# Help needed with 0 Nitrates Levels



## The.WishMaster (8 Feb 2022)

Hi Experts!! I have a question as a newbie.

I am very new to the hobby and after doing a lot of research into making a low-tech low maintenance tank (Followed MD fish tank & a lot of forums) I setup my first tank 1 month ago which is heavily planted and cycled. (180L - 100cm long)  
I am monitoring water parameters once a week and I have little to no nitrates so far. Max I measured has been <1ppm and once it was 5ppm after a fertilizer dosage.

I have 2 big filters running (70% biomedia and 30% mechanical filtration) and have a thick 4 layered substrate to house bacteria.

Bio load is (4 corydoras, 15 neon tetras, 4 honey gouramis, 2 pearl gouramis, 2 golden rams, 2 assassin snails, 4 guppies)

The question is this that why don't I have any nitrates?

Did I do such a good job that plants and bacteria are getting rid of all the nitrates for me or there is something wrong with my testing kit?   I am using a proper testing kit (JBL professional testing kit) and also I check with JBL testing strips as well.  Same results in both testing = 0 nitrates. So I want to know if this is normal or not and if its bad not to have any or very little nitrates.

I designed the system to do a once a month 20% water change IF needed but I dont know if I should do a water change if my ammonia/nitrites/nitrates are at 0ppm.  Are these parameters ok/safe for my fishes? 
My plants are thriving and growing like crazy. I did have algae in the beginning which I resolved by stopping my fert dosing and reducing light period. I will install co2 system today as well so my monetcarlo and hairgrass can start carpeting which is not happening currently.

Help / feedback is appreciated!


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## GHNelson (8 Feb 2022)

Hi
Your floating plants will suck a lot if the Nitrate out the water column as well as fast growing stems!
Algae is not caused by fertilizer dosing, excess light does.


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## The.WishMaster (8 Feb 2022)

Is it normal / ok to have 0 nitrate levels? Do I still need a waterchange even though all parameters that matter are 0 ? (Ammonia / Nitrites / Nitrates)


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## GHNelson (8 Feb 2022)

Hi 
Its not normaly a Nitrate level that I would strive for......10ppm to 30ppm is good.
Your plants will need some Nitrate eventually!
Just dose some fertilizer if your aquarium is not due for a water change.
hoggie


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## dw1305 (8 Feb 2022)

Hi all,


GHNelson said:


> Its not normaly a Nitrate level that I would strive for......10ppm to 30ppm is good. Your plants will need some Nitrate eventually!
> Just dose some fertilizer if your aquarium is not due for a water change.


What Hoggie (@GHNelson) says.


The.WishMaster said:


> My plants are thriving and growing like crazy.


That is the important bit.  Measuring nitrate (NO3-) <"can be problematic">, but plant growth and leaf colour is a <"very good proxy for nutrient level">.

Have look at the "seasoned tank time" concept, I've written about it a lot in terms of <"stability and resilience">, but this video gives that concept a name.



Plants are much more <"effective at depleting nutrients"> than most aquarium based literature acknowledges, but there is a <"wealth of scientific papers"> that look at synergistic plant / microbe effects.

cheers Darrel


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## Swishrelic (8 Feb 2022)

How often do you feed the fish? I've been feeding a little more regularly than I normally would to actually maintain a Nitrate level in my similar size tank. The introduction of CO2 might mean you'll need to add a bit more in if the growth really kicks in.


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## The.WishMaster (8 Feb 2022)

Swishrelic said:


> How often do you feed the fish? I've been feeding a little more regularly than I normally would to actually maintain a Nitrate level in my similar size tank. The introduction of CO2 might mean you'll need to add a bit more in if the growth really kicks in.


I feed them twice a day. I started doing that a week ago. Typically three pinches of crushed flakes and 5-7 corydoras pallets that are also eaten by my Rams and gouramis. How is Co2 going to affect this? Do you mean to say that with Co2 addition plants might grow faster which could mean that they would suck nitrates even faster ?


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## Swishrelic (8 Feb 2022)

Yes, you may need to add more Nitrates if you can't get it from the fish load.


