# ADA 60F iwagumi



## Deano3

Hi all i have been around for  while posting questions and reading other people posts i am finally getting round to mine but will be a long process, i have a ADA 60F and a cabinet i purchased from ikea what is very sturdy and practical for all the bits and bobs and only £35, i plan a iwagumi style with a dwarf hair grass carpet i also want to do dry start as not purchased my co2 equipment yet, i plan on buying the up inline diffuser and a FE setup wil be purchasing when get payed next week, i am going to order plants today to get my setup started i had a few spare hours today so setup my hardscape, i used ADA aqua soil malaya powder as was on offer and mini landscape rocks, here is the setup before i started






img]http://imageshack.us/a/img696/9071/img0424ho.jpg[/img]
then started adding rocks and substrate 
























sorry about reflection, what do you think of the rock scape any opions welcome i really like the large rock as a little cavern underneath lol i still have many questions but will ask as i go, do you think the depth of the substrate is ok, on the right hand side of the tank were it opens up i plan on doing a dwarf hair grass carpet still not sure how many pots to order also what plant would you recomend for the rear of tank maybe one a little taller, and when i do dry start i will lower the light and fill with water to the substrate level then mist every day and wrap in cling film does that sound ok

any comments welcome
thanks for looking
Dean


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## Richard Dowling

I am in a very similar position to you in that I have been here browsing for quite a while and asking questions. I am about to be begin a very similar setup to yours.

I am by no means an expert but I like your scape so far. Personally I think it may need one or two small rocks in front of the one on the right hand side to try and make that "pathway" between the two sets of rocks smaller. Thats just my initial feel on it....I'd be interested to see other peoples comments and also your photos later on!

Nice one so far!


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## Aron_Dip

Picking up on what dowheim said im also new to the scene and also by no means an expert but i agree with dowheim about the right hand side but i really like the low sides on the tank different from most and goes well on the ikea bookcase .. Look forward to seeing more progress


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## Deano3

thanks for the replies so far, ththe reason i havnt put smaller stones is because i really wanted a large open space for viewing of shrimp and fish and didnt want to clutter the aquarium, is what i said about drystarting sound ok ? also anyone recomend another background plant

thanks Dean


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## foxfish

Looks great - are you going to lower the light for the dry start & just cover the tank with cling film?


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## Deano3

thanks mate, yeah will lower to just about tank and should i add water to just above substrate then spray every day and cover with cling film? were is best place to order plants AE ?

thanks dean


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## Richard Dowling

Deano3 said:
			
		

> the reason i havnt put smaller stones is because i really wanted a large open space for viewing of shrimp and fish and didnt want to clutter the aquarium



When I say 1/2 rocks in front of the rock on the right I dont mean large space consuming rocks, even a couple of centimeters high would do it, Just to fill the empty space slightly. Once the plants are in I dont think this will distract any attention from your shrimp and fish.

Regarding the dry starting...I have no idea, I'd await some advice from someone that has done this before


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## foxfish

Just fill to the lower substrate level & cover with cling film, you shouldn't need to spray at all, at least not from my experience.
Best place for plants is on the forum, if you keep an eye out or even ask on a separate thread. I bought a huge quantity of DHC only a few weeks ago for £8 .. it would of cost £50 for that amount in a shop!
Failing that look out for the 1-2 grow range http://www.tropica.com/en/plants/1-2-grow!.aspx


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## Deano3

i will have a mess about with my scape tomorro as not sure about the rock on lefthand above the big rock also, thanks for the info will see if can fill in a little,


			
				foxfish said:
			
		

> Just fill to the lower substrate level & cover with cling film, you shouldn't need to spray at all, at least not from my experience.
> Best place for plants is on the forum, if you keep an eye out or even ask on a separate thread. I bought a huge quantity of DHC only a few weeks ago for £8 .. it would of cost £50 for that amount in a shop!
> Failing that look out for the 1-2 grow range http://www.tropica.com/en/plants/1-2-grow!.aspx



thanks foxfish will post the question on plant section, any other olant you recomend for the rear of tank flame moss or a larger grass ?

thanks dean

added a smaller on in front but dont want to mess about to much, straightened the one behind the big rock and like the look now


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## Aron_Dip

that looks better makes the rock behind look bigger than it is and also makes it look higher too


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## Deano3

thanks mate i agree dont want to look to plain, in the front i removed some substrate so looks like slopes up onto the bigger rocks, how deep should substrate be at the front on the open part its only 1cm should i raise everything up ? just hard on a shallow tank as every cm counts as only 18cm high then add substrate and hair grass lol

thanks


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## Aron_Dip

I'm not too sure but I did read something in a Aqua Journal Mag to have it 4cm hight at the front but I'm sure some guys will point you in the right direction mate


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## Dillinger

looks good to me so far and nice to see another shallow floating about. I know my tank is far from amazing and this is not a recent picture but I thought I'd share with you incase it helped layout wise?





You can't really see the depth in the picture but my substrate at the front is just over an inch then towards the back about 3. Watch out for flow in these shallows as your substrate will end up not where it was planned, I tweaked for weeks just to get flow around the tank evenly without uprooting or substrate storms.


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## Deano3

wow dillinger that looks great, i love it when all the stones in middle like that but i want more open look, hopefully if all works out i can set up another on in future and do similar setup to urs, my filter is huge aswel so will have plenty of flow, i have made the substrate 1inch at the lowest point so doubled the thickness and should that be ok ? just over inch at the very front ?

also just order 6 pots of dwarf hair grass for my carpet as want to get my dry start going and is it ok to use a up inline diffuser if using lilly pipes and it wont just drift into attmosphere if scimming surface lol ? sorry if that sounds stupid or does it mix with the water.

thanks dean


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## jack-rythm

Looks really cool. Just in the process of building myself a shallow optiwhite tank 900x200x450mm so will start that after the new year. I originally built a 900x200x300mm but missed the depth too much so sold it and now planning to upgrade    I reckon I'll copy your lighting idea and get some shelving units to rest my light on


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## Deano3

jack-rythm said:
			
		

> Looks really cool. Just in the process of building myself a shallow optiwhite tank 900x200x450mm so will start that after the new year. I originally built a 900x200x300mm but missed the depth too much so sold it and now planning to upgrade    I reckon I'll copy your lighting idea and get some shelving units to rest my light on




thanks jack yeah really impressed with adjustable sheving units from b and q also in white or silver or black, if get white much cheaper at screwfix and you get sets of 5 or so,so plenty of spares.

so will the inline diffusers be fine with the lilly pipes and the co2 wont drift into atomosphere if skimming surface ?
ordering gush nano lilly pipes tomorro along with drop checker etc will take pics, also my dwarf hair grass arrived this morning but missed the package so will pick up in morning and hopefully at the depot so can get planted in morning

also when i start my dry start method in morning should i fill to substrate level then add the hair grass then wrap in cling film and leave lights on 12 hours ?

thanks dean


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## Dillinger

The inline diffuser will work fine, should kick fine bubbles of co2 around the tank nicely. The lily pipe vortex that will drag down from the surface shouldn't affect Direct co2 infusion. The lily pipe surface skim aspect is pretty poor selling point IMO, if you have strong lights and a warm house evaporation leads to gass off as the pipe will be close to the top of water to get a vortex. 

When I did the dry start approach I sprayed as I planted to keep plants moist, you may find once your done the water level looks pretty good but if not just spray more till right level. I found just slightly under substrate level was good for a water level. Wrap it up and leave a gap on the sides, not massive but just enough to circulate air, helps prevent that nasty white mould I found. I'd also each day peel back the plastic wrap during light hours for 15mims or so just so plants can get that fresh allowance of co2 from the room. You should be good not to spray every day. I think I did it once a week but may differ for your tank main thing is not to keep it too wet. Most people will run 12 hours of light but I've seen people pulling 14!


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## Deano3

thanks dllinger, i planted 6 pots this morning and not enough but here is how far i am, i will need order another 7 pots i think and is the water level ok and the plants short enough or do you think i should trim ?

also i might just use diffuser and beetle counter i already ordered as not sure if can afford inline diffuser this month but will invest when have the money should i be able to spread the co2 ok using this ? obviously not as good as the inline but should it be ok

is this regulator ok you think http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CO2-Regulator ... 460a7b1fe7

one last question will the hair grass grow ok in the water as wil be cold and not tropical temperature until flooded

pics below











thanks dean


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## Deano3

I lowered the water level slightly but can anyone answer me as to will it be ok if room gets cold will it survive ok ? 

And if you can answer any other questions on post above great 

Thanks dean


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## jack-rythm

Plants will be fine mate, I can't see your room temp dropping lower that 15 at night? Your plants will be fine  as for your plants, leave them for a week so they adjust and begin to shoot then cut them to about half an inch


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## Deano3

the water feels cold but aslong as room above 15 should it be ok ?

thanks mate


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## Dillinger

Plants will be fine, the wrap will keep them happy and humid.

As for the reg you found looks ok, just watch out for the lower priced reg's because the solenoids often are of poor quality and stick.


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## Stu Worrall

plant will be fine. ive had acularis growing in a bucket outside over winter which has been frozen solid and it grows back fine in the summer!  Greath iwagumi too.

If thats parvula and you want it to spread you may want to cut it down a bit more


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## Iain Sutherland

you might want to check that regulator has an adjustable working pressure above 2.5 bar or inline atomisers wont work if you plan to use one.


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## Deano3

the grass is acularis will cut it down when finish work tonight, looking forward to the rest arriving so can get planted glad about it growing ok as was about 13 degress in kitchen this morning and 0 outside lol freezing cold lol, it doesnt say about adjustable pressure i might email the seller and ask do the inline ones need above 2.5 bar to work ?

thanks for the help


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## jack-rythm

correct me if im wrong but eleocharis acularis is a version of tall hair grass.. maybe best to opt for dwarf hairgrass 'eleocharis parvula'? either way they should do fine, can just imagine your tall hairgrass at the front loosing control and need constant trimming lol.


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## Deano3

on AE website people said dwarf hair grass but either way i will just have to maintain more lol later on when carpet growing in and flood the tank i will be interested to see what peoples maintainence schedules are how often and what exactly they do to keep there tank looking amazing

thanks dean


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## foxfish

Just my opinion but I would lower the water level so the foliage is out of the water & divide the plants up into individual stems, you should get loads more out of the bunches you have planted & I would most defenatly get some heat in there too! If you want to see some growth I think you need more warmth, put a heater in a container of water in the tank, that will help with the humidity too.....


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## Deano3

i do have a small aquarium heater i could do that thanks for the tip, when i finish work i will lower the water to substrate level, as firt time i hve planted i didnt know how much to seperate them lol i have ordered 7 more pots so will seperate them into maybe 2-3 strands or as small as possible some dont seem to have roots but sure they will grow, i will have to think of somewere to put a container maybe ontop of the rock some how then put in aquarium 50w heater

does that sound ok
thanks dean


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## foxfish

I actually use heating mats under my emersed set ups.


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## Deano3

well rest of my eleocharis acularis  arrived and got it planted is it the tall grass of dwarf hair grass ? dont mind either way i will just have to keep trimming if tall sorry about weird angle on the pic, i also lowered the water level to substrate level, my lilly pipes arrived along with drop checker and my FE only thing i need to order now is a regulator
asked seller a question about does it have adjutable pressure to 2.5 bar but no reply any one else think this reg should be ok ? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/300823551975? ... 1423.l2649




Uploaded with ImageShack.us
thanks dean


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## jack-rythm

its tall hairgrass. Sorry I mentioned it buddy i just was unsure you knew what it was. The difference between dwarf and tall is it grows differently. you will expect to see black buds on the ends of the grass as it grows, as you cut the grass  back to trim, black buds will appear so new shoots can come out. tall hair grass manages to shoot off new stems from one single stem, causing it to tangle and not look so straight and spotty. to my knowledge, dwarf hair grass has never done this, dwarf hair gras grows in single stems and sends shoots/runners below the surface. but on the contrary it may fill out quite nicely


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## Deano3

So should be fine u think will it look ok ? On Wikipedia and various other sites it says that's dwaef hair grass they say it about loads lol as long as I keep short I don't mind anyway

Dean


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## jack-rythm

im sure if you keep it short it will be dean  dont worry too much mate  looking good too..


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## Deano3

Thanks mate, so if I run like this for 1 month or so then I flood and boost up the co2 and start dosing my ferts is that about right ? Also will the grass be ok on the top of the hill as substrate just damp ? 

Been running lights 10 hours a day and removing cling film for 20 mins or so also left a small gap in cling film to allow plants to breath

Thanks dean


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## Deano3

hi everyone doing a weekly update grass is growing but doesnt seem to be spreading or growing much but  it is cold and all only been planted a week or just less, all my gush lily pipes and drop cheacker also arrived only waiting on my regulator

here is some pics so far any comments welcome













thanks dean


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## foxfish

Lawrence Llewellyn Bowen wall paper?


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## jack-rythm

Wow your starting to get an awesome bit of kit mate.. Great stuff. Great start and great potential. I think my next scape will have a tan colour substrate. Getting bored of my black now


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## Ady34

foxfish said:
			
		

> Lawrence Llewellyn Bowen wall paper?


Matches perfectly the rock colouration though, very well planned!

Looks great Deano,
ive never tried the dry start method so it will be interesting to follow this.
Id have had to flood it and pump it full of c02, its gonna have to happen sometime.....


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## Deano3

foxfish said:
			
		

> Lawrence Llewellyn Bowen wall paper?



lol not sure our lass picked it , its from homebase

Matches perfectly the rock colouration though, very well planned!

thanks a lot mate didnt even notice   

Looks great Deano,
ive never tried the dry start method so it will be interesting to follow this.
Id have had to flood it and pump it full of c02, its gonna have to happen sometime.....[/quote]

thanks a lot well cannot flood yet anyway as not recieved my regulator but if growth is slow and when i get all equipment maybe will do but will let you know before i do anything

thanks Dean


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## foxfish

The dry start principle is sound in that the plants take root & can be placed in very specific areas without being blown out of the substrate by strong water flow or being pulled out by fish but... the down side is .... big die off of the leaves when you flood the tank.
Normally a dry start would last at least 6 weeks if you want a complete carpet, growth should be quite a bit faster than when the tank is flooded & even though you can expect leaf die off, once the tank is filled with water, recovery is pretty fast if you supply enough gas due to the established roots...


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## nayr88

Dry start can be really good, once carpeted it'll look so good you won't want to fill it haha

I did a dsm iwagumi and was told to have no standing water, there seems to be a fair bit in your tank ATM is it always like that or just after a misting??


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## Deano3

I actually just topped water up as couldn't see how low it was, I don't mist as was told dont need to do u think I should be misting ?

Thanks dean


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## foxfish

You need high humidity & damp soil, if you intend to do a proper dry start you need heat!!


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## foxfish

Look no standing water & 28c inside....


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## Richard Dowling

foxfish said:
			
		

> Look no standing water & 28c inside....
> 
> These heat mats you use Foxfish...where are they from and what do they look like? Im impressed by your results!


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## jack-rythm

Their reptile heat mats, can get them at different wattage so higher temps. I used these when I need bearded dragons, I would send u some but sold my Kit  sorry. Look on Ebay, there averagely priced.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


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## Richard Dowling

jack-rythm said:
			
		

> Their reptile heat mats, can get them at different wattage so higher temps. I used these when I need bearded dragons, I would send u some but sold my Kit  sorry. Look on Ebay, there averagely priced.



Ah right, they are quite well priced! So where do you position them? you would disturb the scape if you put them underneath wouldnt you??


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## Iain Sutherland

The heat mats go under the tank.  
Fox, are the heat mats flexible or rigid?  Ive flooded my 'tribute' so wanted to add a little heat....


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## jack-rythm

I know its not directed at me mate but yes they are rigid. I mean they fold up in stages but generally rigid mate . 

Sent from my Nexus 7


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## foxfish

The ones I use are dating back a few years & were sold for fishtank use, they are flexible, as in you can roll them into a circle but, you certainly could not fold one in half - just like a 2mm thick sheet of plastic.
However I dont think there is much difference between what I have & the reptile mats...
I have about 5-6 varying from 8w - 25w & 20cm - 60cm they dont need thermostats if you match the size to the tank, they seem to get about 20 -25c in temp but the lights can raise the temp to well over 30 sometimes.


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## jack-rythm

I think im going to go for this effect for my shallow tank fox, ill do some more research into the reptile ones and let you know how it goes at a later date


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## Deano3

i agree fox fish i couldnt find a way to get my heater in a tub in tank without being on the substrate as its so shallow any ideas ?

might look into heat mat but its a money i dont really have might just have to flood when get all parts and fill with co2

Dean


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## tim

Make a few holes in the back of the tub and hook it on with a few shaped paper clips for hooks


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## Deano3

I will try only problem I how shallow the tank is only 18 cm an about 3 of that is now substrate and then the grass but will see if have a small tub if not I will start spraying daily but think it needs heat aswel

Thanks again
Dean


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## nayr88

My success at dry start didn't involve a heat mat, just light an limited ventilation with a daily mist of tank water


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## jack-rythm

you got a journal of your dry start nayr?


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## nayr88

http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14773

There you go mate  sorry to go off topic


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## nayr88

Not off topic but link to another journal.


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## jack-rythm

cheers


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## Deano3

i leave around a cm along edge to stop mold did you do that and i am going to start spraying daily tomorro i am seeing growth just not spread yet

thanks dean


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## Deano3

well i sprayed this morning (just purchased spray bottle) to keep humid also b and q have 3 for 2 on digital mini times so got 3 for £10 so got some for light and co2 will get some pics next week defently seeing growth in grass at the frint should i trimm again or leave to grow ?

thanks dean


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## Deano3

Is it ok to trim my hair grass as is getting very long, just chicking its ok in the dry start method

thanks dean


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## jack-rythm

Yes Mate trim trim trim  

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


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## Deano3

thanks jack how low should i trim it ? its hard when tank not flooded as have to catch all the grass lol

dean


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## jack-rythm

you could fill slightly to cut the grass, collect the floating grass and then syphon the water back out. that would moisten the grass too. you wanna cut it down to about half an inch to an inch really to force it to spread. good luck mate


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## Deano3

well here is a few pics before and after my trim
 before the trim




after the trim




thanks again jack
Dean


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## Nathaniel Whiteside

I'd buy another load of Hairgrass dean, should help it filling in a lot quicker.

Looking well though mate!


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## nayr88

Whitey89 said:
			
		

> I'd buy another load of Hairgrass dean, should help it filling in a lot quicker.
> 
> Looking well though mate!



2nd that.


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## Nathaniel Whiteside

Id try buying 4 pots and planting as 'individually' as possible. They spread a lot better if so, although the job is extremely laborious.

I planted my mini Hairgrass this way and its starting to spread really nicely.


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## jack-rythm

bang on, imagine the 5 dots on a dice, plant like this at around 1 inch spacings, less if you hav more grass


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## Deano3

Might order some more pots then maybe 4-5 pots, would it spread better once my regulator arrives if I flood and pump full of co2 and EI dosing ? Also will have heater and filter running then I am thinking its just cold that's all

Thanks Dean


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## foxfish

jack-rythm said:
			
		

> Yes Mate trim trim trim
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


Why did you suggest that mate?


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## jack-rythm

because It was quite long and Deano was aiming for more spread. I know that if you trim it back down to a short length  of around half and inch to an inch it speeds up the spreading process.. this is what I have done with my tanks so just giving Deano some advice I have had good success with. why you ask fox?


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## foxfish

Well I was wondering if you had any details as to why you think this would help the plant spread, or even if you could explain the logic behind the trimming of a freshly planted plant?


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## jack-rythm

I was led to believe that it had been in there 1-2 weeks so was settled enough to cut. I got the advice right here on this forum from a fair few people so decided to try it and i could notice a big difference. maybe it was in one of my very very very first tanks I did.. maybe in one of my journals maybe? not too sure to be honest. I was also talking to Dan Crawford about my hair grass at AL and he suggested this method. I know many people do this and after my positive experience with it I thought I would pass on the tip 

I also found this in my watch list on youtube tat I must of had months back 



Im know expert in the logic of growth so cant explain how or why it works, I just know it does


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## nayr88

I've also found big trims with hairgrass a winner. This was a flooded tank however.

Works good with glosso too.


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## jack-rythm

Yeah actually I must point out that I had flooded tanks too, but I would assume it would make no difference


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## foxfish

As we know virtually all the aquarium plants we buy are grown emersed so when we place them underwater the leaves die back to be replaced by new growth more suited to growing underwater underwater, hence the benefit of trimming or removing the leaves...
I was questioning the logic in trimming back a hardy established plant while in its emersed state?
I honestly don't know the answer but, I dont normally cut back my pot plant & stick them on the window sill, at least not until they have adjusted & grown.


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## jack-rythm

I think allowing 1-2 weeks should be enough for the parvula to adjust. but then I too dont know the tue answer. im going on second hand evidence and first hand experience. But  have never done an immersed planted start either so it may differ from that perspective, although I cant see why it would change anything. the roots of the plant is submersed either way. I wouldn't advise cutting if their literally brand newly bought but I remember reading this a week or so ago so assumed that by now they would of adapted. although when the tank is filled everything will need to re-adapt again lol  parvula IMO is a very strengthy plant so should be fine


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## Ian Holdich

I also echo what foxfish said...its best to leave it at least 3-4 weeks before the first trim of hairgrass, you'll end up with the old leaves attracting certain algaes, and it can end up in a right mess.


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## Deano3

Well there cut now so hopefully be ok , like I say might order some more hair grass when get time do u think it might be good idea to flood when get all my co2 equipment and crank it up as think the tank is cold and will have heater running or would u advise to keep dry start method going for 6 weeks

Thanks dean


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## Nathaniel Whiteside

Dry start it as long as you can, gives you chance to get everything else ready. Just fill when your bored of it. 

