# Something is eating my Java Ferns - for real! please help



## James France (1 Apr 2019)

Hi guys

So I’ve joined the forum to hopefully solve this issue. I’ve been keeping a planted tank for about 18 months now, first I started with a 20L and now I’ve got a 120L.

I’ve got an Oase Biomaster 350, doing 50% water change weekly, loads of plants, dosing Aquascaper Complete daily, no CO2, not even flourish excel anymore. I’ve got healthy plants and fish, no disease, no deaths thus far, all good. Except now something is eating my Java Ferns, the mini, the large and the trident variety, never the old growth, only ever the new growth as I assume this is softer?

I’ve got 4 Amano Shrimp, a whole colony of RCS, 8 black neons, 8 harlequin rasbora, 4 otocinclus, 9 celestial pearl danios and 2 Siamesse Algae Eaters (flying foxes).

My thoughts are that something is going hungry as it’s only started this past few weeks once I’ve got the tank fully stocked. Now I’ve read all over the internet and people will say it’s a nutrient deficiency, but I’m certain it’s not. All my other plants are healthy, plus there’s new growth on the Java Ferns right next to the bits that are getting eaten! Also, I’ve seen new growth (the darker black parts of the leaf) there one minute and 2 hours later gone! I’m thinking Amano or flying foxes, but could it be the RCSs?

I’ll add some photos and you’ll see leaves just stop at a square end where the new growth has been completely eaten away and stopped the leaf reading full size!

Please help


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## dw1305 (1 Apr 2019)

Hi all,





James France said:


> All my other plants are healthy, plus there’s new growth on the Java Ferns right next to the bits that are getting eaten!


I think you are right, something is nipping the soft green tips off. The SAE would be my guess.

Java fern is pretty unpalatable, so I would think that it is probably the food of last resort. I'd try feeding some vegetables, your _Otocinclus_ will probably need them as there is unlikely to be enough algae to support them with the SAE and shrimps in the tank. I'd try courgette or green pepper, you will probably need to keep it off the bottom to stop the shrimps getting it all.

cheers Darrel


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## James France (1 Apr 2019)

Thanks Darrel

I’ve feed a quarter courgette about once a week along with the daily fish food and some shrimp pellets, do you think I just need to feed more?

The SAEs were the last to go in, would you rule out the shrimp and Otos?

Thanks


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## three-fingers (1 Apr 2019)

I would personally rule out the otos and the RCS, most likely culprits are the Amano shrimp and SAE. I've had the same damage in the past with just SAE but I never saw them eat the plants, I figured they had accidentally broken the growing tips when trying to eat algae from them, I don't think Java fern is tasty enough for them to do it intentionally. Amano shrimp will eat pretty much anything when they are hungry though, and they have a constant appetite, so TBH I think it's most likely the Amanos.

I would try feed some extra cucumber or scatter some shrimp pellets at night. Do you often see the Amano shrimp out and about or do they mainly just hide from the other fish? When you do see them, do their "guts" look full? (You can see the inside of shrimp so if you look carefully you can see if they are finding enough food).


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## PARAGUAY (1 Apr 2019)

I think the SAE, they are pretty adaptable characters and once algae is under control they learn to be first up for fish food, dropping a algae tablet or fresh greens as mentioned,can help, mine took huge lumps out of the Amazon Swords


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## Keith GH (2 Apr 2019)

James


James France said:


> Except now something is eating my Java Ferns,



Do a bit of backtracking when did it start?  What was the last inhabitants you bought.   I had SAE's  for many years and never a problem with them other than as they age they start to prefer given food rather than their natural foods.

Note the little black line going into the  tail this is the true SAE




I have seen the Chinese Algae Eater sold as a SAE just checking if you have the true SAE.




Keith


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## HiNtZ (2 Apr 2019)

I'm betting it's the amanos - mine love hydrocotyle and cardamine! They will literally devour a bush of it in one night.

I have got about 40 shrimp though which doesn't help.


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## James France (2 Apr 2019)

three-fingers said:


> Do you often see the Amano shrimp out and about or do they mainly just hide from the other fish? When you do see them, do their "guts" look full? (You can see the inside of shrimp so if you look carefully you can see if they are finding enough food).



