# Spraybars and Circulation Pumps



## Greenview (14 Jul 2011)

I have a 180l tank with an Eheim 2217 and a 1600lph Hydor pump. The flow is good on the left of the tank where the circ pimp is, but not so good on the right. I have tried extending the spray bars for the filter but the flow rate drops off too much and am now considering other options. I guess that a second filter with spraybars on the right side of the tank is the best option but it is a little expensive. As an alternative do you think it is possible to connect an Eheim circulation pump up to a separate spray bar? That way circulation would happen along all the back wall of the tank and it will not cost a great deal. 

Thanks


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## Bobtastic (14 Jul 2011)

Without seeing you current configuration I can only guess that you have the spray bar coming into the tank from the left and the pump in that same corner? I believe that you get slightly better flow from the start of the spray bar than the far end. So I would assume that it would be best to put the pump at that end to add to the slower flow.


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## ceg4048 (14 Jul 2011)

Greenview said:
			
		

> .. I have tried extending the spray bars for the filter but the flow rate drops off too much and am now considering other options..


Hello,
    To be 100% accurate, the flow rate does not decrease as a result of the spraybar extension. It is the velocity of the streams that decreases. The mass of water exiting the bar per second remains the same. To improve this exit velocity an an extended bar requires a pump or filter with a higher mass flow rating. The best (and most expensive) solution of course is to buy a more powerful filter. Hooking up a stronger pump to a separate bar is a possible solution, but that means having another ugly contraption inside the tank. You could just return to the original length and add a Koralia mounted on that side to supplement the spraybar output.

Cheers,


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## SuperWen (14 Jul 2011)

I never use spraybar on all my canister, only use single output

Single output or lilypipe makes better water flow and co2/nutrient distribution. When intake and outlet put at the same side (let say at the left front corner) and the diffuser at the opposite side (right front corner), the water circulation will be flow from left front -> right front -> right back -> left back -> and suck into inlet at right front again (anticlockwise flow if we look from top). There is no dead spot with this water circulation


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## Greenview (14 Jul 2011)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Greenview said:
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Thanks for the info. I have only had the tank running for 2 weeks but am learning fast with the help here. I hoped that the longer spraybar would get the water moving on the right side of the tank even if it meant that the velocity on the left dropped, but the tradeoff has not been worth it. I will follow your (and Bob's) advice and shorten the spraybar and place the Koralia on the right. 

I realised that the flow was actually a problem when I found some some brown algae developing where the flow is the least. This has mainly been due to sub-optimal CO2—I cut it back far too much when introducing fish a few days ago because the drop checker was too close to yellow (the plants were great until that point). I have increased the CO2 and hope that this will will sort things out. I have just begun to daily dose with ferts (and will post in that section for advice) but think that the flow could also use some attention. Thinking ahead, I realise that as the plants get bigger my flow deficiencies will be more critical. 

Do you think I really need another filter to go with the Eheim 2217 (and Koralia 1600)? I can afford an additional Eheim 2215 (possibly a second 2217). Or is that not necessary? Should I get a second circulation pump or do I just need to experiment with the kit I have at present.

Thanks.


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## ceg4048 (15 Jul 2011)

SuperWen said:
			
		

> ..Single output or lilypipe makes better water flow and co2/nutrient distribution. When intake and outlet put at the same side (let say at the left front corner) and the diffuser at the opposite side (right front corner), the water circulation will be flow from left front -> right front -> right back -> left back -> and suck into inlet at right front again (anticlockwise flow if we look from top). There is no dead spot with this water circulation


No, sorry, this is completely untrue. Flow patterns are much more effective when using spraybars distributed along the length of the back wall. The larger the tank, the more important this becomes. In small to medium tanks the differences are not as obvious. Of course, this also assumes high flow rates and well placed bars. Also, the inlet locations are largely irrelevant because they do not affect the flow patterns nearly as much as the effluent does.

If you've never used spraybars then how can you be so sure that they are ineffective? It took a while to understand the flow patterns as a function of position, size and orientation. Spraybars place in the wrong locations, or oriented poorly or used with insufficient flow energy will definitely be ineffective, but when used properly they produce superior results when compared to the single point effluent technique.

Cheers,

Cheers,


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## SuperWen (15 Jul 2011)

@ ceg4048: I used spraybar at the first time I know aquascape. BGA always appear on the deadspot, so I decide not to use it anymore. Since I use single outlet, BGA never appears.

If you've never used single output or lilypipe then how can you be so sure that they are ineffective? 

