# Staghorn Algae causes other than CO2?



## neofy705 (20 Dec 2022)

Hello all,

I've set up my tank around 3 months ago. 
I got away with little to no algae but the last few weeks I'm struggling a bit with staghorn. 
I think co2 is not a problem. Lime green to yellow and circular flow. 
Could it be lack of nutrients? I only dose 4ml of TNC complete per day and change 35% water a week. 

Interestingly staghorn algae grows everywhere, on driftwood, tall stem plants, carpeting plants. Background, foreground, low flow and high flow areas. 
I mechanically removed all visible algae last thursday and it's reappeared worse than before already. 

Hydrogen peroxide and excel work on driftwood but melt the moss and monte carlo so I avoid using them. 

The tank:
Fluval Roma 200L
Chihiros wrgb 2 slim at maximum 
Flow rate around 3000lph (fluval 307 and hydor koralia wavemaker)
Co2 using bazooka diffuser
Tropica soil with tropica substrate 

Relatively high bioload: 8 otos, 5 honey gourami, 10 juvenile albino cories, 16 rummynose tetras and around 30-40 shrimps (amano, cherries, crystal) 

Should I increase the amount of fertiliser? Adjust the flow or CO2?


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## xZaiox (20 Dec 2022)

I personally associate staghorn algae with organic pollution. When I had my first tank setup, I had it covering everywhere in thick clumps, and putting in some elbow grease to clean everything worked wonders.

When you perform tank maintenance, do you use a gravel siphon to remove any debris settled on the substrate and plants? Doing this, as well as deep-cleaning the filter and pipes ought to help. Also be mindful of how you feed your fish; make sure all is eaten. I used to feed with the filter and wavemaker on, but small parts would fly everywhere and end up settling on plants. I now turn the filter and wavemaker off so that the food falls in one area, and it gives the corys an easier time finishing the last bits.

Lastly, ensure that your plants are growing healthily, since unhealthy plants will themselves contribute to organic pollution, although from your picture they appear healthy.


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## neofy705 (20 Dec 2022)

I use a gravel cleaner on the front and sides of the aquarium as it's very difficult to safely clean the central area with shrimplets and plants in the way. 

I deep cleaned the filter and pipes today and last month. I'm guilty of feeding a lot as I never had so many fish in one tank before. Lots of shrimps and cories means no leftovers but maybe too much poop. 

Plants are growing well. A bit slowly but healthily. 

So you are saying feeding less and better husbandry might do the trick? 

I'll try feeding with filter and wavemaker off for a few days. If anything it will help me understand how much to actually feed. 


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## xZaiox (20 Dec 2022)

You can also use something like a turkey baster to direct targeted bursts of flow at specific locations. This is useful for densely planted areas. If areas are left alone for a while, then the amount of detritus that comes flying out can be pretty impressive. I do this during water changes - blast areas of dense plants with the turkey baster while simultaneously vacuuming what comes out with the gravel vac. It helps prevent anything from building up in the first place if done regularly.


neofy705 said:


> So you are saying feeding less and better husbandry might do the trick?


I definitely can't comment on the *amount* you're feeding since I haven't observed you feed, but it's something to think about for sure. I personally feed my top and mid level fish pellets for about 30-60 seconds once per day, and then drop some sinking pellets for my bottom dwellers (corys, kuhlis, pleco etc). The sinking pellets are fully eaten within 10-15 mins or so. I do this while keeping an eye on the weight of the fish - so far they're all nice and plump. If you see that your fish appear skinny, then they likely need more food.

As for the husbandry, I also cannot say for sure, as we don't really know what causes any algae, but my experience with staghorn makes me believe that organic pollution is a key part of it.


neofy705 said:


> I'll try feeding with filter and wavemaker off for a few days. If anything it will help me understand how much to actually feed.


Yeah I think this is a good idea. I turn the flow completely off every single day for feeding. It definitely results in way less food pollution.


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## PARAGUAY (20 Dec 2022)

I would wave your hand just about the substrate when doing a w/c  after as much algae manually removed as possible. Your light is at maximum? Definitely turn it down. 3 months your in the early stage so it common for algae issues, Don't be mislead by a  drop checker move it around the tank a little or temporary add one more. It's possible flow issue . Good maintenance is essential in a CO2 system with w/c


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## tigertim (20 Dec 2022)

I have a 100 liter plus tank and dose 30 ml of Tnc completete a week which is slightly more than you with a tank half the size , i would up your dosage for a few weeks and see if that helps.


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## neofy705 (20 Dec 2022)

PARAGUAY said:


> I would wave your hand just about the substrate when doing a w/c  after as much algae manually removed as possible. Your light is at maximum? Definitely turn it down. 3 months your in the early stage so it common for algae issues, Don't be mislead by a  drop checker move it around the tank a little or temporary add one more. It's possible flow issue . Good maintenance is essential in a CO2 system with w/c


The light is the slim version of the wrgb2. Which is about 50% weaker. Max brightness is about 3600 lumens and my tank is 50cm deep. I think the light is not strong enough even at max setting. I might be wrong though. Well i hope I'm wrong as I'm really considering upgrading to the full fat wrgb 2 or even the pro version. 

I followed your advice. I put another drop checker on the opposite end with the least amount of flow. Still lime green almost yellow. 

