# 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.  EI time?



## tyrophagus (2 May 2010)

I have a 10 day old 180l tank.  I bought pre-cycled filter media from LFS and the substrate is ADA amazonia granules with power sand special.    I have excellent flow (eheim 2076 + vortech mp10)  and am using CO2 at about 10 bubbles/sec which keeps my drop checker at a green to light yellow colour.  My lighting is TMC 1000nd lighting tiles x 2 at 45% output for 4 hours per day and ramping up and down for 2 hours before and after max output period.

I initially had green water but that has since resolved.  I have done at least 50% every other day water changes and when I can manage to I have done daily water changes.  My intial NH4 levels were sky high >10 but have since dropped to 0.5 (today).

I add 10 squirts of ADA Brighty K per day + 10mls Easycarbo.

My Crypts are doing well, very few leaves have melted.  The Marselia has put up many leaves and there are evidence of some runners. The Pogostemon stellata and Ludwigia inclinata var. verticillata ''Cuba'' seem to be growing slowly but some of their stems look a bit yellow and glassy.

I pruned back the Hemianthus micranthemoides to try make it spread into a compact growth but found that days afterwards the remaining stems and leaves seemed to die and fade, I have lost 60% of the plant.  The Heteranthera zosterifolia I planted purely to add to the biomass during startup has had areas along the stems turn glassy, then melt away.  The same happened to my Rotala sp "green" which after I trimmed it mid stem and replanted the stems leaving the cut portion in situ, basically turned to mush.

So today given my ammonia levels are lower (0.5) I have increased the light intensity to 52% (from 45%). 

*I have been wondering if the nutrient levels may be wrong for the stem plants as those rooted in the substrate seem fine.*

My local water company can only provide the following parameters for my tap water.

ph 7.2
conductivity 600 us
sulphate 25
nitrate 41
nitrite 0
TH (cac03) 348

Should I switch to the EI method (I am using Brighty K and Easycarbo based on some excellent help and advice from TGM where I bought my tank) to see if I have a nutrient deficiency. It appears to me that my tap water has plenty of nitrates.  Does that matter if I start adding more??

I could buy some cheap plants to increase the planting level.

So the plan if I use EI from what I can understand from Clives article is:

EI for 40 gallons (160l)

Sunday â€“ 50% or more Water Change then dose [3/8 teaspoon KNO3] + [1/8 teaspoon KH2PO4]
Monday â€“ 1/8 teaspoon CSM+B
Tuesday - [3/8 teaspoon KNO3] + [1/8 teaspoon KH2PO4]
Wednesday - 1/8 teaspoon CSM+B
Thursday - [3/8 teaspoon KNO3] + [1/8 teaspoon KH2PO4]
Friday â€“ Rest
Saturday - Rest

However I would like to do 50% water changes every 2 days for the next 2 weeks at least as I'm worried that the presence of even low levels of ammonia will cause algae (although keeping the light levels low will help).  *Can anyone suggest alterations to the dosages to reflect what is needed with that many water changes and a tank that has not got that many growing plants in yet.*

I was thinking of just doing a 50% water change before dosing the macros and keeping the dosage the same.  I'd also continue the Easycarbo daily.

thanks

Graeme

this photo is today taken with a camera phone so excuse the quality


----------



## Nelson (2 May 2010)

*Re: EI - 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.*

i love it   .looks so natural.well done mate   .
can't help with advice though   .

edit.....i missed your journal   .just had a look.


----------



## tyrophagus (2 May 2010)

*Re: EI - 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.*

Thanks Neil.  It will be interesting to see what it grows into.  I have a feeling the wood will disappear to a large degree which is not want I want really.


----------



## Mark Evans (2 May 2010)

*Re: EI - 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.*



			
				tyrophagus said:
			
		

> I have a 10 day old 180l tank.





			
				tyrophagus said:
			
		

> I pruned back the Hemianthus micranthemoides to try make it spread into a compact growth but found that days afterwards the remaining stems and leaves seemed to die and fade,



you've pruned way to early for HM. 10 days isn't even the honey moon period for HM, especialy it's farmed version from tropica.

 if it has died, re plant the cuttings.