Cheers,


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## Deano3

cheers whitney   

wil keep everyone posted thanks for watching and helping with jurnal


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## Nathaniel Whiteside

Haha, 

''How will I know, it's just a feeling!!''

Good luck!


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## Deano3

cannot wait to recieve me regulator as growth is slow and want to flood, but still awaiting it from china, shouldnt be long now been 2-3 weeks so far, want to flood and get some co2 and heat in there, will the plants die off at first when flood ? also what is classed as high co2 levels ? i have a beetle counter so around how many bubbles per second should i aim for when first flood ?

thanks dean


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## foxfish

Your plants have far more Co2 available now than they will when you fill with water, growth should be far faster in their immersed state!
The benefit of a dry start is fast algae free growth but yes you will loose the foliage when you fill with water.


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## Nathaniel Whiteside

Yeah, id hold off for as long as possible. Add a little ferts to your spray mix if you want. But only at a weak dose, otherwise it'll cause precipitation on your HG and it wont like it much 

Youll see much faster growth, as FoxFish states, in your immersed form. 
Did you plant up any more? Id recommend trying to split into individual plantlets.

Monotonus - Yes.  

Better results - YES.

Cheers,


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## Deano3

no i never got a chance to order any more , i know it has all the co2 etc but can the very low temperatures keep the hair grass from spreading as i see height growth but not spreading been weeks now, why do you loose all the folaige when flood ? is it because the plant die trying to adjust then they grow back once adjusting to less co2 etc

thanks dean


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## Nathaniel Whiteside

The temperature in this state isnt as important as the co2 availbility. The hairgrass will take a couple of weeks to start sending out runners, which is when you know its settled. 

You'll maybe lose some leaf matter, but whats important is the roots will be in position, so will return to full health (given good co2 to supplement transition period). If you have no fauna yet, and are going to leave it that way till the hairgras takes hold, then crank the co2 so that when the lights are on, the Dropchecker is *Yellow*. This will ensure maximum co2 availability, thus allowing you to worry only about Fert supplementation. 

Cheers,


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## Deano3

well no regulator yet anyway so still dry starting and letting runners get hold, maybe leave till begining of jan then if reg has arrived maybe flood then

thanks again whitney will keep you posted and get some pics up over christmas
Dean


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## Deano3

well still no regulator been in touch with seller and say delivered 6th december but no one home so taken to post office i have been there and no recored of it so waiting to see what happens, shouldnt have purchased from over seas, also havnt updated because my first baby was born monday so been very busy lol will try get some pics of growth this week

Thanks dean


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## Deano3

ok well here is some pics below and very slow growth and on some of the grass some very thin hair like algie but still no reg waiting till get refund then getting one from uk any suggestions ? limit is around £70, just want to flood now and get EI dosing started and get co2 running then once looking healthy start fishless cycle











going to drain water from bottom and sorry for not updating but like i say been busy with baby lol
any comments welcome, also still havnt had a chance to purchase more hair grass but hopefullly get back on track now
thanks dean


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## foxfish

At least the grass has not died & in fact looks like it has grown quite a bit!
Have you tried uprooting one to see if the roots have established? I still think there is to much water in the tank though.
I have always treated my set up like a victorian bottle garden with a sealed top so you get lots of condensation & humidity but I guess without any internal heat you dont get any condensation.


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## Deano3

there is normally clingfilm over the top mate took it off and allowed condenstation to go so could get decent pic, and i agree about the water i will drop level tomorro thanks, one thing i never hear people talking about is there maintenence schedule just wondering if anyone could tell me there schedule like waterchanges,cleaning of lilly pipes cleaning of glass etc and what is best method for glass cleaning , credit card ? heard the magnet ones can scratch the glass

Thanks Dean


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## jack-rythm

Yes dean those magnets have been known to scratch if it picks up gravel etc.. I just use an old rag and clean my tank with that   as for maintenance I clean when it gets dirty really.. I usually clean everything and do a 30 percent water change every Sunday  

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


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## Deano3

thanks jack , at first when first flood and pump with co2 i wil have to do much more often water changes is that correct ? daily 40-50% water changes , once flood i will raise the lighting in my tank to 75cm above the tank so hopefully lighting will be ok, i will switch lights on for around 5-6 hours and start co2 2 hours before lighting and turn off 1 hour before lights off and set co2 to 4-5 bubbles per second does all this sound ok ? just starting to think about once get set up now thats all and a few questions still lol

thanks again
Dean


----------



## Deano3

also lowered the water level to just below substrate today and added some flourish into water spray bottle today 

any information on post above would be helpful
Thanks again Dean


----------



## foxfish

Sounds fine Dean, as long as you don't have any fish then you can ramp up the gas, 4-5 bubbles sound good to start things off but it will depend on so many individual circumstances.


----------



## tim

You may also find that acicularis will grow taller rather than spread as much as parvula you did plant acicularis in the end mate


----------



## bape

Nice looking scape, looking forward to the finished result


----------



## Deano3

thanks for comments hopefully get my money back so can buy a uk reg, any suggestions for resonable price ? up to £70 max

Thanks dean


----------



## Deano3

does this reg seem ok ?UP Adjustable CO2 Twin Gauge Regulator (A-153)

or any other recomendations
dean


----------



## LondonDragon

Deano3 said:


> does this reg seem ok ?UP Adjustable CO2 Twin Gauge Regulator (A-153)


Looks good to me, there are a few people here using it. Haven't heard of any issues!


----------



## foxfish

Problems using a FE? | UK Aquatic Plant Society is this the same one?


----------



## Lindy

I've got the UP-165 with the adjustable working pressure and its really good. Pretty sure it came from Tankscape but maybe out of stock.


----------



## Deano3

thanks , not sure if it is same one, apparently the post office has said the package was delivered and signed for so could i go round neighbours and check, i said i am not knocking on all the houses in street as i never got anything through door saying it was at a certain address (however this has happened before) i have told seller to get in touch with post office and find out exactly were it is. rediculous not getting anything through door saying were it is so will just have to wait and see what they say  hope sorted ASAP.also a quick question my light has 1 24w hagen glo and one hagen power , when i recieved the light i have never changed bulbs no idea how long been running and how old, would you advise changing ? do they get weaker etc ?

Thanks a lot for help again
Dean


----------



## jack-rythm

Dean mate go up your post office depot.. sometimes they dont drop anything through the door but still take it to the depot?


----------



## Deano3

already been jack and nothing there then the company got in touch and said it has been signed for let them sort it, already started procedure on ebay saying not arrived   hopefully get sorted soon. what do you think about the bulbs?

thanks dean


----------



## jack-rythm

Love the icon! 

as for bulbs your talking to the wrong man tbh mate, Im not to up to date with lighting, Im low tech so I just use any old light  Sorry buddy.


----------



## Deano3

a quick question my light has 1 24w hagen glo and one hagen power , when i recieved the light i have never changed bulbs no idea how long been running and how old, would you advise changing ? do they get weaker etc ?

anyone else know just not sure
cheers Dean


----------



## foxfish

Generally  I change mine every year but some say they are good until they stop working!


----------



## Deano3

thanks mate i have 1 spare so might just throw it in

Dean


----------



## Deano3

Well I didn't realise only had 45 days to report item not arrived so I have missed the dead line, I waited longer due to Christmas etc, put tracker number into Royal Mail an says its at heathrow ? Any one any idea how to go about finding out we're it is ? Cannot believe missed getting money back but been busy with crimbo and baby lol

Any help welcome
Dean


----------



## Deano3

anyone have any advice of were to go from here ? it says its at heathrow worldwide dc but arrived there 6/12/12 and doesnt have any more info , on the normal track and trace it has no info but on this site it says at heathrow Track and Trace | Royal Mail Ltd but how do i get in touch or try to find out were it is as it has said it is there for weeks ? the seller origional said it was signed for so check neighbours etc but obviously not

any help would be great
thanks dean


----------



## jack-rythm

How is it all going dean?

Cheers! Jack


----------



## Deano3

Hi jack, still trying to get sorted trying to get seller to start a enquiery with there post office to get a refund but he said if it doesnt work if i pay for delivery he will send me a new one out which is nice of him as its royal mails fault, royal mail wont give refund unless they start enquiery at sellers end incase item has been returned and they not saying lol thats y not been posting as cannot do much until it arives

thanks for asking mate
Dean


----------



## jack-rythm

Deano3 said:


> Hi jack, still trying to get sorted trying to get seller to start a enquiery with there post office to get a refund but he said if it doesnt work if i pay for delivery he will send me a new one out which is nice of him as its royal mails fault, royal mail wont give refund unless they start enquiery at sellers end incase item has been returned and they not saying lol thats y not been posting as cannot do much until it arives
> 
> thanks for asking mate
> Dean


Sorry to hear Mate, it brings us down when stuff like this happens.. The other night my girlfriend caught me adding up my triptych gear to sell, at that point I just wanted it gone. I went to bed and got done sleep and realised it's not the end of the world lol. These things happen. Good luck  

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Deano3

i know bit annoying, wil keep you posted anyway mate think going to pay postage agin and get it, wont make same mistake again lol

Thanks dean


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside

Deano3 said:


> i know bit annoying, wil keep you posted anyway mate think going to pay postage agin and get it, wont make same mistake again lol
> 
> Thanks dean



Good man, hope you get it sorted pal.


----------



## Deano3

just got email they have sent another one out free of charge  so hopefully this one lands lol hoepfully not long untill flood, the hair grass hasnt spreaded much but hopefully when flooded it will spread more or i will add more, once arrives will confirm a few different questions i have before flooding but hopefully here soon anyway . just keeping you posted

thanks Dean


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside

got a pic deano?


----------



## Deano3

give me 5 mins then mate, also just took cling film off and noticed some of the tips of the grass are browning and white


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside

Must be due to drying out a bit too much


----------



## Deano3

here you go mate see the browning ? hopefully be ok till flood within next 2 weeks













need to read up about taking better pics as i am rubbish at it lol

cheers


----------



## jack-rythm

Looking great man, you finding the DSM effective? Are you seeing the difference in growth between the HG on the bottom and the HG in the top right corner? I assume this needs a lot more spraying as its not in contact with the base water?

Cheers! Jack


----------



## Deano3

thanks jack yeah the bottom grass is a lot longer, i am hoping it spreads a lot once flooded, you can now see roots in the substrate so know its runners are doing ok, nothing to compare to mate as first aquarium but been good for me as reg not arrived and least ot the runners going , shuld arrive this week so will be posting some questions about how i go about flooding etc

Thanks Dean


----------



## whatok

a plain backdrop would make your photos 10x better mate


----------



## justin85

Your tank and scape look amazing, its gonig to look great once grown in.  I agree a plain background would make it stand out much more.


----------



## Deano3

thanks guys, what you recon plain black background ? were would i get this from

Thanks dean


----------



## rolexbene

Yeah second the plain background,  check out ebay for some white window vinyl or something similar. Also you will find hairgrass spreads a lot faster when you aggressively cut it back, you should cut it to 1-2cm and watch it send out runners and connect to make a carpet. Only thing is I have never tried this whilst using DSM, but if you leave hairgrass long it has a tendency to just grow up.


----------



## jack-rythm

I personally can't grow the stuff quick enough, it's such a slow growth plant and I'm dosing Fertz and LC daily. I see it more as  decorative plant around rocks etc to break up visual imbalances. I'm not sure how long it take to carpet in a pressurised co2 tank though.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Deano3

hopefully not long lol, once i flood i will cut back short, what you think jack black background ? will cheack ebay

cheers dean


----------



## jack-rythm

yeah man why not.. usually I would say frosted white but for this im feeling a black film background dean  black will really highlight the light greys in the stone too


----------



## Deano3

We're would u purchase black film background ? eBay ? Don't wanna paint my new ADA incase ever want to move location etc, you recommend trimming again ?

Thanks Dean


----------



## jack-rythm

Call a Glazier and get them to order u some in Mate, they should be able to get it readily. That's where I get mine anyhow

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside

http://item.mobileweb.ebay.co.uk/viewitem?itemId=251052699392

This stuff looks unreal, make sure when you apply to spray it with a weak water/fairy liquid mix.  

This allows you to smooth all the bubbles out, then let it dry.

Then trim and enjoy how porn your tank looks.


----------



## Deano3

Thanks for that guys will get some ordered as totally agree and dont like being able to see right through to the wall

also would you advise another trim ?

thanks Dean


----------



## rolexbene

You could just redo the whole wall

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Deano3

just redecorated the whole kitchen  , ordered the black stuff from the link mat provided , cheers 

hopefully ok to put on, so how do i go about it ? do you wet the glass before putting on etc , think i should give another trim aswel as tips browning ?

Thanks Dean


----------



## jack-rythm

Using a spray bottle with a smidge of fairy liquid in works wonders. It's very simple, use a credit card to slide the bubbles out and viola


----------



## Deano3

Do u spray the surface ur putting onto the glass will it stick ok if wet ? Thanks jack


----------



## Ady34

rolexbene said:


> You could just redo the whole wall
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2


Personally I like your wallpaper.....I have the same in purple 






I'm really looking forward to seeing this one flooded, I really like the shallow grassy iwagumi....so much so I've been laying the seeds for another tank in the Mrs mind tonight 
Cheerio
Ady


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside

Dean, look at my post above regarding glass prep.

Cut the hairgrass back to 10mm above substrate. It will spread more the harder you cut it back.


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside

Deano3 said:


> Do u spray the surface ur putting onto the glass will it stick ok if wet ? Thanks jack



The fairy liquid and water will help you slide it into position and get the bubbles out with a card. 
Let it dry, then trim the edges along the bevel of the glass with a scalpel.

And jacks your mothers son. Itlll look  great


----------



## jack-rythm

Deano3 said:


> Do u spray the surface ur putting onto the glass will it stick ok if wet ? Thanks jack


Yes mate when you spray the glass to apply the film you have a couple mins to start moving it around no problem. The idea is the liquid allows you to adjust the film and get it on accurately then you leave it. It dries. Then sticks. you can even remove this at a later date by just peeling it off with no residue or markings on the glass. So I think going for the film is the best idea. If you want to change colours at a later date then do it


----------



## Deano3

Thanks a lot mat and jack very helpful and Ady thats some nice wallpaper  iv even got the exact same fitting on wall to adjust my lighting exept mine is black lol will get the film on this weekend if arries in morning hopefully.will keep you guys posted

Thanks again Dean


----------



## Deano3

FINALLY my reg arrived and so did black background. going to put the back ground on shorty.
here is the up-aqua reg




i do however have a few questions regarding flooding, obviously firstly i am going to set my fe up to reg etc, i will put all lilly pipes and everthing into position do you think best position would be front right ? put inlet next to the outlet, also were do you think best place for co2 diffuser ? obviously want it into the flow of water but not sure exactly were , also i will fill with treated water then will have to set my filter away so have to learn how to bleed then once on i am going to raise the lights to 75mm above tank and have on for 6 hours then set the co2 at around 2 hours before at 4-5 bps and off one hour before lights off hopefully get set up tommoro, i will set up my Ei starter kit and dose acording to the bottles, will i have to do frequent water changes at first ?

does all this sound ok guys ?

so something like this
co2 on 10am lights on 12pm
co2 off 5pm lights off 6pm

dose acording to the bottle and still require info on cleaning of filter and grass and how often ?

once running for few days and got hang of it i will start dosing my ammonia to fishless cycle

Any help would be great
Thanks Dean


----------



## Deano3

Also how exactly do I fill my beetle counter ? With water 

Thanks dean


----------



## nayr88

I normally submerge my in my tank till it fills up...not sure if that's the right thing to do though :/ works fine for me


----------



## Deano3

Deano3 said:


> FINALLY my reg arrived and so did black background. going to put the back ground on shorty.
> here is the up-aqua reg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i do however have a few questions regarding flooding, obviously firstly i am going to set my fe up to reg etc, i will put all lilly pipes and everthing into position do you think best position would be front right ? put inlet next to the outlet, also were do you think best place for co2 diffuser ? obviously want it into the flow of water but not sure exactly were , also i will fill with treated water then will have to set my filter away so have to learn how to bleed then once on i am going to raise the lights to 75mm above tank and have on for 6 hours then set the co2 at around 2 hours before at 4-5 bps and off one hour before lights off hopefully get set up tommoro, i will set up my Ei starter kit and dose acording to the bottles, will i have to do frequent water changes at first ?
> 
> does all this sound ok guys ?
> 
> so something like this
> co2 on 10am lights on 12pm
> co2 off 5pm lights off 6pm
> 
> dose acording to the bottle and still require info on cleaning of filter and grass and how often ?
> 
> once running for few days and got hang of it i will start dosing my ammonia to fishless cycle
> 
> Any help would be great
> Thanks Dean


 ?


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside

Deano3 said:


> ?



Sounds good to me dean mate, have you got an up aqua diffuser? I'd recommend one as it looks as if your working pressure is adjustable on that new shiny Reg.

Try keeping pipes at opposite sides if you can. Or if placing them on the side have one at the front and one near the back, dependant on lily pipe or spraybar (lily pipe at front and inlet at back, or spraybar at back and lilypipe in the middle of one side)


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside

Ps. Get a move on. I want to see it flooded


----------



## Deano3

lol cheers mate its gush lilly pipes will see if can get one at each side of tank see how it looks if not on same side, yeah i will purchase one maybe this month but diffuser for now were you think best place to position is mate?


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside

Try position it under the filter inlet, so the co2 is sucked in an mashed up inside your filter.


----------



## Deano3

its hard to position things with the 18cm of room so cannot go directly under it, would opposite side be ok or would it not spread evenly ? Or could go just to aode pf inlet think that should work ? will be flooding tomorro after work mate, just made up my micro and macro bottle ready will see how to get filter going then flood and set up co2 and times then dose and hope for the best lol how often you think will require water changes then mate ? when first flood

Thanks Dean


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside

Yeah put it under the inlet then, that should push it around somewhat.


----------



## Deano3

Ok will do that tonight, will lift light flood the tank start filter and heater an then start c02 when finish work, how often do you recommend changing the water ?

Thanks dean


----------



## Deano3

having problem getting co2 tubing onto beetle counter pipe is same saize as were its going, used boiling kettle water and vasoline but still not going might have to slightly heat with lighter any hints ?


----------



## Deano3

on flooding now then once filter running and heater on i will knock lights off and set times for tomorro morning should be ok till then hopefully,will get pic once full

Dean


----------



## Deano3

any tips on how to bleed up enheim thermo with lilly pipes ? already on the glass so dont want to take off ?


----------



## Deano3

you wont belive this i started filling my tank and messing about with positioning etc as below




then once filled started setting up filter got out of box(already had bother with clips snapping off) then filled up and found this



see the small CRACK ,LEAKING i am not to happy so i have drained tank lowered light and will be getting replacement, what a waste of a night  my fault i should have checked but i would have thought brand new out of box should be ok

anyway will let you know wats happening tomorro thanks for help so far
Dean


----------



## LondonDragon

Deano3 said:


> my fault i should have checked but i would have thought brand new out of box should be ok


Just purchased a brand new JBL filter last week from a member still in a sealed box, PFK subs offer! Got home and open the box the filter case was broken too! Quick email to JBL and they are sending me a replacement case free of charge!! it happens!!


----------



## Deano3

Couldn't believe it bother I have had with the clips and then this crack, hopefully gets sorted ASAP anyway, want to flood, will give me time for up inline atomiser to arrive anyway, but was disappointed got that far then leak but it happens

Thanks for great help so far people
Dean


----------



## Deano3

my up aqua inline diffuser arrived today but i have had email back about my filter and have to fill in returns form and send back for inspection so might take a while   gutted but wil keep you posted

Thanks Dean


----------



## jack-rythm

mate must be gutting for you. sorry to hear. Guess you will have to wait that little longer


----------



## Deano3

jack-rythm said:


> mate must be gutting for you. sorry to hear. Guess you will have to wait that little longer


 
i know jack gutted lol but hopefully not be too long, honestly though after the mess on with regulator and waiting and waiting couldnt belive it, cheers for help so far mate and will let you know how it goes

Dean


----------



## jack-rythm

Shame it didn't go to plan but then what good thing ever does. Look forward to it

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Deano3

Thought would do little udate, filter getting picked up monday just hoping they dont say fault of mine and water checked at factory or something but we will see, anyway here is few pics after trim and with black background












whats thoughts on the background ?

Thanks dean


----------



## O'Neil

Love the black background really makes the scape stand out, I'm actually planning to do the same my self.


----------



## jack-rythm

Yes Mate! Nice one! Once you go black u won't go back  

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## RynoParsons

Personally with that kind of scapes i like light blue backgrounds. But black makes the plats pop a bit more.


----------



## Deano3

Right everyone i emailed zooplus today to see if any news and they said could take 6-8 WEEKS , but only few hours later got email saying they couldnt fix so do i want replacement of refund, the only problem is i have broke 3 of the clips already seem very flimsy but on the other hand i have kept all the filter media and trays so would have spared so not sure weather to get replacement or go for another filter but then i would have to buy a heater so do you think be best to just get replacement ?

Thanks Dean


----------



## pompeyfan

An inline and new filter would be an extra expense, so i'd try for the replacement, not what you'd expect from an Ehiem...
Either way, i hope your filter issues get sorted soon mate, it's one to flood and admire for sure

Pete.


----------



## Deano3

Thanks a lot pete and that was my thoughts, I could buy a normal ehiem and inline as long as cheaper than £120 but might give this filter another go and I would have spares like I said spare trays and media and also tap at top and never sent back lol, and I do hope it is one to admire eventually need that grass grown in and flooded

Thanks Dean


----------



## Deano3

You think this is best idea then try this one again ?

