# Making biochar root tabs infused with urea ++



## Hanuman (14 Nov 2022)

I'm on a quest to making root tab clones of the APT Jazz root tabs. Why you ask? Simple, because I want to and because I need to find something to do in my boring life 
I might be wrong but APT Jazz seems like biochar infused root tabs so maybe I'll fail, but we will all learn.
So I can find bamboo biochar, easy, and I have a stash of urea + other compound laying around that need to be used before I die.
So, the question is, how would you go about and infuse the biochar with those ferts? I was thinking of preparing a really concentrated solution of urea + potassium monophosphate + potassium chloride (or sulfate) and dump the biochar in there for a good several hours to make sure it's fully saturated. I have no clue if this is the proper way of doing it or if it would even work so I thought I would ask before starting this silly experiment and to see what the community has to say about it.

Roger, over and out.


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## AlecF (14 Nov 2022)

I like any recipe that says 'leave overnight'.


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## Yugang (14 Nov 2022)

Hanuman said:


> I'm on a quest to making root tab clones of the APT Jazz root tabs. Why you ask? Simple, because I want and because I need to find something to do in my boring life
> I might be wrong but APT Jazz seems like biochar infused root tabs so maybe I'll fail, but we will all learn.
> So I can find bamboo biochar, easy, and have a stash of urea + other compound around laying around that need to be used before I die.
> So, the question is, how would you go about and infuse the biochar with those ferts? I was thinking of preparing a really concentrated solution of urea + potassium monophosphate + potassium chloride (or sulfate) and dump the biochar in there for a good several hours to make sure it's fully saturated. I have no clue if this is the proper way of doing it or if it would even work so I thought I would ask before starting this silly experiment and to see what the community has to say about it.
> ...


Test various approaches, I would take more time than 'several hours'. Dump your 'prototypes' in distilled water, and use a TDS meter to see how fast, and how much, they release your nutrients. Best one wins 

EDIT: I am actually planning to test my osmocote with this method, bought some distilled water and just want to have a feel how much and over what time they will release.


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## PARAGUAY (14 Nov 2022)

Just trying to get my head around you live a boring life😂


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## Hanuman (14 Nov 2022)

Yugang said:


> Test various approaches, use your imagination and don't think too long. Dump your 'prototypes' in distilled water, and use a TDS meter to see how fast, and how much, they release your nutrients. Best one wins.


Too scientific for me. I need this thing to work yesterday and be 120% effective. 🤣 - joking of course but I rather spend time reading what you guys have to say first on the subject before I spend 3 weeks testing what might be bound to fail. I'm doing a scape in a few weeks so still have some time for some testing of course.



PARAGUAY said:


> Just trying to get my head around you live a boring life😂


Living in the tropics doesn't mean it's summer holiday all year round. We do get bored having to drink coconut all the time. 😜


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## Yugang (14 Nov 2022)

Hanuman said:


> I need this thing to work yesterday and be 120% effective.


It's called EI dosing 

I am not a fan of root tabs. I added some osmocote to a struggling Amazon sword yesterday, but that is for me an exception. I can't take root tabs out once they're in, I can't adjust the dosing, I don't actually know what I am dosing, and many of my stem plants will be replanted before they developed a decent root system.

I like your experiment, it's fun. But even if you can make your DIY tabs it seems to me that you have a big uncertainty how much of each nutrient gets absorbed and you are therefore not sure what you are adding to your tank. Is this a risk worth taking?


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## Hanuman (14 Nov 2022)

Yugang said:


> But even if you can make your DIY tabs it seems to me that you have a big uncertainty how much of each nutrient gets absorbed and you are therefore not sure what you are adding to your tank. Is this a risk worth taking?


Well think about it for a second, we can  add osmocote to the substrate with no ill consequences if applied correctly, osmocote being pure un-watered down fertilizer in powered form to the roots. Biochar infused with macros would be a pale comparison to that.


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## Yugang (14 Nov 2022)

Hanuman said:


> Well think about it for a second, we can  add osmocote to the substrate with no ill consequences if applied correctly, osmocote being pure un-watered down fertilizer in powered form to the roots. Biochar infused with macros would be a pale comparison to that.


I used 8 grains of Osmocote equivalent, under a newly planted amazon Sword that seems to struggle to convert and take off. To see if it helps.

I am aware that there are various views on root tabs, aquasoils and various fancy expensive powders, and as usual everyone is right. One may  speculate if it is a coincidence that fertilisation approaches, or in fact blue prints for planted tank keeping, that emphasise the soil are commercially more attractive than dosing cheap commodity salts to the water column.


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## JoshP12 (14 Nov 2022)

I can’t help but giggle as I larded about half a bottle of miracle gro into my substrate without batting an eye.

Had to look up bio char.

