# Am I gassing my fish with CO2?



## Jafooli

Hi

I am injecting my CO2 via a in tank ceramic diffuser, I'm now cleaning it each week and its producing a fine mist. The whole tank looks fizzy now, I'm even now getting a film of CO2 bubbles on the surface, which is odd as I do have good surface agitation.

My tank is 200 litres, low light I presume, moderately planted, I'm just waiting for the plants to take off properly as there all quite small still.

So the problem is around the last 2-3 hours of the photoperiod my fish start acting strange, they either hide in a corner, or they seem to stay in one spot and just gasp, there mouths move rapid, its not natural behaviour I can see there obviously having problems breathing right. I know how to fix the problem, I just turn CO2 down... but I have never ever achieved a green drop checker in this tank and after going through a brown diatom mess I am now concentrating on flow and most importantly CO2 which is now why I'm facing this issue again. My safe level for the fish is 1BPS. When I go to 1.3 or 1.5 my fish don't like it. I guess different ppm levels can be more toxic to fish in different tanks as there are many things that play a role? so maybe using the green drop checker as a guide is not a good guide for me, until my plants spread out more, then maybe I should try to increase.

Is it worse to have CO2 bubbles everywhere in a tank? aka do the fish struggle more because its not dissolved and the bubbles are more concentrated? Someone please help me with that question as I'm paranoid.

I know many people on here use inline so maybe its more safe for the fish as the bubbles have dissolved before it reaches the output, and there for the CO2 is now dissolved so its not covering the fish in loads of concentrated CO2 bubbles.

I've always had this problem since the beginning of my tank,  its been planted differently at certain times but always been a issue. when I had a 90l my drop checker was always green at 1BPS. 2BPS on this 200l, my fish would die, I've already lost some fish to this and enough is enough now, that's why I'm thinking of just using liquid carbon instead.

I've also tried the diffuser in my filter, I see quite a lot of CO2 was getting trapped, and all night the filters were making a noise, also the fish still acted strange with that method. ( 2x internal filters )

I'm sure I read 30ppm of CO2 is safe for fish and inhabitants, so if my drop checker is still a light blue and not green, but yet my fish act odd, and Its still blue, something is either wrong with my drop checker, or the co2 bubbles are more deadly to fish, or my plants are not big enough to produce enough oxygen to keep a balance in the tank.

I'm also using a pre mixed 4dkh solution which use to work great on my old tank, so I think its the real stuff. Hope someone can just let me know on why I'm having this problem.


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## NatureBoy

I've never used drop checker or bubble counter...

I use pH profile relative to degassed pH. Pearling plants and fish distress are then the two markers to look for, again this is all done on a day when you can monitor the injection.

Fundamentally don't let bps / dropchecker override your observations that you are causing discomfort

Try a pH spot check of the water before injection and then throughout until gas off.

at the end of the day, how are the plants / algae?


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## Jafooli

Cheers for the reply,

I've just come through a bad time with diatoms, but I've never had any kind of algae outbreak before and most plants seem to have thrived in the past.

I still need to get a digital ph reader, which will probably be around a month away. But at least for now I can take some of your advice and go by observations and not worry as much, as its very stressful. I don't understand why my fish are acting like that even though its not green. I've never read anything about someone in the same situation as me so its odd.

My only guess is the CO2 bubbles from the diffuser effect the fish much more than a tank with pure dissolved CO2 from an inline diffuser.

So I guess I will keep it at a safe level for now, I might also turn my CO2 off an hour before lights out. I presume two hours might be to much.

Thanks again its just annoying as I need some kind of idea what my CO2 levels are and have no clue why my fish are stressed under a blue drop checker, I guess it will have to wait till I get a PH reader. Even then if my CO2 is low Its not like I could adjust it as the fish cant handle it. I will keep monitoring plants and lets hope there getting enough other wise I might change to liquid carbon, but I don't want to give up as pressurized CO2 is meant to be much better and I don't want to use both as I might be wasting money on fire extinguishers for nothing.

Thanks again.


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## Iain Sutherland

if your fish are struggling with the amount of co2 then (first off reduce injection then) increase surface movement to ensure adequate gas exchange,  its quite possible that once you start to raise the co2 levels again you will end injecting more co2 than your are now to find a balance where the livestock and plants are both happy.

I always think of it as there are 3 elements to co2 injection - how much (and how) you put in the tank, how its moved around the tank and how much surface movement you have.  Change any of the 3 and it will have consequences to the concentration of co2 and o2 in the tank, ergo, consequences to livestock and plants.

Im prepared to be corrected here but,  co2 and o2 dont inhabit the same space, if you have low o2 then any amount of co2 will just make life intolerable for livestock, equally its possible to have pretty high co2 levels and happy livestock as long as O2 is also high.

The livestock health is always the priority though, observing your fish and plants will always tell you more than a DC which is just a rough guide.  
Try putting the DC right over the diffuser, if it doesnt change then the reagent is likely knackered.


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## Jafooli

Thanks Iain

That explains quite a lot, I also think you are correct regarding CO2 and O2.
At least I have some new ideas to try now. First I will try your method with the DC just to see what happens.

My surface agitation is quite high but I guess I can try and find the limit before it starts to break the surface, and then like you say I may find my self injecting more CO2, I presume because of the quicker gassing off, but at least I will get higher oxygen levels and hopefully find that balance. I may try all of this once I get a ph reader as It will give me more of a picture to whats really going on. For now I will monitor plants and keep CO2 in the safe zone.

My plants are not very large at the moment so I'm considering lowering my photoperiod from 9 hours to 8 and CO2 to turn off an hour before lights out. That will be a total of 2 hours less CO2 injection so that should help for the mean time and to be extra safe even with my CO2 in the safe zone I don't want to risk my fish suffering anymore.

Thanks again for helping.


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## Spnl

I agree with Iain, this looks like an oxygen problem not a CO2 problem.
1-2 bps in a 200l tank is very unlikely to be enough to reach 30ppm (or whatever your desired level is ). In PFK recently George Farmer suggested about 1bps per 50l water as a ball park figure, and that seems about right in my experience.
I think your drop checker is telling the truth, you do not have a lot of CO2 in the water. You can confirm this with pH readings if you like but both will tell you the same thing.
However CO2 will reduce the ability of the fish to take up oxygen, and this could be what is happening. So with better oxygen levels you should be able To add more co2, getting up to a conventional amount. Of course it is a good idea to have good oxygen levels anyway, not just to enable us to inject CO2!
Note that CO2 has no effect on the oxygen level in the tank, it just affects the ability of fish to use oxygen, and if the O2 level is marginal then increasing CO2 could tip them over.
The usual sign of hypoxia is gasping at the surface but clinical signs are always variable.


