# BGA and KNO3 dosing



## Anonymous (7 Nov 2010)

Hi all,
Thought I might share with you my recent observations about BGA and KNO3 dosing. 
Ive always dosed kno3 fairly high, probably higher than some would agree with. Approx 50ppm. I use James's calculator to rougly work out the dosage and added my mix 3 times a week. However I have always got a small bite of BGA on the substrate surface which I had to hoover out fairly regularly to keep in check.
Now BGA is related to Poor nitrate levels, yes? I'm thinking how could I be getting BGA? I keep my tank clean, the filter is way too big, flow is excellent,(in my oppinion). Co2 Is also pretty good with the Up atomizer in a small tank. Livestock levels are low though. And Lighting is low. I use High tech low light method.
Anyway, I upped the dosage by sticking with the same amounts added but with more kno3. That gives about 70ppm. Way too much right? Problem persisted, didnt think too much more about it. Finally got fed up with it and decided to dump the entire weeks supply in right after the water change, (I might have been drunk at the time.) then added some more midway through the week. That was the last time I had BGA problems, it disappeared that week without me having to remove it, it has not come back. I also had Co2 bubbles collecting on the surface, that stopped too. That was a month ago. Now I add 2 doses after the water change then one mid week. Totals about 80 ppm. No problems with shrimp or fish, but I dont keep sensitive varieties.
I'm not suggesting, that everyone try this, I'm simply making the point that my own dogmatic approach to dosing ferts probably led to this problem in the first place, I'm adding the ferts but I was not believing the evidence that was in front of my own eyes!
By the way, I'm not doubting the calculator, So dont flame me for that.


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## ceg4048 (7 Nov 2010)

It's always better to state the tank size and the amount that you dosed. The calculator works fine but sometimes we have finger trouble. One ought not to need those dosing levels to avoid BGA, especially under low light. Then again did you really have low light? More questions than answers, really....

Cheers,


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## Anonymous (7 Nov 2010)

I think that 11 watts suspended about a foot or so above a 500mm by 300mm tank is fairly low. With filter rated at 900 l/h through a spraybar. I think it would be better if I had said, I dosed some kno3 that I thought was more than adequate but found it less so. The actuall ppm's dont really matter? Maybe I got the figures wrong maybe I used the calculator wrong. Point is, I stuck with the problem for ages thinking I had enough, when the facts were telling me otherwise. Either way, I was the fool!
However, I think you may have misunderstood me, I wasnt looking for answers. I already know the answer. I was merely stating my own observations. 
cheers


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## ceg4048 (8 Nov 2010)

The calculated ppm does matter. It matters because if you misused the calculator then your conclusions are erroneous. I understood perfectly what you are saying but what I'm saying is that the amount you state was necessary to solve your BGA is atypical. If you did miscalculate, then then conclusion that you need 70ppm or higher to eradicate BGA would be a mis-statement of the facts. That's the sort of out-of-context conclusion people tend to jump to, know what I mean?

So there are two parts to this story; the first is that you understood the correct path to take and was not derailed by the apparently high values. People chicken out all the time instead of following the path, as you have done, so this is the good news. I don't see that as being foolish at all. Just the opposite. Understanding the fundamental nature of our mistakes is one way in which we avoid repeating them or making similar mistakes.

The second part is that the numbers you are reporting are way over the top so there should be an investigation as to why the number was so high. It may easily turn out for example, that you thought you added 70 ppm when you might actually have been way below the required amount. The calculator is not magic. It uses simple stoichiometry to determine concentration levels, so it's relatively easy to double check.

I cannot calculate volume based on the square footage provided, and in any case the PAR values are the only energy measurements that would matter. So there is much more to learn here if one wishes to be surgical about it. That's the point I'm trying to make. Following the path notwithstanding, I'm driven to understand why the level necessary was so high. That's the only mystery, and plenty of fodder for discussion.   

