# Putting the co2 diffuser next to the filter inlet?



## Emyr

I saw this method on a website where you put the co2 diffuser next to the filter inlet pipe so it draws in all the gas and pumps it out of the outlet pipe around the tank. Is this a good idea, I am worried that the gas could corrode the Rena xp4 filter or damage it in any way? It dose seem to be quite effective though, Thanks.


----------



## Alastair

Hi, 
I used to do this on my ex2400, and then again when I changed to the fx5. I never had any problem other than the ex2400 giving occasional co2 burps. A shake every no and then helped any trapped co2 escape. Less bubbles in the tank too


----------



## Emyr

Great. Im going to do this then, seems quite effective! Thanks.


----------



## Dolly Sprint 16v

Emry

Have a read at the attached thread - may be useful.

http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f= ... 63&start=0

Regards
Paul.


----------



## Emyr

Thats Great Paul. Answered all my questions in one. I have been running it like this since I wrote this thread and it works so well. Really pleased with this method. Thanks.


----------



## skeletonw00t

Im thinking of trying this method but im scared of it damaging my filter or causing it to exlode or leak :/


----------



## Emyr

Read through the other thread attached by Paul. It does no damage to the filter. Just give it a go.


----------



## skeletonw00t

Ok ive tried it :/ just hope it doesnt make my filter leak or explode!


----------



## skeletonw00t

Works brilliantly!!!


----------



## Emyr

Perfect. Knew it would. Just have to give these things a go sometimes.


----------



## skeletonw00t

Yep! Can't believe how much of a difference its made. I think the bubbles werent fine enough using my in line diffuser


----------



## Sentral

Remember all that Nitrosifying and  Nitrifying bacteria in your filter needs oxygen to function. By pumping it full of CO2 this would probably decrease the effectiveness of the nitrification process. It isn't to the extent that you'll see major issues, but it may also effect the filters life span, especially on rubber seals which can go brittle.
Much better to get an inline filter IMO


----------



## ceg4048

Sentral said:
			
		

> Remember all that Nitrosifying and  Nitrifying bacteria in your filter needs oxygen to function.


Adding CO2 to the filter inlet has no effect on the Oxygen content of the water. All gasses live side by side within the water column. It could also be argued that better CO2 diffusion, which helps the plants actually increases the Oxygen level since there is better CO2 availability.


			
				Sentral said:
			
		

> By pumping it full of CO2 this would probably decrease the effectiveness of the nitrification process. It isn't to the extent that you'll see major issues, but it may also effect the filters life span, especially on rubber seals which can go brittle.
> Much better to get an inline filter IMO


The efficiency of the nitrate producing "nitrobacter. sp" is a function of pH and temperature. Their optimum pH is actually in the alkaline region but they can function in pH range from the mid 5's to the high 8's. Species of nitrobacter, such as Nitrobacter winogradskyi are "Chemoautotrophic" bacteria, meaning they are bacteria which obtain their energy by the oxidation of electron donors in their environment. Tthey fabricate their required organic compounds from CO2. So there is hardly a disadvantage in having a CO2 enriched filter. Nitrobacter also generally do not care whether the conditions are aerobic (Oxygen containing) or anoxic (Oxygen deficient). They can also function perfectly even if there is an absence of nitrite. 

It's a similar story with the Ammonia Oxidizing (Nitrite producing) Nitrosomonas and Nitrosococcus which are also "Chemoautotrophic" and which generate energy by using the electrons liberated by the oxidation of Ammonia into Nitrite and which then uses this energy to convert CO2 to carbohydrates for food.

Nitrifying bacteria are in general, extremely athletic, versatile, and adaptable. They can change their behavior and their fundamental way of obtaining food based on the compounds that are available in their environment. That is why they are so successful. The only real disadvantage they face is in dealing with the low pH values encountered in CO2 injected planted tanks since they are optimized for alkaline conditions, but this has nothing to do with Oxygen displacement. These bacteria are happy to use both CO2 and O2 so there is no disadvantage in pumping CO2 into the filter. These bacteria also require magnesium as well as Phosphate and Iron, so they generally benefit in a planted tank which are abundant in these ingredients as discussed in Nutrition and Physiology of Nitrobacter agilis

As far as the seals go, there ought not to be that much of a difference, since the water in a CO2 injected tank has CO2 dissolved in it, regardless of the method used to dissolved the CO2, which also makes contact with the seals. Having said that, filter manufactures often claim they will not honor warranty for seal leakage if CO2 is injected directly into the filter.

Cheers,


----------



## skeletonw00t

How would the filter company ever know that you had co2 injected into it 

I cant see how it would affect the seals. Seeing as the gas wont have anymore direct contact with the seals as it would if it was injected into the tank.


