# Fert help



## Sacul (8 May 2022)

Hi
I need some help. I've just gone from low tech to CO2 injection in the the last few weeks. On my low tech 200L I was dosing TNC complete and it was great.

I've now upgraded to 300L with CO2. I'm seeing a bit of die back which I was expecting with the tank move, not much growth other wise but I'm still trying to get my CO2 right aswel. 

I've just started looking at EI dosing but for my new tank according to a calculator this would be 75ml 2-4 times a week for TNC complete. That's 300ml a week of the higher amount! How can I make this cheaper to do, I've been reading and just getting myself confused with all the different information.

Thanks guys


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## Nick potts (8 May 2022)

The best and cheapest option is going to be mixing your own

Aquatic Plants Fertiliser | Aqua Plants Care has all the chemicals you will need, for the macros you will need KNO3, KH2PO4 and MgSO4x7H2O and some CSM+B Trace for the micros.

£20-30 will get you enough to last a long time.


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## Sacul (8 May 2022)

Thanks. I'll take a look at that. So I would then need to use the calculator to work out how much of each I need and mix in a bottle?


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## Sacul (8 May 2022)

I see the trace elements include copper, can I use a trace without copper as I have shrimp?


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## Zeus. (8 May 2022)

Sacul said:


> can I use a trace without copper as I have shrimp?


Much depends on which shrimp you have, Red Cherry Shrimp (RCS) are pretty bullet proof as far as shrimp go if you have them, My RCS have trived using traces with Cu in. 
The trace which @Nick potts surgested has 50%less Cu than TNC complete for same target dose of Fe (ignore Volumes in pics as irrelevant, first pic is a clone of TNC using Trace Nick mentioned ) 




However if your EI dosing you will be aiming for about 0.5ppm Fe



which will yield about 0.006ppm Cu added per week - not sure what safe level is for shrimp you have - for some shrimp lower/none is better.


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## Nick potts (8 May 2022)

As above really.

I have used many different brands of ferts as well as DIY and never checked Cu levels, and I keep lots of shrimp, both cherries and crystals.


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## Zeus. (8 May 2022)

Copper and shrimp: Myth vs Truth !!! it mention 4ppm Cu as upper limit ?


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## Sacul (8 May 2022)

I have cherry's and bamboo shrimp. If that's the case I'll go ahead with it. I never had any problems with TNC and had both bamboos and cherry's in the 200L. I'll get that all ordered and have a decent supply of ferts. Starting to get there now


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## Hufsa (8 May 2022)

Zeus. said:


> it mention 4ppm Cu as upper limit ?


That is *definitely* not right in all cases.

Toxicity of Cu is highly dependent on water hardness, you can find thorough scientific papers about it if you look, it has been studied extensively for aquaculture.
I checked my notes and for my tap water of about 3 gh & kh the relevant values were
"No Observed Effect Concentration (48 hours) is 0.008 ppm CuSO4 for rainbow trout"
aka 0.002 ppm Cu
Ill see if I can find the papers my notes are referencing.

Shrimp will probably be more sensitive than fish

[Edit] Found an old thread of mine about Copper, the paper referenced was this one
Unchelated copper will be more toxic than chelated, I will look further for data on chelated copper tomorrow


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## Hufsa (8 May 2022)

Ill ping @Simon Cole here as well, im starting to believe he knows just about everything


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## jaypeecee (8 May 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Toxicity of Cu is highly dependent on water hardness, you can find thorough scientific papers about it if you look, it has been studied extensively for aquaculture.


Hi @Hufsa 

I have several scientific papers investigating copper toxicity on aquatic organisms - including fish and shrimp. I'll dig them out tomorrow. I also seem to recall that it's not so much GH that has a bearing on toxicity but alkalinity/KH. I'll be back.

JPC


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## Simon Cole (9 May 2022)

I found _Caridina sp._ LC10 (48hr)= 0.5327 to 0.0447 ppm "acid digested copper" from a completely dubious and unreliable source... _Ignore completely._
And back to the 1970s we have this for _Caridina sp. _LC50 (48hr) = 0.281 ppm copper sulphate... _Let's do the time warp again. _
Which one hobbyist/blogger/breeder felt wasn't "dangerous" _ ...Consider what a lethal concentration represents over time._

For the freshwater Whisker shrimp _Macrobrachium lamarrei (same taxonomic order as Caridina) _two researchers in the 1980s published LC25 (48hr) = 0.225 and LC25 (96hr) = 0.211 ppm copper sulphate... _Back to the future._
For the Giant river prawn _Macrobrachium rosenbergii_ this study in 2013 published LC50 (96 hr) = 0.35 ppm copper sulphate, with a detailed discussion of survivability.

