# UKAPS Aquatic Plant Layout Contest?



## Geoffrey Rea (15 Nov 2020)

Simple question.


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## Kezzab (15 Nov 2020)

Dioramas only.


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## Tim Harrison (15 Nov 2020)

Or it could be the first Nature Aquarium only contest


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## Kezzab (15 Nov 2020)

Tim Harrison said:


> It could be the first Nature Aquarium only contest


You better start work on your definition now.


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## Tim Harrison (15 Nov 2020)

I think the existing IAPLC judging criteria will work well if it's defined more clearly and judges adhere to it more stringently.


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## castle (15 Nov 2020)

I'd like a video entry to be part of the submission process, youtube link or similar.


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## Nick potts (15 Nov 2020)

Great idea. I'd have no chance but would still enter.


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## Geoffrey Rea (15 Nov 2020)

So what are people’s thoughts on having categories? Or is simply having one competition to enter more appealing?


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## Wolf6 (15 Nov 2020)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> So what are people’s thoughts on having categories? Or is simply having one competition to enter more appealing?


Depends on the number of contestants really. But biotope/specialised should have its own category outside of that, its difficult.


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## Geoffrey Rea (15 Nov 2020)

Wolf6 said:


> Depends on the number of contestants really.



It does, the poll may help gauge whether this idea gets any traction or just disappears into the backdrop.




Wolf6 said:


> But biotope/specialised should have its own category



This would be cool 😎


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## Wookii (15 Nov 2020)

I think it would be a great idea. I think three categories feel appropriate, Nature Aquarium style, Diorama style, and Biotope style.

Each category can be fairly broad - our community probably isn’t large enough for them to be too rigid (hence why I’ve added the word ‘style’ at the end of each category). Ultimately each contestant needs to decide which creative ‘style’ their scape best fits into based on their goals when they designed it, and the scape will be judged on the criteria specific to that category.


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## Tim Harrison (16 Nov 2020)

Wookii said:


> Ultimately each contestant needs to decide which creative ‘style’ their scape best fits into based on their goals when they designed it, and the scape will be judged on the criteria specific to that category.


Good idea, that could work.


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## Geoffrey Rea (16 Nov 2020)

Voting has been set to private so no names, just an overall count for each option. Enables honest voting without being associated with your vote.

There is always the option to change your vote as time goes on should the proposed competition become more/less desirable. ‘Change Vote’ button at the top of the thread in the bottom right corner of the polling box.

If anyone has any thoughts/gripes/insights about how competitions are currently run this is an opportunity to discuss this. If prior feedback is taken into account, the hope is to create a competition the community agrees is inclusive to as many levels of skill and entices people to enter and discuss future improvements for them in a supportive manner. Encourage everyone to comment on what they think and feel is a APLC they would want to be part of.


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## Wookii (16 Nov 2020)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> Voting has been set to private so no names, just an overall count for each option. Enables honest voting without being associated with your vote.
> 
> There is always the option to change your vote as time goes on should the proposed competition become more/less desirable. ‘Change Vote’ button at the top of the thread in the bottom right corner of the polling box.
> 
> If anyone has any thoughts/gripes/insights about how competitions are currently run this is an opportunity to discuss this. If prior feedback is taken into account, the hope is to create a competition the community agrees is inclusive to as many levels of skill and entices people to enter and discuss future improvements for them in a supportive manner. Encourage everyone to comment on what they think and feel is a APLC they would want to be part of.



If we want this to be an aquarium scaping/plant layout competition that is as inclusive as possible, and encourages beginners to participate, I personally I think there needs to be a way to level the playing field on the photography side somehow. 

When I look across this site alone, there are some people that take some amazing photos of their tanks, who clearly have decent quality cameras and who have a good level of skill and working knowledge for getting the best from them both within the camera, and within post (and by that I mean legal post - editing exposure, levels etc etc). However others struggle to get decent shots because they don't have the gear, or don't have the skills to get the best shot or the best from the final shot in post. 

The difference in photography skills can make a good tank look great, but conversely the reverse - can make a great tank look only average. It's particularly evident when you occasionally see IAPLC prize winners interviewed on video next to their tanks. Ignoring the illegal editing that has been the source of recent discussion, those aquariums never seem to look nearly as impressive in the videos as they do in the submitted contest photo. 