----------



## Gary Nelson

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Sentral said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Remember all that Nitrosifying and  Nitrifying bacteria in your filter needs oxygen to function.
> 
> 
> 
> Adding CO2 to the filter inlet has no effect on the Oxygen content of the water. All gasses live side by side within the water column. It could also be argued that better CO2 diffusion, which helps the plants actually increases the Oxygen level since there is better CO2 availability.
> 
> 
> 
> Sentral said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By pumping it full of CO2 this would probably decrease the effectiveness of the nitrification process. It isn't to the extent that you'll see major issues, but it may also effect the filters life span, especially on rubber seals which can go brittle.
> Much better to get an inline filter IMO
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The efficiency of the nitrate producing "nitrobacter. sp" is a function of pH and temperature. Their optimum pH is actually in the alkaline region but they can function in pH range from the mid 5's to the high 8's. Species of nitrobacter, such as Nitrobacter winogradskyi are "Chemoautotrophic" bacteria, meaning they are bacteria which obtain their energy by the oxidation of electron donors in their environment. Tthey fabricate their required organic compounds from CO2. So there is hardly a disadvantage in having a CO2 enriched filter. Nitrobacter also generally do not care whether the conditions are aerobic (Oxygen containing) or anoxic (Oxygen deficient). They can also function perfectly even if there is an absence of nitrite.
> 
> It's a similar story with the Ammonia Oxidizing (Nitrite producing) Nitrosomonas and Nitrosococcus which are also "Chemoautotrophic" and which generate energy by using the electrons liberated by the oxidation of Ammonia into Nitrite and which then uses this energy to convert CO2 to carbohydrates for food.
> 
> Nitrifying bacteria are in general, extremely athletic, versatile, and adaptable. They can change their behavior and their fundamental way of obtaining food based on the compounds that are available in their environment. That is why they are so successful. The only real disadvantage they face is in dealing with the low pH values encountered in CO2 injected planted tanks since they are optimized for alkaline conditions, but this has nothing to do with Oxygen displacement. These bacteria are happy to use both CO2 and O2 so there is no disadvantage in pumping CO2 into the filter. These bacteria also require magnesium as well as Phosphate and Iron, so they generally benefit in a planted tank which are abundant in these ingredients as discussed in Nutrition and Physiology of Nitrobacter agilis
> 
> As far as the seals go, there ought not to be that much of a difference, since the water in a CO2 injected tank has CO2 dissolved in it, regardless of the method used to dissolved the CO2, which also makes contact with the seals. Having said that, filter manufactures often claim they will not honor warranty for seal leakage if CO2 is injected directly into the filter.
> 
> Cheers,
Click to expand...



What a fantastic and very interesting read! I have to ask where did you learn all about this? I have read many of your threads now and they are always full of great information and VERY in depth


----------



## GillesF

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Sentral said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Remember all that Nitrosifying and  Nitrifying bacteria in your filter needs oxygen to function.
> 
> 
> 
> Adding CO2 to the filter inlet has no effect on the Oxygen content of the water. All gasses live side by side within the water column. It could also be argued that better CO2 diffusion, which helps the plants actually increases the Oxygen level since there is better CO2 availability.
> 
> 
> 
> Sentral said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By pumping it full of CO2 this would probably decrease the effectiveness of the nitrification process. It isn't to the extent that you'll see major issues, but it may also effect the filters life span, especially on rubber seals which can go brittle.
> Much better to get an inline filter IMO
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The efficiency of the nitrate producing "nitrobacter. sp" is a function of pH and temperature. Their optimum pH is actually in the alkaline region but they can function in pH range from the mid 5's to the high 8's. Species of nitrobacter, such as Nitrobacter winogradskyi are "Chemoautotrophic" bacteria, meaning they are bacteria which obtain their energy by the oxidation of electron donors in their environment. Tthey fabricate their required organic compounds from CO2. So there is hardly a disadvantage in having a CO2 enriched filter. Nitrobacter also generally do not care whether the conditions are aerobic (Oxygen containing) or anoxic (Oxygen deficient). They can also function perfectly even if there is an absence of nitrite.
> 
> It's a similar story with the Ammonia Oxidizing (Nitrite producing) Nitrosomonas and Nitrosococcus which are also "Chemoautotrophic" and which generate energy by using the electrons liberated by the oxidation of Ammonia into Nitrite and which then uses this energy to convert CO2 to carbohydrates for food.
> 
> Nitrifying bacteria are in general, extremely athletic, versatile, and adaptable. They can change their behavior and their fundamental way of obtaining food based on the compounds that are available in their environment. That is why they are so successful. The only real disadvantage they face is in dealing with the low pH values encountered in CO2 injected planted tanks since they are optimized for alkaline conditions, but this has nothing to do with Oxygen displacement. These bacteria are happy to use both CO2 and O2 so there is no disadvantage in pumping CO2 into the filter. These bacteria also require magnesium as well as Phosphate and Iron, so they generally benefit in a planted tank which are abundant in these ingredients as discussed in Nutrition and Physiology of Nitrobacter agilis
> 
> As far as the seals go, there ought not to be that much of a difference, since the water in a CO2 injected tank has CO2 dissolved in it, regardless of the method used to dissolved the CO2, which also makes contact with the seals. Having said that, filter manufactures often claim they will not honor warranty for seal leakage if CO2 is injected directly into the filter.
> 
> Cheers,
Click to expand...


