# Proper attempt



## virgojavier (17 Aug 2013)

Hello everybody
I have been following lots of journals on this forum and finally decided to create my own, where I could seek for advice and some useful hints.
I am in possesion of a small tank (55l) which was a gift from a workmate who really wanted to get me involve in aquascaping. Thx Andy!
I started my adventure about 10 months ago, lots of mistakes unfortunatelly, lots of lessons...
Thanks to this forum I've been able to find solutions to almost all problems which I came across.
Without going into details here I am, with an idea for a restart of my tank.

Tank dimensions: 59cm(L)x29cm(W)30cm(H)
Light: Arcadia Twin 15W Lighting Controler (2x15W Tropical Light Arcadia Bulbs)
Heater: TetraTex HT100
Filtration: Aqual VersaMax FZN2 (800l/h), will be replaced with Fluval 105 external filter
CO2 System: Tetra Optimat (which is a pain), will be replaced with DIY CO2 FE unit

I could not find a way to explain it to my wife that I would like to spent aprox 100 quids on a few bags of ADA soil, so decided to go a cheaky way and bought myself a bag (18l) of Akadama from my local bonsai seller. Hope its not radioactive lol





After reading JamesC thread about Akadama I went through some preparations:
- decided to replicate ADA substrate system and sieve through my Akadama to separate large fraction which could potentially became equivalent to Power Sand and the fine fraction as something similiar to Amazonia Powder Soil.




I used two sieves with mesh size 4mm and 2mm





Before using it in the tank I left it flooded for a week with few ingredients (CaCO3, MgSO4, KHPO4):




A bit cloudy but hopefully I will get rid off all the dust during the final washing process.
After a week gave it a proper wash and transfer both fractions to two separate bags.




Like I said I am going to replicate ADA substrate system so I bought some stuff on Ebay:




I am also thinking about spreading some more CaCO3 below the substrate with an activated carbon and granulated peat.

Looking forward for your comments.

To be continued...

Regards
Lucas


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## Henry (17 Aug 2013)

Looks like you're really going for it. If you're dosing EI when the tank is set up, don't get too obsessed about nutrient loading the substrate, although, every little helps!

I wonder what actually goes into those powders? At the price they sell them on eBay, however, it's not exactly going to bankrupt you if they don't live up to expectations.

Best of luck with your restart.


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## virgojavier (17 Aug 2013)

At my work place (I am a chemist), after running few quality measurements I can tell that :
- Penac W (is mainly SiO2 in around 99%), sample purchased on ebay is exactly the same
- Penac P (CaCO3 in 98% and a bit of MgCO3), again sample ok.
- Super Clear - this is just an Activated Carbon very fine milled
- Tourmaline - Boron in 99%

The guy selling them on ebay is obviously making a double profit...
All that stuff which is on the photo cost me 8 quids

Regards
Lukasz


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## foxfish (17 Aug 2013)

Great idea...if it is necessary or not doesn't matter to me .. it just a great thing to do.


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## Henry (17 Aug 2013)

Wouldn't want to bother ordering all the stuff in bulk though, much nicer in little sealed bags 

The 'Tourmaline' is the most interesting; is this included in everyday fertiliser dosing?


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## Gary Nelson (17 Aug 2013)

A great start... Looks like your research is going to pay off, I look forward to seeing more


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## virgojavier (17 Aug 2013)

Here is the link if someone will be interested:
 ADA Super Clear Tourmaline Bacter 100 Penac P Penac W | eBay

Well I will go with EI fertiliser method:
Made up two solutions Macro and Micro.
Macro contains: KNO3, KHPO4 and a bit of MgSO4,
Micro contains: 
Fe 8.2%
Mn 1.82%
Zn 1.16%
*B 1.05%*
Cu 0.23%
Mo 0.15%

As you can see Boron is present in my Micro solution, so it will be dosed twice per week.
Tourmaline will be added just below the substrate to help kick in and then the deficite of Boron will be supplemented with Micro solution.

Thats the plan I dont know if its right, but it all makes sense to me from chemical point of view.


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## Henry (17 Aug 2013)

Ah, I see. Good to know I'm not missing anything from my dosing. Makes perfect sense to have the nutrients immediately available for the plants from day 1, and for £8, it's a small price to pay for the best start possible.


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## ceg4048 (18 Aug 2013)

virgojavier said:


> I have been following lots of journals on this forum and finally decided to create my own, where I could seek for advice and some useful hints.


Hello,
	Here is a useful hint: It's a complete waste of time attempting to simulate ADA Aquasoil or Powersand if you are also dosing EI. None of those products shown in your post (whether cheaper knock off or expensive original) will make a difference in plant health. The concentration requirement for Boron is miniscule, probably around 0.1 mg/L per week. So if it's already in your EI mix then it's completely redundant to add it to the sediment. Boron is released in to the atmosphere by geothermal activity around the world, and so it diffuses into your tank from atmosphere just by opening your hood. People spending money for Tourmaline are insane. You can just buy Boric acid or any Borate salt (which costs 100X less) and just add a pinch of powder. This nutrient is definitely NOT something to worry about.

In the ADA system the water column dosing is restricted to small amounts of Potassium. The sediment nutrient concentrations are so high that these compounds leech into the water column and THAT is how the plants get their start. Foliar uptake is much more efficient than root uptake, especially since the root must undergo transformation when first submerged.

The fact that Akadama is clay is 100X more important than the addition of any of those products because of clay's high CEC. You could have simply added some slow release fertilizer and small amounts of crushed peat to the substrate (or even added mulm from another tank) and that would have been a lot more effective for getting the bacterial populations started in the sediment.

You should really concentrate more on having effective CO2 and flow distribution instead of spending time and energy buying products containing  ingredients that are already in your tap water, or which are easily obtained from the supermarket.

Cheers,


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## virgojavier (18 Aug 2013)

Thank You very much Ceg4048! Your comments are truly inspiring.
I've been thinking about adding Osmocote.
I have mentioned this before, I bought a bag of granulated pest, couldnt get sphagnum moss peat anywhere unfortunatelly. So decided to crash the granules in a mortar and spread them around.

My CO2 system is almost ready, wont start the tank without completing it first. Will post some photos later.

Thx again
Lucas


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## foxfish (18 Aug 2013)

Maybe but, just because it is not nessary does not mean it s not fun & I think we should all make the most of our hobbies & if that involves a bit of experimentation to add some extra enjoyment then that is fantastic!
I only get concerned if any fauna is at risk.


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## Nice (18 Aug 2013)

Hello



ceg4048 said:


> None of those products shown in your post (whether cheaper knock off or expensive original) will make a difference in plant health.


 
Ok,Takashi Amano revolutionized aquarium keeping. Don't you think that such an important person, who made planted aquarium a successful and easy thing to achieve, do have researched a lot more that 20 years, and had developed the best products he could bring to market, so he can be successful in aquarium business like he is.

I believe that those products are important...


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## ceg4048 (18 Aug 2013)

Hi,
   Well certainly, no can argue with what you believe. We are free to believe what we want, and as foxfish mentions, we are free to have as much "fun" as we want. However, my post has nothing to do with belief or fun. My post has everything to do with science and facts. For those who read this and other threads regarding the effectiveness of various aquarium products, and who are truly interested in determining science fact from science fiction, it's necessary to clarify these points.



Nice said:


> Don't you think that such an important person, who made planted aquarium a successful and easy thing to achieve..,


And how did you arrive at the conclusion that Mr. Amano made anything easier? Planted tanks are just as difficult to achieve success as they were before. Just as many folks suffer problems using these products as those who don't...and that is directly attributable to their beliefs. What I am saying is that it's very easy to show how irrelevant these products are and that by an overwhelming margin, your chances of success are better if you pay attention to the things that actually matter when it comes to plant health. Again, this is not to say that Amazonia is ineffective. It is in fact, my favorite substrate, is packed with goodness, and it is brilliant overall, but it is very expensive and you can have just as much success using Akadama which is cheaper by orders of magnitude. I mean, the Akadama thread proves that, doesn't it? Have you read the thread? I'm pretty sure the OP figured this out, and that's why he decided to use a substitute clay product. Once you learn how and why plants grow, it will become obvious which products are important and which products are not. Then you don't have to rely on belief, you can save money and still have fun.

