# ramshorn and water quality



## Abcdefg (28 Nov 2016)

Hi,

I am 5 weeks in to my first planted tank (50l) and I'm hoping to add fish at the end of this week when the tank is 6 weeks old.

I have been trying to test water parameters, but I'm using API 6 in 1 test strips and a tetra liquid total ammonia test NH3/NH4.

currently the test result are:

NH3 / NH4 total ammonia is 0ppm and has been for around 2 to 3 weeks at least. (this is measured with the tera liquid test kit)

nitrates are at 100 ppm  (approx) as measured with the test strip

nitrites are at between 2 and 5 ppm as measured with the test strip


It seems likely that the test strips aren't accurate (please correct me if this is wrong, perhaps they are reliable for nitrite?)


I have some ramshorn snails that stowed away on a pinch of fissidens fontanus and where introduced to the tank about 3 weeks ago. there initially seemed to be three, but now there are certainly at least 5 and one of these is minute so I'm wondering if it hatched in the tank.

they race around the wood and moss, and I caught two of them doing what was presumably mating yesterday so it seems like they are reasonably happy.

I'm wondering:

1: Is the fact that they are growing, mating and possibly hatching a sign that the water is ok for fish and the tests are misleading? or can the snails tolarate nitrites (...at least for several weeks). I hope they aren't in there having a bad time, but I'm not sure how to get they out and were I'd put them if they are.

2: if I put some lettuce in, will they all flock to it so I can do a quick census?

Thanks,

Tom


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## sciencefiction (28 Nov 2016)

Yes, snails can tolerate bad water conditions as they can go inside and 'lock their door" to the toxins. But they do have more of a habit walking out of the tank instead...if water conditions are bad. Ramsorn snails can breathe air so they are less vulnerable to toxic conditions..

If you've had ammonia at 0 for 2 to 3 weeks, do a large water change to get rid of the nitrites. One ppm of ammonia converts to roughly 3 ppm of nitrites. Taking into account the delayed multiplication of nitrite consuming bacteria and levels of ammonia possibly leeched by the soil by now, you end up with tens of ppm of nitrite stalking the cycle. Nitrite is toxic to plants...Get rid of it so the tank can get back into a normal cycle, e.g. converting freshly produced ammonia to nitrates. That's the best way to test if your cycle is done. If the tank is uncycled, providing you wait a few days, you'll get a nitrite reading again but small enough not to affect the plants, though it will still be detrimental for any inhabitants. In that case I'd wait again. If the tank is cycled, you'll get no reading for ammonia or nitrites and you're ready to add inhabitants...


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## Abcdefg (28 Nov 2016)

Thanks, 

I was wondering if somehow the cycle had stalled somehow, I have been doing large water changes of about 90% to 95% at least once a week, so I had thought that that would be helping things along. perhaps these are too large?



sciencefiction said:


> If you've had ammonia at 0 for 2 to 3 weeks, do a large water change to get rid of the nitrites. ---> If the tank is uncycled, providing you wait a few days, you'll get a nitrite reading again but small enough not to affect the plants



what sort of range of ppm of nitrite is going to be ok for the plants?

can I ask about filter maintenance routines as well?
I have an external eheim 2071, I have only maintained it once, at around 3 weeks I think, and it didn't seem to be particularly dirty so I only rinsed the wool in some tank water.

I'm wondering if my all-in-one dechlorinator product is messing with the cycle? it's Interpet Bioactive Tapsafe plus, I'm thinking maybe I should switch to Prime or something that only dechlorinates, to make sure I'm not denying the bacteria anything to feed on.


Can I ask about filter maintenance routines as well?

I have an external eheim 2071, I have only maintained it once, at around 3 weeks I think, and it didn't seem to be particularly dirty so I only rinsed the wool in some tank water. how often should I be rinsing the media? and should I be able to feel the biofilm? when I handle the media?

Thanks,

Tom


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## dw1305 (28 Nov 2016)

Hi all,





Abcdefg said:


> I was wondering if somehow the cycle had stalled somehow, I have been doing large water changes of about 90% to 95% at least once a week, so I had thought that that would be helping things along. perhaps these are too large?


The water changes won't effect the nitrifying micro-organisms (they aren't in the water column), it will reduce Nitrate (NO3) and both ammonia (NH3) and nitrite (NO2) if they are present.





