# IFC Aquarium Fertilizer Calculator



## Hanuman

​Hello everyone,

Based on *its ancestor*, the new *IFC Aquarium Fertilizer Calculator* is completed at last. This has been a long (sometimes fun, sometimes painful) adventure for me. I have spend more time than I care to admit but here it is, ready to roll. Home screenshot here below:



*Background*: This brand new Excel-based calculator is a work collaboration with @Zeus. and credits also go to him for his initial calculator which served as a working basis. He initially built that calculator for his personal use and needs hoping it might serve others. My role here was to make the calculator accessible and appealing to a wider audience while still preserving the ability to make in-depth configurations. Hence, when designing this new version, not only did I make the best efforts to provide visual guidance to users when using the calculator, but we also incorporated new features. However, please note that it might not be fitted for the super noob who wishes to be spoon fed. Still though, if you are a curious mind and you are willing to learn then nothing stops you from messing around with the file, and that is the idea. Overall, it is always a challenge to make a one-size-fits-all, but we tried our best, so keep that in mind.

In short, this calculator will enable you to do the following in just a few clicks:

*Create clones of well known commercial/regime fertilizers (macro & micro);*
*Create fertilizers from predefined ppm targets (macro & micro);*
*Create fertilizers from predefined weights (macro & micro);*
*Create custom trace mixes with the ability to do serial dilution easily.*
There are a few extras like the ability to *save multiple tanks* or *comparing ppm and prices* of known commercial fertilizers with your own. The calculator is also highly configurable so you can tweak things according to your needs or desires.

To conclude, the file is Excel based and there is no MACRO/VBA involved. Before hitting the download button, read the Technical notes below. Trust me, they will save you, and us, some undesired headaches. This said, if you have questions, doubts or suggestions then shoot.

Enjoy.

*Note*: < Here is a video > made by @aquariumshed about the IFC calculator. Good work mate.




Spoiler: Technical notes



*How it works:*

SIMPLE: when opening the file everything should be self-explanatory but just in case, you need to start from the 'Home' sheet and follow from there. Carefully read everything as all has its purpose. It can seem daunting at first but learn to love it and it will love you back.
Although not required, for best experience and improved visuals you can do the following:
> disable Gridline, Headings and Formulas Bar.​> disable Error Checking: Tools>Options>Error Checking and uncheck "Enable Background Error Checking"​
*Some general recommendations:*

Using RO/DI water to prepare your fertilizer is strongly advised. At the very least use RO water. Also always acidify the water prior adding any compounds. This is specially true when doing AIO (all-in-one) fertilizers.
Prefer dilute solutions that will last you a month or so rather than highly concentrated ones that will last longer. This will prevent unwanted mold build up and/or interactions between elements.
The calculator will not tell you which compound you have to use to built your fertilizer so a little research from your side is required (and expected).

*A few technical notes:*

Compatibility: *Excel 365 (Win and Mac)*. Should also work fine with *Excel 2016 and Excel 2019*. For *Excel 2010 and 2013* our initial tests show it works fine but we did not fully test under those versions. In terms of visuals, things might also slightly differ from the intended look. Below those versions (i.e *Excel 2007 or lower*, the calculator will definitely not work as intended and I will not support if run under those versions, sorry).
File will definitely not work as intended with free and open-source office suite like LibreOffice or under Linux and Co. Sorry.
Under Excel Online things don't look as intended so I also don't recommend using Excel Online. I have not yet fully tested it but will do when possible.
If you feel you screwed up something with the file or your Excel crashed unexpectedly it might be worth making a fresh download.
Although the user has the option to select between metric and imperial units, all user input NEEDS to be done in metric units. Why? Because the imperial units are only there to provide visual guidance.

*Bug reporting:*
Any comment even those that could seem insignificant are welcome. If you notice something not working or out of wack please state the following:

your Excel version;
a screenshot showing what is not working, and;
a short explanation so we can track the issue easily. Make it short and straight to the point please.
Other than the above technicalities, if you have any questions about how the calculator works or if you have issues using it then please let us know. Hopefully you will find the calculator useful.





Spoiler: Download



IFC Fert Cal v1.2b5





Spoiler: Change Log



*[4 Dec. 2020]* IFC Fert Cal- v1.04br MasterRelease
*[5 Dec. 2020] *Added note to OP about Excel Online
*[8 Dec. 2020]* Added comment about imperial units in technical notes
*[9 Dec. 2020]* Update to v1.05br. This update covers the following fixes:

Typos
Formula enhancements in non-user sheets
Clarification on the use of "Units" in CoreSettings sheet
Dennerle products prices were picking the wrong prices
*[13 Dec. 2020]* Update to v1.06br. This update covers the following features & fixes:

*NEW*: Added a new trace mix (Manutec Trace Elements)
Incorporated Calcium and Sulphate in Trace tables in TargetCalculator and DIYCalculator. This is to allow traces containing Ca and SO4 to show up
Added dGH to Trace tables in both TargetCalculator and DIYCalculator
Added data validation in TankAndDosing sheet to prevent water change volumes (TAP, RO or combined) going above the tank volume due to incorrect user input
Added additional disclaimer regarding product composition
Several formula improvements and fixes
File cleanup and typos
*[26 Dec. 2020] *Added OP picture
*[16 Jan. 2021]* Update to v1.07br. This update covers the following features & fixes:

*NEW*: Added Fe 8 % to traces
*NEW*: Added cost per 1 ppm of element in CostDetails sheet
*NEW*: Added "ADA Green Brighty Iron" and "ADA Green Brighty Mineral" to clone list in TargetCalculator
Fixed compare list in DIYTraceCalcuator. It was locked and prevented users from selecting compare traces
Fixed text in formula in the "Instructions" column of DIYTraceCalculator when no serial dilution was selected
Fixed "ADA Green Brighty Mineral" Fe content (0.01% instead of 0.001%)
Fixed Ca % of "Thrive AIO" and "Thrive+ AIO"
Fixed elements %. "APFUK Chelated Trace Elements" and "Aqua Plant Care CSM+B" elements % were inverted
Renamed "APFUK Fert" to "APFUK Ei Starter 1 Kit" to reflect real product name
Added missing traces to "APFUK Ei Starter 1 Kit"
Added color coding to Guide sheet
Multiple improvements and fixes to formulas and conditional formatting
File cleanup and typos
*[17 Jan. 2021]* Added in OP note about Win, MAC and Linux.
*[29 March 2021]* Update to v1.08br. This update covers the following features & fixes:

*NEW*: Added "Solufeed Sodium Free TEC-ST" to traces
*NEW*: Added "VIMI AIO", "VIMI AIRED" and "VIMI MICRO" to clone list in TargetCalculator sheet
*NEW*: To alleviate the perception of calculator complexity, the Home sheet now links to the TankAndDosing sheet instead of the CoreSettings sheet. The CoreSettings sheet has also been moved further back
Fixed "ADA Green Brighty Mineral" which was added in v1.07br but was wrongly tagged so it was not showing in compare drop down lists to user
Fixed ml/week needed for "Tetra pH/KH Plus (R-dKH)". It was picking full tank volume instead of WC change volume
Fixed dosing of "NilocG Thrive+ All-in-One". It was set at 2ml instead of 6ml. This bug was introduced in v1.07. Previous versions do no have this issue
Fixed Commercial Fertilizer unit header in CoreSettings sheet. It was in Liters instead of Milliliters
Added dKH content of ADA Brighty K as manufacturer indicates the product is derived from Potassium Carbonate
Added additional informational text in TargetCalculator, DIYCalculator and DIYTraceCalculator sheets top boxes for when total water change volume = 0
Added two (2) additional links in the Calculator section of the DisclaimerNotes sheet
Added half doses to "x-dose by:" in TargetCalcuator to allow more refined increments
For better accuracy, yearly cost is now calculated on the basis of 52 weeks instead of 12 months. Applies to both TargetCalculator and DIYCalculator sheets
Urea and Ammonia are now enabled by default in CoreSettings sheet
Increased Fe upper limit in CoreSettings to 1.6ppm and NO3 upper limit to 45ppm to allow commercial fertilizers with >1ppm Fe and >40ppm NO3 to show properly (e.i: "NilocG Thrive +", "VIMI AIO" and "VIMI AIRED")
Increased PO4 upper limit in CoreSettings sheet from 5ppm to 10ppm to allow >5ppm PO4  to show properly in TargetCalculator (when "x dose by:" x2 for some fertilizers)
Simplified bottom table in CostDetails sheet for improved users readability. Only the selected fertilizer and clone are shown. Table is now hidden if no clone is selected
Moved CoreSettings guide text in the Guide sheet to the bottom
Some column heading in CostDetails sheet were renamed for clarity
Multiple improvements and fixes to formulas and conditional formatting specially in CostDetails sheet
File cleanup and typos
*[28 Jan. 2022]* Update to v1.09br. This update covers the following features & fixes. It is recommended to discard previous versions and use this one.

*NEW*: Added "Aquagreen Amgrow Mix CSM+B" to traces
*NEW*: Added "APT E" to clone list in TargetCalculator and Mg is now publicly available
*IMPORTANT*: Fixed formula in a cell in DIYTraceCalculator which was miscalculating solubility of Fe in case stock solution was prepared
Renamed APT Complete to APT 3,  APT 0 to APT 1 and APT Estimative Index to APT E to reflect product current names on website
Added trace mixing order recommendation in DIYTraceCalculator sheet. See page bottom
Corrected 2 formulas in TargetCalculator which were picking up SO4 instead of Mg
Edited multiple cells in DIYTraceCalculator sheet to account for when AIO is selected in TankAndDosing sheet
Improved wording in DIYTraceCalculator sheet Instructions column for improved comprehension
Minor text edits to CoreSettings, Guide, DisclaimerNotes and CopyrightNotice sheets
File cleanup and typos
*[23 Feb. 2022]* Updated to v.1.1br. This update covers the following fixes. It is recommended to discard previous versions and use this one

*IMPORTANT*: Fixed formula in backend sheet. SO4 was being miscalculated for MgSO4 and CaSO4 hydrates
*[23 March 2022]* Added video from @aquariumshed to the OP

*[24 May 2022]* Updated to v.1.2b1. This update covers the following fixes/upgrades/improvements:

*NEW FEATURE*: ReminCalculator to allow targeting dGH, dKH, Ca:Mg ratio and K
*NEW FEATURE*: Added total estimated TDS to TargetCalculator, DIYClaculator and ReminCalculator
*NEW*: Added new commercial fertilizers and remineralizers products
*NEW*: Added Dipotassium and Tripotassium phosphate
*NEW*: Added Carbonate Hardness (CH-dKH) in water report in CoreSettings sheet
Hydrates are now properly showing in each calculator
Fertilizers are now arranged in alphabetical order in all calculators
All disabled commercial products in CoreSettings are now visible to user
Modified how dGH was calculated from water report
Molecular formulae with subscript is now consistent throughout the calculator
Decreased by half ascorbic acid amounts in calculators
Fixed how Pseudo compare cost of clone is calculated
Spelling of 'sulfate' was made consistent throughout the calculator
File cleanup and typos
*[4 June 2022]* Updated to v.1.2b2. This update covers the following fixes/upgrades/improvements:

Fixed conditional formatting in ReminCalculator sheet. Formula was picking up the wrong compounds.
*[28 June 2022]* Updated to v.1.2b3. This update covers the following fixes/upgrades/improvements:

Adjusted Fe content of Fe Gluconate to 11% instead of using elemental mass. Solubility was also modified from 6g/100ml to 9.1gr/100ml. For clarity, "iron(II)" was removed from name while "11%" was added instead
Fixed in CoreSettings the Carbonate Hardness value parameter input cell was locked to editing which prevented users from entering any value
Added rounding functions to formulas in "Instruction" column to prevent lengthy decimal numbers if user used decimals in Stock solution columns
Removed duplicate conditional formating in DIYTraceCalculator sheet
In the mixing order text In DIYTraceCalculator, "sodium Molybdate" was simplified to "Molybdate"
In DIYTraceCalculator, adjusted decimals for Fe, Cu, Mo, Ni and Co in "Desired Weekly Target (ppm)" column to match decimals in columns "Per Dose" and "Per week"
In DIYTraceCalculator, adjusted to 2 decimals for all elements in column "ml of stock  solution to add to container"
Removed dKH values from EI pre set regimes (EI Dosing Full, Mid and Low)
*[19 August 2022]* Updated to v.1.2b4. This update covers the following fixes/upgrades/improvements:

*NEW*: Added "APT Sky" to remineralizer clone list in ReminCalculator
*NEW*: Added "Masterline AIO Soil", "Masterline AIO Golden" and "Masterline AIO" to clone list in TargetCalculator
*NEW*: Added Calcium sulfate hemihydrate (CaSO4⋅0.5H2O). In the process, we noticed there was a miscalculation with that compound in Rotala Butterfly. Consequently we informed RB and the bug was fixed
Added common names for both magnesium sulfate and calcium sulfate in the CoreSettings sheet
APFUK Starter 1 Kit ppm values were updated to better reflect teaspoon guidelines provided by APFUK
GLA EDTA Micromix Molybdenum % value was updated from 0.06% to 0.6% as per the manufacturer website
Added new links to DisclaimerNotes sheet
*[19 August 2022]* Updated to v.1.2b5. This update covers the following fixes/upgrades/improvements:

*NEW*: Added new fertilizer Planted Box AIO 'Lean Dosing'
Improved Data Validation in ReminCalculator to prevent dropdown menus from showing if not required
Fixed data validation in TargetCalculator!K25. Dropdown list was not showing if water change volume was equal to 0


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## Zeus.

*"Four and half billion years in the making, based on star-dust, endorsed by Gods and brought to you straight from Mount Olympus......."

The IFC Aquarium Fertilizer Calculator*

Its ‘International’ status is achieved by co-operation of folk from all over the world in its making and sourcing of information/data relevant to the hobby. The Metric system of units is in the core of the coding, it does also allow the end user to have Imperial units as well. We hope it is used internationally.

Why ‘IFC’ in the early stages before the program had a name, I had a personal message/thread going with the main contributors at the time, Hanuman, Darrel, X3Nith and Fablau. I thought “Fert Club” sounded good as “fert” could be pronounced “Fight” which sounded much cooler, nobody objected and then Darrel came up with the strap line and added an “I” for international and it was sealed, the IFC was formed

Ownership of this program is everybody’s – so free to use or distribute as you see fit. Please support your local forum.

Thanks to all who have helped ‘freely’ in the making of this program directly and indirectly. Without your blogs, threads, posts, articles, FAQs etc it would not have been possible.

Special thanks to

@Hanuman, without whom I dread to think how long it would have taken me, he has spent countless hours working though my coding errors to get the program as intuitive as possible. There’s a cool beer waiting in my fridge and a place at the table for you any time M8

Darrel (aka @dw1305 ), patience of a saint, with the reference ability of a super nano computer when doing replies to my enquires. Author of the IFC ‘strap line’

@X3NiTH (aka – ‘The Half Blood Prince’) Hope we manage to share your potion abilities with all that dare the finer arts of potion making.

@fablau – who has been maintaining and updating Rotala Butterfly for the hobby, since its original author ‘Wet’ sadly passed away

@Andrew Butler – (he requested a copy of my original fert spreadsheet on 2/2/2020)

Hi Andy,

Sorry the first spreadsheet wasn’t very good; I have managed to ‘pool’ together an international team and tidy up the coding a little. Hopefully this version will meet your needs.

Zeus.


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## Andrew Butler

Zeus. said:


> Hi Andy,
> 
> Sorry the first spreadsheet wasn’t very good; I have managed to ‘pool’ together an international team and tidy up the coding a little. Hopefully this version will meet your needs


I only wanted to look at how you had your calculations laid out! Still to check this out in its new, finished format but will sure do so.
Thanks Karl (and everybody who put the work in to make it happen)


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## Zeus.

Andrew Butler said:


> I only wanted to look at how you had your calculations laid out! Still to check this out in its new, finished format but will sure do so.
> Thanks Karl (and everybody who put the work in to make it happen)


Your welcome Andy, well I had to tidy up what I had and improve it a little then before I knew where I was I thought others may find it useful, the thread started with various releases and the rest is history. It is always good to contribute to the hobby something which may help others as others help me to achieve my present tank.


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## hypnogogia

Hi, tried opening this on a Mac this morning and got this:


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## Zeus.

hypnogogia said:


> Hi, tried opening this on a Mac this morning and got this:



I do not use Mac, however @Hanuman did much of his programming on Mac OS as well as Win10, switching form one system to another depending on where he was working on it, so he would be the best person to answer that question seeing it is Mac related. Seeing its the first time you open it you do have nothing to lose either way - 'I think' 😬


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## Hanuman

hypnogogia said:


> Hi, tried opening this on a Mac this morning and got this:


What version of Excel is that? I actually used partially Excel for Mac 365 to develop this. Did you try downloading the file again?


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## hypnogogia

@Hanuman Yes, it's office 365.  Just downloaded again and brings up the same message.


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## Hanuman

@hypnogogia I will send you another format of the file in PM. Please test it and tell me if it works.


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## Hanuman

Calculator has been updated to *v1.05br*. Details of changes are provided in the Change Log in the OP.


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## Wookii

Fantastic work @Zeus. and @Hanuman, an awesome tool, you should both be very proud!

A couple of initial questions from a quick play:

1. Does the calculator automatically assume a single weekly water change? if so, is there a way to account for water changes of different frequencies - e.g. daily water changes, bi-weekly?
2. I haven't seen it, so I'm assuming not, but can the spreadsheet calculate nutrient accumulation?


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## Hanuman

Wookii said:


> Fantastic work @Zeus. and @Hanuman, an awesome tool, you should both be very proud!


Thank you. Yes has taken most of my free time in the past 6 months.



Wookii said:


> 1. Does the calculator automatically assume a single weekly water change? if so, is there a way to account for water changes of different frequencies - e.g. daily water changes, bi-weekly?


Yes. Single water change. This is primarily a fertilizer calculator so we didn't account for multiple water changes.



Wookii said:


> 2. I haven't seen it, so I'm assuming not, but can the spreadsheet calculate nutrient accumulation?


No we have not incorporated that. Many other calculators actually do it already but could be added down the road if enough people think it would be a good feature to add.


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## Wookii

Hanuman said:


> Thank you. Yes has taken most of my free time in the past 6 months.



Wow - that's some serious commitment. I take my hat off to you.



Hanuman said:


> Yes. Single water change. This is primarily a fertilizer calculator so we didn't account for multiple water changes.



It's possibly too complex to incorporate anyway, but as you introduce additional water changes it significantly alters the fert dosing levels required. I can run it on a basic spreadsheet for my own purposes using Goal Seek, based on matched accumulation to standard dosing and water change schedules, but it's not very elegant.

