# For sale section (Not many Donations)



## John Starkey (3 Apr 2011)

i will start by apologising if this post offends anyone,but i feel a little miffed after having a look in the for sale section that hardly anyone feels kind enough to make a donation to the forum from the sale of their plants and other stuff ,this site does not run itself and cannot continue unaided by its members,so come guys and gals a couple of quid for a few cutting cant hurt can it   ,

john.


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## a1Matt (3 Apr 2011)

I agree, it is sad to see the lack of donations of late.
We used to see a lot more donations (and also a lot more stuff for swap too).
I prefer to make my donations privately, hopefully there are a few others doing the same.


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## GHNelson (3 Apr 2011)

Hi
Maybe the seller and buyer can make 5% or 10% donation each on reflection of the price.
Or we could make a small donation for posting a For Sale/Swap item......even set aside a portion of plants for sale on behalf of the forum.
We need some guidelines in place which are not obligatory.
Most items are sold cheaper anyway within the ukaps for sale section....I dont think it will cause much hardship.
Just my thoughts.
Regards
hoggie


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## Steve Smith (3 Apr 2011)

In the past many have been happy enough to pass cuttings on for the cost of postage and a small donation, or even just a donation.  I think that worked pretty well


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## 1stgolf (3 Apr 2011)

Hi sorry to go off topic here but ive looked for the forsale section on the forum and cant find it is this because im a new member or somthing?
Thanks


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## Steve Smith (3 Apr 2011)

Hi 1stgolf.  Yep, it should appear after a certain amount of posts (I forget how many).  The idea being it stops people signing up purely to sell/buy and not necessarily be part of the forum/society.


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## 1stgolf (3 Apr 2011)

Thanks steve and i totaly understand as its like it on a few of the other forums i use.


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## ghostsword (4 Apr 2011)

My two cents. 

I buy often from UKAPS, and the prices are very close to what one sees on ebay, but with the added benefit that I am buying from a smaller community. 

I used to donate to the forum, but stopped, as I was not seeing really no benefit from it, my point of view, no transparency as to what the money is used.

However the forum maintenance costs money, the hosting, the work put in, etc. 

So instead of charging a fee for the buying and selling, why not have a paid subscription to the forum? Say £20 per year, and only the supporting members are able to buy and sell, take part on trips organised by the forum, and access to a VIP area.

You would still maintain the forum open to all, but in order to get more from it, one would need to pay.

Also, offer gift subscriptions, so that the access can be given to others less well off. 

That would be fair I think.


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## John Starkey (4 Apr 2011)

ghostsword said:
			
		

> My two cents.
> 
> I buy often from UKAPS, and the prices are very close to what one sees on ebay, but with the added benefit that I am buying from a smaller community.
> 
> ...



Hi Luis,i take your point,but the idea of donating is to support the ongoing of the forum,not for benefiting ones self or to make money from,i am not implying any one is out to gain profit from the for sale section,indeed i am happy to swop my cuttings when ever i want something,the point am trying to make is the community needs donations,there are far too many people who come on here get all the info then want how to grow a successful planted tank and then we don,t see them or hear from them again,one point you made i think is a good idea was the yearly membership fee if you want to trade or buy/sell,but by the same token we are supposed to be a friendly community of like minded hobbyist,s,which brings me back to my original point,a small donation is all we ask,

regards,
john.


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## Piece-of-fish (4 Apr 2011)

a1Matt said:
			
		

> I agree, it is sad to see the lack of donations of late.
> We used to see a lot more donations (and also a lot more stuff for swap too).
> I prefer to make my donations privately, hopefully there are a few others doing the same.



I do donate without mentioning sometimes as well. Dont see the point to write all the time when i do couple £ donation.
But i did notice recently when selling plants for donation noone bothers to donate.
I think it is better to sell them and mention that this money will be donated to the forum and make donation by yourself.

Subscriptions would just put people off in my opinion.
An option could be to make mandatory donation from sales. 5% for example or so.


