# What's your reactions when.....



## HiNtZ (5 Sep 2016)

...you see your standard looking plastic planted, multi-color gravel "bubblin' pirate chest 'o gold" type tanks??

Personally I die a little inside. I mean I'm not judging, everyone is entitled to their style.... but you know. I just see the lost potential I suppose.

What about for your kids? Planted tank, or novelty? I'm setting up a really nice natural planted shrimp tank for my Godson in the coming weeks which is where this question came from really. Wanted him to have something proper and "real", as it were. All I have to do is make him forget about Nemo for a bit 

What do you think?


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## Tim Harrison (5 Sep 2016)

Me too http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/child-friendly-aquascapes.40521/


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## Manisha (5 Sep 2016)

Many hobbyists start at this point (sunken gallows, biorb etc...) not sustainable long term & sad for livestock... However, without a point of interest & ability to relate, most people would move on & not attempt a planted tank. I think Oliver Knott is a very professional aquascaper who can appeal to beginners also ☺


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## PARAGUAY (5 Sep 2016)

Manisha said:


> Many hobbyists start at this point (sunken gallows, biorb etc...) not sustainable long term & sad for livestock... However, without a point of interest & ability to relate, most people would move on & not attempt a planted tank. I think Oliver Knott is a very professional aquascaper who can appeal to beginners also ☺


It can be a marmite thing this,you can show someone a fabulous Amano aquascape your enthusiasm clearly obvious and they are equally or unbelievebly impressed by a sunken galleon with a LED gaudy submerged pink light .Ah well


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## zozo (6 Sep 2016)

Already think from the first time i saw it long time ago, that this toy crap should be banned. As long as children are not educated far earlier and better when it comes to the responsibility involved with take care for animals in general. This stuff makes kids and even adults get the impression animals are toys too. Schools do absolutely nothing in this part, i have a friend and his daughter is in highschool, it is named the biological school i do not know how this would be called in english. Anyway you probably understand what kind of school it is. But she has a fish tank also and when i see it the hairs on my neck stand up. Not to speak of children following an education in another direction.

When you bring it up.. Many parents reply with an eye wink and say cmon it's a child, let it be a child it's learning  That's where the education already failed long time ago with the parents it's learning starting at the wrong end. Fish dies and tomorow we by a new one.. That's what makes pet fish and especialy goldfish as number 1 the worst treated animals on the planet, millions per year go down the drain after dying an agonizing death. Just for the fun of it..

I'm missing something here obviously, for what i am much to stuppid to understand.

My reaction when i see it? I bite my lips and turn away.. Saying something i would make a fool out of myself..


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## HiNtZ (6 Sep 2016)

Tim Harrison said:


> Me too http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/child-friendly-aquascapes.40521/



Haha, yes, I see - like me you just can't seem to be convinced! Although tmiravent in that thread started something that has potential. Ok, so there's toys in there but with a few tufts of HC, maybe some DHG and other plants it would look pretty awesome.



Manisha said:


> Many hobbyists start at this point (sunken gallows, biorb etc...) not sustainable long term & sad for livestock... However, without a point of interest & ability to relate, most people would move on & not attempt a planted tank. I think Oliver Knott is a very professional aquascaper who can appeal to beginners also ☺



I've seen a few of his tanks and I really like them, as an example "Dragon Hunter" would be a brilliant tank for kids. His other stuff is really really good too though, pretty wacky and different but I like that.



PARAGUAY said:


> It can be a marmite thing this,you can show someone a fabulous Amano aquascape your enthusiasm clearly obvious and they are equally or unbelievebly impressed by a sunken galleon with a LED gaudy submerged pink light .Ah well



Exactly. I've got my fair share of friends like that who see it as "just a tank" and the same as any other tank.



zozo said:


> Already think from the first time i saw it long time ago, that this toy crap should be banned. As long as children are not educated far earlier and better when it comes to the responsibility involved with take care for animals in general. This stuff makes kids and even adults get the impression animals are toys too. Schools do absolutely nothing in this part, i have a friend and his daughter is in highschool, it is named the biological school i do not know how this would be called in english. Anyway you probably understand what kind of school it is. But she has a fish tank also and when i see it the hairs on my neck stand up. Not to speak of children following an education in another direction.
> 
> When you bring it up.. Many parents reply with an eye wink and say cmon it's a child, let it be a child it's learning  That's where the education already failed long time ago with the parents it's learning starting at the wrong end. Fish dies and tomorow we by a new one.. That's what makes pet fish and especialy goldfish as number 1 the worst treated animals on the planet, millions per year go down the drain after dying an agonizing death. Just for the fun of it..
> 
> ...



