# JBL CO2/PH computer



## Hoskins (20 Nov 2008)

Looks like I am getting one of these for Christmas to add to my JBL CO2 system.

Has anyone any experience with these?

I am also a reefer and use a Calcium reactor with a PH controller.

Therefore I have similar experience with marines but the CO2/PH computer looks to be much more comprehensive.


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## GreenNeedle (20 Nov 2008)

you will be hard pressed to find anyone in planted that will recommend a ph controller for using with CO2!!!  It makes the CO2 unstable due to switching on/off so we don't use them.  There are one or two people that do but if you take that one or two as a percentage of all the members that is about the best recommendation of wether to use one!!

It is just like going from unstable DIY to then spending money on stable pressurised and then spending more money to make the stable pressurised unstable again.  May as well just use DIY ;(

AC


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## LondonDragon (20 Nov 2008)

You will be better off with a drop checker and selonoid valve


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## Dan Crawford (20 Nov 2008)

LondonDragon said:
			
		

> You will be better off with a drop checker and selonoid valve


I'd have to agree and it's a fraction of the cost. 

Andy Mac's tank at TGM is run on a PH controller so maybe they will chime in with their experiences....


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## Hoskins (20 Nov 2008)

Strangely enough that is where I saw it in use.

I appreciate that you can get excellent results with the most basic of kit but where my time at home can be irratic I have found that automation with my reef was the way to go and I am expecting to mirror this with my planted tank. The chemistry is obviously very different but stability I expect to be the key.

I am a bit puzzled with the comment of instability with the CO2 being switched on and off but if the PH is kept constant surely so will the CO2 level.

I am probably wrong and no where near as much experience with FW as I have with SW but always learning.

I have only recently met the guys at TGM but the information that I have picked up from them so far has turned my tank from just about surviving to flourishing and they dont give you the 'hard sell' effect either.


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## LondonDragon (20 Nov 2008)

Have a look at this thread, Clive (cegepedia) goes into detail regarding PH Controllers.

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3547&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=ph+controller

Hope that helps 

Automating the selonoid valve you just have to buy a switch plug for it


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## Themuleous (20 Nov 2008)

Hi and welcome to the forum 

To be honest, pH controls are just not necessary.  Whether they work or not, you simply don't need one.  Spend the money on something that is necessary, like better lighting.

Sam


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## Ed Seeley (20 Nov 2008)

You want stable CO2 levels in the tank while plants are photosynthesising and that means pumping in a stable bubble rate of CO2 just before and during the light is on at least.  A pH controller uses fluctuating CO2 levels to manipulate the pH levels to keep that stable.  pH in the planted tank is pretty inconsequential.  Keep the TDS stable and the CO2 level stable, add enough ferts and everything will be fine - hopefully...


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## Hoskins (20 Nov 2008)

Themuleous said:
			
		

> Hi and welcome to the forum
> 
> To be honest, pH controls are just not necessary.  Whether they work or not, you simply don't need one.  Spend the money on something that is necessary, like better lighting.
> 
> Sam



Aleady sorted the lighting and filtration as I realise how important it is in my reef.


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## Hoskins (20 Nov 2008)

Dan Crawford said:
			
		

> LondonDragon said:
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Actually thanks very much but you dont know what I already have etc. I am glad to say that reefers have more respect and take the time to find out. And what if TGM 'chime in' as you so nicely put it. Maybe in future I will not bother with this forum if that is the sort of response someone gets.


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## Goodygumdrops (20 Nov 2008)




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## LondonDragon (20 Nov 2008)

Hoskins said:
			
		

> Actually thanks very much but you dont know what I already have etc. I am glad to say that reefers have more respect and take the time to find out. And what if TGM 'chime in' as you so nicely put it. Maybe in future I will not bother with this forum if that is the sort of response someone gets.


I guess he was trying to say share their experiences! Not sure what you took the word "chime" to be!!


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## Hoskins (20 Nov 2008)

LondonDragon said:
			
		

> Have a look at this thread, Clive (cegepedia) goes into detail regarding PH Controllers.
> 
> http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.ph ... controller
> 
> ...



What I was refering to was that you are all to quick to make recommendations without finding out the facts. I already have a solenoid valve and a timer and for that matter MH lighting that someone else suggested I should upgrade. I dont have any problems with my tank, algae or otherwise. I just need to incorporate a system that will stop the tank from overdosing when I am away, which is my greatest worry and has been experienced by some others.