Why not just put a layer of biochar in the bottom of the tank (ps I wish I had this stuff), then add your solution on top, then cap it with aquasoil?

Not saying much but your approach @Hanuman  is exactly what I would do.

And put some micro too. And maybe vinegar for acid?


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## Yugang (14 Nov 2022)

JoshP12 said:


> I can’t help but giggle as I larded about half a bottle of miracle gro into my substrate without batting an eye.
> 
> Had to look up bio char.
> 
> ...


That sounds great!
Has your tank cleared up yet? (just joking, love your approach @JoshP12 and I am the biggest fan of your journal)


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## JoshP12 (14 Nov 2022)

Yugang said:


> That sounds great!
> Has your tank cleared up yet? (just joking, love your approach @JoshP12 and I am the biggest fan of your journal)


🤣

Haha … nope … well…  Kind of


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## Hanuman (14 Nov 2022)

JoshP12 said:


> I can’t help but giggle as I larded about half a bottle of miracle gro into my substrate without batting an eye.


Yeah you were a bit heavy handed on that one. 


JoshP12 said:


> Why not just put a layer of biochar in the bottom of the tank (ps I wish I had this stuff), then add your solution on top, then cap it with aquasoil?


That would be too much and all the liquid fert would definitely leach in the water. I already have some old aquasoil. Just want to refresh it a bit with some slow release. I don't intent to grow some godzilla plant just plain old grass. This said I want to see if I can use this infused biochar in some future scape with more demanding plants. I really hate the osmocote colored prills. Bio char looks more natural and will blend better with the soil.


JoshP12 said:


> And put some micro too. And maybe vinegar for acid?


Yes was thinking that as well. Perhaps some bamboo vinegar and the cherry on the cake some humic acid.


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## Yugang (14 Nov 2022)

How about a crazy idea?

What about a long perforated thin tube (like CO2 tube) that we would arrange underneath the soil, bottom of the tank, just like the floor heating systems in our home? A dosing pump to continuously inject a tiny flow of water, nearly as a diffusion, with ferts into that?


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## Hanuman (14 Nov 2022)

Yugang said:


> I am aware that there are various views on root tabs, aquasoils and various fancy expensive powders, and as usual everyone is right. One may speculate if it is a coincidence that fertilisation approaches, or in fact blue prints for planted tank keeping, that emphasise the soil are commercially more attractive than dosing cheap commodity salts to the water column.


My point was that there is no way that some infused biochar can be more potent that just adding plain osmocote, which by the way, being underwater is probably not as slow release as we think.


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## Hanuman (14 Nov 2022)

Yugang said:


> How about a crazy idea?
> 
> What about a long perforated thin tube (like CO2 tube) that we would arrange underneath the soil, bottom of the tank, just like the floor heating systems in our home? A dosing pump to continuously inject a tiny flow of water, nearly as a diffusion, with ferts into that?
> 
> View attachment 197748


I think in that case simply using an under gravel filter would do the same and would probably be more beneficial generally speaking.


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## dw1305 (14 Nov 2022)

Hi all,


Hanuman said:


> This said I want to see if I can use this infused biochar in some future scape with more demanding plants. I really hate the osmocote colored prills. Bio char looks more natural and will blend better with the soil.


It should work OK and the <"biochar"> will retain some CEC <"Cation exchange capacity of biochar: An urgent method modification">.  Unless you have very soft water? I might try acid washing the biochar first, just to reduce the pH <"Combined Use of Charcoal, Sago Bark Ash, and Urea Mitigate Soil Acidity and Aluminium Toxicity">.


Hanuman said:


> My point was that there is no way that some infused biochar can be more potent that just adding plain osmocote, which by the way, being underwater is probably not as slow release as we think.


That is always be <"my worry"> with "Osmocote" <"My unfortunate vacation experience and "who dun it"">  (or any other controlled release fertiliser (CRF)), basically <"uncontrolled release">.  

It could still be an issue with biochar, but urea would be much safer starting point, compared to  the potential ammonia release from  Osmocote.

cheers Darrel


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## Yugang (14 Nov 2022)

Hanuman said:


> I think in that case simply using an under gravel filter would do the same and would probably be more beneficial generally speaking.


That's a good idea, use the bottom plate of an under gravel filter. But we cannot use it in the usual way, no flow from the tank into the substrate and filter. Use the dosing pump to inject  a little fertilised water underneath the undergravel filter, that then slowly makes its way up into the soil and fertilises the roots.

Thinking about it - just buy a PVC sheet, cut it exactly the size of the tank. Drill many small holes in it. Spacers (1-2 mm) on the bottom of the tank, that won't damage the glass, and place the perforated sheet on top of these spacers. Inject the fertilised water underneath the sheet with a dosing pump. Slowly the fertilised water will make it through the holes into the substrate

Apologize @Hanuman , will stop hijacking this thread.


