# Chelated Fe



## Vazkez

Hello guys,

I have a quick question please.
I try to use Flourish Iron however it only make my water cloudy because of my hard water 19 dh.
I tried probably everything even dose minimum amounts like 1 ml daily but no success.
My plants suffer from Fe deficiency and I like to sort this out.

My question is will dry chelated iron do this same or it will work.
Also if you know how to sort the Flourish Iron and make it work that would be even better.

By the way I am not dosing Macro and Micro at same day. I know people will ask about this.

Thank you very much.

Vaz


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## ian_m

Plants suffering FE deficiency is very rare, 99.9999% of peoples plant issues is lack of carbon.

Chelated Fe | UK Aquatic Plant Society


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## Vazkez

Hello Ian,

Thk for the reply however this doesn't answer my question 
About the CO2 I do not have any melting, alge or anything like that but I have pale new grow and between veins on anubias leaf (not like Mg deficiency). Red plants are not red and so on. 

Thk


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## dw1305

Hi all,
Depending  a little bit upon the substrate (it it the REDOX values of the substrate that make a difference, not whether it contains laterite etc.) it may be iron deficiency, but as "Ian_m" says most deficiencies of Fe are actually macro-element (including carbon) deficiencies.

If we assume that the problem is with the hardness of the water, and that the chelated iron is immediately precipitating out of solution (that is the cloudiness), then we need to use a different chelator, one specifically designed for high pH situations. EDTA is the cheapest option, but Fe-DTPA, Fe-EDDHA are better (but more expensive) options. Fe Gluonate would be another option <Fe Gluconate dry powder | UK Aquatic Plant Society>







cheers Darrel


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## jose_j

Hi all,

I'm dosing DIY quelated iron with nice results. Just in case it would be useful for you here you have my recipe.

Reactives are:

Ferrous Sulphate Heptahydrate (FeSO4.7H2O) and 
Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid disodium salt dihydrate (EDTA 2Na 2H2O)

The recipe adjusted for a 100L tank is:

weight 3.50 grams of FeSO4 7H2O and dissolve them in 300mL of boiling distilled water (or RO water) using a stainless steel recipient. Once dissolved the iron sulphate add 6 grams of EDTA 2Na 2H2O stirring until fully dissolved. (reactive order is very important, first the iron sulphate then the EDTA). Remove from heat and leave at room temperature until cooling. Add distilled (or RO water) to get a final volume of 500mL. Protect from light and store in the fridge.

Every 7.11 mL of this solution will increase Fe concentration in the 100L tank in 0.1 ppm

If your tank has different volume just adjust the values. E.g., if it is a 200L tank you will need to double up the dosage in order to increase 0.1ppm Fe. And so on.

Cheers,

Jose


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## dw1305

Hi all,





jose_j said:


> Ferrous Sulphate Heptahydrate (FeSO4.7H2O) and Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid disodium salt dihydrate (EDTA 2Na 2H2O)


 You can buy FeEDTA ready synthesised, but if you use NaEDTA, the Fe++ ions from the dissolution of FeSO4.7H2O will replace the Na+ ions bound by the EDTA. This is because the formation constants for monovalent ions are fraction of those for multivalent ions. Fe EDTA is actually almost the most stable form, <CEM 333 EDTA Formation Constants> and will replace nearly all other metal ions. 





jose_j said:


> Protect from light and store in the fridge.


 The only reason that Fe++(+) ions  ever become available is that the bond is photosensitive and degraded by light. You can use a similar approach for the other chelators.

The problem in hard water is with the EDTA, as the pH rises above pH6 less and less of the Fe ions are available.

cheers Darrel


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## Vazkez

Hi de1305,

Thk for the info  Great post just what I needed. My substrate is JI no. 3 from Hombase covered by gravel (I do not know if that's help you)
So if I understand right I can throw my Flourish Iron out from the window :S
Also my "only" macros deficiency is in Mg and K as my water has high Ca (133ppm/l) and only 5 ppm/l of Mg for example. I am dosing those two  (Mg and K) daily in evening. I could post picture of my dosing in evening as I am in work atm and do not have access to my PC.
However I will order some of the ETDA Fe from plantfood webpage.

