# How do i find out what my KH is.



## Lee iley (17 May 2022)

Hi chaps, not posted for a while, I am just getting my tank set bk up and getting my head around the parameters again.  I have done a water report from my supplier. 

The hardness Clarke is 5.67 will this be ppm? My PH is 7.21, it says my water is mod soft. I am in the North West (preston)

Just want to know how I find what my KH is?

Cheers Lee


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## dw1305 (17 May 2022)

Hi all,


Lee iley said:


> The hardness Clarke is 5.67 will this be ppm?


No, it is just  another unit, like dKH.  Degrees Clarke are "English Hardness" <"and dKH "German Hardness">.

They are not dissimilar, so it is 4.6 dKH  (via the <"Lenntech hardness converter">).

cheers Darrel


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## Lee iley (17 May 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> No, it is just  another unit, like dKH.  Degrees Clarke are "English Hardness" <"and dKH "German Hardness">.
> 
> ...


Thanks darrel, how do I find out my KH?


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## plantnoobdude (17 May 2022)

API KH test kits are fairly reliable from my experience. always test correct kh when making my nahco3 solutions, for dropcheckers.


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## dw1305 (17 May 2022)

Hi all, 


Lee iley said:


> Thanks darrel, how do I find out my KH?


It is likely to be about 5 dKH / 5 dGH. The hardness is from limestone (CaCO3), and that gives 1 dGH (from the Ca++) and 1 dKH (from the 2HCO3-).


plantnoobdude said:


> API KH test kits are fairly reliable from my experience


Yes, they measure alkalinity rather than carbonate hardness, but they should be pretty accurate.

cheers Darrel


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## Aleman (18 May 2022)

Forget the water report, United Utilities switch water supplies frequently, which can lead to wildly different parameters.  I have had water lab tested throughout the year and seen swings in alkalinity (near as damnit carbonate hardness) from 20ppm (Haweswater) up to 138ppm (Some borehole)

The only way to know is to test it yourself, I have found the Salifert Total Alkalinity test kit to be accurate and repeatable, and it also agrees with the lab reports as well. You can also titrate it yourself using methylorange and an acid of known concentration ( I've used 0.1M hydrochloric), or titrate to the pH 4.3 endpoint. The calculation from amount of acid used to ppm or dKH is trivial, although I can't recall it now off the top of my head.


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## Lee iley (18 May 2022)

Aleman said:


> Forget the water report, United Utilities switch water supplies frequently, which can lead to wildly different parameters.  I have had water lab tested throughout the year and seen swings in alkalinity (near as damnit carbonate hardness) from 20ppm (Haweswater) up to 138ppm (Some borehole)
> 
> The only way to know is to test it yourself, I have found the Salifert Total Alkalinity test kit to be accurate and repeatable, and it also agrees with the lab reports as well. You can also titrate it yourself using methylorange and an acid of known concentration ( I've used 0.1M hydrochloric), or titrate to the pH 4.3 endpoint. The calculation from amount of acid used to ppm or dKH is trivial, although I can't recall it now off the top of my head.


Will this give me my KH reading? Or does KH not really matter? I know it's not important for plants just bothers me for the live stock I want to keep.


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## dw1305 (18 May 2022)

Hi all,


Aleman said:


> Forget the water report, United Utilities switch water supplies frequently, which can lead to wildly different parameters. I have had water lab tested throughout the year and seen swings in alkalinity (near as damnit carbonate hardness) from 20ppm (Haweswater) up to 138ppm (Some borehole)


Yes, it is difficult when you <"get a mixed supply"> from your water network.


Aleman said:


> The only way to know is to test it yourself, I have found the Salifert Total Alkalinity test kit to be accurate and repeatable, and it also agrees with the lab reports as well. You can also titrate it yourself using methylorange and an acid of known concentration ( I've used 0.1M hydrochloric), or titrate to the pH 4.3 endpoint. The calculation from amount of acid used to ppm or dKH is trivial, although I can't recall it now off the top of my head.


