# UP Inline Diffuser query?



## Bertie (24 May 2013)

Hi,
I installed a UP Inline Diffuser today (could be a fake). Now I assume that because it needs more pressure because of the way it works, that it will need an increased bubble rate is that correct?

The reason that I ask is that I am now using 6bps and at the moment the DC is still blue!

I changed over to a long diy spray bar along the back wall at a depth of about 2", with a New Wave 1.6 running at 800lph each at either end and a cheap 200lph submersible in the middle. There appears to be good flow but there is a good few bubbles reaching the surface.

It appears I may have to use a lot more bps for this inline method....does that sound right?

Just had a thought, as there were no instructions and this sounds like a stupid question.
Have I got it installed right? 
I have the hose from the filter going into the narrower end and  the hose coming out of the wider end with the co2 tube next to it going into the tank, is that correct?
If that is correct I do not know what is happening as I have the bubble counter so fast I cannot count the bubbles and still not much happening.


----------



## Bertie (24 May 2013)

I have just realized that the co2 is/was not getting through to the spraybar!!?? I do not appear to have a leak so I have no idea what has been happening to the co2 ?


----------



## ian_m (24 May 2013)

You need "higher pressure" to get UP inline diffusers working. I think mine is 2.5bar and I have no problem @ 1-2 bubbles per second getting through.


----------



## Iain Sutherland (24 May 2013)

Bertie said:


> I have the hose from the filter going into the narrower end and the hose coming out of the wider end with the co2 tube next to it going into the tank, is that correct?


 
hey bertie, not to sure what you mean here.... to fit the atomiser you need to cut you filter tubing and attach the tubing on both ends of the atomiser, then the co2 tube from the regulator connects to the small nipple on the atomiser. You should see a fine mist leaving the spray bar when all is running.

There are a couple of versions of the atomiser but here is a video to show one of the newer style (some say inferior) working.


----------



## Bertie (24 May 2013)

I have a co2 supermaket one and if the guage is accurate it is showing 40 psi which I thought would be enough.....of course the diffuser itself could be duff as I do not think it is UP! but would not know how to check that! And of course I cannot even purchase a proper UP one if my regulator is not right either.
Up a creek without a paddle! Looks like I will have to take the long spraybar from the back wall and go back to the side wall with a glass diffuser.


----------



## IanD (24 May 2013)

Hi Bertie, like you and ian_m i'm using the co2 supermarket reg with an up inline diffuser and it does work. I also thought my diffuser (ebay) could be a fake As ian_m says it doesn't seem to kick in until you get a good bubble count going. Mine is misting at 1 bubble per second, less than this doesn't have a noticible effect.


----------



## Bertie (24 May 2013)

Hi Iain,
I have the older version....what I mean is that I have the two hoses connected ok but I have the co2 line going in the nipple and that nipple is at the top and I am wondering whether I should turn the whole diffuser upside down so the nipple is at the bottom where the hose from the filter goes into it? Sorry if it is difficult to understand.


----------



## Bertie (24 May 2013)

IanD said:


> Hi Bertie, like you and ian_m i'm using the co2 supermarket reg with an up inline diffuser and it does work. I also thought my diffuser (ebay) could be a fake As ian_m says it doesn't seem to kick in until you get a good bubble count going. Mine is misting at 1 bubble per second, less than this doesn't have a noticible effect.


Yes I had mine at well over 6 bps but wonder if there is a correct UP and a DOWN when you fit them....I am getting myself more confused here


----------



## IanD (24 May 2013)

I also have the older y shaped model. I have the water hose running horizontal with the co2 line above the outflow from the atomizer so the co2 is being pumped in against the water flow if you see what I mean.

co2---->
			  atomzier
water<--------------


----------



## foxfish (24 May 2013)

Here you go


----------



## NattyAntlers (24 May 2013)

Hi Bertie
Could you not remove the atomiser from the filter tubes, leave the co2 connected and place the atomiser in the tank or a bucket of water, you should see bubbles coming out of one of the filter tube connectors if its working correctly?


