# What do I do with all these babies?



## shangman (18 Dec 2020)

A month or two ago I got a pair of Apistogramma Macmasteri Redmask, I got the male (a very beautiful responsive fish) first from my dad, and then bought a female for him 2 weeks later, as his fishwife had died a while ago. They lived in a tank with 7 kuhli loaches and some otos. They had been doing mating dances, but he ignored her most of the time so I thought nothing of it, I wasn't obsessed with the idea of breeding them and haven't raised any fry before. About 2 weeks ago, he died unexpectedly, which I was very sad about as he made me really fall for apistos (he died the day after I fed him some frozen bloodworms with a bloated stomach, tho it could be that the female killed him according to my friend). 2 days later, I woke up and she's herding around about 30 tinytiny fry, letting them eat from the leaflitter in the tank and hiding them in seedpods. As I rather loved their father (known as Mister Apister), I decided to try to raise a few to adulthood hoping they'd be as lovely as him, and I could keep 1/2 and give away the rest (assuming I'd have maybe 2 or 3 to give away). I've been hatching brine shrimp and adding extra leaf litter.





_Mister Apister, he was more beautiful and charming than this photo shows!_

So... I expected the kuhlis to eat most of these babies, and they haven't. I also kinda expected mother apisto to not be a great mother as it's her first time (she's aloso quite young), but it turns out she's the perfect mother. I still have 30+ fry, I don't know if any of them have died, the number looks the same (though impossible to actually count). At 1.5 weeks old, they're still small, but now too big to be eaten by the kuhlis' tiny mouths (they sometimes eat brine shrimp next to eachother and ignore eachother now). They've come a long way and are now zooming around the tank, eating and swimming all over, and making a much lazier school. It's fun looking after them, but like all parents I'm left wondering about their future.

I have 4 tanks - my main one which they're currently in (a 65l w/ rainwater), a 45l (softwater with crystal shrimp and pgymy corys), a 25l (tap water with cherry shrimp and snails), all heavily planted, and a quarantine tank that's about 25l that isn't set up atm. Will I have to spread them across tanks to grow up? Can I put some in the tapwater tank and have them be ok? Will some die off soon? Does anyone want any when they get to the right size (also what is that size?). I'm not sure how desireable they are or if a shop would want them, and I'd happily do my best for them to grow up, but I want to know if they'll have homes to go to. Please give me your advice and experience!


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## tam (18 Dec 2020)

No idea on the answers but congratulations on the babies. Worth talking to your local fish shop, mine would give store credit for fish but it just depends on the shop. If they will take them they will tell you the size and they might prefer to stagger it in batches.


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## mort (19 Dec 2020)

Congratulations. I've not bred this species before and the aggression levels varies massively in apistogramma, so what works for one species doesn't for another. As I kept the more laid back species I left the fry in the tank until they were a decent size. It was quite a few years ago but the tank was larger than yours and I had more wiggle room. I do remember having to remove the parents for one pair as they were trying to push the growing offspring out of their territory.
Most lfs will only take them at a size that they can sell. They won't want to grow them out before sale, so the size you generally see them available for is the size they want. You could, probably, get them to this size in the tank if they are quite a quiet species, as you don't have the dad. Any aggression will be spread across the group, rather than on one particular individual and you will have time until one of the males becomes dominant.

I doubt you'd have much trouble rehoming them as they are a beautiful species.


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## dean (20 Dec 2020)

Congratulations on raising the fry 

I’m sure a lot of the members would like some once they are a bit bigger 

You shouldn’t have any trouble finding them a home 


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## AverageWhiteBloke (20 Dec 2020)

Nice fish and well done! It's a real shame that quite a lot of places won't take in fish these days. It stopped a large enjoyable part of the hobby for me. I wouldn't even be bothered about getting credit from the LFS as breeding and raising fry is satisfaction enough for me. There is nowhere anywhere near me that will now accept fish so breeding is pretty pointless, there are so many I would love to try.
I had a pair of Kribs and some endlers in my community tank that would breed constantly and no one would take the Fry, I tried offering them up on local facebook pages (pretending I wasn't giving away fish) but by the time I managed to give some away they were that prolific I had more on the way. In the end I managed to get rid of all the female endlers and the Kribs I gave the pair to someone whose other tank occupants would eat the fry


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## shangman (20 Dec 2020)

Thank you for all the replies!! Today it seems like all the babies have grown their fins, getting closer to looking like fish rather than cute blobs. They also really 'hunt' for the brine shrimp now it's very cute.


tam said:


> No idea on the answers but congratulations on the babies. Worth talking to your local fish shop, mine would give store credit for fish but it just depends on the shop. If they will take them they will tell you the size and they might prefer to stagger it in batches.



Thank you! I will talk to my LFS when  I next go there, fingers crossed they're one that takes them like yours, store credit would be great. They do sell apistos at least  Maybe Brexit will make them more happy to take the local fish!



mort said:


> Congratulations. I've not bred this species before and the aggression levels varies massively in apistogramma, so what works for one species doesn't for another. As I kept the more laid back species I left the fry in the tank until they were a decent size. It was quite a few years ago but the tank was larger than yours and I had more wiggle room. I do remember having to remove the parents for one pair as they were trying to push the growing offspring out of their territory.
> Most lfs will only take them at a size that they can sell. They won't want to grow them out before sale, so the size you generally see them available for is the size they want. You could, probably, get them to this size in the tank if they are quite a quiet species, as you don't have the dad. Any aggression will be spread across the group, rather than on one particular individual and you will have time until one of the males becomes dominant.
> 
> I doubt you'd have much trouble rehoming them as they are a beautiful species.


Thank you for all the advice  I think from what I've read that Macmasteri aren't very aggressive, the parents haven't been mean at all so I think that's a good sign. I'll make sure to transfer over maybe 8 - 10 into the smaller tank so the aggression is still spread and no tanks are overwhelmed!



dean said:


> Congratulations on raising the fry
> 
> I’m sure a lot of the members would like some once they are a bit bigger
> 
> ...


Thank you, I hope they do, I would love to give them away to lovely fishkeepers on the forums so I know they'll go to good homes!



AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Nice fish and well done! It's a real shame that quite a lot of places won't take in fish these days. It stopped a large enjoyable part of the hobby for me. I wouldn't even be bothered about getting credit from the LFS as breeding and raising fry is satisfaction enough for me. There is nowhere anywhere near me that will now accept fish so breeding is pretty pointless, there are so many I would love to try.
> I had a pair of Kribs and some endlers in my community tank that would breed constantly and no one would take the Fry, I tried offering them up on local facebook pages (pretending I wasn't giving away fish) but by the time I managed to give some away they were that prolific I had more on the way. In the end I managed to get rid of all the female endlers and the Kribs I gave the pair to someone whose other tank occupants would eat the fry



Thanks! Yes it's more work raising them with all the food and things, but it's really fun and interesting too, and makes fascinating change! Especially when you really like the parents, it's very nice to help raise their fry. It's a big shame that shops won't take them, part of the reason I joined lots of online forums when I started fishkeeping this year was because I expected there to be this nice secondary market for fish from hobbyists and was surprised there wasn't much of that around (though now part of the apisto group on facebook which seems to trade more). 

That's sad for your kribs, they are so beautiful and definitely on my list of cichlids I'd love to keep! This has really made me want a larger tank, so that there's more space for raising fry, but also to keep some more fish that will eat 50 - 90% of the fry so it's still possible but not as many. Maybe just with some neons or something. My other thought was to make it beautifully aquascaped, get my boyfriends camera out and take amazing photos of the juveniles & parent and see if that lures people to take some!


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## mort (21 Dec 2020)

I find it really strange that lfs aren't interested in taking fish. When I ran one we happily took in locally bred species on the basis that we only paid for them after they had been sold for new suppliers. We did this as sometimes first time breeders didn't have much quality control and thought that fish with weird mouths or bent spines were "cute". If we knew the breeder we'd pay up front and mark the fish as locally bred and you'd be surprised how fast they would sell because people love locally bred fish. 
If it's a chain you normally shop at then try an independent but you might need to build up a report with the first, just don't turn up on their doorstep with a bag full.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (21 Dec 2020)

I couldn't agree with you more mate. It makes no sense to me. My local small LFS even pointed out when I took the Endlers when I asked if he would take some back said point blank no and I'd be better off not getting any females if that was the case. My only guess would be the issue of quarantine but they obviously aren't aware of how I keep my fish.
Imagine any other business refusing free high quality products that they can sell on for 100% profit. The mind boggles, really is annoying as it was my favourite part of the hobby. It was like Christmas every morning coming down to see how the fry were getting on.


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## shangman (2 Jan 2021)

I thought I would do a little update on the babies, who are now about a month old.

They've all developed their proper fins and bits, and I still have at least 25, though they're not in their tight schooling around mum behaviour any more, so I could easily still have 30 or so. Before I was feeding them twice a day with brine shrimp, but then I read on a forum someone who breeds them for a living who said it's best to feed 4 - 6 times a day. Since starting that before Christmas... they've grown a lot! In the past 2 days, some of them seem to have gone from 1cm to 1.5cm even. There is a big variety in the size of them, a small number haven't reached 1cm yet. I'm not sure if I should take those out and put them in a small tank for a few days to get a better feeding, atm I'm planning just to keep them in there and sell/give them away last. As they don't school as tightly, I think they get a more uneven feeding now, with the clever big ones always staying where I feed so they never miss out.

The babies have started doing 2 things in the past few days - 1. they can now eat baby daphnia and live food from my waterbutts, before they tried but it wouldn't fit in their mouths. I put this live food in so the mum wouldn't eat all the brine shrimp, and to give my khulis something tasty so they wouldn't eat the fry when they were smaller. I think this is good as I want the babies to have a diverse diet. I also add powered bugbites to the brine shrimp feeding so they hopefully start to eat that later.
2. They've started to have little fights during feeding, and after. I use a syringe to feed them, and did it a bit forcefully yesterday, making a small 50p-sized crater in the sand, and then 2 babies fought over it as a territory. It's very cute, and fascinating to see the behaviour in such small young fish.

I suspect I have a lot of males, which is why they're big + aggressive, tho I suppose the females can be aggressive too. For the first 2 weeks they were at 24 degrees, then I read that 26 is better so set it to that. I use the hydror heater, and my hand goes past the wheel whenever I turn off the filter for 10mins to feed. One night last week when doing this I seem to have unknowingly turned the heater up to 32!!! The next morning I noticed my khulis and otos acting oddly, and changed the water to get it down to 26 over a few hours, but I wonder if that might have made all the babies male. Since then it's been at 25.5, with a piece of tape over it just incase.

I made a gif of them, they're so much easier to see in movement! It's really hard to photograph them as my cameras rubbish, they're tiny, they move fast and they blend in really well with the background. Got a new camera coming this week though, so hopefully can get some better macro shots!








^ it has a lovely tiny tail too, which is so transparent it doesn't show up on camera yet!


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## Aqua360 (2 Jan 2021)

They look great!


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## Barbara Turner (11 Jan 2021)

Look very sweet. Shame we're all locked down.. I would love 4. Not sure which side of London you are


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## EA James (11 Jan 2021)

shangman said:


> As I rather loved their father (known as Mister Apister)


Amazing name 😂 I've been after some Apistogramma Borelii Opal, if i finally get a pair I'm stealing that name!

If these are suited to my hard water (which i doubt) I'd happily take some when the time is right

Cheers, James


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## shangman (12 Jan 2021)

Barbara Turner said:


> Look very sweet. Shame we're all locked down.. I would love 4. Not sure which side of London you are


I will reserve them for you! I'm happy to give them to people from this forum for free, feels like they'll be more likely to thrive with you lot! They are still very small, I'm hoping their coming to size will perfectly coincide with lockdown measures being ok with people coming and picking them up (middle of March). I live in Crystal Palace, South East London. Fingers crossed! 



EA James said:


> Amazing name 😂 I've been after some Apistogramma Borelii Opal, if i finally get a pair I'm stealing that name!
> 
> If these are suited to my hard water (which i doubt) I'd happily take some when the time is right
> 
> Cheers, James



Thank you! I never usually name the fish but it stuck 😂 I was actually going to get some Borellii myself, before I was given Mister Apister, they are really lovely.

Looking online, I don't think that my lot will do that well in hard water sadly, mine live in rain water with about 1/8 tap (used to get the rainwater to temperature). If you have any access to rainwater though, I do suggest it as it makes their care very easy.



Aqua360 said:


> They look great



Thank you!


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## shangman (12 Jan 2021)

Doing another little update as the babies are growing, and I got a new phone which takes somewhat less rubbish photos. IRL the tank looks much more beautiful and less filthy than in these images, whoops! next time will take the photos the day after a waterchange, rather than the day before.












