# Advice for newbie



## KAB28 (22 Mar 2020)

Hello all. I need your experience & advice as my head is exploding trying to figure out if my new (first ever) tropical freshwater aquarium has adequate lighting for my requirements.

I have purchased a Fluval Flex 123 litre aquarium

32.5 x 15.35 x 15.75"
(82 x 39 x 40 cm)

The provided lighting is a 21W 1450 lumen Aquasky LED light. I am completely lost in trying to calculate if this is sufficient lighting for plants that are deemed "Medium" difficulty to grow?

My shortlist of plants I wish to put in the aquarium are:

Red Myriophyllun
Hydrocotyle tripartita
Rotala 'Bonsai'
Eleocharis acicularis 'Mini'

Essentially I want to know if this setup provides sufficient lighting for these plants to grow? There is room for a second LED strip if needed. I have seen some online lighting calculators but the terms LUX LSI etc go over my head & they seem to be focused on  non-LES Watt ratings. 

thanks.


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## kilnakorr (22 Mar 2020)

In my opinion, yes, it's should grow your chosen plants without issues.
It's hard to say, as I can't really find much info on the unit.
You could try to get some PAR measurement by contacting the company.


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## Witcher (22 Mar 2020)

I think you need at least 60W light for that height of the tank to have Myriophyllum and Rotalas (most of them, not only red or indica) growing ok, not sure about H. tripartita and Eleocharis.


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## KAB28 (23 Mar 2020)

Thank you. On reflection I hae re-considered my choices & chosen some more 'hardy' plant choices. Don't want to run before I can walk.


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## Simon Cole (23 Mar 2020)

I can't say for certain but I have the smaller model:

I've got the 34 litre flex which comes in at 1900 lumens. It is totally unsuitable for my own aquascaping hobby because there is not enough light. Cryptocorynes grow but remain small. Micranthemum monte carlo forms a very weak and small-leaved spread. Rotalas including bonsai will grow very weak stems and these are hardly worth replanting. Heteranthera zosterifolia will straggle and just about cling on. Limnophila sessiliflora straggles up and does okay. Fissidens fontanus moss does okay.  Light distribution is very poor and there is a hot spot formed by the curved glass, so planting at the back of that tank is not worth the bother. Most aquascapers corporately promoting these tanks rely upon heavy planting. The internal filter looks like a huge abstract piece of black plastic, which was the first thing we removed. Generally you don't need to worry very much about algae (even this seems to struggle). The glass also tends to be very thin.

The problem with these tanks is that the LED's do not have a bidirectional current converter, so effectively you only get half the lumens over time. They still appear as bright as a proper LED light to our eyes, and most people reviewing these tanks know nothing about electronics, or simply want to believe that an adapter is the same thing (or that so and so had this tank and posted a video etc). It doesn't matter. Likewise, I can tell you what the PAR should be and many people will measure this, but nobody bothers to check for LED flicker, meaning that even if you get a PAR metre and a reading (or have one supplied), that this will be meaningless too.

Personally I wouldn't even bother setting it up. I'd just sell it on.


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## jaypeecee (23 Mar 2020)

Simon Cole said:


> The problem with these tanks is that the LED's do not have a bidirectional current converter, so effectively you only get half the lumens over time. They still appear as bright as a proper LED light to our eyes, and most people reviewing these tanks know nothing about electronics, or simply want to believe that an adapter is the same thing (or that so and so had this tank and posted a video etc). It doesn't matter. Likewise, I can tell you what the PAR should be and many people will measure this, but nobody bothers to check for LED flicker, meaning that even if you get a PAR metre and a reading (or have one supplied), that this will be meaningless too.



Hi @Simon Cole 

My background is in electronics and I'm very interested in aquarium lighting. What you are saying is of interest to me. Perhaps you could expand on the last sentence above. Feel free to get as technical as you deem appropriate. And, if you think it may be better to do so, we can discuss this via PM. It's your call.