NB, Copper(II) sulphate molecular mass 159.609 g/mol, copper Cu(I) molecular mass: 63.545 g/mol, yield of copper ions = 25.59% lower than copper sulphate? so can we reduce the values above somewhat if we assume it was dissociated?
Bioavailable copper might be a bit different to chelated copper, and apparently: "Organic chelators, such as EDTA and dissolved organic matter, complex cupric ions to generally decrease toxicity although increased toxicity is sometimes observed".

For the freshwater Australian glass shrimp _Paratya australiensis_ LC-50 (96 hr) = 0.020 ppm copper(II) at 9.1 ppm calcium carbonate alkalinity, and LC-50 (96 hr) = 0.045 ppm copper(II) at 100 ppm calcium carbonate alkalinity, in a study published in 1990.

Apparently gastropods are more tolerant to copper and can accumulate quite high concentrations without toxic effects. _Well who knew... I'll take that with a sprinkling of salt.

Gammarus_ are sometimes "model" organisms.  _Gammarus pseudolimnaeus_ hatched and grew to adult stage in total copper concentrations below 0.0046 ppm according to this publication, but we know that they are very sensitive, except possibly in Darrel's tanks. The newly hatched _Gammarus_ were markedly reduced when total copper concentrations were between 0.0129 and 0.0062 ppm. It could depend upon whether they ingest it too.
The no observed adverse effect level (NOAEL) would be far nicer to know that the LC50 or LC25 (48hr). _Anybody got shrimp to sacrifice in the name of progress._


Zeus. said:


> yield about 0.006ppm Cu added per week


My guess is that if EI appears to allow most _Gammarus_ to hatch and grow, then it would be fairly suitable nutrient dosing, but I could not access that study (above) to see the survival distribution.

My feeling is that you can go ahead with this dosing plan, but also be aware of your water source chemistry (supplier quality reports).
It was mentioned more than once in the literature that copper pipework (especially when it corrodes) and hot water cylinders increase the ionic copper concentration, so I might revise my position here, and people could factor that in if they were super concerned. It might not matter that much if water conditioners work as advertised and remove copper anyway, but if you started breeding _Gammarus_ then it might matter.


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## Sacul (9 May 2022)

Here is my water report I managed to get, it has min, mean and max. Assuming I take mean as a measurement it says 0 copper. But the max measurement is a big increase at 0.0191.


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## Simon Cole (9 May 2022)

@Sacul - Looking at it, I wouldn't believe the data because it all looks a bit odd.


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## xZaiox (9 May 2022)

Simon Cole said:


> @Sacul - Looking at it, I wouldn't believe the data because it all looks a bit odd.


Yeah, last time I checked, 'mean' can't be a value below 'min' 😂😂


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## Zeus. (9 May 2022)

This is the data we have on the products in the IFC calculator
I have included the Fe ppm and the Cu ppm for each product, plus added a Fe:Cu ratio purely to help highlight which will give the lower [CU] when you targeting specific [Fe]. Higher the ratio the lower the [Cu] for any given [Fe]. As just looking at the [Cu] per advise dose would be wrong as we tend to target the [Fe] and its resultant [Cu] we would be interested in.






NilocG Thrive range have very low [Cu] for the iron they supply and one of their products has no Cu at all in NilocG Thrive shrimp
TSN has four times the level of Cu compared with TNC for same target of Fe
APFUK trace is on par with Solufeeds traces (which is expected as they got their trace from them)
The CSM+B products have about half the Cu per Fe dosed compared with most other traces salts

Obviously if your copying a regime or cloning a commercial fert its your choice of trace salt that will make all the difference.


