# Polyether vs Polyester/polyethylene foam filters (minor rant)



## JMorgan (11 Jul 2017)

Having spent many hours of fruitless searching I'm hoping that someone here can point me in the right direction to get hold of some decent quality polyether foam/sponge filters. Possibly in Germany or the Netherlands?

Roughly 18 months ago I quite suddenly needed to expand the number of tanks to cope with growing out a few hundred angelfish fry. At that time I just got hold of what I thought were OK sponge filters - the sort typically sold on amazon and eBay, but which seem pretty universal at my LFS and other online stores. They are not terrible, but nor are they good quality. After less than two years of use with regular servicing, they are already beginning to lose proper elasticity and "bounce" making them increasingly difficult to clean and less effective with every month that passes. 

Ted Judy has a good video describing the difference between polyether and polyester foams for anyone interested:   The relevant bit starts about 5 minutes in.

Since I broadly dislike the idea of "throwaway" products I've been researching this over the last few months and it seems so far to be a fairly cynical policy to sell filters made from polyethylene, not so much because its substantially cheaper, but because it will eventually just stop working and is then impossible to restore, forcing punters to buy again. As Ted describes, polyether can be restored even with quite harsh chemicals and he's had the same filters running for ten years plus no problem.

Having written to UK based companies selling polyether foam (on far too large a scale for the likes of me) it turns out that EMW Filtertechnik GmbH, the German source of polyether foam branded as Poret foam, touted by numerous USA based you-tubers and sold in the USA by Swiss Tropicals, is not in fact manufactured by EMW Filtertechnik, who are just "convertors" of the foam. In plain English that means they get hold of the foam in large sheets and cut it up, branding it as "Poret" and investing it with miraculous powers in the process, when it is in reality just bog standard polyether foam, minus additives that would make it unsuitable for aquarists.

This makes it all the more absurd from the perspective of air miles and carbon footprint to import back to the UK by buying from Swiss Tropicals in the USA a product made in Europe, probably Germany. Even more absurdly the only other source I've found is a bloke in New Zealand - which is beyond ridiculous.

That all said I have spoken (briefly and in passing) to UK hobbyists who've imported decent polyether foam filters from Germany, but those German websites I've found either don't seem to export to the UK or don't offer any information regarding what the filters are made of: polyethylene and polyether look pretty much the same in a typical online store photo! 

So please if you know of a European company website that sells a decent quality polyether sponge filter let me know - I'm looking for both the basic round or rectangular shapes and also sheets of foam to use with HMF set ups - as I also think its pretty silly to be paying for convoluted or profiled foam where one is essentially paying extra for the foam they've cut away, AKA . . .  air! 

That's surely a step beyond paying manufacturers to add water to dry ferts!

cheers


----------



## alto (11 Jul 2017)

Did you try EMW?


----------



## JMorgan (11 Jul 2017)

I wrote to them some time ago - they really only supply manufacturers, I don't remember the amount exactly but their minimum order was around £500.00 which I guess might even make sense if you were building a large fish room or opening a store, but not for half a dozen aquariums


----------



## zozo (11 Jul 2017)

JMorgan said:


> Possibly in Germany or the Netherlands?


http://www.vancranenbroek.nl/
Oddly, it's a cheap discount store selling both quality products but also lot of cheap unbranded crap. They have a large pond hardware section but no fish. Anyway also selling large mats filter sponges 50x50 cm, you have to cut to size yourself. Might want to give that a go. I have no beef with their sponges, their in my sump and i find them ok. But maybe its sumps need less cleaning..

And buying a 50x50 cm mat for i believe around €15.. That's a lot of sponge for me, for years to come.. 1 little eheim sponge in a box fitting the canister cost €4.95 in the lfs and than need 3.


----------



## zozo (11 Jul 2017)

Oh i forgot and for Germany i could advise this. They also sell large mats.
https://www.wasserflora.de/filtertechnik/filtermaterial-w125
They do mainly only webshop, need to make an apointment to visit and pick up orders. Unfortunately the competition forced them to close their LFS.
Liked to go there they were are pretty good and have a huge collection. But also no more fish since all goes exclusively on line now.