This has convinced me to try this method. Has anyone tried it with an Up Aqua inline atomizer?

Am I right that completely dissolved CO2 is better for difficult to reach plants (e.g. stems at the back)?


----------



## Emyr

skeletonw00t said:
			
		

> How would the filter company ever know that you had co2 injected into it
> 
> I cant see how it would affect the seals. Seeing as the gas wont have anymore direct contact with the seals as it would if it was injected into the tank.



They quite simply, wouldn't know unless you tell them which obviously you wouldn't. It is no different to injecting co2 by any other method, it is still going through the filter system. 

Thanks for explaining that Ceg. I was going to write a much shorter version of what you wrote and that it is absolutely fine.

I cant see the point in using that method with an up inline atomizer, as the whole point of the atomizer is to put it on the filter out take pipe, people put a diffuser underneath a filter intake to do the same job as an atomizer. 

As George Farmer wrote in the earlier thread "CO2 mist/microbubbles rather than 100% dissolved CO2 is apparently better for plant growth as the plants can use the CO2 in its gaseous form. Some people like to see the CO2 bubbles floating about, some don't."


----------



## GillesF

I don't like the bubbles, that's why I want to to place the atomizer at the inlet side instead of the outlet.


----------



## George Farmer

GillesF said:
			
		

> Has anyone tried it with an Up Aqua inline atomizer?
> 
> Am I right that completely dissolved CO2 is better for difficult to reach plants (e.g. stems at the back)?


Yes, and yes.  I'm currently using one on the inlet of my filter. Works great.

CO2 mist is great, but only if you get it distributed effectively. Otherwise some plants get more than their fair share, at the potential expense to others.


----------



## GillesF

George Farmer said:
			
		

> GillesF said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone tried it with an Up Aqua inline atomizer?
> 
> Am I right that completely dissolved CO2 is better for difficult to reach plants (e.g. stems at the back)?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, and yes.  I'm currently using one on the inlet of my filter. Works great.
> 
> CO2 mist is great, but only if you get it distributed effectively. Otherwise some plants get more than their fair share, at the potential expense to others.
Click to expand...


Thanks for the info, George. Should it be installed in a specific way?


----------



## GillesF

Installed my atomizer on the inlet side, I'm looking forward to seeing the results tomorrow. Should I decrease the BPS somewhat?


----------



## Emyr

I would let it run at the BPS that you had it at before and observe it, then change the BPS according to what is needed by looking at your drop checker and by Eye. You may not need to change it at all.


----------



## Greenview

I am trying to reconfigure how I distribute CO2 in my 180 litre and wondered about placing the diffuser under one filter inlet. I run two Eheim 2217s with spray bars (each filter covering a half of the tank) and wondered if anyone else has tried CO2 into the inlet of one filter only. Did you get CO2 distributed over all the tank or was it uneveny distributed on one side?


----------



## freelanderuk

do people think it would be ok to run my aquamedic 1000 reactor on the inlet side of my 2080 to aid flow a bit , i am getting just about 100% co2 dissolving in the reactor with few bubbles in the tank but flow from the filter is not as good as i would have expected

i found this article while scouring the net on co2 diffuser placement http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/m ... 00236.html


----------



## Dolly Sprint 16v

freelanderuk said:
			
		

> do people think it would be ok to run my aquamedic 1000 reactor on the inlet side of my 2080 to aid flow a bit , i am getting just about 100% co2 dissolving in the reactor with few bubbles in the tank but flow from the filter is not as good as i would have expected
> 
> i found this article while scouring the net on co2 diffuser placement http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/m ... 00236.html




the only thing your going to gain by placing the reactor on the inlet pipe is a reactor full of dirt, if you have co2 bubbles entering the tank you have not got 100% mix and as for the flow from the filter - the reactor is slowly the flow or returning water.

Regards
Paul.


----------

