# Cycle guidance



## _SW19_ (7 Aug 2018)

Hi All,

I've recently delved back into the world of aquariums after a 15 year absence and currently doing a fishless cycle.  Set up is as follows, 125l tank, with Eheim Pro 3, hydor in-line heater, and Juwel helialux LEDs. I’ve got FE CO2 with dual stage regulator and for substrate I have Flourite Black.

Unfortunately, I suffered a leak with the regulator/FE and I'm troubleshooting that (CO2 is not switched on), so I have not yet planted the tank (I wanted to crack on with the cycle), and I will look forward to the fun and games when it comes to planting in a tank full of water 

I started the cycle on 28 July, and I understand I'm looking around 3-6 weeks (in some cases longer or shorter) for completion of the fishless cycle.  

I'm a little unsure around the readings I'm getting from the API test kit around Nitrate and Nitrite and I dont want to stall the cycle.  

Ive been adding Ammonia, so that the bacteria has something to nibble on (usually to bring it to 1ppm), but dont want to keep on adding it, if its going to impact the Nitrate and Nitrite levels. I've seen people mentioning water changes to reduce the NitrIte, and Im not sure what level this is at, since the test kit is maxed out at 5ppm.  Ultimately, I dont want to stall the cycle, so any thoughts, help or reassurance would be hugely appreciated.

*Ammonia*
28 July 4ppm. 
29 July 4ppm. 
30 July 4ppm
31 July 4ppm. 
1 August 3ppm
2 August 0.50ppm
Added Ammonia. 
3 August  0.25ppm
Added Ammonia
3 August 1ppm. 
4 August 0.25ppm
Added Ammonia. 
4 August 1ppm
5 August 0ppm
Added Ammonia. 
5 August in evening 0ppm. 
Added Ammonia
6 August 0ppm
Added Ammonia
7 August 0ppm
Added Ammonia

*PH read* 
27 July     7.6
2 August 7.6
7 August 7.6

*NitrIte*
1 August 2-5ppm
2 August 2ppm
4 august 2-5 ppm
5 August 5ppm
6 August 5ppm
7 August 5ppm

*NitAte*
1 August 20ppm. 
2 August 5ppm
4 August 5ppm
5 August 5ppm
6 August 5ppm
7 August between 0 and 5ppm – couldn’t differentiate between the colours.

Cheers
Simon


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## ian_m (7 Aug 2018)

Looks like cycle may have stalled as ammonia is a powerful disinfectant and readily will kill the bacteria you are intending to grow, I am sure fish less cycling with ammonia causes many more issues than it was rumoured to solve. Urine is much better than ammonia, though don't fall in when doing "a nitrogen top up" , if you insist on dosing ammonia. The (now defunct) sceptical aquarist had the definitive article on this...
https://web.archive.org/web/20160314022344/http://skepticalaquarist.com/fishless-cycling

3-6 weeks is terribly short, tough fish may survive but advice is generally 8-12 weeks will guarantee, no test kits required, to ensure everything has cycled.

Please read this, on why you should not use or trust the readings from hobby grade test kits, they are not really necessary to fish and plant keeping.
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/what-about-test-kits.52487/

Your best bets to get going:
- Get some plants in, they will populate tank with bacteria and help ammonia, nitrite and nitrate removal.
- Add CO2 to the max, as no fish. Yellow drop checker is fine. This will give you ample opportunity to get CO2 levels, flow and distribution sorted.
- Add fertiliser, if using CO2, you need to dose EI levels.
- Keep light levels (and duration) under control, dim those megawatt plant melting LED lights, until CO2 & ferts and plants are all settled in.
- Frequent 50% water changes to remove organic waste and left over fertiliser.
- Patience. So many tanks are ruined by hurrying at the beginning and getting it all wrong...

Some people add garden/weed plant roots into their tank/filter as these are populated with the bacteria you require. Garden soil mixed in with substrate can help, in facts anything dirty/soily will help. Pot of garden soil placed in tank is one way. Oh and patience.


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## paul_j (7 Aug 2018)

Not much to add with my limited experience. But it's important to plant heavily. I threw in a bunch of (cheap) Hornwort and removed it after a few months.


