# am I loosing the battle against brown algae?



## Martin in Holland

yellow stones are getting brown faster than I can clean them...plants are still brown and even new leaves seem to get covered fast...
The plants are growing nice, great roots CO2 is high, spraybar from the back to the front over the whole length, EI ferts,
Twinstar does not help against this type of algae for sure....

The only thing I can think of are the lights (2x54W 6hr) . Those are cheap Chinese T5's ....I did read somewhere that sometimes not enough light could also cause of brown algae growth.


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## kirk

How big is your tank?


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## Rob P

I feel for you mate. In the last 3 months I've had BBA, stag, hair, thread and 'brown' algea. I've battled and won against most of these but the brown algae is the one i cannot totally get rid of and as you say it covers everything. Not as bad as once was in mine but still, there in places and slightly annoying...

How long have you had Twinstar running? I purposely left my rocks uncleaned when I installed it just over a week ago and i'd say it is now starting to do a number on them. Seems a few Twinstar users have seen more delay in it having an effect than others as well?

Likewise on the lights. I get this even when TMC's at 20% doing bi daily 50% water changes and in shaded areas as well which often makes you wonder how it could be too much light... !!

Hope you get it sorted!


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## tim

IMHO without light algae can not grow, t5's especially high output t5's whether Chinese made or not is high lighting. I never suffered diatoms when I had low light t8 tubes.


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## Martin in Holland

My tank is 120x55x45 high
Twinstar is running for 2weeks now
On the plus side, my otos aren't hungry

I'm still hoping the brown algae will go away after some more weeks...


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## Martin in Holland

I am going to try to give my tank a bit more light ....I know what you will say....but here is my theory, by giving my plants more light they would hopefully outgrow the brown algae instead of the other way around. I will also up the EI dosage by half ...lets see what will happen
At the moment I have brown plants instead of fresh green, I don't even dare to post pictures of my tank


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## Nathaniel Whiteside

Martin in China said:


> I am going to try to give my tank a bit more light ....I know what you will say....but here is my theory, by giving my plants more light they would hopefully outgrow the brown algae instead of the other way around. I will also up the EI dosage by half ...lets see what will happen
> At the moment I have brown plants instead of fresh green, I don't even dare to post pictures of my tank



Your lights sound too high. How long has the aquarium been established?
Diatoms?
Why not maintain current lighting and dose liquid carbon too? Then if you see an improvement, you'll know it was too much light 

Post a picture. You wuss!


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## Martin in Holland

Nathaniel Whiteside said:


> Your lights sound too high. How long has the aquarium been established?
> Diatoms?
> Why not maintain current lighting and dose liquid carbon too? Then if you see an improvement, you'll know it was too much light
> 
> Post a picture. You wuss!



What do you mean to much light...3.6W per liter for 6 hr even to much?....already do flourish excel overdosing....I know that the first action with algae is less light, but I also know that sometimes you can get brown algae with not enough light.

and I'm no wuss...just that my tank is only brown with more brown...haha


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## Ady34

Hi,
whilst I don't think your lighting is high, increasing it is unlikely to help.
How high above the water is your lighting unit and what turnover is your filter. I'm guessing your tank is around 300 litres which with 2x 54w t5 tubes isn't excessive IMO. Mark Evans used the same amount over his 120cm but raised to over a foot from the water surface and had excellent results so I don't think you need more light. I'd look at co2 again, either dustribution or quantity. Perhaps also increase water change frequency until the issue is resolved.
It is your tank however and experimentation is learning so you could always try the extra light and see 
Cheerio,
Ady.


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## Martin in Holland

Hi Ady,
I have 2 filters each with a turnover of 1550 l/hr both have a CO2 diffuser from 2 separate pressurized bottles, the CO2 is as high as the fish can handle. The filters outflow is thru 2 spray bars from the back aiming to the front. The water here (China) is high in silicic acid, but I change water anyway twice a week....I thinking of getting some silicate adsorbing resin if I can find it.
The lights are about 10 inches above the water.
Could it be that I didn't pack enough plants in the tank so the algae didn't get enough competition from the start?


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## Martin in Holland

a picture of the beginning



and this is now after brushing most stones. It's difficult to see, plant did grow they just look as brown as the substrate...haha...
There has been about 4 weeks in between pictures.


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## Nathaniel Whiteside

I'd say with a plant mass such as that, your lighting is excessive, for the time being. Cut it back to one tube, let the roots develop for a couple of weeks, then stick the bulb back in if you wish.

Also, as far as I'm aware, silica can be a cause of diatoms (I've read!) so this could exacerbate the brown algae.


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## Andy D

Let's see what Clive has to say about it - Diatom dilemma... | UK Aquatic Plant Society


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## Martin in Holland

Pulling the Clive card on me...hahaha...ok ok...I will dimm the lights
The roots are well developed (I rearanged a few and saw they had super good root system)


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## Martin in Holland

I want to get more plants into the tank (I am hoping that more plants will give me a better balanced tank), but is it wise to do this now or better wait until the brown algae problem has been resolved?


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## Aquadream

Martin in China said:


> My tank is 120x55x45 high
> Twinstar is running for 2weeks now
> On the plus side, my otos aren't hungry
> 
> I'm still hoping the brown algae will go away after some more weeks...


 
The light you have over this tank is way too powerful for a start up. You may have to lift it up by 30 cm or more above the water surface if that's possible. If not take out one of the tubes.


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## ceg4048

I completely agree with Aquadream.You need to do a 3-4 day blackout, after which the PAR levels should be lowered.

You are in PAR denial. There is no pill for this....yet....

Cheers,


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## Martin in Holland

Aquadream said:


> The light you have over this tank is way too powerful for a start up. You may have to lift it up by 30 cm or more above the water surface if that's possible. If not take out one of the tubes.


 


ceg4048 said:


> I completely agree with Aquadream.You need to do a 3-4 day blackout, after which the PAR levels should be lowered.
> 
> You are in PAR denial. There is no pill for this....yet....
> 
> Cheers,


 
No no, no denial anymore after they pulled the Clive card on me....I already did lower my light output as much as possible ...5 hours now only 2 tubes running (can't take one out cause for some reason the whole system doesn't work at all if I do) and also hang my lights higher 30cm above water level.....
I will do a black out for 3 days (covering the whole tank with black paper and some black KT board)...after this I can/ will cover parts of the lights to lower the light output as not to stress the whole system to much with to much light output

Thank for your reactions guys


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## Martin in Holland

Behind all this there is a fish tank hiding ...I'm sure I saw it a few minutes ago


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## Rob P

Good luck Martin!!

Make sure that gas is off and have you put an air pump on or lifted your outlets?!

Really hope for a positive result for you


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## Martin in Holland

Rob P said:


> Good luck Martin!!
> 
> Make sure that gas is off and have you put an air pump on or lifted your outlets?!
> 
> Really hope for a positive result for you



CO2 is off...no light, no need for it...I do hope that the spray bars make enough ripples...I am just wondering if I should feed the fish as they couldn't see the food?


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## ceg4048

Feeding the fish results in environmental conditions which favor algae and pathogens. The fish will not suddenly starve to death. They can go weeks without being fed. There will be plenty of things to eat as the algae turns into food under the blackout. People overfeed their fish anyway, so this might actually have the side benefit of training you how to not overfeed.

Cheers,


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## Martin in Holland

Why do you think I overfeed my fish?...joking...Maybe I do, although I don't think so...thanks for your answer, I won't feed them, scouts honer


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## Martin in Holland

Can someone explain why there are so many websites that tell you to give more light into a tank in case of brown algae? I know that brown algae can stay dormant in deeper darker water, but mostly they bloom (in ponds) in spring when conditions (read: light and nutrients) are favourable...but than of course disappear when nutrients are getting less because plants (or other algae ) use them. Or is it the same old story like the phosphate one?


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## stu_

Easy answer.
Don't read other websites...


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## Martin in Holland

What can I expect when I take away the "blinds" from my fish tank...will the brown be totally gone?...What do I need to do after taking away the "blinds" ?  except for ...1. large WC...2. clean filters...3. clean hoses and pipes...4. brush stones/ glass (before WC)


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## Rob P

When are you uncovering Martin? Fingers crossed you find positive results underneath...

Big wc & clean/filter clean sounds right to me from what i've read


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## Martin in Holland

Rob P said:


> When are you uncovering Martin?


 
I am going to see what's behind door nr. 1 tomorrow morning (Saturday), it has been 4 days than....Monday I will go on vacation for 10 days, so I also hope it will be ok when I come back. Before I go I will fert. with a liquid fert. which should be ok for one week, when I come home do a large WC again and start with EI fert


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## ceg4048

Martin in China said:


> Can someone explain why there are so many websites that tell you to give more light into a tank in case of brown algae?


Aren't these the same websites that caution you to control nitrates? And that too much PO4 is bad for you?

Cheers,


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## Martin in Holland

ceg4048 said:


> Aren't these the same websites that caution you to control nitrates? And that too much PO4 is bad for you?
> 
> Cheers,



Yep, even website from brandnames...which I will not mention here


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## Rob P

How's it looking Martin?


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## Martin in Holland

Rob P said:


> How's it looking Martin?



So far I'm not impressed, still pretty brownish. I guess (hope) that this will dissapear after a short while when the plant start growing again....the blackout also seem to have had a negative effect on some of the plants (some leaves melting and some other plants just broke off), but it could be that those plants where already having a bad time cause some just came from te shop and to avoid algaes from those I put them in water with excel for an hour and I may have overdone it with the excel....


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## Alastair

Martin in China said:


> So far I'm not impressed, still pretty brownish. I guess (hope) that this will dissapear after a short while when the plant start growing again....the blackout also seem to have had a negative effect on some of the plants (some leaves melting and some other plants just broke off), but it could be that those plants where already having a bad time cause some just came from te shop and to avoid algaes from those I put them in water with excel for an hour and I may have overdone it with the excel....