Very good points. Start as you mean to go on then.

Those plastic plants when I see them are so jagged and sharp, they just make me cringe. As for the gold fish, well here (UK) they are trying to ban the giving away of free goldfish at fairs etc


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## Gage Harford (7 Sep 2016)

Ugly tanks are restaurants are the worst, why even have it.  The tank in my daughters classroom was pretty bad, I added a light, driftwood, crypts, anubias, and java fern.  It still has blue gravel and plastic plants but it's a start.


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## HiNtZ (7 Sep 2016)

Gage Harford said:


> Ugly tanks are restaurants are the worst, why even have it.  The tank in my daughters classroom was pretty bad, I added a light, driftwood, crypts, anubias, and java fern.  It still has blue gravel and plastic plants but it's a start.



Yeah I know what you mean about the restaurant tanks - cringy.

Hopefully that blue gravel will get a more natural shade over time. I suppose it would since it probably won't be getting washed weekly with chlorine water after you made the additions


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## Tim Harrison (7 Sep 2016)

Well I'm with Marcel on this, my philosophy is similar to Takashi Amano's in that a Nature Aquarium is a little slice of nature designed to increase awareness of the wider biophysical environment.

When it comes to educating children's perception of nature, in particular, I consider this (that is increasing awareness of the wider biophysical environment) vitally important especially since their immediate environment is becoming overwhelmingly technologized and increasingly divorced from nature.

It’s this formative perception which will ultimately inform their decisions and therefore how they interact with nature, ultimately as adults. Some perceptions are useful because they embrace reality more accurately, whilst others don't and are therefore less useful.

It's why people interact with the environment in a wide spectrum of different ways; some good, some not so good.

In short...plastic plants and toys within the context of an aquarium containing living organisms do not embrace reality, and are therefore not particularly useful in increasing awareness of the wider biophysical environment...perhaps not the best way to encourage an interest in nature...


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## Aqua360 (7 Sep 2016)

I agree with the point mentioned above about plastic ornaments etc creating the idea that fish are toys. In that regard, I disagree with their use; especially as I'd say most of us want to create an environment that makes fish feel secure etc, yellow spongebob ornaments and bright blue gravel isn't exactly suitable.

On the other hand, the hobby has to be born somewhere for young people to keep it going; and tacky "easy" ornaments, plants etc seem to be the preferred entry.


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## zozo (7 Sep 2016)

Tim Harrison said:


> Well I'm with Marcel on this, my philosophy is similar to Takashi Amano's in that a Nature Aquarium is a little slice of nature designed to increase awareness of the wider biophysical environment.
> 
> When it comes to educating children's perception of nature, in particular, I consider this (that is increasing awareness of the wider biophysical environment) vitally important especially since their immediate environment is becoming overwhelmingly technologized and increasingly divorced from nature.
> 
> ...



Some countries do have some very nice laws, like Germany.. Many other countries could take that for example.. Like they have an official law against keeping fish in a to small invironment. Now i do not know how this is controlled in a private way.. But it is already a very nice step towards efficient social control among the citizins to make them aware this law excists. And they do, for example i heard Jurijs say in an interview about what are nice fish sp. to keep in a nano tank. He said not able to answer this because he might be taken accountable for his words regarding this law.

Also if you want to go fishing in a pool in Germany you need to take a course and do an exam in how to respectfully catch and release a fish..

I realy wonder what a politicians answer would be from other countries finding it less important and not having such laws. Whatever the answer is, these people are not worthy of having that job.

Once a son of a friend of mine he was about 5 of age at the time.. Asked me to find the poe bear edducational computer game for him.. I did and listened to it first to check if it was correctly burned to the cd. The game started with an introductional story about poe bear. In that story was in some words stated "He was just a stuppid bear with a small brain so how could he know things". Sorry but it shocked me a bit and tossed that cdrom in the trashbin and told the kid i couldn't find it. I'm not going to teach a 5 year old that animals are stuppid and have a small brain and know nothing! Why is this still happening? I'm i stuppid? You can't expect from a 5 year old to interpret such a statement between the lines with a pinch of salt. Nice way to start your live, thinking animals have a small brain and there for are stupid. Duh!? What's the point of teaching this to a kid? Who the hell in his or her educational proffession and right mind makes such a product and sells it to parents to teach their kids?


