# carpet plant for low tech  no co2



## jonathanj (16 Aug 2018)

can you grow carpet plants in 30 inch deep tank with no co2  

lighting 2x 54watt t5 tubes and 46watt fluvel 2.0 planting led unit

EI dosing daily  with big 50 percent water change each week 

was thinking Staurogyne  repens   but id like a more tight small leaf carpet  if can


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## paul_j (16 Aug 2018)

Helanthium tenellum is working for me. But is not a very low plant. I do dose liquid carbon.
Crypt parva stays a little smaller, but grows very very slow so you have to buy a lot.
Marsilea hirsuta is also an option I heard.


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## foxfish (16 Aug 2018)

I doubt if I could grow a carpet in a 30” deep tank with C02!
Not to say it can’t be done but it won’t be easy.
If you are not useing any form of C02 you won’t need full EI every day and some say that a 50% water change in one go might be too much for a low tech tank?
Perhaps 10% more regularly would be better?
You don’t actually say the size of your tank but that sounds like a lot of light even for a deep tank?


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## jonathanj (16 Aug 2018)

foxfish said:


> I doubt if I could grow a carpet in a 30” deep tank with C02!
> Not to say it can’t be done but it won’t be easy.
> If you are not useing any form of C02 you won’t need full EI every day and some say that a 50% water change in one go might be too much for a low tech tank?
> Perhaps 10% more regularly would be better?
> You don’t actually say the size of your tank but that sounds like a lot of light even for a deep tank?


Thank you foxfish  for the info as im really only just starting planted tanks   the tank is 5ft  30 inch by 30 inch  around 230 gallon buddy   only really lightly planted
I was also little worried because its a pain being 30 inch deep to clean and plant stuff and being on high cabinet    Bet it would be hard work to trim a carpet regular  so would wont I slow growing carpet  
im only using EI  because its all done for you really and idiot proof lol   would you think better to use seachem liquids every other day  and do 2 say 20-30 percent water changes


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## jonathanj (16 Aug 2018)

paul_j said:


> Helanthium tenellum is working for me. But is not a very low plant. I do dose liquid carbon.
> Crypt parva stays a little smaller, but grows very very slow so you have to buy a lot.
> Marsilea hirsuta is also an option I heard.


iv got few crypts and they have really gave me probs keep melting and getting the odd yellow leaf with tiny pepper black/green spots on them   Love crypts though as so many you can pick from bud 

whots pearl weed  as lot talk about this on youtube


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## foxfish (17 Aug 2018)

Well I openly confess that I am no low tech expert but I think useing about 10% of the standard EI dose is right for low tech. 
We carry out large water changes on high energy planted tanks because the fast (relatively) growing plants can cause quite a lot of organic break down and also (to a lesser degree) to dilute any excess of nutrients and salts we had added. 
However it is largely excepted that on a low tech planted tank, 50% weekly water changes are not required.
That is not to say you should not keep up maintainace by cleaning plant leaves siphoning debris etc.
You could think about adding a large piece of wood or rock and planting on that, so the actual plants are nearer the surface, then being easier to maintain.
Lighting is the normal culprit for causing algae, very often far too much light is used for far to long!
Maybe a more experienced low tech tank owner can offer more help.....


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## zozo (17 Aug 2018)

The talllest low tech i have experience with is 50cm and growing a carpet in it wasn't that of a big deal.  Actualy it was so long ago that i'm not 100% sure what plant it was. After doing a search i guess it must have been Helantium tenelum parvullum. Other carpeting plants i have very positive experience with in low tech setups are Eleocharis parvula, Lileaopsis brasiliensis and Sagittaria subulata. Though in any case it takes a ton of patience and time, up to several years depending on your starting budget.

I guess the biggest challenge is getting it to root properly and develop a large and healthy rootsystem. Nice experiment for such a large footprint that tall i would definitively go for a very long dry start with a large amount of plants to start with. A healthy carpet depends on a large healty rootsystem,

Thinking about it and trying to picture me an image another option would be a small var. of Anubias barteri (Peteti or Bonsai) glued to large shallow pieces of wood. But also a plant that needs years to spread and grow some body.

