# TMC Sig 600 Twinstar 600s Sump build



## Something Fishy (26 Nov 2018)

Hi guys

Started this off emersed with Cuba and mosses in pots to transfer to the branches and trim and flood soon.  Sand is half the bottom substrate and Amazonia and Powersand with Cuba the rest. Minerals added to the power sand too.

Waiting for co2 valves to arrive then will add them to NEOs in and overdose for a while and then start on EI after two weeks.

Using a sump so if anybody has experience with overflows and how to stop them dragging air through that would be awesome. I can’t seem to get the tank level with the overflow box as the water always ‘falls’ in it even after tweaking the tap and valve.

Some Stayrogen Repens in there too and Crypts, and Rotala Macrandra at the back looking dry but shooting.

Waiting to flood to add java fern and some Buce!

Feedback or tips very welcome.

Cheers guys




















Cuba overgrown needs trimming! Very shallow substrate.

Sump




Overflow




Loads of fern from Ryan - cheers dude!






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## Edvet (27 Nov 2018)

Something Fishy said:


> water always ‘falls’ in


This will drive out CO2 very heavily, so be carefull.
Sumps will almost always cause noise. A Bean animal is the most quiet way, Can;t comment on your system, don't see how it functions.


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## foxfish (27 Nov 2018)

It looks like a commercial add on overflow box and not a drilled tank?


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## Something Fishy (27 Nov 2018)

foxfish said:


> It looks like a commercial add on overflow box and not a drilled tank?



It is fox yeah - bought from a guy that makes them on eBay. Same concept as many of the other ones with the aqua pumps on top.

Just felt the level inside the tank should surely be almost he same as that falling into the box?


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## foxfish (27 Nov 2018)

I don’t know much about that style of overflow but that is a lovely carpet!
@zozo is your man I think.


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## Something Fishy (27 Nov 2018)

foxfish said:


> I don’t know much about that style of overflow but that is a lovely carpet!
> @zozo is your man I think.



Cheers Fox.

Ah ok spot on I’ll see if he can help with that then!


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## Something Fishy (28 Nov 2018)

Has anybody used the Hydor pumps in planted tanks too to add some extra flow? I was thinking of using one over the carpet as the sump and return might not be enough.


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## Edvet (28 Nov 2018)

I've used Koralia's in my 400 gallon.
Today i would look at Gyre's ( Maxspect).


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## Something Fishy (28 Nov 2018)

Edvet said:


> I've used Koralia's in my 400 gallon.
> Today i would look at Gyre's ( Maxspect).



Cheers Edvet I’ll check them out.

I like the size and footprint of the Hydors being magnetic. I was more concerned they might take in small fish or shrimp as they are purely circulatory.


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## Edvet (28 Nov 2018)

You can see them here in the back:\


FTS03032014 by Ed Prust, on Flickr


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## foxfish (28 Nov 2018)

I am sure @zozo has been playing with sump overflows?


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## Andrew Butler (28 Nov 2018)

Have you thought about abandoning the sump idea and opting for a filter? - sumps supposedly lose CO2 at a rate of knots
I've no experience of overflows added at a later date but if you don't have a drilled tank and are having problems with air before you start then maybe look at your options.
Bean animal / herbie style overflows are not possible with your overflow from what I can see.

+1 on the Gyres for moving water; they are great and magnetic also, if you are wanting the electrics out the tank then Vortech MP10 MP40 or similar are the option but there is no directional adjustability to them.


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## zozo (28 Nov 2018)

Something Fishy said:


> Using a sump so if anybody has experience with overflows and how to stop them dragging air through that would be awesome.



Never used the specific overflow you have.. But if i see correctly it's a vacuum overflow you need to prime with the tube on top that has the checkvalve to it?

Then my question is where does it drag air?

Looking at the 6th picture i see a 20mm? flexible tube running into a filter sock.. I guess that tube us connected to the overflow? And assuming the noise comes from that tube?

I suspect that tube is to long and doesn't have the capacity.. It chokes the flow and than accelerates it again creating an erratic flow patern and sometimes an edy in the last overflow compartiment making slurpinga and sucking noise..


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## zozo (28 Nov 2018)

Hard to explain in words what a picture says in a look.. 

In diagram




That open connection doesn't need to be large 1 mm is enough.. It devides the route in to seperate sections preventing it sucking a vacuum in the fall tube. That fall tube shouldn't be longer than the tanks height. Make that 2nd section of wider diameter from ridgid pvc tube.

If the tube from overflow to sump is of not enough capacity it completely fills with water.. The fall speed in it wil create that sucking slurping edy in the overflow. If you can't connect a larger diameter tube to the overflow. Deviding it in 2 sections as in the diagram is the only option you have.

I hope this explains.. 

Still could be that you have some noise of running water.. Depends on the turn over you want to force trough one overflow.

Than personal experience told me. deviding this again over 2 smaller overflows in opposite corner of the tank makes it as quite as a mouse. Plus it gives a beter flow patern in the tank with less dead spots since it drains in 2 corners instead of 1.. 

here you see that open connection in picture.. I also use vacuum overflows in this tank.



Its a 25mm fall tube into a 32mm drain tube to the sump..

Absolutely quite as a mouse.. But i use 2, 1 of these in each corner.

2x
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/nano-overflow.51607/#post-508353


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## Something Fishy (29 Nov 2018)

Cheers zozo very in-depth reply haha!

I’ll try and put more up about this on here but you’re right yeah it’s a simple overflow with the prime on the top then it supposedly doesn’t lose prime after as air shouldn’t be trapped in the top.

It’s actually pretty silent already, so apologies if I mislead on that front - but it seems to draw air in the tank side box as the water falls into the compartment - but the outer box always needs to be lower doesn’t it slightly? The one way valve on the top should let the air out but it doesn’t seem to be doing that well at all. I can use an aqua lifter pump on that so not the end of the world, I wanted to fix the drop in overflow level mostly for the co2 loss during any gas off.

The comb that the water flows over is very near the top of the tank which I feel may contribute to the level difference? Should the overflow water line be level on the tank side with the top of the tank almost?

Having to reset the whole thing every time
It needs cleaning and sorting is a bit of a downside I must say. 

Circulation pumps look good!


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## zozo (29 Nov 2018)

Something Fishy said:


> It’s actually pretty silent already, so apologies if I mislead on that front


Never mind, i always get carried away a little when i read the word sump and jump to conclusions. Mainly i experience sumps and overflows often beeing under rated due to simple gravity contradicting design failures.



Something Fishy said:


> but it seems to draw air in the tank side box as the water falls into the compartment - but the outer box always needs to be lower doesn’t it slightly?



A Vacuum bridge works with the principle of communicating vessels


Thus gravirty should always equal out both levels.. In your case i guess the level difference (LD) is only there when the pump is running and the in overflow is situated higher than the out overfllow. Or your turnover is about at its max limit..




After the pump stops, level in both vessels are going to be equal and create a water lock.

If the vacuumed chamber is collecting air it might just be a leaking check valve. Simply remove it, vacuum the chamber, fold the tube so it kinks close, take a tie rap or a rubber band to keep it kinked.. Or ask your lady if she still has such a <small parfum test tube> i bet she does or can get them shortly. Than take the cap from this to plug the priming tube with it.


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## Something Fishy (5 Dec 2018)

zozo said:


> Never mind, i always get carried away a little when i read the word sump and jump to conclusions. Mainly i experience sumps and overflows often beeing under rated due to simple gravity contradicting design failures.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Makes sense Zozo thank you. I’ve taken a video now I’ve flooded it to try and show you what’s going on better. Not sure if the floor and or tank is dead level either which may be affecting the vacuum chamber if it’s not level.  Oddly enough too the tube has started making gurgling noises!

I got the overflow from a seller on eBay which makes units branded as deepreef? The guy has not contacted me at all so I’m lost as to how it works - but he supplied the pipe too saying it was correct for the kit?  He mentioned adjusting the tap on the tube so the flow is right and then using the valve on the back box to silence it - but the levels seem to change with the valve and tap and I never know how full the inside box needs to be - should I slow the outflow so the inside water level is equal against the overflow box?

I’ve changed the one way valve too Zozo for another one, neither seem to leak as I sucked both and they only worked one way.  Source of air is front chamber I think.  There is air in the tube now with the valve on it, I can see bubbles going in it. But they seem to be collecting just before the valve.





It was quiet last time but this time it’s noisey again. I’m not against using a sump but I have some worries now such as having to calibrate the pump and tap every time to be right, loss of co2, worry it will flood if the pump outdoes the outflow capability (only happened once when I was slowing the outflow pipe to try and level the water and t gradually over a few hours was filling the tank by a mm at a time until it overflowed! Oops.

I also fear I need an aqualifter pump to fix the air tapped in the top and ensure siphon start always. I’ve not got a big problem with this if it works?  I still fear a pipe being blocked or overflow comb which then could cause a flood. I worry but it’s quite a problem if it happens!

Here’s the video of how it’s working currently.  Flow in tank seems good but for Cuba I think I might need more.

Thanks 

Edit: it’s also much quieter and almost level when I turn down the flow on the tap. Are you saying that with a bigger tube Zozo I could leave the tap as it is? I noticed the water levels are much closer when playing with the tap but it’s impossible to know where the tap needs to be on the outflow pipe as there’s a delay in syncing with the return pump :/


 http://sendvid.com/embed/l0yeq3iw


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## Something Fishy (5 Dec 2018)

Tank update:

Flooded now, added java fern and Buce and Crypts, moss on some of the wood as experiment, and constant co2 currently to see how it sits with the sump and ensure the plants are well looked after until they adapt.

I’ve definitely got too much java fern in there as Ryan mentioned - so I will need to take
some out to avoid flow problems and masking the red plants.

Trimmed the HC Cuba and the rest seems ok - going to put the Twinstar 600s on 40% brightness as it’s flooded to avoid causing further distress to the plants. And try to avoid losing my nice Cuba carpet!!

It’s a new flood and new Amazonia - would one WC a week do still at 50%? No livestock yet!

Cheers guys
















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## Daveslaney (5 Dec 2018)

I would say you would be better with the return pipe same as you have it now but at the front of the tank, That way the flow would hit the far wall travel down where your co2 diffuser is and return across your HC carpet along the bottom. Giving your HC a good supply of co2 enriched water.


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## Kezzab (5 Dec 2018)

Given you have a sump, hide the diffuser down there next to the return pump inlet. Keeps equipment out of the tank and acts a little like a reactor.
K


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## Something Fishy (5 Dec 2018)

Daveslaney said:


> I would say you would be better with the return pipe same as you have it now but at the front of the tank, That way the flow would hit the far wall travel down where your co2 diffuser is and return across your HC carpet along the bottom. Giving your HC a good supply of co2 enriched water.



Good point Dave cheers. 

I did think the same actually and pointed it towards the diffusers already so it’s shaking it all up. I just need a suction cup so I can attach the return pipe properly to the tank.


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## zozo (5 Dec 2018)

If the tank isn't level, than at least make sure the overflow box is at the time you prime it.. Or else you can't vacuum it completely and any air in the vacuum chamber can decrease flowthrough capacity. Put a piece of cardboard under it at the lowest side to level it. Once it is primed and completely filled you can take that away again, make sure all air is out.

To explain the noise and why it runs OK for now and not tomorow.. I created a little diagram clossest to your design and try to explain. Unfortunately i can not make an animation, so try to use imagination.. 

It is actualy verry simple, the thing is you do not see it happening without clear tubing..

This is your situation. And take a look at this diagram.. You only can have noise and burbs and slurps where i wrote it down in the overflow drain box.






See the Fall Tube, that is the tube you connected to the bulkhead in the overflow drain box that leads to the sump.

Now when the pump is running both ends of this tube are under water and closed, the tube will completely fill with water..
Gravity makes this water fall through this tube into the sump.. The lenght of this tube determines how much resistance the water has to overcome to get into the sump. But it aint only resistance, all water volume in that tube has a weight, creating a suction force draging down the water volume in the waterlock from the overflow drain box. (See red line Waterlock).
The longer the route, the more volume in the tube, the more weight and drag is sucking at the top end.

There are several natural not constant factors having influence on the waters fall speed in that Fall Tube. Air pressure, dirt particlas, trapped air pockets in the tube, slime forming at the tubes wall. It is rather dynamic it can change over night.

Now yesterday it was running fine on the tipping point of it's capacity, overnight the atmospheric air pressure changes and today the tube is draining slightly faster. And it creates an edy in the drain box. It sucks in a bubble of air.

