# Algae problem.



## Wilksy

I'm 16 days into my new planted tank, spec below:

Aquascaper 600
Oase Thermo 600 set to 25°C
D-D Dosing Pump - dosing 3 x 3ml TNC complete every 8 hrs
In-line CO2 dosing - 2hrs before lights on & off 1hr before lights off
Twinstar 600SA Light - on for 6 hrs per day at 60% 15min ramp up/down
Twinstar M5 on the number two setting./
Seneye Reef

I did 50% water changes every day for the first 14 days and have now reduced that to 50% every other day, I'm using tap water and an Evolution Aqua in-line Dechlorinator Carbon Filter.

I've noticed a small amount of algae forming on the gravel and on the rock, which I remove with a toothbrush etc.

The lily pipe outlet is about 1/3 away from the back of the tank and high enough to have a reasonable ripple effect on the surface without battering the plants.

I would like a bit of advice at this stage on what I can do now rather than have a bigger problem later, I have some ADA Phyton Git on order with AG which hopefully will be with me shortly.

There are no fish or shrimp in the tank yet.

Attached picture taken last night.


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## Wilksy

Right my algae problem is now getting worse and I'm a little perplexed in what to do, the algae is Blue Green now and forms very quickly once removed (every day) last night there was some brown hair like algae in the background which was easily removed with a toothbrush.  I have a feeling the tank is running away from me as I have lost plants that were glued to the rocks namely Bucephalandra.

Any suggestions what I can do? Picture below was taken Wednesday night after water change/cleaning up.


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## Zeus.

Move your DC to the bottom right of tank near the front and see what colour it changes?

If it doesnt change to the same colour as the DC does present you have fluctuating [CO2]

I do think the flow would be better with the lily pipe intake and output at the front right hand corner and not teh back right hand corner, but move the DC first before moving the lily pipes


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## papa_c

Looking at the colour of the drop checker, to my eyes it is blue which indicates more co2 is needed. Can't see any live stock so i would wind the co2 up quite a lot.

I would also drop the temp to about 21c. The higher the temp the harder it is to get co2 into the water column.


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## Wilksy

Thanks for the replies, i've moved the lily pipes (broke the inlet one so have ordered S/S ones) and sited the drop checker lower, it showed that there was not enough CO2 so I have increased the rate, the attached picture shows the drop checker a much greener appearance.

I will tell tonight if any progress has been made.


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## Wilksy

Ok an update on where I am at the moment, the green algae still appears every day and I am now getting a lot of brown algae on the plant leaves and what I can only describe as fine stands or brown algae on the stem plants which is easy to remove with a toothbrush.

I did a Nitrite and Nitrate test and have 0 Nitrite but 20+ Nitrate, I am currently doing 50% water changes every other day but to no avail, how can I bring the Nitrate down there is no livestock in the tank yet.


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## Zeus.

Wilksy said:


> I am currently doing 50% water changes every other day



Have you check your local water suppliers water report ? the 50% WC itself could easily be adding 20ppm NO3


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## Wilksy

Looking at my water company report they state Nitrate at <3.793 mg/l which I don't know how to interoperate as ppm, can you advise please.


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## Zeus.

Wilksy said:


> Nitrate at <3.793 mg/l



So <3.793 ppm NO3

70% WC equates to <2.66 ppm NO3 added in WC


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Wilksy said:


> Looking at my water company report they state Nitrate at <3.793 mg/l


That is interesting, I would have expected the level to be much higher, because of where your are located.

cheers Darrel


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## Wilksy

Attached is the water report from Anglian Water showing what our water is like, it is a hard water but I do have two tanks, one has no algae at all which is an established tank, and the other is my new aquascaper which has the algae problems, both use the same water.


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## Zeus.

Wilksy said:


> Attached is the water report from Anglian Water showing what our water is like, it is a hard water but I do have two tanks, one has no algae at all which is an established tank, and the other is my new aquascaper which has the algae problems, both use the same water.



That water report is a little poor IMO as in the maximum column it has '<' so it doesnt even tell you what the maximum is in a 12 month period  So how do they/you know they haven't exceeded the legal limit


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Zeus. said:


> as in the maximum column it has '<' so it doesnt even tell you what the maximum is in a 12 month period


You are right, there is definitely something quite strange in the report.

On the face of it those aren't sensible results for N: P: or K, and the conductivity is about 770 microS., so there are plenty of salts still present.

My guess is a <"phosphate and nitrate stripper at the water treatment plant">. These are quite unsual in the UK, and I can't imagine why they would supply solely NO3 stripped water, rather than a blended supply. From the Anglian Water link 





> The treated water from the NitreatTM plant typically has a nitrate level concentration of less than 5mg/l as NO3 and when blended with untreated water provides a final water with a nitrate level concentration below 43 mg/l as NO3.


I had a conversation with @Zeus. recently and his water is treated in this way, via an anion exchange resin, just to keep it under the 50mg/L limit.

cheers Darrel


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## Wilksy

Thanks, so in essence what is the Nitrate ppm of my tap water, I really need to get this situation under control.


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## Zeus.

Wilksy said:


> Thanks, so in essence what is the Nitrate ppm of my tap water, I really need to get this situation under control.



<3.793 ppm NO3

So you cam assume that any tap water you add adds a little NO3 - you can work it out or my Fert calculator does the maths for you esp usefully if dong DIY ferts IMO/IME


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## sparkyweasel

Wilksy said:


> Looking at my water company report they state Nitrate at <3.793 mg/l which I don't know how to interoperate as ppm, can you advise please.


mg/ and ppm are effectively the same, so the report says less than 3.793ppm.
Have you tried testing your tapwater?
But as your other tank has no problem, using the same water, I doubt if your tapwater is the cause of the problems in this tank. If it was mine, I would try to get it more established by floating an Indian Fern in it. A bunch of Elodea or Hornwort would also do, according to what's available. Then remove it when it's done its work.


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





sparkyweasel said:


> mg/L and ppm are effectively the same,


They are,  mg/L and ppm are equivalents.

It is because water has a density of "1". This means that one mL (cm3) of water weighs one gram. There are 1000 milligrams in a gram, and 1000g in kilo, and one kilo of  water has a volume 1000 cm3.

