# Anyone have fert list to make 2hr aquarist APT Complete please.



## Deano3 (8 Feb 2022)

Hi everyone hope you are well, my ferts are starting to run out and i want to change and make 2hr aquarist apt complete but need some help,  i dont have excell or similar and cant seem to open the forum Calculator so has anyone got the list and amounts to mlae a bottle of these ferts up ? 

I currently use the 500ml bottles from EI kit but any help would be great  just be easier if someone already as it writen down in order so i can knock some bottles up.

Thanks dean


----------



## MichaelJ (9 Feb 2022)

Deano3 said:


> Hi everyone hope you are well, my ferts are starting to run out and i want to change and make 2hr aquarist apt complete but need some help,  i dont have excell or similar and cant seem to open the forum Calculator so has anyone got the list and amounts to mlae a bottle of these ferts up ?
> 
> I currently use the 500ml bottles from EI kit but any help would be great  just be easier if someone already as it writen down in order so i can knock some bottles up.
> 
> Thanks dean


Hi @Deano3 When I visit their website for the APT Complete  I don't really see a guaranteed analysis?  I would think @Zeus. and @Hanuman  got the APT Complete "clone" covered.

Cheers,
Michael


----------



## Hanuman (9 Feb 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> When I visit their website for the APT Complete  I don't really see a guaranteed analysis


Macros are specified but not Micros. That part is purposefully kept hidden from the public. That's why in the calculator we use Fe as a target and user can chose which ever traces he desires.


----------



## Zeus. (9 Feb 2022)

Depending what salts you have-







If you plan to use any other salts ask


----------



## Deano3 (9 Feb 2022)

Zeus. said:


> Depending what salts you have-
> View attachment 182339
> View attachment 182340
> If you plan to use any other salts ask


Thanks for that @Zeus.  Thanks for getting that for me however I still need a bit help as useless at this 😅.  I have looked at them and that's based on 100l tank so obviously I will just double that for my tank as 180l

The current ferts I use and the only dry powders i have are 
asorbic acid,potassium sorbate, trace elements, kno3 ,kh2po4, k2so4, mgso4, and that is what I currently use.

Will kno3 be OK as potassium nitrate and kh2po4 be ok as monopotassium phosphate and what about potassium chloride etc is this mix only 4 dry powders and only 4 times a week ? Is this the ingredients and amounts below ? Apart from the absorbic acid and sorbate.

Sorry for all questions just new to this as used same one for so long 
Thanks again appreciate your time on this.
Dean


----------



## Aqua sobriquet (9 Feb 2022)

Is this of any help?


			James' Planted Tank - All In One Solution


----------



## Zeus. (9 Feb 2022)

Deano3 said:


> Thanks for that @Zeus.  Thanks for getting that for me however I still need a bit help as useless at this 😅.  I have looked at them and that's based on 100l tank so obviously I will just double that for my tank as 180l
> 
> The current ferts I use and the only dry powders i have are
> asorbic acid,potassium sorbate, trace elements, kno3 ,kh2po4, k2so4, mgso4, and that is what I currently use.
> ...


Done you another mix for your Macro salts you have - you will also need some trace salts - I used APFUK trace salts
Made it easy so just 10ml four times a week for 180litres - so its a clone of the same yields as APT3


----------



## Hanuman (9 Feb 2022)

Zeus. said:


> Done you another mix for your Macro salts you have


Where is it? 😅


----------



## Hanuman (9 Feb 2022)

Deano3 said:


> The current ferts I use and the only dry powders i have are
> asorbic acid,potassium sorbate, trace elements, kno3 ,kh2po4, k2so4, mgso4, and that is what I currently use.


What traces do you have?


----------



## Hanuman (10 Feb 2022)

The problem using Potassium Sulphate instead of Potassium Chloride is that solubility is exceeded under current dosing regime. I would be you I would do a daily dosing to overcome that issue.


----------



## Zeus. (10 Feb 2022)

Hanuman said:


> Where is it? 😅


even had it in clipboard ready to post .
Seeing it was already done I still post it as Hanni has done a daily regime and I had done it for 4 times a week


----------



## Hanuman (10 Feb 2022)

I suggested the daily dosing as with the 4x week regime you are getting close to solubility max with Potassium Sulphate, but I guess it's still fine. Personally I never liked the alternate dosing regime. I used to do that myself but many times forgot if I had fertilized or not. Now I got an auto-doser so no worries on that side anymore but still think it's better to dose everyday.


----------



## Zeus. (10 Feb 2022)

Hanuman said:


> I suggested the daily dosing as with the 4x week regime you are getting close to solubility max with Potassium Sulphate, but I guess it's still fine. Personally I never liked the alternate dosing regime. I used to do that myself but many times forgot if I had fertilized or not. Now I got an auto-doser so no worries on that side anymore but still think it's better to dose everyday.


I think if going manual dosing daily is better as well. 

If gong for 4x weekly double the container volume and double the dose would be better also - for reasons @Hanuman pointed out, anything above 75% solubility is best avoided IMO.


----------



## Deano3 (10 Feb 2022)

Hanuman said:


> What traces do you have?





Hanuman said:


> What traces do you have?


Currently just Aquarium plant food traxe elements


----------



## Deano3 (10 Feb 2022)

Thanks for the  new list  but forgive my stupidity but is kh2po4 ok as monopotassium phosphate?

Also is the list i have below all i need to add and in that order it is listed into boiled water and shake inbeetween,  and is it the container amount i add yes ?

Also can i add the trace amount to this same mix so a AIO as its eSier to dose daily from a AIO and will be purchasing a auto doser at some point, and when you recomend daily should i still add 10ml daily or a little less. The calculator is a amazing tool you have made but when you talk about solubility etc i am lost 😅 as dont have the faintest idea. 

