# Sphagnum peat and... ?



## Zante (27 Jan 2017)

I'm planning a soil tank, and wanted to cap it with one or two cm of Argos play sand, with a net to keep the corys from mixing it up and still allow roots and nutrients through.

At first I was thinking a 50/50 mix of sphagnum peat and soil dug up from the woods (and baked for an hour or so to avoid introducing nasties). But now I'm thinking that cat litter could also be a good ingredient.

Any suggestions on a good mix?

The end result is supposed to be a planted riparium with discus.


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## zozo (27 Jan 2017)

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/the-soil-substrate-or-dirted-planted-tank-a-how-to-guide.18943/

Tho i'm not sure if this is the way to go with a discus tank.. Reading into and listening and watching a lot about keeping these fish.. It seems they are very sensitive to bacterial infections and rather need to be kept in the top range of tropical temperatures, this only benefits and excelerates bacterial growth. So in planted tanks we should avoid pockets with debri and if a discus forages from the substrates ingesting rotting material it could be fatal.

Using dirt from the forest found in nature if baked or not, still can contain an amount of organic materials not propperly cycled and containing substances prone to induce rotting.

Personaly, looking and the prices per discus and all the horror stories about their sensitivity i would rather go very controlled on a planted discus tank and leave the least as possible to chances.


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## Zante (27 Jan 2017)

I can tell you that those stories are exaggerated. People even keep them in bare tanks because of those stories!

I have kept them in a community tank, planted and doing half the recommended water changes and never vacuuming the sand, and they thrived. One pair even bred successfully with tetras, corys and bristlenoses in the tank. I kept a few stalks of pothos in the tank and they formed a mass of roots that trapped quite a bit of organic material, but the fish were just fine.

The stories of their sensitivity are indeed true, but if you keep wild caught ones, that even have different dietary requirements. The captive bred ones are quite robust. They do need a bit more attention than, say, a tankful of angels, but not that much.

In any case the final destination is going to be discus, and that will be a few months after setup, as I want the plants to grow in properly and the whole thing nice and stable before I add any fish, and the discus will be last.


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## Zante (27 Jan 2017)

Oh, thanks for the link, I'll read through it


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## JSeymour (29 Jan 2017)

Hexamita is a common soil pathogen, something discus are very sensitive to. Also, any native forest soil will have lots of organic material which most likely will cause nutrient issues for the first month or so. Rather than mix peat with forest soil, maybe mix it with a loam. Loam can be thought of as naturally mineralized soil, often mixed with sand.

Sandy loam and peat is what I use to grow over 50 species of Cryptocoryne. Looks like this at about 50/50.


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## JSeymour (29 Jan 2017)

JSeymour said:


> grow over 50 species of Cryptocoryne.


 50 species/varieties


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## Zante (29 Jan 2017)

Any pathogens in the soil is the reason I'd bake the soil before using it.

As for the nutrients, as I mentioned, the tank will be simply a garden with no fish for a while. I want to plant dwarf hairgrass and I want it to be well grown in before the corys start digging it up.

Also I'm planning to add tubifex to the tank, and leave them be for a while before adding any fish. They should keep the soil well turned and "aerated" with their activity underground, and provide occasional live food when they pop above the surface.

That after the wood I intend to use has gotten waterlogged and sunk. Overall it will take some time to settle before adding any fish at all, I don't expect less than three months, and that should be enough for the nutrients surplus to be kept in check by the many plants above and below water.

In any case after reading the thread linked by zozo, I am considering a mix of sphagnum peat, sand and red clay, and possibly potting soil. I'm also looking at adding a small amount of akadama in the mix, but that may be overdoing it.


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## JSeymour (29 Jan 2017)

Baking will kill most macro-organisms and microbes, but may bacteria and fungal spores can survive extreme temperatures(200 degrees F). If you bake at a higher temp, you will truly sterilize the soil, but may destroy many of the organic compounds. If these burn, it may even produce carcinogens. Mineralized soils can be super heated to sterilize without issue, as they have no organics to burn. The only warning with mineralized soil, don't go below 5.5 pH.

