# 180L Jewel Rio - First time with plants



## Sirkavu (20 Apr 2018)

Hi Everyone!!
Exciting times    After two weeks reading and trying to learn (hehehe) about plants CO2.... Anyways I am finally starting my new tank 

I would like to do low-Tech for 2/3 weeks and then get CO2 - reason why is because there is not budget (need to replace my car windscreen  )

Soooo....I would like to have AS Amazonia and some rocks and driftwood. In terms of plants, just something easy and low light and CO2 like anubias etc.

To start in a good way, as I have to replace my 37L filter, I will cut half of it and put it it this new tank so I can start with some bacteria.

Is this a good start? If I need CO2 I will get liquid one.

I will start putting pictures this weekends once I put my hands to work and after your advices hehe


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## alto (20 Apr 2018)

What lights do you have?
Any plants you particularly like?
Livestock?


Juwel Rio 180 official video 

Unless you already have the ADA Amazonia, I'd suggest Tropica as it tends to be more consistent quality & much more resistant to "mudding"


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## Sirkavu (20 Apr 2018)

alto said:


> What lights do you have?
> Any plants you particularly like?
> Livestock?"


Light is the ones that came with the tank:
*MultiLux* *LED* 2x23watt
*Power* 1x23 W DAY & 1x23 W NATURE
*Kelvin* 9000/6500
*Lumen* 5290
Plants I was thinking about low CO2 and light fro Tropica website, something like:
Anubias
Cryptocoryn
Cladophora (maybe)
Bacopa (Maybe)
Echinodorus
Vallisneria

Still not very sure but will see tomorrow. Wont have mny different as I would like some nice dragon stones in there and some anubias around.



alto said:


> Unless you already have the ADA Amazonia, I'd suggest Tropica as it tends to be more consistent quality & much more resistant to "mudding"



Don't have it yet no, was about to go buy it tomorrow  Maybe will do that. Should I mix it with anything else?


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## alto (20 Apr 2018)

Tank area 100cm x 40cm x 10cm substrate height ~ 40 litres substrate 

But you want a slope rather than 10cm even height front to back, so may be OK with 3 bags Soil depending how much rock & wood etc, also if you want a sand/fine gravel foreground ...

ADA system uses the Power Sand to add bulk (& other properties) you can do this with any small piece porous rock (look for similar size to Power Sand, be careful of some of the horticultural products as some are determined floaters) or larger sized gravel (place this in mesh bags - or stockings)
The gravel won't have quite the same flow characteristics as Power Sand or irregular packed "lava" stone 

You can also just use Aquarium Soil, often the larger particle soil is used for banking with the Powder Soil used as a top layer - of course if you rescape or adjust plants etc, this will tend to mix

I prefer uniform look so just use Powder but I also don't create banks deeper than ~15cm 

The Green Machine has a warehouse clearance on (closing so certain tradeoff for the discount prices) so you may want to look at their online shop

Your plant list sounds fine, tank is 50cm tall so I suspect the PAR at substrate is medium at most (possibly low-med in some areas of the tank, depending on types of LEDs used & lens & reflector system)

I suggest you also add in something from Tropica's Supporting or Auxilary Plant list - these are fast growing stem plants that help with initial tank balance

I'd use liquid carbon as daily dose until you decide on CO2 
- commiserations on the windscreen 

Follow Tropica's 90Day App


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## alto (20 Apr 2018)

Note dragon stone is notoriously "dirty" so pressure wash first if possible


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## Sirkavu (21 Apr 2018)

alto said:


> ADA system uses the Power Sand to add bulk (& other properties) you can do this with any small piece porous rock (look for similar size to Power Sand, be careful of some of the horticultural products as some are determined floaters) or larger sized gravel (place this in mesh bags - or stockings)
> The gravel won't have quite the same flow characteristics as Power Sand or irregular packed "lava" stone
> 
> You can also just use Aquarium Soil, often the larger particle soil is used for banking with the Powder Soil used as a top layer - of course if you rescape or adjust plants etc, this will tend to mix



What about Aquatic compost (around 5cm?) + Tropica Powder soil (around 3cm?)? Or I can add ADA power Sand with the compost? 



alto said:


> I suggest you also add in something from Tropica's Supporting or Auxilary Plant list - these are fast growing stem plants that help with initial tank balance
> 
> I'd use liquid carbon as daily dose until you decide on CO2
> - commiserations on the windscreen
> ...


WOW an app?? Already downloading heheh Which Liquid Carbon would you suggest?
And yeah...the windscreen....just ruined the morning haha almost cried.


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## alto (21 Apr 2018)

Link for Aquatic Compost???

