# 1 Point pH Drop and CO2 Diffusion



## sonicninja (18 May 2014)

Hi everyone,

I have a planted ADA 60P tank which is my first attempt at an aquascape and so far its going distinctly 'ok'.
Ive posted a couple of threads on here on various subjects and it's become a really helpful resource for someone who's learning like me!

I've read on this and other forums that as a general rule of thumb I should aim for a 1 point pH drop between CO2 On and Lights On phases however Im finding this difficult to do. I have a lime green drop checker and a steady supply of pressurised CO2 but although my plants aren't dying (much) they also aren't growing and certainly at no disernable rate. I think my frustration is that I often see tanks in my LFS's which seem to go to none of the lengths I go to but still achieve superb growth and I have a funny feeling there is something basic I'm missing. If anyone has any suggestions on what I could change I'd really appreciate it. Currently between CO2 On and Lights On I'm only getting a pH reduction from 7.3-7.0ish, I'm hesitant to increase my CO2 BPS rate as I have fish in the tank and don't want them to suffer. I've included a couple of pics showing the set-up and how my powerhead and atomizer are positioned too. Any suggestions would be great!

*Set-Up-*
ADA 60p 65 litres
2KG FE with CO2 Art Dual Reg
Atomizer running directly under Hydor Pico Powerhead
TMC LED 400 Tiles x 2 on Controller

*Timings-*
CO2 On @ 4pm-12pm
TMC Lights On @ 5pm-12pm (60min dim either side)
TMC Light @ 27% Intensity
3 BPS From CO2

*Ferts-*
Fertlising Daily using TNC EI Wet Dosing (dosing using TNC website calculator)

50% Water Change weekly using 100% RO re-mineralised with JBL AquaDur


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## allan angus (18 May 2014)

i think that's a stunning tank well done ! [DOUBLEPOST=1400439150][/DOUBLEPOST]if you are not getting the ph change you require i would say all you can do is incress the co2. as long as your short on a safe lvl of co2 you wont see the results you want . well a thoght for what its worth a better difuser? im not much up on them but i use an inline one and that seems fine to me with little misting and good co2 in the tank.


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## Ryan Thang To (18 May 2014)

I'm hoping you meant lights on 5pm to 12am?


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## sonicninja (18 May 2014)

Yes, whoops! 5pm-12am


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## Ryan Thang To (18 May 2014)

Lol. My water is hard so what I do is set co2 to to come on 2 - 3 hours before light. Try 2 hours first then up it if you needed to.
Cheers 
Ryan


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## tim (18 May 2014)

You can also try staring co2 earlier 2 hours before lights on off 1 hour before lights off is what a lot of folk on here run, plants really need optimum co2 at lights on, mine runs 3 hours before lights on off 2 hours before lights off, keeps fish and plants happy.


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## parotet (18 May 2014)

Nice tank sonicninja. I got the same set up: same tank volume, redmoorposirion, co2 reg, atomizer... (See my journal called #2). And I really understand your feeling. I think I'm living now the sweet moment in my tank but I have spent 6 months fine-tuning lights, co2, flow, ferts and so on. That's what happens when you are a newbie!

My advice is to work with low lights (you will have time to play harder, but your life will be easier keeping light low), make sure your ferts are ok (just follow EI) and improve your flow and co2. Each step forward I did was thinking that there was no room for more improvement, but little details are really important. Try different outflows, change plants position if they don't work, move or simplify the redmoor structure. 2x WC weekly helped a lot while adjusting the setup. Regarding co2, at least in my setup I have 3 bps using an inline atomizer, that is quite a lot... My water is not just hard, it is liquid rock (kH probably around 12). I managed to have a bit more than 1 unit pH drop switching co2 3 hours before lights on and I switch it off 1 hour before lights off... You can see some figures on the journal. Fish and shrimps are doing very well.

Good luck, your tank looks promising

Jordi


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## Sacha (18 May 2014)

First of all your tank looks great. I think as soon as you get your Co2 sorted out it will be looking how you want it to in no time. 

I see you're using 100% RO remineralised with JBL Aquadur. I do the exact same thing. I'm wondering about your pH of 7.3 though. My pH before lights on is about 6.9- 7. Do you know what KH you are re- mineralising to? 

