# About making liquid gh booster



## mrtank50 (3 Feb 2022)

hello all friends


Friends, I want to make liquid gh booster.

I have 20 liter buckets.

They are waiting until the next water change.

I want to make liquid gh booster and add it to these buckets.

That's why I want to prevent calcium magnesium accumulation when I add it to the aquarium.
Unfortunately I don't know how much to add with the spoon as I have so many tanks.

I thought of such an option.

I tried several times, but I could not get a clear image. There was always a white and hazy image.

Is it possible for me to do something like this?



Materials available to me
 1-Calcium chloride
 2-Calcium Sulphate
 3-Magnesium Chloride
 4-Magnesium Sulphate 
5-Potassium Sulphate
 6-Potassium Chloride
 7-Potassium Oxide 
8-Magnetic water mixer


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## Hufsa (3 Feb 2022)

This thread discusses some of the same things


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## dw1305 (3 Feb 2022)

Hi all,


mrtank50 said:


> I tried several times, but I could not get a clear image. There was always a white and hazy image.


You would need to just use the chlorides of calcium and magnesium. The problems otherwise are to <"do with solubility">. Potassium (K) compounds are soluble, but K+ is a monovalent cation and doesn't contribute to  dGH (multivalent cations).

Have a look at <"James' Planted tank">.

*edit @Hufsa 's linked thread covers this in much more detail.

cheers Darrel


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## mrtank50 (3 Feb 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> You would need to just use the chlorides of calcium and magnesium. The problems otherwise are to <"do with solubility">. Potassium (K) compounds are soluble, but K+ is a monovalent cation and doesn't contribute to  dGH (multivalent cations).
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for valuable information.

So, is chloride harmful to plants?


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## dw1305 (3 Feb 2022)

Hi all,


mrtank50 said:


> So, is chloride harmful to plants?


Possibly in large amounts, but it is going to <"depend on the plants">. Some people have tried to limit chloride (Cl-) in their fertiliser mixes, but there is the advantage of ~all chloride salts being soluble.

cheers Darrel


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## Zeus. (3 Feb 2022)

Take a litre of water
add ten/ eleven teaspoons of the two salts above to litre of water
good shake
Stock solution made  both salts are highly soluble so the stock solution should be clear very quickly
Add 5ml per bucket of water for every 1GH you whish to increase the bucket of water

eg. if you wish to increase GH to 4GH add 20ml per bucket

If you are after another Ca:Mg ratio just ask or other salts 

The calculator with this remineralising package  I have used isn't publicly available ATM - it in production ATM with myself and @Hanuman- we will be hopefully releasing it this year when its done. The current release version does do reserialising salts, however it works on target [ion] or you add a mass of salt and it gives you the result
The one in production works from GH,KH and Ca:Mg ratios and does stock solutions and dry salts and more commercial salts to clone compare


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## arcturus (3 Feb 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Possibly in large amounts, but it is going to <"depend on the plants">. Some people have tried to limit chloride (Cl-) in their fertiliser mixes, but there is the advantage of ~all chloride salts being soluble.



Is it then preferable to use Calcium Chloride and Magnesium Chloride instead of their Sulfate version? The tradeoff is between adding Chloride (Cl-) or adding Sulfates (SO4) to the water column.

The resulting concentration for dGH 6 at 30:10 Ca : Mg ratio can result in
~80ppm Cl (Mg and Ca Chlorides)
~150ppm SO4 (Mg and Ca Sulfates)
~30ppm Cl + ~70pmm SO4  (Mg Chloride + Ca Sulfate)

Which one is preferable?


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## mrtank50 (3 Feb 2022)

Zeus. said:


> View attachment 181541
> Take a litre of water
> add ten/ eleven teaspoons of the two salts above to litre of water
> good shake
> ...



Thank you very much for valuable information. So do I need to add potassium in addition to ca and mg?


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## dw1305 (3 Feb 2022)

Hi all,


arcturus said:


> Is it then preferable to use Calcium Chloride and Magnesium Chloride instead of their Sulfate version? The tradeoff is between adding Chloride (Cl-) or adding Sulfates (SO4) to the water column.
> 
> The resulting concentration for dGH 6 at 30:10 Ca : Mg ratio can result in
> ~80ppm Cl (Mg and Ca Chlorides)
> ...


<"Calcium sulphate"> (CaSO4.2H2O)* isn't very soluble, so unless you use both chlorides?  Realistically you have to use magnesium sulphate "Epsom Salts" (MgSO4.7H2O) and  calcium chloride (CaCl2.2H2O). If you dry dose them straight into the tank? You can use the other salts.


mrtank50 said:


> So do I need to add potassium in addition to ca and mg?


You would need to add potassium (K) in your fertiliser, it is one of the <"three macronutrients"> that plants need most of. If you wanted to add some dKH? you could use <"potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3)">.

cheers Darrel


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## Nick potts (3 Feb 2022)

I use calcium sulphate,  magnesium sulphate and potassium bicarbonate to remineralize my water, but i am only aiming for 1KH and 3-4GH, I haven't run into any solubility issues but i am not trying to make a liquid booster.


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## dw1305 (3 Feb 2022)

Hi all,


Nick potts said:


> I haven't run into any solubility issues but i am not trying to male a liquid booster.


I think <"dry dosing"> makes sense for most of the sparingly soluble salts, because you don't have any solubility issues, due to dilution in a large volume of tank water.