Once you know that you can just add up the powers of 10.

You've multiplied by a thousand twice, and a thousand can also be written (in scientific notation) as 1 x 10^3.

You've gone from a gram to a kilogram (1 x 10^3) and then by another thousand from grams to milligrams (1 x 10^3) again, add the powers together and you get 1 x 10^6, which can also be written as 1,000,000 or a million.

Under the same arrangement "micrograms per litre" (μg/L) (which is probably how the trace elements are recorded on your report) is the same as parts ber billion "ppb". In this case you have 1000 μg in a milligram, so another 10^3 and now you have 1 x 10^9 or 1 in 1,000,000,000 or (an American) billion.

cheers Darrel


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## Wilksy

I think I'm loosing the battle, the amount of brown algae is multiplying at an alarming rate plus the green slime is for ever returning the next day.  Most of my plants look awful and last night I noticed that most of the Monte Carlo seems to be floating just above the substrate.

I am still doing 50%+ water changes every other day with a full clean up on a Saturday, my drop checker is much lower in the tank and is a very light green in colour and after a water change the amount of tiny bubbles on the plants (and parts of the tank) is huge.

Did another Nitrite and Nitrate test last night, Nitrite is fine Nitrate is high (as per my last post).  In my other tank, which has no problems, the filter is a Juwel internal one and I have always run that with a carbon filter and a nitrate sponge, I have neither of these in my Oase 600 - I have ordered a set of carbon pre filters from Aquarium Gardens which should arrive shortly and am thinking of making some Nitrate sponges from my stock of Juwel ones.

I am also running my Aquascaper tank at a slightly lower temperature 24°C as opposed to 26/27°C in my Juwel.

I am feeling a little defeated at the moment, this is my first foray into a proper planted tank and it seems like money literally down the drain - help.


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Wilksy said:


> Did another Nitrite and Nitrate test last night, Nitrite is fine Nitrate is high (as per my last post). In my other tank, which has no problems, the filter is a Juwel internal one and I have always run that with a carbon filter and a nitrate sponge, I have neither of these in my Oase 600 - I have ordered a set of carbon pre filters from Aquarium Gardens which should arrive shortly and am thinking of making some Nitrate sponges from my stock of Juwel ones.


I know it is really frustrating, but I'm pretty sure high nitrate isn't your problem. Plants need quite a lot of nitrogen.

Personally I wouldn't base any decisions I made on the results of the nitrate tests. I've done a lot of water testing (in a lab. situation) and NO3- testing can be <"problematic, even in a lab">. 

I'll cc in @jaypeecee because we have recently had a conversation, about a scientific paper, which looked at the accuracy of decision making in commercial aquaculture based on test kit results. 

<"There are other approaches">. I use one where I assess plant health and nutrient status based on the health and colour of a floating plant, I called it the <"Duckweed Index">. 

The advantage of a floating plant (I now use <"Amazon Frogbit (_Limnobium laevigatum_)"> as my "Duckweed") is that:

it doesn't get algae on its leaves, 
it isn't CO2 limited 
and it gets first dibs on the light.
So any <"deficiencies in growth"> will relate to nutrient levels in the aquarium water. 

cheers Darrel


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## Fiske

From my experience with an Oase 600 in an Aquascaper 600: Get more flow. Use a powerhead like eg. Aquaclear 20, which is cheap and adjustable. And since you don't have livestock yet, aim for a nice bright yellow in those dropcheckers. 

Btw the brown algae are likely diatoms, completely normal in a new tank. It will go away. 

I use a Twinstar 600S, not SA; if it's more powerful than S you have all the light you need for now... 

Don't worry about nitrates. I live in a rural area, with hard water, and nitrates up the wazoo. Whatever problem you have, that's not it. 

Did you seed the filter with a bit of gunk from the filter in your old tank?


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## Conort2

Try not to worry to much about the nitrates. If I was you I’d get some floating plants and some really fast growing weeds to compete with the algae. 

Get some hygrophila polysperma or difformis and then some amazon frogbit. The tank Is very new so the plants will need some time to settle down and compete against the algae. Some of your plants are growing as you can see the height difference in the rotala at the back, It just needs a bit more time. 

cheers

Conor


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## Wilksy

Thanks for the replies, with regard to flow i have changed the glass lily pipe set to a Blau steel set, the flow around the tank certainly seems energetic and I have the skimmer part of it flying round like a water wheel, I would prefer not to spoil the tank aesthetics with to much "stuff" in the tank.

With regard to the hygrophila polysperma how could I plant that as I have no real room in the substrate, is it OK to leave it in its pot for this purpose, also with the floating plants won't they be hurled around the top of the tank due to the flow which is fairly vigorous.


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Wilksy said:


> also with the floating plants won't they be hurled around the top of the tank due to the flow which is fairly vigorous


If you really have a lot of surface flow they won't enjoy themselves. If they go around in circles it is fine, if they all end up rammed against the glass then it won't work.

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee

Wilksy said:


> ...dosing 3 x 3ml TNC complete every 8 hrs



Hi @Wilksy 

Is this based on the recommended dose on the TNC _Complete_ bottle?

I won't add any more comments about the water company report. I think @Zeus. and @dw1305 have said what needs to be said.

JPC


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## Wilksy

No the dose recommendation on the bottle is less than what I am dosing, it was recommended by Aquarium Gardens, I can dose whatever is needed as its fully automatic


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## jaypeecee

Wilksy said:


> No the dose recommendation on the bottle is less than what I am dosing, it was recommended by Aquarium Gardens, I can dose whatever is needed as its fully automatic





Wilksy said:


> I am feeling a little defeated at the moment, this is my first foray into a proper planted tank and it seems like money literally down the drain - help.



Hi @Wilksy

Have you contacted _Aquarium Gardens_ to inform them of the predicament that you now find yourself in? If they recommended the ferts dosing regime, perhaps they made an error calculating the dosage? A lot of light and too much plant nutrients in the water with plants that are not yet established may explain the algae that you are currently seeing - in my opinion.

JPC


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen

The standard low-tech dosage for TNC Complete is 1ml per 10 litres, once per week. Your tank is about 100 litres, so that dose would be 10ml.

