# Hi and some questions



## angelah (3 Jan 2011)

Just joined... I found the site when using a Google search for info about Green Tiger Barbs.

Went to the Welcome thread but it seems to be Locked...

So a quick history before the questions start: I had tanks about 15 years ago but had to give up due to work pressure. yes, I had to work for a living with a disabled hubby...
So I am returning to the fold. 
Why? Am about to move from London to Wales so thought I should have something else to do other than sit gawping at a PC screen all day now that my partner has passed over due to cancer.
As we had them before I thought it would be nice and a kind of memory to start again. So bought a Rome 240 'kit' (as they are called) and a second JBL CristalProfi e 900 to ensure excellent filtration (the kit came with a Fluval 305).
Also got a Juwel Korall Tropical that is running a fishless cycle right now. I put this up and ran it so I could (a) put plants in it ready for the move and (b) see how the fishless cycle worked as 'way back when' that was never heard of. There were no forums either so we are spoilt for choice now. Glad I found this one, even by accident, although I am on some others as well.
Planned stocking once the 240 is cycled is still all up in the air, in other words I can't make my mind up - typical woman!
I had originally fancied Tiger Barbs as one school of fish with Danios and Neons, planned about 15 Barbs, but was put off them because it's said they are troublesome in a peaceful community tank. However, and having done a lot of Googling (thank goodness for the Internet although I am going Google-eyed) it seems this may not always be the case provided they are kept in numbers. Is 12-15 sufficient numbers?
But I think size counts too (no snacky comments please!), so my original idea of Neons and Zebra Danios may go out of the window and instead get only Cardinals which are slightly bigger and may be better suited to life with a Tiger of some sort. A large school would look good, say around 20. Then I saw Green Tiger Barbs and they are sooooo tempting.
Of course the Barbs could be swapped for Black Widow Tetras, an all Tetra tank might look quite good.
The strata would be looked after by Corydoras, proably a mix of the smaller ones like Pandas ect.

So what do you think? Any views, comments and/or ideas would be most welcome.

Angela


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## RudeDogg1 (3 Jan 2011)

Welcome to the fold

One thing to bare in mind with tiger barbs is they are buggers for fin nipping. So if you intend to get anything with trailing fins or slow moving id give them a miss

Rudi


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## angelah (3 Jan 2011)

RudeDogg1 said:
			
		

> Welcome to the fold
> 
> One thing to bare in mind with tiger barbs is they are buggers for fin nipping. So if you intend to get anything with trailing fins or slow moving id give them a miss
> 
> Rudi



Hi Rudi,
Cheers for a welcome.
You may have seen I was thinking about Zebra Dannios in the tank and Cardinal Tetras. Are they okay with Barbs to about 3 inches? Danios are pretty fast as are Cardinals when they want to be, and neither have large fins.
Just trying to size fish that match so if Danios are a bit on the small side (about 5cm = 2 inches I think) they could be discarded as a possible.

Angela


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## RudeDogg1 (3 Jan 2011)

tiger barbs get pretty big so if your trying to get stuff that kind of matches size wise they might get to big.


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## angelah (3 Jan 2011)

RudeDogg1 said:
			
		

> tiger barbs get pretty big so if your trying to get stuff that kind of matches size wise they might get to big.



Yes, I saw it says about 2 3/4 inches, which would be bigger than Cardinals certainly.
In that Case what about the Black Widow Tetras?
My plan is also about colour contrasts, red Cardinals and black other fish would contrast nicely.

Thanks again,

Angela


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## ceg4048 (3 Jan 2011)

Hello Angela,
                    Welcome to the forum. I'm sorry to hear of your loss. That couldn't have been easy to deal with but I admire your courage and I think it's a great idea to honor his memory with the tank.

It's not really clear from your post whether your tank will be CO2 enriched or not. You need to decide which path you intend to follow. One method is low maintenance while the enriched path  requires high maintenance.

Additionally, a planted tank do not require the technique of fishless cycling. If I were you I would learn how to grow plants first and delay the introduction of the fish, especially if you intend to enrich CO2.

See more on fishless cycling by clicking on this link ==> Fishless cycling and EI dosing

Cheers,


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## RudeDogg1 (3 Jan 2011)

lol didnt see ud put there size cardinals and danios should be fine btw


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## RudeDogg1 (3 Jan 2011)

black widows should be ok personaly I find them a little dull


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## angelah (3 Jan 2011)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Hello Angela,
> Welcome to the forum. I'm sorry to hear of your loss. That couldn't have been easy to deal with but I admire your courage and I think it's a great idea to honor his memory with the tank.
> 
> It's not really clear from your post whether your tank will be CO2 enriched or not. You need to decide which path you intend to follow. One method is low maintenance while the enriched path  requires high maintenance.
> ...



