# Plant problems



## kellyboy47 (8 Aug 2011)

Hi,
I hope someone can help me with some well needed advice. I have a well stocked Juwel Vision 180 that uses 2 x 35w T5 lamps which are on from 2pm to 1am. The plants in my tank are 2 varieties of Anubias, Java Ferns and Crypts.
The Anubias are not looking that great so I wondered what I might be doing wrong. *I wanted to attach an image of the problem but do not know how to   *The Java Ferns normally end up like this as well.

I do a 40ltr (22%) water change weekly and have been adding 1 capful of Flourish Excel every other day. I realise the plants I have in my tank are slow growers (but they are hardy) and are a necessity considering the fish species I have in my tank !

I have looked at using a DIY CO2 system but have read that they only benefit 30 gallon tanks or smaller. I do not want the cost of buying an expensive on the shelf CO2 system (don't think my other half would like all the paraphenalia that comes with it !) so I was going to change to EasyLife Carbo together with Easylife Profito. Would that be a good choice ?


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## Bobtastic (8 Aug 2011)

Such a good post it was worth posting twice!

11 hours of light is a lot by any standard...Using 2xT5 for that length of time you should defo be pumping Co2 in pressurised and EI dosing.

To post pictures u need to upload them to a hosting site eg Photobucket and use the


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## kellyboy47 (8 Aug 2011)

Hi Bob,

Not sure if this has worked but here goes !!




With regards to CO" can I not use the liquid carbon ? only not ytoo sure what EI dosing or how complicated it is. Also would a DIY CO2 system not suffice ?

Trev


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## Westyggx (8 Aug 2011)

Not an expert but looking at the pictures it looks like they are missing nutrients, i think its iron that causes holes in the leaves.


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## Alastair (8 Aug 2011)

Definitely. I'd look at getting one of the ready mixed ferts from on of the sponsors.


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## Bobtastic (8 Aug 2011)

Yep, I can see your picture.

I think the root (no pun intended) of your problem is the duration of your light. I would recommend turning your lights down to between 5-7 hrs.

The more light you have the greater the plants will demand Co2 and nutrients. So if you reduce the amount of time your lights are running the you'll be able to use EC/Excel + fert. 

Can you give us a full tank shot, plus the full spec of your tank? Filtration, additional power heads, and anything that's put into the tank.


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## dw1305 (8 Aug 2011)

Hi all,
That looks to be a macro-element deficiency. You definitely need some more nitrogen (N) and possibly potassium (K) as well. Personally with your plants I don't see any need for CO2 or to go down the complete EI route. 

You have more light than you need, as others have suggested, and either diffusing or reducing it and/or a shorter photo-period is a good idea.

Try having a look at "James' Planted Tank",  <http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/calculator.htm>.

I'd start by adding some K and N, bought as KNO3 from one of our sponsors (and the addition worked out via the "calculator"), and if your plants don't green up within about 10 days I'd buy an "all in one mix" from one of our sponsors.

cheers Darrel


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## Bobtastic (8 Aug 2011)

dw1305 said:
			
		

> Personally with your plants I don't see any need for CO2 or to go down the complete EI route.



I agree, your listed plants have low demands and are the ones that are recommended for low light/low tech tanks. Follow Darrell's advice, he wont steer you wrong.   

I still think the deficiency is due to to much light. Mainly cos they need more ferts due to the amount of light and they aren't available...


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## kellyboy47 (8 Aug 2011)

Well here goes......My tank is a Juwel Vision 180 and uses a Juwel 600 internal pump (600 litres ph). I also use an Enheim 200 that only feeds a diffuser for 5 hours once the lights go out. I feed the plants with one capful of Seachem Flourish Excel every other day. I have 26 'inmates' ranging from small cherry barbs to a 4" Plec. The reason I only have Anubias, Crypts & Java Fern is because thw current 'inmates' destroy the normal type of plants you find in a collection so I needed to find hardy plants :!:


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## Alastair (8 Aug 2011)

Flourish excel is only Liquid carbon though, your plants aren't getting fed even a basic fertiliser, so because as previously said that you have your lights on for such a length of time the plants are using up any nutrients from the water quickly then being starved. 
Like bob said cut your lighting down to about 7 hours, and try to invest in am all in one plant feet from one of the sponsors. Any reason you need the diffuser on at night? 
You could also possibly upgrade your pump inside the internal too to get better flow. I'd gladly pop you out a 1000 litre an hour juwel pump I'f you wanted. 
Nice tank by the way, I have the vision 450 and really like it


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## kellyboy47 (8 Aug 2011)

I have cut the lighting down to 5.5 hours....what 'all in one' ferts would you suggest then ? So not Easycarbo supplemented by EasyProfito ?
The diffuser is on because I read somewhere that it would help the plants when the lights go off.