----------



## JMorgan (12 Jul 2017)

Hi Marcel - thanks for the wasserflora link. Ive had a quick look and its great that for once someone is saying that the sheets are polyether. I haven't seen some of the air driven filter brands they have elsewhere and I always live in hope that some of those might be polyether too, though I doubt it - I'll have to write to them and ask. 

In the meantime I've found http://www.aquaristikschneider.de who I've written to via Google translate and it looks promising as he will post to the UK and has confirmed the filters are polyether. That said I'm leaning toward getting a 10cm thick sheet and just making as many as I want.
cheers


----------



## Colin111 (1 Oct 2017)

@JMorgan I'm looking at setting up a tank in the near future with a matten filter, did you have any luck with finding polyether foam at a reasonable cost?


----------



## Edvet (1 Oct 2017)

You could try these: https://www.aquariaveldhuis.nl/.
look for : "filterschuim"


----------



## JMorgan (2 Oct 2017)

Colin111 said:


> @JMorgan I'm looking at setting up a tank in the near future with a matten filter, did you have any luck with finding polyether foam at a reasonable cost?


No I haven't as yet had much luck - that said I haven't been trying terribly hard - things like installing bathrooms and boarding out the attic being just a tad higher on Mrs M's priority list than fishy related things. 

It would seem the way forward - when I have time to wade through the various sites - is to go with importing from Germany or the Nederlands as per Edvet's link above. That's how I know other folks have got themselves decent foam filtration in the past. Obviously there's a bit of a language barrier, but I have made contact with a couple of online stores in Germany and they seem quite willing to ship to the UK and deal with the vagaries of Google's translations.

I'll post back here when I get things sorted as I'll be ordering half a dozen air lift type filters and probably a sheet of foam.


----------



## Colin111 (2 Oct 2017)

Thanks for the update. You wouldn't have thought it would be so difficult to find it but you can find threads going back donkey's years trying to find Poret type foam (or even straight up Poret) at a reasonable price in the UK.  Somebody is missing out on an opportunity. One of the site sponsors maybe if someone on here has contact to the necessary person?


----------



## zozo (2 Oct 2017)

VELDA is a Dutch pond equipment wholesaler supplying retailers internationaly.. They have several types of large filtermats in their collection in different PPI and thicknes..

These are the 50x50x 2 cm Velda filter mats





Anyway, VELDA has it, doesn't mean every retailer stocks them obviously demand probably isn't high enough.. But any Velda retailer regularly ordering supplies from them can easily get them i guess, place an order at an UK Velda retailer.

https://www.aquatix-2u.co.uk/brands-velda/


----------



## Colin111 (3 Oct 2017)

I have found a UK based firm that sells Polyether foam in 2m by 1m sheets but it's only 25mm thick (for around £50 but the price goes down the more sheets you buy).

https://www.efoam.co.uk/aquatic-filter-foam.php


----------



## Edvet (3 Oct 2017)

https://www.easyfoam.co.uk/aquatic-filter-foam.php ?


----------



## ian_m (3 Oct 2017)

Colin111 said:


> https://www.efoam.co.uk/aquatic-filter-foam.php





Edvet said:


> https://www.easyfoam.co.uk/aquatic-filter-foam.php ?


These are registered to the same address.
Unit 20
Barton Industrial Park,
Etruria Way,
Bilston,
WV14 7LH

Wonder why two websites selling almost the same ???


