# CO2 & Light Demands



## skeletonw00t

Hi,

I have a question about the CO2 concentration in tanks & the light demands that follow it.

Does the CO2 work in the same way that ferts do - in that the CO2 uptake is capped & that upping CO2 will just mean that the CO2 will not be a factor in limiting plant growth.

Or

Does CO2 work like lighting - in that increasing CO2 will increase the plants demand for light & nutrients.

The reason I ask is that i have very high CO2 in my tank & am also dosing EI. I am still getting slow growth though. The reason I suspect is that my lighting is low & my bulbs are too old.

I use 2 x 25watt T8 tubes in a 130 litre tank - the bulbs are around 14 months old.

I was considering upgrading to a T5 Luminare - or maybe just trying replacing the bulbs.


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## Ian Holdich

the T5 lights will give a better PAR rating, so in turn will put extra demand on the plants. This will increase growth rates as long as the C02 is good enough (which after following your thread, i'm sure it is), and the rest will follow. Incidentally i'm running the same lighting on my tan as you and i'm going to probably end up doing the same as you and getting a T5 unit for my next scape as i found it quite hard to grow HC under T8 lighting in my tank.

so, in a nutshell, having loads of C02 will not make the plants grow quicker, the lighting will do that, the C02 will be the building blocks.


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## spyder

skeletonw00t said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> I have a question about the CO2 concentration in tanks & the light demands that follow it.
> 
> Does the CO2 work in the same way that ferts do - in that the CO2 uptake is capped & that upping CO2 will just mean that the CO2 will not be a factor in limiting plant growth.
> 
> Or
> 
> Does CO2 work like lighting - in that increasing CO2 will increase the plants demand for light & nutrients.



Co2 uptake is capped by light. Light drives demand for co2 - nutrients. Adding more co2 allows you to use stronger lighting, which will then drive up demand for nutrients. Excess co2 won't cause more demand for light. Light is the overall driving force.


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## ceg4048

I agree 100% with Spyder. Also, what do old bulbs have to do with anything? CO2 grows plants. If you are adding CO2 and your plants are not growing faster then they did when you did not have CO2 then you have to immediately suspect that your flow and distribution are poor. In any case you need a frame of reference because growth rates depend on species as well as light, CO2 and nutrients. Are you looking at slow growing plants like moss and carpet plants? They grow very slowly compared to stems. There are lots of people using T8 and who have great success and excellent growth rates and it is always a mistake to lose ones nerve and add more light, because you must confirm that your CO2 diffusion and execution is solid. If it is not then adding more light will simply trigger algal blooms. The choice is yours of course, but if you are even asking this question then I can tell immediately that the answer is to stay away from high light until you figured out how to grow plants with the lights you have.

Cheers,


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## skeletonw00t

*CO2 & Light Demands*

Hi Ceg,

Well my flow is around 20x - driven by my filter & a koralia.

Co2 is being injected directly into the filter at about 6-8 bubbles per second. The drop checker is always yellow too. Co2 does not have a solenoid.

I am dosing ferts - an all in one mix & am dosing heavily on that - the exact mix im using is what you recommended in the ei tutorial forum (for an all in one mix). Im overdosing on this pretty much so i know nutrients arent an issue either.

I'm not getting algae either - just slow growth.

So my only conclusion is that my light isn't strong enough to encourage faster growth in my tank. Afterall 50watts of T8 light in a 45cm deep 130litre tank is pretty low lighting really?!

I might try replacing the bulbs as this increases the Par rating according to Georges article in Pfk.

I remember about 7 months ago when i was getting better growth even when using a poorer co2 method (difuser in the corner of the tank) and i think that was because the bulbs werent as old & were therefore giving more light?


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## ceg4048

Most people don't have any problems with old bulbs, unless they don't turn on when you flip the switch.

The problem with 45cm has less to do with light traveling 45cm than CO2 traveling 45cm. Therefore I would question your distribution. If you're not getting algae and if the plants are not rotting then that's a good sign certainly. Are you certain that the only difference between now and 7 months ago is just the bulbs? Nothing else has changed, like big leaves that have grown up blocking flow?

Adding more light definitely increases growth rates, there's no doubt about that, you just need to ensure that you have ticked all the boxes and that more light is the last on the list of things to tick.

Cheers,


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## skeletonw00t

Well the things that have changed over the 7 months are:

CO2 & Distribution - i previously used a diffuser in the tank corner & this was pumping LESS CO2 into the tank... so if anything my co2 has increased & distribution improved due to the direct-into-filter method.

