# Using Peat To Lower Water pH



## jaypeecee (13 Mar 2021)

Hi Folks,

In one of my tanks, I need to lower the water pH to around 6.5, i.e. slightly acidic. The current pH of this tank is 7.54 and alkalinity/carbonate hardness is 3.0 dKH. I'm wondering about using peat, something I've never done before. Can anyone suggest a suitable product? I would need to add the peat to a small internal filter. The tank is only 15 litres. CO2 injection is not currently used on this tank. To what extent does the peat colour the water? I realize that it's difficult to quantify this but any guidance is better than nothing. Anything else I should know?

Thanks in advance.

JPC


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## timdjones10 (16 Mar 2021)

Why do you want to lower the PH? Peat is a pretty old fashioned method as it's unsustainable to harvest, something like this better


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## jaypeecee (16 Mar 2021)

timdjones10 said:


> Why do you want to lower the PH? Peat is a pretty old fashioned method as it's unsustainable to harvest, something like this better


Hi @timdjones10 

The first reason is because I have been advised that it would benefit my plants if the water is somewhat acidic. And this has come from a reliable source. More details to follow. The second reason is because it has been scientifically demonstrated that cyanobacteria (aka BGA) prefer alkaline environments. Having had a few problems with cyano, I thought I'd put the scientific research to the test.

I realized a little while after starting this thread that here I was suggesting the use of a precious natural resource. So, let's scrap the idea of using peat and use something else - natural or chemical.

All suggestions welcome.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (16 Mar 2021)

Hi @timdjones10 

There is no way that I'm going to use muriatic acid, which I understand to be hydrochloric acid. I don't think it's necessary to use such a strong acid. I'd rather use a weaker acid and reduce KH. But, it needs to be stable. In the first instance, I'm going to see if I can achieve my objective simply by injecting CO2.

JPC


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## Wookii (16 Mar 2021)

Adding botanicals will reduce your KH John, such as alder cones, catappa leaves and bark etc. The tannic, fluvic and humid acids they release, along with a number of other compounds are beneficial to plants, fish and shrimp alike.

If you don’t want them visible in the tank (though I think they look great on the substrate), they can be added to the filter instead.

They will stain the water to varying extents. I quite like a bit of colour to the water, but if you want to avoid that, you can use pre-prepared extract products.

Several of these options are discussed in this thread:






						Thoughts on Blackwater Extract products . . .
					

Does anyone have experience or thoughts on blackwater extract products such as:  Easy Life Catappa-X Tetra Blackwater Extract /Touramin Aquadip Liquid Catappa Dennerle Humin Elixir Salty Shrimp Leaves and Bark (extract) GlasGarten Humin+  I do add botanicals (catappa leaves, catappa bark, alder...



					www.ukaps.org


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## sparkyweasel (16 Mar 2021)

A weaker acid sounds more suitable, especially an organic acid such as might occur in the natural habitat of your plants and livestock, - humic acid springs  to mind.
Peat is a contentious issue in horticulture, some producers claim that their product is sustainable and ethical, eg;
Evergreen Peat


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## jaypeecee (16 Mar 2021)

Wookii said:


> Adding botanicals will reduce your KH John, such as alder cones, catappa leaves and bark etc.


Hi @Wookii 

I experimented with botanicals some time ago but found they made minimal difference to KH and/or pH. Specifically, I tried Catappa leaves and Oak leaves. Then, I read this article in PFK, which supported my findings (please scroll to the end of the article for the interesting figures):









						Using leaves in your tank
					

Collect fallen leaves from a nearby forest and use these to decorate your tank.




					www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk
				




JPC


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## jaypeecee (16 Mar 2021)

sparkyweasel said:


> A weaker acid sounds more suitable, especially an organic acid such as might occur in the natural habitat of your plants and livestock, - humic acid springs to mind.
> Peat is a contentious issue in horticulture, some producers claim that their product is sustainable and ethical, eg;
> Evergreen Peat


Hi @sparkyweasel 

Many thanks for the feedback. I'll check out your suggestions.

