# Why is the Aquatics Industry so small? (UK)



## Greg's Pea (23 Feb 2012)

Would love to hear the opinions on why our (UK) aquatics industry is relatively small compared to some other nations. Surrounded by water and a nation of pet lovers yet not really fussed by what goes on in the sea or our rivers.

What do folk think? Do people imagine the industry will increase dramatically at some point or continue 'plodding along'?


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## Radik (23 Feb 2012)

I think it is not small but dominated by mostly Marine, then Cichlid and gold fish .


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## Greg's Pea (23 Feb 2012)

I can see your point that figures wise its marine but I wonder if more people have marine setups or if its the ones that do spend a lot more £'s on there setups compared to FW. Though goldfish have there place (massive tanks!) as a biologist I feel sad that our national species are not thought of for coldwater tanks.


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## Radik (23 Feb 2012)

I hope wave is turning thanks to few dedicated people and I hope more and more will follow


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## George Farmer (23 Feb 2012)

The UK aquatic industry isn't small. Are you talking about relatively speaking; planted vs other sectors?

The marine market is huge compared with planted. Both are growing, but marine exponentially.  The gear is cheaper/smaller than ever and the knowledge widespread.  Marine is the most desirable form of fishkeeping, and probably always will be. I follow a lot of marine industry leaders and they are driving the aquatics industry as a whole in terms of new technology and ideas.

Goldfish is still an easy revenue generator for retailers, as they're ill-perceived as easy fish for beginners. Sadly this couldn't be further from the truth.  Mass market; folk seeing goldfish as disposable ornaments.

Planted is a tough one. Most folk get algae and are put off for life - and Joe Bloggs is still scared witless of CO2 and nutrients. The information is there but it's still not commonplace in retailers - no way near. We're doing our best and it's getting better - slowly but surely.



			
				shaunb84 said:
			
		

> I feel sad that our national species are not thought of for coldwater tanks.


Most true native species would need a chiller I think - expensive to purchase and run.  But you are right, there is much beauty on our own doorstep. I won the 2009 AGA Aquascaping Contest Biotope Category with a stickleback biotope.


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## Iain Sutherland (23 Feb 2012)

shaunb84 said:
			
		

> I feel sad that our national species are not thought of for coldwater tanks.



Thats a thought, im embarrassed to say my knowledge of native fish that could work size wise etc is pathetic
If you educate me i could be inspired, as may many?
In fact i would love to see a thread of UK flora and fauna.... 

George - i really hope that the marine industry growth only push's for more cultivated corals and tank bred fish, the sustainability of the hobby makes me feel bad


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## jalexst (23 Feb 2012)

Definatley in my local shops the planted section is very very small if there at all... I have 3 MA shops close and I still get stuff online because they just don't stock it.    Also it's great to see tanks planted up but thay are scarce too.



> I won the 2009 AGA Aquascaping Contest Biotope Category with a stickleback biotope



I would love to see a thread of UK Flora and Fauna too...   

George, if that scape was the one in PFK a while back, that was my fave. Always go back to that one for a look    Love those sticklebacks, they looked great.


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## Greg's Pea (23 Feb 2012)

George Farmer said:
			
		

> The marine market is huge compared with planted. Both are growing, but marine exponentially.  The gear is cheaper/smaller than ever and the knowledge widespread.  Marine is the most desirable form of fishkeeping, and probably always will be. I follow a lot of marine industry leaders and they are driving the aquatics industry as a whole in terms of new technology and ideas.
> 
> Goldfish is still an easy revenue generator for retailers, as they're ill-perceived as easy fish for beginners. Sadly this couldn't be further from the truth.  Mass market; folk seeing goldfish as disposable ornaments.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your input George. It does confuse me though that CO2, and algae could be more off-putting than the relatively higher costs & effort required for a salty. Granted I haven't had a reef set-up for years though so my knowledge will be extremely outdated.

Fertiliser fear though surely can't be that great as huge swathes of people fertilise their gardens and even house plants. I know a lot of poor information is still present regarding this however.

I think if more LFS's put the same effort into making their FW show tanks aspirational pieces as they do with their SW tanks that planted tanks would become just as desirable as reef ones. In my experience, most fish shops still seem to be catering to folk who would rather cram as many fish in a tank as possible or breeding. I just think from a desire driving perspective that both can be pitiful or wonderful.

