# Substrate Requirements/Suitable Products



## jaypeecee (23 Dec 2019)

Hi Folks,

In my line of work, I often needed to produce a specification that listed all the features, attributes, parameters, etc. when procuring/purchasing a new product. I learned how important it was to be clear in my mind exactly what was required to meet the needs of the task in hand. So, I still adopt that mindset when making new purchases. But I don't go overboard when buying a new shirt, for example!

With the above in mind, I started to work through the 60 pages of substrate threads here on UKAPS. But, then, I realized that I didn't really know what was required of a substrate. Here's a few that come to mind:

[1] Something that anchors plants (roots) in place.

[2] Should have a high cation exchange capacity (CEC).

[3] What nutrients should it provide, if any?

[4] Does it need to have an open structure to allow for aeration?

[5] Should it contain organic material, e.g. humic substances (HS) or be inert?

[6] For how long will it release any ammonia, nitrates, phosphates, etc. into the water column?

[7] How many layers of different materials can I accommodate or is one layer sufficient?

[8] Must not be abrasive to bottom-dwelling fish, e.g. Corydoras

[9] Must not need changing for at least five years.

[10] What colour(s) should it be?

[11] How much am I prepared to pay?

[12] How easy will it be to vacuum the surface of the substrate?

Please feel free to add to this list. Then, comes the tricky bit - deciding on suitable products. All suggestions welcome!

JPC


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## zozo (23 Dec 2019)

My 5 cents on it except 10 and 11, don't worry too much about the rest. 

CEC is more of an issue with terrestrial botany. In aquatic systems the water-column can/will provide all it needs.

Same for Nutrients, if water column provides since the tank is flooded obviously these nutrients drain into the substrate.

Inert substrate initially can not leach anything, hence it is inert.

Humic substances are essential for a healthy aquatic system, can be added on top if it's not in the substrate.

Plant roots are rather adaptive, up to a microscopic level with rhizoids, as long there are nutrients you can grow plants on glass marbles or solely in the water without substrate.

Open structures eventually can/will clog with detritus. In some cases, it can form an issue and in other cases it can work as a benefit. For example, deep sand substrates, some advise against, others swear by it. So it's a ?? nobody really knows a valid answer for.



A lot of it comes down to personal experiences. And in a lot of cases, personal experiences are percieved  as something universally applicable. Obviously that's far from the truth.


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## Tim Harrison (23 Dec 2019)

I'm not going to add to your list but ADA AS or Tropica AS will meet most requirements. 
I'm guessing that the R&D departments of both companies had a list very similar to yours...


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## jaypeecee (23 Dec 2019)

zozo said:


> In aquatic systems the water-column can/will provide all it needs.
> 
> Plant roots are rather adaptive, up to a microscopic level with rhizoids, as long there are nutrients you can grow plants on glass marbles or solely in the water without substrate.



Hi @zozo 

Thanks a lot. From my list of 12 items, it would appear that your two statements above are all-important. So, if I understand you correctly, the main requirement of the substrate is item [1], i.e. something that anchors plants (roots) in place. All other requirements can be provided by fertilizers/nutrients in the water column. Am I correct? If so, why bother with all these 'exotic' substrate materials?

As regards the terminology that I used in my original post, I use the term 'substrate' to mean all the layers that sit on the bottom of the tank as inferred in item [7]. That could be an 'active' bottom layer covered by a 'cosmetic' top layer.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (23 Dec 2019)

Tim Harrison said:


> I'm not going to add to your list but ADA AS or Tropica AS will meet most requirements...



Hi @Tim Harrison 

Thanks very much for your feedback. I see that Tropica AS "lowers the pH value and slightly affects the water chemistry". This concerns me a tad - in what way does it affect water chemistry? I don't like surprises!

JPC


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## Tim Harrison (23 Dec 2019)

The blurb says it's rich in organic acids and nutrients etc. And it's been used by many folk for many years with great success so I doubt there's any cause for concern. Either way I like it because it's a great planting medium.