JPC


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## John q (16 Mar 2021)

In the above linked article it suggests catappa leaves would drastically reduce the ph in ro water and lower it a bit in tap water. Wouldn't a mix of the two give you the desired result jpc? Or doesn't in work like that.
Anyway interesting article non the less as I'm experimenting with catappa to try and tint the water slightly.


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## Wookii (16 Mar 2021)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Wookii
> 
> I experimented with botanicals some time ago but found they made minimal difference to KH and/or pH. Specifically, I tried Catappa leaves and Oak leaves. Then, I read this article in PFK, which supported my findings (please scroll to the end of the article for the interesting figures):
> 
> ...



It depends how many you add and your starting KH. Your KH is already pretty low, so it should take much to lower it further and a decent pH drop to be seen. A few alder cones should do it.

As for the tabulated data in that article, we don’t know the starting KH of the tap water - it must be fairly high as it has a degassed pH if 8.0, but even so the data shows a substantial reduction in the pH from the addition of the Catappa leaves. At 311 hours there is a 1.1 pH reduction in the sample with the Catappa leaves versus the untreated sample.


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## jaypeecee (16 Mar 2021)

Wookii said:


> As for the tabulated data in that article, we don’t know the starting KH of the tap water - it must be fairly high as it has a degassed pH if 8.0, but even so the data shows a substantial reduction in the pH from the addition of the Catappa leaves. At 311 hours there is a 1.1 pH reduction in the sample with the Catappa leaves versus the untreated sample.


Hi @Wookii 

Yes, you are correct about the 1.1 pH reduction. Why would the pH of the reference hardwater increase over time? You might expect it to absorb CO2 from the surrounding air but that would take the pH down. I seem to recall that I did a few measurements myself with Catappa leaves but it would be easier for me to do another set of experiments rather than try to find the previous set. For more information about humics, I suggest you try searching for Christian Steinberg who is the authority on this topic.

OK, so returning to the matter in hand, I will re-consider the use of humics for lowering pH. I don't mind a slight yellowing of the water but I wouldn't want it stained brown for my main tank.

Thanks for the dialogue - this has been useful.

JPC


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## Wookii (16 Mar 2021)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Wookii
> 
> Yes, you are correct about the 1.1 pH reduction. Why would the pH of the reference hardwater increase over time? You might expect it to absorb CO2 from the surrounding air but that would take the pH down. I seem to recall that I did a few measurements myself with Catappa leaves but it would be easier for me to do another set of experiments rather than try to find the previous set. For more information about humics, I suggest you try searching for Christian Steinberg who is the authority on this topic.
> 
> ...



As mentioned in that thread I linked to, you can buy premade liquid extracts such as Easy Life Catappa X, or the Mircobe Lift product that @X3NiTH uses, that contain the acids etc without so much tannins, so minimal, if any, water discolouration, and can be dosed in a more controlled manner I that’s something you prefer to do.


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## Conort2 (16 Mar 2021)

Any chance you could use rainwater or Ro water and mix it with your tap?


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## jaypeecee (16 Mar 2021)

Hi @Wookii 

I keep forgetting your first name - is it Gareth? I apologize. This sure is a sign of age!

You may be onto something. I've always associated humic and fulvic acids with tannins and, therefore, brown colouration. I'll definitely check out the Easy-Life and Microbe Lift products.

Thanks again, my friend.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (16 Mar 2021)

Conort2 said:


> Any chance you could use rainwater or Ro water and mix it with your tap?


Hi @Conort2 

I'm not sure why that would result in slightly acidic water. My objective is to have tank water with pH from 6.0 to 7.0. Obviously KH and GH are also important considerations.

