# Ammonite jungle retreat.



## Rich Jackson (28 May 2013)

I thought I would start something on here to show my progress.
Im sure I will have many questions along the way but an intro to start.

I have a 90 x 60 x 60 marine reef setup at the minute which I am in the process of changing over to freshwater after 14 years. My stock is going to a LFS (Clearwater Aquatics) and I have a nice big blank canvas to start again!

I plan on keeping my sump but will change to mechanical filtration with filter mats and sintered glass, I think.....
I have a 150w halide which I plan on changing to LED but will start with my light to start just a bit higher than the 10cm above the water it is now!!
The tank has a blue background which I plan on changing to a frosted white, only issue is weir is blue and cannot change it so don't know whether to take weir out or get it remade clear. Any help?
If I take it out I will keep standpipes but change for white pipe.
I am struggling with a few issues of fresh water as in running with TDS of 150!!!!!! My waste water a t the moment is lower than that!
50% water changes weekly!! REALLY this much I do 25% monthly at the mo so 200ltrs a week is MASSIVE!! so why do I need the big changes??
use of RO water. It seems that it isn't used? So seeing as I have an RO unit can I still use the Carbon filter 5 micron and DI sections to polish the water? and if so do I need to de-chlorinate every water change? 
Do I need a UV on freshwater systems? 
Any help and advice will be gratefully received!!

I have an idea of scaping and stocking but I am sure that will change as I go on!!
I have been looking at some of the set ups on here and I am in awe and hope I can produce something a tenth as good!!!

Cheers for now Rich.


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## Matt Warner (29 May 2013)

50% water change is only necessary in a CO2 injected tank with very fast growth rates. Another thing you might find alarming is that we add copious amounts of nitrate and phosphate to feed the plants, marine is the total opposite as any nitrate or phosphate is considered bad.


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## ceg4048 (29 May 2013)

Rich Jackson said:


> I am struggling with a few issues of fresh water as in running with TDS of 150!!!!!! My waste water a t the moment is lower than that! 50% water changes weekly!! REALLY this much I do 25% monthly at the mo so 200ltrs a week is MASSIVE!! so why do I need the big changes??


As mentioned by Matt, this is only relevant to CO2 enriched tanks, whether enriched by gas injection or by liquid carbon daily dosing. Aquatic plants fed with high levels of Carbon grow faster and produce high levels of organic waste, which result in ammonia production and Oxygen consumption. The waste also smothers the surface of the plant leaves and is an additional impediment to CO2 and nutrient absorption, which reduces the health of the plants and can trigger algal blooms.

As a reefer I'm sure you would be aware of these issues which pose an identical threat to marine life. In marine systems there are all kinds of fancy equipment to remove toxins, such as skimmers, ozone injectors and so forth, but none of these devices work in fresh water. So the only way to rid the tank of pollutants is to replace the water. If you do not intend to inject CO2 then the situation is very different and there is no need for such manic water changes schedules. If you do enrich CO2 the water change requirements can be mitigated somewhat by a reduction in the lighting, which reduces the metabolic rate of the plants, resulting in reduced organic pollutant ejection into the water column.

TDS is not particularly relevant to plants unless you intend to grow a handful of very specialized plants such as Tonina.

Freshwater systems do not require UV treatment but it also is not a problem if used. The carbon section can still be used as you wish.

Cheers,


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## roadmaster (29 May 2013)

Might consider raising the 150w metal halide a bit higher than 10cm if starting with plant's before LED fixture is utilized .
Can alway's lower the light once plant's have adapted from emmersed growth to submerged, and unless starting with CO2 injection,,the Metal halide might prove too much light to prevent algae (lot's of it).
Just my two pennies.


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## Rich Jackson (29 May 2013)

Yes I'm planning on lifting the light up. It runs that low on my marine tank but realize it needs to raised for new setup. Only planning on using it short term un til I source a LED light. 
I'm planning on using RO unit without the RO section  
I intend to use CO2 injection but maybe not at really high rates as dont fancy 200 ltr water changes!  could I not have a constant top up from my RO unit into the tank and then do smaller water changes? I have auto top up at the moment so wondering if it would still be useful.....
Just trying to get as much info as possible before I 'flood'  my tank....


