# Water parameters check please



## Bartash (7 May 2012)

The new journal im doing is a shrimp tank but im totally rubbish with water parameters. I got this from my water supplier to show what i get from the tap

K521 RUMFIELDS WATER SUPPLY ZONE (18300)
Your water is: Very Hard 125 Ca mg/l
http://www.southernwater.co.uk/homeAndLeisure/WhereILive/PDFs/ZK521.pdf

I guess what I really want to know is how suitable the water is that comes from the tap and if i need to do anything specific. I think im just going to start with some neocaridina as i've seen they are easier to keep.

Thanks

Carl


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## basil (7 May 2012)

Hi Carl,

I would advise starting with Neo's whilst you feel your way into the basics of shrimp keeping. 

Get yourself a couple of test kits from ebay, suggest the following:-

pH 
GH and KH 
Ammonia
Nitrate and Nitrate

Try to get the liquid kits as the test strip ones are generally pants IME. These kits will help you to understand the essentials and basics. And once you are confident in maintaining a stable tank, you can venture into crs. It's alot easier if you dont have to tinker with your tap water parameters too much though and in my experience your better looking for shrimp that are suited to what you have.....or, use RO water. But you then need to have a reasonable understanding of water chemistry.

Have a good look and dig around on the forums and see if you can get some decent coloured cherries. I was lucky and landed on some fire reds from another forum member.

Cheers and keep us posted.

Mike.


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## MisterB (11 May 2012)

i would echo the words of basil. you really need to get some test kits to know where your water is at.
test kits are a essential part of any fish/shrimp keepers toolkit.

you can pick up a API master test kit for around £20 maybe less, they have ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, also 2 ph testers (low and high range)

then id also get the GH&KH test kit, API again, for around £7. its always good to know where your hardness is with keeping shrimps.

you can look into geting some substartes that help controll water parmeters, but these will only work to a certain degree, depending on the water you are putting into the tank.

im sure youve seen a member (on other forums not sure if he is on here) called Bungy, he has some nice cherrys for sale and would be a good starting point.


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## ceg4048 (12 May 2012)

MisterB said:
			
		

> i would echo the words of basil. you really need to get some test kits to know where your water is at.
> test kits are a essential part of any fish/shrimp keepers toolkit.


No they're not. In fact, they are responsible for more headaches in this hobby than any other factor. Test kits can't really tell you anything because they are mostly incapable of accurately measuring what they are supposed to measure.



			
				MisterB said:
			
		

> you can pick up a API master test kit for around £20 maybe less, they have ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, also 2 ph testers (low and high range)


This particular brand might be one of the worst of them all. Saddam Hussein himself has been quoted as referring to this particular kit as "The Mother of All Test Kits".



			
				MisterB said:
			
		

> then id also get the GH&KH test kit, API again, for around £7. its always good to know where your hardness is with keeping shrimps.


But the OP already knows what his values are from the water report, and I'm pretty sure the he can tell just by looking at the heating coils of his kettle, or at the water stains in the kitchen/bathroom. Why spend more money when you already know the answer? Have a look at an example of someone who doesn't worry about testing, but instead, worries about keeping the tank clean and keeping the plants healthy=> Ian's nano cube

Cheers,


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## Bartash (12 May 2012)

Thank you for the replies everyone. Im going to leave this tank cycling for another month or so as i am in no rush to add any livestock, i have made up a big container of 50% RO and 50% tap water that im going to be using for my water changes on this tank but apart from that i dont want to do regular water testing. The temp in my tank is a steady 25c, my lights are on timer for 6 hours a day at the moment and im doing 25% water change daily.I use FlorinAxis as my carbon source and i dose dry salts for nutrients I will however be adding  a HOB to the tank because im really not happy with water movement in the tank with just an air driven sponge filter.


thx

carl


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## MisterB (12 May 2012)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

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ok, sorry for trying to help and airing my opinion, i shall just continue to read from now on.


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## basil (12 May 2012)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> MisterB said:
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Hmmmm, interesting advice here   .....but kind of goes against the general opinions of some very experienced and well respected shrimp keepers. Nothing at all wrong with monitoring your water with home test kits and there are some very good kits available. If you are trying to maintain a stable environment, in particular for the more sensitive shrimp, how can you possibly do this without knowing what you are putting back into the tank during water changes etc. Otherwise at best, it's guesswork.

I would strongly advise a test kit. But as I said already, avoid the test strips and go for a decent liquid kit.


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## ceg4048 (13 May 2012)

Yes, it does go against the grain. It also goes against the grain when we advise that nutrients don't cause algae. Do you remember that one? Think about that very carefully and very rationally. Think about the fact that we can consistently keep healthy fish and inverts in a tank being fed regular massive doses of nitrate. Yet at the same time, highly respected fishkeepers and shrimpkeepers are saying that you must rid the tank of nitrate in order to be successful.

