# 70L planted - first tank



## LFNfan (10 May 2022)

Hi All

Two months in to my first planted tank, and having 'lurked' a lot on UKaps and benefited greatly from others' posts and advice, thought I would have a bash at a journal to share a bit back with this lovely community.  Mindful of Mark Twain's warning that 'only those rare natures may hope to venture upon so tremendous an enterprise as the keeping of a journal and not sustain a shameful defeat.'   I am prepared for defeat.

I've attached some pics of what I have - 70L ebay tank (has an 'H' embossed at the centre of the rim at the top as the only clue to its origin), 500L/hr HoB filter with sintered media and coarse and fine mesh inside and a coarse pre-filter, heater set to 22 deg celsius, 3 x 10W LED floodlights on a timer for nine hours (only two on at the moment).  Insane London water - GH25 in the tank, 21 from the tap, KH 18, pH around 8, according to the test.   Nitrates around 20ppm out of the tap, if the test is to be believed, and between 20ppm and 40ppm in the tank. 

Planting into fine gravel.  Lost my vallisneria torta to terminal melt in the first few weeks, and gave up on my hydrocotyle leucocephala as too annoying.  Hygrophila siamensis 53B, limnophila sessiflora (my fave), and limnobium laevigatum (recent addition) seem content.  Dosing TNC Complete around 1ml about 5 times a week and TNC Fe 1ml about three times a week (53B new growth a bit pale looking, moreso than the frogbit as  it happens).  I also have TNC root tabs under the 53B and limnophila.  Was changing 50% water around twice every 10 days for the first month or so, now down to around 30% weekly.  Gravel-vac'ing where I can.  Had a brief spell several weeks ago with detritus worms and some tiny 'commas' barely visible to the eye dotting around, but these inhabitants seem now either deceased and decayed or keeping a lower profile.

Diatoms appeared about three weeks ago, or so, and I added a couple of nerite snails to clean up.   Very exciting.  One snail likes to climb on top of the other one and then eggs appear on the hardscape a few days later,  so I suspect I have a male and a female.  The male is a more diligent feeder.  The snails don't touch the diatoms on the 53B, so instead I rub it off with my fingers where it's most obvious and accessible.   The limnophila also suffers but doesn't like this rough rubbing treatment.  I'm considering delegating this task to a fish in future - otocynclus perhaps although I don't think my parameters are ideal and they don't come across as especially robust based on what I've read.

Overall, very much enjoying this new endeavour, and looking forward to seeing where things go next.  Ideally I'd be able to see the diatoms fading away at some point, and I would be happy with some green algae.  Willing the limnophila and 53B to get to the surface in the next month...

Plan is eventually to get some male Endlers, and perhaps migrate the tank out of the garage where it currently lives (although the garage is so darn convenient for water changes).


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## Hufsa (10 May 2022)

Nice little setup and welcome to UKAPS 
Look forward to following your journal 😊


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## The Miniaturist (10 May 2022)

Welcome!
Have you tried heteranthera zosterifolia (star grass)? It's pretty unstoppable like limnophila sessiliflora & it waves gently in the slightest of water currents, I think it's quite attractive.


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## LFNfan (10 May 2022)

The Miniaturist said:


> Have you tried heteranthera zosterifolia (star grass)?


That looks very cool.  Thanks for pointing me in that direction.  I have got a few places where that could live   Will see if I can pick some up next time I'm purchasing.


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## Ginkgo (11 May 2022)

heteranthera zosterifolia is a great suggestion, it will make the tank look more full as it grows so dense and bushy. I like your idea about keeping the floating plants under control, I've not see that before.


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## LFNfan (12 May 2022)

I stuck a background on my tank today, in anticipation of putting some fish in.  Whoa - it has completely changed the look!  It seems much more narrow front-to-back now, compared to when I could 'look through the back' of the tank.   Scapers comments about 'creating depth' make more sense now.

The other thing I have realised is that I didn't break up the 53B or the limnophila into enough separate plants when I first planted them - I was a bit too worried about killing them by snapping them into five or six bits so a pot of 53B went into just two pieces and I didn't split the limnophila at all.  Lesson learned for the heteranthera which will - when I get my hands on some - be going in the left hand side of the tank which now looks even more bare with the background in place.

I saw the nerites at it again yesterday.  I wish they'd focus more on eating my diatoms than spending time with each other....


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## Ginkgo (12 May 2022)

Backgrounds really do make a difference, I personally paint the back of my tanks with a black paint. I also have a tank with a synthetic rock background that fluval sells, which also looks nice, and a little more natural. The diatom phase will be over soon hopefully!


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## LFNfan (15 May 2022)

Big moment today - bought first fish,  put first fish in tank.  Several hours later, first fish still alive!

Went to buy otocinclus to help with the diatoms, and came away with a bristlenose pleco instead.  Was advised that the otos were wild-caught and might not make it with my very hard tap water, and the bristlenose might be a better fit.  Hm.  OK.  The bristlenose is just under an inch in length at the moment, and boy does it have some energy!  It's doing circuits of the glass, dropping down to the gravel, flitting around the hardscape.  Pretty pleased with it.  Down-side, of course is that it's going to get big at some point and will probably need re-homing (unless I get permission to upgrade the tank).

