# useing ie,why am i geting ploblems....beginer.....



## lee (28 Dec 2008)

im useing the ie method off james tank,why am i geting plants with rust spots on them,is it somthing to do with the ph,kh,gh,wot should these be for best result ,iv been useing tap water ,iv done tests on it  ph7.4,gh,240,kh160mg,iv just bort an ro system because im going to keep discus,iv mix 1/4 tap to 3/4 ro and the tests come out at ph7.0, gh8.0 kh5.0 i have not put none in tank yet, do you think this will solve problems, once i do this ,and i was going to add a bitt 

of (mag)epsem salt ....im a beginer....dont realy no wot im doing .....

just brought all the equipment a mouth ago

240l tank
4x39w t5 arcader light
co2 x1bubble a second
substrate x eco complete
power flow
air stone comes on at night


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## GreenNeedle (28 Dec 2008)

need more details of your tank and regime.  Please don't use text speak as it can be annoying for some of our members.

No need for testing and its EI which is a regime that means no testing is needed.

From the little info that is of use from your first post you have highish light and very low CO2!!  have you read the EI method through properly?

We want details of filtration, planting, anything and pictures could also be helpful

AC


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## chris1004 (29 Dec 2008)

I wouldn't start with discus if I were you especially if your not sure of what you are doing they are very delicate fish that need very good water quality and due to their value mistakes are expensive. 

Personally though as you have an RO unit I would use 100% RO water and add a remineralising agent to produce your required water parameters. I use 'Denerle ReMineral+' and add 1 level measuring spoon (supplied) to 40 litres of RO water with a TDS (total disolved solids) of 0 (tested using a TDS meter). I do a 20% water change twice a week in my 250 litre tank and test weekly with API test kits.

My water parametres are: nitrate 10ppm, KH 4, GH 8, PH 6.5 , phosphates around 0.5ppm, ammonia and nitrite 0ppm, Co2 around 30-35ppm and a temperature of 30C. Ideally the water could be a little softer but I like to keep it at these levels so as to avoid any possibility of a ph crash which can occur if the kh is to low. 

Basically if your going to keep discus keep your nitrates low and your temperature high.


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## GreenNeedle (29 Dec 2008)

http://www.barrreport.com/co2-aquatic-p ... tanks.html
http://www.barrreport.com/fish-planted- ... -tank.html


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## chris1004 (29 Dec 2008)

I have read through some of the posts on ei systems (on this forum and the links provided in the last post) and kind of understood most of it (although most of the chemistry went straight over my head) and I have now got to wondering just how close to using this 'ei' system I am. My tank parametres are laid out in the last but one previous post but I will add some more info here to enlarge the overall picture somewhat. 

Wrightly or wrongly I am a fan of the JBL range of plant care products, my substrate has a 3cm base of JBL aquabasis plus, but no heater cable. I add 10ml of Ferrapol to every 40litres of water (as well as the Denerle remineral +) for my water changes and I dose with jbl ferropol 24 on a daily basis to the manufacturers recomendations. I have a uv steriliser running on the filtration system and I am dosing co2 via a pressurised co2 system. My lights are 2x54w T5 HO flourescent tubes (both Denerle one a "special plant" and the other an "amazon day" tube).

According to the manufacturers blurb on the products that I use I seem to have my bases covered when it comes to the dosing of my tank. From the 'Denerle ReMineral+' I am using (aproximatly 25grames per week) I am dosing calcium ca2, magnesium, sodium, potassium, hydrogen carbonate, sulphate, chloride and trace elements of boron, flouride, iodine and others besides. From the 'Ferropol' I am dosing (25ml per week) iron, pottasium, sulphar and trace elements of manganeese, molybdenum, zinc, boron, cobalt and copper in a liquid form easily digestable by the plants. Additionally I introduce 5 drops of Ferropol 24 each day which according to the manufacturers blurb contains a daily dose of a variety of trace elements to promote healthy plant growth.    

The tank is heavily planted and the plants grow well and I have no issues with algae, the nitrates are very low and the fish are happy and healthy.


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## GreenNeedle (29 Dec 2008)

The answer to your question is:



> The tank is heavily planted and the plants grow well and I have no issues with algae, the nitrates are very low and the fish are happy and healthy.



It doesn't matter how close to EI you are!!!  If it ain't broke don't fix it.  I would however keep an eye on the CO2 ppm at that temperature.  O can get depleted much quicker at higher temps.

