# Stupid is as stupid does



## mrjackdempsey

Hoping to set up my first 'properly designed' planted tank soon and busying myself in preparation of it.Ordered the El fertilization in readiness and just waiting for delivery and hopefully getting my 10 kg CO2 bottle refilled this week or early next week plus a couple of fire extinguishers as backups. I'm collecting my tank this weekend (it's 8' * 2' * 2.5' length by width by height or 240 cm * 60 cm * 75 cm, 1,080 litres) and it's starting to excite me but also fill me with dread.
   The tank is second hand and was used as a reef tank by it's previous owner along with a sump which I'm thinking of doing away it because of CO2 loss but maybe I'm wrong here and it would be useful for filtration ( looking for advice here from those with better experience on such matters). Filters I have at the moment are the FX5 plus a Superfish external filter (aqua pro 3) but thinking this would have to be supplemented by at least another FX5 , also got a powerhead that's capable of 12,000 litres per hour with the tank to aid in circulating the water in the tank. Wondering about a spraybar for the FX 5 ( or even shared between 2 FX 5's) and using CO2 in - line reactors to deliver CO2 to the tank. Would the reactor have to be DIY because of the size of the FX 5 pipe work or are there commercially available ones out there? Would I be better with two reactors for a more even coverage over the tank or would I get away with one?
   Next worry is about lighting. I have a Betta 1500 light unit on a tank at the moment which has 6 x 80 w Arcadia T5 bulbs and was hoping this is enough but unsure about this as the bulbs are only 5' and worry the edges won't get enough 
Sorry about the over load of questions but really want it go go well and not get egg on my face.The tank won't be set up for a couple of weeks/ month as must sort out the stainless steel base plus get rid of the tanks in the room at the moment. Would like to thank all in advance and be warned, there will be more questions


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## Bobtastic

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

No answers for u but kudos for attempting a tank that size! Can't wait to see What it looks like!


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## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

Thanks Bob, that's why I use the word stupid


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## ceg4048

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

Hello,
       I wouldn't be so quick to ditch the sump. You just need to understand the problems of sumps and then figure out a way to minimize the difficulties associated with them. As stated in other threads (you could do a search using "sump" as a search parameter) many sumps are uncovered  and have a lot of splashing inside. This combination tends to out-gas the CO2 making it difficult to saturate the water properly. The solution is obvious, but may not be easy; eliminate or minimize the amount of splashing in the sump, and cover the sump to slow the escape of CO2. End of problem.

The next step of course is to have a sump pump(s) that will satisfy the flow rate requirement and use the 10X rule as a guide. So a 1000L CO2 injected tank should have in the neighborhood of 10,000 LPH. With the availability of submersible pumps, this ought to be easy. You can inject the CO2 in-line preferably, or diffuse it in the sump first.

You ought to be able to fabricate a custom spraybar from acrylic tubing. There is a thread about this somewhere.

480 watts T5 is a LOT of light. If the tubes are only 5 foot long then they ought to be staggered to the left and right to get more even coverage.

Cheers,


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## Bobtastic

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

I think this is the thread that Clive is referring to Bending Clear Perspex Tubing. I tried it myself recently, the first two bends were ok, but the 3rd buckled a bit... I would suggest packing with more salt after each bend (and compacting) or using bending springs.


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## foxfish

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

Wow that is some tank!   

You could simplify your pumps & filters but I would need to know a little bit more about the sump before I could make any suggestions.

How big is the sump & what size, no of overflows are there in the tank?

You can definitely run a very successful planted tank using a sump & once set up & running the sump is a fantastic asset to have.


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## vauxhallmark

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

Wow, I hope you've got long arms!!

Can't wait to see how it goes!

Mark


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## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Hello,
> I wouldn't be so quick to ditch the sump. You just need to understand the problems of sumps and then figure out a way to minimize the difficulties associated with them. As stated in other threads (you could do a search using "sump" as a search parameter) many sumps are uncovered  and have a lot of splashing inside. This combination tends to out-gas the CO2 making it difficult to saturate the water properly. The solution is obvious, but may not be easy; eliminate or minimize the amount of splashing in the sump, and cover the sump to slow the escape of CO2. End of problem.
> 
> The next step of course is to have a sump pump(s) that will satisfy the flow rate requirement and use the 10X rule as a guide. So a 1000L CO2 injected tank should have in the neighborhood of 10,000 LPH. With the availability of submersible pumps, this ought to be easy. You can inject the CO2 in-line preferably, or diffuse it in the sump first.
> 
> You ought to be able to fabricate a custom spraybar from acrylic tubing. There is a thread about this somewhere.
> 
> 480 watts T5 is a LOT of light. If the tubes are only 5 foot long then they ought to be staggered to the left and right to get more even coverage.
> 
> Cheers,


HI Ceg, thanks for the detailed reply, regarding the sump it's 3'6" * 16" * 18" (L * W * H) not quite 190 litres but thinking  if 10 times volume turnover of the main tank ( 1000 * 10) that would translate as over 50 times turn over in the sump which would be difficult to control ( the sump effectively being emptied and filled nearly every minute) to minimise splashing but a complete novice regarding sumps but maybe I could use the sump plus filters to get the turnover without having a whirlpool in the sump.
  The light unit is a complete unit so rather not break it up as usually when I touch electrical equipment that's it, no use to God nor man .


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## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*



			
				Bobtastic said:
			
		

> I think this is the thread that Clive is referring to Bending Clear Perspex Tubing. I tried it myself recently, the first two bends were ok, but the 3rd buckled a bit... I would suggest packing with more salt after each bend (and compacting) or using bending springs.


Thanks Bob will have another look at this, thought it was the answer to many a problem[


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## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*



			
				foxfish said:
			
		

> Wow that is some tank!
> 
> You could simplify your pumps & filters but I would need to know a little bit more about the sump before I could make any suggestions.
> 
> How big is the sump & what size, no of overflows are there in the tank?
> 
> You can definitely run a very successful planted tank using a sump & once set up & running the sump is a fantastic asset to have.


Suggest away, the sump is 3' 6" x 18" x 16 " but I have no return pump at the moment, the outflow from the tank is 50mm pipe on the left hand side if that makes any difference.Thanks for the response


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## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*



			
				vauxhallmark said:
			
		

> Wow, I hope you've got long arms!!
> 
> Can't wait to see how it goes!
> 
> Mark


'Fraid a bit of a short ass , would be comical to see me trying to reach the bottom so you WILL be certain I won't post those pics   Thanks for your post


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## danmil3s

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

good size tank mate don't know if you might be interested ive a sequence 10000 pond pump i no longer want its a good pump  with some fitting the only thing is its a bit noisy probably to be expected with a pond pump. it was in my living room though, so if you don't spend all your time next to your tank it might be OK. not sure where you are so don't know about postage its heavy and large.


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## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

Hi mate, live in the green isle ,Ireland so more than a step away but thanks for the offer,would a pond pump be suitable or too strong I'm not too sure.THe tank will be in the kitchen and once the family's in there silence is gone out the window.


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## foxfish

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

Great project   I guesse your sump is quite a complex design, does it have a trickle filter built in?
The main issue is with the overflow as the sump can be replaced with virtually any suitable container, a 50mm overflow pipe would coupe with a lot of water  
Personally I would use a basic tank as the sump, something that is easily covered, like a 4' glass tank. (or your sump if it is just one tank)
I would overflow the water into one end & pump from the other with a net bag of bio balls in-between = very simple.
I would use two sump pumps of around 3000lph as that is about max you can flow through 16mm pipe then you could use two inline atomisers feeding two spray bars.
all you need then is some extra internal movement via four koralia circulation pumps.
However I really think you need to think about how you are going to scape the tank first of all, considering the length of your lights you might want to keep the areas either side free of plants or use plants that are not so light dependant?


