# Live food cultures



## AverageWhiteBloke (6 Jun 2017)

Sort of fish related I guess. Been thinking about setting up some sort of live food I can harvest all year round to feed my fish, something simple. Just wondering if you guys do it and what do you feed?


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## dw1305 (7 Jun 2017)

Hi all, 





AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Just wondering if you guys do it and what do you feed?


I keep <"Grindal worms">, <"Micro-worms">, <"Vinegar Eels">, _<"Daphnia">, <"Asellus, Crangonyx pseudogracilis">_ and <"Black-worms">. I also "ranch" Blood-worms and Mosquito larvae. I would normally have <"vestigial winged Fruit-flies"> as well, but I don't have a culture at the moment. 

I was going to suggest buying a copy of Mike Hellweg's <"Culturing Live Food"> but that doesn't look to be an option, unless you win the lottery. I'm offering a discount on my copy, yours for just £400 (plus p&p) but only for friends.

Vinegar Eels are good for very small fry, particularly ones that swim high in the water column. They are practically no maintenance to keep, but fiddly to feed. 

I've had the same Grindal and Micro-worms cultures for ~10 years. I keep the Micro-worms in the coleslaw pots you get from supermarkets etc. I feed them on rolled oats, and I sub-culture them every 6 weeks or so. My Micro-worms may be Banana worms, but in use it doesn't matter. They eat yeast, rather than the oats themselves, but when you buy them the worms bring the yeast with them. They are good for fry, and some adult fish are keen on them. They are a favourite food item for Threadfin Rainbows and Dwarf Corydoras.  

Grindal worms I keep on potting compost in one litre ice cream tubs. They also get oats, I grind rolled oats, but you can use "Instant Oat" cereal. There are a couple of problems with Grindal worms cultures, they tend to boom and bust, and it is really difficult to keep <"Cereal and House Mites out of the cultures">. I've learnt to live with Mites and I add a couple of red-worms (_Lumbricus rubellus_) to the culture, to act as a "Canary". I keep four cultures at any one time, this means that I haven't lost them all in a "crash".

Grindal/Micro and Vinegar eels are productive all through the year. 

I don't keep specific cultures of _Daphnia, Asellus_ or _Lumbriculus_ any more. They have all done well outside in water butts and/or buckets, and I also get Blood-worms and Mosquito larvae from these in the summer. I keep a few Black-worms (_Lumbriculus)_ inside during the winter (just in ice-cream containers, with some moss & floating plants) as an insurance, and there are normally a few in the filter as well.

cheers Darrel


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## AverageWhiteBloke (7 Jun 2017)

I'm thinking of Grindal Worms, just been reading up on keeping them. So many different ways it would appear!


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## zozo (8 Jun 2017)

dw1305 said:


> I was going to suggest buying a copy of Mike Hellweg's <"Culturing Live Food"> but that doesn't look to be an option, unless you win the lottery. I'm offering a discount on my copy, yours for just £400 (plus p&p) but only for friends.



JC why the heck would somebody write a book about that print it in a vatican bible quality and offer it for such a price? Produced in 2008? In this digital era he could make some real good cash offering it for 50 in a digital version.. He's shooting in his own foot making his product about unavailable to the large public. Not a smart bussinesman..


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## gregl (8 Jun 2017)

zozo said:


> JC why the heck would somebody write a book about that print it in a vatican bible quality and offer it for such a price? Produced in 2008? In this digital era he could make some real good cash offering it for 50 in a digital version.. He's shooting in his own foot making his product about unavailable to the large public. Not a smart bussinesman..



I've seen this happen with a few different non-fiction books on amazon, think it's a way for the seller to stop someone buying it. Someone one told me sellers reduce the cut amazon takes if they have a certain number of listings at once. Could be their version of vacation mode. Could be a mistake in an algorithm somewhere. Not certain of the reason but I'm fairly sure they have no intention to be selling at that price.