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## The.WishMaster (8 Feb 2022)

Will start dosing from tomorrow. Should I stick to 1 fert dose a week or need to do it more frequently? I am afraid that too much nutrients could lead to algae maybe? Thats why I stopped with ferts in the first place.


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## hypnogogia (8 Feb 2022)

The.WishMaster said:


> Will start dosing from tomorrow. Should I stick to 1 fert dose a week or need to do it more frequently? I am afraid that too much nutrients could lead to algae maybe? Thats why I stopped with ferts in the first place.


To much ferts won’t cause algae, but too much light will.  The excess fertiliser is removed with water changes.


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## The.WishMaster (8 Feb 2022)

hypnogogia said:


> To much ferts won’t cause algae, but too much light will.  The excess fertiliser is removed with water changes.


Currently my lights are on for 10 hours. Do you think I can keep the same schedule with ferts?


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## Hufsa (8 Feb 2022)

The.WishMaster said:


> I am afraid that too much nutrients could lead to algae maybe?


Ferts wont cause algae on their own, if you have good control over CO2 level (even in low tech) and the right amount of light you can add however much ferts you want. I dosed full EI into my low tech tank, no change to amount of algae. Once I got my light intensity down to match the low level of CO2 in my tank algae went away.

However, EI is just one method to do it, there are more than one way to grow plants. EI (or partial EI) in a low tech tank is about limiting the system with light intensity.
All systems will have a limit to plant growth, different methods use different limits.
Lean water column dosing (like MD uses) limits the nutrients in the water but usually have high light and almost always have a substrate enriched with nutrients that mostly only the plants can access. There is user evidence to suggest this method is harder to balance, as evidenced by the amount of newcomers we get who have followed MD's method and struggle with it. MD has gotten really good at his own method and even then he doesnt hide that he usually gets some fairly large algae blooms at first. Also keep in mind that he rarely runs a tank for more than a year. A lot of things will happen to a system once it passes a certain age, substrate may start to deplete and plant growth may stall, debris will start to accumulate and you may get algae from that, etc.
I would suggest you follow the EI method for a year or so until you have good control over your tank, after that it is much easier to experiment with all sorts of things.
The addition of injected CO2 could increase your plants demand for nutrients by as much as 10x, and algae loves starving plants.



The.WishMaster said:


> Currently my lights are on for 10 hours. Do you think I can keep the same schedule with ferts?


If you are struggling with algae I would start at 6 hours. Once everything is running smoothly for several weeks you can increase slowly. Keep in mind photoperiod (how long lights are on) and lighting intensity, are two separate things and are not interchangeable.


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## jaypeecee (8 Feb 2022)

The.WishMaster said:


> I am using a proper testing kit (JBL professional testing kit)





The.WishMaster said:


> My plants are thriving and growing like crazy.


Hi @The.WishMaster 

I have also previously used the JBL Nitrate Test Kit and it is reliable. As others have said, your last comment above says it all. Your plants are gobbling up the nitrate in your water. To put your mind at rest, you could test your tap water for nitrate and it will almost certainly give a reading above 0ppm.

JPC


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## Hufsa (8 Feb 2022)

Im sorry @The.WishMaster , I mistook your thread for help with algae, but you were rather asking if it is okay with no nitrates, my mistake. It is indeed your plants eating your nitrates  If you are having good success with your current method there is no reason why you should change it unless you want to  I would advise you to monitor the plants carefully, especially those who do not have access to the enriched substrate, like floating plants, mosses and epiphytes. You could add a small dose of fertilizer now and then just to make sure your plants arent getting too hungry. You will almost certainly need to do so if you add injected CO2, because of the increase in demand.

Your tank looks lovely by the way, I hope you keep us updated on it 😊


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## arcturus (8 Feb 2022)

The.WishMaster said:


> I am afraid that too much nutrients could lead to algae maybe? Thats why I stopped with ferts in the first place.


