# 6+ dead shrimp at once....



## jack-rythm (3 Dec 2012)

I bought some cherries and they arrived last tuesday.. I go to london on saturday and get back last night and I find 6 dead shrimp just bobbing around in my tank.. I have no idea why this is.. The tank has been cycling for 6+ week with no fish or shrimp in. I have EBI shrimp substrate, I ADA amazonia substrate.. I bet there are more dead too. I can see others that are alive but on their last legs, not moving etc.. Anyone got any ideas??? What the hell has gone wrong?


----------



## Dan Crawford (3 Dec 2012)

Sorry to hear that Jack, too much CO2 would be my first guess...


----------



## jack-rythm (3 Dec 2012)

its a low tech dan so no co2?


----------



## Dan Crawford (3 Dec 2012)

hmm, temperature maybe? Small tanks are susceptible to massive temperature swings as the room temp drops.


----------



## jack-rythm (3 Dec 2012)

I have no heater in any of the tanks.. you saying maybe at night it drops too low? I assumed shrimp were quite fine in lower temps? I have not noticed it drop below 17 at night? this could be it..? I have just done months and months of planning getting substrates, rock etc bang on for shrimp. I was going to get my black bees but thought I would buy some cherries for a start point..


----------



## Dan Crawford (3 Dec 2012)

I'm certainly no shrimp expert but 17 sounds low to me, I wouldn't/couldn't keep fish that cold, they are tropical creatures after all.

You've done your research, got the right substrate, the right rocks etc which is commendable, more than a lot of people do. Have you tested the water for Ammonia etc? Most test kits are pretty inaccurate but if something is way wrong then they'll give you an idea of what going on in there.


----------



## jack-rythm (3 Dec 2012)

I dont have fish in my tanks, just shrimp so thats why I have not bothered with temps, as for ammonia kits, no I have never bought them as I never trust them.. I bought my plants from the far east.. I ran a carbon pad in my filter for 48 hours to clear off pesticides.. maybe this wasn't long enough? Ill see if I can borrow a ammonia kit maybe?


----------



## Stu Worrall (3 Dec 2012)

how long have the plants been in the tank?  theres been a few threads on over the last year where far east plants are wiping out shrimp due to the pesticides which will still be present after a carbon pad.


----------



## jack-rythm (3 Dec 2012)

I have had theplants in there for about 4-5 weeks now, ran the carbon pad for about 2-3 days about 2 weeks ago..?


----------



## jack-rythm (3 Dec 2012)

And to find 6 dead and more probs, all at once? something has gone wrong here


----------



## Gary Nelson (3 Dec 2012)

How did you cycle the tank? I would deffo do a test on the water and I would guess that you have had a sudden spike of ammonia or nitrites 
Failing that did you acclimatise them slow? Shrimp can tolerate a cooler temperature, but it really should be dropped very gradual... From 24-17 in a week or so.


----------



## jack-rythm (3 Dec 2012)

Ive never had a heater so temps have always hovered between 17-21 and ver dropped suddenly.. but its winter now so maybe. I acclimatised over a 3-4 hour period of dripping as suggested by ady. I have had the tank cycling with no fauna just plants for 5-6 weeks and got others opinions and we agreed it was ready.. Im starting to think although I used carbon pads for 2-3 days, the plants I bought from the far east may of bought pesticides with them.. or its the fluval shrimp safe im using.. I heard it may contain copper.. Bu this is a rumour.


----------



## basil (3 Dec 2012)

Dah, real shame sorry to hear this. Read on another thread somewhere in this forum recently about small tanks without heaters. Always best to have a heater IMO, even if it's set to come on at 20 degrees. Especially with small tanks, it just stops that big temp swing if we have a cold snap. Stability is king with shrimp.


