# Grow tank?



## James O

No idea what to call the thread....

I want to move on to a larger tank but have a few necessities in other departments to take care of first.  So I was wondering.....

I can lay my hands on a smallish (60L I think) for £0. I was wondering about using it to grow on some plants in the meantime for the big tank which will be low tech.  I might even think about shoving some ferts & CO2 (disposable canister) in there too on the cheap.

Does this sound like a good way of cheaply growing more plants while I wait for my big tank?


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## tim

Yes it does


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## MARKCOUSINS

Agree with Tim very good idea!You could save some money on plants and have better aclimatised,established plants to move to another tank.Cheers Mark


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## James O

Goody!!

This won't be a planted tank per say.  I was thinking substrate on the bottom for those that need it and some sort of removable bars half way up for anubias & java with maybe some moss on mesh.

I was thinking crypt crispatula & betchii petchii along with narrow java, anubias nana & bonsai.


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## MARKCOUSINS

Would be great for carpet plants to build up some ready plant mass


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## James O

Just a simple internal filter should cope.  I thought maybe an oto or 3 and maybe some amano

The anubias can be cable tied and the jave too.

What could I make the bars out of?  Treated presawn timber, alluminium tube maybe?


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## tim

You could just tie the anubias and ferns to suction cups and stick em to the glass they only fall off if they get too big.


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## James O

Simple and perfect Tim!

Must stop overthinking James O!!!!  what a Wally eh?

What do you think about the oto/ amano combo?


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## tim

James O said:


> Simple and perfect Tim!
> 
> Must stop overthinking James O!!!!  what a Wally eh?
> 
> What do you think about the oto/ amano combo?


Simple and cheap like me  amanos would be perfect little cleaners I'd only add ottos if you have a lot of diatoms if not hold off until you get the big tank they can be sensitive little fish when moving tanks.


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## James O

Maybe a zebra nerite for the glass if it gets too green? cleaning around those suckers would drive me mad!


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## Michael W

I was thinking maybe turn this grow tank into an emersed growout tank. You will no doubt find the crypts will do amazingly well in this setup. This will also mean no algae and no snail! You won't have to worry about CO2 and the substrate can be soil based giving it the nutrients needed. All you need to do this keep the tank humid by placing cling film or some sort of lid on top, mist if every now and then and boom almost carefree setup.


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## James O

oooh I'm liking that idea! A couple of questions

Will the anubais, java and mosses cope with that strategy? Is there any detrimental stress on the plants when being moved from emersed to immersed?

Also the free tank appears to have a leak or 3.  Would those large, mostly clear, plastic storage boxes work?  The light will be coming from above so I cant see an issue - are there any?


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## Michael W

The storage boxes will work, I'll be using them for my up coming emersed project. Anubias, java fern and moss will work. You may experience a little melt from emersed to immersed and vice versa. However, growing in emersed setup you will no doubt find some improvement in growth which should cover the amount of melt. The plants you have listed are very hard and should make the transition well. Crypts could potentially melt even if its grown in water in the first place. Most of the plants we get in the large retailers etc are grown emersed so if you find that they have success with placing those in your aquarium, the likely hood is that you won't experience much problems from emersed to immersed. But plants like the ones you have will experience growing out of water in nature. 

The main thing in emersed setups is to keep the humidity up. Having 100% humidity is ideal but a little less is fine. It can be more important to have a high humidity over misting constantly.


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## James O

Great thanks. So emerged only requires light and humidity. They're going to be kept in the bedroom so will be slightly warm but very stable temp. That frees up cash from little filter and heater too!

Java & anubias should be tied as per tank to avoid rotting - might still use the suckers idea for these.


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## James O

Okay. I got an 80L plastic storage box and a piece of glass cut to fit the top.  I'll order a load of suckers as well. 

As I understand it as long as the temp is slightly above room temp there will be humidity.  More questions:

Do I need to constantly add liquid?  I remember my grandmothers bottle garden just needed water 1 or 2 times a month... 
Should I spray the fern/anubias with liquid feed
What soul based substrate will work for cryps -John Inness?


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## Michael W

John Innes will work. I've tried peat and have heard people have success with coco fibre. It has been suggested that as long as you have a good fitting lid you will not have to mist plants often as your keeping the humidity inside. I will mist my emersed cultures if the leaves look dry and when it feel quite cold during the day. I know for sure that you can plant Anubias below the rhizome. Java fern should be the same. 

I would avoid spraying liquid feed on the plants. There have been some comments about liquid ferts causing burns/melt for the leaves. John Innes should provide enough nutrients to last a long while.


