# SMALL CO2 SYSTEMS/BOTTLES (MAYBE REFILLING)



## Andrew Butler (13 Sep 2020)

I'm not finding the information I'm looking for with clarity, or ease so thought I'd start a post on it and hope to find the answers.

Firstly I'm looking for a small system that will sit alongside an ADA 45-P sized aquarium (450 x 270 x 300mm) on a desktop.
I'm aware this is not the most cost efficient way to run CO2 but I simply don't have anywhere to put a larger cylinder that fits anywhere close by.

I've been pointed towards GLA but am not clear on thread sizes and what options this would give me with ease in the UK.
Probably worth noting that there's nowhere close by that refills CO2 I know of which brings me onto the next topic.................Refilling CO2!

When looking around I've seen some systems that enable you to refill the likes of sodastream bottles and the likes yourself, has anyone tried this?
When first seeing this my initial reaction would be no, however, if using the correct equipment in a safe manner then maybe this could be an option.

Finding clear thread sizes and descriptors all in one place (and in an idiot proof form) would be great if anyone knows of one?

All help and information welcome
Thanks
Andrew


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## Luketendo (13 Sep 2020)

CO2art (forum sponsor) do all the kit you need for this including a sodastream adapter and will be able help you with it if you ask via their website.

Their regs are quite large though so may not look the best. However, nano regs (including many of those GLA) are unlikely to be as good quality I would think.


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## Andrew Butler (13 Sep 2020)

Hi @Luketendo
Thanks for the input, I knew CO2art sell the additional adaptor for converting to Sodastream BUT is an add on to their regulators, as far as I'm aware.
This sure does make a large system.

I'm told the GLA are 'the best' from what I consider a reliable source.


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## GHNelson (13 Sep 2020)




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## Andrew Butler (13 Sep 2020)

hogan53 said:


>



Information like this is what made me question things and wonder quite how safe this really is.

I still need to find a nice, small and compact system, if such a thing exists. I'm finding the obvious ones but unsure on whether any are dual stage and some finding the actual thread sizes.


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## Luketendo (14 Sep 2020)

Andrew Butler said:


> Hi @Luketendo
> Thanks for the input, I knew CO2art sell the additional adaptor for converting to Sodastream BUT is an add on to their regulators, as far as I'm aware.
> This sure does make a large system.
> 
> I'm told the GLA are 'the best' from what I consider a reliable source.



There is another similar CO2 retailer in the UK, not sure if I am allowed to name due to non-sponsor. They might have something smaller?


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## Andrew Butler (14 Sep 2020)

Hi Luke,
I imagine you're referring to CO2supermarket; I've never dealt with the company and have always gone with CO2art products but unfortunately they don't offer the smaller solution I'm looking for.
No phone number to speak with them either.


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## hypnogogia (14 Sep 2020)

Andrew Butler said:


> Hi Luke,
> I imagine you're referring to CO2supermarket; I've never dealt with the company and have always gone with CO2art products but unfortunately they don't offer the smaller solution I'm looking for.
> No phone number to speak with them either.


I think a couple of people have had some bad experiences with the supermarket recently from some of the threads I've seen.


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## Luketendo (14 Sep 2020)

hypnogogia said:


> I think a couple of people have had some bad experiences with the supermarket recently from some of the threads I've seen.


Same for CO2art here in Australia but mines not too bad. Needle valve is a bit faulty atm but I have it set and forget and just adjusting timings instead now.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## ian_m (14 Sep 2020)

Couple of points to think about.

Never overfill a CO2 cylinder. A CO2 cylinder must have space above the liquid CO2 to allow "expansion room" if the cylinder is over heated. This is why CO2 is put into a cylinder by weight than by volume. The above video does not show venting the excess gas to lower the weight to the correct filled weight. Generally if over filled, there is a risk the over pressure burst disk/valve will rupture wasting all the gas and causing a change of underwear scenario if done at home.

What about remotely locating a proper CO2 cylinder (fire extinguisher or pub gas). Many people have placed the CO2 cylinders away from their tank and connected in CO2 tubing through walls, along skirting board etc. You place the cylinder & solenoid in a WAF friendly place (wife acceptance factor) and route CO2 tubing to tank. You open the needle valve at cylinder end (open enough so the length of tubing pressurises in a reasonable time) and need another needle valve at tank end to adjust your CO2 flow.  Job done.

Also, as you are using so little CO2 compared to say putting a fire out, you can store the CO2 cylinder in any orientation. I ran mine for months with the fire extinguisher sat on its side in a magazine rack, with no issues.


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## Andrew Butler (15 Sep 2020)

Thanks @ian_m


ian_m said:


> What about remotely locating a proper CO2 cylinder


I wish, there's simply nowhere, without going over architrave, around cabinets and all on the surface etc.

