# have i done enough



## danmil3s (15 Mar 2010)

hi ukaps so ive started to suffer algae on my 750l tank different strands. ive done a couple of thinks to try and combat it.
1. lowered light from 342w t5ho on for 8 hours down to 186w for 2 hours 342w for 2 hours then back down to 186w for 2 hours.
2.increased co2 and in now comes on 3 hours be for lights instead of 1 to help fill sump 
3 taped up sump to help stabilize co2.
4.increased flow.
5.added stem plans to help use extra nutrients 
6.set up a continues drip water chance in hope water will be cleaner.
7.changed dosing from a plan nutria cal came up with to a plan from an article by tom barr this one 
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=915
is there any thing else i could be doing thanks for any help 
dan


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## ceg4048 (15 Mar 2010)

Yes, you can forget about the 342 W lights for now until you get a grip on the problem. I guess we also need to know what type of algae you have for effective troubeshooting...

Cheers,


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## danmil3s (15 Mar 2010)

thanks ill turn of the middle burst of light off and just have 6 hours of 186w.  Staghorn Algae seems to be growing all over the place a small amount of black bush here and there, and green spot on the glass with some green slim on some plant leaves. i think another cause was i put a lot of Java moss in the tank tied to bits of wood. i think most of it died ive taken all the lose stuff out now that was stuck in the plants so im hoping that helps. the algae doesn't seen to have grown much since i changed every thing. i know i had an iron problem but im hoping adding 8% by weight to my trace from AE will sort that with the new dosing plan. should i pull the leaves with staghorn on off im sure i read that some where its just that wont leave me many plants.would like to give it a week and see how it goes. thanks ceg


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## ceg4048 (15 Mar 2010)

Hi,
    The Staghorn, BBA and GSA all point to CO2, flow or distribution. This has nothing to do with iron. The green slime I'm not sure what that is. Is it on the glass or on the plants/hardscape/gravel? If it's BGA as I suspect then this is either due to poor filter maintenance or low nitrate. This also has nothing to do with iron.

Almost all types of algae require that you remove infected leaves and clean as much of it off as possible. Algae produce spores which then bloom into more algae - which produce more spores, and on and on, understand?

Perform large multiple water changes per week. this will remove as many spores as possible.

Please describe in as much detail as possible how you inject CO2, starting with a detailed inventory of your equipment.
Please also be sure to describe the schedule of when you turn the gas on/off and when your turn your lights on/off.
Please advise in what way you are measuring your CO2 concentration level.
Please describe exactly what nutrients you are dosing, how often you dose and how you prepare your solutions.
Please describe your filtration equipment and your filter outlet geometry.
Please describe your tank cleaning/maintenance program.
If you can provide pictures they might be worth a thousand words as well.

Cheers,


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## danmil3s (16 Mar 2010)

ill remove all the leaves with algae on and give the whole tank  hover and change some of the water. i know irons not a cause just thought it was worth mentioning that my ferts weren't  right.

my co2 is gas from a 10kg cylinder using a dennerle regulator and solenoid the bubbles are to fast to count the line goes in to an atomizer which is stuffed in my spray bar this seems to send tiny little bubbles round the tank. with the odd big one from the end of the spray bar when it builds up.i had a drop checker stuck at the front right hand bottom corner and  one at the bottom back left both where light green. since i sealed my sump the one on the front right is closer to yellow. i put the other one in my sump to see how much co2 was in the air for the gas exchange its yellow. 
co2 comes on at 13:00 lights on at 16:00 co2 off at 21:00 then lights off at 22:00
my dosing plan was 
3.26g potassium nitrate
4.0g potassium sulphate
.5 potassium phosphate
5.0g magnesium