JPC


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## MichaelJ (16 Mar 2021)

I've been using Fluval Peat Granules way in the past mostly for the plant enrichment effect (which I didn't really appreciate and why I stopped using it). Over time It didn't do much with Ph either (and I used quite a bit). The browning effect (from tannins) was minimal, probably in part due to my filtration over Seachem Purigen and having it leach out in a bucket of water for a couple of days before putting it on the filter.
Cheers,
Michael


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## Wookii (16 Mar 2021)

MichaelJ said:


> I've been using Fluval Peat Granules way in the past mostly for the plant enrichment effect (which I didn't really appreciate and why I stopped using it). Over time It didn't do much with Ph either (and I used quite a bit). The browning effect (from tannins) was minimal, probably in part due to my filtration over Seachem Purigen and having it leach out in a bucket of water for a couple of days before putting it on the filter.
> Cheers,
> Michael



Purigen will absorb the organic acids from the peat along with the tannins - you were giving with one hand, and taking away with the other.  Also lot of those beneficial acids and other compounds would have been left behind in your bucket unfortunately.


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## sparkyweasel (16 Mar 2021)

jaypeecee said:


> Why would the pH of the reference hardwater increase over time?


Unfortunately we only have the tables and no information about the experiment.
It's possible that he measured the pH of freshly-drawn tapwater which then warmed to room temp in the course of the experiment, causing offgassing of CO2.
We also aren't told how many leaves in how much water resulted in those changes.


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## Conort2 (17 Mar 2021)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Conort2
> 
> I'm not sure why that would result in slightly acidic water. My objective is to have tank water with pH from 6.0 to 7.0. Obviously KH and GH are also important considerations.
> 
> JPC


More for the reduction in KH and GH. I wouldn’t have thought Adding botanicals will make much difference unless you have water with a low tds to start with, however I could be wrong.


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## jaypeecee (17 Mar 2021)

Hi Folks,

If other aquarists are unaware of the following, it seems appropriate to mention it here:









						Is pH important in a planted aquarium ?
					

What is pH? Does it matter in a planted aquarium and what range is a good target if so ? This page explains what pH reading means to your planted tank setup.




					www.2hraquarist.com
				




There is a wealth of useful information on the above linked page.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (19 Mar 2021)

Hi Folks,

Well, I thought things were getting a bit clearer. Until I read the following, which is a word-for-word extract from Diana Walstad's book _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_:

"I would caution hobbyists to use water hardness whenever possible to classify their tapwater. It is the water hardness, not the pH or the alkalinity that counts". This is stated in the context of water as a source of plant nutrients. To me, this appears to directly contradict what is being said on the 2HR Aquarist site linked above". Yes/No? What am I missing?

JPC


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## Maf 2500 (19 Mar 2021)

The 2hr Aquarist page linked states that hardness is more important than pH, which is essentially what D. Walstad is saying - is this correct or am I barking up the wrong tree?



> *KH fluctuations affect livestock as changes in carbonate salt concentrations impact osmotic functions in livestock. This flux will be shown as changes in the pH as well. So pH changes due to KH changes will affect livestock, but pH changes with no change in KH will not.*
> 
> 
> To this end, it is KH stability that matters much more in aquariums rather than pH stability. With the stability of the later (pH) being important only as an indication of stability of the former (KH).
> ...





> Common plant species that are not picky can be grown in much more alkaline water pH8+. To narrow it down and be more specific where picky species are concerned, read the article on *KH (carbonate hardness) as that takes precedence over pH.*


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## Maf 2500 (19 Mar 2021)

Also, regarding the original question see this article about how the author uses a peat moss filtering technique to treat tap water to significantly reduce pH and hardness before introducing it to the aquarium. I know this is slightly different to the original question but well worth a look:

Marksfish - How to Peat Filter Tap Water



> Water comes out of the tap at a pH of 8.3 and with a carbonate hardness of 13, enough to stand a spoon in!! After filtering, the results are pH 5 and KH 3, quite a difference huh? As with reverse osmosis and other purification devices, it is necessary to rebuild your water to the required consistency using plain tap water. You will find that the filtered water is a "teas stained" colour. This is the tanins from the peat and is quite natural. Some people like me like the look (it is an acquired taste I grant you) as it makes the fish enhance their colouration. For those that don't like the look, a little bit of carbon run in the filter will soon clear it up.



I'm not going there on whether it is environmentally friendly or not.


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## dw1305 (19 Mar 2021)

Hi all,


Maf 2500 said:


> that hardness is more important than pH, which is essentially what D. Walstad is saying - is this correct or am I barking up the wrong tree?