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## rebel (7 Sep 2016)

My reaction is how to make the tank better. I always mention things that they could improve on. One step at a time though. If they question my 'expertise' I show them a picture of one of my tanks and tanks I one day aim to achieve from IAPLC. It never works though. Most don't even want to do a water change. They just 'top up' you see.


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## roadmaster (7 Sep 2016)

If  a five year old want's pink/blue gravel, and pirate chest with scuba diver,then By god that's what they should have. IMHO
If your older than fifteen with same desire,well...Time to expand your horizon's a bit me think's.


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## Tim Harrison (7 Sep 2016)

Well that's kind of the point I was trying to make in post 9...
Educate children to respect living organisms and nature in the first place and then perhaps when it's 15 years old it won't need to expand its horizons beyond the desire for pink/blue gravel, and a pirate chest with a scuba diver...


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## zozo (7 Sep 2016)

roadmaster said:


> If a five year old want's pink/blue gravel, and pirate chest with scuba diver,then By god that's what they should have. IMHO



If the rest what comes with it all is in order and maintained by an adult who knows what he or she is doing to keep the fish in such invironment healthy.. And supervising the kid to respect the fish living in it, but a 5 year old should not be the caretacker of it. It yet simply can't understand it fully. Then there shouldn't be a problem.. It's not the pirat chest, nor the scuba diver hanging to it nor the rainbow colored substrate doing any harm they are nothing more then silly inert harmless objects. That's a matter of taste anybody has the right to have. That the whole concept nothing has to do with learning a kid about nature is beside that. Even the fancy goldfish in it, which shouldn't be in there in the first place also has little to do with nature. But ok one has a toy dog the other a toy cat so why not a toy fish that's a matter of taste too. I can find what i want, but my opinion if i find it beautifull or not means zip.. And that's not the issue.

The issue is that the bottom line message it sends is teaching kids absolutely nothing of any value. If it has an educative value it starts at the wrong end again, in general it teaches how not to do it. Where only a fish again has to suffer for.. Why does an animal first has to suffer to teach us anything?  This is completely trivialized with silly meaningless excuses. After all the majority of the adults thinks "cmon don't be silly it is just a fish!?" Hence the kids think the same, that's the message they get from their parents.

Sincerely i ask myself why?? What's wrong.. Who is learning us to think like this? And why?

It's the same as taking kids to a dolfinarium to applaud and aw to dolfins and whales in captivity doing silly tricks.. It sends a message, but actualy not a nice one. 
The same messages send by commercials on tv without many of us realizing it. There is a lot of psychology put in those commercials sending us messages.

The same psychology applies to this it sends a message. One of those message is i already heard a dozen times in my life..  "Cmon man, It's only a fish!?"

It's a rather bizar way of entertainment.


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## Tim Harrison (7 Sep 2016)

Good point Marcel...for the general record my last was an attempt at being metaphorical...


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## zozo (7 Sep 2016)

Thanks Tim.. 

You got me thinking, you hit the nail on the head.. This is the answer to the topic title as breef as it can get..


Tim Harrison said:


> an attempt at being metaphorical.


That's what it is all about..

Lets get to mcdonalds for a happymeal and see what we get to put in our tank..


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## HiNtZ (8 Sep 2016)

roadmaster said:


> If  a five year old want's pink/blue gravel, and pirate chest with scuba diver,then By god that's what they should have. IMHO
> If your older than fifteen with same desire,well...Time to expand your horizon's a bit me think's.



LOL - yeah I'd be a bit concerned if a 15 year old wanted all of that.

Other points made in here, very good. I was expecting this to be pretty black and white!


