# Signs of deficiency , E.I, floating plants.



## BexM (11 Mar 2015)

Hello. I am getting really fed up with my tank. Here are the details.

55(ish) gallon bow front.
Eheim 2217.
Spray bar along the back running the whole length.
Diy Co2 fed into the filter intake.
2x39w t8 (I tried t5s but the problem is worse)

16 harlequin rasbora
1 SAE
2 german blue ram

Problem: pale growth, big dark veins, stunting, wrinkles and curling. 

I am dosing pre mixed e.i and had initially thought that it was a co2 problem so I lowered the light and did my best to maximise flow and co2 absorption. I cant afford pressurised and the thought of a pressurIsed canister under the tank freaks me out because of my kids. I used to be a welder so you think it wouldn't bother me but it does!. 

But now I can see problems with the mini water lettuce and as they are not limited by co2 that must mean it's something else right?

Could they be sucking up all the goodies and leaving none for the rest of the plants as they are spreading really fast?


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## Edvet (11 Mar 2015)

How is your EI and micro's dosing?


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## BexM (11 Mar 2015)




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## BexM (11 Mar 2015)




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## BexM (11 Mar 2015)

I'm using the e.I starter kit from aquariumplantfood.com and following the instructions. So it's mixed in a bottles and dosed alternate days.


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## BexM (11 Mar 2015)

50% water change every sunday.


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## Andy D (11 Mar 2015)

The symptoms you describe sound like nutrient deficiencies so  I would suggest increasing the dosage and see how this goes. Maybe start with 1.5 X the dosage?


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## BexM (11 Mar 2015)

Poor anubias. This is my favourite plant.


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## BexM (11 Mar 2015)

Andy D said:


> The symptoms you describe sound like nutrient deficiencies so  I would suggest increasing the dosage and see how this goes. Maybe start with 1.5 X the dosage?


Ok, good idea. Do you think getting rid of the floaters might help?


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## BexM (11 Mar 2015)




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## BexM (11 Mar 2015)

Sorry for all the pictures. I've been seeing just about every symptom you can get. Even pinholes in older leaves but I think that seems to have got better.


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## Marcel G (11 Mar 2015)

What kind of substrate do you use? Nutrient-poor or nutrient-rich? Can you post a picture of the whole tank also (front view)?


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## BexM (11 Mar 2015)

I did have dirt in there but then I got an infestation of aquatic worms that kept leaving casts on the surface. Then dirt would get all over the plants and in the water column. So I removed the dirt and used tetra initial sticks and a mix of dorset pea gravel and a special gravel for plants that is porous...can't remember the name.

Thats why I started e.i dosing as well.


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## BexM (11 Mar 2015)




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## Andy D (11 Mar 2015)

BexM said:


> Ok, good idea. Do you think getting rid of the floaters might help?


 
Not really as this will increase the light intensity again. I would just up the dosage and see how this goes.


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## Marcel G (11 Mar 2015)

I have some experience with the issue of some plants not growing well (or at all) in nutrient-poor substrates. So there is a possibility that some plants may not grow well unless you plant them into some good substrate (although it should help if you use some nutrient sticks). It's definitely wrong to assert that all plants should do well under EI dosing regardless of the substrate used. Try to grow different plants in EI water without any substrate and you'll see what am I speaking about.


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## BexM (11 Mar 2015)

I could try to add some root tabs. I'm puzzled by the floating plants though because they seem to be showing similar symptoms as the anubias.


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## dw1305 (11 Mar 2015)

Hi all,





BexM said:


> But now I can see problems with the mini water lettuce and as they are not limited by co2 that must mean it's something else right?


I'd try upping the amount of nitrogen and potassium (you can just add KNO3 if you have that separately?), and after that magnesium (as Epsom Salts Mg SO4.7H2O).

If your tank water is very hard? it maybe iron (Fe) or magnesium (Mg) deficiency, caused by the ratio of Ca:Mg, or the limited availability of Fe at high  pH values.  

You can see some "_interveinal  chlorosis_" (see image below) on the older Water Lettuce and_ Anubias_ leaves, and magnesium is very mobile within the plant, whilst Iron isn't.


 


BexM said:


> Could they be sucking up all the goodies and leaving none for the rest of the plants as they are spreading really fast?...........2x39w t8 (I tried t5s but the problem is worse)


 The fact that the Water Lettuce is growing well shows that the tank it isn't majorally deficient in any of the macro nutrients. 

