# Guppy’s keep dying (help with diagnosis)



## macleod92 (8 Apr 2020)

Hi,

I was wondering if someone would be able to give me some advice on how to treat my sick guppy. I’ve had three die already in the last month and can’t figure out what is wrong. 
They’ve so far all died in a very similar way. They start spending most of their time sitting at the bottom of the tank lying on the substrate. They tend to last for a few days/ even weeks like this before eventually dying. 

This all started after a got a couple of new Guppy’s from Pets At Home (my mistake I know). 

I’ve done plenty of water changes and have kept checking my parameters.  I tried using a course of NT Labs Disease Solve as per the recommendation of my LFS bit that didn’t seem to help. 

My biggest problem is that besides lying on the bottom of the tank, the fish don’t seem to have any physical issues that I can see. All the diagnosis guides online talk about inflamed gills, or worms etc but I can’t see any of this. 

Here’s a video of the guppy. Can anyone suggest a course of treatment that will not only help this guy but stop the cycle of them dying.



Currently I have 8 male Guppy’s in a Fluval Edge 46L. 
The temperature is consistently around the 24 degree mark and my parameters are the following. Having done a 50% water change yesterday with another 50% done three days before that. 

Ammonia - 0.25
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 20

Thanks in advance for the help!


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## Mr.Shenanagins (8 Apr 2020)

If I had to guess based on that heavy breathing and lethargy and your detectable ammonia level, it could be ammonia poisoning. If that reading of 0.25 ammonia is after all your water changes, then your ammonia level was very high and still is too high for aquatic life to not feel the effects. Keep doing multiple changes until that ammonia is gone.


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## Bryce (8 Apr 2020)

If all your water parameters are good, maybe they were just sick or had a disease when you bought them. I really don’t know.


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## macleod92 (8 Apr 2020)

Thanks for getting back to me.  In terms of ammonia, having tested my tap water it shows up with the same reading of 0.25 so I'm not really sure if water changes will help with.

I've had these particular fish for 10 months now and they've been fine.  It's only since introducing two new fish about a month ago that they've been slowly dropping off one by one.  One of the new fish died a couple of days after I bought him, since then it's been random.  The fish will seem fine and the ammonia levels have been consistent for the last few months as I've been unable to get them any lower than this.

Any thoughts?


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## jaypeecee (8 Apr 2020)

Hi @macleod92 

I think this is a classic case of 'the shimmies'. So, I agree with @Mr.Shenanagins - ammonia is too high. You need to get it down to less than 0.05 mg/l (ppm). You may be interested in this link:

https://www.ratemyfishtank.com/blog/addressing-the-shimmies-in-live-bearers

JPC


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## jaypeecee (8 Apr 2020)

macleod92 said:


> Thanks for getting back to me.  In terms of ammonia, having tested my tap water it shows up with the same reading of 0.25 so I'm not really sure if water changes will help with.
> 
> I've had these particular fish for 10 months now and they've been fine.  It's only since introducing two new fish about a month ago that they've been slowly dropping off one by one.  One of the new fish died a couple of days after I bought him, since then it's been random.  The fish will seem fine and the ammonia levels have been consistent for the last few months as I've been unable to get them any lower than this.
> 
> Any thoughts?



Yes, which tap water conditioner are you using before adding tap water to the tank?

JPC


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## macleod92 (8 Apr 2020)

Thanks for the link. I'll have a read through that.  I'm using Seachem Prime as my conditioner.


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## jaypeecee (8 Apr 2020)

macleod92 said:


> Thanks for the link. I'll have a read through that.  I'm using Seachem Prime as my conditioner.



Seachem_ Prime_ is good stuff - shouldn't be any problem there. So:

1 How well planted is your tank? I can see a plant in the piccie.

2 What filtration are you using?

JPC


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## macleod92 (8 Apr 2020)

Right now the tank has a carpet of Dwarf Hairgrass Mini which hasn't been in there very long.  I also have a Narrow leave Java fern.  I did have some Amazon sword and a Cryptocoryne Wentii in there but I moved them out about a week ago.

