# Open Book



## RossMartin (10 Nov 2015)

*Open Book*

I didn't know it was so hard to choose a title for a fish tank. I've called mine Open Book as i am learning how to do everything. I've played with planted tanks for a while but never done one seriously. I know the layout leaves a lot to be desired but i was keen to get some moss on some wood and try to make a lot of areas for the fish to swim trough and around.

*Setup Date:* 03/11/2015
*Tank:* TMC 600 60x45x30
*Light:* 1 x TMC 1500Ultima at 25% for 6 hours no ramp
*Filtration:* JBL CristalProfi e1500, with Acrylic Spraybar and glass intake
*Hardscape:* Manzita Wood andMini Landscaping rock
*Substrate:* Complete ADA Amazonia powder with Power Sand. Aquarium sand and stones
*CO2: *2Kg fire Extinguisher though a ceramic disc diffuser. I'm unable to count the bubbles in the bubble counter. I also add a double dosage of EasyCarbo each day as well
*Water:* 100% RO water (I intend to reminearilise so i can keep shrimp once i have finished with the water changes because of the ammonia spike with the ADA)
*Fertilization:* EI
*Plants:*
- TROPICA 1-2-GROW STAUROGYNE REPENS
- TROPICA 1-2-GROW HEMIANTHUS CUBA
- ELEOCHARIS PARVULA
- POGOSTEMON HELFERI
- CRYPTOCORYNE BALANSAE
- LUDWIGIA PAULUSTRIS
- LILAEOPSIS BRASILIENSIS
- FISSIDENS FONTANUS

*Photo:



*

The originally had the tank setup using a tropica substrate but the plants kept lifting so i replaced it with some ADA Amazonia and Power Sand i hadn't used and left in the garage. As I am using Amazonia i have been  doing 50% daily water changes because of the Ammonia spike. I am now going to do this every other day for the next week and the into a 50% weekly water change.

Some of the plants were plants i had from another tanks but i am keen to get an HC carpet going. Some of the new Repens and Helferi looks like it is melting and i think the HC is starting to go too.










I have an Acrylic spray bar across the back of the tank on my JBL e1500 and you can visibly see the plants moving:




CO2 information for today so far is below. I did do my water change at twelve today hence the temperature spike and PH drop  you can see the actual webpage and current stats here: http://pi.aquapi.co.uk/:




Any advise on how i can prevent the melt would be great. My drop checker is green and my PH probe is calibrated correctly.

Also any comments on the layout would be greatly appreciated as i seem to get mental blocks when it comes to the hardscape!

Kind Regards

Ross


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## Derek113 (10 Nov 2015)

The layout looks great. Im new to aquascaping. 
In terms of advice, dark substrate would make the scape stand out. I was drawn to the light at the back of the aquarium and the sand. 

The planting looks great and interesting though.


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## RossMartin (10 Nov 2015)

Hi Derek,

Thanks for the feedback. I did have Black Tropica substrate in but the plants kept lifting. The plan is that the ADA Amazonia won't be visible once the carpeting plants have spread...if they stop melting!

I really like corys, hence the sand area!

Thanks

Ross


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## ian_m (10 Nov 2015)

I suspect poor CO2 due to you being misled by "tech" and ignoring what the plants are saying. I assume you have demineralised your RO as most pH probes wont work or give meaningful readings if dKH is low, usually below 4dKH.

Or could be plants just settling in in their new environment. Just keep light under control to allow them to settle in new growth should readily appear.

As you have no fish ,you can turn the CO2 way up so that drop checker is yellow where ever it is located in the tank.

I assume the filter @ 1400l/hr is x10 the tank volume , ie tank volume below 140litres to guarantee adequate flow and CO2 distribution.


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## RossMartin (10 Nov 2015)

Hi Ian,

Thanks for the reply. CO2 was my suspicion. What I have done is have the tank setup using good old London tap water and then changed the water out to RO. I know I was getting a PH drop of over 1 point before lights on with tap water.

I have got Seachem Equilibrium to remineralise it but I also have Shrimplab Caridina to use as well. I wanted to use RO water, however am thinking I would be best to cut it with tap water now.

So do you think that I would be better of cutting the RO with tap water and increasing the GH and KH. This should then allow me to accurately measure the CO2 in the water?

The tank is 80 litres so the filter should be more than adequate. I have put pot scrubbers in the filter as to improve the flow.


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## ian_m (10 Nov 2015)

Yes cut the water 50:50 should get you reliable pH readings.

Also try pH readings in different parts of the tank and with all electrics off and unplugged in case you are having electrical interfere issues. Some people have reported pH differences of 0.5 to 1.0 at different ends of the tank due to electrical interference.

Also take a cup of water out of tank at your pH minimum and leave 24hours (or shake vigorously) to degas CO2 then remeasure pH to see if it has dropped one unit pH.


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## RossMartin (10 Nov 2015)

Hi Ian,

I've just done a water change and replaced half the water with decolorisation tap water I did a little bit over 50%  to allow for the water in the filter.

I'll let that all settle down and take some readings tomorrow. I'll add another drop checker and put this close to the substrate where the melt was!


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## RossMartin (10 Nov 2015)

Just to add I really appreciate your time and advice!


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## AquamaniacUK (10 Nov 2015)

That's a nice scape. Too bad the plants are melting.
I have the same light unit as you, but mine is all the way up to 100% as i have the taller 60x45x45 cm TMC tank and the unit is hanging about 30 cm above the tank.
But i am dosing crazy amounts of co2 though, its always more into the yellow than green.
Keep fish and shrimp but they seem unaffected,in fact my red cherrys can't stop breeding.
I am being overrun with shrimp.
And i am using the good old london tap water.
I am not sure if melting would be down to poor co2, usually i get algae with poor co2.
Melting could be more something like not enough light or change a in water chemistry.
Which in your case would have happened when you moved into RO water.
But i am no expert so don't take it from me.


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## RossMartin (10 Nov 2015)

I did think the change was also a contribution. Maybe they are adjusting.  I have reduced the lighting to 15% just in case there is a co2 issue. It did cross my mind about not enough light as I have no algae issues at alI which I didn't think is right as all the tanks in the featured journals have minor algae issues!!!! I must be doing something fundamentally wrong, hopefully with the help of you guys I will find it!


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## AquamaniacUK (10 Nov 2015)

RossMartin said:


> I did think the change was also a contribution. Maybe they are adjusting.  I have reduced the lighting to 15% just in case there is a co2 issue. It did cross my mind about not enough light as I have no algae issues at alI which I didn't think is right as all the tanks in the featured journals have minor algae issues!!!! I must be doing something fundamentally wrong, hopefully with the help of you guys I will find it!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Like i said i run mine at 100% but when i researched the unit here they all replied they were not using anywhere near that. 
But even so 15% seems pretty low to me. Maybe someone using the same unit and tank as you can help.


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## RossMartin (11 Nov 2015)

Hi All,

So i took some reading of the water today.

Tap water:
PH: 7.6
TDS: 336
KH: 16
GH: 19

Tank Water:
PH: 7.0
TDS: 226
KH: 7

At Lights on the PH had dropped 0.5 of a point. Looking at the charts this PH/KH/CO2 charts this is about right.....assuming i am looking reading it correctly.

This is a photo of the tank with the drop checkers three hours after the lights turned on. You can see i added a drop checker about an inch above where the melt was. Both drop checkers were yellow.