 If spraybar is the effective way to get best circulation, why amano never use spraybar..??


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## chilled84 (15 Jul 2011)

SuperWen said:
			
		

> @ ceg4048: I used spraybar at the first time I know aquascape. BGA always appear on the deadspot, so I decide not to use it anymore. Since I use single outlet, BGA never appears.
> 
> If you've never used single output or lilypipe then how can you be so sure that they are ineffective?
> 
> If spraybar is the effective way to get best circulation, why amano never use spraybar..??



Amano uses HUGE filters. Like ceg said, Use a more powerfull filter.


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## SuperWen (15 Jul 2011)

chilled84 said:
			
		

> Amano uses HUGE filters. Like ceg said, Use a more powerfull filter.


Yes, that is the point. Like i'm using two 2217 in 30G, 2215 in 12G, and 2213 in 5G


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## chilled84 (15 Jul 2011)

SuperWen said:
			
		

> chilled84 said:
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Can we have some pictures of these setups? Would be interesting to see.


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## SuperWen (15 Jul 2011)

chilled84 said:
			
		

> Can we have some pictures of these setups? Would be interesting to see.


You can see my gallery link on my signature below


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## Greenview (15 Jul 2011)

SuperWen, those are super tanks. If I could grow one a fraction as good as them I would be very pleased. One day, maybe, one day.

However I am not sold on Lily Pipes, I can see the logic of spray bars. I have followed Clive's advice and flow is a lot better, thanks. But I still wonder whether I should do more. Maybe I got the wrong external filter a month ago, but I am stuck with it now, and replacing it is not an option at present. I was wondering if those with more experience could let me know if I should be OK with what I have got or whether the chances are that I am going to buy something else within the month. If that is the case, then I would prefer to do it now. If so is it better to get a second filter (even though it will be just the classic 2215 or 2217) or another Hydor Koralia.

Thanks guys


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## ceg4048 (15 Jul 2011)

SuperWen said:
			
		

> @ ceg4048: I used spraybar at the first time I know aquascape. BGA always appear on the deadspot, so I decide not to use it anymore. Since I use single outlet, BGA never appears.
> 
> If you've never used single output or lilypipe then how can you be so sure that they are ineffective?


 I did not say that I've never used single point pipe outlets. In fact, I've used them for years and I've compared their performance with spraybars. So I know exactly how the single point configuration works. You are the one who said that you never used spraybars. This was the opening statement of your post==>





			
				SuperWen said:
			
		

> I never use spraybar on all my canister, only use single output


Now you say that actually you have used spraybars before and that you got BGA. Was the spraybar the only thing that changed? How did you mount the bars? As i said, if you use the bars incorrectly you will have poor performance.There are thousands of people who get BGA in their tanks. Some are using spraybars and some are using single point. 

Likewise, there are thousands of people who don't get BGA. Some of these people are using spraybars and others are using single point. So, just using spraybars, or just using single point does not really tell you the whole story. Your choice of configuration is only one factor in growth performance. There are many other factors. As stated earlier If you have strong enough movement then it won't really matter that much.



			
				SuperWen said:
			
		

> If spraybar is the effective way to get best circulation, why amano never use spraybar..??


I would only be able to guess at the reasons because I cannot read his mind. Based on the comments from other excellent aquascapers, it seems that they typically do not like the look of a proper spraybar installation. Visually and aesthetically, the spraybar is not the best. To make matters worse, manufactures produce spraybar designs almost as an afterthought, with very ugly materials and colors. The lilypipe configuration is so much more elegant, especially when executing a minimalist aqauscape. It's just not very artistic to stick a long green pole on the back of the tank.

Just because there is a best way of doing something it does not mean that people will automatically do it. If there is a less effective way of doing something, and if that way satisfies some other objective then that is what the person might do.

When a beginner asks for advice on how to execute a concept, I formulate a response based on best practice, most efficient, least expensive and most effective. It is not my intent at that point to consider what Amano does, because that kind of response does not help the beginner. There are lots of things that Amano does or or lots of products that he uses that are completely irrelevant to the way that some people live or to the way that some run their tanks. It is a very foolish policy to do something just because Amano does it, or just because I do it, or because you do it. There are some things I do that I would not suggest to others because they do not live the way I do. There must be a context when describing the way that someone does something, and it must be clear what the advantages are and what the disadvantages are. It is a much better policy to understand the science of a product or technique and to learn to apply that technology to your particular application in a way that satisfies ALL you goals.

