# Lilly pipes and "swirl" effect



## Shinobi (27 Mar 2017)

Hey Guys - for the last 2 weeks i have been using Cal lily pipes on my 60p hooked up to my JBL 901E. And while they do seem to make a very efficient flow and look absolutely stellar I'm a bit confused to why they only seem to make a "swirl" on the surface for a day or two after water change? I do not clean or touch the filter at all, but somehow it only seems able to maintain this swirl for a day or two - this means that a lot of Co2 bubbles are present on the surface when the effect isn't there - any idea to why this is?

Regards


----------



## Paulo Soares (27 Mar 2017)

Hi there, 

Lily Pipes are tricky.. cause it depends on too much factors. 
I used to have Cal Aqua, Blau, ADA Lily Pipes and for now i have AquaRebel Lilly Pipes and these are the most effective i experienced so far.

https://www.aquasabi.com/aquascaping/filtration/in-outflows/aqua-rebell-glass-inflow-if4-17-mm

First of all, the Aqua Rebel Inflow as 20 suction grooves/entrys for water being sucked into the filter. So the filter doens´t loose any power suction. Compare to ohters where you have no more then 10 suctions. If you don´t loose power suction then the outflow as well will not loose it. 

The Inflow you insert image is also a pretty good one. But still has a major defect. As the below suction grooves are separate from the above the filter looses a bit power. Cause by the time the three above suction grooves are sucking water the other 10 below loose their efecct and you will not have too much water being sucked down there. Still it all depends also on the filter power of course..

Going into your problem: 

I believe It all depends on how much water you have in the tank after those couple of days. The day you do WC you filled with water till a level apropriate for that effect. After a couple of days or more, your water evaporates so the level is not the same and the Lilys loose their effect. 
Make a mark on the glass when you do WC and have that effect and by the time the effect is gone look at the mark on the glass again. You´ll find the water level is minor. 

Still another thing.. i believe you´re trying to do Aeration with the Lily Pipes. I reccomend not to. 
Simple point the Outflow to the difuser and have enough flow down there  The Lily Pipe Inflow will do the rest. 

Don´t mind at all with that aeration stuff .. 
If you´re watching to much bubbles at the top water and/ or water with a kind of oil surface than you can be sure your filter is not aprropriate or not well assembled. Try reduce tubes extension (Water weight in it - Phisics) or insert the originals tubes cause your lilys are reducing power filter. 

And don´t try "Skimmer" cause by that way you´re not solving an issue but only covering it  

Big hug.


----------



## Shinobi (27 Mar 2017)

Paulo Soares said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Lily Pipes are tricky.. cause it depends on too much factors.
> I used to have Cal Aqua, Blau, ADA Lily Pipes and for now i have AquaRebel Lilly Pipes and these are the most effective i experienced so far.
> ...



Its weird because there doesn't seem to be any relation to the swirl effect and the water level - for example; yesterday I added more than i normally would and the swirl was in full effect, keeping the surface moving nice and clean. and today the water level is still above what normally would be in the tank, but the swirl isn't there even though it has been at even lower levels, so its difficult to conclude that this would be the issue(?). I am not trying to achieve aeration by any means, as i would simply lower the water or raise the pipe - the point is to get this small swirl to break the surface and keep film and bubbles away - not physically breaking the surface with the vacuum of the outflow and adding bubbles of air


----------



## jesperl.dk (27 Mar 2017)

when you figure it out, let us know 

I agree with Paulo that the surface oil film is not good. I am not sure the problem always is to little filter flow, actually I am more thinking that you need flow but that filtering does not matter that much. I now run a tiny air pump at night, and after that I never have any oil film. I also keeps the lily low and don't any more care about the swirl. Much easier to keep the CO2 steady that way, and much nicer looking with no film at all. If you read about using an air pump, you will hear that many also think it is good for the fish, but I don't know about that.


----------



## imak (28 Mar 2017)

It may be because of the film build up, that creates more tension in the surface, so that swirl is harder to achieve.  Right after the water change you won't have any film, and 2 days after it may be not really visible but still, it is there.


----------



## Shinobi (28 Mar 2017)

imak said:


> It may be because of the film build up, that creates more tension in the surface, so that swirl is harder to achieve.  Right after the water change you won't have any film, and 2 days after it may be not really visible but still, it is there.


 I'm beginning to lean towards this theory to - even though surface film is only barely visible at any given time


----------



## Paulo Soares (28 Mar 2017)

imak said:


> It may be because of the film build up, that creates more tension in the surface, so that swirl is harder to achieve.  Right after the water change you won't have any film, and 2 days after it may be not really visible but still, it is there.



Wich means low filter capacity or incorrect assembling! That´s why i aproach the filter issue. 

If a couple of days after a WC the swirl or movement effect disapeear this may be a good reason but as i said before it is needed to review the filter.