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## foxfish (29 May 2013)

You can do smaller & more regular water changes, you could use a small power head connected to air line that can take the water to a drain & set on a timer to remove 10% daily & allow the auto top up to replace the water.


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## Rich Jackson (30 May 2013)

foxfish said:


> You can do smaller & more regular water changes, you could use a small power head connected to air line that can take the water to a drain & set on a timer to remove 10% daily & allow the auto top up to replace the water.


 

Thanks thats the type of thing I was thinking. I am looking at a way of doing continuous water changes via auto top-up and gravity waste.


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## Iain Sutherland (30 May 2013)

Hey rich, welcome to the forum.  I was thinking of a similar situation with constant ro water change or daily smaller changes but the consensus was that you will still need a good sized weekly change to stir everything up and remove waste from the tank.  That being the case i realised that in order to actually give a larger tank a really good clean that the best part of 50% gets vacuumed out anyway.  Sadly it seems there really isnt much of a short cut to good maintenance.
Personally i dont mind WC's  once a week its the daily 50% changes during the first couple of weeks that suck!!  Well worth figuring out a system in advance... i use a massively over powered pump to drain 50% in 30 seconds after stirring it all up then another pump to refill from an RO waterbutt cut with some tap.  A lot depends on your house layout as to how easy it is.
Have a look here 
DIY Water Changer, No more buckets!! | Page 5 | UK Aquatic Plant Society

best of luck an ill look forward to the progress.


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## Rich Jackson (30 May 2013)

yes I think the big water changes are still necessary. I am planning on teeing off my sump return line so I can just dump water to drain. My tank is near an outside wall so planning on going straight through the wall to the drain outside. Then just let the auto top-up fill it back up.? Regards stirring the sand/gravel up I presume that is to remove any detritus that has settled on it? could I not just stir it up and allow the filter sock to catch the bits as they go through? I have a 5 micron sock on the sump inlet so would catch pretty much all of it.


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## Iain Sutherland (30 May 2013)

to be honest i dont know if the sock solution would work richard as ive never run a sump or tank maintenance in this way.  However when i WC on a weekly basis i get my arms in the tank, vacuum as much of the substrate and/or sand as i can then remove the vacuum, add a inlet basket to the hose then get into the plant mass agitating it as much as possible removing any muck as i go.  I cant help but feel if you stir up and leave the pumps to do the work a lot will settle before its removed... but that just a feeling.


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## foxfish (30 May 2013)

There are folk who believe a single large water change carried out just as the lights come on has a beneficial effect on the whole plant growing operation!
Exposing plants to the air & unlimited C02, plus the fact that mains water contains C02 (not many folk use RO) is said to benefit the plants as well as the more obvious benefits of clean water!
However, I don't follow this path but rely on daily small changes & as you suggest ... very efficient filtration.
All the same, I have plenty of spare time for daily maintenance & to be honest the 50% method is so well tried & tested one would have to consider following that path.


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## Rich Jackson (4 Jun 2013)

Quick update. research research research!! I think my brain has turned to guu. u am currently looking into lighting, have found a lovely LED unit that I am investigating. one question why are they all aimed for marine and need to have blues in them!!! 
any hoo the rest of my marine stock goes tomorrow so will have a blank canvas....
so now reading planning reading planning. so much information to take in......


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## dw1305 (5 Jun 2013)

Hi all,


foxfish said:


> However, I don't follow this path but rely on daily small changes & as you suggest ... very efficient filtration.


I do daily small water changes as well. All my tanks are low tech. and nutrient depleted: <water quality prior to going into aquarium | UK Aquatic Plant Society>.

cheers Darrel


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## Rich Jackson (6 Jun 2013)

Well I am no longer salty!!!
Last week i had this....



And now....


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## Rich Jackson (11 Jun 2013)

an appalling phone photo I know but I have wood!


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## Rich Jackson (17 Jun 2013)

after reading reading and more reading! then staring at my empty tank I now think I have a basic idea of what I want to do. 

couple of questions,  well one really. can I use any of the following safely in my set-up?













I am in the process of painting my stand at the moment and will get some pictures up as soon as I can.


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## dw1305 (17 Jun 2013)

Hi all,
I probably wouldn't use the "peat free" compost. There are 4 potential problems with it, which really relate to it having a lot of composted garden "green waste" in it. 

