# Definative answers are they possible?



## somethingfishy (30 Mar 2012)

Im what you might call a no nothing   

which is why a read alot on here, i have to say this site is pretty awesome and im really pleased to have been introduced to it.

Im trying to run a low tech tank (all the specs are in my journal) I am constantly confused on the issue of water changes!
I have read comments from different people on here and there are definately mixed opinions? 

none to little
often and little
seldom and big 

I know every tank is different and there are a massive amount of varying factors, but there must also be a large amount of common ground too?

Is it just a case of trying everything until you find what works for you and basically ignore everything else?
Im very new to the hobby and i suppose its a hobby that has been around for years but has dramatically changed, and is changing so maybe there is no 123 answer.

Apologies if i have missed some articles that could answer my own questions, and im well aware that this is a topic that has been covered alot.
But im finding the more i delve the more confused i am (haha which probably links back to the beginning of this that im a know nothing   )

cheers dave


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## geaves (30 Mar 2012)

As a total noob to this as well, I don't think there is a definitive answer, it all comes down to experience and what suits your set up.

I'm only in week 3, and tomorrow I shall be adding some hardscape and replanting, in other words a redesign, because the plants have already shown some substantial growth I shall continue with 50% water change twice weekly for another week, by then I should be able to add a cleaning crew.

Then add a few fish weekly, move the water change to about 20% weekly then perhaps fortnightly, eventually, hopefully to none, but this will require monitoring, both for the plants and fish condition.

The objective should be to achieve a balance between the plants up take of nutrients from the fish waste. Having visited an lfs who actually creates his own low tech tanks, he has one in his shop from 2009 and does nothing to it other feed the fish. It's a Juwel 120, the lighting is a low wattage T8 and the tank is full of plants, a rough count of fish was about 20.

I did read somewhere that the idea of adding a filter to a Walstead style tank was to enable an increase in fish stock, whereby the filter would assist with the bio load.

Hey....but what do I know.... 

Geoff


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## somethingfishy (30 Mar 2012)

That was by and large my understanding of things as well ... and my goal

but i keep reading from people on here ( some very succesful peeps) who are saying this method is flawed?

Plus i only have a gravel base as i did not plan this tank! it kinda just happened, and i think one of the key elements is a good substrate, im wondering which route to take now?

plough on or little and often


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## geaves (30 Mar 2012)

somethingfishy said:
			
		

> That was by and large my understanding of things as well ... and my goal
> 
> but i keep reading from people on here ( some very succesful peeps) who are saying this method is flawed?
> 
> ...



I think it's only flawed if you don't get the balance right between plant mass and fish, tbh, this is an observation   I've read your journal, along with the pic's, personally I would add loads more plants before adding to your fish stock, if you dose ferts continue with that on a weekly basis so that the plants become established do a 20% weekly water change and monitor......you may find you can begin to reduce that and add extra fish on a small scale.
But whilst a big tank 'needs' more fish it's getting the balance right...but the external filter will help with that.


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## George Farmer (30 Mar 2012)

Hi there,

In general terms water changes are encouraged in carbon-enriched aquaria and discouraged in non-carbon enriched aquaria.

By carbon-enriched we mean CO2 injection and/or liquid carbon fertilisation, usually with regular macro and micronutrient additions.

The need for water changes is to dilute the waste organic matter produced by the plants, fish, bacteria etc. The water changes therefore help reduce algae. 

In a non-CO2 tank the water changes can induce fluctuating CO2 levels that are known to promote algae growth. Plant growth is slower, so waste production is reduced, and the requirement for water changes is lessened. Sensible fish stocking in non-CO2 planted tanks is important, for this reason, as the plants may not be able to deal with the nutrients produced from fish/food etc.

I recommend reading up on non-CO2 methods for more info on this technique.

In CO2-enriched tanks, the more water changes the better. I rarely change less than 50% per week  in any of my aquarium that have CO2 injection.  Consideration for expense, waste, and maintenance times need to be considered, of course.  

In larger aquariums less water, or less frequent water changes can be done, due to the simple dilutions of waste in larger volumes (providing fish stocking is sensible). Mark Evans' latest creation is a great example of this.

The biggest point to note is that the higher energy your aquarium i.e. high lighting, high nutrient dosing, high CO2, high plant biomass etc. the more water changes will need to be carried out.

Another point to note is that water changes are only a part of the jigsaw. Other maintenance practices are also essential such as filter cleaning, substrate maintenance, pruning, glass cleaning etc.  All these "small" husbandary factors add up to make for a successful and trouble-free planted aquarium.

So in summary, to answer your question, the definitive answer is that it depends on the system you are running.

I hope that helps.

Cheers,
George


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## geaves (30 Mar 2012)

George Farmer said:
			
		

> Hi there,
> 
> Consideration for expense, waste, and maintenance times need to be considered,
> So in summary, to answer your question, the definitive answer is that it depends on the system you are running.
> ...



