# Not convinced my CO2 system is working correctly :(



## ojustaboo (22 Mar 2011)

Hi all, me yet again.

Last night I finally got my reg leak free and everything set up and working, using my home made reactor as per my thread
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=15107

I've got it set up as follows.

Regulator output into one way valve.
One way valve into bubble counter. Bubble counter into my reactor.

Filter output into top of reactor, bottom of reactor into fish tank spray bar as per rough drawing below



I only had it on for an hour or so last night before the light went off (it's on a solenoid and goes off with lights) so just set it up, checked for leaks and decided to play today.

First problem was the bubble counter. Last night it was 2/3 full of water, today it was filled to the top.  As I've cable tied the pipes onto the connections, easiest way of emptying a bit was turning it upside down and turning the CO2 up to force some out of the counter, I imagine I'm going to get told why this is a bad idea in a min 

2nd problem is, I set low pressure at 1.5 bar and the bubble counter to be approx 60 bubbles per min and after 2 hours, the drop checker was still completely blue.   My wife is convinced it's gone slightly green, I'm not.

I've moved the drop checker to a different part of the tank that obviously has flow from the filter over it. 
I've upped the bubbles to approx 140 per minute. So far it still isn't changing colour, will get back in a couple of hours to let you know if there's any change.

Not having much luck so far


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## ojustaboo (22 Mar 2011)

Just to add a bit if humour, my wife now agrees it's blue too.

She was looking at the green sucker that holds it to the glass rather than the liquid in the drop checker


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## ojustaboo (22 Mar 2011)

Just done a couple of PH readings using my normal PH testing kit and my high range PH kit.

The high range one shows at 7.4 (lowest it goes)
Normal one shows 7.0

Was about to say why the difference but using my brains, I presume as the normal one goes to 7.6 but shows 7.0 that is correct reading, and as the high one cant obviously go less than 7.4, that's why it's saying 7.4    

Last week when I checked the tap water PH after 24 hrs it was 7.5

edit:
last week: 
GH 0 - 70ppm
KH 140 - 210ppm


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## Rowly (22 Mar 2011)

Hi ojustaboo,

Are you using 4dkh solution in your dropchecker? If not then this could be giving you the false reading.

Regards,
Rowly


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## ojustaboo (22 Mar 2011)

Not sure, I'm using this kit

http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/tmc-aqu ... -3813.html

Wondering whether I should get one of the funny shaped glass ones instead?

Thanks

Joe


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## Rowly (22 Mar 2011)

I'm not familiar with the kit your using, does it require you to put some water from the tank inside the checker?

You don't need the glass ones they all do the same job, it's just the glass ones look nicer

Rowly


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## ojustaboo (22 Mar 2011)

Yep, a few drops of the supplied solution topped up with tank water.


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## 3madstaffs (22 Mar 2011)

hi mate i bought one of the glass ones i think your talking about and use 4dkh  with it, and it seems to work fine. I was sent the tmc drop checker you have by mistake when i ordered a bubble counter, so thought id put that in the tank aswell ( was free after all ) so id got one on each side and iv'e gotta say CRAP . The glass one does change colour,  the tmc went from blue all the way to yellow and now seems to be stuck at a nice CLEAR , maybe its me who knows but it will be coming out of the tank.


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## Rowly (22 Mar 2011)

Right there's the problem, you need to use water of a known KH to get a true reading. You can buy it from our sponsers http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/ae-desi ... -3979.html

Just instead of putting tank water in you top up with this solution.

It's explained better in this thread http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=467

Regards,
Rowly


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## RudeDogg1 (22 Mar 2011)

If your bubble counter is filling up I think u have water syphoning back which could be a lack of pressure. And yes use 4dk water not tank water in your dc


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## ojustaboo (22 Mar 2011)

Thanks all, will order the 4dkh and a glass drop checker from sponsors tomorrow (my one only has a tiny slit to get whatever it measures from the tank as opposed the glass ones that have a large open area).

A bit confused about the pressure as when the CO2 is on, the bubble counter remains fine, it's only when it stops that it is filling up, possible a leak somewhere or the fact it's a cheap crappy bubble counter?

