# When can I add amano shrimp and how many?



## IndyM (23 Apr 2020)

Hey guys. I've got a newly set up nature scaped aquarium going on for about 2 weeks, ammonia is now gone, nitrite is showing at around 2.0ppm. I haven't tested nitrate yet as I figured you need to wait for nitrite to be 0ppm or so before it's relevant to test for nitrate.

I am using the master test kit from api, ammonia is yellow coloured, nitrite is deep pink if that helps. 

Anyway. I have a 200L 100cm wide 45cm deep and 50cm tall tank, heavily planted with ada aqua soil and power sand base.

I'm starting to fight algae quite a bit now, and would love the help of amano shrimp and otocinclus right about now, is it safe?

How many should I add? I was thinking 15? And like 8 otocinclus.

Please advise... Thanks.


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## kilnakorr (23 Apr 2020)

According to Tropica plant guide amanos are added at day 5 (if I remember correct).
I'm not sure I would with nitrite at 2.0 ppm.
Do not at Otocinclus for at least a month or two. They need a mature tank.


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## IndyM (23 Apr 2020)

kilnakorr said:


> According to Tropica plant guide amanos are added at day 5 (if I remember correct).
> I'm not sure I would with nitrite at 2.0 ppm.
> Do not at Otocinclus for at least a month or two. They need a mature tank.


OK well I can definitely just start with the shrimp then if it's safe. I'll wait for one or two more confirmation responses and then bite.

In regards to amount? Does that seem right to you?

As for otos I can wait. That's no issue.


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## Aqua sobriquet (23 Apr 2020)

Unless you’re getting a particularly good price for 15 I’d buy just 5 instead and see how they get on. If they’re all still ok after a week or so I’d buy another 10.


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## IndyM (23 Apr 2020)

Aqua sobriquet said:


> Unless you’re getting a particularly good price for 15 I’d buy just 5 instead and see how they get on. If they’re all still ok after a week or so I’d buy another 10.


Good shout. Do you think this would be safe with my current water parameters? Also do you think 15 end goal amount is OK?


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## Harry H (23 Apr 2020)

Also depends on your frequency of water changes. If you let water sit there for a while, it will get toxic very quickly. I personally put in amanos after first week, while doing water changes every other day.


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## IndyM (23 Apr 2020)

Harry H said:


> Also depends on your frequency of water changes. If you let water sit there for a while, it will get toxic very quickly. I personally put in amanos after first week, while doing water changes every other day.


Being at home now, I've been doing changes every other day.


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## Harry H (23 Apr 2020)

Personally I would put them in now then, assuming you are doing 50% changes, you should be fine. I never had problems with that.


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## Aqua sobriquet (23 Apr 2020)

Amanos seem pretty hardy so I’d give 5 a try. You could have quite a large number in a 200L tank but it depends ultimately how much other stock you intend to put in there. To be honest Amanos do a good job at clean up but they’re a bit boring. I only had a few in my tank before adding some cherries and they’re much more attractive in my opinion. They decided to breed in my little 37L Nano and I now have probably hundreds of juveniles and babies in there.


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## IndyM (23 Apr 2020)

I'm going to buy 8. And then eventually I'll get otos, then the rest of my fish can be added. Probably a goal of 5 species including the amano and otos. Wanna keep it simple.

I think ultimately ill have

Hyphessobrycon sweglesi
Paracheirodon simulans
Microgeophagus ramirezi
Caridina japonica
Otocinclus sp.


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## alto (23 Apr 2020)

kilnakorr said:


> According to Tropica plant guide amanos are added at day 5 (if I remember correct).



BUT
Tropica Aquarium Soil doesn’t release anywhere near the level of ammonia of ADA aqua soil

@GreyFoxIndy are you following ADA water change and fertilizer protocols?
(this should help limit nitrogen buildup and also reduce algae)

You might consider adding some fast growing stems such as L sessiliflora (you can just leave these in the pots if you don’t want them in your scape) - George Farmer’s Tropica Interzoo 2020 videos showed how fast this plant can grow


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## IndyM (23 Apr 2020)

alto said:


> BUT
> Tropica Aquarium Soil doesn’t release anywhere near the level of ammonia of ADA aqua soil
> 
> @GreyFoxIndy are you following ADA water change and fertilizer protocols?
> ...


I am indeed following water change and fertz protocol.


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## alto (23 Apr 2020)

GreyFoxIndy said:


> I'm starting to fight algae quite a bit now


then I’d guess daily 80-90% water changes, so 2ppm nitrite would be unusual

This article may offer some guidelines 


*Determining safe levels of ammonia and nitrite for shrimp culture*
Monday, 16 January 2017 Fabrício Martins Dutra, M.S. Dr. Eduardo Luis Cupertino Ballester

In a fish only system one can follow these sort of guidelines

Excerpt from 

*Chapter 20 - The Biology and Management of the Zebrafish*
Michael Y. Esmail, Keith M. Astrofsky, ... Fabrizio C. Serluca



> Nitrite levels should be monitored regularly and be kept under 0.1 mg/l to avoid possible toxicity. Treatment modalities includes addition of chloride ions, which may competitively inhibit nitrite uptake across gills (Bowser _et al_., 1983). Sodium chloride or calcium chloride can be added to tanks, but care should be taken in increasing salinity of water slowly. Using a 3-mg chloride to 1-mg nitrite ratio, channel catfish (_Ictalurus punctatus_) have been successfully treated for nitrite toxicity. Use of calcium chloride can be added at a concentration of less than 50 mg/l (Tomasso _et al_., 1979). The goal of treatment should be the establishment of a stable, healthy biofilter.