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## Sacul (9 May 2022)

I've been looking on the IFC calculator and I'm trying to match EI dosing mid (without the added calcium as I'm not sure if I need it) as I'm not heavily planted but I would think it's more than low dosing. Once everything has grown more then I'll switch to high. Unless I'm going about this completely wrong. So Fe 0.4 would be Cu 0.005 unless like you say I change the trace salt


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## dw1305 (9 May 2022)

Hi all,


xZaiox said:


> Yeah, last time I checked, 'mean' can't be a value below 'min'


These reports are the absolute minimum that they can get away with legally and, as you say, are incredibly shoddily presented.

In this case the "min", "mean" & "max" values are all  *actually zero*. When you are below the detection limit for a particular analytical test, quite often you will get a random value, it is just the "noise", for whatever reason they presented the minimum value as the "noise" value, even though it is totally meaningless. When they've given the mean value they've ignored the "noise" and reported a zero value.

Because the nitrate value is pretty low I'm going to guess it is soft water from a Bodmin etc Moor reservoir. @Sacul somewhere there should be some values for conductivity, hardness etc.?

cheers Darrel


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## Zeus. (9 May 2022)

Sacul said:


> I've been looking on the IFC calculator and I'm trying to match EI dosing mid (without the added calcium as I'm not sure if I need it)






Just say 'no' to cloning and enter the ppms direct, it works exactly the same


Sacul said:


> So Fe 0.4 would be Cu 0.005 unless like you say I change the trace salt





Correct.
It would also be less if you used more than one trace salt



As the target [Fe] will be shared/ratio as you choose


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## Sacul (9 May 2022)

dw1305 said:


> somewhere there should be some values for conductivity, hardness etc.?


There is indeed and you are correct it is soft water. I've added the attachment so you can see


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## Sacul (9 May 2022)

Zeus. said:


> It would also be less if you used more than one trace salt


Ah that's a good idea. Can I mix the trace salts together? A bottle of macros mixed and bottle of trace mixed?


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## dw1305 (9 May 2022)

Hi all, 


Sacul said:


> There is indeed and you are correct it is soft water.


It is a strange one, just because the conductivity  and calcium values are really variable I'd guess you have a blended supply where sometimes it is soft water and sometimes it is harder, presumably with water from a limestone aquifer blended in.

cheers Darrel


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## Zeus. (9 May 2022)

Sacul said:


> Can I mix the trace salts together?


I did and didn't have any issues /precipitate. I have also done it with One macro mix and two trace mixes so i could play with the amounts of each trace salt I add.
If using Fe DTPA keep it out of direct sunlight as it can break down pretty quick, also if using auto doser use tubing which has blackout - I just some black tape


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## Sacul (9 May 2022)

No auto doser.... Yet, that's next on the list once I've got everything else sorted. 

As for mixing macros and traces together, can that be done? Obviously it's been done as the all in one's have them mixed but at alot lower concentrations. Just wondered if it would work


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## jaypeecee (9 May 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Hufsa
> 
> I have several scientific papers investigating copper toxicity on aquatic organisms - including fish and shrimp. I'll dig them out tomorrow. I also seem to recall that it's not so much GH that has a bearing on toxicity but alkalinity/KH. I'll be back.
> 
> JPC


Hi Folks,

The following link is the one I had in mind that refers to alkalinity:






						FA-13/FA008: Use of Copper in Freshwater Aquaculture and Farm Ponds
					

University of Florida, Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences Extension outreach is a partnership between state, federal, and county governments to provide scientific knowledge and expertise to the public. The University of Florida (UF), together with Florida A&M University (FAMU)...




					edis.ifas.ufl.edu
				




JPC


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## Zeus. (9 May 2022)

Sacul said:


> Obviously it's been done as the all in one's have them mixed but at alot lower concentrations. Just wondered if it would work


The IFC gives the E202 and E300 amounts you need to add to the water of the All In One. Add them first before any other salts 





I personally when making fert solutions make larger volumes and dose more, it acts like a little top up as well as a fert, plus the more dilute a solution the less chance of 'common ion effects' and other interactions.
IMO Dry dosing is best 'if' you tank is big enough, then Macro and Micro dosing Then AIO.
Front loading is also becoming popular ( which I have yet to try)- this is where you dose all the macros after WC which also saves on needing an auto doser and Dry salt would also fit well. Then Micro is dosed every other day - so only one doser needed


