# Can I run my light/ferts plan by you guys



## Keetchy (12 Apr 2020)

So I've just installed a Twinstar 1200s 3 days ago. And its nice having the ability to ramp up and ramp down the intensity of it.

I have a plan in mind in regards to the light and adding ferts. Can I get your guys thoughts on it. I will be ferting TNC complete

At the moment the light is on...
14:00 - 0%
14:30 - 50%
21:30 - 50%
22:00 - 0%
Dosing 20ml per day

Do this for 2 weeks then.....
14:00 - 0%
14:30 - 60%
21:30 - 60%
22:00 - 0%
Dosing 20ml per day

For 2 weeks then.....
14:00 - 0%
14:30 - 70%
21:30 - 70%
22:00 - 0%
Dosing 25ml per day

For 2 weeks then....
14:00 - 0%
14:30 - 50%
16:30 - 80%
18:30 - 80%
20:30 - 50%
22:00 - 0%
Dosing 25ml per day

For 2 weeks then....
14:00 - 0%
14:30 - 50%
16:30 - 90%
18:30 - 90%
20:30 - 50%
22:00 - 0%
Dosing 30ml per day

For 2 weeks then....
14:00 - 0%
14:30 - 50%
16:30 - 100%
18:30 - 100%
20:30 - 50%
22:00 - 0%
Dosing 30ml per day

I didn't want to have the light on too high intensity for too many hours of the day incase this gives algae a massive chance to appear and grow


----------



## Jayefc1 (12 Apr 2020)

Looks good to me mate the light on 50% is probably stronger than your previous one so I'd break it in gently never used the tnc ferts so cant comment.on them to much but also watch your plants if there happy thriving and growing well at say 80% do.you need to push it to.the 100% do you need to up the ferts if the tank isnt going how you want then keep going till you find the happy balance.all I'd say is dont change.to much at once


----------



## Keetchy (13 Apr 2020)

Jayefc1 said:


> Looks good to me mate the light on 50% is probably stronger than your previous one so I'd break it in gently never used the tnc ferts so cant comment.on them to much but also watch your plants if there happy thriving and growing well at say 80% do.you need to push it to.the 100% do you need to up the ferts if the tank isnt going how you want then keep going till you find the happy balance.all I'd say is dont change.to much at once


Good advice dude. Why run a higher electricity bill when not needed. Lol. And yeah your right, even at 50% from the twinstar, its just a bit brighter than the old lights were on full whack.
As for ferts, been chatting to Johnny and he's made me realise I'm overdosing on ferts massively. I'm dosing 20ml per day with lights on 50% and the bottle suggests 30ml per week for 300 litres. Even if I times it by 3 as AG suggests, that's still only 90ml per week. And there's me dosing 140ml per week


----------



## Jayefc1 (13 Apr 2020)

Mark Keetch said:


> As for ferts, been chatting to Johnny and he's made me realise I'm overdosing on ferts massively. I'm dosing 20ml per day with lights on 50% and the bottle suggests 30ml per week for 300 litres. Even if I times it by 3 as AG suggests, that's still only 90ml per week. And there's me dosing 140ml per week


You can drop it and again read the plants it can always he upped and your doing yoirwater changes so it shouldnt have been to.much of an issue


----------



## Keetchy (13 Apr 2020)

Jayefc1 said:


> You can drop it and again read the plants it can always he upped and your doing yoirwater changes so it shouldnt have been to.much of an issue


Sweet dude. Doing 75% WC twice a week so I suppose if there is excess nutrients, they'd be getting drained away anyway


----------



## Zeus. (13 Apr 2020)

I would give it longer before increasing the intensity 4 weeks

Also why use TNC complete! its very expensive water after all. Some DIY ferts would work out much cheaper and have the same result. You could also use your water report and account for any NO3 and Mg that you tap was has/hasn't. I have done a Fert Cal V1.6 which does all the maths for you,  accounts for tap water report etc and you can even 'clone' your own 'TNC' fert mix with the 'Headsot ppm/regime' wizard


----------



## Keetchy (13 Apr 2020)

Zeus. said:


> I would give it longer before increasing the intensity 4 weeks
> 
> Also why use TNC complete! its very expensive water after all. Some DIY ferts would work out much cheaper and have the same result. You could also use your water report and account for any NO3 and Mg that you tap was has/hasn't. I have done a Fert Cal V1.6 which does all the maths for you,  accounts for tap water report etc and you can even 'clone' your own 'TNC' fert mix with the 'Headsot ppm/regime' wizard



So you suggest leaving it 4 weeks between each change? Will this help with the prevention of algae then bud?