I'm starting to think it's a husbandry issue as moss is badly affected and might be because it's trapping detritus or it's melting underneath. I don't know how else to improve the flow. I see bubbles everywhere in the tank. The algae is really unsightly. Don't let the photo I uploaded in the original post fool you. It was right after I mechanically removed the algae and trimmed. 

A closer look:


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## neofy705 (20 Dec 2022)

tigertim said:


> I have a 100 liter plus tank and dose 30 ml of Tnc completete a week which is slightly more than you with a tank half the size , i would up your dosage for a few weeks and see if that helps.


Thanks. Upped it to 6ml. So 42ml per week.


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## Tim Harrison (20 Dec 2022)

For a heavily planted tank like yours I'd be dosing the weekly recommended dose of TNC Complete every day. 
Either way, staghorn is largely due to a build up of organics, so make sure you stay on top of maintenance, especially filters and water changes.
Good news is, if you persevere it's relatively easy to get rid of.


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## jolt100 (20 Dec 2022)

Have you tried increasing the water changes to reduce the organic pollution levels? Either 50% + once a week or 35% twice a week. 
Cheers


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## neofy705 (20 Dec 2022)

Tim Harrison said:


> For a heavily planted tank like yours I'd be dosing the weekly recommended dose of TNC Complete every day.
> Either way, staghorn is largely due to a build up of organics, so make sure you stay on top of maintenance, especially filters and water changes.
> Good news is, if you persevere it's relatively easy to get rid of.



I'm worried if I do that the shrimps will die. Mainly because of the nitrogen level. But I feel comfortable doing 3x the recommended dose. Maybe it's time to switch to salts so I can keep the nitrate level under control. 

Will the algae disappear on its own when I get to the bottom of the problem or will it need to be manually removed anyway??


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## Tim Harrison (20 Dec 2022)

neofy705 said:


> I'm worried if I do that the shrimps will die.


What shrimp do you have? If they're Cherries and Amano, both are as tough as old boots and won't even notice.

It's not an inorganic nitrate fertz problem. It will be a dissolved and solid organic waste issue. Organic waste is the sum total of the fish feces, urine, plant decomposition from dead leaves and leakage, bacteria waste, rotting driftwood, fish food etc, anything that can be broken down.

Keep your tank and filter very clean and do regular and substantial water changes, perhaps 50% 3 times a week, and it should disappear on its own. Thereafter, 50% once a week.
But you can help it along by pipetting LC directly onto it. Switch off your filter first though so the LC gets chance to work. You'll know when it has, the staghorn will turn red-pink or purple-ish.


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## neofy705 (20 Dec 2022)

Tim Harrison said:


> What shrimp do you have?
> It's not a nitrate problem. It will be a dissolved and solid organic waste issue.
> Keep your tank and filter very clean and do regular and substantial water changes, perhaps 50% 3 times a week, and it should disappear on its own. Thereafter, 50% once a week.



Amanos, crystal reds and cherries. Current all types are berried (a first for me). Gives me no leeway with the parameters. As I'm at the top end of hardness and ph for crystals and low end for cherries. What was I thinking? I'm new to high tech tanks and new to shrimps. It's a difficult tank to balance. 

Temp 23C, ph 6.5-7.5, kh 1-2, gh 5-6. 

I'll keep my eye on the filter as it was disgusting when I cleaned it the other day. I'll be doing two 35% water changes a week until I see improvement.


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## xZaiox (20 Dec 2022)

neofy705 said:


> I'm worried if I do that the shrimps will die. Mainly because of the nitrogen level.


There is some speculation that organic forms of nitrate may be the risky type, and that nitrate in salt form is less harmful. There have been many people experimenting with dosing nitrates in the hundreds of ppm range with no apparent effect on livestock. I can't comment on the legitimacy of this, as I'm not qualified to, but it is something I likely believe. Many studies in the wild seem to show harmful effects from relatively low amounts of nitrates, yet as hobbyists we just don't see it replicated in our tanks.


neofy705 said:


> But I feel comfortable doing 3x the recommended dose. Maybe it's time to switch to salts so I can keep the nitrate level under control.


I think I speak for nearly everyone on ukaps when I say - definitely switch to dry salts. They are vastly cheaper, potent and allow for a much tighter control of what you wish to dose.


neofy705 said:


> Will the algae disappear on its own when I get to the bottom of the problem or will it need to be manually removed anyway??


My experience is both - the thick clumps may stick around, and some of the small bits may die off on their own. The best strategy is to remove as much as you can, and then keep up with good practices. When good practices are maintained, it should stop growing and spreading.


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## Tim Harrison (20 Dec 2022)

neofy705 said:


> I'm worried if I do that the shrimps will die.


I don't think it'd be a problem.









						Crystal red shrimp and Estimative Index
					

Some folks in the USA have been telling folks about CRS and how sensitive they are to fertilizers, and to temprature.     I've had some for well over a year now in 2 tanks and with and without fish(Botia sidthmunki, Galaxay rasboras), other shrimps(Amano) in high light, ADA AS and EI dosing...



					www.aquaticquotient.com


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## dw1305 (20 Dec 2022)

Hi all,


neofy705 said:


> .........I'll keep my eye on the filter as it was disgusting when I cleaned it the other day. .....


