# Algae identification for eradication



## mickfzu (31 Mar 2022)

Hi!

I have some trouble with algae in my tank and I have some troubles to improve the situation.
I complete following informations so you can help me resolve this algae issue.
I assume I have some green dust algae (glasses are clear on the photo because it is taken after the maintenance session), fuzzy algae and maybe cyano between glass and substrate...
Plants do not grow well. I Just add some plant mass yesterday to see if it help the tank.

Thank you.

Mickael

1. Size of tank in litres: ADA60P (with a little too much soil >10L probably)
2. Age of the set - up:  (About 1 years)
3. Filtration: JBL external canister e702 (with purigen bag) and lily pipe + surface skimmer near the output flow
4. Lighting and duration : Chihiros vivid 2 with RGB ratio (85/35/65) until i reduce to 45/25/45 without real improvement
5. Substrate. ADA soil ver. 2
6. Co2 dosing or Non-dosing.: co2 dosing  (>1 ph drop  from approximatively 6.5 to 5.3 during photosynthesis)
7. Fertilizers used &  Ratios: 1.5ml APT complete each day (I try 2ml a time)
8. Water change regime and type (50% a week with RO water) KH 0/250uS with seachem equilibrium
9. Plant list + When planted : rotala macrandra, pogostemon erectus, myriophyllum matogrossens golden, rotala mexicana goia, rotala macrandra pearl, rotala macrandra mini type 4, cambomba furcata, ludwigia pantanal & cuba, bacopa, tonina fluviatilis, bucephalandra, ammania pedicellata, etc.
10. Inhabitants: cardinalis, amber tetra, couple of honey gourami (probably too much fishs)
11. Full tank shot & Surface Image : Please note that the lily pipe is not well installed on this photo because it fall after a maintenance session but still the water surface move a little bit when well installed.


----------



## Zeus. (31 Mar 2022)

mickfzu said:


> . Lighting and duration : Chihiros vivid 2 with RGB ratio (85/35/65) until i reduce to 45/25/45 without real improvement


How long do you have the lights on for ?
Pre CO2 on time (time before the lights come on does the CO2 come on) ?

For a tank a year old there isn't much plant biomass and the AS and hardscape seem to have been blasted with light hence the algae.

Dust algae on tank is fairly normal in most tanks unless you have a large plant biomass/jungle and just needs regular cleaning IME

Flow/surface agitation looks good from pic, removing the purigen bag would help improve the filter output and there is no real advantage to purigen if your doing regular water changes

From pic there is no sign of any 'clean up crew' !!!! - shrimps and snails



mickfzu said:


> 5. Substrate. ADA soil ver. 2
> 7. Fertilizers used & Ratios: 1.5ml APT complete each day (I try 2ml a time)



ADA AS nutrients doesn't last for ever
APT complete isn't cheap and you may be better off/cheaper with another product or DIY ferts and dosing a full EI dose to make up for nutrients depleted in the ADA AS (not sure what ferts you can get in France)

Doing a pH profile would help confirm if your pH/[CO2] is stable from lights on till CO2 off

Algae below at substrate level is normal without cleaning/maintenance


----------



## mickfzu (31 Mar 2022)

Hi Zeus, 

Thank you for your help.

CO2 is on 2 hours before light is on. Light is on during 8 hours. CO2 is off when light is off too.
I just had yesterday some plant mass to see if it helps...
Yes I try to increase my light during some weeks but it doesn't resolve the algae issue. 
I think since the startup of this tank, initially it was an iwagumi with ohko stone, i always had these kind of algaes and particularly on rocks. That's why I remove them thinking it was a co2 flow problem.
I have only one otocinclus since some of them jump out of the tank. However, I do not succeed maintaining japonica on my tanks. They all died pretty quickly after insertion (low ph? low kh? another factor?).
I think co2 is pretty stable since I do several ph measures during photosynthesis. Ph does not change so much.
I try apt complete since it was cheaper/concentrated than ada style fertilising. We do not have much powder ferts in France and I do not have the acknowledge to use them actually... Maybe a day...
Do you think I do not use enough ferts? or ferts imbalance?
I use a turkey blaster during water change. I think i have also too much fishs for a 60p.