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## zozo (24 Dec 2019)

jaypeecee said:


> If so, why bother with all these 'exotic' substrate materials?



It's next to marketing a personal preference and believing in it and feeling comfortable about it does the rest.   But if you put 10 bags of different substrate materials next to each other then each label on the bag says it's Excellent substrate. And then people creat excellent planted aquascapes on Kitty Litter. And that bag doesn't say anything at all about being an excellent plant substrate, but it seems to be. 

Simply pick one that fits your budget and is aesthetically pleasing to you. And for the rest, concerns are, it should be practical for what you like to create. For example, would you like a scape with high elevated substrate parts, then sand only might not be the best choice? 

Then what are your plans about planting? Would you like to grow a carpet with small plants? Than a fine-grained substrate at that part is easier to penetrate and more gentle to the small delicate plants with handling them.

Thus from that viewpoint, creating layers of different types of substrates can be practical. If you like to create elevations in the substrate then a coarser grain is easier kept in place. Do you want small carpet plants on this elevated part? Then cap that coarse material again with a finer grain substrate that is easier on the plants.


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## jaypeecee (24 Dec 2019)

Tim Harrison said:


> The blurb says it's rich in organic acids and nutrients etc. And it's been used by many folk for many years with great success so I doubt there's any cause for concern. Either way I like it because it's a great planting medium.



Hi @Tim Harrison 

That sounds good. Do you top it off with a layer of gravel, for example?

JPC


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## Conort2 (24 Dec 2019)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Tim Harrison
> 
> That sounds good. Do you top it off with a layer of gravel, for example?
> 
> JPC


You just use it as it comes, don’t rinse it or anything like you would with gravel. I’d recommend the slightly more expensive powder versions, even easier to plant in and your corydoras will be able to root about in it much like sand. 

cheers

Conor


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## jaypeecee (24 Dec 2019)

Conort2 said:


> You just use it as it comes, don’t rinse it or anything like you would with gravel. I’d recommend the slightly more expensive powder versions, even easier to plant in and your corydoras will be able to root about in it much like sand.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Conor



Hi @Conort2 

Thanks for that. Sounds like the powder version is the way to go.

JPC


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## Tim Harrison (24 Dec 2019)

Powder is quite a bit more expensive and usually used at the front or in small tanks to create a sense of perspective, and powder is perhaps a little easier to plant in especially for carpet plants. Normal size AS is used elsewhere. Alternatively, some folk use a layer of normal capped with a layer of powder, that is at the front. If you decide to do the latter make sure you're happy with the hardscape first since any rearranging will mix the two up and ruin the effect.


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## Oldguy (24 Dec 2019)

jaypeecee said:


> buying a new shirt



I use an inert substrate with rounded grains. Once coned into buying a bag of  Florite or some such stuff. The ideal grain size for me would be the size between coarse sand and fine gravel. Difficult to find so I settled for fine gravel, deep but over under-gravel filter plates with a canister uplift (gravel 'tidy' made from geotextile)

Set up running for 15 years and counting. Fertilize the water column. Glue/tie plants to wood etc. Most just gently pushed into the gravel. Wood typically starts to fall apart after about ten years. Nothing seems to last.

Now as to shirts, I have been known to pay up to £5 to £6 for a nice one but typically £1.50 (new in boxes) they are my contributions to charitable causes. For a really old one (80 to 100yrs) in good nick I have thought of going up to £30 if I can find one in my size and not too many gravy stains.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to All.


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## jaypeecee (24 Dec 2019)

Oldguy said:


> Now as to shirts, I have been known to pay up to £5 to £6 for a nice one but typically £1.50 (new in boxes) they are my contributions to charitable causes. For a really old one (80 to 100yrs) in good nick I have thought of going up to £30 if I can find one in my size and not too many gravy stains.



HI @Oldguy 

Excellent! 

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you too!

