# EI dosing please help



## Alex white (10 Mar 2019)

Hi everyone this is my first question so bare with me. I have been doing co2 planted tanks now for 2 years. Sometimes it goes great and sometimes lots of algae issues. I’ve tried eI dosing before and gave up and went back to  expensive water products. In  Lehmans terms  Would someone be able to just write me a recipe for what I need to by and how much I need to mix for a 500ml bottle. I understand trace is just one packet of salts. I have other salts at home but not the  measurements I need . I have a 125ltr tank with co2 and good flow


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## Kalum (10 Mar 2019)

Recipe can be found in this article: https://www.ukaps.org/index.php?page=dosing-with-dry-salts

And also here and is where a lot of people buy from, frustratingly they seem to be out of stock a lot recently but salts can be found elsewhere very easily: https://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/fertilisers/dry-chemicals/starter-kits/ei-starter-kit.html


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## oscarlloydjohn (10 Mar 2019)

I would recommend a commercial micro such as Flourish or Profito in place of the aquariumplantfoodUK trace.

Have a look at https://rotalabutterfly.com/nutrient-calculator.php for an easy way to calculate dosages.

Any other questions feel free to ask

Oscar


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## Kalum (10 Mar 2019)

oscarlloydjohn said:


> I would recommend a commercial micro such as Flourish or Profito in place of the aquariumplantfoodUK trace.
> 
> Have a look at https://rotalabutterfly.com/nutrient-calculator.php for an easy way to calculate dosages.
> 
> ...



Oscar is right if you have hard water, if you have soft water it's a bit more forgiving. Still I'm tempted to try another trace such as profito anyway 

I've bought some salts from other places recently and found them to dissolve better than the ones from APF (specifically magnesium), I think there's better quality out there but it's an easy one stop shop to point people towards and it'll do a good job


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## Alex white (11 Mar 2019)

Yes I do have hard water. So don’t you trace salts. Just use profito every other day. And the other salts dissolved in boiled water and put in to my 500ml bottle. I’ll have a look at the calculator hopefully I can get my head around it . Also I have bottles of flourish potassium and iron will I not need to dose these with EI dosing. Trying to read my plants and to know what there needing is what I’m finding difficult that’s why I think EI is for me. Thanks for the information and I’m sure I’ll bug you again soon


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## foxfish (11 Mar 2019)

Nice and simple....


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## Zeus. (11 Mar 2019)

oscarlloydjohn said:


> would recommend a commercial micro such as Flourish or Profito in place of the aquariumplantfoodUK trace



I have used APF trace and TNC trace - would using Flourish or Profito be any better and get better results as the cost difference is Massive


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## oscarlloydjohn (11 Mar 2019)

Zeus. said:


> I have used APF trace and TNC trace - would using Flourish or Profito be any better and get better results as the cost difference is Massive



Cost difference is massive but for a smaller tank isn't too bad. Profito contains more micronutrients than TNC or APF and it uses multiple chelators so works in all types of water.

Oscar


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## dw1305 (11 Mar 2019)

Hi all, 





Kalum said:


> found them to dissolve better than the ones from APF (specifically magnesium)


There can't really be any difference in their solubility, it may be to do with the crystal size (bigger crystals will take a bit longer, as will any lumps).

Whatever has caused it, won't make any difference in use, it is an extremely soluble salt.

The only other option is the "water of crystallization" number (MgSO4.nH2O). Usually it would be the heptahydrate (.7H2O), but if it ihas been stored dry and was originally anhydrous (MgSO4), or the mono-hydrate (MgSO4.H2O), it would take a bit longer to go into solution, because it will become more fully hydrated before it dissolves. 





oscarlloydjohn said:


> Profito contains more micronutrients than TNC or APF and it uses multiple chelators so works in all types of water.