People have been programmed to use test kits. The reason for this is that vendors want to sell test kits. It's a very lucrative business. We are programmed to believe that the test kits can tell us more about our tanks than we can discern simply by looking at the tank. We are told to believe that the test kits can control the tank better than we can by following simple rules of plant and animal husbandry. And when the test kit tells us something we immediately respond by running to the LFS and buying some product supposedly designed to fix the problem that the test kit told us about. Does this sound familiar? There is an entire infrastructure built using test kits as it's foundation.

Do people actually understand what pH means. or what KH or GH actually mean at the molecular level? Very few people do. It's a seemingly complicated set of measurements best left to the people who actually study such things. So we assume the test kit manufacturers know, and they instruct us to take action when the test kit reading says "XYZ". So, we put our trust in these little vials and we never actually go through the trouble of learning what's going on. The part that they don't speak about is that the test kits are grossly inaccurate and inconsistent and that these are the last things that can tell you about the stability of your tank. Here's an example; Do you own a dropchecker? If you still have the instructions from the box, have a look and you see where they tell you that you should use tank water in the dropchecker, which of course, is the worst possible advice imaginable for a dropchecker. That's an example of how off the mark highly respected manufacturers can be about their own product.

If you want to maintain a stable tank for your inmates then do all the right things for your plants. Feed your plants, change the water frequently, avoid overfeeding, do not go crazy with lighting, use CO2 wisely. When your plants are healthy then the tank is automatically healthy. The plants, as well as your habits are your foundation, not the test kit. In fact I would go so far as to say that it's even more guesswork using the kits, because they lie. They are that inaccurate.

The OP is absolutely on the right track in his intentions to go slowly and to ensure that the tank is kept clean with frequent and controlled water changes. Any problems that arise can be fixed with a change in procedure. It is cleanliness and good husbandry that will keep you out of trouble, not testing. Testing just turns you into a hamster. Fish and shrimp die because of poor husbandry, not because of lack of testing.

Cheers,


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## MisterB (13 May 2012)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Does this sound familiar?



not at all, you seem to presume alot.

have you ever thought you might put off, or push away new members with the way you talk? your attitude STINKS


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## basil (13 May 2012)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Yes, it does go against the grain. It also goes against the grain when we advise that nutrients don't cause algae. Do you remember that one? Think about that very carefully and very rationally. Think about the fact that we can consistently keep healthy fish and inverts in a tank being fed regular massive doses of nitrate. Yet at the same time, highly respected fishkeepers and shrimpkeepers are saying that you must rid the tank of nitrate in order to be successful.
> 
> People have been programmed to use test kits. The reason for this is that vendors want to sell test kits. It's a very lucrative business. We are programmed to believe that the test kits can tell us more about our tanks than we can discern simply by looking at the tank. We are told to believe that the test kits can control the tank better than we can by following simple rules of plant and animal husbandry. And when the test kit tells us something we immediately respond by running to the LFS and buying some product supposedly designed to fix the problem that the test kit told us about. Does this sound familiar? There is an entire infrastructure built using test kits as it's foundation.
> 
> ...



Not sure I agree on this sorry......but i suppose that's what open forums are about. Discussion.

Good maintenance and basic husbandry are essential in shrimp keeping - agreed. But, are you saying that this is *all* you need and that pH and GH values etc don't come into it? I really can't agree on this, in particular for the sensitive species such as Sulawesi. If you ignore water parameters your're on a hiding to nothing with many species. Square peg into a round hole springs to mind!!



So are you saying that provi


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## ceg4048 (13 May 2012)

MisterB said:
			
		

> ceg4048 said:
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If it doesn't sound familiar then maybe it's an indication that you're not aware of what's going on. Maybe you should keep reading as you promised above.



			
				MisterB said:
			
		

> have you ever thought you might put off, or push away new members with the way you talk?


Yes I think about it all the time. The ones who are put off or who feel pushed away are the ones who have chosen to blindly stick to a predetermined path and are not willing to use their brains. On the other hand there are those that do decide to think rationally. They may not agree, but they are not threatened by other points of view and do not resort to petulance.