Dean


----------



## Deano3

Good new people my new filter has been dispatched so be flooded this weekend  (touch wood) also you wont belive wat i got in post today , another regulator lol must be the first one that got sent and been found somewere in royal mail so i now have 2 lol was going to sell but might keep for my next larger project hopefully what you think ? was chuffed anyway but just keeping you posted

Thanks dean


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside

Deano3 said:


> Good new people my new filter has been dispatched so be flooded this weekend  (touch wood) also you wont belive wat i got in post today , another regulator lol must be the first one that got sent and been found somewere in royal mail so i now have 2 lol was going to sell but might keep for my next larger project hopefully what you think ? was chuffed anyway but just keeping you posted
> 
> Thanks dean




Is niiiiioooocee.


----------



## Deano3

was having problem with forums couldnt get text boxes to stay in place but sorted it now lol anyway filter came other day and now FLOODED here is pics of the flooding








Fe setup








flooded












hope you like it and i have few questions, i flooded yesterday morning and i set co2 away etc the co2 on 2 hours before lights and a nice dark green shade for light coming on i also dosed ei dosing and same again today,

firstly does the up aqua diffuser make a sizzling noise or do i have leak lol checked with spay bottle but cannot find one ?
secondly do you recoment water changes daily ? and how much 50%

Thanks dean sorry for the long long wait


----------



## clone

Hi , mate
sorry to hear about ur filter...I had issues as well so....watever dont kills you makes u stronger even mentaly. Nice skape the stones are awesome, but you flooded too early I think the hairgrass will go well if you dont trim it too much at the beginning, just the yellowing leaves. Hopefully will fill in after the flood. Yes 50%- 70% waterchanges every day for the first week and after every other day for another 2 weeks. Daily ferts as well calculate them for each day. Check the hairgrass on that pics

During the dry stage

after the flood went mental.
I cant stop it spreading on my sand area. IMO dont blast CO2 cause it will be just waste. U need 4h lights on (photoperiod) 50% waterchange, daily ferts, and max 1bps CO2 light green dropchecker. Make sure u use 4dKH water not the tank water in it.

before trim


and after slight trimm just the yellowing leaves and the tips....like hairdreseer Will be awesome skape once you start trim properly the hairgrass. You can mix normal eleocharis and mini one.


----------



## clone

Sorry forgot about the UP atomiser.......Yes can make sometimes noise because the diffusion of CO2 but still check for leaks with some soapy water will make bubles if leak CO2. Just put some soapy water with ur finger all over the atomise especially where the tubing meet plastic and joints between the body and the two sides of the atomiser. It is good product though very happy with it...working pressure between 2-2.5 bar never tesed it on higher. I have the best diffusion on 2.5 and will not work on less than 2 bar. What about ur light? Seems to me very high above the water. Great light spill in the room The light is very rarely reason for the algae the main reason is waterchemistry and maintanance of the tank. If the light is LED you can unredpower it or use controller- dimmer and put it down to the tank. It will give you softer more ambient look of the skape and will save money as well  Oh sorry forgot to say that should progresivelly extend the photoperiod up to desired hours, 8-10 I suggest and reduce waterchanges to may be 1-2 per week....but may be you know that already


----------



## Deano3

Wow that's a lot of advice and very welcome thanks mate , my co2 is currently on about 5 bps so will knock down, some hair grass is browning so will trim tomorro morning or tonight when do water change, lights are currently on from 12 till 6 and co2 on from 10 till 5 should I knock the lights down slightly to 5 hours ? And the light is high because Hagen glo with 2 x 12 w bulbs and 75 cm high is right height so not all lands on tank, hopefully can drop it soon, do u start fish less cycling once tank is up and running smoothly or straight away ? Think will wait couple of weeks, so tonight will knock heater and filter off drain 50 percent water and refill, what temp should I set it at u think ?

And hopefully grass fills out now flooded

Thanks very much Dean


----------



## RynoParsons

Looks great. Sucks about your filter problems


----------



## clone

Yes I have done fishless cycling I would say for a week. I have tested the amonia, nitrates , phosphates almost every day just to make sure the tank is safe for any fauna. So once my ammonia drop to nearly zero ( the test solution was very light green almost yellow) I add some micro fish B. maculatus, oto. What helped me during the DSM was the Powersand Special which has bacteria inside. The nitrobacteria development was short after the flood because the DSM bacteria development into the substrate. Also the ADA soils relise a lot amonia in the watercolumn, so waterchanges is a must at the beginning. If the light doesnt heat up a lot the water surface you can put it down I have 4x10w 6500K LED and 2x15w Grow Lights which are 15cm above the water. Of course the LEDs are underpowered.


----------



## Deano3

Thanks a lot for the help again, just checked my co2 reg and relised was at 4.5 bar lol so turned down to 2.5 so hopefully be quieter lol also just changed 50 percent water and trimmed some brown ends of the hair grass, will get running and after a week or so I will start fish less cycle then crack on with deciding what fish etc

Thanks dean


----------



## clone

Wooow I have heard about people blow their atomiser but 4.5 bars My Dad told me once about the power of compressed fluids that 7bar can stop a 40 tonns truck......I was just a kid and did not understand what he says.


----------



## clone

Pay attention with the higly compressed CO2 it is 60bar minimum inside. A leek under pressure can cost a freeze burn and a blow can cost a hand or a life. Respect the reading of ur gauges and calibrate them sometimes. 4.5 is dangerous working pressure just for urself.


----------



## Deano3

I know i will be more carefull from now on got the outer guage that says kg/cm2 to 2.5 and hopefully will be quieter now,well i am a HGV mechanic and there brakeing systems are 10bar so quite scary actually, checked for leaks yesterday and couldnt find any at all so hopefully the sizzling is just the attomiser working as it seems to be, a lot less little bubbles now as turned down the co2 to 1-2 bps, i changed 50% water last night and will do the same daily for 2 weeks then change to every other day, also been dosing daily with micro and macro recomend amount on bottle, wont be dosing saturdays as only 3 days each according to bottle.

will see how it goes now hopefully runs ok without much algie etc, havent checked any water conditions yet would you reocomend to ?

also what is best temp to set it at its around 70 at the min

and can someone recomend a cleaning process ? obviously i and changing 50% daily but how often should i clean rocks and lilly pipes and glass and grass etc or should the grass be ok for while, and how often do you clean filter etc just wondering how often other people do this

Thanks Dean


----------



## clone

Hi, mate ......yes now you cant see bubles it is because they are so fine the atomiser works dont worry. Your reference now will be the plants pearling and the dropchecker. The checker has to be lime green....if it is blueish rise the CO2 if too yellow even transperent put it down. 1-2 bps will be just fine. IMO devide the ferts daily according the dosage in the botle. But you can try ur way. The idea of daily ferts is that the plants dont suffer of ferts lack and also if you overdose the daily waterchanges will fix that. Also you will avoid algae or will be at minimum cause the plants will use the ferts straight away they will not accumulate in the water. But this is just my thougts so....keep daily w, changes for the first week.....second every other day.....put the lights on short photoperiod.......the plants might look a bit pale but will be fixed when Photoperiod get extended. The temps has to be 22-25C for most species. Check with the aquatic shop about the conditions where the fish has been kept before buy. Like temps, hardness, feeding etc. clean the glass ware when visibly dirty the same for the tank Enjoy...


----------



## Deano3

Thanks again and I am dosing like you said doseing daily like u say macro on day according to bottle and micro the next etc looking good so far will keep u posted of any questions, how often do u clean filter and glass and pipes etc ?

Thanks dean


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside

Looking absolutely sex Deano. Nice one!


----------



## Deano3

thanks mate cannot wait to get some shrimp etc in therecan i ask how and when you clean ur tank and filter ? and also any tips on cleaning

Thanks dean


----------



## Deano3

found a few spots of black in the tank around the small rock is dark patch think might just be bba so will leave for time being should i stir the substrate with the black patch on ? also drop checker is very dark green does this mean i need more or less co2 ?

Dean


----------



## tim

I'd be aiming towards lime green to yellow while you have no livestock mate as for the algae try to syphon it out on water changes, looking very good deano


----------



## Deano3

Does that mean raise or lower my co2 ? Also if I try to suck out the Algie will lift all my substrate  will try to mix it

Dean


----------



## tim

Raise it mate, if you raise it and the dc doesn't get towards lime/ yellow then flow/ distribution is the issue, stir substrate and syphon off what's stired up try and get as much out as possible with daily water changes


----------



## foxfish

Make the most of not having any livestock & pump in the gas mate....


----------



## Deano3

wouldnt think it was flow in such a small shallow tank i have lilly pipes opposite each other hopefully not that, not sure if need to change the 4dk solution as when tank was empty i never changes for 2 weeks or so ? few more questions so i have to raise the co2 if dark green ? thanks fox fish currently at 1bps will ramp it up tomorro to 4-5 u think ? seems to be same colour all day every day, and doesnt seem to be much growth after a week bairly changed at all do you think due to lack of co2 also i seem to be getting air bubbles around the top of the water surface any idea ?

Thanks dean


----------



## tim

Trouble with co2 is it wants to rise up out of the tank mate, always found it harder getting correct levels in my nano which was shallow rather than my deeper tanks are you running your diffuser on the intake or outflow side of your filter ? Hairgrass doesn't grow to fast either in my experience of it, the air bubbles at the top could be co2 bubbles .


----------



## Deano3

how would u get rid of the bubbles ? i suck them up on water change ,i have now turned the bubbles up so hopefully changes couor also does everyone elses regulator fluctuate mine goes from 2 and half bar and keep going up slightly then back down so bubbles slow down and speed up constantly but doesnt bother me to much just hard to get acurate reading with bubble counter

thanks dean


----------



## tim

I've read a few people run the atomiser on the inflow co2 will get mashed up in the filter, giving less bubbles in tank, working pressure shouldn't fluctuate my reg stays at a steady 1 1/2 bar not sure what causes that mate


----------



## Deano3

Any one else have a reg that fluctuates slightly got it set at 2.5 bar but goes up an down slightly and bubbles slow then speed up, might turn pressure down but think will still do same anyone else's do that ?

Thanks Dean


----------



## foxfish

Take a look here !!   Why isn't this working? | UK Aquatic Plant Society


----------



## Deano3

Thanks for the link foxfish checked for leaks and non found so will investigate further tomorro, also ill post a pic tomorro, found a small film ontop of the water (oil like) i use 20l coolant containers that i have washed out over and over again so dont think its that any ideas ? also lots of the bunches of hair grass have a black hair like algie in so hopefully clears up, think going to give tank a good clean tomorro , clean rocks and level some parts of substrate and give glass a clean with cloth, dont think will have to clean filter yet will i   only been a week,  also might give the lilly pipes a little wipe

also dropping the water changes to every other day after tomorro when would you recomend dropping the lights slightly and increasing the photoperiod

Thanks Dean


----------



## Deano3

Thought would show some night pics with my ikea lamp, also cleaned lass and rocks with toothbrush













not much growing progress and regulator still fluctuating but will sort this week defently no leaks though as checked so not really sure what to check, also any answers on post above.

thanks Dean


----------



## Aron_Dip

Looking really nice mate.. With just a small light you get a load more character


----------



## Deano3

Aron_Dip said:


> Looking really nice mate.. With just a small light you get a load more character


Thanks mate that light I have seen on other journals and looks great for for a tenna,

Anyone any idea about the oil like film on water surface and black hair like algie in the hair grass or is it just because brand new set up hopefully will disappear , also when would you recommend cleaning filter out ? 

Checked for leaks on atomiser or reg and non found and still jumping about might disconnect bubble counter see if changes

Any help or comments welcome 
Thanks Dean


----------



## Deano3

Deano3 said:


> Thanks mate that light I have seen on other journals and looks great for for a tenna,
> 
> Anyone any idea about the oil like film on water surface and black hair like algie in the hair grass or is it just because brand new set up hopefully will disappear , also when would you recommend cleaning filter out ?
> 
> Checked for leaks on atomiser or reg and non found and still jumping about might disconnect bubble counter see if changes
> 
> Any help or comments welcome
> Thanks Dean


 
also hed the co2 apart tonight and my plastic nut cracked on bubble counter but superglued it and ok   even with nothing connected to the regulator it still fluctuates and no leaks coming from reg anywere, when i turn the bubble rate up its fine but i mean right up stream of bubbles, also founf bubbles slowing and building pressure stopping the flow at 2 bar turned up to 2.5 and moved fine pressure was too low but stil fluctuating anyway.

Dean


----------



## tim

Surface film can be removed with water changes or even lay kitchen towel on it then remove common on most setups mate and should go eventually, strange about your reg mate, mind I blew a bubble counter up once using an in tank atomiser that was at just over 3 bar put me off them to be honest.


----------



## Deano3

Lol bubble counter working now just the regulator issue getting on my nerves, set at about 2.5 bar and moves from 2 to 2.5 bar so bubbles speed and slow all the time but of turn bubbles up high it doesn't do that lol I can live with it but a bit annoying might post question on co2 section, thanks for help Tim and I know I hate fiddling with plastic I am too heavy handed


Dean


----------



## Ian Holdich

Don't get to focused on the drop checker and slight fluctuations. Monitor the plants and hardscape, these will tell you soon enough, is you don't have enough c02. Tbh, they probably would have shown signs of algaes already if this was a problem.


----------



## Deano3

Thanks Ian the plants do have dark hair like algie in middle of some of the bunches and the grass not separated, also it's the regulator pressure that's fluctuating up and down all the time so bubbles speed and slow down but not to bothered, when would you recommend upping photo period and how often should I clean out my filter ? Help been great thanks

Dean


----------



## Deano3

few update pics think starting to see growth after the middle of week 2



still find black algie in bunches of the hair grass and it is as one solid lump of grass and doesnt open into individual strands will this clear up ?




nice lime green drop checker





after the 2nd week should i change to water changes every 3-4 days as doing every other day this week ?
also how often should i clean out filter ?

Thanks Dean


----------



## foxfish

If it is not a problem for you, you can do as many water changes as you like or in other words the more the merrier!
If doing water changes is an issue for you them just do as many as you can!
Re the filter,I dont know how you have it set up but, I clean my mechanical sponge every week or every other week but be very wary of cleaning the bio media!!
I only occasionally rinse the media, I do this by tipping the media into my water change bucket while it is full of aquarium water during a water change.
Bare in mind some folk dont clean the bio media for years!


----------



## Deano3

Thanks for reply It has a basket of balls then a basket of cylinder shaped small pieces think that's the bio and then a blue mesh sponge in middle and white one on top, so think this weekend I will clean the sponges but leave the rest, just rinse and squeeze out in the water change water does that sound ok ? Will I need to bleed off every time ? 

Will keep water changes the every 2-3 days then 
Any idea about the black hair like algie ? You think just teething problems at first and will clear up

Dean


----------



## Ian Holdich

Black hair algae is exacerbated by low or fluctuating CO2. Either you're not running enough c02, I have always found that doing water changes with the lights on cause a little bba as well, even though this is an injected tank. 

Looking god btw, that grass is taking its time to get going!


----------



## jack-rythm

Ian Holdich said:


> Black hair algae is exacerbated by low or fluctuating CO2. Either you're not running enough c02, I have always found that doing water changes with the lights on cause a little bba as well, even though this is an injected tank.
> 
> Looking god btw, that grass is taking its time to get going!


Why is this Ian ? Why do you get it during water changes?

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Ian Holdich

It's due to that saturation of O2 in the water which will ruin the equilibrium of c02 in the water. When the lights are on obviously photosynthasis is taking place, so the c02 you need in the water becomes reduced. This is where you get fluctuations and this will exacerbate bba. Granted, it happens to a greater extent in non injected tanks, but ime it does happen in injected tanks if you chance the water regularly with the lights on. I personally change water before the c02 comes on and (touch wood), don't have any problems.


----------



## Deano3

I change the water after lights out but will the co2 all come out when change 50% water ? Also would you recommend extending my lights time , or photoperiod 

Thanks dean


----------



## jack-rythm

this is interesting, you saying its more likely to happen with low-tech tanks? I have always done water changes with lights on. I never really thought about this? But I have never experienced this problem in 2 years. is there something Im doing that counteracts this?


----------



## Ian Holdich

jack-rythm said:


> this is interesting, you saying its more likely to happen with low-tech tanks? I have always done water changes with lights on. I never really thought about this? But I have never experienced this problem in 2 years. is there something Im doing that counteracts this?



Every tank is different, and it's more likely to happen in low tech tanks when water changes are increased. 

@ Deano, if you're experiencing algae problems, you don't want to be increasing your photoperiod. Changing water after lights out is fine. Just out of interest have you added and shrimp or ottos yet?


----------



## Iain Sutherland

Deano3 said:


> I change the water after lights out but will the co2 all come out when change 50% water ? Also would you recommend extending my lights time , or photoperiod
> Thanks dean


 
It doesnt really matter when you change the water as long as its outside the co2/light period.
For as long as you are fighting algae in the tank never even consider upping the light duration or intensity, a better way to think is should i shorten the light period/intensity... 
Im not sure what your period is now but ive always found 6 hours to be a happy place even in a mature injected tank.
That grass should have some good roots now, if it were me id up the co2 a little and cut the grass right down to the substrate to ditch the algae, daily water change for a week or so and  it should grow back stronger with the additional co2 minus the algae holding it back


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside

jack-rythm said:


> this is interesting, you saying its more likely to happen with low-tech tanks? I have always done water changes with lights on. I never really thought about this? But I have never experienced this problem in 2 years. is there something Im doing that counteracts this?



Weren't you dosing carbon in the form of fizzy mineral water? That'll help. 

Minimal surface agitation in low tech tanks, where no carbon source is added, allows the water to maintain its co2 levels from atmospheric saturation.

Looking good dean, get that grass trimmed if you want to get rid of the algae, and then maintain a consistent level of co2, as Ian says, Im always careful about doing anything with lights on that will cause gas off. 

Trimming the grass will help it spread horizontally too mate. 

As for filter, i would leave it another  week, give bacteria chance to get hold, then clean out. You don't want to be getting rid of any muck till your up to full strength 


Lovely little tank though 


Nice work


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside

Iain Sutherland said:


> It doesnt really matter when you change the water as long as its outside the co2/light period.
> For as long as you are fighting algae in the tank never even consider upping the light duration or intensity, a better way to think is should i shorten the light period/intensity...
> Im not sure what your period is now but ive always found 6 hours to be a happy place even in a mature injected tank.
> That grass should have some good roots now, if it were me id up the co2 a little and cut the grass right down to the substrate to ditch the algae, daily water change for a week or so and  it should grow back stronger with the additional co2 minus the algae holding it back



Bugger, basically what he said  
I just took my time to write ha ha!

Nice one Iain, (notice the second  'i'? I'm very observant  )

It does get confusing when your both posting at the same time.


----------



## Deano3

Thanks a lot for the info very helpful here is pics with lights on this morning and you can see the algie and totally agree I am going to trim right down but here is pics before the trim














so i will trim in morning at the minute this i what i am doing

co2 on 10am
lights on 12pm
co2 off 4pm
lights off 5pm

water change every other day
dosing 6 days with EI
the co2 had drop checker nice lime green but still no perling and algie

firstly i have a question about the co2 after it is off and before the lights on in morning the drop checker goes dark green does this not matter or do you think it would be better on 24/7 or is it just a waste ?

secondly would you recommend changing anything or raising the lights ?

thirdly i am going to take your great advise and trim to substrate but hope doesn't take long to grow as i wanna start fishless cycling and adding some live stock but getting in routine now

and lastly still not cleaned filter yet so will do it this time next week so will clean the blue and white mesh in the aquarium water and leave the bio media is that correct

Thanks a lot for the great help 
Dean


----------



## Deano3

here after the trim most the the thick algie cut off and must have been stopping the grass growing as very thick and heavy anyway there are still odd strands but the clumps are gone is there a easy way to get the grass from tank once cut as was on for 45 mins removing with hands and a net, also any info on the post above or any recommendations would be great.also hope the algie doesn't come back as I have changed nothing since ?




Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Thanks dean


----------



## Iain Sutherland

If you change nothing the algae will likely come back dean, look to either increase co2 and distribution, raise your lights or even better both.  Dont get to focused on the drop checker, for as long as you have algae then there must be a problem with the light - co2 balance so ruling out co2 because of the DC is fool hearty.
If you do the above and deal with any algae regrowth daily by way of spot dosing liquid carbon then you should start to see improvement... the plants will tell you when its better.  In a few weeks you should introduce some amano shrimp to help you with the algae control


----------



## Deano3

Thanks Iain I agree I will up my co2 again just a little and raise the lights slightly , what do u mean about dosing liquid ? I have so flourish excel but not using it as co2

Thanks dean


----------



## Iain Sutherland

When ive suffered from algae in hair grass clumps like that it would often grow back with the clump, improving the co2 will help a lot but one of the best ways to get rid of algae is to harass it as much as possible until it gives up the will to live.  If you see it coming back in a clump turn off the filter and use a syringe to dose 1 or 2 ml of liquid carbon directly at it will kill it off.  Leave the filters off for 5 minutes so it has a chance to work.
In a few days the algae will change colour then amano shrimp will relish it...


----------



## Deano3

Ok I will up co2 a little tomorro morning and then when starting to grow back I will dose with flourish directly I to the infected area, also I will have to start dosing ammonia in order to allow me to get some shrimp when would u advise starting to do the fish less cycle 

Dean thanks again Iain


----------



## tim

Hi dean, you shouldn't need to add ammonia mate it will leach from your aqua soil which will be more than enough to kick start your filter, if it was my tank I'd heavily dose liquid carbon to kill off the algae then add some clean up crew in a week or so.