TNC say you can triple that dose for an approximation to EI, which would put you at 30ml. This is the rate I was using, until I worked out the nutrient content and realised that it actually puts you at the generous end of EI for nitrate, but at a somewhat lean EI for phosphate and potassium. I therefore switched to a “double-triple” dose, and saw an improvement in growth.

But the “double-triple” dose makes it rather over-generous on nitrate, which isn’t necessarily a problem except some red plants won’t go as red.

I’m assuming you’re dosing 9ml per day; is that correct? If so, that means you’re dosing the “double-triple” dose. This should be fine. Slightly richer on nitrates than strictly necessary (and accounts for your 20ppm nitrate reading, which is also fine), but it won’t be the cause of your algae.

I’ve actually since switched to DIY salts, which allows me to go slightly leaner on nitrate while keeping phosphate and potassium at the top end of EI range. I’m trying to make my _Rotala walichii_ go pinker!

By the way, at some point I do recommend switching to DIY salts. TNC Complete is good, but it’ll start getting expensive if you’re using the “double-triple” dose.


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## Wilksy

I have tried to ring them numerous times but without any success, do you think I may be dosing to heavily I got plenty of plant growth but also plenty of algae growth as well.

I would also like to know what I can do with my Monte Carlo as it seems to be growing well but not attached to the substrate anymore.

Yes I am dosing 9ml per day in my other tank I dose 3ml per day this too is 100L I'm open to any suggestions as it gets very depressing cleaning off all the green and brown algae only to see it all back the next day.

I've ordered the floating plants as suggested, these will be with me today so will get introduced tonight after I've done today's 50% water change.

I do have access to unlimited RO water which I used to use in my other tank but did find it a bit a faff bringing home, I then went to a 50-50 of tapwater and RO water so perhaps I should go to RO mix in my Aquascaper.


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## jaypeecee

Wilksy said:


> I have tried to ring them numerous times but without any success, do you think I may be dosing to heavily I got plenty of plant growth but also plenty of algae growth as well.



Hi @Wilksy 

In order for the algae to grow, it/they need nutrients - obviously. Therefore, yes, you appear to be dosing too heavily.

I'd email _Aquarium Gardens_ in the hope that someone will read your email when they get a moment to do so.

JPC


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen

The “double-triple” dose of TNC Complete is giving:

40ppm nitrate (EI recommends up to 30)
3.7ppm phosphate (EI recommends up to 3)
30ppm potassium (EI recommends up to 30)

So the nitrate and phosphate are a little higher than the upper level of EI. Potassium is bang-on the upper level.

When I set up my nano tank recently, I dosed the manufacturer-recommended triple dose of TNC Complete initially, but after a number of weeks I felt that growth was a little poor. I had heard of AG’s recommendation of the “double-triple” dose, and worked out what that would give in terms of ppm per week. I switched to that regime for 2-3 weeks and I believe growth improved. I certainly didn’t get any algae as a result of this.

So you could do something similar yourself, maybe try a couple of weeks on the normal “triple” dose and see how things go. Maybe your plants are not yet grown-in enough to outcompete the algae; hopefully the floating plants will help.


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## Wilksy

So last night was the every other day water change and clean out, the fist picture shows the amount of algae that had grown in basically 48 hrs.  We removed as much as we could, replanted the Monte Carlo, planted the hygrophila polysperma and floated the amazon frogbit along with a 80% water change.
The additional pictures show the tank after the clean up, the drop counter is blue as it was above water level for some time and the co2 turns off at 19:30 as lights out is 20:30.

I will take a picture tonight and post up the algagrowth in a 24hr period


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## Sammy Islam

Aquarium gardens have always recommended using "TNC complete" with the dosing instructions of the "aquascaper complete"...... 5ml tnc complete per 50L of water daily. So for you 10ml a day. (60ml a week if you don't dose on water change day)

From previous use of TNC complete using rotala butterfly is great to figure out whats in the dose, 70ml per week would give you:


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen

And you may find it useful to convert the above figures to nitrate (NO₃) and phosphate (PO₄).

You need to multiply the N figure by 4.4 to give 46.5ppm of NO₃
And multiply the P figure by about 3 to give 4.3ppm of PO₄


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## JoshP12

Hi all,

I found this data (as I have never used that light):
*Twinstar 600S - PAR readings*
Hi all,

Just tested my Twinstar 600S using an Apogee MQ-510 on my 60-P. I was going to make a fancy chart, but the density of plants in my tank aren't ideal for consistent depth measurements... so this is what I can give you.

The fixture has fixed legs, meaning the minimum distance to water is 4". _All measurements are from the bottom of the LED array to the top of the submerged sensor._

*100% power, 0" from fixture's midline:*

4" depth: 300PAR
10" depth: 160PAR
15" depth: 125PAR

*100% power, 5.5" from fixture's midline (ie- front edge of tank):*

4" depth: 70PAR
10" depth: 150PAR
15" depth: 125PAR

Dimming power resulted in a linear reduction in PAR across the board... so at half power, PAR was reduced by 50%, etc.

That is for the S series; I read that the intensities are the same -- perhaps someone with both lights can chime in, but I can't imagine they are that different. 

You are at 60%, so you are likely at least 75 ish PAR at substrate (since the AS600 is 320 mm high)... reducing it down to 50% will take you to 62 ish, then 40 down to probably 50. 

It may be an idea to reduce the light - just don't go too far (the plants still need the light - I have made this mistake). 

Josh


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## Sammy Islam

Dr Mike Oxgreen said:


> And you may find it useful to convert the above figures to nitrate (NO₃) and phosphate (PO₄).
> 
> You need to multiply the N figure by 4.4 to give 46.5ppm of NO₃
> And multiply the P figure by about 3 to give 4.3ppm of PO₄



Wow that does work out to be a lot!


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## Wilksy

Explains why the Nitrate test is high, I'm using 63ml per week as I dose 9ml everyday including water change days which is currently at 4 per week.


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## jaypeecee

Hi @Wilksy


jaypeecee said:


> Therefore, yes, you appear to be dosing too heavily.



Thanks to @Plants234 and @Dr Mike Oxgreen and @Sammy Islam for confirming that my hunch was correct. 