The falling water wants to drag down this air bubble.. But the air bubble is much lighter and wants to go back up.. Now you have a battle between 2 forces going on in the fall tube, falling water dragging a bubble down and the bubble says now way i want to go back up. Than there will be a trapped air bubble in the tube that doesnt want to go down and can't get out because it's surounded by dragging water. This results in restriction, the flowthrough capacity from the fall tube becomes less as long this air bubble is bouncing up and down in the tube.

Than suddenly gravity overcomes the airbubble and it is sucked through all the way down and released into the sump (Blob sound of a bubble comming up in the sump) Suddenly all restriction gone the fall speed in the tube encreases and speeds up drasticaly, so much it creates an edy again in the drain box, suddenly sucking in several air bubbles again. Slurp sound in the drain box. And now there are 3 bubbles in the tube and all starts over again, water dragging down bubbles and air bubbles fighting this force because they want to go up flow through decreases again.

All this play creates an erratic fluctuating flow through, slurping at the top end and burping at the low end in the sump. Running fine today, maybe for a week, but there comes a day it doesn't anymore. Just wait for it.. That's what you don't want, you can't rely on it.. You don't see it happen, but make the entire route from clear tube and you will see it. That's how i found out..  I understand the difficulty of imagine something you've never seen.

At one point to much trapped air in the tube can cause to much restriction and loss of capacity simply overflowing the tank. Simply because you fall tube is to long and to narrow with both ends under water and completely filled.. This tube will get dirty over time, also this changes it's capacity, not only drain capacity also it's trap bubbles capacity.

Make that fall tube route as short as possible with the least change of anyting getting trapped in it especialy air bubbles.

Go back to this post and find a cunstructional way to fix it and make a reliable drain that never traps and never stops.
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/tmc-sig-600-twinstar-600s-sump-build.55941/#post-543324


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## Something Fishy (5 Dec 2018)

zozo said:


> If the tank isn't level, than at least make sure the overflow box is at the time you prime it.. Or else you can't vacuum it completely and any air in the vacuum chamber can decrease flowthrough capacity. Put a piece of cardboard under it at the lowest side to level it. Once it is primed and completely filled you can take that away again, make sure all air is out.
> 
> To explain the noise and why it runs OK for now and not tomorow.. I created a little diagram clossest to your design and try to explain. Unfortunately i can not make an animation, so try to use imagination..
> 
> ...



This is an amazing answer Zozo so thank you. Read it thoroughly and it does make absolute sense - and actually reinforces my worry’s of it not working over time and blocking.

The tube is actually pretty short for the drain - maybe just 45cm but it’s bent and curved so I take your point.

It’s now quieter and the overflow box is more full than before so it’s not falling so far - I guess that can only be a good thing.

I think I will monitor the co2 and make a call - if I lose a lot of it to evaporation then it’s likely going to be a switch back to a filter for me to reduce the worry.

That said I do want to try this first - also if the kept the pipe(s) clean that would surely help prevent the change in flow too?

Annoying too as this was sold as a package that works, and as the seller is not responding it’s almost like he knows. A couple of others have reported issues on feedback too 


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## zozo (5 Dec 2018)

There are several ways to overcome that problem.. You have to make something so that air can get in outside the Overflow drain box.

For example the simplest solution might be, place a Y or T connector in the fall tube as close as possible bellow the box. Like in the diagram bellow.
Connect an extra piece of tube and lead it up next to the box above the water level. That will be the aeration of the tube. If a gurgling sound comes out put a little piece of filter sponge in it. This will let air through but dampens the sound. It will prevent air sucked in or getting out again via the box outlet.





That's the same thing a plumber would do if you suffer a gurgling syphon in the bathroom.
Place an aeration valve in the sewage pipe. 

That's the fun with sumps.. You have to try things..


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## Something Fishy (5 Dec 2018)

zozo said:


> There are several ways to overcome that problem.. You have to make something so that air can get in outside the Overflow drain box.
> 
> For example the simplest solution might be, place a Y or T connector in the fall tube as close as possible bellow the box. Like in the diagram bellow.
> Connect an extra piece of tube and lead it up next to the box above the water level. That will be the aeration of the tube. If a gurgling sound comes out put a little piece of filter sponge in it. This will let air through but dampens the sound. It will prevent air sucked in or getting out again via the box outlet.
> ...



That’s a good plan Zozo I like it.

There is already a kind of valve on top of the drain hole - I presume that’s what that will do right?

Sorry if my video wasn’t too clear showing that, I know it’s quite hard to see anything much.

Cheers


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## zozo (5 Dec 2018)

Something Fishy said:


> There is already a kind of valve on top of the drain hole - I presume that’s what that will do right?



No i guess not, that valve likely is to regulate the drain speed.  (Aeration valves used in sewage are inverted Check valvels, letting air in but no water out if it comes to that)


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## Something Fishy (5 Dec 2018)

Oh right only that valve doesn’t seem to do too much really?  I can sort of turn it both ways on and off and eventually the outside drain area falls and doesn’t change again after even if I use the valve.

Also noticing bubbles in the top section again with the other one way check valve on it - so it seems air is still not escaping and being trapped in the top :/ presume it’s coming from the bubbles made with the overflow 


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## Something Fishy (7 Dec 2018)

zozo said:


> No i guess not, that valve likely is to regulate the drain speed.  (Aeration valves used in sewage are inverted Check valvels, letting air in but no water out if it comes to that)



Hi Zozo

So the sump overflow seems to be working better now, but still not right and not sure how much gas off I am getting with co2 compared to say a filter.

I really like that it skims the water surface though. I also am going to need a basic top up for the sump too so it accounts for evaporation...

The little tube on the top to remove air seems to just lose the water all the time now and fills with air. Both valves I’ve tried have the same result yet when I blow through the valve they are both only one way.  Not sure what the problem is but I think I’m going to need an aqualifter pump? I guess using a syphon on that tube to the sump will cause too much water draw out?

Cheers 


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## zozo (7 Dec 2018)

I have experienced the same thing with those small checkvalves.. Blowing air it is closed but under atmospheric counter pressure it leaks.
This is just because the counter pressure created by the volume weight of the water in the vacuum chamber is rather tiny, it can barely be called pressure.
imagine 1000cm water colum is 1 bar pressure regardles the volume, then 10cm vacuum water column is 0.010 bar pressure that needs to close the valve. A tiny speck of dirt can make it leak while it seems closed when you blow 0.5 bar into it. 

What you could try to do to check the checkvalve, is extend the tube it is on, vacuum it and hang the checkvalve under water into the tank. It simply can't suck air if its under water  then it suck back water into the vacuum chamber. If that solves the problem, you need to keep trying checkvalves till you find one that works. Or forget about them and plug the hose permanently.

If nothing helps, there must be a leak somewhere at the box itself.

Than, with a clear acrylic box, you might deveop biofilm and algae grwoth in the vacuum chamber. This can photosynthesize and produce oxygen, that slowly accumelates. But not in a day or 2, more likely after weeks, by then it needs a cleaning.


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## Something Fishy (7 Dec 2018)

zozo said:


> I have experienced the same thing with those small checkvalves.. Blowing air it is closed but under atmospheric counter pressure it leaks.
> This is just because the counter pressure created by the volume weight of the water in the vacuum chamber is rather tiny, it can barely be called pressure.
> imagine 1000cm water colum is 1 bar pressure regardles the volume, then 10cm vacuum water column is 0.010 bar pressure that needs to close the valve. A tiny speck of dirt can make it leak while it seems closed when you blow 0.5 bar into it.
> 
> ...



That makes sense Zozo and I’d thought of something similar myself with the check valve. My worry was with the tube bent, the air that comes out through it would have to go down to escape right? Rather than up and out the valve as it’s meant to?

Do you think making a syphon with the tube would draw too much water out?


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## zozo (7 Dec 2018)

Suck it completely full with water up to the checkvalve, than hang the checkvalve into the water. In the tank itself or in the box overflow, doesn't mater as long as it can't suck air. If it sucks back water, it'll be so tiny amount yuo wont notice a thing and you overflow stays vacuumed.  Than you know the checkvalve is trash. 

And if checkvalves keep driving you nuts.. Do this and tug it away behind the box.


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## Something Fishy (7 Dec 2018)

zozo said:


> Suck it completely full with water up to the checkvalve, than hang the checkvalve into the water. In the tank itself or in the box overflow, doesn't mater as long as it can't suck air. If it sucks back water, it'll be so tiny amount yuo wont notice a thing and you overflow stays vacuumed.  Than you know the checkvalve is trash.
> 
> And if checkvalves keep driving you nuts.. Do this and tug it away behind the box.
> View attachment 119932



Spot on Zozo will try that.

Sorry to keep on but you think that would then release any trapped air still if the air escapes through the tube like it does now and has to go downwards rather than rise up and go out the valve?

I managed to get it working last night with a drip syphon the other side of the check valve but if the overflow stopped it would lose suction I know. 

The guy that made this told me it could auto restart in a power cut with the tube and valve on top as any air left would go back up the tube and escape at the top.  I fear that’s unlikely in reality without a pump as many online have said in forums I’ve checked.

Really to alleviate some of the problems you told me the other day about gurgling and pipe resistance, a variable return sump pump is vital so you can vary the speed for the sump via the pump rather than the tube when fully open right? I don’t like relying on the tap position of the drain every time as it’s a faff to find it again every time I start the sump 

Thanks for your help Zozo you’ve been a gem. Still want to give this sump a go as I like many aspects.

You have any auto top ups on yours? 


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## zozo (7 Dec 2018)

Something Fishy said:


> Sorry to keep on but you think that would then release any trapped air still if the air escapes through the tube like it does now and has to go downwards rather than rise up and go out the valve?



I'm not sure what you mean.. Do you think that the prime tube with checkvalve is to vent out escapeded air? Because it isn't, than you probably do not yet understand that vacuum principle.  The check valve is meant for to suck all air out of the overflow vacuum chamber and keep it filled with water, the checkvalve should prevent air getting back in to preserve the vacuum. If you pull off the prime tube the vacuum chamber will empty because air comes in. If the tube or valve has a leak, the vacuum slowly will drain and no longer be vacuum and stop overflowing. Thus this tube shoulb be 100% air tight, nothing in and nothing out. Closing the tube permanently with a plug is most secure, the checkvalve hase no further function once the chamber is vacuum and filled with water. Thus: "It is not meant to release trapped air, it's to suck air out and prevent air from going back in."  Thus if it contains traped air, it will never escape by itslef you have to suck it out again via the prime tube and close it again.

As long as this overflow is completely filled up, it will always auto restart after a power outage. 

The overflow has a maximum flow through, obviously you can and should only regulate it down with trimming down the pumps flow.

No i do not have an auto top off.. It stands 4 steps away from the first tap in the house.


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## Something Fishy (7 Dec 2018)

zozo said:


> I'm not sure what you mean.. Do you think that the prime tube with checkvalve is to vent out escapeded air? Because it isn't, than you probably do not yet understand that vacuum principle.  The check valve is meant for to suck all air out of the overflow vacuum chamber and keep it filled with water, the checkvalve should prevent air getting back in to preserve the vacuum. If you pull off the prime tube the vacuum chamber will empty because air comes in. If the tube or valve has a leak, the vacuum slowly will drain and no longer be vacuum and stop overflowing. Thus this tube shoulb be 100% air tight, nothing in and nothing out. Closing the tube permanently with a plug is most secure, the checkvalve hase no further function once the chamber is vacuum and filled with water. Thus: "It is not meant to release trapped air, it's to suck air out and prevent air from going back in."  Thus if it contains traped air, it will never escape by itslef you have to suck it out again via the prime tube and close it again.
> 
> As long as this overflow is completely filled up, it will always auto restart after a power outage.
> 
> ...



That’s fair Zozo, I think I will look into the auto top up! Alas today as well this amazingly well made overflow has just had the valve outlet node snap on me! Acrylic and the tube sticks to it sooo tightly that it wouldn’t come off at all so it snapped instead.  Even now I’ve had to pry it out.

I see Zozo that makes sense, and not fully my misunderstanding as that’s what the maker informed me. I did see bubbles escaping up the tube as well that were being syphoned; and they built up in the tube! But they were not escaping so eventually they filled the tube with air - so I presumed it would be to allow the air to get out that makes its way into the syphon chamber from being sucked in? Otherwise the air will build up inside right?

If that is the case Zozo then I think I will using a dosing pump and attach that to it for sure!  What’s to stop just gluing a check valve straight on the top of this overflow box and using that and cutting out the need for a tube? As long as it locks one way.


