# Is this GDA?



## Kam Sandhu (9 Oct 2014)

Hi all,

Just wanted to know if this was GDA in my tank?

I've had it for 2 weeks now and just been letting it live out its life cycle before wiping it off.

Is that the best course of action?


----------



## Julian (9 Oct 2014)

Algae = Too much light.


----------



## Kam Sandhu (9 Oct 2014)

Julian said:


> Algae = Too much light.



I only have a 4.5 hour photoperiod. It's a new setup, about 4 weeks old.


----------



## Julian (9 Oct 2014)

Duration isn't the problem, intensity (PAR) is what causes the Algae. Not enough CO2 and poor flow are other factors, but in the case of GDA I don't believe these contribute.

You need to find a way to dim your lights. It's easy to get trapped in the mind set that "the more light the better", but this is not the case.


----------



## Kam Sandhu (9 Oct 2014)

Julian said:


> Duration isn't the problem, intensity (PAR) is what causes the Algae. Not enough CO2 and poor flow are other factors, but in the case of GDA I don't believe these contribute.
> 
> You need to find a way to dim your lights. It's easy to get trapped in the mind set that "the more light the better", but this is not the case.



Hmmmmmm I have 2xT5 45 watts each plus reflectors. 

I think my co2 plus distribution is OK. Diffuser on the right and drop checker on the left, green on lights on. 

I was under the impression GDA is expected on new setups and should last about 3 weeks? I was waiting until the 3rd week before cleaning it off.


----------



## Julian (9 Oct 2014)

Sounds like a good plan but I've done the whole "wait for 3 weeks" thing and it just came right back again. I agree it's not completely avoidable in a new set up but your case looks a bit more severe which is why I suggest lowering the intensity. 

You have nothing to lose by trying.


----------



## Kam Sandhu (9 Oct 2014)

Julian said:


> Sounds like a good plan but I've done the whole "wait for 3 weeks" thing and it just came right back again. I agree it's not completely avoidable in a new set up but your case looks a bit more severe which is why I suggest lowering the intensity.
> 
> You have nothing to lose by trying.



Yeah that's the plan. Maybe even do a black out and if that fails remove reflectors.


----------



## ceg4048 (9 Oct 2014)

Julian said:


> I agree it's not completely avoidable in a new set up


GDA is completely avoidable in a new setup. Completely.
The fundamental correlations are too much light and poor CO2.
People who assume that their CO2 is good suffer GDA the most, because GDA indicates a significant flaw in technique.

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/gda-and-the-mci-method.13207/
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/gda-how-to-get-rid-of-it.17859/

Cheers,


----------



## Kam Sandhu (10 Oct 2014)

Clive,

Thank you for the links, I did find those as I was reading up on GDA.

So, this raises a few questions...

I (as most people) assume I have good CO2 distribution. I keep my drop checker on the opposite side to my diffuser and it is always a nice green when lights go on, I see tiny CO2 bubbles all over my tank, right to the furthest corners. All plants are growing well and spreading. So how do you tell if there really is a CO2 problem?

Lights wise, this can be reduced by removing the reflectors, but honestly, I have only had GDA for a couple of weeks and want to let it run its life cycle before doing a 3 day blackout followed by wiping it away and doing a big water change. One of the reasons is, I do not have many fast growing plants, I have loads of Eleocharis sp mini and some java moss. So algae would be expected?

Am I doing the right thing in waiting? I am not in a rush to get things cleaned, but rather correct the issues.


----------



## mr. luke (10 Oct 2014)

Id remove the reflectors and only use a songle light until it clears.
Reduce the light and remove it and see if the algae stops.
I had a small problem with high light that I thought was quite low and turning off one of the units fixed my problem


----------



## Kam Sandhu (10 Oct 2014)

mr. luke said:


> Id remove the reflectors and only use a songle light until it clears.
> Reduce the light and remove it and see if the algae stops.
> I had a small problem with high light that I thought was quite low and turning off one of the units fixed my problem



Removing reflectors are not a problem, unfortunately its not possible to run a single light on a Juwel hood.


----------



## mr. luke (10 Oct 2014)

Wht dont you turn one over and attach it to the underside of one of the tubes?


----------



## Kam Sandhu (10 Oct 2014)

mr. luke said:


> Wht dont you turn one over and attach it to the underside of one of the tubes?



LOL, I didnt think of that, wicked idea.


----------



## ian_m (10 Oct 2014)

mr. luke said:


> Why dont you turn one over and attach it to the underside of one of the tubes?


That's what I did when I started my tank. I was using 2 x 25W T8's over 180litres. After a month or so rotated the reflectors round to increase light levels. Saw no algae.