			
				MisterB said:
			
		

> your attitude STINKS


Yes it does. Thanks for pointing that out. It so refreshing to have a discussion with those with excellent attitudes though.  



			
				basil said:
			
		

> Good maintenance and basic husbandry are essential in shrimp keeping - agreed. But, are you saying that this is all you need and that pH and GH values etc don't come into it? I really can't agree on this, in particular for the sensitive species such as Sulawesi


Yes mate, I understand what you are saying. What I'm saying is that there are ranges in which fish, shrimp and fish can tolerate, and the ranges are quite wide is some cases. Again, have a look at the thread I referenced earlier. I just used that as an example. The OP of that thread mentioned the pH range from his tap which was on the alkaline side the shrimp never had problems. Later in the thread he started using CO2 instead of liquid carbon and so the pH of the water would have dropped as a result of CO2 injection. The shrimp continued to breed successfully. The OP did very little testing, but he did a lot of water changes and he does mention that the tap water is super hard. If you search the forums, you'll see the same species raised and bred in a variety of GH and pH values. That demonstrates the shrimp are tolerant of a wide range. You'll also see where people using these same water values fail with shrimp. They manically try to maintain some set of values and still fail. So that means maintenance and husbandry are much more important than adhering strictly to some set of parameters. The people who are expert fish/shrimp keepers are excellent at husbandry and they use a set of parameters that works just as well as some other set of parameters. So, the parameters that they happen to use becomes the standard.

Again, the OP of this thread already has data from his water board indicating what the hardness of the tap is. It's very easy therefore, to mix tap with RO at various ratios to get to within any range deemed acceptable. If he does this consistently then the water parameters will be consistent. Neither his shrimp nor his plants cared very much about the parameters. Are the parameters ideal? Doubtful, but "look at the bones.." as the Wizard Tim would say. The tank thrives and is even tolerant of blatant neglect for a few weeks.

What I object to is the insistence that people should automatically run out and spend £30 for a bunch of test kits. That £30 can be used in a lot more productive ways and there are a lot of people who don't really have the means to spend that money frivolously. £30 can buy more plants, or can make the difference in buying a better filter and so on, and so forth. I'm sure that if you really wanted to test your water, you could take a sample to your LFS no? Buy something else there and support them, then have them test it for free. :silent: 

Cheers,


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## sWozzAres (13 May 2012)

With plants it doesnt matter what your water parameters are, the plants will tell you what your missing by how they wilt and die off. That happens over time and you have lots of chances to fix them. With livestock that approach isn't acceptable. Once a shrimp starts to die there is no coming back. If plants were like that there would be alot more people using test kits regardless of their "inaccuracy". Imagine, GH crash and all your plants disintegrate overnight! People would be testing twice a week!



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> If you search the forums, you'll see the same species raised and bred in a variety of GH and pH values.



But those posted values are based on inaccurate test kit readings, then by your own reasoning posted values are meaningless so you can't use them to justify your view that GH/pH is irrelevant.


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## MisterB (13 May 2012)

its dosent sound familiar because that's not how i go about my maintenance ect. you presume again. 

i do use my brain and i do listen, maybe you should think before using your words, and the way you use them, after all you do hold a moderator tag and surly should set some sort of example?

maybe you should take a look at the forum rules again. im sure there's one that mentions being polite and constructive, maybe you should try harder with the ones you believe have "chosen" to stick to a path. 

and agreeing with wozz, and your comment does appear quite contradictory .
i do myself have test kits, but that dosent mean i use them every week, or month does it? again another presumption.


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## sparkyweasel (13 May 2012)

I don't know about the accuracy of test kits, but I have come round to thinking that they are unnecessary. I started years ago when testing pH was considered high-tech, and nobody tested anything else except temperature. I don't think the kits were even available - certainly not from the shop I used. They certainly weren't around when my dad started, and he taught me the basics of fishkeeping. As they became available, and more and more widely used, I started testing regularly, - pH, DH, KH, NO2, NO3, NH, etc. The tests only told me everything was OK, and I knew that anyway  
As the number of tanks increased I reached the stage where one kit was not enough to test them all, and I didn't fancy paying for two kits every time. So I stopped testing again. Fish, including some 'delicate' species, shrimps and plants all thrive either way. 
Of course there are different ways of doing things, and some people prefer one over another.


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## dw1305 (14 May 2012)

Hi all,
Carl, your tap water is very hard, and typically for a lot of the intensively agricultural areas of SE England it has very high nitrate levels. 

Personally I would throw away all the test kits, and just have an electronic conductivity meter. You don't need a pH meter, your water will always be above pH7, and the dKH/dGH will always be high, this is because of the calcium carbonate content the water has picked up from the limestone (probably chalk) aquifer. 

Honestly, honestly even with lab. quality analytical equipment it isn't easy to get any consistency with water testing. I have a lab. with about £100,000 worth of water testing kit in it as well as access to analytical HPLC, AAS etc and it still isn't very useful.

If you can I would up the amount of RO (to something like 75:25 RO:tap), measure the conductivity (probably around 300 microS) and then use that as a datum. Then if the conductivity rises over time add more RO, if it falls add more tap.

cheers Darrel


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