Plants have grown & may be blocking flow slightly... BUT I have compensated this by adding a koralia - 1500ltr/hr pump & i can see clearly from watching the tank that the flow is strong all around the tank. 

The plants aren't rotting no & there is very little algae (I just clean the glass & rocks weekly) but the growth is slow & my Staurogyne growth has slowed in particular. 

Honestly I'd love for you to be able to sort of assess the tank hands on as I reckon you'd be just as at a loss as me - It's like I am missing a key ingredient for successful growth .... only I'm not.

CO2 - always yellow - being driven around the tank by 20x turnover.
Nutrients overdosed so always available.
The only thing I could think of would be a light deficiency...

I currently have my lights on for 6 hours a day - do you think I should increase this and see if it helps?


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## ceg4048

OK, yep, increase the period to 8-9 hours and see how you get on.

Got photos?

Cheers,


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## Iain Sutherland

If you do wish to increase your light at some point I have a 3 foot 4x 39w t5 luminaire I am selling


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## Skatersav

Just a thought...  Somtimes the in-line diffusers create a sort of bubble haze through the tank.  Mike Appleby, who I consider a very credible commentator on the planted aquarium hobby, has intimated in one of his posts that some of these bubbles might collect in the CO2 drop checker and distort the reading.  Perhaps this is worth considering given you are using an in-line diffuser, as it might be that your CO2 levels are not as high as you think.  Good luck in any case.


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## skeletonw00t

*CO2 & Light Demands*

My co2 injects into the filter so no bubbles in the tank


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## skeletonw00t

Ok Ceg - as requested here are some pics

the rocks need a clean!

As you can see i have a problem with Dirt - it seems to collect all round the tank - even with 20x turn over.

Could it be that this is some form of algae and not dirt? I'm beginning to think the scape is just that old that it needs to be redone?









DC is always this colour


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## spyder

I would move the drop checker lower. You are getting readings near the surface when a few inches off the substrate co2 levels could be totally different.


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## skeletonw00t

Ok I will but i can guarentee it will be the same lol - tried it before.


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## spyder

I was thinking as co2 bubbles rise it will show higher reading near the surface but 99% of you plant mass is in the lower water column. There could be a big difference in co2 levels.

I remember another thread about this tank a while ago and think the outcome was lack of ferts. If I remember correctly you changed ferts then had mega pearling and things were picking up. Your DC does look a bit on the yellowish side.

How is the flow returned to the tank? Which way is the flow running? A shot showing this would be interesting.


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## skeletonw00t

*CO2 & Light Demands*

Flow goes from top right towards left of the tank - then is pushed down the left side and along the bottom back towards the filter intake.


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## skeletonw00t

*CO2 & Light Demands*

Also i dont have any co2 bubbles in my tank as its injected into the filter - so no bubbles will rise into the DC


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## ceg4048

That's a very dirty tank so it needs to be cleaned more often. Dirt stifles plant growth and if that is organic detritus then it is pulling Oxygen from the water column. What is your water change schedule?

Yur mindset should be to keep the tank immaculately clean. Layers of dirt on the surface of the leaves blocks CO2 and nutrients from penetrating across the tissue membrane. When you do a water change you should use your fingers and rub the dirt/film from the leaves so that they are pristine. This is definitely part of your problem.

I cannot tell from those shots whether it is indeed diatomic algae or just regular detritus, but whatever it is, it's stopping plant growth. Do 99% water changes if you need , and as often as you need to get rid of that muck, and quick mate.

Cheers,


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## spyder

skeletonw00t said:
			
		

> Also i dont have any co2 bubbles in my tank as its injected into the filter - so no bubbles will rise into the DC



Have another look at the shot of your dropchecker. I don't think it is pearling!


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## skeletonw00t

*CO2 & Light Demands*

I agree Ceg - my problem is that i seem to be making it worse by cleaning it... Im doing 2x weekly 50% changes & i was vacuuming the tank and everything. I just can't seem to shift all of the dirt - its so annoying!


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## spyder

What is the substrate? I have Oliver Knot in a nano and when I moved plants around everything gets covered in a similar fashion. Could the substrate be deteriorating and giving off this dust as it's an old setup?


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## dw1305

Hi all,
I can't help with the CO2 distribution, but the dirty look is definitely a short algal "turf". You would need to look at it a lot more closely, but it looks like it might be the combination of _Rhizoclonium_ and Diatoms. Your plants do look a bit yellow as well, which is often caused by lack of nitrogen. 