Just done another manual PH reading and it's now between 6.8 and 6.6 (drop checker still same colour).

Trouble is, the amount of bubbles per min to get this will mean my bottle will last no time at all, was hoping that by building the reactor, from what I've read, they use a lot less CO2.

Have just tried slowing down the flow from my filter, which was on max  (190lt tank, Eheim 350/2973 pro 3 filter, 1050lt per hour) , to see if that makes any difference, giving more time for CO2 to dissolve, leaving the reg/bubble counter rate the same as it has been for the past couple of hours..

Will do another reading in a couple of hours and report back


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## foxfish (22 Mar 2011)

We normally count the bubbles per second "BPS" & although there is no formula - 2-3 bps would not be unusual for a 190 lt tank.
Even at that rate, 2kg of gas should last 3 months ish.
Reactors like yours do work, as do, virtually all the regular methods of dissolving the C02 into your tank water but, they dont work particularly better than many other methods!
You need to make sure you have plenty of flow around the inside your tank too.
PS I have been thinking a lot lately about fitting an in line atomiser just in front of a reactor - perhaps you should pioneer the idea (at least on this forum)


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## Nelson (22 Mar 2011)

foxfish said:
			
		

> PS I have been thinking a lot lately about fitting an in line atomiser just in front of a reactor - perhaps you should pioneer the idea (at least on this forum)


i think Londondragon is doing that.


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## ojustaboo (23 Mar 2011)

Thanks all.

Since putting the filter flow lever at 3/4 and giving it another couple of hours, the PH has dropped to between 6.4 and 6.6 on my chart. 

Lights and CO2 go off in 10 mins, so will see what happens tomorrow

Note, have just read CO2 should go on and off an hour before the lights do, will adjust timer tomorrow.

Wish I had found this forum before I started down this route.
Would have simply got the up atomiser, a normal reg and a large CO2 canister.

While I got my D-D system in a sale at £70, still have to source a large CO2 canister and get an adaptor.

Still at least I'm getting there.

Will have to look at flow in the tank very carefully, being a triangular corner tank with a bow front, it seems to go more round in a circle as if your looking down on a sink draining, rather than going across the top, down the front, across the floor to the back etc  although it is circulating, just not sure how efficient it is.

Thanks again for all your help


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## foxfish (23 Mar 2011)

Your style of reactor can store quite a bit of C02 in the top of the cylinder & that is under pressure from the filter, this pocket of gas can take some time to dissolve even after the gas supply is switched off.
So it is important to switch the gas off at least one hour before the lights.
That is one reason why it is easier to control a clear reactor, like I say the reactor should work but it might take a bit of fine tuning! 
PS dont forget an UP inline anatomiser cost only about £15.


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## Bobtastic (23 Mar 2011)

foxfish said:
			
		

> PS I have been thinking a lot lately about fitting an in line atomiser just in front of a reactor - perhaps you should pioneer the idea (at least on this forum)



I read on here somewhere of someone fitting a ceramic defuser inside their AM1000. I quite like the sound of that as you would obviously get smaller bubbles off the defuser that will dissolve quicker into the water.


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## GHNelson (23 Mar 2011)

Hi 
Add a check valve to the Co2 out line after the bubble counter this will stop back syphoning of water from the reactor which fills your bubble counter.
Make sure there is no water in the Co2 in line to the bubble counter also.
hoggie


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## Coiln3107 (23 Mar 2011)

Hi guys, I dont know what I am missing here but something is clearly wrong.  Why would anyone using a reactor want to put a diffuser in or anywher near it. An someone says that reactors store CO2 :? Why? I run 2off Aquamas 3000 reactors on 2 large tanks a get zero bubbles from the spraybars and zero buildup of gas. I think if you have either of these problems you need to address fundamental issues, like how hard you are driving your reactors, because in my humble opinion neither of these problems are relevant if the reactors are not under driven. Rather than fit more bits, try fixing what you have  . Have fun kind regards Colin.