Did you get a reply from _Aquarium Gardens_?

JPC


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen

I’m not sure that we’ve determined that it’s *too* heavy, only that it’s higher than EI. And EI is very approximate anyway.

It has been shown beyond reasonable doubt that high nutrients are not, on their own, a cause of algae.

I dosed AG’s suggested “double-triple” dose for several weeks, and had no algae at all. In fact, now that I’ve switched to DIY salts with a leaner nitrate level I have now got tiny, tiny areas of BGA. I’m hoping this is just a temporary reaction as things adjust to the change, but it just shows that it’s far too simplistic to say that excess nutrients cause algae.


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen

If I were you, @Wilksy, I’d be tempted to really crank up that CO₂ - you’ve got no creatures to worry about yet, right?

Assuming no creatures, I’d get that drop checker yellow!

Your plants are not nutrient-limited. And your light is, I think, reasonable at this stage of the tank’s maturity. Which leaves the question of CO₂, and I’m not sure we’ve properly established that the level and distribution of CO₂ is good.

As far as I know, excess CO₂ will never cause a problem with plants or algae; it’s only a problem to creatures. So I’d crank it up, to ensure that your plants aren’t CO₂ limited. Let’s get those plants growing properly, and then they can start to outcompete the algae. Later you can gradually reduce the CO₂ down to a creature-safe level.

If you feel it necessary, you certainly can reduce your nutrient dosage a bit, but I really don’t think this is the cause of your problem. I wouldn’t cut it too much though. The manufacturer’s recommendation of a triple dose (30ml per week for your tank) is, in my opinion, rather too lean for a heavily planted tank. I can totally see why AG suggest doubling that, although it results in slightly over-generous nitrate and phosphate. A cynic might think that they’re trying to sell more product!


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## Wilksy

Right the problem is still exactly the same, green slime after less than 24hrs and brown algae after pretty much the same period after a clean and water change.  I getting seriously fed up with this now, I have turned up the CO2, added loads of floating plants (growing like mad) and still do 3 x 50%+ water changes per week yet nothing changes, the plants still look awful after a day and the green slime still covers the substrate etc.

What can I do, I really want to move some livestock in but I just don't want to do it whilst I have the algae problem, I'm now going to use RO water totally and add Aquavitro Mineralize, I have unlimited access to free RO so cost isn't an issue.

I need help, which I'm sure my good lady would say anyway


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## castle

I'm suffering from this too in *my puffer tank** -* i noticed I'd done a few things differently which really triggered the explosion of algae, much like you I'm doing 50% water changes daily. 


I removed 75% of my floaters as they were covering the tank - as soon as I did this, within a few days I started noticing thicker algae. Diatoms are rife.  Won't be doing that again. 
Additionally, I moved a puffer into the tank, he decimated the snail population in days, lots of small decaying snails left in the tank. 
I also moved from Tropica Specialised to TNC Complete - unsure if that really has made a difference though. 
There is something not right, as new growth in the Rotala has stunted, reading about this at the moment. 

So, it's a slow road to recovery for me. I put back the floaters - but now, the algae is on their roots - and I've added a pot of limnophila sessiliflora, and I've blocked the tank from sunlight using cardboard. Lights are also reduced to 70%. I can't say for sure if I'm seeing improvement, but detritus in tank is at all time low. 

Sadly, increasing flow isn't an option as the puffer will be unhapy.


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## Nick72

I would start by cutting back on the water changes.

Physically removing as much algae as possible is a good idea, but to eventually beat the algae you need to have a healthy plant mass that is growing and out competing the algae.

Too achieve this you need to have constant conditions with good light, high CO2, and high nutrients.

You've design a tank with only moderate plant mass which is always going to make balancing a little harder.

Every time you do a water change you mess with the nutrients and the water composition changes.

The algae is better adapted to thrive when the tank goes out of balance, the plants need longer to try to adjust to the new environment, which again gives the algae the upper hand.

I would stick to one large (50-70%) water change per week.

Do the water change at night when the lights are off for the least disruption to photo period.

This is also the time to remove algae and any decaying plant matter.

I would also take your lights down to 50% until your plant mass has increased and the algae has gone.

I suspect your all in one fertilisers is also leaving you light on pretty much everything.

All the light and CO2 will just grow algae until you get the NPK+Ca+Mg+S in balance.

Ultimately I would also suggest moving to DIY fertilisers.


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## castle

I think you're replying to me @Nick72

While this may be the worst algae outbreak I've ever had, I'm still of the school that there are not such thing as too many water changes, but I relent and I'm down to 50% every other day. CO2 isn't an option for me, and don't use easy carbo either.

I've reduced lights further, now at 60% - and I've cut out some cardboard to protect the tank from the 7pm sun. I will be keeping this up now, sadly, outside of viewing hours anyway.
I don't think the plant mass is that light, I don't have any hardscape and 60% of the total floor volume has plants - but I'm no expert. I'll continue fertalising the tank, around 1.2ml a day. I have very hard water, I wonder if this is another issue. I'd like to order some more plants anyway (Lutea hobbit and Lagenandra meeboldii 'Green').

The Rotala was always a gamble for me, I've had no success with stems apart from p.Gayi and I'm okay with that. But I will give this a few more months before I throw in the towel and take out the Rotala. I won't change the lighting or ferts, or water changes now for a month. I'll see what happens  I consider it a test, fail me once: okay my fault, fail me twice: we may not be a match, fail me 3 times: get out of the tank. 

The crypts are all putting out new leaves, so it can't be all bad in there...


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## Nick72

castle said:


> I think you're replying to me @Nick72
> 
> ......
> I don't think the plant mass is that light, I don't have any hardscape and 60% of the total floor volume has plants - but I'm no expert.





No I was talking to the OP.

I haven't seen your setup, so could not comment on your plant mass.


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## Wilksy

Nick, I thought I had quite a high plant mass in my tank, there is very little room for anything else as I wish to keep a plant free area to the right.  Plant growth is not an issue, what is is the continuous growth of green and brown algae, I fear if I don't do any water changes it will  amplify the problem.  In terms of plant growth the floating plants have nearly quadrupled in less than 4 weeks as I am now having to remove some every couple of days.