I like the tubifex idea, but it won't work the way you think. They will actually cause anaerobic zones, not aerate. They only live in the top most layer, and produce a "mat" of waste material at the surface, blocking aeration of the soil below. In low numbers not a problem, but something to watch out for.

Although you don't need to follow the whole procedure(and with discus, I recommend you don't), look up soil selection for the walstad method. It's about as natural as you can go, and you'll note, the vast majority of the beautiful systems you'll see are using mineralized soil (or have been running for 6+ months and mineralized with time). Of course mineralized soil is not required for a beautiful tank, just makes it much easier to begin with. Loam (million year old mineralized soil) is very cheap at most landscape supply lots. Mixing sand and fine clay is fairly close to sandy loam. Just skip the potting soil, IMO.


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## Zante (29 Jan 2017)

JSeymour said:


> Baking will kill most macro-organisms and microbes, but may bacteria and fungal spores can survive extreme temperatures(200 degrees F). If you bake at a higher temp, you will truly sterilize the soil, but may destroy many of the organic compounds. If these burn, it may even produce carcinogens. Mineralized soils can be super heated to sterilize without issue, as they have no organics to burn. The only warning with mineralized soil, don't go below 5.5 pH.



I've pretty much dropped the idea of using "natural soil" anyway. 



JSeymour said:


> I like the tubifex idea, but it won't work the way you think. They will actually cause anaerobic zones, not aerate. They only live in the top most layer, and produce a "mat" of waste material at the surface, blocking aeration of the soil below. In low numbers not a problem, but something to watch out for.



Do you have any suggestions of critters that could be added to the tank that would complement the tubifex's activity? I would actually prefer more variety of mini fauna in this sense, it would be closer to the original inspiration for this idea (reef tanks).



JSeymour said:


> Although you don't need to follow the whole procedure(and with discus, I recommend you don't), look up soil selection for the walstad method. It's about as natural as you can go, and you'll note, the vast majority of the beautiful systems you'll see are using mineralized soil (or have been running for 6+ months and mineralized with time). Of course mineralized soil is not required for a beautiful tank, just makes it much easier to begin with. Loam (million year old mineralized soil) is very cheap at most landscape supply lots. Mixing sand and fine clay is fairly close to sandy loam. Just skip the potting soil, IMO.



I do have Walstad's book, I probably should pick it up again.
I was thinking of "making my own loam" if you see what I mean, but it probably would be best to just buy it, and add a little bit of the red clay for its iron content.

I will be setting up a "pilot tank" on a smaller scale before doing this one with blue rams instead of discus. It'll allow me to try this set up in a more controllable environment: two pairs of rams will be easier to drop in another, more traditional aquarium if it should go tits up. Also I've been wanting to have rams again for a while now


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## JSeymour (29 Jan 2017)

Zante said:


> I've pretty much dropped the idea of using "natural soil" anyway.
> 
> Do you have any suggestions of critters that could be added to the tank that would complement the tubifex's activity? I would actually prefer more variety of mini fauna in this sense, it would be closer to the original inspiration for this idea (reef tanks).
> 
> ...



Organic soils do have their place and give fantastic results, just with discus and disease sensitivity, there's a risk.

As additional biodiversity, you'll be very limited to some degree. The freshwater hobby just never progressed that way,  unlike the marine hobby. There are all sorts of organisms you can get though. Planaria, rotifers, and copepods, as well as a few others, can often be ordered through biological supply houses, but they tend to be expensive. You might find some available on auction type websites as freshwater live food. Freshwater worms will be hard to find for sale. They can be collected and cultured/quarantined though. Some might make the transition to tropical. This is a process that can be laborious, but would give you access to many more species. Unfortunately, due to global  disease and pest issues, you can't get live wood or mud from tropical rivers and lakes like they do with live rock and sand from the reef.

DIY loam is a great way to go. A lot of people go this route, realized or not.


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## Zante (29 Jan 2017)

Trying to "tropicalise" and quarantine local invertebrates could be an interesting project even if I end up not using the end result. I have loads of smaller tanks that could be put to such use. I was planning to set up some live food coltures anyway.

As for the DIY loam, it's likely that I will indeed have to go down that route. It's not something that is easily found in Italy.

