# Confused!



## Bertie (22 Apr 2014)

Hi All,

I am using a two stage Reg with Solenoid (set at .3mpa initially), attached to a Bubble counter for Regs and then to the New UP Inline Atomizer with co2 rated tubing.

Everything was absolutely normal until a  day or so ago when I noticed that the bubble rate was very slow at start up so I increased the working pressure to .35mpa and it did not really "speed up" until about two hours later,although my DC was ok at lights on.........a light green but not my usual lime green to yellow but my plants did start pearling eventually.

This morning on start up after about 5 mins the bubble rate almost came to a standstill. Now 30mins later it has picked up a bit but I don't expect it to get fully up and running for another hour or two.

It is as if I have a leak somewhere, but I have checked (several times) and cannot find one and to be honest I don't believe that there is one. Also it seems that everyday I have to re-adjust the working pressure as it seems to drop back on a daily startup. 

I have had to add reducers for the hoses to attach to the Inline Atomiser, could this be the cause of slow start up? Although it seemed fine with an Intense Inline Atomiser.

I suppose I could increase the  working pressure to .4mpa, but to be honest I have never had to run anything at higher than 3.5 bar ( .35mpa) and I would be a bit wary running it at .4mpa. 
I am seriously thinking of stopping co2 injection. I have spent more money than I ever would have imagined and certainly more than my other half is happy with.  
I am already on my third Regulator and have tried multiple atomisers/diffusers as well as quite a few bubble counters etc. I have come to the conclusion that I must be totally inept.
 Although my plants still seem to be growing fine, with pearling and having to prune twice weekly. I fear that is going to be short lived if I continue to suffer these setbacks.

How involved is it to come off co2? I would immediately cut back my lighting by 50% but what about EI ferts and liquid carbon and anything else needed?


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## kirk (22 Apr 2014)

To come off c02 bertie you are going to have to book all the plants into rehab. and your Co2 dealer won't be happy.


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## John S (22 Apr 2014)

It does sound like a leak and this is old advice but can you not connect your CO2 directly to your atomiser to see if this eliminates anything?

Having worked so hard to sort your tank out it would be a shame to jack the CO2 in.


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## Bertie (22 Apr 2014)

Hi John,
It certainly does sound like a leak but I am unable to find one. I only have two tube connections. One from the bubble counter which is attached to the Regulator and the Atomiser itself and I have already cut the tubing and made two new connections.
Making a direct connection is my next move but I have tried to make everything simple with a bubble counter directly fitted to the reg etc. The retailer, one of our sponsers, has been very good and offered to send another reg to try out to see if it is the regulator. I am upping my working pressure to .4mpa for a few days just to see if that makes a difference.


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## kirk (22 Apr 2014)

Forgot to say stick with it bertie, you have beaten many problems, I'm sure it's something simple." You can do it"!   your not using an up bubble counter are you?  I had similar problemto you,  found out it was that, small hairline crack where the tubes join.


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## foxfish (22 Apr 2014)

Life with C02 is slow.....


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## harryH (22 Apr 2014)

Bertie said:


> How involved is it to come off co2?



 Hi Berti,

Have to agree, it would be a shame to come off CO2 after you have spent all the time and money.

It's very kind of your supplier to lend you another reg. Leaks can be difficult to find but you must persevere as we all want you to be successful. 

Eliminate as many joins as possible, suspect your bubble counter connections, use soapy water around connections on your regulator...I'm sure you tried the lot but stick at it and good luck mate.

Harry.


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## foxfish (22 Apr 2014)

foxfish said:


> Life with C02 is slow.....


 


foxfish said:


> Life with C02 is slow.....


I meant to say life without C02 is slow ...


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## Andy Thurston (22 Apr 2014)

I use a much lower bubble count than you bertie i had a very minor leak in one of the screwed connections in my reg and overnight it leaked back up the co2 line towards the reg through 2 stainless check valves and it wouldn't restart in the mornings. I unscrewed all the connections in the low pressure side of the reg and put it back together with locktight threadlocker, now it works perfectly. If you have any water in your co2 line in the morning before gas on you definitely have a leak somewhere. I don't need a check valve, now all the leaks are fixed. Water in the check valve can cause low/no bps when co2 comes back on.
What co2 tubing are you using? I find the co2art tubing excellent without the need to use lsx.
Is there anyone who lives near bertie who can go have a look? Maybe it just needs another set of eyes on the job,
Frustrating, I know, but keep looking for that leak, its there somewhere


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## AverageWhiteBloke (22 Apr 2014)

> I meant to say life without C02 is slow ...


