# PBM's Dennerle Scapers 55



## PBM3000 (25 Apr 2018)

So it begins. My new Dennerle Scaper's tank - 450x360x340mm.  To replace my nice (but rather fiddly) Aqua One 22l cherry shrimp tank.

Not sure where I'm going with it yet... but I might as well journal it for you all to laugh at.   Purchase of the tank and lighting aside, I'm on a bit of a budget with this one.  Gonna be non-CO2 anyway.  

Pictured here with the Chihiros A-Series LED before applying a background later this week with black acrylic enamel.

That sticker had _better_ come of cleanly!  #OCD


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## alto (25 Apr 2018)

Lovelily 
(no idea what I typed that IPad transformed )

So full of potential 

No CO2 can be as nice as CO2 - just find what plants grow well in your tap water & under your care 
eg, I prefer the compact form of P erectus I observe in my nontech tanks, Hemianthus micranthemoides does fantastic, M 'Monte Carlo' slow but decent, M crenata ...

Some I expected to do fine, did not endure 

Rather than black acrylic, look for midnight blue - I've some ancient aquarium backing that shades from pale to deepest blue & much prefer this over the basic black I have on another tank


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## alto (25 Apr 2018)

Growth will/can be slow, so include a hardscape you like looking at


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## Aqua360 (25 Apr 2018)

Is this the new version of the Dennerle scapers tank?


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## PBM3000 (27 Apr 2018)

alto said:


> Rather than black acrylic, look for midnight blue - I've some ancient aquarium backing that shades from pale to deepest blue & much prefer this over the basic black I have on another tank


My main tank is a deep blue and it suits the expansive vista.  I'll stick to black on this one though (now painted with Rustoleum Universal All Surface Paint). 



Aqua360 said:


> Is this the new version of the Dennerle scapers tank?


Yes.


Nabbed some wood from MA today.  Insane prices - but when it's pretty much all you've got in the area.  Spiderwood seemed the most versatile and I'm glad it darkens to a more reddish tone when wet.

Some quick musing today on placement:  I'll be resting these on fine black(ish) gravel (raised to height at the rear) so imagine the arrangement of these two pieces 'somewhat propped up'.  Breaking the gaps will be some small pieces of Seiryu stone.  Micranthemeum Monte Carlo is the plan as a carpet but I've never had much joy with carpeting.

Any favourites here?  Comments welcome.

PS: Phone pics for now for convenience.  I'm an ex pro photographer so 'nice' is yet to come. 

A.




B.




C.




D.




E.




F.




G.




H.




I.


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## CooKieS (27 Apr 2018)

number 8 looks OK to me


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## Gill (28 Apr 2018)

H


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## Kalum (28 Apr 2018)

G and I are the same aren't they?

Any of the last 3 for me, looks good


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## PBM3000 (28 Apr 2018)

Kalum said:


> G and I are the same aren't they?
> 
> Any of the last 3 for me, looks good


Different arrangements ‘same’ photo. Subconsciously I might be on to something! 

I’ve done some more arrangements, this time binding the two roots together with elastic bands in different configurations and it’s much better as a ‘single’ root.

Roots soaking for a couple of days now so I’ll update when actual scaping begins. Cheers.


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## alto (28 Apr 2018)

H for me too


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## sciencefiction (29 Apr 2018)

C. for me. G. is also good.


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## PBM3000 (29 Apr 2018)

Thanks for everyone’s input so far. We’ll hold for now as I’ve had a slight change of plan with the arrangement.


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## PBM3000 (29 Apr 2018)

Probably going to run with this... or thereabouts...


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## alto (29 Apr 2018)

Nice stone 

Check that your hardscape is maintenance friendly 

Some top down photos would be good

I really liked this Facebook post from Jurijs mit JS
 (common layout mistake - that I'm very much guilty of  )


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## PBM3000 (29 Apr 2018)

From the top and side-on.


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## PBM3000 (29 Apr 2018)

Leak and level test.  How long do you usually give it?  24hrs?


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## MJF90 (30 Apr 2018)

Nice hardscape! Whats the black stuff underneath?


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## PBM3000 (30 Apr 2018)

Plastic guttering covers deployed in a load-bearing role!


