# Unknown algae - please help?



## mede (23 Jun 2013)

I'm running a small 60x30x35 (centimeters) tank and I'm using the EI-method, meaning 50% water change every week and weekly fertilization like:

24.00 ppm NO3
3.90 ppm PO4
30.00 ppm K
0.60 ppm Fe
6.43 ppm S
5.00 ppm Mg
0.07 ppm Mn
0.04 ppm B
0.01 ppm Zn
0.46 ppm dGH

Plants are growing well and there are only 10 rasbora brigittae an 10 Japonica shrims living in the tank.

Especially my Staurogyne sp. is suffering with a (to me) unknown algae which are mainly visible on the lower (older) leaves. I looks like it is getting worse.

Anyone who recognizes this type of algae and have some tips to remove/prevent my tank for this?









I also have some other types of algae which I will post later... this is the most annoying one.


----------



## tim (23 Jun 2013)

hi mede, looks like gsa on the leaves and bba or staghorn on the leaf edges most algae issues stem from low co2 or poor flow at substrate level.
good algae guide James' Planted Tank - Algae Guide


----------



## Yo-han (23 Jun 2013)

I see GSA, which could indicate low PO4 or low CO2. And I see BBA, which is caused by organics (read: dirty tank, rotting material, a ammonia spike). Try to increase PO4 and CO2, and make sure your tank is pristine! (remove every dead leave, dead fish etc.)


----------



## dw1305 (23 Jun 2013)

Hi all,
I think it is BBA on the leaves. I know they aren't to every-ones tastes but Ramshorn snails will remove this when it is at a sporeling stage. Later on you need to keep syphoning out the detached tufts.
Have a look at these threads: <Anyone have experiences of BBA? | UK Aquatic Plant Society> & <Low Energy, Water Changes, CO2, Algae, and Pseudoscience. | UK Aquatic Plant Society>.

cheers Darrel


----------



## mede (23 Jun 2013)

Thanks all!

Looks like BBA after some research on Google images... I read two possible causes; dirty or rotting materials or wrong co2 levels. I think - if these are the only causes - that it must have something to do with co2.

I dose my co2 through a 2kg pressurized bottle with a constant bubble rate, so the amount of co2 is always the same...

*but I have one theory that I want to share with you*.

I'm using Seiryu stones which adds chalk to my water. After the weekly water change I mix my tap water with 50% osmose water and after the water change my KH is 5. In one week the KH value is increased to KH 8 (measured before water change). Could this increasing KH value be related to fluctuating co2 levels which is causing my BBA algae????


----------



## Yo-han (23 Jun 2013)

Yep, that might attribute for sure!


----------



## ceg4048 (24 Jun 2013)

mede said:


> Could this increasing KH value be related to fluctuating co2 levels which is causing my BBA algae????


No. Fix your CO2. BBA is strictly a CO2 related problem and KH has nothing to do with CO2.

Cheers,


----------



## mede (24 Jun 2013)

@ceg4048 I'm referring to co2 levels according the PH/KH table....

If my KH increases the co2 level goes down (according the table) and the uptake of co2 will be more difficult?? At the end of the week my co2 drop checker is a little bit more dark green then one or two days after the 50% water change.

I dose co2 pressurized with (almost) 2 bubbles/second so the only thing to fix is adding more bubbles? Water flow (spraybar) looks OK as far I can see - all leaves are moving slightly...


----------



## ceg4048 (24 Jun 2013)

mede said:


> @ceg4048 I'm referring to co2 levels according the PH/KH table....


Yes, I know, and it's completely wrong because you cannot use those tables in a fish tank. Those tables are based on the amount of carbonic acid cause by small amounts of CO2 which undergo this conversion. In a tank however there are many other acids that have nothing to do with CO2. The acids therefore affect the pH and of course corrupt the values that you read in the tables.

Unfortunately you have totally misinterpreted the way that the table works. There is only one way to affect CO2 and that is to add CO2. Changing the KH does nothing.

You really need to understand this concept, otherwise you will continue to have problems. You cannot use those tables to determine CO2 directly.

Please review the thread CO2 MEASUREMENT USING A DROP CHECKER | UK Aquatic Plant Society

Cheers,


----------



## mede (24 Jun 2013)

Great article (bookmarked), thanks!

I'm using a drop checker, but the KH/PH table was some kind of theory that I had in mind because I can't explain a unstable CO2 if I dose a constant amount of bubbles/seconds (which should be stable??)

However it really looks like that after one week (KH=8) the color in my drop checker is more dark green then the day after the water change (KH=5). That's why I thought this could have some relation.... But of course it could be that I'm assuming the darker color. 

