# clay based substrates



## Jack middleton (12 Aug 2009)

does anybody know of any clay based cat litters that are safe? i cant get hold of any tropica or JBL...so this must be the next best thing.

thanks

jack


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## Nick16 (12 Aug 2009)

use akadama!!! make sure its the double red line stuff!!!!


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## Jack middleton (12 Aug 2009)

where can i find it? and how much does it cost?


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## Nick16 (12 Aug 2009)

have a look on ebay mate, its not that expensive, a 14L bag will cost you about a tenner.


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## Polly (12 Aug 2009)

I too wanted to use AKADAMA, but couldn't find it anywhere within 60 miles    and to have it delivered would have cost the same as Fluorite or EcoComplete      So I've used Cat Litter - Tesco's Premium LIghtweight - the PINK one.    But it does need preparing first - at least in _my_ very soft water area - very little in the way of buffers   

Discussions on it's use here

Tesco Cat Litter as a Substrate

and my report on what happened when I used it here, it seems to be slightly different to the stuff available abroad

Tesco Cat litter - Cheap but be careful!

Have 3 tanks with a Cat litter Substrate and tho it's early days they seem to be doing very well and the GH has settled down.   I've written about the biggest one here

http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=7173

don't know if this helps but hope it does


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## Nick16 (12 Aug 2009)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/28-Litres-Aka...s_JN?hash=item4cea10f06a&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

there you go 28L (20Kg) for about Â£27, thats about Â£1 a litre, now compare that to other stuff like tropica and ADA soils!!!!


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## Stu Worrall (12 Aug 2009)

im thinking of taking it (akadama) out of my 60cm shrimp tank. its just too crumbly and dusty for my liking, growth of rooted stuff isnt as good as with my tank with aquasoil in but that may be down to other things like lighting etc

on another side for those using cat litter ive just found a supplier of baked clay which is used for cleaning up oil spills on the floor.  Â£8 for 30 litres and Ive bought 2 bags for my bonsai soils so may try this out on something in the future.  It doesnt have a fragrance like the cat litter either which is handy and the particles are a lot smaller than akadama, more AS size.  It can be bought from Intertruck depots


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## aaronnorth (12 Aug 2009)

try kaizen bonsai for akadama, Â£18 posted for 14litres. They also sell half bags too.


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## plantbrain (12 Aug 2009)

Cat litter works very well, it was suggested here in the USA many years ago, but many just laughed at many folks suggesting it. Akadama and Turface etc Flourite, are all clay fired products, cat litter is softer, like ADA' aqua soil(Think cat litter with macro nutrients/peat), plants seem to like it much more that hard grain clays.
Greensand is another similar product.

Trade off between hard and no nutrients(no mess also), and soft and lots of nutrients(potential for mess).

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Jack middleton (12 Aug 2009)

hi all

i bought 5 litres of clay cat litter for Â£1.69 its got to be the cheapest fertiliser substrate.

it was from pets at home


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## Polly (13 Aug 2009)

Jack, you need to be careful, some cat litters are _very soft_ and turn into mud when in water, they can prevent water movement in the substrate.    They never settle and cloud the water continually      The one which is being used in most people's tanks is a hard clay granule which doesn't crumble or 'emulsify' and is very similar to AKADAMA.    If you've bought the non-clumping, Sophisticat type then you should be ok with it 

The one I've used in my Tanks is not topped by any gravel, in fact it is used on top of soil in the largest tank and I've had no problems at all with it   

If it stays hard after being in a jar of water overnight then it should be ok    (roll it between your fingertips)

I did once experiment with the 'clumping' cat litter in a tank, I planted into a tray of the stuff and topped it with gravel.  The plants weren't very happy and when I removed it the smell of rotten eggs was awful  :?

Hope this helps


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## dsandson (13 Aug 2009)

Hi Polly

I was inspired by Tom's post about cat litter in the USA, so tried to search for something suitable here... and guess what came up when I did some googling? One of your posts! Brilliant.

