# New 300l set up, help needed



## Graham1984 (25 Aug 2013)

Hi, long time reader, first time poster,
I have a 300L 120x46x70cm the stock lighting is 2x30wt T8, (which is not used but could be)  I have modified the hood to take 2x54wt t5ho bulbs,  1149 860 daylight tube and a grolux tube. I have the standard cf1200 filter, with some smaller power heads for circulation. Im planning on using 1.5 inches  of john innes no3 from B&Q and capped off with   1.5 inches of 2-4mm graded Supalite Fine Bonsai Soil. ( its termed as a soil but looks more like a black cat litter) the T8 lighting sits on a glass tray an inch or so above the water and the t5s sit on the rim of tank 5 inches or so above the water.  Roughly 24iniches from the substrate.  Im planning on planting up with this plant pack from java plants

Crypt Nevilli  Hygrophilia Polysperma  Red Ludwigia  Ambulia Aquatica  Bacopa Monniera  Rotal Macrandra  Diplis Diandra  Vallis Torta  Elodea Densa  Hairgrass  Bacopa Caroliniana  Bacopa Myriophyliodes  Cabomba aquatic  Vallis Corkscrew sml  Crypt Lucens  Water Wisteria  Crypt Ciliata  Crypt Balansae  Crypt Wendtii  Sea Grass  Needle Leaf Ludwigia  Nymphea Stellata   Java Moss  Red Ambulia 

Does this set up look ok in theory? I wasn’t planning on using co2 but may consider a diy yeast set up.  I still a bit worried about the lighting, depending on what book you use, or site you visit you get conflicting information about what level of light you have and what is necessary. Im not looking for that high end aquascaped set up look, I know I don’t have the time for that, a low maintenance job its all im looking for. Im also not too concerned about a small amount of plant wastage from the pack, I know some wont do so well as they were not hand picked. I have no current fish stock as I was planning on giving the tank 8 to 10 weeks to grow in and settle down before I went down the small tetra style route.   
Any advice would be greatly appreciated..


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## GHNelson (25 Aug 2013)

Hi Graham
Welcome to the ukaps.
If you are not using Co2...Crypts/Hygrophilia Polysperma/ Ludwigia/Vallis Corkscrew /Bacopa/Nymphea/Java moss...should do okay.
You may have problems keeping some of the others healthy..without some form of Carbon input.
I wouldn't bother going down the DIY Co2 route for this size of tank.
Liquid carbon could be considered....as alternative too injected Co2.
I would use the t8s if its low maintenance your after.
I would still dose ferts/trace.....even if i didn't use Co2.
hoggie


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## Graham1984 (26 Aug 2013)

Thank you hoggie,
I have a box of liquid ferts, fe, no3, fosfo  easy carbo, and a few dropper type things and some various root tabs left over from previous attempts. 

Do you think the light levels are too high using the t5ho’s?  could a shorter photo period balance the higher level out a bit?  If I was to use the t8s how long should they be on for in relation to the t5s?

Im after low (ish) maintenance, but don’t mind spending some time keeping things going.  
If I did go with the higher light would the soil layer and liquid carbon provide anything near the co2 needed to keep a fair selection of plants?

Is there anything else I can chuck into the substrate to help things along? Ive seen things like clay and garden fertilizer balls used, but would that be overkill?   

thanks again..


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## GHNelson (26 Aug 2013)

Hi
If you use to much light the outcome will be a algae fest....so best start lowish with T8s for say 6 hours a day.
Leave some of the Hygrophilia Polysperma....on the surface as a floating plant and a tank health indicator.
More light means extra Carbon needed....which could mean dosing 6ml to 12ml of liquid carbon everyday....so could be expensive.
You could add Osmocote to the substrate.  Miracle-Gro All Purpose Slow Release Plant Food Granules - 1kg similar osmocote | eBay
More light = more growth = more maintenance.
All aquariums are unique...so its a bit of trail and error at times.
Cheers
hoggie


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## Graham1984 (26 Aug 2013)

I dont know when, or why id talked myself into thinking the lighting unit that came with the tank was not not going to be up to the job... I think it may of been when I seen the perfectly placed jungle tanks that probably take a
good hour or so a day to keep up. not to mention a fortune in ferts, co2 and magic sludge in the bottom.