Also, bringing a product to market does not necessarily mean that the product is any good. Corn Flakes is a very popular product and is a commercial success, however, plain old corn on the cob is 100X healthier option than Corn Flakes.

What folks should do to separate belief from fact is to test the products against a control and determine the differences by observation.



virgojavier said:


> couldnt get sphagnum moss peat anywhere unfortunatelly. So decided to crash the granules in a mortar and spread them around.


Again, this is another source of confusion and as a result has led to more myths. The function of adding sphagnum moss peat is really to add carbohydrates to the sediment. Bacteria need to eat starch just like every other living thing. The peat decays, breaks down and the bacteria have access to the carbohydrates. Because of this, you do not need to get any special peat. You can go outside in your garden and grab a handful of grass, then dry it in your oven. This will do exactly the same job as peat, AND it's free...the bacteria don't really care what the source of starch is as long as it is in a useable form. After the peat or grass is exhausted, the bacteria can depend on the release of sugars and other carbohydrates into the sediment and water column.

Cheers,


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## Nice (18 Aug 2013)

ceg4048 said:


> your chances of success are better if you pay attention to the things that actually matter when it comes to plant health.


 
Would you please tell us all, what actually matter when it comes to plant health?

1 million dollar question


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## foxfish (18 Aug 2013)

Easy... for a hight tech tank - CO2 in abundance, for a low tech tank - lots of patience.
How you achieve the balance of CO2, fertilisers & light is the tricky bit.


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## ceg4048 (18 Aug 2013)

Exactly. CO2 is 95% of all things that matter . Aquatic plants grow because of CO2 availability. If you have a problem in your tank, there is a 95% chance that the problem is directly related to poor CO2 uptake. Next come nutrients, and the OP has already maximized his nutrient availability by purchasing a system of dosing that ensures maximum nutrient availability. If you adhere to a policy of unlimited nutrient availability then the sediment brand is rendered moot, however, it is always better to have nutrition in both the sediment and in the water column. That is easily accomplished by using osmocote or any slow release fertilizer under the sediment. The fact that Akadama is a clay product, very similar to Amazonia, means that nutrient from the water will adhere to the clay. That is a property of clay. Detritus and debris will settle into the sediment and the sediment will be populated by nitrifying bacteria. There will be a symbiotic relationship between the plant roots and the bacteria. The plant will produce Oxygen and will send Oxygen to the roots, where it will be expelled, thus ensuring the continued presence of aerobic bacteria.  These bacteria act to detoxify the sediment and to convert some nutrient containing compounds into more bioavailable forms for the plant to uptake. None of these vital processes are enhanced any better by using these products versus those products that are cheaper and which are more readily available.

Also important is to keep the tank as meticulously clean as possible and to avoid the buildup of noxious waste. Many do not heed this advice under the mistaken impression that they must "keep their parameters the same".

Having proper flow and distribution patterns in the tank are among "things that matter" poor flow and poor distribution will completely eliminate any possible advantage that can be gleaned by adding overpriced editions of commonly available compounds. So, in the same way that you can buy generic medication, you can get exactly the same active ingredient buy going to the supermarket or chemist

As clearly noted by the OP, one of those products, it turns out, uses Calcium Carbonate as it's active ingredient. Well, does you home suffer from limescale deposits on your pluming and kettle heating element? Isn't that annoying? Well guess what? That annoyance is called Calcium Carbonate CaCO3. So that means the active ingredient in a product that cost £85 per kilo, most people already have in their tap water (as a side note, I think getting Calcium for free just by opening the tap instead of shelling out £17, or £8 for it is major Fun  .)

And of course, last but certainly not least is that the hobbyist must ensure that the lighting is not overemphasized. When these basic conditions are attended to then it doesn't really matter what products you add to the sediment or even what type of sediment is being used.

Cheers,


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## virgojavier (18 Aug 2013)

WoW. Did not expect that my thread will start such adisscussion
Anyway, here are some updates



CO2 system almost ready, I need to buy some nice diffuser, bubble counter and drop checker.
This one is on top of my list, being honest all the Flo CO2 equipment looks very nice.
Flo Deci Glass CO2 Diffuser
I have also bought this peat:




Now I need to focus on conviencing wife to let me buy TMC Signature Tank  Wish me luck lol
Regards
Lucas


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## foxfish (18 Aug 2013)

Ah well you set the scene saying you we're a chemist....lol


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## Samjpikey (18 Aug 2013)

Where did you get the boc reg and how much did it cost ? 
Cheers 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## virgojavier (18 Aug 2013)

Got it for free from my friend who is a professional welder. No idea how much is it worh. U recon its expensive?
Regards
Lucas


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## sa80mark (18 Aug 2013)

Very good regulators im still looking for one on ebay, second hand the range from £80 - 125


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## Andy Thurston (18 Aug 2013)

If its a multistage reg its better than 95% of folks on here.  to buy a new BOC multistage reg new, your looking at £118 from boc. The solenoid looks quite good quality too. I'm very jealous and others will be too its capable of running a large number of tanks. Its a bit of a waste for a glass type diffuser


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## dw1305 (18 Aug 2013)

Hi all,


Nice said:


> Ok,Takashi Amano revolutionized aquarium keeping. Don't you think that such an important person, who made planted aquarium a successful and easy thing to achieve, do have researched a lot more that 20 years, and had developed the best products he could bring to market, so he can be successful in aquarium business like he is. I believe that those products are important...


I agree we need to remain a "broad church", and every-one is has the perfect right to their opinion, but the OP started by saying he was a chemist and that he had analysed the ADA products.


virgojavier said:


> - Penac W (is mainly SiO2 in around 99%), sample purchased on ebay is exactly the same -
> Penac P (CaCO3 in 98% and a bit of MgCO3), again sample ok. -
> Super Clear - this is just an Activated Carbon very fine milled


So that means they are quartz sand, limestone showing some small degree of dolomitization and charcoal. No problem with any of them, but they aren't magic substances that  you can't get any-where else.


ceg4048 said:


> The function of adding sphagnum moss peat is really to add carbohydrates to the sediment.


It does, but it also has a very high CEC and all its exchange sites are initially filled with H+ ions, so it will sequester basic cations from water column and exchange them for protons. The situation is different with nearly all other vegetation, which doesn't grow exclusively in ombrotrophic mires and adds nutrients and bases rather than removing them.

An alternative to peat is to use dead Oak leaves, which are also  proton donors and rich in tannins and humic substances that resist decomposition in a similar manner to Sphagnum peat..

cheers Darrel


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## virgojavier (27 Aug 2013)

Hello again
I've made some progress since the last posting.
Purchased a new tank, nothing fancy, just a glass tank from Pet City for 32quids... maybe one day I will be able to afford a proper optiwhite tank




A bit of peat mixed with activated carbon on the bottom:



Applied first layer of my coarse grade Akadama with a bit of Penac W:



This is how my "Power Sand" looks like after applying all the ADA stuff:



I dont have a photo, but I have also spreaded around famous Osmocote and then covered it all with the rest of Coarse Akadama, finishing it with fine fraction. Need to focus now on arranging some decent layout. This will take some time... I am after some Iwagumi stones and a bogwood.



Like I said before, I dont know if all these things makes sense and are right, but I am enjoying myself as never before. Which I think is the most important thing in this hobby.

A question to you guys:
My new tank lenght is 790mm and I am after a LED lights for it.
I've been looking to get this beauty:
Classica OTL LED Freshwater 620mm (73W) | Charterhouse Aquatics
It says its 620mm long, but it has an Adjustable legs for on tank fitting.
Am I gonna be able to adjust them to my new tank dimensions? Can not find anywhere what is the maximum length that the legs can be adjusted to.

PS. Could someone recommend some nice acrylic light diffusing background?
Regards
Lukasz


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## clone (28 Aug 2013)

Hi, mate very good start. The light is quite expensive but will pay back with the bills. What about DIY led light..there are plenty tutorials and projects in the net. The nice light difusing background is on e bay.... A4 Sheet Window Tint Film Glass Transparent Self Adhesive Vinyl Fablon Sign Viny | eBay


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## clone (28 Aug 2013)

I have got frosted glass on mine mini L and is awesome and waterproof. When get bored just peel it off and get new color vinyl


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## Lindy (28 Aug 2013)

Thanks for the link clone, I've just ordered a bit to put on the lid of my low tech shrimp tank. TMC  Mini 400 too much light even when its 30cm above tank so going to give this stuff a go. £1.99 is a lot cheaper than buying a controller!


