# old algae, new algae



## GlassWalker (19 Aug 2014)

This one is new to me. Is it staghorn? The long strand going across the pic is probably the same stuff, hitching a ride on the filter outflow.

Tank is 68L lit with 24W PL for 10 hours a day. No carbon. One dose of EI macro/micro each week. TetraPlant substrate capped with sand. 20L water change most weeks. Livestock includes 3 amano shrimp, 8 copper harlequins, 17 minnows, and a billion MTS. I guess the latter means I might be overfeeding? I have two filters. One is an in-hood system rated at 400lph, picks up from back right corner, returns back left. Also have a Fluval U3 internal located front right, blowing straight across. Due to the closed design there is no practical way for me to use an external short of throwing away the lid with associated filter and light. This would be a bad idea as I have lost several of the copper harlequins in the past to jumping.

In reading up, causes seem to include flow (I think I have a fair amount given the small tank) and dirt. I might be guilty of the latter, and if I'm overfeeding that wont help. So, more regular filter cleaning, plus feeding less is my thought. Any other suggestions? I do have EasyCarbo, but this tank also has a ton of vallis which is known not to like it, and I have experienced it in the past too. I've also heard vallis can grow to get used to it if introduced slowly. Is that agreed?



 
I call this one green hair algae, but realise that is a bit like calling anything with feathers a bird. I have seen this before, and I comprehensively lost the battle with it. It consists of green strands, which have more green strands branching off it. They glow, break off, and is spread by the water current where they get caught on other plants and grow. Repeat until tank is covered in it. Manual removal is almost impossible since tiny frags will be everywhere and it will just grow back. I haven't found the secret sauce to get the plants to out-compete it yet. It hasn't got bad in this tank yet, although I consider a non-zero amount of this to be bad anyway.

In a previous tank, this can grow from zero to tennis ball size lumps in a week in areas of high flow next to a spraybar. It forms a long tentacle on duckbill outputs, and I got it up to over 3ft in a 2.5ft tank, again following the flow.

Anyway, the current tank is a Fluval Roma 125L. Lighting has mostly been 1x25W LED, although recently I put back the 2x20W T8, upgraded to electronic ballast, no reflectors as the LED PSU was playing up. I do intend to put the LED back in place probably on the weekend as I now have a replacement PSU. Again 1 dose of EI per week. TetraPlant substrate capped with sand. No carbon. Once again I have vallis in here. Filtration consists of two external filters: APS1000 with spray bar return (pickup and return on same end of tank) and Fluval 306 with duckbill (pickup and return on other side of tank, flowing across the surface). Either 20 or 40L of water change a week depending on how I feel at the time.

If it matters, this tank has had repeated outbreaks of a floating green algae on the water surface before. It never goes into the water, but will coat anything passing through the surface. Under a microscope these are needle shaped. By trial and error, I found if I run an air filter in tank, this particular algae goes away very quickly (days). I'm not sure what to make of that.

This tank is technically overstocked, with 4 bristlenose plecos, and one unknown pleco, as well as 20-something ember tetras. There are MTS in this tank too, but not in excess. I don't particularly want to keep the plecos, but removing them now will be challenging short of replanting the whole tank. Actually, if the algae isn't controllable, that might not be so bad... nuking the tank IS an option, although I might also be tempted to close the tank. I can rehome the embers in another tank (hopefully without spreading the algae in the process) and sell the plecos on.

Oh, I'm sure you're going to tell me I wasted my money, but in the distant past I did try interpet hair algae killer on it which did absolutely nothing to anything other than give the LFS balance sheet a boost.

Any suggestions?

I can add, if I get another regulator, I have enough spare bits to add CO2 to the 125L tank. I'm not sure it is practical on the 68L.


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## Trevor Pleco (20 Aug 2014)

top one staghorn, the bottom one the dreaded clado.. the bane of the hobby.. amano shrimp can control it if you are lucky..