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## James O

Righto! I have my box, my glass and this morning my GroBeam 500 arrived courtesy of steveno


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## James O

So having read this emersed anubias blog | grow your anubias emersed, using the easiest way & this AquaScaping World Magazine - Growing Crytocorynes Emersed I reckon I can use gravel and nutrient added to the water.  Or a 3/4 gravel 1/4 compost. Or a ......

Anywhoo I don't think I'll need heat as that much water in an enclosed space with that much light should equals humidity.

The java fern could be just staked to the gravel.  I was thinking of popping my mosses on top of the pots to grow them on as well.

How's that looking?


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## steveno

Hello James,

Happy and a little surprised that it arrive so soon...and good to see it being put to better use than collecting dust under my stair...


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## James O

That word was from our sponsor steveno: a total standup guy, perfect item, communication, packaging & postage!

Now back to our program


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## steveno

LOL... Good luck with the growing box, an ingenious and cheap solution using storage box. You should get fast growth doing a emersed/DSM, when i did mine i used a portable humidifier to get humidity up, worked a charm! you could hook it up to a timer if you get hold a of one that doesn't turn it self off when power is turned off, and have it on for a few minutes every hour or so.


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## James O

I'm doopid, What's DSM?

I think heat mat will be as far as I go if needs be.

Does my growing idea sound....sound?


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## steveno

Dry start method, I used a humidify as I am away alot due to work and family so couldn't ensure humidity by misting daily, I also added alittle fertiliser in to water... 


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## steveno

Certainly seems a good idea starting a growing box/tank should save loads on buying plants...


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## James O

How about adding one of these to keep the air wet?  1pcs 12 LED Ultrasonic Mist Maker Fogger Water Fountain Pond Air Humidifier | eBay


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## Michael W

Yes you can but it is not needed. This guy is an inspiration to me for setting up an upcoming emersed project. throughout this thread he will give information on emersed setups from the questions of the members, it is well worth a read. My collection of Anubias. - Photography - Aquatic Plant Central


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## James O

Yeah he's the chap behind the anubias blog in post #18. A really helpful read both there and on APC


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## steveno

Hello James,

As Michael has suggested you prob. don't need... I only required as away quite offen... So both my tanks are either low tech or pretty much automated including feeding... Lol


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## James O

Okeydokey!  I have most of my hardware. So now the substrate and the feed

I was thinking normal gravel for a few reasons: I already have some (though not afraid of buying something else if better), it's pretty inert, it allows great water (and thus food) circulation due to its large size & plants should be easy to remove & replant.

As for feed I have no idea really. As the plants will be getting loads of CO2 compared to immersed growing and I'll be irradiating them with my blinding new GroBeam 500 I would have thought that increased ferts would be needed. What ferts I'm am at a loss

Help!


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## Michael W

I use a peat substrate with osmocote slow release ferts in the peat. The moist/damp environment should trigger the release of the ferts. Its also cheap as you get a lot


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## James O

hit Living Waters this morning  I wanted to go and talk to someone rather than just order online. Great guys! let me jabber away with many questions and they really helped to fill in the gaps in my knowledge.

I left a little bit poorer, but with a little stock for my 'grow tank' - I think I might have a thing for anubias 

 

starting with the top row:
left: crypt. Spiralis - right : crypt. blassii
left: anubias short'n'sharp - right: anubias nana
left: anubias gold - right: anubias petite
left: anubias petite - right: anubias petite
left: microsorium mini - right: microsorium needle

The ferns were submerged so they suggested cutting the bottom of the bag of to allow access to water but keeping the top on for a week or two to reduce shock when I transfer them to emersed growing

they are all in about an inch of washed gravel to allow pots to have their height adjusted (ie smaller or deeper planted pots)

I gave them RO water with easy-life profito and will change it out once or twice a fortnight.

Who's a happy boy then?


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## Michael W

Looking nice! Another method of the bag method could be the use of bottles, you can cut the bottle in half and use both halves turned upside down to make a dome. Both bag and bottle works the same, just for aesthetic reasons


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## James O

I added some of that sticky back foam for sealing windows & doors to the edge of the tub.  Its totally sealed now so will see what happens.

Really want to get a thermometer in there and maybe one outside to see if I can expect humidity.  then maybe a teeny-tiny heater to get the temp up a touch.


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## Michael W

Hi James,

One way in which I see people create humidity is just place an aquarium heater at the bottom of the emersed setup, this will heat up the water and the evaporation will provide humidity.