Nice tank....shame about the plants eh !!


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## Alastair (8 Aug 2011)

I'd stick with the easy carbo if you wanted, but the But the profito doesn't contain nitrogen or phosphates which is what your plants look like their lacking and it would work out more expensive. Id go for this from our sponsors which is basically like tropica nutrition plus but much cheaper. All you've got to do is add the right amount of water to the bottle. I had great results with this stuff http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/fert ... s-dry.html. It should last a while too


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## Bobtastic (9 Aug 2011)

As Alastair said earliest Seachem's Excel is only a liquid form of carbon and doesn't contain any ferts like N, P or K which you will find in things like TPN or some other plant food. So I would carry on with whichever liquid carbon you are using but also pick up an all-in-one fertiliser, like the ones suggest by Clive and Alastair. 

Once you are add those and the plants are looking healthier you could extend the light time a bit, but at the first sign of a problem you'd should turn them down or add more Carbon/Co2 and ferts.


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## dw1305 (9 Aug 2011)

Hi all,


> I had great results with this stuff ...."http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/... It should last a while too


 That would be my suggestion for a total nutrient solution as well. 

cheers Darrel


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## kellyboy47 (17 Aug 2011)

Thanks to everyone for their advice which is very much appreciated. I am now using ferts from aquariumplantfood.co.uk (who have been very helpful) and Easycarbo. The tank lights are now on for 5 hours a day.
I still have a diffuser running for 5 hours overnight as I was led to believe this would help the fish so perhaps someone could confirm whether that is the case or not ?
How long will the ferts etc take to show any improvement in the plants as I am still experiencing the same problems as per photo ? I will gladly PM photos to forum members of the problem if that is of any help ?
I currently change 40 litres of water per week (approx 22.5%)....should I increase this ?
Can anyone suggest plants other than the _*Anubias, Crypts and Java Fern *_that I could keep with the inhabitants of my tank as I would love to get some of the brilliant aquascaping effect that I have seen from some members tanks ?
My tank :-
7 x Madagascan Rainbows
3 x Bosemani Rainbows
3 x Buenos Aires Tetras		
3 x Yellow Barbs
2 x Cherry Barbs
2 x Opaline Gouramis
1 x T-Bar Cichlid
1 x Plec				
1 x Bronze Catfish
1 x Red Tailed Shark		
1 x Gold Tiger Barb		
1 x Clown Loach
I realise there are a lot of questions here but I am beginning to get to the end of my tether trying to get things right notwithstanding the costs involved   
If things don't improve then my only option is to aquascape with silk / plastic plants which obviously is a last resort  
Thanks in anticipation
Trev


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## Bobtastic (17 Aug 2011)

kellyboy47 said:
			
		

> I currently change 40 litres of water per week (approx 22.5%)....should I increase this ?



When dosing EI it is usual to change 50% of your water on a water change day. I'm not sure how the all-in-one type of ferts work tho... So it may not need to be as much. That being said I have always changed at least 50% when I have done any of my water changes.


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## kellyboy47 (17 Mar 2012)

Hi guys,

Perhaps someone could help me with this problem (see attached pic) and wondered whether it is a light or nutrient problem. I dose 6 days a week (after lights out) 15ml APF ferts and about 2.5 ml Easycarbo and have been doing for quite sometime. Plants are growing well apart from the unsightly  'brown' marks on the leaves....lower leaves are also affected..I do a 25% water change every week and my plants are Echinodorus, Java Fern and Anubias....Lights are on 7 hours daily between 2pm and 9pm





Thanks
Trev


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## dw1305 (18 Mar 2012)

Hi all,
The dark marks are an algal film growing on the plant leaves. My suspicion is that they are growing in a build up of carbonate "chalk" deposits on the plant leaves, probably with GSA (Green Spot Algae) and Diatoms.  