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## Hanuman (15 Nov 2022)

Yugang said:


> use the bottom plate of an under gravel filter. But we cannot use it in the usual way, no flow from the tank into the substrate and filter. Use the dosing pump to inject a little fertilised water underneath the undergravel filter, that then slowly makes its way up into the soil and fertilises the roots.


That's exactly what an undergravel filter does. There would be no need for fertilizer to be injected specifically in the substrate. An UGF moves water from the water colum through the substrate and then back up through the lift tube. Adding ferts to the water normally would be enough as it will pass through the substrate anyway.


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## Yugang (15 Nov 2022)

Hanuman said:


> That's exactly what an undergravel filter does. There would be no need for fertilizer to be injected specifically in the substrate. An UGF moves water from the water colum through the substrate and then back up through the lift tube. Adding ferts to the water normally would be enough as it will pass through the substrate anyway.


I get your point, but as you are well aware the use of undergravel filters is not undisputed. I would personally never use it. So that's why I would only use a dosing pump, to have more of a 'diffusion' rather than a 'flow' (and indeed in the opposite direction) to keep the soil/root processes as undisturbed as possible. But you may still be right, who knows.

-- And of course you expect the dosing underneath the soil to be higher ppm than the dosing ppm in the water column, to make up for the slow diffusion process in the soil. That in some way is intended to mimic a powdered soil fertiliser or root tab, but it is delivered continuously, adaptive, and with inexpensive salts.


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## Yugang (15 Nov 2022)

Figured out what I believe would work best. 

Use a 4 channel peristaltic dosing pump, these are not expensive. Then have 4 small diameter PVC tubes, drill small holes over the full length to create a 'ferts spray bar'. Each of these ferts spray bars connected with a flexible tube to the dosing pump. Push them gently down into the substrate, so that there is no need to rebuild the tank for this. Now we have 4 sectors in the tank, that can be individually optimised with soil nutrient  dosing. This gives better control of what we put into our tank than with any root tab, or branded miracle powder, stable,  without any depletion / degradation over time.


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## FISHnLAB (15 Nov 2022)

Yugang said:


> Figured out what I believe would work best.
> 
> Use a 4 channel peristaltic dosing pump, these are not expensive. Then have 4 small diameter PVC tubes, drill small holes over the full length to create a 'ferts spray bar'. Each of these ferts spray bars connected with a flexible tube to the dosing pump. Push them gently down into the substrate, so that there is no need to rebuild the tank for this. Now we have 4 sectors in the tank, that can be individually optimised with soil nutrient  dosing. This gives better control of what we put into our tank than with any root tab, or branded miracle powder, stable,  without any depletion / degradation over time.


A much simpler method might be to use a high CEC layer under one's Substrate that is periodically topped up with nutrients via a syringe.

This is what I will be testing on my new build(journal in the journal section). I am filling 1mm mesh zippered mesh bags with Aquasoil and topping it with a thick Play Sand cap(2-3inches). I will use a syringe like this to inject a NPK+TE solution instead of using root tabs(root tabs will initially be used in the mesh bags though)...




I will be planning the solution as soon as I am done with the build. I'm thinking of using a thickening agent like gelatin or something maybe but, need to do more research first...


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## plantnoobdude (15 Nov 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> NPK+TE solution


The thing is, CEC is well, just that, _cation exchange capacity. _  it will only bind cations and not anions, meaning NO3 and Po4 will leach quickly into the column. It may be worth adding ammonia (cation) to the substrate via a syringe (In safe column amounts). 

However, though I understand rich substrate is something you want to try, I still hold strongly that the vast majority of plants will grow perfectly fine in an inert substrate. In fact, I haven’t come across a plant that doesn’t grow in sand yet.


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## FISHnLAB (15 Nov 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> The thing is, CEC is well, just that, _cation exchange capacity. _  it will only bind cations and not anions, meaning NO3 and Po4 will leach quickly into the column. It may be worth adding ammonia (cation) to the substrate via a syringe (In safe column amounts).


I would think a 3 inch sand cap would prevent or at least greatly slow leaching and confine the nutrients to the under cap area. This makes sense to me as even non-slow release Root Tabs seam to provide nutes for root intensive plants for a month or more before signs of deficiency. Maybe one day I will do an experiment with two identical tanks.


plantnoobdude said:


> However, though I understand rich substrate is something you want to try, I still hold strongly that the vast majority of plants will grow perfectly fine in an inert substrate. In fact, I haven’t come across a plant that doesn’t grow in sand yet.


