# Best t5 tubes thoughts



## Lee77 (27 Feb 2018)

Looking at replacing my t5 tubes. iQuatics 4 x 39w tube light unit. 
16" above substrate level
Tropica soil 
Pressurised co2
Dosing macros micros
Growing different plants easy to demanding some do well some don't. Seem to be losing a lot of lower leaves on stems.

Wondering what your thoughts are on the best t5 tubes / combos out there for good plant growth.


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## ceg4048 (28 Feb 2018)

Lee77 said:


> Seem to be losing a lot of lower leaves on stems.


That means you are using too much light and that your CO2 and flow or distribution techniques are inadequate.
Saying that you use pressurized CO2 means nothing as an estimated 95% of all problems incurred in pressurized CO2 tanks are actually due to poorly implemented CO2.
There is an entire set of procedures that have been developed to help optimize the efficacy of CO2.

"Demanding" plants are demanding because they demand better CO2 techniques, not because they demand more light.
This is a fact that many hobbyists completely gloss over to the detriment of the plants and animals in the tank.

There is no such thing as "best T5 bulb for plant growth". Any T5 bulb you use will be fine and none will work better than any other.
The problem with T5 and other bulbs is that hobbyists tend to use too much light and then when their plants melt into oblivion they are then quick to offer ridiculous excuses such as macro  or micro poisoning. 
Best should be considered as what is best for you to look at.

If you are using 4 bulbs and are killing you plants with kindness, then it would be a good idea to disable two of the bulbs until you can sort out the problems with CO2/flow/distribution. Losing lower leaves is one of the first signs of impending serious problems.

Cheers,


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## Lee77 (28 Feb 2018)

Currently injecting co2 through an inline atomiser.
Tank is 180 litres using a jbl 1501 external with the inlet that comes with the filter which is 2" under the waters surface. 
Have you any suggestions on how I can improve the flow / distribution of co2 around the tank ? 
I think the filter is more than sufficient for the size of tank. 
I can see the co2 bubbles flowing around the tank and plants swaying in the flow. 
Thankyou for your response.


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## foxfish (28 Feb 2018)

You still did not say if you are using all 4 bulbs? I ran a 180l tank with two 39w T5s for a few years.
I found the light sufficient to grow any plants I tried & they all became beautiful algae free specimens....


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## Lee77 (28 Feb 2018)

I've taken your advice and reduced the lighting. 
Sometimes I think it can be very misleading when you read of plants that require high light, so immediately you assume I need as much light as possible. This I now know is not the case. 
Just been reading through some old posts on here about kh. 
My kh is 4 
I've got a ph probe so I'm going to take some readings and see what drop in ph I get. 
What would you expect for a kh of 4? 
Thankyou


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## Lee77 (28 Feb 2018)

Hi foxfish, yes I was using all 4 bulbs but now have reduced to 2. 
Thanks


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## AverageWhiteBloke (28 Feb 2018)

Lee77 said:


> What would you expect for a kh of 4?



You can expect anything mate as the PH probe will measure any acids in the tank as well as co2 (which is also acidic) Test the water prior to injecting co2 and aim for 1ph unit drop by the time the lights come on and try and maintain that ph drop until the lights go off. For example if your ph is 7.2 before lights aim for 6.2.


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## Lee77 (28 Feb 2018)




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## Lee77 (28 Feb 2018)

This is my tank as it looks now


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## AverageWhiteBloke (28 Feb 2018)

Looking good mate  as Clive pointed out though and with all though plants maybe co2 is struggling to get to the bottom of the plants. Hard to tell off the pics where the outlet is, is it a spray bar? The drop checker is also at the top where there tends to be more co2 on its way out of the system. You would get a more accurate reading getting it lower down in the tank in a place where you think flow is poor. If you're good there chances are you should be elsewhere.


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## Lee77 (28 Feb 2018)

Thankyou .. the inlet is in the back left corner.