I think you are right, they are both interested in carbonate hardness (dKH). My guess is that they have slightly different reasons for homing in on carbonate hardness as the important factor. 

In Diana Walstad's case she didn't originally change any water, so she was reliant <"on the carbonate buffer"> in the tank to avoid <"old tank syndrome">,  with "old tank syndrome" mainly caused by the carbonate requirement of nitrification.

In the <"2hr Aquarists"> case they have noticed that when the pH falls due to changes in the CO2 ~ HCO3 equilibrium (when you add CO2) that this doesn't effect the livestock. In the "added CO2" scenario you have the <"same amount of dKH">, what has changed is the amount of <"Total Inorganic Carbon (TIC)">, due to the "spare" injected CO2. 

If you keep soft water fish they are used to pH changes, because <"pH is inherently unstable in soft water">. As carbonate hardness increases those pH changes are damped down, as the pH stabilises near the pH8 carbonate equilibrium value. In really hard water the pH will always be alkaline <"and shell beds can develop">.

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee (19 Mar 2021)

Hi @Maf 2500

I think the confusion arises here partly because of terminology:

From the 2HR Aquarist, "pH is tied closely to carbonate hardness (KH) which measures the amount of Carbonate (CO3) and bicarbonate (HCO3) ions in the water".

The key point here is the term 'carbonate hardness' - more correctly known as 'alkalinity'. So, the 2HR Aquarist is saying that KH (and therefore pH) are what's important in the water - if you happen to be a plant. But, Diana Walstad is saying that it's the (general) hardness (i.e. GH) that is the more important:

"It is the water hardness, not the pH or the alkalinity that counts."

JPC


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## dw1305 (19 Mar 2021)

Hi all,


jaypeecee said:


> is the term 'carbonate hardness' - more correctly known as 'alkalinity'.


It is back to all the confusing terms again, <"alkalinity"> and <"basicity"> are often used interchangeably, by they are actually slightly different. My guess is that what Diana Walstad actually used alkalinity when she meant basicity.


> ............Alkalinity roughly refers to the molar amount of bases in a solution that can be converted to uncharged species by a strong acid. For example, 1 mole of HCO31− in solution represents 1 molar equivalent, while 1 mole of CO3-− is 2 molar equivalents because twice as many H+ ions would be necessary to balance the charge. The total charge of a solution always equal zero. This leads to a parallel definition of alkalinity that is based upon the charge balance of ions in a solution.........


In most natural situation dGH, dKH, alkalinity and basicity are all interchangeable, because they are all measures of the amount of dissolved limestone (CaCO3) in solution. Limestone supplies 1 : 1 dKH and dGH. The <"derivations of all the units"> are in Larry Frank's article at <"the Krib">.

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee (19 Mar 2021)

Hi Folks,

I don't think I have a problem with what the 2HR Aquarist is saying. He is simply looking at pH and alkalinity. GH is not relevant to the topic that he is presenting. So, my difficulty lies with what Diana Walstad is saying. She seems to be dismissing pH and alkalinity as unimportant. Am I reading her wrongly? For anyone that doesn't have a copy of Diana Walstad's book, this will be difficult to follow. 

JPC


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## Maf 2500 (19 Mar 2021)

> In most natural situation dGH, dKH, alkalinity and basicity are all interchangeable, because they are all measures of the amount of dissolved limestone (CaCO3) in solution. Limestone supplies 1 : 1 dKH and dGH. The <"derivations of all the units"> are in Larry Franks article at <"the Krib">.


Thanks @dw1305 , to be honest I struggle a little with understanding (and memorising) all the differences between the various measures of hardness and alkalinity. It is good to know that in most cases they are interchangeable.

The one key difference that I understand between pH and any of the above is that pH varies with CO2 concentration while hardness/alkalinity will remain relatively unaffected. Therefore the absolute value of the pH is less important than water hardness for both livestock and plants.


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## jaypeecee (19 Mar 2021)

Hi Folks,

Perhaps if I quote Diana Walstad's sentence immediately following on from that which I have referenced above:

"Although all three parameters are often correlated in nature, under artificial tapwater conditions they may not be".