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## Lindy (9 Sep 2016)

I have a 5yr old and would absolutely never let her choose things to go in the tanks as at that age they have little idea of providing the best environment for fish or any animal. If they want a tiny "frozen" tank with blue gravel and figures in it then fine, but don't be putting fish in there with them. That is like buying your kid a dolls house for a pet hamster to live in. 
It is just like kids wanting a pet rabbit because it looks cute and fluffy. My daughter was very disappointed when I told her they kick and bite and don't like being picked up.
My daughter would love a rainbow ornament or something similar but that is because young kids are attracted to colourful things. I've given up trying to get her interested in the tanks but recently she noticed within 12 hrs that I'd put a completely new fish in the big tank so there is hope yet. It is up to parents to instill respect for living creatures. That if we keep pets we have to provide the optimum environment for them and not what we like. 
My daughter has pink glittery wallpaper and lots of cute pink things in her room but that is her room. Sorry to ramble...just bugs me when parents say oh my child must have that sponge bob figure there. Buy them a wee tank and just fill it with crap. Kids will love it. Just don't ask something to live in there!

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


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## zozo (9 Sep 2016)

I know a 22 year old girl (woman) having it (family relation). A maybe 8 liter sqaure pot, because a fish bowl is not done anymore..  With fire red colored  gravel, fortunately 1 little live plant.. Or it most have been a very good fake one.. And 2 fancy goldfish she said, but the only one left called Henry.. The other one died rather soon.. Very strange all.. She even is convinced the fish also sleeps, because at the end of the day it lays very quiet with it's belly on the substrate and only moves if you wake it up by knocking the glass. 

When i explained her about poop and amonia and oxygene etc. she felt kinda guilty, went straight to the shop and bought a 54 liter tank, but she only filled half to prevent spilling any water over te edge and still give the fish more room.. Woow 14 litres more!! It must be realy happy now!  And she proudly sends me a pic of the major improvements.

Probably expecting a compliment, which ofcourse i indeed did give.. After all we are nowadays taught to show and have emphaty towards eachother. After all we are all so sensitive and not having nor showing emphaty is rude isn't it? 

And that's a 22 year old, even after explaining still not realy having a clue what it means.

Never mind the fish it's sleeping anyway..


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## Lindy (9 Sep 2016)

We have a duty of care and if you decide to ignore the correct information when given then you just shouldn't have animals. Unfortunately extends to all animals in our care. Look at dogs.2 thirds of UK dogs are overweight. "But they hardly eat anything" is the usual response.  I'd bite my tongue as saying how depressing it is to know that a small amount of calories is still exceeding what the dog needs because it gets so little exercise would be non productive and better to try and change than insult and isolate, just like your friend and goldfish. Common goldfish should not be sold for tanks. End of. Fancy should be sold as a specialist fish.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


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## Manisha (9 Sep 2016)

I've really enjoyed the different views expressed - I think ultimately the point of sale is where education is needed most, inappropriate habitats are manufactured as 'easy' - which is obviously a failing as a closed system like a fish tank needs alot of care. Ornaments & coloured substrate is harmless really but so unnecessary as children are facinated with living creatures regardless of the setting anyway. I sadly don't believe things will change as if there is a chance to make money - someone will  & in the UK people actually choose to have 'fake grass' in their gardens...We can't change the world, only ourselves & hopefully our little ones will follow (I may have started with a biorb but my children wouldn't because they know it's an unhealthy environment...)


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## zozo (9 Sep 2016)

This is a societal issue / problem that probably will never change, at least not in our lifetime.. At the time it is in such a way crookedly interwoven in our society devided over so many groups of aledged lovers and views about responsibility and where it lays. This ball will keep bouncing around and nobody will ever catch it, it simply is to hot to hold, it seems.

Few years ago there was a perfect example for this which in the end is forgotten again and swept under the carpet and just keeps going on and on.  Watch the documentary  Pedigree Dogs exposed - Discretion is adviced, this is a very disturbing documentary.

I kept a bit track of the aftermath of this story regarding the reactions of the peoples involved causing this problems.. The highest placed spokesman of the societies creating these standards said simply 

"We look into to it, but short term improvements are imossible, this will take many generations." 

With other words for now we "poor people" have to learn to live with the dogs problems. 

Lovers? Lovers of what actualy? Dogs? Or looks? Traditions? Showing off? Love only for yourself?"

One thing is for sure, the dog itself doesn't give a flying figure about how it looks.


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## roadmaster (9 Sep 2016)

Ha! Ha!
I pulled the age five year old out of the air in previous reply, but OP's godson could be five day's or five month's old,and my sentiment remain's unchanged.
Spoil the wee ones rotten, while they are blissfully ignorant to the stark realities of growing older by the day.
I very much agree that nature will always be their friend if introduced to her at an early age.


