# Dark veins - is it magnesium deficiency?



## daizeUK

I've noticed some lighter coloured leaves on my anubias and crypts with darker veins (can upload a picture if required?)

According to this guide it is a sign of magnesium deficiency: http://miyabi-aqua.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/plant-deficiency-labeled.jpg
Is this correct?

(Currently I dose potassium sulphate, potassium phosphate, chelated trace mix and EasyCarbo.)


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## OllieNZ

No Nitrogen? If not thats your most likely culprit. Pics are always good.


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## ceg4048

The link you posted is a chart more appropriate to terrestrial plants. We would need more data, such as how much of what in what in what size tank in order to troubleshoot.

Cheers,


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## daizeUK

Thanks for the replies.

Here's a pic of the anubias, there are three leaves on the left, right and middle showing the dark veins.



 

The tank is 64L.  I aim for half-EI dosing of potassium, phosphorus and trace.  I dose twice the standard dose of EasyCarbo.

Nitrate reads 30ppm in the tank.  Originally I didn't include nitrogen in my dosing regime because my tap water had 40ppm and I thought weekly water changes would be sufficient.  I've since realised that my tap water nitrate is unreliable and has now dropped down to 10ppm.  So is this most likely a sign of nitrogen deficiency?

My water supplier lists magnesium in the water supply at 4mg/L.  Again I thought this would be enough so I didn't need to add extra magnesium. 
Should I get both nitrate and magnesium to be sure?


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## ceg4048

You're using a nitrate test kit...and only dosing half...and depending on someone else's miserable test kit to tell you how much of the second most important nutrient in the Universe is available?

I'm virtually speechless.....

Cheers,


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## three-fingers

If your worried about magnesium, Epsom salts are very cheap in Boots and big supermarkets.  You could even try magnesium nitrate if you don't already have KNO3 or Epsom salts lying around.

However, when I look at those pics I don't see dark veins, I see yellow leaves, so as Clive is indicating, it's most likely a nitrogen deficiency .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## daizeUK

Clive - I am dosing half EI because that is what Tom Barr advised me to do.  It's standard advice to dose half EI in a tank with only liquid carbon and slow-growing plants?  Everything I'm doing is exactly what he advised me to do at the time (though of course he couldn't know my tap nitrate would drop). 



plantbrain said:


> I'd just do a weekly large water change, there's your NO3.
> Feed fish well.
> Dose the Easy carb daily and at a relative high rate.
> I'd switch K2SO4 with the KNO3 for dosing EI, and then use about 1/2 EI, maybe 1/3 EI ranges.
> Add some fish/algae eaters, Bushy nose plecos, gold nuggets etc, shrimp etc.



Three-fingers - thanks, I'll get some from APF!


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## dw1305

Hi all,


> Should I get both nitrate and magnesium to be sure?


 Yes get them both. I agree with Clive and "three-fingers", it it is much more likely to be nitrogen, but the "interveinal chlorosis" shown may be magnesium deficiency. 

The reason it is likely to be nitrogen is that in the winter farmers aren't adding nitrogenous fertilisers (nitrate is soluble and easily leached from soils), and with high rainfall, water from rivers and aquifers is diluted, leading to lower levels in tap water. 
Because you don't add any magnesium and I assume your water is quite hard? (your Platies look happy) high levels of calcium can effect magnesium uptake. 

Have a look at the Duckweed Index  <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/low-maintainence-long-term-sustrate.14400/>.

cheers Darrel


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## daizeUK

Thanks Darrel!  Yes my water is very hard, I didn't know that calcium could affect magnesium uptake.
I'll get some potassium nitrate + magnesium sulphate.  It might be interesting to add one at a time to see what effect they have!


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## dw1305

Hi all,


> It might be interesting to add one at a time to see what effect they have!


 Yes I'd definitely add them one at a time, try the nitrogen first, and then wait ~ a week. Both magnesium and nitrogen are mobile within the plant, so you should see a pretty quick response, usually within a couple of days.

cheers Darrel


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## daizeUK

Great thanks Darrel.
It turned out quite expensive to ship a kilo of magnesium sulphate (about £5.50 plus £6 postage) so I followed Three-fingers advice and checked out my local pharmacy, 2 minutes walk down the road, 1.5kg of pure Epsom Salts for £3.99!   Result!
So I've got the magnesium now, is it okay if I start adding that first?


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





daizeUK said:


> So I've got the magnesium now, is it okay if I start adding that first?


 Yes. It is the heptahydrate (MgSO4.7H2O) You can use the calculator at James' Planted Tank: <James' Planted Tank - Dosing Calculator>

cheers Darrel


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## daizeUK

Got it, you're a star!


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## MirandaB

Sorry to jump in on this but think I have the same problem as daize.
Have got some Magnesium Sulphate but I normally dose my powders straight into the tank,is it ok to this with the Magnesium and if so how do I calculate how much I need?


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





MirandaB said:


> Have got some Magnesium Sulphate but I normally dose my powders straight into the tank,is it ok to this with the Magnesium and if so how do I calculate how much I need?


 Yes you can put it straight into the tank as a dry powder, whatever it says on the label it will be the heptahydrate, it picks up atmospheric moisture until it is fully hydrated. 

You can still use the calculator at James' Planted Tank, you just ignore the dilutions. I've put the working below:

Element & RAM ("Relative Atomic Mass")
Mg = 24
S = 32
O = 16
H = 1

24+32+(4*16) + (14*1)+(7*16) ~ 24+32+64 = 120 + 14+112= 126 ~ 120 + 126 = 246 (this is the RMM "Relative Molecular Mass" of MgSO4.7H2O) 

So "Epsom Salts" have 24/246 ~ 10% Mg.
10g of MgSO4·7H2O, supplies 1g of Mg.
1g of Mg (from 10g MgSO4·7H2O) in 1litre of H2O = 1000mg in 1,000,000mg = 1000ppm Mg sol.
1g in 10litres = 100ppm Mg
1g in 100litres = 10ppm Mg

cheers Darrel


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## MirandaB

thanks Darrel you're a star! would that be daily dosing?


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## daizeUK

I think that 10ppm is the weekly target, so I am dividing it by 3 and adding to my Macro solution dosed three times a week.  That works out as about 1g of Magnesium sulphate per 30L.  Daily dosing would be about 1g per 70L.


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## MirandaB

Thanks daize   Maths not my strong point


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## daizeUK

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> Both magnesium and nitrogen are mobile within the plant, so you should see a pretty quick response, usually within a couple of days.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Should I expect to see the chlorosis disappear in the existing leaves, or is it only new growth that will benefit from the new ferts?


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## dw1305

Hi all,





daizeUK said:


> Should I expect to see the chlorosis disappear in the existing leaves


 Because N, K and Mg are all mobile within the plant, you would expect to see the new leaves to show the initial rapid response, but even the old leaves should begin to colour up after 10 days or so. 

The other element associated with inter-venial chlorosis is iron (Fe), and that is only very weakly mobile in the plant. In the case of iron deficiency the new leaves would be green, but the older leaves would remain yellow.

cheers Darrel


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## daizeUK

Great, that's very helpful thanks!  I will keep testing a while longer before I attempt a diagnosis.


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