# I can't catch fish which I think has pineconing



## peaches (2 Jul 2018)

Did water change today and by bad judgement I did it to usual temp 26 when lately has been 29c because of heatwave.  Before I realised I found one dwarf rainbow with a fat belly and slightly protruding scales her mouth was open as if breathing was rapid.  I tried to get her out but after an hour trying every 10 or so minutes I couldn't catch her. 

Then I and my second brain fart.  I added some salt fortunately not the full recommended dose just 3 tablespoons to 125 litre tank.  Then I realised it might harm the cories.  Possible old wives tale,   but I'm doing another water change to remedy this.

As my brain has deserted me, what shall I do?  To continue to chase the rainbow is causing stress so I stopped.

Rest of tank ok.  Dwarf rainbows Amano shrimp cories ottos nerite snails.  Affected fish appears darker than others too but the pineconing is very slight.  I know I will lose this one but how can I help the rest?


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## Edvet (2 Jul 2018)

I wouldn't worrie about the temperature drop being the cause. Large temperature swings appear in nature.


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## peaches (2 Jul 2018)

Cant have done that much harm. Ive had a pair spawn this morning.


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## zozo (2 Jul 2018)

Dropsy by itself is not a dissease it's a sympton of organ failure, usualy kidney and or liver disfunction causing fluid buildup, bloating the fish making the scales rize up.
By the time this sympton shows it most likely will be to much internal organ damage and unfortenately to late for the fish. The underlaying cause (disease) can be a number of things from simple to long to much stress or parasites or bacterial infection.. Without knowing the excact cause makes it very hard to determine of it is contagious or not. Best thing to help the others is to quarantine the problem fish and try a treatment, or euthanize it straight away since you don't know what to treat it for and recovery is likely not going to happen.

What always works best for me to catch 1 specific fish is using 2 nets.. A small one and a bigger one. Use the small net to follow that fish around without and drive it towards the bigger net.. It requires some practice and hand coordination to do this as gently as possible and not to disturb, distress and havoc the entire tank. It depends a bit on the fish and it's behaivor how to approach it.. In most casses patience and observing the targets behaivor and work out a strategy works best, be gentle and wait for your chance.. Keeping the nets for some time in the tank to make to fish a bit used to them and not see it as an unfamiliar immediate treath helps. 

Only using one net and chase a fish around and try to be quicker is a nerve game driving you both mad sometimes.


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## peaches (2 Jul 2018)

I have ordered a bigger net.   Sounds like Jaws.  But all is well today and I have a full headcount.  I cannot explain it.  I am finding it hard to pick this one female out.   Maybe it was a water quality issue.


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## peaches (3 Jul 2018)

I have tried with a large and a small net.  The afflicted fish is no where to be seen as soon as net comes out.  I have had both nets just sitting in the tank for half an hour, still no sign of the afflicted.  I have had a shrimp sat on the net brazen as anything with a wafer fragment in his hand.  I just feel that although this fish hasnt got any worse, she is keeping apart from rest of group and her mouth is going all the time as if respiration is rapid.  I feel like it is a time bomb for the tank, as I am going on holiday soon and knowing how these things work she will die whilst Im away and everybody will eat the corpse and catch whatever she has.  The scales dont look so bad today but her abdomen is distended.  The only other way round this is to dismantle the hardscape and Im loathe to do that.

Im not sure if the treatments we have to hand would be any use.  So basically at the moment it is a distended abdomen which makes her look a bit like a pregnant guppy rather than a female M. praecox.


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## PARAGUAY (3 Jul 2018)

The two nets way is best but poorly or not some fish have good memories and are really wary of the nets once youve had a failed attempt, have you tried leaving the large net in situ in the tank so its part of the furniture ,if it accepts food place it in that area or near were you might remove hardscape hopefully you will catch it with minimum disturbance


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## AllieG (5 Jul 2018)

Did you manage to catch the fish?