_ps. I have a v annoying case of spirogyra, I dealt with it v successfully in another tank by doing a 4 day blackout & some excel, but until the babies are large or gone I don't really want to do that, just in case._

New milestones this week are that they can now eat some frozen daphnia, and also LOVE live daphnia, especially from the pond which are a bit smaller. The big ones they gang up on and eat them together, it's like watching a vicious David Attenborough doc at home. 😂

The sizes are a bigger range now, I still have a few very small ones at about 0.5-1cm, but most are about 1.5cm, and some even 2cm. I think they'll just remain smaller until the bigger ones grow up and are given away and they can finally get as much food as the want. What's very lovely, and impossible to photograph is the tiny irridescent gold and pale blue spots they've started to get on their heads, hopefully a sign of beautiful colouring to come.

This week some of them have also started to develop more markings, particular a stripe through the eye, and black marks at the beginning of the top fin and bottom fins. I think this might mean that these ones are female? Looking at photos of mum and dad, mum has a a much stronger black eye stripe, as well as a graphic black and yellow pelvic fin, and at the front of the dorsal fin. Dad had very little black and was just colourful all over. I hpoe my theory is right, as I think I might have an ok mix of sexes! 




A potential female, has the only teritory of the baby fish which is guarded constantly. All the others don't bother.




A potential male ( soz for blurry pic he wouldn't stay still)




Here is Mister Apister, as you can see he didn't have the black mark on it fins, and only thin dark marks round his eyes. Really hoping I have some lovely males with his colouring!

The ones with the 'female' markings are also the most aggressive ones, which matches with their mum who has taken to chasing them around. I think she'd like them to go away, but she's still bright yellow and they still follow her around a bit, though not like before. They do a lot more exploring now, going all over the tank top to bottom discovering. 

It's a lot of work growing all the brine shrimp and feeding them 4+ times a day, but it's a lovely lockdown activity and they are sooooo cute. I'm gonna miss them a lot when they're in their new homes! Absolutely dying for a new bigger tank now 😂😂


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## jaypeecee (12 Jan 2021)

shangman said:


> I'm happy to give them to people from this forum for free, feels like they'll be more likely to thrive with you lot! They are still very small, I'm hoping their coming to size will perfectly coincide with lockdown measures being ok with people coming and picking them up (middle of March). I live in Crystal Palace, South East London. Fingers crossed!


Hi @shangman 

When I first moved to London, I used to live in Forest Hill - just a stone's throw from Crystal Palace. But, I've moved out of London now and live 30 miles due West of London in Bracknell, Berkshire. So, it's impractical for me to take some of your lovely juveniles off your hands. FYI, I had no problem whatsoever selling 25 German Blue Ram juveniles to my local MA.

And, of course, congratulations on your new offspring!

JPC


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## shangman (25 Jan 2021)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @shangman
> 
> When I first moved to London, I used to live in Forest Hill - just a stone's throw from Crystal Palace. But, I've moved out of London now and live 30 miles due West of London in Bracknell, Berkshire. So, it's impractical for me to take some of your lovely juveniles off your hands. FYI, I had no problem whatsoever selling 25 German Blue Ram juveniles to my local MA.
> 
> ...


Ahh that's very close to me! Thank you for your well wishes!! 


I have good news - I managed a trip to the local fish shop (Aquatic Design Center in Balham), and they're happy to take the babies when they get to a good size (which is about an inch - 3cm). Still a good month or two of growth! They had some lovely apistos already, including a gorg pair of panduro, and a whole selection of other beautiful dwarf cichlids, so they seem like the perfect place to give them to. Will of course reserve some if anyone wants them here.
____

I have a question though! I have a really nasty outbreak of spirogyra is the tank. it's been there for a while, but was only a little bit when the babies were born. It's now all over, and twice a week when I do a waterchange, I have to spend an extra 30+mins on pulling it off all of the plants. This includes my beautiful crinum whose leaves I can't just trim to get rid of it. It's very, very irritating, especially as I already spend a lot of time making food for the babies. I had an outbreak in my other shrimp tank that was even worse, so I did a 3-day full blackout, and it worked amazingly with no problems and a beautifully clean tank after. There is a tiny bit there still, NOTHING like it was, and now I dose some excel it's really struggling. 

My question is... can I blackout a tank with all these babies for 3 days and expect them to be ok? It would really help with maintenance if I can, but I don't want to hurt them. I am thinking I could add a flap over a small hole so I can still feed them each day. What do you guys think?


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## dean (26 Jan 2021)

A short 3 day black out will not hurt the fish 
Ae you just going to turn the lights off for three days so there will be ambient light hitting the tank ? If so the fish will still be active and feeding won’t be a problem 

Small regular feeding will bring on the fry faster 
Once a hour is ideal if you have the time 


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## shangman (26 Jan 2021)

I'm planning on wrapping the tank in black plastic bags so no light gets in for 3 days, but will fashion some sort of 3D flap so I can still feed the fish small amounts a few times a day, while keeping it dark. If I let any light in the algae won't die off properly.

Once an hour!!! I work at home atm but with all the culturing and algae clearing and water changing and rainwater collecting I don't think I can do much more! Hopefully this blackout stops most of the algae clearing.

I feed 3 - 6 times a day a mix BBS, waterbutt-grown livefood, defrosted daphnia, and various sizes of bugbites when there isn't enough BBS (the cultures vary a lot and boom-bust quickly). They also now eat the loach pellets and algae wafers, they seem to eat anything now the greedy babies.

I also now do 2 40% water changes a week as they eat so much.


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## shangman (15 Feb 2021)

An... interesting update.





Today I noticed that motherfish was not harrassing and chasing the babies as usual, and was hanging back more just watching over them calmy, and going in her long seedpod sometimes. Then I noticed that she was wiggling and what I can only call _presenting herself_ to one or two of the biggest baby fish, and she's gone particularly yellow. Pretty sure she wants to bang her babies, talk about an oedipus complex! I thought that one of the babies she shook at was a female, apparently I'm bad at working out what sex they are lol. The babies just ignored her and ran away though, they are definitely bigger but not sure they're that big yet. Perhaps I should call the teens rather than babies now.

