# Angels???



## MikeG747 (29 Jan 2013)

Hi,

I am thinking of doing a tank re-scape sometime soon and changing all of the livestock around. 

One of the options I am considering is whether I could keep angels.

The tank is 120 x 50 x 50 (cm) and holds around 300 litres. So in theory how many could I stock in the tank. I prefer under-stocking the tank so I tend to be cautious on fish numbers.

Does anyone have experience of keeping angels and know what the best water parameters are for keeping these fish. I have read in several places that they like very soft water. The hardness of my tap water is around 5 GH.

Thanks

Mike


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## jack-rythm (29 Jan 2013)

I can't give u an answer but I know that is a beautiful sized tank for angels, u can have at least a couple of pairs I'm sure, but would be best to get a more clear and trusting answer

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## adamhawk (29 Jan 2013)

I would recommend having around 4 angel fish in the tank of that size, if you would rather understock and make it a nice number. As with water, I wouldn't say they are to fusy at all. I have never tested my water at all, sometimes I clean tank once a week, once every few weeks, who can tell. Never had problems and its the way a friend of mine has done it for around 30 years. So it depends how "right" you wish it to be.


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## jack-rythm (29 Jan 2013)

Do remember that if you adopt this method of doing a water change once every few weeks, this is of course the very reason why tanks adopt problems with algae etc.. I would still recommend at least one water change once a week no matter what your situation. Especially if you have plants etc.  

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## MikeG747 (29 Jan 2013)

adamhawk said:


> I would recommend having around 4 angel fish in the tank of that size, if you would rather understock and make it a nice number. As with water, I wouldn't say they are to fusy at all. I have never tested my water at all, sometimes I clean tank once a week, once every few weeks, who can tell. Never had problems and its the way a friend of mine has done it for around 30 years. So it depends how "right" you wish it to be.


 
I was thinking either 2 or 3 pairs. If I get them nice and young then they have a chance to grow. I am guessing that they will make short work of any shrimps that are in the tank though?
Do Angels ever attempt to jump as the tank is open topped?


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## MikeG747 (29 Jan 2013)

jack-rythm said:


> Do remember that if you adopt this method of doing a water change once every few weeks, this is of course the very reason why tanks adopt problems with algae etc.. I would still recommend at least one water change once a week no matter what your situation. Especially if you have plants etc.
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


 
Jack,

Yup all in favour of about a 40-50% water change weekly, especially as I have lots of plants and do the EI method.

Mike


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## jack-rythm (29 Jan 2013)

Nice one Mate, and yes angels love to tuc in on shrimp!

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## Ravenswing (29 Jan 2013)

We have had many angels in many tanks (300-450l) and every time with same result: one pair terrorizising all the other angels. We used to buy 4-8 youngsters, after couple of months they keep pairing and after that they just cant stand other angels. Some males try to kill each others, really. One maniac pair even teased all other fishes, tetras etc, when having fry, no matter they had 450l tank...It was ALL theirs! Nowadays we have just one mated pair and they behave nicely even with spawn though usually plecos take care of it at first night. These are individuals, as cichlids are, it is possible to have more than one pair in a tank (especially if there is room enough) but my experince has been less succesful. Maybe a stock of just females or just males would work? Iv never heard that angels would like to jump, but maybe when get badly scared?


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## MikeG747 (29 Jan 2013)

Ravenswing said:


> We have had many angels in many tanks (300-450l) and every time with same result: one pair terrorizising all the other angels. We used to buy 4-8 youngsters, after couple of months they keep pairing and after that they just cant stand other angels. Some males try to kill each others, really. One maniac pair even teased all other fishes, tetras etc, when having fry, no matter they had 450l tank...It was ALL theirs! Nowadays we have just one mated pair and they behave nicely even with spawn though usually plecos take care of it at first night. These are individuals, as cichlids are, it is possible to have more than one pair in a tank (especially if there is room enough) but my experince has been less succesful. Maybe a stock of just females or just males would work? Iv never heard that angels would like to jump, but maybe when get badly scared?



