# Phosphates



## Doozer999 (17 Dec 2016)

Hi all...

I had my water tested at the LFS and everything was ok, parameters wise; except the phosphates reading was "off the chart"...

Well...i 'say' the parameters were/are all ok... The tank looks healthy, fish are healthy...

Rio 125, internal and external filters.  UK UP Aqua gravel/substrate. RO/tap water mixed to 250 tds.  Ph approx 7.2
Kh 5
Gh 4
NH4  just greater than zero
NO2. Ditto
NO3.  5
Phosphate greater than their scale, "beyond 1.8".

Pressurised CO2 at 2bps

EI dosing

T5 lamps and reflectors on for 9 hrs.  CO2 on 1.5 hrs before lights on and then CO2 off about the same before lights off.

10% wc per week.

Plants are low maintenance java fern, Anubis, some crypts.  All generally ok and growing strong (some browning flecks on java leaves, but trimmed off and ok).

Livestock are cardinal tetras, moonlight gouramis, khuli loaches.  Some shrimp and snails.

So...the question is....  Do i need to be concerned about the phosphates?  My limited knowledge is that i may have an algae issue - but i don't.  Very little in fact!!

Should i up the CO2 or lightning to boost growth even more to then use up phosphate? Or simply not worry as all looks lush? And fish ok?

I have been doubling up the phosphates in the ei mix, as i was advised this would have helped some leaf browning i had a few months ago. Should i just drop it back to correct dosage perhaps?

Any thoughts?  Many thanks.
	

	
	
		
		



		
			





https://imageshack.us/i/plXh4m02j


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen (17 Dec 2016)

With EI dosing, you're meant to be changing 50% a week, not just 10%. That, together with the fact that you're doubling the phosphates, could be the source of your issue. Mind you, your lack of algae and healthy fish indicate that you don't have a major issue!

I'd drop back to the standard EI dosing without doubling the phosphate, and increase your weekly changes to 50%. Water changes are never a bad thing.

If you want to change only one thing at a time, I'd switch to 50% changes first and see how that goes, then consider reducing to standard EI dosing.

I wouldn't change anything more than that though - you're not exactly getting things badly wrong judging from your picture.


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## Doozer999 (17 Dec 2016)

Thanks Dr Mike!
I'll switch to a 50% wc and see if there's any ill effects...
Cheers!


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## three-fingers (17 Dec 2016)

Nope!

High phosphate is GOOD in a planted tank, that's why you are adding it via EI .  You don't want low levels, this can lead to plant deficiencies.

It is old-fashioned thinking that phosphates cause algae in planted tanks. Nowadays we dose fertiliser with high levels of phosphate using the EI method in order to promote healthy plant growth and thus avoid excessive algae (healthy plants actively combat algae).

The fact that you have measurable NH4 is not good, but to be honest I would doubt the test results. Aquarium tests aren't very accurate, are often expired unless you check the lot number and the results are open to interpretation (hard to judge if on a colour scale, depends on lighting).  Bigger/more frequent water changes are never a bad idea if you have the time though .

Nobody can tell if you should up he CO2, you will nee a drop checker to measure this.  If you are using EI, you should aim for 30ppm. See the article below for more information:

https://www.ukaps.org/index.php?page=co2-measurement-using-a-drop-checker


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## Doozer999 (17 Dec 2016)

Thanks for this 3-fingers...all very good info.

I do have a drop checker; apologies, should have mentioned it!  It errs on the slightly blue side of green.

More generally, i think i may consider switching to pure tap water - depending what it's parameters are!?

Please can anyone remind me, what  parameters i should be aiming for, for a fairly basic jungle like tank (i guess i really mean messy looking)?

TDS
PH
Gh
Kh

I can then see if my tap water will work out...

And, based on that how my livestock may fare.

Although everything is generally healthy, from a livestock pov... Whilst i have some communal garden guppies...(as well as what i said earlier), and they do breed... The numbers aren't increasing, so it feels like something isn't quite right for those... Plus, rabbit snails didn't seem to get on well in the tank either - a good few months, then no more...

I appreciate that there may be a conflict between a planted tank and my specific livestock.  I guess what I'm really after is a lush looking tank... And some decent livestock too.  But, not have to force the plants to fit with the fish, or vice-versa.

I would rather get the plants right, then fish that suit that water, whatever it may be!

So, again, thanks for any advice!


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## three-fingers (17 Dec 2016)

Doozer999 said:


> Thanks for this 3-fingers...all very good info.
> 
> I do have a drop checker; apologies, should have mentioned it!  It errs on the slightly blue side of green.