You have 90Watts of light and unless your tanks if over 350litres (90US gals) & therefore less than 1Watt/gallon and unless you are careful, you will get algae issues with that level of light.


----------



## ceg4048 (10 Oct 2014)

Kam Sandhu said:


> I (as most people) assume I have good CO2 distribution. I keep my drop checker on the opposite side to my diffuser and it is always a nice green when lights go on, I see tiny CO2 bubbles all over my tank, right to the furthest corners. All plants are growing well and spreading. So how do you tell if there really is a CO2 problem?


Because you have GDA mate. It's that simple. People love to buy test kits to supposedly tell them what their water parameters are, but the best test kit in the world are your plants and algae.
So when you see the first signs of GDA, or any algae for that matter, immediately, the first reaction should be to cut your light intensity by at least 50% because light is at the top of the food chain. It drives everything. Your CO2 and distribution might have been fine for lower light intensities, but not for the intensity you have now. So if you want to keep using that light intensity then you have to have amazing CO2/flow/distribution. Since it's very difficult for people to be amazing then the easiest path is to start your tank with much lower intensity than you have now. Julian touched on this in his post #4. We are programmed by The Matrix to add as much light as possible, but this is the wrong path.

Again, watching bubbles is a pointless endeavor. You need to look at the pH profile in order to determine how the CO2 is behaving as well as to reduce the light. 




Kam Sandhu said:


> So algae would be expected?


Again, I don't know where that is written, somewhere in The Matrix no doubt. I don't get algae and I don't expect it. You should only expect algae if you are doing something wrong.

Cheers,


----------



## Kam Sandhu (10 Oct 2014)

This is why I love this forum. Fantastic advice.

As soon as I get home I will remove one reflector and turn the other upside down, run on one light and see how things go.

Is it best to leave CO2 at the current rate? Or can I reduce it due to less lighting?


----------



## ceg4048 (10 Oct 2014)

Well Again, one can never have too much CO2 as far as plants are concerned. This only becomes an issue if fauna are involved. So if there are no fauna then I would turn the CO2 up as much as I could afford to buy CO2.

As I mentioned, sometimes it's not the amount of CO2 being injected that is problematic, but the timing of the CO2. The water needs to have max saturation when the lights first come on. If that doesn't happen then the plants can suffer which will trigger an algal bloom. So even if you have high CO2 later in the day, the damage would have been don at the beginning of the photoperiod and then it's too late to have high CO2. That's why you should do a pH profile check.

Also we have no idea about your distribution technique. We cannot see how it is accomplished based on your earlier photo. If you could show us how the filter outlet(s) and any auxiliary pumps/powerheads are arranged we could have a better analysis.

Cheers,


----------



## Kam Sandhu (10 Oct 2014)

Cool, I will leave CO2 level as it is.

Currently CO2 comes on 1.5 hours before lights, drop checker is green but not lime green. So today I have increased that to 2 hours.

Lights on for 4.5 hours, CO2 off 1 hour before lights off and the drop checker is a very lime green.

Here are pics of my filter and powerhead. Albeit, photos are not great.











So the lily pipe is pointing towards the front glass and up to ripple the surface, the powerhead is above the CO2 diffuser pointing right to left.


----------



## ian_m (10 Oct 2014)

Kam Sandhu said:


> So the lily pipe is pointing towards the front glass and up to ripple the surface, the powerhead is above the CO2 diffuser pointing right to left.


(I see no lily pipe ?). This setup will immediately have CO2 distribution problems, especially in area below the powerhead, all the rear wall and in my experience in the opposite diagonal corner. This will get worse as plants grow and block the poor flow you have. This poor distribution and flow and too much light explains your issues. I assume that is algae on back of tank as well, reinforcing my observation of poor rear flow.

Using the my Juwel internal 600l/hr filter, even attempting to make my own spray bar, I got nothing like the flow and distribution I get now with a decent external filter and spray bar.


----------



## Kam Sandhu (10 Oct 2014)

ian_m said:


> (I see no lily pipe ?). This setup will immediately have CO2 distribution problems, especially in area below the powerhead, all the rear wall and in my experience in the opposite diagonal corner. This will get worse as plants grow and block the poor flow you have. This poor distribution and flow and too much light explains your issues. I assume that is algae on back of tank as well, reinforcing my observation of poor rear flow.
> 
> Using the my Juwel internal 600l/hr filter, even attempting to make my own spray bar, I got nothing like the flow and distribution I get now with a decent external filter and spray bar.



Maybe lily pipe isn't the correct term. I meant filter outlet. 

And yes that is algae across the back. That's where the most is. 

Unfortunately, at the moment, an external filter is now an option. 

I don't mind moving outlets, powerhead etc. Any suggestions?


