# Water parameter & plant help!



## Jan_H (19 Feb 2022)

Hi,

I am relatively new to the hobby (having aquarium one year). Useful information on this forum made me register and ask for help. I have a 300 liter tank. I used tap water that was treated by a water softener (ion exchange Ca/Mg -> Na). During this period GH was 5, KH 16-18. Suboptimal plant growth; all my plants are beginners' plants. After repeatedly reading that such water is not good for aquariums, I have installed an additional valve upstream from the ion exchanger. Since November  (=4 months now) I use untreated water for every water exchange. GH has gradually risen and now it stable (GH=KH=16-18).  Things have improved. I see better growth of the plants, but I also fight with algae (pretty much all - diatoms, GSA, BBA, BGA).

NO2 is not an issue (not measurable), fish are doing fine.

I am using CO2 from the beginning but I had to pump insane amounts of CO2 to get the drop checker at least blue-green. I found out that the problem was the JBL inline diffusor (something was not tight enough, CO2 was leaking somewhere and not going through the membrane, not producing fine bubbles). One month ago, I have purchased another inline diffusor (Q-Grow) and now I finally see, how this is supposed to work. Set to 120 dpm, the 20 mg/l drop checker is constant light green = since one month, I finally have stable and sufficient levels of CO2 in the tank. I also see a decrease in pH (used to be 7.6+, now I measure 7.3-7.4).

Since the growth of algae was picking up, I decided to use EasyCarbo. This helps, but the tank is clearly not in equilibrium (it never was). I now focus on optimizing nutrients. NO3 is typically 15-30 mg/l and it comes at this level in the tap water. PO4 and Fe are not measurable. In my opinion, the algae growth comes from too much NO3 and not enough PO4 and Fe. I add these to water column (EasyLife Fosfo and JBL Ferropol). I add 0.2 mg/l pf PO4 once a week and 20 ml of Ferropol (0.1 mg/l of Fe) 4 days after the PO4.

I have plenty of light (7x 10W modules, 180 lm/W = 12600 lm,  42 lm/l). Currently dimmed to roughly 3/4 of the max. The tap water has increased levels of SiO2 (approx 3 mg/l), I guess that explains the diatoms. I used to have SilicatEx in the filter, but removed it before Xmas, after I have read that it impacts also iron availability and that if aquarium is in equilibrium diatoms disappear despite the high levels of SiO2.

What I have read in this thread makes me believe that I should be able to end up with eye pleasing aquarium despite the high levels of GH/KH, without having to buy a RO unit. Am I doing the right things? Light was always OK, CO2 is OK now, there is abundance of Ca2+ and Mg2+, no more Na2+.  I expected that once I regularly add PO4 and Fe (my limiting factors?), I will see that NO3 levels will go down, but they stay more or less constant. Shoudl I add even more PO4/Fe? Or are the plants are too tired/weak after months of suffering and I am only making things worse by adding other nutrients that cannot be used at the moment? Do plants grow slower in hard water and I should focus on reducing NO3? How would I do this? I am thankful for any advice/suggestion.


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## jaypeecee (19 Feb 2022)

Hi @Jan_H 

Welcome to UKAPS!

As your problems seem to be centred on your hard water, would it be possible to use rainwater (suitably filtered, if necessary)?

JPC


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## Konsa (19 Feb 2022)

Jan_H said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am relatively new to the hobby (having aquarium one year). Useful information on this forum made me register and ask for help. I have a 300 liter tank. I used tap water that was treated by a water softener (ion exchange Ca/Mg -> Na). During this period GH was 5, KH 16-18. Suboptimal plant growth; all my plants are beginners' plants. After repeatedly reading that such water is not good for aquariums, I have installed an additional valve upstream from the ion exchanger. Since November  (=4 months now) I use untreated water for every water exchange. GH has gradually risen and now it stable (GH=KH=16-18).  Things have improved. I see better growth of the plants, but I also fight with algae (pretty much all - diatoms, GSA, BBA, BGA).
> 
> ...