----------



## NatureBoy (3 Dec 2012)

There's been plenty reported about the pesticides used on Asian plant imports, I reckon that would be your culprit for such an extensive and sudden demise. Check out this link...http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/c ... p?sid=4831


----------



## BigTom (3 Dec 2012)

NatureBoy said:
			
		

> There's been plenty reported about the pesticides used on Asian plant imports, I reckon that would be your culprit for such an extensive and sudden demise. Check out this link...http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/c ... p?sid=4831



I doubt they would have lasted from Tuesday if that stuff was the culprit. I've seen it in action and you're talking minutes or hours til death, not days. Doesn't exclude some other toxins on the plants of course, but it could be something less obvious.


----------



## jack-rythm (3 Dec 2012)

yes thanks, I was singing toward the pesticides, but I have at least 10 that seem fine.. and it was been a week now.. I have been using fluval shrimp safe and I know its a shot in the dark but its either pesticides, temp or fluval shrimp safe. Ill throw a heater in it, throw a carbon pad in it and not use the shrimp safe for a couple weeks. see if that does anything... if it is the heater ill be annoyed.. as I have 3 nanos and the whole thing will be ruined if I then have to put small ugly internal heaters inside... such a shame.. such disappointment. Only time will tell. Thanks for the link NatureBoy.

Jack


----------



## Radik (3 Dec 2012)

Tanks without heaters are fine for Caridinas, CRS, Tigers etc can go low as 16 shorterm, they do well 18. 
For neocaridinas this range is way too low, Lowest would be 19-20 better higher 22.

When this happens all at once the only reason is water quality or parameters went too off scale. So either too much temperature drop or some poisoning. Let's say we can rule out bacterial infection if bodies were pink and not white and dissolving, also with bacterial disease you have dead one by one not so many at once.


----------



## Radik (3 Dec 2012)

Also with poisoning or pesticides you will see shrimp on their back and kicking if still alive


----------



## jack-rythm (3 Dec 2012)

reading your link suggests its not that, as they are not pink but just dead. and has not happened instantly.. although I assume there are many different types of death caused by this..


----------



## NatureBoy (3 Dec 2012)

sorry misread - hadn't understood there was a longer time period between introduction and death...


----------



## jack-rythm (3 Dec 2012)

no problem buddy, its a mystery.. I have done so much prep to make this work too. a lot of money was invested. Im looking at this as a positive. I get this sorted and I can venture onto nicer shrimp .. but for the mean time im  !


----------



## basil (3 Dec 2012)

jack-rythm said:
			
		

> no problem buddy, its a mystery.. I have done so much prep to make this work too. a lot of money was invested. Im looking at this as a positive. I get this sorted and I can venture onto nicer shrimp .. but for the mean time im  !



That's the spirit matey! Disappointing, but you just gotta put it behind you and get back on  

I lost a colony of snowball shrimp years ago from pesticide on plants. I was gutted, but the enthusiasm was quickly rekindled. 

Another loss story I always remind myself of when things ain't going well is a forum member who lost a colony of about 200 PRL crs when his young daughter poured a bottle of perfume into the tank! Still makes me chuckle that one, but must have been devastating for  him at the time!!


----------



## tim (3 Dec 2012)

How much excel are you dosing mate I've had a couple of bad experiences with shrimp and liquid carbon overdosing just another possibility mate


----------



## AlanTh (3 Dec 2012)

jack-rythm said:
			
		

> The tank has been cycling for 6+ week with no fish or shrimp in.



Did you use an ammonia source to get the cycle underway?  

Without a test kit how did you know when the cycle had completed?  I think it could well be that the tank hadn't cycled.


----------



## basil (3 Dec 2012)

AlanTh said:
			
		

> jack-rythm said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Cue Ceg on test kits are useless lesson.......!!


----------



## Gary Nelson (3 Dec 2012)

basil said:
			
		

> AlanTh said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




They maybe useless, but on a complete new setup that was cycled without livestock I would of definitely done an ammonia and nitrite test to give some sort of indication.... On a cycled tank, the best test is to look at life stock and behaviours, they will tell you all you need to know.


----------



## jack-rythm (3 Dec 2012)

I had a few fish, 3 Danios in each. I knew it had cycles because 6 weeks is a positive time, I had a full planted tank from the word go. I feel rest kits are useless. I can determine my tank set up roughly using the plants and fauna. But I see where your coming from. In my opinion it had nothing to do with ammonia it nitrite. I feel Tim maybe onto something here.. I dose excel quite heavily and another friend said this too me today too.. So maybe this is an answer of many. As of now the tank has been running for about 7 weeks probably. So after assessing things I think it's either overdosing excel or sudden drop in temps at night possibly.. 