Personally I'd add some floating plants, dose a little bit more KNO3 and then wait and I'm pretty sure it will go away after a couple of months. You could also try some snails, I know they aren't universally popular but the combination of MTS and Red Ramshorn Snails is very effective at surface cleaning.

cheers Darrel


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## ceg4048

None of those shots show how you are distributing the flow. Having high flow rates is not enough, it must be distributed properly....

Cheers,


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## skeletonw00t

*CO2 & Light Demands*

Flow is distributed via a standard filter intake & outlet (no spraybar) the outtake is placed at the top right - facing the left of the tank.

Also at the top right is a koralia nano - both are blowing in the same direction. Ill upload a video of the flow shortly


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## skeletonw00t

Ok a video of my flow is here:



Apologies for the TV - my girlfriend was watching One Born Every Minute :/


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## ceg4048

Yeah, I knew the ending before I saw the movie. I advise to rework your distribution. Try a spraybar. Right-to-left dissipates flow badly and flow from the powerheads crash into flow from the filter outlet. At least if you don't like the spraybar then you should have all the filter and pump effluent pointing from back to front instead of across the length of the tank. It's not always necessary to have this configuration, but it's always a good place to start.

Cheers,


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## skeletonw00t

*CO2 & Light Demands*

Ah ok thanks Ceg. I thought the way i am doing it was the best way?

I have a glass lilly pipe - think I should try that? I used it very briefly before - it creates a flow thatsort of shoots down towards the middle of the tank.

Also if I switch to lilly pipes - where would you recommend placing the powerhead?


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## spyder

You can see the co2 bubbles flying across the tank at around mid level. Flow looks good in the top half of the water column. Unfortunately, you want it like that at the substrate.

Running the outlet across the length of the tank means by the time it hits the opposite wall it has lost a lot of momentum. Using a spraybar from the back to front will ensure enough velocity to hit the front and get the co2 down to the substrate where it is required. There is hardly any movement in your tennelus (if it is) in the center of the tank.


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## ceg4048

Exactly. I don't really like lilly pipes so I abandoned them years ago. This is not to say that they do not work but If I were you  I would first try the spraybars. They are cheap and easy. Even if later on you don't like the aesthetics at least you will get to understand flow in your tank.

Ideally, if you had strong enough filters you would use a configuration like this that stretches all the way across the length of the tank:






This is the surest way to get flow to that tangle of weeds on the right side of the tank.

Cheers,


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## skeletonw00t

*CO2 & Light Demands*

I really dont like spraybars - they are well ugly :/

Is there any other way i could do this?


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## skeletonw00t

*CO2 & Light Demands*

What ive done is pointed the powerhead downwards - so its still pointing the same way as the filter outlet - but its just shooting down towards the javafern a bit. 

Might mix it up a bit lol.

Tbh planted tanks are a bit of a stress. Am planning a rescape without plants i think - im sure i can create a stylish scape without any of the stresses!


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## CeeJay

Hi skeletonw00t


			
				skeletonw00t said:
			
		

> Tbh planted tanks are a bit of a stress.


They are only "a bit of a stress" when things go wrong and you don't have the answers. 
Once you know the answers for your tank, you'll wonder what all the fuss was about   .


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## plantbrain

skeletonw00t said:
			
		

> I really dont like spraybars - they are well ugly :/
> 
> Is there any other way i could do this?



I abandoned the spray bar a long time ago. Not fond of the lily pipe either.


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## skeletonw00t

*CO2 & Light Demands*

What method do you use?


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## ceg4048

Yes they are very ugly and as pointed out by Tom, they are not a "necessity". As long as you have excellent flow throughput from the filter, which I'm pretty sure Tom has (right Tom?), then you'll be OK. The problem is that you don't have sufficient flow through the filter to overcome the distance of the length of the tank. Tom's CO2 diffusion method may also differ. Are you using a needle wheel impeller on that tank Tom? There are lots of different ways to skin a cat, but the cat should have the skin you're looking for...

Cheers,


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## skeletonw00t

*CO2 & Light Demands*

I thought when you had 100% dissolved co2 you didnt need to worry about flow as much as you didn't need to get the bubbles everywhere & water would flow there anyway?

I think Ceg that as my plant mass has increased its stifled flow somewhat from when the tank first started - even with the use of a powerhead.

