# Dry dosing NPK



## MichaelJ (28 Jun 2021)

Hello,
I am switching over to dry dosing NPK in my two low-tech tanks and trying to figure out what compounds to use. I am actually not going to dry dose Potassium (K) as I am using Potassium salt in my house hold water softener so my Tap / RO mix contains a lot of K already. So for Nitrate I want to avoid Potassium Nitrate KNO3 as I don't need the K (I know it probably wont hurt, I just don't see any reason to add more if I can avoid it). Alternatively I could use Calcium Nitrate, but then I add to my GH which I also do not want. However, I recently switch over to DIY for Ca/Mg (using Calcium Chloride and Magnesium Sulfate)  instead of Seachem Equilibrium.  I wonder if I could switch out the Calcium Chloride with Calcium Nitrate? I am targeting a GH of 5-6 (my softened tap is “0” GH) for my WC water. If so, I will have to figure out how much Nitrate I will end up with if I would do that.

For phosphate it seems like there are two relevent options: Monopotassium phosphate and Dipotassium phosphate. The Dipotassium is supposedly more soluble. I guess it won't matter which I choose? As far as I can tell, I wont be able to avoid the K part of the Phosphate dosing anyway.

To simplify matters further, I am going to mix it all in with my weekly WC water with some basic trace as well, and probably skip my current mid-week dosing.

Cheers,
Michael


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## X3NiTH (28 Jun 2021)

To make it easy on yourself I would skip Calcium Nitrate and use Magnesium Nitrate instead (if using Magnesium Sulphate for dosing just reduce this dose to account for the extra dose of Magnesium from the Nitrate salt), the reason being that Calcium Nitrate has a tendency to be problematical with other salts and cause the formation of precipitates if you exceed the solubility rules for calcium if you try to make a concentrate (doesn’t have to be a solution CaNO3 will react with other dry salts if placed together in a sachet for easy dosing, been there done that).

It’s ok to dose CaNO3 it just doesn’t like being in a blend.

I wouldn’t worry about the K content from either of the Phosphates, use either (whichever is cheaper or easiest to obtain), it’s not going to really contribute much more to the new background level you have via water softening, you should be able to calculate the amount of K contributed by the water softener through either direct testing for K content post softener or calculating it via the reduction in hardness by comparing source hardness to softened hardness, background levels of K are usually around 2-3mg/L so your not likely going to have outrageous levels of K post softening.


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## MichaelJ (28 Jun 2021)

X3NiTH said:


> To make it easy on yourself I would skip Calcium Nitrate and use Magnesium Nitrate instead (if using Magnesium Sulphate for dosing just reduce this dose to account for the extra dose of Magnesium from the Nitrate salt),


@X3NiTH Thanks! That's what I am going to do then.  Can you recommend a product? I did a quick search on amazon (US) and only a product that also contained magnesium oxide came up.



X3NiTH said:


> I wouldn’t worry about the K content from either of the Phosphates, use either (whichever is cheaper or easiest to obtain), it’s not going to really contribute much more to the new background level you have via water softening, you should be able to calculate the amount of K contributed by the water softener through either direct testing for K content post softener or calculating it via the reduction in hardness by comparing source hardness to softened hardness, background levels of K are usually around 2-3mg/L so your not likely going to have outrageous levels of K post softening.


In a previous discussion I calculated my potassium level in my WC water to be around 80 ppm - I am occasionally using more like 55-60% RO / 45-40% Tap so the number is probably more around 70 ppm.

Thanks for the feedback.


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## X3NiTH (28 Jun 2021)

If you are US based then a random search came up with these guys - 






						Magnesium raw salt fertilizers, Magnisal magnesium nitrate, Magriculture epsom
					

Water Soluble raw mineral salt fertilizers that provide magnesium. Magnific magnesium nitrate, Giles Magriculture magnesium sulfate, epsom salt, MagPhos, Diamond K brand KMS, potassium magnessium sulfate, MgNO3, MgSO4, KMS, Sul-po-mag Full selection of water soluble fertilizers for fertigation...



					customhydronutrients.com
				




70+ppm of K shouldn’t be a problem, in the past I’ve run over 100ppm long term without issue.


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## MichaelJ (28 Jun 2021)

X3NiTH said:


> If you are US based then a random search came up with these guys -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Perfect! Thank you!



X3NiTH said:


> 70+ppm of K shouldn’t be a problem, in the past I’ve run over 100ppm long term without issue.


No, in isolation, I am not worried about the K levels at all - and haven't had any issues at all since switching over to Potassium salts in my water softener.   I just want to keep my overall TDS in check for the sake of my recently introduced shrimps  and I still suffer from a bit of _TDS fixation_ from running my tanks (unknowingly) at astronomical TDS values. 