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside (3 Dec 2012)

If your dosing excell, I could put £100 on it being that. Shrimp tend to have a ridiculous intolerance to liquid carbon products.


----------



## jack-rythm (4 Dec 2012)

Cheers Whitey. Water change it is. 

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside (4 Dec 2012)

Hey jack, 
In regards to carbon, your best bet with shrimp I've found is without doubt co2 injection. I know it's expensive to setup, and could prove a little bit like spinning plates with your triptych setup.

If I were you, cost permitting of course(which i have a great understanding of being tied, with being an apprentice) I'd set up a JBL or Up aqua co2 system (from one of our sponsors Tankscape and try to devise a way of balancing the co2 distribution with the 3 tanks.

I know ADA do an inline adjustable valve, which would be your best bet. Check TGM, I believe they have a cheaper alternative aswell.

I never dose liquid carbon with shrimp, I tend to kill them off quickly otherwise 

Cheers,


----------



## jack-rythm (4 Dec 2012)

Sweet cheers Mate.. Even cheaper would be diy FE set up with triple valve needles and solenoid etc. what u tink?

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside (4 Dec 2012)

That would be spot on mate, yeah.


----------



## Ady34 (4 Dec 2012)

Hi Jack,
Sorry to hear about the shrimp mate.
Just to give an alternative thought, I dose liquid carbon in my CR shrimp tank and they are happy enough to breed. I only dose 1ml per day in a 50l tank which I think is around the recommended dosage for easy carbo. To regulate this lean dosing I simply run less light so the demand for carbon is reduced. For sure growth is slow but I have happy shrimp and a tank full of plants too.
I'm guessing you may be double or even triple dosing your liquid carbon so maybe you could reduce this down and reduce lighting intensity to compensate......just a thought, may save lashing out on a co2 kit which in itself offers up more complication and potential danger.
If your not overdosing liquid carbon then I doubt this is the cause of your sudden shrimp fatalities.
Cheerio
Ady


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside (4 Dec 2012)

Ady34 said:
			
		

> Hi Jack,
> Sorry to hear about the shrimp mate.
> Just to give an alternative thought, I dose liquid carbon in my CR shrimp tank and they are happy enough to breed. I only dose 1ml per day in a 50l tank which I think is around the recommended dosage for easy carbo. To regulate this lean dosing I simply run less light so the demand for carbon is reduced. For sure growth is slow but I have happy shrimp and a tank full of plants too.
> I'm guessing you may be double or even triple dosing your liquid carbon so maybe you could reduce this down and reduce lighting intensity to compensate......just a thought, may save lashing out on a co2 kit which in itself offers up more complication and potential danger.
> ...



I forgot about your Liquid carbon dosing Ady! Thats good you can, normally they have an intolerance to it. And there's no arguing your tank is healthy and your inhabitants happy.

I wouldn't use LC in mine though, I think the stuff has more potential to be lethal than a careful, well managed co2 regime.** I use no Co2 in my CRS tank, just airline to increase oxygen content of water** Drop checkers can be used to indicate co2 content as you know, but not liquid carbon products. 

I would also say that if the cherries came from a none Liquid carbon enriched tank, that they would need slow acclimatisation to the LC over a period of days.

Cheers,


----------



## Ady34 (4 Dec 2012)

Its a fair point Nath, but Jack has a mix of plants in his tanks that probably require some form of carbon. Gas is obviously achievable but it wouldnt take a lot on such a small volume of water to have serious consequenses, the margin for error would be tiny. 
Regards the cherries origin....even if not from liquid carbon dosed tanks, if it was this that saw them off would it not have occurred sooner as surely Jack will have been dosing every day?
I think on very small tanks its easier to manage dosing of a liquid product as you draw off the amount you need before going anywhere near the tank....that said its all down to user competance either way, so if using gas extra care would no doubt be used.
Cheerio,


----------



## Ady34 (4 Dec 2012)

carrying on from that, i dont know how fast lc does kill shrimp if overdosed, but id imagine it would be quick given their sensitivity, and it would effect all of them so perhaps this indicates its not down to the liquid carbon and maybe something else?