What do you think about the addition of a small amount of akadama to the mix? Too much? Not useful?


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## JSeymour (30 Jan 2017)

In the past, I've introduced many different pond animals and protists. In systems without fish, you can even watch daily zooplankton swarm migrations to the surface. It's quite interesting.

I did not realize you were in Italy. Volcanic soils are excellent, possibly better. If you can find a fairly sandy location, take a few pounds and place it in water. If there isn't alot of floating debris and settles within a couple days, you've found some good stuff. Stay away from locations known for limestone, the pH will be high.

As far as Akadama, I've never used it. Just based off the thousands of tanks and emersed systems that do, I recommend it. Seems to be great stuff. It has a few caveats, regarding pH and 'freshness', but in the long run provides very stable conditions and growth.


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## Zante (30 Jan 2017)

I'm going to move soon to the village I grew up in, with a stream and a river. I know _exactly_ where to look for sandy mud 

I even have the stream flow next to the flat I've bought.


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## dw1305 (30 Jan 2017)

Hi all,





Zante said:


> Do you have any suggestions of critters that could be added to the tank that would complement the tubifex's activity? I would actually prefer more variety of mini fauna in this sense, it would be closer to the original inspiration for this idea


PM when you are set up, I can send you a starter pack of <"tank janitors">. I keep a good <"range of invertebrates">.

cheers Darrel


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## Zante (30 Jan 2017)

Thanks, I appreciate it.


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## dw1305 (30 Jan 2017)

Hi all, 





JSeymour said:


> Organic soils do have their place and give fantastic results, just with discus and disease sensitivity, there's a risk.


There is an interesting article on "Reefs to Rainforest" which might be relevant <"Aquarium musings, binging out the best in ...">.

cheers Darrel


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## JSeymour (31 Jan 2017)

I've noticed similar behaviour differences in 'wild' setups, expecially in cichlids. From angels that follow young peacock bass feeding, snatching up floating particles as the bass foraged. Even timid, yet extremely aggressive pike cichlid males, became more outgoing, and peaceful with more elaborate aquascaping.


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## sciencefiction (4 Feb 2017)

Zante said:


> Any pathogens in the soil is the reason I'd bake the soil before using it.





zozo said:


> Tho i'm not sure if this is the way to go with a discus tank.. Reading into and listening and watching a lot about keeping these fish.. It seems they are very sensitive to bacterial infections and rather need to be kept in the top range of tropical temperatures, this only benefits and excelerates bacterial growth. So in planted tanks we should avoid pockets with debri and if a discus forages from the substrates ingesting rotting material it could be fatal.





Zante said:


> I've pretty much dropped the idea of using "natural soil" anyway.



I don't want to disagree with any of that due to lack of experience keeping discus.

However, based on read material, if you take for example mycobacteria, in order for a specific species of it to be cultured properly in a scientific experiment, you need to "disinfect" everything and kill any other bacteria of similar or other kind, all of which present a threat to the studied species as they can outcompete the proper multiplication and development of that species of mycobacteria. There are accounts from experienced rainbow fish keepers that reckon that when you "disinfect" everything, you create enviroments for super species of pathogens, like the most robust mycobacteria species because they've nothing else bar fish to compete against them... 

This applies very much to tanks being bleached...You can't kill all and what you don't kill will be the demise of all....

In my mind, discus are weak and often sick because for generations out of nature they were kept in environments with little biological diversity, in which there are only a few powerful species of pathogens having the lives of their time.....In old times when they were first brought into captivity, people thought no water changes were a good thing for fish...Then people found out water changes kept discus alive but they brought it to a whole new level of "human type" disinfection habits which can't even work for bringing up a healthy child..... If I have the time and facilities one day...I'll have a proper experiment with discus for a few generations....