Hello Jose,

Thk you too  I might try you elixir as soon as my dry Fe arrive 


Thk to you all for the info


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## dw1305

Hi all,





Vazkez said:


> However I will order some of the ETDA Fe from plantfood webpage.


 FeEDTA should help, if you inject CO2 and the pH gets below pH7? it will definitely do. If the water is always alkaline, and you are still getting precipitation then FeDPTA or FeEEDHA would be even better (but more expensive and difficult to find). 





Vazkez said:


> So if I understand right I can throw my Flourish Iron out from the window


 I've just had a google and it looks like "Flourish Iron" is ferric (Fe++) gluconate, you can ignore all the blurb on their web site about "ferrous rather than ferric", in the oxygenated water it will all be Fe+++ (ferric) ions almost instantly <Seachem. Flourish Iron>. My suspicion is that the iron is forming iron carbonates (or similar) and precipitating out of solution. 





Vazkez said:


> Also my "only" macros deficiency is in Mg and K as my water has high Ca (133ppm/l) and only 5 ppm/l of Mg for example. I am dosing those two (Mg and K) daily in evening. I could post picture of my dosing in evening as I am in work atm and do not have access to my PC.


 If you don't dose any nitrogen at all? that is almost certainly the problem. Have a look at the "Duckweed index", it is a low tech. method where you use the health and colour of a floating plant as an index of when to add nutrients <Low maintainence, long term sustrate | UK Aquatic Plant Society> & <Plants with Deficiency of something | UK Aquatic Plant Society>.

cheers Darrel


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## Vazkez

Hmm that's a bit a problem with the PH... My water PH is 8.5 after 24 hours without CO2. My normal PH when CO2 is on is between 7.2 and 7.4 however if I bring it under 7.2 my fish grasping for air. So the PH will be never under 7.0.
Is this mean that EDTA Fe will not work as well ?

No I did not dose any NO so far, however I have KNO3 at home for later use. The reason why is my tank is only two months old and I had (dunno if I still have) huge NO3 spikes (80ppm/l) as well as my water has 17ppm/l NO3 in on it's own. 

However my Amazon frogbit acting a bit strange (few leaves decay) last few days. I will have look on that threat. I do not have any test kit at home atm but I get one soon.

I will post my dosing in the evening for you and some more info.

Thank you very much for all the help 

.Vaz.


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## Vazkez

*UPDATE:*

Few more info about my tank and dose for any one interesting to have a look:

*Tank*: Juwel rio 125 (30gal)
*Light*: 2x29W T5 (comes with the tank) + 2x24W T5 via Hagen glo
*Water parameters* (from Anglian water):
*°dH*: 19.071
*Calcium carbonate*: 335.75 mg/l
*Ca*: 134.3 mg/l
*Fe*: <7 µg/l (sorry dunno how to transfer this to ppm/l)
*Mg*: 5.25 mg/l
*NO3*: 19.8 - 39.7 mg/l
*K*: 3.95 mg/l

*My doseing atm is as below:*

*Please note before start flaming: *This is still work in progress, I am still trying to tailor my dose to my plants need.

*As always any help is great *

I still have some liquide fert from last set up so as soon as I finish those I will transfer to dry....
In Sunday I change 50% water (60l) and dose 12g Mg to bring it to the rotation 5:1. I used to dose all macros every other day however from the time I dose Mg / K daily my plants do much better.





*Yes: *means Tropica plant nutrition (dose in morning)
*Seachem: *Seachem trace
*Fe: *Flourish Fe which I do not dose anymore (you know why)

*Some pictures of my plants:*

*

*













Thk vm for all help 

Vaz


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## Victor

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> Depending a little bit upon the substrate (it it the REDOX values of the substrate that make a difference, not whether it contains laterite etc.) it may be iron deficiency, but as "Ian_m" says most deficiencies of Fe are actually macro-element (including carbon) deficiencies.
> 
> If we assume that the problem is with the hardness of the water, and that the chelated iron is immediately precipitating out of solution (that is the cloudiness), then we need to use a different chelator, one specifically designed for high pH situations. EDTA is the cheapest option, but Fe-DTPA, Fe-EDDHA are better (but more expensive) options. Fe Gluonate would be another option <Fe Gluconate dry powder | UK Aquatic Plant Society>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cheers Darrel


 Hi, Darrel! I'm using chelated iron 20 % by glycine. Do you think it's a good choice to a ph between 6 and 7? Thank you.


