# Best way to raise GH/KH in a heavily planted tank?



## FISHnLAB (24 Nov 2022)

Hi guys, I am looking to increase the GH/KH in my low tech heavily planted tanks. What is the best way to accomplish this without causing any issues with my plants or wildlife? I have a bottle of Seachem Equilibrium I bought a while back for the GH but, my real problem is the KH. I want to add a shrimp colony to one of the tanks with Fluval Stratum as a substrate and its KH is near non-existent. I hear a lot of people just use Salty Shrimp Mineral GH/KH+ and like it but, it's a bit hard to find here and expensive. Others seam to use Calcium Carbonate, Calcium Chloride, Calcium Magnesium Chloride, or Dolomite. All of which are much easier to get a cheaper. 

So, can you guys please suggest the best way to increase my GH and especially my KH? Thanks👍.


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## Wookii (24 Nov 2022)

You don't need to raise the KH for shrimp unless you are specifically trying to increase pH, which is unlikely to be necessary. I run all my RO tanks at 0 KH without issue.

If you want to increase GH (5-6 is ideal for most shrimp) then Calcium Chloride and Magnesium Sulphate work well as adding equal weights of each is almost bang on the often quoted ideal ratio of 3:1 (Ca:Mg), making things especially simple to dose.


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## hypnogogia (24 Nov 2022)

What's you tap water like?


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## FISHnLAB (24 Nov 2022)

Wookii said:


> You don't need to raise the KH for shrimp unless you are specifically trying to increase pH, which is unlikely to be necessary. I run all my RO tanks at 0 KH without issue.
> 
> If you want to increase GH (5-6 is ideal for most shrimp) then Calcium Chloride and Magnesium Sulphate work well as adding equal weights of each is almost bang on the often quoted ideal ratio of 3:1 (Ca:Mg), making things especially simple to dose.


Hey Wookii, thanks for the help👍. 

Oh, I was under the impression too low of KH will affect their breeding/molting and general health but, I am very green when it comes to shrimp and am still in the learning phase before I get them. My plan is to start a breeding colony in this tank(16 Gallon plant propagation tote with the Fluval Stratum for Substrate) by introducing a dozen Neocaridina Davidi. They will be expensive selective bread Blue Velvet Neo's so I don't want any problems. I would appreciate any suggestions or reading material that may help me succeed. Thanks again guys👍.


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## FISHnLAB (24 Nov 2022)

hypnogogia said:


> What's you tap water like?


Hi, thanks for the help👍. 

pH - 7.8
TDS - 45ppm
KH - 3dKH
GH - 5dKH
NH3 - 0
NO2 - 0
NO3 - 0
PO4 - 0


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## Wookii (24 Nov 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Hi, thanks for the help👍.
> 
> pH - 7.8
> TDS - 45ppm
> ...



Definitely no need to boost the KH then!

No, KH doesn’t contribute towards breeding or moulting, that’s Calcium.

Do you know the calcium and magnesium contributions to the GH? In the UK you can sometimes get this information from the water supply company but I don’t know about Canada.

You could probably add a little more GH if you wanted as Neo’s will do well in it, but you may be fine as is.

Neocaridina are easy shrimp to maintain, so I wouldn’t sweat it too much. Blue Velvets should be fairly inexpensive too, so don’t let anyone charge you top dollar for them. High grade ones over here are about £2.50 each.

When you get them just drip acclimate them to your tank water, and add them to the tank. They’ll pretty much look after themselves after that, and will likely start breeding in short order depending on the maturity of the shrimp you are sold.


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## hypnogogia (24 Nov 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Hi, thanks for the help👍.
> 
> pH - 7.8
> TDS - 45ppm
> ...


Your  tap water looks fine. If you use RO, then you could just cut it with tap.


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## FISHnLAB (25 Nov 2022)

Wookii said:


> Definitely no need to boost the KH then!


Ok, good. 


Wookii said:


> No, KH doesn’t contribute towards breeding or moulting, that’s Calcium.


Copy that, thanks. 


Wookii said:


> Do you know the calcium and magnesium contributions to the GH? In the UK you can sometimes get this information from the water supply company but I don’t know about Canada.


No. I always meant to look further into finding a municipal water report as I couldn't find one online. My plan B was to buy a freshwater Calcium test kit so I can do the rough math but, the plan got put on the backburner I while back when I started my new tank build. Do you think this is a viable approach?  In my main display tank, the one I just built, there is a ton of Mountain/Seiru Stone so I don't think Calcium will be a problem but, I plan to put Shrimp in the propagation tank too which is just Fluval Stratum and a ton of plants so that one may run into low Calcium issues. I could get some Cuttlefish Bone, Feeding Blocks, etc. or, I have a bottle of Seachem Equilibrium unopened in house that I bought a while back. What do you think? 


Wookii said:


> You could probably add a little more GH if you wanted as Neo’s will do well in it, but you may be fine as is.


Roger, see above. 


Wookii said:


> Neocaridina are easy shrimp to maintain, so I wouldn’t sweat it too much.


Ok, good to know, thank you👍. 


Wookii said:


> Blue Velvets should be fairly inexpensive too, so don’t let anyone charge you top dollar for them. High grade ones over here are about £2.50 each.


I'm looking at closer to £5 here for some from a local selective breeder. I live in a small isolated town though and it is £3-4 for plain Red Cherry's at the local pet store so that doesn't seam crazy. 


Wookii said:


> When you get them just drip acclimate them to your tank water, and add them to the tank. They’ll pretty much look after themselves after that, and will likely start breeding in short order depending on the maturity of the shrimp you are sold.


Good to know. If I go with the local breeder over the pet store(I can no longer order online due to the cold), I should be able to ask for a specific mix of maturity level and hopefully male to female ratio. What would you suggest for that? 50/50 or maybe 33Male/66Female?

Thanks for all of your help Wookii👍.


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## FISHnLAB (25 Nov 2022)

hypnogogia said:


> Your  two water look fine. If you use RO, the. You could just cut it with tap.


Ok, thanks good to know👍. No plans to buy a RO/RODI system.


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## Witcher (25 Nov 2022)

Wookii said:


> Calcium Chloride and Magnesium Sulphate work well as adding equal weights of each is almost bang on the often quoted ideal ratio of 3:1 (Ca:Mg),


that will definitely do, but my preferred ones are CaNO3 and MgNO3 (plus H2O) as they obviously add more of the N to the water column and less of Cl and S (which are abundant in most of UK areas anyway). Don't going to start the ideal Ca/Mg ratio war though


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## Wookii (25 Nov 2022)

Witcher said:


> that will definitely do, but my preferred ones are CaNO3 and MgNO3 (plus H2O) as they obviously add more of the N to the water column and less of Cl and S (which are abundant in most of UK areas anyway). Don't going to start the ideal Ca/Mg ratio war though



They add too much NO3 though as far as I can tell. I wanted to go the exact same route as you suggest, and try and eliminate the Sulphate and Chloride, but when I looked at it some time ago, to hit, say, GH 5 using CaHO3 and MgNO3 results in 110ppm dose of NO3!

