# DIY LED lighting?



## Ed Seeley

I need some help from the more electronically minded of you.  After looking at the Maplin links quoted in another thread here I saw these LED Bright strips.  I was thinking an array of these might be perfect for lighting a tank.  Don't suppose anyone has used them in a DIY job in there house or something have they?  If so are they independently powered or do they need some soldering and wiring?  I am going to e-mail Maplins too.  What I'm hoping is maybe 4 could be wired in together to one power source to replace a flourescent light.

They may not be powerful enough to bother but allegedly each LED outputs 14kmcd (which I assume means Kilo millicandelas - or 14 candelas) and there are 30 LEDs which means 420cd.  Apparently a 100W incandescent bulb puts out about 120cd so we're looking at about 3 and a half 100W incadescent light bulbs!  Worth a go maybe and certainly cheaper than the ready made LED units around at the moment?


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## Wilis

Hi Ed, 
Yes using LEDs is certainly viable as a DIY option, most will need to be behind say a perspex cover though as they have an inadequate IP rating especially the ones you are looking at from Maplin. Try looking on different sites for example http://cpc.farnell.com/ and search for led lighting strips, there are a lot out there if you're prepared to spend the time looking, as the ones on Maplin seem very expensive to me, also your local electrical wholesaler may be able to help you & will probably be a lot cheaper than Maplins also eg CEF, Network etc. 
You will need, with most applications, to purchase a separate transformer,usually 12v, to run your lights, size depends on how many lights you wish to run-basically the load the transformer can handle, you may need more than one transformer depending on which lights you choose,also some packs will come complete with a suitable transformer. 
You can also buy complete packs of ten or more round lights, usually containing 3,5 or 7 LEDs per light, that come with all necessary cables & an appropriate transformer & these usually have an adequate IP rating for this kind of application (some even being submersible)
You shouldn't have to solder anything if you buy the right kit-the LED strips should have cables with a bare end ready to strip & put into a connector on the transformer, or male n female plugs etc.

I've been considering LEDs myself for my 70l jewel rekord as the crappy little t8 isn't up to the job and now I've bought an aqua-medic twin halide for my new 4ft I've abandoned that diy project & need something else to stop me doing all the other things I should be doing!lol Considering using a baking tin/tray with a perspex cover-drilled out at the back as the enclosure for my luminaire!  

Hope this helps?! & let us know how you get on
Regards
Will


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## Voo

I've bought myself a pack of these to try make my own:
Blue LEDS


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## scottturnbull

It looks expensive. Ask maplin for a link to the datasheet for the strip, and post it here. If they don't provide a datasheet, look for an array that comes with one. Any electronics supplier worth their salt should provide one.


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## SteveyG

Don't waste your money on the Maplin LED strip. You'll never get a 14cd from those LEDs, and if you do, it'll be a very narrow beam angle. 

You cannot compare these LED strips from the specs they have given to another light source (like your 100W lamp for example) as a 1 candela = 1 lumen/steradian, i.e. the luminous intensity in a given direction. As the beam angle increases the luminous intensity decreases. The total output power remains the same, but they have not given this (as it would not look appealing!). 

The typical 5mm LED cannot dissipate more than about 120mW, so as you can can imagine, the light output will be a small percentage of this!

I would look at some of the higher flux LEDs if you want some serious LED lighting. Look at Osram, Luxeon or Cree LEDs for some higher power LEDs more suited to creating an adequate light source.


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## scottturnbull

There are some interesting solid state light-strips here. A few are bordering upon the amount of light output that might be useful. This one even has a driver built-in. They aren't terrifically powerful, and I would like to see a datasheet for specs on thermal characteristics, typical dc current, peak current etc., but they are relatively cheap and would definitely be strong enough to supplement existing lights, if you used enough of them. Over Christmas I might get some and see what they can do. The difficult part - for me, at least - is finding a suitable waterproof housing, with decent optical properties. I'm not exactly Mr. DIY.

There's also some cheap 5mm LED arrays on that website. It might be worth your while trying your hand with some of those, just for experience. If you haven't worked with LEDs before, you'll undoubtedly cause a few to go into thermal breakdown. Once you can drive some cheap LEDs at their maximum, without causing thermal runaway, then you can buy some dearer ones. (I didn't mean that to sound patronising. I still burn the odd component from time to time.)


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## Spider Pig

How about these ones:
http://www.ultraleds.co.uk/water-proof- ... -1573.html

Waterproof, supposedly high brightness- 20w equivalent for 12 quid each. 6000K near enough daylight. What else do you need to run them?

Looking around the website they also have bulbs to use on boats. Could you put one of these into a waterproof halogen downlighter fitting for a shower?
http://www.ultraleds.co.uk/ultra-mr16-l ... 1940.html- 
45w equivalent for 20 quid.

Pity I don't have a spare tank to experiment on otherwise I could see my self wasting a lot of time (and money) on this  . I assume there are other expenses and technicalities (like heat dissipation) to look at as well that might make this unattractive.


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## scottturnbull

Spider Pig said:
			
		

> How about these ones:
> http://www.ultraleds.co.uk/water-proof- ... -1573.html
> 
> Waterproof, supposedly high brightness- 20w equivalent for 12 quid each. 6000K near enough daylight. What else do you need to run them?



I didn't spot those before. That's cheating. There's nothing left to do. Although its closer to 3 Watts, in total, which is probably around 6 Watts equivalent, if they are driven properly.



			
				Spider Pig said:
			
		

> Looking around the website they also have bulbs to use on boats. Could you put one of these into a waterproof halogen downlighter fitting for a shower?
> http://www.ultraleds.co.uk/ultra-mr16-l ... -1940.html (fixed)
> 45w equivalent for 20 quid.



Those look promising from a power perspective. I suppose you could cut a hole in the tank hood, and have the vented side on the outside, for cooling, and use silicon to seal the screwed-on front-glass, from the inside, for semi-waterproofing. For a heatsink, a heavy metal washer might work, if heat was still a problem.


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## Ed Seeley

Cheers for all the inputs guys.  My DIY skills are ok, until it comes to what I call fiddly electronics like this!!!  Once I know what to do I can get the job done - it's just knowing what bits and peices I need!  I hoped, rather optimistically, that those strips might be good enough, but after reading some it's High Output ones that I need and a fair few of them matched to a proper quality power source too.

Please keep going with options though this is something we all need to be looking at as power prices go up; never mind saving a little bit of the planet   !


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## SteveyG

Spider Pig said:
			
		

> How about these ones:
> http://www.ultraleds.co.uk/water-proof- ... -1573.html
> 
> Waterproof, supposedly high brightness- 20w equivalent for 12 quid each. 6000K near enough daylight. What else do you need to run them?
> 
> http://www.ultraleds.co.uk/ultra-mr16-l ... 1940.html-
> 45w equivalent for 20 quid.



The second ones won't be 45W equivalent   Look a couple of lines down in the spec and it draws 3.6W including the driver. The three 1W leds are a better option in my opinion.


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## Spider Pig

So how does a 1w high output bulb or the other one compare with a normal t5- i.e how many would you need to replace 20w t5? Are the equivalencies given on the website (20, 45w) advertising BS- surely you aren't allowed to be that far off if, as you say scott, the 1w is equivalent to only 6w.

aptsys- if the 45w equivalent one only draws 3.6w, what does that mean for the power- I thought that LEDs were meant to be much more efficient than flourescent.

Here are a couple of others on the site- but I assume that they aren't high output and so won't have sufficient intensity to get to the bottom of most tanks
http://www.ultraleds.co.uk/metre-waterp ... -1840.html
http://www.ultraleds.co.uk/water-proof- ... -1361.html

Found data sheets on some other LEDs here:
http://www.hebeiltd.com.cn/?p=led.power
Can't say I can make head or tail of it. A quick google search revealed that most of the industry seems to be in China- no doubt there's some chinese city dedicated to LED manufacture.

This is a bit of a diversion- but how effective would normal halogen downlighters be- like the shower ones. They certainly seem bright enough, not sure about the spectrum though. 

I really have to leave this- wasting far too much time   - but interesting none the less


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## scottturnbull

I've got a TMC Aquaray, which has 5 x 3W (or thereabouts) high output leds. The LEDs dissipate 12 Watts. It's claimed the output is equivalent to a 24 Watt T5. It doesn't stop there, though. LEDs apparently have better depth penetration. TMC say at a depth of 50 cm their LEDs produce 33% more output than a 24W T5.

There doesn't seem to be anything special about TMC's leds. They look like most high-output LEDs of comparable power.

Of those LEDs you posted yesterday, 5 of either would produce similar output. For the first one - the water proof ones - you'd end up with 15 emitters in total. The annoying part, is that you'd end up spending about the same as you would buying a TMC Aquaray. 

Obviously, if you already have T5s you could just buy a few to supplement the output. If you want to completely replace your T5s, you are better off buying loose high-output LEDs from Phillips or someone like that. They even sell heatsinks and optics. You'd still have to rig-up waterproofing yourself. I reckon it would probably cost about half the price of a TMC Aquaray, if you went down that route. That's probably what I'll look to do myself, longer term.


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## SteveyG

The latest generation of cool white LEDs that you will see in LED strips like this are approximately equal to T5 lamps at around 60 to 100 lumens per watt, so metal halides are in general still the most efficiency white light source. 

However, while the efficiency is similar for T5 and LEDs, if the light is collimated you will get more useful light into the aquarium from an LED than T5 watt for watt. But to replace 108W of T5 lights for example, you'd probably still be looking at 70W or more of LEDs...

The 'equivalent' light output is not equivalent at all. A typical 60W incandescent lamp has a light output around 900 to 1000 lumens. So for an LED with efficiency of 70 lm/W you'd still need 14W of LEDs running at 25Â°C. It is also worth noting that LED brightness drops fairly rapidly with increasing temperature, and these high power LEDs require decent heatsinking to keep near their rated efficiency.

These do look more promising though:
http://www.ultraleds.co.uk/metre-waterp ... -1840.html


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## SteveyG

scottturnbull said:
			
		

> I've got a TMC Aquaray, which has 5 x 3W (or thereabouts) high output leds. The LEDs dissipate 12 Watts. It's claimed the output is equivalent to a 24 Watt T5. It doesn't stop there, though. LEDs apparently have better depth penetration. TMC say at a depth of 50 cm their LEDs produce 33% more output than a 24W T5.



Their output equivalence will be based on a poor or no reflector on the T5. Whether they have better depth penetration will depend on the lenses on the LEDs. So if you are looking for the highest depth penetration you'd want a highly collimated beam from the LED, but coverage would be very patchy near to the surface.


Having said all this, I am about to supplement my T5 lights with about 40W of LEDs with a system I am building from scratch. I have all the parts now, so I will shortly start building, and will create a thread of the progress if there is any interest? You can then learn from my mistakes   I'm an electronic engineer doing a lot of optical work at work at the moment so hopefully there shouldn't be too many mistakes...


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## Spider Pig

This is too addictive and I wish I knew a bit about electronics to have a go DIY at this- although I won't need it for another 2-3 years at least, by which time LEDs will have come down in price etc. i remember learning about lumens, steradians, candelas for my exams but all that went out of my head long ago.

How about this:
20W LED Emitter (18V~20V / 800 Lumens White) [E1202] : Electronic Gadgets, Home Gifts & Unusual Novelty Gifts - BestOfferBuy

Demonstrated:


I assume the more intense the source the better the penetration through the water, so if you had an adequate heat sink with these set ups then would it be a good solution? Can the heatsink be passive or do you need active ventilation like a fan?
With the correct know how and equipment I'm sure it would be easy to knock up a waterproof version.
Given that a lot of this stuff seems to come from China, I'm surprised that there isn't already an aquarium version available out there given how popular fishkeeping is in places like Hong Kong.

Work to do...must ignore random flight of fancy that really don't need


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## SteveyG

We have some 150W LEDs at work, which are serious beasts and need peltier cooling, but they do lose their efficiency compared to 1/3/5W LEDs. The 20W LEDs are a bit more difficult to work with than 4 x 5W LEDs for example as the heat is concentrated in a very small area. If you could sort out the thermal design, then several of those in an aquarium would do a good job!

The heatsinks can be passive or active, but a passive heatsink would obviously have to be several times larger to achieve the same heat dissipation. This is where T5 tubes and metal halides have the advantage - they do not have to be kept at near room temperatures to maintain a decent lifetime and light output.


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## zig

Elos the aquarium company use Philips Luxeon rebel LEDs in their reef tank LEd fixtures, they probably give good light penetration levels.

http://www.philipslumileds.com/products/line.cfm?lineid=19


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## SteveyG

They're a bugger to DIY with though, unless you can get hold of the versions already mounted on an aluminium star.


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## scottturnbull

aptsys said:
			
		

> Their output equivalence will be based on a poor or no reflector on the T5. Whether they have better depth penetration will depend on the lenses on the LEDs. So if you are looking for the highest depth penetration you'd want a highly collimated beam from the LED, but coverage would be very patchy near to the surface.



You're right about the patchy surface light-spread with the TMCs. Although it looks really cool, it might play havoc with tall plants like Vallis nana.


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## ceg4048

aptsys said:
			
		

> The latest generation of cool white LEDs that you will see in LED strips like this are approximately equal to T5 lamps at around 60 to 100 lumens per watt, so metal halides are in general still the most efficiency white light source.
> 
> However, while the efficiency is similar for T5 and LEDs, if the light is collimated you will get more useful light into the aquarium from an LED than T5 watt for watt. But to replace 108W of T5 lights for example, you'd probably still be looking at 70W or more of LEDs...


Hi,
    One should use caution when analyzing and comparing effectiveness of various bulb technologies. For example, while lumens are an excellent parameter to use when determining human perception of brightness it is a completely useless parameter when used in the context of plant growth. Lumens is by definition a human perception measurement not a direct light energy parameter. Plants don't photosynthesize in direct response to lumens or to watts for that matter, but instead respond to the quantum energy levels based on photon delivery rate per unit area, also known as Photon Flux Density. This can only be measured with a PAR meter which directly measures the photon flux in units of moles quanta per square meter per second, and of course, is only valid over the range 400nm-700nm. This is referred to as Photosynthetically Active Radiation (PAR).

Lux, lumens or foot-candles are based on the perception of light by the human eye, which is maximally sensitive to light within the green region of the spectrum, at 555 nm. Our sensitivity falls off  at higher and lower wavelengths and even approaches zero within the blue and red, wavelength regions which are important for photosynthesis. So while it may seem superficially that a certain light bulb is "brighter" or has better "penetration" investigation may reveal that a less exotic bulb type produces a higher energy PAR profile across the X-Y-Z dimensions of a tank. 

Likewise, watts ratings have little meaning even though we use a watts per gallon rule, which served as a useful simplified guideline when everyone used the same bulb technology. We have yet to do a proper objective comparison across bulb technologies using a PAR meter, so while there may be  aesthetic appeal of whatever bulb type one chooses, one should keep in mind the above. Having said all that it should be noted that plants have amazing adaptability and will grow just as well with whatever bulb type we choose, whether a sexy LED or a humble incandescent bulb from isle 9 in Tesco. 

Cheers,


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## LondonDragon

Have a look here Ed if you haven't seen this thread yet:

http://www.tropicalfish.site5.com/tfc/s ... hp?t=79416

Hope that helps, doesn't seem that complicated really.

Edit: One more  http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/foru ... array.html

Test on plant growth using LEDs and PC lighting

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/foru ... stars.html


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## SteveyG

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Hi,
> One should use caution when analyzing and comparing effectiveness of various bulb technologies. For example, while lumens are an excellent parameter to use when determining human perception of brightness it is a completely useless parameter when used in the context of plant growth. Lumens is by definition a human perception measurement not a direct light energy parameter. Plants don't photosynthesize in direct response to lumens or to watts for that matter, but instead respond to the quantum energy levels based on photon delivery rate per unit area, also known as Photon Flux Density. This can only be measured with a PAR meter which directly measures the photon flux in units of moles quanta per square meter per second, and of course, is only valid over the range 400nm-700nm. This is referred to as Photosynthetically Active Radiation (PAR).