I don't really have a credible solution to offer (yeah, I know, "don't bring me problems, bring me solutions"), however I can envisage it might be a factor in both judged competition results (judges can't necessarily be expected to see past a great photo, and likewise the potential though a poor one), and also potentially in the willingness of many to submit their aquarium images to the competition if they feel they can't grab a prize winning photo.


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## Kezzab (16 Nov 2020)

Self serving personal bias but I agree with @Wookii 
Also not sure of solution. Video? Smartphones only?


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## Geoffrey Rea (16 Nov 2020)

Wookii said:


> I personally I think there needs to be a way to level the playing field on the photography side somehow.






Kezzab said:


> I agree with @Wookii
> Also not sure of solution. Video? Smartphones only?



This is tricksy. Even using a modern iPhone for example, pictures are actually a composite of a short movie stitched together to render it into a single ‘photo’, then enhanced all automatically. There is irony in that all modern phone photos are heavily enhanced photos, but using phones kind of standardises the process.



Wookii said:


> However others struggle to get decent shots because they don't have the gear, or don't have the skills to get the best shot or the best from the final shot in post.



Let’s change this. If you remove all the secrecy that is encouraged in other competitions (which is enforced through the rules as the competition owners have the rights to publicise your submitted photo thereafter, so it serves their interests for your work not being seen prior to submissions) then people can get support setting up their final shot as a process. Basically, bucking the trend that everything is kept secret.

The counter argument is seeing a fellow competitors work may influence people to copy, but it is a weak argument in a small community if the purpose of the comp more broadly is to improve everyone’s skills more generally ‘for next time around’.




Wookii said:


> grab a prize winning photo.



There has been no conversation around what the prize would be. This is a big one as it will influence people’s behaviour towards fellow competitors drastically, shaping the nature of the competition.


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## Wookii (16 Nov 2020)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> There has been no conversation around what the prize would be. This is a big one as it will influence people’s behaviour towards fellow competitors drastically, shaping the nature of the competition.



Just to clarify when I said 'prize winning photo' I didn't mean a physical prize, just a top ranked (e.g. Gold, Silver, Bronze) placing. Personally I'm not particularly sure there should be a physical or financial prize.


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## Kezzab (16 Nov 2020)

No money. Maybe an honorary title for a year, King/Queen of Ukaps.


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## Wolf6 (16 Nov 2020)

Tbh just getting tips on how to improve would be the best win for someone like me, regardles of rank  Maybe feature the winner on the facebook page for a while or something?


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## Nick potts (16 Nov 2020)

Wookii said:


> If we want this to be an aquarium scaping/plant layout competition that is as inclusive as possible, and encourages beginners to participate, I personally I think there needs to be a way to level the playing field on the photography side somehow.
> 
> When I look across this site alone, there are some people that take some amazing photos of their tanks, who clearly have decent quality cameras and who have a good level of skill and working knowledge for getting the best from them both within the camera, and within post (and by that I mean legal post - editing exposure, levels etc etc). However others struggle to get decent shots because they don't have the gear, or don't have the skills to get the best shot or the best from the final shot in post.
> 
> ...


This is a good point.

I have a decent DSLR and lenses but absolutely no clue when it comes to taking photos, especially of aquariums so I tend to just use the phone as it is all around easier.

I think maybe having a video and a picture could help, doesn't have to be a long vid, just a quick view of the entire scape/tank.


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## Geoffrey Rea (16 Nov 2020)

Wolf6 said:


> Tbh just getting tips on how to improve would be the best win for someone like me, regardles of rank



That’s the sort of spirit that this comp idea could ideally be about, for everyone really, no one is beyond learning from others regardless of how skilled they are. Suspect if it got traction it would be quite demonstrative of how to generally prepare/run a clean tank as a by product, rather than dealing with algae queries one thread at a time. Wee bit more efficient manner of getting good practice across with actual evidence at the end of the methods working.

Despite the many comments across many threads suggesting a UKAPS comp annually, would hazard a guess there’s far more opposition to this idea than is reflected in the voting so far.

On the flip side of the coin... Is this something UKAPS want the community to be identified with? What incentive do UKAPS have to handle yet another thing? Could it be monetised to the benefit of UKAPS funding? Would it bring in further membership or hinder it?


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## Karmicnull (16 Nov 2020)

Would it be worth having a single competition with an overall winner but also prizes for each category?  A bit like Crufts.  Obviously I'd like one of the categories to be Clueless Noob.