Sounds possibly like you have overdone the excel. Or left them too long soaking. 
Hope you get it under control.


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## Martin in Holland

It seems that the 4 day blackout and lowering the lights to 5 hr helped, but they (brown algae) are not totaly gone yet, also go a bit of BGA under substrate level on the front glas (up the KNO3 and put some black plastic at that spot)....

I will keep the lights down for a couple more weeks and sorting out a better/easier CO2 distribution, keeping up hope that one day it will al be perfect.


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## Martin in Holland

yes!....the brown algae are retrieving, plant are happy growing (slower than in the beginning but greener without algae covering the new leaves)...
Thanks for your help Clive and everyone else ...less is more in case of light so I keep my lights at 5hours and 3.6Watt per liter

The bit of blue-green algae is already almost gone too after I gave the tank more KNO3

I hope to post some fully grown planted tank pictures soon.....


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## Rob P

Martin in China said:


> Thanks for your help Clive and everyone else ...less is more in case of light so I keep my lights at 5hours and 3.6Watt per liter
> 
> I hope to post some fully grown planted tank pictures soon.....



Great news Martin  

Glad things are better, but don't let Clive hear you mention watts/litre, he's not a fan lol


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## ceg4048

WPL is irrelevant. Please refer to the applicable PAR charts for better accuracy.

Cheers,


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## Martin in Holland

I know that WPL is not accurate...but I'm not the proud owner of a PAR meter, so WPL is the best I can do for now...
Also my lights are hanging about 35 cm above the water which has an impact on PAR ....unless there is a free APP for my android or some other way to measure PAR , a PAR meter is a bit out of range for me


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## ceg4048

No, it's not the best you can do.

The best you can do is to look at the data presented in the post Dymax Tropical 36 watt | Page 4 | UK Aquatic Plant Society

Then you will see that the way in which PAR is distributed, fundamentally, is a function of the distance to the leaf from the surface of the bulb. WPL is meaningless because it does not take into account the vertical distance. So depending on the shape of the tank, as well as the shape of the bulb, the actual PAR distribution will vary.

If you use the chart, it will give you a level of accuracy of the PAR distribution that WPL could never dream of doing.

Cheers,


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## Martin in Holland

Cool....that's what I needed....
If I understand this graphic than this would mean that My PAR reading is somewhere between 50 and 80 (which is medium)
Very helpful indeed,
thanks again


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## Martin in Holland

Yes I'm back with some more Algae (?) problem....now it's a black one, it's not hairy like BBA or any of the other red algae and is very very very difficult to remove with toothbrush






the algae seems to only appear on the rocks
Do I still have to much light?.....I covered the lights today with some strips of a white plastic for about 40% because I can't take out one (of the 2) tubes...hoping this will help...tomorrow I will scrub and do a WC

Other comments on what could be the cause and/or the remedy for this are more than welcome.


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## ceg4048

Hi Martin,
				  Looks like it's in the BBA family so need to investigate CO2. I guess you don't have access to gluteraldehyde products out there so it's more elbow grease and crank the CO2. Not sure if you looked that the pH profile. Would be worth investigating further.

Cheers,


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## Martin in Holland

although my KH is 3 or less (which makes measuring PH less accurate)  I checked the PH before and it dropped about 0.8 when (from 7.4 to 6.6)...but I need to check again indeed, because I changed the way of putting CO2 into the water (direct into the filter inlet hose)....
I will try to find some glutaraldehyde ...anything that makes scrubbing easier is most welcome


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## ceg4048

If your kH is only 3 then you might need a 3 unit pH drop (or thereabouts) to get the same amount of CO2 in the water as the average person having higher KH.

Cheers,


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## Martin in Holland

Would otherwise a KH plus (Potassium carbonate K2CO3) product be more helpful?


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## Martin in Holland

or Calcium carbonate CaCO3 ...the GH is also low....


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## ceg4048

Martin, you cannot add CO2 to water by adding CaCO3. When you add lime to water you get lime dissolved in water, that's all. There is only one way to add CO2 to water and that is to add more CO2. Why do people have difficulty with this concept?

When we are trying to determine how much CO2 is dissolved in water, well, CO2 is the horse and pH is the cart. So adding CaCO3 to the water only changes the weight of the cart because that will only change how much the pH changes for the SAME AMOUNT OF CO2.

Cheers,


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## zanguli-ya-zamba

ceg4048 said:


> If your kH is only 3 then you might need a 3 unit pH drop (or thereabouts) to get the same amount of CO2 in the water as the average person having higher KH.
> 
> Cheers,


Hi Clive,

very interesting what you are saying there. I know that if KH is low than you need a bigger drop of the ph. But I didn't had a clue of how much.
How did you ESTIMATE that 3 point drop for a KH 3 ? that would be interesting to know lol.
So with my soft water like martin I should drop the ph that low ? It would mean that I will need to put my ph around 2,2 ?

martin sorry to hijack your thread but I have also CO2 problem with my soft water.
Just to let you know about the PAR chart, I really invite you to go and read the link that is in the thread. because you have a lot of info in that thread and it will be helpful for you to better understand how they have made that chart.

cheers


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## Martin in Holland

ceg4048 said:


> If your kH is only 3 then you might need a 3 unit pH drop (or thereabouts) to get the same amount of CO2 in the water as the average person having higher KH.
> 
> Cheers,





ceg4048 said:


> Martin, you cannot add CO2 to water by adding CaCO3. When you add lime to water you get lime dissolved in water, that's all. There is only one way to add CO2 to water and that is to add more CO2. Why do people have difficulty with this concept?
> 
> When we are trying to determine how much CO2 is dissolved in water, well, CO2 is the horse and pH is the cart. So adding CaCO3 to the water only changes the weight of the cart because that will only change how much the pH changes for the SAME AMOUNT OF CO2.
> 
> Cheers,



Uhm....I think I don't get it....
1. Having a lower kh means I have to add more CO2 (got it)how much more, my co2 bubbles like crazy already, almost a constant gasleak
2. Adding some kh+ will not help (?)

If my tap water is already kh 8 or more, doesn't that mean that with every WC, I also add kh....can't see the difference.

Please keep it simple for me, I am not a native english speaker.


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## ceg4048

OK, we'll start from the beginning.

KH is a measure of how much dissolved alkaline buffers are in the water.
Alkaline buffers, having a negative charge, attract and hold acid, which have a positive charge, thereby neutralizing acid.

Acid is essentially Hydrogen ion (H+). "+" means It has a positive charge.
Alkaline buffers such as (CO3--) have a negative charge (in this case a double "-" means it has a -2 charge and can therefore attract and hold 2 particles, each having a single "+" or 1 particle having a "+2" charge.
The negative charge of the CO3-- bonds to the H+ so that these positive charges are masked.

When you measure the pH of the water you are measuring the ratio of H+ to a different alkaline substance called Hydroxyl (OH-).

Can you see that when H+ combines with OH- you get [H:OH]? This is water, more commonly written as H2O. Although it's written as H2O it really isn't as if there are two Hs together. The first H+ bonds to the negative side of the OH- but gets as far away from the second H in OH as it can because in this situation they are both positively charged particles and so they repel each other.

In water that has a neutral pH (7) it turns out that there is an equal number of H+ and OH- floating around. At any one time H+ may bond to OH- to form H:OH, and the next moment they get broken apart and return to be free floating H+ and OH-. This happens continuously, however, on average, there will be an equal amount of the two.

When you add acid to this neutral water, a very similar thing happens with that acid. In your pool you would ad HCl which is a powerful acid that disassociates almost entirely into separate H+ and Cl- ions. Sometimes the odd H+ combines with the odd Cl-, but not very often. The H+ mostly hang around looking for trouble.

This "disassociation" changes the ratio of H+ to OH- in that water, so of course, when you measure the pH it will be lowered (acidic).

If we now add CaCO3 to the water, then the CO3-- will have a very strong attraction to the H+. They will combine to form H2CO3, and on average will stay combined. Some will again disassociate, but not very often. When this happens the extra H+ that were added to the water from the HCl addition are now removed from action (ie. they are not floating around as H+ anymore because they are joined to the CO3-- and they do not exert nearly as much positive charge "+" influence). So, if you now measure the pH, it will rise back up towards 7.

This is what happens when you overeat, get an upset stomach and then take some Chinese herb, or Alka-Seltzer in the West. Your stomach produces a lot of acid H+ in response to the food and whatever herb you then swallow HAS to be some form of alkaline buffer. In the case of Alka-Seltzer, or Tums, or whatever, it's just lime or bicarbonate. In your stomach the carbonate or bicarbonate bonds to the H+ and reduces their impact against tissues which are easily damaged by large quantities of positively charged H+.

If you tell me that your water has a low KH then that tells me immediately that there are not very many alkaline buffers in the tank. The CO2 produces a small amount of the weak Carbonic acid, and because there are few buffers in the water the ratio of H+ to -OH rises rapidly and so the pH falls rapidly.

If you then add alkaline buffers to the water, all that happens is that you "mop up" the free floating H+ with the buffers and the pH will rise. You would not have done ANYTHING about the CO2 content just by adding the buffers. You would just be affecting the pH reading that results from the same amount of Carbonic acid.

So when people have low KH water, a very small added amount of CO2, which produces a very small amount of Carbonic acid, has a tremendous impact on the pH because there are few alkaline controls. This would give a false sense of security because the problem in the tank is that there is a very small amount of CO2.

Because pH drop is our only indicator, we have to be aware that small amounts of CO2 generate large amounts of pH drops in water that has no buffer and that conversely, large amounts of CO2 added to water that has high alkalinity only drops the pH a very small amount because in high alkalinity water there is an ARMY of alkaline buffers which immediately mop up the small amounts of H+ from the Carbonic acid.

So, in low alkalinity water, the idea is to drop the pH even more than you would in high alkalinity water specifically because the poor buffering of the water, which results in a large pH drop fools you into thinking that there is a large amount of Carbonic acid produced by large amounts of CO2.