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## foxfish (23 Mar 2011)

Colin, you are running a professionally designed & built  built reactors, ojustaboo is running a home made design!

Why would I fit an inline diffuser before a reactor - well I wouldn't if it was a tried & tested model but, if I wanted to experiment with a small efficient reactor that removes the inherent mist produced by an inline diffuser then I would do so.
A build up of gas in the top of certain reactors is not only common but sometimes a deliberate function of the design.


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## Coiln3107 (23 Mar 2011)

Hi Foxfish, why would a reactor be deigned to collect CO2.Can you send me a link to any reactors that you are talking about  . As you say my reactor is professionally designed, and at no point collects gas. Surely any gas collection could and will cause a dump at some point. 
This is an extract from the manual supplied with a Aquamedic 1000 reactor.The Reactor 1000 is a hermetically sealed reactor for the introduction of CO2 into large live plant systems. This powerful unit is designed to efficiently dissolve rising CO2 bubbles in strong counter-current water flow. The robust mounting plate enables it to be easily mounted outside the aquarium or inside the cabinet. Able to provide rapid CO2 introduction for systems as large as 500 gallons, the The Reactor 1000 is a hermetically sealed reactor for the introduction of CO2 into large live plant systems. This powerful unit is designed to efficiently dissolve rising CO2 bubbles in strong counter-current water flow. The robust mounting plate enables it to be easily mounted outside the aquarium or inside the cabinet. Able to provide rapid CO2 introduction for systems as large as 500 gallons, the Reactor 1000 has proven to be a capable favorite among keepers of sizeable live plant systems.Reactor 1000 has proven to be a capable favorite among keepers of sizeable live plant systems. 
An efficient unit to dissolve gas I read not collect and store it in pockets!!!!
Kind regards Colin.


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## ojustaboo (23 Mar 2011)

I've ordered the glass drop checker and the 4dkh solution that was dispatched first class today from the sponsors.

Will get hold of another check valve. 

Very odd, I watched when the co2 came on and the bubble counter was correctly 2/3rds full, but as soon as it came on the counter filled up with water, which would look like the tube from the counter to the check valve near the reg had got water in it overnight somehow and this was forced out when the co2 came on???

If I still have bad luck, might invest in one of the up-atomisers and write my home made reg off. Time I brought the glue, forgot an item so had to place another order and pay additional postage, it's cost me around £40 - 50 , so I might have well brought a professional one in the first place. I was put off by the Aquamedic one as it doesn't have 16mm connectors.

Thanks all


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## John S (24 Mar 2011)

Your D-D kit has a built in non return valve on it's output. You could just move your check valve to the other side of the bubble counter.


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## foxfish (24 Mar 2011)

Hi Colin, I am not sure if there are any commercially available C02 reactors that operate under pressure but this style was certainly available in the past.
No they dont dump the gas because of the design, water exits from the bottom & enters from the top allowing the stored gas to dissolve under pressure against the moving water.
I have built many reactors like that but there is also the vortex design that used to be popular as an internal reactor, the pumped water would spin up a vortex inside a 50mm tube & the gas was introduced in the middle of the vortex making a cone of C02 with water spinning around stored gas.
 I put a couple of picture of my Diy one on this thread http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f= ... 0&start=40


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## ojustaboo (24 Mar 2011)

davem said:
			
		

> Your D-D kit has a built in non return valve on it's output. You could just move your check valve to the other side of the bubble counter.




Thanks, cant believe I missed that from the instructions 

On a separate note, last night, after altering my electronic timer, for some reason it didn't turn off at all. I came down today to find all the fish at the top of the tank, thankfully all alive.

i've turned the CO2 off and opened the lid. I also took a PH reading and it was 6.4.

Both the colour chart on my useless aquagro co2 checker (which, while green, still wasn't lime green this morning) and things I've read appear to say I should be aiming for a PH level of 6.4 as an optimal amount of CO2 in the tank?

That being the case, I wonder why most of my fish were at the very top of the tank this morning.

Which brings me onto y next point 

PH fluctuation.

If my normal tap water measures 7.5 after 24 hrs and the PH at lime green is 6.4, do I really want it going up and down this much every night/day?  Wouldn't it be bad for the fish?