JPC


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## Wookii (19 Mar 2021)

jaypeecee said:


> So, my difficulty lies with what Diana Walstad is saying. She seems to be dismissing pH and alkalinity as unimportant. Am I reading her wrongly?



In terms of growing aquatics plants, which I assume is what she is referencing, then pH and alkalinity are largely unimportant aren’t they? KH only affects some plants, with some growing optimally in softer water, and some growing optimally in harder water.


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## John q (19 Mar 2021)

I was under the impression that some plants can use carbonate from the water if there's a lack of co2?
I'm sure I've read vallisneria is one of them but could have dreamt that.


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## jaypeecee (20 Mar 2021)

Wookii said:


> In terms of growing aquatics plants, which I assume is what she is referencing, then pH and alkalinity are largely unimportant aren’t they?


Hi @Wookii

That is not my understanding. For example, on A N Other forum on which I am a member, a lot of importance is placed on water pH when growing aquatic plants. So, I will pursue this topic on there as well.

JPC


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## Wookii (20 Mar 2021)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Wookii
> 
> That is not my understanding. For example, on A N Other forum on which I am a member, a lot of importance is placed on water pH when growing aquatic plants. So, I will pursue this topic on there as well.
> 
> JPC



I’m not aware of anyone targeting a specific pH for aquarium plants John. Certainly for live stock, yes, and avoiding the extreme ends of the pH range possibly, but the 6.0-8.0 pH that most tanks sit at should be fine for the vast majority of plants. A pH above 7 can be an issue for nutrient delivery and breaking chelation but that not a plant issue, it’s a ferts issue.


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## Wookii (20 Mar 2021)

John q said:


> I was under the impression that some plants can use carbonate from the water if there's a lack of co2?
> I'm sure I've read vallisneria is one of them but could have dreamt that.



It is true I believe John, though I’m unsure to what extent the KH level is an actual ‘requirement’ for the plant to grow if it otherwise has sufficient CO2 I don’t know.


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## jaypeecee (20 Mar 2021)

Wookii said:


> A pH above 7 can be an issue for nutrient delivery and breaking chelation but that not a plant issue, it’s a ferts issue.


Hi Gareth,

Ah, I think we're now getting to the crux of the matter. You are correct, of course. And iron (in)solubility is a good example of why water pH is important. In the case of iron, the answer is to add a chelator. This is all about our plants being able to take up the nutrients they need. So, water column and substrate pH are important considerations. The natural habitats of many aquatic plants have low/very low pH.  In her book, _Aquarium Plants_, @Christel lists many locations in Thailand, India and Brazil where the water pH is less than 6.5, for example.

It would be interesting to know the water pH in which aquarium plants are cultivated by the likes of Tropica, AquaFleur, etc. My understanding is that they are grown hydroponically. That being the case, the optimum pH range of the hydroponic nutrient solution is 5.8-6.3, according to a few sources.

I want to reiterate that I am no expert in this field. I'm just a beginner who is keen to get some hard facts - I feel more comfortable with that.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (20 Mar 2021)

John q said:


> I was under the impression that some plants can use carbonate from the water if there's a lack of co2?
> I'm sure I've read vallisneria is one of them but could have dreamt that.


Hi @John q 

It's not so much carbonates as bicarbonates. In alkaline water (pH>7.0), there isn't much CO2 in the water column as it takes the form of bicarbonates. And, you are correct - Vallisneria spiralis is one example of a bicarbonate user.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (21 Mar 2021)

jaypeecee said:


> It would be interesting to know the water pH in which aquarium plants are cultivated by the likes of Tropica, AquaFleur, etc. My understanding is that they are grown hydroponically. That being the case, the optimum pH range of the hydroponic nutrient solution is 5.8-6.3, according to a few sources.


Hi Folks,

Is anyone able to shed any light (!) on the above?