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## Jafooli

Cheers Spnl

I have raised my internal filters a bit more, which has slightly increased surface agitation as I already have a lot, if I go any higher my outlet's will be sticking out the water, how much surface agitation is to much?
I've never once witnessed any fish gasp at the surface, but what I do witness is unusual behaviour, restlessness, fish hiding in corner, gasping - not at the surface though, just a total behaviour change compared to there normal behaviour which is mostly occurring in the last couple of hours. When I've lost a couple of fish in the past due to CO2, what I believe was CO2 is the fish seems to lose its ability to swim straight, it either swims on its side, upside down, or just loses the ability to swim at all and just floats around in the current until it lands somewhere, then just breaths rapidly. I guess its a bit like swim bladder, but the reason I think its because of CO2, is this has only happened when I've raised BPS and then inspected the other fish in the tank to see there in stress. The next day with low CO2, all fish are fine again, and no rapid breathing etc, all doing there own thing out in the open.

Does what I described above sound like CO2 toxicity? or another issue? like I say it only happens when I've had high CO2 levels this is why I've not gave it a second thought, unless there is something else in my water attacking my weaker fish leading to swim bladder, but then again 50% water change each week and a clean tank, I just don't know any more. As for now I will focus on getting oxygen in the tank but I can't do much more than what I already have and at 1BPS of CO2, compared to what you said above about what George Farmer suggests, that's around 4BPS in a 200l, it seems like this could be quite challenging, which makes it even more bizarre to why my fish act odd.


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## ceg4048

Jafooli said:


> Is it worse to have CO2 bubbles everywhere in a tank? aka do the fish struggle more because its not dissolved and the bubbles are more concentrated? Someone please help me with that question as I'm paranoid.


Jafooli, you're running around in circles.  Just turn the gas off 2-3 hours earlier than you are doing now. Why make things more complicated?

Cheers,


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## Jafooli

Thanks for your reply Clive

I was just concerned that the bubbles may be higher concentrated then pre dissolved CO2 from an inline diffuser, there for effecting the fish to breath efficiently.

I will turn gas off 2 hours before, is not 3 hours a bit to much? that would cause fluctuation which could lead to algae? I know I cant exactly start monitoring my CO2 levels until I get a PH reader, but I thought I could at least get a higher bubble rate then 1BPS, and I also believe my distribution of CO2 is great. My whole tank is covered in a CO2 mist, reaching all areas of my tank.

Hmm the more I do research on swim bladder the more it seems that was the cause of the deaths, I did have a khuli loach also die about a week ago with a large lump in its body, which also is a symptom of swim bladder.

I just cant understand why these problems only occur when I raise CO2, its as if the high CO2 is stressing the fish then maybe its leading to swim bladder, how can I eliminate any nasties in my water which may be attacking my fish. I looked at a product for swim bladder, but I've read a lot on here about water changes are key.... so how many water changes would I need to remove any nasties or lower there levels.

I think for now I will just keep CO2 low, buy some liquid carbon from Aqua Essentials, I presume there own carbon is as good as any, and when I get a digital PH meter and record my own PH profile then I can start with the increasing etc, but hope someone can just answer me about the best way of removing any bacterial or parasites that might be in my tank effecting my fish, I presume there always there, but they may be in high numbers, and also regarding turning CO2 off 3 hours before, as I don't want BBA etc.


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## Spnl

What you described from the past does sound like CO2 toxicity.
Co2 has several effects. Firstly it stimulates respiration (at least it does in land animals and I assume that is the cause of the more rapid gill movements seen in fish).
It will cause acidosis, akin to respiratory acidosis in mammals, and this could lead to hypoxia if O2 is not good.
Thirdly CO2 is an anaesthetic. At higher levels the fish will start to lose conciseness, which I guess is what happened to your fish. And of course this explains why they generally recover so well.
Exactly what signs the fish show will depend on the combination of factors, including temperature. Low pH will also make CO2 have more direct toxic/anaesthetic effect, as it increases the proportion that is found as dissolved gas, as opposed to bicarbonate which is much safer for fish. But that is unlikely to be a significant at usual pH levels (6 to 7 ish).
Yours does sound like a really odd problem. I wish I could get high CO2 levels with a few bubbles per second!!


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## Jafooli

Hi Spnl

It seems this problem is odd, I'm now stuck in two worlds, I know for a fact all these problems are happening when I try to increase CO2.
The rapid gill movements and gasping from there mouths is the number one symptom and effects all fish in the tank.

My PH from my tap is 8, when left 24 hours over night, and in my tank its 8, but with CO2 injection that obviously changes. When I purchased 4 Panda Cory's one died 24 hours later, I got a replacement at the shop and they tested my water, the guy said it was because my PH was 7 and not 8, all there tropical tanks are at 8 and I had to explain well I use CO2, bla bla, he was not a nice guy to deal with lol.... as he was convinced to try and find some kind of problem. So on that day I obviously had a drop of 1 PH, and I have really high KH.

I noticed my clown loach yesterday swimming on its side for a few seconds, and then returning back to normal, a few days prior to this when I tried to increase CO2, my clown loaches never came out there ornament once, and other fish were acting odd again at night. I've since turned it down, and then made this thread. As Clive knows I had deficiency problems because of an increase in CO2, I've solved them for now, and am now trying to increase CO2 again so this is why I'm facing this. Sorry if it sounds like I'm putting my fish through hell, but that's why I made this post so I can understand what's happening. I'm not sure if its because of all the CO2 mist everywhere as I'm sure I read swim bladder can be also caused when gas becomes trapped, I think there referring to oxygen bubbles though and not CO2.

Like mentioned above I will keep BPS low, and focus on oxygen, get some liquid carbon, wait till I get a digital PH reader then take it from there. But I don't think my CO2 is has high as what you think, as surely my drop checker would be green in all areas of my tank.


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## ceg4048

Jafooli said:


> I will turn gas off 2 hours before, is not 3 hours a bit to much? that would cause fluctuation which could lead to algae? I know I cant exactly start monitoring my CO2 levels until I get a PH reader, but I thought I could at least get a higher bubble rate then 1BPS, and I also believe my distribution of CO2 is great. My whole tank is covered in a CO2 mist, reaching all areas of my tank.