If people have automated dosing systems then they will need to dose solutions, and they are also convenient when you use <"serial dilution">  for nano tanks and micro-elements. This is useful because it does away with the requirement for <"accurate measurement of small weights">.

cheers Darrel


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## mrtank50 (3 Feb 2022)

Zeus. said:


> View attachment 181541
> bir litre su al
> litre suya yukarıdaki iki tuzdan on/onbir çay kaşığı ekleyin
> iyi sallamak
> ...


hello again zeus

I halved the grams you mentioned, I made 500 ml.

Powders I Use:

-Magnesium sulfate

-calcium chloride

-potassium carbonate

This mix gives me kh 1 - gh 4.

But I still couldn't get a clear picture.

Is this because of K2C03?


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## Zeus. (3 Feb 2022)

Should all dissolve like a dream

sounds like you have got some Calcium Sulphate, calcium carbonate or magnesium carbonate in there as they  all have limited solubility



could the salts have got mixed up labels ?


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## plantnoobdude (3 Feb 2022)

w


Zeus. said:


> View attachment 181541
> Take a litre of water
> add ten/ eleven teaspoons of the two salts above to litre of water
> good shake
> ...


when i use these salts to gether, (cacl and mgso4) i get horrible precipitation. when these salts are separate the solution remains clear. calcium salts are usually a trouble maker and just to avoid the trouble i recommend keeping them separate.


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## Zeus. (3 Feb 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> w
> 
> when i use these salts to gether, (cacl and mgso4) i get horrible precipitation. when these salts are separate the solution remains clear. calcium salts are usually a trouble maker and just to avoid the trouble i recommend keeping them separate.


be interested so here what @X3NiTH or @dw1305  has to say on that


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## dw1305 (3 Feb 2022)

Hi all,


plantnoobdude said:


> when i use these salts to gether, (cacl and mgso4) i get horrible precipitation.


You've exceed the solubility limit of the least soluble salt, in this case CaSO4.2H2O.


dw1305 said:


> <"Calcium sulphate"> (CaSO4.2H2O)* isn't very soluble,


2.6 g per litre at 25 °C (as the dihydrate)

*edit thanks to @Maf 2500  who pointed out (kindly in a PM) that I had written "CaCO2.2H2O", rather than CaSO4.2H2O  in <"the original post">.

cheers Darrel


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## MichaelJ (3 Feb 2022)

dw1305 said:


> You've exceed the solubility limit of the least soluble salt, in this case CaSO4.2H2O.


That one. I premix everything in one of my 5 Gallon (20L) WC buckets immediately prior to dumping it into the tank, it always clouds up somewhat  in the bucket due to the relatively low solubility of especially the CaSO4 I suppose, but everything clears up (dissolves) just  fine when it gets into the tanks (150L).   Low solubility have to be considered relative to the body of water the amount of the compound goes into - with low soluble CaSO4 for instance, you would have to target an astronomically high GH to get into trouble.   If your targeting a reasonable 30 ppm of Ca  (4.2 GH from Ca alone) you literally only need 0.13 g of CaSO4 per Liter - or 1/20th of the soluble limit for CaSO4.

Cheers,
Michael


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## Zeus. (3 Feb 2022)

dw1305 said:


> You've exceed the solubility limit of the least soluble salt, in this case CaSO4.2H2O





MichaelJ said:


> 0.13 g of CaSO4 per Liter




The OP didn't use CaSO4.2H2O 


plantnoobdude said:


> when i use these salts to gether, (cacl and mgso4)


well not intentional 😬


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## MichaelJ (3 Feb 2022)

Zeus. said:


> The OP didn't use CaSO4.2H2O
> 
> well not intentional 😬



Hi @Zeus.  Oh Sorry... I just latched onto Darrels comment on the CaSO4 bit.

Now, with CaCl and MgSO4...  before I did CaSO4 I used CaCl and mixing that with MgSO4 I don't recollect any particular issue with that. Definitely more soluble than CaSO4, but the particular mix of MgSO4 and CaCl, In the amounts I would use, didn't cause any issues for me when mixing it up as I described above.  

Cheers,
Michael


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## Ria95 (3 Feb 2022)

Zeus. said:


> View attachment 181541
> Take a litre of water
> add ten/ eleven teaspoons of the two salts above to litre of water
> good shake
> ...





Zeus. said:


> The OP didn't use CaSO4.2H2O


Doesn't really matter, the ions will dissociate and then precipitate if the solubility of possible compounds is exceeded .

The screenshot posted suggested mixing CaCl2 and MgSO4 in a solution many thousands of times more concentrated than it would be in the aquarium. This issue has been discussed in a similar thread. If one manages to dissolve everything in the first place, you will have a solution of [Ca](2+), [Mg](2+) and  Cl- and [SO4](2-). The Ca and Mg no longer care they came from a Cl salt or a SO4 salt.  The Ca2+ will then react with the available SO42- and precipitate out of solution.

Further mixing these 2 with a carbonate or bicarbonate source only made things worse.


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## dw1305 (4 Feb 2022)

Hi all,


Zeus. said:


> The OP didn't use CaSO4.2H2O





Ria95 said:


> Doesn't really matter, the ions will dissociate and then precipitate if the solubility of possible compounds is exceeded . ....  you will have a solution of [Ca](2+), [Mg](2+) and Cl- and [SO4](2-). The Ca and Mg no longer care they came from a Cl salt or a SO4 salt. The Ca2+ will then react with the available SO42- and precipitate out of solution.


That one. It is the <"common-ion  effect">.

cheers Darrel


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## Zeus. (4 Feb 2022)

Ria95 said:


> Doesn't really matter, the ions will dissociate and then precipitate if the solubility of possible compounds is exceeded .
> 
> The screenshot posted suggested mixing CaCl2 and MgSO4 in a solution many thousands of times more concentrated than it would be in the aquarium. This issue has been discussed in a similar thread. If one manages to dissolve everything in the first place, you will have a solution of [Ca](2+), [Mg](2+) and  Cl- and [SO4](2-). The Ca and Mg no longer care they came from a Cl salt or a SO4 salt.  The Ca2+ will then react with the available SO42- and precipitate out of solution.
> 
> Further mixing these 2 with a carbonate or bicarbonate source only made things worse.



