# advice on new tank Rhizoclonium



## pauld (14 Aug 2010)

hi all help would be much appreciated i added a reply on someone elses thread which ceg pointed me in the right direction where to look which i have done  ,i dont want to hijack the other guys thread so ive started my own .
this is my 1st attempt at a high tec planted tank ,its been running 4 weeks .
tank 330l
1300 lph filter 
korrolla 4 
pressurised co2 fe system on 1hr before lights on off 1 hour before lights out 
lights t5 4x54w on 9hrs per day 
ferts macros, micros, doseing as per size of tank from ferts i checked and double checked i mixed the right qauntitys first time useing them i was well nervous .
water change 50% per wk on a sunday

ok i 1st noticed a few spots of green spot algae on the glass which ive been scrapeing off as and when ive seen it , 1st mistake after i just read james c algaes giude i now know to let it run its course for a few wks then scrape off and do a big water change .
last week i noticed which i now think is Rhizoclonium not a lot but ive been fishing it out with a tooth brush .
ive looked at the causes and i cant see where im going wrong ive got good flow co2 checker remains green wherever i place it in tank ive moved it on a daily basis to check ive got no spots that dont get enough co2 . or poor maintance the tanks only been running 4wks .
ive probably missed something really basic as im new to hi tec so any advice would be much appreciated .


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## ceg4048 (14 Aug 2010)

Hi,
    Thank you kindly for your consideration. It's greatly  appreciated.

Step number 1 in any algae investigation is to immediately reduce the lighting by at least 50%.

You should also tell us exactly how you prepared your mix and how much of what is being dosed. I'm never satisfied until I know what is being put into the tank. Not that I distrust your calculations but we really need to eliminate dosing error as a possibility to avoid chasing our tail.

Also you do realize that the optimal flow rating is 3300 LPH for this tank. Even if you have this it may be that your distribution is flawed, so it would be nice to know or see how you distribute. Is it possible to get a photo?

Cheers,


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## pauld (14 Aug 2010)

thanks for your qiuck reply ceg
my fert mix is ----- pottasium nitrate 6 tsp
                            pottasium phosphate 3 tsp
                            pottasium sulphate 1 1/2 tsp
                            magnesium sulphate 18 tsp 
this makes 10 doses i mix it with 10 shot glasses of distilled water and dose three times a week 
i dose aqua essentials trace mix three times a week and dont dose nothing on a sunday 
this is the algae 





sorry about qaulity of pics phone cam
in the next pic it shows the spray bar im useing a boyu upatomiser on the outlet of the filter the holes in the spray bar are pointed down but slightly towards the front of the tank as the bubbles start to rise the korrolla pushes them back down and towards other end of tank i think you can see by the stems the flow .




hope this helps to find out where im going wrong thanks in advance .


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## CeeJay (15 Aug 2010)

Hi pauld

Looking at your second pic, I would say that the flow from your spray bar is being negated by having the koralia flowing from right to left, thus cancelling out some of the net effect of the spray bar.
I have found proper circulation to be a right pain in the butt and this is exacerbated in larger tanks like yours. 
It took me an age to get mine right in a piddly little 180l (compared to yours), but you'll certainly know when you've got it right.
If my observations are correct the plant you have posted that is suffering is in the centre of the tank, at the bottom (where else   ), which happens to be just about the worst position in the tank for flow, with your current arrangement.
As you trundle along your planted tank journey you will find ferts easy to adjust, lighting easy to adjust, CO2 easy to adjust, but to distribute that CO2 evenly around the tank will always be your biggest headache, especially when your plant mass increases.
I would start by moving the koralia around and try to get the flow from the spray bar and the flow from the koralia to assist and not oppose each other. That is extremely difficult in the larger tanks.
Lowering your lighting levels always helps when you're battling any type of algae too. You can return to your current levels when you have it beat.
Good luck with it.


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## ceg4048 (15 Aug 2010)

Yes I agree with Chris. I' probably start by moving the pump to the left hand side where there is a vacancy from the spraybar and point it straight towards the front.

I would also increase the KNO3 and KH2PO4 by another 20%. You can eliminate the KH2SO4 as it's redundant, and you can probably use less Epsom Salts as well if you're using tap water. So you can simplify the dosing quite a bit by eliminating one powder, using less of another and increasing the ones that count the most.