Most "compost" would be comparable to Tropica Growth Substrate ie use 1-2cm deep, then layer with at least 4-5 cm fine gravel - look at Tropica Inspiration Layout videos for examples

Liquid Carbon - Seachem as I'm in Canada, there are others in the U.K. likely cheaper if not shipped overseas


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## Sirkavu (21 Apr 2018)

alto said:


> Link for Aquatic Compost???
> 
> Most "compost" would be comparable to Tropica Growth Substrate ie use 1-2cm deep, then layer with at least 4-5 cm fine gravel - look at Tropica Inspiration Layout videos for examples
> 
> Liquid Carbon - Seachem as I'm in Canada, there are others in the U.K. likely cheaper if not shipped overseas


This is the compost - https://www.marshalls-seeds.co.uk/w...VqhXTCh2Hew0SEAQYASABEgJWIPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

And yeah will get Seachem


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## alto (21 Apr 2018)

If planning shrimp (especially the expensive sort) approach with caution 

Pond products are not formulated with aquaria in mind 

Do search on here for 
Aquatic Compost 

I believe dw1305 has some commentary, or perhaps one of the moderator Tim's


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## Sirkavu (21 Apr 2018)

Ok soooooo, I just got home and spent the last 5h setting up my tank 

So here is a description of my 180L Juwel Rio




*Substract*
Tropica Aquarium Soil  from 3cm to 5/6cm backawrds

*Plants*
x1 Anubias
x2 Crypts
x1 Ludwigia
x2 Vallisneria
x1 Bacopa



I have added Aquasafe for the 180L, which is 5ml per 10L. As I do not have CO2 system, I bought Seachem and added one capful which is enough for 250L. I also bought both tropica premium fertilisers but didn't add yet - should I?

Please see picture of how the tank looks at the moment 


 
So, on the left side I would like to add some stones to fill the space between the plants and maybe add some staurogyne.

Also ill make a path to the "cave" rocks and on each sides will put 2-4 cladophoras. Maybe some more Echinodorus on the right side to give more volume and on the right middle I want put some Echinodorus Rose to add some more colour.

Unfortunately, my girlfriend took the some plants out of the pot they came with and some leafs got a bit dry - hopefully this wont be a problem.

It is not finished yet and I think now I have a better idea of what other plants I want to add to make it nicer 

Please let me know if there is something I should have done different, or if I should do something else. I have downloaded the Tropica app and it says to add shrimps on the third day after a 50% water change - should I?

Thank you all


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## Sirkavu (22 Apr 2018)

Second day

I have been trying to write since afternoon but couldnt due to a big leak in my kitchen. Ok.. so second day and the bubbles in my tank disappeared - few around the filter only.

The water in the morning was not hot and for sure not 26 or above. I checked the heater and this was not hot. After turning it off from the plug for a few minutes, I put it on and after a few hours it got hot, do you think I might have a problem here? On the thermometer I put it at 32 but the water is not 32, not even close. It's 200W Heater.

I have added Seachem and tank had only 6h of light today and around 4 yesterday.
Most of my plants are "dirty" due to the soil - as tomorrow I am preforming 50% water change, can I clean them with a soft brush?
*Ludwigia* - most of the leaves were down - just the leaves. It is a bit better now but, is it normal?
*Anubias* - one of the leaves has very small bubbles coming out, like it is expelling oxygen haha
*Vallisneria* - Some parts are getting transparent like, this a problem?
 b (not crypt) - one of the pots has some dry leaves, because my girlfriend took it from the pot and left out for about 2h. They are getting yellow/bright brown, what should I do?

I think next weekend I will get some flowers for the right empty side, still not sure of which ones. If you have any suggestions, please let me know 

Hey @Tim Harrison , sorry to bug you  can I ask what do you think?


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## Sirkavu (30 Apr 2018)

Ok so, after a few days thinking and heavy work at my Restaurant/bar, I went and go some more plants.

My first plants are suffering a lot because I was very dumb and got Seachem Flourish instead of Excell, which means I was not dosing LC - yeah very dumb. Yesterday I got my LC, did 50% water change and add some more plants and then put the right amount of Aquasafe and LC. (Was up until 3am as Monte Carlo is not easy to plant 

It has been 9 days now and I hope my first plants survive and get as healthy as they can be 

My plan now is to keep Lights on only 4h, at least 2/3 days (let me know if this is ok or now, considering my plants), then up to 6h. I am also considering putting Shrimps next weekend, if you guys advice so of corse, if not then I will change the plans hehehe

Please see picture of my tank.