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## IndyM (27 Apr 2020)

My amano shrimp will arrive on Thursday. My tank is now officially showing much less nitrites than reported above and is nearly fully clear. Hooray, I anticipate that by Thursday even more nitrite will have disappeared.

Anyway quick question, should one perform a water change before adding shrimp? Or wait a while?

Furthermore, When is it safe to do water changes once shrimp have been added?

I will drip acclimate them prior to adding them, but again, should this be done in freshly changed water or no?

Thanks.


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## alto (27 Apr 2020)

I usually do a water change before adding new livestock, this way I know I don’t need to potentially stress them with scheduled water change - I try to add new fish/shrimp only once the tank is on a weekly water change schedule 

Shrimp can be more/less sensitive depending on source, I always ask seller about current water conditions, food, water change schedule (sometimes I even get answers ) - strip test (or remove a sample of) the water shrimp arrive in, then add some diluted Prime etc soon after opening the bag

If seller conditions, bag conditions are similar to tank conditions, I worry much less about water changes - if water is quite different, I try to avoid large water changes and put any water change off as long as possible (without any loss in tank water quality) 

Shrimp are generally most sensitive to GH and pH (though Amano are relatively hardy)
(TDS can be skewed by any salt (NaCl) that is in the shipping water - had shrimp arrive with TDS over 2000 despite seller assurances of 100-150 ppm GH, minimal KH, pH 7;  some of the shrimp were in “black water” but TDS was still over 1500 - KH/GH tests were close to expected, hence the NaCl guess ... especially as the guppy bags all had similar TDS)

PFK has a good general article on Amano Shrimp
https://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/features/amano-shrimp-spineless-heroes/

Also Michael at 
https://aquariumbreeder.com/amano-shrimp-detailed-guide-care-diet-and-breeding/

In the last few years, the incidence of alternate species shipping as _Amano shrimp_ has substantially increased
(some are more/less hardy and more/less aggressive) 

If you see that most of your new Amano have moulted, wait 24-36h before doing a water change as shrimp are chemically and physically sensitive until the new exoskeleton “hardens”

I also tend not to feed the first couple days, as I don’t want to trigger a moult (usually this will only happen if excessive food is given) 
Note shrimp may be triggered to moult after being introduced to hew tank parameters 

I also usually drop water level a few cm’s below tank rim to discourage wandering by newly introduced shrimp, after a couple weeks of apparent shrimp “happiness”, I’ll slowly increase water level back to normal


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## IndyM (30 Apr 2020)

I've gone ahead and added 10 shrimp! They're happily grazing away within the first millisecond of adding them.

Super happy.

I'll see how they fair in a couple of days and add another 15 to total 25...

10 are just way too little amount for the size of tank I have.

Love them... My first tank inhabitants  

Next I will add the additional 15, around 8-10 nerite snails.

Then in a couple of weeks I'll add my otocinclus. A bit unsure how many to add though. Any pointers? 

Cheers.


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## IndyM (1 May 2020)

Day 2, they're fine! 

Quick question,

For Safety reasons, I've added a cap full of prime today just to help keep nitrite and nitrate down, this is because I don't believe my tank is fully cycled and now that I've added amano shrimp I don't want to harm them, its been exactly three weeks now since the tank has been running. I'd imagine it'd need a little more than three weeks to become fully cycled.

So, my question is, adding seachem prime isn't harming my cycle is it? It's not killing the beneficial bacteria that are needed to convert nitrite to nitrate is it? Etc

I guess I'm creating a false positive by using Prime, by making me think that the tank is safe during api master kit tests, when it actually isn't.

Any input here?


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## alto (1 May 2020)

Looking at the photo, I’m what concerned - opaque looking shrimp is never a good sign
If they looked like this immediately after you added them, it’s shipping related (or seller related)
If they look like this after several hours to overnight (or 3-4 days) in your tank, it’s less easy to assess cause (seller related or your tank related) 
That they are active and eating is a good sign, I’d also feed some shrimp food with higher protein content (eg 1-2 frozen bloodworms per shrimp  every couple days (if you don’t have any shrimp specific foods) ... otocinclus also enjoy a bloodworm treat now and again)

I’d definitely hold off on ordering any more shrimp from that source 

It’s fine to add 5-10X Prime dose to your tank, just dilute it first so that livestock don’t swim into undiluted Prime - when you add Prime and other water conditioners (and various other aquarium products) you can observe a schlieren effect as the more viscous liquid falls into the water ... it’s good practice to avoid this by pre-diluting the additive 

Seachem did studies (and they’re likely still buried in the site somewhere) showing amounts of Prime required to bind various levels of nitrite etc (binding affinity is ammonia>nitrite>nitrate) - I don’t recall the specifics any longer but I’d begin with 2-5X dose for nitrites
This needs to be added daily

You might find Seachem Stability more efficient/effective 
(there’s more information on Seachem’s Discussion Board )

Neither Prime nor Stability will negatively impact the filter cycle

I’d add 5-7 otocinclus, obviously you could also add more but then you’ll also need to be more consistent in additional feeding


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## IndyM (1 May 2020)

In the three weeks I have had my tank setup I was following the setup steps set out by ada.