This is a picture of the drop checkers 45 minutes after the CO2 went off, not the best photo..and to add i am colour blind, although my better half assures me they are both yellow:


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## AquamaniacUK (12 Nov 2015)

To me they are both yellow.
As for the rest of the values i'll be honest i never test for anything in my tanks.
Can't be bothered anymore.
Used to do it back in the day but  today i just look at the  plants,do some tweaks,watch them again and readjust depending on how they are doing.
I am not an expert though, just outgrew the need to be testing all the values, either that or i took EI's  philosophy of no testing to serious.
What am i saying..
I am just a lazy blahblahblahblahblahblahblah...

P.S tank does look good though.


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## RossMartin (12 Nov 2015)

I never tested, but i thought for £10 i get a rough idea of the KH so i can use the PH/CO2/KH charts to see what i should be aiming for! It was also an excuse to go and look at the LFS and get out of doing the hoovering!


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## AquamaniacUK (12 Nov 2015)

RossMartin said:


> I never tested, but i thought for £10 i get a rough idea of the KH so i can use the PH/CO2/KH charts to see what i should be aiming for! It was also an excuse to go and look at the LFS and get out of doing the hoovering!


I use my fish to tell me when its enough i guess. Probably not the best method.
I have the drop checker to give me an idea, but i aim to always have as much co2 in there as possible without affecting my fish and shrimp.
I have both my tanks going well into the yellow but both my fish and shrimp seem unaffected and the shrimp keep breeding consistently.
For me that's enough to say i am not dosing too much.
I also try to maximize flow as much as possible so i have my filter outlet and extra wavemaker positioned in areas where i noticed flow was not so good.
The problem with the dropchecker is that it's not giving you how much co2 have in the water at that exact time. There's a significant delay that makes it hard to actually notice variations.


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## dw1305 (12 Nov 2015)

Hi all, 





RossMartin said:


> What I have done is have the tank setup using good old London tap water and then changed the water out to RO.


Your active substrate will have picked up a some calcium (Ca++) ions from the tap water (it will have exchanged them for less strongly bound cations like NH4+, K+, H+ etc ). There may also be anion exchange effects with HCO3-

This may mean that the dGH and pH will continually creep up. 

The first time I used cat litter I washed it in our very hard tap water to get rid of the smell (didn't work), but I found subsequently that it took a long time (~6 months), changing the water with rain-water, to get the hardness and pH back down.

The next time I used cat litter I just put it in a bucket of rain-water and left it in the garden for the winter. It still smelt at the end of this, but it didn't alter the pH.

cheers Darrel


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## RossMartin (12 Nov 2015)

Thank Darrel,

I don't pretend to understand the scientific element to be honest, i never took to chemistry. Strange really as my dad as a degree in it!

Is this likely to cause me issues, in particular melting plants? Also i am now using 50% RO and 50% tap water now as well so i can get accurate results when measuring the PH. I'm more than happy to keep using it!

At the moment i only want put fish in. Ottos, Panda Corys and either Celestial Pearl Danios (or what ever they are called this month!) or cardinal tetras. I'm happy to wait to put shrimp in.

Many thanks for you input.

Ross


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## MrHidley (12 Nov 2015)

Melting is usually down to poor co2 distribution. I'd keep your lights down at the 15% (maybe even lower it), which will slow the plants metabolism. Watch your plants and see how they respond, your TMC tile is a very powerful fixture and most people suspend these 30-40cm above the tank.

Regards,
James


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## RossMartin (12 Nov 2015)

Hi James,

Ironically i was thinking about turning the lights down when you posted. The melt is in the centre of the tank where i imagine the light it at its most intense. I have turned both channels down to 7% and will monitor for the next few days. I had an UP lnline atomizer that developed a fault. I'm waiting for the replacement to come from CO2art. It should be here in the next few days. I'll put this on so i can examine where the bubbles go. I really don't like the look of the bubbles but i'll use it so i can see the flow. Once i know i can always go back to the diffuser on the outlet of the filter, or i could put the atmoizer on the inlet as i have a spare ceramic tube so can clean it out often and easily.

Thanks

Ross


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## dw1305 (13 Nov 2015)

Hi all,


RossMartin said:


> I don't pretend to understand the scientific element to be honest............Is this likely to cause me issues, in particular melting plants? Also i am now using 50% RO and 50% tap water now as well so i can get accurate results when measuring the PH. I'm more than happy to keep using it!
> 
> At the moment i only want put fish in. Ottos, Panda Corys and either Celestial Pearl Danios (or what ever they are called this month!) or cardinal tetras. I'm happy to wait to put shrimp in.


No it shouldn't prove a problem. Cardinal Tetra are happier in softer water, but they survive in harder water. For most plants it doesn't make any difference.

As a general rule tanks with some dGH/dKH  are easier to look after than ones with very soft water.

If you want to breed fish that need soft water or keep Crystal Red Shrimp etc. you need to keep an "active substrate" away from hard water

cheers Darrel.


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## RossMartin (15 Nov 2015)

So I made a couple of changes during my weekly 50% water change today. I removed the aesthetically pleasing acrylic spray bars and put my black JBL ones back in. This appears to improve flow as the plants are moving more. It also allows me to put them higher up so I get more surface agitation. I also got my replacement UP inline atomiser from CO2art so I have added this onto the filter outlet so I can see the bubbles and flow. I'll give this a few days to see what happens!

The lights are on 7% for six hours a day. I can't help but feel I am doing something fundamentally wrong. I look at some Journals with in tank diffusers running 2bps, less turnover and lights much brighter than what I run mine at and they are amazing! I don't know how people do it. I've never had luscious looking plants. I can't count the bubbles in my bubble counter as they are so quick it looks like a constant stream. I find that each week I have to refill my bubble counter due to the water being pushed up the tube by the number of bubbles I have running.


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## RossMartin (16 Nov 2015)

So below are photos of the JBL spray bar fitted and the melt. I have fitted the spray bar about an Inch under the water surface with the holes pointing level towards the front of the tank as per some of Ceg's threads.

Todays Info is:

PH at CO2 on: 7.45
PH at Lights on: 6.5
PH at CO2 off: 6.31
PH at lights off: <I will add this at 21:00>

Both channels on the TMC1500 are at 7%.








 

I have added a couple of videos to YouTube so you can see the surface agitation i have as well as the flow. Excuse the video quality, its a new camera and i didn't know how to work it!!!

*Surface Movement*


*Flow and Melting*


Any other ideas or advice would be great!


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## Jaap (17 Nov 2015)

Your problem is the light. I had the same exact problem because of too little light.

A 40cm from the substrate, I had the TMC 1500 at 50% for 8 hours.

Now for a bigger tank, similar to yours, the TMC 1500 is at 50cm from substrate, 7 hours and 65%.

You have too little light! At 7% it should be dark!

1. Circulation is more than enough, a bit too much I might say. Cut it back a little so that plants will not have any mechanical damage.
2. I wouldn't imagine you having a nutrient deficiency with that substrate and even if you did it would have shown differently.
3. Ph drop is good. You have plenty of CO2 there.
4. Light! Light! Light! is the only one thing left.

I had the same problem. Up the lights my friend...you will not hear this very often in this forum but up the lights! Look at what happened to me:

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/natural-aquarium-attempt-16-06-2015-pics.33795/


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## RossMartin (17 Nov 2015)

Hi Jaap,

The lighting has always been in the back of my mind as i don't suffer any algae issues at all...i haven't seen any in that tank. I'll put it up to 30% over a few days. I have got plenty of CO2 in there, It sounds like a fizzy drink!

I'll also turn the flow down a bit!

Thanks for your input!

