# Plants turning white ?? What causing this



## candymancan

My 44g tank has been setup for about 2 months now..  All my plants are transplants from my 27g hexagon and 55g tank..  They all adjusted very well actually which im surprised..   The watersprite has near tripled in size and the Broad leafed anubias has already grown 3 new leaves, My wisteria has grown 5-6 inches..  The ones that started off rough were my Telanthara Reneki but it now has grown about an inch and the new growth is very pink/red.    My Green Combamba is growing deep roots and it too is growing well which is suprising usually this plant is a pain in the butt to get growing..


One plant though didn't take at all..  The Ludwigia just kept losing leaves and just basically died.. It did have new growth on it but they were very white looking... The Limnophila hippuroides.  Has grown about 3-4 inches on the big one I transplanted.. but the other 3 stems just died off however they sprouted new growth on the side's of the old stems..  They new growth the leaves are very white.. and same with the big one.. it may have grown a good 3-4 inches.. but the leaves aren't as big and they are nearly white...  Compared to the old growth which was very green and orange on top and purple/pink on the underside of the leaves..

  I don't dose ferts in this tank, its a discus tank..  I tried dosing flourish in the tank.. but doing so my discus acted negatively..  They started closing one gill and breathing out of only 1.. Another stared tipping up and spazing out spinning in circles in the tank..  So Im not dosing flourish anymore.  I do water changes about every 2-3 days.. Nearly 50-70%..  Nitrates are always between 10-20. KH is 4 drops on API test so about 65ppm, and GH is 8 drops on API kit so about 140ppm,  Phophates are 1.0ppm


The lights im using are a duel 65w Power Compact..  Brand new bulbs.  One is a 6700/6700k bulb.  The other is a bright pink plantgrow from catalina..  Ive never had plants turn white like this except when I had my lights off for a few days and also in my 5.5g betta tank..  I had watersprite in that tank and it turned very white..  That tank is using a bright pink bulb also..  So I am wondering if its this duel pink plantgrow from catalina..  Im debating on taking that bulb out and putting in a 6700/10k bulb for awhile to see if the plants react better.

Anyone know why some plants are doing good and others are turning white yet still growing..


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## kirk

Lack of the ferts, low ca.? or maybe the excel too.


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## drodgers

i would think the excel some plants cant absorb it.. looks like my riccia when the excel killed it


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## candymancan

Well i have been using a lot of excel to kill BBA that is growing on my plants. BUt i havr used excel before with these plants and never had an issue..

Since the plants in question are root feeders... Could i use root tabs and not affect my discus.. because last time i used flourish my discus acted like they were dying


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## Jose

Dose the right ammount of nutrients and stop excel for the sake of your discus.


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## candymancan

The discus dont seem bothered by excel.. its the ferts that bother them not excel


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## Jose

Oh I see. Change your ferts to something that you know what its made out of. Ideally you should dose dry salts kind of ferts. Florish fert seem very likely to contain ammonia as a source of nitrogen. Ammonia is poisonous ad your discus might be sensing it even though in very low doses.


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## Tim Harrison

Chlorosis... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorosis


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## candymancan

So it isn't the pink light then right ?  Because It does this in my 5.5g as I said with the pink light also.

Seems to be a lack of iron I guess.  Ok I have some seachem iron I put a full dose in the tank.. the discus don't seem to be bothered by this like they are flourish..  Hopefully this helps my plants.

Do you think I should get some root tabs though ?  The plants mainly in questions have a big root system and the tank is only 2 months old using gravel so there isn't anything in the gravel as far as fish poo and food goes


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## Tim Harrison

It certainly won't hurt, but perhaps you should also give some thought to dosing fertz. Check out Estimative Index, which is a eutrophic method of fertz dosing that works very well and shouldn't harm your discus. If your tank is low-energy (no CO2 injection) then use 1/10 - 1/5 dose, once a week or so.


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## candymancan

My tank doesn't dose CO2 but my lighting is pretty high actually.

I just put in some iron 2 days ago and I noticed all the white plants are turning green again..  So I must have been low on iron I guess


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## Jose

Troi said:


> It certainly won't hurt, but perhaps you should also give some thought to dosing fertz. Check out Estimative Index, which is a eutrophic method of fertz dosing that works very well and shouldn't harm your discus. If your tank is low-energy (no CO2 injection) then use 1/10 - 1/5 dose, once a week or so.



Plus 1.


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## PARAGUAY

Liquid carbon can have a poor effect on true aquatic stem plants, As your set up is low tech, no CO2 I would just add Tropica Premium or Profito increase dosage if needed, I had good results from these.Ludwigia can drop bottom leaves and have healthy tops, but what you decribe sounds like nutrient shortage more than anything else.