Cheers,


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## SuperWen (15 Jul 2011)

Maybe all of your post above are right, but I dont really care which way the best. All my concern are plants health and nice layout, is that an aquascape priority right? And I think I'm on the right track to there
I never had a problem with a single output, you never had a problem with spraybar. So I'll do my way and you do yours. Sorry no offence

And sorry my english is bad and cause lot of misunderstanding.
Fyi english is not my mother language, even not my third language


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## SuperWen (15 Jul 2011)

I found the article discussed about spraybar vs single output before read this thread.
This is the link: http://www.aquascapingworld.com/forum/e ... y-bar.html
There are good discussion between the member using their experience and analysis,


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## Greenview (18 Jul 2011)

Greenview said:
			
		

> I have followed Clive's advice and flow is a lot better, thanks. But I still wonder whether I should do more. Maybe I got the wrong external filter a month ago, but I am stuck with it now, and replacing it is not an option at present. I was wondering if those with more experience could let me know if I should be OK with what I have got or whether the chances are that I am going to buy something else within the month. If that is the case, then I would prefer to do it now. If so is it better to get a second filter (even though it will be just the classic 2215 or 2217) or another Hydor Koralia.
> 
> Thanks guys



Anyone got thoughts on this?
Thanks


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## Alastair (18 Jul 2011)

If you feel you can stretch to another 2217 then I'd do that. The benefit of that also is the fact there could be a possibility one may fail, and you cam also clean them alternately. You've then got spray bars covering the length of the back wall, then should you feel flue is still lacking slightly, then re introduce your powerhead in-between the bars :0)


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## Greenview (20 Jul 2011)

Thanks, Alastair
Thought that I would have to get a second filter as the flow on the far right of the aquarium is still less than it could be. A second spray bar will distribute flow far better so another 2217 on order.


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## Alastair (20 Jul 2011)

Greenview said:
			
		

> Thanks, Alastair
> Thought that I would have to get a second filter as the flow on the far right of the aquarium is still less than it could be. A second spray bar will distribute flow far better so another 2217 on order.


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## Charlieh (24 Jul 2011)

Hi Greenview ! Sorry only just seen this post. Have you considered an external circulation pump which can be hidden in your cabinet and connected directly to a spraybar (or any other outlet) ? I use an eheim compact + 2000 modified as a needle wheel for CO2 - the CO2 is introduced before the pump and smashed into a mist by the impeller; no back pressure or flow reduction issues and the mist can be controlled by adjusting pump flow (lower flow = more dwell time = finer mist). I've tried most methods of CO2 diffusion and found the needle wheel to be the simplest and most effective.

And just to contribute to the outlet type argument I use a lily pipe as a return from my filter as I have found this affects flow rate the least (see below) and I use a spraybar from the eheim as CO2 distribution seems to be better this way.



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> To be 100% accurate, the flow rate does not decrease as a result of the spraybar extension. It is the velocity of the streams that decreases. The mass of water exiting the bar per second remains the same. To improve this exit velocity an an extended bar requires a pump or filter with a higher mass flow rating.


This is not quite true - in an ideal world with no friction the flow would remain unchanged through a spraybar but the velocity increases to fit the same amount of water through the smaller dimension; this is why you get jets of water through the smaller holes (it's traveling faster). However, in reality the small spraybar holes present quite a lot of resistance to the flow which therefore reduces compared to an equivalent sized single hole (open pipe). Hence the need for a larger pump to overcome the resistance and maintain flow.

Hope this contributes lol


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## foxfish (24 Jul 2011)

Hi Charlieh, i would agree about the needle wheel pump but i am confused about your spray bar comment!
You say the flow would be less if you extend the spray bar & add more holes! I don't quite see how this would happen, surely this would offer less restriction and if anything increase the actual flow rate?


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## Greenview (24 Jul 2011)

Thanks charlieh. Yes, I had wondered if you could do something like that; it Seemed logical to me, just was not sure of the hardware. But my original post got lost in the debate that followed and I bought another filter instead. It cost a little more than a pump but I do have more biological filtration that way. The flow is now far better distributed with spraybars along the back wall of the tank.


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## Charlieh (24 Jul 2011)

Hi Foxfish. What I am saying is that the resistance to flow of a number of small holes will always be greater than the resistance of a single hole with the same cross sectional area of all the small holes added together - primarily because of the increased turbulence at each hole. The smaller the holes the higher the resistance and adding more and more can't increase the overall flow beyond what is being supplied by the pump. It's the same principal to placing a grill across a fan or an air duct - fine grid = more noise and less flow.


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