Kind Regards

Ross


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## Jaap (17 Nov 2015)

Just set it to 30% and then go up 1% each day until you reach 45%-50%. That should be sufficient for good healthy plants. However, you should increase the light immediately as the plants don't photosynthesize at the moment. Also ensure that there is no ambient light in the room before or after lights are on.

Keep us posted. Set the lights 30% today and see what happens over the next couple of days.


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## RossMartin (17 Nov 2015)

Hi Jaap,

There is no ambient light so i have put them to 30% and will increase as you say.

I'll update this Journal.

Many thanks again

Ross


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## markk (19 Nov 2015)

Hi,

Out of interest, what pH probe are you using?

I wrote some controller software for my raspberrypi earlier this year. At the moment it controls the LED lights and dosing pumps and  monitors various temperatures - but I'd like to add support for other sensors as well. 

Thanks and regards,
Mark

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## Kajpai (19 Nov 2015)

I agree with Jaap on this one.
30% is a good starting point. I'm running the exact same light on a Fluval Edge. Started of at 30%-ish and now running 55% (3 cm from water surface, about 40 cm from substrate).
The Growth has been crazy with that setting and sufficient CO2.

Only concern is the Anubias being too high up and exposed, but if you let the Palustris shade it should be ok.

I really like the layout of your roots, and it will look really Nice when it grows in


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## RossMartin (19 Nov 2015)

Hi Mark,

I use the Atlas Scientific probe and circuit. Really easy to setup. It records a reading into the MySQL database every five minutes using  a Python script run by a cron job. The webpage runs a php script every two seconds. I found that if I ran the script every second I would get weird readings as it was when the sensor buffer was clear due to a new reading being taken. By making it every two second the buffer always has something in it.

I plan on getting their conductivity kit so I can monitor TDS. The issue here is that the PH and Conductivity sensors can't work together.....I forget why. I need to email Atlas Scientific to see how they would get them both working. I imagine I will need to look at an Arduino board to make it work.

If you get the Atlas Scientific PH probe, make sure you get the electrical isolation circuit too otherwise you will always have a PH of 10.0 due to interference from the other electrical kit in the tank!

Any questions please just ask!

Thanks

Ross


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## markk (25 Nov 2015)

RossMartin said:


> Hi Mark,
> 
> I use the Atlas Scientific probe and circuit. Really easy to setup. It records a reading into the MySQL database every five minutes using  a Python script run by a cron job. The webpage runs a php script every two seconds. I found that if I ran the script every second I would get weird readings as it was when the sensor buffer was clear due to a new reading being taken. By making it every two second the buffer always has something in it.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the info. Really nice piece of kit though I'm not sure I can justify the price - and that's before adding the isolation circuit.

As far as I can tell, the pH and conductivity probes should work together if they're isolated from each other - so presumably that means another isolation circuit.

Cheers
Mark

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## alto (25 Nov 2015)

Hi Ross

hopefully plant growth is improving 

Like Jaap, I feel your flow is too great (very few plants in the trade are from riverine ecosystems) & lights too low, CO2 is high so unlikely the limitation.

I didn't notice if you're adding water column fertilizers, you might try small amounts (not much plant volume for uptake, presently)

Re Tropica soil not "holding" the plants initially, I find this is only a consideration in the first few days as the soil "spheres" slowly saturate - I use the powdered version so perhaps the larger particles are more given to "float" ...
I add Tropica Growth Substrate, then Tropica soil, then fill the tank slowly - there is considerable air trapped in the substrate which slowly releases over the next several weeks (I think this is a good thing in a new tank substrate so set up my tanks with this outcome no matter the substrate chosen), drain the tank & refill as needed until I'm happy with water clarity (1-3 times depending), then plant with substrate damp but no pooled water.
Using this method I have very few floaters - depending on plant species, rooting occurs over the next days to weeks & then I can actually "vacuum" close to substrate to remove debris etc.

I find a shrimp & otocinclus clean up crew very good at limiting plant melt - shrimp tend to remove damaged leaves before there's much visible melt, otos control diatoms (which can quickly coat plant leafs) ... of course this rather supposes a cycled filter & large water changes (especially if using ADA soils).


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## Jaap (26 Nov 2015)

Any updates?



RossMartin said:


> Hi Mark,
> 
> I use the Atlas Scientific probe and circuit. Really easy to setup. It records a reading into the MySQL database every five minutes using  a Python script run by a cron job. The webpage runs a php script every two seconds. I found that if I ran the script every second I would get weird readings as it was when the sensor buffer was clear due to a new reading being taken. By making it every two second the buffer always has something in it.
> 
> ...


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## RossMartin (1 Dec 2015)

Hi All,

Apologies for the lack of updates it has been  manic.

So not great news the plant melt stopped so i added some more 1-2 Grow plants to replace the meted ones but these are now showing signs of melt after a week of being in there. I dropped the lights down to 30% and i have re arranged the spraybar. My thinking behind this is that maybe the lants in the middle and back of the tank aren't getting enough CO2. I'll post some photos up later on.


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## RossMartin (2 Dec 2015)

Right so the melt is as shown below! I've put the lights down to 30%



 



 

I just don't know what to do!! It seems to be the HC, Postegemon Helferi and the Repens that are suffering. They were all new plants i brought a week ago on Thursday. They were ok for the first week but then started to slowly melt!


I feel like i'm banging my head agaist a brick wall! It doesn't help seeing some journals where people create decent scapes so easily!!


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## Jaap (3 Dec 2015)

Hello my friend.

I feel you. I had/have the same feeling of despair. However. remember that desperate times call for desperate measures!

First thing first! I believe you have the same exact tank as George Farmer had in this aquascape (http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/georges-tmc-signature.25103/). This means that you have very very low light if you take into account that he has 2 x TMC 1500 on 100% intensity! So since nothing has worked for you up until now, I suggest you go half way than George Farmer did and just full blast your light to 100% intensity. Do This over a weeks time, increasing the intensity 10% per day or if you are not sure go 5% a day. However, I believe that 100% is your destination for sure.

Secondly, I am experiencing the same thing you are and I have made the observation that my Monte Carlo started to melt when I saw some algae and decided to lower the light intensity. Then the melting came and I thought lets lower light intensity even more! But yesterday I talked with George and he clearly said to increase the lights to 100% intensity and if CO2, Circulation and Fertilazation are ok then the plants will be fine. If you have algae just clean it up until the plants start doing well and then the algae will disappear. 

I am 100% sure that your circulation and CO2 are more than enough! You are using EI so even if you are messing up the dosing or the mixtures or whatever, since you have a low biomass at the moment, it should cover the fertilization part! My friend, the problem is your light!

George Farmer said go 100% intensity and when George Farmer gives an advice I follow, no questions asked! 
Even if he is wrong....we both have hit a brick wall, so there is only one way out of it! Do something we haven't done before! Up the light intensity drastically!

Yesterday my light intensity was 40%, today it is 50% and tomorrow it will be 60%. I have seen that at 40%, I have problems so there is only one way out of it and that is going up. If we mess up then whats the difference, you plants are melting as it is....but if there is a 50% chance for the plants to bounce back if you increase the light intensity then go ahead and take it mate. 

As for the people in the forum, I am sure we are trying to give the best advice possible but sometimes we make mistakes  One of the mistakes we make is to relate melting with low co2/circulation....

"Its your lights, you need to have brighter lights!" - said by no-one never before

Thanks


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## AndreiD (3 Dec 2015)

Hi , it can be the light since HC is growing up instead of "standing" on the soil , but much are your NPK levels ?


