# Advice needed- external filter media



## Sacha (11 Mar 2014)

I have just watched this video: 



Currently on my 125, I run an internal Juwel 1000 lph filter, and an External APS 1400 lph canister filter. 

In the internal, from bottom to top, I have:

Blue coarse sponge
Blue coarse sponge
Cirax (ceramic media)
Blue fine sponge 
Blue fine sponge 
Poly pad (floss) 

In the external, from bottom to top: 

Bottom tray: 

Blue coarse sponge 
Bio balls 

Middle tray: 

Ceramic noodles 

Top tray: 

Fine floss 

According to this guy, all your sponges should be on your bottom tray? So all the mechanical filtration should be done before the biological filtration. Also, he says the ceramics are useless? Is that correct? 

Considering this is a heavily planted Co2 tank, flow needs to be optimal. I'm guessing a lot of my biological filtration is done by the internal filter and the plants. So the external is really just for mechanical filtration, flow, and injecting Co2 via the spray bar. 

According to this guys advice, I should change my external filter media arrangement to this: 

Bottom tray : 

Coarse blue sponge(s)
Fine filter floss 

Middle tray: 

Biological media 

Top tray: 

Biological media 

Now, I have no idea what to do, since a Co2 tank doesn't need all that biological media. What's the best way to fill my external?! I've asked this question many times before, and every time the answers seem to be different


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## Thom_Hardy (11 Mar 2014)

I have been advised by a number of members in here that in a heavily planted tank bio media isn't imperative, bacteria grows everywhere including mechanical filter media! I have been running both my filters without any ceramics in for the last 6 months! I didn't even get a spike when I removed them! 

Ceramics aren't useless by any means but they aren't NEEDED

Saying this as my opinion! Not as gospel! Obviously caution should be taken when removing beneficial  bacteria, but it has worked with no hiccups  for me! 

Hope my late night ramblings might help!



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## Thom_Hardy (11 Mar 2014)

Excuse the shoddy texting, auto correct had a field day...

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## Henry (12 Mar 2014)

If your tank is heavily planted, and everything is growing well, the only media you need to worry about is the stuff that stops particles from clogging the impeller and re-entering the water column. The main concern in planted tanks is flow, and media does little other than slow this down. The way this guy packs the media into his filter, I wouldn't be surprised if he only sees 2/3 of the flow it is capable of.


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## Arne (12 Mar 2014)

Putting the ceramics in the bottom seems like a bad idea. Hindering the flow that should reach the whole underside of the first box so much it might just cut 50% right there.
At least he put some thought into it 

I'm fine with coarse sponge, some bio balls and carbon. Might even swap the bio balls out for more coarse sponge after seeing this


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## Sacha (12 Mar 2014)

Right, so the ceramics are going. 
Should the poly pad move from the top tray to the bottom? 
Should I use any bio media at all?


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## Thom_Hardy (12 Mar 2014)

I personally would buddy! All the do is reduce flow!! and you can leave your poly pads in yeah! Although more flow will be gained with less resistance! 

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## Sacha (12 Mar 2014)

Let's say I remove all the bio media. That means my only biological filtration is coming from the internal filter, and the plants. If I go on holiday for a couple of weeks, and my internal filter impeller seizes up (this has happened before), will the biological filtration of the plants alone be enough to sustain the fish?


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## Edvet (12 Mar 2014)

People here advise just potscrubbers, anything to not block flow. http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/filter-media.31652/#post-337688


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## Arne (12 Mar 2014)

Sacha said:


> Let's say I remove all the bio media. That means my only biological filtration is coming from the internal filter, and the plants. If I go on holiday for a couple of weeks, and my internal filter impeller seizes up (this has happened before), will the biological filtration of the plants alone be enough to sustain the fish?



In a normal healthy tank this is not a problem. Your external filter will still have some measure of biological filtration even without special media, as bacteria are everywhere. As long as there is flow it will be fine for 2-3 weeks.


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## EnderUK (12 Mar 2014)

This is how I have my filter but less packed than his. The idea is sound, that the mechanical filters take out all the crap so that 'clean' water hits the bio media so the bio media does not clog up. The idea of the 10-20-30ppi-floss is that each level takes out smaller and smaller chunks so that it it shouldn't clogs.

The bio media really can be anything, even more sponges, bacteria don't care what surface they cling to. I currently run a 10ppi pre-filter, 10ppi-20ppi sponge and rest of the trays have a layer and a half of clay rings, (because that's what I bought when I got the filter before I knew better). Chances are if you have a planeted tank you're running an over sized filter for your tank, so it really doesn't need to be packed with media. I also have the outlet tap 45 degree closed because any more has my Blue Ram gets pushed around the tank.


