# Cheap T5 at my local hardware.



## master3z (1 Apr 2012)

There are cheap T5 tubes being sold at my local hardware.. Can these be use to grow aquarium plants?


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## Antipofish (1 Apr 2012)

master3z said:
			
		

> There are cheap T5 tubes being sold at my local hardware.. Can these be use to grow aquarium plants?


 Hi there.  The answer to this is yes.  Plants will grow with any light.  The more light the more they grow (and require fertiliser and CO2 proportionately).  The light spectrum is more a personal choice from an aesthetic aspect generally.


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## master3z (1 Apr 2012)

With time,does the lightning intensity decreases? i should replace the bulb later? if yes after how long?


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## Alastair (1 Apr 2012)

master3z said:
			
		

> With time,does the lightning intensity decreases? i should replace the bulb later? if yes after how long?



No it doesnt mate. The colour may appear not as bright to our eyes after a while though 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hixy (3 Apr 2012)

Antipofish said:
			
		

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Hello so plants will grow with any light,they dont need to be 6500k is that correct


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## Antipofish (3 Apr 2012)

hixy said:
			
		

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Hi Hixy, yes mate that is correct    You would probably want to avoid the spectrums about 10000k but the rest is really personal preference in terms of colour rendition in your tank with the plants and fish you have.  This blog here is excellent reading.  You don't even have to spend a fortune on aquatic tubes as our friendly LFS owners would have us all believe.  Neither do you have to replace the tubes every 6 months !

http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/lighting.htm


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## ceg4048 (3 Apr 2012)

Antipofish said:
			
		

> You would probably want to avoid the spectrums about 10000k


No, this is not true at all. There is no Kelvin temperature bulb you would want to avoid unless you don't like the color. 10,000K bulbs are excellent when used in combination with other colors which mitigate the possibly overwhelming look of blue/indigo produced by 10,000K bulbs, which are right up the alley of plant chlorophyll. This has been previously explained in the thread;
growlux bulbs

Cheers,


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## Antipofish (3 Apr 2012)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

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TYPO !  I meant to say *above* 10,000k and should have qualified that by saying it is down to personal preference and that I find that above that level things appear to blue.  Ceg is quite right that 10000k can be very useful in conjunction with other spectra.


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## ian_m (4 Apr 2012)

Years ago, when just keeping fish (and a few plants) I tried a cheap general purpose T8 tube for my Juwel Vision 180, bought from local hardware store for couple of quid (£4 if I remember). This was to replace a failed Arcadia tube and didn't want to spend £15 odd.

However the cheap light, whilst bright, was a lot more yellow rather like a normal tungsten light bulb light.

Main issue was, within a couple of days/weeks after installing, algae everywhere. Previously never suffered any algae at all.

Didn't really click the change that cause the algae, however I mentioned this at local Maidenhead Aquatics who said "yes algae this is what I would expect from a tube like this".

Bought a £15 Arcadia tube (Freshwater tube?), much brighter white, fish & plants looked better and algae slowly went away.


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## ceg4048 (6 Apr 2012)

Well I use yellow lights all the time and I don't get algae. It's amazing how people attribute cause and effect. When your algae went away did you the resume the yellow light to see if the algae returned? How can you tell the difference between causality and coincidence? Did you measure the PAR of the two bulbs? Without having control, or even knowing the relative intensities, how can you possibly attribute algal blooms to a color?  I've heard arguments from every camp saying this color or that color causes algae. Most people think blue light causes algae. Marine folks swear that green and red causes algae. 

Cheers,


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## hixy (6 Apr 2012)

Sorry one more question,when ever i go into local b&q i always look for daylights bulbs which they never have.They mainly have warm white bulbs with 3000k on them are these ok to use on planted aquariums,so if i understand a bulb is a bulb and plants will grow no matter what bulbs is used.


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## Ady34 (6 Apr 2012)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Well I use yellow lights all the time and I don't get algae. It's amazing how people attribute cause and effect. When your algae went away did you the resume the yellow light to see if the algae returned? How can you tell the difference between causality and coibcidence? Did you measure the PAR of the two bulbs? Without having control, or even knowing the relative intensities, how can you possibly attribute algal blooms to a color? I've heard arguments from ebery camp saying this color or that color causes algae. Mosy people think blue light causes algae. Marine folks swear that green and red causes algae.
> 
> Cheers,



Hi Ceg,
if we presume the wattage of both types of bulb are equal, and although the colour rendition may not be important, could the change in light spectrum 'throw' the plants a little, much like a change in c02 thus resulting in a transition period in which the algae could temporarily win the battle? Or is changing light the same as changes in water perameters whereby the plants dont really care? 
Cheers,
Ady.