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## GlassWalker (20 Aug 2014)

Thanks particularly for identifying the 2nd one. Knowing what it is is half the battle. Well, I hope it is! I don't mind getting more amanos (have a few in separate tank), but to be realistic, wouldn't I need an impractical quantity to make much impact? Also as I keep plecos in here, they're relatively slow feeding and I'd guess the shrimp would more likely steal their food than go for the algae. In searching, liquid carbon products seem to be suggested also. I think I will try that, even thought I have vallis in there. I don't mind losing the vallis if I can lose the clado too. Got more vallis in another tank that grows well so can add back later anyway.

Now, where did I put my bottle of EasyCarbo?...


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## Trevor Pleco (20 Aug 2014)

clado is notoriously difficult to completely eradicate from your tank from my experience, however you can manage things with time and a good pair of tweezers or adjust your mindset to it being therapeutic rather than an insurmountable task.  

If its growing into moss or say fissidens a quick dip preferable outside the tank in diluted H202 has worked for me.


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## Andy Thurston (20 Aug 2014)

I'd take a chance with the liquid carbon and vallis. Start with the reccomended dose and then build up to about 2-2.5x dose over a few weeks. Keep a close eye on your flora and fauna and reduce dose if neccesary. Once algae is gone you can slowly reduce back to reccomended dose


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## GlassWalker (20 Aug 2014)

I already have a long battle in a marine tank with bubble algae. The only solution for that is manual removal, but thankfully it is relatively slow grower. I suspect I have a colony out of sight spreading spores as there's always some popping up. Short of ripping that tank apart I don't think I can ever clear it, so it is only containment.

Anyway, back to the clado, today I resumed EasyCarbo at standard dose. On the weekend I'll give the plants a good trim and will try and remove as much of the algae that I can. I'll also see if LFS has amano but I doubt even then I'll get anywhere near enough to make much of a difference. I do like them regardless and even had an unsuccessful go at raising their zoe before.


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## ceg4048 (20 Aug 2014)

Clado = poor CO2 and poor nutrition.
Animals cannot solve root cause of plant health problems.

Cheers,


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## Trevor Pleco (20 Aug 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> Clado = poor CO2 and poor nutrition.
> 
> Cheers,



this is news to me ... so you don't necessarily have to inherit this delightful beast from another source and alternatively if you have good Co2 and good balanced nutrition and you then inherit clado from an external source,  are you suggesting that it won't prosper in your tank ?


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## GlassWalker (20 Aug 2014)

I will agree that this particular tank is low on CO2 on account I don't add any, nor liquid equivalents. Nutrients shouldn't be a problem. No one wants to say too much light?

Fair enough adding creatures wont fix the root cause, but if they can help manage the outbreak and I like them, why not? As said I do have 3 amano shrimp in another tank but I don't want to move them, so getting more is not out of the question.

As further background, the tank that has clado was first planted in January last year. It has never had clado until now, and I suspect it got carried over when moving stuff between previous tank shutdowns. I can only hope my other tanks aren't similarly affected.


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## GHNelson (20 Aug 2014)

Hi
Low Water changes? 
Low fertilizer routine!
Low Co2.....will cause you problems!
hoggie


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## GlassWalker (20 Aug 2014)

Unless you're saying everyone *has* to run CO2 or liquid carbon, then what options are there for low tech? Ferts and water changes were covered in original post.


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## ceg4048 (20 Aug 2014)

Trevor Pleco said:


> this is news to me ... so you don't necessarily have to inherit this delightful beast from another source and alternatively if you have good Co2 and good balanced nutrition and you then inherit clado from an external source, are you suggesting that it won't prosper in your tank ?


The sooner you stop thinking of algae as some kind of infections disease the sooner you will be on the path to solving your algae problems. Every tank has clado spores, every tank has BBA and BGA spores, every tank has hair and all the other algal spores.

The spores only bloom when the hobbyist screws up and fails to provide a healthy environment for plants.
Algae does not need to "carry over". The spores are ALWAYS present. further explanation in the thread ukaps.org/forum/threads/cleaning-dry-algae-from-a-used-tank.25789/

Options for low tech are to reduce the lighting in order to reduce the demand for nutrients/CO2. Floating plants etc. work well in that regard.