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## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

Hi firefox, really appreciate the help here, not sure about the sump as I haven't seen it yet but will be collecting it Sunday.It was used in a reef tank as the seller is changing to a bigger tank (10' x 2' x 2.5') and larger sump bringing total litres to over 1,600. It will be sitting on a stainless steel stand  (coming with the tank). Regrading trickle filters I honestly don't know but interested in your idea of a simple sump as I have several 4' tanks sitting around (got them very cheap when a local pet closed) as I thought the baffles were to slow flow for more contact time with the bacteria.Do you think I would need the externals with the sump or would they be needed to supplement the sump.I have one circulation pump that's meant to provide 12,000 per hour that's coming with the tank. Like your idea of two return pumps as think I might run into problems regarding CO2 being distributed evenly in the tank.Please forgive my naivety with several aspects of the planted tanks but a few short months ago I was trying desperately to keep nitrate and phosphates as low as possible so coming around to seeing the light


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## sanj

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

Hey,

on my 1600litre I do use two co2 reactors (aquamas from Germany) going through two smaller filters (originally 2x tetratec ex1200s), from 2x5kg cylinders. They last about 2 months or so before refils. My fx5 is then left free as the main filter and for flow. Although the major flow providers are from two mp40 powerheads. So in total 3 filters and 2 powerheads.

I use two 4ft powermodules units for lighting. I am thinking that you should not panic straight off with the lighting. Is it a pendant light and can you raise this about 12-15" from the water surface that way you will get more light spread albeit less on the edges, but you can plant accordingly (lower light plants for example).


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## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

Hi Sanj, I've read about your tank here (the acrylic tank, just to make sure I've the right one?)A real beauty!!   It's not so much panic but the 7 P's. I don't want to be looking at the tank scratching my thick skull wondering which side is up.I wonder if you would be so kind as to put a link to your reactors as I'm sure they would solve the problem with CO2 distribution, and again with the lights I'm sure that's the solution, I've quite alot of crypts growing in a 5' tank that would be happier at the edges of the new tank.


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## foxfish

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

Another simple option & probably the most effective way to get loads of Co2 around your tank would be via two needle wheel sumps pumps.
 The only trade off is a visible mist of micro bubbles however this can be viewed as a good thing because you get to see exactly were the gas is flowing (or not flowing).
I used this method for years, you simply inject the co2 via a bubble counter into the pump inlet where the specially designed impeller smashes the co2 bubbles into an almost liquid state.

This is a very popular method with the Americans who use large tanks.

At the moment I have an "UP" atomiser fitted in front of my sump pupm & that works in a similar way but, now I have thought about this I think your bubble count would be to high on your tank to utilise the UP system?

Our very own "Plantbrain" is using a needle wheel on his latest set up. 
http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f= ... in#p160082
http://www.aquatics-online.co.uk/catalo ... -pumps.asp


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## sanj

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*



			
				mrjackdempsey said:
			
		

> Hi Sanj, I've read about your tank here (the acrylic tank, just to make sure I've the right one?)A real beauty!!   It's not so much panic but the 7 P's. I don't want to be looking at the tank scratching my thick skull wondering which side is up.I wonder if you would be so kind as to put a link to your reactors as I'm sure they would solve the problem with CO2 distribution, and again with the lights I'm sure that's the solution, I've quite alot of crypts growing in a 5' tank that would be happier at the edges of the new tank.




Here you go, I used a translator on the website when i ordered from them back in 2008. http://www.aquamas.de/CO2-Zubehoer/CO2-Reaktoren

The ATI powermodule is popular in the reef hobby for the high PAR ratings, but you dont need that high output. I have 4x54w models (x2) raised 15-18" above the water, with all lights on I still get 80-100 PAR at the substrate, when really around 50 would be a good level ( as in more easy to manage) with half the light on (2 on each unit) I get around 30 (25-40 range) at the substrate which is fine for most plants. Ideally it is better to have an equal amount of PAR across the substrate. The 4x54w  module is approx £400 each, the Sunpower is cheaper and all that is different is cosmetic (i think). You can get them from many places in the UK, just one example: http://www.fastlight.co.uk/acatalog/ATI_Powermodule_T5_Pendants.html


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## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

Thanks for more food for thought, never really looked into needle wheel pumps but not sure if I would  be happy with a CO2 mist but will certainly look into it .At the moment think I will go with the sump ( after dismissing the idea as too complicated), two sump pumps feeding a (maybe a DIY) CO2 reactor each through a home made spraybar(thinking at the moment that I join the spray bars at the centre , each bar being slightly less than 4' but will be nearly the 8' when joined). At the moment I have plants growing in a 5' foot tank and hoping to use these for the majority of the planting and just getting a couple of others if needed.Have lots of bogwood collected including some sumps 18" across but despite soaking for nearly six months still alot of tannins leeching from the wood so unsure if these would be suitable.Was going to use moss on the stumps along with Bolbitis to look like ferns and on the straight pieces of bog wood use Anubias and Java fern, these pieces being will need to be made smaller as some are over 15" thick and even too long for the tank, maybe easier not to use them? Only a few more days before collecting the tank and can't really get my head around it. Thinking I should of started on a (far) smaller tank


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## sanj

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*



> Thinking I should of started on a (far) smaller tank



Nope, dont be silly you will love it and be glad. You have so much scope, no need to rush either. Dont take what the apologists say, size does matter!


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## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*



			
				sanj said:
			
		

> Thinking I should of started on a (far) smaller tank
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, dont be silly you will love it and be glad. You have so much scope, no need to rush either. Dont take what the apologists say, size does matter!
Click to expand...

Must really remember that ,always be told it's not what you have but how you use it that counts   Maybe I should aim for both,size and use of


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## foxfish

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

Re the mist - possibly the biggest improvement in recent years regarding Co2 distribution has come from the new generation of atomisers like the UP ...




Most folk who use these devices will praise there performance however they also produce a mist but lets put this perspective - the mist is incredibly fine & only visible from very close up.
Needle wheel pumps produce a very similar mist but its just a descriptive term & in reality the mist is hardly noticeable if you stand back even a few feet.
Of course there is nothing wrong with C02 reactors (apart from perhaps the lake of traceable mist   ) I have built many of them & they most definitely work.
However reactors are just another piece of bulky equipment to regulate & maintain...
I have some pics of DIY reactors & there is plenty of info available on the net.


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## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

Seen plenty who recommend the UP atomisers and must admit to be a wee bit ignorant on the whole about dissolving CO2, at the moment using my FX5 intake to do the business for me but read it might not be the best for the filter itself and may damage the impeller but so far so good   
    Next problem is with the bog wood ( as in big bog wood) and the amount of tannins it releases, could soak some of the smaller pieces in the bath but the larger pieces not a hope unless I break them up some how.Somehow it feels wrong breaking something that could be many hundreds of years up just for my pleasure but then practicalities.....


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## sanj

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*



> Re the mist - possibly the biggest improvement in recent years regarding Co2 distribution has come from the new generation of atomisers like the UP ...



Hi, would you say these work better than a reactor? In my smaller tank I have had a problem with BBA and staghorn although not in the larger tank, but anyway on the smaller tank the co2 enter the filter out take tube via a TMC co2 reactor.

My understanding is that these forms of algae are often associated with fluctuating co2 levels, i have alot of flow in the tank, but maybe the co2 is not still not dissolving consistantly.


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## bigmatt

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

i'm a big fan of the UP atomizer. You do get a fine mist but this is only visible really close up, and a visible mist lets you SEE your co2 distribution which is really handy. You could put the bogwood straight in the tank then use lots of activated carbon in the filter to soak up the staining? Matt


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## foxfish

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

Sanj, I think that a well set up reactor, especially one that is made from clear material, work just fine.
The only problems with the UP are - limited flow on a big tank, quite hight pressure required to operate them & the difficulty cleaning them.
However there are new similar devices coming on the market now, perhaps the concept will develop into more user friendly models.
No doubt getting the dissolved gas distributed around the tank is a very important aspect towards success - I am trying out a different method myself 
http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=15812


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## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

Thanks for the replies, certainly plenty to ponder ( think that's half the fun working out the solutions before the problems come along) was given a carrier bag of activated carbon today so have use of that.Will check out the UP atomiser then it's time to figure out the substrate, I am a awkward so and so.I have TetraPlus 'Complete Substrate' in the five foot tank covered with gravel so was thinking of sieving off the gravel and adding either a potting compost or Irish Moss Peat before using silica sand over everything, thinking cat litter would be blown around the tank, is the bonsai soil as light as cat litter?