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## JSeymour (4 Feb 2017)

sciencefiction said:


> I don't want to disagree with any of that due to lack of experience keeping discus.
> 
> However, based on read material, if you take for example mycobacteria, in order for a specific species of it to be cultured properly in a scientific experiment, you need to "disinfect" everything and kill any other bacteria of similar or other kind, all of which present a threat to the studied species as they can outcompete the proper multiplication and development of that species of mycobacteria. There are accounts from experienced rainbow fish keepers that reckon that when you "disinfect" everything, you create enviroments for super species of pathogens, like the most robust mycobacteria species because they've nothing else bar fish to compete against them... This applies very much to tanks being bleached...You can't kill all and what you don't kill will be the demise of all....
> 
> In my mind, discus are weak and often sick because for generations out of nature they were kept in environments with little biological diversity, in which there are only a few powerful species of pathogens having the lives of their time.....In old times when they were first brought into captivity, people thought no water changes were a good thing for fish...Then people found out water changes kept discus alive but they brought it to a whole new level of "human type" disinfection habits which can't even work for bringing up a healthy child..... If I have the time and facilities one day...I'll have a proper experiment with discus for a few generations....


I completely get what you mean, and to some degree, I'm sure it can be applied to discus. In general though, captive bred discus have developed stronger immune systems and are not nearly as sensitive as their wild counterparts.  Most of the infections and diseases we are referring to, like Spironucleosis(Hexamita), are soil bound organisms that many fish are sensitive to or carriers of. Minimizing the number introduced allows "good" organisms present on plants, driftwood, fish, etc. to outcompete these "bad" organisms.

It doesn't always work out as planned,  but when you've potentially spent a few hundred dollars on a couple fish, it's usually best to try to prevent infectious organisms from being introduced in the first place. It's often easier to prevent than treat, just requires more patience.


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## sciencefiction (4 Feb 2017)

JSeymour said:


> Most of the infections and diseases we are referring to, like Spironucleosis(Hexamita), are soil bound organisms that many fish are sensitive to or carriers of.



I have never kept discus but I have quite the experience with hexamita and the specific parasites causing it,  and all type of ways of treating it...It needs a host such as fish. It can be transmitted via feaces and accumulated detritus but it being in soil or being prevalent in soil tanks is just a speculation.....I think singling soil tanks out is based on nothing but imagination. In fact, for every pathogenic organism there is an enemy in a diverse and established tank...if kept properly from the start and over the years...Its just like the food chain we know about in the "air" world.

....Regardless, you can easily beat it  if you know how to,  in a variety of ways involving food treatment, temperature raise,  or at worst for non eating fish you can treat the water. You can even proactively treat it with the right size of pellet food soaked in solution of 3% water and magnesium sulphate which you can cheaply buy from the pharmacy....Scientifically proven Mg sulfphate digested internally at this concentration kills spironucleus vortens. The food needs to just absorb the solution, not be drowned in it......You feed the fish for 5 days twice a day....So throwing hexamita as an example has nothing to do with discus..It has to do with species of fish, susceptibility, general health, origin of purchase, fish keeping habits, etc.. I do agree though that discus and majority of cichlids are the most susceptible to it. Its nothing to do with soil though....I first encountered this while keeping guppies in a plantless tank with gravel(bought new guppies)..It was a nasty learning curve for me....When you don't know what the hell is going on...

In my opinion, discus carry the parasite( so do many fish) and this thing does not strike healthy fish, but stressed fish, like fish being moved from tank to tank, transported fish, bullied fish, fish in bad water quality, etc...In fact, in my opinion, healthy fish's immune system just fights off hexamita...This does not mean one should not try to eliminate it once and forever...easily....otherwise it keeps creeping up on you........


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## JSeymour (4 Feb 2017)

sciencefiction said:


> I have never kept discus but I have quite the experience with hexamita and the specific parasites causing it,  and all type of ways of treating it...It needs a host such as fish. It can be transmitted via feces and accumulated detritus but it being in soil or being prevalent in soil tanks is just a speculation.....I think not....
> 
> ....Regardless, you can easily beat it  if you know how to,  in a variety of ways involving food treatment, temperature raise,  or at worst for non eating fish you can treat the water. You can even proactively treat it with the right size of pellet food soaked in solution of 3% water and magnesium sulphate which you can cheaply buy from the pharmacy....Scientifically proven Mg sulfphate digested internally at this concentration kills spironucleus vortens. The food needs to just absorb the solution, not be drowned in it......You feed the fish for 5 days twice a day....So throwing hexamita as an example has nothing to do with discus..It has to do with species of fish, susceptibility, general health, origin of purchase, fish keeping habits, etc.. I do agree though that discus and majority of cichlids are the most susceptible to it. Its nothing to do with soil though....I first encountered this while keeping guppies in a plantless tank with gravel...It was a nasty learning curve for me....When you don't know what the hell is going on...