JPC


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## jaypeecee (24 Dec 2019)

Tim Harrison said:


> Powder is quite a bit more expensive and usually used at the front or in small tanks to create a sense of perspective, and powder is perhaps a little easier to plant in especially for carpet plants. Normal size AS is used elsewhere. Alternatively, some folk use a layer of normal capped with a layer of powder, that is at the front. If you decide to do the latter make sure you're happy with the hardscape first since any rearranging will mix the two up and ruin the effect.



Hi @Tim Harrison 

Many thanks for your feedback.

From what you say, I think I'd be wise to stick with the basic Tropica AS.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (24 Dec 2019)

Hi Everyone,

I am very much aware that the substrate develops its own ecosystem, the benthic zone, if I understand it. I suspect that @dw1305 knows a good deal about this. Do I just allow this to develop naturally or do I need to intervene in some way, e.g. bacterial additions? I think I know the answer but feel the need to ask the question.

JPC


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## Tim Harrison (24 Dec 2019)

It'll be fine as is. The bacteria on plant roots will inoculate it, and the plants will also oxygenate the rhizosphere as they grow and develop.


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## jaypeecee (24 Dec 2019)

Tim Harrison said:


> It'll be fine as is. The bacteria on plant roots will inoculate it, and the plants will also oxygenate the rhizosphere as they grow and develop.



Thanks, Tim.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (27 Dec 2019)

Hi Everyone,

Just when I thought I knew how best to proceed, I then started to have more questions. @zozo said "Plant roots are rather adaptive, up to a microscopic level with rhizoids, as long there are nutrients you can grow plants on glass marbles or solely in the water* without substrate". That being the case, I firstly need something that satisfies requirement number [1] above. Something like JBL _Manado_ would meet that need and I believe it will have a high CEC but @zozo says that "CEC is more of an issue with terrestrial botany. In aquatic systems the water-column can/will provide all it needs". But, I already have JBL _Manado_ as that is what I'm currently using. At this point, I need to take a slight detour in my reasoning so please bear with me...

Isn't it easier to control the plant nutrient supply if the nutrients are being provided from just one source - the water column? If nutrients are being supplied by both the substrate and the water column, it must be a nightmare to control this. And how can one measure nutrients being supplied by the substrate? The test kits debate aside, it is at least possible to measure nutrients in the water column. For less experienced plant-growers like me, I often haven't a clue what is causing my plants to look 'off colour'. But if I can check for magnesium, for example, and it is non-existent, then that's better than guessing. Then I can add a dose of magnesium.

I am therefore moving away from the idea of using products like _Tropica AS_. But, please advise me otherwise if my logical mind is leading me astray.

All comments gratefully received.

* so that makes the idea of root feeders a myth, doesn't it?

JPC


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## Tim Harrison (27 Dec 2019)

Growing aquatic plants can be very straightforward and simple. There is no need to worry about controlling the nutrient supply or testing if you water column dose enough fertz to guarantee zero nutrient deficiencies. That's what eutrophic dosing methods like EI were designed for. This in turn leaves you free to pick a substrate that fits your requirements, in terms of practicalities, aesthetics, and budget; from inert sand to ADA AS and everything in between.

Personally, I usually use a nutritious substrate as well as dosing fertz. Although it's not essential plants can uptake nutrients through both leaves and roots so it just makes horticultural sense to feed both sites. It also gives you some wriggle room when it comes to missed doses and mistakes. But I have used inert sand before and the plants did just fine...


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## jaypeecee (27 Dec 2019)

Tim Harrison said:


> There is no need to worry about controlling the nutrient supply or testing if you water column dose enough fertz to guarantee zero nutrient deficiencies. That's what eutrophic dosing methods like EI were designed for.



Hi @Tim Harrison 

For me, the EI Method is not an option. 50% water changes on a weekly basis are unworkable. Thirty years ago, it may have been different. But, physically, I wouldn't be able to lug around umpteen kilograms of water every week. I have my health to consider. But, thanks for the suggestion.