Yes, CO2 is the most toxic thing we add to the tank. This is no secret, and that's why it has to be managed . You don't need 8 hours of gas. CO2 is super duper important at the beginning of the photoperiod, but strange as it may seem, it's not very important near the end of the photoperiod. That's why most of the  CO2 related problems are actually occurring in the morning. That's also why we advise to get that big pH drop by lights on.

Forget about all that other stuff. If you want to check to see if the symptoms of the fish is due to the CO2 then do a massive water change at the onset of symptoms and see if the symptoms disappear. If they do, then you have pretty good evidence that CO2 is contributing to the problem.

Cheers,


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## tim

Jafooli said:


> Hi Spnl
> 
> It seems this problem is odd, I'm now stuck in two worlds, I know for a fact all these problems are happening when I try to increase CO2.
> The rapid gill movements and gasping from there mouths is the number one symptom and effects all fish in the tank.
> 
> My PH from my tap is 8, when left 24 hours over night, and in my tank its 8, but with CO2 injection that obviously changes. When I purchased 4 Panda Cory's one died 24 hours later, I got a replacement at the shop and they tested my water, the guy said it was because my PH was 7 and not 8, all there tropical tanks are at 8 and I had to explain well I use CO2, bla bla, he was not a nice guy to deal with lol.... as he was convinced to try and find some kind of problem. So on that day I obviously had a drop of 1 PH, and I have really high KH.
> 
> I noticed my clown loach yesterday swimming on its side for a few seconds, and then returning back to normal, a few days prior to this when I tried to increase CO2, my clown loaches never came out there ornament once, and other fish were acting odd again at night. I've since turned it down, and then made this thread. As Clive knows I had deficiency problems because of an increase in CO2, I've solved them for now, and am now trying to increase CO2 again so this is why I'm facing this. Sorry if it sounds like I'm putting my fish through hell, but that's why I made this post as I can understand what's happening. I'm not sure if its because of all the CO2 mist everywhere as I'm sure I read swim bladder can be also caused when gas becomes trapped, I think there referring to oxygen bubbles though and not CO2.
> 
> Like mentioned above I will keep BPS low, and focus on oxygen, get some liquid carbon, wait till I get a digital PH reader then take it from there. But I don't think my CO2 is has high as what you think, as surely my drop checker would be green in all areas of my tank.


Tbh the guy is full of s!!t if he was keeping Corries responsibly his ph would be much lower than 8 lol, as Clive states co2 is most important at lights on in my 90cm I have to have it on 3hrs before lights but it goes off 3 hours before lights too, play around with injection rate timing etc until you find an equilibrium for plants and fish.


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## Jafooli

Cheers for the replies,

I've learnt something new, I didn't know people turned there CO2 of so early, the earliest I've read from other threads on here is a hour before, and I just presumed that was because the CO2 will last at a high enough level for the last hour. So glad I now know that, as every little bit of knowledge helps.

Is there a possibility that the CO2 gas is getting trapped in the fish, then causing swim bladder like symptoms? as I read that's how swim bladder can also happen, from trapped oxygen. In this case it would be trapped CO2, it would explain all the symptoms if it was CO2 toxicity and then the swim problems due to the trapped CO2 bubbles from there rapid gasping.

Yeah Tim he was, and I had spent weeks trying to get hold of Panda Corys, and they said on the phone they had some come in, I went straight up there in the morning and to my surprise there were over a few hundred in the small tank. They were tiny though, but they all seemed healthy and active. Next day one had died, went back with my water and the dead fish in the bag as they wanted evidence. He was trying to explain to me, its a common problem and its normally due to ammonia of a tank that fish die, and bla bla, he then read each result in front of me as if he was going to catch me out, and he looked real shocked when all my readings were great, then when he read the PH 7 he went off on one, saying yeah that's why, I don't know how your tank has that we keep all our fish at 8 bla bla, (even though PH fluctuation from CO2 don't effect the fish I believe) and when we went over to the tank to get my replacement there were quite a few dead ones in there, so it wasn't just mine that died. I didn't have the nerve to speak up but he gave me another lecture while holding the bag in the air with the replacement cory and he said you can clearly see this is one healthy active cory so if it dies we can't offer you a guarantee no more. Either he was having a bad day or he didn't like me. I wasn't sure about even putting the new cory in my tank, but I did and this was many many months ago and all my fish have been fine thank god, but I seem to find many people at fish shops seem to think they know everything, and I always overhear information that's not correct and quite shocking.

Thanks again for everyone's help.


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## tim

You will find lfs will try to baffle you with bulls!!t constantly, I like to do it back to them  seriously fish is a good point of call for species research mate, ime even if you have a semi thriving planted tank you'll give your fish a better environment than the lfs tank they came from, always acclimatise them slowly I use the drip method for fish and shrimps and that works for me, get the co2 in before lights on and the plants will provide oxygen for themselves and livestock, try not to have too much residual co2 at the end of the photoperiod whether through surface agitation or good timing management, it's all a learning curve mate, everyday is a school day


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## Jafooli

lol I would pay to see Clive in a fish shop when they try to sell him a nitrate test kit or when they go on about some other rubbish, I wonder if he just goes along with it. 
If I had the confidence like you, I would be like yeah I got a new fire extinguisher yesterday, and my CO2 system is all up and running so need some plants. Also any chance you some potassium nitrate laying about, need those nitrates! I Would love to see there reactions. 

Cheers again.


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## tim

Ha they wouldn't know what potassium nitrate was, you'll get there jafooli, ukaps made me I've only been in the hobby 3 yrs I put all my faith in Clive, plantbrain, and all the other wonderful ukaps posters and I haven't looked back.


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## Jafooli

ceg4048 said:


> You don't need 8 hours of gas



My CO2 comes on at 9 and now goes of at 5. I did not reduce my photoperiod in the end.

So the CO2 is now going off 3 hours before lights out! , so you mention I don't need 8 hours of gas, but how did you work this out? Can I switch it off even more earlier than 3 hours? lets say 6 hours of CO2, that would be switching CO2 off at 3. For me that would be great, my fish don't suffer around that time, so if you can let me know Clive if that's ok that would be great, and if I do switch it of 5 hours before, what signs do I need to look for with the plants encase its a problem, I have no idea how you worked it out. I'm sure some people keep there lights on for 12 hours, so 8 hours of CO2, would mean 4 hours without, and if they switched it off more earlier, the tank would go hours with out CO2 being injected. Do plants take less CO2 during the day compared to the first 1-2 hours when lights come on?