Cheers,
Michael


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## ceg4048 (29 Jun 2021)

I agree with X3NiTH. There is absolutely no mileage in worrying about using potassium salts for your nutrients. Any nutrients you dump into the tank when dosing EI will automatically raise the TDS, significantly. TDS as a number in isolation is not necessarily bad. What matters is the components that cause the TDS. The portion of the TDS due to water pollution is bad, but the portion due to nutrients is not bad. If you dose EI you should always do a large water change to reduce the pollution component of TDS. Heavily fed plants will produce lots of pollution and you will see the rapid TDS rise during the week specifically due to the organic waste being expelled by the plants.

You can easily determine what portion of the TDS is due to pollution. Measure TDS immediately after a massive water change. Then dose and take a TDS reading. This difference indicates the amount due to nutrients. You can then work out over the course of the week how much is due to nutrient dosing and how much is due to pollution.

One can always lower the dosing amounts as well. EI supply's more than enough nutrition so as long as the lighting load allows it's feasible to lower the dosing amounts.

Cheers,


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## MichaelJ (29 Jun 2021)

Thanks, so I am getting this then: Magnesium nitrate and this: Monopotassium Phosphate. I am also looking at the trace mixes... I wonder if this trace element mix would work? It's so cheap compared to the "aquatic" formula's sold in cute bottles (mostly containing water.).

I guess I owe you guys a beer or something for all the money I will be saving 

Cheers,
Michael


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## X3NiTH (29 Jun 2021)

That chelated trace mix looks ok!


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## MichaelJ (7 Jul 2021)

X3NiTH said:


> That chelated trace mix looks ok!


@X3NiTH  Just received the compounds mentioned above. Dosing the Magnesium Nitrate and Mono potassium Phosphate is pretty straight forward, but the question is how much I should dose the trace element mix to get a comparable amount to my current dosing of Tropica Premier (26 ml after weekly WC and 16-20 ml mid week) ?  I suppose it would be way, way less!  I never found a good reference to a "guaranteed analysis" of Tropica Premier or Tropica Specialized.

Also, I noticed that the mix is not containing Sulfur. Is that something I should be adding in addition? or is the background of my Tap/RO mix as I use Epsom Salt to raise GH to 5-6 (I will lower Magnesium Sulfate dose and add Magnesium Nitrate instead) enough?

Cheers,
Michael


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## Wookii (7 Jul 2021)

@MichaelJ the IFC Calculator is a great tool for working our dosing quantities: IFC Aquarium Fertilizer Calculator

If your trace/micro mixture is anything like the APFUK version, I would imagine it could be almost impossible to dose dry. If following an EI regime, you would be dosing around 0.12grams per 50 litres 3x per week. Making a liquid solution with a dosing bottle would be much easier.


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## Zeus. (7 Jul 2021)

TPN gives [trace]at recommend dose




your CustomHydro trace @ 0.6grams per 100Litres yeilds ( edit as posted incorrect values 18/2/2021)



and for comparison with TNC trace and APFUK trace at same 0.6grams per 100L


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## MichaelJ (7 Jul 2021)

Zeus. said:


> your CustomHydro trace @ 0.6grams per 100Litres yeilds
> View attachment 171607


Hi @Zeuss Thanks a bunch for doing this!  I think perhaps around 0.5g twice a week should be fine for my 151 Liter (40 US Gallon) heavily planted tanks.  I will be a little low on Molybdenum though and a bit high on Copper contents, but I think my Shrimps should be ok with this. (I believe 1ppm of Cu is when it becomes a problem for dwarf shrimps).



Wookii said:


> @MichaelJ the IFC Calculator is a great tool for working our dosing quantities: IFC Aquarium Fertilizer Calculator


Hi @Wookii Unfortunately I don't have MS Excel and the IFC Aquarium Fertilizer Calculator won't work with the Numbers App on my Mac.


Wookii said:


> If your trace/micro mixture is anything like the APFUK version, I would imagine it could be almost impossible to dose dry. If following an EI regime, you would be dosing around 0.12grams per 50 litres 3x per week. Making a liquid solution with a dosing bottle would be much easier.


The Trace mix is already in liquid form fortunately, but to your point I will have to dilute it a lot anyway, like 32:1 to make it manageable for dosing. I suppose regular tap water will do as a mixer? I will use an empty Tropica 2ml/pump dispenser  (1/32 mix) so that 8 pumps will give me the 0.5g per dosing (8 pumps x 2 ml * 1/32 x 1g) = 0.5g.