That would be a reason for using Profito, but it is only really iron (Fe) you need to worry about (if you have hard water), so an alternative iron chelator like FeDTPA etc would be a cheaper option

cheers Darrel


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## Zeus. (11 Mar 2019)

dw1305 said:


> it may be to do with the crystal size (bigger crystals will take a bit longer, as will any lumps).



mine does take some time to disolve but I am adding a lot of MgSO4 to my Macro mix



dw1305 said:


> but it is only really iron (Fe) you need to worry about (if you have hard water), so an alternative iron chelator like FeDTPA etc



Think I might need some for my hard water in my micro mix. pH of tank was dropping below 7 at first so was using seachem iron, but the tank never drops below 7 so it clouds up if I use seachem iron, so some FeDTPA in my micro mix might resolve the pinholes I get in my Hygrophila pinnatifida !!!

Getting Fe right does seem to be tricky with pH and water hardness affecting Fe equilibrium constant and hence the Fe available for plants to use


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## Alex white (11 Mar 2019)

Thank you for all your reply’s this does make a lot more sense now. Would it be easier fo growing plants if I went RO water? Or is there a lot more water science to deal with? Easy or not ??


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## Jayefc1 (11 Mar 2019)

Hi Alex I've just started making an all in one mix from James planted tank and it has almost exact same % as TNC complete I used APF salts and trace with 5ml added seachams iron been using for 3 weeks now seems to be doing really well 
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/allinone


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## dw1305 (11 Mar 2019)

Hi all, 





Zeus. said:


> mine does take some time to disolve but I am adding a lot of MgSO4 to my Macro mix


You might be getting up towards the solubility limit for all your salts, even though they are individually soluble as you get towards a fully saturated solution they will take longer to dissolve. 





Alex white said:


> Would it be easier fo growing plants if I went RO water?


Swings and roundabouts really, most plants (and fish) are fine in hard water, and there is the additonal waste, time  and expense involved with making RO.  

I have hard tap water (most people in the S & E of the UK do) but I've always <"used rain-water"> in the tanks.

If I used our tap water I would keep different fish, use a different chelator for iron and use a dechlorinator but otherwise everything would be the same. 

cheers Darrel


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## Zeus. (11 Mar 2019)

@dw1305 

Have just checked out  a few FeDTPA possibility's eg *Solufeed Fe 11 DTPA**, *and it says 'Practical pH stability range: 4 – 7.5 (in aqueous solution).'  So with my tank target pH is 7.4 and night time pH is 8.5 or higher. Which suggests to me that it will/may precipitate out of solution at the working pH of my tank


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## dw1305 (11 Mar 2019)

Hi all,





Zeus. said:


> Practical pH stability range: 4 – 7.5 (in aqueous solution).' So with my tank target pH is 7.4 and night time pH is 8.5 or higher. Which suggests to me that it will/may precipitate out of solution at the working pH of my tank


It will precipitate out, but plants don't need a huge amount of iron, so they are probably going to get enough iron from the FeDTPA.

If you don't have a <"floating plant"> _Rotala rotundifolia_ would seem to be a <"pretty good indicator for Fe deficiency problems">. I haven't grown any of the _Rotala_ species, so I don't have any practical experience of them.






cheers Darrel


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## Oldguy (12 Mar 2019)

Zeus. said:


> pH stability range



When considering the stability of transition metal chelates, it is not just pH and photostability that should be considered but ion exchange between solvated ions such as Ca2+ and Mg2+ and the transition metal ion to ligand bond in the chelated compound. There are lists of relative stabilities on the web.

I keep trace mixes such as Fe and other trace elements as chelated compounds in aqueous solution in dark bottles but without any other chemicals (a tiny amount of KHSO4 to stabilize pH excepted). When added to the tank I would expect Fe and other chelated metals ions to come out of chelation and be available to plants as simple solvated ions. I use Sulufeed  Fe13EDTA and TMAG to provide iron and other trace metals, the latter is longer available but it has been replaced by a better product. Many are available with different chelatating compounds and as potassium salts instead of sodium salts and in small Kg amounts. I have, what I have, and then they were only sold by the sack when I and Adam were lads.