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## CooKieS (1 May 2018)

PBM3000 said:


> Plastic guttering covers deployed in a load-bearing role!



Used the same trick to avoid soil and sand mixing in my scape, works great


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## PBM3000 (2 May 2018)

Substrate laid down and plants are here* so I'm goin' in!

*
*For Dry Start (cultures)*:
Micranthemum Monte Carlo
Flame Moss
Weeping Moss
Hydrocotyle Tripartia
Pelia
Buce / Anubias

*To add later, when flooded, from established tank stock*:
Dwarf Sag
Crytps
Fissidens Font.
Pogestemon Helferi

I also have some small moss balls.  Could I split them and glue to some of the wood or will that end in tears?


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## Sakura83 (2 May 2018)

Looks promising


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## PBM3000 (2 May 2018)

Thanks! 

"Take up aquascaping they said... it'll be easy they said!"  

Gawd I detest tying/gluing moss but... progress so far...

I'm using a Chihiros 45cm - anyone know what intensity setting I should use?  I'm going for 10hrs a day.

Also, I take it a glass cover is okay to bring about humidity - most tuts say use cling film but that's a pain in the ass, right? Gap is about 5mm all round.


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## PBM3000 (2 May 2018)

alto said:


> Check that your hardscape is maintenance friendly


It's worked out well so far.  More by accident than design, the two Azalea pieces 'lock' into the stonework - so both can be removed independently (and replaced exactly as before) if needed.


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## Daveslaney (2 May 2018)

Looks good so far. If going for the dry start i would just spread the moss thinly where you want it to grow and let it  take hold before you flood.


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## PBM3000 (2 May 2018)

Thing is; Weeping Moss doesn’t self-attach so I had to tie it. The Flame moss (right) should take ok.


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## alto (2 May 2018)

You want to trim the moss right back

Then you can take that trimmed moss, chop finely, add a bit of water, tiny amount of plain (no sugar) yoghurt & paint moss wherever you'd like it - this is the most effective method for moss attachment (assuming surface has come roughness - spider wood, mopani wood can be challenging as the surface can be very smooth - sand paper or wire bristle brush solution )

Dry Start - general, 12h light, as much light as possible, sometimes added CO2, sometimes (occasional) light fertilizer mist (well diluted aquatic fertilizer to avoid leaf burn)

You might scroll through Jurijs mit JS FB page as he recently did a DS on his 60P (some videos & tips)


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## PBM3000 (2 May 2018)

I'm going to try the blended approach on the Flame Moss.  Probably too thick as-is and I could do with some more here and there.

To recap some questions I posed earlier - can anyone help?: 

• Is a glass cover is okay to bring about humidity - Gap is about 5mm all round (and it doesn't seem to be 'steaming up'). 

• I also have some small moss (Marimo) balls. Could I split them and glue to some of the wood or will that end in tears?


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## alto (2 May 2018)

PBM3000 said:


> • I also have some small moss (Marimo) balls. Could I split them and glue to some of the wood or will that end in tears?



Jurijs has a video on that too
Check George Farmer youtube channel - this I think 

As for the glass top, you'll just need to monitor - you can always just cling film the gap (somewhat)


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## PBM3000 (2 May 2018)

Cheers.  Watching now.  I'd always read that it just died when flattened out.  But if Jurijs is doing it, well... 

For the cover, I'm now using a clear, walled polycarbonate sheet which extends right over the rim.  I'll open once or twice a day to change the air.

I've also finely chopped-up most of that Flame Moss pictured earlier.  I have little hope that this is all going to work as the mosses are drying up already...


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## PBM3000 (3 May 2018)

I have Hydrocotyle Tripartita, some Buce and Pelia.  Do I wait until it's flooded to plant those?


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## CooKieS (3 May 2018)

H. Tripartita and buce can easily be added later. 

About mini pellia, my advice is too glue it before flooding.


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## CooKieS (3 May 2018)

Btw why dry start?

Slowest growth, great chance of mould, plants needs to readapt when flooding...ammonia cycle not done before flooding...

My advice? Flood it now.


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## PBM3000 (3 May 2018)

Thanks.