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## master3z (15 Apr 2012)

i have a 60cm deep 3 feet tank.
It is a low tech aquarium atm.
I will go high tech soon because i want to gro carpet plants.
I want to use 24w normal t5 tubes. Will the 24w normal t5 tubes have enough power to reach the bottom of my tank to grow carpet plants?

How many 24w t5 tubes i will need ?


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## ceg4048 (16 Apr 2012)

Ady34 said:
			
		

> ..if we presume the wattage of both types of bulb are equal, and although the colour rendition may not be important, could the change in light spectrum 'throw' the plants a little, much like a change in c02 thus resulting in a transition period in which the algae could temporarily win the battle? Or is changing light the same as changes in water perameters whereby the plants dont really care?


Hi Ady,
Well it's not necessarily about equal wattage, it's about equal PAR. Bulbs of similar wattage may in fact have different PAR and this will affect the plant more so than spectrum. When someone makes a comparison of growth using different bulbs it's important that they are comparing apples to apples, unless they are specifically comparing the differences in PAR for different bulb types. So if you want to compare the effects of yellow light versus red light, then you have to ensure that the PAR is the same for both, and that way you will be seeing differences due to spectrum and NOT due to intensity. This is where people make false connections. For example, I can grow plants with simple Tesco incandescent light bulbs, but incandescent bulbs have a very poor PAR efficiency. They emit mostly heat as infrared. Most of the spectrum is in the yellow. and so only about 12% of the energy output is useful PAR, so this makes incandescent bulbs generally inadequate if we want rapid growth rates, but again, that's because of PAR limitation, not because of the yellow spectrum of these bulbs. Fluorescent tubes have a higher PAR efficiency, perhaps on the order of 25%-30%, Halides emit higher still, perhaps 40%.

Yellow light simply gets processed by a pigment that is different than chlorophyll. This energy is then transferred to the chlorophyll. Pigments such as Phycocyanin process orange and red light, while a pigment such as Phycoerythrin processes blue-green to yellow. The plant simply analyzes the incident wavelengths and produces the pigments necessary to make use of the available colors. The energy absorbed by that pigment is then passed on to the chlorophyll, and the chlorophyll reacts in the same way as if it were excited by it's own native blue and red excitation wavelengths.

Plants have an arsenal of these auxiliary pigments to deal with any range of colors within the visible spectrum so they can't be "thrown off" just because your light is changed to yellowish or greenish. White light is composed of all colors, so the plant is already doing this conversion and already has these pigments in place. Since plants are descended from algae they have pretty much the same pigments as algae. Whatever light algae can use, plants can use. Whatever light plants can use, algae can use. The problem occurs in plants when you have too much PAR. That's when algae wins. They could each care less about colors. In fact, the main job of these pigments is to protect the plant from too much PAR, and they do this by filtering out and rejecting excess PAR and UV by fluorescing away the excess energy. This is what we see so often when plants "color up" in response to higher light intensity. The pigments become visible because they plant has to produce boatloads of them to deal with Klingon Photon Death Ray fanaticism. 

Cheers,


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## Mortis (16 Apr 2012)

Conspiracy theory : Using 10000K bulbs would result in higher production of phycoerythrin which would make plants redder ????


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## master3z (16 Apr 2012)

master3z said:
			
		

> i have a 60cm deep 3 feet tank.
> It is a low tech aquarium atm.
> I will go high tech soon because i want to gro carpet plants.
> I want to use 24w normal t5 tubes. Will the 24w normal t5 tubes have enough power to reach the bottom of my tank to grow carpet plants?
> ...




Need an answer to this.... anyone can help.. ?


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## ceg4048 (16 Apr 2012)

Carpet plants do not really care about normal versus abnormal T5. They care about flow and CO2. You'd better think about that and stop worrying about whether you have enough light. Going high tech does not mean going high light. It means going high CO2, high flow and high nutrition. Lights should be at the very bottom of your list of concerns right now.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Conspiracy theory : Using 10000K bulbs would result in higher production of phycoerythrin which would make plants redder ????