----------



## Bertie (24 May 2013)

foxfish said:


> Here you go


Hi foxfish I have just finished re-connecting mine as your photo shows!!! Will soon find out if I had it upside down as I think!


----------



## Bertie (24 May 2013)

NattyAntlers said:


> Hi Bertie
> Could you not remove the atomiser from the filter tubes, leave the co2 connected and place the atomiser in the tank or a bucket of water, you should see bubbles coming out of one of the filter tube connectors if its working correctly?


Hi, Yes I will do that next...I will have to sort out some hose to connect the filter directly to the spray bar. But will give this 30mins to see if it starts or not. Thanks


----------



## ian_m (24 May 2013)

Bertie, did you test before using ?

I connected just the gas to mine, as shown in picture above and dunked the whole lot in jug of water. After a while a fine mist of bubbles could be seen streaming from inside the device. Also enables you to check the CO2 connection is gas tight.

I also fitted jubilee clips (stainless from Ebay) as I was never 100% convinced the locking nuts were robust enough with my JBL pipe, which definitely has slightly thicker walls than "normal" 16/22 pipe. One day whilst fiddling the pipe did pop off and I started to syphon the tank onto the floor...all of course behind the tank out of easy reach . Since fitting jubilee clips not been a problem.

I don't think the flow direction, in the above diagram matters, though I would keep the CO2 gas inlet in facing upwards as water can and does collect in the bottom of the device and you don't want that flowing back down the CO2 tubing.


----------



## NattyAntlers (24 May 2013)

I was thinking just to test the atomiser, no need to connect the filter up to the spray bar, if the atomiser is working connect it back up to the filter if its not.....


----------



## Bertie (24 May 2013)

It has been running now for 20 minutes and no sign of any co2 coming out of the spray bar  Now I am in a quandry as I do not want to buy another Inline diffuser if my Regulator is faulty for instance!


----------



## Bertie (24 May 2013)

Hi all,
I will check the atomiser after my dinner but if it does not work I have then to decide whether the atomiser is faulty or my pressure gauge is!


----------



## foxfish (24 May 2013)

Bert if it is any consolation, lots & lots of folk have issues with UP devices, it will probably come good once you get your head around how it all operates...


----------



## John S (24 May 2013)

Bertie if you have bubbles moving through your bubble counter but nothing out of the spray bar you either have a leak or haven't given the system enough time to build up pressure.

As an aside I'm not sure it makes any difference which way the diffuser is connected as from what I can see it is just a ceramic tube.


----------



## Bertie (24 May 2013)

Hi foxfish, I have not found any leaks! I left the thing on for 4hrs?? I did just check it on its own and nothing! My regulator work pressure shows 50psi when not switched on and when the co2 is running it is showing 40psi. Now I do not know whether to risk buying a proper UP one or go back to the glass diffuser! Thanks for your help.


----------



## John S (24 May 2013)

Bertie, so nothing came out when you did the jug test like Ian M recommended?


----------



## Ady34 (24 May 2013)

Hi Bertie, sorry about the issues your having. As a first port of call id remove the co2 line from the atomiser and do a dip test in a small cup of water to ensure your co2 is making it to the diffuser. If it is then its likely to be a fault or pressure issue with the diffuser. As others have suggested if the co2 is getting to the diffuser you can then test the diffuser in a water dip to see if its working or not but it should be obvious especially given your current bubble rate. I'm presuming the diffuser is on the filter outlet so no chance the mist is diffusing fully before entering the tank?
Cheerio
Afy


----------



## Bertie (24 May 2013)

Hi All,
dave, no nothing came out at all.
Andy,I tried dipping in water and nothing came outl  I have just had an e-mail from the guy I bought it off and he said sometimes it needs to be run at full pressure to get it going and then reduce pressure. He did say I could return it or swap for a bazooka with check valve?
I have just had medication so will have to go to sleep very soon so will try a test on full power tomorrow!


