# Diy spray bar! I need help!



## MikeJojo (15 Jul 2014)

Hi

Question is simple but it drives me absolutely mad. I made 4 acrylic spray bars so far. I drilled holes by hand in two of them and using drill stand in last two. All of them have streams of water going sideway. Water goes sideway from every hole at the same angle. 

Please is someone here able to explain me what to do so it streams straight?

Mike 


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## Communitytank (15 Jul 2014)

Could it be the burr in the middle of the spray bar?
Just a suggestion as I have never made a DIY spray bar myself.


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## Andy Thurston (15 Jul 2014)

I wouldn't worry about it unless it's causing flow problems
My eheim spraybar does this. Its because of the flow in the spraybar. Burrs can make the water come out at a different angle but if there all spraying in the same direction then i would say its the flow causing it and not the burrs
Is it spraying towards the closed end of the spraybar?
You could try drilling the holes at an angle, it might help but I dont think it will make much, if any difference
My friend made an acrylic spraybar but i didn't pay much attention to the angle, only to see if he'd drilled all the holes inline.


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## MikeJojo (15 Jul 2014)

Big clown, yes they all at angle towards closed end. I don't know if that will cause any flow issue/ algae but I want to get it right. 

Mike


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (15 Jul 2014)

Its the angle of the drill when you drilled it. Make sure the drill is vertical and the holes are on top that your drilling.

 I also heated the drill bit before each hole, which means it melts the plastic and doesnt slip on the outside of the spraybar, aswell as preventing a burr on the inside.


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## MikeJojo (15 Jul 2014)

Nathaniel, I used drill stand.


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## Andy Thurston (15 Jul 2014)

Using a sharp drill bit and the right speed and feed will stop the burr and the need for 


> I also heated the drill bit before each hole, which means it melts the plastic and doesnt slip on the outside of the spraybar, aswell as preventing a burr on the inside.


Did it help?


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## MikeJojo (15 Jul 2014)

I used brand new drill at high speed and drilled in absolute slow motion. Can't see any burrs.


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## NC10 (15 Jul 2014)

Did you work out the hole size you needed in regards to the input, or just randomly choose a hole/drill size?


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (15 Jul 2014)

MikeJojo said:


> Nathaniel, I used drill stand.



Are you certain you had it centred then? Off centre even a  millimetre would cause jets at funny angles.


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (15 Jul 2014)

Big clown said:


> Using a sharp drill bit and the right speed and feed will stop the burr and the need for
> 
> Did it help?



I used a spanking drill bit too 
Yeah seemed to do the trick. I was hoping any burr created, would melt back into the plastic.


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## MikeJojo (15 Jul 2014)

NC10 said:


> Did you work out the hole size you needed in regards to the input, or just randomly choose a hole/drill size?



I calculated hole size and ended up with area of all holes at 92% of hose's area.



Nathaniel Whiteside said:


> Are you certain you had it centred then? Off centre even a  millimetre would cause jets at funny angles.



I did my best but would it cause angled stream? It certainly would only stream higher or lower than other holes, right?


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## NC10 (15 Jul 2014)

MikeJojo said:


> I calculated hole size and ended up with area of all holes at 92% of hose's area.





Do you have more tube left? If there are no burrs, correct area and you're convinced they're lined up, I suppose the only thing you can do is give it another go if you want it perfect....but then again you have tried 4 times already??

It's got to be something simple though. I made mine with an old bit using a regular hand held drill and no problems at all. Did you draw a line down the centre of the bar to make sure they're lined up?


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## MikeJojo (15 Jul 2014)

NC10 said:


> Do you have more tube left? If there are no burrs, correct area and you're convinced they're lined up, I suppose the only thing you can do is give it another go if you want it perfect....but then again you have tried 4 times already??
> 
> It's got to be something simple though. Did you draw a line down the centre of the bar to make sure they're lined up?