I was planning on keeping one of the males as her partner, but also that feels gross to me, is it gross in the fish world? I only really kept the babies at the beginning because I wanted one like their dad who was so beautiful, but I'm attached to motherfish and can't get rid of her to keep just a few of the babies, she is my fish for life, so I thoguht maybe I'd keep 1 male. Is it deeply f***ed up in the fish world? I have no idea lol, I imagine that many of the babies will be bought as pairs and mated, idk if all of this is weird or not. 

The babies are much bigger and doing very well, I moved some big rocks out of the tank that took up a lot of floor space and replaced them with sand and big pile of dried leaves, which has really helped make all the fish calmer and they're acting more natural. The kuhli loaches and otos in the tank really love this too, they're also much more active and hide less now. There are some big size differences, I have 2 big ones, then 8 that are just behind, 15 mid-sized and 5 small ones that'll be with me for at least a month longer than the rest I think. I read online that sometimes the small ones always remain small even when mature which would be very cute and interesting. The babies eat any food I put in the tank now, so they have a mixed diet of live, frozen and dried. Also they get the occasional wild-coloured cherry shrimp from my nanotank, which they love to hunt, I think a lot of the shrimp survive just fine in the plants still, they're very fast. 

Also, I did the blackout and it went well, no casualties, though the algae didn't die off like it did in my other tank, so will have to do it again sometime. At least I know the blackouts are ok on the fish!


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## Courtneybst (15 Feb 2021)

I wonder how they would fare in tap water


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## shangman (15 Feb 2021)

I'm not sure, they're in rainwater with about 10% tap (to heat up the water during wc as it's so cold rn). I know that some apistos do ok in hard water, although most won't breed successfully as the eggs can't develop. I think ideally there would so some RO/rainwater/peat involved, not sure if maybe CO2 makes it better with a lower ph? I've never really understood that side of it, not using co2 myself. I saw there was another thread arguing about this a few days ago, with some saying that clean water of any kind trumps ph. Anyone else have any thoughts on the possibility?

I live close to Croydon so would be a local pickup when they're bigger. I'm happy to give them to UKAPs members as I think they'll get better care than whoever comes into the lfs!


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## Wookii (15 Feb 2021)

shangman said:


> An... interesting update.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's got to be the quote of the day 🤣

Your tank looks great by the way, I love the natural look of your planting.


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## mort (15 Feb 2021)

Bear in mind I live in Norfolk, but it's not that weird to breed siblings. In a perfect world it isn't ideal but you do get it in the wild ocassionally. Physically you probably wouldn't notice any difference to if you bred them with a non family member as it takes many generations for most defects to occur.  Would it be better if you added more diversity with an unrelated fish, arguably yes but probably more for our piece of mind. There is no issue if you don't want to raise the next generation either.

I know someone who has kept cherry shrimp and endlers in their tank for well over a decade, never adding new stock, and they are unnoticeably different to any others you would see. That doesn't mean they have the same vigour or health of more diverse fish though.


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## Sarpijk (15 Feb 2021)

This tank looks so natural as others have said and would to see a proper presentation.


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## shangman (15 Feb 2021)

Wookii said:


> That's got to be the quote of the day 🤣
> 
> Your tank looks great by the way, I love the natural look of your planting.







Sarpijk said:


> This tank looks so natural as others have said and would to see a proper presentation.



Thank you both! Even though there's no CO2, I do spend a stupid amount of time staring at the tank and planning how to make it look more serene + better for the fish to placate the desire for a new bigger tank. I'll post some more photos tomorrow of the whole thing  I'm the daughter of two gardeners, maybe all that dragging me around every garden in the UK as a kid actually did rub off... 



mort said:


> Bear in mind I live in Norfolk, but it's not that weird to breed siblings. In a perfect world it isn't ideal but you do get it in the wild ocassionally. Physically you probably wouldn't notice any difference to if you bred them with a non family member as it takes many generations for most defects to occur.  Would it be better if you added more diversity with an unrelated fish, arguably yes but probably more for our piece of mind. There is no issue if you don't want to raise the next generation either.
> 
> I know someone who has kept cherry shrimp and endlers in their tank for well over a decade, never adding new stock, and they are unnoticeably different to any others you would see. That doesn't mean they have the same vigour or health of more diverse fish though.



🤣
That's good to know, thank you! Reassuring in a way, I think we'll see as they get closer to the right age whether I don't think of how weird it is every time I see a pair together. The parents Mr Apister and Motherfish are from 2 different sources, so hopefully that keeps the genes fresh for a while. Wish I had a big enough tank to keep some babies on and get Motherfish a new husband as well, alas. On the upside if Motherfish does have any more fry with her current babies soon as she seems to want, I'm pretty sure the current brood would polish them off almost immediately, they are very greedy. I can't be keeping multiple broods at the same time, it's too much work!!


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## mort (16 Feb 2021)

Giving her a new husband is definitely the best thing if you are wanting to breed them further but apart from the weird feeling you get, a little bit of piscatorial incest isn't much to worry about.
I'm trying to build a perpetual pencilfish group. I'm at about ten years now and I have swapped fish for new ones to try and maintain condition but unless you are going for many generations then I don't think you need to be overly concerned.


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## shangman (17 Feb 2021)

mort said:


> Giving her a new husband is definitely the best thing if you are wanting to breed them further but apart from the weird feeling you get, a little bit of piscatorial incest isn't much to worry about.
> I'm trying to build a perpetual pencilfish group. I'm at about ten years now and I have swapped fish for new ones to try and maintain condition but unless you are going for many generations then I don't think you need to be overly concerned.



"_piscatorial incest_! what a phrase! 😂Thank you for the advice, I'm thinking I might try to find her a new husband, or maybe start upping the amount of tapwater to rainwater ratio so they don't breed as much - the babies are lovely but a lot of work, would prefer it happens once a year rather than constantly. The only thing that stops me is that Mr Apister was an exceptionally pretty fish (my photos did not do him justice), and I seen lots of other images of macmasteri online and they looka  bit rubbish in comparison, will have to try to source another good one. 

Your colony of pencilfish sounds fascinating, do you have a thread on it? I would love to see some photos as it sounds very successful. Currently have my eye on a bigger secondhand tank so I can keep some pencilfish with a bigger group of the apistos and keep the babies.


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## mort (17 Feb 2021)

Sorry I don't have a tank thread. I used to enthusiastically take pictures of everything but then I realised I never looked at them and stopped. I'm in the midst of  a revamp with the tank, swapping out the old substrate so I can add some cories or apistogramma (can't decide which but it will likely not be till next year anyhow). I'll try and document the change and post it.