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## zozo (8 Jun 2017)

gregl said:


> I've seen this happen with a few different non-fiction books on amazon, think it's a way for the seller to stop someone buying it.


You mean cartel formation? So the head of the Grindal worm culturing family offered a year salary to the author to give it a absurd price?.


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## alto (8 Jun 2017)

This is commonly seen in out of print books - often the absurdly priced versions do not actually exist (at least any I tracked were either nonexistent or actual rare books)


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## zozo (8 Jun 2017)

https://www.chapters.indigo.ca/en-c...-step/9780793806553-item.html?ref=isbn-search
CAD $ 53.59 =  € 35.24 = £ 30.60

Who's roaming the pot???


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## dw1305 (8 Jun 2017)

Hi all, 





zozo said:


> JC why the heck would somebody write a book about that print it in a vatican bible quality and offer it for such a price? Produced in 2008? In this digital era he could make some real good cash offering it for 50 in a digital version.. He's shooting in his own foot making his product about unavailable to the large public. Not a smart bussinesman..


I don't think the problem lies with  the author. I bought my copy (hard-back) in 2008  for about £25. 

Edit I just had a look and I paid the sterling equivalent of $35 in May 2009.

I assume it was a limited print run, and it is an in demand book, although I can't see that any-one would actually pay £400 for it.

cheers Darrel


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## AverageWhiteBloke (8 Jun 2017)

How much would you sell me the page on Grindal worms for?


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## zozo (8 Jun 2017)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, I don't think the problem lies with  the author. I bought my copy (hard-back) in 2008  for about £25.
> 
> Edit I just had a look and I paid the sterling equivalent of $35 in May 2009.
> 
> ...



Yes i saw it in that canadian webshop where it still was priced originaly, but out of stock..  It are indeed opportunistic prices for the desperately greedy and rich willing to pay.. Saw a $ 700 copy on ebay.. I had a laugh, i also wonder if they ever going to sell it.. About all information can be found on the internet.. Can't beleive the book contains the goose with the golden eggs.


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## dw1305 (8 Jun 2017)

Hi all, 





AverageWhiteBloke said:


> How much would you sell me the page on Grindal worms for?


Grindal worm culture is covered in pages 105 - 108 and the book is 240 pp. long, which works out at ........£6.66! If we assume that £400 is a reasonable price. 

Mike Hellweg describes both soil and soil-less methods and he recommends the soil-less culture method. Details are in this thread (on the NANF forum) <"Grindal worms">. 

cheers Darrel


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## JMorgan (14 Jun 2017)

Re Vinegar eels - I have mine in a two litre pop bottle from which I pour a a little bit into one of the larger of these 
Link: http://amzn.eu/4bdrhGy

Though the measurement isnt the teeniest bit important, the shape of the measure is very handy as you then pop a bit of filter floss in so it just touches the top of the vinegar solution containing the "eels". Then top up with aquarium water. The "eels" have to reach the surface to breath so the swim up into the fresh water through the filter floss. I syringe off the now eel containing fresh water and squirt back into the fry tank. This I continue to do for at least two or three squirts, but depending on frequency of feeding the vinegar eels will continue to live perfectly well for many days. When its depleted I just pour the lot back into the original culture and replace.

It's sad there isnt a giant type of vinegar eel as its incredibly easy but they're only really good for very small fry. 

Ive just got my daphnia culture going outdoors - just buy some live daphnia from your LFS and bung them in a bucket. I like to aerate mine, but its probably not critical - feed with activated yeast and spirulina powder 2:1 just to make the water cloudy. Change 20% water weekly - try to use well aged water as I've heard a rumour they don't do well with water that's had conditioners added to it. This could well be nonsense, but makes some sense of my past experience of daphnia cultures failing to thrive when I thought I was doing everything right.
Hope that helps


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## dw1305 (14 Jun 2017)

Hi all,





JMorgan said:


> I have mine in a two litre pop bottle from which I pour a a little bit into one of the larger of these Link: http://amzn.eu/4bdrhGy


That is a good idea, and I have plenty of measuring cylinders available. 