 Wondered where you were going with that one. As mentioned there's nothing wrong with life without co2 but if you've already taken the leap it's a shame to quit now. As suggested I would try with nothing between the reg and diffuser other than a non return valve and eliminate things one at a time. Take the sponsor up on the opportunity of the reg and make sure its not that at fault. It wouldn’t be the first!
Working with high pressure co2 always is a pain. I knocked it on the head and moved to a glass diffuser which requires no where near as much pressure to function.
With the atomisers etc most plastic nr valves and bubble counters aren't up to the job, then there's the problems with the atomisers themselves. They seem very temperamental as to which pressure is actually needed to run properly. The problem is that they build up so much pressure before the start dissolving then when they do it takes a while before it gets back up to pressure again causing intermittent bubble rates and releasing of gas. It's harder to see with the inline ones what's going on inside.
Maybe that's just me and the ones I've tried though. Read through the forums and you'll see that your problem is quite common and always seems to be associated with high pressure Bazookas and Atomisers.

Good luck.[DOUBLEPOST=1398186389][/DOUBLEPOST]





Big clown said:


> If you have any water in your co2 line in the morning before gas on you definitely have a leak


Sometimes the water in the tubing in the morning cab be caused by being forced up out of the bubble counter I find. Also, I would use a check valve after the solenoid, water back pressuring into the solenoid can damage it in my experience, this can happen when you disconnect the diffuser for cleaning. I've found that the metal Rhinox valves are about the only ones up to the job.


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## Andy Thurston (22 Apr 2014)

Rhinox check valves were the ones i was using and they couldn't hold back the water either
If my co2 stops with a bubble in the counter that bubble is still there in the morning there in the morning no back flow towards the reg
These check valves are much much better




Screwed directly into the solenoid with the smc needle valve screwed directly into the other end. Now i don't get any water in my co2 line anywhere.
These can be bought for around a fiver from any good pneumatics supplier
No more mickey mouse check valves in my system


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## Bertie (23 Apr 2014)

Hi all,
Thanks for all your help and suggestions. This morning at 4.30am I have disconnected and re-cut, and re-connected the two connections i.e. the tubing to the Atomiser and to the Regulator attached BC...just the two connections.
I have a hospital clinic appt today so I will not be here when the co2 switches on, so I will not be able to monitor much until later today and tomorrow.
I will increase working pressure to .4mpa (as suggested by the retailer) later today, but to be honest I am very wary of upping the pressure  that much as I have not had to use higher than 3.5 bar in the past, but I will see how that goes. If that does not solve the problem, and I still am unable to find leaks, I will take up the suppliers kind offer of trying a new Reg next week.


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## Bertie (23 Apr 2014)

Big clown said:


> If my co2 stops with a bubble in the counter that bubble is still there in the morning


Interestingly there was a bubble still in my bubble counter this morning!


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## Andy Thurston (23 Apr 2014)

Thats a good sign the leak is between the bubble counter and diffuser then


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## Bertie (23 Apr 2014)

I may have found the problem............I yet again looked for a leak and put some soapy water around the Atomiser but it did not show a leak..........however I heard a hissing sound!! 
Now, for some reason the New UP Inline Atomiser locking nuts do not like Eheim hose so I connected the hoses with Jubilee clips. So I got my trusty screw driver out and tightened up the screws as much as I dare without breaking the Atomiser and to be honest it is very tight.

Most of the hissing went but there is a small hissing sound so there still must be a leak, so at water change tomorrow I will drain the hoses and will have to seal the connections with maybe lsx. Other than that I suppose I could put my other Intense Inline Atomiser back on. At least I am making progress


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## foxfish (23 Apr 2014)

It might pay you to re fit the hoses while they are warm, put them in some very hot water or heat them up with a hair dryer just before you tighten the clips.
Warm the clips too, as this gives a little more working time.


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## Bertie (23 Apr 2014)

foxfish said:


> It might pay you to re fit the hoses while they are warm, put them in some very hot water or heat them up with a hair dryer just before you tighten the clips.
> Warm the clips too, as this gives a little more working time.


