# Dry Start Method - FAQ anywhere?



## magpie (17 Jun 2010)

Dear all

I'm going mildly mad (madder?) trying to find Tom Barr's original article/FAQ/Sticky on DSM (Dry Start Method). I've found his article on fusing DSM and low-tech/low CO2 which is interesting, but nobody, anywhere, gives links to the original thing. I've searched the Barr Report and Google and got nowhere. I'm assuming this is my wholly useless searching skills - so if anyone else has any better luck, or has a link saved, could you send it this way, please? 

many thanks

mx


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## Garuf (17 Jun 2010)

I don't think there was ever a FAQ as such? I'm certain it was called a new method for starting a tank without algae on Barr report.


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## wearsbunnyslippers (17 Jun 2010)

http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/3361-New(-)-methoid-to-make-a-nice-rug-of-HC-before-you-add-water


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## NeilW (17 Jun 2010)

My old bookmarked link isn't working so maybe its been removed or moved elsewhere?


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## magpie (17 Jun 2010)

Thanks, guys.... first rule of aquascaping... 'Learn your method'... 

and nobody mentions sand, and whether it'll go into some kind of horrible sulphuric mess while we wait and watch the grass grow... 

/sigh

me? Impatient? 



m


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## ceg4048 (17 Jun 2010)

What's the big deal about DSM? It's not as if it were rocket science. You just grow the plants the same way they are grown in the nursery. I don't get the sulphuric reference to sand (is that an inside joke?) but why don't you just ask your questions and we'll try to answer them?  

Cheers,


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## magpie (18 Jun 2010)

OK - the people I talk to in real life haven't done this, so there's a degree of insecurity - the main problem is that, because I didn't understand what I was doing - I started moss at the same time as the Hemianthus cuba, Pogostomon helferi and Staurogyne sp.  - and there's a suggestion that the H.cuba particularly, might rot if I keep 100% humidity, which seems to be what the moss likes.  Clearly I shouldn't have done the moss yet, but it's superglued, so while not entirely irreversible, I'm not altogether happy with ripping it off...

so - question is -  can I keep going w high humidity?  Should I? or better not? 

and

tap water (high phosphates, high nitrates, but as you pointed out high in sodium)  - or rain water better? If rain water, should I be putting in some TPN+ or anything of that ilk? If so, how much?

and

stem plants?  Worth it? OR not?  TGM supplies plants that have been grown immersed for quite a while, which would seem to defeat the object somewhat - but 1-2-Grow are definitely emerse, so could try some of those (largely to see what happens, tbh...)

end of questions (For now)

oh yes, except sand - hydrogen suplphite pockets happen in un-moving, but damp sand - don't they? So if I have a largeish area of sand, am I at risk of creating these? 

ta muchly 

mx


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## NeilW (18 Jun 2010)

magpie said:
			
		

> I started moss at the same time as the Hemianthus cuba, Pogostomon helferi and Staurogyne sp.  - and there's a suggestion that the H.cuba particularly, might rot if I keep 100% humidity, which seems to be what the moss likes.  Clearly I shouldn't have done the moss yet, but it's superglued, so while not entirely irreversible, I'm not altogether happy with ripping it off...
> 
> so - question is -  can I keep going w high humidity?  Should I? or better not?



If your that concerned with humidity then you can get hold of a cheapo hygrometer which they use in vivariums for a couple of quid from your local P&H just to give you a rough idea.  70-80% is good to aim for.  Personally I don't bother now and just go by my common sense and feel how humid it is in the tank and adjust the size of the vent in the cling film to adjust.  Recently where we've had nice warm weather its  easy to keep the humidity up and if it gets too hot in there I just open the cling film further (I'd say its now only covering 3/4 of the top of the tank).  Mold is also a sign that its too humid and is a sign your doing something wrong.

With my setup I've been half flooding it daily/every other day/when I remember which fully saturates the soil and brings fresh oxygen through the system so that way I know that its moist.  I mist it every now and then but the main thing I try and stay clear of it looking too 'wet'



			
				magpie said:
			
		

> tap water (high phosphates, high nitrates, but as you pointed out high in sodium)  - or rain water better? If rain water, should I be putting in some TPN+ or anything of that ilk? If so, how much?



I'd use whatever you want as long as its chlorine free.  Currently I'm partially filling with 5 litres of de-chlorinated tap loaded with 0.5ml of TPN+.


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## ceg4048 (18 Jun 2010)

magpie said:
			
		

> ..stem plants?  Worth it? OR not?  TGM supplies plants that have been grown immersed for quite a while, which would seem to defeat the object somewhat - but 1-2-Grow are definitely emerse, so could try some of those (largely to see what happens, tbh...)


I think you might have these definitions mixed up. A plant is considered emmersed if the leaves are growing in air. This is the form that aquatic plants spend half their time in during the dry season. Most plants, including Tropica plants are sold this way. So if you place these in the DSM tank then they should just carry on as long as the roots have access to moisture. A plant is considered in the submersed form if it's leaves has been growing underwater. There is a huge difference, so if you are being supplied with submersed plants then it's not a good idea to suddenly place them in an emmersed environment such as a DSM tank, although some plants can handle this shock better than others.