----------



## ceg4048 (10 Oct 2014)

It is highly probable that poor distribution, combined with poor injection rate is a major contributor here. All filter outlets should point in the same direction and it would be better if they were all mounted on the back wall facing forward. You should adhere to the 10X rule. Internal filters are notoriously weak so you should remove at least half of the filter media to improve throughput and it may even be necessary to add another powerhead or two along the back wall to supplement flow. Review the thread http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/water-flow-in-the-planted-aquarium.1167/ for more details regarding flow/distribution.

Again, a pH profile check is the best way to analyze the CO2 dissolution effectiveness. You really need to perform this check.

Cheers,


----------



## ian_m (10 Oct 2014)

This is a lily pipe. A nice expensive easily broken way of getting the water back into your tank.









Kam Sandhu said:


> And yes that is algae across the back. That's where the most is.


That is symptomatic of poor CO2 distribution (along with too much light).

I made a spray bar out of PVC tube (22mm I think) to try with my 600l/hr Juwel internal filter, to try before converting my tank to high tech, as I didn't want to buy an external filter. It was a failure as flow was clearly not enough for my tank width. The flow did move across the top of the tank, but really nothing at front substrate level, put a bit of fish poo at front, it moved a bit and just settled down and plants at rear of tank hardly moved at all. For a planted high tech tank should be at least x10 flow for tank volume, so 1800litres/hour in my case, 600l/hr clear won't work.

I assume you have a Juwel 260, as 2 x 54W, you will be looking at least 2600l/hr filtration rate, the internal 1000l/hr falling hopelessly short, even with half the media removed as suggested and a powerhead.

Something like a JBL1501 (1400l/hr) or even the monster JBL1900 (1900l/hr) in conjunction with internal filter and power head are unfortunately the only way forward if you wish to remain high tech.

Also CO2 injection via glass diffuser on a tank this size won't cut it (as shown by your fine algae specimens).

I started on my 180litre with a JBL 1501 (1400l/hr) + 600l/hr internal filter and glass CO2 diffuser and it was pretty obvious I had CO2 distribution issue, patches of reoccurring algae on the glass. Main give away was putting the drop checker at various places around the tank it was blue/green at lights on time rather than lime green when placed optimally in the tank. An inline CO2 diffuser on filter outlet (and later a power head as still got blue green drop checker at bottom front left) got a lime green drop checker where ever I placed it in the tank.


----------



## Kam Sandhu (10 Oct 2014)

I have a Rio 180 with 1000lph juwel power head plus a 1600 lhp hydor. The lights are 2 x 45w.

Placing my drop checker on the opposite side to my diffuser does give me a nice lime green colour.

I have moved my hydor to under the filter out let now, pointing towards the front, I tried moving my diffuser and managed to crack it. No way I can get one today, so while I wait for a new one I will take this opportunity to do a black out.

What diffuser do you recommend.

Ideally, at the moment I really don't want to go the external filter route.


----------



## ian_m (10 Oct 2014)

Kam Sandhu said:


> What diffuser do you recommend.


I recommend the inline diffusers, but are for use with external filters (or external pumped loop).

Worth trying your new arrangement, clean the algae off the back and see if it comes back. Not convinced one can get an even flow across the whole width of the tank from two "point sources".


----------



## Kam Sandhu (10 Oct 2014)

Cheers. 

I'll put in a new diffuser on Sunday, clean and water change and report back. 

The plan is to go external eventually. But I want to try and make this a bit of an success with an internal filter before making a purchase.


----------



## ian_m (10 Oct 2014)

Kam Sandhu said:


> But I want to try and make this a bit of an success with an internal filter before making a purchase


I am not sure you can be that successful with your light level. The light level means you must have good CO2 and to get good CO2 you need good flow, namely even flow across the whole width of the tank.

Have a read of this..note the bit on flow and flow patterns.
http://www.ukaps.org/index.php?page=setting-up-a-higher-tech-planted-tank

Zooplus do the JBLe1501 for £149. This would be ideal for your 180l tank, along with slight spray bar extension to cover whole width of tank and internal filter gives 2400l/hr. Job done.

I extended the spray bar on my tank as it is about 20cm short and in that missing area all the tank detritus used to collect despite trying to use the internal filter to get flow in that area. Also JBK1501 is 16/22mm pipe, so putting inline CO2 diffuser is a no brainer. Job done. Wallet empty.


----------



## Kam Sandhu (10 Oct 2014)

Food for thought. Need to convince swmbo. 

But if I was to go external I'd rip out the internal. 

Would a spray bar with a hydor be OK? Or hydor plus outlet from an external filter enough?