For filtration I'm using the built in filter on the Fluval Edge 46L with a sponge for mechanical, a carbon filter and a some biological media.


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## jaypeecee (8 Apr 2020)

Toxins produced by the fish, most notably ammonia need to be removed from the tank water. Plants will happily remove ammonia as will nitrifying bacteria. Did you cycle the tank at any stage using biological media only? Removing the Amazon Sword and C. wendtii will have reduced the ammonia-absorbing capability of the plants by sheer virtue of the fact that there are fewer of them.

I need to take a break but will be back again later on.

JPC


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## macleod92 (8 Apr 2020)

I cycled the tank before I put a bunch of plants in there.  I should also say that the fish started dying before I had a bit of a re-scape in the tank.  My ammonia has always been around the 0.25 level.


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## jaypeecee (8 Apr 2020)

macleod92 said:


> My ammonia has always been around the 0.25 level.



How are you measuring ammonia? Which test kit?

Please tell us more about the substrate.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (8 Apr 2020)

macleod92 said:


> I cycled the tank before I put a bunch of plants in there.



How did you cycle the tank? Did you use a bottled bacteria product? If so, which did you use?

JPC


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## macleod92 (8 Apr 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> How are you measuring ammonia? Which test kit?
> 
> Please tell us more about the substrate.
> 
> JPC



I use the the API master test kit.  Is it possible that I’m misreading this?

I have Unipac Aquarium Silica Sand on top of a layer of Tropica Growth Substrate. 




jaypeecee said:


> How did you cycle the tank? Did you use a bottled bacteria product? If so, which did you use?
> 
> JPC




With this tank I used established media from another tank but no starter bacteria. It’s been running for about 11 months. 

It’s worth noting that I have another tank set up which has been running for about two months and I did use some API Quick Start in. It also shows as 0.25 when I test the water in that tank.


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## jaypeecee (8 Apr 2020)

macleod92 said:


> I use the the API master test kit. Is it possible that I’m misreading this?



That's always a possibility. I haven't used that kit for years. What values do the colour spots correspond to?



macleod92 said:


> I have Unipac Aquarium Silica Sand on top of a layer of Tropica Growth Substrate.



If it's Tropica _Substrate_ and not Tropica _Aquarium Soil_, I would expect there to be no issues. If it's the other way round, that may explain where some ammonia is coming from.



macleod92 said:


> It’s worth noting that I have another tank set up which has been running for about two months and I did use some API Quick Start in. It also shows as 0.25 when I test the water in that tank.



Tetra _SafeStart _is a bacterial starter that can be trusted. I don't know about API Quick Start.

We haven't mentioned water hardness. Guppies require hard water. What is the hardness of your tap water? You can get this information from your water company by providing your post code on their web site. Unfortunately, the API Master Test Kit does not include tests for KH and GH, unless I'm mistaken.

JPC


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## macleod92 (8 Apr 2020)

Interesting development. I just tried testing my tanks again after changing my procedure a bit. I was reading up on the API test kit on another forum and someone recommended washing the tubes out with warm water and then drying them before doing the test. 

I just did this and it looks like my tap water (after Prime) is still 0.25 but both my tanks are coming in at 0. 
I want to have a look in daylight to be sure but they look pretty conclusively 0 at the moment. 




jaypeecee said:


> I haven't used that kit for years.



Out of interest do you recommend a better testing kit?




jaypeecee said:


> If it's Tropica _Substrate_ and not Tropica _Aquarium Soil_, I would expect there to be no issues. If it's the other way round, that may explain where some ammonia is coming from.



It is indeed the substrate rather than soil. 




jaypeecee said:


> Unfortunately, the API Master Test Kit does not include tests for KH and GH, unless I'm mistaken.




I actually got a hardness test kit today and tested my tap water. My GH came in at about 340 with my KH being 250. So pretty hard.