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## Zeus. (9 May 2022)

Sacul said:


> Obviously it's been done as the all in one's have them mixed but at alot lower concentrations. Just wondered if it would work


The IFC gives the E202 and E300 amounts you need to add to the water of the All In One. Add them first before any other salts 
View attachment 188281

I personally when making fert solutions make larger volumes and dose more, it acts like a little top up as well as a fert, plus the more dilute a solution the less chance of 'common ion effects' and other interactions.
IMO Dry dosing is best 'if' you tank is big enough, then Macro and Micro dosing Then AIO.
Front loading is also becoming popular ( which I have yet to try)- this is where you dose all the macros after WC which also saves on needing an auto doser and Dry salt would also fit well. Then Micro is dosed every other day - so only one doser needed


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## Sacul (9 May 2022)

I think maybe I could get away with dry dosing as it's 300L but im not sure I could stick to measuring it all out 2-3 times a week, seems it could get tedious haha. That's why I was thinking AIO approach just for the ease of it


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## xZaiox (9 May 2022)

Sacul said:


> I think maybe I could get away with dry dosing as it's 300L but im not sure I could stick to measuring it all out 2-3 times a week, seems it could get tedious haha. That's why I was thinking AIO approach just for the ease of it


For what it's worth, I dry dose my 180L tank and it's incredibly easy. I've got all of my salts in tubs with a label I put on for how much to dose of each, and I bought a set of measuring spoons going all the way from 1 tablespoon to 1/64th of a teaspoon. It literally takes me less than 1 minute per day to dose the tank.


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## Zeus. (9 May 2022)

Sacul said:


> I think maybe I could get away with dry dosing as it's 300L but im not sure I could stick to measuring it all out 2-3 times a week, seems it could get tedious haha. That's why I was thinking AIO approach just for the ease of it


Just selecting the macro dose to once per week will show the amount of each dry salt to dose after WC


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## Sacul (9 May 2022)

Yea I might try that. WC then dry dose the weeks amount of macros. I suppose a dry dose after WC is no more tedious than the WC itself 😁


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## Zeus. (9 May 2022)

Sacul said:


> Yea I might try that. WC then dry dose the weeks amount of macros. I suppose a dry dose after WC is no more tedious than the WC itself 😁


I was chatting with @Hanuman the other day and we was chatting about front loading as he was trying it. I think Front loading has quite a few good points going for it esp for the larger tanks when the dry dosing amounts are easy to measure.


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## Sacul (9 May 2022)

Looking at my weekly dry dose amounts, should I round them up/down or try to get them exact?


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## Zeus. (9 May 2022)

Sacul said:


> Looking at my weekly dry dose amounts, should I round them up/down or try to get them exact?
> 
> View attachment 188284


I would try and keep them relatively close eg take the Mono Potassium Phosphate mass of 0.86grams per week, weigh out 8.6grams then by eye spilt it into 10 equal piles each will be about 0.86grams or less mass and less piles


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## jaypeecee (9 May 2022)

Hi Folks,

Here's another very useful resource:



			https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/environment/air-land-water/water/waterquality/water-quality-guidelines/approved-wqgs/copper/bc_copper_wqg_aquatic_life_technical_report.pdf
		


I have found Sections 7 and 8 of the above document to be useful. No doubt there will be a UK/European equivalent. Perhaps if someone has the details of such a document, they could include a link in this thread. It's possible that I have such a document but I can't track it down right now.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (9 May 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> No doubt there will be a UK/European equivalent. Perhaps if someone has the details of such a document, they could include a link in this thread. It's possible that I have such a document but I can't track it down right now.



Me again!

Much to my surprise, I read the following in the Canadian document:

"The European Union does not consider Cu a substance of priority and therefore does not have a European Environmental Quality Standard (EQS) for Cu (European Commission, 2000; 2008; 2013)".

JPC


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## MichaelJ (9 May 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> Me again!
> 
> Much to my surprise, I read the following in the Canadian document:
> 
> ...



In the US the EPA limit for Cu is a whopping 1.3 ppm (WHO recommended limit is 2.0 ppm).  Quite above the LC50 24 hour lethal limit for most invertebrates, and of course toxicity goes up as pH/KH goes down!  IF you keep dwarf shrimps in tap water always know your Cu levels! In my shrimp tank I keep my Cu level at ~0.02 ppm.

