# Optimum Lighting WPG



## Dolly Sprint 16v (15 Feb 2009)

Gang@ukaps

Please advise what the optimum wpg levels would be required for an Aqua One AR980 Tank
Dimension are
Lenght = 39" or 100cm
Width = 18" or 46cm @ its widest as it is bow fronted
Height = 17" or 44cm
Approx capacity = 217ltr that what aqua state.

Regards
Paul


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## Nelson (15 Feb 2009)

hi,
 deleted  
neil


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## Ed Seeley (15 Feb 2009)

Paul if you aim for roughly 2wpg of T5 linear light over any medium sized tank then you can't go too far wrong.  For tanks under 2ft (60cm) you can up that a bit to maybe 3wpg and for larger ones it can drop below 2wpg.  This assumes you have linear T5s with good reflectors.  For other less efficient lighting you may want to aim slightly above that level but as wpg is such as rough guide to light level it one of those areas where there is no one definitive answer.  

You also have to think that if you aim above what you need then you can always reduce the photoperiod of the lights or turn one bulb off (or take it out of the fitting) to lower the light levels whereas if you start with just enough you don't have the option of increasing the lighting later without adding another fixture.


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## Dave Spencer (16 Feb 2009)

I reckon you could get away with two reflected T8 tubes running the length of the tank. You could buy an Arcadia luminaire with three tubes, and possibly use the third for a midday burst.

I was a little concerned my 120cm may not have enough light, as I have always used T5 tubes and PCs, but I needn`t have worried.

Dave.


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (16 Feb 2009)

Ed and dave 

Thx for your replies my current lighting:2 x Flora glow 30 watt 36â€ in length & 1 x Aqua glow 25 watt 30â€ in length. Total wattage 85watt on a 217 litre aquarium (Aqua one AR980). Want to up my Wpg - but don't know by how much.

Regards

Paul


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## Egmel (23 Feb 2009)

If you want amano levels then this site suggests aiming for about 150w.  However with that amount of lighting you would need a good ferts and CO2 regime.

Optimum lighting is very dependant on what you want to achieve and what the rest of your system consists of.  The figure above is what Amano would probably use judging by his past tanks however there is a lot of variance in his work as well.

You need to consider - 
What plants you want to grow - some plants require a lot of light others can get overloaded and burn out quickly if the light is too bright.
What maintenance you want to perform (higher growth rates mean more frequent pruning)
Whether the rest of you regime (CO2/Ferts) will be able to cope with the lighting you're intending or whether they will need to be upgraded too.

Lighting is all about balance and while we have rules of thumb to help us choose where to aim for what is actually optimum depends on the tank/scape in question.


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (23 Feb 2009)

Egmel said:
			
		

> If you want amano levels then this site suggests aiming for about 150w.  However with that amount of lighting you would need a good ferts and CO2 regime.
> 
> Optimum lighting is very dependant on what you want to achieve and what the rest of your system consists of.  The figure above is what Amano would probably use judging by his past tanks however there is a lot of variance in his work as well.
> 
> ...



*Egmel*
i have a choice of two units - one on ebay the other from Aqua one. 

No.1 - AQUAONE OVERTANK LUMINAIRE LIGHT UNIT 93CM 3 X 39 W T5 @ Â£149.99
Aqua One new T5 range have been designed to fit aquariums from 2 to 4 feet in length. They are a superior range of lights providing maximum light output from a small compact unit. Manufactured using aluminium finish it adds a touch of class with the added benefit of anti corrosion qualities. 
Excellent for Marine or Freshwater use 
High Intensity light output 
Stylish slimline design 
Two on / off switches for flexibility
Protective splash guard 
INCLUDES standard T5 bulbs 
Supplied with suspension kit & adjustable legs 
Model Length Metal Halides Cables 
T5-93
93cm
3 x 39 watt
1.7 m
Technical Data 

or

T5 AQUARIUM OVERHEAD LIGHT 4X39W Blue Actinic Marine Extra Reef Moonlight Bulbs 100cm Length In Silver or Black. @ Â£125.00

The Overtank T5 is raised clear from the top of the tank on adjustable legs, which attach securely onto the glass side walls. The light can then be tilted back into a near vertical position to allow easy access to the aquarium when needed. The light has 2 switches one to control the outside 2 lamps and one to control the inside 2 lamps.