I guess I should have said it is spread most commonly through contaminated soil, typically by birds. Soil is not required for its presence. Being easily treated really isn't the point, nor was the particular organism. There is a whole host of bacteria, fungi, and protozoa commonly found in soil that are infectious to both the animals we keep, as well as ourselves. Sometimes the treatments available are not safe for everyone exposed. The "fresher" the organics in the soil, the higher the risk. It can be a very rewarding risk, but I personally would risk a tank full of discus, a fish noted for disease sensitivity and for not eating medicated foods, when safer and more beneficial choices are available, such as mineralized soil. There are always exceptions of course, but when answering questions online, I tend go with the safer recommendation.

All my opinion.


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## sciencefiction (4 Feb 2017)

JSeymour said:


> when safer and more beneficial choices are available, such as mineralized soil.



What does mineralized or non-mineralized soil has to do with it?

You reckon hexamita comes from birds? You're are suggesting a complex life cycle here. Hexamita is simple,  transmitted from fish to fish majorly.....It does not need any intermediary. It does not stay alive without a host.

What you're not taking into account is that there is a whole lot of micro fauna in the fish themselves, and in us humans too, and in animals, essential to our well being.....All of of it is connected and part of a bigger picture. We humans are told to think "outside the box" but we all live in a box(call it a big universe if you like)  with everything interconnected...A vitamin deficiency tablets today can cure you, tomorrow they can lead to health deterioration because one suppresses another. It works just the same in a small ecosystem such as a fish tank.


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## JSeymour (4 Feb 2017)

sciencefiction said:


> What does mineralized or non-mineralized soil has to do with it?
> 
> You reckon hexamita comes from birds? You're are suggesting a complex life cycle here. Hexamita is simple,  transmitted from fish to fish majorly.....It does not need any intermediary. It does not stay alive without a host.



The post is about what should the OP mix with peat moss for a great soil in a discus tank. My recommendation was loam, a naturally mineralized soil. As loam is harvested normally several feet below the surface, there is a lower risk of introduced pathogens. Once again the exact pathogen could be anything, not necessarily Hexamita.

Hexamita has very simple life cycle, infect another organism, fish, bird mammal, it doesn't care. But in the forest, the place where a person would collect forest soil(the soil the OP wanted to use), it is typically spread by birds because that's where many live and because they can travel distances quickly and easily.


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## sciencefiction (4 Feb 2017)

I value your opinion JSemour although it may not have sounded like in my previous posts.  And what you say does sound plausible to me. But hexamita is not something to be feared in fish. Lack of knowledge of treatment options and how to is. Hexamita can and does come with certain new fish your introduce to a tank, not with a soil tank of any kind...Keep in mind all bare discus tanks that have never ever seen a substrate and still battle hexamita everyday to this day. ....Hexamita is a very well reserched and documented parasite, and its treatable. Other than that there are different types of pathogens. Highly contagious and fast killing ones and ones that do positive work in 80% of the times until we slack on fish upkeep...


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## JSeymour (4 Feb 2017)

The post isn't about disease treatment, there is a whole forum elsewhere for that. Forget I mentioned Hexamita. The type of pathogen does not matter.

Do you have an opinion on a soil choice to mix with peat moss?


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## sciencefiction (4 Feb 2017)

You brought up hexamita as a reply and I responded to it. if the turn of events does not suit now, it's entirely due to both of us......But if you read carefully through the entire thread prior between the lines, including your previous posts, its about preventing discus diseases....We're adults. We can read.colourful intentions presented in black and white.



JSeymour said:


> Do you have an opinion on a soil choice to mix with peat moss?



No,I don't have a strong opinion on soil.  I always used plain soil from the garden centre....the cheapest one, the one without any additives  but it may contain peat naturally as all soil bought here does...


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