Hi and thanks for the hello,
Although Alan and I used to have tanks, a 4 footer and several 2 footers, everything seems to have changed since then. Filters seem to be more efficient and now we have the option of internal or external. And then all the other bits, like the Co2 setups that abound.
My plan (A) was to plant the tank fairly well and try to balance it that way rather than go downt he Co2 route. That should be possible, shouldn't it? In Wales where it will eventually be set up the water is quite soft.
But if things go pear-shaped then I would consider installing a system. I just have to get this move over first really, it is all very stressful for a lady who is approaching 73....
The tank is a Roma 240L 'kit', so has a base cabinet with it and a Fluval 305 external. I would stay with externals and have already ordered a second, a JBL CristalProfi e 900 to increase both filtration and water flow as I don't think the 305 is quite man enough, although the manufacturers say it is suitable, there'sa nothing wrong with a bit extra. The JBL filter also has different media so I have more options immediately available. Should any carbon media come out?
The Juwel Korall that is cycling at the mo will be a quantine tank.

And yes, these will be (I hope) a living memorial to a wonderful man.

Angela


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## angelah (3 Jan 2011)

Right, just had a ganders at that lot and I see the point.
What I can get is a good filter squeeze from my son's tank as he already lives where I shall be moving (but not the same house) so I shall have to move the water squeeze about half a mile.
Would that be enough with the plants instead of using this new idea of ammonia?

Angela


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## RudeDogg1 (3 Jan 2011)

the ammonia is a food source for the friendly bacteria (wich will come from the fish poo and wee once they are in) I still used it to cycle mine infact im still using it even tho im cycled because it will be a few weeks befor my discus are in the contry. Gives the plants time to be nice and strong


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## angelah (3 Jan 2011)

RudeDogg1 said:
			
		

> the ammonia is a food source for the friendly bacteria (wich will come from the fish poo and wee once they are in) I still used it to cycle mine infact im still using it even tho im cycled because it will be a few weeks befor my discus are in the contry. Gives the plants time to be nice and strong



Hi Rudi,
There are many conflicting views about how to cycle a tank nowadays, all very confusing for me as it was a fish cycle when I had tank previously. Mind you, there were no forums and indeed no Internet much then. I can see the point of not using and stressing fish, but also the point that an empty tank with plants and maybe fish food added, would have a similar effect.
I have been reading about the types of bacteria needed and how they establsih in the fishless cycle, that's why I am practicing on an empty tank to see how it works, so understand the need to create the ammonia eating bacteria that then converts that into nitrite, and then the nitrite consuming bacteria form and convert that to nitrate. It's a slow process and it seems cannot be rushed.
Will a media squeeze work with the ammonia or not then? Gets confusing...
Or will the media squeeze and plants be sufficient without any chemicals or maybe Waterlife Biomature starter?
It seems I have at least two options that don't include fish.

Angela


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## RudeDogg1 (3 Jan 2011)

trouble with using food for ammonia is it takes alot of food to get it to 4ppm so ammonia is a cleaner more effiant source. Media squeaze will be better than a bought filter aid aslong as its from a desease free tank


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## RudeDogg1 (3 Jan 2011)

you would need 12.63ml of ammonia for your tank the homebase household ammonia is what most people use


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## RudeDogg1 (3 Jan 2011)

it does take a while for a fishless cycle it is sped up by it being a planted tank but still takes 3 - 4 weeks. All you do is set the tank up fill it up get everything running and planted add the ammonia. Leave it a week or so then test for ammonia and nitrIte. What you want it to do is the ammonia to start to drop and nitrite to rise. When ammonia is 0 add the same amount again (should take 24 hours to vanish again) every time its zero re add. Nitrites should go off the scale affter a while then start to drop then your Nitrate will start to rise. in an unplanted take nitrate should go off the scale but the plants use some of it mine never went past 40 ppm. Nitrate will level out and nitrite and ammonia should be zero then ur done. Then you just do a 100% waterchange or near as 100% u can go and add your first fish within 24 hours. Hope this helps


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## RudeDogg1 (3 Jan 2011)

Allso your going to need some sort of co2 added wether it be easycarbo or a preasurised system


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## angelah (3 Jan 2011)

RudeDogg1 said:
			
		

> Allso your going to need some sort of co2 added wether it be easycarbo or a preasurised system



What is Easycarb please?

