# Celestial danios - one dead,and one looks unwell, please help.



## Abcdefg

Hi,

 I found a dead celestial danio this morning g and I'm not sure what to make of it, would any body have any guidance? 


I saw it on the way out last night, hanging around at the bottom of the tank, and only swimming now and then to another spot, seemed to be a prisoner to the flow.

It looked 'thin' in the way that the others don't. 




 

There is however another thin guy in there who doesn't look well:

-Doesn't eat
-doesnt move around much
-is about 40% of the size of the others, with no belly. (although I'm presuming that the male's are a bit smaller as there is some variation)

The one thing that I was wondering about is feeding.

I have been feeding jbl plankton pur and some tetra granules (I've forgotten which). However whilst feeding this morning I noticed that the general consensus from the danios is that they like to 'approach-food-and-be-next-to-it' rather than eat the stuff, I don't know whether this is because they where fed last night as well. 

There are 8 remaining danios from a batch of 9 that I added 13 days ago. They are the first and only fish in the 3 month old tank.

 I also have:
 5 cherry shrimp added at the same time as the danios.
 4 amanos (i did have 5 but one died 48 hours after adding), which have been in the tank for maybe 4 weeks. 

All other livestock apart from the thin danio seems OK. 

Nitrates 10 to 25 ppm
Nitrites = 0

Kh 1-2
Gh 6-7
pH? (I get different readings from different kits) 




Is this a one off? Or a feeding issue? Or is there something else wrong? 

Thanks


----------



## Aqua360

sounds like parasites are a possibility, I treat all of my fish as standard with praziquintel; otherwise id try to reduce your nitrates if possible


----------



## zozo

I oftenly see young fish shaped like that in many LFS, last time i looked at the celestial danios almost all of them had it. Also rasboras have this a lot, actualy if you look closer it occurs among almost all popular very small aquarium fish.. I had more than a few like that when i bought (ordered) about 30 boraras. All where rather pale and some having this sunken belly or concave shape all died, the discolored ones almost all of them too. Total loss 75%. What's left is round shaped colorfull and already healthy for over a year.. It could be an internal parasite, but personaly i more have the hunge this is a deformity cuased by inbreeding and they are the weak misshaped ones from the nest. Since these small fish are so popular and bred and shiped around by the hundreds for a few pennies a piece it is rather difficult and even less lucrative to screen and seperate the healthy from the weak. They obviously do not care and sell them anyway, the majority of people doesn't know.

The best you can do is, do not order them and do not buy what you can't see or pick yourself. Look very closely at the fish in the lfs.. If you see a lot of misshaped or pale color, do not buy them, do not believe the fairytale that the color will enhance when comming to rest and being fed properly. They are stressed out and probably malnurished and or inbred by the breeder. Than chances that the majority dies are rather high.. Keep looking and find an lfs that has a healthy batch in good shape and color. There is no valid reason for a fish being stressed in the lfs display tank, if they are there is something seriously wrong with the lfs or their supplier, say it and walk away and look elsewhere.

Educate yourself to recognise fish in bad shape, now you learned the hard way unfortunately. Read about fish diseases before you buy any, do not wait till they get sick. Anyway Skiny, deformed (concave shape), sunken stomag, pale color, blury or excessive bulging eyes, pinched fins, heavy breathing, skin/fin damage are a few obvious ones. Spine deformation like that poor little bugger in your pick could also could be cause by bad water quality, long term lower nitrite and ammonia poissoning can cause it.

The smaller they are the harder and longer you have to watch the tank you want to buy them from.. Especialy these tiny fish, if they are already that skinny and if caused by internal parasites they are more likely already beyond any help. Every tank contains some parasites thats rather common and not a problem, healthy fish fight them off with their own immune system, most parasites prey on the weak and old.


----------



## castle

The first couple of weeks are the hardest. CPDs are very strong fish, soft through to hard water, they'll live and breed happily(?). but the only loses I've ever had have been int he first couple of weeks. Some of mine are a few years old now.

This looks like a female, but with such deformation it's hard to tell.

Celestial pearl Danio in small tanks with poor ratios can kill each other through bullying, chasing and breeding. The females will loose all appetite and die. Larger numbers dither this issue, but numbers such as 5 and less, especially with more males than females can be a really nasty environment (small tanks). I'm just putting that out there. You won't see any schooling with numbers less than 20; at least in a way that's impressive.

As for shop species, breeding stock isn't that bad these days, a lot of deformities are culled from what I can tell. I added 10 more CPD's to my main brood to broaden the gene pool, all from MA, and although they're still a little transparent for my tastes, they're coming on okay. What I find fascinating is watching the hierarchy in the tank, only two males are in full colour, the rest are all paler. Colour in CPDs isn't always very deep. tangent, sorry!

If you can, get some frozen blood worms, defrost a cube, roughly chop them (like a garlic clove) and give that a try, they love that stuff.

I don't think it's a parasite, though as zozo said, if it came in weak that's a strong possibility. Personally, I think it's died of shock.


----------



## Abcdefg

Aqua360 said:


> sounds like parasites are a possibility, I treat all of my fish as standard with praziquintel; otherwise id try to reduce your nitrates if possible



Thanks, can I ask, do you do this in a preventative way before or after adding to the tank?


----------



## Abcdefg

zozo said:


> Educate yourself to recognise fish in bad shape, now you learned the hard way unfortunately. Read about fish diseases before you buy any, do not wait till they get sick. Anyway Skiny, deformed (concave shape), sunken stomag, pale color, blury or excessive bulging eyes, pinched fins, heavy breathing, skin/fin damage are a few obvious ones. Spine deformation like that poor little bugger in your pick could also could be cause by bad water quality, long term lower nitrite and ammonia poissoning can cause it.
> 
> The smaller they are the harder and longer you have to watch the tank you want to buy them from.. Especialy these tiny fish, if they are already that skinny and if caused by internal parasites they are more likely already beyond any help. Every tank contains some parasites thats rather common and not a problem, healthy fish fight them off with their own immune system, most parasites prey on the weak and old.