Cheers,
Michael


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## Wookii (7 Jul 2021)

MichaelJ said:


> The Trace mix is already in liquid form fortunately, but to your point I will have to dilute to a lot anyway, like 32:1 to make it manageable for dosing. I suppose regular tap water will do as a mixer? I will use an empty Tropica 2ml/pump dispenser  (1/32 mix) so that 8 pumps will give me the 0.5g per dosing (8 pumps x 2 ml * 1/32 x 1g) = 0.5g.
> 
> Cheers,
> Michael



Oh ok - I would use DI or RO water to ensure you don't get any reactions with anything in your tap water. You may also need to add some Potassium Sorbate to prevent any mould build up (depending on mow much you intend to mix up at once, and something to maintain the acidity of the mix to such as Ascorbic acid or vinegar.


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## MichaelJ (7 Jul 2021)

Wookii said:


> Oh ok - I would use DI or RO water to ensure you don't get any reactions with anything in your tap water. You may also need to add some Potassium Sorbate to prevent any mould build up (depending on mow much you intend to mix up at once, and something to maintain the acidity of the mix to such as Ascorbic acid or vinegar.


@Wookii  Ok, Thanks. I'll use RO water then. I will use an old Tropica 300 ml bottle, so a bottle would last 4.5 weeks, but I plan to make it part of the routine to mix a new every 4 weeks and just dump whatever is left.  How much white vinegar should I add then?


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## Wookii (7 Jul 2021)

MichaelJ said:


> @Wookii  Ok, Thanks. I'll use RO water then. I will use an old Tropica 300 ml bottle, so a bottle would last 4.5 weeks, but I plan to make it part of the routine to mix a new every 4 weeks and just dump whatever is left.  How much white vinegar should I add then?



Not sure on the vinegar, I use Ascorbic acid (vitamin C), but there is a thread here where @Happi adds 10ml per 400ml water to his custom micro mix:






						PPS PRO based custom Micro Recipe
					

Greeting UKAPs Members, I started my journey about making custom Fertilizer back in 2014, I was mostly Active on the other forums. I live in the USA but I thought i started sharing my knowledge with the other members from the other countries as well. hopefully the UKPS member will enjoy my...



					www.ukaps.org


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## MichaelJ (7 Jul 2021)

Wookii said:


> Not sure on the vinegar, I use Ascorbic acid (vitamin C), but there is a thread here where @Happi adds 10ml per 400ml water to his custom micro mix:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sounds good. Thanks!  Given the short lifespan of a 300 ml bottle (4 weeks) I should be good with a similar amount (10ml) of vinegar.


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## Wookii (8 Jul 2021)

MichaelJ said:


> Sounds good. Thanks!  Given the short lifespan of a 300 ml bottle (4 weeks) I should be good with a similar amount (10ml) of vinegar.



The vinegar is just to acidify the mix to prevent the pH going too high and breaking the chelation of the micros. The Potassium Sorbate is for the longer term storage to prevent mould etc.


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## MichaelJ (8 Jul 2021)

Wookii said:


> The vinegar is just to acidify the mix to prevent the pH going too high and breaking the chelation of the micros. The Potassium Sorbate is for the longer term storage to prevent mould etc.


@Wookii  Thanks. Good to know. I will add 0.5g of Potassium Sorbate as well similar to what @Happi suggest for his custom mix.


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## Happi (9 Jul 2021)

If you are making a solution that is going to last for month or two, you can reduce the potassium sorbate to lower amount such as 0.25 gram per 500 ml solution.


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## MichaelJ (9 Jul 2021)

Happi said:


> If you are making a solution that is going to last for month or two, you can reduce the potassium sorbate to lower amount such as 0.25 gram per 500 ml solution.


@Happi Thank you for the clarification!


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## X3NiTH (10 Jul 2021)

Looks like your on track now, no need to add any more sulphur compounds as the Epsom salts you are using for remineralisation delivers plenty.


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## MichaelJ (11 Jul 2021)

X3NiTH said:


> Looks like your on track now, no need to add any more sulphur compounds as the Epsom salts you are using for remineralisation delivers plenty.


Thanks! I am only waiting for the Potassium Sorbate to arrive (hopefully tomorrow), then I will make my first batch. I'll be all "DIY" on ferts and water prep then - except for the tiny bit of Prime I add to my Tap/RO water mix.

Cheers,
Michael


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## MichaelJ (15 Jul 2021)

Hi All, I finally got around to mixing this:

10 ml disitlled white vinegar
0.3g Potassium Sorbate
20 ml of the trace element mix
270 ml of distilled water (I bought a US gallon at the grocery store - was 89 cents).

I made 2 bottles so far.

I bought 300 ml dispensers on Amazon that dispenses around 0.625 ml per pump (I verified by averaging 3 times 50 ml - and it came out as 80 pumps per 50 ml ) - so with 12 pumps I should get (12 pumps x 0.625 ml x 20/300 ml) = 0.5g of the trace mix. (my two low-tech tanks are 150 Liter densely planted )
I will dose this twice a week - once right after the weekly WC and then mid-week - I could probably do half the dose mid-week, but it probably wont matter either way... it is trace after all.

