# Ferts, other nitrate salts



## mohamed elsorahy (8 Mar 2018)

HI EVERY BODY 
i am Mohamed from Egypt 
we have restrictions on the nitrates salts purchasing  
i want to go through doing my own ferts from some terrestrial plants ferts
do you have suggestions material?


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## ceg4048 (8 Mar 2018)

Hello,
          It's very unfortunate that there is a restriction. There are alternate compounds that will work, such as fertilizers containing Urea and ammonia, but you have to be VERY careful when using these types of product. Misunderstanding or careless use can result in algal blooms and can kill your fish.

That's why it's not a good idea to give you advice on which products until we can see exactly what products you have available for terrestrial plant foods.

Can you provide product names or provide photographs of the ingredients in English?

Cheers,


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## mohamed elsorahy (11 Mar 2018)

thank you very much
fertilizers i have already that contain N
UREA= 46% total N
DAP - DI AMMONIUM PHOSPHATE - 46% Total N
UAN - UREA AMMONIUM NITRATE (Liquid) total N 32 %
NPK- without guaranteed % of each ( sometimes 20-20-20)

and i have this salt  " ammonium ferrous sulfate "


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## Edvet (11 Mar 2018)

Can you find any powdered orchid fertilizer?


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## mohamed elsorahy (12 Mar 2018)

Edvet said:


> Can you find any powdered orchid fertilizer?


Unfortunately NO


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## ian_m (12 Mar 2018)

mohamed elsorahy said:


> thank you very much
> fertilizers i have already that contain N
> UREA= 46% total N
> DAP - DI AMMONIUM PHOSPHATE - 46% Total N
> ...


No good as both urea and ammonium salts are toxic to fish. Great for plants though.


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## mohamed elsorahy (12 Mar 2018)

ian_m said:


> No good as both urea and ammonium salts are toxic to fish. Great for plants though.


In that case 
i can use it in fish less tank ?
in what dose ?


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## ceg4048 (14 Mar 2018)

Hi Mohamed,
                     None of these products are ideal for fish, however the best choice for Nitrogen, of the ones you listed is the Urea. The toxicity is much more likely to occur if the pH of your tank water is 7 or higher. 

You also did not mention if your tank is CO2 injected or not. This will make all the difference.
If you are using CO2 then this will drive the pH below 7. You can dissolve 3 grams of Urea in 1 liter of water and dose 1 ml of this mixture per 50 L of tank water 3 times per week. This takes care of N, but P and K will need to come from a different source.
If you cannot find another source of P or K then you can use the 20-20-20 in very small amounts (I haven't done any calculations because the numbers do not tell you what salt comprises the numbers). 

If you are not using CO2 then you can still use the Urea but you have to use even smaller amounts, like 0.3 grams to 1 L and you only dose this once a week or once every two weeks. Please note that the higher your pH the more toxic this will be.

I really don't like to recommend  using these fertilizers because as other posters have mentioned, it's so easy to kill your fish if you make a mistake, and, you can also induce algal blooms if you are not careful. However, since you have no other option it might be worth a try.

Cheers,


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## mohamed elsorahy (14 Mar 2018)

thank you guys for your support
from what i understand so far
that the most suitable fert from what i have is urea but with restriction regarding pH for the healthy of live stock in the aquarium
so
in fish less aquarium there is no threats although can have algal  blooming
i think i will prepare a small tank for my experiments


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## mohamed elsorahy (14 Mar 2018)

ceg4048 said:


> Hi Mohamed,
> 
> You also did not mention if your tank is CO2 injected or not. This will make all the difference.
> 
> If you are not using CO2 then you can still use the Urea but you have to use even smaller amounts, like 0.3 grams to 1 L and you only dose this once a week or once every two weeks. Please note that the higher your pH the more toxic this will be.



NO CO2 injected 
just liquid carbon ( glutaraldehyde 1.6 %)


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## Oldguy (20 Oct 2018)

mohamed elsorahy said:


> restrictions on the nitrates salts


No easy answer, the UK has a ban on potassium nitrate sales to domestic users. Other nitrate salts still available. Good luck with your experimental tank.


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## ian_m (20 Oct 2018)

Oldguy said:


> The UK has a ban on potassium nitrate sales to domestic users


Not convinced about this as easily available on-line as plant fertiliser and I have seen recently in a "health food shop" for curing meats. I think you are confusing ammonium nitrate which is controlled.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (20 Oct 2018)

I believe you can actually make Potassium Nitrate from stuff you can buy from your local store. Not sure how much you would be able to make and would depend on the size of your tank whether it would be cost effective. You can use instant Ice packs which contain Ammonium Nitrate and mix with Lo Salt alternative products which contain Potassium instead of Chloride. Once crystallised the end result is Potassium Nitrate. Can you not find anywhere that will dissolve the KNO3 into water then send you the container?


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## HiNtZ (20 Oct 2018)

Oldguy said:


> No easy answer, the UK has a ban on potassium nitrate sales to domestic users. Other nitrate salts still available. Good luck with your experimental tank.



This is incorrect. There is a ban on corrosive liquids to under 18's and identification must be sought by the seller as to identify who bought what on what day and at what shop. If you buy online the seller automatically has your ID as sites like amazon and ebay have age limits in order to have an account and your address is supplied on the receipt.

