# Confusion over EI and Water Changes



## Kam Sandhu (10 Sep 2014)

Hi all.

The time is almost here for me to attempt a low tech tank.

I am trying to get my head around EI dosing and water changes. I have read conflicting things.

I plan to plant heavy, so 80 - 85% of the substrate will be covered (attempt to carpet).

I have a Juwel Rio 180 and about 25/ 30 small fish (this can be increased if needed).

I am using eco complete as the substrate, so, do I need to use ferts? Or do the fish provide the nutrients for the plants? And are water changes still needed?


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## ian_m (10 Sep 2014)

Fish can provide nutrient for the plants BUT must keep the light level down to low levels. I ran for years with Juwel Vision 180 and its T8 tubes with no reflectors, firmly in low light category, changing water....when ever time allowed. Plants grew, slowly and no algae at all.

Increased light levels, makes the plants grow faster, they will then need fertiliser and CO2 and frequent water changes to get rid of the waste.

The chart below from http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=105774 is a rough handy guide to light level.


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## Kam Sandhu (10 Sep 2014)

Thanks for the info.

I have 2 x 54w T5 high lite bulbs. I was planning to keep them on for 6 hours a day. Would this be ok?


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## ian_m (10 Sep 2014)

These are definitely in the high light territory, guessing your tank, like mine is about 50cm deep.

If you want low tech, remove reflectors, raise the lights, put tape/foil on the tubes, put diffuser under the tubes, single tube (if possible) and say 3-4 hours a day and see what happens. May or may not require small doses of additional carbon (liquid carbon fine) and fertilisers. These are bright tubes.

If you want high tech, especially carpeting plants, then full light, reflectors, CO2 injection, 1800litre/hr flow rate, EI dosing and weekly water changes is way to go.


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## foxfish (10 Sep 2014)

No, that is far to much light for a low tech & probably too much for a high tech!


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## Kam Sandhu (10 Sep 2014)

Oh great.

I have no reflectors, just a bog standard setup.

I want to stick with low tech.

Whats the best course of action? 

The tank is 50cm deep and the light unit doesnt allow it to run on 1 light.

I dont mind reducing lights to 3/4 hours.


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## ian_m (10 Sep 2014)

Try 3-4 hours and see what happens, plants will grow slowly, but if you are planting so many plants you will need to supplement with carbon source and fertiliser.

My mate changed fro T8 to T5, plants went ballistic, consumed all the food, melted away and waste consumed by algae. Ended up with completely green algae filled tank as light level and time (10hours) was in high tech. So he covered tube, darkened plastic sheet under the lights and reduced lighting time, now adds small doses of liquid carbon and small doses of EI ferts (scrounged from me as cheaper than buying some) and plants grow and no algae.


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## Kam Sandhu (10 Sep 2014)

Sorry I made a mistake, I have 2 x 45w, does this make much difference.


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## ian_m (10 Sep 2014)

Yip still high light.


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## Kam Sandhu (10 Sep 2014)

Damn.

Right, so if I plant heavy, 3/4 hours of light. Do I need to dose ferts?

Looking on other forums it seems it is possible with the T5s


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## ian_m (10 Sep 2014)

It is perfectly possible with T5 (no reflectors) to grow healthy plants. Just keep on period short'ish (3/4 hours) and dose ferts, as if heavily planted fish waste won't be enough.


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## Kam Sandhu (10 Sep 2014)

Sounds like a plan to me. I will make a journal.


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## ian_m (10 Sep 2014)

Obviously you don't dose ferts & carbon in EI quantities, just have to try and see. My mate doses 1/4 dose liquid carbon and 1/4 dose of EI liquid and plants look fine (but not bright ) with his single T5


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## Kam Sandhu (10 Sep 2014)

ian_m said:


> Obviously you don't dose ferts & carbon in EI quantities, just have to try and see. My mate doses 1/4 dose liquid carbon and 1/4 dose of EI liquid and plants look fine (but not bright ) with his single T5



Great that has confused me. I bought a starter kit from plant food UK. Is that no good? 