Thanks for your input.

Expense was one of the reasons I have chose to go non C02, I am on metered water and a hose pipe ban will come into force soon, what I have done is to purchase 2 x 80ltr plastic dustbins to save the water from the initial water changes, one of which is already full.

But I am finding the learning curve is far greater than I expected, but the more I put into it the more I shall hopefully get out.

Geoff


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## somethingfishy (30 Mar 2012)

Thanks george

I have been reading a fair bit which i think is part of my problem  
especially d.walstad's book, i need a scientific dictionary to get me through most of the paragraphs

touch wood i have been relatively ok so far even though i think i have to few plants and too many fish! 
which im working on.

I was just really suprised to read in a couple of recent journals people saying that the lack of weekly plus water changes is a no no even in a low tech tank? 

Sorry it must get thrustrating people like me asking so many questions, god help the forum if i ever go hi tech!

my tank husbandry i feel is good (i even enjoy it) just the water change issue? 
I had read that a daily very small water change could be good? now this is a stab in the dark from me but would that be ok , in that the daily 10% change would induce a steady albeit very small c02 into the tank? Because it was stated after x amount of time the water would become very poor if i only did bi/tri monthly changes?

I dont want to get a few more months in and hit a brick wall (although i probably will   ) 
the composition of my tank is poor anyway but thats what ive got now so im just keen to learn as much as i can from this first attempt
thanks for your time dave
im a shoe in for the annoying noob of the month


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## geaves (30 Mar 2012)

somethingfishy said:
			
		

> I have been reading a fair bit which i think is part of my problem
> especially d.walstad's book, i need a scientific dictionary to get me through most of the paragraphs



Have you read this


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## awtong (31 Mar 2012)

In my low tech 450l sand bottomed tank I do fortnightly water changes of around 20-25%.  I clean the Fx5 monthly.  I have a fairly high fish load as I have said before with plecs, congo's and a few other fish.  The tank is now fairly heavily stocked with easy to grow plants e.g crypts, anubias, vallis and apongeton.  I suffer from minimal spot algae on the glass that I clean at water change time.  I have no BBA that I can see but I do have two siamese algae eaters so they will eat any small tufts that I get.  No CO2 is added and the only ferts I use are root tabs.

This system just works for me but was developed for the health of the fish when I started years ago.  I deliberately researched and chose easy to grow plants that would enhance the look of the tank.

Andy


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## dw1305 (31 Mar 2012)

Hi all,
Definitely have water changes. 





> I think it's only flawed if you don't get the balance right between plant mass and fish, tbh, this is an observation


 I agree with this in theory, it is theoretically possible to have a perfect balanced system, the problem is that in practice it is very difficult, to the extent of being virtually impossible in the long term, unless you have a very low bio-load and a huge volume of water.

Having kept fish and worked with landfill leachate, which is just "uber polluted" tank water, I'm convinced that water changes are essential, partially because they give you  lot more "wriggle room" and stability. I use small frequent water changes with rain-water, although I don't see any reason why larger water changes with tap water wouldn't work. If you did do large water changes with tap water, I would let it stand before use to warm up and out-gas excess CO2 and chlorine.

Having said that I remain unconvinced by the "fluctuating CO2 levels" argument, as I'm fairly sure that you will have greater fluctuations in CO2 levels naturally during the diurnal "lights on/lights off" cycle (due to the effects of photosynthesis).

Have a look at this thread for some more details: <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=19013&start=20>

cheers Darrel


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## somethingfishy (1 Apr 2012)

Thanks for your reply Darrel

That was one of the threads that confused me in the first place 

My tank was not initially set up in the walstad mould ... no substrate, too many fish and not enough plants (im planting alot more now). Considering it says expert next to your name, im gonna get back to my weekly water changes. To be honest i will feel happier for it too.

I know there is no constant so to speak of; but how often and what percentage do you do your water changes?

And sorry to go from a to z but would you reccomend ro? I cant see me ever taking the co2 route but i would like to do everything possible to run a good lowtech

thanks for your time
dave


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## dw1305 (2 Apr 2012)

Hi all,


> Considering it says expert next to your name, im gonna get back to my weekly water changes


I wouldn't take any notice of the expert bit, it is a bit like Rincewind's hat saying "_Wizzard_" in the works of Terry Pratchett, but I definitely recommend water changes.


> I know there is no constant so to speak of; but how often and what percentage do you do your water changes?


 I do about 10% a day on tanks over about 50 litre  and proportionately more on smaller ones. I use 6 pint milk cartons, so these are just under 3.5 litre, a 2' (60cm) gets x2, and smaller tanks get x1.  I use rain-water I draw off the day before, and this allows it to warm up over night.