Nice experiment, either way you need a vast amount of patience and make it a very long term project or a very large budget to speed it up with a rather large amount of plants for a start..

For anything rooting in the substrate i would definitively go for a rather very long dry start to grow that large desired rootsystem.I guess this is also what makes actual bog plants with submesed abilities in nature survive long term flood periodes.


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## Edvet (17 Aug 2018)

Lileaopsis and Sagittaria worked in my 400 gallon


zozo said:


> Lileaopsis brasiliensis and Sagittaria subulata


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## jonathanj (17 Aug 2018)

Thanks for some good advice on this carpet for my deep tank   Im  just thinking of just using lot of smaller front plants like crypts for lot of front cover or maybe some Hygrophila corymbose compact that think only get to around 10cm

maybe buy some of these Java moss net pads 15cm by 10cm  and put between the plants at front   

think it will work


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## DutchMuch (17 Aug 2018)

just use pearlweed.
ultimate plant of paradise.


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## Barliman (17 Aug 2018)

Dwarf sagittaria should carpet well even in a low-light set up, given time.


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## jonathanj (17 Aug 2018)

DutchMuch said:


> just use pearlweed.
> ultimate plant of paradise.


whots the name of this pearlweed   so can look it up bud


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## sparkyweasel (17 Aug 2018)

jonathanj said:


> maybe buy some of these Java moss net pads 15cm by 10cm  and put between the plants at front
> 
> think it will work
> 
> View attachment 117258


They will need a lot of trimming once they get going. I would stick with a low grower, like _Helanthium tenellum_, _Lileaopsis _etc.


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## jonathanj (17 Aug 2018)

sparkyweasel said:


> They will need a lot of trimming once they get going. I would stick with a low grower, like _Helanthium tenellum_, _Lileaopsis _etc.


is Helanthium tenellum  ok with no co2 or liquid carbon and my tank runs at 27 c temp  and may go upto 28-28.2 c on hot days


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## sparkyweasel (18 Aug 2018)

Fine without injected or liquid CO2. I haven't tried it at 28°C, but OK at 26°. It grows wild in tropical South America, so I would think it will stand the heat, some-one has probably tried and will hopefully post.


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (18 Aug 2018)

+1 for hellanthium tennellum and dwarf sag (though dwarf sag really isn't a low carpetting plant in the traditional sense). I've also had some limited success with dwarf hairgrass after it took an absolute age to get settled and start growing.


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## DutchMuch (18 Aug 2018)

jonathanj said:


> whots the name of this pearlweed   so can look it up bud


just google pearlweed should come up. 
Micranthemum Micranthemoides


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## zozo (18 Aug 2018)

jonathanj said:


> is Helanthium tenellum  ok with no co2 or liquid carbon and my tank runs at 27 c temp  and may go upto 28-28.2 c on hot days



There are several variations i believe 3 from this plant still a bit under debate in the botanical society. Helanthium tenellum tenellum is South American origine and the Helanthium tenellum parvullum. The parvullum sometimes goes in the trade as HT-Broadleaf, it is North American origine a tad easier and a tad smaller than it SA cousin. Bought in the LFS it depends on the nursery if they are labeled correctly, in many cases both go under the same name.

In your case trying to get the true parvullum (Broadleaf) would be the beter choice..

Regarding crypts, the C. wendtii might be a good choice, i experience this crypt staying rather small in low light condition but still likes to spread and run rather fast. It's actualy the fastest growing and spreading crypt in my aqaurium. The C. parva is in comparison rather latently present, it lives and thats about it.


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## alto (18 Aug 2018)

The non-CO2 injected AquaFlora showroom tank (scaped etc by Filipe Oliveira) is 50cm high so not quite as challenging as 60cm - there are some other tall (up to 90cm height as I recall) tanks shown on FO YouTube channel but they have CO2 

I linked the nonCO2-injected tank videos in this topic


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## foxfish (18 Aug 2018)

Alto, that is a lovely low tech tank and although it proves anything is possible, Jonathan’s (the op) tank is 750 mm deep and the tanks you have linked are run by professionals. So I would say he has a challenge on his hands.
From my limited experience of running a 20” deep low tech, I can remember watching the dry start flourish for a few months and then watching the plants slowly deteriorate once it is was filled!
I persevered for a further few months and did see some new growth appear but I just don’t have the temperment to wait a week to see a single shoot grow 1mm.
However that was before we had so much info and help freely available via forums like this one.
Tim’s attempts, a few years back, at  growing plants in his soil based tanks were really successful!