The first is that it contains a lot of soluble nutrients from the composted lawn cuttings etc. the second is that these will considerably raise the conductivity and pH (all the soluble salts again)  and third it won't be fully decomposed, so it will carry on composting, the last is that the nutrient are likely to be unbalanced, with some composts have huge amounts of potassium, but little phosphorus etc. <Faulty compost scuppers tomato trials | Login | Horticulture Week>.

Of the other 2 Growmore is OK, the sand may be a bit fine and  possibly limy.

cheers Darrel


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## Andy Thurston (17 Jun 2013)

If your planning on having a dirt substrate this will help

The Soil Substrate Planted Tank - A How to Guide | UK Aquatic Plant Society


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## Rich Jackson (18 Jun 2013)

a little more work done and my new LED light unit arrived today!

I have gone for a cheap Beamworks one to see how it goes for now my change in the future. 

a couple of pictures of it.


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## BigTom (18 Jun 2013)

Looks good, really nice pieces of wood there.


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## Rich Jackson (18 Jun 2013)

Thanks, they were quite cheap from what else I've seen around


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## foxfish (19 Jun 2013)

Hi Richard, I have the impression you are going to try a low tech set up?


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## Rich Jackson (19 Jun 2013)

I am not completely sure as to what type of setup yet. why do you ask?
I like the idea of the hybrid setup but haven't fully decided.


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## foxfish (19 Jun 2013)

I ask because your sump wont be at all suitable for a low tech as there is so little Co2 available in a low tech, what there would be, will in fact be gassed off down the overflow LOL
In my opinion, if you are going high tech, then you would really benefit from a better substrate like ADA.
I noticed you posted on our friend with the 5' tank & sumps thread... did you note he uses 7kg of gas every 8 weeks!!!

I think you need to make a decision which way to turn....

If it helps you - I would say to expect very slow growth from a low tech (painfully slow from my personal experience) & if you choose high tech just be prepared for the amount of C02 required to run your sump.
I am not trying to put you off either method just making sure you are ready for the contrasting choice!


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## Rich Jackson (19 Jun 2013)

thanks for the quick reply! 
yes had noticed amount of CO2!  
I'm am in no rush at all with this tank so all feedback and help is gratefully received! 

it's all a new learning curve for me from what I was used to with marines.


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## dw1305 (20 Jun 2013)

Hi all,


foxfish said:


> I ask because your sump wont be at all suitable for a low tech as there is so little Co2 available in a low tech, what there would be, will in fact be gassed off down the overflow


This isn't necessarily true, trickle filters are very efficient at gas exchange, which when you are low tech. is actually an advantage. If you don't add CO2, normally during the photo-period the water will have very low levels of CO2, because it is continually depleted by photosynthesis. The water will be fully saturated with oxygen via the same process. If you have a large gas exchange surface that CO2 depleted water will re-equilibrate with atmospheric levels of CO2 more quickly and CO2 is a relatively soluble gas .

At night you would normally get a build-up of CO2 (and depletion of dissolved oxygen) when  all of the biomass is respiring. In a trickle filter this effect is less marked, again due to the large gas exchange surface.

You can measure the changes in pH. In situations with a wide variation in CO2 and O2 ratios you will get a lot of variation in pH, where levels are more stable these changes are reduced. The actual variation in values will depend upon the carbonate buffering of the water.

cheers Darrel


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## BigTom (20 Jun 2013)

I also am not convinced by the argument for minimising gaseous exchange in low tech setups. As Darrel points out, with a sump, trickle filter or as in my case a large, shallow tank with high surface area to volume ratio, dissolved co2 should remain relatively stable, which I can only see as a good thing.

It also means you don't need to be scared about water changes, as some low tech people are, as any swings in CO2 from fresh water should quickly revert to equilibrium.


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## foxfish (20 Jun 2013)

OK then I am obviously wrong so get going with them water changes & overflows & trickle filters & let me now how it goes!


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## BigTom (20 Jun 2013)

foxfish said:


> OK then I am obviously wrong so get going with them water changes & overflows & trickle filters & let me now how it goes!