Very possibly. There are a lot of other factors as well though. And it also depends on the plant species. There are a boatload of blue eating pigments, including green chlorophyll, so a plant may not necessisarily use this particular protein. Give it a try mate and see what happens.   

Cheers,


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## master3z (17 Apr 2012)

ok ceg


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## master3z (17 Apr 2012)

are 10000k bulb suppose to be blue in colour?


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## ceg4048 (17 Apr 2012)

I think he means 10,000. Here is a color map of theoretical kelvin temperatures.If you follow the curved line in the middle of the color space you'll see what they are supposed to follow, but they never do. The Kelvin markers show the color where the marker intersects the curved line. if you look at a 20,000K bulb it is an awful party blue. A Tesco incandescent 60W light bulb would be about halfway between the 2000K and the 3000K marker. Normal daylight should be halfway between the 6000K and the 7000K marker.





Have a look at the thread viewtopic.php?f=50&t=555 to get an idea of some of the more popular bulb models if you don't like the look of your bulbs from the hardware store. I've been using the same bulbs found in almost every office building in the world (Osram 840) and these tend to have an orange cast. No big deal, just mix them with some other more bluish/greenish bulbs to get a nice mixed color.

Cheers,


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## Ady34 (17 Apr 2012)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

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Cool, thanks Clive, 
so really we all need PAR meters to more accurately assess our lighting range irrespective of colour renditions or indeed wattage rules. The plants dont care as long as the PAR ratings are within tolerance for available c02 & ferts.


			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Carpet plants do not really care about normal versus abnormal T5. They care about flow and CO2. You'd better think about that and stop worrying about whether you have enough light. Going high tech does not mean going high light. It means going high CO2, high flow and high nutrition. Lights should be at the very bottom of your list of concerns right now.


I know this is slightly off topic too, but we know that 5w/g is the upper limit of lighting efficiency where plant fertiliser uptake rates max out, but is there a proven lowest light level for plant growth, whereby no amount of c02 availibility and ferts will compensate? Also with this in mind, is there a general concensus as to a suitable PAR range at substrate level for plants? .....and if you know, how much are PAR meters and do you measure PAR/are PAR measurements with or without the water in the tank? Sorry for this barrage of Q's
Thanks,
Ady.


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## ceg4048 (18 Apr 2012)

Well, again, 5WPG happened to be the WPG in that persons tank, so we really don't know what the PAR actually was. Since WPG was an easier parameter to deal with at the time, that was the value reported in order to provide a good rule of thumb. Barr often suggests that clubs and forums initiate a "group buy" wherein everyone pitches in to buy a meter or two and they then share the meter. Once each person calibrates his/her lighting, a plot can be created using a spreadsheet formula. The Apogee MQ-200 with submersible probe is popular, and is a very easy tool to use. In Sterling, prices may be on the order of £200 hence the idea of a "group buy". There are other brands, just google for "PAR Meter" or "Quantum Meter". => http://omnima.co.uk/store/catalog/Apoge ... mAod40niwg

The lowest light level for plants is called the Light Compensation Point (LCP) which is discussed in viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2784

Barr recommends a target value of about 40 micromoles at the substrate, which is enough to grow any plant and may not neccessarily grow them quickly, but will keep most folks out of trouble. LCP for most species is below this value.

Cheers,


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## Ady34 (18 Apr 2012)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Well, again, 5WPG happened to be the WPG in that persons tank, so we really don't know what the PAR actually was. Since WPG was an easier parameter to deal with at the time, that was the value reported in order to provide a good rule of thumb.


Doh, of course, its trying to difficult trying to get the wpg rule out of your head, i know its very unlikely, but i suppose he could have been using filament bulbs as discussed before!   
Thanks again for the information, ill have a read through this 





			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2784


 when i have some more time.   
Cheers,
Ady.


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## master3z (19 Apr 2012)

I have a question. 

which is better i put 2x 25W T5 OR i put 1 x50W t5

will they have the same effect?


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## master3z (19 Apr 2012)

How can you tell if this is a t5ho fixture or a t5no fixture?


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## master3z (21 Apr 2012)

Bump


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## ceg4048 (22 Apr 2012)

Hi,
    Sorry, I missed this. I'd always elect to go for the two dimmer bulbs, especially if I can operate them independently. That gives better control. You see, control is the issue. Uncontrolled lighting leads to many problems. 

Also, you will get a better spread of the light using two bulbs, and you can mix and match different bulb colors to get the look you want. Two bulbs, hands down winner.

