# Brexit and...



## LondonDragon (14 Sep 2017)

... the hobby!

Looks like a lot of smaller retailers are struggling with this at the moment. Have you noticed any impact on the aquatic space since Brexit?


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## Lgtuk (15 Sep 2017)

No more than normal. Retail has always been difficult especially for smaller shops with tight margins on bottom line.

They open some succeed some close or move online or abroad. I think is more retail evolution to keep the bottom line manageable than the Brexit effect.

That is my view as a customer though.


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## rodoselada (15 Sep 2017)

The brexit effect feels for the moment only in rising prices due to depreciation of the pound, but it is unjustified from my point of view,
because no taxes are levied on imports from the fifth European Union.


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## BubblingUnder (15 Sep 2017)

No change but not really a Brexit story more a global competition trend. You have massive online rivals for hardware Amazon, EBay etc & the large chains taking their slice think Maidenhead Aquatics, Pets at Home etc.

Also population changes with increased mobility & the trend for smaller homes reducing demand for things that are more difficult to move i.e Aquariums & bans on keeping pets in some rented properties.

The independent shops that get it right i.e consistant quality fish & plants with a smaller hardware offering at reasonable prices will always thrive especially if they are able to combine with another business garden centres or location to increase footfall & free parking or appear regularly in magazines like PFK as a favourite local retailer.
I've seem many shops appear over the years that open with a big splash that then close very quickly when they realise the market they hoped for doesn't exist I think they need to research the market more first.

The same thing happened with the many local angling shops that used to exist the ones that remain do well by offer fresh good quality bait (hard to do well online) with a smaller hardware offering. The ones that used to specialise in hardware consolidate & include an online shop but have larger regional outlets.

Just my observations over the years as a customer.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (15 Sep 2017)

I can't say I've noticed any difference in the prices of anything so far anyway. Ultimately, however you look at it Euro countries are still going to want to sell to the UK, they're are a huge customer and money will always dictate. The way I see it if Euro countries want to sell their goods here the pressure will be on them to be cost effective other wise if a tax is imposed on imports the supplier will have to find a way of off setting that tax other wise a UK company will see the opportunity and fill that gap. Vice versa on exports but one would assume businesses would just adapt to those conditions. Look at Unilever, they immediately put 10% on their products without any justification using Brexit as their reasoning before any import taxation had been imposed and several large super markets stopped stocking their products and a lot of people in the UK stopped buying them (pot noodle gate) they soon took a u turn. 
The UK government are talking the talk because they have to to appease the brexiters as are the EU publicly because they don't want it to look like a good idea to leave, their institutions depend on it. Behind closed doors I guess they're both looking for damage limitation though. The EU wanting to look like the UK is worse off and the UK wanting something to say to the people that's makes them feel like democracy works. It'll all sort itself out, it has to.
The weird thing is EU has been blamed for a lot of what was wrong with UK and after leaving I guess still will so there's no winners. The only positive note going forward is the govt can no longer blame unelected people for the reasoning why which is I suppose the intention in the first place. No doubt any issues we have will be blamed on leaving with plenty of I told you so attitude from the remainers in govt in much the same way they always blame the previous govt. 
Politicians will always be politicians.
David Cameron was a lot to blame and the EU's no Deal attitude. If he'd went for freedom of movement of labour rather than people and the ability of UK courts to over rule EU law when necessary and EU had went with that it all could have been avoided which is actually beneficial to quite a lot of other member states like Germany in particular.
The EU saying no, my way or the highway just fuelled it in the UK. Ironically that's why a lot of people wanted out in the first place because they felt like control over their own country has been taken away and the Eu just proved that is the case.
It'll all be fine though, it is what it is.