That's why, in the earlier post, I mentioned to you that with such low alkalinity the indication of a 1 pH unit drop was an illusion. The solution cannot possibly be to make the water more alkaline, because all that would do is cause an even smaller pH drop due to the buffers.

When people have medium-high alkalinity water, then the 1 pH unit drop makes sense because it means we must be pouring in a lot of CO2 in order to overcome the alkaline effects of that water. In low KH water it takes hardly any effort at all to overcome the alkalinity, because there aren't sufficient numbers of CO3-- in the water to arrest the fall in pH.

When people have high alkalinity, then we know that if we are able to effect even a minor pH drop of like 0.3 or 0.5 then this tells us we are pumping in a LOT of CO2 because high alkalinity water normally will not budge the pH at all, so if you can move the pH even a small amount then there must be an awful lot of Carbonic acid, which means there must be an awful lot of CO2.

Hope this makes some kind of sense....

Cheers,


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## Martin in Holland

Got it now....feel silly way I didn't see it before..

One questoin though. I read a post from Darren that measuring PH with a PH as low as mine is very very very unaccurate or even useless. Can't seem to find that post now...maybe he was talking about a PH pen?..

So how to get an accurate reading for my PH?

And, is there a Pocket Clive for all questions on the road.

Ok ...those where three questions...I'm really thankful for all your time, as I'm sure many others are


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## zanguli-ya-zamba

ceg4048 said:


> OK, we'll start from the beginning.
> 
> Cheers,



Thank you Clive for this nice explanation again !!!! This time you didn't take acid batterie example ?? Lol

We love you Clive hahaha


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## ceg4048

Yeah, well, too many people complained that their salad  did not taste good when they substituted battery acid for vinegar...

Cheers,


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## ceg4048

Martin in China said:


> One questoin though. I read a post from Darren that measuring PH with a PH as low as mine is very very very unaccurate or even useless. Can't seem to find that post now...maybe he was talking about a PH pen?..


pH reagents have a range that they change colors and probes have to be calibrated within a specific range. Bromothymol Blue as you can probably see from the dropchecker, goes yellow at about pH 6, so you'd need a different reagent to measure values below that. Methyl Red goes a few units below that and Thymol Blue a few more units down to about 2. If you are at a LFS then just look at the range that the reagents cover and also look at the ingredients.

For the probes, it's difficult to find calibration fluids that go below about 4. Usually you calibrate the probe from either 4 to 7 or from 7 to 10.

Anyway, that's one of the few good reasons to add CaCO3 to the water, just to keep the pH values up so you can actually measure it accurately.

Cheers,


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## Martin in Holland

Well anyway, even without PH measuring, it's obvious that my CO2 is still to low...now it's back to the drawing board to get a better CO2...*maybe my filters are to packed with floss, ceramic and carbon?* but it shouldn't have an effect on the amount of CO2 dissolved in the water...
My bubble counters are running so fast that no one would ever be able to count the bubbles per second, so is there another (better) way to get CO2 dissolved than putting the CO2 hose directly into the inlet hose to the filter(s)? I've tried a inline diffuser before, but they stopped working after a while....tried normal (in the tank) diffusers which where ok, I just don't like to see so much things in my tank (except for plants, fish rocks, wood, .... ) 
Any good idea is welcome ...


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## ceg4048

Hi Martin,
				You need to unpack your filter. Packed filters have a negative effect on flow/distribution. Get rid of most of the ceramic because they are a major drag to flow. In fact, the job of ceramic noodles are to slow the flow so that particulate matter falls out of suspension. Just put in some low drag foam and leave a couple handfuls of carbon in and call it good.

In a fish-only tank, there is no way, other than the sediment and filter media to oxidize NH3/NH4. In a planted tank plants contribute to the removal of NH3/NH4 via direct uptake, so you don't need as much nitrifying bacteria. Flow is much more important. Flow is King.

Cheers,


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## Sacha

Hmmmm, 
I might remove my ceramics as well then Clive


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## Sacha

The main reason I am keeping them in is in case the internal filter fails and I am relying on the external filter. I wanted to have enough media in there to keep the fish alive, should the internal impeller seize up (as it has done before).


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## Martin in Holland

I did read about the use of carbon and about using pot scrubs as filter media in 2 different topics....so yes I am going to drop my ceramics and do as Clive suggested

I will go with the flow ...peace out bro


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## Rob P

I think I may have to remove my ceramics as well. Was doing some major trimming last night and noticed a little staghorn algae on a couple of leaves (co2/flow issues), at the back mainly and therefore shielded from the main flow of CO2 bubbles and also receiving less flow. Trimmed off the affected leaves.

This prompted an 11pm thorough clean of filter, pipes, rearrangement of media etc and afterwards the difference in flow was amazing! Flow was really good before but had tailed off significantly. Didn't notice this day to day but after the clean last night (and it was only cleaned properly 2/3 weeks ago) I could clearly see why things must be kept 100%.

I even had to throttle the filter back down a little but definitely something to keep a close watch on, even if you think all is tickety boo


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## Sacha

So theoretically, what is the minimum amount of media you can put in an external filter in order to have sufficient bacteria colonies?


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## ceg4048

Yes, always, always, in fuel injected tanks the next problem is only just around the corner. The CO2 consumption results in the excretion of organic waste which accumulate in the sediment and filter media. You have to clean the filters a lot more often than in fish only or in non-injected tanks.

People look at Amano tanks and wonder why he can get away with less flow & CO2 than we advocate, but he has his own army of people looking, probing, cleaning and making adjustments. If you don't have your own personal army, then you have to use these other tools.



Sacha said:


> The main reason I am keeping them in is in case the internal filter fails and I am relying on the external filter. I wanted to have enough media in there to keep the fish alive,


If your plants are healthy then they do this job. That's the advantage of a planted tank.

Cheers,


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## ceg4048

Sacha said:


> So theoretically, what is the minimum amount of media you can put in an external filter in order to have sufficient bacteria colonies?


Really it's not possible to answer this question, but there are some tanks that don't have filtration at all. There are just too many variables. Whatever the number is, it's a lot less than what people use currently.

Cheers,


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## Sacha

Thanks Clive. Maybe I will do something drastic this week and remove all my ceramic media. This will leave me with one blue sponge, some bio balls, and some filter floss in the external filter.


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## Victor

Brown algae have something to do with CO2 badly distribution?


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## Rob P

Sacha said:


> Thanks Clive. Maybe I will do something drastic this week and remove all my ceramic media. This will leave me with one blue sponge, some bio balls, and some filter floss in the external filter.


 
My tetratec came fully packed with media (4 trays) and now just has the coarse sponge, a slightly finer one on top, ceramic noodles and a polishing pad. Oh, and an empty tray. With my fish keeping head on i'd be inclined to reduce your ceramic media a little at a time so as not to shock the system, i'm going to spread my noodles over two trays and gradually remove some over the next few cleans. However I may pop some carbon in from stuff i've read lately on here as well lol 

It's quite amazing how much crap it had gathered in 2 or 3 weeks, but then my growth has really taken off in the last month or so which explains an increase in waste. Less media = less to clean  (but not less often!).


----------



## Martin in Holland

Just looked into my tank and it looks that my brown algae are making a return...I hope that after this weekend when I've changed the inside of my filters I will get a better flow and with that a better algae control...


----------



## Martin in Holland

I made a mistake in calculating the PAR in my tank...I forgot that there are 2 T5's on and this doubles the amount and so my lights where also still to much...I've covered one T5 completely (as I can not take it out while this would stop the other one from working too) and even covered part of the other T5 with aluminum kitchen foil .... now my light should be in the low to medium light ...
still struggling with my tank, but with all the help from everyone here I'm sure I will be able to overcome all bumps on the way to successful planted tank


----------



## Martin in Holland

After cleaning out one of my filters I found tat it started to burb more often when the CO2 came on, so my guess was that it only give out burst of CO2 bubbles which don't dissolve well. Now I've put the CO2 hose directly into the outlet hose of the filter (the one that goes to the spray bar). I can see the CO2 going into the hose being picked up by the water current but don't even see any mist or bubbles coming out of the spray bar, could it be that the CO2 is dissolved already?  It's about 20 inches being injected from the start of the spray bar....is yes than way would anyone need a inline diffuser?


----------



## ceg4048

Yes, filters make great CO2 diffusers as long as the flow is strong. If you remove some media to improve the flow the overall dissolution will be better. Again, you'll need to look at the pH profile in this configuration to confirm that there is an improvement.

Cheers,


----------



## Martin in Holland

ceg4048 said:


> Yes, filters make great CO2 diffusers as long as the flow is strong. If you remove some media to improve the flow the overall dissolution will be better. Again, you'll need to look at the pH profile in this configuration to confirm that there is an improvement.
> 
> Cheers,


 
As I am limited in material for testing PH here in China and also have a bit of trouble with the language, I have to look at my plants.... when my plants where going well I simply had 2 cheap diffusers in my tank (at the front glass)....so I am thinking of switching back to this, because now even some easy plants are struggling...

The CO2 is not going through the filter at the moment (don't know if you got that part)


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## ceg4048

One should always be careful when looking at the tank retrospectively. It's very easy to get tunnel vision and to pick our favorite factor when things were going well. Should the earlier success be attributable only to the fact that two cheap diffusers were being used at the time? Are there no other possible factors?

Can't you find a pH pen on-line in Hong Kong and have it shipped? 

Cheers,


----------



## Martin in Holland

I have a PH pen, but with my KH being 2 to 3 it's not very useful and, like you where saying before, I don't want to put lime into the water as of yet...if there is no other way than of course I will.