Whilst of course what you wrote is correct, comparing light sources using lumens is going to give a fairly close idea of the light output if we are comparing white light sources especially when you combine this with the spectrometer graphs, and is going to be the only way you can compare them without buying and testing yourself as there will be very few datasheets that give the flux density of their light sources.


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## scottturnbull

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Having said all that it should be noted that plants have amazing adaptability and will grow just as well with whatever bulb type we choose, whether a sexy LED or a humble incandescent bulb from isle 9 in Tesco.



Ideally you want to efficiently use the power you're expending. A bulb with a preponderance of green, or other unusable parts of the spectrum, is wasting a lot of energy, from a plants' perspective. From what I gather, a preponderance of red with some blue is most efficient for plant growth. Saying that, I deliberately chose a marine white TMC array because the plant specific array produces a yellow/brown tinged light. Looking at datasheets for comparable pure white LEDs, I see they have a huge blue output. The red frequencies are, by comparison, somewhat attenuated. This isn't ideal, but it's a good compromise of efficiency and appearance.


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## SteveyG

Conversely, warm white LEDs are considerably less efficient than cool white LEDs - sometimes up to 40% less. They still use the same die in the LED, but the phosphors are different causing the inefficiency. (white LEDs are usually blue LEDs with a phosphor over the top).


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## scottturnbull

aptsys said:
			
		

> Conversely, warm white LEDs are considerably less efficient than cool white LEDs - sometimes up to 40% less. They still use the same die in the LED, but the phosphors are different causing the inefficiency. (white LEDs are usually blue LEDs with a phosphor over the top).



It's still possible they are more efficient from a plant-growth perspective. You're talking about total light output vs current input. I'm talking about output at frequencies plants use most. The blue spike in the datasheet is pretty large for brilliant white, and comes at the expense of attenuated reds. Admittedly warm white doesn't have a spike anywhere near as powerful in red - or any particular frequency, for that matter - but its got good amounts of blue and red. 

Nevertheless I'll bow to your experience.


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## SteveyG

Out of interest, are you using LEDs as a full replacement or as an addition and do you have any pictures of your set up?


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## Ed Seeley

LondonDragon said:
			
		

> Have a look here Ed if you haven't seen this thread yet:
> 
> http://www.tropicalfish.site5.com/tfc/s ... hp?t=79416
> 
> Hope that helps, doesn't seem that complicated really.
> 
> Edit: One more  http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/foru ... array.html
> 
> Test on plant growth using LEDs and PC lighting
> 
> http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/foru ... stars.html



Have seen those Paulo, but thanks for posting.  Will help many looking here who haven't (and give me a good place to find them when I want to read them again!!!!).  I'm liking the idea of replacing the T6 and PCT5 lighting on my upstairs 180l tank at some point with these as that's a custom built wooden hood and would be easier to do.

To be honest guys the only thing the spectrum will do really is effect how it looks to you.  Aquatic plants can use a wide range of light as water signifcantly alters light and most 'growth' bulbs and their spectra are based on terrestrial plants AFAIK.  Take with a pinch (pile??) of salt ideas about what colour light will grow plants and algae underwater.


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## scottturnbull

aptsys said:
			
		

> Out of interest, are you using LEDs as a full replacement or as an addition and do you have any pictures of your set up?



I'm using them to boost the weak performance of a 15W T8. 

The LED array is fitted to the flap of a Juwel Rekord 70.








Close-up of optics and what looks like a current regulator, or something. Apart from a few resistors, there's little else in the way of components visible.




Patchy light at surface with only the LEDs switched on.




Spread of light from the side.




Three of these, 15 x 3W, would provide a good level of light. The light they produce is mesmerising.


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## Garuf

You can actually get LED reflectors to improve their light spread, soleu or something similar make them for their Leds and they do improve things quiet well. 
I did have the link saved but firefox has deleted all my saved pages without asking...
I did electronics at school and LED's are special in that other than resistors they need very little in terms of electronics to control them once you have a regulated transformer. A heat sink is a useful Idea if you use one in a metal halide style format rather than as a strip, but I would say one would be otherwise superfluous.


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## scottturnbull

Ed Seeley said:
			
		

> To be honest guys the only thing the spectrum will do really is effect how it looks to you.  Aquatic plants can use a wide range of light as water signifcantly alters light and most 'growth' bulbs and their spectra are based on terrestrial plants AFAIK.  Take with a pinch (pile??) of salt ideas about what colour light will grow plants and algae underwater.



While that's true for fluorescents and other traditional lighting, LEDs are capable of producing light at very narrow frequency ranges. The difference between a normal fluorescent and a plant growth fluorescent is minimal, with certain bands emphasised. Look at the spectral characteristics for blue, green, amber and red LEDs on page 9 of this pdf.


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## ceg4048

scottturnbull said:
			
		

> ceg4048 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Having said all that it should be noted that plants have amazing adaptability and will grow just as well with whatever bulb type we choose, whether a sexy LED or a humble incandescent bulb from isle 9 in Tesco.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ideally you want to efficiently use the power you're expending. A bulb with a preponderance of green, or other unusable parts of the spectrum, is wasting a lot of energy, from a plants' perspective. From what I gather, a preponderance of red with some blue is most efficient for plant growth...
Click to expand...

Actually this is another popular misconception. You can grow plants fairly efficiently with nothing but green light. As I stated earlier the use of light by plants is based on a set of  quantum principles and is not as simple as just what colour the light is. The adaptability of the plant to variation of spectral curves has to do with it's ability to produce auxiliary pigments which have a sensitivity range in between blue and red. These special pigments are actually able to mutate non-blue and non-red wavelengths into other wavelengths or they have the ability to release electrons from the pigment molecule during photon collision and relay the quantized energy on to the chlorophyll to be used in the Electron Transport Chain.

As a result photosynthetic efficiency is a very murky subject which transcends the electrochemical equations of power delivery. 

Regarding the use of spectral curves one must again take care. The peaks in the spectral curves are completely irrelevant. Vendors try to fool us with their marketing efforts using these curves, but the spectral energy delivered by the bulb is the area under the entire spectral curve. The spikes shows the relative energy level at a specific wavelength only. Therefore the area under the spike at a given wavelength may not be that much compared with the area under the rest of the curve. Another factor to consider is that higher frequencies produce higher photon delivery rates even though may look dim to us (this goes back to the lumen effect discussed earlier). We can observe that a pure blue bulb will "look" dim and will appear to have poor "penetration", yet it's higher frequency may actually deliver a high PAR profile than a light with a green component and which has a much higher lumen value! There are so many competing principles/factors, some effects negating or enhancing others, that it really is quite impossible to determine photosynthetic efficiency unless one performs specific tests to determine total biomass increase as a function of bulb type and versus total consumed watthours. 

The bottom line therefore is that one should just get whatever "looks the coolest" whether it be ripple effects, moonbeams, batman or teenage mutant ninja turtle effects, which will be about as accurate in real plant growth terms as any lumen/watt or power/efficiency analysis one could conceive...

Cheers,


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## SteveyG

Thanks for the pictures scottturnbull.



			
				Garuf said:
			
		

> I did electronics at school and LED's are special in that other than resistors they need very little in terms of electronics to control them once you have a regulated transformer. A heat sink is a useful Idea if you use one in a metal halide style format rather than as a strip, but I would say one would be otherwise superfluous.



You don't want to be driving multi-watt LEDs with a resistor or you'll be dramatically reducing their efficiency!!


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## scottturnbull

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Actually this is another popular misconception. You can grow plants fairly efficiently with nothing but green light. As I stated earlier the use of light by plants is based on a set of  quantum principles and is not as simple as just what colour the light is. The adaptability of the plant to variation of spectral curves has to do with it's ability to produce auxiliary pigments which have a sensitivity range in between blue and red. These special pigments are actually able to mutate non-blue and non-red wavelengths into other wavelengths or they have the ability to release electrons from the pigment molecule during photon collision and relay the quantized energy on to the chlorophyll to be used in the Electron Transport Chain.
> 
> As a result photosynthetic efficiency is a very murky subject which transcends the electrochemical equations of power delivery.



Can you show me your references?

Accessory pigment Xanthophyll 450-480nm (more or less blue).

Beta-carotine around 200nm (basically ultraviolet).

Chlorophyll a, peaks around 400 and 600 (blue and red).

Chlorophyll b, peaks around 400 and 600 (blue and red).

I think you're overstating the ability of accessory pigments, they have their own unique absorption spectra, and vary between plants. In an aquatic environment, the majority of plants are vegetative green, with a minority of other colours. I don't see accessory pigments - given that for vegetative plants most accessory pigments absorb blue and red - playing the magical role you ascribe to them. Maybe in flowering plants, where pigmentation varies more.

I'd like to see your data. I'm not an expert on this by any means. But a quick search about I struggled to find any accessory pigments in plants which utilise green wavelengths in any noticeable way.

As for electrochemical equations being incapable of grasping biochemical processes, a lot of research is being done using laser scanning fluorescent microscopes. These use exactly the same kind of spectral information to precisely target markers within cells.

*aptsys:* no problem.


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## JamesC

I'd be interested too. All the information I've ever read suggests that plants use mainly red and blue light and reflect green light, hence the reason most plants are green. This isn't saying that they don't use green. Amano has a green spike in his metal halide lamps as he says it is needed, but then a lot of his advertising is just hype.

James


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## SteveyG

I've had trouble growing non-aquatic seedlings (chili plants) with just the red and blue spectrum from red and blue high power LEDs. The leaves also ended up a bit pale. I had much better results from white LEDs, but CFLs and sodium lamps still gave the best growth. The plants must have requirements other than red and blue.


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## JamesC

Or it could be that the red and blue from LED's are the wrong wavelengths. Grolux tubes are basically all red and blue with vitually no green and they grow plants just fine. Indeed that is what Grolux tubes were designed to do.

James


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## scottturnbull

aptsys said:
			
		

> I've had trouble growing non-aquatic seedlings (chili plants) with just the red and blue spectrum from red and blue high power LEDs. The leaves also ended up a bit pale. I had much better results from white LEDs, but CFLs and sodium lamps still gave the best growth. The plants must have requirements other than red and blue.



White are probably easier to deploy, by the sound of things, more like traditional lights. I was just making the point that the spectrum matters more with narrow-band LEDs than with fluorescents.

What components are you planning to drive your LEDs with? I was thinking about trying a L165 opamp as a PMW oscillator, or using a L200 without PWM.


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## SteveyG

I'll probably use some Zetex ZXLD1350 and ZXLD1360's which I have somewhere (I've not unpacked all my electronics stuff despite moving house 9 months ago!), but I also have some PIC10F204s which I've been using as (cheaper!) switching regulators.

The plan will probably be to have a bunch of constant current drivers as close to the LEDs as possible, driven by the main controller which I will also be re-building. The controller will also dim the T5s, and control the CO2 solenoid etc.


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## ceg4048

scottturnbull said:
			
		

> I think you're overstating the ability of accessory pigments, they have their own unique absorption spectra, and vary between plants. In an aquatic environment, the majority of plants are vegetative green, with a minority of other colours. I don't see accessory pigments - given that for vegetative plants most accessory pigments absorb blue and red - playing the magical role you ascribe to them. Maybe in flowering plants, where pigmentation varies more.
> I'd like to see your data. I'm not an expert on this by any means. But a quick search about I struggled to find any accessory pigments in plants which utilise green wavelengths in any noticeable way.





			
				JamesC said:
			
		

> I'd be interested too. All the information I've ever read suggests that plants use mainly red and blue light and reflect green light, hence the reason most plants are green. This isn't saying that they don't use green. Amano has a green spike in his metal halide lamps as he says it is needed, but then a lot of his advertising is just hype.


Hi guys,
            Consider for a moment red plants. Do they not use red? Do they use only green and blue. Clearly the answer is no. The green reflected in green plants is reflected by the most populous green chlorophyll, that's true, but other pigments are mixed in and they respond to the green light. In a world dominated by blue and red the plants can afford to ignore some green but there are environments where green and blue are dominant. In these scenarios the plants will respond by adding the necessary pigments.

There's data out there regarding the performance of auxiliary pigments. There's work by Park S. Nobel in his book entitled  Physicochemical & Environmental Plant Physiology Blue and Red light are important in that the varying ratios of the two stimulates certain different functions depending on the ratio value.

Of course the is the trusty Barr Newsletter Light and Photosynthesis which ought to be standard reading.

Besides, beyond the theoretical you actually have it in your power to go out and actually try it. You don't need to build your own rocket ship. Go get a small tank and go get some light bulbs of various colors/types, cover the glass so that you can eliminate the influence of external light and see if the plant grows. Green, blue or red light bulbs, as well as DIY fluorescent bulbs from the hardware store. This is not a big deal. I didn't do scientific tests and I didn't compare dry weights or analyze power efficiencies or anything like that. They were just silly tests to superficially disprove the Grolux and Gucci designer Â£30 bulb marketing efforts. 

What you might be underestimating is the adaptability of plants and the science of pigment molecules. There are dozens of other auxiliary pigments groups such as phycobilin, phycoerythrin and phycocyanin. Some pigments work by responding in resonance to particular wavelengths and by fluorescing thereby changing the wavelengths and passing on their energy to the chlorophyll. Here is an interesting report on studies done regarding this principle but performed in the Red region=> Red Drop and Role of Auxiliary Pigments in Photosynthesis

Cheers,


----------



## JamesC

Can't see anything there that suggests you can grow plants in the absence of red and blue light.

James


----------



## GreenNeedle

Wow what a thread this is.  How did I miss this.  Superb link to Mr Tester's thread too.

Back on track with the actual idea, is anyone planning to try this out?  If so can they do a full journal like Mr Testers on that other forum but can they do some close ups of their fixing/soldering/wiring etc.  plus power sources/extra items?

I quite like the idea of doing one of these after reading all the way through this and MrTester's thread.  Looks cool to me and now I am a house husband I find myself quite bored at times!!!  Something to getmy brains, concentration, fingers into.

Question to the electricians:

MrTester on that forum doesn't use a screen let alone a seal inbetween the LEDs and tank and has it only 60mm from the water surface.  I notice that earlier in our thread it was said to be necessary so what is the truth there?  Is it definately needed or not?

MrTester doesn't use heatsinks which were also suggested as necessary earlier in our thread.  Was this just for the super high output LEDs and not apply to hundred of small 3mm/5mm ones?

In theory could you for example put 8 rows of lights front to back or left to right, each row wired into a seperate 12V transformer plug on timers, each timer into an 8 socket extension and then use this to do an 8 stage staggered sun effect from front to back or left to right?

I am seriously thinking about copying his efforts with the circa 500 LEDS but can't see the soldering or wiring clearly enough nor how he powers them.

Lastly if using those cheap 3mm / 5mm LEDS how many would be needed to replicate 45W T5HO.  I know this would be an approximation but a guide would be good for me. lol

AC


----------



## Spider Pig

I would have thought that using a few high output bulbs would be a better option that many low power ones as you would get better penetration through the water, although there is the problem with the heat.

Thought that these ones look promising:
http://www.luxeonstar.com/endor-rebel-c ... -p-183.php

especially if twinned with some of the different lenses available:
http://www.luxeonstar.com/polymer-optic ... -p-422.php

However they do seem a bit pricey- so not sure how much money would be saved in the end compared to current commercially available ones. Not even thinking about the waterproofing issue. Still- entertaining little project for anyone willing to take it on


----------



## JamesC

For info Dave also did a MKII of his LED system - http://www.tropicalfish.site5.com/tfc/showthread.php?t=83289

James


----------



## GreenNeedle

Thanks for that link James.  I will have a read through that later tonight.

Does anyone have any idea of how many of those 3/5mm LEDs would equal 45W T5HO?