Thanks zozo,

I  did have a look in the shop but obviously not for long enough, they where all active so I thought they would largely be ok. 

Would you advise treatment with anything (specific product and brand would be useful as I have shrimp in the tank, I was looking at 'esha 2000' is that the way to go?) ? I'm presuming that the thin one won't make it, but would like to help if possible, and would certainly like to prevent anything bad from spreading to other fish

Cheers


----------



## Abcdefg

castle said:


> The first couple of weeks are the hardest. CPDs are very strong fish, soft through to hard water, they'll live and breed happily(?). but the only loses I've ever had have been int he first couple of weeks. Some of mine are a few years old now.
> 
> This looks like a female, but with such deformation it's hard to tell.
> 
> Celestial pearl Danio in small tanks with poor ratios can kill each other through bullying, chasing and breeding. The females will loose all appetite and die. Larger numbers dither this issue, but numbers such as 5 and less, especially with more males than females can be a really nasty environment (small tanks). I'm just putting that out there. You won't see any schooling with numbers less than 20; at least in a way that's impressive.
> 
> As for shop species, breeding stock isn't that bad these days, a lot of deformities are culled from what I can tell. I added 10 more CPD's to my main brood to broaden the gene pool, all from MA, and although they're still a little transparent for my tastes, they're coming on okay. What I find fascinating is watching the hierarchy in the tank, only two males are in full colour, the rest are all paler. Colour in CPDs isn't always very deep. tangent, sorry!
> 
> If you can, get some frozen blood worms, defrost a cube, roughly chop them (like a garlic clove) and give that a try, they love that stuff.
> 
> I don't think it's a parasite, though as zozo said, if it came in weak that's a strong possibility. Personally, I think it's died of shock.



Thanks Castle, much apreciated

just to clarify, I now have 8, (presumably soon to be 7) in a 50 litre tank with lots of hiding places, I'm not sure of the ratios of male and female. I can try to get some pictures and work it out. 

would you advise getting some more? and trying to get all females?


I was hoping to add a different species of small fish at some point  though so was really looking for a practical amount of celestial danios that wouldn't be unhappy, but would leave room for another species.

Thanks again


----------



## castle

Is it a cube, or long? I'd stick with those for now, just in case it's a problem with your tank/parasites.As for tank mates, CPDs are best at around 22 celcius, so they're a little tricky to be in a community.


----------



## MadMike

From what I've researched, having seen a similar occurrence myself, it's called "chronic wasting disease". It can be caused by any number of things, one of which is an internal bacterial infection. 

I have not had any success saving affected fish, however I have not had any more than one occurrence in a school of 6 Danios. It has totally bypassed the other 5.

My only recommendation is to keep up with weekly water changes and check your tank parameters regularly (temp, chemistry etc.) and get any dead fish out as soon as possible to prevent it spreading. 

Sent from my D5503 using Tapatalk


----------



## Abcdefg

castle said:


> Is it a cube, or long? I'd stick with those for now, just in case it's a problem with your tank/parasites.As for tank mates, CPDs are best at around 22 celcius, so they're a little tricky to be in a community.



the tank is 45 x 31 x 36cm , I have the water at 23.5 at the moment, if there aren't any deaths over the next 4 weeks for example, would it be advisable to get more?

cheers


----------



## Abcdefg

MadMike said:


> From what I've researched, having seen a similar occurrence myself, it's called "chronic wasting disease". It can be caused by any number of things, one of which is an internal bacterial infection.
> 
> I have not had any success saving affected fish



Thanks Mike, 

So, did you treat with some kind of antibiotics? even if the thin one is doomed I'd like to help the others avoid problems.

Cheers


----------



## zozo

Abcdefg said:


> Would you advise treatment with anything (specific product and brand would be useful as I have shrimp in the tank, I was looking at 'esha 2000' is that the way to go?) ? I'm presuming that the thin one won't make it, but would like to help if possible, and would certainly like to prevent anything bad from spreading to other fish



Not me, i'm not the fish doctor you are looking for, it is much to difficult to diagnose via a picture in a forum. I'm just a enthousiast fish lover and learned over the years not to use medicine if it isn't 100% necessary and clear what you are treating. Some medicines can be more harmfull than the parasite or ilness you like to fight. As said every tank and probably fish containes a small amount of parasites, lurking and waiting latently present to attack a weak and old fish. Usualy when a lot of fish show severe infection it's a sign something is wrong in the tank making them all weak and susceptible.. Than treating is ok, but still need to figure out what more is wrong, keeping fish weak with bad husbandry or other mistakes than a treatment oftenly does more harm with its side effects than good.

Personaly, me also i only treat new arrivals with a mild dewormer.. For the rest a healthy stocked tank, should the same as in nature, deal itself with parasites and the sick and weak. Happens in nature too, a fish gets old or damaged by an attack, gets weak, attacked by parasites, it dies and it's carcass is eaten by other healthy fish without them getting sick at all. That's how it should work in an aquarium as well, preventively it is best to remove anything sick and dead.. But also this is not always the case with the tiny ones, i lost my fair share of fish over the years without short notice, only after a recount i noticed some missing. Some just die and get eaten within hours.. Don't ask me why or how, it happens..