Angela


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## Angus (3 Jan 2011)

basically you can add the media 'squeeze' as soon as you add the ammonia, as the product of the 'squeeze' is mainly bacteria that are made for the nitrogen cycle, ie nitrifying bacteria, they will live in the filter medium and convert ammonia to nitrite then to nitrate, in a conventional fishless cycle, you add the ammonia to build up the presence of these bacteria, then with test kits test levels of ammonia and nitrite, wait for these to hit 0 then add a small amount of fish, monitor the levels again and if they are elevated perform water changes, then wait for them to hit 0 again before adding more fish.

 the way you were going to do it is fine, if you can 'seed' the filter with mature bacteria or mulm, or even better some mature ceramic media, then you should be able to add a very small amount of fish immediately but you have to watch the test kits like a hawk and perform water changes as needed.

i would say the ammonia method is better than this as once filter media is in a non moving sealed water container for more than 6 hours it starts to die as it needs plenty of oxygen.

as far as plants go, theres really 2 main methods, High-tech and Low-tech.

High tech is essentially, light of 2 wpg (watts per gallon) or over, CO2 injection to 30 PPM, high filtration of 10x or more of tanks volume, use a daily dosing regime, theres a lot of them around from ready made products which are reasonably expensive, to dry powders which you can either make into your own solutions or just dose dry from measuring spoons,
use of a nutrient rich substrate, many choose to do this as it gives you a buffer to problems if you know you might miss a fertiliser dose during the week, but its not wholly neccesary in the high tech method as you are aiming to have nutrients readily available in the water column, you want really dense planting of 80/90% of the substrate from the start, and you do daily water changes for the first week then one every weekend after that. High-Tech tanks generally have a low stocking density when it comes to fish, that is essentially high-tech but theres a lot of different takes on the method.

Low-Tech is essentially light of under 2wpg, no CO2 injection, filtration needs to be strong still but your not trying to blow CO2 around the tank and get it to the plants so it isnt as imperitive, most low tech tanks use a light dosing regime but you can also use the powders i mentioned above, use of a nutrient rich substrate is essential as this is where the plants are going to get a lot of their nutrients in a low tech setup, a lot of people use a specialist substrate capped with either gravel or sand in low tech's but you can also use the higher tech aquasoils as they provide the same function without the need for 2 messy layers, you want to plant densely but it isnt as important in low-tech as you have more room for error with algae and more time to react to problems, you want to be doing water changes every week if your dosing EI on a low tech, but if your using the fish as the nutrient provider you want to do a water change every month, Low-tech tanks relying on fish waste tend to have a higher fish stock than a high-tech tank of the same size.

obviously in low tech tanks you can only grow so many varieties of plant, as some are very demanding of light and nutrients, in high-tech there is pretty much no limits depending on your set-up.

one think i would recommend is reading all the articles on this site as they are very helpful,

and do consider making a DIY water change system, as i imagine you cant lug buckets around, its alright for us young boys on here  http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=1729  <--waterchanger

Regards, Gus.

*edit* 1 more thing check out www.theplantedtank.co.uk it has an immense amount of information on planted tanks.


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## RudeDogg1 (3 Jan 2011)

angelah said:
			
		

> RudeDogg1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Its basicly a liquid co2 addative for low tech tanks

Rudi


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## angelah (3 Jan 2011)

Thank you all, quite an amazing response!
It will be the low tech way then, at least that would be my target. The Hitech sounds far too complicated. 
EasyCarb is available at the local FS?

What about Waterlife Biomature? Does that do a similar thing?

I also seemed to have missed something, what is El, or should that be what the el...! Ha ha.

Angela


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## RudeDogg1 (3 Jan 2011)

I would not bother with the bottled filter starters biomature ect they are rubish.

If you go low tech make sure you choose plants that dont need lots of co2. Im not sure if you could find easycarb localy but a couple of our sponsors sell it aquaessentials for one.

EI is a dry fertilising method thats another thing you will need to decide how your going to feed the plants


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## Angus (3 Jan 2011)

ei is estimative index its a way of dosing the nutrients pottassium nitrate, potassium phosphate, and a chelated trace element mix into a tank (the powders i talked about before), easy carbo is not like any bio maturing product, its a carbon based additive for the growth of plants and its a slight aligicide too, you can add this product to a low tech instead of injecting CO2.

the bio maturing products are pretty much a con in my opinion, they have very little substance to them, your better off with the media 'squeeze'

you probably wont get easycarbo at the LFS you have to order from online, but the sponsors on the forum have it in stock.


