# Best Way To Start A Planted Tank?



## mark4785 (30 Oct 2011)

I have bought a new aquarium with all the necessary parts with the intention of creating another planted aquarium. In addition to adding plants I'd like to add some sensitive species of fish, possibly a german blue ram as it is my favourite tropical fish.

My question is, if I get started with the planting now, including designing an aquascape, planting, running co2 and dosing ferts, how long will it take for the aquarium to be ABSOLUTELY safe for introducing a german blue ram(s)? I'm so used to the idea of conducting a 2-3 month fishless cycle before adding fish so to add fish without doing this step is causing me to question how and when the aquarium will be viable for fish.

Please bare in mind that the likelihood of me producing an absolutely stunning aquascape with thriving plants is just a fantasy so please don't tell me that "the plants will absorb the ammonia and nitrite". That would only happen on the presumption that I don't come up against problems.

Thanks in advanced to anybody who can provide advise,

Mark.


----------



## ghostsword (30 Oct 2011)

I have had a tank running for over two years and I cannot keep rams, they all die. My brothers have small tanks, barely water changes, lots of water imbalances and they keep them fine.  with fish I never know. 

I would say that a tank needs to cycle for at least 30 days.

Add lots of plants, water changes, good filtration and buy healthy fish, you should be ok.


.


----------



## Polly (31 Oct 2011)

If you have a tank already cycled you can use some of the mulm from that filter in the new one and on/in the new substrate, or a piece of  the filter sponge to instantly cycle the new tank (don't clean it first  )

As long as you condition the tap water you're sorted     Good Plant mass will also help

I Cycled my first tank way back and any new tank is simply started up in this way.  Not had any problems yet - though the first time I did it was a bit scarey.


----------



## dw1305 (31 Oct 2011)

Hi all,
Planted tanks are never cycled in the way that a non-planted tank would be, but I like a long stabilisation period so I usually leave mine for a couple of months until  plant growth has filled in, some bio-film has developed, the micro-fauna has multiplied and water conditions are stable. 





> If you have a tank already cycled you can use some of the mulm from that filter in the new one and on/in the new substrate, or a piece of the filter sponge to instantly cycle the new tank


 This is always a good idea, even for planted tanks. 

I think you've had a similar thread before? <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=17590&p=180865>.

Blue Rams are a bit of a problem fish, as others have suggested the quality of stock coming from the Far East is pretty poor, and I would only keep them if you can buy young fish from a breeder, have a look on the BCA forum for a source.

The other problem is that they need warm, good quality, low conductivity water, and again if you don't have access to soft water I wouldn't try and keep them, they aren't a fish that is ever going to be happy in harder water, even if you can lower the pH. 

Some other dwarf cichlids are a lot more forgiving of harder water, as an alternative I'd suggest either Bolivian Rams (_M. altispinosa_)  or _Apistogramma cacatuoides_.

Have a look here: <http://dwarfcichlid.com/Mikrogeophagus_ramirezi.php>  and <http://dwarfcichlid.com/Breeding_Blue_Rams.php>, Apistobob's site is well worth a read for any prospective dwarf cichlid keepers, I particularly recommend the Aquarium care pages <http://dwarfcichlid.com/Aquarium_care.php>.

cheers Darrel


----------



## clonitza (31 Oct 2011)

Darrel it really depends on the breeder, here both discus and rams are raised in medium - hard water, ph ~ 7.5 - 8, gh/kh > 10-15. A local breeder that raises them in local tap water is preferred.

Of course the water quality for these fish species needs to be optimal. Rams are more sensible than discus so they need lots of water changes, quality food and of course a big tank with a lot of space to swim, the lower the fish stock the less stress on this little fellows as they are kinda territorial especially in their breeding periods.
Try and avoid SAE, corys, snails & others that can pick on their eggs, better keep them alone or with a small shoal of tetras.

Mike


----------



## roadmaster (31 Oct 2011)

Is encouraging to hear that there are those successfully keeping the german blue ram's in moderately hard water.
Unfortunately,, for every one person able to do so,,, another dozen fish are killed by other's attempting to keep them in alkaline condition's.
The majority seem to do much better in softer water IME.


----------



## Ian Holdich (31 Oct 2011)

> so please don't tell me that "the plants will absorb the ammonia and nitrite".