Well, rich substrates, like the ADA method, always seam to produce the nicest tanks so I personally think there is merit to root targeted fertilization. Also, it is not labour intensive or costly to provide root ferts in addition to water column so I see only possible negatives to not including it. Even if it only provides 1% better plant health/growth it is worth it to me. I also like that one can target certain plants that are struggling vs blanket dosing the whole tank.

The real question to me is not if a plant will grow in just sand but, if it will grow better(nicer, brighter, lusher, faster, bigger) in sand with a nutrient enriched layer underneath it vs with inert substrate and column fert alone.


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## Hanuman (16 Nov 2022)

All this is nice and sweet, but what about my biochar?


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## Yugang (16 Nov 2022)

Hanuman said:


> All this is nice and sweet, but what about my biochar?


I apologize again @Hanuman , promise to stay on topic from now 

I would suggest to have three jars, one soaking N, the 2 others P and K for a couple of weeks. Then for each do the TDS test with distilled water to have a feeling how much they soaked up and if N, P and K behave in a similar way. Perhaps an elevated temperature would help to speed things up while testing.

That would be my suggestion, with the caveat that I am not competent in Chemistry.


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## Hanuman (27 Nov 2022)

I have some update. Well not really about my project but about the actual product that pushed me to start this project. I recently ordered some plants from Denis and he kindly included some of his new APT Jazz root tab for me to test. First thing before I even stabbed my tank with these tabs was to open up a capsule to examine what was inside. My findings:

There are 2 types of granules in these root tabs. The first one is a fert prill coated with something. I thought it was urea before looking at the sticker but the ingredients stated on the sticker say there is ammonium sulfate. There are also smaller sized grains, which look like biochar but again the sticker on the package indicates there is clay. Considering the color and the texture it's clear to me these grains have been heated. Here are some pics.





Large size granules is the (NH₄)₂SO₄. The smaller black ones seems to be clay.




Here I uncoated the prilled (NH₄)₂SO₄. The coating was fairly easy to remove and quite thin so I have my doubts if this coating is meant to be slow release. In fact I am wondering if the coating is impregnated with traces since Denis says these root tabs have traces. As a comparison, an osmocote ball has a rather hard shell.




Clay grain.



Clay grain crushed.




My 2 cents conclusion. I have the feeling these 2 different sized grains ((NH₄)₂SO₄ + clay ) work synergetically. The clay or whatever that is absorbing the ammonia once in the water and preventing it from being released in excess in the water column.  I think the coating on the prilled ammonia is just a coating impregnated with traces as Denis advertises his root tabs to also contain traces. All this is just an assumption though. Could very well be wrong.


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## Hanuman (1 Dec 2022)

I carried out another test. I added one of the ammonia balls into a small shot glass with a small amount of water. It has been sitting there for 4-5 days. The coating has not deteriorated. I did an ammonia strip test. Bingo we got ~1ppm of ammonia. This suggests these are slow release balls else I would probably read much higher values.








I'm a bit disappointed at these root tabs. Not because they don't work, because they probably do work very well, but because I really wanted this to be some novel technology like biochar 😂


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## FISHnLAB (1 Dec 2022)

So, basically one could achieve a similar product with some cheap osmocote balls, Montmorillonite Clay,  trace powder, and some gelatin capsules? It looks like there is a good chance Dennis is in fact ripping people off then like many assumed. With a price of almost 1 pound per capsule these Root Tabs are by far the biggest rip off in the aquarium root feeding world imo if that is the case.

You should be ashamed Dennis Wong🙄...

Thanks for your work Hanuman👍.


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## Hanuman (1 Dec 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> So, basically one could achieve a similar product with some cheap osmocote balls, Montmorillonite Clay,  trace powder, and some gelatin capsules? It looks like there is a good chance Dennis is in fact ripping people off then like many assumed. With a price of almost 1 pound per capsule these Root Tabs are by far the biggest rip off in the aquarium root feeding world imo if that is the case.
> 
> You should be ashamed Dennis Wong🙄...
> 
> Thanks for your work Hanuman👍.


Well I wouldn't be too quick on shaming Denis. His root tabs are supposedly balanced and also it could be that these slow release coating are specifically designed to be used under water contrary to osmocote. I don't really know, just making assumptions, but he does claim they are designed for aquariums. I do agree with you on one thing though, the price is pretty hefty for what it is. The production cost of each capsule is perhaps sub 10 cents. At the end if there are people willing to buy....
I got them for free so I won't complain but yeah I wouldn't buy them for that price. It's just too expensive IMO. These root tabs have one merit though. Their color blends well with the substrate. I really hated seeing those yellow osmocote balls on my substrate.