JPC


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## KAB28 (23 Mar 2020)

Simon Cole said:


> I can't say for certain but I have the smaller model:
> 
> I've got the 34 litre flex which comes in at 1900 lumens. It is totally unsuitable for my own aquascaping hobby because there is not enough light. Cryptocorynes grow but remain small. Micranthemum monte carlo forms a very weak and small-leaved spread. Rotalas including bonsai will grow very weak stems and these are hardly worth replanting. Heteranthera zosterifolia will straggle and just about cling on. Limnophila sessiliflora straggles up and does okay. Fissidens fontanus moss does okay.  Light distribution is very poor and there is a hot spot formed by the curved glass, so planting at the back of that tank is not worth the bother. Most aquascapers corporately promoting these tanks rely upon heavy planting. The internal filter looks like a huge abstract piece of black plastic, which was the first thing we removed. Generally you don't need to worry very much about algae (even this seems to struggle). The glass also tends to be very thin.
> 
> ...


Not what I wanted to hear obviously! The tank is unpacked & is being set up step by step, so I shall have to try my best and see what results.


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## Wookii (23 Mar 2020)

KAB28 said:


> Not what I wanted to hear obviously! The tank is unpacked & is being set up step by step, so I shall have to try my best and see what results.



I have a 60 litre (60 x 30 x 35) tank and use the Fluval Plant 3.0 which is 32W, and to be honest it isn't really enough for my tank. Growth is fairly slow at the substrate level, and the spread of the light across the tank isn't great. I suspect you will struggle with the Aquasky that is only 21 watt, in a tank that is larger and deeper than mine.

If you are set on using the tank as is - I would look to see if  you can swap the light out for a better unit, and utilise the second empty slot you mention. Failing that stick to plants with very low lighting requirements.


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## Simon Cole (23 Mar 2020)

@jaypeecee  Alternating currents have sine waves, and on my model they are 60 Hz (60 cycles per second). LEDs require a minimum current, and when modulation occurs they turn on and off at the same rate as the frequency. This is called LED flicker. Typically this flicker has a 50% duty cycle. Which means that the LED is only on for 50% of the time. Dimmer modules are sometimes included by the manufacturer so that the frequency can be increased and the pulse width broadened. This has the effect of increasing the duty cycle, but it is rare to get beyond about 75% even at frequencies over 10 kHz (to speculate, this probably works because LEDs have a reaction time of about 300 ms and the peaks get closer together). The best solution has always been to provide direct current so that there is no modulation. Thus constant current drivers are preferred. The physical size of these components would be noticeable if they were included. Do you know what I mean. I can see what looks like a sealed dimmer module between the adapter and the light bar which is what is controlling the remote control lighting levels, colors and effects [through pulse width modulation]. This is better than nothing, but I could not honestly say that the lumen output assumed for each LED, will be achieved.

The problem with Par meters is that they cannot interpret LED flicker - they were designed for sunlight which has no modulation. The best option to check this would be an oscilloscope. I actually think that some of the other higher intensity LED units are ideal. They probably only include dimmer modules, but a 25% drop in efficiency has no real impact upon performance and this is factored into design. I would feel a lot more happy if Fluval could explain how they control their LEDs but somehow this is not mentioned in the specifications. I wonder why?

@KAB28  It's a nice tank. What annoyed me was the advertising:  the box shows Alternanthera reineckii mini and Eleocharis mini (or something similar) growing away. You can tell that this has been photoshopped because the distinctive light hot spot is gone. There is no way this is achievable. Pektec on YouTube has one with two bars - and he would be the person to direct your questions towards. Nice chap and very helpful. You're going to have a lot of fun and then the opportunity to upgrade if you choose. The tank is actually quite cool. It just baffles me how low the lighting intensity is.


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## jaypeecee (23 Mar 2020)

Simon Cole said:


> The problem with Par meters is that they cannot interpret LED flicker - they were designed for sunlight which has no modulation. The best option to check this would be an oscilloscope. I actually think that some of the other higher intensity LED units are ideal. They probably only include dimmer modules, but a 25% drop in efficiency has no real impact upon performance and this is factored into design. I would feel a lot more happy if Fluval could explain how they control their LEDs but somehow this is not mentioned in the specifications. I wonder why?