I also saw the heteranthera - growing immersed - and it didn't look like the pictures.  Much rounder leaves, less dense, and less star-shaped.  So I passed on it.  Maybe it was a different type or sub-species.  I really do like the look of the heteranthera in the pictures, so maybe that thing exists in real life...

The limnophila is putting on a good growth spurt at the moment.  Rock 'n roll!

End of update.


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## The Miniaturist (15 May 2022)

Hmm, that's strange about the star grass? I have bought Tropica's 1-2-grow cups, the plants are sort of concertinered into the cup so when you tip them out they expand greatly. The plants just look the same, only slightly smaller leaves. If the leaves are creased or bruised they turn a blue/black colour underneath. Perhaps the plant had been mislabeled.


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## LFNfan (15 May 2022)

Hi TM, I also thought it was odd, and mentally put it down to mis-labelling too!  So it stays on my list probably for the next online purchase whenever that may be.


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## LFNfan (17 May 2022)

Quick update

1. I have abandoned the 'fish feeding ring' approach to corralling my frogbit - I noticed that biofilm was forming inside the ring, and diatoms on the edges of it.  Instead I've rigged up some fishing line in a sort of cross shape (the blue lines in the attached pic) and corralled it all in one of the wedges where there's no planting beneath.  The ends of the line are secured to the glass using some mini sucker disks.  It seems to do the job.  Let's see how that goes.
2. I attached a picture of the randy nerites in action.  The bottom one was doing quite a vigorous twisting motion whilst the other was atop.  Is this behaviour that more experienced aquarists recognise from these types of snail?  I don't think the one on top is trying to eat the shell of the one below because my water is hard as hell so no lack of calcium, and the shell itself still looks perfect as far as I can see, even after multiple 'mountings'.  
3. Rather unflattering picture of the underside of the young bristlenose attached.  It's doing a beautiful job clearing the diatoms on the glass and leaves.  Each day I see a few perfectly clear stripes of bright green on previously completely brown leaves, where the diatoms have been slurped off.  Lovely to see it flit around the hardscape and glide to a halt briefly on the gravel before scooting off again - it's got real character.
4. I have been reading on the forum about the possible link between high filter inflow current and higher incidence of diatoms, which seems to mirror my own observations.  I strongly suspect that's not the only factor contributing to the diatoms, but nevertheless, I have widened the holes in my spraybar quite substantially and turned down the flow rate just a smidge.  Aiming to basically maintain the 'turnover' rate but decrease the strength of the current.
5. I inadvertently knocked my thermometer off the aquarium glass (the suction cup came loose) the other day and I discover to my surprise that it floats, in a lovely vertical orientation - by design!  How clever is that.

The unplanted gap on the left hand side of the tank seems to be getting bigger by the day.  I wondered about getting a rosette plant instead of / as well as the star grass.  Any hard water, high pH, no CO2 recommendations welcome.


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## LFNfan (22 May 2022)

Hi All

Quick updates

The pleco has now been named 'Gucci' by my daughter's friends because it 'lives in a palace'.  I think that's more of a comment on the fact the fish is so small compared to the tank, rather than my aquascaping abilities.  Previously happy to be very visible around the tank especially on the glass even with the lights on, Gucci is now very reclusive and is pretty hard to spot during lights-on (and, obviously also hard to spot with lights off).

I have had a tinker with the frogbit corral - brought it more into the centre of the tank to maintain space all round the edges, and better flow around the tank.  In the earlier wedge configuration I think the flow was disrupted as it got to the end of the tank.  Biofilm was still present, but dissipating now.

I floated a bit of raw courgette in the tank a few days ago.  I think it got a few nibbles on day two, but by day three had developed a thick opaque outer layer and by day four had to be scooped out with a spoon.  May try blanching next time, see if that makes a difference.

Diatom situation seems to have stabilised (not seeing any new stuff).  Which is good.

Think that's about it for now.


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## Midwife (26 May 2022)

Why not make a freezer bag load of courgette up? It's so handy. As I part steam them for 2 mins I only put in the tank for 24 hours before removing  it. 
It gets eaten by all my fish.


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## LFNfan (26 May 2022)

Hi Midwife - thanks for the tip.  I have now got a freezer bag of sliced peeled courgette.  Will make life easier!

I read somewhere that veggies can be put in raw, which is what I've been doing (fully defrosted of course).  To make them sink I sandwich them between two clay discs that I got from some plants.  

Appreciate the pointer on how long to keep in the tank - I have been leaving them in waay too long!

Going to try some runner beans, see if they are a hit.  Although my pleco is so small it's hard to know if anything is actually being eaten...

Generally, I'm not sure if these veggies _need_ to be steamed/blanched before putting in (to make them edible), or if that's just to make them sink.


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## The Miniaturist (26 May 2022)

Hi there,
I have a JBL food clip with a sucker to fix it on the glass.
I buy a bag of mixed salad leaves & pick out a couple of baby spinach leaves every few of days. Then I blanche the leaves by simply pouring boiling water over them until they wilt, clamp them in the clip & fix it to the tank glass.
My ottos do loop-the-loops all round the tank with excitement!
I'm assuming a small plec will behave similarly to an otto.