And about the water issue.  As I see it hundreds of LEDs with the way they are 2 pins and soldered obviously leaves a lot of the 'circuit' exposed and therefore I would've though that with no screen/seal it could be mighty dangerous but MrTester seems not to be too worried.

I am prepared to take the project on but would need some links to how the wiring/powerage etc works.  I have an old soldering iron lying in one of my many boxes that I can use and a small budget but I think I can stretch to similar to Mr Tester.  I would however probs take a lot longer to do the project.

Any help would be great.  No knowledge of electronics at all but then I have no knowledge of many things that I have done via research and trial 'n' error 

AC


----------



## GreenNeedle

Great thread link there James.  Not as bling as the first but definately much easier to build and much brighter.  those LEDs are damned impressive and definately prove the people who say 1W=1W wrong. lol

With the condensation tray I have a problem.  My tank is not standard dimensions being 80cm x 36xm and therefore not sure if I could get a condensation tray to fit it!!  Question is would I need it as my unit would be 4 inches above the water line.

Other thing is I already have 3 x 40mm fans on this hood to use in the summer and where DaveTheTester says he can't hear his fan over the PC I think he must have a very loud PC.  With mine I can't hear the PC over the fans even though the PC is in front of me while the tank is 7ft away.  My PC is pretty quiet though.

If I were to fit the LEDs to square tubes rather than angle with the ends fitted into the hood so that the ends were open to the outside air would this airflow act as desired and keep the heat down?  This would also mean that there would be no need for a frame as these square tubes would just slide into place with the tank holding them.

My plan if viable would be to run 4 strips of 4 seperately.  Each on its own power supply.  this could then mean I can stagger the lighting as simulated sunlight.

Would 12V variable transformer plugs like this one I currently have be OK?  




I use this to power the moonlight and the 40mm fans.  Not at the same time of course.  I connect up the one I want to use at the time.  If these would be OK and the square tube is viable also this project for a total of 16 3W LEDs could come in at less than Â£50.  possible even less than that!!

Interested in the electricians opinions 

AC


----------



## SteveyG

Yep, I'm almost ready to start.





There's a few I may not use there, such as the superflux LEDs (at the top in the tube) and the Luxeon K2's (at the bottom). There's 5 royal blue LEDs for moonlighting, and 2 5W amber LEDs for sunrise. I also started prototyping a driver (proto board on the left). The 32x white Luxeon Star/O's will definitely be used, but I may use some 45 degree optics instead of the supplied ones:





Also have a dimmable ballast for the fluroescents and some acrylic tube which will encase the LED assembly:





The LEDs will be mounted on some aluminium strip and inserted into the tubes. The ends will have acrylic end-caps on.


----------



## SteveyG

SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> I use this to power the moonlight and the 40mm fans.  Not at the same time of course.  I connect up the one I want to use at the time.  If these would be OK and the square tube is viable also this project for a total of 16 3W LEDs could come in at less than Â£50.  possible even less than that!!



The little power supply you have is 3.6W at 12V, so you won't be able to power many high powered LEDs.


----------



## GreenNeedle

SO what is Dave The Tester meaning when he says he uses a 24V transformer for his 14 lights?  He says the following:

_To get the full 3W per LED they would need to run at 3.7V each_

I am confused now.  I thought my transformer if set at 12V would run a single strip of 4 x 3W LEDs

Is DTT wrong?  Am I missing something?


----------



## SteveyG

He's completely fudging it. These LEDs should be driven with constant current not direct off a 24V power supply with no current limiting   

It looks like he's using a 10A 24V SMPSU , and you could indeed use a 12V power supply, but yours can only supply 300mA - it needs to be much more powerful. (I think the 3W LEDs draw 700mA at about 3.4V)

I wouldn't use the Luxeon III 3W versions though as they are toasty beasts and not as efficient as the 1W ones. The K2's and rebels are worth a look if you're after more than the 1W ones can offer. The 3W ones also have the disadvantage that the metal slug which is attached to the heatsink isn't electrically isolated from the LED die. If you mount them directly to a metal heatsink without electrical isolation the heatsink then cannot be used to mount any others if you have them in series. He's been lucky that by using double sided thermal tape that he hasn't damaged any of them from this.

Edit: I just read further into that thread and it seems they are having LED failures from not driving these from constant current supplies...


----------



## GreenNeedle

What does the constant current mean.  Do you have any links to what sort of power supply is best.

Would it also be best to wire each LED direct to source rather than in line?

and do you think the idea of using open ended metal tube to mount the LEDs would work in helping remove the heat?  What are you using to keep yours cool?

AC


----------



## SteveyG

LEDs are diodes which have an IV characteristic like this: 



So once the diode is forward biased and conducting, a very small increase in voltage causes a massive increase in current. Therefore you cannot accurately drive an LED from a constant voltage source as the forward voltage varies from LED to LED, so whatever voltage might happen to keep the current maintained at x for one LED could end up seriously overdriving or underdriving another LED. The temperature of the LED also affects the current at a particular voltage, which leads to thermal runaway - the LED starts getting warm, forward voltage drops so current increases, this heats the LED more causing the forward voltage to drop further until it destroys the LED.

By controlling the current into the LED we have a nice big area we can safely control the LED and no matter what manufacturing differences between LEDs you have it'll always be driving at your chosen current.

If you're into ebay, these kinds of things can be used:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/350MA-10W-Current ... 240%3A1318

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/3W-Power-LED-Driv ... 240%3A1318

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1W-LED-Driver-for ... 240%3A1318

You should always have your LEDs connected in series, as this will guarantee each LED sees the same current and therefore close to equal brightness. If you have them in parallel you will not get even current distribution between LEDs so some may end up being overdriven.


----------



## GreenNeedle

I think I'l wait till someone does one and then puts up a journal type thing. lol with clear explanantions for the unknowledgable.  I guess MrTester made it look much easier than it actually is the way he did it.

AC


----------



## SteveyG

And then everybody fried their LEDs   

I'll start a new thread soon, although progress might be slow as I'm feeling a bit lazy at the moment


----------



## GreenNeedle

What about something like this.  How many 3W could one of these power?  And would I then need to split it to several of those 3W drivers each powering 3/4 LEDs

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HP-F1044B-AC-DC-P ... dZViewItem

Please forgive my lack of knowledge here.  I get a bit carried away when a new project interests me.

AC


----------



## GreenNeedle

I have decided to 'probably' waste some money now. lol.  Don't ever let the housewife tell you that she is overworked.  My house is incredibly clean.  The washing basket is empty, the cupboards are full of food.  the oven is clean etc. etc. and I am soooo bored with nothing to do so this project is a must for me now I'm house husband. lol

I want however to do this the cheap, easy way for me if possible and was thinking of this idea;

Each individual 3W 700ma 3.67V LED to be mounted individual screwed to the wooden hood like the diagram below:



blue is a bent strip of aluminium, red is a heatsink, green is the LED, black are screws/bolts

Then 16 of these individual units wired in groups of 4 to seperate 12V 700Ma plugs(DC/AC adpator plug) using a 12V current controller making 3V into each LED:



blue are the individual units, red and black are the+/- wires, green is the current controller and pink is the wire to the DC adaptor.

Also in this diagram there are 2 in fans and 2 out fans.  All the heatsink fins would have be lined up with their fin ends facing the fans.  There would then be a simple piece of clear perspex or glass 2 inches below the LEDs that would seperate the water from the airflow to avoid too much evaporation.

Question. Have I got this right.  I know its not perfect but will it work.  Should I use thermal tape/grease in between the LED/aluminium/heatsink of each unit etc.  Is it a good idea to keep it as individual from a replacement point of view?

AC


----------



## SteveyG

That power supply is just a tad under 40W, so you could drive 13 LEDs from it.

As I said before, there is a line in the Luxeon III datasheet that says "3.Electrical insulation between neighboring Stars is required â€”aluminum board is not electrically neutral.". You will need an insulating material between the LEDs and your aluminium if it is going to be one complete section holding more than one LED. Luxeon I's do not suffer from this problem, but you would need twice as many to get the same light output (the light output from the 3W'ers is not the same as three 1W'ers hence the reason they get so hot!!)

You also want to connect your LEDs in series, so you have one wire from the driver to one to the anode on the first star, the cathode on the first star to the anode on the 2nd star etc then loop back from the final one back to the driver. Obviously polarity matters.

Yes, use thermal grease (if you can keep the aluminium separate between LEDs) or an electrically insulative but thermally conductive tape/film if you cannot. The screws must be insulated too! I'm using plastic nuts/bolts

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/90W-15-24V-Laptop ... 240%3A1318

Or if you can prevent contact with the mains terminals:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/60W-Single-Output ... 240%3A1318

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MEAN-WELL-S-60-24 ... 240%3A1318


----------



## GreenNeedle

Is this what you mean by series?




So if I were to use the tape on each unit between the LED and the bent aluminum strip I could then fit the individual units to another aluminum sheet the size of my hood and fix that in as one full unit?

And am I right in thinking that a single 12V - 700Ma adaptor plug could run each series of 4 at 3V each? (or 12 x 1W @ 1V each)

EDIT : Just got a reply back from a vendor of the drivers/controls and he says each one needs 1.5V leaving 10.5V left over so that would mean if I put 4 x 3W on each they would only be able to get 2.625V each if I am thinking correctly?

AC


----------



## SteveyG

The drawing is now correct, but you won't be able to drive 4 in series from a 12V supply. In reality you will need at least at 16V supply for four white LEDs in series and the driver. 24V would be recommended though and 4 in series will still be fine because the driver controls the current. Voltage is irrelevant so long as it's higher than the maximum forward voltage of 4 LEDs and the driver voltage drop. 

The LEDs won't conduct below their threshold voltage which will be about 3V. This is the point on the IV graph in my earlier post where the current suddenly starts to rise.

Your drawing is also correct now.


----------



## GreenNeedle

I think I am starting to understand now,  Problem is I have loads of 12V 700ma-1000ma lying around the house and therefore with me reducing costs it makes sense to use them. lol  Saves some money and also provides a cheap way of being able to sequence the lights too as I also have plenty of timers.

Would you say I should run 5 series of 3 with 5 adaptors of these and settle at 15 LEDs?  Not after huge amount of light.  Am I right in assuming that 15 x 3W even slightly underpowered will better 48W of fluorescent even if 30W of that is T5HO??

I was thinking of using this sort of heatsink that are used on memory chips:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... :IT&ih=022

each unit would then be a dedicated strip of aluminium fixed into the hood or perspex with the heatsink one side and the LED the other.

Thanks for your help matey.  I suppose others are reading with interest too.  I can see a surge of DIY LED lighting coming 

AC


----------



## SteveyG

Yeah strings of 3 LEDs from 12V supplies would work fine, and those heatsinks look ideal. It may be worth you getting some optics/collimators for your LEDs depending on your aquarium size and the distance between the LEDs and the water source, but these can be added later of course.

What size is your aquarium?


----------



## GreenNeedle

I suppose that's the hardest part to work out.  The plan was to make a board to fix into the hood ceiling and then attach the bent aluminium strips to this and screw the whole thing into the hood so the LEDs were the same distance from the water as the current fluorescents.

That means the following dimensions.

Actual tank (inside measurements) are:
Length = 790mm
Depth = 340mm
Substrate level (at deepest point) to water Level = 355mm
current distance of lights (lowest point) to water level = 100mm

I assume you are assessing the angle of spread from the LED as to wether it would work as well per watt as T5HO with v good reflector?

Here is the modified plan:





AC


----------



## SteveyG

You should get quite a good spread of light with the LEDs spaced evenly across the hood with that size tank and that number of LEDs. If you ever needed higher intensity, it would not be difficult to add further LEDs at the diagonals between the existing LEDs.


----------



## GreenNeedle

How much brighter do you think this LED setup at full would be than it's T5HO equivalent?  Don't want to go too highlight. lol

One other reason I am sticking to the 3W is the ease of soldering but also that they are Â£40 for 20 off ebay inc shipping.

AC


----------



## SteveyG

It's difficult to say. You should be looking at similar light outputs to T5, perhaps even better.

Got a link to the auction for the LEDs?


----------



## GreenNeedle

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/20x-White-High-Po ... m153.l1262

I have sent him a message asking for the K but I am guessing tey are 5500K at the mo

AC


----------



## GreenNeedle

These could bring the price of twenty down to Â£36!!!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... :IT&ih=015

AC


----------



## Ed Seeley

That plan's looking good Andy.  I'm thinking I need to have a go at one of these over the Christmas holidays maybe.  One thing that would really help me is if we could sort of get a comprehensive shopping list of ideal requirements here between us.  All the sparkies and experienced people on here would be able to help us with that I am sure.

The only thing that's putting me off slightly is that the guy on the other forum had all of his burn out!  Why did this happen?  Did he run too much current through them or was it the wrong type of power source?  Would it be better to have multiple smaller power unit driving 3 LEDs like Andy's planning or a larger, more expensive but better regulated/designed power source driving more LEDs?

I suppose what I'm saying is what is the ideal way of building an LED light?


----------



## GreenNeedle

I'm doing it this way as it leaves room for error (mistake on one and only 3 LEDs at risk) plus I can get the sun moving across the tank with these individual timers without any knowledge of a controller to do it.

Apparently the ones on the other thread burnt out due to not having current controllers

The list I have at present is:
aluminium bar to cut and bend for each LEDS mount

2 sheets of perspex the internal measurements of my hood.  1 to rest on the hood feet seperating light from water and also stopping the air from the fans assisting evaporation.  The other to be the main mount which will hold the aluminium mounts cut to my fixed section and flap dimensions (the front of each series is going on the flap!!!)

wire which I have no idea which type or where to get it, nor what it is called.

20 x 3W LEDs (5 spare)
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... :IT&ih=015

5 x current controllers for each series of 3
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/3W-Power-LED-Driv ... dZViewItem

16 x heat sinks for the rear side of each mount (1 spare)
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... :IT&ih=022

2 x double fans:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... :IT&ih=002


Plus 5 x 12V adaptors and 5 x timers

Don't think I've missed anything  bzzzzzzzzz   

AC


----------



## SteveyG

Ed: The reason they burnt out is that LEDs do not work like incandescent lamps. LEDs do not conduct until they reach a threshold voltage. There may then be only a 0.5V range between 0 and 100% brightness, and any higher will cause the LED to overheat. If you control the current into an LED, you can easily control the brightness and also limit the maximum current and hence prevent any damage to the LED. The LED then doesn't succumb to supply voltage variances because the constant current driver adjusts it's duty cycle accordingly.


----------



## JamesM

Those fans are mega loud guys.


----------



## GreenNeedle

James - how do you power yours?

For example I was complaining the other day about the loudness of mine whilst reading MrTester's thread with him saying he couldn't hear them.

Then I turned the voltage down from 12V to 6V and then to 4.5V and I couldn't hear them  At 6 they are quiet and at 4.5V they are almost silent

So rather than have 1 fan running at 12V you can run 2 at 6 or 3 at 4.5V which solves the noise issue.

The lower speed doesn't matter too much.  We're not after gale force, just a light breeze flowing from in from one end and out of the other.

AC


----------



## JamesM

I used to use them a lot when I modded pc's, so I ran them at 12v. I always went back to 120mm fans as they're super silent. 

I have trouble remembering what I did last week, let alone 20 years ago at school electronics, so I'm looking forward to this build a lot  Don't like the idea of 5 power supplies though...


----------



## GreenNeedle

5 power supplies in terms of plugs but they won't be drawing that much power really.  there will only be one cable outer coming from the hood though with all the rest fed through it and then seperating again within the cabinet.  Probs use one of those round comb binder zip up type of cable tidys. (They are Â£1 for 2m in Poundland )

The fans I currently have on the hood are 40mm and were super noisy at 12V.  Think of an old PC booting up, then multiply that by 2.  Now at 4.5W they are super silent.  Powerhead is noisier. lol

AC


----------



## SteveyG

James is right - If you can, look at getting the largest fan you can. Perhaps mount it to the top of the hood rather than the side as the big fans are a lot quieter and if you throttle down the voltage they can be silent.