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## Geoffrey Rea (16 Nov 2020)

Karmicnull said:


> Would it be worth having a single competition with an overall winner but also prizes for each category?



Given all this is a hypothetical, why not @Karmicnull




Karmicnull said:


> Obviously I'd like one of the categories to be Clueless Noob.



You’re not alone. Perusing other forums a scaping contest for newcomers to aquascaping seems a popular idea. Someone is going to do it sooner or later, may or may not be UKAPS though.


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## LondonDragon (18 Nov 2020)

We can always send @George Farmer around everyone's house to take the photo/video!!  that will standardize it


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## Geoffrey Rea (18 Nov 2020)

LondonDragon said:


> We can always send @George Farmer around everyone's house to take the photo/video!!  that will standardize it



George protests and says no, it will drive up his yearly transport costs.

UKAPS solution to the problem:


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## LondonDragon (18 Nov 2020)

Rule 1 - Grow more plants, add more hardscape and/or add more fish, do not copy and paste them!


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## Geoffrey Rea (18 Nov 2020)

Oooo... Feel a Fight Club vibe coming on...

Rule 2 - We do not talk about photoshop!

“To know Mother Nature is to not photoshop her smallest creations”


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## George Farmer (19 Nov 2020)

Seriously I would love to visit the best aquascapes in person!


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## glasscanvasart (19 Nov 2020)

When creating categories or calling the competition a 'Nature Aquarium' contest, you now must come up with satisfactory definitions. I'm not fond of categories for beginners or other cases, but you could get around defining 'Nature Aquariums', by creating and adhering to judging criteria designed to favour prominent features of 'Nature Aquariums' and I believe this is what Tim has suggested. If UKAPS were to host a competition I would suggest not to create categories, as this forum has limited reach and there are already successful niche competitions such as for biotopes. 

As a substitute to a competition, UKAPS could have a series a ToTM (tank of the month or at any other interval). This is popular on reefing forums and has the benefits of not requiring judging panel as members vote for their favourite aquarium and is more focused on sharing advice.


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## Geoffrey Rea (19 Nov 2020)

George Farmer said:


> Seriously I would love to visit the best aquascapes in person!



Good man George 😎


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## Geoffrey Rea (19 Nov 2020)

glasscanvasart said:


> As a substitute to a competition, UKAPS could have a series a ToTM (tank of the month or at any other interval). This is popular on reefing forums and has the benefits of not requiring judging panel as members vote for their favourite aquarium and is more focused on sharing advice.



Why not have both?


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## Tim Harrison (19 Nov 2020)

There's no reason why not


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## dw1305 (19 Nov 2020)

Hi all, 


glasscanvasart said:


> UKAPS could have a series a ToTM (tank of the month or at any other interval).


I'm not keen on the idea of aquascaping as a contest, but I am liking the sound  of this. 

My rationale would be more  contests could mean that you could have one month for non-aquascaped tanks, a bit like the mongrel section at Crufts, rhythm-less celebrity on "Strictly Come Dancing" or the Turner Prize. 

Personally I've already spent many years (and many iterations) perfecting curating my aquascaped interpretation of Tracey Emin's "My (unmade) bed" and <"the final photograph of it">.

cheers Darrel


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## Tim Harrison (19 Nov 2020)

dw1305 said:


> my aquascaped interpretation of Tracey Emin's "My (unmade) bed"


Minus the skid marks...


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## Siege (19 Nov 2020)

Tim Harrison said:


> Minus the skid marks...



And the used condoms Tim.......,

Don’t thing that pic would have made it into the Tropica 50th anniversary book......!!!!!!😂


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## Kezzab (19 Nov 2020)

Siege said:


> And the used condoms Tim.......,
> 
> Don’t thing that pic would have made it into the Tropica 50th anniversary book......!!!!!!😂


Title: Dogging vista


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## Geoffrey Rea (19 Nov 2020)

Dogging and used condoms aside (never, ever, ever thought I would start a comment on here like that 😂)...

Where is the divide between folks who will demonstrate the aptitude and attitude that determines the altitude that’s required to enter the IAPLC/EAPLC and those that can’t? Trick question; there are no prior requirements to enter.