JMorgan said:


> ..... This could well be nonsense, but makes some sense of my past experience of daphnia cultures failing to thrive when I thought I was doing everything right.


I've found the _Daphnia_ cultures are a lot less prone to crashing if they have a pond snail and some dry grass/hay in the culture bucket. I got the idea from <"Caudata.org"> and it definitely helps with boom and bust. I'm not feeding mine at all at the moment and I can still harvest every other day. I haven't restarted any of the buckets for several years.

Most of my buckets now have _Asellus_ and Hornwort (_Ceratophyllum_) in them as well. I assume the _Ceratophyllum_ hinders rather than helps _Daphnia_ growth, but it seems to do wonders for the _Lumbriculus _culture, and it stops them getting _Spirogyra_ etc.  The cat will only drink from a bucket outside, and she doesn't like them if they have filamentous algae. Because of the cat I keep the buckets topped up.

All my buckets have a frog in them now, they just seem to enjoy a day times rest in the buckets. Just before I took the photo (with a flash) there were four frogs, at 90o from one another.



 

I assume a frog is probably quite useful, and I also assume it is the reason why the _Ceratophyllum_ does so well.

cheers Darrel


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## JMorgan (14 Jun 2017)

Speaking of cats . . .  they are the only real problem with using measuring cylinders, not being the most stable of objects! I put mine inside a heavy jar to cat proof it 

Thanks for the dry grass / hay tip - off to bung some in right now and rehome a pond snail or three  The daphnia culture tub is right next to the pond, so I dare say frogs may visit.

Great picture - does look like Mr & Mrs Frog have just had a row and aren't speaking!


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## dw1305 (15 Jun 2017)

Hi all,





JMorgan said:


> does look like Mr & Mrs Frog have just had a row and aren't speaking!


I assume that the smaller frog would have moved around to be 180o from the larger one pretty soon after that. When there were four frogs they were as far a part from one another as they could get.  

I'll have a look tonight, but I have more buckets now, so I assume that each bucket will just have a single frog.

cheers Darrel


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## AverageWhiteBloke (21 Sep 2017)

So I tried microworms using porridge oats and a starter culture off well know auction site. Seems to be successful and had my first harvest today. I knew they were going to be small but didn't realise that small. I could actually see the worms swimming right in front of ember tetras faces and they didn't appear to be too interested.
My Rams who are finicky eaters and the main reason I was trying to culture live food seemed to be pecking quite a lot in various surfaces but I would imagine they would need a hell of a lot to feel like they've had a meal. I think they would be more suited to fry and v small fish.

Looks like I'll have to try grindal worms which seem to be a bit bigger, I'll try soil substrate first as soil less seems a bit hit and miss, maybe try it once I have an established culture. When you say feed oats is that the same porridge oats I started my microworms with? If I feed dog biscuits are there any in particular, ones that avoid? I'm guessing just any dry dog biscuit right?

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## Edvet (22 Sep 2017)