----------



## JamesM

5 Power supplies is still an issue. I have enough extension sockets running around my house, I don't need any more :? If someone can come up with a 240v conversion however...


----------



## SteveyG

Don't worry - mine will be one plug only


----------



## JamesM

aptsys said:
			
		

> Don't worry - mine will be one plug only


Brilliant! Looking forward to seeing you put it together


----------



## GreenNeedle

Annoyingly unknowledgable again but.....

....With the current controller....if it is a 12V and requires 1.5V for itself that leaves 10.5 to power the LEDs.  Does that mean that if an LED says 3.6V and my idea being a series of 3 that it won't run on 3.5V (one third of 10.5)?

Will it not work at all, or will it deteriorate quicker or....?

AC


----------



## SteveyG

You'll be right on the limit of not being able to get full brightness from the LEDs. It would be a bit more comfortable to have more headroom by using a 15V or 18V PSU, but if you already have some power supplies going for free, you can always see how well it works with those first. You won't damage anything.


----------



## GreenNeedle

I've just costed this little project up and WOW I underestimated it. lol

So far I get:
Perspex for group mount and condensation barrier - Â£15 from Wickes (huge sheet but smallest they have)
Aluminium bar for individual mounts - Â£3 from B&Q
Double Cooling Fans x 4 (8 fans!!!) - Â£10 off ebay (already bought)
3W LEDs x 20 - Â£36 off ebay
Current Controllers/Drivers x 5 - Â£27 off ebay (already bought)
Heatsink x 16 - Â£5 off ebay (already bought)
Thermal tape - Â£5 from Maplins

Thats Â£101 without the price of timers and DC plugs which I already had!!!!

Also doesn't include wire.  Which wire am I looking for?  Will bell wire do?

Finally the 5 adaptors I have say the following on them. will they all be OK to use?
12V 800Ma
3V - 12V - Rating up to 1200Ma
12V 1400Ma
3V - 12V 800Ma
13.5V - 1000Ma

Can you tell I'm a little excited 

AC
AC


----------



## SteveyG

16/0.2mm equipment wire would be ideal. I'd avoid bell wire as it's a little thin and will not help with the inductance to the LEDs.

There's a Maplin in Lincoln - http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=6197


----------



## BINKSY1973

Hello, first post here so please be gentle, lol

                             I like the idea of using led lighting, those drivers AC linked too earlier look a nice find, also would be using 3w leds with  forward voltage of 3.7v (700ma)i have a 2 foot tank, 15 inches deep by 16 inches tall, was thinking 2 rows of 5? too much? So i emailed the supplier of those drivers and asked if it would be possiable to use one power source for two drivers, and i got a reply back saying that could be done, power wired in parallel. So if i was to use a 24v power source on those drivers what wattage would be needed for the above?

            Cheers Gordon


----------



## SteveyG

The limit on how many LEDs you can have is based on both the maximum current and maximum voltage from your AC adapter. SuperColey is using so many power supplies because they can only supply about 1A at 12V which is 12W. If your power supply can supply more current, you can have more drivers in parallel. If your power supply has a higher voltage (observing the maximum voltage of the drivers which is about 24V) then you can have more LEDs in series per driver.

The formulas would be as follows for one string of LEDs connected to a *switching* (not linear) constant current driver:

(Power supply voltage - Voltage drop of driver due to output transistors) / LED forward voltage = number of LEDs (round this figure DOWN)

Required power supply current = (((LED forward voltage * number of LEDs) + voltage drop of driver) / Supply Voltage) * LED current. (Note this excludes any inefficiency of the driver. I suggest you add 15%)

If you had a 24V supply, then you could have about 5 LEDs in series per driver, so two rows of 5 would be perfect.
Your power supply would need to supply around 1.4A. (preferably more so you are not running it near it's max)

Most switching constant current drivers should have the ability to vary the LED intensity, but 30W sounds a good start for a 2ft tank.


----------



## JamesM

Would a pc power supply be suitable?


----------



## BINKSY1973

Thanks for the informative post with those formulas very helpful. I have just seen a 24v 2.65a 65w power supply on ebay, item no 250320031262. So looks good for my requirments. Those drivers Andy linked to earlier in the thread use a buck mode switching regulator so sound perfect.

               So here is a recap just to confirm what im looking to do.

                One 24v 2.65a power supply.

                Two led drivers. (power wired in parallell)

                10 3w leds forward voltage of 3.7v. 5 from each driver wired in series.

               Thanks for all the info in this thread so far.

                       Cheers Gordon


----------



## SteveyG

Yep, all sounds good Gordon.

James, you can use a PC power supply, but the ATX spec requires both the 5V and 12V lines to be loaded to properly regulate the outputs (and sometimes even to turn on). I think the 5V line requires somewhere near an amp load, and the 12V line about half an amp, which kind of throws any efficiency out the window as it is unlikely you'll drive your LEDs off the 5V line. It also doesn't help that PC power supplies are massively inefficient with low loads. It might be worth you finding something better suited unless this doesn't bother you.


----------



## BINKSY1973

Thanks Aptsys, i think this will be a project for next year, what with xmas looming etc. But good to know my plan will work.

         Cheers Gordon


----------



## GreenNeedle

Does this look right?

This plug runs 900ma at 12V.  the current controller is where I think I may be wrong.  I have points for positive supply (+), negative supply (-), control input (A).  Then on the oposite side I have positive and negative cathode which I assume are where to connect the LED series to

From the positive cathode I then enter each LED on a positive and then exit the LED on a negative to join the next LED on a positive.  At the end of the series I then return to the negative cathode on the controller.






AC


----------



## zig

Nice work boys definitely going to try this as well, turning into a seriously good thread


----------



## scottturnbull

SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> Does this look right?
> 
> This plug runs 900ma at 12V.  the current controller is where I think I may be wrong.  I have points for positive supply (+), negative supply (-), control input (A).



It looks like you're connecting the negative supply rail to the control input. 

Wouldn't you be better off with something like this?

It's more expensive than a separate driver and power supply for each bank of 4 x 3W. But it is combined, with less hassle, and designed to run either 9 x 1W LEDs @ 350ma, or 4 x 3W LEDs @ 700ma.

There's also a 16 LED driver capable of sourcing either 16 x 1W, or 8 x 3W LEDs, that includes dimming by adding some simple components, for about 30 quid each.


----------



## Voo

SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> Does this look right?
> 
> This plug runs 900ma at 12V.  the current controller is where I think I may be wrong.  I have points for positive supply (+), negative supply (-), control input (A).  Then on the oposite side I have positive and negative cathode which I assume are where to connect the LED series to
> 
> From the positive cathode I then enter each LED on a positive and then exit the LED on a negative to join the next LED on a positive.  At the end of the series I then return to the negative cathode on the controller.
> 
> AC




I actually bought one of these controllers last week for my nightlights i was making using ordinary leds. You'll need to check the input and output as the +ve input is not on the same level as the output (ie if + input is at the top, + output is at the bottom on the other side).


----------



## BINKSY1973

Andy,

                  It also looks like to me that you have the positive on the outgoing side of the controller connected to the Negative. I just had a quick look at the picture on ebay at that controller and the + and - are clearly marked. But one way to be sure is to check with a multimeter (if you have one) Plug in the supply and power up the controller, leave the output side disconnected, put the red lead on the pos terminal, the black lead on the neg terminal, and it should read 12, if you have it the wrong way round it will read -12v. Make sure the meter is set to DC voltage. Hope that makes sense.

                                  Cheers Gordon.


----------



## SteveyG

Tomorrow afternoon I'm going to start work on my system. My HC 'cuba' seems to be suffering a little in my Rio 240 lit by two 54W T5's. I tested an additional 54W T5 on the aquarium tonight and immediately all the lower level plants started pearling, but it is impractical to add the 54W tube as the layout of the Jewel hood really causes problems with space and access. Suspended luminaries are out of the question too due to having two little feline terrors that love to sit on the hood and paw at the glass . The spare 54W 1149mm tubes are a real squeeze lengthways as well due to the plastic trim round the top and I'm not willing to pay for the special Jewel sized T5 tubes.

I'm going to be adding 32W (32 x 1W) of cool white LEDs with 45 degree optics and 5W of royal blue LEDs for moonlighting. I do have some stunning 180 lumen Luxeon rebel LEDs which I'd love to use, but they get a little too hot to run in the acrylic tube


----------



## GreenNeedle

Looking forward to it.  Can we see loads of close ups of the actual soldering etc as well as the complete series before you put them in the acrylic tubes?

AC


----------



## SteveyG

I'll make sure I take plenty of photos


----------



## GreenNeedle

Well I got bored and had a go at a series of 3.

Running from a 1000ma 12V adaptor.  This is a pic of 9W of light in my living room with everything turned off (The camera is 12ft away from the LEDs and looking from the sides)




And here is a pic from 2ft away directly above.  (My eyes are aching just from taking this pic!!!!  Its like welding flash (if anyone knows what that is.  Hope my retinas aren't burnt and wake me up in agony through the night )




I will admit it didn't go as smoothly as I would've liked.  This post was begging for advice until I edited just now.  It wasn't working and then I decided to try each LED.  1 worked and the other 2 didn't.  I think I may have burnt them trying to make the solder too neat and taking too long.  Got 2 fresh ones and went splodge, splodge and then it worked.

One lesson learnt 

AC


----------



## GreenNeedle

As a final post of my test, I put the series of 3 on the front flap of my hood just to see what they look like.  Wrong way round as it is 3 left to right whereas I will have 3 front to back and then 5 rows across.  Crudely fastened them into my hood.

If anything I think the light looks better than the fluorescents!!!  You can see the ripples on the substrate and shadows moving from the leaves etc.  looks really cool.

So these LEDs at max are 3.7V.  I am putting 3.5V in so I assume that means instead of pushing out 3W they are pushing out 2.8W?

Anyway here is the series attached to the front flap of the hood:




This is a close up of the LED and heatsink screwed into the flap:




This is how the tank looks with 48W (1.45WPG) of 4500K/6500K Fluorescent (This pic was at night with all the lights off etc):




This is how the tank looks with 8.4W??? (0.25WPG) of 5500K LED all at the front (This pic is in daylight):




And a quick pic of the ripples/shadows:




Have to say I like it but thats where I stop for now.  I have to get the rest of the LEDs and that will not be for a little while so tested, happy and confident it will work I can start planning a more suitable mounting method etc.

AC


----------



## SteveyG

Looks good. My only comment is that the heatsinks look a little on the small side. What kind of temperature are they getting to?

Unfortunately I have little to show at the moment as I'm working on the PCB design first.


----------



## GreenNeedle

No idea on temperature as I only had them on for a few minute each time testing and here for 5 minutes.

Hopefully they will be OK and the fans will help.  Better than not having heatsinks at all like the method on the other forum.

AC


----------



## Ed Seeley

Looking good Andy.  Keep us posted on how they do.


----------



## GreenNeedle

I just screwed them in to see how they looked and then unscrewed them.  That series was to find out if I could do the res   I will have to redo them to alter the wiring slightly yes but now I know this driver works I can use it to test the toher LEDs and series as I do them over the next couple of months.

Once I know each string is working on the working driver I will solder them to their individual drivers knowing that if it doesn't work it's the driver on each series that is wrong not the string of LEDs.  lol

Next pics will be when the whole unit is ready to put in place and that could be some time!!!

AC

AC


----------



## GreenNeedle

Those cheap double fans I bought are silent!!!  I've run each at 12V 500ma on its own and they were silent.  Then I rigged them all up as I will be running all 4 from the same 12V 500ma.  Happy days. lol

AC


----------



## GreenNeedle

This is my plan for the mounting board.  I took an old 29" T5 reflector and cut it into 1.75" pieces to mount the heatsinks and LEDs on.  They will act as more heatsinking.  The reflector part won't really come into play but may stop some glare from direct view through the gap between the tank and 'luminaire'






And these are the fans on the 'in' side of the 'luminaire'.  The other end is identical.  Yes before you ask I have turned the fans the other way round at the other end so they are not both blowing air into the luminaire.  The left set of 4 will pull air in and the right set of 4 will pull air out.





So waiting for LEDs now.  I have actually done 3 series and fixed them to the mounting board complete with their controllers.  When I get the final 10 LEDs I will do the other 2 sets.  Then all I need to do is to wire everything up and fit an acrylic sheet into the bottom of the luminaire to 'close' it off.

AC


----------



## Ed Seeley

Looking very nice mate!  I'm itching to try one of these too on one of my tanks, but it won't be until the summer now at the earliest   .  Can't wait to see it working.


----------



## aaronnorth

i didnt realise you were going all out on this one Andy! Nice job.


----------



## GreenNeedle

With the cost involved this is not just a test. lol  I am definately aiming at a complete permanent setup here.

Cost will total about Â£110 so it needs to work for much longer than your average tube to validate the cost spent versus replacement tubes/electricity!!!

Hopefully it will last with minimal maintenance.  I'm not too bothered if a couple of the LEDs need changing each year.

My current T5 has an internal ballast fitted in the reflector so when it goes you are supposed to bin the lot and buy a replacement.  I've had it for about 18 months so its getting to the sort of time I would've replaced it.

I don't think it will save me much money overall but then the actual mount, wiring etc will never need redoing.  Just LEDs will need replacing so I'll buy spares while they still make them. lol

AC


----------



## GreenNeedle

The LEDs arrived and I now have 5 series of 3 all tested and mounted on the board.  No more soldering left to do.

I have cut the glass for the bottom of the luminaire (modified ex DIY Hood) and fitted it.

Just got to do a few little mods to the inside of the 'luminaire' and then connect all the wiring up and its 'go go go' 

I will post some pics of the completed mounting board tonight but won't be any 'working' shots until I get these mods done and fitted it in probs at the weekend.

I'm all excited 

AC


----------



## BINKSY1973

Good work Andy, can not wait to see the finished product. Some close up pics would be cool off the soldering etc. How are those heat sinks attached to those pieces of reflector? And also the LEDS to the heatsinks? Cool therm tape?


             Cheers Gordon.


----------



## GreenNeedle

Not the soldering Aargh   I had taken all the shots from distance to hide the close ups of my 'handy work'. 

This is my first experience of soldering but I will do a close up to show the setup.

The LED is mounted to the heatsinks with some therm tape that was already on the heatsinks.  Then a long screw goes through the 'reflector' mount (extra heatsinking really) and into the acrylic board.  The screw shafts fit snugly into the 'star' parts and the screw heads hold them very tightly down so the heat sink fins are touching the reflector.

Pics will show better.

AC


----------



## BINKSY1973

Thanks for the info Andy, Kinda know what mean mean about soldering was about 15 years ago i last did some, during me apprenticeship. Looking forward to pics.

            Cheers Gordon.


----------



## GreenNeedle

Some quick pics while I finish off wiring ready to insert it and connect it up.

This is from the end looking along the board.  I put this first because I though it looked quite impressive:




This is the whole board from above.  The acrylic sheet is 80cm x 34cm




And just for Binksy this is an individual close up:




Got to go...busy, busy, busy 

AC


----------



## Nick16

looking good, cant wait to see it in action.   (it looks like a drool)


----------



## GreenNeedle

I won't be posting pics of the lights after all. lol

Was very careless and connected the wrong +/- on 2 series and therefore 2 drivers burnt out.  The LEDs still work though (tested them on one that didn't burn out.)

So will wait for 2 more drivers Aargh the cost. lol and be more careful next time.

Lesson learnt I guess.  Take your time Mr Cole!!!!

AC


----------



## BINKSY1973

Ahhhhhh Andy what a school boy error, lol.


   But from them pics its looking quality mate well done.

  I need to get some cash together and get something like this done for my 2ft tank.