Abcdefg said:


> what sort of range of ppm of nitrite is going to be ok for the plants?


Plants can directly take up NO2-, they use _Pistia_ etc in phytoremediation of sewage waste etc. where NO2 levels can exceed 5ppm. 

Because NH3, NO2 & NO3 levels will continually change as nitrification occurs (usually dependent upon oxygen availability) researchers usually look at  Chemical Oxygen Demand (COD) and Biochemical Oxygen Demand (BOD) as a measure of the total pollutant load. <"(Application of _Eichhornia crassipes_ and _Pistia stratiotes_ for treatment of urban sewage in Israel)">. 





Abcdefg said:


> Is the fact that they are growing, mating and possibly hatching a sign that the water is ok for fish and the tests are misleading? or can the snails tolarate nitrites (...at least for several weeks).


If you had 5ppm NO2 the snails would be at, or above, the water line. 

I'm not a water conditioner user (I use rain-water) I'm not sure about your conditioner but others may know.





Abcdefg said:


> and it didn't seem to be particularly dirty so I only rinsed the wool in some tank water.


If you take the filter wool out of the filter you may be able to run it for several months without cleaning the filter body. I like a large sponge filter on the intake for mechanical filtration, but I appreciate that they aren't to every-ones taste. 

cheers Darrel


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## Abcdefg (28 Nov 2016)

dw1305 said:


> If you had 5ppm NO2 the snails would be at, or above, the water line.



Thanks, that's somewhat reassuring. I have just picked up a liquid nitrite only test kit, with a much finer range, so hopefully I can get a better read on the nitrites this evening.



dw1305 said:


> If you take the filter wool out of the filter you may be able to run it for several months without cleaning the filter body. I like a large sponge filter on the intake for mechanical filtration, but I appreciate that they aren't to every-ones taste.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Unfortunately its a 50 litre tank, so I'd like to keep as much out of it as possible. Would there be anything wrong in principle with having a small in line canister (it such things are available?) that has some wool or foam to deal with mechanical filtration, that sit's in the inlet pipework in front of the main filter (minus the wool)?.

Thanks

Tom


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## dw1305 (28 Nov 2016)

Hi all,





Abcdefg said:


> I have just picked up a liquid nitrite only test kit, with a much finer range, so hopefully I can get a better read on the nitrites this evening.


Nitrites are easier to test for than nitrates (some nitrite compounds are both coloured and insoluble), whether you get a meaningful result would depend on exactly what compounds are formed by the interaction of fixed nitrogen with the water conditioner.





Abcdefg said:


> Would there be anything wrong in principle with having a small in line canister (it such things are available?) that has some wool or foam to deal with mechanical filtration, that sits in the inlet pipework in front of the main filter (minus the wool)?.


Anything will do, it just needs to be quick and easy to clean. SunSun and Monarka sell a pre-filter for canister filters, but I don't know whether they are available in the UK (or what hose fittings etc they use).

The problem with having filter wool, or fine foam (PPI30 or PPI45), in the filter body is that they are very effective at collecting fine particles, which makes them clog really quickly, this either slows the flow of water through the filter, or leads to it bypassing the filter media (which option you get depends upon the filter design).

The problem with impeded, or bypassed, flow is that the filter media can become de-oxygenated. Oxygen availability drives biological filtration not ammonia etc. which is why scientists use BOD etc.

You can use floss, but you need to open the filter every week to change the floss (most people used polyester pillow wadding and only use it once).

cheers Darrel


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## dw1305 (28 Nov 2016)

Hi all, 
I've just found you can buy the <"SunSun pre-filter"> on Amazon. 

cheers Darrel


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## Abcdefg (28 Nov 2016)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> I've just found you can buy the <"SunSun pre-filter"> on Amazon.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Ah, looks interesting, I might try to work out if this will fit in the cabinet in the future

Cheers


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## Abcdefg (28 Nov 2016)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,Nitrites are easier to test for than nitrates (some nitrite compounds are both coloured and insoluble), whether you get a meaningful result would depend on exactly what compounds are formed by the interaction of fixed nitrogen with the water conditioner.