For example, if you add an extra 50% water change on a Wednesday to standard dosing, you need to increase the 3x-weekly dosing by a factor of 1.8. (e.g. a 20ppm 3 x weekly dose becomes a 36ppm 3 x weekly dose).

If you dose daily and have a daily 25% water change (like I do) you need to increase the total weekly dosing quantities by a factor of 3.5. 

If I run enough examples (or someone with a better mathematical brain than me thinks it through) it might be possible to come up with a simple formula for calculating a percentage increase based on dosing frequency, water change  volume, and water change frequency - but probably out of the scope for this calculator, so sorry for the digression, just thinking out loud.



Hanuman said:


> No we have not incorporated that. Many other calculators actually do it already but could be added down the road if enough people think it would be a good feature to add.



I'll add a vote for that then - assuming you are looking to add more features going forward (and no one would blame you if you wanted to call it job done and leave the Calculator as is).


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## Hanuman

Yes for now I will focus on making this release the most stable as possible. New features could be added down the road of course but at present moment I want to make sure everything is working as it should... and I need some rest too 😂. It has actually taken a toll on me. Going to bed quite late everyday and dreaming of numbers.😴


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## Zeus.

Wookii said:


> 1. Does the calculator automatically assume a single weekly water change? if so, is there a way to account for water changes of different frequencies - e.g. daily water changes, bi-weekly?


As Hani said, but will give it some thought, but not something that's going to be implemented soon as we are after focusing on any potential issues and fixes for what we have produced so far.


Wookii said:


> 2. I haven't seen it, so I'm assuming not, but can the spreadsheet calculate nutrient accumulation?


As Hani said again, but I have been giving it a little thought to the integration of a 'nutrient accumulation' sheet and some graphs as all the data is already there so would need no user input. But focusing on getting what we have done as polished as possible. Everything we have added are things we both find/think are useful. But not sure I would use a 'nutrient accumulation data' as with a 50% WC it is irrelevant IMO.


Wookii said:


> Fantastic work @Zeus. and @Hanuman, an awesome tool, you should both be very proud!



Thank you, Like Hani said it has consumed a lot of our time.  ' do or do not, there is no try' -Yoda


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## Hanuman

Bastaviola said:


> This must be the best Christmas present for all into DIY ferts in this hobby. Thank you so much.
> I hope I can manage to find my way around this one. Can not wait to check it out.
> Ofcourse yet I don't know how intuitive this new version is... and I don't like to push any further work on you guys... anyway I have to mention after trying out the last version:
> A guided tour, like a video of you experts calculating some eksampel and show newbies around the sheet... I am sure it would help a lot of people to actually step down the road of diy ferts.
> Can wait to calculate and probably fine tune my fert mixes... thanks again.


Thank you and you are welcome.

I tried my best to make the calculator user friendly and to guide the user through the process but I know that without any background it might be a bit difficult for a new comer to understand all those numbers.

I might detail a bit more the guide sheet that is already included in the calculator in order to clarify certain things but at this stage a video is not planned. I will reflect on it but no promise.

The reality is that the calculator is not meant for super newbs although with some willingness to learn anyone can use it. Reason being that newbs usually don't go for DIY ferts at first. They tend to start with commercial products which is entirely appropriate.

Anyhow now that it is out there we welcome any suggestions to improve the calculator.


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## Hanuman

Deano3 said:


> Excellent well done guys
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> will check it out.
> 
> Dean


Thank you. Yes please, check it out. Give us your feedback. 👍


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## EA James

Hanuman said:


> the super noob who wishes to be spoon fed


🙋‍♂️ Hi there


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## EA James

@Zeus. great to hear it's done pal, Its been a long time coming eh! I'm really looking forward to checking it out 👍


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## Hanuman

EA James said:


> 🙋‍♂️Hi there



The whole context: 😉

« However, please note that it might not be fitted for the super noob who wishes to be spoon fed. Still though, if you are a curious mind and you are willing to learn then nothing stops you from messing around with the file, and that is the idea. »



EA James said:


> @Zeus. great to hear it's done pal, Its been a long time coming eh! I'm really looking forward to checking it out


Yeap lots of work involved. 6 months in the making. Even if you are a noob I am glad if you can use the new calculator. 👍


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## EA James

Hanuman said:


> The whole context: //emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji6.png


Just pulling your leg matey 🙂



Hanuman said:


> . Even if you are a noob I am glad if you can use the new calculator. //emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji1303.png


I was lucky enough to be guided by @Zeus. when i first started the big wide world of DIY ferts and this time round I've also been very lucky to have @X3NiTH guide me in very fine detail my new regime, both have been an amazing help in getting me started, I'm honestly so grateful that these experts have taken there time out to help me. Time is precious after all.
So yeah still very much a noob but with the help of these guys I feel like I'm on a good path to understanding it all, my mrs regularly reassures me that it takes time to learn and says if i knew it all it'd take away some of the fun of this hobby and i guess she's right (obviously as  she's female 🤣) Thanks to these two and this forum I'm feeling optimistic about my future as an planted tank keeper 🥰

Cheers all


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## Hanuman

EA James said:


> Just pulling your leg matey 🙂
> 
> 
> I was lucky enough to be guided by @Zeus. when i first started the big wide world of DIY ferts and this time round I've also been very lucky to have @X3NiTH guide me in very fine detail my new regime, both have been an amazing help in getting me started, I'm honestly so grateful that these experts have taken there time out to help me. Time is precious after all.
> So yeah still very much a noob but with the help of these guys I feel like I'm on a good path to understanding it all, my mrs regularly reassures me that it takes time to learn and says if i knew it all it'd take away some of the fun of this hobby and i guess she's right (obviously as  she's female 🤣) Thanks to these two and this forum I'm feeling optimistic about my future as an planted tank keeper 🥰
> 
> Cheers all


Sounds to me you are not a super noob anymore then. Maybe an advanced noob? or perhaps a modest aficionado?  😂
Don't let my nonsense stop you. Go for it!


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## Zeus.

EA James said:


> Just pulling your leg matey 🙂
> 
> 
> I was lucky enough to be guided by @Zeus. when i first started the big wide world of DIY ferts and this time round I've also been very lucky to have @X3NiTH guide me in very fine detail my new regime, both have been an amazing help in getting me started, I'm honestly so grateful that these experts have taken there time out to help me. Time is precious after all.
> So yeah still very much a noob but with the help of these guys I feel like I'm on a good path to understanding it all, my mrs regularly reassures me that it takes time to learn and says if i knew it all it'd take away some of the fun of this hobby and i guess she's right (obviously as  she's female 🤣) Thanks to these two and this forum I'm feeling optimistic about my future as an planted tank keeper 🥰
> 
> Cheers all


Thanks for your kind words, we was all 'noobs' at one time, I am a very firm believer in 'What one person can do, so can another' and 'Do or do not, there is no try', its just a case of Appling oneself. When I first started 'Olympus is Calling' the whole fert regime stuff was all a little 'OTT' for at the time. But with reading around and help from many people/posts we now have  the 'IFC calculator' which hopefully we make things easier for those who choose to walk the path of 'DIY ferts'. If the calculator seems a little heavy or too technical its only because the user isn't on the right 'page' of their learning curve IMO. 
Always good to help others as others have helped me.


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## EA James

Hanuman said:


> Maybe an advanced noob?


I'll take that!! 

@Zeus. yeah i completely agree, what goes around comes around, good karma!


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## Hanuman

Calculator has been updated to *v1.06br*. Details of changes are provided in the Change Log in the OP.


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## hypnogogia

I've now tried version 1.05 and despite the issues I have with opening the file (about which I'm communicating with @Hanuman ) the results in calculations that I am getting compared to the old versions are remarkably similar.  It's great that it will now calculate for AIO and show the amount of Ascorbic acid and Potassium Sorbet needed. Thanks international team for working on this for us!


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## Hanuman

hypnogogia said:


> I've now tried version 1.05 and despite the issues I have with opening the file (about which I'm communicating with @Hanuman ) the results in calculations that I am getting compared to the old versions are remarkably similar.  It's great that it will now calculate for AIO and show the amount of Ascorbic acid and Potassium Sorbet needed. Thanks international team for working on this for us!


Tried v1.06 to check if the error was still poping up?


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## dcurzon

v1.06br
MacOS Big Sur
Office 365
2 errors on opening file
(it does then seem to open after these)

initial error:
We found a problem with some content in ’IFC_Fert_Cal_v1.06br.xlsx’. Do you want us to try to recover as much as we can? If you trust the source of this workbook, click Yes.

secondary error:
*Excel was able to open the file by repairing or removing the unreadable content.*


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## Hanuman

dcurzon said:


> v1.06br
> MacOS Big Sur
> Office 365
> 2 errors on opening file
> (it does then seem to open after these)
> 
> initial error:
> We found a problem with some content in ’IFC_Fert_Cal_v1.06br.xlsx’. Do you want us to try to recover as much as we can? If you trust the source of this workbook, click Yes.
> 
> secondary error:
> *Excel was able to open the file by repairing or removing the unreadable content.*


Yes this is happening already with macOS Catalina and I am looking for a solution which doesn't seem simple. Look at this post of this thread.


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## dw1305

Hi all,


dcurzon said:


> v1.06br
> MacOS Big Sur
> Office 365


I'm not saying that I have an anti-Apple bias, but every time anyone comes to see me with a Mac problem (usually involving XQuartz and R)  I hide under the desk. I know it isn't very professional, but honestly it is the best option for both of us.

So I think your problem is that you have tried to use your Mac, incorrectly, as a computer. If you had used it to wedge a door open, as intended, it would have been fine.

cheers Darrel


----------



## dcurzon

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm not saying that I have an anti-Apple bias, but every time any comes to see me with a Mac problem (usually involving XQuartz and R)  I hide under the desk. I know it isn't very professional, but honestly it is the best option for both of us.
> 
> So I think your problem is that you have tried to use your Mac, incorrectly, as a computer. If you had used it to wedge a door open, as intended, it would have been fine.
> 
> cheers Darrel


I find that by opening the lid just under 90degrees, then rotating the MacBook 90deg and placing it on the floor, it makes a very comfortable and transportable seat


----------



## hypnogogia

dw1305 said:


> So I think your problem is that you have tried to use your Mac, incorrectly, as a computer. If you had used it to wedge a door open, as intended, it would have been fine.


I think you have a bias against decent door wedges. 🤣🤣


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


hypnogogia said:


> I think you have a bias against decent door wedges.


It might not work very well as a door wedge, but it will look lovely..................and you could always alternate it with a <"big bottle of ADA Brighty N">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## hypnogogia

Just for you @dw1305


----------



## Andy Pierce

Any chance of a Google Sheets version?


----------



## Hanuman

Andy Pierce said:


> Any chance of a Google Sheets version?


Thank you for suggesting it but unfortunately no. At least not from me. Maintaining the current Excel version is already quite a challenge.


----------



## Regent

Any chance of adding champak sequestered iron as a trace source?


----------



## Regent

Hanuman said:


> Thank you for suggesting it but unfortunately no. At least not from me. Maintaining the current Excel version is already quite a challenge.


For anyone else looking at this a free onedrive account allows you to use the calculator as long as you're online..
Thanks for such a great resource!


----------



## Hanuman

Calculator has been updated to *v1.07br*. There has been some additions, a few minor fixes and improvements. Details of the changes are provided in the Change Log in the Opening Post.

As always if you have any comment or question please let us know.


----------



## Hanuman

Regent said:


> Any chance of adding champak sequestered iron as a trace source?



Oh that's a pity I missed your post. We will look at it and see if we can add it in the next round.


----------



## Kalum

outstanding work gents  bravo

i've got my own backyard calculator which i've been using for a couple of years but that will be gladly archived for this work of geek art


----------



## madhunm

@Hanuman 

The remineralizing wizards seem to be off by a factor of 100.

For example, I have set the water change to be 10L and set the calculator to clone Tetra pH/KH Plus (1dKH)

the results recommend me to doze 0.25g Potassium Carbonate into 10L of water to get 1dKH. Rotala Butterfly recommends that I add ~25g (24.62g actually) to 10L to get 1dKH. Screenshot attached






Cheers,
madhu.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


madhunm said:


> The remineralizing wizards seem to be off by a factor of 100.
> 
> For example, I have set the water change to be 10L and set the calculator to clone Tetra pH/KH Plus (1dKH)
> 
> the results recommend me to doze 0.25g Potassium Carbonate into 10L of water to get 1dKH. Rotala Butterfly recommends that I add ~25g (24.62g actually) to 10L to get 1dKH.


No, it is back to the <"powers of 10">.  I'm frequently <"lost in them">.

Try the Rotala Butterfly calculator again, but put in "dry dosing" and "0.246g"  of K2CO3. It is just more straightforward that way.

Your extra 100 (10^2) comes from the 200 mL "container size" and the 2 mL "dose size" added to the 10 litre tank .

cheers Darrel


----------



## Zeus.

Thanks for the feedback



we give both the Grams for making a solution and the 'dry dose' to direst in the tank, the 'green' text' says to use one or the other.


----------



## Zeus.

The 'potential' new version has a new sheet for Remineralising is maybe a little clearer with a choice of making a Solution or Dry salts  'when' a solution is selected and not possible due to limits with solubilities it only shows as dry dose.
for eg CaCO3 is very insoluble at neutral pH


----------



## Garuf

So, I've taken a good run at this calculator lark but I can't get a sensible output for what I'm trying to make it do so perhaps I can be steered right. 
I dose Tropica specialised and I'm noticing pin holing and yellowed out leaves which tells me po4 and iron and maybe k are a bit on the lean side, this would make sense as the water from the tap is right 'ard so also less available. 

I want to bring my dosing up to say "lean Ei" and create a ml per litre, per day, number that I can then multiply to the tank volume. 
Eg. my tanks are 18 and 38 so lets call it 20 and 40 with the filter volume. 40 X x = y Ml per day of Tropica specialised.


----------



## Zeus.

Garuf said:


> water from the tap is right '



So is mine, and it recently came to my attention that the [Fe] and [Cu] in the tap water are within EU limits but vary over the year by 100 fold, plus excess in one element can result in symptoms of deficiency of another.
Checking your water companies water report may highlight any big fluctuations. Folk who use hard water have more issues and I think these fluctuations in trace elements may be contributing (if not the root cause) of the problems people have with hard water, the higher dGH and dKH may have nothing to do with the issues


Garuf said:


> I want to bring my dosing up to say "lean Ei" and create a ml per litre, per day, number that I can then multiply to the tank volume.
> Eg. my tanks are 18 and 38 so lets call it 20 and 40 with the filter volume. 40 X x = y Ml per day of Tropica specialised.


you can use any of the preset regimes eg



or just set your own ppm targets



if you have entered you tank volume and dosing regime ( and water report details as well) the calculator will do the rest and report any issues on solubility of your fert solution


----------



## Garuf

I think I must just be daft, I can't get it to put what I'm after, do I have to put in a water report to get it, because I don't have a water report I can easily lay my hands on.


----------



## Hanuman

Garuf said:


> I think I must just be daft, I can't get it to put what I'm after, do I have to put in a water report to get it, because I don't have a water report I can easily lay my hands on.


The idea of the water report in the CoreSettings sheet is so that one can design a fertilizer in accordance to the tap water you are using in your tank. This basically allows you to customize your fertilizer to your own particular water report. Personally I think the Water Report function of the calculator should only be used if you know for a fact that a specific element is constant throughout the year, else don't use it. Simply create your fertilizer according to your preferred PPM targets in the TargetCalculator sheet.

Now, above you mentioned "Lean EI". What exactly is that? The calculator offers 4 types of DIY EI or other commercial fertilizers to choose from.



If those don't suit, then it's all good. You don't need to do a clone. Simply input the PPM you want by setting your own preferred targets as mentionned above by @Zeus.

If I didn't answer your question, please let me know.


----------



## Hanuman

I have detected a small inconsistency with "NilocG Thrive+ All-in-One" in the calculator. If you wish to clone that fert and want to follow the max guidelines of NilocG (Dose is 1 pump (2ml) per 10g, 1-3x per week Each) then in the calculator you need to "x dose by: 3" to have the proper ppm for a 3 times dosing per week. This minor issue was introduced in the latest version 1.07. All versions before that are correct. In reality this is not really an error but the calculator was designed in a way that we took the maximum advertised dosing of each commercial fertilizer in order to bring values closer to EI. This said, to allow users some flexibility the option "x-dose by:" is there in case one wants to reduce or increase the dosing easily.

I will correct this in the next version but wanted to give a heads up for anyone wanting to clone that fert.


----------



## Pablos

I started to use this calculator and it’s really great, however I found it difficult in case you want to mix dry nutrients with some branded products.

basically I’m not able to put a data for GH booster. If you take a look on  the original Tom Barr’s EI instruction you can add Seachem Equilibrium toghether with dry salts.

"1/4 teaspoon of KNO3 2-3x a week (every other day)
1/16th teaspoon of KH2PO4 2-3x a week (every other day)
Traces added on off days as the macro nutrients, so 3-5x a week, 5mls each time.
*SeaChem Equilibrium or GH BOOSTER 1 teaspoon after water change*"


----------



## Hanuman

Pablos said:


> I started to use this calculator and it’s really great, however I found it difficult in case you want to mix dry nutrients with some branded products.
> 
> basically I’m not able to put a data for GH booster. If you take a look on  the original Tom Barr’s EI instruction you can add Seachem Equilibrium toghether with dry salts.
> 
> "1/4 teaspoon of KNO3 2-3x a week (every other day)
> 1/16th teaspoon of KH2PO4 2-3x a week (every other day)
> Traces added on off days as the macro nutrients, so 3-5x a week, 5mls each time.
> *SeaChem Equilibrium or GH BOOSTER 1 teaspoon after water change*"


Do you mean you can't target GH? If that's what you meant then you are right. The calculator at this point of time is not able to target GH directly, only Ca and Mg ppms separately. Maybe, I say maybe, this will come in the future as @Zeus. has been putting some hard work on it but no warranties on when and if it will be released with that feature. Any changes made to the calculator, even the smallest ones, usually requires from my side considerable amount of work due to quadruple checking/code re-writting/formatting/logical flow etc etc as I am very cautious about how the calculators look, its usability and user flow.


----------



## Yin91

Thank you for the awesome calculator. Great job to the member involved  it is really easy to use it.

I've been reading a lot on diy dry fert and trying to figure everything out until I stumbled this calculator. Make my life easier on calculation and finally brave enough and ordered like 8 ingredient to mess around which just arrived today but my weighting scale still haven't arrived yet. Going to start on DIY macro and fluval gro+micro first.

BTW is there a guideline on chloride ppm level? I ordered both KSO4 and KCL to make it more soluble. 

Attached picture is the ratio I'm trying out. Do tell me if it have any problem.


----------



## Zeus.

Yin91 said:


> Thank you for the awesome calculator. Great job to the member involved  it is really easy to use it.