Thanks dean


----------



## arcturus (10 Feb 2022)

Deano3 said:


> Thanks for the  new list  but forgive my stupidity but is kh2po4 ok as monopotassium phosphate?


Yes. KH2PO4 is the correct phosphate (PO4) salt. It will also add a small amount of Potassium (K). This is already accounted for in the calculations above.



Deano3 said:


> Also is the list i have below all i need to add and in that order it is listed into boiled water and shake inbeetween,  and is it the container amount i add yes ?


The easiest is to dissolve them separately and then mix the solutions together. Otherwise the dissolution will get progressively more difficult. You do not want to have a very concentrated solution because of this.

You can also keep the four solutions separate, each in their own container, to avoid precipitation. This simplifies dissolving the salts and avoiding chemical interactions between the salts, but makes dosing more complicated.

But wait for the comments from the experts on this subject!



Deano3 said:


> Also can i add the trace amount to this same mix so a AIO as its eSier to dose daily from a AIO and will be purchasing a auto doser at some point, and when you recomend daily should i still add 10ml daily or a little less. The calculator is a amazing tool you have made but when you talk about solubility etc i am lost 😅 as dont have the faintest idea.


I would keep the macro solution and micro/traces solution separate, and dose them on alternate days (this is the classical EI regime), or at least a few hours apart. You can also dose micro daily (a good time is when turning on the lights). After you decide the fertilization frequency it is only a matter of adjusting the dosage.


----------



## Zeus. (10 Feb 2022)

Deano3 said:


> Also can i add the trace amount to this same mix so a AIO



Seeing you have cloned an AIO, it should be fine to keep as an AIO - just make sure you add the ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate first. Any precipitate should be easy to resolve by just adding double the water then dose double the dose. But dosing Macros and Micro is another work around as well


----------



## Deano3 (10 Feb 2022)

Zeus. said:


> Seeing you have cloned an AIO, it should be fine to keep as an AIO - just make sure you add the ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate first. Any precipitate should be easy to resolve by just adding double the water then dose double the dose. But dosing Macros and Micro is another work around as well


Excellent i forgot to add the picture below as you did above is it just them i add and the amounts listed in the add to container ? I will get mad up tomorrow. 

thanks again hopefully works well.

dean


----------



## Zeus. (10 Feb 2022)

Zeus. said:


> Any precipitate should be easy to resolve by just adding double the water then dose double the dose


Add some more ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate first before doubling the water 'if' taking this route to keep the pH low ( same mass as you added to first mix)


----------



## Hanuman (11 Feb 2022)

Deano3 said:


> is kh2po4 ok as monopotassium phosphate?


KH2PO4 *i**s* monopotassium phosphate


Deano3 said:


> Also is the list i have below all i need to add and in that order it is listed into boiled water and shake in between, and is it the container amount i add yes ?


As it is mentioned in the calculator the order is:
1 - Acids first ALWAYS: (Ascorbic acid) and then Potassium sorbate
2 - Macros (their order doesn't matter)
3 - Traces


Deano3 said:


> Also can i add the trace amount to this same mix so a AIO as its eSier to dose daily from a AIO


Yes, If you are going for AOI I personally would suggest a daily dosing to reduce concentration levels and prevent possible interactions. There is a reason why I suggested a daily dosing specially for people who are new to this.


Deano3 said:


> should i still add 10ml daily or a little less


Not sure why it would need to be a little less. It's 10ml as seen on the screenshot


Deano3 said:


> when you talk about solubility etc i am lost 😅 as dont have the faintest idea.


Solubility is the ability a of compound to dissolve in a liquid. All compounds have different solubility levels. For example Potassium Sulphate has a solubility at 20 °C of 111 grams per liter of water while Calcium Sulphate only has a solubility of 2.4 grams per liter of water. Above those amounts the compounds will not dissolve anymore and they will stay in suspension. Solubility is dependent on multiple factors such as the receiving liquid, the temperature, the pressure.


Deano3 said:


> Excellent i forgot to add the picture below as you did above is it just them i add and the amounts listed in the add to container ?


That's for a 4x/week dosing. If you want a daily regime look at the screenshot I posted, which after reading what you posted, seems to be what you want.

@arcturus  suggested to separate Macros and Micros which is a wise idea. You simply prepare two separate containers of 500ml each. You just need to chose which regime you want (4x or daily) and prepare the solution accordingly

⚠️Use RO/DI or distilled water. Don't go using tap water!!



arcturus said:


> You can also keep the four solutions separate, each in their own container, to avoid precipitation.


3 max unless you want to separate water from all salts too 😅. In this case though, I think 2 would be max, specially because he is using a CSM+B trace mix so Fe and traces can't be segregated.


----------



## Courtneybst (11 Feb 2022)

Hanuman said:


> ⚠️Use RO/DI or distilled water. Don't go using tap water!!


Hey Hanuman, I'm not suggesting that you're wrong but I'm curious as to why RO/DI or distilled water is necessary? Only because I've been using tap water for years seemingly without any issues. Happy to be enlightened!


----------



## Hanuman (11 Feb 2022)

You are most certainly one of the lucky people who have water that is very soft and probably deprived of many minerals, OR you have been producing fertilizers that are so lean to the point where no interaction occurs.

When you produce a fertilizer, you want to have the purest water possible (you can also use rain water if you live in a rural area where no known air contaminants are present) to prevent any interactions that could happen between what is in the water and what you are adding. You don't know for a fact what is in the tap water you are using. Tomorrow it could be different. Also, if you are preparing a fertilizer with specific ppm values, using tap water will basically screw that. You could very well be doubling or tripling or more your nitrate, K or P or whatever element you are adding.