The needle valve setting is always the same (constant CO2 delivery). If I understand your article the amount of CO2 is the same the whole week, regardless of what my KH value is? So to get rid of my BBA will only be achieved by increasing the CO2 flow (more open the needle valve?)...

Just took an hour to observe the plants and they are moving slightly, especially the leaves on my photos are moving clearly.


----------



## ceg4048 (25 Jun 2013)

mede said:


> I'm using a drop checker, but the KH/PH table was some kind of theory that I had in mind because I can't explain a unstable CO2 if I dose a constant amount of bubbles/seconds (which should be stable??)


As mentioned in the tutorial, you should be using a distilled water adjusted to 4 dkH in the dropchecker. When this is accomplished the data in the tables now become relevant because that sample water has a fixed KH value and is not influenced by any other acid.

Unstable CO2 has many causes, so for this issue, you need to completely forget about the table. The usefulness of the table is limited to the dropchecker indication only. Some of the causes are discussed in the thread Co2 Fluctuations and BBA | UK Aquatic Plant Society
The problem might easily be solved by increasing the gas injection rate or by adjusting the timing of when the gas is turned on. Is your dropchecker a lime green color when the lights turn on? That is the target. We haven't even talked about what sort of light intensity you have, or what  length of photoperiod is being used.

For a more complete analysis I always suggest that pH readings be taken at regular intervals before, during and after the photoperiod. The pH readings give us an idea of how the gas is behaving, NOT what the absolute value of the CO2 is. I suggest you take pH readings at 30 minute intervals from the moment the gas goes on till the moment it goes off. Then we can look at the rate of change of acidity and evaluate from there.

Cheers,


----------



## mede (25 Jun 2013)

I turn on my CO2 two hours before lights go on and then the color isn't lime green, but dark green. turn of CO2 2 hours before light go out - is this OK?

So I have to increase the bubble rate or start the CO2 injection (lets say) two hours earlier I think to achieve a lime color at the start of lighting?

In the Netherlands I can't find 4 dkH solution and it's hard to find (for me) how to create it myself. Can I just use osmose water (KH=0) and mix this with my tap water (KH=8) to get a 4 dkH solution? Or just add KH+ to my osmose water until it reaches KH=4?

I'm now using this solution which is quite expensive and hard to get:




Good suggestion to measure the PH during the day and I would like to start with it, but now I only have a JBL test (adding drops and compare color) which is hard to read. Can you suggest a good PH measure set, maybe a "standard" digital device that can be found on Ebay?


----------



## Yo-han (25 Jun 2013)

I can sent you some sodium bicarbonate. You can make a lifetime supply of 4 dKH or 5 if you like with RO water. PM me


----------



## ceg4048 (25 Jun 2013)

Hi,
   Yes, fundamentally, if the DC is a dark green at lights on, then you either need to increase the injection rate or turn the gas on earlier. This is very tricky because if you elect to increase the injection rate, this might cause toxicity problems for your fish later on during the day. If you elect to turn the gas on earlier you might cause toxicity problems before lights on. Try a little of both. Program your solenoid timer to turn on 3 hours and open the needle valve a little bit more. Remember that you can also turn the gas OFF earlier as well. You do not need to inject for the entire duration of the photoperiod. Your problems are caused by the dark green DC at lights on. When you fix that you will be in a better position.

I think that JBL product in your image is a mix of 4dkH water plus Bromothymol blue.

This is my favorite hand held probe by Hanna Instruments model HI 98130:




Expensive but it is a multimeter, giving readings of pH, temperature and Conductivity/TDS. It's brilliant but expensive. They do make pH only meters though. This is a good company so any of the meters will be good.

A less expensive version is the temperature/pH meter HI 98107. Remember that all the meters require calibration fluids, a low and a neutral fluid. So make sure you get both calibration fluids when you purchase the meter.




Cheers,


----------



## mede (25 Jun 2013)

Great, thanks for your help... I'm looking for these meters right now and I'm sure I'll have one of my own soon so I can post the pH values of my tank during the day.

Today I'll adjust the "start" of my CO2 injection 3 hours before lights go on and will open the needle valve a little bit more.

Sent Yo-Han a PB, hopefully I can create my own 4dkH solution very soon


----------



## mede (28 Aug 2013)

Finally my HI 98107 arrived today with calibration fluids (PH 7.1 and PH 4.1)! 

Reading the manual I have some questions which hopefully can be answered by some of you.

Manual starts with "Conditioning". The meter (electrode) should be activated immersed for 2 hours in HI70300 which I don't have and it's not explained what could be used as alternative?? Can I just use some tank water which is approximately PH 7??