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## RossMartin (7 Dec 2015)

Hi Jaap,

I had a read of your thread, I'm glad I'm not the only one with this issue. I've upped the lights like you said and it looks like the melting on the Repens and Helferi has stopped.... Touch wood.... I'm going to risk it and add some more plants as not much survived! It's a £30 experiment but what the hell!

I think I am at 80% at the moment and will increase this over the next couple of days to 100%

Let's see what happens!!!



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## RossMartin (7 Dec 2015)

Hi AndreiD,

I does EI at 20ml per day, I should be 16ml but I add extra because I can! I run 50% RO water and 50% good old London tap water.

I don't know what my NPK levels are as I don't have any test kits to check this with due to them not being accurate!

I should add that I use the values to make my mixes up in this link: 

http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/fertilisers/dry-chemicals/starter-kits/ei-starter-kit.html

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## Jaap (8 Dec 2015)

RossMartin said:


> Hi Jaap,
> 
> I had a read of your thread, I'm glad I'm not the only one with this issue. I've upped the lights like you said and it looks like the melting on the Repens and Helferi has stopped.... Touch wood.... I'm going to risk it and add some more plants as not much survived! It's a £30 experiment but what the hell!
> 
> ...


Maybe a few pictures? 

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## RossMartin (8 Dec 2015)

Hi Jaap,

As requested!

The Fissendens seems happy:









However this was where the Helferi was as you can see the Repens isn't melting anymore, apart from some of the smaller bits but i think this is because it melted already before i had upped the lighting:





Here is the tank side on i'm thinking of getting some Blyxa Japonica to put along the back. I've always had good success growing it. Also it would add some plant mass.:





As you can see there is a bit of Algae:





My thinking was to remove the sand and add Amazonia so i can get a carpet where the sand was.

Ive got some Monte Carlo comming so am going to remove the HC and add that. I also have more Repens and Helferi as well. I'm in two minds about going to full tap water but i think i will see how the new plants go.

As always any advice is welcome!!

Thanks

Ross


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## RossMartin (8 Dec 2015)

Here is a close up of the HC. The camera and lights make it look greener than what it is! As always please excuse the shoddy camera work!


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## MrHidley (9 Dec 2015)

RossMartin said:


> Here is a close up of the HC. The camera and lights make it look greener than what it is! As always please excuse the shoddy camera work!



My two cents... With pearling like that occurring I would imagine that your lights are still set too high. Your still very early on in the development and growth of this scape and while the plant mass is so low you really don't need high lighting. There's not really such a thing as a high light plant, but there are such things as high co2 requirements for plants. With you struggling to find balance I would drop the lights really low, better to grow plants slowly than kill them. I would also try to remove as much of the dead leaves as possible. Patience is key at this point, live with slower growth.


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## RossMartin (9 Dec 2015)

Hi Mr Hindley,

Thanks for you reply. I'm not convinced that is pearling, I think it is the co2 getting caught on the fissidens as it is like that most of the time the co2 is on. I have had the plants at light levels below 30% and down to 7% and had exactly the same issues with he plants melting. Today I got a ph drop of 1.5 between co2 on and lights on so I am happy co2 is ok, I also have two drop checkers which are next to the melting plants and they are yellow. I dose EI which should be 16ml but I dose 25ml so the thinking was that the lights were not bright enough as everything else appears to be ok......having said that I am happy to be told otherwise! 


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## MrHidley (9 Dec 2015)

RossMartin said:


> Hi Mr Hindley,
> 
> Thanks for you reply. I'm not convinced that is pearling, I think it is the co2 getting caught on the fissidens as it is like that most of the time the co2 is on. I have had the plants at light levels below 30% and down to 7% and had exactly the same issues with he plants melting. Today I got a ph drop of 1.5 between co2 on and lights on so I am happy co2 is ok, I also have two drop checkers which are next to the melting plants and they are yellow. I dose EI which should be 16ml but I dose 25ml so the thinking was that the lights were not bright enough as everything else appears to be ok......having said that I am happy to be told otherwise!
> 
> ...



My advice would be, drop the lights, let the plants recover for a couple weeks at least.


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## Jaap (10 Dec 2015)

Respectfully, I would have to disagree with MrHldley.

I believe the bubbles in the riccia/fissidens do not indicate pearling. They could be CO2 bubbles trapped, Oxygen bubbles trapped from a water change or even pearling that has accumulated throughout the days. Pearling is not an indication of any kind. However, looking at the foreground plants, they are growing upwards for light. furthermore, RossMartin's setup I believe has all covered in respect to CO2, Curculation and Nutrients. The only thing left is light. Plus taking into account George Farmer's setup where he had two of these lights on top of the exact same tank, I would say you are fine.

How far above the substrate is your light?


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## RossMartin (10 Dec 2015)

Hi Jaap,

The light is between 30cm - 38cm from the substrate. After a bit of reading of some other threads I dropped the lights from 90% to 65%. I have added more Repens, Helferi and some Monte Carlo.

I've also removed the sand and made it all ADA Amazonia this is where I have put the Monte Carlo.

I have dropped the amount of co2, I still get a 1 ph drop before lights on but I don't think I need to get to a 1.5 ph drop, I imagine I am wasting it at those levels.

I'll put some more photos up tomorrow!

Thanks

Ross


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## ceg4048 (11 Dec 2015)

Hi Ross,
            That's a really nice scape mate. I guess more light hasn't solved your original problem, right? And now you have algae threatening to ruin the hard work. As usual, your first port of call should be investigating the possibility of a distribution problem, manifested on the slope containing the HC. If the geometry of your mound was such that climbed front to back across the tank length, the flow energy coming down the front pane would follow the slope and adhere to the substrate on its way to the back, but the shape you have disrupts the flow patterns as there is less resistance on the far left, so the energy has a tendency to squirt out to the left.

I also notice in the fist set of photos that there seemed to be some kind of pump mounted on the right side pointing to the left? If that's so it further exacerbates this potential problem and steals whatever remaining energy is needed to adhere to the substrate and to climb the mound.

I'm not suggesting that you dismantle the scape, only that you focus on trying to get flow energy to climb that hill so that it passes over the HC. You can have all the flow in the world but it does you no good if it doesn't get to the right places. That's why I always use the expression "flow/distribution".

So I reckon the first thing to do is to reduce your intensity so you only have to battle one problem instead of two problems.
Then, if that black box in the front is indeed a pump, then perhaps put it to better use and point it in a direction that actually helps the HC.
If the flow of the pump is too strong coming straight out of the nozzle, then move it back a bit or fabricate some kind of mini spraybar to spread the energy out a bit. A Koralia might have been a better choice, but again, it doesn't have to be pretty right now. It just has to be effective. You can figure out aesthetics later.

As a sanity check, have you tried visualizing the flow patterns? I might be wrong in my assessment, so take some of the dosing powders (the least soluble one, like trace powder) and drop some right at the very front glass to see where it spreads. If your distribution on the mound is good then you should see the powder particles drop down the front glass, hit the bottom and fan out over the HC along the mound's surface as they dissolve. If they do then we've got to keep searching for a different answer, but if the powders flow off to the left or right instead of climbing the hill then this indicates that's where your CO2 is going as well.

Cheers,


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## Jaap (11 Dec 2015)

Hello Clyve,



ceg4048 said:


> If the geometry of your mound was such that climbed front to back across the tank length, the flow energy coming down the front pane would follow the slope and adhere to the substrate on its way to the back, but the shape you have disrupts the flow patterns as there is less resistance on the far left, so the energy has a tendency to squirt out to the left.



you know that I respect you and follow your every advice but I have to disagree with you here. The hardscape is very simple and if you see the videos above the flow is plenty as well as the CO2. Now the CO2 is more than enough but I don't know if its harmful a certain levels for the plants, have no idea. 