Oh, and yes I was talking relative not in general, should have made that clearer, my apologies. 

Cheers


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## skeletonw00t (23 Feb 2012)

All the chavs love their 350litre marine tanks in their council houses... Next to their 50inch plasma.


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## Emyr (23 Feb 2012)

I personally thing that its a good thing that its small. A niche hobbie and its quite specialist, especially with a high tech planted aquarium. Why would you want millions of people all interested in the same industry and hobby. It makes the whole thing more exciting and interesting rather than another generic hobby. Its partly what i love about it personally.


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## hinch (24 Feb 2012)

most domestic freshwater uk species grow far too big to keep in an aquarium (even most garden ponds are too small)

You could possibly get away with some little rudd, roach or young perch + as george mentioned sticklebacks.
Little F1 hids could do ok in a 6 footer but not much smaller.

thing to remember is that even the smaller species like rudd and roach will get to a good couple of pound! and perch will get upto about 5-7 pound all of them are bigger than most tropicals (apart from some of the catfish)


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## Gill (24 Feb 2012)

I can Understand how you feel about the subject. 
In some parts of the country there are more shops with better quality of goods. 
Take coventry for Example, at one point we had 11 Aquatics Stores here, and between them you could get most things you wanted.
In the Last 5 years there are now only 5 I would count as LFS'. The Smaller Stores have all closed down. And these were where the best variety could be bought. Now a Decent LFS is atleast 35Min drive each way.
The Internet has been great for the hobby, allowing a greater diversity for the buyer and the hobby. 
It takes so much hard work to get an LFS up and Running and becoming a profitable enterprise to keep going, long term. Which is one of the reasons, those who have the backing of a Chain are doing better and growing. 
The Hobby is growing, but not at the pace in which consumers want at the moment. Online is growing more, and more prfitable.


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## ghostsword (24 Feb 2012)

I believe that online is much bigger, look at the lot of ebay shops that there are available at the moment? 

All pond solutions for example is a big shop, so is rare aquatics.

I think what is needed is to get shops displaying better tanks but many shops make money selling non aquatics. 

It is good that ukaps is full of information, but the people are stubborn buying gold fish and mon aquatic plants.

Things may change, pfk has been doing more and more articles about planted tanks and people will start to notice, although would be good to have a dedicated aquascaping magazine.  




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## callmephathead (25 Feb 2012)

I think the reason why marine is bigger is because it is more talked about and more readily available in LFS. I went marine myself because it was the most stunning thing i saw in the LFSs I visited , and I wanted that exotic looking thing at home, regardless of the price to pay.
 I had never heard of or seen a high tech planted tank at the time so i never thought of starting one. Also, all the LFSs with a marine section that I have visited had at least one member of staff passionate about the thing, but I found only one shop where I could find someone able to share it's love about planted tank ( aquajardin gloucester BTW)
Now, another point:


			
				skeletonw00t said:
			
		

> All the chavs love their 350litre marine tanks in their council houses... Next to their 50inch plasma.


what is wrong with you? What pushes you to write that kind of rubbish? Are you angry because some people actually decide to spend more money on their tanks than you can perhaps?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sussex_cichlids (25 Feb 2012)

I dont think it small in any scale in the UK few years ago the aquatics trade did take bit of a dive as i sore about 4/5 local shops close or down size and other shops stop retailing fish altogether not just small shops but some quite big name in the trade like Fishy Business think they only closed one store in Burgess Hill West Sussex but that was a shock one week its there next it was gone.

Few others change hand like Dicker Aquatics and another lost was Kingston Aquatics at Wyevale Garden Center in Lewes East Sussex i should expect some member may of heard of Tranquility in Brighton massive store one best fish & reptile houses in Sussex they now gone that shocked me when i went there 5 months ago as there was no signs they were doing bad spoke to few people at aquatics live who knew them they were very shocked 

But we had few new shops open a new MA at Tunbridge Wells and  new P@H in Newhaven   

Yes aquatics trade has been hit hard a bit but what hasn't in last few years economically 

But with more shows like Aquatics Live taking off in the UK  were only going to see the hobby grow and get stronger again with more publicity and growth we could see some of the old shops reopen in time and from the numbers that were at aquatics live 2011 its looking good to see hobbie starting to grow again 

STOP BUYING FROM EBAY & ONLINE AND SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL FISH SHOP HELP THEM STAY OPEN


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## ghostsword (25 Feb 2012)

Easy to say stop buying from ebay. Come on.  