That is why using the purest water possible is advisable.


----------



## dw1305 (11 Feb 2022)

Hi all, 


Courtneybst said:


> but I'm curious as to why RO/DI or distilled water is necessary? Only because I've been using tap water for years seemingly without any issues. Happy to be enlightened!


It is really only because it is likely to contain ions (Ca++, HCO3-, PO4--- etc) that can form <"insoluble compounds"> in your concentrated fertiliser mix.


Hanuman said:


> Also, if you are preparing a fertilizer with specific ppm values, using tap water will basically screw that. You could very well be doubling or tripling or more your nitrate, K or P or whatever element you are adding.


This is also an issue, although in most cases the dilution factor will make this less relevant.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Deano3 (11 Feb 2022)

Thanks so much  @Hanuman  and @Zeus  and @dw1305  most appreciated.

I will be doing daily dosing to keep simple and hopefully adding all dry powders one at a time and shaking in between as I always have will be fine.

You are all very knowledgeable at this and a huge help to me, the reason I asked if 10ml was due to that being every 4 days however I will dose 10ml daily and see how get on just wasnt sure.

Also I have always used cooled boiled tap water for my ferts so would you strongly advise againt that ? I don't have rodi but could buy bottled water.

I will be making this up when finish work next week 😁

Dean


----------



## dw1305 (11 Feb 2022)

Hi all,


Deano3 said:


> Also I have always used cooled boiled tap water for my ferts so would you strongly advise againt that


No, boiled should be OK, the dKH, the calcium (Ca) and bicarbonate (HCO3-), will precipitate out  limestone (CaCO3) "scale" as the water approaches boiling and loses all it dissolved gases.  You need to pour the water out of the kettle carefully when it has just boiled or the "scale" will dissolve and the Ca++ and HCO3- ions will go back into solution as the water cools and CO2 diffuses back in.

cheers Darrel


----------



## john779 (13 Feb 2022)

May i know what should be PH of the final solution after mixing NPK + MICRO TRACE to prevent precipitation and mold


----------



## Hanuman (13 Feb 2022)

Pretty much irrelevant if you added the ascorbic acid as per suggested. 0.5gr / 500ml.
After adding all the salts PH should hovers around PH3 or PH4.


----------



## Zeus. (13 Feb 2022)

john779 said:


> May i know what should be PH of the final solution after mixing NPK + MICRO TRACE to prevent precipitation and mold


Just add the  ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate to the water *FIRST* before any other salts


----------



## john779 (13 Feb 2022)

@Zeus. @Hanuman   Actually recently i tried all in one fertz
Container size: 500ml
Dose size: 10ml for 100Litre

Chemicals used:
(NPK)
KNO3
K2SO4
KH2PO4

(Micro).
DTPA Fe 11%
EDTA Mg
EDTA Mn
EDTA Cu
EDTA Zi
H3BO3 ( B )
Na₂MoO₄ (Mo)

Procedure
500ml deionised water added *A**sorbic Acid* *0.5g and **Potassium sorbate 0.2g
AFTER ADDING THE ABOVE CHEMICALS PH WAS AROUND 2.75TO 3 PH*

Then added the KNO3 ,KH2PO4, K2SO4
followed with other micro nutrients listed above but when i added EDTA MG to reach the desired PPM given below the PH started to increased  around 5.8-6 plus and precipitated in few minutes

*Targeted ppm as follows
NPK:*
N:1.8 NO3
P: 0.7 PO4
K: 4 ppm
*MICRO:*
Mg0.39
Fe0.050
Mn0.039
B0.004
Cu0.003
Mo0.002
Zn0.002

*my question are:*
1.is there is different method  to follow when using EDTA MG 
2. its just i cant use EDTA MG to reach the above target
3. Should the Amount of asorbic , pottasium sorbate should be increased or some other acids should be used when doing this.
4.or is there some thing to do with the macro chemicals i used (like it has to be replaced with other NPK source)


----------



## Zeus. (13 Feb 2022)

john779 said:


> Procedure
> 500ml deionised water added *A**sorbic Acid* *0.5g and **Potassium sorbate 0.2g
> AFTER ADDING THE ABOVE CHEMICALS PH WAS AROUND 2.75TO 3 PH*
> 
> ...


1. Why are you using Mg EDTA when MgSO4:7H2O is enough and cheaper
2. You should add the  Asorbic Acid 0.5g and Potassium sorbate 0.2g then the traces -
Mixing order recommendation (suggested by X3NiTH):
① Zinc compound first as it can precipitate if the water is not properly acidified (re-acidifying the water results in Zinc oxidizing and becoming plant unavailable) ② Manganese next as it is generally the next heaviest mass of compound to add ③ then Boric Acid ④ then Copper ⑤ then Sodium Molybdate ⑥ then Nickel ⑦ then Cobalt ⑧ Last Iron because it will change the colour of the mixture and masks any potential precipitate formation from other compounds.
then add the Macros

@X3NiTH / @dw1305 may have a better insight as their chemistry is better and plants requirements are than mine


----------



## Happi (13 Feb 2022)

most likely APT macro used Urea or NH4, can someone test for NO3 and NH4 by adding some of it in the container with distilled water?

it wont be much of a secret anymore at that point.