Also consider that other people in the forum use this light including me and have it at a much higher intensity than 30%. I believe the melting is due to low light. Now 65% at that distance I believe its ok.

Obviously we have different opinions regarding this specific matter and I don't think it would be good to argue on the matter. The OP has two different opinions so we will not be to blame if everything goes wrong 

Thanks


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## RossMartin (11 Dec 2015)

Hi Ceg,

Thanks for your kind word and advice.

Increasing the lighting certainly stopped the melt from continuing however a lot of HC, Repens and Helferi  had suffered and died, so they were removed, but increasing the lights certainly did help. I read some posts that you had contributed on and was thinking of adding a 60 minute ramp up  just so they are not getting hammered with the light from the word go...this would also give me a little leeway should i not get to a 1 PH drop before lights on. I caviat that as i always get a 1 ph drop by lights on.

The pump is a surface skimmer as i was getting the biofilm on the surface due to poor plant health. This only runs at night when CO2 is off, however i did do the test with the powder and the pump was blocking the CO2 from getting to the bottom right of the tank and was probably the cause of the Helferi melting there.

I also noticed (and probably didn't put 2 + 2 together before) but my stem plants at the back are looking very "leggy" at the bottom and ok at the top. The flow using the powder did show that the mound was blocking flow to the back of the tank.

What i plan to do is to add more substrate to the back of the tank to remove the mound and make it a complete slope front to back so the flow can travel better. Unfortunately i ran out of the substrate so i have ordered more and it will be here on monday. I will drop the lights some more until i get that in.

I really appreciate your feedback and taking the time to read the journal.

Thanks again

Ross


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## RossMartin (11 Dec 2015)

Hi Jaap,

I think taking advice from you and Ceg will fix the problems. I really do think i had the lights on too low and this was evident by the melt stopping as soon as i cranked them up! I think i was guilty of being afraid of turning them up too much but as you pointed out i did have enough co2 and Ferts! So you advice on adding more light and Ceg's advice on checking the flow i'm sure will get it going!

Thanks for your help on this. I will keep the journal updated!!

Thanks again

Ross


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## Jaap (11 Dec 2015)

RossMartin said:


> Hi Jaap,
> 
> I think taking advice from you and Ceg will fix the problems. I really do think i had the lights on too low and this was evident by the melt stopping as soon as i cranked them up! I think i was guilty of being afraid of turning them up too much but as you pointed out i did have enough co2 and Ferts! So you advice on adding more light and Ceg's advice on checking the flow i'm sure will get it going!
> 
> ...


We want pics Ross

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## RossMartin (12 Dec 2015)

Right so i added some more Amazonia to build the back up so there is no mound. You can see the bubbles folowing the substrate to the back. I'm going to get some Blyxa at the back as that always does well for me!


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## flygja (14 Dec 2015)

I don't think I've ever seen a tank with that much CO2 microbubbles before. It's quite a nice scape... spidery and triangle-y if that makes any sense. I'd stand on Jaap's side with this. I'm starting to think about deficiencies in a different way. If you have melting which points at deficiencies, then blast everything - lights, CO2, ferts, the whole kaboodle. Sensibly of course. Once you get algae, then it points to an imbalance somewhere which takes a bit more investigation. The issue is of course if algae gets out of control, then you'll spend the rest of your time just battling algae. Like a case of do or die. 

Just my two cents, its probably an unpopular view these days.


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## jakkals (14 Dec 2015)

I really like this scape, I look at the last photo and I can just imagine myself as a CPD or shrimp in there having a lot of fun all day long, so many placed to hide and slopes to play on.

As for the HC Cuba growing upwards... Had the same in my 120P, it looked like the carped wanted to "lift", I kept the co2, ferts and photo period the same, but dropped the light as close to the water or plants as possible and within 2 weeks my carpet (HC Cuba) looked fantastic again making runners in all directions, algae also started to grow on the rocks by that time, so I raised the light slightly (+- 50mm) and problem was sorted with the algae and the carpet is still doing great.


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## RossMartin (14 Dec 2015)

Hi Flygja,

Yeah i'm really hammering the CO2 in the tank. It sounds like a can of Coke after it has just been opened, fizzing away! I do this for two reasons, one i have no livestock and two i can see the flow of the bubbles. I know i am going to have to reduce the amount i am injecting when i get some livestock in there. I did have my lights up to 90% and started getting some Algae so i dropped them back to 65%. I think this is about right.


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## RossMartin (14 Dec 2015)

Hi Jakkals,

You must have read my mind as i really want CPDs and shrimps in there!!!

The Cuba in the centre of the tank doesn't apper to be too happy, im thinking i might move some out in amongst the Monte Carlo to see how it does there. If it does well then i know it is something to do with the centre of the tank, maybe it is not getting enough CO2. I was thinking of adding some Cryptocoryne parva there as the conditions there might suit it better.


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## GHNelson (14 Dec 2015)

Hi Ross
Get a little propagator....as per instructions from Andy!
http://ukaps.org/forum/threads/andys-hc-propagator-step-by-step.28930/
I will send you some Monte Carlo sprigs to get started......fatten them up and replant into the aquarium!
You will have far better success with the Monte!
hoggie


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## jakkals (14 Dec 2015)

RossMartin said:


> Hi Jakkals,
> 
> You must have read my mind as i really want CPDs and shrimps in there!!!
> 
> The Cuba in the centre of the tank doesn't apper to be too happy, im thinking i might move some out in amongst the Monte Carlo to see how it does there. If it does well then i know it is something to do with the centre of the tank, maybe it is not getting enough CO2. I was thinking of adding some Cryptocoryne parva there as the conditions there might suit it better.



I have a friend here in my hometown that breeds the most amazing cpd's.
Unlike the imported ones from LFS they are not shy or skittish at all, healthy tankbred local stock. Amazing in my 60L tank...


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## alto (15 Dec 2015)

Using the L palustris as a benchmark, your lighting is lacking - it should be brilliant red & growing out of the tank by now!
 (I'm reading tank height as 30cm)

Flow should not be an issue - you've got a 1400l/h filter on a 60 x 45 x 30cm tank with not much hardscape or plant density  (sounds like you've made some adjustments you're happy with)

What's your water change schedule? - as long as significant melt (or algae etc) is occurring, continue with frequent 50% water changes.

I don't know how you're dosing the fertilizers (daily, weekly, only with water changes etc), but I'd be surprised at that small plant mass consuming anywhere near the EI amount, never mind the excess you're adding, especially given all the new ADA soil & substrate additives 



RossMartin said:


> I also add a double dosage of EasyCarbo each day



You've spent close on 6 weeks overdosing nutrients etc, why not try going a bit leaner on all these additives - at least stop the excess  

Tank is going to be amazing once you get these startup hiccups sorted


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## RossMartin (15 Dec 2015)

hogan53 said:


> Hi Ross
> Get a little propagator....as per instructions from Andy!
> http://ukaps.org/forum/threads/andys-hc-propagator-step-by-step.28930/
> I will send you some Monte Carlo sprigs to get started......fatten them up and replant into the aquarium!
> ...




That would be awesome, thank you very much Hoggie.

I already have a heated propagator in the garage so will go and get some compost. What is best for lighting at this time of year?

More than happy to pay for the sprigs so please let me know how much!