I understood growth is faster with a dry start and at least the Monte will readapt quicker with better roots.  All plants were purchased emersed so they'll have to readapt at some point anyway.  Might as well give them a fighting chance.  No ammonia issues to consider in this tank.

I'll be realistic with my patience levels though - I'll likely flood this within a month.


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## CooKieS (3 May 2018)

Monte carlo is one, if not, the easiest carpeting plant, don't worry.


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## alto (3 May 2018)

PBM3000 said:


> I'll be realistic with my patience levels though - I'll likely flood this within a month.


If done right, DS needn't take more than 2-4 weeks (some people limit light) - often it's just a case of flooding when convenient, even after a DS you should be prepared for frequent water change, attention to tank etc 

There's a journal here (somewhere) with a stunning DS that ran for months - not sure I could've ever flooded that tank


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## PBM3000 (3 May 2018)

Cheers.  Once I'm convinced the MC has started to root and the Flame Moss has attached I'll flood. 

Cooking on Gas Mark 7...


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## PBM3000 (3 May 2018)

Should I add some root tabs in there, given that it's inert sub?


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## PBM3000 (6 May 2018)

Well, that didn't take long... here comes the mold. 

Given that I won't be stocking it with critters in the short term, *should I just flood now?*  Monte Carlo seems to be doing well and probably beginning to root.  I've ordered more Flame moss which I'll just tie on. The chopped moss can float off now for all I care...


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## Angus (6 May 2018)

Best way to combat mould in a DSM is to air the tank regularly, or alternatively if you are around the tank a lot then leave the cover off and spray regularly, you could just cover it the times when you won't be there like work etc, i would hold off flooding as it defeats the object of doing a DSM.


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## PBM3000 (6 May 2018)

Thanks. The main problem is that the moss is drying out too quickly. Mold is just aggravating the process.


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## CooKieS (6 May 2018)

I've been warning you...


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## PBM3000 (6 May 2018)

You were probably right!  I’m likely going to flood it this evening, get some more planting done, filter and heater in and go from there. My other low tech’s have been very successful with a wet start so no reason for this one to fail.


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## PBM3000 (7 May 2018)

It’s flooded. No floaters with the MC so a relief there. 

I’m cycling with media from the old tank and have ‘dirtied’ the water with some mulm from same.  How long should the cycle take?

I’ll start liquid carbon and ferts - do I need to carry out large water changes as per a ‘totally new’ tank routine?


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## Jayefc1 (7 May 2018)

I would will help cycle faster no matter what and help the plants settle in


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## PBM3000 (7 May 2018)

Thanks again.

Well... some "progress" (excuse the rocks holding down the woodscape).

•  50% planted - more mosses, Dwarf Sag and S.Repens to come.
• A few more twigs/branches and 'small detail' stonework to add.
•  Temporary Eheim Pickup 60 filter doing the cycle - water seems to be clearing reasonably quickly. 
•  Soon as parameters are good I'll add some Amano and maybe a couple Ottos as a tidy-up crew.


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## PBM3000 (8 May 2018)

If I were to use the already established filter from the old tank on this one, would it stabilise quicker (given that it has a _much_ larger capacity of biomedia than this one (which is also using established biomedia))?


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## TheAquascaper (8 May 2018)

Where was you getting mould? Did it originate from the new wood?


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## PBM3000 (8 May 2018)

The new wood started 'spotting' during dry start.  Just couldn't be arsed fighting it.  Mind you, now I have that 'orrible white slime... which I'm confident is a) temporary and b) shrimp food.


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## lucaz koh (8 May 2018)

Have the white slime and fungus growing all over my spiderwood as well. I try to siphon most of it out during WC. Waiting to add Amano Shrimp and otos so they can have a feast!


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## PBM3000 (8 May 2018)

Current status:

•  Bacterial bloom-a-go-go.  
•  Eheim Aqua Compact and Dennerle (rebranded AquaEl) heater installed.
•  Awaiting some S. Repens to fill in the left side and centre - and some more flame moss to adorn the wood.

Carried out a parameter test today out of interest:
0 Ammonia (had just added Prime so probably high)
1.0 Nitrites
40ppm Nitrates.

I'm surprised it's taken this long to settle down, tbh.  Ho-hum. 