Would be interesting to know, with out it becoming complicated, but hope you can let me know, as I can't really see my surface agitation improving any more. Today the fish seemed fine so seems good, but if I can go back another hour, would be great., especially as I'm still injecting at 8 hours so thought I would ask.


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## ceg4048

Well it's very difficult to work out exactly what to do from afar. The only thing you have to concentrate on is that if you are going to have only 5 hours of CO2 in 8 hours of light then the CO2 in those 5 hours must be excellent and it must occur at the front end, not at the back end or in the middle. You have injection rate, surface agitation and timing as parameters to work with and this assumes that your distribution method as well as gas diffusion methods are also excellent.

From a practical standpoint, turning the gas on 5 hours before the lights is not a very good solution. You know, more or less what kind of pH drop you need so use the other two parameters in any combination in order to drop the pH to the desired value by lights on. I cannot tell you what bubble rate to use. You have to experiment with that. 

Ideally, it would only require about an hour of gas injection to saturate the water with CO2 and to drop the pH the target amount by the time the lights come on. However, if that injection rate continues for 5 hours it may make the fish uncomfortable. You may have to reduce the injection rate and settle for a smaller pH drop so that you don't gas the fish, or you can make minor adjustments to the timing so that instead of 1 hour, you turn the gas on 1.5 hours prior, with a smaller injection rate. Or you may use a bit more surface agitation to moderate the gas concentration buildup.

This difficulty in zooming in on the correct injection technique is the origin of my rants against people who are in such a hurry to add fish to the tank. It leads them on a path to do silly things to accelerate the cycling of the tanks because they just can't wait to dump fish into the tank. Then they have these problems and the presence of the fish handcuffs them. 

So, the fact that you have fish will make it very difficult to figure out the best combination of bubble rate, timing and agitation that satisfies both the plants and the fish. Here is a sample routine that Houdini might use:
1. You need to be able to measure the pH. 
2. You need to be home during the photoperiod in order to monitor the health of the fish. 
3. Choose an injection rate and turn the gas on 1 hour prior to lights on.
   3a. Do not ask other people what injection rate they use. Their tank is not your tank. Their answer will be irrelevant.
        YOU select the initial rate based on your  previous observations of how the gas behaves in your tank.
4. Compare the pH drop after 1 hour to your target pH drop.
   4a. If the pH drop meets your target, then monitor the fish behavior during the rest of the photoperiod.
     4a1. If signs of toxicity is detected within the first 1/3rd of the photoperiod then this indicates the injection rate is excessive.
     4a2. The pH measurement should confirm this as the value will fall below your target.
   4b. If the pH drop exceeds the target then the injection rate will most likely be excessive.
   4c. If the pH drop does not meet target then this indicates either the injection rate is too low or the agitation is excessive.
5. Based on the results of step 4, the next day make adjustments to the timing, agitation and injection rate and repeat step 4.
6. If you run out of time by which you can monitor the tank you always have the option of turning off the lights and CO2 until you have the time to monitor. This keeps the fish safe, saves gas and reduces the stress on the plants. 
If it's a week before you have time again, remember that the CO2 would have completely off-gassed during that time (which does not happen with the daily CO2 injection cycle) so that when you start this sequence again the pH drop won't be as much as it was previously. Don't overreact to this. Keep records and be systematic in your approach. Make minor adjustments based on the previous results.

Cheers,


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## Victor

If I keep the CO2 on 24 h a day, there are any problems?


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## ceg4048

There are always problems with CO2. It's toxic. You will just have different problems than the person who does not have CO2 on 24 hours a day. Learn to manage the problems for whatever method you use.

Cheers,


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## Jafooli

Thanks Clive,

Are you referring to yourself as Houdini now? 

I will use your the step by step method you provided, so obviously I am going to have to look into getting a digital ph reader to do this.
If one is using liquid carbon as well, is there more room for error? for example, if I can get a PH profile that stays stable, but the drop is not as much as it can be, will the liquid carbon make up for this? rather than risking the stability to get a bigger drop.

Cheers again for your help, also my photoperiod is 9 hours not 8  so I guess the 5 hours will have to be perfect, and also my CO2 switches on 2 hours before, but I think I get the message, It should only take a hour before lights on for the PH to drop, well I can't work it all out now as I need a ph reader, then I can figure out my own tank and see what I need to do, I'm sure I could always make a PH profile thread when I get some readings and data. Its not easy this CO2 business, I can't believe I was once using a 2 litre bottle and yeast, and now I'm realising how hard it is, and I'm using a regulator and a bubble counter, and there all irrelevant anyway. Hopefully I will get there in the end, I'm sure it will also help when my plants get bigger as they were all half dead few weeks back, so when they do get growing hopefully oxygen levels will also rise as there current size is not helping the cause.


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## ceg4048

Jafooli said:


> If one is using liquid carbon as well, is there more room for error? for example, if I can get a PH profile that stays stable, but the drop is not as much as it can be, will the liquid carbon make up for this? rather than risking the stability to get a bigger drop.


Hi mate,
             Yes, liquid carbon counts as supplementary CO2, so although less pH drop means that there is less gas saturation in the water, after the plants absorb the liquid then there will be "additional CO2" available inside the plant. In this sense, yes there is more room for error. But, liquid carbon is expensive - and it also has it's own toxicity issues, so all that has to be taken into account.

Cheers,


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## Jafooli

Cheers Clive,

To be honest, its all stressing me out. I've never had a thriving tank with plants and when I did it was when I knew nothing about this plant hobby, I had a hygrophila grow out of my water and the time I did a water change the whole plant was burnt from where it reached the light's in the hood which was a shock. Back in them days my plants would grow and I had no idea how much was actually going on. The same plant nearly 2 years on, and it don't even grow more than half the tank, and everything in my tank seems like it don't want to grow, even though now I'm full of much more knowledge and providing these plants a much better environment.

I've managed to aim my output nozzles at a upward slope, the surface looks more like a fast river current right now, and I've lowered CO2 back to 1BPS so hopefully that will up my oxygen levels more. Then I can slowly focus on finding the balance.