Or do I just dose a smaller quantity than on the recipe sheet?


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## ian_m (10 Sep 2014)

Kam Sandhu said:


> Or do I just dose a smaller quantity than on the recipe sheet?


Yes. Remember you will need a carbon source.

The amount you need to dose unknown, just need to try and see as it depends on your light level and/or on times.

EI is all about not having to know how much the plants require, the original research proved that EI dosing and monsterous light levels (and CO2) the plants could take in any more. Thus EI doses more than the plants could ever use. To prevent excess build up (of ferts and plant waste) over time you change 50% water weekly.


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## Kam Sandhu (10 Sep 2014)

So basically go high tech?


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## ian_m (10 Sep 2014)

Kam Sandhu said:


> So basically go high tech?


Yes, high tech, if you want quick lush plant growth and can grow the more difficult types of plants and want bright lights.

Otherwise control your reduced light level and dose small amounts of carbon and ferts.

When things go wrong high tech, it happens very quickly, plants melt in a day, algae appears very quickly, almost daily. This is one of the reasons people struggle with high tech getting it right.

When things go wrong low tech (low light) it all happens a lot slower, maybe in week timescales.


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## Kam Sandhu (10 Sep 2014)

I don't want to go high tech. 

I think I'll start small. 

Will liquid carbon be ok?


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## Vinkenoog1977 (10 Sep 2014)

The EI started kit you bought is just fine, just dose 1/4 of the amount that is recommended in the packaging, and the same goes for liquid carbon; instead of 1 ml. per 50 ltr., dose 1 ml. per 200 ltrs. This will technically still be a high tech tank by the way, since you will be supplementing ferts and a form of carbon. This will also mean that you will have to do water changes at LEAST once every 2 weeks, around 30% minimum, to rid the water of the waste materials. The thing that is dictating that, is the amount of light you are injecting; more light for the plants, means they need more ferts and CO2 to use all that light to grow healthy; if ferts and CO2 are missing, algae WILL take over. 

The suggested light period of 4 hours is the absolute MINIMUM as far as duration is concerned, since the plants need at least 4 hours of light to get their photosynthesis going; I would rather suggest 6 hours of light. And if you do really want to go low tech, you will have to address the amount of light; this would mean decreasing the intensity of the lamps by around 30-50%, by the methods suggested earlier (diffusion films, et cetera).


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## ian_m (10 Sep 2014)

Kam Sandhu said:


> Will liquid carbon be ok?


Yes, absolutely fine.

My mate was dosing 1/4 amount (1ml for his 200l) every day he remembers to feed fish (doses ferts as well). Changes some water every couple of weeks. Again low tech so all happens slowly. His single T5 is 4 hours a day and has a sheet of darkened plastic in between light and tank.


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## Kam Sandhu (10 Sep 2014)

Vinkenoog1977 said:


> The EI started kit you bought is just fine, just dose 1/4 of the amount that is recommended in the packaging, and the same goes for liquid carbon; instead of 1 ml. per 50 ltr., dose 1 ml. per 200 ltrs. This will technically still be a high tech tank by the way, since you will be supplementing ferts and a form of carbon. This will also mean that you will have to do water changes at LEAST once every 2 weeks, around 30% minimum, to rid the water of the waste materials. The thing that is dictating that, is the amount of light you are injecting; more light for the plants, means they need more ferts and CO2 to use all that light to grow healthy; if ferts and CO2 are missing, algae WILL take over.
> 
> The suggested light period of 4 hours is the absolute MINIMUM as far as duration is concerned, since the plants need at least 4 hours of light to get their photosynthesis going; I would rather suggest 6 hours of light. And if you do really want to go low tech, you will have to address the amount of light; this would mean decreasing the intensity of the lamps by around 30-50%, by the methods suggested earlier (diffusion films, et cetera).


Thank you for that explanation.  

So, I didn't really want to go high tech. But I can deal with doing quarter doses of ferts and carbon. It seems it easier than dealing with the lights issue. 