Edit: That was to RO water incidentally - it might work in @FISHnLAB 's case just to top from a 5dGH starting point.

Also, I've never been able to find a source for MgNO3 in the UK (most of those I've seen seem to just be a mixture of MgSO4 and KNO3)


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## Witcher (25 Nov 2022)

Wookii said:


> They add too much NO3 though as far as I can tell. I wanted to go the exact same route as you suggest, and try and eliminate the Sulphate and Chloride, but when I looked at it some time ago, to hit, say, GH 5 using CaHO3 and MgNO3 results in 110ppm dose of NO3!
> 
> Edit: That was to RO water incidentally - it might work in @FISHnLAB 's case just to top from a 5dGH starting point.
> 
> Also, I've never been able to find a source for MgNO3 in the UK (most of those I've seen seem to just be a mixture of MgSO4 and KNO3)


True - it can rise N heavily, I should be more precise and add that I keep water hardness at very low levels (1-2 GH ) plus use some Calcium Chloride and Magnesium Sulphate for compensation (to keep lower levels of N if needed) but not as much as we have in the tap (I use remineralized RO/rain water).
I'm pretty sure you can find Magnesium nitrate on ebay - agro grade, lab grade is difficult to get indeed.


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## LMuhlen (25 Nov 2022)

Witcher said:


> True - it can rise N heavily, I should be more precise and add that I keep water hardness at very low levels (1-2 GH ) plus use some Calcium Chloride and Magnesium Sulphate for compensation (to keep lower levels of N if needed) but not as much as we have in the tap (I use remineralized RO/rain water).
> I'm pretty sure you can find Magnesium nitrate on ebay - agro grade, lab grade is difficult to get indeed.


How do you dose potassium? Most people seem to use potassium nitrate.


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## dw1305 (25 Nov 2022)

Hi all,


FISHnLAB said:


> Others seam to use Calcium Carbonate


It would be my choice and I'm going to tell you that all you need is some <"oyster shell chick grit">.

cheers Darrel


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## ceg4048 (25 Nov 2022)

I'm in complete agreement with Darrel. When I see post like these I cringe because newcomers will inevitably read this stuff and will start worrying about things that absolutely don't matter at all, and that's when they get into real trouble because their attention and energy is spent on useless parameters so there is nothing left to worry about the things that do matter.
So for example, there is no need to worry about Ca:Mg ratio. This is a myth that comes from agriculture. If you're growing tomatos or peaches you may  need to be concerned but our plants are weeds and they do not care. Use as much calcium as you want and as much Magnesium as you want and never worry about some mythical ratio that you actually have no control over.
Here, look. On this tank I went postal  testing this so-called theory and dosed Ca;Mg of about 40:1
Our plants really do not care about that stuff. They care about CO2/flow/distribution.
I mean, honestly, most folks don't even know what Ca or Mg are used for in plants. They just see some number repeated over and over, never actually test it for themselves and just accept it as fact. Then they repeat the number to someone else and this becomes "fact". This is akin to fake news. Test these fake numbers for yourself instead of blindly adopting them and passing them on to some other poor soul looking for advice. Simplify your life. Worry about the _right_ things and the hobby will be a little more enjoyable.


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## Wookii (25 Nov 2022)

ceg4048 said:


> I'm in complete agreement with Darrel. When I see post like these I cringe because newcomers will inevitably read this stuff and will start worrying about things that absolutely don't matter at all, and that's when they get into real trouble because their attention and energy is spent on useless parameters so there is nothing left to worry about the things that do matter.
> So for example, there is no need to worry about Ca:Mg ratio. This is a myth that comes from agriculture. If you're growing tomatos or peaches you may  need to be concerned but our plants are weeds and they do not care. Use as much calcium as you want and as much Magnesium as you want and never worry about some mythical ratio that you actually have no control over.
> Here, look. On this tank I went postal  testing this so-called theory and dosed Ca;Mg of about 40:1
> Our plants really do not care about that stuff. They care about CO2/flow/distribution.
> ...



I guess through the red mist of your rant Clive you weren’t able to see the OP clearly enough to read we’re discussing requirements for Shrimp . . . not plants . . .


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## FISHnLAB (30 Nov 2022)

Hey guys, thanks a bunch for all of the replies👍. Sorry, I haven't been participating, I have been super busy lately with tank stuff as well as unfortunately had 2 different losses in my immediate family. It's been a rough couple of weeks😔. I was in the middle of things(2 seperate builds and new animals added to tanks) so I had to tough it out or everything would have crashed and died. I'm through the worst of it now and the tanks are all doing great with no losses other then a bit of melt with the Ludwigia Super Red in my propagation tank(not sure what caused it but, maybe the new aquasoil). 

Anyway, back to the thread...


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## FISHnLAB (30 Nov 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> It would be my choice and I'm going to tell you that all you need is some <"oyster shell chick grit">.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Thanks for the help and links as usually Darrel. I'll have a look👍.


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## FISHnLAB (30 Nov 2022)

ceg4048 said:


> I'm in complete agreement with Darrel. When I see post like these I cringe because newcomers will inevitably read this stuff and will start worrying about things that absolutely don't matter at all, and that's when they get into real trouble because their attention and energy is spent on useless parameters so there is nothing left to worry about the things that do matter.
> So for example, there is no need to worry about Ca:Mg ratio. This is a myth that comes from agriculture. If you're growing tomatos or peaches you may  need to be concerned but our plants are weeds and they do not care. Use as much calcium as you want and as much Magnesium as you want and never worry about some mythical ratio that you actually have no control over.
> Here, look. On this tank I went postal  testing this so-called theory and dosed Ca;Mg of about 40:1
> Our plants really do not care about that stuff. They care about CO2/flow/distribution.
> ...


I completely agree Clive and have fallen into this trap a number of times already unfortunately. That's part of the reason I closed my Journal, I was just being pulled in so many different directions and it was taking away from the hobby. I stepped back and started making more decisions myself based on my research instead of blindly following the directions of others. I must say that yours and Darrel's posts have been so helpful in my quest for knowledge. Over the years you too have posted so many in depth and knowledgeable posts with links to references and the like. It's been very helpful and I just want to thank you guys so much for your contributions to this site👍🍻. I also want to thank many others for all of there help to me personally as well as for posting many helpful things for others as well.


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## FISHnLAB (30 Nov 2022)

Wookii said:


> I guess through the red mist of your rant Clive you weren’t able to see the OP clearly enough to read we’re discussing requirements for Shrimp . . . not plants . . .


Both actually.

And, I see why this topic rubs him the wrong way. The level of mis & disinformation in this hobby, as well as people focusing on largely irrelevant things is immense and super hard to navigate for a newcomer. I'm pretty certain it leads to the exit of many from this hobby(I was almost one of the exitees).

The shrimp are going into a propagation tank completely stuffed with plants. There main function until I get the 90 they are destined for in the spring is to keep my plants and tank clean along with a group of 8 Malaysian Trumpet Snails. I'm considering adding a half dozen Otos as well. Here is the tank. I'm building a screen lid for it today along with a Cholla Wood hide for the Shrimp. I'm picking up the shrimp from a local breeder on Saturday...