I won't do anything drastic...let's wait and see for a few weeks first

I just want to do it right with my tank and be proud of it, like everyone else


----------



## Martin in Holland

I am still not happy with the growth (and algae) in my tank.....I changed the way of diffusing CO2 (2 inline diffusers 2 /separate pressure bottles/ manny bubbles per second)...changed the lights (now have 1 T5 about 80cm hanging above the plants/ on for 5.5 hours)...I have 2 filters with each an output of 1550 liter per hour  (only some carbon and 1 layer floss in them/ spray bars along the back of the tank facing to the front)....do WC twice a week 50% ....dosing EI and Excel....Temperature is set on 25 celcius
My tank is 120 long x 45 heigh x 55 deep. What else can I do to get it better?

here a picture of one spray bar to let you guys judge if the outflow is strong enough (keep in mind that my tank is 55cm deep)...plants are waving all over the tank though.


----------



## Martin in Holland

I'm slowly thinking in changing to low tech...but I also want to know what I am doing wrong...I want to succeed in doing it right...but I need help


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## ceg4048

That looks weak. The jets should impinge on the front glass.

Could it be that you are using filter hoses that have too small a diameter, or kinked hoses? They should do a better job than that, especially if you have minimal media in them.

I advised some time ago that a pH profile check was the best way to perform an analysis.
Your response was that you did not want to raise the alkalinity just to be able to get an accurate pH reading.

So now you are contemplating changing your entire methodology? And that is more desirable than adding a few teaspoons of Bicarbonate for a few days?

Cheers,


----------



## Victor

My water jets is like this in Martin's tank. But my holes on spraybar are bigger and numerous. So, it's ok? Or should I decrease the holes diameter to water reach the front glass?


----------



## Martin in Holland

I'm going to order some Bicarbonate and do a good check on my pH.
Would it be good to change the spray bar holes (making a new one with smaller holes) or would that only be working against the whole flow system?
I've checked my hoses for kinks...negative on that...they are the hoses which came with the filter (16/22).
I also still have a wave maker with an output of 3000 liter per hour which I could place in the middle of the tank (between the 2 spray bars), would that be good or to strong?


----------



## Martin in Holland

How many grams of CaCO3 should raise the KH by 1 degree in a 280liter tank?...or is K2CO3 better to use?


----------



## ceg4048

Well, 1 degree of German KH is about 18mg/L CaCO3. 
So the calculation is pretty easy:
(18mg/L) x (280L) = 5040mg
That's about 5 grams, which is about 1 teaspoon.
Probably you only have 80% of that as actual volume, but you can work all that out, and it really isn't that important. 3 or 4 teaspoons a week at water change time is so easy it's ridiculous. There's no reason to fear this powder. People drink it and bath in it every day. What's the big deal?




Victor said:


> My water jets is like this in Martin's tank. But my holes on spraybar are bigger and numerous. So, it's ok? Or should I decrease the holes diameter to water reach the front glass?


Yes, you just have to experiment with different hole sizes using cheap PVC piping. Again, you may not need to do anything with the bar. Check the pH profile and see if an injection rate increase or a different timing of the gas solves the problem.  You have to take a holistic approach to CO2.

Cheers,


----------



## Martin in Holland

I am thinking in changing the light bulbs above my fish tank. I know this won't resolve my algae and plant growth problem, but I just don't like them, the light is a bit dull.
How about T5 LED tubes which could replace the normal T5 bulbs. Does anyone has had any experience with those? How is the light? How different are they in PAR?


----------



## Martin in Holland

ceg4048 said:


> You have to take a holistic approach to CO2.
> 
> Cheers,



What's do you mean by this?

Could you try to explain to me how "maybe" more current would dissolve more CO2 ?
I do think I don't get enough CO2 dissolved in the water column and I am going to improve my spray bars tomorrow...but how could I possibly get a better CO2 dissolving (if needed, I need to do a proper pH per 30 minutes check)?


----------



## ceg4048

Hi Martin,
             In response to Victors query, when I mentioned the idea of "holistic", what I'm saying is that when you think about CO2, you have to see it as the central theme, let's say, as in a novel, for example. Everything revolves around the Carbon Cycle. 

In a tank, there are more ways of getting CO2 to the plant than just turning up the injection rate, as we know. The distribution method being used is not just "can I punch the water jets to the front glass?" It's more about "can I move a large enough volume of water across the surface of the leaves in order to reduce the boundary layer thickness", or, "can I saturate the water column sufficiently to improve the CO2 partial pressure?" It can also be as simple as "can I reduce the _need_ for higher partial pressures?"

I think I mentioned in another post that it's often the case that CO2 failures occur at the beginning of the photoperiod, and that at the tail end of the day, it's quite possible that the CO2 level is high, but by that time, the plants don't care because they have decided to do other things instead of fixing Carbon to make sugar. There is a schedule to be followed, so that Carbon delivery has to be made according to that schedule. The flow rate through the spraybars or the injection rate through the diffuser may not matter if the timing of the gas is off schedule.

That's why I thought it bizarre when you decided against adjusting the alkalinity of your water in order to more accurately measure the availability of the very thing that is responsible for the growth performance of the plants. Once you can more accurately determine the behavior of the gas then it tells you how to move forward. The pH data tells you how efficient the other things that you do are, so this information is fundamental.

Porting the gas through the filter, having an on-schedule gas delivery, being careful with the lighting, as well as flow energy and distribution patters all work together to produce the results you're looking for. The bigger the tank, the more important all these items become.

Cheers,


----------



## Martin in Holland

Thanks for being so patience with me mate...I wasn't against adjusting the alkalinity but I was more hoping I wouldn't need it...next time just tell me to DO IT


----------



## Martin in Holland

wow...just trow 5gr of lime into the tank, the fish need fog lights now  ...
I am going up the KH by one degree for 3 days, that way the fish won't get to hard of a shock and by Sunday I hope to get some time to take a good pH reading during the day.


----------



## ceg4048

Yeah, CaCO3 is not very soluble. Not to worry. As the pH falls the solubility will increase.

Cheers,


----------



## Martin in Holland

After one hour the water was clear again, it's probably all in the filter now but will solute from there. I will test the KH today as I'm thinking to go to a KH of 6 by Sunday to be sure that my pH readings are correct.


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## ceg4048

Yep, some tanks have hardscape that contain CaCO3 which dissolves and raises the alkalinity. Coral sand or any limestone material is composed of CaCO3,  so if you were bored with adding the powder regularly, you could just add crushed coral or limestone material in the filter or use it in the sediment.

Cheers,


----------



## Martin in Holland

I only need to add CaCO3 to take a pH recording...right?....after that, I can stop adding the powder or is it for some reason better to keep adding. I have a year's supply CaCO3 anyway

Greatings from China


----------



## Martin in Holland

Here we go....
I couldn't resist to up my CO2 yesterday...also already made new spray bars with smaller holes a few days ago, the power is so much that they spray out of the tank if the water level drops below them (I aimed them a little down, just enough so they wouldn't be able to spray outside the tank)

Here is my tank's pH chart during the day.

*KH = 5*

started the measure pH at 9:00 stopped at 20:30

Time       pH        Light      CO2    
9:00         7.8         off          off
10:00        7.8         off          off
11:00        7.8         off          off
12:00        7.8         off          off
13:00        7.5         off          *on *(on for about 15 minutes)
14:00        6.8         off          on
15:00        6.6         on          on
16:00        6.6         on          on
17:00        6.6         on          on
18:00        6.5         on          on
19:00        6.5         on          on
20:00        6.4         on          off (just went off)
20:15        6.4         off          off

I really hope I got it right now...but I guess we have to wait now.....


----------



## ceg4048

Hi Martin,
                 The trend looks good but you might need to tweak the injection rate a little.

Cheers,


----------



## Martin in Holland

ceg4048 said:


> Hi Martin,
> The trend looks good but you might need to tweak the injection rate a little.
> 
> Cheers,



Tweak is good...in which direction?....a little down (less bubbles)?...or did you mean time wise?


----------



## ceg4048

You might need to add more as well as to reduce the time to reduce toxicity. This is an interactive procedure so you have to look at the improvements and decide from there

Cheers,


----------



## Martin in Holland

Thanks, I will leave it as it is for now and see what it will do....after a week or so I may tinker a bit here and there, but for now I want the plants to recover.


----------



## Martin in Holland

After two weeks with this "new" CO2 treatment and much better flow, my plants are still not growing as they should be...although the Crypts are doing great and the Staug. sp is looking a bit healthier, but it's not a happy fresh green tank yet.
*Is there anything I missed?*...I *don't dare* to give the tank more light (15 or 30 min)


----------



## Martin in Holland

It even looks as if the brown algae are still growing on some plants, mostly the carpet "Monte Carlo", the carpet is growing toooo slow and can not outgrow the algae


----------



## Martin in Holland

still not really growing and brown algae creeping in again...it looked like it started to grow more just a little over a week ago, but now????...I didn't change anything accept for putting the inline atomizer from the filter outlet hose to the filter inlet hose, but the Ph readings are the same
I


 

Though my crypts are left alone by the brown algae


----------



## Victor

Martin in China said:


> still not really growing and brown algae creeping in again...it looked like it started to grow more just a little over a week ago, but now????...I didn't change anything accept for putting the inline atomizer from the filter outlet hose to the filter inlet hose, but the Ph readings are the same


 You should decrease your lighting even more. Try to cover yours light tubes with paper, use glue for this. This kind of algae benefits themselves from excessive light as Ceg said in another thread.


----------



## Martin in Holland

Hi Victor,thanks for your advice, but if you reed a little more back into this thread you can see that my light is already at it's minimum (low to medium) ...in this thread there is also a PAR schedule which I follow


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## ceg4048

Hi Martin,
              Can you tweak the gas a little more, or are you at the limit for fish? 
Cut out the damaged sections and discard.

Cheers,


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## Martin in Holland

ceg4048 said:


> Hi Martin,
> Can you tweak the gas a little more, or are you at the limit for fish?
> Cut out the damaged sections and discard.
> 
> Cheers,



The fish are doing fine so far...I will tweak the gas a bit more, turn it on a bit earlier too and cut away what needs to be cut away (brown algae leaves)...lets see...keeping up hope. 