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## FISHnLAB (1 Dec 2022)

Hanuman said:


> Well I wouldn't be too quick on shaming Denis. His root tabs are supposedly balanced and also it could be that these slow release coating are specifically designed to be used under water contrary to osmocote. I don't really know, just making assumptions, but he does claim they are designed for aquariums. I do agree with you on one thing though, the price is pretty hefty for what it is. The production cost of each capsule is perhaps sub 10 cents. At the end if there are people willing to buy....
> I got them for free so I won't complain but yeah I wouldn't buy them for that price. It's just too expensive IMO. These root tabs have one merit though. Their color blend well with the substrate. I really hated seeing those yellow osmocote balls on my substrate.


Well, his liquid fert is also super expensive compared to similar high quality options so I already think he is a shiester pretty much. Just my opinion though.

If you look at NilocG, just for instance as it's a similar high end aquarium AIO liquid fert, where I live it is less then half the price per liter vs APT. So, you get 2 liters for less then half the price of 1 liter of APT. That is ridiculous imo and greatly hurts Dennis's credibility. I mean, some of that may be import fees on Singapore vs USA but, that doesn't even come close to justifying the price difference.

Even with Tropica Specialized or Premium you get almost 1500mL for the same price as 1000mL of APT and it has to be shipped from the EU vs Singapore. And, it is already one of the higher priced options on the market.

So, at the end of the day, I personally think Dennis needs to rethink his pricing as all of the guides and pretty pictures on his site, nor some possibly more suitable to aquatic environment osmocote coating, justify his pricing(price gouging imo). All they do is drive customers away and hurt his credibility imo. I'm using his APT 3/E right now(bought a 200mL bottle of each before I knew what I do now) and they will be my last products from him personally. If his pricing was more reasonable I would have bought 2 litres more from him...


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## FISHnLAB (1 Dec 2022)

I do agree their colour blends nicely with dark Substrate though but, so does the blackish/green ones I am currently using from NilocG. They were $24.99CAD for 60 capsules vs $26.90CAD for 18 APT Jazz capsules... 


Now, they don't have fancy osmocote balls in them but, people seam to be happy with them(I can't weigh in yet as I only started using them a couple of months ago at most).


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## FISHnLAB (1 Dec 2022)

So, with all of this said...

When will your new Biochar infused root tabs be available Hanuman? If the price is right I'll try a bottle😁.

Seriously though, thanks for your work on this topic. It has been interesting and informative. Maybe one day someone will do a test of different root tabs in controlled conditions similar to the ones MJ Aquascaping does on YouTube. His one on aquasoil was interesting and somewhat proved Fluval Stratum is better aquasoil then it gets credit for imo.


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## Hanuman (2 Dec 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Well, his liquid fert is also super expensive compared to similar high quality options so I already think he is a shiester pretty much. Just my opinion though.
> 
> If you look at NilocG, just for instance as it's a similar high end aquarium AIO liquid fert, where I live it is less then half the price per liter vs APT. So, you get 2 liters for less then half the price of 1 liter of APT. That is ridiculous imo and greatly hurts Dennis's credibility. I mean, some of that may be import fees on Singapore vs USA but, that doesn't even come close to justifying the price difference.
> 
> ...


I feel you. I guess it has to do with the fact that in SG all is more expensive?, I don't know. In the meantime it just costs me 2.26USD to make my 1L DIY fert, so that's that 😂 - But I know not everyone is inclined to do DIY ferts or they just can't justify buying all the dry salts and hardware because they don't have enough tanks etc. That is understandable.
As I said though if people want to buy at those prices then I guess everyone is happy. Truth it only Denis is in a position to know if it's hurting him or not. My guess though is that his business is doing well, but that's just my opinion. I mean look at ADA, their prices are just insane yet people buy them.



FISHnLAB said:


> I do agree their colour blends nicely with dark Substrate though but, so does the blackish/green ones I am currently using from NilocG.


What color are the balls inside? The capsule itself is irrelevant as it will melt away.



FISHnLAB said:


> They were $24.99CAD for 60 capsules vs $26.90CAD for 18 APT Jazz capsules...


Yeap large difference. Please open that capsule. I'd be interested to know what's in them.



FISHnLAB said:


> When will your new Biochar infused root tabs be available Hanuman? If the price is right I'll try a bottle😁.


 - I'll just post a recipe and leave all the cooking to you all.



FISHnLAB said:


> Maybe one day someone will do a test of different root tabs in controlled conditions similar to the ones MJ Aquascaping does on YouTube.


Honestly I think Denis' root tabs have a lot good points except the price of course. Other than that I'm pretty sure his root tabs would be at the top of the list.


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## dw1305 (2 Dec 2022)

Hi all, 


Hanuman said:


> the clay or whatever that is absorbing the ammonia once in the water and preventing it from being released in excess in the water column.


The ammonium ion (NH4+) is <"quite lightly bound"> (it is a monovalent ion), but you can replace other ions, with NH4+, if <"you add enough of it">. 