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## Jack12 (28 Aug 2013)

ceg4048 said:


> it doesn't really matter what products you add to the sediment or even what type of sediment is being used


 
Thats very true, I had experience with the entire range of ADA ferts then switched to EI - couldn't be happier


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## Jack12 (28 Aug 2013)

Good luck with your set up Lukas!


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## Andy Thurston (28 Aug 2013)

I'd be worried about the tank being full of water on that table. maybe add a board to carry the weight of the tank ends.


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## virgojavier (28 Aug 2013)

No worries Big clown, this is just a temporary table. Just for setting the hardscape layout purpose.
The tank is going to be place on this Ikea storage bit:
EXPEDIT Storage combination - birch/black - IKEA

Thx for feedback
Regards
Lukasz


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## virgojavier (30 Aug 2013)

Right, decided to order Arcadia Overtank Luminaire T5 Freshwater 800mm OT5 through the Charterhouse Aquatics.
I can't afford it to get a LED unit at this time. Hopefully it will be alright and if all goes well it will arrive on monday


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## Henry (30 Aug 2013)

Is that substrate deep enough? I usually go for twice that. I may be wrong.


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## virgojavier (1 Sep 2013)

I am playing a bit with hardscape layout atm. Considering a small sandy beach in the left corner. What you guys think?


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## terry82517 (1 Sep 2013)

That hardscape layout is brilliant imo! Fantastic groves on that rock!


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## TimT (1 Sep 2013)

I'l 2nd that! Those grooves looks great! It looks more weathered than the usual rocks used in many aquariums but still have character with the dramatic grooves. Which kind of rock is that?


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## virgojavier (2 Sep 2013)

Thanks guys! Just got a phone call from wife, Luminaire had arrived this morning Will post some pics later after work.


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## virgojavier (2 Sep 2013)

Folks
I really need your opinions. Is it better with the sand? Or without it?


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## terry82517 (2 Sep 2013)

Without


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## sa80mark (2 Sep 2013)

A bit of both really, It looked good without the sand and it could look good with it, just a bigggggg bug bear of mineis seeing the sand meet the substrate  like you have at the minute,  I know people dont look at that part much bit for me it always draws my eye, so I guess if you like the sand you need to have it all along the front 

Mark


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## virgojavier (2 Sep 2013)

0.5 : 1.5 so far


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## virgojavier (3 Sep 2013)

Right, Wife didn't like the sand either so decided to get rid off it.
Going off for a weekend so I will plant it next week, need to order some plants from somewhere.
Have not come up with conlussion what kind of plants, so your suggestions will be very helpful.
Regards
Lukasz


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## virgojavier (5 Sep 2013)

Some random snaps:













Regards
Lukasz


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## virgojavier (13 Sep 2013)

Not much to report, i have made some purchase through co2art.co.uk
Well recommend it. Bought a drop checker and a ada style thermometer, both for less th 4 quids.
Proper quality.
Going for a trip tomorrow to The Green Machine to purchase some plants, so will post some pics.
I want to get some advice, help th picking the right plants etc.

Regards 
Lukasz


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## virgojavier (15 Sep 2013)

Had a fantastic day out in North Wales yesterday and visited The Green Machine on my way back.
Had a chat with one of the staff who was quite sceptic about using Akadema (he never heared of it), but he advised me to cover all my Akadema with a unipac sand.
Do you guys think its a good idea? I've been thinknig about this all evening yesterday and still can not come to a conclusions if this is the right thing to do...

Also bought myself this beauty



I dont like the green pipes and the spray bar, so they will be replaced with the clear ones.


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## squid102 (15 Sep 2013)

It depends what look you are after. If you don't like the look of the akadama then cover it. Otherwise, don't bother. I'd be concerned about the finer grain sand working its way down through the akadama. If you want an area of sand, like the front, then I would do that full depth sand. 

I agree about the Eheim pipes. They are functional but not pretty on an open top tank. Go for the clear.


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## virgojavier (17 Sep 2013)

Few shoots from the trip to The Green Machine (sorry for the quality, I used iPhone and its quite dark in there):












Regards
Lukasz


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## Conger (17 Sep 2013)

Sorry, just to repeat the question, what stone is that you've used? Is it Manten Stone, or similar?


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## virgojavier (17 Sep 2013)

Sorry, forgot to answer your question. It's defo a Manten Stone, I've bought it in my local store, it was called a Baltic stone.
You can get it here:
http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/baltic-rock-per-kg-p-5844.html

Regards
Lukasz


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## TOO (17 Sep 2013)

This is not "real" Manten stone. Manten stone are part of the ADA product range. You can see the real deal at TGM. They look very different.

The stones you have look nice nevertheless - and the scape very promising 

Thomas


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## virgojavier (17 Sep 2013)

Finally after weeks of preparations, tank has been flooded and planted. 
Pics just after flooding, as you can see no problem with cloud water. Sieving Akadama was obviously a good idea.
Plants used:
- Anubias barteri var. nana
- Anubias barteri var. nana Petite
- Egeria densa
- Eleocharis sp.
- Hydrocotyle tripartita
- Limnophila hippuridoides
- Ludwigia sp.
- Nymphaea lotus
- Nymphoides sp. Taiwan
- Staurogyne repens


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## squid102 (17 Sep 2013)

Looking good. The water looks lovely and clear.

The anubias need tying or gluing to the rocks rather than being planted in the substrate though, otherwise their roots can rot. 

Are you getting enough flow around the tank from the spraybar being that short? I can see you having problems with the right end of the tank otherwise. It might be an idea to put it on the left wall so that the flow reaches more of the tank. Better still, change it for a full length spray bar along the back.


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## virgojavier (17 Sep 2013)

This spray bar is a temp solution. I am heading for a glass one, but run out of funds and the moment. Need to wait till october. I am considering lilly pipe or a glass spray bar, same as George Farmer uses in his recent scape.

Thanks for the hint with anubias,  will try to correct it. 
Thanks 
Lukasz


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## Brian Murphy (18 Sep 2013)

virgojavier said:


> This spray bar is a temp solution. I am heading for a glass one, but run out of funds and the moment. Need to wait till october. I am considering lilly pipe or a glass spray bar, same as George Farmer uses in his recent scape.
> 
> Thanks for the hint with anubias, will try to correct it.
> Thanks
> Lukasz


 
What hose size are you using?


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## virgojavier (18 Sep 2013)

16/22


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## virgojavier (18 Sep 2013)

Just done some tests:
Ammonia - above 10mg/l!!!
NO2 - 0.50 mg/l
NO3 - 10 mg/l
KH - 3
GH - 6
pH - 6.1

I hope this is temporary problem, I am quite sure this is Osmocote releasing some ammonia.
I can only hope that it is only temporery issue.
Doing about 40% water change every day. CO2 is running at 3 b/s.

Hope I didnt overdose Osmocote...
I have squeezed a sponge from my old filter into the tank, this should speed up the process.

Regards
Lukasz


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## virgojavier (19 Sep 2013)

Did any of forum members came across with overdosing Osmocote?
What to do in this case? The reason why I am asking is because I've never had such a high concentrations of ammonia in any of my tanks before.
Should I stick some ammonia absorbing medium in my filter? Should I get any chemicals involved? Or should I just give it few days to mature adding some more bacteries?
The question is will the bacteries be able to co-op with this kind of ammonia concentrations?


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## ceg4048 (19 Sep 2013)

Why not just relax and wait for the tank to do what it does naturally? You really need to stop testing because you are causing yourself more stress than is really necessary. These test kits are not accurate, first of all, and second of all, you should be doing frequent large water changes anyway, so that will reduce the concentration. Suggested Osmocote amounts are a few teaspoons per square feet placed on the bottom glass, so if you followed this basic guideline then it will not be any worse than if you had used Amazonia.

Keep your lighting very subdued and this will prevent those algal blooms which are triggered by ammonia, such as green water.

Cheers,


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## virgojavier (19 Sep 2013)

Thank you for your feedback Ceg4048. By keeping my lighting very subdued you mean what?
Im running my both 24W T5 from 2pm to 10 pm. Should I reduce the amount of time? or switch one 24W off?