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## FISHnLAB (30 Nov 2022)

So, with my above listed tap water perimeters, should I leave it as is for the shrimp or boost the GH a bit and the calcium in turn? It sounds like the KH is ok? I read all of the suggestions but, all I have available in house is Seachem Equilibrium & Baking Soda. Anything else will get here after the shrimp and I don't want to change anything once they are settling in. So, if I am going to boost, I'd like to start tomorrow with my water change. Thanks for the help guys👍.


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## dw1305 (30 Nov 2022)

Hi all, 


FISHnLAB said:


> & Baking Soda.


Don't use the Baking Soda (NaHCO3), it is all right if you keep <"Lake Tanganyika cichlids"> (even in a planted tank), but most fish and plants don't appreciate the added sodium (Na).

cheers Darrel


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## FISHnLAB (30 Nov 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Don't use the Baking Soda (NaHCO3), it is all right if you keep <"Lake Tanganyika cichlids"> (even in a planted tank), but most fish and plants don't appreciate the added sodium (Na).
> 
> cheers Darrel


Copy that👍.


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## FISHnLAB (6 Dec 2022)

So, I decided to leave my tap water alone for the introduction guys. The shrimp are doing good so far and enjoying their new home. I got them a bunch of Glasgarten products to help keep them healthy.

But, due to the low Tap Water GH, the fact that I have a ton of Mountain Stone in most of my tanks(likely leaching Calcium), and the fact that some of my plants are showing light leaves with dark veins, I think I have a Magnesium deficiency.

So, what is the best way to handle this? I'm guessing Magnesium Sulfate USP? How do I know how much to add? Would this test kit be of use to determine my ratio or at least how low my Mag is/high my Cal is?

Monitor Calcium/Magnesium Low Salinity (0-5 PPT) Test KIT (120 Tests) - Monitor Aquarium and aquaculture Water Quality https://a.co/d/3ZNBYfW

Thanks for all of the help guys👍.


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## dw1305 (6 Dec 2022)

Hi all,


FISHnLAB said:


> and the fact that some of my plants are showing light leaves with dark veins, I think I have a Magnesium deficiency.


Is it the <"old leaves or the new leaves">? This is <"quite important">, but assuming <"it is the older leaves">?






<"_Cryptocoryne beckettii_ 'Petchii'>, <"showing chlorosis"> in the older leaves.


FISHnLAB said:


> So, what is the best way to handle this? I'm guessing Magnesium Sulfate


Yes, "Epsom Salts" - magnesium sulphate heptahydrate (MgSO4.7H20). They are <"about 10% magnesium (Mg)"> and you need to <"aim for 5 - 10 ppm">, I'm going to tell you that the exact amount (or ratio of Ca : Mg etc) doesn't really matter, others may differ in their opinion.


FISHnLAB said:


> Would this test kit be of use to determine my ratio or at least how low my Mag is/high my Cal is?


I wouldn't even try and get a value, magnesium is easy to test for with analytical kit <"New bit of kit - MP-AES">, but much trickier with wet chemistry.  Can you get figures from your water supplier?

The good thing is that magnesium is mobile within the plant. This means that  when it stops being <"Liebig's limiting nutrient"> you get <"pretty instant greening">.

cheers Darrel


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## FISHnLAB (6 Dec 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Is it the <"old leaves or the new leaves">? This is <"quite important">, but assuming <"it is the older leaves">?
> 
> ...


Well, I'm not 100% sure Darrel but, I'm pretty sure you are the guy to ask😁. This is what got me worried. Now, I need to preface that this Hastifolia has been moved and re-glued multiple times recently and I'm not sure if that could have caused it.



Those worst leaf is the newest growth but, the leaf has been open for at least a month I would say.

This is also an issue(light leaves on the new growth of my Salvinia Aruculata)...





dw1305 said:


> Yes, "Epsom Salts" - magnesium sulphate heptahydrate (MgSO4.7H20). They are <"about 10% magnesium (Mg)"> and you need to <"aim for 5 - 10 ppm">, I'm going to tell you that the exact amount (or ratio of Ca : Mg etc) doesn't really matter, others may differ in their opinion.


The stuff I have in my closet here doesn't have Chemical name. It just says Magnesium Sulfate USP. It has no smell. Think I'm good?





dw1305 said:


> I wouldn't even try and get a value, magnesium is easy to test for with analytical kit <"New bit of kit - MP-AES">, but much trickier with wet chemistry.  Can you get figures from your water supplier?


I'm not sure. I couldn't find any online water reports but, maybe if I emailed? I was trying to avoid the hassle if I could do my own testing but, will investigate if I have to.


dw1305 said:


> The good thing is that magnesium is mobile within the plant. This means that  when it stops being <"Liebig's limiting nutrient"> you get <"pretty instant greening">.


Right. That would mean if I am right, the leaves will get green throughout again correct?


dw1305 said:


> cheers Darrel


Thanks Darrel, you are so helpful🙏. I'd really appreciate any advice on a course of action here. Now that I have all of my tanks finished(adding the final additions Thursday - 12 x Trigonostigma Heteromorphabin my 60cm) I am really invested in upping my water chemistry game to really refine things. I'm lucky as I have pretty good tap water so, I don't think it will take much. Here is a pic today of my main display tank(same one as pics above). Things are going pretty well so far aside from the above issues(and the standard fight to get the lighting intensity just right lol)...









Thank you again for all of your advice, help, and links sir👍.


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## dw1305 (6 Dec 2022)

Hi all,


FISHnLAB said:


> The stuff I have in my closet here doesn't have Chemical name. It just says Magnesium Sulfate USP. It has no smell. Think I'm good?


Yes, that is the one and 10% magnesium (Mg).


FISHnLAB said:


> This is also an issue(light leaves on the new growth of my Salvinia Aruculata)...


New leaves look a bit pale, which probably suggests a deficiency of iron (Fe)? Uptake of both iron (Fe) and magnesium (Mg) is reduced in calcium (Ca) rich water.


FISHnLAB said:


> I'm not sure. I couldn't find any online water reports but, maybe if I emailed? I was trying to avoid the hassle if I could do my own testing but, will investigate if I have to.


If you can't get a report I wouldn't worry, just add ~10 ppm (mg / L) Mg and see what happens. 


FISHnLAB said:


> Right. That would mean if I am right, the leaves will get green throughout again correct?


Yes, but if it's an iron (Fe) deficiency only the new leaves (that grow after iron is no longer the limiting nutrient) that will be greener.


FISHnLAB said:


> Here is a pic today of my main display tank(same one as pics above). Things are going pretty well so far aside from the above issues(and the standard fight to get the lighting intensity just right lol)...


I'd be happy with that.


FISHnLAB said:


> I am really invested in upping my water chemistry game to really refine things. I'm lucky as I have pretty good tap water so, I don't think it will take much


It is much easier to <"add things to soft water">, than take them away from hard water,  so you have a good starting point.

