# Anoxic filter



## john arnold (30 Jul 2019)

ok here goes saw this youtube about anoxic filtration and how putting nitrates via fertilisers is stupid as there is plenty in aquarium from waste already, kevin novak is his name he puts cat litter for filter media and seems to be working fine, anyone seen this before, he is some sort of expert dare i say
Anyway what do ya all think


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## john arnold (30 Jul 2019)

Oh he has phd in aquatic microbiology and phd in study of fish so must know his beans


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## Zeus. (30 Jul 2019)

john arnold said:


> he puts cat litter for filter media



Thought about doing that myself, having cat litter with its high Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC) in a filter with high flow does make sense in some ways to buffer the water plus it would make a reasonable surface for bacteria to live, would work better in soft water tanks as the higher H+ ions should help keep the CEC properties cat litter working longer


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## dw1305 (30 Jul 2019)

Hi all, 





john arnold said:


> Oh he has phd in aquatic microbiology and phd in study of fish so must know his beans


We have had a few threads on Dr Novak's biocenosis buckets. Have a look at <"Ammonia Time Bomb Carpet"> (most of the meat is on page 2., but page 1. is worth a read as well.) and also mention of <"MankySanke">.

I think it is a system that works, but not necessarily in the way that Dr Novak thinks it does.

This is a page from <"Dr Novak's blog">, I'm a great believer that _a picture tells a thousand stories, and _this is the picture:




 

and this is the Leaf Colour Chart that scientists use to estimate the nitrogen content of plant leaves.



 

and that, pretty much conclusively, says to me that the vast majority of the fixed nitrogen is ending up as plant tissue, rather than being removed via anoxic denitrification and out-gassing as nitrogen (N2) gas.

cheers Darrel


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## alto (30 Jul 2019)

While he may have post secondary education that is no guarantee that his style of fishkeeping will suit you 

As an example

I’ve lifted MC carpets covering 60% of my aquarium bottom (after over a year) and never seen anything like the debris he’s showcasing in this video 
My initial thoughts
- massive overfeeding
- insufficient water changes 
- improper (or no) vacuuming of the carpet/substrate 
None of which may be “dealbreakers” as long as his fish are healthy and thriving ... but to proclaim this is what happens with all aquarium plant carpets while assuming his own maintenance regime is not a determining factor   

There are other highly educated fish specialists that will argue in favour of water changes 

In another video (where he encourages limited water changes - or perhaps none, I wasn’t willing to watch the entire video library) he states that his plants are healthy and free of algae ... which is not what I see  his plants are OK but definitely not thriving as they might


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## alto (30 Jul 2019)

Zeus. said:


> Thought about doing that myself, having cat litter with its high Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC) in a filter with high flow does make sense in some ways to buffer the water plus it would make a reasonable surface for bacteria to live, would work better in soft water tanks as the higher H+ ions should help keep the CEC properties cat litter working longer


What sort of cat litter are you referring (and Novak as well)?
- locally available is either clumping clays or various assorted paper, corn, pea products (none of which would be suitable)
I struggle to find any unscented cat litter 

I use a clumping clay based litter as it’s the only unscented one available  - even when I considered the ridiculously expensive brands (which promise environmental “friendliness”) - all were scented


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## john arnold (30 Jul 2019)

alto said:


> While he may have post secondary education that is no guarantee that his style of fishkeeping will suit you
> 
> As an example
> 
> ...




Yeah some had holes in and iwas like them plants do not look amazing at all amd the tanks too damn small fir those discus and angel fish, so yeah maybe not the mesiah after all


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## john arnold (30 Jul 2019)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, We have had a few threads on Dr Novak's biocenosis buckets. Have a look at <"Ammonia Time Bomb Carpet"> (most of the meat is on page 2., but page 1. is worth a read as well.) and also mention of <"MankySanke">.
> 
> I think it is a system that works, but not necessarily in the way that Dr Novak thinks it does.
> 
> ...



I had a look and it got far too technical for me but the upshot is no definitive answer again jeez water is very complicated, like my new tank i scaped the monte carlo melted twice second time i increased light intensity and sone is still there also hair grass is not good, all other plants are ok tho, no-one seems to be able to help as too many variables, thsts the way it goes


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## dw1305 (31 Jul 2019)

Hi all, 





john arnold said:


> I had a look and it got far too technical for me


That is why I like to look at the pictures. 

I don't have to <"understand all the technical bits">, just look at the picture. In the picture the Water Lilies (_Nymphaea_), and Water Hyacinth (_Eichornia_),  have really large, deep green, glossy leaves. 

Healthy, dark green glossy leaves mean that the plants have access to plenty of fixed nitrogen and you don't really need to go any further than that. 

Dr Novak can tell you that it is anoxic denitrification is the important process, and that plants are irrelevant, but the photo tells you straight away that isn't true.

cheers Darrel


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## Edvet (31 Jul 2019)

john arnold said:


> Oh he has phd in aquatic microbiology and phd in study of fish so must know his beans


I know a lot of people with a phd in my field who don't know a lot...........................not impressed by titles.


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## Zeus. (31 Jul 2019)

Edvet said:


> I know a lot of people with a phd in my field who don't know a lot...........................not impressed by titles.



Same here


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## Zeus. (31 Jul 2019)

alto said:


> What sort of cat litter are you referring



Well I was only thinking about the pros and cons of using either AS or a suitable Cat Litter to increase the CEC volume of the tank, was in my early days when I had read about why AS works so well in out tanks. Never took it any further.


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## john arnold (31 Jul 2019)

Did someone say they used java moss as carpet, and how did they attach to soil?


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## Edvet (31 Jul 2019)

I had a huge moss carpet in my tank last few months. Problem is all the dust collecting ''under'' it, took it out a few weeks ago, it just lay on the substrate, bottom layer kind of ''suffocates".


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## jms127 (31 Jul 2019)

[QUOTE="
This is a page from <"Dr Novak's blog">, I'm a great believer that _a picture tells a thousand stories, and _this is the picture:
[/QUOTE]

Interesting, in a way this is like a hydroponic system then but where the plants uptake as part of the filtration system. I agree that the plants are more than likely doing most of the heavy lifting, especially when you consider the actual nutrient demands of plants grown in this way. Especially the floating plants, and those not rooted in soil. As an example only, here is a site I found with typical nutrient values required in ppm for hydroponically grown plants. Look away all those in fear of EI!  Explains why my Peace Lilly isn't doing as well as I hoped!
https://www.smart-fertilizer.com/articles/hydroponic-nutrient-solutions


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## dw1305 (2 Aug 2019)

Hi all, 





jms127 said:


> As an example only, here is a site I found with typical nutrient values required in ppm for hydroponically grown plants.


Those look about right. 

You can actually manipulate the composition, yield and flavour of Tomatoes by changing the nutrient level and salinity of the <"growing solution">.  The "10" value quoted in the linked paper is milli-Siemens, so 10,000 microS.

You can also see the difference between Strawberries and the other crops in the link. It is back to the <"orchids and bromeliads"> analogy. 

You can find even <"higher nutrient levels"> where people are using floating plants (mainly <"_Eichornia">_ and _Pistia_) for <"phytoremediation"> of animal effluents or  sewage. 

_Eichornia crassipes & Pistia_ are also used for bio-gas production, and my guess would be that if people become more interested in that side of it, rather than the phytoremediation, that we might found that their optimal growth rate (<"under bright illumination">) is in very nutrient rich solutions.

cheers Darrel


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