Day 3



Water became I little bit cloudy and there are signs of small film on the surface...
Done 50% water change today anyway.
Ammonia still miles high.

Regards
Lukasz


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## foxfish (19 Sep 2013)

If you re read Cegs post you will note that test kits are not accurate, the kits you buy will not give you a true reading so don't be mislead!!
Your light is to much, use one bulb for 6 hours a day, do as many water changes as practical ie one every day.
You will need to keep the light low & water changes high for at least two weeks & then (if you want) you can start to slow down the water changes & very slowly increase the light.


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## virgojavier (19 Sep 2013)

I am not using kits to measure it. I am using spectrophotometric methods. In my lab to measure it will stick to your advices. Thank you very much!


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## stu_ (19 Sep 2013)

Nice start, love the look of that stone
Def agree with the above post ^^^^^
The other thing i would consider, would be to move the spraybar to one side, rather than only half way across the back, with the diffuser on the opposite side.
Though that may just be me.....


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## virgojavier (19 Sep 2013)

The problem is the spraybar is too long to be fitted at the side (30cm). I am going to get a lilly pipe, but im skinned atm


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## stu_ (19 Sep 2013)

virgojavier said:


> I am going to get a lilly pipe, but im skinned atm


This i can sympathise with.
Would the elbow joint not work, or is the flow too narrow?


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## LondonDragon (19 Sep 2013)

virgojavier said:


> The problem is the spraybar is too long to be fitted at the side (30cm).


Could always cut it


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## Pinkmummy79 (19 Sep 2013)

Yep, trim it you know it makes sense, if only there as a temporary measure, gives everything the best possible option for the short term
I have two spray bars on my 4 foot, I trimmed one so they would fit together nicely

Sent from my LT30p using Tapatalk 2


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## nanocube (20 Sep 2013)

It looks nice.Im looking forward when it mature and grow up

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk 2


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## ceg4048 (20 Sep 2013)

virgojavier said:


> Water became I little bit cloudy and there are signs of small film on the surface...


Yep, as mentioned by foxfish, this is a sure sign that you are using too much like and that your CO2 is poor. Disable one bulb if possible, and if not possible then reduce the photoperiod to no more than about 5-6 hours. You should follow the procedure mentioned in the thread Melting Marsilea hirsuta & Staurogyne repens? | UK Aquatic Plant Society

You need a longer spraybar across the back.

Cheers,


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## virgojavier (20 Sep 2013)

Cheers guys!
Plan for today after work:
1. Extend the spray bar (temporary), can you guys point me where I could get a nice glass spray bar?
2. Switch off one bulb and reduce the photoperiod to 6 hours. Lamp will kick in at 4pm and will go off at 10pm. CO2 1h before lamp goes on and off.
3. I am going to order one of these inline diffusers from co2art.co.uk to help distribute CO2 around the tank.
4. Another 50% water change.

Regards
Lukasz


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## nanocube (20 Sep 2013)

You can made it yourself.Check on ebay :clear acrylic tube 26mm,1meter long and you can make beautiful spraybar

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk 2


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## nanocube (20 Sep 2013)

nanocube said:


> You can made it yourself.Check on ebay :clear acrylic tube 26mm,1meter long and you can make beautiful spraybar
> 
> Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk 2


 
Sorry it should be 16mm


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## virgojavier (20 Sep 2013)

Thanks mate, gonna order 50mm one


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## virgojavier (20 Sep 2013)

Day 4:




I've temporarly extended the spray bar as you guys have advised me.
Another 50% water changed completed, this time on top of tap water I've used 4l of DI water which I brought from my lab. 
I have also ordered an acrylic tube on ebay as "nanocube" advised.
The bad news is that I dont know how to disable one bulb on this Arkadia lamp. I though it will be done by simply removing one bulb, but it can not be done like that. If the blub is removed then the other one is also not working... I am not an electrician and I dont want to play with all the wires in there, so I will leave it as it is.

Also moved the CO2 diffused closer to outlet pipe, this should in my opinion help to distribute the CO2 around the tank.

Regards
Lukasz


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## foxfish (20 Sep 2013)

Good effort with the spray bar extension 
A full length one will be more effective but I like your resourcefulness.
If you have reflectors you can invert one to diffuse the light if not .. then your plants will soon let you now if they are being attacked by various forms of the dreaded & unwelcome enemy 
Most guys who are new to planted tanks will use to much light & to little C02 but at the end of the day its all about enjoying the hobby & finding out for yourself.


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## virgojavier (20 Sep 2013)

Sorted


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## virgojavier (21 Sep 2013)

Day 5:
Moved back the CO2 diffuser to the front glass. In my opinion its giving me better CO2 distribiution, I can see the bubbles everywhere.
Second lamp is covered with kitchen foil, so I have limited light as advised.
Ammonia has dropped down to 4 mg/l, still high but at least i've got some progress.


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## ceg4048 (21 Sep 2013)

You......cannot......tell.....by.....looking at bubbles. The bubbles are meaningless.
I've mentioned it several times to take the pH readings and to confirm your hypothesis.
Did you check the thread I linked to in post#68? Full details and analysis of the procedure results are there.

Cheers,


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## virgojavier (21 Sep 2013)

Yes I did. I've got digital pH meter. I am keep checking the pH every hour.
6.3 when the lights are switched off, atm lights are off since 4 pm, pH is 6.0.
kH 3


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## virgojavier (21 Sep 2013)

I will do my best to create a pH profile tomorrow, will measure it every hour.


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## virgojavier (22 Sep 2013)

Day 6:
Still experimenting with position of CO2 diffuser, this time again closer to the outflow pipe.
I have removed the anubias from the left side and replace it with Pogostemon Erectus (2 pots). In my opinion it was a bit too monotonic with anubias in left, middle and right section of the tank

I have also done some mesurements today:
9:00 ph 6.3
10:00 ph 6.2
11:00 pH 6.2
12:00 pH 6.5 (50% water change)
13:00 pH 6.5
13:00 pH 6.4
14:00 pH 6.4
15:00 pH 6.4 (CO2 kicks in)
16:00 pH 6.1 (lights on)
17:00 pH 6.1
18:00 pH 6.0
19:00 pH 6.0
20:00 pH 5.9 so far

KH 3
GH 8
NO3 20mg/l
NO2 1.25 mg/l
NH4 4mg/l

From other observations I can see that my Ludwigia started melting a bit.


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## ceg4048 (23 Sep 2013)

Yeah mate, that's just not good enough at all. This is why the Ludwigia is melting.

From that data, you need to be at least pH 5.3 at Lights on 16:00.

I say "at least because it looks like your KH is very low so it moves easily with small changes in acidity. You'll probably need it to drop to  below 5, but try 5.3 as a target value for now.

Try this: remove the grill from the filter inlet and place the diffuser directly under the open tube so that all the bubbles go into the filter. Repeat the measurements. You can start the measurements at gas ON 15:00. The Gas-ON measurement is our reference. From Gas-ON to Lights-ON you need to drop the pH by a full unit. And remember that you are only using one bulb now. Imagine how difficult things will be with two bulbs....

Cheers,


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## nanocube (23 Sep 2013)

ceg4048 said:


> Yeah mate, that's just not good enough at all. This is why the Ludwigia is melting.
> 
> From that data, you need to be at least pH 5.3 at Lights on 16:00.
> 
> ...


 
With all my respect for you Ceg4048 I need explanation why 5.3 is a target now...?I always thought that pH should remain at 6.8 level so in this case why not raise KH first?I dont want argue with you,and please notice I'm new.Thanks to you I opened my eyes and stopped believing in myths.Thanks in advance.
Regards
Tom


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## virgojavier (23 Sep 2013)

Day 7:
I've been at work all day so didnt have a chance to measure anything.
I have placed the diffuser just below the outflow, as you suggested Clive.
Max I can drop my pH is 5.9, no chance any lower then that.
5.3? Is this not gonna hurt the plants?


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## aliclarke86 (23 Sep 2013)

No

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## virgojavier (23 Sep 2013)

What about fauna? I cant imagin keeping some fish in pH 5.3...


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## aliclarke86 (23 Sep 2013)

Maybe the amount of co2 you need to drop your pH that much would have an effect on live stock but if you have only plants at the moment you are in a position to pump co2 in at a very high rate. You can ween them off for a while before adding your any fish. 