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## ian_m (30 Apr 2018)

Sirkavu said:


> I am also considering putting Shrimps next weekend, if you guys advice so of corse,


It can take up to 8-12 weeks (or more) for a tank/filter to cycle so water is safe for animals, due to presence of toxic ammonia and nitrite. Can be speeded up with either some dirty water/filter material from a mature tank (as you have done) or lots of plants. You may get away by either frequent (daily ?) massive water changes and/or daily dosing ammonia removers like Prime or AmQuel+, to shorten the time

Spend that that time buying plants, rearranging plants etc.

Liquid carbon is not the same as carbon from gaseous CO2, it is many many times less concentrated, in the amounts added to the tank. Also liquid carbon can cause many types of plant to melt & die. Can't help you with plants that don't like liquid CO2, you will just have to try it and see. If you see plants turning brown and melting away, then that plant doesn't like liquid carbon. Sometimes, when dosing liquid carbon the mature leaves melt away to slush, but the new shoots appear resistant and eventually the plant regrows and recovers.

You will find dosing liquid carbon for a large tank quite expensive, gas CO2 works out about 1/5 (or more) the cost in the long run.

As the lights supplied by Juwel are very bright and you are adding liquid carbon, this makes this a "high tech" tank, with associated maintenance routine, dosing of fertilisers and water flow rate requirements.

So you should either bite the "high tech bullet"

You will be able to grow so called "difficult" plants eg most carpeting plants.
Add daily CO2 source (liquid or gas).
Add another filter (external ?) to get flow rate at least 1800litre/hour (x10 volume rule). 99.99% if high tech tank issues are CO2 level issues and distribution. It is hard to do. I have 5300litre/hour flow rate in the 180litre tank and still have CO2 distribution and flow issues.
You will be allowed (once sorted) to run lights at 100% for many hours...
High doses of fertiliser are now required to keep up with the plants prestigious growth rates. Pre-mix ferts can work out extortionately expensive (they are mostly water), investigate making your own from dry salts.
Weekly 50% water changes will be required to remove all the plant organic waste and left over fertiliser.
Weekly plant trimming and control will be needed.
Algae is only a day or two away from taking over if you make a mistake, miss water change etc.
or go low tech (or something between high tech and low tech).

Plants will grow slowly, may limit your choice of plants.
Liquid CO2 in small amounts will be fine, or just rely on rotting fish food and fish poo.
Don't need another filter.
Lights must be kept low, maybe 50% or lower.
Fertiliser dosing, maybe once a week will be fine. Pre-mixed will be Ok.
Water changes, when ever you find convenient, monthly ? Weekly 10-20% ?
Plants grow slowly, will need trimming/controlling less often.
Algae will appear slowly, allowing time (days/weeks) for you to fix the cause and remove it.


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## Sirkavu (1 May 2018)

ian_m said:


> It can take up to 8-12 weeks (or more) for a tank/filter to cycle so water is safe for animals, due to presence of toxic ammonia and nitrite. Can be speeded up with either some dirty water/filter material from a mature tank (as you have done) or lots of plants. You may get away by either frequent (daily ?) massive water changes and/or daily dosing ammonia removers like Prime or AmQuel+, to shorten the time
> 
> Spend that that time buying plants, rearranging plants etc.


Yeah I’ll do. Can I add the water I take from my cycles 34l tank, whenever I WC it? To help speed up the cycling.
Also, how can I be sure the tank is cycled? I read somewhere I shouldn’t trust test kits much


ian_m said:


> You will find dosing liquid carbon for a large tank quite expensive, gas CO2 works out about 1/5 (or more) the cost in the long run.


Very true! I can’t have low tech with gas CO2 right? Hehe


ian_m said:


> As the lights supplied by Juwel are very bright and you are adding liquid carbon, this makes this a "high tech" tank, with associated maintenance routine, dosing of fertilisers and water flow rate requirements.


Is there anything that can help me get the brightness down? If not I think I’ll speak with a friend that is electrician and make it dimmeble


ian_m said:


> So you should either bite the "high tech bullet"
> ...
> or go low tech (or something between high tech and low tech).


I would like to go low-tech, mostly because this and next month I won’t be able to afford buying the CO2 . I’ve been asking myself, should I put fertilisers now, or not yet?

Also...do I had an idea and would like to add some wood or stone and add plants on it...what plants would you suggest 
Thanks a lot


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## ian_m (1 May 2018)

Sirkavu said:


> Is there anything that can help me get the brightness down? If not I think I’ll speak with a friend that is electrician and make it dimmable


Use the LED controller.
https://www.juwel-aquarium.de/en/Products/Lighting/LED/HeliaLux-LED/HeliaLux-Day-Night-Control/

Mind you not as bright as T5 tube of same length. 895mm MultiLux -> 2645 lumen and 895mm T5 tube 2800lumen. At least Juwel replacement LED's are near the T5 equivalents in Lumen output.