I'd guess that you can take out some of the media. When you have planted tank you have <"plant / microbe nitrification"> and that is more efficient than <"microbe only"> nitrification. Have a look at <"The order of filter media in Oase Biomaster">

Cheers Darrel


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## neofy705 (21 Dec 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'd guess that you can take out some of the media. When you have planted tank you have /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/70l-planted-first-tank.69440/#post-696179']plant / microbe nitrification[/URL]"> and that is more efficient than /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/is-expensive-bio-media-worth-it.67468/page-6#post-669951']microbe only[/URL]"> nitrification. Have a look at /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/the-order-of-filter-media-in-oase-biomaster.67732/#post-671350']The order of filter media in Oase Biomaster[/URL]">
> 
> Cheers Darrel



I read the post u linked. Makes me feel silly for spending so much money on Matrix. My canister filter is full of it. 2L of it. Sandwiched between foam and polishing pads. And a touch of purigen. The sponges are absolutely disgusting. The polishing pads and foam I just replace (I cut to size a bigger pad). Matrix itself is clean. But the bucket I rinse the prefilter sponges and foam pads becomes full of mulm. 

Why would removing some of the media be beneficial tho? Genuine question. 


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## PARAGUAY (21 Dec 2022)

Moss is probably the first to collect detrius and a small tube to vacuum it off every water change and keep it trimmed. will sort that out. When you say the filter gets filthy full of gunk, it's normal to have dirty water when rinsing filter media. You could try replacing any fine sponges for more coarse ones very gradually of course. That will help stop clogging and give better flow.l would keep the Matrix and Purigen


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## _Maq_ (21 Dec 2022)

xZaiox said:


> Many studies in the wild seem to show harmful effects from relatively low amounts of nitrates, yet as hobbyists we just don't see it replicated in our tanks.


Direct - primary harmful effect of nitrates, their toxicity, is low. Secondary effects are significant because they alter species composition and food chain. Hypertrophy begins at about 1 mg N per liter. Obviously, this does not apply to our tanks.


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## dw1305 (21 Dec 2022)

Hi all,


neofy705 said:


> But the bucket I rinse the prefilter sponges and foam pads becomes full of mulm.


We think that Staghorn algae (_Compsopogon caeruleus_) may be associated with higher levels of <"dissolved organic matter  (DOM)">. I don't mind <"mulm in the tanks">, but I want to make sure there is enough oxygen so that <"it is fully oxidised"> and this is <"more difficult to guarantee"> in a fully stuffed  filter.


neofy705 said:


> Makes me feel silly for spending so much money on Matrix. My canister filter is full of it. 2L of it. Sandwiched between foam and polishing pads.


No, you are good, it lasts for ever and <"Seachem Matrix"> (pumice) is <"fine as a filter media">. It is <"Seachem's advertising"> that <"I have the issue with">, not the actual filter media.

Personally I'm not keen on <"floss or fine foam"> and I want to keep all of the mechanical filtration <"outside of the filter body">. I use a <"big foam block on the filter intake">, others will use an <"OASE type filter with pre-filter etc">.


neofy705 said:


> Why would removing some of the media be beneficial tho? Genuine question.


It is all to do with keeping all the filter media oxygenated. Have a look at <"New filter - which one?">.

Basically plants are very good at removing all forms of <"fixed nitrogen">, and that includes the nitrate (NO3-) produced by microbial nitrification.  We want the filter to act as a <"nitrate factory"> (<"Anoxic denitrification in canister filters?">) and to do this we need to ensure that the water doesn't become deoxygenated within the filter.


dw1305 said:


> It is the sealed nature of the canister filter that makes anaerobic denitrification such a dangerous concept. A <"finite amount of oxygen"> enters the filter, and if the Biochemical Oxygen Demand (BOD) <"exceeds that dissolved oxygen supply"> you run the real risk of ammonia levels building up.
> 
> You can mitigate for any potential build up of <"fixed nitrogen"> by having a <"back-up ammonia removal system">, ideally <"plant based">.


cheers Darrel


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## neofy705 (20 Dec 2022)

Hello all,

I've set up my tank around 3 months ago. 
I got away with little to no algae but the last few weeks I'm struggling a bit with staghorn. 
I think co2 is not a problem. Lime green to yellow and circular flow. 
Could it be lack of nutrients? I only dose 4ml of TNC complete per day and change 35% water a week. 

Interestingly staghorn algae grows everywhere, on driftwood, tall stem plants, carpeting plants. Background, foreground, low flow and high flow areas. 
I mechanically removed all visible algae last thursday and it's reappeared worse than before already. 

Hydrogen peroxide and excel work on driftwood but melt the moss and monte carlo so I avoid using them. 

The tank:
Fluval Roma 200L
Chihiros wrgb 2 slim at maximum 
Flow rate around 3000lph (fluval 307 and hydor koralia wavemaker)
Co2 using bazooka diffuser
Tropica soil with tropica substrate 

Relatively high bioload: 8 otos, 5 honey gourami, 10 juvenile albino cories, 16 rummynose tetras and around 30-40 shrimps (amano, cherries, crystal) 

Should I increase the amount of fertiliser? Adjust the flow or CO2?


