# Forests Underwater by Takashi Amano at Lisbon Oceanarium



## Martin in Holland (17 Mar 2015)

The first video of the already famous 40 meter tank in Lisbon is here to see...enjoy.


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## Sk3lly (17 Mar 2015)

Thank you for sharing.

Amazing!! Hoping to see this tank once established


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Martin in Holland (17 Mar 2015)

I wonder how they got the CO2 distributed into all corners.


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## Martin in Holland (22 Mar 2015)

Another video....


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## Chris Jackson (22 Mar 2015)

Oh my....the maintenance demands!


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## Dantrasy (22 Mar 2015)

out of this world!


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## TOO (22 Mar 2015)

Chris Jackson said:


> Oh my....the maintenance demands!



Next item in the ADA product range: diving suits with scissor gloves and hoover on the back.

Thomas


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## Ady34 (24 Mar 2015)

Wow obviously.....however I would have personally liked to have seen more variation in rock size, a tank of such size could house some lovely big rocks and it would have given a more natural look. Having said that there has clearly been a strong brief to work from and it is going to look epic regardless. 
Imagine the fish stocking options, thousand strong shoals


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## Rahms (24 Mar 2015)

2nd video makes me dizzy. cost of a tripod is nothing compared to a 40m tank (or the ADA substrate to fill it...)

wonder when the fish go in!


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## flygja (25 Mar 2015)

I think the tanks at Sumida Tokyo Tree require about 4-6 hours of maintenance every few days. This one will need to be closed every few days for maintenance... Maybe I'm just a bit jaded with the Amano design, it looks like every other big tank he's done. But geez... fish stocking options will be a dream as Ady pointed out!


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## ian_m (25 Mar 2015)

How do you make a piece of acrylic that big ?


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## parotet (25 Mar 2015)

ian_m said:


> How do you make a piece of acrylic that big ?


Spending a lot of money


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## LondonDragon (26 Mar 2015)

Stunning, looking forward to visiting this one


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## alto (26 Mar 2015)

flygja said:


> it looks like every other big tank he's done


I wonder how much of this is budget & maintenance related re operating budget after the initial setup & knowledge/technical expertise available over the longterm


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## ian_m (27 Mar 2015)

Here is the aquarium homepage and news about the tank. 160m3 of water...
http://www.oceanario.pt/cms/1397/?news=1789

Assuming x10 flow for this tank that is 1600m3 per hour. My JBL consumes 23W doing 1500l/hr (1.5m3/hr). Thus roughly power needed is 23 x 1600/1,5 -> 23,000W and at electricity @ 15p/KWhr -> 23 * 0.15 * 24 * 365 -> £30,222 per year in electricity. Obviously bigger pumps will be more efficient and I expect they get cheaper electricity....

I have a 200W heater in 180l tank, they need 200 x 160,000/180 -> 170KW !!!!


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## Martin in Holland (27 Mar 2015)

I don't think I will get one of those soon (read "NEVER EVER).


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## parotet (27 Mar 2015)

ian_m said:


> Assuming x10 flow for this tank that is 1600m3 per hour. My JBL consumes 23W doing 1500l/hr (1.5m3/hr). Thus roughly power needed is 23 x 1600/1,5 -> 23,000W and at electricity @ 15p/KWhr -> 23 * 0.15 * 24 * 365 -> £30,222 per year in electricity. Obviously bigger pumps will be more efficient and I expect they get cheaper electricity....
> I have a 200W heater in 180l tank, they need 200 x 160,000/180 -> 170KW !!!!


I do not intend to criticise in any way this beautiful project that can be very useful to raise awareness about nature conservation... but it makes me think why they still call it Natural Aquarium. 

Jordi


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## parotet (27 Mar 2015)

Sorry Nature Aquarium, not Natural Aquarium...


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## Mr. Teapot (27 Mar 2015)

I wrote in a different thread about how I thought, on first impressions, this was a bit of a wasted opportunity to tell a bigger story. On the surface it looks very much like an ADA Japanese tank garden but on a vast scale. Great… for the planted tank enthusiast but perhaps lost on 99% of a public aquarium’s viewers. 

I would have loved it more (and I do love it) if there was a narrative about a river traveling along to the sea. Starting with massive moss covered rocks, flooded uplands and onwards to slower sunken trees etc, etc. Or another story - perhaps plants from South America onto Asia ending up in Africa? 

Big tank but where’s the bigger picture? What does it say other than ‘nice big tank'?


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## Martin in Holland (28 Mar 2015)

For years we could only see large marine aquariums, with or without a story, now we can finally see that a a freshwater tank can give us more than rocks, bog wood, sunken ships and other those kind of ornaments and large (often to large) colorful fish to make a tank look like something you would like to take home (only a little piece though  ). I think this will open the market, or better yet, the few of fish tank lovers, to a whole new level.
It may not be a natural tank, but for sure it's a nature tank.


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## parotet (28 Mar 2015)

Martin in China said:


> I think this will open the market, or better yet, the few of fish tank lovers, to a whole new level.


Totally agree. This is the best showcase I can imagine for ADA in Europe. I'm not sure if it is going to be so successful as the Sumida Aquarium (in Asia ADA is nearly a religion), but this would help for sure to get more established. (If this makes the prices drop by a 50% it is ok with me  )

Jordi


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## Colinlp (28 Mar 2015)

parotet said:


> but this would help for sure to get more established


It would if there was a few smaller tanks as well that showed people what could realistically be done in their own homes


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## LondonDragon (28 Mar 2015)

This scape has been called "temporary" and looks like it will probably be there 12-18 months, I am sure they built the space not just for this and will be changing it with another scape in the future with maybe a different theme, looks foward to an invitation for the UKAPS crew to help out 

The hobby in Portugal is quite large already, as you can see by the number of Portuguese journals we have in this forum, the main aquascaping forum in Portugal has around 70,000 members, they used to host their annual party at the Lisbon Oceanarium where all the top aquascapers in the world have done live demos and talks (Takashi Amano, Oliver Knott, Tom Barr, the list goes on ...)