Interesting, so male angels behave a bit like monsters when they pair up then. It sounds like you have kept a lot of them then. Is there any issue with water parameters?


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## Ravenswing (30 Jan 2013)

Sometimes pairs/groups can live together in peace but usually problems starts if/when they start spawning and they tend to start it unbelieveble young! The truth is you never know, these have their own personalities but as far as I know, they are more or less agressive always when spawning and especially with fry. The more agressive pair I used to have kept my Congos at last corner living in 20 liter of water and kept the rest 430l for themselves! They had a new fry every two-three weeks, I got tired and sold them away. The other pair, wich we still have in sons 300l community tank, is more peaceful when spawning but as I told, plecos take care of it, thank God. The male was in pretty poor condition after his brothers (who was this very agressive male in Congo-tank) violent behavior and I had to rescue him quickly to another tank not to become killed. They were sold to my son as a mated pair. Blah...Both were males.

When it comes to water parameters, our tap water is poor with very high conductivity (tap 620-650uS, tank 750uS before WC, including a lot of NaCl and NaOH) but there has neverever been any problems with angels. We keep water clean, WC 40-50% weekly so maybe this helps. The (only) pair we nowadays have, is really cute and peaceful with all other fishes in the tank but all they do is pegging for food. My son, who owns the fish, loves them but I personally find them a bit boring since I like more active fish (thats why bows are my favorites!). Couple of years ago we used to have angelyoungsters growing and pairing in three tanks but I found them a bit too stressful because of this continuing agressive spawning behaviour even with one pair in tank. Sometimes, Iv been told, group three works fine, sometimes, if not spawning, they live in peace even in groups, you never know before you have your owns and see how things progress. Having wood and a lot of plants might help pairs not seeing eachothers but this testosterone monster I had, really hunt his poor brother where ever he was or was trying to hide! Even females can fight badly but this kind of behavior we never had, only males fought.

Hope this didnt scared you, buy 6-8 youngsters and see how things go. This is too many adults for 300l you are having but Im pretty sure you have to give away anyway few ones and you will end up 1-2 nice mated pair/s or a nice group of just females/ just males. Just keep eye on them and Im sure you`ll find your way to do. BTW, females can "spawn" together but they tent to be less agressive. These are true "The bold and the beautiful"-fish when it comes to their social life!


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## DrRob (30 Jan 2013)

I too would advise against trying for more than one pair of angels in a tank that size. It'll seem remarkably small when some pair off and there are others around. I've kept, and bred, angels in much smaller spaces before but that was on a more commercial type set up where the tank was really just for breeding. When all is told, they're cichlids and ambush predators and they act like it. As is often with that sort of fish, they do well solo, in a pair, or as a small group of 6 or so.

Personally, I think that they look great in a planted tank, particularly the wild patterns. Water conditions will depend a lot on what you want to get, but the standard tank bred angels you pick up in your LFS are pretty much bomb proof now. If you go for something closer to it's wild roots then you'll be looking towards the softer, more acid end of the spectrum but that'll depend on what you're getting.


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## MikeG747 (30 Jan 2013)

DrRob said:


> I too would advise against trying for more than one pair of angels in a tank that size. It'll seem remarkably small when some pair off and there are others around. I've kept, and bred, angels in much smaller spaces before but that was on a more commercial type set up where the tank was really just for breeding. When all is told, they're cichlids and ambush predators and they act like it. As is often with that sort of fish, they do well solo, in a pair, or as a small group of 6 or so.
> 
> Personally, I think that they look great in a planted tank, particularly the wild patterns. Water conditions will depend a lot on what you want to get, but the standard tank bred angels you pick up in your LFS are pretty much bomb proof now. If you go for something closer to it's wild roots then you'll be looking towards the softer, more acid end of the spectrum but that'll depend on what you're getting.