Attached picture of latest growth, this was taken on Saturday after a thorough clean up of algae, I have replaced the  Monte Carlo as it would not stay rooted to the substrate.


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## Nick72

Wilsky, Its a very nice tank, but I would call it moderately planted as you have a bit of hardscape, an empty area to the right, and a low grass area (not a huge plant volume).

Less volume consumes less nutrients leaving some available for algae. 

The issue is then if you lower the overall level of nutrients the plant mass you have then becomes nutrient limited for growth.

The simplest, but not only solution, is to add more plant mass.

I understand that would conflict with your overall design, I'm just saying that it's one of the reasons you are likely to have algae issues.  Your tank has a smaller optimal window than one with a larger plant mass.

As to the water changes, it is entirely your decision. I firmly believe that every water change slightly interrupts the plants and creates a small window for  algae.

Of course there are many reasons why periodic water changes are required.

I am just off the view that anything more than once a week is too many.  Once a week is fairly arbitrary, I suspect once every 10 days may be better - but that's another thread and I do a weekly water change myself.

I'm pleased to see your floating plants doing so well.  They are an excellent idea and will go along way to improving the water quality.

Please feel free to follow or ignore any of my advise.  It's your tank and you should do what you think best.


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## Wilksy

Thanks for your reply Nick, doing huge water changes every other day seems to be the answer that most people give, I'm happy to go with whatever is best, my thoughts at the moment are i'm adding too much TNC Complete which is giving me a high nitrate reading, tonight I shall be doing a 60% water change with RO water only, its really annoying as my other tank has no algae at all, has less plants and only gets 3ml of TNC a day, it has never had any real algae issues and is much less high tech than this one.

I'm desperate to have livestock but just can't face adding anything until I have the upper hand.


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## Nick72

I would advise only changing one parameter at a time.

If you choose to lower the lights to 40%, and that would be my suggestion, then keep adding the same amount of TNC - at least for a couple of weeks to see if the reduced light intensity works.

You can always reduce the TNC later and see if that has a different effect (although I would not advise it as I suspect you are running lean already).

If you change two parameters at once it's much harder to know which one caused any possible change of outcome.

Best of luck.  Do report back when you have tried something.


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## Wilksy

Ok update time as we are over a month since the last report, I'm still suffering green slime even after less than one day from a clean up, I still have no live stock in the tank and I'm still removing heaps of brown muck from the plants and I still can't seem to get the carpet grass to root properly.  I'm starting to get quite stressed out with this, it seems that everything I do makes no difference at all, the floating plants are growing like mad, the plants certainly seem to be growing although I've yet to need to trim any of them.

I reduced the like to 40% and reduced the plant feed by 3ml/day to 6ml/day., water changes are no weekly with RO water plus minerilze  and I remove as much of the green slime and brown slime with a variety of methods, the best one is a piece of 10mm glass tubing with fired ends and using it like a pipette - using this means I can get the green or brown muck off each leave if I decide to although this is massively time consuming.

My good lady is getting fed up with the general unhappiness I feel with this tank, I really don't know what else to do, as usual my other tank continuous to be algae free with almost no tech involved.

Any ideas, suggestions or even professional help with a physical visit (from July 4th of course)


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## Nick72

@Wilksy

I do feel for you, and there is nothing worse than when the wife gets on your back about the amount of time and energy you are "wasting" on the hobbie.

When we last spoke you were going to try to change only one parameter, the lights - it's all to easy to get lost in multiple changes, and it sounds like you've lowered the lights, lowered the ferts, and started blending in RO water.

Is Cyanobacteria (Blue/Green Slime Algae) the biggest issue?

If so, I think it's time you tried:

https://www.ultralife.com/product/blue-green-slime-stain-remover/

I've not used it, but I've read and watched countless reviews where it gets great results.


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## JoshP12

Wilksy said:


> Ok update time as we are over a month since the last report, I'm still suffering green slime even after less than one day from a clean up, I still have no live stock in the tank and I'm still removing heaps of brown muck from the plants and I still can't seem to get the carpet grass to root properly.  I'm starting to get quite stressed out with this, it seems that everything I do makes no difference at all, the floating plants are growing like mad, the plants certainly seem to be growing although I've yet to need to trim any of them.
> 
> I reduced the like to 40% and reduced the plant feed by 3ml/day to 6ml/day., water changes are no weekly with RO water plus minerilze  and I remove as much of the green slime and brown slime with a variety of methods, the best one is a piece of 10mm glass tubing with fired ends and using it like a pipette - using this means I can get the green or brown muck off each leave if I decide to although this is massively time consuming.
> 
> My good lady is getting fed up with the general unhappiness I feel with this tank, I really don't know what else to do, as usual my other tank continuous to be algae free with almost no tech involved.
> 
> Any ideas, suggestions or even professional help with a physical visit (from July 4th of course)



Hi Wilsky,

I just wanted to weigh in and share some thoughts. The first is being super stressed when you do not know what induced the issues you are having is normal. My wife also has also said that she will throw out my tank and at times, I have wanted to throw it out - but for some reason we keep trekking. I get it.

Cleaning like nutso crazy not knowing if it will help - I get it.
Reading hundreds of conflicting arguments - I get it.

So you are not alone on these emotions. I hope someone can do a physical visit for you and coach you - as I would pay big money to be coached through the process and have my learning scaffolded instead of trial and error with no understanding of what is happening.

Now for the advice that I will give (and it is more some conceptualizations that I have made);

Lights - on off high low - whatever. The important part of lights it that plants need light to grow - we need to hit the minimal amount - MINIMUM for them. Often, we reduce lights under this pretence that they cause algae. If that was the case, then how come glass algae (GDA, Diatoms, GSA, even BBA), ALWAYS shows up in the bottom first. If we adopt the idea that ferts do not cause algae, then the argument will be poor flow. I can tell you, I do not have poor flow at the substrate, equipped with a spray bar, and even if I did - the PAR at the top of my 24inch tank is WAY higher than that at the bottom - so what does light do?

Light gives energy to the system - so the suggestion to reduce the light is so that you can clean daily and it feels "faster" than if you had higher light. In other words, you can catch up to the system in hopes of stabilizing it.