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## Tim Harrison (21 Dec 2022)

Absolutely, no need for floss or fine foam in a planted tank. I binned the floss pad many years ago. It made no difference to water quality but impeded flow quite markedly especially when full of gunk. I tend to just use a coarse sponge prefilter and Eheim Substrat Pro. I don’t use very much of that either.


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## jaypeecee (21 Dec 2022)

Hi @neofy705

Firstly, I'm having problems with my PC. With that caveat in mind, I firstly suggest that you take a look at the following site:









						Staghorn algae - Aquascaping Wiki
					

Red algae in the aquarium




					www.aquasabi.com
				




Staghorn (Compsopogon) algae prefers HCO3- (bicarbonate) as a source of inorganic carbon. Bicarbonate is present at higher water pH values - say, 7.5 to 8.0. What is the pH of your tank water?

JPC


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## neofy705 (21 Dec 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @neofy705
> 
> Firstly, I'm having problems with my PC. With that caveat in mind, I firstly suggest that you take a look at the following site:
> 
> ...



Hello JPC,

I have read that and cut down on additional Fe a few weeks ago. 
Ph in my tank fluctuates between 6.5-7.5. (1 pH drop from CO2 injection). 

I'm adding a bit of nt labs kh plus and seachem equilibrium. My tap kh is 0 and gh is 3. So I add those to make it kh 2 and gh 6. I'm unsure if those have bicarbonate in them. 

I mechanically removed as much algae today and got rid of most of the moss as it was covered in algae. I'm currently doing a 40% wc using the turkey blaster at the same time. 

I was thinking that maybe all those botanicals for the shrimps are the root cause! Indian almond leaves, cones, pods. The leaves were sort of falling apart. 


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## jaypeecee (21 Dec 2022)

neofy705 said:


> Ph in my tank fluctuates between 6.5-7.5. (1 pH drop from CO2 injection).


Hi @neofy705 

May I ask what you are using to measure pH? If pH turns out not to be a factor, then all those botanicals may well be the culprit.

JPC


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## neofy705 (21 Dec 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @neofy705
> 
> May I ask what you are using to measure pH?


Just a pH pen from amazon which I calibrated. I'm getting an apera ph meter by the end of the week tho. What am I looking for with the pH? A lower pH?


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## MichaelJ (22 Dec 2022)

neofy705 said:


> I'm worried if I do that the shrimps will die.


I'm pretty conservative with regards to what changes I subject my livestock to and I always consider the impact on the livestock before plants.  If the tank is otherwise stable with respect to CO2, a couple of things to worry about with your shrimps is elevated levels of Copper and Zinc (i.e. if your targeting high levels of Fe with your TNC) or too low or too high levels of Calcium/Magnesium with minerals/tap or fluctuating TDS - especially too high TDS which should be kept below 150-200 ppm (300-400 uS/cm). As far as I can tell 42ml TNC Complete / wk in 200L shouldn't be a problem if you're making the change over a couple of weeks - shrimps (or fish for that matter) don't like rapid changes. I would however watch out for accumulation given that your only doing 35%/wk (or 35% twice wk).  This is why I only do  front loading WC-targeting of fertilizer/minerals.   Otherwise shrimps are known to be pretty tough with respect to most other water parameters - lore has it that when adapted they can bring brass knuckles to a knife fight and still win ... 

Cheers,
Michael


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## neofy705 (22 Dec 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> I'm pretty conservative with regards to what changes I subject my livestock to and I always consider the impact on the livestock before plants. If the tank is otherwise stable with respect to CO2, a couple of things to worry about with your shrimps is elevated levels of Copper and Zinc (i.e. if your targeting high levels of Fe with your TNC) or too low or too high levels of Calcium/Magnesium with minerals/tap or fluctuating TDS - especially too high TDS which should be kept below 150-200 ppm (300-400 uS/cm). As far as I can tell 42ml TNC Complete / wk in 200L shouldn't be a problem if you're making the change over a couple of weeks - shrimps (or fish for that matter) don't like rapid changes. I would however watch out for accumulation given that your only doing 35%/wk (or 35% twice wk).



Hi Michael, 

I'm very cautious when it comes to shrimps. This is the reason of 35% wc and aging water etc. I'm not really targeting anything. I don't want maximum plant growth or anything. I want a healthy stable system. That being said I already set my dosing pump from 4ml a day to 6ml a day. Do you think that's a problem?

I've ordered a new TDS meter as my last one swam with the fishes the other day. Last time I checked my tds was around 235. 

As for accumulation it is a concern but i hope my tank is too heavily planted for it to be an issue? TNC complete (even at 3x dose) is nowhere near a full blown EI dosing and hopefully a 35% wc is enough (considering the norm is 50% for EI). 

Cheers,
Neo


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## MichaelJ (22 Dec 2022)

neofy705 said:


> That being said I already set my dosing pump from 4ml a day to 6ml a day. Do you think that's a problem?


Hi Neo,
Not a problem at all with respect to Copper or Zinc.  With 42 ml TNC Complete per week (7 x 6 ml), a 35% WC weekly the total max accumulation of Copper in your 200L tank will amount 0.011 ppm, and  0.06 ppm of Zinc.  (assuming no uptake and no Zinc or Copper in your water source).  You can easily increase it to 8 or 12 ml a day without issues - just make the increase slowly - say 2 ml increments per week, so the shrimps can adapt to the slightly higher TDS due to the increased dosing.


neofy705 said:


> I've ordered a new TDS meter as my last one swam with the fishes the other day. Last time I checked my tds was around 235.