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## candymancan

It wasn't the liquid carbon..  Im still overdosing it in the tank 4 capfuls to kill this black beard algae..  Ever since I put in 1 dose of Iron the plants are now purple/green..  Ill take a picture tomorrow as its night and I don't want to spook my discus.   It deff was lack of iron in the tank I apritiate your help guys I was worried with my plants turning white.. now they are looking very healthy 

Sadly though my pink plant grow bulb  like blew up yesterday.. no idea but its pisses me off that was a 25$ bulb ive had for only 1 month from catalina so im calling that company tomorrow


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## Jose

candymancan said:


> Ever since I put in 1 dose of Iron the plants are now purple/green.. Ill take a picture tomorrow as its night and I don't want to spook my discus. It deff was lack of iron in the tank I apritiate your help guys I was worried with my plants turning white.. now they are looking very healthy



Youll might run into another deficiency/algae very soon unless you add all nutrients the plants need.

Becareful with the excel. I wouldnt go too much above the recommended dose, specially for discus. Its like playing with a red hot piece of iron.


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## Frenchi

I'm no expert but I near on stopped using exel as it was having adverse affects on my tank too... I use it now on very rare occasions and just for spot treating anubius leafs via syringe , that's it! 
It seemed to be killing certain  plants.. Go with the Ei dosing it was the best info I listened to on here, I tried everything, wasted lots of money until the Ei.. From there on ive had mostly success.. All thanks to the guys on here


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## Jose

Frenchi said:


> I'm no expert but I near on stopped using exel as it was having adverse affects on my tank too... I use it now on very rare occasions and just for spot treating anubius leafs via syringe , that's it!
> It seemed to be killing certain plants.. Go with the Ei dosing it was the best info I listened to on here, I tried everything, wasted lots of money until the Ei.. From there on ive had mostly success.. All thanks to the guys on here



I agree. Id say EI is the best thing that was done for the hobby ever. Or to maybe its fairer to say:finding out excess nutrients does not cause algae.
Excel normally has negative effects when its not used as per instructions. It wasnt designed as an algaecide I believe, but as a carbon supplement. Killing algae is a side effect. I never use it to kill algae. Ive only used peroxide. Excel can be used but along with its risks.


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## candymancan

what is EI dosing anyway ? All I have is flourish, iron, and API leafzone  all 3 work great in my 27g hexagon..  I have ZERO algae in that tank.. except a little bit of green spot algae but then I have green spot in all my tanks I never found a way to stop it.  But my plants flourishing in that tank..

I stropped using the excel in my discus tank like 3 days ago, it killed the black hair algae and that's all I wanted it for.   My damn plant grow power compact bulb blew up in the fixture the other day.. no idea why... I have had it for a month catalina brand and that company isn't returning my calls. kinda ticked off..

Question, how do you guys get to 0 nitrates or keep nitrates low beside the obvious water changes.. I see people have to dose nitrogen in their tanks to keep it at 10...  Ever since I got into plants like 3 years ago I have never seen a difference in my nitrate levels..  and my tanks are so heavily planted I cant fit anything else in them.. and my discus tank has a TON of watersprite which is a fast grower.  Maybe they are reducing nitrates a little and I just don't know but I dunno lol I always wanted a tank where I never had to do water changes


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## Jose

candyman, if what you do is working for you then dont change a thing thats my philosophy but, it wont heart to learn about Tom Barrs EI dosing just in case you run into problems like the spot algae that you have. Spot algae is normally a low phosphates issue (or low CO2 in a high tech), so in your tank this is probably the limitting nutrient and its whats limitting your plant growth. I would advise you to read a lot more on the basics and then come back to ask some questions.
Here are some useful links as intro:
http://www.sudeepmandal.com/hobbies/planted-aquarium/guide-low-tech-excel-planted-tank/

http://www.ukaps.org/index.php?page=dosing-with-dry-salts

Happy reading!


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## dw1305

Hi all,
The real "problem" with NO3 is that none of us really know how much we have in the tank water. It is quite problematic to measure, even with lab. scale equipment. If you record 10ppm NO3 on your test kit, you know you have some nitrates, but you really don't know whether that is 10ppm, 20ppm or even 100ppm. 

If you want to demonstrate this take a water sample, test it for NO3, and then add some salt (NaCl) or "Epsom Salts" (MgSO4.7H2O) to the water and test it again. You haven't added any more NO3, but you have added other anions (SO4-- & Cl-) and I would be surprised if you get the same result.

One thing that this forum has shown pretty clearly is that high levels of NO3 aren't toxic to fish, when they result from the addition of a fertiliser like KNO3, rather than being the "_smoking gun_" from high NH3 and NO2 levels.

Many people use EI with good results, but because I'm not interested in fast plant growth, or aquascaping,  I use plant health as an index of the nutrient status of the tank. 

If we can discount CO2 availability, plants need at least 10x more N and K than the other elements (including phosphorus (P)) and they are by far the most likely elements to be limiting for plant growth.

My method consists of monitoring the growth and colour of a floating plant, originally it was Duckweed (_Lemna_), hence the <"duckweed index">, but now I use Amazon Frogbit (_Limnobium laevigatum_) which is more tolerant of more acidic, nutrient poor water. 

All the time the floating plants are a healthy green and in growth I don't add any nutrients, once growth slows, or the plants become very light green, I add KNO3. If they don't green up pretty rapidly I then feed them with a complete fertiliser.