I have one new left and previous spray bar as well. 4 times where only two using drill stand. I did not draw a line and done it by eye. Still does it really matter if one holes is higher than another if you look at the bar ? Not trying to be smart it just streams are angled to the left not up or down...  They all angled the same and to be honest when i looked at them they are not all lined up perfectly.

If you wonder if size of the holes causes it hence pressure in spray bar I must say they were at the same angle when I tried bar in bath. Pressure was much lower there.

Still wonder what causes it? [DOUBLEPOST=1405449859][/DOUBLEPOST]





MikeJojo said:


> ..I did not draw a line and done it by eye..



Exactly what I've done is I marked line every 4cm on bar and then crossed those looking at the bar from one end kind of like when you shot a rifle way


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## NC10 (15 Jul 2014)

I don't know how to describe it really, but the more you drill off centre, the more you're drilling into the side walls of the bar (looking down on it) so surely this will alter flow and the size of the originally intended hole. The lower pressure is obviously just hiding any flaws. 

If I were you, I'd just do exactly what you've done before using the pillar drill/stand BUT don't use your eyes  

First just draw a line down dead centre and then there's no guess work or random judging involved. All I did was place the bar up against a wall and run a Sharpie (marker pen) down the length. I'm sure there are more technical ways if you have a vice or something but I have limited tools 

Also see if you can get better than 92%, just so you can rule that out at the same time. One less or one more hole at a different size bit may do it, just try a few more combos anyway. 

5th time lucky


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## MikeJojo (15 Jul 2014)

NC10 said:


> If I were you, I'd just do exactly what you've done before using the pillar drill/stand BUT don't use your eyes



Won't use it next time, maybe only for looking after what I'm doing.  In fact having spray bar in aquarium I'll take time, a lot time doing next one. No cutting corners. 



NC10 said:


> Also see if you can get better than 92%, just so you can rule that out at the same time. One less or one more hole at a different size bit may do it, just try a few more combos anyway.
> 
> 5th time lucky



Are you saying to match area of the hose? ceg4048 mentioned somewhere if I remember properly it's good to achieve about 80% of hose area.


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## parotet (15 Jul 2014)

Maybe a stupid question... You mentioned that you used a stand, but did you fix the spraybar? I didn't use a column but I fixed very well the spraybar. Also used a small driller, helps a lot. Also made the holes much smaller than needed and end them by hand, maybe it helps to correct any visible mistake.
Anyway each jet of my spraybar has a slight different direction. I want them to hit the front glass, then the flow moves downwards without any possible control. I wouldn't worry too much as long as you see a more or less uniform rippling on the water surface.

Jordi


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## MikeJojo (15 Jul 2014)

Jordi I fixed tube in vice but still it didn't help a lot with making all holes lined up. After you drill one hole you must release tube and reposition it again to do next hole..

I can see pretty uniform circular flow but I want to make sure whole width gets the same flow.


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## NC10 (15 Jul 2014)

MikeJojo said:


> Are you saying to match area of the hose? ceg4048 mentioned somewhere if I remember properly it's good to achieve about 80% of hose area.



I've always gone by exactly what's exiting, is exactly what's entering, or as close as possible anyway. I've not had any problems so far.

92% isn't something you should be losing sleep about anyway, just sort out getting them all in line at the highest point and you should be fine. Good luck anyway mate 

Edit: Just to add, I used the wood drill bits, the ones with a sharp point. Not sure what type you're using. Obviously you can put the point on exactly where your mark is for accuracy.


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## parotet (15 Jul 2014)

I first draw a line and then drill the holes. Fix the spraybar between two pieces of wood and slide them as one piece. This way the position won't change.... Just a suggestion.

Jordi


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## MikeJojo (15 Jul 2014)

NC10 said:


> Edit: Just to add, I used the wood drill bits, the ones with a sharp point. Not sure what type you're using.