Cheers,


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## Anonymous (14 Dec 2010)

Hi, Been away. Wasnt being rude. Thanks for the reply clive. I can give you more information, that at least might highlight where my error was. Incidentally I'm dosing more than ever, and still getting a nibble of bga. Although I have changed plants and upped the light somewhat in the last 3 weeks.
Ok, tank is a measly 45 litres including filter volume (more or less). Light for what its worth is 2 15 watt t5 lamps about 150mm from surface. Have 450 litre an hour filter now because my large filter packed up. Also koralia rated at 900 lh to make up the shortfall. Its more than enough flow. All pointed from back to front across surface.
Light duration is 3pm to 9.30. Co2 is as high as possible without gassing livestock. Cant say what the figures are, drop checkers turn yellow. The koralia gives a nice amount of surface agitation. Temp is 22 c.
Ferts, For Macro's I dose. 6 teaspoons of kno3 and 1 teaspoon of kh2po4 in 500ml of water. dosed 20ml every morning. Micros, 2 teaspoons micro mix to 100ml of water dosed each evening 5ml.
Water changes are at least 50% weekend and about 25% midweek. I dont use Easy carbo anymore.
I have obviously miscalculated something. My calculations suggest that each ml of macro solution I add, adds approximately 1ppm of kno3.
Local water supply is considered very hard, with high levels of magnesium and calcium. But cant quote figures.
This week I have increased dosing of macro's to 30ml a day. From my stock solution as above. Will keep you posted if your interested.
Thanks


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## Kwokwok (14 Dec 2010)

I for one am definitely interested ! 

Starting out on dry dosing kno3 myself and would love to learn more abt relative levels and effects 

Keep up the good work ! =]


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## CeeJay (14 Dec 2010)

Hi bcoldwine

We're all interested   
Might I just add, for a 45 litre tank, that's a lot of KNO3 you're adding for a 25 day supply. I use less than that on a 180l in my 4 week batches  :? 
I also use less Trace than that too.
So if you get to the root of the problem, you could save yourself some cash by dosing less.


			
				bcoldwine said:
			
		

> Incidentally I'm dosing more than ever, and still getting a nibble of bga.


Quick question, is the 'nibble of BGA' you are still getting in an area of poor flow?


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## ceg4048 (14 Dec 2010)

Yeah, those numbers are really off the chart. The calculations are reasonable. If you're adding 20ml per day then this is about 20ppm per day so that makes it 7 * (20ppm) = 140ppm per week. There really is no way you should need that much to battle BGA.

The lighting is high to very high, but the flow rates are good, so this is a mystery. We now need to question whether the KNO3 you are using is actually KNO3. Is it possible that the bag is mislabled and that it's actually something like a mixture of KNO3 and something else? Another possibility is that there is something happening in the substrate. New ADA Aquasoil tends to release a fair amount of ammonia which can sometimes trigger BGA. Were you using this substrate?

Cheers,


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## Anonymous (15 Dec 2010)

Thanks all, I'm starting to wonder the same as you concerning the kno3, possibly a duff batch? Anyway Have just received a new batch of it so will mix up a new solution and try that.
The substrate was plain old sand and gravel up till about 3 weeks ago when I added some manado to cap it off. But The bga issues are unchanged. 
Rather than make any more changes like I have over the last 3 weeks I'll keep everything as it stands now in order not to muddy the water anymore. But, i'll start with the new mix and see what occurs. 
Question is, do I start dosing high and bring the levels down slowly or just start with reasonable levels from the off. I get a fairly quick response being a small tank, so ill know if its all about to fall over.
Thanks


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## ceg4048 (15 Dec 2010)

Hi mate,
          I always start high and work my way down. If you start low and still get the algae then that just creates more ambiguity. KNO3 should be an off-white color and has a slightly funky odor to it. It also tends to have clumps in it, especially when the humidity is high.

Cheers,


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## Anonymous (16 Dec 2010)

Thanks clive
My kno3 doesnt sound like your kno3, if you know what  I mean. It sure doesnt have any odor I can detect and is whiter than the driven snow. Ill stick with it for now and continue high dosing. But will get on to a new supplier and order some more. If they can deliver it in the impending snow storms.
Thanks for your help Ill continue with 20ml a day for another week and if there is any improvement ill scale it back a fraction.
Bye for now.