How much surface agitation do you have? It might be worth fiddling with your powerhead to eliminate all surface agitation completely. In that second photo it looks like the powerhead might be making quite a disturbance? That will drive off your Co2.


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## sonicninja (18 May 2014)

Cheers for the advice everyone. I've already adjusted my CO2 on time to be 2hrs prior to the lights so I'll see if that helps.
In regards to my AquaDur, I've only just started using this for a number of reasons (one being moderate nitrate levels in my tap water) so I mix with 100%RO. 
After some advice on here regarding other issues I had (fish deaths) in mixing to achieve a TDS and not a specific pH/KH. I was skeptical but so far the results are pleasing and the fish much happier. 
The powerhead was really just a reaction to an issue I had with my precision CO2 valve which was faulty and one day allowed far too much CO2 through resulting in several very near fish deaths. I wanted to ensure enough atmospheric air was getting into the water, I can easily move it down if you think it will help though


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## Sacha (18 May 2014)

I do indeed think it will help. 

What TDS do you remineralise to? 150 is a good starting point.


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## sonicninja (18 May 2014)

Precisely 150. Powerhead has now been moved down too.
Also thinking about your post on here about your atomiser Sasha, I'm not 100% sure mine is a decent one and might be a cheap Chinese knock-off. Do you get a good mist from yours or smallish bubbles?


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## Sacha (18 May 2014)

Yours is an in- tank one right? Mine is in- line. I have a good ceramic in- tank one that I don't use anymore. It's a good one. Gives a fine mist. I'll give it to you when I pick up the FE and you can see if it is an improvement.


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## Edvet (19 May 2014)

You dont have a large plantmass yet, so probably you need a little less CO2, I would very gradually increase it to try to get it to a full point drop eventually. Just keep watching your fish. I have a pH drop from 6.6  to 5.5  with plenty surface movement and no problems with the fish.


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## parotet (19 May 2014)

Yeah, I agree with Edvet... make sure you have nice surface ripples. This will let you max your CO2, your O2 and eventually you'll get rid of film surface. That was another of the small details that improved quite a lot my tank.

Jordi


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## Sacha (19 May 2014)

It's all about the balance. Too much surface agitation and you might as well not be using Co2 at all.


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## Edvet (19 May 2014)

I have 2 large circulation pumps (koralia 6000 and 12000) alternating, they both ripple the surface, and i have a sump the water falls in which in my mind takes out all the CO2. Yet i manage a full point drop.


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## sonicninja (19 May 2014)

Just out of interest what substrates are you all using?


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## Edvet (19 May 2014)

See my link. Just simple riversand/gravel


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## sonicninja (19 May 2014)

I always felt I should have shelled out and gone for ADA Amazonia but it's difficult to tell if my substrate is decent as this is my first plated tank and I have nothing to compare it too.


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## Edvet (19 May 2014)

As long as you dose ferts enough (EI style) there's nothing wrong with a sand/gravel bottom.
Have alook at this:http://ukaps.org/forum/threads/discussion-on-substrate-and-fertilization.29520/


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## sonicninja (19 Jun 2014)

So a little update. I nearly created another thread but thought it might be good to keep it in one place. 
So I'm still struggling with this tank and getting healthy growth throughout, maybe im being impatient....or maybe not but it seems that despite my tweaking nothing is improving. 

I have changed my method of compiling my water change as moved the powerhead and in tank atomizer down towards the substrate. I've continued EI dosing and kept everything as steady as possible with no changes to BPS and so far its yielded nothing 
I'm trying not to get frustrated but I feel like a lot of hard work is getting me no-where so I'm back to square 1.

Since the last update my Staurogyn Repens has died a death and has all but gone, every day i return home to see a host of leaves sat at the top of the tank. Generally the hygrophilia is doing ok but generally nothing grows at any rate and some plants just seem to stay exactly the same with no growth and very slow death. What I'm finding most difficult is to see/perceive positive or negative change and then react to it. I know its important to get the CO2 stable but how patient should I be before expecting results? 

I think I got caught in the 'more light is more growth' trap and I've now taken the lights back down to 25% intensity after slowly raising them. I know I can grow the Staurogyn Repens as it started to take off before but im amazed at how quickly it has died. 