Before diagnosing listen to the symptoms!


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## Ed Seeley (20 Nov 2008)

I don't really understand your response either Hoskins.  Dan was simply suggesting that a pH controller is unecessary so save your money.  If you already have one then to be honest the only use I would put it to is as a safety cut off set at a very low pH in case something went wrong with the CO2 or tank.  And it's an expensive bit of kit for a pretty much unneeded safeguard.

Most people who ask these kind of questions haven't bought anything yet so it seems safe to start with that.  If you already have those items then you're ahead of the game and that's great.


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## ceg4048 (21 Nov 2008)

Hoskins said:
			
		

> Dan Crawford said:
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Hoskins,
              The only way we could possibly know what you already have is if you tell us, otherwise we are forced to guess. Is it a certainty that all reefers have more respect? If one were to assess based on your response I'm certain the conclusion would be just the opposite. Members have taken the time to help you by responding to your request for information. Several experienced members have clearly advised you that a pH controller is an unnecessary expense so that if you had not already purchased the unit (which you vaguely alluded to in your original post) then the idea was that you could save money. That sounds pretty helpful as well as respectful.

It was also clearly pointed out to you why a pH controller was unnecessary. The science and technology of the controller does not lend itself to CO2 stability and it should be clear by now that the pH/KH/CO2 relationship on which the controller is based does not function correctly in a planted tank therefore the controller will vary the injection rate which means CO2 concentration level variance. It may not have been explained to you that there are certain algae which bloom in response to the CO2 instability of which the controller is susceptible. These members have vast experience regarding this issue and they have dealt with the painful reality of algal blooms due to poor CO2. They sought to spare you the expense and pain by offering their advice and yet you seem to be of the opinion that because you have reefers experience and because TGM have a controller, the advice given to you here is somehow invalidated.

Please allow me to clarify a few things.


> I appreciate that you can get excellent results with the most basic of kit but where my time at home can be irratic I have found that automation with my reef was the way to go and I am expecting to mirror this with my planted tank. The chemistry is obviously very different but stability I expect to be the key.


This rational is called a "mind set" as there is nothing automatic about a planted tank with the possible exception of algal blooms. A basic kit is actually can be a more reliable kit. A solenoid that simply turns ON and then OFF is much more accurate and stable than a controller which has been discussed ad nauseum. This is not to say that one cannot be successful using a controller, just that it's unnecessary and more costly than our proven basic alternatives.



> I am a bit puzzled with the comment of instability with the CO2 being switched on and off but if the PH is kept constant surely so will the CO2 level.


 It should be clear by now that stable pH in a planted tank does not necessarily equate to stable CO2. 



> I am probably wrong and no where near as much experience with FW as I have with SW but always learning.


Correct!



> I have only recently met the guys at TGM but the information that I have picked up from them so far has turned my tank from just about surviving to flourishing and they dont give you the 'hard sell' effect either.


TGM is one of our popular and valued sponsors and if you chose to ignore the advice on this forum because it does not appeal to you, and to converse only with them, well, then that is certainly your prerogative. If you wish to contribute to this forum however it would be appreciated if you could demonstrate a bit  of reefers respect to our other members.

Cheers,


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## Dusko (21 Nov 2008)

I work for a Zoo Shop in Sweden and encounter ignorance all the time    (no hard feelings)
I have had and still look after SW tanks and I can tell you one thing;
The only thing I can find similar to the FW Plant tank is the lights and the circulation. But when it comes to other things like NO3, PO4, CO2, pH, etc... they are two different worlds.

SW's holy trinity is KH/pH, Calcium, Magnesium (if flow is good)
in FW Planted is CO2, NO3, PO4 (if flow is good)

Most of my freshwater customers which report some sort of a problem state that their tank is totally OK and in fine balance   :? 
Of course I ask them how can they know that and 99% answer with; 
"I tested for pH and it is normal"    What is with this pH obsession ??? (this doesn't apply to u Hoskins)

It is hard to kill the myth which was carved into so many fish books and sites for the last few decades when it comes to freshwater tanks. pH is very important when it comes to breeding certain freshwater fish but in planted tanks NO.

I encourage Hoskins to use the pH controller and test for him self. He got some good info from UKAPS as guide lines to be able to recognise the problems if any occur.