As a side, how big are the tanks Jack, and how many shrimp did you introduce at once? I know they add little bio load, but have you been feeding them also?


----------



## jack-rythm (4 Dec 2012)

I introduced 20 cherries to one tank. 3-4 hours acclimatising. I was dosing 6ml a week easy (maybe 2ce that over the days) as I had no fish just plants. The cubes are 27l cubes so small. I have looked today and another 4 have died. im close to loosing them all.. it makes sense because when i got back from being in london for a couple days I dosed more excel and 12 hours later is when i noticed the fatalities. Please note I was unaware that this would harm the shrimp.. I know that I cannot overdose on excel unless its a considerable amount so took this knowledge and dosed a lot for the benefit of my lighting and fish-less tank set up. So it seems that could be the issue.. The fact that the tanks could potentially be low-tech tanks, not needing anything at all, maybe NPK once a week has irritated me even more.. because I know I caused something that could of been avoided.. but I was completely unaware it had effects on shrimp.. especially cherry shrimp. what do you suggest I do? I can only do what I can to save the others but Im going to do 50% water changes every day for a fair few days, stick a carbon pad in my filter for the week and hope that sorts it out. ADDING NO EXCEL might i add.. just sticking to my NPK schedule.. what do you think?


----------



## jack-rythm (4 Dec 2012)

I introduced 20 cherries to one tank. 3-4 hours acclimatising. I was dosing 6ml a week easy (maybe 2ce that over the days) as I had no fish just plants. The cubes are 27l cubes so small. I have looked today and another 4 have died. im close to loosing them all.. it makes sense because when i got back from being in london for a couple days I dosed more excel and 12 hours later is when i noticed the fatalities. Please note I was unaware that this would harm the shrimp.. I know that I cannot overdose on excel unless its a considerable amount so took this knowledge and dosed a lot for the benefit of my lighting and fish-less tank set up. So it seems that could be the issue.. The fact that the tanks could potentially be low-tech tanks, not needing anything at all, maybe NPK once a week has irritated me even more.. because I know I caused something that could of been avoided.. but I was completely unaware it had effects on shrimp.. especially cherry shrimp. what do you suggest I do? I can only do what I can to save the others but Im going to do 50% water changes every day for a fair few days, stick a carbon pad in my filter for the week and hope that sorts it out. ADDING NO EXCEL might i add.. just sticking to my NPK schedule.. what do you think?


----------



## Iain Sutherland (4 Dec 2012)

Hey Jack, sorry to hear you are having shrimp issues, it sucks when it happens but on the up side it happened before you got the tigers and CBS in which would have been painful to your pocket!!  
As Radik has said this is likely to be water quality for them to die in batches like this.  I dont think that LC is likely to blame as cherries are pretty resilient, i was triple dosing my 300ltr for a long time with a healthy rcs population.  Saying that its very easy to massively overdose in nanos.  I would have also expected to see your riccia melting if you had overdosed so much to effect the shrimp as it too doesnt like LC.
Not sure on all the plants you have in the tanks but mostly looks like moss, riccia and hairgrass all of which will do fine in low tech.  Personally i would lift your lighting a bit and dont worry about dosing ferts unless you see a deficiency, my shrimp nano hasnt been dosed in months with no ill effect at all as yet and just 10% WC every 2 weeks with re mineralised RO.
I was certainly surprised how well my plants have done with little or no intervention, we talk about high ferts, lower light and big water changes all the time but when it comes to shrimp most advise seems to be less is more.
I'd also advise having inline heaters once you get your externals, shrimp do seem to be quite prone to temp fluctuations.

Im sure you will have 3 lovely shrimp tanks in no time.


----------



## gmartins (4 Dec 2012)

I have had cherries at 14ºC with no problems and people here in the Azores even keep them in outdoor tanks the whole year so low temp is not a problem IME.