----------



## Abcdefg

Ok, 

It's lunch so I'm off to the shop I got them from to look in the tank, and see it I can see any similar deformities etc. Then I suppose I'll take it from there. 

I still have a feeling I maybe should be looking in to giving them antibiotics, as it's more than one fish, I'd hate to see them go one by one over a week, rather than just giving them something as a precaution.


Thanks All,


----------



## MadMike

Abcdefg said:


> Thanks Mike,
> 
> So, did you treat with some kind of antibiotics? even if the thin one is doomed I'd like to help the others avoid problems.
> 
> Cheers


No, I try to avoid treatments as much as possible. Just try to make the water the best you can and watch your fish.

That said, Interpet sell an anti internal bacteria treatment. I have used this before without ill effects, but I'd still rather not use it. That's my personal opinion however.

I used anti fungus once and lost 3 cory catfish, one got stuck behind the heater which resulted in a huge ammonia spike and I ended up doing 5 water changes in 3 days to try to save the rest of my populous. I think the plants helped a lot with that one.

I swear by feeding cooked peas, skinned and mashed once a week. My fish love it and it's supposed to have a natural flushing effect for your fishies.

Sent from my D5503 using Tapatalk


----------



## Abcdefg

Just went to the shop where I bought the danios and had a look in the tank, there where certainly a few deformed fish in there with pronounced curved spines, perhaps one in 30. 

However they where more visibly deformed that either of my thin ones. The shop looked at the above picture and suggested perhaps a parasite, so they recommended and sold me a product with Flubendazole as the active ingredient.

maybe the fish where weak / stressed and succumbed to a parasite and it wont spread, but I'd like to be cautious.

I will do this cautiously tonight, however... the back of the pack says it's not safe for snails invertebrates or stingrays, I don't have any snails, so that's ok, and the shop said that they had used the same thing to treat their shrimp tanks so it should be safe.

'on the internet' the general consensus seems to be that Flubendazole is shrimp safe, so I'm presuming this will be ok, if I'm very careful not do overdose.

any thoughts on this treatment in particular?

Thanks


----------



## Abcdefg

MadMike said:


> I swear by feeding cooked peas, skinned and mashed once a week. My fish love it and it's supposed to have a natural flushing effect for your fishies



Thanks!, I will try this tomorrow, when hopefully they will be hungry again


----------



## Abcdefg

MadMike said:


> No, I try to avoid treatments as much as possible.



what would be the main disadvantages of using treatments? is it that they would mask problems with the tank and water quality? or that they have specific detrimental effects on the tank environment or inhabitants?

I don't mean in the sense that I'm thinking about blitzing the tank with all kinds of medications, but in my position I'm not sure what to do;

it's my first livestock in my first aquarium, I understand that losses could happen, but I'd like not to lose them all. 

I feel like I have been taking things patiently, and researching stuff, and I have had the tank running for 2 months with no livestock hoping to get things in a good place, I don't want to panic, but I don't want to sit by idle while fish die.

What process do people go through when they spot an unwell fish in their tank? (with the caveat that they only have one tank)

Thanks


----------



## zozo

One thing you can be 99% sure of  a fish with anatomical abnormality is beyond repair. A medication doesn't straighten a deformed spine back to shape. As said such an deformed spine can be the cause of long term poissoning with nitrite or ammonia (bad water quality), the fish will absorb this and it's muscles will cramp so severe it will deform it's body, very often to an extend it can not swim anymore. But it still can live quite some time like that.. Ofcourse it is hard to say, but it is best to assume that an animal deformed like that is most likely in pain and probably not eating well because it misserable and obviously loosing weight and getting sick and gets susceptible to parasitic or bacterial infections.. It's a domino effect not starting with an infection. In such a case, treating the infection wont help a deformed fish anymore.



Abcdefg said:


> what would be the main disadvantages of using treatments?


Also hard to say, read the descripton in the package it tells you what side effects you can expect.. And all meds are not tested on all fish sp. it always is a gamble. For example 2 years ago i bought a school of cory's and after a week they showed beeing sick, i looked with a microscope and i found Trichodina (external parasite) i went to the LFS and they gave me some stuff from Colombo "perhaps this will help", forgoten the active ingredient, but after doing some research before admistering it, fortunately, i found reports about this particular substance as poissones to catfish sp. So with using it i probably would have killed all the corys instead of helping them. Corydoras are catfish.

Anyhow i doubt your Danios are infected.. Read this 


> _ C. margaritatus_ to quickly become one of the most hyped fishes the hobby has ever known....
> 
> It’s also been subject to intensive commercial breeding and specimens with spots or blotches instead of stripes in the pelvic and anal fins or *morphological deformities* *are now common in the ornamental trade* (see images).
> 
> The other includes those in which anatomical development stops at a point where adult still resemble a larval form



Looks familiar?.. Perhaps, (most likely) yours are inbred weaklings too.. That's something you will not hear in the LFS, it doesn't sell..











http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/celestichthys-margaritatus/


----------



## MirandaB

I had a particularly bad experience with cpds earlier in the year and that finished it for me as they are just too weak and inbred these days.
Personally I would be extremely wary of any fish presenting wasting symptoms coupled with a bent spine and lethargy.
Mycobacteriosis (fish TB) is always in my mind whenever I see fish like this and while I don't wish to unduly alarm you it is something that you need to consider as a possibility.


----------



## MirandaB

I will add that whatever was wrong with my cpds,and the symptoms were similar,it did not respond to any meds I tried.
These included worming with eSHa NDX,eSHa 2000 and NT Labs anti internal bacteria so I had to make the difficult decision to euthanize the remaining stock


----------



## Abcdefg

zozo said:


> Looks familiar?.. Perhaps



i saw some like the bottom two in the shop, but I don't think mine looked that bad, so I'm still not sure if I should do the de-wormer or not...