JPC


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## Siege (27 Dec 2019)

Small pump in a bucket in the sink. Run the taps and pump at the same time?

Syphon the water out of the door.

I rarely lift a bucket at home nowadays.

Check out any George farmer maintenance video, you’ll see the same method.


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## Tim Harrison (27 Dec 2019)

I use a hose to syphon the water out of the tank through the door and on to the herbaceous border. I also use a hosepipe attached to the kitchen mixer tap via a Hozelock adapter to refill, so no lugging of water for me either.
I never worry about chlorine etc, it's never been an issue, but if that's a concern you can dose the tank directly with a conditioner, or put it in the bucket if you use Steven's method.

My favourite back saving gadget...






I think that if you're using CO2 and relatively intense lighting then a substantial weekly water change of around 50% is a good idea whether dosing EI or not; it's not just about resetting the nutrient levels its also about removing the metabolites of photosynthesis and critter waste and organics. If however, you intend to go low-energy then perhaps follow Tom Barr's "Non CO2 Methods" advice, then water changes will be less frequent and less substantial.


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## jaypeecee (27 Dec 2019)

Hi @Tim Harrison & @Siege

I forgot to mention that I don't use tap water as it's hard water. I use re-mineralized RO/DI water as I mostly keep softwater fish.

As for "removing the metabolites of photosynthesis and critter waste and organics", I am very aware of the last two of these. I try to keep these under control by using DOC-removing media in my external filter. As for the metabolites of photosynthesis, that has given me cause for concern. That's why I started the thread below:

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/do-healthy-plants-release-organics.59194/

At one time, I used Seachem _Purigen_ but then switched to Seachem _Renew_. I'm not convinced that the latter is effective. When you refer to "metabolites of photosynthesis", I presume these are all DOCs?

BTW, I don't wish to go the 'low-energy' route with the tank that is the subject of this thread. But I do use 'low-energy' in other tanks.

JPC


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (28 Dec 2019)

I also use the Hozelock tap connector water change method @Tim Harrison



Tim Harrison said:


> I never worry about chlorine etc, it's never been an issue



Interested that you say you don't word at about chlorine... can you explain a bit more for me. I'm always conscious about the interaction between ferts and dechlorinator...


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## Tim Harrison (28 Dec 2019)

Matt @ ScapeEasy said:


> I also use the Hozelock tap connector water change method @Tim Harrison
> Interested that you say you don't word at about chlorine... can you explain a bit more for me. I'm always conscious about the interaction between ferts and dechlorinator...


Pretty simple really, I've rarely used dechlorinator or conditioner, and have never had much in the way of problems using water straight from the tap. That's not to say I'd recommend that others do the same; I guess I've been relatively fortunate.
As for interactions between fertz and dechlorinator https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/using-ferts-with-dechlorinator.13290/


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## jaypeecee (28 Dec 2019)

Tim Harrison said:


> I never worry about chlorine etc, it's never been an issue...



Hi @Tim Harrison

So, what are we to make of this? Matt expressed concern about the interaction between ferts and dechlorinator. But, what about the fish, shrimps, snails, nitrifying bacteria, etc., etc.? It's not just chlorine/chloramine in tap water that poses a threat to these life forms but also heavy metals, for example. Copper, by way of just one example, has been shown to be toxic to some types of nitrifying bacteria if in excess of 0.05 mg/litre. And some species of fish will die at less than 0.15 mg/litre. The mean copper level in my tap water in 2018 was 0.23 mg/litre!

Do you have any theories/hypotheses, Tim, for this paradox? You must be doing something special. Is it possible that you run your planted tanks for a period of time before introducing fish, etc? Perhaps the plants are absorbing these toxins and chlorine gas is just being driven off?

Curiouser and curiouser (as Lewis Carroll would have said).