----------



## tyrophagus (2 May 2010)

*Re: EI - 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.*

Thanks for that saintly, i read somewhere afterwards that I should not have done that.  Do you think my problems stem from pruning to early and not allowing the plants to establish well.  Would this have weakened the rotala for instance?

Perhaps I should stick to the advice I was given and just continue the brighty k and easycarbo.

I have replanted the cuttings I have and they seem to be doing ok but they are small!


----------



## Dolly Sprint 16v (2 May 2010)

*Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.  EI t*

tyrophagus 

Brightly K is potassimum, your not adding any Nitrogen or phosphates or trace - these are within you tap water but due to the plants uptake of nutrients these levels may have been depleated by the middle of the week so by the end of the week the plants may be dewindling - if it were me start E.I and dose to accordingly to your plants requirements, keep dosing the easy carbo.

Regards
Paul.


----------



## Mark Evans (2 May 2010)

*Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.  EI t*



			
				tyrophagus said:
			
		

> Would this have weakened the rotala for instance?



rotala is much more robust than HM. This will survive in any conditions and will take some major cutting to see it off. HM is much more delicate and needs time to settle in.


----------



## tyrophagus (2 May 2010)

*Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.  EI t*



			
				Flyfisherman said:
			
		

> tyrophagus
> 
> Brightly K is potassimum, your not adding any Nitrogen or phosphates or trace - these are within you tap water but due to the plants uptake of nutrients these levels may have been depleated by the middle of the week so by the end of the week the plants may be dewindling - if it were me start E.I and dose to accordingly to your plants requirements, keep dosing the easy carbo.
> 
> ...



Thanks Paul

If I'm doing 50% water changes every 24 - 48hrs would these nutrients still be depleted.  I imagine the trace would become depleted quickly but do you think there will be enough nitrogen and phosphate just within the tap water?


----------



## Dolly Sprint 16v (2 May 2010)

*Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.  EI t*



			
				tyrophagus said:
			
		

> Flyfisherman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



tyrophagus
I would not say depletted but weakend as you are diluting the quantity of fertz every time you do a water change, as for the nitrogen / phosphate within the tap water, try and obtain a regional water report - this will detail water parimeters.

Regards
paul.


----------



## ceg4048 (2 May 2010)

*Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.  EI t*



			
				tyrophagus said:
			
		

> ...My Crypts are doing well, very few leaves have melted.  The Marselia has put up many leaves and there are evidence of some runners. The Pogostemon stellata and Ludwigia inclinata var. verticillata ''Cuba'' seem to be growing slowly but some of their stems look a bit yellow and glassy.
> 
> I pruned back the Hemianthus micranthemoides to try make it spread into a compact growth but found that days afterwards the remaining stems and leaves seemed to die and fade, I have lost 60% of the plant.  The Heteranthera zosterifolia I planted purely to add to the biomass during startup has had areas along the stems turn glassy, then melt away.  The same happened to my Rotala sp "green" which after I trimmed it mid stem and replanted the stems leaving the cut portion in situ, basically turned to mush.


These are classic symptoms of poor CO2. Your problem could be either the timing of your gas, flow/distribution or too much light. I am unable to assess your lighting at this time, mainly because I have absolutely no idea what "TMC 1000nd lighting tiles x 2 at 45% output" means. This sounds suspiciously like Klingon Anti-Matter weaponology.   If I had a universal translator I might be able to determine it's equivalence in terms of T5 wattage or micromoles of PAR, but, in any case I'd be willing to bet that whatever it means, the plants are telling you that they think it means the intensity is too high.