There is only two decent shops in london, a city with almost 12million people, and even sometimes those two are over priced and do not have what I need.

For example I wanted 10 pots of UG, could any local shop do it?  So bought 5 from Ireland and two from Edis. Only got 7 as they are in vitro.

I support local shops but one should also buy online. If a few pounds difference then I buy at the shop.


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## skeletonw00t (25 Feb 2012)

I'll buy where it's cheapest - most LFS are expensive, poor quality & give poor/no advice.

I refuse to feel sorry for any business that fails to adapt or better itself in the wake of competition.


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## ghostsword (25 Feb 2012)

skeletonw00t said:
			
		

> I'll buy where it's cheapest - most LFS are expensive, poor quality & give poor/no advice.
> 
> I refuse to feel sorry for any business that fails to adapt or better itself in the wake of competition.



Well said. The internet has helped to weed out the bad service.

I think that has also made many shops close down. But isn't that good riddance?

A goos shop lasts a long time for sure. Many people rather buy in person than online.




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## skeletonw00t (25 Feb 2012)

Yeah exactly - good LFS with good reputations, service & advice are flourishing... It's the poor ones that struggle... And thats their own fault.

The state of some of the LFS you find is just a joke & they know very little about their trade.


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## Gill (25 Feb 2012)

skeletonw00t said:
			
		

> I'll buy where it's cheapest - most LFS are expensive, poor quality & give poor/no advice.
> 
> I refuse to feel sorry for any business that fails to adapt or better itself in the wake of competition.



Totally. 
I buy 95% of my fish On Ebay/Forums/Classifieds. The internet Allows you to buy from a wider Scope of people and breeders. 
LFS' that have embraced Online are doing better than those who have not.


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## Ady34 (25 Feb 2012)

I much prefer to buy local if i can. 
Seeing what your buying is the most important thing to me, watching behaviour and the condition of holding tanks etc, especially for livestock. Id rather pay a few quid extra and be able to see what i buy. Plants ill try to source locally, but failing that ill buy online, but again only from trusted sources.
The reason most LFS cant survive is due to competition from the internet and the low prices offered. Its ok saying local fish shops are more expensive, but they have greater overheads. Admittedly if you are also not getting the correct advice then this needs to be addressed, but ive found in the most part that lfs advice is generally good. More specific issues eg with planted tanks can be addressed on forums such as this... remember this is a growing part of the hobby, UKAPS is promoting it but for most people in the aquarium/fish trade this is new and will only be expanded with increased demand.
As regards to poor quality in LFS, then this can im sure also be a problem found over the internet. Its more a case of finding a good LFS and not giving up on them because you dont like some of them.
Of course there are things that you just cant get locally and in this case obviously buying online is the only solution.
Cheerio,
Ady.


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## Iain Sutherland (25 Feb 2012)

Im lucky enough to have two great LFS near me, both being MA.  One already has a great plant selection in co2 enriched holding tank which i use a lot has now also started stocking marine. Popped over to my other MA 5 mins away and they have just installed 3 new large co2 plant tanks also.  I can only see that articles from George in PFK (Kudos) and the like are really getting the word out there about planted tanks. 
My only slight problem with the LFS is they never know what plants will be available when, having just placed a substantial order with TGM and AE i would have happily given MA the business if i could have been sure it would arrive on time and complete.
As a rule, recession tends to close down the cruddy stores, no loss in sorting the wheat from the chaff. 

My crystal balls spies planted tanks becoming a LOT more popular, firstly because they kick ass and secondly as expendable income continues to be under pressure, for many the rising cost of marine will see people seeking alternatives.... thats were UKAPS comes in


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## ghostsword (25 Feb 2012)

It well and true to say support the local shops, but if they are crap, stubborn and not ready to move with the times what should you do? Keep buying from them? 

I'd say vote with your feet (wallet) and buy from somewhere else, simple as that.

Yes you can spend time and try to explain to a pet shop owner jow could he get more business (I have tried) but they just don't care. I was told that bread and butter are marine, and fish, plants are not what they care.