 

Hah, I don't know about 'obviously wrong'. Until someone does some proper experiments we're all just largely going off supposition, hunches and gut feeling anyway. For what it's worth, I've got tanks with lots of surface movement as I described, and others which are pretty much stagnant. They all have lots of healthy plants and barely a speck of algae, so its not like taking one approach over the other will condemn you instantly to failure. Sensible light levels, appropriate choice of plants and good starting plant biomass are probably more important.


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## Rich Jackson (31 Oct 2013)

Well I have made a bit more progress all be it slowly...




Still a way to go



Water testing the sump. Complete with auto topup and trickle tower!!


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## Rich Jackson (1 Nov 2013)

Wet testing sump. Can I leave this running to kick start bacteria in the media before I fill my tank?


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## Rich Jackson (1 Nov 2013)

The reason for the name change is because of a couple of the stones in my setup








And a couple of the whole lot.


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## Little-AL (1 Nov 2013)

Should look nice all planted up! What are your plans for plants?

Yes, running the sump will enable you to start maturing the media if you pipe the return to the first chamber. Just be wary of a fluctuation in params when you bring the main tank online - it'll be like having a MASSIVE water change on that so may not do the cycle much good.


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## Rich Jackson (1 Nov 2013)




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## foxfish (1 Nov 2013)

Looks good, is that trickle filter noisy though?


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## Rich Jackson (1 Nov 2013)

No not a sound from it!! It surprised me that it is silent.


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## Rich Jackson (1 Nov 2013)

This is my starting point for plants. Although I am tempted in trying a DSM for moss. 

Anubias spp.
Aponogeton natans/crispus
Bolbitis heudelotii
Ceratopteris spp.
Cryptocoryne spp.
Echinodorus spp. inc tenellus
Egeria densa
Fontinalis antipyretica
Hygrophilia spp.
Lilaeopsis brasiliensis/novae-zelandiae
Ludwigia repens/natans
Microsorium pteropus. var.
Pistia stratiotes
Salvinia auriculata
Sagittaria spp.
Vallisneria spp.
Vesicularia dubyana
I've added some more stones around the base of the wood to blend them in a bit more.


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## Rich Jackson (11 Nov 2013)

Trying to add images but don't seem to want to go on?!


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## Rich Jackson (11 Nov 2013)

It's starting to resemble a fish tank!









A few more plants needed yet though.


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## Rich Jackson (15 Nov 2013)

Now that my tank is getting there I am now onto livestock options. 

Questions. What are stocking limit guidelines and if I put tetras and gouramis in can I still have shrimp?!


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## Rich Jackson (22 Nov 2013)

I have fish!!! We'll 12 to start with. Zebra danios. They are fun watching dart in and around the tank. Nice to see movement in it. A few more over the next few months plus some neon rainbows ottos and corys I think.


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## Rich Jackson (24 Nov 2013)




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## Rich Jackson (24 Nov 2013)

How do I upload video on here from photobucket without showing all my albums?


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## Rich Jackson (24 Nov 2013)




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## Rich Jackson (25 Nov 2013)

Rich Jackson said:


> How do I upload video on here from photobucket without showing all my albums?


Sorted!! Upload from youtube!


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## Rich Jackson (25 Nov 2013)

So I fancy going for Asian specific fish. What's the Asian alternative of a Cory? Anyone had any experience with dwarf loaches?


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## Rich Jackson (26 Nov 2013)

Don't know how it made it past a fish net on the weir a shut off tap half open and a trickle bed but that's a zebra danio in my sump!


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## James D (26 Nov 2013)

Looks nice Rich!


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## Rich Jackson (4 Dec 2013)

I have a couple of bits of my wood that stick out of the water and was wondering?. Would anubias grow with its roots around the wood but it's leaves fully out the water? If not any other plant that would thrive in this position? No soil just wood and fully exposed leaves?


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## Rich Jackson (9 Dec 2013)

Hi all,
Rich Jackson said: ↑
What sort of lights plants and size of refugium is needed?​You don't need a very big tank for the refugium, I would imagine that 60 litres would do for even a really big tank, and probably ~ 10 litres is enough for a 60 litre tank. I would just use any waterproof container that you have to jhand, that fits in the space you've got.

I'd probably use _Cabomba caroliniana _as my plant, <Measuring Photosynthesis with Cabomba - National STEM Centre>, but I would imagine that any rapidly growing stem plant would do, and other species may well be better in harder water (_Ceratophyllum or_ _Egeria?_).