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## LFNfan (27 May 2022)

That looks clever - they've thought of everything! I will definitely be getting one of those.

Great to see those ottos out and about on that spinach.  My plec has turned into something of a recluse - at least when I'm looking!  It's not yet been two weeks so maybe it's still settling in.


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## LFNfan (9 Jun 2022)

Quick update
The tank seems to have grown in a bit.  The limnophila sessiflora has even had a bit of a trim (it finally reached the surface), and it's showing off some lovely runners.  It's happy.
Our resident plec has done a really remarkable job with the diatoms - the 53B leaves and hardscape are beautifully clean, as is the glass. 
I've pulled out some of the limnobium laevigatum - was starting to get quite dense.  I've also tinkered with the hardscape a bit.
Thinking about my next steps - probably some more visible and diurnal fish.   I saw some lovely cory Kanei at the LFS, and might take the plunge with some tetras too.  Also the star grass.


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## dw1305 (10 Jun 2022)

Hi all,


LFNfan said:


> I saw some lovely cory Kanei at the LFS,


Buy them, <"small, rare and really nice">.

cheers Darrel


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## LFNfan (14 Jun 2022)

Had a power cut at home this morning - courtesy of UK Power Networks with literally one minute's notice by SMS.  It knocked my hang-on-back filter off and it didn't restart.  I was at work and I just got back home and set it going again - about eight hours with it off.

In other news, I was going to get my Kanei today but I mentioned to the LFS that my filter was not running and they said perhaps best give it a few days with the filter back running before putting new fish in.  Don't know if that's over-cautious or not.  Anyway, they have my name on them for a few days, which is nice.  I think I'll also get some neon tetras - seems a bit of a cliche but I like the colours and they're pretty small so won't take over the tank.

Not a very exiting update, but there it is.


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## dw1305 (16 Jun 2022)

Hi all


LFNfan said:


> Had a power cut at home this morning - courtesy of UK Power Networks with literally one minute's notice by SMS. It knocked my hang-on-back filter off and it didn't restart. I was at work and I just got back home and set it going again - about eight hours with it off.


<"You should be all right">.  HOB filters are much better for gas exchange <"than canister filters">, so your filter media is much more likely to have remained oxygenated. 

Also planted tanks aren't ever  <"wholly reliant on the filter microbes">, they have the <"direct contribution of the plants"> (when the lights came back on) both in terms of both adding oxygen and removing nutrients. There is also the <"synergistic plant / microbe"> effects within the substrate. 


LFNfan said:


> but I mentioned to the LFS that my filter was not running and they said perhaps best give it a few days with the filter back running before putting new fish in. Don't know if that's over-cautious or not. Anyway, they have my name on them for a few days, which is nice.


Waiting isn't going to hurt if they are already "yours".

cheers Darrel


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## Conort2 (16 Jun 2022)

LFNfan said:


> In other news, I was going to get my Kanei today but I mentioned to the LFS that my filter was not running and they said perhaps best give it a few days with the filter back running before putting new fish in. Don't know if that's over-cautious or not. Anyway, they have my name on them for a few days, which is nice.


Sounds like a decent lfs, a lot of places would give them to you regardless.


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## LFNfan (16 Jun 2022)

Thanks very much.


dw1305 said:


> HOB filters are much better for gas exchange <"than canister filters">


I have this  semi-canister HoB filter - it does 'hang on the back' but is pretty much fully sealed, compared to some of the more open 'waterfall-type' HoBs I have seen.  Not sure. 

I've revisited some reading I did on gas exchange and am thinking that adding an air stone might be a good way to go.  I think there's a trade-off, though, between the benefits of promoting gas exchange via HoB plus air stone vs. 'keeping some CO2 in' for the plants by having just the HoB surface agitation.   _ Appreciate advice or pointers to key posts on that trade-off in my case.  _As you all know I only have one lil' fish at the moment but hopefully that will be changing next week when I get my hands on three or four corys and I think six x-ray tetras.

Importantly, my pleco seems fine, and plants don't seem to have batted an eyelid at the outage (unsurprisingly).



dw1305 said:


> Also planted tanks aren't ever <"wholly reliant on the filter microbes">, they have the <"direct contribution of the plants"> (when the lights came back on) both in terms of both adding oxygen and removing nutrients.


This is what I love so much about the whole concept of a planted tank - it's a proper ecosystem where everything works together, and there's therefore some built-in resilience.



dw1305 said:


> here is also the <"synergistic plant / microbe"> effects within the substrate.


This is really interesting.  Not least to learn that there's such a thing as archeia.  My slightly heavy-handed approach to setting up my tank means that I have a pretty thick substrate layer throughout, which sounds like a good thing in hindsight.


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## LFNfan (22 Jun 2022)

I got the Kanei!  They are chilling on the substrate.  I hope they are OK.  I must say, I find transferring fish from bags to aquarium exceedingly stressful!  Possibly more stressful than the fish.

I also saw a really nice variegated plant, growing immersed.  Stupidly I didn't get the name, but it had quite rounded leaves, green but with bright white veins.  Seemed stem-ish.