But it does demand a broad set of skills which most people don’t currently have on their own for whatever reason. With a bias toward a community spirit, reckon you could upskill a lot of folk with a more friendly attitude and organised communication regarding the required skill sets. This argument sits aside from whether you value aquascaping as a ‘thing’ or not, by having a following ‘it’ is.

Personally, I like Josh Sim’s attitude towards his first and second scape. According to Josh, that improvement happened being part of a small self selecting group with the sole purpose of improving through a healthy amount of competition. Get that certain folks are against the idea of competition in something like aquascaping. However, those that see how rivalry generally up’s your game, your motivation and time investment... it’s a largely positive experience. It drives results that wouldn’t have happened otherwise. It also introduces a deadline for the procrastinators amongst us which is not to be overlooked. There’s the ‘best’ aquascape you can produce and there’s the one that is ready on time. Don’t let the best become the enemy of the good, there’s always another chance next time around. This is a process.

The entirety of the ‘categories’ and ‘rules’ argument can be put to bed simply by adopting EAPLC rules if that is possible without legal repercussions, if you discount biotope’s. It at least sorts the annual comp side of this discussion with minimum effort unless someone fancies a rather long and arduous period of argumentation, an argument that will ultimately only end up in a disorganised jumble of people’s biases and preferences. The existing rules of the EAPLC allow for creativity whilst coercing a general sense of order that doesn’t stifle creativity... if it ain’t broke there’s nothing to fix. The only side of the hobby that would require a category with its own unique judgements would be biotope, the judges would require detailed knowledge of what they represent for comparison.

@glasscanvasart ’s suggestion of Tank of The Month is brilliant in that it’s decided by community opinion, easy and cheap to implement, facilitates further discussion about why people find it justified and is inclusive to as broad amount of people as possible. It isn’t mutually exclusive to the idea of a well thought out UK based competition though.

Time for a reality check based on the current status of the poll:

35 yes
1 no
3 maybe

Playing devils advocate... You ain’t got a competition so far folks. It’s a house party at best. There’s still plenty of ground left in order to figure out what people want. Also waiting to hear back on how this whole endeavour would benefit UKAPS funding? Something we all share a vested interest in for the future and ultimately incentivises the forum to even consider hosting such an event. Incentive works both ways and feel this point needs underlining for it to be a realistic prospect.

On the plus side, the human catapult idea can now be disbanded 😂


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## rebel (19 Nov 2020)

Dioramas or go home.   

Just kidding; I vote for scapes with no living plants!


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## rebel (19 Nov 2020)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> According to Josh, that improvement happened being part of a small self selecting group with the sole purpose of improving through a healthy amount of competition.


Just like playing an instrument, to improve, you have to practice. No difference when it comes to scaping. 10000 hours and you are on your way to mastery. Goal oriented practice (for example by the TAU) is the fastest way to improve.


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## LondonDragon (20 Nov 2020)

George Farmer said:


> Seriously I would love to visit the best aquascapes in person!


That's why I mentioned it  always up for a road trip and some footage for the channel


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## Tim Harrison (20 Nov 2020)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> Dogging and used condoms aside (never, ever, ever thought I would start a comment on here like that 😂)...
> 
> Where is the divide between folks who will demonstrate the aptitude and attitude that determines the altitude that’s required to enter the IAPLC/EAPLC and those that can’t? Trick question; there are no prior requirements to enter.
> 
> ...



We know that a lot of the top scoring scapes come form Southeast Asia. From what I can gather scaping is a very popular pastime there and many scapers are members of clubs which foster hands on sharing of skills and knowledge, including the unique set needed to do well in competitions.

I'm not sure we have enough interest here in the UK to form such clubs. But it could be something folks might want to think about after this Covid business is over with; most of us don't mind revealing our location or travelling. And if any such regional clubs do form I'm sure we can host them on the forum.

A competition scaping forum might be a possibility where more experienced scapers share knowledge and offer constructive criticism. But it's difficult when competitions don't allow images of scapes to be published beforehand. And most experienced competition scapers don't often frequent forums. But we might be able to invite guest scapers to comment.

However, we were trying to arrange a UKAPS meet up at AG over the summer with a BBQ and scaping competition etc, but again Covid put paid to that. We thought if it was successful we could arrange meets more frequently, maybe biannually or even quarterly. Something we can pick up again later, hopefully in the not too distant future.

I guess the EAPLC judging criteria could work with different categories for Nature Aquarium, and Diorama. But we'd need a more detailed breakdown of the (95%) points available for overall impression; it's a bit of a blunt instrument without.