I used the same. Even when originally I meant to use 4mm drill and calculated all I noticed it wobbling in drill, so recalculated all to use 3.5mm which was perfectly spinning.



parotet said:


> I first draw a line and then drill the holes. Fix the spraybar between two pieces of wood and slide them as one piece. This way the position won't change.... Just a suggestion.
> 
> Jordi



It's good idea. I try to do something like that.

Edit: Jordi - I was just reading another forum regarding that and Got an Idea similar to yours!

I received acrylic tube taped to long board kind of like plaster board. I will tape it to it again in few places and just move the board in vice. Tube will definitely stay in position! Yeahhh... Thanks Jordi


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## MikeJojo (15 Jul 2014)

Hi there again. I've been thinking about it got some science to work for me. Fingers crossed that I've found out the cause of all my headache. Doing all my spray bars I used to drill 3.5mm or 4mm holes. 

Now if you imagine how water escapes that little holes and take let's say 10mm hole then definately water will escape angled/every direction in fact. Why? Because there is not much acrylic tube thickness to guide stream of water straight out. If tube was 5mm thick then you can imagine water enters the hole and as it enters it bounce back 5mm wall and is guided straight out.

Now, having acrylic tube 2mm thick only, the only way to make sure water is escaping hole right is to make holes small enough so the ratio between thickness and hole size if right.

Other words, if you take 1cm piece of tube and put shower hose into it running water then water will go any direction basically. If you would do that with 5cm piece of tube it won't happen. 5cm tube is long enough to guide water straight out.

It is just my theory but i will try it and definitely let you know if it works soon 

What do you think? Did you get what I'm trying to describe here? I tend to complicate things and my english is not good enough to describe it better but let's see.


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## NC10 (16 Jul 2014)

First off, not sure where you're from, but your English is spot on. How you've managed to understand and reply to any of my posts is beyond me 

I think you're heading in the wrong direction though, no pun intended. The thickness of the tube could be 1mm or 50mm, if the holes are not straight it will come out in whichever direction the hole is heading.

There is no problem in drilling 10mm holes, the water should still come out straight if it's done right. It's the water pressure keeping it coming out straight, or whatever direction the hole has been drilled in. If you think about not using a spraybar and just using the actual tube from your filter, 16mm or whatever, it still comes out straight doesn't it. It doesn't just exit randomly at the end, it follows the route it's being told to.

As long as you stick to the same area in/out you could have 3x 10mm holes, 50x 1mm holes, or 20x 2mm holes for example. They would all come out straight if they matched the area and were drilled straight. Obviously they'd differ in speed/velocity, but the same amount of water would be coming from each hole, straight.

I'm also struggling to get across what I mean, I hope you understand my English lol 

What size is your pipe and what type of flow do you want? I'll work a few options out tomorrow if you like, it's down to you to drill them straight though


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## MikeJojo (16 Jul 2014)

NC10 said:


> It's the water pressure keeping it coming out straight,



Forgot about that and yes I would agree it does matter.

Now, here is video of my old spray bar where I taped all previously drilled holes and drilled new test ones with 2mm, 2.5mm and 3.5mm. Please see results and share your thoughts. See video's description.



Mike


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## NC10 (16 Jul 2014)

My thoughts  

If you really want to do an experiment to test how different sized holes act differently, you need to have all the holes of equal size on individual spray bars with the same space between them, making sure the same area is exiting. Surely adding different sized holes with different spacing between them will only lead to trouble. Did you calculate the area in vs out taking into account all the holes of different sizes? What's the outlet size of the shower as well, can't you test it on the actual pump?

In the first part of the bar with the smaller holes which are coming out straight, you've only put 2 in the same gap as you've put 3 of the larger holes in. Water will attract attract to water, so by leaving even less gap by fitting more in and increasing the size, the spray from the larger holes is going to start interfering with each other.