Thank you for you kind words, both myself and @Hanuman are happy you find it easy to use- Hani spent endless hours trying to make it easy to use. I think he did a great job on it



Yin91 said:


> BTW is there a guideline on chloride ppm level? I ordered both KSO4 and KCL to make it more soluble.



The answer on that depends on who you are asking, both myself and 'Hani' dont class ourselves as fert experts, we are just the guys who did the program that does all the maths and enables everyone to compare ferts. However from the reading around which has been done in the R&D in making the program, I would aim for 50:50 Cl:SO4 ratio if I had all the salts to do it. I have recently got some KCl to enable me to this in the future. so its just a case of playing with the ratios of the salts till you happy with the weekly yields for Cl and SO4. Plus don't forget if your using tap water it also will contain Cl and SO4. So unless your using RO water it can be very hard to micro manage Cl and SO4 ( and any other elements as well).
So don't get to tied up in the details, if your plants look good your on target even if you just spoon the salts in the tank weekly


----------



## Hanuman

Yin91 said:


> Thank you for the awesome calculator. Great job to the member involved  it is really easy to use it.


Glad to hear.



Yin91 said:


> BTW is there a guideline on chloride ppm level?


Well chlorine I would say better to have 0ppm or you risk killing stuff. That's why we treat water coming from tap to neutralize all chlorine. Perhaps you were referring to chloride. I wouldn't get to tied up as @Zeus. said. I will also let the actual chemists answer with more precision.


----------



## Yin91

Finally all arrived and I mixed 3 times ..2 times failed due to urea reacting with potassium chloride, producing some weird suspension. Read it up on some website saying urea is incompatible with it. So I cant use potassium chloride but, I've just realized my gh booster already had calcium chloride inside. My tap water has a reading of ph 6.5 kh gh <1 with TDS at 20ppm so I had to boost it, and which is why I was looking into including some tiny amount of chloride inside too in the first place. I'm not sure is it normal to have a TDS at 20ppm for tap water  .Gonna start dosing and see the result, really loving the calculator


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## X3NiTH

Yin91 said:


> mixed 3 times ..2 times failed due to urea reacting with potassium chloride, producing some weird suspension. Read it up on some website saying urea is incompatible with it



Im guessing you are using Tap water to mix the ferts. The TDS of your Tap Water is very low and if it’s being supplied municipally then it will be chock full of Orthophospate to moderate the pH upward to protect the distribution network.

The precipitation you are seeing will possibly be a form of Struvite and because the precipitation is slight it will remain as a suspension for a while. I would suggest you locate some RO/DI water for mixing this potion!





Impact of pH and Ionic Molar Ratios on Phosphorous Forms Precipitation and Recovery from Different Wastewater Sludges


----------



## Yin91

Nope I used bottled RO water. and the formation of struvite is impossible as I used ascorbic acid and potassium sorbic in the beginning surely the ph would be around 3.

I just did a quick test on Potassium Chloride with the RO water on a small vial...it form the suspension.  its food grade potassium chloride even. I'm lost lol 

this is funny I tested the bottled RO TDS ...I get 100ppm gonna try other brand and probably distilled is better right


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## X3NiTH

100ppm that’s chock full of potential reactionary products, you want 0ppm tested RO/DI to show the true and fair representation of the mixture. As far as I’m aware Urea can modify ion crystal size formation but I’m assuming that would be for saturate solutions. If you can, please post the link for the article/s you saw on reactionary products between Urea and Potassium Chloride mixtures, if it’s something I’m not aware of then I want to know and be able to plan around it. Thanks!


----------



## Yin91

Potassium and chloride in crops and soils: the role of potassium chloride fertilizer in crop nutrition

I found out why my food grade KCL make those suspension


> Two undesirable properties of KCl are: (1) its tendency to cake and (2) dust formation which results from crystal breakage during handling and shipping. Therefore, agricultural grades are usually treated with additives (amines and oils) before shipping to improve their handling characteristics and to reduce caking and dusting (Eatock, 1985). When such additives are not wanted because of specific industrial demands, a drier and closely sized product (special grades) is shipped (UNIDO-IFDC, 1998).


Make sense that I found technical & technical grade is available here too and the solution of KCl I left overnight the it produces some thin layer of dust sediment on the bottom and becomes very clear. Not the usual thick precipitate. I wonder if I could just filter it out...

and regarding urea+KCl ..a few source say limited compatibility, from the document above and
GUIDANCE FOR COMPATIBILITY OF FERTILIZER BLENDING MATERIALS
after unlocking a few paid research paper ... cant seems to find any reaction produced...


----------



## mrtank50

Hello, will the program be updated as an innovation?


----------



## Zeus.

mrtank50 said:


> Hello, will the program be updated as an innovation?
> 
> View attachment 165223



Well it is nothing new as there are quite a few fert calculators out on the web free already, where it is different is it does all the calculations for all the salts you use on one page (which can be a little daunting at first) so there is no need to sum up all the ppms for the various salts for each element, it does all the maths, warns you if you exceed solubility limits. The cost side is new and to compare with commercial ferts is more comprehensive. Plus you only have to enter your tank size and fert regime once, Even does multiple tanks.


----------



## mrtank50

Zeus. said:


> Eh, yeni bir şey değil, çünkü internette zaten ücretsiz olan epeyce fert hesap makinesi var, farklı olduğu yerde, kullandığınız tüm tuzlar için tüm hesaplamaları tek bir sayfada yapıyor (bu, ilk başta biraz ürkütücü olabilir) bu yüzden her element için çeşitli tuzlar için tüm ppm'leri toplamaya gerek yoktur, tüm matematiği yapar, çözünürlük sınırlarını aşarsanız sizi uyarır. Maliyet tarafı yenidir ve ticari fertlerle karşılaştırmak daha kapsamlıdır. Ayrıca tank boyutunuzu ve verim rejiminizi yalnızca bir kez girmeniz gerekir, Birden fazla tank bile girebilir.


Thank you zeus.

I have a problem.

My tank cannot use iron and phosphate in mixed fertilization.

I use csmb + kno3 mgno3 k2so4, khs2po4, axorbic acid and potassium sorbate.

What should be the pH of this whole mixture?

Axorbic acid lowers a lot.

It dropped by about 3 ppm.

Is this normal?


----------



## Zeus.

mrtank50 said:


> My tank cannot use iron and phosphate in mixed fertilization



As long as you add Potassium Sorbate (E202) 0.4grams per litre and  Ascorbic Acid (E300) 1.0gram per litre of fert/AIO solution, which will decrease the pH of your DIY fert mix and prevent the interactions with Fe and PO4 and stabilise the solution  ( and reduce the chances of mould). Once added to the tank the pH of the fert mix is relatively irrelevant adding a few ml to many litres.

The pH of the AIO mix will about 6pH as has been tried and tested by James Planted Tank

Just check you CSM+B mix as some do have E202 and E300 already added, so as long as you stick to the instructions you should be good to go


----------



## Hanuman

Calculator has been updated to *v1.08br.* There has been some additions, some fixes and improvements. Details of the changes are provided in the Change Log in the Opening Post.

As always if you have any comment or question please let us know.


----------



## ForestDave

Hi. 
I’m struggling with a few elements of the calculator. What are you meant to put in “Macro Dosing Frequency/week” please as whatever I try gets rejected? I’m using APFUK EI Starter kit and doing alternate days and one day off per week. Also I only get the option to input macro details as there is no box for micro. I’m on a Mac if that makes any difference?
Thanks in advance!!


----------



## hypnogogia

Hi, from what you’re saying you are dosing macros 3x times per week, so you’d enter the value three. The micro information is entered elsewhere as you need to choose which micros you are dosing as well as what EI regiment you want to follow. HTH.


----------



## ForestDave

hypnogogia said:


> Hi, from what you’re saying you are dosing macros 3x times per week, so you’d enter the value three. The micro information is entered elsewhere as you need to choose which micros you are dosing as well as what EI regiment you want to follow. HTH.


Thanks. I’ll refresh it and have another go. I tried typing 3 and it didn’t accept it.


----------



## Zeus.

I have just check it on the release version and no issues here, let us know if you cant resolve the issue


----------



## ForestDave

Zeus. said:


> I have just check it on the release version and no issues here, let us know if you cant resolve the issue


I’ve just gone back to it and it’s working perfectly. 
Thanks!!


----------



## ForestDave

Sorry! One more question. What does X dose by mean please?


----------



## Zeus.

It allows to to increase or decrease the weekly ppms of a clone.
eg. for say a TNC clone you may wish to do the 'double - triple' dose you may of heard of so that would be 'x6' so set it to '6'
you may which to clone a 75% EI dosing fert - so just set it to 3/4


----------



## ForestDave

Thanks Zeus. 
I’ll keep it simple for now and just set it at 1. I suppose if the plants bush out and then there is a drop in plant health I’ll need tweak dose. 
The thing that baffles me is, the recipes for fertiliser vary so much and yet by using the calculator we are striving the perfect mix. I’ll have another look tonight (I’m having to use my wife’s closely guarded work computer!), but it looked like a full EI dose was a much stronger mix than the basic APFUK recommended mix. Would you pros suggest trying the Full or half EI mix or just stick with the APFUK mix?
Apologies for the basic questions, I’m a complete novice at this!


----------



## Zeus.

The full EI dose is for high light, CO2 injection with a good pH drop with lots of fast growing plants. Which should result with the ferts still in abundance and the 50% Water Change (WC) reducing any potential build up of ferts or toxins (Dissolved Organic Compounds- ''DOCs'').
So even though APFUK fert mix is probably enough, if you are making the ferts yourself to go to the full EI dose isn't going to cost much at all, so you could play it 'safe' and just dose full EI dose. If using tap water in the UK I would advise the 'Clives dose' as your tap water should should be fine for Calcium and dKH, still add the extra Mg as Mg levels in UK tap water tend to be a little on the low side.


----------



## ForestDave

Zeus. said:


> The full EI dose is for high light, CO2 injection with a good pH drop with lots of fast growing plants. Which should result with the ferts still in abundance and the 50% Water Change (WC) reducing any potential build up of ferts or toxins (Dissolved Organic Compounds- ''DOCs'').
> So even though APFUK fert mix is probably enough, if you are making the ferts yourself to go to the full EI dose isn't going to cost much at all, so you could play it 'safe' and just dose full EI dose. If using tap water in the UK I would advise the 'Clives dose' as your tap water should should be fine for Calcium and dKH, still add the extra Mg as Mg levels in UK tap water tend to be a little on the low side.


That’s brilliant Zeus!
As always, thanks very much.


----------



## bazz

Hi @Zeus. 
I'm remineralising RO with Calcium Chloride, Calcium Sulphate, Magnesium Sulphate and Potassium Carbonate to dGH5 & dKH1.
Do you think I would be  better off deducting the amount of Mag & Pot from EI fert dosing or just treat it as a separate entity?
Many thanks for your time!


----------



## dcurzon

On the target calc, its not putting in any figures for how much Pot Nitrate to add
(v1.08 using Mac and O365 Excel v14.6)


----------



## Zeus.

dcurzon said:


> On the target calc, its not putting in any figures for how much Pot Nitrate to add
> (v1.08 using Mac and O365 Excel v14.6)
> 
> 
> View attachment 169298


Your water report says it has 468 ppm NO3 so it has taken it into account and sees no need to add any salt as you are already above your weekly target.


----------



## X3NiTH

I’m hoping that’s 46.8 ppm out the tap!


----------



## dcurzon

Zeus. said:


> Your water report says it has 468 ppm NO3 so it has taken it into account and sees no need to add any salt as you are already above your weekly target.
> View attachment 169524


good spot, thanks!!


----------



## dcurzon

another quick check of water report, and 'average' n my area at time of this report (year of 2020) is 12.3mgNO3/L and other values had shifted slightly. looks like the above was a classic mistype on my part, thanks


----------



## Zeus.

dcurzon said:


> 'average' n my area at time of this report (year of 2020) is 12.3mgNO3/L


Be careful with averages as they can sometimes vary greatly over the year, some elements can vary 100 fold in some water reports. For the nitrate I would use the lowest value for the year or just ignore the waters reports nitrate value, its there more for folk

We all do typos its only human


----------



## Karmicnull

Hi @Zeus, @Hanuman, I'm playing around with my fert dosing from first principles (molar masses etc.) and using your spreadsheet and APF 'EI' dosing as a reference to reconcile against  However my own maths comes to a slightly different answer, and I can't unprotect the hidden stuff in the spreadsheet to reverse-engineer your calcs!  

According to the 'TargetCalculator' sheet, APFUK EI starter kit is per week:
14.70 ppm NO3
4.20 ppm P04
11.00 ppm K
7.30 ppm Mg

But when I do the maths for APF UK (at 4tsp KNO3, 1tsp KH2PO4, 6tsp MGSO4-7H20) I get
19.68 ppm NO3
4.61 ppm P04
14.31 ppm K
3.56 ppm Mg

I'm pretty sure my spreadsheet is bug-free, so the only variable I can't control is:  What have you used as the weights of a teaspoon?  Your values are far more likely to be correct than mine!  By way of comparison, after trawling the internet, I've used:


chemicalweight of one TSP (g)KNO36.8KH2PO45.6K2SO4  (not used in APF kit)6.4MGSO4 - 7H205.1

Cheers,

  Simon


----------



## Zeus.

Hi Simon,

Thanks for pointing out your findings. I will have a look at it over the next few days. The calculations for APFUK teaspoons was done a long time ago so I can't remember off the top of my head what mass for teaspoons was used, so will need to find the which version the calculation was on, as the present version just states the ppm yields. We decided not to use spoons as a form of measurement as the mass per spoon can vary dependant on the grain size of the salt. Not the the variation in mass would make much difference as long as the salts are in abundance. 
Mistakes/errors/oversights happen even when you think you have it right 

Cheers,
Zeus


----------



## Karmicnull

Zeus. said:


> I will have a look at it over the next few days. The calculations for APFUK teaspoons was done a long time ago so I can't remember off the top of my head what mass for teaspoons was used, so will need to find the which version the calculation was on, as the present version just states the ppm yields. We decided not to use spoons as a form of measurement as the mass per spoon can vary dependant on the grain size of the salt.


Thanks Zeus, much appreciated.  I agree wholeheartedly with your decision on teaspoon accuracy - I can see why so many Scapers have precision scales; they're definitely on my list.  Mind you it's getting to be a pretty long list. 

Cheers,
  Simon


----------



## Zeus.

Had a think about it today and thought don't mess about its not rocket science  ,weight some salts x10 teaspoons, two scales, and weight it three times on two different scales take average





So weighed the mass of a little plastic tray first, could of used 'tare' but thought it best to allow for scales turning off in the process- which they did 



The KNO3, KH2PO4 and Trace was from APFUK and the Epsom salts was from Ebay, all packages/bags have been open for some time and the Trace was a little lumpy.
So based on my average weight per teaspoon




Based on the quoted masses you have




So much depends on the actual weight per teaspoon of the salts being sold when freshly open. But the basic husbandry of plants remain the same - watch them and they will tell you if there isn't enough (or too much) of anything.

But yes we was wrong in the valves for the APFUK fert valves , which is a little embarrassing after all the time and effort we spent. How we got it wrong 🤷‍♂️ ATM

We could do with some verification of some other members mass off each salt/trace from freshly opened bags IMO, ten teaspoons and take average and we will update the calculator ASAP


----------



## Karmicnull

Zeus. said:


> e could do with some verification of some other members mass off each salt/trace from freshly opened bags IMO, ten teaspoons and take average and we will update the calculator ASAP


I feel like a right numpty now.   I spent flipping ages surfing the net trying to find out what different salts weighed per teaspoon rather than doing this.  I'll do this tomorrow and give you your first measured reading.


----------



## Hanuman

I will have a look at this when time permits.


----------



## Hanuman

Zeus. said:


> But yes we was wrong in the valves for the APFUK fert valves ,


Where are the values wrong?



Zeus. said:


> a little embarrassing after all the time and effort we spent. How we got it wrong 🤷‍♂️ ATM


I am not embarrassed a single bit since weight of a tsp is dependent of the freshness of the product, if the tsp is flush or not, how finely the compound is grind, air humidity %, grain spacing, is it compacted? etc...So many variables. You see where I am going.
Not even sure of the necessity to update the calculator for this considering that someone else might come saying that a tsp of KNO3 is not 6.8 but 6.5 or 5.9. And he will be right.
Your weighing clearly also differs from the one of Karmicnull.
Here is another example: Teaspoons to Grams conversion via Chemical density
I also made some weighing with my teaspoon/scale. I didn't even bother doing a double weighing with my lab grade scale because the next folk coming will say yet different numbers. My results:




What is important to keep in mind is that we are already in the "over dosing" territory when doing EI so a little more or a little less won't make much of a difference if any.


----------



## Karmicnull

My measurements this morning added in (for approx 8 month old APFUK packets) - I did 20 tsp rather than 10 as my scales are lower granularity.



As Hanuman predicted there is variance (up to 10%) which is probably trivial given the EI overdosing philosophy.  Perhaps it matters more for those who lean dose.

Cheers,
  Simon


----------



## Hanuman

Small note:
what I used was not APFUK products. What I have are generic compounds that I bought locally which are probably close to two years old but it's all the same as what APFUK sells are raw unadulterated compounds so basically the same thing here or on the other side of the earth.


----------



## Wookii

Hey @Zeus. / @Hanuman - is the Remineralisation section part of the downloadable calculator as yet, I can't seem to find it?

EDIT: Scratch that, found it in the DIY section under the first drop down menu 👍

EDIT 2: Nope, that's not the section I was looking for, where is this screen @Zeus.:


----------



## Zeus.

Wookii said:


> Hey @Zeus. / @Hanuman - is the Remineralisation section part of the downloadable calculator as yet, I can't seem to find it?
> 
> EDIT: Scratch that, found it in the DIY section under the first drop down menu 👍



I have done a new Remineralisation sheet which is about 95% done on my side which I believe is more comprehensive, however due to myself and Hani being very busy it will be some time before its released






I've even added sodium bicarb and sodium carbonate which has been handy in comparing some of the commercial remin agents, although these two salt will be hidden on release or have an extra tick box to active them, as I feel there is no need to use the salts in our tanks and keep the [Na] down.
It even does remin solutions


----------



## Wookii

Zeus. said:


> I have done a new Remineralisation sheet which is about 95% done on my side which I believe is more comprehensive, however due to myself and Hani being very busy it will be some time before its released
> View attachment 171136
> View attachment 171137
> I've even added sodium bicarb and sodium carbonate which has been handy in comparing some of the commercial remin agents, although these two salt will be hidden on release or have an extra tick box to active them, as I feel there is no need to use the salts in our tanks and keep the [Na] down.
> It even does remin solutions



Thanks, that's what I was looing for, my Edit 2 crossed with your post.