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## ceg4048

Vazkez said:


> Please note before start flaming: This is still work in progress, I am still trying to tailor my dose to my plants need.


Which is a classic blunder. That is not the way to better plant health. Dosing should commence according to the standard EI values. You can NOT tell what plants need by using test kits.

As usual in this hobby there is a misdiagnosis. I see no evidence of Fe deficiency. There is nothing in those images that more KNO3 and better CO2 won't fix.

Cheers,


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## Vazkez

ceg4048 said:


> Which is a classic blunder. That is not the way to better plant health. Dosing should commence according to the standard EI values. You can NOT tell what plants need by using test kits.
> 
> As usual in this hobby there is a misdiagnosis. I see no evidence of Fe deficiency. There is nothing in those images that more KNO3 and better CO2 won't fix.
> 
> Cheers,


 
Hello Ceg,

thank you for your feedback  I read many of your posts and I value your oppinion, however I did start with EI recomended doseing standarts. My plants was dying so I tryed play with it a bit. From the time I dose Mg and K daily my plants start to recover. I do not use any test kits I am trying to learn from observation, changes and great posts like yours, dw 1305, Jose and others folks who do not mind help .... . I killed many plants in process I have to admin, however I proud I did not kill any fish so far 

If yout think I should start to dose KNO3 (even if my water has it so high) I will follow as I know you prb know what you saying. I will start from 2ppm 3x in week and see if things get better or shall I add more ?

Thank you for help 


Vaz


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## ceg4048

Hi Vaz,
			That's good news that you are not using kits to determine the nutrient values, but it's still bad news that you are not dosing KNO3 just because someone says that your water is high in NO3.

This is how people get into trouble, and the problem is that it hypnotizes you into thinking that NO3 levels are OK. So, if you actually do have a Nitrogen shortfall, and if you have already made up your mind that you have sufficient Nitrogen, then you will really have problems searching for ghosts.

Only when you are adding ALL the nutrients listed in the recipe can you troubleshoot effectively, because that way you KNOW that all the nutrients are in the tank. If you have deficiencies after that then you know that the problem can only be related to CO2, flow and distribution.
Add the full amount according to the recipe.

Really people why is everyone so afraid of KNO3? The food you are adding to the tank is MORE TOXIC to your fish and causes more algae than KNO3, so add the full amount and get on with it.

The Matrix isn't real......

Cheers,


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## Vazkez

Hi Ceg,



ceg4048 said:


> Really people why is everyone so afraid of KNO3?


 
yeah you right... Including me 

However you are probably right as I spoted some BGA just now and how I read in one of your post that this is due bad N.
I added to my shedule 2 grams of KNO3 (starting today) 3/week. This should give me 10.22 ppm/l per dose and also bring my K a bit up as well what I am happy about 

I will report back how it will go 

Thank you very much all of you guys is nice that you do not mind to help ppl who just learning and asking same question over again 

Vaz.


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## Vazkez

Hi again,

I wanted to wait a bit longer to report back, however I can see huge difference already after 3th dose of NO3. I had to be blind as I had big stunned grow....Now after few dose of N my plants start really kicking off  especially stem plants. So thank you guys again I finally realised that I should keep it simple and do not believe some reports....

However this might sound stupid but I would like to add more Fe anyway for my red plants (currently green).
Darrel said that EDTA Fe will work best under PH 7 what I can not have. So is this mean I have to look for DPTA Fe ?
If yes could someone provide a link where could I buy it please?

Thank you again 

Vaz


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## ceg4048

Red plants do not care any more about Fe than green plants do.
Red plants that look green have nothing to do with an Fe deficiency.

There is a lot of things going on with the appearance of pigments in leaves, none of which as anything to do with what type of chelate you are using. If you think you need more iron, just add more of what you have, instead of spending more money.