As other said, fertilizers in excess will _not _cause algae. But lack of fertilizers will eventually lead to nutrient deficiency and the plants will start to struggle. If you combine that with too much light, like you have now, then you are creating ideal conditions for the algae to take over. The algae will be (mostly) in check while the plants are growing healthy. So, you need to keep adequate nutrient levels in the tank. Since you are not injecting CO2, the plant growth is already limited so you likely do not need to exceed the recommended fertilizer dose. If you add too much light then plant photosynthesis will demand more CO2 and nutrients that are not available.



The.WishMaster said:


> Will start dosing from tomorrow. Should I stick to 1 fert dose a week or need to do it more frequently?


Dose the tank with Macro (NPK) and Micro (trace elements) according to the manufacturer recommendations. Since you have floating plants you might need to supplement extra Nitrates, especially if you use "leaner" fertilizers, such as Tropica's. If the plants start showing signs of stunting or deficiencies then you need to add more fertilizers. You also need to increase the dosage if you increase the light intensity or photoperiod. Again, excess fertilizer will not cause algae.



The.WishMaster said:


> I designed the system to do a once a month 20% water change IF needed but I dont know if I should do a water change if my ammonia/nitrites/nitrates are at 0ppm. Are these parameters ok/safe for my fishes?


Water changes remove and dilute unwanted substances in the water. Ammonia and nitrites should be zero since they are toxic. Nitrates are essential for plant growth and should be 10-20 ppm.


The.WishMaster said:


> My plants are thriving and growing like crazy. I did have algae in the beginning which I resolved by stopping my fert dosing and reducing light period.


The algae during the startup are completely normal and have nothing to do with with ferts but with the tank being unstable. During this stage, too much light will only trigger more algae.


The.WishMaster said:


> I will install co2 system today as well so my monetcarlo and hairgrass can start carpeting which is not happening currently.


CO2 is a game changer. 20% WC per month is not compatible with CO2. You will need ~50% WC _per week_. You will have to adjust everything as soon as you start injecting CO2. Especially, you will need a completely different fertilization regime.


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## The.WishMaster (8 Feb 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Im sorry @The.WishMaster , I mistook your thread for help with algae, but you were rather asking if it is okay with no nitrates, my mistake. It is indeed your plants eating your nitrates  If you are having good success with your current method there is no reason why you should change it unless you want to  I would advise you to monitor the plants carefully, especially those who do not have access to the enriched substrate, like floating plants, mosses and epiphytes. You could add a small dose of fertilizer now and then just to make sure your plants arent getting too hungry. You will almost certainly need to do so if you add injected CO2, because of the increase in demand.
> 
> Your tank looks lovely by the way, I hope you keep us updated on it 😊


Thank you. Your message still helped a lot in terms of education. 
Looking at "No nitrates " levels I was just surprised and was wondering if something is wrong or am I doing an amazing job at achieving what MD preaches. I built it as a low tech tank which would require little to no water changes however I still expected some nitrates. My biofilter and 4 layered subtrate and of course the plants are then definitely doing the job of sucking up all the nitrates. I will start dosing a bit of fert once I get my Co2 running and maybe it might increase nitrates a bit as my fert contains nitrates in it (Colombo Pro Special Fertilizer - NPK including nitrates)


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## MichaelJ (8 Feb 2022)

The.WishMaster said:


> results in both testing = 0 nitrates. So I want to know if this is normal or not and if its bad not to have any or very little nitrates.



Hi @The.WishMaster   Your tank looks great!   ... zero nitrate? I highly doubt you nitrate level is really around zero...  Its one of the premier foods for our plants. As mentioned measuring NO3 is hard. Your plants look great though, but you might be running dangerously low on nitrate, which may become a problem in the near future... especially if you're in the process of implementing CO2.  What are you dosing currently and how much? I would start dosing more regardless....