The other thing you need to remember is that chlorophyll is a protein, and its synthesis makes quite high demands on the plant. The plant will only synthesise as much chlorophyll as it needs to harvest the available light. 

Lots of light = less green plants.

If you have more light than the plant can utilise the additional light energy will begin to damage the chlorophyll. These are what Clive memorably described as <"photon torpedoes">. 

Personally I'd keep the floaters, you can always thin them to 50% cover once a week.

cheers Darrel


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## dw1305 (11 Mar 2015)

Hi all,





BexM said:


> dorset pea gravel


Assuming that is the cream coloured limestone gravel? That makes it more likely it is a problem with the Ca:Mg ratio.

If it is the multicoloured flint gravel? it may include chalk. If it is entirely flint based? it won't effect water chemistry.

Looking at the last photo you definitely seem to have plenty of light. I'd expect to growth pick up as the tank becomes more mature and you begin to get zones with reduced oxygen levels in the substrate.

cheers Darrel


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## EnderUK (11 Mar 2015)

Have you thought about not using CO2 as your lighting level should be in the low light level with 2xT8s, this should slow everything down. You might even consider using liquid carbon rather than DIY. Seems strange to have deficiency when your light is at this level.


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## Jose (11 Mar 2015)

I have the same kind of growth with my ludwigia and its definately a co2 issue (or at least it gets fixed by upping the co2 in my case). Maybe different causes show the same effects on the plants. Or maybe deficiencies can be solved in more than one way. All I know is that I dont know a thing.
In the end its trial and error.


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## BexM (11 Mar 2015)

Jose said:


> I have the same kind of growth with my ludwigia and its definately a co2 issue (or at least it gets fixed by upping the co2 in my case). Maybe different causes show the same effects on the plants. Or maybe deficiencies can be solved in more than one way. All I know is that I dont know a thing.
> In the end its trial and error.


I hear you there. The more I learn the more confused I become.


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## ian_m (11 Mar 2015)

Your EI dosing is correct, you don't need a "good substrate" (what ever that is) as most aquatic plants can take nutrients from the water column (else how would people get such wonderful tanks with sand ??) and 55UK gallons -> 66US gallons -> 1.3W/US gallon, so light not excessively high.

The following facts all point to one cause:-


BexM said:


> Problem: pale growth, big dark veins, stunting, wrinkles and curling





BexM said:


> Diy Co2 fed into the filter intake.





BexM said:


> (I tried t5s but the problem is worse)



To not beat around the bush, getting straight to the point, you CO2 levels are crap  as indicated by the plants. You have CO2 level issues, the plants are telling (if not shouting) out this. Changing to T5's will just make a bad situation worse, as you have found out.

You don't state if you have a drop checker or pH pen to ascertain CO2 levels, but in my experience (unless you are a very very very very experienced DIY CO2 person) there is no point in them as they will all read extremely poor CO2 levels. DIY CO2 is very fickle and very hard to get any decent successful level of CO2, even enough CO2 for T8 light levels.

Remember 99.999% of aquatic plant issues (seen here on UKAPPS), even with T8 lights, is poor CO2 levels. All this Ca:Mg ratios is a distraction from the what the plants are saying.

So way forward:
- Pressurised CO2 to get proper measureable CO2 levels. I have pressurised CO2 cylinders at work, hanging on the wall (how dangerous might fall off), they are call fire extinguishers. No one has died yet.
- Use liquid carbon.
- Halve or even quarter the light levels and hope that fish poo and rotting food provides enough carbon.


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## BexM (11 Mar 2015)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> I'd try upping the amount of nitrogen and potassium (you can just add KNO3 if you have that separately?), and after that magnesium (as Epsom Salts Mg SO4.7H2O).
> 
> If your tank water is very hard? it maybe iron (Fe) or magnesium (Mg) deficiency, caused by the ratio of Ca:Mg, or the limited availability of Fe at high  pH values.
> ...


Thank you for your detailed reply. Yes the water here is indeed very hard.

Could I just add extra to the mix? I'm trying to keep this as simple as I can.