So when making remineralising solutions it is best use common cations to prevent the precipitation of Calcium Sulphate, calcium carbonate or magnesium carbonate, makes sense. So the problem would be resolved by dry dosing the whole tank when doing a WC or using Calcium Chloride and Magnesium Chloride.

Looks like I need to revise the making of remineralising solutions on the new IFC Remineraliser sheet to account for this interaction and precipitation of Calcium Sulphate, calcium carbonate or magnesium carbonate  Do like a challenge


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## Zeus. (4 Feb 2022)

Just thought the obvious way to resolve this precipitation issue is to make two remineralising solutions, one for each salt,  add one to tank mix it a bit, then other to bucket of water pop bucket water in tank


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## Wookii (4 Feb 2022)

Zeus. said:


> Just thought the obvious way to resolve this precipitation issue is to make two remineralising solutions, one for each salt,  add one to tank mix it a bit, then other to bucket of water pop bucket water in tank



That's what I do - MgSO4 in one container, CaCl2 in the other.


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## Zeus. (4 Feb 2022)

Wookii said:


> That's what I do - MgSO4 in one container, CaCl2 in the other.


That's just what I was thinking  The  Potassium/Sodium carbonates and bicarbonates should be fine with the Sulphates as well I think. Which @dw1305 or @X3NiTH should help confirm. Glad all this was spotted before my side of the coding of the new remineraliser sheet gets passed over, I would of been put in the 'Dog House' by @Hanuman for a short while 😅


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## dw1305 (4 Feb 2022)

Hi all,


Zeus. said:


> Potassium/Sodium carbonates and bicarbonates should be fine with the Sulphates as well I think


Yes,  the carbonates/bicarbonates of group 1 (alkali metals) are soluble, basically all salts of sodium (Na), potassium (K) etc are soluble. A good general guide is the valency, salts <"formed from the monovalent ions"> (Na+, NO3-, NH4+, Cl-, NO3-, OH-, H+ etc)  are highly soluble.

This means that potassium compounds (KNO3, KHCO3, K2HPO4, KH2PO4 etc.) are all soluble, but as soon as you mix the soluble calcium chloride (CaCl2.2H2O) with the, equally soluble, di-potassium phosphate (K2HPO4), you get the Ca++ ions react with the PO4--- ions to form insoluble calcium phosphate (Ca3(PO4)2). 

The only way of retrieving the potassium chloride (KCl) would be to evaporate the liquid until nearly dry (when you will have exceed the solubility limit of ~ 340g  / litre at 20oC).






cheers Darrel


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## Happi (6 Feb 2022)

you can never truly make a good GH booster in a solution, unless you use NO3, Cl based chemicals for Ca, Mg. anything that add Co3, So4 in the same solution will quickly react. 

your best approach is to go with: 
CaCl, MgCl, CaNo3, MgNo3 together if you want highly soluble GH booster solution


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## Happi (6 Feb 2022)

mrtank50 said:


> hello again zeus
> 
> I halved the grams you mentioned, I made 500 ml.
> 
> ...


-


Magnesium sulfate and calcium Chloride will precipitate, that milky stuff is mostly Caso4 which isn't very soluble, even though most of the Mg would have been  present in the solution which is highly soluble. but since you also added Potassium Carbonate, your solution truly contain mainly K, Mg and Ca are sitting at bottom precipitated as 
MgCO3, CaCO3 and CaSO4.


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## plantnoobdude (6 Feb 2022)

Happi said:


> -
> 
> 
> Magnesium sulfate and calcium Chloride will precipitate, that milky stuff is mostly Caso4 which isn't very soluble, even though most of the Mg would have been  present in the solution which is highly soluble. but since you also added Potassium Carbonate, your solution truly contain mainly K, Mg and Ca are sitting at bottom precipitated as
> MgCO3, CaCO3 and CaSO4.


so thats what was happenning. makes sense.


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## Yugang (6 Feb 2022)

May I ask, is Ca deficiency a real thing? 
I find some contradictory statements on this and other fora, ranging from "Ca deficiency is extremely rare" to "Ca to Mg ratio should be XX". 

I have recently started to dose CaCl, just not sure if I am barking at the wrong tree here. What is the latest insight on minimum Ca ppm?


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## plantnoobdude (6 Feb 2022)

Yugang said:


> May I ask, is Ca deficiency a real thing?


ofcourse, you can try for your self. load up all nutrients to EI levels and skip Ca use Ro and inert sub. you'll see stunted deformed growth and leaves pointing downwards. though most people dont need much Ca, my low tech vase does fine around 3-4ppm Ca and 2ppm Mg. but for EI fast growth tanks it is sometimes beneficial to have a bit more.


> just not sure if I am barking at the wrong tree here.


depends how much is in ur tap


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## Yugang (6 Feb 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> depends how much is in ur tap


Little, and since water in summer and winter are from different sources als not constant/reliable.

Dosing CaNO3 and adding some CaCO3 (eggshell) I should get to 6 ppm Ca. (Heavily planted CO2 injected tank, half EI) What concerns me is the talk about Ca/Mg ratio, and 20-30 ppm Ca recommended in various sources, as opposed to 5 ppm in other sources.

So with GH boosters, are we more targetting Ca ppm 5, or in the 20-30 range?