I'm sure Clive will jump in again.

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## ceg4048 (24 Sep 2013)

nanocube said:


> With all my respect for you Ceg4048 I need explanation why 5.3 is a target now...?I always thought that pH should remain at 6.8 level so in this case why not raise KH first?I dont want argue with you,and please notice I'm new.Thanks to you I opened my eyes and stopped believing in myths.Thanks in advance. Regards Tom


Yeah mate, you really need to forget about pH hurting fish or plants. The pH religion is probably the biggest myth we have in this hobby. pH is such a complicated parameter that very few people have a firm grip, and that leaves them vulnerable to scare tactics.

The next time you eat an orange or drink some lemonade...or even fish and chips, squeeze some juice or put a teaspoon of vinegar in a cup of water and measure the pH. You're gonna see that the pH drops very low, but this doesn't hurt when you are eating. Things just taste more tangy. You could try the same trick with pool acid, or battery acid. The pH will be driven to very similar pH HOWEVER, I would suggest that you do NOT put battery acid on your fish and chips!

Therein lies the fundamental paradox of pH. A toxic substance can have exactly the same pH as a benign substance such as a substance that we put in our mouths every day. So the art of pH lies not in the number itself, but in the REASON that the number is there. If the water is driven to a certain pH by a toxic substance then that number is bad, but if the number is there due to non-toxic substance, then the number is not an issue. Of course CO2 is toxic, but the toxicity is not due to the pH in the water column. It's due to the pH of the fishes blood inside the body.

Generally, weak acids like citrus, vinegar and CO2 (which fizzy drinks are loaded with) have no issues even though the pH can be driven to very low numbers. Strong acids however are a different story, and so the toxicity is driven by the substance, not by the resulting pH.



virgojavier said:


> What about fauna? I cant imagin keeping some fish in pH 5.3...



Did you realize that the fish you intend to keep live in waters stained by tannic acids, and which reach pH below 3 in some cases?

Cheers,


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## ceg4048 (24 Sep 2013)

virgojavier said:


> Max I can drop my pH is 5.9, no chance any lower then that.


I think you'll need to increase the injection rate to drive it lower. Hopefully it will not cause too much burping in the filter.

Cheers,


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## virgojavier (24 Sep 2013)

No worries Clive. Filter is in the other room, so it can burp as much as it wants lol 
Will try to increase it then.
Day 8:
50% water changed (4l of DI water), CO2 increased.



The less demanding plants are showing some signs of grow. Egeria Densa is growing quite fast, Anubias is just about to show his second flower.
Limnophila hippuridoides is also indicating some grow.

Now then.... why Ludwigia which is suppose to be less demanding then Limnophilia is melting?

PS. I have also change 4dKH solution in drop checker, so it is temp a bit darker. Just before the change it was quite lemon.

Regards Lukasz


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## ceg4048 (25 Sep 2013)

virgojavier said:


> Now then.... why Ludwigia which is suppose to be less demanding then Limnophilia is melting?


Well, the thing is that we really can't see CO2 or flow patterns all that well. At the location where the Ludwigia is, the combination of high PAR and low CO2 availability may be less favorable than the combination of those two key factors are where the other plants are located. The angle that the leaves are, for example, with respect to the flow direction may be unfavorable. There are many environmental factors that we simply do not have the tools to measure, so the only thing we can do is to observe the effects and to correlate the observations to known causal factors.

With the configuration you have now, I would continue to increase the injection until the Ludwigia shows signs of improvement. Liquid carbon addition might also be called for temporarily, except, I believe the Egeria does not respond well to liquid carbon, so inject rate increase is the wisest course.

I can't recall if we talked about removing some of your filter media to improve flow rate, as there have been so many similar cases recently.

After the leaves transition to submerged form they will be more adapted to an aqueous environment so that it will be easier to reduce the injection rate and to reinstall the filter inlet mesh. It will be less damaging to use the second bulb, and so forth. Right now, it's best if you consider the tank to be a hospital ward for deep sea diving accidents...

Cheers,


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## Samjpikey (25 Sep 2013)

Hi , 
I'm watching this as I too have a low dkh water of 3-4 . 
I currently have a steady ph of 6.3 and that drops to ph 5.7-6 at lights on ,  I have seen great growth etc and fish are very happy . 




ceg4048 said:


> After the leaves transition to submerged form they will be more adapted to an aqueous environment so that it will be easier to reduce the injection rate and to reinstall the filter inlet mesh.
> Cheers,



Ceg at what point would you suggest that the plants have adjusted to submersed form and by how much in regards to a ph drop at lights on can you lower the injection rate ? 
Also If a spray bar is used the full length of the tank and the 10x rule is accounted for, if we was to increase flow (by adding circulation pumps ) would this have a better impact in distributing the co2  thus driving the ph lower without increasing the injection rate ? 
Cheers 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


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## ceg4048 (25 Sep 2013)

Hi Sam,
It's really hard to say exactly. One set of numbers doesn't fit all because of all the variables. Even though the pH drop in your tank produces great results, it won't necessarily translate to another tank because of the number of variables. Generally though, when the plant has reproduced the same number of leaves with the similar surface area, then you are about there. That's just my rule of thumb, not a hard fact. So this might be several weeks or several months. It depends on the plant as well as lighting, rate of growth, CO2, flow, and on, and on. So, for me, if I flooded the tank with a plant that had 20 square cm of emmersed leaves, and then it produces 20 square cm of new submerged leaves, I reckon the transition is about complete. So for example, anubias will take a lot longer time than hygrophilla.

If you start turning up the light, or start dropping the injection rate before the transition is complete then your chances of incurring algae increase on the anubias. For plants like mosses, it's more difficult to tell, but again, I just eyeball the amount of mass, and if it's doubled from when I first flooded it then I reckon it's arrived. This is a very crude rule of thumb, and it's probably over-conservative. Again, that's why I'm never in a hurry to add fish. I can wait 2 months, it's not a big deal for me. Others are less patient though. It's just a matter of managing risk.

Adding more flow might help even if you have already accounted for the 10X rule. This is another difficult question to answer unilaterally. There is a range of flow velocity that is useful. Going above or below that range becomes counterproductive. The range is something like 1-3 knots. However, as plant mass increases it blocks flow so that what was once excessive in a low-plant-mass tank might actually become insufficient as the tank grows in. George Farmer had great results in the past with a 20X rule. All I can say is try it, check your pH profile and see if it works. Sorry I can't be more precise, but generally, the better your flow and distribution technique, the lower you can drop your injection rate, and that definitely helps the fish so it's definitely worth pursuing.

Cheers,


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## virgojavier (25 Sep 2013)

Day 9
Have not done the water change today, due to lack of time. The arylic pipe has arrived, so I have drilled some holes. The bar is 50 cm long and I have drilled them every 3 cm. CO2 kicks in now at 14:00, so 2 hours before the lights. Atm pH in the tank is around 5.6 with 4-5 bubbles per second.


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## ceg4048 (25 Sep 2013)

Hi Lukasz,
				 That certainly looks neater. When we use extended spraybars, I always worry that the velocity of the jets decreases. Not sure if your filter has the muscle to drive the spraybar. When you drop the water level, do the jets make contact with the front glass, or do they fall short?

Cheers,


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## virgojavier (25 Sep 2013)

Hardly, I would say they reach about 3/4 of the distance. But I've done some small experiement, I have squeezed the filter sponge from my other tank and then I observed all the debris demonstrating how the flow is being directed. It looks ok in my opinion, flow gets everywhere.
I am still considering purchasing Lilly pipe...

My filter specs are as follows:
For Aquariums: 120-250 Litres 
Throughput: 950 l/h 

Please dont tell me that it is too weak... I've spent a little fortune on it

Regards
Lukasz


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## ceg4048 (25 Sep 2013)

Ummmmm.......well, companies who make filters don't know anything about plants. The filter rating you see on the filter brochures are for fish, not plants. So that throughput rating you listed, from our point of view, is for a 95 L tank....

For maximum spraybar effectiveness, this is the sort of "reach" you need:




Cheers,


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## virgojavier (25 Sep 2013)

I will take a pic tomorrow during the water change to demonstrate.
I am thinking about different option, what do you think if I could cut the bar in a half and stick it to the left side of the tank? I will defo get a higher pressure in the "nozzles" but is this gonna be enough?