The built in Reflectors raise the power of the light about 50% extra

Marine T5 model come with 4 X 39W Blue Actinic Extra Reef Moonlight Bulbs. These are standard bulbs that you can get anywhere in the UK we also stock spare bulbs if you wish to purchase any.

1) Open top allows plant growth beyond the water surface
2) Bulbs can be changed to freshwater bulbs you can purchase freshwater bulbs from your local aquatics we do not currently stock these.
3) Multiple lamp option for improved plant / coral growth
4) In-built reflectors, to maximise the light output
5) Adjustable mounting brackets
6) High quality Aluminium cover

Silver or Black available please send us a message to confirm which colour you wish to purchase.
Other size lights available with 2 tubes 60cm, 90cm, 100cm, 120cm, 150cm.
We also have 4 tube versions sizes 90cm, 120cm, 150cm.
Measurements: 100 X 24 X 6 cm
Power: 156W (4X39W)
Tube: T5 Blue Extra Reef Light. (Colour 25000 Kelvin)

I will have to buy tubes that are suitable for my tank requirements. As for Co2 usage or ppm levels I could not tell you as my chart does not state ppm - only colours - yellow = bad, blue is not enough. Mine are @ end of day 23:00 colour is lime green, @ start of day 13:00 its dark green. 

I just want to add a bit more light for the plants as I have bought some Hygrophila polysperma "Rosanervig, Alternanthera reineckii lilicina and ludwigia peruviana. My hood has 2 x 30w & 1 x 24w = 85w total, but as i stated is 32 watts worth bothering about 3x 39 = 117watts- or is 61watts overkill - 4 x 39 = 156watts - i could keep the same amount of tubes (4) but reduce the amount of wattage the tube give off by removing a tube - but that could induce a dead area for light or buy 4 x potentiometer from Maplins and add them to the hood which reduce the light levels . Fert dosing as per instruction EI, rest days Thursday & Friday, 50% water change on Saturday. I am also in the process of buy an Eheim 2080 to replace my Tetra Tec 1200 but I have been waiting 4 week for delivery, finally I have recieved a refund so I do not what to do next.

Option 1 -= stick with the 1200 and buy another to increase water circulation as I need 10x the turn over of water.
Option 2 = stick with the 1200 and add a power head, currenty I am running the 1200 + an aquaball 3 internal to improve circulation. 
Option 3 = Found another supplier for 2080 - buy it but do I need add a power head if I am going to increase my lighting do not want to be an algea farm.


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## Egmel (24 Feb 2009)

Flyfisherman said:
			
		

> I will have to buy tubes that are suitable for my tank requirements. As for Co2 usage or ppm levels I could not tell you as my chart does not state ppm - only colours - yellow = bad, blue is not enough. Mine are @ end of day 23:00 colour is lime green, @ start of day 13:00 its dark green.
> 
> I just want to add a bit more light for the plants as I have bought some Hygrophila polysperma "Rosanervig, Alternanthera reineckii lilicina and ludwigia peruviana. My hood has 2 x 30w & 1 x 24w = 85w total, but as i stated is 32 watts worth bothering about 3x 39 = 117watts- or is 61watts overkill - 4 x 39 = 156watts - i could keep the same amount of tubes (4) but reduce the amount of wattage the tube give off by removing a tube - but that could induce a dead area for light or buy 4 x potentiometer from Maplins and add them to the hood which reduce the light levels . Fert dosing as per instruction EI, rest days Thursday & Friday, 50% water change on Saturday.


Are your plants showing signs that they need more light or is it simply that you would like to upgrade.  If it's the former then I would personally aim for the 150w mark (you can't use potentiometers on most fluorescent ballasts so check before you implement that plan - however you can usually raise the lights away from the surface a bit more or only use some of the lamps).  If your plants aren't showing any signs of light deficiency and are all growing nice and compactly then I would probably leave it as is.  However I'm not an expert on these matters so I'd wait for some more input before making a decision!