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## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

Will be picking up the tank tomorrow (Sunday) feeling a little excited at the moment.Made a flat bed trolley today from 3/4" plywood (sheet cut in two,ending up 8' x 2' x 1 &1/2" thick) with eight castors so hopefully will come in useful tomorrow otherwise sore backs all around.Seeing the trolley has made the size of this tank hit home.First though is the 250 kilometre drive to the tank and again the same home but it will be worth it hopefully


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## sanj

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

I sold my 8'x2'x2' last year and I went out and bought two trollys for carrying loads. There were 3 people coming oto pick up the tank and I did not want to risk a disaster my side. Anyway what you have done is very sensible, the trolleys made life a hell of a lot easier.


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## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

Think I should tell the good lady but she might say NO!!!!!   Maybe it's easier to get forgiveness than permission.If you don't hear from me take it she wasn't happy


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## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

Got the tank and sump today all I can say is it's "BIG".Came with a metal stand made from 2" square section steel plus a Tunze stream 6125 powerhead plus the piping for the sump but no return pumps.The pipework is 50mm hard plastic and thinking should the return be flexible tubing (easier to connect to the UP atomisers/reactors) or the same hard plastic?Just that the lads I got the tanks from said it is less prone to leak from the hard plastic .Told you it was well named 'stupid is as stupid does', suits me to a tee.I can still use external filters to run the run the CO2 diffusers if need be
  Should the Tunze be ample for the tank (12,000 litres per hour) or should I get smaller powerheads as well? Will try to source the different pipes this week but think it will beat least a month before I can set it up so will try to use this time wisely to get what I need regarding return pumps, reactors (or atomisers) etc
 Like to thank all for their replies and kind answers or just even for your time reading my questions    
Dave


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## mrmatt

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

 feck   dave thats a big tank!!!! nope im not moving it inside your door either.... the 500 km drive was bad enuf...... esp as 250 of them were done at 130km/h with a steel stand resting on that tank.  



mrmatt


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## mrmatt

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

 feck   dave thats a big tank!!!! nope im not moving it inside your door either.... the 500 km drive was bad enuf...... esp as 250 of them were done at 130km/h with a steel stand resting on that tank.  



mrmatt


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## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

SHHHH! Matt , you drive like a old woman in a Micra, only teasing, she drive better.At least you got a 6' tank out of it plus a wee bit of exercise and umteen cups of coffee, can't say fairer than that.And probably need a hand getting it into the house when the lovely Yvonne has gone out


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## foxfish

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

Nice one Dave, we will be here to help if we can....
If you can get some more pictures up that would great.


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## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*



			
				foxfish said:
			
		

> Nice one Dave, we will be here to help if we can....
> If you can get some more pictures up that would great.


Cheers for that but the tank is in it's temporary home until I can sort out the kitchen (re home 4 tanks plus see if I can 'hide' a washing machine ,tumble dryer etc in the frame)Trying to made the frame to look like kitchen units( oak doors etc)and A false unit above to hide the light units ,maybe two to make up the 8' length.The kitchen is only 14' x 14' and in fairness to my better half she does put up with a lot with me and my fish tanks all around the house.I see such great looking tanks here in tidy rooms and it's filling me with shame so trying to make this look half way decent.


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## foxfish

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

Best advice from me would be to take your time.
Such a big & beautiful sized tank might take a fair bit of planning - take it easy, make good plans rather than gunho!


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## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*



			
				foxfish said:
			
		

> Best advice from me would be to take your time.
> Such a big & beautiful sized tank might take a fair bit of planning - take it easy, make good plans rather than gunho!


You're so right, like a marriage enter in haste ,regret at leisure!!!!! Will have no choice but take it slowly but that's half the fun, the planning plus the shopping


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## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

Update so far is incredibly slow, ordered two Eheim 1260 pumps for the sump, plus bogwood that has been soaking for the last 6 months got rinsed today, some pieces have broken up but far more interesting shapes for it plus put a bogwood sump in to soak. It's about 18" wide at the widest, 16" front to back and 16" high, other pieces are far bigger and would dwarf even the 8' tank but might try to split them into smaller pieces. Some of the pieces are quite boring but thinking I could use straighter pieces as branches. Was working the other day and speaking to a farmer and he had a beautiful piece in his front room about 2'6" X 2'6" x2'6" but the most beautiful shape imaginable.It was varished so no good but he said to me that he is always pulling up bogwood and has thrown hundreds of pieces to the side of the fields and that I'm welcome to take as many pieces as I want.He was saying the wood gets caught in the blades of the plow and some pieces are weird shapes the way the roots grow looking like people or animals.There are peoples who polish this wood and sell it as works of art, it goes very hard and can take a high gloss from polishing.Pity it takes so long getting the tannins out.................


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## foxfish

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

The 1260 pumps are good pumps, I have had them running for 8 years none stop with no problems!
However I think they require 18mm return pipe to get the max flow, you might need to think about your reactor choice?
If you decide on the UP units I would fit them just in front of the pumps inlet so you dont lose flow through having to reduce the return pipe size.
(Personally I would of bought one 1260 & one needle wheel version 1260)
The bog wood sounds interesting....
Any pics of the sump?


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## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

One of the Eheims is the needle wheel ( second hand from the lad who sold me the tank in the first place) and the second is brand new from zooplus as they're doing a special at the moment plus 10% off.Not to sure about the UP atomisers as have read they are for 200 - 300 litre tanks and even two is only 600 litres but I might have that wrong.Will be able to get the oak doors at trade price which is handy to keep prices down.
  Here's a pic or two of the sump, it's missing two walls(have one cut today from a broken tank) and that was one of the reasons I was going sump less but advised by your good selves here on this site and on my local site to use the sump so will do







Put a fire extinguisher (2kg) to give a sense of scale and hopefully distract from the mess
Again here is one of my regrettably stupid questions; with the overfow it's near the top of the tank and if there is a power cut it's fine as the water will only drop to that level from that pipe BUT with the spraybar(s) being so much lower (near the substrate) will that cause the water to siphon back to the sump, causing the sump to overflow.Should I drill a hole just under the water level to break the siphon when the water level drops to that level causing air to be sucked in. Hopefully you understand my question and concern but if you don't understand please tell me and I try to do a diagram (freehand, as I am really computer illiterate) as concerned on this point.Sorry for constantly asking questions


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## foxfish

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

OK then you wont need any reactors or anatomises if you have a needle wheel pump, you just need a bubble counter & a bit of Co2 line.
I would hope a single 1260 NW fed direct from the sump to a full length spray bar would be fine, actually I dont think you need a second sump pump just a some more internal water movement via 3-4 circulating pumps.
You sump looks like a basis tank conversion so if you have a spare 4' tank I would use that instead.
I would use the new pump you have bought to recirculate the sump water.
I can post  a diagram of what I think would work tomorrow, you can then give it some thought as there are lots of options.....


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## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

Thanks again , have a friend with two pumps in his sump with the second split to recirculate the water in the sump but don't understand the reasoning behind this unless it's to filter the water twice(?).Would be nice to see a diagram as it makes it easier to understand.Thought the two pumps would be needed to increase water flow in the main tank but have a tunze powerhead that's rated at 12,000 litres per hour and a FX5 if needed and somesmaller powerheads  rated at 900 litres per hour. Regarding the siphon problem ( or at least in my head)  does anyone have a solution? When this tank was marine the return was just below the surface whereas I think I would need it as deep as possible which would cause problems if there was a power cut.Would a hole drilled in the return pipes just below the water line cause the siphon to break once the water level drops below the hole?Maybe better to use a external to mix the CO2 and just use the sump for filtration?


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## foxfish

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

You just drill a 2mm hole at water level, this will squirt water across the suface to make a lovely ripple effect & break the siphon. ( you can see this effect on virtually every spectacular tank featured on the forum)
You dont want to pour to much water over the overflow as this will very effectively rids your tank of precious C02!
You want to get as effective as possible biological filtration in the sump, you will get this by re circulating the sump water over the bioballs.
Internal circulating pumps work much better that powerheads as they are designed to move lots of water without directing a jet like a powerhead.


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## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

Thanks for the peace of mind about the siphon problem, certainly taking advantage of your mind and experience, thanks again. Would the Tunze 6125 stream be suitable for the tank and would it be better on the back wall firing forward (with the spray bars) or the side wall to mix everything better?