Cheers,


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## Vazkez

Hi Ceg,

Did I get this wrong or something but I was thinking that chelated means if the Fe is immediately precipitating out from water or not. That's why I can not use the Flourish Iron.... .
I am sorry if this is a stupid question but I am not really good in chemistry 



ceg4048 said:


> Red plants that look green have nothing to do with an Fe deficiency.


 
Also if you do not mind could you be so kind and be more specific? Like what can I do to bring my plant to become red? If we do not count light as I think I can not go higher (currently have 106W over 120L).

Thank you


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## ceg4048

Vazkez said:


> Did I get this wrong or something but I was thinking that chelated means if the Fe is immediately precipitating out from water or not. That's why I can not use the Flourish Iron.... .


Hi Vazkez,
				 Chelation is the method by which a valuable chemical is captured and held in handcuffs until that chemical can be transported to it's destination. It is then released at the destination. Normally, the chemical of interest is a metal, which are usually highly reactive. Unfortunately, metals such as Iron, Zinc, Manganese and so forth are so reactive that they have the tendency to react with the first thing that comes along and therefore be lost, or even worse, become toxic. This is the case with Iron. Iron reacts easily with anything. If you have anything made of Iron, you'll know that it will rust very easily, and that's because it's reacting with Oxygen, so you get a precipitated called Iron Oxide - rust. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to separate the Oxygen from the Iron, so basically, the Iron is lost.

The trick of chelation is to combine the metal with another chemical so that this prevents the metal for combining with Oxygen or something else, but that the chemical with which it is combined is not difficult to "unchain" when it get's to the destination.

EDTA is a type of acid which acts as a "spiders web" for positively charged metal ions.

It looks like this ordinarily (N is Nitrogen, O is Oxygen, His Hydrogen)




But when it comes into contact with the metal ion, it traps the metal by changing the shape based on the distribution of charges across the structure (the M is the metal ion such as Fe++)




When this complexed structure finds it's way into the plant tissue it is released by the EDTA and is then immediately recaptured by the chelating agents in the plant. These chelates are based on the the chemical called Nicotinamine. You may recognize parts of this chemical's name from cigarettes. Plants generally have loads of this chemical because it's a very effective chelate and there are always toxic metals, which are useful, so they are "sequestered" by the abundant forms of Nicotinamine chelating agents always present in the plant. That's how the plant keeps from poisoning itself and that's why plants are good at removing metals that are dissolved in the water.

The problem with EDTA is that it's attraction to the metals is weakened as the pH of the water approaches neutral (7). It works much better at low pH. Also, hard water interferes with EDTA's ability to hold on to the metal ion. When this bond fails, then the metal ion is released into the water and it immediately reacts with a variety of negatively charged particles in the water. The most highly reactive negatively charged ion is PO4. So, just like your iron bar in air, the two combine to form a compound, which naturally, is called Iron Phosphate, which happens to have very poor solubility in water.

Not every Iron ion reacts with every PO4, but the reaction reduces the total amount of Fe and PO4 that makes it into the plants tissues directly via the leaf.

The thing about Iron though, is that the plants don't really need a lot and in a high tech tank, within an hour or so the plants has as much Fe as it needs, so it really is not a big problem. If you lost 50% of the Iron then just dose more often and it will get there.

The problem in this hobby is that people do not approach Fe rationally. The Fe lovers grossly overvalue Fe and assume that anything that goes wrong with their plants is due to an Iron deficiency. The Fe haters grossly undervalue Fe and they always assume that algal blooms are attributable to Fe in the water.




Vazkez said:


> Also if you do not mind could you be so kind and be more specific? Like what can I do to bring my plant to become red? If we do not count light as I think I can not go higher (currently have 106W over 120L).


Well, unfortunately, no one has any idea, other than massive lighting, exactly how to control red in plants. The best that you can do is to ensure high nutrient loading (of all nutrients) in general, and high CO2. As the plants grow closer to the light they will tend to pump out more pigments to protect the leaves. It's not just red, it's all colors because there are many pigment types.

You can also just get plants that are always red, like the various type of Althernanthera or Rotala red.

In some cases, folks were able to get  the color changes by using less intense lighting but by changing the spectrum of the lighting to more blue/red content. That's not verified though. You didn't mention what plant this is in any case so it's unclear. There are many reasons for color pigments to appear and they are not all the same reasons for every plant.