I don't test the tank water very often. This isn't because I'm not interested in water chemistry, I'm very interested, but even with access to a water testing lab. considerable time and expense is involved. Both Estimative and Duckweed Indices were developed partially to do away with the <"requirement for water testing">.

cheers Darrel


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## FISHnLAB (6 Dec 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Yes, that is the one and 10% magnesium (Mg).


Ok, perfect thanks.


dw1305 said:


> New leaves look a bit pale, which probably suggests a deficiency of iron (Fe)? Uptake of both iron (Fe) and magnesium (Mg) is reduced in calcium (Ca) rich water.


Yes, that's what I was thinking too as the new leaves are more pale in the tanks with Mountain/Seiru Stone in them which is notorious for leaching Calcium.

I have a brand new unopened bottle of Seachem Flourish Iron(Ferrous Gluconate) that I bought just in case of this problem as I heard, just like Iron Chelate DTPA, it is better absorbed in a high Calcium environment.

Do you think I should start dosing or concentrate on one thing at a time and get the possible Magnesium deficiency sorted first and then look at the possible Fe deficiency?


dw1305 said:


> If you can't get a report I wouldn't worry, just add ~10 ppm (mg / L) Mg and see what happens.


Copy that, will do👍.


dw1305 said:


> Yes, but if it's an iron (Fe) deficiency only the new leaves (that grow after iron is no longer the limiting nutrient) that will be greener.


Copy that. Because Iron is an immobile nutrient where as Magnesium is a mobile one correct?


dw1305 said:


> I'd be happy with that.


Thanks, I'm giving it my best👍. I think if I can get these last issues sorted, it will really shine(with much more time of course as the tank was started only 20 days ago).


dw1305 said:


> It is much easier to <"add things to soft water">, than take them away from hard water,  so you have a good starting point.


Yes, I think I got pretty lucky with my tap water. I don't see a need for a RODI system in my future thankfully.


dw1305 said:


> I don't test the tank water very often. This isn't because I'm not interested in water chemistry, I'm very interested, but even with access to a water testing lab. considerable time and expense is involved. Both Estimative and Duckweed Indices were developed partially to do away with the <"requirement for water testing">.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Yes, I have been following your advice and have discontinued most testing(aside from Ammonia & Nitrite on these new tanks to keep the wildlife safe). I am really liking your suggested "plant reading" /Duckweed Index system much better and have been using it. I can't help but, long for numbers sometimes still though lol. It's just so hard for a technical guy like me to not know exactly what's going on in there so I can micromanage. I do understand now though that it really isn't necessary most of the time and aquatic plants are pretty forgiving when it comes to dosing. Hopefully if I can get these issues sorted, find the perfect blend of a quality AIO mixed with a little Magnesium Sulfate & Iron Gluconate, so I can get back to learning about other aspects of the hobby. One day I will order some more dry salts and start learning to mix my own ferts.

Cheers, and thanks again🍻.


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## dw1305 (6 Dec 2022)

Hi all,


FISHnLAB said:


> It's just so hard for a technical guy like me to not know exactly what's going on in there so I can micromanage.


I understand that, I'd still be happier with ,"some empirical figures"> I <"could trust">, it is the <"_I could trust_"> bit that is problematic. Since I've spent time with ecologists I've been more willinging to use probability <"and inferential techniques">.


FISHnLAB said:


> Copy that. Because Iron is an immobile nutrient where as Magnesium is a mobile one correct?


Yes.


FISHnLAB said:


> Do you think I should start dosing or concentrate on one thing at a time and get the possible Magnesium deficiency sorted first and then look at the possible Fe deficiency?


Just start dosing. If it is iron it will take a while for the plants to green up, if it is magnesium it will happen pretty quickly. I'm not too bothered about diagnosing exactly  what is missing, you have a lot of possibilities.

That is one of the advantages of the "Duckweed Index", <"the plants can't lie">, if they are green and growing, they have everything they need. If they aren't? They don't. If you like <"they are your test kit">.

cheers Darrel


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## FISHnLAB (6 Dec 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I understand that, I'd still be happier with ,"some empirical figures"> I <"could trust">, it is the <"_I could trust_"> bit that is problematic. Since I've spent time with ecologists I've been more willinging to use probability <"and inferential techniques">.


Yes, I definitely see the value in inferential techniques(had to look up the definition lol). The more I learn from you and others, the more I see the reason you chose your methods. Also, the more I adopt them myself. Darn it, I thought those College level Chemistry & Biology courses would be more useful in this hobby lol... Still glad I took them though. 


dw1305 said:


> Yes.


I'm learning slowly but, surely😁. 


dw1305 said:


> Just start dosing. If it is iron it will take a while for the plants to green up, if it is magnesium it will happen pretty quickly. I'm not too bothered about diagnosing exactly  what is missing, you have a lot of possibilities.


Will do. I just need to sort out how much Epsom & Gluconate to start with. I'll shoot for 10ppm increase in Mg like you suggested(I just need to figure out how much per liter that equals). And, for the Seachem Iron, is there a good starting dose or should I get an Iron Test Kit to monitor level? I'm guessing a starting dose is fine as we are trying not to use test kits correct😁? I will be getting some dry salt for this at least when then Seachem runs. 


dw1305 said:


> That is one of the advantages of the "Duckweed Index", <"the plants can't lie">, if they are green and growing, they have everything they need. If they aren't? They don't. If you like <"they are your test kit">.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Yep, it sure seams like plant growth is by far the best test kit. Thanks again Darrel👍.


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## John q (6 Dec 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Will do. I just need to sort out how much Epsom


1 teaspoon or 5g of mgso4 (epsom salts) in 100L of water will raise magnesium levels by approximately 5ppm. Not sure how many litres your tank holds but you should be able to work it out from that. 👍


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## FISHnLAB (6 Dec 2022)

John q said:


> 1 teaspoon or 5g of mgso4 (epsom salts) in 100L of water will raise magnesium levels by approximately 5ppm. Not sure how many litres your tank holds but you should be able to work it out from that. 👍


Thanks for the help👍.

Yep, should be able to figure it out from there. Is upping Mg levels by 10ppm something that could cause problems with my wildlife? Do I need to slowly increase the levels over a period of time like pH, temp, TDS, etc? 

Thanks again.


----------



## MichaelJ (6 Dec 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Thanks for the help👍.
> 
> Yep, should be able to figure it out from there. Is upping Mg levels by 10ppm something that could cause problems with my wildlife? Do I need to slowly increase the levels over a period of time like pH, temp, TDS, etc?
> 
> Thanks again.


Its usually a good idea to change things slowly... That said, a 5-10 ppm Mg increase over say the course of a week shouldn't be a problem at all - just divvy it up in say 2 dosage increases.

Cheers,
Michael


----------



## FISHnLAB (7 Dec 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> Its usually a good idea to change things slowly... That said, a 5-10 ppm Mg increase over say the course of a week shouldn't be a problem at all - just divvy it up in say 2 dosage increases.
> 
> Cheers,
> Michael


Copy, that's what I figured. Thanks for the help again Michael👍.