My only question is - out of curiosity - why is the color like this ? I suppose it's one of the elements or compounds of the trace mix, I just don't know which...  its like a very dark red ( not to sound macabre, but its almost like blood!) - is that due to the chelated iron perhaps?








I am very excited about finally making my own trace fertilizer (well, not quite my own, but close enough for me   ). Thanks for all the help and insights!

Cheers,
Michael


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## X3NiTH (15 Jul 2021)

Iron EDTA usually isn’t this red in colour but Iron EDDHA is so it may be present in the blend even though only Iron EDTA is noted in the analysis (unless they have stated the wrong chelate). If your water goes pink tinged when this is dosed you can be pretty sure it’s Fe EDDHA, it’s not a problem for nutrition (it’s a strong chelate good up to pH9) but can be for aesthetics if you don’t like the pink tint, the reduction in tint though over time can give an indication as to the availability of Iron remaining in the water.


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## MichaelJ (15 Jul 2021)

X3NiTH said:


> Iron EDTA usually isn’t this red in colour but Iron EDDHA is so it may be present in the blend even though only Iron EDTA is noted in the analysis (unless they have stated the wrong chelate). If your water goes pink tinged when this is dosed you can be pretty sure it’s Fe EDDHA, it’s not a problem for nutrition (it’s a strong chelate good up to pH9) but can be for aesthetics if you don’t like the pink tint, the reduction in tint though over time can give an indication as to the availability of Iron remaining in the water.


Hi @X3NiTH , Thanks for the reply. Yes, I dosed it yesterday in one tank per my prescription above. During the dosing it did turn slightly red/pink for a brief moment in the areas where I dosed, but it quickly went away when the fertilizer got thoroughly mixed up in the tank water. I will keep an eye out for this.

EDIT: I wrote the company to ask for further details.

Cheers,
Michael


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## MichaelJ (15 Jul 2021)

Back to the NPK part, I am trying to figure out how much Phosphate (ppm) I get from this in 50 Liters of water if dosing 1g ?  My math says ~40 ppm ? does that make sense?   

Cheers,
Michael


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## Zeus. (15 Jul 2021)

MichaelJ said:


> Back to the NPK part, I am trying to figure out how much Phosphate (ppm) I get from this in 50 Liters of water if dosing 1g ?  My math says ~40 ppm ? does that make sense?
> 
> Cheers,
> Michael





Ignore the solubility as dry dosing


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## MichaelJ (15 Jul 2021)

Zeus. said:


> View attachment 171900
> Ignore the solubility as dry dosing


So 1g dissolved in 50 L yields 13.96 ppm of PO4.
Thanks @Zeus for running the numbers through the DYI Calculator - I need to get Excel so I don't have to rely on you and others to do my homework


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## Zeus. (15 Jul 2021)

You can always use Rotala


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## MichaelJ (15 Jul 2021)

Zeus. said:


> You can always use Rotala


Awesome! Didn't even realize I could just put that in there by selecting DIY.


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## MichaelJ (16 Jul 2021)

Ok, so this is going to be my NPK and remineralization dosing for my weekly 40-50% WC RO/Tap mix.  (Note that my tap-water is softened with potassium salt and GH comes out at "0" and my RO/Tap mix yields around 2-3 KH).

*Mg(NO3)2.6H2O (1.315g per 50L)*

*Element**ppm/degree*Mg2.49NO312.73N2.88dGH0.58

*MgSO4.7H2O (2.631g per 50L)*

*Element**ppm/degree*Mg5.19S6.85dGH1.2

*CaCl2.2H2O (4.6g per 50L)*

*Element**ppm/degree*Ca25.11Cl44.42dGH3.56

*KH2PO4 (1.315g per 50L)*

*Element**ppm/degree*PO418.37P5.99K7.56

(I am prepping in 5 US Gallon buckets, hence the weird grams per 50L... for my 5 gallon buckets its more manageable weights for my mg scale: 0.5g Mg(NO3)2.6H2O, 1.0g MgSO4.7H2O,  1.75g CaCl2.2H2O and  0.5g KH2PO4).

I am dialing down my NO3 and PO4 dosing a bit as an experiment (currently my tanks NO3 is about 40ppm and PO4 estimated 30-40ppm - hard to measure), so with my small mid-week NO3/PO4 dosing I should end up around 20ppm for NO3 and 30ppm for PO4. K is going to be sky high due to my Potassium salt softened water, but that should be fine - as its been for the past 5 months now.

Let me know If anything looks strange 

Again, thanks to all for the help.