EI cannot fix carbon starvation, so I'd suggest you look at the above factors. As Flyfisherman quite rightly points out, Brighty K is essentially Potassium (K) + water. Yellowing of leaves typically means poor Nitrogen. You really cannot trust what a water report or a test kit tells you about Nitrogen, and Nitrogen is the second most important element - right behind Carbon. However, I assume the plants are rooted in AS Amazonia which is high in NPK - and the ammonia levels (if the kit can be trusted) shows high - which means there should be no shortage of Nitrogen - so this is all a bit strange. A preliminary analysis indicates therefore, that the most likely culprit is that you have exceeded the lighting threshold for sustainability.

Cheers,


----------



## tyrophagus (3 May 2010)

*Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.  EI t*



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> These are classic symptoms of poor CO2. Your problem could be either the timing of your gas, flow/distribution or too much light. I am unable to assess your lighting at this time, mainly because I have absolutely no idea what "TMC 1000nd lighting tiles x 2 at 45% output" means. This sounds suspiciously like Klingon Anti-Matter weaponology.   If I had a universal translator I might be able to determine it's equivalence in terms of T5 wattage or PAR, but, in any case I'd be willing to bet that whatever it means, the plants are telling you that they think it means the intensity is too high.



Clive they are LED lights - here is a link. http://www.tmc-ltd.co.uk/planted-tank/grobeam-1000.asp at 100% output they produce 800 lumens which I understands means little because we need to know PAR.

The lights increase to their set maximum output (currently limited to about 50% of their total capacity) over 2 hours from 12pm.  They remain at their 50% output from 2pm to 6pm then decrease and switch off 2 hours later at 8pm.  

Even though my C02 bubble counter is bubbling to fast to count the bubbles I do find that the co2 drop checker does not turn yellow, it stays a light green colour.  CO2 starts 2 hours before the lights come on and stops 1 hour before they switch off.  

I have excellent flow.  at least 10x via ext filter and vortech powerhead.

I have no fauna.  Should I turn up the CO2 and dim the lights, or just turn up the CO2?  Dimming the lights seems counter intuitive as I'm trying to get the plants to grow.  Does a limited nutrient cause damage to the plant at a cellular level when lighting is high?

Glad your on the case Clive  , your Vulcanesque ability to explain with reason and logic always makes for interesting reading.


----------



## ceg4048 (3 May 2010)

*Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.  EI t*

Yeah, unfortunately there is zero correlation between Lumens and PAR. Lumens are all about how the human eye sees, which is in a very narrow band centered around green. Plants see blue and red equally as well as green, a much broader band of energy.

I didn't get a very good look at your diffusion technique, so if you are dumping lots of gas into the tank and not quite getting it to go yellow there may be a problem with either the diffuser position relative to your flow, or, there may be a leak in the line. Mix some washing up liquid with water and either spray it on the lines/connections or use a small paint brush while the gas is on. If you get bubbles forming that identifies the leak.

Again, you might have plenty of flow but it may be inefficiently distributed. As a general rule, try to line up the outlets so that they point in the same general direction.

I would definitely dim the lights as a first step in troubleshooting, and increase the gas injection as a second step.
A plant is s factory where chemicals are combined on an assembly line to make food. The chemicals are Carbon+NPK+traces,  and the speed at which the line moves is determined by the light. More light means a faster moving line and faster production. However, if the line moves too quickly, and if there are shortages of raw ingredients, then the final assembled product will be flawed. Therefore the answer to your question is a resounding yes. Too much light causes destruction at a cellular level when the light is too high.

By a wide margin, most of the CO2 we inject goes straight out the window so we really have to think about our injection technique. Play with the placement of the diffuser and see if you can get the checker to turn yellow faster. By lowering the intensity, you will give yourself more breathing room.

Live long, and prosper.  

Cheers,


----------



## tyrophagus (3 May 2010)

*Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.  EI t*

Ok so I've dropped the lighting to 25% of the maximum output, no leaks in the co2, >10 bubbles per sec but have a cheap bubble counter (do they make different sized bubbles the different types?).  Going to hold off on ferts and just continue brighty k and easycarbo.

I'll let you know what happens.  Thanks everyone for their input.