----------



## Deano3

Thanks tim I didn't know that so the ada aqua soil will release ammonia to start the beneficial bacteria ? y do I need to dose liquid carbon when co2 working does it carry out a different task ? and will the flourish excel do the job if I dose into the water should it spread ok and how much would you recommend dosing

Thanks Dean


----------



## tim

Hey mate, excel is a brand of liquid carbon, these products act as an algacide ( spelling ?) as well as being a form of carbon for the plants to use, dosed from a pipette or syringe straight onto the algae makes short work of killing it of in my experience best to leave the filters off for 5 or 10 mins when you do this it will also help with any shortfalls with your co2 levels and distribution if there are any, ammonia from the Ada soil will be more than enough to start bacteria colonies, maybe too much that's why most recommend 50% water changes daily for a week or two. You can double or even triple dose the excel while you have no livestock it only has a 24 hour life in the tank, but and this is just my opinion shrimp are very sensitive to liquid carbon and I would only does to manufacturers recommended dose once livestocks in hope this helps  
Cheers tim


----------



## Deano3

at the minute I can still see loads of the algie even at substrate level on the hair grass on most bunches I wont be able to dose on all of it in one sitting as would overdose the tank is that correct ? I will look at the back and see what the recommended dose is and use 4 times as much to dose at one time onto the hair grass will that be ok ?

Thanks dean


----------



## tim

That will be fine to overdose before adding livestock as Iain Sutherland stated with algae you just have to hassle it until it gives in whilst sorting out the issue that caused it to prevent it coming back. You can add tank water to the excel dose to give you more solution to dose at one time.


----------



## Deano3

Thanks again tim will keep doing it every morning dosing directly onto it, I  have upped co2 slightly and raised the lights a small amount hopefully it goes

will keep you posted

Thanks dean


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside

Nice one, Tims right, excel  overdosing will make light work of that algae. Combine this as Ian states, of raising the light and/or upping Co2.

When it comes to it, when adding the shrimp, leave the lights off and leave the solenoid off on the co2, then turn it back on (keep it low ish) and let the amano shrimp acclimatise to the levels, otherwise you'll lose them, by either them climbing out the tank and running ( they keep body composition out of water unlike cherries or crystals, and they can run up your arm or more like it, across your carpet! As my Wolfcub found, much to his delight, before i scooped up the amano and dropped him back in his tank  ).

Cheers,


----------



## Deano3

thanks for that mate will report back before then, glad I don't need to cycle tank, should I check parameters before get anything ? are amano shrimp best for algae ?  also I did raise the lights and up the co2 and dosed flourish this morning so hopefully combats the algae, also I was meaning to ask what type of dog that was mate looks lovely I love dogs always had German shepherds but when I got my own house I got a Blue Staffordshire bull terrier, will post a pic for you tomorrow 

Thanks dean


----------



## Deano3

algae still going strong and now co2 is constant stream of bubbles , realised yesterday none in tank and after investigating found my bubble counter had hairline crack and must have been not enough pressure into diffuser so ran pipe straight into it today but require one is there one anyone would recommend preferably a cheap one, that one was £10 and didn't last long

Thanks Dean


----------



## Deano3

planning my first filter clean tomorrow I am going to rinse the trays with aquarium water but should I replace the filter foam pads the white one and the blue one or just clean them with the water ?  also I am going to do a full tank clean I will clean rocks with toothbrush and clean my glass and what is best way to clean the lilly pipes ? little bit worried about cleaning the pipes as will have to remove the filter tubing   hopefully all goes ok should I heat with hair dryer before trying to remove ?

Thanks dean and also any recommendations for a decent but not expensive bubble counter would be great


----------



## Deano3

well update since done filter clean and full tank clean ( can imagine would be very difficult with shrimp etc in tank) I need to purchase a brush to clean the lilly pipes as even in bleach solution and rinsing still small amount in the end of gunk anyway here are some pics
before cleaning lilly pipes think the algae is contributing to the brown look of the tank





after










tank before





and after





various pics of the algae what doesn't seem to be retreating





















still dosing EI daily and been dosing 5ml of flourish excel daily and the co2 on from 10am-4pm light on 12pm-5pm also moved lights a little higher today anyone have any more help on the subject

Thanks dean


----------



## LondonDragon

If your bubble counter was cracked the CO2 levels wouldn't have been very good, also looks like the lilly pipe is breaking the surface with the flow, that will release the CO2 quicker, you have very very low plant mass and one of the most slower growing plants, that doesn't help, what you need is some floating plants to get rid of some nutrients that are feeding the algae and you need to keep that CO2 stable.


----------



## Deano3

do you think the problem is nutrients i mean too much feeding the algae ? should i inject less you think, and i am going to buy a new bubble counter this week and is there any plants you would recommend ?

Thanks dean


----------



## LondonDragon

Make sure your drop checker is lime green or even yellow (if you have no fish in there). The problem is 99% of the time CO2 related due to the amount of light. How much light you got in there? You have to remember shallow tanks need less light than normal depth tanks as the light penetrates much quicker.


----------



## Deano3

LondonDragon said:


> Make sure your drop checker is lime green or even yellow (if you have no fish in there). The problem is 99% of the time CO2 related due to the amount of light. How much light you got in there? You have to remember shallow tanks need less light than normal depth tanks as the light penetrates much quicker.


 well the drop checker is yellow after been on 3 hours or so lime green to yellow so not too bad, and the light is a large light that's why its so high its a hagen glow and has 2x24w bulbs a hagen power glo and a life glo but I suppose I could remove one of the bulbs if you think it would make sense but what one ?

Thanks again Dean


----------



## LondonDragon

If 2x24W makes my plants pearl on a 125l tank which is 50cm deep you can work out if you have too much light


----------



## Deano3

so would you drop one of the lights and which one the power or the glo ? and what height above the tank would you place it should I keep it 75cm above the tank , will one 24w bulb be fine for this size tank

Thanks dean


----------



## LondonDragon

Never used shallow tanks so hard for me to tell on how high you should be raising it, I would say 50cm with a single tube for a week and see how the tank behaves, don't reduce CO2 though.


----------



## Deano3

LondonDragon said:


> Never used shallow tanks so hard for me to tell on how high you should be raising it, I would say 50cm with a single tube for a week and see how the tank behaves, don't reduce CO2 though.


 
I will keep co2 the same and remove one of the bulbs, what one would be best to remove the hagen power glo bulb or the hagen life bulb and would you defiantly recommend removing one, I suppose I cannot raise lights anymore as basically at the celling so the only other option and plenty co2 so all I can do I suppose

thanks dean


----------



## LondonDragon

Don't think it really matters which bulb, go with the one that you prefer to the eye in terms of colour. hair grass is not really an high tech plant do it doesn't really need that much light.


----------



## Deano3

LondonDragon said:


> Don't think it really matters which bulb, go with the one that you prefer to the eye in terms of colour. hair grass is not really an high tech plant do it doesn't really need that much light.


 ok I will drop one off today and then keep you posted and hopefully start to see the algae disappear

will keep dosing etc
Thanks dean


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


LondonDragon said:


> what you need is some floating plants to get rid of some nutrients that are feeding the algae.


I agree with Paulo. Also in a shallow tank, with a large surface area to volume ratio, it will be difficult to keep added CO2 in solution (because there is a large surface area where gas exchange will occur).

I'm not a CO2 user, but shallow tanks will have levels of CO2 and O2 that are close to equilibrium with atmospheric levels naturally, so you may not need to add CO2, particularly for true aquatics. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Deano3

dropped a light off today and dropped lights slightly closer to the tank and carried out another water change, dosing as normal so hopefully starts growing some strands are very long going to be hard to control once takes off I think will keep you posted, also bought a spare FE today

Thanks dean


----------



## Deano3

as I said I have removed one of the lights and I think a lot of algae has gone now but still some behind rocks etc
here are some recent pics













from the above pic you can still see some algae still water change every other day and dosing 5ml or flourish and continuing EI dosing, but not happy with it, also the  grass gets very high and will take a lot of trimming but don't mind about doing that, want to fill in the blanks and the ground with something else another carpet plant maybe any recommendations ? something that's quite easy to maintain and doesn't grow high at all, want to add shrimp soon aswel getting bored of waiting to fill in lol

Thanks dean


----------



## LondonDragon

I would just rip all the out and replace it with this: http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/tropica-eleocharis-sp-mini-12grow-p-6279.html


----------



## tim

Good to see your getting on top of the algae deano, keep at it mate, acicularis does like to grow taller rather than spread IME mate, as Paulo said sp mini may be better option. Looking better though mate.


----------



## Deano3

I agree when I purchased I was told it was the mini hair grass but its longer than 5cm I might rip it out and order 10 pots or so of that will it not float to surface as there will be no established roots ? And how many pots u think ?

Anyone else think this is best idea ?

Thanks dean


----------



## Ady34

Hi Dean,
pleased youre getting over the worst of the algae, there seems to be some promising healthy green growth there now.
The grass you have looks very much like eleocharis ecicularis, which can reach 30cm in height ive found. It seems to be the easiest to grow however and needs weekly trimming to keep it in any shape. The new mini version is much slower....although George Farmer has a carpet in 10 weeks ...maybe its more down to the grower that the grass! Eleocharis parvula is a good choice as it is relitively undemanding and wont need such continual pruning as the ecicularis in your shallow tank.
One thing you could consider is mixing the varieties up a bit. Keep what you have and use it for accents at the rear to add height where needed around the stones. Maybe then add some e. parvula midground and try the e. sp. mini in the foreground/centre area. This way you can see what works best for you and may help in creating the look you want without huge amounts of trimming.
I would also get some shrimp in there, they always help in sifting through the grass which can be a detrius trap.
Stick with it mate, itll be a field of green soon  
Cheerio,
Ady.


----------



## Iain Sutherland

what ady said, move it back and fill the front with mini and a couple of other texture plants around the rocks.. ammania, stauro??


----------



## Deano3

I like what ady and lain said and I think that is best idea move all grass currently in the tank to rear then buy the short hair grass that londondragon linked me to
http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/tropica-eleocharis-sp-mini-12grow-p-6279.html
how many pots would you advise getting and also what are best shrimp to get and you think be best to go to local aquarium shop ? not sure were any are apart from garden center ones that sell fish lol

Thanks for opinions very helpful
Dean


----------



## Deano3

how many pots would you advise getting and also what are best shrimp to get and you think be best to go to local aquarium shop ? not sure were any are apart from garden center ones that sell fish lol

thanks dean


----------



## Deano3

also is dosing 6.5ml of micro or macro and 5ml flourish daily is that about right ?

and any help on above question would be great

Dean


----------



## Deano3

my 6 pots of tropica mini hair grass arrived and just wondering how many pieces to cut it into ? then will update with a pic

thanks dean


----------



## Steve Smith

I would separate them out into small bunches of maybe 10 or so stems and plant about 1cm apart.  Takes a while though!


----------



## LondonDragon

have a look at this post: #264


----------



## Deano3

well I broke into portions and I know I put too many in each group but I must have got around 20-25 per pot and didn't have time too go any further as in work early so bed time but here is some pics










pictures don't do justice of actually how many there is it took ages lol





I was impressed with the grass really good quality and you get so much f=more than I did with first pots that weren't tropica 1-2 grow so very impressed hopefully takes hold then I can buy more to fill the tank, one thing I noticed is when planting loads of individual strands raise to surface but not much of a problem anyway any comments welcome

Dean


----------



## Steve Smith

Yes, it takes ages but it can make a difference   I tend to like doing this when no one else is around and sort of zone out.  Almost meditative.


----------



## The Doctor's Companion

Here's a quick guide to Eleocharis sp mini that I was taught my Obi Wan.
I used an old portion that's been rotting away on my windowsill, so I didn't bother cleaning all the goo off - do this _thoroughly_ before you start dividing. You don't want those extra nutrients messing up your tank.





As you can see the edge comes off the rest of the portion in a nice string. I rip it off, no scissors.
Then, again by hand, I divide the edge and middle part in to pieces like this.



Then I fold the pieces into a compact little bundle - ideal for being handled with tweezers.






I'm not too anal, so I get around 20 bundles, I'm sure you can stretch it to 25 with little effort.


----------



## Deano3

I forgot to clean all the goo off but hopefully will be fine and I know u could go on all day separating into littler prices but happy with what I got will post another pic later turned up co2 to yellow drop checker should it be ok with the goo still on 

Thanks dean


----------



## Deano3

here is a better pic with the lights on will the goo just fade off the grass ? also hope this grass doesn't seem to go to nothing as the last bunch did but this seems much better quality



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

what you think
Dean


----------



## LondonDragon

Looking good  you still keeping the lights on the low side? Dosing ferts? Any LC?


----------



## Ian Holdich

Just be aware that goo contains high amount of nutrients, so if you have left a bit on, you might just want to do a couple of extra water changes over the next week.


----------



## Deano3

LondonDragon said:


> Looking good  you still keeping the lights on the low side? Dosing ferts? Any LC?


 yeah only 1 24w bulb and its high above tank will take pic tomorrow, and yeah still doing EI dosing daily and not sure what you mean by lc ?



Ian Holdich said:


> Just be aware that goo contains high amount of nutrients, so if you have left a bit on, you might just want to do a couple of extra water changes over the next week.


thanks ian thanks for that I am still doing water change every other day anyway so should that be ok ?

I honestly don't know were all my old grass went as never melted just went to nothing but hopefully with o2 and reduced light this one will spread

Thanks dean


----------



## Mick.Dk

Hi  Deano
Just to let you know, the "goo" is produced to give off nutrients on a long-term basis....... and that is what it will still do in your tank. Waterchanges therefore does help........but get as much out of the tank as possible, by ex. siphoning! In future remember to wash it off 
Mick.


----------



## LondonDragon

Deano3 said:


> what you mean by lc ?


Liquid Carbon like EasyCarbo


----------



## Deano3

Mick.Dk said:


> Hi  Deano
> Just to let you know, the "goo" is produced to give off nutrients on a long-term basis....... and that is what it will still do in your tank. Waterchanges therefore does help........but get as much out of the tank as possible, by ex. siphoning! In future remember to wash it off
> Mick.


I know first time used it so didn't realise but will know next time , will do water change later today u still think I should keep doing ei dosing ?





LondonDragon said:


> Liquid Carbon like EasyCarbo


Yeah still doing 4 ml or flourish excell daily that ok ? Looking forward to getting some shrimp in there in a week or so, how do u drain tank when shrimp in it ? I usually put a small pipe in and hover over the hair grass to get algae but will shrimp do the cleaning up so I can just put pipe in the top of the tank to drain

Thanks dean


----------



## Mick.Dk

You should give the 1-2-Grow's a little food, from the wery start, yes - as different to potted plants, they come with very little food-ressources.
Mick.


----------



## LondonDragon

Deano3 said:


> Yeah still doing 4 ml or flourish excell daily that ok ?


Once the algae clears you can ease a little on this, maybe only dose it 2-3 times a week.



Deano3 said:


> Looking forward to getting some shrimp in there in a week or so, how do u drain tank when shrimp in it ?


Just be careful, you could always drop the water into a net in the bucket, that way you can check if there are any shrimp there, I do that on my shrimp nanos.


----------



## Deano3

LondonDragon said:


> Once the algae clears you can ease a little on this, maybe only dose it 2-3 times a week.
> 
> 
> Just be careful, you could always drop the water into a net in the bucket, that way you can check if there are any shrimp there, I do that on my shrimp nanos.


 good idea mate I will do that ok will start dropping the daily dose to every other day soon but what shrimp would you recommend then best fro cleaning up etc and how many at first ?

thanks dean


----------



## LondonDragon

Nothing better than Amano shrimp, start with a group of 5-6


----------



## Deano3

Well just done full tank clean and filter clean grass seems to doing ok think I am going to buy some shrimp tomorro from pets at home, do they sell amano shrimp ? Once in I will get the drop checker lime green and how much water should I change and how often ? Currently doing 50% every other day but what would u recommend once shrimp in ?

Thanks dean and should I stop doing flourish but carry on dosing ei

Thanks


----------



## Deano3

well just added 4 amano shrimp will upload pics tomorrow, still algae in the tank have raised lights very slightly again, should I add fish food in or will they just eat the algae ?
also how often would you recommend water changes

Thanks Dean


----------



## Iain Sutherland

dont feed at all deano and try and add another 6 or more when you can, the bigger the amano army the quicker the battle. (1 per 5ltrs is the recommended amount with new tanks)
Id also continue to do as frequent a water change as you can tolerate as long as there is algae, shrimp wont care one bit as long as the water matches.


----------



## Deano3

Thanks for that mate I will continue to do water changes every other day but not as much water an will have to watch don't suck shrimp up, will do full tank clean weekly including filter etc, and will get more shrimp on weekend will they just survive off the algae ?

Thanks dean


----------



## Deano3

strange thing tried checking on shrimp and cannot find any and only a small tank  checked the top of filter and none there but nano lilly pipes are small anyway u think they could have jumped out of the water as only few mm from the top ? also I only lifted lid off my thermo and checked the media I never checked any baskets etc

could they be under rock as seen around that area 1-2 days ago but then I could only see 1 but none at all today keep checking but nothing
Thanks dean


----------



## thisisntmark

Oh no. I hope they are still there. Have they been active since you had them?


----------



## Deano3

only had since Sunday they were there and swimming happy and then yesterday could only find one and today seen none 

Dean


----------



## thisisntmark

Yikes. Someone more knowledgeable than me will pipe in I'm sure and help.

On a side note, this was one of the first journals I read on ukaps and partly inspired me to start researching the hobby more. Its been great to see all the ups and downs for someone new. And all the great discussion about your aquascape. Keep it coming. I've read this journal twice already and will again I'm sure when I get my own setup. Cheers. 

Mark


----------



## Deano3

thanks mark I am a total newb aswel still learning and trying to get it started and keep motivated but set backs like this set u back but will keep pushing on

good luck and thanks for kind words 

anyone have any idea were shrimp might be lol ?


----------



## Deano3

Found 2 of them at the other side of kitchen so pretty sure all jumped out within a day what can I do about this ? Don't want a lid as like the open top look , can I purchase fish or snails instead to eat algae but liked the shrimp

Thanks dean


----------



## tim

Hi deano, shame about the amanos mate they can be little escape artists, you could give cherry shrimp a shot I've not had any escape.


----------



## Deano3

like the amano shrimp but I like water close to the top but don't want jummpers, what do you think of the tanks with glass lids ?

any other way of stopping it

Thanks dean


----------



## Iain Sutherland

2cm is all you need to stop them escaping, all shrimp will do it.  Jsut drop your water level and go again... it may be worth double checking co2 etc has they are more prone to escape when unhappy.


----------



## tim

I'm contemplating getting a glass cover made for my 90cm to enable me to keep more variety of fish, your tanks fairly shallow if I remember maybe a glass cover is the way to go mate, amanos and fish would most likely do ok then.


----------



## Deano3

come to think of I cannot have glass lid as my lilly pipes etc and too expensive not to use and don't want to leave 2cm as tank only 18 then by the time use up 3-4 for substrate I simple don't have the room maybe 1cm or so and co2 is fine drop checker was dark green as actually had it too low, you think maybe some fish first and what fish would you recommend from p&h ?

thanks dean


----------



## Deano3

what fish would you recommend for my small aquarium ? or should I drop water level and get some more shrimp ? wanted a small shoal of small fish maybe rasboras

what do you recommend
Thanks dean


----------



## tim

Hey mate I'd be tempted to give neocardinia species a go I've not had any escape from the nano's I've run my 12 ltr is fairly shallow. Hopefully someone could offer advice on fish not very clued up on fish to be honest.


----------



## Monk d'Wally de Honk

Here's a (fairly) simple solution, have a perspex lid made to measure. It's very cheap, my simple version that fits on the braces of my aquarium was £8. Obviously it will cost more to have cutouts for pipework but not too much I'd have thought.

I used The Plastic People, who were quick and excellent quality.

Their clear as glass acrylic works out at £13 for a 4mm or £17 for a 6mm thick lid for your size tank with a couple of holes drilled. You can provide a design for them to work to. Clear Cut To Size


----------



## Deano3

thanks wally never thought of that but hopefully dropping water 1-2 cm will do the job but wont be getting this week as on backs and don't have time so hopefully weekend 
anyway here are some update pics









first planted with the tropica





and now





surprised actually I thought was thinning as millions on little pieces to surface from cutting with scissors when I added shrimp but now its stopped as no shrimp  but actually looks thicker and denser what you guys think? (will get some closer pics tomorrow) also need more mini to put around the back of tank just making sure this grew in ok.

also what recommendations for fish you have I want shoal of very small fish like rasboras



Thanks dean


----------



## jbirley

Sorry to hear about the shrimp  plants defiantly look like they are thicker to me though its starting to grow in nicely. on a side note does it not drive you mad that the tank is not centered on that stand that would drive me mad.


----------



## Deano3

jbirley said:


> Sorry to hear about the shrimp  plants defiantly look like they are thicker to me though its starting to grow in nicely. on a side note does it not drive you mad that the tank is not centre on that stand that would drive me mad.


 lol I only did that as lily pipes don't have enough room and bend into the tank but I could try play around see if I can get in centre as it does bug me to be honest the inlet fits but outlet into tank have atomiser on so awkward but will have play about this weekend I think

any recommendations for fish ?

Thanks dean


----------



## foxfish

Way hey mate, definitely looking better know!!


----------



## Deano3

foxfish said:


> Way hey mate, definitely looking better know!!


 thanks mate need to buy more now for the rear of the tank, what fish do you think I should buy that are small as I want a shoal of around 10-15 will get some more shrimp this weekend

Thanks dean


----------



## foxfish

I have recently become a killifish fan!
You can buy eggs from EBay & hatch them yourself, really good fun.... killifish | eBay eggs&_fscr=1


----------



## Deano3

Hi everyone been very busy lately not had time to post update also been a little discouraged as purchased 2 sets of shrimp and all jumped even when dropped water level 1cm   but done full tank clean today and now want to get back on track, my algae seems to have reduced now so glad about that, I am now going to do full clean every week so clean filter etc I found the white sponge pad on top of the filter media was quite dirty so squeezed out but when should I change this ? and I remember some people saying they never changed their small balls or the tube media so just ruffled around a bit is this right ? will get a picture up tomorrow of how the tank currently looks grass has grown nicely but not enough so will need more also thinking of buying some staurogyne does this plant stay small and any ideas of were to place maybe left hand side onto of the bank ? (still not looking full enough of plants) also need some fish as bored now of fishless  want a shoal of small fish any recommendations ? maybe tetras or rasboras ? also still doing daily dosing etc

sorry for not keeping the post going but back now and help greatly appreciated
Thanks Dean


----------



## Tim Harrison

It's flocking (wallpaper) great! Sorry...