The last 3 look like they're coming out straight, which I'm guessing are the biggest holes which would rule your thinking out, it's only when they get higher up that they start messing up. The other 2 sets to the left look like they're not even coming out straight, so would lead back to drilling the holes straight in the first place. Going by the direction they're coming out, I'm guessing you're right handed anyway 

I think you're starting to really over think it though. Once that (not that one obviously) is in the tank, it will give you a nice uniform flow. The larger hole theory doesn't work though, I think it's all about the straightness of the hole in your case.


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## MikeJojo (16 Jul 2014)

I've drilled holes randomly and haven't calculated area in/out.



NC10 said:


> The last 3 look like they're coming out straight, which I'm guessing are the biggest holes



No, they are 2mm again. I put a note of all holes in description of video. You can see it if opened in youtube.

Have a look at video and description again and you'll see that basically the bigger hole the more skewed. All holes were drilled in drill stand, and tube fixed in vice.

I'll drill another couple of 3.5mm to the left and then couple of 2mm again left to them, so there will be some 2's, 3.5's and 2's again. That will rule out position of hole in tube causing different stream, I suppose 

Anyway, I will probably go for 2mm holes what gives me one hole every 1cm and makes 62'ish holes. Will flow be still good having hose outflow area = sum of all holes area, as a obvious rule?

Mike


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## NC10 (16 Jul 2014)

I viewed it on YouTube but can't see a description  (can you copy and paste it here)

If they're 2mm at the end then,  it shows how the pressure is dropping off, making them look "fatter" for want of a better word. 

Adding more random holes to that bar is just going to affect how you'll view the results and you still won't be able to come to a conclusion. You could always tape up your other 3 test bars and try the holes the same size on each one if you really want to get to the bottom of it. As long as the the area and holes are worked out correct they should all come straight though.

I'm guessing you're on 16mm ID then. 201.06 area. If you want to run slightly below area like you've mentioned before, it should be fine. You could go up to a max 64 holes and still be within area.


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## NC10 (17 Jul 2014)

Can't edit my post:



MikeJojo said:


> Anyway, I will probably go for 2mm holes what gives me one hole every 1cm and makes 62'ish holes. Will flow be still good having hose outflow area = sum of all holes area, as a obvious rule?
> 
> Mike



60+ holes seems a lot to me after thinking about it, but it depends what type of flow you want. I can't remember exactly how many holes I have without checking, but it's around 20 I think in a 4ft long spraybar and for me it's too many. It's very gentle, not as aggressive as I was looking for anyway. If I did it again I'd have gone for a lot less. Going by this, I can only guess that 60+ holes would be nothing more than a dribble. Mines with 2000lph though, not sure what lph you're going to be kicking out of yours.

All you have to work with is the flow from the filter/pump anyway, how you decide to share this between each hole is up to you. More holes equals less flow from each, more gentle. Less holes equals more flow from each, more aggressive.


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## ceg4048 (18 Jul 2014)

Hi Mike,
                It's probably a good idea to make sample bars using PVC first since it easier and cheaper to work with. Internal burrs can also affect the exit angles so if there is a way to clean the up via reaming the tube with sandpaper or stiff brush to catch the pieces along the length then try that. Of the two groups of holes in the video the group on the right side look the worst but even the brand name bars spit out the odd jet at an odd angle, especially when the tube gets dirty so it's not worth worrying too much about it. As long as the jets hit the front glass then that will do. Fill the tank and place tiny pieces of paper or bits of flake food and see what the general path is. The most important motion is that the flow reaches the front glass and that it is deflected downwards. If you can achieve that then mission accomplished.



 

Cheers,


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## MikeJojo (18 Jul 2014)

Thanks ceg. 


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## MikeJojo (18 Jul 2014)

Ceg, one question. 

I believe it was you saying that when calculating area of all holes for spray bar it's good to go for about 80% of hose area. Do you reckon stating it somewhere?

I can't find that post. Forgive me if it wasn't you. 