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## BexM (11 Mar 2015)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,Assuming that is the cream coloured limestone gravel? That makes it more likely it is a problem with the Ca:Mg ratio.
> 
> If it is the multicoloured flint gravel? it may include chalk. If it is entirely flint based? it won't effect water chemistry.
> 
> ...


Oh no  it is mostly the new stuff and I just added a little to bulk it up because I couldn't afford another bag of porous stuff. Like I said our water is from limestone aquifers round here so that is most likely the cause.


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## BexM (11 Mar 2015)

EnderUK said:


> Have you thought about not using CO2 as your lighting level should be in the low light level with 2xT8s, this should slow everything down. You might even consider using liquid carbon rather than DIY. Seems strange to have deficiency when your light is at this level.


Well, what your saying makes sense but I found that I kept getting really bad bba and poor growth. I've lost a lot of plant so I tried excel for a while. It's too expensive along with the prime and food.
I thought the diy method would be easier, one less thing to dose, cheaper and supposedly better for the plants.


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## Jose (11 Mar 2015)

If you have all nutrients in your EI solution/s including magnessium, then Id bet its a co2 thingy.

If you cant afford/or dont like for whichever reason pressurized co2 then I recommend going low tech(no CO2). You can even keep the lights as they are now. CO2 is trickier than anything.

Another option is to lower light even more (say just one t8) and this way the CO2 demand will be lowered. You can still keep the diy co2 in this case.


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## BexM (11 Mar 2015)

ian_m said:


> Your EI dosing is correct, you don't need a "good substrate" (what ever that is) as most aquatic plants can take nutrients from the water column (else how would people get such wonderful tanks with sand ??) and 55UK gallons -> 66US gallons -> 1.3W/US gallon, so light not excessively high.
> 
> The following facts all point to one cause:-
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply. I don't have a drop checker and I have relied so far on ph/kh tests (not very accurate I know)
I know that gas cylinders are safe, as I said I have done welding and brazing and have used them often. However the thought of having to put a lock on the door to stop my toddler from getting in there and messing with it fills me with anxiety. Plus I don't have that kind ofcash at the moment.

I would much rather lower the light and reduce the need for co2 if that's the problem.


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## Jose (11 Mar 2015)

BexM said:


> I would much rather lower the light and reduce the need for co2 if that's the problem.



You got to the point. You could also use a siesta to let your co2 levels creep back.
you can reduce surface agitation (so long your fish dont gasp and only during the day (photoperiod)


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## BexM (11 Mar 2015)

Ok. I'm going to remove the reflectors from the lights and try upping my dosing first to see if that helps.

This hobby really frustrates me sometimes. It's supposed to be relaxing!


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## EnderUK (11 Mar 2015)

Excel is expensive liquid carbon isn't.  £15 should get you a litre 4ml a day for your tank bottle should last 8 months


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## BexM (11 Mar 2015)

EnderUK said:


> Excel is expensive liquid carbon isn't.  £15 should get you a litre 4ml a day for your tank bottle should last 8 months


Thanks. I might give that a go if all else fails.


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## BexM (11 Mar 2015)

I could remove a bulb I suppose.


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## Jose (11 Mar 2015)

BexM said:


> This hobby really frustrates me sometimes. It's supposed to be relaxing!



Low techs are really relaxing and barely any care from your side needed. But if you go for the gas, then its all different. But the sensation youll experiment with it is also not comparable to anything else.

Most people think that a little bit of co2 here and there is better than nothing. Well it turns out it normally istnt, because plants need time to adapt and an stable ecosystem. So, no CO2 (artificial) at all is the way to go IMHO many times. I dont like middle grounds with regards to CO2. I dont like diy co2 or excel.


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## BexM (11 Mar 2015)

I just can't seem to get the balance right 

Without the co2 I got bba, I read that that was due to fluctuating co2 levels when changing water. I tried less water changes, lots of smaller, water changes, Dirt. I really want to keep the tank stable but stuff keeps going wrong, I'm always reacting to things and messing it up.


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## ian_m (11 Mar 2015)

BexM said:


> try upping my dosing first to see if that helps.


Dose of what ? If dosing EI you will be many many times over the ferts requirements of the plants, especially as your CO2 is clearly the issue.

Liquid carbon is your non scary way forward, if you want to persist with current light level (and plants).

