# RCS die after 2 weeks in tank



## Jaap (22 Nov 2014)

Hello

I have a planted tank with 10 red cherry shrimp 4 amanos and 3 guppies. I am adding co2 and dosing estimative index. The temperature is at 23 Celsius.  

Last night I did a 30% water change after lights off and today I find 2 rcs dead.

Any ideas?

Thanks


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## Andy Thurston (22 Nov 2014)

Something nasty in the water you added?


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## Jaap (22 Nov 2014)

Not really...all other inverts and fish are fine plus this is my usual routine and from the same water source as always.


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## X3NiTH (22 Nov 2014)

Do the deceased shrimp show any signs of injury? 

Small mouthed fish may not be able to eat them whole but they will chase and nip at them enough to cause them injury and an untimely death.


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## Jaap (22 Nov 2014)

No injury and the tank is planted with plenty of hidding places


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## mr. luke (22 Nov 2014)

Is your water particularly soft?


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## Jaap (22 Nov 2014)

No...kH 9


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## Bhu (22 Nov 2014)

Hey Jaap! You don't seem to be having much luck these days! Were they large rcs? Maybe they were just old? I loose some now and then, but they are breeding so the colony lives on... Do you have an airstone to help with gassing off at night?


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## Jaap (22 Nov 2014)

Because I don't have much experience on rcs i cant k ow if they were big but i will guess and say yes...no i dont have an airstone but surface agitation is good enough for gas exchange....other inverts and fish and rcs are fine...yeah Bhu no luck at all


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## Jose (22 Nov 2014)

There was something in your wáter as stated before. Look at the clues: 2 dead rcs after a wáter change. Thats as clear as it gets. It could also be ammonia poisoning due to the change of pH but if you are doing wekly wáter changes this shouldnt be the case. Maybe you have copper or something in your wate.

Shrimp are much more delicate tan most fish, yes even CRS. This is why some people find it better to keep them in a low tech with minimal wáter changes, so that the changes are minimal.


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## kirk (23 Nov 2014)

Are we talking about crs or rcs I'm confused.  do you have a korilina? I've lost a few to those and also old age.


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## Jaap (23 Nov 2014)

By rcs I mean red cherry shrimp...no korilina...


I dont think its the water change because i have been doing this for the past 3 months from the same tap water and the fish or amano shrimp have never complaint...


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## Jose (23 Nov 2014)

How do you know there wasnt something maybe just this time in the water? What do you thinkcould be the problem? Lets debate the possibilities. If there were 2 deaths this rules out the age issue.


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## Jaap (23 Nov 2014)

I think we could rule out the possibility of having something in the water because only 2 shrimp were affected and no fish maybe...

I spot doses 1ml of Hydrogen Peroxide on one rock...maybe the 2 shrimp were close to the rock when I spot dosed it?


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## Jaap (23 Nov 2014)

Another RCS just dies...I still dont unferstand why...I haven't done anything today apart from dose my macros....does the MgSO4 kill them?


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## Jaap (23 Nov 2014)

My micronutrient EI solution contains some copper. Does this kill them in trace amount?
http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/fertilisers/chelated-trace.html


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## Jose (23 Nov 2014)

Nutrients in the EI doses wont kill them for sure. Peroxyde could be, specially spot treating. Maybe the one that died last got a bit weak with the treatment. I wouldnt recommend peroxyde but if you do it, research on the right doses and never throw it near shrimp. 
The copper is fine because its in a complexed form or its not free copper and the doses are low enough.


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## X3NiTH (24 Nov 2014)

The APF EI salts are safe for shrimp using the APF mix recipe, I've let my tank go 3 weeks without a water change and taken the TDS from 150 to near 400, no RCS problems, I have also overdosed 300ml of micro (not APF but similar) into my tank accidentally, didn't kill the shrimp. 

I have also sprayed hydrogen peroxide at 6% concentration on my bogwood to help rid it of some BBA, using a supposed safe limit of 0.025 per Litre I can dose 1.5ml to the tank over 24hrs, last time I used it I did 1.5ml in less than 2 minutes (spot treated, 10 squirts from a small spray bottle that does 0.15ml per squirt), more than 50% of the water was out of the tank at the time so everything got a good dosing, fish and shrimp were fine.

I have seen shrimp exhausted by being chased and nipped at by inquisitive small fish, they don't always live to fight another day, the hunt is continual until the fish go to sleep for the night.

I have also seen hungry RCS attack CRS that have just moulted and tried to pull the brain out the back of the carapace, looks like a piggy back but it's not really, especially post moult. I lost four female CRS to male CRS this way in the space of a few days when hunger outweighed the desire to mate.

So if you can discount that lot above then it's likely your water. From what I have read (haven't seen) is that there can be moulting problems when the tank temp is high and the water mineral content is high (body grows faster within a more mineralised shell and are crushed to death from within because they can't moult), if the water change water lowers the KH it can trigger a moult. If it's not that then there is something else present in the water that is harming them over time and they eventually succumb to its effects. Have you seen any of the RCS moult, have seen any of their castings?