I've been messing around with live food cultures a lot last year. Had microworms (3 spp) (on oatmeal), no problems, but didn't need them anymore so neglected (and lost) cultures. I've had vinegar eels but didn't manage to keep those longer time.
Hyalella mexicana: ( aka scuds) finaly got a culture going ( bought starterpack in Germany). They are easy now, i put them in just a small tank, but also had them in all kind of tubs. I feed them cucumber. These i collect for my big tank mainly, the scuds are a bit to big for most small fish (apisto and smaller). The non eaten ones stay alive in the tank and are eaten when they are noticed. I've tried them in large quantities in a smaller tank ( breeding, so all sizes where in it), to see how self sustaining they where, but they harassed/ tickled a pair of apisto's that much in the night they jumped out of the tank (at least i guess that happened). These can be in lower numbers and probably sustain themselves in a densly planted lightly stocked tank.
Enchytreae en grindal worms: soil based cultures tend to crash every now and then, and i have mites on them ( these could originate from feeding bread). When i started them on clay granulate (Seramis) they are much more stable. When a culture starts to smell i can just rinse it in tapwater, carefully so the worms don't wash out, and feed them again. Mites are having a far harder time on granulate, and removing them after the food is gone is 1) easier and 2 ) more effective . I am sure i can get rid of them eventually. I feed the worms with soaked dog kibble, (soak in hot water for 30-60 mins, squash them onto the surface) , refeed when it's gone. I put a plastic card on top of the food, the worms will crawl onto that an i can brush them of with a wetted brush and dip that in the tank. I have found that the worms will need a bit of air, so leave a corner open or use a non- airtight container. Due to the high quality dogfood i believe this is a good food. I've used these exclusively on fish during a long time and ketp them healthy, and not to fat.
I've tried, and failed on Moina. but i want to try those again.
Brineshrimp: i've done those, but always found them to be a bit tedious. I am trying the daphnia dish right now (by Hobby)
grindal/enchytraeen


20170922_120057 by Ed Prust, on Flickr

Hyalella mexicana


20170922_120258 by Ed Prust, on Flickr


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## zozo (22 Sep 2017)

So there you were all this time.. Making Cappuccino's..



 Good to see you back..


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## Lindy (22 Sep 2017)

I started a worm culture for my discus and a by product has been the appearance of white worms. They eat food waste but  also fish food. The discus eat the big worms and I give the white worms to everything else as a treat. I made my worm farm out of a 25l beer brewing tub. Drilled holes in the bottom then covered the holes with filter floss. There is a vent cut in the middle of the lid. Bought the worms from I think the Yorkshire worm online shop.

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## dw1305 (23 Sep 2017)

Hi all,





Lindy said:


> a by product has been the appearance of white worms


They may be larval Earth-worms, there is a picture in <The "Full Monty".>

cheers Darrel


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## Lindy (23 Sep 2017)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,They may be larval Earth-worms, there is a picture in <The "Full Monty".>
> 
> cheers Darrel


I didn't want to trawl through 62 pages looking for themis it like these?






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## dw1305 (24 Sep 2017)

Hi all, 





Lindy said:


> I didn't want to trawl through 62 pages looking for them


On page 15.

Those could be "White Worms". The little things, that look like grains of sand, are <"cereal mites"> (they have a characteristic slightly unpleasant smell) and I get them in my cultures as well.

cheers Darrel


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## Aqua360 (25 Sep 2017)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, I keep <"Grindal worms">, <"Micro-worms">, <"Vinegar Eels">, _<"Daphnia">, <"Asellus, Crangonyx pseudogracilis">_ and <"Black-worms">. I also "ranch" Blood-worms and Mosquito larvae. I would normally have <"vestigial winged Fruit-flies"> as well, but I don't have a culture at the moment.
> 
> I was going to suggest buying a copy of Mike Hellweg's <"Culturing Live Food"> but that doesn't look to be an option, unless you win the lottery. I'm offering a discount on my copy, yours for just £400 (plus p&p) but only for friends.
> 
> ...



any tips on culturing microworms without the god awful smell?

I've got some hungry clown killifish, and looks like I'm going to need to feed them live; I've cultured microworms before, but the smell isn't the best. Unless I just sub-culture every couple of weeks, might be a solution?


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## AverageWhiteBloke (25 Sep 2017)

Aqua360 said:


> but the smell isn't the best.



How you doing this? I did the porridge oats and yeast version and it isn't that bad just the smell of yeast when you open the lid which isn't the worst smell in the world. My understanding is when it smells vinegary it's time to start a new culture. The only issue I have is they are so small nothing seems interested in them.