Cheers,
Michael


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## The.WishMaster (8 Feb 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> Hi @The.WishMaster   Your tank looks great!   ... zero nitrate? I highly doubt you nitrate level is really around zero...  Its one of the prime foods for our plants. As mentioned measuring NO3 is hard. Your plants look great! You might be running low on nitrate, which may become a problem in the near future. I would start dosing more.... especially if you're in the process of implementing CO2.  What are you dosing currently and how much?
> 
> Cheers,
> Michael


Yeah less than 1ppm or 0ppm nitrates. Thats why I am asking if this is even possible?
i stopped dosing ferts as I thought they are giving me algae. I use Colombo Flora Grow Pro Special Fertilizer. When I was dosing with it, I would add 30ml once a week. 

Thank you for your compliments on the tank. It is my first ever try and first ever fish tank. I am in love with the hobby!!


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## Hufsa (8 Feb 2022)

The.WishMaster said:


> Thats why I am asking if this is even possible?


I think its possible, others may disagree. A lot of people on the forum dont trust test kits much, I am starting to trust them less and less myself. Your tank has only been running a month though, so quite a short time, things may change later on as everything settles down.

I think adding small amounts of fertilizer often will be better for your system than adding a lot more rarely. Algae have evolved to thrive with rapid changes, while plants are slower but can tolerate bad periods better and store nutrients because of their complex structures. Plants slowly (week or more) adapt to the conditions they find themselves living in, therefore it is almost always a good idea to keep things as stable as possible. Otherwise they spend a lot of energy trying to reprogram / readapt themselves all the time.


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## arcturus (8 Feb 2022)

The.WishMaster said:


> Thank you. Your message still helped a lot in terms of education.
> Looking at "No nitrates " levels I was just surprised and was wondering if something is wrong or am I doing an amazing job at achieving what MD preaches. I built it as a low tech tank which would require little to no water changes however I still expected some nitrates.


With 10h of light, floating plants and without adding ferts to the water column it is normal that you have a reading of near zero nitrates. Since you are using a rich substrate, the plants are getting nitrates from the soil.



The.WishMaster said:


> My biofilter and 4 layered subtrate and of course the plants are then definitely doing the job of sucking up all the nitrates. I will start dosing a bit of fert once I get my Co2 running and maybe it might increase nitrates a bit as my fert contains nitrates in it (Colombo Pro Special Fertilizer - NPK including nitrates)


You have a very nice tank and you should think twice if you really want to add CO2. Once you start injecting CO2, then you cannot dose "a bit" of ferts. It will not work. With CO2 you will need to change ~50% every week, and not 20% once per month. So, think if you want to keep a low-tech setup like you have now, or if you want to go high-tech with CO2. If you start with CO2 then you need to adapt everything you are doing right today.


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## The.WishMaster (8 Feb 2022)

Hufsa said:


> I think its possible, others may disagree. A lot of people on the forum dont trust test kits much, I am starting to trust them less and less myself. Your tank has only been running a month though, so quite a short time, things may change later on as everything settles down.
> 
> I think adding small amounts of fertilizer often will be better for your system than adding a lot more rarely. Algae have evolved to thrive with rapid changes, while plants are slower but can tolerate bad periods better and store nutrients because of their complex structures. Plants slowly (week or more) adapt to the conditions they find themselves living in, therefore it is almost always a good idea to keep things as stable as possible. Otherwise they spend a lot of energy trying to reprogram / readapt themselves all the time.


Thats why I am using 2 different testing methods, one professional drop testing kit and strip tests (untrustworthy). 
I will simple do regular once a week dosage but maybe half the recommended dosage to see how my plants respond. Every plant (but two) is growing really well. I am struggling really hard with Montecarlo and Hairgrass, thats why I bought a Co2 system in hopes that it will make it possible to grow some carpet.


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## The.WishMaster (8 Feb 2022)

arcturus said:


> You have a very nice tank and you should think twice if you really want to add CO2. Once you start injecting CO2, then you cannot dose "a bit" of ferts. It will not work. With CO2 you will need to change ~50% every week, and not 20% once per month. So, think if you want to keep a low-tech setup like you have now, or if you want to go high-tech with CO2. If you start with CO2 then you need to adapt everything you are doing right today.


How would Co2 and fert affect water changes when my (Ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates are 0)?