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## Tim Harrison (15 Sep 2017)

Not necessarily the aquatic space but retail in general isn't doing as well. I know for a fact that some multinationals trading in the UK have had a massive margin knocked off their bottom line before they even start to trade because they buy in Euros.
Plus the uncertainty has hit sales massively, so overall everyone is having to work a lot harder to keep businesses afloat.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (15 Sep 2017)

The Revenue are going to have their work cut out I reckon. China and Ireland stand to do alright, look at the amount of chinese goods that make their way to the UK without paying any import tax or the tax is left in the responsibility of the purchaser. If Ireland remains I can see a lot of goods making it through the back door, not as simple though with business to business transactions which leave a paper trail. I personally don't trade in Europe although I buy goods in, I've noticed there have been two quite significant price increases in materials compared to previous years but other factors have caused these. Having a dry lining business the price of metal has increased and thermal products. However this was mainly down to a factory that makes the chemicals burning down and one going bust and metal prices fluctuate at the best of times. Not good for me when I'm pricing jobs sometimes 6 months in advance based on today's prices but obviously I have to try and anticipate the increase, build that in and ultimately pass that on to the customer so I'm no stranger to volatile markets and as I say business's will need to adapt or die.
I personally don't think it will be too severe, it's in nobody's interests really. An example would be with regards to metal, generally I would buy mine in from large multinational companies, just lately I've been getting emails from smaller companies looking to supply who have more control over their pricing because they are buying in scrap and rolling the steel sections themselves so they have more control over the supply chain and are more streamlined. Their prices are significantly cheaper and using them creates more jobs and business's in the UK so as such that can only be seen as a positive thing. Someone will always fill the gap.

I saw something the other night with Mervyn King (Ex Governer of bank of England) and he was very positive about the whole thing. He suggested the problem is the lack of a plan B. If the govt was to say we are going to do A with Europe and they say no we are going to do B then that would give business's something to work on, it's indecision that causes the volatility in markets. The UK govt just need to either sh@t or get off the pot. I suspect though we will end up with some watered down version of being in the EU.


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## Tim Harrison (15 Sep 2017)

I think it's the politicians who can't accept it's a done deal, and who are still hanging on to some misguided notion that we can still remain, that are doing the damage by sticking spanners in to the political works at every opportunity.
They all just need to accept it's going to happen, pull together, and get on with it...I think that, above all else, will restore confidence to the market place.
Also, I don't think we've noticed the difference in prices so much because inflation has remained stable, but it's very recently started to rise and may continue in that trend, so we might start to feel the pinch sooner than later.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (15 Sep 2017)

There's also talk of oil prices rising due to what's been happening with storms in the US and damaged refineries. No doubt that will also get blamed on the EU, its an easy kicking block. I wouldn't like to be a politician right now. With the vote being 48/52 it doesn't matter what they do give or take half the country won't be happy. Shouldn't even have got this far, the whole point was it's a common market, the unelected people who represent each country should have got round the table and seen some things weren’t working for certain members and seen what they could have come up between them but they chose not too. No one to blame but themselves IMO.

The people of the UK got sick and took the decision out of their hands because they couldn't come up with a solution. Rightly or wrongly that decision has been made so they might as well just get on with it. Lot of talk lately on how the global finance crash set the mood for the whole thing. Lot of people lost out whether that be jobs or business's and the poor migrants took the hit. Most annoying thing is the banks now threatening to move out the UK if they don't get a good deal.

I saw a meme on Facebook once where there was an migrant worker, a banker and an Englishman standing round a pie cut into 10 pieces. The banker took 9 slices and said to the Englishmen watch the migrant worker, he's going to take your slice. Never a truer word said.