If I've got a fry tank, I use water out of the main tank for the water change, but I still do the same, even if this means a 100% water change.

If I'm away for a couple of weeks I just change more water when I get back for 3 or 4 days, and then back to 10% a day.  The tanks in the lab. I change less water in, but they are very lightly stocked. I do the same 2x milk cartons of rain-water week days, but  the fish aren't fed or water changed over the weekend. 

I don't regularly feed any of the plants, but when I do, I use the "duckweed index". Index details are here, as you can see I've used it for a while and I've also been trying to persuade other fish keepers (including the non-planted type) that it is a valid technique: 

<http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=14400>, 
<http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=18073>, 
<http://www.britishcichlid.org.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=32126>, 
<http://www.plecoplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8254&page=4> 
& <http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=26791&start=20>



> ....... would you reccomend ro? I cant see me ever taking the co2 route but i would like to do everything possible to run a good lowtech


Probably not, if you go down the small regular water change route you can ignore chloramine etc. and the high NPK levels of a lot of our water is irrelevant in the planted tank, it will just make your plants grow more quickly. 

The only reason for using RO would be that it allows you to keep and breed a much wider variety of fish. A lot of the fish that are really well suited to low tech planted tanks, like Apistogramma & Dicrossus spp., most small Anabantoid fish, Pencil fish, a lot of Killies etc. don't do well in very hard water.

cheers Darrel


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## somethingfishy (2 Apr 2012)

I think a planted tank would make a great discussion at the unseen university and Rincewind would be well served by his instincts, to run away 

thanks for your help, i enjoyed reading all of those links, i have replanted and added to the left hand side of my tank and im really pleased and for the first time i think im getting closer to a better balance of plants to fish.

I would thin the fish out a bit but catching fish in a planted tank is something beyond my skills

I intend to increase the frequency of water changes and to lower the volume. I will also be keeping a close eye on the frogbit in my tank and will try to dose my ferts by what they tell me. light shade bad and dark good 

My only concern now is my lack of a substrate apart from gravel is this something i should worry about? 
Remember seeing one of your posts on how to cultivate live food which is something that really interests me, i will try to find it 

thanks for your help Darrel


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## plantbrain (3 Apr 2012)

I would argue in favor the duckweed index for non CO2 methods myself.

It's valid and frankly: practical. That is an overriding factor for most hobbyists, around 90% or more I'd say.
If you do water changes, then smaller frequent ones seem wiser also, there's just no need to go high NPK dosing because the growth is NOT also, correspondingly high, the focus is slower sustainable growth indices.

Faster the growth, in general, more light/CO2/ferts, less growth=> less light/CO2/ferts.

Some folks wanna use high light, then not add CO2, or they want to add not enough CO2, and then go super lean on ferts. This idea does not fully allow the plants to maximize the energy and the resources available. If you want to reduce growth/hassle/pruning etc, plant choices......and less of everything is a wise approach. DIY Soil/ADA Aqua soil etc offers a simple long term supply of ferts also, and this is good no matter which method is chosen.


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## geaves (3 Apr 2012)

Thanks to Dave for asking if there is a definitive answer, something I have always wanted to know, I have bookmarked this for future reference.
Particularly interested in Darrel's 'Duckweed Index' as it's something I could put into practice on my current set up whilst acquiring the necessary bits and pieces for the next tank (which is currently awaiting attention) all I have to do is to get some Limnobium and some muslin to strain the rain water, tried the tights, don't seem quite fine enough.

Geoff.


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## geaves (3 Apr 2012)

:idea:  As a footnote to this thread, would it be possible for a mod or perhaps Darrel   to put together the 'Duckweed Index' in one place as they seem to be spread across a couple of threads.......just a suggestion.

Geoff


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## Tim Harrison (3 Apr 2012)

Hi in terms of definitive answers it all boils down to the time money and energy you are willing to invest to achieve your desired goal. I use a relatively low energy technique which achieves pretty vigorous plant growth without the use of CO2. If you want to know more check out my tutorial by following the link below to Zen and an Introduction to the Art of Underwater Gardening with Soil Substrate.


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## somethingfishy (3 Apr 2012)

I remember reading this article soon after i had set my tank up ... and i feel the same now as i did then, which is why did i not see this before!!! haha I started to find alot more out about a planted tank just past the point of no return 

My next set up which will be a while from now will 100% have a soil substrate, will just keep pushing on with my plain old gravel 

Should change my journal name to 'my learning tank' 

When the day comes for a second tank i will be rereading your article a couple of times cause it really does seem to cover all the bases 

thanks dave


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## Tim Harrison (3 Apr 2012)

It's a work in progress and I keep adding to it as I learn more myself, I guess that is what is so appealing about this hobby (obsession) there is always so much more for the enquiring mind to discover.


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## somethingfishy (16 Apr 2012)

hope this helps drooke


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