----------



## mdhardy01 (3 May 2010)

*Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.  EI t*

"TMC 1000nd lighting tiles x 2 at 45% output" 
clive these refer to tropical marine centre's LED lights

are these the plant ones or the marine?
matt


----------



## ceg4048 (3 May 2010)

*Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.  EI t*

Hmm, so it seems. Well, Tropical Marine Centre needs to buy themselves a PAR meter so they can rate their products properly...

It really doesn't matter whether they are Marine or otherwise. Without an energy frame of reference, or a way to determine the quantum yield of the bulbs it's going to be hell on wheels trying to determine the proper lighting levels for any tank. :? 

Cheers,


----------



## mdhardy01 (3 May 2010)

*Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.  EI t*

Pfk magazine did an article using a par meter a couple of months back
think they used the marine ones and they had quite high readings
if memory serves me well
can look for it if it helps
matt


----------



## ceg4048 (3 May 2010)

*Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.  EI t*

Yes! That would be very useful mate, if you wouldn't mind...  

Cheers,


----------



## mdhardy01 (3 May 2010)

*Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.  EI t*

Pfk say that at the surface they produced 585 umols and at 60cm deep
this droped to 130 umols 
they say the marine White recorded a higher par so maybe the 
growbeam are slightly less but pfk were measuring them for coral growth
not plants
hope this helps
matt


----------



## ceg4048 (3 May 2010)

*Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.  EI t*

Yes it does help. Thanks for that mate.  

As suspected, nearly 600 micro moles at the surface is quite a bit of light. Seems too high to be true actually, but lets take it at face value.

Here are some very rough numbers for comparison; a typical 50W T5 outputs somewhere around 100 micromoles and by about 20 inches down away from the bulb, the energy drops to around 40 micromoles.

If we assume that half power of your Phasor weapon delivers half the PAR then this is on the order of 300 micromoles. So that's about 3 of the equivalent T5 bulbs, or 150W T5 when the unit is operating at half power.

The Light Compensation Point (LCP) for most plants is somewhere between 35 and 85 micromoles, depending on the species. LCP is considered the minimum required light. Any more light drives plants to higher growth rates, which has to be supported by appropriate nutritional increase.

Cheers,


----------



## tyrophagus (3 May 2010)

*Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.  EI t*

These are the planted tank units, not the marine units.

You can measure light in mols? I thought that was a unit of molecular weight!  Now I'm feeling out of depth   .  

My lights are 40cm from the surface of the tank and the tank is 45cm deep, the substrate is approx 5cm - 15cm deep. 

I have reduced the lights to 25% of max output for 5 hours with a 1 hour ramp up and down either side.  lights on for total 7 hrs.


----------



## tyrophagus (3 May 2010)

*Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.*



			
				mdhardy01 said:
			
		

> Pfk say that at the surface they produced 585 umols and at 60cm deep
> this droped to 130 umols
> they say the marine White recorded a higher par so maybe the
> growbeam are slightly less but pfk were measuring them for coral growth
> ...




So does that mean that at 45cm the light should be approx 245umols when the unit (marine) is at 100%

If so then at 25% phasor weapon power the light delivers 61 umols at substrate level in a 45cm tank.  So by dropping to this level I fall between the LCP of 35 - 85 umols.

Have I made to many assumptions


----------



## ceg4048 (3 May 2010)

*Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.  EI t*

Yep, if Matt's reported numbers are valid, and if the relationship between power settings and delivered PAR is linear as assumed, then this is a rational assumption. Having never used LEDs, I can only go by the reported values and by how the tank is responding. Try this for a few weeks and see what happens. In a new setup, the lighting needs to be very low anyway because the plants are not very efficient after being flooded.

Cheers,


----------



## Garuf (3 May 2010)

*Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.  EI t*

Ceg, Am I right in thinking the average/optimal level at substrate is usually 30umols? Or have I got the units wrong?


