# Help with my tank!



## Julian (20 Nov 2015)

So I've been struggling to grow a carpet in my tank for over a year. I've tried just about everything I can think of to improve the results but they always end up the same - after a couple of weeks, the plants turn transparent and melt. Everything I've read tells me that this is not enough CO2/too much light, but I've gassed my fish and lowered my lighting without this improving things. 

Some information about my setup:

Tank: TMC Signature 600 (100L)
Filter: Fluval 306 (media trays are half full to improve flow)
Lights: 2 x TMC Mini 400 LED's running at 30%
CO2: FE + CO2art Dual Stage Reg + Up in-line atomizer
Heating: Hydor inline
Substrate: ADA Amazonia
Fertiliser: EI dry dosing (APFUK) 3/16 KNO3 + 1/16 KH2PO4, 1/16 Trace + MGSO4 (I forget the exact amount off the top of my head but it's about twice as much KNO3)

pH is 7.0 before CO2 comes on, the lowest I can get it before the fish start to gasp is 6.2. I have 2 dropcheckers, one at substrate level and one at water level on opposite sides of the tank, both are lime green/yellowish at lights on. I'm using one of the cheap yellow ebay pH pens and keep it in probe solution fluid. I've calibrated it a few times but it's never been more than 0.1+/- out after a few weeks of being in the storage solution.

CO2 comes on 3 hours before lights on (I could get away with 2 but like to be sure) and goes off about an hour before the lights. Spray bar is at the back, creates cylindrical flow pattern, CO2 bubbles can be visibly seen to be passing in proximity to plants. I'm assuming that a Fluval 306 (meant for a 300L) with half the media trays empty should provide sufficient turnover. The jets of water coming out of the spray bar can easily reach the front of the tank, my only concern is that the holes may be too small and I might benefit from a spray bar with bigger holes.

This is what the tank looked like just after planting, 2 or 3 weeks later the glosso has all melted. The other plants are OK but not great.




 

As mentioned, I've tried increasing CO2 and lowering my light levels but this does not help. I've bought the same plant from different ebay sellers to see if this made any difference but it has not. 

I have some more plants arriving soon but I'm at a loss as to what else to try.


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## foxfish (20 Nov 2015)

I hate that when it happens!
You might find your scape responds better with a single outlet rather than a spray bar.
You might not have as much flow as you think, if you could redirect the flow in to a bucket & get a real idea of what is actually coming though.
When I have had similar issues it has always been lack of C02, to prove that point I have removed the fish, upped the light a filled the display with 20bps!
However the simple facts are... light, gas & ferts will see fast growth as long as the plants receive them.


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## Julian (20 Nov 2015)

What can i do to help the invitro plants transition to being underwater? Low light and adequate CO2, but for how long? When do I know I don't have enough light?


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## alto (20 Nov 2015)

Try a proprietary fertilizer such as Tropica Premium &  Specialized (eg, dosed alternate days) for the next 3 months & see where this goes ... it may be more costly than EI but I suspect not as much as plant replacements & frustration  



Julian said:


> struggling to grow a carpet in my tank for over a year. I've tried just about everything I can think of to improve the results but they always end up the same - after a couple of weeks, the plants turn transparent and melt


Is this always _Glossostigma elatinoides_ - why not try _Micranthemum 'Monte Carlo' _as this is usually less demanding ... get "easy" & "medium" rated plants growing successfully before frustrating yourself with "advanced" plants - & note that some "medium" plants may do better in your water conditions than some "easy" & so on.

If there is a local club or shop with planted display tanks, look at what does well & start with those.

Really like the hardscape & plants you've chosen


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## Julian (25 Nov 2015)

New plants in, added some more substrate in hope that where the plants are a little 'higher' it might increase CO2 availability.

Lights are on for 5 hours, set to 15%. Not sure if I should lower them some more?

CO2 at 3 bar, 4 bps. Haven't managed to do a proper pH profile yet but I'm hoping with the lights that low it will give me enough margin for error.







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## aquamania (18 Jan 2016)

Any update on your scape? I've been having similar issues so interested to see if you've cracked it.


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## Manuel Arias (19 Jan 2016)

What kH do you have in your water? The CO2 levels are related to both pH and kH levels, so maybe the combination of parametrs is not good enough to ensure the right amounts of CO2.


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## Julian (19 Jan 2016)

aquamania said:


> Any update on your scape? I've been having similar issues so interested to see if you've cracked it.



Same results as last time unfortunately, all the plants in that picture are well and truly dead. However, I think I've made some progress, I've had some HC in my tank for about a month and a half now and it hasn't died.. Yet!