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## dw1305 (22 Jun 2022)

Hi all,


LFNfan said:


> I got the Kanei! They are chilling on the substrate.


Brilliant. <_Corydoras (ln9) kanei_>.


LFNfan said:


> I also saw a really nice variegated plant, growing immersed. Stupidly I didn't get the name, but it had quite rounded leaves, green but with bright white veins. Seemed stem-ish.


A photo would help, but have a look at <"the links in this thread">.

cheers Darrel


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## The Miniaturist (22 Jun 2022)

Congratulations on getting the Kanei!
I can completely empathise with the stress of transferring fish from bag to tank. I bought some pygmy corys, got them home & panicked! They were so tiny I was afraid of squashing them, fortunately all went well & they settled in quite quickly!


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## LFNfan (22 Jun 2022)

Thank you both!  Transferring is mad isn't it.  Not sure I will ever get used to it.  This time was 4x worse than transferring the pleco because there was just one li'l pleco in that bag - I had four Kanei in the bag today.  I think what stresses me out most is not so much the size, but the worry that somehow the fish will end up on the floor (I imagine various scenarios, all of which I will spare you).

I'll have to get some pics, all being well.  May dust off the DSLR.

Interesting thread on the non-aquatic plants Darrel.  Sadly the one I saw looked very much like this one: fittonia. According to the RHS it likes loamy, well-drained growing conditions 🤣


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## dw1305 (23 Jun 2022)

Hi all,


LFNfan said:


> Sadly the one I saw looked very much like this one: fittonia. According to the RHS it likes loamy, well-drained growing conditions


That was my initial guess from <"your description">. Unfortunately _Fittonia_ is a really common houseplant sold as an <"aquarium plant">.

I'll be honest I don't consider that a lot of the plants that will survive under water are <"really suitable as aquarium plants either">.  Companies promote  plants that they <"can produce emersed">, because it suits their production methods, not because they are the most suitable plant for long term submerged growth.

Have a look at @Kezzab 's thread <"Messing about"> and that will show you what _Rotala  rotundifolia _and_ Staurogyne repens_ really want to do.

cheers Darrel


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## The Miniaturist (23 Jun 2022)

I still have one one of my first aquarium plant books I bought in the early 80s. The reason I kept it was because all the artists colour plates have the waterline showing & how the plants behave above it. All my tanks have covers otherwise I would be very tempted to let the plants do their own thing & grow an aquatic flower garden!


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## LFNfan (23 Jun 2022)

couple of pics of the new arrivals, and one of Minne the Muncher.


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## dw1305 (24 Jun 2022)

Hi all, 


LFNfan said:


> couple of pics of the new arrivals


The really are gorgeous. 

cheers Darrel


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## LFNfan (28 Jun 2022)

Morning All

I'm getting a bit of yellowing on my Hygrophila Siamensis 53B's older leaves, and in some cases yellowing and disintegrating tips, and I'm seeing a few semi-transparent leaves floating around the tank.  The new growth still looks good, and there seems to be a fair bit of new growth happening around nodes, not just at the top of the plant, so I'm not too worried at this stage.  I am dosing around 2 - 3ml of TNC Complete into the water column every other day (or so).  I did put some TNC root tabs under the 53B when I started the tank at the end of March.  I wonder if they need refreshing by now?

Separately, I managed to catch sight of my pleco on the glass last night.  Got a bit of a shock because its tummy - if I am looking in the right place - looks pretty empty.  It doesn't touch the algae wafers I bought originally so I have ordered a different brand which are coming tomorrow - hopefully it will have a liking for those.  There's not a spot of diatoms in the tank any more, and so just feeding veggies seems to have been a bit of a blunder these last few weeks.  Here's hoping I can recover it.

The Kanei are good fun as long as I don't surprise them and they scoot for cover.  They busy themselves around the substrate in a pack or individually, and are onto food like a flash.  A couple of them have fun swimming up and down the airstone bubble column repeatedly which is great to observe.


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## AlecF (28 Jun 2022)

Try the Pleco on green pepper.


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## LFNfan (3 Jul 2022)

Hi All

I got some different algae wafers, and these seem more palatable, although still a bit hit-and-miss.  I'll be picking up some green peppers shortly (the green ones aren't so popular in our house!).  Not got a good view of the plec's tummy since I last posted, but seen it around and its colour - such as it is - seems to have improved.

The corys are a lot of fun - they like mucking about.  

I've attached a pic of my 53B - yellowing and melting ends, mostly older leaves, it seems.  Welcome any advice or thoughts.  I'm going to stuff a few new root tabs down in the substrate - maybe the others have run out after 3 months.

I'm also starting to see some dark green algae on the edges of the 53B.  I wonder if this is due to me now feeding more fish food?

Finally, I learned what a racket the HoB makes when you run it dry for half an hour - high pitched whistle.  Oops.  Still works but I bet I scrubbed a few hundred hours of its useful life.  Oops.


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## LFNfan (12 Jul 2022)

Quick update.

Bought this plant from the LFS today.  I'm such a doofus I have forgotten its name in my rush to get back to the office for a meeting ( I spent way more time than I realised looking at the tanks and chatting and lost track of the time).  I think it's anubias, but I'm not sure.  Anyway, it's clearly a rhizome plant so I've wedged it in to some wood as shown.

