# Are they Coldwater/Temperate or Tropical ?



## dean (8 Feb 2021)

Temperature 
This is the thing that I see lots of people putting others down for and I’ve seen it here today too 

Probably 90% of freshwater fish sold in your lfs are farm bred in ponds by breeders in tropical country’s such as Thailand, Singapore, Malaysia and other Asian countries (the rest are probably wild caught fish and not all shops stock these fish) 

So therefore they are all tropical fish 
Even the goldfish and koi 

That’s the fact 
Doesn’t matter where their ancestors came from if they were born in Thailand they are Thai tropical fish 
The breeders do not chill the water 
They do not use anything other than what’s comes out of the garden hose 

In my view it’s a kind of fish racism to call a thai goldfish a coldwater fish 
We wouldn’t stand for it if a person was called an African or worse if they were born in the uk but Nigeria was the home of their ancestors 

So now why is everyone so happy to jump in and comment that a goldfish shouldn’t be kept at 25c or Zebra Danios are a temperate species ? 

Yes their ancestors may of lived in certain water conditions and temperature but the fish we buy are not from their original habitat 

So people who buy tropical goldfish and put them in unheated aquaria (this includes shops too) are not keeping the fish in the conditions they were born in !
Do people have lots of trouble keeping fancy tropical goldfish in unheated aquaria ?
Yes they do, bloat and swim bladder are a common problem and amongst the remedies listed is to raise the temperature!

So let’s stop this pointless bickering based on the wrong facts, 
Celestial Pearl Danios do not need to be kept at 22c 
Goldfish do not need to be kept in unheated aquaria or put out into cold ponds 

And the other thing is keeping goldfish in tropical temperatures shortens their life ! 
Temperature effects metabolism, growth rates etc and I’m sure living 10 years plus In a heated home is much happier and less stressful than living 12 years in a cold tank with the associated health problems commonly seen 

If you go to Thailand you will see “coldwater” species like goldfish being kept in homes with silver sharks, Angelfish even Discus and you will hear stupid dumb tourists pointing and saying how wicked it is 

A fish born in a tropical country is a tropical fish used to 25c water temperatures or higher 
Just the same as a person born in England is English and has the right to a UK passport 

As the saying goes 
“A little knowledge is far more dangerous than having no knowledge” 

Rant over 



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## Wookii (8 Feb 2021)

Interesting thoughts here, I know you like to rattle the ‘debate’ cage @dean 

The question I would have to add is (and it is a genuine question); at what point do the environmental requirements influenced by a fish’s rearing supersede those established by its genetic evolution?


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## Nick potts (8 Feb 2021)

dean said:


> Temperature
> This is the thing that I see lots of people putting others down for and I’ve seen it here today too
> 
> Probably 90% of freshwater fish sold in your lfs are farm bred in ponds by breeders in tropical country’s such as Thailand, Singapore, Malaysia and other Asian countries (the rest are probably wild caught fish and not all shops stock these fish)


This part is true.


dean said:


> So therefore they are all tropical fish
> Even the goldfish and koi
> 
> That’s the fact


No, it isn't, it's a temperate/cold water species bred in a tropical country



dean said:


> In my view it’s a kind of fish racism to call a thai goldfish a coldwater fish
> We wouldn’t stand for it if a person was called an African or worse if they were born in the uk but Nigeria was the home of their ancestors


Totally different in so many ways, but first of all, people are people, we are all the same species and have not evolved like many animals to thrive in certain temperatures or environments (we have, but it's a very broad range and is mostly down to our ability to use tools and build shelter etc), The fish you are talking about are all different species with different environmental requirements that they have evolved to live in over millions of years.



dean said:


> Yes their ancestors may of lived in certain water conditions and temperature but the fish we buy are not from their original habitat


I don't know enough about evolution or genetics to answer this, but I don't think these animals are far enough removed to have evolved new habitat requirements.



dean said:


> If you go to Thailand you will see “coldwater” species like goldfish being kept in homes with silver sharks, Angelfish even Discus and you will hear stupid dumb tourists pointing and saying how wicked it is
> 
> A fish born in a tropical country is a tropical fish used to 25c water temperatures or higher
> Just the same as a person born in England is English and has the right to a UK passport


Nothing stopping you adding goldfish to 29c water, and I am sure they will survive, but this doesn't mean they are now born/evolved to thrive in that environment, and being born somewhere how doesn't either.