If I use the hygro as an floating indicator, what should I be looking for? 

Im going to go down the liquid carbon route too, but im thinking I may also give the diy a bit of a bash, as a way of reducing the liquid requirements, I have access to top quality soft live yeast,  and I already have some
diffusers airline and a special bottle cap thing,

due to a whole list of expensive mistakes in the past, I have a large collection of various tank equipment that im going to give one last try of before it all gets binned, I take myself to pets at home, buy shipwreck or submarine, and 5 bags of bright blue gravel.

thanks man, .


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## GHNelson (26 Aug 2013)

....A few have been down that route.


Graham1984 said:


> If I use the hygro as an floating indicator, what should I be looking for?


Just general unhealthyness....there's a guide here>>>>>>James' Planted Tank - Plant Deficiencies
hoggie


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## Graham1984 (26 Aug 2013)

That site is more than likley where my ideas for the t5s came from, and the bonsai soil. The planting is stunning

 it seems so easy, get this, do that, put that there, then boom, look at these photos,

once you get your arms wet, you discover it is nerver as simple as that. once you get, this and that there is aways another 20 jobs that come with the simple upgrades. before you know it you need NASA and Stephen Hawking to come round to house once a day to test everything, rite down to the air pressure in your spare tire of your best friends second car....

you see these stunning tanks on any search engines images, and you think, yeah, trip to the garden centre/pets at home/ online retailer, £550 quid later you have a bag of Magic wizzard dust for the bottom. ground unicorn dust for the top the best plants money can buy. lighting that could x-ray you through 6 foot of concrete. A small nucular power station running your tank equipment.

3 weeks later, you have some difficult questions to answer from the wife.... and nothing but algea, that grows for free...

so its back to the bottom of the tank, water all over, sand/ gravel everywhere,  plastic boxes of fish all over.

more tricky questions,....

just in time for pay day the next month.

Ive had this tank for 10 years now, and the tank its self is faultless, but I can honestly say I have never been happy with anything ive done with it. However, im happy to accept now its the muppet on the outside causing the problems
not the equipment..

Ive done a lot of reading,  and spent hours reading journals and forums. and decided the high tech approach is not for me, and not just high tech, High cost... Im not after growing the rarest aquatic plant known to man. or filling my tank with rock imported from the moon.  Im just after a simple/ basic set up, with simple/basic plants, that will in a year or so of cutting and replanting look like its ment to be like that.

Im considering doing some kind of journal myself around this build, as if found it hard to find good quality information on the larger tank side of things, on a budget. It seems that nano/ small tank information does not scale up
as easily, and most of the people who post who have bigger tanks in my experience tend to go either super high tech, or saltwater reef.

Anyway RANT over...

Im still looking for ANY advice  on set ups, in terms of the soil substrate, and areas to avoid. There must be other people like me who have a tank that is too big to fill full of premium substrates/gravels/witchcraft.


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## foxfish (26 Aug 2013)

It sounds like you need to revise the low tech section on the forum, there are a few guys having great success with soil based tanks.
It helps if you understand that C02 is the driving force not matter what angle you attract from.... the more C02 the better there after it is about patience because low tech & injected are two different animals! 
Low tec is slow & relatively peaceful approach, don't get to excited & expect an instant reward but be realistic & expect a long term relationship.
I don't think dosing a 300l with liquid carbon is going to be economical or trying to use DIY yeast set will benefit you either.
Check out Alistair's & Big Toms set ups... sorry I cant link the threads on my phone.