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## HiNtZ (9 Sep 2016)

Lindy said:


> My daughter would love a rainbow ornament or something similar but that is because young kids are attracted to colourful things.



There's some pretty nice colorful fish out there for choice, does she not like them?

Would she perhaps be more interested in, dare I say it, a marine tank?



zozo said:


> And 2 fancy goldfish she said, but the only one left called Henry.. The other one died rather soon.. Very strange all.. She even is convinced the fish also sleeps, because at the end of the day it lays very quiet with it's belly on the substrate and only moves if you wake it up by knocking the glass.



Oh dear  

Critisism can be constructive - I'm pretty harsh and to the point with people if I feel I know better. Couple of friends who keep tanks (one has an 800litre african setup), the ones who ironically peer pressured me into the hobby (which I am very grateful for now) when asked about water changes and dealing with nitrates/phosphates (rock/sand tanks, not a single plant) I am met with the reply "nitra-what?".

They're cool now they are aware, I think initially they felt a bit annoyed that they were the ones to get me into the hobby, then 6 months later I'm coming round dictating to them about maintenance, water chemistry and so on.


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## HiNtZ (9 Sep 2016)

Lindy said:


> We have a duty of care and if you decide to ignore the correct information when given then you just shouldn't have animals. Unfortunately extends to all animals in our care. Look at dogs.2 thirds of UK dogs are overweight. "But they hardly eat anything" is the usual response.  I'd bite my tongue as saying how depressing it is to know that a small amount of calories is still exceeding what the dog needs because it gets so little exercise would be non productive and better to try and change than insult and isolate, just like your friend and goldfish. Common goldfish should not be sold for tanks. End of. Fancy should be sold as a specialist fish.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk



Friend of mine has a couple of acres and about 8 dogs - they all get 1 meal per day, and starved on the Sunday. Healthiest most happy dogs you'll ever see in your life. In contrast to the people that go past walking their dog half way round the block - they're out of breath (the owners too sometimes), struggling to walk, and look like they can't wait to get home and be treated.


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## HiNtZ (9 Sep 2016)

HiNtZ said:


> Friend of mine has a couple of acres and about 8 dogs - they all get 1 meal per day, and starved on the Sunday. Healthiest most happy dogs you'll ever see in your life. In contrast to the people that go past walking their dog half way round the block - they're out of breath (the owners too sometimes), struggling to walk, and look like they can't wait to get home and be treated.





zozo said:


> This is a societal issue / problem that probably will never change, at least not in our lifetime.. At the time it is in such a way crookedly interwoven in our society devided over so many groups of aledged lovers and views about responsibility and where it lays. This ball will keep bouncing around and nobody will ever catch it, it simply is to hot to hold, it seems.
> 
> 
> Lovers? Lovers of what actualy? Dogs? Or looks? Traditions? Showing off? Love only for yourself?"
> ...



Sounds typical of pageant moms in the states - they will always maintain they are doing it because their child enjoys it, or wants to do it. The stark reality is it was the Mother's unfulfilled dream that they are now forcing their child to live in the hopes they can absorb some of that attention they clearly so desperately lack.


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## zozo (9 Sep 2016)

HiNtZ said:


> Critisism can be constructive - I'm pretty harsh and to the point with people if I feel I know better. Couple of friends who keep tanks (one has an 800litre african setup), the ones who ironically peer pressured me into the hobby (which I am very grateful for now) when asked about water changes and dealing with nitrates/phosphates (rock/sand tanks, not a single plant) I am met with the reply "nitra-what?".
> 
> They're cool now they are aware, I think initially they felt a bit annoyed that they were the ones to get me into the hobby, then 6 months later I'm coming round dictating to them about maintenance, water chemistry and so on.



Than you're a bit like me, but i learned to shut up especialy with people who are close to me when not asked for an opinion.. Usualy if not asked, feedback can become (negative) critisism and if it occurs to often it backfires and kicks you in the .... It did to me to often.. I can't help it i always feel responsibility to say something when i see an animal suffer or about to suffer. And than it's not an opinion and only say what i know is 100% correct and then it's still up to the other party to believe you or not.  If they think they know beter, then you have a nice status quo doomed to derail and crash.