Cheers,


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## pauld (15 Aug 2010)

thanks guys will implement the changes this morning when i reduce the lighting time do i reduce the amount of time the co2 is on as well to come on 1hr before lights on and off 1hr before lights out going to reduce from 9hrs to 6hrs .


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## CeeJay (15 Aug 2010)

Hi pauld

I would definitely adjust your on and off times of your CO2 to suit your new lighting times. However, one of the many things I have learnt from Clive (aka ceg4048), is that the critical time for having your CO2 up to the correct levels is at lights on. For this reason I have my CO2 come on 2 hours before lights on, and go off 2 hours before lights off. That may be another tweak that will assist you. 
Good luck.


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## pauld (15 Aug 2010)

thanks chris & clive altering my lights and co2 timers now been watching the tank since ive moved the korrolla loads of movement at the end just past spray bar, end nearest filter inlet seems pretty still ive got a korrolla 2 sitting in a cupboard would it be worthe adding this at this stage or would this be over kill ?


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## CeeJay (15 Aug 2010)

Hi pauld

Personally, if I had a koralia sitting in the cupboard, I would definitely use it. But that's because I am now obsessed with distribution more than any thing else (and we only have Clive to blame for that   ).
You'll find every thing else is easy by comparison  .
Good luck.


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## pauld (15 Aug 2010)

added other korrola let me know if you think its in the right place for flow do i keep pulling algae out on tooth brush ? as you can see spot algae is on glass which im going to leave as james c pinned post, and deal with that as he advises . looking at tank i would say its 5x worse today what sort of time scale am i looking at before i see a improvement ?
http://img576.imageshack.us/img576/6820 ... low002.jpg


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## ceg4048 (15 Aug 2010)

Hi,
    Yes that looks like a good place to start, but your spraybar looks as if the holes are pointing down. They should be pointing straight ahead at the front glass. Check the following threads for a better idea.

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=3827
viewtopic.php?f=38&t=1167

Cheers,


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## pauld (20 Aug 2010)

just a qiuck thankyou guys you certainly know your stuff i would say im nearly 90% clear of algae now.


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## CeeJay (21 Aug 2010)

Hi pauld


			
				pauld said:
			
		

> just a qiuck thankyou guys you certainly know your stuff


Well Clive does anyway. I'm just glad he's prepared to share it   or I would be well stuffed if I heeded advice from some of my local fish stores  .    
His advice has been exactly the opposite of what some had told me in the past   .  


			
				pauld said:
			
		

> i would say im nearly 90% clear of algae now.


That's great news. 
Keep at it and it will all go away


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## stujo (25 Aug 2010)

I've been reading this thread with interest as I have had very similar experience to Pauld i.e. with Rhizoclonium.   Is Rhizoclonium a common feature of a new setup?   I have a well planted tank that has been up and running for about 6 weeks.  Spent months reading "guru" Clive's articles/comments etc.  before I started (but this is my first "real" planted tank) I have 10 times flow (rated), use EI with dry salts as per Clives "recipe", pressurised Co2 etc and have tried to follow all the "rules".  Everything is growing really well, no other algae apart from some rhizoclonium, which like Pauld I have been clearing daily with a toothbrush.  In my case it was mainly on the hairgrass but I also get a small amount near top of rotala etc which is in good flow area.  I found it almost impossible to clean up the hairgrass and decided to remove this and replace with cryp. parva.   I did this mainly because all my other small cryps are growing well, not at all affected by rhizoclonium, except those that were touching the hairgrass.  

I don't want to intrude on this thread, but am interested as my experiences seem to mirror pauld problems.   Clive I am interested in your comments re increasing dosage of KNO3 and KH2PO4 and reducing MgSO4.  I have used the formula in your EI Dosing Using Dry Salts - is this not now correct or simply that overdosing cannot do any harm and could do good?  Am a bit unclear re your suggestion of reducing MgSO4, if using tap water, why is this?

I have now adjusted my Co2 to come on 2hrs before lights on and to go off 2 hrs before lights off, rather than 1 hr as per comments above.