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## sparkyweasel (8 Apr 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> You can get this information from your water company by providing your post code on their web site.


That may also shed some light on the ammonia apparently present in your tapwater. Look for ammonia and for chloramines. In some areas they use chloramines as well as chlorine, and  there is some debate about whether some test kits detect the chloramine as ammonia in the tapwater, and whether they can still detect it after Prime has neutralised it, giving a false positive.
It's hard to find a definitive statement on this, but there's a lot of discussion, such as in the links below.
Seachem seem to be quite cagey about giving information about their products, presumeably wanting to keep their secrets. Not surprisingly they recommend their own test kit to avoid any false positives.

https://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/threads/false-positive-ridiculous-ammonia-readings.265954/
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/d...th-ammonia-test-kits-or-ammonia-badge.329602/
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/archive/index.php/t-55684.html
https://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f60/ammonia-false-positives-352727.html
https://www.fishlore.com/aquariumfishforum/threads/how-does-prime-affect-api-ammonia-testing.201147/
https://www.fishlore.com/aquariumfishforum/threads/how-does-prime-affect-api-ammonia-testing.201147/


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## macleod92 (8 Apr 2020)

Thanks, I’ll have a look in to that.


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## macleod92 (8 Apr 2020)

I’ve just tested my tanks using some API test strips that I had lying around and they’re showing as 0 as well.
I know that strips aren't as accurate but it’s nice to check another test.


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## alto (8 Apr 2020)

I’m going to disagree with everyone else here - ammonia burn/toxicity presents differently than what your video shows 

Also if you’re adding Prime, it will bind low levels of ammonia (assuming that’s what may be in your tap water - contacting your local water supplier should clarify specific parameters, including any nitrogens), which will then be used by your “filter bacteria” (which are usually present on various tank surfaces as well as filter media)

Local shop did a thorough testing of nitrogens release from ADA Amazonia, Tropica Aquarium Soil, Tropica Growth Substrate - as expected significant levels off ADA, negligible off Tropica AS, some off Tropica GS 
Sorry I don’t recall the numbers, but ammonia, nitrite, nitrate were tracked over ~6weeks  

What your Guppy does look like is pretty classic slow acting strain (chronic) Columnaris as presented in guppies (many Guppy farms and shipments have significant incidence)
There are no effective medications available at the hobbyist level, so good supportive care and treatment of secondary infections (eg, external parasites) is recommended 
Even at the research level, Columnaris is very difficult to treat effectively, at most a reduction in mortality is observed (even after isolating, identifying strain, selecting the most effective in vitro agent etc)

Secondary infections are very common with Columnaris (and most fish diseases), so treating for ich and/or velvet may make fish feel better (unfortunately freshwater velvet is also quite refractive to treatment, but can often be managed to lessen the severity allowing fish to exist with a sub-clinical infection for some time (usually months) or occasional recovery (fish immune system))

As Ich treatments tend to be well tolerated, I would start there BUT as fish is obviously showing signs of distress, and oxygen levels will be low (Columnaris infiltrates gill tissue (as well as heart and muscle)), take care to optimize water column oxygen levels
- reduce tank temp to 20* - 22*C 
- daily 25-50% water changes
- medication (what’s available?) begin with a half dose, and monitor fish reaction (while not ideal, most anti-ich meds will have some efficacy at reduced dose) - remember to remove carbon 

If you don’t see any improvement in fish after 24-36h with medication - depends somewhat on actual medication available - then I would remove medication with water changes 




macleod92 said:


> was reading up on the API test kit on another forum and someone recommended washing the tubes out with warm water and then drying them before doing the test.