Cheers,


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## Antipofish (22 Apr 2012)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Hi,
> Sorry, I missed this. I'd always elect to go for the two dimmer bulbs, especially if I can operate them independently. That gives better control. You see, control is the issue. Uncontrolled lighting leads to many problems.
> 
> Also, you will get a better spread of the light using two bulbs, and you can mix and match different bulb colors to get the look you want. Two bulbs, hands down winner.
> ...



Hi Clive, that link didn't work mate, and I am interested in reading the thread.  Can you have another go ?


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## ceg4048 (22 Apr 2012)

Fixed the link but there is something wrong with the thread. It shows me as the OP and it's missing the actual OP's posts. It makes it look like I'm talking to myself, ranting and raving (which I do anyway, but you're not supposed to know that). I'll have to call Paulo to the rescue.

Cheers,


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## master3z (22 Apr 2012)

hey guys how can you tell if a fixture is t5ho or not? 

i have one like ine the photo i posted above,,i have 2x24W t5 in it. 
its written f24/t5 SUN-LUX 10000k on the bulb..


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## Antipofish (22 Apr 2012)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Fixed the link but there is something wrong with the thread. It shows me as the OP and it's missing the actual OP's posts. It makes it look like I'm talking to myself, ranting and raving (which I do anyway, but you're not supposed to know that). I'll have to call Paulo to the rescue.
> 
> Cheers,



Lol, no you normally rant and rave at US ALL for being so dim, LOL.  But we love you all the same     I am sure Paulo will be on it


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## ceg4048 (22 Apr 2012)

master3z said:
			
		

> hey guys how can you tell if a fixture is t5ho or not?
> 
> i have one like ine the photo i posted above,,i have 2x24W t5 in it.
> its written f24/t5 SUN-LUX 10000k on the bulb..


Really, I have no idea about High Output versus Normal Output. The fixture/ballasts seem to be the same but the bulbs sometimes have "HO" written on them. It wouldn't surprise me at all if it turns out that the Term "High Output" is just another marketing phrase. I mean, who wouldn't want to buy something that's rated "High" instead of merely "Normal", right? People go to university and get Master's degrees in Business Administration learning how to suck money out of your pockets with psychology. Just stick the bulb in and turn the lamp on. If it lights then you are OK and you don't need to worry about High versus Normal. As far as I'm concerned, it would be much better to have a dimmable ballast in the fixture so that you can control the lighting level, which is a much more useful technology than High-this or High-that.

Cheers,


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## master3z (22 Apr 2012)

ok ceg..


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## master3z (22 Apr 2012)

if i try to pu an HO bulb on it,,will the ballast burn or get damage?


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## ceg4048 (22 Apr 2012)

No, either the bulb contacts fit into the fixture, or it doesn't. Either it lights when you press the button or it doesn't. If it's an Electronic T5 ballast, which it should be, then you'll be fine.

This is a lot different than those clever folks who overdrive certain ballasts by re-wiring modifications to get it to produce more energy at the terminals. That might be what you're thinking of. But a 24 watt T5 bulb fits a 24 watt fixture regardless, unless it's a special vendors' bulb. So you can insert normal, high output, and even the new "high efficiency" bulbs and the ballast will just carry on.

Cheers,


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## Mortis (23 Apr 2012)

But arent HO bulbs higher wattage ? Obviously they do put out more light compared to a tube the same size but NO.

Eg : a 2ft NO T5 is 14W whereas a a 2ft T5 HO is 24W


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## dw1305 (23 Apr 2012)

Hi all,


> But arent HO bulbs higher wattage ? Obviously they do put out more light compared to a tube the same size but NO. Eg : a 2ft NO T5 is 14W whereas a a 2ft T5 HO is 24W


I've wondered about this as well. I put a 13W T5 and a 14W T5 of the same Kelvin rating next to one another, and there was no comparison between them, the 14W was much, much brighter, but if you put the 14W next to a 24W that difference was much less noticeable. 

I now know this is to do with the ballasts, the 13W one is a 4W - 13W ballast, but the 14W does from 14W - 39W! <https://www.bltdirect.com/product.php?pid=6235> & <http://www.bltdirect.com/products.php?cat=567>

My suspicion would be that the 39W tube wouldn't actually be that much brighter than the 14W tube on a fixture with this particular HF ballast. 

cheers Darrel


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## master3z (23 Apr 2012)

the length of my t5 is 55cm and it is 24W


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