I guess I never will know 100% (or even close) whether I should use the de wormer, if it where you would you wait for a third fish to show signs before committing to it?

Thanks very much for your help on this!


----------



## Abcdefg

MirandaB said:


> I had a particularly bad experience with cpds earlier in the year and that finished it for me as they are just too weak and inbred these days.
> Personally I would be extremely wary of any fish presenting wasting symptoms coupled with a bent spine and lethargy.
> Mycobacteriosis (fish TB) is always in my mind whenever I see fish like this



Thanks Miranda,

So presumably this would pass to the other fish, and possibly shrimp? I've quickly read some internet stuff, and it seems also to be transferable to humans... (hopefully with nothing serious resulting..) 

I guess i should stop starting siphons with my mouth? do folk usually worry about ingesting tank water? is it something I should be wary of. sorry to sound like a paranoid paula.



MirandaB said:


> I don't wish to unduly alarm you



I scare easily!


----------



## MirandaB

My apologies I really didn't mean to scare you 
Shrimp are not in any danger from fish diseases so there are no worries there! 
I would stop using the mouth start method for siphoning,it's not the best idea even with a healthy tank..yes I used to do it myself but after my disaster I stopped.
Hopefully it isn't mycobacteria but I'm a paranoid Paula about this disease,particularly as there has been virtually no research done in this country as to the incidence of it in tropical fish although there has been some in other countries.
Fingers crossed it's just this mysterious wasting disease that cpds seem prone to these days but do keep a close eye on the fish and water quality of course


----------



## darrensp

Best using a pump to remove tank water or I use the garden hose and turn the tap on and after a little minute of the I split the hose at the join and the water runs back out of the hose pulling the tank water out without any hassle or water in my mouth.


----------



## zozo

That's why treating fish is so difficult, it is very difficult to make a proper diagnose without the use of a microscope and many parasites and or bacteria have summular symptoms and require different treatment. That;s why broad spectrum meds are most popular in use, like Esha.. Not a bad thing to have it the med case, in case. But it actualy also invited to use it to soon.

Deworming a newly setup tank with new fish is never wrong, most dewormers are quite harmless, tho some can kill snails unwanted. Praziquantel is one of the least agresive.. Deworming is something you only have to do once if you do not feed live food from unreliable sources. Live food like that is always a risk. If a fish tank is maintained properly you do not need to worry that much.. You get more (bad) bacteria on your fingers with handling money, public doorgrips and banisters. When was the last time you got sick because of that? Actualy you should wash your hands every time you touched something like that.. And what do most poeple do? They wash their hands when comming from the toilet instead with the assumption they are dirtier than the toilets doorgrip they handled.. 

If you syphon use a smaller and longer hose like 1 metre x 10mm, it runs way slower and no need to get any tankwater in your mouth like that. It never happened to me.. If that happens you probably using a to short 12mm or 16mm hose runs the water faster than you can react to it..

The mycobacteria cuasing TB in fish can indeed be cuaght by us if we have wounds on or hands when sticking them in the tank.. But TB (and i mean the real one for us) can also be spread by the things i mentioned above.. This bacteria can survive for veri long in moist invironments outside a host.. 

Speaking of paranoia Paula.. A tiger, a bear and a chicken are sitting at a bar bragin a bit..
The bear says "When i roar all the surrounding mountains tremble, i cause avalanches daily!"
The tiger says "When i roar the whole jungle shakes in fear and leaves are falling"
The chicken laughs and says "When i sneeze, everybody in the world craps in their pants!"


----------



## Abcdefg

MirandaB said:


> My apologies I really didn't mean to scare you



No worries!  , it was partly in jest, but it's my first time having a tank and whilst it's been interesting and exciting, it's also been a process of becoming very, very worried about lots and lots of details.

I'll stop with the manual siphoning and find a grown up way to do it.

What I'm not sure about is what to do right now, seems like I can;

1: do nothing; wait to see if any of the others get sick

2: try to remove the sick one* and put it in a bucket with a heater and some prime and the de-wormer. and see what happens.

* I have unfortunately made a very convoluted hardscape that will make this difficult, I wanted to provide some places to hide. In retrospect I went too far 

3: treat the tank with the dewormer in case they could all become ill, and also probably treat the tank with an antibiotic.

I'm not sure which to do.

I'm conscious that the lady or gent who is ill might be suffering, in which case what's the humane thing to do? If I put it in a bucket, then it passes away, I wount know what the cause is as it won't exactly be a bump up in accommodation terms.


----------



## MadMike

Abcdefg said:


> what would be the main disadvantages of using treatments? is it that they would mask problems with the tank and water quality? or that they have specific detrimental effects on the tank environment or inhabitants?
> 
> I don't mean in the sense that I'm thinking about blitzing the tank with all kinds of medications, but in my position I'm not sure what to do;
> 
> it's my first livestock in my first aquarium, I understand that losses could happen, but I'd like not to lose them all.
> 
> I feel like I have been taking things patiently, and researching stuff, and I have had the tank running for 2 months with no livestock hoping to get things in a good place, I don't want to panic, but I don't want to sit by idle while fish die.
> 
> What process do people go through when they spot an unwell fish in their tank? (with the caveat that they only have one tank)
> 
> Thanks


I would use treatments, if I had a quarantine tank. I'm in exactly the same situation, where I have only one tank.

We have all been in this situation at one stage or another. Whether it's a new tank, or the first illness. My response depends on what I see.

If the fish dies without warning, remove carcass and test water. Change if necessary.

If the fish is lethargic and not feeding, I just watch it.