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## dw1305 (7 Aug 2018)

Hi all,
Have a look at <"Do I need to cycle.....">, it gives a bit of an over-view of the nitrogen cycle in planted tanks and links into other threads.

I agree with @ian_m there are a lot of problems with the traditional cycling/ammonia/testing concept, and you only really need to go down the "added ammonia" route if you are going to keep tanks without plants. 

@paul_j I'm a great Hornwort (<"_Ceratophyllum demersum">_) fan as well. I always know when there is a frog in residence in the buckets in because the "spare" Hornwort is really lush (below is "frog in residence"), presumably because of the additional ammonia.

Image from <"Blackworm.......">






cheers Darrel


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## _SW19_ (7 Aug 2018)

Thanks All. 

Ive had a read of the links from earlier- so thank you for sharing.  Darrel, thats a long thread so ill read that when i get home .  I held off with the plants because of the regulator/FE issue I have - I think I'll start with plants this week and see how that goes.  I have ferts etc, and will be using EI.

Is the view, that I should leave the tank as it is currently, and not carry out any water change? Reading on other threads the consensus is that perhaps carry out water changes 2/3 times a week in a planted tank during a cycle - so once I get some plants in, Ill do that water change.

Cheers


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## dw1305 (7 Aug 2018)

Hi all, 





_SW19_ said:


> I held off with the plants because of the regulator/FE issue I have - I think I'll start with plants this week and see how that goes. I have ferts etc, and will be using EI.
> 
> Is the view, that I should leave the tank as it is currently, and not carry out any water change? Reading on other threads the consensus is that perhaps carry out water changes 2/3 times a week in a planted tank during a cycle - so once I get some plants in, Ill do that water change.


I'm a regular water changer, and during the plant settling in process I would definitely change more water. I do about 10% a day, but you could change a larger volume less frequently.

I'm a <"big floating plant fan">, and they would be OK without CO2 (they have access to aerial CO2). I would start with them, one advantage is that they will suck a lot of the ammonia out of the tank water. 

I'm more than happy to send you a mix of floaters, if you would like them? PM me your address, you can have as much you like for £5 to cover p&p. I used to give them away but I belong to a number of forums and the cost became prohibitive. 

cheers Darrel


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## sparkyweasel (7 Aug 2018)

dw1305 said:


> a lot of problems with the traditional cycling/ammonia/testing concept,


Traditional? 
I think of it as new-fangled. 
We never did it "when I were a lad".
You set up your hardscape and equipment on a Sunday. If everything was OK, temp adjusted etc by the following Saturday you went and bought your plants. In those days they would come from fish tanks, so may have been better populated with bacteria and archaea than some we buy today.
By the following Saturday you were ready for your first fish, proceding to stock slowly, usually a pair of fish a week..


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## dw1305 (8 Aug 2018)

Hi all, 





sparkyweasel said:


> Traditional?  I think of it as new-fangled.


Yes, the sacrificial fish method, that is how we used to do it, and once the tank was set up we <"never changed the water">. I had an air pump (which was considered un-necessary by most aquarists), but the air-stone just sat in the tank, and I turned it off every night because it was noisy.

cheers Darrel


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## ian_m (8 Aug 2018)

"When I were a lad" we just used any old silicone we could get our hands on (no B&Q in those day, had to go to a "hardware" shop), even though it had fungicide in it. Fish survived.


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## dw1305 (8 Aug 2018)

Hi all, 





ian_m said:


> "When I were a lad" we just used any old silicone we could get our hands on


My first tank had a metal frame and the glass was held in with glaziers linseed putty.





ian_m said:


> Fish survived.


About a month on average for me then, and looking back I'm amazed they lasted that long

cheers Darrel


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## Aqua360 (8 Aug 2018)

my first "aquarium" was a goldfish bowl with approx. 6-7 goldfish in what must have amounted to 10 litres of water if that. 

Still regret that, and the inevitable suffering of the fish, I'm glad there's more info available to the public these days!