----------



## Happi (13 Feb 2022)

john779 said:


> @Zeus. @Hanuman   Actually recently i tried all in one fertz
> Container size: 500ml
> Dose size: 10ml for 100Litre
> 
> ...


good to see you trying EDTA Mg John, you can also add Ca EDTA to the micro if you wished, but 0.39 ppm Mg EDTA will be adding quite good amount of EDTA as a results, honestly there is no need to Chelate the Mg.

instead of Asrobic acid, have you tried using the Vinegar and see if you notice any issue? my major concern is Copper and asrobic acid reacting in the solution. which looks like a brown/red precipitation.


----------



## john779 (13 Feb 2022)

Zeus. said:


> 1. Why are you using Mg EDTA when MgSO4:7H2O is enough and cheaper
> 2. You should add the  Asorbic Acid 0.5g and Potassium sorbate 0.2g then the traces -
> Mixing order recommendation (suggested by X3NiTH):
> ① Zinc compound first as it can precipitate if the water is not properly acidified (re-acidifying the water results in Zinc oxidizing and becoming plant unavailable) ② Manganese next as it is generally the next heaviest mass of compound to add ③ then Boric Acid ④ then Copper ⑤ then Sodium Molybdate ⑥ then Nickel ⑦ then Cobalt ⑧ Last Iron because it will change the colour of the mixture and masks any potential precipitate formation from other compounds.
> ...


So in the order list i dont see magnesium is it added along with the macro part mixed after the micro& trace are mixed ? I mean along with other macros KNO3 ,KH2PO4, K2SO4. ??


----------



## Happi (13 Feb 2022)

far as APT Micro goes, I believe it is based on the Custom Micro Thread and from others who were working with making their own micros, this is the Inside Information.

also APT likely  used Non chelated Micros except Fe, which is Fe DTPA. possibly added some  Fe Gluconate to it as well.

APT or any other fertilizer is not a magic fertilizer, when you can make your own at home.


----------



## Hanuman (14 Feb 2022)

john779 said:


> So in the order list i dont see magnesium is it added along with the macro part mixed after the micro& trace are mixed ? I mean along with other macros KNO3 ,KH2PO4, K2SO4. ??


1. Water
2. Asorbic Acid and Potassium sorbate
3. Macros (including Mg - Mg is not considered a trace for our purposes). If you notice it is not on the trace calculator
4. Traces as per the order in the calculator

As per advised by Zeus I would also use MgSO4.7H2O or MgSO4. or possibly MgCl2.6H2O (although more expensive).

Try again with the above and let us know how it goes.

I will try preparing an AIO myself this weekend as I have been wanting to do this for a long time for testing purposes. I will be using MgSO4.7H2O and non-chelated traces.


----------



## Hanuman (14 Feb 2022)

Happi said:


> far as APT Micro goes, I believe it is based on the Custom Micro Thread and from others who were working with making their own micros, this is the Inside Information.


No, APT micros on the calculator are based on Fe target. So those micros will varie depending which commercial trace product you use to prepare the solution. That's the best we can do considering trace breakdown and % is not divulged to the public. For commercial products that provide such breakdown and % one can use the DIYTraceCalculator to replicate the trace side of the fertilizer.



Happi said:


> also APT likely used Non chelated Micros except Fe, which is Fe DTPA. possibly added some Fe Gluconate to it as well.


Possible, but its owner, which I have been in contact with, does not want to divulge that information so we can all assume.


----------



## john779 (14 Feb 2022)

@X3NiTH   in one of your other replied to a post CLICK-HERE-FOR-REFERENCE
U have asked to add phosphate and check the ph and if the ph is increased above 4  u have asked to add more acid to maintain ph below 4 ? So in your view the final solutions ph should be preferable below 4 ph


----------



## john779 (14 Feb 2022)

Hanuman said:


> 1. Water
> 2. Asorbic Acid and Potassium sorbate
> 3. Macros (including Mg - Mg is not considered a trace for our purposes). If you notice it is not on the trace calculator
> 4. Traces as per the order in the calculator
> ...


Tested with the following

one fertz
Container size: 500ml
Dose size: 10ml for 100Litre

Chemicals used:
(NPK)
KNO3
K2SO4
KH2PO4

(Micro).
DTPA Fe 11%
MGSO4.7h2o
EDTA Mn
EDTA Cu
EDTA Zi
H3BO3 ( B )
Na₂MoO₄ (Mo)

Procedure
500ml deionised water added Asorbic Acid 0.5g and Potassium sorbate 0.2g

Then added the KNO3 ,KH2PO4, K2SO4 ,MGSO4. Followed with other micro nutrients listed above  but then i got a clear solution but when its kept untouched a hour or more i see some kinda of presipitat or dk how to describe it but very low in amount but it docent settle at the bottom looks like its stays floated and very hard to notice i had to look carefully to see that and  when i shake it i think it disappears  i see a clear solution but it happens again when un touched

Targeted ppm as follows
NPK:
N:1.8 NO3
P: 1.5 PO4
K: 4 ppm
MICRO:
Mg0.39
Fe0.050
Mn0.039
B0.004
Cu0.003
Mo0.002
Zn0.002


----------



## X3NiTH (14 Feb 2022)

The precipitation problem with MgEDTA is that it’s only stable between pH6-10 so adding it into a solution at pH2.7-3 will cause the complex to dissociate into free EDTA and Mg, both may precipitate, EDTA as EDTA and Mg as anything it can find to complex with other than EDTA in order to equilibriate any charge imbalance in the mixture.






If making an all in one that has to be acidified to a low pH to keep Iron available then use unchelated Macro salts, don’t use any more EDTA than you have to.