 


And my poor old 22l Aqua One cube ... now a butchered donor/holding tank.  Hang in there, Cherries!


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## TheAquascaper (9 May 2018)

PBM3000 said:


> The new wood started 'spotting' during dry start.  Just couldn't be arsed fighting it.  Mind you, now I have that 'orrible white slime... which I'm confident is a) temporary and b) shrimp food.



To be honest my shrimp didn’t really touch the slime in mine, it just retreated one day. I done a DSM a while back and I swear the mould originated from the wood, now I have a water butt in the garden I throw all my wood in for a few weeks before I order my plants. You get the white slime a little on flooding but I didn’t get any mould during the dry starts after that.


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## PBM3000 (9 May 2018)

Just added the new plants and mosses. Honestly - those who superglue moss with any degree of panache stand among Gods. 

No more pics for a while. Embarrassing...


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## Zeus. (9 May 2018)

PBM3000 said:


> Those who superglue moss with any degree of panache stand among Gods.



The superglue you smear clears in a few weeks  then no one is the wiser


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## PBM3000 (9 May 2018)

Not in my experience! 

Anyhoo - I ripped the wood out and started again, scraping off the offending CA. I then set about tying it on. That process is easy enough but *how do you tie-off the knot* when you’re finished winding?

Please don’t say ‘a dab of superglue’!

Damn thing’ still cycling, too. So much for swapping the filters and instant cycles...


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## PBM3000 (10 May 2018)

That's about it for set up... pretty much what I envisioned with perhaps a few more Crypts along the back.  Doubtless I'll add a couple more Bucephalandra too.  A disorderly mess at the moment but things should hopefully grown in nicely.  Still surprised that Monte Carlo's doing well.

Wish it would hurry up and cycle though.   I did a complete change of substrate on my nipper's 28l non-planted 'toy tank' yesterday.  Old gravel out, new gravel in - unwashed, straight from the bag.  Bloom disappeared in less than four hours with just a poxy trickle tray filter.  Not this one though... oh no... 

I'd like something to sit on the top of that bare patch of wood at the back.  Was thinking a Java Fern but I reckon it'll fry so close to the LED - *any suggestions*?


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## alto (10 May 2018)

Now that you've nicely tied the moss, get out the scissors & trim it back tightly to the wood - I promise it will come out better long term  
(this seems to encourage adhesion to the wood/rock & you don't get any moss "dead zones" at the point of attachment - there's a video somewhere with Takashi Amano tieing moss, trimming, trimming again as tank develops)


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## alto (10 May 2018)

What's the substrate?


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## PBM3000 (10 May 2018)

Inert, fine quartz gravel - all my tanks are.


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## PBM3000 (11 May 2018)

> I'd like something to sit on the top of that bare patch of wood at the back.  Was thinking a Java Fern but I reckon it'll fry so close to the LED - *any suggestions*?


Anyone?


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## alto (11 May 2018)

In a CO2 tank, it will adapt readily enough to higher light

Have you considered H pinnatifida?


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## PBM3000 (11 May 2018)

Liquid only on this one.

I hadn't but thanks for the suggestion.


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## sciencefiction (12 May 2018)

You can add any type of plant that will tolerate higher light and can attache. H pinnatifida, Bolbitis heudelotii ,any type of moss and a ton of others like pennywort, etc..

I like your arrangement. You did a good job out of it and it will show even better when the plants grow in.


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## PBM3000 (14 May 2018)

Thanks for your kind words.  It's encouraging. 

I think I'll grab some H pinnatifida. 

Still a bit slimy here and there but the fog is lifting, Nitrites are dropping and things are growing in.  

I sense victory.


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## PBM3000 (14 May 2018)

Measuring *TDS* daily now.  Aim is *200-250* as that's what my shrimp are used to.  Currently 340 and dropping slowly. 

If I were to do water changes with (pure) RO from now on, will I minimise the chance of diatoms? Or is that not how it works?


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## kadoxu (15 May 2018)

PBM3000 said:


> If I were to do water changes with (pure) RO from now on, will I minimise the chance of diatoms?