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## Graham1984 (26 Aug 2013)

Ive looked at co2 before, I even went as far as buying a fire extinguisher and a regulator, form the diy guide on here, Never got around to setting it up tho. I bought a ton load of anubias in various forms once upon a time, they grew ok,

started to fill out nicely, but then came the black beard algae, so following advice possibly again from this forum, used a bleach solution to clear it off. as i was finishing off cleaning up the tank, my dog came back into the house with a wet head... she had picked the leaves of every single plant and hid the rhizomes in all of my plant pots.

has anyone had any experience with the cheaper solenoid kits available? or any complete kit that may be compatible with a fire extinguisher?
  also, for a 300l tank, with  what i assume is low lighting, Ive seen charts saying i have high/medium and too low. how long could I roughly expect a 2kg FE to last me?

I think i may go for the two T8 tubes and maybe a single t5ho tube, as a boost around mid day for say around 2 to 3 hours.  
lighting up a soil base layer, capped with a catliter type top layer.

 I guess even a diy co2 kept in a bell style diffuser that comes with the disposable canister kits, placed under a small internal filter would not come anywhere near my requirements..
 or.. on the flip side of that, a FE linked up to a regulator, feeding into the bottom of the mini filter.

but then that adds the problem of getting refils? where would you even start looking for someone to do that for you?

 ive read through big toms posts with interest in the past, and also james planted tank,alisteirs 450 is amazing, but the lighting levels a way in excess of what i replicate. id imagine the maintence on that is fairly heavy too.

as for waiting for results, I work funny shifts, and have a 9 month old daughter, tank time is very limited, which is why ive decided to chuck in some soil, and cheap stems, and crypts, and see what happens. thats why ive decided to ask for advice on the set up before I make another mess.


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## GHNelson (27 Aug 2013)

Hi Graham
Thats a nice size of tank....it can be a frustrating hobby at times.
Ditch the Java package and go with Crypts and a few other plants.....Saggittraia subulata is a easy foreground plant.
Valliisneria torta...would be another.
Get some Osmocote and some JBL root balls....add it to the substrate.
Purchase or find some wood/rock suitable as a feature.
I've kept all these plants without Co2 and all will do well if left to thier own devises.
You will get some BBA on anubis if you have a lot of aeration...or turbulence on the surface...so you need to keep this to a minimum.
Have a look below
Low maintenance Jungle set up | UK Aquatic Plant Society
hoggie


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## Graham1984 (27 Aug 2013)

that right down the right lines of what ive always aimed for.

I already have have some nice chunks of landscape rock, the type you see in garden centres in those wire baskets outside, ive got three in the tank now under all the algae.
ive also got a fairly large collection of totally covered crypts that havent really been touched since jan/feb time this year.

they also havent grown,. other than the algae on them.	 ( will i give the bleach dip a go again?)

they are planted in a layer of cat litter used to create some lumps and bumps in the bottom topeed with pond soil, capped with silver sand in the front and black quartz gravel in the back.
had the t5sho over the top and didnt really get any results.

the low maintenance jungle set up above reads as he was using t5s, then switched to t8s? thats very interesting and I will be chasing down the  _''Less lighting is more''_ article,  as I undersand it, reducing the intensity of
the lighting will reduce the need for co2, but the trade off is it slows down the growth of the plants, ( no good for amano carpet type tanks but better for jungle type)

so how do you figure out if what you are going to use will be enough to keep what you have bought alive and then to slowly grow them.? Im guessing the WPG calculation is based of fairly instant impact growing and that lower levels
than what is considered low or very low light can be used for this style, providing you are ready to wait for results?

been out and got the osmocote and the root balls are on order, if i can get the basics in place, and be confident that im heading in the right direction i dont mind investing in plants over time as long as i know im not just slowy composting them..

thanks again man..


