# Hard water cloudiness.



## Jose (10 Nov 2014)

Hi everyone.

Lets see, in my tank when I fill it up with tap water, after a couple of days it goes cloudy. 

I live in a very hard water area, Salisbury (wiltshire, UK). I believe the KH might be around 16 or more.

So I was wondering if more people suffer from this. Cause I could keep fish in this water specially livebearers but the cloudiness is quite a problem cause it ends up in the aquarium walls and stuck everywhere after some weeks.

Would this go away with good filtration (I havnt got much experience with this water). Could this be another substance?. The water looks very clear to start with. If I add a bit of an acid extract it goes away (this makes me think it might just be bicarbonates). 

Are there other options apart from using RO water?. I know this acid doesnt harm the fish as long as you make good use of it, but its a bit of a pain to have to add it to your new water every time you are doing a water change.

Thanks beforehand.


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## ian_m (10 Nov 2014)

I have 22 degree Clark water from Twyford Down, so maybe harder than yours. I possibly slight get cloudiness in the water, especially visible with bright lights, but certainly not stuck everywhere like you describe.

Could it be bacterial in a "new setup", this certainly can cause cloudiness a few days after water change. API Accu-clear can get rid of it precipitating it out to be filtered away.

Try doing water changes using a mixture of boiled and tap water to see if that makes a difference. Boiling will remove the bicarbonate.


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## Jose (10 Nov 2014)

MMM well I suppose it could be bacteria but it last time I did it the tank was new as well as the sponges.....unles the bacteria in the water died. 

I think boiling would help but its just such a pain...imagine if I kept a bigger aquarium. I would be better off with bottled water really in this case.

I will keep trying with normal tap water to see if something changes with time. I just changed all the water in the tank yesterday so will see how it goes.

I do appreciate you tips Ian_m I am just too lazy.

By the way what fish have you kept succesfully in this type of water/liquid rock?


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## ajm83 (10 Nov 2014)

Mine is around 17 degrees (German) / 20 (Clarke) here in Essex, and I have successfully kept Angelfish, Plecs, Neons, RTBS, Rummynose, Harlequins.  The only fish I have struggled with are Ramirezi. I used to keep them years ago in this water with no major problems, but now I can't keep them alive. 
To be honest even since switching to re-min'd RO I'm still struggling so I'm wondering if they're poorly bred/raised before purchase.

BTW I've never noticed the water going particularly cloudy unless the substrate is disturbed, are you sure it's the water hardness causing it?


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## ian_m (10 Nov 2014)

Jose said:


> By the way what fish have you kept succesfully in this type of water/liquid rock?


Nothing special, all run of the mill easy keep fish, some many years old now, Clown Loaches, Flying Foxes, Neons of various types & colours, Ottos, various red, yellow and black mollies and millions of guppies. I have to spend some time each water change fishing the fry out of the two filters I have, I had seven fry in my monster JBL1501 last week.


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## Jose (10 Nov 2014)

There isnt really anything other than water going into the tank. So it has to be something in the water. I used to live in Spain with a moderately hard water and never had this happen.

Have you you guys kept cardinal tetras? Sorry, not a test just some info gathering.


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## ian_m (10 Nov 2014)

Jose said:


> Have you you guys kept cardinal tetras


I have about 20-30 Cardinal tetras in my hard water, no problem.


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## Mr. Teapot (10 Nov 2014)

You could always see if some Purigen in your filter helps?


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## ian_m (10 Nov 2014)

I run with purigen, does seem to help keep water clean.


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## dw1305 (10 Nov 2014)

Hi all, 





Jose said:


> live in a very hard water area, Salisbury (wiltshire, UK). I believe the KH might be around 16 or more.


 I'm just on the N side of Salisbury plain, and our tap water is about the same dKH. The water comes from deep limestone aquifers, and at about 16/17 dKH the water is completely saturated with CaCO3. You can get higher dKH values, but only if you have dissolved NaHCO3 etc.





Jose said:


> after a couple of days it goes cloudy.


You are right, the cloudiness is calcium carbonate (CaCO3) coming back out of solution.

Carbonates are technically insoluble in H2O, but soluble in water due to the dissolved CO2 and the HCO3- ~ CO2 (as carbonic acid - H2CO3) equilibrium.