While it’s fine to do this, all that’s required is a thorough rinsing (usually 8-10 times with good agitation) of the testing tubes
If you’re going to follow “drying” suggestion, this should be air drying to avoid residue from paper/cloth etc (though “clean” single use drying cloths can be purchased)

For test kits, I always suggest those that include a reference standard for kit validation 
eg, Seachem MultiTest Ammonia 
(Except I think that testing for ammonia is likely irrelevant in treatment course anyway, though if you like to have test kits on hand, they can certainly be useful in providing additional information; invest in a decent set then that includes reference standards ... though all I have about is API 6in1 test strips  that I really just use occasionally to confirm that tap and tank parameters are similar)


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## alto (8 Apr 2020)

sparkyweasel said:


> Seachem seem to be quite cagey about giving information about their products, presumeably wanting to keep their secrets. Not surprisingly they recommend their own test kit to avoid any false positives.


In early years Seachem was much more transparent, I suspect that (like ADA) this was when it was a much smaller more personal company, though changing industry regulations have also likely played a part
As an example, Seachem medications are all based upon (independent) fish veterinary research studies that show efficacy on actual fish pathogens (and dosages follow effective treatment protocols, with no “assumptions of synergy of action” )


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## alto (8 Apr 2020)

macleod92 said:


> I’ve just tested my tanks using some API test strips that I had lying around and they’re showing as 0 as well.
> I know that strips aren't as accurate but it’s nice to check another test.


Unless the test strips have expired or stored/handled improperly, a decent test strip is very good indeed (unfortunately hobby branded versions don’t need to perform to an industry standard)

Care should always be taken when removing test strips, only touch the one you intend to use by the edges - or use clean dry tweezers to remove each strip and place on clean dry surface (I just use a piece of white paper towel)  - immediately reclose container.
Then carry out testing


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## dw1305 (9 Apr 2020)

Hi all, 





jaypeecee said:


> How are you measuring ammonia? Which test kit?


If you use Prime as your dechlorinator you <"will get a positive ammonia reading">, but it doesn't mean you have any ammonia. Seachem won't tell you what "Prime" contains, or how it works, but it is very likely to be similar in action to "Amquel", which has a patent. I agree with @alto, I don't think it is ammonia either. Guppies are horrible sickly things and they are likely to be carrying all sort of parasites and diseases. 

In terms of plants, I'm a <"floating plant fan">. As well as their effect on water quality they also help with fry survival, which may not always be such a good thing with livebearers. 

cheers Darrel


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## GHNelson (9 Apr 2020)

Hi
Not a fan of "Prime".....smells a bit like rotten eggs!
hoggie


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## dw1305 (9 Apr 2020)

Hi all, 





hogan53 said:


> smells a bit like rotten eggs!


I think that is the hydroxymethanesulfonate (HOCH2SO3-). 

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee (9 Apr 2020)

alto said:


> What your Guppy does look like is pretty classic slow acting strain (chronic) Columnaris as presented in guppies (many Guppy farms and shipments have significant incidence)...There are no effective medications available at the hobbyist level, so good supportive care and treatment of secondary infections (eg, external parasites) is recommended
> Even at the research level, Columnaris is very difficult to treat effectively, at most a reduction in mortality is observed (even after isolating, identifying strain, selecting the most effective in vitro agent etc)



Yes, indeed. The term 'shimmying' is just a reference to the fish's behaviour. According to Dr Peter Burgess*, just as @alto has outlined, Flexibacter columnaris is difficult to treat.

* Reference: "A-Z of Tropical Fish Diseases and Health Problems". And, in this book, the author says that Columnaris is one of the implicated causes.

JPC


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## macleod92 (9 Apr 2020)

Thanks for the responses everyone.  So I just want to double check that I'm understanding things correctly.



alto said:


> Columnaris is very difficult to treat effectively



Is there no point in me trying to treat at all for this.  For example following the advice in the article about dosing with a mix of API Furan-2 and Seachem KanaPlex?

https://fishlab.com/columnaris/



alto said:


> medication (what’s available?)



I've gone ahead and reduced the temp of my tank and will do daily water changes.  I'm a bit unsure of which medication would be best.  Is there anything that you could suggest that's available in the UK?