A friend of mine had a turtle tank on his desk for the kids.. Everytime i viseted the tank was a thorn in my eye with it's tea colored water.. One day i saw it coffee brown, there was more crap than turtle in this tank.. I couldn't resist and said please for heaven sake stop this animal cruelty and give those poor creatures away to somebody who can take care of them or realese them into nature. This is not a turtle  tank this is a poop tank and a bacterial time bomb. Probably my choice of words again did the most damage.. She said, what are you babling about in nature they also poop in their own water!?. He said i was ignoring the fact he was working from 6.00 to 22.00 and i as not helping him with making comments like that. While the tank was for the kids and his son sitting next to that stinky thing playing minecraft and the daughter was chatting with here girlfriend. Of which i didn't say anything or else i would have critizised they way he's raising his children too. I guess that would have been realy to much. It backfired to me with his comment a few weeks later saying, when i know you come over i clean the turtle tank, so i do not have to listen to you nagging about it.. From that day on i scrapped the word turtle from my dictionary at this address and never used that word again and never looked at that room corner again.. Also not told them about the risks of salmonella infection they where risking with neglecting turtles like that. Probably the vet did i guess, he tends to ask others he gives more credit about what i say. He double checks everybody.. One day the turtle tank was gone, i never heard anything about it.... Yes i still was peeking into that corner sometimes, i noticed but didn't say a word.


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## HiNtZ (9 Sep 2016)

zozo said:


> Than you're a bit like me, but i learned to shut up especialy with people who are close to me when not asked for an opinion.. Usualy if not asked, feedback can become (negative) critisism and if it occurs to often it backfires and kicks you in the .... It did to me to often.. I can't help it i always feel responsibility to say something when i see an animal suffer or about to suffer. And than it's not an opinion and only say what i know is 100% correct and then it's still up to the other party to believe you or not.  If they think they know beter, then you have a nice status quo doomed to derail and crash.
> 
> A friend of mine had a turtle tank on his desk for the kids.. Everytime i viseted the tank was a thorn in my eye with it's tea colored water.. One day i saw it coffee brown, there was more crap than turtle in this tank.. I couldn't resist and said please for heaven sake stop this animal cruelty and give those poor creatures away to somebody who can take care of them or realese them into nature. This is not a turtle  tank this is a poop tank and a bacterial time bomb. Probably my choice of words again did the most damage.. She said, what are you babling about in nature they also poop in their own water!?. He said i was ignoring the fact he was working from 6.00 to 22.00 and i as not helping him with making comments like that. While the tank was for the kids and his son sitting next to that stinky thing playing minecraft and the daughter was chatting with here girlfriend. Of which i didn't say anything or else i would have critizised they way he's raising his children too. I guess that would have been realy to much. It backfired to me with his comment a few weeks later saying, when i know you come over i clean the turtle tank, so i do not have to listen to you nagging about it.. From that day on i scrapped the word turtle from my dictionary at this address and never used that word again and never looked at that room corner again.. Also not told them about the risks of salmonella infection they where risking with neglecting turtles like that. Probably the vet did i guess, he tends to ask others he gives more credit about what i say. He double checks everybody.. One day the turtle tank was gone, i never heard anything about it.... Yes i still was peeking into that corner sometimes, i noticed but didn't say a word.



Too true - I've not had anything like that with the tanks (yet), my friends are pretty solid and they've seen how hard I've researched everything (I'm quite meticulous like that and they know it).... one friend said "bloody hell, we got him into tanks and he knows more than us!". I knew at that point I'd said enough and it was now up to them to be bothered to do their own research.

A couple did heed the advice - after a few fatalities I went and tested the waters and found massive ammonia spikes. I think it hit home after that that they should probably make a bit more of an effort, if anything, for their own benefit.

That poor turtle though. If he works 6-10 he shouldn't have animals really.


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## zozo (9 Sep 2016)

He's including his household activities in his work hours.. And you do not want to know how many pets they have, chickens, rabbits, guinea pigs, fish, 3 dogs, hamster.. Turtles are gone by now. And he does it all to make a paradise for his children, he realy is a sweet guy doing th best he can, but not realizing that he's going completely over the top driving himself nuts..But ok besides that..