<"Acid base titration"> will give you an accurate answer, but I'd actually suggest a <"Conductivity meter">. It requires the assumption that the extra ions (that it is measuring) are from dissolved limestone (CaCO3), but that is a reasonable assumption in most cases.


Lee iley said:


> Or does KH not really matter? I know it's not important for plants just bothers me for the live stock I want to keep.


I'd suggest just a datum conductivity range, it will be somewhere near to the top conductivity reading that you get from your tap water. 

You can just add a <"remineralising salt"> to bring the tap water into the datum range. I have a <"consistent hard tap supply">, but the rain-water I use is <"variable through the year">. I just use our tap water as the "remineralising salt" in the winter, when the rainwater is nearer to DI water.

cheers Darrel


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## Aleman (18 May 2022)

Lee iley said:


> Will this give me my KH reading?


Yes


Lee iley said:


> Or does KH not really matter?


Well that depends 


Lee iley said:


> I know it's not important for plants just bothers me for the live stock I want to keep.


Actually, for some species, it is important for plants ... just take a look at the "Lean Dosing" threads 😂🤣😂🤣😅😂

It's important for the livestock I want to keep as well, I'm going down the "Amazonian Style" biotope route, so low GH and KH is a given, and I just hate the variability of our supply. It's not too bad from Haweswater, or even the reservoirs in the Forest of Bowland (Moorland run off), but when they switch to borehole sources, to "preserve" the reservoir stocks, the KH and GH rises dramatically. Most fish that are tank bred will adapt to different KH, but wild caught, or "sensitive" species are more demanding ... breeding also may well require more demanding control of the parameters.


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## Aleman (18 May 2022)

dw1305 said:


> <"Acid base titration"> will give you an accurate answer, but I'd actually suggest a <"Conductivity meter">. It requires the assumption that the extra ions (that it is measuring) are from dissolved limestone (CaCO3), but that is a reasonable assumption.


Cheers Darrel 👍👍👍, I'd actually forgotten the conductivity meter option, Strange when you consider I have 5 of them on my RO system 😂🤣😂🤣😅😂 :O


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## Lee iley (18 May 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Yes, it is difficult when you <"get a mixed supply"> from your water network.
> 
> ...


Thanks darrel, so I can just use a normal TDS pen to monitor the KH?


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## Lee iley (18 May 2022)

Aleman said:


> Yes
> 
> Well that depends
> 
> ...


All this just blags my head haha.


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## Lee iley (18 May 2022)

Aleman said:


> Cheers Darrel 👍👍👍, I'd actually forgotten the conductivity meter option, Strange when you consider I have 5 of them on my RO system 😂🤣😂🤣😅😂 :O


Do you use your tap water then? You are only 15mins drive from me. So our water must be nearly the same.


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## dw1305 (18 May 2022)

Hi all, 


Lee iley said:


> Thanks darrel, so I can just use a normal TDS pen to monitor the KH?


You can, if you assume that the largest component of the TDS is from dissolved limestone.

cheers Darrel


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## Lee iley (18 May 2022)

Aleman said:


> Forget the water report, United Utilities switch water supplies frequently, which can lead to wildly different parameters.  I have had water lab tested throughout the year and seen swings in alkalinity (near as damnit carbonate hardness) from 20ppm (Haweswater) up to 138ppm (Some borehole)
> 
> The only way to know is to test it yourself, I have found the Salifert Total Alkalinity test kit to be accurate and repeatable, and it also agrees with the lab reports as well. You can also titrate it yourself using methylorange and an acid of known concentration ( I've used 0.1M hydrochloric), or titrate to the pH 4.3 endpoint. The calculation from amount of acid used to ppm or dKH is trivial, although I can't recall it now off the top of my head.


I have found a salifert test kit on amazon for 12 pound does sound about right for the price? We're did you get yours from? Does the water report from untied utilities not tell you your KH level?


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## Lee iley (18 May 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> You can, if you assume that the largest component of the TDS is from dissolved limestone.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Cheers darrel, what is datum conductivity?