Hopefully, someone with a science background can help answer more completely


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## dean (8 Feb 2021)

These fish haven’t recently been taken to Thailand (Goldfish certainly haven’t) 
They have been there a very long time generation after generation

The term coldwater merely means it can survive at low temperatures for a prolonged period it doesn’t necessarily mean it has to be kept at low temperatures to prosper 


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## Nick potts (8 Feb 2021)

dean said:


> These fish haven’t recently been taken to Thailand (Goldfish certainly haven’t)
> They have been there a very long time generation after generation


That is true, but removing an animal from its natural habitat and breeding it somewhere else does not change its evolution, at least not on the time scales we are talking about. I do believe they can adapt to different temperatures, but that doesn't change what they are. 



dean said:


> The term coldwater merely means it can survive at low temperatures for a prolonged period it doesn’t necessarily mean it has to be kept at low temperatures to prosper



I think you are miss understanding what people mean when they assign these animals terms such as coldwater, tropical, brackish etc. These animals are found in there natural habitat in cold water, brackish water etc, this is what they have developed to survive in and removing them and putting them in a different environment where they survive, does not then mean they are not coldwater fish any more.

Of course, a lot of the animals we keep have a wide range of parameters they might encounter in the wild, so are very adaptable.


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## mort (9 Feb 2021)

The hypothesis that just because the fish have been bred at such high temperatures means this is the optimal temperature for these fish to be kept at is flawed I'm afraid. A few generations can't fight evolution and although the temperature range might be greater than we consider normal it doesn't mean that the fish will thrive longterm under higher temperatures. 
Fluctuating temperatures are natural, it creates cycles of spawning rather than all year round breeding (that's if the fish arent being spawned with hormones) which puts a higher strain on the body. Increased metabolism and growth rates aren't always beneficial unless you want to sell the fish on quicker.

We can manipulate the water fish live in in many ways. There was school girl in the US who proved than lionfish can live in near freshwater but that doesn't make them a brakish species. They are still marine and goldfish are still a cold water fish because they don't magically appear in tropical waters unless someone puts them there. This is a case of arguing people's descriptions of the preferred parameters vs man manipulating those parameters for profit. I do get what you are saying, it can be annoying when people suggest "oh you are keeping them at 1c to high, no wonder you are having problems" but year round elevated temperatures aren't natural for fish and we can't fight mother nature.


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## mort (9 Feb 2021)

dean said:


> These fish haven’t recently been taken to Thailand (Goldfish certainly haven’t)
> They have been there a very long time generation after generation
> 
> The term coldwater merely means it can survive at low temperatures for a prolonged period it doesn’t necessarily mean it has to be kept at low temperatures to prosper
> ...



With regard to goldfish, fancy goldfish in particular, then yes they need warmer conditions but only because they have been manipulated so much by man that they simply wouldn't survive in the wild. This isn't the case for most of the species we keep that are closer to wild type fish, if not still wild fish.  
There is a comic description in geology, a fubarite, which describes what we have done to many of our natural species to a point where they need to be mollycoddled.


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## castle (9 Feb 2021)

Mort kind of hit the nail on the head.

But as I have recently commented somewhere about CPD's and their requirements and you've said: "Celestial Pearl Danios do not need to be kept at 22c" I would say that they really do, I wouldn't say anything if they were kept at 23/4 but I would say something when at 28/9c. I don't think it's bashing, or putting someone down when you make the comment that the community fish you've chosen are all out of sync. We all care or are interested enough in this hobby to be on a public forum, expect some empassioned responses. CPD also respond well to staggered changes, so start at room temperature, rise upto 25 over summer, and back down to room temperature over winter.

I also see goldfish as a bad example, that fish will survive a nuclear winter. It could - without much research -  be an easy example of how all fish are best suited to the environment they were raised/born in. There are studies on this though, and basically as temperature rises (I think they can survive in water up to 44c) their ability to figh of disease declines, suggesting the temperature is compromising their system. These goldfish are fish that are 1000s of generations removed, but they still have tolerances. A Goldfish's best temp? it's hard to say.

Just google "a study into goldfish temperature" or something and you'll see a lot of experiments.


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## Maf 2500 (9 Feb 2021)

Yeah, goldfish are naturally adapted to handle a very wide range of temperatures so are not really the ideal example of a true "coldwater" fish, whatever that may be. Native range of Carassius auratus is said to be Southern China, many parts of which are sub-tropical, other parts will freeze in winter. Add in 2000 years of farming for food and 1000+ years of keeping as ornamentals and not really representative of most wild fish species that have much narrower requirements.