What baffles me the most is why do have so many people the desire to keep animals in captivity but lak the responsibility to properly care for them. Or do it uninformed very fanaticaly wrong with the idea they do good... This strange contradiction must originate somewhere, but nobody realy seems to care... Why do so many people think so less about animals and their needs?

And there are also many people who do realy good and care very much, so you can't say it aint in human nature.. Because the ones who do, give proof it is in our nature. Bit they are obviously not the majority. But why and how did the others lose it somewhere along the road of evolution.

Can't only blame bussines, because if we all cared more we would all spend more... It's something else.. But what, where and how.. Who knows??


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## kadoxu (11 Sep 2016)

I went to a kid's birthday party yesterday and I remembered this thread... 


 

I didn't ask, but I'm quite sure some poor creature died in there... I was actually glad that it was empty.


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## HiNtZ (13 Sep 2016)

zozo said:


> He's including his household activities in his work hours.. And you do not want to know how many pets they have, chickens, rabbits, guinea pigs, fish, 3 dogs, hamster.. Turtles are gone by now. And he does it all to make a paradise for his children, he realy is a sweet guy doing th best he can, but not realizing that he's going completely over the top driving himself nuts..But ok besides that..
> 
> What baffles me the most is why do have so many people the desire to keep animals in captivity but lak the responsibility to properly care for them. Or do it uninformed very fanaticaly wrong with the idea they do good... This strange contradiction must originate somewhere, but nobody realy seems to care... Why do so many people think so less about animals and their needs?
> 
> ...



I agree - in my case I'm self employed and always at home. We had cats, they died few years ago all within a few months of each other which was heartbreaking. They were 23, 24, and 12 though (she had liver failure the youngest).

We then had 2 chickens, one died as she was pretty old and got ill. The other one is still here on her own, but with us literally the entire day - in the house, out the front and back gardens doing what she wants. We go out and turn things over for her to get the bugs and worms etc, she's really a happy chicken and gets a heap of attention (and treats) constantly all day, every day, 365.

Same goes for my fish, I literally check the tanks hourly (it's almost an obsession!) - but, I really really enjoy it.


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## mort (13 Sep 2016)

I've sold a lot of these ornaments when I ran a lfs. I hate them but people love them and ask for them. I know it's easy to bash people who keep tanks full of them but in truth a lot of the people who bought them were the most dedicated keepers out there. They often bought live plants as well and live foods for their fish. If they had a disease they asked advice and treated accordingly.
so basically poor decor does not make a bad keeper. Some of the "experts" and I use the term entirely wrongly who came in and tutted at a bubbling toilet or a vw van didn't have half as much dedication to their livestock. So whereas I wouldn't have anything unnatural or ever recommend it, does a plec really care if he's living under a luminous castle, skull or piece of slate?


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## Mark Livermore (13 Sep 2016)

I am with Mort, i wouldn't buy the types of ornaments we are talking about, and although pressured by my two girls (4 & 7) for a frozen ornament, wont give in. Although the purchase of such ornaments does not necessarily correspond with poor fish & plant care. 

Considering what site we are on and what the majority of the discussions are about, I am not sure if the fish care about Frozen or Spongebob etc.. anymore than they do about flower pots, lengths of pipe, feeding clips, twinstars, filters, co2 diffusers and drop checkers. I bet all of us on here use or have used some/all of these and never really batted an eyelid. All of these things and many more are so artificial and out of place in a "normal" fish life that whichever you use is largely irrelevant I would have thought, as long as you take proper care of the fish.


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## mort (13 Sep 2016)

In marine fish breeding clownfish are normally kept in tiny cubed (1ftx1ft is common) with just a flowerpot. It's about as far as you can get from wild conditions as you can get but they don't seem bothered by it. 
When I was breeding clownfish I wasn't keen on this kind of setup so bred them in a larger tank with macro algaes. It was more naturalistic but they still bred on a tile and didn't have an anemone. Still it made me feel better which I think is a lot of it, if we like what we create and are proud of it then we take more care with it.


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## HiNtZ (13 Sep 2016)

kadoxu said:


> I went to a kid's birthday party yesterday and I remembered this thread...
> View attachment 91220
> 
> I didn't ask, but I'm quite sure some poor creature died in there... I was actually glad that it was empty.



Bloody hell, is that ADA aquasoil?????