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## Something Fishy (8 Dec 2018)

zozo said:


> I'm not sure what you mean.. Do you think that the prime tube with checkvalve is to vent out escapeded air? Because it isn't, than you probably do not yet understand that vacuum principle.  The check valve is meant for to suck all air out of the overflow vacuum chamber and keep it filled with water, the checkvalve should prevent air getting back in to preserve the vacuum. If you pull off the prime tube the vacuum chamber will empty because air comes in. If the tube or valve has a leak, the vacuum slowly will drain and no longer be vacuum and stop overflowing. Thus this tube shoulb be 100% air tight, nothing in and nothing out. Closing the tube permanently with a plug is most secure, the checkvalve hase no further function once the chamber is vacuum and filled with water. Thus: "It is not meant to release trapped air, it's to suck air out and prevent air from going back in."  Thus if it contains traped air, it will never escape by itslef you have to suck it out again via the prime tube and close it again.
> 
> As long as this overflow is completely filled up, it will always auto restart after a power outage.
> 
> ...



Hi Zozo

So I tried something else and added a tube  to the other side with water in to see what I expected.

The air from the top of the sump has been going up the tube and repacking the water. The valve though is stopping the air getting out but still locking the water the other side.

A few bubbles made it though but gradually they’ve gone up the tube overnight and pushed out all the water as air is lighter.

This is the best I can show - tube below the valve is full of air from bubbles going up it and the top tube is still locked and full of water from the valve(another new valve again): 



I think I will rig up a dosing box and use one of the dosers to draw air out each hour.  As long as the overflow is drawing in tiny air bubbles tank side, there will always be a build up at the top of the w bend.

You can actually see a couple that got through the valve to escape:




Air build up inside the W overflow just overnight





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## zozo (8 Dec 2018)

If the bubbles in the vacuum chamber are caused by water splashing into the box during overflowing and sucking up small air bubbles.. Than slow that water down, for example take a piece of coarse filter sponge that is as big as the box panel bellow the comb. And place that under the comb, than the water will not splash down but trickle down in and over the sponge.


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## Something Fishy (9 Dec 2018)

zozo said:


> If the bubbles in the vacuum chamber are caused by water splashing into the box during overflowing and sucking up small air bubbles.. Than slow that water down, for example take a piece of coarse filter sponge that is as big as the box panel bellow the comb. And place that under the comb, than the water will not splash down but trickle down in and over the sponge.



Yeah that’s a pretty good idea actually Zozo. Are you saying in theory you can’t image air going through this? I just can’t see how tiny bubbles wouldn’t keep going in and build up eventually?

Started seeing mobile growing on the woods too - please tell me this will go or I can get rid another way than H2o2? I’ve wrapped the moss now that’s all ha.

This came before too I’m sure it’s not algae? It looks like a mound and occurred out of water too. The other piece of wood has a clearer version in just two days. 

Thanks guys










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## Edvet (9 Dec 2018)

It wil go.


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## Something Fishy (9 Dec 2018)

Edvet said:


> It wil go.



Awesome. No need to scrub it Edvet? I cleaned it off before already but the tank was dry again for two months so it’s come back. Black hair like appearance on the darker wood but not BBA I don’t think


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## Something Fishy (9 Dec 2018)

Also - keep this foreign traveller or ditch him? Haha






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## zozo (9 Dec 2018)

Something Fishy said:


> Also - keep this foreign traveller or ditch him? Haha
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lookes like a lovely little cute <Physella acuta>..


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## Something Fishy (10 Dec 2018)

zozo said:


> Lookes like a lovely little cute <Physella acuta>..



As long as they don’t fill my tank up Zozo! Haha. Doesn’t seem to be eating much algae either! Sump proved a doddle to do a water change with so I’m kinda happy so far.

Not sure on the co2 evaporation but sponge in the overflow was a good shout to prevent bubble and degassing!


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## Something Fishy (19 Dec 2018)

zozo said:


> Lookes like a lovely little cute <Physella acuta>..



Tank updates coming! All cycled and readings at 0 - so added a few Amanos and Ottos, and a shoal of Rummy Nose 

One of the Ottos went over the weir sadly and was caught in the sponge long enough not to make it - grr!

I noticed that the overflow box on the back at one point was level with the tank water on the inside side - do you know what causes that level to change? It stayed at the top for a while but now it’s dropped again by about an inch both sides.

Do you know if the valve on the outside box affects the levels at all Zozo or anybody else? I think this combined with the dosing pump on the top and I’m starting to trust this a bit more. I am seeing a lot of degassing as the drop into the box from the inside has increase.

I presume the level in the sump makes no difference? 

I do need a top up box as the sump level in winter time now is dropping a fair bit!


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## Something Fishy (19 Dec 2018)

Updates with Rummy nose Amanos Ottos added, Super Red on the right added too and some more Buce I grabbed when I stopped by Aqua Eseentials.


















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## zozo (19 Dec 2018)

Something Fishy said:


> Do you know if the valve on the outside box affects the levels at all



DO you have a decent picture of tne complete overflow, or a link to the vendors site?.. Without it it, anybody can only guess on build air castles.. 



Something Fishy said:


> I presume the level in the sump makes no difference?



Depends  at one point the pump will run in a too low level.. Depends again on the pump, if it doesn't have an overheat protection it wont run dry for long.


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## Something Fishy (19 Dec 2018)

zozo said:


> DO you have a decent picture of tne complete overflow, or a link to the vendors site?.. Without it it, anybody can only guess on build air castles..
> 
> 
> 
> Depends  at one point the pump will run in a too low level.. Depends again on the pump, if it doesn't have an overheat protection it wont run dry for long.



That’s the one I got Zozo - he also added a valve to the top of the outer drain tube you can see there.

https://deepreef.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=59&product_id=50

I’m just trying to ascertain if the water should fall into the overflow or be level with it, I’m not sure what affects that really.

Like I say it was level before but then it gradually started to revert to ‘falling’ in again.

Cheers


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## zozo (19 Dec 2018)

I do not see any valve on the outside box..




If it is bellow the bulkhead, than it indeed regulates the downflow and if it is pumped in faster than it drains it will rise in that chamber. But if it has a valve there, than it doesn't have much usefull function. Anyway if this overflow is doing strange things it simply is running at the end of it's capacity. (That goes actualy for any type of overflow.)  Than trim your pump capacity down to make it run smooth.

I actualy do also not see any real advantage in the downward knee inside the outer box.. And the water always has to rise a bit higher than that the top of the knee to finaly flow away.

Trimming the pump is easy, put a T above it in the sump and a valve on that T, valve fully closed full power to tank, slowly open valve and some water will run back into sump and less to the tank. This way the pump is not restricted in flow it keeps running full capacity and you still can reduce waterflow to the tank and regulate it very precise..


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## Something Fishy (19 Dec 2018)

zozo said:


> I do not see any valve on the outside box..
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks Zozo - I think the knee is to silence as the valve is on top of that tube? You can turn it left or right it’s like a fine tune silencing valve.

It seems to do something but I’m not really sure what. The bit that’s baffling me the most is what causes the water level to sit at what level against the overflow flow.

So you think slowing the pump would mean the tank fills slower - but how would that affect the level against the overflow box - water filling slower but draining the same rate would mean it falls even lower right? I either increase the pump into the tank or try and slow the drain speed down a bit maybe?

It’s odd as it’s not really the speed that’s the problem because like I said at one point t was running level with the tank for a good few hours. It’s literally the level at which the sump runs that I don’t fill understand in regards to what actually makes the overflow flow assign a ‘working level’ that water naturally falls at.

With a weir - what would cause the water not to ‘fall’ - I presume simply that the water Input was slightly faster than the out so the level is a bit higher?

Sorry for all the questions but hopefully it also helps others if they try this method! I think I’d have the same problem even if my tank was drilled as it’s related the the pump in and drain out speed.

Cheers!


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## zozo (19 Dec 2018)

Ok that was not to see on the pictures.. the tube above the knee is the same as this what i posted earlier.





The air inlet and vacuum and overflow prevention...  Than te valve indeed functions as a silencer, but if yu fully close it it will prevent air from getting in and vacuum the hose. Thus it should never be closed fully.. A tiny gap is enough.. If it still makes noise plug a small piece of sponge in it to reduce it even further.


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## Something Fishy (19 Dec 2018)

zozo said:


> Ok that was not to see on the pictures.. the tube above the knee is the same as this what i posted earlier.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I had suspected as much - thanks Zozo that does make sense!

In theory in that case too - can that be used to adjust the water level for the outside box and therefore the inside too?


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## zozo (19 Dec 2018)

Something Fishy said:


> can that be used to adjust the water level for the outside box and therefore the inside too?



No... It all simply comes down to the volume capacity (flow through) of the Vacuum chamber.. There is nothing to regulate other than the volume you pump into the tank. If the overflow is acting up, it simply doesn't correspond with the amount of water you want to push through.. Thus, pump capacity doesn't correspond with drain capacity..

It all sounds very complicated vacuum here and vacuum there..  But i do not know how to explain it any differently than i already did.

Sorry..


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## Something Fishy (19 Dec 2018)

zozo said:


> No... It all simply comes down to the volume capacity (flow through) of the Vacuum chamber.. There is nothing to regulate other than the volume you pump into the tank. If the overflow is acting up, it simply doesn't correspond with the amount of water you want to push through.. Thus, pump capacity doesn't correspond with drain capacity..
> 
> It all sounds very complicated vacuum here and vacuum there..  But i do not know how to explain it any differently than i already did.
> 
> Sorry..



No not at all Zozo you’ve been a huge help for sure!

I totally see what you’re saying about the pump and the drain capacity, I just presumed that by slowing down the return pump then less water is coming into the tank - this in term would make the water level drop in the tank I presume but the amount of draw from the overflow is still the same right?  This would make the overflow water level drop further?

I am struggling to understand what would actually make the overall water level rise within the overflow itself. Logic suggests a slower drain would result in more water in the tank faster and so the level would rise on the overflow but it does rise and get level with the tank but falls again when it all stabilizes out a bit later.

Sorry if I’m being stupid here.


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## zozo (20 Dec 2018)

It has nothing to do with stuppid..  It more likely is not understanding due to lak in experience.. I started out the same when it comes to overflows, i started DIY building and experimenting and made my fair share of mistakes, almost flooding my room and burning out several pumps.. And it took me about a year pulling hair from my head with different scenarios and trying different designs and keep remodeling them to finaly understand them and get it to work properly.. This doesn't come overnight, overflows work with forces of nature, these forces are Dynamic and in terms of physics this is what can change over night. Also dynamic from constructional aspect working with it or against it, a redundand bend in the tube can have drastic effects maybe not today but tomorow you have to wait for it to happen to experience it..

It can result in a perfect running overflow today, acting up tomorow or it may take 3 weeks before it starts acting up. Than try to fix it and a few weeks later it still didn't seem to be the correct fix. Because it triggered an other event at a different location. The more you run such a system on its edge of capacity the narrower it listens to possible bottlenecks in its route.

This learning curve takes time and patience to understand and experience it's pros/cons in functionality.. 

And once you understand it, it is very easy to say it is simple. Sorry for that, because i did use the word simple a tad to often.

Anyway, try for a start to understand that your overflow even if it looks as 1 single device. It contains 3 different parts that work completely independend from eachother. It only needs to be synchronized to work properly together.

1 - your overflow box with the comb in the tank
2 - the vacuum chamber
3 - the outer box with the drain


1 - The comb box in the tank, if it has a fixed position than water will rise till it overflows. The more water you pump in the higher it will rise over this comb. If you pump in less, the water level will lower. This only if the comb box has a fixed position. If you pump in less water and you have to ability to rise the com box to give it a higher overflow level than obviously the water will rise with it. If you can not change the level of the comb box, than that is what you got and need to live with.

2 - The vacuum chamber has a fixed maximum through flow capacity it's a force of nature you can not change. The only thing that can cause restriction is blockage (dirt buildup, a wandering snail etc.). The pumps capacity should never be greater that the vacuum chambers through flow capacity. Keeping dirt buildup or anything else that can restrict flow into respect. Than it is very wise to have a tad lower pump capacity than overflow capacity.

3 - the drain, schould alway be greater than the vacuum chamber capacity. If it isn't the overflow box can overflow.