Cheers,


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## Vazkez

Thank you Ceg,

honestly I had to read it about 3 times to finally get it but I think I know what you mean now. However very nice post.
Yeah I was thinking to get red plants which stays red no matter what. Unfortunately Rotala always dei in my tank... Only plant which I have like this is Nymphaea lotus zenkeri red (love this plant).
Well the plant I am trying to get red is Didiplis Diandra. I know it can be very hard with this plant but I did plant her on nice spot where she could make very nice contrast. At least if I could have the tiny red flowers on it :S

Vaz


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## Victor

ceg4048 said:


> Chelation is the method by which a valuable chemical is captured and held in handcuffs until that chemical can be transported to it's destination. It is then released at the destination. Normally, the chemical of interest is a metal, which are usually highly reactive.


 Hi, Ceg! Do you think glycine is a good metal chelator to a ph between 6 and 7?


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## ceg4048

Hi Victor,
			 I've not used any amino acid chelated products, so I'm not really sure how strong the metal bonds with the amino acid glycine. Generally, amino acids and organic acids such as citric are fairly good chelators and I know that farmers and gardeners use amino acid chelated traces which can be used in soils and for direct foliar uptake (applying directly to the leaf), but how these behave when put in a tank I'm not sure.

If it's available cheaply then it's worth trying. It will be easy to tell if used on fast growing stems. All you have to look for is paling of the new leaves and that will tell you if it's not working. Sounds like a pretty good project.

Cheers,


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## Victor

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> Depending  a little bit upon the substrate (it it the REDOX values of the substrate that make a difference, not whether it contains laterite etc.) it may be iron deficiency, but as "Ian_m" says most deficiencies of Fe are actually macro-element (including carbon) deficiencies.
> 
> If we assume that the problem is with the hardness of the water, and that the chelated iron is immediately precipitating out of solution (that is the cloudiness), then we need to use a different chelator, one specifically designed for high pH situations. EDTA is the cheapest option, but Fe-DTPA, Fe-EDDHA are better (but more expensive) options. Fe Gluonate would be another option <Fe Gluconate dry powder | UK Aquatic Plant Society>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cheers Darrel


I'm using Fe chelated by glycine (amino acid?). Looking at the chat it has about only 10 % of chelated iron? So, it's the worst option?


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## dw1305

Hi all,





> I'm using Fe chelated by glycine (amino acid?). Looking at the chat it has about only 10 % of chelated iron? So, it's the worst option?


 Theoretically it is the worst option, but plants don't actually need much iron, so it is probably supplying enough. Fe-EDDHA is the best option, but in all likelihood glycine or citric acid will do. 

If I was worried about Fe deficiency, and I didn't have access to any form of chelator or complexing agent, I'd make sure I had a thick layer of fine grained substrate (with some organic matter in it), where reduction reactions could occur in anoxic areas, and not worry too much about anything else. 

If I had very hard water I'd grow plants like _Vallisneria_ and _Ceratophyllum_ from naturally hard calcium rich environments, and again Fe availability won't be a problem, and if I had really hard water and felt my life would be incomplete without growing plants from very soft water I'd bite the bullet and buy some Fe-EDDHA.

cheers Darrel


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## Victor

Perfect! Thank you.


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## Victor

dw1305 said:


> Theoretically it is the worst option, but plants don't actually need much iron, so it is probably supplying enough. Fe-EDDHA is the best option, but in all likelihood glycine or citric acid will do


 Just one more doubt. If amino acids haven't a strong bond to hold the Fe+2 in water, it will oxidate and become Fe+3. So, the ion Fe+3 will be separated from amino acid (glycine)? If so, the amino acid will decay and produce ammonia?


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## sciencefiction

I can't see iron deficiency on the uploaded pictures but for what is worth I have hard water and suffer iron deficiency in several tanks if I don't dose it.  In a low tech tank Easy Life Iron dosed 3 times weekly to 0.2ppm each time sorts the problem for me. I am not even sure what type of iron it contains.

It's probably been mentioned but also powdered clay mixed up in the substrate(5-10% max) upon setup also sorts this out for me. I presume the conditions in the substrate are more acidic so iron is in more soluble form.


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