As for TNC Complete against Ei. I started off dosing TNC and had no issues, then started on Ei to save money and then I started getting deficiency issues. I know for some of you guys it's easy cause you know the science behind it and know what deficiencies to look out for but for me, it's too complicated for me to get my head round. So I went back to TNC. I know it's a lot more expensive but it's only £50 for 5 litres of it which will last me about 6 months......that I can live with knowing the mix is all good. Then if the tank is lacking in something, I can start dosing that separately.


----------



## Sammy Islam (13 Apr 2020)

Mark Keetch said:


> Good advice dude. Why run a higher electricity bill when not needed. Lol. And yeah your right, even at 50% from the twinstar, its just a bit brighter than the old lights were on full whack.
> As for ferts, been chatting to Johnny and he's made me realise I'm overdosing on ferts massively. I'm dosing 20ml per day with lights on 50% and the bottle suggests 30ml per week for 300 litres. Even if I times it by 3 as AG suggests, that's still only 90ml per week. And there's me dosing 140ml per week



For a 300L tank you should be dosing 30ML a day to be dosing around EI levels, so 210ml a week would give you:





Aquarium gardens have always advised me to dose "tnc complete" using the instructions from "aquascaper complete". Which is daily dose of 5ml per 50L for high light tank.


----------



## Zeus. (13 Apr 2020)

Mark Keetch said:


> So you suggest leaving it 4 weeks between each change? Will this help with the prevention of algae then bud?



Yes, and it allows you to see how the plants respond. Turning the light up too quick doesnt give the plants time to show how they are doing.



Mark Keetch said:


> I started off dosing TNC and had no issues, then started on Ei to save money and then I started getting deficiency issues.



Did you resolve the issues ? If not changing to EI DIY ferts just may of been coincidental. As @Sammy Islam has just posted EI ferts would off boosted the nutrient levels compared to the recommended TNC dose.

Which fert you use is totally your call OFC


----------



## Keetchy (13 Apr 2020)

Sammy Islam said:


> For a 300L tank you should be dosing 30ML a day to be dosing around EI levels, so 210ml a week would give you:
> View attachment 133524
> 
> Aquarium gardens have always advised me to dose "tnc complete" using the instructions from "aquascaper complete". Which is daily dose of 5ml per 50L for high light tank.


Thanks bud. I think I remember you sending this to me before, or someone else has showed me it before.
I was planning on going 30ml per day as you can see from my original plan. I got chatting to someone yesterday, who is also on here, and they dose 10ml in their 300 litre tank. And their tank looks really good and healthy so I thought I was overdosing. AG told me when I bought the TNC to always x3 the recommended dosage on the bottle. Which made it 30ml per day.
Question is then, do I dose 30ml per day from the start or do I start low with the lower intensity light and then gradually increase the dosage as I increase the intensity?



Zeus. said:


> Yes, and it allows you to see how the plants respond. Turning the light up too quick doesnt give the plants time to show how they are doing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok i can leave it 4 weeks between each change. And funny enough the deficiency I have are still there. Holes in the leaves of the Palustris and MC being a pale green instead of deep green.


----------



## Zeus. (13 Apr 2020)

For feets I would do 30ml, and reduce/increase if needed.