For the rest all 3 are completely independed from eachother. What ever you do with the in tank box or vacuum chamber it has no efffect on the drain capacity from the drain box and visa versa. If the drain box capacity doesn't correspond with the vacuum chambers capacity. Than it is either pump capacity is to much or the drain tube capacity to low. Than you have to change one or the other, pump in less water or make a bigger drain. There is nothng else to discuss..

That's realy all i can tell about it.. Any discussion will be only repeating the same story over again in different words.

Keep playing with it and try to change things if it doesn't work to satisfaction.. Gather experience and the Aha!! moment will come if not today than maybe in a few months.


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## Scapefu (20 Dec 2018)

Hi,

As a sump user, I can tell you that you want to a) make sure to prevent a break in the siphon tube of your overflow during a power outage, and b) you want to have a quiet overflow/sump. The first issue is managed with an air pump that will turn on and pull the air out of the siphon tube when the power comes back on. The second issue is solved by modifying your overflow to a Herbie style (as you don't have space for a Bean Animal). What you seem to have is a Durso style overflow pipe that can work but it takes work.

Good luck,

Art


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## Something Fishy (20 Dec 2018)

Scapefu said:


> Hi,
> 
> As a sump user, I can tell you that you want to a) make sure to prevent a break in the siphon tube of your overflow during a power outage, and b) you want to have a quiet overflow/sump. The first issue is managed with an air pump that will turn on and pull the air out of the siphon tube when the power comes back on. The second issue is solved by modifying your overflow to a Herbie style (as you don't have space for a Bean Animal). What you seem to have is a Durso style overflow pipe that can work but it takes work.
> 
> ...



Thanks Art

I’m on the case with the pump as I thought the same - I was going to use a doser for that pulling say once an hour.

Would I fit a Herbie in there do you think? All I really want to do is have the overflow level and tank level equal so the water does fall in and degas more than it needs to


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## Something Fishy (21 Dec 2018)

I now see about 10 snails - should I start culling them before my tank is full?


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## Something Fishy (23 Dec 2018)

Scapefu said:


> Hi,
> 
> As a sump user, I can tell you that you want to a) make sure to prevent a break in the siphon tube of your overflow during a power outage, and b) you want to have a quiet overflow/sump. The first issue is managed with an air pump that will turn on and pull the air out of the siphon tube when the power comes back on. The second issue is solved by modifying your overflow to a Herbie style (as you don't have space for a Bean Animal). What you seem to have is a Durso style overflow pipe that can work but it takes work.
> 
> ...



Hi Art / Zozo

So I’ve been fiddling with the tank water levels and made some progress.

Does the water evaporate from the actual tank as well?  Obviously once it levels at the minimum to fall into the box it won’t keep evaporating and would go from the sump.

I just figured that if water in and water out of the tank are matched then by filling the tank more I am actually raising the overall operating level right? Because that did actually make the water in the overflow level with the tank eventually and worked as I wanted before.

Since then it does seem to drop a little bit not as much as it did before.

I accept that the drain and the comb are huge factors of the levels but I thought I’d ask Incase you knew anything about that.

Cheers


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## Something Fishy (6 Jan 2019)

zozo said:


> No... It all simply comes down to the volume capacity (flow through) of the Vacuum chamber.. There is nothing to regulate other than the volume you pump into the tank. If the overflow is acting up, it simply doesn't correspond with the amount of water you want to push through.. Thus, pump capacity doesn't correspond with drain capacity..
> 
> It all sounds very complicated vacuum here and vacuum there..  But i do not know how to explain it any differently than i already did.
> 
> Sorry..



Hi Zozo

Have you had problems with Shrimps in the sump and or overflows?

I guess yours are different to mind. All my Amanos keep going in the sump but if I put a grill on the overflow that will cause resistance won’t it to the water falling out? And slow up the fall rate a bit?

I’m starting to answer some of my earlier questions above simply by playing with things, there does seem to be a ‘min-max tolerance level in the tank itself where the water can evaporate. The overflow naturally works at both due to water in and out being the same, but if I top the tank there is less ‘drop’ into the overflow box which I what I wanted.

Sadly I see now way of maintaining this without an auto top up actually filling the tank as well as the sump.

Thanks mate


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## Daveslaney (6 Jan 2019)

Don't have any experiance with overflow boxes. But dont most overflows have a ball valve on the overflow pipe to sump? If you close the ball valve slightly to decrease the flow down the overflow pipe. This will lift the water level in your overflow box and tank? And decrease the water level in your sump? Or if your pump is adjustable speed turning the pump up would have the same effect?


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## zozo (6 Jan 2019)

Something Fishy said:


> Have you had problems with Shrimps in the sump and or overflows?



No not realy, but i have custom DIY overflows with a relative fine mesh... Adult shrimp can't get in.. Occasinaly i find a cherry in the sump, from fry the gets in and than slowly grows big in the sump.



Something Fishy said:


> I’m starting to answer some of my earlier questions above simply by playing with things



That's the way to go  to get to know your system.. It takes time and trail and error.. About each system has it's own induvidual issues and things.
In principle all the same, but still little things can make it behave differently.


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## Something Fishy (6 Jan 2019)

zozo said:


> No not realy, but i have custom DIY overflows with a relative fine mesh... Adult shrimp can't get in.. Occasinaly i find a cherry in the sump, from fry the gets in and than slowly grows big in the sump.
> 
> That's the way to go  to get to know your system.. It takes time and trail and error.. About each system has it's own induvidual issues and things.
> In principle all the same, but still little things can make it behave differently.



Thanks Zozo yeah, makes sense!

I guess you’ve not used the weir type before then?  Does that sound feasible with the water level evaporating from the tank too?

I think I’ll get a fine mesh as well - do you find that adds more resistance to the flow rate and higher risk of blockages?


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## zozo (6 Jan 2019)

Something Fishy said:


> Thanks Zozo yeah, makes sense!
> 
> I guess you’ve not used the weir type before then?  Does that sound feasible with the water level evaporating from the tank too?
> 
> ...



No indeed i never used a wier type, i only used diy overflows made from tube and used excisting filter inlet baskets from canister filter. Since these go 360° round i never experienced any blockage.  I regulate the pump according the overflow capacity, i have a relative low turnover, estimated at maybe 400 l/h but don't know excatly could be tad more or less. Since its low energy its not realy that important and with floating vegitation rather better than worse.

I also experience evaporation from the tank, it's open top.. But it doesn't fluctuate in water level, it is constantly topped of from the sump. That is where the water level lowers. The only reason i can think of why water level in an aqaurium with overflow changes is erratic fluctuating overflow capacity or erratic running pump. If overflow and pump are in perfect sync, the water level in the aqaurium should stay permanently unchanged.


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## Something Fishy (17 Feb 2019)

zozo said:


> No indeed i never used a wier type, i only used diy overflows made from tube and used excisting filter inlet baskets from canister filter. Since these go 360° round i never experienced any blockage.  I regulate the pump according the overflow capacity, i have a relative low turnover, estimated at maybe 400 l/h but don't know excatly could be tad more or less. Since its low energy its not realy that important and with floating vegitation rather better than worse.
> 
> I also experience evaporation from the tank, it's open top.. But it doesn't fluctuate in water level, it is constantly topped of from the sump. That is where the water level lowers. The only reason i can think of why water level in an aqaurium with overflow changes is erratic fluctuating overflow capacity or erratic running pump. If overflow and pump are in perfect sync, the water level in the aqaurium should stay permanently unchanged.



Thanks mate sorry for delay didn’t see this. Yeah I’m perusing it but I might change to a filter eventually still as the sump benefit isn’t all the great for planted as I water change 80% weekly anyway and it’s taken up the whole cabinet - ha.

Thanks though I’ve added a gauze mesh to the overflow so it’s not getting clogged now and not sucking fish in either!


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## Something Fishy (17 Feb 2019)

Hi guys

Update on the tank.

Things progressing well but I’ve used mixed plants from sources and seen BBA and that black stuff still coming from the wood - as I’ve used moss to cover it’s all stuck and it seems the black is berried in there too, hopefully pics show what I mean.  Worms and things inside the moss too as I guess it’s blocked the flow nearer the wood.








Even spreading to the carpet 





Not sure what to do for BBA other than take out all infected plants and try and treat it externally? It seems to be just taking over and water changes water down the nutrients so the other plants won’t grow so well either and help get rid of the algae?

Also seeing some green hair algae and whiteish hair algae growing too.














Co2 constant and lime green checker, and auto dosing 2ml of all in one fertilizer which is likely not all being used right now and making algae worse? Again hard to tell.

Not sure what the best direction is.  Advice welcome, is it worth trying to spot treat the algae as others have said didn’t work that well?





The plants growing faster are less infected but java fern isn’t going to grow fast as it was all already grown when put in, and the BBA spores are all around the tank so other plants that were fine are also being infected.

Thanks




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## Jayefc1 (17 Feb 2019)

I'm no expert but 2ml of ferts don't sound any where near enough to feed those plants allowing the alge to get the better of them I dose my 45p 4ml all in one a day and I think your tank is go get than mine


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## Something Fishy (17 Feb 2019)

Jayefc1 said:


> I'm no expert but 2ml of ferts don't sound any where near enough to feed those plants allowing the alge to get the better of them I dose my 45p 4ml all in one a day and I think your tank is go get than mine



Could be Jay yeah? 

I’ve noticed using others plants isn’t great as spore are coming I from them of course.

First time too using Lush Max from eBay, recommended dose on there for my size 100l was 2.5ml so I’m only slightly under according to that :/


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## Jayefc1 (18 Feb 2019)

Does it tell you the properties of the mix ie % of N or K and that .5 a day adds up if there hungry plants not enough nutrients would stunt the growth and weaken the plants allowing the alge to move in Ive never used lush mix so don't know anything about it


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## Something Fishy (18 Feb 2019)

Jayefc1 said:


> Does it tell you the properties of the mix ie % of N or K and that .5 a day adds up if there hungry plants not enough nutrients would stunt the growth and weaken the plants allowing the alge to move in I be never used lush mix so don't know anything about it



Yeah good points.

Guys on here seem to rate it pretty highly but this one is the all in one mix.

I noticed the water was quite green during a change which looks like excess nutrients not been uptakes to me?


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## Jayefc1 (18 Feb 2019)

That could be green bust alge too that is making the water green no way 2ml in 100ltrs would change the water colour I wouldn't think


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## Something Fishy (18 Feb 2019)

Jayefc1 said:


> That could be green bust alge too that is making the water green no way 2ml in 100ltrs would change the water colour I wouldn't think



Not even from stacking over the week?

Could be right there tbh. I’ve noticed more algae and hair algae and stuff since dosing frets - but, this could be still that they are not quite enough and just helping feed algae.

The red plants etc respond fine though and mosses etc. I think the java fern being so bad and not growing fast could be helping to cause it rather than anything else.

Seeing lots of new seeds growing on the JF which indicates it’s dying in my tank?


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## Jayefc1 (18 Feb 2019)

I don't know when you think I put double in my lil 35ltr tank and it's green ferts too and the water is perfectly clear just don't add up your ferts at half the amount would turn your water off colour what clean up crew do you have how high are your lights


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## Something Fishy (18 Feb 2019)

Jayefc1 said:


> I don't know when you think I put double in my lil 35ltr tank and it's green ferts too and the water is perfectly clear just don't add up your ferts at half the amount would turn your water off colour what clean up crew do you have how high are your lights



Good point yeah.

I could be very picky in saying it’s green and it’s just noticeable that’s all compared to fresh water. Not massively green though...

My small tank has immense growth and I can tell the colour in that too so bit confused by it all really!


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## dw1305 (18 Feb 2019)

Hi all, 





Something Fishy said:


> Seeing lots of new seeds growing on the JF which indicates it’s dying in my tank?


If you mean new plants growing from the old leaf? It can be that the fronds are dying off, but  it could also be that they were emersed grown leaves or  that the fronds have sufffered some mechanical damage, or drying, all of those tend to initiate plantlet formation. Have a look at @Mick.Dk's comments in <"Why do Java Fern develop plantlets?">





Something Fishy said:


> I’ve noticed more algae and hair algae and stuff since dosing frets


That possibly suggests that lack of one of the essential plant nutrients was limiting growth before the fertilizer addition. Green algae are <"physiologically close to the green plants"> (so what is good for your plants is also good for the green algae), but will show a <"quicker response to some nutrients">, particularly ones that aren't mobile within the plant, like iron (Fe).

cheers Darrel


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## Something Fishy (27 Feb 2019)

Cheers Darrel.

This is the colour coming out currently 








Algae is better since adding Glut but still got balance issues here I think with the plants amounts and light and ferts. Maybe the frets are not being used which is why the water is green?