----------



## ceg4048 (3 May 2010)

*Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.  EI t*

Hi Gareth,
             30 micromoles is just a low light value, that's all. That might be optimal for a non-CO2 tank but there really isn't an optimal lighting unless matched by a corresponding CO2 concentration value. The two are inseparable. The combination of the two yields a growth rate, so optimal depends on what growth rate you want. :idea: 

Cheers,


----------



## tyrophagus (3 May 2010)

http://4e.plantphys.net/article.php?ch=t&id=131

A quick google led to a site regarding plant physiology. Interesting.


----------



## Garuf (3 May 2010)

*Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.  EI t*

Hmm, I'm sure I'd read that was the value Amano opted for or achieved but I can't actually find any proof of that. 

Best of luck with the LED's I'm waiting for mine to arrive to build a similar fixture.


----------



## ceg4048 (4 May 2010)

*Re:*



			
				tyrophagus said:
			
		

> http://4e.plantphys.net/article.php...e unless you really screw things up.
> 
> Cheers,


----------



## tyrophagus (6 May 2010)

*Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.*

Ok so today after 3 days without a water change I replaced about 75% water.  The lights are on for 6 hours at 25% of the the rated capacity of the LED lights.  My co2 is green despite me trying to get it to yellow.  I have no fish so I assume I can pump as much co2 into the tank as I like.  I have a lot plants turning to mush!  80% are fine but I've lost 20%.

I have upped the co2 to "to many bubbles to count".  To much light and to little co2 seems to be the most likely cause.  I'm rather frustrated by this but I know I need to patient.

At least I have no algae at the moment.


----------



## ceg4048 (7 May 2010)

*Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.*



			
				tyrophagus said:
			
		

> ...My co2 is green despite me trying to get it to yellow...


This part is incongruous mate. It's not theoretically possible, unless there is something wrong with the bromo blue or unless you are using dropchecker water that's tainted somehow. Can you give us two pH readings? One just before lights on and the second just after lights out?



			
				tyrophagus said:
			
		

> ...I have no fish so I assume I can pump as much co2 into the tank as I like...


 YES!

Cheers,


----------



## ghostsword (7 May 2010)

*Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.  EI t*

Hi, even with fish you can pump CO2 to very light green levels, so if you got no fish pump as you wish!


----------



## jcastell (13 May 2010)

*Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.  EI t*

Good God! I NEVER knew LED lights could be THAT strong.

If you want to halve your light intensity double the distance from source to light (since light radiates inverse square), who knows you might have sufficient ceiling room, and you might welcome the extra light going out into the room.

I was really hoping to use one of these LED lights in a new setup since they cost next to nothing to run!!


----------



## sanj (14 May 2010)

*Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.  EI t*



			
				Garuf said:
			
		

> Hmm, I'm sure I'd read that was the value Amano opted for or achieved but I can't actually find any proof of that.




I think that was from the PAR testing MR Barr did on several tanks a couple of years ago. I believe he found that 30-40 PAR was recorded at substrate level on most of them. I saw the post on the planted tank not long ago.


----------



## tyrophagus (18 May 2010)

*Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.  EI t*

Thanks for your help folks   

I have decreased the strength of the lighting and increased the CO2 (yellow) and the plants are growing again.

I have to have 15 - 20 drop per sec to turn it yellow.  I need more time to tweak this but when I last tried to turn it down it swung back to green and the plants looked unhappy.


----------



## ceg4048 (20 May 2010)

*Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.  EI t*

OK mate, well it's good that you can see a distinct correlation between the injection rate and plant health. There should now be little doubt that CO2 uptake is a matter of life and death. Always question the status and integrity of your CO2 delivery - Always. Even when you think it might be good. Immediately perish the thought and think about ways of improving it. I make it a policy that whenever someone reports difficulty, and  says "I know my CO2 and flow/distribution are good", then within approximately 0.030 microseconds, I immediately conclude that the person is suffering poor CO2/flow/distribution.

At some point, if you choose to resume a higher lighting profile, you know now that an injection rate increase must accompany the proposed higher energy level.

