# lljdma06's 8g nano 2009!  Final tank shots



## lljdma06 (1 Aug 2009)

While I really enjoy my low-maintenance scapes, there are times when I like experimenting with multiple plant species and having a scape that is more involving.  I have always been a huge fan of the Dutch style of aquascaping.  It is so colorful and the idea of keeping many species appeals to me.  I also like applying the basic principles of this style on a much, much smaller scale.  

Over three years ago, I purchased a Finnex brand 8g aquarium (no longer made in this size   ).  After about 2 years of scaping, including experimenting with some Dutch ideas, I dismantled it in December, 2008.  It's been patiently waiting for me to set it up again.  Over the past few weeks, I've been gathering the equipment needed to setup this tank.

Before I get started, I'd like to thank SuperColey1 for being a sounding board for some of my ideas.  He has introduced me to some literature recently that has been helping me understand the "why it works" aspect of how I've been doing things.  Some of these concepts are going to be implemented with this tank.    

*Tank*:  Finnex Seamless front 8g - 16.5"x11.5"x10"

*Lighting*:  Finnex 24W CF fixture, 6500k bulb, 3WPG, _but_...The CF isn't very efficient, so I've always considered this tank at best, moderately lit.   It hasn't failed me, though.   

*Filtration*:  Either 2 Aquaclear 20 or 1 Aquaclear 50.  Haven't decided yet and I have both types either new or in use.  I am leaning towards the 1 Aquaclear 50, because I want less tubage in the back.  Either way, I'll have more than the 10x turnover needed, and I can control the flow in these filters quite well.  

*Substrate*:  Kind of a mix of what I have lying around.  It will be a layered substrate.
--Bottom layer:  a mix of coarse sand, fine-grained gravel, and laterite.  Yep, good old laterite.  I had an extra box from a good sale way back.  Plus, I'll add some squeezes from my filter media from my other tanks.  This will help establish a nice mulm layer.






--Top layer: A cap of very fine sand to help more delicate species root better.  





Not too thick in the front, though, I've got to observe...

*"Happy Dutch Principle" #1* - You shouldn't see much, if any, of the substrate above the tank seam in the front.  It is unsightly.  Of course, you've still got to be able to plant.    

*Hardscape*:  Only a few piece of mopani wood to help create a small path in the tank (leading to the focal point, or acting as the focal point) and act as an anchor to some species.  Others will be covered possibility in plants.  Because...

*"Happy Dutch Principle" #2* - The hardscape should only be of one type.  Some of the possible wood choices below.  





*CO2:*  Yes

_Wait_, what do you mean _yes_?  Llj's adding CO2?  She _never_ adds CO2.    

Yes, I am adding CO2 to this tank.  It is a small tank and only moderately lit, so I'm not going pressurized.  I'll be able to get good enough levels using Yeast fermentation.  No ugly ladder this time, however, I purchased myself a nice little Rhinox 1000.





Well, actually, I purchased two of them.  They were on sale and the shipping was free.  Got them off eBay and they are making their way to Miami, as I type.  I don't know if I'll use both of them to get more even distribution or just stick with one.  They are small, but I wanted to make sure they would work with Fermentation CO2.  My goal is pretty stable CO2, not vast amounts.  I will be alternating mixes and experimenting with how many canisters I'll need.  I think two will be alright, but I have more than that.  I'll also be working with mixes to see which gets the best levels.  

So, how am I going to measure the CO2?

I have ordered a dropchecker too.     I will be making my own 4dkh.  Wait!  Llj's DIYing?  Yep.    Got myself a little digital scale too.

*Fertilisation*:  Right now, to get things started, I've ordered some TPN+ and I have extra Seachem Flourish and Seachem rootabs lying around.  Eventually, I will make my own ferts too.  I completely forgot that I made excellent marks in chemistry classes in college and the labs were my forte.  If I can distill pure Ethanol from popsicle sticks, I can certainly mix my own ferts down the road.    8)  The TPN+ is for convenience until I acquire all the equipment.    

*Goals*:  As far as livestock and plant lists are concerned, things are still in the planning stages.  I really want to create the illusion of larger size, yet maintain the Dutch style.   I'd like to follow...

*Happy Dutch Principle #3* - 





> Fish play a very important part in this style as well. The bottom, middle, and top zones of a tank should be filled with fish to make each area interesting to the viewer. All fish species should be different in shape, color, and size, but the least number of species possible should be used to fill all niches in the tank (so no blue rams in a tank with kribensis, or silver hatchetfish with marbled hatchetfish, etc). Schools must be as large as possible.


  No easy task in an 8g, but possible with the new nano species.  

*Happy Dutch Principle #4* - Create the two tank focal points using the rule of thirds.  Another hard concept on such a small tank.  I will settle with one as long as it is 2/3 the length of the tank.  I already have an idea of how this will be accomplished.  

*Happy Dutch Principle #5* - Use contrasting colors and leaf shapes.  I'll be a bit limited, since I cannot use species with especially large leaves, but I think I'll be able to come up with quite a few.  I plan on dividing the tank into 3 main sections and use between 3-5 plant species per section.  The usual rule is 3 species per foot, but I don't really have that luxury.  

*Happy Dutch Principle #6* - The back should never catch the eye.  Okay, so no A. reineckii backgrounds for me.     I plan on constructing a moss wall using a method that I think will probably fail, but it's worth trying anyways.  I like Christmas moss as it is quite bushy.  

*Some Rules I'm going to break* - The tank is seamless, therefore it is impossible to obscure the sides effectively, so I will leave them alone.  My tank is way smaller than the average Dutch.  It will _not_ be the main focal point of a room.  It's an 8g tank in a family room with a 52" HDTV.  Impossible to be the focal point when you're competing with that.     I won't be using some of the traditional "Dutch" species because their leaves are too large or broad for this tank.  I'm thinking I'll be able to grow most of what's commonly offered online.  

Two plants that are heavily considered are HC and Christmas moss.  Christmas moss for the wall and HC to make the little path.  The HC will establish the scale very well and a path of it will make the tank look very large.  I've also thought about the following species.

Fissidens frontalis - covering a few small pieces of wood with this
Anubia petite nana - for wood work and round leaf shape
Pogostemon helferi - for foreground contrast
Hydrocotyle verticillata or Marsilea minuta - for a little toadstool look.  
Small reddish crypts - for the very shaded areas of the tank, probably a small Wendtii red or bronze.  The growth will be slow in the shade.  
Rotala macrandra - a red plant
Myriophylum pinnatum - "green" fine-leaved
Didiplis diandra - contrast
Hemianthus micranthemoides - green plant
Lysamachia - gold plant
Ludwigia arcuata - another red possibility
Rotala wallichii - accent
Rotala sp. green - green plant, towards the back.
Vallis nana or Crytocoryne balansae or Eleocharis - As a very slender stalk plant.  Not going to be planted in a large group.  An accent plant.
Christmas moss - moss wall background.  Small bolbitis or java fern may be attached to the wall too.  