I think you're on the wrong forum if your not going to believe this ^^^. If you have an aquarium running at present, i would use some mature media to kick things off. I would also suggest some Purigen to help with Diotom problem you may face.


----------



## mark4785 (1 Nov 2011)

ianho said:
			
		

> > so please don't tell me that "the plants will absorb the ammonia and nitrite".
> 
> 
> 
> I think you're on the wrong forum if your not going to believe this ^^^. If you have an aquarium running at present, i would use some mature media to kick things off. I would also suggest some Purigen to help with Diotom problem you may face.



I do believe into that statement, you didn't read what I said in full. I said "please don't tell me that the plants will absorb ammonia and nitrite... as I am likely to run into problems". This means problems with algae, dieing plants, not enough flow, not enough ferts etc. All the things that have the potential to add to ammonia and nitrite through die back.

Sorry if I was too ambiguous; I think you have misconstrued what I said due to taking segments of what I say, rather than what I say as a part of a wider idea.


----------



## mark4785 (1 Nov 2011)

Thank you for all your most valued input.

In summary then, it is probably worth me taking the time to do a conventional fishless cycle if I am to keep a german blue ram? I definitely knew that this is the best option to employ if considering keeping such fish, I just had no idea how effective plants would be at creating a non-toxic environment for such a fish. From what's being said, I understand that a fishless cycle is essential. As a result, i'll treat the tank as though it is non-planted until I get to the end of the fishless nitrogen cycle.

I have to disagree with those stating that the mikrogeophagus ramirezi cannot survive well in hard water. My GH level is 8dH and many have commented that my Ram is one of the most colourful and healthy looking rams on the internet. In the time from being bought from the LFS, his colours have brightened ten-fold, the frayed fins have completely repaired, he has fertilised eggs and, just recently, he has recovered form hole-in-the-head disease, which due to him being around 3 years old, I attribute this problem to old age. I'm trying to get him to live until the age of at least 5 and I will not be using soft water in this endeavour.


----------



## Fred Dulley (1 Nov 2011)

I wouldn't say 8dH was hard. Try 18dH.


----------



## dw1305 (1 Nov 2011)

Hi all,


> In summary then, it is probably worth me taking the time to do a conventional fishless cycle if I am to keep a german blue ram? I definitely knew that this is the best option to employ if considering keeping such fish, I just had no idea how effective plants would be at creating a non-toxic environment for such a fish. From what's being said, I understand that a fishless cycle is essential. As a result, i'll treat the tank as though it is non-planted until I get to the end of the fishless nitrogen cycle.


 Depends what you mean by a "fishless cycle", if you mean adding liquid ammonia  then this doesn't offer any advantage and maybe actively damaging. If you mean not adding any fish until the planting is established? then I would agree with that. 





> I just had no idea how effective plants would be at creating a non-toxic environment for such a fish


 Plants are very effective. When I had the planted trickle filters running in the lab (we did some land-fill leachate work) they had an almost instant effect on water quality.  


> I have to disagree with those stating that the mikrogeophagus ramirezi cannot survive well in hard water. My GH level is 8dH


 Like Mike says provenance of the fish may make a difference, and other factors may come into play as well as the dGH, for example the conductivity of your water would be interesting.  The other thing is the owner, if you can offer high quality water, high levels of aeration, a good diet, complex environment etc you can get away with a lot more than if you don't. You have obviously catered to the needs of your Rams very successfully, if you like it is the difference between being a "fish keeper" and a "fish haver". 

cheers Darrel


----------



## mark4785 (1 Nov 2011)

> Depends what you mean by a "fishless cycle", if you mean adding liquid ammonia  then this doesn't offer any advantage and maybe actively damaging. If you mean not adding any fish until the planting is established? then I would agree with that.



Damaging to what? I do my fishless cycles (using pure ammonia) with nothing but substrate and filter.

I indeed mean't "not adding any fish until the plants are established". Are you agreeing that plants alone, owned by a novice planted tank keeper (meaning I will come up against problems like die-back) containing a german blue ram is safe, OR, are you agreeing that a problem-free, perfect, lush planted tank containing a german blue ram is safe? The latter is a myth and won't be a factor with my planted tank since i will have a lot of learning curves to overcome.