JPC


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## zozo (28 Dec 2019)

I guess it is regionally depended on how your water quality is. In my country and region where i live we get water from the Rhine Delta. At least that's how the Water Company calls it. And they guaranteed do not use Chlorine but disinfect with H2O2. Our water quality from the tap is better and cleaner and superior to the bottled Mineral (spring) Waters from the supermarket. Our tap water quality falls under strict safety and quality regulations and is daily monitored in a lab for over 80 substances. On the other hand, bottled spring water is only checked for 30 substances with regular sampling per x period.

Strange regulations and contrast, tap water cleaner better and cheaper than the so-called healthy supermarket equivalent. 

I can also water change straight from the tap. 

And still the pet shops in my region i know 4 in a 10-kilometre radius all sell so-called water enhancer at the aquarium corner. I guess the people not checking up and not asking the water company for a lab report on the water quality they get. Still buy that stuff by the litres. And drink bottled water from the supermarket.


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## Tim Harrison (28 Dec 2019)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Tim Harrison
> 
> So, what are we to make of this? Matt expressed concern about the interaction between ferts and dechlorinator. But, what about the fish, shrimps, snails, nitrifying bacteria, etc., etc.? It's not just chlorine/chloramine in tap water that poses a threat to these life forms but also heavy metals, for example. Copper, by way of just one example, has been shown to be toxic to some types of nitrifying bacteria if in excess of 0.05 mg/litre. And some species of fish will die at less than 0.15 mg/litre. The mean copper level in my tap water in 2018 was 0.23 mg/litre!
> 
> ...


I think Marcel summed it up fairly succinctly. I guess if water is good enough for us to drink it's usually good enough for our critters; regulations for potable supply are very stringent. Perhaps the only time there is need for concern is during maintenance on the pipeline and then water suppliers might dose chloramine.


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## jaypeecee (29 Dec 2019)

Tim Harrison said:


> I guess if water is good enough for us to drink it's usually good enough for our critters; regulations for potable supply are very stringent.



Hi @Tim Harrison 

Oh dear, I cannot believe you are saying that. Just because tap water is OK for human consumption, it does not follow that it is OK for fish, etc. For example, tap water is chlorinated to render it safe for we humans. But, chlorine is toxic to fish. And the list goes on. You only have to visit water companies' web sites to see this. Here's your 'starter for ten':

https://www.southwestwater.co.uk/advice-and-services/your-water/keeping-fish/

JPC


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## zozo (29 Dec 2019)

Of course, does a water company give such general advice and information. If they don't they can be held responsible. They deliver water to your house and their responsibility stops at your door, more to say at your water meter. The piping under the street and your water meter is Water Company property you pay for. If the water company states your tap water is potable you can be guaranteed that the tubing used to transport it to your house is safe.

What goes on behind that water meter on your property is your (or the owners) responsibility. In some cases, if you live in a very old 19th-century building it could be you still have parts of Lead piping or younger build Iron pipping in your water circuit. It shouldn't be, but still, it's the properties owners responsibility to replace it. It's not the water companies responsibility if the properties owner ignores this.

Thus also because they can not know about the installations condition and the size that goes from the water meter to your tap. Then they say it "Can" be the case if the water is longer period stagnant in such pipes that you have dissolved metals such as Copper, Zinc, Lead and Iron in your tap water.  That is where the advice comes, depending on the volume of the installation in the building run your tap water for a few minutes to flush it out before you use it. Thus you should convince your self and know how far all this is applicable in your current situation.

In a regular average family home, the volume in the water piping is cleared with flushing your toilet once every morning. If you haven't done this for a week, then its always advisable to flush the system for a minute or 2. Since it's not only metals but also bacteria like Legionella you could worry about.