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## andyh (4 Apr 2011)

I contribute when I can, both plants and shrimps and donations.  

But I think a paid subscription is seriously flawed, it would dramatically affect the membership levels  

The main appeal is that UKAPS is a wonderful free resource for all take part in and a paid membership would affect people's choice to join.

The forum needs as many members as it can get to contribute regularly to keep it up to date and interesting, the minute you consider introducing a paid membership it would create a divide.

I spend a serious amount of money on the hobby (like many others) and I for one wouldn’t consider even for a second paying to be a member of UKAPS, as there are too many other good resources out there which are free. I am not saying that UKAPS isn’t worth it, as resource its one of the best out there. I juts think it should be freely available for all.

I do think that a push could be made on members to contribute if they are able if the club funds are running dry. I am sure it wouldn’t be hard to start a thread saying please contribute by clicking this link etc. Its seemed fairly easy to contribute via Paypal to me. 

I for one have confidence in the Club Mods to spend the money wisely.

Sorry for ranting  

Andyh


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## ghostsword (4 Apr 2011)

Valid points, but I would still say that force a paid subscription to sell, alternatively use a percentage donation, or charge. 

The only section that would be affected by the subscription would be the sale section, all the rest would be free as it is. 

If the forum needs funds that is the best way to contribute, as relying on donations is proving to be an issue.

Also, why not have a supporting member section, people would pay £20 and get a supporting member banner on their avatar. That would work also.

I personally did not benefit from the UKAPS trip to Vivarium, paid my own way, but it wasn't cheap. 

If the forum needs to put more trips such as that then it needs money, as that trip must have cost a fortune. 

The area that UKAPS was using, bigger than most other stands, the tanks, the plants, the ferry, the van, etc, costs a fair whack, and to rely on donations is foolish the least.


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## Steve Smith (4 Apr 2011)

Don't forget that UKAPS gets a small amount from sponsorship as well.  Donations are very important though, as the cost of becoming a sponsor really isn't that high.

I'm torn between the idea of a subscription based setup.  I think perhaps a small yearly subscription to be able to use the sale/swap forum could work but I can't imagine someone paying more than £10 a year for this.  This would mean that all of the excellent information and resources available on the forum are still completely free.  But, you have to consider whether there would be increased administration to make sure it all runs smoothly etc.

Also, I like the idea of maybe a "Friend of UKAPS" badge for someone donating to the society.  Another forum I use has a system of recurring donations which gives you a star.  You can pay a recurring donation of only a few pounds or more if you want, and it gives you a symbol next to your name to say that you do.  It is, of course, completely voluntary and relies on peoples good will.

It's all food for thought 

Disclaimer:  All of the above are just my thoughts, not those of the admin/mod team


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## LondonDragon (4 Apr 2011)

I don't think membership is the way forward, also to achieve this we would need a complete new forum infrastructure as the current software would not be practical to use for this kind of system, I have made donations in the past and did not mention on the donation thread, but I do think if people sell stuff here they should at least give a small donation, due to the size of the forum and traffic levels recently we had to move the server which now costs UKAPS 3 times to keep up than what it did before.

Also I don't think UKAPS can sustain a Vivarium trip every year on donations, the costs involved are just too high, I made a contribution towards it upon my return to give something back and sold some plants to help out as well.

There are other areas to explore though, in attracting more sponsors to the forum, not just retailers like at present but also manufacturers etc... no forum, just banners on the site. We could also get some sponsorship from sponsors, manufacturers etc.. for events, for a small fee have some of their leaflets on display or put a banner up on the stand, etc.... this would also make the stand look busier and attract more people.

People don't have to contribute with donations off course, in the end its their choice, but contributions in the long run by just posts won't keep the forum going, needs a little of both 

Enjoy the forum


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## ghostsword (4 Apr 2011)

The idea of having manufacturers sponsoring the site would be good, but how would that affect honest opinion? 