> Plants are very effective. When I had the planted trickle filters running in the lab (we did some land-fill leachate work) they had an almost instant effect on water quality.



Oh? The replies made to this topic seem to imply that doing a fishless cycle (by this i mean adding pure ammonia to the tank every 24/12 hours until 0 ppm of ammonia and 0 ppm of nitrite are recorded) would be the only way of being able to introduce a ram without harming it. I was actually under the impression that plants are not effective enough at removing ammonia and nitrite baring in mind that my planted tank would probably come up against issues to begin with (as stated in my first post) and bearing in mind I'd like to add a sensitive fish.



> The other thing is the owner, if you can offer high quality water, high levels of aeration, a good diet, complex environment etc you can get away with a lot more than if you don't. You have obviously catered to the needs of your Rams very successfully, if you like it is the difference between being a "fish keeper" and a "fish haver".



I do what i consider to be a number of positive things to make the fish happy I guess (please don't think i'm looney!):

1. I've got him to associate a transparent plastic beaker with blood worms, since every friday I fill a plastic beaker up with tank water and swirl the blood worm around in front of the fish. This causes his colours to become very bold and most colourful, which i associate with happiness rather than what an evolutionist might say is "a warning to other animals".

2. Tap the fishes head to encourage tameness.

3. Feed high quality food because this helps a lot with resistance to succumbing to illness through bad water quality or pathogens in the water. I'm not saying everyone should have bad water (i.e. high ammonia or wrong GH) but from observing both my tropicals and cold water fish, it is clear to see that the fish that prefer to eat less nutritious food will respond much quicker to a temporary problem with water quality than the fish choosing to eat the nutrious food.

In response to the 'fish haver' comment, my relatives own a 50 litre aquarium containing 3 goldfish and dechlorinated water. 'Fish havers' only realise what they are doing is bad when they come up against problems when they switch to the less hardy species.

cheers Darrel[/quote]


----------



## Fred Dulley (1 Nov 2011)

mark4785 said:
			
		

> Oh? The replies made to this topic seem to imply that doing a fishless cycle (by this i mean adding pure ammonia to the tank every 24/12 hours until 0 ppm of ammonia and 0 ppm of nitrite are recorded) would be the only way of being able to introduce a ram without harming it. ]



How did you come up with that impression?



> Add lots of plants, water changes, good filtration and buy healthy fish, you should be ok.





> As long as you condition the tap water you're sorted  Good Plant mass will also help






			
				mark4785 said:
			
		

> 2. Tap the fishes head to encourage tameness.


----------



## PeteA (1 Nov 2011)

Quite an interesting read and does throw a question or two to my mind.  Pretty much every fish-orientated forum heavily pushes running a fishless cycle with pure ammonia (or BioMature) - I did this with my last tank.

From the comments above, adding ammonia into a planted tank could be detrimental to plants.  So going down this road means that you should leave putting any plants in until such time as your tank is cycled.  This must mean that you need to fully plant your tank and immediately put fish in one after the other, as once the tank is planted you can no longer feed the bacteria in the filter thus need ammonia from a different source (a fishes bottom).

Or am I reading that getting a tank planted will provide some level of ammonia processing which will allow the introduction of some fish (and kick off building the bacteria colony like this).

Or have I mis-read this completely?!


----------



## Ian Holdich (1 Nov 2011)

mark4785 said:
			
		

> ianho said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



the rest of my post offered a little help though??


----------



## dw1305 (1 Nov 2011)

Hi all,
We've been down this route before including recently in the "other" thread <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=17590&p=180865>, but 


> Pretty much every fish-orientated forum heavily pushes running a fishless cycle with pure ammonia (or BioMature) - I did this with my last tank.


 This is relevant to some degree for an un-planted tank, where all of the biological filtration, the process of converting NH3 - NO2 - NO3, is carried out in the filter media and the light is purely cosmetic, so that you can observe the fish. In this case, as well as ammonia, you need a lot of oxygen and a supply of carbonates. The idea is that the ammonia simulates a large fish load (ammonia continually diffuses out from the fishes gills into the tank water) and by maintaining high levels of ammonia over several weeks you can arrive at a cycled tank ready for a large fish load which you can (in fact need to) introduce in one big "hit". 