----------



## X3NiTH (14 Feb 2022)

john779 said:


> but it doesn’t settle at the bottom looks like its stays floated



Zinc Hydroxide does this, it doesn’t form a sedimenting precipitate unless it’s oxidised (the oxide is a black precipitate) it stays in suspension looking a bit like paper pulp in the water. I am unsure in this instance what precipitation product you may have as long as the water was acidified before the zinc went in and then stayed relatively low then it shouldn’t precipitate.

0.25g of Ascorbic acid is all you need to get a pH low enough around pH3.5 for the traces in 500ml of water. Try a batch with a lower amount of Ascorbic and see if there is any difference.


----------



## john779 (14 Feb 2022)

X3NiTH said:


> Zinc Hydroxide does this, it doesn’t form a sedimenting precipitate unless it’s oxidised (the oxide is a black precipitate) it stays in suspension looking a bit like paper pulp in the water. I am unsure in this instance what precipitation product you may have as long as the water was acidified before the zinc went in and then stayed relatively low then it shouldn’t precipitate.
> 
> 0.25g of Ascorbic acid is all you need to get a pH low enough around pH3.5 for the traces in 500ml of water. Try a batch with a lower amount of Ascorbic and see if there is any difference.


@X3NiTH 
1. Should it be 3.5 ph when i start adding trace and then followed with macro or it should around 3.5ph after adding micro then need to add trace.
2. Is it ok go even lower like 2-2.5ph ? When starting to add micro then followed with macro or vise versa


----------



## X3NiTH (14 Feb 2022)

Acidify the receiving water beforehand. Usually add the Micro salts first then Macro second. 

In your case it might be worth adding the Macro salts first to non acidified water then checking the pH of your Macro combination, add the Ascorbic at 0.25g per 500ml and check the pH again, if it’s around pH4 then it should be okay to add the Micro salts, if it’s above pH5 then add another 0.25g of Ascorbic acid.

There’s not really much point in targeting a lower pH, a pH of 3.5 should be perfectly OK to solubilise non chelated micronutrients however the behaviour with EDTA chelated micro elements may be slightly different (you would need to find the Stability Constants for the other chelated metals).


----------



## X3NiTH (14 Feb 2022)

Here’s FeDTPA to be complete.




Mn EDTA is unstable below pH3 so there’s your reason not to go lower on the mixtures pH.


----------



## Happi (15 Feb 2022)

Mg EDTA

PH dropped to 1.9 using HCL, PH went up to 5.5 after adding 5 gram Mg EDTA, solution remained clear.

Added more HCL and dropped the PH to 3.7, the solution started to form clumps and prectipated.

I usually maintain PH of 5-6 for my micro solution. I will need to repeat the above test using other EDTA based chemicals as well to see how they react to the PH.


----------



## Happi (15 Feb 2022)

Started with ph 0.6 and added 5 gram Mg EDTA, at first it appear as it is fully dissolved but few seconds later the prectipation started to form.


----------



## Happi (15 Feb 2022)

@X3NiTH this was something I never thought about especially with the Mg EDTA, I never saw any issue because I usually maintain ph of 5-6 for my micro stock solution. Looks like same issue would occur with Ca EDTA unless it was kept in the ph of 5 or so.

I wonder what is happening to those people who are dropping their solution ph to low amount lower than 5 while using CSM, Miller, TNC etc. Because the Mg in those products are also Chelated by EDTA. I believe they are prectipating and should see the same problem.

I must admit great job on bringing this up, no one really look into these factors.

Ca EDTA
PH 5-10

Mg EDTA
PH 6-10

Fe EDTA
PH 1.5-6.5

Fe DTPA
PH 1.5-7.5

Fe EDDHA
PH 3.5-10

Mn EDTA
PH 3-10

Cu EDTA
PH 1.5-10

Zn EDTA
PH 2-10

it would appear that PH of 6 would be much better overall PH for the stock solution  who want to use EDTA alone or with DTPA/EDDHA Combination


----------



## Hanuman (15 Feb 2022)

I think I will add a warning in the calculator for chelated traces and PH.


----------



## john779 (15 Feb 2022)

Happi said:


> I must admit great job on bringing this up, no one really look into these factors.


Thank you and i have also noticed some thing else its on testing will update in few days.

@Hanuman  i think not all brands of edta supplier guarente the same ph stability, please check that also.


----------



## Hanuman (15 Feb 2022)

john779 said:


> @Hanuman i think not all brands of edta supplier guarente the same ph stability, please check that also.


We cannot take into account the PH of all manufacturers. The idea is to simply put a general warning.


----------



## Hanuman (16 Feb 2022)

Happi said:


> who want to use EDTA alone or with DTPA/EDDHA Combination


Honestly I am not sure why people would want to use individual chelated traces. They are more expensive and don't provide any additional benefit in my opinion for our purpose. The exception would be those using CSM+B or mixed traces, since obviously they have no choice. In any case the choice is there.


----------



## Happi (16 Feb 2022)

Hanuman said:


> Honestly I am not sure why people would want to use individual chelated traces. They are more expensive and don't provide any additional benefit in my opinion for our purpose. The exception would be those using CSM+B or mixed traces, since obviously they have no choice. In any case the choice is there.


Sorry I meant to say EDTA chelated fertilizer such as Fe EDTA, Mn EDTA, Zn EDTA or combined with Fe DTPA, Fe EDDHA etc in combination. Maintaining ph of the solution at 6 would be better in such case.

Most people now days are getting into making their own micros so they do need to buy individual traces to accomplish this.


----------



## Hanuman (16 Feb 2022)

Yes that's what I understood. I think it's better and cheaper to use non-cheletad traces when possible. The exception being Fe and/or if as I said above one uses a mixed trace product. Traces can be used raw.
As for the PH 6 I think it would be better to keep the PH at around 4-5 unless one decides to use chelated Mg.
As a side note, Mg and Ca are not considered traces and do not appear in the trace DIYTraceCalculator which makes me wonder how was John able to properly calculate the Mg EDTA he used in his recipe.