PS light also increases the nutrient demand of everything. So with lower light, you don't need as many fertilizer either. People dose EI to not have to worry about if they need to look for tell-tale signs of deficiencies.

I recently < realized > that each plant even in the same area is going to have a different "set up" internally ... In those photos that I attached, you can see the change in the make up in real time. Why I am sharing this is so that you can predict what happened next. Those "dead" leaves are spawning grounds for algae.

So the rebuttal to reducing your nutrient will be that the plants need to be healthy - so if you reduce your feed, then you MAY have unhealthy growth - perpetuating the algae issues. However, the less nutrients in the WC, the less opportunity algae has to eat - compound with a slower moving system with low light and you will have an algae-free system -- This is where those ideologies come from.

Increase the light and everything grows faster - plants use more nutrients - algae spores bloom faster. So in some ways increasing the light is a good idea if you have maximum CO2 and maximum ferts - I mean you are only going to allow everything to grow better and combat algae quicker - remove the dead stuff and your results come quicker <-- I still don't necessarily suggest it because I haven't done it. 

If you have no livestock, you can blast that CO2 HIGH - HOWEVER, you will need to reduce this to a "safe" range over months or you will see carbon related deficiencies after you reduce it.

If you limit your nutrients right down, you can limit your CO2 uptake (no clue how - but I am in the process of trying to learn this).

The other suggestion will be start again, scrap the tank, and restart with all of your new knowledge. It's great if we have infinite money and time.

If you want to salvage your tank, you need
1) get CO2 + flow to the optimal level (which it looks like you have)
2) keep your fertilizer consistent
3) you can reduce your lights to slow down the system but then it means the plants will grow slower, so you won't know if they are healthy -- use your floaters as an indicator - though they are a pain for the following:
4) Clean -- I salvaged my < disaster tank + this > by doing the above and cleaning. At some point you get to stop cleaning - I stuck my arm in last week maybe 3 times (aside from leaves that floated up). Now, that includes removing all dead matter - flushing the filter. You can add purigen if you want to help remove organics - but it is not a solution ... it slows down how much work you need to do.

@Nick72 suggestion of 1 thing at a time means that this will not fix overnight and THAT is the hardest part - especially when you don't know if what you are doing is working.

It is very easy for me to say do at least 70% water changes daily with intense scrubbing and cleaning and you will stabilize the tank. But it will take some months of consistency and doing it is a pain. But I am telling you - it will work ... because while you provide a healthy environment for the plants to grow, you remove EVERYTHING that messes with them ... it's like being a "snow-plough parent"  lol ... compound that with some learning skills (CO2 + ferts + lights) and voila!

Tanks that are photoready all the time require cleaning and maintenance.

I remember watching this video: 

I was thinking - he has algaes - You can see them (why doesn't he care I kept thinking!) ... but he just doesn't care and I think the root is that he knows that if he didn't want algae, he would know what to do - and that is the key. People who know how to obtain algae-free know why it got there and do not stress about it - because they know what they did wrong to induce it.

All this to say, I just wanted to share .

If that is Green slime, then you need to remove it @jaypeecee can weigh on green slime - I have used UltraLife Chemiclean before long ago and it worked. But ultimately, it will require cleaning - all the while the plants are going to suffer through all of this and we hope that you are able to salve a few healthy ones to restart and bloom your entire vegetative beautiful landscape.

Josh


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## Wilksy

Hi Nick, I lowered the lighting as you suggested and I was already using RO water (I have an endless supply at no cost) the ferts was an addition as I just felt I was putting too much in.  All me other parameters have stayed the same.  The blue/green is the real problem it just comes back so quickly, I think the brown is weaning now.

I do have some of the remover but have been reluctant to use it as its not a cure, just a temporary fix, but now may well be the time.


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## Nick72

Wilksy said:


> Hi Nick, I lowered the lighting as you suggested and I was already using RO water (I have an endless supply at no cost) the ferts was an addition as I just felt I was putting too much in.  All me other parameters have stayed the same.  The blue/green is the real problem it just comes back so quickly, I think the brown is weaning now.
> 
> I do have some of the remover but have been reluctant to use it as its not a cure, just a temporary fix, but now may well be the time.




I think Josh made some good points in his post above, and I would prefer to understand and treat the imbalance than mop it up with chemicals.

At the same time if the chemicals are known to be reasonably safe, and if balance is proving elusive, then perhaps it's time.

You may find your close enough to balance that the Cyanobacteria won't come back - just won't go away without a push.

If not, it might give you a break for a couple of weeks and allow you to approach the problem with a fresh head.


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## jaypeecee

Hi @Wilksy 

Whichever approach you take in eradicating Cyanobacteria (aka BGA) is obviously your choice entirely. But, I would recommend getting some ammunition under your belt first. And, for me, that meant reading about it to find out what makes cyano tick. I don't know if you've seen the following thread in which I explain how I eradicated cyano from one of my tanks:

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/cyanobacteria-identification-at-last.60496/

Please take a look at this thread and, if you have any questions, just ask.

JPC


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## Wilksy

Quick update and a question, I have no resorted to Blue Exit currently on day 5 and nothing has changed still loads of BGA on the Blue Exit instructions it said to remove all absorbents ie Carbon which I have done, does it also mean all types of sponge products as I have a pre filter and one other in my Oase Bio.


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## hypnogogia

No, it just refers to chemical filtration, such as carbon.  Basically anything that might remove the blue exit.


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## Wilksy

Cheers, how long should it take before the BGA starts to go away


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## jaypeecee

Hi @Wilksy


Wilksy said:


> Cheers, how long should it take before the BGA starts to go away



I think you may find it useful to read another thread on the subject of cyano/BGA and this is it:

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/do-i-have-bga.61152/page-7#post-605754

You'll be able to see the process that @Ruskie went through. Unfortunately, _Blue Exit_ wasn't a success for @Ruskie. It was necessary to resort to an alternative treatment.

Do you have a recent photo of your tank so that I can see how bad the cyano/BGA is?

