# Please help me get my tank back under control



## Chrispowell (22 Oct 2016)

Hi all, 

I'm struggling abit with my tank at the moment, I can't seem to get various algae under control and I think things are getting worse...

My lights are ZETLIGHT 4000, 80% for 5 hours a day, I'm dosing EI ferts at 20ml a day (roughly 250L tank) and just started adding 5ml of easycarbo.

Drop checker is green and co2 is quite fast (3bps)


Anyway here is the mess...










please help

Thank you


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## Ryan Thang To (22 Oct 2016)

Hi

Can you first turn you lights down to 40-50 % and remove as much algae as you can. 
Ei add abit more like 25 or 30ml is fine. 
Also me personally i dont like dc they are only there to let you know co2 is there. Use a ph pen or a ph monitor. Have your co2 to come on around about 2 or 3 hours before lights come on. test first thing in the morning and another reading just before lights come on and last one when light goes off. What ever your reading is you want to aim for a 1 point drop

For example
My ph in the morning is 7.4 and 6.4 when lights come on so it should stay stable until ligths are off. If not stable then try to have less surface movement 
Remember patient is the key. Don't change things and expect it to fix straight away. Let is run for 2 weeks and keep up the water change 

Cheers
Ryan


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## alto (22 Oct 2016)

Chrispowell said:


> My lights are ZETLIGHT 4000, 80% for 5 hours a day, I'm dosing EI ferts at 20ml a day (roughly 250L tank) and just started adding 5ml of easycarbo.


Check your Easy Carbo bottle, this sounds a very low dose for the tank size (but I use Excel)

Water change schedule? during an algae outbreak, going back to daily water changes & algae removal is a conservative choice 

though if you look at Iwagumi sometimes just letting it "burn out" works too 

Who's on your algae crew?

Re turning down the light - this is a fairly deep tank, so take care with this as you can starve the plants of PAR long before you starve out the algae
How many LED's in the 42watt fixture, that will give you an good estimate of watt/LED ... 
0.3watt/0.5watt LED will generally provide moderate to high PAR values for 30 - 35cm water column depth, but decrease to low PAR after 45cm water column depth  

Also understand that the "cone" or "spread" of light is significantly affected when you turn down the LED intensity, depending on the type of driver, spectrum can also shift significantly (most LED's)

Try to find other example of these lights on a similarly deep tank & use that as a guide for your light goal


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## Chrispowell (23 Oct 2016)

Ryan Thang To said:


> Hi
> 
> Can you first turn you lights down to 40-50 % and remove as much algae as you can.



Yes Ryan I have turned the lights down to 60%. I dont think any of my plants require strong lighting anyway so cant see it troubling them..



Ryan Thang To said:


> Ei add abit more like 25 or 30ml is fine.



I am trying an EI mix that Luis uses to great success - 



Luís Cardoso said:


> I'm Using EI regime
> All-in-One Daily 1000ml
> KNO3 - 60g
> K2SO4 - 45g
> ...



He uses RO water and I have hard tap water, not sure if this would make this mix act differently? 



Ryan Thang To said:


> Also me personally i dont like dc they are only there to let you know co2 is there. Use a ph pen or a ph monitor. Have your co2 to come on around about 2 or 3 hours before lights come on. test first thing in the morning and another reading just before lights come on and last one when light goes off. What ever your reading is you want to aim for a 1 point drop



I will look into a ph probe, any recommendations? 

Thankyou for your detailed post!


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## Chrispowell (23 Oct 2016)

Alto - thankyou to you too for a detailed post!



alto said:


> Check your Easy Carbo bottle, this sounds a very low dose for the tank size (but I use Excel)



The bottle recommends, 1ML per 50 liters or 2ML per 50 liters in a heavily planted tank, my tanks around 250L




alto said:


> Water change schedule? during an algae outbreak, going back to daily water changes & algae removal is a conservative choice



I am going to do a large (90%) water change today and will remove every bit of algae I can, then I will do 30-50% changes every evening for the next week and see where it gets me..



alto said:


> Who's on your algae crew?