----------



## Ady34

Hi Deano.
Bad luck with the shrimp mate. All jumping suggests something they dont like....what c02 injection rate are you currently running and are you using liquid carbon products still?
Staurogyne will look great as an accent perhaps clustered around the base of some of the rocks. It doesnt get too big and will be a nice contrast to the hairgrass.
As for fish...maybe celestial pearl danios (although maybe a little shy), or chilli rasboras? 
Cheerio,
Ady.


----------



## Deano3

yeah I agree currently only 1-2 bps only lime green drop checker and been dosing liquid carbon around 4ml daily but stopped recently as not much algae, think I will buy some more hair grass and some pots of staurogyne   thanks for fish recommendations, I want small fish so can have a lot I like those celestial pearl danios and chilli rasboras but I really like fish that are blue like neon tetras etc is there any small similar fish ? and is the starogyne easy to maintain ? will post pic later on mate to show progress

Thanks dean


----------



## Deano3

pics as promised and any help on above would be great

















thanks dean


----------



## Deano3

what you think you think staurogyne will look good and is there any small shoaling fish that look like neon tetras (also like green neon tetras are they small enough to have decent shoal)? and I will test my water tomorrow see if ammonia or nitrites etc high or low or what

Thanks dean


----------



## LondonDragon

Not sure about the fish but the tank is coming along nicely, glad you managed to recover from the algae


----------



## Iain Sutherland

Deano3 said:


> been dosing liquid carbon around 4ml daily but stopped recently as not much algae,


careful Dean, best to be algae free for a while before thinking about reducing co2 availablity. Its certainly a mistake ive made.... thinking all is well then increasing light, stopping LC etc only to be bitten again.
The tank is looking much happier now, will be great to see it bloom and grow in.


----------



## Ady34

Yeah agree with Iain there. Best to view liquid carbon as a food source for the plants rather than an algaecide, and as such treat its use with the same principles as pressurised gas regards consistency and any alterations. 
The plants will be used to the extra carbon availability so if you want to stop using it best to do it very gradually monitoring any plant health issues and adjusting lighting if necessary.
Cheerio
Ady


----------



## Deano3

Thanks for the info guys I have totally stopped dosing the liquid carbon last week or so and seems ok now, I also ordered 7 more pots of plants grass and staurogyne so should be here tomorrow, removed all the long grass as very thin and looked rubbish, grass seems to have stop thickening but back on top of it now and determined to get started now as got slightly bored of having no fish   dosed some household ammonia yesterday and took to 5 ppm then checked 24 hours later and exactly the same so going to start fishless cycling now ammonia wont harm the plants will it ? looking forward to getting all plants in and getting some fish

no beneficial bacteria take it that's why the shrimp jumped   but sticking with it now , will post pics when get new plants

Thanks dean


----------



## foxfish

Mate you don't want to be putting ammonia in your tank!!!!!!!!!!! it was cycled months ago!
Even before you filled it up the friendly bacteria was working & ever since you switched your filter on the tank was maturing you filter with dead plant particles etc.


----------



## Deano3

well planted all my new pots today so will upload a pic tomorrow, thanks for info fox fish but just a quick question I am unsure about, if it is cycles when I add 5ppm of ammonia should it not be gone within 24 hours ? because it didn't change for me at stayed at 5ppm ? I didn't add any today and going to check my drop checker tomorrow and make sure co2 doesn't need adjusted then hopefully this weekend if possible will get some fish in there as up to now its only been a garden  there is dobbies near me maybe they will have some chilli rasboras, also seem some neon tetras in pets at home said small in brackets but says grow to 4cmdo they always grow this big as think would be to big for my tank ?

also I have asked this question before but how often should I change filter foam pads (the blue and white ones) up to now I have just squeezed out and I know some people never touch the trays full of biological media any help on the question would be great.

Thanks Dean


----------



## Monk d'Wally de Honk

Black Neons can reach 4cm but standard neons normally max at about 3cm. Green neons are usually slightly smaller at 2-2.5cm.

As you are unsure of the bacterial load of your filter, I'd be careful to start with. Add a small shoal of 6 and carry out daily water changes for a week or so just in case. On your size of tank I probably wouldn't add more than 10 fish in total anyway, you could add the next 4 a week or two later. If opting for the chilli rasboras they are a bit smaller so maybe top it out at 12.

I also wouldn't add any more ammonia.


----------



## Deano3

I like the green neon tetras aswel will go have a look next weekend as never has chance this week, here is some planted picks upped my co2 a little and looking good












will keep eye on this week and doing water changes every other day
Thanks dean (stopped adding ammonia, hopefully bacteria in filter I just thought should go back to 0ppm form 5 in 24 hours)


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,
I should say straight away that I wouldn't ever add ammonia to a planted tank, <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/should-i-fishless-cycle-a-new-planted-tank.27103/> and I've never kept a non-planted one.


Deano3 said:


> I just thought should go back to 0ppm form 5 in 24 hours


Ammonia (NH3) is pretty toxic, but unless you added enough of it to kill all your plants and your filter bacteria, you can be fairly confident that you didn't still have 5ppm ammonia. Plant/microbe systems are very effective at biological filtration, and the large surface area of your tank would ensure that oxygen isn't a limiting factor.

The real problem is that testing for ammonia isn't as straight-forward as many forums would have you believe. Because it occurs as both a dissolved gas (NH3) and an ion (NH4+), dependent upon pH, most test kits measure "total ammonia nitrogen" TAN as NH3. It should say on your test kit whether it is a "Salicylate" or "Nessler" test.

There a number of problems with this, and the measured values may have little to do with the actual ammonia levels. If the test gives a green/blue colour? it is a salicylate based test ("_free ammonia reacts with hypochlorite to form monochloramine. Monochloramine reacts with salicylate, in the presence of sodium nitro-ferricyanide, to form 5-aminosalicylate_"). The efficiency of these tests declines over time as chlorine is released from the sodium hypochlorite reagent. 

Nessler reagent tests also have some problems, but are more stable, my suspicion would be that they aren't still sold due to the mercury issue? if it is a Nessler test it will give an orange colour.

We do some ammonia testing (as NH4+ with an ion selective electrode), but even then values are open to question due to interference by sodium (Na+) etc. Why use an ion selective electrode? because it gives you a more consistent result than the tests do. Would I make decisions based upon it? No, because it is still not reliable or repeatable.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Deano3

Thanks Darrel for that very complicated but great explanation ,took a few times reading lol, I am not adding any ammonia at all now, I am allowing my new plants to take hold and making sure no algae etc then be adding fish Darrel can I quickly ask you how often should I change filter foam pads (the blue and white ones) up to now I have just squeezed out and I know some people never touch the trays full of biological media any help on the question would be great ?

Thanks Dean


----------



## foxfish

Dean I don't really understand about the blue & white filter pads?
If they are the first stage of the filter then clean them in tank water every week if it is easy to do so or once every two weeks if not so easy!


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


Deano3 said:


> Thanks Darrel for that very complicated but great explanation


 The sound-bite would really be that test kits don't give reliable or repeatable results.


Deano3 said:


> Darrel can I quickly ask you how often should I change filter foam pads (the blue and white ones) up to now I have just squeezed out and I know some people never touch the trays full of biological media any help on the question would be great ?


I don't ever change the sponges, unless they are so distressed that they have large holes in them. I've got sponges that are 10 years old, and possibly some that are even older than that. I just put a pre-filter sponge on the intake, the advantage of this is that you can give it a rinse without opening the filter. I usually rinse the pre-filter sponge out every 10 -14 days.

Because of this I usually don't have any sponge inside an external filter. I have any out of Eheim "coco-pops", floating cell media, alfagrog, hydroleca or sintered glass/ceramic rings. The advantage of all these filter media is that they don't inhibit flow, I don't really care what the media is, all the media will have enough sites for bacterial activity. The really important point is that you need to make sure all the filter media remains aerobic at all times. Biological filtration is all about oxygen.

Have a look a this one: <Filter maintenance. How regular do you do it? | UK Aquatic Plant Society>

cheers Darrel


----------



## Deano3

thanks for that Darrel very handy thread never heard of pre-filter before on aquarium is there small ones and what is the main advantage of them and would you advise one on my small tank I already have a huge filter for the size tank, at the minute i have been just cleaning every 2-3 weeks but want a proper routine now so think i will clean filter every 2 weeks i will clean pipes and lilly pipes then i will open filter and rinse out the media pads in tank water and should i just rinse the trays of biological filtration in the bucket of tank water and move around a bit with my hand ? then i usually empty water out the the filter housing and re-fill with clean treated water what do you think of this does it sound ok

also i seem to get a lot of white bubbles around edges of tank any idea of how to minimise these ? i do 40% water change every 2 days at the min

Thanks again dean


----------



## Deano3

as to the surface film and bubbles I have just found a thread about film on surface saying up co2 and ferts so done that and also noticed a small amount of algae in the hair grass black hair like not much so hopeing that upping the co2 will get rid of this

Thanks dean


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,​


Deano3 said:


> thanks for that Darrel very handy thread never heard of pre-filter before on aquarium is there small ones


 You can have any size you like. I think some-one suggested the black "RC Hagen A1387 Fluval Edge Pre-Filter Sponge" as pretty small and in-obtrusive. I usually just sew up some filter sponge sheet to the size I want.


Deano3 said:


> and what is the main advantage of them and would you advise one on my small tank


 There are a number of advantages:

The most important one is that it stops organic debris, small fish and shrimps ending up in the filter. I want ammonia (NH3/NH4+) in the filter, I don't want anything else.
It makes maintenance much easier, as you don't need to keep opening the filter.
It allows you to position the filter intake in the stream of bubbles from a venturi etc. and the more oxygen we can get into the filter the better. If the filter doesn't have a pre-filter, air bubbles can build-up inside making the filter noisy and potentially developing air locks. With a sponge present air bubbles are retained (on the sponge) increasing residence time and allowing the gases they contain to dissolve.
Shrimps and small fish can use the sponge as a browsing surface.



Deano3 said:


> but want a proper routine now so think i will clean filter every 2 weeks i will clean pipes and lilly pipes then i will open filter and rinse out the media pads in tank water and should i just rinse the trays of biological filtration in the bucket of tank water and move around a bit with my hand ? then i usually empty water out the the filter housing and re-fill with clean treated water what do you think of this does it sound ok


I clean the pre-filter sponge fairly regularly (once a week), I only clean the pipes etc when they are dirty and flow is impeded. I clean the internal media every couple of months, and often it is pretty clean even after 6 months or so. I usually have some _Asellus_ and MTS in the filter media which may help.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Deano3

I like the fact that it would stop larger pieces of grass of fish food etc entering and lying in the filter , does it just fit over the inlet to filter , I have lilly pipes so don't want to cover them is there any other way to use a pre filter maybe in the piping to the filter ?, also when u clean filter media do you just rinse out the sponges and rinse out the trays ? And a quick wipe of impeller ? And lastly what is MTS and the other that you add to the filter media ? I really want my tank pristine and looking great, I am now experiencing some hairlike brownish algae on the ends of the grass strands do you think this will clear with me upping the co2 ?

Thanks again Dean


----------



## Deano3

What do you think the brown hair like algae in the tips of the grass is and rocks going browny yellow but that may be from when unsettled the soil

Dean


----------



## dw1305

Hi all


Deano3 said:


> does it just fit over the inlet to filter


 Yes, it just slips over the inlet. Eheim etc do a good large one for big tanks <EHEIM prefilter>, but it is a bit ugly, and a small black sponge is easier to hide in a Nano etc. MTS is Malaysian Trumpet Snails, I know not every-one likes snails but these are very useful.


Deano3 said:


> also when u clean filter media do you just rinse out the sponges and rinse out the trays ? And a quick wipe of impeller ?


 Yes.


Deano3 said:


> I am now experiencing some hairlike brownish algae on the ends of the grass strands do you think this will clear with me upping the co2 ?


I'm a CO2 agnostic, so you'll have to wait for some-one else to answer. "Yellowy brown" usually indicates Diatoms.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Deano3

thanks again Darrel for your help very useful, I also need to stop doing water changes every other day as becomes a bit tedious   maybe every 3 days or so lol I would have snails but think they would get out of the tank  cannot wait to get mine stocked then start thinking about a much larger 90-120cm tank  but want to master this one first lol

Thanks again Dean


----------



## Deano3

Hi all I am having a small problem with algae it is hair like and seems to clog up my hair grass and web from strand to strand not much at minute and camera not good enough to see it but will try to get a pic, I haven't changed anything lately except up my co2 slightly so yellow or lime green later on in evening any idea what this algae is and anything I can do to prevent it ? still dosing EI daily

would you recommend moving drop checker beside the outflow for better reading rather than opposite the outflow ?

Thanks dean


----------



## Deano3

anyone have any ideas as seems to be on ends of grass all over tank not in one specific part ?

upped co2 today so drop checker was yellow and still dosing micro and macro 6.5ml daily
Thanks Dean


----------



## tim

Hi mate, does it rub off with your fingers ? Maybe just need some clean up crew in there now Deano. Cherry shrimp or red ramshorn snails would be good in your size tank. It's generally co2/ distribution issues at the root of most types of algae.


----------



## Deano3

tim said:


> Hi mate, does it rub off with your fingers ? Maybe just need some clean up crew in there now Deano. Cherry shrimp or red ramshorn snails would be good in your size tank. It's generally co2/ distribution issues at the root of most types of algae.


hi tim thanks, I have upped my co2 today and drop checker yellow what do you thin about moving my drop checker or lily pipes, also i have had 2 sets of shrimps and all jumped  and such a shallow tank looks rubbish is drop water 1-2 cm, also worried snails will just slither over the edge  what you think ? what about Otto's

Thanks dean


----------



## tim

Hi mate, always worth moving the dc around the tank, do you still have your outflow opposite your inflow ? Could be worth having them next to each other filter could be removing co2 mist before it gets to the back of the tank. Ottos maybe a bit big for your tank maybe a few Pygmy Corries would be ok. Wouldn't think the snails would slither out I wish some would slither out of my shrimp nano  sorry to hear about the shrimp mate it may be a case of too high co2 for them even though the plants need it.


----------



## Samjpikey

Hey mate nice tank , 
Im in the middle of reading the whole thing ,
Anyway are you still using the same reg up a-164 ??


----------



## Deano3

tim said:


> Hi mate, always worth moving the dc around the tank, do you still have your outflow opposite your inflow ? Could be worth having them next to each other filter could be removing co2 mist before it gets to the back of the tank. Ottos maybe a bit big for your tank maybe a few Pygmy Corries would be ok. Wouldn't think the snails would slither out I wish some would slither out of my shrimp nano  sorry to hear about the shrimp mate it may be a case of too high co2 for them even though the plants need it.



Are corries small and good for algae ? Lol do you think snails wouldn't get out as no lid ? Will move drop checker when get in and my inflow and outflow are opposite one another yes, can have them side by side you think that would be better ?


Samjpikey said:


> Hey mate nice tank ,
> Im in the middle of reading the whole thing ,
> Anyway are you still using the same reg up a-164 ??



And yes using Same reg mate

Thanks dean


----------



## Samjpikey

I got the same reg , do you think the needle valve is a bit sensitive as in it has to be nearly closed to get the fine tuning ???  Seems a very sensitive needle valve to me , but not sure if mine fluctuates , the solenoid didn't work at all when new so i got sent a new one which worked , is it working ok for you ?


----------



## Deano3

Samjpikey said:


> I got the same reg , do you think the needle valve is a bit sensitive as in it has to be nearly closed to get the fine tuning ??? Seems a very sensitive needle valve to me , but not sure if mine fluctuates , the solenoid didn't work at all when new so i got sent a new one which worked , is it working ok for you ?


yes very sensitive mate only problem is fluctuation but apart from that seems spot on 

Are corries small and good for algae ? Lol do you think snails wouldn't get out as no lid ? Will move drop checker when get in and my inflow and outflow are opposite one another yes, can have them side by side you think that would be better ?

thanks dean


----------



## tim

Pygmy corries or hasborus corries stay small mate I've just added a shoal of pygmies to my 3ft tank they like to scurry over the plant leaves, will try and stick some pics up later.


----------



## foxfish

Dean I wonder if you still have a flow or C02 problem!
You have a small tank with no fish & the ability to turn up the gas, so you should be seeing very rampant growth with no algae!
Get the plants growing like mad before you stock up, do a few experiments, forget the drop checker & turn up the gas a bit more.
I would expect to see plants pearling & growing very fast....I think there is something amiss at the moment!
Do you have a bubble counter? how many bps are you feeding in?


----------



## Deano3

Yes have a bubble counter but like I say fluctuates so hard to say its quite fast thought not stop , would say 3-4-5 something like that lol will take a vid when I finish for you, should be ok to be very hight shouldn't it ? Never had periling yet so hope get it, thanks for that fox fish and I agree I am off not next week but week after and want fish in then as long as sorted

Thanks dean


----------



## foxfish

Well that sounds even more suspicious as at that kind of rate you could run a tank twice the size!
Perhaps the problem stems right back to the regulator! It might just be very poor circulation or is it possible you have a gas leak somewhere along the line?


----------



## Deano3

No gas leak checked before, diffuser hisses but checked before and no leaks, if u remember I do have 2 regulators so could try the other one? And I am going to move the inflow pipe next to the outflow tonight you think that's good idea ?

Thanks dean


----------



## Samjpikey

What Colour is the drop checker ?? Gotta be a flow/co2 distribution problem like fox fish said , 
Im no expert but If that's a two bulb Hagen glo , maybe remove one bulb and drop  it down to about 20 inches above substrate , that should give you about 35 macromols of par so medium light level, get the checker in the yellow , outflow and inflow definatley wants to be on the same side in my opinion , someone may disagree but that's what I would do


----------



## sa80mark

Does the tank get much sunlight / ambiant light ?


----------



## Deano3

Samjpikey said:


> What Colour is the drop checker ?? Gotta be a flow/co2 distribution problem like fox fish said ,
> Im no expert but If that's a two bulb Hagen glo , maybe remove one bulb and drop it down to about 20 inches above substrate , that should give you about 35 macromols of par so medium light level, get the checker in the yellow , outflow and inflow definatley wants to be on the same side in my opinion , someone may disagree but that's what I would do


 
Thanks a lot for the help I am going to move lilly pipes tonight and drop checker in yellow also the light is high above tank and only 1 bulb in I removed other one when had bad algae then disappeared until recently I am going to move pipes then I will upload a new pic and vid of bubble counter



sa80mark said:


> Does the tank get much sunlight / ambiant light ?


 
no not really doesn't maybe some but shouldn't get to much

also how often you recommend water changes every 2-3 days or even longer and when you carry out water change that day I usually do after lights out and I normally wait to add my micro or macro because I normally put in tank after work on day shift so 3pm and before work on backs so about 10am but my shifts are changing soon so be able to dose every day at same time but on water change day should I be dosing early or wait until water change done ?

thanks dean


----------



## Deano3

here are some pics of aquarium with lily pipes side by side,still dosing 6.5ml EI daily and here is a vid of fluctuation regulator, would you recommend trying my other regulator ? also next aquarium think I will buy hc instead as seems to spread very well

If you look closely at top of grass you can see small pieces of algae not bad but worse in middle of tank but cannot get good pic need a DSLR



















Night images










need to download a up loader software to get vids so will do it tomorrow

Thanks Dean


----------



## Lindy

Does that shape of Lilly outflow not reduce the flow?


----------



## Deano3

ldcgroomer said:


> Does that shape of Lilly outflow not reduce the flow?


 slightly just aims flow up and ripples surface, such a shallow tank so needed something like this

thanks dean


----------



## Lindy

Just wondered as I had been looking at these for my 30cm cube/Eheim ecco130 to reduce flow for my puffers. Does your hairgrass move in the water current?


----------



## Deano3

ldcgroomer said:


> Just wondered as I had been looking at these for my 30cm cube/Eheim ecco130 to reduce flow for my puffers. Does your hairgrass move in the water current?


hairgrass moves slightly but it mainly forces water to ripple surface for better aeration,

also I am noticing green algae in aquarium glass but unable to use cloth to wipe as rips out my hairgrass are the razor scrappers any good and any recommendations ?

any would you recommend trying other reg as still no pearling and still fluctuation

Thanks dean


----------



## Andy Thurston

Razor blades are the best for flat glass but not much use on bow front or acrylic tanks credit cards work well


----------



## tim

Hi mate, an old credit or bankcard is as good for scraping algae off the glass, looking at it your lily pipe could be gassing off the co2 before it reaches substrate levels, as yours is a shallow tank it's hard to keep the bubbles in, you could up liquid carbon dosage for a couple of weeks and if it improves things maybe time for a new lily pipe or glass or acrylic spraybar.


----------



## Deano3

tim said:


> Hi mate, an old credit or bankcard is as good for scraping algae off the glass, looking at it your lily pipe could be gassing off the co2 before it reaches substrate levels, as yours is a shallow tank it's hard to keep the bubbles in, you could up liquid carbon dosage for a couple of weeks and if it improves things maybe time for a new lily pipe or glass or acrylic spraybar.


 
not doing any liquid carbon dosing at the min tom, I could lower the lilly pipe as low as possible so little as possible escapes, the drop checker is still yellow even if losing some co2 would I still not get perling ?