> ........ Though the ionic radius of Na+ (97), K+ (133), Ca++ (99), Mg++ (90), Li+ (68) is smaller than NH4+ (143), the ionic radius of hydrated cation of Na+ (300), K+ (450), Ca++ (600), Mg++ (800), Li+ (600) is much higher than NH4+ (250) in pm. Among the ions of same valence, the ion with smallest hydrated radius is preferred. But, in case of ions with different valence the polarization of ion plays important role in preferential adsorption........


That is the weirdest ingredient list, I'm still trying to work out why you would want that chemical composition for any fertiliser.  Ammonium sulphate (NH4)2SO4 would be acidic, which would help keep the TAN as NH4+, but I'm really struggling after that. 

cheers Darrel


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## Freshflora (3 Dec 2022)

Hanuman said:


> I feel you. I guess it has to do with the fact that in SG all is more expensive?, I don't know. In the meantime it just costs me 2.26USD to make my 1L DIY fert, so that's that 😂 - But I know not everyone is inclined to do DIY ferts or they just can't justify buying all the dry salts and hardware because they don't have enough tanks etc. That is understandable.
> As I said though if people want to buy at those prices then I guess everyone is happy. Truth it only Denis is in a position to know if it's hurting him or not. My guess though is that his business is doing well, but that's just my opinion. I mean look at ADA, their prices are just insane yet people buy them.
> 
> 
> ...


The NilocG root tabs are unfortunately just powder inside.  If you have a sand cap then maybe they wouldn’t leech, but otherwise because they also contain just standard potassium nitrate as their no3 source they would just leach no3 into the water column.


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## X3NiTH (4 Dec 2022)

dw1305 said:


> That is the weirdest ingredient list, I'm still trying to work out why you would want that chemical composition for any fertiliser. Ammonium sulphate (NH4)2SO4 would be acidic, which would help keep the TAN as NH4+, but I'm really struggling after that.



I’m going to take a guess that the ingredients list states source compounds and the final product may actually be the precipitate Magnesium Ammonium Phosphate (white interior) coated in traces. Magnesium Ammonium Phosphate is micro-soluble in water, so very slow release of nutrient, acid conditions speed up the release.


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## FISHnLAB (4 Dec 2022)

Hanuman said:


> I feel you. I guess it has to do with the fact that in SG all is more expensive?, I don't know. In the meantime it just costs me 2.26USD to make my 1L DIY fert, so that's that 😂 - But I know not everyone is inclined to do DIY ferts or they just can't justify buying all the dry salts and hardware because they don't have enough tanks etc. That is understandable.


Yep, personally I will probably buy dry salts eventually but, at the same time with my current tanks, it costs me £21 per year to dose a full EI dose daily of NilocG so, it doesn't exactly break the bank lol. In fact, my opinion is its probably not worth getting into dry salts unless one wants another dimension to the hobby or more maintenance work really(or has a severe case of multiple tank syndrome maybe). 


Hanuman said:


> As I said though if people want to buy at those prices then I guess everyone is happy. Truth it only Denis is in a position to know if it's hurting him or not. My guess though is that his business is doing well, but that's just my opinion. I mean look at ADA, their prices are just insane yet people buy them.


I think most people that buy ADA do it for the Prestige of the name. Without Mr. Amano's namesake to exploit, ADA would go out of business pretty quickly I think. They are just like Apple, good at marketing and brainwashing the sheeple...


Hanuman said:


> What color are the balls inside? The capsule itself is irrelevant as it will melt away.


No balls, just powder. Will the coating on the balls not melt away too just slower? 


Hanuman said:


> Yeap large difference. Please open that capsule. I'd be interested to know what's in them.


I believe the ingredients are listed on NilocG's site. They are a powdered mix so no fancy osmocote but, seam to work fine in my limited experience none the less. 


Hanuman said:


> - I'll just post a recipe and leave all the cooking to you all.


Sounds good. You are a great member of the community👍. 


Hanuman said:


> Honestly I think Denis' root tabs have a lot good points except the price of course. Other than that I'm pretty sure his root tabs would be at the top of the list.


I'll believe it when I see the tests😁.


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## FISHnLAB (4 Dec 2022)

Freshflora said:


> The NilocG root tabs are unfortunately just powder inside.  If you have a sand cap then maybe they wouldn’t leech, but otherwise because they also contain just standard potassium nitrate as their no3 source they would just leach no3 into the water column.


I have been using them for at least 2 months in tanks with sand, clay gravel, and aquasoil without issue(no Ammonia or Nitrite detected at all and plants and wildlife thriving) and my gravel tank's Substrate is only 1.5inches deep in places. So, I'm not sure there is any issue with the powder fill other then maybe they potentially don't last as long without the slow release coating(only on part of the contents anyway right). Nilocg says they last 2-3 months I believe but, who knows. Maybe someone who has used them longer knows?