Don't do it... slow and steady is the way. You can use pure RO to top up evaporated water, for everything else, it needs to be remineralized (I believe that's the term used) in some way. You can mix RO and tap water when doing water changes, but I wouldn't bother just for the sake of keeping a lower TDS for the shrimp. I've had fish and shrimp with TDS above 400 and they didn't really bother with it.


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## PBM3000 (15 May 2018)

Thanks. I get what you’re saying but I’m effectively cutting the RO with the existing tap water, right? Once I get TDS to 250 I’ll begin remineralising the RO. 

Re:TDS is it not good practice to match it to what they’re already used to?


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## kadoxu (15 May 2018)

PBM3000 said:


> I’m effectively cutting the RO with the existing tap water, right?


Sorry, I don't know if I'm understanding what you mean correctly... but if you're doing water changes with RO only, you are diluting whatever there is in the tank already, but you'll be changing the water chemistry in tank a bit too quickly for my liking. Almost nothing in this hobby comes the "quick and easy" way.



PBM3000 said:


> Re:TDS is it not good practice to match it to what they’re already used to?


I've been in your place before mixing RO with tap water to have lower TDS (my tap water has around 300)... then someone here told me there was no point, I gave up and it made absolutely no difference. I had a tank with shrimp running with TDS over 400 not that long ago and they still bred like crazy.

Unless we're talking about some very specific and hard to keep fish/shrimp species, more important than following numbers is to keep the numbers stable. If you get fish/shrimp from a store, chances are they're being kept in tap water anyway. Fish/shrimp bred locally will also most likely be in tap water and have adapted to it in the meantime. In my experience, if you do the acclimatisation properly you rarely have any issues.


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## PBM3000 (15 May 2018)

Understood but surely my shrimp will better withstand the acclimatisation _if_ the TDS is similar in each tank?  I wouldn't like to put them from 200 into 350+.  Isn't it just something else that can go wrong?

I suppose I could just start water changes in the existing shrimp tank with tap...


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## kadoxu (15 May 2018)

PBM3000 said:


> Understood but surely my shrimp will better withstand the acclimatisation _if_ the TDS is similar in each tank?  I wouldn't like to put them from 200 into 350+.  Isn't it just something else that can go wrong?
> 
> I suppose I could just start water changes in the existing shrimp tank with tap...


True. If the water is similar in both tanks (TDS, other params, temperature, etc) you wouldn't even need to acclimate. Once in a while I move shrimp between tanks, and since I keep all my tanks the same way I don't even to acclimate them.

With all this said, we are here just to discuss and give advice, if you're doing something that you believe works well for you, you shouldn't change it just because someone says so. 

If your shrimp are breeding and you want to play it safe, do it your way, and then try to slowly stop using RO for water changes in one of the tanks to see how it goes (slowly reducing the amount of RO over a couple of months). If something bad happens, you'll still have one tank with suitable conditions to move the shrimp into, or (worst case scenario) at least some shrimp in one tank to repopulate.


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## PBM3000 (18 May 2018)

Update:

• Ordered an Eheim Experience 150 (500lph).  Turnover from the AquaCompact (350lph) good - flow not so good.

• Transferred some Amano shrimp from the main tank.  Doing sterling work on that white slime! 

• Debating on whether to use spray bar, duckbill or lily pipe outlet?...


.


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## PBM3000 (20 May 2018)

*Day 25*:

Amanos have done a sterling job cleaning much of the mould and slime off the wood.  Monte Carlo doing well (no sign of any melt), Flame moss 'sprouting', S. Repens slow but sure so far.  The H tripartita's looking great too.


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## TBRO (20 May 2018)

Looking really nice! Is that some kind of Blyxa at the back right?

I’m toying with the idea of DS a tank but am worried about the wood drying out and going for a float when flooded? Any issues with this? T


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PBM3000 (20 May 2018)

'Dwarf' Sagittaria - which turns out to be not so dwarf when it chooses! 

I soaked mine for a day or two, DS for a few days then decided to flood.  A slight 'lift' was easily sorted with a couple of stones on the top. 

Cheers.


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## PBM3000 (20 May 2018)

Any suggestions on whether I should opt for a spray bar (back to front or left to right) 

OR 

Duckbill outlet (left to right)?  
.


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## Zeus. (20 May 2018)

Spraybar front to back esp after Clive's adivice here max the flow.