Hi @Simon Cole 

Let's deal with PAR meters first. Control of LEDs is for another day.

I don't see a problem with PAR sensors/meters handling pulsed light from LEDs. A common interface circuit to a photodiode (inside the PAR sensor) is a transimpedance amplifier. By using the appropriate capacitor value across its output, it can be tuned to smooth the pulsed output voltage. That should handle the 'flicker' perfectly well. The likes of Apogee know full well that their PAR sensors/meters are used with LED lighting. I don't think you need to be concerned.

I'm not surprised that Fluval don't provide the information that you mention above. Firstly, it is proprietary information. Secondly, there is a possibility that they don't know! I'm not sure just how much design work Fluval or R C Hagen (the parent company) actually do themselves. We cannot rule out the possibility that the design of their lighting products is sub-contracted to A N Other company.

JPC


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## KAB28 (23 Mar 2020)

Wookii said:


> I have a 60 litre (60 x 30 x 35) tank and use the Fluval Plant 3.0 which is 32W, and to be honest it isn't really enough for my tank. Growth is fairly slow at the substrate level, and the spread of the light across the tank isn't great. I suspect you will struggle with the Aquasky that is only 21 watt, in a tank that is larger and deeper than mine.
> 
> If you are set on using the tank as is - I would look to see if  you can swap the light out for a better unit, and utilise the second empty slot you mention. Failing that stick to plants with very low lighting requirements.


I am going to add a second light. They do make an Aquasky 33W 2260 lm version. They also do some plant specific lights, so I shall look in to that.


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## Simon Cole (24 Mar 2020)

@jaypeecee  You are right. It would need to give flicker measurement quantities, and/or compute the light intensity accordingly. It would be interesting to get a reading and see if this is a major factor.


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## KAB28 (24 Mar 2020)

I contacted Fluval about placing a second light in the Flex 123.They replied:

"Hi! The extra light for the Flex 123 is the following: https://fluvalaquatics.com/uk/product/aquasky-bluetooth-led-for-flex-aquarium-kit-32-5-us-gal-123-l/ With those two lights, you'll be able to grow just about any live plants!".

We shall see


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (2 Apr 2020)

To give you some confidence, this is what one aquasky can do it you choose low light plants..


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## KAB28 (2 Apr 2020)

Thanks Matt. My plants have arrived, so today is the day I add substrate, plants & water. Happy days!

I shall then be doing a fishless cycle using Dr Tim's ammonia.


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen (2 Apr 2020)

The Tropica web site suggests the following ranges for lumens per litre:

10-20 lumens per litre - low light, easy plants
20-40 lumens per litre - medium light, medium plants
40+ lumens per litre - high light, difficult plants

Lumens are not the ideal measure for plants, but it’s usually the only measure you get with your lights, and equipment to measure PAR is expensive. A “lumens per litre” number assumes that your tank is a typical shape - for a deep tank you’d need more.

So the tank you have with its standard light is giving you about 11 lumens per litre. That puts you firmly in “low light” territory. Doubling that up with the light they’ve suggested will put you near the bottom of the “medium” range. Most plants will be okay, but some will probably not - especially at the bottom of the tank. I doubt you’ll be growing a carpet of HC “Cuba” or Glossostigma, for example.


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## KAB28 (2 Apr 2020)

Thanks Mike. My x2 Fluval Aquasky lights I have now fitted should give me 23 lum/l. I have purchased some allegedly low-light requiring plants:

*Ludwigia Palustris* 
*Ludwigia repens 'Rubin'* 
*Hygrophila Siamensis 53B ( 1-2-Grow )* 
*Bacopa Caroliniana ( 1-2-Grow )* 
*Sagittaria Subulata ( 1-2-Grow )* 
*Taxiphyllum 'Flame' ( 1-2-Grow )* 
*Taxiphyllum Barbieri ( 1-2-Grow )* 
*Marsilea Crenata ( 1-2-Grow )
*
Fingers crossed.


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## jaypeecee (2 Apr 2020)

KAB28 said:


> Thanks Matt. My plants have arrived, so today is the day I add substrate, plants & water. Happy days!
> 
> I shall then be doing a fishless cycle using Dr Tim's ammonia.