Mike


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## parotet (18 Jul 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> Hi Mike,
> It's probably a good idea to make sample bars using PVC first since it easier and cheaper to work with. Internal burrs can also affect the exit angles so if there is a way to clean the up via reaming the tube with sandpaper or stiff brush to catch the pieces along the length then try that. Of the two groups of holes in the video the group on the right side look the worst but even the brand name bars spit out the odd jet at an odd angle, especially when the tube gets dirty so it's not worth worrying too much about it. As long as the jets hit the front glass then that will do. Fill the tank and place tiny pieces of paper or bits of flake food and see what the general path is. The most important motion is that the flow reaches the front glass and that it is deflected downwards. If you can achieve that then mission accomplished.
> 
> Cheers,


 
Hey Clive, you have a sun above your tank. Looking at the right side of the light I would say that there are at least 10x T5 tubes  
Doesn't look like the superlong tank we've seen other times. New setup?

Jordi


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## Edvet (18 Jul 2014)

parotet said:


> Doesn't look like the superlong tank we've seen other times. New setup


 He's not allowed to give any information, he's working for NASA creating habitable Mars housing.........


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## parotet (18 Jul 2014)

Bad news, I was there last week and ADA has opened a new shop...


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## ceg4048 (18 Jul 2014)

MikeJojo said:


> I believe it was you saying that when calculating area of all holes for spray bar it's good to go for about 80% of hose area. Do you reckon stating it somewhere?


Hi Mike,
           No I wouldn't have said that. Any reduction of the original cross sectional area of the filter outlet tubing causes a reduction in flow. What I would have said was that the sum of the total area of the holes should equal the cross sectional are of the filter outlet tube.




parotet said:


> Hey Clive, you have a sun above your tank. Looking at the right side of the light I would say that there are at least 10x T5 tubes
> Doesn't look like the superlong tank we've seen other times. New setup?


No it's the same 1/2 kilowatt T5 PC, just a different angle. That was during my Actinic phase...

Cheers,


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## MikeJojo (18 Jul 2014)

Clive, I'm sorry for that. It must have been another reputable user either here or on another forum. I'll try to dig it out but anyway  thanks you cleared this out. 


Mike 


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## MikeJojo (18 Jul 2014)

NC10 said:


> I viewed it on YouTube but can't see a description  (can you copy and paste it here)



Tried to find out if size of the hole matters in angled streams. Holes from the left are as follow:

- 9 of 2mm diameter
- 4 of 3.5mm diameter
- 1 of 2.5mm diameter
- 4 of 2mm diameter



NC10 said:


> Adding more random holes to that bar is just going to affect how you'll view the results and you still won't be able to come to a conclusion. You could always tape up your other 3 test bars and try the holes the same size on each one if you really want to get to the bottom of it. As long as the the area and holes are worked out correct they should all come straight though.



Here are two more videos. First is showing spraybar until now. It has 3.5mm holes drilled. Second one is with 2mm hols (56 LOL). I used same tools on both of them and you can see how streams are coming out differently.

First video



Second video






NC10 said:


> I'm guessing you're on 16mm ID then. 201.06 area. If you want to run slightly below area like you've mentioned before, it should be fine. You could go up to a max 64 holes and still be within area.



I'm on APS 1400 15mm ID. Made 56 holes 



NC10 said:


> More holes equals less flow from each, more gentle. Less holes equals more flow from each, more aggressive.



It's really gentle but I'll have a look tomorrow how co2 bubbles travel around.

Mike


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## MikeJojo (19 Jul 2014)

Hi guys

Little update. I re-drilled my old spray bar. 

I taped old holes and drilled new ones using 4mm drill bit. Velocity is much better of course and all streams are coming out straight. How I've done it?

I took piece of acrylic tube and drilled test hole straight down. Then tested how far stream goes sideway and drilled second hole but at the angle to balance angled stream. 

Now I have spray bar with 14 holes of 4mm instead of over 50 holes of 2mm. 