Isn't it strange that the crypts don't show any sign of brown algae what so ever?


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## ceg4048

No, I don't find this strange at all. Is it strange that Usain Bolt can run 200 meters in under 20 seconds, yet Martin in China, if placed on the same track, probably requires 30 seconds (with the wind) to complete that distance? 

Species have different abilities based on their evolutionary path, and individual specimens also have different abilities. The crypts have adapted to the CO2 and lighting conditions. In nature, crypts are often found submersed, but HC is normally found only semi-flooded. HC therefore does not need to be as efficient because the leaves above the water can get CO2 anytime.

Cheers,


----------



## Aquadream

Some recent findings from me.
It looks like this is a tank with Amazonia substrate.
If so you will need to use pretty good amount of active carbon in the filter. Why? Because after year of experiments I have determined that Amazonia releases some kind of compound (likely organic in nature) that inhibits CO2 absorption by the plants. That's why every start with Amazonia (manufactured after 2012) have to include good amount of active carbon. The carbon appears to remove what ever inhibits the CO2 absorption and plants can actually feed.
The active carbon will have to be replaced approximately every 30 days very likely forever or for as long as you use Amazonia.
Also after start up water changes have to be constant 50% once every other day for no less than a month.
And of course push the CO2 levels until the checker gets yellow. It is preferable if you do not turn off the CO2 ever so the plants will have enough CO2 as soon as the lights come on.

IMPORTANT! Under the circumstances mentioned above do not use anything to raise the KH. It will be in your best interest to keep the KH as low as possible. I tried to boost the KH a bit above 0 and the effects were all negative, because with Amazonia this days it seem almost impossible to inject enough CO2. So raising the KH will only make matters worse.

I have initiated a full restart on my tank with Amazonia about a month ago following what I just suggested and it looks perfect for the lack of a better word.
Some plants still do not propagate as I want them so I removed them and left all other plants that can grow well in this conditions. HC is magnificent.


----------



## viktorlantos

Micranthemum Sp Monte Carlo is a light demanding plant guys. If you reduce the light this plant will looks very bad.

We do grow this plant in awesome speed and perfect condition. But make sure this is in an open space and get enough light. Not as picky to CO2 as HC, but for light it is.

You may have the algae on the carpet becasue the plant is strugling. And the soil is still not covered with plants.
Otherwise there are nice alternatives if you stick with the lowering light strategy like marsilea etc


----------



## Martin in Holland

@ aquadream; Thanks for your help. My filters are already packed with a good amount of active carbon, also the substrate is already a couple of months old and I use Amazonia in my other tanks with no problem at all.

@ Victor; I use to have high light on Micranthemum Sp Monte Carlo, but this didn't made it look any better than it does at the moment and I have some other plants which also suffer from the same symptoms (brown algae and not growing)...have said that, if it fails with more CO2 I am willing to give a some more light and see what will happen (just scared that it will only increase the growth of brown algae or even other types of algae)...if that also would not work for me I have no trouble in rescaping (as the rocks don't look nice anymore) with the use of easier plants like crypts.

The thing is that I just want to know how to get it perfect, cause *if I'm not able to get it right now, I won't be able to get it right ever.....*


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## viktorlantos

Also have your algae crew there in your tank. Siamese, plenty of shrimps.


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## Martin in Holland

viktorlantos said:


> Also have your algae crew there in your tank. Siamese, plenty of shrimps.



Yes...loads of shrimp (I can catch them here in a nearby stream) Otos and Siamese[DOUBLEPOST=1396951825][/DOUBLEPOST]





ceg4048 said:


> Is it strange that Usain Bolt can run 200 meters in under 20 seconds, yet Martin in China, if placed on the same track, probably requires 30 seconds (with the wind) to complete that distance?



What makes you I couldn't out run Usian Bolt mate?.....Just put a spider behind me and I will run faster than a speeding bullet.


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## roadmaster

Martin in China said:


> Yes...loads of shrimp (I can catch them here in a nearby stream) Otos and Siamese[DOUBLEPOST=1396951825][/DOUBLEPOST]
> 
> What makes you I couldn't out run Usian Bolt mate?.....Just put a spider behind me and I will run faster than a speeding bullet.


 

I'm with you on the spider's.
Approx twenty year's ago, I was wading through some chest high weed's just before daylight, to access the bank's of my favorite pond.
After arriving at the edge of the pond and making the first cast of the morning,I felt something on my arm and without giving it a thought ,brushed away whatever it was. then I felt something on the back of my neck, and arm as well.
I looked down to see that I was nearly covered from waste to chest with large black and yellow garden spider's that apparently had strung web's across the weed's I had just tromped through.
I am not ashamed to say I screamed like a school girl ,tossed my rod's and tackle box as far as I could back over the weed's and scooped em up on a dead run while at the same time,,trying to swat away the remaing spider's still crawling about on my person.
I don't do spider's very well to this day, and very much resemble a swordsman waving my rod's out in front of me when wading through weed's  whether I can see the critter's or not.
That single expierience I am certain, took ten year's off me.


----------



## Edvet

lol


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## Martin in Holland

I gave a little more CO2 and Ph dropped to 6.2 (coming from 6.4), but now my fish are having trouble staying upright ...so I was at the highest CO2 level my fish can handle already.....

For now I turned of the CO2 and amed the spray bars more up to get more ripples....


----------



## Martin in Holland

Fish are fine now....but can't give it more gas (CO2)...I'm out of options....


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## Aquadream

Martin in China said:


> Fish are fine now....but can't give it more gas (CO2)...I'm out of options....


Change the substrate for another brand and start over. In my last aquascape with Amazonia I had the same problem and ended up poisoning half of my fish with CO2 to just keep the plants to look ok, but not near as good as I know them to be.
As dramatic as it may sound I called that scape "Rupture in me" because it got me in trouble that I had never experienced in 30 years of my hobby.

Now I am again with Amazonia, because I purchased last year a lot of it and have to use it some how. All looks fine, but there are constant CO2 deficiency signs in most plants, that never go away.


----------



## Martin in Holland

I tested (after WC) the TDS in my tanks...the 300ltr tank has 250 ppm...the 40ltr tank only 120 ppm...tap water here has 60 ppm. Could this be one of the reasons why CO2 dissolves so bad into the water? Does Amazonia resolves in a higher TDS?
Which substrate could I use next time?... Is plain gravel ok (maybe with some pond subtrate under it)?


----------



## Andy D

Aquadream said:


> Change the substrate for another brand and start over.



I find it hard to believe that something as popular and widely used as Amazonia would be causing the issues you are experiencing. There are lots and lots of people on here who use this stuff and produce stunning scapes.


----------



## Martin in Holland

Andy D said:


> I find it hard to believe that something as popular and widely used as Amazonia would be causing the issues you are experiencing.



Me too, but at this moment I believe almost everything.


----------



## Aquadream

Andy D said:


> I find it hard to believe that something as popular and widely used as Amazonia would be causing the issues you are experiencing. There are lots and lots of people on here who use this stuff and produce stunning scapes.


Do you find it hard to believe that once any big company gets stable share of the market they also start downgrading their product quality for the sake of greater profit. So many companies went this way, like bloody all of them.
Check this tread out. I have published rock solid evidence for anyone with common sense to judge for them selves.

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/eco-complete-or-ada-soil.32572/page-2#post-346187

I have increased the CO2 in my tank to 4+ bps, 24/7. CO2 checker never gets away from yellow colour. CO2 deficiency signs are still there. The only thing that saves the day is me keeping 50% water changes every other day for as long as I have stamina to do it. After the first 30 days of recommended ADA maintenance the problems did not went away. The likelihood is that I will become like one of the ADA employees cleaning my tank every night to be able to keep it nice.
So my new hobby now is an aquascape tank cleaner.


----------



## Martin in Holland

Still the question for me is, which substrate to use?...more Japanese brand available here (same price as ADA brand though), I could even go for Akadama....


----------



## tim

Martin in China said:


> Still the question for me is, which substrate to use?...more Japanese brand available here (same price as ADA brand though), I could even go for Akadama....


Question is though Martin, what will you do if you change the substrate and encounter the same issues ? I'd be tempted to set up a couple of experiments with small containers using different substrates and the one you have in your main tank and keep all other params the same light water plants all from the same source and see what happens a rescape is a big job on a tank that size, I would want to be sure it is a substrate fault/issue first.


----------



## Martin in Holland

I'm not going to throw out this substate jet...I am more thinking for my new scape to be....so my question should actually be, "which substrate is good, beside Amazonia?"


----------



## Martin in Holland

CO2 as high as I possibly can get it without killing fish, light period (of only 1 T5 hanging 13" above the tank) of 5.5hr a day, 2 filters, spraybars.... and still have brown algea, I even get some BGA (no sunlight is getting near that part of the tank)....
It's kinda frustrating


----------



## ceg4048

Hi Martin,
                It's frustrating, I know, but hang in there! You can do another blackout or you can do what I call a "soft blackout" where you just disable the light and shut down CO2 for a few days. Lots of water changes of course.

Cheers,


----------



## Martin in Holland

Any idea why some plants let some of their leaves (the lower once) go?


