# Algae Issue from Empty CO2 bottle



## amritc1 (28 Sep 2017)

Hi All,

Whilst on Holiday I came back to an empty bottle of CO2 and tank was full of algae.
I am currently still removing the algae from the tank, trimmed everything back and have upped the CO2.
Also I have reduced the light from 4 x 59w T5's without the LED strips. Photo period reduced from 7 hours to 5 and half hours.

Would like to confirm if this is BBA?
Also would like to know how deep should I cut the Monte Carlo?
I have already give it a massive trim and removed some plants that were all covered.






Has gone slightly lighter in colour since the changes.

Full Tank shot




Thanks in advance


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## amritc1 (11 Oct 2017)

Hi All,

Seems like things are getting worse in the tank 














Full Tank shot from last night




Since I last posted I have done the following:
I have increased CO2 and decreased the lights.
Two 60-70% water changes and another one due today.
Cleaned filters and also added new Eheim pre-filters & Chihiros Doctor 2 Super.

Daily Dosing as per usual
 - 5ml of Excel
 - 2ml of Ferro
 - 10ml if Profito

I would like some advice if I am doing things correctly before I decide to give up on the carpet and rip it all out. It's my first time I have managed to get the carpet this far.

Thanks in advance.
Amrit


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## dukydaf (11 Oct 2017)

That on the glass looks like bga, blue green algae. Water changes won't work. It still looks manageable with just removal and spraying with h2o2. If too much you need to dose erythromycin to get rid of it.  Details are online or I will edit my post later. 

Meanwhile for your tank, no trimming. 

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## Edvet (11 Oct 2017)

Erythromycine also kills a lot of beneficial bacteria. Doing a blackout and dosing N helps too and is less dangerous. Also you get in contact with Ery and that could promote bacterial resistance. And you need to remove it safely.
http://www.pharmaceutical-journal.c...se-of-antibiotics-in-animals/20067064.article


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## amritc1 (12 Oct 2017)

Thanks guys,

Had a quick read about Erythromycine and think its not the route I would like to take. 
Fairly new to dosing so need to do a bit of reading around that.
Daily Dosing as per usual
- 5ml of Excel
- 2ml of Ferro
- 10ml of Profito
Might invest in the EI salts from one of the sponsors on here.

As I only have three dosing pumps what would you recommend I should drop and replace?
Also for the Blackout do you still keep the CO2 running?
How about adding an air pump during blackout? Would this help.

Sorry for all the questions.


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## Edvet (12 Oct 2017)

You don't need CO2, no lights= no plantgrowth,
Airpump wil increase flow and gasexchange at the surface, fish might like that.


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## amritc1 (12 Oct 2017)

Thank you for the prompt reply Edvet.
Will give this a go and start the blackout tonight. I have just purchased EasyLife Nitro for dosing N hope this is ok?
Do I still carry on dosing the with the blackout?


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## Edvet (12 Oct 2017)

http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm


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## amritc1 (12 Oct 2017)

Thanks again,for pointing me in right direction.
I am going to try the blackout based on Clive's comment in this thread https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads...it-from-pauls-200l-journal.12067/#post-127409
Some very useful information there and will update this thread after the blackout.


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## Cactusface (12 Oct 2017)

Hi,
    I've had a BBA problem for most of this year, an early try with Hydrogen Peroxide or H2O2 failed. But a couple of weeks ago I got myself 2x bottles of 9% HP, throw 100ml into my Aqua-1 170L tank (Led lighting and CO2), this  unfortunately killed a few Tetras (4) and a Blue Ram, But it seems to have done the trick, although I did also soak some bad plants and rocks/wood in it, that was about 25ml in a 10L bucket for some time..
In my Juwel Rio 125 I added 50ml, this killed off all the tread algae which was getting to be a problem, and NO fish suffered at all, as far as I could tell, no thrashing about or panic gasping etc....   I have now also reduced the lights/timers    so lights on 9am-12am then 5pm-10pm which should help!

Will report back later, any help or comments very welcome.

Regards

Mel.


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## amritc1 (12 Oct 2017)

Hi Mel,
Thanks for the info, going to try the blackout first and work with the nutrients. 
If this fails then will try peroxide after rehoming 100 cardinals, 50 shrimp, shrimplets, 3 ottos and 5 nerite snails. Oh and the 5 amanos.