----------



## John S (24 May 2013)

OK. If you want to try my used spare UP I'm happy to post it to you?


----------



## Bertie (24 May 2013)

davem said:


> OK. If you want to try my used spare UP I'm happy to post it to you?


Thanks for your kind offer dave....I will try it on the tank in the morning again, and if on Sunday I have to turn it full up for initial start I may well take up your offer.
I just do not want to start every morning with the needle valve full on and then re adjust as I can see that causing algae problems.
I will let you know how I get on.
Once again thanks.


----------



## Bertie (24 May 2013)

Hi all,
I thought that I had posted but appears not. I have got it working I did what the chap said...I started with the needle valve nearly fully open and dropped it into a jug and hey presto it started working! I managed to turn it down to 1bps and it was still working.
I will re-connect to the filter tomorrow and see how it goes. I just hope that I do not have to turn the needle valve fully on every morning to start it up else that may cause algae problems.


----------



## Bertie (25 May 2013)

Well I had to open up the needle valve to a very high rate to get it started....then dropped down to 4bps for the last 2 1/2 hrs and DC still blue and could not really see any bubbles...I have now increased the bps to 6 and can see very,very fine mist that is hardly visible, I will leave it for a couple of hours and see how the DC looks then.

Really cannot see any real "fizz" in the water so I am still doubtful as to whether this is working or not.


----------



## Bertie (25 May 2013)

DC is still blue! I do not know whether my regulator or needle valve might be faulty! I have increased bps so that I cannot count them properly and this is only a Rio 180 Tank!
I have noticed 2 things...firstly the output pressure gauge seems to be "pulsating" and when I turn the needle valve the bps reacts "opposite" to what I would expect for eg: if I turn it up then the bps may decrease. This is starting to send me loopy!! I am now at a complete loss as what to do as I don't want to gas my fish and I have noticed that the dreaded BBA seems to be appearing again!


----------



## foxfish (25 May 2013)

Bert there is something awry here!...... If you are counting 6bps, the gas mush be going somewhere!
At that rate you would be looking a class of alka seltzer!
When you dipped the device in the water, was it fizzing like crazy? did you notice any gas escaping in big bubbles?


----------



## Bertie (25 May 2013)

When I dipped it...it was really fizzing away but out of one end of the atomizer there were "big" bubbles...I can see some fizz in the water now but at a guess I would say my bps is at least 8 bps at that rate I would get through a 2kg FE in no time!
I am also concerned about my fish!


----------



## Bertie (25 May 2013)

Although I did not find any leaks on my co2 connections I think when the co2 switches off I will attach the tubing to the check valves with a little bit of superglue.

I also think, because of the "pulsating" working pressure gauge,which increases/decreases the bps with the "pulse", the regulator is like me...b*****ed So some how I will have to (or the wife will) find the funds to get another one...I was thinking of a UP twin guage adjustable one from one of our sponsors/advertisers. Unless anyone has other suggestions for regulator/solonoid?


----------



## John S (25 May 2013)

When it pulses on the gauge what values is it moving between?


----------



## Bertie (25 May 2013)

hi dave approx 36 to 40 psi or just over that at least the dc is going green now!


----------



## John S (25 May 2013)

To be honest Bert I'd stick with it for a few days and see if it settles down. I wouldn't rush into getting another reg just yet.


----------



## Bertie (25 May 2013)

Ok dave thanks....the dc is now green..only 1 hour before the co2 goes off....I just seem to think that 8bps or more is a bit much for my Rio 180? willl give it a few days to see how it goes...will order a new FE this week just in case! 

One advantage of the tiny bubbles is that I can see that the bubbles/flow is getting everywhere.


----------



## discusdan (26 May 2013)

have you checked the connection between the regulator and the FE?
If the gauges on the FE are fluctuating then you may have a leak between the two?
Use a spray bottle and some fairy liquid and spray it around the connection or any where else it may be leaking a look out for tiny air bubbles.