Its a bit on the high side (or could be, depending on your TDS meter), but should be okay. What water source are you using? If tap water, what is the TDS of the straight tap?  Are you adding anything, such as as minerals, to the WC water?

Cheers,
Michael


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## neofy705 (22 Dec 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> Hi Neo,
> Not a problem at all with respect to Copper or Zinc.  With 42 ml TNC Complete per week (7 x 6 ml), a 35% WC weekly the total accumulation of Copper in your 200L tank will amount 0.00743 ppm, and  0.039 ppm of Zinc.  (assuming no uptake and no Zinc or Copper in your water source).  You can easily increase it to 8 or 12 ml a day without issues - just make the increase slowly - say 2 ml increments per week, so the shrimps can adapt to the slightly higher TDS due to the increased dosing.
> 
> Its a bit on the high side (or could be, depending on your TDS meter), but should be okay. What water source are you using? If tap water, what is the TDS of the straight tap?  Are you adding anything, such as as minerals, to the WC water?
> ...


Great! Thanks for the calculation. 

I use tap water. It's very soft. Kh 0 gh 3 ph not measurable due to low kh and tds around 80. 
After adding seachem equilibrium it goes up to 170. I add some kh plus to bring it closer to 200 so the shrimps don't get shocked from tds drop.


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## MichaelJ (22 Dec 2022)

neofy705 said:


> Great! Thanks for the calculation.



I updated the numbers to account for the theoretical max accumulation  before WC (instead of after). Just for comparison, the Cu/Zn levels in my shrimp tank with the traces I am dosing are at least twice as high as the numbers above and still remain within a very safe margin of any harm even at my relatively low pH (6.3'ish last time I measured).


neofy705 said:


> I use tap water. It's very soft. Kh 0 gh 3 ph not measurable due to low kh and tds around 80.


Excellent water!


neofy705 said:


> After adding seachem equilibrium it goes up to 170.


Equilibrium adds a lot of Potassium - Above you said your targeting 6 GH on top of the tap's 3 GH... that is ~12 gram of Equilibrium to raise it an additional 3 GH for your 35% (70L) WC - this will add somewhere around 35 ppm of Potassium (K) - that's not harmful to your fish or shrimps in itself, but it adds considerably to your TDS and such high levels are unnecessary for your plants.  You can get rid of that if you just dose Magnesium Sulphate (MgSO4 / food grade Epsom Salt) and Calcium Sulphate (CaSO4 / food grade Gypsum Salt) which are the two ingredients in Equilibrium that raises your GH (the tiny amount of Fe in Equilibrium contribute as well, but you get that from the TNC Complete). As a bonus it will allow you to finely tune you're Ca and Mg amounts - as I suspect your Mg contents might be very low due to the geology where your tap water is sourced. 



neofy705 said:


> I add some kh plus to bring it closer to 200 so the shrimps don't get shocked from tds drop.


You don't really need much more than 1 KH. If you slowly dial down your TDS over time there shouldn't be a significant drop in TDS between WC. My Shrimp tank sits around 100 ppm and the fluctuation between water changes is around 5-10 ppm. which is far within safe range.  (I also do 35% WC but only every 11-12 days)

Cheers,
Michael


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## neofy705 (22 Dec 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> I updated the numbers to account for the theoretical max accumulation  before WC (instead of after). Just for comparison, the Cu/Zn levels in my shrimp tank with the traces I am dosing are at least twice as high as the numbers above and still remain within a very safe margin of any harm even at my relatively low pH (6.3'ish last time I measured).
> 
> Excellent water!
> 
> ...


This has been so very helpful Michael thanks. 
Out of curiosity do u keep cherry shrimps in that water? I'm only adding kh and gh for the cherries.


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## jaypeecee (22 Dec 2022)

neofy705 said:


> Just a pH pen from amazon which I calibrated. I'm getting an apera ph meter by the end of the week tho. What am I looking for with the pH? A lower pH?


Hi @neofy705

As I said above, higher pH is likely to encourage growth of Staghorn Algae because of the higher bicarbonate in the water. And, in post #22, I suggested that  pH figures in the range 7.5 to 8.0 may be typical of this water. Please take a look at the attached graph which shows the relationship between the forms of dissolved CO2, etc. as pH changes.




.


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## jaypeecee (22 Dec 2022)

Hi again, @neofy705 

I suggest that you measure the tank water pH with your new pH meter and let us have the figure. Then, we can decide how best to proceed.

JPC


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## neofy705 (27 Dec 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi again, @neofy705
> 
> I suggest that you measure the tank water pH with your new pH meter and let us have the figure. Then, we can decide how best to proceed.
> 
> JPC


Hello again,
I got the new ph meter. It's an apera pc60. 

I measured the ph at 5pm (about 5h after lights on) and the ph was 6.1! But that didn't worry me as much as my tds value. The new TDS meter shows 450ppm compared to the cheap tds meter I has before that was showing 250! 

Am I correct in thinking that 450ppm is going to wipe my crystal shrimps long term? 

Staghorn algae seems to have grown back but not as bad as before. I have noticed a bit of green fuzz on some old leaves that I didn't have before. 