In hard water, Fe and other transition metal ions will be replaced from chelation by solvated Ca an Mg ions. The half life of the simple solvated Fe and other transition metal ions in a bare dark container will be pH dependent. However we aim for these simple salts to be absorbed by our plants and this should be the dominant factor in determining the fate of such metals. If not biologically absorbed their usual fate will be as a complex mix of oxides, hydroxides and phosphates, typically not biologically available. Over more than a ten year period I have never noticed iron precipitation in my tanks (moderately hard water) but in the field I have found plenty of gelatinous iron precipitates from iron rich rocks and from mine outflows into receiving waters with both high and low calcium contents. [Some locations in the UK have complex geologies]. Since going 'high tec' I cut 50:50 with rain water to give moderately soft water but I add a little magnesium sulphate to push the hardness up a little.

The EI dosing regime takes this into account with alternate dosing days, thus giving plants the opportunity to absorb different nutrients over a 24hr period. I always assume that Fe and other transition metals will only be available for about 24 hours. Hence regular dosing with dilute solutions.


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## Zeus. (12 Mar 2019)

Oldguy said:


> When considering the stability of transition metal chelates, it is not just pH and photostability that should be considered but ion exchange between solvated ions such as Ca2+ and Mg2+ and the transition metal ion to ligand bond in the chelated compound. There are lists of relative stabilities on the web.
> 
> I keep trace mixes such as Fe and other trace elements as chelated compounds in aqueous solution in dark bottles but without any other chemicals (a tiny amount of KHSO4 to stabilize pH excepted). When added to the tank I would expect Fe and other chelated metals ions to come out of chelation and be available to plants as simple solvated ions. I use Sulufeed  Fe13EDTA and TMAG to provide iron and other trace metals, the latter is longer available but it has been replaced by a better product. Many are available with different chelatating compounds and as potassium salts instead of sodium salts and in small Kg amounts. I have, what I have, and then they were only sold by the sack when I and Adam were lads.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the detail m8 



Oldguy said:


> Over more than a ten year period I have never noticed iron precipitation in my tanks (moderately hard water)



It was quite a significant precipitation when I added seachem iron to to micro EI mix .

I must admin I have been 'winging it' using the EI method with excess ferts, but hopefully will get to the bottom of it and need to work though my hardness and pH and work out what is needed for my tank.

Thanks for the input/advise Guys


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## Oldguy (12 Mar 2019)

Zeus. said:


> It was quite a significant precipitation when I added seachem iron to to micro EI mix


Were these mixed together in you tank or mixed in a container. I am not familiar with trade products (to tight with my money) and I came to chelated dosing long before this group was up and running. I acquired samples from the UK manufacturer that made transition metal complexes for the world. However the chemical industry went through major restructuring so free 'research samples' dried up. Thankfully the gap has been filled by horticultural suppliers and retailers.


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## Zeus. (12 Mar 2019)

Oldguy said:


> Were these mixed together in you tank or mixed in a container. I am not familiar with trade products (to tight with my money)



I Made up my Macro and Micro mixes using salts to within the EI range then dosed Macros one day then Micros the other, added so Seachem Iron extra to my Micro mix, cant remember how much and on Micro day when I got home milky white tank.


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## Zeus. (12 Mar 2019)

Oldguy said:


> In hard water, Fe and other transition metal ions will be replaced from chelation by solvated Ca an Mg ions.



turns out a seem to have lots of these - water report which says its Very Hard





Thats 127ppm Ca and  5.4ppm Mg thats even before I added the MgSO4 in the EI dose. From my reading around recently dont think I really need to add that much MgSO4 if any !!!


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## dw1305 (12 Mar 2019)

Hi all,





Zeus. said:


> From my reading around recently dont think I really need to add that much MgSO4 if any !!!


You probably still need to add some magnesium, it isn't only the total amount in the water that is important, it is too do with the amount of calcium (Ca++) ions as well.  

Some plants will begin to show magnesium deficiency symptoms when the Ca++:Mg++ gets near ~30:1, so you aren't far short of that. Adding some more magnesium doesn't really have any down-side.