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## James O

Yeah I was thinking of buying a 25w jobby and laying it horizontally.  theres so little water and airspace in there it shouldn't need much juice to get it going


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## James O

Bought a diddly 25w heater and 2 thermometers.  The foggy looking one is inside the clear one outside.  There wasn't much of a temp difference (1deg maybe?) so I added the heater.  It's laying down inside a length of plastic angle (the long thin white line alongside the heater).  I cut it a touch shorter than the storage box and drilled some holes for extra water movement.  The angle stops the gravel resting on the heater. 

This pic was taken after about 5min of having the heater on with condensation forming already


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## James O

Oh a question if I may?

Shall I turn the heater off overnight along with the light?


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## GHNelson

No Picture mate.
Its got a thermostat hasn't it?....the heater.
hoggie


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## James O

Fixed!  Sorry about that.  

Yes it has selectable temp and a thermostat


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## James O

hogan53 said:


> Its got a thermostat hasn't it?....the heater.
> hoggie



Would that mean I can leave it running all night?


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## tim

James O said:


> Would that mean I can leave it running all night?


Shouldn't cause any issues it'll cut in and out as the surrounding water reaches temperature.


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## James O

Thanks. Wanted to be sure I understood that as it's running in reduced water level 

What about light timings?  At the moment it's turned on manually around 7am and off when I go to bed around 11pm


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## tim

Long as it's covered with water should be fine, it may well turn on and off more so you could expect a shorter life span, photoperiod will be fine I ran a wabi kusa on a 6am- 11-12pm photoperiod and was all good.


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## James O

Groovy!  Let the growing begin.....


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## James O

This morning all walls and glass lid were covered with condensation.  The thermometers registered a maybe 2deg oC difference from inside to out (20deg outside & 22deg inside air temp)  

The heater is set to 24 degrees so I might bump it up a touch


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## James O

Quick update: Smells like the Palm House at Kew, all warm, damp and fertile    All the Anubias are happily opening new leaves and I think I have a flower on the way.  The crypts. haven't melted yet either 

Am going to swap over one of the Microsorum to an upturned plastic bottle to see what happens.   

A quick question - How many plants can I stuff in there?  Does it matter if they touch?  Obviously I'd avoid heavy shading of other plants.  It's just I keep seeing bits and bobs on the sale/swap/want thread and I would ideally end up with excess for my big tank.  Excess = Choice


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## Michael W

Go a head and stuff the box!


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## James O

Oh goody!  Let the collecting of random plants begin


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## Michael W

Good thing about growing emersed is you can grow things that you can't normally grow in a low tech tech. I'm planning on setting emersed displays in the future. You can try to grow some more difficult plants in your setups and use the emersed box as a back up supply for you to try over and over again should you fail.


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## James O

Interesting idea.  A self replenishing organic 'redundancy bank'.  That will be very helpful as I'm sure I can see a failure or two in my future......


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## James O

Well I've started collecting!

4x crypts, 3x microsorum & 3x anubias 

 I got to wondering how emersed growing compares to say a CO2 or liquid carbon submerged setup?  Would the microsorum, for example, be happier submerged?


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## James O

Added a small pump to circulate the water as it was getting a touch scuzzy.

 Plants are still in rockwool in their pots.  Some are single plants but several are 2 or 3 in a pot. I'm thinking of moving them singly to pots with clay balls as substrate.  This should offer improved flow for the roots and more room to grow larger.

Do you think this would be a better idea than the rockwool?


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## Michael W

Hi James,

Its hard to say if a plant prefers submerged of emersed, but they should grow faster emersed. Apparently some plants should at some point in their life time spend some time out of water - Don't remember where I have read that from.

Many suppliers grow emersed plants in rock wool as it does well in soaking up water for the plants. I think you can substitute if for something like cat litter - foxfish mentioned this in another thread too, I have certainly grew plants successfully in cat litter, I know some will use coconut coir as a growing media for plants too! I can't say which is the best as all the plants I've ever kept emersed came from my aquarium and before I planted it in the tank I would have removed the wool. But you can perhaps experiment with it in your setup and report back in the thread.


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## James O

Well I've been to a local hydroponics place to buy 40 mesh pots for uniformity. It seems in Brighton lots of people are interested in fast efficient plant growing.......

I decided to update the internal layout. Using gravel as a medium to cope with various pot heights was a pain in the whatsits. As the base of the storage box isn't uniformly flat I needed something to create a level base. Wood? No. Metal? No. Plastic? maybe. Glass? YES!! So I had another piece cut to fit the bottom of the box.

Once home I removed the plants and gravel and also washed the gravel. As an experiment I subdivided the Anubias Petite as there where couple of rhizomes per pot. I split these out of the rockwool and popped them into new pots with gravel as substrate holding the roots with the rhizome just above the edge of the pot. The gravel also means the post stay where you put 'em! Will see how this all pans out.