Hi
Will you please provide more info on your system. 
Filtration,When Co2 comes on/off,when your lights come on /off,how you maintain the tank,what fertilizers you are using and how much/when you dosing, what critters are in there.Post loads of pics(videos).
Having hard water on its own its not detrimental for most plant species health.There are possibly more factors in play.

Regards Konstantin


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## dw1305 (19 Feb 2022)

Hi all,
Edit:  Apologies to @Jan_H  I originally managed to post this in <"another thread">.

Welcome to UKAPS.


Jan_H said:


> GH has gradually risen and now it stable (GH=KH=16-18). Things have improved. I see better growth of the plants, but I also fight with algae (pretty much all - diatoms, GSA, BBA, BGA).


These are the sort of dGH and dKH levels <"many of us will have"> in our tap water.


Jan_H said:


> This helps, but the tank is clearly not in equilibrium (it never was). I now focus on optimizing nutrients. NO3 is typically 15-30 mg/l and it comes at this level in the tap water. PO4 and Fe are not measurable. In my opinion, the algae growth comes from too much NO3 and not enough PO4 and Fe. I add these to water column (EasyLife Fosfo and JBL Ferropol). I add 0.2 mg/l pf PO4 once a week and 20 ml of Ferropol (0.1 mg/l of Fe) 4 days after the PO4.


We probably need a photo of the tank to assess plant growth. I'd guess that you are having some nutrient issues, with one, or more, of the <"fourteen essential nutrients"> for plant growth in deficit.

Have a look at <"Frogbit taken a turn"> it shows iron (Fe) deficiency and the recovery from it. I like a floating plant as a <"canary">, because it takes CO2 availability (and light) out of the equation.

Iron is a common deficiency in hard water and it maybe that the JBL Ferropol doesn't supply any iron in a <"plant available form">, @Zeus. will probably be able to supply the answer?

cheers Darrel


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## Zeus. (19 Feb 2022)

Jan_H said:


> I have a 300 liter tank.





Jan_H said:


> I add 0.2 mg/l pf PO4 once a week and 20 ml of Ferropol (0.1 mg/l of Fe) 4 days after the PO4.






So 20ml in 300litre tank isn't going to yield very much about 0.035 ppm Fe

You would need to be dosing 75ml per week to reach 0.13 ppm Fe

For a 300litre tank it will be much cheaper doing DIY ferts, depends on what you can get your hands on.



dw1305 said:


> JBL Ferropol doesn't supply any iron


from JBL product info



which suggests the Fe is in the form of EDTA along with the Cu and Zn

I dont think the issues with algae are anything to do with high NO3 levels more to do with insufficient Ferts esp with injecting CO2. Plus if using CO2 have you done a pH profile to check you have a stable pH ( pH is used as a proxy to measure [CO2]


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## Jan_H (19 Feb 2022)

Wow, I did not expect to get so much feedback is such a short time. Thank you.

To react on your questions:
1) Collect rain water - would be unpractical for me
2) Filter: Eheim prodessional 4+ (240-600 l) (trays bottom up: filter pads, Eheim biomech, 2x Eheim substrat pro, fine filter pad) 
3) LIghts on 8 hour a day (15:00-23:00, the aquarium is in the basement = no daylight impact)
4) CO2 was on 2 hours before lights on and off together with the lights; since I replaced the inline diffuser (one month ago), I keep the CO2 on constantly
5) water exchange: currently once a week 40-60 liters, but as I am trying to reduce the algae, I suck all the residuals a few times a week (around 20 liters), I top the missing water 
6) 4 angel fish, 15 black tetras, 8 sterba's corydas, 4 crevettes which are hidden since I added the angel fish (but alive), few snails
7) you are right that 20 ml Ferropol is below the recommended dosing (10ml/40l for new water, 10ml/80l maintaining dosing), but brush algae appeared when I was applying such dosing, therefore I backed off
8) photos added


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## hypnogogia (19 Feb 2022)

Jan_H said:


> I add 0.2 mg/l pf PO4 once a week and 20 ml of Ferropol (0.1 mg/l of Fe) 4 days after the PO4.