Overall I was wondering what the best course of action would be.  I have a small tank lying around that I could turn into a quarantine setup.  However I was unsure as to whether or not I should be separating and treating the specific fish that's sick, or given the fact that I've had a few deaths now (the rest look fine at the moment) that I should be keeping everyone together and treat the main tank.

Thanks again for all the help everyone!


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## jaypeecee (9 Apr 2020)

dw1305 said:


> I think that is the hydroxymethanesulfonate (HOCH2SO3-).



That would make sense. Please take a look at:

http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/wiki/Water_conditioners

_The Aquarium Wik_i is one of my 'must have' resources.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (9 Apr 2020)

Hi @macleod92 



macleod92 said:


> Out of interest do you recommend a better testing kit?





alto said:


> For test kits, I always suggest those that include a reference standard for kit validation eg, Seachem MultiTest Ammonia



The _Seachem MultiTest Ammonia_ would get my vote too. Although I have never used this specific test, I do use the _Seachem Ammonia Alert_, which uses the same principle. The latter continuously displays free ammonia, the toxic form. This is very handy as a quick glance at it (in the tank) will tell you instantly if there is free ammonia in the tank water. But, it is also advisable to know the total ammonia in the water (non-toxic ammonium + free ammonia). There is a case to be made for having both. Your choice will possibly be determined by your budget. Here they are:

https://www.seachem.com/ammonia-alert.php

https://www.seachem.com/multitest-ammonia.php

JPC


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## jaypeecee (9 Apr 2020)

dw1305 said:


> Guppies are horrible sickly things and they are likely to be carrying all sort of parasites and diseases.



If guppies can be obtained from a trustworthy source, then, of course, it's a different story. A friend of mine used to breed/raise rare species of guppy and other livebearers. Some guppies are very beautiful in my opinion.

JPC


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## Conort2 (9 Apr 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> If guppies can be obtained from a trustworthy source, then, of course, it's a different story. A friend of mine used to breed/raise rare species of guppy and other livebearers. Some guppies are very beautiful in my opinion.
> 
> JPC


This! If you can get them from a private breeder chances are you’ll have nice healthy fish. Otherwise I wouldn’t bother with them, they’re so inbred and mass produced in the Far East on farms and are of terrible quality. What used to be a hardy beginner fish is now a weak sickly fish that drops dead easily. If you can’t find a private breeder going forwards then endlers would be worth a try. Seem to be far less inbred and much hardier.

cheers

Conor


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## dw1305 (9 Apr 2020)

Hi all, 





Conort2 said:


> This! If you can get them from a private breeder chances are you’ll have nice healthy fish...... going forwards then endlers would be worth a try.


I wouldn't buy Rams or Guppies from a commercial outlet, only from a breeder. It is a sad state of affairs, but that is just where we are, and I've learnt my lesson.

I agree Endlers are a better option and you have more chance of getting them from a breeder at a reasonable price. Most people who breed Guppies breed "Show Guppies" which are expensive and they have their own problems.

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee (9 Apr 2020)

alto said:


> Unless the test strips have expired or stored/handled improperly, a decent test strip is very good indeed (unfortunately hobby branded versions don’t need to perform to an industry standard)



Hi @alto 

Useful information there - thank you!

I currently use the Hach AquaChek Fe strips plus Industrial Test Systems (ITS) NO3/NO2 and ITS Cu strips. I am particularly interested when you say "unfortunately hobby branded versions don’t need to perform to an industry standard". Would you happen to have details of the relevant standard? Or, where I may find it.

JPC


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## sparkyweasel (9 Apr 2020)

dw1305 said:


> I wouldn't buy Rams or Guppies from a commercial outlet, only from a breeder. It is a sad state of affairs, but that is just where we are, and I've learnt my lesson.


I agree with that, and would add Dwarf Gouramis to the list, which used to be one of my favourites.
A few years ago, when Asian farmed Rams were getting bad, the answer was to get German Rams. But now shops seems to just label all Rams as 'German' whatever their origin.