Your flow/distribution method is now also extremely suspect. If your TMC Phasor disruptor is only set to "Stun", i.e. 25%, and if you are still forced to drive the dropchecker into the yellow just to avoid Carbon starvation, then this bodes ill for higher energy level settings (and certainly bodes ill for adding fish). 

I note that you have mounted a single Pratt & Whitney JT9D-7R4 High Bypass Ratio Turbofan engine mounted in the right side front. As a long term strategy, you may wish to consider the switch to ganged spraybars mounted along the back wall connected a higher throughput rated filter. Or you may want to play with the Turbofan's position to see if you can garner a more positive impact on distribution.

Check these threads for discussions regarding the impact of flow on CO2 uptake:
inline devices 
Help - Algae Outbreak! 

Cheers,


----------



## tyrophagus (29 May 2010)

*Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.  EI t*

So I have good growth just after a water change BUT this seems to drop off over the next week as I move towards my next water change.  As the week progresses I develop a hydrocarbon shiny layer on the surface of the tank and the plant growth slows.   

Clive has covered this scum layer on the surface in separate posts and it represents a problem with the co2, light, flow or nutrients.  The plants are stressed.  So given my co2 drop checker is yellow and the led lights are set to "stun" rather than "vapourise" i don't think they are the problem.  

Either my co2 distribution sucks or I'm short of npk/ trace.  

So I like my my Gucci glass to much to have a spray bar at present Clive.   8) 
I'm willing to consider changing but I think I have good flow and ok distribution of co2.  My filter is rated at 1700l/hr and probably delivers half that for a 180l tank.  The flow starts along the front of the tank and the outflow is in the back corner on the same side.  I have a vortech mp10 in the back right corner (same side as the outflow inflow) facing towards the front of the tank.

This creates a circular flow and although I'm not following the perceived wisdom of putting the outflow and inflow in the same corner, I am creating extra flow from the back to the front on the right with the vortech.  I have that set to a low flow rate because otherwise my plants are blown around to much. But then maybe I should reconsider my flow...

So then to nutrients.  I have been dosing 3/8 kno3 and 1/8 kphos and 1/8 trace following the EI alternate day pattern.  I have seen some yellowing of leaves on some plants.  

So tonight I realized that my ferts were incorrect.  I have increased to 6/8 KN and 2/8 KP (I have a 1/8 tsp measure so work in eighths)

Is that correct for a 180l and do I need to add magnesium?  I have been unable to get a mg level for my tap water from the water board, they say it's not a legal requirement to measure so they don't.


----------



## ceg4048 (29 May 2010)

*Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.  EI t*



			
				tyrophagus said:
			
		

> So I have good growth just after a water change BUT this seems to drop off over the next week as I move towards my next water change.  As the week progresses I develop a hydrocarbon shiny layer on the surface of the tank and the plant growth slows.


Yep, good old Swindon water is high in CO2 coming out of the tap. Also, when you do a water change you typically lower the water level and expose the plant tissues to air so they absorb CO2. This explains why you see better growth after the water change. This is a strong indication right off the bat that you have marginal CO2. Are you sure you are using a 4dkH water in the dropchecker? Could it be that you have a false yellow?



			
				tyrophagus said:
			
		

> So I like my my Gucci glass to much to have a spray bar at present Clive.   8)


Yes, I totally understand. You Gucci types are all about furniture.  You know, they do sell Gucci Spraybars..



			
				tyrophagus said:
			
		

> I'm willing to consider changing but I think I have good flow and ok distribution of co2.  My filter is rated at 1700l/hr and probably delivers half that for a 180l tank.  The flow starts along the front of the tank and the outflow is in the back corner on the same side.  I have a vortech mp10 in the back right corner (same side as the outflow inflow) facing towards the front of the tank.
> 
> This creates a circular flow and although I'm not following the perceived wisdom of putting the outflow and inflow in the same corner, I am creating extra flow from the back to the front on the right with the vortech.  I have that set to a low flow rate because otherwise my plants are blown around to much. But then maybe I should reconsider my flow...