> I am also in the process of buy an Eheim 2080 to replace my Tetra Tec 1200 but I have been waiting 4 week for delivery, finally I have recieved a refund so I do not what to do next.
> 
> Option 1 -= stick with the 1200 and buy another to increase water circulation as I need 10x the turn over of water.
> Option 2 = stick with the 1200 and add a power head, currenty I am running the 1200 + an aquaball 3 internal to improve circulation.
> Option 3 = Found another supplier for 2080 - buy it but do I need add a power head if I am going to increase my lighting do not want to be an algea farm.


Again I'm not an expert but...
The 2080 wont offer enough of a boost in circulation (1200lph -> 1700lph) to make it in any way comparable to the other options you state, if you feel you need more flow then this is not the option unless you add a power head alongside it.

Powerheads are a good option to increase flow, they're easier to position where you need them and if you buy the right one then you'll get more bang for your buck.  There are a lot of people raving about the koralia ones at the moment.

However they're not the prettiest of things and they do need to be in the tank so taking up precious scaping room!

So the questions you need to ask yourself are:
Does your current filter provide enough filtration? (yes - probably option 2 but 1 or 3 not out of limits, no - options 1 or 3)
Do you find the aesthetics of a powerhead displeasing (Yes - option 1, no - options 2 or 3)

Sorry to always respond with more questions, it's just the easiest way to help you decide what you need.


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (24 Feb 2009)

Egmel said:
			
		

> Flyfisherman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Egmel

My Hygrophila polysperma "Rosanervig" are still white / green they should change their colour due to the virus, Alternanthera reineckii lilicina are losing leafs Alternanthera specices lost their leafs and all I ended up with was a red stem - out they went.  I want to add some colour to the tank rather than just green plants - this is why I want to improve my lighting. 

As for the filter I like the 1200 but is a pain the clean out espically the inlet / outlet pipes and sometimes it leaks around the head unit, dependant on how you replace the head unit after cleaning. The aqua ball is solely in the tank for bacteria collection as it is going into a another tank i am setting up - small 20l tanks aqua mode. I thought about fitting an FX5 but it wont fit in my cupboard so the next best filter is the 2080 but it is a little bit short on my 10x turn over of water. If I increase my lighting to much I could increase the risk of algea - to reduce the risk increase the circulation, 2080 is not enough so add a powerhead as well. I have added a thread asking what the net affect will be if you have to much circulation.

I am stuck on what to do.
1. Want to improve lighting - but by how much.
2. Improve circulation / filtration 2080 + add powerhead to achieve 10x water turn over
3. Keep 1200 + add powerhead

I cannot get my head around the adding of a powerhead I always thought it would be better to have the majority of the water filtered rather than push non filtered or dirty water around the tank. I think to achieve my 10x turn or more I will have to add a powerhead - but If i change my lighting hood to a suspended type I then can fit a second set of pipe into the tank ie 2nd filter but I loose space within the cupboard, see the issues I have. I want to over engineer my set up but do not know which is the best engineering practise to carry out.

Regards
Paul.


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## Egmel (24 Feb 2009)

Flyfisherman said:
			
		

> My Hygrophila polysperma "Rosanervig" are still white / green they should change their colour due to the virus, Alternanthera reineckii lilicina are losing leafs Alternanthera specices lost their leafs and all I ended up with was a red stem - out they went.  I want to add some colour to the tank rather than just green plants - this is why I want to improve my lighting.


Ok so more lighting it is then.  Personally I'd go for the 156W luminaire, start off with 3 out of 4 bulbs and if you find you need/want the 4th then use that too.  The light distribution should be fine.



> As for the filter I like the 1200 but is a pain the clean out espically the inlet / outlet pipes and sometimes it leaks around the head unit, dependant on how you replace the head unit after cleaning.


The way you talk about the tetratec you don't seem happy with it so I wouldn't recommend getting another!



> I thought about fitting an FX5 but it wont fit in my cupboard so the next best filter is the 2080 but it is a little bit short on my 10x turn over of water. If I increase my lighting to much I could increase the risk of algea - to reduce the risk increase the circulation, 2080 is not enough so add a powerhead as well. I have added a thread asking what the net affect will be if you have to much circulation.


You can always upgrade the filter and if you find you have areas without enough flow then get the powerhead at a a later date.