Carpet also not responding well.

Co2 is a bit extreme and then average on and off so maybe that is not helping either? Both my solenoids are not now turning off with the timer switches - anyone else having that problem?


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## Something Fishy (28 Feb 2019)

I’m using the Lush Max mix in there - all in one. It seems like it maybe separates in the container and maybe causing the dosing to be a bit off.

Anybody else using this?

Noticing my weeping moss that was super thick is getting thinner and most plants generally not looking that lush.


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## Something Fishy (6 Mar 2019)

So another fish today after a couple of weeks was showing signs of swimming upside down again.

Ammonia is fine after test but using ferts.

Anybody know if that might cause a problem? Fish are seeming a bit shy as well, neons are hiding and Rummy nose are mostly under the branch.


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## Kalum (6 Mar 2019)

ferts won't cause issues with fish unless you go to extremes (as in empty the whole bottle in) so i'd look elsewhere if you have fish dying (random fish now and again can be normal but a pattern obviously shows something is wrong), precautionary large water change never really goes a miss

the lush max ferts are quite similar to TNC complete but with more magnesium (x4) but nearly half Phosphate, saying that the TNC dosing for high tech is 30ml a week 

if you read up on EI dosing then you'll realise excess ferts are not your issue and i'd try 4ml daily and see how you get on


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## Something Fishy (6 Mar 2019)

Kalum said:


> ferts won't cause issues with fish unless you go to extremes (as in empty the whole bottle in) so i'd look elsewhere if you have fish dying (random fish now and again can be normal but a pattern obviously shows something is wrong), precautionary large water change never really goes a miss
> 
> the lush max ferts are quite similar to TNC complete but with more magnesium (x4) but nearly half Phosphate, saying that the TNC dosing for high tech is 30ml a week
> 
> if you read up on EI dosing then you'll realise excess ferts are not your issue and i'd try 4ml daily and see how you get on



Cheers Kalum.

I thought it was stupid really the ferts but I’m baffled what else it could be.

It’s like I’ve read online when you look at the tank and know something’s just not right. Temps are down to about 20 now but that’s not ‘low’ and I’ve had them swimming around very energetically at 18 before now too. 

I’ve noticed they hide a bit more too which is strange. I notice that bladder problem ever since I brought home Ottos and one died the day after - they other fish started to go more after that which is why I dosed the water column with anti bac and anti fungal.

It looks like the fish have the swim bladder issue when they swim around in circles and lose balance, but can’t work out if that’s due to a bacterial infection or otherwise.

I noticed one or two go about 2 weeks ago so used water treatment and thought I’d fixed it as not had anything since and done some big water changes. But last night a Rummy Nose started to swim about all over the place.

Have had a few issues with co2 being on all the time, but the drop checker doesn’t seem to get very yellow even so as I’m using a sump so oxygen should be very good.

Noticed little worms and that in the substrate and the woods I used leaked as above in pics and grew BBA - I’ve been cleaning them but they still seem ‘dirty’ nearer the middle where the moss stops circulation where it’s rooted.

Cheers


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## Something Fishy (6 Mar 2019)

You think 4ml then to try dude? I noticed it doesn’t mix that well either currently with residue at the bottom - if it’s dosing uneven amounts due to not staying mixed well then the ferts could just stay in the water column right? 

Plants need the whole lot to absorb and if wrong they could remain - and the water could be the greeny/darker colour because of that?


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## Kalum (6 Mar 2019)

Your temp is a bit on the low side and if it was me i'd bring it up to about 22deg, each temp extreme will probably make the fish a bit lethargic, co2 could also be a reason for them not being as active with some needing time to adapt in my experience so far (ottos especially)

Concentrate on doing a pH profile to get the co2 spot on and dose 4ml ferts and see how you get on, rule out 1 by 1 and you'll sort it

Try to forget about excess ferts being an issue mate as it'll just hinder you addressing the problem, many of us dose EI which is well over what you're dosing with no green water or algae issues


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## Something Fishy (6 Mar 2019)

Kalum said:


> Your temp is a bit on the low side and if it was me i'd bring it up to about 22deg, each temp extreme will probably make the fish a bit lethargic, co2 could also be a reason for them not being as active with some needing time to adapt in my experience so far (ottos especially)
> 
> Concentrate on doing a pH profile to get the co2 spot on and dose 4ml ferts and see how you get on, rule out 1 by 1 and you'll sort it
> 
> Try to forget about excess ferts being an issue mate as it'll just hinder you addressing the problem, many of us dose EI which is well over what you're dosing with no green water or algae issues



Yeah good advice mate thanks.

Temps I think have been hard to stabilise since using a sump for some reason it’s colder in the tank as it has to travel up after.

Algae colouring the water do you think or something else? I’m thinking of using another Chihiros steriliser in there anyway soon.

If co2 all fish would be struggling wouldn’t they? Like I say it doesn’t seem like the drop checker is showing much - I’m on about 2-2.5 bps on co2 and sump degasses some too.

The change in behavior is odd though and fish swimming losing balance as if ill? Fish are very skittish too the Rummys but could be the species too?

Cheers


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## Kalum (6 Mar 2019)

any changing parameters or extremes will affect the fish and not all will be as sensitive as each other, i'd just work on getting consistency with the basics first before looking elsewhere and maybe over complicating things

temp/co2/waterchanges can all affect fish health obviously so rule them out and if still not right then at least you have confidence to start looking elsewhere, and i've had the same fish in the same tank but with 2 different scapes, they behaved very different in both setups so the skittish behavior isn't a worry but the losing balance and swimming issues are (not an expert by any means on this so maybe someone else can help)

remember your wood will leach tannins and colour your water as well but is usually more brown than green


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## GreenNeedle (6 Mar 2019)

Kalum said:


> ferts won't cause issues with fish unless you go to extremes (as in empty the whole bottle in) so i'd look elsewhere if you have fish dying (random fish now and again can be normal but a pattern obviously shows something is wrong), precautionary large water change never really goes a miss
> 
> the lush max ferts are quite similar to TNC complete but with more magnesium (x4) but nearly half Phosphate, saying that the TNC dosing for high tech is 30ml a week
> 
> if you read up on EI dosing then you'll realise excess ferts are not your issue and i'd try 4ml daily and see how you get on




recommended doses on all of these ferts are usualy quite conserrvative when we are looking at fully planted tanks.

Are you dosing 2ml daily?  As stated above 2ml daily should not cause the fish any problem at all.  I would be dosing about 6ml daily in a tank like yours with CO2.

From reading the symptoms of swimming upside down, lethargic etc allied with the BBA in the tank it immediately says to me CO2!!!  Can you put a picture up from the front showing where the inflow/outflow and drop checker are.  Is the drop checker filled with dKH4 reference solution allied with Bromo blue?

Added to that IF it is CO2 then it would be strange for CO2 to affect the plants and algae to occur however........IF (not saying it is) the tank is being pumped full of CO2 to the point where fish are struggling and there is plenty of light above it may well be that the plants need a lot more than 2ml daily to keep up with the light they are receiving.

On the note of the fert separating.  Can you see through the bottom of the solution bottle?  Is there white substance there.  Is the solution kept in a dark and cool place?  How long did you initially mix it for?

I doubt the fert itself would cause green water.  I suspect it is much more likely a collection of things and the tank isn't quite dialled in.

I will keep an eye on your thread though


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## Kalum (6 Mar 2019)

ah i read the magnesium as 0.08 and not 0.8 (read the iron amount as it was right next to it). To give EI dosing TNC suggest 30ml per week hence my reference above

definitely up ferts as you're pretty low for a co2 tank imo


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## GreenNeedle (6 Mar 2019)

Kalum said:


> ah i read the magnesium as 0.08 and not 0.8 (read the iron amount as it was right next to it). To give EI dosing TNC suggest 30ml per week hence my reference above
> 
> definitely up ferts as you're pretty low for a co2 tank imo



I edited my post because I looked on TNC site and it gave different analysis numbers for Mn than the label on the bottle in the Amazon ad.  Maybe they have changed the ratios but there are differences between the bottle label and the analysis tab on their site.  for example on the bottle label pictures in Amazon, Mn (Manganese) is .118.  On their tab it is 0.018.

Basically the Lush Max is lower concentrated than the TNC in NPK and Mg but the same for traces other than iron which is slightly higher.

I suspect the .018 on the tab of the TNC website is correct and that both the Lush and TNC use the same "base" trace element mix.


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## GreenNeedle (6 Mar 2019)

Just linking to a post from @plantbrain (Tom Barr) on his site thebarrrerport r.e. Green water.  I have no experience with sump systems but maybe it could be to do with filtration or quite simply the tank being newly setup?  Text from that post here, link with full post and the whole thread below the text:



> "GW cannot be water changed away nor nutrient limited away.
> 
> UV, Diatom, Micron filter(5mic or so work well), Daphnia, blackout sort of work.
> 
> ...



https://barrreport.com/threads/green-water-help.100/#post-783

It isn't a problem I've ever encountered so I can't help you with experience of sorting it.


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## Something Fishy (6 Mar 2019)

Thanks guys I need to keep an eye out I think.

Will post a video here going over the tank setup but really can’t see anything that’s changed too much other than what I’ve said but clearly I must have done something!

I swear when it first set up the fish and tank balance was bob on.

Sump is full of sponge and media and ammonia reading 0. But fish showed signs of swim bladder disease every time - swimming around upside and circles etc. fish always been shy and I wonder if current is making them not want to swim against it, weird though they don’t go near the plants. Neon tetras have all split up now and hiding around the tank. Used to be together. 

My tank is also full of snails now lol.

Plants are doing pretty well but fish are shyer, yet runny nose are known for discoloring when water is bad and their noses are all very red indeed. So I’m a bit baffled by it.

This is where they reside and the drop checker and what the mixture looks like. I keep in on the sump in the cabinet  using brom solution same as my other tank. It’s at opposite ends to the co2

















This is the mixture of the ferts mate, mould on top and not fully mixed







Why would it be moldy? Could that be infecting the fish? Either way you can see the sediment issue I mentioned and this is after a few mixes with DI water. It mixes temporarily then seems to come back. Maybe I should mix a fresh batch and hand dose for a few weeks to keep an eye on it?




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## GreenNeedle (6 Mar 2019)

Is it definitely DI you are using?  Maybe try a different brand.  You shouldn't get mould in a solution that isn't ancient.  All of these ferts from any supplier will have a mould inhibitor in them.

Something going wrong with the mix in that bottle I suspect.  It looks very light in colour to me although it may be the background making it appear like that.

Is the solution kept in a cupboard away from the light?  Chelates can degrade over time when they are exposed to too much light.


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## Something Fishy (6 Mar 2019)

SuperColey1 said:


> Is it definitely DI you are using?  Maybe try a different brand.  You shouldn't get mould in a solution that isn't ancient.  All of these ferts from any supplier will have a mould inhibitor in them.
> 
> Something going wrong with the mix in that bottle I suspect.  It looks very light in colour to me although it may be the background making it appear like that.
> 
> Is the solution kept in a cupboard away from the light?  Chelates can degrade over time when they are exposed to too much light.



Yeah bought from Asda so it’s DI for batteries it said. I’ll check it again Incase it has anything else in it. So does this have mould inhibitor in there too?  No light in the cupboard mate no apart from a small blue led but only mixed this few weeks ago too!

Yeah I thought the same it was a darker black initially. Clearly plants are using some ferts in there but fish were not happy with something.

Surely the mould wouldn’t give the fish bladder illness would it?

Since taking it out fish are swimming again but co2 also went off and they are swimming more so not sure what one is upsetting them. I would have though 2bps/3bps wasn’t too much.


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## GreenNeedle (7 Mar 2019)

Something Fishy said:


> Yeah bought from Asda so it’s DI for batteries it said. I’ll check it again Incase it has anything else in it. So does this have mould inhibitor in there too?  No light in the cupboard mate no apart from a small blue led but only mixed this few weeks ago too!
> 
> Yeah I thought the same it was a darker black initially. Clearly plants are using some ferts in there but fish were not happy with something.
> 
> ...



Yes it has a mould inhibitor in it.

DI water is DI water.  It is just I have had one before that wasn't right so it messed up my 4dKH calculations.

Mould won't hurt fish.

I would think the CO2 going off is what the fish are happier with.  Don't focus on bubbles.  your 2bps might be my 4bps or vice versa dependent on the bubble counter.  A bubble is a bubble but bubbles can be different sizes.  Your bubble counter might have bubbles twice the size of someone else's.  The bubble counter is merely a tool for you to eyeball what your setup is doing.


