# Spray bar or no spray bar for best CO2 distribution?



## Aeropars (6 Jul 2015)

Hi all,

This could have also gone in the filter section as well so tossed a coin and posted it in here 

I've struggled for some time with getting decent CO2 distribution and plant growth but having moved house and broke my old T8 lumaire in the move, I've done a bit of upgrading. Now its time to cure my issues once and for all.

I've set up the tank which is an old 180L Juwel (1 meter long) and its filtered by an Eheim Pro e3 2078 which is rated at 1850LPH. I've connect it up to the computer however and it says I'm getting about 900LPH. I've also got a Koralia 2800 as well which I have previously used. to boost the flow. I have pressureised CO2 with a bazooka atomizer under the inflow of the filter.

So, I set up the tank and switched on filter without a spray bar. I then attached the spray bar but it looked as thought it reduced the flow around the tank. Flow was still showing as the 900PLH so i can see that the actual throughput was around the same although i don't expect this to be 100% accurate.

Below is a picture of the tank with my start up plants in. I've got to put the Koralia in the tank (awaiting a spare part) but I don't know what would be the best configuration. Should I go without the spray bar and point the filter outlet and the Koralia in the same direction or should I use the spray bar? If so, where should I put the Koralia?

As a side note, the CO2 has been on for  around an hour and a half but the drop checker is still a pretty dark green.

Tank by Lee Parsons, on Flickr


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## Andy D (6 Jul 2015)

I would try the various methods - spraybar, spraybar with koralia, no spraybar and no spraybar with koralia - and run a pH profile each time. See which method gives you the biggest drop. This should also help evaluate whether you are injecting enough CO2.


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## Aeropars (6 Jul 2015)

Thanks for the reply. 

How do you guys test the PH these days? I had a PH controller about 9 years ago but binned it due tot he unstable CO2 it caused.


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## Vinkenoog1977 (6 Jul 2015)

For me, it's a bit of a case of what the situation requires. If you're using a diffusor, I'd use a spraybar for the best circulation of CO2, BUT I'd advise using 2, or more, diffusors, depending on the length of the tank, spaced equally underneath the spraybar, AND go for an oversized filter (aim for 12+ turnover instead of 10, or even less). If you're using an inline atomizer or an inline reactor, it doesn't really matter if you use a spraybar or a nozzle or a lily pipe, use whatever gives you the best flow (with still a preferred minimum of 8 times turnover).


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## Aeropars (6 Jul 2015)

Thanks for that. I do have another atomizer to put in the tank but I'm having an issue with the CO2 splitter so cant put that in yet.

Unfortunately I cant buy another filter so I'm stuck with the e3 and the koralia. On paper it should be plenty however I just need to figure out the best way of getting the distribution.

One thing I didnt mention but you can probably see the spray bar only runs 2/3 the way along the tank. I found that if I increased it any further than that, the flow was pityful.

I would love to know how the hell you can get the full 1800lph out of this filter! It seems impossible.


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## Andy D (6 Jul 2015)

Aeropars said:


> How do you guys test the PH these days?



Ideally you will need to know you kH but the idea is based upon dropping your pH by 1 by the time the lights come on. This should equate to 30ppm.

You will need to get a pH meter. This are quite cheap on eBay and typically come with calibrating powders (to be mixed with RO or similar). 

The run a profile. This is a simple process and just involves measuring the pH every 30/60 minutes.
To ensure the CO2 is at the right level by lights on you should be able to drop the pH by at least 1. 

A typical pH profile will look like this (values are purely for example):

1000 - 7.5
1100 - 7.5
1200 - 7.5 CO2 ON
1300 - 7.0
1400 - 6.5 LIGHTS ON
1500 - 6.5 
1600 - 6.5
1700 - 6.5
1800 - 6.5
1900 - 6.5 CO2 OFF
2000 - 6.5
2100 - 6.7 LIGHTS OFF
2200 - 6.9

This will continue until the pH returns back to 7.5.

This method lets you know what is going on a bit more accurately than a drop checker (although the drop checker can help determine if the distribution needs tweaking). This will also help determine what the bubbles per second (bps) should be. Depending on the size of the tank you would start of with X amount of bps. Run the pH profile and see what is going on. If the pH has not dropped by 1 by lights on then you know you need to increase the bps. If the pH drops by more than 1 then you now you need to decrease the bps. It is best to start low and work up so as not to put any livestock in danger.

The pH profile will also let you gauge the best position for the diffuser. You can move it to a new position each day and run the pH profile to determine the most efficient position.

I hope I have explained this so that it makes sense!


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## Andy D (6 Jul 2015)

Aeropars said:


> I would love to know how the hell you can get the full 1800lph out of this filter! It seems impossible.



2 points here:

1. The quoted flow rate is typically with an empty filter. You could reduce the amount of media to increase the flow.

2. 10 x turnover is the figure we use but this also takes into account the fact that the filter will not give the stated turnover rate. 