For the holes in leaves and pale leaves sounds like CO2 defiency


----------



## Keetchy (13 Apr 2020)

Zeus. said:


> For feets I would do 30ml, and reduce/increase if needed.
> 
> For the holes in leaves and pale leaves sounds like CO2 defiency



Ok....this is what @Siege said when he saw pics I have of them. So I changed the positioning of my spray bar to how he suggested to help with the C02 distribution. I have placed the DC in 4 different spots in the tank and in all places it is a light green as lights come on and stays that colour until the C02 goes off.  I've even placed the DC just above the Palustris which is suffering with holes in leaves, and it's still light green


----------



## Zeus. (13 Apr 2020)

Mark Keetch said:


> Ok....this is what @Siege said when he saw pics I have of them. So I changed the positioning of my spray bar to how he suggested to help with the C02 distribution. I have placed the DC in 4 different spots in the tank and in all places it is a light green as lights come on and stays that colour until the C02 goes off.  I've even placed the DC just above the Palustris which is suffering with holes in leaves, and it's still light green



Maybe its just gets too much light in that area ! I get occasional holes in odd leaves but not often.


----------



## Keetchy (13 Apr 2020)

Zeus. said:


> Maybe its just gets too much light in that area ! I get occasional holes in odd leaves but not often.



Possibly. I'll let it grow a bit more as its no way near fully grown. It might sort itself out as it gets more mature


----------



## Alex Papp (14 Apr 2020)

Mark Keetch said:


> Thanks bud. I think I remember you sending this to me before, or someone else has showed me it before.
> I was planning on going 30ml per day as you can see from my original plan. I got chatting to someone yesterday, who is also on here, and they dose 10ml in their 300 litre tank. And their tank looks really good and healthy so I thought I was overdosing. AG told me when I bought the TNC to always x3 the recommended dosage on the bottle. Which made it 30ml per day.
> Question is then, do I dose 30ml per day from the start or do I start low with the lower intensity light and then gradually increase the dosage as I increase the intensity?
> 
> ...



test! Honestly- everyones advice will be slightly different on dosing. AG is in a rural area, so they're going to have low Nitrates, and anyway, they'll have different water parameters in other ways. 
If you test the potassium  and iron coming out of the tap and in your tank at different points in the day, it should give you a rough idea of how much fertiliser you need to add. Nitrate testing is quite hard to do, so see if your water company has any info, or if you want to you could buy a more accurate test kit (I haven't done this) https://www.aquasabi.com/Macherey-Nagel-Visocolor-ECO-Nitrate-Test-kit 
Anyway, if you determine the compound (N,P,K, Fe, Mg)  that's lowest in your water- it may well be potassium, then dose the amount you need to get to a good level of potassium for a few hours each day (it will go as/ if the plants use it) . 
If we think about Liebig's law of the minimum- say potassium is the limiting factor, its fine if you're dosing an all in one feritliser, because the other nutrients will be in excess- maybe not being used (ok sorry Tom Barr and luxuriant uptake  ) but you say you are doing big water changes, so any excess is removed. 


 
To summarise:
-test your water from the tap for macronutrients+ iron (I doubt magnesium will be an issue unless you have very soft water)
-find which elements are lacking (I suspect K+Fe)
-dose a bit at a time in your tank, trial and error, to get to the ideal levels of the elements
-the amount you have to dose to sustain those levels for a while (For iron this will go quickly, this is ok you only need to reach the recomended mg/l for 30 mins or so, unless it is EDTA chelated iron- this will stay in the water) is how much you should dose every day.

Just a thought. Willing to get ripped apart by all of UKAPs. I know it's not George Farmer style, but my way combines EI with target dosing, so you're not wasting your fertiliser!
We have a bit of time at home so why not get testing?
thanks Alex


----------



## Keetchy (14 Apr 2020)

@Alex Papp a lot of food for thought there. Thanks bud. Funny enough a good mate of mine has just got himself an all singing a dancing test kit which has most things to test for in it. I can test the tap water first and see what I'm starting with then test the tank. Is there anywhere I can find how much of each nutrient I should have in a 300 litre tank so I know how far out of each one I am so I can work out how much extra to additionally dose.


----------



## Zeus. (14 Apr 2020)

*What about Test Kits ?

The Estimative Index Of Dosing, Or No Need For Test Kits


*


----------



## Siege (14 Apr 2020)

Don’t waste your money on test kits Mark, instead just go to your water board website to download your local water report for what is coming out of the tap. That will be more exact.

by all means test the tank water for fun but donot trust the results 100%.