You definitely need to leave the diffuser running at night, the combination of low plant load and large fish load will give elevated levels of CO2, and probably of most nutrients as well. If you add in Essex tap water as well, you have a very nutrient rich soup even before you go any further, you can still have deficiency problems (and it looks like you do) as one or more of essential plant nutrients (Mg, Fe or K?) may be unavailable. 

Usually I would suggest adding some Red Ramshorn and MTS snails, but because of the size and nature of the fish load in this aquarium, I'm not sure this will work, or whether you will ever be able to have really good plant growth in this tank. I think you would need a much larger plant mass to get any sort of balance in the tank.

It is an eclectic mix of fish.


> 7 x Madagascan Rainbows
> 3 x Bosemani Rainbows
> 3 x Buenos Aires Tetras
> 3 x Yellow Barbs
> ...


I can send you some floating plants that might help (PM if you want some), but I've never run a tank with anything like that amount of fish, and I wouldn't contemplate trying to deal with the potential bioload (as they grow) without a really big planted wet and dry trickle filter ("a phyto-filter"), and a lot more water changes.

The advantage of floaters is they have access to aerial CO2 and light, so will be able to make use of available nutrients.

I've had systems with a huge bioload (when we used to do the land-fill leachate work), but these didn't have any fish in them.

I'm sorry it isn't a very helpful answer, but you will need some-one with experience of keeping planted tanks with lots of fish to give you some more advice.

cheers Darrel


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## kellyboy47 (18 Mar 2012)

Hi Darrel,

Thanks for the reply and the invaluable info.  Yes you are right I do have a varied fish stock and the list you quoted is scarily now even longer so I know I am overstocked. Either I will have to remove some to a LFS or wait for their numbers to diminish through natural causes although I must say I havnt lost that many considering. Your suggestion of the snails is a thought but I do have a Clown Loach so that probably wouldn't work.

Are you saying then that I have too much CO2 in my tank because I was about to buy a CO2 pressurised system ? and why would the floating plants help ? I also do not have a very powerful pump /filter as it is the bog standard 1000lpr  model. Do you think in this scenario then that a more powerful powerhead to work alongside the Juwel might be useful ?


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## dw1305 (18 Mar 2012)

Hi all,


> Yes you are right I do have a varied fish stock and the list you quoted is scarily now even longer so I know I am overstocked. Either I will have to remove some to a LFS or wait for their numbers to diminish through natural causes although I must say I havnt lost that many considering.


Yes, I think you need to reduce your fish stock considerably. In all seriousness I think you all ready had about twice the maximum bioload you should have. This then links in to: 





> Are you saying then that I have too much CO2 in my tank because I was about to buy a CO2 pressurised system ?


 Yes I am, the fish will be producing CO2 all the time as they respire, and at night the plants will be respiring, but not photosynthesising, and adding even more CO2. All the plants you have don't need additional CO2. With apologies for the quality of the photo, but this is my "kitchen" tank, after it had had a trim.



and  the tanks at the back of the teaching lab.



These tanks are low tech, low nutrient and no CO2. 

Your plants aren't growth limited by lack of carbon. As well as providing CO2, your fish are producing ammonia, which will be converted to nitrate by filter bacteria, assuming there is sufficient oxygen present. You will also be getting additional Nitrogen (N), Phosphorus (P) and Potassium (K) via your tap water, from both agriculture and sewage treatment. 


> and why would the floating plants help ?


Floating plants would help by definitely not being CO2 limited, the have access to aerial CO2, which is at about 400ppm. They may also reduce the light levels. The yellowing your plants show may be to do with access to unbalanced light, CO2 and nutrients. Light levels drive photosynthesis and nutrient demand.

cheers Darrel


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## kellyboy47 (18 Mar 2012)

Hi Darrel,

I will trim back some of the worse affected plants and do some thinning out. So would I have been better off with T8 lighting then as they are not so bright ? and yes if the offer is still there I would like to try some floating plants so I will PM you.
I still might purchase the Dennerle CO2 system that someone has offered me for use in the future and if I don't utilise it I could always sell it on.
What did you think of my thoughts on providing more flow throughout the tank with an additional powerhead ? and I promise I won't add anymore fauna !

Thanks
Trev


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