Not really sure what i can do to create better flow though - i tried pointing both the powerhead & the filter outlet to the front glass but this did not seem to create a strong current.


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## ceg4048

Hi mate,
           You don't have 100% dissolved CO2, and, 90% of what CO2 you do have goes straight out the top of the tank to add to the greenhouse effect on the planet. We've already given you an easy solution but it's not pretty enough for you. That crud on the bottom of the tank looks a lot uglier than spraybars though. If it were me, I would solve the plant health problem first while I work on an more aesthetic way to achieve the goal.

Cheers,


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## skeletonw00t

*CO2 & Light Demands*

Ok i'll dig out a spraybar i think i have one.

I just cant see how thats going to create a strong enough though as i tried pointing the outlet to the front and this created next to know current around the plants :/

Also - isn't co2 injected into the filter 100% disolved? My DC is yellow still at the bottom of the tank.

Should i set my spraybar up so that it points straight down perhaps!?


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## ceg4048

But didn't you say that you had a bunch of powerheads? What spyder and I were trying to explain to you was that the total combined energy of your pumps and filter are best served if they all point in the same direction. Secondly, we were saying that the best direction to point all that energy was from the back wall to the front glass. They should all be pointing straight ahead. These were the key points because the distance from back to front is much shorter than the distance from left to right. The front glass deflects the flow downward and the substrate deflects it towards the back where the plants are. So the trick is basically sneaking the flow from underneath the plants, broadside. you can get a much more even flow from underneath and as the current rises the CO2 makes contact for a longer time. This is the opposite of what you have now where the co2 enriched water is mostly above the plants and the gas escapes upwards, not downwards, so your contact time is very poor. So it doesn't matter how much concentration you have if the water does not touch the leaf for very long.

Space the powerheads and spraybar evenly across the back wall along the top and point all flow horizontal towards the front glass. Do not point the holes or the pumps downwards as this defeats the scheme. We are using the glass to route the water underneath the bottom leaves because that is where the plants are mostly starved.

It's OK if this setup is too ugly. Right now just solve the problem. You may need to invest in a stronger filter which you can then use in the original configuration, and this stronger filter may have enough muscle to work the way Tom's setup shows. But you are not there yet, so this is as good as you can get for now. Again, you may have to play with the placement of the pumps. You may have to mount them mostly towards the right side instead of having them evenly space across the length. Try to get the leaves gently swaying in the current the setup that generates the most motion will most likely generate the best flow through the plant beds. This is what you need to concentrate on.

Cheers,


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## skeletonw00t

*CO2 & Light Demands*

Ok thanks i'll try the spraybar set up.

However, i dont think any filter will let me run it in the normal way like Toms... My filter is 1500litre/hr & i also have a 1500litre/hr powerhead that is already pointing in the same direction as the filter.... So i'd need a filter with over 3000litr/hr to get good results?


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## ceg4048

Well I'm not really sure what Tom's flow rate is. He'll have to provide the details, but if you have a 130L tank then a 1500L filter should do a decent job because that easily satisfies the 10X rule. If you say that you were not getting decent flow out of it then I'd have to suspect that there is a problem with the filter, maybe a blockage or something like that. A 1500LPH rated filter should produce an actual flow of about 700LPH so maybe you can test this by pointing the outlet pipe into a container and using a stopwatch to time the flow for say, 10 seconds. Measure how much water is in the container and multiply that value by 360, which would give you the actual LPH. 

If you port that flow into a spraybar you should get a pretty good spray across the width of the tank. The jets should easily hit the front glass. If you then mount the powerhead in the location along the back wall that the spraybar doesn't reach then that would help give you even flow along the length of the tank. Another configuration you could try would be to mount the powerhead just under the spraybar. Since most of your plant mass is on the left then mounting both on that side might be a better idea. You just need to play around with that for a while to see what works best. Remember also that you don't need to have the filter chock full of media. Media slows down the flow so you can take half of it out to get you better throughput. You also need to check that you don't have any kinks in the tubing and make sure that you haven't connected some other equipment that reduces the nominal pipe diameter.

In any case, squirting the water across the short distance of the tank is easier then squirting it across the longest dimension, so just give it a try and see how you get on.

Cheers,


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## spyder

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> In any case, squirting the water across the short distance of the tank is easier then squirting it across the longest dimension, so just give it a try and see how you get on.
> 
> Cheers,



Exactly this.