Star moss - still not quite convinced it's an aquatic, though it is absolutely adorable.  Possibly also Subwassertang or Pellia

I have to make sure that the bunches of stemplants are small to keep the scale correct, and I also cannot overcrowd.  I will not include all of the above species, that is too many, IMO.  I'm hoping they'll grow.  I'm going full force on the principle that CO2 is ultimately more important to determine whether a plant will do well rather than lighting.  I've grown some of these without CO2 in the same lighting.  Oooo, I also picked up this to help me trim and take care of my new tank.





I am up for the challenge and look forward to setup like this.  It is very different from what I normally do.  Thank you for reading this very long thread.  I'll update it as things come in.  The tank isn't setup yet, and this is going to be slow going.  You can already see that I've done a lot of advanced planning (now you know why I thanked SuperColey1, these ramblings would drive anyone crazy  ).  I will make detailed posts when I get to some of the technical aspects of the setup. 

Again, thanks for looking.  Comments and suggestions, if you are not too tired from reading, are always welcome.

llj  

PS:  I'm excited.


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## SKP1995 (1 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  Loooong 1st post, sorry. *

CO2??   

Sorry, just kidding!


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## Mark Evans (1 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  Loooong 1st post, sorry. *



			
				lljdma06 said:
			
		

> She never adds CO2.



she?.....  I thought you was a man. all this time I thought i was speaking with a man, and your actually a lady. Now this explains a million and one things with your posts   

BTW, there's an awful lot of rules to follow in what your doing....a little constricting don't you think? and if your breaking one or 2, why follow any at all?   

similar to what you said tome once, I'd like to see a Llj tank not a Dutch one   

ooooo, and think of all that maintenance....i really cant believe your doing this.


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## George Farmer (1 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  Loooong 1st post, sorry. *

What a wonderfully thorough post.  I recommend folk read it properly.

Nano Dutch?  Now that's pretty ground-breaking for a UKAPS member!  Do I remember you threatening to do one of these a few years ago on TFF, Lissette? 

It's nice to step out of our comfort zones - best way to learn.


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## aaronnorth (1 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  Loooong 1st post, sorry. *

some great ideas, i am waiting to see with what you come up with, another plant i would reccomend is cryptocoryne parva.


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## Gill (1 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  Loooong 1st post, sorry. *

Awaiting with Anticipation of another great scape.


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## lljdma06 (1 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  Loooong 1st post, sorry. *



			
				saintly said:
			
		

> I'd like to see a Llj tank not a Dutch one



Yeah, you are very funny and I new you would say this.    _But_...You are wrong.  You _will_ be seeing an LLj tank.  The Dutch style is simply that, a style.  It is not a set scape.  You can have many possibilities within that set style.  When I criticized you, it wasn't because you were following the ideas of the Nature aquarium, it was because you were using another's scape as a model and I wanted you to come up with your _own_ scape based on the princples of the Nature style.  I hope that is clear and my criticism was never an attack on the Nature style or you.  I happen to like the Nature style quite a bit.  The few Dutch rules that I am not following, and they really are few, are mainly because of the word "nano".  It automatically negates those rules because most Dutch scapes are usually between 55-300 gallons.  I've always thought that many of the basic principles can be affectively utilized in smaller tanks, with potentially very pleasing results.   



> ooooo, and think of all that maintenance....i really cant believe your doing this.



Why not?  I'm not a lazy person.  I don't just throw the plants in there.     If you look closely at my scapes, nothing is random, there is clear structure and designs are followed.  My other tanks are now down to less than an hour of total maintenance a week.  They are very stable, long-term scapes and I wanted to try something different.  



			
				aaronnorth said:
			
		

> some great ideas, i am waiting to see with what you come up with, another plant i would reccomend is cryptocoryne parva.



C. parva had come up as one of the shade plants.  It doesn't get particularly purplish, but it is small.  I will consider it further, as it is a good plant to stick under the shaded areas of the stems.  



			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> What a wonderfully thorough post. I recommend folk read it properly.
> 
> Nano Dutch? Now that's pretty ground-breaking for a UKAPS member! Do I remember you threatening to do one of these a few years ago on TFF, Lissette?
> 
> It's nice to step out of our comfort zones - best way to learn.



Thanks George.   I guess you can tell I've been reading up on this.  The *Happy Dutch Principles* are out of order from their original context, but I was addressing them as I covered various aspects of my tank.  

Yes, I had threatened a while back, but work was getting in the way. I have always loved color.      I also felt bad.  I've been keeping fish for 20+ years I have not had a tank in the family room of my own home since Hurricane Katrina.  The tanks have been slapped in my bedroom or in a back Florida room; tanks of much finer quality than the one that was on display.  Doll collectors are proud of their dolls and display them for all to see, so why have I been hiding my tanks?  I got mad at myself.  This is a _beautiful_ hobby, people should see the fruits of it.  Most don't even know that I do this.  This little guy is going right on an end table in the family room!  About time.    

Sorry, another long thread, but it is good to address these issues, no?  

Keep the comments and suggestions coming, though, this is a complicated undertaking and I will need some support.    

llj


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## lljdma06 (1 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  The Moss wall; planning*

Okay, not mowing the lawn today, it's too hot outside.  I'll do it Monday, which means I can play with my tank more!  

*Setting up the Moss wall:  The Beginnings*

The moss wall is typical in Dutch layouts.  It creates the natural-looking, darkish, and unobtrusive background that is highly desired.  Many use corkbark to achieve this effect and attach plants to that, or make a moss wall.  I am chosing a moss wall, as I think the cork will be too bulky for this little nano.  I read the posts in this Moss Wall Thread (from TFF) and three things stuck out as being potential problems.

*1*.  Fish get stuck and die behind the two pieces of mesh, or get stuck between the mesh and the glass because of the gap left by suction cups

*2*.  The moss takes forever to grow between the mesh.  For me, this is because the moss is overly shaded, especially if one uses dark mesh. Or...

*3*.  Lack of circulation between the mesh, causing poor growth because the moss cannot access the same amount of nutrients because of the restricted flow between the mesh.  

I'm not saying I'm going to solve this problem and my attempt could very well fail, but this is what I plan on trying.  I purchased this at my lfs.





I've used this to divide tanks before (when I was breeding kribensis and keeping bettas) and in some cases, mosses actually naturally grew on the divide.  I'll explain why.  There are two sides to the divider, a smooth side and a rough side.  The moss _always_ grew on the rough side by attaching their roots on the minute grooves in the plastic.  A pain to pull actually, when I was dismantling some of my old breeding tanks.  





Another feature that makes this idea interesting.  The stainless steel clips, which are harmless.  





Unlike suction cups, which leave gaps between the glass and the mesh, these inert clips which came with the divider hold the divider flush against the glass, with no gap.  Fish cannot get through.  Couple this with the substrate holding the divider in the bottom, you have a gap-free wall that is transparent.  Below is a picture of the tank with bare "moss wall" secured in place.





As you can see, there are numerous, finely distributed holes.  The plan is to gently "sew" the moss onto the wall by using a needle and safe thread (probably a dull brown to mimic the appearence roots, or a plant safe option) until the moss can naturally attach themselves to the rough side.  *Possible advantages to this method include.*

*1.*  Most of the moss is actually exposed to the water column rather than wedged between two mesh pieces and can take advantage of full lighting, circulation, and nutrient distribution that the tank has to offer.  This allows it to become established faster.  