JPC


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## Wilksy

Update time I think, I have attached 3 pictures of where I am currently at, the Blue/Green has gone as have the brown muck.  I initially used Blue/Green Exit which worked up to a point, I then purchased via Amazon some Ultralife which made a massive difference.  Looking at the link I was sent I also bought a UV Steriliser and I have no issues with the Blue/Green at the moment...............However,

I now seem to have a problem with another algae which is like a pond type, its green and attaches to the plants etc as shown in the attached pictures, could someone please give me yet more advise on how to stop this, I am losing the will to live!!

The first picture is of the tank cleaned on my normal weekly clean, 50% water change, pipes cleaned, plants trimmed etc, the other two pictures are the same tank 6 days later, most of it comes off easily enough but it just comes back so quickly.


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## jaypeecee

Hi @Wilksy 

In my opinion, you still have cyano (aka BGA) in your tank. It is evident on the rocks and where the rocks meet the substrate. In other words, it also appears to be on the substrate - particularly near the rocks. It looks just like the stuff that I'm purposely growing in a tank at the moment. I also see what looks like a lot of hair algae. Both the BGA and hair algae suggest a surplus of nutrients (ferts) in the water column plus an excess amount of light. BTW, I see a DC on the LHS of the tank but it's difficult to see what colour it's showing. Are you injecting CO2? Or, are you using a form of liquid carbon?

JPC


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## Wilksy

Thanks for your reply, I am injecting CO2 colour is a very light green, I can drop the nutrients down and lower the light however I’m only at 60% on the light, this tank has been causing me issues for nearly 6 months now and I really getting cheesed off with it.

I will lower the nutrients and see how that goes, but this hair algae had only appeared about two weeks ago.


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## jaypeecee

Hi @Wilksy

I was just looking at the following from @Dr Mike Oxgreen :


Dr Mike Oxgreen said:


> The “double-triple” dose of TNC Complete is giving:
> 
> 40ppm nitrate (EI recommends up to 30)
> 3.7ppm phosphate (EI recommends up to 3)
> 30ppm potassium (EI recommends up to 30)
> 
> So the nitrate and phosphate are a little higher than the upper level of EI. Potassium is bang-on the upper level.



I have never used the EI method in any of my tanks. But, I'm shocked to see that EI recommends up to 3 ppm for phosphate. In my non-EI tanks, I would be aiming for up to 30 ppm nitrate and up to 20 ppm potassium. I would limit phosphate to, perhaps, 0.4 ppm. And I would monitor this using the JBL phosphate (PO4) test kit. What is odd to me is that I would be aiming for similar figures for nitrate and potassium but only _one tenth_ of the phosphate level. Rightly or wrongly, I associate high phosphate with increased likelihood of algae growth.

JPC


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## jaypeecee

Hi @Wilksy 

Both algae and cyano/BGA take up iron from the water column. Do you know what the iron concentration is likely to be based on your dose of _TNC Complete_? And, please remind me which lighting system you have.

JPC


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen

jaypeecee said:


> I have never used the EI method in any of my tanks. But, I'm shocked to see that EI recommends up to 3 ppm for phosphate. In my non-EI tanks, I would be aiming for up to 30 ppm nitrate and up to 20 ppm potassium. I would limit phosphate to, perhaps, 0.4 ppm. And I would monitor this using the JBL phosphate (PO4) test kit. What is odd to me is that I would be aiming for similar figures for nitrate and potassium but only _one tenth_ of the phosphate level. Rightly or wrongly, I associate high phosphate with increased likelihood of algae growth.


Remember that the EI recommended levels are _dosages_, not target values for the water column. The plants should be sucking up a good proportion of the dosage that you add, so the water column probably won’t reach 3 ppm. And normal practice is to add the dosage in three chunks throughout the week, so at no point should your water column reach the EI dosage level. Last time I measured, I think I had a PO₄ level of around 1.5 ppm in the water column, despite dosing 3 ppm per week.

And of course the weekly 50% water change keeps a lid on any unused fertiliser dosage (as well as, perhaps more importantly, removing dissolved organics).

As it happens I think I’ve reduced my PO₄ dosage to 2 ppm per week since then, and I haven’t recently done a PO₄ test. I’ll try to remember to do one tomorrow. The reduced PO₄ dosage is part of my ongoing investigation to see if BGA is affected by the NO₃ / PO₄ ratio, so currently I’m dosing 10 ppm per week of NO₃ and 2 ppm per week of PO₄. I was half expecting this to bring back my small amounts of BGA, but so far nothing!


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## jaypeecee

Hi @Dr Mike Oxgreen 

Fair point. I interpreted the figures as target levels. Will be interested to know what your PO₄ test reveals. I'm pleased to hear that your experiment to see if BGA is affected by the NO₃ / PO₄ ratio is still continuing. My experiments also continue in trying to keep cyano at bay. I've very recently discovered a scientific paper with a proposed method for dealing with this. So, I've set up a tank in which I'm purposely growing Oscillatoria. It's only been going for a few days but the blue-green menace is growing nicely. Another ten days and I should have a result.

JPC


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## Wilksy

The light unit is a  Twinstar 600SA Light with controller coming on for 6hrs a day at 60%, I don't know what the iron content is but I have reduced the TNC complete to 3ml/day as of this morning (its automatically dosed).  I will be away for two weeks shortly so should I drop the light intensity down so I don't come back to a green nightmare.

I really need to get this sorted out as my good lady is getting fed up with my stress levels in trying to get this right, I've had fish tanks for years and have never experienced algae like this before - the really annoying thing is this is the most money I've ever spent on a tank yet its the one thats giving me a nightmare.


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## john dory

I'm running my 900s at 50% for 6 hours a day with a 30 min ramp up/down..and an hour"sunset"
Am using co2..but nowhere near 30ppm.
Standard dose of tnc complete.
All easy plants
Algae free and low maintenance.


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## Wilksy

John did you mean 30ppm of TNC complete if not how do you measure the amount of co2 being injected


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## john dory

No,I meant 30ppm of co2.
You can use the drop checker and/or a ph profile to determine how much co2 you have in the tank.


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## jaypeecee

Hi @Wilksy


Wilksy said:


> I really need to get this sorted out as my good lady is getting fed up with my stress levels in trying to get this right, I've had fish tanks for years and have never experienced algae like this before - the really annoying thing is this is the most money I've ever spent on a tank yet its the one thats giving me a nightmare.