You could always wrap foil rings around the light to redcuce the brightness. That is quite a common T5 tube method or reducing brightness. You will be looking at reducing the light output by 1/3-1/2. My mate has a tank with a single T5 tube, with foil rings blocking 1/3 the tube and tank has no algae, fertiliser once a week if he remembers, water changes maybe 20-50% once a month or when he remembers, all nice of low light, low maintenance, he is happy. 



Sirkavu said:


> Also, how can I be sure the tank is cycled? I read somewhere I shouldn’t trust test kits much


Correct hobby grade test kits are notorious for giving false results, leading you down the path to major tank issues.

Read this on test kits.
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/what-about-test-kits.52487/

Best way is just wait 8 weeks or more, should be done by then. Using dirty water and dirty filter media will help. When I got my new JBL e1501 filter I just put some dirty Juwel filter sponges in it, within a week or two everything in the e1501 was covered in gorgeous bacterial gunk.

You could possibly use an ammonia test kit (or nitrite) as long as you ensure no dechlorinator is present, say 48 hours ?, as this is known to interfere with these test kits. Once ammonia and nitrite is 0 to low, you are good to go.

If worried, just daily dose, small amounts, of Prime or AmQuel+ as these will remove ammonia.

Patience will pay off in the end.


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## kadoxu (2 May 2018)

Like @ian_m mentioned, using the gunk or a bit of media from another filter is the best way to jump start the cycle. 

I do use test kits when cycling a tank. I usually test every other day and take note of the values I get to see the cycle happening, not to get specific numbers. In my opinion, you should also add a little bit of fish food, or a little bit of pure ammonia to give the bacteria something to eat while you don't have fish to produce waste.


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## Sirkavu (4 May 2018)

ian_m said:


> Mind you not as bright as T5 tube of same length. 895mm MultiLux -> 2645 lumen and 895mm T5 tube 2800lumen. At least Juwel replacement LED's are near the T5 equivalents in Lumen output.
> 
> You could always wrap foil rings around the light to redcuce the brightness.



Ok so my tank has two LED x23w (1 nature LED and another day LED), which brings to a 5290 lumen - 2490 more than a 895mm T5 tube. If I cover 1/3 of my tube with foil, would that be enough? The HeliaLux is just toooooo expensive at the moment unfortunately :/




ian_m said:


> Best way is just wait 8 weeks or more, should be done by then. Using dirty water and dirty filter media will help. When I got my new JBL e1501 filter I just put some dirty Juwel filter sponges in it, within a week or two everything in the e1501 was covered in gorgeous bacterial gunk.


I have put half of my dirty filter from another tank and whenever I do WC I bring that dirty water to this Juwel tank. Now I will play the game of waiting.



ian_m said:


> You could possibly use an ammonia test kit (or nitrite) as long as you ensure no dechlorinator is present, say 48 hours ?, as this is known to interfere with these test kits. Once ammonia and nitrite is 0 to low, you are good to go.


Ammonia is 0, nitrite and nitrate are 40 and 1 haha

@kadoxu Been adding fish food as well now  thanks


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## Sirkavu (5 May 2018)

@ian_m Ok sooooo... I have a few questions. I read about EI dose yet, things I am not my area of expertise - it takes loooong time to understand hehehe

My tank is 180l, as you know. So am I right to say I should add the following nutrients?
Nitrate (NO3) - 46ppm
Potassium (K) - 69ppm
Phospate (PO4) - 6.9ppm
Magnesium (Mg) - 23ppm
Iron (Fe) - 1.5ppm

It was a bit difficult to understand a few thinks 
How to I know what is the uptake rate of my tank? How should I measure it?
Should I go for dry salts? At the moment I have at home Seachem Flourish and Tropica Premium Nutrition & Plant growth - don't use them all thought, I only use Seachem Flourish.

What do you suggest? Really want to make sure I give the right nutrients to my plants with the best method, having in mind I will try and keep Low Tech


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## ian_m (5 May 2018)

Get the EI starter kit from aquariumplantfood.co.uk, mix up dry salts in bottles and dose as per the instructions. 40ml alternate days for your tank if high tech.This is dosing in excess so plants will have all the nutrients they require, thus plant issues cant be related to lack of nutrient issues and no need to test as you know nutrients are sufficient for your plants.

As you are low tech, not bright lights and no carbon source you could dose 1/4 or less doses, maybe even weekly. My mate doses 1/4 or less EI solution weekly in his low tech tank.

Any unused nutrients will of course be removed/reduced at next water change.