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## jaypeecee (9 Apr 2020)

Hi Folks,

With the help of my wife, I have successfully bred GBRs, Mikrogeophagus ramirezi. We had 41 beautiful fish - males and females - most of which I sold to Maidenhead Aquatics. It was such a rewarding experience but very time-consuming. It would have been nigh on impossible to have done this on my own. Feeding the tiny fry is a challenge but, if anyone wants to give it a try, just PM me for more details. BTW, the parents of these fish were of Czechoslovakian origin.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (9 Apr 2020)

Hi @macleod92 

Apart from the side-to-side movement of the Guppy in your video clip, are there any other visible signs on the fish's body? Columnaris disease is responsible for what is known as Mouth Rot or Mouth Fungus (even though it's a bacterial infection). The signs to look for are "small off-white or grey lesions or marks concentrated on the head, fins, gills and mouth cavity" - according to Dr Peter Burgess in his book that I referenced previously in this thread.

JPC


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## macleod92 (10 Apr 2020)

Thanks for all the above info everyone.



jaypeecee said:


> he signs to look for are "small off-white or grey lesions or marks concentrated on the head, fins, gills and mouth cavity



I've had a really good look and can't see anything obvious.  Although it's possible that I'm just not correctly identifying the marks as he's a relatively pale fish anyway.  Here is another video from a slightly better angle than the original.  Can anyone see any obvious signs?



Thanks for the help!


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## jaypeecee (10 Apr 2020)

macleod92 said:


> I've had a really good look and can't see anything obvious.  Although it's possible that I'm just not correctly identifying the marks as he's a relatively pale fish anyway.  Here is another video from a slightly better angle than the original.  Can anyone see any obvious signs?



Hi @macleod92

OK, it would appear that there are four known strains of the disease itself! Please take a look at:

https://www.fishlore.com/aquariumfishforum/threads/columnaris-symptoms-and-treatment.263058/

The important bit is "The disease in the past has been called Saddleback Disease because often the afflicted fish will show a pale saddle like area across their dorsal fin onto their back". Take another look at your fish. Indeed, it does have the pale saddle, doesn't it? Why there was seemingly no mention of this in the book to which I previously referred, I don't know. So, it _does_ look as if your guppy has succumbed to Columnaris. I have determined that eSHa 2000 may well be the best choice for your guppy. You can read more about this product here:

https://www.eshalabs.eu/europe/products/esha-2000supregsup.html

It's available from Amazon UK.

Good luck and please keep us posted.

JPC


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## sparkyweasel (10 Apr 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> Why there was seemingly no mention of this in the book to which I previously referred, I don't know.


That's a good book, but about twenty years old now, so the different strains may not have been identified at the time.


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## jaypeecee (10 Apr 2020)

sparkyweasel said:


> That's a good book, but about twenty years old now, so the different strains may not have been identified at the time.



Hi @sparkyweasel 

You may well be correct. I didn't realize that I'd had my copy for that long. I have the first publication, dated 1998! I think it's time that I updated it! And, yes, it is a _very_ good reference book to have in the cupboard under your tank. Some of my mates at my local fish club know Peter Burgess but I've yet to meet him.

JPC


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## alto (10 Apr 2020)

macleod92 said:


> For example following the advice in the article about dosing with a mix of API Furan-2 and Seachem KanaPlex


Yes these are better meds to use with Columnaris, especially the Furan-2 type compound (which is a well documented  synergistic treatment compound) though I much prefer the Hikari version 
But both types are still predominantly supportive care re minimizing secondary infections

While your Guppy may be showing a “saddleback” lesion, it’s not clear in that video - is the paleness just from the collapsed dorsal fin 
It uncommon to observe a saddleback lesion without also seeing the accompanying facial lesions


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## alto (10 Apr 2020)

macleod92 said:


> I've gone ahead and reduced the temp of my tank and will do daily water changes. I'm a bit unsure of which medication would be best. Is there anything that you could suggest that's available in the UK?
> 
> 
> Overall I was wondering what the best course of action would be. I have a small tank lying around that I could turn into a quarantine setup. However I was unsure as to whether or not I should be separating and treating the specific fish that's sick, or given the fact that I've had a few deaths now (the rest look fine at the moment) that I should be keeping everyone together and treat the main tank.