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## alto (10 Feb 2021)

dean said:


> So let’s stop this pointless bickering based on the wrong facts,


So if I keep my S vaillanti at 10*C and they all die within a few days, I can go back to the shop and demand a refund for the sick fish they sold me!
Excellent News 
(can I use you as a reference - I just know those misinformed shop people are going to insist I kept the fish incorrectly)

Then there’s the S selatenensis that arrived in pH 7.8 water @ 900 TDS and ~16*C (direct from the exporting fish farm), so I guess matching those water parameters will ensure no losses over the first few days, and fish will continue to thrive for several years


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## alto (11 Feb 2021)

@dean 

Sure you must have some advice re the S selatenensis ... obviously the low temp is a shipping artefact but the pH and TDS  and GH 180 ppm (limit of my test kit and I suspect added salt contributed to the high TDS) were real
So do I maintain these water parameters for best survival?
Or go back to what I’d consider “natural parameters” for these fish?

FWIW another shipment from this same supplier had the S selatenensis in pH 6.5, KH 40ppm, GH 30 - 60ppm


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## dean (11 Feb 2021)

alto said:


> @dean
> 
> Sure you must have some advice re the S selatenensis ... obviously the low temp is a shipping artefact but the pH and TDS and GH 180 ppm (limit of my test kit and I suspect added salt contributed to the high TDS) were real
> So do I maintain these water parameters for best survival?
> ...



These are the water parameters after being shipped 

Adding salt to the water when shipping fish is a common practise 

It’s nothing to do with where they originated from 

I was discussing only temperature not water conditions of farmed fish not wild caught ones

I chose goldfish as it’s the most iconic “Coldwater” fish that we probably started with as a child 
It is probably the most abused fish too 

There are many species we label as Coldwater or Temperature but they are farm bred in tropical climates 


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## alto (12 Feb 2021)

dean said:


> These are the water parameters after being shipped
> 
> Adding salt to the water when shipping fish is a common practise


I’m well aware of this and that’s not the question I asked - which was a serious query ... disappointed that after sounding so certain in your initial post, you’re now evasive 

I suspect these are wild caught fish as they are fairly skittish but sick fish will present similarly (so that’s a poor observation on which to base any conclusion)

Note there are also reports of farm bred fish of this species (I’ve definitely seen farm bred S osphromenoides in local shops) 




dean said:


> I was discussing only temperature not water conditions of farmed fish not wild caught ones


But are these particular S selatenensis wild caught or farm bred? 
And if they’ve been maintained for several months in the water conditions in which they were shipped (omitting the TDS as I suspect that reflects salt addition), how should they be maintained now?

And from the original post


dean said:


> Yes their ancestors may of lived in certain water conditions and temperature but the fish we buy are not from their original habitat


This sounds like water parameters are part of your declaration  


Disclaimer
the exporting farm consistently reports general water conditions in which most fish _might_ be kept (I say _might_ as when I test bag water parameters they range from similar to substantially different)


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## dean (12 Feb 2021)

@alto 
I do not understand what you want answers to 

Your questions about how to keep your chocolate gourami is baffling to me as it has nothing to do with having “Coldwater” fish from tropical countries

They are tropical species being imported from a tropical country 

No one is suggesting you keep fish at the temperature or in the water conditions that they arrive in after being shipped 

The debate is 
Are “coldwater” species line bred in a tropical country at tropical temperatures not actually a tropical fish now ? 

Thai Fish farms generally only use water from their garden hoses to fill breeding & rearing ponds 
So if fish originated from another country and in the wild they had completely different water parameters but now breed in thai tap water are they to be kept like they were by the breeder or should they be kept in the original water parameters where their ancestors evolved ? 


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## Nick potts (12 Feb 2021)

dean said:


> The debate is
> Are “coldwater” species line bred in a tropical country at tropical temperatures not actually a tropical fish now ?



I am sticking with no, while they have been bred in warm countries for a long time, i don't believe it to be long enough to change there biology 


dean said:


> Thai Fish farms generally only use water from their garden hoses to fill breeding & rearing ponds
> So if fish originated from another country and in the wild they had completely different water parameters but now breed in thai tap water are they to be kept like they were by the breeder or should they be kept in the original water parameters where their ancestors evolved ?



I see what you are getting at, but because an animal will breed in a certain habitat/climate does not mean they are adapted to it.

