# Tetra - Bacterial, parasite?



## jameson_uk (2 Feb 2020)

Noticed a couple of my black neon tetras looking a little off (slightly grey, dull eyes).

One has a big red spot near what I think is the stomach / organs?  (Sorry best shot I could get)





Any ideas what it might be ?


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## Simon Cole (2 Feb 2020)

Liver disease. Sorry mate.


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## jameson_uk (2 Feb 2020)

Simon Cole said:


> Liver disease. Sorry mate.


I can't find much info on t'interweb.  Is this Mycobacteriosis or different?


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## Simon Cole (3 Feb 2020)

Where I would expect the liver to be, but it might also be the spleen. Cannot say what caused the damage. There are some good explanations here of what to do if you suspect it is mycobacteriosis, so I might be tempted to do an autopsy when the final bell tolls, or sooner even.


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## jameson_uk (3 Feb 2020)

Simon Cole said:


> Where I would expect the liver to be, but it might also be the spleen. Cannot say what caused the damage. There are some good explanations here of what to do if you suspect it is mycobacteriosis, so I might be tempted to do an autopsy when the final bell tolls, or sooner even.


I don't suspect anything just came across a couple of articles that mentioned livers and mycobacterium.  The only other thing I did wonder was whether this might be down to keeping softer water fish in hard water.  The fish are either 20 months or 38 months old (hard to identify individual fish )


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## Simon Cole (4 Feb 2020)

Not with black tetra, mine do fine in hard water. I do get congenital problems with guppies due to inbreeding. When the fish get old and organs fail, then diseased organs can quickly become infected tissue. 
I would certainly check whether it is visible on both sides. If it was an ulcer on epidermal tissue then you might be able to use dilute potassium permanganate baths. Red tissue is usually infection, white regrowth.  
Do you use glutaraldehyde, as I have often wondered how long term dosing might effect fish.


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## jameson_uk (27 Feb 2020)

So this has turned into

What actually is this?


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## alto (27 Feb 2020)

Nice camera footage 

Looks like a tumour (not so uncommon in fish) with some inflammation and some lack of skin integrity on that one side (which is concerning) ... fish still seems relatively active but I’d remove to an isolation tank as this may also be pathogen related 
At the least, the affected fish will have higher loads of potential pathogens 

(imagine loads of tiny worms growing on at that particular location ... while this is atypical, I observed this in some wild caught SA fish, it’s an extremely nasty parasite, once there were external signs, the worm had invaded gill and progressively more body tissue; I did manage to successfully treat some Altum angels but it was a lengthy process
I’ve since seen early stages of this parasite in several fish shop tanks, including some tank bred tetras ... of course staff were disinclined to belief)


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## jameson_uk (28 Feb 2020)

alto said:


> Nice camera footage


Ended up taking a video after 100 slightly out of focus photos 



> Looks like a tumour (not so uncommon in fish) with some inflammation and some lack of skin integrity on that one side (which is concerning) ... fish still seems relatively active but I’d remove to an isolation tank as this may also be pathogen related
> At the least, the affected fish will have higher loads of potential pathogens


I have been loosing fish to non specific for a long time.  Seem to go in batches with a few going then everything seeming ok for while and then another couple.  I have always suspected internal parasites but this has just been a hunch.

This fish is still pretty active (briefly tried to net it last night and it was certainly active enough to not want netting....). 



> (imagine loads of tiny worms growing on at that particular location ... while this is atypical, I observed this in some wild caught SA fish, it’s an extremely nasty parasite, once there were external signs, the worm had invaded gill and progressively more body tissue; I did manage to successfully treat some Altum angels but it was a lengthy process
> I’ve since seen early stages of this parasite in several fish shop tanks, including some tank bred tetras ... of course staff were disinclined to belief)


Other than removing fish is there anything I can do for the tank?  I haven't added any new fish for ages and there are only 6 tetras, 7 Cory, 5 Otos and some amanos left.


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (1 Mar 2020)

What is your water change regime currently including any cleaning of the substrate?


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## jameson_uk (1 Mar 2020)

Normally 50% weekly including a good vacuuming of the substrate


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## alto (1 Mar 2020)

jameson_uk said:


> I have been loosing fish to non specific for a long time. Seem to go in batches with a few going then everything seeming ok for while and then another couple. I have always suspected internal parasites but this has just been a hunch.


Internal parasites (leading to death) usually display some typical symptoms 
- fish exhibit a good food response, but then just swim aimlessly about as if slightly confused
- fish will intake food, but then spit it back out; they will often continue tasting and spitting, you won’t see the slight roundness through the belly that develops when fish eat a good amount 
(fish should rarely show a significant rounding after meals - unless you’re growing out fry - in general, aquarium fish (including some shops) are overfed)
- long trailing (often white) feces 
And some more generic symptoms as well

With continued occasional losses, consider whether maintenance might be improved - this is always a good place to start even if water seems fine - a week of daily water changes and substrate vacuuming, filter clean etc, then a couple weeks of 2-3 weekly water changes, gradually returning to standard 50-70% weekly water changes (watch George Farmer change water )
Also increase aeration, gentle splashing of filter return, night time air pump etc for a some weeks (or permanently)

Bacteria can easily build up in substrate and water column (and filter media) with no visual changes or even increased nitrates (should you test your aquarium water), so whenever you experience unexpected fish losses, just increase maintenance 

When you get to a point where you want to introduce new fish, I suggest a rescape with thorough substrate cleaning, rinsing and trimming of plants, filter clean etc

VLOG Filipe Oliveira 60L Rescape


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## alto (1 Mar 2020)

jameson_uk said:


> Normally 50% weekly including a good vacuuming of the substrate


Despite this sounding sufficient, I’d still do increased water change for some weeks (if daily seems crazy, just try 2-3x weekly for as long as you can manage)


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## alto (1 Mar 2020)

jameson_uk said:


> Noticed a couple of my black neon tetras looking a little off (slightly grey, dull eyes).