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## Jose (24 Nov 2014)

X3NiTH said:


> I have also sprayed hydrogen peroxide at 6% concentration on my bogwood to help rid it of some BBA, using a supposed safe limit of 0.025 per Litre I can dose 1.5ml to the tank over 24hrs, last time I used it I did 1.5ml in less than 2 minutes (spot treated, 10 squirts from a small spray bottle that does 0.15ml per squirt), more than 50% of the water was out of the tank at the time so everything got a good dosing, fish and shrimp were fine.



The only thing here is that peroxide behaves different in each tank. I think things like organic matter, light, water changes or pH have an effect on it. There have also been a lot of cases where dozens have been killed this way. Also we dont really know how much he dosed so we cant really overlook it. Plus his shrimp seem to have died after a certain thing happened (2 in one day) so this is pointing towards a substance that was introduced or a chemical reaction taking place.


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## Jaap (24 Nov 2014)

2ml of hydrogen peroxi 3%....spot dose when tank was half empty...then added water and filled tank up...tank is 40L


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## Jose (24 Nov 2014)

Jaap said:


> 2ml of hydrogen peroxi 3%....spot dose when tank was half empty...then added water and filled tank up...tank is 40L



Sounds like a low dose but it might have still got to the shrimps. Who knows? I dont.


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## Jason Burk (24 Nov 2014)

Crystals being far more delicate than most shrimp could even become stressed and die if you add the new water too quickly. It does sound like its something to do with the water, thats the problem with using tap. Id recommend using RO water  
How are you adding your new water to the tank mate?

I would also be inclined to do a larger scale water change every week - just a 30% I would find to be too little and so overtime youre likely increasing the amount of copper in your tank. This, if that is the problem, would give a reason to your tank being fine after 3 months as you said and it only happening now.

I personally dose EI and co2, and every sunday I do a 40-50% water change with remineralised RO. I also remineralise the water with Bee Shrimp Minerals 

My tank is only a 94litre but it takes me a good hour to do a water change because I use a small siphen to slowly add the new water so my shrimp dont get shocked by the change  

Please feel free to ask any questions bud 
Thanks - Jason


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## Jose (24 Nov 2014)

He is keeping RCS (Red cherries) as far as Im concerned Jason. Yes Crystal reds are far more sensitive.

By the way Jason, you seem to be the proof that you can actually keep CRS in a high tech/ EI dosed tank. This is very Cool! Do you breed them? Any photos or links we can see.


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## Jason Burk (24 Nov 2014)

Jose said:


> He is keeping RCS (Red cherries) as far as Im concerned Jason. Yes Crystal reds are far more sensitive.
> 
> By the way Jason, you seem to be the proof that you can actually keep CRS in a high tech/ EI dosed tank. This is very Cool! Do you breed them? Any photos or links we can see.



Ahh right okay thanks, for some reason I was thinking the thread was about CRS haha!

- even so with the cherries Jaap, the suggestions I gave still stand  

And yes Jose I do breed them, ive just recently bred some pure red line in the tank  I only have the one tank currently, so I'm not doing a separate breeding programme with the different grades or anything like that, its just a mix match of everything in there.. Might possibly add some Blue Panda Pinto's at some point to mix things up and see what I can get  

Yep Ill try to add some pictures, the profile pic is the only current one I have - Im on my ipad and it doesnt seem to want to upload a picture.. I'll try tomorrow on my computer or something, hopefully thatll work! I dont want to clutter up this thread with my own pictures and things though so i'll most likely start a new one in the inverts section


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## Jason Burk (24 Nov 2014)

I'll share the plant info and things ive got on there too


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## Jose (24 Nov 2014)

Jason Burk said:


> Yep Ill try to add some pictures, the profile pic is the only current one I have - Im on my ipad and it doesnt seem to want to upload a picture.. I'll try tomorrow on my computer or something, hopefully thatll work! I dont want to clutter up this thread with my own pictures and things though so i'll most likely start a new one in the inverts section



Cool! really looking forward to that.I can see you are into more expensive varieties Blue Panda Pinto's look just awsome mate. I was thinking about keeping the blue variety of red cherries. Are you sure your gene mixing is going to give good results cause it might just spoil the line. Im a bit ignorant on shrimp yes.
Also I am not sure if you know how to load pictures into a post. If you dont, just have a look here its quite easy really.
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/how-do-you-post-a-picture.2618/


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## Jason Burk (24 Nov 2014)

Jose said:


> Cool! really looking forward to that.I can see you are into more expensive varieties Blue Panda Pinto's look just awsome mate. I was thinking about keeping the blue variety of red cherries. Are you sure your gene mixing is going to give good results cause it might just spoil the line. Im a bit ignorant on shrimp yes.
> Also I am not sure if you know how to load pictures into a post. If you dont, just have a look here its quite easy really.
> http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/how-do-you-post-a-picture.2618/



Well Im a bit weird in that I don't mind about the line of breeding or anything like that, any offspring I get will be good in my eyes  Ive got some TiBee genes mixed in with lots of my shrimp, I mean yeah youre right I might not get as nice offspring but on the other hand I might get some cool variants  

And alright thanks! I probably dont, im quite new to ukaps haha


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