Hopefully I've found a compromise / solution with the Ista vertical controller and bottles that can be refilled.
I can get them refilled for pretty much what I was paying for a 2kg FE I couldn't get refilled locally any cheaper per kg/L so just the canister outlay and no need to refill myself.
Another bonus is if I get the space back next year is I can just purchase the bigger bottles.


ian_m said:


> You place the cylinder & solenoid in a WAF friendly place (wife acceptance factor) and route CO2 tubing to tank. You open the needle valve at cylinder end (open enough so the length of tubing pressurises in a reasonable time) and need another needle valve at tank end to adjust your CO2 flow. Job done.


I guess if this was an option it would open up the world of a separate inline solenoid nearer location also for anyone interested to save on the pressure delay.


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## alto (16 Sep 2020)

Andrew Butler said:


> Ista vertical controller and bottles that can be refilled


Just confirm that the fittings are compatible with your local refill guy (you may be able to purchase an adapter)
Dennerle and Eheim also offer smaller CO2 systems with refillable canister options 

Local shops have offered bits and pieces of the Ista system (I’d rate them as medium quality based upon regulator finish and canister threads etc), but no refillable canisters (non-standard thread + shipping issues)


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## GHNelson (16 Sep 2020)

Hi Andrew
Look for  Aquili System CO2 Small System for Aquarium Set With Cylinder From 300 Gr

The above is an Italian company, 
I had a small brass regulator set from the same company....which was pretty good quality!
The reg screwed on the top of a Disposable Cylinder!
The working pressure was set at 2.5 bar...but I think this could be adjusted.






The image seems to be their newer system!
hoggie


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## Andrew Butler (16 Sep 2020)

alto said:


> Just confirm that the fittings are compatible with your local refill guy (you may be able to purchase an adapter)
> Dennerle and Eheim also offer smaller CO2 systems with refillable canister options


They use CGA 320 which is UK standard, the refill is actually a company I found through ebay.
I did have a look around the big brands and even the not so big ones and having the dimensions was something I couldn't find with a canister that would be value for money and a dual stage regulator - I've always had dual stage and believe it the correct thing to look for.


alto said:


> Local shops have offered bits and pieces of the Ista system (I’d rate them as medium quality based upon regulator finish and canister threads etc), but no refillable canisters (non-standard thread + shipping issues)


I had made the purchase online when I heard someone wasn't too impressed an Ista regulator BUT that was a smaller regulator, to be used with disposable type canisters. Hopefully this is of better quality, is duel stage etc - if it doesn't seem of satisfactory quality then I can just send it back.


hogan53 said:


> Look for Aquili System CO2 Small System for Aquarium Set With Cylinder From 300 Gr


I saw these and as they were single stage I looked to see if they do any dual stage, which they do, but are quite large and wouldn't sit on the footprint of the Ista.

Here's some photos I got sent of the Ista, whether it will stand up alone sturdy enough, or require a brace I'm unsure at the moment.


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## ian_m (16 Sep 2020)

Andrew Butler said:


> They use CGA 320 which is UK standard, the refill is actually a company I found through ebay.


Nope.  The UK, European & Australisia  standard FE/CO2 connection is DIN477 (which is actually British Standard 341 Part 1) . CGA320 is North America only.  JIS B 8246 is Japan only. They are not compatible.


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## Andrew Butler (16 Sep 2020)

ian_m said:


> Nope.  The UK, European & Australisia standard FE/CO2 connection is DIN477 (which is actually British Standard 341 Part 1) . CGA320 is North America only. JIS B 8246 is Japan only. They are not compatible.


As far as I'm aware UK 2kg CO2 fire extinguisher complies with / uses - BS341 / DIN477 / W21.8X14
I've been told that pub gas and the likes uses CGA320 as does the Ista cylinder and regulator.

The UK FE thread is very unique I believe and isn't what I'm using.


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## PARAGUAY (16 Sep 2020)

Is it the tropica set that hangs on the glass looks neat but need to replace bottles pretty often at 95g . What about the D-D freshwater set 600g mines under cabinet but not too invasive as solenoid.  AE used to sell them for some reason more retailers sell the marine version only? Even though they use disposable bottles machine mart and halford have mig welding bottles at around £16


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## ian_m (16 Sep 2020)

Andrew Butler said:


> I've been told that pub gas and the likes uses CGA320 as does the Ista cylinder and regulator.


No pub gas is DIN477 the UK/European standard. Anything imported from US of A will be CGA320.



Andrew Butler said:


> The UK FE thread is very unique I believe and isn't what I'm using.


The UK FE is really the world standard, only US and Japan are different.