Cheers,
Neo


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## MichaelJ (27 Dec 2022)

neofy705 said:


> The new TDS meter shows 450ppm compared to the cheap tds meter I has before that was showing 250!


Hi Neo, Thats quite a difference. What meter did you get? Post a link to the actual product!

The pH is a bit on the low side but likely ok -  I've measured 6.0 ( likely below) in my shrimp tank without issues.

As for the staghorn your struggling with I suggest lowering your light intensity a bit (possibly add some floating plants), increase flow around the areas where you see staghorn. And just resume a higher WC frequency with an increased dosing of ferts as discussed above.   You can have staghorn at low pH and high pH - doesn't really matter. pH levels may exacerbate the problem, but pH by itself is not the problem, so stop focusing on that 

Cheers,
Michael


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## neofy705 (27 Dec 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> Hi Neo, Thats quite a difference. What meter did you get? Post a link to the actual product!


Hi Michael,
Previous one was likely an HM TDS3 knock off. 
The new one is an apera pc60.

I've done some reading and it seems that the previous one was using a 0.5 conversion factor whilst the apera uses a 0.71 factor (that can ve changed).


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## jaypeecee (27 Dec 2022)

neofy705 said:


> I got the new ph meter. It's an apera pc60.


Hi @neofy705 

The Apera PC 60 looks like a nice piece of kit.

A pH of 6.1 would be unlikely to encourage the growth of Staghorn algae - in my opinion.

Not being a shrimp-keeper, I am unable to advise about shrimp.

The difference in TDS readings is gobsmacking! As the Apera PC60 also has an EC option, what figure is it showing?

JPC


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## jaypeecee (27 Dec 2022)

Hi @neofy705 

Please take a look at the scientific paper below:



			https://www.researchgate.net/publication/278847407_First_record_of_the_tropical_invasive_alga_Compsopogon_coeruleus_Balbis_Montagne_Rhodophyta_in_Flanders_Belgium
		


I suggest that you read the Abstract of this document where it talks about strong water current.

JPC


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## neofy705 (27 Dec 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @neofy705
> 
> Please take a look at the scientific paper below:
> 
> ...


I can definitely say that the areas that are in the high flow are the ones mostly affected. 

I'll check tomorrow what the EC value is.

I do trust the apera kit. Just a bit surprised at how off my tds is. I'm actually worried now about my crystal shrimps and whether something's leaching minerals or chemicals into my water.


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## jaypeecee (27 Dec 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> pH levels may exacerbate the problem, but pH by itself is not the problem


Hi @MichaelJ  & @neofy705 

Yes, it's the inorganic carbon that is required by the Staghorn algae. And, pH will determine the form this takes . That's what I was hoping to illustrate in post  #32.

JPC


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## neofy705 (20 Dec 2022)

Hello all,

I've set up my tank around 3 months ago. 
I got away with little to no algae but the last few weeks I'm struggling a bit with staghorn. 
I think co2 is not a problem. Lime green to yellow and circular flow. 
Could it be lack of nutrients? I only dose 4ml of TNC complete per day and change 35% water a week. 

Interestingly staghorn algae grows everywhere, on driftwood, tall stem plants, carpeting plants. Background, foreground, low flow and high flow areas. 
I mechanically removed all visible algae last thursday and it's reappeared worse than before already. 

Hydrogen peroxide and excel work on driftwood but melt the moss and monte carlo so I avoid using them. 

The tank:
Fluval Roma 200L
Chihiros wrgb 2 slim at maximum 
Flow rate around 3000lph (fluval 307 and hydor koralia wavemaker)
Co2 using bazooka diffuser
Tropica soil with tropica substrate 

Relatively high bioload: 8 otos, 5 honey gourami, 10 juvenile albino cories, 16 rummynose tetras and around 30-40 shrimps (amano, cherries, crystal) 

Should I increase the amount of fertiliser? Adjust the flow or CO2?


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## MichaelJ (27 Dec 2022)

neofy705 said:


> Am I correct in thinking that 450ppm is going to wipe my crystal shrimps long term?



It's bad that you measure such a wide discrepancy.   Out of precaution I would personally assume the higher number.    One way to get a bearing on the accuracy of your meters would be to make a pure NaCl  (regular table salt) mixture in distilled water.   1 gram dissolved in 1 liter of distilled water (or half or quarter those quantities) to verify your meters (let the solution reach room temperature). This should yield around 2000 uS/cm or close to 1000 ppm at x0.5 and 1400 ppm at x0.7.

Cheers,
Michael


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## jaypeecee (28 Dec 2022)

Hi @neofy705 &Everyone,

According to the blurb, the Apera PC60 is supplied with calibration solutions. And this includes an EC solution of 1413 microSiemens/cm.

Here's the blurb:









						PC60 Premium Multiparameter (pH/EC/TDS/Salinity/Temperature) Pocket Tester/Meter Kit-Apera Instruments
					

The Apera Instruments PC60 Multi-parameter Tester/Meter simply tests pH/EC/TDS/Salinity/Temperature for regular aqueous solutions such as hydroponics, aquaculture, pools& spas, tap/drinking water, water treatment, cooling towers, etc.




					aperainst.com
				




JPC


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## neofy705 (28 Dec 2022)

Hello @jaypeecee and @MichaelJ

It does come with calibration solutions. I just got some DI water to calibrate it. 