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## dw1305 (4 Dec 2022)

Hi all,


X3NiTH said:


> Magnesium Ammonium Phosphate is micro-soluble in water, so very slow release of nutrient, acid conditions speed up the release.


That would work, but there are only traces of phosphate (PO4---) and even by the time you've taken the <"_quoted as P2O5_"> into account it really is just a trace (~0.25% PO4---).


dw1305 said:


> To convert P2O5 to P you multiply by 0.436.
> 
> If you want to know how much PO4--- that is, it is bit more complicated because you need to know the percentage of P in P2O5 (43.7) and the percentage of P in PO4 (32.6), the divide 43.7/32.6 = 1.34, so 10 mg/L P2O5 = 13.4 mg/L PO4, to go the other way around PO4 to P2O5 its 32.6/43.7 to give you multiply by 0.747.


Same for the magnesium (Mg), quoted as the oxide (MgO), so 0.6% MgO is only ~0.36% Mg++. (24.3/ (24.3 + 16)) =  24.3/40.3 = 0.6 & (0.6 * 0.6) = 0.36. The formula for magnesium ammonium phosphate is (NH4)Mg(PO4).6H2O, so that is 1 : 1 : 1 as a ratio. This means there is a lot of "spare" TAN (NH3 / NH4+) to mop up.

Urea (CO(NH2)2) would be a lot safer, and you could always use another sulphur (S) source to reduce pH.

cheers Darrel


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## Hanuman (4 Dec 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> I believe the ingredients are listed on NilocG's site. They are a powdered mix so no fancy osmocote but, seam to work fine in my limited experience none the less.





> Potassium Nitrate, Potassium Phosphate, Potassium Sulfate, Magnesium Sulfate, Boric Acid, Iron DTPA, Iron EDTA, Ferrous Gluconate, Manganese Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Cobalt Sulfate, Sodium molybdate, Nickel Chloride, Iron Rich Clay, Mineralized Top Soil.


Those are mere dry salts in powder form then. Adding them in a capsule and shoving them in the substrate would definitely leach in the water column in less time it took you to add them. Good things is those salts are safe but I don't really see the point in adding them in a capsule. Adding it in the water column would be virtually the same.


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## FISHnLAB (4 Dec 2022)

Hanuman said:


> Those are mere dry salts in powder form then. Adding them in a capsule and shoving them in the substrate would definitely leach in the water column in less time it took you to add them. Good things is those salts are safe but I don't really see the point in adding them in a capsule. Adding it in the water column would be virtually the same.


I disagree. With a thick sand cap I think they should last quite a while. I personally don't think nutrients leach into the water column though 3 inches of fine to medium sand, just for instance, very fast at all. Considering NilocG recommends refreshing only every 2-3 months, and they probably like to make money, I don't see why they wouldn't recommend more often if they did leach that fast. I have also personally observed left over powder in the Substrate months after using other clay based tabs(API Root Tabs). Now, how much of that is nutrients vs clay or other filler is up in the air but, the clay is a fine powder too and stays put even after dozens and dozens of 80% Water changes. Others have also observed good plant growth in heavy root feeding plants several weeks or even months after adding root tabs with no additional water column dosing. I just really think people underestimate a sand caps ability to isolate what's underneath from the rest of the tank. I mean it even traps gasses...


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## Freshflora (5 Dec 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> I disagree. With a thick sand cap I think they should last quite a while. I personally don't think nutrients leach into the water column though 3 inches of fine to medium sand, just for instance, very fast at all. Considering NilocG recommends refreshing only every 2-3 months, and they probably like to make money, I don't see why they wouldn't recommend more often if they did leach that fast. I have also personally observed left over powder in the Substrate months after using other clay based tabs(API Root Tabs). Now, how much of that is nutrients vs clay or other filler is up in the air but, the clay is a fine powder too and stays put even after dozens and dozens of 80% Water changes. Others have also observed good plant growth in heavy root feeding plants several weeks or even months after adding root tabs with no additional water column dosing. I just really think people underestimate a sand caps ability to isolate what's underneath from the rest of the tank. I mean it even traps gasses...


I agree with everything here.  Vin Kutty took water column measurements with lab equipment in his insanely loaded up substrate with a sand cap and found there was zero leaching.  Also, there are for sure benefits, at least for some plants, to focusing on mainly root feeding at least when it comes to producing the most aesthetically pleasing specimens (such as some lythracae) or growing them successfully in higher KH tap waters.  The NiloCg root tabs just may not be the best option for people without caps like those with pure aquasoil who want to maintain tight control of their dosing parameters because the nitrate is just going to go straight into the water column.