Its hard to want to carry on sometimes. I think it might be just better for me to go with just liquid carbon and wait till I can get plants to actually grow before I even inject CO2, But I've already purchased another fire extinguisher so I will continue, its just I don't want to waste my money on a PH reader, to then see no improvement as I'm not the best at all this complicated stuff even though I want to be, its so hard and I don't get why my plants are not growing. I think I'm purchase some more plants, some liquid carbon, keep with the CO2, maybe take a chance and buy the PH meter and hope I can get experienced enough to achieve what others have here.

I will also do some research on toxic effects of liquid carbon as I've not done much research on that, and I don't want to have multiple problems, I will also buy aqua essentials own brand, I hope its just as good as the top brands. Thanks for your help. I'm sure I will get there in the end.


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## EdwinK

To Victor. No, there should not be, except economy. I'm using CO2 24/7


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## Jafooli

Hey just an update, sorry about the depressing reply above I last made..

Well Its another day now, but another day where I woke up to a dead fish, so that's not happened for a couple of months, but the same scenario happened as I mentioned earlier in this thread. This fish seemed to act weakened to the others, and singled him self, this has also happened when I've noticed the CO2 symptoms. The fish singles its self out, then loses its ability to swim and then dies, so I was hoping he would make it, but wasn't to be.

I have turned CO2 right down as you know, upped surface agitation to the highest I've ever had, Today I tested my PH with API kit, and it was 7.4, this was like 11:30, so CO2 been on 2 and half hours.
My tap water is normally 8 so I would expect my tank to be just below 8 or at 8, like I said earlier as-well the guy in a shop once went off his rocker when he found my PH at 7. So that's a big PH drop but back then my tank was thriving.
I didn't test to see how low my PH is, I just did a high range PH test. I can't believe its that low, and all I have is a piece of wood in the tank. Well I've decided to make a video and just post it here, so maybe Clive or someone else can see something wrong. I'm totally confused, I have no idea why my tank is crashing, plants don't even grow no more, they produce like a baby leaf then stop, then repeat. I've turned CO2 off now as my FE is nearly empty and I've still not received my new one, but hopefully I get my liquid carbon today, and when I get my new FE I can hook that up. So here is the video and I'm also uploading a video of my old 90 litre I managed to find, its not great, but I just wanted to show how my plants have grown before, and I sadly could not find any with my 200 litre tank, as I've once had this tank a massive jungle, the plants would just go berserk to the point the tank was complete dark inside. Which was my aim since I have rasbora espei, and as you can see now its empty and looks half dead. Ignore the GSA on one of my leafs, and the hair algae on the wood, this has appeared weeks back, and I left that one leaf as I had already cut many, and the wood I need to clean. I need to replant the uprooted cutting, as I've tried to propagate many plants into more, the crypts were huge but now you can see I've split them and threw the rest away. So it looks more bare but there's now more individual plants in there, I did this with most of the plants and also binned all plants that had the worse diatoms on from a few weeks back. I hope the video gives some kind of idea or help to my problems.



Also most of my fish now swim with there heads down, so at an angle. I also read this can be swim bladder, I'm not sure if its CO2 toxicity leading to swim bladder. I've not fed in 4 days. Later I will feed. The problems are not as bad now I've lowered CO2 and timed it to switch of earlier, but not happy about how my fish are swimming, and for the video I had just switched the CO2 on to show you the distribution even though the diffuser could do with bleaching again as its not much of a mist but still reaching all areas of the tank, not sure if the video does it justice and also its at 1bps. Also you can't see it much but the rummy noses in that video were breathing a bit more rapid already its like they know when the diffuser is on, its hardly noticeable, but if I left that on for say 5 hours, they would go in a corner and gasp rapidly. Something ain't right and once again all 3 clown loaches were hiding under the filters which you can't see as there inside them lol, but they say bigger fish are more prone to the toxicity? and I'm already sure one cant balance right.


Here are couple images I had when I was selling some mini water lettuce on ebay, you can see some of the growth from other plants/leafs and once again my tank was thriving back then. But sadly I have no pictures of the tank its self.
http://oi59.tinypic.com/28chg9h.jpg
http://oi59.tinypic.com/v5vdah.jpg

I found a video of me feeding my fish like a year or two ago on my Fluval roma 90, and once again not full tank but you can see the plants were great and always reaching the surface.



Oh also forgot, Next week I am going to buy a PH meter from amazon:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Waterproof-Temperature-automatic-Calibration-Screwdrivers/dp/B005LDT5NE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1394802182&sr=8-1&keywords=ph meter

Other wise we will be going around in circles, so hopefully this will help as well.
Anyway my liquid carbon has now arrived and some plants so going to check them out. I did research to liquid carbon toxicity and cant find much, so if I dose the recommend amount I should be ok I hope.


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## dw1305

Hi all,
A lot of people won't agree with me, but I can't really see any advantage to CO2 for the majority of planted tank keepers. 

For me the main problem is that, however careful you are, there is the ever present risk of asphyxiating your fish. As well as the problems with direct toxicity, you have sub-lethal effects on your fauna as well.

Added CO2 allows you to grow plants that aren't really adapted to under-water life submerged, and it promotes plant growth when other nutrients aren't limiting. The pay-off is that you need to do a lot more maintenance to keep your tank in balance, and if things go wrong, they go wrong really quickly.

This is fine if you want to enter aquascaping contests, or you have a burning desire to re-scape your tank every couple of weeks, or just love gadgets, but my suspicion would be that, even on this forum, most of us don't. 

Personally I don't want quick plant growth, I want a stable, resilient tank that provides a healthy environment for the fish. 

If I go away for a couple of weeks, I want to come back to tank where both plants and fauna look pretty much how they did when I left them. 

If my tanks look much the same this year as they looked last year I regard that as a success.

How can you achieve this? It really is as simple as have a lot of plants, including floater and/or emergents, and only add any nutrients when the plants need them, via the "Duckweed Index" : <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/low-maintainence-long-term-sustrate.14400/>. 

It is a KISS solution, and it works.

cheers Darrel


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## NatureBoy

turn CO2 up..fish die....turn it down...fish don't die...have you thought about using the _low range pH test kit_? (the high range stops at 7.4) yeesh makes me wonder if CO2 injection needs a permit from the fish shop.


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## BigTom

I'm pretty much of Darrel's philosophy too. If CO2 is stressing you out there's no reason you can't get excellent results without it. Less expense, less hassle, less risk to fish, far more leeway for making mistakes.


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## Jafooli

Cheers Darrel for your input.