Pleased to report the pleco is eating better now, - likes the new algae wafers, and the pepper (!).  Getting noticeably bigger.

I think the airstones I set up are contributing to green algae - it's started appearing on the lid and upper leaves of the 53B and some frogbit near the airstones.

Also included a full-length pic of the tank - it's growing in nicely, although I'd like to get that heater hidden!

That's it for now.


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## _Maq_ (12 Jul 2022)

LFNfan said:


> Bought this plant from the LFS today.  I'm such a doofus I have forgotten its name in my rush to get back to the office for a meeting ( I spent way more time than I realised looking at the tanks and chatting and lost track of the time).  I think it's anubias, but I'm not sure.


Yes, it is.


LFNfan said:


> I think the airstones I set up are contributing to green algae - it's started appearing on the lid and upper leaves of the 53B and some frogbit near the airstones.


I don't think so. But floating plants sometimes suffer from surface movement.


LFNfan said:


> Also included a full-length pic of the tank - it's growing in nicely, although I'd like to get that heater hidden!


Looking at your Hygrophilas I think possibly there's nitrogen deficiency in your tank. Is it possible?


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## LFNfan (12 Jul 2022)

Hi Maq - thanks for the quick response and confirming it's anubias!

I think you are right about the nitrogen deficiency - with the Hygrophilas anyway (the frogbit and limnophila seem pretty green and happy, and my test kit is showing the nitrates in the water column as 80ppm+).  I posted this last week though:



LFNfan said:


> I've attached a pic of my 53B - yellowing and melting ends, mostly older leaves, it seems. Welcome any advice or thoughts. I'm going to stuff a few new root tabs down in the substrate - maybe the others have run out after 3 months.


I have put some more root tabs down in the substrate this week, and will see if that helps.  Not sure if there is anything else i should be doing?

Many thanks


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## _Maq_ (12 Jul 2022)

LFNfan said:


> I think you are right about the nitrogen deficiency - with the Hygrophilas anyway (the frogbit and limnophila seem pretty green and happy


If frogbit is happy, I'd rather consider other possibilities.


LFNfan said:


> I have put some more root tabs down in the substrate this week, and will see if that helps.  Not sure if there is anything else i should be doing?


Depends on what your root tabs contain. I never use any, anyway.


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## erwin123 (13 Jul 2022)

LFNfan said:


> Hi Maq - thanks for the quick response and confirming it's anubias!
> 
> I think you are right about the nitrogen deficiency - with the Hygrophilas anyway (the frogbit and limnophila seem pretty green and happy, and my test kit is showing the nitrates in the water column as 80ppm+).  I posted this last week though:
> 
> ...



If your substrate is gravel-based rather than clay-based, root tabs might not be a good idea as gravel has low CEC compared to clay-based substrate. This page is a good explainer of CEC. It even mentions that managing cation ratios is 'controversial' 



			Cations and Cation Exchange Capacity  | Fact Sheets | soilquality.org.au


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## LFNfan (15 Jul 2022)

Interesting.  I have read bits and bobs about cations and positive and negative charges - mostly in the context of getting Fe into plants, and it needing to be chelated to stay in the water column in such a way as to remain available for plants for a little while at least.  You may be able to tell that this goes way over my head.

I think my simplistic take-away is that my gravel substrate does not hold a negative charge and so can't hold  the cations near the roots where the 53B wants to pick it up.  That seems to run contrary to what most of my Youtube-based research has indicated, which is that 'root tabs' are an effective means of delivering nutrients to root-feeding plants.  Not that I would be in the least bit surprised if Youtube was labouring under a misconception (shocker).

Next time around (if I get another tank, or upgrade this one), I think I should be considering some sort of soil (or clay) base-layer.


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## _Maq_ (15 Jul 2022)

LFNfan said:


> I think my simplistic take-away is that my gravel substrate does not hold a negative charge and so can't hold  the cations near the roots


It's true that pure silica sand is a weak adsorbent. But things change quickly once it gets enriched with detritus, which is good (and the right one) adsorbent of phosphorus and transition metals. You need no chelated micronutrients.


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## ExcitableBoy (16 Jul 2022)

LFNfan said:


> Anyway, it's clearly a rhizome plant so I've wedged it in to some wood as shown.


Hi! You should not wedge it but tie it to the wood with  a sewing thread (it will rot away after some time or a nylon thread used for fishing). Plus if you do that I suggest you to cut its roots and leave them about 3 cm / 1 inch long.

About your nitrates there's no need to keep them so high, probably the test is exaggerated but even if they were at 50 ppm I would  bring them at 30 ppm at least. I have read that your tap water has already enough nitrates, so don't dose them if you can.
To me it's more about Iron and micros, but you can ask in Plant Help to receive more opinions. If you have that  high KH and are using an airstone, it could be that the pH is quite high. You could try dose more micros and/or use a fertilizer which has the iron chelated with DTPA, which is a stronger chelating agent than EDTA. Don't use Iron gluconate, it will precipitate almost instantly and will not be available for plants.