You know when your tank is cycled by using test kits for NH3 - NO2 - NO3, illustrated in the graph below:






I won't comment on the efficiency of nitrogen test kits, and in this scenario you can only reduce NO3 levels by water changes, there is no easy mechanism for removing NO3 and more complicated methods using  de-nitrifying  coils, anaerobic plenums etc. have a chequered history.

This is a better method than the "sacrificial fish" method that preceded it, but it isn't really relevant to us, our tanks don't accumulate NO3, quite the opposite the growing plants deplete it. We also have evidence that many plants preferentially take up NH3 and NO2, and that the nitrogen cycle in the planted aquarium is much more complex than in the un-planted tank. A tank with healthily growing plants and water movement for gas exchange has enormous potential  for biological filtration.

Will adding ammonia to the planted tank speed the cycling process up? Almost certainly no are tanks are never cycled in the way an un-planted tank would be' <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=14538&p=151055> but the combination of ammonia and light is likely to trigger algal growth as the levels of ammonia fall and become less toxic.



> From the comments above, adding ammonia into a planted tank could be detrimental to plants. So going down this road means that you should leave putting any plants in until such time as your tank is cycled. This must mean that you need to fully plant your tank and immediately put fish in one after the other, as once the tank is planted you can no longer feed the bacteria in the filter thus need ammonia from a different source (a fishes bottom).


No, you plant the tank, and then leave it, once the plants are established you add the fish. I still add my fish in sequence over a couple of weeks, but this is probably over cautious. Have a look at my comments on this thread. <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=12800&p=140759>



> Oh? The replies made to this topic seem to imply that doing a fishless cycle (by this i mean adding pure ammonia to the tank every 24/12 hours until 0 ppm of ammonia and 0 ppm of nitrite are recorded) would be the only way of being able to introduce a ram without harming it. I was actually under the impression that plants are not effective enough at removing ammonia and nitrite baring in mind that my planted tank would probably come up against issues to begin with (as stated in my first post) and bearing in mind I'd like to add a sensitive fish.


I think I've made my last comment on this thread, I don't know what else I can say other than:

*plants are extremely effective at maintaining water quality, and this is true in almost any scenario*.

cheers Darrel


----------



## spyder (1 Nov 2011)

What size is the aquarium and what else do you intend to stock?


----------



## mark4785 (2 Nov 2011)

> plants are extremely effective at maintaining water quality, and this is true in almost any scenario.


 Definitely, though the exception, in my opinion, is where as a novice you unknowingly find yourself with significant die back and algae, which will definitely be a factor with this new tank to begin with until I learn how much fertiliser and co2 to add.



> Hi all,
> We've been down this route before including recently in the "other" thread



I wasn't requesting that you regurgitate a text book all over again. I am aware of all ideas that you have mentioned but thank you for the input anyway.


----------



## mark4785 (2 Nov 2011)

spyder said:
			
		

> What size is the aquarium and what else do you intend to stock?



Well its capacity is 120 litres and as of now I'd like to stock it with two german blue rams, just still undecided on how best to integrate them.

I think the best method would be a pure ammonia fishless cycle as I'm better at doing those than using plants to keep the water quality good!


----------



## Fred Dulley (2 Nov 2011)

mark4785 said:
			
		

> > plants are extremely effective at maintaining water quality, and this is true in almost any scenario.
> 
> 
> Definitely, though the exception, in my opinion, is where as a novice you unknowingly find yourself with significant die back and algae, which will definitely be a factor with this new tank to begin with until I learn how much fertiliser and co2 to add.
> ...



Wow, rude.
You certainly have an attitude Mark and its clear in other threads too. People are only offering help and I commend them for that.
"thanks anyway" doesnt cut it.


----------



## spyder (2 Nov 2011)

mark4785 said:
			
		

> spyder said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



120l is a good size for a pair of dwarf rams. What some people are trying to explain is that it would be near impossible for 2 small fish like this to create a high level of ammonia in this volume of water when the tank is planted. Do this in a 20cm cube and it's a totally different story.

You can go ahead with your ammonia and test kits if you like, this is everyones free choice but you are confusing the two approaches and trying to adopt a technique that ones uses and force it upon the other where in reality it has been made redundant.

I would be inclined to pull the trigger, you may surprise yourself.