Hi @KAB28 

Please be aware that doing a fishless cycle using ammonia at the same time as having plants in your tank can possibly lead to some complications. This is because both the plants and nitrifying bacteria will use the ammonia. To date, I have always completed a fishless cycle before adding plants. But you may not need to use bottled ammonia at all if you rely on the plants to consume this waste product from your fish. @dw1305 is an advocate of avoiding ammonia addition. Try to collect some more information before deciding how best to proceed.

JPC


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## dw1305 (2 Apr 2020)

Hi all,





jaypeecee said:


> @dw1305 is an advocate of avoiding ammonia addition


I am, in fact I was just typing this when your message notification popped up.





KAB28 said:


> I shall then be doing a fishless cycle using Dr Tim's ammonia.


*Don't add any ammonia to the tank*, it doesn't help "cycle" the tank and it probably increases the time before the tank becomes stable.

Planted tanks are never cycled in the way that tanks which are entirely reliant on microbial nitrification are, but that doesn't matter, plant/microbe nitrification is a lot more effective than microbe only biological filtration.

Have a look at <"Bedside Aquarium"> and <"Dr Tim Hovanec's comments"> (he is the "Dr Tim" of "Dr Tim's").

cheers Darrel


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## KAB28 (2 Apr 2020)

@JPC
@dw1305 

Thank you both! I shall read through that. I have only got so far as placing the ADA Power Sand Advance & Amazonia Regular in to the tank so far.


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## dw1305 (2 Apr 2020)

Hi all,





KAB28 said:


> Thank you both! I shall read through that


 Cycling is a really contentious issue, where people tend to have embedded "faith" positions. I started advocating "silent cycle", cycling by planting a tank and then ensuring that oxygen levels remained high, before there was any real scientific evidence for why it should work. Subsequently there have been a huge number of scientific advances, but most forums and web-sites have ignored them. 





KAB28 said:


> I have only got so far as placing the ADA Power Sand Advance & Amazonia Regular in to the tank so far.


I think the ADA Amazonia is quite ammonia rich. Have a look at <"Volcano Mineral.....">.

A dry start might be the best option, but you will need some-one else to advise you. 

cheers Darrel


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## KAB28 (2 Apr 2020)

So let me get this right, as much conflicts with what I have read & digested so far. Once I have planted the flora, filled the tank with water, turned on the heater & pump, turned on the lights (6-8 hours a day maximum) I leave the plants to work their magic & wait? No ammonia, no de-chlorinator?

Should I be doing API Master Test Kit checks? 
Should I be doing water changes?

After 4-6 weeks the tank should, all being well, safe for the first fish?

If this is correct, I will be delighted as it seems so much more straightforward.

I do not have any filter material to kickstart bacterial growth but do have some API 'Quick Start'. Should I use this or is it also superfluous to my needs?

There is quite a lot more for me to get my head around but thanks for you adice, it is much appreciated as I do not know anyone who keep aquariums (or is it aquaria?).


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (2 Apr 2020)

You need to get to a point where plant growth is good and there is no ammonia in the water column (aquasoil will release ammonia for a few days to a few weeks). When both these are in check then you can start to add livestock.

mid day crack on with the API Quick Start if it would otherwise be going to waste, it certainly won’t hurt it


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## dw1305 (2 Apr 2020)

Hi all, 





KAB28 said:


> Once I have planted the flora, filled the tank with water, turned on the heater & pump, turned on the lights (6-8 hours a day maximum) I leave the plants to work their magic & wait?


Yes, that is it, there maybe <"some issues with water testing">. It doesn't sound as scientific as testing the water every day etc., but there are advantages to it. 





KAB28 said:


> Should I be doing water changes?


Yes, keep up the water changes. 





KAB28 said:


> No ammonia, no de-chlorinator?


Yes, no ammonia. Nitrification is usually limited by oxygen availability, if you <"get enough oxygen into the water"> you can deal with really large bioloads. You don't need  dechlorinator why you haven't got any livestock, but as soon as you add some fish you will. 