Many Thanks again

Ross


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## RossMartin (15 Dec 2015)

jakkals said:


> I have a friend here in my hometown that breeds the most amazing cpd's.
> Unlike the imported ones from LFS they are not shy or skittish at all, healthy tankbred local stock. Amazing in my 60L tank...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I saw some in my local fish shop and they just hid, i'll have to find some that aren't skittish as it would be a shame if they just hid all the time!


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## Jaap (15 Dec 2015)

Ross did you see alto's post? Its been the light all along....mine is working at 100% and things are looking better now...melting is one thing and not having growth is another


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## RossMartin (15 Dec 2015)

Hi Alto,

I did lower the lighting from 90% as I was getting Algae. My thinking was to slowly increase this over the next few weeks once I was happy that the Monte Carlo was settled.

I am doing a 50% water change every three days as I have added more ADA substrate so am mindful of the Ammonia spike.

I does the ferts daily, alternate days for Macro and Micro with none on Sundays when I do a 50% water change as well.

The reason I have been doing double was to eliminate CO2 as the issue. However i'm happy this isn't the case anymore so will decrease the doseage. I'm also being more accurate with my EI dosing!


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## RossMartin (15 Dec 2015)

Hi Jaap,

I did, i'm going to slowly increase over the next couple of weeks, maybe 2% per day and see what happens!


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## GHNelson (15 Dec 2015)

A little led would do and put the propagator on the window sill!
Cheers hoggie


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## GHNelson (15 Dec 2015)

Send me your address again Ross!


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## RossMartin (15 Dec 2015)

hogan53 said:


> Send me your address again Ross!



PM'd!


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## alto (15 Dec 2015)

RossMartin said:


> I did lower the lighting from 90% as I was getting Algae


I suspect the algae is coming from "everything" rather than just the lighting - it's fine to lower light intensity but then with the slower growth, fertilizer need will also decrease, also CO2 requirements ... for visual evidence of plant growth without excess of CO2 & fertilizers, watch the Tropica videos - while some are high filter turnover, high levels CO2, increased amounts of daily fertilizers, there are also many display tanks that run with stock tank lighting, internal filters & low CO2 ... it's really about finding the balance - which is the tricky bit 

Water change every 3 days is more in the Tropica method, ADA suggests daily large water changes upon initial startup (ie new ADA soil) so if you're reducing the water change frequency, I'd also reduce the fertilizers (water change works as a "reset" to limit buildup of fertilizers) - you can still add daily if that suits, but be careful of amounts (ADA doses very lightly in Step 1).

If you're getting much melt, then increase to daily water changes, removing as much debris from healthy plant as possible - not so easy as you don't to disrupt plant rooting (this is where shrimp are much more adept than human hands  )
If you begin to see melt on the MC, try planting separate stems rather than "clumps"

How is the L brasiliensis doing? some suggest trimming back the emerse growth to stimulate new submerse leaves - just watch for algae sneaking in on the emerse leaf.

I believe you were intending to pick up a TDS meter - can you measure daily TDS? this may give you an indication of what's happening with your fertilizer additions.

CPD hiding in the fish shop tanks is not unusual, unless shop has a suitable tank with low lighting & loads of cover & in a quiet area & no other fish (so only net incursions are for CPD) & a large enough shoal ...


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## RossMartin (15 Dec 2015)

Hi Alto,

Getting the balance is where i am struggling. I'm very cautious about increasing the lighting which i think has held me back a bit to be honest.

As i added more Aquasoil, probably an additional third of the total substrate volume i have been doing them every 3 days, just to reduce the ammonia. I want to do them every Sunday llike the EI dosing regieme suggests.

I did notice a small bit of melt today, so i removed the plants, they were fine yesterday. Photos below. They were on one clump of Monte Carlo and some Helferi to the front at the right hand side. I think i have been blocking the flow to it with a rock, so i will remove the rock. If i notice anymore i will seperate the clumps like you suggest.




 




 

The L Brasiliensis isn't doing much to be honest i'll give a trim and see how it goes.

My TDS is 240, i measured this just after the water change so i will measure it again tomorrow and then daily going forward and update the Journal.

I love CPDs, i really want about 20 in the tank with some Ottos and maybe some corys, i am mindful about overstocking the tank though!

Thanks for your suggestions!

Ross


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## alto (16 Dec 2015)

You can easily add in 25-30 CPD's - they'll appreciate the #'s

Maybe consider a dwarf cory (again they seem to be "happier" in larger groups)

For otos, you can look for some of the more exotics as well

If you're considering shrimp, tiger shrimp are excellent algae crew


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## RossMartin (17 Dec 2015)

30 CPD's would be awesome!!!

I love Panda Cory's but i think they would be too big for the size of the plants. Maybe a Pygmy Cory?

The TDS today was 257, would this be ok for tiger shrimps? I'm a newbie when it comes to shrimps!


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## RossMartin (17 Dec 2015)

How amazing are some of those ottos!? The Bumblebee is fantastic!


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## RossMartin (17 Dec 2015)

Just some update pics:

FTS


 

SIDE


 

RED! They look a lot more red than this photo, i'll see if i can get a better photo!




Unhappy Helferi


 

I think I'm going to seperate them out as they were planed in bunches!


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## Andy Thurston (18 Dec 2015)

RossMartin said:


> I love Panda Cory's but i think they would be too big for the size of the plants. Maybe a Pygmy Cory?
> 
> The TDS today was 257, would this be ok for tiger shrimps? I'm a newbie when it comes to shrimps!


I wouldn't add corys to a tank with carpet plants mine did a superb job of digging them up.

A tds of 250 is probably a bit high for tiger shrimp. Neocaridina davidi would be a better option


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## RossMartin (19 Dec 2015)

So the Helferi in the middle of the tank melted. It was under a bit of shade but was certainly getting CO2. THe Helferi at the front doesn't seem to be doing much and that is getting plenty of CO2. Does Helferi prefer harder warter??



 

Helferi at the front:


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## Jaap (19 Dec 2015)

I think it likes plenty of iron

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## RossMartin (19 Dec 2015)

Hi Jaap!

Looks like your right! I think I will add iron to my EI mix. I'll do some research to see what I need to do! I've read it is a very iron hungry plant!

Thanks Jaap!


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## RossMartin (19 Dec 2015)

Ok so I already have iron in my Chelated Trace Micro mix. I suppose I could just dose more of this!?


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## MrHidley (19 Dec 2015)

RossMartin said:


> Ok so I already have iron in my Chelated Trace Micro mix. I suppose I could just dose more of this!?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



If you're doing EI, you're already providing the maximum amount of levels that the plants can use. Perhaps you could try creating a solution and dosing directly onto the plants with a pipette? I've done this with melting S.Repens in the past and it has helped. It won't hurt to add more ferts, but i think directly dosing is more likely to have an effect.


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## RossMartin (19 Dec 2015)

Thanks Mr Hidley, that is a good idea!!


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## flygja (22 Dec 2015)

When I planted my Pogostemon helferi, they almost completely melted away. A few weeks later shoots started growing and they're doing alright now. My water's only 3 dKH.


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## RossMartin (28 Dec 2015)

So i have melting Monte Carlo, Helferi and even some Repens is struggling.

Most of the Helferi has gone. The MC has just started and i don't know why! The lights were upto 85% but i have backed them down to 65% and they have been for the past week.

The Repens doesnt seem to be doing much, some small bits of melt, but certainly no growth. I just cant work out what is going wrong and i'm starting to get pi$$ed of with this now!!!   I've had the tank for seven years now and never had any success with it.