On my 125l the filter is rated at 1250lph so 10x rule is covered. Using inline atomiser which may reduce flow a little and using a spraybar the length of the tank I had to tape up every other hole as the velocity dropped off. Bouncing it from the back to the front you can watch from the side of the tank the co2 mist hitting the substrate and then rolling towards the back, flowing through the plants. I couldn't imagine attempting to distribute the flow the way that you have. There would be very little velocity when it got to the other side.

I agree that even thought it's a little ugly I would have a spraybar any day if it improved the health of my plants.


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## skeletonw00t

*CO2 & Light Demands*

Ok cool. Thanks guys - i'm going to hook the spray bar up and see if it works better. My filter is working fine and the flow is as strong as it was when new. I guess its just a combination of the length of my tank & plant mass & the loss of velocity not allowing a good flow around the mass.

Maybe even due this plant mass the flow is even taking the "easier" route of going along the front of the tank where there is no plants?! This would make sense as i can ser lots of flow at the front ( even at substrate level) but the plants in the middle arent moving too much


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## spyder

skeletonw00t said:
			
		

> Maybe even due this plant mass the flow is even taking the "easier" route of going along the front of the tank where there is no plants?! This would make sense as i can ser lots of flow at the front ( even at substrate level) but the plants in the middle arent moving too much



I think it maybe whats bouncing off the left side and coming along the front glass higher up in the water column. That flow may push some along the bottom near the front, if you understand what I mean. Back to front will give best results though as it has a lot less distance to travel.


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## skeletonw00t

*CO2 & Light Demands*

Ok i installed my spraybar today... It's so ugly 

Hopefully it will make a big difference to my plants though! 

I can see lots more movement of the plants now & the currant is flowing nicely from the top down to the bottom. I'll put a pic/video on soon!

I also put the powerhead at the other end where the spraybar didnt reach - pointing at the front of the glass!


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## ceg4048

Bravo! Give it a couple weeks and see how it goes. You know, they do sell fancy Gucci glas spraybars. I thought I remembered CalAqua selling these but maybe it was someone else. Also, Fluval sell a smoky grey set that disappears when placed just under the water surface. I think powerheads are way uglier than spraybars. Like I mentioned, if you mount the just under the surface they do tend to disappear. I think your scape also doe not lend itself to the bars beause of the angles and open space at the back. People with jungle style scapes and with tall trees in the back don't complain too much. I beg your pardon, I never promised you a rose garden...  

Cheers,


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## skeletonw00t

*CO2 & Light Demands*

Haha no worries. I may remove the powerhead once i get the plants health & tank sorted later on.

Main thing i guess now is just to get the key elements right like you say. Once i master these i'll have a play around with the aesthetics.

I'll have a look at these glass spraybars... Sounds interesting. This one i have now is jet black & is ugly. But maybe if i put a black background on the tank it would look ok...


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## skeletonw00t

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afuzAia2 ... AAAAAAAAAA

Spraybar installed!

Pearling is due to a waterchange & clean up I did.

Everything looks nice & clean now - lets just hope the spray bar keeps it this way.


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## spyder

Looks a lot better at substrate level now.

I went back to your opening post and noticed you have twin T8's over 130l. I have the twin T5's over 125l . Will be interesting to see how things improve over the coming weeks. 

I have to agree with Clive about powerheads looking uglier than a spraybar. Spraybars ain't that bad.


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## skeletonw00t

Some pics of the set up here:

I put my DC at the bottom of the front - to see what CO2 is like there - as you can see... its yellow


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## skeletonw00t

*CO2 & Light Demands*

Mmm not sure if this method is making any diff to growth...


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## Iain Sutherland

Give it a chance, its wont change immeadiately. The plants have been struggling since set up, it will take some time for them to find their feet again.


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## skeletonw00t

*CO2 & Light Demands*

Well it's been a few days now and I haven't really notices any difference. I think I would of seen it :/

It's almost as if my tank has no co2 going in it... Despite my DC is yellow?!


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## skeletonw00t

*CO2 & Light Demands*

I've also come to the conclussion that the "dirt" im getting on plant leaves is algae - like a brown dust.

I keep cleaning the leaves but it just comes back.

Really starting to get angry with this tank now as it just goes against all logic.

Low light, excellent flow, lots of nutrients, yellow DC co2, regular water changes.

Like even my java fern is struggling to grow new leaves - and i've never had any issues with this plant & used it several times in the past.