The Oceanarium is marine dominated and this is a huge step, I am in Lisbon at least once a year so look forward to visiting the Oceanarium more often now


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## limz_777 (28 Mar 2015)

parotet said:


> Totally agree. This is the best showcase I can imagine for ADA in Europe. I'm not sure if it is going to be so successful as the Sumida Aquarium (in Asia ADA is nearly a religion), but this would help for sure to get more established. (If this makes the prices drop by a 50% it is ok with me  )
> 
> Jordi



religion in japan only i think , price of ada goods is quite premium and marked up high , only i seen handful of people buy tanks , lights  , most will only use their soil .


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## parotet (28 Mar 2015)

limz_777 said:


> religion in japan only i think , price of ada goods is quite premium and marked up high , only i seen handful of people buy tanks , lights  , most will only use their soil .


Mmmm, not sure. The ADA authorized retailer in my town (he was in Lisbon helping during the setup, you can spot him several times in the videos) has to compete with 4-5 LFS more and with at least 5 more authorized retailers at the National level. But he manages to run his business (shop and online) mainly selling ADA stuff. Honestly I have only seen a few times folks buying expensive stuff (I mean, beyond AquaSoil) but note that if he manages to sell a few complete ADA setups each month it probably means more benefits than the rest of the LFS will earn in one month selling standard material. And of course the shop (he recently moved to a larger shop) is simply a wonderful place... I don't believe in miracles but I recognize it is easy to get hypnotized when you see a good collection (+12) of planted tanks from ADA. If you are a good customer you receive high format wonderful ADA booklets that makes the "shopping experience" (that's how the call it now, isn't it?) more hypnotizing, you even bring your stuff home in an cool ADA bag like in a boutique.... I reminds me very much the Apple/Nespresso approach, you know? Not selling just computers/coffee, but THE computer /coffee YOU never knew you needed.

Call it business experience, call it religion or however you want. The fact is that it works really well, at least here in Spain

Jordi


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## parotet (28 Mar 2015)

LondonDragon said:


> This scape has been called "temporary" and looks like it will probably be there 12-18 months


OMG! all this for just a 18 months?


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## Martin in Holland (28 Mar 2015)

LondonDragon said:


> looks foward to an invitation for the UKAPS crew to help out


I'm in.


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## parotet (28 Mar 2015)

Martin in China said:


> I'm in.


Me too


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## limz_777 (29 Mar 2015)

forgot to mention its based for asian market ,not sure about europe , guess it all depends on your budget , if you have spare cash to spend , why not . but i still think ada should revised their pricing outside japan


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## Martin in Holland (30 Mar 2015)

limz_777 said:


> ada should revised their pricing


I agree, their prices are to high, but so is the quality....still doesn't mean you should pay more for ADA than, let's say, Eheim products. I see many tanks here using ADA substrate, copy lily pipes, copy lights and Eheim canister filters...it's OK, let ADA come up with new ideas, China will copy them LOL


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## limz_777 (30 Mar 2015)

Got some info on the set-up. do hope they do something about that three grey piping ,remind me of harley davison exhaust pipes.

(translated ) The lighting system 70 is composed of metal halide lamps of 800 W each , mixing color temperature 6,000 ° K and 10,000 ° K . Four large filters will be used, provided with mechanical and biological media. The flow and the power of the bombs have not been revealed. Further details on the other aquarium facilities as CO2 systems , fertilization and maintenance are still unknown to the public , but gradually be revealed .


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## viktorlantos (30 Mar 2015)

Great podcast from Scape Fu on behind the scenes from Jurijs who worked on this tank too. 
Worth to listen as many awesome facts and stories are there which is not published yet.

http://www.scapefu.com/takashi-amano-underwater-forests/


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## viktorlantos (30 Mar 2015)

Filtration


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## limz_777 (30 Mar 2015)

good point by Jurijs on the field of perspective , at first i was quite disappointed with the scape , no details , three exhaust pipes all around ,sloped stem plants looks like living wall concept , reviewing the videos , this tank is not meant to be view closed up like the video but standing  maybe somewhere at the centre further back to view it as a whole , anyway its still too early to say , have to wait till tank open to public and fully grown in


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## Rodrigo Isaac (1 May 2015)

The World’s Largest NA Project: Story - Part 3, It is available in the channel of Aqua Design Amano on youtube. 

I decided to move to text the plants used in the assembly, I leave here the list:
Bolbitis heudelotii
Microsorium pteropus "Narrow leaf"
Microsorium pteropus
Anubias barteri var. nana
Anubias barteri var. barteri
Anubias barteri "butterfly"
Fontinalis antipyretica
Hygrophila pinnatifida
Nymphaea "Tiger lotus red"
Nymphaea "Tiger lotus green"
Vallisneria americana nana
Vallisneria spiralis "Leopard"
Blyxa aubertii
Blyxa sp (from Kimberley)
Echinodorus angustifolia
Echinodorus lantifolius
Echinodorus "Red rubin"
Crinum calamistratum
Crinum natans
Sagittaria subulata
Cryptocoryne wendtii "hybrid"
Cryptocoryne petchii
Cryptocoryne ciliata
Echinodorus tenelus
Hydroctyle Martima Honda Australia
Alternanthera cardinalis
Alternanthera reineckii "Lilacina"
Alternanthera reineckii
Hygrophila salicifolia
Hygrophila corymbosa "Red"
Hygrophila corymbosa var stricta
Hygrophila salicifolia "Long form"
Hygrophila angustifolia
Hygrophila corymbosa
Hygrophila corymbosa var. siamenais
Hygrophila "Pantanal wavy"
Hygrophila "Araguaia sharp leaf"
Hygrophila corymbosa "Cherry leaf"
Echinodorus "Red Flame"
Echinodorus "Rubin x narrow leaf"
Echinodorus cordifolius harbioh red
Echinodorus amazonicus
Echinodorus "Rose"
Echinodorus "Ozelot" green
Echinodorus schlueteri
Echinodorus "Res rubin"
Echinodorus "Devil's Eye"
Echinodorus uruguayensis
Echinodorus argentinensis
Hygrophila polysperma
Ludwigia glandulosa
Ludwigia repens
Rotala ceylon
Rotala sp "Fukkensyou"


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## brancaman (11 May 2015)

Been there with a small group (no more than 40   ) and now i can share with you the pictures. Hope this push you to come visit Lisboa


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## Chris Jackson (11 May 2015)

Now that is class! Quite stunning...how many hours of maintenance a night I wonder?


