# 2 filters and external pump connected together?



## mjbarnard (23 Feb 2011)

Is it feasible to connect 2 external filters and an external pump together through a manifold type arrangement for return to two bulkheads in drilled holes in the bottom of a tank? 

Two eheim (2073) filters and an external pump – in closed loop from 2 drains and 2 returns in the bottom of the tank. The pump will provide a separate loop through a CO2 reactor. Is it possible to connect the three devices – 2 filters through a Y plumbing connection, and then that into a 4 way connector together with the 3rd pump, and then the two outputs from the 4 way to two bulkheads in the tank base? The idea is to mix temperature and CO2.

Obviously I will put one way check valves on the output of each device to prevent one pushing into another. My (sorry uninformed) question is – if the three pumps have different pressures, does that matter if they are connected in a Y and X fashion with one way check valves? Would a higher pressure from the standalone pump interfere with the output from the two filters (given check valves)? In flow terms and mixing would this be counter-productive or inefficient compared with plumbing separate returns to each bulkhead?


----------



## ceg4048 (23 Feb 2011)

Hi,
    The output of each pump will tend to back-pressure the output of the others, so although the check valves will prevent reverse flow, there will be a resistance in the manifold which will reduce the output of each pump. The only way to minimize this effect is to increase the manifold diameters significantly.

Cheers,


----------



## mjbarnard (24 Feb 2011)

Thanks both. I plan to adapt the design accordingly.

Corki - I posted this on several forums as it is a bit of an unusual question. Interestingly the only informative replies I received were on UKAPS and BIDKA - both UK non-reef forums. I posted it on reefcentral.com, which is an acknowledged excellent plumbing resource for reefers, and didnt receive any replies at all!


----------



## niru (24 Feb 2011)

mjbarnard said:
			
		

> Interestingly the only informative replies I received were on UKAPS and BIDKA - both UK non-reef forums. I posted it on reefcentral.com, which is an acknowledged excellent plumbing resource for reefers, and didnt receive any replies at all!



Well, UKAPS rocks


----------



## foxfish (24 Feb 2011)

I would need to understand your diagram before I can help!
Could you show the complete circuit including the tank connections & where your Co2 reactor will be placed?


----------



## wearsbunnyslippers (24 Feb 2011)

quite a few people do this with eheims. i am sure i have seen a setup where ada is doing this...

kinda like this:





and even how you should distribute the media:


----------



## mjbarnard (24 Feb 2011)

Thanks for your continued interest/offers of help.

I will need to hone my graphics skills to prepare and post up a graphic of the complete circuit. Will do this, however part of the issue is that there isnt a completed plan yet - the final layout is yet to be determined and will be subject to feedback such as from this thread.

Basic setup :
Approx 450 Litre tank (500l without substrate etc).

4 drilled holes in BASE of tank which will have 25mm bulkheads.

2 Eheim 2073 Pro 3 filters.

Each eheim filter attached to a Hydor 300 external inline heater.

Basic plan : Drain from 2 holes in bottom of tank. Each drain goes to one eheim filter. Eheim filter goes to separate hydor heater. Each eheim circuit then connected to return in BOTTOM of tank (4 holes total - 2 drain to eheim, 2 return to tank).

CO2 : Pressurised CO2 with Aquamedic 1000 reactor. Originally was planning to simply put reactor in line with one of the eheim filters. Can still do this - and from above comments this might be easiest. However was considering adding in a third circuit with a standalone pump to drain from one of the two drain holes (shared with an eheim pump) and return to a manifold type setup as described previously where both eheim pumps, and the standalone all mix together. The idea was to 1) relieve the head pressure/resistance on one of the eheims by taking the CO2 reactor off its output, and 2) achieve a degree of mixing in terms of CO2 and temperature.

Hope that's clear. Will draw a diagram and post it later. Also the layout is not fixed. In terms of comments already made, am considering going back to original plan with two separate circuits, each with filter and heater, and one of which has reactor. Or alternatively trying to drain from one single bulkhead, and then have 3 completely separate return circuits to the the three remaing holes. Does anyone think that is feasible?