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## Midwife (16 Jul 2022)

LFNfan said:


> Hi All
> 
> Two months in to my first planted tank, and having 'lurked' a lot on UKaps and benefited greatly from others' posts and advice, thought I would have a bash at a journal to share a bit back with this lovely community.  Mindful of Mark Twain's warning that 'only those rare natures may hope to venture upon so tremendous an enterprise as the keeping of a journal and not sustain a shameful defeat.'   I am prepared for defeat.
> 
> ...


Why did you give up on Brazilian Pennywort?


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## LFNfan (17 Jul 2022)

Hi All

Thanks for your replies!



Myrio said:


> To me it's more about Iron and micros, but you can ask in Plant Help to receive more opinions. If you have that high KH and are using an airstone, it could be that the pH is quite high. You could try dose more micros



There is definitely something that needs fixing here.

I am also thinking that this could be micro-related, but the symptoms seem to be nitrogen-related: yellowing of older leaves, new growth smaller and slightly reddish, increasing amount of  algae on the leaves (although I am currently attributing that last one to the hot weather we're experiencing here). 

pH is high but has always been. 




Myrio said:


> suggest you to cut its roots and leave them about 3 cm / 1 inch long.


Interesting suggestion - why would I cut down the roots?  I would have thought better to preserve as much root as possible.


Midwife said:


> Why did you give up on Brazilian Pennywort?


It was too unruly for me when it came to water changes.   I have found the frogbit is much more manageable for me.


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## ExcitableBoy (19 Jul 2022)

LFNfan said:


> Interesting suggestion - why would I cut down the roots? I would have thought better to preserve as much root as possible.


It will be a PITA to tie it to the wood with those long roots, plus  by doing that  the plant will produce more fast new roots that will anchor it to the wood, with no need of a thread after some time.
I actually do this when I plant in the substrate too, the plants will develop new roots that will keep them anchored better and also they will spread better in the substrate.


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## LFNfan (20 Jul 2022)

That's really interesting (and a bit counter-intuitive!).
I don't want to go all-in yet, but I've cut a few roots to see how they respond.  


Myrio said:


> you can ask in Plant Help to receive more opinions.


I did that. I think there are a few 'macro' (in the sense of 'fundamental' rather than 'nutrients') things to tackle in the first instance (lighting and hard water). Always learning!


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## LFNfan (27 Jul 2022)

@Myrio I glued the anubias to the wood  The roots I cut are now somewhere under the substrate.  And it looks like it's put out a new leaf in the past day or so.  Although I would describe the colour as 'slime green' which is disappointing.  I predict it's either going to brighten up or wither away.

I took @jaypeecee 's advice to lower the lighting on my tank, and after about a week the topmost Hygrophila leaves are now greening up and losing their reddish tint.  The older leaves are still melting from the tip so things are not yet quite right.  Am thinking about 'cutting' my water with reverse osmosis water, but not yet decided.


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## ExcitableBoy (27 Jul 2022)

Hi, TBH I have never seen that colour on new leaves. Leave an update in a week. 
If you have used a cyanoacrylate glue and haven't covered all the rhizome with the glue it shouldn't be for that
About the Hygrophila if they were already melting before you cut the lights there's nothing to do. You will have to control the "new old" leaves. 
About RO water, well it's about you. If I remember right your tap is 20 GH and 20 KH or thereabouts. You should use at least 1/2 RO and 1/2 tap, or better 2/3 -3/4 RO. 
You could buy a RO system, but the thing is that your tap is really hard, it might be too hard for a simple RO System (sediments filter + Carbon filter +  RO membrane). You might need something before, like a softener that removes most of calcium and magnesium and help the membrane. Plus if your tap water has low pressure you will need a booster pump too, otherwise the system will work even more slowly and produce a lot of wastewater.
You could also consider to buy RO water at the LFSs, just ask how much they want and see what you think is the most convenient choice for you.


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## LFNfan (2 Aug 2022)

Quick update - that new anubias leaf is starting to go a proper green.  Not what I was expecting!  Let's wait and see how green it goes.

I've done some sums on RO equipment (and softener) thanks to a really patient and helpful RO supplier.  It doesn't really add up for me right now.  So I've stocked up on some RO water from the LFS.  Is gonna mean approx monthly refills at LFS which I'm seeing as the beginning of a new weight-training regime.  

Finally, trying to bring down the nitrates, I've started on TNC Lite and will be keeping an eye on plant health and nitrate levels over the next few weeks.


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## _Maq_ (2 Aug 2022)

I'd like to encourage you to RO+DI. I'm not a 'technical' kind of person and was afraid of it for a while. It turned out it's not difficult to grasp and arrange in the way that suits. Now, I cannot imagine living without it. (Also, my tea is way better since then!)


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## LFNfan (2 Aug 2022)

Ah, I would love to have a RO or RODI system - the 'technical' aspects would be part of the charm for me.
But the up-front and running costs, and to a lesser extent the inevitable time investment in setup and optimisation, don't stack up for me at the moment.
More generally, I need to take quite a strategic approach to my upgrade path, balancing financial, time, and 'goodwill' considerations.


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## LFNfan (10 Aug 2022)

Couple of pics of that new leaf - still a bit pasty compared to the others, but a decent size and definitely signs of chlorophyll!