So as long as the quoted turnover is 10 x the tank volume then on paper the filter should be fine. Further tests like I have mentioned above will help determine if this is the case.


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## Aeropars (6 Jul 2015)

Yeah, I didn't expect to get it. The Eheim monitoring software doesn't even go up to that LPH!

I've got 2 of the 4 baskets full. One with fine mesh media and another with the bio cylinders. The. There's the pre-filter sponge too. 

Would you remove more than that?


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## Andy D (6 Jul 2015)

Personally. No.


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## Rahms (7 Jul 2015)

Is there any mention in the eheim manual about how it determines the flowrate? It's very difficult to measure flowrate to any sort of accuracy, so I'd be interested.

The spraybar will give you more even flow throughout the tank so, as a generic answer, it will always be better.  But it obviously depends on where your plants are and what your hardscape is like.  If the spraybar is only 2/3 of the length of the tank, I'd stick the koralia in the deadspot on the end, facing the same way as the spraybar holes. A diffuser may struggle.  I'd be tempted to just put it right under the filter intake and see how that goes!


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## Aeropars (7 Jul 2015)

Thanks for the replies. I've done exactly that. I've put the atomizer under the filter intake and all of the mist is going into the filter. Every now and then I'll get a burp as the gas is obviously building up inside the filter to an extent. That might be due to the amount of bubbles I'm having to put in there though. At the moment I'm running about 4-6 BPS which in comparison to others seems a lot!

The koralia part is due to turn up tomorrow so I can get the other atomizer in the tank as well then.


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## Wisey (7 Jul 2015)

I have an Eheim Pro 3e 600T, which also has an advertised rate of 1850 LPH. What they don't tell you until it arrives and you read the instruction book is that the pump rate and the actual max flow deliverable are two totally different things. My 600T has variable flow rates, but the absolute maximum that you can set it to is 1100 LPH. I spent over £500 on a filter to use on a TMC Signature 60x45x45, it just has pan scrubbers in the bottom tray and some alfagrog in the second, top two are empty, there is an UP inline atomiser and double tap set on the return pipe which is as short as it can be and it goes to an eheim spray bar. I can only get the jets to go about 3/4 of the way across a 45 cm tank with it set to maximum flow. It's pretty disappointing, I spent the extra money on the filter to try and avoid adding powerheads and such like in the aquarium, I'm now looking at ways to improve flow by adding powerheads and a skimmer. If you take a look at your instruction booklet, you will see there is a table which lists the maximum, minimum and default factory set flow rates. My default rate was only 700 LPH, the filter can then detect when it gets dirty and increase the rate, but I just boosted mine to max straight away. I should have listened to Ceg, its a pump in a bucket, bought a cheaper one and stuck a powerhead in the tank which I am now going to do anyway, could have saved myself £200-300 probably!


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## Aeropars (7 Jul 2015)

Yes, I agree. I bought it years ago and certainly wouldn't bother with one that expensive again. But hey-ho... live and learn!

Now to make the damn tank work....


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## Wisey (7 Jul 2015)

Good luck getting it sorted out. I'm just over a week in to my first planted tank and having battles with CO2 and distribution. Frustrating to see your plants melt  Let's hope we both get this CO2 distribution nailed down soon.


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## ian_m (7 Jul 2015)

You need flow something like this, with the flow hitting the front of the tank. This a Juwel 180 and JBLe1501 with extended spray bar and noodles and balls in all the baskets.


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## Aeropars (7 Jul 2015)

Thanks for that Ian. I see that the pressure coming out of the spray bar is quite feirce and is hitting the front of the tank. If I drop my water level, I'm pretty sure that the spray won't get that far, especially with extending it.

I also see that you have a Koralia and a powerhead in there. Do you use these for changing the direction of the flow?


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## ian_m (7 Jul 2015)

Aeropars said:


> I also see that you have a Koralia and a powerhead in there


When the tank was first started I played movable drop checker, moving it around the tank and seeing what colour I got. Anywhere at the top of the tank I got green/yellow drop checker, but at bottom front left of tank it was more blue than green and algae (BBA) started appearing on the lower parts of the plants. Basically plants blocking flow.

Putting in a power head fixed that, green/yellow drop checker where ever I place the drop checker. This was a cheapy powerhead that failed in under a year and was replaced and which failed again. It's replacement is now a Koralia much much more expensive but much much quieter and still going years later. Now moved to left hand side of tank as getting blue drop checker on the right of the tank. On a timer so comes on at CO2 time but off at 7pm as tank is the in lounge so extra quite and to give the fish a rest...


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## Aeropars (7 Jul 2015)

Hi all.

I've added a quick video so you can see how theCO2 is entering the filter. Its kind of 50/50 going in and floating up to the top. What's left at the top looks to be getting blown around somewhat. The CO2 came on today 3 hours before lights but when lights came on the drop checker was like a blue.green colour. So clearly not getting the dissipation I would expect.

I've just added the second diffuser however its quite the balancing act trying to juggle both on a splitter. and get the right pressures!


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