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## plantnoobdude (5 Dec 2022)

Freshflora said:


> I agree with everything here.  Vin Kutty took water column measurements with lab equipment in his insanely loaded up substrate with a sand cap and found there was zero leaching.  Also, there are for sure benefits, at least for some plants, to focusing on mainly root feeding at least when it comes to producing the most aesthetically pleasing specimens (such as some lythracae) or growing them successfully in higher KH tap waters.  The NiloCg root tabs just may not be the best option for people without caps like those with pure aquasoil who want to maintain tight control of their dosing parameters because the nitrate is just going to go straight into the water column.


There is a difference between him putting straight soil, clay and whatnot which will somewhat absorb the nutrients as well. to adding KNO3 powder into sand substrate. And it’s not like he didn’t see leaching either. he had a massive algae bloom from nutrients leaching. I honestly don’t think there’s any benefit to adding KNO3 to substrate especially sand. Maybe K, but usually K is usually plentiful in our collumn anyway.


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## X3NiTH (11 Dec 2022)

dw1305 said:


> That would work, but there are only traces of phosphate (PO4---) and even by the time you've taken the <"_quoted as P2O5_"> into account it really is just a trace (~0.25% PO4---).



I think the intention is not 1:1:1 and entirely MAP but instead forming a conglomeration matrix of MAP that holds the compounds together isolating pockets of Ammonium between the MAP so the release is inhibited. From what I read on Osmocote manufacture it’s the same compounds as the ones discussed here and it’s a precipitative reaction to form the uniform sized granules, drip formed under gravity. I’m going to assume that the substrate to form this precipitation reaction is an alcohol (? IPA/PolyGlycol etc which start to boil at around 50°C ish) and the reaction chamber is being heated so that the prills falling evaporate the alcohol before they hit the bottom otherwise they’ll re-solubilise into a slurry at the bottom of the collection chamber. An aid to the slow release is a dried Linseed oil coating of the prills (the traces I assume will be mixed in this oil). 

I might be wrong but I can’t see both Ammonium Sulphate and Magnesium Nitrate not immediately solubilising entirely once you are through the Linseed Oil slow release coating or if it’s damaged unless they are contained within a precipitate.

The method of manufacture may be why it’s slightly expensive (unless it’s straight up price gouging).


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## dw1305 (11 Dec 2022)

Hi all,


X3NiTH said:


> I think the intention is not 1:1:1 and entirely MAP but instead forming a conglomeration matrix of MAP that holds the compounds together isolating pockets of Ammonium between the MAP so the release is inhibited. ........ I’m going to assume that the substrate to form this precipitation reaction is an alcohol (? IPA/PolyGlycol etc which start to boil at around 50°C ish) and the reaction chamber is being heated so that the prills falling evaporate the alcohol before they hit the bottom otherwise they’ll re-solubilise into a slurry at the bottom of the collection chamber. An aid to the slow release is a dried Linseed oil coating of the prills (the traces I assume will be mixed in this oil)............


I didn't know that, I'll see what else I can find. There has to be a reason.

cheers Darrel


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## X3NiTH (11 Dec 2022)

My reasoning for assuming a precipitate is because I’m reminded by a dry/semi dry precipitation reaction in one of my previous remineralisation mixtures I stored in little baggies for ease of use and the Potassium Phosphate reacted with the Calcium Nitrate (owing to Calcium Nitrate having an affinity to absorb water the compound wasn’t entirely dry, slightly greasy to the touch, in hindsight I should have baked it beforehand) and forming an Apatite like precipitate. The conglomerated mixture formed small round rocks hard as Teeth, at this point I’d assumed the mix was done and unusable but out of curiosity or laziness to weigh out fresh I used a baggy at water change a while back and it took about 3-4 weeks for the Calcium Phosphate rocks (around 5mm diameter) to fully solubilise. Magnesium Sulphate was also in the bag so it may have joined in on the reaction but no Ammonia compounds were present.


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## dw1305 (12 Dec 2022)

Hi all, 


dw1305 said:


> I'll see what else I can find


This is a some controlled release fertiliser bits here <"Controlled-Release Fertilizers in the Production of Container-Grown Floriculture Crops">.


> _.......Controlled-release fertilizers are also called coated or encapsulated fertilizers because the release is controlled by a polymer coating that contains a water-soluble fertilizer. The first coatings were made of sulfur urea. Due to cracks or uneven thickness of the coating, these materials produced irregular results. Today's coatings are made of resins allowing for better control of nutrient release. These modern coatings are made of acrylic resins, polyethylene, waxes and sulfur. The two main families of common resins in use are the alkyd-type resins (e.g., Osmocote) and polyurethane-like coatings (e.g., Polyon, Plantacote and Multicote). The release of nutrients from the prills (the small spheres made of coated fertilizer) is controlled mainly by the thickness of the coating and the temperature.........._



cheers Darrel


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