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## angelah (3 Jan 2011)

RudeDogg1 said:
			
		

> I would not bother with the bottled filter starters biomature ect they are rubish.
> 
> If you go low tech make sure you choose plants that dont need lots of co2. Im not sure if you could find easycarb localy but a couple of our sponsors sell it aquaessentials for one.
> 
> EI is a dry fertilising method thats another thing you will need to decide how your going to feed the plants



Okay Rudi,
if I can but online then that's fine and even better off the forum, like the Aquassentials people.

So the other is plant food. Is that a liquid or pellet?

Loads of questions.... sorry about that.

Angela


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## RudeDogg1 (3 Jan 2011)

EI is all the eliments in dry form which you mix with water and add daily which can also be bought from several of our sponsors. Currently Im using tropica plant nutrition + which is a liquid food but once ive used my 2 bottles up Im switching to the TFF mix from our sponsore aquariumplantfood uk (one of our sponsors). The tropica stuff is good but quite expensive and you need to tripple the recomended does realy


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## angelah (3 Jan 2011)

Thanks for all that Rudi,
Has cleared things up no end for me. I am now more than interested in this empty (apart from gravel) 2 foot tank that's cycling, it will be interesting to see how long it takes. Didn't get the ammonia until the 29th but it was running well before that. I expect the addition of ammonia has just restarted the whole cycle again so it will be a while before that level begins to go down. If it does I top it up again on a daily basis.

Cheers for all your help,

Angela


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## RudeDogg1 (3 Jan 2011)

12.63 ml will get u to the correct level of 4ppm good luck with it keep us updated.

Check out my set up journal


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## sanj (4 Jan 2011)

Hello Angelah,

I think I saw some of your posts on the PFK forum or another one?

Anyway welcome back to the hobby and a group of tiger barbs of the number you were thinking would be great. They will confine most of their antics within thier own species.

The only thing i find disappointing with the orignal form in your average LFS is that they have become somewhat grubby with marks inbetween their lines. I see more of these than the good qulity ones with nice clean black stripes.


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## RudeDogg1 (4 Jan 2011)

I know what you mean sanj I noticed that in ma at the weekend they have started to look like the green ones. When I had my first saturday job when i was about 15 they looked totally different and clean and allways seemed smaller than they are now


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## angelah (5 Jan 2011)

RudeDogg1 said:
			
		

> I know what you mean sanj I noticed that in ma at the weekend they have started to look like the green ones. When I had my first saturday job when i was about 15 they looked totally different and clean and allways seemed smaller than they are now



Actually I quite like those Green Barbs, they would offset the colours of the other fish nicely. 15 or so would look good. The only snag with that is it means the other more streamlined fishes will need to be bigger, certainly bigger than Neon Tetras I should think, they only get to about 1.5 inches (40cm). This would again restrict the numbers, I wanted a nice big school....

And you may have noticed I bought the second filter. Not from where I ordered it, they were messing me about and I don't like that from a shop, they took my money and didn't even have the filter in stock...!!

So told them to cancel. Sorted about on the Internet but not many places stock the JBL externals. However and off the top of my head, I phoned my LFS (MA) and they had one in a sale. Not the e 900 I was going to buy for 89 quid, but the CristalProfi e 1500 for 99. So for an extra tenner got 1500 lph instead of 900.... can't be bad.
Must say these German filters are very well made and thought out, even has carry handles on the top for lifting the motor head off.
So this and the Fluval 305 should give a really good flow. Snag now is where do I set the inputs? And which inputs? I have either venturi or spray bars. And along the back or at an end?
The reason I made the last distinction is that some (in fact most) of the fish are long and thin so I assume that means they live in a reasonable water flow environment. If the flow is coming from the back of the tank then won't they point that way? Where as if it came from and end they will swim with their sides to the front glass.... just theories dearies, I have been thinking about.

Angela


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## Angus (5 Jan 2011)

you want the spraybars to cover the whole length of the back of the tank just under the waterline if possible, set the inlets up at either end that way they will pick up more detritus.

venturis arent really a good idea as they create excess aeration which you are looking to avoid in a low tech.

glad to hear you got the 1500lph model as all filters push around a lot less water than the rated flow. 

one thing i would say about the green tiger barbs (ive kept normal and green) is that they do get slightly larger and thick set, and tend to be even more aggresive, they would pick at my serpae tetras fins, and serpae's are meant to be a very boistrous small fish that is good for putting with nipping species (as they are one themselves) when i kept serpaes and green TB's together the serpaes seemed to be very shy and retiring not anything like when i had them by themselves, and the green tiger barbs ruled the tank. i would say steer clear of anything that isnt over 2 inches with greens, even cardinals would be a risk.

hope you have been doing your homework on low tech style tanks too angelah! hehe.