Once again, Thank You for your help Clive! 
Lukasz


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## ceg4048 (25 Sep 2013)

No worries mate,



virgojavier said:


> I am thinking about different option, what do you think if I could cut the bar in a half and stick it to the left side of the tank?


Well, that would leave you with the configuration you had with the green Eheim tube, wouldn't it? Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean.

I think leave it for now because you've had some improvement with the other adjustments we've made even using the cheesy green Eheim.

Normally, when we experiment with DIY spraybars, the idea is to start out with cheap PVC tubing and to try different hole sizes and patterns. Then when we're satisfied we copy the final design on the expensive acrylic. I failed to mention that earlier, and I do apologize.

If we see too much deterioration using this bar then we can switch back to the old Eheim green temporarily.

Lets focus on dropping the pH with injection rate and getting the Ludwigia to cooperate.

Cheers,


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## virgojavier (26 Sep 2013)

Day 10:
50% water changed:



I have discovered some brown algeas on my staurogyne repens today...




Pogostemon erectus looks a bit brownish as well...



Nymphaea lotus is growing nicely



Hydrocotyle tripatita




Any suggestions? Too much nitrates?
Regards
Lukasz


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## foxfish (26 Sep 2013)

Well at least you are in a good position having no fish in the tank will allow safe experimentation & on that basis I would turn up the gas!


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## Dave Pierce (26 Sep 2013)

Or reduce the light intensity, or both.

I made the same mistake of having way too much light in my first planted tank...ended up with lots of brown algae, so i would reduce the intensity &/or increase the co2 before it's covered in the stuff. I'd say reducing the light intensity is the easier option.


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## virgojavier (26 Sep 2013)

I can't reduce more light becuase I am gonna end up without a light lol. I am already purging lots of CO2 through the tank... Is this not getting a bit insane?
How come in Good algae article which was posted by George in Algae thread it says:
Brown Algae (diatoms) are more likely to appear in low-light aquarium and new set-ups, with excess silicate acids (SiO2). Its been known that strong lights make this algae go away, but they might still be seen on lower, shadowed, plant leaves. It can also be found on aquarium glass, gravel and decoration. It can be easily removed manually, since it has a soft/slimy structure. Otos (this catfish relishes this type of algae) and Snails can easily keep this algae in low numbers.​ 
I​


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## Dave Pierce (26 Sep 2013)

This post helped me a while ago:
Diatom dilemma... | UK Aquatic Plant Society

The silicate thing appears to be a myth. 

I'm sure ceg4048 will help further, he's pretty much the reason why I have not had any brown algae in the first 4 weeks of my current scape!


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## foxfish (26 Sep 2013)

You are not experiencing anything that unusual so don't threat to much 
Most guys starting out have various issues with their new set ups, the forum is full of similar situations but, it is obviously possible to get things growing nicely.

The problem is we can only suggest things to try & help you as every tank is different, your method of injecting may not be the most efficient or your flow rate might not be high enough it is difficult to say without actually seeing the tank.
You might need a little more patience & experimenting before it all come together, you plants are having a tough time too, they have been grown with their leafs out of the water & under the most exacting conditions & now find themselves in a different & changing environment!
Anubis are particularly prone to algae, I have never had much success with them! Certain plants are more tolerant & adapting than others but generally speaking the fast growing stems are great for conference building.. it is all a learning curve so don't loose heart...
I lot of people are very surprised just how much C02 you have to use especially if other  components are not in sync but 9 times out of ten any problems are C02 related.


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## ceg4048 (27 Sep 2013)

Lukasz,
		   Turn your light off for a couple days. Your CO2/flow/distribution is still problematic. There are no algae that prefer low light, and diatoms do not care about about silicates, so you need to forget all that. Do you recall I mentioned in posts #9 and #16 that none of your substrate adjuncts will save you from poor CO2, and that flow/distribution is what counts more than anything else? Well this is exactly the reason. You do not need to look anywhere else for the source of your problems. If you cannot upgrade your filter throughput then think about removing some filter media to improve throughput and/or supplementing the flow with a Koralia.

Cheers,


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## virgojavier (27 Sep 2013)

Day 11
Turned light on just for few seconds to take a photo. Will leave it off till monday, but Ludwigia started showing signs of life So as the other plants.
I have checked ammonia today.... 0.5mg/l, NO2 is peaking at the moment, so cycling is going well.
I recon one more week and I will be able to let in some Ottos, which will deal with brown algeas if they wont dissapear.


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## Dave Pierce (27 Sep 2013)

The blackout should do the world of good. It will work out for you I'm sure


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## virgojavier (27 Sep 2013)

Should I cover the tank with some black plastic bin bag? Or just leave it with no lights on?


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## nanocube (27 Sep 2013)

virgojavier said:


> Should I cover the tank with some black plastic bin bag? Or just leave it with no lights on?


Just leave it without the lights...Lets wsit until Mon.P.M sent


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## ceg4048 (28 Sep 2013)

virgojavier said:


> I recon one more week and I will be able to let in some Ottos, which will deal with brown algeas if they wont dissapear.


Well, the choice is yours, but this is a really bad idea. You must learn to fix the cause of algae, NOT to sweep it under the rug. This is why people continue to have problems. Fish cannot solve algae problems, and their presence in the tank limit your ability to find imaginative or radical solutions. If I were you I wouldn't even be thinking about fish for a long time.

Cheers,


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## foxfish (28 Sep 2013)

foxfish said:


> Well at least you are in a good position having no fish in the tank will allow safe experimentation & on that basis I would turn up the gas!


 I have to agree with Ceg, fish will just complicate things!


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## virgojavier (28 Sep 2013)

Fair enough, I will wait. Can you guys let me know when I can slow down with 50% water changes?


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## foxfish (28 Sep 2013)

How often are you changing 50% at the moment?


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## sdlra (28 Sep 2013)

me personally always do the 50% water changes once a wk........a bind but it does the trick !


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## virgojavier (28 Sep 2013)

Every day.


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## aliclarke86 (28 Sep 2013)

I usually back off to every other day after the first week and so on and so forth week by week (depending on how things are going)

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## virgojavier (28 Sep 2013)

Well its been 11 days so far with 50% everyday, so I recon I could back off to every 2 days now.


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## foxfish (28 Sep 2013)

50% a day is good, keep it up if you can!
At what point do you change the water...lights on or off?
I would try increasing the C02 a little more even if this is temporary, I think it is worth experimenting while you don't have any livestock.


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## virgojavier (28 Sep 2013)

It realy depends, sometimes when lights are off, sometimes not. I am working most of the week days so its hard to keep it on regular basis.
I am going for Koralia Nano 900 pump after I am gonna get paid.


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## tim (28 Sep 2013)

Best to only cut back water changes once the algae issues clear ime.


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## ceg4048 (28 Sep 2013)

There is no point getting disillusioned with the water changes. The more water changes, the better of course, but really, a compromise to 2X-3X per week will be OK. Change 99% instead of 50%. It doesn't take that much longer. When you drop the water level and expose the leaves to air, wipe the leaves with your index finger and thumb so that the slime rubs off. When the feeling is more a rough surface instead of being slick then you will have removed one more barrier to gas movement across the leaf/water interface. Try to do the change just before the lights on if possible, but if not possible then don't worry about it, but clean the leaves. So, do fewer changes, but maximize the effectiveness of the water change by immaculately cleaning the tank.

If you are short of cash, then wait a bit before buying the Koralia. I think you mentioned that you saw the problem plants start to improve. So just save your money, wait and see if they continue to improve and only buy the pump if the improvement stops and if deterioration starts.

Again, the fundamental problems has been gas exchange in the plants. Adjusting the injection rate even higher will be an effective strategy for now when combined with your spraybar configuration. A little bit of elbow grease is called for now to keep things improving. Light exacerbates the problems of poor gas exchange and that is why the diatoms appear.