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## Something Fishy (8 Mar 2019)

SuperColey1 said:


> Yes it has a mould inhibitor in it.
> 
> DI water is DI water.  It is just I have had one before that wasn't right so it messed up my 4dKH calculations.
> 
> ...



Thanks mate, I do turn it off with solenoid overnight 

Just taken water out again and very green once again. Lots of tiny little worm like things swimming too and sucked loads of the gravel up to clean it well.












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## Something Fishy (10 Mar 2019)

SuperColey1 said:


> Yes it has a mould inhibitor in it.
> 
> DI water is DI water.  It is just I have had one before that wasn't right so it messed up my 4dKH calculations.
> 
> ...



A few days later and much blacker now!!

Still sediment on the bottom though...









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## GreenNeedle (11 Mar 2019)

Something Fishy said:


> A few days later and much blacker now!!
> 
> Still sediment on the bottom though...
> 
> ...



Is this a fresh one?

And looking at the previous mix.  Is that neon blue / purple light reflected off the bottle the light you talked about inside your cabinet?

Maybe clutching at straws with the light / chelate issue but I'm just trying to rule things out.


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## GreenNeedle (11 Mar 2019)

OK.  On Wednesday night I made up 2 x 500ml solutions.  One without the extra iron, just the standard trace amount and the other with the extra iron in it.  I didn't bother with DI, just using my Lincolnshire liquid rock water 

This water is ph7.6 out of the tap, 8.4ph degassed (probably not applicable for this test because the bottles are sealed.)  ºKH (German) is 16.  Clark is 19.

My Tap water report states average Iron is <12ug per litre (maximum reading was 125 ug/l)
Phosphorus average is .589 ug/l (maximum reading was .709 ug/l)

Reason I am adding the above is that for precipitation we are looking at P and Fe.  Thus if we use DI water we are using water free of both of these (and other nutrients) so we know what is in the mix.  By using tap water I am risking the Fe and P within my tap water causing a problem when added on top of the Fe and P in the Lush Max mix.

These pictures are 3 days old.  That is Guiness in the tankard, not fertiliser, for a colour gauge.


This first pic has both bottles.  Solution is no 5 days old, still dark.  The bottle on the right is the one with the extra Fe added.


 

Tipping the bottles up and we can see there is no sediment.


 

So at this point I am struggling to replicate the precipitation (over 5 days) even if I use tap water with no control of the "extras" within the tap water!!!

The process I use for making this up is to put the powder into the bottle via a funnel.  Then pour in the 500ml water.  Put lid on and give a good old shake.  At this point it won't have all dissolved yet so I leave it on top of a radiator, shaking it every 5 minutes or so until all the ingredients are dissolved.  It helps to dissolve when it gets a little bit warmer.  Then it is stored in a dark cupboard inside a box so no light gets to it at all, other than when using the bottle.


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## Something Fishy (12 Mar 2019)

SuperColey1 said:


> Is this a fresh one?
> 
> And looking at the previous mix.  Is that neon blue / purple light reflected off the bottle the light you talked about inside your cabinet?
> 
> Maybe clutching at straws with the light / chelate issue but I'm just trying to rule things out.



Fresh one yeah.

All black just sediment in the bottom. I put up the pics of how I made it and it’s not stored in the cupboard with the led now.

The led is literally tiny though like a single bulb that’s blue very dim.


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## Something Fishy (17 Mar 2019)

Tank update-

Thanks for the new Ferts  - much appreciated.

Yours definitely seems darker than mine does so I will keep updated with how things go here.

I’ve kinda lost love for the sump now as it keeps sucking shrimp in that climb over the overflow, and it so I think I’m going to go with an Eheim pro 3 and try again.

My HC seems a bit sad and not great so I will keep dosing and trim it back a bit I think. I was thinking about another Koralia to increase flow?

Twinstar light is a beast yeah but great growth tbh on plants. Still having Rummy Nose dying off really bizarrely - I can only think it maybe 90% water changes need to be 70% for a while but odd as they were fine for ages.






















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## Something Fishy (23 Mar 2019)

SuperColey1 said:


> OK.  On Wednesday night I made up 2 x 500ml solutions.  One without the extra iron, just the standard trace amount and the other with the extra iron in it.  I didn't bother with DI, just using my Lincolnshire liquid rock water
> 
> This water is ph7.6 out of the tap, 8.4ph degassed (probably not applicable for this test because the bottles are sealed.)  ºKH (German) is 16.  Clark is 19.
> 
> ...



Hi mate

Just an update. Started seeing neons acting oddly again and dying too after a few days of using the ferts again. Again not saying it is them, just that’s the pattern.

There are other things I’m looking at like a bacteria still being present.

Also notice the one I mixed last week that I showed you that was black still has sediment now mimicked the previous batch I made as a urine like colour.

The one you sent me if still black however.





Bit confused :/


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## Something Fishy (23 Mar 2019)

Do you think it’s worth just cutting out the fertilizer completely for a few days and trying it without?


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## Something Fishy (23 Mar 2019)

General tank update too, as loosing fish I’ve just remade my sump. Will silicone the glass in soon but much happier with it now. Added a chamber on the input left to create pressure.

That then flows through my homemade basket full of bio and sponge, and then returns on the right side 









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## GreenNeedle (27 Mar 2019)

Did you use the mixed solution I sent you?  Did the fish react with that?  If you didn't use it try using that until we find out why your mixes are going funny.

Can you remind me how much you are dosing?  How long the photoperiod is and the CO2 on/offs.

I have a 140ltr setup pretty similar in terms of size.  If I were running your tank I would probably be using circa 6-8ml daily, 8 hour photoperiod and CO2 would come on 1 hour before lights and off 3 hours before the end of lights.

On your mix, can you use an old squash bottle or something?  Change the container you are using.  1 litre squash bottles are ideal.   I mix it in the same bottle, close the lid, keep shaking andn open/close the lid to release any pressure, until it is all mixed in.

Try using your tap water instead of the DI that you bought.  I have had some DI before that wasn't right.

Obviously something going wrong if the ones I sent you are still black.  They were made up at the same time as the packs you have used there so only difference is the container and the water.


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## obsessed (27 Mar 2019)

Hi
Is that stainless steel mesh in the tank ? just to ask but what is the brown staining on the mesh ?


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## obsessed (27 Mar 2019)

Something Fishy said:


> Do you think it’s worth just cutting out the fertilizer completely for a few days and trying it without?
> yes..
> just dim the light aswell
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Something Fishy (27 Mar 2019)

obsessed said:


> Hi
> Is that stainless steel mesh in the tank ? just to ask but what is the brown staining on the mesh ?



It is yeah.

No idea I thought that too. Rust was my guess but it’s stainless steel...


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## Something Fishy (27 Mar 2019)

SuperColey1 said:


> Did you use the mixed solution I sent you?  Did the fish react with that?  If you didn't use it try using that until we find out why your mixes are going funny.
> 
> Can you remind me how much you are dosing?  How long the photoperiod is and the CO2 on/offs.
> 
> ...



Will mix up a new batch again yeah - use your original ones you mean or?

I will use a closed bottle.

Yeah odd I have two bottles of it but if it’s sat in the shelves for ages perhaps? Not sure will use tap water next time...

Fish still not right but other thread I have going we have realized my water is very soft indeed so minerals could react with it easier and change params.


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## obsessed (27 Mar 2019)

Something Fishy said:


> It is yeah.
> 
> No idea I thought that too. Rust was my guess but it’s stainless steel...
> 
> ...


I'd check into that a bit more..


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## GreenNeedle (27 Mar 2019)

Something Fishy said:


> Will mix up a new batch again yeah - use your original ones you mean or?
> 
> I will use a closed bottle.
> 
> ...



Use the bottles I sent first.  My fert sits in the cupboard for eons.  Doesn't go that colour.  I am wondering if either there is a contaminant in the DI water or that the container you are using is leeching anything/possibly air exposure causing the problem.

I'll read the other thread.  BEfore reading I can;t see it being a cause for reacting with the fertiliser.  We already know something is happening to the mixture before it gets near soft water or tank when mixed with the DI water.


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## GreenNeedle (27 Mar 2019)

I've posted in your other thread.  I have no solution as such.  Just your water report confuses me.  You have ultra soft water (2dKH) yet your average Ph is 8.42 (drinking water quality.)  I've linked to your water report in there so someone can help you on that one.


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## obsessed (27 Mar 2019)

I've just read a tad from your other tread. wow over thinking it.. its a water chemistry thread.. your doing allot of water changes..
it's not possible for things to stablize. also what are you measuring your tank water with ?


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## obsessed (27 Mar 2019)

sorry I missed that.. OK reading again and you had a nice planted tank before with the same water.. then it has to be something you have changed or doing different. look back at pics.. work backwards.. your water is pants but you proved you can use it..


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## GreenNeedle (27 Mar 2019)

Just another thought.  I see you mention you are autodosing.  Would you be able to manually dose from the bottles and syringes I sent you.  Just to make sure that you know exactly what is going into the tank.  If you can't dose daily then just dose whatever day multiples, so if you miss 2 days then dose 3x on the 3rd etc.

I also read that in your other tank you had no problem with the water.  The main difference I can tell between the tanks other than size is filtration.  On the other tank you mention you are using a large filter and on this one you are using a sump.  I guess substrate could also be a factor.  This 600 does seem to have a very thin substrate across the carpet area.  I am assuming you are using the same type of rock in them both as they look similar.

I think what we are looking at over the 2 threads are 2 different problems occurring at the same time.  I don;t think they are related.  The fert problem you are having is happening outside of the tank and the fish problem seems to be due to the tank balance in that tank.  My suggestion above is more to try and help alleviate how the tank condition gets while you sort out the problem with the fish especially if the CO2 is going off for a while.

I would think the fish problem is one for the water chemistry experts on here, seeing as they are still reacting this way with the CO2 off.  Water chemistry is not my specialist subject by a long way


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## Something Fishy (27 Mar 2019)

SuperColey1 said:


> I've posted in your other thread.  I have no solution as such.  Just your water report confuses me.  You have ultra soft water (2dKH) yet your average Ph is 8.42 (drinking water quality.)  I've linked to your water report in there so someone can help you on that one.



I have ultra soft water mate yeah. Where did you get my average Ph from? Was that my reading from the tank though? I mean my nano is pretty stable but ratios are different - more rock to water and more substrate to water ratios.


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## Something Fishy (27 Mar 2019)

obsessed said:


> I'd check into that a bit more..



You think it could affect the fish? I mean it’s such a small amount and would take ages to pollute it when I’m changing so much. Odd though as it’s stainless steel.


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## obsessed (27 Mar 2019)

if it's rust then iron..
I'm guessing but pull  it out inspect it


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## Something Fishy (27 Mar 2019)

SuperColey1 said:


> Just another thought.  I see you mention you are autodosing.  Would you be able to manually dose from the bottles and syringes I sent you.  Just to make sure that you know exactly what is going into the tank.  If you can't dose daily then just dose whatever day multiples, so if you miss 2 days then dose 3x on the 3rd etc.
> 
> I also read that in your other tank you had no problem with the water.  The main difference I can tell between the tanks other than size is filtration.  On the other tank you mention you are using a large filter and on this one you are using a sump.  I guess substrate could also be a factor.  This 600 does seem to have a very thin substrate across the carpet area.  I am assuming you are using the same type of rock in them both as they look similar.
> 
> ...



Yeah I was autodosing but switched to manual for a while. I’ve stopped altogether currently but I think I’m going to lose all the plants too if I’m not careful. 

I have a very deep Amazonia in the back right though to counteract the other bits but you’re right the front is shallow.

Yeah changes are as I mentioned earlier in the thread really mate:
Bogwood
Coral sand
Less ratios for rock and substrate
Much larger nitrification area 
Less established plant growth - javafern is largely the whole middle area and that’s still ‘adapting’ with tones of die off
Much larger water volumes

So there is quite a fluctuation there between the tanks.



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## soggybongo (27 Mar 2019)

if the stainless steel doesn't have sufficient chromium in it it will rust. Ensure you buy marine grade mesh mate as this will have the required chromium to prevent the rusting/ staining.


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## obsessed (27 Mar 2019)

it could be knock off.. fake.. not really marine grade.