----------



## ian_m (10 Oct 2014)

I left my internal in, as if I extended the JBL1501 spray bar across the whole width the flow might not have been sufficient. Any way below is a video of flow from JB1501.


Giving an algae free tank like this (was a while ago).





The JBL1501 fits perfectly in the Vision 180 cabinet as well.


----------



## Bhu (10 Oct 2014)

I have a new set up 3 weeks in no algae. Fully planted lots of shrimps are key  as well as high co2 injection and distribution. Also water changes to remove plant toxins and fish waste etc. Really important in new aquariums. 30% a day would be no problem to the things you want to keep. But would hinder algae.


----------



## Kam Sandhu (11 Oct 2014)

Thanks for the replies.

So I went scouting at the lfs, the are doing the fluval 306 and 406 at a decent price. Would a 406 be good enough with my hydor?

Also do the sodastream bottles have enough pressure for an inline atomizer? 

Ian, looking at ur video, what is left in the juwel internal filter?


----------



## ian_m (11 Oct 2014)

Do you mean filter type stuff left or bits and bobs to the left.

I use two fine and two coarse filter foams + floss in the filter, needs cleaning at weekly water change.

Left of filter is juwel pump hanging there, outlets of my dosing pumps and big tube is fresh water in from my butt.

other wires/pipes are air line and lead to wave maker.


----------



## Kam Sandhu (11 Oct 2014)

So ur using the internal filter plus the external?

Would a fluval 406 plus my hydor be sufficient? Or is the 406 overkill? Or eheim 2073 Or A 2075.


----------



## papa_c (12 Oct 2014)

Hi Kam, have a look at aquamanta 400 filter, they deliver 1400 lph flow at a very reasonable price. The AM 400 filter runs quietly and has a good build quality. no fancy at gizmos that bump the pride up, would a farmer plough a field with a show pony, he would choose the cart horse every time! My advice is don't eat money on fancy names and marketing! 
Sent from my Lumia 1520 using Tapatalk


----------



## Kam Sandhu (12 Oct 2014)

papa_cee said:


> Hi Kam, have a look at aquamanta 400 filter, they deliver 1400 lph flow at a very reasonable price. The AM 400 filter runs quietly and has a good build quality. no fancy at gizmos that bump the pride up, would a farmer plough a field with a show pony, he would choose the cart horse every time! My advice is don't eat money on fancy names and marketing!
> Sent from my Lumia 1520 using Tapatalk



I'm not to keen on the aquamanta, my sister has one and I didn't really like it. I'll probably get a fluval 406 since the eheim pro 3 won't fit in the cabinet.

I'll get an inline co2 diffuse and and external hydor heater as well.


----------



## Kam Sandhu (14 Oct 2014)

Update so far,

on the weekend I cleaned most of the algae off, still some stubborn bits left on the rear glass. I'll deal with those next weekend.

Done a big water change, reduced lighting to one bulb and no reflector. So far so good, water looks clean and no more algae.

I have ordered a Fluval 406, inline atomizer and hydor inline heater. I plan on setting these up next weekend.

Once all is settled, I will slowly attempt to increase the lighting.


----------



## Kam Sandhu (21 Oct 2014)

Update: Still running on one tube for 5 hours, not a spec of algae 

I am now in the possession of a Fluval 406, Hydor ETH and inline atomiser, plan to install these over the weekend.


----------



## Bhu (21 Oct 2014)

Sounds good  is that an increase in flow then?


----------



## Kam Sandhu (21 Oct 2014)

Bhu said:


> Sounds good  is that an increase in flow then?



Yes it will be, currently I have the Juwel internal filter @ 1000lph (so they say) and a Hydor powerhead at 1600lph. 

The Fluval will give me 1450 lph.


----------



## Kam Sandhu (4 Nov 2014)

Another update, for anyone who is interested.

So its been over a week with the Fluval 406 installed with the inline diffuser and I am running with 2 tubes again (no reflectors).

So far not a sign of GDA. Diatoms keep popping up though.

So far so good, been moving the drop checker around the tank to make sure CO2 is getting around.

Java fern is growing nicely, elocharis mini is growing slowly but surely.

Next step will be to increase photo period to 6 hours.

Anyone have any thoughts on media for the 406. Currently I have a mixture of the Fluval bits and media from my juwel internal.

Plan is to remove the juwel media over many weeks and i was thinking of this.

4th tray - Purigen | Bio Max
3rd tray Bio Max + Filter wool | Bio Max + Filter Wool
2nd tray Carbon | Carbon
1st tray Bio foam | Bio foam


----------



## drodgers (4 Nov 2014)

ian_m said:


> A nice expensive easily broken way of getting the water back into your tank


 but they do look handsome


----------