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## kadoxu (14 Sep 2016)

HiNtZ said:


> Bloody hell, is that ADA aquasoil?????


Don't know... but wouldn't be too surprised if it was...


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## roadmaster (14 Sep 2016)

Girlfriend's 7 yr old wanted a fishing pole, and would settle for nothing but a pink rod/reel combo with princess theme adornment's.
Fast forward 2 yrs, and she spied my graphite spinning rod and one of the more expensive reel's of the many cheaper ones I own mounted to it.
After a day of fishing with her and her mother, I gifted the rod/reel combo to her for she and I are pal's/mates.
She is so proud to own it.
That's what it's all about for me at the entrance to my golden year's?


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## HiNtZ (15 Sep 2016)

roadmaster said:


> Girlfriend's 7 yr old wanted a fishing pole, and would settle for nothing but a pink rod/reel combo with princess theme adornment's.
> Fast forward 2 yrs, and she spied my graphite spinning rod and one of the more expensive reel's of the many cheaper ones I own mounted to it.
> After a day of fishing with her and her mother, I gifted the rod/reel combo to her for she and I are pal's/mates.
> She is so proud to own it.
> That's what it's all about for me at the entrance to my golden year's?



That's nice to hear. It's probably a lot lighter and smoother than her old one.

Remember those cheap-o telescopic rods you could get for a tenner? Atrocious!


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## alto (15 Sep 2016)

roadmaster said:


> Girlfriend's 7 yr old wanted a fishing pole, and would settle for nothing but a pink rod/reel combo with princess theme adornment's.
> Fast forward 2 yrs, and she spied my graphite spinning rod and one of the more expensive reel's of the many cheaper ones I own mounted to it.
> After a day of fishing with her and her mother, I gifted the rod/reel combo to her for she and I are pal's/mates.
> She is so proud to own it.


I think this is pretty typical transition


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## alto (24 Sep 2016)

OK ...can't resist 



> I received my first aquarium as an Easter gift when I was nine years old: a ten gallon “complete” kit…complete with undergravel filter, multi-colored gravel,




... an this is the guy's shop today 

Aquarium Zen


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## HiNtZ (28 Sep 2016)

alto said:


> OK ...can't resist
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's pretty impressive!

The website makes me feel physically sick scrolling though


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## alto (28 Sep 2016)

made me want to do a road trip


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## Jack Reilly (15 Oct 2016)

Small tanks full of plastic, birds in cages, dogs and cats waddling at a snail's pace with a long list of health issues at age 7-8 because they've been raised on corn, it's all sad.

Parents are to blame. Quite a few animals suffered under my rule when I was a child. I shudder at the way some of my pets lived. But I was a kid and didn't know better. I did what my parents and the pet shop said was okay.


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## Jack Reilly (16 Oct 2016)

Mark Livermore said:


> Considering what site we are on and what the majority of the discussions are about, I am not sure if the fish care about Frozen or Spongebob etc.. anymore than they do about flower pots, lengths of pipe, feeding clips, twinstars, filters, co2 diffusers and drop checkers. I bet all of us on here use or have used some/all of these and never really batted an eyelid. All of these things and many more are so artificial and out of place in a "normal" fish life that whichever you use is largely irrelevant I would have thought, as long as you take proper care of the fish.


That's true. But the problem with toys in the tank is the focus is no longer about nature. If a child asks you why you have a diffuser in the tank, you have to explain to them how plants grow. If they ask you why you have a plastic toy in the tank, the answer will have nothing to do with the natural world. 

An aquarium can bring a child closer to nature, or take them further away from nature, depending on the tank.


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## Manisha (18 Oct 2016)

Jack Reilly said:


> Small tanks full of plastic, birds in cages, dogs and cats waddling at a snail's pace with a long list of health issues at age 7-8 because they've been raised on corn, it's all sad.
> 
> Parents are to blame. Quite a few animals suffered under my rule when I was a child. I shudder at the way some of my pets lived. But I was a kid and didn't know better. I did what my parents and the pet shop said was okay.



I agree of course, but sometimes intervention is required. My parents rescued cats - at least tried to help the suffering. I found this insufferable at times but appreciate it now because at the point they acted the pet would have been put to sleep otherwise ☺ They homed blind, deaf & cats that had been injured in accidents & lost a limb. Kids can be shortsighted to the bigger picture...


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