I read the thread you provided but am still not that clued up with the "Duckweed Index" I get the concept and I presume I just look at the duckweed and that will let me know what nutrient to add etc, and as there floating they can get access to CO2.

I know you like your science lol, as most replies I've read from you in other threads, my head just explodes lol so go easy with me lol, but I'm a bit confused as from what I know the plants need a source of carbon other wise they won't grow efficiently and then the plant will look for food else where and eats its self alive kind of thing as it needs carbon to make use of the other nutrients? So how does that work? I can't see where they will get the CO2 from, as unlike the floating duckweed they don't have much access to CO2 apart from what the fish produce, and if its a large heavily planted tank, surely the plants will show deficiencies?

I also would like a tank with a healthy environment, I just presumed the whole pressurized CO2 does that, as it makes the plant's grow better there for producing more oxygen during the day. I'm not sure to give up with everything I've learned regarding CO2 and EI, to then try the Duckweed Index, does it take more skill or knowledge, as if you miss a deficiency on the duckweed the plants might start to suffer before I have had time to figure out the deficiency, then the algae will attack, also I see floating plants don't like much surface agitation, on the pictures above I posted I had to have minimum surface agitation for the water lettuce to grow.

Natureboy, I know having high CO2 = fish dying, and turning it down they don't.. its the whole reason for this thread, what's happening? this tank use to be fine at a higher bubble rate, the whole gasping thing is now happening with lower bubble rates, I'm not sure if its because of less plant mass in the tank, so therefore to much CO2 is staying in the water column, or increasing during the day.

Regarding low range ph, I don't see the need for me to do that test, I have high KH I think last time it was around 12 KH, and the lowest I've had is 8KH, so If I'm correct at say 12KH I should probably only need a 0.5 drop, so I already know from high range ph I've got a 0.6 drop, why would it matter if my PH was 7, its obvious something is wrong in my tank, if it were 7 my drop checker would be green, its a blue as it comes. + the api color chart is nearly impossible to determine the low ph, the colours are all the same near enough. So I will wait till I get a ph meter, and I don't understand the LFS permit phrase I'm afraid.

Thanks for the help and replies


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## Jafooli

Cheers Bigtom, so could I achieve better results with just dosing liquid carbon? and removing all my CO2 set up? I am not after pearling or growth rates, I am after plants that will grow at there own speed, stay healthy. Overall a medium-heavily planted tank with happy fish that I can sit down and enjoy. I have achieved this before with this tank and my previous tank, and I was using pressurized CO2 then, but its just coming to much of a challenge at this moment in time.


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## BigTom

Jafooli said:


> Cheers Bigtom, so could I achieve better results with just dosing liquid carbon? and removing all my CO2 set up? I am not after pearling or growth rates, I am after plants that will grow at there own speed, stay healthy. Overall a medium-heavily planted tank with happy fish that I can sit down and enjoy. I have achieved this before with this and my previous tank, and I was using pressurized CO2 then, but its just coming a challenge at this moment in time.



Well, I don't know about 'better' results, but certainly good results, and I meant with no carbon dosing at all - neither CO2 nor liquid carbon. But you can still grow plants - here's a couple of shots of my tank that has a pondsoil and sand substrate, no carbon addition of any sort and practically no fert dosing - you just need a bit more patience.


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## Jafooli

Cheers Tom,

I did see your tank in your journal of bucket of mud, while there was so many pages I didn't exactly read it all lol, I thought you was using some kind of fertilized soil but obviously not, which I don't know much about all CEC substrates etc. I didn't know it was just pond soil and sand. I use Eco complete.

So I guess it can be achieved, I guess it explains why the plants in my girlfriends shrimp tank grow better than in my tank, and its in the same house, no CO2, no ferts nothing. I just don't want algae to appear if I stop with CO2 all together as that's the one thing that does sometimes appear in my girlfriends tank.


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## BigTom

Jafooli said:


> Cheers Tom,
> 
> I did see your tank in your journal of bucket of mud, while there was so many pages I didn't exactly read it all lol, I thought you was using some kind of fertilized soil but obviously not, which I don't know much about all CEC substrates etc. I didn't know it was just pond soil and sand. I use Eco complete.
> 
> So I guess it can be achieved, I guess it explains why the plants in my girlfriends shrimp tank grow better than in my tank, and its in the same house, no CO2, no ferts nothing. I just don't want algae to appear if I stop with CO2 all together.



The soil does contain fertilisers, but others have used fert-free brands of soil with good results also. But I add very little additional ferts - I bought 500ml of TNC Macro+micro fert mix about 4 years ago which has just run out this month. Eco complete should be fine. I just wanted to demonstrate that healthy plant growth isn't terribly difficult without adding carbon. This tank is almost completely algae free as well - obviously it must contain spores but everything is so stable that all I see is a tiny amount of green spot on the glass that needs cleaning about once every 2-3 months.


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Jafooli said:


> So how does that work? I can't see where they will get the CO2 from, as unlike the floating duckweed they don't have much access to CO2 apart from what the fish produce, and if its a large heavily planted tank, surely the plants will show deficiencies?


 The submerged plants get their CO2 by diffusion from the atmosphere, this only amounts to ~1ppm, but aquatic plants are adapted for those sorts of CO2 levels. 

If the plants show deficiencies I feed them, but for long periods all the nutrients they receive will be from water changes (~10% a day). I use regular water changes and I run a venturi on the filters, to try and ensure a large gas exchange surface. Gas exchange is they key, it equilibrates atmospheric gas levels with dissolved gas levels.

Have a look at "BigTom"
<http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/toms-bucket-o-mud-cryptpocalyspe.14521/> and"Alistair"s <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/a-chocolate-puddle.21327/> journals, they have wide shallow low tech tanks they really are extraordinary.

cheers Darrel


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## Jafooli

Cheers Tom you definitely demonstrated that, and your tank looks amazing.

Like I said above I just thought plants required Carbon, and I must be incorrect, I just thought I read somewhere if the chain is broken, then the plant won't grow properly and will start to die as it cant benefit from the nutrients, for example CO2 deficiencies might start to occur then followed by other deficiencies, but obviously that cant be entirely true.

I just read your reply Darrel, thanks for explaining about the CO2, that pretty much answers my above sentence.

I will also take a look at the journals and give them another read when I get some time as there many pages long.

I might carry on how I am regarding EI, and just give the liquid carbon a try, seeing as I've purchased it now. But if I stop all carbon, can I just continue dosing EI with 50% water changes at end of the week? or could I lower my dose by half for example, then maybe do 25% weekly water changes? and just monitor plants.