Anyway, did some more research and came across a few bonsai sites talking about cat litter. The following is the best I've found so far to give a reasonable background and analysis;

http://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basicscatlitter.htm

Seems the Tesco Premium Lightweight Cat Litter is the best stuff. Nice small grain size and very durable. No perfume, just Bi-carb of Soda. I'm no chemist but that shouldnt cause any harm.

Must say I do like the freezer test for the hardness and durability. It also gives the actual reason not to use clumping litters.

I'll have to give it a test, but it looks a good contender to replace the bulk of the Akadama in my 180l at the end of the year.

Dave


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## aaronnorth (13 Aug 2009)

i always reccomend Tesco litter, i think i did to you too Jack


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## Jack middleton (13 Aug 2009)

yeah you did aaron...i ended up buy the P@H stuff it was sooo cheap...im just going to run a test on it...the granules are quite hard though


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## Jack middleton (13 Aug 2009)

it sinks and settles 

im guessing its safe to use then? its 100% clay granules


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## Nelson (13 Aug 2009)

hi jack,
what colour is it.


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## plantbrain (13 Aug 2009)

dsandson said:
			
		

> Hi Polly
> 
> I was inspired by Tom's post about cat litter in the USA, so tried to search for something suitable here... and guess what came up when I did some googling? One of your posts! Brilliant.
> 
> ...



While I personally have not done this, some have suggested partial cooking of the cat litter to make it less messy.
I think you'll see a significant difference between harder sediment types.

It can be enriched also, with KNO3 pre soaking, KH2PO4, etc, Osmocoat added on the bottom for longer term nutrients(Cat litter is not the with any nutrient content itself), mineralize soil(Good for cheaper DIY ADA As options)

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Jack middleton (13 Aug 2009)

nelson said:
			
		

> hi jack,
> what colour is it.


a browny colour...the same colour as tropica plant substrate


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## Nick16 (13 Aug 2009)

plantbrain said:
			
		

> dsandson said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



hi tom. what do you mean by mineralize soil? what is it and where can it be found, thanks


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## Nelson (13 Aug 2009)

thanks.


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## Polly (13 Aug 2009)

> While I personally have not done this, some have suggested partial cooking of the cat litter to make it less messy.



I think you'll find that the Tesco Premium Cat litter and the other pink/brown hard cat litters (Sophisticat Pink etc.) are not messy at all, they've already been baked !     I simply put some in a kitchen sieve and sprayed water through it.   Afterwards there was very little clouding and the small amount that I did get cleared within hours  8)   Now the water stays crystal clear 

Do check how it works with your water tho, I've not read any other example of my own experience with Tesco Premium Cat Litter, but it's not impossible   soaking the cat litter for a week or so definitely helped to settle water parameters in the tank more quickly  

ETA.    I completely forgot, I found that the Cat Litter will stick to my Algae Magnets - the back of them !   So I tried it in a bag of DRY cat litter and the same happened    very strange     The magnet didn't stick to the bag tho     Could it be the iron in it?


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## dsandson (14 Aug 2009)

Nick16 said:
			
		

> mineralize soil



I think what Tom means in Remineralized Soil. Its not a product, but a DIY substrate. I noticed it a while back while looking at one of the US plant sites, think it was the planted tank. Anyway, here's the link;

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...-mineralized-soil-substrate-aaron-talbot.html

It'd be a fascinating thing to try, and very cheap too.



			
				Polly said:
			
		

> I think you'll find that the Tesco Premium Cat litter and the other pink/brown hard cat litters (Sophisticat Pink etc.) are not messy at all, they've already been baked !



I believe this is the key difference between Non-clumping and clumping cat litter, as it the clumping is raw reformed clay. When it touches water it swells and looses its shape, which helps it bind.

I suppose that probably means you might be able to use a clumping cat litter, treat it with diy-TPN+ and bake it to produce a real diy Aqua Soil. Not sure it'll be worth the effort though! You'd have to note that a home oven could never reach the temps of a kiln, but as Tom says that'd probably produce a softer substrate which the plants may prefer.