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## dw1305 (7 Dec 2022)

Hi all, 


FISHnLAB said:


> I thought those College level Chemistry & Biology courses would be more useful in this hobby lol... Still glad I took them though.


<"Definitely not wasted">, they are the <"foundations of everything">. I wish I was a better chemist, but I'm not sure it would help a lot with day to day tank management.  

A little knowledge <"maybe a dangerous thing">, but it allows you to <"make some value judgements">. 

cheers Darrel


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## FISHnLAB (8 Dec 2022)

Ok, I think I have my dosing figured out.

So, this is what I'm going to work up to by the end of the week(daily dose)...

1mL APT E
1.3mL Seachem Flourish Excel
1.4mL Seachem Flourish Iron
5.3grams MgSO4(just to confirm I add 10ppm daily or every water change for this?)

My tanks approximate total actual water volume is 53liters.

How does this sound? Should I split this dosing up a certain way? Are there any interactions I need to know about? I was thinking of dosing the APT E & Excel in the morning and the Ferrous Gluconate & MgSO4 in the evening. Does that sound like a good plan?

Thanks for the help again guys👍.


----------



## MichaelJ (8 Dec 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> So, this is what I'm going to work up to by the end of the week(daily dose)...
> 
> 1mL APT E


I understand this is a low-tech tank, right? If so....

_Each 5ml per 100L dose of APT E  adds 5ppm Potassium (K), 4.6ppm Nitrogen (NO3), 1.5ppm Phosphorus (PO4), 0.16ppm Iron (Fe), 0.4ppm Magnesium and additional amounts of Boron (B), Copper (Cu), Manganese (Mn), Molybdenum (Mo) and Zinc (Zn).

The above dosage is designed to be dosed 3 times a week. So the total per week adds up to: 15ppm Potassium (K), 13.8ppm Nitrogen (NO3), 4.5ppm Phosphorus (PO4), 0.48ppm Iron (Fe), 1.2ppm Magnesium (Mg) and additional amounts of Boron (B), Copper (Cu), Manganese (Mn), Molybdenum (Mo) and Zinc (Zn)._

Just following the dosing instruction will give you more than enough of everything your plants will ever need (except for Mg if your water source is short).



FISHnLAB said:


> 1.3mL Seachem Flourish Excel



I personally never had any success from using it, but others around here have. If you have any mosses I strongly discourage you from using it. It killed my moss and most likely my Vals.
The active ingredient in Seachem Flourish Excel is glutaraldehyde... If I had known what it was back in the day I would never have used it...  its nasty stuff, so make sure you use it in a ventilated environment and wash your hands carefully afterwards.

CDC advice:

"_CAS No. 111-30-8

Glutaraldehyde, C5H8O2 or OCH(CH₂)₃CHO, is a transparent oily, liquid with a pungent odor. Exposure to glutaraldehyde may cause the following symptoms: throat and lung irritation, asthma and difficulty breathing, dermatitis, nasal irritation, sneezing, wheezing, burning eyes, and conjunctivitis. Workers may be harmed from exposure to glutaraldehyde.  Workers can be exposed to glutaraldehyde through inhalation or skin contact. The level of exposure depends upon the dose, duration, and work being done."_




FISHnLAB said:


> 1.4mL Seachem Flourish Iron



Again, if this is a low tech tank there is no reason to add Flourish Iron as you will get plenty of Fe from ATP E - yes, if your water is  hard or high pH Gluconate based Fe is very easy to suck up for the plants but otherwise you do not need to add it on top of what ATP E provides.



FISHnLAB said:


> 5.3grams MgSO4(just to confirm I add 10ppm daily or every water change for this?)


Definitely NOT daily. That would accumulate into 70 ppm minus uptake and a staggering 90 ppm of Sulphate (the S in MgSO4) per week.  Assuming your doing 50% WC per week, I would just add ~2,5 g to the WC water (or right after WC) - the accumulation would be 9.0 ppm *minus uptake* which is a lot and perfectly fine.


FISHnLAB said:


> Does that sound like a good plan?



To me it sounds like you just want to stick to the advised APT E dosing and some additional Mg, with your MgSo4 dosing.  that your water source may be short of. Everything else comes with balanced light levels, proper nutrient distribution, consistent maintenance and maturity of the tank.

Cheers,
Michael


----------



## FISHnLAB (8 Dec 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> I understand this is a low-tech tank, right? If so....


Yep, no bottle... Yet...😈


MichaelJ said:


> _Each 5ml per 100L dose of APT E  adds 5ppm Potassium (K), 4.6ppm Nitrogen (NO3), 1.5ppm Phosphorus (PO4), 0.16ppm Iron (Fe), 0.4ppm Magnesium and additional amounts of Boron (B), Copper (Cu), Manganese (Mn), Molybdenum (Mo) and Zinc (Zn).
> 
> The above dosage is designed to be dosed 3 times a week. So the total per week adds up to: 15ppm Potassium (K), 13.8ppm Nitrogen (NO3), 4.5ppm Phosphorus (PO4), 0.48ppm Iron (Fe), 1.2ppm Magnesium (Mg) and additional amounts of Boron (B), Copper (Cu), Manganese (Mn), Molybdenum (Mo) and Zinc (Zn)._
> 
> Just following the dosing instruction will give you more than enough of everything your plants will ever need (except for Mg if your water source is short).


Sorry, that was supposed to say APT 3. I switched to it from APT E as an experiment 8 days ago and saw an immediate loss of colour in new growth. When I was using APT E, I also saw Iron deficiency symptoms in one of my tanks with large leafed plants(Anubias Hastifolia). So, with my possibly extremely high Calcium levels(leaching from my Seiru Stone and increasing TDS from 45ppm to 140ish) I think even with APT E I am not as plentiful on Iron as one way think. Either way, I have switched back to APT E with my water change yesterday. I will wait two weeks and observe new growth, then add a daily dose of Seachem Iron for two weeks and observe the change to see if there is any improvement over APT E alone(I know I could also just up the dose of E). That should let me know exactly where I stand on Iron in this tank I'm thinking.


MichaelJ said:


> I personally never had any success from using it, but others around here have. If you have any mosses I strongly discourage you from using it. It killed my moss and most likely my Vals.
> The active ingredient in Seachem Flourish Excel is glutaraldehyde... If I had known what it was back in the day I would never have used it...  its nasty stuff, so make sure you use it in a ventilated environment and wash your hands carefully afterwards.
> 
> CDC advice:
> ...


There is a ton of dis and misinformation surrounding this product fyi. I would dig deeper Michael. I'm no expert and already forget half of my research but here are some things...

Excel is not Glutaraldehyde it is Polycycloglutaracetal which is more stable and safer to use. Even Glutaraldehyde itself in diluted form is not that dangerous and is routinely used in the medical and other fields. The alarmism surrounding its use, in diluted form, in the aquarium hobby is unwarranted and silly imo. 

Research into this compound was contracted by Seachem to Tom Barr who extensively tested it. He is bound by a non-disclosure agreement but, has since spoken highly of it a number of times. As have many other prominent voices(some on this site).