I take it gas is better than liquid but involves a lot more work?



ian_m said:


> Yes, absolutely fine.
> 
> My mate was dosing 1/4 amount (1ml for his 200l) every day he remembers to feed fish (doses ferts as well). Changes some water every couple of weeks. Again low tech so all happens slowly. His single T5 is 4 hours a day and has a sheet of darkened plastic in between light and tank.


Sounds like a starting point. Thank you.


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## ian_m (10 Sep 2014)

Kam Sandhu said:


> I take it gas is better than liquid but involves a lot more work?


Yes gas is better in that you can get higher carbon levels into the tank and at quite low cost. Dosing at equivalent liquid carbon levels would possibly be fatal to fish and cost a fortune. (there are cheaper ways to liquid carbon, but not for beginners, search gluteraldehyde to see).

If going low tech (low light) liquid carbon doses are small, thus quite cheap. You could use CO2 gas to do the equivalent, but CO2 costs money for regulator etc and one 2Kg tank would last a year maybe.


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## Kam Sandhu (10 Sep 2014)

Gas sounds like it has the potential to go wrong fast. 

I think to start with I'll go with small doses of ferts and carbon. And I'll reassess in 6 or 8 months. 

Thank you all for the great advice. I would have done things very wrong.


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## Vinkenoog1977 (10 Sep 2014)

You could always go with a lower amount of CO2, for instance via the DIY route (yeast and sugar plus water), plenty of tutorials on Youtube. But I saw you had a Juwel tank, is that with the internal filter? If so, you can easily rig up something using the 02 Diffusor kit Juwel sell; if you push a cigarette filter into the end of the CO2-tube, and then attach that to the nozzle of the diffusor, and you stuff some coarse filter foam into the diffusor, you get quite small bubbles, and a good circulation through the tank (I use this on my Lido 120, and works a charm). If interested, I can explain what I've done to get this rigged up in some more detail, and if you use a low amount of CO2, plus lower light (6 hours), you are almost guaranteed algae free! And no need for (expensive) liquid carbon. With a 2 ltr. bottle, you can rig up a DIY CO2-system that will run quite consistently for around 3 weeks.

P.S.: You would still have to dose ferts of course, twice a week at half dose (with the BIO CO2; with EI, you can't really overdose and cause negative effects, it just dissapates (sic?)), and water changes 30-40% every two weeks. With only liquid carbon, I'd say 1/4 dose twice a week, of 1/2 dose once a week (instead of daily).


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## Kam Sandhu (11 Sep 2014)

Vinkenoog1977 said:


> You could always go with a lower amount of CO2, for instance via the DIY route (yeast and sugar plus water), plenty of tutorials on Youtube. But I saw you had a Juwel tank, is that with the internal filter? If so, you can easily rig up something using the 02 Diffusor kit Juwel sell; if you push a cigarette filter into the end of the CO2-tube, and then attach that to the nozzle of the diffusor, and you stuff some coarse filter foam into the diffusor, you get quite small bubbles, and a good circulation through the tank (I use this on my Lido 120, and works a charm). If interested, I can explain what I've done to get this rigged up in some more detail, and if you use a low amount of CO2, plus lower light (6 hours), you are almost guaranteed algae free! And no need for (expensive) liquid carbon. With a 2 ltr. bottle, you can rig up a DIY CO2-system that will run quite consistently for around 3 weeks.
> 
> P.S.: You would still have to dose ferts of course, twice a week at half dose (with the BIO CO2; with EI, you can't really overdose and cause negative effects, it just dissapates (sic?)), and water changes 30-40% every two weeks. With only liquid carbon, I'd say 1/4 dose twice a week, of 1/2 dose once a week (instead of daily).



Thanks for the great info, sounds like a possibility in the future.

I think for now, I want to keep it simple. I will stick to ferts + liquid carbon and water changes.

So......

1/4 carbon twice a week. 1/4 ferts everyday?