 .76g aqua essentials trace 
added daily round about time lights went on 
now its 


60 grams KNO3
10 grams of KH2PO4
in 1l of tap water with
50 ml added daily 

40g aqua essentials trace 
4g aqua essentials trace iron
in 500 ml  of tap water
 25 mls daily 

 for filtration i have a 1.5" drilled over flow and a 1.5" diy over flow box the out side is now sealed to the air both ave pre filter sponges changed daily. they go in to a sump the water then flows through a course medium and fine filter pads. i haven't cleaned this for about 6 weeks as water flow is good and it looks clean (well for a fish tank filter)im using a sequence pump throttled so both over flows are maxed out. water goes through a spray bar the length of tank pointing at the front water flows down glass and back round
i normally do %50 water change Sunday morning cleaning all gravel and dead leaves ect except last week i just changed the water due to fitting a kitchen  i think this is the route of my problems also now i have a drip system changing the water 
hope this is clear enough thanks for your help i really appreciate it if you need better pics or more info just let me know thanks again  know


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## ceg4048 (16 Mar 2010)

Hi,
    Thanks for providing the additional details. That really helps!  

It seems that all of the changes you've implemented are the correct ones. Being Dennerle, the quality of equipment ought to be beyond reproach. I like the geometry of your spraybars (I use a similar setup) and I like the fact that you've sealed the sump. The gas turn on schedule relative to lights schedule seems reasonable to me. I'm much less in love with that textured background though, and I feel it contributes to issues with flow. But this can be compensated for by having higher flow throughput. You realize that for a high tech tank the 10X rule should be enforced? This means that you ought to have in the neighbourhood of 7500 Litre per hour of rated turnover. I don't recall seeing your turnover number for this setup. I'm also still a little unclear as to the placement of the diffusers. Are they mounted upstream of the spraybars, or did you say they were stuffed inside the spraybar? I assume that means at the upstream entry point of the bars?

It's probably debatable but I think that CO2 diffusion should occur well upstream of the spraybars to enable better dissolving of the gas in water prior to being introduced into the tank. This is just theoretical mind you but I prefer to NOT see any CO2 bubbles although there is the Barr concept of CO2 misting which sends fine gas bubble into direct contact with the plant surface. But I don't think this can be done very efficiently with our typical reactors, only with speciality equipment such as Mazzei injectors, which is an advanced high efficiency CO2 distribution technique. In your configuration the CO2  lost to the surface is very high because most bubbles head straight up and only a small percentage of the bubbles actually stay submerged for any length of time. These are the ones you see. if better mixing is achieved then there are fewer bubbles and perhaps some improvement in efficiency, which is pretty anaemic even in the best of times quite frankly.

I wish I had something more concrete because I'm sure I'd be flamed mercilessly at the merest hint of injection rate increase, and I don't think you'd be looking forward to pulling that background out, but I do have a few testimonials that flow rate and distribution were markedly improved when similar backgrounds were removed .

So the only thing left is flow rate increase, perhaps by adding Koralias? You probably don't feel too good about having to buy a higher rated pump I'd imagine. In any case I think the light intensity reduction will definitely help, though it might be a few weeks of elbow grease cleaning out the algae. 
It's an expensive option, but if you're not afraid of Excel/Easycarbo/AE Equivalent you might think about supplementing this at least for a few weeks. This is the problem with a big tank, everything you want to do cost more than you bargained for. If you do go that route remember to include the volume of the sump in any calculation, so if the tank is 750L and the sump is 100L then you really have a 850L tank OK?

As far as that slimy algae you were talking about have you confirmed it is BGA? If your filter is clean as you say then one has to look at inadequate NO3 levels so try adding another 10 teaspoons KNO3 to your 1L mixture (or dose 100ml daily of your existing mixture) - if we are in fact talking about BGA.

Hope this helps mate.  