I go away for a week in March so i think I'm going to redo the tank when I come back - think I'll do rocks only & some moss or something easy.


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## skeletonw00t

*CO2 & Light Demands*

I reckon it's my co2 - i reckon this injecting into the filter is a rubbish way of doing it. Maybe I should try and UP inline atomizer & run that! 

Also whats it mean when java fern leaves are all deformed (3 tips & long stems on the leaves etc)!?


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## spyder

Up inlines are good I love mine.

As already posted, give it 2-3 weeks before making any assumptions or tweaks. Your plants need time to adjust to the new conditions.


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## skeletonw00t

*CO2 & Light Demands*

Isn't it the case whereby if the flow & co2 are right then i would notice the difference that same day?

Ie. new noticable growth in rhe faster growing species!?


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## ceg4048

No, it's not the case at all. You may have to wait several weeks. This is like saying that if I give a starving man a big meal I will see him gain weight the same day. The only things that happen quickly in a planted tank are bad things.

Cheers,


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## skeletonw00t

*CO2 & Light Demands*

Is there any benefit to having a yellow DC rather than Lime green?

I lowered my co2 slightly & my fish seem way happier- actually swimming around now rather than sat in 1 corner. But will this lime green mean growth/algae will be affected?


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## ceg4048

Hi mate,
           Well, at the end of the day, the fish health is more important than high plant growth rate. If the tank was not populated with fauna, then the answer to your question would be;
 "Yes, a yellow dropchecker is always better than a green reading because it means more CO2 uptake by the plants". 

But because you do have fish in the tank, the answer is;
"No, CO2 is highly toxic to fish and as long as you are not overpowering the tank with high light or starving it with poor flow/distribution, you should be able to achieve adequate growth rates with a green DC, while at the same time, safeguarding your fishes health and well being".

Cheers,


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## skeletonw00t

*CO2 & Light Demands*

Thanks ceg - i thought it might be the second one - and how now I'm using the spraybar then the co2 will be being distributed more effectively anyway.

Lighting is only at 7hours a day too.

Have ordered another spraybar for my filter too so that I can extend it right the way across the tank - I may also add a black background outside the tann which will hide the pipework quite well i think.


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## niru

Hi

Looking at the tank, I think the big stones are messing with the flow as well.. Before the co2 rich water can go from below the plants (as Ceg mentioned), the stones are lifting it up towards the no-plant volume of the tank. 1 or 2 such rounds and the co2 is gone. So my hunch is that even if you have great co2 (yellow DC), great flow (10X rule), the hardscape design might be the culprit. Naturally the dust settles down on the grass and other plants (a much stronger flow will cause more dust, deteriorating the situation further). This blocks the plant cells from taking ferts & co2, as well as helps algae settle down on the leaves. Kind of vicious cycle..

Moving the rocks, or making sure that the flow actually passes through the deep valleys in between the rocks might help.

My 2 cents.

-niru


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## skeletonw00t

*CO2 & Light Demands*

Thanks for that - i agree I think the stones are blocking it to degree... Not much I can do though really without changing the scape drastically...

Im going to do a rescape in march so  i'll do something better thought out then!


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## niru

Maybe putting a Koralia exclusively for squirting the dirt from the crevasses might help. Run it occasionally over all plants to remove the dust..


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## skeletonw00t

*CO2 & Light Demands*

I've removed the Koralia - i think i'm getting better flow without it as it interupts the flow generated by the spraybar.

I think one thing i am missing is a clean up crew. All my shrimp died & my oto's were pretty inactive due to a yellow DC.

So i have 30 cherry shrimp on order, lowered co2 to lime green, going to buy 2 more oto's & also added some snails. These should help i think with reducing the bio film on leaves!


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## skeletonw00t

The other part to my spraybar arrived... it now stretches across the whole of the back of the tank ;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S05gRhsY ... ature=plcp

hows the flow looking? it doesn't seem to of slowed at all by adding the extra piece of tubing...


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## skeletonw00t

edit: better video of the spraybar in action here, does the flow look powerful enough?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9mXxxNY ... ature=plcp


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## spyder

It looks fine. My flow was a little weak so I taped up every other hole to increase the velocity slightly.

What I do is look down the tank from the side. With the co2 mist on I can see it going down the front glass then rolling to the back of the tank. Remember though, if all plants are gently swaying then they should be getting the co2 and nutrients they require delivered to them as we can presume your dosing and co2 is sufficient.