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## dw1305 (17 Feb 2021)

Hi all, 


shangman said:


> Your colony of pencilfish sounds fascinating, do you have a thread on it?


 I've kept a couple of different _Copella_ sp. as loose harems.  These were <"_Copella arnoldi__">, _and I still have <_"Copella callolepis"> (_and their still spawning_), _but I've only have one surviving fry (now 3/4 adult size). They aren't strictly Pencilfish, but they are <"the same family">. 

My experience with the Lebiasinidae generally has been that they are a lot fiercer than most people acknowledge and that the males are very territorial. I know experienced fish breeders who got hold of _N. morthentaleri_ and _N. rubrocaudatus _when they were new fish and very expensive, only to find that they needed very large tanks to keep more than one male in and even the females are quite aggressive to one another.

cheers Darrel


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## mort (17 Feb 2021)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I've kept a couple of different _Copella_ sp. as loose harems.  These were <"_Copella arnoldi__">, _and I still have <_"Copella callolepis"> (_and their still spawning_), _but I've only have one surviving fry (now 3/4 adult size). They aren't strictly Pencilfish, but they are <"the same family">.
> 
> My experience with the Lebiasinidae generally has been that they are a lot fiercer than most people acknowledge and that the males are very territorial.



I'd love to do splash tetras but haven't the space, or the money, for a group the sized I'd like.

It's a very fair description of their territoriality but there are some very calm pencilfish as well, like Eques. I keep my beckfordi (I'd suggest middling in terms of aggression ) in a jungle style tank which is important, but in a decent number (16-20). I only see the males sparring occassionally and the females hanging out in a group this time of year but as soon as the water temperature raises and they get live food, the females and immature males, are glad of all the cover.


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## dw1305 (17 Feb 2021)

Hi all, 


mort said:


> but there are some very calm pencilfish as well, like Eques.


Yes assuming I go down the route of some new dwarf cichlids (and I'm pretty sure I will eventually) I will definitely use _N. eques_ as their dither. 

I'll keep the _C. callolepis _that I have until they all eventually wander off to the great fishy heaven, but I won't keep them again, unless I do it as a bigger group in a much bigger tank.

cheers Darrel


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## shangman (17 Feb 2021)

I was definitely planning on a group of Eques, what they lack in colour they make up for in being amusingly bizarre! Have you ever kept them with tetras?

Also slightly tempted by some of the coral beckfordii, so I don't have so many baby apistos in the future though...



dw1305 said:


> Yes assuming I go down the route of some new dwarf cichlids (and I'm pretty sure I will eventually) I will definitely use _N. eques_ as their dither.


What ones are you considering? I spend far too much time dreaming of all the lovely SA dwarfs I'd like to keep! These apistos are a gateway fishdrug.


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## dw1305 (17 Feb 2021)

Hi all,


shangman said:


> What ones are you considering?


Probably _A. baenschi _or_ A. panduro._


shangman said:


> I was definitely planning on a group of Eques, what they lack in colour they make up for in being amusingly bizarre!  Have you ever kept them with tetras?


I've had them in the past with Black-Neon Tetra (_Hyphessobrycon herbertaxelrodi_), I started using the Tetras as dithers and I decided to have a swap, but I still had a few tetras left. I probably wouldn't recommend it, they are definitely not a very competitive fish.

cheers Darrel


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## shangman (17 Feb 2021)

dw1305 said:


> Probably _A. baenschi _or_ A. panduro._
> 
> I've had them in the past with Black-Neon Tetra (_Hyphessobrycon herbertaxelrodi_), I started using the Tetras as dithers and I decided to have a swap, but I still had a few tetras left. I probably wouldn't recommend it, they are definitely not a very competitive fish.
> 
> cheers Darrel


There was a pair of panduro at my LFS recently, they're really wonderful IRL with that red-striped tail and neon patches, and the female is particularly special looking, v good choice!

Alas, I've just been tempted by a larger tank and had fantasies of tetras with pencils! then again, a big shoal of only one will probably looking much more gorgeous


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## mort (17 Feb 2021)

When I kept eques I only had them with corydoras, basically similar to a pair of apisto's in terms of competition, and they did fine. I do think that even your average tetra can easily out compete them though because species like black neons can hammer the food when it goes in.
They are poles apart from beckfordi which are greedy guts that would be first to the food.


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## shangman (22 Feb 2021)

Evening 

I thought I would do an explanation about how my tank is planted in case anyone wanted to know, since I noticed some people maybe wanting to plant in a similar way. I'm really flattered that people like my tank and my planting!! 
This is my first tank and I've spent the past 9 months learning a lot and fiddling with it a lot, it's not finished or perfect by any means, it's absolutely riddled with spirogyra which is the bane of my life. However I am pretty happy with the natural-ish feel of it, it's definitely looking the best it's been so far. Motherfish as always takes pride of place in the front.





I don't use CO2 but I do use rainwater, which I think helps me grow plants which are more picky. I like to just try plants and see how it goes, sometimes it's great, sometimes it's rubbish, I was very sad when my Rotala Wallichii hardly grew for 2 months, but every failed plant is a spot for a potential great plant, so I ripped it out and added an echinodorus instead lol. Every area of the tank I've completely changed at some point as I've learnt, except for the tiger lily and the crinum as their roots are extensive and I don't want to disturb them. I use soil under sand so I can grow a wider variety of plants, and can grow some red plants without CO2. I really like mixing colours, so I have dark pink from the tiger lotus, a brighter pink/red from the Ludwigia sp. Mini Super Red, a hint of orangey-red from Rotala Hra (this plant doesn't love me but it puts up with me and has about 50% nice stems, it's a bit hidden atm cos I did a trim of the roots a week ago), and browny-pinks from Echinodorus Rose. I also like to make sure that all the shades of green are there, from deep dark greens, to emerald-rich, to bright and yellow-y. I think it gives the tank more depth and contrast. If I did the tank again I would've included some java fern on wood because that's a really nice green. I think thats what's nice about the right side bit of tank, it's just nice green stripes with slightly different shades and textures, if I had a bigger tank I'd do the same but with even more varieties of long thin plant.