Some even have non aquatic plants for sale, they would die some time soon and people will come back for more. $$$ 

What I have seen are shops turning to dogs and cars, two local shops are now selling dogs, cats, rats and spiders/snakes etc.

That must make more money than plants. 

So yes, I'll say buy online and support good shops. In London for fish there are three that I know, ADC, MA in morden and Wholesale aquatics in Mile End. For plants I think only MA and ADC.

I go to ADC every week and try to buy my stuff there. So I support the local shop. But would't you think that in a 12 million city that is pretty bad? 

70 million people in the UK and how many nice shops do you know? 20 maybe? Shocking. 


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## Tom (25 Feb 2012)

easerthegeezer said:
			
		

> Im lucky enough to have two great LFS near me, both being MA.



Are there 2 MA's in Cambridge then? I was at one a couple of weeks ago buying goldfish. One near a US Cemetery. Where is the other one?


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## awtong (26 Feb 2012)

You have MA Cambridge at Coton inside the Polhill garden centre which is the one near the Madingley American cemetry, the other is Maidenhead scotsdales in Great Shelford at the Scotsdales garden centre.

I personally prefer the Scotsdales store.

Andy


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## Tom (26 Feb 2012)

Thanks Andy, that's good to know!


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## Iain Sutherland (26 Feb 2012)

Tom said:
			
		

> easerthegeezer said:
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Yes mate, are you local to cambridge then?  I thought i was all alone   

I use scotsdales as a rule but find both to be very helpful and knowledgable.  Coton MA tends to get more uncommon fish which is always nice.  Last time i was in they had Asian Rummynoses which i had never seen before except in Viktors Asian spirit.

I consider myself very lucky to have 2 good LFS in close vacinity, seeing as others struggle to find one.


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## awtong (26 Feb 2012)

I would agree Iain both are pretty good stores.  I also go to Amwell Aquatics near Soham so I would say I have 3 really good stores within 25mins of me.  Coton tend to stock more variety of Plec's of which I am getting a bit of an addiction   .  

I am Newmarket based so not too far from you Iain.

Andy


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## Iain Sutherland (26 Feb 2012)

awtong said:
			
		

> I would agree Iain both are pretty good stores.  I also go to Amwell Aquatics near Soham so I would say I have 3 really good stores within 25mins of me.  Coton tend to stock more variety of Plec's of which I am getting a bit of an addiction   .
> 
> I am Newmarket based so not too far from you Iain.
> 
> Andy



Good to know there are some locals, always nice for plant swops etc...

Im not sold on Amwells, not sure why they just dont give me any confidence... not that i have a great deal of experience with them.

Had a really nice large green phantom at coton the other day, ££££££... i miss my gold nugget


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## awtong (26 Feb 2012)

OMG I better not tell the wife she has wanted a new one since we lost ours a while back.  My wallet may creek under the strain


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## somethingfishy (26 Feb 2012)

easerthegeezer said:
			
		

> awtong said:
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they are not that bad at amwells (they gave me a good deal last time we went in   )... but there fish can be a bit pricey 

ps sorry about the nugget bud


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## somethingfishy (26 Feb 2012)

awtong said:
			
		

> OMG I better not tell the wife she has wanted a new one since we lost ours a while back.  My wallet may creek under the strain



know what you mean about the plecos they have two nice tiger plecs in amwells at the mo ... but 50 notes each


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## Iain Sutherland (26 Feb 2012)

Gold nugget went in a mates low tech and didn't like the move, on it's back 3 days later. It was my last original fish too  

Wouldn't rule amwells out but MA are very good and on the door step.


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## somethingfishy (26 Feb 2012)

easerthegeezer said:
			
		

> Gold nugget went in a mates low tech and didn't like the move, on it's back 3 days later. It was my last original fish too
> 
> Wouldn't rule amwells out but MA are very good and on the door step.



MA are definately better thats for sure


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## danmil3s (26 Feb 2012)

Hi guys i'm not that far from Cambridge just up the road in Huntingdon. i went to amwells last weekend not a bad shop quite a wide range of stuff, they didn't have any plants when i went in Sunday afternoon. went in to Ely Aquatic Center on the way home they are in the middle of a refit so that might be interesting. the owner said all there plants come in on a Wednesday. fish stocking was minimal as the where moving them from one room to another. I'll definitely try the maidenhead at Scottsdale soon. I keep trying to convince the wife we need to go to the green machine


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## somethingfishy (26 Feb 2012)

think we are all looking for an exscuse to go the greenmachine  scottsdales is worth a visit, small at ely but they are always helpful there.