----------



## PeteA (2 Nov 2011)

dw1305 said:
			
		

> ...
> *plants are extremely effective at maintaining water quality, and this is true in almost any scenario*.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Thanks for the clear explanation.  Sorry I was going over old ground (and slightly hijacking the thread too).  Probably like a lot of other people I've mooched around on various forums and sites and only ever come across articles and comments emphasising the importance of fishless cycling a tank - perhaps an article on setting up a planted tank for fish within the articles section on the site would clarify the situation and get the message out there that it's a perfectly valid alternative.

pete


----------



## dw1305 (2 Nov 2011)

Hi all,


> I wasn't requesting that you regurgitate a text book all over again. I am aware of all ideas that you have mentioned but thank you for the input anyway.


 Mark, I think I've made all the comment I can, but you are not obliged to listen to me or any of the other posters on this forum. I don't know what you want from us, but I'm not going to change my opinion and I think I've got a pretty good understanding of both the theory, and the practicalities, of managing the nitrogen cycle.

cheers Darrel


----------



## BigTom (2 Nov 2011)

Wow. This thread is insane.

OP claims he wishes to set up a planted tank but then states catagorically that he will be unable to succeed, and then goes on to ignore large amounts of very good advice about the former, because of the latter.

I've just reread all three pages three times because I'm stuck in a BnB with nothing better to do, and I still don't understand what you want to hear, Mark.


----------



## mark4785 (2 Nov 2011)

dw1305 said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> 
> 
> > I wasn't requesting that you regurgitate a text book all over again. I am aware of all ideas that you have mentioned but thank you for the input anyway.
> ...



Hey,

I am definitely listening however you're presuming i'm an expert when it comes to maintaining a planted aquarium and as such you have provided evidence of what a successful planted aquarium is able to achieve in terms of nutrients uptake (this encompasses ammonia and nitrite in particular).

With respect, I wasn't asking for a generic explanation (almost text book like) about the role of plants in a environment in which they flourish. I was asking if it would be safe to introduce a fish to a planted aquarium on day 1 (without any fishless cycle having been conducted obv) baring in mind i'm a novice and the plants may die or suffer die back. I expected the answer to be no, and others have suggested this. You, however, came at it from a vey generic text book angle.

Now, funnily enough, the reason for me being disgruntled is that you said words to the effect "this is my last visit to this thread" implying I'd done something wrong in politely requesting for others opinions because, according to you,"we've been over this before" in another topic. I'm sorry but, you could have referred me back to the other topic rather than typing everything out again.

I'm not going to pretend to be happy when people slip sentences like that in their replies unless there is a logical reason for it.


----------



## J Butler (2 Nov 2011)

dw1305 said:
			
		

> > From the comments above, adding ammonia into a planted tank could be detrimental to plants. So going down this road means that you should leave putting any plants in until such time as your tank is cycled. This must mean that you need to fully plant your tank and immediately put fish in one after the other, as once the tank is planted you can no longer feed the bacteria in the filter thus need ammonia from a different source (a fishes bottom).
> 
> 
> No, you plant the tank, and then leave it, once the plants are established you add the fish. I still add my fish in sequence over a couple of weeks, but this is probably over cautious. Have a look at my comments on this thread. <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=12800&p=140759>



Hi Mark,

I think Darrel did mention that it's a good idea to get the plants established before you add your fish back on page 2...


----------



## Morgan Freeman (2 Nov 2011)

I think Mark's concern is that he'll add the fish to his planted tank but due to his lack of experience with plants he's worried they'll die off and start decreasing his water quality, with this in mind I'd be worried about adding fish. Taking this into account the best step would be to a) work on your plant growing skills before adding fish OR b) do the usual fishless cycling. However, given the sensitive nature of the fish you want to keep it would be best if you did indeed have a large, healthy plant mass to help with water quality. So you only really have one option which is to get some healthy plants established. Why not stick with easy plants like Java ferns etc?


Sorry if I'm off base here, but that's my understanding of this thread.


----------



## PeteA (3 Nov 2011)

Morgan Freeman said:
			
		

> I think Mark's concern is that he'll add the fish to his planted tank but due to his lack of experience with plants he's worried they'll die off and start decreasing his water quality, with this in mind I'd be worried about adding fish. Taking this into account the best step would be to a) work on your plant growing skills before adding fish OR b) do the usual fishless cycling. However, given the sensitive nature of the fish you want to keep it would be best if you did indeed have a large, healthy plant mass to help with water quality. So you only really have one option which is to get some healthy plants established. Why not stick with easy plants like Java ferns etc?
> 
> 
> Sorry if I'm off base here, but that's my understanding of this thread.