Regards, Gus.


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## GHNelson (5 Jan 2011)

Hi Angela
Welcome to the ukaps gang.
If you had access to a relatives or friends aquarium you could use half of their filter media to kick start your aquarium.
Regards
hoggie


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## angelah (5 Jan 2011)

hogan53 said:
			
		

> Hi Angela
> Welcome to the ukaps gang.
> If you had access to a relatives or friends aquarium you could use half of their filter media to kick start your aquarium.
> Regards
> hoggie



I have a son with a big tank but unfortunately it has BBA in it, a lot of it, so I am very unsure about squeezing any media out of that.

Angela


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## RudeDogg1 (5 Jan 2011)

Can't go far wrong with german filters eheims r the best tho


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## angelah (6 Jan 2011)

RudeDogg1 said:
			
		

> Can't go far wrong with german filters eheims r the best tho



This is certainly a nice bit of kit, no mistake about it. Never had an Eheim though, just Fluvals previously.
A Fluval 305 will also be used in the 4 foot tanl along with this JBL, more flow.
As has been suggested and if I fit both filters at one end, there may well be a need for a submersible pump part way along to help the flow get to the parts others can't... you must know the words for that lager advert... lol.

Angela


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## bazz (6 Jan 2011)

hi angelah,
i personally don't think it is set in concrete that you need to have your spraybars along the back of your tank seeing as you're going low tech. its your tank and you are the one that has to find it aesthetically pleasing. you could toy with the idea of having both inlets at one end of the tank and both spraybars at the other end giving you a river/stream kind of effect, you could even place the smaller one (concealed) at ground level giving you some flow across the substrate, or any other scenario you might fancy that allows you to view your plants and fish in the way that you want to.
in my eyes, the only thing you would need would to do is gravel vac maybe 20% of different areas of the substrate once a month or so and replace the expelled water with fresh, add a lean dose of nutrient perhaps once a week or fortnight and the golden rule, keep the lighting well down.
don't make it any more hard work than you're prepared to put in, otherwise it just becomes a chore!
just my 2 cents,
cheers and good luck,
bazz!


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## JayUK (8 Jan 2011)

Hi Angela ,

With regards to fish selection alot of speicies suffer not just from fin nipping by tiger barbs
but also come 2nd best when feeding time comes , tigers are vigorous feeders abeit nice
fish . 
Take a look at   Melanotaenia praecox - Neon Dwarf Rainbowfish . Ive kept these a few times 
they grow to around the same size , shoal well ,  and hold their own at feeding time .
The plus side is they show their best colours...which look quite spectacular...in well planted
low light/low tec set-ups .
Sounds like you have a while to choose yet , so plenty of time to decide but definately worth
considering to house alongside tiger barbs .

Good luck

Jay .


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## angelah (8 Jan 2011)

JayUK said:
			
		

> Hi Angela ,
> 
> With regards to fish selection alot of speicies suffer not just from fin nipping by tiger barbs
> but also come 2nd best when feeding time comes , tigers are vigorous feeders abeit nice
> ...



Hi Jay,
I have decided to dump all Barbs, they seem trouble wherever you look.
So my next option was a Tetra tank with Lemons and Neons and 10-12 Corydoras on the bottom. I have looked at Rainbows because this is a large tank at 4 feet with good depth and width so will take another school of something or other, but they need to be a smallish fish to match the others. 
Rainbows were a choice I have been considering and they may well be on the shopping list. I can always adjust the sizes of the other 2 mid-water schools slightly as I want to keep plenty of leeway in the tank, not near to capacity in other words, even though it will be double filtered and heavily planted. Err on the safe side, it is always tempting to stock to maximum levels but I personally think it is a mistake.

Angela


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## JayUK (10 Jan 2011)

Hi Angela ,

Sometimes its wise to re-think , alot depends on the type of tetra you
want to keep not all will shoal in a tight group . Ive not kept lemon or
(believe it or not) neons , in almost 17yrs of fishkeeping . African
cichlids were my thing , but ive got 10 purple emperor tetra's and
they shoal for around 2 mins a day...feeding time...then disperse 
everywhere .

But i am a fan of Nannostomus trifasciatus - Three-lined Pencilfish ,
only have a group of 5 but they stick together all day , very peaceful
and when their in a planted tank are little gems , size is 2ins max .
Dont , like most fish, look good in dealers tanks but when in a planted 
tank start to colour up , they display a gold stripe which really stands 
out . Im considering changing my emperors for 10 of these because
i like the tight shoal , so 1 worth taking a peek at .

Jay .


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