Scape of the month is a great idea too. It's as good as a done deal. With regards to funding, the forum is kind of run on a shoestring and donations are always gladly received and new fund raising ideas are always welcome. But it tends to get overly complicated if we start to charge folk for entering competitions and the like, especially since there are more senior comps out there which are free to enter, for instance.

But members can make one off or regular monthly donations, it's easy to do, just click on the yellow "Donate" button, righthand side of the Forums page under Members online 

Perhaps the best we can hope for is an ever increasing and ever more active membership and more sponsors who are also willing to donate prizes, like Dave at AG. UKAPS is definitely headed in the right direction. It's a testament to the friendly nature, enthusiasm, and amazing knowledge of our members that UKAPS is still thriving when most other similar forums have bitten the dust.


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## dw1305 (20 Nov 2020)

Hi all,


rebel said:


> I vote for scapes with no living plants!


<"Mariele Neudecker"> is the scaper for you.


Geoffrey Rea said:


> Get that certain folks are against the idea of competition in something like aquascaping.


All joking apart I enjoy looking at other peoples competition tanks, and I always look through the IAPLC photos etc. 

cheers Darrel


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## Wookii (20 Nov 2020)

Tim Harrison said:


> Minus the skid marks...





Siege said:


> And the used condoms Tim.......,





Kezzab said:


> Title: Dogging vista



I turn my back for half a day . . . 😂



Geoffrey Rea said:


> Where is the divide between folks who will demonstrate the aptitude and attitude that determines the altitude that’s required to enter the IAPLC/EAPLC and those that can’t? Trick question; there are no prior requirements to enter.
> 
> But it does demand a broad set of skills which most people don’t currently have on their own for whatever reason. With a bias toward a community spirit, reckon you could upskill a lot of folk with a more friendly attitude and organised communication regarding the required skill sets. This argument sits aside from whether you value aquascaping as a ‘thing’ or not, by having a following ‘it’ is.



This for me is the essence of this forum - the supporting community spirit in creating an aquatic habitat whatever form that takes, and the ongoing aftercare required to look after it and develop it, and everything involved there in . Aquascaping is always a 'thing' for anyone setting up an aquarium. Everyone wants a nicely laid out tank that is pleasant to look at, even if they have no direct interest in competitions, or even want to apply the lofty label of 'aquascape' to their 'fish tank' - so the dissemination of many of the skills you refer to will always be useful and transferrable to anyone setting up a new aquarium no matter the form it might take.



Geoffrey Rea said:


> Personally, I like Josh Sim’s attitude towards his first and second scape. According to Josh, that improvement happened being part of a small self selecting group with the sole purpose of improving through a healthy amount of competition. Get that certain folks are against the idea of competition in something like aquascaping. However, those that see how rivalry generally up’s your game, your motivation and time investment... it’s a largely positive experience. It drives results that wouldn’t have happened otherwise. It also introduces a deadline for the procrastinators amongst us which is not to be overlooked. There’s the ‘best’ aquascape you can produce and there’s the one that is ready on time. Don’t let the best become the enemy of the good, there’s always another chance next time around. This is a process.
> 
> The entirety of the ‘categories’ and ‘rules’ argument can be put to bed simply by adopting EAPLC rules if that is possible without legal repercussions, if you discount biotope’s. It at least sorts the annual comp side of this discussion with minimum effort unless someone fancies a rather long and arduous period of argumentation, an argument that will ultimately only end up in a disorganised jumble of people’s biases and preferences. The existing rules of the EAPLC allow for creativity whilst coercing a general sense of order that doesn’t stifle creativity... if it ain’t broke there’s nothing to fix.



Seems like a good place to start - I'm not familiar with the EAPLC scoring criteria, I'll have to look it up, but do they stick to it more rigidly than IAPLC do theirs?



Geoffrey Rea said:


> The only side of the hobby that would require a category with its own unique judgements would be biotope, the judges would require detailed knowledge of what they represent for comparison.



I don't think we can afford to be so rigid in such a small community, otherwise I don't think you would end up with a single entry under a Biotope section. That's why I overemphasized the term 'Style' in my previous categories suggestion. For me, as I peruse the journals section of this forum, there are many tanks that follow the Nature Aquarium 'style' - and by that I mean the heavily planted, neatly curated layouts we usually associate with Amano, commonly high tech with CO2 injection etc. Whilst we refer to them as a Nature Aquarium, I think we all accept they are not trying to recreate a true aquatic habit but more a naturalistic underwater garden.