I’m not in the UK so can’t really suggest what’s likely to be available (check online as well) 
BUT
anything added only has the ability to improve mortality rate not actually treat/inhibit (most) Columnaris strains 

Often guppies will respond positively to the addition of NaCl (your plants maybe not so well), so you might try adding salt (NaCl), begin with 1Tablespoon per 37litres, then after 12-24h increase to 2T per 37litres - you can continue increasing this salt level, but if you don’t see any improvement at this stage, increasing salt will unlikely have much effect 
(the salt may alleviate “velvet” or other secondary infection symptoms, it won’t negatively impact the Columnaris)


A previous post I made in this thread 
_*Columnaris disease in fish: a review with emphasis on bacterium-host interactions*_

_Annelies Maria Declercq_
_Freddy Haesebrouck,_
_Wim Van den Broeck,_
_Peter Bossier and_
_Annemie Decostere_
_Veterinary Research. 2013 44:27

https://veterinaryresearch.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1297-9716-44-27

This review article is hosted on several sites, some of which include full access

Without access to meds that have proven Columnaris activity, optimum water conditions are your best bet
You’ve already decreased temp, which is good
Softer water will also improve survival rates (pick up some RO to dilute with tap if you’re in a hard water area)
Slightly acidic pH also seems to benefit fish over Columnaris
Increase surface movement - ie anything that optimizes oxygen levels in water is beneficial to fish as C invades gill tissue
Vacuum substrate as much as possible
Rinse all filter media, clean filter hoses of any sludge

I’d use activated carbon to remove any medications that have been added - they will only act as fish stressor
(& most sequester oxygen)


AND remove any possibly infected fish to a separate tank (or food safe bin) set up with bare bottom - they will act as a significant infection source
I’d actually remove all Bettas and Danios, also consider rainbow isolation (though I’d keep them separate from the Bettas and Danios)
Be very careful not to cross contaminate from isolation tanks, back to main tank - separate nets, water change equipment etc - also have a physical separation between tanks

At this time, sounds like the fish you are losing are among those species that are more “sensitive” to C infection/higher mortality (even with suitable medications etc, there is always some % mortality)_

As you’ve only the 8 guppies in your Fluval Edge I’m not sure I’d worry overmuch about fish separation in terms of maintaining water quality and minimal bioload 
One issue that many claim about the Fluval Edge series, is poor oxygenation of the water (based upon anecdotal observations not any actual oxygen measurements (I’ve seen)), so I’d suggest dropping the water level and possibly adding an air stone/pump - though if you can arrange for the filter return to “splash” that would also address this issue

You don’t mention actual size of your “small tank” 
- I’d actually be inclined to remove the healthy seeming guppies to a bare glass tank (you can add some unused plastic plants or a newly purchased plant (from a fish free system, especially Aquarium Gardens which maintains a hydroponic style holding system for their potted plants) while sorting out the Edge

- realistically, I doubt the Guppy in video will recover - unless he has a food response? - though I understand a reluctance to euthanize. Do you have one of those net breeders? (there are various branded versions) this can be placed high in the tank so that there is some gentle current crossing through - this will improve water movement across guppy gills and should help his increase oxygen levels (making him more comfortable)


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## alto (10 Apr 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> unfortunately hobby branded versions don’t need to perform to an industry standard".


Strip tests that are sold for clinical applications are regulated, manufacturers should be able to discuss quality control and standards of performance etc in response to your query 

I rarely test my water these days so can’t comment specific to your test strips 

One of the reasons I’ve always liked Hach 


> *What is the accuracy of Hach Test Strips?*
> Hach Test Strips are semi-quantitative and are accurate to +/- one half of a color block. Quantab strips are accurate to +/- 10 percent. Specific accuracies vary by parameter and are denoted on the product ordering page as well as on the package itself. If you are looking for a more precise method of testing, for instance if you are reporting to the EPA, please view our other test kits.