Next WC take off the Lily PIpes and insert the original ones. Try reduce tubing also so the rotor has a minor work (force) conducting less weight of water.

And then you´ll see if i´m wrong 

Big hug


----------



## Paulo Soares (28 Mar 2017)

By the way.. what do you have inside the filter?

Is the manifold full open?

The tubes do some curves? 
Can you insert a picture of the assembling?


----------



## imak (28 Mar 2017)

Paulo Soares said:


> Wich means low filter capacity or incorrect assembling! That´s why i aproach the filter issue.



Although I think that the filter( don't know about the media inside it) is well fitted to a 60p, what OP asked was about the swirl, so I only mentioned that.  Not saying that you are wrong, just was not what he asked, at least directly.


----------



## Shinobi (28 Mar 2017)

Paulo Soares said:


> By the way.. what do you have inside the filter?
> 
> Is the manifold full open?
> 
> ...



Tubes has been cut to size, no unnecessary curves or curls. It contains the original JBL filter material and I have a Hydor inline installed. Not sure changing the pipes would make much sense since the original ones tends to blast the water directly at the surface - I did however go a couple of days with glass outline and OG inline but the result, concerning the swirl effect was the same.

Not the prettiest part of my home:


----------



## zozo (28 Mar 2017)

The ball type lily pipe has a relative steady swirl by design.. 



Using it for over 2 years now and realy love this pipe.. Tho once in a while i also have surface build up.. I think it has to do with saturation and if the substance or object leaching this film, leaches more than the water can take up than you are only displacing the film. Beter find the source creating it, mostly it's decaying organics and bacteria causing it..  (Dead fish, dead shrimp, dead snail, dead plants)


----------



## Tim Harrison (28 Mar 2017)

Try this https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/surface-film.13603/


----------



## Paulo Soares (29 Mar 2017)

zozo said:


> I think it has to do with saturation



That´s what i´m saying also. Gaz exchange is compromised cause the filter is not enough even to a 60P tank assembled like this one and that´s why the film appears. So you´re having Co2 saturation. 

Too much tube and weight for the rotor impulse to the tank. I know pretty well JBL 901 and i´m shure you´re having flow issues just looking to that tubes.

A 901 gives you about 500 /600 liter hour for real. Anounced by the manufacturer is 900. With that assembled tubes and lily pipes there you have your fillter .. just do the maths.. 

As i said try the original tubes and you´ll see the film going away. 
Also put something under the filter (a wood box for example) to elevate it about 20 to 30 cm cm so you wont´need that much tubing. 

And then you´ll see. 

Best regards.


----------



## Paulo Soares (29 Mar 2017)

And you also have something in between one of the tubes... witch is another thing the rotor has to deal with..At list it seems to me as i look at the picture.


----------



## Daveslaney (29 Mar 2017)

IMHO Its mainly DOCs , proteins in the water column from fish food fish waste etc that your filter wont remove that rise to the surface.Much the same as a protein skimmer removes on a saltwater tank. But due to water density these wont work in fresh water.
surface agitation wont remove these,Just mix them back into the water colomn. When i had a bacci shower on one of my ponds some morning it was like shaving foam on the surface and i could net it off.


----------



## Tim Harrison (29 Mar 2017)

It's probably just caused by the build up of a biofilm as already stated...it happens to the best of us, perhaps more frequently than we'd like to admit.

It's probably due to the build up of organics, for whatever reason.

I get a biofilm as thick as treacle and as wrinkly as Nora Batty's tights for the first few months after setting up a soil substrate tank, which completely reduces surface water movement, but once the soil has mineralised and the plants have taken hold it soon disappears.

One obvious way to counteract it is to reduce organics (less fish food, remove decaying plant matter, dead critters etc) and increase O2 saturation.
Failing that try more frequent water changes and scooping or blotting the film off.
And hey presto...surface water movement or "swirl" restored.


----------



## Shinobi (29 Mar 2017)

Thanks for the replies everyone. So today i came home to a surface at a stand-still.
So i tried raising the pump a bit by putting some books underneath it ( who needs boring law books anyway) and "force" turning the outflow a bit away from the edge at which it was leaning towards


 And whaddayaknow:


  I would agree that this is not a solution to a problem if the film keeps building up and i do have 2 snails in there whom have been suspiciously missing since they where introduced /: Also i did net the surface briefly prior to making the adjustments, so i will have to see if I'm able to keep the swirl in a days time. Unfortunately what might be some cyano is appearing ever so slightly here and there /: any suggestions to this? As Tim mentioned; the tank is no more than 6 weeks old so perhaps the film build up could be contributed to the Amazonia soil or the filter still being a bit pre-mature?


----------



## Shinobi (29 Mar 2017)

Paulo Soares said:


> And you also have something in between one of the tubes... witch is another thing the rotor has to deal with..At list it seems to me as i look at the picture.



You mean the inline heater?


----------