I dont mind doing water changes every week as I like to clean the filter wool.


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## Vinkenoog1977 (11 Sep 2014)

Start with that, and see how it goes!


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## Kam Sandhu (11 Sep 2014)

Vinkenoog1977 said:


> Start with that, and see how it goes!



Sounds good, thanks for all the input.

I start tomorrow and will make some sort of journal.

Really looking forward to this.

Just out of curiosity, why not dose carbon everyday?


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## Vinkenoog1977 (11 Sep 2014)

You could dose daily, however, due to the lowered amount of light, the plants won't need it, which would make it a total waste of money (which I why I suggested DIY CO2), plus, you would again be well on your way to high tech.


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## Kam Sandhu (11 Sep 2014)

Vinkenoog1977 said:


> You could dose daily, however, due to the lowered amount of light, the plants won't need it, which would make it a total waste of money (which I why I suggested DIY CO2), plus, you would again be well on your way to high tech.



Cool got it, so, after a few weeks or months I wanted to increase lighting to saw 8 hours, I would need to increase carbon.

I think, eventually, I will go for some sort of gas CO2, but for now, I just want to start of slow.


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## ian_m (11 Sep 2014)

Kam Sandhu said:


> Cool got it, so, after a few weeks or months I wanted to increase lighting to saw 8 hours, I would need to increase carbon.


Correct, you need to match the light level/duration to the amount of carbon and ferts your provide. Increase light, increase CO2 & ferts or else plants will die due to lack of food, rot away and feed the algae.

Increase light level beyond approximately 1-2Watts per US gallon and you are into high tech territory and will need CO2 and EI ferts levels to keep the plants satisfied.


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## Kam Sandhu (11 Sep 2014)

ian_m said:


> Correct, you need to match the light level/duration to the amount of carbon and ferts your provide. Increase light, increase CO2 & ferts or else plants will die due to lack of food, rot away and feed the algae.
> 
> Increase light level beyond approximately 1-2Watts per US gallon and you are into high tech territory and will need CO2 and EI ferts levels to keep the plants satisfied.



Perfect, I'll start off with daily ferts, 2 x carbon a week, 6 hours of lights for a month or so.

Great help, thank you all.


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## ian_m (11 Sep 2014)

Kam Sandhu said:


> I'll start off with daily ferts


Maybe not necessary, as I said my mate doses a couple of time a week, when he remembers to feed fish. Not an exact science, but as everything is growing slowly doesn't really matter.

Just remember to dose the macro ferts and micro ferts alternately and not at same time as they will interact if dosed together. Can be dosed at same time as liquid carbon.

Also the liquid carbon will dissipate within 24hours (reacts with stuff in the tank), this is why the bottle says dose daily, but in low light case, as long as dosed every couple of days you will be fine.


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## Kam Sandhu (11 Sep 2014)

ian_m said:


> Just remember to dose the macro ferts and micro ferts alternately and not at same time as they will interact if dosed together. Can be dosed at same time as liquid carbon.
> 
> Also the liquid carbon will dissipate within 24hours (reacts with stuff in the tank), this is why the bottle says dose daily, but in low light case, as long as dosed every couple of days you will be fine.



Great info again.

After a few months, if all goes well, I will consider a yeast reactor and move high tech (if all goes well).

I didnt like the idea of paying for a CO2 kit, but the yeast option looks doable.

But, one step at a time.


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## ian_m (11 Sep 2014)

Kam Sandhu said:


> I will consider a yeast reactor and move high tech (if all goes well).


Think very carefully before attempting high tech with yeast.....a forum search will put you off...

Issues are:
- Needs constant maintenance to keep fresh yeast reactors.
- Very prone to leaking as must be broken apart and fiddled with every couple of days when your change the yeast mixture.
- Produces variable CO2 levels. Variable CO2 levels produce plant issues and algae.
- Produces CO2 24/7. Issues at night when plants produce CO2 as well and can end up gassing fish during the night. (use nightly air stone or put solenoid on to vent CO2 at night).
- Produces more CO2 in summer than winter.
- Some people have had "expensive room decorating incidents" where yeast reactor has exploded in their lounge.
- Yeast mixture getting into tank will invariably kill the fish.