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## PARAGUAY (15 Sep 2017)

Well a customer in loc al Aquarium shop near to me not long ago decided to tell the owner of the establishment that he wouldn't mind having a aquarium store himself. Must have thought it was a doddle.The owner patiently told him a few home truths, there's an electric bill to consider,you always have to be well stocked ,plants and fish to attract custom,have as far as possible a good dry goods,section,and the latest gear what no doubt is available cheaper on the internet, have staff to pay,it's a 24 hour thing,live fish etc,insurance fees to think about,council tax rates ,good parking and location and the like.Suppose the guy went off maybe second thoughts.Speaking to the owner when it was quieter he said it's a difficult time ,the shop soon looks full but a lot are browsing or come for a chat. He did say if every visitor just purchased something however small it would help. Guess it is tough in retail for the smaller shops in particular just now and uncertainty in politics ain't helping


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## AverageWhiteBloke (15 Sep 2017)

Very difficult market to be in I would imagine for all the things you've mentioned especially the Internet,  eBay and Chinese imports. 
I try and support my local shop as much as possible but the problem is once you've out laid on the equipment usually from the Internet what can you buy in a local shop. I buy food and it lasts for months as does the dechlorinator and the fish if kept right live for years. It's also quite a niche market, not like someone is going to pop in randomly off the street and buy a set up. Then there's the second hand market to contend with with people selling all their gear for buttons just to make space in the garage. 
I might go into my LFS and spend £20 and never go back for for months. How that shop survives on maybe the £5 net profit made on me I don't know. 
If I was looking to go set up in business with aquariums, and I often have as a retirement plan because I already have the premises I wouldn't imagine getting rich off it more as an income doing something I love I would fight on two fronts and have a retail front with Internet wholesale in the back.

A few people who work for me have said the same thing when they get wind of a price I put in for work. When I explain fair enough, if you want to buy and run vehicles, pay everyone's wages for the next 6 weeks until I get paid, pay for all the materials, get 10 million pounds worth of insurance cover and run the risk of a client going pop and I lose everything, as well as premises costs then they're welcome to it.
When that's all paid for hopefully there's some money left for me.

Anyone who thinks having your own business is easy is delusional. Believe me I have been through two recessions and came out the other end and if I had my time again, looking back I wish I'd just folded then, got a job, done whatever my employer wanted and waited for Friday coming like everyone else.
A lot of sacrifice, of your time and your family and you'll never get that time back again. 

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## BubblingUnder (16 Sep 2017)

PARAGUAY said:


> the shop soon looks full but a lot are browsing or come for a chat


That's the retailers footfall, their chance to promote themselves to the customer to sell and to get recommendations its exactly what you want.

I appreciate that smaller retailers are up against it but personally I buy hardware where I source my fish/plants (assuming they sell it). I try to buy something every time pop in for a look (food, plant fertilizer, liquid carbon & bits & bobs) any slight price difference is insignificant in the long term. My independent local shop is well run & knowledgeable large enough to have a good stock but small enough to have good staff. Retailers should do what they do well if you are good at freshwater fish & plants don't expand into marine as some outlets seem to spread themselves very thin & lose their customer focus.


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## sparkyweasel (16 Sep 2017)

PARAGUAY said:


> He did say if every visitor just purchased something however small it would help.



At one time I would always buy at least a few bags of live food whenever I was in a LFS. These days you have to buy it the day it's delivered, and you still get half the stuff in the bag dead. I assume it's the little sachets it's packed in that are not up to the job, convenient for the supplier and retailer, but bad for the customer.
Stocking decent livefood would bring in customers, and make sales to customers that visit for other reasons, and it's something that's hard to compete with on-line.


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## PARAGUAY (17 Sep 2017)

One thing what George Farmer mentioned in the Pets at Home thread is presentation a shop gives,if it's bad it will fail and in today's climate even with the best presentation it's not easy.A few Retailers are missing out on a small outlay with a Planted show aquarium. Many people new to the hobby have a go with plants fail altogether thinking that's how it is! AShop with good presentation and a good example of what can be achieved will keep customers of all levels of experience. Talking of Pets at Home calling in one recently the Tropica section,as members discussed in that thread,looked very poor,sparse -house plants half dead in packets sold as "Decorative " (your better than this Tropica)small range of plants not really value for money and even a UKAPS member could walk past without seeing Maybe Tropica could send in their  staff to sort it out. Appreciate it's only one aspect to Pets at Home but if your doing aquarium. Taking what's said in above posts maybe small retailers,I know some do,could order in on request for customers items on request.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (17 Sep 2017)