Regards, Dusko


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## Hoskins (21 Nov 2008)

Thankyou for your input Dusko and your diplomatic way of putting things.

Please dont think that I disagree with the advice provided. It is the way in which it is provided.

Nowhere did I suggest that I had a problem, although I agree that nothing is perfect but I dont want to fix what isn't broke.

Even if the computer turns out to be an expensive safety device, that is fine.

I simply asked if anyone had any experience of this device. If not I will let you know how I get on.

The worse that can happen is that I go back to my existing methods (solenoid on a timer) which obviously works and use this to stop a disaster situtaion while I am away.

I like what I see at TGM and follow their lead. It obviously works on Andy Mac's tank but if it does not work out for me that is also fine, I can put it down to experience.

It is the same in the reef world, there are some devices that you cannot live without but until someone puts them in from of you, you are unaware of the alternatives. As an example when it comes to measuring SG beginners are provided with a hydrometer but later on they discover the refractometer which IMO is much more acurate and easier to use. Other than a refractometer being slightly more expensive I cannot work out why anyone would consider a hydrometer.


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## Themuleous (21 Nov 2008)

Hoskins said:
			
		

> I simply asked if anyone had any experience of this device. If not I will let you know how I get on.



Please do!  Out of necessity and/or expense most people dont use pH controls.  If you find yourself with money to spend and decided to get one, I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on them.  At least when future people ask then I can pass on your experiences.

Sam


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## JohnC (1 Dec 2008)

hi,

interesting thread.

i actually have a jbl co2/ph controller thingy, and i have never read alot of the stuff about the issues with them until this thread.

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.ph ... controller

- was a very interesting read.

my experience with it was i initially blindly followed the setting instructions for 30ppm co2 and it wasnt enough, due to the very high levels of phosphates in my water messing up the chart. bought a drop checker, with some kh4, to go with it and just dropped the setting on the controller to about approx one point below tap water ph (7.2 to 6.3).

I still get a little bba though, but i have many other issues id like to fix in my tank before i could point directly at the co2 fluctuations (my flow rate is rubbish, tank is heavily stocked, lights are a little too low). my co2 comes on a couple of hours after lights come on usually, then goes off about 30 minutes after lights out, maybe a few short breaks during the day.

I suppose the supply would vary more if i had the supply set quicker or slower. I try not to waste co2. PH goes down to about 6.15 at night and up to 6.3 at the end of the day on the probes readout. drop checker always shows nicely green.

after reading the article linked i might consider dropping my set PH another 0.1 to achive the a more lime green test result and see if it helps my little bit of bba. 

saying that when i sort the rest of the tank issues to a level that i rule them out i will deffo come back here and post my final thoughts on ph controllers.

best regards,

john


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## JohnC (1 Dec 2008)

p.s The range the CO2 comes on when it hits the targetted ph, then stays on until the ph has dropped another 0.5 of a point, so by setting your bubble rate correctly you can just maintain a constant flow most of the time.


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## beeky (1 Dec 2008)

I think I posed a very similar question, possibly in the thread that was mentioned previously. I was under the illusion that if pH changes with CO2, then keeping a stable pH meant stable CO2. I think one of the points mentioned to me was that pH changes aren't immediate across the whole tank, so a controller could end up oscillating the pH and therefore the CO2. I agree though that if you can afford it, a good use of a controller is to prevent CO2 dump from a near exhausted bottle and gassing the fish which has happened to a number of people.


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## JohnC (2 Dec 2008)

beeky said:
			
		

> I think I posed a very similar question, possibly in the thread that was mentioned previously. I was under the illusion that if pH changes with CO2, then keeping a stable pH meant stable CO2. I think one of the points mentioned to me was that pH changes aren't immediate across the whole tank, so a controller could end up oscillating the pH and therefore the CO2. I agree though that if you can afford it, a good use of a controller is to prevent CO2 dump from a near exhausted bottle and gassing the fish which has happened to a number of people.



With my setup would the large drop in ph I use (7.2 to 6.3) be thereby beneficial to keeping the co2 constant. I.e. the ph controller only comes on and oscillates between a range of 0.5 or approx 7% of the total initial adjustment during the day. So even with the lag or lack of direct parity between the level of CO2 and ph in the tank the actual concentration of CO2 shouldn't vary during the day much beyond 32ppm or 28ppm from a base of 30ppm? Obviously the drop checker does have a lag itself but it does show constant green.