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## Martin in Holland (12 May 2015)

Chris Jackson said:


> Now that is class! Quite stunning...how many hours of maintenance a night I wonder?


I guess the whole night. I'm just happy to see some signs of GSA and BBA on the Anubius in that last picture


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## Edvet (12 May 2015)

Moar mininos, he needs moar minions...................


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## LondonDragon (17 May 2015)

brancaman said:


> Been there with a small group (no more than 40  ) and now i can share with you the pictures. Hope this push you to come visit Lisboa


Thanks for sharing the photos  whats your views about the project?

I will be visiting on July 15th  all booked now!


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## brancaman (17 May 2015)

Olá Paulo, what can i say about it  totally insane the size of it, it's everybody dream to have at your living room and to a nightmare to keep clean and the bills...! 
For me it could get bigger fish on it, not monsters for sure  but maybe more of the size of scalare for sure.

 Don't forget that the ticket to see amano's work also gives you the opportunity to see the whole oceanario as well so one advice based on my experience  take more than 8 gb  and full charged batteries!


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## LondonDragon (17 May 2015)

brancaman said:


> Don't forget that the ticket to see amano's work also gives you the opportunity to see the whole oceanario as well so one advice based on my experience  take more than 8 gb  and full charged batteries!


Many thanks, its been a few years since I last visited Ocenario so will make a whole day of it, and I do have a 32Gb card and couple of batteries  Cheers


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## brancaman (17 May 2015)

If you don't mind i'll show you few pictures of the oceanario




 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

and don't forget to smile at him 



 

more info here: http://www.oceanario.pt/


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## Vinkenoog1977 (17 May 2015)

Awesome pics! But what the heck is this thing??? Looks like a floating rock.


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## brancaman (17 May 2015)

Hehe, it´s the most strange and  the biggest inside central tank, it's called peixe-lua or  Mola-Mola


> Name: Sunfish
> Scientific Name: _Mola mola_ (Linnaeus, 1758)
> Family: _Molidae_
> Group: Bony fish
> ...


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## Vinkenoog1977 (17 May 2015)

Cheers for that! What an amazing looking creature, especially from that angle.


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## Chris Jackson (21 May 2015)

I am so hugely impressed now...TA I salute you as the grand master! 
The plant health appears perfect, I can't see any cut stems or signs of maintenance and the scape itself is growing on me more and more. I really like how he's used large open areas to create an even greater sense of scale.... Now if I could just do that in my 60H.....


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## Edvet (22 May 2015)

Looks very clean and healthy, doesn't look lik a a lot of flow.(there probably is, but isn't very obvious). To me it doesn't look like high light, especialy on the lower tiers it looks like most plants are low light tolerant, but video can be deceiving. The large empty spaces may give a lighter impression also. Can anyone indentify the large (high) plants at 1.36?


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## Chris Jackson (22 May 2015)

In one of the Sumida videos Amano mentions that he's using white sand to reflect light back around the tank to help compensate for the light penetration at depth difficulties. Obviously working here..


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## sciencefiction (22 May 2015)

Amazing tank. Truly enjoyable to watch.
 My fish happened to see the video of it while I was watching and are now all cross with me for not providing them with adequate space...


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## Martin in Holland (25 May 2015)

I wonder how many times you need to pump brightly K (or whatever) per day.....must get muscled fingers...lol


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## tmiravent (5 Jul 2015)

Hi,
a few more pics form the exposition...


 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 

cheers,


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## Martin in Holland (6 Jul 2015)

Unreal....rolling hills in a fish tank. Nice pictures, thanks for sharing.


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## LondonDragon (23 Jul 2015)

Hey guys,

Quick video from my last visit, this was edited by my hopefully future brother in law  on my visit last week. I make an appearance in the video somewhere lol was shot and edited by him, hope you enjoy, didn't want to make this too long, just enough to open an appetite and make you guys visit to see for yourselves 



Watch in HD.

Cheers
Paulo


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## tmiravent (23 Jul 2015)

Hi London Dragon,
nice video!
What your impression on the tank (and plants)?
Cheers


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## viktorlantos (23 Jul 2015)

OMG Paulo this one was amazing. Thank you for sharing it. Great work on the video gives back a little on the experiment.


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## Nelson (23 Jul 2015)

Who was that ugly bloke at 1.53 ? .


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## LondonDragon (23 Jul 2015)

tmiravent said:


> What your impression on the tank (and plants)?


I was lost for words when I walked into the room, the size of the tank just hits you, when most of us are used to seeing tanks no larger than 120cm or less in real life. It is quite an achievement to create such an amazing aquascape, it flows pretty well across the whole tank and I do prefer the shoals of small fish in the tank.

The plants are just amazing, the guys there are doing a great job in trimming the plants and keeping the tank looking so healthy, its great to see the plants growing to these sizes and see their full potential that we never really get to experience in our minuscule aquariums, if you can visit I really recommend it.

It was a lot to take in and I could easily spend hours there just sitting down and admiring the tank, the background music is also awesome, sample on the video posted (hope not to get in trouble ) 

Was just glad I was there to see it in person when it has already grown in, beautiful.


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## LondonDragon (23 Jul 2015)

nelson said:


> Who was that ugly bloke at 1.53 ? .


You just jealous  I will have to charge them a fee for the acting!


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## Pedro Oliveira (23 Jul 2015)

Very nice video 

Enviado do meu GT-I9100 através de Tapatalk


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## Greenfinger2 (24 Jul 2015)

Just stunning nice video too


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## ajm83 (24 Jul 2015)

Really nice. Quite surprising to see how much surface rippling they have.


LondonDragon said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Quick video from my last visit, this was edited by my hopefully future brother in law  on my visit last week. I make an appearance in the video somewhere lol was shot and edited by him, hope you enjoy, didn't want to make this too long, just enough to open an appetite and make you guys visit to see for yourselves
> 
> ...




Really nice. Quite surprising as well to see how much surface rippling they have.


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## Tim Harrison (24 Jul 2015)

Amazing video...thanks for sharing Paulo.