The amount of HCO3- (and Ca++ ions) in solution depends upon the amount of CO2 gas dissolved in the water, and the presence of other cations.

CO2 is more soluble in cold water than warmer water, and the monovalent ions form more soluble carbonates (NaHCO3, KHCO3) than the divalent ones.

The outcome of this is then when water is heated (in a kettle etc.), or when the volume of the solution is reduced (via evaporation) or when a potassium (K+) or sodium (Na+) salt is added to the solution, CaCO3 will come out of solution as a fine milkiness that slowly settles out.

I use rain water, although even that has some carbonate buffering (presumably from atmospheric dust).

cheers Darrel


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## Jose (10 Nov 2014)

Aha thanks very much Darrel.

You see I do dose with CaCl2 and K2SO4 between other things so this might be playing its part. But anyway, seems there is no way around this for keeping a long term planted tank. So will have to keep buying bottled water for small aquariums and when I get around a big one Ill have to get an ro unit and since I am at it Ill have to keep some discus.

Its such a shame....since I come from a place of water pretty much perfect for any fish. But you cant have every thing.


Thanks everyone!

Great Forum!


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## Crossocheilus (10 Nov 2014)

I find that a few hours after water change (using both hot and cold tap) the water turns milky. I have hard water, living in Oxford, got a test result of 360ppm CaCO3. I have kept platies, zebra danios, neon tetras, sterbas cories, pearl gourami, emperor tetra, cherry barb, copper harlequins, pygmy cories, otocinclus and recently bamboo shrimp.


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## Crossocheilus (10 Nov 2014)

Btw with the hard water:

I have been through quite a few sterbas cories. They are always kept on a soft water system at my local MA. Many didn't even have barbels and one got a bad case of fungus which I couldn't cure, they slowly died one by one. The ones I have now are indestructible and I have had one female for many years. These are fish that come from very acidic amazonian water of negligible hardness, yet they have eventually got used to and established in hard water and are very happy. I might even go so far as to say that I have seen some mating/courting behaviour (but no spawning)

My point being many softwater fish can and will adapt to hardwater and even flourish given time and care. I know it is not ideal for them but tbh they seem to cope very well.


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## Jose (10 Nov 2014)

Crossocheilus said:


> My point being many softwater fish can and will adapt to hardwater and even flourish given time and care



Many will but some wont. Like German blue rams. Discus have a limit as well I would think. And also with ph over 7 if you have an ammonia spike your fish have a greater chance of dying, So have to have good biological filtration.


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## Crossocheilus (10 Nov 2014)

I agree discus and rams need soft water, as do liquorice and chocolate gouramis, but most standard community fish are fine in hardwater. The point about ammonia is true however I have never seen any direct impacts or indications of an ammonia spike in my tank. 
Anyway in a high tech planted tank with heavy filtration and planting any ammonia should be used quickly.


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## Jose (10 Nov 2014)

All ican say from experience is that Ive kept a tank at a ph around 6 and fish did amazingly well, specially the colour of my cardinal tetras. Its probably coincidence but no matter what i did wrong in that tank and with a HOB filter I never lost fish. 

I do honestlythink fish are better at lower ph. And I think many substrate producers know this like ADA.


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## Crossocheilus (10 Nov 2014)

I totally agree I just wanted to get across that although not ideal it is possible to keep fish quite happily in hard, alkali conditions for those that are cursed with such tap water.


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## Jose (10 Nov 2014)

Crossocheilus said:


> I totally agree I just wanted to get across that although not ideal it is possible to keep fish quite happily in hard, alkali conditions for those that are cursed with such tap water



Definately true.

There is one thing I would really like to know. Do soft wáter fish like the low Ca+Mg or is it the low carbonates that makes them really happy? It might be both.
In other words, If we lower the ph via an acid this makes the conductivity a bit higher but can eliminate the carbonates. This is what I used to do and I know its not advisable for a bginner, but it worked for me.

Maybe German blue Rams could kept in this manner and would be happier. Thoughts¿? I know cardinals were very happy.