However there are other aquarium journals that go for a much more wild style, something you might more reasonably expect to see on a river or lake snorkelling session. There are some great scapes that, for me, fall within this section, particularly on the low tech side and blackwater set-ups etc. They might not be heavily planted enough to score highly in a 'Nature Aquarium' section, but are equally great tanks that might do well in a Biotope 'Style' section, without being rigid Biotopes in the true definition. Perhaps we need a different word to 'Biotope', perhaps 'Wild style'? Ultimately we don't want to be excluding such tanks because they have certain plants or fish from differing geographical locations, nor do we want to be excluding them because they don't line up exactly with what we usually see in a Nature Aquarium style layout.



Geoffrey Rea said:


> Time for a reality check based on the current status of the poll:
> 
> 35 yes
> 1 no
> ...



. . . and they're just the people that think a competition is a good idea, not necessarily the number of people who might consider submitting an entry! I'd wager if you asked those 35 people if they planned to enter, the resulting total would be less than half.




Geoffrey Rea said:


> Also waiting to hear back on how this whole endeavour would benefit UKAPS funding?



Sponsorship and advertising revenue seems the obvious option here. The likes of Oase and Twinstar seem more than happy to sponsor YouTubers, surely they'd be tripping over themselves to have their name associated with a national UK Aquascaping competition. If you can get coverage in the national fishkeeping press for it also, it would likely draw more users here as a side bonus; a larger user base leads to more sponsors and donations etc.

Obviously all that requires a huge effort and input from the volunteers who run this forum, so I don't want to presume that it would be an easy ask of those folks.



Geoffrey Rea said:


> On the plus side, the human catapult idea can now be disbanded 😂



Dammit - that would have been @George Farmer's highest view YouTube addition to date, particularly if you could have landed him directly into an EA1200! 😂


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## Kezzab (20 Nov 2020)

Good discussion. For my tuppence worth, I think we could keep our ambition in check a bit and think of this more as a club competition, not an 'open' or 'national' competition. Premier League comps already exist, this could be more National League 2 - a training ground so more people feel inclined to have a go at the big'uns.

The idea of getting a pro/experienced comp scaper to provide proper, detailed, feedback is great, and would be prize enough really. And it might be doable given there'd probably be no more than 50 entries to judge. Not much in it for them maybe, but you never know.

I saw some pics from a local asian comp recently, maybe 40 entries. Some were great, some were valiant but failed efforts and some were not good at all. But they'll all have learned from it. I think that's a good goal.


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## Geoffrey Rea (20 Nov 2020)

Kezzab said:


> The idea of getting a pro/experienced comp scaper to provide proper, detailed, feedback is great, and would be prize enough really. And it might be doable given there'd probably be no more than 50 entries to judge. Not much in it for them maybe, but you never know.



“Wooo-eeee... You’re gonna sing like a canary!!”


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## Geoffrey Rea (20 Nov 2020)

Wookii said:


> . . . and they're just the people that think a competition is a good idea, not necessarily the number of people who might consider submitting an entry! I'd wager if you asked those 35 people if they planned to enter, the resulting total would be less than half.






Kezzab said:


> I saw some pics from a local asian comp recently, maybe 40 entries. Some were great, some were valiant but failed efforts and some were not good at all. But they'll all have learned from it. I think that's a good goal.



There’s contradiction between the above posts. On one hand, small numbers are viewed as a problem. On the other, a small group of 40 people, of varying skill levels, all competing and learning together is viewed as valuable.

Optimistic that even with small numbers there can be large benefits in a cooperative learning model.



Kezzab said:


> The idea of getting a pro/experienced comp scaper to provide proper, detailed, feedback is great






Kezzab said:


> Not much in it for them maybe, but you never know.



Therein lies the rub. Why would they freely give away their knowledge and expertise for no return? I think the teacher/student model would have a very limited run, unless it’s as you proposed, they provide commentary on the end results.




Tim Harrison said:


> Scape of the month is a great idea too. It's as good as a done deal.



Is this speculation Tim or has it been given the green light?