I’d suggest that these levels are too low. Aim for about 0.5ppm for iron and 3ppm for PO4. Also, given your pH, how is your iron chelated to ensure that it’s accessible to your plants. Do you happen to know what your potassium and magnesium values are? You can get these from your tap water report.


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## Jan_H (19 Feb 2022)

hypnogogia said:


> I’d suggest that these levels are too low. Aim for about 0.5ppm for iron and 3ppm for PO4. Also, given your pH, how is your iron chelated to ensure that it’s accessible to your plants. Do you happen to know what your potassium and magnesium values are? You can get these from your tap water report.


Mg 13 mg/l, K 1.3 mg/l in the tap water, but I measure values 10+ (K is contained in Ferropol)


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## jaypeecee (19 Feb 2022)

Jan_H said:


> 1) Collect rain water - would be unpractical for me


Hi @Jan_H

Fair enough. Rainwater isn't always a practical option for people. Particularly, if you live in a flat/apartment that is not on the ground floor.

JPC


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## dw1305 (19 Feb 2022)

Hi all,


Jan_H said:


> since I replaced the inline diffuser (one month ago), I keep the CO2 on constantly


Looking at the pictures (and thank-you for those) I'd say there isn't any point in worrying too much about CO2, if DIC (<"dissolved inorganic carbon (C)">) isn't your limiting nutrient for plant growth, and I would also say I would be absolutely amazed if your plants aren't deficient in, at least one, of the mineral nutrients.

Because water testing <"is more problematic"> than most aquarium literature would suggest I'd recommend <"adding a complete fertiliser"> and, hopefully, plant growth will improve and your problems should then lessen.

cheers Darrel


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## Konsa (19 Feb 2022)

Hi
thanks for the information and the pics.
Will you be able to post few full frontal tank shots too so we can see how your equipment is rigged. 
CO2 in large tank is not easy to master as distribution is more challenging. Im not CO2 user atm so will leave that for others to advise you on.
You have only easy plants so CO2 is in reality not needed for them to do well.The stem looks like Pogostemon Quadrifolius thats an absolute weed and grows strong even in my low tech but it likes its nutrients and light. 
I am with Darrel that while you try to micromanage your nutrients you are limiting your plants and giving algae the upper hand.Algae needs very little nutrients to grow and you can't really starve them off.Its better to start dosing complete fertilizer to make sure the plants are getting what they need.
Also you didn't mention how often you clean your filter. There is floss in it that will clog fast and reduce the flow considerably.Flow is a major part of having successfull planted tank.It helps distribution of nutrients. You want to see your plants gently moving in all parts of your tank.Usually in CO2 injected tank you want flow arround 10x tank volume and your filter is only 1250l/h if im not mistaken. Maybe look into adding a powerhead or second filter to improve flow.As for changing water I will personally do larger volumes  50-60% a week at least.It will help to up that to 2x ,3x ... a week if you have chance while removing manually as much algae as possible  and  worst affected plant leaves as they will not recover(the stems you can cut off the tops and plant them while discarding the bottom parts) .Your plant mass is quite low for your tank size.You may want to get more fast growing stems and maybe floating plants to help you battle the algae.
You can turn this around but you will need to put some work in.
Regards Konstantin


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## Zeus. (20 Feb 2022)

Jan_H said:


> Mg 13 mg/l, K 1.3 mg/l in the tap water, but I measure values 10+ (K is contained in Ferropol)


Ferropol and EasyLife Fosfo both contain K but relatively low levels. The 10ppm K you have measure is probably mainly from your tap water


Jan_H said:


> Filter: Eheim prodessional 4+ (240-600 l) (trays bottom up: filter pads, Eheim biomech, 2x Eheim substrat pro, fine filter pad)


so output of 1250litres per hour - which isn't enough output for a planted tank. We advise a output to tank size of x10, so 3000L/H. this will be further impacted by Eheim biomech, 2x Eheim substrate pro, fine filter pad which you have fitted. Coarse and medium sponges is all that's needed which will result in a better output from filter. Filter output creates flow in tank. *Flow is King* in the CO2 enriched tank and many folk having issues with their tank are resolved by addressing inadequate flow. If the flow is inadequate so is the nutrient CO2 and its levels will fluctuate, Fluctuating CO2 levels in a CO2 enriched tank is one of the main issues we see in the forums

As others have said
1. A complete fertiliser dosed in abundance - EI levels I would aim for
2. Address the flow and check with pH profile - a stable pH from lights on till CO2 off is aim - I aim for no more that 0.1pH drift
3. Weekly 50%Water Changes (WC) this will reduce the DICs and reset the tank parameters weekly and reduce algae spores in tank- this can also be enhanced with weekly filter cleaning to removed the detritus, once there is no detritus in filter start extending the filter cleaning period
4. Plant biomass looks low also, so more plants or add cheap floating plants/stems whilst the issues are sorted and main plants growing well


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## Jan_H (20 Feb 2022)

Konsa said:


> Will you be able to post few full frontal tank shots too so we can see how your equipment is rigged.


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## Jan_H (20 Feb 2022)

Zeus. said:


> which suggests the Fe is in the form of EDTA along with the Cu and Zn



I have understood that iron fertilizers differ by how well they are stabilized and hence how long they are available for plants. Considering my environment (kH 16/pH 7.3-7.4), is the EDTA chelated fertilizer suitable or not?


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## Jan_H (20 Feb 2022)

Konsa said:


> You have only easy plants so CO2 is in reality not needed for them to do well.The stem looks like Pogostemon Quadrifolius thats an absolute weed and grows strong even in my low tech but it likes its nutrients and light.


I originally had many different plants, but they gradually died and I used the pogostemon to replace them, because only this one grows well. I just wanted to make sure that there is enough of plant mass in the aquarium and I hesitated to buy new plants seeing that I do not have things under control (can get expensive)...


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## Konsa (20 Feb 2022)

Hi
I know what you saying in regards of cost.I am always doing low budget tanks due to my circumstances. 
On your latest pic plants don't look too bad tbh.
The Pogostemon is really one of my favourite plants due to its ease of care.
I can't grow all plants I want in my systems  and have 3 strike system in place.Meaning will try sth 3 times and if it fails will just never bother with it again.This community has helped me a lot over the years not only with good advice but also with reducing cost in the form of free spare cuttings I could try to grow to see if  they will make it with me.
Other easy plants to consider are.
Limnophila sessiliflora or Limnophila hererophilla (they look similar)
Potamogeton Gayi 
Hydrocotyle leucocephala 
Hygrophila Siamensis B53 
Hygrophila polisperma 
Cryptocoryne wendtii both colour forms 
Cryptocoryne beckettii 
... other larger easier Cryptocoryne sp  like Balansae 
Your equipment seems arranged reasonably  well too even if it is a bit underpowered for high tech tank.
The outflow pipe seems to sit a bit high on the surface .You want it just under so it creates some ripple but you don't want it to break the surface in high tech.
Anyway you have good advice in earlier posts so implementing those should help your situation massively. 
You don't have to go all in on the changes.Start slow and give your tank few weeks to react and adapt. 
Looking forward to see how you get on.
Regards Konstantin


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## dw1305 (20 Feb 2022)

Hi all,


Jan_H said:


> Considering my environment (kH 16/pH 7.3-7.4), is the EDTA chelated fertilizer suitable or not?


Possibly not, you are right on the edge of the pH hardness availability zone for FeEDTA. Have a look at our <"pink tint thread">.  Plants need trace amounts of the microelements, so usually the difference is between some or none.