Note: I am in the process to lower my dosing (macro and micro) and took a pause as certain plants were not happy. Ca is one of the potential causes I am looking into, hence my question.


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## Happi (6 Feb 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> so thats what was happenning. makes sense.





Yugang said:


> May I ask, is Ca deficiency a real thing?
> I find some contradictory statements on this and other fora, ranging from "Ca deficiency is extremely rare" to "Ca to Mg ratio should be XX".
> 
> I have recently started to dose CaCl, just not sure if I am barking at the wrong tree here. What is the latest insight on minimum Ca ppm?


Ca deficiency are very rare because the plant need for Calcium isn't that high. The only time high calcium can be beneficial is if you dose high micros. It acts as a counter balance, especially if you dose high boron. Far as the plant goes, I was growing plant at 1 ppm Ca weekly. 

Far as you adding egg shell, the calcium from it isn't available right away, it will release little by little as it dissolve.


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## Yugang (6 Feb 2022)

Happi said:


> Ca deficiency are very rare because the plant need for Calcium isn't that high. The only time high calcium can be beneficial is if you dose high micros. It acts as a counter balance, especially if you dose high boron. Far as the plant goes, I was growing plant at 1 ppm Ca weekly.


So are we saying that the 20-30 ppm Ca (a multiple of the 10 ppm Mg) are of no use whatsoever? Why add Ca in the booster?



Happi said:


> Far as you adding egg shell, the calcium from it isn't available right away, it will release little by little as it dissolve.


Agree, in a CO2 injected tank it dissolves slowly and that is exactly what I like to have a stable and low supply of Ca and CO3. I dose one eggshell weekly, 200 l tank, and see no accumulation of the white stuff.

I suspect that the answer to my Ca question will be "it depends". Just trying to understand "depends on what?"

Note: hope I am not derailing this thread.


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## Happi (6 Feb 2022)

Yugang said:


> So are we saying that the 20-30 ppm Ca (a multiple of the 10 ppm Mg) are of no use whatsoever? Why add Ca in the booster?
> 
> 
> Agree, in a CO2 injected tank it dissolves slowly and that is exactly what I like to have a stable and low supply of Ca and CO3. I dose one eggshell weekly, 200 l tank, and see no accumulation of the white stuff.
> ...


Post a new thread, we can talk about it over there. I don't want this thread to be 50 pages long.


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## Yugang (6 Feb 2022)

Happi said:


> Post a new thread, we can talk about it over there. I don't want this thread to be 50 pages long


Will do, will not be helpful to OP to continue on this thread.


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## dw1305 (6 Feb 2022)

Hi all, 


Yugang said:


> So are we saying that the 20-30 ppm Ca (a multiple of the 10 ppm Mg) are of no use whatsoever? Why add Ca in the booster?


I don't think it serves any useful purpose in terms of plant growth for most plants (there maybe exceptions in "hard water" plants) but it does allow the vendor of the "GH booster" to sell more product, and calcium chloride (CaCl2.2H2O) is a pretty cheap chemical to buy.

cheers Darrel


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## Wookii (6 Feb 2022)

It is also important to remineralise higher if you keep shrimp, their requirements are a lot higher than those of plants in terms of calcium availability.


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## Yugang (6 Feb 2022)

Wookii said:


> It is also important to remineralise higher if you keep shrimp, their requirements are a lot higher than those of plants in terms of calcium availability.


Would this be via water column dosing, or mainly through food?  Or is the mechanism that their CaCO3 is dissolving in the water and needs to be balanced?


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## Wookii (6 Feb 2022)

Yugang said:


> Would this be via water column dosing, or mainly through food?  Or is the mechanism that their CaCO3 is dissolving in the water and needs to be balanced?



Mainly through the water column, but you can also supplement through food. It is why you will often see a specific dGH quoted for certain shrimp species, and most are dGH 5 and above.


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## MichaelJ (6 Feb 2022)

Wookii said:


> Mainly through the water column, but you can also supplement through food. It is why you will often see a specific dGH quoted for certain shrimp species, and most are dGH 5 and above.


I seconds that.  Fish and Shrimps rely on water column and food sources for Calcium and Magnesium.  Shrimps have higher requirements and need a good deal of Ca to build their exoskeleton. Very high levels of Ca will on the other hand  make the molting process more difficult for the shrimps. From the bit of research if done it appears the sweet spot might be around 25-35 ppm of Ca and 8-12 ppm of Mg.  Roughly corresponding to a GH in the  5.5-7.5 range.  My own shrimp tank sits smack in the middle at 30 ppm of Ca and 10 ppm of Mg.

Also, I provide all my Ca through CaSO4...   I am not sure why not more of our Chemistry/Fertilizer experts recommend  CaSO4 over CaCl2 ... The lower Solubility of CaSO4 is absolutely no issue if you add it to the tank or WC water in dry powder form as needed instead of making a premixed solution (where it will be very hard to dissolve of course). The benefit of CaSO4 over CaCl is a much lower net TDS (good for livestock) and avoidance of the excess Chloride which in large quantiles can be bad for our livestock as well. For instance to target 30 ppm of Ca with CaCl2 you get a staggering 53 ppm of Cl whereas with CaSO4 you "only" get 24 ppm of S. Thats a 29 ppm difference.

On a side note: I have tried using Ca Gluconate (an organic compound - essentially a sugar)  as well, but it appears to cause adverse interactions in the amounts needed to reach 30 ppm.  Small amounts of Mg Gluconante in combination with MgSO4 and Mg(NO3) is fine it appears, but I am in the process of figuring out if I can lower my CaSO4 usage (shave off some of the unnecessary S) and complement with a bit of Ca Gluconate.