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## Wookii (20 Nov 2020)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> There’s contradiction between the above posts. On one hand, small numbers are viewed as a problem. On the other, a small group of 40 people, of varying skill levels, all competing and learning together is viewed as valuable.
> 
> Optimistic that even with small numbers there can be large benefits in a cooperative learning model.


I don’t really see a contradiction Geoff. It just depends where you want to draw the lines. 40 people is plenty for a competition - 17, not so much?


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## Kezzab (20 Nov 2020)

I think im right on saying there were a few more people that entered the hardscape comp than said they would in the original poll.


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## Geoffrey Rea (20 Nov 2020)

Kezzab said:


> I think im right on saying there were a few more people that entered the hardscape comp than said they would in the original poll.



Yep. Final figures when polling shut:





Everyone already knows the entry levels despite the polling.



Wookii said:


> 40 people is plenty for a competition - 17, not so much?



Couldn’t say @Wookii . Depends on whether this is a one off, or is being pushed as an annual thing or something else. UKAPS has already run hardscape challenges in 2016 and 2020. Given the lack of mod activity on this thread it’s highly probable people wish I would just shut the hell up about it 😂

Started this poll for two reasons:

- Firstly, there’s an endless commentary across time about the faults with current competition rules; it’s confused, dioramas don’t belong, the scoring criteria doesn’t add up etc. It creates an opportunity to envisage a different, more robust competition with a clear purpose.

- Second, personally going into the comp realm for 2021 with back to back scapes I can see the downsides to it. The journal has had to come down to obey the competition rules, there’s no means of sharing all the learnings about design, maintenance, lighting, photography and final shot without a personal cost, it drives you away from sharing experiences solely for the benefit of the competition organiser.

Could be way off the mark here on many things. But one take away from talking to others who are going for entries this coming year there is one thing that sucks: being unable to share/having to be secretive.




Tim Harrison said:


> A competition scaping forum might be a possibility where more experienced scapers share knowledge and offer constructive criticism. But it's difficult when competitions don't allow images of scapes to be published beforehand. And most experienced competition scapers don't often frequent forums.



I’ve come to the conclusion that the reason competition scapers don’t often frequent forums is by design. Change the design, change the outcome.


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## Tim Harrison (20 Nov 2020)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> Is this speculation Tim or has it been given the green light?


Pretty much a bright green light


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## Geoffrey Rea (20 Nov 2020)

That’s good news Tim, a solid result.

As for a reply to the retracted comment, it’s all to play for, nothing is written in stone. Just have to find a more benevolent means of appealing to our lesser demons.

Gonna bow out moving forward.


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## Witcher (20 Nov 2020)

What about plant layout growth contest? There are so many competitions depending on how we can layout the plants etc. (which I personally think is bizarre), but I doubt if there is any competition relaying on plants led to perfection in terms of growth, shape and other things. And this is what could make this competition very unique.

I mean competition not depending on plants you can buy, quickly lay out, make a photo shoot and torn them down, but the competition really depending on the plants growth (and grower skills) in relatively long (or short) period of time. No space for cheating here (and cheating seems to be quite common nowadays).


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## Tim Harrison (21 Nov 2020)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> Gonna bow out moving forward.


You don't have to, in fact we'd prefer it if you didn't, we're going to need your help


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## Geoffrey Rea (21 Nov 2020)

Think there’s a good home for this idea in the hands of UKAPS. It would be cared for by folks who all care about their community.


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## PARAGUAY (22 Nov 2020)

Tim Harrison said:


> You don't have to, in fact we'd prefer it if you didn't, we're going to need your help


Now a good time to tell him Tim hes been chosen to go around check no ones cheating🙂


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## Geoffrey Rea (25 Nov 2020)

Alright, encore...



PARAGUAY said:


> Now a good time to tell him Tim hes been chosen to go around check no ones cheating🙂



No need. The whole community would be viewing the works as photoshop detectives... so good luck getting that one passed everyone given recent events 😂 


Tank of the month tilts its hat to every conceivable area of the hobby and should be community voted for in theory. Gives everyone a chance to delve into other areas of the hobby they might not have otherwise come into contact with. Something different every month.




Kezzab said:


> The idea of getting a pro/experienced comp scaper to provide proper, detailed, feedback is great, and would be prize enough really. And it might be doable given there'd probably be no more than 50 entries to judge.



Seems even more possible today than yesterday morning @Kezzab

Current voting count:

45 yes
1 no
4 maybe


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