In a no CO2 tank obviously some plants won't be as thick and luscious, but I still like them so I fake that by cramming in lots of plants with different heights, leaf sizes and textures to cover any bare areas and make it more interesting. It's not dissimilar to the way a floral bouquet is done. I use a lot of grasses (Vallisneria Nana, Echinodorus Tenellus, Eleocharis acicularis) which always fill an area out and give it definition in a nice fluffy way. The vallis nana adds height and movement but isn't too thick or heavy, the smaller grasses add volume. I don't know why, but apistogramma look great amongst grass so I recently added a lot more of it and I love it. I use a few stem plants as background clumps (Rotala Hra and Heteranthera Zosterifolia), but they're not as good without CO2 and have tatty bottoms, which I hide with echinodorus and grasses, as well as place a few single stems of stem plants which do grow nicely for me (Ludwigia sp. Mini Super Red, and Ludwigia Arcuata) at the front of the clumps, where they blend in and add highlights. When you mix the plants up a bit it makes it look more natural, you can just take a few stems from one bush and dot them around the rest of the tank and it'll just soften everything, like in the wild when plants sow themselves and end up in random areas as a nice surprise.

My feature plants are Nymphaea Lotus red and Crinum Calamistratum (which if I did it again I might not put where it is, it'd go further into the back and it really has taken over the front, but I don't have the heart to move it because it's a real star plant). I also have 2 Echinodorus Rose, and 2 Echinodorus Hadi Red Pearl which are low with round dark green leaves, I really like them. The Echinodorus Rose in the front left corner I would move and put a Hadi Red Pearl there instead, but the otos really like sitting on it so I won't for now.  Echinodorus make fantastic filler plants for both background and foreground, they look especially beautiful with grasses so are perfect for my tank, and they come in all sorts of sizes and colours. My dream is to get the very rare Echinodorus Iguazu 2009, which is massive and a fabulous green.




_Sorry you can see my reflection, will one day soon try to take some better pics._

I really love sandy areas, but I don't like just basic sand with nothing in it, it looks a bit barren to me. I use a few handfuls of gravel and some small pebbles (I picked them up at the edge of the stony carpark at my allotment lol) to add a bit of variety to the sand, along with some small dried leaves and twigs, and I keep MTS to turn it + they look cute in it. I think of the aquarium a bit like a theatre set with layers of lines adding depth, and in the front/around sand I use small grasses to create definition. My grasses are mostly grown in drifts, like triangles/lines coming out from the heavier planting. I never plant in a grid, and I prefer to plant grasses individually rather than in a big clump so it looks more feathery. If I had wood in my tank I would follow the lines of the wood and extend in that directiom across the sand with the grasses. I use Hydrocotyle Verticillata at the edge of the major planted areas with the grasses, they look like toadstools and are really magical. Previously, before my tank got overrun with algae that took it over I used Hydrocotyle Leucocephala, which I glued to small pebbles and made pretty arches. It looked great and is not as demanding as Hydrocotyle Verticillata. The grasses and hydro are thicker by the bigger plants, and then thin out but still there as details. Finally I have some small buces (Bucephalandra Kedagang Godzilla) which I glued to my prettiest pebbles, these act as a strong structured mini entrance plants, like bushes at the sides of your front door or something lol. Most lowdown plants are a bright green, and the buces add a nice bit of dark green and purple, something like Crypt Albida Brown would work well too to add that little detail.




_The tank many months ago with Hydrocotyle Leucocephala archway, and when my lotus was a behaving better. _

The most important thing to me is that the fish enjoy their home, which I think they do! The kuhlis love rooting about amongst the mulmy roots, and climbing through the stem plants, the otos basically live in the echinodoruses big wide leaves, and the apistos seem to like it all, honestly my faouvirte fish they're so intelligent and funny. The big handfuls of leaves also provide a feeling of depth in the tank and help it look more natural. Since I don't have a dark background, I put big dried leaves right at the bottom back of the tank between the plants and the glass, partly to get the depth that the darkness brings, and also so the fish feel safer and not exposed.

Some babies, they're really getting bigger


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## Courtneybst (22 Feb 2021)

shangman said:


> Evening
> 
> I thought I would do an explanation about how my tank is planted in case anyone wanted to know, since I noticed some people maybe wanting to plant in a similar way. I'm really flattered that people like my tank and my planting!!
> This is my first tank and I've spent the past 9 months learning a lot and fiddling with it a lot, it's not finished or perfect by any means, it's absolutely riddled with spirogyra which is the bane of my life. However I am pretty happy with the natural-ish feel of it, it's definitely looking the best it's been so far. Motherfish as always takes pride of place in the front.
> ...



I avoided getting Hydrocotyle Verticillata as it seemed like it was overly demanding but it seems to work for you without CO2! Anything in particular that keeps it healthy?


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## alto (23 Feb 2021)

Courtneybst said:


> Hydrocotyle Verticillata as it seemed like it was overly demanding


It’s much “happier” in very soft water ... as long as it gets sufficient light (not a lot of light but it will lose ground in an overgrown tank where the Rotala Vietnam H’ra and H micranthemoides have filled the space) it will meander along (not the same growth that you see in Tropica’s plant video)


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## alto (23 Feb 2021)

@ shangman fantastic story tank

If you get a larger tank and want to continue with the rainwater, I’d suggest a D filamentosus group, I kept a group of 7 in a planted Rio 180, they remain my favourite fish 

Aquarium Glaser has a series of short articles and excellent photos from Dicrossus sp. Du hast nach Dicrossus gesucht - Aquarium Glaser GmbH

(though really I’ve not seen any photos online that show the true colors and iridescence of the fish I had - they were wild caught but no information on locale)

One of the better articles (ie more resemble my own experience )Dabbling in Dicrossus: A discussion on sexing, spawning, and rearing under-appreciated dwarves by Rebecca Goldring | Cichlid Room Companion


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## shangman (23 Feb 2021)

Courtneybst said:


> I avoided getting Hydrocotyle Verticillata as it seemed like it was overly demanding but it seems to work for you without CO2! Anything in particular that keeps it healthy?





alto said:


> It’s much “happier” in very soft water ... as long as it gets sufficient light (not a lot of light but it will lose ground in an overgrown tank where the Rotala Vietnam H’ra and H micranthemoides have filled the space) it will meander along (not the same growth that you see in Tropica’s plant video)


As Alto said, I think it's the soft water that really helps. When I started the tank I got 1 pot of it, and it never died but it basically never grew, I think it wasn't a fan of me cycling the tank or something. A few months ago I thought... well it doesn't grow but I'll get another pot anyway and use it as a detail plant, and surprisingly now it's growing very well and even gaining some height in some areas. I just use rainwater, change about 40% every week  + fertilise with TNC Complete once a week. I also have quite high light (probs why I can't get rid of the spiro) for a lowtech tank I think, though I do have a lot of floating plants to cut it.



alto said:


> @ shangman fantastic story tank
> 
> If you get a larger tank and want to continue with the rainwater, I’d suggest a D filamentosus group, I kept a group of 7 in a planted Rio 180, they remain my favourite fish
> 
> ...