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## RossMartin (28 Dec 2015)

My thoughts are to consider the following.

1. Change from a spraybar to a lily pipe to get the flow going from the back right of the tanks to the front right.
2. Move from an inline diffuser to a reactor....i certainly have a filter capable of running this tank with a reactor
3. Extend the lighting period from 6 hours to maybe 7 or 8
4. Change from Ei to some Neutro+ i have from Aquaesserntials
5. Jack it all in!!!!!


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## RossMartin (28 Dec 2015)

It occurs to me that none of my plants that are furthest down in the tank are growing. The Repens is three weeks in and hasn't changed. Something has to be wrong. I think I'm going to ramp the light up to 90% and see what happens. It can't do any damage as its not working anyway!


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## Jaap (29 Dec 2015)

Hi Ross

I was a firm believer that your problem was the lights from the very beginning. I have mine at 100% and its 45cm from the substrate. I would go full throttle and as I said what's the worse that could happen...your plants melt? aren't they melting already?

Go for it...nothing has worked up to know....go 100% and 40cm-45cm from the substrate! 



RossMartin said:


> It occurs to me that none of my plants that are furthest down in the tank are growing. The Repens is three weeks in and hasn't changed. Something has to be wrong. I think I'm going to ramp the light up to 90% and see what happens. It can't do any damage as its not working anyway!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## RossMartin (29 Dec 2015)

So i have gone 80% as i cannot move the light any higher I'll ramp this to 85% over the next couple of days. Lets see what happens! I'm still getting my 1 ph drop and dosing EI, so happy that i got those covered. I'm also dosing Easy Carbo at the normal doseage!

Still thinking i might go to a lily pipe and see if i can get the flow to move around the tank, but for now lets see what the increase in lights do!


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## Jaap (29 Dec 2015)

RossMartin said:


> So i have gone 80% as i cannot move the light any higher I'll ramp this to 85% over the next couple of days. Lets see what happens! I'm still getting my 1 ph drop and dosing EI, so happy that i got those covered. I'm also dosing Easy Carbo at the normal doseage!
> 
> Still thinking i might go to a lily pipe and see if i can get the flow to move around the tank, but for now lets see what the increase in lights do!


Flow is fine, nutrients are fine, co2 is fine. How far away is your light fixture from the substrate?


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## RossMartin (29 Dec 2015)

38 CM from the Monte Carlo. The substrate increases in height towards the back.


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## Jaap (29 Dec 2015)

RossMartin said:


> 38 CM from the Monte Carlo. The substrate increases in height towards the back.


Take it up to 90 and you will be fine.


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## RossMartin (30 Dec 2015)

So it looks like i am now sucessfully growing algae. Plants are showing more signs of melting.


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## Jaap (30 Dec 2015)

RossMartin said:


> So it looks like i am now sucessfully growing algae. Plants are showing more signs of melting.


When did you up the light? How many days now?


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## RossMartin (30 Dec 2015)

two days!


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## Jaap (30 Dec 2015)

RossMartin said:


> two days!


Maybe you need to give it some chance...forget about algae...concentrate on growing plants as i did...I have mine at 100% and 45cm from the substrate...


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## tim (30 Dec 2015)

Hi Ross just had another read through your thread, shame things aren't picking up yet, a couple of observations from me, you seem to change the light intensity often I would personally set the light at an intensity and leave it for at least a few weeks maybe 60-80%, maybe try the outflow that came with the filter rather than spray bar, place the in&outflow in one corner of the tank and try a circular flow pattern, point your skimmer in the same direction, at the moment your plant mass is low throw in some cheap fast growing stems, most lfs do bunches cheap get some easier plants growing and the tank stable then add in or replace the plants your not happy with, always try and wait at least a week or two after making a change to your setup to allow the plants to adjust, I'll be trimming a fair amount of hygrophillia polysperma after new year, if you want the trimmings drop me pm, keep at it mate you'll have a cracking scape in the end.


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## flygja (31 Dec 2015)

Based on George's measurement here - http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/ada-solar-i-vs-tmc-1500-ultima.27121/ the 2x Ultima 1500 puts out about 80 PAR at the substrate when hung 45cm above the water, about 45cm + 25cm above the substrate. Doing some extrapolation for your single tile being 36cm above the substrate, I'm guessing at 100% power it would be around 60-80 PAR. Should be plentiful. I'm stumped... I had very badly growing Staurogyne and Monte Carlo before. Staurogyne were losing leaves (not going transparent, just straight out dropping off) and Monte Carlo shrunk to the size of HC and did not spread for months. I managed to cure it by increasing light intensity and bumping up CO2 till dropchecker is yellow and more than 1 point of pH drop. Both started to recover. I don't know how that helps you since you've tried both.

Tim's right, you need to stick to a setting for at least 2 weeks. Plants will take some time to adapt so whatever you did in the last 1-2 weeks will only start to show symptoms now.


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## Jaap (31 Dec 2015)

So thats it! Go to 100% and stay there! You will be growing algae no doubt about it until your plants start growing and grow healthy and fill out the tank...then you will start trimming the parts where there is algae until no algae is left since new growth will not have any algae...go for it without changing anything else!

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## RossMartin (4 Jan 2016)

Hi All,

Thanks for the feedback and apologiese for the lack of updates.

It seems by following all your advise i might have turned the corner. I have left the lights at 75% and i made a change to the flow by slowing it down doing this these seems to have really helped. I'm getting a much quicker PH drop. Its currently drops 1 PH point in 50 minutes and i had it down to a 1.67 PH drop at one point! Remember no livestock. The Melt seems to have stopped and the Monte Carlo seems to be spreading!






The Helferi and repens han't done much! But that is certainly better than it melting! I might add some more in this week.

Some of my Annubias leaves are yellow. Is this because they are new or a deficiency of some sort?





I also need an idea of some plants that i can put in the middle under the branches as this is bare at the moment. Any ideas?









Many Thanks

Ross


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## aaron.c (4 Jan 2016)

I feel your pain Ross. Seems like we are in the same camp!! Glad to hear you are turning a corner. Keep us posted 


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## flygja (5 Jan 2016)

Watch the yellowing anubias a bit. It might be iron deficiency, or it might be some sorta color morphing. I have anubias barteri var nana  that had some very pleasant yellow marbling effect develope over time.


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## RossMartin (5 Jan 2016)

Will do Aaron, I'm sure yours will pick up too!!




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## RossMartin (5 Jan 2016)

Hi Flygja,

Ironically, no pun intended I added some iron in to see if it helped! This is barteri var nana so it will be interesting to see if it is a deficiency or just colouring!


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## Andy Thurston (5 Jan 2016)

hi ross,

the new growth on the monte carlo looks very good! it should form a dense carpet very quickly now that conditions are good. leave your tank alone and see how everything else does, let all the plants acclimatize to the tanks conditions, if the carpet is growing then everything else should settle and catch up. I think that quite a few people struggle because they keep changing things, too often, rather than letting nature do its thing.


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## aaron.c (6 Jan 2016)

Hey Ross

To summarise, you upped light and reduced flow?

Did you make any changes to fertilisation regime?

Thanks 


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## RossMartin (6 Jan 2016)

Hi Aaron,

Yes thats right, however i do believe it was adjusting the flow that was the main reason, however i can't be 100% sure as i adjusted the lighting and reduced the flow at the same time.  I did have the lights up at 90% but i had issues with algae so dropping it to 75% has helped reduce the algae. I also do a 50% water change on Sunday as per EI but also on Wednesday.