Is using tap water without seachem equilibrium as usual a good way of reducing the tds or will it be too stressful for the shrimps?


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## jaypeecee (28 Dec 2022)

neofy705 said:


> Is using tap water without seachem equilibrium as usual a good way of reducing the tds or will it be too stressful for the shrimps?


Hi @neofy705 

That's one for the shrimp-keepers. Unfortunately, I'm unable to help you there. But, you're unlikely to have to wait for long before help arrives!

JPC


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## dw1305 (28 Dec 2022)

Hi all,


jaypeecee said:


> And this includes an EC solution of 1413 microSiemens/cm.


That is the <"0.01 Mol. KCl standard">, if you want to make up any more.

cheers Darrel


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## MichaelJ (28 Dec 2022)

neofy705 said:


> Is using tap water without seachem equilibrium as usual a good way of reducing the tds or will it be too stressful for the shrimps?


Hi Neo,  You have to make sure there is enough Calcium and Magnesium in your water in order for the shrimps to continuously  build their exoskeleton and successfully molt.  You're using the Equilibrium to raise your Ca/Mg contents an additional 3 GH over your tap water to reach a total of 6 GH. I advice you  to continue to do so until you have an alternative solution on hand despite the elevated TDS - as mentioned in my post above (using CaSO4/MgSO4). If you suddenly stop using Equilibrium your GH would eventually drop 3 degrees and that is not a change your shrimps will appreciate as they will most likely quickly suffer from Calcium and Magnesium deficiency.

Cheers,
Michael


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## neofy705 (29 Dec 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> Hi Neo,  You have to make sure there is enough Calcium and Magnesium in your water in order for the shrimps to continuously  build their exoskeleton and successfully molt.  You're using the Equilibrium to raise your Ca/Mg contents an additional 3 GH over your tap water to reach a total of 6 GH. I advice you  to continue to do so until you have an alternative solution on hand despite the elevated TDS - as mentioned in my post above (using CaSO4/MgSO4). If you suddenly stop using Equilibrium your GH would eventually drop 3 degrees and that is not a change your shrimps will appreciate as they will most likely quickly suffer from Calcium and Magnesium deficiency.
> 
> Cheers,
> Michael


Understood. What I meant was to temporarily stop using equilibrium to drop the tds down a bit. I have just replaced 50% of the water without equilibrium. 
The apera was pretty accurate but I calibrated it anyway. I changed the conversion factor to 0.6 (as a middle ground between the 0.71 it was set to and the 0.50 of the previous tds meter). When doing the maths the two meters give more or less the same reading. TDS is now 340 using the apera.

Surprisingly gh is still 5 in the tank. Tap water is now 120ppm tds instead of 80. Makes me wonder if the water quality changed due to extra additives added to prevent frozen pipes or something.


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## LMuhlen (29 Dec 2022)

I may be wrong here, but my understanding is that despite TDS/conductivity being a standard measurement for shrimp, they don't really care what the conductivity is, since they don't really try to conduct electricity. What they care for is the overall concentration of each salt in water, and the TDS measurement adds all those concentrations together, giving a general idea of pureness of the water.

If your TDS is high, but your GH is on point, reducing the GH won't help because it is the other salts that affect TDS that are in excess. You would end up with a problem of a lack of Ca/Mg and an excess of whatever else is raising your TDS, and they don't cancel out.


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## MichaelJ (29 Dec 2022)

LMuhlen said:


> If your TDS is high, but your GH is on point, reducing the GH won't help because it is the other salts that affect TDS that are in excess. You would end up with a problem of a lack of Ca/Mg and an excess of whatever else is raising your TDS, and they don't cancel out.


I agree.

Just to reiterate: Shrimps need a good  amount of Ca and Mg for sure (22-30 ppm Ca, 7 -  10 ppm Mg is often quoted as a rule of thumb), that would be my first order of concern. Secondly, they need moderately low TDS  (80-200 ppm or 160-400 uS/cm) to help them better  regulate osmotic pressure (essentially salt concentration in their body) which they have a much harder time with than fish - especially rapid change to OP. They wont thrive at elevated TDS levels - whatever salts constitutes with TDS. It will cause osmotic stress. That said, shrimps are fairly adaptable and shrimps breed under elevated TDS levels may be more resilient, but there is of course a limit.

Cheers,
Michael


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## neofy705 (30 Dec 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> I agree.
> 
> Just to reiterate: Shrimps need a good  amount of Ca and Mg for sure (22-30 ppm Ca, 7 -  10 ppm Mg is often quoted as a rule of thumb), that would be my first order of concern. Secondly, they need moderately low TDS  (80-200 ppm or 160-400 uS/cm) to help them better  regulate osmotic pressure (essentially salt concentration in their body) which they have a much harder time with than fish - especially rapid change to OP. They wont thrive at elevated TDS levels - whatever salts constitutes with TDS. It will cause osmotic stress. That said, shrimps are fairly adaptable and shrimps breed under elevated TDS levels may be more resilient, but there is of course a limit.
> 
> ...