----------



## Edvet (3 Oct 2017)

Yeah


----------



## Colin111 (5 Oct 2017)

I've found a UK company that nearly suits at http://www.thefoamshop.co.uk/category/193/RETICULATED--FOAM

The only caveat is they only do 10, 30 & 45ppi foam whereas I was looking for 20ppi. You can input your own sizes (so no paying for waste) and it's fish safe reticulated polyether foam (no flame retardant). I checked with them and a 75mm thick piece is one block as against sticking multiple sheets together. Decent price too at £27.39 for a 64cm x 60cm x 7.5cm sheet. Now I've got to decide whether to go for the 30ppi or not (10ppi is going to be too porous I think)


----------



## JMorgan (12 Oct 2017)

Hi Colin - good find!
Is it possible to stick sheets together? I assume you'd lose a little porosity, but not very much if it was just spot glued . . . we all know super glue is fish safe, but wonder if this actually holds longer term? 
That said 75mm is a pretty good thickness - I've only seen 30mm and occasionally 50mm elsewhere
thanks


----------



## Edvet (12 Oct 2017)

5 cm is plenty for a mattenfilter. I use quite coarse material to make sure the filter can stay untouched for long times (>1 year)


----------



## Colin111 (12 Oct 2017)

JMorgan said:


> Hi Colin - good find!
> Is it possible to stick sheets together? I assume you'd lose a little porosity, but not very much if it was just spot glued . . . we all know super glue is fish safe, but wonder if this actually holds longer term?
> That said 75mm is a pretty good thickness - I've only seen 30mm and occasionally 50mm elsewhere
> thanks


I was thinking aquarium sealant if necessary with a thin bead around the perimeter and a zigzag across the middle. You'd lose minimal surface area.


----------



## Colin111 (12 Oct 2017)

Edvet said:


> 5 cm is plenty for a mattenfilter. I use quite coarse material to make sure the filter can stay untouched for long times (>1 year)


Would 5cm be stiff enough to stay standing when using a piece 60cm by 60cm say?


----------



## Edvet (12 Oct 2017)

Aye


----------



## Edvet (12 Oct 2017)

I have it on the whole side and back of a 50x50x50 tank. and as dividers in 60/50x30x30 tanks, you can also clamp it as a corner
http://www.caudata.org/forum/attach...77999-hamburger-mattenfilter-hmf-img_0005.jpg
http://www.caudata.org/forum/attach...999-hamburger-mattenfilter-hmf-eck_hmf_3d.jpg
https://www.einrichtungsbeispiele.d...ilter--berechnung-nach-o--deters__filter3.jpg


----------



## dw1305 (12 Oct 2017)

Hi all, 





Colin111 said:


> Would 5cm be stiff enough to stay standing when using a piece 60cm by 60cm say?


The 10ppi 7.5cm thick sheet should be fine at 60 x 60cm. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## zozo (12 Oct 2017)

Colin111 said:


> I was thinking aquarium sealant if necessary with a thin bead around the perimeter and a zigzag across the middle. You'd lose minimal surface area.



Think off plastic push in rivets
http://www.essentracomponents.com/en-gb/fasteners/rivets/push-in-rivets/push-in-rivets-fir-tree

You can use a small piece of plastic tube with a rivet at each end.. The tube obviously to create the proper width you need.. A set of 5 and place them as a number 5 on the dice in/on the mat could be sufficient to hold 2 sheats firmly together.. 

Or instead 
http://www.jetpress.com/Products.aspx/dlqqvgdtuk/PlasticRivetsExtenderPiece/

http://www.jetpress.com/Products.aspx/pcqgfvqb19/PlasticRivets-RatchetType/


----------



## Colin111 (12 Oct 2017)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, The 10ppi 7.5cm thick sheet should be fine at 60 x 60cm.
> 
> cheers Darrel


I'd convinced myself that 10ppi was too porous, I'll have a rethink on that. Cheers.


----------



## Parablennius (13 Oct 2017)

Colin, I got mine from this place.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HMF-Hambu...-10-ppi20-ppi30-/281355699595?var=&hash=item0

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HMF-Hambu...-10-ppi20-ppi30-/281355699595?var=&hash=item0


----------



## Colin111 (13 Oct 2017)

Parablennius said:


> Colin, I got mine from this place.
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HMF-Hambu...-10-ppi20-ppi30-/281355699595?var=&hash=item0


Yeah, I had seen them but (like a few others) they only do 50cm x 50cm sheets which limits the tank size for my purposes.


----------



## dw1305 (13 Oct 2017)

Hi all, 





Colin111 said:


> I'd convinced myself that 10ppi was too porous,


The thicker the plate is the more porous the sponge can be. 