*2.*  Because I'm using metal clips to attach the wall, there is no gap between it and the glass, and I significantly reduce the possibility of fish deaths or accidents.

*3*.  The wall is less bulky and much more mobile.  I can build the wall outside of the tank and then just slide the wall into place.  I also don't have to worry about 2 pieces of mesh and the wall does not interfere with tank hardware. 

*4*.  The entire aquarium back wall can be covered, barring the space below where the wall inserts into the substrate.  That is some thick coverage.  

*5*.  The equipment used is very small, and not invasive.  No giant suction cups, no bulky mesh, no stand-out plastic.  You can see below a tank shot in its eventual location.  You can barely see the clips.  Great for photography and eventually, the moss should hide the clips inside the water.  



 

*Possible disadvantages.*

*1*.  *DO NOT USE THIS WITH A HEATER!!!* The divider is plastic and can melt if put in contact with a heater.  My tank is unheated.  

*2*.  The moss might not attach effectively to the wall.  Entirely possible the rough side might not be rough enough, though since I've seen moss grow on it before,  I'm not anticipating that this wil be a problem, especially since this is going to be a nutrient-rich tank with CO2 injection and decent light for moss.  At any rate, if it is still secured by the thread, it will simply be anchored.  Maybe not a bad thing.  

I'm open to using various suggestions for thread.  Obviously something that can tolerate being underwater and something that is not harmful.  

I'm also aware that this will be an extremely tedious task, but that it could have some very fine rewards and produce a fine wall in less overall time.  Something to do with a 6-pack of good beer handy!    

Two possible considerations for moss.  Photos are from Aquaticmagic, reproduced here with much appreciation.

*Christmas moss *- It is a bushy, dark-colored moss and is featured in this moss wall below.





*Willow moss *- Less bushy, more drapey.  Might take up less space in a nano wall.  





Again, thanks for bearing with me and these long posts.  I'm not usually one to do this, but I'm exploring a lot of new ideas with this little tank and I want to explain the techniques in detail, incase they work.  Or if they don't, I can quickly analyze what I did wrong and fix it.  

Comments, criticisms, and suggestions are always welcome.  Please hold my hand and tell me it will be okay.    

llj


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## LondonDragon (1 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  The moss wall plan is up!*

I have used a mesh for the wall with great effect in the past, this on a 60cm tank:






Here out it looked when setup:











I used weeping moss for the wall 


Also created one for my Rio 125 (80cm) in the past:

















They are not the easiest of things to maintain and trap a lot of dirt in them, you also need to keep on top of the moss and trim it often, it it starts to get to thick then the moss attached to the mesh itself starts breaking up and them eventually the entire wall just falls off. 

Lots more photos in my journals


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## lljdma06 (1 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  The moss wall plan is up!*

Thanks for posting photos of completed walls, Londondragon.  That you've had such success is encouraging for me.  Other people have suggested weeping moss as well, so I think I'll be using it.  

I forgot about the eventual dissolving of the mesh.  With the tank divider serving as the foundation for the wall, I may not run into that problem, as it is much more durable.  There is also much less space for dirt accumulation.  

We'll see.  At least I _know_ the mesh is successful if my idea goes down the tube.    

I have a question for you.  How much moss do you think I'll need for a 16.0" x 9.5" wall?

*EDIT:  The above is a very stupid question on my part.  Hello!  I took Calculus in college, I can certainly calculate area.  About 144 sq inches of moss.  I doubt I'll get that much.  Thin coverage is better than none and I'm sure moss portions can be stretched. * 

Thanks.


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## Dave Spencer (1 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  Loooong 1st post, sorry. *



			
				saintly said:
			
		

> she?.....  I thought you was a man.



Llj is actually a gorgeous, bodice wearing thespian  . There is photographic evidence somewhere on the internet.  

Dave.


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## lljdma06 (1 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  Loooong 1st post, sorry. *



			
				Dave Spencer said:
			
		

> saintly said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, just for your viewing pleasure, Dave.  





Nope, definitely not a man.   

EDIT:  Sorry Dave, some people couldn't handle the previous photo of me as a bodiced strumpet, so I have replaced it with a still from a recent production of Bellini's _I Puritani_.  I am planning a solo recital of all German repertoire in the Fall. 

Now, can we get back to discussing my moss wall.


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## Simon D (2 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  The moss wall plan is up!*

I'm not convinced that's not a man! Just take a second look at those arms.......


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## lljdma06 (2 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  The moss wall plan is up!*



			
				Simon D said:
			
		

> I'm not convinced that's not a man! Just take a second look at those arms.......



I'm _not_ laughing.  Why don't you show a little more maturity?  If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all.  Now I'm self-conscious and have replaced the photo.  It's obvious you've never been made fun of as a child with regard to your appearence.  Or, if you have, it's been forgotten.  It hurt when I was five, and though I am not especially upset, I'm not pleased with your comment.  

Next time, just be a little more prudent with how you say things.  This hobby doesn't only attract males.   

llj


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## Mark Evans (2 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  The moss wall plan is up!*

well, well. what a rather gorgeous young lady we have visiting us   

now Llj, you do know I go rather shy in front of lady's, always have always will do so thankfully I have my monitor and about 4300miles of cabling and, WWW interweb stuff hiding my embarrassed face.  ....i shall now start treating you with even more respect   

wow, it just goes to show you don't know who your talking too at times. I'm really homer, from the Simpson


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## TDI-line (2 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  The moss wall plan is up!*

Excellent journal and great photos Llj, the journal must off taken hours to compile. Nice work.


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## lljdma06 (2 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  The moss wall plan is up!*



			
				saintly said:
			
		

> well, well. what a rather gorgeous young lady we have visiting us



 Thanks .



> i shall now start treating you with even more respect



I don't need special treatment.  You were treating me fine before.    



			
				TDI-line said:
			
		

> Excellent journal and great photos Llj, the journal must off taken hours to compile. Nice work.



At about 50 words a minute, no, it doesn't take hours, but I thank you for your compliment all the same.  Best class I ever took in high school was typing.  

I'm going to be washing the substrate soon and putting in the harscape today, so I'll probably have more pictures and update.

llj


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## LondonDragon (2 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  The moss wall plan is up!*



			
				lljdma06 said:
			
		

> I forgot about the eventual dissolving of the mesh.  With the tank divider serving as the foundation for the wall, I may not run into that problem, as it is much more durable.  There is also much less space for dirt accumulation.


The mesh does not disolve, I still have all the meshes for when I want to try it again, the moss starts breaking up if the layer becomes too thick and then detaches from the mesh and the wall falling over. The mesh also allow for great flow than the tank divider, but you could try it and see how it does. Good luck with it


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## lljdma06 (2 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  The moss wall plan is up!*



			
				LondonDragon said:
			
		

> lljdma06 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



  I'm sorry, maybe I'm not being clear,  and I apologize for that.  It isn't you, it's me.    