----------



## Bertie (26 May 2013)

discusdan said:


> have you checked the connection between the regulator and the FE?
> If the gauges on the FE are fluctuating then you may have a leak between the two?
> Use a spray bottle and some fairy liquid and spray it around the connection or any where else it may be leaking a look out for tiny air bubbles.


 
Hi discusdan thanks...have checked, but will re-check just in case I have missed one. I have green/blue on lights on now, but if I try and adjust upwards, the needle valve decides to slow the bps down rather than up then I have to mess around again...I will leave the needle valve alone today and have a go again tomorrow.


----------



## discusdan (26 May 2013)

I have the same reg, the gauges are a bit hit and miss really. I don't bother looking at them much.

on mine the needle valve is very sensitive. It only needs to be open a fraction of a turn.

Clockwise on the needle valve to close it (less bps)
anti clockwise to open it (more bps)

check the solenoid is fully screwed down as well and check around the connection for leaks.

If you're getting bubbles are the bubble check but nothings getting through to the atomizer it could be either a duff atomizer or a leak between the two.
leak in the connector or split in the hose?

also check your bubble counter for leaks. 

Also have you set up your drop checker correctly? 4dKH solution and bromo blue?

A picture of your set up might throw some more light on the situation.

I've seen your other thread about a new reg, I'd make 100% sure your current reg is faulty before getting a new one. There not cheap bits of kit and no point spending money if you dont need to.


----------



## Bertie (26 May 2013)

Hi disusdan thanks.....yes the needle valve is a bit iffy...when I try and open it up...turning clockwise it quite often wants to slow the bubble rate down...so have left as is for now...the atomiser is working but seems to need a lot of bps....have checked for leaks and have found none...hose is ok it is good quality co2 tubing...bubble counter is intact without leaks...using AE ready mixed bromo for DC and has been ok  Thanks for your help.


----------



## discusdan (26 May 2013)

If its the same as mine turning the needle valve clockwise will close it? which would explain why the bubble rate goes down?

anti clockwise will open it up and let more co2 through.

the bubble rate might go up when the reg first turns on untill the atomizer is up to pressure. With out moving the needle valve does the bps go down a few minutes after the reg has turned on?


----------



## Bertie (26 May 2013)

Yes you are right...I am turning it anti-clockwise, had my head on the wrong way  when I try and adjust the bps up it goes down then I have to tweak it up again and then it is too fast....have it at a steady 6 - 8 bps at the moment...which is a lot higher than I needed with the glass diffuser and my tank is only a Rio 180. Yes it always starts faster and settles after 10 - 15 minutes but with the working pressure gauge fluctuating it does not give a rock steady bps,although the fluctuation is not as much after an hour or two.


----------



## GHNelson (26 May 2013)

Hi Bertie
I think you have a leaking atomiser...try testing it again in water.
A moving working pressure needle is a sure sign of a leak....investigate where the Co2 tube connects to the atomiser.
hoggie


----------



## Bertie (26 May 2013)

Hi hogan53...thanks for that I will check all my co2 connections again when the co2 switches off at 6pm...I will superglue all tubing to the check valves and re-connect and triple check the connection to the atomizer!!


----------



## GHNelson (26 May 2013)

Hi Bertie
I think you should check the atomiser when the Co2 is on.
I had a tiny leak on the atomiser itself not on the co2 connections.
 D508-12 12/16mm Aquarium Co2 Atomizer System Diffuser | eBay
This was the version I was using above.
hoggie


----------



## Bertie (26 May 2013)

Hi hogan and everybody else for their assistance.......I have a faulty check valve.....taken it off for now as I had two on the same line, so will go across the road to my lfs tomorrow morning and get a new one...I like two in the line....I cannot check fully until the morning but visually it seems that I am using half the bps with the same "fizz" in the water but as my dc is already green/yellow I will have to wait until tomorrow......and the working pressure guage is no longer fluctuating don't know what it has cost me in co2 but will order a new FE first thing just to make sure I have one in stock....thanks again.