I would be tempted to prune the bit's of Staurogyne you have in there and replant in a clear, unobstructed area that gets good flow. You can then use those to judge growth rates and compare with the plants in and around the hardscape.

So 9 days with the spraybar now, I expect next weeks posts will be about all the new leaves your plants are putting out and how green and lush they are looking.


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## skeletonw00t

Still getting brown algae/diatoms.

Really don't know why... Flow is right, lighting isn't high & only on for 7 hours daily, co2 is lime-green, ferts are EI.

Ordered some Flourish Excel - hopefully I can nuke it using that!


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## skeletonw00t

I've also just read that excess silicates can cause diatoms/brown algae...

Could it be that 
A) I added some fresh sand recently and this has caused it?

or 

B) I always disturb my sand so that the algaefied top layer goes to the bottom & the top layer looks nice & clean again...

Is it ok to do this?

also - is it true that brown algae is caused by too little light?!


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## Happi

any update on this thread? am looking forward to it, as am dealing with the same issue in my tank.


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## skeletonw00t

Yeah - see my two posts above lol.

I'm going to try a blackout to get rid of the Diatoms.


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## Happi

i mean how are the plants now. any growth


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## skeletonw00t

*CO2 & Light Demands*

Starting to see growth yeah BUT diatoms won't go away - so I think I need a blackout to nuke them. 

Am I right in thinking that this is the case - and that this type of algae won't just go away on its own even if conditions are correct?


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## ceg4048

skeletonw00t said:
			
		

> I've also just read that excess silicates can cause diatoms/brown algae...
> 
> Could it be that
> A) I added some fresh sand recently and this has caused it?
> 
> or
> 
> B) I always disturb my sand so that the algaefied top layer goes to the bottom & the top layer looks nice & clean again...
> 
> Is it ok to do this?
> 
> also - is it true that brown algae is caused by too little light?!


Check this thread-
http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=18067

It's OK to disturb the sediment just prior to a water change. Blackouts a d reduction of lighting will help reduce diatomic algae.

Cheers,


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## spyder

skeletonw00t said:
			
		

> Still getting brown algae/diatoms.
> 
> Really don't know why... Flow is right, lighting isn't high & only on for 7 hours daily, co2 is lime-green, ferts are EI.
> 
> Ordered some Flourish Excel - hopefully I can nuke it using that!



Dont fancy oto's?


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## skeletonw00t

*CO2 & Light Demands*

I have 2 and all they do is stay at 1 side of the tank and never seem to be active :/

Might buy some more once ive done a blackout... Day 2 at the moment


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## skeletonw00t

Had a peak into the tank earlier too see whats going on during the black out.

Am I ok to turn the lights on for 2 minutes during a blackout to inspect?

There was a lot of dirt in the tank getting blown around etc - is this because the diatoms are dying and are starting to "let go" of their grip on things and are then being blown about?


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## ceg4048

Hopefully so, but why isn't your filter picking this up? Also, no peeking is allowed...  

Cheers,


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## skeletonw00t

Not sure Ceg - could it be because of the way the spraybar is set up across the back that its just pushing dirt round and round & not actually into the inlet?

Serious about no peeking lol? will 2 mins of light hurt the process??!


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## ceg4048

For diatoms it may not hurt, but try doing that when you have a BGA bloom and you'll cause yourself more grief than you care for...

Cheers,


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## skeletonw00t

Guess I'll be leaving it alone now then lol.

How long a blackout is good? I started monday - perhaps leave until sunday?


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## ceg4048

Well blackouts are usually 3-4 days and there is always the option of repeating it. CO2 needs to be shut off of course but nutrients can be dosed - at night, so that no light gets in. You have to remember that light causes algae, so when you open the shades and let light in it helps algae recover from a punch in the gut.

Cheers,


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## skeletonw00t

*CO2 & Light Demands*

Can it really recover that fast?!?

I turned co2 off yeah


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## ceg4048

You better believe it pal. That's why algae are so successful, while your lumbering plants melt into oblivion if conditions are not perfect, remember?

Cheers,


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## skeletonw00t

*CO2 & Light Demands*

Why can't we grow pretty forms of algae instead then! It would be ao much easier!!!


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## skeletonw00t

*CO2 & Light Demands*

Black out done - and wow!

Amazing how much difference it makes. I thought id need to scrub all my rocks but they are all like new! Sand is clean too.