To clarify this is how im running the tank now-

Weekly Water Change of 50% (80% RO Re-Mineralised to 80TDS + 20% Tap achieving total TDS of 150)
CO2 on @ 14:30-23:00 (2-3BPS)
Lights on @17:00-00:00 (now with 15min dim either side)

I have an inline diffuser which I could use on my external filter but it does slow down over the course of a couple of weeks which would affect the consistence of the CO2 level since it would be connected to the outflow. 
If anyone has any suggestions I'd be very happy to hear them, I know that the CO2 isn't diffusing into the water correctly but i cant see what else i can do!

Cheers!


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## parotet (20 Jun 2014)

Hi sonicninja... I know what you mean, it also took me some months to fine tune my co2 enriched tank. Not sure if I can help you but here are some observations (not objective measures nor scientific data though):

- light and co2 stability are very important. If I'm not wrong I'm using now the same co2 injection for 7 months or more. If changes in light heigh are done, it is just 5 cm a week. Plants need time to adapt to these light/co2 conditions, and as experts explain to us in this forum this physiological change is quite important and may take weeks.

- to be honest my hair grass and Staurogyne are now growing much better, now that my light fixture is 20 cm lower (it was very high, at 40 cm, and now at 20 cm)... But two observations, I just have 48w T5 very high over a 65 liters tank, so I really have a Co2 enriched low light tank (most people say that this lights to be effective should be used just 15 cm over the tank). And the other thing is that even if most of the plants seem happier now (20 cm above the water) I am not really sure if this is due to more light or to the fact that I increased the light once all the growth was really stable. 

- in my case I saw a big change once the plant biomass in the tank reached a significant volume. And this took one or two months. It happened especially with ferns (Bolbitis and Java trident). The bigger the plants, the more stable regarding their growth and health... I suppose the plant has much more photosynthetic surface, reserve tissues, uptake capacity, etc.

- the biomass issue had also a significant impact on algae control. I guess it has to do with much more O2 production, that surface for bacteria has been multiplied by 1,000, etc.

- and the most important lessons I learnt: things are never the same in your tank. New growth means less flow and distribution, also more ferts and co2 needs. New plant distribution means different conditions of light, ferts exposition, etc.

... Sorry for this long thread  but One last thing, I also became a fan of WCs. If I can, I do 2x week around 50%. IMO plants love them

Jordi


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## parotet (20 Jun 2014)

sonicninja said:


> moved the powerhead and in tank atomizer down towards the substrate


 I have just read that... not sure if it is the best option. At least for me the best option has been a spraybar all along the back, jets hiting the front glass and at the same time creating a nice rippling. This way I achieve a circular flow that moves all the plants



sonicninja said:


> I'm trying not to get frustrated but I feel like a lot of hard work is getting me no-where


Yep, looks crazy isn't it? So much work devoted to just a glass cube. I also used to feel mad reading about layouts' descriptions, especially regarding time devoted to maintenance (for example, 30 min weekly for 100 liters tank) and I use to think "man... you must be very very bad", but now I understand that once everything is adjusted, the time devoted is minimum, just for WC and trimming. Nevertheless, it should better say: Time for "physically" maintenance = 30 min, Time devoted to think/read/learn/worry about you tank = + 4 hours/day

Jordi


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## Sacha (20 Jun 2014)

Damn.. Sorry to read this. I'm surprised that Stauro died- it looked like it was just about to take off  

Personally I would say you should move the diffuser and powerhead back to the position they were in before. Having seen the tank in the flesh, the circulation around the tank looked absolutely perfect how you had it before. I would say you should go back to that configuration, and turn up the gas. Have it come on 2.5 hours before the lights, and sit watching the fish towards the end of the photoperiod. If they only start struggling towards the end, then set the Co2 to go off earlier. If they start struggling sooner, reduce the bubble rate. 

I think the problem is simply not enough Co2. I don't think you ever found that "sweet spot"- the amount of Co2 just below the threshold at which the fish start to get stressed.


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## Sacha (20 Jun 2014)

Just read your co2 and light schedule. I would increase the Co2, and have it go off at 22:00, or even 21:30. This will compensate for you increasing the bubble rate.


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## sonicninja (20 Jun 2014)

Thanks for the help Sascha & parotet, much appreciated.

So do you suggest- CO2 on from 14:30-22:00 & Lights on from 17:00-00:00 with an increased BPS of maybe 3?