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## jonathanj (18 Aug 2018)

Foxfish  who you calling a none professional bud    Maybe a westmidlands  thicko  would fit better lol


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## foxfish (18 Aug 2018)

Ha ha sorry mate, as long as you are not in a rush for a few years, I am sure you will get what you want...
I do suggest  you look at Tim’s thread though.... https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/the-soil-substrate-or-dirted-planted-tank-a-how-to-guide.18943/


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## tiger15 (18 Aug 2018)

Helantium tenelum, Eleocharis parvula, Lileaopsis brasiliensis and Sagittaria subulata are look alike grassy plants that differ only in the blade width.  They have deep roots, easy to grow, and take less light and maintenance than classic small leaf carpets such as HC, S repen and M Carlo.  But they won’t give you a neat lawn look but taller and wilder like a prairie.


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## jonathanj (19 Aug 2018)

foxfish said:


> Ha ha sorry mate, as long as you are not in a rush for a few years, I am sure you will get what you want...
> I do suggest  you look at Tim’s thread though.... https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/the-soil-substrate-or-dirted-planted-tank-a-how-to-guide.18943/


good link that foxfish
A  hybrid energy soil tank looks to have so many things going for it   Low maintenance for one   But love that DSM  method for getting a good carpet started   Do people only use this for carpet plants or is it beneficial for other normal plants


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## AverageWhiteBloke (19 Aug 2018)

Cab be beneficial for other plants especially the ones that cling to hardscape. Gives them chance to start attaching roots in the presence of high atmospheric co2.


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## zozo (19 Aug 2018)

jonathanj said:


> But love that DSM method for getting a good carpet started Do people only use this for carpet plants or is it beneficial for other normal plants



Take a look at this.. 
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/return-of-the-shallow.50172/


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## jonathanj (19 Aug 2018)

zozo said:


> Take a look at this..
> https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/return-of-the-shallow.50172/


Aint that just amazing and better than any reef tank

really thinking my next setup should be DSM setup


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## alto (20 Aug 2018)

foxfish said:


> Jonathan’s (the op) tank is 750 mm deep and the tanks you have linked are run by professionals. So I would say he has a challenge on his hands.


Valid points but I always feel the issue with deeper tanks is light penetration to substrate level AND water movement through the entire depth of the water column
“Professional” assisted tanks at 90cm - 100 cm are not that unusual - again there are some on FO’s Facebook & Youtube pages, gleaning filtration, lighting, plant details is easy enough & I think useful information 

While professional aquascapers have a decided experience advantage, George Farmer has shown in recent videos that first timers can maintain a tank & grow stunnng plants just by following protocols 

Where many first timers run into difficulty is by picking & choosing bits of lore here & there & writing their own methodology (& gentle suggestions to follow, for example, ADA *or* EI until they have some understanding of plants is turned aside) ... which is all fine, experience is the best teacher 




jonathanj said:


> lighting 2x 54watt t5 tubes and 46watt fluvel 2.0 planting led uni



Best quality HOT5 and reflectors might deliver moderate PAR at that substrate depth
LED - need minimum 1watt LED, 3watt is much better AND need good internal reflectors & diffusers, also better quality LED rather than knockoffs 

AI Prime freshwater would manage nicely (90 degree lens as I recall so much better depth penetration than 120 degree lens BUT less area of light distribution)

Given your present lights, I’d establish MC carpet with dry start method, then gradually increase water level over several weeks 
Aquario Neo diffuser kit with yeast CO2 would be worth the investment I suspect as well (I’d buy 2 kits)

Marsilea carpet might or more feasible long term but this is slow (especially compared to MC) so I’d still establish with higher light (ie don’t fill the tank past 45cm above substrate)& CO2 initially
You could do a mixed MC, Marsilae carpet, expecting the latter to predominate over time


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