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## James O (12 Mar 2014)

+1 on the pot scrubbers.  I have a eheim classic 2/3 full of them.  Flow is excellent and filtration superb.  At £1ish for 12 and with the job they're doing I can't see much point spending more.


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## ian_m (12 Mar 2014)

I always understood on larger capacity high flow filters you put ceramic rings/noodles/pan scrubbers etc before any foam or floss in order to try and remove as much dirt as possible before reaching the finer filter media. This makes the foam/floss last much longer before cleaning than if it were first in the flow.

Also ceramics/rocks have much more biological surface, for bacteria to grow on, per unit volume than foam, panscrubbers, plastic balls etc which may or may not be relevant in your filtration case.


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## dw1305 (12 Mar 2014)

Hi all, 





ian_m said:


> I always understood on larger capacity high flow filters you put ceramic rings/noodles/pan scrubbers etc before any foam or floss in order to try and remove as much dirt as possible before reaching the finer filter media. This makes the foam/floss last much longer before cleaning than if it were first in the flow.


 I think that is what Eheim advice for the "Classic" range, something like:

1. Ceramic rings
2. Coarse foam
3. Eheim substrat Pro
4. Floss
5. Carbon pad

I'm not convinced personally, I don't like any floss or foam inside the filter. 

I like a pre-filter (takes seconds to clean), clean that every week and then just have rings, coco-pops, alfagrog etc. in the filter body. Usually the hoses need cleaning long before filter media does.

cheers Darrel


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## EnderUK (12 Mar 2014)

Manufactures recommend that so the noodles get gunked up and you have to spend more. noodles cost more than sponge and floss. Plus it won't take out the larger stuff that gunks up the floss anyways. 

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## Sacha (12 Mar 2014)

I actually have no idea what to do...!


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## Arne (12 Mar 2014)

sit down, have a think and do whatever you think is, or like best. It's not going to make a huge impact that will change your whole world. 
Every single person has his or her way of doing it and they're all still keeping fish.
Look at the fish, look at the plants and look at the flow. 
Maybe change it up after a few months and see if you can spot the difference. I'll bet you won't notice a thing.


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## dw1305 (13 Mar 2014)

Hi all, 





Sacha said:


> I actually have no idea what to do...!


 Why you are thinking, make a pre-filter from PPI10 or PPI20 foam (or the sponge you already have in the filter, or if you want it in black you can buy the one for the Fluval Edge ("RC Hagen A1387 Fluval Edge Pre-Filter Sponge"). 

Then just leave the rings, cirax and noodles in the filter. Put every thing else in a cupboard, put the pre-filter onto the intake, prime the filter, turn it on, purge any air and then forget about it until the next week, when you clean the pre-filter sponge. 

Job done.

cheers Darrel


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## Sacha (13 Mar 2014)

The problem with that is that the dirt (on the pre- filter) remains in the tank. Half the point of using an external is that the dirt itself leaves the tank


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## dw1305 (13 Mar 2014)

Hi all





Sacha said:


> The problem with that is that the dirt (on the pre- filter) remains in the tank. Half the point of using an external is that the dirt itself leaves the tank


No it isn't. You don't want the external filter media to act as a mechanical filter, you want it purely to act as a biological filter. 

You need a continual flow of oxygenated water through the filter, so all the filter media remains aerobic. People who talk about "long retention" times and both anaerobic and aerobic processes within the same filter are misguided.

You need to syphon out any large debris, smaller items will be captured by the pre-filter sponge. I you want if to capture all the fines you can use a PPI30 pre-filter sponge, but you need to clean it every couple of days.

cheers Darrel


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## Sacha (13 Mar 2014)

dw1305 said:


> You don't want the external filter media to act as a mechanical filter, you want it purely to act as a biological filter.



Well the plot thickens even more. Here I have everyone else telling me that I don't need ANY biological filtration in my external, only mechanical, and now you are saying the exact opposite? Now I am even more confused.


I was thinking of doing the following: 

Bottom tray: 

Coarse Sponge
Poly Pad

Middle tray: 

MINIMAL bio media (maybe some alfagrog or something) 

Top tray:

Poly Pad

Anything wrong with that...?


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## EnderUK (13 Mar 2014)

All though the sponge is a mechanical filter it is also a very good bio filter, as long ad you have good flow through the filter you could use gravel, it doesn't matter.