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## LondonDragon (29 Jul 2015)

Some photos from the visit on the 15th July 2015, the camera was not great, best I could do


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## LondonDragon (29 Jul 2015)

Part 2:



 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Many thanks and enjoy 

Cheers
Paulo


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## Edvet (30 Jul 2015)

As good as it looks, it's starting to feel more and more like a nicely kept garden. I would love to see the plants grow more to their full potential. the wayt they grow in nature, not manicured into perfection like Bonsai. But hey, that's just me


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## parotet (30 Jul 2015)

Edvet said:


> As good as it looks, it's starting to feel more and more like a nicely kept garden. I would love to see the plants grow more to their full potential. the wayt they grow in nature, not manicured into perfection like Bonsai. But hey, that's just me


Me too... I don't like this in small tanks but in monster tanks it looks worse, at least IMO. Actually there is a big difference between the manicured parts (trimmed shaping the plants, unnatural transition with colors, etc.) and the ones looking wilder (ferns, stems plants not perfectly trimmed, etc.). Anyway it's awesome... excellent!

Jordi


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## Chris Jackson (30 Jul 2015)

Edvet said:


> As good as it looks, it's starting to feel more and more like a nicely kept garden. I would love to see the plants grow more to their full potential. the wayt they grow in nature, not manicured into perfection like Bonsai. But hey, that's just me



Yes, mighty impressive but I agree...loking like topiary in places. I'd really like to see Amano apply his talents to a pure 40m Biotope


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## Alexander Belchenko (30 Jul 2015)

Guys, is there any available information on technical side of this huge tank? What light do they use? Probably a lot of CO2? Earlier there was link to video about filtration system. Anything else? Stadard ADA ferts (in packs by 100 liters maybe)? Water changes? Do you think 30% per week, tens of tons of water maybe. I'm not kidding, I simply can't imagine the technical side of such system.


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## Edvet (30 Jul 2015)

It seems they are closed for maintenance every now and then. One diver will be busy with the "glass"cleaning for half a day at least.


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## LondonDragon (30 Jul 2015)

I think you guys are missing the point, there are large scale freshwater biotopes in many public aquariums around the world. This is meant to be a "Nature Aquarium" to mimic what we do in the aquascaping world, look at the Sumida aquariums, same thing.

I am sure once this temporary exhibition goes, then they will use the space for a biotope of some sort, but maybe I am wrong but that was not the intention here!


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## viktorlantos (30 Jul 2015)

Great photos Paulo 

It is an insane work both to build an maintain. No room for errors. 

Have you seen any Amano shrimp walking around in the room? 
From thousands of shrimps there should be some


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## flygja (31 Jul 2015)

LondonDragon said:


> I think you guys are missing the point, there are large scale freshwater biotopes in many public aquariums around the world.


I agree with this. For large public aquariums like these, I think its easier to create/maintain a biotope compared to a NA scape. I haven't personally done a biotope, but my impression is that biotopes are hard for a hobbyist because of the availability of critters and plants. Large public aquariums can get any fish they want, any plants they want and recreate any water condition on a large scale, so they won't run into availability issues like hobbyists. 



Alexander Belchenko said:


> Guys, is there any available information on technical side of this huge tank? What light do they use? Probably a lot of CO2? Earlier there was link to video about filtration system. Anything else? Stadard ADA ferts (in packs by 100 liters maybe)? Water changes? Do you think 30% per week, tens of tons of water maybe. I'm not kidding, I simply can't imagine the technical side of such system.


Some information is available in Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine: 

8550 litres of Aquasoil
20 tons of volcanic stones
78 large driftwood pieces
46 types of aquatic plants
10,000 fish from 40 different species

I'd also like to know how much of CO2 they have to pump in. Probably have a CO2 production facility in the room next door! Water changes shouldn't be a problem, these guys are probably experts at recycling water.


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## Iain Sutherland (31 Jul 2015)

Great video and images Paulo, still gutted i was there 2 days early but do plan to make it back.  Did they give any indication of how long it will be running for?

It sure is an achievement and my hat comes off to ADA for setting up and the Lisbon team for maintaining.

I did hear a rumour of a full reef crest tank as the next project........?


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## sciencefiction (31 Jul 2015)

I'd love to see close behaviour of fish in there. They must feel great and like in nature.
Also, I think that anubias is struggling a bit


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## Mark Green (31 Jul 2015)

Absolutely fantastic, the man is a genius.

Paulo some great photos Thx for posting.
￼


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## viktorlantos (1 Aug 2015)

They had problems at the beginning and some of the plants adopted hardly. Some of them melted too. And the opening ceremony was too close.

In Niigata and Japan they have soft water. So Niigata and Tokyo/Sumida is kind of the same condition. No need special care.
This was the first time when ADA built a monster outside of Japan. And the water parameter was quite different in Portugal. They used Ion-Exchange-Resin to filter the water. And the plants had really hard times to work with this condition.

I do not know  what was the solution, but i know about it as they also sent an email to me about the issue.

Wonderful work what the team built really and how the maintenance team pushed the limits to stand up to the highest standards.
I am not 100% happy with some of the trimmings, but insane amount of work. Thanks to the Lisbon team to came up with this idea first time in the EU.


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## Tim Harrison (1 Aug 2015)

It is an insane amount of work, skilled work at that...I can't even begin to guess how many hours a week...


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## Dantrasy (2 Aug 2015)

I wonder where all the trimmings end up?


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## Edvet (2 Aug 2015)

Perhaps it just funtions as a secret WabiKusa factory for ADA......


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## flygja (10 Aug 2015)

Edvet said:


> Perhaps it just funtions as a secret WabiKusa factory for ADA......


Hahah! Why not? Then they'll have Euro-produced ADA wabi kusa plants!


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## LondonDragon (10 Aug 2015)

You guys need to visit  there is a lot more to do in Lisbon also than just look at the tank


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## parotet (30 Dec 2015)

Hi all

I was there today... No words for describing such a wonderful masterpiece: perfect scale and proportion, no sign of algae, super healthy plants perfectly trimmed, clean sand. I hardly manage to keep my 25 liters tank in such conditions. Huge design and maintenance effort!

I post some picture, just for showing that you definitely have to go to Lisbon (wonderful city and people!)

Jordi


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## Alexander Belchenko (30 Dec 2015)

Envy!


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## Chris Jackson (30 Dec 2015)

That is breathtaking....but could it just possibly be too perfect?