----------



## petn

I know Clive is gonna eat me alive but otos r gonna love to help u for the start and after that u never gonna see the diatoms again,promisse.cyanobacteria is offten connected with low nitrates and low flow at the same time. Increase dosing of kno3, make sure not dead spots concerning flow, get four otos and il be surprised if u not happy after seven days.of course staying low with ur light for some time yet. Bet you. Good Martin

Sent from my HTC One mini using Tapatalk


----------



## petn

Good luck I meant 

Sent from my HTC One mini using Tapatalk


----------



## Martin in Holland

petn said:


> I know Clive is gonna eat me alive but otos r gonna love to help u for the start and after that u never gonna see the diatoms again,promisse.cyanobacteria is offten connected with low nitrates and low flow at the same time. Increase dosing of kno3, make sure not dead spots concerning flow, get four otos and il be surprised if u not happy after seven days.of course staying low with ur light for some time yet. Bet you. Good Martin
> 
> Sent from my HTC One mini using Tapatalk



I already have 9 otos, 5 SAE and 50 or more shrimp...also dosing 2x the normal dose of KNO3....flow is super after some experimenting...CO2 is at max
That's why I got a bit frustrated


----------



## petn

Oh I see Martin. In that case I would suggest to approach it from the other side.more health y fast growing plants ?! if you don't want to touch your scape try floating plants,lots floating plans. Or even just ceratophyllum demersum and let it flow loosely?! Once the plants take over, those fancy ones should catch up?! Hope I'm not missing something here again. Sun light blocked btw?I know silly,sorry. good luck Martin you seem been struggling with that one for some time now. P

Sent from my HTC One mini using Tapatalk


----------



## Antoni

Hi Martin,

Sorry to read about your frustration.... For how long the 2 filters have been running on this tank? Are they well established and colonised? Might be a good idea to introduce some bacteria in them, to give the colony a boost. On water change, for how long do you keep the filters off? If you keep them off for longer than 30 min,  the bacteria are very likely to suffocate and you can loose a considerable percentage of the colony.  

Recently I have similar problem, I was using only one filter on my 60 cm, but as it is very heavily planted it was difficult to manage the bio load. To make things worst, we had a power cut off, because of a fault and the filter was off for more than 6 h, just couple of days after Introduction of the new fish and after a massive trim... In 2 days time, ammonia spike hit and I lost 70 % of the fish, brown algae covered all the plants, GSA covered the glass.. it was looking devastated. I was quick to install the second filter, but for the next 10 days....no improvement, despite the massive water changes. Then I have introduced some bacteria to the both filters and kept going with the regular water changes, high ferts, high CO2 etc. 10 days ago, I have decided to use H2O2 to clear the algae covering the plants. I have used a small spray bottle and sprayed the glass, the hardscape and over the plants(but plants were under the water level - I was spraying under water!!. If sprayed directly on plants when emmersed, most likely it will kill them!!). Waited about 5 minutes and then filled the tank back with fresh water. After few hours everything was still pearling and by the evening, all the algae were completely gone. Fish and shrimps were ok, didn't look stressed much. Next day, I did another massive water change to remove all the dead algae. Instantly I could see improvement in the plants, they were free of algae and were starting to grow again. I have used about 40 ml of H2O2 in 50 l tank.

Regarding the GSA - I sprayed them, but didn't remove them to see how they will behave. A week later they were still on the glass, but not growing at all and kind of brownish in colour. Last Saturday, I have scraped them off with a plastic card and they came off as a whole peace, completely dead. I use the H2O2 for spraying on the glassware as well and they are nice and clean, without the need of touching them. 

Disclaimer: Now I would not advice use of any chemicals in the tank unless as very last resort, even though the H2O2 is basically Hydrogen and oxygen compound and is very mild. Always I would first try to remove the source of the problem, not the symptoms. I have decided to use H2O2, as I couldn't find a way to remove the algae from the plants (especially carpet and stems) and the algae were suffocating them - it was that bad. 
My plants were not damaged after the use of H2O2, but I can't say if it will affect other species. 

I have done some reading about the H2O2. No serious study has been made, but apparently it bonds with organic compounds or metal ions in order to release the O2. However one need to be careful as at certain( unknown for me) concentration, because of its chemical reactivity, it might become toxic(releasing heavy metal ions and other organic elements while breaking the compounds).

It also affects single cell organisms ... like algae and bacteria. Now I am not sure if it affects a lot the beneficial bacteria in the tank....it probably does, but from what I have read it is not very strong antibacterial product, so hopefully does not affect them much.


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## Martin in Holland

Antoni, did you turn off your filters while spraying H2O2 ?....if I reed it correct, you sprayed while all water was still in the tank than after 5min. did a water change, is that correct?

Petn, good idea to use some floaters for a while, at least they will get some more TDS out of the water.


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## Antoni

Hi Martin, the filters were off. I actually drained some of the water prior and then sprayed, but yes plants were all under water. Then after 5 min (until I prepared the water etc)I have filled it back in and switched the filters on.


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## petn

I believe in the "within ecology" way Martin.personally i wouldn't put anything toxic such hydrogen 

Sent from my HTC One mini using Tapatalk


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## petn

peroxide. Sorry that was my phone sending before I was ready I think the plants will do it's job and once you get the balance sorted all ok.Good luck

Sent from my HTC One mini using Tapatalk


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## petn

Just to say I did hydrogen peroxide once struggling with algae but floating plants are going to help with balance and on the end are the only true solution.in my case hp didn't help much,just gave me fear that I'm killing what I need to stay alive to be honest.

Sent from my HTC One mini using Tapatalk


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## Martin in Holland

one bottle (2 liter) of CO2 is empty again, after less than a week. I just checked for leaks......this is every week the same....

I am really thinking of giving up .... don't know what to do any more....


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## Edvet

Could you do a picture, maybe we miss something Obvious.


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## Martin in Holland

I can even do better...I will upload a YouTube movie about the whole tank with installation..
Won't be the best of quality, making it with cell phone and my kid is watching cartoons in the same room


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## Antoni

Please upload the video! It looks like there is a leak. No way to go through that much of co2 in a week.


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## Edvet

Martin in China said:


> making it with cell phone and my kid is watching cartoons in the same room


 no worries, i always have cooking sounds by my wife on the background


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## Martin in Holland

Here is the link to the YouTube movie...It's very shitty, but I think it will give you guys an idea


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## Antoni

Hi Martin,

lovely tank to be! From what I can see the surface agitation is quite strong and that reduces the amount of the dissolved co2 in the tank. You are pumping enormous amount of it in 
One question - is the diffuser only one? Couldn't see, where the co2 hose from the front bottle is going? Perhaps to a diffuser on the second filter? The diffuser is attached to the intake, so the co2 should dissolve pretty well before it reaches the tank. 
I would check any single connection of the co2 for leaks. Sometimes especially if the tubing is more stiffer, the connections on the needle valve and the bubble counters might get a bit loose in time... This is where you might be wasting significant part of the co2. maybe you can lower slightly the spray bar so the water stream doesn't break the water surface that much. 

From what I see on the video there are some black spots on the stones - is that bba or the pattern of the rock, If bba then it is a symptom of co2 problem.... 
Plants are melting because they either don't get enough light or co2. 

With the current circulation pattern, I think the circulation to the back end, where the stems are is blocked by the large stones which might be one of the reason why the stems on the back are struggling.

I also think your light is way to low for healthy growth.... I know most of the people will advocate the opposite, but one T5 only so high above the water..... IMO the carpet is far from getting enough light and is struggling. 

Regarding the filters...from what you mentioned in the video, the media is only floss, a bit of active carbon and sponges..... I would introduce gradually  more biological filtration media with more surface for the bacteria to colonise (as Victor mentioned earlier - pumice, alfagrog, ceramic rings etc ). This will improve the water quality by reducing the harmful organic compounds in the tank.


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## Edvet

A) it doesn't look that bad to me
B) i would keep on this track for a while, just make sure you don't have leaks, keep doing waterchanges and ferts


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## parotet

Regarding the co2 leaks don't forget to check with a soap/water solution and a small brush every single connection but especially the connection between the reg and the bottle... Here the amount of co2 lost can be enormous.


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## Martin in Holland

I checked for leaks already twice, but will check again...the filter is filled like it is following Clive's advice on this,  same about the lights...the spots on the stones indeed look like BBA to me too...al the things happening in my tank point to not enough CO2 but with just a bit more my fish struggled...

I think I've done all I can so I'm open to suggestions


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## Andy Thurston

Take the fish out and nuke it with co2


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## viktorlantos

@Antoni made many great points.

Your CO2 is too much for this size of tank. Why you have 2 bottles? Where the other one is going?
You basically pumping out the CO2 from the tank with the high spray bar and with this much surrface aggitation.

So would be better to push down the showers like 4-5 cm and turn it a little down.
Also you have very powerful filters and these guys do LOTs of current there, this is one of the reason why the CO2 is running out quickly from your tank.
And also a reason for your Brush algae. Til the carpet is not covered fully, i highly recommend to slow down the filters like 60% of the current one, as you just disturb the bottom area and feed the brush with it.

I would introduce more Otocinclus like 5 more. And 2-4 Neritina snails to help with the decor cleaning.

You burn like 3-4 times more CO2 than you should. Stop doing that  One atomizer is fine for this tank with one cylinder and around 3 bps in the counter.


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## Martin in Holland

That other CO2 bottle is hooked up to another atomiser on the other side ...two filters...two bottles...two atomisers...


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## Martin in Holland

To recap...I should slow down current, pump in less CO2, re fill the filters with noodles,  lower the spray bars and turn on more light.....
Somehow I feel like that's how I started, but I'm willing to give it a go. I think plants need to grow now as they are struggling.


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## pepedopolous

Hi. Good luck with everything. I really sympathize with you. 

I would just say that your light doesn't seem much for a big aquarium. I have a carpet of Micranthemum 'Monte Carlo' but it took over a month to start growing and carpeting. As a last resort I increased the light (CO2 was maxed out) and this seemed to turn things around. Later I did reduce the light again as I was getting GDA on the glass.


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## viktorlantos

Martin in China said:


> To recap...I should slow down current, pump in less CO2, re fill the filters with noodles,  lower the spray bars and turn on more light.....
> Somehow I feel like that's how I started, but I'm willing to give it a go. I think plants need to grow now as they are struggling.



Monte Carlo need a loooots of light to perform great, and this will be the same when you trim it.

You just met with some starter issue. No worry. If the flow, light, CO2, filtration would have been optimal this would look better, but still not late to turn this around.
This is the sweet part of aquascaping. - we would have been punished much better in marine


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## Martin in Holland

A small update on how it's going now....