Mick


----------



## alnitak (31 Mar 2022)

Hello, agree with Zeus (yeah ). When i looked at the pictures, the first words that came were "argggghhhh, too low plant mass". You have a technical soil, ferts, CO2, your tank surface should be at least 80% covered with plants. 
I would try to implement fast growers like limnophilla, and try and cover the ground with easy carpetting plants like monte Carlo.  

For dry ferts, you can buy them at aquascape boutique. 

Bon courage


----------



## mickfzu (31 Mar 2022)

Hi Alnitak,  

Merci 

I just had ludwigia sp red, limnophila sp belem, limnophila aromatica mini, hygrophyla lancea chai and eriaucolon sp vietnam... I think it will be better. 
I also reduce a little the ferts (1ml) for the moment.
I hope my plants will recover and then I think i will change the soil for a new one (ada? Neo aquasoil? tropica?)
Do you have a tutorial for dry fertilising? I don't do any research on this subject. I have some chemistry knowledges but not sure if it does the trick xD.

Mickaël.


----------



## dw1305 (31 Mar 2022)

Hi all, 


mickfzu said:


> Do you have a tutorial for dry fertilising? I don't do any research on this subject. I have some chemistry knowledges but not sure if it does the trick


They certainly do do the trick. Plants can only take up nutrients as ions, so all that matters is whether a salt is soluble.  We have the <"IFC calculator">, it is pretty comprehensive. 

How do you feel about snails? Most of your algae looks to be <"Green Algae">, which makes <"it difficult to get rid of">, but fairly palatable to <"Ramshorn snails etc">.. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Zeus. (31 Mar 2022)

mickfzu said:


> CO2 is on 2 hours before light is on. Light is on during 8 hours. CO2 is off when light is off too.


 I would reduce to 6hours photo period and CO2 can go off after 4 - 5hours as plants have had their fill



mickfzu said:


> initially it was an iwagumi with ohko stone


Hard to do and require a lot of maintenance



mickfzu said:


> I have only one otocinclus since some of them jump out of the tank.


need shrimp and snails - some RCS and few amanos which make a real difference



mickfzu said:


> I try apt complete since it was cheaper/concentrated than ada style fertilising.


 ADA is a real rip off - your fellow Frenchman @alnitak  may be able to help with what ferts work out the best for you- DIY ferts isnt hard, and once going costs very little



mickfzu said:


> Do you think I do not use enough ferts? or ferts imbalance?



Dunno - however with regular Water Changes (WC) I would always advise ferts in abundance, so EI dosing levels - once plants are growing well you can always cut back



mickfzu said:


> I use a turkey blaster during water change. I think i have also too much fishs for a 60p.



Turkey blaster great for getting detritus out of AS  best to do regular with high tech tank IMO. Fish levels seem acceptable, when plants fill in you will see less fish as well and fish will be happier.

Like @dw1305 said Ramshorn's are great, I have them in my tank. A tank without snails and shrimp is incomplete in my book

The IFC is handy  if you can get the dry salts which shouldn't be hard, if unsure just ask (or pm) and help will come. The IFC is hard to follow if new to DIY ferts. Plus does no harm to check your mix of salts.


----------



## mickfzu (31 Mar 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> They certainly do do the trick. Plants can only take up nutrients as ions, so all that matters is whether a salt is soluble.  We have the <"IFC calculator">, it is pretty comprehensive.
> 
> ...


Thank you dw1305. I do not add any ramshorn snails cause I fear about being invaded by them in a couple of week :/ Maybe I'm wrong.  I used to have a few clithon but they generally stay at the bottom on the glass and not on the plants :/
I will check for the IFC calculator.


Zeus. said:


> I would reduce to 6hours photo period and CO2 can go off after 4 - 5hours as plants have had their fill
> 
> 
> Hard to do and require a lot of maintenance
> ...


Ok I will probably slowly reduce the photoperiod until i eradicate completely the algae. Or should I decrease the vivid RGB a little bit?
I don't know why i can succeed to maintain japonica shrimp in my tank, furthermore, my cardinalis are real piranah and they eat 1cm to 2cm shrimps with no problem
I will check for dry ferts with EI method as recommended. Does it exist some excel spreadsheet i can complete, equivalent to the IFC ?
I will come back to us to verify calculations and methods


----------



## Zeus. (31 Mar 2022)

mickfzu said:


> Does it exist some excel spreadsheet i can complete, equivalent to the IFC ?