However, Excel can kill shrimp. I used to dose 0.5 ml in a 10L tank with no problems for red cherry (growing and reproducing). Try a lower dosing of excel may be better?

cheers

GM


----------



## jack-rythm (4 Dec 2012)

thanks for all your responses guys, some very interesting points for me to assess and look at. Im not going down the external heater route as I simply cannot afford it. I believe my temps are atable enough, I dont think they drop dramatically but I may drop 3 cheap 25w heaters in just for the winter to be safe. I cant raise my light but if you read my journal I have taken 2 bulbs out so Im running just one 24w t5. so light doesn't seem to be an issue. I agree i should give the fertz a break. My riccia is not melting but I never realised it could? I have had riccia for almost a year and have been pouring the stuff in as I can get 250ml bottles of flourish excel for about 5 quid  obviously I have been to hasty, so lesson learnt... 

All I can do now is thank you guys and see what happens. after all thy are cherries so im pleased I didn't order tigers and CBS all at once, at least i was wise in that department! I agree that having a nano immediately makes things a lot more fragile so although others think it may not be the excel im willing to agree that it is. Only on the basis I have the tank here and I can see changes etc. I have had a 110l tank and done the same, no issues. so it must be down to the size of the tanks. Im planning on moving the tanks to my office to allow me to get some shelving units for me to hang my lighting on, then I can put back the nice white bulbs and make it a little more pleasing on the eye.


----------



## BigTom (4 Dec 2012)

Jack, I can recommend these heaters - http://orinoco-aquatics.co.uk/index.php ... ucts_id=49

Cheap, unobtrusive and keep my 25l cubes at around 22-23 degrees.


----------



## tim (4 Dec 2012)

Just my two cents so to speak I've wiped out a couple of hundred quids worth of high grade crs with liquid carbon before I discovered this forum took me a long time to realise it couldn't have been anything else far too easy to overdose in small tanks jack if u dose the excel via the manufacturers recommended dose I personally don't think you'll go far wrong but personally I have had more success keeping shrimp with gas co2 rather than liquid products whichever path you choose good luck mate


----------



## jack-rythm (4 Dec 2012)

Thanks tom, thanks Tim   great support lads  

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## jack-rythm (4 Dec 2012)

Those heaters look didley. Cheers tom

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## AlanTh (4 Dec 2012)

Using Danios to cycle a tank that is to be stocked with shrimp is, I think, a risky proposition.  They are very hardy fish.  Shrimp aren't.

No checks at all on ammonia or nitrite?


----------



## jack-rythm (5 Dec 2012)

Thanks for your comment   although Cherry shrimp like Danios are usually very Hardy indeed. Also with fauna they are not affected by quantities of NPK or LC. Unless hugely hugely dosed. Cycling the tank IMO is a different factor to the over dosing I have been doing toward the shrimp. I chose cherries to start as these are very very durable. Some say bomb proof. But not jack proof   as for ammonia and nitrites, my levels seem fine. The effects on the shrimp are ones not like ammonia or nitrite poisoning, and my fish are also fine. I wouldn't waste money on test kits personally as I have never needed one and believe they give the wrong readings, leading onto all sorts of unrelated issues. But this is for another post lol

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## basil (7 Dec 2012)

Must be something in the air - I've lost 7 yellow fires in this last week! I've had the colony for 4 years without any issues too. What's really weird is the same tank houses over 200 crystals and they've all been fine. I suspect it's because their immune systems perhaps a little low as I try to keep the tank suitable for crystals without thinking too much about the yellows. Strange though!


----------



## jack-rythm (7 Dec 2012)

ahh basil! sorry to hear mate! maybe its the dead shrimp season.. im not going to bother with getting more till after the new year now, going to focus on my filtration and quit using LC. back to basics until Im sure this time


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside (7 Dec 2012)

I was killing off Cherries at a genocidal rate a couple of months ago. I maybe was hitting the tank with too much Macro nutrient. I don't know.