Many controlled experiments have been done by hobbiests(ie: two identical tanks, one with one without) that easly prove its efficiency in both algae reduction and carbon addition.

I have personally used it, at the suggested dosage, for around 3 months in a tank with 2 different species of moss(one of them Vesicularia Ferriei which is a medium/hard level moss that is hard to grow in low tech) and it has been a great addition and my tank is thriving(plants and wildlife). Here...






I was able to go higher with my lighting intensity without CO2 deficiency symptoms in my Rotala & Rotala Green as well since adding it. Algae was reduced and easier to manage in my estimations as well. The only way it hurts the moss is if I spot treat by dripping pure Excel directly in the moss and even then it quickly bounces back.

There is a lot more to this topic too but, there are a few points. There is a ton of interesting discussion out there if you dig. Considering the benefits, I have decided to use it for now but, will likely discontinue use eventually(especially if it starts to hurt any of the 4 species of moss I am growing in this particular tank). I plan to eventually go minimalist and use only dry salts in all of my tanks.


MichaelJ said:


> Again, if this is a low tech tank there is no reason to add Flourish Iron as you will get plenty of Fe from ATP E - yes, if your water is  hard or high pH Gluconate based Fe is very easy to suck up for the plants but otherwise you do not need to add it on top of what ATP E provides.


I hope that is the case. But, I still need to use up this APT 3 and it causes iron deficiencies in my plants so it's either up the dose adding a bunch of stuff thats unnecessary, or just use the suggested dose and top up the Iron with Flourish Iron. All of these bottles need to get used up before I order dry salts anyway.


MichaelJ said:


> Definitely NOT daily. That would accumulate into 70 ppm minus uptake and a staggering 90 ppm of Sulphate (the S in MgSO4) per week.  Assuming your doing 50% WC per week, I would just add ~2,5 g to the WC water (or right after WC) - the accumulation would be 9.0 ppm *minus uptake* which is a lot and perfectly fine.


That's what I figured lol. I added 2.5grams yesterday after my water change before I read this. I'll go with this dosage and see what happens👍.


MichaelJ said:


> To me it sounds like you just want to stick to the advised APT E dosing and some additional Mg, with your MgSo4 dosing.  that your water source may be short of. Everything else comes with balanced light levels, proper nutrient distribution, consistent maintenance and maturity of the tank.
> 
> Cheers,
> Michael


Yes, I'm looking to keep feeding simple for now(as simple as daily feeding can be lol) until I decide to try and mix my own from dry salts. No rush to do that either. I'm just going to order 2-4L of NilocG's Thrive for this year and top up if needed with the Seachem products I have in house.

So, the question remains about interactions. Should the APT E, Excel, & MgSO4 be dosed at seperate times? Or is it ok to add all three at once after a water change?

Thanks again for all of your posts Michael, they have been quite helpful👍.


----------



## MichaelJ (8 Dec 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Excel is not Glutaraldehyde it is Polycycloglutaracetal which is more stable and safer to use.


I believe Polycycloglutaracetal is Seachems trademark for a  compound _very similar - if not essentially identical to _ Glutaraldehyde. In fact, it carries the exact same EC/CAS designation. Here is the safety data sheet on Sechem Excel just in case anyone is wondering whether this product merits precaution.  



FISHnLAB said:


> I plan to eventually go minimalist and use only dry salts in all of my tanks.


Thats what a lot of us are doing.  Much cheaper, easier to manage and tweak when you first get it going.



FISHnLAB said:


> So, the question remains about interactions. Should the APT E, Excel, & MgSO4 be dosed at seperate times? Or is it ok to add all three at once after a water change?


You can dose the APT with the MgSO4 together. That shouldn't be a problem in terms of interaction.  I don't know about Excel interaction with other compounds.

Cheers,
Michael


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## FISHnLAB (8 Dec 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> I believe Polycycloglutaracetal is Seachems trademark for a  compound _very similar - if not essentially identical to _ Glutaraldehyde. In fact, it carries the exact same EC/CAS designation. Here is the safety data sheet on Sechem Excel just in case anyone is wondering whether this product merits precaution.


Again, I think you need to do more research on this topic. There has been many interesting posts on here alone from Clive and I believe Darrel as well, I suggest you read them. Not to mention tons of discussion by Tom Barr and many other legends in the field. Much higher concentrations are used in the medical and other fields(disinfecting dental and medical tools for one and they go in your mouth and body right after) then we see in aquarium products and have been used safely for many years. You can find a bad msds report for almost any chemical but, concentrations mean a lot... Imo Excel or Glut in an aquarium specific concentration is less dangerous then most of the chemical/cleaning products in your house/garage. But hey, it's your tanks and your decision if you want to use it or not. It's also your decision to believe the alarmists or look at the science...


MichaelJ said:


> Thats what a lot of us are doing.  Much cheaper, easier to manage and tweak when you first get it going.


Yep, one day I will likely end up there too but, for now I have decided there are more important things to learn and refine first. Not to mention I'm only looking at about $30 for a year's worth of fert at inflated aquarium AIO prices for the tanks I'm currently running. My plants are growing well and I haven't even got the fert dialed in yet. So, if this addition of Mg stops the veining in my hastifolias and I can get good growth with just an AIO and MgSO4 then I am done tweeking for the near future and am going to concentrate on other aspects of the hobby.


MichaelJ said:


> You can dose the APT with the MgSO4 together. That shouldn't be a problem in terms of interaction.  I don't know about Excel interaction with other compounds.
> 
> Cheers,
> Michael


Ok thanks, will do👍. I just wanted to make sure I'm dosing with the most effective method.

Thanks again Michael, I'll post how things work out after a bit of using the new dosing🙏.


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## MichaelJ (8 Dec 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Again, I think you need to do more research on this topic. There has been many interesting posts on here alone from Clive and I believe Darrel as well, I suggest you read them. Not to mention tons of discussion by Tom Barr and many other legends in the field. Much higher concentrations are used in the medical and other fields(disinfecting dental and medical tools for one and they go in your mouth and body right after) then we see in aquarium products and have been used safely for many years. You can find a bad msds report for almost any chemical but, concentrations mean a lot... Imo Excel or Glut in an aquarium specific concentration is less dangerous then most of the chemical/cleaning products in your house/garage. But hey, it's your tanks and your decision if you want to use it or not. It's also your decision to believe the alarmists or look at the science...


Hi @FISHnLAB  I think you might have misunderstood the indent of my original comment on the topic.  First off, I have done a lot of research on the topic back when I was using the product - there is not much _hard science_ on the use of these products that you can take to the bank, unfortunately. I have seen/read tons of testimonials and discussions including posts from Clive and Darrel and others on the use of so-called liquid Carbon (including Seachem Excel). For some it works wonderfully for some it don't - placebo? perhaps, perhaps not.

I am not an alarmist, I am just pointing out the potential hazards of using these products (one of its uses is as an algaecide after all..) and will continue to do so. I didn't even touch on the potential hazards for fish and in particular invertebrates if accidentally overdosed - same goes for gaseous CO2. 