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## Hufsa (8 Feb 2022)

The.WishMaster said:


> How would Co2 and fert affect water changes when my (Ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates are 0)?


Simply put there is a lot more in aquarium water than ammonia, nitrite and nitrates. Plants are quite leaky structures and when they grow they release various compounds into the water column. Slow growing plants in low tech release not so much, but plants growing under CO2 grow faster and therefore release a lot more. Frequent water changes in high tech tanks are not done because the ferts are getting too high, but because the plants cause a lot of unmeasurable waste that will affect water quality if you let them build too much. You can compare it to a large tank with 5 small fish vs the same tank but it has 50 big fish. The tank with just the small fish may not need water changes that often, but still every now and then, to keep down harmful bacteria and pathogens that are steadily increasing and will start to wear on your fish. But the same tank with 50 big fish, the load that the system is under is much greater, and therefore more water changes are needed, even if there are no readings for nitrate, etc. Fish breeders know this well, and this is why they change a lot of water in tanks with large groups of baby fish. They eat a lot and grow a lot and pollute the water, even if we cant measure it with test kits. I hope this makes sense


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## arcturus (8 Feb 2022)

The.WishMaster said:


> How would Co2 and fert affect water changes when my (Ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates are 0)?


CO2 is the most important nutrient for plants. It is unrelated to ammonia and nitrites and nitrates.

Once you start dosing CO2 the plants will start photosynthesizing more and will have the potential for growing much faster (some plants will grow 10x faster). In this process, plants will require (much) more nutrients, which are provided by the soil and by the liquid fertilizer you are adding to the water. If you add CO2 and do not adjust the rest of the nutrients the plants will start collapsing and algae will take over.

Since the plants grow much faster with CO2, they also release unwanted substances to the water during this process. At the same time, the amount of fertilizers in the water column can accumulate. So, you need water changes to reset the system. Hence the ~50% weekly water changes with CO2. In a low-tech (no CO2) tank, the plants grow slower and the fert dosage is lower, so you need less frequent water changes.

Note that ammonia and nitrites will remain at (near) zero because your plants will be using them. These are toxic. Nitrates are a fundamental nutrient and cannot be zero if you are using CO2.


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## The.WishMaster (8 Feb 2022)

arcturus said:


> CO2 is the most important nutrient for plants. It is unrelated to ammonia and nitrites and nitrates.
> 
> Once you start dosing CO2 the plants will start photosynthesizing more and will have the potential for growing much faster (some plants will grow 10x faster). In this process, plants will require (much) more nutrients, which are provided by the soil and by the liquid fertilizer you are adding to the water. If you add CO2 and do not adjust the rest of the nutrients the plants will start collapsing and algae will take over.
> 
> ...


Now i feel sad/confused.  When I was designing this, I had one goal, to do as less water changes as possible and have a healthy and heavily planted setup. I achieved that currently I think. I thought with an external filter and Co2 reactor it will just make it better for my tank therefore I spent the extra money and bought those two and now after hearing from you all I am thinking if I made a big mistake and if it would lead to me to the direct opposite of my goal which was to do very few water changes.


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## arcturus (8 Feb 2022)

The.WishMaster said:


> Now i feel sad/confused.  When I was designing this, I had one goal, to do as less water changes as possible and have a healthy and heavily planted setup. I achieved that currently I think. I thought with an external filter and Co2 reactor it will just make it better for my tank therefore I spent the extra money and bought those two and now after hearing from you all I am thinking if I made a big mistake and if it would lead to me to the direct opposite of my goal which was to do very few water changes.


The reality is that tanks with CO2 injection are high-maintenance and quite unforgiving. CO2 injection is unfortunately _not _compatible with infrequent water changes or lack of maintenance. The plants will be much happier with CO2 and it is much easier to grow carpet plants. But you will need a lot more time to keep the tank running properly. If you want to follow the same route that youtube's MD has recently adopted, then skip the CO2. If you want to pursue CO2 with all its benefits you will need to pay the price... and the currency is weekly water changes plus a lot of maintenance (when compared to a low tech tank).