The flip side of this in my tank is my very poor flow rate (fluval 205 doesnâ€™t cut it) means that yes my CO2 and PH isnâ€™t constant around the whole tank so my controller is adjusting at the wrong times anyway.

Hmm.  Alot to fix me thinks.

Would the setup using the PH controller to protect from a CO2 dump work by placing a timer on the plug from the solenoid that attaches to the PH controller? 

Best Regards,

John


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## GreenNeedle (2 Dec 2008)

0.9ph is not a great drop CO2 wise.  Mine goes from 7.4 down to 6.4 (I have no Ph controller, this is from the same cheapo test kit as I use in my DC)

I would therefore assume that if you are setting yours at 0.9 difference that you aren't getting to 30ppm anyway!!!  Maybe wrong but thats my understanding.

I think what people mean when they talk about CO2 dumps is that if they set their controller to 1.1-1.2 below tank water Ph then if the bps increases from 2 to 20 when the bottle is empty the controller will stop it.

AC


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## vauxhallmark (2 Dec 2008)

Just to be clear, hijac, I assume when you say the controller switches at 0.5 of a point that you mean 0.05? Or is it really 0.5?

Thanks,

Mark


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## Ed Seeley (2 Dec 2008)

Bear in mind that you pH drifts around in any tank as other parameters change.  Your biological filter for starters is constantly acidifying the water.  As this changes your CO2 levels will change too.

To use a CO2 controller as a safety device you need to work out the bubble rate with the needle valve to give you 30ppm.  You then need to have this level running with no restriction by the pH controller and measure the pH level then set your pH controller to turn the CO2 off when the pH drops say another half a degree or more.  This should prevent a large amount of CO2 being released and over dosing the tank.  Please note though that the bubble rate (governed by adjusting the needle valve) will then govern the quantity of CO2 in your tank and the pH controller will only kick in in some big emergency.  I would also turn the CO2 off during the time the lights are off too using a simple timer on the solenoid.


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## JohnC (2 Dec 2008)

vauxhallmark said:
			
		

> Just to be clear, hijac, I assume when you say the controller switches at 0.5 of a point that you mean 0.05? Or is it really 0.5?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Mark



doh i mean 0.05

sorry, was up late last night driving back from london.


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## JohnC (2 Dec 2008)

Ed Seeley said:
			
		

> Bear in mind that you pH drifts around in any tank as other parameters change.  Your biological filter for starters is constantly acidifying the water.  As this changes your CO2 levels will change too.
> 
> To use a CO2 controller as a safety device you need to work out the bubble rate with the needle valve to give you 30ppm.  You then need to have this level running with no restriction by the pH controller and measure the pH level then set your pH controller to turn the CO2 off when the pH drops say another half a degree or more.  This should prevent a large amount of CO2 being released and over dosing the tank.  Please note though that the bubble rate (governed by adjusting the needle valve) will then govern the quantity of CO2 in your tank and the pH controller will only kick in in some big emergency.  I would also turn the CO2 off during the time the lights are off too using a simple timer on the solenoid.



makes good sense, i will adopt this during my big tank revamp in a month or so.


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## Ed Seeley (2 Dec 2008)

hijac said:
			
		

> Ed Seeley said:
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I don't think the pH controller is necessary at all though.  I only use a solenoid on a timer on three tanks and I've never had a CO2 dump yet.  I'd only use it if you already have it and then use a drop checker with 4dKH water in to make sure your CO2 stays at 30ppm.


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## willjones (9 Dec 2008)

Hi Hoskins, I'm not massively experienced at all but I have set up a planted tank with and without a pH controller for several months each. 
Using a pH controller has made no perceptible difference in my aquarium, although I can see how a pH controller could be useful in a different set up.

In my set up, I don't use a reactor, the co2 bubbles are released into the intake of my filter at a rate of about 10 per min for a 200L, fairly well planted tank. I previously used a pH controller, but this basically switched the co2 on when the lights came on, and switched the co2 off shortly after the lights went off. Once I'd worked out the bubble rate (using the co2 indicator solution), the pH controller became redundant. I think this happens because the rate of co2 diffusion in my set up is modest, so it doesn't bring down the pH that drastically. However, if you're using a co2 reactor with a higher rate of co2 diffusion, I would imagine there is a higher risk of co2 overdosing, and I would speculate that there could be more of a role for a pH controller. 