Does the forum software allows for inserting a banner on the user avatar location? If so, sell the "Supporting Member" banner. If not, then maybe you should upgrade the forum software. Need to move on with the times and start the monetize the forum.


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## stevec (4 Apr 2011)

you could ask the sellers to make a donation of a voluntary amount everytime they advertise something 

Also i understand the reasons for hiding newcomers from the for sale forum but beginners often need the plants equipment that is being offered there? perhaps you could increase the posting limit and offer a fastrack way into the for sale forums say a fiver buys you instant access if your a new member.


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## Piece-of-fish (4 Apr 2011)

So whats the point of having Supporting Member badge?
Showcase purposes only?


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## Morgan Freeman (4 Apr 2011)

SteveUK said:
			
		

> Hi 1stgolf.  Yep, it should appear after a certain amount of posts (I forget how many).  The idea being it stops people signing up purely to sell/buy and not necessarily be part of the forum/society.



So that's why I can't see it, I've been scratching my head trying to work it out   

Another forum I'm on has optional membership, It gives you the option of removing adverts, increasing the size of your inbox, allows you to adjust the description beneath your name to whatever you like etc etc. I think it's like £5 per 6 months. You don't have to do it to access all the info on the forum but if you're a regular it's nice to have a few added bonuses.


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## John Starkey (4 Apr 2011)

As the OP of this thread I can't believe the can of worms it has stirred up,all I was doing was stating my disappointment in the lack of donations being made,all the post in the for sale section was for resale,I remember in the past when there was lots of donations being made,as for subscriptions I think that's viable for some and  not for others,personally I wouldn't have a problem with paying a fee as I love Ukaps and it's ideals and I wouldn't want to see it end,but let's try and keep on track about what I originally said,donations are voulantry,but it is appreciated when members do donate,

so lets  keep on topic and not go way off by talking about fees and for this and that, lets just try and donate a little  when you can afford it 

Regards all
John


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## GHNelson (4 Apr 2011)

Hi
I think its time to re-evaluate the situation....I want this site to be free for all.......including young Aquascapers.
It looks as though there as been a noticeable increase of new members in the last few weeks.To charge a subscription of any kind would have a detrimental effect on the site.
As i said at the very start of this post a nominal donation of 5% or 10% would be a valued donation by the buyers or sellers.
hoggie


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## Steve Smith (4 Apr 2011)

Don't worry folks, this is all just discussion and ideas.  Rest assured that there are no plans to implement any kind of subscription etc.

This society has always functioned based on the input of it's members.  The most valuable thing, in my honest opinion, is the wealth of knowledge available to everyone.  We've seen a big increase in users since all of the forums were made completely public (i.e. you no longer need to be registered to read the forums).  I think this shows that charging a subscription would be detrimental.  But lets not forget that people were talking purely about the sale/swap section.

Anyway, as John points out, we're getting away from his original intention of this thread which is to remind people that it is the donations that help keep the machinery in the background working.  It's a show of support from society members.  We're a community and a society of like minded folk with a passion for the same thing, and not just a web forum


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## GHNelson (4 Apr 2011)

Totally agree with Steve
 Come on get donating
hoggie


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## Themuleous (4 Apr 2011)

I agree, the wealth of free info out there means a subscription would just push people away.  Some kind of charge for using the buy/sell section would also be difficult to implement as its not in anyway connected to the payment methods used.  If you'd be happy to pay a small subscription why not just donate anyway?

We just need to encourage people to donate that's all, if you feel you have benefited from the forum please donate using the button provided  

Sam


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## Piece-of-fish (5 Apr 2011)

One thing for sure i will start doing is donating myself as a seller rather than listing plants for donation. Will point in the post that funds will be donated though.


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## John S (5 Apr 2011)

I've lurked here for ages with only a handfull of posts, mainly because aquariums are newish to me and I don't want to ask questions that the more experienced people have answered 10000 times before. This site has been an invaluable source of information for me and there is a great community here. I would be happy to donate (and will) but if it were subscription based I doubt i'd have joined and I agree it may put new members off. 