----------



## Bertie (27 May 2013)

Well the gauge was fluctuating this morning but I was able still to drop the bps....I fitted a brand new check valve and the gauge is still fluctuating by a few psi...I have checked again for leaks and can find none..I guess I will have to leave as is for now.


----------



## Bertie (27 May 2013)

Well I must be going mad!! Although I could not detect any leaks I thought that to be sure I would change the bubble counter to one that I had with plastic nuts that hold the tubing on and hey presto! the guage is rock solid again. Don't know whether I am going round the bend but there you are.
I will just adjust the bubble count and dc over next 48hrs (bubble rate is different in this counter) and go from there!


----------



## GHNelson (28 May 2013)

Hi Bertie
Told you...you had a leak.....
What bubble counter are you using now...is it a JBL?
hoggie


----------



## Bertie (28 May 2013)

hogan53 said:


> Hi Bertie
> Told you...you had a leak.....
> What bubble counter are you using now...is it a JBL?
> hoggie


 
 no I am going to order a JBL one as a spare...I am using one that I got with a reactor (which I did not like) but this morning it is working great...no fluctuation and running at 3 - 4 bps


----------



## ian_m (28 May 2013)

I too have been suffering CO2 leaks, not eating my own words (?) even after telling Bertie to dunk every connection in a jug of water.

I have now smeared every CO2 joint with LS-X sealer. Fernox LS-X Leak Sealer | Screwfix.com (also available in B&Q). This is drinking water safe. All sealed now, but 2Kg fire extinguisher almost empty after less than 3 months.

Also a tiny smear of Silicone Lubricant 250ml - Underground Drainage - Guttering & Drainage -Building Materials - Wickes	  on the JBL CO2 bubble counter seal (and on any other rubber seals). You must not use any petroleum based grease/oil eg vaseline on rubber seals as will dissolve/attack the rubber, softening it initially and then hardening it eventually producing leaks.


----------



## GHNelson (28 May 2013)

JBL ...you can take apart for cleaning.
It has a rubber O ring inside so you have to be careful when dismantling or reassembling.
hoggie


----------



## Bertie (28 May 2013)

the wife is going to get me some silicone grease this afternoon if she can find it! hope you got it all fixed now ian


----------



## ian_m (28 May 2013)

Bertie, silicone grease on JBL is not essential as it seals OK out of the box. However it goes together a lot easier if seal is very lightly oiled/greased.

I think my CO2 is all fixed, apart from only 100g CO2 left after actually 2 months . Luckily got a spare FE in garage that was to be for my new tank, whenever I get round to it (or wife gives permission ).

As for using Vaseline on rubber seals, my neighbour used it on his pushfit Hep2O plumbing a year or two ago, like you are not supposed to. He recently came to take some apart and the rubber O rings on hot supply were all hardened and broke apart when he undid the joints.

He had come round to look at my plumbing I had modified using OsmaGold and Hep2O push fit plumbing when we had a new kitchen installed. Our new build house is mostly plastic OsmaGold plumbing, which is great when upgrading etc as you can undo all the joints easily. I explained how easy the push fit is to do and that if you apply a smear of correct silicone oil or grease to pipe ends before pushing in it slides in very easily and seals 100%. However he couldn't find any silicone and just used Vaseline, which in conjunction with the heat has now attacked the O-rings. Anyway trip to "proper" plumbing shop got replacement O-rings and silicone grease and has replaced the O-rings on his dodgy joints. Do it correctly and do it only once I think is the motto.


----------



## Bertie (28 May 2013)

You are right ian....I have always had a large box of rubber O rings....have not used many, but they have got me out of a scrape or two in the past!!


----------



## ian_m (28 May 2013)

Bertie, shouldn't you be watching and enjoying your tank, rather than forumising ?