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## Greg's Pea (26 Feb 2012)

sussex_cichlids said:
			
		

> I dont think it small in any scale in the UK few years ago the aquatics trade did take bit of a dive as i sore about 4/5 local shops close or down size and other shops stop retailing fish altogether not just small shops but some quite big name in the trade like Fishy Business think they only closed one store in Burgess Hill West Sussex but that was a shock one week its there next it was gone.
> 
> Few others change hand like Dicker Aquatics and another lost was Kingston Aquatics at Wyevale Garden Center in Lewes East Sussex i should expect some member may of heard of Tranquility in Brighton massive store one best fish & reptile houses in Sussex they now gone that shocked me when i went there 5 months ago as there was no signs they were doing bad spoke to few people at aquatics live who knew them they were very shocked
> 
> ...



I completely agree with the adage of use them or lose them. Its completely understandable why they are more expensive than online and smaller businesses always suffer from economies of scale. Being in Brighton I have noticed all of what you said above, where do you find are the best shops down this area?


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## Greg's Pea (26 Feb 2012)

So what do you guys think would make 'the perfect shop'? For the consumer as well as the business obviously needing to make a healthy profit so they can stay competitive and on the curve?


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## Emyr (27 Feb 2012)

A shop with all the gear there is to choose from, at a reasonable price. Knowledgable staff who have as good an understanding of the industry etc as people on here and many display tanks all over for inspiration. A cafe would finish it off nicely.


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## sussex_cichlids (27 Feb 2012)

shaunb84 said:
			
		

> I completely agree with the adage of use them or lose them. Its completely understandable why they are more expensive than online and smaller businesses always suffer from economies of scale. Being in Brighton I have noticed all of what you said above, where do you find are the best shops down this area?




*Worthing you got*
Pets@Home

*Brighton you got *
Fishy Business
Paraquatics
Maidenhead Aquatics on the race course
Tranquility  Woodingdean [*Closed*]

*Eastbourne you got *
Pets@Home 
Aquamania
Fishy Business
Seaside Aquatics 
World Of Water

*Hailsham you got*
Fish Around
Dicker Aquatics

*Lewes you got*
Fur Feathers and Fins

*Newhaven you got*
Pets@Home

*Crowborough you got*
Mill Broke Aquatics 

*Tunbridge Wells you got* 
Maidenhead Aquatics
Theres a few for ya i try to get round most at least once a month hope thats helped?

Chris may beable to add a few i may have missed


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## ghostsword (27 Feb 2012)

Emyr said:
			
		

> A shop with all the gear there is to choose from, at a reasonable price. Knowledgable staff who have as good an understanding of the industry etc as people on here and many display tanks all over for inspiration. A cafe would finish it off nicely.



Yep, that would be perfect for sure. 

- Good kit, and cheap.
- No BS about ferts, EI, or trying to flog powerful lights
- Be a sponsor of UKAPS, or at least an active member
- Good plants, and an understanding of what a non aquatic plant is
- A couple of benches with aquascaping books to read

There is already a shop like this, TGM, pitty that it is in the "sticks" (i.e. far from London)


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## Greg's Pea (27 Feb 2012)

I'd love to know how profitable TGM actually is. Always hard to find reliable figures for ltd companies as they rarely show the true market value of a business due to salary allocation & dividend taking. I wonder which non chain store is the most profitable in the UK.


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## BigTom (27 Feb 2012)

Recently heard news that the only reasonable shop for planted aquariums near Edinburgh (OutsideInside in Haddington) is closing down, which is a shame.


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## ghostsword (27 Feb 2012)

shaunb84 said:
			
		

> I'd love to know how profitable TGM actually is. Always hard to find reliable figures for ltd companies as they rarely show the true market value of a business due to salary allocation & dividend taking. I wonder which non chain store is the most profitable in the UK.




I do think that TGM is profitable, both times I went to the shop they were not pushy with the sales at all, very relaxed, and outstanding service. A shop that is struggling for sure push sales. Also, the simple fact that I travelled from London, 4 hours on the train each way, just to buy some rocks, is testament of the pull the shop has. I am sure that people from nearby are going there often. 