Funny story - a guy bought 50kg of KNO3 online delivered to his house in the UK and the police turned up at his door three days later asking why he bought so much fertiliser >_<


As per the OP - the only other source I use personally for N is MGNO3

Although regulated, ammonium nitrate isn't too hard to find if you know a farmer.


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## Oldguy (21 Oct 2018)

HiNtZ said:


> This is incorrect.


Hope is so, did a a quick on line search found only suppliers willing to deal with limited companies not individuals. Many sites indicated pot nitrate for sale but search engines only hit on 'nitrate'.  With a friends network there are opportunities for work arounds but relations are getting tighter on many useful reagents ie stuff that works. Could you please send me a link to a dealer that sells pot nitrate to individuals.


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## Oldguy (21 Oct 2018)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> I believe you can actually make Potassium Nitrate


Easiest way but fraught with hazards and costs is to neutralize pot hydroxide, available from eBay, with nitric acid, not readily available, easier to get pot nitrate. A post from HiNtZ says you can buy pot nitrate. I only did a quick internet search. Like you I have been looking at relative solubilities. As a kid of 12yr I used to make my own sodium hydroxide from my Dad's garden lime and Mum's washing soda. I am in no rush as I have some lab grade left and friends in low places, but things appear to becoming tighter. [Off topic, still got the spanners on the central heating]


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## AverageWhiteBloke (21 Oct 2018)

Oldguy said:


> Could you please send me a link to a dealer that sells pot nitrate to individuals.



I'm getting confused now, are we talking about in Egypt? Most of our sponsors sell Pot Nitrate to individuals in the UK


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## Oldguy (21 Oct 2018)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> I'm getting confused now


The UK. 
On GOV.UK site: Supplying Explosive Precursors and Poisons as of 1st July 2018 the following are:

* 1.2 Reportable substances*
Explosive precursors:
ammonium nitrate, acetone, hexamine,* potassium nitrate*, (my italics & bold) sodium nitrate, calcium nitrate, calcium ammonium nitrate, aluminium powders, magnesium powders, magnesium nitrate hexahydrate.

I think some suppliers are just saying pot nitrate is banned because they do not want the paper work or are erring on the side of caution.  There is chatter on the eBay suppliers site that is treating mud on this. I do not know what is involved with 'Reportable substances'. Perhaps keeping a record of customers & advertising the use of pot nitrate for food use or as a fertilizer and selling it small amounts complies with the regs I do not know but for instance  Hydrogen Peroxide stronger than 12% you need a license. I buy mine at 11% no license.

Some eBay sellers are selling pot nitrate but one company that I have done business with in the past and has a small ebay presence no longer offers it and will only sell to limited companies from its main site. With other suppliers its business as usual.

I do know about the Law of Unintended Consequences and it is a pain.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (21 Oct 2018)

Oldguy said:


> Some eBay sellers are selling pot nitrate but one company that I have done business with in the past and has a small ebay presence no longer offers it and will only sell to limited companies from its main site. With other suppliers its business as usual.



Yeah I think that's just Ebay's policy but for all other online shops it's business as usual. Not sure if they have any restrictions on quants but you seem to be able to buy in 500g bags as many as you want. http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/fertilisers/dry-chemicals/dry-salts/potassium-nitrate-kno3.html


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## rebel (21 Oct 2018)

Why don't you use the 20-20-20 in small amounts under a 2mm grained sand cap (3cm)? You should be able to grow many plants using this method.

K2SO4/Ca SO4 should be available as garden fertilisers.


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## rebel (21 Oct 2018)

Other option is to add those ammonium salts to a cycled bucket with a powerful filter. Then in a few days, add that water to your tank.... I wonder whether this would add some form of organic-nitrates which are safe for fish.....


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## Oldguy (21 Oct 2018)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Yeah I think that's just Ebay's policy


Yes I think it is, though I just bought some from eBay while the going was good. Though eBay sales should be compliant. Message from a moderator spoke of name & address require and being 18yrs or older, which fits eBay rules but not over the counter sales. I also think that as a ingredient in a branded product it drops off the radar.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (21 Oct 2018)

I don't tend to buy it from eBay and stick to known suppliers. There was a thread in here about people buying salts off there and they were a bit spurious. There was also people selling kno3 containers which said didn't contain any salt just container only to get round eBay policy but it was all a bit nudge nudge wink wink.

Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


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## HiNtZ (21 Oct 2018)

Oldguy said:


> Hope is so, did a a quick on line search found only suppliers willing to deal with limited companies not individuals. Many sites indicated pot nitrate for sale but search engines only hit on 'nitrate'.  With a friends network there are opportunities for work arounds but relations are getting tighter on many useful reagents ie stuff that works. Could you please send me a link to a dealer that sells pot nitrate to individuals.



You could register a ltd company tomorrow if you wanted to..... no restrictions.

Anyway, I get my KNO3 from APF (Aquariumplantfood.co.uk)

Also would like to echo what AWB said - keep away from ebay.


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## Oldguy (21 Oct 2018)

I have one, but I want to keep it dormant for the present. For the most part, for dry salts, I go to a garden centre. For Iron & Iron with Trace Elements I have a supply from Solufeed, though the quantities are a bit industrial. Still the wife does love her garden. Thanks for flagging up Aquariumplantfood.co.uk. Looks an interesting site.


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