Bargain here, 5ml per 250litre per 24 hours. 1litre will last you 200 days. Done.
http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/neutro-co2-medium-p-6377.html

Preferably dose using a syringe as overdosing is not recommended. Some people dilute say 3:1 with distilled water and daily dose with a more manageable 20ml per day, from measuring bottle, as this much much quicker to do each day than messing around with a tiny syringe.

Can also be used for killing algae.


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## BexM (11 Mar 2015)

Thanks  you're right. I might just stick to lowering the light. I'm fed up with the messing around . Would be nice just to do a low tech and just dose once every couple of weeks.
I do think some people are missing the point though. The floating plants are not limited by co2 and they are showing symptoms of having a deficiency so that would imply that there is an imbalance. However I'm assuming (I'm probably wrong) if I lower the lights and slow everything down then it wont be such a problem.


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## ian_m (11 Mar 2015)

My mate went through the painful process of accidentally moving to a high tech tank when he changed his many years old and incorrect size T8 fluorescent tube to full tank width T5 tube. Algae algae and more algae he suffered.

In the end lowering the light level (putting strips of insulation tape on tank cover) and reducing the light on time to less than his T8 12hours, and dosing when ever (1/4 dose EI ferts and liquid carbon when feeding fish when ever he remembers) and water changes once a month if he can remember, bought algae under control and plants slowly growing algae free.


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## Jose (11 Mar 2015)

BexM said:


> Thanks  you're right. I might just stick to lowering the light. I'm fed up with the messing around . Would be nice just to do a low tech and just dose once every couple of weeks.
> I do think some people are missing the point though. The floating plants are not limited by co2 and they are showing symptoms of having a deficiency so that would imply that there is an imbalance. However I'm assuming (I'm probably wrong) if I lower the lights and slow everything down then it wont be such a problem.



It could be something else of course but we are missing so much info (like your dosing), that we cant really say anything for sure.
How do you dose? Where did you get the ferts from (a link would help).....etc. 

If you fix it by upping the ferts then please let us all know. Because as far as EI and hard water is concerned there is still a lot to prove.


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## BexM (11 Mar 2015)

Well the reflectors are off, diy still running and I've added some more potassium nitrate to my macro mix.

I'm very close to jacking it in and getting some plastic plants and florescent gravel


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## BexM (11 Mar 2015)

http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/fertilisers/dry-chemicals/starter-kits/ei-starter-kit.html

This is the kit, it tells you the schedule and amounts and makes it nice and simple.


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## Jose (11 Mar 2015)

Then there shouldnt be any shortage of any nutrients really. But you might have done too many water changes lately? If not then I doubt  its nutrients. I you really want to know youd need to leave everything else the same and just dose more.
How long have you been dosing EI for on this tank?


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## BexM (11 Mar 2015)

Jose said:


> Then there shouldnt be any shortage of any nutrients really. But you might have done too many water changes lately? If not then I doubt  its nutrients. I you really want to know youd need to leave everything else the same and just dose more.
> How long have you been dosing EI for on this tank?


Nope following the schedule to the letter, one 50% waterchange every sunday. I actually like that part.

About three months.


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## Jose (11 Mar 2015)

BexM said:


> Nope following the schedule to the letter, one 50% waterchange every sunday. I actually like that part.
> About three months



Mmmm. Quite interesting. Are you sure the floating plants have a defficiency? It might be how they are under bright light.


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## BexM (11 Mar 2015)

Overcast dull daylight.


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## Jose (11 Mar 2015)

That could very well be burns from the lamp couldnt it?


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## dw1305 (11 Mar 2015)

Hi all, 
The new leaves on the Water Lettuce (_Pistia stratiotes_) look fine. It naturally has a pale green leaf (because of the hairs diffusing the light). That was one reason why I preferred Amazon Frogbit (_Limnobium laevigatum_) for the <"Duckweed Index">.

My suspicion would be that things will sort themselves out on their own. 

Options you could try are:
More nitrogen (N) and potassium (K).
More magnesium (Mg).
Rain-water (won't contain much calcium (Ca))
 an iron chelator for harder water (<"Chelated Fe">).

It definitely could be light damage to the older leaves, or it may-be chlorosis induced by the high calcium:magnesium ratio. Basically the plant would withdraw magnesium from the older leaves and transport it to the new leaves. It can do this because magnesium is mobile within the plant. 