Yeah, whilst I don't really want to be adding Sodium Bicarb, I note using Potassium Carb/Bicarb always pushes the K well above target. I know technically this shouldn't matter, but still . . .


----------



## Hanuman

Zeus. said:


> I have done a new Remineralisation sheet which is about 95%


Make it 100% then I will have 75% left of the work to do. 😅


----------



## Zeus.

It would be no fun if I didn't leave you a few challenges


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


Wookii said:


> I note using Potassium Carb/Bicarb always pushes the K well above target.


<"It does">. Personally I'd still rather use KHCO3 than NaHCO3.

If you were bothered about the potassium content, you would need to use urea (CO(NH2)2) as your <"nitrogen source">, rather than potassium nitrate (KNO3).

cheers Darrel


----------



## Wookii

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> <"It does">. Personally I'd still rather use KHCO3 than NHCO3.
> 
> If you were bothered about the potassium content, you would need to use urea (CO(NH2)2) as your <"nitrogen source">, rather than potassium nitrate (KNO3).
> 
> cheers Darrel



Thanks Darrel, yeah I don't really want to mess with Urea, a bit too risky.

I did wonder about using Magnesium Nitrate instead of Potassium Nitrate, but the only places I can seem to find it for sale are charging £50 for 10 grams - unless I'm looking up the wrong variant.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


Wookii said:


> I did wonder about using Magnesium Nitrate instead of Potassium Nitrate, but the only places I can seem to find it for sale are charging £50 for 10 grams - unless I'm looking up the wrong variant.


Magnesium nitrate would be an option, you should be able to find the hexahydrate (MgNO3.6H2O) pretty cheaply in "fertiliser grade".  

This one is £12 a kilo <"Nova Mag-N 11-0-0+15.5MgO ( magnesium nitrate ) 1 KILO">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## erwin123

As I have a single 60cm tank, roughly 100 litres, I'm still ok with the cost of all-in-ones ferts though I have been researching which is the most 'cost effective one available' so I'm using the spreadsheet for that purpose rather than to calculate how to DIY... Currently I'm on APT Complete but looking to convert to APT EI

I noticed that the IFC Fert Calculator includes APT Complete but not APT EI.  APT EI is the same price as APT Complete.

If I convert the APT Complete numbers to APT EI , I get:

*APT EI*
21ml /100l/week
15.33 ppm NO3
6.43 ppm  PO4
22.37 ppm K
8 ppm Mg
0.52 ppm Fe

And I hope I'm doing it correctly, but if I convert the TNC Complete to 100l at 20ml a week and Tropica to 24ml a week to closely approximate the APT EI dosage of 21ml I get:
*TNC Complete*
20ml/ 100l/ week
13.28 ppm NO3
1.32 ppm PO4
10 ppm K
0.16ppm Mg
0.16 ppm FE

*Tropica Specialised*
24ml/100l/ week
14.24 ppm NO3
0.74 ppm PO4
2.48 ppm K
0.94 ppm Mg
0.16 ppm FE

I apologise in advance if I misunderstood the spreadsheet and my calculations are wrong.  But based on these numbers I could live with the cost of dosing 3ml of APT EI a day.


----------



## Hanuman

erwin123 said:


> As I have a single 60cm tank, roughly 100 litres


Not sure of the dimensions of your tank but the standard dimensions of a 60cm are 60x30x36cm, which is 64L raw not counting the glass thickness.



erwin123 said:


> so I'm using the spreadsheet for that purpose rather than to calculate how to DIY.


Yes with only 1 tank it wouldn't make sense financially to do DIY other than being a nerd like me and knowing it is costing more than just buying a pre-made product, OR, because you want a specific mix that no other fert out there provides.



erwin123 said:


> IFC Fert Calculator includes APT Complete but not APT EI


Indeed and that is on purpose: the manufacturer purposely omitted Mg for APT EI on the label. Secret recipe so it seems. How I know? I asked Dennis. In fact APT EI is in the calculator already but we have hidden it as it wouldn't make sense to show a partially complete product.

I wont get into the details of the calculations you did (@Zeus. will probably answer the calculation part as he loves numbers, more than I do) as this would be nik-picking between APT Complete and APT EI (rebranded as *APT 3* and *APT e* respectively BTW). Now, how to put this, the question you should be asking yourself is why you are choosing one fert over the other. Cost here is not really the factor as they are both the same price, granted not the same price per ppm of compound. APT Complete is a nitrate limited fert so are you looking for redder plants? If not then it would make sense to move to APT EI, otherwise stay with APT Complete.

Note that APT EI dosing quantities is different from APT Complete so with APT EI it's 14ml/100L/week if dosed daily, or 15ml/100L/week if dosed 3x a week. That's the recommended manufacturer dosing.

The Calculator also has a CostDetails sheet where you can see the price details and cost per major compound (Po4, K, Mg and Fe).

*Note*: I have actually been using APT complete for nearly a year now as I was carrying out some tests on that product. The only problem I see with that fert is it is low in phosphate and this has had the consequence of promoting GSA. I countered that by increasing the dosage to x1.5. GSA is now nearly completely gone.


----------



## Zeus.

erwin123 said:


> I noticed that the IFC Fert Calculator includes APT Complete but not APT EI


We have added APT EI , however due to not being able to find the [Mg] of the product we was unable to do a clone so it is inactive. @Hanuman even contacted D Wong to try and get the [Mg], his answer was very polite however no [Mg] was revealed. We have the issue with many ferts that the data analysis of the product is unavailable to the public.
If a fert isn't on the calculator there one of two reasons 
1. unaware of fert or not been asked
2. No/incomplete data analysis or total weekly yields for recommended dose.















erwin123 said:


> I could live with the cost of dosing 3ml of APT EI a day.



Yes with a tank of 100 liters or less the cost of using a commercial fert isn't great so I would normally advise using them - plus D Wong does some very nice scapes. For cost I would advise TNC in the UK or TSN if your happy dosing ammonium salts, if in the US or you can get it Thrive doses provide a great valve for money fert. 
Getting the right fert is only a small part of the equation, common sense observe you plants and just dose a bit more fert, if after inducing a defiency for leave colour change then you need to be a bit more selective in you fert or go DIY

Hani posted whilst doing post


----------



## erwin123

Thanks for the guidance. My tank is 60x45x45 but effectively  60x45x40 (108 litres) because I have 10 years worth of plant soil in the tank reducing the effective height of the water.

From the APT website APT Complete and APT EI have the same amount of Magensium per 5ml dose, so my calculations my also have to be redone (thats why I 100% appreciate the efforts in creating the spreadsheet so I don't have to do the maths myself! )

The question I was trying to answer was if I am on APT Complete, if I switch to APT EI which costs the same, do I end up using less of it (i.e. it ends up being cheaper)?  From the extract below, the answer seems to be a qualified yes?


----------



## Wookii

Both are quite low on Mg, so you may want to supplement with some Epsom salts unless you know you have some Mg in your tap water.


----------



## Zeus.

erwin123 said:


> From the APT website APT Complete and APT EI


Thanks for posting that, ther must of been an update which we both missed 

When D Wongs gives use the Nitrogen is he talking [N] or [NO3] we decide to always use [NO3] although the calculator does quote both in the later details, folk use what they are familiar/happy with.
However you get x3+ NO3 for every N , so I will assume Dennis is talking N as it says Nitrogen - plenty of NO3 then






erwin123 said:


> The question I was trying to answer was if I am on APT Complete, if I switch to APT EI which costs the same, do I end up using less of it (i.e. it ends up being cheaper)? From the extract below, the answer seems to be a qualified yes?


Yes I agree, or dose the same and plants have a greater abundance.

We will update the APT range on next release/update


----------



## Hanuman

erwin123 said:


> The question I was trying to answer was if I am on APT Complete, if I switch to APT EI which costs the same, do I end up using less of it (i.e. it ends up being cheaper)? From the extract below, the answer seems to be a qualified yes?


Yes and I answered that question partially before. The recommended dosages are:

APT EI it's *14ml/100L/week* if dosed daily, or *15ml/100L/week* if dosed 3x a week.
APT Complete it's *21/100ml/week* if dosed daily, or *20ml/100L/week* if dosed 4x a week.
So you can see that you need less APT EI.

As for the FAQs of 2HRs aquarium, I just contacted Dennis. He said that they have added the Mg ppm value recently because customers though the product did not contain any Mg. On next release I will activate APT Complete in the calculator since now we have that information but this might take a while since I am quite busy at the moment.


----------



## Hanuman

Wookii said:


> Both are quite low on Mg, so you may want to supplement with some Epsom salts unless you know you have some Mg in your tap water.


It is highly possible that if one is using tap water it will already contain enough Mg. However if using RO, indeed you might need to supplement the water with additional Mg. That's exactly what I do by using Magnesium Sulphate Heptahydrate (MgSO4·7H2O), or as you mentioned and more commonly known as Epson salt. Between 3-10ppm should do the trick.


----------



## erwin123

Hanuman said:


> Yes and I answered that question partially before. The recommended dosages are:
> 
> APT EI it's *14ml/100L/week* if dosed daily, or *15ml/100L/week* if dosed 3x a week.
> APT Complete it's *21/100ml/week* if dosed daily, or *20ml/100L/week* if dosed 4x a week.
> So you can see that you need less APT EI.
> 
> As for the FAQs of 2HRs aquarium, I just contacted Dennis. He said that they have added the Mg ppm value recently because customers though the product did not contain any Mg. On next release I will activate APT Complete in the calculator since now we have that information but this might take a while since I am quite busy at the moment.



Thanks for the advice and answers. When my bottle of APT Complete is finished I'll be switching to APT EI because it 'costs less' the same 'but has more'.

I'm currently dosing my 100 litre tank 6ml of APT Complete and 2ml of APT Zero daily.


----------



## Hanuman

erwin123 said:


> I'm currently dosing my 100 litre tank 6ml of APT Complete and 2ml of APT Zero daily.


That indeed brings it closer to EI levels.


----------



## JacksonL

Is there a way to add in our own trace element mix? Or to see the % composition of the ones in the sheet in order to identify which is closest?
I use a micro mix sold by Aquagreen in Australia that is very popular and would be worth having in, it is an EDTA CSM+B mix from Amgrow, the makeup is;


> Amgrow Mix
> Fe 7.5%
> Mn 3.7%
> Zn 0.6%
> Cu 0.3%
> B 0.7%
> Mo 0.2%


----------



## Nont

Off-topic, Just noticed I’m not the only Thai member here 🙏


----------



## Zeus.

Natthanon said:


> Off-topic, Just noticed I’m not the only Thai member here 🙏


No @Hanuman  is in here and along with myself was the main team in the making of the IFC, without him it my of never got to the level it has


----------



## Tim Harrison

Zeus. said:


> No @Hannah


Or @Hanuman ?


----------



## Zeus.

Tim Harrison said:


> Or @Hanuman ?


My mistake 😂, @Hanuman  would never make such a typo as he double/triple checked everything, I was always a little slap/dash


----------



## Hanuman

What's up? Always late to the party!! Damm.


Natthanon said:


> Off-topic, Just noticed I’m not the only Thai member here 🙏


Yes. One of the only here! What's up? If you need any help live I'll be happy to help.


----------



## Nont

Hanuman said:


> What's up? Always late to the party!! Damm.
> 
> Yes. One of the only here! What's up? If you need any help live I'll be happy to help.


Where did you and most people here get knowledge mainly about biology and chemistry?
I want to be a professional aquascaper and I’m currently looking for subject in the university that related to it.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


Natthanon said:


> I’m currently looking for subject in the university that related to it.


I don't know what options you have, but "Freshwater Ecology" would be your key words to search on.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Zeus.

Natthanon said:


> Where did you and most people here get knowledge mainly about biology and chemistry?
> I want to be a professional aquascaper and I’m currently looking for subject in the university that related to it.


Well being a retired Dentist, most of it came from the study of the subject, but its my love of maths and software and liking a puzzle to solve that gave the drive to do the IFC. I don't feel the is a need of a degree to do become a 'professional aquascaper' it it wouldn't harm in the quest. Its more a cast of a multi discipline of many subjects help in the creation of something natural that looks great or is pleasing to the folk you are paying for your services.


----------



## Hanuman

Natthanon said:


> Where did you and most people here get knowledge mainly about biology and chemistry?
> I want to be a professional aquascaper and I’m currently looking for subject in the university that related to it.


I am no bilogist or chemist just passionate about plants, water, fish and whatnot. You will see that the very large majority of people have jobs and activities which are not remotely related to aquascape. It's just a passion or a hobby to most. In fact some of the pro aquascapers I know don't even have a degree. Some are photographers, others engineers or salesman... you name it!
All you need is patience, observation, dedication and time...and money (if you intend to go the high tech route).


----------



## deeproots

first of all - thanks for creating this, just need a bit of (really basic) guidance for mine.  What should I set salt ratios to on "tank and dosing"?  If I've set the tank volume, wc data, AIO daily dose and container volume as follows:





I set the ratios to "1" and clone tnc complete but the values look really low for my container:





I think I've put everything in right, but the ratios are confusing me. Thanks in advance.


----------



## medlight

Zeus. said:


> When D Wongs gives use the Nitrogen is he talking [N] or [NO3] we decide to always use [NO3] although the calculator does quote both in the later details, folk use what they are familiar/happy with.
> View attachment 171523


This is something that intrigues me, because it is clear that N is nitrogen, not NO3, which means that its fertiization is not very lean, so I think that you are using various nitrogen sources for N, as KNO3 is only impossible, if you add KH2PO4 , its% in N (KNO3) is limited to 58%, if it is used by a source of P without potassium, it can reach up to 75.56% ...


----------



## Zeus.

deeproots said:


> What should I set salt ratios to on "tank and dosing"?


The ratios are for each nutrient group NO3, PO4, K etc If you only have one salt in each group it doesn't matter what ratio you use the results are the same. If using multi salts say for NO3 eg Potassium Nitrate and Urea and set the ratio to '1' for both the Target NO3 for each salt is 50% of the total NO3 target ( same if you set each one at '367' - both get an each share). If you set Potassium Nitrate to '9' and urea to '1' Potassium Nitrate will supply 90% of the NO3 and Urea will supply 10%. The amount each salt supplies of the nutrient group is shown in the salt share. Doing a 'salt share' was the easiest way we came up with doing it



deeproots said:


> I set the ratios to "1" and clone tnc complete but the values look really low for my container:



your dosing will only supply the Standard dose of TNC complete when the TNC dose is set to '1'






Changing the Container Volume, dose amount, and frequency will only change the volume you add not the nutrients in each dose, the concentration of each dose will change but not the amount of nutrients. If you make it too concentrate it will point out you have exceeded the solubility limits for the salts.

If you wish to dose x2 the TNC dose set it too '2' and nothing your done.

Remember when it makes a clone all it clones is the nutrients per week not a 'true' clone - If you wish to make a 'true' clone then just set the IFC to the dose amount and frequency which TNC advise as standard, the Volume of container is irrelevant 



deeproots said:


> first of all - thanks for creating this



You welcome and thanks


----------



## Zeus.

medlight said:


> This is something that intrigues me, because it is clear that N is nitrogen, not NO3


What folk use is irrelevant some use N others use NO3, Although using N, P and K are what is used mainly in agriculture when firms supply nutrients, but as far as I am aware no plants uses N or P they use compounds which contain N and P.

The main reasons we chose to use NO3, K and PO4 are because the popular dosing regime EI dosing's quotes these figure and plants take up NO3, K and PO4. 
Although when dosing for NO3 we advise Potassium Nitrate, however Urea has no NO3 however we have allowed for its conversion by the micro flora in the tank or by the plant itself.


----------



## deeproots

Zeus. said:


> The ratios are for each nutrient group NO3, PO4, K etc If you only have one salt in each group it doesn't matter what ratio you use the results are the same. If using multi salts say for NO3 eg Potassium Nitrate and Urea and set the ratio to '1' for both the Target NO3 for each salt is 50% of the total NO3 target ( same if you set each one at '367' - both get an each share). If you set Potassium Nitrate to '9' and urea to '1' Potassium Nitrate will supply 90% of the NO3 and Urea will supply 10%. The amount each salt supplies of the nutrient group is shown in the salt share. Doing a 'salt share' was the easiest way we came up with doing it
> 
> 
> 
> your dosing will only supply the Standard dose of TNC complete when the TNC dose is set to '1'
> 
> View attachment 179202
> 
> Changing the Container Volume, dose amount, and frequency will only change the volume you add not the nutrients in each dose, the concentration of each dose will change but not the amount of nutrients. If you make it too concentrate it will point out you have exceeded the solubility limits for the salts.
> 
> If you wish to dose x2 the TNC dose set it too '2' and nothing your done.
> 
> Remember when it makes a clone all it clones is the nutrients per week not a 'true' clone - If you wish to make a 'true' clone then just set the IFC to the dose amount and frequency which TNC advise as standard, the Volume of container is irrelevant
> 
> 
> 
> You welcome and thanks


Thankyou!  So just so I've got this right, could you please have a look to see if this looks reasonable?  I chose EI dosing low as my target (instead of tnc).  I chose to dose 20ml per day, 7 days a week into a 280l with injected co2 (not a high bps, 2-3bps), fluval plant 3 (59w) and a nicrew sky led plus 120cm on 14 hours a day.  

Macro:




Micro (I have chempak sequestered iron as well as AFPUK trace, so I chose FE7%, not sure if this is anywhere near correct):




 Thankyou for your help so far


----------



## Yugang

Thanks for this great calculator, and the ongoing time spent for its maintenance and debugging.

Talking about "AIO" (all in one), can all macros be safely (chemistry still good for plant uptake) mixed in one container with tap water and kept for a couple of weeks at room temperature? Any exceptions to this?


----------



## hypnogogia

Advice is usually to use RO not tap water.  Especially for AIO where you need to reduce the pH so that there is not interaction.  If you have hard tap that will be difficult.


----------



## Yugang

Trying to reformulate my question in general terms, rather than for my specific tank (I dose all Macros and Micros from separate bottles, just to be sure):

_“What salts can be mixed in an All-In-One solution (without significant adverse reactions that may limit nutrient availability for plant uptake), and what are the exceptions where there is a need to keep salts separate in multiple dosing containers and/or dose at separate times into the tank?”_

With my very limited knowledge of chemistry, I am trying to understand what seem to be two different cases with different dynamics:

The dosing containers with relatively high concentrations of salts mixed and dissolved in water; these can potentially interact for weeks or months until the container is empty and will be replenished. This combination of high concentration and longer timeframe seems a worst case scenario from a adverse chemical reaction perspective.
Our tank where salts are diluted down to ppm levels, and where the typical times for unwanted chemical interactions to take place are hours/days (the time between fresh doses into the tank). This raises the question whether it is indeed beneficial to dose different fertilisers on separate days if the objective is to mitigate potential chemical interactions between them.
I am hoping that there is a resource, or a brilliant chemist amongst us who can supplement this information to the IFC calculator.