Cheers,
Michael


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## Wookii (16 Jul 2021)

Erm, PO4 target for EI is around 2-3ppm?


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## MichaelJ (16 Jul 2021)

Wookii said:


> Erm, PO4 target for EI is around 2-3ppm?


@Wookii Yes, sure it is - and I will probably be fine reducing the KH2PO4 dosing by 1/10th... However, I have been running my tanks at elevated NPK levels for a long time now and have yet to see an inkling of drawbacks from this approach other than wasting money on expensive commercial aquatic fertilizers... at least until now.  In the past, I have been using super elevated PO4 levels to completely get rid of GSA and hair algae outbreaks. And low levels of NO3 seems to encourage BGA and possibly BBA... It appears to be a controversial topic for sure - I am not knowledgeable enough about algae organisms (or plants for that matter...) to explain how or why this thermonuclear approach to NPK dosing works for me, except for my personal experience.

Cheers,
Michael


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## Zeus. (16 Jul 2021)

Like @Wookii said PO4 a little high, plus K is a little low IMO


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## MichaelJ (16 Jul 2021)

Zeus. said:


> View attachment 171959
> Like @Wookii said PO4 a little high, plus K is a little low IMO
> View attachment 171960



@Zeus.   Thanks for the chart!  The K of my Potassium Chloride softened tap-water is probably somewhere around 160 ppm, so after being diluted with the RO water (65% RO / 35% TAP) it's around 60 ppm - that's high.

My two tanks are densely planted and somewhat lightly stocked, but of course, I have to consider how much PO4/NO3 I get from fish/plant waste breakdown, the tap water etc. and what the uptake is... I do not know, but I suppose thats the whole point with EI - to making sure nutritions are plentiful.

Cheers,
Michael


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## Wookii (16 Jul 2021)

MichaelJ said:


> @Wookii Yes, sure it is - and I will probably be fine reducing the KH2PO4 dosing by 1/10th... However, I have been running my tanks at elevated NPK levels for a long time now and have yet to see an inkling of drawbacks from this approach other than wasting money on expensive commercial aquatic fertilizers... at least until now.  In the past, I have been using super elevated PO4 levels to completely get rid of GSA and hair algae outbreaks. And low levels of NO3 seems to encourage BGA and possibly BBA... It appears to be a controversial topic for sure - I am not knowledgeable enough about algae organisms (or plants for that matter...) to explain how or why this thermonuclear approach to NPK dosing works for me, except for my personal experience.
> 
> Cheers,
> Michael



That’s fine, if it’s intentional, test away by all means - I only highlighted it as it looked like a decimal point error initially 👍🏻


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## Zeus. (16 Jul 2021)

MichaelJ said:


> @Zeus.   Thanks for the chart!  The K of my Potassium Chloride softened tap-water is probably somewhere around 160 ppm, so after being diluted with the RO water (65% RO / 35% TAP) it's around 60 ppm - that's high.
> 
> My two tanks are densely planted and somewhat lightly stocked, but of course, I have to consider how much PO4/NO3 I get from fish/plant waste breakdown, the tap water etc. and what the uptake is... I do not know, but I suppose thats the whole point with EI - to making sure nutritions are plentiful.
> 
> ...


All that matters is are the livestock/plants heathy. Yes you are correct EI is about having nutrients in abundance and regular water changes plus no testing of parameters. With experience all the calculations are not needed which is why @ceg4048 hates them so much as see them as a waste of time and effort. With time I do find myself agreeing with him on that point and have become a little more slapdash with my weighing of salts. Did enjoy doing the fert calculator all the same, still have plans to develop it some more as I do find it helpful myself being able to compare commercial ferts and clone them as well.


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## MichaelJ (16 Jul 2021)

Wookii said:


> That’s fine, if it’s intentional, test away by all means - I only highlighted it as it looked like a decimal point error initially 👍🏻



Hi @Wookii , Thanks for checking and the feedback - always appreciated!   

btw. I just prepped 3 5 US Gallon buckets and the ppm's totally adds up within about 10 ppm among the 3 buckets, so I think I got the dosing right  

Cheers,
Michael


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## MichaelJ (16 Jul 2021)

Zeus. said:


> All that matters is are the livestock/plants heathy.


Very true.



Zeus. said:


> Yes you are correct EI is about having nutrients in abundance and regular water changes plus no testing of parameters. With experience all the calculations are not needed which is why @ceg4048 hates them so much as see them as a waste of time and effort. With time I do find myself agreeing with him on that point and have become a little more slapdash with my weighing of salts.


Well, mixing ferts like this myself is all new to me... when I get the sense of what amount to a gram of this and half a gram of that etc. I will be way more cavalier with my dosing and measuring as well I am sure... I just need to get the practice.   I'll bet @ceg4048 can probably dry dose ferts from unlabelled containers in his sleep and still get it right anyway 


Zeus. said:


> Did enjoy doing the fert calculator all the same, still have plans to develop it some more as I do find it helpful myself being able to compare commercial ferts and clone them as well.