I am sure that if other shops took their service attitude, displayed some good tanks, and had staff that understood our needs they would also be successful. 

If I ever open a shop will model it on TGM.


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## skeletonw00t (27 Feb 2012)

Yeah plus the mark-up on ADA products is probably huge...


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## George Farmer (27 Feb 2012)

skeletonw00t said:
			
		

> Yeah plus the mark-up on ADA products is probably huge...


Please let's not get into discussing pricing policies of retailers and suppliers. It usually ends in a train wreck and libellous comments.

Cheers,
George


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## George Farmer (27 Feb 2012)

I have the idea for the perfect shop but I'm not going to share it!


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## Ady34 (27 Feb 2012)

open one George, go on... The UKAPS STORE! a meeting place and shop.... brilliant!


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## Greg's Pea (27 Feb 2012)

George Farmer said:
			
		

> I have the idea for the perfect shop but I'm not going to share it!


 
Cards and chest good colleagues I see!  :silent: 

Having worked in a number of different industries it strikes me that some very keen aquarists run shops and some very keen businessmen run shops. When the twain meet surely sparks and water will fly!


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## skeletonw00t (27 Feb 2012)

George Farmer said:
			
		

> I have the idea for the perfect shop but I'm not going to share it!



I do too.

It would be like Hooters but they'd sell aquatics.


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## somethingfishy (27 Feb 2012)

skeletonw00t said:
			
		

> George Farmer said:
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if it was a good store then i would not notice the 'hooters' did i just say that!! its official i am tank obsessed


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## awtong (27 Feb 2012)

somethingfishy said:
			
		

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Already have 5 of these tiger/leopard frog's so I could just about manage to walk by them


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## somethingfishy (27 Feb 2012)

awtong said:
			
		

> somethingfishy said:
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would love to see some pics of those   plus do you think they are worth the notes cause they look cracking .. or is that a stupid question considering you have five


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## awtong (28 Feb 2012)

I will try and get some pics soon.  I am trying to set up a breeding colony but haven't got a mature male yet.  

The ones at Amwell are cheaper than both local MA's who have them at £75 each.  Prices have spiked due to import restrictions.

I actually had 3 and then got 2 mature females for £60 an absolute bargain.  I love them they are such interesting fish.  I also have a Blue Phantom (pic in the fish section) and a chocolate Zebra as well!

Andy


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## somethingfishy (28 Feb 2012)

awtong said:
			
		

> I will try and get some pics soon.  I am trying to set up a breeding colony but haven't got a mature male yet.
> 
> The ones at Amwell are cheaper than both local MA's who have them at £75 each.  Prices have spiked due to import restrictions.
> 
> ...



so in fact i could tell my wife they are a bargain   
time to do some research and see if i can provide them a good home


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## sussex_cichlids (28 Feb 2012)

George Farmer said:
			
		

> I have the idea for the perfect shop but I'm not going to share it!



This would get you started George 
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pet-Shop-aqua ... 27c331980e

If only i had £5000 spear i would have this for my shed


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## Antipofish (28 Feb 2012)

George Farmer said:
			
		

> I have the idea for the perfect shop but I'm not going to share it!



If you need a manager, consider me first in line. Hehehe


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## awtong (28 Feb 2012)

somethingfishy said:
			
		

> awtong said:
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Do you have a nutritious substrate that is capped in your tank?  One thing that isn't mentioned in the info on L134 plec's is that they like to dig.  Mine dig under my wood hardscape and make caves to sit in using their tail and fins.  It isn't an issue for me as I have plain old sand but if you have a capped substrate they could upset it and cause ammonia spikes.  Or I suppose you could try putting in some kind of slate cave although they might not like it and I have never tried this.  If you have gravel they wouldn't be able to dig and may not settle very well.  They also flick sand using their tail at other fish if they get too close to their cave.  Very funny to watch   

Andy


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## somethingfishy (28 Feb 2012)

sadly i have 3-5mm gravel in my tank .. and its a lot of pounds to end up with an unhappy fish, luckily as im finding the urge to rescape is near constant   so i dont think it will be too long until i have a tank they would be happy in. Or better still maybe i could get a second tank


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