First week, 9th April, every day water change, added stability and prime each water change.

Second week 16th April, every other day, added stability and prime each change.

Third week 23rd april, every 2-3 days, added stability until bottle finished, adding prime with each water change. As I ran out of stability, I started using Seachem pristine with each water change.

Did a big water change on 29th April, dosed prime and pristine, Added shrimp on 30th April, dosed prime on same day, 1st May dosed prime.

I was thinking to do a smaller water change tomorrow, dose prime and pristine.

How's that sound?

Here is a small video of the shrimp from today,  I can usually spot around 5-7 shrimp all busy grazing and seem generally happy


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## alto (1 May 2020)

As long as your tap and tank water are well matched, I’d not worry about 50% water changes ... of course, the more you change the tank water, the more likely it is really more like tap water (in the ways not easily measured by an available hobby kits)
So maybe consider 25% daily water changes - this is usually conservative enough not to disturb even sensitive livestock: leave filter running, lights either off (if good ambient lighting) or dim, add Prime to treat 2X tank volume at water change, then maybe another dose 12 hours later 
It is important to siphon water from lower levels in the tank rather than just taking off the top (yes some physical chemist actually showed that nitrates levels are higher at tank bottom than top, and yes, there was water movement in the experimental setup ) 

Then after 5-7 days, do a 50% water change - I can still do this with my filter running 
If all seems well, you might then consider switching from that daily 25% to 50% every third day, and so on until you’re down to 50% weekly water changes again 

If there is significant nitrite present (and must admit I’d use Seachem’s MultiTest Nitrite/Nitrate kit for a more accurate idea of actual levels in tank), you need to consider which is more challenging to the shrimp - bigger water change or more nitrite 

Seachem Pristine vs Stability


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## IndyM (2 May 2020)

my hair algae are going nuts! everywhere lol. trying to siphon it out, but voila, more shows up again.


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## alto (2 May 2020)

I’d suggest Seachem Excel IF shrimp were more established and looking better - do they still look opaque?

At normal daily dosing levels you should see a reduction in algae and I’ve no had any shrimp losses under these conditions (as usual I dilute the Excel before adding) - note I’ve only used Excel (and according to Green Aqua observations not all the liquid carbon products are “equal”)

Maybe a read through of Green Aqua Algae Guide will give you some idea where you want to proceed


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## IndyM (2 May 2020)

will excel harm any plants? can I use excel in conjunction with all the other mentioned additives, can I use it with tnc complete?


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## alto (2 May 2020)

I’ve never had any issue with plants at the recommended doses of Excel but some report issues with fine leaf plants such as R wallichii (mine was fine) and Vallisneria (I dosed Excel as the “carbon source” in a tank heavily planted with Tropica’s spiralis ‘Tiger’ - for years this plant was bound on complete world domination )

Note I have soft acidic tap water 

But as mentioned I would not use Excel given the condition of your Amano Shrimps (as seen above),  I also wouldn’t use Excel when new shrimp have been added to a tank 

I’d wait for successful first moults on your Amano, then after 2-3 days, maybe begin with Excel dosing

You may find that adding a nitrogen binding resin is helpful

From a recent journal

*Jasons Learning Curve*



> As you can see from the last image there are 4 swordtails temporarily in the tank as their old aquarium will be used for raising dart frog tadpoles. Anyways to get back on track they have been in there for a day now and it seems like they must eat green thread algae as it has drastically decreased since they have been added. I am not sure if they are known algae eaters but they haven't stopped pecking the plants and hardscape since being added.



It’s not unusual for various swords/black molly/guppy etc to pick away at algae especially when lightly fed otherwise


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## IndyM (2 May 2020)

OK I know these kind of tests can be incorrect often, but, I've attached an image for you to see, I've correlated a lot of this with my api master test kit and more or less the same.

Some concerns this morning are that c02 is low, and carbonate hardness are high. And nitrates are high, that I knew about due to tank still cycling. I added two cap full of prime to help minimise that a bit.

Some notes, tank is heavily planted, with ada power sand and amazonia, seiryu stone, wood.

Bolbitis keeps dying, browning of leaves or faded/darkening of leaves.

When I did the test, it was morning prior to lights on, c02 switches on 2 hours before lights on at 11am. Today I aim to address the c02 concern by making sure that the drop checker hits lime green.