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## CryptKeeper (7 May 2018)

ian_m said:


> Use the LED controller.
> https://www.juwel-aquarium.de/en/Products/Lighting/LED/HeliaLux-LED/HeliaLux-Day-Night-Control/



Unfortunately, the Multilux tubes (that come standard with Juwel tank kits these days) are not dimmable without modification by someone with the required electronics chops. The Day+Night controller only works with the Helialux LED bar, which isn't cheap.


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## Sirkavu (7 May 2018)

CryptKeeper said:


> Unfortunately, the Multilux tubes (that come standard with Juwel tank kits these days) are not dimmable without modification by someone with the required electronics chops. The Day+Night controller only works with the Helialux LED bar, which isn't cheap.


Yeah they are super expensive for me at the moment bah But I have a friend who is an electrician and he doesn't the electrics in one of the bars I work so I will ask him if he can do something tricks and make it dimmable and maybe he can build a controller - he did for the bar lights.


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## Sirkavu (7 May 2018)

So, yesterday I did my 30% WC. Added the Liquid CO2, Seachem Flourish, Fluver water conditioner, Fluvel bacteria and another piece from the old tank filter. Trimmed some plants as well.

- I have ordered the EI kit but should only arrive tomorrow.

Today, once I arrived home I saw some brown hairy stuff on one of my rocks, which I believe it might be algae. Should I just remove with my hands? What do you think might have the problem?


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## ian_m (8 May 2018)

Sirkavu said:


> Today, once I arrived home I saw some brown hairy stuff on one of my rocks, which I believe it might be algae. Should I just remove with my hands? What do you think might have the problem?


Some form of algae, due to too much light for your CO2 levels and fertiliser levels. Reduce lighting intensity.

Remove by brushing or spot dosing with light carbon from a dropper/syringe and reduce light levels until tank has settled in.

Might be diatoms (a brown dust), symptomatic of a new tank again with too much light. Can be brushed/washed off it diatoms. Will naturally die away.


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## Sirkavu (9 May 2018)

So yesterday I got home from work and had more of the hairy brown stuff. Brushes away my stones and with my hand I took the ones on my plants.

After the “cleaning” there was a lot of kinda dust on the tank but it settled after few minutes.

Add my LC and my lights are both covered with ring foil - 2/4. My friend will come on the weekend to make them dimmable  hehe

Now...I tested my yesterday and today and my ammonia and nitrite were 0 and nitrate 20/30 - API 5-in-1 test.

Is this good for me to start putting shrimps in? This way they can start dealing with some future algae.

Today I’ll do 30% WC and add LC with Seachem flourish.

Think EI kit should arrive today or tomorrow.


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## Sirkavu (10 May 2018)

So I got 6 amando shrimps yesterday. Put the bag in the water and left it on the surface while I was changing the water.

Once I refilled the tank put the water conditioner and waited 15m until the water is safe and started putting a bit of water in the bag every 15m x3 and released the shrimps.

Was amazing to see them running around and eating my ugly algae hehehe

This morning, when I woke up the algae was go e - for my surprise - and my rocks and plants were more alive BUT some of my leafs are “gone”
















Is it normal for the shrimps to eat the leafs? Won’t they destroy some plants? - just worried hehe


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## Konsa (10 May 2018)

Hi 
Amanos are a different kind of beast compared to other shrimps especially when fully grown.They need regular feeding or they build a habit eating plants if starved enough.I had a go in one 22l tank with some diatoms in it after about a week the one shrimp that was in it ate my Lobelia mini to the bone (only stalks left )overnight while not touching anything else.
On other hand is possible that the  leaves were unhealthy and they just cleaned them for U.
Regards Konsa


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## Sirkavu (10 May 2018)

Konsa said:


> Hi
> Amanos are a different kind of beast compared to other shrimps especially when fully grown.They need regular feeding or they build a habit eating plants if starved enough.


Oooooh....didn’t think they were that beast haha


Konsa said:


> On other hand is possible that the  leaves were unhealthy and they just cleaned them for U


Well they did ate some unhealthy leaves hehe....so should I buy any food for them, just in case? I really don’t want to lose plants :/


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## Konsa (10 May 2018)

Hi 
They not really that bad.lol
No need to fear for plant losses.
They are great addition to any aquarium and their destructive side is sth that appears very rarely and is more related to a specific individuals.Having said that very often they along with Ottos and other shrimps are mistreated and not provided with what they need especially if added to a new setup with low biofilm build up.As they are living creatures its not right.Yes get some food in and feed the buggers once or twice a week.
Regards Konsa


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## Sirkavu (11 May 2018)

Ok so I just got my EI kit but, I’m still confused on the measurements.
 This is what I read in the forum 
“NPK (Nitrogen + Phosphorus + Potassium) Mixture for 20 Gallon Tank
1 month = 4 Weeks
3 doses of NPK per week
Therefore there are 12 doses of NPK per month
Multiply a single dose teaspoon value by 12 => [3/16 tsp KNO3]*12 = 2 ¼ tsp KNO3
[1/16 tsp KH2PO4]*12 = ¾ tsp KH2PO4
[1/2 tsp MgSO4]*12 = 6 tsp MgSO4
Add these to 600ml of tap or distilled water”

As my tank is a 47.551 US Gallon, should I multiply all those doses in the bottle?