Has the donation system worked well in the past and has just died off?

Some sites have a cost / month target listed on the home page with the option to donate to meet some of the runing costs?


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## a1Matt (5 Apr 2011)

Piece-of-fish said:
			
		

> One thing for sure i will start doing is donating myself as a seller rather than listing plants for donation. Will point in the post that funds will be donated though.



This is my intention too.



			
				davem said:
			
		

> Has the donation system worked well in the past and has just died off?



Yes.  This is it exactly.  John's intention was to respark the interest in the donation system.


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## Nelson (5 Apr 2011)

can't the donate link be put at the top of the page where its more visible  :idea: .


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## ghostsword (5 Apr 2011)

Why not list the monthly expenses on the page and then list how much to reach target? As people donate they will see the impact of their donation. 

I got a few bits to sell, usually sell it through ebay, but can put a couple here for 100% donation, minus the postage that is, or people can schedule a pickup using parcel to go, very easy and cheap.

The posting is here, so lets see who is prepared to help the forum.
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=15419


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## Piece-of-fish (5 Apr 2011)

I think it'd be a good point to put that topic to General discussions section where lot more people would see it.
I doubt a lot of people go to off topic.

Luis I'd never pay 40£ for a piece of wood without seeing it  8)


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## ghostsword (5 Apr 2011)

Let me see if I got a photo on flickr of the wood. Just don't feel like going to get the camera to take some shots.  

If the wood sells I will put some more stuff, maybe once per month.

EDIT:
picture added, the long piece on the right.

Manzanita sent in March by GHOSTSWORD, on Flickr


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## John Starkey (5 Apr 2011)

ghostsword said:
			
		

> Why not list the monthly expenses on the page and then list how much to reach target? As people donate they will see the impact of their donation.
> 
> I got a few bits to sell, usually sell it through ebay, but can put a couple here for 100% donation, minus the postage that is, or people can schedule a pickup using parcel to go, very easy and cheap.
> 
> ...



Look guys lets put this to bed here and now,all this talk of fee,s and displaying accounts is way over the top   ,all i was doing was bring to members attention that the donations don,t seem be happening like they did in the past,ok we are in a big downward trend in the work and financial market and if people cannot afford to donate then so be it,but i hope in the future when things are on the upturn they will consider making a donation,

END OF STORY FOLKS

have a good week,

john.


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## a1Matt (5 Apr 2011)

There is no turning back now John, you've stirred up the hornets nest good and proper   
At least it shows that people are passionate about the forum!


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## John Starkey (5 Apr 2011)

a1Matt said:
			
		

> There is no turning back now John, you've stirred up the hornets nest good and proper
> At least it shows that people are passionate about the forum!



I agree Matt,being passionate about one,s hobby is great,but not passionate enough so it seems    ,

John.


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## andyh (5 Apr 2011)

andy passes john a big ladder to get out of the hole he has created!


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## Steve Smith (5 Apr 2011)

Well I think everyone's had a chance to discuss this now and it's got the issue of donations into people's heads.  I'll lock the topic now, as I don't want it to spiral off out of control.

I think there's been some interesting ideas raised, and some good points made.  Specifically I hope people remember that donations are voluntary, but I also hope that people feel the urge and want to donate when they can to support this great society and this wonderful resource for the aquascaping community.

Cheers guys


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## George Farmer (6 Apr 2011)

Interesting topic, guys.  Thanks for contributing, all.

The way I see it - 

If you are using UKAPS to sell stuff, and if you can afford a small donation, then please consider giving something.  The recent expedition to Vivarium is as good a reason as any... 

For those that cannot afford to give financially, then all I ask is you contribute in a positive manner via your posts and attitude, as the vast majority of genuine UKAPS members do already.

Cheers,
George


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