Cheers Gordon.


----------



## GreenNeedle

I had one eye on what I was doing and the other was watching the FA Cup highlights 

However turns out it wasn't from me wiring the polarity wrong because I wired 2 the wrong way round yet only 1 of these was one that burnt out.  The other was wired correctly.

From having a proper look this morning it seems that the 2 drivers that burnt out actually had wires that had touched (+&-)

I have now ordered 3 more drivers (1 spare) and am going to use silicon rather than tape like you see above to stop things from moving.  Then I'll blob some silicon on any contact points or bare wire too.

Shouldn't be long for them to arrive and then I shall test again. lol

AC


----------



## GreenNeedle

The replacement drivers came today and so this evening after I put the boys to bed I setup and took my time getting some soldering and wiring done and here are the results:

I left my living room light on which is directly above the board so you can see how bright these are in a normally lit room!!!

Here is the sequence from no lights to full lights.  Look at the chair legs directly behind to see the brightness!!!


















That is my sunrise effect   To see sunset all you need to do is turn your monitor upside down and then scroll up on the mousewheel 

And a couple of shots from above:







One question.  I am thinking of using these 2 pin connectors so I can disconnect all the cables easily when removing the hood.  They say AC only.  Will that cause a problem using them on this setup?




So tomorrow I need to continue with my hood modifications before putting these lights in this weekend 

AC


----------



## GreenNeedle

I have installed the lighting and it is working.  Photos don't do it justice in the slightest but then I would say that. lol

In summary I have moved from 48W fluorescent to approx 42W of LED.  I have had to raise the 'luminaire' by 6" and therefore the light is now approx 12" above the water level!!!  However it is still brighter. lol

Here is the tidied up board all lit up:




And here it is fitted into the 'luminaire'




Finally a look at the right rear corner where the wires come out of the luminaire:




Onto the lighting schedule.  forgive the quality of the pics.  A mix of poor camera and lack of photography skills here. lol

Moonlight from midnight until 3pm (running on 10V)




Light 1 comes on at 3pm




Light 2 comes on at 3-45pm




Light 3 comes on at 4-30pm




Light 4 comes on at 5-15pm




And light 5 comes on at 6pm




The full 5 series stay on until 9pm and then they turn off from the left so the reverse as in the sun moving across the sky.
Series 1 off @ 9pm, series 2 off @ 9-45pm, series 3 off at 10-30pm, series 4 off at 11-15pm and then moonlights back on at midnight.

The fans are running 24/7 and should make sure any moisture that may get into the sealed section is dried pretty quickly.

You cannot see in these pictures the shimmer.  It is absolutely amazing.  Wow factor to say the least and well worth the hours I have put into this (maybe as much as 50 hours!!!)  The cost was high compared to comparable wattage of fluoro fittings BUT these are way brighter for the watts and the effect is worth the money.

AC


----------



## vauxhallmark

Wow, you've done a FANTASTIC job!

Can't wait to see how the tank and plants respond to the new schedule.

Congratulations,

Mark


----------



## LondonDragon

Looks great and amazing job well done 
When you say you have 42W is that actual led wattage or T5 equivalent?


----------



## scottturnbull

SuperColey:

What's was the total cost (excluding breakages etc.)?

I've seen a lot more electronics coming out that is geared towards running these LEDs. Only a couple of months ago, when this thread started, I could only find a couple of things. Now Rapid have a whole lot of different Integrated Circuits for powering LEDs. The easiest option is probably this one, although it only drives 1W LEDs, the datasheet shows ones capable of delivering 700ma. Cheaper, and more work, would be something like this. They also have dedicated chips, but I haven't a clue how to solder those without making a mess. I'm pretty sure none of the above ICs were available a few months ago.

Your setup looks good, SuperColey1. I'm interested to hear how it performs longer term. I'm getting into the mood for having a go myself. I'll let you know how I get on. I'm going to start off with a plug and play driver, like this, and then gradually replace it with a circuit of my own.


----------



## Garuf

Chuffing hell I'm impressed! Fancy retro fitting my luminaire into a LED one?!


----------



## GreenNeedle

> When you say you have 42W is that actual led wattage or T5 equivalent?



I am basing the 42W on the LED output.  They use 3.7V at full power and these are only getting 3.5V after the driver has had its 1.5V so I just divided 3.7 by 3.5 and came out with 2.8W per LED.  This calculation may be wrong as I am just using a non electrician's logic here 

When all of these are on the tank is probably 25% brighter than the T5 even though they are a further 6" away and a glass sheet between them and the water!!!



> What's was the total cost (excluding breakages etc.)?



Approx Â£110 not including glass, mounting board or screws.



> Chuffing hell I'm impressed! Fancy retro fitting my luminaire into a LED one?!



I would ask one of the electrically minded. lol.  This has 7 power leads coming out the back and a Homer Simpson style extension that wants to come ofthe mountings   They could probs for a little more money get 1 power cable to do this with some sort of timer on their board doing the timing.

Thanks for the compliments and remember on the link to that other forum's setup the LEDs started frying after a few months so time will tell if this one will work.  I have done things differently though using the drivers and heatsinking properly.

One change I will make is to set the timings to a lesser amount.  Probs 30 minutes between each change to get the left 4 on and then 1 hour later the fifth.  Leave the full 5 for 3 hours then the 1st off for an hour and then half an hour interval for the other 4.  It doesn't really look like 'sunrise' with the length of time to get decent brightness the way it is but at the same time I don't want the full power for too long.

AC


----------



## aaronnorth

That is very cool, i want one


----------



## LondonDragon

SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> Approx Â£110 not including glass, mounting board or screws.


Its actually a good price considering its about the same cost as a 12W Aquabeam. Will keep an eye on your updates to see how well they do in the long run. I would also suggest you get this written up properly in a separate thread for a complete DIY tutorial, might encourage others to try it too. Keep up the good work


----------



## scottturnbull

The temperature of the heatsinks, and the ambient temperature inside the hood should give you a good indication whether they will last, or burn out. Are the heatsinks red-hot? You're looking for the actual LED junction to be around 60oC (too hot to touch for long, but not instant skin-graft heat). If you want longevity, the ambient temperature in the hood should be at or below 30oC.


----------



## altaaffe

Great effort and it looks fantastic, but look what you've done now - we're all wanting it !!


----------



## YzemaN

altaaffe said:
			
		

> Great effort and it looks fantastic, but look what you've done now - we're all wanting it !!


To qoute Brett:
Right


----------



## Ed Seeley

Awesome job Andy.  The light is so bright and I love the shimmering effect.  I have to do one of these in the summer now!  I think it might take me the 6 weeks though with my electrical skills!!!


----------



## Garuf

To make the whole assembly smaller could you not mount the LED's on a curved base so that you have a narrower hood and also lower than 12" above the tank.


----------



## GreenNeedle

LondonDragon said:
			
		

> SuperColey1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Approx Â£110 not including glass, mounting board or screws.
> 
> 
> 
> Will keep an eye on your updates to see how well they do in the long run. I would also suggest you get this written up properly in a separate thread for a complete DIY tutorial, might encourage others to try it too. Keep up the good work
Click to expand...


I said on TFF that I think warts and all threads are much more useful then write ups.  They show you mistakes and therefore you can avoid them rather than making the same mistakes as the original without knowing it.  They also show other (more knowledgable) input too!!!



> The temperature of the heatsinks, and the ambient temperature inside the hood should give you a good indication whether they will last, or burn out. Are the heatsinks red-hot? You're looking for the actual LED junction to be around 60oC (too hot to touch for long, but not instant skin-graft heat). If you want longevity, the ambient temperature in the hood should be at or below 30oC.



No idea on the 'ambient' temperature inside the hood nor the temperature of the heatsinks as it is all enclosed but there was no warmth in the air being emitted from the 'out' fans nor was the top (2cm thick wood) warm either!!!  When I tested these 4 fans each side (4 in and 4 out) they made my hand feel really cold after a minute!!! p.s. If you hold the Alt buton down and type 167 you get Âº <---------the degree symbol 



> The light is so bright and I love the shimmering effect. I have to do one of these in the summer now! I think it might take me the 6 weeks though with my electrical skills!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ed - This is my first ever attempt at soldering things!!! I have zero electrical skills  As for shimmering I am thinking about reducing my turbulence.  It is similar to a constant strobe effect at the mo!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To make the whole assembly smaller could you not mount the LED's on a curved base so that you have a narrower hood and also lower than 12" above the tank.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Of course Garuf the design is of the user's intention.  I just fitted them in what I have.  As (almost)always DIY has risks regarding cost but compared to the retail of the equivalent units you will always be the winner with something you want rather than setlling for something close.

AC


----------



## scottturnbull

SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> p.s. If you hold the Alt buton down and type 167 you get Âº <---------the degree symbol



That only works with Microsoft OSs. I'm using Linux. It has a different procedure for âž§ âž¨ âž© âžª âž« âž¬ âž­ âž® âž¯ Â°


----------



## GreenNeedle

I should say that I would not have gotten this done without the help and advice I have received on here and on TFF so thanks have to go out to Apstys, Rabbut, SteveyG, SmithRC, Binksy, Schmill, Scottturnbull, Rooster and everyone else who has helped me get this right with no knowledge behind me.  I was taking advice from several sources on this one so that I didn't end up following the wrong path  Group hug time here 8) 



I will have to add to my opinions on the lighting.  Looking into the tank with all 5 series on at the moment and it is a lot darker than with the fluoros!!!!

However that is because in one day the needle Java has gone mad and is blocking light all over the place  (This is a low light, slow growing plant remember   )

Going to get my shears out tonight. 

Another change I have noticed is that the Corys and Otos seem much more playful than before. Maybe because they are in spawning mood at the moment but I think the shimmering on the substrate may be much more natural for them.

AC


----------



## BINKSY1973

Andy,

            I must say fantastic work mate it looks super cool.

            I do hope that for all the effort you have put into this project it is a great sucsess.


            Im hoping to get some cash together soon to do something for my 2ft tank. Apart from the reflectors acting as an extra heat sink do you think they are reflecting any light back towards the tank?


             Thanks for sharing.

             Gordon.


----------



## GreenNeedle

A little I guess but not much.  The actual LED is about 2mm x 2mm below its die and it then has the star plate behind it which is 20mm diameter.

However with the die being lambertian (hemisphere in shape) it means light goes equally sideways and downward so some of the light emitted sideways may be redirected.

AC


----------



## Garuf

How many of those little led's do you think you'd need to light a 12"(l)x10"(w)x8"(h). Do you think I could retro fit one into a superfish 18w clip on light? I'm thinking it'd be perfect for an experiment.


----------



## GreenNeedle

Thats what I am doing for my 10ltr nursery when I set it up.  Am using 1 series of 3 so potential 9W probs nearer 8.4W

I'm using collimators, lenses and the proper heatsinks and then fixing it to a homemade luminaire. lol

AC


----------



## Garuf

Reckon 4 would be enough then? I'd be using 18w so is it as simple as halfing it?


----------



## GreenNeedle

I would say so.  these things are very bright and so far plants growing very well even though LEDs are 42W -12 inches above the water compared to 48W fluoro 4" above the water.

AC


----------



## Garuf

Pm me with where you got everything with from please?


----------



## GreenNeedle

Will do

AC


----------



## spider72

Hi guys, great thread.
I feel infected by LED virus, and for sure I will try it.

Americans are playing with LEDs from few years now and I have found some threads on Aquaticplancentral forum.

One guy tryed estimated LED requirements for plants:



			
				mcjosh13 said:
			
		

> Anecdotal evidence from the few people who have used LEDs for planted aquariums (like Corry Keeper) seems to be inline with the aforementioned Lumen value so a good starting off guideline should be:
> 
> 1. Around 61 white LED lumens/gal w/40 degree optics should support good plant growth similar to 2.5-3 WPG rule
> 
> 2. Around 80 white LED lumens/gal without optics should support similar growth to above if the tank is not too deep. Also if not using optics, LEDs with more narrow radiation patterns (like Crees) will offer significantly better performance then those with wider radiation patterns like Seoul's and Luxeon's.


Link to whole thread: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/foru ... ter-4.html

Other guy from APC forum did experiment almost 5 years ego, growing plants side by side for comparison of 7x1watt Luxeons vs 1x7watt PC (Azoo palm light). 




Link to whole thread: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/foru ... stars.html


----------



## Themuleous

Man thats crazy!!  Great work.  I've not been following this thread much but from the looks of the final product a LOT of work has gone into it! Quality.

UKAPS Baby!

Sam


----------



## GreenNeedle

I think the first one is far too much work for a realistic DIY setup.  I remember the first link from JamesC in this thread where the chap wired up 800 or so normal LEDs for this.  That rules almost all of us out and I don't think it would be too succesful

The second one is quite interesting although it doesn't show much to me.  I've bored and infuriated some for a long time saying I would rather have T8 linear than PC lighting.  Much better spread, better colouration and better growth IMO from the linear.

Would've been interesting to see his comparison of LED versus T5HO linear instead.  I think they are not that far apart to the eye but I can already see the LED wins hands down growth wise.  Maybe this is due to his 'flicker' theory of the fluoro not actually being on 100% of the time.

I see you talk about the radiation patterns of different types of LED (Seoul, Luxeon K2 etc.)  Its not actually the different LEDs that have different radiation patterns.  It is the die shape and if you look on the Philips site (link below) and no doubt the other manufacturer's sites that all of their LEDs are available with different shape dies!!  There is Lambertian which is like a hemisphere, Batwing which has a flat front and rounded corners then flat sides, and then side emitter which is like a diamond's head.

http://www.philipslumileds.com/technolo ... tterns.cfm

The lambertian will push light equally around the hemisphere, batwing will push most ofit's light out  of the front and Side Emitter will push front and sides:

However with all of them you can then use a choice of collimaters and lenses to 'focus' the light as desired.

Good project for 5 years ago though.  Way ahead of the rest I have seen. 

AC


----------



## scottturnbull

Here's some photographs of the LEDs I've been playing with. These are two 1W Luxeons with Batwing lenses, using 25Â° optics. They are powered by a Recom RCD-24 (the black box on the right half of the breadboard). The datasheet for the RCD-24 shows similar ICs capable of driving 3W LEDs, but I can't find anywhere that sells them.

The left half of the breadboard is this circuit (scroll down) minus the output transistor. It's just a simple 555 timer circuit for testing the dimmer. I plan to use a proper digital PWM through time. 

At close to 0% duty cycle, the output is almost at maximum (the current is shown on the supply). It should read 350ma, but the rudimentary 555 Timer circuit isn't capable of producing a 0% duty cycle.





At nearly 100% duty cycle the LEDs are very dim.




These are just the extremes. I'm fairly impressed by the Recom. I can see myself using them.

I've also been playing around with the VariLED 16 LED driver. It's okay, but the analogue dimmer doesn't do much. The LEDs dim to about 60%, and that's it.

EDIT: When I get some decent heatsink material, I'll post a better shot of the actual light from a good number of LEDs using the dimmer.

EDIT2: I had some nice Oscilloscope screen captures, but for some reason they aren't being displayed. Too bad.


----------



## GreenNeedle

A little tell tale update!!!

The LEDs have been on for a week and watching my DC it is getting closer to dark green each day from the light green it was at!!!  Therefore more CO2 is being used   Will have to up it a little tomorrow.

I'm sure you can all draw your own conclusions as to why this has happened 

Some links Garuf requested:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... :IT&ih=023
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... :IT&ih=015

AC


----------



## GreenNeedle

The lenses and heatsinks arrived today.

Very impressed with the lenses.  they just clip onto the LED 'pushfit' style and look to me like they magnify the light quite a lot.

I only bought 3 for the new mini unit so I am going to try them on 1 series in the main luminaire.  If they don't shoot beams into the water then I may get 15 more for the main unit.

AC


----------



## scottturnbull

SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> The lenses and heatsinks arrived today.