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## GHNelson (10 Nov 2014)

Jose said:


> Aha thanks very much Darrel.
> 
> You see I do dose with CaCl2 and K2SO4 between other things so this might be playing its part. But anyway, seems there is no way around this for keeping a long term planted tank. So will have to keep buying bottled water for small aquariums and when I get around a big one Ill have to get an ro unit and since I am at it Ill have to keep some discus.
> 
> ...


Most plants don't care about how  hard your water is they a more interested in how much Co2 is in the water!....also  fertilization....and lighting!
hoggie


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## dw1305 (11 Nov 2014)

Hi all,





Jose said:


> Do soft wáter fish like the low Ca+Mg or is it the low carbonates that makes them really happy? It might be both. In other words, If we lower the ph via an acid this makes the conductivity a bit higher but can eliminate the carbonates.


Depends upon whether you are interested in maintenance or breeding. It is high dGH/dKH that stops the eggs hatching. This is via 2 mechanisms, hardening of the egg shell, and the increased microbial activity in less acid conditions. 

For a lot of species of soft water fish can be maintained in harder water if you have a stress free environment in other areas, but some species can't long term and they tend to be the "tricky" ones to keep like _Dicrossus filamentosus, Parosphromenus spp. etc.
_
The same applies to conductivity, for some species conductivity is irrelevant, for others their life span is shortened in "saltier" water, possibly by hypercalcinosis.

I use the coffee analogy, once you've added coffee to water it is impossible to go back to it being just water, you can make the drink sweeter be adding sugar and milk, but everything you add gets you further away from it being plain water. Some fish are happy in "white coffee", some in "black coffee" and some only in water. The "easy" fish tend to be ones that "drink" everything.

cheers Darrel


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## Jose (11 Nov 2014)

I understand Darrel. My main interest is in keeping long term(not breeding) South American fish like cardinal tetras, tetras in general and discus. Its known and has been said a million times that they can be kept in harder water without problems. But, would they be happpier in a mediumly hard water with ph artificially lowered compared to the same water with no acid added?. I think they would, just because adding an acid ups the conductivity a bit but not that much but also adds all the benefits of an acidic water for them.

I do know neon tetras are said to be sensible to Ca++ ions in the long run but if you have a certain tap water you cant do much about this except use ro or rain water.

In line with your coffee comparison, maybe some fish prefer a sweeter macchiato than others cause they come from sweet milk waters. They dont like the coffee but they like the sugar.


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## dw1305 (11 Nov 2014)

Hi all,





Jose said:


> But, would they be happpier in a mediumly hard water with ph artificially lowered compared to the same water with no acid added?. I think they would, just because adding an acid ups the conductivity a bit but not that much but also adds all the benefits of an acidic water for them.


 That is the real question, and I don't know the answer.  

I think probably that acid treated water would be better than the alkaline tap water, but not as good as low conductivity soft water, but that is just a hunch.  I've never kept soft water fish in hard salty water, but others have successfully <"*What's the importance of KH.....*">. 

On _<"*Apistogramma*_* forums* -OK"> there was a very interesting post by Ted Judy (in a thread on conductivity), which covers much of this topic area. 

cheers Darrel


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## Jose (11 Nov 2014)

Thanks! Ive now got some reading to do then.


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## Jose (11 Nov 2014)

Seems like a guy in the Apisto forum has seen the same kind of results: Carbonates is the most critical part in breeding. 

Also when I used to breed tiger barbs I noticed the same thing. I would get the highest hatch rate diluting half a part of tap water in half a part of bottled very soft water. The trick was to lower ph to 5 or 5.5. If the ph was higher than 5.8, then no survivors.I also bred neon tetras but these do need very low conductivity as well. I had very low succes due to my feeding with egg yolk.


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## Jose (11 Nov 2014)

I might run an experiment. Ill try adding acid to my liquid rock water to a ph lower than 7 and do water changes only with this water. Ill only have moskito rasboras though.
In theory most fish can live with this Ca and Mg concentrations in the water. All Ill be doing is getting rid of most of the kh.

Does anybody know where I can buy HCL(Hydrochloric acid) in UK?


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## ian_m (11 Nov 2014)

Jose said:


> Does anybody know where I can buy HCL(Hydrochloric acid) in UK?


Ebay.