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## foxfish (30 Dec 2015)

Lost for words!


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## Martin in Holland (31 Dec 2015)

The Nina Hagen song pops into my mind...."Ich will ein fish sein" (I want to be a fish).....


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## LondonDragon (1 Jan 2016)

If its still there next summer, I will for sure visit again  sure was the aquascaping highlight of 2015, and not because I am biased Lisbon is a great place to visit.


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## rebel (2 Jan 2016)

You guys are lucky. Us from Australia are full of envy.


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## parotet (2 Jan 2016)

LondonDragon said:


> If its still there next summer, I will for sure visit again  sure was the aquascaping highlight of 2015, and not because I am biased Lisbon is a great place to visit.


It is... Just back from 6 wonderful days there. Don't miss the Estufa Fria (shade with tropical plants), the Botanical Garden, the LX Factory and the Berardez Art Collection. And of course get lost anywhere. It is a great place to go and do nothing special but living there for a few days. Portuguese food is wonderful and people too.

Jordi


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## darren636 (2 Jan 2016)

Its incredible 
And quite insane.


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## xim (27 Feb 2016)

I had wondered if the smooth shape of those bushes of Rotala could really occur in nature. 
Now I've got the answer. This picture is a part of a presentation of the University of Florida on 
"Efficacy of Aquatic Herbicides on Rotala (Rotala rotundifolia)". 

(https://conference.ifas.ufl.edu/aw1...ions/2 Wed 7 215 Carl Della Torre_UPDATED.pdf)


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## LondonDragon (8 Mar 2016)

Click the google translate button, but lovely photos also:

http://peha68.pl/forest-underwater-by-takashi-amano/


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## Greenfinger2 (8 Mar 2016)

Simply Stunning scaping by the master 

Thank you for sharing Paulo


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## LondonDragon (10 Mar 2016)

Greenfinger2 said:


> Thank you for sharing Paulo


Looking forward to seeing it again in July  trip to Portugal?


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## Nelson (10 Mar 2016)

LondonDragon said:


> Looking forward to seeing it again in July  trip to Portugal?


You paying ? .


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## LondonDragon (10 Mar 2016)

Nelson said:


> You paying ? .


yes, the oceanarium ticket for you for sure!


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## Tim Harrison (10 Mar 2016)

Simply stunning, thanks for sharing Paulo...was wondering were to go on holiday, it seems the answer was staring me in the face all the time


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## parotet (11 Mar 2016)

Troi said:


> was wondering were to go on holiday, it seems the answer was staring me in the face all the time


Don't doubt it. It's a wonderful city to spare a week doing nothing but wandering around. 

Jordi


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## Pedro Rosa (13 Jun 2016)

Hi guys,

I posted on my YT Channel this video a few days ago. This is "Florestas Submersas" seen from backstage, mainly from above.
Enjoy!


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## Nelson (13 Jun 2016)

Wow .


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## Chris Jackson (13 Jun 2016)

I'm thinking wow cubed! That is some testament as to how well ADA understand the needs of aquatic plants.

Still Reassuring to see that at least one or two leaves aren't perfect...

Any more technical details to be had, such as how co2 is added, ferts, maintenance regime, etc. ?


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## rebel (14 Jun 2016)

Great last project I reckon!


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## Pedro Rosa (14 Jun 2016)

Chris Jackson said:


> I'm thinking wow cubed! That is some testament as to how well ADA understand the needs of aquatic plants.
> Still Reassuring to see that at least one or two leaves aren't perfect...
> Any more technical details to be had, such as how co2 is added, ferts, maintenance regime, etc. ?



I might know a thing or two about ferts, etc, but nothing very special or "official". 
Maintenance is daily and for about 6 hours (or something like that). Every day they clean glasses, sand and cut some plants. They obviously dive inside 
Easy stuff 

Pedro.


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## tmiravent (14 Jun 2016)

shame on you, 8 months to share with us...

Enviado do meu B1-750 através de Tapatalk


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## tmiravent (14 Jun 2016)

kidding, amazing video!
nice poetry!


Enviado do meu B1-750 através de Tapatalk


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## Chris Jackson (14 Jun 2016)

Oh yes and great choice of music!


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## Pedro Rosa (14 Jun 2016)

tmiravent said:


> shame on you, 8 months to share with us...
> Enviado do meu B1-750 através de Tapatalk



Yes... it's a shame but better now then never


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (15 Jun 2016)

Hi guys,

I can't wait to be this summer (August) to visit this when I will be in Lisbon.

cheers


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## zozo (17 Jun 2016)

They must have one hell of a fire extinguisher.. Bazir is the only word i can find.. Unfortunately i will never see it for real..  Tanks for sharing..


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## LondonDragon (17 Jun 2016)

zanguli-ya-zamba said:


> I can't wait to be this summer (August) to visit this when I will be in Lisbon.


Will be there a little sooner, second visit in mid July


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## rebel (18 Jun 2016)

How do they manage the co2 injection?


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## zozo (18 Jun 2016)

rebel said:


> How do they manage the co2 injection?



Jurijs explaines in the podcast, they use 5 feet large industrial bottles.. They use venturi effect to dissolve the Co2 (Like a gassoline carburator). In the venturi the water pressure builds up in this venturi the co2 is injected, behind the venture the pressure drops and in this pressure drop the expanding water makes the co2 gets sucked in and very effectively disolved.  The rest is computerized, so i guess they use Ph controler to get to the correct level..

Kinda works the same as those powerheads using a venturi to suck in air and create a stream of misty water with tiny air bubbles.. I guess


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## Chris Jackson (19 Jun 2016)

zozo said:


> Jurijs explaines in the podcast, they use 5 feet large industrial bottles.. They use venturi effect to dissolve the Co2 (Like a gassoline carburator). In the venturi the water pressure builds up in this venturi the co2 is injected, behind the venture the pressure drops and in this pressure drop the expanding water makes the co2 gets sucked in and very effectively disolved.  The rest is computerized, so i guess they use Ph controler to get to the correct level..
> 
> Kinda works the same as those powerheads using a venturi to suck in air and create a stream of misty water with tiny air bubbles.. I guess



Something like this I suspect http://www.centec-systems.co.uk/carbonation_gas_injection.html, a bit much for home use....