Manuel Arias said:


> What kH do you have in your water? The CO2 levels are related to both pH and kH levels, so maybe the combination of parametrs is not good enough to ensure the right amounts of CO2.



I think the last time I tested my kH it was about 12, but will have to re-test as I can't remember exactly. My understanding is that it doesn't matter what your kH is, it just means you'll need to use more CO2 to make it dissolve into the water. I've suspected all along that something with my water isn't quite right, maybe this is the cause of all my failures? 

Will post some pictures later, but it's more or less similar to what's above.


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## Manuel Arias (19 Jan 2016)

Julian said:


> I tested my kH it was about 12



Well, the highest your kH the more CO2 you have to inject to achieve the right levels of CO2 for the plants, i.e. in some way we are wasting CO2 gas. However, a kH = 12 and pH = 7 provides aright level of CO2 for plants, so if your kH is still like that, then this should not be a problem. It is worth to check, thought. Carpeting plants are known to have very low efficiency taking CO2 from water, so it is usually the main issue involved in a failure to it.

Nevertheless, there is a good video about how to keep carpeting plants. It is not valid to all the species but helps to track the basic concepts:



Hope this help.

Best wishes,

Manuel


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## Chris Jackson (19 Jan 2016)

Are the plants pearling? It may actually be as simple as too little light... There will almost always be some melt with new plants but higher light will encourage stronger growth. Maybe try higher light but with frequent small water changes to keep pollutants down


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## Andy Thurston (19 Jan 2016)

Julian said:


> Lights: 2 x TMC Mini 400 LED's running at 30%





Chris Jackson said:


> Are the plants pearling? It may actually be as simple as too little light... There will almost always be some melt with new plants but higher light will encourage stronger growth. Maybe try higher light but with frequent small water changes to keep pollutants down


I think that your probably right Chris
I use a colour plus 1500 tile at about 60% on a 60l tank.

Hi Julian I would increase your tiles to about 40-50% and review your flow, I would suspect that your filter is a little under powered for a 100l tank, even with minimal media but it could be possible with the correct outlet setup (trial and error)
Regarding water change I do 50% 2-3 times per week when things are not going to plan


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## Jaap (19 Jan 2016)

Increase light intensity immediately. Too little light for sure!

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## Tomfish (19 Jan 2016)

I've got the same tank and lights as you and I 'had' the same spray bar. For all their cost (I spent over £100 on the glass necessary for full cover along the length of the tank) I don't think those glass spray bars are up to the job. As you have already alluded the holes are too small. I would sell them, but I've got so little faith in them I would feel disingenuous. Furthermore i suspect that using spray bars on open top tanks where evaporation is a problem and one is not diligent with top ups may cause co2 fluctuations due to large changes in surface agitation. This may be further compounded by the larger comparative surface associated with shallow tanks. I agree that your lighting needs upping (My mini's hang 10 inches from the surface at 100% and it does not seem like overkill), but more critically, looking at your layout i'm convinced a lily pipe pointed across the front of the tank would sort out your problems.

Cheers


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## Julian (22 Jan 2016)

Thanks for the replies guys. You've given me a lot to think about.

I'm going to order some new plants and up the lights. My idea is to try planting the HC at the top of the hill, that way there should be more CO2 available, then over time it will grow down as far as it can. I'm also going to try a lily pipe mounted on the right hand side pointing directly towards the hill which should rule out any flow issues. I know the cylindrical flow pattern is the most optimal, but I'm only trying to grow plants in one area of the tank, so surely directing as much flow to this area is logical? 

Another thing I've been thinking about is using rain water in my water changes to lower my KH (assuming I can collect enough).

Sound like a good plan?


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## Chris Jackson (22 Jan 2016)

Sounds good to me


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## nayr88 (22 Jan 2016)

Manuel Arias said:


> Well, the highest your kH the more CO2 you have to inject to achieve the right levels of CO2 for the plants, i.e. in some way we are wasting CO2 gas. However, a kH = 12 and pH = 7 provides aright level of CO2 for plants, so if your kH is still like that, then this should not be a problem. It is worth to check, thought. Carpeting plants are known to have very low efficiency taking CO2 from water, so it is usually the main issue involved in a failure to it.
> 
> Nevertheless, there is a good video about how to keep carpeting plants. It is not valid to all the species but helps to track the basic concepts:
> 
> ...





thank you for this


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## aaron.c (22 Jan 2016)

I feel your pain Julian. I am in the same boat. It is sooooo frustrating when you have spent 1000's and tried everything you can have think of, and your tank looks dreadful. 

I hope you manage to sort it out 

With regards KH - mine is very low and I am having the same issues as you. So KH might be a red herring. My money is on light 


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## Julian (26 Jan 2016)

New plants are in, lights at 60%. Fingers crossed.