The IFC is an Excel spreadsheet


----------



## GHNelson (1 Apr 2022)

Implement this Tutorial below and purchase some floating plants like Amazon Frogbit or Salvinia!








						Using stem plants as a filtering aid at Start Up!
					

The subject of using fast-growing stem plants as part of a filtering aid has cropped up a few times recently. This idea has been around for a long time so not new,....it has benefits especially for a new set - up. I try and cover at least 50% of the water surface minimum.  1. Improves water...



					www.ukaps.org
				



hoggie


----------



## mickfzu (1 Apr 2022)

Zeus. said:


> The IFC is an Excel spreadsheet


Thanks!I just download it! It seems pretty difficult at first sight. I need to look at it with a cool head. There is so much dosing regimes, so much options.


GHNelson said:


> Implement this Tutorial below and purchase some floating plants like Amazon Frogbit or Salvinia!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks!
Just read it. I have some salvinia in my shrimp tanks. Is it because floating plants absorbs nitrates? I think with RO water and APT complete I just have not so many nitrates in the water column.
Firstly, I just increase the plant mass. We will see in a few days if it's going better. I think I just have to wait until the top of the plant is growing in good shape and then I will discard the bottom, turkey blast the soil and replant the top. That's what I hope...
I will also this afternoon at the local shop to see if i can introduce some neritina snails and otocinclus. I don't know if they really like these kind of algaes. Maybe SAE are better.
I would like also add Amano shrimp but I think they don't like low ph and kh 0, particularly during water changes because they all died afterwards.


----------



## dw1305 (1 Apr 2022)

Hi all, 


mickfzu said:


> I do not add any ramshorn snails cause I fear about being invaded by them in a couple of week :/ Maybe I'm wrong. I used to have a few clithon but they generally stay at the bottom on the glass and not on the plants :/


Nerites (_Clithon_ spp.)  tend to stick to hard surfaces, Snails like _Physella acuta_ and _Planorbella duryi _are much more likely to venture onto the plants. They all last better in softer water than most snails, but I wouldn't worry about being over-run by them.


Zeus. said:


> The IFC is an Excel spreadsheet





mickfzu said:


> It seems pretty difficult at first sight


There is also the <"Rotala Butterfly"> nutrient calculator. All the calculators are based on the <"periodic table"> embedded in an Excel spreadsheet.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Zeus. (1 Apr 2022)

mickfzu said:


> Thanks!I just download it! It seems pretty difficult at first sight. I need to look at it with a cool head. There is so much dosing regimes, so much options.


We tried to make it as comprehensive as possible and 'dumbing' it down with a simpler version wasn't a viable option. Once you get to grips with it is not to bad and it does tick all the boxes IMO. Coding it was another story altogether


----------



## Karmicnull (1 Apr 2022)

Use @Hufsa's IFC guide for dummies that you can find here. It walks you through how to use it in easy steps.


----------



## mickfzu (1 Apr 2022)

Thank you guys. I will read all of these informations about the IFC.
Little update after planted new plants wednesday. What i see is that newly plants doesn't seems to be infested by algae at the moment.  I see also new shoots on the rotala macrandra variegated and bacopa salzmanii purple, that I already had. Only the bottom is infested. In vitro plants that i have also planted are free of algae too.
Hereunder some photos tonight (first photos of the thread have bee taken sunday). I already see some évolution.
Some hope for the future.
Mick


----------



## mickfzu (5 Apr 2022)

Hello guys, 

I just trim and discard some plants bottom hit by algaes such as the L. Pantanal, L. ovalis Pink, Rotala macrandra variegated and mini type 4, limnophila sessiliphlora. These plants touched the top of water so it was really necessary to do it.
I have also check the IFC and after reading the IFC short guide written by Hufsa, it seems pretty clear to me now. So I buy dedicated powders to encourage myself making my proper fertilizer.
I have a couple of question now:

What regime should i go for my plant? EI low? Med?Full? Another one?
Is the Ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate are really necessary because i don't know where I can find these in France?

Thank you for the support.