Would have thought sulphuric or nitric acid would be better to end up with sulphates or nitrates in the water rather than chlorides. The nitrates would be taken away by the plants, sulphates will probable precipitate out, but chlorides would remain in solution until removed by water changes.


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## Mr. Teapot (11 Nov 2014)

Could Jose try something less dangerous like citric acid first?


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## Jose (11 Nov 2014)

MMM you might be right ian_m, but remember many people dose CaCl2 without problems. I used to dose HCL and no problem but i did read somewhere to oxygenate my water first since Cl- might consume quite a bit of oxygen. Dont really know the reactions taking place so I will listen too you.

By the way I know it sounds dangerous cause they are strong acids, but its all about dissolution. You are just adding sulfates which is in our fertilizers and H+ ions (protons?) if we were to add H2SO4 (sulphuric acid)


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## dw1305 (11 Nov 2014)

Hi all,





ian_m said:


> Would have thought sulphuric or nitric acid would be better to end up with sulphates or nitrates in the water rather than chlorides.


We used to inject nitric acid into the well water on the nursery, it stopped the drip lines and spray heads from scaling up, and fed the plants.

HCl is fine, because it is a strong acid you don't add many Cl- ions. It is the "muriatic acid" recommended in the older fish keeping literature. Phosphoric acid based buffers are usually used for aquariums, partially because they will maintain water at ~pH6.5.

The real problem is the one that "Mr Teapot" identifies, weak acids, like citric, are a lot safer for you and the fish.

With all acids you will have problems with the pH climbing back up, it is because all the H+ ions are in solution and you don't have any reserve of acidity (it is just like buffering in alkaline systems, when you add NaOH you don't have any buffering, when you a carbonate you do).

You can create buffers that are stable at nearly all pH levels, but I wouldn't recommend it as an approach.

cheers Darrel


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## Jose (11 Nov 2014)

Ive tryed weak acids and there is no way of lowering the ph for a prolonged period of time for me. With strong acids Ive only had pH climbing back up when I had carbonates in the filter for example. So you add acid to the water but carbonates are not only there. But once you burn out most of the carbonates in the filter the ph stays amazingly constant and going down very little due to nitrification. These are just my observations and are no scientific data of course.


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## Mr. Teapot (11 Nov 2014)

I'm all for the mad laboratory approach (apologies to the scientists) but wouldn't it be simpler to buy a dirt cheap RO unit for £50 or collect free rainwater?


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## Jose (11 Nov 2014)

Mmmm I live in a shared house so.....dont know about the the rainwater but no ro system.


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## sciencefiction (11 Nov 2014)

Jose said:


> I do honestly think fish are better at lower ph. And I think many substrate producers know this like ADA.


It depends. I have hard water here, but not as hard as yours. My fish, some coming from soft water originally, have been doing well in hard water including corys that are already 6 years old and looking as brand new, and clown loaches( but I know they are very adaptable) In my opinion, and from what I've seen, soft water is good as long as it's stable. I've come across more problems with soft water than with hard. Fish tend to like stability rather than specific numbers.



dw1305 said:


> Depends upon whether you are interested in maintenance or breeding. It is high dGH/dKH that stops the eggs hatching.


You know, only from observation, but my two otocinclus spawned in a tank with low Kh and Gh, and TDS, no eggs hatched whatsoever but I moved one stalk of plant to a hard water tank without realising it may have an egg attached, and I ended up with a baby otto. Maybe it's for different reasons but it still counts.
With my corydoras, I thought it was the hard water at first but sometimes I had batches when 100% of them hatched and sometimes batches when just a few hatched. But I know corys are a lot easier to breed, hatch eggs, etc.. so I am not sure why the inconsistencies.


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## Vito (11 Nov 2014)

So Jose what's your solution to this problem as I also used to get a cloudy build as I had my tank running over a year and then realised the glass is completely covered in hard water stains which I can't seem to scrape off, I'm goin to have to investigate into some heave duty hard water stain removers and possibly an RO unit so the build up doesn't happen again.


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## ajm83 (12 Nov 2014)

Vito said:


> I had my tank running over a year and then realised the glass is completely covered in hard water stains which I can't seem to scrape off, I'm goin to have to investigate into some heave duty hard water stain removers and possibly an RO unit so the build up doesn't happen again.