Yes, that fert calculator is very nice (have you ever considered re-writing it in JavaScript so it can run in a browser?).

Anyway, I have found this simple step very enjoyful - would not have happened without the help from the people on this forum - and I will save some real money as well. Yay!

Cheers,
Michael


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## ceg4048 (17 Jul 2021)

Zeus. said:


> All that matters is are the livestock/plants heathy. Yes you are correct EI is about having nutrients in abundance and regular water changes plus no testing of parameters. With experience all the calculations are not needed which is why @ceg4048 hates them so much as see them as a waste of time and effort. With time I do find myself agreeing with him on that point and have become a little more slapdash with my weighing of salts. Did enjoy doing the fert calculator all the same, still have plans to develop it some more as I do find it helpful myself being able to compare commercial ferts and clone them as well.


Hi Karl,
           Yeah, glad you're finally getting around to realizing that all these tedious calculations don't really get you any farther than just being sloppy. I mean, that's what the guy who invented EI was trying to tell people all along. Certainly, you and others such as X3nith deserve massive props for the effort in processing all that data, and for sure many folks will find it useful. I know that many people have trouble getting their heads wrapped around it - but that's because deep down, in their "world view" they see "medicine" when they see nutrients, whereas I see....food. To me, organizing fertilizer dosing methods around spreadsheets is like weighing your hamburger or fish&chips and recording the data every time you have lunch. Who cares if you eat 50 grams of protein versus 75 grams? Does anyone measure the amount of milk in their tea or the number of grams of table salt thrown over their veggies? The basic calculations have already been done years ago. Everything that follows is a simple ratio based on the reference 20G tank. What I especially dislike is that it hypnotizes people to think in terms of target numbers. Entire religions are spawned around these numbers, just like in the religion of test kits.


MichaelJ said:


> Well, mixing ferts like this myself is all new to me... when I get the sense of what amount to a gram of this and half a gram of that etc. I will be way more cavalier with my dosing and measuring as well I am sure... I just need to get the practice. I'll bet @ceg4048 can probably dry dose ferts from unlabelled containers in his sleep and still get it right anyway


Well, I never prepare the nutrient solutions. Once your tank size exceeds 50 gallons or so it's just inefficient, so it's easier to use a teaspoon and throw each powder directly in the tank. Before these products became widely available I'd have to get 25 kilo bags of this stuff, buying at the same suppliers that the farmers get their goods... I know what each looks and smells like and I know more or less how many teaspoons of each are dumped into the tank.  It becomes second nature because you're doing it three or five times a week. I never worry about overdoing the dosing - only worry about under dosing, but the plants will tell you if you get it wrong.

Cheers,


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## MichaelJ (17 Jul 2021)

ceg4048 said:


> What I especially dislike is that it hypnotizes people to think in terms of target numbers. Entire religions are spawned around these numbers, just like in the religion of test kits.



Hi @ceg4048  Yes, but If you're a person, such as myself, with only rudimentary knowledge of chemistry and/or biology, I think its perfectly understandable why people get drawn in on "target numbers" and test kits. Unfortunately, there is an abundance of misinformation out there. For instance, such as that high levels of Nitrate or Phosphate causing algae. Take this quote from a very popular PO4 Test Kit, for instance:
_"Ideally, the phosphate level should be zero in saltwater aquariums and freshwater aquariums or ponds, including those containing live plants."_
... and of course if you do have above-zero phosphate levels they will sell you "remedies" to lower your levels...
If not for my personal experience of helping eradicating algae with very high levels of NPK  (granted, in combination with other measures..), I probably would still believe in it, regardless of conflicting anecdotal evidence. With respect to livestock, I am still holding on to certain philosophies (or beliefs, if you will) such as trying to emulate the fish natural habitats with respect to water softness, temperature and to some degree PH, but I am only taking it as far as having those parameters in the ballpark and being much more pragmatic about it than in the past. Since I know approximately what I am putting into the tanks, the only thing I measure on a regular basis now (pre- and post WC) is the TDS (and temperature), but occasionally, I do the test kits as well. 

Cheers,
Michael


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## ceg4048 (18 Jul 2021)

MichaelJ said:


> Yes, but If you're a person, such as myself, with only rudimentary knowledge of chemistry and/or biology, I think its perfectly understandable why people get drawn in on "target numbers" and test kits. Unfortunately, there is an abundance of misinformation out there. For instance, such as that high levels of Nitrate or Phosphate causing algae. Take this quote from a very popular PO4 Test Kit, for instance:
> _"Ideally, the phosphate level should be zero in saltwater aquariums and freshwater aquariums or ponds, including those containing live plants."_
> ... and of course if you do have above-zero phosphate levels they will sell you "remedies" to lower your levels...