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## zozo (26 Jun 2016)

Chris Jackson said:


> Something like this I suspect http://www.centec-systems.co.uk/carbonation_gas_injection.html, a bit much for home use....


Yes it would be awsome to see a complete tour of this project with all technics involved..  Like a how it's made video..


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## Alexander Belchenko (30 Jun 2016)

Just found this, maybe it will be interesting https://issuu.com/adaukraine_baltic/docs/92_notes_aj244


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## LondonDragon (20 Jul 2016)

Hi everyone,

Last Thursday the 14th July there was a meet up with a few aquascapers from around Europe at the Lisbon Oceanarium, I was lucky enough to be in Lisbon on that day and attended the event, it was a great way to meet some of the people I have chatted online for sometime, Filipe Oliveira in particular that goes back almost a decade and we had never met, Filipe also managed to organize a backstage tour for us on the day and it was a stunning experience.

Here a video of the backstage tour, we also visited the machine room, will post some photos later of that:







Videos by Filipe Oliveira, did make some myself but his are better quality 

You can find lots of photos and videos on the following event link:

https://www.facebook.com/events/1147052558696086/

Enjoy


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## LondonDragon (20 Jul 2016)

Some photos taken of the equipment room, as you walk in you see this going down to machine room:



 

Down the stairs you see one of the filtration sumps, this one for one of the smaller sides of the aquarium.



 

The full sump, this is one of 5 sumps that filter and provide flow for the aquarium.



 

The huge motors pumping the water back into the aquarium, there is one per sump, not sure on how many lph each runs at, but each sump has something that measures the water depth which in turn regulates the water flow of each motor.



 

 

Some more photos of the sumps, they contain sponge, carbon and filtration media.



 

Long corridor of sumps behind the largest face of the tank.



 

Background light.



 

There are two sets of CO2 venturi, one with 3 valves and one with 2, they feed the return pipe of each sump and have CO2 bottles stored somewhere else.



 

There are also various UV filters in the tank.

Lighting above the tank see photos below, not sure on wattage of each unit, and they were not all turned on.



 

 

 

Did not find out if the lights have a sequence or how long they are on daily, but the tank is on display to the public from 10am-8pm therefore for those hours at least they need to be on.

There is also daily maintenance performed, cleaning of the glass and pruning. Would be nice to find out about water changes, but did not get that information either, its a little overwhelming when you are there and you forget to ask questions.

Hope you enjoyed the photos, it was an amazing experience which I enjoyed every minute off.

Cheers


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## rebel (21 Jul 2016)

Wow those Venturi units are something!


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## Alexander Belchenko (21 Jul 2016)

That UV unit at first looked like RO unit. So many pipes. I guess they use those thin pipes to feed UV with small and slow flow of water?


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## zozo (21 Jul 2016)

Thanks for those pics, always nice to be able to have a glans of whats behind all of it..  Indeed water changes, you would like to think it needs 25% a week too, like what is always and all over advised. I rather think  they have laboratory tests to find out when and if it's time for that. What baffles me the most is that this is only temporary.. What a waste..


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## LondonDragon (21 Jul 2016)

zozo said:


> What baffles me the most is that this is only temporary.. What a waste..


It was always going to be a 3 year project, but speaking to someone from management they claim if it still popular it will be extended further.

This was more of an experiment for the Oceanarium, usually an aquarium as a main attraction, a creature that attracts the crowds and this was new for them as it does not have any creatures to attract the crowds, so it was a little of the unknown for them and they were not even sure it would attract any crowd, during the conversation he mentioned someone mentioned there were 50k people interested in aquascaping/aquariums in Portugal, but they would need those 50k to visit every month  
But just over a year later and almost a million visits it has turned out to be more popular than expected, so as long its attracting the crowds I am sure they will keep it going for at least another year or two.

What they seem to be missing out is offering tickets just to visit the temporary exhibition, they only sell the tickets as an addon to the main marine section, which for me I am not interested in seeing again but still have to pay for it.


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## zozo (21 Jul 2016)

This is such an unique concept i'm rather under the impression it can serve as a main attraction as well. In a way i can't imagine it loosing popularity.. If it does it probaly is as you say, they steering towards that themselfs with that ticket policy. Would be such a shame  to see this torn apart again.. It also would be disrespectful to Mr Amano's life phylosophy, bringing people closer to nature show them the beauty and stand still at it for once and understand it worth to preserve it.. With tearing this down this will slowly slip away again into oblivion. They underestimate the importancy of all this with classifying it as temporary.. Like it's unimportant or just not important enough.


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## LondonDragon (21 Jul 2016)

zozo said:


> It also would be disrespectful to Mr Amano's life phylosophy, bringing people closer to nature show them the beauty and stand still at it for once and understand it worth to preserve it.. With tearing this down this will slowly slip away again into oblivion. They underestimate the importancy of all this with classifying it as temporary..


I don't agree with this talk about being disrespectful, it was never intended to be permanent in the first place, a business needs to make money, and if an exhibition is not making money then you need to bring something else in to generate that capital again. Just the way it goes, if people want to keep it going then everyone needs to visit simple  book your tickets!


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## zozo (21 Jul 2016)

From a business standpoint of view you're absolutely correct..  I know how business works, like having less profit the next year is always considered loss and a reason to fire employees without remorse.. Tho it is a falsety considering less profit as a loss, but that;s the way it is.. That's business.. 

Even tho it probably is completely out of my reach to ever visit it, it still feel sorry with the thought that it one day will vanish into peoples memory only. It deserves much more respect.. All i'm saying..


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## rebel (21 Jul 2016)

I doubt I will be lucky enough to visit but I may get a chance next year in June. I might be in Spain for a visit so not too far I guess....


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## LondonDragon (21 Jul 2016)

Alexander Belchenko said:


> That UV unit at first looked like RO unit. So many pipes. I guess they use those thin pipes to feed UV with small and slow flow of water?


Forgot to reply to this one, was told they were UV, but I see where you coming from due to the pipes to the middle unit.



rebel said:


> I doubt I will be lucky enough to visit but I may get a chance next year in June. I might be in Spain for a visit so not too far I guess....


Depends where in Spain  I visit family in Lisbon every summer so while its there I plan to visit every year.