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## alto (11 May 2018)

Sirkavu said:


> Well they did ate some unhealthy leaves hehe....so should I buy any food for them, just in case? I really don’t want to lose plants :/



That's what (all) shrimp (& many snails) excel at - tidying the plants & removing the damaged leaves that will melt & contribute unwanted organic melange to our tanks 

As long as there's visible plant debris, I'd not feed the shrimps additionally, or perhaps 1-2 times a week - Amano shrimp love frozen bloodworms  
Mature Amano shrimp can be quite determined fish food consumers & completely shirk their plant tending duties

It's not unusual for shrimp to arrive rather hungry, they often slow down after a couple weeks
They can decimate certain "tender" plants but 6 Amano are unlikely to devastate your tank without advance notice


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## Hades (11 May 2018)

Sirkavu said:


> Very true! I can’t have low tech with gas CO2 right? Hehe



I don't see why not... It's actually slightly easier than "high tech all the way" imho.
You'll have lots of the benefits of CO2 but less of the risks that come with high speed growing conditions.
Plants will always appreciate/benefit from having access to CO2, even when lights (and/or ferts) are rather low....

Things will still go (grow) slower when lightlevels are low (and real high demanding plants will struggle so plantselection is important).
But the overall quality of the plants/plantgrowth will be good (or possibly better?) with CO2 available.
I have a few low tech tanks and i add gass in some of those.
In the (low light) tanks with CO2 (it looks like) i get better, stronger growth (and more intense green colors) in slow plants like Anubias, java fern and Bucephalandra.
Mosses (like fissidens fontanus, willow moss) really seem to benefit quite a lot from the gas. I see faster, more dense growth and brighter green colors, even in very low light conditions they seem to thrive better (and look more robust) in the "gas-tanks".

An other advantage is that you will get away with lower CO2 levels (in low tech tanks) so it's a bit easier to reach the concentration you aim for and to keep it steady. With a 2KH water mixture (instead of 4KH) in the drop checker you steer to lower levels (20ppm instead of 30ppm).
Slower growth, less maintenance/pruning and algaecontrol feels to be easier because when things go wrong they don't go completely south overnight. 
When (or better 'if') algea (somehow would) appear in such a tank it will happen slower so you'll have more time to react/make adjustments before it gets way out of hand...

All this feeds my believe that adding gas is possible (and can be advantageous) for both low and hightech setups.
Except the higher costs i don't see real disadvantages (for the plants/fish) in adding gas to any planted tank (fast or slow) as long as you adjust the CO2-levels to the specific setup/plants.
Low tech tanks with gas are (ime) definitely easier to control and to keep steady than full blown high tech setups (which can be quite unforgiving for mistakes)

But again:
That is just my opinion, maybe there is a flaw (or flaws) in my theory or i might have missed/forgot something... 
In that case i'm sure someone will tell me off whilst correcting any mistakes that might have slipped in my (bold or dodgy) statements... 

Edit: or maybe the definition of low tech implies the absence of pressurized co2 addition perse?
I don't know if there is something between low and hightech actually? When does a tank stop being lowtech one might ask...


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## Sirkavu (12 May 2018)

alto said:


> As long as there's visible plant debris, I'd not feed the shrimps additionally, or perhaps 1-2 times a week - Amano shrimp love frozen bloodworms
> Mature Amano shrimp can be quite determined fish food consumers & completely shirk their plant tending duties


Whenever I feed my fishes, they will definitely grab some fish food, I assume that is ok?


alto said:


> It's not unusual for shrimp to arrive rather hungry, they often slow down after a couple weeks
> They can decimate certain "tender" plants but 6 Amano are unlikely to devastate your tank without advance notice



Should I be worried? It is strange because the only ate these plants. Oh and one leaf from my Vall as it was unhealthy. If I take out the eaten leaves, will it grow back to normal?