Thanks dean


----------



## tim

Lower the lily wait a couple of weeks and see if it makes a difference, the plants can tell you more than your dc mate.


----------



## Lindy

I only asked about hairgrass moving as if its not moving much that might suggest the flow isn't strong enough. My plants move a fair bit, the dc kept only at emerald green and I've no algae. 
Hope you get it sorted as nice tank.


----------



## Deano3

ldcgroomer said:


> I only asked about hairgrass moving as if its not moving much that might suggest the flow isn't strong enough. My plants move a fair bit, the dc kept only at emerald green and I've no algae.
> Hope you get it sorted as nice tank.



Thanks mate , the filter is very strong and ten times what the tank needs but like u say maybe the lily pipe shape forcing the flow up and breaking it up so not as string on the bottom you think the normal style lily would work better ? Just don't want grass to be ripped up in this shallow , might be worth trying

Thanks dean


----------



## Lindy

I think try normal lily or make acrylic spray bar then control the flow with the taps on your eheim. Spray bars are ace for flow and acrylic tube is cheap and easily bought on eBay.


----------



## Deano3

ldcgroomer said:


> I think try normal lily or make acrylic spray bar then control the flow with the taps on your eheim. Spray bars are ace for flow and acrylic tube is cheap and easily bought on eBay.


 
I got a green spray bar when purchased filter I think also will I be able to use my up aqua inline diffuser with spray bar ? just while I try it I might use the ugly green one

Thanks dean


----------



## Lindy

I don't see why not. Other folk on here use inline with spraybar. I have the UP intank atomizer underneath my spraybar so inline can only be better.


----------



## Deano3

will give a try tomorrow see if flow looks better really want some fish in there in next few weeks but want to see good growth first if I had no algae I would add another bulb and up the co2 but worried would just make things worse

thanks dean


----------



## Deano3

well fit spray bar in middle of the aquarium facing the front on slight up angle so surface ripples, and flow seems much better most of the grass is swaying and co2 seems to be flowing all over, my grass doesn't look great the algae is spread about not to much but more than there was and grass isn't very colourful so hopefully this helps will check drop checker later and keep you posted only fit it last night so will take couple days to see if helping

Thanks dean


----------



## terry82517

Hi dean, are you not finding that co2 is escaping if your spray bar is directed at the surface? Cheers mate


----------



## Deano3

terry82517 said:


> Hi dean, are you not finding that co2 is escaping if your spray bar is directed at the surface? Cheers mate


just fit spray bar last night and just rippling the surface mate and drop checker ok so hopefully ok

Whats your advice on the algae should I leave spray bar going for a while and up co2 a little and also carry out water changes every 3 days or so ? also you think I should start dosing excel or just wait

Thanks dean


----------



## Lindy

I hope one of the experts answers you but if it were me I'd see if the flow helps and trim out any algae you can as it sounds like your co2 is quite high already. If you have a lot of surface scum I'd do large water changes, even 75-100%, especially as you have no livestock but do when lights out.


----------



## Ady34

Hi Dean,
I'd be inclined to agree with Lindy.
Your tank looks in a much better way than your previous algae outbreak so I'd leave it for a week or two with the spraybar configuration, some large water changes and good filter maintenance and see what happens....I know its not the best looking solution, but if it works you could look at acrylic which has been mentioned, or Apfuk now do glass spraybars  You know about maximising co2 whilst you have no livestock, (I know your keen to get some in but please resist for just a little longer) just get good levels for lights on. Personally I wouldn't supplement with liquid carbon as beating the algae without it will be far more valuable in learning about co2 light and distribution.
I think now there will be an improvement with the change in circulation as shallow tanks are more difficult to keep co2 in and perhaps the obubble lily was not getting flow to the substrate effectively. Your dc could have shown good levels of co2, however water movement through and over the grass could have been minimal which wouldn't have been efficient for nutrient supply and waste removal...either of which could have been a causal factor in the persistent algae problem. Grass is tight and traps detritus so flow through it is important.
Stick with it mate, things are definitely improving and I'm sure you'll be able to add some fish soon enough. If you need to dial back the co2 at a later date for livestock, and any algae reappears you could either reduce lighting intensity or supplement then with a little liquid carbon....but I'm sure the flow was your problem and keeping the grass clean will make the difference.
Cheerio
Ady


----------



## Deano3

Ady34 said:


> Hi Dean,
> I'd be inclined to agree with Lindy.
> Your tank looks in a much better way than your previous algae outbreak so I'd leave it for a week or two with the spraybar configuration, some large water changes and good filter maintenance and see what happens....I know its not the best looking solution, but if it works you could look at acrylic which has been mentioned, or Apfuk now do glass spraybars  You know about maximising co2 whilst you have no livestock, (I know your keen to get some in but please resist for just a little longer) just get good levels for lights on. Personally I wouldn't supplement with liquid carbon as beating the algae without it will be far more valuable in learning about co2 light and distribution.
> I think now there will be an improvement with the change in circulation as shallow tanks are more difficult to keep co2 in and perhaps the obubble lily was not getting flow to the substrate effectively. Your dc could have shown good levels of co2, however water movement through and over the grass could have been minimal which wouldn't have been efficient for nutrient supply and waste removal...either of which could have been a causal factor in the persistent algae problem. Grass is tight and traps detritus so flow through it is important.
> Stick with it mate, things are definitely improving and I'm sure you'll be able to add some fish soon enough. If you need to dial back the co2 at a later date for livestock, and any algae reappears you could either reduce lighting intensity or supplement then with a little liquid carbon....but I'm sure the flow was your problem and keeping the grass clean will make the difference.
> Cheerio
> Ady


 
thanks a lot ady I agree didn't really want to start adding liquid carbon as would eventually want to stop and by then it would be used to the extra ferts, think I will carry out 50% water change (also quick question when I carry out water change I don't put the pipe over the grass as usually rips it out close but doesn't touch is that ok?)
will leave the co2 and also fert dosing the same just see what happens with the faster flow  also my top filter sponge is looking very dirty so might change it, and I will also trim the grass tonight

thanks dean


----------



## Ady34

If you don't have a gravel vac to gently syphon the substrate whilst removing water I'd use your hands to 'waft' the hair grass pre water removal. This will get any detritus into the water column for removal with your water change and filter...it will all help rid the algae 
Cheerio
Ady


----------



## Lindy

Or you can use a pipette to jet water at the grass


----------



## Deano3

well carried out 60% water change yesterday and trimmed the grass the algae was on a lot of the grass but hopefully start to see improvement, I must say the light ada powder substrate is very annoying when cut grass often comes out so have to put back into substrate and next time think I will buy HC instead of dwarf hair grass and think would be less maintenance and seem some great spread off not much HC, also when I cut the grass found air bubbles leaving all the grass almost like pearling   I wish it as, I am going to purchase some wave scissors to make easier.

Thanks dean


----------



## Deano3

well good news since I fit the spray bar I now have no white bubbles on the surface a barley no surface scum, I had loads before water change Wednesday but none at the minute still algae on grass will it just disappear over time as cannot get some off or will rip out of soil will try spraying water at it but will disturb soil, the drop checker is yellow before lights on you think should drop co2 slights or leave for days ?

Thanks dean


----------



## Deano3

Quick update Firstly no surface scum but still algae on plants but don't know if any way to remove, with no surface film the spray bar must be working well and I still have no pearling   think I am going to try down co2 slightly so lime green instead of yellow during the day you think this is best idea

Thanks Dean


----------



## Deano3

anyone ?


----------



## terry82517

Deano3 said:


> think I am going to try down co2 slightly so lime green instead of yellow during the day



I think the general consensus will be "WHY would you do that"


----------



## Ady34

Yeah, I agree with Terry, unless your going to add livestock I'd have as much co2 as possible to try and resolve the algae issues.
When you add livestock maybe leave the co2 and lights off on the day of introduction to let them settle. Then start tweaking the next day. Plan to do it when your going to be around for a few days to monitor and adjust co2 and lighting accordingly. If your going to reduce your co2 injection rate for livestock, then also raise your lighting unit to compensate, you can always lower it back down when you have co2 dialed in again.
Oh, and don't chase pearling, you can have a healthy planted tank without it, mine hardly pearls at all 
Cheerio,
Ady.


----------



## Deano3

ok wont adjust but still algae in tank at the bottom of the hair grass last time it seems to stop gowth of all my hair grass also very small white pieces of algae but not sure if it is dead brown algae obviously I cut the grass but cannot get lo enough to remove all algae will it not just disappear over time ? hard to get decent pic without a dslr but will try tomorrow

Thanks dean


----------



## Lindy

Maybe you need to take out the hair grass and give good clean with a toothbrush?


----------



## Deano3

it seemed to take hours to plant all the grass to do that it would takes ages but if needs done suppose I will have to

will try upload a pic later
Thanks Dean


----------



## Samjpikey

Hey , 
Could you not get a plastic bowl and make a tiny hole in it , plae it over some hair grass , inject some excell and leave it in situ for a day and spot treat it ? Maybe that would kill off the algae ?? And repeat to other parts  
Cheers


----------



## foxfish

Dean have you tried turning up the gas yet?
Just feed the stuff in and see what happens. You can't hurt the plants.
All your symptoms just point towards not enough C02...make the most of this opportunity while you haven't got any fish & turn it up?


----------



## Deano3

Thanks guys and turned gas up and see what happens I know what the white algae is now its just algae and crap from the filter pipes coming out of spray bar and attaching to grass   lol but upped gas anyway and hopefully kills of the rest of the brown algae

Thanks dean


----------



## Deano3

well since upped the gas to constant fast flow and yellow bubble counter the algae doesn't seem to have gotten any worse but all the algae in bottom of the bunches of hair grass is still there and sure stopping growth as very very slow never seems to have grown for ages if anything looks less hairgrass , also the plants now have algae on leaves but this wipes off so will have to do all them individually, this is the same algae that I had problems with on the first set of hair grass and eventually seems barley no grass at all adding large amounts of co2 doesn't seem to get rid of it at all haven't tried removing manually yet but will tomorrow but that will be some labour intensive job but if that's what it takes I will do it  I am really keen to get this tank looking good as I am starting to get sick of this battle, I honestly don't feel like I am doing enough I change water every 2-3 days and cleaned out lilly pipes + filter sponges every week of so, daily I only check the temp is there more regular maintenance I should be doing as feel like waiting and waiting but nothing changing? or should I be doing any routine checks etc ?

also the very light substrate makes grass come to surface very easily even when trying to clean grass by hovering over with syphon it is already so close to surface of substrate it comes out and them plant deeper but makes look like less grass , I have moved lighting unit a little higher aswel but if I really want growth I know I need more light but know I cannot while battling algae anyway any help or suggestions of change would be appreciated

also should I add any livestock anytime soon to clean up only problem is shrimp keep jumping

Thanks dean


----------



## Samjpikey

Wow sounds like you are having a battle , I had one 24watt bulb (Hagen glo) over my 120 liter and still got some algae , but not a lot though . 
Errr maybe do a black out ?? Do a big water change over dose with excell then completely black out for 48hrs , no light what so ever then do another water change and drop photo period down an hour :/ . 
That's just my idea  
Cheers


----------



## Deano3

Samjpikey said:


> Wow sounds like you are having a battle , I had one 24watt bulb (Hagen glo) over my 120 liter and still got some algae , but not a lot though .
> Errr maybe do a black out ?? Do a big water change over dose with excell then completely black out for 48hrs , no light what so ever then do another water change and drop photo period down an hour :/ .
> That's just my idea
> Cheers


 
Thanks sam I might try a blank out as adding plenty co2 doesn't seem to work, so you think best bet would be to do large 70% or so water change black out and cover tank for 48hours with blanket or similar then another water change and check ? should I still add the co2 and should I not do EI for them 2 days and is it wise to overdose with excel and don't want plants to get used to extra ferts ?

Thanks for input mate


----------



## Samjpikey

I'm not telling you to do it but its just a suggestion , if the current algae outbreak is not getting worse but yet not going away , then maybe a blackout would kill off the remaining  algae which seems to be sticking around , I wouldn't run the co2 and just literally shut the tank down from light, with a good water change and normal dose of Ei and overdose of excell followed by a completely covered tank up for 48hrs then do a big water change dose excell again and reduce photo period , that's what I would do but you may want to clarify with someone else 1st as I am no expert  
That hopefully should rid of the algae to some degree and could give you somewhere to start again  
Hope this helps 
Sam


----------



## Deano3

anyone else have any ideas or think blackout is best bet ?

also anyone recommend any good aquascape books to read and look at pics ? was looking at Nature Aquarium: Complete Works 1985-2009 but very expensive at 30 pounds unless can find a second hand one on here want one that's easy-ish to understand and very informative and helpful

thanks dean


----------



## Andy Thurston

If theres no livestock double dose lc for a while. 
I dose 1.75ml into 35l which is more than double and my ember tetras and armano shrimp are fine


----------



## aliclarke86

Big clown said:


> If theres no livestock double dose lc for a while.
> I dose 1.75ml into 35l which is more than double and my ember tetras and armano shrimp are fine



Second that. I dose 3ml in my 60l

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 4 Beta


----------



## Deano3

Thanks for the advise everyone think I will do a blackout tomorrow and Monday, I will cover with blanket and turn off co2 and lights will still do EI dosing and dose 3ml of liquid carbon daily hopefully kills the algae, what should I do after the black out water change then I will add large amounts of co2 and keep carrying out water changes in order to get rid of the algae

this sound ok ?

(also any info on books what I mentioned in last post)

Thanks again Dean


----------



## foxfish

Dean, I still think there is a fundamental problem somewhere along the line with your setup ... sorry mate but something is still not right!

You have a small tank with no fish & you say you are pumping in co2 at a fast rate, well if that is the case your plants should be growing like mad with no algae issues.

I don't know why you are having problems but there has got to be a reason why your plants are showing the symptoms of poor C02...it has to be - the C02 is not reaching the plants due to poor flow or there is too much flow & the C02 is gassing off or the plants are not getting enough nutrition (ferts) or the c02 is not dissolving properly ... I don't know but something is not right!

Just look at other tanks on the forum, why is your tank not growing like mad?

99% of the time poor plant growth & algae related issues are directly related to lack of C02 being absorbed by the plants but, the solution is sometimes difficult because the tank houses fish & you can only turn up the C02 so much before you distress or even kill the fish!
In you case you can add as much C02 as you like, as much fertiliser as you like & just match the light to suit however your plants are not exactly going mad on the growth stakes & also have algae which still suggest not enough gas.
If you feel everything is operating properly & the gas is being properly dissolved and distributed around the tank, you have plenty of ferts then you must still have to much light or not enough C02?
Do you think you might have a C02 leak? how much fertiliser are you dosing, how big is your filter & how are you dissolving the C02?


----------



## Deano3

Thanks for the lengthy reply fox fish appreciate it, firstly I have checked for a co2 leak and none found checked regulator and pipes up to the up aqua inline diffuser I will take some pics of filter + co2 system when finish, I totally agree growth is very slow and barley at all, I now use a spray at which creates flow and drop checker yellow I know not to rely on it though, loads of bubbles in the tank from the inline diffuser, also the pipe from diffuser to the tank gets white algae like goo inside I think this must be from co2, the filter is enheim thermo and rated for much much larger tank I will have to look through firat pages to see exact model as I am currently at work, I dose 6.5 ml daily from ei so one day I dose micro and next macro and have 1 day break, the light is way way above tank and is 24w Hagen plower or glow I think it's power bulb

That's what I thought if my last was hight aslong as adding enough ferts and co2 should still be no algae I will get pics of whole setup when I finish only one problem I know of and that's the co2 regulator fluctuates but unable to find fault but I do have a spare I could try if we suspect this, I tryed taking vid of this a while ago but couldn't upload for some reason 

Your help is very much appreciated and really want to get to bottom of this never ending battle as I am determined to have thriving aquarium 

Thanks Dean


----------



## Deano3

unable to take pics as camera needs charged will upload tomorrow foxfish, also the filter is enheim pro 2324 external filter up to 250l

thanks dean


----------



## Deano3

here is few pics foxfish of tank done 2 day blackout but doesn't seem to have done much just doesn't look thriving










this is before black out struggling to upload a video onto image shack for some reason took a short vid of tank, terrible but you get to see flow and co2 etc, white stuff on hair grass in bottom pic is algae from inside lilly pipes but stay ontop of it now , need to  get this sorted you think maybe too much light even from were the light is sitting 1m above tank ? could change the 24w power bulb for the glo bulb?

thanks dean

Thanks deam


----------



## Samjpikey

Has the algae made any sign of deterioration ?? 
That's what you need to look for , it's not going to look thriving after a 2day black out but the objective was to try and kill off any visable algae
Cheers


----------



## ceg4048

I agree with foxfish. The OP needs to check the CO2 concentration profile by measuring the pH at regular intervals before and during the photoperiod. Liquid carbon addition is another good way to verify that the problems are CO2 related or not. I' not really a fan of lily pipes, especially those that point upward which blow CO2 straight out the window, but I understand the aesthetic appeal.

Cheers,


----------



## flygja

Deano3 said:


> anyone else have any ideas or think blackout is best bet ?
> 
> also anyone recommend any good aquascape books to read and look at pics ? was looking at Nature Aquarium: Complete Works 1985-2009 but very expensive at 30 pounds unless can find a second hand one on here want one that's easy-ish to understand and very informative and helpful
> 
> thanks dean


 

The internet is nice and free  Save every nice scape you see into your HDD and flip through them when you have time. Also good to have a text file telling where you found them so you can go back and look at specs, setup, etc.


----------



## Deano3

Samjpikey said:


> Has the algae made any sign of deterioration ??
> That's what you need to look for , it's not going to look thriving after a 2day black out but the objective was to try and kill off any visable algae
> Cheers


 
 no not really doesn't seem to have went from bottom of the hairgrass at all   was worth a try though.



ceg4048 said:


> I agree with foxfish. The OP needs to check the CO2 concentration profile by measuring the pH at regular intervals before and during the photoperiod. Liquid carbon addition is another good way to verify that the problems are CO2 related or not. I' not really a fan of lily pipes, especially those that point upward which blow CO2 straight out the window, but I understand the aesthetic appeal.
> 
> Cheers,


 
Thanks for your input mate so does the PH readings change as higher levels of co2 concentration enter the tank ? and I will do this and report back but how often should Itake PH readings , should I do it 2 hours before when co2 just comes on then every 2 hours or so ?

should I start dosing liquid carbon aswel and how much you advise 3-4 ml

and lastly I agree about lilly pipes they do aesthetically look good and I have removed the o-bubble one for now until get sorted and have the spray bar but that is also facing up slightly so don't get surface film, eventually might have to get the more common style lily pipe, thanks for your help and expertise its appreciated, I hope to get sorted and get my tank thriving ASAP

Thanks Dean


----------



## ceg4048

Dean,
		 It would be ideal to take readings from 30 minutes before gas on until gas off at 30 minute intervals. Then you will know what the unsaturated value is prior to gas and getting a datum point at lights on will tell you how effective your dissolution is. Again, "Ideally", assuming your KH is medium to low, there should be a 1 unit drop. from before gas on to lights on. We can only rarely ever achieve that without causing the CO2 levels to reach toxic levels further into the photoperiod. Your problem may "simply" be that you're not saturating the tank with gas early enough into the photperiod. This is actually the most common problem. If that isn't the cause then we have to look deeper at the setup.

Adding liquid carbon is a very simple verification of CO2 deficiency. If the plant health improves immediately as we start adding the liquid then we know that CO2 uptake is a problem. If it helps then you just keep using it until the gas is sorted and then it can be gradually withdrawn. Dose 2X or 3X the bottle suggestions because you have no fish and I think those plants have a high tolerance for liquid carbon. Carpet plants and most stems, even mosses, respond well to liquid carbon.

Your plants looked OK in the earlier stages so the present configuration worked at a lower plant mass, but it seems to have faltered as the plants got beefier. There is more blocked flow and the demand is higher due to higher mass. Filters may have gotten dirtier and more blocked over time. Try removing some media, especially if it's chocked full of media. Keep it unblocked with frequent cleaning.

Cheers,


----------



## Deano3

ceg4048 said:


> Dean,
> It would be ideal to take readings from 30 minutes before gas on until gas off at 30 minute intervals. Then you will know what the unsaturated value is prior to gas and getting a datum point at lights on will tell you how effective your dissolution is. Again, "Ideally", assuming your KH is medium to low, there should be a 1 unit drop. from before gas on to lights on. We can only rarely ever achieve that without causing the CO2 levels to reach toxic levels further into the photoperiod. Your problem may "simply" be that you're not saturating the tank with gas early enough into the photperiod. This is actually the most common problem. If that isn't the cause then we have to look deeper at the setup.
> 
> Adding liquid carbon is a very simple verification of CO2 deficiency. If the plant health improves immediately as we start adding the liquid then we know that CO2 uptake is a problem. If it helps then you just keep using it until the gas is sorted and then it can be gradually withdrawn. Dose 2X or 3X the bottle suggestions because you have no fish and I think those plants have a high tolerance for liquid carbon. Carpet plants and most stems, even mosses, respond well to liquid carbon.
> 
> Your plants looked OK in the earlier stages so the present configuration worked at a lower plant mass, but it seems to have faltered as the plants got beefier. There is more blocked flow and the demand is higher due to higher mass. Filters may have gotten dirtier and more blocked over time. Try removing some media, especially if it's chocked full of media. Keep it unblocked with frequent cleaning.
> 
> Cheers,


 
great help there clive thanks, bad news though I am just starting my 4 day shift pattern tomorrow so wont be able to do the readings test until next Thursday   but I will be dosing 3ml daily of liquid carbon until then and continue my EI dosing, tonight or tomorrow I will do filter clean by squeezing out the sponges and rinsing the media trays in tank water and cleaning pipes, does the pipe after the up aqua inline diffuser usually get white sludge into from the co2 ?

also totally agree plants went ok and since planted the rest its went wrong   but we will work it out, I remember when everyone said get a big  tank so you don't buy smaller one then have to shell out again for bigger one wish I done that lol I cannot wait to have bigger tank as don't think this satisfy me with large shoal etc but once sorted will start looking for larger one and sell this one just ish done it in first place but didn't want to spend fortune then get bored but if anything I love the hobby more now and know I will keep it up until have a stunning scape one day 

Thanks again clive
Dean


----------



## Deano3

well done large water change today and cleaned the glass and squeezed filter sponges out and cleaned piping best I could and also after I was finished I added 10ml carbon is it good idea to dose after water change as taking most of ferts out of water ? also dropped and smashed my nano gush drop checker  and I am sick of white powderlike film on surface of water but if I face spray bar up wastes the co2

Dean


----------



## Lindy

Hi, I wish someone who uses an up inline diffuser would comment on whether the white sludge is normal or not. I would be worried that something was coming out if the fe, that would certainly go some way to explain your struggle. It doesn't sound normal to me but I don't use an fe(had flo co2 cannister) and had an in tank up diffuser. Hope you get to the bottom of it.