Anyway, just to make it clear: If you follow the dosing instruction, make sure you don't get any bodily exposure to the product it's likely perfectly safe to use. If you are looking for a boost in plant growth and you find that the product works with no ill side effects? Wonderful!! 

I have used the product myself for an extended period of time back in the day in two different tanks.  I have had very mixed experiences from using it - anecdotal as it is. Not much, if any, increased plant growth/health and I've lost  mosses and most likely Vallisneria sp. while using it - could that have been due to something else? unlikely, but not impossible.



FISHnLAB said:


> Yep, one day I will likely end up there too but, for now I have decided there are more important things to learn and refine first. Not to mention I'm only looking at about $30 for a year's worth of fert at inflated aquarium AIO prices for the tanks I'm currently running. My plants are growing well and I haven't even got the fert dialed in yet. So, if this addition of Mg stops the veining in my hastifolias and I can get good growth with just an AIO and MgSO4 then I am done tweeking for the near future and am going to concentrate on other aspects of the hobby.


Sounds like a good plan! 

Cheers,
Michael


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## FISHnLAB (8 Dec 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> Hi @FISHnLAB  I think you might have misunderstood my original comment on the topic.


I may have. Sorry if so, it's hard with only words sometimes. I tend to come off as harsh sometimes too and that isn't always my intention🍻. 


MichaelJ said:


> First off, I have done a lot of research on the topic back when I was using the product - there is not much _hard science_ on the use of these products that you can take to the bank, unfortunately.


There actually is plenty of hard science on the topic including many published studies. Glut has been used for decades to disinfect medical and dental equipment like I said. The same tools that immediately go into surgery and into ones mouth and body cavities including endoscopes. There have been reports of issues in techs that get exposed to it daily over many years but, exposure was in higher concentrations then we get in an aquarium specific product and over a period of years. Here, from the man himself... 




There are also studies into its use in the aquarium hobby. I believe one was done by Dr. Greg Morin but, I can't seam to find a link. Heck, you can easily do one yourself like many others have if you want to know. 


MichaelJ said:


> I have seen/read tons of testimonials and discussions including posts from Clive and Darrel on the use of so-called liquid Carbon (including Seachem Excel). For some it works wonderfully for some it don't - placebo? perhaps, perhaps not.


Like I said, if you dig there are a number of people who have run blind tests with 2 identical tanks. It's pretty hard to deny it when in two identical tanks, with plants from the same in-vitro cup, one with and one without glut/excel and there is a clear difference in the tanks outcome. 


MichaelJ said:


> I am not an alarmist, I am just pointing out the potential hazards of using these products (one of its main uses is as an algaecide after all..) and will continue to do so.


There is plenty of alarmism surrounding this topic all over the net, I wasn't trying to single you out specifically. Main uses in this industry maybe. These products have been used for many years in other fields safely. I believe a wise man once said it isn't the medicine that's dangerous but, the dosage... 


MichaelJ said:


> I didn't even touch on the potential hazards for fish and in particular invertebrates if accidentally overdosed - same goes for gaseous CO2.


Yep, water conditioners, medicinal treatments, and even some health additives can be dangerous or even deadly to our wildlife if used incorrectly or in excess. I can tell you that there are examples all over the internet of people dosing glut and getting 5 or more years out of fish that others can't get half that from. Personally I think the hype around the safety of this topic is alarmist and unwarranted but, YMMV of course. 


MichaelJ said:


> Anyway, just to make it clear: If you follow the dosing instruction, make sure you don't get any bodily exposure to the product it's likely perfectly safe to use.


Yep, and even if you get a little of this highly diluted and polymerized form, in the case of Excel, on you you will also be fine and likely are exposed to more badies and actual carcinogens changing your cars oil. Really, if you ever go to the dentist or the doctor you are likely already being exposed to small amounts of Glut and other disinfectants and biocides. Heck, some of the stuff they use to clean the fountain drink machines and other stuff at chain restaurants is regularly added to your diet(recently in the news, some have been poisoned by these products and are scarred for life). 

Trying to avoid chemicals in this poison filled world we built is an exercise in futility imo. Half of the food we buy and eat is wrapped in carcinogenic products made from crude oil. Our pans are lined with antistick coatings that kill birds if overheated and get into every living thing in our ecosystems even though they were supposed to be banned years ago. Recently scientists have found microplastics(made up of carcinogenic crude oil) in every living thing they looked at, even deep in the living things organs. VOC's known to cause medical issues and cancer emit from nearly everything we own. I could go on, the point is we are already screwed so why worry lol... 


MichaelJ said:


> If you are looking for a boost in plant growth and you find that the product works with no ill side effects? Wonderful!!


Yes, better plant growth is good😁. We all know the best medicine for that is CO2 but, it has its share of dangers to one's wildlife and self as well. It's on my try list though😂. 


MichaelJ said:


> I have used the product myself for an extended period of time back in the day in two different tanks.  I have had very mixed experiences from using it - anecdotal as it is. Not much, if any, increased plant growth/health and I've lost  mosses and most likely Vallisneria sp. while using it - could that have been due to something else? unlikely, but not impossible.


Well, you saw the pics of my tank. That's three months of Excel and my moss is growing like stink. Maybe it was just a dosage thing? I do hear that some plants are definitely sensitive to it in higher doses though. 


MichaelJ said:


> Sounds like a good plan!
> 
> Cheers,
> Michael


Thanks. I hope it works😁. If not, I'll be back here for the thought provoking discussion. Thanks for your help Michael and I hope you aren't offended by our little debate😉👍.


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## MichaelJ (8 Dec 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> I may have. Sorry if so, it's hard with only words sometimes. I tend to come off as harsh sometimes too and that isn't always my intention🍻.


No worries!  🍻



FISHnLAB said:


> Trying to avoid chemicals in this poison filled world we built is an exercise in futility imo.


No one is arguing that the world we are living in is perfect... However, the beauty of a forum like this is that we only have to (or should...) concern ourselves with what we do  in and around our planted fish tanks for the benefit of our livestock, plants and of course ourselves as hobbyists. A lot of the things we discuss here do not lend itself well to be extrapolated beyond what makes sense in the context of the hobby... when it occasionally happens, it usually gets really argumentative, boring,  tedious and pointless for the community 



FISHnLAB said:


> There are also studies into its use in the aquarium hobby. I believe one was done by Dr. Greg Morin but, I can't seam to find a link.


Please post when you find the link - I'd be interested to read it.



FISHnLAB said:


> Well, you saw the pics of my tank. That's three months of Excel and my moss is growing like stink. Maybe it was just a dosage thing? I do hear that some plants are definitely sensitive to it in higher doses though.


Yes!



FISHnLAB said:


> Thanks. I hope it works😁. If not, I'll be back here for the thought provoking discussion.


As you should! 👍


FISHnLAB said:


> Thanks for your help Michael and I hope you aren't offended by our little debate😉👍.


Not at all mate and no worries!   