Also, Would you agree with my EI measures above? Want to give some nutrientss to my plants today


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## Sirkavu (12 May 2018)

Hades said:


> All this feeds my believe that adding gas is possible (and can be advantageous) for both low and hightech setups.
> Except the higher costs i don't see real disadvantages (for the plants/fish) in adding gas to any planted tank (fast or slow) as long as you adjust the CO2-levels to the specific setup/plants.
> Low tech tanks with gas are (ime) definitely easier to control and to keep steady than full blown high tech setups (which can be quite unforgiving for mistakes)


Yeah I prefer low tech for now for those reasons - easier. As I am a beginner I  don't want to start high tech and do something wrong because it would be more difficult to deal with it after haha
I am not bothered with plants growing slow, as long they grow healthy. I know that some plants would benefit from the pressurized CO2 and colours would be more vibrant so if I can have CO2 and be (100% ) low tech, then I can get it later on hehe



Hades said:


> Edit: or maybe the definition of low tech implies the absence of pressurized co2 addition perse?
> I don't know if there is something between low and hightech actually? When does a tank stop being lowtech one might ask...


I think I read something about Hybrid, don't know if this is the in between or not though


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## alto (12 May 2018)

Sirkavu said:


> they will definitely grab some fish food, I assume that is ok?


 you'll certainly not be able to stop them - I just make sure they can't get entire wafers by breaking up larger foods
Not sure if Sera still does the food wafers that you can stick to glass (& they remain there) while fish eat away at them


Looks like some sort of Ludwigia stem plant, hopefully the plant will be forming roots & can regrow the leafs - as long as the stem remains "firm" rather than soft & melty, it should be fine (make sure it's not too shaded by the sword leaves)
It does look as if the shrimp ate both the older submerse leaves (that will die back anyway) & new growth 

The Vallisneria should regrow fairly quickly (though some species are more particular), you can trim or just allow shrimp to tidy the damaged leafs - note that once cut, most Vallisneria leafs will slowly die back - which is not really noticeable once plant is established & actively growing 


I don't subscribe to EI dosing so won't  comment on that


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## Sirkavu (13 May 2018)

alto said:


> Looks like some sort of Ludwigia stem plant, hopefully the plant will be forming roots & can regrow the leafs - as long as the stem remains "firm" rather than soft & melty, it should be fine (make sure it's not too shaded by the sword leaves)
> It does look as if the shrimp ate both the older submerse leaves (that will die back anyway) & new growth
> 
> The Vallisneria should regrow fairly quickly (though some species are more particular), you can trim or just allow shrimp to tidy the damaged leafs - note that once cut, most Vallisneria leafs will slowly die back - which is not really noticeable once plant is established & actively growing



Yeah stems are good and not damaged - happy for that haha. I did WC today - will do weekly only from now - and took some bits from the plants, bits I know they wont eat.

What is good, is that they are not on the plants now, only on the substract


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## Sirkavu (16 May 2018)

Yesterday I wanted to come but unfortunately had no time.

Since yesterday, my plants seem a bit strange, some leafs getting white for example. I think it was because I didn't put nutrients for almost a week (waiting for my EI starter kit) yet, since monday I have started with EI. Monday/Wednesday/Friday - Macro 10ml & Tuesday/Thursday/Saturday - Micro - Sunday I will do water change.

I wonder if it was for the lack of nutrients or not. What do you guys think, by looking at pictures, it could have be the problem?












Also, I think this is a baby snail no? If so, I got free snails without knowing hahaha




This weekend I want to get more flowers for the tank and maybe add one or two dragon stones. If I move few plants around, would that be a problem?

Thank you


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## Sirkavu (17 May 2018)

So today I got home to see some brown algae on my valls. I’ve reduced the photocintece to 4h from 6h just in case.

Do you guys know if it is the lights? I have mine covered with foil. 1/3 is covered.

Oh and my Amanos are a bit brown, is this normal? Guess so cuz they are a bit teansparent... Haha


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## Sirkavu (19 May 2018)

Hey @alto , any help here please?


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## alto (19 May 2018)

Hiya

You're subscribing to ian_m's planted tank methodology rather than mine, so not that keen on sticking my oar in 

I don't believe that the Juwel multilux LED need to be dimmed on this tank - the 50cm water column depth has already reduced substrate PAR to low to moderate levels
(look online at Tropica Inspiration page Juwel tanks, at professional aquascaper tanks (Jurijs mit JS, George Farmer, Filipe Oliveira ... with & without CO2) - sufficient light is an important aspect of leaf structure/health)

Algae is a component of planted tanks - it fares remarkably well in excessive light, moderate light, dim light - to me, limiting algae is about tank balance & maintenance rather than strongly limiting a single factor (eg, light)

What you're seeing is fairly typical - most aquarium plants are cultured emerse (think wet feet (fertilizer enriched), humid air, lots of light, CO2 ...), this gives them lots of stored energy for the transition to aquatic conditions (whatever they may be in an individual tank)
As plants establish, often first sign is root growth (why media such as Aquarium Soil with easily accessible (bioavailable) nutrients is helpful), followed by the development of new immerse (underwater) leaf structures - these are often thin & soft relative to emerse culture, also different shape 
This new immerse leaf is now able to (readily) uptake water column nutrients, scavenge the low levels of CO2 & light 