Cheers,


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## GlassWalker (20 Aug 2014)

Does floating algae count?  This is the same tank on a previous occasion, but it comes and goes. I could intentionally let it return if it might help. Fight algae with algae?

As said, this surface algae doesn't go into the water, only sits on top, and will coat anything passing through the surface, like my finger in this example. I found turning on an air filter gets rid of it. Running the output of an external filter across the surface doesn't, so I guess it is something to do with air flow, but beyond that I'm out of ideas.

Alternatively I could convert to high tech. I have enough spare bits now other than a regulator. If I were to go this route, should it be done while combating the algae?


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## Trevor Pleco (21 Aug 2014)

I hear what you are saying Ceg, but I'm not talking about the myriad types of different algae, I'm referring to the dreaded clado which is a somewhat different beast imo... I never saw it in any of my tanks over twenty years or more until I accidentally inherited it from another hobbyist's plants and then I battled to loose this devil just in the tank where I had introduced the plants.. the hobbyist subsequently apologised when he realised he had it in his tank.  Let's put it another way, if I had not inherited it I'm sure I would never have got it or rather it would not have developed, as all my other tanks are free of it thankfully...


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## dw1305 (21 Aug 2014)

Hi all,
The green algae like _Cladophora, Spirogyra_ etc. are always going to be difficult to control by cultural measures, because they have the same basic physiology and photosystems as all the higher plants (mosses, ferns, conifers & flowering plants).

They actually share a common ancestor with the all the other green plants ("Green Algae and the origin of land plants") and form the clade "Viridiplantae" (image from the excellent "Tree of Life")
<http://tolweb.org/Green_plants>) 

I have one tank, this one (more photos in <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/water-lettuce-and-its-impact-on-my-tank.24109/>)  that gets visible _Cladophora_ very occasionally, I say _visible_, because I'm sure it is always present in small amounts.




At the visible point I just up the plant mass and manually remove the _Cladophora (_easy to do because they are tough strands and gritty to the touch_). _

All my tanks are low tech - no CO2, get a 12 hour day (often plus some sunlight), are nutrient depleted, have floating plants (feeding via the "Duckweed index"), have snails and receive regular small volume water changes.

I like stability, "_good things come to those who wait_".

cheers Darrel


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## GlassWalker (21 Aug 2014)

I was also going to say "not all algae are the same" but I think Darrel just said it better than I ever could. I was going to draw parallels with marine algae experiences, but that seems unnecessary now.

Today the tank got its 2nd normal strength dose of EasyCarbo. Should I ramp up slowly, or go to elevated dosing faster?


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## Andy Thurston (21 Aug 2014)

I increased mine in steps
Normal dose on week one
1.5x week 2
2x week 3
2.5x week 4
3x week 5
3.5x week 6(at this point both shrimp and fish showed signs of distress so i reduced dose back to 2x)(all the fish sat on the substrate and all the shrimp were whizzing round just below the surface)
6 months later i stopped liquid carbon dead and started adding gas without any problems


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## sciencefiction (22 Aug 2014)

Modify the light. In a low tech you can use higher intensity light up to 8hrs a day as long as you've got lots of plants and faster growing demanding plants or you can use lower intensity light longer hours up to 11hrs max possibly if light is not powerful.
I have better results with the first option, better light, shorter hours because the other option will not suit light demanding plants and they won't do well regardless of photoperiod.  Now if you use higher intensity light and long hours then its a recipe for disaster.

My point is in a low tech algae doesn't appear overnight unless there's something fundamentally wrong.
So my advise is cut the light period down drastically from your 10 hrs to 8.5 hrs max a day, possibly 8 till the problem is solved.   Add fast growing plants like either floating plants or some sort of weed that grows very fast. You can always remove it once you sort your problems. It seems the heavy bioload is the major cause though, too much organics so I'd do 50% water changes weekly without a fail on either tank.


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## GlassWalker (22 Aug 2014)

How fast is a fast growing plant? I have hygrophila and elodea densa, both seem to extend considerably every week that if I neglect cutting them back, they often go along the surface too.