----------



## Happi (16 Feb 2022)

Hanuman said:


> Yes that's what I understood. I think it's better and cheaper to use non-cheletad traces when possible. The exception being Fe and/or if as I said above one uses a mixed trace product. Traces can be used raw.
> As for the PH 6 I think it would be better to keep the PH at around 4-5 unless one decides to us chelated Mg.
> As a side note, Mg and Ca are not considered traces and do not appear in the trace DIYTraceCalculator which makes me wonder how was John able to properly calculate the Mg EDTA he used in his recipe.


That's what we were talking about, if you skip the Mg EDTA from the recipe, you can keep the ph as low as 3 ph for the solution. 

Not sure which method John used to calculate for Mg EDTA, but I can check with my method to see if it was accurately done.


----------



## john779 (16 Feb 2022)

what i suggest is csm+b is  good and better for chelated coz the ratio is nice and there is no much advantage in using seprate salts than just making the work double and in case of MG it docent need to be in edta form i guess plus the csm+b has little mg in edta form and u can just use mgso4 to top up for your desired level...😀


----------



## Deano3 (26 Feb 2022)

sorry for late reply just wanted to let you know i managed to get a bottle of ferts made up i ended u adding as below

0.5g ascorbic acid
0.2g potassium sorbate
15.85g potassium nitrate
5.42g potassium phosphate
28.60g potassium sulphate
21.90g magnesium sulphate 
3.29g trace elements

the list was based on daily dosing by @Hanuman and greatly appreciated , i seemed to be adding a ot less dry powders comparred to what i used to add so will most likely save me money aswel, the list below is what i used to dose

0.2g ascorbic acid
0.2g potassium sorbate
15g potassium nitrate
9g potassium phosphate
40g potassium sulphate
120g magnesium sulphate 
6g trace elements

is the current dose and the APT complete classed as a much more lean dosing regime to get the best colours out of plants etc ?
been doing 10ml daily.

thanks again to everyone involoved 
Dean


----------



## Happi (27 Feb 2022)

@Deano3

10ml daily in how many gallon or liters? and how many ml is your fertilizer solution?


----------



## Deano3 (27 Feb 2022)

Happi said:


> @Deano3
> 
> 10ml daily in how many gallon or liters? and how many ml is your fertilizer solution?


180l tank and 500ml bottle 👍


----------



## Happi (27 Feb 2022)

Deano3 said:


> 180l tank and 500ml bottle 👍


180l tank, 500ml Solution, 10 ml daily

15g potassium nitrate
9g potassium phosphate
40g potassium sulphate
120g magnesium sulphate
6g trace elements

NO3    1.022167
N    0.230898
K    0.644500

PO4    0.697900
P    0.227605
K    0.287300

K    1.994382
S    0.817822

Mg    1.314813
S    1.734600

*not sure which traces you are adding so I didn't put the numbers there.  if you are trying to copy the below numbers, then its not matching with the above. *

APT COMPLETE: 

Each 5ml per 100L dose adds 3.8ppm Potassium (K), 1.8ppm Nitrogen (NO3), 0.7ppm Phosphorus (PO4), 0.05ppm Iron (Fe), 0.4ppm Magnesium (Mg) and additional amounts of Boron (B), Copper (Cu), Manganese (Mn), Molybdenum (Mo) and Zinc (Zn). 

The above dosage is designed to be dosed 4 times a week. So the total per week adds up to: 15.2ppm Potassium (K), 7.2ppm Nitrogen (NO3), 2.8ppm Phosphorus (PO4), 0.2ppm Iron (Fe), 1.6ppm Magnesium (Mg) and additional amounts of Boron (B), Copper (Cu), Manganese (Mn), Molybdenum (Mo) and Zinc (Zn).


----------



## Happi (27 Feb 2022)

@Deano3​
180l tank, 500ml Solution, 10 ml daily

26.42 grams KNO3
NO3    1.8
N    0.406
K    1.13

47.7 K2SO4 
K    2.378
S    0.975

9.03 grams KH2PO4
PO4    0.7
P    0.228
K    0.288

36.51 grams MgSO4.7H2O 
Mg    0.4
S    0.527

10ml per 180 will add the following:
3.8ppm Potassium (K), 1.8ppm Nitrogen (NO3), 0.7ppm Phosphorus (PO4),  0.4ppm Magnesium (Mg)


----------



## Hanuman (28 Feb 2022)

Happi said:


> if you are trying to copy the below numbers, then its not matching with the above.


I believe that was his previous recipe before trying out APT and making the new recipe with the calculator hence why it doesn't match APT.



Happi said:


> 180l tank, 500ml Solution, *10 ml daily*
> 
> 26.42 grams KNO3
> NO3 1.8
> ...


When I read daily, I read/interpret 7x per week. Those amounts you are proposing are ok for 4x per week dosing, not daily, else he will be overdosing beyond APT targets.






Deano3 said:


> I ended u adding as below
> 
> 0.5g ascorbic acid
> 0.2g potassium sorbate
> ...


This recipe is fine and will reach the intended APT targets as long as you dose 10ml daily (7x week).


----------



## Happi (28 Feb 2022)

Got those numbers from APT 3/ Complete from








						2Hr Aquarist APT Complete
					

The choice of award-winning aquascapers. Use this all-in-one fertilizer to tackle the most demanding plants, or just enjoy everyday magic in the simplest tank. The easiest way to unlock the true potential of your planted tank today.




					www.2hraquarist.com
				



Not sure if these numbers are accurate then.