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## PBM3000 (20 May 2018)

Cheers.  I'll defo try that first. 

Just a thought.  I've LOVE to get that heater out of the tank.  Has anyone ever sat a canister filter in a sump (obviously below the line of the motor housing) and heated the water that way?  I'm no engineer but I'm thinking that there would be too much of a loss of energy.  Or maybe not?... any thoughts?
.


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## Zeus. (20 May 2018)

If you was going to use a canister then just fit an inline heater could easily get messy fitting canister in a bucket of water with a heater in it


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## PBM3000 (20 May 2018)

Any reliable alternatives to Hydor?  The only 12/16mm one they do is a 200w.


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## Zeus. (20 May 2018)

Trouble with the 200w hydor on a small tank is what happens if the heater gets suck on

So it's either a DIY inline heater easy to make plenty of vids on YouTube making it so an appropiate size wattage heater is used, or get a thermal probe which measures the temp turning the heater on/off as a failsafe which powers the hydor heater.


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## PBM3000 (21 May 2018)

Tried to obtain parts for an inline heater today.  The look I got from "specialist" plumbing retailers was...

Yeah, nah.


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## Jayefc1 (21 May 2018)

Just get an oase thermiomaster heater built in to canister


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## PBM3000 (21 May 2018)

Just bought an Eheim so a bit late!  I note the minimum l/ph on those is 900l/ph anyway so it'd be too much for a 55l. Tad pricey, too.


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## Jayefc1 (21 May 2018)

I have one on a 23ltr lol


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## PBM3000 (21 May 2018)

How?


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## Jayefc1 (21 May 2018)

Easy with the Lilly's u don't actually get 900ltrs in any case it's actually a lot less cause of the pre filter


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## Jayefc1 (21 May 2018)

how much was the Ehemi


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## PBM3000 (21 May 2018)

£85


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## dw1305 (21 May 2018)

Hi all,





PBM3000 said:


> If I were to do water changes with (pure) RO from now on, will I minimise the chance of diatoms? Or is that not how it works?


Yes, that is not how it works unfortunately. 

Basically <"nearly all liquid water contains Diatoms">, including the film of water in the soil, on mosses etc. Search for "orthosilic" on the forum and you should get plenty of <"Diatom posts">.

cheers Darrel


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## PBM3000 (23 May 2018)

*Day 28*:

• Eheim Experience 150 has arrived.  Now sorting cabinet space below.
• Eheim 75w Heater arrived.
• Awaiting shrimp-safe intake sponge.
• Have ordered parts for external inline heater from plasticpipeshop.co.uk plus a Uniseal from eBay - I _think_ I've ordered the right bits.   I'll get the filter running meanwhile.


When should I begin trimming the Monte Carlo?


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## PBM3000 (24 May 2018)

I hope Cherry shrimp like flow.  They've now got it in spades!  Wondering if it's too much?...


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## Konsa (24 May 2018)

Hi
U cant have too much flow with shrimp.They love it.
Regards Konsa


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## PBM3000 (29 May 2018)

*Day 34*:

• Reduced turbulence a little by adding a JBL WideSet to the end of the spray bar.  Flow is spot on, now.
• Slime almost gone.
• Shrimp are in (although all but two are conveniently hiding in this shot).
• Just about to rig up the external heater - so I can get that ugly thing out!
• Water clearing nicely (...and more rapidly after discovering I had some Dennerle Crusta Mineral in a drawer!).
• No melt so far... which has surprised me somewhat.  Only a little on the Dwarf Sag.
• No diatoms either.  I'm bracing myself for it...

What sheer joy it is when it all falls into place!


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## PBM3000 (29 May 2018)

Pretty pleased with this DIY inline external heater, too! 

Having kittens though - are all the air pockets out?  Will the heater blow when I turn it on?  

Only ONE way to find out! ...


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## PBM3000 (8 Jun 2018)

*Day 44* and pretty much the end of this journal I guess.

Everything's gone really well - no signs of diatoms and biologically all in balance it seems.  Happy shrimp, happy shrimp keeper.  *Thanks* for everyone's help and advice. 

Now to get my main tank up to the same standard of scape!


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