# Melts/Algae on U Graminifolia.. salvaging a carpet in making



## niru (10 May 2012)

Hi All

I am having trouble getting UG to take hold in my tank. 

Its a 180 litre, 90W T5HO (2+ yrs old) tubes, EI, > 10X filteration flow with spray bars, and heavy CO2 (>7bps) that comes 3+ hrs before lights and goes out 2 hrs before light off. The tank is heavily planted with rotalas, pogostomon, limnofilia, Stauro, Alternanthera, etc.., has akadama substrate with peat, osmocote, laterite, zeolite bottom. All other plants are doing exceedingly well, except UG. 

I recently did a new scape (journal in planning). Wanted UG as foreground carpet. The tropica UG pots started melting and got lots of green threadlike algae. Thought it was a new setup imbalance issue. Filters are matured though. I use small grain akadama for UG and the area gets unshaded light. 

Recently added big pots of UG once again (Dennerle + tropica), but to no avail. The frontmost UG patches are melting and looks like algae are taking them once again. I dont know how to save these. I dose EasyCarbo, but cant overdose since I found Didiplis Diandra getting affected by this. Flow is quite strong all through the tank.

Any ideas? Anyone?

-niru


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## ceg4048 (10 May 2012)

*Re: Melts/Algae on U Graminifolia.. salvaging a carpet in ma*

Hi mate,
            I'm not 100% certain but it seems like UG might not really like liquid carbon. Normally it just disintegrates so it surprises me to hear that it got attacked by algae on it's way out.

Cheers,


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## niru (10 May 2012)

*Re: Melts/Algae on U Graminifolia.. salvaging a carpet in ma*

Hey Clive!

yes. I had read that UG doesnt like carbo.. so didnt try it initially. But then algae was taking over.. so tried this as last resort. Hasnt helped though. Now I have stopped it.

The UG sits under the full force of water from spray bar. I also read somewhere that it doesnt mind the flow, rather likes it because it gets its micro-preys to devour that way. Plus akadama is inert, so its not over-nutrition from roots for this plant (I dose EI though). I know it takes time to root itself in the substrate (abt 3 weeks or so), but its past that now, and algae seems to take a liking to it. I dont have this algae anywhere else in the tank. 

I am at the end of my wits to salvage this.. I want a good carpet lawn.. so no HC or glosso.. I have Pillwort at the other end of the tank, its slow grower but has taken a good footing. Neither Tropica nor Dennerle seem to work here. 

Only Knott knows how Oliver manages such lush green carpets, and of course Tom the Brain-of-Plants!

-niru


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## Aquadream (10 May 2012)

*Re: Melts/Algae on U Graminifolia.. salvaging a carpet in ma*

Hi niru.

UG does not like Easy Carbo??? I beg to differ. The problem has to be elsewhere. Look at the pictures. I have grown this UG first in hydroponics box. Later as I did not have any space for it I put it in the tank. My opinion on this is reduce the CO2 a bit. 7bps sounds a lot to me. UG does not tolerate well severe drop in PH.
My pots with UG are grown on AS powder.


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## ceg4048 (10 May 2012)

*Re: Melts/Algae on U Graminifolia.. salvaging a carpet in ma*

Cheers,





			
				Aquadream said:
			
		

> UG does not like Easy Carbo??? I beg to differ. The problem has to be elsewhere.


No, it doesn't necessarily have to be somewhere else. The toxicity of liquid carbon has to do with the level of tolerance AND concentration levels. This is why some people wipe out their Vallis with liquid carbon, while others report no difficulty at all. It can depend therefore on how much of this stuff you are dosing. If the OP was dosing EasyCarbo to control algae, he may easily have been using a concentration level which is considered an overdose and which was higher than what you were using while other plants did not respond negatively, this plant may have. I have not said absolutely this is the case, just that it is a possibility that ought not to be thrown out. I'm looking at the _correlation_ between the addition of the product and the decline of the UG.