The one thing you can discount (for a floater) is CO2 availability.  

cheers Darrel


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## BexM (11 Mar 2015)

I suppose they could be burns but a lot of the leaves remain some distance from the lamps because of the flow, they get pushed to the front of the tank which has a thick glass brace.

I will try an increase in potassium nitrate first for a few weeks and see how it goes.

Thank you all for the help.


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## BexM (12 Mar 2015)

I was just thinking. If my lighting is now lower, do I still need to be dosing e.I at all? The only reason I tried t5s was I was told on another forum by quite a few people that t8s were not powerful enough my tank. All of these problems came about when I started adding ferts afters I removed the dirt.


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## Jose (12 Mar 2015)

BexM said:


> I was just thinking. If my lighting is now lower, do I still need to be dosing e.I at all? The only reason I tried t5s eas I was told on another forum by quite a few people that t8s were not powerful enough my tank.


Simple answer: Yes.
The true answer is no one can know. Easiest way is to try different ammounts of ferts. Which I dont recommend.


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## BexM (12 Mar 2015)

I really would like to make this tank as low tech as possible without inducing a massive  bba outbreak and ruining all my hard work.


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## Jose (12 Mar 2015)

If you want to go low tech (no co2 not even diy) then you can dose 1/10th or 1/5th of EI.
But too much nutrients wont cause algae. Too little will. Also fluctuating co2 levels will. Organics, low o2 etc etc.

If you just took the reflectors out but kept the diy co2 then this is not low tech. This is probably a middle groung, middle tech. You can probably try and dose half EI or even 1/4 but if you go too low youll get algae.


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## BexM (12 Mar 2015)

Jose said:


> If you want to go low tech (no co2 not even diy) then you can dose 1/10th or 1/5th of EI.
> But too much nutrients wont cause algae. Too little will. Also fluctuating co2 levels will. Organics, low o2 etc etc.
> 
> If you just took the reflectors out but kept the diy co2 then this is not low tech. This is probably a middle groung, middle tech. You can probably try and dose half EI or even 1/4 but if you go too low youll get algae.


Dosing half makes sense. I would like to ditch the diy but it's the only thing I've found to keep the bba under control.


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## Jose (12 Mar 2015)

For the bba thing: You need to do little water changes. When you do them try to let the water to sit for at least a day. Low tech are very easy to keep and you shouldnt run into any problms. 

Ive never had bba in any of my low techs. If you do then it might be too much light. You should also stock low and feed little.


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## BexM (12 Mar 2015)

Jose said:


> For the bba thing: You need to do little water changes. When you do them try to let the water to sit for at least a day. Low tech are very easy to keep and you shouldnt run into any problms.
> 
> Ive never had bba in any of my low techs. If you do then it might be too much light. You should also stock low and feed little.


Ok, let the water stand so it contains less co2? I do have a 5 gallon bucket I could use for that. 

I don't think I'm lightly stocked but I could probably skip a day or two feeding or feed smaller amounts.


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## Jose (12 Mar 2015)

BexM said:


> Ok, let the water stand so it contains less co2? I do have a 5 gallon bucket I could use for that.



Yeap



BexM said:


> I don't think I'm lightly stocked but I could probably skip a day or two feeding or feed smaller amounts.



Thats not very good. Then youll have to keep up with water changes, maybe a 20-30% once a week should be fine, I cant really know.
Also you dont have to add food less frequently but less ammount in total. So the idea is that fish can eat for around 30 seconds or so (check if they all eat). You can feed more frecuently but less. So.. no leftovers etc.
And pack with as many plants as you can from start.


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## BexM (12 Mar 2015)

Ok. Thank you


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## Jose (12 Mar 2015)

No prob


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## PARAGUAY (14 Mar 2015)

Isnt it recommended EI fertiliser used with pressurised CO2 leaning to high energy set ups. DIY CO2 and EI not sure?I would lean towards Tropica Premium or Pro -Fito with DIY CO2. Check Practical Fishkeeping two articles Nathan Hill interview with APFs John Whelan about EI DOSING AND George Farmer article on substrates, the latter is a interesting one as George concludes substrate choice is not that big a deal providing root tablets are in the gravel or sand


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## BexM (24 Mar 2015)

Just thought i would update. I think Darrel may have been right but i really did not fancy messing around too much with the dosing and upgrading co2 to find out.