Even the 127 mg L-1 of calcium quoted isn't really the whole story, it is just reflects the amount of calcium carbonate (CaCO3) that will go into solution in equilibrium with 400ppm of atmospheric CO2. <"My tap water"> would have a very similar value, in fact all water from limestone aquifers will have similar values, and will have a huge reserve of <"carbonate buffering"> as well. 

cheers Darrel


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## Zeus. (12 Mar 2019)

dw1305 said:


> Some plants will begin to show magnesium deficiency symptoms when the Ca++:Mg++ gets near ~30:1, so you aren't far short of that. Adding some more magnesium doesn't really have any down-side.



Good to here was thinking what the levels of Mg was for a downside, by my calculations my Mg levels are presently about 15ppm but have been as high as 20ppm which should put the ratio of Ca++:Mg++  well below 30:1


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## Alex white (13 Mar 2019)

Hello might be being a bit slow here so I now have my profito. I need to dose this every other day. And my macros the days in between. So the label says 10ml per 100 litres my tank being 125 litres I need to ad 12 ml per week so I should just split this measurement in to 3 days? Or do I need to add more?  Also my macro is 10ml per 50 litres salts from co2 art


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## Oldguy (13 Mar 2019)

Zeus. said:


> Seachem Iron


I assume Seachem Iron is chelated and your mico mix is not. Could be the Gp II ions in your tank had a field day kicking out your transition metal ions from their chelating ligands.  Under moderate (around 7 and lower) pH's Fe2+ has a halve life of about 24hrs before it is oxidized to Fe3+ which tends to precipitate out of solution and not really biologically available. My guess is the milky white cloudiness was iron hydroxide on its way to becoming ferric oxide. The oxides of iron are not as straightforward as 'school chemistry' leads us to believe.

I run at a slightly lower pH than you and aim for a guestimate of 0.1ppm Fe, with Fe2+ bleeding out of the EDTA complex even on macro day. [alternate day dosing].  If shrimps live and breed then copper, my proxy for zinc, is not too high.


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## dw1305 (13 Mar 2019)

Hi all, 





Oldguy said:


> Seachem Iron


I think it is ferric gluconate, so it is only very lightly complexed. 

cheers Darrel


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## Zeus. (13 Mar 2019)

Done some reading  *Understanding Plant Nutrition: Fertilizers And Micronutrients* which says


''With iron nutrition, the form of iron is very important. The three common chelated forms (iron-EDDHA, DTPA and EDTA) differ in their ability to hold onto the iron (and therefore keep iron soluble and available to plants) as the media pH increases. Between a media pH of 4.0 to 5.5, any form of iron will work (including iron sulfate) at supplying iron to the plant. However, as the media pH increases above 7.0, only the iron from Iron-EDDHA has high solubility. Research has shown that the ranking of iron forms from most effective to least effective at supplying iron at high media pH is Iron-EDDHA > Iron-DTPA > Iron-EDTA > Iron sulfate. If iron is applied in a form that is not soluble because of high media pH, then most of the nutrient will not be available to plants until media pH is lowered''.

So if my pH is 7.4 day and 8.5+ at night I would be better off with some Fe EDDHA  £14.00 per Kg adding to my micro mix !! as Practical pH stability range: 4 – 9 (in aqueous solution).
As going for Fe DTPA £16.00 per Kg has Practical pH stability range: 4 – 7.5 (in aqueous solution).


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## dw1305 (13 Mar 2019)

Hi all,





Zeus. said:


> I would be better off with some Fe EDDHA  £14.00 per Kg adding to my micro mix !! as Practical pH stability range: 4 – 9 (in aqueous solution).
> As going for Fe DTPA £16.00 per Kg has Practical pH stability range: 4 – 7.5 (in aqueous solution).


I think the water goes pink when you use FeEDDHA, but it is a longtime since I've tried it. 

Found  a thread on UKAPS  <"@xim's post">.

If you don't mind the pink tinge that is a good price, and one kilo would last for ever.

cheers Darrel


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## Zeus. (13 Mar 2019)

dw1305 said:


> I think the water goes pink when you use FeEDDHA



That explains why folk dont use it  

Thanks Darrel your a wealth of great info 

Placed an order for the  Fe DTPA £16.00 per Kg that covers the postage as well. Plus tank is at 7.4pH for photoperiod and its stable upto 7.5pH. 