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## LFNfan (7 Sep 2022)

Quick tank shot update - plants seem much happier after I brought the light levels down about a month ago, and started 50/50 RO /tap water.  I'm dosing alternate days 1ml of TNC Complete and TNC Lite, and keeping up the weekly 50% water changes.
I sprayed the tank background black last week, after the pieces of black paper I'd stuck up there finally fell off.  I'm really pleased with how it looks, even after coming down off the spraypaint fumes.
The fish seem pretty happy, although the pleco is a bit of a jerk towards the corys at feeding time.  To be fair, it's the corys nibbling the pleco's algae wafer when they have their own food at the other end of the tank!  They are quick as a flash and take the pleco in their stride. 
The corys have a lovely bit of orange to them which has me thinking maybe some copper harlequin rasboras for the mid-level of the tank could work quite nicely, especially with the new black background.
Regards all


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## LFNfan (9 Nov 2022)

Quick update - still following the single light regime and 50/50 RO/tap.  Aside from the anubias, the plants are unhappy, and so I'm not entirely 'in love' with the tank at the moment.  The frogbit is slowly melting and has rubbish roots, the 53B has cracked older leaves, and the limnophila is losing its older fronds leaving just exposed stem.  I am putting this down to rather inconsistent fert dosing and dropping the light to just six hours, from eight over the past month or so.   To be a bit more consistent with the ferts, this week I've started dosing TNC Complete and TNC Lite on alternate days, 1ml a time.  Will give it a month and see how that goes.

On the up-side, the pleco and the corys seem pretty content.


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## dw1305 (10 Nov 2022)

Hi all,


LFNfan said:


> The frogbit is slowly melting and has rubbish roots


That looks like it might be a <"magnesium (Mg) and / or an iron (Fe) deficiency">.   They are both much more likely in hard (calcium (Ca++)) rich water.  You would need an <"iron chelator that works in harder water">.

I'd try some extra magnesium. The easiest option is magnesium sulphate heptahydrate  (MgSO4.7H20), you can buy it really cheaply as <"Epsom Salts">.


LFNfan said:


> still following the single light regime.....and dropping the light to just six hours, from eight over the past month or so


I'd both turn the <"light intensity up"> and have a <"longer photoperiod">.   This is what @Christel (<"Kasselmann">) says:


Christel said:


> Hi, I have been a passionate plant aquarist for more than 45 years. All my 11 plant aquariums with in total 4000 liters have a day length of at least 12 hours of lighting, as I cultivate many species and I use an average value for the day length. There are species such as Anubias, Bolbitis, Bucephalandra that grow in the tropical rainforest and they have a slightly shorter day length due to the shading of the trees............


That way you can take <"lack of light"> out of the equation and your floating plant has <"already removed CO2 availability"> as an issue.

Once light and CO2 are out of the way it <"only leaves the mineral nutrients">.

cheers Darrel


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## LFNfan (10 Nov 2022)

Thanks Darrel - really appreciate that, and the links.

More light!  I have upped the photo period to 12 hours - that should give the plants a better opportunity to actually use the nutrients in the water (!).  Feels like a bit of a rookie error that one.  What was I thinking.

My very basic lighting setup means I don't have much fine control when it comes to light intensity.  I think I will leave that variable alone for a couple of weeks and then reevaluate.  A bit of history - I had been struggling with bleaching on my 53B, so reduced (halved!) the light level in August this year.

I've got some TNC Fe (DTPA) handy so will start introducing that to 0.5ppm.  The TNC Fe states 1ml/10L to get to 1ppm, so for 60L to 0.5ppm I think I should be dosing 3ml.  Should that all go in at once??  And then top-up after every water change (if I change 30L I dose 1.5ml)?

I already mix in about a flat tablespoon of Mg with each water change, so, every couple of weeks.

Always learning!  Many thanks


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## dw1305 (10 Nov 2022)

Hi all,


LFNfan said:


> I've got some TNC Fe (DTPA) handy so will start introducing that to 0.5ppm.


See what happens, even if it is an iron deficiency it will take a while for growth to improve, because the <"plant can't shuffle iron (Fe) around its tissue"> and only new leaves will be healthier. 

I'd try a bit more fertiliser, have a look at <"Floaters">. I'm using <"Solufeed 2 : 1 : 4"> at the moment and that looks to work quite well, but I have softer water than you  (I'm a <"rain-water user">).

cheers Darrel


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## LFNfan (13 Nov 2022)

I don't think I'm imagining this... after 3 days at 12 hrs light, a fair bit of the frogbit seems to have stuck out some short new roots _and_ some new leaves.  That's remarkable.


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## LFNfan (17 Nov 2022)

To add 10ppm of NO3, I think I'd need only 1g of Solufeed 2:1:4 for my 65L tank.
Not sure if this is right because rotalabutterfly seems to indicate that dosing 4g of TNC Complete would add just shy of 1ppm N - maybe this needs multiplying by 4.43 to get to NO3?  Even so, that's quite a difference.