They’ve always been full when I’ve sen them, plus the 2 females are constantly pregnant and dominate most other things in the tank. I think part of the problem is the the RCS have bred like mad so there loads more competition for food now. I’ve sold a batch of RCSs back to the LFS, maybe it’s time for sale No. 2 and 3!


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## James France (2 Apr 2019)

Keith GH said:


> Do a bit of backtracking when did it start?



Ive noticed it over the past 2 weeks really. The tank started in Nov 18, with just Amanos, harlequin rasbora. Then the black neons and the RCS in maybe Dec, then the celestial pearls in Jan (that I just moved out to a new 60L at work yesterday), then the SAEs (definitely SAEs not CAEs) in Jan, then the Otos in Feb. I think maybe I was more vigilant with the weekly courgette in the first few weeks and I’ve dropped off lately. That added to the RCS population explosion means I’ve got a high food demand nowadays. So I’m pretty sure it’s my fault! 

just wondered who the likely culprit is because I was quite liking seeing my trident Java take shape ☹️

It’s either the SAEs because I’ve not fed enough greens and there’s literally zero algae in the tank, never has been. Or the Amanos because they’re being out-competed, but that said, the Amanos have been in since day 1 and this was certainly not happening prior to the SAEs going in when the tank was 3 months old. So . . . The SAEs?


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## James France (2 Apr 2019)

Thanks for all the great feedback tho guys

Actually never joined a forum ever before!


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## rebel (3 Apr 2019)

I would remove the SAE and observe for two weeks. Take photographs of the said plants.

Given that you don't have an algae problem SAE are not that helpful. Hopefully you don't want them for aesthetics.


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## PARAGUAY (3 Apr 2019)

James France said:


> Thanks for all the great feedback tho guys
> 
> Actually never joined a forum ever before!


Thats the great thing about UKAPS you will get members own expireinces. BTW I would never put people off SAEs they do a brilliant job with algae and biofilms and unlike Flying Foxes usually as they age not aggresive . In my case I put it down to as mentioned lack of suitable food so it nibbled new growth off the then very mature Amazon Swords.I know @Keith GH  fed loaches, SAEs . fresh greens and fruit so something to consider?


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## James France (3 Apr 2019)

PARAGUAY said:


> unlike Flying Foxes usually as they age not aggresive



I thought true SAEs were flying foxes?


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## PARAGUAY (4 Apr 2019)

Its a bit confusing but the SAE  (Crossocheilus) is a different species although related to what we know as Flying Fox, not helped by retailers and books describing the genuine SAE as Siamese Flying Fox as log as you can tell the difference your ok. Some Aquascapers use Flying Foxes as algae crews when they are juveniles and rehome as they age. SAEs are peaceful and except for growing large are generally placid.One to  avoid the golden colured  known as the Chinese Algae Eater  or on sale as Golden Flying Fox its aggresive and recommended for specalist fishkeeping


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## alto (4 Apr 2019)

Some fish profiles to consider - ALL of these may ship in under the common name “Siamese algae eater” (and may include some intriguing Latin names  )

https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/epalzeorhynchos-kalopterum/

http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/crossocheilus-atrilimes/

https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/crossocheilus-langei/

https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/crossocheilus-nigriloba/

https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/crossocheilus-burmanicus/

https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/crossocheilus-cobitis/

https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/crossocheilus-latius/

https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/crossocheilus-reticulatus/


While some are obviously different as adults, juvenile fish are much less easy to differentiate
Most are nice community algae eaters as juveniles, some become quite contentious as they mature ... as they are mostly larger fish, many of the behavioural issues “disappear” when kept as a group in larger tanks (I don’t recommend them for any tank under 120cm length, and group of 6 or more)


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## James France (6 Apr 2019)

Yeah, so I have the Langei I think, not the flying fox. Thanks for clearing that up. 

Looking at their profile and given then are currently suspect number 1 in The Who at my Java Ferns mystery, they may be finding a new home. Shame


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## sciencefiction (23 May 2019)

A bit late onto the scene....I wanted to say,dont rule out the shrimp. I have a large population of cherry shrimp which when underfed,eat the new healthy growth of my hydrophila..You have to feed a bit more...


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