For the tank I'm about to set up I'm planning on getting the plants established for a week+ before adding any fish - basically rather than adding ammonia, I'm adding in plants & fertiliser   This will also allow me to play with getting my CO2 and light levels running properly.


----------



## mark4785 (3 Nov 2011)

Morgan Freeman said:
			
		

> I think Mark's concern is that he'll add the fish to his planted tank but due to his lack of experience with plants he's worried they'll die off and start decreasing his water quality, with this in mind I'd be worried about adding fish. Taking this into account the best step would be to a) work on your plant growing skills before adding fish OR b) do the usual fishless cycling. However, given the sensitive nature of the fish you want to keep it would be best if you did indeed have a large, healthy plant mass to help with water quality. So you only really have one option which is to get some healthy plants established. Why not stick with easy plants like Java ferns etc?
> 
> 
> Sorry if I'm off base here, but that's my understanding of this thread.



You have hit the nail on the head there..

Its quite a specific question that I should imagine requires somebody with a lot of knowledge to answer. An experienced plant keeper will have been a novice in a situation involving die-back at some point in the past which is why I am mythed that certain people were approaching this thread needlessly with 'text book style replies' on the function of 'healthy' plants and their effects.

I've made my mind up on what to do. Although, some people here have described the fishless cycle has outmoded by the function of plants acting has 'biological filters' (in effect assuming the plants are healthy which is not something I had mentioned here), but at the same time cannot provide an answer to the question "is a novices' planted aquarium with huge potential for problems suitable/safe for the mikrogeophagus ramirezi?" i'm going to just do a fishless cycle which guarantees clean, healthy water at it's conclusion.

There's no doubt that at the 'conclusion' of learning how to maintain a planted tank, the plants will have the function of removing nitrogens, but I NEVER mentioned that I was a professional who would achieve this straight away.


----------



## mark4785 (3 Nov 2011)

BigTom said:
			
		

> Wow. This thread is insane.
> 
> OP claims he wishes to set up a planted tank but then states catagorically that he will be unable to succeed, and then goes on to ignore large amounts of very good advice about the former, because of the latter.
> 
> I've just reread all three pages three times because I'm stuck in a BnB with nothing better to do, and I still don't understand what you want to hear, Mark.



Clearly the food on the BnB menu took your attention away from the thread lol. I never claimed I would be unable to succeed in running a planted aquarium; if that is your understanding of the term novice, please revise it.

I didn't ignore the information given; if I did that I would not have responded to it to make it known that the knowledge, although much appreciated, does not address my question.


----------



## BigTom (3 Nov 2011)

Take a relatively low tech approach, pick robust, easy to grow plants and plant heavily from the offset. Give them a few weeks to establish until you're sure they're growing happily and any initial ammonia spike has passed. Add your two fish. Easy.

You can also temporarily add quick growing plants (floaters, cabomba etc) at the beginning, as they are very efficient water cleaners, then remove them once the rest of the plants are well established.


----------



## Morgan Freeman (3 Nov 2011)

mark4785 said:
			
		

> Morgan Freeman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Are there any plants you find easy to grow? How about just sticking with the species you find that you never fail with? I always seem to fail with Vallis even though it's said to be fairly easy to grow so I just stick with stuff that works well for me. Hygros, Rotala, crypts, dwarf sag are always sure things for me so I'm sticking with them to help maintain my water quality ....I just have to scape with what I can grow atm  

Low light = Low stress IMO!


----------



## Brenmuk (3 Nov 2011)

Hi Mark4785

If I were you I would forego the addition of the rams initially and set up the planted tank as advised by Darrel using something more hardy like tetras instead (slowly building up stocking levels as even hardy fish can be wiped out by ammonia problems). Then when you are satisfied that you can grow plants successfully and the water parameters are stable, exchange the tetras for the rams. You want the bio load of the tetras to be roughly the same as the rams that you will exchange. After the exchange perform frequent perhaps daily w/c's for a week or 2 to ensure that the tank adjusts to the change in bio load without ammonia problems.