Well, I mean, you MUST solve this problem. It' just shouldn't be that difficult. I reckon that you should at least play with a spraybar, just to see, know what I mean? Just to find out for yourself. You don't have to confess to your Gucci brethren (I won't tell them). Just don't take any pictures so there's no evidence...
Does the vortech have some intermediate setting, or can you play with positioning so the disruption is less severe?



			
				tyrophagus said:
			
		

> So then to nutrients.  I have been dosing 3/8 kno3 and 1/8 kphos and 1/8 trace following the EI alternate day pattern.  I have seen some yellowing of leaves on some plants.
> 
> So tonight I realized that my ferts were incorrect.  I have increased to 6/8 KN and 2/8 KP (I have a 1/8 tsp measure so work in eighths)
> 
> Is that correct for a 180l and do I need to add magnesium?  I have been unable to get a mg level for my tap water from the water board, they say it's not a legal requirement to measure so they don't.


OK, yeah, a 180 is a 45 G tank so it needs double the values of the 20G standard tank. No big deal. Nutrients are the easiest thing to fix. Just add more of everything is my motto.

I think you can add a couple of teaspoons of MgSO4 at water change. Again, no big deal.
At least you can now answer the question "Should I dose half EI to start?" The correct answer is "NO!"

Cheers,


----------



## tyrophagus (6 Jun 2010)

*Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.  EI t*

Clive I think I need to investigate how to appropriate a clear acrylic spray bar.  I see there are some diy solutions on the forum.

Regarding the surface scum I have reason to believe that it is not an oil based layer but a solid.  I can remove it with a net in about 2 minutes.  It sits in the net
 as a soapy bubbly film.  I wonder if this has something to do with my hard water and high co2 levels.  Is this layer not a calcium carbonate?  When I break the surface film the opaque layer folds into solid white particles that sometimes start to sink.

Can this be something produced by the plants?  It's not an oil.

Does it not have something to do with water chemistry rather than than plant physiology?


----------



## CeeJay (6 Jun 2010)

*Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.  EI t*

Hi tyrophagus


			
				tyrophagus said:
			
		

> Regarding the surface scum I have reason to believe that it is not an oil based layer but a solid. I can remove it with a net in about 2 minutes. It sits in the net
> as a soapy bubbly film. I wonder if this has something to do with my hard water and high co2 levels.


Highly unlikely.
I have hard water (Thames Water) and running DC in the yellow. Surface is like a mirror. 
I had this scum in my early days of planted tanks, but with the help of the guys round here, got it sorted.
Sort your plant health and your surface scum will disappear   


			
				tyrophagus said:
			
		

> Can this be something produced by the plants? It's not an oil.


Most definitely.


			
				tyrophagus said:
			
		

> Does it not have something to do with water chemistry rather than than plant physiology?


No. If you have surface scum in a planted tank, it usually the plants telling you they are not happy. Sort the plants and all will be well.


----------



## ceg4048 (6 Jun 2010)

*Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.  EI t*

Yeah, I totally agree with Chris. Don't fall into denial mate. The scum is like a megaphone warning you of impending danger. If it's not oil due to lipid ejection then it's ejection of carbohydrates. This tells me distribution is a serious issue. No need for acrylic for now, just get some PVC first and experiment with length, hole placement and hole size. It's cheap and easy. Do you see what I mean about placing a priority on furniture? The most stylish furniture in the world cannot help you to grow better plants. My equipment looks like it was designed by Fred Flintstone & Barney Rubble but it works a treat. Once you get the plants healthy then you can find a way to get your Gucci-ware to work properly. I'm not sure exactly why you're having difficulty with this particular set of lily pipes to be honest though. I lambast them a lot just to have a bit of fun but they shouldn't be this bad. Can you show us a close-up photo of the pipework?

Cheers,


----------



## tyrophagus (11 Jun 2010)

*Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.  EI t*

Clive I will try get something posted this weekend that's shows my flow and pipework.  I'd like to continue this thread on my journal page as it's relevant to my tank and process I'm following to solve my problems. 
http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=11074


----------