> I cannot get my head around the adding of a powerhead I always thought it would be better to have the majority of the water filtered rather than push non filtered or dirty water around the tank.


The 10x is to improve the flow and therefore the nutrient distribution to the plants.  You can have the filtration the same as you would on a normal tank because there isn't any more waste to be got rid of, just a higher flow rate to be achieved.  So you're not pushing dirty water around the tank because your filter is keeping it clean, you're just stopping the dead spots which form in area of a normal tank.


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (24 Feb 2009)

Egmel said:
			
		

> Flyfisherman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Egmel

thx for the reply and you have confirmed that my thinking / reason for improvments are correct. I just wanted reassurance that I was thinking on the right line.

Thx again matey

Paul.
NB. Time to send some money.


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## ceg4048 (25 Feb 2009)

Flyfisherman said:
			
		

> My Hygrophila polysperma "Rosanervig" are still white / green they should change their colour due to the virus, Alternanthera reineckii lilicina are losing leafs Alternanthera specices lost their leafs and all I ended up with was a red stem - out they went.  I want to add some colour to the tank rather than just green plants - this is why I want to improve my lighting....


More light will never solve this problem :!: You need to add more CO2/flow....

Cheers,


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## Egmel (25 Feb 2009)

While I do agree with you Clive and I know that supercoley has done some tests on disproving the theories of low/high light plants.  I can't help but notice the improvements in my red leafed plants when I changed my lamps for fresh ones in my 2WPG 30G tank.  You do have to increase the nutrients and CO2 to keep up with your lighting, and we've already looked at increasing flow to go with the EI dosing that Paul's doing, but I think that the current lighting of 85w over 55USG is probably a little low for the plants he's trying to grow.

I am as I've stated many times though, no expert and I no that others have had good results with red plants in lower light conditions but I think for the average Joe Blogs to successfully grow what are commonly considered higher light plants it's important to have higher light levels.


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## GreenNeedle (25 Feb 2009)

People are learning not to assume so much in planted tanks these days.  Many people make a couple of changes and assume one of them made the difference when in fact it was something else.

You have added more light and therefore are assuming the light was the problem, however you increased CO2 and nutrients also!!!  Why rule these 2 out in favour of the light?

Much as this is theory this is the same as many other things.  Was it light, CO2 nutrients that solved the problem?  The only way to test is to reduce light and leave CO2 nutrients high.  If the result is good then it wasn't the light increase.  Then add the lights and reduce nutrients.  If the results are the same then it wasn't nutrients.  This leaves 1 thing 

It's not that I disagree with high/light low light as a rule.  I just cannot see that any plant requires more than 2WPG of good light on a standard sized tank. I agree some plants thrive under lower light and some plants need more light.  I just disagree with the suggestions of needing 4WPG in this day and age where even T8 tubes are much better than when they came out 2 or 3 decades ago!!!

As Dave Spencer and Clive have said Light is a problem until you reach a point where all you do is speed up growth and not provide any 'real' benefit.  Where this line is cannot be answered because each setup will have a different line but 2WPG is a good starting point.

I have had that Amano 'Fitch' article thrown at me quite a lot recently and then I am belittled for saying it means nothing!!!  It is 14 years old.  this is technology.  you cannot use 14 year old information because technology moves very fast even existing technology improves considerably year on year.  Also Amano DOES NOT use the amount of light in that article!!!  He has used much lower for years and freely admits it. 

AC


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (25 Feb 2009)

Guys

How will:
1. Increasing water flow
2. Add more Co2 levels
= assist in plant growth, 

I could understand if somebody stated that a lack of nutrients was an issues + low light levels.

Current plants
Alternanthera Reineckia Purple - according to plant ticket high light levels required - mine large holes in leafs remove leafs - left with stems only

I thought i had bought Hygrophila polysperma rosanervig what i have got is Hygrophila Rosae Australis - mine green / white (very top set of leafs have a hint of pale pink) is this correct.
Echinodorus Rubins - medium light - thrieving.
Hygrophila guanensis requires high light - so so tiny rust spot in lower leafs
Cryptocoryne 3 varieties low light - fine no problems 
Aponogeton crispus medium light - fine and flowering.