This way you get to try a planted tank and not expose the sensitive fish that you want to keep to unstable conditions.

Remember that algae are plants (well most species) and will absorb ammonia and oxygenate the the tank as well so its not a total disaster from a fish health perspective if you do end up with algae.


----------



## Morgan Freeman (3 Nov 2011)

Good advice. Sensitive species should really be added to mature tanks, mature not being just freshly cycled but stabilised with fish populations already and ideally with healthy plant mass.

Join the low light fraternity Mark!


----------



## mark4785 (3 Nov 2011)

Morgan Freeman said:
			
		

> mark4785 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes I can grow quite a good range of plants. Anubias Sp, bacopa monneri, eustralis stellata, cryptocoryne brown/green, lilaeopsis brasilliensis and a form of moss are currently growing well in my currently established tank. Due to not having much artistic talent, the positoning of the plants and bog wood do not resemble a traditional aquascape and more often than not I have a small amount of plants growing. This is one of the reasons I was worrying about my plants uptake of nitrogens if I was to set up another planted tank.

I find that I also have to stick with certain plants too, it's a shame as I usually buy plants based on how nice they look and how compatible they are with my set-up, and yet they can still die off! i've created a bit of mental shortlist of the plants that do actually grow instead of shrivel up!!


----------



## mark4785 (3 Nov 2011)

Morgan Freeman said:
			
		

> Good advice. Sensitive species should really be added to mature tanks, mature not being just freshly cycled but stabilised with fish populations already and ideally with healthy plant mass.
> 
> Join the low light fraternity Mark!



How do I do that with a high output T5's? lol

I have just begun binning quite a bit of my floating amazon frogbit to introduce more light as the leaves of my bacopa monnieri where getting smaller towards the tops implying too little light. 48 hours into removing the frogbit I have what looks like white tufts all over the bog wood. 

In all honesty, I prefer the high-light set-ups but, probably like yourself, have to keep reverting it to low light due to the stress of the algal problems.


----------



## Morgan Freeman (3 Nov 2011)

I find the growth in low light set ups comparable to terrarium growth with high light, which is what I'm used to. Slow growth doesn't really bother me. I'm at the stage where I'm practising plant growing rather than scaping so I'm not too bothered if my tanks don't look so great.


----------



## mark4785 (5 Nov 2011)

Brenmuk said:
			
		

> Hi Mark4785
> 
> If I were you I would forego the addition of the rams initially and set up the planted tank as advised by Darrel using something more hardy like tetras instead (slowly building up stocking levels as even hardy fish can be wiped out by ammonia problems). Then when you are satisfied that you can grow plants successfully and the water parameters are stable, exchange the tetras for the rams. You want the bio load of the tetras to be roughly the same as the rams that you will exchange. After the exchange perform frequent perhaps daily w/c's for a week or 2 to ensure that the tank adjusts to the change in bio load without ammonia problems.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your suggestions Brenmuk.

There are some issues in what you are saying though. For instance, knowing what constitutes the same bioload in rams compared to tetras when it gets to the point when I exchange the tetras for rams is going to be speculative. Also, how would I know that the water parameters are stable as the plants will be absorbing everything before I can monitor it. It might be that adding fish will tip the balance as the plants will only be utilising ferts that I add, rather than the waste products of fish.

I can see the logic in what you're saying but theres no science involved; the whole process would be risky, unpredictable and guess work. I liken it to trying to write in a room with no lights; if your eyes don't adjust then you're stuck.

I am now in a position to fill the tank with water and get the external filter running and the dilemma is, is it worth waiting 2-3 months for my fishless cycle to complete or is it worth filling the tank with as many plants has possible and risking the health of a ram which will definitely die if there is any trace of ammonia or nitrite. With a fishless cycle I can approach controlling the ammonia and nitrite quasi-scientifically, establishing cause and effect between ammonia dosage and ammonia concentration in the water over a given period until a positive effect is reached. With a planted tank, this process is going to be presumptious unless i'm missing something.

As much as i'd like to get planted and observe everything growing, I think for the sake of the fish I'd like to introduce I'm going to start a fishless cycle so I don't come up against problems. It's a real shame as I've planned my scape, placed all the sand within the tank, ordered my manzanita and rocks. 

Mark.