Cheers,
Michael


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## Wookii (6 Feb 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> I am not sure why not more of our Chemistry/Fertilizer experts recommend CaSO4 over CaCl2 ... The lower Solubility of CaSO4 is absolutely no issue if you add it to the tank or WC water in dry powder form as needed instead of making a premixed solution (where it will be very hard to dissolve of course).



No good for me if I can’t strap it to an auto doser! 😉



MichaelJ said:


> avoidance of the excess Chloride which in large quantiles can be bad for our livestock as well



I don’t believe the levels of Chloride that would result from typical remineralisation are an issue?



MichaelJ said:


> On a sidetone: I have tried using Ca Gluconate (an organic compound - essentially a sugar) as well, but it appears to cause adverse interactions in the amounts needed to reach 30 ppm. Small amounts of Mg Gluconante in combination with MgSO4 and Mg(NO3) is fine it appears, but I am in the process of figuring out if I can lower my CaSO4 usage (shave off some of the unnecessary S) and complement with a bit of Ca Gluconate.



Have you considered Calcium/Magnesium Nitrate?


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## Nick potts (6 Feb 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> My own shrimp tank sits smack in the middle at 30 ppm of Ca and 10 ppm of Mg.





MichaelJ said:


> I am in the process of figuring out if I can lower my CaSO4 usage (shave off some of the unnecessary S)



Could you not just reduce the overall GH (and therefore less S)? I run my tanks at around half your GH (3-4ish) and have seen no issues with my shrimp.


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## Wookii (6 Feb 2022)

Nick potts said:


> Could you not just reduce the overall GH (and therefore less S)? I run my tanks at around half your GH (3-4ish) and have seen no issues with my shrimp.



Is that remineralised RO or tap Nick?


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## MichaelJ (6 Feb 2022)

Wookii said:


> I don’t believe the levels of Chloride that would result from typical remineralisation are an issue?


Right. and I don't know what the limit is.  However, it all adds up in terms of TDS and ultimately osmotic pressure/stress which is my main concern.


Wookii said:


> Have you considered Calcium/Magnesium Nitrate?


Yes. and for my NO3 dosing I am using a combination of Mg(NO3), MgSO4 and Mg Gluconate.   For the Ca, using  Ca(NO3) wouldn't give me much leverage... you get a fairly low amount of Ca with Ca(NO3) compared to the amount of NO3. I am currently targeting 15ppm of NO3 in my shrimp tank.

Cheers,
Michael


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## MichaelJ (6 Feb 2022)

Nick potts said:


> Could you not just reduce the overall GH (and therefore less S)? I run my tanks at around half your GH (3-4ish) and have seen no issues with my shrimp.


Hi @Nick potts , That is interesting.   3-4 is definitely the lower end of what I've come across so far... Not not say that lower GH is not possible if the shrimps Calcium needs are otherwise met by food sources. What kind of shrimps are you keeping?  and what's your Ca ppm vs. Mg ppm.?

Cheers,
Michael


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## Happi (6 Feb 2022)

@MichaelJ​there is nothing wrong with adding CaSo4, most people don't like too much of SO4 in their water, SO4 is much safer vs Cl though when it comes to plants, shrimps or fish, Cl doesn't pose much threat unless its extremely excess.


MichaelJ said:


> Right. and I don't know what the limit is.  However, it all adds up in terms of TDS and ultimately osmotic pressure/stress which is my main concern.
> 
> Yes. and for my NO3 dosing I am using a combination of Mg(NO3), MgSO4 and Mg Gluconate.   For the Ca, using  Ca(NO3) wouldn't give me much leverage... you get a fairly low amount of Ca with Ca(NO3) compared to the amount of NO3. I am currently targeting 15ppm of NO3 in my shrimp tank.
> 
> ...


you also get tiny amount of NH4 coming from CaNO3


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## MichaelJ (6 Feb 2022)

Happi said:


> @MichaelJ​there is nothing wrong with adding CaSo4, most people don't like too much of SO4 in their water, SO4 is much safer vs Cl though when it comes to plants, shrimps or fish, Cl doesn't pose much threat unless its extremely excess.


Hi @Happi. I wonder if _SO4 is much safer vs Cl though when it comes to plants, shrimps or fish _why don't people _like_ too much SO4 ?    I totally get the solubility concern if you premix (which you could just as well avoid doing... I never considered premixing my Macro/remins as it seems to be marred in issues mostly related to solubility and adverse interactions - traces is a different story and I do premix those).



Happi said:


> you also get tiny amount of NH4 coming from CaNO3


Interesting... I did not know.  Do you know how much?

Cheers,
Michael


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## Nick potts (6 Feb 2022)

Wookii said:


> Is that remineralised RO or tap Nick?


I use RO water


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## Nick potts (6 Feb 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> Hi @Nick potts , That is interesting.   3-4 is definitely the lower end of what I've come across so far... Not not say that lower GH is not possible if the shrimps Calcium needs are otherwise met by food sources. What kind of shrimps are you keeping?  and what's your Ca ppm vs. Mg ppm.?
> 
> Cheers,
> Michael


I only keep neocaridina, and Ca and Mg would be around 15ppm/6ppm, though I don't test.

I do feed a lot, both to the tank in general and specifically the shrimp who get a mixed feed daily of different shrimp foods.


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## Happi (6 Feb 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> Hi @Happi. I wonder if _SO4 is much safer vs Cl though when it comes to plants, shrimps or fish _why don't people _like_ too much SO4 ?    I totally get the solubility concern if you premix (which you could just as well avoid doing... I never considered premixing my Macro/remins as it seems to be marred in issues mostly related to solubility and adverse interactions - traces is a different story and I do premix those).
> 
> 
> Interesting... I did not know.  Do you know how much?
> ...