Cheers,


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## danmil3s (17 Mar 2010)

it does help loads thanks. ive removed all leaves with bba and the worst staghorn affected leaves ive also turnd up the drip changer i guess that will get rid of more spores.
your right about the back ground i dont really want to pull it out. but i can see what you mean about flow the plan is one day to have Java fern growing all over it,ive got some with plants with daughters just to the left in the side shot. 
i have no manufacturers numbers about pump LPH as im throttling it. its a sequence 1000 lph pond pump. i can see it moving all the plants about even the ones on the background. judging by the time it takes to empty my sump its just above 10x volume. so im hoping its ok. like i said 1.5" over flow drilled and box flow to sump are maxed out. thought you'd like spay bar im pretty sure i got the idea for one of your posts. after i messed about with internal pumps thanks by the way.
cos injection explaned



the clear pipe is the spray bar the black pipe is from sump the green is the co2 hose which is stuffed in the black pipe it has an atomizer on the end then there is a couple of bio balls to brake up the bubbles. i agree this is not a good way of doing things but there where reasons for this quick fix .it doesn't work well lots of bubbles float up so co2 needs to be really high. and they make the water look dirty. i want to try and put some thing in the sump waters not deep enough for the Dennerle cyclo turbo 5000 i have i might try it on an angle. or i might try and make some thing i have some pumps pipe and things kicking around. now i have a constant level in sump it should be easer. 
the kno3 was low when tested was 5ppm but that was with the old dosing plan the new one has more i think just  did the numbers works out the same so ill do as you suggest and add 10 tea spoons to mix then test it although i read on here test are a waste of time. any way things are looking up no new alage.
thanks agian
Dan


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## danmil3s (17 Mar 2010)

just a quick up date ive changed the co2 injection method using the Dennerle cyclo turbo. ive turned down the gas as there is 100% diffusion now.  ill keep an eye on it tank looks loads better with out bubbles


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## danmil3s (17 Mar 2010)

another update flow increased. second pipe added to overflow box now im sure i have high flow. did try to upload a video to you tube but no joy


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## ceg4048 (19 Mar 2010)

Hi Dan,
         Can you show a still image of the CO2 cyclone - you know, the new CO2 diffusion method? I'm not familiar with that model. I have to say mate, I was definitely not in love with that first CO2 diffusion method, essentially using the spraybar as the diffuser. I reckon you'd suffer _*negative*_ bonus point action on "Who Wants To Be A Millionaire".  

I'm not sure what diameter your black return-from-sump hose is but if you can afford it you might want to get the 17mm Cal-Aqua in-line diffuser shown here> Inline CO2 Diffusers 

Cut the hose and mount it as close as possible to the sump.

If the Cal Aqua won't do the trick you can make a DIY reactor as demonstrated  by Ed Seeley on how to make one cheap and easily DIY Reactor - pictures, assembly and testing and you can adjust the design of the inlet/outlet fittings for your hose size.

Cheers,


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## danmil3s (19 Mar 2010)

thanks for links. my out flow pipe is 38mm so the Cal-Aqua in-line diffuser wont work unfortunately. ive seen eds reactor i do like it.i did a rough price up of parts at my size works out some where near Â£40. bit to much at the moment. i might have a go latter.hes a photo of the reactor im using i looked on the net and could not find it
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the co2 runs down a pipe in the middle comes out the bottom and runs up the in side (looks like the part on the left) the pump pushes water past the gas braking it up. you can keep adding length to it for larger tanks. really it needs extending for this tank but then it wont fit in sump. and i found with my flow patten it didn't get co2 round the tank as i would have liked. if you need more info ill try and explain better. you may have noticed writings not my strong point


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## ceg4048 (20 Mar 2010)

No worries mate, I get it.   Well, I think cyclone diffusion technique (Revision 1) is better that the original, so just go with that for a while until you have the resources available to fabricate Ed's reactor version. As long as you understand that a high efficiency of dissolving CO2 into water means that you can use less CO2, will be better for plants and will therefore be less detrimental to fish. So maximizing the effectiveness of diffusion is a priority. I reckon you understand that now so it's just a matter of time before you're able to improve your system and to see better results.  

Cheers,


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## danmil3s (20 Mar 2010)

yeah i get it thanks i might look at getting a co2 splitter and using 2 of these in my sump now it has a constant level for now just want to sort out alage with my light low ill need less co2 so this should just about cope for now. i think thats right


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