Mickaël


----------



## Hufsa (5 Apr 2022)

I think full EI will be a safe choice for your high tech tank, it will rule out any nutrient deficiencies. You can check if you have brewer's shops local or online, sometimes they sell the same preservatives. If you cannot source either then you could try common household white vinegar to acidify the solutions. If you dont make ferts to last many months then you could be okay without potassium sorbate 

Edit:
Ascorbic acid is also known under the names Vitamin C and E300, and potassium sorbate is known as E202, sometimes sold as Sorbistat


----------



## mickfzu (6 Apr 2022)

Hufsa said:


> I think full EI will be a safe choice for your high tech tank, it will rule out any nutrient deficiencies. You can check if you have brewer's shops local or online, sometimes they sell the same preservatives. If you cannot source either then you could try common household white vinegar to acidify the solutions. If you dont make ferts to last many months then you could be okay without potassium sorbate
> 
> Edit:
> Ascorbic acid is also known under the names Vitamin C and E300, and potassium sorbate is known as E202, sometimes sold as Sorbistat


Thanks for the answer. I will check for the E300 and E202 online.

I didn't think full EI would be a good choice for my tank since I have already some trouble with algae. I think i should at least stabilize it.


----------



## PARAGUAY (6 Apr 2022)

GHNelson said:


> Implement this Tutorial below and purchase some floating plants like Amazon Frogbit or Salvinia!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes add floating plants ,no idea about that light but believe it's quite strong


----------



## mickfzu (8 Apr 2022)

Quick update.
Algaes continue slowly to grow on leaves...
Newly added hygrophyla lancea chai have completely melted after leaves have turned white... 
Almost same melting with the limnophila aromatica mini. No idea why.
I also notice some BBA on the macrandra pearl and pogostemon erectus.








Mickael


----------



## dw1305 (8 Apr 2022)

Hi all, 


mickfzu said:


> Newly added hygrophyla lancea chai have completely melted after leaves have turned white...


That is <"classical iron (Fe) deficiency">. It is only the <"non-mobile elements"> that cause issues in the new leaves. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## mickfzu (8 Apr 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> That is <"classical iron (Fe) deficiency">. It is only the <"non-mobile elements"> that cause issues in the new leaves.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Hi Darrel!
So it could lead to a nutrients level deficiency in some way? I read a few threads on the forum so nutrients in excess couldn't necessary lead to algaes. So i can progressively increase the dosing of my AIO fertilizer adding some Salvinia as indicator and efficient nutrients absorbers as back up.

Mickaël


----------



## dw1305 (10 Apr 2022)

Hi all, 


mickfzu said:


> So it could lead to a nutrients level deficiency in some way?


It isn't really to do with the interaction between nutrients, it is because of the <"assembly line"> nature of <"nutrients in plant growth">. 

Plants <"can't store the non-mobile nutrients">, so as soon as one becomes severely deficient  plant growth stops. Once it it becomes the lacking non-mobile <"becomes available again"> growth restarts.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Zeus. (10 Apr 2022)

mickfzu said:


> I didn't think full EI would be a good choice for my tank since I have already some trouble with algae.



Dosing a full EI dose and a weekly 50% WC will ensure there is not fert shortage and the weekly WC will reset the tank weekly.
Ferts in abundance  *does not* cause algae, algae with thrive when ferts are in the parts per billion. Control the light, ferts in abundance, good flow, high plant biomass and good regular maintenance are the first step to getting the plants to outcompete the algae. 
Focus on optimum plant grow and *not* the algae


----------



## mickfzu (11 Apr 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> It isn't really to do with the interaction between nutrients, it is because of the <"assembly line"> nature of <"nutrients in plant growth">.
> 
> ...


Thanks for these informations! I increase a little bit the APT complete daily dosing.
By the way, I will receive some ramshorn snails this week to help me with algae. 


Zeus. said:


> Dosing a full EI dose and a weekly 50% WC will ensure there is not fert shortage and the weekly WC will reset the tank weekly.
> Ferts in abundance  *does not* cause algae, algae with thrive when ferts are in the parts per billion. Control the light, ferts in abundance, good flow, high plant biomass and good regular maintenance are the first step to getting the plants to outcompete the algae.
> Focus on optimum plant grow and *not* the algae


With the IFC you choose to EI dose 6 days and the 7 day you reset with WC?
Just received all the powder this week end for the diy fert so I could go for EI soon 



The hygrophila lancea chai didn't support really well the tank so I will see for the couple of plant that resist...
Same thing for the hygrophila aromatica mini. Some plants resist.