Otherwise if I have an outbreak, maybe I might need to consider treatment. One fish, I don't treat. Again, if I had a QT tank I would definitely treat individually. 

I started with a smaller tank, internal filter all the "came with it" things. As I've upgraded I've ended up with an external filter and plants and a UV steriliser to help prevent any diseases from getting a hold.

Using forums I've gained a lot of knowledge I use personally.

Sent from my D5503 using Tapatalk


----------



## sciencefiction

This is "wasting disease", very common to a lot of aquarium fish. There are 4 possible scenarios as far as I know which cause the fish to waste until it dies...

Least likely - bacterial but if it is, as mentioned previously, mycobacteria is not out of the question. In this case all fish will most likely perish early or later but for that external sores are also typical, so is deformed spine(like an s shape rather than from wasting).....different fish...different symptoms but it is not just an internal disease...and it can take up more than 6 months to show. Its untreatable....

Second least likely - tapeworms...typical to wild caught fish mostly because it needs an intermediary to spread....Fish bred in captivity are very unlikely to have those but its treatable with praziquantel. Prazi also treats some minor other parasites but not much.

Most likely - some sort of round worms or/and parasites. For round worms - Kusuri wormer plus sold in the UK. If just parasites, some are covered by the Kusuri wormer if the treatment is doubled but it also treats round worms infestations so I'd start with that to cover all fronts.  The most common parasite I know about and which I have encountered a lot, is called hexamita disease, caused by spironucleus parasite mostly. Its treatable with hex treatment of different kinds. New life spectrum sell hex shield food(from amazon) which is quite good but that's for fish that are still eating.

Someone mentioned bullying...bulling in a tank can trigger internal parasite infections but the fish was most likely already a carrier. Healthy and happy fish may fight it off so would not show visual signs. I'd treat the whole tank if I see the "skinny" disease" as above....

In the worst scenario, fish has both parasites and bacterial infection, it will probably die rather quickly...The bacterial infection is a secondary...

To sum it up, its most likely a type of worm or parasites. Treating for bacterial infection at this stage is unless one has tried all other 3 options, is a waste of time...


----------



## Archer

I truely can relate with this post. Thanks for info and please keep them coming as i myself is strugling with my danios


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Abcdefg

sciencefiction said:


> I'd treat the whole tank if I see the "skinny" disease" as above....



This is very helpful, thanks.

When I got back from work last night the skinny Danio was still alive and active comparatively (didn't seem any worse than in the morning).

So, I treated the tank with the de-wormer, which was in fact kusuri wormer plus, as you recommend.

This morning I think the skinny one is still alive, but it's tricky to tell as I have blacked out the tank for a day ( I read that flubenzadole was photo-degradable, and a 24 hour blackout was recommended. Maybe it will lower stress too if there's bullying?)

I'll take another peak tonight and a proper look tomorrow morning when I stop the blackout.

Even with only 8 in a small tank, it's so tricky to do a population count. Do they breed versions of these guys with numbers on the side?

Cheers!


----------



## Abcdefg

MadMike said:


> UV steriliser to help prevent any diseases from getting a hold.



Thanks, is this a worthwhile investment? How much of a 'must have' do you think it is? 

My tank is fairly planted, but it's a small volume of water, so presumably prone to all kinds of water quality issues. 

Thanks


----------



## MadMike

Abcdefg said:


> Thanks, is this a worthwhile investment? How much of a 'must have' do you think it is?
> 
> My tank is fairly planted, but it's a small volume of water, so presumably prone to all kinds of water quality issues.
> 
> Thanks


That is the million dollar question. I haven't seen any illness since I installed the UV steriliser, whether that can be attributed to the steriliser or not is practically impossible to answer. 

Water clarity improved though.

Sent from my D5503 using Tapatalk


----------



## Tim Harrison

I've had a very similar experience with Celestials as well...https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads...osterifolia-flowers.37490/page-20#post-459023
It's like Marcel says, they've been bred to within an nanometer of their genome, and have become susceptible to any number of diseases...Looking at your poor little fellow he was suffering from TB.


----------



## Abcdefg

MadMike said:


> That is the million dollar question. I haven't seen any illness since I installed the UV steriliser, whether that can be attributed to the steriliser or not is practically impossible to answer.
> 
> Water clarity improved though.
> 
> Sent from my D5503 using Tapatalk



i might read around a bit and look in to it, although I'd have to wait a few months, it's not the time of year to be spending money...


----------



## Abcdefg

Tim Harrison said:


> I've had a very similar experience with Celestials as well...https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads...osterifolia-flowers.37490/page-20#post-459023
> It's like Marcel says, they've been bred to within an nanometer of their genome, and have become susceptible to any number of diseases...Looking at your poor little fellow he was suffering from TB.



Thanks Tim, I guess I'll just have to see how they do. if it is TB is it something that the healthier fish will fend off?

Also, I notice from your thread that you look like you have, or had a radion (freshwater presumably), I have one too but I'm finding it pretty irritating in this style:

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/ecosmart-live-thumbs-down.37793/#post-475574

Can I ask what your experience with it has been? I'm hoping I'm just  missing a trick with it like it's bad on a mac in a certain browser or something, or there's a particular firmware version that works etc.

Thanks!


----------



## sciencefiction

Abcdefg said:


> hen I got back from work last night the skinny Danio was still alive and active comparatively



The skinny danio can recover with the right treatment(as previously said except for fish TB but I seriously wouldn't jump on that horse so fast)

If I find my old pictures...I'll show you an extremely skinny deformed platy that recovered to normal looking one, and lived a normal long live. She had hexamita. She could barely hold in the water flow when I started treatment...One thing to keep in mind is that for that fish it took 2-3 months to actually fully visually recover from the exhausted deformed body she had. And she never grew up to her potential size but it didn't really matter. For a platy she lived about 4 years old which is not too bad. She never stopped eating though even when sick..I treated via food only.