The moss will not be growing through the tank divider to reach the water column, as is the case with the mesh method of moss wall construction.  You're absolutely right, for the moss to grow that way, the mesh _is_ better.  The tank divider will be used differently.  The moss will simply be attached onto the rough side of the divider like one would attach moss to wood or rocks, except that it will be easier with the numerous holes.  The entire moss will then be facing the water column already and the theory is that the moss will then anchor and spread  along the rough surface of the divider.  If it doesn't, it will still hang suspended in the water column by the thread or fishing line anchors.  There is no need to even worry about circulation, since the moss will be completely exposed to the water column already and the smooth side of the divider will then be flush with the tank.  Think of it as similar to the corkbark used in Dutch but much thinner and with holes.  The metal clips should be able to handle the weight of the moss better than suction cups would.  So as you can see, it really isn't the same idea.  

It will be 1000 times easier to explain when the moss arrives.  Right now, it even sounds confusing to me except when I picture it.     More than likely, I will be using a fishing line of very fine test to secure the moss.  

llj


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## a1Matt (2 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  The moss wall plan is up!*

I can picture your idea llj and it sounds like a really good one to me. Will be interesting to see how it works out for you.  
I am currently cultivating a 34" by 20" wall. I sandwiched the moss between two layers of mesh and then used about 75 rubber suckers that hold the mesh together and onto the aquarium.  It took about a month before I saw any moss peaking out, I am about 6 months in now and it is starting to look really good.  So the downside is it is a very slow method.  One advantage to my technique is no sewing involved, the suckers do the work there.  Your idea seems better to me, much neater and more elegant.   

Maintenance involves patting the wall once a week to keep it clean.  Even the moss in the mesh is still alive on my wall and I think it is thanks to this.
I trim it whenever someone posts on the forum that they want some taiwan moss or when it starts to grow over my crypts   This stops it getting too thick, which as LD pointed out is a common cause of mosses dying off.

I tried half a dozen different mosses on little test moss walls and my favourite was by far taiwan moss.  Nice frond shapes and it hangs down in neat layers so does not get unruly as it gets dense.  I have not tried with Xmas moss, but I imagine that would have the same effect.  Peacock moss is another one that I have not tried in a wall but judging by its growth pattern I think it would be a good candidate for a moss wall.

Of the other ones I did try in a moss wall weeping was best for speed of growth but looked very messy to me. 

Good luck with your wall


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## lljdma06 (3 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  The moss wall plan is up!*

Hi a1matt!  Thanks for the reply.  

It's good to know that weeping moss grows fast.  I will watch for any messiness.


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## JohnC (3 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  The moss wall plan is up!*



			
				lljdma06 said:
			
		

> Hi a1matt!  Thanks for the reply.
> 
> It's good to know that weeping moss grows fast.  I will watch for any messiness.



I love my weeping moss in my corner tank, it does bulk up pretty fast once it gets going and I have to retie huge chunks of it when it is in the outflow and starts drifting. but i don't really trim it like i did my old java moss.

Actually if you need some drop me a PM. i've got TONS.

Best Regards,
John


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## lljdma06 (4 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  The moss wall plan is up!*



			
				hijac said:
			
		

> Actually if you need some drop me a PM. i've got TONS.
> 
> Best Regards,
> John



Thank you for your offer.  I already purchased some and I have to sort out the shipping and the total price with the seller.  
 
llj


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## Themuleous (4 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  The moss wall plan is up!*

Loving the moss wall at the back, should look cool once up and running.  I always think a plant 'wall' at the back gives a difference sense of things to a tank.

Sam

PS - I knew you'd come around to our way of thinking eventually.  You've got the CO2, now we just need to work on the EI


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## lljdma06 (4 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  The moss wall plan is up!*



			
				Themuleous said:
			
		

> Loving the moss wall at the back, should look cool once up and running.  I always think a plant 'wall' at the back gives a difference sense of things to a tank.
> 
> Sam
> 
> PS - I knew you'd come around to our way of thinking eventually.  You've got the CO2, now we just need to work on the EI



Eh, I don't think I've got enough light to worry much about EI.  Probably TPN+ is going to be enough for me.  Especially with how I stock tanks.    There's going to be like 30 fish in an 8g tank.  I'm excited, I'm finding some really cool new species.  

llj


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## lljdma06 (6 Aug 2009)

*lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  More musings.*

*More Moss Musings*

I was wavering whether or not to use thread for my moss wall venture.  I decided against it.  Incase the moss doesn't anchor to the wall, I want it to remain attached regardless.  Thread degrades over time.  So, I opted for a very fine test fishing line.  

This is what I ended up with after about 20 minutes in the sports section of Kmart.  










It is particularly well-suited for making knots and twisting, which is precisely what I want it to do.  It is also strong and won't degrade.  It is transparent, so it will be hard to see, yet it has a green tinge, so it will blend with the moss once it grows in.  

Another advantage is that it give me a lot to work with for very little and I was able to splurge and purchase nice quality line.   There were much cheaper lines available, but they came with warnings of lead content.  Not that that is horrible, we use lead weights to anchor plants all the time, but it is never permanent and the moss wall will be up for much longer.  I didn't want that risk.  

Now, I just have to wait for the moss.     

*Hiding everything*

The CO2 tubes, the light cord, and the HOB cords can create an unsightly mess.  I wanted to hide as much of the hardware as possible this time.  I found this neat little box at Marshall's (I know not your typical fish place).





It is flimsy enough that I can make holes for the tubing and chords and ventilated so that I can hide the power strip.  It also fits well underneath the end table, effectively hiding all my hardware.  I also purchased these suction cups.  





These will secure the CO2 tubing close to the wall of the aquarium.  I'm thinking about everything with this tank.  

Now, I just have to wait for them to arrive.    

*Hardscape*

After much sawing and hacking, I've narrowed down my hardscape choices.  The irony is that I ended up not using the wood I spent the better part of an afternoon hacking away at.    It was just too big.  I have several smaller pieces, which I may still hack up.





Different angle for one piece




With the knots and holes, I think they'll be great for attaching things to.  The large piece will probably be the focal point wood and will play off the HC/HM street.  It will probably end up being an anubia petite nana street which will end on the high point of the wood 2/3 into the tank, forming a focal point cluster with petite nana, a red plant, and possibly a taller grass specimen plant.  Hard to picture.  I can see it, but it is hard to explain.  

The two smaller pieces, which may be further cut up into smaller pieces will possibly have pelia attached to them and be placed towards the front of the tank to form little mounds.  Which will contrast very well, I think, with P. helferi.  I don't know, though, Pelia is so darned messy.  Christmas moss might work too.  The wood will have _something_ on it and that something will contrast well with P. helferi.  The little "woodland" corner of the Dutch will be rounded out, I think, with some toadstool-like Hydrocotyle verticillata.  It will be an attractive little corner that will play off the focal point and lead the eye to it.  H. verticillata has some street potential as well, and it may be explored for this purpose.  I just have to make sure I can purchase it here.  Another possibility, though not as cute, Marsilea hirsuta or minima.  Those, I can easily find in the US, but they will not make as pretty a picture.  

*Waiting, waiting, I've been waiting...   *

I'm playing the waiting game on this tank.  I'm waiting on the following, which is currently being shipped.

TPN+
Two Rhinox 1000 diffusers
Clear CO2 tubing
Suction cups
Check valves
Dropchecker
Jewelry scale
Willow Moss
Christmas Moss

Once these items arrive, I can get started and order the rest of the plants, as that process will take very little time.  The fish, though extremely important to this setup, will not be added until the tank has been planted and the tank has settled somewhat into a routine.   I will be playing with some fragile species and I will not compromise their health.  Which leads me too...