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## Anonymous (18 Dec 2010)

Hi all,
Firstly, I have indeed comlicated matters somewhat by making some small changes to the system. This is how things stand now. Ill keep everything as it is and wont change anything while I conduct this experiment. I promise!
Decreased Light from 30 to 15W. Light comes on when ambient light starts to drop off 15.30.
Increased Co2 timing so it comes on at 9am, the reason for this is due to my south facing window collecting direct sunlight at this time of year.
Im now adding approx 30ppm of nitrate and 6ppm of phosphate a day!
Ok, I know those figures are ridiculous. Thats presuming my new batch of ferts are pure.
I'm going to continue with this for some time until everything settles down and bga is gone.
Waterchanges are higher than normal because Ive been doing a lot of cleaning, so ive been doing about 25% 2 or 3 times a week on top of the 50 to 60% at weekends. Filters and pipes all get cleaned at weekend as well. I'll continue this as well.
I may have to tinker with the co2 a bit as the increased timing might tip it the levels over the edge but we'll see.
Secondly, I did say that changes tend to happen pretty quick in this tank, probably due to size. Well, BGA is starting to show signs of slowing down. Before I could clean it out in the morning it would be back in the eve. That isnt happening now. There were also some diatomic algae, which I wasnt concerned about as it was re-planted about a month ago so I was treating it as a new setup anyway. That's also stopped, but its about the right time for that phase to end anyway.
I'm not very good at this type of thing, but we can treat this as an experiment and ill post any dramatic changes that occur with such high dosing levels, including effects on livestock of which I havnt noticed any yet.

Thanks


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## ceg4048 (18 Dec 2010)

Yeah, wow, you're even more over the top than I am.  
Have you compared the consistency and character of the new powder versus the old?

Cheers,


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## CeeJay (18 Dec 2010)

Hi all


			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Yeah, wow, you're even more over the top than I am.


I never thought I'd see the day


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## ceg4048 (19 Dec 2010)

CeeJay said:
			
		

> I never thought I'd see the day


Mate, are you kidding me? 210ppm per week KNO3? Forget about it. This dude is strictly hard core. In real life his name is probably something like Mandingo "The Rock". He's probably ex-Special Forces and does vampire hunting on the side for a little extra cash. You do not want to meet this guy strolling down a dark alley.  

Cheers,


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## CeeJay (19 Dec 2010)

Hi all

   Good one Clive.
Makes the BGA even more of a mystery  :?


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## ceg4048 (20 Dec 2010)

Well, as I mention in an earlier post, it is entirely possible that what was being dosed previously was either something other than KNO3 or a mixture of KNO3 + something else. The OP has purchased a new batch of KNO3 and we'll see if dosing this new batch will reduce the BGA. This is why I asked him to describe the odor and appearance of his original powder.

Cheers,


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## Anonymous (20 Dec 2010)

Ahem, I'm not the kinda girl to be hanging around dark alleyways clive! lol.
However no change yet, nothing significant, bga has slowed down a bit I think. Ill keep cleaning and keep you posted. Failing that I'm waiting on another new batch of ferts from different supplier so will let you know when that comes in.
Thanks


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## ceg4048 (20 Dec 2010)

Ooops, we're gonna have to ask Paulo to include a gender field in the profile page.   In any case, action heroines like Laura Croft are pretty hard core as well you know...

Cheers,


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## CeeJay (20 Dec 2010)

Hi bcoldwine

Just so you don't lose heart, I had an outbreak of BGA in a low tech tank that I'm running when I started it up. When I had that 'eureka moment' and sussed my ferts were too low, the BGA disappeared 4 days after I upped the dosing   
So hang in there.