I completely remove the rotala macrandra pearl because of full of algae and BBA. Growth was completely stunted.
I also discard the bottom of few plants full of algae and replant the healthy top.

Mick


----------



## Zeus. (11 Apr 2022)

mickfzu said:


> With the IFC you choose to EI dose 6 days and the 7 day you reset with WC?


Yes/No, most folk use

Macros day 1( straight after WC), day 3 and day 5
Micros day 2,4 and 6
rest the day before WC
or

Macros day 1( straight after WC), day 3 and day 5
Micros day 2 and 4
Rest two days before WC 

There are many options


----------



## mickfzu (13 Apr 2022)

Thank you Zeus for these informations.

Just tried IFC Calculator for the Macro elements, hereunder the results:
1) ADA 60P + jbl e 702 canister which gives me 66L approximatively. Maybe I have to substract the soil? (10L approximatively)...



2)Here, I choose the APT E formula because of when I choose EI Full I see dKH=5. 
Since I have a technical soil which buffer my KH to 0 I think I don't want to have that?! 
That's why I choose APT E (5ml/3x week). But I notice that it is not the same concentration as EI full so I am a little confused about it.



3) I have : 

Potassium Nitrate KNO3 (N)
Monopotassium Phosphate KH2PO4 (P)
Potassium Sulfate K2SO4 (K)
Magnesium Sulfate MgSO4 7H2O (Mg)
So for the macro I have this result. Is it correct?




For the Micro, I purchase this:



What should I choose on the IFC Calc? I have strictly no idea.

Thank you guys.

Mick.


----------



## tigertim (13 Apr 2022)

The best thing you could do is the old fashoined method of having 2/3 rds of the tank covered with floating plants, a method that seems to be mostly forgetton about in fighting algae

Is your water soft ?  i had a massive problem with Cyanobacteria, i resorted to using some Blue Green Slime remover, worked perfectly with no problems since
Amazon product

I had read it suggested low Nitrates can be a reason for Cyanobacteria so since then i've always added some tap water (high Nitrate ) to my rainwater during water changes to slightly up my nitrate level 

As others have suggested i'd reduce lighting by 30 to 60 mins

Also against the grain on here i'd stick with a propiety brand of fertiliser like Seachem Flourish and Trace and dose on the lean side just once a week

Good luck


----------



## mickfzu (14 Apr 2022)

tigertim said:


> The best thing you could do is the old fashoined method of having 2/3 rds of the tank covered with floating plants, a method that seems to be mostly forgetton about in fighting algae
> 
> Is your water soft ?  i had a massive problem with Cyanobacteria, i resorted to using some Blue Green Slime remover, worked perfectly with no problems since
> Amazon product
> ...



Hi Tiger Tim, 

I tried in the past  Blue exit thinking it was Cyano but it doesn't change anything so I think it's rather a mix of GDA, GSA, Fuzzy Algae....  I notice also some BBA.
Actually there is some plants that are growing pretty well now such as Rotala Macrandra (Variegated, Type 4). Newly added limnophila sp Belem is growing well to. But there is always some algae on old leaves.
I think I have to increase again the plant mass. I added some salvinia but probably not enough. Not easy with a surface skimmer :/
At the moment, I increase a little bit the daily amount of ferts (before trying EI when the plant mass will be increased). I don't think leaning dosage is a good idea in my situation, I already underdose the APT complete a few week without changing anything with algeas :/
I also increase a little bit the amount of CO2 (PH drop from 6.8 to 5.5). Not sure if my water flow is really good particularly at the bottom front of the tank so... 

Thank you

Mickaël


----------



## mickfzu (25 Apr 2022)

Hello guys, 

Some update since the last time I posted.
Tank looks better today. I succeed to control the algae growth. Some plants are recovering and now I think I have to be patient and continue the maintenance.
The bottom of the Cabomba furcata is clean of algae. MyrioPhyllum Mattrogrossense golden start to grow again. Only the bottom of the Pantanal is impacted with algae but I will discard it later.
I added some Ramshorn snail and King Koopa, and also an otocinclus crew which work a lot.
I also increase the amount of APT complete ferts and I can see improvment.
I probably will switch to EI regime this week since I think plants were starved.
I also increase % by % the amount of light since I reduce it a lot to control algae.
 Some photos of the evolution: 

















Mick


----------