I assume one reason is solubility and the other one is unknown. maybe we should ask someone who is afraid of high SO4, i myself don't like adding S or Cl in excess as i prefer low TDS and clean water. 

here is what you are adding when you add CaNO3:


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## X3NiTH (6 Feb 2022)

The reason I target a low range for sulphate is to reduce the incidence of hydrogen sulphide production from the breakdown of sulphate in any anoxic zones in substrate sediments.

The Source of Hydrogen Sulphide in Anoxic Sediments


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## Happi (6 Feb 2022)

one have to reach these levels using extremely excessive level of SO4. this is also found in your filter media, where there is oxidized Fe, Mn etc.


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## X3NiTH (6 Feb 2022)

The levels do not have to be excessive, I had a nano tank with shrimp where there was a cm or two of Tropica Plant Soil over a half cm of Tropica Plant Soil Powder that turned into a Hydrogen Sulphide gas factory, the remineralisation mixture in use was BeeShrimp Mineral GH+ which is composed of 16.91% Sulphate. The Catalyst for the production of Hydrogen Sulphide gas was a generous sprinkling of BacterAE on the bottom tank glass before any plant soils were added. The conditions were bad enough that it outright killed a Pygmy Pea Puffer that liked to dig in the substrate for snails, must have taken a face full, totally fine then suddenly dead. Took me a while to figure out what happened at first then when the Aquarium didn’t pass the sniff test I went stirring in the substrate and immediately released visible pockets of gas with the unmistakable repulsive odour that Hydrogen Sulphide has.


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## MichaelJ (7 Feb 2022)

X3NiTH said:


> The levels do not have to be excessive, I had a nano tank with shrimp where there was a cm or two of Tropica Plant Soil over a half cm of Tropica Plant Soil Powder that turned into a Hydrogen Sulphide gas factory, the remineralisation mixture in use was BeeShrimp Mineral GH+ which is composed of 16.91% Sulphate. The Catalyst for the production of Hydrogen Sulphide gas was a generous sprinkling of BacterAE on the bottom tank glass before any plant soils were added. The conditions were bad enough that it outright killed a Pygmy Pea Puffer that liked to dig in the substrate for snails, must have taken a face full, totally fine then suddenly dead. Took me a while to figure out what happened at first then when the Aquarium didn’t pass the sniff test I went stirring in the substrate and immediately released visible pockets of gas with the unmistakable repulsive odour that Hydrogen Sulphide has.


I am sorry about your loss there @X3NiTH    Given the catalyst added, and perhaps other adverse conditions such as lack of flow throughout the substrate, I think the situation you describe might be a bit of an outlier. In any event, it is very valuable to know and adds to the pile of concerns that makes me lying awake at night... Thanks for that  . I am trying to understand more about the short term / long term interactions between the chemicals we are adding to our tanks which I think should be better understood by the Chemistry-challenged people among us,  including myself.

Cheers,
Michael


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## dw1305 (7 Feb 2022)

Hi all, 


Happi said:


> here is what you are adding when you add CaNO3:


Fertiliser grade is usually "Nitrochalk" <"calcium ammonium nitrate">. You can get calcium nitrate tetrahydrate (Ca(NO3).2H20) as a salt, but it is a potential explosive so may be covered by legislation in some Countries.

cheers Darrel


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## MichaelJ (7 Feb 2022)

dw1305 said:


> calcium nitrate tetrahydrate (Ca(NO3).2H20) as a salt, but it is a potential explosive so may be covered by legislation in some Countries.


Well, that might explain why I don't get a lot of hits on Amazon US when I search for that particular compound.

Since you used the word _explosive...._ note to the Analyst at the NSA who are intercepting and analyzing this: This is an Aquarium forum - we concern ourselves with plants and animals that lives in glass containers filled with water. While we are strange, we are also perfectly harmless and safe... for now at least 

Cheers,
Michael


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## Wookii (7 Feb 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Fertiliser grade is usually "Nitrochalk" <"calcium ammonium nitrate">. You can get calcium nitrate tetrahydrate (Ca(NO3).2H20) as a salt, but it is a potential explosive so may be covered by legislation in some Countries.
> 
> cheers Darrel



We seem to be able to get it alright over here:









						Calcium Nitrate Tetrahydrate 99-102.0% ACS
					

Visit the post for more.




					apcpure.com
				




It’s magnesium nitrate I can’t seem to find - those I have found listed as magnesium nitrate seem to have SO4 content?


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## X3NiTH (8 Feb 2022)

Wookii said:


> magnesium nitrate seem to have SO4 content?



This would suggest that it may be derived from mixing Magnesium Sulphate and Calcium Nitrate, the Sulphate content will be the amount of Calcium Sulphate that remains in the solution when it is separated from the Calcium Sulphate precipitate. The ionic solution of Magnesium, Nitrate, Calcium and Sulphate that remains could go through a further process to selectively exchange the Calcium ion (for Magnesium?) leaving only Magnesium, Nitrate and the Sulphate.

The amount of Sulphate will be low in this compound, if there’s a content analysis available it might be helpful to post the Sulphate percentage.

If using this compound and targeting for Nitrate then the Sulphate content will be low to negligible, if targeting for Magnesium content then the Sulphate content will be even lower.


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## arcturus (8 Feb 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Fertiliser grade is usually "Nitrochalk" <"calcium ammonium nitrate">. You can get calcium nitrate tetrahydrate (Ca(NO3).2H20) as a salt, but it is a potential explosive so may be covered by legislation in some Countries.