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## Conort2 (29 Dec 2019)

I think it’s more a problem if emergency works are done to pipes, then the water companies add chloramine which is much more harmful. For how much dechlorinator costs I wouldn’t ever risk it. Don’t fancy losing hundreds of quids worth of fish for a capful of prime at every water change.

cheers

Conor


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## Tim Harrison (29 Dec 2019)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Tim Harrison
> 
> Oh dear, I cannot believe you are saying that. Just because tap water is OK for human consumption, it does not follow that it is OK for fish, etc. For example, tap water is chlorinated to render it safe for we humans. But, chlorine is toxic to fish. And the list goes on. You only have to visit water companies' web sites to see this. Here's your 'starter for ten':https://www.southwestwater.co.uk/advice-and-services/your-water/keeping-fish/JPC


Ouch...and there it is, I had a feeling you'd be picking me up on that especially as I teed myself up nicely for you to strike me down the fairway for fore...

Of course you're absolutely right, tap water can contain traces of many substances hazardous to aquatic life. But like I mentioned above, in all the decades I've been fish keeping I've not had any problems using untreated water straight from the tap. So I guess the conc. of those substances, including chlorine, have always been well within safe limits, not just for human consumption but also for aquatic life as well, which would kinda' make sense.


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## jaypeecee (29 Dec 2019)

Tim Harrison said:


> Ouch...and there it is, I had a feeling you'd be picking me up on that especially as I teed myself up nicely for you to strike me down the fairway for fore...



You would have been perfectly safe, Tim. I'm hopeless at golf!

JPC


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## jaypeecee (29 Dec 2019)

zozo said:


> Thus also because they can not know about the installations condition and the size that goes from the water meter to your tap. Then they say it "Can" be the case if the water is longer period stagnant in such pipes that you have dissolved metals such as Copper, Zinc, Lead and Iron in your tap water.  That is where the advice comes, depending on the volume of the installation in the building run your tap water for a few minutes to flush it out before you use it. Thus you should convince your self and know how far all this is applicable in your current situation.



Hi @zozo

I live in a house built 30 years ago. It has the original plumbing. I just checked the free/dissolved copper from my kitchen cold water tap as this is probably the most-frequently used tap in my house. I used the Sensafe 480042 test. It reliably measures from 0 - 2 mg/litre in increments of 0, 0.05, 0.1, 0.2, 0.4, 1, 2 mg/litre. My tap water measured between 0.1 and 0.2 mg/litre. That is consistent with my water company's figures. Last year, they ranged from 0.01 - 1.02 mg/litre with a mean of 0.23 mg/litre. So, those are the raw facts. I certainly would not want to use this untreated tap water in my tanks, which are home to fish, shrimps, snails and microfauna. That's one of the reasons I choose to use re-mineralized RO/DI water.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (17 Feb 2020)

Hi Folks,

I have finally decided to go the inert substrate route. I have chosen 'fine' sand (Unipac) with grain size from 1 - 1.6 mm. Does this sound OK from a root penetration, compacting and oxygenation point-of-view? I don't want it to 'go bad' (anaerobic/anoxic). The thing about substrates is that we don't want to make the wrong decision. If we do, it means stripping down the tank and starting from scratch. It's a bit like the foundations of a building, isn't it?

Any feedback greatly appreciated.

JPC


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (19 Feb 2020)

Couldn’t agree more with you on the need to get it right!! The grain size sounds good - I remember doing a lot of research a few years about and determining that around a 2 mom grain size was about perfect for optimal plant growth. That said, I use simple play sand in my tank for a cosmetic foreground and in places it is probably to a depth of 3 or 4 cm. I have Malaysian trumpet snails which help with ensuring it doesn’t go bad but I suspect this is overkill. It’s not intended to grow plants in but some have done well in even this. Anyway suspect your in the right track here, would you want to do a “sub-substrate” under the sand such as tropica plant growth substrate (https://tropica.com/en/plant-care/substrate/) I suspect you could with your grain size.


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## Witcher (19 Feb 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> Any feedback greatly appreciated.


hey @jaypeecee
A thin layer of garden soil below the inert substrate may work as a very good buffer for water column feed. You can regulate its acidity by either mixing it with peat or some calcium/magnesium. You can also add some CEC to it by mixing it with the clay. And you can change its aeration by adding either more sand or thicker gravel.