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## dw1305 (25 Sep 2017)

Hi all, 





AverageWhiteBloke said:


> I did the porridge oats and yeast version


I use porridge oats (cheap at Aldi, Lidl etc) as well, and the cultures don't smell. I've never tried dried instant potato, but I think these cultures smell more.

The worms bring the yeast themselves (so you don't actually need to add any), but if you want a lot of worms quickly you can add yeast (the worms actually eat the yeast, the oats are just the substrate for the yeast). 

I keep mine in the clear pots you get for coleslaw, hummus etc. in the supermarket. I  just punch a couple of holes in the lid, and re-culture every 6 weeks or so (small blob from existing culture into the dried oats, moisten and then adjust the moisture with water or more dry oats). 

Usually the culture looks a bit like hummus, and you can see a surface sheen, caused by the worms moving. When it gets wetter (it looks more like emulsion paint) I add some more oats, when the surface dries out I usually re-culture.  

cheers Darrel


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## Edvet (25 Sep 2017)

When i did microworms i had them in plastic tubs (icecream tubs and so). I mixed oatmeal with water and put it in the microwave till quite "solid" (like thick porridge i guess), let it cool and add fresh worms. I kept spare cultures in a fridge (stayed good for over a year). In the feeding tubs i put strips of coffee filter. The worms would cover those and then i could use a brush to wipe them off and feed them without touching the oatmeal. Transport a few scoops of the oatmeal to the fresh batch and you can keep them running.


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## zozo (25 Sep 2017)

dw1305 said:


> if you want a lot of worms quickly



In the early days we did it in the garden with an old charged car battery, some wire and 2 screwdrivers, connect all to the battery stick the screwdrivers into the ground, wait a few minutes and they all come up, ready to collect.


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## dw1305 (25 Sep 2017)

Hi all,





zozo said:


> In the early days we did it in the garden with an old charged car battery, some wire and 2 screwdrivers,


I've tried that, and washing up liquid, but "English Mustard" powder (_Sinapsis alba_) works really well. 

I don't fish any more, but if I did our compost bin (a large concrete block structure) has tens of kilo's of worms in it. 

cheers Darrel


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## dw1305 (25 Sep 2017)

Hi all, 





Edvet said:


> I kept spare cultures in a fridge (stayed good for over a year).


That is useful to know. 





Edvet said:


> In the feeding tubs i put strips of coffee filter. The worms would cover those and then i could use a brush to wipe them off and feed them without touching the oatmeal.


With a "see through" container you can see the worms extending up the side of the tub, and you can just swab them off the side with your finger (or a cotton-bud).

cheers Darrel


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## castle (25 Sep 2017)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,I've tried that, and washing up liquid, but "English Mustard" powder (_Sinapsis alba_) works really well.
> 
> I don't fish any more, but if I did our compost bin (a large concrete block structure) has tens of kilo's of worms in it.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Not fishing too much myself now either - a dozen times a year now, if I'm lucky - but I did experiment with making maggots by hanging some form of meat over a bucket in a shed and the maggots would fall into the bucket - they were pinkies if I remember correctly, spawn of the green fly. Smelt bad tho, and clearly not a clean environment.


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## Edvet (26 Sep 2017)

dw1305 said:


> With a "see through" container you can see the worms extending up the side of the tub, and you can just swab them off the side with your finger (or a cotton-bud).


I never got them "up" over the oatrmeal more then a few milimeter, but you can almost cover the substrate with filterpaper and use the whole surface to collect without the risk of collecting "porridge" too.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (26 Sep 2017)

Edvet said:


> I never got them "up" over the oatrmeal more then a few milimeter, but you can almost cover the substrate with filterpaper and use the whole surface to collect without the risk of collecting "porridge" too.


Mine are all up the sides and on the lid.





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## dw1305 (26 Sep 2017)

Hi all,





AverageWhiteBloke said:


> ........ and on the lid.