----------



## Hanuman

I'll make this quick and easy.

DIY AIO can be done. HOWEVER, because we are using weak acids and sometimes non-chelated compounds, compounds will interact sooner rather than later. That is why in the calculator it is advised to do lowly concentrated solutions. Don't get me wrong, it is possible to do AIO fertilizers that will last for months/years but those commercially available products use strong acids such as citric acid, sulfuric acid or other rather dangerous acids for DIY.
Also ALWAYS use RO water (+DI even better) to prepare your fertilizer. You do not know what is in your tap water that WILL interact with the compounds you will add to the water. ALWAYS acidify the solution prior adding any salts, never after.

It is usually advised to separate macros, micros and Fe. Fe and micros could be mixed together as long as you acidify water properly and use higher concentration (Fe 11% up). Remember, this is DIY so we have limited access to high tech chemistry and must accept the downsides.

I'll let @Zeus. and @dw1305 answer the interaction technicalities as that is not my area of expertise but you can start here: Interactions


----------



## Zeus.

Hanuman said:


> I'll make this quick and easy.
> 
> DIY AIO can be done. HOWEVER, because we are using weak acids and sometimes non-chelated compounds, compounds will interact sooner rather than later. That is why in the calculator it is advised to do lowly concentrated solutions. Don't get me wrong, it is possible to do AIO fertilizers that will last for months/years but those commercially available products use strong acids such as citric acid, sulfuric acid or other rather dangerous acids for DIY.
> Also ALWAYS use RO water (+DI even better) to prepare your fertilizer. You do not know what is in your tap water that WILL interact with the compounds you will add to the water. ALWAYS acidify the solution prior adding any salts, never after.
> 
> It is usually advised to separate macros, micros and Fe. Fe and micros could be mixed together as long as you acidify water properly and use higher concentration (Fe 11% up). Remember, this is DIY so we have limited access to high tech chemistry and must accept the downsides.
> 
> I'll let @Zeus. and @dw1305 answer the interaction technicalities as that is not my area of expertise but you can start here: Interactions


Summed up quite well IMO 👍

Plus we don't not make the solutions in a sterile environment, so we also introduce bacteria and spores of all sorts in our mix/broth, acidifying the solution also makes it an solution which will inhibited any bacteria and spores from thriving in them but its not 100% proof, so making a solution that will only last 6 to 8 weeks is a safer bet. I made some large batches early on and months later had mould in them. Always sterilise/disinfect your containers with at a least boiling water when making a new batch, I use multi containers which I rinse well and leave upside down till next time air dry as well.

I use RO water when I have it or boiled tap water cooled when I have non to hand.


----------



## Zeus.

Yugang said:


> Thanks for this great calculator, and the ongoing time spent for its maintenance and debugging.


Thank you for your kind words 😁 and glad you fine it helpful


----------



## aquariumshed

Just plugging my tanks into this calculator, and I honestly can't thank you guys enough. What a fantastic tool, remarkably detailed and really simple to get your head around. You've made my journey into dry salts so much simpler. Thanks so much!


----------



## Zeus.

aquariumshed said:


> Just plugging my tanks into this calculator, and I honestly can't thank you guys enough. What a fantastic tool, remarkably detailed and really simple to get your head around. You've made my journey into dry salts so much simpler. Thanks so much!


Thank you, positive feedback makes all the hours spent well worth it 😁


----------



## Zeus.

Edited post 25/1/22- The values for APT products was correct on release- there have been some minor changes in the product which will be on next release- soon


----------



## Hanuman

I found a rather nasty bug in the DIYTraceCalculator and an update is underway. I would advise anyone using that DIYTraceCalculator holding from using it until the update. I'll make another post when the update is ready for download.


----------



## Hanuman

Zeus. said:


> It has just come to my attention that the weekly *[NO3]* for APT complete for its recommended weekly dose is incorrect , we will hopefully have it corrected soon


Just to make this clear for members who see this on this thread, NO3 for APT is correct. We just had a small doubt but ended being just a doubt.


----------



## hypnogogia

Hanuman said:


> I found a rather nasty bug in the DIYTraceCalculator and an update is underway. I would advise anyone using that DIYTraceCalculator holding from using it until the update. I'll make another post when the update is ready for download.


What’s the bug please? Is it under or over calculating trace requirements?


----------



## Hanuman

hypnogogia said:


> What’s the bug please? Is it under or over calculating trace requirements?


The bug is with Fe. An error in the formula ends up screwing with the solubility limits advised in the "instruction" columns. This should not affect 99.99% of people because anyways I don't think anyone does serial dilution for Fe.


----------



## Zeus.

Hanuman said:


> The bug is with Fe. An error in the formula ends up screwing with the solubility limits advised in the "instruction" columns. This should not affect 99.99% of people because anyways I don't think anyone does serial dilution for Fe.


The reason it was missed is that as Hanni said serial dilutions are not really needed for Fe and you would have to be going for very high target Fe ppms or lots of Fe in grams in very little water - the salt just wouldn't of dissolved and the undissolved salt would of been very obvious to anyone with common sense. The coding/formulas for the instructions can be tricky to do to cover everything and minor errors/oversights are easy IMO.


----------



## Hanuman

For the curious geeks out there, here is the formula in question. I think anyone would understand why bugs can occur 😇. This is just one cell 🤓


> =IF(OR($K$15=0,$K$16=0,$K$17=0,AND($L31="yes",$N31>$M31),AND($L31="yes",$N31>$K$16*$O$28%),IF(SUMIFS($N$31:$N$39,$L$31:$L$39,"yes",$M$31:$M$39,">0")>=$K$16,N31,0)>=($K$16-SUMIFS($N$31:$N$39,$L$31:$L$39,"yes",$M$31:$M$39,">0"))),"-",
> IF(IsPPM,
> IF($L31="yes",
> IF(OR($J31="",$O31=""),"-",IF(($R31/$M31*1000)/INDEX(SS!$H$29:$H$48,MATCH(DIYTraceCalculator!G31,SS!$B$29:$B$48,0))<1,IF($R31="-","-","Add "&ROUND($R31,2)&" gr of '"&$H31&"' to your "&$M31&" ml stock container, then add "&$N31&" ml of that solution to your "&DIYTraceAdjustedMicroVolume&" ml " &IF(AIO="yes","AIO","Micro")&" container."),"Trace Solubility Exceeded ("&ROUND(($R31/$M31*1000)/INDEX(SS!$H$29:$H$48,MATCH(DIYTraceCalculator!G31,SS!$B$29:$B$48,0))%,1)&" %) - Increase ml taken from stock solution to " &IF(AIO="yes","AIO","Micro")&" container.")),
> IF($L31="no",
> IF($J31="","-",IF(($S31/$K$16*1000)/INDEX(SS!$H$29:$H$48,MATCH(DIYTraceCalculator!G31,SS!$B$29:$B$48,0))<1,IF($S31="-","-","Add "&ROUND(S31,2)&" gr of '"&$H31&"' to your " &IF(AIO="yes","AIO","Micro")&" container."),"Trace Solubility Exceeded ("&ROUND(($S31/$K$16*1000)/INDEX(SS!$H$29:$H$48,MATCH(DIYTraceCalculator!G31,SS!$B$29:$B$48,0))%,1)&" %) - Try increasing your daily dosage in the TankAndDosing sheet.")),"-")),
> IF(IsGrams,
> IF($L31="yes",
> IF(OR($I31="",$O31=""),"-",IF(($I31/$M31*1000)/INDEX(SS!$H$29:$H$48,MATCH(DIYTraceCalculator!G31,SS!$B$29:$B$48,0))<1,IF($R31="-","-","Add "&ROUND(R31,2)&" gr of '"&$H31&"' to your "&$M31&" ml stock container, then add "&$N31&" ml of that solution to your "&DIYTraceAdjustedMicroVolume&" ml " &IF(AIO="yes","AIO","Micro")&" container."),"Trace Solubility Exceeded ("&ROUND(($I31/$M31*1000)/INDEX(SS!$H$29:$H$48,MATCH(DIYTraceCalculator!G31,SS!$B$29:$B$48,0))%,1)&" %) - Increase ml taken from stock solution to " &IF(AIO="yes","AIO","Micro")&" container.")),
> IF($L31="no",
> IF($I31="","-",IF(($I31/$K$16*1000)/INDEX(SS!$H$29:$H$48,MATCH(DIYTraceCalculator!G31,SS!$B$29:$B$48,0))<1,IF($S31="-","-","Add "&ROUND($S31,2)&" gr of '"&$H31&"' to your " &IF(AIO="yes","AIO","Micro")&" container."),"Trace Solubility Exceeded ("&ROUND(($I31/$K$16*1000)/INDEX(SS!$H$29:$H$48,MATCH(DIYTraceCalculator!G31,SS!$B$29:$B$48,0))%,1)&" %) - Try increasing your daily dosage in the TankAndDosing sheet.")),"-")),"-")))


You can breath now.


----------



## hypnogogia

Hanuman said:


> For the curious geeks out there, here is the formula in question. I think anyone would understand why bugs can occur 😇. This is just one cell 🤓
> 
> You can breath now.


I think that just illustrates how hard @Hanuman anx @Zeus. have worked on this and given up their time to give us this calculator.  Thanks guys.


----------



## bazz

hypnogogia said:


> I think that just illustrates how hard @Hanuman anx @Zeus. have worked on this and given up their time to give us this calculator. Thanks guys.


Hear, hear!


----------



## arcturus

Hanuman said:


> For the curious geeks out there, here is the formula in question. I think anyone would understand why bugs can occur 😇. This is just one cell 🤓
> 
> You can breath now.


 Are you using VBA macros or are most formulas inline like this? Moving this to VBA (in another lifetime) could simplify your work...

In any case, your amazing work is greatly appreciated!


----------



## Hanuman

arcturus said:


> Are you using VBA macros or are most formulas inline like this? Moving this to VBA (in another lifetime) could simplify your work...
> 
> In any case, your amazing work is greatly appreciated!


VBA/macros were purposefully excluded from the calculator to avoid having to deal with security issues. This meant a lot more work on the function and custom formatting side. But yes VBA would have made my life much easier and it was something that was considered from the inception of the project.


----------



## Zeus.

hypnogogia said:


> I think that just illustrates how hard @Hanuman anx @Zeus. have worked on this and given up their time to give us this calculator.  Thanks guys.


Plus we both enjoyed the challenge of making a easy/reliable way to compare, clone and make ferts without doing the maths each time for ourselves and sharing it FOC gives something back to the hobby/community we both enjoy.


----------



## JacksonL

JacksonL said:


> Is there a way to add in our own trace element mix? Or to see the % composition of the ones in the sheet in order to identify which is closest?
> I use a micro mix sold by Aquagreen in Australia that is very popular in Australia and would probably be worth having in, it is an EDTA CSM+B mix from Amgrow, the makeup is;
> Aquagreen Amgrow Mix
> Fe 7.5%
> Mn 3.7%
> Zn 0.6%
> Cu 0.3%
> B 0.7%
> Mo 0.2%


Thanks so much for this great tool, it is making fert mixing so simple.
I am just wondering if this micro mix powder could be added into the next version?


----------



## Hanuman

JacksonL said:


> Is there a way to add in our own trace element mix?





JacksonL said:


> Thanks so much for this great tool, it is making fert mixing so simple.
> I am just wondering if this micro mix powder could be added into the next version?


Sorry I missed this. There is no way for the user to add its own mix to the calculator, it's way too involved and since VBA is excluded from the calculator it would be very difficult to code so that user is able to do such additions.

Let me see if I can add that mix to the next release which is currently being worked on. No promises. I'll talk with @Zeus. see what we can do.



JacksonL said:


> Or to see the % composition of the ones in the sheet in order to identify which is closest?


For this you can use the DIYTraceCalculator and use the compare dropdown list.


----------



## JacksonL

Hanuman said:


> Sorry I missed this. There is no way for the user to add its own mix to the calculator, it's way too involved and since VBA is excluded from the calculator it would be very difficult to code so that user is able to do such additions.
> 
> Let me see if I can add that mix to the next release which is currently being worked on. No promises. I'll talk with @Zeus. see what we can do.
> 
> 
> For this you can use the DIYTraceCalculator and use the compare dropdown list.


thanks so much.


----------



## Hanuman

@JacksonL Is there any link you could provide to that product please?


----------



## Zeus.

JacksonL said:


> Is there a way to add in our own trace element mix? Or to see the % composition of the ones in the sheet in order to identify which is closest?
> I use a micro mix sold by Aquagreen in Australia that is very popular and would be worth having in, it is an EDTA CSM+B mix from Amgrow, the makeup is;


I missed it also 

Like @Hanuman said could do with Data sheet or pic of the package showing the composition


----------



## Hanuman

The update to the calculator is virtually done. We are waiting for god almighty @Zeus. to have a godly look at it and at @JacksonL to provide either a link or a picture of the product content, weight and price that he wishes to have in the calculator. I'm on standby gentlemen.


----------



## Sdogg

Hi
I might be being really stupid or missing something obvious - but how do you actually open the calculator?

None of the links seem to lead anywhere for me?


----------



## hypnogogia

Sdogg said:


> Hi
> I might be being really stupid or missing something obvious - but how do you actually open the calculator?
> 
> None of the links seem to lead anywhere for me?


You need to click on the download link bottom of this page. IFC Aquarium Fertilizer Calculator


----------



## Hanuman

Sdogg said:


> Hi
> I might be being really stupid or missing something obvious - but how do you actually open the calculator?
> 
> None of the links seem to lead anywhere for me?


Hi. On the OP:


----------



## Zeus.

I would wait for new update - should up very soon V1.099 or above


----------



## Hanuman

V.09br. The last 9 is personal versioning.


----------



## arcturus

Hanuman said:


> V.09br. The last 9 is personal versioning.


And what is the *br*? That is the ISO language code for Breton


----------



## Hanuman

br=beta release 😎


----------



## Zeus.

As you can tell @Hanuman takes care of the Version numbers and lots of the other finer coding detail as he is excellent at it. When theirs a team it is always best to use each others strengths 😁 - I'm good at lightning bolts 😅


----------



## Hanuman

Calculator has been updated to v1.09br. There has been some additions, one important fix and several improvements. Details of the changes are provided in the Change Log in the Opening Post. I recommend everyone to use this version.

As always if you have any comment or question please let us know.


----------



## mrtank50

Thank you very much to the friends who made this calculator.
You are great.

I have a few questions about DIY fertilization.

1-What should be the pH value of our all-in-one fertilization?

2- How should the mixing order be?
For example, is the following order correct?

ascorbic acid- potassium sorbate-edta-nitrate-phosphate-potassium-microelements-iron or csbm+

3-Can we add 3% Glutaraldehyde to all-in-one fertilization?


----------



## Zeus.

Thank you for your kind words and great to hear you find it useful 😁


mrtank50 said:


> 1-What should be the pH value of our all-in-one fertilization?


if you add the ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate to the water first it should reach its optimum pH with it being a weal acid I think its will be about 5pH 😬 @X3NiTH or @dw1305 will correct me if the 5pH is incorrect. But I have never taken the pH of my ferts I just add the ascorbic acid- potassium sorbate


mrtank50 said:


> 2- How should the mixing order be?



I don't think it matters for Macros, AIO and Micros (when using a premixed micro mix) @X3NiTH will correct me if wrong
When making a DIY trace solutions there is an order  which is on the bottom of the DIY Trace page(if you are on latest release)


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


Zeus. said:


> But I have never taken the pH of my ferts I just add the ascorbic acid- potassium sorbate





Zeus. said:


> optimum pH with it being a weak acid I think its will be about 5pH


As long as it is well below pH7, then it is pretty much irrelevant even if it is down to pH3, once it is added to the tank you have the dilution effect of the tank water.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hanuman

JESUS can't even finish typing already 2 posts down!


----------



## mrtank50

Zeus. said:


> Thank you for your kind words and great to hear you find it useful 😁
> 
> if you add the ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate to the water first it should reach its optimum pH with it being a weal acid I think its will be about 5pH 😬 @X3NiTH or @dw1305 will correct me if the 5pH is incorrect. But I have never taken the pH of my ferts I just add the ascorbic acid- potassium sorbate
> 
> 
> I don't think it matters for Macros, AIO and Micros (when using a premixed micro mix) @X3NiTH will correct me if wrong
> When making a DIY trace solutions there is an order  which is on the bottom of the DIY Trace page(if you are on latest release)
> View attachment 181556


My tank ph is between 5-5.5.

The pH of the fertilizer I make drops down to 2.
I was wondering if it was limiting some things. Because it drops too much.


----------



## Hanuman

Here are PH tests I carried out a year ago. 


@Zeus. With Ascorbic Acid PH should go down to 2.5 prior adding any compound.
It's basically the Fe that ends up bringing PH up, hence why it's best to use higher concentration Fe. In that test I used 7% Fe.

But as @dw1305 said it is pretty much irrelevant.

NOTE to noob reading this. This was merely a test to understand and experiment on PH levels. Don't go around buying those acids. As you can see Ascorbic Acid pretty much does the job.


----------



## Hanuman

mrtank50 said:


> The pH of the fertilizer I make drops down to 2.
> I was wondering if it was limiting some things. Because it drops too much.


It's normal and expected. That 's the point of adding the Ascorbic Acid so that compounds remain stable and don't interact between each other. Once you add the fertilizer in your tank it will dilute to the point that PH of the fertilizer is pretty much irrelevant.


----------



## Andy Taylor

Hanuman said:


> JESUS can't even finish typing already 2 posts down!


Dont worry we all know you like taking your time


----------



## X3NiTH

I use 0.25g Ascorbic Acid in 450ml of RO/DI for a pH of 3.2


----------



## lidz87

hi all. having trouble with this. when i open the file (tried on both my pc's) I'm greeted with 'excel found unreadable content in ifc-fert-cal-v1.09br do you want to recover the contents of this workbook? if you trust this workbook, click yes'

after clicking yes the program opens but does not work properly. it allows me to enter tank volumes etc but when trying to run the target calculator 'which one' (item 2) the drop down box is blank. then the program crashes.

I'm guessing nobody here is a computer expert but wasn't sure if it had actually become corrupt on here?

I'm using Microsoft excel 2007.

cheers
Martyn


----------



## Hanuman

Hi. Have a read of the technical notes in the OP. Your answer is there 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## lidz87

Thanks for the reply. Will try to find a newer version of excel cheers


----------



## Hanuman

Calculator has been updated to < v1.1br >. There has been one important fix. Details of the changes are provided in the Change Log in the OP. I recommend everyone to use this version.

As always if you have any comment or question please let us know.