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## sciencefiction (22 Aug 2014)

Maybe you don't have enough of them. Hydrophila grows relatively fast but its not the fastest grower and doesn't overtake a tank easily.  I'd go with floating plants as they use aerial CO2. But if you have lots of surface movement and you can't use that option, then the fastest I've had(which also loves to float if you want it to) is bacopa australis. But I am sure there are tons of species people can recommend.


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## GlassWalker (25 Sep 2014)

Still fighting the battle on clado here. I have been gradually increasing the EasyCarbo dosage on the tank. Historically I've used the medium planted dose of 1ml per 50L (as opposed to heavy planted dose of 1ml per 25L). Tank is 125L but does have a fair bit of bogwood, rock and substrate so let's call it a round 100L. I have worked up the dosage now to 6ml/day, which is 3x that I was using before. So should my baseline be taken as the standard of heavily planted dose? I'm guessing maybe the latter, since I do have a lot of plant mass in there...

Just what sort of dose is suggested for removing clado without impacting fish? I'm going to need another bottle soon. This high dosage is really using it fast... on the positive side, I haven't observed any adverse effects on the vallis.

As a side note, today I found a lower cost source of crystal shrimps. I see they could contribute to the consumption of the algae, and I always wanted shrimp anyway. It wouldn't be hard for me to adapt the water characteristics of this tank to be suitable for them.


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## GlassWalker (5 Jan 2015)

Back again, and I did some serious tank content shuffling last weekend. In short, I've moved all the livestock out of the clado infected tank, hopefully not carrying any of it into other tanks. That leaves me with a tank that is full of plants, clado and MTS. As far as I'm concerned, I have an easy option, which is to bin the contents of the tank. But there are a lot of plants in it, and I have a load of easy carbo I'm not planning on using elsewhere. So let's try nuking the clado again! I've got nothing to lost except a little time, and it would be a learning exercise.

Previously I've used up to 6ml/day (3x standard dose of 1ml per 50L) without impact. I'm thinking of hitting it at 10ml/day (5x standard dose) and see if that does anything! If the liquid carbon works, how quickly could I see an impact? Would there be any direct benefit in combating the clado if I were to add CO2 also? I've discontinued CO2 on another tank that I've switched to low tech, so I've go a spare kit now.


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## GlassWalker (8 Jan 2015)

3 days in at 5x dose and no obvious change to the clado or anything else in tank yet.

Random thought did occur, which is under what conditions does the glut degrade? I moved some from the original bottle into a dosing bottle to make the dosing easier, but the dosing bottle is much lighter plastic so if it photo degrades, that would not be ideal.


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## GlassWalker (13 Jan 2015)

A week of 5x dose EasyCarbo did exactly nothing to the clado. I've gone up to 7.5x dose now. I'm starting to wonder if either my EC has gone off, or if clado is indestructible. The only visible animal life in tank are bladder and MTS and they still seem to be around.


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## alto (14 Jan 2015)

You might just wrap the dosing bottle in foil to limit light (which does negatively impact glutaraldehyde), also store the bottle inside the cabinet.
Glutaraldehyde does degrade over time even when kept cool & dark, I don't know what the aquarium trade may be doing to stabilize the compound but in a lab setting, I replaced the bottle annually (even if only a small amount had been used BUT using for rather different reasons, so this may not really be all that applicable to the aquarium trade usage ...)
Out of habit I buy Excel in smaller bottles that I expect to use within a few months - found a bottle I'd forgotten for a year or so, it was definitely no longer the same as the newly opened bottle, so I plan to dispose of it.

IME it's much easier to limit algae than to clear out infestations, pretty sure there are some "dips" that help reset the system if you're inclined to tear the tank down: just clean the plants somewhat manually as you go, trim damaged leaves/roots etc as you would normally for replanting, & "store" in clean water; strip down the tank substrate etc, rescape, thoroughly clean filters & so on.
When it comes to "dip" solutions, research carefully for each plant - I don't know is there's any discussion here regarding this sort of treatment, there are some mad dippers over on the American forums   though perhaps this has passed out of vogue.