I'm constantly learning as i go and as others have mentioned above only change one thing. If you adjust the flow you might get better performance (for want of a better word) from your CO2. If this doesn't help adjust your light or change the flow again. Give it a good five days to see if anything changes. Also i do think i should have planned what plants went where, as the hardscape can block the water.

One good thing that Ceg suggested earlier in this journal, is get some of your micro powders and sprinkle some in at the front of the tank so you can see where the powder goes. It might be that CO2 isn't getting to the plants and you can tell this by the powder. Do this on a water change day as i ended up putting quite a bit in! Also if you have no fish crank the CO2 up. My tank sounded like a just opened can of coke but i could also see what the bubbles were doing!

This may sound silly and i have no scientific proof of this, but by reducing the flow i think i am giving the CO2 more time in contact with the leaves. I wonder if the high flow was moving away any co2 bubbles that had settled under a leaf. From doing some reading it seems people are saying that the micro bubbles being in contact with the leaf is better than 100% co2 saturation in the water. However by reducing the flow i am allowing the CO2 to be in the filter for longer and therefore increasing saturatin so maybe i have the best of both worlds now?! 

I should be dosing 16ml of macros and micros , however i was dosing 30ml as i as being lazy as i have one of those squeezy bottles that fills up the measurement cup at the top. I dropped this back to between 16ml and 20ml but that was a couple of weeks before i did the above.

I hope this helps!

Thanks

Ross


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## RossMartin (6 Jan 2016)

Hi all,

So i have dropped the amount of CO2 i was pumping into the tank. I was getting a PH drop of 1.8 so have dialled it down a bit. I'm at home the next few days so i can monitor it and so can you http://pi.aquapi.co.uk/. I would like to add some livestock in the next few days/weeks and i know that this is excessive, i'm still aiming to get the 1 point PH drop.

Here is the annubias. I'm thinking deficiency.


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## RossMartin (6 Jan 2016)

Or burning from the light??


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## RossMartin (7 Jan 2016)

Hi All,

I'm in the process of fine tuning the CO2, by that i mean reducing the amount i am injecting to a sensible level as i was getting a 1.8PH drop by lights on. I think i have found that i need to have 4 bubbles per second to get a 1 point PH drop. My water Ph is around 7.6 and my KH is around 14. With that in mind if you look at the graph below this means i need to be aiming for a ph of 7.2.

My question is, are these graphs reliable?



 
Thanks

Ross


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## Andy Thurston (7 Jan 2016)

Hi Ross

Don't forget that that table doesn't account for other things in the tank that affect pH and will underestimate the co2 concentration. I would aim for 7.1as a starting point and see how your fish/plants do. If you need to reduce the co2 then do it slowly so the plants have time to adapt.
Let the tank fill in a bit more before you add fish, the more plant mass you have the better IMO.


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## RossMartin (7 Jan 2016)

Thanks Andy!

So today i started at a ph of 7.57 and got all the way down to 6.19, but it takes and hour and 55 minutes to drop 1 ph point. So five minutes before light on. I'll look to decrease to two bubbles a second and see what this does. Fortunately i am at home tomorrow so i can monitor this.

I do need to get some more plants. I'm really not sure what to put in the middle under the branches. I'll have a look at what others have done but if you have any ideas then let me know!

Cheers

Ross


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## RossMartin (8 Jan 2016)

So i reduced the CO2 injection today whilst i was at home.

I measured by tank KH and this was 11.....although this was an API test kit so i wouldn't say this is gospel!

When my CO2 started the PH was: 7.76, at lights on this was: 6.96 and it got down to 6.58. However my Drop Checker never went green, it has been blue all day. I calibrated my PH probe a couple of days ago with a three point calibration and i can confirm my cheap PH pen measures the same PH as my probe.

I have changed the 4dkH just in case this was the issue and i have put a second drop checker in as well on the opposite side of the tank. I'm also dosing EasyCarbo at 2.0ml when i should be dosing 1.6ml.

So should i go on the PH or drop checker?! 

Cheers

Ross


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## flygja (11 Jan 2016)

pH probe is always more accurate if its calibrated properly. But as Andy mentioned, it measures everything that can influence pH, including organic acids from decomposition, etc. To double check, get a sample of water at pH 6.58, shake it in a jar or leave for for an hour for CO2 to degass, then check pH again. That's your "true" pH drop. Don't know why your dropchecker isn't changing colours, is the bromo blue expired? Try checking it with some lemon/orange juice or vinegar and see. 

Really glad to see your MC is spreading, you're well on your way to figuring out this kaboodle  Could you share a bit more information about your aquarium monitor? I'm guessing it uses a raspberry pi? Can you share the setup?


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## aaron.c (26 Jan 2016)

How are you getting on Ross


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## MrHidley (26 Jan 2016)

I would also like to know about your pi setup.


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## RossMartin (28 Jan 2016)

Hi All,

Been extremley busy so will update this tomorrow, but the tank is OK. I have a Monte Carlo carpet which is positive and the rest of the plants appear to be doing well. Think i need to add a clean-up crew as am getting a small amount of algae...nothing serious though!

I'll also show you and explain the Pi setup as well!!

Thanks

Ross


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## aaron.c (28 Jan 2016)

Good news! Look forward to it 


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## RossMartin (29 Jan 2016)

Hi All,

So here it is at the moment. It is need of a bit of a prune but i've been really busy so not had the chance but i will do on Sunday.



 



 



 



 


As you can see some algae growing on the glass and on some of the Monte Carlo. I've not got a clean up crew in here so i plan to add some Cherry Shrimps (not sure on how many yet) and i have six Ottos in a quarantine tank that i have had for about two months. They are nice and fat as i have been giving them some cucumber every now and again. I'll add them in at somepoint next week when i can be at home to see if they are ok with the CO2.


Regarding the Raspberry Pi this is it at the moment!



 

It is a Raspberry Pi 2 and it uses a waterproof thermometer for the tank readings....i'm going to add another at some point as it is easy to do. The white block at the bottom left is a thermometer and a humidity sensor. The plan for this was to put it in the cabinet so if something leaks the humidity would rise and i could be alerted.

The PH is monitored by an Atlas PH sensor and probe (that is the BNC connection).

Its quite basic. I have written a python script that runs every five minutes that logs all the values into a MySQL Database. I then have an apache web server that i am using to show the data on the website and this is programmed using PHP. On the Web page the PHP pulls the values from the SQL Database to create the graphs. The live information is pulled from the sensors using a PHP script that runs every two seconds and it goes and get live values. The pi and sensors cost about £75...the Atlas PH Circuit was £120 puls £15 for customs.

I plan on adding a conductivity sensor so i can get the TDS of the tank. However when i initially looked the PH and conductivity circuits can't easily work together...when i get some time i will find out why and see what i can do. I haven't touched this project for well over eleven months hencve why it isn't in a nice project box (To be honest i can't find a decent one for this!)

Any questions please just ask!

Thanks

Ross


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## MrHidley (30 Jan 2016)

I love the Raspberry Pi, such a versatile little piece of kit. Congrats on getting past your early struggles with the tank, really seems to be balancing out now.


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## Jaap (30 Jan 2016)

Whats the light intensity?

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## RossMartin (31 Jan 2016)

Hi Mr Hidley,

Yeah it is a great piece of kit! I have another one running Kodi. It is awesome.

Hi Jaap, I'm running it at 80%


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## AndreiD (1 Mar 2016)

Any updates on this journal ? how is Monte Carlo doing ?


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## Greenfinger2 (16 Sep 2016)

Hi Ross, Any updates mate


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