( I will also look into the duckweed index a bit more as well) but I find these plants don't do great with much surface agitation, + my tank produces quite a bit of condensation which also rots them, but I've pulled it off before with water lettuce.


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## Jafooli

I've done some research about EI dosing with out CO2, and it seems to be getting more confusing. I've read you don't do water changes as the increase in CO2 will then cause algae because the plant has adapted to low CO2, but because I am going to be using liquid carbon, I presume I can carry on with my water changes? and my current EI dosing? or am I going to need to lower my EI dosing by say 1/2? and also do water changes less often?

If I'm being honest I cant digest some information, its hard to understand things like carbonates, ions, + Ca or what ever all this data means, these are just things of the top of my head lol, but some stuff on here is very scientific I don't have any hope. I get some of it, but some of the things such as other ions make other ions act different or some stuff I read my brain don't get it lol, I have no idea how some of you have learnt the stuff you have, I feel way out my league, I didn't know it was going to be so hard.

Now I'm going down the low tech route that gets confusing as-well, I read here: http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/2817-Non-CO2-methods

Which mentions about water changes, but because I will be using Carbon I presume I can continue water changes. Which leads me to here:

http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/4266-Hybrid-methods-fusing-dry-start-excel-with-non-CO2

So I presume I need to carry on dosing how I do now, with weekly water changes? and eventually I can lower my water changes more, but I would also need to lower my dosing, how much should I lower my EI dosing now I am only using liquid carbon? can I keep my dosing as it is and continue with 50% w.c a week, or should I half my EI dosing and stick to 50% w/c or should I just lower everything? but if I do water changes every two weeks or once a month, GSA appears on my glass, so I don't want to be viewing that. Its like I need to teach my self everything over again.

At the moment I dose for my 200 litre tank:

1/4 Trace Mix 2x a week,
1/4 KH2PO4 3x a week
2/4 KNO3 3x a week
3/4 MgSO4.7H2O 3x a week

Will it be ok to keep that the same and just use liquid carbon? I guess the nutritents wont build up as I will be doing 50% weekly, so my plants will always have more than enough, but am worried with the 50% water changes and CO2 fluctuation coming in from the water, will it cause algae?

Sorry for the essay, I feel completely lost on what to do, I only learnt about this hobby when I found a thread about DIY yeast CO2, then I learnt about EI, and now this is all new to me, especially now for the first time I will just be using liquid carbon. I also have not yet read the journals so maybe my answers lay there, but I have read the Tom bar threads, and am still a bit confused on what my weekly routing should be, regarding dosing, water changes.


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## BigTom

Or you could stop worrying about all those numbers by stopping liquid carbon dosing, stopping EI dosing and just dosing now and then when the plants tell you they need some (Darrel's 'Duckweed Index'). I have no agenda or particular reason to try and convert you to low tech, but going high tech (which includes dosing liquid carbon) seems to be causing all kinds of stress and confusion which you could completely forget about with a low tech approach.

Plant plants, feed fish, change a little water now and again. Don't blast them with too much light. Doesn't have to be any more complicated than that.

Entirely up to you of course and there are plenty of high-tech gurus on here who can hopefully help you out if you decide to stick with high tech.


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## Jafooli

Cheers Tom

I would like to use my liquid carbon, as I do want some kind of growth rates, don't get me wrong I don't want to go high tech, I cant go high tech, my lights are not even in the low light on the par graph which is around on this forum somewhere. I didn't know CO2 etc was regarded as high tech, I actually thought low tech was using liquid carbon, I see people with 30 litres etc always mentioning they use liquid carbon, I didn't realize I could use 4ml of liquid carbon on my 200 litre, that will last me ages. So that's why I purchased some and it seems easier/safer for now, but Its not as effective as gas CO2, so not sure what to do with my dosing and water changes.

If I take the approach you mentioned above, how much slower is growth going to be? I mean I might be underestimating this low tech approach, is it literally like sit back and do hardly anything? how long will it take for plants to thrive and spread into a jungle, like the picture of your tank? I use to have to prune weekly, which is kind of what I want. Like I say I didn't know high tech was CO2 and EI, I thought that was more to do with high light, there for the whole Light>CO2>Nutrients>Organic Waste chain would speed up, requiring more maintenance etc, so "high tech"

Its not about converting me lol, so I honestly don't mind, its just I want a tank that's going to grow plants and that's not going to take 2 weeks to produce one leaf, like I say I don't know how slow low tech is.

Is there anything in the middle between low tech and high tech lol?

Is there a thread specifically on (Darrel's 'Duckweed Index'). so I can understand it a bit better, as I would rather not wait for deficiencies to show up then dose as I'm not the best at knowing what deficiency is what, I would rather have some level in the tank so I know that won't ever be a issue.

Cheers again.


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## BigTom

Jafooli said:


> If I take the approach you mentioned above, how much slower is growth going to be? I mean I might be underestimating this low tech approach, is it literally like sit back and do hardly anything? how long will it take for plants to thrive and spread into a jungle, like the picture of your tank? I use to have to prune weekly, which is kind of what I want. Like I say I didn't know high tech was CO2 and EI, I thought that was more to do with high light, there for the whole Light>CO2>Nutrients>Organic Waste chain would speed up, requiring more maintenance etc, so "high tech"
> 
> Is there a thread specifically on (Darrel's 'Duckweed Index'). so I can understand it a bit better, as I would rather not wait for deficiencies to show up then dose as I'm not the best at knowing what deficiency is what, I would rather have some level in the tank so I know that won't ever be a issue.



So here is my tank immediately after planting, and then 8 months later. By that time it was totally overgrown and had been for quite some time. So reckon maybe 4-6 months for plants to really fill in. Obviously that'll depend a bit on what plants you have. Most of my favourite plants (ferns, crypts) are quite slow growing. Stuff like _Hydrocotyle tripartita_ is rampant however.

The tank had essentially no maintenance in that time. I don't trim, I rarely dose and I change about 10% of water weekly. That's it.





The concept for Darrel's duckweed is explained incredibly simply in post #10 of this thread - http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/low-maintainence-long-term-sustrate.14400/. Basically you just watch the plants and as soon as you seen any sign of holes, yellowing, etc dose a small amount of all-in-one fert. Or you could just dose a small amount weekly... maybe 1/10th EI or something, although I barely use anything.