*Which Fishies?*

Remember this?

*Happy Dutch Principle #3* - 





> Fish play a very important part in this style as well. The bottom, middle, and top zones of a tank should be filled with fish to make each area interesting to the viewer. All fish species should be different in shape, color, and size, but the least number of species possible should be used to fill all niches in the tank (so no blue rams in a tank with kribensis, or silver hatchetfish with marbled hatchetfish, etc). Schools must be as large as possible.



Well, I think I've narrowed it down somewhat.  All images were taken from a yahoo search and are only for illustration, not reproduction.  

Upper strata:  Heterandria formosa; a cute little livebearer 





Middle strata:  Boraras brigittae; one of my favorite microrasboras and the "spot of color" in this tank.  





Lower strata:  Erethistes jerdoni (formaly Hara jerdoni)





This is the trickiest fish.  It doesn't like a lot of nitrate supposedly, so it is a matter of doing a dance between the nitrate needs of the plants and this fish's needs.  The challenge of the group.  Another option is Corydoras habrosus, but I thought E. jerdoni was too cool.  All three can be acquired from one trusted source, so that makes me happy.    If I have surplus, they can easily find a home in my other peaceful tanks.  

All three would do well in densly planted tanks with either a covered substrate or a sand substrate with wood as the decoration and lots of plants to hide in.  Kind of what an old-fashioned Dutch scape looks like.  Their range of water conditions also conform well to a planted aquarium with CO2 injection.  Even the livebearer, which was neat.  All of them are also extremely small fish and relatively peaceful, which is a huge plus.  This isn't a final list, though, a great top three, but if something comes up and they won't do well, they won't go in.  

As always, thanks for looking, and comments are always welcome.     

llj


----------



## mattyc (6 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  Moss musings and Fish choices*

Make this tank faster i cant wait to see it  , i like your fish choices they should look realy nice Boraras brigittae this one more than the others with the green background of the plants!!

Matt


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## Gill (7 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  Moss musings and Fish choices*

Excellent Fish Choice HF are such cute lickle fish.


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## lljdma06 (8 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  Moss musings and Fish choices*

*Tomorrow will be time to Play * 

Some packages came for me in the mail today.  I received the following...

From Aquatic Magic
- 1 chameleon drop checker 
- 2 Rhinox 1000 Pollen diffusers
- 3 gang valves
- 3 sets of CO2 tubing
- Suction cups

From AquaEssentials
- 500ml of TPN+

From eBay
- Digital pocket jewelry scale (for measureing dry ferts and bicarbonate for 4dkh solution)

Everything arrived much faster than expected and in good shape.  I am very satisfied.  I only have to wait on the moss which just shipped out yesterday, and I have to order some stemplants for the scape.  

*Found something in my Yard *

It looks like my own front yard is supplying me with a plant for my scape.  









Some Hydrocotyle verticillata.  I have the Toadstools for my tank!     I gushed about it in the Plants section, but I thought I'd post it here too.  I harvested what I could and it is in a small fountain I have in my front garden.  I really thought I was going to have to mailorder that.

I'm working on a plant list right now for the stems and other little plants.  I'll post the list tomorrow.

llj


----------



## Mortis (8 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  Moss musings and Fish choices*

I had an idea for the moss wall. Since it has so many holes in it already, instead of tying he moss like you would to rocks as you mentioned earlier you could just poke a few strands into it. This way you would have most of the strand hanging on the front which would grow downwards and cover the plastic.


----------



## lljdma06 (8 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  Equip. arrived & Plants ordered!*



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> I had an idea for the moss wall. Since it has so many holes in it already, instead of tying he moss like you would to rocks as you mentioned earlier you could just poke a few strands into it. This way you would have most of the strand hanging on the front which would grow downwards and cover the plastic.



Thank you for the thought.  Actually, all of the moss will be hanging from the front, as I will be lying the moss on the rough side while I weave fishing line through the many holes.  It's kind of like cross-stitching but not.  

It will all be clear when the moss arrives.  

PS:  I ordered the plants.  Nothing too fancy.  Some harder species, but also some easier ones just in case the hards ones say "no way I'm growing in that!".  They didn't have Petite nana at Aquabotonic, so I ordered some Marsilea minuta and will be digging through my anubia piles from other tanks to find smaller plants.  I have two petite nana already.  Complete plant list below.  Plants in bold are probably going in the tank.  I ordered more than I needed incase I wanted to fill out the other tanks too.  Most species will do alright in my 10g and 20g.  

Vallisneria nana - easy, primarily for my 20g, but I may use 1-2 plants for a very strong accent
*Hemianthus callitrichoides* - not too bad
*Hemianthus Micranthemoides* - easy
African Bolbitis fern - easy - for my 20g, hey I get a discount
*Myriophyllum tuberculatum* - harder
*Didiplis diandra* - with CO2 and ferts, probably not too bad
*Rotala nanjenshan* - Never tried, sounded great on paper.
Bacopa caroliniana - Easy as pie, probably for my 20g again, but I may use a few stems
*Rotala indica* - Easy as pie
*Red Nesaea *- Tough.  Couldn't find R. macrandra and this looked kind of similar, so I figured, get one, what the hey? I read through a bunch of requirements.  There isn't really anything that I'm not providing for this plant.
*Marselia minuta* - Easy
*Subwassertang* - Messy, but easy
*Dwarf Hairgrass* - Never tried
*Weeping Moss*
*Hydrocotyle verticillata*
Anubia petite nana - it depends, the Marsilea may take over.  I only ordered one portion though.  
Maybe some small crypts from my 20g.  I couldn't find the right kind.  

I couldn't find some of what I wanted, no big deal. If I find something I like better later, I'll swap out one for the other and offer clippings.  I wanted R. macrandra, but Aquabotonic didn't have it and while Aquariumplants.com did, that website didn't have other things that I did want, so I spent quite a bit of time looking for substitute plants.  I did PM someone at APC for some fissidens and more marsilea.  Hopefully I'll get that.  I'm a bit eBayed out actually.  I'm really tired, but I ate super late tonight and I can't sleep when I'm full.


----------



## aaronnorth (8 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  Moss musings and Fish choices*

are making your own TPN+?


----------



## AdAndrews (8 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  Moss musings and Fish choices*

Brilliant write up llj, cant wait to see it planted- a bit like my own nano
 
Adam


----------



## TBRO (8 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  Moss musings and Fish choices*

Wow - that is some seriously extensive planning. Wish I had that kind of patience. Love your outdoor raised plants ! I have amazon frogbit in our bird-bath. I have the same rasboras there really cute but kind of shy, I hear their more confident in smaller tanks. Looking forward to seeing the finished scape - Tom


----------



## lljdma06 (8 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  Moss musings and Fish choices*



			
				aaronnorth said:
			
		

> are making your own TPN+?



Eventually, since I have the jewelry scale, yes.  Right now, with school on the way, I wanted to make sure I had enough TPN+ to see me through the first few months of the tank incase I was too busy to make my own.  I also get to keep the flashy bottle.