----------



## Deano3

hi mate comes off easily with brush and cannot be FE as regulator to inline diffuser fine its just inline diffuser into tank so just the inlet pipe must be co2 reacting with water but maybe someone will comment if there's does it, going to have to order drop checker   be more carefull from now on,  also going to do the ph test what ceg recommended on Thursday

Thanks Dean


----------



## aliclarke86

My friend had a problem with strange sludge not long ago not with an inline defuser but was to do with co2 it did clear up. I will ask him about it for you mate 

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 4 Beta


----------



## foxfish

It would be great to see a vid of the tank with the gas on mate, is the tank really full of mist?


----------



## Deano3

yes is there any other sites rather than image shack to unload with as cannot seem to upload a vid and I will get one tomorrow

Thanks dean


----------



## foxfish

I use photobucket myself


----------



## Samjpikey

Just upload it to you tube and post the URL


----------



## Deano3

thanks  guys off on Thursday so will get vid but quality will probably be rubbish lol but will try

Thanks dean


----------



## Deano3

Hi all well been reading my ph all day and reaults will follow, firsly horrible white powder on surface and algae hasn't retreated at all and still carrying out water change every 3 days here is some pics sorry about quality only have nexus Coolpix so not the best lol





would you advice changing the sponge media














you can clearly see the algae on all the pics anyway PH readings started at gas on at 6.6ppm then within hour to 6.4ppm then stayed at this all day until just before gas off went down to 6.2 then back up to 6.6 within hour or so will upload vid asap uploading very slowly at the moment, is the PH mean to drop from say 6.6ppm to 5.6ppm by time lights come on ?

thanks and any input will be great
Dean


----------



## ceg4048

Dean,
		   Please stop referring to pH using the units of ppm. The ppm unit is an acronym for "parts per million" and has no relevance to pH which has no unit. It is just the logarithm of a simple number. That simple number is the number of free Hydrogen ions (H+) in the water. The calculation of pH goes something like this:  pH = log10[H+]	
Knowing that the pH is 6.6 you can solve the equation for the H+ count:
[H+] = 10-pH
[H+] = 10-6.6
[H+] = 2.5 X 10-7
That's the number of moles of Hydrogen so to get a real number multiply by the molar constant  6.02  X 1023
So [ 2.5 X 10-7]  x  [6.02 X 10-23 ] = 150,500,000,000,000,000 or, about 150.5 million million Hydrogen ions.

OK, so then your pH dropped to 6.4, so doing the same calculation, it can be seen that  the number of H+ increased to 239,660,516,673,205,344, or about 239 million million Hydrogen ions. That's only a 60% increase.

Ideally, you would want the number of Hydrogen ions to increase at lights on from 150.5 million million to about 1,505 million million. That's a 1000% increase, and that would show up as a pH of about 5.6 at lights on.

The increase in free Hydrogen ions is a direct indicator of how the CO2 is dissolving, because when CO2 dissolves, a small amount gets converted to acid and this acid, by definition liberates Hydrogen ions (H+) into the water column.

So this is part of your problem. I specifically did all this tedious calculation so that you get a better feel for what the heck the pH is and what it is that we are trying to accomplish. Taking a pH reading tells you what the rate of change in the Hydrogen content is, which in turn, tells you what the rate of change of CO2 in the water is.

The goal is to change the pH from the "pre-gas on" value to some value approaching a -1 unit pH difference. This is not always achievable without annihilating the fish. It's a very tricky business, but at lights on is THE most critical time of the day for CO2. That will make or break your tank. After about 4 or 5 hours of gas the plants really do not care so much about CO2. So it's possible to increase the injection rate and then to turn the gas off very early to avoid toxicity. When you turn the gas off early after a high injection rate, the residual CO2 content will feed the plants until the end of the photoperiod. Also, flow and distribution are primary factors, so if you want to avoid toxicity then you have to make sure that you have good flow rate and distribution techniques. That way you don't have to drive the pH so low because the flow and distribution will carry the CO2 more efficiently to the leaves.

In any case, forget about film and sponges for now. They are symptoms, not causes.

Fix your CO2/flow/distribution first. Make small incremental changes to the injection rate and/ or turn the gas on earlier while measuring the pH changes from gas on to lights on. Obviously you want to avoid killing the fish, so do this on a day off when you can be home to monitor the tank.

Cheers,


----------



## Lindy

Or alternatively this shallow tank would be great for a low tech tank with emersed growth like the 'bucket of mud' or 'chocolate puddle' but in miniature.


----------



## Deano3

ceg4048 said:


> Dean,
> Please stop referring to pH using the units of ppm. The ppm unit is an acronym for "parts per million" and has no relevance to pH which has no unit. It is just the logarithm of a simple number. That simple number is the number of free Hydrogen ions (H+) in the water. The calculation of pH goes something like this:  pH = log10[H+]
> Knowing that the pH is 6.6 you can solve the equation for the H+ count:
> [H+] = 10-pH
> [H+] = 10-6.6
> [H+] = 2.5 X 10-7
> That's the number of moles of Hydrogen so to get a real number multiply by the molar constant  6.02  X 1023
> So [ 2.5 X 10-7]  x  [6.02 X 10-23 ] = 150,500,000,000,000,000 or, about 150.5 million million Hydrogen ions.
> 
> OK, so then your pH dropped to 6.4, so doing the same calculation, it can be seen that  the number of H+ increased to 239,660,516,673,205,344, or about 239 million million Hydrogen ions. That's only a 60% increase.
> 
> Ideally, you would want the number of Hydrogen ions to increase at lights on from 150.5 million million to about 1,505 million million. That's a 1000% increase, and that would show up as a pH of about 5.6 at lights on.
> 
> The increase in free Hydrogen ions is a direct indicator of how the CO2 is dissolving, because when CO2 dissolves, a small amount gets converted to acid and this acid, by definition liberates Hydrogen ions (H+) into the water column.
> 
> So this is part of your problem. I specifically did all this tedious calculation so that you get a better feel for what the heck the pH is and what it is that we are trying to accomplish. Taking a pH reading tells you what the rate of change in the Hydrogen content is, which in turn, tells you what the rate of change of CO2 in the water is.
> 
> The goal is to change the pH from the "pre-gas on" value to some value approaching a -1 unit pH difference. This is not always achievable without annihilating the fish. It's a very tricky business, but at lights on is THE most critical time of the day for CO2. That will make or break your tank. After about 4 or 5 hours of gas the plants really do not care so much about CO2. So it's possible to increase the injection rate and then to turn the gas off very early to avoid toxicity. When you turn the gas off early after a high injection rate, the residual CO2 content will feed the plants until the end of the photoperiod. Also, flow and distribution are primary factors, so if you want to avoid toxicity then you have to make sure that you have good flow rate and distribution techniques. That way you don't have to drive the pH so low because the flow and distribution will carry the CO2 more efficiently to the leaves.
> 
> In any case, forget about film and sponges for now. They are symptoms, not causes.
> 
> Fix your CO2/flow/distribution first. Make small incremental changes to the injection rate and/ or turn the gas on earlier while measuring the pH changes from gas on to lights on. Obviously you want to avoid killing the fish, so do this on a day off when you can be home to monitor the tank.
> 
> Cheers,


Well firstly I am glad you did the calculations lol and I now understand what the ph is and how the co2 influences it, so from gas on to lights on should drop from say 6.6 to 5.6 my test kit is not very good and doesn't even go that low but if goes yellow I will know, the gas already comes on 3 hours early and bubbles constantly streaming out what other changes would you recommend maybe a normal style Lilly pipe to change flow ? And don't want to go low tech just want this sorted then upgrade unless someone wanna trade lol

Thanks dean


----------



## ceg4048

Well, save your pennies and get a pH probe like the one I mentioned in the thread Unknown algae - please help? | UK Aquatic Plant Society

Again, depending on the alkalinity of your water, it may not be necessary to drop the pH that low. If you measure KH to be much above 10 for example, then you may only need to drop the pH to around 5. High alkalinity kidnaps the H+ ions, so it masks how much acid is being produced, and therefore masks how much CO2 is actually being dissolved. That's why the dropchecker uses an acid free distilled water adjusted to a known low KH of 4, so that the color changes are predictable and consistent.

I was too lazy to browse through 21 pages of journal to see what distribution method and how much flow you have. I thought you already had one of those Gush lily pipes? Are you following the 10X rule? It may be that you need to use a stronger filter or maybe remove some of the media if the filter is chock full of media. That will improve flow. It's not clear how much light you are using. It may be as simple as reducing the light intensity for a while if you are over the top with lighting. As I mentioned before you have to play with the timing and injection rate. Maybe you can get away with a much higher injection rate 1 hour before lights on and then turn the gas off early to avoid overdose. Maybe 2 hours prior with a moderate injection rate increase. That is the art of CO2 injection.

I don't agree with the poster who thinks you should give up and go low tech. Shallow tanks are not automatically destined for CO2 injection failure. It doesn't matter what kind of tank you have, deep, or shallow, you'll have exactly the same problem.

Cheers,


----------



## Deano3

Thanks Clive I had a o-bubble lily pipe what forced water to surface and think was loosing lot of my co2 but the normal style one that forces it forward might be better ? Also I have one 12w bulb that very hight above tank as you can see in pics think the bulb is Hagen power bulb I think, the free is quite large for 36l tank sure its tater for 450l but will double check when get home, would you advise emptying out half the Medea out of the trays I have tubes in one and small balls in the other

Thanks dean


----------



## ceg4048

Hi Dean,
			 Yes definitely remove half the media. That will improve flow. The noodles are especially viscous. Their job is specifically to slow the flow so that the suspended particles fall out of solution and get trapped. You can even replace all that stuff with just foam or any cheap material like alfagrog.

It's always better if your pipe output forces water down. You need to get water down to the substrate, not up. That's like turning the heating on in your room and leaving the windows wise open...

Cheers,


----------



## Lindy

I didn't think he should give up, I just just felt no one could blame him for changing tack.


----------



## Deano3

thanks lindy not giving up keep fighting on lol I will remove half of media tonight when do tank clean and is there any other way to make the carbon dissolve better ? adjusting pressure at reg etc ?

also from the pics what algae do you think it is and also I have 1x24w not 12 sorry

Dean


----------



## ceg4048

I'm not really sure mate. It could be diatoms or could be GSA. If it wipes off easily it's diatoms, if not then it's GSA. I mean, there could be both and more in there at the same time.

Injection rate increase works the same as regulator pressure increase, so there is not much else to do other than to improve flow and distribution. If it was possible to extend the outlet pipe to the bottom and send the flow across the substrate that would work, but that isn't practical or aesthetic. If your filter output were strong enough you could even install a spraybar on either the left or right wall, but, again, that might not be what you are looking for aesthetically.

Cheers,


----------



## Deano3

ceg4048 said:


> I'm not really sure mate. It could be diatoms or could be GSA. If it wipes off easily it's diatoms, if not then it's GSA. I mean, there could be both and more in there at the same time.
> 
> Injection rate increase works the same as regulator pressure increase, so there is not much else to do other than to improve flow and distribution. If it was possible to extend the outlet pipe to the bottom and send the flow across the substrate that would work, but that isn't practical or aesthetic. If your filter output were strong enough you could even install a spraybar on either the left or right wall, but, again, that might not be what you are looking for aesthetically.
> 
> Cheers,


 

well clive tonight I have removed half (if not more) of the media in the trays and also I found the one side of the tray has the suction tube were the water travels up and found this to be sitting on a shelf were the heater comes out so restricting flow so turned that around so flow should be better, also I am currently using spray bar facing front of tank and plants and grass swaying a bit less at the rear but still must be stronger flow now, hopefully this helps out hugely.

also I don't have any fish in tank at the minute so not worried about gassing but co2 already constant stream out of bubble counter before entering my up-aqua inline diffuser so wont adjust my co2,would you advise moving light any more (practically on celling) lol and can I ask how the flow makes such a huge difference in regards to dissolving co2 ?


Thanks again
Dean


----------



## ceg4048

Hi Dean,
OK, well any increase in flow rate will help a lot. I didn't realize you had installed spraybars. I understand that you don't have any fish now, and so that great if you have no limits on how much CO2 you can add at the moment, however, at some point you will presumably add fish, so then you need to be able to satisfy the plants demand for CO2 while not killing the fish. SO that's why you need to think about how to solve this puzzle, at least for the future when you do plan to add fish.

Without knowing what the PAR values are it's difficult to say. If these are T5/T8 then there is a useful chart to give you an idea of what the PAR levels are, but if this is LED then only direct measurements can confirm the PAR, since there are so many different LED configurations. Of course you can use floating plants or other types of light barriers to reduce the intensity, but I think that the flow rates and injection rates are the primary factors.

Flow rate improves the mixing and dissolution of any gas within the reactor simply by energizing the mix, but that is not the primary advantage of high flow. Have a look at my explanations in these two posts and check the video for as long as you can stomach it:

inline devices | UK Aquatic Plant Society
Outdoor Planted Tank. (Vietnam) Possible? **Pics Page 4** | UK Aquatic Plant Society

So there is the flow rate which is a property related to energy and there is distribution which allocates the energy evenly across the tank. Both have to be addressed. The spraybars address distribution and the 10X rule addresses the energy requirements.

Cheers,


----------



## plantbrain

Amano shrimp, say 5-10 per 80 ,liters of tank is wise also, it'll clean a lot of things up.
Lightly vac the sediment surface without pulling up the gravel.

That and the other advice should help.

I suppose RCS will work and they breed well, but you need more of them, which is not an issue since they breed fast.


----------



## Deano3

I have had 8 shrimp in the past and all jumped within days   also filter is rated to 750lh so far more than enough, its not led lighting just a tube not sure if t5 or t8 but its very high you wouldn't think would be to much ? don't know y shrimp jumped the co2 was fine just lime green at the time (yellow all day at the min) talked about getting acrylic lid I suppose could do that to stop jumpers but never got any brackets with tank to hang lid on and were would I buy some ? then I would need to cut holes for lily pipes etc and I cannot get to close to substrate as the powder ADA substrate is very and gets sucked up and if get any were near grass just rips right out its very annoying 

Thanks dean


----------



## Samjpikey

Hey mate , just cut a bit of acrylic to the size of the tank , you shouldn't need brackets as it will just sit on top , as long as is 4mm it will sit firmly enough . You can cut for the lily pipes with a jigsaw or Stanley knife  
I have a nice peice of 4mm toughened glass I got from work , cost me £8 for 1m x30cm , the amount of dust that gathers on top is amazingly loads . I would hate for that to end up in my tank . By the looks of your pictures you have a Hagen glo lamp , t5h0 24 watt . How is the tank now ? Any improvements at all ? With growth or algae ? 
Cheers


----------



## Deano3

Obviously only sorted flow problem other day and nothing changed yet but as said a lid would be good as could get some shrimp in there were would I buy accrilic from ? I want to get to the cause but maybe it's sorted and just need the algae removed ? Maybe still too much light even at the height it is what you think

Thanks dean


----------



## Samjpikey

They do acrylic at b and q But its not the cheapest , just google acrylic sheeting or look on eBay I'm sure you'll find something somewhere . I think all the info you need on lighting charts is here on the forum , I'm sure if your not going over medium lighting then it should be ok , but with unlimited co2 and ferts and no livestock even with high lighting you should be ok well at least in theory  
Try this link  Lighting an Aquarium with PAR instead of Watts

Cheers


----------



## foxfish

Hi Dean, I know folk are trying to be helpfully but I don't know if they have read all the post on your thread?
I still have a feeling there is something  not correct with your co2 injection and I would not recommend stocking any creatures as you still might have play around with the gas.
The thing is you are not using that much light anyway so in my mind you just don't have enough co2, in a small tank it should be easy to get enough gas to feed the plants & get them growing really strongly.


----------



## Deano3

Thanks fox fish I am not stocking yet just an idea for future, I will do the ph tests now as has better flow when I get a chance, one question, when I sort the problem out should the algae start to disappear or will it hang about but stop growing ? 

Thanks again mate and I will eventually get livestock but seeming to take forever

dean


----------



## Ady34

Hi Dean,
I agree with Foxfish, there must be a fundamental issue somewhere with your co2.
Did you buy the FE full or have you had it filled/refilled?
Sorry if it has been asked before, but does the tank receive strong sunlight before the luminaire photoperiod?
Cheerio,
Ady.


----------



## Deano3

Hi ady enjoying ur thread on new na aquarium stunning I really want a larger deeper tank lol, anyway it's in kitchen but wouldn't say gets lots of sunlight maybe some trough large windows but could that make it this bad ? Only problem is no we're else to put it, I could keep blinds closed for week or so? I am wanting to do another ph test from gas on till lights on but on my 4 days in at the moment so unable but the algae is terrible been meaning to look at the par aswel but havnt had a minute, it's also very shallow and think any light would massively affect it but will look at page Clive posted earlier will look tonight


Also when I did 2 day black out dont think algae disappeared very much or would it take longer ? and just noticed today on my the FE were it is normally reading 50psi its 0 so think its empty, had it from begging and been on high bps so not to bad, only ran out today and don't have time to change so will leave lights off tomorrow then do tomorrow night

need sorted asap though as been running since November flooded since march-April and still no stock 

also I know clive said to get ph meter been looking any struggling to find a cheapish and functional one anyone got a link ?


Thanks Dean


----------



## Lindy

I had 8mm acrylic lid on my tank and it warped badly. Ended up getting ADA lid from greenmachine along with clips. Gap at end for pipes you could cover with cling film until they are settled in.


----------



## aliclarke86

Get in contact with a local glass company they will cut you a sheet of glass

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 4 Beta


----------



## Samjpikey

Like I mentioned above ^ you could get a nice polished Edge toughened glass lid for less then a tenner  ( i did) 
I'm a glazier and its not that much monies  
do what aliclarke said 
Cheers


----------



## Deano3

I know clive said to get ph meter been looking any struggling to find a cheapish and functional one anyone got a link ? and co2 still working even though left dial at just a mm above 0 ? will it take few days to be not working ?

wish someone wanted to swap a 90 cm deep 

Dean


----------



## Andy Thurston

http://item.mobileweb.ebay.co.uk/viewitem?sbk=1&nav=SEARCH&itemId=111114363952


----------



## tim

Deano3 said:


> I know clive said to get ph meter been looking any struggling to find a cheapish and functional one anyone got a link ? and co2 still working even though left dial at just a mm above 0 ? will it take few days to be not working ?
> 
> wish someone wanted to swap a 90 cm deep
> 
> Dean


Change the bottle anyway mate fluctuating co2 leads to more algae woes, I have to jump on the something's fundamentally wrong with your co2 system bandwagon so to speak you've had this set up since November and only used 1 fe ?? I used to go through 500g in 6 weeks on my 12 ltr due to it being shallow so times 4 24 weeks so just over 6 weeks for 12 ltr yours is around 30 ish so you should be going through a fe every 3 months or so I know not all tanks are the same but I've never started one without livestock so always had to ease back baffling mate I'd swap it for my 3 ft 45 deep if you want it


----------



## Deano3

well changed my FE but co2 reg still fluctuating slightly (barley though when cobstant flow of bubbles) and also even with better flow PH readings still the same  I could change my reg as have 2,see if stops fluctuating but not much at the minute just has constant flow of co2, running out of ideas

Anyone think a very small power head would help matter to assist with flow ?

Thanks dean


----------



## Deano3

checked ph today and seems a little better nearly yellow, not got a digital one yet ordered but not arrived, also I notice that you can hear air bubbles out of spray bar and see larger bubbles that go straight to surface obviously these are co2 but when add less co2 it doesn't have larger bubbles coming out also when turn down co2 fluctuates quite a lot at the regulator, have it set around 3bar

Thanks dean
anymore help or recommendations would be great


----------



## Deano3

anyone think might be worth moving spray bar lower to keep the bubbles low , still no ph meter   should be here soon to take more accurate readings, carried out water change to night and algae hasn't reduced at all even with larger flow and spray bar and co2 constant flow need to make dissolve better, any recommendation on what to do next ?

also how long should I try things 3-4 days  ? and should the algae start disappearing when get it right and I should have to physically remove ?

Thanks dean


----------



## tim

Really I think physical removal of the algae is the only way, once it's there it will only disappear if its eaten the only way to tell if the changes you make are improving things are if the algae growth slows or stops ie doesn't seem worse, I prepare to stand corrected


----------



## flygja

Deano3 said:


> Also when I did 2 day black out dont think algae disappeared very much or would it take longer ?


 
A 2-day blackout will not make a dent in algae. I go with 4-day blackouts. And even then, it won't make a dent in non-green algae like BBA in my experience.