However....
- Its cheap.


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## EnderUK (11 Sep 2014)

A little guide on liquid carbon tanks.

Though I would problem skip the Excel you can get TNC carbon pretty cheap.


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## ian_m (11 Sep 2014)

Excellent article, well found.

I would agree with liquid carbon and egeris densa. I had loads doing really manic in my CO2 tank, when I first set it up, then used Excel to kill BBA growing on the wood and "liquefied" the egeris densa overnight.


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## Kam Sandhu (15 Sep 2014)

Right 
So I have my tank setup, plants in etc. 

Only been a few days and so far so good. Not much growth as expected. 

Doing some more reading and I have come across soda stream and paintball co2 systems, look simple and cheap to buy. 

This makes it extremely tempting. 

If I was to get one, what would I need to do different that I do now? Stop dosing excel, dose ferts everyday at full dosage, regular 50% water changes, anything else? 

Is it worth it?


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## EnderUK (15 Sep 2014)

depends on how much time and energy you want to put into your tank. There's a lot more that can go wrong the more equipment you put into a tank. You'll need to do full EI and regular water changes plus a lot more general care of the tank. If you have the time to put into it you'll get faster growth if you get everything right. Low tech, liquid CO2 and full CO2 all have their advantages and disadvantages. I suggest popping on to the barr report and and look into the Estimate Index and the non-co2 sections and read the stickies.


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## foxfish (15 Sep 2014)

EnderUK said:


> . I suggest popping on to the barr report and and look into the Estimate Index and the non-co2 sections and read the stickies.


 Don't we have that sort of information on this forum then?


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## Kam Sandhu (15 Sep 2014)

EnderUK said:


> depends on how much time and energy you want to put into your tank. There's a lot more that can go wrong the more equipment you put into a tank. You'll need to do full EI and regular water changes plus a lot more general care of the tank. If you have the time to put into it you'll get faster growth if you get everything right. Low tech, liquid CO2 and full CO2 all have their advantages and disadvantages. I suggest popping on to the barr report and and look into the Estimate Index and the non-co2 sections and read the stickies.



I do have the time for maintaining the tank. That's not an issue, I'm prepared to put the work in for a nice tank. 

I've already read about EI and I'm dosing at quarter measurements.  

I will have a look at Barr report tomorrow.


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## EnderUK (15 Sep 2014)

foxfish said:


> Don't we have that sort of information on this forum then?



Yes, kind of if you search for it. Tom goes into the benefits of each methods and though we have quite a lot on high tech I would say the Barr report has much more on low tech. A lot of the stuff on this forum is still based on the Barr report.

I would say both are really good references why limit yourself to one source of information.


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## Kam Sandhu (15 Sep 2014)

Just because I am trying to understand things. 

If I fully dosed excel and ferts the tank would be classed high tank and would cause plants to grow faster?


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## EnderUK (15 Sep 2014)

Generally speaking any form of CO2 be it liquid or gas will grow plants at a faster rate and required more advance methods (high tech) to prevent algae. You'll need more ferts, you'll need more flow and you'll need to do the big water changes.


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## Kam Sandhu (16 Sep 2014)

EnderUK said:


> Generally speaking any form of CO2 be it liquid or gas will grow plants at a faster rate and required more advance methods (high tech) to prevent algae. You'll need more ferts, you'll need more flow and you'll need to do the big water changes.



This big water changes and ferts is fine. I forgot about the big flow needed, currently I have 1000lph pump in my filter, would I need a new filter or would a power head be enough?

Also, I have noticed Eleocharis sp Mini leaves floating in my tank. There are not many on 2 or 3. I pick them out of the tank and then a few hours later there will be some more. Is this normal? Is it meant to shed its leaves? Or is there a problem in the tank?