But I knew what she had exactly because she was not the first one..Hexamita is just very common in many fish, mainly cichlids and apparently not livebearers but it has spread..It's a slow working disease for some fish( I think they have immunity to it to an extent and the trigger is stress) and kills others in a week or so(Discus, Angels, dwarf cichlids)...

The stress could be just moving the fish from one tank to another or the fish shop to your home...never the less the fish must carry the parasite to succumb to it. So treatment is a must although some fish will never succumb to it in the same tank.The Kusuri wormer plus has an effect on it. After the recommended treatment. Do it for another week...Kusuri is safe for even sensitive young fish but not so for inverts such as snails and shrimp.

If it is round worms, it is actually a matter of one time treatment and not introducing any other fish. I think parasites are nastier...because some of them are normally harmless but turn pathogenic in the right environment for them, the wrong for the fish..Internal parasites is more difficult to treat in my opinion..It can re-occur..but once you know what worked the first time...its not difficult to remedy the next time...It took me months and even years to figure things out...after trial and error..


----------



## MadMike

Abcdefg said:


> i might read around a bit and look in to it, although I'd have to wait a few months, it's not the time of year to be spending money...


For your information, I have the allpondsolutions 9W unit. Other sterilisers are available.





It's a bit beefy, draws 12W. 12W over the course of a year is a menial amount of electric, whether you can justify it is up to you. 

It's not something I would rush out and buy, but it's a nice thing to have. 

The filament needs replacing every 6 months for sterilisation, 12 for purification. The way I see it, it may do nothing, but if it does help I'm pleased it's there.

Edit: as a side note, it probably wouldn't have helped in your situation.

Sent from my D5503 using Tapatalk


----------



## Abcdefg

T


sciencefiction said:


> The skinny danio can recover with the right treatment(as previously said except for fish TB but I seriously wouldn't jump on that horse so fast)



Thanks,

Unfortunately this one didn't make it, I found it dead on Saturday, and it had been that way long enough to grow a fine fuzz of long strands, I'm not sure whether the others may have fed on it before I found it. As it was hidden away under some hair grass, I did t spot it immediately.

I treated with the wormer plus last Thursday, but don't want to overdo it as there are shrimp in the tank as well.

I have also treated with esha 2000, which appears to be a broad antibiotic, started the course on Saturday - it's a three day course, not sure if I can overdose.

There are two more fish that seem like they have wasting, so I'm partly expecting them to die also, if they did this would bring the deaths to 4 out of nine.

Can I ask everyone;
- Is there anything else I could treat with? or is it just wait and see.

-What should I feed? I gave them some daphnia, and they appeared to enjoy them, also most fish are eating or at least attempting to eat. but the daphnia are arguably a bit large for these guys.

-should I give medication in food? Or medicated food? If so which brands and products are any good and does anybody have any tips for administering them?

- is this still a case of 'could be fish TB, could be parasites, could be anything' or now that I have treated with the wormer plus, can I be fairly sure that if it continues it is bacteriological.

- I don't suppose I can reasonably say that the fish must have been ill when I bought them can I? I don't know how long fish tb, takes to develop. Would it have been in my tank, or been in the fish and been triggered by arrival in my tank?

Apologies for the endless questions. And many thanks for everyone's help.

Cheers


----------



## Abcdefg

MadMike said:


> The filament needs replacing every 6 months for sterilisation, 12 for purification.


Thanks Mike, I didn't realise they had consumables involved, can I ask what the filaments cost to replace? 

Thanks


----------



## Abcdefg

MirandaB said:


> Mycobacteriosis (fish TB) is always in my mind whenever I see fish like this


Hi Miranda,

Can I ask what you did afterwards with your tank? Did this wipe out everything in the tank? As in you euthanised everything, even other species of fish and non - symptom fish? sounds pretty traumatic. 

I have been reading this;
http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/blog/articles/should-you-be-worried-about-fish-tb

And it seems to be suggesting that scraping the whole tank and disinfecting everything and re-starting is the outcome of having this disease.

I realise that I don't know for certain whether the fish have TB, but they are pretty much the first livestock that I have in a 3 month old tank.

I thought I'd got to the part where I could enjoy a bit less stress from the setup, and checking water parameters daily and start to enjoy watching the fish and shrimp and doing slightly less maintainance (50 - 100% water changes etc...). If I have to tear it down  and disinfect it it's going to be sad and pricey (plants etc). Maybe I can just forget keeping fish and carry on with just shrimp, as an alternative.

Thanks


----------



## sciencefiction

Did you administer both treatments together? Too hard on sick fish..


----------



## MadMike

Abcdefg said:


> Thanks Mike, I didn't realise they had consumables involved, can I ask what the filaments cost to replace?
> 
> Thanks


My last one was about £7 I think. 

Sent from my D5503 using Tapatalk


----------



## Abcdefg

sciencefiction said:


> Did you administer both treatments together? Too hard on sick fish..



Hi,

de wormer was thursday, and states 4 days until it has completely decayed, so I assumed starting antibiotics of saturday would be ok. 

I did a quick search on combining, and saw a few things suggesting that it was ok to do at the same time, so I thought with a 48 hr offset it would be fine...

Do you think this is wrong?

Thanks


----------



## Abcdefg

MadMike said:


> My last one was about £7 I think.
> 
> Sent from my D5503 using Tapatalk



Ah, ok, not too much then. Cheers


----------



## sciencefiction

Abcdefg said:


> Do you think this is wrong?