----------



## jack-rythm (7 Dec 2012)

I dont think NPK can effect shrimp can it? I thought it was just down to liquid carbon? I may be rong Nath but I think I remember having a talk with bigtom about dosing NPK and whether it effected critters in the tank, he came to the conclusion it didn't... but then again this was toward fish, I dont know about shrimp.. I assumed LC was ok but I was wrong there also.


----------



## BigTom (7 Dec 2012)

jack-rythm said:
			
		

> I dont think NPK can effect shrimp can it? I thought it was just down to liquid carbon? I may be rong Nath but I think I remember having a talk with bigtom about dosing NPK and whether it effected critters in the tank, he came to the conclusion it didn't... but then again this was toward fish, I dont know about shrimp.. I assumed LC was ok but I was wrong there also.



Don't think that was me Jack, I barely dose anything in my tanks so wouldn't like to comment.


----------



## jack-rythm (7 Dec 2012)

hahaha may of been tim! my baD!


----------



## jack-rythm (7 Dec 2012)

I cant find the link guys, I was trying t look but it was so long ago


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside (7 Dec 2012)

I think too much nitrate will, won't it?


----------



## jack-rythm (7 Dec 2012)

no wouldn't imagine nitrate would effect a lot.. unless you meant nitrite? this possibly would?


----------



## basil (7 Dec 2012)

I'll go and take my frustration out on some trout this weekend..........grrrrrr!!


----------



## Lindy (3 Jan 2013)

You can get a pouch for your filter thet removes copper, just for future reference. I think Seachem do them but sure you can google it.


----------



## Lindy (3 Jan 2013)

Sorry I should have said the pesticides contain copper and I'm not sure the carbon pads remove it. I use mine every time I introduce new plants or moss.


----------



## ryan001 (27 Feb 2013)

Hi all, first post so go easy on me! I added a few plants on Saturday morning that my sister had given to me (came in from far east). these had been soaked for over a week and then added to my tank. within an 1-2hours all of my RCS were dead or dying, pink, on side with a inverted curvature of their back, some still kicked for a short while, put them in an aerated 2nd tank with fresh treated water i was using to spur on some Riccia.

My opinion is that some nasty lingering pesticides were used on the plants and caused the mass die off on my RCS.I have carried out a 30% wc every 2days since, turned up the heat a bit, added carbon to external canister and increased the light. reading from an earlier thread this can help speed up the breakdown of some of the chemicals. Is there an easy way to know when the coast is clear to add shrimp again? about half were all saddled and hoped they would breed, but the die off obviously put pay to that.

Any advice?

Ryan


----------



## BigTom (27 Feb 2013)

ryan001 said:


> Hi all, first post so go easy on me! I added a few plants on Saturday morning that my sister had given to me (came in from far east). these had been soaked for over a week and then added to my tank. within an 1-2hours all of my RCS were dead or dying, pink, on side with a inverted curvature of their back, some still kicked for a short while, put them in an aerated 2nd tank with fresh treated water i was using to spur on some Riccia.
> 
> My opinion is that some nasty lingering pesticides were used on the plants and caused the mass die off on my RCS.I have carried out a 30% wc every 2days since, turned up the heat a bit, added carbon to external canister and increased the light. reading from an earlier thread this can help speed up the breakdown of some of the chemicals. Is there an easy way to know when the coast is clear to add shrimp again? about half were all saddled and hoped they would breed, but the die off obviously put pay to that.
> 
> ...


 
Hi Ryan.

Really sorry to hear that, I;ve been through the same thing myself.

There's a very informative thread here from a few months ago where we discussed this in depth - Wipe Out | Page 6 | UK Aquatic Plant Society

I would be doing repeated 100% water changes, and running as much absorbtive media as possible (carbon, purigen, cuprisorb, polyfilter, whatever you can get). That's what I did when it happened to me and eventually got the tank safe again.

When you're ready to test the waters there's not much you can do except put in a test subject... you could try with other inverts like daphnia and snails first but at some point you'll need to put a shrimp in. Good news is the symptoms come on very quickly and are extremely obvious, so if it still toxic you can net him out again straight away.


----------