----------



## Hanuman (28 Feb 2022)

Happi said:


> Got those numbers from APT 3/ Complete from
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well they should be since it is the manufacturer providing them. They are the same ones we used in the calculator but your weights are based on a 4x week dosing, not daily. Just wanted to point that out as it could have been misinterpreted by some.

*Edit:* this is what we got in the calculator.




In fact those values were slightly modified in the last update of the calculator because Dennis from 2HrAquarist updated the formula not long ago. He also added the Mg for APT E which was not publicly available before, so we activated that Fertilizer in the calculator, which was previously hidden.


----------



## Happi (28 Feb 2022)

I see what you are saying. He just need to dose 5ml instead of 10 if he was to use that recipe. I was actually calculating the ratio and it wasn't matching with the other numbers that were posted by Dean compared to APT complete ratio.


----------



## Hanuman (28 Feb 2022)

Happi said:


> He just need to dose 5ml instead of 10 if he was to use that recipe.


At 5ml he would be slightly under-dosing compared to the APT targets but not that much far apart. 6ml would be spot on. 

Side note, my experience with APT complete is that it has too low PO4 which can lead to an GSA outbreak. Now it all depends how much plant mass you also have.


----------



## Happi (28 Feb 2022)

Am just throwing in the guesstimate number for 5ml without calculating.

I don't think APT is low in P, look at the  amount and the ratio of 1.7 N to 0.98 P
Most people seems to add more P because of aqua soil.


----------



## Hanuman (28 Feb 2022)

Happi said:


> I don't think APT is low in P, look at the amount and the ratio of 1.7 N to 0.98 P


Actually you are right. Reason I said this is because in the past I used to under-dose (involuntarily) APT Complete, which led me to think P was low. This said, P can be dosed at higher levels with no ill effect to overcome GSA issues. I have had to deal with it and it worked wonders.


----------



## Deano3 (28 Feb 2022)

Hanuman said:


> I believe that was his previous recipe before trying out APT and making the new recipe with the calculator hence why it doesn't match APT.
> 
> 
> When I read daily, I read/interpret 7x per week. Those amounts you are proposing are ok for 4x per week dosing, not daily, else he will be overdosing beyond APT targets.
> ...


Yes the help was greatly appreciated mate 👍 

And yes in my message  i list what i made up and my previous dosing stating i use a lot less so that's great.

Os apt complete a more lean dosing regime @Hanuman than other EI methods ?


----------



## Hanuman (28 Feb 2022)

Deano3 said:


> Is apt complete a more lean dosing regime @Hanuman than other EI methods ?


I wouldn't call APT 3 (Complete) as a lean fertilizer. It is simply a bit leaner on the NO3 side. But still rather enough. The point is to create a nitrate limitation for plants to pop color out.


----------



## Deano3 (28 Feb 2022)

Hanuman said:


> I wouldn't call APT 3 (Complete) as a lean fertilizer. It is simply a bit leaner on the NO3 side. But still rather enough. The point is to create a nitrate limitation for plants to pop color out.


Perfect thank you 😁


----------



## Cd2021 (11 Mar 2022)

Hi @Deano3, 

Just come across this thread and currently dosing APT complete. How are you getting on with this dosing thread? I have the exact same size tank so may steal your dosing regime. 

Thanks 
Chris


----------



## Deano3 (13 Mar 2022)

Cd2021 said:


> Hi @Deano3,
> 
> Just come across this thread and currently dosing APT complete. How are you getting on with this dosing thread? I have the exact same size tank so may steal your dosing regime.
> 
> ...


Seems to be doing ok, still keeping eye been busy lately but some holes in leaves etc but there was before so see how things go and keep you posted, reds seem to be looking better.

Dean


----------



## fishtorque (19 Mar 2022)

Hi guys I'm totally new to salts I really like apt complete but it's just way to expensive so this sounds amazing could someone to do dosing routine for me 

My tanks 200L my container size is 500ml 

Please find below the salts I have @Hanuman @Zeus.


----------



## Hanuman (19 Mar 2022)

fishtorque said:


> Hi guys I'm totally new to salts I really like apt complete but it's just way to expensive so this sounds amazing could someone to do dosing routine for me
> 
> My tanks 200L my container size is 500ml
> 
> Please find below the salts I have @Hanuman @Zeus.


Hi,
Did you play with the calculator? 😎 - Check my signature.


----------



## fishtorque (19 Mar 2022)

Hanuman said:


> Hi,
> Did you play with the calculator? 😎 - Check my signature.


I don't have excel unfortunately 😔 every time I click your name it says their was an error


----------



## Hanuman (19 Mar 2022)

Ok then. Here you go:













Dose 10ml daily. The amounts to be added to your container are in the "Add to container (gram)" column".
Also, technically you don't really need to add Ascorbic acid and Potassium sorbate to the Macro mix if you are separating both macros and micros. If you are doing an ALL in one then yes you need them or if you are doing micro mix. Also you could cut in half the amount of Ascorbic acid, so 0.25gr for your 500ml container.

ALWAYS start by acidifying the water first with the Ascorbic acid and Potassium sorbate. Use RO water for your fertilizer. No tap water.


----------



## fishtorque (19 Mar 2022)

Thanks I appreciate it what happens if I use the same salts but from a different company?

Do you have a link to the calculator you were on about to ?

Sent from my SM-S908B using Tapatalk


----------



## Hanuman (19 Mar 2022)

fishtorque said:


> Thanks I appreciate it what happens if I use the same salts but from a different company?


A salt is a salt no matter the company. There will be no difference whatsoever.



fishtorque said:


> Do you have a link to the calculator you were on about to ?