			
				TBRO said:
			
		

> Wow - that is some seriously extensive planning. Wish I had that kind of patience. Love your outdoor raised plants ! I have amazon frogbit in our bird-bath. I have the same rasboras there really cute but kind of shy, I hear their more confident in smaller tanks. Looking forward to seeing the finished scape - Tom



Really, the outdoor plants only work because the climate in Miami, FL is essentially sub-tropical year round.  It is through no skill on my part.  We have a wet season and a dry season, but it rarely gets below freezing, and when it does, it is only for like a day.  It gives me a place to put my cuttings though, while I wait for people to take them off my hands.  



			
				AdAndrews said:
			
		

> Brilliant write up llj, cant wait to see it planted- a bit like my own nano
> 
> Adam



Thank you, Adam.  I am this anal normally, so the write up is only an extension of this.    

I also believe in really knowing the habits of what you keep.  The problem is that I have recently been reading a lot about how CO2 is a more important factor with regard to the more difficult plants than light.  Much of the older literature has not caught up with this concept, so researching the plants have been difficult as they tend to list light requirements first and are then vague about CO2, and the light requirements are often sky-high for the more challenging plants.  Especially with regard to the Nesea and Myriophylum.  SuperColey1's grown R. Macrandra in less that 1WPG, but he has CO2 injection, which lends credence to the concept I've been reading about.  I am conducting a bit of an experiment with the Nesea and the Myrio as I don't think this nano has very much light, despite the 3WPG number.  But I will be providing good CO2 and good ferts.  If they do well, then this also lends support to that concept.  For me, those are the toughest, everything else on that list is going to be much easier, as I have grown most of the species without the benefit of CO2 injection or ferts in moderate light levels.  If I fail, there is always Alternantera reineckii!   

llj


----------



## AdAndrews (8 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  Moss musings and Fish choices*



			
				lljdma06 said:
			
		

> Thank you, Adam.  I am this anal normally, so the write up is only an extension of this.
> 
> I also believe in really knowing the habits of what you keep.  The problem is that I have recently been reading a lot about how CO2 is a more important factor with regard to the more difficult plants than light.  Much of the older literature has not caught up with this concept, so researching the plants have been difficult as they tend to list light requirements first and are then vague about CO2, and the light requirements are often sky-high for the more challenging plants.  Especially with regard to the Nesea and Myriophylum.  SuperColey1's grown R. Macrandra in less that 1WPG, but he has CO2 injection, which lends credence to the concept I've been reading about.  I am conducting a bit of an experiment with the Nesea and the Myrio as I don't think this nano has very much light, despite the 3WPG number.  But I will be providing good CO2 and good ferts.  If they do well, then this also lends support to that concept.  For me, those are the toughest, everything else on that list is going to be much easier, as I have grown most of the species without the benefit of CO2 injection or ferts in moderate light levels.  If I fail, there is always Alternantera reineckii!
> 
> llj



lol, try try and try again i say!
good luck
Adam


----------



## John Starkey (8 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  Plants ordered, Equip arrived!*

Hi ilj,
brilliant journal as usual,really looking forward to the planting,
regards john.


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## lljdma06 (9 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  A Surprise!  It's setup!*



			
				john starkey said:
			
		

> Hi ilj,
> brilliant journal as usual,really looking forward to the planting,
> regards john.



Well, I have a little something for you then at the end of this very long post.   But first...

*The New Equipment*

As I said before, the new equipment arrived, yesterday, and today I had the opportunity to take it all out of their boxes and inspect them.  Here are a few photos.  

From Aquaticmagic




The Rhinox 1000 Pollen diffuser




The Chameleon drop checker




The TPN+ from AquaEssentials and the Digital jewelry scale from eBay




Everything looks to be in nice shape (no cracks, etc.)

*A little change *

I remembered this piece of old black wood from my 10g.  It had nothing attached to it over there, so I easily removed it and am using it for this scape.  I like the look of the black wood, so this replaces the largest of the previous piece.  





I'm still keeping the little pieces.

*John Starkey's little Surprise:  Initial Plantings   *

I decided with most of the equipment already here and some plants available to me, I decided to begin setup.  This also allows me to determine how the CO2 will work and I can fiddle with things and use the drop checker to measure CO2 levels throughout the tank _before_ I begin the main planting.  A very important thing to do, in my humble opinion.  

Here is the tank with just squeezed mulm from my filter media.  It wasn't much.





After that, I added a mixture of laterite, coarse sand, and small-grain gravel.  This layer is not especially thick, about 1/2-2/3 inch deep.   You can see my new substrate spreader.  I really like the new aquascaping tools, they were very useful.





I managed to grab quite a bit of petite nana from my outdoor tub.  I found one with larger leaves and oriented it towards the back, while the smaller anubias are more towards the front.  I trimmed the leaves, the roots, and separated individual rhizomes.  I then attached them to the old black wood with the new fishing line.  It took me a little bit to get the hang of it, but it ended up being very good to work with and the anubias are very secure.   I finished the substrate with a fine white sand cap.





And a closeup of the anubias. You can _just_ see the fishing line, but this is a macro shot. If you just glance at the tank, you can't see the line.  Very nice.





Here are some photos of the tank after this initial planting.  Only the anubia wood is in the "final" position, the other pieces are there for an idea and to make sure it is submerged.  They still need to be clean a little more and covered with what they need to be covered with (moss or subwassertag).  The hydrocotyle will probably be replanted once the wood has been repositioned and the other plants are placed.  If I have extra weeping moss, I'll make sure I use it.  I like the basic idea and can kind of picture the final result.  Might need some mild tweaking, but I can't do anything until everything comes in.





Hydrocotyle shots.  This plant is adorable.  I selected the smallest, straightest stems and separated them so they could be individually planted with the rest going into my outdoor tub.  It's like little umbrellas.  Moss will probably be the best constrast plant but I'll see how the subwassertang looks too.  









Another tank shot. Again, the scaping isn't done yet. Things may still be moved around quite a bit.  The great thing is that the wood is at the surface, so it's just a matter of repositioning.  It also looks like I'll be getting some Fissidens fontalis from a member at APC.  I have no idea what I'll do with that, but depending on how much I get, it can be fantastic for draping on the black wood.  





I am so pleased that this will potentially be done by the end of next week.  This took so much planning and I think I've coordinated it well.  

Finally, I hooked up the Rhinox to test the CO2 diffuser.  It's working, big sigh of relief.  Lots of little teeny, tiny bubbles and the way I've positioned the current, I can see bubbles flowing to where I plan on putting the HC and the Nesea.  I don't have pictures yet of that.  I'll install the drop checker and start measureing CO2 tomorrow.  The photo period right now is at 4 hours.  I don't have it densly planted yet, and it's only two plants.  Once it's planted, I'll up it to six for the first few weeks.  

As always, thank you so much for looking at this thread and your comments and suggestions are greatly appreciated.  

llj


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## AdAndrews (9 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  Initial Planting!  Photo heavy!*

Looks crackin so far llj, good luck!


