# chocolate gourami please help



## lil-lynx (8 Jan 2011)

Right today I bought a pair of chocolate gourami. I used the drip method way to add water to their bag. I put the fish in a bucket, then I got a bit of airline tubing, tied a knot to slow the flow do a drip. I did this for about 1 - 2 hours, maybe more. I did the above as I read they have a high death rate , if I remember it was about 60%. Any way once the fish where in the tank they seemed fine . They wernt to keen on the flow (96 litres with a tetratec 1200, with a 2400 lph powerhead). The light are now off and the fish seem to be floqting along the surface. They are just going with the flow , knocking In to the glass sometimes . The thing is when I put my hand in there to try and push them away from the glass and its like they wake up and dart of . After a couple of seconds they start floating again. Is this normal, if this how they sleep, if so I can see then dieing as my flow is quite high 

some one please help .



Thanks


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## Tom (8 Jan 2011)

Are there any other symptoms? Heavy breathing? Any damage/split fins? Clamped fins? Excess mucus?

For a starting point I'd try and get some more Oxygen in there. (I know they're labyrinth)  Raise the outlet or something.


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## nayr88 (9 Jan 2011)

Good idea on the drip acclimatizing,

I probably would of left it closer to 5hours and definitely would of turned of the power head. 


If you haven't then turn of the power head and see how they do but as you've pointed out these fish are very very fragile so it may be a lost cause. I hope they pull through for you mate.


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## lil-lynx (9 Jan 2011)

Thanks. I have turned the power head of . They are breathing fine that's the strange part. I'm scared to raise the spray bar as it might blow them around a bit more . And to be fair 1200 lph hitting you in the face is not the kindest thing lol. 
They have lost their colour a little, but correct me if I'm wrong, most fish lose their colour at night ? .
I do hope these little things pull through they are a little gem. Is their anything I can do to help ?

Thanks


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## Garuf (9 Jan 2011)

Some advice, take it as you will. If you don't know your water parameters from the tap and you aren't familiar with the species don't buy them. Chocolates are black water fish, they suffer like this because they're so adapted for extremely acid conditions that hard waters like those of the UK are totally  un-survivable for them. They really need "cut" ro water to flourish. They're also from totally stagnant, still, hot waters. Any planted tank will not meet these conditions. 

Research will always pay endless dividends. It's a tough lesson to learn in todays instant results driven society but it's one people need to learn.


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## nayr88 (9 Jan 2011)

Did you buy them from a wholesaler? Or from a shop? How's was they kept in there?

Its allways best to ask with these kind of fish where they are from (bred) this helps.


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## Anonymous (9 Jan 2011)

+1 for Garuf's advice


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## angelah (9 Jan 2011)

Here are some stats:-
Fish grow to 6 cm (2 3/4 inches). Suitability for a community tank 2 out of 5. Sociability 9/10. Swim zone mid to lower. Temerature 24-28c. Minimumim best 2 fish. Habitat = denseley planted vegetation. Behaviour peaceful but timid. pH 4-6 needs very soft to soft water conditions. Fish is a mouth brooder laying 20-30 eggs and keeping them in the mouth until hatched.
There's a link here for more info (the powers that be forgive this, I am only trying to save fish)
http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/fish/Chocolate_Gourami.html

Hope that helps. What it will do is give you a better idea of the fishes needs and requirements. I found this out by Googling Tropical fish database. I do this with every fish I even think about keeping well before I put them on a final list. That way you can compare the needs and conditions of every species and see if they match.

Angela

PS :- What I would add is that if you like these lovely fish then set up a 60L tank especially for them where they will be happy and survive. You will then be able to enjoy them much more.


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## a1Matt (9 Jan 2011)

I hope that you and others reading this learn the lesson to always research thoroughly before buying fish.
I often see fish that catch my eye, if I am really tempted I ask the shop to hold them for me while I do my research.

Lecture over 

I've kept chocs for a year or so, they are beautiful fish.

As Garuf said they are a blackwater fish and require specific conditions. 

http://www.seriouslyfish.com/profile.ph ... ides&id=84

They do well for me in 100% RO. 
Even if you matched your water parameters with the shops I would recommend a longer acclimatisation time than 1-2 hours.
If the shop imported them from the wild, then put them straight in a standard tank for any length of time then they probably already had their death warrant signed before you got them.
(I know someone that has kept them in tap water, but the acclimatisation process has to be done very slowly for this to work. Weeks not hours.)