Because I have a hooded tank, made of oak and such, I can't easily fit a lilly pipe set with skimmer, so I'm using the Oase spray bar and outflow than came with the biomaster Thermo 600. 

My spray bar goes along the length of my tank, right side till just after middle point, then a gap and then outflow On the very left, its in two parts to lengthen the bar. One I have aimed slightly higher to cause surface agitation, not too much mind, one is facing more into the tank diagonally downwards to create a flow. Is this advisable? Should I shorten the spray bar to one piece and aim up or down to increase flow?


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## dw1305 (2 May 2020)

Hi all, 





alto said:


> opaque looking shrimp is never a good sign


I'd agree with that, they should be translucent and not at all "milky". There isn't much you can do in terms of treatment, so I'd just keep an eye on them. 

In the photo the _Blyxa_ looks really pale, is it as pale as it looks? and do the new leaves look any greener?



 

cheers Darrel


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## IndyM (2 May 2020)

I think some of these visibilitys are due my camera on my phone which tends to make things look more pale.

To my eye the shrimp look fine, that above picture was more or less the minute they were added to tank, they're not THAT opaque like in the photo. The blyxa is a maniac, grows like hell. I actually took some bkyxa out because it was going insane.


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## dw1305 (2 May 2020)

Hi all, 





GreyFoxIndy said:


> To my eye the shrimp look fine, that above picture was more or less the minute they were added to tank, they're not THAT opaque like in the photo. The blyxa is a maniac, grows like hell. I actually took some bkyxa out because it was going insane.


That sounds promising so fingers crossed.

cheers Darrel


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## IndyM (2 May 2020)

Finding it hard to get the c02 right. This morning the drop checker was blue, so I raised my bubble count slightly, My drop checker has starting to go yellow. Reducing the bubble rate again.

I've mounted the spray bar to the side now, shortened it. The idea is to push water to the inlet which is on the opposite side. Seem good? Or should the inflow be the same side as the spray bar.

The closest I can get to a lily pipe positioned on the side of the tank. The holes are skimming the surface ever so slightly to cause some minor surface agitation, a visible mist of c02 decorates all the tank now, compared to before and pretty much all plants move compared to before where I felt I had dead spots.

Which way you reckon the holes should point? Horizontal, diagonally into the tank? Vertical?

The inlet is in the left back corner.


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## Witcher (2 May 2020)

alto said:


> Looking at the photo, I’m what concerned - opaque looking shrimp is never a good sign
> If they looked like this immediately after you added them, it’s shipping related (or seller related)





dw1305 said:


> I'd agree with that, they should be translucent and not at all "milky". There isn't much you can do in terms of treatment, so I'd just keep an eye on them.



Guys, don't you think they are preparing for molting? This process is very common after sudden change of water parameters - and @GreyFoxIndy 's shrimps are in new home now with new water etc. I know that shrimps usually hide before/while molting, but this tank is not heavily planted (yet) so we can see them.


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## IndyM (2 May 2020)

Update on the shrimps (day 3). They're all the same as yesterday. Active, eating, grazing, constantly working and doing a great job, just need a lot more to make an actual impact though. No issues to report. I can usually count around 6-7 out of the 10 I put in, but they hide so damn well. Either three are hiding really well to molt, or they died and I cannot find them.

But overall. I'm not worried they seem fine. So far, will keep monitoring.

If all stays this way, I'll add 15 more on Tuesday.


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## IndyM (5 May 2020)

I am pleased to say, the original batch of shrimp have totally gone glass see through. 

Due to this, I have bought and added another 14 today. They are indeed a little milky like last time, I am hopeful that they too will adjust and become clear. 

Lastly, I added 8 zebra nerite snails and my god, do they clean up or what??! Amazed how good they are. Nuts. 

My tank feels alive now. Plenty of things to see. 

Efforts paying off.


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen (6 May 2020)

GreyFoxIndy said:


> I've mounted the spray bar to the side now, shortened it. The idea is to push water to the inlet which is on the opposite side. Seem good? Or should the inflow be the same side as the spray bar.
> 
> The closest I can get to a lily pipe positioned on the side of the tank. The holes are skimming the surface ever so slightly to cause some minor surface agitation, a visible mist of c02 decorates all the tank now, compared to before and pretty much all plants move compared to before where I felt I had dead spots.
> 
> ...


A potential issue with your new spray bar position is that there’s nothing forcing the water flow to visit the lower reaches of your tank. As it is now, assuming your holes are just below the surface and pointing horizontally, the water will skim along the surface along the length of the tank and will have lost most of its momentum by the time it reaches the opposite end. You’ll have good water movement near the surface, but nothing much lower down.

Your previous placement was more conventional, with the spray bar along the back wall just below the surface, with the holes pointing horizontally forwards. This means that the water reaches the front glass with plenty of spare momentum, and that carries the water downwards to the substrate where it still has enough momentum to make a further turn back towards the rear of the tank. Thus you’re giving water flow to all levels of the tank. If you wish, you can angle the holes very slightly above the horizontal to give more surface agitation, although you need to balance that against the slight loss of tank flow.