----------



## Deano3

so realistically If I have fixed the problem I wouldn't know as the thick algae at bottom of hairgrass wont disappear unless I physically remove ?
need to wait for my ph meter coming to check it more thoroughly to see how much co2 getting dissolved, also will I see new growth even with thick algae on the hair grass or will I just start to see colour go greener ? and if anyone has any more ideas please let me know

thanks dean


----------



## Deano3

Ph meter arrived today one quick question it has powder to calibrate it should I use all the powder to calibrate then empty out and should I only have to do this once as only one sachet at the max ph

thanks dean


----------



## Ady34

Deano3 said:


> Ph meter arrived today one quick question it has powder to calibrate it should I use all the powder to calibrate then empty out and should I only have to do this once as only one sachet at the max ph
> 
> thanks dean


Does it not have instructions included Dean?
The one I have came factory calibrated to ph7. So I needn't do anything for a month. I also have a sachet of calibration powder included, the instructions in mine suggest to recalibrate monthly to maintain accuracy, using distilled/ro water and the powder mix.
You will have to buy more calibration powder to repeat the process. I'm not sure how long the mix will last once made, maybe 2 recalibrations?
Cheerio,
Ady.


----------



## Andy Thurston

I use liquid buffer from hydroponics shop and calibrate every 2 months. It only ever needs adjusting by .1 ph. These powders worry me, they have to be mixed properly and you can only use liquid 1 time. If you make it all up and use just enough to cover probe in a container just big enough to get pen in. I use 15 ml to calibrate mine in an interpet medicine measuring cup.


----------



## Deano3

Ady34 said:


> Does it not have instructions included Dean?
> The one I have came factory calibrated to ph7. So I needn't do anything for a month. I also have a sachet of calibration powder included, the instructions in mine suggest to recalibrate monthly to maintain accuracy, using distilled/ro water and the powder mix.
> You will have to buy more calibration powder to repeat the process. I'm not sure how long the mix will last once made, maybe 2 recalibrations?
> Cheerio,
> Ady.


 
it does have instructions just wasn't sure if you can buy more powder so didn't want to use all until I knew, should I put in bottle to calibrate in future aswel ? says use deionised water what can I use for this

thanks dean


----------



## Deano3

do you have to buy the deionised water from shops and is it cheap enough to purchase the powder when used ?

Thanks dean


----------



## Ady34

Hi Dean,
I'm new to ph meters and calibration methods too but a quick search shows several calibration solutions available on amazon alone in different types and quantities 
Amazon.co.uk: ph calibration solution

As for deionised water, you wont need it if you buy a pre mixed calibration solution as opposed to the powder mixes. You can buy deionised water in garages and even wilkos sell it If you decided to go that way. Think ill be purchasing some ready made calibration solution by a reputable company like Hanna 

How's the tank doing mate, any improvements?

Cheerio,
Ady.


----------



## Deano3

Ady34 said:


> Hi Dean,
> I'm new to ph meters and calibration methods too but a quick search shows several calibration solutions available on amazon alone in different types and quantities
> Amazon.co.uk: ph calibration solution
> 
> As for deionised water, you wont need it if you buy a pre mixed calibration solution as opposed to the powder mixes. You can buy deionised water in garages and even wilkos sell it If you decided to go that way. Think ill be purchasing some ready made calibration solution by a reputable company like Hanna
> 
> How's the tank doing mate, any improvements?
> 
> Cheerio,
> Ady.


 
Hi ady well I am hgv fitter so will get some deionised water from work we put it in batteries but thought might have been too strong but should be fine actually, I will keep it in bottle and re-calibrate every month or so and when run out will buy a ready-made one from link.

No tank looks bad ,no improvement, going to start doing 25% water change every 2 days I think , no point of turning gass up as already very high bps any other recommendations to help with dissolving the co2 ? flow is already strong (700lph and removed most of media) unless I try a normal style lilly pipe but currently got spray bar and they are usually best for flow but getting stuck now and very unenthusiastic with water changes etc but relly need a solid plan and really want fish in by next few month been running for ages now and still no fish .so think 25% every other day then once every 6 days do filter clean and pipe clean.

you not think fish would eradicate the algae and maybe its just algae left and stopping the grass from growing? also would love to see some nice colours the repens arnt to bad but algae on leaves but greener than the grass 

Thanks Dean


----------



## Deano3

Hi everyone not going well the tank has a horrible white skin ontop Even after just 2 days if you touch it pieces come off and fall to bottom, been dosing daily and taking ph  readings as follows (thanks for advising me to buy a digital ph meter clive its so much easier)

10.am 7.8
11.20am 6.7
17.00pm 6.4
20.30 6.8

I have been working last 4 days so my  better half been taking various reading for me gas on is 10am lights on 1pm and gas off 5pm lights off 6pm.
feel like fighting a battle I cannot win, the  algae is still at bottoms of hair grass and some stringy algae in the grass, flow is quite strong with 700lph filter and gass on constant flow with DC always yellow, only thing is maybe 24w light still to high ? would the algae disappear in hair grass on its own or would I still be there until fish eat it ? just thinking maybe its stopped progressing  but still hanging about if anyone has any more ideas please share , just wish I purchased the 60p deep tank

Thanks dean


----------



## ceg4048

Hi Dean,
			Of course you can win this. I'm assuming that by lights ON at 1PM the pH is between 6.7 and 6.4 right? So that's good because the pH drop is around 1 unit. Normally, CO2 related algae doe not go away by itself.  You can mechanically remove it using a toothbrush to snag, twirl and pull. This indicates that distribution to the substrate is a problem. The white scum is also indicative that the plants are not able to use that CO2.

Didn't you mention that the light fixture was raised to reduce the intensity? What was the distance?

Cheers,


----------



## Deano3

thanks clive just puts you down as seems to be taking much longer than other people and still no livestock  lol will check ph more tomorrow for more precise readings as I am off and can check every hour or so,if I even touch thehair grass it pulls out of substrate and its hard to get back in and the top of the tank is 115cm from light (45 1/2 inches) and its 1 x 24w hagen life glo here is some pics
film on surface




close up of algae but hard to make out but colours are blooming like should be




thanks dean


----------



## ceg4048

Hi Dean,
			 Every tank is different mate. Every one of them is a Rubik's Cube. Sometimes you're lucky and things line up. Sometimes you're not lucky. 46 inches is a long distance, so really that shouldn't be a problem. AS strange as it seems, this sounds like a distribution issue, even though a shallow tank should be at an advantage when it comes to distribution. You have to find a way to force the flow to the substrate. The scum should actually help to retain CO2 as it block gas transfer across the surface, but it is also a result of CO2 deficiency, so this is part of the same problem, not something new or abstract..

Continue to do frequent water changes.When you do the water change, try to ensure that the hair grass is exposed to air as much as possible. You can even linger with a very low water level and allow the grass to slightly dry, then add water. When the water level is a few inches above the grass you can add Excel with an eye dropper or syringe over the hairgrass. Make sure the filter isn't running and slowly squeeze out the liquid so that it settles on the grass. Do this just before lights on. The purpose of all this is to pump up CO2 availability. The more often you can do this, the better, until we can figure out how to improve distribution.

Cheers,


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## Deano3

I will continue 25-50% water change every 2 days only problem is cannot do before lights on due to work but I can add liquid carbon before work so around 6.30am few things firstly how long should I leave filter off ? I could set it on a timer.

secondly in such a small tank how much should I dose daily and how many pieces of hair grass should I add the carbon to ? so if I can dose 4ml daily how much should I add to each grass section ? should I cover much as possible and move across tank over the week ?

also thought I would add I am going to clean pipes and clean filter sponges every 6 days and dose 5.5ml daily EI dosing and also the spray bar is only 27cm long so doesn't cover whole stretch of tank but don't really want to keep spray bar forever anyway would eventually like and lily pipe, and how are we going to find out how to get better distribution ? sorry for all the  questions just want some lovely small fish in a algae free aquarium  one day 

Thanks dean


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## Andy Thurston

Give it a 3x daily dose of liquid carbon till you sort the cause. Spot treat a small area each day and you'll soon learn how much area each dose will kill.


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## foxfish

So the mystery continues .. It appears you are supplying enough co2 or at least the water you are testing seems to have significant PH change.
The light is defiantly high up!! If you did not have the algae issues then I would of said it is to high!
You are dosing EI so that is covered....just the flow left...maybe?


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## Deano3

foxfish said:


> So the mystery continues .. It appears you are supplying enough co2 or at least the water you are testing seems to have significant PH change.
> The light is defiantly high up!! If you did not have the algae issues then I would of said it is to high!
> You are dosing EI so that is covered....just the flow left...maybe?


 lol i hope but strange as such a powerful flow, dosed 3ml this morning but only done 3 pieces of grass lol its hard as cannot see it in the tank, its going to be hard to do as much grass as possible and also how long should i leave the filter off for when add liquid carbon

thanks dean


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## Andy Thurston

How many litres does tank hold?


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## Andy Thurston

If it helps i'm currently dosing 2.5ml(as much as i dare, with ember tetras, corys and amano shrimp)thats about 3.5x dose in my 35l tank. In your position with no fauna i'd be tempted to dose even higher. Anything above 2x stops cherry shrimp etc from breeding so is an early sign of too much but plants can cope with much higher concentrations than fauna so dont be too worried about harming them. Increase amount of spot dose slowly to allow a greater area to be covered. Ill have a look into toxicity levels for plants and get back to you. As far as i know its only riccia and vallis that hate liquid carbon but i'm sure someone will correct me if they've had a bad experience with any other plants.


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## Lindy

I'd be tempted to lift all the hairgrass and clean all the algae off, remove any dead leaves and then replant.


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## Aron_Dip

ldcgroomer said:


> I'd be tempted to lift all the hairgrass and clean all the algae off, remove any dead leaves and then replant.


I did that very thing to my hair grass. I also socked them in excel and brushed them with a tooth brush and re planted.. 

Sent from my HTC Desire C using Tapatalk 4


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## Deano3

Hi everyone been thinking and I am thinking about having a re-scape and maybe removing my hair grass and getting some Hc  instead and plant it with flooded and maybe get some Sumatra wood not sure exactly what style I would like but I would like to keep the reps as they look good, my co2 is now ok and hope the with fresh start and some fish and shrimp in there would be ok, been that long just a bit bored of this scape what you think ?

Thanks dean


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## foxfish

I think you deserve a change mate, in some ways it will be a shame to admit defeat but the hobby is ment to be fun so if you want a freashstart just do it.


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## Andy Thurston

As clive said earlier co2 related algae needs cleaning off. I wouldnt be bothered for cleaning hair grass either so rip it up


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## Deano3

thanks guys is there anyway to kill the algae off that's in substrate or should it be fine when I mix it about and any ideas for scape ? island style  scape or layout of rock and wood with the wood coming out of the water something like this WP_20130211_023_zps7d96fabb.jpg Photo by riceball7 | Photobucket

and would like a HC carpet also think the hair grass even mini is to high for such a shallow tank and would require constant cutting, you think a HC carpet would be easy enough to maintain and look after ? any other recommendations is welcome like maybe getting rid or getting better longer spray bar

Thanks Dean


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## Andy Thurston

Buy acrylic pipe from ebay and make your own. Itll cost about a fiver. We made one and put 2.5 mm holes 60mm apart.
I dont know how you would clean algae on the substrate(I removed the little bit i had in my tank with tweezers and spot dosed with lc). Hc is good but given the right conditions it will need cutting every 2-3 weeks. Its growing like a weed in the tank in my signature. You can buy 11cm pots from underwatergarden on ebay for about £7 posted just search "aquarium in vitro" and you will only need one in your tank

Good luck
Andy


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## Deano3

Thanks for your help andy I seen someone else buying there's and they are huge and seem very good, yeah that's more like it at that price rather than spending £40 yeah think spray bar is best for flow the tank is 60cm what size spraybar you recommend ? you think glass lilly would take me back to worse flow ? looking at wood on green machine but hard to see how it would look in tank lol you think Sumatra wood and my rock then is way to go, getting exited thinking if fresh start now I am off Saturday so if get everything sorted I will crack straight on then you think maybe some mosses on the wood and anyother recommendations for pants etc ?

also whats best way to totally clean the clas and get rid of water marks before re-flood

Thanks dean


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## tim

You should be able to siphon the substrate with the algae on out and bin it mate, vinegar should get the water marks off the glass just rinse well after, I admire your patience with this tank mate I would've stripped it down months ago, good luck with the restart Deano


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## Andy Thurston

Spraybar size the full length of tank and what ever size fits your filter hose really. I used 2.5mm holes as a starting point with the intention of opening them up .5mm at a time but was happy with flow from the 2.5 holes so I left them. 
As for the lilly pipe i personaly would only use it for an island style scape but others use them with great effect. 
1m of clear acrylic costs about £3 on ebay so its definately worth a try. When you fit spraybar angle it slightly down as i feel it helps drive the co2 to substrate level


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## Lindy

I'm about to chuck a bunch(aprox 3-4 tropica pots worth) of lilaeopsis Mauritiana out as the member who said he was going to pay for it last sat hasn't been in touch at all and I have a jug full of fissidens to go in my tank. Its coming out today, about 3-4cm tall, no algae. Yours for postage if you want it.


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## Lindy

I have a home made acrylic spraybar and I attach it to the tank using clear zip ties and clear suckers with a hole. All bought on ebay.


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## Deano3

ldcgroomer said:


> I'm about to chuck a bunch(aprox 3-4 tropica pots worth) of lilaeopsis Mauritiana out as the member who said he was going to pay for it last sat hasn't been in touch at all and I have a jug full of fissidens to go in my tank. Its coming out today, about 3-4cm tall, no algae. Yours for postage if you want it.


 
I like the look of the lilaeopsis Mauritiana could be a great background plant for this tank as only 18cm tall, says it is medium to high light is HC require higher light than hair grass ? and agree think I will use spraybar with this tank, going to look for piece of wood like one in pic i want Hc carpet maybe some longer grass like the one u listed behind and maybe a little bit of red colour in the tank aswel but defiantly interest mate and will pay postage, going to rip out all grass on Saturday from mine and clean tank and move all rocks etc

anywere you recommend for purchasing Sumatra drift wood (says its Manazanita wood on the net) around 40-50cm long like in the pic ?
something similar I want



eventually cut to around this size



anything else i should do wile no grass etc going to drop substrate level slightly aswel (not much just a little)
Dean


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## tim

The wood in your first pic is manzanita, aqua essentials usually stock a selection of Sumatran driftwood though.


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## Lindy

Pm me your name/address and I'll post tomorrow then pm you what it cost.


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## Lindy

I spent hrs looking through green machines redmoore rooot. You just have to have to look at all the angles.


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## Deano3

looked for ages and found interesting piece I could chop and make fit hopefully lol does anyone ever keep interesting wood they find on beach etc can you do that if boil it ? anyway this weekend maybe Saturday going to remove all hairgrass and remove all rocks drain water level until at substrate re/arrange soil etc and rocks and hopefully wood here fit that then clean glass with vinegar on cloth then plant repens and then fill await till Monday for hc then plant that does anyone think should clean some hair grass and maybe re-plant a small amount also any other plant recommendations for some colour variation hopefully can have lower the lights down so get more grown with hc maybe even 2x24w or just 1 lower down

thanks dean


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## tim

If you can be bothered to clean grass go for it, you can even plant some in a propagator and grow it on emersed for your next project may need artificial light come end of autumn though.


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## Lindy

I would lower your lights but just use one bulb to begin with. It'll make it easier to get on top if any algae that appears, then you could add the second when you are confident. It would mean you could probably start with 1or2 bps and not waste so much co2. Amano also recommends putting in amano shrimp in within weeks to cope with any algae that does appear. Your filter should be mature so keep it running while you rescape and you can add shrimp within a week if your co2 isn't too high.


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## Deano3

ldcgroomer said:


> I would lower your lights but just use one bulb to begin with. It'll make it easier to get on top if any algae that appears, then you could add the second when you are confident. It would mean you could probably start with 1or2 bps and not waste so much co2. Amano also recommends putting in amano shrimp in within weeks to cope with any algae that does appear. Your filter should be mature so keep it running while you rescape and you can add shrimp within a week if your co2 isn't too high.



Sounds great hopefully get cracked on next week as do t think anything arriving today and not ordered plants yet going to order 1 large pot of hc and keep the repens but need some taller plants for back of tank and maybe some easy to maintain reds etc and ideas mate ? Maybe some moss on the wood just want this one to work an hope doesn't have same problems like you say I want livestock early on and hope don't get shrimp jumping again but will keep co2 low like u say

Thanks dean


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## Samjpikey

Hey mate , I'm using the same reg as you and mine fluctuates a bit , I've put it down to the needle valve so I'm ordering one from aquaessentials and will let you know if that cures the problem , gutted about the current scape but look forward to see what you do next  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Deano3

well received some nice lilaeopsis from lindy today but not fully ready to start a new tread yet also received a parcel but next door as I was out and not home yet so imagine its my wood, going to order some Hemianthus callitrichoides any other recommendations please for some colour that's relatively easy to maintain etc and maybe some moss for the wood also some height would be nice and this is only 13 clear acrylic can fine of anyone got any cheaper please let me know  13/10 Clear Acrylic Tube (13mm x 1.5mm x 750mm) Plastic Plexiglas Perspex Pipe | eBay

thanks dean


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## Andy Thurston

http://item.mobileweb.ebay.co.uk/viewitem?sbk=1&nav=SEARCH&itemId=300935483615

1 mm bigger same bore though

Andy


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## Deano3

Thanks sandy ordered pipe how do u cap the end , silicone something same sizi in lol ? Any recommendations on moss or any other red easy maintain plants please

Thanks dean


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## Andy Thurston

I stole an end cap off my fishing tripod but you can buy bungs online, i thought about blagging a bung manufacturer into sending a free sample by saying i was looking into buying 1000 for a job and wanted a sample to see what they looked like on my product. I wouldnt glue a bung in place because it makes it harder to clean. Could you use the bung from your shorter spraybar.


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## Lindy

I silicone a bit of Perspex sheet that I had.


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## Deano3

That's right any I will have one in my enheim spray bar lol need plants ordered as just ordered hc what you recommend ? For colour and what is easy moss ?


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## Andy Thurston

I dont know about moss but in your shallow tank i think Alternanthera reineckii 'Mini' would work for colour


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## Deano3

I love the look of that plant Andy will see we're sells it or post add in wanted section but more likely get moss from there any moss recommendations welcome

Thanks again dean


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## Andy Thurston

You can get it from 
1-2 Alternathera Reineckii 'Mini' - Aquarium shrimps plants aquascaping London

They also sell mosses too. That should reduce delivery costs


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## Deano3

ok so hopefully plants etc arrive tomorrow and next day going to remove hair grass tomorrow and remove rocks etc then hen plants arrive drain tank to substrate and clean glass with  spone and make damp in vinegar but need to refill after that as repens still wanted so then re-scape and plant with new plants drop light anyone any idea how much to drop the light ,want livestock within few weeks really hope shrimp don't jump again 

Thanks dean


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## Samjpikey

Hey man just to let you know I've done away with the up a-164 reg , I'm pretty certain that the fluctuations will give me problems , I may be wrong but that could add towards your algae problems . I suppose we don't know for sure but if your reg is anything like mine then the fluctuations lead to being a perfect candidate to the algae  
Hope this helps 
Cheers 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lindy

I had the up-165 and never had algae at all?


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## Lindy

My light was never as high as you started with so that may have allowed for imperfections


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## foxfish

Well lets see how the new set up goes but I have my suspicions too!


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## Deano3

yeah we will see but need some shrimp etc in asap to help with the matter just don't know if they jumped because of the shallow last time but hopefully only 1-2 bps of co2 will do so should be fine  looking forward to starting new thread and a fresh start

thanks so much for all your help everyone

anyone have any idea on what height to start the light off at ? maybe half way from were it is now ? but HC demands higher light

going to have spraybar practically length of tank minus a small amount to be  able to get filter pipe out and have facing slightly down at front of tank only a small amount but not breaking the surface so don't loose co2, even is wood any few tall plants get in the way it shouldn't matter as sould have much better flow around the tank

Thanks dean


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## Deano3

also any idea how I can get a 90 degree right angle from end of spray bar out of tank ? as hard to get pipe in without kinking ? ordered 13mm acrylic and have 13mm pipe only thing I can think is buy 13mm angle piece and put small piece of pipe in-between spray bar and angle ?

something like this  Plastic Barbed Connector Tube Joiner Hose Pipe Fitting Straight T Elbow Y Mender | eBay

Dean


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## Andy Thurston

We had the same plumbing problem in dans 120 wood and moss tank and ended putting spraybar on the front but thats no good in an open rimless tank. You could use 3 90 bends


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## Lindy

I used the crook that came with the eheim but there is an international ebayer that sells acrylic crooks. A member on here has the full set inlet,outlet and spraybar from this seller.


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## Deano3

more info on crook would be great and my HC arrived today so might start new thread tonight or tomorrow so happy about that also got 5 free clay pelt balls but I will be dosing micro and macro u recommend putting in substrate anyway ?

Thanks dean


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## Lindy

Which crook? Will try find post later but eheim crook  was attached to spraybar with bit of eheim hose


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## Lindy

I can't find the post/journal that used acrylic inflow/out flow and spray bar. I also can't find it on ebay but I remember when I clicked on the link the poster had put up I thought how obscure the description was. Aquarium plant food uk stock uk made 'cascade' glassware that do glass inflows to go with their glass spraybars. Bit expensive tho but maybe you could use the eheim one for now.


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## tim

Make your own crook out of acrylic with a heat gun and pipe bending spring.


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## Deano3

yeah will find my eheim one for now hope spray bar arrives tomorrow so can get set up  well pics and new setup and new thread coming tomorrow also need idea for what height to set lights

Dean


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## Lindy

You make it sound so easy Tim! By the time you've bought enough acrylic to make a few mistakes you may as well cough up for a glass one.


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