Yeah mate, I completely agree, and having target numbers is OK as we need some frame of reference. Nothing wrong with that, but folks become obsessed with the targets and that's where the wheels fall off the wagon.


MichaelJ said:


> If not for my personal experience of helping eradicating algae with very high levels of NPK (granted, in combination with other measures..), I probably would still believe in it, regardless of conflicting anecdotal evidence.


Exactly, and that is part of the problem we face here. Few are willing to take that leap of faith.

"...No one can be _told _what The Matrix is...You have to see it for yourself..."

Cheers,


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## Zeus. (18 Jul 2021)

MichaelJ said:


> have you ever considered re-writing it in JavaScript so it can run in a browser?



Me and @Hanuman did talk about it once and bearing in mind we both wanted to do the calculator so 'we' could have a better way of calculating our ferts, which showed all the info on one page being able to clone/compare and do custom DIY trace mixes with serial dilutions and remineralising salts also. So thats a lot of info on one page. When I started doing the program Excel seemed the obvious choice, although I've never been trained to use it just picked up whats needed on a _ad hoc_ basis. Hani cam to the rescue when he cracked the hidden/unknown test which I had set - he smashed it and offered his help, which I took up without hesitation, I class Hani as a 'guru' at Excel , but he says he's not compared to others. Excel needs no internet to run and does the job and it saves everything to do, one of the PITAs with Rotala was having to add your data each time which can lead to errors. So having a stand alone Excel spreadsheet makes a lot of sense and 'most' folk have excel. The thought of doing it in 'Java' or other software I personally dismiss straight away as I never used Java and the calculator does everything I need. We did discuss doing a mobile/lite version but why dilute your best effort.

If someone comes along cracks the 'test' and offers to do a Java version - well that's another story


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## MichaelJ (21 Jul 2021)

Zeus. said:


> If someone comes along cracks the 'test' and offers to do a Java version - well that's another story


Hi @Zeus ... And what 'test' might that be? ... it better be challenging 



ceg4048 said:


> Exactly, and that is part of the problem we face here. Few are willing to take that leap of faith.



Hi @ceg4048 , In my head I can hear you say: 

"...I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it..."

Cheers,
Michael


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## Zeus. (21 Jul 2021)

MichaelJ said:


> Hi @Zeus ... And what 'test' might that be? ... it better be challenging


If you need to ask for the test you fail, for the person with the right skillset it isn't hard.


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## Happi (21 Jul 2021)

Chelated Micronutrient Mix, one pound container - $20.42
					

Chelated micronutrient fertilizer for use in hydroponics, fertigation and foliar spray solutions. Completely soluble in water and chelated for protection from incompatibility and better bio-availability.



					customhydronutrients.com
				




Did you buy this one? @MichaelJ


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## MichaelJ (21 Jul 2021)

Happi said:


> Chelated Micronutrient Mix, one pound container - $20.42
> 
> 
> Chelated micronutrient fertilizer for use in hydroponics, fertigation and foliar spray solutions. Completely soluble in water and chelated for protection from incompatibility and better bio-availability.
> ...



@Happi , No, I got this one: Chelated, Liquid, Soluble Trace Element Mix


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## MichaelJ (22 Jul 2021)

Zeus. said:


> If you need to ask for the test you fail, for the person with the right skillset it isn't hard.


Hi @Zeus, I knew there was a Harry Potter reference in there...     Anyway, If you ever need help with a JS implementation I might be helpful for fun and leisure  ... In the daytime I am mostly a C++ and low-level GPU (AI), math (PDE) kind of guy though, and my biology and chemistry knowledge is fairly limited, but I do enjoy the hobby a lot  
Cheers,
Michael


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## Happi (22 Jul 2021)

@MichaelJ

here is the Product sheet for the fertilizer that you are currently using. that color you are seeing could be a dye, they usually add these in their fertilizers. blue, green, brown are quite common color they use.

Product Sheet:


			https://icl-sf.com/uploads/USA/Product%20Sheets/OH/Peters/g99068_liquid_stem_product_sheet.pdf
		


Full detail about the product:








						Peters Professional STEM Liquid | ICL Specialty Fertilizers
					

<a href="http://cms.icl-sf.com/uploads/USA/Product%20Sheets/OH/Peters/H7040%20G99068%20Peters%20Professional%20%20%28022817%29.pdf" target="_blank">Click for Product Sheet The industry's standard micronutrient supplement for the last 50 years, now in a convenient, ready-to-mix liquid...



					icl-sf.com
				





Here is the quick comparison if you were to dose 0.56 ppm Fe vs 0.1 ppm Fe

Fe        0.56       vs        0.1
Mn       0.15       vs      0.0267
B          0.016      vs     0.00285
Zn        0.07        vs     0.0125
Cu        0.015      vs     0.00267
Mo       0.002      vs     0.000357


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## MichaelJ (22 Jul 2021)

Happi said:


> @MichaelJ
> 
> here is the Product sheet for the fertilizer that you are currently using. that color you are seeing could be a dye, they usually add these in their fertilizers. blue, green, brown are quite common color they use.