I may or may not have just bought a very nice second hand larger tank for my birthday 👀👀👀👀

And I may or may not have been oggling @dw1305 <post on his Discrossus> yesterday... though I was hoping they wouldn't mind sharing with a pair of my macs in this magical larger tank. I'm thinking of keeping just a few really great fascinating species, probably some nice pencils, as well as a few more otos (my otos are all extremely fat and I'm convinced I can eventually get them to breed if I have a few more).

They do look like wonderful little fish, just the sort of thing I like. Thank you for the link to see more about them! What was your favourite thing about them?

Where did you source yours from, I've never seen them in any of the shops I go to or on any online lists?

It is fascinating how difficult it is to capture the beautiful of fish in photographs and even videos, somehow their brilliance and subtle irridescence never quite gets captured.


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## Courtneybst (23 Feb 2021)

shangman said:


> As Alto said, I think it's the soft water that really helps.
> 
> I may or may not have just bought a very nice second hand larger tank for my birthday



Gotcha! I wish I had enough rainwater. I change out nearly 200L of water every week so not practical for me lol.

Happy Birthday too! I'm also a February baby


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## shangman (23 Feb 2021)

Courtneybst said:


> Gotcha! I wish I had enough rainwater. I change out nearly 200L of water every week so not practical for me lol.
> 
> Happy Birthday too! I'm also a February baby


Who needs the gym when you're doing rainwater waterchanges on a big tank on the second floor? Another benefit of the hobby I suppose... 

Thank you! Happy Birthday to you too February baby! 🥳🤩


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## dw1305 (23 Feb 2021)

Hi all,


shangman said:


> Where did you source yours from, I've never seen them in any of the shops I go to or on any online lists?


You can occasionally pick up _Dicrossus filamentosus, _they come in as by-catch with Cardinal Tetra etc. If you ask around shops locally they may be willing to retain any that come in that way for you. 

_Dicrossus maculatus _would be more problematic, I got mine from "Rare Aquatics", who have since shut. A friend picked them up for me (from Crewe), and  I collected them subsequently from him in Bristol. They were great for 18 months (I got them as juveniles), but eventually bloated.

A fairly general observation with _Dicrossus _spp. is that they need very careful feeding as adults.


shangman said:


> It is fascinating how difficult it is to capture the beautiful of fish in photographs and even videos, somehow their brilliance and subtle irridescence never quite gets captured.


Really difficult to photograph, the blue _Apistogramma_ males are the same.  This <"the best I've got">, but I'm not a photographer and it doesn't really do him justice. 




 

cheers Darrel


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## shangman (23 Feb 2021)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> You can occasionally pick up _Dicrossus filamentosus, _they come in as by-catch with Cardinal Tetra etc. If you ask around shops locally they may be willing to retain any that come in that way for you.
> 
> ...


Ooh that's interesting, when the tank is set up I'll start to ask around then. Do they come to shops in bags with the tetras?

I think the filamentosus look like the ones to get if I can, according to @alto's link they might be a bit easier to breed, and if they're easier to find too then that's grand. 

What did you feed yours? In the summer the waterbutts are booming, but the winter is a lot more difficult. I think I need to learn more about cultures and see if I can set some up in the shed or something. 

Your male looks beautiful still, almost gold, with those crazy blue ventrils and red! It reminds me a bit of my sparkling gouramis but better. Very sweet, definitely at the top of the new stocking list!


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## alto (23 Feb 2021)




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## dw1305 (23 Feb 2021)

Hi all,


shangman said:


> Do they come to shops in bags with the tetras?


Yes, they come in with wild collected fish, you also occasionally get _Apistogramma iniridae _and _Poecilocharax weitzmani _as well. Problem is that you usually only get one at a time.


shangman said:


> they might be a bit easier to breed,


More difficult I think, they need really soft water. I kept them a long time ago and I never got them to spawn.


shangman said:


> What did you feed yours? In the summer the waterbutts are booming, but the winter is a lot more difficult. I think I need to learn more about cultures and see if I can set some up in the shed or something.


It was the winter where it all went wrong, I fed them more Black and Grindal worms. 

I'd definitely feed them a lot more crustaceans, if there is a "next time". Baby Brine Shrimp is used as a staple by lots of dwarf cichlid keepers, but _Dicrossus_ will eat pretty much everything, including Earthworm flakes etc. 

cheers Darrel


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## shangman (23 Feb 2021)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Yes, they come in with wild collected fish, you also occasionally get _Apistogramma iniridae _and _Poecilocharax weitzmani _as well. Problem is that you usually only get one at a time.
> 
> ...


Cardinals, dicrossus a. Irniridae and those fabulous _Poecilocharax weitzmani  repair make a great tank too! Never heard of that kind of tetra, v pretty._

How do you get the water so soft? My rainwater is about 6.5, with a GH of 0 and KH between 0 and 4. Is it just shed loads of leaves? Do you think there could live nice lives in my water in the new tank, and I could keep my current tank and change it into a blackwater breeding tank of they look perky? I don't feel the need to try breed them, though it would be nice to try once. The apistos were great because they were quite easy, just a few seedpods, my water as normal and a slightly higher temp, I don't want to go to extremes for it in a community tank.

Ahh good old BBS, I'm a dab hand at that after all the feedings the apistos get. Not sure I'm into making worm crisps, earthworms are sacred creatures in my house! If I managed to breed some I'd make sure you got some to give it a second go, though you may wait several years 😂


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## dw1305 (23 Feb 2021)

Hi all,


shangman said:


> How do you get the water so soft?


Our <"rainwater is never very soft">, so I don't keep any real "blackwater fish" now. It is OK for maintenance, but not for them to spawn successfully.


shangman said:


> Is it just shed loads of leaves?


Certainly helps, Oak leaves should lower pH.

cheers Darrel


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## dw1305 (23 Feb 2021)

Hi all,


shangman said:


> Poecilocharax weitzmani .......... Never heard of that kind of tetra, v pretty.