Its hard to judge but i would have done a second dose 4 days kusuri to cover also hex parasite. Then wait for a couple of weeks. What is the Esha for?  Does it treat internal bacterial infections because majority antibacterial meds dont...If it doesnt.. its only an addional stressor...meds can make things worse when one is panicking and overdoing it.


----------



## Abcdefg

sciencefiction said:


> Its hard to judge but i would have done a second dose 4 days kusuri to cover also hex parasite. Then wait for a couple of weeks. What is the Esha for?  Does it treat internal bacterial infections because majority antibacterial meds dont...If it doesnt.. its only an addional stressor...meds can make things worse when one is panicking and overdoing it.




I could do a second dose of kusuri, but I have shrimps in there as well so was hesitant to do this, is it safe?

Esha 2000 doesn't appear to be internal. 

would you recommend trying an internal antibacterial? if so which product should I try?

Thanks


----------



## sciencefiction

Kusuri can harm inverts....

But to cover hex one must do the treatment twice.

The only meds that treat internal baccterial infections are either certain antibiotics which one cant purchase for fish use in the UK... or substitute meds such as interpret n9 but this one is not a joke...it will wipe inverts and the filter bacs. There could be others similar here but they are pretty much the same... a toxic coctail.. 

However...as I mentioned previosly..i would not bother with antibacterial at this stage. If by some unlucky chance this is TB...no antibacterial can help so what exactly would one need to use antibacs meds for?  ..Chances are little this has much to do with bacteria...and if it is...its most likely enviromental as most bacterial diseases with a few exceptions, are environmental. These are not normally contagious.. you would have one skinny fish...not 4_5


----------



## sciencefiction

For internal bacterial infections the med I have used and which is safe for inverts is seachem kanaplex but you can only buy it from ebay. It deals with various contagious bacterial diseases. I lately used it for columnaris. It is absorbed by the fishes skin so it will be effective internally...e.g. in the gut and organs. It is a strong antibiotic but pretty safe to use if one follows the instructions


----------



## sciencefiction

Abcdefg said:


> can I be fairly sure that if it continues it is bacteriological.



No. You cant be sure. There is possibility of parasites that kusuri cant treat for or tapeworms for which you need fluke solve(prazi). You need to give it time after treatments.. dedicating time to big water changes and quality food..Very sick fish may die anyway...or take months to fill out to normal shape again.. providing one got lucky and treated with the right med in the first place...It is very frustrating to deal with sick fish and it has taken me months sometimes to figure it out...One cant expect miracles..Dumping med after med with no decent time apart and no adequate maintenance will not help and can be detrimental. You need to have a plan and patience and not panick if fish keep dying.


----------



## sciencefiction

For hex a med that is safe with inverts is waterlife octozin. Otherwise two doses of kusuri one after the other with a water change but it will kill the snails and some shrimp.


----------



## sciencefiction

I think I have pretty much covered possibilities I know about so its time to shut up  Good luck. I hope something you try works..


----------



## alto

Abcdefg said:


> Unfortunately this one didn't make it, I found it dead on Saturday, and *it had been that way long enough to grow a fine fuzz of long strands*, I'm not sure whether the others may have fed on it before I found it. As it was hidden away under some hair grass, I did t spot it immediately


In an aquarium environment this can occur within a few hours - especially in an already weakened/wasting/chronic disease fish (likely the first pathogens were already established before death)

Fish have a complex host (as in massive army ) of potential pathogens - if you do a necropsy, dozens of pathogens will be listed as "possible disease agents", you're very unlikely to receive a "likely cause of death" statement for any single pathogen (even when iridoviruses & fish TB pathogens are detected) - once fish become _significantly_ ill, it's a pathogen "free for all" state & the picture gets murky, fast.





Abcdefg said:


> The one thing that I was wondering about is feeding.
> 
> I have been feeding jbl plankton pur and some tetra granules (I've forgotten which). However whilst feeding this morning I noticed that the general consensus from the danios is that they like to 'approach-food-and-be-next-to-it' rather than eat the stuff, I don't know whether this is because they where fed last night as well.



Healthy fish are rarely too "full" to eat
It's a "typical" symptom for fish with internal parasites (of various sorts) to experience an initial food response (that excited mad - or not so mad, depending on species - dash) then appear too "full to eat" , unfortunately this symptom can also be observed (though slightly differently) in fish suffering mildly from other diseases.
A fish with zero food response is well past the "mildly ill" stage 

Internal parasites are most effectively treated with medicated food - at this stage, you want to focus on water treatments in order to get fish doing well enough to accept medicated food (which of course is less palatable than non-medicated foods).
(of course almost any fish pathogen is most effectively treated with medicated food  )

Daily water changes of ~25% are always recommended with ill fish in order to improve/optimize water quality
Same daily water changes is also recommended whenever treating fish/aquaria
(University of Florida Veterinary has a very decent set of articles on their open access learning site - some are more specific to aquafaming, many are also directed/applicable for aquaria - quarantine, common diseases & treatment, how to treat, minimizing stress,  etc etc)

At this stage, I'd discontinue the antibacterial - consecutive water changes, 25- 50% depending on what you do normally (which rather depends on how well you're able to match tank vs tap parameters), followed by some carbon overnight to remove remaining chemicals.
Daily water change, then treat with the Kusuri - if you can list the ingredients & directions that would be helpful (in view of my comments)

From what I know of the antibacterial Tx - unless the ingredients have changed dramatically - I'd expect it do virtually nothing but add to fish stress in this situation
(and that's the catch 22 of medicating - pretty much every chemical on the market (& those that are script only) trigger a stress response in fish (regardless of manufacture claims to the contrary)).