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## Alexander Belchenko (21 Jul 2016)

LondonDragon said:


> Forgot to reply to this one, was told they were UV, but I see where you coming from due to the pipes to the middle unit.



The middle unit probably is some sort of electric equipment to feed big UV lamps with power. Looking at it longer I think I mistakenly decided those pipes but they're actually wires. Oh my, all that equipement is overwhelming.
CO2 venturi? Still don't get how it supposed to work. OMG


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## zozo (21 Jul 2016)

Alexander Belchenko said:


> CO2 venturi? Still don't get how it supposed to work. OMG



It's a natural proces, there is a bottleneck created in the pipe towards the filter outlet.. Then because of the pipe diameter getting smaller there is a pressure buildup.. In this narrow bottleneck is the co2 injected, probably with a difuser, behind the bottleneck the pipes diamter gets wider again, this creates a sudden presure drop.. This pressure drop helps the already shredded co2 getting sucked into the water mass even more.. Seeing the picture it aint a complete professional diffuser installation. What is shown is a simple co2 regulator connected via cupper pipes to 3 flow meters, each flow meter runs probably to it's own difuser behind one of the 3 sumps (filter outlets).

That venture works in principle the same as those powerheads where you can connect an tube and then they create a stream of tiny airbubbles.. This is also a ventury working with presure drop to get the air into the stream. 

It's awfully simple but very effective.. Seeing the pumps they use, there is quite some pressure buildup possible.. So in small scale aquariums it would not work as sufficient because the lak of pressure.


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## zozo (21 Jul 2016)

Maybe this will help to understand beter, it is awfully simple..  Only the picture of the actual ventury is unfortunately missing.. But it must in diagram be something like this.


 

A gasoline carburator does exactly the same to diffuse the gasoline into the air more sufficiently before it's sucked into the combustion chamber. It's a very old and effective principle.


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## webworm (22 Jul 2016)

I doubt that you'll see any compression of water in a typical industrial water plant. At 40MPa (equivalent of 40KM depth) you get 1.8% compression.
For more details see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Properties_of_water#Compressibility


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## zozo (22 Jul 2016)

webworm said:


> I doubt that you'll see any compression of water in a typical industrial water plant. At 40MPa (equivalent of 40KM depth) you get 1.8% compression.
> For more details see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Properties_of_water#Compressibility



It's anyway the presure drop and probablt the vortex created behind the venturi making the co2 disperse even more into the water.. I only tried to simplify it a bit to explain the process..  I don't think explaining it with every factual detail and a lot of mathematical formulas and physical propperties of mediums makes it any easier to understand for people who don't know the concept in the first place. Sorry for not beeing 100% correct and beeing misguiding in the explaination of pressure buildup vs pressure release. Tho even if the compresson is 1/100000 it still is..


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## dw1305 (22 Jul 2016)

Hi all,





zozo said:


> It's anyway the pressure drop and probably the vortex created behind the venturi making the co2 disperse even more into the water.


I think it is just the flow speed, the faster flow speed through the restricted section causes a drop in pressure (energy is conserved, kinetic energy has increased, so the pressure must fall) and the CO2 is sucked in to the flowing water. If the water has to flow any distance (before the tank) the CO2 will fully dissolve (because it has a high solubility in water).

cheers Darrel


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## zozo (22 Jul 2016)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,I think it is just the flow speed, the faster flow speed through the restricted section causes a drop in pressure (energy is conserved, kinetic energy has increased, so the pressure must fall) and the CO2 is sucked in to the flowing water. If the water has to flow any distance (before the tank) the CO2 will fully dissolve (because it has a high solubility in water).
> 
> cheers Darrel



Could be, i was just anticipating with an educated guess on the explaination given to Jurijs at the build of this project. And he again quoted it at a podcast what was explained to him. How ever it realy works isn't maybe not so important.. But is seems to be highly efficient.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22209441

Made me wonder if it is so much more efficient why the standard inline difusers in the aquarium trade are not constructed with a venturi? So that gave me a hunch it could be because of the lak of pressure power in small aquarium pumps. But bottom line i do not realy know and confused myself about what i still remeber from wath i learned in the past. All to long ago for me to start a yes/no discussion about it i would need to look up a lot of stuff again to realise i'm made a fool out of myself with saying to much bs. 

Comming to think of it and scrutinizing the consruction of such an air venturi i got left from an old powerhead, i might give it a go and try to build a small one myself just to see how it performs compaired to my standerd inline difuser i'm using now.


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## dw1305 (22 Jul 2016)

Hi all,





zozo said:


> Made me wonder if it is so much more efficient why the standard inline difusers in the aquarium trade are not constructed with a venturi?


I wonder if it is just to do with storage of the gas. It wouldn't work for pressurised gases, because they would just vent straight through the venturi pipe into the tank in a "tank dump".

I run a venturi on a relatively small through-put pump, and it seems pretty efficient, but it sucks in air from the inexhaustible reservoir of the atmosphere.  From <"Personal experience....">.





cheers Darrel


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## Alexander Belchenko (22 Jul 2016)

@zozo thank you for explanation, I thought I knew something about venturi, but never expected it to be used for CO2. Also, on the photo I see only presurre reductors with solenoids to cut off the CO2 supply, and no actual venturi, that's why I was confused. So it should feed actual ventrui system somewhere at the output side of the pump to the tank, I guess. Probably I should have really been there to see all that machine room by myself to understand how it all interconnected and works as the whole.


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## zozo (22 Jul 2016)

dw1305 said:


> I wonder if it is just to do with storage of the gas. It wouldn't work for pressurised gases, because they would just vent straight through the venturi pipe into the tank in a "tank dump".


I'm not sure what you're pointing at with this? You mean a Co2 tank dump?..

I was more thinking of placing a venturi in an existing inline co2 difuser.. Then all it does is  affecting the flow of the water.. With or without venturi the rest of the co2 part stays unchanged. If the theory is correct and the venturi is placed at it's proper possition the already difused co2 should be disolved/difused even more efficiently behind a venturi.. As stated in the link from my previous post it already is much more effective at 24 l/h flow speed.

Placing the venturi aint such a big deal i think already found a suitable candidate to give it a go.. That cheapo Mufan just might do the job. It's completely demountable into seperate parts.