Please post if you have success in this!
I tore mine down last year and tried cillit bang limescale remover, vinegar, shower scale remover. None had any  improvement on the damage. It's like the glass has been etched.


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## Jose (12 Nov 2014)

The only solution for this is to use water with less salts in it. Why? because adding an acid is just going to precipitate the carbonates which with time should end up in the walls just like you are all reporting (Please correct me someone if Im wrong here). So here in UK if I had my own home I would definately buy an RO unit or since there is always rain, get one of those rain tanks people have.

By the way I know many people have had succes with fish in harder water, but no body talks about their losses and Im sure there are a few, although you cant proof if its due to the hard water can you.

Sometimes people buy 20 cardinal tetras, put them in hard water, after a year half of them have died but after the initial adaptation process maybe they are well. But for having 10 cardinals in hard water you have paid a price (just my point of view) and yes they can be kept but is it worth it? Maybe some dont have losses so please do tell your story!

Cheers


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## Jose (12 Nov 2014)

dw1305 said:


> We used to inject nitric acid into the well water on the nursery, it stopped the drip lines and spray heads from scaling up, and fed the plants.


Would this prevent the scale on the walls of the aquarium Darrel? I am unsure.


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## ian_m (12 Nov 2014)

I have rock hard water and generally don't suffer losses when I get fish, though do occasionally get a few deaths couple of days/weeks after purchase, maybe, sometimes, not enough to worry about. Most fish, since moving high tech seem to last years, a lot longer than when I ran low tech, but I suspect due to frequent water changes and better filtration.

Most of the fish shops round here use 50% RO (or less) as it is easier to control water parameters and prevents scale build up on their equipment. Also use monster UV units (couple of KW) as obviously don't want infected fish infecting all their stock.

Can you buy RO water locally, round here is about £10 for 25litres.

I think you will find the impossible to remove scale is calcium sulphate (my Dad once scraped a sample from our shower and got in analysed in his work lab) and won't be shifted by most scale removers. I now have a whole house water softener so scale no longer appears, but water is not suitable for an aquarium. Since getting the softener most scale, calcium carbonate type, has dissolved away but a lot remained on shower screen glass. I tried loads of things to remove this scale (brick acid, Killrock etc etc), best eventually was Killrock Gel, left on for a while that finally got the glass clean.

You tank must be different somehow as, yes I get scale at water line, see below, note filter cover on right, but certainly nothing on the glass or plants or hardscape.


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## Jose (12 Nov 2014)

I suppose I used to get it everywhere because I had a coarse filter sponge which didnt eventually filter the particles. I am using a much better filter this time and I didnt give the dust time to settle on this one since I added acid and everything cleared up nicely.


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## Jose (12 Nov 2014)

ian_m said:


> I have rock hard water and generally don't suffer losses when I get fish, though do occasionally get a few deaths couple of days/weeks after purchase, maybe, sometimes, not enough to worry about. Most fish, since moving high tech seem to last years, a lot longer than when I ran low tech, but I suspect due to frequent water changes and better filtration.



I suspect we are doing a non natural selection here and will end up with fish that dont mind hard water at all in the long run.


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## parotet (12 Nov 2014)

Hi all

I also have liquid rock water. Scale at the waterline is something you have to live with... However it is not really the problem for me as I do frequent WC (once a week in a low tech tank and twice a week in a high tech) therefore the scale is still soft enough to be scrapped or dissolved with vinegar (standard kitchen vinegar in a paper towel). For the equipment, when I clean it, a vinegar bath works a treat also.

Regarding fish, I avoid really sensitive black water species (Rams, apistogramma, etc.) but for example my Cardinal tetra are for sure the most healthy looking fish I have. Also my new sparkling gouramis (said to be from soft waters) are doing very well (lately there's plenty of Daphnia around here and I have purchased quality dry food... This and water changes are really the key IMO). They won't probably breed, I know.

My main concern with hard water is co2 and nutrient uptake. My feeling is that I need to pump loads of co2 and micros to really reach the levels other people achieve with less, that's all. Unfortunately I live in an area where water is scarce (I cannot justify myself that much waste water, I cannot use the waste water for other things,nit is really a hassle to buy water at the LFS when you change so much water weekly) and I cannot use rainwater as we only have 300 liters/year and I live in an apartment... So my tanks will have to get adapted to this!