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## Aqua360 (5 Jul 2018)

Could try praziquintel, at least take care of any potential internal parasites for if they eat her


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## peaches (7 Jul 2018)

What I have done is a few days ago I started a half dose of Seachem Paraguard and watched my shrimp and snails.  She is still with us and no worse but you can still tell something is wrong.  I water changed midweek and will do it again later.


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## peaches (14 Jul 2018)

I lost this fish, the symptoms were swollen abdomen and rapid gill movements in the day before death.  I now have another going down with it.  Other tank members appear unaffected.  If I can catch him I will euthanase him.  Im doing another water change too.  I cannot work out whether its an infection they are passing on or if it is just a weakness in the fish.  It has only been the M. Praecox.


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## alto (14 Jul 2018)

I'd guess M praecox group related - historically rainbows are one of the problematic mycobacterium species

Adrian Tappin's article is worth a read (though slightly dated,much of it is still relevant)

A copy is hosted at Rainbow Fish UK (the above link)


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## alto (14 Jul 2018)

Skip ahead to personal Experience Case #1 for fish observations similar to your own


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## peaches (14 Jul 2018)

At the moment I have Myxazin, Protozin, Melafix, Pimafix and Paraguard.  Are any of these treatments worthwhile?  The pineconing scales are NOT visible this time but the swollen absomen and rapid gill movements, with fish hiding behind filter are the main symptomsr


alto said:


> I'd guess M praecox group related - historically rainbows are one of the problematic mycobacterium species
> 
> Adrian Tappin's article is worth a read (though slightly dated,much of it is still relevant)
> 
> A copy is hosted at Rainbow Fish UK (the above link)


Thankyou this case no 1 does sound like my fish.  Fatty liver and mycobacterium.  I have just been told by my GP I have fatty liver disease too!  Should I be looking for a food which is lower in fat for the fish?  They have mostly Tetra Prima, but are not averse to stealing algae wafers.  
The report also states "numbers of myco-bacteria have been correlated with warmer temperatures"  Obviously in the UK over the past few weeks it has been warmer than usual and the tank has been around 29.

I have set up another tank in another part of the house for granddaughters.  It is worrying me that I will use the same python to waterchange.  I havent got any fish in the new tank yet.  Should I make another hose system for the new tank to be on the safe side?  I presume it could be passed on.


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## peaches (14 Jul 2018)

Does mycobacteria affect shrimp?


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## peaches (14 Jul 2018)

Would a UV steriliser help?


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## techfool (15 Jul 2018)

Diana Walstad had terrible problems with rainbowfish and disease. steriliser helped.
As a sidenote, I can't keep these guys alive in my hard water.


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## alto (15 Jul 2018)

My opinion is that mycobacterium infection is "permanent" ... while it may go "underground" for a time, fish remain infected, and an active disease state is only a stressor away, eg, transport, unsuitable environs (including inappropriate tankmates, low water quality etc), some other predisposing illness/infection etc, etc

The only "cure" is euthanasia & complete tank breakdown & sterilization (not a simple matter as indicated in the artcie)

OTOH some ornamental fish species seem notably more susceptible to mycobacterium ... rainbow fish (I'm undecided about incidence in pseudomugil species, certainly it is much less discussed among these species - initially only wild caught forms were available long after farm bred had become the standard source for the larger rainbow species), Bettas, gouramis are definitely among the IT Fish

I stopped keeping Rainbow fish several years ago
I keep Bettas as I tend to keep them fairly isolated - small tanks, often species tank 
I'm a keen fan of Sphaerichthys "chocolate" gourami species & these tend to form the basis of any community tanks (ie any other fish are selected as suitable companions to the "choco's" )
I have lost shoals of choco's to what seems likely to be mycobacterium BUT without necropsy this is ONLY a guess
I've never lost the companion fish in these tanks to similar symptoms - even after complete loss of the choco community - this happens over  2-3 years ... note Sphaerichthys species are not easily kept long term, it may also be a virus or iridovirus (often relatively species specific) rather than a mycobacterium species
I've not observed any significant shrimp losses