Cheers,
Michael


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## Wookii (9 Dec 2022)

Just to give my 2c on Excel given I have used it fairly extensively in the past - I don't believe it is particularly beneficial for plants in the way it is advertised, as being a source of carbon. I think far more carbon can be added to a low energy tank by increasing gas exchange.

Where Excel and glut based products are really useful are as a pretty powerful algaecides. Spot dosing, particularly of stubborn red algae is very effective. I personally suspect that where there are anecdotal reports of regular Excel dosing producing increased plant growth, the actual effect being observed is a prevention of microscopic algal growth on the plants leaf surface promoting that growth, rather than any significant carbon acquisition. Ultimately good clean plant growth can be achieved in a low tech tank without the use of Excel, and that is the better path to follow.

In my own longer term use of Excel, I only really saw negative effects of the glut, particularly holes forming in Buce leaves: Holey Buce Batman! . . . - I've not had holes in Buce like that since I stopped regular dosing of Excel.

So for me, I'll always have Excel in my armory as a short term fix for removing algae via spot dosing (not that I get much algae these days fortunately), but I don't believe long term dosing is necessarily that good for plant health and may mask other issues that need to be addressed in the tank, and I certainly wouldn't consider long term exposure to Excel a positive thing for livestock health.


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## Hanuman (9 Dec 2022)

And to add my 3c on this, is that ALL, absolutely ALL algaecides I have tried (I think over 6-7 different brands) f***ed my shrimps in one way or another and some of them my ottos as well. So something to keep in mind. I never treat algae in-tank anymore but rather remove the plant from the tank, overdose some algaecide in a container with water and let the plant bath in there for a few minutes, then rinse. Within 3-4 days all algae is dead. Denis sent me his APT Fix to try but I am traumatized to use any kind of funky liquids in my tank specially when they all tell you that your fish and shrimps will be ok yet you need to keep dosing some of them for 8-15 days 🧐.


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## Flukeworld (9 Dec 2022)

I see the topic is somewhat cleared but as many experienced users here said - many people would come and read this topic, which I understand as - How to increase my GH and KH.
Here, what I have been trough having the same question.

Prelude
I had issues with holes in plants' leaves, old leaves mostly which in most cases translates as Potassium or Magnesium deficiency. Well it didn't work with more potassium dosing, so having very soft tap water I got to the idea to try increasing the GH. I have been using Sachem Equilibrium for some time and it worked. After the bottle was gone I was thinking how can I go cheaper on this.. So ended up (after some research) adding Magnesium Sulfate and Calcium Chloride.
I also had issues with all types of livebearers, which don't like very soft water. Thus I have to increase my KH (inclusive PH). I know its not the best way, but the most accessible was Sodium Bicarbonate. After doing this for few months I finally have Molies offsprings, thriving platies, guppies and all the happy fish. In the same time I keep my dosing low as I also have different kinds of neon Tetras, Otocincluses,  Ancistruses, in other words fish which would not like too hard water..

I believe I got to where I want with this - increase of GH and KH. Its been an year and everything in that regard seems working well, neglecting the warnings about Sodium accumulation.  May be its my weekly maintenance changing 70% of the water or may be it has to go really off with the concentrations to see the bad effect. I just add minimal from what is required (for Sodium, KH and livebearers needs), no visible damage on plants.

Long story short, here is my tap and what I do with it before changing 70% of the water in both of my aquariums:
Note, this is added to 120 litters of water container before maintenance and then poured into aquariums, which are 140 and 40 liters real volume.




*Disclaimer*
This is my experience. You can check my journal to see my aquas.
For my calculations I use this great (really helpful) tool: Nutrient Dosing Calculator
My tap water measuring error is somewhere around +-0.5 ppm I believe. I have been using different vendors liquid reagent tests, but lets say JBL ones overall.
How I see it, 1g of Sodium Bicarbonate per 10 litters with 70-75% water changes per week would not cause damage at least for an year. (I would compare this to dosing 30pm Na3 weekly and not poisonings your fish in severe planted aquarium if you do your maintenance regularly).


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## John q (9 Dec 2022)

.


Flukeworld said:


> many people would come and read this topic


Yep, it's easy  to get sidetracked.
Magnesium sulphate, Calcium chloride and Calcium Sulfate will raise Gh, no effect on KH. Calcium carbonate will raise Gh and Kh. Potassium carbonate will raise KH.

In other news..  Tom barr broke the ndc and disclosed how Excel works, Gregg morin is currently writing an advert( Scientific document for Seachem) to explain why 1,5-Pentanedial isn't called glutaraldehyde, or maybe it is 🤔


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## Flukeworld (11 Dec 2022)

John q said:


> Calcium carbonate will raise Gh and Kh


One important note to avoid my mistake. Calcium carbonate is basically chalk, you cannot dissolve it in water..


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## dw1305 (11 Dec 2022)

Hi all,





Flukeworld said:


> One important note to avoid my mistake. Calcium carbonate is basically chalk, you cannot dissolve it in water..


Yes,  carbonate chemistry is a funny one. Calcium carbonate (CaCO3) is soluble in water, but soluble in weak acids.

Cheers Darrel


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## Flukeworld (12 Dec 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,Yes,  carbonate chemistry is a funny one. Calcium carbonate (CaCO3) is soluble in water, but soluble in weak acids.
> 
> Cheers Darrel




Solubility in water0.013 g/L (25 °C)[1][2]
0.013 g/L (25 °C)[1][2]
Source: Calcium carbonate - Wikipedia

You know, I felt my self a fool by buying a kilo of Calcium Carbonate and then realizing why the water of the blackboard sponge always looked like milk.. Then I walked back to the chemistry shop and got as exchange for  the same price a kilo of Baking soda, which costed like several euro down, not too much but enough to let it go.. But overall  I felt so stupid  of trying for several hours to dissolve chalk water


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## dw1305 (12 Dec 2022)

Hi all,


Flukeworld said:


> But overall I felt so stupid of trying for several hours to dissolve chalk water


Yes, it is only the carbonates of group one (alkali) metals <"that are soluble">. 

If your water is already saturated with Ca++ and HCO3- ions, when you add sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3) CaCO3 will always precipitate out as the least soluble salt, via the <"common ion effect">.

Rain water <"is a weak acid">, which is how ground water becomes hard and base rich, but it takes a lot of rain (really carbonic acid (H2CO3))to dissolve a relatively small amount of limestone.

cheers Darrel


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## FISHnLAB (19 Dec 2022)

Thanks for the additional posts folks, they have been informative👍. I have decided to leave well enough alone anyway as when I tried upping my GH and Magnesium(just mg in one tank but, GH in another without seiru stone) it resulted in worse plant growth. So, I'm back to what worked fine for the most part before lol. I'm pretty sure I am once again doing too much😔 and need to just let the tanks season... 

Also, sorry about the slight derail earlier. It was a good discussion none the less. Just so you guys know, I am far from hell bent on using Excel or other Glut products forever. I just bought a 500mL bottle to experiment with/try and am just testing it on half of my tanks until the bottle runs out. Once it runs out, I will get to see what changes when I stop dosing...


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