Did have plants
Alternanthera Species - intense light levels required - lost leafs red stems only - thrown out 
Alternanthera reineckia rosafolia - lost leafs red stems only - thrown out.
Any plants that require high to intense light I cannot keep

So: at what wpg is required to produce high / intense light levels.

Regards
Paul.

N.B Dennerle drop checker show green colour and I have added another checker "Red Sea" to confirm readings.


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## GreenNeedle (25 Feb 2009)

From reading the last post am I right in thinking you are using a 'yeast' setup on a 217Ltr tank?

I've read from the beginning and notice you have problems with Rosanervig staying green!!!  This is not a light issue.  Mine was turning pink and all leaves had white veins under 0.6WPG T8 back in the days when I was starting out!!!

I think you can see where I am leading  not to push too far but I still think this is basically a CO2 issue that is making your plants falter!!!

AC


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## ceg4048 (25 Feb 2009)

Hi Paul/Egmel,
                    Here is the deal: Plants must burn calories to survive in a similar way to which we do. Every cell must consume food in order to function. This food is a type of sugar. Sugar is a Carbohydrate. A Carbohydrate means "hydrate" of carbon, essentially this means a carbon/water compound. Starch, sugar and even cellulose are all hydrated Carbon molecules. About 40% of of a plants dry weight is  Carbon. That's why when you burn wood the residual is a black charcoal which is carbon.

So the essence of a plant is Carbon. Plants produce their own food for survival which is a sugar. In order to just survive they must produce _at least_ as much sugar as they burn. If they produce more sugar than they consume the extra sugar can be converted to building blocks for growth. If the plant produce less sugar than it burns the very structure of the plant will disintegrate as it desperately consumes itself by sacrificing leaves then stems.

For this reason, when a plant decays, when leaves shed and when holes appear this is a signal that less sugar is being produce than can be consumed. The plant must jettison components that consume food or must convert carbon rich components to consume them.

Light drives the plant to consume carbon as well as to produce more carbon for growth. If the light is higher than the amount of available carbon then consumption will be higher than production. When carbon consumption exactly equals carbon production this is called the Light Compensation Point (LCP). Each plant has a different LCP. One reason is that some plants are better are collecting carbon than others.

Now, yes, if the light is too low then the sugar production suffers and thats how the plant dies from carbon starvation. But likewise, if the carbon uptake is too low then sugar can't be produced and carbon starvation occurs. So one has to solve the riddle of whether light is too low or whether carbon is too low. The difference in your troubleshooting is that if you add more light you are forced to add even more carbon because more light drives more carbon demand. But if you add more carbon you don't necessarily have to add more light. That's why first increasing carbon addition is a better troubleshooting technique than increasing the light.

The plants you list as "medium light" are actually medium carbon collectors. The plants you list as "low light" are excellent carbon collectors and the plants you list as "high light" are poor carbon collectors.

For any of these plants higher light simply drives them to grow faster assuming that there is a commensurate increase in available CO2.

Having a green dropchecker does not automatically mean that the carbon levels are optimal for every species in the tank. For the poor carbon collectors you'll need to be closer to yellow. Here is a tip off:



> ...As for Co2 usage or ppm levels I could not tell you as my chart does not state ppm - only colours - yellow = bad, blue is not enough. Mine are @ end of day 23:00 colour is lime green, @ start of day 13:00 its dark green...


If 4dkH water is not being used in the dropchecker then dark green is actually blue. If there is 4dkH water then it needs to be lime green when the lights go on by turning on the gas much earlier. I would fix this problem first, then worry about adding more light.

As nutrients and CO2 are consumed in the small area surrounding the leaves the nutrients must be replaced so that the plant can continually feed. If the water is flowing properly around the vicinity of the leaf then the consumed nutrients and CO2 are constantly being replaced so that the leaf does not run short.

So while it is certainly a possibility that the lighting level is below the LCP for these plants it is also clear that CO2 is sub par. If after optimizing the CO2 the plants do not recover then you'll know that the lighting is too low, but again, one should fix CO2 first, then worry about light. People gloss over the CO2 issue all the time and I wish I had a quid for every time someone said "but my CO2 is perfect"...