Nb. I think your Milton Keynes water will be similar to my Huntingdon water - rock hard with nitrates at 40 coming out of the tap. The only thing it is short in is magnesium (mainly calcium hardness)I recall from i last looked it up.


----------



## Alex Papp (14 Apr 2020)

Mark Keetch said:


> @Alex Papp a lot of food for thought there. Thanks bud. Funny enough a good mate of mine has just got himself an all singing a dancing test kit which has most things to test for in it. I can test the tap water first and see what I'm starting with then test the tank. Is there anywhere I can find how much of each nutrient I should have in a 300 litre tank so I know how far out of each one I am so I can work out how much extra to additionally dose.



Thank you-I didn't mention any values here because different amounts work well for different people. I would personally encourage you to aim for Dennis Wong's values:  (in ppm)
*NITRATES (NO3)*

4 - 12 _depends on plant mass in tank_

*PHOSPHATES (PO4)*

2.5 - 8 _depends on plant mass in tank_

*MAGNESIUM (Mg)*

4 - 6 _regardless of plant mass in tank_

*IRON (Fe)*

0.05- 0.6  _depends on plant mass in tank_
*POTASSIUM (K)*

12-25 _regardless of plant mass in tank_
https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/fertilisers-how-to.html

5ppm NO3
5ppm PO4
16ppm K
0.4ppm Fe/traces
This is an example from one of his tanks.
Please note he uses lots of additional substrate fertlisation with osmocote and iron.

I use these as a guideline as it is lower nitrogen than full EI and that means I can clean my glass less often. Remember if you start by just dosing a little bit, you'll probably reach the ideal levels or higher for most of the elements. Try to dose the minimum to get to the ideal level of your most depleted nutrient (for me potassium).
I was talking to Steve from Aquarium Gardens and he said he eased on the NPK dosing, lower than the recommended amount, and he has less algae to wipe off the glass as well.



Zeus. said:


> *What about Test Kits ?
> 
> The Estimative Index Of Dosing, Or No Need For Test Kits
> 
> *


I knew this was coming. @Mark Keetch I would advise you to look at this method, think about the pros and cons of different methods, see what works for you. By no means follow what I say at all. In my experience the approach outlined above works well for me but you see a lot of good full EI tanks. There are so many other variables involved it is likely someones "perfect" method won't work for you. 
Another way is Felipes fertliser approach. 
Fertilization routine by Seachem Flourish (Potassium 2x or 3x a week, Iron every next week and Nitrogen + Phosphorus every two weeks) recommended dose by manufacturer.  He also uses substrate fertilisation with Aquarioneo tabs.

Again this works for him, but in his water in Portugal is different to your water... its all a case of trial and error or testing lol. And I know testing isn't 100% accurate, but it could give you a rough idea, good for ESTIMATIVE  Index, maybe not target dosing...


----------



## Keetchy (14 Apr 2020)

Siege said:


> Don’t waste your money on test kits Mark, instead just go to your water board website to download your local water report for what is coming out of the tap. That will be more exact.



Ok so is this what your talking about @Siege 
If it is.....I dont know if this helps. It only tells me the legal limit each can be, I dont think it tells me what my water has



 



 

And your right....it does say my area had very hard water. Lol



Alex Papp said:


> Thank you-I didn't mention any values here because different amounts work well for different people. I would personally encourage you to aim for Dennis Wong's values:  (in ppm)
> *NITRATES (NO3)*
> 
> 4 - 12 _depends on plant mass in tank_
> ...



Appreciate all the info here @Alex Papp it gives me something to go by. Like you say, all tanks a different cause of the water but at least I can aim for this then adjust as needed. I also replace substrate root tabs every 3 months.

Oh and @Siege @Zeus. Going back to this Ludwugia Palustris, I moved the DC just above it yesterday and by the time the lights come on today, the colour is a bluey colour, definitely not green. Looks like you were both right about C02 deficiency. Only problem I've got now is working out how to get the C02 to that area. Its thr closest area of the tank to the diffuser so god knows why its lacking C02 there but no where else in the tank


----------



## Zeus. (14 Apr 2020)

Mark Keetch said:


> Only problem I've got now is working out how to get the C02 to that area.



better flow, just needs some playing around with filter output methods.