An idea I had, if I was to go down that route, would be to give away something free, nothing major but something you or a brand you are trying to promote if the customer fills in a questionnaire and drops it in next time they are in. The questionnaire would basically be what type of setup they have and what consumables they use and how often. This would make life easier for the store keeper to keep the correct levels of stock as well as products they know are going to sell, maybe even text customers letting them know what you have in for them when you know they are due a top up and try and catch them before they take the lazy option of ordering online while letting them know about any offers you have that week. Much the same as store cards work but without the massive outlay of software setup. Would also help with perishable goods for keeping the correct levels without waste.


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## dan4x4 (19 Sep 2017)

The conservative government favours large companies.

They have changed the water industry on commercial so you can choose your supplier. Except the company you used to pay bills to still owns the network. The government says it promotes "competition". It just adds a third party so more expense.

Where it benefits is if you have multiple buildings/sites or big sites then you're a more valued customer, so those third party companies are more inclined to offer larger business with discounts.

Totally awful for the small business. 

I stopped using these large chains a while back, as the service is terrible compared to a sole trader who actually wants you as a customer. For instance look at a bike shop guy round mine, he bent over backwards for me to buy a bike off him, he has one shop. The dude doesn't try to rip you off he gives you the facts lets you decide and gives you discount, you're also welcome in anytime to chat and they even do stuff for free for me.
Compare that to the larger chain evans, they want £30 to pick up an allen key and some of their employees are helpful but they don't care like the bloke i bought the bike off.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (19 Sep 2017)

For sure, at one point in around 2011 I had 16 people working for me, from 8am until dinner time I spent all my time on the phone dealing with complaints, people hadn't turned up yet, they were well behind schedule etc, etc. Because my work involves penalty clauses and liquidated damages if projects weren't completed on time this ended with firstly my business looking crap after spending ten years making a name for myself, lots of sleepless nights and early on set of a heart attack. I've managed to whittle it back to one team just big enough to cope when jobs over lap and small enough to care and not empty my pockets when things are quiet. When you start getting big you lose sight of your customers and forget why you started in the first place. Job satisfaction means more to me than any amount of money and people might think I'm mad but it really isn't about the bottom line for me although to stay a float it does have to be a priority. The only thing that happens when you have too many people and more mouths to feed is you end up buying in work at a low margin to keep people employed, then the people who you did this for start wanting to leave and throw it back in your face because it puts you under pressure to get the job done faster which ends up down the line at them from me and all of a sudden I'm the bad guy. Small margins can easily turn into losses and to be honest you're better off having less work at a higher margin than loads of work at low margins then you can provide a decent service. Yep, it's soul destroying at times 

I think back to a case where some people who were working for me and a company I was doing a large project for had a management buyout smack bang in the middle of it and the company accounts were frozen while it got carried out meaning I had no money for 3 months. I had done without wages myself for 6 weeks and was maxed out with all suppliers which you can imagine how my home life was going at that point. I couldn't get rid of two people because one had just had a baby and the other bought his first house and that wasn't sitting well for me so I rode it out, robbing Peter to pay Paul and eventually muddled through it. 3 months later one of the guys left to start a different career and a month after that he got the other guy a start at the same factory. All worth while thanks. People often forget when they're sat in front of their employer complaining because someone has used their milk in the staff canteen exactly what it took for them to be sitting in a staff canteen drinking tea. Especially when back in the day during a recession I was using a pallet of plasterboards and a bag of skim as a bed and pillow and going to a train station or swimming pool to get a wash because there was no money in the job to pay for hotels. Having a business takes a level of commitment most don't have so going down that route requires some serious thought about what you want in life.