Cheers,
Michael


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## jaypeecee (10 May 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> In my shrimp tank I keep my Cu level at ~0.02 ppm.


Hi @MichaelJ

I guess that you're using the Seachem Copper Test Kit or perhaps not? Out of interest, what are Alkalinity/KH, GH and pH in your shrimp tank?

Thanks in advance.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (10 May 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> IF you keep dwarf shrimps in tap water always know your Cu levels!


Hi @MichaelJ & Everyone,

I picked out one of my Water Company Test Reports (for 2018) and the copper values ranged from 0.01 mg/l to 1.02 mg/l. The PCV* is 2 mg/l.

I choose remineralized RODI** water for the aquatics hobby.

* PCV = Prescribed Concentration or Value
** RODI = Reverse Osmosis De-Ionized

JPC


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## MichaelJ (10 May 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @MichaelJ
> 
> I guess that you're using the Seachem Copper Test Kit or perhaps not? Out of interest, what are Alkalinity/KH, GH and pH in your shrimp tank?
> 
> ...



Hi @jaypeecee.

Yes, I've used the Seachem Copper Test Kit to test the water in my shrimp tank and it was barely detecting anything - for very low levels the test is very hard to perform - I used it more as a sanity check. I use RODI water and the quoted 0.02 ppm of Cu is what I am supposed to get from my traces in that particular tank where KH is <1 and GH ~6.0 and pH 6.5.

My tap water is a different story: My water report from 2021 states that_ 90% of households tested below 0.37 ppm, and none tested "high"_,  _high_  is presumably 80% of the EPA limit or higher.  So the only thing I can safely say is that my tap water Cu level is below 1.0 ppm (which is 80% of  the EPA limit of 1.3 ppm).  Either way, I wouldn't consider my tap water to be suitable for dwarf shrimps - as a matter of fact its potentially lethal. 

Cheers,
Michael


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## Sacul (11 May 2022)

I've put in my order and gone with
CSM+B Trace Elements
KH2PO4
KNO3
MgSO4x7H2O
K2SO4
Preservative E300 
Preservative E202 
Fe 8% DTPA Chelated 

Weekly dose
Nitrate (NO3) 17.5
Phosphate (PO4) 2
Potassium (K) 20
Magnesium (Mg) 7.5
Iron (Fe) 0.4
Total weekly Cu will be 0.003
Hopefully that will be enough


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## Hufsa (11 May 2022)

Sacul said:


> Hopefully that will be enough


Fun times with potion making ahead


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## Sacul (11 May 2022)

Strangely I'm quite excited 🤣


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## Sean Scapes (23 May 2022)

I've just purchased dry salts myself as these all in ones are becoming expensive. I purchased KNO3, KH2PO4, MgSO4x7H2O and CSM+B. Do I need K2SO4? I was under the impression that I would have enough postassium from the other salts. The traces come with preventatives mixed in already. Have I missed something or will I be good to start EI dosing when it all arrives? Its such a mine field lol. 

P.s sorry if i hijack you thread.


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## Wookii (23 May 2022)

Sean Scapes said:


> I've just purchased dry salts myself as these all in ones are becoming expensive. I purchased KNO3, KH2PO4, MgSO4x7H2O and CSM+B. Do I need K2SO4? I was under the impression that I would have enough postassium from the other salts. The traces come with preventatives mixed in already. Have I missed something or will I be good to start EI dosing when it all arrives? Its such a mine field lol.
> 
> P.s sorry if i hijack you thread.



The short answer is,; "it depends, but you should be fine".

The long answer is; it depends on how much KNO3 and KH2PO4 you intend to include in your mix, and what source water you are using.  

If you intend to target traditional EI levels (20-30ppm NO3, 3ppm+ PO4), your K won't hit EI levels also, but there should still be enough for most tanks. 

However it also depends on what source water you are using. Most tap water contains some potassium too, boosting the overall levels, but RO water wont contain any. But then, if you add potassium (bi)carbonate to remineralise the RO, you'll end up with way more potassium that you need.


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## Sean Scapes (23 May 2022)

I'll be using tap water for mixing my ferts. So hopefully I should be fine


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