@Happi, Thanks for the info.  Yeah, it could be. I've used it in both my tanks for a couple of times now and I haven't noticed the water taking on color from this, so thats good.



Happi said:


> Product Sheet:
> 
> 
> https://icl-sf.com/uploads/USA/Product%20Sheets/OH/Peters/g99068_liquid_stem_product_sheet.pdf



 Thanks for the info!



Happi said:


> Full detail about the product:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Are you suggesting that I up my dose?  I am currently dosing 0.5g of this compound per 150L twice a week - based on @Zeus  calculations above for this CustomHydro product (0.6g per 100 L) that should amount to Fe 0.15 ppm per dose or Fe 0.3 ppm. per week.

EDIT: I used to dose Tropica Premium (20-26 ML twice a week) which according to the dosing calculator gave me  ~0.24 ppm. Fe weekly.



Cheers,
Michael


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## Happi (22 Jul 2021)

in case if anyone is Interested






						Chelated Micronutrient Mix, 4.4 pound pail - $56.98
					

4.4 pound pail | Chelated Micronutrient Mix A water soluble micronutrient mix which can be used as supplement where deficiencies exist for crops grown in artificial and soilless media including hydroponics.



					customhydronutrients.com
				




Fe    0.1

Mn    0.02857

Zn    0.00571

Cu      0.001428

B        0.0185

Mo    0.00085

if you want to experiment further in the future, try this product and get additional Zn EDTA and Nickel with it.


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## Happi (22 Jul 2021)

MichaelJ said:


> @Happi, Thanks for the info.  Yeah, it could be. I've used it in both my tanks for a couple of times now and I haven't noticed the water taking on color from this, so thats good.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



oh no, those numbers were just for comparison. you can use whatever suggestion was already given to you by other members. if it was me suggesting those numbers, it would be somewhere around 0.1 - 0.2 ppm Fe weekly  depending on the other parameters.


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## MichaelJ (22 Jul 2021)

Happi said:


> in case if anyone is Interested
> 
> 
> 
> ...


@Happi, Thanks I will keep that in mind.


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## MichaelJ (18 Aug 2021)

Zeus. said:


> your CustomHydro trace @ 0.6grams per 100Litres yeilds


@Zeus. I was just re-visiting this thread as I was wondering about my Fe dosing which I might want to tweak a bit upwards. I was wondering if you might have gotten the the Cu content wrong when you ran the CustomHydro Trace mix for me? Looks really high.

EDIT: Ok, I think the correct value for Cu at 0.6g/100L should have been 0.00750 ppm... everything else checks out.

Cheers,
Michael


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## Zeus. (18 Aug 2021)

MichaelJ said:


> @Zeus. I was just re-visiting this thread as I was wondering about my Fe dosing which I might want to tweak a bit upwards. I was wondering if you might have gotten the the Cu content wrong when you ran the CustomHydro Trace mix for me? Looks really high.
> 
> EDIT: Ok, I think the correct value for Cu at 0.6g/100L should have been 0.00750 ppm... everything else checks out.
> 
> ...









So yes I did  sorry about that which is why we don't release updates until @Hanuman has check my work.
the correct ppms for 0.6gram per 100litres



Have also correct earlier post.

@MichaelJ many thanks for asking - we all make errors from time to time - Sorry 💩


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## MichaelJ (18 Aug 2021)

Zeus. said:


> View attachment 173273
> View attachment 173274
> 
> So yes I did  sorry about that which is why we don't release updates until @Hanuman has check my work.
> ...


Hi @Zeus. Thanks a big bunch for double checking this... and no worries about any errors! ... my plants do not look disappointed at all    I was deliberately holding back a bit on dosing this (currently doing 0.5g/151L twice per week) as I was worried that the Cu content could be an issue for my shrimps (which are now breeding as well..), but then I worried that I might be starving my plants on especially Fe... However plants are all doing fine after using this for well over a month now ...  In any event, so I believe I can safely up the dose a bit... I think I am going to target 0.5 ppm Fe / weekly instead of the current 0.3 ppm. as some of my plants are getting really huge (especially the Echinodorus) with no leaves struggling apparently.

Anyway, thanks again!

Cheers,
Michael


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