At the moment I have about 20 amano shrimp and only 2 ottos. Would cherry shrimp help? SAE?



alto said:


> Re turning down the light - this is a fairly deep tank, so take care with this as you can starve the plants of PAR long before you starve out the algae
> How many LED's in the 42watt fixture, that will give you an good estimate of watt/LED ...
> 0.3watt/0.5watt LED will generally provide moderate to high PAR values for 30 - 35cm water column depth, but decrease to low PAR after 45cm water column depth
> 
> ...



I am strugging to find good infomation on the lights. I will have a solid look now and see if I can find any specs!

heres some info on them, I have 2 roughly 10cm above the water...

*Model: ZP4000-F-1047-42W*



 Length: 1047mm


 Power: 42w


 Replaces T5 Lamps: 54w


 Replaces T8 Lamps: n/a
Aquarium dimensions (when using supplied brackets)


 Minimum Aquarium Length: 105cm


 Maximum Aquarium Length: 125cm


 Lumens: 3500LM


 White Colour temperature: 6500K (84 LED's)


 Blue wavelength: 465-470nm (14 LED's)


 Red wavelength: 620-630nm (28 LED's)


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## Chrispowell (23 Oct 2016)

Also.. Is an air stone at night a good idea?


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## EdwinK (24 Oct 2016)

Yes. That's a great idea.


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## Chrispowell (24 Oct 2016)

Thanks all!

24 hours later and a marked improvement! I have cleaned everything up yesterday and added an air stone that turns on an hour after lights go out and stays on until the morning.

I have adjusted my co2 timing so it's now on 2 hours before the lights. I am going to look at a ph probe this week! 

50% water change every day now, I will update with pics at the weekend


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## foxfish (24 Oct 2016)

Look for a PH pen, just a few £ on eBay.


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## Chrispowell (24 Oct 2016)

I had one before but never relaised you had to calibrate it :-/

Needless to say I didnt measure ph that well for a year or so!!


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## Simon Burley (26 Oct 2016)

alto said:


> Also understand that the "cone" or "spread" of light is significantly affected when you turn down the LED intensity, depending on the type of driver, spectrum can also shift significantly (most LED's)



Hi. Long time lurker, first time poster. I want to correct the above statement.
I've used LEDs for years in industrial applications (not aquatic plant lighting!) and measured LEDs using devices far more sensitive than the human eye. I can absolutely assure you that the cone, or spread, of light does not change at all when you turn down LED intensity. We may perceive that it does, but it doesn't. In fact, all practical reduction of LED intensity will be via PWM - pulse width modulation - in other words, the LED is switched fully on and off at high frequency and the ratio of on time to off time will determine the intensity. Therefore, the LED is either at 100% output or zero output. At, say, 50% modulation the output of the LED over the entire illuminated area will be at the same 50% modulation, so therefore the falloff from the centre of the illuminated area to the edge will always be a constant.
If all the LEDs in the array are being dimmed from the same driver then the spectral output of the array should remain the same.
In the case that the driver is of a linear type rather than PWM (why anyone would do this I don't know) then yes, each type of LED in the array would probably not dim at the same rate. But that would be a dreadful design and one to steer clear of.


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## micheljq (28 Oct 2016)

Very few aquarium LEDs use pulse width modulation, unfortunately.  I know Aquaray does, Zetlight may use it but i am not fully certain.

Michel.


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## Chrispowell (30 Oct 2016)

Thanks to everyone for your help, slow progress but progress none the less.










After a busy week where I haven't managed a water change since last Sunday that is the state of the tank...

Sands got some green on it but it's not terrible! Hair algae is going, some remains on the moss but not half as bad as a week ago!!

Leaves have some algae that is easy to wipe off, is this due to lack of flow over them??

Also, why does the lower parts of my rotala looks so dark and rubbish? Also is it growing really leggy?

Thanks all!


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## Chrispowell (1 Nov 2016)

The leaves seem to be getting more and more of this algae? Any tips to try?


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## kadoxu (2 Nov 2016)

Have you considered snails?


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## Chrispowell (2 Nov 2016)

Nope, will they help? Wouldn't want to get overrun though! Would cherry shrimp help?