We aren't particularly interested in the denitrification, that can occur in the centres of established finer sponge HMF's, because we have plants for nitrate removal. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## JMorgan (14 Nov 2019)

With a proviso/reminder that there is NOTHING magical about Poret branded foam, it is just standard polyether foam with an inflated price tag! Please refer to my earlier posts re 'Poret' vs polyether vs polyethylene

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hamburg-...hash=item5b507d20fe:m:mXnmT6kWWVdygC_UfEg70jQ

This envobee-shrimp eBay store is stocking 'Poret' foam, which at the very least suggests it's actually polyether. For convenience it might be worth considering the extra expense of these pre-cut products. I have no affiliation with this store, I'm just pleased to see that it is at least available in a recognisable form in the UK without punters having to do a deep dive to identify decent quality foam. 

Personally I'm a bit torn because while I want to support this awareness and understanding in the hobby, so we can stop the 'throwaway' mentality that comes with polyethylene sponge filters, this particular store is not great either in terms of pricing or the owner's attempts to game the eBay search engine, for e.g. applying Hamburg-Matten to a filter that clearly isn't that design in the link above. Depending on your use case you're almost certainly better off buying a large sheet of polyether from someone who isn't selling specifically for the aquarium hobby and cutting it up yourself. But for some it might be worth the extra few quid to have it arrive ready to go.


----------



## Chris Tinker (14 Nov 2019)

Watching with interest to purchase some for the future to replace some eventually.


----------



## MWood (24 Nov 2019)

I'd really like to do an entire back wall, with a powerhead or two, but finding a sheet of sufficient size is troublesome- as mentioned 50x50cm is the largest I can find (e.g. https://www.shrimpcorner.co.uk/home/sponge-sheet-poret-foam-black.html)

Attaching more than one sheet together to make up the width seems unlikely, but I have wondered about using a couple of larger foam blocks either side to ensure a tight fit. Tank I have in mind is 80cm, so I could use a pair or 15cm blocks with the longer sheet wedged inbetween. Does that sound reasonable do you think? That said, I also wondered if there was a way to 'sew' sheets together end to end. 

The other thing I've always wondered is about the proximity of the heater to the foam - I'm presuming that even should one malfunction and get stuck on, there's no risk of melting/burning/unpleasantness?


----------



## JMorgan (24 Nov 2019)

MWood said:


> I'd really like to do an entire back wall, with a powerhead or two, but finding a sheet of sufficient size is troublesome- as mentioned 50x50cm is the largest I can find (e.g. https://www.shrimpcorner.co.uk/home/sponge-sheet-poret-foam-black.html)
> 
> Attaching more than one sheet together to make up the width seems unlikely, but I have wondered about using a couple of larger foam blocks either side to ensure a tight fit. Tank I have in mind is 80cm, so I could use a pair or 15cm blocks with the longer sheet wedged inbetween. Does that sound reasonable do you think? That said, I also wondered if there was a way to 'sew' sheets together end to end.
> 
> The other thing I've always wondered is about the proximity of the heater to the foam - I'm presuming that even should one malfunction and get stuck on, there's no risk of melting/burning/unpleasantness?


Taking the last question first, I believe there are heaters available that have a PCB design that effectively ensures they fail by not working, rather than working constantly. Also a bloke I know in the USA who runs a lot (typical of the American hobby) of large tanks (100+ USG) had a disastrous heater failure that cooked his fish and so now runs several smaller wattage heaters per tank stating that, say three x 100W heaters will do identical work to one 300W heater but do much less harm should one of them fail and stay on. 
I'm about to cut some of my foam down to retrofit my sponge filters and I will have some off cuts to experiment with regarding heat. I can't promise anything very scientific, but I will certainly attempt to find out more.
I think you could sew polyether blocks together with nylon thread or fishing line as its tough stuff. I also think you could skewer it together with something like a knitting needle or plastic rod. As you say the compression applied gently across the length by the sides of the tank will do most of the work of holding it in place and you'd just need to stop if bulging. Skewering it with rods would also make servicing it much easier years down the line.
That said, you might want to contact some of the german aquaristik suppliers online to see if they can supply the length you need - ironically a lot of this stuff is actually made in the UK and merely processed (cut and branded as Poret) in Germany, which is why I've always found it annoying that its relatively hard to come by. My disabled partner has recently employed a lovely lady carer who's fluent in German and I'd already planned to subvert her skills, but I can't promise when.
cheers
Julian