Did you get them from Hong Kong? I've got some on the way, slightly held up by the Chinese New Year.

I'm not keen on the optics I have at the moment. Too much light spills through the white plastic, and they don't stay in place all that well.

I'm going to need an eye test soon, after staring at all these bright LEDs.


----------



## GreenNeedle

Yep the lenses are from the same supplier as the LEDs off ebay.

Tried to fit them in the main luminaire to see what they were like and......

.......can't fit them on because the screwheads I used stop the lense holder clipping in place. lol

However if they look good on the small tank without beams showing through the water then I may reverse my main luminaire's design.  I mean that there sould then be an acrylic panel instead of transparent glass, the lense is then superglued on the inside above very slightly smaller holes in the acrylic.

Then the LEDs just clip into place.

I will take a few photos of the way I have attached them in the small luminaire and try the small luminaire over the big tank to see what it is like with and without lenses.

AC


----------



## scottturnbull

SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> I mean that there sould then be an acrylic panel instead of transparent glass, the lense is then superglued on the inside above very slightly smaller holes in the acrylic.



I was thinking along similar lines. I was going to cut holes in plastic trunking, or something similar, and seal the lenses, so the lens holder becomes a column inside the trunking for the star to sit on. The trunking lid could then be closed on top, with cutouts made for the heatsinks. It'll probably be fiddly, but it means the heatsinks will be on the outside, and the electrics should be protected from the water.

It might be a while before I get a chance to start the DIY side of things. I'm concentrating on the dimmer circuit for now. I need to find a decent, cost-effective USB interface capable of delivering PWM (Pulse Width Modulation). When I find that, I'll have to write a program for it. It will take a while, but I'll get there eventually.

EDIT: This stuff is good for attaching LEDs to heatsinks (without using screws).


----------



## GreenNeedle

scottturnbull said:
			
		

> This stuff[/url] is good for attaching LEDs to heatsinks (without using screws).



That would mean spending money. lol

The reason for the screws was that the original design is a board which then means every is hanging from above, hence the screws hold everything up.  Seeing how good these lenses are with the push fit idea means I can fix to the bottom panel rather than the top panel and therefore Gravity works in my favour then 

You will see how I have done it with things I already had in the next post which I will start as soon as I have finished this one 

AC


----------



## GreenNeedle

Onto the Nano luminaire now.  All finished in a total of about 6 hours of which most of that was spent on making the luminaire (and then getting a little carried away decorating it )

So here is the unpainted, unfitted luminaire on top of the nursery Nano (which I made out of an old window last week )
The base panel where thelights will be is 6mm clear acrylic and the sides are 2mm.  Again was somethng I had lying around.  An old leaflet holder that my Dad brought around with a load of scrap wood that I made my shed from 





The lenses on the Stars:










Then a star fixed to heatsink.  I have used thermal compound because I had some from when I removed my PC processor during a problem period.  I then superglued over the edges of the star to stop it 'sliding'




The lenses glued and then siliconed into position inside the luminaire.  I wanted to actually fit the lenses into the holes but this acrylic is quite hard to cut perfectly and therefore I decided to fit these above the holes.  If I do the main luminaire like this I will use wood because it is much easier to do these sort of holes and then I can fit the lense flush with the surface within the hole.

you can see how carried away I got with the decoration now. lol.  Aluminium car spray, then some decals from a bike, then gloss enamel spray to finish it (all of which I had lying around)




And the lenses viewed through the holes:




Testing it viewed from below:




And an idea of the brightness of 3 LEDs.  The floor below is about 3ft from the LED.  The water in the tank this is going on will be about 6 inches below!!!:




And the finished article ready for the tank test!!!




I will do a comparitive test of the light with and without lenses later although it won't be exactly scientific as I will 1 series of the main luminaire at the same height as this little luminaire for the 'without lenses' test.  Therefore different LEDs and slightly different spacing but will give an idea of the difference between using and not using lenses.

AC


----------



## Garuf

I demand pictures over water. Now.


----------



## GreenNeedle

I'm doing my water change at the mo and then will do it once the water settles a little.  give me an hour or so. lol

AC


----------



## Garuf

haha, it's 1am why are you doing a water change?!


----------



## GreenNeedle

Because I won't have time tomorrow and my photoperiod is from 3pm to 12am!!!  therefore I normally do it Saturday mornings. lol

I also take my time on water changes.

Uploading photos now.  May be tomorrow you see them now 

AC


----------



## GreenNeedle

This is with the 'lensed' mini luminaire.  3 LEDs




A little bit closer




this is with the unlensed main luminaire lowered so the LEDs are at the same distance from the water.  Just the 3 LEDs in this position are being used for this photo so is a reasonable comparison:




So you can quite easily see that without lenses the light is spread much better, however with the lenses it pentrates much better as you can see from the substrate in the 2 photos.  1 problem I see is that with lenses the light's 'colour' seems to be altered to slightly yellow!!!  Maybe a trick of the eye.

Also to remember that looking at the first photo that is an 18" tall tank.  approx 14" from substrate to waterline.  The mini luminaire will be on a tank that is 8" tall and approx 6" from substrate to waterline!!!  This picture says to me it will be fine:




My conclusions which may be different to others is that on a highlight tank with much more than the 15 LEDs I have on my main luminaire then lenses should be OK but with 15 like mine then the lenses narrow the beam too much!!!  The spread that you get without the lenses is much better for my setup.  Howeve on the smaller tank then there doesn't need to be so much spread and therefore the lenses seem to work fine.  Will be interesting to see what the colouration is like once the tank is running!

Your conclusions may be different.

AC


----------



## Tony Swinney

Tremendous stuff SC !!  I was thinking of trying a nano setup, having followed your work on the main luminaire.

On the nano, if you wanted to have the LED's timed separately to create 'natural' lighting patterns, do you think it would be better without the lenses ?  I'm wondering whether the lensed LED's have too much of a spotlight effect for this ?  Just a thought   

Any chance of a 'shopping list' for the nano luminaire  :?: 

Great stuff   

Tony


----------



## Ed Seeley

Great stuff Andy; love the decoration of it mate!  Pimped up nicely!   

Interesting about the light spread.  On a larger lumiere I suppose you could have a mix of lensed and unlensed LEDs to have a mixture of light effects.  My next tank will definitely be DIY LED now!!!!


----------



## GreenNeedle

From this diagram you can see the problem that I would have if I 'lensed' the main luminaire with it's current amount of LEDs.  This is due to their spacing.  Seeing as I want a natural sun movement effect then its quite important to get an even spread through the tank whereas with these lenses there would be visible brighter spots.  Shouldn't be a problem on the Nano because they are so close together.




This could be remedied by having more LEDs to get them all closer together but then I have already seen that growth is higher already than with the fluoros and therefore that would defeat another of my objects which is to stay 'lowish' light. lol

These are 30Âº lenses and there are 45Âº ones plus then there are eliptical ones that are 140Âº.  I can't see the point in getting 140Âº ones to solve the issue because I may as well leave them as they are without lenses which is 'apparently' 120Âº. lol

They could be used for effect I suppose 

Parts list is 3 x 3W LED White (not warm white)
1 x 3W driver (from linked seller)
3 x lense (from linked seller)
3 x heatsink (from linked seller)
1 x 12V power adaptor
Wire
Silicon
Superglue
Thermal Compound or thermal tape.

With this seller you can just send them a message asking for the parts you want and they will give you a pretty good quote.  I asked for 3 lenses and 3 heatsinks and they quote me $6 inc shipping (Â£4 )
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... :IT&ih=023

I would however get 5 LEDs, then you can match the best 3 colourwise and also have 2 spares incase they are needed.

No idea on the natural effect with 3 LEDs.  For my knowledge that would still require 3 plugs and 3 individual drivers but I am sure there are other simpler ways of doing it 

AC


----------



## scottturnbull

Great work. You should go into manufacturing. 

I know what you mean about the lenses on the original tank. That's why I'm growing carpeting plants with my TMCs. I've got no other choice. 

45Â° lenses might be better on a larger tank where the LEDs are spaced apart; or as you've done, just use the emitter lens on its own.

You even made your own tank. That's impressive DIY skills.


----------



## aaronnorth

that looks well smart!


----------



## scottturnbull

I managed to find somewhere that sells the 700mA version of the Recom RCD-24. It should be able to power about 6-7 x 3W LEDs from a 24V supply. At a push, it might power 9-10 x 3W LEDs. But that would require almost 36V, which is more than most affordable supplies can source, and is also dangerously close to the absolute maximum of the device itself.


----------



## spider72

Nice work again SuperColey1

I am going to build LED light for my small 35 liters Arcadia tank, and I am going to use 14 x 1W lumileds instead of 3W ones, because tank is quite small, 1W leds have better lumen/Watt ratio and as I learned from Apsys post, they are not emiting too much heat.
If somebody is looking for 1W lumileds, here is where I have found quite chip source: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 0302227030 these have batwing radiation pattern.
As a power source I am going to use VariLED 16 LED driver because it looks like it is straight forward plug and play device.
I will make a luminaire using 1mm thick aluminium sheet, but I don't know that I will still need heatsinks if I am going to mount leds directly to luminaire using thermally conductive tape. Do you think 1mm thick aluminium luminaire will be enough to take and spread heat from the 1W leds or it is better to use heatsinks?


----------



## scottturnbull

spider72 said:
			
		

> Nice work again SuperColey1
> 
> I am going to build LED light for my small 35 liters Arcadia tank, and I am going to use 14 x 1W lumileds instead of 3W ones, because tank is quite small, 1W leds have better lumen/Watt ratio and as I learned from Apsys post, they are not emiting too much heat.
> If somebody is looking for 1W lumileds, here is where I have found quite chip source: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 0302227030 these have batwing radiation pattern.



spider72: I bought some of those 1W Leds. Some of the lenses are scuffed (that's probably why they are so cheap). They don't seem to be damaged too much. They look like they've been lying around the floor or something. Just so you know, they aren't in perfect condition.

For the heatsinks, you might get away with 1mm. I read somewhere that 1W Star LEDs can be used without a heasink, if the air circulation is good. But if I was you, I would probably go with something a bit thicker than 1mm, especially if the Luminaire is enclosed.


----------



## spider72

scottturnbull
I already received these 1W leds and indeed one lens is damaged, but as I only need 14 than I still have one spare, which is not bad for the money.

Thanks for your advice about heatsinks, luminaire will be open and it will hang about 25cm over the tank, so I think air circulation should be sufficient for not to use the heatsinks, but if not, there should be not a problem to add them later. I will also use 2mm aluminium sheet for the top of luminaire, where leds will be mounted.
Regards


----------



## GreenNeedle

A few shots of LED heaven for all of the addicts. lol:

This is both tanks.  The main tank only has 3 of the 5 series on in this pic so that 2.8W x 9 = 25.2W = 0.76WPG!!!  The top one is 3 x 2.8W = 8.4W:






And a couple of the mini tank.  This is the luminaire that has the 30Âº lenses in. I like the effect they give but may eventually pull the lenses off and get rid of the focus if the plants at the edges don't do well (they aren't planted yet )







AC


----------



## GreenNeedle

Some more pics:

These pics do not compare the LED without the lense properly to the lensed one because I am still using the lense holder as it holds the LED nicely in place.  Also there is the 6mm acrylic so basically instead of the Lense 'restricting' the spread it is now free to bounce around the 'tunnel' created by the lense holder and acrylic before being able to spread where it wants when it reaches the end.

This means there is not the light spread that you saw on the main luminaire where the whole LED is open to emit light in all directions.

Here is a comparison. The 2 lights on the left have lenses in and the one on the right does not:




This is the tank first with the lenses in and then without any lenses:







Doesn't look hugely different at first glance because this is only an 8" high tank so we do not need long reaching beams here but you can clearly see in the centre of the tank the white brightness has gone and in the front corners there is a better spread of light.  There is better light all around in reality but then I've spoken about my photography skills before. lol.  Take a look at the tank side of the heater and the colour of the silicon for a good insight into what I mean.  

Both of these photos were taken in a room where all the light (apart from the main tank's luminaire is on below) is turned off.  The camera is on auto everything except for white balance which is on Daylight Fluorescent.

AC


----------



## scottturnbull

The hot-spots definitely look good. It's an effect only LEDs seem to be able to produce. 

I take it you are playing around with the lenses because you anticipate problems with the coverage?

Nice tanks AC. 

I'm getting pretty close to settling on a PWM controller. Once I've got it working I'll post the circuit. The one I'm working on at the moment is cross-platform (it has drivers for Windows, Macs, and Linux), and costs between 30-40 quid. Not bad, considering the EasyLife LED computer costs over 200 quid. It also has other inputs and outputs, which could be used for logging temperature etc.


----------



## GreenNeedle

I wasn't overly happy with it when I did it really.  I thought it looked great as your run of the mill office ornament but when you actually look at the substrate it was a case of crazy bright in the centre and no very bright on the outer limits etc.

It is good now and I think the glosso will like it a lot more 

By the way its not going leggy.  I planted the emersed plants in clumps and am waiting for it to root and spread before chopping it right down to the substrate to get the carpet to grow 

AC


----------



## BINKSY1973

Right all i have ordered some luxeon leds and heatsinks earlier this week. (same source as Andys)

But the source Andy got his drivers from has none listed at the moment, i have sent an email asking if they will be getting anymore.

So im trying to get some from else where in case the above does not come through.

 I have found these ones from China [urlhttp://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1W-LED-Driver-for-Luxeon-White-Green-Blue_W0QQitemZ250385722095QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET?hash=item250385722095&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1683%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318][/url]ot sure why they only recommend 15 volts though when they can have a maxium voltage of 24 volts.

Anyone know of anything else avaliable? im looking to drive 8 to 10 1w leds.

Cheers Gordon.


----------



## scottturnbull

BINKSY1973 said:
			
		

> Anyone know of anything else avaliable? im looking to drive 8 to 10 1w leds.
> Cheers Gordon.



 If you can afford it, I'd get one of these. It drives up to 9 x 1Watt LEDs, and you don't need to worry about the voltages or transformers or anything like that. It senses the number of LEDs you are driving.

It might seem more expensive than those ebay drivers, but those also require a transformer to run, so it probably works out cheaper in the long run.


----------



## BINKSY1973

Actually thats not a bad price, thanks for that, only thing is if i go for 10 leds then i would need2 then it becomes expensive.

I have a 24v power source, which i did not pay for so shall continue searching for now.

Chees Gordon.


----------



## BINKSY1973

Ok just had a reply from the seller on ebay, and he is getting some more drivers and is going to relist soon, so panic over and as mentoned earlier i already have a 24v dc power supply. Happy days.

Cheers Gordon.


----------



## flash

hi all
just started looking into led as an alternative light source and found this site .LEDF.CO.UK has anyone tried the replacement t8 tubes ?
cheers flash


----------



## spider72

Hi
I have finished my LED lamp and it is working from about 4 weeks now, just I did not have enough time to show you this masterpiece of engineering   
Lamp is design for 35 liters Arcadia tank, and uses 14 pcs of 1W Luxeon Star LEDs with batwing colimator. Color temp. is 5500K (white, or cool white) and light angle is approx. 100-110 deg. Leds are drived and powered by Variled driver made by Lumidrive, as I was to lazy to assemble my own driver, and Variled is quite small and looks quite compact together with such small lamp.

Here are pictures of a tank with original Arcadia lamp with 6500K fluorescent 11W







16pcs of 1W Luxeons cost me about 12Â£ delivered.
Lamp body is made of 1mm thk aluminium sheet from ebay, about 8Â£ delivered, driver about 35Â£ + other screws, nuts and bolts, etc.
Total cost about: 55-60Â£.

Lamp:




LEDs:




Tank lit with LEDs:







LEDs are hanging over about 15cm above water surface, but I figured out that is a little too high, and too much light was going out of tank. I was too lazy to rebuild lamp body, so I bought 60 deg optics, 20 pcs for 7Â£ delivered from HongKong and this is how it looks like now:

Optics:




Tank with optics:







As you can see, with optics more light is going to the tank, less light on the walls arround.