Chocs are strong swimmers and do like flow, but I have never had flow as high as yours so cannot comment authoritatively.  

When healthy, but stressed, they do play dead.  This involves lying flat (usually on the substrate) and occasionally flicking or curling up.  They then look exactly like a leaf.  If you have them on a leafy substrate it is incredible as they disappear right in front of you.  The behaviour you describe is not normal though, your description is of dying fish.  Once at that stage your chances are very low of getting them back to health.


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## lil-lynx (9 Jan 2011)

Ahh man i should of done my research. This morning they seem fine, both swimming around. Will feed them some frozen, or I might pop to maidenhead aquatic for some live. Well I have learnt my lessons guys. You say about my water, I took some tests before I put them in and it was all perfect, no ammonia no nitrite and no nitrate. Before I added these fish I did a small 20 - 30% water change. I use a big cartridge which removes all chlorine, and if I remember right it keeps the ph to 6 or 7 . Thanks for the comments guys, I have learnt my lesson. 


Thanks


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## lil-lynx (9 Jan 2011)

Could some tell me my water turn over ? 

Thanks


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## angelah (9 Jan 2011)

lil-lynx said:
			
		

> Ahh man i should of done my research. This morning they seem fine, both swimming around. Will feed them some frozen, or I might pop to maidenhead aquatic for some live. Well I have learnt my lessons guys. You say about my water, I took some tests before I put them in and it was all perfect, no ammonia no nitrite and no nitrate. Before I added these fish I did a small 20 - 30% water change. I use a big cartridge which removes all chlorine, and if I remember right it keeps the ph to 6 or 7 . Thanks for the comments guys, I have learnt my lesson.
> 
> 
> Thanks



At least you know now and it won't happen again. We can all make mistakes but the important thing is to learn from them and you have.
So I wish you well with your tank and your new fish. Good luck for the future.

Angela


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## a1Matt (9 Jan 2011)

I am glad the fish look better now.  

The tank parameters you describe are not blackwater, so I would cross your fingers that you have tank bred chocs or that the shop did a good job transitioning them prior to selling them. If not it is likely they will die (seemingly for no apparent reason) in a couple of months.  

If you want to understand more on blackwater, I would recommend studying this thread: viewtopic.php?f=51&t=9306&hilit=creating+blackwater



			
				lil-lynx said:
			
		

> Could some tell me my water turn over ?
> Thanks





			
				lil-lynx said:
			
		

> (96 litres with a tetratec 1200, with a 2400 lph powerhead).


1200 + 2400 = 3600. 
3600 / 96 = 37.5


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## lil-lynx (9 Jan 2011)

Is that 37.5 turn over, of my tank per hour ?. Will ro water help, adding power to soften the water, re mineralizing I think its called . I think garuf suggested this  ?

Thanks


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## a1Matt (9 Jan 2011)

Yes, that is 37.5 turnover.  Quite a hefty turnover 

Yes, RO water is a good start.  
For strict blackwater you want to aim for 0kh, 0gh, and low TDS (<100)and low ph (<6). 

For my choc tank, I just stick to low TDS and hardness and do not worry about the ph. I do that my using pure RO only. Quite simple.

Reading and re-reading the thread I linked to earlier will help, there is lots of info in there.


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## lil-lynx (9 Jan 2011)

WOW is that a bit much, as I said about my power head is of at the moment, shall I turn it back on ?. I have increased my co2 a little bit to try and soften the water. Could you explain what TDS is ?. Also im going to start doing a 30% water change every week using RO water. Am I right that you have to add minerals back in to the water, if so can someone.
point me in the right direction.

By the way these little things love, live brine shrimp, at lest that's a good signs  

Regards 
Chris


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## a1Matt (9 Jan 2011)

Glad they are eating 



			
				lil-lynx said:
			
		

> WOW is that a bit much, as I said about my power head is of at the moment, shall I turn it back on ?


Up to you, but I'd leave it off for now. That still gives you 12.5 turnover, which is ample turnover.



			
				lil-lynx said:
			
		

> . I have increased my co2 a little bit to try and soften the water.