Similarly, pH may not necessarily be to blame. I've grown it at pH of 6 and below. In any case one cannot automatically assume that the pH is low just based on a reported bubble count (although it may be. The OP has to verify). If the OP's water has a high KH the pH may not be driven that low. His bubbles may not be as large as someone else's bubbles.

Those are spectacular looking UG.   How much of the EasyCarbo were you dosing and what size was the tank?



			
				niru said:
			
		

> Only Knott knows how Oliver manages such lush green carpets, and of course Tom the Brain-of-Plants!


It's not that big of a deal mate. I've grown it then wiped it out "possibly" due to too much liquid carbon. I did not investigate further. 

Others have grown it without much of a fuss. Check here=> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=749
You haven't really identified the algae. Excel does not work on all algae types so you might have been barking up the wrong tree if it is not a CO2 related algae. It could easily have been that you had too much light and perhaps the UG needed to be shaded until it got established. These are the same reasons as usual.

Cheers,


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## Aquadream (10 May 2012)

*Re: Melts/Algae on U Graminifolia.. salvaging a carpet in ma*



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> If the OP's water has a high KH the pH may not be driven that low. His bubbles may not be as large as someone else's bubbles.


Well if the KH was very high this could be another reason for the UG to fail. UG is difficult to keep above 5KH.
About the CO2 bubbles I asume the counter is normal size, not nano size since the tank is relatively big.



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Those are spectacular looking UG.   How much of the EasyCarbo were you dosing and what size was the tank?


In the tank from the above pictures is 330L. The Easy Carbo is used with the maximum of the recommended dose 1ml per 50L of water.
In one of my older scapes I used twice that amount (2ml per 50L of water) and had a huge hill with UG. The scape is from IAPLC 2011 #280. 



Perhaps niru can tell us what are all of the water parameters in his tank. That way we could suggest some solution if possible.
I can also share the water parameters in which I grow UG. Perhaps more info will be helpfull for niru.


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## niru (10 May 2012)

Hi all

My tap kH is 16+, pH is 8. This is fairly stable, though I have ceased using kits for tank. The DC is line and placed at diagonal corner from CO2 spraybar, behind Rotala bush. So it's a good amount. I don't want to reduce it as other plants will suffer. Tubes are around 3 yrs old.

Should I shade the UG? I spot dosed carbo on my 1st batch of Tropica UG, but not on 2nd. 

Will try getting some pics. AquaDream, I have read your posts on UG. That's a great crop yield! Impressive. 

Clive, the algae is kind of filamentous green one that doesn't seem to spread to other plants.


I have always suffered with carpet plants. 

niru


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## Aquadream (10 May 2012)

*Re: Melts/Algae on U Graminifolia.. salvaging a carpet in ma*



			
				niru said:
			
		

> Hi all
> 
> My tap kH is 16+, pH is 8. This is fairly stable, though I have ceased using kits for tank. The DC is line and placed at diagonal corner from CO2 spraybar, behind Rotala bush. So it's a good amount. I don't want to reduce it as other plants will suffer. Tubes are around 3 yrs old.
> 
> ...


KH of 16+ may be way too high for UG. Try to reduce it at least down to 5 if you want to keep nice UG. When you see that algae just pull it out. I use to get some small amounts in the set up period.


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## niru (12 May 2012)

*Re: Melts/Algae on U Graminifolia.. salvaging a carpet in ma*

Hi
 below is a pic from my tank. The UG on left is newly added, while the one on right shows algae takeover and a bit of melting.




I cant/dont want to change the kH of my water as I never have had any issues with other plants growing in it, and have a good CO2 flowing in.


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## ceg4048 (13 May 2012)

*Re: Melts/Algae on U Graminifolia.. salvaging a carpet in ma*

Hi niru,
           Fundamentally, melting and thread algae are rooted in poor CO2 uptake. That's a given. So if we start there then we have to follow that path to it's logical conclusion. 