As your water report assuming you doing a 50% WC

you add

8ppm Mg
6ppm K
12ppm NO3
50ppm Ca
Your Ni looks OK too


----------



## Keetchy (14 Apr 2020)

Zeus. said:


> better flow, just needs some playing around with filter output methods.
> 
> As your water report assuming you doing a 50% WC
> 
> ...



At the moment I'm running a Fluval FX5 with a 40" spray bar across the back. The plan is to get a Oase 600 with skimmer lilly pipe glassware set so hopefully that will improve the circulation. 

So I'm doing 75% WCs. Sometimes twice a week if not twice a week then 3 times in 2 weeks.

So as long as I'm ferting 8ppm Mg,
6ppm K, 12ppm NO3 and 50ppm Ca, then all should be ok?


----------



## Keetchy (14 Apr 2020)

@Zeus. Next question bud, how do I know the ppm that is in the fert? All I have is the label on the bottle to go from. Which just has percentages


----------



## Zeus. (14 Apr 2020)

Mark Keetch said:


> Next question bud, how do I know the ppm that is in the fert?



Simple maths




I've been working on a Fert calculator, so lots of features and worked the % mass form weight in ml per element/ion and from the recommended dose per litre got to the ppm per dose for each product. Wasn't rocket science.

Input your water report tank dimensions size of WC and it also calculates the ferts you have added in WC. setup dosing bottles size dose frequency etc, Go to 'Headshot wizard pick your fert regime or commercial product pick your salts and presto its all done you have you weight in grams to add to your dosing bottles, even tells you if you exceed the solubility of salt

Fert Calulator still beta ATM but it does the job


----------



## Siege (14 Apr 2020)

Mark, why have you got the TNC lite. This is just micros only. You want the complete one with everything in it as you are using co2.

or did you decant a bigger complete bottle into the empty lite one?


----------



## Keetchy (14 Apr 2020)

@Zeus. Damn dude I bet that took a while to put that all together. I'll have to put all the inputs in when I'm doing a WC then as it asks for measurements from bottom of tank to water line before and during draining the water out.

@Siege yeah this was just a spare empty bottle I got from you guys when I bought the 5 litre bottle of complete


----------



## Zeus. (14 Apr 2020)

You can also just input the tank size and approximate the WC, but dimension work best OFC.
I did take a while but it was like a maths puzzle which I like, so enjoyed the challenge. Plus if folk use it it checks the maths so checks my ferts at the same time. Plus always good to help others at the same time. I am very pleased with the 'Headshot Wizard' and the 'Clone Wizard' is a delight. Any errors please give feedback or additions also. I do have PO4 to add to the water report as the OP was the first water report I've seen with PO4 in the tap water.


----------



## Keetchy (14 Apr 2020)

Zeus. said:


> You can also just input the tank size and approximate the WC, but dimension work best OFC.
> I did take a while but it was like a maths puzzle which I like, so enjoyed the challenge. Plus if folk use it it checks the maths so checks my ferts at the same time. Plus always good to help others at the same time. I am very pleased with the 'Headshot Wizard' and the 'Clone Wizard' is a delight. Any errors please give feedback or additions also. I do have PO4 to add to the water report as the OP was the first water report I've seen with PO4 in the tap water.


 Ok bud. Plan to do WC end of the week so will try to put inputs in then. Will message you if I get stuck


----------



## dw1305 (20 Apr 2020)

Hi all,





Mark Keetch said:


> I dont think it tells me what my water has


It is the average values, because the hardness and calcium values are pretty consistent through the year, your water is fully saturated with Ca++ and HCO3- ions.

Because the conductivity and NO3 values wobble about a bit it is likely to be a shallow aquifer source or blended water where all the sources are hard. This would be the type of water you get all over the South-Eat and East of England.

You can see that you also have some pesticide residues. <"Metaldehyde"> is from <"slug pellet" usage> (mainly used on Oil Seed Rape). <"Quinmerac"> and <"chlorapyralid"> are herbicides, also mainly from arable agriculture.

cheers Darrel


----------