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## aaronnorth (9 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  Initial Planting!  Photo heavy!*

a word of warning, those non return valves pull apart & leak very easily, i had to throw mine, and replace it with a glass NRV


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## John Starkey (9 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  Initial Planting!  Photo heavy!*

Woop woop way to go ilj,love it so far,
regards john


----------



## lljdma06 (10 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  Initial Planting!  Photo heavy!*

Just added the drop checker.  I'll admit, it was a bit tricky getting the water into the ball, but I managed.  I also made my own 4dkh.  I cannot vouch for its incredible accuracy though.  I did have to do some conversions.  I'm not going to run around measuring 5000ml of water and measure 6 grams of Sodium bicarbonate.  Too much to carry around and I actually did not have that much distilled water lying around (I only had a gallon), so I just used proportions so I could get away with a 40dkh that was about 1000ml.  Much easier, IMO to work with.  Then I just combined a set amount of that it until I had the appropriate ratio for a 4dkh solution.  Told you I did well in chemistry.  I'll still tweak with it though and get better equipment, as what I did was very ghetto.  I only had a 500ml measurer, so I'll have to buy one for 50 and probably one for 100ml.  I'm not going to buy the graduated cyllinders.  That's a little much.    

Coincidently, it's about 1/4 tsp of sodium bicarbonate for 1000ml of water.  Again, don't know _how_ accurate that is, I was just observing the number of level 1/8 tsp I needed to get 1.2grams according to the scale.  It ended up being two, 1/8 tsp.

Now, I just have to wait for the color to change to green.  Better to fiddle and play with this now, IMO, than to wait for the plants to arrive.  I positioned the drop checker close to where I plan on planting the HC.  Once I see a color change, I'll move it around the tank and get readings for about where I plan to plant the other plants.  This is a little tank and I have two canisters right now.  I might have to shut off the CO2 if I see it going to high, or use less, but it doesn't really matter as there are no fish.  It would be nice to observe the different colors now, so I know them.  There are also adjustments to be made once I get the full plant load.  Right now, anubias and hydrocotyle have a monopoly on CO2 with only a 4 hour photo period.  The CO2 levels are going to be higher now.  

Perfect time to tweak things, I think.

llj


----------



## lljdma06 (11 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  The moss came!*

Before I begin, let me show a photo of the diffuser in action, though this photo was taken when the CO2 first entered, so there aren't as many bubbles.  Now, I'm pretty impressed.  There are tiny bubbles _everywhere_ and they are moving in a sort of infinity sign-shaped current throughout the tank.  I think I've got it in a very good location, and I don't want to move it.  






The two canisters are now directly hooked onto the tank and the tubes are connected to the diffuser via a T-connector.  The air was just moving too slow, when I tried to have long tubing and hide everything in a box.  I'm thinking about replacing it with the manifold I have, as now I think the tubing is short enough to make this efficient.  There is so much CO2, that I am considering conserving it by turning it off at night, but I'll see.  We're still experimenting here, but the results so far, are very good.  

It took about 2 hours for the drop checker to turn yellow near the place where I'll plant the HC.  Too much maybe for now.  It is now situated in the opposite end of the tank from the diffuser, right above the Hydrocotyle and is now a lime green.  I think I need another drop of the reagent.  I added three.  One more might be best.









*Planning is not the same as Execution...  *

Much to my surprise today after I installed the drop checker, I received a surprise from the post.  My moss came!    

I'll let you know now, I had ordered the moss from Aquaticmagic.  The reviews for them have been mixed with regard to live plants, but it seemed a good deal, so I would give it a try.  My package went out Thursday, the 6th and only took 4 days.  Not too bad.  Needless to say, I had a ton of moss and still do.  21 portions of weeping moss, and 1 portion of Christmas that I bid on by mistake.  









I was expecting the worst, but this was the quality of a typical bag of Weeping moss.





The Christmas moss was a little worse, but still very much alive and well.  

I'll tell you, putting up the wall took the better part of the afternoon and the early evening.     It was tedious work, but I was quite pleased with how my idea turned out.  It was difficult finding a needle with a small enough eye to pull line through the holes, yet with a large enough eye to actually fit the thread.  I went through about 3 needles and just plain threading with my fingers before I finally found a needle that worked well.  I fitted a ceramic mister with tank water and was spritzing the moss to keep it fresh as I went along.  When I needed a break, I submerged the wall into the tank.  Some progress shots.









The moss is dense and very vigorous looking.  I didn't need very much to get good coverage, and you can see from above, that there are places where you can definitely see through the moss.  The fishing line performed very well.  I was pleased with the rinal result.

Before.




After.




Here's a photo of the wall from the back of the tank.  You can see the gaps.  I purposely made it a little thin, especially in the bottom.  




I love this shot with the anubias, the wall already looks dense, and I didn't even use half the moss.  That's insane.  Very nice quality, I'm quite impressed with Aquaticmagic right now.




Finally, a shot of the Christmas moss.  I had to put it somewhere, so I covered a little piece of wood with it.  and put it with the Hydrocotyle.  To me, personally, it looks like it's been grown emersed, so I imagine there will be a conversion time.




I have a breeder net full of weeping moss and a little christmas moss in my 20g.  I don't know what to do with it right now.  Because it is under light, I'm not too worried and can keep it safe while I finish planting the 8g.  Saturday, I will see what tanks can use some moss.  What I don't use, I'll trade out among friends.  

Thanks for looking and bearing with me in this really long thread.  These posts have been murder and I apologize.  I'm really trying to be as succinct as possible and still explain things.  

As always comments and suggestions are welcome.  

llj


----------



## George Farmer (11 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  The moss came, made the wall *

What a super journal!!  Looks like it's going to be a brilliant layout.  I'm not a fan of moss walls usually but think it will suit a Dutch 'scape.

I love the way you update the thread title regularly too.

The shot of the CO2 diffuser is excellent!

Keep up the good work, llj.


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## Tony Swinney (11 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  The moss came, made the wall *

Yep, this is a great read llj   

I think the moss wall is going to look terrific - well planned   

Tony


----------



## lljdma06 (11 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  The moss came, made the wall *



			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> What a super journal!!  Looks like it's going to be a brilliant layout.  I'm not a fan of moss walls usually but think it will suit a Dutch 'scape.
> 
> I love the way you update the thread title regularly too.
> 
> ...



Thanks George.  That means a lot coming from you.  It was either a moss wall or cork bark for a traditional Dutch scape.  I think the moss was a smarter choice.  It increases my plant mass and doesn't take up as much space as cork bark.  

I've been recently working with a tripod.  



			
				Tonser said:
			
		

> Yep, this is a great read llj
> 
> I think the moss wall is going to look terrific - well planned
> 
> Tony



I appreciate that, Tony.  It was hard to visualize and I didn't know if it would work.  I'm glad it is working for now.  I really want some shrimps for this tank if I can.  

I've got a small batch of Fissidens and marsilea minuta coming in the mail soon, but it looks like my Aquabotonic order won't come in until next week maybe, giving me more time to figure things out in this tank.  I could get a suprise, though, it's happened before.   

llj


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## TDI-line (11 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  The moss came, made the wall *

Cracking journal Llj.


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## lljdma06 (12 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  The moss came, made the wall *



			
				TDI-line said:
			
		

> Cracking journal Llj.