If you're in the mood to rescape, just the clean up & replanting your tidied up plants & adding CO2 etc may be sufficient to break the algae hold on this tank.


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## roadmaster (14 Jan 2015)

Reducing light intensity in low tech work's wonder's but hard to move folks off their high dollar lighting.
I have moved plant's from moderate light, to very low light (ie) 4x54 watt T5's Ten inches above water's surface,thirty inches to the substrate, to one 32 watt T8 and seen algae retreat from the edges of Vals,anubia,crypt's. Tuft algae disappear from leaves/ wood.
Does not happen overnight, but within a few week's the algae goes away.
Return the plant's to previous tank with reduced intensity (raised the light) and  all was/is well.
No chemical treatment's required.
Monthly cleaning of filter material helps also.


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## GlassWalker (14 Jan 2015)

First up, the tank these plants are in is no longer active, in that I'm not keeping livestock in it. It is only kept on for experimenting with the clado as a learning exercise. I don't care if it gets nuked in the process, but if the treatment is successful and the clado is eliminated, not merely controlled, then I will give the plants away for free locally. There are a lot of plants and I don't want to write them off if there are minimal effort solutions that might work. If there is a whole tank treatment that might works, I'll try it. I will not handle plants individually and would rather bin the lot as I haven't got time for that. The plants are in the same tank they were in before, the juggling referred to other livestock. 

Filters got cleaned much more regularly than monthly, the dirt buildup was pretty fast. My water changes may be smaller than some desire around here, typically 20 to 40% depending on my mood at the time.

Interesting on the light sensitivity of glut, as I noticed early EasyCarbo bottles were opaque white, but newer ones are black. I'm moving it into a dosing bottle to make things easy, but that is even more transparrent than the white bottles. So photo-degradation is a possibility there. It may explain why my massive doses seem to do no good or bad.

Not sure on light reduction possibilities. Currently running the Fluval freshwater LED bar (25W) over it, which I've put up for sale elsewhere anyway so will need to remove at some point. I could return to the original 2x20W T8 which are subjectively less bright. The reflectors have been lost long ago so efficiency should be pretty poor. Tubes aren't that new either.

Think I read somewhere a H2O2 dip might also help. Given I'm not running other livestock in this tank, I wonder if a whole tank treatment of that is a possible nuclear option if glut doesn't work? Assuming my H2O2 hasn't gone off too. The bottle expands over time and I have to de-gas it now and then.

Oh, CO2 addition is a possibility too, I removed it from another tank which I've gone low tech on as I'm fed up with excessive growth all the time.


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## roadmaster (15 Jan 2015)

Just agreeing with post # 12 submitted by Clive as well as relaying my own experiences .
I guess chemicals are more fun for some to fart around with than other's.
Would seem to me however that if condition's are ripe for it's return,then chemical treatment's would bring possibly only temporary relief.


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## GlassWalker (15 Jan 2015)

I do believe this problem is an introduced one, not one that spontaneously appears from nowhere. In a similar way I don't get the potential of a Vallis outbreak unless I introduce it in the first place. I had this previously on one other tank, considering I run all my tanks similarly if it was so easy to appear from nowhere, all my tanks would be infected sooner or later. More likely I had a failure in biocontrol when doing a previous round of tank shuffling leading to this tank's infestation. All algae are NOT equal. I got the general theory of planted tanks, but separate from that, if you do get different algae, there are different methods to control them. That's all I want to do. I'm fairly sure I don't have any nutrient shortage here. Liquid carbon is used. Lighting may be more an area of discussion. 

Why do I get the feeling I left one Matrix to simply join another one?...


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## dw1305 (15 Jan 2015)

Hi all,
The Green algae (Chlorophyta), like _Cladophora,_ are part of the same phylogenetic lineage ("Viridiplantae clade") as all the mosses, ferns and higher plants.

This means that they all share the same photosynthetic pigments (chlorophyll A, chlorophyll B) and basic physiology etc.

One result of this is that, if you create conditions that are suitable for plants you have suitable conditions for green algae.

cheers Darrel


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