----------



## Zeus.

Sorry about the need for another update so soon - the SO4 ppms reported for the various hydrates of Mg SO4: xH2O and CaSO4: xH2O was incorrect . The Ca, Mg and GH was correct.
Thanks goes to @Happi for spotting the error


----------



## aquariumshed

Hi Everyone
Shameless plug, but I've created a video about this calculator with the kind permission and support of Zeus and Hanuman. Thanks, guys!!

I imagine it won't be quite as useful to more experienced forum members since I've tried to simplify the calculator to make it fairly beginner-friendly (I hope!), but thought it was worth sharing and should be a useful resource for new people exploring dry salts for the first time. 
Cheers!

Video here:


----------



## Zeus.

aquariumshed said:


> Hi everyone. Shameless plug, but I've created a video about this calculator with the kind permission and support of Zeus and Hanuman. Thanks guys!!
> 
> I imagine it won't be quite as useful to more experienced forum members since I've tried to simplify the calculator to make it fairly beginner friendly (I hope!), but thought it was worth sharing and should be a useful resource for new people exploring dry salts for the first time. Cheers!
> 
> Video here:



Very nice overview of what can be a fairly complex/confusing process, any thing that helps folk start the DIY route is an asset to the hobby - well done


----------



## aquariumshed

Zeus. said:


> Very nice overview of what can be a fairly complex/confusing process, any thing that helps folk start the DIY route is an asset to the hobby - well done


Thanks so much, really happy to help in any way I can. So pleased with how everything is going since switching to dry salts. Can't believe I didn't switch sooner! 👍


----------



## swyftfeet

aquariumshed said:


> Thanks so much, really happy to help in any way I can. So pleased with how everything is going since switching to dry salts. Can't believe I didn't switch sooner! 👍


Dry salts were my first go.   I had a little difficulty with the IFC calculator.  So I went with what the website from the supplier suggested for weights Post 79 in my journal.   Some of the NPK precipitated on me and I was a bit miffed.    

I am a very visual learner,  your video helped a lot.  Im gonna give it a go on the next round, so thank you!


----------



## Aleman

Well hello all,  I'm the noob  Have had a 30 year gap from keeping fish, and I took a little bit of time planning my planted tank, having never had much luck with plants in the past, although I grow algae really well 😭. I'm not "new" to water chemistry, as I am a dedicated beer craft brewer, and have advised on water treatment to several fora and commercial microbreweries. I found this place from the Barre Report, and used the Rotala Butterfly calculator to determine my EI dosing levels, then I saw a post from Zeus about the IFC calculator, and here I am 

From my "Noob" perspective the calculator is pretty easy to use, and, ATM, to my eye, looks damned accurate ... or perhaps I should say, agrees with Rotala Butterfly, and the great thing about the IFC is that I can use it to determine GH/KH levels for remineralising my RODI water.

However I do have a small request, would it be possible to add di potassium phosphate to the calculator?

Keep up the good work


----------



## Hanuman

Gald the calculator has been of use.
@Zeus. is also working on a specific RemiCalculator sheet for the IFC calculator but he has been busy lately. Once he is done it, it will be my turn to sprinkle some magic powder on it. This said the "BespokeRemi (R)" option in the TargetCalculator can be used as a proxy for that in the meantime.


Aleman said:


> However I do have a small request, would it be possible to add di potassium phosphate to the calculator?


Well there is Monopotassium Phosphate (also known as monobasic potassium phosphate) already in the calculator. Isn't that what you want?


----------



## Hanuman

I realized I miss read your post. You were asking for dipotassium phosphate. Any reason why you want to use K2HPO4 instead of KH2PO4?


----------



## Aleman

Hanuman said:


> Gald the calculator has been of use.
> @Zeus. is also working on a specific RemiCalculator sheet for the IFC calculator but he has been busy lately. Once he is done it, it will be my turn to sprinkle some magic powder on it. This said the "BespokeRemi (R)" option in the TargetCalculator can be used as a proxy for that in the meantime.
> 
> Well there is Monopotassium Phosphate (also known as monobasic potassium phosphate) already in the calculator. Isn't that what you want?


Fraid not ... I use K₂HPO₄ rather than KH₂PO₄ . ... Why ? I know that EI dosing is based on always oversupplying nutrients, but given my experience with high phosphate levels in the past (via water supply) then I'm going for the lower end of the phosphate range, and also for nitrate, as low nitrate levels promote deeper reds in red plants ... as soon as I can stop my Alternanthera reinekii from melting away  ... The ludwigia is growing well though


----------



## Hanuman

Aleman said:


> Fraid not ... I use K₂HPO₄ rather than KH₂PO₄ . ... Why ? I know that EI dosing is based on always oversupplying nutrients,


Not sure how the use of dipotassium phosphate will decrease the amount of phosphate you want in your tank. You just need to target a lower ppm value of phosphate when preparing your fert when using monopotassium phosphate. Dipotassium phosphate simply adds more K instead.



Aleman said:


> given my experience with high phosphate


How high are we talking here? I think the high phosphate being a bad thing for tanks is yet another myth. My tank runs at 8.4ppm phosphate and all I see is happy plants, happy fish and happy me, and I am far from being the only one.



Aleman said:


> low nitrate levels promote deeper reds in red plants


Yes nitrate limitation will tend to improve red coloration in plants but my say on that is that it is far more important to understand and clearly master your light and CO2 before playing the alchemist. You can get plants pretty red with light alone.


----------



## Aleman

Hanuman said:


> Not sure how the use of dipotassium phosphate will decrease the amount of phosphate you want in your tank. You just need to target a lower ppm value of phosphate when preparing your fert when using monopotassium phosphate. Dipotassium phosphate simply adds more K instead


Understood, completely, but if I want to add half the phosphate, and maintain the level of potassium, without increasing nitrate using KNO3 ... dipotassium nitrate fits the bill perfectly.

I can't recall phosphate levels off hand, but it was in excess of 10ppm from the tap ... and varied drastically in spring and autumn when fertiliser wash off from the fields entered the water courses


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


Aleman said:


> Understood, completely, but if I want to add half the phosphate, and maintain the level of potassium, without increasing nitrate using KNO3 ... dipotassium nitrate fits the bill perfectly.


That makes sense. 


Aleman said:


> I can't recall phosphate levels off hand, but it was in excess of 10ppm from the tap


It will be lower than that, probably by <"an order of magnitude">. 

It is really difficult to find accurate information. Because there isn't a regulatory limit for PO4--- in tap water you water company doesn't have to report the level, it can't be in breach of the <"regulatory limit"> for tap water, there isn't one. 

You can find figures for <"waste water"> & natural water bodies, and they  make fairly grisly reading. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Aleman

Aleman said:


> dipotassium nitrate fits the bill perfectly.


Damn! That should read dipotassium phosphate of course!


----------



## Hufsa

Aleman said:


> However I do have a small request, would it be possible to add di potassium phosphate to the calculator?


I think it could be worth to keep in mind that dipotassium phosphate is a base, so maybe this should be taken into account when acidifying the solution. This could be especially important in an all in one solution with iron I reckon.



Aleman said:


> Damn! That should read dipotassium phosphate of course!


I was about to ask 😅


----------



## Hanuman

Aleman said:


> but if I want to add half the phosphate, and maintain the level of potassium, without increasing nitrate using KNO3 ... dipotassium nitrate fits the bill perfectly.


Gotcha. In the meantime, checkout Rotala Butterfly | Planted Aquarium Nutrient Dosing Calculator. They have the Dipotassium phosphate. We might add it on a future release. I will disscuss with Zeus. Maybe there was a reason why we didn't add it but I can't remember.


----------



## Aleman

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> That makes sense.
> 
> It will be lower than that, probably by <"an order of magnitude">.
> 
> It is really difficult to find accurate information. Because there isn't a regulatory limit for PO4--- in tap water you water company doesn't have to report the level, it can't be in breach of the <"regulatory limit"> for tap water, there isn't one.
> 
> You can find figures for <"waste water"> & natural water bodies, and they  make fairly grisly reading.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Thanks Darrel, Actually those phosphate leves were as measured by a lab using a colimator, in this case for brewing reasons. Phosphate in brewing liquor can cause some issues with the process. Trying to reproduce a beer in spring and autumn was hit and miss, compared to summer and winter. When we did the brewing ion analysis on a month by month basis  it was enlightening by how much things varied. Phosphate was 0.2mg/l or less during winter months but hit in excess of 10mg/l in spring,! Autumn wasn't quite so bad.


Hufsa said:


> I think it could be worth to keep in mind that dipotassium phosphate is a base, so maybe this should be taken into account when acidifying the solution. This could be especially important in an all in one solution with iron I reckon.


Thanks, keeping Macro and micro separate for the moment, just coming out of new tank syndrome as far as algae issues are concerned. Trying to do too many things to quickly really caused issues. Stopped playing with light intensity/colour and photo-period, and started using nutrients *properly*, rather than trying to keep them at a minimum level. Things are slowly improving (_Patience, must you learn, young padauan_!)


Hanuman said:


> @Aleman Checkout Rotala Butterfly | Planted Aquarium Nutrient Dosing Calculator They have the Dipotassium phosphate. We might add dipotassium phosphate on a future release. I will disscuss with Zeus. Maybe there was a reason why we didn't add it but I can't remember.


That was the calculator I used to calculate my additions for Macro and Micro ferts, I just wanted to sanity check the numbers it gave me, normally that would be done by my pet chemist, but she is currently to busy with work to "Run the numbers" ... I actually prefer the IFC display  of the results though.


----------



## Hanuman

Aleman said:


> actually prefer the IFC display of the results though.


Good to hear. The IFC calculator allows you to keep all the calculations. With Rotala you have to start over and over again and again with each compound and then add everything up. It makes the process pretty slow.


----------



## Hanuman

Working hard for everyone here. Don't you go saying I don't . Happy Sunday to everyone.


----------



## Zeus.

Aleman said:


> I actually prefer the IFC display of the results though.


Thank you for the feedback 😁, like Hanni said its all on one page which is a big plus IMO. This was always the aim everything on one page. The only downside of everything on on page is when folk new to ferts see it all at once 🤯🤯🤯and so many salts to choose from 😬. I see it like when I use to game, on first release of game ( or beta release) there is a lot to take in, however you soon master it and it all makes sense


----------



## MichaelJ

Feature request: An optional 'Estimated TDS' column in the remin / IFC caluclator.  This is relevant for hobbyist who keep sensitive livestock and need to know what the TDS from the compounds of choice approximately adds up to (this can only be an estimate due to varying ionic conductivity). See this thread for further info.   

Cheers,
Michael


----------



## plantnoobdude

MichaelJ said:


> Feature request: An optional 'Estimated TDS' column in the remin / IFC caluclator.  This is relevant for hobbyist who keep sensitive livestock and need to know what the TDS from the compounds of choice approximately adds up to (this can only be a estimate due to varying ionic conductivity). See this thread for further info.
> 
> Cheers,
> Michael


this will be very useful since you can check the tds for just remineraliser, then check tank water.
say remineralised water (no npk) is 90ppm
and tank water is 100ppm
and you dose 10no3, 1 po4 and 4K
then assuming nutrient uptake is the same beteen separate nutrients you can calculate
6.6ppm No3, 0.66 po4, 2.6 K estimate in-tank values


----------



## Hanuman

Hello Everyone,

We are looking for beta testers for the upcoming updated version of the IFC calculator. I am looking for people who can spend some time tinkering with the calculator and hunt for bugs (any sort of bug, either math, visual or logic). Ideally beta testers need to be acquainted with the calculator and are naturally inclined to nitpick 😉🤓. Humor aside, the more feedback we get the better/more reliable the calculator gets so don't be afraid to report even minute details, faults, errors. At this stage we are not looking to implement additional features or make drastic changes to the appearance of the calculator, so keep that in mind. This is not a call for features.

Anyone who is interested please send me a PM and we will take it from there.


----------



## Hanuman

Only 1 beta/alpha tester so far. No one else really?


----------



## MichaelJ

Hi @Hanuman , could you please specify the systems  (Excel version? etc) requirements. (Some might not know).

Cheers
Michael


----------



## Hanuman

@MichaelJ All details are in the OP in the Technical notes 😎


----------



## MichaelJ

Hanuman said:


> @MichaelJ All details are in the OP in the Technical notes 😎


Right on! Sometimes it’s just good to remind people.      I PM’ed you btw.


----------



## Hanuman

Calculator has been updated to v1.2b1. Download link is in the Op. Main new feature is the addition of the Remineralizer Calculator.
For a complete list of changes refer to the '*Change Log to IFC calculator and OP*' spoiler at the bottom of the OP.
Thanks to @Aleman  and @MichaelJ for beta testing the calculator before release and providing valuable feedback.


----------



## Wookii

Hanuman said:


> Calculator has been updated to v1.2b1. Download link is in the Op. Main new feature is the addition of the Remineralizer Calculator.
> For a complete list of changes refer to the '*Change Log to IFC calculator and OP*' spoiler at the bottom of the OP.
> Thanks to @Aleman  and @MichaelJ for beta testing the calculator before release and providing valuable feedback.


 
Great work as always @Hanuman and @Zeus. - this remin calc is an epic addition!!!

Does this mean you're now freed up to implement an option for increased water change frequencies (> 1x per week) on the dosing calcs? _cough cough_


----------



## Hanuman

Wookii said:


> Great work as always @Hanuman and @Zeus. - this remin calc is an epic addition!!!


Thanks for the kind words.


Wookii said:


> Does this mean you're now freed up to implement an option for increased water change frequencies (> 1x per week) on the dosing calcs? _cough cough_


How to put this nicely... riiighttttt.🤣


----------



## Wookii

Hanuman said:


> How to put this nicely... riiighttttt.🤣


----------



## Zeus.

Wookii said:


> Great work as always @Hanuman and @Zeus. - this remin calc is an epic addition!!!



Thanks for the kind words , the remin calculator has been some time in the doing on and off.


Wookii said:


> Does this mean you're now freed up to implement an option for increased water change frequencies (> 1x per week) on the dosing calcs?



Don't think there will be any new features for some time. Both myself and @Hanuman have other commitments to take care off, which tend to take a back seat when when doing the calculator. Plus doing the calculator sucks up loads of time. It will be just 'bug/errors' updates for some time. If something can be done easily then that's another story, but the chances of an easy new feature are slim IMO


----------



## Hanuman

Calculator updated to v1.2b2. Download link is in the OP.
Minor fix to conditional formatting in the ReminCalculator. A warning was not showing to user in the event the in-tank solubility of a compound was reached.


----------



## JacksonL

Thanks for the update! appreciate the work involved!
Quick question for @Hanuman , do you use the calc for front loading ferts? if so what is the most efficient way to do so?


----------



## Hanuman

JacksonL said:


> Quick question for @Hanuman , do you use the calc for front loading ferts? if so what is the most efficient way to do so?


Yes I definitely do! In fact you just caught me prepping my next batch on the calculator. I am doing some minor changes to my K ppm dosing.
If you want to front load then it's like when remineralizing. You are dosing the WC volume not the tank volume. Therefore in the TankAndDosing sheet I input the WC volume in place of the Tank volume. Like so:



100L is my WC volume. My tank volume is 150L or thereabout. Then go about and use the TargetCalculator to target your desired ppm for each element.

Did I answer the question?


----------



## JacksonL

Hanuman said:


> Yes I definitely do! In fact you just caught me prepping my next batch on the calculator. I am doing some minor changes to my K ppm dosing.
> If you want to front load then it's like when remineralizing. You are dosing the WC volume not the tank volume. Therefore in the TankAndDosing sheet I input the WC volume in place of the Tank volume. Like so:
> View attachment 189593
> 100L is my WC volume. My tank volume is 150L or thereabout. Then go about and use the TargetCalculator to target your desired ppm for each element.
> 
> Did I answer the question?


certainly did, thanks mate


----------



## Hanuman

Quick note. Front load only the Macros/Remin. (NO3, PO4, K, Mg, Ca). Micros are dosed daily so for those you need to use the Tank volume for calculations.


----------



## Aleman

Hanuman said:


> Quick note. Front load only the Macros/Remin. (NO3, PO4, K, Mg, Ca). Micros are dosed daily so for those you need to use the Tank volume for calculations.


Quick Tip: set up separate tanks for different water change volumes ... Sometimes I do the 50% water change, sometimes (like now) it's 75% and very occasionally it's 66% ... Of course if you are dosing 20 different tanks already, that could be a problem


----------



## hypnogogia

Hanuman said:


> You are dosing the WC volume not the tank volume.


Why is that then, rather than for the whole tank?


----------



## hypnogogia

I'm struggling to set up for multiple tanks.  Following the above, tat wet front loading, I should only fertilise for the replacement water, I'm trying to set up Macro for 130 Litres of water, and Micro for 270 Litres of water.  When I click on multiple tanks and enter the information, as well as the ratios on the target calculator sheet, it doesn't seem to calculate the quantity of dry salts that I need to add.


----------



## Hanuman

hypnogogia said:


> Why is that then, rather than for the whole tank?


If you front load by using the full tank volume and do 50% WC or even 60% or in fact any % below 100% what do you think will happen ?  Accumulation baby!!
By dosing the WC volume you basically guarantee that you are maintaining equivalent amount of ppm in the tank from one week to the other. In other words you bypass the accumulation phase. This is what happens when you dose daily using the tank volume as a reference. Then do an X% WC then start dosing again... accumulation happens week after week. A lot of people are still clueless about this.


----------



## Hanuman

hypnogogia said:


> I'm struggling to set up for multiple tanks.  Following the above, tat wet front loading, I should only fertilise for the replacement water, I'm trying to set up Macro for 130 Litres of water, and Micro for 270 Litres of water.  When I click on multiple tanks and enter the information, as well as the ratios on the target calculator sheet, it doesn't seem to calculate the quantity of dry salts that I need to add.


Not sure I understand the problem. Can you post some screenshots ?


----------



## GreggZ

Hanuman said:


> A lot of people are still clueless about this.


This is true.

And most don't understand how the water change percentage affects accumulation.

There is simple formula to calculate the theoretical maximum accumulation of fertilizers. It's the weekly ppm divided by the water change percentage.

So let's take NO3. If someone is dosing 20 ppm weekly, this is how water change percentage affects accumulation.

20 ppm weekly at 25% water change is 20 ppm/0.25 = is 80 ppm max NO3 accumulation.
20 ppm weekly at 50% water change is 20 ppm/0.50 = is 40 ppm max NO3 accumulation.
20 ppm weekly at 75% water change is 20 ppm/0.75 = is 26.66 ppm max NO3 accumulation.

Our focus should not be on the amount dosed, but on the eventual accumulation. If we dose based on the water we remove/replace with a water change, then we remove the water change percentage from the equation.

So if we want our max accumulation to be 25 ppm, then we dose all new incoming water to 25 ppm, regardless of the water change percentage. Remove 50 gallons, dose 50 gallons to 25 ppm.

I hope that make sense. Understanding this could help a lot of people understand dosing better.