Also, I know this is going to be controversial but... the much acclaimed co2 indicator, after initially setting up, I don't find that useful!
I find that it gradually changes colour over several days, even when I know the conditions in the tank are unlikely to have changed, it always starts off yellow, then after a day goes green, then blue. It's not leaking, I think the system could be flawed for a few reasons:
1. The principle relies on the fact that co2 is the only gas which can dissolve in the reageant solution - why can't other gases such as hydrogen sulphide do this? Even if present in small quantities this could change the pH of the reageant solution.
2. Molecules don't only move by vapourisation and dissolving, they can also move by brownian motion, so bascially liquids can get across to the reageant solution too. I don't know alot about this so I'm prepared to be contradicted by someone knowledgeable, but I'm just speculating that this is possible. 
I would say, once you get a feel for how to run your co2 using a combination of pH monitoring and a co2 indicator, and your set up is stable, you can probably abandon both!
Thoughts?


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## GreenNeedle (9 Dec 2008)

On the first point the assumption is normally made that when someone buys a Ph controller with their kit that they have gone for the works.  Highlight et al.  In a highligh tank where CO2 stability is much more necessary then there will be swings of a up to a point during the day.

With the drop checker I am by no means someone who acclaims the CO2 indicator.  I am however one who uses two for the reason of being able to see the levels 'cheaply'.

I can't understand why yours starts at yellow and then slowly comes down through to blue.  It should always start at blue with 4dKH and bromo blue.  The reason we use 4dKH is because it is a known reference and after 2-3 weeks we empty rinse and refill in case of contaminants.

It should change colour over several hours rather than days.  If so then something is not right with or within  the DC.

I don't think anyone can say the system is flawed as it has been used for a fair few years succesfully now and was never supposed to be highly accurate, hence being called an indicator.

As for the other points I am no scientist so someone else will have to give 'real' responses to these but:

I don't see any reason why other gaseous substances can't pass through into the reagent.  What works for one should work for all here I suppose.  I would say though that Hydrogen Sulphide should be in such low concentrations within a tank otherwise there is a much bigger problem that you need to worry about than the drop checker.  I guess small quantities could change the Ph though and therefore this point is for someone else to answer 

I remember something about Brownian Motion in schol and though it was something to do with heat.  With the heat within the drop checker and tank water all being equalised after a short while I would've though that this wouldn't occur.  Is Brownian motion the one where hot water rises and cold water sinks?  If so then you have solved the nutrient distribution due to poor flow problem as we can now just heat the lower half of the tank and chill the top half and let brownian motion distribute the nutrient for us   Again I am no scientist and this is a question for someone else.  Is brownian motion the smoke one? I can't remember science was never one of my faves.

As for the final part.  Yes once someone has the feel for it they could in theory abandon both the controller and the DC but why?  I never had a controller anyway and a DC costs so little to run that if working properly (changing by the hour) then it is surely a cheap safety feature that is pointless to abandon.  Just for you to see here is a timeline of mine showing how quickly (at longest) they should change from fresh solution (bright blue 11am) to lime green (9pm):






Hope this helps a little.

AC


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## Ed Seeley (9 Dec 2008)

Brownian motion is just the random erratic movement of molecules and particles such as dust and smoke.  I don't see how it applies to drop checkers at all.

Some water (and other things in the tank water) will of course end up in the drop checker solution, but only tiny amounts and this is one reason why it's a good idea to replenish the solution every few weeks.  This is evaporation and as the gaseous space inside a drop checker is an enclosed vapour lock then after a short period evaporative equilibrium will be reached and so the net evaporation should be 0 from drop checker and tank into the drop checker.  This balance will be reached with other chemicals that are capable of evaporating or coming out of solution.  

Drop checkers work very well for our purposes as the main item that affects pH in the drop checker solution is CO2 that is very rapid to go in and out of solution.