I put more light on 2X T5 for 6,5 hours per day now, lowered the spray bars to get and aimed them a little more down, lowered the power of the filters, CO2 is still the same (a lot) just to get about 25-30 ppm and 5ml Excel every day.

most plants are doing fairly well, but Monte Carlo is still giving me a headache ....it's either brown or black from algae, not growing or getting yellow brownish leaves and not growing. It just looks like dying.


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## Martin in Holland

suggestions are still welcome


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## zanguli-ya-zamba

Hi Martin,
I wanted to say that I am totally supporting you on this fight with diatom !!!
I am living the exactly same situation than yours since a year or so. I have done 3 different scape (or more) in two different tank, and all have been ruined by brown algae.
Plants are not growing, diatom all over the tank in 2 days, I was performing huge water change 2 x a week, pumping huuuuge amount of CO2, cleaning the tank, I have been playing with flow to see if there is improvement with this or this position etc ....
I have never won the battle ... Now I am in my second aquascaping blues, I have totally neglected my tank for more than a month now, no CO2, no ferts, and the tank is a mess, GSA, BGA ... but no diatom loooool. 
I am in a deep "down mood" now... can you imagine having a NA full set up (that have cost you a lot of $$$$) and you can't perform a nice aquascape since a year  ??? 
For now I don't know what to do, leaving the tank in a messy and algae condition until passion and hope comebacks ??!!

In fact I just wanted to tell you that you are not the only one living this battle, we are two  (maybe more lol).
I am living exactly the same as you, all what your are saying I can see it in my tank !!!

cheers mate and keep us update.
I think I need to fight back also[DOUBLEPOST=1400231114][/DOUBLEPOST]Some times I want to cry about having such a nice set up and doing bullsh*t ...


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## sciencefiction

Brown diatoms in almost all cases are caused by immature filtration not capable of clearing up the ammonia on time or generally not sufficient mature filtration and/or non-mature tanks. In planted tanks, it will be more likely an issue in setups like yours where there's little plant mass and little fast growing plants to help with ammonia consumption.  It's trace levels we are talking about, not really harmful to fish or detectable but very beneficial to a happy diatom population.

Your problems maybe coming from the soil releasing ammonia/fish food/overfeeding possibly, or your filtration is not fully up to scratch yet. Someone else suggested to make sure you have biomedia in the filters, not just floss or you just don't have enough biofiltration fully functional.

I can reproduce brown diatoms by overfeeding and underfiltering in any tank.  Hence it's prominent in new start ups which are not cycled yet or in fry tanks when lot's of food/organics is involved, or very overstocked tanks that can hardly keep up.  It's nothing to do with CO2. The only thing it has to do with plant health is if your plants are melting for some other reason and contributing to the ammonia levels your bio filtration needs to handle, thus not helping. So it can be two separate issues, though plants covered in any algae can't grow well either. 

If the surface of your tank wasn't that turbulent I would have suggested to up the light and cover the surface with floaters for the time being as they will help with the ammonia. Put biomedia in the filters for bacteria to find a friendlier environment and populate more too.


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## zanguli-ya-zamba

sciencefiction said:


> Brown diatoms in almost all cases are caused by immature filtration not capable of clearing up the ammonia on time or generally not sufficient mature filtration and/or non-mature tanks. In planted tanks, it will be more likely an issue in setups like yours where there's little plant mass and little fast growing plants to help with ammonia consumption.  It's trace levels we are talking about, not really harmful to fish or detectable but very beneficial to a happy diatom population.
> 
> Your problems maybe coming from the soil releasing ammonia/fish food/overfeeding possibly, or your filtration is not fully up to scratch yet. Someone else suggested to make sure you have biomedia in the filters, not just floss or you just don't have enough biofiltration fully functional.
> 
> I can reproduce brown diatoms by overfeeding and underfiltering in any tank.  Hence it's prominent in new start ups which are not cycled yet or in fry tanks when lot's of food/organics is involved, or very overstocked tanks that can hardly keep up.  It's nothing to do with CO2. The only thing it has to do with plant health is if your plants are melting for some other reason and contributing to the ammonia levels your bio filtration needs to handle, thus not helping. So it can be two separate issues, though plants covered in any algae can't grow well either.
> 
> If the surface of your tank wasn't that turbulent I would have suggested to up the light and cover the surface with floaters for the time being as they will help with the ammonia. Put biomedia in the filters for bacteria to find a friendlier environment and populate more too.




Hi thanks for your answer,
I will put some bio media in my filter, I only have foam and floss in it. I thought that bacteria could colonized what ever media you put in. I will add some fast growing plants like hygro, swords, valisneria, etc ... 
My tank is running since 4 months now or even more ....

thanks for your help 
cheers


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## sciencefiction

Either better filtration or fast growing plants should help as long as they grow. New filter media/filter would need time to populate so plants are a better alternative as a faster solution.
I normally just add a second filter with mature media if its a non planted setup(and even in a planted setup) and that normally does the trick pretty fast.
I can't be sure which filter media has more surface for bacteria but floss for sure isn't one of them. I don't use floss at all but I use sponges along with other noodles, balls, ceramics, etc..


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## Martin in Holland

zanguli-ya-zamba said:


> Hi Martin,
> I wanted to say that I am totally supporting you on this fight with diatom !!!
> I am living the exactly same situation than yours since a year or so. I have done 3 different scape (or more) in two different tank, and all have been ruined by brown algae.
> Plants are not growing, diatom all over the tank in 2 days, I was performing huge water change 2 x a week, pumping huuuuge amount of CO2, cleaning the tank, I have been playing with flow to see if there is improvement with this or this position etc ....
> I have never won the battle ... Now I am in my second aquascaping blues, I have totally neglected my tank for more than a month now, no CO2, no ferts, and the tank is a mess, GSA, BGA ... but no diatom loooool.
> I am in a deep "down mood" now... can you imagine having a NA full set up (that have cost you a lot of $$$$) and you can't perform a nice aquascape since a year  ???
> For now I don't know what to do, leaving the tank in a messy and algae condition until passion and hope comebacks ??!!
> 
> In fact I just wanted to tell you that you are not the only one living this battle, we are two  (maybe more lol).
> I am living exactly the same as you, all what your are saying I can see it in my tank !!!
> 
> cheers mate and keep us update.
> I think I need to fight back also[DOUBLEPOST=1400231114][/DOUBLEPOST]Some times I want to cry about having such a nice set up and doing bullsh*t ...



Don't loose hope mate. I found that it a whole health thing...plants need to be healthy and they need light, CO2 and other stuff....bacteria need te be healthy and in big enough numbers....ASO
I think I am getting there but still have to overcome the algae peek, which I have seen in my small tank dissapeared after everything else was doing good.... My 300 liter tank still has 2 months to go before I am changing it, so now I test this theory


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## sciencefiction

Just out of curiosity but how often have you washed your filter media in these tanks and how do you wash it?
I mean at least Martin's tank has very little plant mass so plants alone won't cut it and I was wondering if you are overly attentive to the filter media....


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## ian_m

I agree with the "trace" ammonia thing.

After major plant fiddling, scaping, replanting, new plants I always get a slight outbreak of brown diatoms almost immediately. However after major work I now dose water with Amquel Plus water conditioner and no longer get diatom outbreaks.

 Ottos eat the diatoms, well at least mine do.

I know people who used Amquel Plus daily and put fish straight into uncycled new tank and measured zero ammonia. My mate had a filter failure and tank leak at same time, so had to buy a new tank and filter to put his fish in.


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## Martin in Holland

sciencefiction said:


> Just out of curiosity but how often have you washed your filter media in these tanks and how do you wash it?
> I mean at least Martin's tank has very little plant mass so plants alone won't cut it and I was wondering if you are overly attentive to the filter media....



you are probably right about that, I clean my filters every month with water from the tank though. I think I need to stop this and only clean if they are clocked up ...right?
I did add more (fast growing) plants, which will be more in my next scape, it seems to help


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## sciencefiction

Martin in China said:


> you are probably right about that, I clean my filters every month with water from the tank though. I think I need to stop this and only clean if they are clocked up ...right?
> I did add more (fast growing) plants, which will be more in my next scape, it seems to help



In a new tank although plenty of people will jump on me in a second, I do not touch the filter media for 6 months exactly for these reasons. You wash the filter media regularly and thouroughly in a non-planted or lightly planted new tank and you can end up with even detectable levels of ammonia in unlucky scenarios if you have a lot of stock. Diatoms follow immediately and later on if not resolved, all type of algae outbreaks. After some months the bacteria seems to establish so well that you can hardly knock it with washing, even in tap water but at the start it appears sensitive so I do not touch "new" filters. 

 If the tank is messy because of dying plants I'd put temporary cut to size sponges as prefilter and wash only them regularly. Do as much water changes as you like, remove dead leaves as you see them, dead plants, do not overfeed, do not let food and debris sit around.  

A mature tank and a stable tank free of algae is not a tank in which plants grow fast but in which the bacterial population supporting nitrification and processes inside the soil have multiplied to a healthy point and are not disturbed by wrong human interaction(algae killing chemicals are what most folks keep using not knowing it kills a ton of other micro-organisms and just make the problems worse) Obviously plants need light/co2 and nutrients to be healthy otherwise they are a contributor to the higher organics, ammonia related issues, etc..

As Ian says, even in mature tanks you can get diatoms, simply by adding too many fish at once for example. So it's certainly ammonia related, whatever the source of it. The diatoms are actually helping consuming the organics/ammonia until the bacteria and/or plants are able to support the new load. Obviously if the diatoms cover the plant leaves it's counteractive as it will block their function, so it can get worse if not fixed by other means but CO2 has nothing to do with diatoms. You get diatoms in non-planted tanks and you resolve by reducing bioload/increasing filtration and flow.

As I mentioned earlier, I almost always end up with diatoms in fry tanks, no matter how old they are. Expanding biofiltration with mature additional filter always solves it. Or once I stop overfeeding and I reduce the bioload it goes away.