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## foxfish

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

Well here is a very basic diagram..
As I dont know your DIY skill level, I dont know to what extent you want to take your sump fitting out?
However this basic design works very well, the idea is to have a large amount of biological filter material contained in a mesh bag.
The mesh bag can be easily removed & rinsed in a bucket durring a water change (using tank water) once a month.
This makes the filters bio media extremely easy to maintain. When the bag is out of the sump you can syphon the bottom completely clean as well!


----------



## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

Thanks for the effort of drawing the plans, certainly helps. Very similar to what I was planning but I was going to use the two pumps to return the water from the sump (someone suggested I use two pumps x 3000 litres to build up flow) but would it be better to recirculate the water in the sump with one pump? I was going to use two four foot spray bars (one from each pump) to return the water to the tank (mirror image one from the left and one from the right meeting at the centre)
Sump design is a good idea especially for maintaince the only difference with mine was first layers of sponge as a pre filter then the media and finally fine filter wool before the pump(s).


----------



## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

Here are my rough diagrams and even rougher pics.On the diagram I didn't put in the spray bar and return on the left (lazy I know)



And the sump



 Not to scale


----------



## foxfish

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

You must do whatever you think is best I can only offer you a few ideas   

Yes of course sponge before the bio media, but you wont need any fine floss.

If  you think of your main tank as a glass of fizzy drink you can imagine what you are up against in regard to keeping the C02 in suspension rather than disappearing down the overflow!
I cant guarantee that a single needle wheel pump will supply enough C02 distribution but, i think it will  :? 
It will also depend on your plant layout, if you have a full tank of plants then you may have serious issues with satisfying all of them with a consistent supply of gas?
If it was my tank i would really think hard about the layout & planting design - lots of beautiful scape's have free area around the plants, imagine an island (or two) of plants.
I like this type of scape for lots of reasons.... you can clean the glass all around the tank, the fish can swim behind the plants, you can get a much better flow of C02 all around the tank.
Certainly, two NW pumps connected to two independent Co2 sources would be the business, if that is with in  your budget then that would be a full on solution!!
You cant control the flow into the sump via a return valve, only by the flow going into the tank!
You also need to consider a top up valve from your main water supply, the sump will keep the main tank level consistent but the sump its self will drop its water level quite quickly!
Lots of planning & thought required


----------



## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

Really appreciate the time and effort you have taken and you have helped me no end.I have seen your tank after the leak and think your idea of no plants around the sides is a good one especially as my lights are only 5' tubes.Rang to confirm about the needle wheel pump and the impeller is broken so think I have two options - either a reactor such as this one
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CO2-Bypass-Aussen ... 2ea52da555
or the atomiser 
http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/up-co2- ... -5432.html
or 2 of the atomisers.Seem to be going in circles and haven't even started yet,goodness knows what I be like when I do ,grey hairs everywhere.Wait they are already here!!! The tap is on the output from the tank and was used to regulate the flow into the sump when it was a reef tank but how fine or crude the amount changed I don't know.There is also a tap on the pipework back to the tank but again don't know how the extent this changed the flow.Don't know where I find the Eheim needle wheel pump now.Will ring around tomorrow but the choice here in Eire wouldn't come close to the UK.Again thanks for the time and effort you have taken
   Dave


----------



## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

And circles again   Trying to find info about the needle wheel pump and came across this
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthrea ... st11153052
The material to 'create' the bristles is Enkamat,used to keep land  from eroding and I have a fish keeping friend who is a landscape gardener who has the same material so might chance my hand and 'mod' one of the Eheim's (the second hand one).Funny thing is that this friend said I be mad adding nitrates etc to my tank so ironic that he will be helping me to do this


----------



## foxfish

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

I am not sure how successful those type of mods would be for your purpose, I think you might lose a lot of flow?
The link show the modified pump powering a recirculating protein skimmer with zero head!
The easy way to mod the pumps impeller is to simply melt tiny holes with a red hot pin.
 I have fed C02 into unmodified pumps with quite good result is small tanks but the mist is quite visible.
Still, if you keep searching the net you can find some great articles about modding pumps...unfortunately I think setting up an 8' tank will always cost quite a lot of money - have you decided on the C02 cylinder or cylinders?
Edit....
I have done a bit of my own revision & it would appear to me that the size of needle wheel pumps we have been discussing might not have the power (head) to feed enough water & gas mix from your sump to your tank!
However I think I will make a post on our resident "Plant Brains" thread were he has just set up a NW & sump system to see what he thinks.... viewtopic.php?f=35&t=14873&p=165644#p165644


----------



## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

Looked into the specs of the Eheim pump and the head is over 10 feet so hopefully will be enough. Funny thing is with this mod the pump uses less watts and pumps more litres per hour.Think it must be that the air/ water mix weighs less than water alone.Carbon dioxide duties will be carried out with two x 10 kgs cylinders, the ones used for fizzy drinks in restaurants. A local restaurant closed and I got the two for free which was handy   I have two regulators, one TMC (no problems) and the other is 'Hydro' which the bubble count gets lower over time and has to be constantly adjusted. You are so right about cost in a 8' tank.Every step seems to cost more and more yet I haven't put a drop of water in the tank yet   .finished work early today and went looking to see if I could find bulk head fittings locally and went to a plumbers supply depot and of course couldn't but....and it's a nice but, was told why don't I call in to the next unit which was a plastic fabricating workshop so in I went.Was talking to supervisor there and explained to him what I needed and he said it would be no problem to get want I wanted.He then told me that the owner of the workshop is the brother of one of the owners of Seahorse Aquariums in Dublin (one of the the biggest fish retail units in Eire) and when Seahorse designed and built the aquariums in the Maher children hospital they supplied and fitted all the pipes, fittings needed for them including some they had to build from scratch. Thought I ask about the acrylic tube for the spray bar and he said no problem and they would be able to bend it to whatever shape I wanted plus drill the outlets for me.Asked me why I didn't use polycarbonate instead as acrylic can be brittle over that length but I don't know which would be better.Ask also about a reactor for the CO2 and he said if I can draw it they can make it.Told me bring in a sketch of it and see if they can make it cheaper than what's available commercially so will try. He said call back another day and talk to the owner about fish and I should get a hefty discount   At least some good news


----------



## bigmatt

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

That is very, very good news!
M


----------



## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*



			
				bigmatt said:
			
		

> That is very, very good news!
> M


Thanks Matt thinking I should now call into Waterford Glass and ask for lily pipes,   though would the lead in crystal be dangerous   Hopefully there will be good news about the fittings.Just got offered 2 Acadia 4' light units at cost so might try these for lights


----------



## foxfish

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

You might find some inspiration by reading this thread http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=10171


----------



## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

Inspiration and sore eyes from all the reading


----------



## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

Tank is going really slow what with work commitments and other more pressing jobs in the house but trying to get back on track and nearly ready for bringing the tank into the house. Am thinking about the volume of water (around 1,100 litres not including sump) and the best way to introduce CO2 and thinking maybe this might be my best option  but wondering if you clever lot can think of different options 
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CO2-Anlage-Ma ... 20acf55e8d
 kind regards 
               Dave


----------



## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

Just a little update regarding the tank and apologies for my lead feet as I really moved at a snail's pace here    .I brought the tank inside in the middle of November as I was getting worried it might crack in a frost but needed a little help as the tank weighs a few hundred kilos. I had the tank on a flat bed trolley (home made) which thankfully made the whole job easier, pushing rather than lifting. First I had to move three tanks out of the way, the biggest being a five foot tank housing some SA cichlids then tear out some of my wife's kitchen, dumped her dish washer as the kitchen isn't that big   . The mess was something of biblical proportions plus I 'lost' the screws of the kitchen door but it did teach the young fellow a very valuable lesson - don't try to slam the door or it will pin you to the fridge (it's alright, the door was fine after). I will post some pictures of the move later but could never repeat the words out of my good wife's mouth when she came home with one of her friends plus a gaggle of small kids as the cofas were up-ended plus the mess mentioned earlier but I survived that   The tank and stand are now taller than myself but more of that later........


