# In the market for new substrate in an existing tank



## Aeropars (23 Oct 2015)

Hi Guys,

I'm currently running a 180L (100cm) tank and I've got Tesco lightweight cat litter in there at the moment. It's really annoying stuff because while it looks good and doesn't disintegrate after time, it is just too light to reliably hold plants down. Nearly every morning I get up to a tank of floating plants which have been bashed about all night and look worse for ware. I imagine molar clay and Akadama would also have this problem.

So I'm looking for something new. I'm aware of the different types and to some extent the pitfalls and benefits of some of the products out there. My problem is the cost of some of these substrates as to get anything near a decent slope on a 100cm tank would cost a decent wedge of cash. I don't mind splashing out on such a thing if its worth it. I will continue to dose EI and inject CO2.

So what should I get? Would you go inert? Base layer? My only "must have" is that it is durable and will hold my plants in place.

Look forward to your suggestions.


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## Manuel Arias (23 Oct 2015)

You can always to cover your substrate with a gravel that holds the grip better, i.e. thinner grains. That would be definitively cheaper than changing the whole substrate for something with a better brittleness.


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## Aeropars (23 Oct 2015)

Hi Manuel,

I think the problem with that is that it will all mix in to one another as time goes by. With that in mind I'd prefer to go for a single substrate throughout.

Lee


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## Manuel Arias (23 Oct 2015)

True enough.

Analyzing the problem, cat litter is very porous but also very low density, so buoyancy is a problem and then the plants loose the grip easily. In planted tanks I tend not to disturb the soil at all, so that is why I recommended you to use a finer gravel for the top, so the plants have better grip, plus you add some weight to the substrate, making harder any disturbance. However, if you want to have a single type of substrate, i.e. not combining different things, then definitively you have to go for something different. 
Your question about inert substrates or not depends a lot of the plants you have or want to have, and of course how you fert your tank. As Jordi as mentioned many times, enriched substrate can lead to a reduced need of using fertilizers in the water, as the root intake compensate that. I could not tell about the opposite (inter gravel and trusting more in the ferts within the water column) but it might work well also with the right circulation of water through the gravel.

There are specific substrates for planted tanks that are not really expensive. Of course, you will need a good amount of substrate with that tank size, so it depends a lot in the budget you can spend.

Alternatively, you can go to a dirt susbstrate, great for plants and cheaper, but with more work.

Troi did the following tutorial that I think can help you:

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/the-soil-substrate-or-dirted-planted-tank-a-how-to-guide.18943/

Hope this help.


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## Aeropars (23 Oct 2015)

That's an interesting read. I don't mind putting some effort in when setting up, its the weekly maintenance that I'm trying to keep to a lower end. 

When I first started this hobby I used Seachem Onyx Sand with pretty good success. I then put down some Tropica substrate underneath and had decent success with that too however that was some years ago. That eventually found its way up to the top which is why I'm looking at something different. Interesting that Troi used plastic mesh to keep the compost in place.

In regards to plants, I'm looking at an array really. Both rosette and stem plants.


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## dw1305 (23 Oct 2015)

Hi all, 





Manuel Arias said:


> You can always to cover your substrate with a gravel that holds the grip better, i.e. thinner grains......so that is why I recommended you to use a finer gravel for the top, so the plants have better grip, plus you add some weight to the substrate, making harder any disturbance.


 I've tried this and it doesn't work with cat litter. All the gravel will end up underneath the cat litter really quickly. It is the via the "nuts in muesli" effect (<"Granular convection">).

A plastic mesh between layers would work, but  you can't do that if you are already planted. 

cheers Darrel


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## Hyoscine (23 Oct 2015)

Maybe Eco-Complete? I was looking at this guide to different substrates, and it seems to be what you're after: decent quality, not crazy expensive, and denser than the other options.


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## Manuel Arias (23 Oct 2015)

dw1305 said:


> I've tried this and it doesn't work with cat litter. All the gravel will end up underneath the cat litter really quickly



Well dw1305, this strongly depends on the friction angle of the relative sizes you use, i.e. very related to the size of the particles and density, as well as the shape they have. I agree that with cat litter maybe will not work, but it is possible to mix substrates of different grain size to provide a better grip for plants by reducing the water circulation as exchange, what is called sphere packing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphere_packing, and that is doable with cat litter. Of course, if you do not want to mix them then it is likely not the solution.


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## Aeropars (23 Oct 2015)

Thinking about it, if I was to use some kind of mesh with something like Tropica base soil, would this still manage to keep it down?


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## alto (23 Oct 2015)

I'm a great fan of Tropica's Growth Substrate & their soil (at least in the powder form, I've not used the larger as I prefer the look of the finer particles ... local shop has both in display tanks (& other substrates as well))
Unlike ADA, Tropica soil has no/little ammonia (none that I've detected, same goes for shop display tanks), the powder is definitely good at "holding" even newly planted greenery after the initial "saturation" period ... which is rather a function of the manner in which I set up my tanks: I layer Growth Substrate, then Soil, then slowly fill with water - at this stage, running with filter overnight would likely prevent my "_air release_" phase but I'm always impatient & instead drain the tank back down for immediate planting.
I like to fill the tank to check any hardscape as perception in water is always rather different than perception in air & I generally end up altering a little ... or everything ...

There are usually some floaters from the soil, just ignore these as they will saturate & settle over the next day or so, enthusiastic netting will just encourage more _spheres of soil_ to take flight 

Planting in the damp soil is very easy, you can add more water to the tank when planting areas where the substrate is much deeper - note that you want to plant the lowest substrate areas first, as you spray plants to keep them moist during the process, these lower areas are soon below water & that slippery soil feeling is present when the soil has not saturated (I find this takes a few days rather than just 24 hours).

After planting, I carefully fill the tank using either paper towel or plastic layer over the plants/substrate - tank is really amazingly clear.

I've used Seachem Flourite (& Onyx) in all it's permutations, Carib Sea EcoComplete (black not the red - note I much prefer their o.l.d version of EC, I've spoken with the company & they insist they've not really changed the product but I came across some old used substrate recently, & it really is different than the present version), sand layered over Tropica GS, various sands/fine gravels layered over Sera Floredepot (no longer available to me) ... I'm surprised how much I like the Tropica soil.
(I'm a lazy aquarist & always do an enriched substrate so I can be erratic in water column dosing)
Note that I've never experienced either the Floredepot or Tropica GS leaving the bottom layer (both mudify quite nicely so while the odd large particle might emerge, I've not observed anything significant),   I tend to use fine gravels or sand.

George Farmer, Mark Evans have outstanding ukaps journals where they've used Colombo products.      

In general substrates such as Flourite & EcoComplete need additional nutrient support, especially in soft water.

How much return/value you get out of these specialized substrates depends ... from what you describe of your cat litter experience, that's cost you in terms of dissatisfaction, time, plant damage, etc ... this is where nano tanks are so useful, you can try various options at very reasonable cost.


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## Aeropars (27 Oct 2015)

Thanks for the reply Alto.

After doing a lot of research, coupled with previous experience and you guys here I have decided to go with what I know. I'm going to go for Tropica Plant Growth substrate capped with Unipac natural sand. I don't intend to move stuff around too much so I hope this doesn't then find its way to the surface.

Just need to get the Unipac sand now as it seems to be in short supply in their 25kg bags.


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