In my search for salts I managed to buy calcium nitrate tetrahydrate as a source of NO3. Getting KNO3 is completely out of question in Germany. It is also possible to buy magnesium nitrate for agriculture use, but that is mixed with other compounds. Otherwise, magnesium nitrate hexahydrate is extremely expensive (laboratory grade). Below are the specifications of the calcium nitrate salt I got. It has only residual Cl and SO4.


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## Hufsa (8 Feb 2022)

dw1305 said:


> but it is a potential explosive so may be covered by legislation in some Countries.


Im on all the fun lists! 😄



arcturus said:


> Getting KNO3 is completely out of question in Germany.


Ah I didnt know they were stricter in Germany than in Norway with this  We have two lists of chemicals, the first one is the no-no-no list and the second one is "We'll be watching you closely" list. Is there not a system like that in Germany? For me KNO3 was on the second list so I took the chance and havent gotten any scary phonecalls yet. I figure if they do call on me I will invite them round to view my tank and discuss why ammonia dosing isnt straight forward in aquariums with fish.


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## Wookii (8 Feb 2022)

X3NiTH said:


> This would suggest that it may be derived from mixing Magnesium Sulphate and Calcium Nitrate, the Sulphate content will be the amount of Calcium Sulphate that remains in the solution when it is separated from the Calcium Sulphate precipitate. The ionic solution of Magnesium, Nitrate, Calcium and Sulphate that remains could go through a further process to selectively exchange the Calcium ion (for Magnesium?) leaving only Magnesium, Nitrate and the Sulphate.
> 
> The amount of Sulphate will be low in this compound, if there’s a content analysis available it might be helpful to post the Sulphate percentage.
> 
> If using this compound and targeting for Nitrate then the Sulphate content will be low to negligible, if targeting for Magnesium content then the Sulphate content will be even lower.



This is the only stuff I could find in a smaller quantity, and is described as “Magnesium Sulphate with Nitrogen”:









						1900g GARDEN MAGNESIUM NIRTRATE =MAGNESIUM SULPHATE WITH NITROGEN  11-0-0  16 MG  | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for 1900g GARDEN MAGNESIUM NIRTRATE =MAGNESIUM SULPHATE WITH NITROGEN  11-0-0  16 MG at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products.



					www.ebay.co.uk
				




The only other stuff I could see is this, but I don’t really want 25kg:









						Magnesium Nitrate - 11-0-0+15.4mg- 25kg
					

Nova Mag-N contains important nutrients for plant growth – Nitrate Nitrogen which is immediately available to the plants, and Magnesium - the central part of the chlorophyll molecule playing a key role in photosynthesis.Magnesium is o




					www.agrigem.co.uk


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## Hufsa (8 Feb 2022)

Wookii said:


> This is the only stuff I could find in a smaller quantity..
> ...
> The only other stuff I could see is this, but I don’t really want 25kg..


Im not quite sure if this is a helpful link because im not quite following the thread, but have you looked at Loudwolf (Magnesium Nitrate) ? 
I considered ordering from them once on one of my journeys down a rabbithole. 
I didnt end up ordering that time so I cant vouch for the site but they seem to sell a lot of useful stuff in convenient quantities.

(For anyone from the Norwegian Police Security Service reading this, when I say useful I mean for making really nerdy custom fertilizer recipes and strictly that)


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## arcturus (8 Feb 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Im on all the fun lists! 😄
> 
> 
> Ah I didnt know they were stricter in Germany than in Norway with this  We have two lists of chemicals, the first one is the no-no-no list and the second one is "We'll be watching you closely" list. Is there not a system like that in Germany? For me KNO3 was on the second list so I took the chance and havent gotten any scary phonecalls yet. I figure if they do call on me I will invite them round to view my tank and discuss why ammonia dosing isnt straight forward in aquariums with fish.


"Technical grade" (or above) KNO3 is on on the no-no-no list and cannot be sold to private customers and only registered companies can buy it. The versions that are available are mostly agriculture use are mixed with a significant amount of other substances (and you need to buy bags of 25Kg or so). You can also try to buy KNO3 as food preservative (E252) but this is not straightforward as a private customer and you will always end up in the "we'll be watching you closely"  list. I also got into that list because of my 1Kg of CaNO3  But CaNO3 and MgNO3 are sold with less restrictions  The store where I bought the CaNO3 also sells MgNO3 but they only had the expensive high purity version. Otherwise, CaNO3 and MgNO3 can be bought after your ID is verified.


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## Wookii (8 Feb 2022)

Hufsa said:


> (For anyone from the Norwegian Police Security Service reading this, when I say useful I mean for making really nerdy custom fertilizer recipes and strictly that)



5 minutes later at @Hufsa’s house:


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## Wookii (8 Feb 2022)

arcturus said:


> "Technical grade" (or above) KNO3 is on on the no-no-no list and cannot be sold to private customers and only registered companies can buy it. The versions that are available are mostly agriculture use are mixed with a significant amount of other substances (and you need to buy bags of 25Kg or so). You can also try to buy KNO3 as food preservative (E252) but this is not straightforward as a private customer and you will always end up in the "we'll be watching you closely"  list. I also got into that list because of my 1Kg of CaNO3  But CaNO3 and MgNO3 are sold with less restrictions  The store where I bought the CaNO3 also sells MgNO3 but they only had the expensive high purity version. Otherwise, CaNO3 and MgNO3 can be bought after your ID is verified.