JPC


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## Wookii (21 Mar 2021)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> Is anyone able to shed any light (!) on the above?
> 
> JPC



Good video tour by @George Farmer of the Tropica facility. Not sure if he specifically mentions the pH of the water though:


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## Wookii (21 Mar 2021)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> Is anyone able to shed any light (!) on the above?
> 
> JPC



Another @George Farmer  tour video here John,   at 10:00 time stamp he mentions that Tropica run the installation on a sustainable basis and utilise rainwater:


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## John q (21 Mar 2021)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> Is anyone able to shed any light (!) on the above?
> 
> JPC


No ~ But seeing as I've time on my hands I've emailed dennerle and asked the question. You never know they might reply.


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## Christel (21 Mar 2021)

Spraying is definitely only done with very soft water, because otherwise the lime blocks the nozzles. The emersed plants are in a heavily fertilized nutrient solution (I once measured over 1000 µS/cm a few years ago). The pH will be acid so that the nutrients can be absorbed. But exact information is usually not disclosed by the companies. (I hope I translated the English words correctly).


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## jaypeecee (21 Mar 2021)

John q said:


> No ~ But seeing as I've time on my hands I've emailed dennerle and asked the question. You never know they might reply.


Hi @John q 

Looking at Dennerle's website, I was interested to read:

"In our aquaria we ought to mimic the natural habitat of the animals and plants we keep as closely as possible. Appropriate water parameters, a balanced aquarium, are not only the basis for healthy, colorful animals and plants, they also enable us to have an unhindered look into this impressive aquatic community".

JPC


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## John q (21 Mar 2021)

Yes Aquafleur have something similar on the website.

"Every day, 250,000 litres of water are circulated through the computer-controlled water treatment equipment, and atmospheric humidity, degree of acidity, temperature and the required nutritional value are closely monitored."

Will let you know if dennerle reply.


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## jaypeecee (21 Mar 2021)

Christel said:


> The pH will be acid so that the nutrients can be absorbed.


Hi @Christel & Everyone

Thanks very much for your reply, Christel. You have confirmed what I suspected. So, my question now is - does it make sense to transfer aquarium plants from water that has a pH<7 to water that has pH>7 and expect the plants to adapt (suddenly) to their new environment? Indeed, is it reasonable to expect them to adapt at all? And, should we not be growing many of our aquarium plants in water that has a pH<7?  Would it be appropriate to aim for the pH range that I quoted above, namely 5.8 to 6.3? Ah, but another thought has just entered my head and that is - since aquarium plants are often/always cultivated (by the supplier) with their leaves emersed and their roots bathed in an hydroponic solution, we as aquarists then grow our plants with the roots (typically) in the substrate and the rest of the plant (stem, leaves, etc.) in the water column.

This is too much for me to get my head around. Your help and everyone else's help would be greatly appreciated.

JPC


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## dw1305 (21 Mar 2021)

Hi all,


jaypeecee said:


> Although all three parameters are often correlated in nature, under artificial tapwater conditions they may not be


That is right, unless you live somewhere with <"fairly unusual "water"> (_"water" is really a dilute solution of salts with H2O as a solvent_) that hardness will be from dissolved  limestone (CaCO3) and give  1:1 dGH/dKH.

If you start with DI water (H2O) you <"can have any  combination of dGH and dKH">, although  you are still constrained by the <"limited solubility of carbonates">


John q said:


> I was under the impression that some plants can use carbonate from the water if there's a lack of co2?
> I'm sure I've read vallisneria is one of them but could have dreamt that.


You are right, but as @jaypeecee's  <"bicarbonate (HCO3-) ion">..


Christel said:


> Spraying is definitely only done with very soft water, because otherwise the lime blocks the nozzles. The emersed plants are in a heavily fertilized nutrient solution


Certainly my experience of <"working in commercial horticulture">. Rainwater is used in the <"Princess of Wales Conservatory" at RBG Kew"> etc.

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee (21 Mar 2021)

jaypeecee said:


> And, should we not be growing many of our aquarium plants in water that has a pH<7?


Hi Everyone,

Obviously, CO2 injection lowers pH but we can't rely on this alone to obtain the correct water pH - whatever that happens to be. The risk of asphyxiating fish is always there. And acidosis. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about shrimp and snails and their tolerance of CO2 and acidity.

JPC


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