Other than the 25mm bulkheads - all other plumbing sizes are flexible. Not yet purchased and could use any size beyond the bulheads - 30, 40 etc.


----------



## mjbarnard (24 Feb 2011)

Option 1:





Option 2:


----------



## mjbarnard (24 Feb 2011)

3rd option (dont think it's realistic)


----------



## foxfish (24 Feb 2011)

OK - a few questions for you - how will you stop fish, shrimps etc from entering the inlets inside the tank?
How do you plan to distribute the returning C02 enriched water inside the tank?
Have you thought about retuning the filtered water higher up rather than from the bottom?
Have you considered fitting a sump instead?


----------



## mjbarnard (24 Feb 2011)

1) There will be an inlet strainer, similar to those widely used in marine tanks, and in North America.

2) CO2 distribution either via Hydor Koralia powerhead, or by option 2 where CO2 water is mixed with outputs from other two pumps, or by option 1 where intake to each filter will be at the opposite end of tank from the return for that filter. Also I have already purchased CO2 splitter connected to regulator, so can add in second CO2 reactor to second filter. Have been considering that as well.

3) The returns will be via Loclines - widely used in USA. So higher up than base of tank, depending on height of Locline. Have considered over the top return (which I use in current tank), but prefer totally concealed method without over the rim hose.

3) Have considered a sump. But opted for excess (over) filtration with external canister filters for several reasons. Mainly so as not to waste/lose CO2 in sump flow/surface area, and secondly for ease, simplicity and convenience.

Many thanks again
Matthew


----------



## mjbarnard (24 Feb 2011)

Corki - 
Yes, keen to have optimal flow rate. That was another reason I planned in third standalone pump carrying CO2 as well. This would take flow rate well above required. If I dont do this will add in Koralia powerhead.


----------



## foxfish (24 Feb 2011)

I am not familiar with  Loclines but, I would be concerned about trying to clean inlets situated at the bottom of the tank.
To successfully run a planted tank you really need to concentrate on the even distribution of the gas, this is almost critical & probably the most important aspect.
Of course I have no idea how you plan to set out your scape but a very efficient way to distribute the gas is from a full length spray bar set near the top of the tank & then add additional flow from another pupm.
If you plan on any larger plants then they may effect the gas distribution if you return at a low level.
I am just speculating until we know more about you design   
However there are quite a few of us who run sumps & dont have any issues about losing to much gas, C02 is not that expensive if you have a decent source anyway!
I am all up for new designs rather than the traditional methods - just make sure you get good C02 distribution have you looked into external atomisers?


----------



## mjbarnard (24 Feb 2011)

You guys are very helpful - thanks! As someone said earlier on the thread, the UK forums seem more useful than some of the better known international ones. 

1) The loclines are for the return to the tank from the filters/pump, not the drain to the filters. The outputs from these can be at any height within the tank (via pipe from the bulkhead). I can attach the exact same inlet drainage strainer as is supplied with the eheim filters if I wanted to, so not worried about maintenance of input to filters.

2) Very aware of importance of CO2 distribution. This is in essence why I started this thread, and contemplated mixing the output from the filters and CO2 reactor. It is also why, having searched similar setups, I took the precaution of buying a robust CO2 splitter, so that I could add a second reactor and add CO2 to both returns if necessary.

3) Return via Loclines is higher than base of tank, and more complex than I have let on. Each Locline splits into two, and terminates in a wide nozzle. The Locline design means that the flow can be directed in any direction desired, and the four outputs should ensure a fairly even distribution.

4) I am very aware of sumps. However I opted for external filters. I am aware that a sump would be more efficient in terms of filtration and total volume, but chose filters for several reasons. The tank will be in the living room, and while I have studied Durso's and the "Herbie" drain, I believe that closed loops will be more straightforward. There are other reasons as well. I appreciate that a sump confers advantages which I will not realise.

5) Have actually purchased an external atomiser via ebay (the only equipment paraquatics couldnt supply). I was originally planning to add it into the second loop on option 1, given that I already have  a CO2 splitter. I was interested to see what it would do to CO2 levels. I have access to very sophisticated CO2 measurements.