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## kadoxu (2 Nov 2016)

I believe Nerite Snails aren't able to reproduce in freshwater... they do put some eggs, but they need brackish water to hatch or something like that, so if you don't mind scraping a couple of white dots once in a while, they would do some good, specially on the substrate, wood and rocks (they are too heavy to be able to climb most plants).
I have 2 Zebra Nerite Snails in a nano tank that do a hell of a job cleaning white pebbles.

Red Cherries also help a lot... but since you already have Amanos, it may be a problem if you want the Cherries to breed.


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## kadoxu (2 Nov 2016)

Also, how is your water flow rate & distribution like? 
What kind of filter are you using? From what I can see on the pics it's an external one, right? What are you using on the outflow, a lily pipe, spray bar, or nothing at all?


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## Chrispowell (2 Nov 2016)

kadoxu said:


> Also, how is your water flow rate & distribution like?
> What kind of filter are you using? From what I can see on the pics it's an external one, right? What are you using on the outflow, a lily pipe, spray bar, or nothing at all?




I thought the flow was quite good as I can see most plants gently swaying around. It's 2 ehiem  e1501, with lilly pipe outlets. One at either end of the tank, one pointing along the front glass and one the back


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## foxfish (2 Nov 2016)

Did you get a PH pen?
I know a lot of the experts on here believe a drop checker is the best way to establish the correct C02 levels but I wonder what you might find out by checking the PH drop.
I strongly suspect you don't have enough available C02 for your plants to really thrive.


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## kadoxu (2 Nov 2016)

Chrispowell said:


> It's 2 ehiem e1501, with lilly pipe outlets.


2 EHEIM e1501? Do you mean 2 JBL e1501? That should be more than enough.



foxfish said:


> Did you get a PH pen?
> I know a lot of the experts on here believe a drop checker is the best way to establish the correct C02 levels but I wonder what you might find out by checking the PH drop.
> I strongly suspect you don't have enough available C02 for your plants to really thrive.


I find my drop checker quite useless, to be honest... The Seneye device is very useful to me.


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## Chrispowell (3 Nov 2016)

Sorry! Yes jbl. 

PH pen in order, I must have a leaking system or blocked diffusers if the. co2 is low.

I'm running about 4bps at the mo?


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## kadoxu (3 Nov 2016)

Bubbles per second can be deceiving when measuring the amount of CO2 you are providing... they are only useful for yourself, because different bubble counters will generate different sized bubbles.

You should check the PH drop in comparison with your KH instead.

I have this chart that someone posted here in the forum some time ago (I think it was zozo). It shows the relation between dKH, PH and the amount of CO2 (in ppm) in the water.

Ideally, you want to be on a gray cell (around 30ppm), so for me with 16dKH, my PH should drop to 7-7.2.
If you have 4dKH, your PH should drop to 6.4-6.7 when CO2 is on.





Test it just before turning the CO2 off, to get a more accurate and stable value.


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## foxfish (3 Nov 2016)

Yes BCs are a great guide for yourself but not always comparable to others BCs.
My own shows around 6-8 BPS on my 200l.
I don't know what my KH is but, I do know a one point PH drop will give me lush plants & long lived fish.


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## Chrispowell (4 Nov 2016)

Tested tonight with my new ph pen. at 7:30pm (co2 off at 5pm) PH was 6.6 

Will test tomorrow morning before lights on and at around 5pm tomorrow evening too


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## Chrispowell (5 Nov 2016)

This morning at 5am 12 hours after the co2 went off yesterday the ph is 8.4


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## tim (5 Nov 2016)

8.4-6.6 seems like a big drop Chris, best way to profile your ph is take a reading as the Co2 turns on then every hour untill lights on (if this is possible ) you should aim for a 1 point drop by lights on then every hour untill lights off, this should remain around the 1 point mark for optimum injection. Example 8.4 at Co2 on dropping to 7.4 at lights on then holding steady at around 7-7.4 untill the Co2 turns off, should be ideal for flora and fauna.


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## kadoxu (5 Nov 2016)

To have such high PH (like me), your KH is probably around 15 or above... so your ideal PH level with CO2 on should be around 7-7.4, as @tim mentioned.