Thanks!  I just wanted to make sure I was thorough this time.  Usually, I setup everything and then post pictures of the finished product and then I promptly forget what I had done.      My low-light scapes tended to cater more to the fish species I've kept and/or am currently keeping and I kind of just let the plants do their own thing within certain rough boundaries.   Short plant; front, tall plant; back, that sort of thing.  Those tanks are also easier to maintain and I can satisfy my desire to keep multiple species of fish.  This tank is more "serious" as I am actually following some set rules.  I'd like to push the envelope for the Dutch style a bit.  With proper plant selection, it needn't be a style limited to larger tanks.  I can see myself still going even smaller down the road.  

Let me qualify.  As "serious" as I can get and still treat this as a hobby.     I'm sorry, but the moment I'm not thoroughly enjoying what I do with these tanks, I'm done.  Haven't reached that point yet, though I have had to down-size in the past.  I think that positive attitude maybe speaks for my longevity.  My job is quite stressful, this hobby is supposed to relax me.


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## Themuleous (12 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  The moss came, made the wall *

Like the photos  moss wall looks cool too 

Sam


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## skinz180189 (12 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  The moss came, made the wall *

Wow that moss wall looks great. Well done lij.


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## lljdma06 (16 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  August 16th, better photos*

Hi, 

To finish the layout, I ordered some plants and they were supposed to be shipped using next day supersaver air.   The plants were shipped on the 11th, and were supposed to arrive no later than the evening of the 12th.  They arrived the evening of the 13th.    

Needless to say, they suffered being in an UPS truck without airconditioning.  I won't be using the vendor again and I'm very disappointed since it is the second major US plant vendor that I've had to stop using because they deal with UPS.  I get far superior plants using USPS from fellow hobbiests and overseas, which is ironic, because they are in the post for longer.  So for future planting needs, I'll be looking into swapping and fellow hobbiests.    

With what I had, I did an initial planting.  It _isn't_ the final layout.  I've got to get plants healed up first.  The red plants are all in the wrong places, but I had to plant the Nesea where it would be close to the CO2 and far apart from the other plants so it would get ample light and good current circulation.  I don't much like the leaf shape either, a bit too big for the nano, but I'm not sure it's because it was grown emersed or what.  I'll play "wait and see".  I'm going to further thin out the stems today, because I'm hooking up my 10g to have CO2 temporarily while I give the plants time to heal.  It looks hysterical because it is super full of stems, extra HC, extra Marsilea.  Even my 20g is in on the grow-out act, housing a breeder net with some extra fissidens and subwassertag.  Once they grow and heal a bit, I'll replant using a final layout.  Some of the ideas are there, though, especiall with regard to the foreground.  I think I created some sense of depth, which is extremely hard in a tank this size.  

One pot of hairgrass was complete mush, black roots and everything.  The second pot had some living grass, so I was able to use it in the layout like I wanted.  

I have to fix the HC layout and the marsilea, I want a clearer contrast between the two, and two streets are entirely possible.  The HC looked great and it was pearling last night.  I didn't plant individually, I don't need the low lawncover, rather a more rolling hill look.  The hydrocotyle has adjusted very well to being submerged and is growing robustly.  

Some picture, nothing special, the color wasn't great in my camera today.  You can see the textures better live.  

























Good dropchecker color, I think.





I think I've found the right combination of CO2 diffusion and tank circulation with this tank.  I was smart to use the Aquaclear 50 rather than a smaller grade filter.  I had to remove a lot of stem bottoms, so some filling in needs to be done.  I tweaked a little since these pictures and like the result better, so I'll take some photos and post them tomorrow or Monday.

Thanks for looking, and as always, comments and suggestions are welcome.    

llj  

llj


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## Gill (16 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  August 14th Planting, not final*

THat is Looking Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet


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## lljdma06 (16 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  August 16th, better photos.*

Thanks, Gill.  I like these pictures better.  The camera was working better, I think.

























For me, what's so cool about the Dutch scape is that there are so many little details.  Different photography angles really reveal  different scenes within the tank.  For some, it may seem like too much or too gaudy, but I enjoy the color play and the different leaf shapes.  It is almost like a painting.  The Dutch scapes are heavily textured and there is always something new that may catch your attention.  Today, I was obssessed with how the grasses and the foreground "streets" played off each other.  It was very cute to look at.  Tomorrow, I might find myself looking at the anubias and the fissidens.  It depends on the day.  I'll tell you, I probably will not be bored with this little tank.  

I see improvement in most of the plants.  Amazing what a few nights of normal temperatures will do.  One stem of the Nesea died, but I see new growth on the rest of the stems, which is very encouraging.  The myrio is also doing well and the Rotala nanjenshan.  

Thanks for looking.

llj


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## mattyc (17 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  August 14th Planting, not final*

This tank looks amazing i love the red plants cant wait to see it when it has grown in!! 

good work   

Matt


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## lljdma06 (20 Aug 2009)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  8/20 photo update*



			
				mattyc said:
			
		

> This tank looks amazing i love the red plants cant wait to see it when it has grown in!!
> 
> good work
> 
> Matt



Thank you.  New pictures.  





























Thanks for looking.


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## lljdma06 (16 Aug 2010)

*Re: lljdma06's New Nano Dutch!  Photo update, August 20th*

Been a million years.  SuperColey1 and I were talking and I thought I'd post the final scape pictures.  I went on a trip to Italy in May (Studied voice) and actually had dismantled the tank in March.  

Didn't exactly come out the way I expected... but I liked it.   A fun little tank.

Full tank shot




Little anchor cats




The Mature Moss wall.


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## LondonDragon (16 Aug 2010)

Looks pretty good to me, the moss wall looks very healthy


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## GreenNeedle (16 Aug 2010)

Aargh.  I'm jealous of both you and london.  Every time I try to do a moss wall it goes **** up and is a moss coping stones. lol (The bottom half disappears when the low level plants swarm it out.)

The light in this tank is pretty similar in apeearance to mine.  Cris p and clean sort of thing.  I like it.  Suits the planting and the substrate.

I like the plants in the front right.  A bit like differing height mushrooms   Can you tell I have no idea when it comes to ID'ing stems   (Not a problem for one who doesn't use them. lol)

AC


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## lljdma06 (18 Aug 2010)

SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> Aargh.  I'm jealous of both you and london.  Every time I try to do a moss wall it goes **** up and is a moss coping stones. lol (The bottom half disappears when the low level plants swarm it out.)
> 
> The light in this tank is pretty similar in apeearance to mine.  Cris p and clean sort of thing.  I like it.  Suits the planting and the substrate.
> 
> ...



Hydrocotyle verticillata (I think).  Grows in my back yard and can be adapted for aquatic use.  It is a rhizome-type stemplant, kind of like marsilea in its growth habits.

The lighting is that crappy PC lighting you and I have discussed.  It has a nice color temp, though, nice on the eyes.  It worked for this setup, and I'm not upgrading it any time soon, though, some time down the road, I see myself going LED.  I like the look of it.   

Eh, the bottom half of the moss wall did not fare so well towards the end.  Life got in the way and I couldn't  prune the moss wall.  Top half crowded out the bottom half.  When I was pruning, though, that didn't happen.  Nice method for moss wall construction, I will use it again, as it was very easy, and I could see moss from the get go.  No waiting  months for the moss to peak out of mesh.  

llj

llj


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