----------



## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

Here goes, proof the tank came in ( plus my inability to keep things organised)
After moving the smaller tanks to their new home then it was the turn of the 5' tank. First out were the plants who were 'sheltered' in a plastic box after being hauled out of the tank




Then Derek used some tank water to keep them going before catching the fish, here also you will see my idea of tidying up is put it in a bag and toss it on the fridge



The stand is in but wondering where it is going to go   Not really, at this stage I decided I was going to use the 5' tank as a sump and we were wondering how to get it into the stand



 That done we're gone to get the tank while Derek stayed back to admire the stand, he has a gift in avoiding work



Here the tank is in place and Joe (Bogman on this forum) uses new mop heads to soak up the rain water. You can tell Joe is a fish keeper by his T-shirt



In this picture you can tell Joe has had enough of us laughing so it's time we got him the ladder



No sooner than that's done Joe is inside the tank cleaning, what a trooper   



Some Anubias awaiting it's new home, this is after I broke about 8" off



I leave it at that now before I bore you senseless, next will be the laughable attempt at planting it especially when it dawned on me I can't reach the bottom of the tank


----------



## Alastair

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

Hoooge tank. I wish I had space for something that big. Subscribed :0)


----------



## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*



			
				Alastair said:
			
		

> Hoooge tank. I wish I had space for something that big. Subscribed :0)


Cheers Alastair, it is quite big, the sides are 12mm and the bottom 15mm plus 8mm braces all around but the worse is the 8mm, 18 inch wide brace bang on the centre of the tank which combined with the height of the tank makes everything arkward   
Sorry about the late update but I was at a medieval wedding in a 11th century castle in Galway which while great craic took up alot of time but better late than never, I hope. With the planting I had great trouble as already mentioned I couldn't reach the bottom of the tank until I found a 10" tweezers for feeding reptiles, though after each plant I had to jump down from the ladder to make sure it looked okay.So here goes.......
The Madagascar plant took a hiding while in storage



Here you can see that central brace holding up the light unit



Some corkscrew willow that has been pre soaked along with some bog wood



Here is the ladder that saved my sanity



Here is where I left it after the first night planting, there is a right snow storm going on in there 



Here you can see the bogwood stump it's about 18" front to back, likewise side to side and nearly the same height



Some of the spare (broken) bits of Anubias in their new home



The killing thing is after all this I didn't like the tank so changed it again so I'm curious whether you will approve of the changes I made or still think it looks rubbish. In hindsight I should have had a extra pair of eyes to help as I didn't always have a look myself as it was too much hassle at the time to keep getting off the ladder


----------



## Alastair

*Stupid is as stupid does*

I quite like how it looks/looked. How have you changed It


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----------



## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

Here are some of the updates in the tank, I moved the Coffeefolia away from the glass on the left as you look at it 



Added another piece of bogwood, this being over four foot long and weighing a absolute ton, in fact when I was putting it into the tank I nearly head first in until I left it drop.I have a large rock on it to keep it and smaller pieces from moving as I didn't think I would be using this piece so it was no longer soaking



Although I moved the Madagascar behind the willow I left the Crinum in front of another 'stump' but have since moved it as I found it distracting



Slightly different view,please ignore the rock on the wood as it only had a temporary job as as a weight



What I feel is still the weakest part of the tank



One of the new inhabitants, a wild caught apistogramma cacatuoides surveying his new home

Just click on the picture to get it to play
A pair of apistogramma baenschi also taking a look



Some of the plants thickening up



The 'stumps' brought closer together



Hiding amongst the plants



The cockatoo cichlid feeling at home



More pics, sorry but please do say what I should move, change, replace









Please do say where I should change or strenghten the 'design' as this is my first attempt at trying to 'scape a tank and feel I need a little guidance just to keep me on the straight and narrow


----------



## Alastair

*Stupid is as stupid does*

That looks heeps better mate. I really like it. I can't spot anything that looks out of place. Love that big piece of wood too I'm a sucker for large pieces :0) 


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----------



## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

Thanks Alastair, you're heading for sainthood with that little white fib but thanks for building my confidence


----------



## Alastair

*Stupid is as stupid does*

T'wasnt a fib I was being serious lol



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----------



## hinch

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

have enjoyed the pictures I've been looking at my big tank recently thinking I want to have a bash in there but had no idea's due to it size.

how did you end up filtering it in the end sump or normal externals its not quite clear from your pictures (or I'm blind)


----------



## danmil3s

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*

tanks really taking shape mate looks quiet natural . what did you go for in the end with regards to substrate?


----------



## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does*



			
				Alastair said:
			
		

> T'wasnt a fib I was being serious lol


Thanks Alastair, means a lot


			
				hinch said:
			
		

> have enjoyed the pictures I've been looking at my big tank recently thinking I want to have a bash in there but had no idea's due to it size.
> 
> how did you end up filtering it in the end sump or normal externals its not quite clear from your pictures (or I'm blind)


  Don't hold back on the big tank as it is a very enjoyable learning curve despites difficulties encountered. Filtration at the moment is a number of externals while I try to finish the pipework to the sump (plus the fact there's a number of cichlids in the tank that is to become the sump), thanks hinch


			
				danmil3s said:
			
		

> tanks really taking shape mate looks quiet natural . what did you go for in the end with regards to substrate?


 Hi mate, regards the substrate I used kiln dried Silica sand (100 kgs) plus 20 kgs of John Innes No 2 compost underneath. Thanks for kind words


----------



## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does( work comes to a standstill)*

Decided to post up to date photos today as I had changed a couple of things over the past week or so. Out comes the camera and away I click then spotted something that is going to stop me putting my hands in the tanks. More of what that was later, first the pics........
See if you notice small changes   



Am really going to have to sort the light unit



Here you can see the mess of filter hoses etc.



A little more detail



This is where the problem lies



Just pull back a little



Last and probably least down the side of the tank



Wondering can anyone guess the cause of my stopping work inside the tank for a while?


----------



## hinch

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does( work comes to a standstill)*

you has babies?


----------



## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does( work comes to a standstill)*

Yep, was at the tank when I saw the 'patter' of ..................errrrrrrrr little fins. Mother apistogramma baenschi was out guarding her pride and joy plus chasing any fish that came too close for comfort,caught it on the i-phone but you will have to fill the screen with the video as they are quite small, just look at the top of the stone to see them. Probably a good thing really as it will make me leave the tank alone for a little while and stop fidgeting with it. Just click on the picture to get it to work

  Forgive the noise I live in the house with too many girls


----------



## greenjar

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does( work comes to a standstill)*

Nice little video...always really nice to see this kind of thing....well done


----------



## danmil3s

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does( work comes to a standstill)*

thanks for the info mate. I might re scape my tank next year, year after if I actual grow something in my small tank. This time i plan on planing the plans, and getting it right So all information is vital. thanks for sharing your expectancies mate.


----------



## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does( work comes to a standstill)*

Mother and babies are still doing fine, she has gone a brilliant yellow with black stripes, black pelvic fins with red on the outside edge.She seems to open them when she wants the babies to come to her if they strayed too far or if she wants them to move en masse.At least it keeps my hands out of the tank and leave things settle and grow for awhile.Dad also is acting in a very protective manner but higher up so he can fend other fish off far earlier, all I can say is 'Wow, he can certainly move' as he chases Cardinals or whatever out of his terrority


----------



## vygec

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does( work comes to a standstill)*

you have done a real nice job on your setup there.


----------



## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does( work comes to a standstill)*

Sad news I afraid, couldn't see any babies today and parents are not acting aggressive so fairly sure they're gone. Hopefully they will attempt it again


----------



## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does( work comes to a standstill)*

Was going to clean the glass of the aquarium because of spilt macro mix (the white lines running down the glass as the aquarium is above my head and I'm clumpsy   )Of course the fish thought it was dinner time so I thought I catch a video as the fish will be changed soon due to the arrival of six leopoldi angels in January.Still haven't touch the tank as the Baenschi are back at it again but i don't think you see in the video.Forgive the mess but I worked the last two weeks solid so W/C tomorrow

Click on the pic to get it to work


----------



## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does(painted black)*

Life is so unfair!!! Pinocchio has the benefit of Jimmy Cricket yet I have no one to stop me doing stupid things. You think my good wife would have learned by now to say 'NO' to every idea, scheme ,dream or whatever comes into my head or maybe that's why I do these things while she's out! Anyway I decided in my wisdom that I was going to paint the sides and the back of the tank black but didn't think how difficult it would be to reach behind a 8' tank that's 30 inches high to paint especially as it is flanked by a fridge one side and washing machine with a tumble dryer on it on the other side. And there was no way that tank could be moved having over a tonne of water inside   .After several hours and three coats I was finished , bruised but finished and...... I didn't like it   
   I'm not sure if it will grow on me over time but one thing is certain I cannot change it as it was hard enough to paint it I couldn't go through scrapping it. Let me know what you think 










Individual plants do stand out more



But the black looks grey with the light hitting it



As a side note the Morpho tetras have coloured up plus the Baenschi have lots of new babies


----------



## Alastair

*Stupid is as stupid does(painted black)*

Well worth the frustration of painting it mate. Looks great 


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----------



## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does(painted black)*

Thanks Alastair, have come 180 degree turnabout and liking it now and got positive feedback from family and friends about how it 'finishes the tank' so think I was a little premature. My problem is I want everything and I want it now regarding the tank rather than give the tank time to deliver. Patience is a virtue I don't have  :?