Dave


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## Jack middleton (14 Aug 2009)

do you reckon its worth pouring a watered down DIY TPN+ onto it before i cap it? im not baking it as my mother wouldnt like cat litter in her oven


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## Nick16 (14 Aug 2009)

Jack middleton said:
			
		

> do you reckon its worth pouring a watered down DIY TPN+ onto it before i cap it? im not baking it as my mother wouldnt like cat litter in her oven


haha, i have had sand in my oven and everything.

only last month we had to get a new one as i was making smoke bombs (potassium nitrate, aka saltpeter) on the stove and it caught alight, !!! the whole kitchen went black


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## dsandson (14 Aug 2009)

Jack middleton said:
			
		

> do you reckon its worth pouring a watered down DIY TPN+ onto it before i cap it?



Hmm, not really. You could pre-soak it with macro-nutrients, a lot like James did in the Akadama sticky at the top of this page. Or put some Osmocote granules in the bottom which would be a slow release fertiliser

http://www.theonlinegardener.com/product.asp?prod=1014769



			
				Jack middleton said:
			
		

> im not baking it as my mother wouldnt like cat litter in her oven



It wasnt really a recommendation, more just thinking aloud, so to speak.



			
				Nick16 said:
			
		

> only last month we had to get a new one as i was making smoke bombs (potassium nitrate, aka saltpeter) on the stove and it caught alight, !!! the whole kitchen went black



 hmm... well maybe Nick16 is brave enough to try it!!   

Dave


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## aaronnorth (15 Aug 2009)

Nick16 said:
			
		

> Jack middleton said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


  

if you get a small amount in a conical flask and light it it will give out sparks like a sparkler  best doing it ouside though


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## plantbrain (15 Aug 2009)

Unlike harder cooked clays, like flourite or Akadama, softer clays will retain and hold far more nutrients.

They are also easier to enrich with macro nutrients.

Still, a DIY Mineralized soil has been done long before APC was even a forum.
Several Brasilian showed ti worked well in higher light CO2 enriched aquarium, but they had no access to KNO3 etc.
So if that is all you have to work with(soils), that's what you go with.

http://www.barrreport.com/co2-aquatic-p ... m+castings

Some on the TPT forum suggest just plain potting soil and mix other items to it.

Still, adding KNO3, KH2PO4 etc to the water column is wise and allows better uptake and transport, offers no problems with algae control either way(we ***know*** algae is not limited by nutrients), you still dose K+, traces, so it's not saving you any work per se.......you still ahve to dose 1-2 things, adding another 1-2 will offer no savings there.
You get better health and longer time frames out of the MS this way.

Some in the "ostrich club" do not understand basic plant fertilization. They insist on not adding the macros, as it's some prevention of algae(it's not), and it's easier(you still have add nutrients to the water column), or that it slows plant growth down(use light, not nutrients t do that). I guess if you wanna do it, that's a fine reason, but there's little sense in riding a bike with a flat tire if you do not have to.

I think many from the sediment only crowd do not like to see water column methods mixed up in their little cliques  
Sort of hypocritical though, they do add nutrients to the water column, everyone does.

Just varying degrees, which matters not to the amount of labor added and algae.

What benefits do sediment macros offer the Wc only person with inert sands etc?
Well, you can forget to dose(who has not done that more than a few times?), and it's much less critical, you can go on vacation and not worry so much about dosing, basically, it makes it easier for you to dose the water column.

The main issue in the past was the myth about algae for MS and for the WC. So the MS folks thought they where limiting algae, but of course, they never tested their theory   WC folks typically had issues with sediments, so they where not interested either. So bring these two groups together is not always an easy sell.
They you have factions claiming BS on both sides. So little truth or demonstrated examples are shown.
Even less testing and a lot of BS is offered on line to argue based of their own speculation, rather than testing or reasoning through it.

Use critical thinking, plant science to wade through this, I think you'll fine at the end of the day, using both together is a really good resilient method for nutrients, no matter if you go non CO2, Excel./Easy Carbo, or CO2 enriched.

Nutrients, by and large are easy.
CO2, light, less so, but once set correctly, they are not bad either

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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