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## Martin in Holland

sounds solid, but I'm sure Clive will not agree about 



sciencefiction said:


> CO2 has nothing to do with diatoms



anyway, I won't touch my filter media now for the next 5 months ( I will let them run in a bucket when I re-scape the tank)


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## sciencefiction

Martin in China said:


> sounds solid, but I'm sure Clive will not agree about
> 
> 
> 
> anyway, I won't touch my filter media now for the next 5 months ( I will let them run in a bucket when I re-scape the tank)



I am not in disagreement with Clive. I am just expanding on the issue.
In a planted tank there is a scenario in which plants are not healthy, they contribute to the bioload, then organics/ammonia levels rise. In a new non-mature tank that will lead the least to diatom issues and possibly other algae issues. Diatoms will hardly happen in a new planted tank if you start with well mature filters which have been fed ammonia of some sort prior to that enough to support the future bioload. Therefore it's the health of the plants that contributed to the algae in this scenario which is what Clive tries to say. But if it's not the plants the issue and the extra bioload comes from something else, then you can't solve the diatoms by growing healthy plants which applies specifically to scapes like yours because you hardly have fast growing plants or any other plant mass that can actually grow fast enough to outcompete the diatoms and it's contributers(ammonia/organics), hence better filtration methods helps in any case and also as a prevention.

And there's a different diatom scenario in which plants or no plants, you biofiltration can't support the current bio load(plants produce organics too even when healthy so they come with a price) which leads to trace ammonia and thus diatoms/algae.  This issue you can't solve with more CO2 or more ferts or more/less light as you may not even have plants in there or your plants have enough of that but get covered in diatoms/algae caused by other sources.  You can solve it by either reducing the fish bioload/less feeding/more water changes or/and you increase your biofiltration with healthy mature filters, or just wait the new filtration to mature which will eventually outcompete the diatoms

All these scenarios need lots of oxygen to get the tank to a healthy state so if you've got low dissolved oxygen=algae unless you do daily 80% water changes and wipe clean everything that can produce the slightest amount of ammonia. This way, it don't matter if you have much filtration/nitrification or bacterial activity so you are in control. This is kind of Clive's view on planted tanks but I am rather lazy so I have my own methods.


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## Martin in Holland

Got it....more healthy plant....better filtration (bio)....
This is what I am already aiming for now


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## sciencefiction

Filtration is your friend. It's a backup and preventative in case of bio overload such as suffering plants. Not proud of it but  I can take plenty of pictures for you of algae deficient ptanks with plants falling apart in a couple of my tanks(due to not dosing anything at all, currently iron an potassium issues) and perfectly clean of algae. Unhealthy plants are a contributor to organics, healthy plants help with organics but filtration does not care about light, co2 or nutrients, as long as it has oxygen and has sufficient flow and media, it takes care of everything. Healthy substrate helps too of course.


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## flygja

Science fiction..I for one wouldn't mind seeing those pictures. Thanks!


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## sciencefiction

flygja said:


> Science fiction..I for one wouldn't mind seeing those pictures. Thanks!



Below are close ups of one of the tanks. I hadn't been dosing anything since last year. Plants just withered and died so not much left but a couple of crypts some anubias and hydrophila are still standing and suffering severe deficiencies.
I started dosing iron last week as I was finally in the mood to get the tank back on track and the plants grew very pale all the time(if they grew at all)and some potassium this week and I'll build up from there depending how they grow:

These are pictures before I dosed:

Feeling sorry for itself anubias





Severe iron deficiency in hydrophila. Pale new growth, then older leaves wither and die.







Below what could be potassium deficiency.




On the bottom left plant you can see new growth responding to iron, slightly greener a couple of new leaves on top.l The lower leaves of the right plant showing what the plant went through while growing.




The new recovered growth more visible on this picture which is from today.




Here is the tank from today. I hadn't dosed not one bit of ferts since last year, most plants died after screaming at me for months so not much left but no algae issues either.  Tank has 4 filters(two externals, a hood filter and an internal behind the plants. I still have to drill the other side of the cabinet so one external is a sore to the eye at the front still.


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## sciencefiction

And the second series, a 54l tank.  This tank I am not even trying to fix because I am taking it apart and putting soil. It has two filters, an inernal 450l/h and a sponge filter connected to a powerhead.

Tank from today just now




Again, hydrophila on the left suffering severe iron and potassium deficiency the least(pale new growth and holes in the lower leave)





Look at the state of the dwarf hairgrass and especially the lone bacopa strand:





And for comparison, a non-deficient of anything bacopa from the same species(australis) from another tank:



[DOUBLEPOST=1400268816][/DOUBLEPOST]So to summarize without trying to be rude but where is the algae though my plants are lacking not just CO2 as you can see for yourselves.


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## flygja

Thanks. How much lighting are you running on both tanks?


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## sciencefiction

The first is running on 2xT5 HO 39W each @ 8.5 hrs. The second is on 20W LED 8hrs
And the 3rd tank on the last picture on 135W high power leds 50cm above the water surface on a 5f 50 cm tall tank. They burn my immersed plants if within 5cm of any plant.


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## flygja

Sounds like quite a lot of light, and though your plants are deficient, there isn't any algae at all. This is really something new to me.


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## sciencefiction

Yes, you can have deficient plants with no algae.   And also, when you think of it, unplanted tanks do get diatoms, BBA, green dust, green spot algae, etc...So algae has nothing to do directly with plant health but the health of the tank itself.    Healthy plants just help creating uncomfortable conditions for algae. Unhealthy plants just lead to increased organics which algae loves. But organics lovers have other enemies in the tank.
There are micro-organisms that too rely on consummation of organics to live and multiply and love stuff that plants and algae love such as nitrogen/ammonia too.
 Plants and micro-organisms are all part of the big picture so you must think of your micro-organisms the same way as you think about the health of your plants and create conditions for them to live too, starting from oxygenated tank and substrate and enough filtration/bio-media for them to hang on to and don't disturb them with "mean" methods. Just because you can't see them, it doesn't mean you can't affect their diversity and numbers, and health.
 If you think you can rely solely on plants in a planted tank,  what you are essentially doing is cutting your left hand because you use your right most of the time. But what happens when you injure your right hand?


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## Martin in Holland

The tank is looking better and better day by day. Although there are still algae, it seems to do a whole lot better now. There are still things I need to adjust (filter, Light, CO2 ....) but the future looks bright.
I just made a snapshot when the filters were turned off to capture those pearly plants.


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## sciencefiction

Looking very good Martin. Did you do any adjustments or it started disappearing itself?


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## Rob P

Looking miles better Martin!


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## Martin in Holland

sciencefiction said:


> Looking very good Martin. Did you do any adjustments or it started disappearing itself?



I actually lowered the CO2 input a bit and up the light period and gave it a sunburst moment added some plants and left everything growing as it pleased (except for that one fast grower also slowed down the outflow from the filters (as Victor suggested) and even took out the spray bars. 
It all sounds counter productive but it did it for me ....now the outflow from the filters is back to 100%...with the new installed chiller it's needed


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## Martin in Holland

Oh yeah...nearly forgot...I also added some Zeolite in one filter and one bag of Purigen in the other filter.


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## Yo-han

Looks much better!


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## dw1305

Hi all,





sciencefiction said:


> On the bottom left plant you can see new growth responding to iron, slightly greener a couple of new leaves on top


 My plants tend to look a bit like that (if I really don't feed them), with lots of different deficiencies, but not really any algae on the leaves. 

Iron could definitely be one of the deficiencies, a quick way to tell is that when you add FeEDTA, or similar you should get fairly rapid greening of all the leaves, not just the new growth. 

Potassium looks pretty likely as a deficiency, and the plants also look nitrogen deficient. Potassium nitrate (KNO3) should produce a rapid greening of the newer leaves

I'd be quite interested in what effect some magnesium would have (MgSO4.7H2O), as Mg deficiency produces similar interveinal chlorosis symptoms that are similar to Iron.  

cheers Darrel


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## sciencefiction

dw1305 said:


> I'd be quite interested in what effect some magnesium would have (MgSO4.7H2O), as Mg deficiency produces similar interveinal chlorosis symptoms that are similar to Iron.



The leaves on the hydrophila responded to iron immediately. I started dosing just iron nothing else three times weekly every second day to 0.2ppm each time and they responded straight away. On the second week I had visible healthy green growth for the first time in a while.  They stopped drooling and the stems straightened up and new growth started growing green and healthy again. So it was definitely just iron deficiency in this case.  Old growth did not recover but I think that depends on the species of plants and probably it was too far gone as I hadn't dosed anything in ages.
I think magnesium deficiency shows on old leaves first, not new ones such as in iron deficiency.


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## Martin in Holland

Another picture of the total look...it's not the best scape but more of a test scape ....
In my summer vacation this tank will get a new look.


 
But at least I learned a lot. Although I still have algae they are a whole lot less and not so disturbing anymore. I don't bother with trying to clean the stones, as they will not make a comeback in the next scape.


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## tim

Looks great Martin, good recovery.


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## Rob P

That's cool Martin, very scenic & well done for persevering with it


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## Martin in Holland

Rob P said:


> That's cool Martin, very scenic & well done for persevering with it


If you want to learn, you have stick with it....I have to say though that I came close to giving up on high tech.


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## zanguli-ya-zamba

Hi Martin,

just to let you know that I don't have any more diatom in my tank !!!!
I have add a lot of hygrophilia to up the biomass, and I turned off CO2, reduce my flow and reduce light.
After two weeks or more of this regime, no more diatoms, after I decided to turn back CO2 very low, and it seams to work fine, plants are pearling.
I have added two weeks ago some monte carlo and some staurogyne and they are doing very well, pearling and sprouting new big leaves !!!
I think that what have realy helped is the higher plant mass and maybe my filter and tank is finally mature !!!! 
I am very happy I will add some other plants this week.

cheers mate !!!


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