The manual tells that the sensor should be kept moist all times. I quote the manual literal:

"the sensor should be kept moist all times. For this purpose, always keep wet the tissue inside the protective cap."

English isn't my native language, but if I read this I should keep some kind of wet tissue inside the cap? Can I just use kitchen/toilet paper for this? There's no tissue included... And is it enough to wet this tissue with tank water? Tap water?

Manual is mentioning several times in capitals that you shouldn't use distilled or deionized water for storage. I'm using an osmose device to lower the hardness of my tap water. Is this the same as distilled or deionized water and therefore can't be used?


----------



## ceg4048 (29 Aug 2013)

Hi,
	Just use the 7.1 calibration fluid. Yes, you can use kitchen paper or toilet paper moisten with the calibration fluid. The cap also should have a small piece of foam. You can just moisten that with a few drops of the calibration fluid.

Cheers,


----------



## mede (29 Aug 2013)

Thanks! Hmmm.... the black cap seems to be empty - no foam or anything to wetten.

Do you also know how to use the calibration fluid? I have these bags:






But it doesn't tell if I need to mix it with (osmose??) water... it looks like the content of the bag (amount of fluid) is not enough to immerse the electrode.


----------



## ceg4048 (29 Aug 2013)

Hi mate,
			Use the calibration fluid directly. DO NOT MIX IT WITH ANYTHING.

The whole idea is to force the probe to read 7.0 and 4.0. If you add water to the fluid, you will change the pH and will distort the calibration.

Just stick the probe in the 7.01 fluid and wait a minute or so for the reading to stabilize and to stop moving around. For this model you should have received a small screwdriver. If the reading is not exactly 7.0 then use the screwdriver and turn the little calibration screw which is just below the display. It should be labeled as "7.0" or something like that.

Then, rinse the electrode. You can use tap water to do this.

Follow the same procedure with the 4.01 fluid. Allow the reading to stabilize and if it does not read exactly 4.0 in the display the turn the screw labeled "pH4/10" (or whatever).

That's it!

If you want to make your own storage solution, it's very easy if you have an accurate scale. Storage solutions are basically just a solution of Potassium Chloride (KCl) which you can find at the chemist or online. It's not dangerous. It's just a kind of salt. Just mix 253.47 grams of the powder in 1 liter of RO water. That's it. It scales linearly, so if you want to make 5 liters, then multiply the number of grams by 5 and add to 5 liters of RO water.

Cut a tiny piece of foam or just use toilet paper and wet it with any of these fluids. The probe measure electrostatic differences across the glass, so if you use distilled or RO water that has no ions, it will pull the charged ions across the glass and ruin the probe. Tank water probably can be used but it's better to have a controlled substance with know properties like KCl.

Cheers,


----------



## mede (29 Aug 2013)

thank you ceg, great support!

I will calibrate my device this evening (yes there is a screwdriver included in the package).
Will check the local pharmacy if they sell KCI so I can create my own solution....


----------



## mede (29 Aug 2013)

This simple - just put the meter in the bag:






Did the PH 7 calibration first, needed to lower the value 0,8!
After this the PH 4 fluid didn't need a correction.... Now trying to find KCl which is harder to get then I thought


----------



## ceg4048 (29 Aug 2013)

You should be able to find KCL on-line in Netherlands. If not, check POTASSIUM CHLORIDE (KCl) : UK Chemical Suppliers, Buy Chemicals Online or even flea-bay at Potassium Chloride 500g Ultra Pure, Potassium Chloride 1kg Ultra Pure items in APC PURE store on eBay! and see if they will ship to your locale.

If you have a medicine bottles then just wash them and store the calibration fluids in them sealed with the cap so they don't evaporate.

Cheers


----------



## mede (30 Aug 2013)

thanks for the Ebay link! isn't the price difference compared to non-Ebay stores suspicious? Could there be a difference in quality, or is the quality good enough for my usage?


----------



## ceg4048 (30 Aug 2013)

Hi,
	There is always a suspicion, but the differences may have more to do with the cost of overhead by the different vendors, or other factors. If you live in a place that has snow, KCL is just road salt which has a lower purity. If it's sold as food grade then it should have a higher purity (100%), but again, this is just salt that you can put on your salad with a bit of olive oil and vinegar. Tastes great, is less filling and causes less hypertension than ordinary table salt (NaCl). So maybe it's the other guys who are overpriced?