Some plants begin to adapt leaf structure almost immediately, other plants, more slowly

The breaking down (old emerse) leaf structure is a nice base for algae - some deeply attached into leaf structure (shrimp, snail etc crew will consume this algae while it's young/delectable/soft ), some just sitting atop leaf structure (easily rubbed off)

Of course algae will also try for new immerse leafs as well - a healthy new leaf tends to be more resistant to algae attack than the old emerse leafs - this is the aquarist job, supplying sufficient light, CO2, nutrients 

Here again, I differ with ian_m, I'm a limited nutrient person - excess nutrient molecules can inhibit enzymes, block transport mechanisms, etc
Most natural waters that aquatic plants are sourced from are relatively nutrient scant (vs dense), so water column fertilizers should be sufficient rather than excessive

Daily water changes can help with minimizing algae (mechanical removal of "spores" at the least)
Physical removal of visible algae
Physical removal of plant breakdown materials 

Soft brown algae that "rubs" off is usually diatoms - this is typical in tank startups, Otocinclus are the most effective diatom control 

CO2 - gas - are you still planning this? I usually add this at the beginning to help establish plants, even if I'm intending to  run non-CO2 _enriched_ later, often tap water is a decent source of dissolved CO2 (relative to tap water that has been standing/water in tank) so again daily water changes can assist plant growth

Liquid Carbon - this can be utilized efficiently by some plants, less so by others; it has a definite algicide/algistat effect so it's often useful to add daily 

You can also add carbonated water (look for low sodium) as a CO2 source - add daily; again this should be done with daily water changes to avoid buildup of other sparkling water components (most often sodium)
(Mick.Dk provided a dose somewhere) 

Fertilizers - as you might guess, I prefer to add small daily amounts rather than dumping in a weekly dose (especially in a beginning tank)

What's your algae crew? How many?
Are you seeing new growth on the carpet (Monte Carlo?)? Other plants?


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## alto (19 May 2018)

Decent Amano shrimp photos, there are definitely more "fake" Amano shrimp shipping these days


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## Sirkavu (20 May 2018)

alto said:


> I don't believe that the Juwel multilux LED need to be dimmed on this tank - the 50cm water column depth has already reduced substrate PAR to low to moderate levels
> (look online at Tropica Inspiration page Juwel tanks, at professional aquascaper tanks (Jurijs mit JS, George Farmer, Filipe Oliveira ... with & without CO2) - sufficient light is an important aspect of leaf structure/health)
> 
> Algae is a component of planted tanks - it fares remarkably well in excessive light, moderate light, dim light - to me, limiting algae is about tank balance & maintenance rather than strongly limiting a single factor (eg, light)
> ...


Yeah, they are growing. yesterday I wanted to rescape it and boom, just learned the roots are bigger than I thought it would be  Most of my plants are slow growing, but yeah I can see growth.

I did 50% water change yesterday morning and added EI Micro. Later afternoon I added the Liquid CO2. I currently have 6h of photosynthesis and just went down to 4h, just to see if it helps. Also grabbed a toothbrush to  take all algae from my rocks 

I am definitely doing more water changes, do you think they have to be daily still?

I am not sure about the gas CO2, as I don't want to spend much money due to my crazy insurance problem haha

I have 6 Amano Shrimps and am thinking on buying 4 more. I heard about Otos but, I am afraid to have both. Any other you would advice? I have neon tetras, amano and molies.


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## Sirkavu (20 May 2018)

alto said:


> Decent Amano shrimp photos, there are definitely more "fake" Amano shrimp shipping these days


Thanks, now I know where to order from hehehe
They look a like. I think they became brown due to the algae they ate?


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## Sirkavu (20 May 2018)

So, this is my tank 29 days later. I am still missing some plants to get rid of the space between my valls.








Some of my Neon Tetras ate more than they should - ups 



One of my Amanos












My Amanos seem great and healthy. 4 of 6 are a bit brown due to the brown algae they ate. Want to add 4 more next week.
My two Mollies are great as well. Now I think I will add 1 more female and 1 male (3F to 1M).

Some of my plants have brown algae on them, including my anubias. I hope by adding more Amano shrimps the algae on my plants can go away. I also bought new BIOPads so I can replace mine - they are brown and with some plant leaves.

Will also preform water change tomorrow.

I add 5ml of LC easycarb once lights go on, Micro OR Macro x3 a week, never on the same day and always in the morning, around 8am. I also try not to overfeed fishes as I can see some baby snails - no adults though.

All ideas and advices are more than welcomed


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