SuperColey1, I have 6 spare optics left (60deg), if you would like to try them on your nano than let me know by pm, I can give you 3 pcs, as your 30deg looks quite narrow.


----------



## GreenNeedle

I don't use the lense/collimators at all now.  I have the bare LED die siliconed to the hole.  I have also chopped the stand 'seats' off so the unit is now directly resting on the surface.  Wasn't cutting the mustard with the smaller tank.

If I were you I would lower yours, doesn't look anywhere near as bright as the orig tropical which is a bad sign knowing how dim Orig Tropicals can look!!!

Maybe the camera adjusting the light but doesn't look as bright to me!!!

Your lense collimaters are for batwing whereas my LEDs are lambertian!!!  May not work/fit anyway   Thanks for the offer though 

AC


----------



## scottturnbull

Spider72:

That's very cool. The light looks fine to me. There's more definition with LEDs than with the original lamp.

A word of advice. There is 240V going into that driver. It's just a few inches away from the water, and the luminaire is metal. You might want to fix the driver to the wall, and run a cable to the hood for the LEDs.


----------



## BINKSY1973

Hi all,

           Have got most of my kit together for LED Lighting using 1w power luxeon LEDS. Im having trouble soldering on the wires for some reason. I have brought a 30w soldering iron. Any of you got any tips on soldering the wire onto the LEDS?


----------



## GreenNeedle

what I did was hold the wire to the solder plate and then press down with the soldering iron.  The minute I felt it move I pulled it off. probs talking half a second for each one.  That is with an old soldering iron that is virtually shwing all the copper too. lol

Ones I had trouble with I dipped the tip of the wire in some flux first and then 'dabbed' the soldering iron on.

AC


----------



## BINKSY1973

SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> what I did was hold the wire to the solder plate and then press down with the soldering iron.



 Thanks for the tip. Did you put some solder onto the wire first? or are you saying there is solder on the plate of the led? 

Cheers Gordon.


----------



## BINKSY1973

Ok managed to get one joint done, tinned the wire and held it on the plate with the iron. Have tries to do another one, but doesn't seem to matter how long ikeep the iron there for, it won't remelt the solder. Any one any idea why?

Cheers Gordon.


----------



## BINKSY1973

Ok no worrys people, seem to have got the hang off it now.

Cheers Gordon.


----------



## GreenNeedle

tin the solder plate first.  Just a dab on top, then tin the wire, press and hey presto.

AC


----------



## Tony Swinney

HI

I just thought I'd resurrect his thread, as I'm thinking of converting my old luminaire to led's.  Are your setups still going strong Andy ?  Anything you would have done differently in retrospect ?

Also, do you have a link to the seller on ebay who you used ?  The earlier links have now expired.

Cheers

Tony


----------



## Tony Swinney

I'm thinking of using three of these:

(http://www.rapidonline.com/producti...immable-16-LED-driver&moduleno=75705#techspec)

to have 3 banks of 16 1w LEDs, giving 48w total.  This will replace the 2 x 39w T5HO's that are there presently.  I'd like to keep the luminaire at a similar height to where it is now - about 40cm above the water.  If can space the led centres at 4cm intervals then I can just about fit the 2 rows of 24 in the luminaire.  Each row of 24 would be mounted on a 1m length of ali heatsink.

I'd be interested to hear what you think, and also for any recommendations on the choice of led. Do you think heat will be a problem ?

Cheers

Tony


----------



## zig

Tonser said:
			
		

> I'm thinking of using three of these:
> 
> (http://www.rapidonline.com/producti...immable-16-LED-driver&moduleno=75705#techspec)
> 
> to have 3 banks of 16 1w LEDs, giving 48w total.  This will replace the 2 x 39w T5HO's that are there presently.  I'd like to keep the luminaire at a similar height to where it is now - about 40cm above the water.  If can space the led centres at 4cm intervals then I can just about fit the 2 rows of 24 in the luminaire.  Each row of 24 would be mounted on a 1m length of ali heatsink.
> 
> I'd be interested to hear what you think, and also for any recommendations on the choice of led. Do you think heat will be a problem ?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Tony



Hi Tony, I have been looking into this as well lately. Don't know where Andy is, AWOL the last month or so, maybe he will pop back in soon and share his wisdom. Its a pity most of the links in this thread are expired/redundant.

I dont think the 1Watt LEDs will be any good, you need to go 3Watts for more intensity, popular 3watt LEDs are Cree and Luxeon Rebels. You need something like this, these are very popular. The Cree LEDs run cooler than most others as far as I know, heat is an issue with these High power type of LEDs.

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.2394

The tank I am trying to light is 60Wx45Dx36H cm, I am going to use about 20 x 3Watt LEDs, the luminaire will be raised above the tank, 20 LEDs may be a tad too much but somewhere around that level, I can always just suspend the Luminaire higher if needs be.

Here's the best place so far that I have found to try and work through the LED maze for our purposes, the lighting section of Nano-Reef.com, its still a bit complex for an electrical newb like me so more reading/research to do on this. Look in the 'Important Topics' section at the top of this page in the lighting section, loads of relevant information there lots of projects links etc. Read through the threads as well, you know the drill Im sure but I have found it really good. 

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?s=26717ed5498df81141f836d886d0a08b&showforum=25

Another thing you will quickly realise is that It works out more expensive than you think, an equivelant T5 setup could be cheaper. Personally though I am just going to treat it as a project so although cost is a factor its not the overiding one for me anyway.

Let us know what you learn mate, still trying to get my head around it myself.


----------



## Tony Swinney

Hi Peter

Thanks for your post, and all the information too     I'm in  a similar position to you regarding treating it as a project, and  I'm sure the long term savings will out weigh the initial expense, especially compared to the 2 x 150w MH I have as an alternative !

I've had a quick flick through the nano-reef site, and there are some serious set-ups there !  I'll try and have a good read through them all this weekend.

Cheers

Tony


----------



## jarthel

Is there some sort of guide for the number of LEDs required for a particular T5 HO lighting? like 4x 54w TO 4ft = 100 1W cree xr-e super bright LEDs.

thank you


----------



## jarthel

where can I get the lenses? also why is a dimmer required?

thank you very much


----------



## Garuf

Did we get as far as establishing a rule for the number of leds for a tank size? I'm looking at a making a fixture for a 30 gallon, would 20 leds be enough or would I need more? Overkill? Any technology updates I should be aware of?


----------



## zig

Garuf said:
			
		

> Did we get as far as establishing a rule for the number of leds for a tank size? I'm looking at a making a fixture for a 30 gallon, would 20 leds be enough or would I need more? Overkill? Any technology updates I should be aware of?



Sorry missed this, I havent done anything on my own setup yet but will shortly.

From what I can gather reading around the web it is not really the wattage we should concentrate on but the PAR levels that the LEDs emit but for our purposes I think its easier to work on the wattages to give you a basic ballpark figure to work on.
I'm working on the basis that you need Half the amount of wattage from LEDs as you would from running HO T5s, not very scientific but it gives you a basic starting figure to work from, as I point out below the LED lighting rig when made up should be very versitile anyway and give you numerous lighting options, high light low light etc. Another thing you do need to consider though is the lighting coverage, use too few LEDs and you won't get the lighting coverage for the tank, thats why you may need to run a few more LEDs than nescessary when you run the math on the wattage figures.

I would say 20x3W LEDS would be about right for a 30 gallon, you should aim to run 2 or 3 strings of LEDS, so each string can run independently, hence you can lower the light if need be, you can also incorporate dimmers for each string giving you even more control so having too much light shouldnt really be a problem.

I should add in a disclaimer here as well, I'm far from an expert so do lots of your own research, that reef forum site linked above should pretty well cover everything we need for our purposes.


----------



## Garuf

Thanks, Peter.
I've been discussing the project with a fellow member and we settled on the figure of 21 with 3 strings of 7 being the optimal number. 

We never touched on dimmers though so that's something I'll have to look into, the other thing I neglected to look up was timing, I was under the assumption each driver would be going to one over all plug, a bit like those cable tidys you used to see, this mean I wouldn't be able to have a mid day burst or let the lights come on gradually to avoid startling the fish, is there any way of doing this does anyone know?

I've also got the impression that the led's can't be lit in Parallel? I was certain this wasn't the case but the more I read the more it reads like they have to be wired in series.

Thanks for the reply.


----------



## Tony Swinney

Hi Garuf

I havent had a chance to look in to this any further, and will be away for the next few weeks.  Hopefully I'll get into it once I return, so keep us posted with anything you do   

Cheers

Tony


----------



## Garuf

Shall do, with any luck I'll be putting through the order in the next week or so and I'll get my finalised lum plans up, also some schematics if I can remember all the symbols.


----------



## FishBeast

I am new to the DIY LED thing but I have been looking into it based in luminems. The ones I should be comming home to today are 3w 150 luminems. I go for 3000 luminems for my planted tank so I would try to work it out like that. I have a lux meter here so once I get some more brightness into my moonlight/daylight setup I will post the results here.

It would be interesting to see how much the lux dims off over distance, and aswell as the bring into consideration the overlap of the light.


----------



## Tony Swinney

Hi FishBeast

I look forward to seeing the results of your tests - keep us posted, thanks.

Tony


----------



## Tony Swinney

I've been having a rummage around the 'net this morning and came across these:

http://www.ledrise.com/product_info...0--176---powersupply-included-for-15-30V.html

strips of 8 x Cree leds, giving 1440 lumens,  Each strip is 27cm long, and a pair of them could be housed in one of these: 

http://www.ledrise.com/product_info...-and-case-set-for-Extreme-Line-SMD--60cm.html

which gives you both the heatsink, and makes them splashproof.  You need a power supply too, which I've emailed them about the best one to go for, and how many strips can be run off each supply.

So for a 60cm 'unit' with 16 leds, giving a total of 2880lumens, cost would be about â‚¬140 including a power supply.  

For my 5ft x 2ft tank, I'm thinking you could mount them on an aluminium frame, something like the one in this thread:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1587273

What do you guys think, any good ?

Tony


----------



## Garuf

I'd noticed those but couldn't find a single review or reference point. The wide angle led's might be an issue but I wouldn't know. I'm aiming for 21 leds on my unit for a 60x45 foot print so for me it'd still work out very expensive. The biggest issue I'm finding is finding the most efficient cost wise power supply and drivers. I was hoping to stumble across a 50x25 cm heatsink but that's not happened the choice for heatsinks alone is baffling, if only the cost was more effective I really think they'd be a great altenative but I'd be nervous to part with my cash.


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## zig

I reckon Im going to hold off doing a DIY model after seeing the Maxspect, its only a question of time before other Chinese manufacturers start knocking these out really cheap after the runaway success of the consistantly soldout Maxspect. 

The Maxspect are aimed at reefers so you need to swop out some of the LEDs, the cheapest Maxspect model G1-60W (18x3W LEDs) is only about Â£150-Â£160 delivered this would be fine for a 60cm tank, you just need to swop out the 8 blue LEDs, the other 10 LEDs are 10k white which are fine, hard to beat on price considering it all comes complete ready to go pretty much.

http://www.fish-street.com/maxspect_programmable_led_aquarium_lighting?category_id=126

Others manufacturers will follow pretty soon I would imagine.


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## Garuf

Cheers for the link Zig, that works out at about Â£30 more expensive than my proposed DIY. Have you contacted the seller to know about the waiting list times or anything like that?
Since you first posted them there's been no new news at all.


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## zig

Garuf said:
			
		

> Cheers for the link Zig, that works out at about Â£30 more expensive than my proposed DIY. Have you contacted the seller to know about the waiting list times or anything like that?
> Since you first posted them there's been no new news at all.



The guy in fish street speaks english his name is Eric just give him an email if you need to know anything in particular, AFAIK waiting time is about a month for the newer G2 models, shipping is a rip but you can choose Airmail (cheaper)and they upgrade you to UPS, just wanna check UPS dont hit you for automatic import duty in the UK.


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## Garuf

I had that with some teeshirts, ended up paying Â£8 for the teeshirts and Â£30 postage fines!  I dread to think what it'd be on a luminaire?!


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## BINKSY1973

Could someone please advise me on how PWM Dimming works and if there any plug and play dimming units of this kind on the market.

Cheers Gordon


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## CeeJay

Hi Gordon


			
				BINKSY1973 said:
			
		

> Could someone please advise me on how PWM Dimming works


PWM stands for Pulse Width Modulation.
On a DC circuit (which is what LED's are), PWM varies the length of time that full power is applied to the LED.
If you had a 5 volt power supply and you used a bog standard switch to turn it on, you would have 5 volts all of the time and therefore 100% output from the lamp.
PWM works by switching the power on and off very rapidly. 
Imagine you had a one second period divided into ten segments. To get 50% output from the lamp you would turn it on in the first tenth, off in the second tenth and on again in the third tenth and so on. The net effect is the lamps would only appear to glow at 50% brightness as the power is only applied 50% of the time. To get 20% brightness you would turn it on for the first tenth, off for the next four tenths, back on for one tenth and off for the next four tenths etc.
That's the basics, but PWM controllers usually work in millisecond (one thousandth of a second) or less, so you can have infinitely variable light levels. 
(I use PWM controllers at work and they switch at an astonishing 3000 times a second   ).
Why do the lamps not flicker, I hear you ask.
The human eye cannot detect any flicker at these high rates of switching. A classic example of this is your domestic light bulb. That's only switching on and off 50 times a second (50 Hertz), and to you it looks like it's on all the time, so we have no hope of detecting flicker on something that's switching on and off thousands of times a second.
That's about as basic as I could make the explanation of a complex subject, so I hope that helps.



			
				BINKSY1973 said:
			
		

> if there any plug and play dimming units of this kind on the market.


I'm not sure if there are any plug and play units available on the market just yet as I have not researched this, but I would say that if the LED lighting takes off, they will be off the shelf in the not too distant future.


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## FishBeast

Very interesting link Tonser. Had I not already finished my LED project I would look into those led strips some more.



			
				BINKSY1973 said:
			
		

> Could someone please advise me on how PWM Dimming works and if there any plug and play dimming units of this kind on the market.
> 
> Cheers Gordon



Ceejay explained it well. I studied this for a few months last year and couldnt for the life of me find any PWM products which I could adapt to my led lighting to simulate sunrise/sunset moonrise/moonset so I ended up figuring out how to do it myself. 

There is a link to my project in my sig but if you would like more detailed info on how I did it just msg me. Once the proramming is done it is a very simple circuit.


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## BINKSY1973

Thank you to both of you for your replys.

I will take a look at your journal fishbeast.

Cheers Gordon.


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## Mortis

Im working on a DIY led light bar for my 1ft cube. Ill let you guys know how it goes.


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## BINKSY1973

Have just found this on ebay http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PWM-Mosfet-Dr...ial_Automation_Control_ET?hash=item5d2804c7c2 Not sure if it is any good for our use? Also if i was using those drivers that Supercoley used how many of these dimmers would be needed? one per driver? Or could multiple drivers be dimmed using one dimmer?

Sorry for all the questions.

Cheers Gordon.


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## fourmations

hi all

are these the job?
http://cgi.ebay.ie/1-Set-3W-High-Po...al_Components_Supplies_ET?hash=item53dfe1ba4d

or these

http://cgi.ebay.ie/5x-High-power-3W...ewItemQQptZUK_Light_Bulbs?hash=item27af4904f2

are lenses needed at all?

thanks


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## BINKSY1973

Ok after more searching on the internet i think i have cracked it. I have found a PWM dimmer for 16 Euros.

http://www.dotlight.de/products/en/...mming-Module-for-LEDs-LEDBARs-Luxeon-etc.html

So for those of us that dont understand how to build the circuit from scratch this could be a good affordable alternative.

Cheers Gordon.