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## dukydaf (12 Oct 2017)

I think spot dosing with hydrogen peroxide would be a lot better than a blackout. It is not only faster but works. Start with small doses to see the reaction of fish. Turn off the filter\power head and dose with a syringe in the visible patches. Wait 5 minutes and turn the filter back on. Wait a few hours and dose in the next spot. The algae will turn  red or white.


Edvet said:


> Erythromycine also kills a lot of beneficial bacteria. Doing a blackout and dosing N helps too and is less dangerous. Also you get in contact with Ery and that could promote bacterial resistance. And you need to remove it safely.
> http://www.pharmaceutical-journal.c...se-of-antibiotics-in-animals/20067064.article


I have to strongly disagree. Erythromycine does not significantly influence the nitrification cycle. It is unable to kill certain bacteria due to their membrane structure. It may select for the species that are resistant to erythromycin, but resistance is either an innate characteristic or already acquired. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2765652/

Many aquarists used the method and the only increase in N products was when massive amounts of algae were left to decompose in the aquarium. Antibiotic resistance in bacteria is not as simple as getting into contact with ... Suffice to say high dose for enough time prevents most.

Second, just personal experience and tests with blackouts. They don't work for me and they harm the  plants more than the algae. Tried it with bga specifically several times and all the times it failed. Green water... Failed. Hair algae... Fail. A sample of bga in a flask with aquarium water was able to regrow after 6 months of complete darkness. At the moment I have a cladophora sample still green after 2 months of darkness. I don't l want to keep the aquarium that long without light. 

For the rare cases when it works something else happens that may be a side product of the blackout taking place under certain conditions. Now that is interesting... 


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## Edvet (13 Oct 2017)

From:
*Use of Antibiotics in Ornamental Fish Aquaculture1 *

Roy P. E. Yanong2

Misuse of any antibiotic can lead to the creation of resistant bacteria in a facility. In an attempt to avoid this, some farms will rotate the antibiotics they use every few months or every year. However, the best solution is to positively identify the bacteria by running culture and sensitivity tests, and thereby avoid unnecessary, costly, and potentially harmful treatments.


The most extreme cases of misuse and ‘shot-gunning’ can result in ‘superinfections’ in fish. These infections are caused by bacteria that are resistant to most of the commonly used antibiotics. Obviously, this situation is not desirable, and it is completely avoidable in most cases.



I am not saying it won't work, just that in today's view it's not the prefered way.
The article you mention refers to wastewater treatment. This has little bearing on the home  situation. Should you get a resistant Streptococ there could be a more serious problem. While the whole world is striving to get antibiotic use down, in my mind blindly using it in our home environment, while there is ample evidence alternatives work (http://aquariumalgae.blogspot.nl/ amongst other people's and my own experience) is a shortsighted route


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## Cactusface (13 Oct 2017)

Hi Edvet,
                See what your saying, in fact just as in Humans, the common over use of antibiotics.


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## dw1305 (13 Oct 2017)

Hi all, 





dukydaf said:


> If too much you need to dose erythromycin to get rid of it.





dukydaf said:


> I have to strongly disagree. Erythromycine does not significantly influence the nitrification cycle. It is unable to kill certain bacteria due to their membrane structure. It may select for the species that are resistant to erythromycin, but resistance is either an innate characteristic or already acquired. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2765652/


From the referenced paper..





> .......However, through analyzing microbial communities of the three steady state SBRs (sequencing batch reactors) on high-density microarrays (PhyloChip), ERY (trace erythromycin), and ERY-H2O had pronounced effects on the community composition of bacteria related to N and P removal, leading to diversity loss and abundance change. The above observations indicated that resistant bacteria were selected upon exposure to ERY or ERY-H2O. Short-term batch experiments further proved the resistance and demonstrated that ammonium oxidation (56–95%) was inhibited more significantly than nitrite oxidation (18–61%) in the presence of ERY (100, 400, or 800 µg/L)


Which would set all sorts of alarm bells ringing for me, the only real crumb of comfort is that Archaea are likely to be the more <"important organisms for ammonia oxidation in aquarium biofilters"> and they are mainly antibiotic resistant.

Another issue is that it is actually illegal to buy, or use antibiotics, for this purpose in the UK.





Edvet said:


> Misuse of any antibiotic can lead to the creation of resistant bacteria in a facility. In an attempt to avoid this, some farms will rotate the antibiotics they use every few months or every year. However, the best solution is to positively identify the bacteria by running culture and sensitivity tests, and thereby avoid unnecessary, costly, and potentially harmful treatments.