I keep my tanks very "clean" re large water changes every 2-3 days (occasionally weekly  BUT S vaillanti definitely prefer very clean water ... they are much more active), limited nutrients for plants, fish prefer frozen foods so again less of a complex mixture than prepared foods (especially upon breakdown)

Perhaps with less attention to maintenance, disease transfer to companion fish might be an issue 
- the main predisposing factor in fish illness is poor water quality 

I also use a Python Water Changer - I always thoroughly rinse the hose etc between tanks (it tends to be well rinsed anyway with tap refill water) & will also do a "hot water rinse & hold" (hot water runs 130 - 135 *F) before the next tank

You could run a bleach "bolus" inbetween but I rarely do this as I'm concerned about chlorine residues re sensitive fish & shrimp

I suspect the "syphon" tube is more a contamination concern than the hose as it remains in the various tanks for several minutes - you might consider investing in separate syphon tubes 

Aquarium grade UV sterilizers are very minimally effective (artcile also discusses the UV enegies required to impact various fish pathogens) - if you had one already, carry on
But I'd not invest in one
Rainbowfish colonies have been wiped out even with decent UV sterilizers inline, so it's not any sort of preventive guarantor 

To maintain tank "coolness" - keep lights off, add floating frozen water bottles or actual ice blocks, fan on water surface etc 

I doubt the recent heat wave was a determining factor factor in your fish illness presentation. ... likely it's just "time"


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## peaches (15 Jul 2018)

I euthanased the fish with symptoms last night.  I am expecting to come back from holiday and find a few more missing and of course the other tank inhabitants will eat the corpses and become infected.  I have no idea what to do now. I noticed with the one that died and the one I euthanased that they isolate themselves from the group a little first, then start hanging near the surface.  I am now viewing every fish with a suspicious eye.  The tank is set up to run itself on holiday with auto feeder etc.  The only steriliser I will be able to get at short notice would be a Fish R Fun one.  I have asked before, the LFS doesnt have the Vecton ones.  If anyone else has any suggestions please make them.


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## jameson_uk (15 Jul 2018)

Lost all 10 of my Dwarf Neon Rainbowfish with similar problems (https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/rainbowfish-nitrates.50151/).  

None of the other inhabitants have shown anything similar but I found lots of stories of people loosing these.

Shame as these are really nice looking fish.


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## peaches (15 Jul 2018)

jameson_uk said:


> Lost all 10 of my Dwarf Neon Rainbowfish with similar problems (https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/rainbowfish-nitrates.50151/).
> 
> None of the other inhabitants have shown anything similar but I found lots of stories of people loosing these.
> 
> Shame as these are really nice looking fish.


Were other different species of fish in the same tank affected by the disease? (sorry about grammar, no neat way to say that!)  Or was it just M.praecox?


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## jameson_uk (15 Jul 2018)

peaches said:


> Were other different species of fish in the same tank affected by the disease? (sorry about grammar, no neat way to say that!)  Or was it just M.praecox?


I have Sterbai Cory, black neon tetras, otos, nerites and amanos.  It was only the M.praecox and I have not had a death in several months since I euthanised the last one.


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## peaches (16 Jul 2018)

It's an awful thing to have to do, but if any more show signs I will have to do it and start again.


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## alto (16 Jul 2018)

Depending on # of rainbows & your level of objectivity, consider removing all rainbows before your holiday - remove to a separate bin with a sponge filter while you're away (how long is holiday?) or euthanize ...

Preventing other stock from consuming these dying/dead fish is strongly preferred - what other livestock are in tank? 

If rainbows continue to pass at similar rate to these last two, will tank be overwhelmed with bioload???

I'd not buy any hobby grade UV - they won't provide any protection against mycobacterium (& very little else)

Re infection of other stock, disease progress is measured in months to years, so it's very difficult to assess infected state on companion fish


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