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## Lee77 (28 Feb 2018)

Sorry the outlet


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## Lee77 (28 Feb 2018)

Thinking of elongating the slot ??


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## AverageWhiteBloke (28 Feb 2018)

Could you attach a spray bar to that and attach it along the back wall? Seems like currently that outlet is pushing water along the top level. With your drop checker up at that level as well its probably giving you high co2 readings but down at the substrate level the co2 could actually be quite low. Put the DC about 100mm off the gravel furthest away from the out let and see what you get. The surface skimmer is pushing towards the front as well not really giving its full potential. Failing putting a spray bar on the outlet maybe try the surface skimmer on the side wall next to the out let and have both of them pushing water left to right at high and low level.

Turning the lights down as you have will certainly help. If you have low co2 down the bottom of the tank and high lighting that's possibly why the plants are ditching lower leaves in favour of ones up in the co2 rich layer at the top. Regarding lighting, other than brightness and how many lights the colour spectrum doesn't matter. People tend to go for ones around the 6500k area of the spectrum purely because they make greens look greener and more natural. Higher up the spectrum the lights above 6500k they tender to be very white looking an unnatural. You can make plants look a lot healthier by having the right spectrum but they will grow all the same regardless.


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## ian_m (28 Feb 2018)

I tied my drop checker to a pebble with short length of string, so I could move the drop checker (and pebble) around the tank. I was really surprised I could find places in the bottom of the tank where the drop checker remained blue, despite being green when located on the top front of the tank. Adding a 3200l/hr Koralia sorted that.

Also you filtration/water turn over rate is not really enough for 180l tank size. The rough rule of thumb is filter needs to have a 10x tank volume flow rate. JBL1500 is 1400l/hr, less than 1800l/hr.

If your JBL1501 is the newer type, remove the foam (F3) from the two filter trays and replace with 1/3 full of ceramic balls/media. JBL's is call it Cermec, there are plenty of other types. This will improve the flow no end.

Next get a full width spray bar to really push the water around, see my video below.

Add a power head, I have a 3200l/hr Koralia.


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## Lee77 (28 Feb 2018)

Firstly I'd just like to thank you for the advice, I really appreciate it. 

I did have a spray bar on for quite a while with the same results as I'm getting now, which is why I changed it. 

I've fitted an elbow to the skimmer to try and push the water around more at lower levels and dropped the Dc to 100mm from substrate level the furthest area away from the outlet. 

The co2 bubbles seem to be getting to all areas, will just have to wait now. 
If what I've done works do you think my stems will regrow their lower leaves? 
Or is it new plants ?
Thanks again.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (28 Feb 2018)

Lee77 said:


> If what I've done works do you think my stems will regrow their lower leaves?



They could eventually mate but best bet would probably be cut the growing tips off and replant the heads. As Ian said, rule of thumb is 10x turnover but you could add in a pump to help with circulation. Best practice would be a spray bar along the back wall and keep on top of trimming plants to prevent the flow going over them.

Apologies for the quickly knocked up pic but something like this is what you are after taken from side view with spray bar on back wall.


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## Lee77 (28 Feb 2018)

I do have another jbl 901 filter on another tank thinking about upgrading this to a 1901 as its a big tank which I keep cichlids. 
I then could put the 901 on the 180L with a spray bar or even 2? which will improve the turnover/circulation.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (28 Feb 2018)

Sound like a plan brother. Broadly speaking the more water movement the better. It's all good and well injecting co2 but you need to get it down to the right places.


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## Lee77 (28 Feb 2018)

New filter ordered. 
Again I would like to Thankyou for all the advice.
I will post updates in the coming weeks. 
Cheers Lee.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (28 Feb 2018)

Yeah, keep us informed. Your tank looks in good shape as it is so a little bit of tweaking with your co2 injection and delivery there's some good things coming here.


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## ian_m (28 Feb 2018)

If using two filters with CO2 injectors you have to arrange it like this.