You need to change you perception of algae. This is so very important. They are not foreign invaders into the tank. They are part of the eco-system in every way, exactly as are the bacteria you are trying to propagate. Algal blooms are a sign of weak plants in exactly the same way as rotting leaves or translucent tissue are. So the worst thing you can do is to attack the problem by trying to hide the symptoms. That's another reason I think surface skimmers and so forth are such an illusion. You WANT to see the symptoms exposed so that you can address it properly, instead of creating an optical illusion that there is no problem. If you hide the problem instead of fixing it then the problem will later manifest itself in some more terrible way. Then you will be scratching your head trying to understand why you had that next terrible problem. Diatoms are the first indicator of poor gas exchange combined with too much light. They just happent to be quicker off the mark than some other species. When the problem chronic and then becomes more acute those other species will then take advantage.

Algae are predators. They are not competitors. Predators wait patiently to find and attack the weak. Therefore, do everything to maximize plant health and the predators will see that there is no point wasting energy chasing healthy prey.

Cheers,


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## virgojavier (28 Sep 2013)

As you requested Clive and Fox, I have increased CO2 again, can not even count the bubbles, because its going in realy fast.
From 6.4 pH before CO2 kicks in, after 2 hourse so far, pH is 5.3-5.4 lol ;D Later on I will post a short movie of how it looks like.
Regards 
Lukasz


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## David Shanahan (28 Sep 2013)

I took cegs advice and installed spray bars to improve flow, removed some media from filters to increase flow and even installed an in line diffuser to improve co2. Reduced lighting from 4 bulbs to 2 and did a 3 day blackout. 

I had major diatom issues and now I have no algae at all, anywhere. Not even the green stuff... Never seen a tank stay so clean.


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## virgojavier (28 Sep 2013)

Day 12:
Ammonia - 0 ppm
NO2 - above 5 ppm
NO3 - 30 ppm
KH - 4
GH - 9
Another 50% water changed completed
Like I have mentioned above pH has reached 5.4 today and seems to stay on that value. So I think CO2 is ok now.
Lights on only to take a photo.
Staurogyne repens still covered with brown algea. Other plants showing signs of improvement.


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## nanocube (28 Sep 2013)

What about PO4 for now?And I think Egeria Densa needs a trimming 
Regards
Tomasz


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## virgojavier (4 Oct 2013)

Busy week so didn't have a time to do a frequent updates 
Day 18



The tank is fully matured now I think, both ammonia and nitrites are 0ppm
I have removed the biggest anubias from the right side of the tank, also Egeria densa is gone. 
I am looking to get some other plants on the background, any suggestions?
I have finally plant my front carpet using Eleocharis sp mini purchased from Underwatergarden on Ebay. Next day delivery, plants arrived in very good condition, well worth of recommending.

The brown algeas are gone, CO2 is going in as crazy, so I decided to bring on the lights (1x24W), the other is still off waiting for a green light from you guys.

I am planning some shopping next week:
- Hydor Koralia Nano Evolution 900 Circulation Pump​
- Eheim bioMech - 1ltr (Mechanical Filtration)​ to replace this Eheim MECHpro - 1ltr (Mechanical Filtration)​ which is currently at the bottom of my filter.
- CO2 Atomizer Diffuser from CO2art.co.uk

Regards
Lukasz


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## ceg4048 (4 Oct 2013)

virgojavier said:


> The tank is fully matured now I think, both ammonia and nitrites are 0ppm


This is NOT true. That tank is not even close to being mature.
You cannot determine the maturity of a tank by measuring ammonia and nitrite.



virgojavier said:


> Eheim bioMech - 1ltr (Mechanical Filtration) to replace this Eheim MECHpro - 1ltr (Mechanical Filtration) which is currently at the bottom of my filter.


This is a waste of money.

Cheers,


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## Dave Pierce (4 Oct 2013)

I love how blunt and straightforward ceg4048 is! However, cannot argue. I didn't consider my last aquascape mature until 4-5 months down the line. My current tank has been running 6 weeks and has some time to go before mature.

I like the new plantings of hairgrass...should look good once it's carpeted fully across the foreground


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## mark4785 (4 Oct 2013)

virgojavier said:


> Busy week so didn't have a time to do a frequent updates
> Day 18
> 
> I am looking to get some other plants on the background, any suggestions?


 
Planting one of the many species of echinodorus plant at the back would be my suggestion. They are not too difficult to grow and if you plant one of these so that it somewhat over shadows the Anubias var nana you can impede algae growth (which typically grows on slow growing plants in high light environments) whilst still keeping it happy.


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## virgojavier (5 Oct 2013)

Thx for the feedback Gents. Quick update from today, 50% water changed (DI Water), stones cleaned with toothbrush.
Small rearrangement with anubias, splited it in to a half and separated.




From Above:




Side:




Regards
Lukasz


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## foxfish (5 Oct 2013)

looking very clean


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## virgojavier (6 Oct 2013)

Day 20:
Hydor Coralia Nano 900 is in the tank now, flow is fantastic. No doubt it should bring some improvment within the tank.
A little bit dissapointed, because the reviews were saying its very silent, well my ears can hear it from 3 meters



Started dosing Flourish Excel (10 ml today) and then 2ml every day, will see if this will help.
Anubias showed off with some flower today.
Considering moving Nymphaea Lotus into the right side of the tank.

Regards
Lukasz


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## Gary Nelson (6 Oct 2013)

Dave Pierce said:


> I love how blunt and straightforward ceg4048 is!



Yes me too, but this guy really knows his stuff, I read 99% of his posts and it is top information, and I myself have learnt hell of allot from it and saved me allot of headaches along the way  so cheers Clive.... BIG thumb up.


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## Pinkmummy79 (10 Oct 2013)

I'm inclined to agree, some people say he doesn't exist in the flesh, but he's the forum's AI generated by the Matrix

Sent from my LT30p using Tapatalk 4


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## virgojavier (10 Oct 2013)

Bought myself this inline atomizer:
CO2 Aquarium Atomizer Diffuser System 16/22mm Hose | CO2Art.co.uk - CO2 Aquarium Specialists
Connected everything up, left the co2 regulator exactly as it was when using it on ceramic diffuser and I cant get any CO2....
Pressure keeps building up in the pipework, I've been playing with regulator and atm I've got at least 5 bar on the output and still nothing.
I have got rid off all the check valves and bubble counter just to eliminate any leak, but I think its not leaking at all, it just dosent want to go through the atomizer.

Any advices?

Lukasz


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## wisiu (10 Oct 2013)

I had the same and also no CO2 out of this. Made myself inline reactor from water filter housing and it works great. No pressure required at all.


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## tim (10 Oct 2013)

Have you tried filling the atomiser with bleach soaking for a couple of hours then dechlorinating, sometimes residue from the manufacturing processes can cause blocking of the membrane.


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## Dave Pierce (10 Oct 2013)

I have that in-line atomiser. Works great for me.

Not sure if this is a stupid question or not, or I don't know whether this makes any difference, but have you connected the in-line diffuser the right way up?

You should hear a hissing noise coming from the diffuser if it's working. You have to get quite close to hear this.

Cheers
Dave


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## Dave Pierce (10 Oct 2013)

P.s. I'm running at just over 2 bar, 35psi.


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## virgojavier (10 Oct 2013)

Shouldn't make andy difference, but i've connected it facing the CO2 tubing input down, not up. I can hear the hissing noise, buy can not see anything co2 mist comming out from hosepipe to the tank. WTF?


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## virgojavier (10 Oct 2013)

The only problem is that I am not sure if I am running at 2bar or 35psi, because my outgage is in l/min..



I had it at 2l/min when I was running at ceramic diffuser and that was a lots of bubbles per second.
Any ideas?


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## tim (10 Oct 2013)

virgojavier said:


> Shouldn't make andy difference, but i've connected it facing the CO2 tubing input down, not up. I can hear the hissing noise, buy can not see anything co2 mist comming out from hosepipe to the tank. WTF?


If there's no mist in the tank there must be a leak somewhere, the gas has to go somewhere or the tubing would pop off with that kind of pressure.


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## virgojavier (10 Oct 2013)

I've got a proper CO2 tubing, I have removed all check valves and bubble counter. I have tried to apply some foam to check where is it leaking, cant see any bubbles anywhere, but I can hear the hissing noise.


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## tim (10 Oct 2013)

Is your atomiser connected to filter hose with jubilee clips or the atomiser plastic nuts, I once had a leak from the filter pipe not enough to let water out but the gas escaped replaced plastic nuts with jubilee/hose clips all good mist everywhere.