----------



## mdhardy01

*Stupid is as stupid does(painted black)*

Back of my 5footer is black and I think it brings out the colour of the fish and plants more and gives greater feeling of depth
Matt


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----------



## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does(painted black)*



			
				mdhardy01 said:
			
		

> Back of my 5footer is black and I think it brings out the colour of the fish and plants more and gives greater feeling of depth
> Matt


  I have to agree with you Matt, though I do think black does bring the back wall closer and also show a lot more reflections



Here my seven year old is looking at the tank to give a sense of scale but you can see every reflection in the tank from the kitchen (the kitchen is lit by ordinary sun light) plus the back seems closer than it really is. I do think the positives outweigh the negatives all the same especially now as the bruises have gone from painting it in the first place


----------



## mdhardy01

*Stupid is as stupid does(painted black)*




As you can see in mine having some taller plants to break up the back helps alot 
I highly  recommend  some crypt balansae for this or any stems and of course Vallis 
Matt


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----------



## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does(painted black)*

You are spot on Matt, just to break up the expanse of black . I have Balansae in another tank that I might try or some nice stem plant. Trouble is there is very poor choice here but I might get a chance to look
In Dublin this weekend as I'm collecting a rather large fish order ( for me) from South America. Next photos there may be some new inhabitants swimming about


----------



## Mark Evans

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does(painted black)*

Hi mate,

To get deep blacks, it's best not to put the background directly onto the glass, but put it onto the wall, then try to shield the light falling onto the back. If you dont, you'll get a 'dark grey' instead of black.

Black is always tough.





It's always the light falling onto the glass/background that screws things up.









The opposite if you want a coloured background...let the light spill onto the background...


----------



## Mark Evans

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does(painted black)*

Another to add to the black debate...


----------



## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does(painted black)*

Thanks Mark, kick me when I'm down   .Seriously your photos are what I had hoped for ( a little 'white lie' as even my imagination couldn't think up that vivid black with such beautiful plants) The trouble is my son broke my lap top screen so it's connected to my tv which is a Pioneer which really rubs in how black your blacks are. I think at this stage I'm going to have to live with my charcoal grey background until I can work out if it is worth the grief of scrapping the paint off and starting fresh or just conceding defeat. I was hoping to put polystyrene between the wall and the back of the tank to help insulate everything. I should dare you to sort out my tank but that wouldn't be fair to anyone.The trouble is even if I stood next to the corner of the tank I couldn't even come close to reaching half way along the tank but the more I think about it the more your method makes sense. Might have to spend time thinking of a solution and here I thought fish tanks would be a great way of relaxing


----------



## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does(painted black)*

Took the easy option and moved my lights forward and that really helped though hasn't solved it completely    Thanks Mark
   Was trying to come up with a solution of introducing CO2 into the tank and was looking at different methods mentioned by you clever lads earlier in the thread such as atomisers, reactors, diffusers etc and had sort off settled on two of these  or something similar
http://www.swelluk.com/aquarium/co2-and ... er-87.html
Then there was the problem of having no credit card so who would I ask for a favour   ( I would've paid first,honest) So I thought why not knock up a temporary one while I was waiting with 'stuff' around the house.I must admit the idea came to me from Alastair's DIY reactor for the FX5.I had a old UV sterilizer that I took apart, some 2" pipe etc.



 The inside of the UV, I started cutting it when the idea came to me to document the build IF it worked.



Finished cutting it then had to seal the ends where the bulb fitted with the end caps that had the flat part of fish food lids cut to fit, sealed with Tec7 and a heavy rubber washers to make them water tight



Closer look at the end caps



I drill a 5.5mm hole near the top of the pipe, forced in a one way valve with solvent cement. Heated the pipe on a gas ring so could force each half of the UV units on the ends of the pipe plus liberal use of solvent cement. It's been working since Saturday ( 5 days) with no problems or leaks. I had to guess the bubble count but everything seems okay ,small bit of pearling but as it's on 24/7 I won't adjust it until I get a few more parts



Closer look at the business end plus I found a bigger UV unit that I will try to make into a taller unit for the FX5



The tiles are 1' x 2' just to indicate scale


----------



## Alastair

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does(plus as tight as tight can be)*

Excellent that mate, id never have thought to use that if I'd had one of those lying around. Big pat on the back for making those mate I reckon that's a first to use something like that. I'd definetly get a bubble counter on as you could end up gassing your fish. Although if you stick your ear to the pipe you should hear the bubbles popping into the reactor. 

Any reason why your running co2 24/7 mate?


----------



## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does(plus as tight as tight can be)*



			
				Alastair said:
			
		

> Excellent that mate, id never have thought to use that if I'd had one of those lying around. Big pat on the back for making those mate I reckon that's a first to use something like that. I'd definetly get a bubble counter on as you could end up gassing your fish. Although if you stick your ear to the pipe you should hear the bubbles popping into the reactor.
> 
> Any reason why your running co2 24/7 mate?


Thanks Alastair but you were the inspiration behind the idea so I can't take any credit there. Shows necessity is the mother of invention ( or copyright theft!!!) The reason behind the CO2 on 24/7 is because I haven't got a solenoid yet


----------



## Alastair

*Stupid is as stupid does(plus as tight as tight can be)*



			
				mrjackdempsey said:
			
		

> Alastair said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent that mate, id never have thought to use that if I'd had one of those lying around. Big pat on the back for making those mate I reckon that's a first to use something like that. I'd definetly get a bubble counter on as you could end up gassing your fish. Although if you stick your ear to the pipe you should hear the bubbles popping into the reactor.
> 
> Any reason why your running co2 24/7 mate?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Alastair but you were the inspiration behind the idea so I can't take any credit there. Shows necessity is the mother of invention ( or copyright theft!!!) The reason behind the CO2 on 24/7 is because I haven't got a solenoid yet
Click to expand...


Ha ha right I'm screwing you for copyright fraud then.....saying that I pinched the idea from ed seeley so that's me in trouble oops. 
I'm actually in the process of making two Shorter ones for my eheims. 

Just turn the cylinder valve off then ;0). 
I use lunapet solenoid valve it was a bargain and works totally silent. Took 4 days to come from ze Germans but great bit of kit 


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----------



## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does(plus as tight as tight can be)*

Funny enough I did that tonight (switch off the CO2, that is) as I think this reactor is too big for the smaller external and I started to see a build up of gas.  Trouble is I'm not in the house often enough to switch it on/off regularly or even remember but I am picking up a solenoid soon from a friend . Next are the spraybars . Do you notice the bright lads have everything sorted beforehand not when the tank is running


----------



## Alastair

*Stupid is as stupid does(plus as tight as tight can be)*

That makes me not very bright then Too ha ha. It did look a tad long that reactor. 50cm should be fine for a smaller filter. 