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## Lee77 (1 Mar 2018)

Thanks Ian I will be doing this at a later date when the wallet allows ! 
2 filters, 1 diffuser for now. 
Thankyou.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (1 Mar 2018)

Are you getting the bigger filter? Maybe worth your while putting the big filter on this tank and the two smaller ones on the cichlid tank. You may find you get better/even co2 distribution if the co2 is only getting brought in off one filter. The setup Ian shows above, if you could imaging doing that with only one inline diffuser you can see that half of the tank won't be getting good co2. If you go down the route of 2 filters it may be in your interests to have a diffuser on the tank rather than inline maybe?


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## Lee77 (1 Mar 2018)

I see what you mean mate yes ordered another filter yesterday. 
I've just come in from work took a ph reading this morning at 5:30 it was 6.93
At 4 pm it's only 6.29 so I'm not getting the 1.0 drop the co2 has been on since 10:30 lights on at 13:30.
I take it im not getting good co2 diffusion ?
I'm using an inline diffuser from co2 supermarket


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## Lee77 (1 Mar 2018)

Thinking of 2 of these in tank diffusers one in each bottom corner on the back wall. What's your thoughts ?


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## ceg4048 (1 Mar 2018)

Hello,
          There is no point performing haphazard measuring and planning changes based on the results. You'll need to dedicate time and patience to optimizing your methods. In-line devices are generally more effective than in-tank devices. The only reason I could think of where the reverse is true would be if the inlet spud of your in-line device has a smaller diameter than your filter outlet spud or if the filter return line is somehow restricted.

You need to step back and take a deep breath. Whatever method you used to get the tank to the state is is in the photo you showed in post number 8 is clearly valid, so I don't see any need to start dismantling things.

Thanks become victims of their own success. You could easily perform some pruning and free up some space for flow and that alone would be a good solution.

If you don't want to do that then you simply need to find a day you can dedicate to experimenting with the injection rate so that you get a good pH drop by lights on but that does not continue to saturate the water with so much CO2 that you cause discomfort to the fish. That will fine tune the CO2. Clean the filter and remove some media if it is chock full of media. That will improve your flow rate. Usually, only small changes are required to support continued growth and health.

Cheers,


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## AverageWhiteBloke (2 Mar 2018)

ceg4048 said:


> Whatever method you used to get the tank to the state is is in the photo you showed in post number 8 is clearly valid



I totally agree, the guy was intending buying a filter anyway from what I can make out which won't harm any but I wouldn't be shelling out thinking he has to. The tank is tidy at this point, far better than many I've seen so I think a little bit of tweaking and trimming is all it needs. If he's getting the filter anyway I would go with the bigger filter and existing inline diffuser. Now the DC is lower down in the column if he works to that with some more realistic readings of co2 levels lower down in that tank I can see this curing the leaf loss at the bottom of the plants.


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## Lee77 (3 Mar 2018)

Just a quick update guys. 
Secondary filter now on. 
2 spray bars one on top of the other.
Only one inline diffuser injecting co2 on the lower spray bar. 
Noticeable increase in flow co2 bubbles now hiting the front glass and being pushed to rear of tank. 
I've been moving the Dc around the tank to check for dead spots 100mm from substrate. I think the 2 front corners are not bad but not as good as they could be, think i may have to fit a power head/circ pump. 
Still not getting a 1.0 drop even after turning on the co2 by an hour early so now on 4 hours before lights on. I'm around 2 bubbles a second. 
Maybe increase bubble count? 
I did try to upload a video but won't let me and fotos you can't really see the flow/bubbles. 

Cheers Lee.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (3 Mar 2018)

Any pics? I wouldn't worry too much over the 1ph drop. Its one of those luxuries in life. Nice on the holiday brochure but I wouldn't like to live there. If you can you can, I couldn't get near a 1ph drop without upsetting some of my fish so just settle for whatever works for you and keep it constant.


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## Edvet (3 Mar 2018)

The 1 point drop is necessitated by high light, lowering lightlevels will  lower the need for that.


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