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## Maximum (13 Mar 2014)

Thanks for this thread - really interesting and thought provoking. I have watched the Tyne Valley videos many times and he is very convincing. Equally people who raise fry and keep shrimp just use sponge filters and no actual media as such. Shrimp and fry are probably more sensitive to water conditions than mature fish but the sponges seem to work well as both a mechanical and bio filter. Many moons ago (before www and forums) I kept a fairly heavily stocked tank with just an undergravel filter and I don't remember problems and certainly no disasters. Perhaps these days with more knowledge and more choice we tend to go in circles trying to have the perfect tank when  most things seem to work either on their own or in combinations. If I bought an empty canister filter I would get scrubbies but I have plenty of ceramic rings, bio balls etc so I don't need to. Flow seems to be more important than media and I doubt if anyone has worked out what is sufficient media - probably a lot less than we all think! Thanks for all the posts, I have learnt a lot and hopefully will learn some more.


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## dw1305 (14 Mar 2014)

Hi all, 


Maximum said:


> Shrimp and fry are probably more sensitive to water conditions than mature fish but the sponges seem to work well as both a mechanical and bio filter.





EnderUK said:


> All though the sponge is a mechanical filter it is also a very good bio filter, as long ad you have good flow through the filter you could use gravel, it doesn't matter.


 Yes that is it really, sponge is a great mechanical and biological filter, I like PPI10 or PPI20 sponges, because I'm not interested in polishing my water. 

Nearly any biological media will do, all I want is that it doesn't impede flow too much, if flow is impeded the water can become locally de-oxygenated. 

I came to realise that even really experienced aquarists often didn't understand this fully, with potentially catastrophic results. This was why I wrote <http://plecoplanet.com/?page_id=829>.

I want ammonia and as much dissolved oxygen as possible in the filter, I don't want anything else.





Maximum said:


> I have watched the Tyne Valley videos many times and he is very convincing.


I've seen these as well with the wick test etc., and it is very interesting and the fish look really healthy, but it isn't really relevant to us. 

In an unplanted situation you are dependent upon microbial conversion of NH3 > NO2- > NO3-, you can tell this *process needs oxygen* because you've gone from 3 hydrogen ions for every nitrogen, to 3 oxygen ions, and it also needs a carbon source. The only ways you can then remove the resultant NO3 is by dilution via water changes, or the anaerobic out-gassing of N2 gas. This oxygen requirement is why the measure of pollution for water and liquid effluents is its "Biochemical Oxygen Demand" (BOD).

Marine Aquarists went away from "wet & dry" trickle filters because they are "nitrate factories", but all that really means is that they are very efficient at biological filtration. They often don't have plants, and are reluctant to change large volumes of water, and because of this they developed systems like plenums and deep sand beds to allow for anaerobic de-nitrification. 

Anaerobic de-nitrification will always have risks involved because if the REDOX or ORP values become too large the whole system may become anaerobic with catastrophic results. This is why trying to have both processes happening in the same filter (via filter media with very fine pores and slow water flow) is a recipe for disaster.

Wet and dry trickle filters are the "gold standard" for biological filtration, but we can do even better than this, we have plants that take up NH3, NO2- and NO3-, produce oxygen and provide lots of surfaces (particularly in the substrate), that support biological filtration. 

Plant/microbe biological filtration systems, with floating or emergent plants, are about an order of magnitude more effective than microbe alone systems, and this means that we are much less dependent upon water changes (and often have to add NO3, rather than try to remove it).

Cheers Darrel


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## Maximum (14 Mar 2014)

Many thanks DW1305 for your lengthy and detailed response, you have helped me to understand the process more clearly. It has also solved my holiday reading problem!


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## Sacha (20 Mar 2014)

I decided in the end to get Sera Siporax media for the bio media in the external.

So I was thinking of doing this, from bottom to top: 

Blue coarse
Filter floss

Sera Siporax

Filter floss

Do I have enough mechanical filtration, or should I add another blue sponge before the floss?


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## stu_ (20 Mar 2014)

Personally I'd lose at least one lot of the floss.I'd rather have to clean sponges more often,than lose the flow brought on by clogged floss.
Just a thought.


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## Sacha (20 Mar 2014)

So just blue coarse > filter floss > sera siporax ?


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## Arne (20 Mar 2014)

I'd use active carbon instead of siporax, but I'm sure it'll be fine like that Sacha


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## PARAGUAY (20 Mar 2014)

A lot of externals have sponge recommended on every for every tray then the media ,noodles on top and floss on sponge at top


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