----------



## spyder (5 Nov 2011)

Hi. Have you figured out a sequence for this fishless cycle? Dosing ammonia with plants or planting when the cycle is complete?

If your dosing ammonia in planted a tank you risk algae problems.

If you cycle without plants, then plant you have to add stock. Plants would not be settled and you you risk problems.

If you plant, run a week or 2, introduce stock as suggested you will reach a safer place with less stress. When you come to stock your rams there's no need to be worried about the bio load. If you are, remove more than you add.

Good luck with the tank and rams.


----------



## dw1305 (6 Nov 2011)

Hi all,


> With a fishless cycle I can approach controlling the ammonia and nitrite quasi-scientifically, establishing cause and effect between ammonia dosage and ammonia concentration in the water over a given period until a positive effect is reached. With a planted tank, this process is going to be presumptious unless i'm missing something.


Mark, you are missing something, this is totally the wrong way around and there is nothing scientific about it. 

You cannot accurately measure NH3, (or even to a lesser degree NO2 or NO3) in tank water, unless you have dedicated laboratory quality analytical kit. I actually have access to an ion selective electode costing £thousands, and I still couldn't get a meaningful measurement of NH3/NH4+ ions.

This is the reason scientists at the Environment Agency etc use the 4 day BOD (Bichemical Oxygen Demand) test and biotic indices (based upon invertebrate and plant life samples) to score river health. Unfortunately neither of these are possible for us, although you can use a very rough estimation of BOD. This is related to the REDOX potential that Marine Aquarists measure.

What we do know from extensive resarch is that plants are extremely effective at maintaining water quality, and this is true in almost any scenario. If you don't have Diana Walstad's book,  it is worth getting a copy. 





> _ECOLOGY of the PLANTED AQUARIUM - A Practical Manual and Scientific Treatise for the Home Aquarist Second Edition" _(2003)


You could also have a look at this link: <http://plecoplanet.com/?page_id=829>, although it is titled "_Aeration and dissolved oxygen in the aquarium_" it covers biological filtration to some degree as well.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Brenmuk (7 Nov 2011)

Hi Mark4785

Sounds like your mind is made up to do the fishless cycling - good luck with that let us know how you get on.


----------



## mark4785 (8 Nov 2011)

Brenmuk said:
			
		

> Hi Mark4785
> 
> Sounds like your mind is made up to do the fishless cycling - good luck with that let us know how you get on.



Yes. I've not started the cycle yet as I found that the priming handle that came with my external Fluval 406 has snapped off. Fluval have dispatched out a replacement so when that arrives I'll get filling the tank and dosing pure ammonia.

I think someone (sorry forgot your name) before your reply stated the fishless cycle isn't scientific. I never said it was fully scientific, it's just a more comfortable process that is more easily controlled and you usually know where you are with it. For instance, in hard water (8dh), with a total alkalinity level of 5dh and a PH of 8.4, you usually achieve a consistent 0ppm of ammonia 24 hours after the 7th/8th day of dosing pure ammonia. It's trends like this that I think make the process more friendly than just leaving it to the plants.

If I was going to be putting a much more hardy fish in the water then I'd be more inclined to just start planting but the Mikrogeophagus Ram is exceptional.


----------



## Lemsip (9 Nov 2011)

Fishless cycling is a good choice - planted I've found it speeds it up quite dramatically too.


----------



## Tim Harrison (10 Nov 2011)

There is always a tendency to overcomplicate matters. I have just returned to the hobby after over 25 years absence and all this gubbins about fishless cycling etc and the science behind it was largely unheard of, despite dedicated periodicals such as Tropical Fish Hobbyist and The Aquarist, and I always managed perfectly well without fatalities. 

The science behind a biochemically balanced aquarium is not easily understood by many, but in my humble opinion much of it is common sense. Plant moderately - heavily with the plants you know you can grow, and then add the fish one or two at a time over the space of a month or so.

The plants will instantly start to take up any available Ammonium from the water column through their leaves along with other sources of nitrogen and therefore meet the shortfall whilst the filter cycles. 

I often place fish straight into a newly planted tank on the same day it is set up, the only additive I use is water conditioner, but I have had equally successful results without. The key is to load the system gradually so that the water purifying quality of the plants combined with the filters capacity to meet demand is not overwhelmed. You also have the safety net of water changes.

Hope this helps


----------