Aquadream could be on to something there. It could be that a high alkalinity interferes with the ability of some plants to fix carbon, while in other plants such as vallis, alkalinity actually improves carbon fixation. So your only options, if you don't want to try lowering the KH, are to a) increase the injection rate even more than it is now,  b) to significantly reduce the light intensity, or c) to add more liquid carbon.

Since I have a suspicion about option c) I would probably choose to go in the direction of options a) and/or b).

Cheers,


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## FreshWater Shrimp (13 May 2012)

*Re: Melts/Algae on U Graminifolia.. salvaging a carpet in ma*

Right, I had UG in KH12 but loads of CO2 it was growing well. 0 Fish or Shrimp though.


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## niru (14 May 2012)

*Re: Melts/Algae on U Graminifolia.. salvaging a carpet in ma*



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Hi niru,
> Fundamentally, melting and thread algae are rooted in poor CO2 uptake. That's a given. So if we start there then we have to follow that path to it's logical conclusion.
> 
> Aquadream could be on to something there. It could be that a high alkalinity interferes with the ability of some plants to fix carbon, while in other plants such as vallis, alkalinity actually improves carbon fixation. So your only options, if you don't want to try lowering the KH, are to a) increase the injection rate even more than it is now,  b) to significantly reduce the light intensity, or c) to add more liquid carbon.
> ...



Cheers Clive!

thats what i did over the weekend, increase CO2 further.. Light is abt 3 yrs old, and the tubes are not exactly spot clean..  so i guess PAR is small enough though I dont have a meter for this.. I noticed that the UG in the backside is slowly taking hold. The one near the front glass isnt. Since akadama is a very light substrate, that isnt helping either in the strong flow rates.. Plus I had a random loonies of wild snails that crept in with new plants. They are also busy burrowing them below front UG. I have now moved the akadama a bit so as to make small hillocks that shade UG from the strong flow, and am removing dozens of snails a day. Hopefully things will improve??

BTW got RC shrimps from a Scottsman living in Basel. 30 of them.. Funnily they come in all coloured varietes not just red. This guy told me that the original red ones bred in his tank with rainbow coloured babies. Some are even transparent...

As an aside, CO2 cylinders are bloody expensive in Switzerland. The lfs asks for CHF 100 deposit & CHF 50 for 2 kilo refill!!! That lasts only about a month with my bps rate. Its alarmingly expensive. Plus the "swiss" regulations (also on mainland EU) mean I cant easily get hold of FE cylinders.. 

Will keep you updated (on UG, not Swiss regulations)

cheers
niru


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## ceg4048 (15 May 2012)

*Re: Melts/Algae on U Graminifolia.. salvaging a carpet in ma*



			
				niru said:
			
		

> .. Light is abt 3 yrs old, and the tubes are not exactly spot clean..  so i guess PAR is small enough though I dont have a meter for this...


Hi mate,
     This is not really a good assumption, and like you say, only a meter can tell you the truth of how much PAR you have. I don't think the age of the bulbs has much relevance. There is certainly enough PAR to grow algae. PAR drives the CO2 and nutrient uptake demand, so if our assumption is valid, that we are stifling CO2 uptake via high alkalinity, then lowering the PAR will also lower the uptake demand and will allow more margin. Therefore, the combination of reduced PAR + increased CO2 availability always works better than either factor alone.

Cheers,


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## niru (15 May 2012)

*Melts/Algae on U Graminifolia.. now with tank picture*

Ok Clive! Advice taken.

Will remove the reflectors.. Since the tank is Juwel, lights cant be lifted up.. will try some floating plants.. but thats tricky as the full force of spray bar jets wont allow them to stay put.. Or even put some shadings between water and lights. 

BTW, the lights arent causing any algae anywhere else in the tank.. Stauro carpet on the other half of tank is getting along very nicely.. I have removed affected UG as much as I can. 

Below is a latest pic of the tank (photo taken from my phone, so ignore the crap quality, tank is no where as bright as it looks here). I intend to make a journal of setting this scape.. but time is a big killer. Have to work during office hours! 





-niru


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