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----------



## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does(plus as tight as tight can be)*

Went to Dublin today to get some new babies and ended up getting a awful lot more than I originally planned. I have a friend who went over to South America with Heiko Bleher to see the Amazon plus some of the major tributaries plus the chance to catch his own fish, to see them in their natural environment plus the chance to catch maybe some new and undescribed fish. And that they did, some apistogramma species named 'A 77' (stunning looking) and some recently discovered catfish ( can't remember the family group,shattered from travelling) Seen the photos of the catch sights plus some of the stories. A great time seemed to be had there
I was going up to collect some Leopoldi angels (not from this trip) but came away with a lot more including about 60 -70 cardinals , Different corys ( 4 species .......Axelrodi, Arcuatus,Melini and Melanotaenia ,27 in total) but saw some unusual ones that I couldn't get, like Green lazer, Gold lazer and I think CW 52 and some unusual Lno.s that I thought I had better say no to.Also got a pair of apisto Iniridae that I took a shine to but there was plenty on offer but not not 'A 77'   As I'm got long home and have work tomorrow at 5 AM I leave the pics or vids go to tomorrow


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## foxfish

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does(plus as tight as tight can be)*

Wow I Look forward to seeing the new fishes, they sound great.


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## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does(plus as tight as tight can be)*

Here's a quick video until I can get better shots please forgive quality as I took it on the i-phone (the iphone is fine just the idiot holding it )Click on the picture


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## awtong

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does(plus as tight as tight can be)*

The Angels are looking great!

Andy


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## sanj

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does(plus as tight as tight can be)*

Nice project, if you can get hold of all these fish especially if rare and wild caught, you want to start breeding them. 

Just a thought, shouldnt this whole thread be moved into the Journals section?


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## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does(plus as tight as tight can be)*



			
				awtong said:
			
		

> The Angels are looking great!
> 
> Andy


 Thanks Andy, I must admit I'm as pleased as punch especially as they coloured up now   


			
				sanj said:
			
		

> Nice project, if you can get hold of all these fish especially if rare and wild caught, you want to start breeding them.
> 
> Just a thought, shouldnt this whole thread be moved into the Journals section?


  Crazy thing is when I want to breed fish it's like they stick up two fingers at me yet when I have no expectations then I'm greeted with eggs.
 It should probably be moved to Journal section but I didn't start this thread with the thought of it being a journal so do apologize
  Dave 
P.S. Fish pics coming in a few minutes, just need to sort them out


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## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does ( New Fish)*

Back again, please note this is going to be picture heavy , sorry
































Maybe that was too many pics of the leopoldi, good job I say no to Altums    Though in fairness don't think I would ever go with Altums as it is too much of a risk



Male baenschi



Male Inirida



Morpho tetra hiding in the plants




A different Morpho



Female baenschi
I can't catch the corys in a photo as they are all over the place, I never seen such active corys. Here is a quick video of some. Click on this picture to see them 'play'

So sorry for all the photos but I took loads


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## Tim Harrison

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does ( New Fish)*

Don't apologise for all the photos they loaded just fine, and as they say an image is worth a thousand words (or something like that), and infinitely preferable in my opinion. Its shaping up well.


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## awtong

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does ( New Fish)*

What water parameters are you keeping the Leopoldi in?  Is it tap water or RO?

Andy


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## dw1305

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does ( New Fish)*

Hi all,
Lovely tank and some of my favourite fish. I don't think the female _Apistogramma_ is _A. baenschi_ they have vertical stripes, she is either _A. cacatuoides_ (or _A._ "schwarzkin"?). The male _baenschi_looks OK, and so does the _A. iniridae_ (good find). A77 is "_Apistogramma cf. eunotus _(Rio Huallaga)", so would be reasonably easy to keep.

cheers Darrel


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## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does ( New Fish)*



			
				Troi said:
			
		

> Don't apologise for all the photos they loaded just fine, and as they say an image is worth a thousand words (or something like that), and infinitely preferable in my opinion. Its shaping up well.


Many thanks for your kind words and I'm such a chatter box once I get going, pictures are definitely
 preferable  :wink 


			
				awtong said:
			
		

> What water parameters are you keeping the Leopoldi in? Is it tap water or RO?
> 
> Andy


 Hi Andy, water is treated tap water, PH is in between 6.5 and 7. Leopoldi are quite resilient like the more common angels but unlike the agile Altums and they seem to colour up a little more each day. Initially I was a little concerned that they might have a go at the cardinals and morpho tetra but they seem as good as gold.



			
				dw1305 said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> Lovely tank and some of my favourite fish. I don't think the female _Apistogramma_ is _A. baenschi_ they have vertical stripes, she is either _A. cacatuoides_ (or _A._ "schwarzkin"?). The male _baenschi_looks OK, and so does the _A. iniridae_ (good find). A77 is "_Apistogramma cf. eunotus _(Rio Huallaga)", so would be reasonably easy to keep.
> 
> cheers Darrel


 You are so right about the female apisto it IS cacatuoides not baenschi as I stated, I have pictures of the female baenschi but posted the wrong picture  At the moment the baenschi are guarding fry and are giving the other apistos a hard time. Regarding the A77 he wouldn't let any go, I did try but I was promised fry if they had any. The Apistogramma iniridae pair cost me €10 (just over £8 ) so was very happy with them. He also had the most amazing looking apistogramma agassizi (from different collection points so there were differences between them) but again he wasn't selling. I will try to find the picture of the female baenschi ( these are F1 not wilds) and the  male cockatoo (wild)
 Thanks all for your input ,truly appreciated
    Dave


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## awtong

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does ( New Fish)*

I was tempted to try some Leopoldi but thought my pH of around 7.0-7.2 might be a little high.  That's why I went for the wild Scalare as I thought they would be a little more tolerant.

You have got me wondering now if they might have been ok .....

Andy


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## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does ( New Fish)*

Hi Andy, I did google a plenty before even considering getting these and although they seem the rarest of the three known angels they are pretty robust and can take similar conditions that the scalare can. Post a picture of your wild angels if you don't mind I would love to see them. If the scalare are happy you should have no problems with leopoldi if you get them.


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## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does ( New Fish)*

and a few I missed out (picture wise)







The male cockatoo cichlid




Baenschi showing the female sheep'shead acara who is the boss


Baenschi doing their thing   You must click on the picture for the video to run


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## awtong

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does ( New Fish)*

Not wishing to hijack your thread but thought I would try and share a couple of pics with you.  Apologies for the photo's I don't have a great camera and my photography skills are non-existant!










Andy


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## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does ( New Fish)*

Well Andy, they are certainly eye candy, I wouldn't apologize for them . How old are they? Think this is the way good angels should look rather than the colour morphs etc that seems to be doing the rounds in our LFS's at the moment. Has anyone here got Altums in their planted tank?


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## awtong

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does ( New Fish)*

They certainly are lovely thanks for the compliment, and I agree with you about the natural look.  That's why we travelled over an hour to a store to get them when I could have bought the ususal LFS type from 20 minutes away and for about 1/5th the price.  

They are very young at the moment about the size of a 2p coin in the body, I have had them since November (Christmas pressie from the wife!  ).  They have taken a while to settle as I had a 3 stripe male that had a fin span of over 25cm but I lost him recently and since then these guys have come out of the shadows, grown a little and put on better colouration.

There is a journal on here called Tony's Triassic Hollow that has Altum Angels in it.  I suggest you check it out they look incredible!

Andy


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## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does ( New Fish)*

Just read the seventeen pages in Tony's Triasic Hollow and what beautiful Altums and even more beautiful tank . Inspirational reading


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## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does ( New Fish)*

Just a quick update on the tank,got the solenoid for the CO2 and then of course ran out of ferts   Added some more Cardinals but have at least 40 or so waiting to go in, I had kept them out until they grew somewhat or they might end up as Angel food. The tank underneath is now empty of fish so hopefully next few days off it will be turned into a sump and the pipe work completed

  Just click on the pic to get the video working and please add input where things can be improved (such as removing discoloured leaves   ) as this is my first 'planted tank' and hopefully it will be a success. Thanks for your time
   Dave


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## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does ( New Fish)*

Had a problem Tuesday night (Feb 14th) as the FX5 was making a grating noise and no flow what so ever. Emptied the filter and cleaned the sponges and media (despite doing it a few days earlier), put everything back and ....nothing. At this stage a romantic night was well and truly over so again emptied the filter and checked the bottom of it and had to use a screwdriver to prise loose bits of filter media and Java fern from groves and 'holes' in the filter. Put back together and still nothing but that infernal noise.Emptied again and this time I unscrewed the motor unit and sure enough the impeller is blocked with bits of media from the filter so armed with the same screw driver freed the impeller, put everything back together, filled the filter and water started to pour out of the bottom. Again removed the filter and opened the motor unit and saw I disturbed the O ring so fixed that and put everything back together and fired up the filter only to have more flow from a air driven sponge filter plus the noise of a Honda 50 struggling up a hill. It was now 11o' clock so took the blasted filter apart again, off with the motor unit and noticed that I hadn't aligned two bits of plastic together, did that and everything back and hey presto, magic. Filter working perfectly but the kitchen was covered in water, bits of filter media, tools etc so did the honourable thing and left it until the morning thinking I get some early and fix it then. Course I slept in but the tidy up fairies came and sorted everything up though my wife seemed strangely offish that morning   
 Filter now working perfectly and I think I could take one apart and put it back together in minutes but maybe not working perfectly.