The whole point of a DSM tank is to cycle the sediment, especially if you are using sediments known to leech ammonia. ADA Aquasoil is notorious for this but some of the newer substrates may exhibit some of this. It's the cycling of the sediment that determines whether a tank is cycled or not. Everyone focuses on the filter bacteria alone, but this completely misses the point. It's the sediment that determines the maturity of your tank, not the filter, which can only handle nitrification of the water column. Poor or low sediment bacteria causes ammonia spikes, driving instability and poor nitrification. This is what gives rise to algae we see on tank startups. If the tank is kept un-flooded, then there is no algae and the ammonia excess in the sediment becomes mineralized. The bacterial populations are given a chance to build. If the sediment is stabilized, then when you do finally flood the tank it is then already "cycled". No ammonia issues and algae triggers are then suppressed. Fo ADA AS users, no leeching of ammonia into the water column.

The second advantage of the DSM is that carpet plants, which are famous for their poor adaptability going from emmersed to submeersed and their very slow propogation underwater, can be grown much more easily in the emmersed state. So the idea is to allow the carpet plants to multiply, send out roots (so you don't have the difficulties keeping them rooted underwater) and establish a connection with the sediment. Carpet plants are therefore much more robust by the time you do flood the tank and you'll have a chance for them to cover the ground without the die-off and losses typically associated with planting day.

With these two issues in mind, you can see that the addition of stems is not all that important, but their addition is not that much of a big deal either. Add emmersed stems, or crypts or swords if you want.

The humidity issue is also not really a big deal. You don't want the plants to dry out and you want to avoid mold so just keep it under controll by varying the coverage using cling film or whatever. Using a spray bottle and misting the plants regularly will do the trick. It's not that important at this stage what the water parameters are like so just use tap. If you're using Aquasoil then there is no need to add nutrients to the spray bottle but if you're using sand or other inert substrate then you can add a little to the mix. I wouldn't go through the trouble of semi-flooding. Just keep things moist an the plant roots will do the rest.


			
				magpie said:
			
		

> oh yes, except sand - hydrogen suplphite pockets happen in un-moving, but damp sand - don't they? So if I have a largeish area of sand, am I at risk of creating these?


Hydrogen Sulphide (H2S) is a product of poorly aerated sediment. This means that the normal nitrification occurs like this: 
NH4=>NO2=>NO3  This can only happen if the bacteria have access to Oxygen (O) within the sediment. If there is no Oxygen then bacteria look for other substitute elements, such as sulphur, which is normally abundant in sediments. 

If your plants are growing though, then they are producing Oxygen and the Oxygen production is sent to oxygenate the roots. The Oxygen then escapes into the sediment. Therefore H2S is not an automatic result of using sand. In fact it has nothing to do with sand. It has only to do with the presence (or lack thereof) of Oxygen. This ought not to be an issue in DSM. I mean, this is the whole point of DSM, to oxygenate the sediment and to remove the ammonia...

Cheers,


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## chrisfraser05 (18 Jun 2010)

some good reading there!

Might try growning my HC emmersed when it gets here to get a good carpet going


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## magpie (18 Jun 2010)

Clive - thank you - see journal in my sig for pics of the tank....

or see here: 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			





Front view a week ago, just after planting - by now, by far the happiest and best-growing bits are the HC on the large dragon stone - which are thoroughly thriving and growing fast. The rest isn't dying, which is about as good as it gets at a week in, I think... 

so:

I have large areas of unplanted sand. The rest is Colombo Flora-Base, which is, I gather, pretty much identical to Oliver Knott's soils, just cheaper. It has a mild ammonia spike, not a huge one like ADA soils. So it's not completely planted and the sand isn't planted at all, but is still wet, which is what's leading me to imagine HS.

that apart - I was just beginning to understand the idea that half the idea is cycling the tank already.  Which is why Graham's idea of 'put in hardscape and water and start filter (_sans_ plants or lights) probably works just as well, except that it doesn't allow the carpetting plants to spread.   TGM does, indeed, sell plants submerse - I had sent Herself to ask for 1-2-Grow which are emerse and meant to be stable like that in their gel for 6 weeks, but when they didn't have it, she came home with ordinary plants which have been underwater since they got to TGM - so the question is how long that's been and in the case of Hc, it's probably not a hugely long time - big turnover? - but I'll ask - tho' it's all a bit irrelevant now... the substrate will be cycling, the plants are either growing or not, planting the moss was a mistake, but I'll do more when I flood the tank... 

so - main question - given Colombo Flora-Base - am I safe for a good month without any ferts? 

ta

m


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## ceg4048 (18 Jun 2010)

Yeah the level of nutrition to use in DSM is entirely up to you. If you get good growth rates without it then fine. If you want to play with the values to see if you can get acceleration, that's also fine. If the sediment is known to be nutritious, then great,  no need. All the same rules apply. Higher heat, higher light, higher CO2, higher nutrient levels will all accelerate your DSM growth. These issues only become critical when the plants get flooded. That's when life get tough and when trouble starts. A DSM tank is just a greenhouse while flooded high tech tank is really an Intensive Care Unit (ICU).   

Cheers,


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## magpie (18 Jun 2010)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Y flooded high tech tank is really an Intensive Care Unit (ICU).
> 
> Cheers,



ah heck... I left the ICU to become a real human being.... I hadn't realised I was slipping back down that slope.  Low Tech it is, then... pity about all the money I just spent on fire extinguishers and a regulator/solenoid... 

maybe I'll just give them a go to see. But lots of patience and greenhousing first.

thank you hugely, as ever

m


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