My lighting is now much lower and i've removed the diy co2, added some more of the plants that are doing well and removed some of the ones that looked too far gone, like the limnophila aromatica, which melted.

I'm just adding a 1/3 of the ei ferts once a week and i'm going to see how it goes with reducing water changes.


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## BexM (6 Apr 2015)

my crypts and valisneria are melting, is this because of the change in light levels and lowered co2? 

will they recover?


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## sciencefiction (7 Apr 2015)

Yes, it's possible because of the change of co2 levels. Also, my valis always melts when it gets overshadowed by my emersed plants. There's is a level below which it doesn't grow. It browns from the tips down and then melts half way down. The bottom part may then stay alive for a while until it gets the "sun" back.



BexM said:


> All of these problems came about when I started adding ferts afters I removed the dirt.



To me it looks the older leaves are yellowing, the new leaves grow well which points to what was already mentioned, potassium, nitrogen, phosphorous or magnesium and rules out iron.  If it's nitrogen, the yellowing will start from the tips, not uniform. Phosphorous is unlikely as fish produce it and this is a low tech. Plus the damage starts from the edges.
Potassium causes necrotic holes so I think Darrel has it spot on here and this is a typical magnesium issue, as visible on your floaters and anubias. Rules out co2 because of the floaters and lack co2 won't cause that sort of thing, especially not on anubias, lol.   Dose more magnesium/Epsom salts(you can get cheaply from any pharmacy. As he says it maybe caused by the ca:mg balance.


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## BexM (8 Apr 2015)

Thanks for the reply sciencefiction. I'm hoping that any imbalances will be non existent  now the tank is low tech and the growth is slow. I suppose i just need to be patient, stay consistent and give the plants time to recover.

I really like the crypt undulata, hopefully they will grow new leaves.


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## BexM (8 Apr 2015)

Thanks for the reply sciencefiction. I'm hoping that any imbalances will be non existent  now the tank is low tech and the growth is slow. I suppose i just need to be patient, stay consistent and give the plants time to recover.

I really like the crypt undulata, hopefully they will grow new leaves.


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## dw1305 (8 Apr 2015)

Hi all,





BexM said:


> I really like the crypt undulata, hopefully they will grow new leaves.


Should do, most of the _wendtii_ group _Cryptocoryne_ spp. are pretty forgiving, and the rhizome will still be intact. I would expect new leaves to grow as it adapts to the change in conditions.

You may need to play around a bit with light levels as bit. I just let the plant mass increase until it maintains itself at the level set by the PAR. One problem with this is the plants at the bottom of the tank may begin to suffer from lack of light, particularly I've found if you have a lot of _Anubias_, _Microsorum_ and _Bolbitis_ in the layer above them. 

In the tank with a very large_ Anubias  _<"http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/wanted-pictures-of-tanks-kh-related.36141/">, I've lost most of the _Cryptocoryne_ from the bottom, now the _Anubias_ fills 7/8 of the tank.

cheers Darrel


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## BexM (8 Apr 2015)

Thanks Darrel

That makes sense, i could always add the reflectors back if lower level plants look like they are struggling. Part of the reason i upped my lighting to t5 was because i was having trouble growing carpet plants like lilaeopsis mauritiana  and i was told the t8s wouldn't penetrate to the substrate (about 18 inches ) i have dwarf sag in there now. It seems ok so far.


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## roadmaster (9 Apr 2015)

ardjuna said:


> I have some experience with the issue of some plants not growing well (or at all) in nutrient-poor substrates. So there is a possibility that some plants may not grow well unless you plant them into some good substrate (although it should help if you use some nutrient sticks). It's definitely wrong to assert that all plants should do well under EI dosing regardless of the substrate used. Try to grow different plants in EI water without any substrate and you'll see what am I speaking about.



To my knowledge,plant's in inert substrates may struggle until such time as organic matter collects within said substrate (ie)fish food's,fish waste.(common in newly established tanks with inert substrates)
Grow sticks or root tabs can help in the mean time.
Also my understanding that majority of plant's don't care where the nutrient's come from so long as they are there.
They are just as capable of taking nutrient's from the water column as they are from enhanced substrates.
If this were not true  for the majority of plant's, then those using inert gravel/sand,and dosing water column only would report as much and on a grand scale and they don't.


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