Then all you need to do is have a reversed lighting regime, the plants should get plenty of dissolved CO2 from the (now dark) tank and they should evolve enough oxygen to keep the main tank pretty fully oxygenated. I wouldn't worry too much about having greater light intensity than you would for the tank, although this is going to depend upon the nutrient status of the water. If you use EI, you could get away with a long light period as neither CO2 or nutrients would be limiting. I'd be tempted to add some _Asellus_or Cherry Shrimps to the refugium. 

I always have my tanks on a 12 hour day, so I'd have the refugium light on for the other 12 hours. We used to run the veg. filters in the lab under 24 hour daylight, but they were dealing with leachate with a high BOD, and the plants were emergent etc.

Any particular reason for a refugium? "Wet and Dry" trickle filters are a lot less work.

cheers Darrel​ 

I thought I would move this into here. I was curious about refugium as it was the main filtration source on my marine tank. I have a trickle tower and ceramic media but was just wondering if a refugium would be of any benefit.


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## foxfish (9 Dec 2013)

I thought refugiums were used to remove nitrate & other unwanted chemical that are not wanted in a marine tank or found in the sea?
They are also used on koi ponds (vegetable fitters) to help remove nutrients that supposedly feed blanket weed but our planted tanks require feeding in these nutrients not removing them?


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## Rich Jackson (18 Dec 2013)

I must be doing something right I guess!


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## faizal (22 Jan 2014)

Rich Jackson said:


> I must be doing something right I guess!


 
Hi Rich Any updates so far on the tank. Would love to see some new pictures please.


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## Rich Jackson (22 Jan 2014)




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## Ady34 (23 Jan 2014)

Looks great, really well executed and I like the point source lighting, gives the fish options and works well with the central island style layout.


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## Rich Jackson (23 Jan 2014)

It's starting to fill put nicely now. Just want some tall plants at the back that tolerate very low light levels. Not heavily  stocked with 6 dwarf rainbows 2 blue rainbows some zebra danios which keep ending up in the sump, 6 corys  and 3 sae's.


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## tim (3 Jun 2014)

How's this one progressing Rich ?


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## Rich Jackson (4 Jun 2014)

It's going Ok. Don't really do anything with it.
I'll get some pics up later.


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## Rich Jackson (4 Jun 2014)




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## Rich Jackson (4 Jun 2014)

No additives no ferts just fish food.


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## tim (4 Jun 2014)

It's looking well, nice to see an update.


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## Rich Jackson (20 Dec 2014)

Been a long time with an update. Tank still going Ok. 
I will be shutting it down in the new year though. The pull of going back to a marine reef has the better of me.


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## Rich Jackson (22 Dec 2014)

Moved my tank into my lounge. So giving it another lease of life. 












Wrapped the cabinet black so it matches the room. Pretty happy with the rescape just need some more fish..


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## Rich Jackson (19 Jan 2015)

Got some nice new fish today so tank looking great. Put some lemon tetras in.


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## Rich Jackson (19 Jan 2015)

Ammorite jungle retreat:


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## Rich Jackson (19 Jan 2015)

Bit of a shakey hand held job...


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## kirk (19 Jan 2015)

Best place for a tank the lounge. I imagine not every other half would agree with that. When east enders is on or any other depressing rubbish which other half watches,it's a 90 degree turn to my right and I'm in a happy place.


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## Greenfinger2 (21 Jan 2015)

Hi Rich, Great looking Scape Nice fish to


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## Rich Jackson (21 Jan 2015)

Thanks. Just need a few broad leaf plants at the back to fill it out a bit I think.  Definitely better now it has more fish in. Will try and get a better video up.


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## Rich Jackson (13 Feb 2015)

Well tank settling down now after its move. 
Just want some low tech broad leaf plants to fill the back out a bit


Ammorite retreat Full tank video.  Feb 2015:


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## Rich Jackson (13 Feb 2015)

A couple of photos to show where it is.


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## Rich Jackson (4 Mar 2015)

All good things come to an end. I am looking at selling up. 
Anyone want to buy it as a job lot? All you can see here?


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## Rich Jackson (7 Mar 2015)

Please see sales section for items that need to go.
Plants fish and wood now all available separately.


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