Hi foxfish,
Yep...I am going to put two "new" hoses on and also,although will have to wait for Saturday, going to get some more new clips. Although these ones are fairly new, but they are from Wilkinsons!!!  may get the new ones from homebase etc. I can still hear hissing so will also have to put some lsx around the barbed connectors on the Atomiser.
Then cross my fingers. If that does not work I will have to go back to the other Inline Atomiser.


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## ian_m (23 Apr 2014)

Careful Bertie I have had LSX attack some plastics used in aquarium world. Never encountered this in plumbing world, which is why I recommended it.

This is what LSX did to the locking nuts on my bubble counter (JBL). LSX has been find on regulator locking nut and my one way valve however.


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## Bertie (23 Apr 2014)

ian_m said:


> Careful Bertie I have had LSX attack some plastics used in aquarium world. Never encountered this in plumbing world, which is why I recommended it.


Thanks ian but I do not think I have a choice as the locking nuts on the New UP just slip over the eheim hoses. I don't know what else I could use! Open to any suggestions though, as I would like to get this sorted once and for all.


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## ian_m (23 Apr 2014)

Bertie said:


> Thanks ian but I do not think I have a choice as the locking nuts on the New UP just slip over the eheim hoses


I have replaced the locking nuts on my UP inline atomiser with stainless steel Jubilee clips after accidentally pulling the hoses off the atomiser, during water change, and starting to syphon my tanks water onto the floor....


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## Bertie (23 Apr 2014)

ian_m said:


> I have replaced the locking nuts on my UP inline atomiser with stainless steel Jubilee clips after accidentally pulling the hoses off the atomiser, during water change, and starting to syphon my tanks water onto the floor....


 yep I already have Jubilee clips, but for some reason the co2 is leaking (as far as I can tell with the hissing noise) and I have tightened them up as far as I dare, but don't want to "force" them any tighter for fear of breaking the Atomiser. The problem of course could be that they are not tight enough and what I can feel is the "cheap clips" just appear to be fully tightened.


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## foxfish (23 Apr 2014)

Bert, what happens when you heat the hose, is it moulds around he fitting when it is soft & makes a far better seal.


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## Bertie (24 Apr 2014)

Well,, during my water change this morning I drained the hoses, and then put the atomiser in a jug (no sign of a leak) then I re-attached them to the Atomiser (after warming the hoses and clips) tightened up as much as I could. When the solenoid switched on there was the usual burst of co2 then it slowed down until it "pressurised" and then seemed ok, although as it is a fast bubble rate in the bc attached to the reg,, it was difficult to tell.

But I can still hear a small hissing sound from the atomiser, so I am assuming that as the hoses are attached via a reducer the hissing I am hearing is the interaction going on in the Atomiser itself??  At lights on the DC was the expected colour at lime green to yellow but I am looking at it with caution as it was water change day

The strange thing is the atomiser was working fine but about 2hrs later (just before lights on) there appeared to be a lot faster bubble rate which is more like I am used to.
I wonder if that is again because the water is coming through a reduce? Or maybe it is my eyes seeing things as I have been watching it so much  I am running now at .4mpa. I will just have to keep an eye on everything and hope for the best.


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## Maximum (25 Apr 2014)

Hi -  no wish to highjack the thread but I think I might be having similar problems with my CO2.
On first set up I had to adjust needle valve each day as the bubble count was slower each day. I then detected a slight leak on BC which the supplier changed for me. Set up again Easter weekend and it was running really well and BC was stable each day. Had hoped that problem was solved BUT today I came in to find BC much faster. Have been advised to up the regulator pressure but cannot understand why it runs at a constant rate for 4 days then suddenly increases. In many ways an increase is more of a worry as the gas is definitely getting into the tank and the pH is dropping even more. Any ideas or suggestions welcome.


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## REDSTEVEO (8 Sep 2014)

Bertie,

Is your UP Inline diffuser installed and set up like the instructions in the diagram below...

http://s654.photobucket.com/user/foxfish_photo/media/20bbe095680742bc68682726f8e46ddd.jpg.html


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## Bertie (9 Sep 2014)

Hi, I now use a DIY Reactor but I had mine connected in the opposite way.


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