Makes a lot of sense. Thank you. I made sure that the gh was at least 5 after the water change. As I think it is the upper limit for crystals and lower limit for cherries. 
What I'll have to do is keep up with the water changes with equilibrium. (Even if it will take longer to drop the tds. )

Algae is still an issue. I had to trim the plants hard. I really find it hard to pinpoint the source now. Co2 is on point. Flow is high and fairly uniform. (As pointed before maybe too high). I don't add additional iron. My lights are not nearly bright enough to be an issue. Especially at the bottom of the tank where PAR should be pretty low.


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## MichaelJ (30 Dec 2022)

neofy705 said:


> As I think it is the upper limit for crystals and lower limit for cherries.


Hi Neo, It really depends a lot on what constitute the GH...  It start's to get problematic when the Calcium content gets too high (say up in the 40'ties ppm or above)  as it will make the shell too hard for the shrimps to molt properly especially if combined with a calcium rich diet.  What is essential with shrimps is that you have enough of both Calcium and Magnesium, but not too much (the Ca:Mg ratio is often suggested to  be 3-4:1 ... Personally I use 3:1). The role of Calcium is to build the exoskeleton and the role of Magnesium in proper proportions is to help the shrimps absorb the Calcium. This is why you need both in appropriate quantities - regardless of what type of shrimp you are keeping.  For example. if your water is 8 GH and made up from only Ca (~57 ppm) that would be highly problematic. However if the 8 GH is made up from 36 ppm of Ca and 12 ppm of Mg that would likely not be a problem.  On the lower end  4 GH from say 18 ppm of Ca and 6 ppm of Mg would probably be fine as well, *if *food sources are rich in calcium such as mineral sticks, scalded kale, spinach etc.   You often hear crystal shrimps being quoted for a narrower GH range, but that is mostly a TDS concern rather than a GH concern as they do tend to be somewhat more sensitive to higher TDS than Cherry shrimps.  All this are more general considerations that you cant go wrong following, but also keep in mind that the resilience of your particular shrimps rests a lot on the conditions they were breed under. Thats why its good to know that bit as well if possible when introducing shrimps. What all shrimps really dislike is wide rapid swings in water parameters.

Hope this helps!

Cheers,
Michael


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## neofy705 (1 Jan 2023)

MichaelJ said:


> Hi Neo, It really depends a lot on what constitute the GH...  It start's to get problematic when the Calcium content gets too high (say up in the 40'ties ppm or above)  as it will make the shell too hard for the shrimps to molt properly especially if combined with a calcium rich diet.  What is essential with shrimps is that you have enough of both Calcium and Magnesium, but not too much (the Ca:Mg ratio is often suggested to  be 3-4:1 ... Personally I use 3:1). The role of Calcium is to build the exoskeleton and the role of Magnesium in proper proportions is to help the shrimps absorb the Calcium. This is why you need both in appropriate quantities - regardless of what type of shrimp you are keeping.  For example. if your water is 8 GH and made up from only Ca (~57 ppm) that would be highly problematic. However if the 8 GH is made up from 36 ppm of Ca and 12 ppm of Mg that would likely not be a problem.  On the lower end  4 GH from say 18 ppm of Ca and 6 ppm of Mg would probably be fine as well, *if *food sources are rich in calcium such as mineral sticks, scalded kale, spinach etc.   You often hear crystal shrimps being quoted for a narrower GH range, but that is mostly a TDS concern rather than a GH concern as they do tend to be somewhat more sensitive to higher TDS than Cherry shrimps.  All this are more general considerations that you cant go wrong following, but also keep in mind that the resilience of your particular shrimps rests a lot on the conditions they were breed under. Thats why its good to know that bit as well if possible when introducing shrimps. What all shrimps really dislike is wide rapid swings in water parameters.
> 
> Hope this helps!
> 
> ...


Hi Michael and a happy new year 😊 
As always you were spot on with your response but I have a (potentially silly question). How do I measure Ca and Mg? I can't seem to find any mainstream test kits. I guess people know the ratios because they are using salts. I tried to do ensure that there's no deficiencies in ca and mg by adding equilibrium. The problem is that equilibrium makes the tds skyrocket. Definitely not ideal but with the current situation I have to pick either optimal tds or optimal gh. 
I do believe the high tds is somehow linked to the algae problem. 

Would trimming without doing a water change result in an increase of tds (from whatever the plants are "bleeding out")?

Neo


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## MichaelJ (2 Jan 2023)

neofy705 said:


> How do I measure Ca and Mg? I can't seem to find any mainstream test kits. I guess people know the ratios because they are using salts. I tried to do ensure that there's no deficiencies in ca and mg by adding equilibrium.


Your best bet for obtaining that information for your tap water would be a water report from the city. However, given that you’re in the UK (I assume)  you probably wont have much Mg in your tap water for geological reasons.   So if you’re measuring 3 GH it probably means that you’re mostly measuring Calcium. With the additional 3 GH from Equilibrium that you used you would get around 4.5 ppm of Mg which is low relative to the total Calcium content. As mentioned in my post above I would advise you just to purchase the salts needed to solve the Ca/Mg predicament and avoid the excess you get from Equilibrium.  If your tap TDS comes out at  around 100 ppm, the additional salts and fertilizer etc. _should_  allow you to maintain below 200 ppm. (400 uS/cm). Which is fine.

Cheers,
Michael


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