----------



## hypnogogia

Hanuman said:


> Not sure I understand the problem. Can you post some screenshots ?


Ive just upgraded to the latest version and it seems to be working now.  Thanks


----------



## hypnogogia

Hanuman said:


> If you front load by using the full tank volume and do 50% WC or even 60% or in fact any % below 100% what do you think will happen ?  Accumulation baby!!
> By dosing the WC volume you basically guarantee that you are maintaining equivalent amount of ppm in the tank from one week to the other. In other words you bypass the accumulation phase. This is what happens when you dose daily using the tank volume as a reference. Then do an X% WC then start dosing again... accumulation happens week after week. A lot of people are still clueless about this.


So are you saying that the rate of accumulation is different if we dose the same amount daily when compared to dosing everything in one go front loaded?


----------



## Hanuman

hypnogogia said:


> So are you saying that the rate of accumulation is different if we dose the same amount daily when compared to dosing everything in one go front loaded?


It's not whether you front load or  dose daily that induces accumulation. It's the fact that you add an X amount of ferts to a volume but then only remove X-x% of that amount from the same volume with a WC. In contrast, when you use the WC volume as a reference to dose you are merely replacing what you removed or there about when you do a WC. It's the same principle as when you remineralize.



hypnogogia said:


> Ive just upgraded to the latest version and it seems to be working now. Thanks


If you were using single digit numbers as tank names then I am not surprised it was not working. There was a bug in the Multiple Tank Database (Optional) dropdown list formula which was fixed in v1.2b1.


----------



## hypnogogia

Hanuman said:


> It's not whether you front load or dose daily that induces accumulation. It's the fact that you add an X amount of ferts to a volume but then only remove X-x% of that amount from the same volume with a WC. In contrast, when you use the WC volume as a reference to dose you are merely replacing what you removed or there about when you do a WC. It's the same principle as when you remineralize.


This all makes sense.  However, it talks me back to my original point and a question I guess more broadly about the use of EI:  if we are happy enough to have accumulation when we dose on a daily basis, why do we try to eliminate it when front loading by only dosing for the replacement water?  Perhaps this is the wrong  thread for this discussion.


----------



## Hanuman

hypnogogia said:


> This all makes sense.  However, it talks me back to my original point and a question I guess more broadly about the use of EI:  if we are happy enough to have accumulation when we dose on a daily basis, why do we try to eliminate it when front loading by only dosing for the replacement water?  Perhaps this is the wrong  thread for this discussion.


You can technically front load on any regime, it's not EI specific. The prime objective of front loading is not to eliminate accumulation. It is to provide the tank with a stable TDS. When you front load you are basically putting back what you took out. This means that your TDS remains the same before and after a WC. It will slightly drop during the week due to plant and bacteria uptake but if you have fish they will also add some, so all in all, your TDS shouldn't move too much. The theory is that plants will not see any difference from before a WC and after a WC in terms of nutrients level since you are maintaining the same levels. That's the whole idea behind front loading. Stability. Not accumulation. Not EI related. Some also split the front loading in 2x which provides even greater stability.
Hopefully that answers it. Well at least that's my take of it.


----------



## JacksonL

GreggZ said:


> Our focus should not be on the amount dosed, but on the eventual accumulation.


this is the way of thinking that gave me a eureka moment when playing around with your accumulation spreadsheet.
Front loading takes away the water change variable and you just ‘dose’ your projected accumulation.


----------



## GreggZ

JacksonL said:


> this is the way of thinking that gave me a eureka moment when playing around with your accumulation spreadsheet.
> Front loading takes away the water change variable and you just ‘dose’ your projected accumulation.


Exactly. The funny thing is that the way most report dosing has little to do with the eventual levels in the water column. Like I said, that should really be the focus. And in general plants hate change and like stability. This is true regardless of the actual nutrient levels. Wild swings are rough on many plants.


----------



## GoldnWlf

Hi. I believe I found a bug in the v.1.2b2 calculator.  In the CoreSettings tab-Water Report section, the cell to enter your CH value is password protected.  The other cells in the Water Report section are able to have numbers entered and seem to be fine.   As far as I can tell, the only problem is the CH value cell.   I am using Excel 365 on Windows.


----------



## Hanuman

GoldnWlf said:


> Hi. I believe I found a bug in the v.1.2b2 calculator.  In the CoreSettings tab-Water Report section, the cell to enter your CH value is password protected.  The other cells in the Water Report section are able to have numbers entered and seem to be fine.   As far as I can tell, the only problem is the CH value cell.   I am using Excel 365 on Windows.


Excellent. Thank you for spotting this. This needs immediate attention and I will correct it ASAP and release a new version today. Good opportunity to integrate other less critical bugs I have already corrected. I was waiting for something bigger to show!! 🙏


----------



## Hufsa

Hanuman said:


> Good opportunity to integrate other less critical bugs I have already corrected. I was waiting for something bigger to show!! 🙏


Would this then be a good time to make a small request? 
Could we have one more decimal place on iron without it rounding in the DIY trace calculator?
My latest micro uses three iron sources and because of this the total amounts ended up pretty low. For example if it could display 0.025 instead of correcting to 0.03?


----------



## Hanuman

Hufsa said:


> Could we have one more decimal place on iron without it rounding in the DIY trace calculator?
> My latest micro uses three iron sources and because of this the total amounts ended up pretty low. For example if it could display 0.025 instead of correcting to 0.03?






?


----------



## Hufsa

Hanuman said:


> ?


How strange, it doesnt do that for me. Im using the latest version with file name IFC-Fert-Calculator_v1.2b2
I am opening it in OneDrive though

I write my desired number:




But once I submit it rounds to 0,03


----------



## Hanuman

I meant if that is what you wanted. It was a question 
If you note though if you input 3 decimals it will still take into account the third decimal if you look at the end of the table


----------



## Hufsa

Hanuman said:


> I meant if that is what you wanted. It was a question


The question was somewhat left open to interpretation 😅
But, yes that is exactly it!
Thank you 😃😃


----------



## Hanuman

Calculator has been updated to v1.2b3. Download link is in the OP as well as the Change Log.
Have fun ladies and gentlemen.


----------



## Hufsa




----------



## Hufsa

Hanuman said:


> ​
> *[24 May 2022]* Updated to v.1.2b1. This update covers the following fixes/upgrades/improvements:
> 
> Decreased by half ascorbic acid amounts in calculators



Sorry for the bother but I am curious about this bit in the change log, what was the reason behind it?


----------



## Zeus.

Hufsa said:


> Sorry for the bother but I am curious about this bit in the change log, what was the reason behind it?


The change log is just  historical log of what's been changed/updated/modified with each version. We find it very useful at times.


----------



## Hufsa

Zeus. said:


> The change log is just  historical log of what's been changed/updated/modified with each version. We find it very useful at times.


I understand that part, I was wondering the reason behind the halving of the ascorbic dose, has the general view on the required amount changed or ?


----------



## Hanuman

Hufsa said:


> Sorry for the bother but I am curious about this bit in the change log, what was the reason behind it?





Hufsa said:


> I understand that part, I was wondering the reason behind the halving of the ascorbic dose, has the general view on the required amount changed or ?


Simply put, it was unnecessary to have that much Ascorbic acid. Half the quantity of the initially prescribed dose does the job at reducing the PH to around 3.5. To appease your thoughts, it does not matter a single bit if you added the previous recommended dosage. You just provided more vitamin C to your fish 😂
In fact It just so happens that I was using an old version of the IFC calculator when I made up my concoction yesterday and forgot about this update and I added the old dose (0.5gr/500ml). I'll make sure to add half next time.


----------



## Hufsa

Hanuman said:


> Half the quantity of the initially prescribed dose does the job at reducing the PH to around 3.5.


Ah, that makes sense then, thank you for explaining it for me


----------



## Zeus.

Hufsa said:


> I understand that part, I was wondering the reason behind the halving of the ascorbic dose, has the general view on the required amount changed or ?


, sorry misread the post .  As @Hanuman posted. It was @X3NiTH that brought it to our attention. Sorry it was mentioned on release it must of 'slipped though the net'


----------



## X3NiTH

0.25g/500ml into 0TDS water is the amount needed to attain the greatest pH change for the least acid added so that after addition of all the other salts the final pH of the solution should be in range to ensure all typical Iron chelates and unchelated metals are kept in a plant available form.

Adding just a little more than is needed may not be detrimental but the more compound you add there is an increased likelihood of possible precipitative reactions within the final mixture.


----------



## Jake5tar

The figures appear to be incorrect for the APF UK EI starter kit. Manufacturer instructions state a ratio of 4-1-6 teaspoons of KNO3, KH2PO4, MGSO4 respectively. Roughly 40g-5g-15g.
This option on the calculator computes:
19.02g KNO3 (roughly 4 teaspoons)
5.02 gKH2PO4 (roughly 1 teaspoon)
57.46g for MGSO4 - which is more like 12 teaspoons.


----------



## Hufsa

Was meaning to post this yesterday, I finally took a look at the new remineralizer module  (bit late I know) and I couldnt find Calcium sulphate hemihydrate in the main calcium selection or in the hydrate options in CoreSettings.
I asked @dw1305 about my Calcium sulphate a long time ago and apparently the hemihydrate is what I have.
If this isnt an error on my part im sorry for not getting involved when beta testers were called for, I didnt think I had anything to contribute with but I should have volunteered, lesson learned.

If this is something that would be added to the Calculator then its definitely not a critical need as I can continue using rotala calc for the time being


----------



## Hanuman

Jake5tar said:


> The figures appear to be incorrect for the APF UK EI starter kit. Manufacturer instructions state a ratio of 4-1-6 teaspoons of KNO3, KH2PO4, MGSO4 respectively. Roughly 40g-5g-15g.
> This option on the calculator computes:
> 19.02g KNO3 (roughly 4 teaspoons)
> 5.02 gKH2PO4 (roughly 1 teaspoon)
> 57.46g for MGSO4 - which is more like 12 teaspoons.


I will look into this.


Hufsa said:


> Was meaning to post this yesterday, I finally took a look at the new remineralizer module  (bit late I know) and I couldnt find Calcium sulphate hemihydrate in the main calcium selection or in the hydrate options in CoreSettings.
> I asked @dw1305 about my Calcium sulphate a long time ago and apparently the hemihydrate is what I have.
> If this isnt an error on my part im sorry for not getting involved when beta testers were called for, I didnt think I had anything to contribute with but I should have volunteered, lesson learned.
> 
> If this is something that would be added to the Calculator then its definitely not a critical need as I can continue using rotala calc for the time being


What tells you that you have the hemihydrate form? Is it on the label?
I looked in the backend and I noticed that the hemihydrate is actually there but we never activated it. Hemihydrate is more commonly called plaster of paris I think. There is probably a good reason why we didn't activate it but I can't remember the exact reason now. While doing a quick search I found that the hemihydrate form actually has 2 sub-forms. The α-hemihydrate and β-hemihydrate. Both having a different solubility. Wondering if this is not the reason. I will think about it today and do some more research on why.


----------



## Hanuman

Jake5tar said:


> The figures appear to be incorrect for the APF UK EI starter kit. Manufacturer instructions state a ratio of 4-1-6 teaspoons of KNO3, KH2PO4, MGSO4 respectively. Roughly 40g-5g-15g.
> This option on the calculator computes:
> 19.02g KNO3 (roughly 4 teaspoons)
> 5.02 gKH2PO4 (roughly 1 teaspoon)
> 57.46g for MGSO4 - which is more like 12 teaspoons.


1. What version of the calculator are you using?
2. Which calculator are you using? (target, DIY, remin?)
3. Please post the dosing regime you used. 

Thank you.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,





Jake5tar said:


> ......This option on the calculator computes:
> 19.02g KNO3 (roughly 4 teaspoons)
> 5.02 gKH2PO4 (roughly 1 teaspoon)
> 57.46g for MGSO4 - which is more like 12 teaspoons.


I can't check at the moment, but I'm guessing that the difference occurs because of the "water of crystallization". 

What this means is that "MgSO4" is actually the heptahydrate "MgSO4.7H2O" or Epsom Salts and only 10% magnesium (Mg).

Cheers Darrel


----------



## Zeus.

Jake5tar said:


> The figures appear to be incorrect for the APF UK EI starter kit. Manufacturer instructions state a ratio of 4-1-6 teaspoons of KNO3, KH2PO4, MGSO4 respectively. Roughly 40g-5g-15g.
> This option on the calculator computes:
> 19.02g KNO3 (roughly 4 teaspoons)
> 5.02 gKH2PO4 (roughly 1 teaspoon)
> 57.46g for MGSO4 - which is more like 12 teaspoons.


Looking into this and it looks like its down to an old calculation done by myself for my own personal use pre 2018. That's before the idea of doing a fert calculator hadn't even crossed my mind. Then the incorrect values 'ppms' was just accepted as correct. Myself and @Hanuman have had a look at the error already and should have a correction out soon.

In our defence we was more focused on other technical issues of the calculator at the time and the ppms of APFUK double check slipped through the net. All my fault .

Well spotted all the same and thanks for bring it to out attention


----------



## Hanuman

Zeus. said:


> Looking into this and it looks like its down to an old calculation done by myself for my own personal use pre 2018. That's before the idea of doing a fert calculator hadn't even crossed my mind. Then the incorrect values 'ppms' was just accepted as correct. Myself and @Hanuman have had a look at the error already and should have a correction out soon.
> 
> In our defence we was more focused on other technical issues of the calculator at the time and the ppms of APFUK double check slipped through the net. All my fault .
> 
> Well spotted all the same and thanks for bring it to out attention


Don't beat yourself up. I'm guilty as charged as well. I've always accepted those values without double checking them myself.

I looked at the old calculation that you are reffering to and those calculation are in fact in perfect line with the guideline of APFUK so I am clueless as to why we have the ppm values in the IFC calculator that we have today. In a way, these values do not look like an error to me since all values are off, although they clearly do not match what APFUK prescribes. There is more to this than meets the eye and will update the calculator once we get to the bottom of this.


----------



## Hanuman

@Jake5tar 
Regarding APFUK EI Starter 1 Kit here is the deal:
- Both @Zeus. and myself wrecked our brains to find out why those numbers were. Since we couldn't come up with a good reason, I simply went through the path of least resistance and I measured the teaspoons in accordance with the guidelines of APFUK. For the sake of homogeneity I did 10 measurements for each salt. Results are shown below:




For anyone willing to prove I'm off, keep in mind that these measurements can be slightly (if not greatly) different for obvious reasons (teaspoon size (yes they can differ), age of salt, leveled or heaped etc etc etc). This is why APFUK clearly states these are *guidelines*. All measurements I took were done standard, that is, I leveled the excess with a card each time I scooped the salt from the container.




This will now serve as a reference for future questions regarding this product. So, like we say during weddings, speak now or forever hold your peace.

As for the request of @Hufsa, we have also added Calcium sulfate hemihydrate (CaSO4)2(H2O) / Ca2H2O9S2 / CaSO4*0.5H2O. By doing so we also uncovered what seems like a bug in the Rotala Butterfly calculator when calculating this hydrate. I am still awaiting @fablau feedback on the matter but I have already 3 sources telling me something is off. 

In the next update we are also adding the following new products. 
APT Sky: remineralizer
Masterline AIO Soil: fertilizer
Masterline AIO Golden: fertilizer
Masterline AIO: fertilizer

I don't see the point in adding other products from Masterline. Those should suffice.

I have already done all the updates and will send the file to @zeus for a final checkup before release.

Any product request at this point will be done in the next update.

Peace.


----------



## Hanuman

Calculator has been updated to v1.2b4. Download link is in the OP as well as the Change Log.
Have fun ladies and gentlemen.

Special thanks to @dw1305 and @X3NiTH as usual for their expert advise and guidance.


----------



## Sluwp

Hello,
I just wanted to say thanks to everyone involved in this project. You managed to make a powerful tool yet still easy to use . I'm  just worried that as an excel spreadsheet it's less "reachable" than if it was on the web or even as a google spreadsheet (but I'm sure there are good reasons for that).

A few comments :

the dropdown for the cell "X dose by" on the page "Targetcalculator" isn't working for me (v1.2b4), other dropdowns are working. Not sure why.
I think there are some inconsistencies in the volumes/prices used by default for the commercial ferts. For instance for Tropica the price set is for the 5L container (lowest £/L), whereas for TNC the price is for the 1L container
I wish there was a way to see the price per ppm for every commercial ferts at a glance. There is already a nice table on the costdetails page but it only shows one commercial fert at a time ?
It would be great if planted box was included in the list of commercial ferts



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maybe the recommended dosages should be displayed in a standardized way in the table "Compare To" in the "Targetcaculator" page.
I don't see the point of including disabled commercial ferts if they cannot be enabled. It's also not clear why there were disabled ?

All in all, excellent job thank you !


----------



## Hanuman

Sluwp said:


> I just wanted to say thanks to everyone involved in this project. You managed to make a powerful tool yet still easy to use .


Thank you for the comments. We tried our best to make it as user friendly as possible.



Sluwp said:


> I'm just worried that as an excel spreadsheet it's less "reachable" than if it was on the web or even as a google spreadsheet (but I'm sure there are good reasons for that).


That’s just the way it is. Anyone with the skills is welcome to port it to the web or even an executable. But excel is where our expertise stopped at the time.



Sluwp said:


> the dropdown for the cell "X dose by" on the page "Targetcalculator" isn't working for me (v1.2b4), other dropdowns are working. Not sure why.


Definately not normal. Will look into this tomorrow.



Sluwp said:


> I think there are some inconsistencies in the volumes/prices used by default for the commercial ferts. For instance for Tropica the price set is for the 5L container (lowest £/L), whereas for TNC the price is for the 1L container


That’s on purpose. We simply took the largest volume advertised by the manufacturer to give the lowest possible price. Not all manufacturers offer the same volumes, hence the inconsistencies.



Sluwp said:


> I wish there was a way to see the price per ppm for every commercial ferts at a glance. There is already a nice table on the costdetails page but it only shows one commercial fert at a time ?


Only showing the selected commercial fertilizer in Targetcalculator was actually something I insisted upon to improve visibility in the CostDetails sheet. Having the full list of ferts doesn’t make much sense IMO from a user standpoint because that table is comparing your clone to the commercial fert your are cloning. This can be argued but to make it more user friendly and less heavy this is why only 1 fert is being shown at a time.



Sluwp said:


> It would be great if planted box was included in the list of commercial ferts


Thanks for the link. We include new ferts when they are requested and if all data is provided by the manufacturer.  Sometimes not all data is available so we just don’t include products. If we include this one it will be mentioned in the change log.



Sluwp said:


> maybe the recommended dosages should be displayed in a standardized way in the table "Compare To" in the "Targetcaculator" page.


How so? Each and every manufacturer has its own dosage regime sometimes with different units. We are only communicating the info made available by the manufacturer. This is purely informational and the user should only dose according to what he has defined in the Tank&Dosing sheet.