Just need to source a suitable trace without any iron in as the tanks do seem to go slightly cloudy over the week using a trace mix with Fe EDTA in


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## X3NiTH (13 Mar 2019)

Zeus. said:


> Just need to source a suitable trace without any iron in as the tanks do seem to go slightly cloudy over the week using a trace mix with Fe EDTA in



There is always Flourish Trace, but dosing it to EI levels is costly. Cheapest way to do it is source the individual salts and make your own, if you want to chelate it then source the appropriate base chelate you want to use. I'm Remineralised GH8 KH8 (pH6.4 - 8ish) and dose daily DIY micro (Mn 0.05, Zn 0.04, B 0.03, Mo 0.0015, Cu 0.002, Ni 0.0005 mg/L), Humic/Fulvic FeGluconate (0.1mg/L) and FeDTPA (0.05mg/L).

I never found a chelated trace element salt source without iron in bulk commercial mixes.


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## Zeus. (15 Mar 2019)

dw1305 said:


> I think the water goes pink when you use FeEDDHA, but it is a longtime since I've tried it.





Think I am having this issue as my ADA AS has lost its buffering capacity as it is over 12 months old
quote
■  Amazonia and pH

Amazonia is originally acidic, with a pH level of 5.0-6.0, and it makes water more acidic. If water change is performed using water with a pH level close to neutral, the pH level of aquarium water gradually increases towards neutral. On the other hand, if alkaline water with a higher pH is used for water change, Amazonia’s function to lower pH level is weakened and this can lead to various adverse effects. Aquatic plants usually perform photosynthesis actively and grow healthy in acidic water with lower pH and carbonate hardness (KH) levels. That is why mildly acidic water realized by the use of Amazonia is suitable for growing aquatic plants. In contrast, in mildly alkaline water with a pH level higher than neutral, aquatic plants do not show active photosynthesis and their growth is slowed. On top of it, mildly alkaline water promotes the leaching of humic acid contained in Amazonia and aquarium water turns to yellow or brown. If the tap water used for water change is around pH 8.0 or high in carbonate hardness, it is recommended to use “be Soft”, an additive effective for lowering pH and carbonate hardness levels, during water change to improve the water quality.
Unquote

Which explains why I'm beginning to see the issue esp with the pH of my tapwater






Plus thats the pH straight out of the tap the pH will also increase when it has degased

Also only just noticed signs of Chlorosis on new plant growth on my Anubis and the leaves a little paler than the old ones with the veins standing out darker and a few holes in the leaves of the new growth too,


 quite obvious once you spot it


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## Zeus. (15 Mar 2019)

X3NiTH said:


> dose daily DIY micro (Mn 0.05, Zn 0.04, B 0.03, Mo 0.0015, Cu 0.002, Ni 0.0005 mg/L), Humic/Fulvic FeGluconate (0.1mg/L) and FeDTPA (0.05mg/L).



Managed to find most of the trace elements esp the EDTA ones but struggling with *Boron* and can get Molybdenum as Molybdenum Ammonium Heptamolybdate Pure (NH4)6Mo7O24 Planted Aquarium Fertilizer which is pure so will just add a gram to 100ml to yield a 1% Mo solution to add to the micro mix

Also notice you added a dash of Nickel to your Micro mix as well !

Where did you get you elements from m8 ?


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## X3NiTH (16 Mar 2019)

Sodium Molybdate Dihydrate 98% you can get from APC Pure, also Boric Acid 99-100% which is subject to completion and approval of declaration of use. You can get Manganese II Sulphate there also but it's cheaper from Minerals-Water where you can also get Copper Sulphate Pentahydrate and Zinc Sulphate Heptahydrate. On eBay you can get Nickel II Sulphate Hexahydrate.

For Chloride I use Magnesium Chloride, I use this as part of my remineralisation strategy, Minerals-Water is a great source, you can get Calcium Chloride there also. Other components I use are Magnesium Carbonate, Calcium Carbonate and Potassium Bicarbonate.