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## alto (10 Apr 2020)

macleod92 said:


> that I should be keeping everyone together and treat the main tank.


You will definitely want to “treat” the main tank even if you remove fish during treatment 

This is where an actual diagnosis would be helpful - unfortunately as this is unlikely (especially given current circumstances), I’d be inclined to do some fairly intensive cleaning of the Edge

QUOTE="macleod92, post: 593241, member: 19286"]This all started after a got a couple of new Guppy’s from Pets At Home (my mistake I know).[/QUOTE]
As you mention having a second small tank, I’d set this up as a quarantine tank for new fish purchases 

We all make mistakes so don’t dwell on this overmuch 
In reality, even a quarantine should run for 2-3 months (with graduated introductions etc) rather than the 2-3 weeks usually allotted but most fish manage just fine despite our imperfect care


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## macleod92 (11 Apr 2020)

Thanks for all of the info everyone.
Unfortunately I lost the Guppy today. Thank you everyone for trying to help.

I’ve since done a 75% water change.  I’ve got some ESHA-2000 coming tomorrow.  My question is whether or not I should go ahead with dosing with the ESHA (or based on the above comments Furan-2)?
Or should I just do daily WC for the next week or two to really make sure the water quality is good.

I just want to make sure that the rest of the fish don’t have anything.


Thanks!


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## alto (11 Apr 2020)

Can you post some details on your set up?

I have some idea from the video but also some questions


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## jaypeecee (11 Apr 2020)

Hi @macleod92 

Sorry that you lost your Guppy. We tried.

I would go with whatever @alto suggests. S/he has more experience than me and I want you to get the best advice possible.

I will watch this thread with interest.

JPC


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## macleod92 (12 Apr 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> Sorry that you lost your Guppy. We tried.



I appreciate everyone's efforts.  Unfortunately these things happen.



alto said:


> Can you post some details on your set up?
> 
> I have some idea from the video but also some questions



No problem.  As you know it's a Fluval Edge 46L.  It's been setup for about 10 months. It has the stock filter (sponge, carbon and bio) and LED light which is on for 10 hours a day.  I also have the Tropica Nano Co2 system setup.

Before they started dying I had 11 Guppies as well as two zebra snails and an amano shrimp.

After the first two Guppies died I decided to have a bit of a clean out but also to rescape as I was having issues with the substrate coming up through the sand cap.


The timeline looks like this.

4th March - 1st Guppy death (two days after introduction to tank from PetsAtHome)
13th March - 2nd Guppy death (euthanized after it became clear it was suffering)
_22nd March - Big clean out/ rescape (tank emptied and thoroughly rinsed out, growth substrate replaced, sand substrate washed thoroughly)_
31st March - 3rd Guppy death (sudden)
11th April - 4th Guppy death

The scape looks like this.  1cm layer of Tropica Growth Substrate followed by a 5-9cm layer of Unipac Aquarium Silica Sand (layer of greenhouse shading inbetween substrate and sand).  I have a piece of bogwood in there along with some rocks and a (recently planted) dwarf hairgrass carpet.

The rest of the Guppies look alright at the moment but I thought after the other times so am now not sure.

Any advice on how to permanently head this thing off would be great.  Thanks!


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## macleod92 (14 Apr 2020)

So unfortunately I had a 5th Guppy die today.  This one came out of nowhere.  I've got some ESHA-2000, should I dose the tank with this or with something else?  I'm just not sure what to do and don't want all my fish to keep dying.


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## jaypeecee (14 Apr 2020)

macleod92 said:


> So unfortunately I had a 5th Guppy die today.  This one came out of nowhere.  I've got some ESHA-2000, should I dose the tank with this or with something else?  I'm just not sure what to do and don't want all my fish to keep dying.



Hi @macleod92

I understand your quandary. Have you considered sending a PM to @alto?

JPC


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