It’s a strange one as KNO3 is easily obtainable in the UK:









						Potassium Nitrate 99.5% ACS, FG
					

Visit the post for more.




					apcpure.com


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## arcturus (8 Feb 2022)

Wookii said:


> It’s a strange one as KNO3 is easily obtainable in the UK:


It would be indeed strange if these laws and regulations made any sense


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## Hufsa (8 Feb 2022)

Did @mrtank50  get his problem solved by the way? Or did we do a UKAPS (TM) and derail into highly theoretical stuff 🤔


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## plantnoobdude (8 Feb 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Did @mrtank50  get his problem solved by the way? Or did we do a UKAPS (TM) and derail into highly theoretical stuff 🤔


*cough cough*, lean dosing thread, *cough cough *


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## MichaelJ (8 Feb 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Did @mrtank50  get his problem solved by the way? Or did we do a UKAPS (TM) and derail into highly theoretical stuff 🤔


That is a good question @Hufsa.   @mrtank50  did bring up a pretty advanced topic (DIY GH booster) that calls for some unavoidable practical and theoretical considerations, so in this case I think we are all somewhat excused for nerding out a bit.

But @mrtank50 should let us know 

Cheers,
Michael


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## hypnogogia (8 Feb 2022)

arcturus said:


> "Technical grade" (or above) KNO3 is on on the no-no-no list and cannot be sold to private customers and only registered companies can buy it. The versions that are available are mostly agriculture use are mixed with a significant amount of other substances (and you need to buy bags of 25Kg or so). You can also try to buy KNO3 as food preservative (E252) but this is not straightforward as a private customer and you will always end up in the "we'll be watching you closely"  list. I also got into that list because of my 1Kg of CaNO3  But CaNO3 and MgNO3 are sold with less restrictions  The store where I bought the CaNO3 also sells MgNO3 but they only had the expensive high purity version. Otherwise, CaNO3 and MgNO3 can be bought after your ID is verified.


What would happen if some were to be posted to you from outside of the EU, i.e. the UK?


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## Kelvin12 (8 Feb 2022)

Probably come with an attached SWAT team or SAS squad....


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## arcturus (8 Feb 2022)

hypnogogia said:


> What would happen if some were to be posted to you from outside of the EU, i.e. the UK?


Assuming that we can actually send the product by post, then the parcel would be confiscated at customs, and I would likely end up in some trouble. These products are restricted according to <European Dual-Use Regulation>. Dual use products can be used for both civilian and military applications. The way this directive is transcribed into law varies from country to country and, in Germany, the actual regulations are wider than the EU directive. In the UK, I believe the <EPP - explosives precursors and poisons> guidelines apply (and nitrates are explicitly in those guidelines). Here, you need need to provide an end-user declaration ("EVE") regarding chemicals and dangerous substances to the supplier when buying such product. The supplier will then check with a government agency if you are actually authorized to use the product. This means that only authorized entities can actually use these products. So, every transaction involving these products is checked and reported. If you are ordering such products from another EU country, then the same directive applies and the company will ask you for your ID and for an official authorization. If the parcel is sent from post-Brexit UK then the process would now involve customs as well,  because each and every parcel sent by post must be declared, and it would be declared as a regulated/dangerous chemical... so it would be certainly checked by customs, who could then check with the government agency if the receiver is authorized to use the product. We actually received two parcels (small boxes, less than 1Kg) from the UK last week: one was a Christmas gift from a friend posted mid-December; the other were some craft items we ordered in early Jan. Both were stuck at customs for +1 month and both boxes were inspected by customs...


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## Wookii (9 Feb 2022)

arcturus said:


> In the UK, I believe the <EPP - explosives precursors and poisons> guidelines apply (and nitrates are explicitly in those guidelines). Here, you need need to provide an end-user declaration ("EVE") regarding chemicals and dangerous substances to the supplier when buying such product. The supplier will then check with a government agency if you are actually authorized to use the product. This means that only authorized entities can actually use these products. So, every transaction involving these products is checked and reported.



Potassium Nitrate is listed, but it is listed as a ‘Reportable Substance’, not a ‘Regulated Substance’. It therefore does not require any kind of authorisation or EPP licence to purchase. The seller is under a duty of disclosure to report any ‘suspicious’ purchases of the ‘Reportable Substances’ but not general sales.

It seems there isn’t a clear definition of what is ‘suspicious’, but I would assume that buying a 5kg tub or two of lab grade KNO3 would not be considered suspicious, where as buying 20 x 25Kg of agricultural grade would raise more questions.


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## hypnogogia (9 Feb 2022)

@arcturus my word! Just goes to show, though, how much sovereignty countries have in how EU directives are implemented.  Even as part of the EU it was relatively easy to get hold of KNO3.


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## arcturus (9 Feb 2022)

Wookii said:


> Potassium Nitrate is listed, but it is listed as a ‘Reportable Substance’, not a ‘Regulated Substance’. It therefore does not require any kind of authorisation or EPP licence to purchase. The seller is under a duty of disclosure to report any ‘suspicious’ purchases of the ‘Reportable Substances’ but not general sales.
> 
> It seems there isn’t a clear definition of what is ‘suspicious’, but I would assume that buying a 5kg tub or two of lab grade KNO3 would not be considered suspicious, where as buying 20 x 25Kg of agricultural grade would raise more questions.


Exactly. The <EU directive 2019/1148> places ammonium nitrate in the restricted list and K, Na, Ca, Mg nitrates in the reportable list. But in Germany the chemicals ordinance also applies (ChemVerbotsV), which mandates the sellers to report transactions involving these products. If you go to a pharmacy you might try buying a small quantity of a reportable product without providing the end-user declaration, but you always need to provide your ID. A classic example of this is buying hydrogen peroxide: it is available at concentrations below 12%; between 12-35% is reportable and you need to convince the pharmacist to sell it to you without the end-user declaration and you would need to provide your ID; above 35% the end-user declaration is mandatory. You can try going the same route with KNO3 with the argument that you want to preserve meat


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