So far the complete fertiliser has always done the job, and then it is back to monitoring "duckweed health". 

I carry out regular small volume water changes (with rain-water), and that is it.

cheers Darrel


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## Jose

dw1305 said:


> The real "problem" with NO3 is that none of us really know how much we have in the tank water. It is quite problematic to measure, even with lab. scale equipment. If you record 10ppm NO3 on your test kit, you know you have some nitrates, but you really don't know whether that is 10ppm, 20ppm or even 100ppm.
> If you want to demonstrate this take a water sample, test it for NO3, and then add some salt (NaCl) or "Epsom Salts" (MgSO4.7H2O) to the water and test it again. You haven't added any more NO3, but you have added other anions (SO4-- & Cl-) and I would be surprised if you get the same result.
> One thing that this forum has shown pretty clearly is that high levels of NO3 aren't toxic to fish, when they result from the addition of a fertiliser like KNO3, rather than being the "smoking gun" from high NH3 and NO2 levels.
> Many people use EI with good results, but because I'm not interested in fast plant growth, or aquascaping, I use plant health as an index of the nutrient status of the tank.
> If we can discount CO2 availability, plants need at least 10x more N and K than the other elements (including phosphorus (P)) and they are by far the most likely elements to be limiting for plant growth.
> My method consists of monitoring the growth and colour of a floating plant, originally it was Duckweed (Lemna), hence the <"duckweed index">, but now I use Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum) which is more tolerant of more acidic, nutrient poor water.
> All the time the floating plants are a healthy green and in growth I don't add any nutrients, once growth slows, or the plants become very light green, I add KNO3. If they don't green up pretty rapidly I then feed them with a complete fertiliser.
> So far the complete fertiliser has always done the job, and then it is back to monitoring "duckweed health".
> I carry out regular small volume water changes (with rain-water), and that is it.



Yes I agree with you Darrel. It depends on each persons goals. But (there is always a but), isnt it possible to grow a bigger number of plants if we dont let nutrients bottom up? For example when I let nutrients get near 0ppm levels I normally get crypt melt, as well as for some other plants. This is what Tom Barr recommends with his low tech method. Do you get any melting? Do you use substrates?

Another thing I wanted to know is: Do plants grow faster at 30ppm Nitrates compared to say 5ppm, with the rest of parametres being non limitting?

Thanks in advance.


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## dw1305

Hi all,





Jose said:


> But (there is always a but), isnt it possible to grow a bigger number of plants if we dont let nutrients bottom up? For example when I let nutrients get near 0ppm levels I normally get crypt melt, as well as for some other plants. This is what Tom Barr recommends with his low tech method. Do you get any melting? Do you use substrates?


Some plants won't grow low tech., but those that will I've found that PAR will eventually limit plant biomass, rather than nutrient availability.  

I don't tend to get _Cryptocoryne_ melt, but all the_ Cryptocoryne_ spp. I have (probably just _C. wendtii, C. x willisii _and_ C. ponterderifolia_) have been submersed for the last ~5 years. 

I use silica sand with a small amount (~5%) leaf litter and clay, but I don't vacuum, or disturb, the substrate once the tanks are planted, so they will have accumulations of mulm, anaerobic zones etc. 





Jose said:


> Another thing I wanted to know is: Do plants grow faster at 30ppm Nitrates compared to say 5ppm, with the rest of parametres being non limitting?


 Yes, nearly all plants show a linear growth response to nitrates, how steep the gradient is, and how long the before the slope flattens out, will depend upon the plant, but I would think all plants will show greater growth at 30ppm NO3 than they did at 10ppm.   

cheers Darrel


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## Jose

Thanks so much Darrel.
Have you got any info on plant uptake vs nutrient concentration? I had a look and couldnt find much, just the minimum amounts for some plants like lemna.



dw1305 said:


> I use silica sand with a small amount (~5%) leaf litter and clay, but I don't vacuum, or disturb, the substrate once the tanks are planted, so they will have accumulations of mulm, anaerobic zones etc.



This added to the fact that you perform small water changes possibly explains that you never run out of macros for long because there is always a source of ammonia/nitrates, phosphates etc.


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## candymancan

Well my phosphates are 1.0 in all my tanks..  Never really seen it higher then that.. my city water is around 1-2 as well.  So im not sure what is low but it isn't like im at .25ppm..

I don't vacuum any of my fish tanks except maybe once a month or one every 2 months..  My tanks are usually at 20-40ppm before I do a big water change every say 2 weeks and I never have any fish die..  However the tank with my electric blue rams (the 27g hexagon I mentioned that I dose ferts in) I change the water every week to keep them at or below 20 bvut I rarely if ever vacuum the gravel and im using floramax substrate in it..  My discus tank I vacuum every 2 days and change 50% or more with the gravel vac..  Nitrates are always light orange around 10-20ppm..  I have been thinking of getting a 10 or 20g tank and putting it under the discus tank and turn it into a type of wet dry filter.. except using the 10-20g water volume as a way to dilute nitrates even more..  If I do that my tank will have an effective 80g of water volume


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