Cheers,


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (25 Feb 2009)

Clive 

Since i have add the second filter Aqua ball (mainly to get it ready for my second tank Aquamode 300) some algea has appeared on some leaves noticed it today This points to lack of co2 does it?.

I have some easycarbon should I increase the dosage - I am adding 20ml when I remember too. 

I am going to get some 4dkh solution at the weekend.

Regards
Paul.


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## ceg4048 (26 Feb 2009)

Only if the species of algae is CO2 related. If it's Hair, BBA, Staghorn and sometimes possibly GSA, then yes, this point to a CO2 deficiency/stability issue.

So you'll have to identify the algae for us to tell. Always specify the type of algae if you can because the _type_ is related to the _cause_. Have you compared what you have with whats on JamesC's Algae Guide? If it is one of these I just listed then increase the injection rate. Adding more EasyCarbo will also help if it's one of these.

Also, just to clear, don't draw a correlation between the appearance of algae and the fact that you've added the second filter. It would be very easy for the uninitiated to conclude: "Aha...look, he added more flow and got algae! - therefore, higher flow causes algae!"  

Can you now see that the expression "Optimum Lighting" is completely absurd and irrelevant? That's because it's seemingly always discussed outside of the context of CO2. So that's like discussing beans without thinking about toast, or like discussing the virtue of Yorkshire Pudding without considering roast beef. Where would Neo be without Morpheus?

High light+high CO2=>high growth rates. Low light+low CO2=>low growth rates. "Optimum" is illusionary.

Cheers,

P.S Where would Cleopatra be without Marc Anthony?
Your friend, "Optimus Maximus"


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (26 Feb 2009)

Clive
Its looks like BBA - my reasons for my quote was by increasing the circulation would use up more co2 - my co2 indicator is a darker shade of green than usual, all this has happen since a put the aqua ball in. I am right in thinking than increasing the circulation reduces the volume of Co2 held in the water - so if you increase the flow the co2 has to be increased as well. 

My 2080 is on its way - should be here in the uk on  Tuesday comming from Cupar in Scotland about 100 miles from where I am now Glasgow.

Regards
Paul 
N.B Mind my asp.


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## ceg4048 (27 Feb 2009)

No, circulation does not dissipate the CO2. Splashing the surface would do that but increased movement around the tank won't. Moving more water around the tank brings low CO2 areas into contact with the dropchecker as well as mixing low CO2 water with higher CO2 water. The result is that you see an average CO2 content of the mixed water. If the dropchecker goes dark then you know that the average of the mixed water is low so you should add more CO2. It's entirely possible that when you had poor circulation the dropchecker was exposed only the segment of the water that held a higher CO2 level, while the rest of the water had lower saturation. I call this "Stage I Illusion" due to dropchecker hypnosis. You must observe the plants. They are the real dropchecker. When you see CO2 related algae you must immediately stop believing the dropchecker because it's only one rudimentary indicator. This is why when someone says;  "I have BBA/Hair/Staghorn but my CO2 is fine because my dropchecker is green" then I conclude immediately that their CO2 is NOT fine. Dropcheckers lie. BBA never lies...

CO2 concentration is never equal across the tank. It will be high in some areas, medium in others and will be low in yet others. In the same way the water nearest the heater is warmer than the water in areas furthest from the heater. Imagine shutting off the filter so that there is no water movement. The difference between the warmest areas and the coolest areas would be stark. More flow helps to create a more even distribution by mixing warmer with cooler to even things out. CO2 concentration and nutrient concentration are affected in exactly the same way.

You need to turn on the CO2 earlier and you need to inject a higher rate so that by the time the lights go on you will have achieved better mixing and better average concentration levels. _Ideally_, the dropchecker should be lime green at lights on and your plants should begin to pearl within an hour or two of lights on. This is how to keep BBA and other CO2 related algae suppressed. Adding liquid carbon reduces the pressure to add so much gas so if you have sensitive fish Excel/Easycarbo can help to supplement the Carbon consumption and to lower toxicity issues.

Hope this helps.  

Cheers,


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (27 Feb 2009)

That what I was trying to say - I new what I wanted to say but it puting in the right context so people understand what you are trying to say.

Regards

paul.

Thx mate Co2 levels going up this weekend.


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