Sluwp said:


> I don't see the point of including disabled commercial ferts if they cannot be enabled. It's also not clear why there were disabled ?


They were disabled due to lack of data or because we detected issues later on. Sometimes data becomes available sometimes not. Sometimes issues can be fixed, sometimes not. These disabled products will progressively be deleted once we decide that there is no hope for them.



Sluwp said:


> All in all, excellent job thank you !


Thanks again. Happy it is useful to you. I think many people don’t realize how it is more convenient that other calcultors that spit one calculation at a time and then one has to tally all manually. The IFC calculator does it all in one time.


----------



## Hanuman

@Sluwp 


Sluwp said:


> the dropdown for the cell "X dose by" on the page "Targetcalculator" isn't working for me (v1.2b4), other dropdowns are working. Not sure why.


I found the reason for this. It's technically not a bug because there is actually a line of code I put in place for this to happen when no WC volume was added in the TankAndDosing sheet. However the code was intended for the ReminCalculator and not the TargetCalculator. I need to correct this.
For now simply add some value in either of the cells below and you should regain control of that dropdown menu in the TargetCalculator sheet:


----------



## Chrispowell

First off.. Incredible work 👏 

Could someone do a screen recording and run through this? I got a little lost along the way and thought it might be incredibly helpful to follow along on YouTube?

Many thanks 

Chris


----------



## Hanuman

Chrispowell said:


> First off.. Incredible work 👏
> 
> Could someone do a screen recording and run through this? I got a little lost along the way and thought it might be incredibly helpful to follow along on YouTube?
> 
> Many thanks
> 
> Chris


There is a youtube video already done by @aquariumshed. Look at the OP, I have linked it there. It's not a step by step video but gives overall explanation. In the calculator there is also a sheet called "Guide" which succinctly explains the purpose of each sheet.

Edit: Of course if you have questions please don't hesitate and we will do our best to answer them.


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## Hanuman

Sluwp said:


> It would be great if planted box was included in the list of commercial ferts
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All-in-One: vloeibare aquariumbemesting & plantenvoeding aquarium
> 
> 
> All-in-One, de echte alles-in-1 aquariumbemesting! Bevat alle belangrijke voedingsstoffen: nitraat, fosfaat, ijzer, ... Je planten vinden het heerlijk!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> planted-box.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "A dose of 30ml per 100 liters [Recommended dosage for high tech tanks] of aquarium water gives a value of 0.50ppm Fe, 15ppm nitrate and 1.5ppm phosphate. Ideal for all your plants





Hanuman said:


> Thanks for the link. We include new ferts when they are requested and if all data is provided by the manufacturer. Sometimes not all data is available so we just don’t include products. If we include this one it will be mentioned in the change log.


The manufacturer did not provide information about the potassium and micro content of the product. I believe this to have been a deliberate attempt to prevent others, likes us, from copying it. In view of this situation I don't think it is reasonable to added it to the IFC calculator. This said, there is a plethora of other ferts you can clone already available in the calculator, and to somewhat quote @dw1305, an "ion is an ion" no matter how much you pay for it or where it comes from.


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## Zeus.

Sluwp said:


> All in all, excellent job thank you !


Thank you for your kind words 



Sluwp said:


> I wish there was a way to see the price per ppm for every commercial ferts at a glance. There is already a nice table on the costdetails page but it only shows one commercial fert at a time ?


Something like this 



It is hidden/alpha as it was deemed as to much data on one page and we thought folk didn't find it useful or confusing.
The rest is like Hanni said. Also my thought about having 'disabled ferts/remins is that it shows that we have already looked at them and found there wasn't enough data on them so having them disabled was a prompt to us also that we had already tried to incorporate them and failed.


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## Sluwp

Hanuman said:


> That’s on purpose. We simply took the largest volume proposed by the manufacturer to give the lowest possible price. Not all manufacturers propose the same volumes, hence the inconsistencies.


Well TNC does exist in 5L, for 50-54£.


Hanuman said:


> Only showing the selected commercial
> fertilizer in Targetcalculator was actually something I insisted upon to improve visibility in the CostDetails sheet. Having the full list of ferts doesn’t make much sense IMO from an user standpoint because that table is comparing your clone to the commercial fert your are cloning. This can be argued but to make it more user friendly and less heavy this is why only 1 fert is being shown at a time.


Many people prefer commercial ferts (for various reasons) and I think your tool is very useful to make comparisons. I understand  this was not the original intended usage of the tool. but let me tell you it's almost perfect for that. 


Hanuman said:


> We include new ferts when they are requested and if all data is provided. So if you want it in the next itteration please provide links to the product so we can assess if it can be added. Sometimes not all data is available so we just don’t include products.


I think we have all the data needed but let me know :


Spoiler



Plantedbox All-in-one

"A dose of 30ml per 100 liters [Recommended WEEKLY dosage for high tech tanks] of aquarium water gives a value of 0.50ppm Fe, 15ppm nitrate and 1.5ppm phosphate. "
K : 12ppm at the recommended dosage per week
~54£ /5L
let's assume it doesn't contain Mg






Hanuman said:


> How so? Each and every manufacturer has its own dosage regime sometimes with different units. We are only communicating the info made available by the manufacturer. This is purely informational and the user should only dose according to what he has defined in the Tank&Dosing sheet.


What I was advising is that instead of showing 1mL per 20L for X and 1mL per 50/L for Y, just show 5mL / 2mL per 100L for both. It looks like some work I've already been done since they are all shown as weekly dosage 
By the way I'm not sure I understand the point of adding APT twice for the daily and 4x/week dose in the list of commercial ferts. It's almost the same and I wonderif it's not more confusing than helpful ? One could think he has to chose APT daily if he wants his clone to be dosed daily,.


Zeus. said:


> Something like this
> View attachment 194674
> It is hidden/alpha as it was deemed as to much data on one page and we thought folk didn't find it useful or confusing.


Yes exactly. We can see that APT EI looks expensive at first but it's actually not that bad because it's one of the most concentrated.
Maybe you could add a checkbox like "show all the ferts" but I'm not sure it's doable in excel without using macros (I'm a noob !)

Thanks


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## Hanuman

Sluwp said:


> Well TNC does exist in 5L, for 50-54£.


That information is not on the manufacturer's website as far I am aware. I only see 1L packaging. Maybe retailers are able to obtain 5L packaging from TNC? Please provide a link to those 5L/price so I can update the volume and price.



Sluwp said:


> Many people prefer commercial ferts (for various reasons) and I think your tool is very useful to make comparisons. I understand this was not the original intended usage of the tool. but let me tell you it's almost perfect for that.


Nothing is perfect in life although we strive for it.  Every table on the IFC calculator has its own logic flow. The logic of that table is to compare a clone to its commercial counterpart. In principal, final and accurate values in that table are shown as long as a clone AND all compounds forming the said clone are selected. The idea is that the user would only go and check the CostDetails sheet after he has basically finished making his "recipe" so he can compare it to the commercial fert he used as basis for cloning. That's the frame-logic of that table. So, having that table show all the other commercial ferts would change its rational. It's not wrong, just not the way we envision it. This said, if you are good at excel and hacking, you could crack the password and unhide all the rows in that table which are currently hidden with all the info you want. That's how I got onboard in this project... by hacking the file 🤣



Sluwp said:


> I think we have all the data needed but let me know :
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Plantedbox All-in-one
> 
> "A dose of 30ml per 100 liters [Recommended WEEKLY dosage for high tech tanks] of aquarium water gives a value of 0.50ppm Fe, 15ppm nitrate and 1.5ppm phosphate. "
> K : 12ppm at the recommended dosage per week
> ~54£ /5L
> let's assume it doesn't contain Mg


I rechecked this morning again and I see no mention of K content in either the Dutch or the French version of the manufacturer's website for the All-in-One "Estimative Index":







This said yesterday I did not check the All-in-one "Lean dosing" version of that product and it does seem to provide the K content. Micro are still missing though although this is not a big deal IMO.



I see that the manufacturer says that the guaranteed analysis is provided on the bottle sticker. If you have access to that sticker that would be very helpful as I suspect it also contains information on the micro side. That would be the holy grail as we could have the full information.



Sluwp said:


> What I was advising is that instead of showing 1mL per 20L for X and 1mL per 50/L for Y, just show 5mL / 2mL per 100L for both. It looks like some work I've already been done since they are all shown as weekly dosage


I understood what you were saying and why you are saying it. Here also, there is rational behind this choice. The reason it is the way it is, is because it is straightforward for a user to go and double check with the manufacturer the dosing rather than having him/her convert/recalculate a dosing that we would have modified for the sake of homogeneity, which in all honestly I don't see much of a benefit in doing so. The user is not using the IFC calculator for its commercial fert database, but rather for its ability to clone them . The only adjustment that was sometimes made was to show weekly dosing values, as that is how most, if not all people, think in terms of dosing. And anyway, manufacturers also often provide the weekly dosing as well or hint at it by saying how many times per week one needs to dose. This information is purely a reflection of what the manufacturers make public. What is actually important is the actual content of each element provided by each of these fertilizers on a weekly basis. The quantity added per water volume is actually meaningless for our purpose since it's just more or less water and what we are comparing between the fertilizer is the element content. We did not want to modify (or the least possible) what manufacturers share to the public. Hopefully that explains why it is the way it is .



Sluwp said:


> By the way I'm not sure I understand the point of adding APT twice for the daily and 4x/week dose in the list of commercial ferts. It's almost the same and I wonderif it's not more confusing than helpful ? One could think he has to chose APT daily if he wants his clone to be dosed daily,.


Not much to be honest. More like for convenience as APT provides both regimes so I thought it would be neet to have both. This is more like both @Zeus. and myself being overly geeks more than anything else 



Sluwp said:


> Maybe you could add a checkbox like "show all the ferts" but I'm not sure it's doable in excel without using macros (I'm a noob !)


Not possible as is because the file is protected, and as you hinted, it would require VBA coding (in other words, a macro) and as you are probably guessing, it is also part of the inception rational of this calculator: not to use any VBA to avoid any security related issues. Excel is not the best plateform as you mentioned earlier, and I agree, so we wanted to add the least amount of barriers for its adoption. Having VBA would have been a MAJOR issue in that regard, although it would have provided way more functionalities and interactiveness.


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## Sluwp

Hanuman said:


> That information is not on the manufacturer's website as far I am aware. I only see 1L packaging. Maybe retailers are able to obtain 5L packaging from TNC? Please provide a link to those 5L/price so I can update the volume and price.











						TNC Complete Aquarium Plant Food Liquid Fertilizer Planted Tank 250 - 5000ml  | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for TNC Complete Aquarium Plant Food Liquid Fertilizer Planted Tank 250 - 5000ml at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products.



					www.ebay.co.uk
				











						TNC Complete - 250ml
					

TNC Complete has ALL the nutrients required for lush, healthy growth in both red and green plants Contains essential Nitrate Phosphate (if N P are




					riverwoodaquatics.co.uk
				











						TNC Complete 5L
					

TNC Complete is an aquatic plant food specially formulated for use in more densely planted aquariums, or for aquariums with few fish. TNC Complete




					www.aquariumgardens.co.uk
				




There is also a 2,5L package.


Hanuman said:


> I rechecked this morning again and I see no mention of K content in either the Dutch or the French version of the manufacturer's website for the All-in-One "Estimative Index":


You're right. The value of K I gave you (12ppm /week for the standard AIO version) is the one that the vendor told me after asking. I don't have the micro content except the Fe.


Hanuman said:


> I understood what you were saying and why you are saying it. Here also, there is rational behind this choice. The reason it is the way it is, is because it is straightforward for a user to go and double check with the manufacturer the dosing rather than having him/her convert/recalculate a dosing that we would have modified for the sake of homogeneity, which in all honestly I don't see much of a benefit in doing so. The user is not using the IFC calculator for its commercial fert database, but rather for its ability to clone them .


The benefit is that this more practical if you want to compare commercial ferts, without changing much for those that don't care about that aspect in my opinion.


Hanuman said:


> Not possible as is because the file is protected, and as you hinted, it would require VBA coding (in other words, a macro) and as you are probably guessing, it is also part of the inception rational of this calculator: not to use any VBA to avoid any security related issues. Excel is not the best plateform as you mentioned earlier, and I agree, so we wanted to add the least amount of barriers for its adoption. Having VBA would have been a MAJOR issue in that regard, although it would have provided way more functionalities and interactiveness.


I think you're right avoiding VBA

Anyway thanks again to both of you for this great tool !


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## Zeus.

Sluwp said:


> I don't have the micro content except the Fe.


We do have the micro content for some of the AIO. I am pretty sure you can see them in the drop down menu in the 'DIY Trace' sheet, when the data was available (thanks to Hanni's great work sorting out the hidden sheet that contains all the regimes and commercial ferts/remin data and works treat IMO) I am away from PC ATM so can't check.


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## Zeus.

Zeus. said:


> We do have the micro content for some of the AIO. I am pretty sure you can see them in the drop down menu in the 'DIY Trace' sheet,


My error, we have the Micro content of many commercial ferts showing in many of the sheets not just the DIY trace


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## Hanuman

Calculator has been updated to v1.2b5. Download link is in the OP as well as the Change Log.
Have fun ladies and gentlemen.
Yours sincerely,
Heisenberg, yo.


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## Beretta

Hi 
I am trying to run the fert calculator but it is password protected. Is this normal plus what is the password?

George


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## Hanuman

Beretta said:


> Hi
> I am trying to run the fert calculator but it is password protected. Is this normal plus what is the password?
> 
> George


Hello George and welcome to UKAPS,

I just downloaded the file to make sure I didn't screw things over on the last update and the file is definitely not password protected for use. The only password protection there is, is to prevent people from mistakenly editing parts of the calculator that are not meant to me modified. Other than that the calculator can be used without any password. I suggest you have a read of the Guide sheet. This will provide general information on how to operate the calculator.

Cheers


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## Hufsa

I have a stupid question 






What is the correct way / format to input in this field?
I have tried a variety of different combinations including the one the calculator seems to suggest and all seem to give an error. 
Ive tried adjusting the limits in settings to outrageous levels as well without any more success.
Im sure it must be something very simple that im missing

Ive tried:
2
2 1
2:1
2 : 1
2,0 : 1,0
2,0 : 1.0
2.0 : 1.0
etc


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## Zeus.

You have entered '7,66' and/or '2,0' - used a comma
It will work when you enter '7.66' and/or '2.0' - use a full stop

I was able to get the same error using a 'comma' and all worked fine when I used a 'full stop'


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## Hanuman

Hufsa said:


> I have a stupid question
> 
> View attachment 197084
> 
> What is the correct way / format to input in this field?
> I have tried a variety of different combinations including the one the calculator seems to suggest and all seem to give an error.
> Ive tried adjusting the limits in settings to outrageous levels as well without any more success.
> Im sure it must be something very simple that im missing
> 
> Ive tried:
> 2
> 2 1
> 2:1
> 2 : 1
> 2,0 : 1,0
> 2,0 : 1.0
> 2.0 : 1.0
> etc


@Zeus. I think the issue is somewhere else since as you can see from her screenshot her Excel is configured to use commas as the radix character for decimal separation. @Hufsa There is no stupid questions. I'm looking at this right now. 
As a side note, and FYI, you just need to input the Ca value as the calculator will automatically add the Mg ratio ( : 1.0 )


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## Hanuman

@Hufsa I pinpointed this to be a specific issue with Excel Online and how it is handling the data validation. This does not occur with a local installation of Excel. One way around this is to input the desired value in the '*Carbonate Hardness dKH'* input field for example, then copy and paste (AS VALUE - *VERY IMPORTANT*) to the '*Ca : Mg ratio'* input field and then delete what you entered in the '*Carbonate Hardness dKH*' field.

Also, and this is intentional, you will not be able to input any value in the '*Ca : Mg ratio'*  input field as long as the '*Ca/Mg Hardness (dGH)'* input field is empty. This is to prevent some runway calculation that was happening if this limitation was not in place.


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## Hanuman

Hanuman said:


> @Zeus. I think the issue is somewhere else since as you can see from her screenshot her Excel is configured to use commas as the radix character for decimal separation. @Hufsa There is no stupid questions. I'm looking at this right now.


I edited the sentence. I said 'dots', I meant 'commas'


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## Hufsa

Hanuman said:


> @Hufsa I pinpointed this to be a specific issue with Excel Online and how it is handling the data validation. This does not occur with a local installation of Excel.


Interesting, that will be the first confirmed issue exclusive to the "online version" then


Hanuman said:


> One way around this is to input the desired value in the '*Carbonate Hardness dKH'* input field for example, then copy and paste (AS VALUE - *VERY IMPORTANT*) to the '*Ca : Mg ratio'* input field and then delete what you entered in the '*Carbonate Hardness dKH*' field.


That worked, thank you very much


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## Hanuman

Hufsa said:


> Interesting, that will be the first confirmed issue exclusive to the "online version" then


The second, which so far is also related to how Excel handles data validation errors. I think I mentionned this in the tutorial thread you created about the IFC calculator although I am not 100% sure. I’m about to sleep and on my mobile so will check tomorrow.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


Hanuman said:


> her screenshot her Excel is configured to use commas as the radix character for decimal separation.


We have had this problem with some of our European students. 

I prepare the files for use with <"R"> as text using "comma separated values" (*.csv), which works really well, as long as everyone uses a decimal point for decimal separation.  You can tell "R" whether you are using a point or a comma, so fine there, but try and open a csv file in Excel with the radix character as a comma? and horrible things happen.

cheers Darrel


----------



## hypnogogia

dw1305 said:


> We have had this problem with some of our European students.


In Germany, for example, a ‘.’ used to signify the multiplication operator, thus 2,5 . 2 = 5 (2.5 X 2 = 5) and thus the radix character was a comma.  Certainly used to the the case, might well have changed now to align with international norms.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


hypnogogia said:


> .’ used to signify the multiplication operator, thus 2,5 . 2 = 5 (2.5 X 2 = 5) and thus the radix character was a comma.


Yes, I think that is still true.

We have problems with our students and formulae as well, usually where the muliplication indicator is a "." or it is just  the number in front of brackets.

cheers Darrel


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## Hanuman

Hufsa said:


> Interesting, that will be the first confirmed issue exclusive to the "online version" then





Hanuman said:


> The second, which so far is also related to how Excel handles data validation errors. I think I mentionned this in the tutorial thread you created about the IFC calculator although I am not 100% sure. I’m about to sleep and on my mobile so will check tomorrow.


@Hufsa I looked at the short guide you made and the error you experienced recently is exactly what I commented about earlier in June. I actually made a video on how to bypass the issue.


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## Hufsa

Hanuman said:


> the error you experienced recently is exactly what I commented about earlier in June


Oops 🤭 So much for my memory 😅

..I'll write it down this time


----------