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## sparkyweasel (8 Aug 2018)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, Yes, the sacrificial fish method, that is how we used to do it, and once the tank was set up we <"never changed the water">. I had an air pump (which was considered un-necessary by most aquarists), but the air-stone just sat in the tank, and I turned it off every night because it was noisy.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Only the marine types expected the first fish to be an actual sacrifice, but they had no plants.


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## _SW19_ (18 Aug 2018)

Hi all,

Following on from the advice earlier, I’ve added plants and sorted co2 out. 

Ammonia is 0 and so is Nitrites, been like this for a couple of days now, but nitrates are reading between 40 and 80ppm. 

Do you think a water change to reduce the nitrates would be beneficial?


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## dw1305 (18 Aug 2018)

Hi all,





_SW19_ said:


> but nitrates are reading between 40 and 80ppm.
> 
> Do you think a water change to reduce the nitrates would be beneficial?


Yes, it probably would. As your plant mass grows in it should deplete the NO3 more efficiently.

Do you have nitrate values for your tap water from your water supplier? Because you live in SE England your tap water may contain ~30ppm NO3. 

cheers Darrel


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## _SW19_ (18 Aug 2018)

Nitrate from my tap is 20ppm. 

I’ve got 100l standing by, conditioned with prime, although I understand Prime doesn’t actually remove nitrates, it apparently detoxifies and will release back into the water after a 24 hour period. I’ll probably carry out a water change tomorrow. 

Cheers


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## _SW19_ (20 Aug 2018)

Quick update. 

I’ve carried out a water change yesterday, probably around 90%. 

Today Ammonia was 0, nitrites are 0 but nitrates are 40ppm. But the tap water has nitrates of 20ppm - which I tested before I did the water change. 

I think nitrates at 40ppm will be my standard reading for my tank... 

Apart from plants, is there a more effective ongoing way of reducing nitrates? Should I be worried about a 40ppm as standard?


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## dw1305 (20 Aug 2018)

Hi all, 





_SW19_ said:


> Nitrate from my tap is 20ppm.


Can you post the figures from your water report? It will give a bit of idea of what your tap water is like, although "hard" and "nutrient rich" would be my guess. 





_SW19_ said:


> I’ve got 100l standing by, conditioned with prime, although I understand Prime doesn’t actually remove nitrates, it apparently detoxifies and will release back into the water after a 24 hour period.


The nitrates themselves are actually toxic, and Seachem won't tell you how "Prime/Safe" works, but it is likely to be by complexing the ammonia, and it eventually re-entering the nitrification.  Have a look at <"Seachem Safe">.

You can only remove NO3 in four ways, incorporation into plant tissue, anaerobic denitrification, ion exchange with an ion specific resin or dilution with RO water.

Plants are the best option.





_SW19_ said:


> Should I be worried about a 40ppm as standard?


No.

cheers Darrel


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## GHNelson (20 Aug 2018)

Hi
I wouldn't worry too much about Nitrate levels.....30ppm to 50 ppm is not uncommon in tap water here in the UK!
You could use RO water...to dilute tap water!.....Usually 3 RO units to 1 Tapwater.
Fast growing plants will help to reduce the Nitrate levels...especially stems that will grow semi-submerged!
The below Ludwigia is non Co2 limited...therefore  grow quicker and feed on the in tank Nitrate levels. 




hoggie


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## _SW19_ (20 Aug 2018)

Thanks both.  Water report is attached.

Copied th ebelow readings.
Ammonium as NH4 mg/l Min 0.11 Mean 0.155 Max 0.19
Nitrate as NO3 mg/l         Min 22.6 Mean 27.259 Max 30.8
Nitrite as NO2 mg/l          Min <0.01 Mean 0.012 Max 0.05
Hardness (Total) as CaCO3 mg/l  Min 256 Mean 261.33 Max269

Im actually looking for a mid ground plant with a reddish/green leaf; Ludwigia looks ideal.  Is Ludwigia repens the full name?

Cheers


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## GHNelson (20 Aug 2018)

Hi
I think this is Glandulosa!
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/plantbase/ludwigia-glandulosa.110/
hoggie


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