 
Glass bottomed box

 
Lots more room and expandability without the gravel

 
3 Anubias Petite become 7


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## James O

More plants!  4x Crypt. W. Petchii, 3x Anubias N. petite (which need dividing) & 3x Microsorum 'narrow' - all tropica plants so in very nice condition 

Am going to see how plants progress before messing about any more.  Am a little concerned that the gravel is too heavy for roots and may look at clay or cat litter depending.


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## James O

Okay I lied!  Started playing again......

Well washed Tescos cat litter is way lighter but runs out the slots in the pots so I doubled up and partially obscured the slots with another pot.  It fills in well but a little tends to find its way out now and then.  I devided up the tropica plants I received (amazing quality btw) and now have 18 Anubias n. Petite 

I'll be receiving another 12 cryptocorynes from a member here and think I'll move all the crypts to another tank (60cm 55l).  Here's the question: what would these be best grown in? Submerged with John Innes no.3 substrate, emerged with the same, emerged/submerged cat litter with osmocote tabs. Would growing them on submerged be of benifit when it comes to transplanting them to the main tank?  

Any answers much appreciated. Lots of reading has led me to information saturation......


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## James O

Update time:

some of my Anubias n petite have suffered catastrophic failure. A white furry mold type thing has taken nearly half my stock.
 
A little reading and it seems that my tank was just too damp. I hadn't been taking the lid of to play and so the air was extremely damp and they werent drying off. None of the affected rhizomes were underwater or even in the water. I shall be opening the lid and wafting in fresh air once a day now. This is how the Anubias box looks now with several new A. nanas added:
 
And that time will be when I swap the light over to my new emersed grow box!!! I got a load more Crypts and decided to give them a box all of their own. I split up 2 pots and am trying them in separate containers. Once has tescos cat litter and Osmocote and the other is john innes no.3.
 
I've read that plants have emergent and submerged type leaves and so was wondering about submerging the Crypts to minimise leaf loss on transfer to main tank. What do you guys think?


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## Michael W

Looking good mate! Do what you feel is right, the good thing about emersed in my opinion is that when you go to submerge you are going to submerge a lot of plants, even if you lose lots of leaves here and there you will make up with the number of plants you now have. Its not like the plant will necessarily die, if kept nicely new submerged leaves will growth out.


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## James O

Happy Anubias n. Gold  two more are flowering as well!


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## James O

EMERGENCY!!!!

A couple more of my anubias are getting thins white fuzz mold stuff growing on them. As the mold is only above water level I'm going to flood the tank to save what I have left.

Any other suggestions?


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## Michael W

You can try to flood the thing and reduce the water level again.


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## James O

Michael W said:


> You can try to flood the thing and reduce the water level again.



Thanks Michael.

I think I'll leave it flooded over the weekend.  I've read that excel has been used to clear up the mold on HC grown emersed.

I might then grow emersed with the lid open a crack

How does that sound to you?


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## Michael W

Are you suggesting excel while flooded or using it on the plant while its emersed? I would avoid the latter as it will in my opinion cause melt, otherwise it should be fine but then I never experienced this before.

You can place the lid lightly on top of the container, shouldn't be a problem.


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## James O

It was suggested as a sort of foliage spray in a watered down mix for emersed growing.

I'll start by lifting the lid at one end with a pen or similar

How long do you think I should leave the plants submerged?


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## Michael W

James O said:


> It was suggested as a sort of foliage spray in a watered down mix for emersed growing.


 
I have doubts with the suggestion, I tend to believe excel and its similar counter parts are quite lethal stuff. 




James O said:


> How long do you think I should leave the plants submerged?


 
Not sure to be honest, I myself would flood for a day then low the levels again.


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## James O

Reduced the water level right down.  I've moved some of the Anubias n. Petite that was looking a bit dodgy to a full running tank in hope of saving them.  I'm running with the lid raised at one end and this is reducing the level of moisture on the lid and walls.  Hopefully this is the end of it but I'll check daily


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## James O

Still having white fuzz issues with my Anubias so have flooded it permanently.  The others that I moved to running tanks have suffered no losses so I'll continue this with future anubias purchases

The Cryps on the other hand are doing rather well. The ones planted into John Innes No.3 are sending up leaves galore


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## ourmanflint

Nice thread James! Have just been down to Living Waters myself today to pick up a few rarer crypts to grow on ready for my next tank. How are your crypts doing with this set up? 
Cheers
Rod


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## James O

Cheers Rod!

All are doing well but for exceptional growth stick them into john Innes #3


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