This thing does as is constructed now the oposite of what a venturi does. And placing one in front of the difuser, only need a pump able to push it so the flow rate in the tank isn't to much negatively affected. I'll be off testing some ideas..  And not afraid to admit if it fails.. I learned to walk with falling down, i can take a punch..


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## dw1305 (22 Jul 2016)

Hi all, 
I've got access to the full text of the paper Marcel highlighted. 



 
Fig. 2. 

The schematic diagram of experimental facilities used for carbonation of pond water. (1) Raceway open pond; (2) pump; (3) air diffuser; (4) venturi; (5) CO2 flowmeter; (6) CO2-air pressure cylinder; (7) water inlet; (8) water outlet; (9) sample collecting location.

cheers Darrel


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## zozo (22 Jul 2016)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> I've got access to the full text of the paper Marcel highlighted.
> 
> 
> ...



Interesting, thanx.. So regarding the diagram they difuse co2 and air at the same time? In schematic it doesn't make sense to me right now in how its practicaly build, i would need to see the real installation i guess. Or is it they use an air difuser to difuse the co2 after all they are both gasses? Looks to me 3 and 4 must be buildin into one device.


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## zozo (22 Jul 2016)

OMg now you got me goin..  But it all is very simple if you ask me and i'm about 99% sure it has to work.. If you look at such an air difuser darrel points to, it  is one such as this.





This works with the force of nature, the venturi creates a pressure drop or an up speed in flow whatever (not that important to me right now) at the left hand side, this makes air sucked into from the atmosphere instead of water being sprayed out. Now this venturi is about going from 16mm to 10mm back to 19 mm where the air is sucked in. There is a cross shaped septum placed at the 16 mm section in front of the venturi, this will also reduce and scater the water flow, probably also to create some vortex and make the water go wild behind it. The air which is sucked in behind the venturi gets scatered into little tiny bubbles and difused even more along the way. That's all it takes to difuse air with a venturi, as long as water flows it works and doesn't spill a drop of water. 

An educated guess, if you push through presurized co2 instead of air, it doesn't need to be that much say for example 0.5 bar / 7 psi or even less it will get scatered and difused as well.

My theory says because i think it's only logical, that if there is a venturi close enough in front of an inline difuser, then already (Ceramicaly) difused co2 gets difused even more.


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## zozo (22 Jul 2016)

zozo said:


> the left hand side



Sorry Right Hand side.. I'm getting over excited here.. Need to go and clean one of my tanks..


 Sorry......


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## Tim Harrison (27 Jul 2016)

Great videos Paulo and very interesting discussion...keeping me entertained whilst waiting for a delayed flight back home


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## LondonDragon (28 Jul 2016)

Troi said:


> Great videos Paulo and very interesting discussion...keeping me entertained whilst waiting for a delayed flight back home


Got delays on all my flights so far this year!  two of them by 6 hours!


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## Tim Harrison (29 Jul 2016)

I know...airport security - the worlds gone mad.


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## PARAGUAY (29 Jul 2016)

Just going back to zozo s point about shame its temporary and understanding Paulos point about it costly and however many aquascapers,hobbyists returning it still wouldnt generate enough to make it viable,perhaps it could be promoted from a educational angle,much the same way as school trips,universities and the like getting involved,maybe having special guests,naturalists etc ma  ybe phone call to Sir David Attenborough, Brian Cox would promote to the general public.


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## tmiravent (30 Jul 2016)

PARAGUAY said:


> Just going back to zozo s point about shame its temporary and understanding Paulos point about it costly and however many aquascapers,hobbyists returning it still wouldnt generate enough to make it viable,perhaps it could be promoted from a educational angle,much the same way as school trips,universities and the like getting involved,maybe having special guests,naturalists etc ma  ybe phone call to Sir David Attenborough, Brian Cox would promote to the general public.


Hi, Paulo made a good point. From the start it was thought to be temporary. The art of the visionary Amano is perfectly integrated in the , educational misson, of oceanário. The role of these aquarium is very important in Portugal (along with others) and we are ver lucky to be near and enjoy the evolution of these master piece! 
So we'll keep sharing and enjoying these master piece,
cheers


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## Alexander Belchenko (30 Nov 2016)

Hey guys, from Portugal and not only. Do you have any info whether this exposition will be working some more time? I'd like to visit Lisboa and especially this awesome exposition in next few months, but due to uncertain timeframe for my vacation and possible EU visa implications I'd like to know how much time I have for preparation of the travel. Thanks in advance.


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## kadoxu (1 Dec 2016)

It's a temporary exhibition, but from the page https://www.oceanario.pt/en/exhibitions/temporary-exhibition/ there is one sentence in "Relevant Facts and Figures" that says "1.5 million visitors expected in 30 months"... that makes me think that it is supposed to be there for 30 months (2.5 years), so if it started on early 2015, I would say it should be there until mid 2017... but I'm just making assumptions here... 

Try to contact them https://www.oceanario.pt/en/contacts-us for a better answer.


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## Fisher2007 (20 Feb 2018)

Old thread but given I've just signed up and I'm exploring the site I thought I'd chip in

Went here about 15 months ago and OMG!  The Lisbon aquarium itself is amazing but this tank it incredible.  We spent a good hour just watching it.  I've just had a look on their website and it's still there by the looks of things, so for those that haven't been I'd 100% recommend it

Word of warning though - you will come back and want to upgrade in some form or another!!


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## steveno (21 Feb 2018)

Was there 2 days ago (19/02/18), still looking fantastic.. appeared to be still quite popular as it was quite busy, and i understand that due to it's popularity that it is still open, thou i not sure for how much longer thou, so get your skates on...





That's my son in the foreground, looking very interested, asked if i we could get a tank this big, i wish  and even if i could wouldn't know where to start.


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## Napoleon (25 Feb 2018)

I had the chance to go and see it and until you see it, you won't be able to appreciate the beauty, it really is out of this world 
Can't believe it's a temporary exhibition,  it should be kept as it is MR Takashi Amanos final work. 
Anyway I made a little video unfortunately because of the lighting on the tank it's not the best quality , hope you enjoy it anyway


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## LondonDragon (9 Jul 2018)

Looks like two years later I will be there on the exact same date!! 14th July  

See you there


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