# CRS and Ei Dosing (copper) ?



## Emyr (28 Oct 2013)

Hi Guys,

Im sure this has been asked before but I couldn't find any specific answers. 

I am about to start EI dosing my tank with the standard micro and macro solutions. The micro trace elements mix has 0.23% Copper in it according to the website. 

Will I be able to keep CRS while using this? Or should I think about re-adjusting the mix with a smaller quantity of trace elements and more pure iron?

Any experience or knowledge feedback would be really appreciated, thanks


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## Nealeg (28 Oct 2013)

The slightest trace of copper will kill the shrimp.


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## sa80mark (28 Oct 2013)

Imo dont worry about it, there are alot of shrimp keepers out there dosing ei and premixed ferts also theres an awful lot of foods that contain traces of copper and this is never an issue for any shrimp keeper I know,

There are quite a few shrimp experts and keepers on here and no doubt one will be along soon


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## roadmaster (28 Oct 2013)

Believe you would have to dose way in excess of EI with the CSM+B for it to become toxic for shrimp.
I use it a couple times a week in low tech with cherry shrimp/amano and no issues.
Seachem's flourish comprehensive has less copper and I have used it as well.


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## ceg4048 (28 Oct 2013)

Nealeg said:


> The slightest trace of copper will kill the shrimp.


Another quote from The Matrix.


FYI. Invert blood uses Copper. They have Hemocyanin, which is Copper based protein for gathering Oxygen instead of Hemoglobin which is Iron based.

Cheers,


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## Andy Thurston (28 Oct 2013)

0.23% ??? Are you sure its not 0.023%
I use tnc complete at 3x dose to dose EI and that contains 0.002% Cu.


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## bogwood (28 Oct 2013)

My CRS have survived the weekly dose of cooper, in my Tropica fert and bred like rabbits.


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## Emyr (28 Oct 2013)

Thanks for clearing that one up! My limited knowledge hunch was that it was fine, but I thought it best to check before investing in relatively expensive CRS. 

I will go ahead with the standard trace elements solution. 



Big clown said:


> 0.23% ??? Are you sure its not 0.023%


 
Fe 8.2%
Mn 1.82%
Zn 1.16%
B 1.05%
Cu 0.23%
Mo 0.15%

From aquarium plant food UK, chelated trace elements dry salt. My understanding if that Its 0.23% of the pure salt mix, before mixing it with RO water, which will dilute the percentage down to something nearer your 0.002%. Correct me if I'm wrong though anybody. 



ceg4048 said:


> The slightest trace of copper will kill the shrimp. Another quote from The Matrix.


 
I was waiting in anticipation for your response to that one ceg


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## Andy Thurston (28 Oct 2013)

Sounds about right to me. I thought they were the numbers for the made up solution not the dry mix. Like clive says no need to worry


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## GreenNeedle (28 Oct 2013)

Emyr said:


> Thanks for clearing that one up! My limited knowledge hunch was that it was fine, but I thought it best to check before investing in relatively expensive CRS.
> 
> I will go ahead with the standard trace elements solution.
> 
> ...


 

This is correct.  The % of the actual product is .23 but ppms is worked out after you mix it.  If you mixed it with a tenth of the water it would end up as .02 etc.

I have dosed much heavier than EI x 1 in shrimp tanks with no problems.

The statement above that Ceg replies to is a symptom of the myths that still abound in the hobby because as Ceg says if copper was eliminated entirely from the tank no life would be able to live.


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## basil (29 Oct 2013)

Whilst I agree that the relatively small amounts of copper in ferts is not generally a problem, I think that it's worth holding some respect for the fact that it is highly toxic to shrimp and other inverts at higher levels. It's just a matter of understanding what that threshold of tolerance is.

I have dosed liquid ferts in my low tech moss tanks, but I do tend to be cautious and dose half amounts....just to be safe! I avoid using completely when new born shrimplets are about. In my higher grade and more sensitive species, I don't use any ferts at all. Maybe an unnecessary caution, but I'd rather not take the chance. But then again I'm more of s shrimper than a planter!


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## ceg4048 (29 Oct 2013)

Yes, but the problem is that the shrimpers should be the ones doing the most testing to verify what the toxic levels are. Instead, all they seem to do generally, is to fan the flames of hysteria without offering any real verification or validation.

No one doubts that Copper is toxic, but so is CO2, and that doesn't stop people from using CO2. The hysteria regarding Copper seems to be rooted in the use of Copper Sulfate and other Copper Salts specifically sold to eradicate snails. In those products, the Copper concentration is known to be high, but people automatically assume that the same concentration levels are present in the micro mixes. The levels differ by orders of magnitude, but no one pays attention to that fact. Toxicity is only ever a function of concentration level, NOT merely the presence of a substance, as clearly indicated by the fact that inverts blood Oxygen chemistry is Copper based.

Why not embark on a project in which caution is thrown to the wind? Why not set up test tanks populated with shrimp and dosed at various concentration levels to observe the effects? Then we will have some real data instead of myths, and we will know exactly at what point to be cautious.

Cheers,


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (29 Oct 2013)

So to sum this thread up in 3 words:

Everything in moderation..


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## GreenNeedle (29 Oct 2013)

Even EI is moderation when we are talking about the levels added.  Pretty similar to the 'keep nitrates under 30' that used to be bandied about.  It is 'excess dosing' but not at a scale where we are anywhere near polluting


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## basil (29 Oct 2013)

Nathaniel Whiteside said:


> So to sum this thread up in 3 words:
> 
> Everything in moderation..


 
Thanks Nath - a sensible answer indeed and bob on!  

"Move on please........nothing to see hear!"


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## nphsmith (16 Dec 2013)

There are some studies (though not necessarily on 'our' shrimp):
http://www.jeb.co.in/journal_issues/200607_jul06/paper_21.pdf . I don't fully understand it - greater minds than mine can no doubt comment, but I thik in this study it suggests that 50% mortality was achieved at 0.3-0.4ish ppm. However, there is considerable variance with other species. Also, 50% mortality is a reasonable basis for studies focused on fisheries, it's probably not what we want to achieve.

I know in the marine world, there has been/is a reevaluation of lethality of heavy metals to inverts...where it was considered lethal at tiny ppb levels (with the result that aquarists were trying to achieve sub-NSW levels of Copper in their tanks), it doesn't appear to be the case...though we are ten years on and the myths are still there!

Feature Article: Toxicity Of Trace Elements: Truth Or Myth? — Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog
Feature Article: Is It Really In The Water? A Critical Reexamination Of Toxic Metals, Part 3 — Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog


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