You can breed elephants in Devon but they are still a tropical animal with adaptations for tropical weather, the same is true of most animals, they have adapted to thrive in niche environments and conditions etc


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## alto (13 Feb 2021)

dean said:


> I do not understand what you want answers to


You made some pretty strong statements that rather than looking to websites such as Seriously Fish, Fish Base, scientific papers profiling particular species, we should base our fish keeping upon country of shipment origin and how those fish were kept while there

I’m not sure what you based your generalizations upon, but you intimated quite specific knowledge of Asian fish farms - certainly more specific fishkeeping practises than I’ve managed to glean online (or via email requests with the shipping farm vendor - which response I’m quite certain is just a general “let’s keep our fish this way” rather than reflecting the actual maintenance conditions of the fish I’ve received ... of course I’m also assuming that fish are shipped in essentially tank/vat water with IAL and sometimes salt/acryflavine/methylene blue etc added)

As for my specific query regarding, S selatenensis, it was an honest request for your opinion on “best management” of these fish
This is the second time I’ve been able to source these fish
A year or so earlier I managed to purchase 2 lots of 10ea fish from 2 different shops (though fish were from the same Asian export farm), one shop handed me the (shipping) bag of S selatenensis (I’d requested 20, they received 10), the other shop caught the fish from their “chocolate gourami” tank (which I knew would be an issue as fish had already been kept for 3-4 days with obviously ill S osphromenoides) - and as expected, I lost all fish from this group within 2 weeks (from what I suspect is an internal bacterial infection re previous experiences with Sphaerichthys sp.)

The batch I’d received in the shipping bag (and obviously kept separately from the second group) I treated with Formalin (Hikari brand) for external parasites (it’s my experience that Sphaerichthys sp tolerate this medication well  and respond positively - improved activity, appetite, behaviour) and moved to their prepared tank after 3 weeks quarantine.
I did lose a couple during the first week but these were obviously weaker fish, note both groups of S selatenensis  were somewhat emaciated, inactive, faded and initially refused food 
While I did manage to keep what seemed healthy S selatenensis for several months, I eventually lost them one by one (again to what I think is an internal bacterial pathogen re symptoms).

Based upon my assumption that these were wild caught fish, I’d kept fish in tap water that is pH ~6, KH 0-1, GH 1-2, 25/26*C 

So perhaps this time - based upon your adamant opening statements - following different water parameters guidelines would support a more successful outcome ... 

So my query as to how YOU would recommend keeping S selatenensis- that came in from an Asian farm???
(though at this point I’m pretty certain you’ll continue to sidestep)




dean said:


> Are “coldwater” species line bred in a tropical country at tropical temperatures not actually a tropical fish now ?


Was it though, while you focused on goldfish, you also brought in Celestial Pearl Danio and Zebra Danio so perhaps you’ll allow there is _some_ confusion


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## Mr.Shenanagins (13 Feb 2021)

I think the wise Peter Griffen of Quahog had an excellent point of view on this one...


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## mort (13 Feb 2021)

dean said:


> The debate is
> Are “coldwater” species line bred in a tropical country at tropical temperatures not actually a tropical fish now ?
> 
> Thai Fish farms generally only use water from their garden hoses to fill breeding & rearing ponds
> ...



I think it's an interesting question and I do completely understand the point you are making, plus partially agree with respect to some species that have been captive bred for hundreds of generations but I don't think it's the same for a lot of the fish we keep. Celestial pearls for example aren't far removed from the wild, so the natural wild conditions are going to be a better base line for their care. Does a degree or so higher impact them, probably not but if they are used to a fluctuating temperature throughout the year it's likely a cooler rest period will benefit them greatly.


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## dean (14 Feb 2021)

@alto 

Sorry about the confusion 

Wild caught fish are worlds away from farm bred stock 

I expect your fish were wild caught as the numbers available were very limited 

All the aquarist can do is to match the water parameters and habitat to the best of their ability to those of the fish’s origin 

Wild fish are usually collected by locals who then sell them on to traders who in turn sell them to an exporter 
During this time of changing owners and locations the fish are stressed and losses occur plus they will come into contact with fish from other areas and this can mean that they can pick up diseases 

I can only suggest that next time you try them To treat them for Worms, Internal & external parasites as standard then unless you have a microscope to see if they are carrying any other diseases all you can do is closely monitor them for early signs 
Or the other alternative is to treat them for all possible diseases 

Sorry it’s a bit vague but it’s impossible to say what any wild caught fish may carry with them when they get to your home 

If you want a specific wild species I would suggest using the dreaded Facebook and find a transhipper you can delivery fish to your area 
Ask them if they know who can supply you with species X then in no time at all you will be able to either talk directly to the catcher or the trader who has bought them from the catcher 

The transhipper can them arrange to import them and deliver them to you 

It will probably cost you more per fish but the fish should be in much better condition when you receive them, usually they will be individually packed too 


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## dean (14 Feb 2021)

Ps 
If you use FB 
Look up Hermanus Haryanto he is an exporting transhipper in Jakarta, Indonesia he will be able to help you find them 

Or drop me a pm and I’ll send you his contact details or I may be able to find you a catcher 


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