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## X3NiTH (16 Mar 2019)

Chelating the trace elements is entirely optional, if you dose daily (like I do into GH/KH8 pH6.4-8 water) then I would say you don't need it as long as you dose the micro when you have max CO₂ before lights on and the pH is below neutral. You really don't need to be adding SodiumEDTA if you can avoid it (you can get PotassiumEDTA but I've yet to find a sensible source for it, it's the preservative used in blood sampling vials).

I should add that when mixing the traces together make sure the RO/DI has been well acidified beforehand or the Zinc Sulphate will precipitate out as Zinc Hydroxide when added and your mix will look like white pulped paper (if you make this mistake and try to reverse the reaction by acidifying after Zinc addition then it will oxidise it into Zinc Oxide and form a black flaky precipitate, I did this so you don't have to!).


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## Zeus. (16 Mar 2019)

X3NiTH said:


> Chelating the trace elements is entirely optional, if you dose daily (like I do into GH/KH8 pH6.4-8 water) then I would say you don't need it as long as you dose the micro when you have max CO₂ before lights on and the pH is below neutral



Dont think I much choice with my tap water, tanks lowest pH is 7.4 so chealted traces probably the best option to prevent precipitation,  been looking at Solufeed Mn 13 EDTA, Solufeed Zn 14 EDTA and Solufeed Cu 14 EDTA

Many thanks for the Boric acid link

Just after a micro mix with Fe DTPA to suit my Very Hard water which doesnt cost the earth long term, plus if you make the trace yourself you can tweek the individual elements ppm


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## Zeus. (16 Mar 2019)

APC charge a mint for postage  when I ordered my Fe DTPA £16.00 per Kg that included the P&P

I think this Boric acid should do the job *Boric Acid, 99.9% Pure*


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## Oldguy (16 Mar 2019)

Zeus. said:


> chealted traces probably the best option


Chelated compounds give a longer shelf life in solution, especially as mixed compounds. I weigh out amounts to make 5 litres of stock solution which is pH adjusted. Then use a 500ml aliquot of the stock solution and dilute to 5 litres to use for tank dosing. Errors in weighing are significantly reduced. Stock bottles are painted black and kept in a cupboard. Never use tap water for these solutions. Macros always use tap water but keep each compound in its own bottle and not that concerned about accuracy in weighing.


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## X3NiTH (16 Mar 2019)

There's a fully Biodegradable alternative Chelate to EDTA out there called IDHA, I've not tried it yet but it's on my to do list (if I can source it).


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## Zeus. (17 Mar 2019)

One thing I never checked even though I have had a pH meter for some time is check the pH of my tap water after it had been left to degas never felt the need for it . Quite shocking really. Check my Hanna probe with 7.0pH buffer it was find and it was fine, didnt bother with the 4.0pH buffer and poured a beaker full and in pic above


Zeus. said:


>



nearly 8pH but then I left it 24hrs and it then read 9.5pH  wasnt expecting that. Checked the pH on a low tech tank I have with no substrate/rocks/DW  9.6ph. Which makes sense to me retrospectively with the CO2 pH profiles I have done in the past. My Target pH use to be 6.5pH or even lower in the early days, using a pH controller it works till the target is reached and my DC with hindsight always ended up over time (months) going more clear. Well thats because of the the ADA AS losing it buffering capacity OFC. In my potted High tech tank there is even less ADA AS and this is the tank that gets cloudly over the week the most, plants have been struggling in it too when at one time they wasn't. 
Always good to find the potential source of a problem, even when the problem is a noob oversight .

FeDTPA should arrive next week, I did also order some FeEDDHA which I may use for a short while


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## Oldguy (17 Mar 2019)

X3NiTH said:


> Biodegradable alternative Chelate to EDTA out there called IDHA


Thanks for the link and information. Interested in how you get on with it once you have found a supplier. I have a life times supply of the EDTA complexes, unless  the wife agrees to a really really big tank. I think the problem is time scale and lack of photo degradation once in the soil. If memory serves me well hydroponic units UV their discharge effluent to reduce EDTA loading. However chelating compounds have wide uses even in cleaning products.


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## Jayefc1 (17 Mar 2019)

wanna sell a couple of hundred grams of the FE DTPA lol


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