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## foxfish (10 Oct 2013)

You could disconnect the device but leave the Co2 line in place & sink it in a jug or the tank to se if you have enough working pressure.
The Atomiser will fizz furiously if you have good pressure, 2.5 bar is normally ok.


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## virgojavier (10 Oct 2013)

I've got the plastic nuts, will get the jubilee clips in the morning. Thanks for advise, maybe that will help.


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## virgojavier (10 Oct 2013)

The problem is that I cant tell if iv got 2.5 bar or 3. I've got in l/min.. Not sure if there is a way of convert it to bars?


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## foxfish (10 Oct 2013)

Well you will know if you follow my suggestion! ....UP will fizz when new around 1.8bar but require around 2.5 to really get going & quite a bit more once a bit blocked up.
 9 time out of 10 the problem is pressure related or a non adjustable pressure valve.


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## tim (10 Oct 2013)

Possibly not l/min is a measurement of flow bar/psi pressure don't know if measurements like this are interchangeable, personally I would turn the working pressure up to see if I could get a mist in the tank, BUT I would only do this if my children weren't around, I managed to blow a glass bubble counter once with an atomiser that was blocked, made me nervous about using them again for a while. At the end of the day we use these items at our own risk, so I wish you luck with it mate.


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## sa80mark (10 Oct 2013)

No you cant convert then bar is the measure of pressure and l/min is flow rate


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## sa80mark (10 Oct 2013)

Sent the same time as tim lol


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## nanocube (10 Oct 2013)

Its very simple...Just take a washing-up liquid and small brush and smear all connections your pipe work of co2...If you see bubbles you have got a leak...If you havent got a leak thats mean the gas is fully dissolved in water so there is no mist in the tank


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## Pinkmummy79 (10 Oct 2013)

Dave Pierce said:


> I have that in-line atomiser. Works great for me.


 
Dave, did you clean your's from new or just go with the flow!

I've just received one this week as I couldn't get hold of another UP inline anywhere, looking at it though i looks identical apart from the stickers, even the seam on the plastic cover is the same as my existing UP version.
I've not yet fitted it so think i'll give it a soak overnight to be safe


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## virgojavier (10 Oct 2013)

Bleach for soaking overnigh? What about dechlorinator? What do you use?


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## Dave Pierce (11 Oct 2013)

I didn't do any cleaning or soaking. Plug in & go


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## Pinkmummy79 (11 Oct 2013)

virgojavier said:


> Bleach for soaking overnigh? What about dechlorinator? What do you use?


 I use Prime


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## virgojavier (11 Oct 2013)

Sorted boys. Had to put an extreme dose of pressure to let it through for the first time, also I have changed the plastic clips for proper jubilee clips.
Getting beautiful fine bubbles everywhere now.

Now then, should I fire up the second bulb?


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## tim (11 Oct 2013)

Glad you got it sorted mate, as for the second bulb patience is a virtue you know


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## foxfish (11 Oct 2013)

I bet you open all your presents on Christmas eve


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## tim (11 Oct 2013)

^


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## Dave Pierce (11 Oct 2013)

I wouldn't fire up the 2nd bulb, it will just make it harder to grow healthy plants.


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (11 Oct 2013)

foxfish said:


> I bet you open all your presents on Christmas eve




Wait...
When are you meant to open them then?!


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## virgojavier (11 Oct 2013)

foxfish said:


> I bet you open all your presents on Christmas eve


 Yup thats me
Anyway...
Day 24:




Inline atomizer sorted, consideried replacing the green outlet pipe with glass one. I am quite happy with my spraybar at the moment so the idea of replacing it with lilly pipe is being postponed.
Plants are defo showing nice grow. Bought some new plants which were planted at the back of the tank:
- Alternathera Rosanervig (behind the stones atm)
- Bacopa Caroliniana (left corner)
- Hygrophila corymbosa (right corner)

Had a little flood last night when removed the check valve from CO2 line, started leaking from the solenoid, joy.

Lukasz


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## Pinkmummy79 (12 Oct 2013)

virgojavier said:


> Sorted boys. Had to put an extreme dose of pressure to let it through for the first time, also I have changed the plastic clips for proper jubilee clips.
> Getting beautiful fine bubbles everywhere now.
> 
> Now then, should I fire up the second bulb?


Fitted mine last night after a pre use clean, I had a good burst of bubbles on testing so ran it for a few minutes before lowering the bubble count and setting the timer for today.
I now have not much happening as yourself:-/ checked for leaks and all fine, pressure from JBL reg is 3 bar and bubble count is approx 5 per second, will try the jubilee clips but it's odd that it seemed fine last night.

Sent from my LT30p using Tapatalk


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## virgojavier (20 Oct 2013)

Hello
Day 30:



Turned back 2nd bulb 5 days ago, since then brown algeas have dissapeared completly. No sign of algea at all.
The brown dust which was present on the front glass is not there anymore, I think this is proving that excel is doing the job.
As you can see there are some fishes in:
- 30 neons tetra
- 4 ottos
- 2 amano shrimps
- 4 red cherry shrimps
I am planning to introduce some Panda Corrydoras as well, but time will tell.

Regards
Lukasz

PS: I have made a small donation. Thank You for all the help gained here! Thank You Clive in helping me starting this tank


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## foxfish (20 Oct 2013)

Sounds promising....


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## Dave Pierce (20 Oct 2013)

Looking much better Lukasz, plants are starting to take hold


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## virgojavier (3 Nov 2013)

Evening
Some quick update on things, getting some nice grow. Appologise for that dirty spray bar, it will be replaced with a glass unit next week.
Photo taken just before 50% weekly water change.



Regards


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## aliclarke86 (3 Nov 2013)

Looking really good! The colours are fantastic, well done

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## foxfish (3 Nov 2013)

Fantastic, looking great, well done.


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## virgojavier (11 Nov 2013)

Hello again!
Day 54:




Some closer shots, forgive me but I am not a photo artists









Regards
Lukasz


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## virgojavier (18 Nov 2013)

Day 60:



Don't know why but everything seems to be growing nice, everything besides Eleocharis sp mini…. why?


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## aliclarke86 (18 Nov 2013)

Well this has really taken off!! Top job my friend!

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## darren636 (18 Nov 2013)

virgojavier said:


> Day 60:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know why but everything seems to be growing nice, everything besides Eleocharis sp mini…. why?


move the drop checker to near the eleocharis, to see if co2 is reaching the substrate


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (18 Nov 2013)

Eleocharis sp. 'Mini' seems to require some settling in time in new aquascapes.
Make sure your doing everything right and wait for it to start spreading well, when she goes, She Goes! 

Cheers,
N


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## virgojavier (23 Nov 2013)

Day 65


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## parotet (23 Nov 2013)

Great thread. Spent 1.5 hours reading it but learnt a lot! Congratulations to all... 
The tank looks also great


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## virgojavier (7 Dec 2013)

Day 80



Been away for 2 weeks and my wife was takin care about the tank, lost 10 Tetra Neons… due to overdose of Excel Shrimps also gone
But plants never been better. Will have to apply some trimming plus get some new shrimps and neons
Regards
Lukasz


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## aliclarke86 (7 Dec 2013)

WHOH! that is turning into a jungle!!! Any chance of some closer shots of plants?

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## virgojavier (24 Jan 2014)

Have been busy over the last few months, not many changes in my tank, just a trimm here and there.
Things looks ok, this is my recipe for this tank:
- lightning period from 14:30 to 22:00
- CO2 kicks in 1hr before lights and switch off 1hr before lights will go off
- 2ml of Excel daily, 10ml every week after 30% water change
- Tropica Premium 10ml once a week after water change
- every 2 days 20ml of my own macro coctail

Plants looks very healthy, but pearling only after water change day. Is it becuase of Tropica Premium? Small algea on rocks, trying to brush them out, but very time consuming.


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## aliclarke86 (24 Jan 2014)

Wow looks like a jungle! I would say that the pearling is down to a high O2 level in the water your putting into the tank......maybe ha not sure

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## virgojavier (19 May 2014)

Well its been 243 days since this tank was started…
Few ups and downs, algea here and there, but still running. I am thinking about big rescape, but time will tell.


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## aliclarke86 (21 May 2014)

This has really become a beautiful tank mate. Congrats

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## flygja (22 May 2014)

Very lush!


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