Yes, they don't really behave like a Tetra. I've only seen singletons (and all male), but if I was somewhere where there were a few more I'd be very tempted, despite what I just said about blackwater fish.

We have an inactive member (@bogman) who bred them, which is <"a really unusual event"*>.

* I'd strongly advise all of you not to look at this thread unless you want severe fish (and fish tank) envy.

cheers Darrel


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## dean (24 Feb 2021)

mort said:


> Bear in mind I live in Norfolk, but it's not that weird to breed siblings.



Another great quote from this topic 

Cross breeding parent fish to their fry (carefully written) and sibling fish to each other has been a long practise in the fish world to develop certain characteristics such as colour or elongated fins just look at how many strains of guppy exist 
I suspect it has also been used on other domesticated animals such as dogs and cats to give us all the breeds that are available but I don’t have any first hand experience of it but I’m sure there will be more knowledgable members on here to lend an expert opinion 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Conort2 (24 Feb 2021)

shangman said:


> Poecilocharax weitzmani repair make a great tank too! Never heard of that kind of tetra, v pretty.


These are great, I’ve got a group at the moment. More like a dwarf cichlid than a tetra. The males when they display are something else! I’d highly recommend them.

Cheers


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## shangman (24 Feb 2021)

alto said:


>



Wonderful, I love watching the fish in the wild videos on youtube, it's what made me realise I needed to add way more leaves to the tank! Seeing those big mixed schools is so magical 😍



dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Yes, they don't really behave like a Tetra. I've only seen singletons (and all male), but if I was somewhere where there were a few more I'd be very tempted, despite what I just said about blackwater fish.
> 
> ...



Omg I can't believe I've never seen this thread!! I love how many amazing tanks are lurking on this site, super inspiring, what a wonderful selection of fish and plants. I dream of the days of 6-foot tanks with monster java ferns...

I just asked Ian Glaubes @ Kew Aquatics this morning about some fish (he has Dicrossus filamentosus!!! omg!!!), and he said he also sometimes has _Poecilocharax weitzmani! _Apparently also sometimes some _Ammocryptocharax elegans_, which is another gorgeous little fish that's caught my eye. He is where I got my Apisto motherfish from too. 



dean said:


> Another great quote from this topic
> 
> Cross breeding parent fish to their fry (carefully written) and sibling fish to each other has been a long practise in the fish world to develop certain characteristics such as colour or elongated fins just look at how many strains of guppy exist
> I suspect it has also been used on other domesticated animals such as dogs and cats to give us all the breeds that are available but I don’t have any first hand experience of it but I’m sure there will be more knowledgable members on here to lend an expert opinion
> ...



This is a very good point! Probably my parent-fish, despite coming from different sources are distant cousins, being a specific colourful version of the macmasteri (they're red masks). I won't worry about all the hanky panky for now....



Conort2 said:


> These are great, I’ve got a group at the moment. More like a dwarf cichlid than a tetra. The males when they display are something else! I’d highly recommend them.
> 
> Cheers



Listen, you can't tell us something like this and not show us a little picture or something, they sound fascinating and I want to see! More like a dwarf cichlid??? Why isn't my new tank big enough to fit all of these wonderful fish in it!


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## Conort2 (24 Feb 2021)

shangman said:


> Listen, you can't tell us something like this and not show us a little picture or something, they sound fascinating and I want to see! More like a dwarf cichlid???



Ha I’ll try grab some pictures of them, they’re pretty secretive little things that lurk around in the plants most of the time. The Ammocryptocharax sound great and you should definitely give them a go. It’s one that’ll be on the wish list when I upgrade this aquarium in the near future. 

Another one which is great but a bit larger than the weitzmani is crenuchus spilurus. They’re like a darter tetra on steroids. Another one which is much more dwarf cichlid like than characin. A great fish with very interesting behaviour.

Cheers


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## Conort2 (24 Feb 2021)

shangman said:


> show us a little picture or something


Managed to take some terrible pictures, the showy males were being quite shy but managed to coax them out briefly with tetra prima. To be fair this is normally the case as they defend little territories in the plants whilst the females roam the whole aquarium.

Cheers


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## shangman (25 Feb 2021)

Conort2 said:


> Managed to take some terrible pictures, the showy males were being quite shy but managed to coax them out briefly with tetra prima. To be fair this is normally the case as they defend little territories in the plants whilst the females roam the whole aquarium.
> 
> Cheers


Wonderful, looks like your coral pencils _(?)_ are trying to steal the show! They go very well together, I love the weird little faces of the tetras.



Conort2 said:


> Ha I’ll try grab some pictures of them, they’re pretty secretive little things that lurk around in the plants most of the time. The Ammocryptocharax sound great and you should definitely give them a go. It’s one that’ll be on the wish list when I upgrade this aquarium in the near future.
> 
> Another one which is great but a bit larger than the weitzmani is crenuchus spilurus. They’re like a darter tetra on steroids. Another one which is much more dwarf cichlid like than characin. A great fish with very interesting behaviour.
> 
> Cheers






Look at this face!! They look so grumpy 😂 Darter tetras are so fascinating.


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## Wookii (25 Feb 2021)

They do look like they have some serious jaws! Shrimp beware!


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## Nathanh2150 (25 Feb 2021)

Would love a male/female Apistogramma Macmasteri Redmask when u have them for sale also happy to pay for them to be posted. Keep me updated. Congratulations on the success 🙃


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## shangman (2 Mar 2021)

Nathanh2150 said:


> Would love a male/female Apistogramma Macmasteri Redmask when u have them for sale also happy to pay for them to be posted. Keep me updated. Congratulations on the success 🙃


Thank you! I will have some ready soon but sadly I'm not going to be able to ship them, I've never done it before and I don't feel confident that I could do it safely. 

----

<I posted an update about these babies in my new thread about my new tank, which the tanks will live in as a grow-out tank before I do it up properly.>

If anyone wants a group of unsexed (ish, I might be able to make some guesses) Apistogramma Macmasteri Redmask juveniles I think there are some big enough to go as most are 2cm, with maybe 4-6 being 3cm. If interested, they'd have to be picked up from South London I don't think I can ship. Of course people can wait longer too and get them bigger lol, but they're already very cute and funny and it is a joy to see them grow, so I get it if people are interested in that. I think I will try to set up the bigger tank this weekend, so I could sort some of the bigger ones out then if anyone was interested. No worries if not, I can always give them to the LFS, I do enjoy watching them grow.

I probably won't update this post anymore, it'll all go into the new journal.


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