Right so I picked up a tetra test kit for nitrites which has a range of result values from "<0.3 mg/l" to "3.3 - 33mg/l" (so greater than 3.3, not sure why "33" is mentioned...)

test results are:

tank water (95% water change was done yesterday late afternoon)   = at least greater than 1.6mg/l. and possibly 3.3mg/l or greater 

Tap water around 0.3mg/l, or just in excess of it.

RO water from fish shop local to my work as a sanity check = definitely less than 0.3mg/l



also took some TDS readings with a cheapo meter, not that they are relevant to this as far as I can tell

tank water 311ppm
tap water 290 ppm
RO water 22 ppm


Snails little and large and water fleas (or something very tiny) , still seem to be doing their thing. 

Should I be concerned for the snails, and is adding fish this weekend out of the window? could the tank suddenly become able to deal with that level of nitrites during the course of the week?

if ammonia is allegedly "0" and has been for weeks, then what is generating the nitrites? my tank can evidently generate at least 2ppm of nitrites in around 1 day, is this normal for a small planted tank, with no livestock apart from some tiny snails? could this coming from the substrate or dying plants (most seem pretty healthy)?

Thanks

Tom


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## dw1305 (29 Nov 2016)

Hi all, 





Abcdefg said:


> Right so I picked up a tetra test kit for nitrites which has a range of result values from "<0.3 mg/l" to "3.3 - 33mg/l" (so greater than 3.3, not sure why "33" is mentioned...)


The "3.3" is the conversion factor from nitrogen (N), which is measured by the test kit, to nitrite (NO2-).  The RAM of  N = 14, O2 = 32 and the RMM of NO2 = 46 ~ 14 x 3.3 = 46.

I assume the test kit uses the Griess reaction to create a purple azo dye.





Abcdefg said:


> Tap water around 0.3mg/l, or just in excess of it.


That is pretty close to the maximum limit in tap water (0.5ppm).





Abcdefg said:


> if ammonia is allegedly "0" and has been for weeks, then what is generating the nitrites? my tank can evidently generate at least 2ppm of nitrites in around 1 day, is this normal for a small planted tank, with no livestock apart from some tiny snails? could this coming from the substrate or dying plants (most seem pretty healthy)?


I don't think you have 2ppm NO2-.

cheers Darrel


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## Abcdefg (29 Nov 2016)

dw1305 said:


> .That is pretty close to the maximum limit in tap water (0.5ppm)



...that doesn't sound great...



dw1305 said:


> I don't think you have 2ppm NO2-



Is the test kit incorrect then?


Can I ask a few questions about filter maintanence, and what to expect to see or not see in a 'healthy' external filter?

Late last night I had a look inside the filter, rinsed some of the media  in tank water and replaced the fine wool type mechanical filter with some cheap "aquarium filter wool" (which I'm assuming is suitable).

I also emptied out the water from the filter canister. I had assumed that this would be similar or not too far off from the water in the tank, but it was a very dark amber colour.


> is this normal or does it mean that the filter has had restricted flow somewhere in the media and the water has perhaps been bypassing much of the filter?

I noticed some bright white spores type things about 1mm across around one of the seals and removed them.

> Are these normal? should I have removed them?


> in general should I expect the media and canister to have any film or sliminess to it? - it didn't (apart from the localised 'spore' things mentioned above), so I'm wondering if there's anything biologically useful that's established itself there, or if it's barren for some reason.


I did a water change of 95% after the filter cleaning. I replaced the water with approx 3/4 treated tap water, and 1/4 RO water from the LFS, 

-an hour after this nitrite tested at around 0.3mg/l, 
-this nitrite tested around 0.3mg/l

I'll test again tonight to see if there's any change.

Thanks,

Tom


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## dw1305 (29 Nov 2016)

Hi all, 





Abcdefg said:


> Is the test kit incorrect then?


That is the problem, there is just no way of knowing, it may be right, but the fact that the snails and water fleas seem OK would strongly argue that it isn't recording just NO2.





Abcdefg said:


> Late last night I had a look inside the filter, rinsed some of the media in tank water and replaced the fine wool type mechanical filter with some cheap "aquarium filter wool" (which I'm assuming is suitable).


 Should be fine.