If they improve with increased maintenance ...

If they don’t seem any better after a couple weeks, consider medicating

Try keeping a journal of fish activity/observations, include maintenance and whatever details come to mind

Any idea how old these fish might be?


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## jameson_uk (1 Mar 2020)

alto said:


> If they improve with increased maintenance ...
> 
> If they don’t seem any better after a couple weeks, consider medicating
> 
> ...



I do keep a maintenance journal but will also start noting fish observations.

Hard to say how old these fish are as I have added three batches of black neon tetras.  Somewhere between 3y8m and 1y8m


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## alto (1 Mar 2020)

Some report 3-5 years for SA tetras, others 5-10 years (or even more specifically 8-10 years) ... it usually becomes fairly obvious when fish are experiencing “age” (though long term chronic diseases such as some mycobacterium sp. can simulate ageing, fish symptoms with this disease can be species (both host and pathogen) dependent)

With tank bred stock (such as most black neons), the line breeding can be more a life span determinant than any other factor:  water temperature, water quality, foods, medications (including those before you purchased the fish), seasonal temperature variations (vs consistent aquarium temperatures), tankmates (re stress which may not be particularly obvious) etc


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## jameson_uk (16 Jul 2020)

So fast forward four months and I think this fish made a recovery and now seems fine. I did loose one of the tetras in this period but that one didn't have the same look as this.

After several fish had shown symptoms that could be linked to internal parasites I figured using a wormer wouldn't go a miss as there aren't many fish left. I dosed flukesolve (praziquantel based) which suggests it is suitable for regular use and safe for invertebrates. 

The three remaining tetras did seem to pick up and the I have had no further deaths.

One fish however developed some blotches a day or two after dosing. It has been fine and is active and eating well. I am wondering whether this might be as a result of the wormer doing its job and this is the damage left by the parasites or whether this is something else. It looks internal and the skin doesn't look broken and and as I said the fish seems to be behaving fine.


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## alto (16 Jul 2020)

jameson_uk said:


> there are only 6 tetras, 7 Cory, 5 Otos and some amanos left.


What’s the present fish count?

Wondering if it’s just the black neon numbers that have dropped from 6 to 3?

What size is this tank?


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## jameson_uk (16 Jul 2020)

alto said:


> What’s the present fish count?
> 
> Wondering if it’s just the black neon numbers that have dropped from 6 to 3?
> 
> What size is this tank?



Yes just tetras down to 3. Odd though as my records only show 2 dying since February (and one of those seems to have happened right at the beginning of March when I got distracted and let the water go cold during a water change). Now wondering why I don't have a record of the other fish.

The one I did euthanise looked ok but seemed to have swim bladder issues. I separated him but he never got any better and was struggling to stay upright.

Tank is 180l. I have been trying to get in two 50% water changes a week for a while now


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## alto (16 Jul 2020)

With that fish load in 180l, once you’ve done a good vacuum of the substrate and filter etc clean to sort out any possible buildup of organic waste/debris, you should be fine with a single weekly 50% water change - not to dissuade you from changing more water if that’s your preference 

I do wonder though if low level stress is affecting the tetras, as that’s a small shoal in a big area 

It does sound as if the Praziquantel has had some positive effect (I always do extra water changes when medicating, also if there were any actual “worm” parasite, then repeat the treatment after 2 weeks and possibly 6 weeks in case of eggs etc, note that time span is measured from when a previous treatment ended)


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## alto (16 Jul 2020)

jameson_uk said:


> let the water go cold during a water change


This may just be coincidence - I’d expect more than a single fish to be affected ... did you happen to record the temperature drop in the tank?

(though if a fish is already health challenged, it can take a relatively minor additional stressor to begin the down trend, 
eg, fish in shop seem OK, you get them home and they all show ich spots in the next couple days  while fish in the shop tank still look OK (and your other fish are still as usual - in the event new fish went direct into a community tank rather than a quarantine tank))


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## jameson_uk (17 Jul 2020)

alto said:


> With that fish load in 180l, once you’ve done a good vacuum of the substrate and filter etc clean to sort out any possible buildup of organic waste/debris, you should be fine with a single weekly 50% water change - not to dissuade you from changing more water if that’s your preference


This was something I started when fish started to show signs of illness and I have found I have been at home more recently 
I tend to give the substrate a good vacuum each water change and I have cleaned everything a couple of times. I will revert to weekly changes once my time gets limited again.



> I do wonder though if low level stress is affecting the tetras, as that’s a small shoal in a big area


I think at one point there were 15 or 17 in there but the odd one has dropped off here and there leaving just the three. I am reluctant to add any more whilst this one looks like that so will give it a month or so and see if there are any more deaths.

[Quite]It does sound as if the Praziquantel has had some positive effect (I always do extra water changes when medicating, also if there were any actual “worm” parasite, then repeat the treatment after 2 weeks and possibly 6 weeks in case of eggs etc, note that time span is measured from when a previous treatment ended)[/QUOTE]
I was planning on a second treatment after two weeks but never got round to it. I will do another one later. I have also considered using Esha NDX (levamisole) to cover all bases.



alto said:


> This may just be coincidence - I’d expect more than a single fish to be affected ... did you happen to record the temperature drop in the tank?


I have a feeling the water going in dropped to about 18°C and the tank is normally at 25°C. This fish floated to the top during the water change so I presume the stress killed it (as you said though it probably had something else and the stress tipped it over the edge).


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