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## obsessed (27 Mar 2019)

ok.. 
dump coral sand.. remove..( I know)
remove mesh..
stop adding anything to the tank..
6 hour light..
also reduce intensity..
stop water changes.. your adding co2 chlorine the other 1 Claro something.. every time you change water also you change every thing else.. ppm.. tds.. ph.. kh.. leave it be..


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## obsessed (27 Mar 2019)

claramine.. google


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## Something Fishy (27 Mar 2019)

soggybongo said:


> if the stainless steel doesn't have sufficient chromium in it it will rust. Ensure you buy marine grade mesh mate as this will have the required chromium to prevent the rusting/ staining.



I’ll have another look mate thank you. I thought I had but perhaps not...


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## obsessed (27 Mar 2019)

plucking straws with the water chems as it's all over the place and adding glut.. how much? plus you had temp trouble with the sump..
then the black Guinness stuff..
keep adding ferterlizer but new stuff or new mix..
it may be just the picture's but I can see the odd white spot.. could be cO2.. I've seen it stick to my fish..


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## obsessed (27 Mar 2019)

definitely take the mesh out.. to add to your dilemma your co2 was wonky.. it sound harsh but this is the repocusions of a bunch of things..


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## alto (27 Mar 2019)

Something Fishy said:


> I’ve stopped altogether currently but I think I’m going to lose all the plants too if I’m not careful


look after your plants - dying plants are not going to contribute to a healthy environment
Put the CO2 back

If you’re concerned about current fertilizers, go pick up some Tropica Specialized & Premium (I recommend both when water is very soft - check your comprehensive water report - if it’s anything like mine, tap water is essentially rain water)
If you have low plant mass, or mostly slow growing plants, add more Premium and less Specialized (N & P, plus additional K I believe)
Depending on plant species, you may need to increase KH and/or GH in very soft tap water
I rarely do either, just choose plants that grow well in very soft water - if you can access an old Tropica catalogue, they included hardness & temperature ranges for their plants
In my shrimp tanks, I add some Seachem Equilibrium for Ca, Mg etc (list available on Seachem website)

Honestly I stopped reading your other topic
It’s just too (I’m editing the word I was about to use so as not to offend) ... perhaps more constructive description ...
“many things are possible, few are probable”
In essence you are off chasing unicorns
Sorry perhaps that is still too blunt

Stressed, ill fish - may react adversely to water change (despite there being absolutely nothing wrong with the water, in or out of tank, despite the water being as exact a match as possible etc)
This likely happens as they lack sufficient biochemical reserves (there is no excess biochemically stored energy - usual state for every cell is to have some excess energy store) so when they are just barely maintaining a semblance of normal appearance/behaviour anything that alters their environment, leaves them stumbling about (loss of balance, inability to maintain position in water, gasping etc etc)

Rather than trying to deal with the myriad _possible_ aspects of a planted aquarium,
-  just transfer all fish to a sterile bin (any food safe plastic will do if you can’t find an economic glass box- which really just makes observations easier for us),
- maintain temperature,
- dim lighting,
- air driven sponge filter will provide aeration/gentle flow without current (lower energy output for struggling fish),
it won’t be cycled so daily water changes plus a product such as Seachem Stabilty (at  recommended dosage) or Prime (at 5-10X dose to manage ammonia, nitrites, this “lasts” ~24h under general conditions, so dose daily regardless of water change)
You could transfer media from existing filter, but only move ceramic type media (no sponge or floss as that may have pathogen contamination)

It is important to choose a bin/aquarium that meets the space (high fish density is a stressor, especially mixed species) and swim/movement requirements of the various species (Rummy Nose need more swim length than Neons) - again this is about minimizing fish stress (which is a much more real thing than the maybe aspect of too soft water somehow killing your fish, or the maybe leaching of toxins from whatever)
You also want a low fish density to minimize possible pathogen transfer between individual fish

Without any idea which medication to use, none is best 

If you see signs of Ich, then use a suitable remedy 

If tiny air bubbles are “sticking” to fish (re comment above), then you _might_ add a product such as Seachem Stress Guard (as this may indicate poor/limited slime coat production ... again not an unusual symptom in sick fish)
https://www.seachem.com/stressguard.php
It’s important to read all the FAQ (eg don’t use with any copper based meds)
Seachem is always my recommended brand as they provide more transparency than any other company


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## GreenNeedle (27 Mar 2019)

Something Fishy said:


> I have ultra soft water mate yeah. Where did you get my average Ph from? Was that my reading from the tank though? I mean my nano is pretty stable but ratios are different - more rock to water and more substrate to water ratios.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Not your average Ph.  It is the average from your water company drinker water quality report for your area.  Linked to in a post on the other thread


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## alto (27 Mar 2019)

And likely from water company adding potash of sodium or sodium hydroxide to raise pH re pipe longevity (or if new concrete mains, this can alter apparent tap water pH for several months) - confirm which from water supplier


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## obsessed (27 Mar 2019)

alto said:


> Honestly I stopped reading your other topic
> It’s just too (I’m editing the word I was about to use so as not to offend)


I agree totally as I was saying above..


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## Something Fishy (27 Mar 2019)

obsessed said:


> ok..
> dump coral sand.. remove..( I know)
> remove mesh..
> stop adding anything to the tank..
> ...



Why dump coral sand? Surely it’s only helping with KH balancing. I can’t stop water changes altogether though or the fertilisers and nitrates would become excessive. I understand drastic changes will upset the balance each time. I followed Jurijs and George Famers advice of 90% changes and to be honest for months it worked and I lost no fish. It’s only fairly recently I’ve had issues which is what’s confused me.

I am adding co2 chlorine?



obsessed said:


> claramine.. google



Sorry?



obsessed said:


> plucking straws with the water chems as it's all over the place and adding glut.. how much? plus you had temp trouble with the sump..
> then the black Guinness stuff..
> keep adding ferterlizer but new stuff or new mix..
> it may be just the picture's but I can see the odd white spot.. could be cO2.. I've seen it stick to my fish..



What’s all over the place? Temp trouble was long solved as I bought a second heater. It’s CO2, the fish are clean and healthy and no signs of any fin rot or visible deformities.

You say my water is pants - but surely it’s just soft, and by adding some KHCO3 I can rectify that. Then it’s perfectly usable surely?



obsessed said:


> definitely take the mesh out.. to add to your dilemma your co2 was wonky.. it sound harsh but this is the repocusions of a bunch of things..



Mesh I will look at swapping, but it’s there to stop shrimp going into the sump. No other fish species have been affected by anything in the tank, or even shrimp. 

No idea what you mean about the CO2 being wonky. It’s always been dead straight as I’ve used a clip that won’t allow me to bend it. But, if the bubbles go in the tank and are mixed and the indicator says it’s green, why does it matter if it’s wonky?



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## Something Fishy (27 Mar 2019)

alto said:


> look after your plants - dying plants are not going to contribute to a healthy environment
> Put the CO2 back
> 
> If you’re concerned about current fertilizers, go pick up some Tropica Specialized & Premium (I recommend both when water is very soft - check your comprehensive water report - if it’s anything like mine, tap water is essentially rain water)
> ...



Good advice also appreciate it thank you. Perhaps it did go a bit far but I still appreciate people chipping in. And it did bring to light an issue with KH also. Surely buffering my water won’t hurt anyway, it will only help to make it more stable?

As I’ve said lots now ultimately this tank was fine for a good while when I set it up, I had 14 Rummy Nose in there for weeks and they were active and feeding well. More recently they’ve been reclusive and more shy, and enjoying hiding. My current is fairly strong too so if they are upset in any way that will only make them worse.

I’ll take the fish out and monitor them.

I’m half tempted to just rescale the lot as I feel there are quite a few things I’d like to change and monitor better now.


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## obsessed (27 Mar 2019)

Something Fishy said:


> Co2 is a bit extreme and then average on and off so maybe that is not helping either? Both my solenoids are not now turning off with the timer switches - anyone else having that problem?


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## obsessed (27 Mar 2019)

slow down a little..


Something Fishy said:


> Temps I think have been hard to stabilise since using a sump for some reason it’s colder in the tank as it has to travel up after.


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## obsessed (27 Mar 2019)

I'm trying to help you..
you had algea issues which leads me to think low co2..
it's not your tap water is it..
all fish and invertebrates are different.. so have different effects..
 as for coral sand.. it does not balance it raises.. if you dont know your kh.. why do you want to change it..
Still do your normal water change once a week..
still ad ferterlizer..
up your co2..
and lastly your tap water is pants because its so soft and therefore your water chemistry is all over the place..


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## Something Fishy (27 Mar 2019)

obsessed said:


> slow down a little..



I’m not saying I didn’t say that back then. But I am saying that a few weeks back, I have corrected that by adding another heater to the mix. Heat is stable, co2 is stable (or was, it’s been off to rule out me gassing the fish), flow is intense, and coral substrate was changed very recently long after I was losing fish.

I don’t mind doing anything to help, but I’m not keen on doing something drastic like removing all that for no solid reason if it’s not harming anything. My tank would be half bare and I’d need to replace with something inert I presume. It seems to me the coral sand would help KH if anything?

Likewise with the CO2. As per my most recent post on the current problems I have tried to list anything wrong with the current tank setup, of which the CO2 was more stable and drop checker green. 

I misunderstood your wonky comment to mean that the actual CO2 diffuser wasn’t straight.


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## obsessed (27 Mar 2019)

no worries..
I have read through your thread twice and your tank looks fantastic..
you need to save it ...
your list of things you done different will help you..


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## Something Fishy (27 Mar 2019)

obsessed said:


> I'm trying to help you..
> you had algea issues which leads me to think low co2..
> it's not your tap water is it..
> all fish and invertebrates are different.. so have different effects..
> ...



Appreciate you are trying to help yeah. I’m just saying with all the comments I’ve had I can’t afford to act on everything without a good reason to, and you seem to be listing things that don’t fully make sense to me so I am trying to ask why before I just do things.

Please also remember some of my older posts were in Feb about other issues. Much of those posts won’t help too much as I have been trying to fix those aspects since, and the beard algae actually just disappeared after a few days. I used 4ml glut once a week and by week two it was gone. It doesn’t help that the java fern was not healthy when it went in. 

But doing the water change was likely the problem especially if you’re saying my tap water is pants? If I buffer it then it’s fine to use.


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## Something Fishy (27 Mar 2019)

obsessed said:


> no worries..
> I have read through your thread twice and your tank looks fantastic..
> you need to save it ...
> your list of things you done different will help you..



Thanks man I do want to. I’ve certainly been trying to do all I can for it which is why it’s frustrating.

I’ll change the wire for something better and consider an inert replacement for the coral sand.

Other than that I’ll do as alto said and get the dying fish out to monitor them, and meanwhile start buffering my water change water and testing for KH.

I’ll keep updated in here.


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## obsessed (27 Mar 2019)

read up on water changes..
you will see..
it adds allot more than you think.. 
 co2 just needs to be stable..
also plants and fish can take a while to show effects of any problems as they fight first


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## Something Fishy (2 Apr 2019)

Moved fish to another plainer tank to monitor there.

Seem more stressed in that one that the other from the move ha.

I missed a neon so left him in the main tank for now. He’s the most active I’ve seen any of them in ages and coloured up well.

I did noticed a white mark however on his face/chin, could that be the neon tetra disease or similar? Bad pics I know but so hard to catch him when swimming.

Cheers











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## Something Fishy (3 Apr 2019)

Hard to see really but not sure what it is :/


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## Something Fishy (31 Jul 2019)

Tank update as pretty delayed here haha.

Replanted the whole tank and trying an Eheim Pro on here now - great flow and beading so fingers crossed!

All the fish were put in a separate tank when I last posted and still 90% are alive in there and seem to do well. I want to ensure my water is kept soft for neons and shrimp when I move them back in 

With the extra Amazonia I read to add Potassium Bicarb to cycle it all out - is that a good idea?

I have soft water apparently as tests above and local comms said soft - but ph is over 7.7 from the tap? Should I buff it at all do you think or add it in alkaline? Kinda Confused that I want acidic water which is soft but my tap water is alkaline in Ph but soft? TDS was super soft too.

Just want to cycle the tank as best I can and prevent annoying the fish with alkaline water changes if they’re in a acidic water.

Hope that makes sense.


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## Something Fishy (31 Jul 2019)

This is it currently but it needs to grow in of course 


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## dw1305 (1 Aug 2019)

Hi all, 





Something Fishy said:


> I have soft water apparently as tests above and local comms said soft - but ph is over 7.7 from the tap? Should I buff it at all do you think or add it in alkaline? Kinda Confused that I want acidic water which is soft but my tap water is alkaline in Ph but soft? TDS was super soft too.