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## jaypeecee (19 Feb 2020)

Matt @ ScapeEasy said:


> Couldn’t agree more with you on the need to get it right!! The grain size sounds good - I remember doing a lot of research a few years about and determining that around a 2 mom grain size was about perfect for optimal plant growth. That said, I use simple play sand in my tank for a cosmetic foreground and in places it is probably to a depth of 3 or 4 cm. I have Malaysian trumpet snails which help with ensuring it doesn’t go bad but I suspect this is overkill. It’s not intended to grow plants in but some have done well in even this. Anyway suspect your in the right track here, would you want to do a “sub-substrate” under the sand such as tropica plant growth substrate (https://tropica.com/en/plant-care/substrate/) I suspect you could with your grain size.



Hi Matt,

Thanks for your reply. I have decided against a layer of soil underneath the sand. I used to have this arrangement before in this same tank. But, I've taken on board a comment above by @zozo that it's possible to grow plants on glass marbles. OK, not literally! So, it's a completely inert substrate this time around. Ferts will be added to the water column only. I have considered MTS before but decided against them for fear of them breeding like rabbits. But, the idea of having MTS makes a lot of sense. How do you keep them under control?

JPC


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## jaypeecee (19 Feb 2020)

Witcher said:


> hey @jaypeeceeA thin layer of garden soil below the inert substrate may work as a very good buffer for water column feed. You can regulate its acidity by either mixing it with peat or some calcium/magnesium. You can also add some CEC to it by mixing it with the clay. And you can change its aeration by adding either more sand or thicker gravel.



Hi @Witcher 

Thanks for your reply. Please see my comments to Matt above.

JPC


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## Onoma1 (19 Feb 2020)

I am in a similar situation @jaypeecee. I have tried ADA and dosing EI and found algae a problem and 'balancing' the fertiliser,  co2,  lighting etc tricky. I got there but it took a a few months of trial and error and eventually went for lean dosing with Osmocote on the base.  I am still running with large weekly water changes. So far its effective, however, time will tell how this is working.  My dirted tank using john innes with a soil retainer and cap is much more resilient, has better growth, only needs the odd water change and doesn't have algae issues...so far.

I have decided on trying Velda Lelite 10L Aquatic Substrate For Lillies as a base for my next scape instead of John Innes. 4.99 for 10 litres. @zozo recommend this and I will try for a deeper substrate for deeper rooted plants (crypts etc)


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## zozo (19 Feb 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> that it's possible to grow plants on glass marbles. OK, not literally!






 



Onoma1 said:


> @zozo recommend this and I will try for a deeper substrate for deeper rooted plants (crypts etc)


I used it quite a lot in the garden, then i came to the idea to use it a small outdoor garden aquarium with also a few tropical plants, back in 2017. Used it as a base layer sloped up only at the left and right side corners, Nothing in the middle. Then capped it with river sand and capped that again with gravel.

This is the result in the first year.
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/mission-bathtub-2017.49096/page-9#post-496953

It still is setup today with the very same soil and each year 2018 and 2019 it grew plants like mad and never fertilized it.
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/mission-bathtub-2019.56746/page-2#post-568163

I'm pretty sure Crypts will love it.


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## jaypeecee (19 Feb 2020)

Onoma1 said:


> I am in a similar situation @jaypeecee...I will try for a deeper substrate for deeper rooted plants (crypts etc)



Hi @Onoma1 

What depth of substrate are you aiming for? Is there an optimum _total_ depth?

JPC


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## jaypeecee (19 Feb 2020)

zozo said:


>



Hi @zozo 

Wonderful!  I guess this is hydroponics. What species of plants do you have there? I assume that plants destined for aquarium use (such as those from Tropica) are grown hydroponically. If that's the case, why bother with soil in an aquarium?