The only problem with your previous layout was that the spray bar wasn’t long enough to run the full length of the tank. If it’s not possible to buy extra lengths that you can join together with short bits of rubber tube, you could make your own spray bar by clamping a length of tubing or pipe and drilling holes. If you’re not confident with a drill then you could make holes by heating a metal skewer.

Making your own spray bar has the advantage that you can experiment with the number of holes and their diameter until you get the best flow and distribution. Too few holes, or too small, will restrict flow; too many holes, or too large, and too much water will exit at one end. You may find it best to err on the side of too few or too small, so the water exits the holes with enough speed to make the full circular flow I described above. When I made my spray bar I had several attempts before I got it about right!


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## IndyM (6 May 2020)

Today my shrimp are acting strange. Just sitting around not doing very much. Yesterday I added 14 new shrimp and 8 nerite snails. The snails seemed to have done an amazing clean up job. So that's excellent. But the shrimp. Seem to be very inactive and not grazing.

I tested my water and nitrate is at around 40ppm - 80ppm hard to tell with the api test kit. As you may know by now from reading this thread, the tank may not be fully cycled.

I decided to test my own tap water today, not sure why I didn't do this before.

But it tests at around 40ppm nitrate!

I'm a little flustered right now. What should I do?

I dosed a little extra prime today to help detoxify the tank.

I’d try a water change - if you want to be conservative, do 25%
If that seems to improve shrimp activity, do another 25% later (as in a couple hours or several hours)

Or do a 50% water change - with newly introduced shrimp I wouldn’t change more than 50% 

Again, I’ve leave the filter running during the water change



alto said:


> I’d try a water change - if you want to be conservative, do 25%
> If that seems to improve shrimp activity, do another 25% later (as in a couple hours or several hours)
> 
> Or do a 50% water change - with newly introduced shrimp I wouldn’t change more than 50%
> ...


Even though my tap water is 40ppm nitrate? I'm so worried, man.


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen (6 May 2020)

40 ppm NO₃ is on the high side for tapwater, but within the legal limit (which I believe is 50).

It’s also on the high side for an aquarium, but certainly not massively so. Definitely worth taking into consideration when doing your fertiliser calculation - you won’t need to add any NO₃ at all if you’re using 100% tapwater.

I agree with the suggestion of a water change. There may be something else (ammonia? nitrite?) that needs removing. Doing it 25% at a time is a good idea; I think I’d do 25% now and plan to do another 25% later today or first thing tomorrow.


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## dw1305 (6 May 2020)

Hi all, 





GreyFoxIndy said:


> Even though my tap water is 40ppm nitrate? I'm so worried, man.


Yes change some water.  We don't know at what level NO3 becomes toxic, but it is a high level and almost certainly in the hundreds of ppm. 

The NO3 in your tap water is exactly that already *NO3*, but in your tank some of that NO3 is the <"smoking gun"> from previously high levels of ammonia (NH3) and nitrite (NO2-), due to the increased bioload.

You need to remove, <"or detoxify">, any NH3 or NO2- as rapidly as possible. 

cheers Darrel


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## IndyM (6 May 2020)

OK I done around 40 percent change water just now. They seem to have started grazing again, at least the few I can see. 

So scary that was. I'll keep an eye on them still.

Thank you guys.

I also changed the spray back to its original configuration, going just over half way across the back.


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## dw1305 (6 May 2020)

Hi all, 





GreyFoxIndy said:


> OK I done around 40 percent change water just now. They seem to have started grazing again, at least the few I can see.


That sounds promising. I'd probably keep changing a bit more water and make sure you have <"plenty of oxygen">, possibly via a bit more <"surface agitation">.

The last thing is don't remove any of the growing vegetation at the moment, <"more plant mass"> will definitely help reduce NH3, NO2- and NO3- levels.

cheers Darrel


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## IndyM (6 May 2020)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, That sounds promising. I'd probably keep changing a bit more water and make sure you have <"plenty of oxygen">, possibly via a bit more <"surface agitation">.
> 
> The last thing is don't remove any of the growing vegetation at the moment, <"more plant mass"> will definitely help reduce NH3, NO2- and NO3- levels.
> 
> cheers Darrel


I have the spray bar agitating the surface gently, holes going horizontal. I have Inline c02.


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## dw1305 (6 May 2020)

Hi all, 





GreyFoxIndy said:


> I have the spray bar agitating the surface gently. I have Inline c02.


You have to balance the increased level of CO2 out-gassing with the surface agitation.

It is easier for me, because I don't add CO2 and a larger gas exchange surface probably increases CO2 levels (via equilibrium with atmospheric levels), <"rather than depleting it">.

cheers Darrel


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen (6 May 2020)

That’s great news that the shrimps are happier. I think I’d still do another change a bit later on, perhaps 25%. And I think I’d do 25% every day for a little while if you have time.

And don’t beat yourself up if you do lose a shrimp or two; we’ve all been there when sometimes our best endeavours weren’t enough, or we’ve done the wrong thing! It happens to us all.