Last night I didn't have my air pump connected, but usually when the lights go out, the pump goes on and I have an 18" air stone (well perforated pipe thingy) putting tones of air bubbles into the tank. Wouldn't this force a quick change from 6.4 back to 7.5?  Would I be better simply letting it adjust slowly overnight without the air?

I'll get there in the end


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## Bobtastic (24 Mar 2011)

I think this would show that you drop checker isn't working properly. I nearly killed all my fish once when I accidentally left my Co2 on over night. Once you receive your new drop checker and 4dkh water you'll see the difference.

Also you are clearly getting Co2 in your water column or else the fish wouldn't react the way they have another sign that your current DC is bobbins. Don't forget the you use the DCs as a guide not the rule. 

Air pumps/stones don't actually add oxygen to the water btw, they just add surface agitation which will increase the gas exchange venting Co2 and allowing O2 to dissolve into the water.


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## Coiln3107 (25 Mar 2011)

Ojustaboo, Im glad all the fish are ok  , this is one of my favourite moans on here is drop checker colours and reaction times. They are ONLY an indicator and thats it, how many times on posts on here are people going on about, lime green/yellow/or just green. I am not sure of the lifespan of indicator solution and other peoples ways of doing CO2 times and amounts, but here is my way if it helps. I used a pair of DC,s in both tanks and got a fairly good idea from them of the fact I had a reasonable spread off gas. Then over a week slowly tweeked the time duration and bubble count until I got a liitle bit of gasping one night. I then reduced everything by 10% and left it alone. Plant growth and condition are amazing    and algea virtually zero. My DC is virtually redundant because of the amount of variables in colours and the fact that the livestock are much more important to me.  A lot of people get there spraybar to help surface agitation rather than causing a tsunami for 10 minutes with an air pump but as usual whatever works for you, but my tanks just vent overnight naturally with the flow from the pumps, no extra help. Kind regards Colin.


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## ojustaboo (25 Mar 2011)

Thanks all.

Yep what you say makes sense Colin, however for someone new to CO2, it makes sense for me to have some sort of general indication as to CO2 getting into the tank and how well it's distributed (will be moving DC around every day to monitor different areas once I get it stabilised.

My new DC and 4dKH turned up today from the sites sponsor (superb service).

I do have one final question people 

It says I must only use Bromothymol Blue with it as found in the Hagen low PH test range.

I have two bottles of API's low PH test solution and was also supplied today with what simply says "UP CO2 Level indicator Reagent" with my new drop-checker.

I've had a quick search at both manufactures sites and cant find anything to indicate what's actually in either of these solutions, can anyone please confirm either way whether either of these are suitable please?

Many many thanks


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## Coiln3107 (25 Mar 2011)

Hi, not sure about all the different manufactutres, but anything I have had starts off a yellow/orange colour. Once combined with 4dkh water it goes a deep blue colour with about 4 drips in the drop checker, then filled with the 4dkh. Within an hour submersed in a tank where a reasonable level of CO2 is present you should see it more green than blue and after 2 hours it should reflect a fairly accurate result on the CO2 status at that part of the tank.
If your not sure and this is your only way of measuring your CO2 levels dont take any chances with wrong indicator solutions, unless you can visually moniter any critter distress. Kind regards Colin.


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## ojustaboo (25 Mar 2011)

Thanks Colin.  Yep it's working fine, a nice lime green.  Was exactly as you described, (yellowy orange then turned blue).

Thanks


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## ojustaboo (11 Apr 2011)

Just to update.

Everything seems to be going extremely well.

For the first time in around 15 years, my plants are actually growing and not dying.

Today I need to trim them for the first time ever as some have reached the top of the tank   

Thanks for all the advice


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## bigmatt (11 Apr 2011)

Nice!  Really pleased for you!  I'm off to fiddle with my CO2 now as i don't think mine's right!
Glad to hear the good news
 Matt


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## Rowly (11 Apr 2011)

Nice to hear, and welldone.

Time for some pics of the tank?


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