And what's most important I know how to make streams jetting straight out when drilling straight holes doesn't work for me 

Mike 




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## MikeJojo (22 Jul 2014)

NC10 said:


> I can't remember exactly how many holes I have without checking, but it's around 20 I think in a 4ft long spraybar and for me it's too many. It's very gentle, not as aggressive as I was looking for anyway.



Do you remember what is size of holes in your spraybar? If not, what's your hose ID and spraybar OD/ID?

Mike


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## Gilles (22 Jul 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> What I would have said was that the sum of the total area of the holes should equal the cross sectional are of the filter outlet tube.


Ok, let me get this straight for a non native English speaker.

I have a Fluval FX6, which has 25mm hose.
To calculate the area of a circle, i have to multiply the square of the radius by Pi (which comes down in Excel to the following formula if i am correct) which returns ~490.
"=Pi()*(25/2)^2)"

Then i have the following information;
Nr of Holes (A)
Diameter (B)
Calculated Surface (C)

By guessing, i came to the following numbers:
A = 70
B = 3
C = ~494

which means i have to drill 70 holes of 3mm diameter to get approx. the same amount of surface, correct?
And i can adjust this to 4mm, 5mm even as long as i get thesame surface area i would have thesame amount of flow.. ?


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## MikeJojo (22 Jul 2014)

That's correct calculation, but do not go for 70 holes of 3mm diameter because there will be not much velocity.

Edit: I made a spray bar once with over 50 holes of 2mm diameter and velocity was not good really.


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## MikeJojo (22 Jul 2014)

Guys, I've just received another two pieces of 1m acrylic tubes from www.trentplastics.co.uk and will be doing another spraybar but this time with 5mm holes. I need to do 9 holes. Hopefully this time I'll be happy with velocity and all streams will be reaching front glass.


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## Gilles (23 Jul 2014)

MikeJojo said:


> That's correct calculation, but do not go for 70 holes of 3mm diameter because there will be not much velocity.
> 
> Edit: I made a spray bar once with over 50 holes of 2mm diameter and velocity was not good really.



Won't the velocity be the same as with 1x 25mm output (since surface is equal)?
What would be your suggestion?


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## ceg4048 (23 Jul 2014)

Hi Gilles,
               I'm really not sure about your hose calculation. Is 25mm the outer diameter or is it the inner diameter? The area we're talking about is the area that the water flows through and does not include the tube's wall thickness.

I'm not sure why there's a need to guess. Just pick the number of holes you want to drill. If you pick 70 holes then each hole must have a cross sectional area of 490/70 = 7 square mm.

Each hole that you add increases the friction and lowers the pressure as the water pours out so there is some loss there and you want to avoid having a lot of holes,  but basically it's as you described.

Cheers,


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## MikeJojo (23 Jul 2014)

Gilles said:


> Won't the velocity be the same as with 1x 25mm output (since surface is equal)?
> What would be your suggestion?



Area must be the same but let's take for example single hose of 25mm and run water. If you put your hand against it you will feel much force/ pressure on your hand. If you add spray bar with ie 20 holes size of 5mm then if you put your hand against one single hole you won't feel the same amount of force. 

That's what happens in aquarium. 

More small holes = less velocity

Less but larger holes = more velocity

People play with number and size of holes to achieve strength of flow that works best in their aquariums. 

I'm doing I think 5th spray bar now but this time with 9 holes of 5mm in size. 


Hope it helps. 

Mike


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## Gilles (1 Sep 2014)

I will be making two versions of 25mm piping;
1 with 5mm holes (20 square mm) and 25 holes.
1 with 6mm holes (28 square mm) and 17 holes.

If i read ceg correctly, you'd want the streams to hit the front glass, then it is mission accomplished


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## Edvet (1 Sep 2014)

You might even want to start with not all the holes made, easier to add holes then to plug them.


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## Gilles (1 Sep 2014)

good advice Ed


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