I really feel for you. Unfortunately, the situation that you find yourself in is all too common. The combination of water, CO2, lots of light and lots of fertilizers needs very careful management. It's the difference between so-called 'low tech' and 'high tech'. How about starting afresh following your two weeks away? That's what I'd be tempted to do. Others may have alternative suggestions.

Try to remain positive!

JPC


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## john dory

There was a good journal on here,a few years ago,by a member called pinkmummylady.
This may be of use to the op.

Maybe someone(more tech savvy)could provide a link.


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





john dory said:


> pinkmummylady


@Pinkmummy79  , I remembered they were from Weston-Super-Mare, and found them that way.

This  thread? <"Leaving Hobby or moving to .....">.

cheers Darrel


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## john dory

Yes,that's the one


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## Wilksy

Update, I came back from just over two weeks away to a tank that was not too bad, there was a growth of green hair algae emanating in the direction of flow but nothing overly bad.

So I clean the algae up, do a water change and then I get brown algae on all the plants, this comes off very easily with either a waft of the hand or using long bamboo skewer type sticks to wrap it around.

Unfortunately it keeps coming back day after day, which I a real pain as the tank is nice apart from this - plants are growing well, no algae on the glass or items inside the tank just this brown stuff that just returns day after day.  

Any ideas will be gratefully received


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## Ags11

Have you measured the Nitrate level in your your tap water?


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## Wilksy

I use RO water exclusively and add mineralize


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## Wilksy

Thought its about time I updated my algae issues I was having which almost made me give up, but I persevered and no have no algae at all which is such a relief after months of problems.  So what did I end up with and I must state that I have no idea which of the changes I made sorted it out all I can say is that something did.

The lighting is now on 55% and on for 7 hrs a day
I have installed a UV light system into the return to tank feed
I cut the TNC Total to 3ml per day dosed in 1ml segment's during the course of a 24hr period
I do a quick clean and 50% water change every Tuesday, and a longer clean a plant trim plus another 50% water change every Friday
I have a breeding colony of Cherry Shrimps - bought 20 now have god now's how many
I dose the tank every clean with 10 drops of Phyton Git 

The plant growth is fantastic, the moss that looked like a bad case of algae is now flourishing and covering most of the wood, and I'm letting it cover some of the lower edges of the rocks.

The Elecharis Mini is totally covered the desired area, the Java Fern has great growth as does all the Bucephalandra
So basically I didnt give in and all is now well


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## DTM61

Congratulations! Any pics?


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## jaypeecee

Hi @Wilksy 

I'm delighted for you!



Wilksy said:


> I have installed a UV light system into the return to tank feed


Out of interest, why did you install the UV system in the return feed?

I also use UV-C sterilizers on a couple of my tanks. Dependent on what I am trying to achieve by using them, I switch them ON or OFF, as required. It is likely that your UV-C sterilizers eliminated some of the algae by killing the algae spores.

JPC


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## Soilwork

Wilksy said:


> Thought its about time I updated my algae issues I was having which almost made me give up, but I persevered and no have no algae at all which is such a relief after months of problems.  So what did I end up with and I must state that I have no idea which of the changes I made sorted it out all I can say is that something did.
> 
> The lighting is now on 55% and on for 7 hrs a day
> I have installed a UV light system into the return to tank feed
> I cut the TNC Total to 3ml per day dosed in 1ml segment's during the course of a 24hr period
> I do a quick clean and 50% water change every Tuesday, and a longer clean a plant trim plus another 50% water change every Friday
> I have a breeding colony of Cherry Shrimps - bought 20 now have god now's how many
> I dose the tank every clean with 10 drops of Phyton Git
> 
> The plant growth is fantastic, the moss that looked like a bad case of algae is now flourishing and covering most of the wood, and I'm letting it cover some of the lower edges of the rocks.
> 
> The Elecharis Mini is totally covered the desired area, the Java Fern has great growth as does all the Bucephalandra
> So basically I didnt give in and all is now well


Is it possible that you waited long enough for the new sterile aquarium to establish a flourishing suite of necessary microorganisms and that is why the balance has now tipped in favour of the higher plant/microbe system and less in favour of algae?

I see and experience the same issues with excruciating regularity when I set up a completely sterile tank regardless of whether it is high energy or low energy.  In fact I would truly question whether anyone has set up a completely new sterile tank and not had any issues with algae at all.  The more I see these posts and issues regarding algae in new tanks the more I’m convinced the only true ‘cure’ for persistent algae is time.

I’m glad you are finally winning the battle.


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## Karmicnull

Wilksy said:


> I have a breeding colony of Cherry Shrimps - bought 20 now have god now's how many


I have a small (12) low tech tank with plenty of algae in it - it was being overrun by brown diatoms.  I moved some Cherrys into it and the brown diatoms went pretty much overnight.  So I reckon they are definitely part of the solution - although equally definitely not all of it!


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## Wilksy

Thanks for your replies, the UV is in the flow back to the tank so the water flows from the filter through the UV and then back into the tank - is this not right when I was installing it I couldn't quite work out which way was best.

Attached is a picture of the tank taken last night (I had just installed a lit background which looks fantastic but took me nearly 4 hours to fix due to the hanging clips not being suitable for my tank), as you can see plant growth is good with no algae present, which brings me on to my next problem namely pruning.

I have no real idea how to prune correctly, the large leafed plant to the left was so small when I was having all my algae issues, but now it is rampant and I would like to trim it up, also the java fern is huge again how does one prune that.


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## GHNelson

Hi
The large crypt on the left can be reduced in size by peeling off the largest outer leaves!
The java fern can be reduced by cutting at the base of leaves near the rhizome....best remove the discoloured/bent/broken leaves first.
hoggie


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## jaypeecee

jaypeecee said:


> Out of interest, why did you install the UV system in the return feed?


Hi @Wilksy 

Apologies for misleading you with my question above. The tank on which I have a UV-C sterilizer permanently installed has not been in use for about a year. So, I just checked it and it turns out that I also installed the sterilizer in the return feed!

JPC


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