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## IndyM (6 May 2020)

Dr Mike Oxgreen said:


> That’s great news that the shrimps are happier. I think I’d still do another change a bit later on, perhaps 25%. And I think I’d do 25% every day for a little while if you have time.
> 
> And don’t beat yourself up if you do lose a shrimp or two; we’ve all been there when sometimes our best endeavours weren’t enough, or we’ve done the wrong thing! It happens to us all.


One or two indeed. I wouldn't beat myself up. But damn, when all 20 or whatever were behaving this way I was about to have a meltdown.

I'll do another change tomorrow? Maybe today. I'd still to dose prime and pristine with each change? What about fertiliser? Tnc complete FYI 9ml every day for high tech 200 L tank


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## IndyM (6 May 2020)

The majority of them are still hiding, only 4 are out and about grazing. 

Slightly concerning. But at least they arent all sitting at the top of the tank or trying to climb out like before.

Not quite quite sure what to do to get the rest out of hiding. I cant even see them, I suspect they're all hiding in the stem plants, so hard to see them inside that. God knows how I will get them out if they were to die.

Snails are super active. In fact I'm starting to worry that they'll eat all the food the shrimp would be grazing on. I have hikari mini algae wafers if anything.


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen (6 May 2020)

GreyFoxIndy said:


> Not quite quite sure what to do to get the rest out of hiding.


I’d do another water change. 25% should do it.


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## IndyM (6 May 2020)

Dr Mike Oxgreen said:


> I’d do another water change. 25% should do it.


Done. Nearly 40% again. Let's see. Tried siphoning low down in the tank.

From tomorrow I'll do smaller 1/3 changes daily?


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## alto (6 May 2020)

Don’t add any extra food for several days - not until you have some idea of the issue or at least it resolves and shrimp are happy and active again 
Then add very small amounts of food - you don’t want to trigger a moult when water conditions may be questionable 
(during moult and after, shrimp are very sensitive to any questionable water parameters, the moult process itself carries a certain level of risk especially if shrimp are not well prepared, it’s also very energy expensive)

Shrimp are hiding due to stress etc, definitely don’t try to force them out into easy viewing 
If shrimp die, they often become more visible as the current will move them (unless they’ve gone under wood/stone)

Did you add any of the shipping water?
Lots of rain perhaps - if tap water source is affected by rainfall/storms - or any roadworks?

In addition to the daily water changes, I’d add a good amount of marine grade activated carbon (Seachem is fine if available), also maybe some Seachem Purigen ( these will tend to bind different compounds) 

If shrimp seem to do better after a water change, I’d likely continue with 40-50% but you’re the only one that can actually see what’s happening 

Dead snails are usually much more an issue, so monitor these closely


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## alto (6 May 2020)

For the spray bar, I’d raise this higher so that the holes can be slightly more diagonal into the water, while still maintaining good surface agitation 

FWIW I had better flow with both (eheim) inlet and outlet on the same side (while this seems counterintuitive, flow testing showed it was a slightly better circular pattern) of a 90 x 45 x 53cm (high) tank - much depends on your hardscape and plant growth/density


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## IndyM (6 May 2020)

alto said:


> Don’t add any extra food for several days - not until you have some idea of the issue or at least it resolves and shrimp are happy and active again
> Then add very small amounts of food - you don’t want to trigger a moult when water conditions may be questionable
> (during moult and after, shrimp are very sensitive to any questionable water parameters, the moult process itself carries a certain level of risk especially if shrimp are not well prepared, it’s also very energy expensive)
> 
> ...


No. I didn't add any shipping water. I acclimated them in a bucket and then netted them and gently added to my tank.

I have purigen and seachem matrix in my oase biomaster thermo 600. About 80% matrix, one purigen bag and filter floss at the very top. 

Speaking of which when should I do a full filter clean?

What about pre filter cleans? Filter floss cleans? 

I haven't got any carbon in the filter. Originally I was going to do it at the start but for some Reason I didn't end up doing it.

Considering my current filter setup do you think I need to?


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## IndyM (6 May 2020)

Also. I think the snails are causing ammonia to go up. Maybe I have too many or?


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## alto (6 May 2020)

I’m sceptical that living snails have much impact on your ammonia - 8 zebra snails in this water volume is pretty insignificant unless one has died: snails bodies seem to go quite nasty rather quickly - you can always tell a resting or dormant snail from a DOA by the smell (which also clings to your fingers))


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## IndyM (6 May 2020)

I hope my cycle hasnt crashed or never even established. I used stability until it ran out. Then I switched to seachem pristine as I was advised.


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## alto (6 May 2020)

No Oase filters available locally so I’ll just repeat George Farmer
- clean prefilter weekly
- check (rinse) filter monthly 

During tank setup I prefer not to disturb the filter too much, but if you’ve had significant plant melt/old leaf loss, then it’s a good idea to open the filter and check, rinse out any debris
As filter is just establishing, be sure to use Prime treated tap water for any filter rinsing 

Depending on the type of filter floss, this can easily be rinsed or is better replaced when it appears “dirty”


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## alto (6 May 2020)

Again, I’d not add the Pristine - is this advice from Seachem?