I'll post some pics once the waters cleared as i did a 70% water change 

Now... Hopefully with my spraybar set up etc the diatoms wont come back


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## ceg4048

Good stuff. Cross fingers mate. Keep the CO2 up...

Cheers,


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## skeletonw00t

Will do!

Maintaining a lime-greeny-yellow colour for now. Flow seems pretty strong all over the tank too so hopefully it will be ok.

I'm dosing a little Flourish Excel daily for a while just to be sure


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## skeletonw00t

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQEaS-ge ... ature=plcp 

little video 

poor quality i know


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## dw1305

Hi all,


> Why can't we grow pretty forms of algae instead then! It would be so much easier!!!


 I think there are plenty of types of really attractive algae, unfortunately I'm not sure they would be easy to grow.

The "Stoneworts", _Chara_ and _Nitella_ spp. are UK examples.

_Chara vulgaris_



.

_Nitella_ as an Aquarium plant 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	




I also quite like red algae (like BBA) in the right circumstances. This is a Polish _Apistogramma_ breeder ("Ruki").
A. "Breitbinden" tank, with just _Pistia_ and Red algae.





and this is one of the inhabitants:





cheers Darrel


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## skeletonw00t

Nice!

here are some updated shots of my tank:

http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f= ... 59#p207459


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## skeletonw00t

*CO2 & Light Demands*

Mmm i think i'm getting Some green spot algae.

Also maybe diatoms.

I'm not sure why though :/


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## plantbrain

Nitella is very easy to grow, Chara tends to be tougher in aquariums. 

I've done well with Chara for about 8 months, dies off after, mostly due to me and my own neglect.

Stinky too.

If you like macro algae, we only have a few options with Fresh, but marine has a few hundred that are suited for warmer water.


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## skeletonw00t

*CO2 & Light Demands*

Am going to up my ferts as i hear low PO4 can cause the green spot algae!


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## spyder

skeletonw00t said:
			
		

> Am going to up my ferts as i hear low PO4 can cause the green spot algae!



Good move. If you leave it in place for 2-3 weeks it will scrape off so much easier.


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## jart

Maybe I'm missing something here? I'm trying to achieve optimal dispersion in a 20 gallon long tank. I have a MaxiJet powerhead with a modified impeller (so as to create a mist) connected to a spraybar, which is mounted along the back wall. When I point the spraybar horizontally, like you suggest, the mist seems to travel horizontally until it reaches the front glass, at which point it seems to move chiefly up (rather than down as you suggest). Perhaps I need to just tinker a bit more with placement? 

This is a great thread, by the way. Lots of folks maintain that good flow is very important for optimal plant health; how to achieve this flow was a bit of a mystery until I read ceg's posts here.



ceg4048 said:


> Space the powerheads and spraybar evenly across the back wall along the top and point all flow horizontal towards the front glass. Do not point the holes or the pumps downwards as this defeats the scheme. We are using the glass to route the water underneath the bottom leaves because that is where the plants are mostly starved.


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## ceg4048

Hello,
         Sorry but I don't really understand the configuration you describe. How can a powerhead be connected to a spraybar? Isn't the output of the filter ported to the spraybar? Powerheads are typically used to supplement the spraybar output by placing them just above or below the  sprasybar's center, or, if the spraybar is not long enough, the powerhead is placed in the gap between the end of the spraybar and the far side wall. I'd need a sketch or photo to understand the setup you're describing. Also, the spraybar and pumps should be placed very near the surface. If they are placed too low then water will be deflected both up and down, which steals energy from the downward flow.

Cheers,


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## jart

Thanks for the reply, Clive. The powerhead is a Maxijet 600. I am using it on a 20 gallon long.



.

I attached a piece of CPVC to the outlet, which as you can see is round. I then drilled some holes in it, and capped the end to make a spraybar.
Next, I clipped the blades on the Maxijet's impeller as suggested on Barrreport. Kind of a DIY needle wheel modification.

No fish in this tank, and I was blasting the CO2, but I was getting terrible results. Some green algae on the front glass... also rotting stems (is this classic for poor flow?). Bubble count ridiculously high. I did try to tinker with my flow... very hard to find the time, with two kids under the age of 3. 

I ended up taking the spraybar/ powerhead out. Instead I hooked up a Hagen Mini Elite to disperse CO2. It will be pointed at the intake of an XP-3 canister filter. I'll use the spraybar right below the surface, and play with it's directional flow, as per your suggestions above.

I have been using CO2 in planted tanks for about 10 years now. Just learning about the importance of flow.


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