JPC


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## zozo (19 Feb 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @zozo
> 
> Wonderful!  I guess this is hydroponics. What species of plants do you have there? I assume that plants destined for aquarium use (such as those from Tropica) are grown hydroponically. If that's the case, why bother with soil in an aquarium?
> 
> JPC


They are not mine its a googled picture. . I'm not sure about the plants in it, the first looks like coconut or something the other 2 could be Syngonium. But most plants are not fussy about the substrate they grow in, Anthurium is also a well know houseplant to grow in a bowl of water only. And think of hydroculture plants in office buildings, growing on an inert backed clay pebble.
http://www.hydro-culture.net/plants.html

Look at the plant pot from what you buy in the lfs, all grow on Rockwool or Agar Agar if invitro. It simply says all it needs should be in the water it contains.

Why bother with soil in an aquarium?. Aesthetics, easier to give shape, better anchoring to keep the plants in place etc. etc.
Depending on what the soil contains you either need or don't need to fertilize the water column. It's all about what you prefer. 

In the end, even an inert substrate will mineralize with all kinds of organics with the debri sinking into it and compost to useful nutrients. Fish poop, plants shed leaves that will disolve etc. In the beginning with an inert substrate you have to make sure you add enough fertilization. But this can change over time. For example i have an aquarium 5 years old now, it started out inert. But now after all these years i fertilize it much less that the first year.


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## jaypeecee (19 Feb 2020)

Hi @zozo 

Many thanks. Everything you say resonates with me. What appeals to me about the inert substrate approach is that it reduces the number of variables involved in growing (aquatic) plants.

JPC


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## Onoma1 (19 Feb 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Onoma1
> 
> What depth of substrate are you aiming for? Is there an optimum _total_ depth?
> 
> JPC



I am still thinking about this. I have been following the discussion here and on  https://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=41038&start=80 @dw1305 's arguments make a lot of sense to me. I have one 9kg  bag of aqua soil from Aquarium Gardens (the cap), a soil retainer and 40k of Velda.  I was thinking of 8 or 9 cm in places and deeper behind rocks. I haven't got a design yet....so am considering my approach!!


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (19 Feb 2020)

I would recommend @jaypeecee that you consider some root tabs for known root feeding plants if you choose to use any in addition to water column fertilisation. Of course you could avoid such plants also (mainly rosette type) if you choose to do so. I am planning to do something similar myself to create a low maintenance tank


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (20 Feb 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> I have considered MTS before but decided against them for fear of them breeding like rabbits. But, the idea of having MTS makes a lot of sense. How do you keep them under control?


I never answered your question!... Not over feeding is said to be the key, I also have cories, shrimp etc which reduce any detritus in the tank. As they bury into the substrate for the daylight hours it is rare you see them anyway.


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## jaypeecee (20 Feb 2020)

Matt @ ScapeEasy said:


> I would recommend @jaypeecee that you consider some root tabs for known root feeding plants if you choose to use any in addition to water column fertilisation.



Hi Matt

From what I've read here on UKAPS and elsewhere, it seems that the term 'root feeder' is incorrect. I am under the impression that all submerged aquatic plants prefer to take in nutrients through their leaves. Roots anchor the plants in place and, in their natural habitat, prevent them from being 'washed away'. Perhaps nutrients in the water column diffuse/permeate into the substrate anyway? To what extent, I haven't a clue!

JPC


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## jaypeecee (20 Feb 2020)

Matt @ ScapeEasy said:


> I never answered your question!... Not over feeding is said to be the key, I also have cories, shrimp etc which reduce any detritus in the tank. As they bury into the substrate for the daylight hours it is rare you see them anyway.



Hi Matt,

Thanks for the feedback. Please take a look at this article:

http://www.tfhmagazine.com/details/articles/taming-the-tenacious-trumpet-snail.htm

What stands out for me in this article is the bit about increased bioload. My hunch at the moment is that MTS are a no-no.

JPC


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