I'm going to make my own lilly pipe out of Stainless Steel so threw together an Eheim/Fluval hybrid outflow to use in the meantime.









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## Joe Turner (1 Feb 2016)

Julian said:


> New plants in, added some more substrate in hope that where the plants are a little 'higher' it might increase CO2 availability.
> 
> Lights are on for 5 hours, set to 15%. Not sure if I should lower them some more?
> 
> ...



Hey Julian, 

How has it been since increased light intensity? Also, what adaptors do you have on your AquaRay control unit? I have the black box, but obviously can't insert USB connectors from the light. Did they come with it when you bought it?

Cheers, 

Joe


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## Julian (1 Feb 2016)

Joe Turner said:


> Hey Julian,
> 
> How has it been since increased light intensity? Also, what adaptors do you have on your AquaRay control unit? I have the black box, but obviously can't insert USB connectors from the light. Did they come with it when you bought it?
> 
> ...


So far so good. The plants have only been in for a week so its a bit early to tell. I think there's been some growth though.

I had to buy the adaptors that convert the usb power supply cables into the male pointy type for the controller. They may have even come with the light units, can't remember.

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## aquamania (14 Feb 2016)

Hi Julian. Any improvement since increasing intensity? I've recently started upping the intensity on my tmc 600's. I'm currently at 60% as of today having spent months trying in vain to get some growth with very low intensity. I'm hoping you have some positive news to report.


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## Julian (14 Feb 2016)

aquamania said:


> Hi Julian. Any improvement since increasing intensity? I've recently started upping the intensity on my tmc 600's. I'm currently at 60% as of today having spent months trying in vain to get some growth with very low intensity. I'm hoping you have some positive news to report.


The plants are alive, they might not be growing very much but they aren't dead! This is definitely the longest I've managed to keep these plants alive for, so I know the extra light is helping.

I switched to a different flow output, it basically pointed at the substrate and uprooted all of the plants . Back to square one, but I've upped the lights to 85% now, no signs of any algae. Got some more coming in a few days as well.



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## Jaap (15 Feb 2016)

Don't focus on algae, focus on growing plants. If the plants aren't growing there is no comforting if there is no algae. So keep the lights up, ensure your plants are growing healthy and unless you don't have a massive algae attack that will cover every surface of the aquarium just keep the lights up or even increase them if you see no growth!


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## Julian (30 Apr 2016)

Though it was about time I posted an update.

I figured out that my problems all along were not having enough light, so I set the 2 tiles to 100% and left it for a about 4 weeks. Although the plants were surviving, they weren't really growing so I've added a 3rd tile running at 50% about 2 weeks ago. Since then, the HC has started pearling and seems to be spreading. I can't tell for sure but it looks like it's growing, although some leafs are turning brown which I think is just diatoms. I'm going to up the water changes and give my filter a good clean so hopefully this will help.

I think my flow could be better, I'm using a stainless steel outflow, I think if I were to switch back to the (ugly) spray bar I used to have things would improve. I'm going to stick it out for a while though and see what happens.


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## Andy Thurston (30 Apr 2016)

Hi Julian, how about some CUC to help with the diatoms, it should go when you have a good healthy plant mass and the tank settles. critters do help but they will need feeding once the algae runs out.
I'm not a big fan of cleaning my filters every week/month, with the oversize filtration most of us use i feel that 3-6 months is more than adequate. I cleaned my filter after 6 months and there was very little mulm in there.


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## Julian (30 Apr 2016)

Big clown said:


> Hi Julian, how about some CUC to help with the diatoms, it should go when you have a good healthy plant mass and the tank settles. critters do help but they will need feeding once the algae runs out.
> I'm not a big fan of cleaning my filters every week/month, with the oversize filtration most of us use i feel that 3-6 months is more than adequate. I cleaned my filter after 6 months and there was very little mulm in there.


 
Been thinking about getting some shrimp, they are next on my list actually. I've got 3 ottos and some assassin snails but I could definitely use some more.


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## aquamania (30 Apr 2016)

Since my post above I reached the same conclusion as you. Despite reading advice to keep lights low my plants were dying because the light was insufficient. I figured that over 4 months I had discounted everything ie ferts, co2, flow, and dissolution so was only left with increasing light.
I ended up supplementing my twin 600s with two t5 39 watts. Since then growth has exploded. I mentioned this on another thread 

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/anyone-using-these-without-trouble.30700/page-2#post-443075

I've tried to post an image of my tank but have not been successful. 

I'm so glad I took a risk with more light.