Doing a bit more thinking on this, I realise that putting the lights on for longer will enable the plants to consume more nutrients.  But I suspect my 'nutrients in / nutrients out' balance is off because my NO3 tests are always showing on the redder side of orange; 40+ppm (too high).  The other way nutrients are getting in the tank is from feeding the fish - half an algae wafer and seven or eight catfish pellets a day.

Is there a way to 'balance' things better without relying on the 'water change' reset?  Add more plant mass, less fish food, lower dosing seem to be the options (I'm already doing 50/50 RO/tap).


*Source**Effect**Cumulative*Tap NO3+20ppm+20ppmTNC NO3+5ppm+25ppmPlant usage-10ppm+15ppmFish food+15ppm+30ppmWater changereset+20ppm


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## LFNfan (2 Dec 2022)

A few updates

I've been cutting down the fish food, and hoiking out algae wafers after a few hours rather than just leaving in the tank.  Nitrates now consistently measuring around 'orange' on the API test kit - 20ppm.  Registering a 'nice green' on the Frogbit Index too.  Really pleased with this.  Again, feels like I should have always 'just known to do this'.  Anyway, I finally put 2+2 together and made 4.  The fish still seem active and have a nice colour.
I've been dosing iron - about 3ppm per week, and the stems seem to really be benefiting.  I tried taking a picture but it doesn't show the same contrast I can see with my eye - with the lower-top leaves having that yellowy look but the new top leaves having a nice green throughout the leaf.  Still dosing a dash of epsom salt at water change, and about 4ml of TNC Lite over the week (alternate days to the Iron).
A question

my frogbit is putting out lots of nice new green leaves, but there are quite a few yellowing/melting leaves still attached.  If I have the time is it worth nipping these off to just leave the green, or is the plant somehow still benefiting from the melting leaves as they slowly  wither?


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## dw1305 (2 Dec 2022)

Hi all,


LFNfan said:


> Registering a 'nice green' on the Frogbit Index too. Really pleased with this. Again, feels like I should have always 'just known to do this'. Anyway, I finally put 2+2 together and made 4. The fish still seem active and have a nice colour.


Result.


LFNfan said:


> If I have the time is it worth nipping these off to just leave the green,


Nip them off. They may be the old iron deficient leaves? In which case the plant can't move iron to them, so they can never improve and the plant will abandon them to make new leaves. 

cheers Darrel


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## LFNfan (11 Dec 2022)

Quick update - my pleco has been acting up a bit at mealtimes for the past several months, stressing the corys.  So today I re-homed him at the local fish shop.  Quite sad to see him go as he was just a tiddler when I got him, but now at nearly 4 inches he was getting a bit too big for my tank, and his other tank-mates.
I lured him into a net with some broad bean - and despite an abundance of caution he was no match for my cunning plan.
I have bought some otocynclus in his stead - dwarf ones so these should be a good fit with the cory's, and help keep on top of the diatoms which are starting to reemerge in the new 12-hour lighting regime.
That's it for now.


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## LFNfan (16 Dec 2022)

Few pics, for documentary purposes.
The Siamensis 53B new growth is really nice (although I now have quite a few bare stems lower down!).  Frogbit continuing to do well.  Limnophila also looking good on top (but bare below!).  Will probably trim and re-plant when the weather gets a bit warmer.  Overall, the 12-hr lighting, extra iron, 'lite' ferts and keeping the feeding sensible are all paying dividends.


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## LFNfan (Monday at 10:29 PM)

'...you mean my anubias isn't supposed to be variegated?'

I quite liked the 'stripey' upper leaves on my anubias until the newest one sprung out over the past week and I see it's wonderfully, uniformly, green.  The 'variegation' on the three leaves below now just shouts out to me 'past iron deficiency'....   Someone's going to tell me that based on the _new_ leaf the plant's still lacking something, I just know it!


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## dw1305 (Tuesday at 10:34 AM)

Hi all,


LFNfan said:


> The 'variegation' on the three leaves below now just shouts out to me 'past iron deficiency'..


<"Yes">.


LFNfan said:


> I quite liked the 'stripey' upper leaves on my anubias


You are just <"ahead of the curve"> and  a <"trend setter">,  it is the <"future of aquascaping">.


LFNfan said:


> Someone's going to tell me that based on the _new_ leaf the plant's still lacking something,


That looks <"pretty healthy to me">.

cheers Darrel


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## LFNfan (Wednesday at 12:41 AM)

Links maestro!  Much appreciated.  Seems others have got there before me, and in better style (if 'style' it be), on the iron deficiency aquascaping!  

Interesting comment in one of those links about frogbit not responding well to high humidity.  


Majsa said:


> The limnobium is not thriving, but I blame the increased humidity under the lid



Something I'm going to look into as my frogbit is heading downhill for one reason or another after perking up from September to mid-November under the longer lighting regime.  It's weird - as the siamensis and anubias are loving life, the frogbit turns south.  I think my setup probably _is_ more humid under the 'lid' at the moment - my tank is in a cool location (ambient these past five or six weeks of around 13C average) with a water temp of about 22C.  I have a tight fitting lid of the acrylic hollow square section variety and do get a lot of condensation on the underside.  There's a small 1.5cm circular hole for dropping food through, but that's it as far as aeration goes.  There's about a 2-3cm gap between surface of the water and the lid.


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