This means you should use less than half the CO2 you are using at this moment.


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## Chrispowell (5 Nov 2016)

Does too much co2 do more damage then good for the plants?


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## kadoxu (5 Nov 2016)

CO2 excess doesn't damage plants at all... but plants can't use it all anyway, so your money is just literally evaporating...


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## kadoxu (5 Nov 2016)

If you have any living creatures, though... more than 30ppm CO2 is a no no!


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## foxfish (5 Nov 2016)

Atmospheric C02 levels are around 400ppm, I don't know what the max water will hold, maybe 40ppm but no where near the levels that the plants could use.
That is why, virtually all the plants we keep before we buy them, are grown with their foliage out of water.
Anyway if you can do a PH profile that will tell us quite a lot.


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## Chrispowell (5 Nov 2016)

Thanks everyone, I was under the impression that more co2 would cure algae issues as the plants would grow better.. 

I'm going to have to do a profile tomorrow as I was at work when lights came on today. Just tested now and it's already fallen to 7.1...


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## Chrispowell (6 Nov 2016)

Right, this morning I have started to record the co2 levels... 

8am - ph8.5 (co2 turns on) 
9am - ph8
10am - 7.4
11am - 7.2
12 - Lights on ( I was out so unable to record) 
1pm - 6.9

I dont think there is any need to continue recording - its obviously getting way too muh co2. Currently including "sunrise" and "sunset" periods my lights are on for around 9 hours a day. Should I go back to basics? 

1 period of 5/6 hours a day of say 80% light, get the co2 to drop by the time lights on and then stay steady? 
I have also turned down the heater as the rotala that is struggling is right under it and Im wondering if this is the reason for that struggling? 

Thanks for all the help so far, hopefully we can crack this!


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## tim (6 Nov 2016)

Your certainly getting the required ph drop, I would try 6 hour photoperiod, manually remove as much algae as possible with each water change, 3 times water change a week if possible untill the tank is back on track, getting the plants strong and healthy again is key.


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## foxfish (6 Nov 2016)

Hi Chris, I find this situation fascinating, so you have 250lt & a PH drop of almost two points with 3BPS.
I don't think I have every read about such a large drop with so little gas.
I assume this has something to do with your tap water parameters?
 Anyway your C02 bottle is going to last a long time 
The normal issues on this forum is how to get a one point drop, even on 60lt tank some folk have problems, so you must be doing something right!
Even Ian M will be impressed...


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## Chrispowell (6 Nov 2016)

I think my 3bps could actually be about 6


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## Chrispowell (6 Nov 2016)

So here we are...

Just finished my weekly maintenance, cleaning of the glass, sand vac, rock scrub, plant care and a 50% water change. 

Here's how things look..









following all of your advice I have made some changes I hope will get me back on track..

Modified bubble count to about half what it was..

Co2 on 2.5hours before lights and off 1 hour before lights out

Lighting period reduced to 6 hours of same intensity. 

Moved heater from directly above the rear plants 

I plan to do a ph map this week and then see how everything goes.

I auto dose 30ml of ferts every day now and 10ml of easy carbo, does it matter that these go in hours before the lights go on? 

Thanks, Chris


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## Chrispowell (7 Nov 2016)

Day 1 of the new regime!!

Ph at lights off was ph7, I'm unable to check what it measures during the day at the min as I'm at work. 

I have manually removed any algae again today and vac'd the sand. I'm now doing a 50% water change. 

I have heard of people spraying the plants with hydrogen peroxide? Has anyone any experience doing this? 

Thanks


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## Chrispowell (8 Nov 2016)

Day 2! 

Cleaned the sand, wiped down wood and rock and give all plants a good rub. 

Very slight discolouring of sand but hopefully things will start to improve.. Im hoping the plants will pick up and in turn stop algae. 

50% water change


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## Chrispowell (13 Nov 2016)

Thanks to all for your help! Tank is looking great again, I need to dose with iron as Most plants are yellowing or pale but I think the algae has all but gone

Thank you!


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## Chrispowell (25 Nov 2016)

Another question guys.... 

IF i increase light, will I see less of a ph drop during the day as the plants will be absorbing more co2??


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