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## GreenNeedle (9 Dec 2008)

so Brownian motion was the smoke one then.  I shall try to remember that. lol

AC


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## Hoskins (11 Jan 2009)

Hi All

The computer has now been installed for 2 and a half weeks. First observation / benefit is that prior to installing I was making daily tweeks to my needle valve to keep the CO2 injection in the 'sweet spot' without gasing the fish. Now I input the tank water dkh to the computer and it calculates the ideal ph and keeps it there. I have left the flow from the needle valve set around where it was and therefore the computers solenoid only cuts in around 2-3 times a day. Which proves that too much gas was being used.

During this period I have left the drop checker in place to make sure that I have not made any mistakes which stays constantly green.

I agree that it is an expensive solution but gives me the peace of mind that when I am away not too much gas will be injected and wipe out my livestock.


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## baron von bubba (27 Mar 2009)

i'm quite startled after readin the whole of this thread!
A question was asked, the op didnt like the answer got upset an then didnt take on board anything that was said!

The op didnt prove at all that too much co2 was present previous to to ph controller, but more than likely "proved" that using a ph controller "by the book" does not in fact give enough co2! 

Yes, the controller tells you a ph value and yes that value changes as you add co2.

It does not however account for other acids that will skew the ph reading. This alone sets the co2 levels wrong!
Also it is a mistake to assume your kh is exactly the value you've read from the test kit.

So, if the 2 variables, ph and kh that are bein used are almost certainly not correct, then how on earth can you use those 2 things to get your 30ppm of co2?

Also i would imagine the op is leavin the controller on all through the night, so a highly possible scenario would be that a short while before lights on, the low limit on the ph controller is reached and co2 is cut off, the lights come on and until the ph has risen to the other "trigger" point, co2 will be low and not bein properly supplied at a crucial time!


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## Hoskins (27 Mar 2009)

I also use a timer as I would without the computer therefore the solenoid is closed 1 hour efore light out and opened 1 hour before lights on.

As a cross check I also use a BC and remains lime green. Therefore the computer keeps the levels in the correct range without the worry that I could overdo especially when I am away or when the CO2 bottle gets low.

Works very well for me and at TGM but everyone has an opinion, which is questionable if you dont have one to test.


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## baron von bubba (28 Mar 2009)

i do have one! 
which is why i read the post in the first place.
i thought initialy it was the thing to have, nice high techy bit of kit and besides i got it dirt cheap! ;0)

but the more i thought about it, the more i realized that they had big limitations, mine possibly more than yours i believe, the denerrle ph controller turns off at 0.1 below and turns on at 0.1 above the set value, which WILL cause fluctuations in co2 levels that otherwise wouldn't have been present therefore could actually be something that created more problems than it solved.

like the point raised in previous post, that you may have since realized as you currently turn it off at night.
its also something extra that could malfunction when your not there to keep an eye on it! 
the probes obviously need regular calibration (another place where errors could occur) plus replacement and they are not cheap.

i'm just putting my opinion across, because it may safe someone a lot of money!!! :0)
if i'd have paid 200 odd quid for this thing i would not have been at all happy when i realized that they serve very little purpose!!


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## Ed Seeley (28 Mar 2009)

baron von bubba said:
			
		

> i'm just putting my opinion across, because it may safe someone a lot of money!!! :0)
> if i'd have paid 200 odd quid for this thing i would not have been at all happy when i realized that they serve very little purpose!!



It's not that they don't serve any purpose, it's just that they monitor and measure something that isn't important (IMHO) in a planted tank.  What you want are stable CO2 levels rather than stable pH levels and unfortunately a pH computer fluctuates CO2 levels to gain a stable pH.

If you have a pH computer then simply set it to act as a safety switch that will switch off the CO2 if you get a drop of significantly more than your usual tank conditions.


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## Hoskins (28 Mar 2009)

I agree. As I have been saying all along I basically leave my bubble rate at the original level and therefore the integral solenoid rairly stops the flow but if I make any changes and I am going to be away for a few days I know that when I come back my fish will be safe.

If I did not have the computer the only way to be safe would be to underdose which IMO would be more detrimental to the plants.

However I also agree if I was at home more I could live without the computer and get good results but I dont have time on my hands and this gives me peace of mind.


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## aaronnorth (28 Mar 2009)

You are more likley to gas your fish before the pH drop will do any harm.


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## Hoskins (28 Mar 2009)

The PH drop will turn the gas off so I dont understand your point.