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## Anonymous (21 Dec 2010)

Thanks CeeJay. I'm not all that concerned, but thanks.  If things didnt go wrong from time to time I wouldn't enjoy the challenge so much and would probably lose interest. Actually Ive been running these high levels since I first started having issues about a year ago. Its only now I started to really push the dosing levels up. It does really throw my fert purity and the supplier into doubt though. I'm going to run outrageously high levels for a while then switch to lower dosing. Over time of course. I like to experiment. You have to fail a a bit to learn anything sometimes. Surely if it was all that easy we would all move on to something else?
My bga isnt that bad really, but would like to get to the bottom of the issue, Its not the only problem i'm getting my vallis is stunted and not very pretty, but never tried it before. In fact I had more luck with some of the supposedly difficult species. I think plant mass plays a factor as well, I'm running fairly low light, so growth is slow. Ive experimented with ridiculous light levels as well and found the maximum sustainable levels I could run in my little tank.
So always learning something. My biggest mistake was upping the light after a re-plant from 11W to 30W. That triggered my outbreak so was my own fault. Ive always upped the light much slower with a new setup and never had problems, so again I learn something.

Thankyou


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## Anonymous (22 Dec 2010)

Fairly interesting development. Have seen some new and exciting Algae in my tank last 3 nights. Yippee.   
Here's a description.
Short strands about 2mm long of what appears to be filamentous algae flying around in the current, bright green. Doesnt appear to settle on any plants just in the water column. Its only visible towards the end of the lighting period and the tank becomes full of it. By morning its gone and have crystal clear water again. But I think its dying and leaving itself draped all over the folliage. Annoying but never seen anything like it before.
So question is Have I succeeded in creating this with the overdosing? Seeing, as its only present in the water column... So far.
Co2 is maxxed out, cant believe its that, light levels are really not high at all as it is a single bulb suspended way above the water line, and there's not been much in the way of ambient light either, cos its very cloudy.
I can only conclude that this is a result of the very high nutrient levels, at the moment. But not enough data yet. I might try taking the levels down again, then ramping them up to see if I can induce it again.


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## Anonymous (25 Dec 2010)

I think Excessive nutrients may inhibit uptake of co2. High levels of either nitrate or phosphate definitely having a negative effect on plant health. Bga, Gda and weird slime. Co2 levels appear to peak with fish gasping at much lower settings than im used to using. Lack of pearling, cloudy water.
Have done a couple of massive water changes and dosing just 5 ppm nitrate 1ppm phosphate per day also reduced trace by 1/5th. Water has cleared up already and bga gone again. Had to turn co2 up as drop checker has gone from yellow to dark green! Interesting. Will let you know what happens.


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## Anonymous (27 Dec 2010)

Bga has vanished below the substrate line now as well. So what is going on? Its too early to tell I know and this is hardly what you could call a controlled experiment. I take back what I said earlier about the high levels deffinitely having a detrimental effect. Im to fond of tinkering with settings and light to get any conclusive results.


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## CeeJay (27 Dec 2010)

Hi bcoldwine


			
				bcoldwine said:
			
		

> Bga has vanished below the substrate line now as well. So what is going on?


Looks like you've finally found the level of KNO3 that does the job   .
With regards to one of your previous observations.


			
				bcoldwine said:
			
		

> I think Excessive nutrients may inhibit uptake of co2. High levels of either nitrate or phosphate definitely having a negative effect on plant health.


I have dosed high levels of both and have never seen this 'negative effect'.
I tend to think of it like this. The order of hierarchy in a planted tank goes something like this.
Light > CO2 > Ferts, in that order. 
Light drives the CO2 demand and to sustain the additional growth your plants require more ferts.
So ferts are at the wrong end of the chain to affect the plants uptake of CO2.


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## Anonymous (28 Dec 2010)

Your right of course, anything could have caused the effects I was seeing. It was a bit premature to suspect the ferts. It was interesting that lowering the levels seemed to have cured most of the issues though.
Anyway, I shall cease the tinkering and conlude this problem solved...For now anyway.
Thankyou all


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## dw1305 (28 Dec 2010)

Hi all,


> .... CO2 levels appear to peak with fish gasping at much lower settings than im used to using. ...


 I think this may be caused by the increased COD (Chemical Oxygen Demand),  so in this case it is decreased O2, rather than a direct CO2 effect. 

Another possibility is that salty water can hold less oxygen, but this is a small effect until you get to quite high conductivities.

cheers Darrel


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