See my signature vvv . 😎


----------



## eminor (29 Oct 2022)

Why  apt 3 use EI level of PO4 and in the same time use lean dosing of nitrates ?

does higher PO4 level increase the need for more Nitrogen ?


----------



## Hanuman (29 Oct 2022)

@eminor The following picture explains the rational behind the 3 products. APT 3 is actually an EI product but with nitrate limitation to increase plant coloration
As for PO4, APT EI actually has more PO4 than APT 3 so it's all relative.


----------



## eminor (29 Oct 2022)

Hanuman said:


> @eminor The following picture explains the rational behind the 3 products. APT 3 is actually an EI product but with nitrate limitation to increase plant coloration
> As for PO4, APT EI actually has more PO4 than APT 3 so it's all relative.


Thanks, but with this method there is no way to avoid weekly water change, accumulation of po4 will be too high ?


----------



## senyk (16 Nov 2022)

@Deano3 how did this mix end up working for you in comparison to apt complete?

I also have a few questions to replicate apt complete specifically for @Zues. and @Hanuman ( thanks for all your detailed help in this thread so far) Its my first time mixing nutrients and I’m using the calculator – I had to change the dose to 4ml daily from 3ml because using potassium sulfate was pushing the solubility too high. (Screenshot attached of what i hope is the final mix)

Context for questions: I am considering GLA’s PPS-Pro EDTA + DTPA package since online it says ph effects iron and it has the macro ferts. I wasn’t sure if that meant just the ph of the fert solution in the bottle or the ph of the tank, so I figured this covered all bases. My fish tank ph ranges from 7.6 to 6.6 reduced w/ Co2 and GH/KH also varies throughout the week as I have seriyu stone leaching minerals into the water rising as the week goes on. I do water changes once every 1-2 weeks with RO water remineralize to 80-90ppm via salty shrimp gh+.

Questions:

Do either of you agree with my thinking and EDTA + DTPA would be better or should i stick to just EDTA? ( I ask because the EDTA + DTPA option is not contained in the calculator and I don’t want to mess this up by going off on my own and trying a new fert)
Is the fish tank water ph relevant when selecting nutrients or just the solution in the fert bottle?
What is the max length of time I can realistically keep nutrients at room temp and what is the best way to extend the max amount of time? ( I was aiming to make a batch that would last me either 26 or 52 weeks, ~750 or ~1500 ml ) It seems like NilocG and APT have found a way to have their ferts not expire rapidly outside of refrigeration, so I’m hopeful I can replicate
Do I need to shake the nutrients over time or will they always be suspended equally in the solution?
I know Dennis doesn’t release his trace fert information, but looks like theres a lot of different trace fert options online. How does one pick the best trace fert mix to match what is theoretically in apt complete ( best guess ) and should I be targeting a different one than GLA's? or is there no real way to know this/it doesn’t matter?
Being that im making an AIO, can i mix everything in a single large container or do i still need to use the special bottles that come in the fert mixing kits and make 500 ml at a time?

Thanks in advance for helping out this newbie!


----------



## Hanuman (16 Nov 2022)

senyk said:


> Do either of you agree with my thinking and EDTA + DTPA would be better or should i stick to just EDTA? ( I ask because the EDTA + DTPA option is not contained in the calculator and I don’t want to mess this up by going off on my own and trying a new fert)


You can use both is fine or one alone.



senyk said:


> Is the fish tank water ph relevant when selecting nutrients or just the solution in the fert bottle?


Not at all, well maybe for Iron chelates and if you use certain chelated traces.



The solution in the fert bottles needs to be acidified so that elements inside the solution don't interact and precipitate out. Anywhere between 3-5PH should be fine. That's why we advise using Ascorbic Acid + potassium sorbate.
Ferts that you add in your tank have absolutely no effect on the PH of your tank water considering the minute amounts you are adding in relation to the tank volume.



senyk said:


> What is the max length of time I can realistically keep nutrients at room temp and what is the best way to extend the max amount of time? ( I was aiming to make a batch that would last me either 26 or 52 weeks, ~750 or ~1500 ml ) It seems like NilocG and APT have found a way to have their ferts not expire rapidly outside of refrigeration, so I’m hopeful I can replicate


Well you can't compare what a manufacturer does to what we are doing in our homes. Actual industrial manufacturers have several protocols in place and mixtures that allow them to have a clean end product. When we DIY it's not the same. We introduce patogens and use mild acids. One way to extend the shelf life of DIY fert is to use Sodium benzoate in place of ascorbic acid + potassium sorbate. In principle the DTPA > 10% will acidify the water. DTPA <10% will do the opposite so you need to use higher % Fe DTPA.
We recommend usually that you don't produce fert that last more than 4-8 weeks. Can be more if you are careful etc.



senyk said:


> Do I need to shake the nutrients over time or will they always be suspended equally in the solution?


If you see a lot of precipitation through time then it means you did something wrong. If only a little then you could give it a shake. I personally don't bother since I prepare solution every 2-3 months.



senyk said:


> I know Dennis doesn’t release his trace fert information, but looks like theres a lot of different trace fert options online. How does one pick the best trace fert mix to match what is theoretically in apt complete ( best guess ) and should I be targeting a different one than GLA's? or is there no real way to know this/it doesn’t matter?


Just pick one, really. They'll all do.



senyk said:


> Being that im making an AIO, can i mix everything in a single large container or do i still need to use the special bottles that come in the fert mixing kits and make 500 ml at a time?


If you are going to do an AIO you would always need to acidify the receiving water prior adding anything in it. In any case don't make solution too concentrated.


----------