Abcdefg said:


> I also emptied out the water from the filter canister. I had assumed that this would be similar or not too far off from the water in the tank, but it was a very dark amber colour. is this normal or does it mean that the filter has had restricted flow somewhere in the media and the water has perhaps been bypassing much of the filter?


No, I think the water is normally tea/amber colour, it certainly is in my filters.





Abcdefg said:


> in general should I expect the media and canister to have any film or sliminess to it? - it didn't (apart from the localised 'spore' things mentioned above), so I'm wondering if there's anything biologically useful that's established itself there, or if it's barren for some reason.


I don't tend to have a lot of mulm in my filters, even after 6 months the media is still pretty clean looking. When we used to do the work with waste water the media in the initial trickle filters used to develop a thick microbial coat, but you didn't get this after the water had been through the phytofilters.

cheers Darrel


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## Abcdefg (8 Dec 2016)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, That is the problem, there is just no way of knowing, it may be right, but the fact that the snails and water fleas seem OK would strongly argue that it isn't recording just NO2. Should be fine.No, I think the water is normally tea/amber colour, it certainly is in my filters.I don't tend to have a lot of mulm in my filters, even after 6 months the media is still pretty clean looking. When we used to do the work with waste water the media in the initial trickle filters used to develop a thick microbial coat, but you didn't get this after the water had been through the phytofilters.
> 
> cheers Darrel




Thanks Darrel, This is all very helpful.

The N03 levels seem to be at 0 now for a week. So I'm guessing that the tank has 'cycled' or balanced to the point where it's ok to attempt adding fish, although I wont do this for another 9 days, so should be able to check that there's no recurrence of high N03 or N02.

I have switched to pure re-mineralised RO water around 5 days ago, and everything plant wise seems to have been unaffected, or possibly even improved (possibly it's too soon to tell though


Thanks again,

Tom


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## dw1305 (8 Dec 2016)

Hi all,





Abcdefg said:


> So I'm guessing that the tank has 'cycled' or balanced to the point where it's ok to attempt adding fish, although I wont do this for another 9 days, so should be able to check that there's no recurrence of high N03 or N02.


It should be OK. 





Abcdefg said:


> The N03 levels seem to be at 0 now for a week.


Even though it says 0ppm, it will probably be about 10ppm NO3, nitrate is just difficult to test for. 

I occasionally get the students to check the lab. tanks water (when they have their own water samples to test) with a <"NO3 ion selective electrode">. The tank value is normally around 10ppm NO3 (~2.3ppm nitrogen (N)).

Even using an ISE, the result isn't necessarily very accurate, but I know there aren't very many solutes of any description in the tanks (they are long established, rain-water, sand substrate, heavily planted, lightly stocked and have a <"very lean nutrient regime">). 

I can test the conductivity of the tank water with a dip meter, and it is usually in the 100 - 150 microS range. Conductivity doesn't tell me anything very useful, but in combination with floating plant health it allows me to get a ball park figure for nutrient status.

cheers Darrel


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## Abcdefg (9 Dec 2016)

Thanks Darrel, 

I've just realised that my post says N03, when it should have said NO2. 

I'm assuming that hobby grade NO2 tests ( in this case tetra) are reasonably safe in terms of accuracy where livestock are concerned? 

Thanks


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## dw1305 (9 Dec 2016)

Hi all, 





Abcdefg said:


> I'm assuming that hobby grade NO2 tests ( in this case tetra) are reasonably safe in terms of accuracy where livestock are concerned?


Personally I wouldn't trust them, testing for any mono-valent anion is problematic to some degree. For NO2 testing in water you can use the azo dye method. To accurately measure all the chemical parameters that might be effecting your tank, you would need hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of analytical equipment. Water companies have equipment that can do this, but very few other places. 

That is the great beauty of having a large plant mass in active growth, it pretty much guarantees your water is suitable for fish etc.

A lot of fine scale water testing is not actually done using chemical test, but by using bio-indicators. There are a number of organisms with known tolerances to various water pollutants, you can then measure their response to your water. 

It is called an environmental bio-assay, and I just adapted it for use in the aquarium. Originally I just used Duckweed (_Lemna minor) _to estimate nutrient status, but other species used in these environmental bio-assays include crustaceans like _Daphnia magna _and _Asellus aquaticus _and over time I've incorporated these into aquarium management.

cheers Darrel


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