This site was really informative on CO2. No longer exists but is available on Wayback machine.
https://web.archive.org/web/20150216050554/http://www.teamonslaught.fsnet.co.uk:80/co2_info.htm


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## alto (16 Sep 2020)

The ISTA CO2 regulator you’ve pictured above is described as dual gauge single stage in Canadian shops


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## Andrew Butler (16 Sep 2020)

PARAGUAY said:


> Is it the tropica set that hangs on the glass looks neat but need to replace bottles pretty often at 95g . What about the D-D freshwater set 600g mines under cabinet but not too invasive as solenoid.  AE used to sell them for some reason more retailers sell the marine version only? Even though they use disposable bottles machine mart and halford have mig welding bottles at around £16


Works out flipping expensive that way!


alto said:


> The ISTA CO2 regulator you’ve pictured above is described as dual gauge single stage in Canadian shops


Great, seems I've probably been misinformed 
So as I'm now a bit in the wind, what defines a dual stage regulator?


ian_m said:


> No pub gas is DIN477 the UK/European standard. Anything imported from US of A will be CGA320.


Great, seems I've probably been misinformed (again) 
Even when you check with reputable companies that are big in the name of pub gas they re coming back with incorrect information - If I had any hair I'd pull it out!


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## Andrew Butler (16 Sep 2020)

Hi @alto (and everyone else) how do I know for sure if it's a dual stage or just a dual gauge, conflicting information!

It does not fit onto the thread of a UK fire extinguisher and believe it is a CGA320 type thread.


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## PARAGUAY (17 Sep 2020)

A 600g disposable would last quite a while on a tank that size. I can see the problem Andrew though yo want something that looks ok as its visible  Not easy


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## Andrew Butler (17 Sep 2020)

PARAGUAY said:


> A 600g disposable would last quite a while on a tank that size. I can see the problem Andrew though yo want something that looks ok as its visible  Not easy


A part is also something I can then use when I move up a size, which might be happening sooner now and using the system on that as I can get the Ista bottles refilled cheaper or any CGA320 bottle infact.
I normally want the impossible!


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## ian_m (17 Sep 2020)

Andrew Butler said:


> So as I'm now a bit in the wind, what defines a dual stage regulator?


Dual gauge regulators have two pressure gauges, one is cylinder pressure and other output pressure. The cylinder pressure, for CO2, will always typically read 800psi/55bar as long as there is liquid CO2 in the cylinder. The output pressure gauge typically will read to 5 bar (70psi), typically 2.5bar is OK for CO2 injection. This may or may not be adjustable depending on your regulator, mine is fixed at 2.5bar and I have never had any issues injecting CO2.

To reduce the cylinder pressure from 800psi to say 35psi this can be done in a single stage or dual stage regulator. Dual stage generally reduces the 800psi to say 100psi where a 2nd stage reduces it to 35psi. Advantage of dual stage is better regulation, as cylinder pressure falls (ie when tank is empty and all liquid CO2 has gone) the regulator maintains the output pressure better than a single stage. To be honest, once cylinder pressure is falling, the cylinder is empty so you only have a day or two left anyway and as it maintains pressure you won't get any change in CO2 bubble rate to indicate the cylinder is getting empty. Dual stage is obviously more expensive.

Single stage uses a single regulator to reduce 800psi to 35psi in one go. Has the advantage of being cheaper. Also has an advantage (though dual stage users disagree) that as cylinder pressure departs from 800psi, as liquid CO2 has all gone, the final output pressure can fall as well. This is a really handy indication that CO2 is running low and the tank needs changing. One disadvantage of some single stage regulators is that they can suffer end of tank dump, where are when the cylinder pressure falls to say 400psi the regulator loses all regulation and empties the CO2 cylinder in one go. If the tank is small this will asphyxiate the fish, but if the tank is large won't make much difference, but is reckoned to generally a bad thing. My single stage CO2Supermarket regulator does not end of tank dump, the CO2 injection rate just gets slower and slower as cylinder pressure falls until at about 200psi (after many days) it stops altogether.


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## Andrew Butler (17 Sep 2020)

Thanks @ian_m 
I understood (in a fashion) the difference but unsure there is a way to tell for sure without having things apart is there?
I will guess that it's just a dual gauge and not dual stage and assume 'tank dump' is something I would only find out through trial.

Time to toss a coin, return as (probably) misinformed or stick with the Ista.


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## Nick potts (17 Sep 2020)

Andrew Butler said:


> Thanks @ian_m
> I understood (in a fashion) the difference but unsure there is a way to tell for sure without having things apart is there?
> I will guess that it's just a dual gauge and not dual stage and assume 'tank dump' is something I would only find out through trial.
> 
> Time to toss a coin, return as (probably) misinformed or stick with the Ista.



While dual stage is always going to be preferred for the reasons mentioned above, a single stage reg is usually going to be perfectly fine for aquarium use, there are a lot in use.

If you want to keep the insta reg, you could pick up an adapter to convert it to DIN 477 so your options with bottles aren't so limited.


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## neofy705 (21 Nov 2020)

Hello, what did you end up doing with the ista bottles/ regulator? I'm having the exact same problem


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## CO2-FILLER (20 Jan 2021)

ISTA cylinders have a UNF valve outlet thread (unified fine) popular in the US. I had to get an adaptor custom made to be able to safely refill ISTA bottles.


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