----------



## Edvet (24 Nov 2019)

MWood said:


> as mentioned 50x50cm is the largest I can find


Pondshops sell 100x50 cm here https://www.nikoi.nl/vijverproducten/filtermaterialen-vijver/filterschuim-vijver-filtermaterialen


----------



## MWood (24 Nov 2019)

Edvet said:


> Pondshops sell 100x50 cm here https://www.nikoi.nl/vijverproducten/filtermaterialen-vijver/filterschuim-vijver-filtermaterialen


Aha! That looks pretty perfect, though spending €50 on a piece of foam does make me wince a little. I take it these are pretty rigid and won't need any major support in the tank? Was thinking about using some channel of one kind or another to keep the substrate out but otherwise just cutting it slightly large and jamming it in, with the water movement and powerheads affixed to the back pane holding it steady...


----------



## MWood (24 Nov 2019)

MWood said:


> Aha! That looks pretty perfect, though spending €50 on a piece of foam does make me wince a little. I take it these are pretty rigid and won't need any major support in the tank? Was thinking about using some channel of one kind or another to keep the substrate out but otherwise just cutting it slightly large and jamming it in, with the water movement and powerheads affixed to the back pane holding it steady...


Apologies, just realised this was covered just a few messages previously!


----------



## MWood (30 Nov 2019)

What are people’s thoughts on flow with HMFs? I suspect a high turnover/low flow is desirable, but may be wrong! 

Specifically, I’m wondering if 2x 400lph Newa maxi jets will suffice on a 32” HMF,  with a distance of 18” front to back. Want decent circulation for the plants, without it being excessive for the fish, whilst also being optimal for the filter. I could use a larger model and turn it down, but would rather not use the extra electricity if I don’t need to. 

Cheers


----------



## MJQMJQ (1 Dec 2019)

MWood said:


> What are people’s thoughts on flow with HMFs? I suspect a high turnover/low flow is desirable, but may be wrong!
> 
> Specifically, I’m wondering if 2x 400lph Newa maxi jets will suffice on a 32” HMF,  with a distance of 18” front to back. Want decent circulation for the plants, without it being excessive for the fish, whilst also being optimal for the filter. I could use a larger model and turn it down, but would rather not use the extra electricity if I don’t need to.
> 
> Cheers


The sponge will kinda block the current.Its not that high honestly its really more for lower maintenance due to more surface area so you clean it less often and also not visible because its black.Not to forget biological filtration as well.External filters are still the best if u have the budget and need the flow.


----------



## Edvet (1 Dec 2019)

I don't think it will be a problem in a planted tank, because most bacterial activity will be on the plants and it's rootsystem. Only in higher tech you want to have a 'cleaner' tank, so i guess this will colide with the lower maintenance, longer stand time of the HMF,  which might increase the "load" of the filter. If you manage to make it so you can change it out/clean easily there should be no problem.


----------



## MWood (29 Dec 2019)

Ended up getting some foam from this eBay seller if anyone  is looking for a UK source of larger sheets. Now just need to get a piece of acrylic cut to use as a substrate retainer, will probably fabricate something which will do this but also mean I can take the HMF in and out if required. Do wish I'd gone for a wider tank than 45cm, as the foam and powerheads take up a good 12 of that.


----------



## Gill (29 Dec 2019)

If you want to see some more In depth videos on these. I would highly recommend having a look at flip aquatics. Their entire fish house is run on these filters. 

Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk


----------



## fish-nut (15 May 2020)

Thanks to JMorgan for setting up this minor rant about decent foam. I was very close to my own RANT. Thanks for your tenacity! Thanks too for Colin111 for finding a solution - I have just ordered from the foam shop.


----------