----------



## Bertie (28 May 2013)

ian_m said:


> Bertie, shouldn't you be watching and enjoying your tank, rather than forumising ?


 
Doing both!!! my laptop....and my armchair...........are right next to the tank....although I am doing tank husbandry in between


----------



## Bertie (30 May 2013)

Well I do not know what is going on.
I know I should not get fixated on bubble count, but since changing to a different bubble counter, I am injecting loads of bubbles with little change to my DC. I have been increasing gradually over the last couple of days and my DC is barely green.
The bubble count is so fast, it is almost a stream.
I have a fine mist coming out of the spray bar and flowing around the tank and the fish are showing no signs of distress.
I now do not have any apparent leaks, and the working pressure guage has stayed rock steady without any fluctuations. I am assuming that different bubble counters will need different counts to get the same injection of co2? but as I say this seems a very,very high bubble rate. For instance my co2 has been switched on for 6 hours now and the DC is barely at a blue/green stage. I am waiting for delivery of a JBL bubble counter but feel that I may go back to a glass diffuser. Just checked my ph and it is lower than 7.6 but higher than 7.2ppm. This is beginning to get to me!


----------



## ian_m (30 May 2013)

Yes different bubble counters have different size bubbles. The one before my JBL bubble counter, cheapy Ebay Hong Kong, produced a stream of very tiny bubbles, whereas the JBL bubble counter produces 2 quite monster bubbles per second.


----------



## Bertie (30 May 2013)

Thanks ian...my previous one was fine at between 4 - 6 bubbles but this is one I had free with another item supplied under the name hexa! I think, and it does have a long narrow tube, the co2 is streaming out of there. My JBL one has been dispatched tho only 2nd class RM so will wait till that gets here before I have my breakdown!  I just have visions of me trying to explain to the wife why I need a new FE every month or two!!


----------



## ian_m (30 May 2013)

I have smeared all the CO2 connections & threads with LS-X sealer. Fernox LS-X Leak Sealer | Screwfix.com as well as testing. Its quite amazing how much less CO2 one uses with no leaks


----------



## Bertie (30 May 2013)

I have superglued the check valves onto the tubing and of course the inline diffuser is secured with the nut, and both connections on the bubble counter are secured with plastic nuts also.


----------



## discusdan (30 May 2013)

The trouble with super glue is it can become very brittle and crack meaning co2 can still escape.

a flexible silicon product would be my choice and i'd use it on every connection to be sure.


----------



## Bertie (31 May 2013)

Just a question!
I was sitting here this morning at 4.30am in the peace and quiet, and every so often I could hear a psssst....it sounded as if it was coming from the filter.
Is it possible that if I am using a high rate of co2 some of it could go down the inlet pipe and therefore cause some co2 to collect in the filter, and therefore cause some cavitation and the expelling the excess co2  overnight?
I will add that my co2 went of at 6pm the night before.


----------



## ian_m (31 May 2013)

Most like still got air in your filter. Try turning it off a while (30 seconds) then back on to see if it expels air. My JBL1500 behaves like this, take quite a few power cycles to get all the air out after opening it up.


----------



## Bertie (31 May 2013)

Thanks ian...problem is I have not had the "lid off" my Eheim in over a week... although prior to that I was inputting  co2 directly into the outflow but that was over a week ago also!


----------



## Gary Nelson (31 May 2013)

Gurgling from a filter can be a number of things - trapped co2 gas or if your plants are pearling like mad then extra oxygen bubbles... it will work its way out eventually though... but can be a little annoying.

What I normally do if I have this is after opening up the filter for maintenance or if I hear some air gurgling is when the filter is running, just gently tilt it backwards.... that normally will force the air out quicker


----------



## Bertie (31 May 2013)

It is definitely the co2 going down the wrong way!! It has got worse since the co2 came on and although I am injecting loads of bubbles, not so many are coming out of the spray bar. Now I have to decide on whether it is the inline diffuser at fault as I  can ill afford to get another one that may give the same result.


----------