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## dw1305 (18 May 2022)

Hi all,


Aleman said:


> I'd actually forgotten the conductivity meter option,


I like conductivity meters. On one level conductivity isn't very useful, it is just a measure of ions in solution, but <"it is a linear scale"> and conductivity meters are pretty much <"plug and play">.

cheers Darrel


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## dw1305 (18 May 2022)

Hi all, 


Lee iley said:


> Cheers darrel, what is datum conductivity?


It is just a <"range of conductivity values">, derived from your water, where plant growth and fish health are acceptable. I use  ~ 80 - 140 microS,  but if I used our tap water (about 17 dKH, 17 dGH)  it would be more in the range 600 - 700 microS. 

Every-one will have a different range, dependent upon the conductivity of there initial water.

cheers Darrel


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## Lee iley (18 May 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> It is just a <"range of conductivity values">, derived from your water, where plant growth and fish health are acceptable. I use  ~ 80 - 140 microS,  but if I used our tap water (about 17 dKH, 17 dGH)  it would be more in the range 600 - 700 microS.
> 
> ...


Will a normal TDS pen do this reading or will I need a different pen?

Cheers Lee


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## Nick potts (18 May 2022)

Darrel is right with about using a TDS pen etc, but for the simplest method to just get an idea of your KH i would just grab a test kit such as the salifert, it will be good enough imo.


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## dw1305 (18 May 2022)

Hi all, 


Lee iley said:


> Will a normal TDS pen do this reading


It will. They actually measure conductivity and <"then use a conversion factor"> to estimate ppm TDS.

cheers Darrel


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## Aleman (18 May 2022)

Lee iley said:


> Do you use your tap water then?


No, I need Low GH/KH water, so I have a 200GPD RO System to do my water changes, and add a remineralizer to get my KH where I want it (~1dKH)


Lee iley said:


> You are only 15mins drive from me. So our water must be nearly the same.


It's very close, I think you get more of your supply from the Forest of Bowland, whereas we get more of ours from Haweswater ... And then you have summer . FoB has lower TDS overall and KH, and pH especially, than our supply.


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## Aleman (18 May 2022)

Lee iley said:


> I have found a salifert test kit on amazon for 12 pound does sound about right for the price? We're did you get yours from?


Yeah something like that, I got my last one along with a couple of other things from Charterhouse IIRC.


Lee iley said:


> Does the water report from untied utilities not tell you your KH level?


No, The problem with KH is that it is not a statutory requirement to report it, so I think UU take one value throughout the year, then report it as the min, average, and max value "as CACO3" which is bloody useless!! when ideally you would like it as ppm, dKH, or mill-equivilents. Can you tell I am less than enamoured with UU


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## Lee iley (18 May 2022)

Aleman said:


> Yeah something like that, I got my last one along with a couple of other things from Charterhouse IIRC.
> 
> No, The problem with KH is that it is not a statutory requirement to report it, so I think UU take one value throughout the year, then report it as the min, average, and max value "as CACO3" which is bloody useless!! when ideally you would like it as ppm, dKH, or mill-equivilents. Can you tell I am less than enamoured with UU


Yes haha, thanks for the reply I appreciate it. Just trying to get my head bk round it all. I shut my tanks down 2 years ago as we was moving house and never got round to doing them again. So I have forgot alot of the little knowledge I did know lol. I am now on setting my tank bk up. Just waiting for the plants and soil to be delivered then I will get cracking. I mainly want shrimps and tetras In my tank.


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## Lee iley (18 May 2022)

Nick potts said:


> Darrel is right with about using a TDS pen etc, but for the simplest method to just get an idea of your KH i would just grab a test kit such as the salifert, it will be good enough imo.


Thanks nick appreciate the help.


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## Nick potts (18 May 2022)

Lee iley said:


> Yes haha, thanks for the reply I appreciate it. Just trying to get my head bk round it all. I shut my tanks down 2 years ago as we was moving house and never got round to doing them again. So I have forgot alot of the little knowledge I did know lol. I am now on setting my tank bk up. Just waiting for the plants and soil to be delivered then I will get cracking. I mainly want shrimps and tetras In my tank.