Coming back to Brexit though, I voted to leave. People will say racist, bigot, xenophobe etc whatever. My reasoning is that if I pay all my taxes over to this government I want that government to be answerable to me, too many politicians say it's out of their hands its an EU decision and to me that's just a cop out. I understand how a common market can work, everything to the same standard, but laws, military, border control no, I'm not having that, for me that's giving too much away. Independent sovereign countries should have the ability to opt out of things if it helps in the running of their own country. If they can't have that it's time to leave. Free movement of people just isn't working, arguably the govt should have invested more in infrastructure, hospitals, schools and policing but unless anybody didn't notice we've been in austerity for the last ten years because of the banking collapse. In all fairness to the govt, if you're trying to organise a wedding it would be good to know how many people's coming right? No point having ten sausages on sticks if there's 100 guests!

I don't have any issues with free movement of labour rather than people. I think we all should be free to work around Europe if you want and have a job to go to. I had a plasterer worked for me who I took off the dole and after a couple of months approached me for more money or cash when in my eyes he was making good money. He reasoned that after his benefits, rent paid, poll tax paid and the money he got for his two kids he was only about £30 per week better off for coming to work! I tried to explain to him that when he does that though the money comes out of my pocket and all the people he was working with which he didn't seem to get. Bye, bye plasterer.
On the other hand I had two Romanian labourers who were staying here for five years, they travelled from job to job on the train, camped out on site, got a bath in a plastic tub which they filled up with hot water from the tea urn. Their only possessions were a suitcase full of clothes, a two ring breville stove, a small tv and a playstation. They went to a supermarket just before it closed and bought up all the stuff that was going out of date and ate like kings. Their families were sending them stuff they had taped off tv on CD's in their own language and they watched it on the Playstation. Neither of them had to do this, they got paid the same as everyone else and took their accommodation money in wages rather than me booking hotels. They reasoned that they were going to work here for five years, go home and buy some land and build a house on it.
I would rather have had two of the them than ten of the UK plasterer. My issue is with the people who come to milk the system, believe me we have plenty already and don't need any more thanks.

My apologies for the extremely long winded post, I feel like I've just off loaded 25 years of being in business just in that post  But now that I've managed to get all my end month tax return stuff done in the office since 8am this morning I now to get ready for a night shift I have to do in the local hospital because one of my employees has gone awol and he's the one with the driving licence so when I finish at around 4am tomorrow you can imagine I'll have some choice words for him and again, it will be me who's the bad guy.

Thanks for listening.


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## dan4x4 (19 Sep 2017)

I like your honesty average white bloke. I also voted out. 

Why do we need an extra government, we don't.
Then there would be the euro super army or whatever. Ie waste of money.

I also think Europe is the best place in the world, too much variety all close together. I think the euro would of made everything the same which is stupid. We want to keep our national identities. 

If I was in charge of this country, I'd promote a policy where the top of the business cannot earn more than 5 times the bottom.

Councils need more money, as does education. 

I think we shouldn't be spending money on nhs ops for people who are too lazy to loose weight. I also think you should pay into the system to get out. I think anybody who gets more than a 10 year prison sentence should loose their right to nhs. 

I ont believe people should be able to claim benefits and spend them abroad.

We need much better infrastructure, i.e. money spent on railways and cycling.

one more dog owners should be able to take their dogs on trains, pubs, restaurants or wherever as long as the dog is well behaved.

I also think its fine to come here from other countries and cultures, but those people should not be allowed to force their beliefs on others. 

Finally ban animal testing, offer incentives for renewables.

Make Great Britain great again haha

Pleased I got that off my chest. Feel free to slate me if you wish ha I don't mind.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (20 Sep 2017)

Everyone should have the right to health care regardless. Health care is a basic human right covered under the hypocratic oath. I don't really care what they've done. Unless you're in a developing country like the USA where it seems to be an issue  and Trump wants to take it away unless you have the cash to pay for it. 

To be clear I don't put asylum seekers in the same category as people coming for a doss either. Anyone fleeing from starvation,  persecution or war is welcome to come and stop at my house any time they want. They're the people I feel sorry for the most. They all became collateral damage in the whole Brexit deal and got vilified by the press. 

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