Time to re-culture.

cheers Darrel


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## AverageWhiteBloke (26 Sep 2017)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,Time to re-culture.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Ahh OK, thanks for the tip. It's only 6 days old this one. Been saving Chinese food tubs so I might as well get another one going in case anything happens to this one. 

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## AverageWhiteBloke (26 Sep 2017)

While we're on the subject, I harvest mine with an ice lolly stick and just scrape it off and straight in the tank. Worries me about the amount of yeast in the water column, can it cause problems?


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## Edvet (26 Sep 2017)

Put one portion in a closed tub in a fridge as a backup for emergencies.


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## Edvet (26 Sep 2017)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> f yeast in the water column, can it cause problems?


"in the old days; grandpa said": there was a theorie yeast would be beneficial, so we got a packet of bakers yeast, dissolved it in a liter of tapwater, and dispensed this straight in the tank.
Never hurt, not sure it was realy beneficial either


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## dw1305 (26 Sep 2017)

Hi all,





AverageWhiteBloke said:


> It's only 6 days old this one.


Brilliant, just add some more oats, and it should calm down.

When they explode like that usually you go into _boom and bust_ and it is when you've added some more yeast.

cheers Darrel


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## AverageWhiteBloke (26 Sep 2017)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,Brilliant, just add some more oats, and it should calm down.
> 
> When they explode like that usually you go into _boom and bust_ usually it is when you've added some more yeast.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Yeah I added a pinch of yeast on this one with it being my first but as you say I'll just use the yeast that comes in with some worms on the next one. 

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## Sarpijk (3 Oct 2017)

Edvet said:


> I've been messing around with live food cultures a lot last year. Had microworms (3 spp) (on oatmeal), no problems, but didn't need them anymore so neglected (and lost) cultures. I've had vinegar eels but didn't manage to keep those longer time.
> Hyalella mexicana: ( aka scuds) finaly got a culture going ( bought starterpack in Germany). They are easy now, i put them in just a small tank, but also had them in all kind of tubs. I feed them cucumber. These i collect for my big tank mainly, the scuds are a bit to big for most small fish (apisto and smaller). The non eaten ones stay alive in the tank and are eaten when they are noticed. I've tried them in large quantities in a smaller tank ( breeding, so all sizes where in it), to see how self sustaining they where, but they harassed/ tickled a pair of apisto's that much in the night they jumped out of the tank (at least i guess that happened). These can be in lower numbers and probably sustain themselves in a densly planted lightly stocked tank.
> Enchytreae en grindal worms: soil based cultures tend to crash every now and then, and i have mites on them ( these could originate from feeding bread). When i started them on clay granulate (Seramis) they are much more stable. When a culture starts to smell i can just rinse it in tapwater, carefully so the worms don't wash out, and feed them again. Mites are having a far harder time on granulate, and removing them after the food is gone is 1) easier and 2 ) more effective . I am sure i can get rid of them eventually. I feed the worms with soaked dog kibble, (soak in hot water for 30-60 mins, squash them onto the surface) , refeed when it's gone. I put a plastic card on top of the food, the worms will crawl onto that an i can brush them of with a wetted brush and dip that in the tank. I have found that the worms will need a bit of air, so leave a corner open or use a non- airtight container. Due to the high quality dogfood i believe this is a good food. I've used these exclusively on fish during a long time and ketp them healthy, and not to fat.
> I've tried, and failed on Moina. but i want to try those again.
> ...


Hi Edvet, I like the idea of using clay for grindal cultures. Do you reckon I could use some Seachem Flourite- which clay based- mixed with some gravel?


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## Edvet (3 Oct 2017)

Seramis is inert, don't know that on the product you mentioned. As far as i know all soils will get mushy eventualy. You don't need sand. Seramis won't compact and stay moist easily. In time some foul slush will gather at the bottom, due to the wetness of the food and the metabolism of the worms. Scooping of the top half and transfering that to a new batch will solve that. The bottom half can be rinsed and reused if you want. You can even save the worms if you do it carefully.


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