For most tetras (captive-bred etc) and cherry shrimp I really wouldn't worry about KH ( or most tests TBH), caradina shrimp are different though if that's what you are planning.


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## dw1305 (18 May 2022)

Hi all,


Aleman said:


> then report it as the min, average, and max value "as CACO3" which is bloody useless!!


You can convert the CaCO3 value to ppm, dGH and dKH without any issue. 


dw1305 said:


> Perfect, you can convert the 137 mg/L CaCO3 value to dKH using: 1dKH = 17.86 mg/L CaCO3 and 137/17.86 = *7.67 dKH*.
> 
> The derivation of dKH etc is in Larry Frank's very useful <"Water Hardness"> article at the Krib.



I just went and got my water print out from Wessex Water. They now don't even put in the min. and max. values, just the mean value.




cheers Darrel


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## Aleman (18 May 2022)

dw1305 said:


> You can convert the CaCO3 value to ppm, dGH and dKH without any issue.


We have found in brewing "circles" that that is not necessarily true ... I've lost track of the brewing forum where this was discussed in nauseatingly infinite detail  . If you have a reliable test kit, and the salifert one is such, then it's better to measure it before brewing, and adjusting your brewing liquor, especially if your water source is variable


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## Lee iley (18 May 2022)

Nick potts said:


> For most tetras (captive-bred etc) and cherry shrimp I really wouldn't worry about KH ( or most tests TBH), caradina shrimp are different though if that's what you are planning.


Crystal shrimp, red cherry and amino shrimp. Galaxy rasbora aswel. You can look to deep into the water parameters I think.


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## dw1305 (18 May 2022)

Hi all,


Aleman said:


> We have found in brewing "circles" that that is not necessarily true ...


They should be true for the values from the water company, there isn't any source of ambiguity, it is just maths. 

For my water:
 (ppm CaCO3) / (ppm CaCO3 in 1 dGH) = 337.5 / 17.86 = 18.9 dGH (and 18.9 dKH)

 The derivations are all in <"Larry Franks "the Krib" article">.

You could potentially have other sources of hardness than just CaCO3, for both dGH and dKH, and I think you are right that the <"water from Burton upon Trent"> would be an exception, because the water contains additional evaporite minerals.

Most hard water in the UK is drawn from limestone aquifers which we laid in <"deep oceanic basins"> and these haven't subsequently undergone dolomitization.

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee (18 May 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> API KH test kits are fairly reliable from my experience. always test correct kh when making my nahco3 solutions, for dropcheckers.


Hi Folks,

The API KH test kit is what I use most of the time. But, the default resolution is just 1dKH. In other words, the measurements are, say, 2dKH, 3dKH, 4dKH, etc. For much better resolution (0.1dKH), I use the Tropic Marin KH Pro test kit. I use the latter for making up drop checker solution.

JPC


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## Yugang (18 May 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> The API KH test kit is what I use most of the time. But, the default resolution is just 1dKH. In other words, the measurements are, say, 2dKH, 3dKH, 4dKH, etc. For much better resolution (0.1dKH), I use the Tropic Marin KH Pro test kit. I use the latter for making up drop checker solution.
> 
> JPC


I am using API, but rather than de standard 5 ml (which gives the 1dkH resolution) I go for 10, 15 or 20. Then devide the count of the bubbles for color change correspondingly and as such have a better resolution with that kit.


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## jaypeecee (19 May 2022)

Yugang said:


> I am using API, but rather than de standard 5 ml (which gives the 1dkH resolution) I go for 10, 15 or 20. Then devide the count of the bubbles for color change correspondingly and as such have a better resolution with that kit.


Hi @Yugang 

Yes,  I wanted to suggest that to the OP. But, then, I realized that it wasn't straightforward as the API test tube only has a marker at 5ml and is not big enough to hold 10ml. It used to be the case that the API instructions suggested using 10ml, then divide the number of reagent drops by two (if I remember rightly).

JPC


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