KAB28 said:


> Should I be doing water changes?


Yes, keep up the water changes.

In terms of your plants they look good. I like a <"floating plant"> as well, partially because it has access to 400ppm of atmospheric CO2 and has first dibs on the light. This means that any growth issues are related to nutrient levels.

cheers Darrel


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## KAB28 (2 Apr 2020)

Well it’s been a fun day but this is it so far. A little cloudy but got 90% of the plants to stay in the substrate.


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## KAB28 (20 Apr 2020)

Well in to Week 3 now. The plants seem to be growing steadily. The water chemistry is fairly static. I have soft water (7dHh from the tap, 4dh in the tank) & low alkalininty with KH 0-1 dh, I decided to add some more plants and hae some Limnophyla heterophylla & Elodea densa (Anacharis) coming. from Aqua Essentials. Will the low KH stall the cycling process?


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## dw1305 (20 Apr 2020)

Hi all,
Plant growth looks good, and I can see your floating plant.





KAB28 said:


> Will the low KH stall the cycling process?


No.
Are you adding ammonia? (I can see the 2ppm reading in the image) or is that just what is leaching from the substrate?

cheers Darrel


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## KAB28 (20 Apr 2020)

No, no ammonia as you advised. I was assuming it was leaching from the ADA Amazonia? 

Nofloating plants, the one on the right is just shooting up rapidly. It’s Ludwigia. Maybe I should top it and replant the cutting?


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## dw1305 (20 Apr 2020)

Hi all, 





KAB28 said:


> I was assuming it was leaching from the ADA Amazonia?


It will be. You'll have to just carry on with the water changes until it declines.

All the time the substance is "active" it will keep lowering the dKH and pH, it isn't a problem because we now know that the organisms involved in nitrification in aquarium filters <"are mainly archaea and comammox _Nitrospira">, _and these don't have the same requirements for high pH and carbonate hardness that the bacteria (that we thought were responsible for nitrification, and which were isolated from sewage treatment etc) do.

There is further discussion in the <"Tanks without fish"> thread.





KAB28 said:


> Nofloating plants, the one on the right is just shooting up rapidly. It’s Ludwigia.


I can see now, it is just the reflection of the _Ludwigia _at the surface.





KAB28 said:


> Maybe I should top it and replant the cutting?


You can do.

cheers Darrel


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## KAB28 (25 Apr 2020)

This is the start of Week 4. I have put some more plants in and the tank looks full of (plant) life. They are all growing and thriving. I have even had to trim a couple. 

I am doing a PWC of 30% every 3 days. PH is stable at 7.2 lately. These are my API readings.  I have still had now spikes of nitrite or nitrate, maybe the plants are utilising them? 

Do I continue to wait until ammonia drops further? Will they ever drop to <0.25 either the Amazonia substrate? Is now the time to add a few fish? Free ammonia levels have been in the “safe” zone for a few days. I have not added any ammonia. I do add Seachem Alkaline Buffer as my tap KH is 2. This has brought tank KH to 5. I also add Neuro T and Neutro CO2.


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## jaypeecee (25 Apr 2020)

KAB28 said:


> I have soft water (7dHh from the tap, 4dh in the tank) & low alkalininty with KH 0-1 dh.......Will the low KH stall the cycling process?



Hi @KAB28 

I would be uncomfortable with KH that low for two reasons:

1 Nitrifying bacteria need a source of carbon in order to reproduce. The carbonate/bicarbonate of KH is where this carbon is likely to come from. So, KH will drop. And then, following on from this.....

2 The risk of a pH crash, which may be a problem for the nitrifying bacteria

Have you measured your tank water pH? If so, what was the figure?

JPC


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## KAB28 (25 Apr 2020)

Thanks. Yes, I have monitored pH daily, see below. The KH has risen since starting the alkaline buffer , but I would prefer the pH a little lower. Though stability would be priority. From what I read an acid buffer in addition to the alkaline buffer will give me a higher KH and keep the pH lower. The GH is also dropping so I assume some calcium is needed also.


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## KAB28 (25 Apr 2020)




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