Jordi


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## Jose (12 Nov 2014)

Have you meassured KH parotet? It would be good to find out.


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## Jose (12 Nov 2014)

Has anyone kept moskito rasboras in this waters? From what Ive read they just dont live to their full life span/potential in hard water.


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## parotet (12 Nov 2014)

No, TBH I have only measured GH because the washing machine technician forgot his GH drop test here... that's all. All the hobbyist in my city report a KH in the tap water of 10-12 degrees. I do not have rocks in my tanks, just wood and JBL/aquasoiI, so I assume that this is the minimum I have but maybe more (BTW, do you know if KH can raise with time? I have noticed that GH is higher in my tanks' water than in the tap water). KH test is the only one I'd like to buy (I want to check my pH profiles in a week or so), but once you've measured your KH what do you do with it? Probably next time I want to use it will be out of date.

I keep Boraras urophtalmoides in one of my tanks and they do well (nice orange colours) but definitely they won't spwan. My GH is 21+. Again, water changes and good food will be the key. I've had problems in the longterm with Boraras  brigittae, not sure if it is related to water parameters.

Jordi


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## Jose (12 Nov 2014)

parotet said:


> No, TBH I have only measured GH because the washing machine technician forgot his GH drop test here... that's all


Hahah a bit cheeky that is. Anyway I wonder why a washing machine technician would want to know gh. I would think they would want to know kh more than anything. 

10-12 kh is more on the lines of the water I used to have in Spain which didnt really give me any considerable problems with fish, scale, or plants. This is why it would be good to give numbers when possible, so that we can really compare.

GH/KH can raise with time only if there is something in your tank adding it to the water like stones, certain substrates, ferts(only GH). So if the GH is changing its due to something (Probably your substrates?) .



parotet said:


> KH test is the only one I'd like to buy (I want to check my pH profiles in a wekk or so), but once you've measured your KH what do you do with it? Probably next time I want to use it will be out of date.



Not sure I get the question. Are you doing this to monitor your CO2?


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## parotet (12 Nov 2014)

Jose said:


> Anyway I wonder why a washing machine technician would want to know gh.


Have a look at your washing machine or dishwasher instructions, there is a device you have to adjust if you are in a high GH range. At least in the dishwasher it is related to the amount of salt used. The test left by the technician is a standard GH test (same degrees used we use in aquarium), but my guess is that it is 10x cheaper for not being "specially designed for your aquarium".



Jose said:


> 10-12 kh is more on the lines of the water I used to have in Spain


I live in Valencia (East coast): limestone, limestone and more limestone....



Jose said:


> GH/KH can raise with time only if there is something in your tank adding it to the water like stones, certain substrates, ferts(only GH). So if the GH is changing its due to something (Probably your substrates?) .


Ferts for sure...



Jose said:


> Are you doing this to monitor your CO2?


Well, a way of fine tuning/monitoring you Co2 injection is making a pH profile. According to your KH,  you need a certain pH drop to be sure you have good CO2 levels. Of course there are plenty of things that can make your KH or pH change during the readings, but we assume that during the measuraments (just one day, pH measures every hour) there will be no relevant changes in your KH and that all the changes measured in your pH profile will be due to Co2 injection.
The more KH the more buffer, so with high KH there is a rule of thumb saying that with 1 pH drop you can have good levels of Co2 (to be reach when lights are switched on). If you have low KH you will probably need more than 1 pH drop. It is another quite useful way (apart from what your drop checker is saying) to know if your CO2 levels are good or not

Jordi


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## Jose (12 Nov 2014)

With a higher KH your ph drop needs to be just one unit as well as if you have a lower kh. Be careful with this and read a lot(one can never know enough on CO2) since if you lower your ph 1.2 units (by mistake) you will be near 50ppm of CO2. So if the accuracy of your ph metre is +-0.1 then this is a bit risky so fish are the main sign to follow. Anyway this is more for a CO2 related thread. And there is no harm in doing a CO2 profile.

Cheers!


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