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## GHNelson (27 Aug 2013)

Hi Graham
Looks as though you have enough items to get you started.
If your crypts have good root stock they will be fine for re-planting.
First don't dip the crypts...peel off the leaves that have most algae.
Crypts like decent planting substrate...thats why i said purchase root tablets.
You may get conflicting theory on this......i have grown crypt root stock out of the substrate with high Co2 and ferts.
You dont have that option.
Crypts dont like to be moved....disturbing them will slow their growth.
Get some floating plants...i prefer Amazon frogbite or Water sprite...a plant that will grow quick.
Use the T8s....6/7 hours a day max...you can always use the T5s when you start growing healthy plants.
Osmocote ...you only need a small amount per square foot.
When you make 25 post on the forum...you will be allowed..into the For Sale/Swap/Wanted section,
you can ask for cuttings there.
hoggie


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## Graham1984 (27 Aug 2013)

ok, so my revised plan,

Im going to use my t8 light, with a daylight bulb and a growlux bulb. the power of that light, i think from memory is 36wts
my t5 will have one of the bulbs fitted in the tank ready for use, but not used.

the bottom layer will be the basic john innes 3 mix soil from b&q,  that will be an inch and a half deep,
that will have a hand full or two of osmocote mixed in.

that will then get dampened and pushed down a little bit to push out some of the air and the level checked again/topped back up to an 1.5 inches,

then the rinsed clay gravel goes over the top to 1.5 inches,

hardscape goes in,

partial fill with room temp water, de-cholor water.

plants go in, and topped off with room temp de-cholor water
root balls go in under plants pushed  in with a pencil

filters and heaters go on,

lighting goes on, 6 hours per day on a timer, say 5pm untill 11, as thats when people will be in to see the tank.

start testing water, and dosing liquid fers and carbon.

what happens with water changes? do i just let the tank sit to cycle?


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## Tim Harrison (28 Aug 2013)

Hi Graham, letting the tank sit and cycle is ok if you don't have critters since the ammonium given off will cycle the filter, water changes will reduce ammonium/nitrite and therefore your filter might not cycle as fast, but this is something of a moot point. The other school of thought is it's better to do frequent water changes early on, for a few weeks or so, until the tank settles in supposedly to remove any organic build up and reduce the risk of an algal outbreak etc...but this isn't so important in a low-energy tank. So in short, yes just let the tank sit and cycle, I do and I've never had any problems. This may also be of help...The Soil Substrate Planted Tank - A How to Guide | UK Aquatic Plant Society

By the way, you don't really need osmocote or root balls JI #3 is already high in nutrients, but that's down to preference. I would however mix JI #3 1:1 with moss peat to reduce its tendency to increase hardness and pH, or alternatively use 1:1 aquatic compost and moss peat, which I find is better still. Anyway it's all in the tutorial above. Good luck...


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## Graham1984 (28 Aug 2013)

thanks troi,

Ive spent a lot of time reading over your posts in the past, Ive still got half a bag of aquatic compst in the shed, so thats handy. would you mix in any cat litter molar clay into the soil subsrate?  Would that provide anything other than a surface for stuff to absorb or cling to? can the plant roots break it down for iron or because its hard is that it?

if i was heading down the crypt route, is adding some form of clay important?

if so my garden has very thick clay soil, can i just borrow some from fairly deep down roll it into balls and stick that in?  ( in theory)


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## Tim Harrison (28 Aug 2013)

It should be fine as is - aquatic compost contains loam, clay, peat mix already and therefore has a high CEC...my Crypts grow like mad in the above 1:1 mix. You could add some grit or cat litter if you want to, say a couple of good handfuls per bucket, it might improve the structure a bit and help root penetration etc, but it's not essential.


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## Graham1984 (28 Aug 2013)

there must be 100s of people who have probably 90% of a really good planted tank hidden away in sheds and boxes,

and a tank full of blue plastic plants, glow in the dark gravel and a spongebob airstone.

I would encourage anyone reading, and thinking about getting serious about planting up, to post any questions you have. Ive read loads of books/web sites, thought I understood what was needed,

But now I feel better knowing people have done similar things already to what i was planning.especially on the lighting side of things...


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