If you have algae or plant deficiency issues that you wish to correct, or desire faster growth then you could turn your CO2 up slightly.
Otherwsie, if you have no issues, I would personally just leave it at it's current level.



> Please can anyone remind me, what  parameters i should be aiming for, for a fairly basic jungle like tank (i guess i really mean messy looking)?


TDS - Doesn't matter for most plants, some don't like it very high but the vast majority are adaptable.
PH - You have plants and are adding CO2,  just ignore pH, it will swing around all the time depending on the time of the day,
Gh - As with TDS, doesn't really matter for plants, but your guppies do prefer this be higher. If this is very low, you may need to add extra potassium/calcium/magnesium for certain species plants.
Kh - Again, doesn't really matter for plants, and can vary based on other factors.

Do you have guppies with CRS?  If so, CRS prefer soft water (not_ too _soft, they are awkward) and guppies (especially weak fancy varieties) prefer hard water. Your currently levels seem fine (apart from NH4, but if the tank looks healthy, the tests are probably very inaccurate).


> I appreciate that there may be a conflict between a planted tank and my specific livestock.  I guess what I'm really after is a lush looking tank... And some decent livestock too.  But, not have to force the plants to fit with the fish, or vice-versa.
> 
> I would rather get the plants right, then fish that suit that water, whatever it may be!
> !


What is your tap water like? Check with your water provider for actual accurate statistics, there may be information online, if not just send them an email (as mentioned, many aquarium tests can be inaccurate). Regardless, I'm sure it will be fine for plants and most fish, especially guppies. A lot of people seem to have water to hard for breeding CRS though.

Getting the plants right then selecting the most suited fish is the best way to a successful aquarium IMO, I do the same (most of the time anyway lol).


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## Doozer999 (18 Dec 2016)

Thanks for all this great feedback!

If i'm going to up my wc % and also switch to just tap water, should i perhaps up the % over the next few weeks?

My tap water seems very hard 17gh and 11 kh...

So, in order for me to understand... From the advice, for a planted tank these high Gh and Kh figures are ok...?

BUT, forums suggest that they (especially GH) is too high for common community fish?

Or, at least my gouramis won't mind. My guppies will love it.  My cardinals will be disappointed.  Is that about right?

I just want to do what's is right, or best.  I am happy to change the livestock if necessary, as i want happy fish, not stressed ones!

Also, if i were to switch to a 50% wc, as that's what the ei requires, what is it that the large wc is doing and necessary for the ei?  I started after last Sunday's wc at tds about 270.  It's about 300 today - before the weekly wc.  I assume it's the ei pushing the tds up?

Perhaps, as all seems ok I'm worrying needlessly and will end up meddling when it ain't broke!!


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## PARAGUAY (19 Dec 2016)

The large water change is necessary to take out "waste"made by plants due to fast growth,using EI and CO2 with other things like lighting and filtration in balance will result in plants ,even slow growers,thriving and as a result it's necessary to do bigger and more regular w/c s than a low tech. A low tech would need frequent w/c but more like 20% weekly depending on fish stocking levels


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## ian_m (19 Dec 2016)

Doozer999 said:


> Also, if i were to switch to a 50% wc, as that's what the ei requires, what is it that the large wc is doing and necessary for the ei?


As explained above the 50% weekly water change when using EI in high light and high CO2 setup is NOT optional.

50% water change serves two main purposes:

1. To remove excessive organic plant waste. As the plants are growing so fast they produce large amounts of organic waste, which if left to build up will encourage algae growth. If I leave my high tech tank much more than a week between water changes algae very soon starts appearing as odd bits of BBA on leaves and sometimes odd green spots on the glass. Regular water changes stops this. Note that water change is not just replacing 50% water, is also vacuuming up the plant detritus that collects in high tech tank. Many people fall for just replacing 50% water and wonder why they get algae appearing.

2. Resetting the fertiliser levels. Removing 50% water stops the levels of fertiliser accumulating to large levels.


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## Doozer999 (19 Dec 2016)

Ok, that's all great, i understand now!  Thank you all.

I am going to go for a 50/50 RO/tap mix.  This gives me a manageable 50% wc.

The new water mix comes out at 
140 TDS, 
PH 7.2
Gh 8
KH 6

Which all sounds nice and perfectly ordinary for the livestock, and perfectly good for the plants.

I'll see how it all goes.  Thanks again!


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