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## Julian (1 May 2016)

aquamania said:


> Since my post above I reached the same conclusion as you. Despite reading advice to keep lights low my plants were dying because the light was insufficient. I figured that over 4 months I had discounted everything ie ferts, co2, flow, and dissolution so was only left with increasing light.
> I ended up supplementing my twin 600s with two t5 39 watts. Since then growth has exploded. I mentioned this on another thread
> 
> http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/anyone-using-these-without-trouble.30700/page-2#post-443075
> ...



Nice to hear someone having the same problems! Did you get any issues with algae?


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## sciencefiction (1 May 2016)

The issues with diatoms is unrelated to the level of light. It's because the plants or fitler can't yet cope with the level of ammonia produced in the tank. Giving the filter "a very good" would actually make it worse in the situation because every cleaning of a filter causes a tiny mini-cycle, mostly undetected but enough to cause some diatom outbreak. I always run at least two filters in every tank for that same reason. Unless the filter is clogged with pieces of plants and other large debris, I would not touch it while there's a diatom outbreak.
What would help is some very fast growing plants, such as floaters. I know they can block some light but you can increase it a tad while you have floaters. Otherwise balancing a tank with the species of plants you have it going to be hard, at least at the start.
As for the light, I've been saying for years that I've seen light deficient tanks all over this forum, the reasons of them struggling attributed to everything but light. I found out that in my low tech tanks increasing the light significantly improved the condition of the plants, and the diversity, without causing algae.  Decreasing the light simply killed everything bar anubias and crypts, and the crypts aren't at their best either at such low levels. The anubias grew better at higher light too.


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## aquamania (1 May 2016)

I have suffered from bba which took hold prior to increasing the lights and when I had been convinced that my co2 level was the issue. I was in a cycle of pushing the co2 high then having to reduce it when my fish were showing signs of stress. This and the dying plants seemed to be ideal environment for bba.


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## aquamania (1 May 2016)

This is my tank at the moment. You will note an absence of fish. I am ashamed to say I had a one time timer malfunction. Which meant my co2 for one day was on from midnight till 7pm instead of noon till 7. I am only left with some dwarf please, corydoras and a couple of otos. I'm planning on getting a large schoal of chili rasboras.


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## Julian (3 May 2016)

aquamania said:


> I have suffered from bba which took hold prior to increasing the lights and when I had been convinced that my co2 level was the issue. I was in a cycle of pushing the co2 high then having to reduce it when my fish were showing signs of stress. This and the dying plants seemed to be ideal environment for bba.



Did you manage to cure the BBA? I'm starting to get a little on the substrate and know it will only get worse. I'm dosing liquid carbon and EI, and I'm pretty sure my CO2 is spot on. I'm not really sure what to change apart from lowering the light.

I know I can spot treat it with the carbon which is what I've been doing on the rocks but not really sure what else to do.


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## aquamania (4 May 2016)

My bba was as a result of fluctuating co2 when I was constantly raising and lowering out. I'm fairly confident it wasn't because of light, because when it took hold my lights were low. I have got rid of most using Excel overdose it is very effective. I turned off all equipment get some in a syringe draw some water into the syringe and then blast the problem area. I left for a few mins even turned everything back on.


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## Julian (20 Jun 2016)

Just another update, things have definitely improved since adding the extra light.

I'm now running all 3 tiles at 100%, previously the middle tile was only at 50% but I figured I'd increase it and see what happens. The HC is looking much better than what it was previously. It's still a bit patchy where the old growth is starting to die off (front left), but the new growth is looking very green and healthy. I've been carefully trying to remove as much of this old, darker growth as I can using a pair of scissors. Once the plants are more established I'll give it a more aggressive trim. I've also added some extra clumps of HC to far right of the tank which has been in for about 2 weeks. Initially the new HC was much brighter than the old, but it has since darkened and started to blend in.









 

With the extra light, came the algae. The rocks in the picture below were dark green and almost completely covered in BBA. I've found that by dosing liquid carbon via a syringe and adding some shrimp, it keeps the rocks much cleaner and limits the growth of the BBA. I could turn the lights down at this point but I'm reluctant to do so for the sake of the plants.

I may need to turn the lights down eventually because some of the plants are starting to get a little BBA on them which can't be spot treated like the rocks. As you can see from the Staurogyne (closest center) the edges of the leafs are black, which I think is BBA. A lot of the Staurogyne looks like this and has to be trimmed weekly.


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## Chris Jackson (20 Jun 2016)

Excellent, so the moral is..do not fear the light...er within reason


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## Julian (16 Jul 2016)

So my tank is doing much better with the extra light, I almost have a complete carpet of HC but it's looking a bit dark in places. I think this is attributed to the same thing that's affecting some leaves on my Staurogyne.

Can anyone help identify what it is? I don't know if it's algae or a deficiency of some sort. Originally I thought it was BBA but I'm not sure.


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