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## Jafooli

Cheers Tom,

That's such a nice tank, also _Hydrocotyle tripartita _seems nearly the same as Glosso which is odd, well according to Google images.

I think I understand your low tech approach much better now and I've read some of your journal again, I also have already read post #10 but like mentioned I didn't know how to tell what deficiencies are what as the terrestrial deficiency diagrams are irrelevant which I learnt from Clive so would have no idea how to figure which is which but you answered when you mentioned the all-in-one fert.

I'm not to sure if low tech is what I want or not as I only have one tank and this is kind of my only hobby, so I enjoy getting my hands in scrubbing, pruning, tampering around... obviously yours is very low tech indeed and this is what your goal was, I'm not sure how someone can speed up the growth on a low tech tank other than adding liquid carbon / co2 / light etc. Also did you ever find out the answer to CO2 and surface agitation? is it better to have hardly no ripple and use the CO2 content inside the tank? or in the end did you go with full surface movement? I see Darrel mentions he uses a venturi for gas exchange so I presume the latter is the best option to provide CO2 to the tank?

For now I think I will stick to my 50% water change's, Keep CO2 off, but I will use my liquid carbon, as I would like to see how things go with that approach and see how my fish / plants respond, At least I would have tried that approach, I will keep doing some research on how much to dose ferts wise, and how much water changes I should do with liquid carbon and EI, as obviously that's my concern right now as I don't want raising nutrients, or any other issues.

If I don't see much or any improvement in a month, then maybe I will take a leaf out your book and just go pure low tech, and kind of copy your approach, with out the soil etc. I presume I would still do the 10% water changes as well and let leafs rot etc? and then just dose via the duckweed index, also do you use duckweed personally? or you just wait for a plant to show yellowing etc then you dose your all in one?

I presume your approach will be safe to do even with many fish in my tank? I see you have some fish, and odd inverts, so I guess your not heavily stocked etc. I would just be concerned about the rotting organic waste? and only the 10% water change a week when with clown loaches etc its recommend to do 50% a week just with them.

Thanks for everyone's help, I might sound stressed out or come across like I am confused as I am most the time, but I do want to learn!, and I enjoy it once I understand it, I've learnt a lot here in the last couple of weeks so I don't mind the CO2 route, I would rather have a headache than just chuck in the towel.  Pressurised CO2 has worked for me in the past, just when things go wrong they seem to go wrong, and this time my tank has not recovered, especially after the diatom outbreak, so I'm now at the beginning of a new road, and I'm sure I will get there in the end, hopefully with out losing any more fish or dying plants.


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## Andy Thurston

Hi jafooli 
Heres my 35l liquid carbon tank



 
Tank gets 2ml liquid carbon daily and 3.5ml of TNC complete once a week
Its not much of a scape but the plants are healthy and the fish and shrimp seem ok. I wouldn't dose more than 1.5x liquid carbon if you have breeding or sensitive shrimp in the tank though


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## Jafooli

Hey Andy cheers for posting your tank I really appreciate it. Your tank looks very healthy 

Isn't 2ml more than double the dose on your tank? I thought it was 1ml per 50 litres? Do different brands have different dosing guidelines? 

I was going to keep mine in the guidelines, and not even double dose, not until I get more experience. 

I presume TNC complete is an all in one, is there any reason you only dose once a week and not 2-3x a week.. also what water changes do you do as I'm curious. 

Not sure if you know the answer or not but do you think my tank would be fine if I kept my current EI dosing and 50% water changes along with 4ml liquid carbon?


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## Andy Thurston

Its about 3x dose and i built up to it slowly and watched the fauna. At about 3.5x dose the fish sat on the bottom and the shrimp tried to climb out, this lasted for about 2-3 hours after dosing
Complete is an all in one fert from the sponsors i use their liquid carbon too, its easy on the wallet
I dose complete after a 50% weekly water change which is about 1/3 ei dose, it seems to work and easy to remember.
The tanks been running for about a year the first few months were it was plagued with every kind of algae but bit by bit we got there with a bit of help from ukaps
I cant answer the question about your tanks regime but 1x liquid carbon dose wasn't enough for the amount of light in my tank thats why it gets a 3x dose.


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## Jafooli

Cheers I'm not sure how I will figure out if my dose is not enough or not, I guess I will give it few weeks then increase and watch fish / plants etc.

How do you store your liquid carbon? I purchased mine from aqua essentials and just waiting for a response as I have no idea, when it arrived it seemed like it had been refrigerated. 
Also mine is in a transparent bottle, I read liquid carbon (mostly seachem excel) is sensitive to light and then it wont work as effectively, so am worried as mine is in a 500ml transparent container.


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## Andy Thurston

Mines in a 1l transparent container and is on a shelf above the tank away from the lights and sunlight


> I guess I will give it few weeks then increase and watch fish / plants etc.


Pretty much


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## Jafooli

Just an update, my clown loaches are actually about and swimming, they all seem fine. Its the first time I've seen them for weeks. All other fish seem much more happy, all back to exploring and looking for food. Strange how not injecting CO2 has made a difference as it would of only been on for 3 hours, but might be to early to tell, but positive signs so far.

I've just done my second dose of liquid carbon, I try to keep the stuff away from me as I read its not good for health or some other reason, I didn't pay much attention but cant be that bad.

I also noticed my nymphaea lotus bulb leafs have opened up today, this plant looks stunning, I am exited to see how big it does actually grow. My only concern now is every plant I buy from here on out I'm need to do research encase liquid carbon causes it to melt? as I see that's one issue about liquid carbon, some plants melt.

I don't suppose someone has put a list together of plants that don't do great with liquid carbon? is there any plants that are more susceptible to melting? I mostly have crypts, hygrophilas, echinodorus, java ferns etc and some glosso with stauro repens. I might also go to my LFS today and buy some more plants, but obviously concerned what will melt and wont.

I've also chose to do 1/3 of my EI dosing, so Sunday Macro and Monday Micro then job done for the week, hopefully that will be enough and then I can always increase if I notice problems.

Thanks again for everyone's time and help, I felt like a headless chicken yesterday as everything I've learnt so far was all revolved around pressurized CO2. But I'm just take it as it comes and hopefully if stuff goes wrong people here will then put me on the right path again.

Cheers.


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## Andy Thurston

glosso didnt grow well in my 35l with just liquid carbon so i swapped it for stauro and that does ok. try hc if the glosso fails. i think the rest will be ok though
good luck


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