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## aaronnorth (28 Mar 2009)

Hoskins said:
			
		

> The PH drop will turn the gas off so I dont understand your point.



say if you didnt have the computer... Injecting CO2 causes the pH to drop, and CO2 levels rise. Before the pH gets dangerously low (ie. <5.5pH) the CO2 will already be at 40ppm+ and your fish will be gassed and killed from the CO2 level, not the pH level.

So in affect, there is no need to be wary of the pH dropping to much, hence no need for the computer.

Does that make sense?

Thanks.


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## baron von bubba (28 Mar 2009)

no, not really! ;0)

the ph controller reacts pretty quickly, unlike a drop checker! so it'd be fine as lone as the .1 drop needed to turn it off was still within "safe" limits.

i have been wandering how much the ph in the tank was influenced by organic acids etc, so, as a little test last night i left out a cup of tap water (that my tank is obviously filled with) and a cup of tank water.

i measured both with my ph probe today.
tap water was 7.82 
tank water 7.68
now both would have had the same levels of co2 present, so that kinda proved to me what i've recently been told and that is not to use the ph/kh/co2 chart as being accurate!


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## Hoskins (28 Mar 2009)

aaronnorth said:
			
		

> Hoskins said:
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I appreciate that its not the ph that kills but the level of CO2 but although not directly linked there is a correlation between the two. The other point is that my ph does not drop below 6.33 with a kh of 2 so that my co2 levels could not get into the dangerous range.


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## JohnC (12 May 2009)

Hi,

After using this PH controller for the last year and a bit on my main tank the probe finally broke putting forward my intended removal of it from the tank.

Before the controller had only been putting on the CO2 in a burst for a couple of hours a day with the drop checker showing green most of the time.

I just took out the ph controller and directly connected the solinoid to the timer on my small light for 9 hours constant a day. Turned down the CO2 a touch to allow a nice lime green colour to light green transistion during the day.

Result...

The tiny amount of remaining algae i had is dissapearing, the tank is pearling it's ass off like it never has before, half way through the light cycle. Fish are loving it. Plants are loving it. I wish id taken it off a year ago.

Best Regards,

John

p.s sorry for the spelling, i'm a touch drunk.


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## LondonDragon (12 May 2009)

hijac said:
			
		

> p.s sorry for the spelling, i'm a touch drunk.


Does this mean we can't take your review seriously either???


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## JohnC (12 May 2009)

LondonDragon said:
			
		

> hijac said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just a touch drunk.   

Sober now and i'll stand by my comments.


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## aaronnorth (12 May 2009)

hijac said:
			
		

> LondonDragon said:
> 
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cool


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## davidcmadrid (24 Jun 2009)

Ouch, 

I have been reading this thread and just figured out i have an expensive ph meter but not something that really does my planted tank any good ( Sera ph controller ). I also read Tom Barrs post http://www.barrreport.com/articles/...2-indicators-why-how.html?highlight=test+kits and now understand. I remember when  i dosed the tank the other night the PH controller within moments turned of the co2 ( i remember thinking i wonder if these chemicals are effecting PH). 
Jeesh the learning curve feel very steep but i wish to once again express my gratitude for this site and all the contributers. 

On a side note my tank looks like a bit of a jungle as i just bought about 20 plants and " threw " them in semi arranged. My wife being used to the old tank ( 3 token plants ) is like " Wow , stop worrying about it i think it looks great " ) so i pointed her to this site and some of your tanks and she was like get crackin ! 

Cheers.


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## arty (18 Jun 2010)

Hello. Ph controller not so bad  , but need proper dropchecker even 
1) Gives good monitoring 24/7
2) Without controller If big water volume and high flow, good water surface movement is very very hard gain necessary amount co2 when lights go on(cause algeas, ph swings e.g.)

Best Option - personaly for me
400L tank
controller 24/7
setup on  6.95(this point reach only sometimes in night time, maybe twice)
 180 bubles/min constant rate and ph controller always under 6.95 in daytime and swing are only +-0.01 
just need find proper constant bubble caunt and proper  reach limit in ph.
In daytime if proper adjusted ph controller gives co2 non stop.
If will be any stop in daytime then You get co2/ph swing and if cheap china controller then realy big swing.
So need constant bubble rate adjusted.
For sample in my situation, If  difference in setup on limit 7.00 PH  and keeping same amount of bubbles then swing in daytime will be +-0.03 - 0.05
need proper bubble and ph  limit adjusting

Good Luck with adjusting.


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