 
Hi DrRob,

Thanks for the advice. I think I will settle for one or two pairs of hardy (!) angels as my water isn't really soft or acidic. What would you say are suitable fish to keep with one or two pairs of angels?

Mike


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## DrRob (30 Jan 2013)

MikeG747 said:


> Hi DrRob,
> 
> Thanks for the advice. I think I will settle for one or two pairs of hardy (!) angels as my water isn't really soft or acidic. What would you say are suitable fish to keep with one or two pairs of angels?
> 
> Mike


 
Anything that's not going to nip at long, flowing fins and is big enough to not fall foul of a good sized mouth. Generally people have said that neons are too small for them when they're grown as they would be a natural foodstuff for them.


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## dean (30 Jan 2013)

Angels are like most cichlids, either keep a pair of a big group so aggression  is evenly distributed and its harder for males to adopt his own territory... Avoid bards and small fish, neons etc or slow fish like guppies or a fighter.
If you want get some big tetras to school together or rainbows, and dwarf cichlids for the bottom or corydoras cats or of you want something a bit more a group of Pictus cats look brilliant in 6 or more and will happily take any fry


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## MikeG747 (31 Jan 2013)

dean said:


> Angels are like most cichlids, either keep a pair of a big group so aggression is evenly distributed and its harder for males to adopt his own territory... Avoid bards and small fish, neons etc or slow fish like guppies or a fighter.
> If you want get some big tetras to school together or rainbows, and dwarf cichlids for the bottom or corydoras cats or of you want something a bit more a group of Pictus cats look brilliant in 6 or more and will happily take any fry


 
So basically get a pair (or two!) and get some suitably sized fish to accompany them like congo tetra or SAE.


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## dean (31 Jan 2013)

id say the more the merrier


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## DrRob (31 Jan 2013)

Not the SAE ideally. They're not a brilliant mix with flat sided fish.


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## Ed Seeley (31 Jan 2013)

Get 6+ and watch the interactions.  With plenty of cover they may be able to carve out territories and give each other enough room, but even if not it'll be interesting watching them grow and pair up.


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## MikeG747 (3 Feb 2013)

Is it possible to sex angels when they are young?
If so what would be the best ratio of males to females, is it 1:1 or more like 1:2?


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## Ed Seeley (3 Feb 2013)

MikeG747 said:


> Is it possible to sex angels when they are young?
> If so what would be the best ratio of males to females, is it 1:1 or more like 1:2?


 
Not really!  Some very experienced keepers might be able to have a go at venting them but it won't be easy(if it's possible at all) with young fish.  Another reason for buying a good sized group and let them pick their own mate.  You also get a much more stable pair bond in cichlids if you let them select their own mates.


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## DrRob (3 Feb 2013)

MikeG747 said:


> Is it possible to sex angels when they are young?
> If so what would be the best ratio of males to females, is it 1:1 or more like 1:2?


 
Reliably? No, not really. There are ways, but they're probably not practical for your purposes. There is sometimes success with males being larger, but less plump, and having more pronounced foreheads, but to be honest with scalare it's not generally so simple. If you want to breed them you'll need 1:1 for the pair, they don't do harems. I can't honestly say that the females are much more placid or aggressive than the males. I've had nutters from both genders.

If you want a definite answer then the breeding tubes look different (more pointed in the males) and there are hormonal ways of getting these to show (I used to use water from a breeding pair's tank), but as I said, not really practical for you and doesn't work until they reach a certain age.


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## Ravenswing (3 Feb 2013)

Ed Seeley said:


> You also get a much more stable pair bond in cichlids if you let them select their own mates


 
+1


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## MikeG747 (3 Feb 2013)

Ed Seeley said:


> Not really!  Some very experienced keepers might be able to have a go at venting them but it won't be easy(if it's possible at all) with young fish.  Another reason for buying a good sized group and let them pick their own mate.  You also get a much more stable pair bond in cichlids if you let them select their own mates.



Thanks Ed. looks like I am destined to get a group of 6 or so and hope that there is a gender mix. Then hopefully they will form happy couples.


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