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## ceg4048 (25 Aug 2010)

Hi stujo,
           One of the assumptions that I had to make in the tutorial and really, this applies to any and all EI recipes is that the tank is configured for excellent flow and unlimited CO2. As it turns out in real life, unless the hobbyist is a psychotic (like me) flow/distribution and CO2 are rarely ever on target. One has to experiment and discover the limitations and idiosyncrasies of that particular tank. As a result, one is always at risk of incurring deficiencies symptoms. If you follow the basic guidelines though, then you will definitely avoid the catastrophic blooms typical of poorly configured and poorly dosed tanks. This is addressed somewhat in the article, sort of as a disclaimer. I'll quote from that section of the article:


> Wonâ€™t all these nutrients cause algae?
> Itâ€™s important to be aware that there are a variety of factors that can bring the onset of algal blooms which are not related to the dosing scheme. The following are typical causal factors:
> 1. Poor CO2 injection methods
> 2. Poor flow distribution within the tank.
> ...


So it's not that the baseline numbers are incorrect, but that they are effectively neutralized to some extent if these listed items are not properly addressed. If your flow is poor then this fails to deliver those nutrient concentration values to the plant bed. One then has to increase the dosing levels to compensate for the loss of uptake due to flow inefficiencies.

This is exactly the reason I try to dissuade people from being so manic about adhering to strict ppm values or in trying to be so precise with measuring the dosages, because you can do all that and still have problems.

EI is NOT a formula. It's a World View. It is also interactive. It's objective is to avoid starvation, so if you see the onset of starvation, despite the dosing levels, then it tells you to make the appropriate adjustment. Because one of the major tenets of the dosing scheme is that "nutrients don't cause algae" then you are free to increase the dosing levels to compensate for uptake inefficiencies. Conversely, if your tank is highly efficient then you are allowed to adjust the dosing downwards to reduce maintenance and to reduce cost.

The MgSO4 baseline numbers are very high, simply because this salt is mostly sulfate by a wide margin, so one has to add lots of the salt just to get a little Mg.  In calculating the baseline numbers the assumption was worse case. i.e, that the hobbyist was using RO water and was NOT re-mineralizing. But if one is using tap, and if the tap is high in Mg, then adding all this Epsom salt is really quite wasteful. If you check your water report, you might find that most (not all) peoples tap water is relatively high in Mg. Magnesium is one of the components of hard water (GH). The other component is Calcium. EI doesn't address Calcium, but generally we advise when using soft water, to raise the GH to around 4 degrees. Some folks even combine the NPK numbers with commercial trace mixes which are high in Mg, such as TPN for example. If that's the case then again, there is no need to add so much MgSO4. 

There are so many combinations and permutations that it's difficult to have one size fits all, but this is the closest thing. That's why it's so important to be interactive. 

Now, the areas that you have Rhizo are telling you that in those areas it's very possible that you have poor flow relative to the other areas in the tank. It may also mean that those particular specimens in those area are weaker than the other plants and are less efficient feeders. It could even be a combination of both. Therefore, you have to solve the riddle of your tank, but you have the means to do it because you know beyond a shadow of a doubt what the subset of causal factors are.

I reckon you can continue to tweak the values of injection rate, dosages, flow patterns and so forth, until you sort it out.

Hope this clarifies.  

Cheers,


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## stujo (26 Aug 2010)

Thanks Clive for taking the time to write a lengthy reply and again I have learnt a lot.   I have never previously used CO2 and I have to say that so far I am quite amazed at what is happening in the tank regarding plant growth, because even though I read a lot beforehand I did take some of it with a pinch of salt (excuse the pun).  So I guess so far I am not doing too much wrong and a lot of the credit for this has to go down to you, because I have tried to follow your advice.   However, early days yet I guess, I'm sure I'll get problems further down the line, but so far so good.   Thanks again Clive - Stuart


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## pauld (26 Aug 2010)

qiuck update im now Rhizoclonium free (well none visable) thanks again guys .


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## CeeJay (26 Aug 2010)

Hi pauld.

Great result   
If you now keep on top of your maintenance your tank should start to flourish.
If you do do see any dramas in your tank from now on, I would always, always check CO2 distribution first. I know I sound like a stuck record, but if you stay on top of that you will now be able to enjoy your tank instead of stressing about algae all the time. Just remember, healthy plants with enough grub (CO2 & ferts), = no algae  8) 
After all, it is supposed to be an enjoyable hobby..................and it is when you get it right.
Still fascinates me anyway


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