The.WishMaster said:


> I will simple do regular once a week dosage but maybe half the recommended dosage to see how my plants respond.


If you add CO2 then you should to start with the recommended dosage for CO2, which is significantly higher than for a tank without CO2. After the plants are fully adapted to CO2 and growing healthy, then you can start adjusting the ferts. This will take several weeks. It will also take you some time to adjust CO2 injection properly, which is not a simple task. Please do not underestimate the amount of fertilizers the plants will need using once CO2 is injected.


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## Hufsa (8 Feb 2022)

The.WishMaster said:


> I had one goal, to do as less water changes as possible and have a healthy and heavily planted setup.


May I ask why?


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## The.WishMaster (8 Feb 2022)

Hufsa said:


> May I ask why?


Just because I am extremely busy with so many other things in life that finding time to do a 50% water change every week is mostly not possible for me. I know you may think that "Anyone can do once a week water change" but i have so many other responsibilities I don't think I can and I would hate to be the person who would let his fishes / plants suffer due my own unavailability and commitment so I did a lot of research and went for such a setup that would require maybe once a month water change if my Nitrates get out of hand (above 20ppm).  I also read that 30-40 years ago, people would not even do any water change in their aquariums and will just top off and their tanks did fine. But yeah thats the gist of it. I am still aiming to do once a month big water change and a lot of weekly maintenance like cleaning glass and trimming plants etc but 50% water change for now is not on the cards unless my fishes and plants are at risk.


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## arcturus (9 Feb 2022)

The.WishMaster said:


> Just because I am extremely busy with so many other things in life that finding time to do a 50% water change every week is mostly not possible for me. I know you may think that "Anyone can do once a week water change" but i have so many other responsibilities I don't think I can and I would hate to be the person who would let his fishes / plants suffer due my own unavailability and commitment so I did a lot of research and went for such a setup that would require maybe once a month water change if my Nitrates get out of hand (above 20ppm).


Water changes are not meant to remove nitrates, but to remove the unwanted detritus as well as dissolved solids and substances from the water. Nitrates are actually a fundamental nutrient and 20ppm of nitrates is actually an excellent level for a planted tank.


The.WishMaster said:


> I also read that 30-40 years ago, people would not even do any water change in their aquariums and will just top off and their tanks did fine. But yeah thats the gist of it


Those tanks did not have CO2 injection... and you can have infrequent water changes in a low tech tank, especially if you use a lot of plants and keep the livestock density low. But this does not work in a tank with CO2 injection.


The.WishMaster said:


> I am still aiming to do once a month big water change and a lot of weekly maintenance like cleaning glass and trimming plants etc but 50% water change for now is not on the cards unless my fishes and plants are at risk.


You have a 180 liter tank, so you would need 80-90 litres of water per week. If you set up a proper system, a 90l water change should take you ~15 minutes. This requires you to run a hose to the nearest water tap or use a small pump. If you have a garden, then disposing of the water is even easier.



The.WishMaster said:


> Just because I am extremely busy with so many other things in life that finding time to do a 50% water change every week is mostly not possible for me.


You have a very nice tank and you can focus on growing the plants you have there or adding a few other plants that do not need CO2 injection. You can try growing <some carpet plants in a low tech setup>, but this can be hard. So, if you are busy and have planned to minimize water changes, then do so. Forget about CO2 injection, and keep enjoying your current low-tech setup! Do not move to high-tech unless you really understand what it implies. In my opinion, and based on what you said, you would be making a major mistake if you start using CO2.


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## MichaelJ (9 Feb 2022)

arcturus said:


> With 10h of light, floating plants and without adding ferts to the water column it is normal that you have a reading of near zero nitrates.



With the rather infrequent WC routine, it might be that the NH4 from the livestock, food and plant waste is satisfying the plants need for N.

Cheers,
Michael


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## dw1305 (7 Apr 2022)

Hi all, 


dw1305 said:


> Have look at the "seasoned tank time" concept


I've found an older "Aquarium Co-Op" video that discusses the plants and cycling. 



cheers Darrel


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