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## Ady34

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does ( blasted filters)*

Happy valentines day!!!


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## awtong

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does ( blasted filters)*

I experienced exactly this with a second hand Fx5 once.  My main error was upon going to take it apart the second time I didn't shut off the hose valves and had 450l of back pressure leaking into my living room at 11pm.  The wife was not so impressed go figure!


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## Calzone

*Stupid is as stupid does ( blasted filters)*

Glad am not the only one who just can't help flooding his house!

Take solace - you are not alone....


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## foxfish

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does ( blasted filters)*

Yep, I reckon there are more than a few of us who have had the odd mishap


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## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does ( blasted filters)*



			
				foxfish said:
			
		

> Yep, I reckon there are more than a few of us who have had the odd mishap


Had a second hand five foot aquarium break upstairs and have to admit that caused a slight leak or two


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## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does ( blasted filters)*

Thinking now that the FX5 was playing up for a couple of days before I noticed it as I have BBA on some of the plants but thankfully seems to be dying off most of the plants but not on the Anubias. There are two Anubias plants at the centre back of the tank, one Coffeefolia that had broke the main plant( it measured about eight inches but now is closer to twelve) and the other Anubias I can't remember the species   ,think it's afzelii/congensis but I'm probably miles out roughly fourteen to sixteen inches long, very slow growing compared to the other Anubias species with longer slimmer leaves. Both these plants are covered in BBA but the other Anubias' are fine (probably as they are at the edge of the tank, well away from the light)
 I have taken both plants out of the tank and put them in tank with a strong solution of Easycarbo but wondering is this the best solution? Also think the tank looks better without the Coffeefolia so will give this to another fish keeper but really want to hold on to the 'afzellii'. Wondering would it be better to move the light unit over one half of the tank and moving the all the Anubias to the other side. The Morpho tetras seem to love the Anubias to hide in so want to keep the plants for them. At the moment I have no algae eaters in the tank so hopefully soon will remedy this but some Angels took over cleaning duties (maybe, maybe they want to breed   ) It's embarrassing the state of the Madagascar leaves but shows the Angels at 'cleaning duty'

This was just after the FX5 went and they cleaned the leaf back free of algae nearly completely.Click on the picture to get the video running.The next video is with the plants removed which I think looks more interesting but will have re arrange the wood as it looks odd.

Thanks for looking and even more so if you have advice about the Anubias


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## mrjackdempsey

*Re: Stupid is as stupid does ( blasted filters)*

I had put the Anubias plants into a two foot tank but they melted   , I had never checked that I plugged in the heater so I assume that was the problem. Really annoyed with myself as they just fitted into the tank size wise. I don't mind so much the 'Coffeefolia' as that was a piece that broke of the main plant (plus I had promised it to Joe (bogman)) but the 'Congensis' was a lovely big plant about four years old but there seems to be new growth from the stem so hopefully I can salvage something.


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## mrjackdempsey

Been I while since I posted but still reading posts and thought I share the newest video of my tank and it's inhabitants if anyone likes to see it


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## mrjackdempsey

Having had some scary electric bills recently I've decided to change lights in the house to LED's, switch off appliances rather than put them on standby but still the bills were too high so knocked two thirds of the lights off over the tank and removed one of the external filters (there was three plus the 5' sump) and there is a couple of internal filters that will have to go. But looking into the tank reminded me sometimes money must take a back seat because of the sheer enjoyment my fishy friends bring me like the interaction between some newly acquired kribs and by long standing male Baenschi who although smaller shows attitude is everything!!!!! Maybe I will go back to E.I dosing and CO2 just gotta get a second job to pay for the lights 
Apistogramma baenschi chasing of a pair of kribs - YouTube


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## Palm Tree

mrjackdempsey said:


> Having had some scary electric bills recently I've decided to change lights in the house to LED's, switch off appliances rather than put them on standby but still the bills were too high so knocked two thirds of the lights off over the tank and removed one of the external filters (there was three plus the 5' sump) and there is a couple of internal filters that will have to go. But looking into the tank reminded me sometimes money must take a back seat because of the sheer enjoyment my fishy friends bring me like the interaction between some newly acquired kribs and by long standing male Baenschi who although smaller shows attitude is everything!!!!! Maybe I will go back to E.I dosing and CO2 just gotta get a second job to pay for the lights
> Apistogramma baenschi chasing of a pair of kribs - YouTube


 I haven't read through the whole thread yet, but led would be a bit cheaper. Why don't you use powerheads instead of external filters for flow may I ask ? Also have the heating on the lowest setting possible for your fish, as this would probably be the biggest cost.


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## mrjackdempsey

Palm Tree said:


> I haven't read through the whole thread yet, but led would be a bit cheaper. Why don't you use powerheads instead of external filters for flow may I ask ? Also have the heating on the lowest setting possible for your fish, as this would probably be the biggest cost.


Hi mate and thanks for the reply, regarding powerheads there are two Tunze models one seemingly does 12,000 litres a hour and the smaller smaller one I'm not sure. The external filters originally used to drive homemade CO2 reactors but now are just used as filtration. As regards LED lights the running costs would certainly come down but the initial costs are prohibitive to say the least for a eight foot tank. Was looking at second hand units (Kessil amazon AW 150) but would need four and costs are still too high.
Another quick question if I may is to fix a blunder I made, the point of my previous post was sometimes our fish give us pleasure that makes the cost worthwhile and then show the video to back this up but I made a mess of this and instead of a picture of the video like the post above this one and wondering if I could edit it


		Code:
	

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=WO919A6PhlE


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## Palm Tree

Would you consider DIY Led's? You could pull it off for less than £100 for a dimmable 500w fixture I think. I still think 600w of LED light is major overkill, You'd be better off with multiple smaller wattage Led's.


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## mrjackdempsey

Would 500w of a led light be a overkill? All my T5's are 'only 480 watts' and that's too much but in my ignorance I probably got it wrong! I'm a member of a fish club here in Ireland ( if you're not I would suggest joining one because of the benefits such as plant swaps and fish that are passed on, either fry or unwanted fish plus sometimes we order wild fish ( last lot came from Peru))Some of the lads have made the lights for their marine tanks these way so will chat with them tonight about this. Regards the Kessil lights the '150 w' refers to the MH light they are designed to replace, if this is what the 500w refers to, my apologies !! But I do think you're on to something with DIY led lights I just got to probe deeper
 Cheers 
  Dave


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## jack-rythm

Not really sure about buying fish from that far away?! Also ukaps does plenty of swapping and trading   

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


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## mrjackdempsey

jack-rythm said:


> Not really sure about buying fish from that far away?! Also ukaps does plenty of swapping and trading
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


Hi Jack, swapping and trading is a little awkward  as many UK members would prefer to deal with someone in the same country and I wouldn't blame them as shipping is very costly plus things are easily broken in the post.
Regards fish from far off countries, here in Ireland we do not have the same luxuries regarding fish shops, the nearest to me being over 30 miles away and the good ones well over a hundred miles so as a club it makes more sense doing it this way, you have more choice of unusual wild caught fish such as apistogramma species or even common species like Cardinals at a fraction of the cost they would cost in a shop. Of course there are the shipping costs, VAT and vet bills on top but still considerably easier on the members pockets. It's the same as what the shops do unless they buy from a supplier, you just cutting out on the middle men. Of course they are no guarantees everything will arrive safely and there are usually some losses ( but not very many on the whole) but the shops run the same risks just that they usually cover their losses on the price of the remaining fish.


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