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## jscoggs27

Check these out, they run very hot mind you and need a lot of power but then they are tiny and each one gives about 8 watts in one direction. Full info and drivers available here.
http://www.rapidonline.com/Electron...onics/Power-LEDs/Linear-high-power-LEDs/81569

dont be fooled by the colour, they really are very intense white at 6500K, you cant look at them.
Im using some now, need to go on an aluminium plate though or they overheat.
jason


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## FishBeast

Sorry I have taken so long guys but finally I got the lux meter out and tested it on a 3w led.

1/2 foot away from led: 3000+ lux (meter doesnt go above 3000)

1 foot away: 1800+

1 & 1/2 foot: 800

2 foot: 475

I don't know what the angle of this particular led is but I would guess 80-90 degrees. For every 1/2 a foot to the side from 1 & 1/2 foot down the lux would roughly 1/2 in intensity.

Hope this helps


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## alzak

Hi

After reading most of this post i decide to try do DIY led light for my tank but i have few questions first

Is better to do this in one strip or two?

Any good shop which sell lumilux led for good price ?

How many high output leds i need for my 2ft tank and which one to choose 

Where can i get some nice looking case with heatsink to hide all the leds and all cables


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## Garuf

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/diy/1 ... twist.html

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/diy/1 ... onent.html

These should fire up interest for people, pc control your leds and at the same time use them as a moonlight.


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## GreenNeedle

Not been on the forums much for a long while but thought I would belatedly 'butt in' on a few additions to this thread 



			
				Tonser said:
			
		

> I just thought I'd resurrect his thread, as I'm thinking of converting my old luminaire to led's.  Are your setups still going strong Andy ?  Anything you would have done differently in retrospect ?
> Also, do you have a link to the seller on ebay who you used ?  The earlier links have now expired.



Yes the unit is now 15 months old and still running perfectly.  No LEDs been changed at all.  Very satisfied

I wouldn't change anything but I would add something.  A mirrored diffuser like the grids you have on office flourescents.  Why?  Because the unit is above my eyeline when I sit down to watch TV and the glare is a bit annoying.  These are damned bright beasties.  I will get off the sofa and see if I can find one eventually 

The seller I used for the LEDs and heatsinks is this  one:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/20pcs-3W-Whit...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item35a7fd7809




			
				zig said:
			
		

> Don't know where Andy is, AWOL the last month or so, maybe he will pop back in soon and share his wisdom.
> 
> Another thing you will quickly realise is that It works out more expensive than you think, an equivelant T5 setup could be cheaper. Personally though I am just going to treat it as a project so although cost is a factor its not the overiding one for me anyway.



Alas I got pretty bored with almost everything mid last year especially the forums.  Hardly use the PC these days   I'll check this thread for a few days though.

On the cost aspect yes...to DIY my unit was about Â£110.  The T5 equivalent would be about Â£50 however I am using less wattage and the LEDs should last for 7 years at least whereas T5 tubes would need changing every 3 or so years.  Over that time frame I will save substantially. Maybe even cost half as much total when the 7 years are up!!!!



			
				FishBeast said:
			
		

> I am new to the DIY LED thing but I have been looking into it based in luminems.



Aaargh Pet hate to the extreme.  Forget Lumens.  Absolutley no use to us for our needs.  They tell you how bright the light looks to us!! not how much light they are outputting.  Plants do not have eyes therefore they do not care about brightness however they do care about how much light there is.

As an example. To match a 250W MH for Lumens you would need approx 300+W of LEDs.  However when tested the original 75W solaris LED unit showed 85% as much PAR as a 250W MH!!!  Yes 30% wattage = 85% PAR.  Sound extreme?  The same tests showed that it was 110% PUR!!!!  The 75W LED unit had higher Useable light than the 250W MH.  This is why Lumens gets people off on the wrong way of thinking.



			
				alzak said:
			
		

> 1-Is better to do this in one strip or two?
> 2-Any good shop which sell lumilux led for good price ?
> 3-How many high output leds i need for my 2ft tank and which one to choose
> 4-Where can i get some nice looking case with heatsink to hide all the leds and all cables



1-Neither!!!  Forget about traditional strips like tubes.  With LEDs think more of a matrix or grid pattern.  The spread is key.  Work out how many LEDs to use and then divide the hood into a grid with the LEDs equally spaced to gain the best spread of light.

2-See link at the top for cheap lumilux (probably copies but they are what I used)

3 - I would suggest for a medium light tank then aim for about the 1W per gallon region.  For a higher light tank towards 1.5WPG.  I would suggest that a good grid will need about 2 thirds wattage of a T5 setup to out perform it.

4 - I made a wooden luminaire with the same footprint as the tank. Heatsinks are sold by the same seller in the link above and a standard 'zip cable tidy is all I use.  The type you use on computer cables.  Poundland sell them, tesco sell them etc.

I also read in one of the posts above about lenses.  When the LEDs are used for reef setups they are using 3 to 4 times the amount we would need therefore they are closer together and they focus each one down.  If we try and do that then because we are spacing ours a lot further apart then you will see 'beams' of light in the water.  Not desirable.  Your typical lambertian die LED (half sphere in shape) will be a 120Âº output meaning it will emit light down and sideways. Let it do that.  It spreads the light more equally.  No visible beams and a good even light to your plants 

AC


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## Tony Swinney

Thanks for your reply and thoughts Andy.

Unfortunately I'm at a bit of a standstill with this as I took the plunge 7 weeks ago and ordered some bits to experiment with from Ledrise.com and they keep sending emails detailing further delays to the products I've ordered.   I've demanded cancellation of the order and a full refund, but have yet to get it    

Tony


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## Garuf

About to order mine, awaiting an email just clearing up what drivers I need and then I'm on the way. I'll be using 3 strings of 7, and a lumo for my nano. 

I'm struggling with getting suitable power sources though. They seem few and far between and if I'm honest I don't really know what I'm hunting for.


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## GreenNeedle

Garuf said:
			
		

> About to order mine, awaiting an email just clearing up what drivers I need and then I'm on the way. I'll be using 3 strings of 7, and a lumo for my nano.
> 
> I'm struggling with getting suitable power sources though. They seem few and far between and if I'm honest I don't really know what I'm hunting for.



If you are running 3 strings of 7 x 3W then a 24V source is what you need for each string.  If you are going the pcb route (no idea on how they work  ) then you would need a 72V source.

Maybe someone with electrical knowledge can confirm if these are viable.  Laptop power supplies etc.:

24V:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Laptop-Power-...Computing_LaptopAccess_RL?hash=item23067ea7b1

AC


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## Garuf

Thanks, Andy. Yeah I was thinking of going for stings of 9 but I don't know if that'd be plant destroying territory, from our private messages it seems most likely. 

I still want to go down the PCI route but I'd like individually on/off on a timer and I don't think that's possible within easy electronics. Of course you could add switches but that's not on a timer. Possibly you could use 555 timers but I don't really remember how they work.


----------



## GreenNeedle

> I also read in one of the posts above about lenses. When the LEDs are used for reef setups they are using 3 to 4 times the amount we would need therefore they are closer together and they focus each one down. If we try and do that then because we are spacing ours a lot further apart then you will see 'beams' of light in the water. Not desirable. Your typical lambertian die LED (half sphere in shape) will be a 120Âº output meaning it will emit light down and sideways. Let it do that. It spreads the light more equally. No visible beams and a good even light to your plants



Remember me saying this?  Yes me   Whilst I still believe it to be true I have used lenses in the MkII version of my luminaire.  I'll add updates of this soon.  Looks the business   More like a super hi tec piece of cool decor than a practical part 



> I was thinking of going for stings of 9 but I don't know if that'd be plant destroying territory, from our private messages it seems most likely.


Garuf I don't think it would be plant destroying however it would mean that you needed a driver for 9.  The reason I stated 7 is that you can run 7 at almost max off the 24V drivers but 9 would hardly light up 

I have strings of 3 because I am using 12V adaptors to enable me to split the timings of each string of 3.  My cabinet has 1 extension, plugged into it's own wall socket, solely devoted to the lights.  It has 6 of those mini timers (the smaller mechanical ones) with 6 of the 12V adaptors.  Those who worry about overloading should understand that each string is barely pulling any current in comparison to most household units.  Think more about the extension pulling probably less than most people's sole light which of course in a lot of cases is then plugged into an extension along with their other equipment.  I then do have 1 more timer and adaptor for the fans plugged into the main extension lead which has filter and heater too.

AC


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## GreenNeedle

Just a snippet from my website r.e. the MkII version of my DIY LED setup.

Although I've called it MkII what I have done is in fact to make a new design of the unit and then transfer exactly the same electronics into it.  Prettier and darned cool IMO 

So pictures below but first an explanation of the changes:

1 - The unit is now made from 6mm MDF instead of 22mm pine.  Much much lighter but still strong enough to support my 10ltr bucket if I need to empty and refill for any reason.
2 - Access is now via a lid on the top rather than removing the glass underneath.
3 - The bottom is now solid rather than glass so you can't see the internals.
4 - I have used lense holders fixed into the bottom section to 'tidy' the appearance up.  They house 45Âº lenses.
5 - The unit has been veneered to match my other furniture.
6 - The fans reduced to 3 at each end as they fitted nicely behind some vent covers I bought rather than the 4 at each end previously.
7 - The unit is much more slimline now. 12cm to be precise 
8 - I am now using proper heatsinks for the LEDs rather than cut up pieces of reflector

Why did I use lenses when I have mentioned before that the spread is much better without?  Because it tidied up the appearance.  Being 45Âº they do spread pretty well but if 1 LED is not as bright, the spread from the others does not make up for it anymore.  I changed 2 LEDs that were a little 'yellower' than the others.

So the unit is new but the actual lighting setup has now been running for 18months with absolutely zero problems.  The 2 LEDs that were removed were still working fine.  It was just the differential in their colouration that meant I changed them:

Drawing out the plan pre-routing:





Aligning the fans on the side panels:




Making sure the lense holders fit into the routed holes:




Veneering the lip:




The finished outer with nice laquered and polished underside:




Positioning the vents on each end:




The lid in place (I routed a 2mm recess around the perimiter of the  which the lid sits in:




The electrics fitted inside:




The aliens are landing , I mean yippee it still works  :




All finished apart from 4 coats of Tung Oil.  That is why the veneer looks much lighter than the cabinet.  Once the Tung Oil is on and cured it will go the same colour as the cabinet:




AC


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## Mortis

Awesome. You did a really great job, very neat and professional !


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## LondonDragon

Looks great, nicely done indeed  congrats


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## Jack middleton

That is slick, looks fantastic!


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## GreenNeedle

One last little improvement on this project is the hanging 'equipment.

The unit was hanging by 2 chains that were linked to D ring on the luminaire and then up to some hooks in the shelf above.

This wasn't the nicest looking piece of kit but has sufficed the past 18 months. My wife had commented on it. Several forum members had commented on it and it was something I was looking to replace so I finally got round to it.

I bought one of the hanging kits that are meant for the old style Arcadia Luminaires and whilst mine is much bigger than the units this is intended for mine is probably a little lighter .

The kit consists of 2 long cables which have a close loop at one end to hang it from. There are 2 shorter cables with round 'washer' type ends to attach to the luminaire, Both of these are similar to bicycle gear/brake cables in thickness.

Next ther is a little 2 metal piece which is like a cylinder with an internal locking 'grip' mechanism. they are only about 10mm in diameter. The hanging cable goes through the centre of the cylinder and then when oyu pull it locks in place. Then the luminaire cable threads through a groove at the bottom and a screw in part then tightens to hold it in place.

It is then just a case of raising/lowering the hanging cable by using the release mechanism on the cylinder unit. I used a spirit level and locked them off when I was happy the unit was level left to right. then it was a case of levelling the unit front to back which meant sliding the luminaire cables back and forth through the groove until the whole unit was level. then the screw in part is tightened to hold it in place.

That is this unit completed. There are a couple of minor cosmetics to sort out where the old D rings were but these are just a case of plugging the old screw holes with some tiny veneer 'patches' and then applying some more Tung Oil over the are athey were to match them in.













AC


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## Lisa_Perry75

I really love the cabinet, tank (scape looks lush) and hood. I just can't help thinking the hood would look better sat on the tank. Do you have info anywhere on how you made the cabinet? What did you use to get the wood look onto the cabinet and hood (looks like something you stuck onto the base composite material)?


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## GreenNeedle

Cabinet is veneered:
http://www.greenneedle.co.uk/2Cabinet1.html

TBH the lighting is where it is because that is the best range for the lights and I also prefer the look of it hanging 

All to do with spread coverage reducing hotspots etc but that's all a bit in depth to clutter this thread with 

AC


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## Garuf

Just been reading through a load of posts over at planted box and they seem to think that a par38 LED direct retro would light anything upto a 18-24inch cube. That's about Â£70's worth of led at the going rate. They also Par tested a 3w brandless gu10 with 40degree optics and it was peaking at 230par over an extremely small area, a optic-less version should therefore produce over all around 70par, that's more than enough for most applications and a single one should be enough to light your average nano, I'll be placing an order to try the theory as soon as possible.


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## Garuf

Glassbox not planted box! Brains not with it recently!


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## GreenNeedle

Garuf. I think while the PAR results are impressive to say the least the problem I am having with people's PAR readings at the mo is that they are not to my eyes substantial enough.  What I would like to see is for each application a huge amount of tests.  Meaning that I see a lot of PAR tests where the tester give a dingle figure.  Where abouts is the reading taken from?

Just to clarify my thinking a little over the 10ltr I have 3 x no name 3W without optics.  I would say from the growth it is in the medium bracket. Sort of 2-3WPG flouroescent.  This is why I have my doubts about the X% LED = 100% of statements out there.

Yes we know that the Solaris came out at 27% power to equal the MH BUT what MH.  What reflector?  We know from Tom Barr's tests on the ADA systems that the PAR does not add up to the Wattge they use.

If there was a test versus flouro then which flouro?  We know already that for the same K rating and same wattage same T, in fact the same tube by 2 different brands that an Aquamedic tube gave 30% more PAR than an Aqualight.  these should be just different brands versions of the same tube but that is a massive difference.

This is what holds me back from saying that 37W is good enough forX and 1 x 3W is enough for Nano.  I know that 1 LED isn't enough for my 10ltr.

I am currently at the stage where I am estimating LED light = 1.333 x flouro light.  I'm not going into MH because with a single point source relying on a large reflector the differences from 1 MH to another maybe even greater than the flouro example above.

I think there are far too many peple testing PAR without actually understanding some basics about light!!!  These tests need to be like a 'time team geo phys' where the readings are taken over the whole of the footprint at 1 inch intervals and then that info can be plotted.  then the grid or pattern of LEDs/lights can be overlaid.  This should then be done several times more for the lights at different heights.

Then you would have a definitive 'in my tank' set of results detailing that with the lights X above waterline and X above substrate these are the readings, it would show what the ideal height was for the particular setup and pattern to fully equalise the PAR on the substrate.

Thats a lot of testing for people who have the meter and think that a few readings are enough   Its not just the single light source reading that is important. It is the relationship between 1 light and then other i.e. overlapping which is also a very key issue.

I wouldn't want you to think you are going to get enough light from a small amount of light.  After all my 37W is above a non CO2, non fert tank with no water changes and only slow growing plants.  We all know what result I would have if the light was as high as some are suggesting.  Algae fest to the extreme, but I don't see it.

Tests are one thing but from what I see in my tank r.e. the plant and setup and what we know about light/CO2 in a high light tank I can virtually falsify those readings already.  There may well be some huge diffeences between today's no name 3W and the ones I ought 18 months ago though.

p.s. I'm going to do those tests when I get a new camera.  Mine won't open the lense anymore. lol Must've worn it out.

AC


----------



## flygja

That is SWEET dude! Very slick and definitely complements your home furnishing. How I wish I had woodworking skills and tools now!


----------