Iron (Fe) deficiency is one of the few deficiencies that is easy to recognise, it occurs in <"new leaves and causes chlorosis">.   Other elements associated with chlorosis are nitrogen (N), potassium (K) and magnesium (Mg), which are all mobile with in the plant and manganese (Mn) which, like iron, isn't. 

I've recommended <"Chempak Sequestered Iron"> in the UK, because it supplies Fe, Mn and Mg.

This is <"iron deficiency"> in a non-CO2 limited plant. You can see the Frogbit (_Limnobium laevigatum_) growth has been good, with <"large dark green leaves">, but the newer leaves have become progressively smaller and paler.  If this had been caused by a deficiency in N or Mg  (or the other mobile nutrients like potassium (K) and phosphorus (P)) then the plant would have been able to shuffle the nutrients to the newer leaves and the older leaves would have shown deficiency symptoms first.





cheers Darrel


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## Happi (20 Feb 2022)

@Jan_H
Am not sure what substrate you are using but I assume it's not acidic and rather appear to look on the alkaline side which will complicate or make the situation even worse especially if your water is already hard to begin with. 

The EDTA Fe might not be beneficial for you and I suggest using DTPA Fe and EDDHA-Fe combined at 0.02 EDDHA-Fe and 0.08 DTPA Fe


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## Jan_H (20 Feb 2022)

Happi said:


> @Jan_H
> Am not sure what substrate you are using but I assume it's not acidic and rather appear to look on the alkaline side which will complicate or make the situation even worse especially if your water is already hard to begin with.


At the bottom is a layer of JBL Proflora Aquabasis Plus (7.5 kg) and it is covered with black aquarium gravel (should be inert).


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## Jan_H (20 Feb 2022)

Zeus. said:


> A complete fertiliser dosed in abundance - EI levels I would aim for


I apologize for my inexperience, what is a complete fertilizer? Do you mean NPK or iron in combination with other minerals?


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## dw1305 (20 Feb 2022)

Hi all, 


Jan_H said:


> what is a complete fertilizer?


Yes, one that supplies all the <"fourteen mineral nutrients"> required for plant  growth. 

cheers Darrel


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## Konsa (20 Feb 2022)

Hi
yes complete fertilizer will contain NPK,  Mg and all traces.
Good example is Tropica Specialised fertilizer but thats costly.
You can easily mix your own ferts using dry salts like many of us here do.
Its pretty easy and very cost effective. 
Regards Konstantin


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## Zeus. (20 Feb 2022)

Jan_H said:


> I apologize for my inexperience, what is a complete fertilizer? Do you mean NPK or iron in combination with other minerals?


Never apologize for something you don't know, only stupid folk fail to ask, even if its just to confirm 

Edit- failed to refresh so missed the last two posts 😅

A complete fertilizer or what we also call an All In One, is a fertilizer that contains everything your plants need NPK + Mg + Trace elements. Have a google for what you can get on the internet and post it or pm me and I will check it out for you


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## Jan_H (21 Feb 2022)

I would like to thank all of you for valuable ideas. I will try to adapt some of them:
1) I see I was too cautious, which resulted in underdosing the necessary nutrients. As the first step, I will just try to increase the dosing of what I still have at home (EasyLife Nitro (which I stopped using in summer when I saw that I repeatidly measured 30 mg/l of NO3 in our tap water), EasyLife Fosfo, JBL Ferropol) and see what happens. I definitely improved CO2 dosing over last month and managed to drop pH to 7.3. 
2) There is a chance that EDTA-chelated Ferropol will not work well due to the pH of 7.3. In that case I will order a new complete fertilizer (with DPTA chelator).
3) I will try to dose in abundance and perform the weekly "reset" by 50% WC. However, I must admit that I do not see it as a long term solution to exchange 150 liters of water on weekly basis....
4) The moment I see improvements, I will get some new plants to increase the plant mass.


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