You still have soft water. 

All the water companies add phosphates (PO4---) and inject sodium hydroxide (NaOH) to raise the pH of tap water. This raises the pH and the combination of insoluble metal phosphates and alkaline pH stops any lead (Pb), zinc (Zn) or copper (Cu) going into solution from old copper pipes, brass fittings, soldered joints etc. At the moment the EU are very strict on heavy metal limits, and they have gone from the WHO 50 ppb limit to 10 ppb and eventually 5 ppb, although I suspect the 5 ppb won't happen in the UK post-brexit. 

Because NaOH is a <"strong base"> (it entirely disassociates into Na+ and OH- ions), you don't need to add very much to raise the pH of the water. *But* it doesn't add any buffering (buffers are weak bases and acids). 





Something Fishy said:


> Just want to cycle the tank as best I can and prevent annoying the fish with alkaline water changes if they’re in a acidic water.


I wouldn't worry too much, the pH will settle back to a baseline level fairly quickly after water changes. Vegetated soft water <"naturally differs in pH during the day">, due to the changes in ratio of dissolved oxygen and CO2.

In soft water I'm always more interested in conductivity (which you've measured as ppm TDS) than pH. You know that there isn't much NaOH in the water, because the Na+ and OH- ions will raise conductivity, your conductivity is still low, so there wasn't much NaOH added.

cheers Darrel


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## Something Fishy (1 Aug 2019)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, You still have soft water.
> 
> All the water companies add phosphates (PO4---) and inject sodium hydroxide (NaOH) to raise the pH of tap water. This raises the pH and the combination of insoluble metal phosphates and alkaline pH stops any lead (Pb), zinc (Zn) or copper (Cu) going into solution from old copper pipes, brass fittings, soldered joints etc. At the moment the EU are very strict on heavy metal limits, and they have gone from the WHO 50 ppb limit to 10 ppb and eventually 5 ppb, although I suspect the 5 ppb won't happen in the UK post-brexit.
> 
> ...



Very thorough answer Darrel thanks. Kinda get most of that I think haha. Basically you’re saying my water is ok. Is it worth thinking about an RO unit that kinda not OTT but helps with water changes and making the water a bit purer?

So just cycle the Amazonia with the usual tap water? Was mentioned about adding Potassium Bicarb to give it something to bite on before with the issues I had with neons and fish becoming stressed etc. But I’ve now added more wood and Amazonia and not too much rock so if I keep checking ph ideally I want the ph to balance as a set number with the Amazonia if I check it daily - bearing in mind it’s 7.7 when it goes in from the tap.


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## dw1305 (1 Aug 2019)

Hi all,





Something Fishy said:


> Basically you’re saying my water is ok.


 Yes.





Something Fishy said:


> Is it worth thinking about an RO unit that kinda not OTT but helps with water changes and making the water a bit purer?


I wouldn't, but you would get longer membrane life, and less waste water, than some-one with a harder supply would. 





Something Fishy said:


> So just cycle the Amazonia with the usual tap water? Was mentioned about adding Potassium Bicarb


You could add a small amount of potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3), it won't do any harm. 

The recipe is at <"James' Planted Tank">,  and I'd add about "_1.8g KHCO3 in 25 litres of water = 2 dKH"_ (so somewhere near two teaspoonfuls in your tank). 





Something Fishy said:


> so if I keep checking ph ideally I want the ph to balance as a set number with the Amazonia if I check it daily - bearing in mind it’s 7.7 when it goes in from the tap.


I wouldn't do down that route, I think it will cause a lot of stress and won't really help. I'll put the chemistry bit at the end, and then those who aren't interested, or don't need it, won't have to wade through it. 

I would use the TDS meter, instead of a pH meter. Record what the TDS is out of the tap, see what happens in the tank. If the fish and plants look OK record the tank water TDS and then just keep the TDS value in a range of ~35 ppm TDS either side of the datum value.  

*Chemistry Bit*
Unfortunately it is back to <"the chemistry">, but because the NaOH is a strong base, what you get is a very rapid pH change when you "run out" of bases. It is the slope around the equivalence point in the graph below.  




 
If you like the NaOH addition is a *black* and *white* world, you have run out of black (more bases) and you go straight to white (more acids), there is no grey. 

When your base is a buffer (weak base) you have a *grey* phase, as HCO3- ions are "used up", more CO3 (from CaCO3, KHCO3, Na2CO3 etc) will come into solution and neutralise the extra H+ ions (H+ + CO3 = HCO3-).    

I'm not a chemist (if any-one is interested, I'm a botanist) and I find the easiest way to remember all these chemistry bits is to try and get rid of all the froth and just concentrate on the important bits. When you want to know if a soluble compound is a base, or an acid, I just look at the H+ ions.  

If you've gained an H+, it is an acid, if you've lost one it is a base. OH- is a base, because when we add it to water, we've taken an H+ ion to get back to H2O. 

The other thing that helps is the position of the elements on the periodic table. 



 

As a general rule strong bases (Na, K etc) are on the left, and strong acids near the right (Cl, F etc.). In the middle it is weak acids and bases. The properties of Hydrogen (H) are a <"bit different"> from all the other elements.  

A salt like "salt" (NaCl) is a neutral salt because it's conjugated acid (Cl), and base (Na), and these are from the opposite sides of the periodic table. 

cheers Darrel


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## Parablennius (1 Aug 2019)

dw1305 said:


> I would use the TDS meter, instead of a pH meter. Record what the TDS is out of the tap, see what happens in the tank. If the fish and plants look OK record the tank water TDS and then just keep the TDS value in a range of ~35 ppm TDS either side of the datum value.


This is what I do. Works a treat!


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## dw1305 (1 Aug 2019)

Hi all, 





Parablennius said:


> This is what I do. Works a treat!


I stumbled upon using a conductivity meter because it was the <"only meter where you could dip it in the tank and get an accurate and repeatable reading over the whole range of fresh-water types"> that you were likely to encounter in the aquarium.  It wasn't what I'd expected, or what I'd hoped for, but I've begun to understand that conductivity actually tells you quite a lot.

The only real issue is that every-one will have a different datum value, dependent upon how hard their tap supply is. 





parotet said:


> Yup, I was interested in trying softer water (my tap water reads 1,000 microS) and I found a good rainwater source. I aim for 400 microS but not for any particular reason, just because it's what I have when I mix 60/40 rainwater/tap... The rainwater I harvest reads 100-140 microS. But, as I don't have fancy shrimps or Apistogramma species, I thought 400 microS was 'soft enough' for me and decreases my rainwater needs. Even in my small tanks (all of them make about 85 liters) going from 60/40 to 80/20 makes a big difference in terms of rainwater used that I have to transport, store, etc. so at the end you have to balance all this, it has to be good enough for your critters but also for you. In this hobby, easy means that you will do it often. And you don't want to skip water changes in this hobby...
> As mentioned in other threads my medium-high light and C enriched tanks are more easily managed when the conductivity is near this value. For low tech I haven't found any difference. Other hobbyists also agree on this but it seems that nobody can give a good explanation. Jordi


cheers Darrel


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## Something Fishy (3 Aug 2019)

Cheers guys I’ll keep it updated in here then! I’ve got a meter so will keep checking and maybe check ph now and then?

Really it just needs to be stable doesn’t it within the tank itself. I only planted it last week and it’s already growing in well.

I added some more Amazonia to it but was already cycled for months and tests are showing 0 Amazonia. Do you think it’s safe for livestock?


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## Something Fishy (5 Aug 2019)

Week update


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## Chris Tinker (6 Aug 2019)

the wood and plants are stunning


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## Something Fishy (6 Aug 2019)

Chris Tinker said:


> the wood and plants are stunning



Thanks mate appreciated.

Hopefully will only get better as it grows in 


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## Jayefc1 (6 Aug 2019)

Looks really good mate if you only topped it up with amazonia and your filter was already cycled shouldn't take long at all to balance out for the fish depending on how much you put in and how much was in there already cycled I've done a full rescape with the old soil and filter just topped the old off and the fish went straight back in with no issues 
Cheers
Jay


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## Something Fishy (6 Aug 2019)

Jayefc1 said:


> Looks really good mate if you only topped it up with amazonia and your filter was already cycled shouldn't take long at all to balance out for the fish depending on how much you put in and how much was in there already cycled I've done a full rescape with the old soil and filter just topped the old off and the fish went straight back in with no issues
> Cheers
> Jay



Spot on cheers Jay. How’s your tank going?

Yeah 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and 5ppm nitrates I measured yesterday with no water change for over a week so I think I should be all good!

Cheers


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## Jayefc1 (6 Aug 2019)

All three tanks are doing great mate
Yeah your defo ok now especially if you haven't done a WC in over a week your TDS will obvs go up with the ferts your adding through the week
Cheers
Jay


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## Something Fishy (6 Aug 2019)

Jayefc1 said:


> All three tanks are doing great mate
> Yeah your defo ok now especially if you haven't done a WC in over a week your TDS will obvs go up with the ferts your adding through the week
> Cheers
> Jay



Look awesome nice work!

Do ferts affect TDS badly or just slightly? Wonder if that was making the water a problem before when I was losing the neons.

I didn’t dose much this week as Amazonia has been new so figured it would leech. 

I basically want to keep water as soft as I can and keep ph around 6 to ensure fish don’t get stressed again.


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## Jayefc1 (6 Aug 2019)

My water is hard and run at around 7.2 ph apart from when they drop with the co2 to 6.2 you will see the TDS rise with the ferts through the week mine goes from around 225 from the tap to 350 by the end of the week when I do a big WC i normally do min 70% WC weekly once the tank is settled or if I'm home il do one mid week too but that's cause I actually enjoy the maintenance
Cheers 
Jay


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## Something Fishy (8 Aug 2019)

Wow ok mate thanks.

Mine is 30-45 from the tap 

I’ve just buffed with potass Bicarb and it was 96 when it went in. Will test TDS in and hour and then tomorrow too.

So Knowing my ph is 7.7 from tap due to additives making it an accurate is it worth testing at all ever? I’ve got Capacha leaves in there too which soften and decent wood amount.

Loving how it’s growing in though I must say 

Thanks for all the help


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## Something Fishy (8 Aug 2019)

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## Jayefc1 (8 Aug 2019)

Wow your tds is low lol that's almost RO Haha
 I never test my ph now I did when setting up my co2 just for the profile to get the drop of one but not since not sure if I should have lol 
Tank looks great really nice mate 
Cheers
Jay


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## Something Fishy (9 Aug 2019)

Jayefc1 said:


> Wow your tds is low lol that's almost RO Haha
> I never test my ph now I did when setting up my co2 just for the profile to get the drop of one but not since not sure if I should have lol
> Tank looks great really nice mate
> Cheers
> Jay



Fair enough mate yeah it’s very low. I think it’s less stable at that level which was maybe why the tetras were upset before. Want to ensure they are comfortable when they go back in.

How’d you find cleaning your white sand in your other tank mate? I’ve got my Ada 90p to set up still and wanted a change from carpets as I’ve got 2 now. Sand appeals but cleaning off a layer of green algae each week seems a PITA


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## Something Fishy (9 Aug 2019)

TDS was 140 in tank after an hour btw.


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## Jayefc1 (9 Aug 2019)

The sand will discolour but I find if you have a good gravel vac that can syphon through it turn it over and keep it clean it's not to much of a issue the tanks been.going about 4 months I've changed the sand twice I think it's more the soil leaking on to it that does my head in the Cory's like to spread it around but with the Turkey baster you can blow it up and catch it with the hose I think it depends on how much patients you have 
Cheers
Jay


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## Something Fishy (9 Aug 2019)

Jayefc1 said:


> The sand will discolour but I find if you have a good gravel vac that can syphon through it turn it over and keep it clean it's not to much of a issue the tanks been.going about 4 months I've changed the sand twice I think it's more the soil leaking on to it that does my head in the Cory's like to spread it around but with the Turkey baster you can blow it up and catch it with the hose I think it depends on how much patients you have
> Cheers
> Jay



Makes sense Jay cheers might consider it or use a river pebble type bed not too sure yet!

TDS id around 150 in the smaller tanks and 190 now in the main one which is interesting.


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## Jayefc1 (9 Aug 2019)

Any love stock in there yet 
Cheers
Jay


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## Something Fishy (19 Aug 2019)

Sorry mate didn’t see this! Yeah lots - pics following!




























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## Something Fishy (19 Aug 2019)

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