@Edvet (who is a vet) is right, antibiotic resistance <"is a huge issue in both human and animal health"> & <"Charting risk of....">, and, if you look at countries, there is an almost perfect correlation between the degree of antibiotic resistance and the availability of antibiotics "over the counter", without prescription. 


 
cheers Darrel


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## Zeus. (13 Oct 2017)

Prof Lacey who I studied microbiology with was against the use of antibiotics 25yrs ago and it's only just catching now. Just another example how the chief advisors take their time in changing guidelines.

Sent from Mountolympus via neural interface


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## amritc1 (13 Oct 2017)

Thank you all so much,
So much reading and just trying to
Understand the natural way without too many algae killers.

Would like to take the route of some sort of deficiency or error on my part to resolve this issue.
Don’t want to nuke something that was caused by my mistake.

I’ve had a read about antibiotics and don’t think it’s a route I would take. I made the mistake of not providing the correct environment for what I have in my tank. 
I need too look and not listen but look again to see what the plants need.


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## dw1305 (14 Oct 2017)

Hi all, 
I'd probably try and syphon out as much as possible. You've given the filter a clean, and you have a pre-filter now, so hopefully it will go away as quickly as it arrived. 

cheers Darrel


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## ceg4048 (16 Oct 2017)

Hi,
    I cannot see clearly the photos in your post #2, but it appears to be BGA. 
BGA blooms are typically due to poor NO3.
This type of bloom may have been triggered before you left for holiday.

It can easily be resolved by regular addition of KNO3.

Cheers,


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## amritc1 (17 Oct 2017)

Cheers guys,
Did not get a chance to start the blackout this week, fingers crossed can find some time today.

@Darrel, thanks been vacuuming and brushing as much of it as I can.

@Clive, I have just started dosing Easy-Life Nitro at the moment only been a few days.
Instruction say "10 ml per 500 litres increases NO3 concentration by 2.0 ppm"  so I am adding about 20 ml per day. Does that sound about right? or is it that low.
Aqua One 1500R (405 litres) approx 350l wih Substrate

I have also reduced lighting to 2x59w T5's.


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## Fiske (12 Dec 2017)

I get tics everytime someone suggests using erythromycin against BGA. For exactly the reasons Darrel and Edvet stated. Please fix the underlying problem, instead of treating symptoms with antibiotics. My children and their children would very much like for those to work in the future too.
/rant mode off

Not wishing to start a ruckus, but yeah, I see this suggested WAY too much.


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## dukydaf (13 Dec 2017)

Bacterial antibiotic resistance genes can and will be lost from the population when no selective pressure is added. Just FYI, not that erythromycin treatment created resistance in ~30 years in BGA. Do you also worry about bacteria becoming resistant to H2o2? They can via catalase production. 

Anyway, now we are 2 moths in from the last post. How did the blackout go OP? How long? Did it work?


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## amritc1 (24 Apr 2018)

Hi  Dukydaf,

The issue with my tank has been fixed by doing the following:
So a massive Thank you for all contributing and the suggestions.
1. Blackout for 5 days
2. Reduce lighting
3. Increased CO2
4. Manually removed as much as algae as possible
5. And a heavy trim.
6. Started dosing El salts as per recommendation on the packets.

Within a few weeks I started seeing better plant growth and colour. Also just kept on top maintenance well until the last month where did not do a water change for 3 weeks. A bit of diatom but now back to the usual weekly water changes and keeping an eye on the dosing bottles and CO2.

This was a slow process but very rewarding in the end.

A quick pic - ignore the patch as I was trying to grow HC there which lifted out recently.




 

Thank you.
Amrit


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## Edvet (24 Apr 2018)




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## Fiske (25 Apr 2018)

dukydaf said:


> Bacterial antibiotic resistance genes can and will be lost from the population when no selective pressure is added.


Which is the reason for arguing NOT to misuse it for problems that don't warrant antibiotics. 


dukydaf said:


> Just FYI, not that erythromycin treatment created resistance in ~30 years in BGA.


Overuse and wrongful use of antibiotics, eg. erythromycin, has been linked with rising bacterial resistance for way more than 50 years. That BGA seems to be unaffected is hardly a cause for worry. Even then, it is still unneeded to solve a BGA problem with antibiotics, and falls clearly under wrongful use. Also please guarantee that the only organisms affected by wrongful use of antibiotics are BGA. Oh, you can't... 


dukydaf said:


> Do you also worry about bacteria becoming resistant to H2o2? They can via catalase production.



Not even gonna waste time on this.


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