----------



## Tim Harrison

Abcdefg said:


> If I have to tear it down and disinfect it it's going to be sad and pricey (plants etc).


Don't worry or stress unduly...whatever the disease usually it's just the fish with a compromised immune system that succumb, so there is no need to strip and disinfect.
We've all been there, many of us with celestials, and it can be very disheartening - but sometimes all you can do is let the disease run its course. 
Stick with it I'm sure it'll come good eventually.


----------



## alto

Listen to Tim 
 - there's nothing to indicate your fish have TB (or any other DIRE disease)


----------



## sciencefiction

Can't stop, lol...but a good article on mycobacteria below if you fancy reading. It is very comprehensive. 

It can be downloaded from here: click the green download button

http://www.mediafire.com/file/7s3zqsora78syb3/Myco2014.pdf


----------



## Abcdefg

I found a third dead danio this morning, not much of a surprise given how it looked last night...



Tim Harrison said:


> Don't worry or stress unduly...whatever the disease usually it's just the fish with a compromised immune system that succumb, so there is no need to strip and disinfect.
> We've all been there, many of us with celestials, and it can be very disheartening - but sometimes all you can do is let the disease run its course.
> Stick with it I'm sure it'll come good eventually.



Thanks Tim,

with this in mind I'm erring on the side of doing this:


alto said:


> Daily water changes of ~25%



seeing how that goes, and then possibly doing another course of the wormer, and or esha EXIT which seems to be anti parasite (unless anybody has any other medication recommendations?) I would be medicating based only on treatments I can find that are shrimp safe.


The thinking behind this path is based of what I think this overall thread is suggesting:

Mycobacteria: if it's this then the fish are all 'doomed' anyway to a large extent as its untreatable, the CPDs are the only fish in the tank in any case so why remove just one or two that look ill (is this right?)

if it's anything else eg parasites:  then the whole tank needs treating anyway.


One thing that is on my mind a bit though is bullying, specifically under-feeding and bullying, and that perhaps I may have created a monster:

I think I have possibly been underfeeding, or feeding foods that the PCDs cant make much effective use of, as they don't remain in suspension. and at feeding times (and probably other times)  there seems to be a bully who's mindset is mainly this:

"I really need to bully everyone to make sure that they are too busy running away to feed"

"this is hard work, I'm so busy bullying everyone else that I don't have time to feed myself... oh well, needs must, ... on with the bullying"

I think that the 5 remaining CPDs that do look active do all manage to eat bits and pieces, but it's all a bit fraught and agressive

Is it worth trying to extract this nitwit,and putting it in a small breeder box that sits in the tank? or (if I can't find a breeder box that's suitable this lunch time) seeing how he/she likes life in a bucket with only a few drops of prime, some moss and an airstone for company for a week or so?

Thanks again


----------



## sciencefiction

Abcdefg said:


> seeing how that goes, and then possibly doing another course of the wormer, and or esha EXIT which seems to be anti parasite (unless anybody has any other medication recommendations?) I would be medicating based only on treatments I can find that are shrimp safe



Seeing no one has responded...Esha exit is mainly an external parasite treament. It says it also treats tapeworms amongst other external parasites but the ones it claims to treat such as flukes(also a type of  tapeworm but external..not in the organs of the fish) ...Those meds will not go into the organs or gut of the fish what normally causes the wasting..You'd see the damage visually on the fish from any external pathogens, be it bacterial or parasitic...Fish tend to flash and scrape themselves off objects too when that's the issue...though not a guarantee..Fish TB(again not always) but it tends to manifest itself externally too in the form of infected wounds and raised nodules.... Esha Exit is totally uncalled for in your scenario....without a microscopic diagnosis... It will also affect your biofilter and kill inverts...there's copper in it.....
There is plenty of advise on treatment here...There's no magic when it comes to treating fish..There's no one med treats all. Its as complicated as treating humans.....Its a steep learning curve and a very stressful one...Whatever you decide to do...or treat for...it needs to be a med that is capable of reaching the fish internally, whether bacterial, protozoan or worming med.


----------



## MadMike

How are things going?

Sent from my D5503 using Tapatalk


----------



## Abcdefg

MadMike said:


> How are things going?
> 
> Sent from my D5503 using Tapatalk



Hi All,

Sorry, been very busy so haven't been on here much. 

As things stand there are 5 CPDs left, most seem very active (breeding and producing fry, although the fry do not survive). One is exibiting the same closely held fins behaviour, but hasn't died yet.

Does anyone have any experience with fry? whether I can do anything for them (food etc?) and whether they survive much?

Many thanks!


----------



## MadMike

Abcdefg said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Sorry, been very busy so haven't been on here much.
> 
> As things stand there are 5 CPDs left, most seem very active (breeding and producing fry, although the fry do not survive). One is exibiting the same closely held fins behaviour, but hasn't died yet.
> 
> Does anyone have any experience with fry? whether I can do anything for them (food etc?) and whether they survive much?
> 
> Many thanks!


That's good news, sounds as though things are settling down in your tank. 

As for fry, I have a net breeding box I hang on the side of my tank. I just feed really finely crushed flake food. Livebearers mind, I've heard that you can buy fry food.

EDIT: Just to add, some java moss can help no end. I've had a couple survive just foraging and living in that. 

Sent from my D5503 using Tapatalk


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





MadMike said:


> Just to add, some java moss can help no end. I've had a couple survive just foraging and living in that.


The <"Java moss"> method works for a lot of small fry.

Do you have a Banana worm culture? if you don't they are really easy to culture and work well with fry (have a look at the linked _Apistogramma_ forums thread).

cheers Darrel


----------