It’s not a replacement for Stability and has very different bacteria and I don’t really see the advantage of using this at this time in your tank “cycle”


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## alto (6 May 2020)

I’d add carbon to the filter as you’re seeing issues with the shrimp - they are often very sensitive to copper and other unknowns which may appear in tap water 
(eg my City put in a new water main without any general notice, I figured this out after I did a routine water change and all my fish and shrimp began showing signs of extreme stress (and died))

Carbon won’t add any negatives and may remove whatever is causing shrimp stress 
Always rinse carbon before adding to the tank, some will release loads of “dust”, some will spit and crackle (which is a good sign )


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## IndyM (6 May 2020)

I counted the snails. All 8 are in. All 8 appear to be moving. 

Pristine was recommended to me by two places, aquarium gardens and scaped nature here in the UK specialising in aquascaping. 

Dose stability till finished. Switch to pristine with water changes.


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## IndyM (6 May 2020)

I'll add seachem matrix carbon, earliest I will receive goods is Friday due to coronavirus and amazon. Where should it be placed in a filter? At the moment I have 6 baskets if I recall correctly

Right now I have it as so if I can remember correctly

JBL Symec Filterwool
Purigen
Matrix
Matrix
Matrix
Matrix

Perhaps I should also dose stability again.


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## alto (6 May 2020)

I like both AG and SN  but I remain sceptical - what do they say the Pristine will do?

You want to place the carbon in “clean” water as any debris will just block potential surface area - while the prefilter will remove larger debris, you may still have significant amounts of fine debris - a quick look through the filter should easily clarify the situation (in your filter)
If that top tray of Matrix looks very clean, place carbon here or in same tray as Purigen depending on space constraints

I usually place carbon after a fine sponge/coarse filter floss and before the final polishing floss - if you check the carbon in 2-4 weeks and there’s any “muck”, then adjust placement


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## IndyM (6 May 2020)

alto said:


> I like both AG and SN  but I remain sceptical - what do they say the Pristine will do?
> 
> You want to place the carbon in “clean” water as any debris will just block potential surface area - while the prefilter will remove larger debris, you may still have significant amounts of fine debris - a quick look through the filter should easily clarify the situation (in your filter)
> If that top tray of Matrix looks very clean, place carbon here or in same tray as Purigen depending on space constraints
> ...



Essentially, ongoing maintenance, clarity of the water, cleaning of gunk.


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## jaypeecee (6 May 2020)

alto said:


> Then add very small amounts of food - you don’t want to trigger a moult when water conditions may be questionable
> (during moult and after, shrimp are very sensitive to any questionable water parameters, the moult process itself carries a certain level of risk especially if shrimp are not well prepared, it’s also very energy expensive)



Hi @alto 

I don't want to detract from the OP's original question but, in a nutshell, what conditions trigger a moult? The implication from above is that food is a factor. Anything else?

TIA.

JPC


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## alto (6 May 2020)

I’d suggest reading these articles posted by Michael - they include photos 


*Aquarium: Molting Process and Metabolism of the Dwarf Shrimp


Dwarf shrimp and Molting problems. The White Ring of Death

*
If you read through discussions on shrimpspot.com you’ll find more observations and conjecture (that I find interesting ) 
Hint: molt is used more on some forums than moult
*
*


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## jaypeecee (6 May 2020)

Hi @alto 

Many thanks for that. Funnily enough, I was in touch with Michael a couple of days ago about copper test strips.

JPC


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## IndyM (6 May 2020)

that's very interesting, some of my amano seem like they COULD be moulting then.

_Shrimp start curling their tails right under themselves so that their whole body forms a tight “U” shape. By doing so they stretch and loosen their old shell._

I've seen this a few times TODAY!


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## alto (6 May 2020)

Unfortunately they can also do this when stressed but hopefully it’s the beginning of a well executed moult 

If you do see any moults, I’d do max 25% water changes - if you want to change more water, I’d do a second water change 8-12h later


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## IndyM (6 May 2020)

25% it is then. I really hope my drastic water changes today haven't done any harm to them. The first one was definitely very beneficial as this stopped them wanting to go to the top of the tank. The second one, I'm not sure. We'll see tomorrow. Time to sleep now.


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## IndyM (7 May 2020)

So it's the morning. Came down to find two shrimp had died, went pink like a cooked shrimp.

Removed them, removed a bunch of hair algae that had generated what seems like just overnight, although there's still quite a bunch of it all within the background stems which I find hard to get rid off... I'd trim the plants but to help with oxygen I have reserved doing so based on a post earlier in this thread, and then did a 30% water change.

Dosed prime.

Haven't dosed TNC complete fertiliser. Not sure if I should or not.

From what I can see the snails have been very busy cleaning up as things look nice, I also siphoned out some of their poop too which was found along some rock edges. They sure poop a lot. Damn.

On the bright side, I feel the shrimp seem more active today.

What should I do about fertiliser at the moment? Giving my water parameters and ongoing livestock situation.