Corki :
1) The tank was planned with the help of fishfurfeathers. There are pretty straightforward connections between bulkhead, "adapter socket", and hosetail. Actually I can connect the bulkhead to any size pipe/connector I want, via reducers/couplers, and then attach 16/22 hose via the adapters and hosetail. This shouldnt pose a problem

2) Appreciate your advice re complexity. Am inclined to opt for two simple closed loops, and add Koralia as you suggest.

3) Agree regarding simplicity. Am tempted however to design system with minimal resistance in terms of bends,right angles etc. This is part of the challenge!

4) Will get the bulkhead details. The tank height is 60cm. The length of inlet and outlet pipes is partly up to me. Inside the tank, I can choose any level. Below the tank, there will be approx 10cm plumbing, and then connections to the filter hoses. 

Thanks again for your input.
Matthew


----------



## mjbarnard (24 Feb 2011)

I should add. I have been researching since April last year (almost full time!). Ordered custom tank in October. It is finally being delivered next week.

I have sorted plants, substrate, fish, lighting, nutrition, CO2 and almost all other aspects of the tank. I have two CO2 cylinders ready to run, a medical grade regulator and CO2 splitter (http://www.wolflabs.co.uk/Regulators_Multistage_West_Group_NTC.htm)  and almost everything else. All the equipment has now been delivered, except for the plumbing connections...

It is only the plumbing design which still eludes me!! Frustrating....


----------



## foxfish (25 Feb 2011)

Using two separate circuits is definitely a better option - full stop!

You can use flexible pipe to smooth out the water flow, look for ribbed suction pipe, this type of pipe will hold its shape & can be chemically bonded to PVC ridged pipe fittings.

If this was my project, I would still consider the feed pipe situation, I really need to see your plan or a picture of these Loclines.

I have used side drilled tank sytems before, two holes drilled at mid water in one end, one sucking one returning.
this method sent a really good circular flow around the tank.

I have been meaning to try fitting an "UP" atomiser in front of a basic reactor to see how efficient this would be but in fact, one benefit of the UP atomiser is the actuall mist it produces!
Not because the mist is more effective than a completely dissolved C02 mix but, because you can trace the mist around the tank & this give the most accurate indication of real flow.


----------



## foxfish (25 Feb 2011)

Hey corki, I do agree about the back pressure, 1.7 bar required I believe & yes some of us had the same problem with Co2 lines blowing off.
I replaced all my lines with PVC irrigation pipe that is design to operate up to 6 bar & glued all connections = all is well now


----------



## mjbarnard (25 Feb 2011)

Journal - yes will post one. In the planning stages I got some useful help and advice from Mark Evans and he made the same comment. However this tank is going to take some time to establish, so I am planning to take a series of pictures over time, and then post a journal once it's established. People seem to want the finished product after all!

Regulator - got a dual stage, because although current setup is rainbowfish, the new tank will at some stage house Discus. So couldnt take the risk of emptying the cylinder when it gets low. The regulator attaches to needle valves and solenoid.

Paraquatics - they were brilliant! I must post a separate thread mentioning this. Actually I live in West London, but they were the only supplier who could not only source everything I listed from a long complex list, but did so in a very short time and at the lowest cost I was quoted! Gary was fantastic, emailing me every day in response to queries or updates. Thoroughly recommend them.

Advice - Thanks both for the advice, especially the definitive answer to use two separate circuits. I am sure you are right, and will now proceed on this basis. Reassuring about the experience you describe with side drilled tanks, and interesting take on the use of CO2 mist. Might try it for this reason.

Thanks again
Matthew


----------



## mjbarnard (26 Feb 2011)

One final thought. In order to maximise flow and distribution, would there be any harm in plumbing both drain holes into a common pipe and take the filter inlets off that? With appropriate sizes shouldnt restrict inlet flow, and should be easy to arrange so that each filter can be isolated and maintained separately.


----------



## foxfish (26 Feb 2011)

I guess you could but without sounding negative   I am still tying to work out what is the benefit from drilling holes in you tank  compared to going over the top?


----------