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## ian_m (16 Sep 2014)

If your tank is 180litre then flow (filter + power head) needs to be at least 1800litre/hour. If you are using the Juwel internal filter, I suspect you will have flow issues in not being enough and not covering the whole width of the tank.

I have a Juwel Vision 180 with a Jbl1500e filter (1500lph), spray bar across the whole back of the tank as well as the Juwel internal 600lph filer AND a 3000lph power head. I got the power head as I was getting obvious signs of CO2 issues on the end of the tank opposite the filter. So now have power head, on a timer for a couple of hours (on at CO2 time off at 7pm as it hums a bit in the lounge) and the CO2 issue went away.


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## Kam Sandhu (16 Sep 2014)

ian_m said:


> If your tank is 180litre then flow (filter + power head) needs to be at least 1800litre/hour. If you are using the Juwel internal filter, I suspect you will have flow issues in not being enough and not covering the whole width of the tank.
> 
> I have a Juwel Vision 180 with a Jbl1500e filter (1500lph), spray bar across the whole back of the tank as well as the Juwel internal 600lph filer AND a 3000lph power head. I got the power head as I was getting obvious signs of CO2 issues on the end of the tank opposite the filter. So now have power head, on a timer for a couple of hours (on at CO2 time off at 7pm as it hums a bit in the lounge) and the CO2 issue went away.



Wow thats a lot of flow. I do have the bog standard internal filter + uprated power head.

Don't mind adding a power head for now, rather that than an external filter, I dont really have anywhere to put. Would the power head be best placed on the the opposite side to the internal filter?


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## ian_m (16 Sep 2014)

Kam Sandhu said:


> Wow thats a lot of flow.


That's because I wasn't getting sufficient flow in all the tank, the plants and drop checker told me so. I put a drop checker on left hand side of tank, at bottom and it hardly moved off blue (faded blue ?) compared to nice green elsewhere in the tank.

As you are running with liquid carbon and no so high tech as CO2, and hopefully done something to control light levels, such high flow might not be necessary, however some flow at least all over the tank is required or else plants will suffer. If your filter is on the right hand side like mine, you could try a power head on left hand back in conjunction with directing your filter output both pointing to the front of the tank, to see if you get a circulation pattern.

I did try experimenting making a spray bar across the back of the tank, for the Juwel filter output, using a piece of PVC tube (20/24 pvc tube I think £3, Ebay), but the flow was rubbish as I suspect the Juwel pump is designed to have an unrestricted output. Your experience with 1000lph may be better, worth an experiment.

Here is flow for my JBLe1501.


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## Kam Sandhu (16 Sep 2014)

ian_m said:


> That's because I wasn't getting sufficient flow in all the tank, the plants and drop checker told me so. I put a drop checker on left hand side of tank, at bottom and it hardly moved off blue (faded blue ?) compared to nice green elsewhere in the tank.
> 
> As you are running with liquid carbon and no so high tech as CO2, and hopefully done something to control light levels, such high flow might not be necessary, however some flow at least all over the tank is required or else plants will suffer. If your filter is on the right hand side like mine, you could try a power head on left hand back in conjunction with directing your filter output both pointing to the front of the tank, to see if you get a circulation pattern.
> 
> ...



Wow, some fantastic stuff there. I'm still learning as I go.

My concern is, I am trying to grow Eleocharis sp mini, I know this plant is a bit demanding on light and co2. 

I guess a good power head cant do any damage (can it??).

I am about to buy a *Hydor Koralia Evolution 3200 *

And with this (hopefully), if I ever decide to inject CO2, I will have good circulation.

Great info, I've learnt loads from here!! Massive thank you.


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## ian_m (16 Sep 2014)

I have a 3000lph from here.
http://www.allpondsolutions.co.uk/aquarium-1/aquarium-equipment/wavemakers.html


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## EnderUK (16 Sep 2014)

As long as there's places in the tank were fish can rest and you don't plan on having floating plants. Managing high flow tanks and floating plants is a nightmare. 

Sent from my Radar C110e using Tapatalk


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