Cheers,


----------



## mede (15 Sep 2013)

ceg4048 said:


> For a more complete analysis I always suggest that pH readings be taken at regular intervals before, during and after the photoperiod. The pH readings give us an idea of how the gas is behaving, NOT what the absolute value of the CO2 is. I suggest you take pH readings at 30 minute intervals from the moment the gas goes on till the moment it goes off. Then we can look at the rate of change of acidity and evaluate from there.


 
Although I'm starting up a new tank, I've done some measurements during the day with the pH meter attached like this:





What do you think of the following readings for my new tank?

First measurement (pH 7.8) is being done after 60% water change (pH 8 tap water). I have calibrated the pH meter before starting the test.

11:00: *pH 7.8 - CO2 ON*
11:45: *pH **7.4*
12:30: *pH **7.2*
12:45: *pH 7.1*
13:00: *pH **7.0*
14:00: *pH **6.9 - Lights ON*
15:00: *pH **6.8*
15:30: *pH **6.8*
16:00: *pH **6.8*
20:00: *pH **6.7 - CO2 OFF*
20:30: *pH **6.8*
21:00:* pH 6.8*
21:30: *pH **6.9*
22:00: *pH **7.0 - Lights OFF*


Tank is running exactly one week now, doing every second day 60% water change. No signs of algae yet....


----------



## ceg4048 (15 Sep 2013)

Hi,
	That pH profile look OK to me. That you were able to drop the pH almost a full unit by lights on is always a good sign. Even better is the fact that the pH does not drop too much farther throughout the remainder of the photoperiod, so that means the risk of CO2 toxicity is low.

I would have preferred the first reading to have been taken without the water change. That's because tap water has CO2 in it so the profile is distorted by the new water. So this data is valid for water change day, but what does it look like on non-water change days? Hopefully it's very similar. If not, then you may have more tweaking to do.

Isn't the probe a useful tool? Aren't you glad that you don't have the messy liquids to deal with any more?

Cheers,


----------



## mede (15 Sep 2013)

I'm very happy with this probe; useful, accurate and way more faster then doing a drop check.

The only think that worries me is that after calibration to exactly pH 7.0 the meter displays pH 7.1 or even pH 7.2 after 2 or 3 days putting it back in the pH 7 calibration liquid. Seen this a few time now with more or less then 3 times doing a measure after this calibration. Isn't this strange?

I already thought that the water change could have influence on the readings. Next week I will do another measure (same setup) without water change.

Thanks!


----------



## ceg4048 (16 Sep 2013)

Well it ought not to drift so much. Try storing it in the salt fluid or calibration fluid instead of leaving it in the tank, and see if this makes a difference.

Cheers,


----------



## Ady34 (16 Sep 2013)

ceg4048 said:


> The whole idea is to force the probe to read 7.0 and 4.0. If you add water to the fluid, you will change the pH and will distort the calibration.
> 
> Just stick the probe in the 7.01 fluid and wait a minute or so for the reading to stabilize and to stop moving around. For this model you should have received a small screwdriver. If the reading is not exactly 7.0 then use the screwdriver and turn the little calibration screw which is just below the display. It should be labeled as "7.0" or something like that.
> 
> ...


Sorry to jump in but i just have a quick question.
Is it necessary to calibrate the pen to both ph7 and ph4 or just the closest to your reults, eg ph7?
Just want to clarify before re-calibrating my meter, the instructions are slightly vague with it but it intimates only calibrating using the nearest calibration fluid to the ph to be measured.....i know that sounds a bit daft 
I have bought both ph calibration fluids.


Cheers,
Ady.


----------



## ceg4048 (16 Sep 2013)

Hi Ady,
Really, for these probes you need a two point calibration. If you calibrate only at one point then you may have errors as the value moves away from that point. 7 is not really your nearest point. It is the neutral point, so what they are saying is that if you measure things that have a high pH then you need to use the 7 and the 10 so that the probe is more accurate and has a more linear response in that direction. If you measure things in the acidic range then you need to use the 7 and the 4. It's very difficult to have a probe that is accurate and consistent from 4 to 10. That's just too wide a range, so the best thing is to use the 7 and then select the nearest calibration fluid nearest your usual range, either high or low.

Cheers,


----------



## Ady34 (16 Sep 2013)

Thanks Clive. 
These are the instructions:


 
You can probably see why I asked.

I have re-calibrated my meter now to both, it was a little out but spot on now 
Got all I need to keep me accurate for a while!


 

Thanks,
Ady.


----------



## ceg4048 (17 Sep 2013)

Hi Ady,
			Yeah, that's weird. It sure looks like they are saying to use a single point calibration. Anyway, glad the numbers look goo now.

Cheers,


----------