I agree i've never found a sweet spot. It feels very much like the plants are hanging in there, some do well but they are hardy plants that dont require much in the way of CO2. Hopefully I can get the Stauro back up and growing nicely. The issue Ive had is since I've never really had a significant development in growth its been difficult for me to find the sweet spot, ive gone through a lot a plants and a lot of frustration too!

Since moving the powerhead and atomizer down things have only gone downhill which goes against what I'd expect. I'll leave the atomizer where it is but move the powerhead further above it and see what that does. Ive also set the lights at approx 15cm above the water surface.


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## Lee Sweeting (20 Jun 2014)

Beautiful tank, I'm loving the hardscape. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Julian (20 Jun 2014)

5 hours doesn't seem like long enough of a photo period, you can have as longer of a period as you want, just keep the lights down. I know you've lowered them to 25% but honestly I'd say go lower. I have a similar set up and mine are at 15%.

A longer photo period with lower lights will do more than a 'short burst' of bright lights.

Also a little tip, which is purely for aesthetics, set the MIN LV on one of the channels to 1% - gives you a very nice moonlight effect in the tank. I had to do it at 3% as my lights didn't even come on at 1%!


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## sonicninja (20 Jun 2014)

Thanks Julian. I did have a 1% MIN but stopped with it as I was concerned it would be enough to encourage algae. Maybe I'll consider extending the photoperiod, anyone else care to agree/disagree with this or suggest how long?


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## Julian (20 Jun 2014)

I think you should determine the photoperiod by how long your co2 is stable for. You want a lime green DC at lights on, then when it turns yellow (keep an eye on your live stock) is when your co2 shuts off, followed by the lights a couple of hours later. Lime green DC at lights on is the most important, its like breakfast time for the plants. Once you know the duration of the lights, you can then tweak the intensity. Start out low and work your way up 2% every week until you start to see signs of algae. That's what I've been doing anyway, seems to be working well so far.


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## Sacha (21 Jun 2014)

All great advice here. 

Just remember Keith- you have all the elements of the beautiful lush aquascape you're wishing for. You have a great looking basic layout- the hardscape and plants are laid out great. That is more than half the battle already completed. Getting the plants to grow well requires less of that creative thinking, and a lot of simple trial and error. The hard work has already been done. 

Just crank up the Co2 on a day when you can observe the fish for any signs of stress.


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## sonicninja (21 Jun 2014)

Thanks again for the advice everyone. Is it generally a good idea to have the CO2 on for a longer period at a lower rate or a shorter period on a higher rate? Should I just experiment with that myself?

I have added an additional hour of 'lights on' and set the CO2 to come on to reflect that. I'll increase the BPS rate as well and see how the fish are today.


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## parotet (22 Jun 2014)

Not sure, but a higher bubble rate can be more difficult for your fish... Less time for facing a very relevant change in their physiology, but experts will give you a better advice than mine.

Probably the best thing would be to switch on the co2 at least 2 hours before lights on and have enough BPS until you see good growth, no algae and no harm on fish... Then adjust downwards until you notice problems so you can save gas and money. I read this advice from other members and it worked for me. But again this make no sense if other issues are not fine tuned, such as flow, spraybar/outlet position, plants' position, hardscape position, etc. IMO the way to go is:

Adjust light how you want => ensure enough filtration (do you need all the filter media? Do you have enough filtration for this growth rate?) => improve flow (outlet position, change to spraybar, spraybar position, spraybar jets adjustments, ensure good O2 both night and day. The more light, the better flow needed) => make sure plants and hardscape don't block flow or light => ensure pH drop according to your water hardness (test your the upper limits concerning co2 injection... How much co2 can be injected without harming fish) => fine tune timing and BPS to save gas and give a security margin to your critters => ensure enough ferts in the water column

The more light, the better adjustments needed and any mistake will mean an algae outbreak. That is why the most experience aquascapers recommend low/medium lights enriched co2 planted tanks... It is a way of maximizing light use, having a high growth rate and having a good security margin. Once you've manage to do it, you will probably want to play harder... but remember to always address your adjustments taking into account all these issues.
The other way is low light non enriched planted tanks, safer for your critters and no need of such a perfect fine tuning.

This is what I learnt from the great plant growers here! Great forum isn't it? (Should be mandatory in every aquarium sets sold!)

Jordi


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