Personally I would not bother with this, lower TDS will make more of a difference.



			
				lil-lynx said:
			
		

> .Could you explain what TDS is ?


Total Dissolved Solids. 
There is a comprehensive article on TDS here: http://www.plecoplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3480



			
				lil-lynx said:
			
		

> . Also im going to start doing a 30% water change every week using RO water. Am I right that you have to add minerals back in to the water, if so can someone.
> point me in the right direction.


Normally you would add minerals back in. BUT! to get blackwater you do not add anything back in.
If you do go pure RO do the 30% WC very slowly (couple of hours) as it is a major change of parameters.
Think of it as acclimatising them allover again every WC.
After the 4th 30% change the difference will be negligible and you can speed up the WC.

What other fish do you have in?
As much as the gouramis like blackwater bear in mind that the exceptionally low TDS may harm other fish.

By the way, you want the chocs to have dark chocolate colours, and the banding to be an irridescent gold colour.
If they are blotchy light brown with white bands they are not doing too well.


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## nayr88 (10 Jan 2011)

Thanks for the info matt, very useful

I was unaware that black water had no minerals added, I suppose the minerals and 'goodness' comes from what you use to 'tam' the water.

With the water hardness right down aswell as the TDS what would you recommend to stain the water? I have what look like alder cones everywhere outside my flat. Also leaf litter. Obviously the other choices being a peat bag in the filter, catapa or almond leaves.

Ill be doing a shed load of research for my BW tank, I'd like to do apistogramma's and a gang of tetras havnt decided 100% yet of which type, but from the same area as the apisto's would be cool.
Ill check your journal out mate 

Cheers.


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## nayr88 (10 Jan 2011)

Quick one

Anyone recommend an RO unit? The tank wil be 60-120 haven't  decided yet. 

Are they hard to fit? Will it require tools?

Thanks


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## a1Matt (10 Jan 2011)

nayr88 said:
			
		

> Thanks for the info matt, very useful
> 
> I was unaware that black water had no minerals added, I suppose the minerals and 'goodness' comes from what you use to 'tam' the water.
> 
> ...




I've tried indian almond leaves, alder cones and peat.  Not yet tried Oak leaves, but have it on good faith they are effective too.   
I would not recommend one over another, they all have their pros cand cons.

I found peat a bit messy (but the cheapest option, Â£10 gets you a bale that will last years).
An alder cone came loose once, lodged in my filter tubing, stopped flow, and my hydor stuck permanently on. Cooked the tank. Very expensive accident.  Not the alder cones fault, but it put me off them nonetheless.
So I then settled on indian almond leaves in the filter.  They disintegrate by the third week, so look to changing them out every 2 weeks.  
Or you can put them straight in the tank, and they will provide cover and biofilm too.

I have to admit of late I have been lazy and not replaced the leaves that often, but still use 100% RO water.  So I suspect I have the correct TDS, gh, kh, but my ph is not as low as it should be.  The fish seem fine so I am happy with this.

By the way...

The reason for putting all this gubbins in the water is to lower the ph.
They cones\leaves\peat do this by releasing tannins, which also taint the colour of the water.  This colouring is a by product and not actually needed.  
I suspect some of the claims made about the 'goodies' that leaves and cones provide are snake oil claims.

I've also read that, lower ph in and of itself inhibits bacterial growth, and this is why blackwater fish often get sick\feeble in 'normal' water as they just can not ward off the bacteria present.  Seems plausible to me.

Tannins can be a pain, as varying tannin levels mean varying light levels, and you can easily end up with a dark brown murky tank you can hardly see in.
I find a combo of pink and harsh white lights work well to balance the tannin colour out.

No minerals are added by these products (or the tannins they release), nor are they needed. Minerals would raise the TDS which is something you want to prevent in a blackwater tank.




			
				nayr88 said:
			
		

> Ill check your journal out mate


Kind fellow that I am I made lots of mistakes for others to learn from, and then documented them all in my journal for everyone to see 

From a planted tank perspective, as well as light levels and tannins, dry ferts raise TDS considerably.

So you can see keeping a blackwater tank planted raises challenges too.  That is why I went the blackwater route, I wanted a challenge  

My Chocolate gourami journal is here: http://www.lfkc.co.uk/index.php?topic=279.0


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