Nitrate and Phosphate are there in reasonable amounts (assuming the results are correct ) so you're on a winner.  Forget about if you are doing the 'sone thing' if the method you are using works to your satisfaction 

AC


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## Mark Evans (29 Dec 2008)

chris1004 said:
			
		

> have read through some of the posts on ei systems (on this forum and the links provided in the last post) and kind of understood most of it (although most of the chemistry went straight over my head) and I have now got to wondering just how close to using this 'ei' system I am



like Andy hints at, just don't worry about it. all i did ~(and getting amazing results) is pick your size tank and use the corresponding amount of dosing. good god, i even dose heavier than stated just to see how far i can push things. do have co2 and lighting in place though   
i don't get the science bit i just know it works....i can drive a car, but don't have a clue where to put the oil   you get the drift?

EI rocks fact!

mark


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## chris1004 (30 Dec 2008)

Thanks for the advice about the oxygen ,I do try to keep a close eye on things and everything appears ok but I will certainly bear this in mind and may also fit additional airation for night time as I was previously contemplating doing from what I have heard/read elswhere aswell. But the fish seem fine even early in the morning, so is it uneccessary expense/work or a wise precaution? Should I also be testing for oxygen and what levels should I be aiming to achieve?

As for the accuracy of the test results I cannot be certain, all I know is that I can only be as accurate as the test kit allows, which according to PFK and what I have read elsewhere isn't very accurate at all  ....... Which is an area for concern :? , hence my interest in how close I am to having an ei system and how much further would I need to go to have a true ei system and is this possible using my current fetilisers / water treatments? Or would it be preferable to delve into the chemistry of fertilisers as a complete novice with all the potential for mistakes that may ensue :? ?  

On the other hand as you quite rightly say "if it aint broke don't fix it", but how can I be certain it ain't broke if I can't trust my test results  ?

I love this hobby of ours its just so damn interesting, every time I seem to seek what at first appears to be a small snipet of info I seem to end up with more questions than answers and a plethora of information to digest in the middle, I am a sponge    .........


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## GreenNeedle (30 Dec 2008)

Don't worry about the levels unless 





> fish are happy and healthy


 this changes

I would stick to what you have if it is working.  Don't worry about EI.  EI is mainly a setup for making it easier to succeed.  If you are succeeding with using a different method then thats fine.  It would be quite hard to implement EI using an off the shelf fert.

The 'EI - no more test Kits',<------ is just a method.  You can be sure your method ain't broke if you have minimal algae.  Water parameters and testing aren't needed to see if your methods are working.  The results with the plants give you that.  You can apply this to the fish too.  If they are OK, healthy, nice colour, enjoying life then why test?  You may test find something that 'the discus bible' says is wrong and 'fix it'  then see a few weeks down the line that something is now wrong!!!  If you can see from the fish and the plants that the combo you are using is working then leave well alone and continue as you are.  Don't try to reach a target that other people say is the correct way because that would mean changing what you have.

If you really are wanting to investigate EI tanks in combination with discus then check out Tom Barr's Behemoth tank.  This is a 1600 USG (not litres) tank using full EI that Tom setup in the Esquire house.  The larger you go the harder it is to keep everything working.  When he first showed this a lot of the discus people were shaking their heads, putting on their white frocks and making a pilgrimage to Stonehenge to sacrifice their daughters!!! 
http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=155875

Many pages so take your time but look at the results and yes that is Tom Barr himself 'swimming' in the tank whilst setting it up!!!

So continue the good work.  wish I had room, enough cash and the knowledge for discus but then I am a lazy hobbyist and not one for parameters, temperatures, wormers etc. 

AC


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## chris1004 (30 Dec 2008)

[quote="SuperColey1"Don't try to reach a target that other people say is the correct way because that would mean changing what you have] 


I have only got this far in this hobby because I have been doing just that....    

I won't be changing anything for a while but I am interested in this ei thing now, initially I was trying to help Lee with his question albeit trying to disuade him from running before he could walk with regard to keeping discus, but maybe I got hold of the wrong end of the stick, I certainly seem to have stolen his thread (sorry lee).

I am new to this forum and I can't believe I never found it before I am like a kid in a candy shop.


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## chris1004 (30 Dec 2008)

How do you get the quote thing right? as i said I am new to this forum.


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## GreenNeedle (30 Dec 2008)

quote (in square brackets both ends)  then the copy/paste part then /quote (in square brackets both ends)

AC


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## Ed Seeley (30 Dec 2008)

chris1004 said:
			
		

> How do you get the quote thing right? as i said I am new to this forum.



Or use the quote cutton top right!  Just make sure you don't delete the parts in brackets at either end of the text!


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## chris1004 (31 Dec 2008)

cheers guys I will try that next time I try to quote someone.


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