I'm still waiting for the order of carbon, I also ordered more stability, and prima decided to get some Indian almond leaves too, not sure if I'll use them or whatever, but just incase. Should arrive tomorrow.


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## IndyM (7 May 2020)

Decided to film a video for a friend to see. Sharing it here so you guys can see how things are as of today.

Any observations? Cheers!

I was dumbing down some of the info in the video for my friend who doesn't really know that much about the aquarium, so forgive that lol.


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## IndyM (8 May 2020)

I did a good old maintenance today. Trimmed the plants down to about midline in the background.

Removed some hair algae, removed a blue looking algae from rock and wood, came out really easily in a solid clump, wasn't gooey. Can be seen in video above post.

Found a moult, removed it.

Changed water approx 30-40%

Going to ease off changing water daily now. Shrimp and snail all seem active.

Progress!

My marsilea crenata isn't doing so hot... Not entirely sure why. Got a new light coming soon twinstar 900sa, maybe that'll help. But could be too late as when crenata started melting it spreads over to nearby leaves. Seeing as this is the second time it's dying, I might change to a different plant. Like mini hair grass... Not sure.


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## IndyM (9 May 2020)

@alto my seachem matrix carbon and other items arrived last night, so this morning I figured it was type for a full filter check up/maintenance.

I removed the filter, cleaned the pre filter with aquarium water, wasn't too bad actually, then I removed each platform and rinsed the media again in aquarium water.

My layers are now as follows since I added the carbon... 

*TOP*
Purigen (light brown at the moment) 
JBL Symec Filterwool (replaced old floss) 
Seachem Matrix Carbon
Seachem Matrix
Seachem Matrix
Seachem Matrix
*BOTTOM
*
I then reattached filter and topped off the water which I extracted for clean up. Re-dosed Prime, Stability, Pristine, added fertiliser 5ml TNC complete and that's it!

I'm not entirely sure I needed to add carbon as the shrimp and snails all seemed OK. But either way I've done it now.

Any further steps? Recommendations? How long should I keep that carbon in?


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## papa_c (9 May 2020)

GreyFoxIndy said:


> I did a good old maintenance today. Trimmed the plants down to about midline in the background.
> 
> Removed some hair algae, removed a blue looking algae from rock and wood, came out really easily in a solid clump, wasn't gooey. Can be seen in video above post.
> 
> ...


I remember read somewhere not to remove the mounts and the shrimp eat them as a source of calcium. I tend to leave mine in there and they "disappear" very quickly.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk


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## IndyM (9 May 2020)

papa_c said:


> I remember read somewhere not to remove the mounts and the shrimp eat them as a source of calcium. I tend to leave mine in there and they "disappear" very quickly.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk


True. Eh, it was just one in the middle of the sand and no shrimp were coming near it.


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## IndyM (9 May 2020)

Ever since I did this filter maintenance and adding of carbon, which I doubt is the problem, the shrimp are all hidden and not really doing their normal thing.

Probably for about 2 - 3 hours now. 

Can barely ever see one.

Not sure what's up but I guess it's better than them all floating around the top of the tank in a panic like that first time this happened.

These constant up downs are starting to get the better of me... *sigh*


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## dw1305 (9 May 2020)

Hi all, 





GreyFoxIndy said:


> I did a good old maintenance today. Trimmed the plants down to about midline in the background.





GreyFoxIndy said:


> I removed the filter, cleaned the pre filter with aquarium water, wasn't too bad actually, then I removed each platform and rinsed the media again in aquarium water.





GreyFoxIndy said:


> These constant up downs are starting to get the better of me


I know exactly what you mean, but you really need to let things settle down and get some stability.

From earlier in the thread 





dw1305 said:


> ........I'd probably keep changing a bit more water and make sure you have <"plenty of oxygen">, possibly via a bit more <"surface agitation">. The last thing is don't remove any of the growing vegetation at the moment, <"more plant mass"> will definitely help reduce NH3, NO2- and NO3- levels..........


 Just have a couple of weeks with minimum maintenance (pre-filter clean once a week?) and water change, nothing else.

Then you can assess where you are.

cheers Darrel


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## hypnogogia (9 May 2020)

GreyFoxIndy said:


> @alto
> 
> and topped off the water which I extracted for clean up. Re-dosed Prime, Stability, Pristine, added fertiliser 5ml TNC complete and that's it!



Are you sure you need all those additives?  One water conditioner such as prime should be sufficient if your tank has properly cycled.


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## IndyM (9 May 2020)

hypnogogia said:


> Are you sure you need all those additives?  One water conditioner such as prime should be sufficient if your tank has properly cycled.


I decided to add stability today just because I did big filter maintenance. Just for upkeep really.

Pristine I've been adding per water change, helps with waste management.

TNC Complete is the fertiliser.

The Shrimp are still mostly hiding today or sitting around not doing a heck of a lot, this is approx 8 hours now. I tested the water with API Test kit and its 0 on ammonia, 0 on nitrite, didn't test nitrate as this number seems quite skewed due to adding fertiliser and such. Plus, I just did a water change today, so felt a bit irrelevant.


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