# Random shrimp deaths in mature tank



## Westyggx

Hi, looking for some assistance here please as i have lost several shrimp in the last week. My tank is over a year old so pretty mature but today i saw 3 dead cherries and a dead amano. I have not changed anything in my tank so i have no idea what this could be i think in total i have lost around 20-25 but only just noticed since i removed my background plants and saw no inverts in the foliage. 

I am going to get my water tested tomorrow but wanted to know if anyone has had random deaths with shrimp.

Cheers


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## spyder

My last 2 batches of cherries both went south. I lose them 1 here n there and a batch of 15-20 usually fizzle out over several months.

The last batch even had young but not seen those for weeks, I've given up on shrimp for a few months, maybe try again in the summer.


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## Dincho

Has anything been added to the tank lately? new shrimp, hardscape, plants etc?

How are your nitrate levels?


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## Westyggx

Dincho said:
			
		

> Has anything been added to the tank lately? new shrimp, hardscape, plants etc?
> 
> How are your nitrate levels?



At first i though it was due to the age as many of my shrimp were over a year old but now my tank litterally has about 5 shrimp in out of 50 so i have lost a hell of a lot. I havent added anything apart from calcium and seachem prime which is something i never used to add until the last few weeks.

With regards to nitrates, i am going to the LFS today toget that checked out.

Cheers


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## Viv

I don't think Seachem prime is to blame as I use it for all my tanks and my shrimp are fine. I lose one occassionally due to age in the planted tank but the scale of reproduction means it doesn't make a dent. I started with 20 rcs in March and have about 300 now after having sold 500-600 over that period of time. Starting with 50 you ought to have been knee deep in shrimp by now!

I'm experiencing something a little similar to you in one of my shrimp tanks but I know the cause. I left some sand in when I added gravel and it releases a toxic bubble every once in a while and takes the nearest shrimp with it. Even in this tank the losses don't make a dent on the numbers. This suggests to me that there's been something long term that has affected they're reproduction as well as they're mortality. I hope you find out what's going on.

Viv


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## Westyggx

Thanks for the reply I can confirm that the nitrates are fine after just coming back from my lfs.

Funny you say that about the Sand as I previously had play sand and covered some of it over with akadama soil. To be honest I think it's a mixture between something toxic in the tank (could it be dead plant matter?) I say this as I lost a lot of Blyxa due to lack of light and it all died underneath but I didn't notice.

Cheers


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## Dincho

You say Nitrates are fine, what was the reading?

If you have a load of dead plants then that is going to hike up your nitrates. High nitrates lower the shrimps immune system making them them extremely prone to bacteria infections.


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## Westyggx

He didn't actually give me a number but the chart came back yellow think thats 0-3? If that's makes sense to you? I removed all the plants recently and did the usual 50% change so hopefully onwards and upwards from here?


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## Westyggx

Ammonia = 0
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate = Around 10-13
Ph = 6.1


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## basil

Did the deaths come immediately after removing the plants?


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## Westyggx

Almost yes, I have not had a death I have seen of since the removal and large water change.


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## basil

Westyggx said:
			
		

> Almost yes, I have not had a death I have seen of since the removal and large water change.



I had a similar problem with my crs. Hardly any deaths in 2 years until i decided to trim back and remove some plants. I reckoned disturbing the substrate released some nasties into my tank water and killed over 20 shrimp in the space of 2 weeks. Either that, or the cut stems from some of the plants leached something sinister into the tank. I know anubias is certainly toxic to shrimp so maybe others can cause problems too.


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## Westyggx

Maybe mate i guess we will never know, ovbiously plants take in nitrates (or is it nitrates?) so when i removed the load of blxya i might have had an influx on one of them since there wasnt enough plants to remove it? No idea.. just hope it has stopped now.


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## spyder

basil said:
			
		

> I reckoned disturbing the substrate released some nasties into my tank water and killed over 20 shrimp in the space of 2 weeks.



This sounds most likely. Spike to kill them off but by the time you tested water it's all zero.


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## Westyggx

Found another 2 dead this morning.. thought this had gone.. argh


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## spyder

My second colony of cherries has been wiped out now, not seen any fleas for a good week or 2.

If you ever get to the bottom of this I would be interested in the outcome. Seems your losing them a few here and there as I did.


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## amy4342

I experienced something like this - in my nano tank, shrimps stopped becoming berried and seemed to die off, of natural causes, one by one until the colony had completely died off. Tried everything, raising KH, GH, mineral rocks, changed all the filters and cleaned the RO unit, new plants etc. Nothing worked and any new shrimp added, even cherry shrimp, died within 2 days of being added. Then, the same thing started happening in my 100l shrimp tank! 

I think I've just cacked it though - I changed the substrate (Naturesoil) in my nano last week to ADA Forest Sant Xingu and added Cherry shrimp the next day - I've had no deaths, a few molts and they all look healthy. Just waiting for some to be berried to confirm that everything's ok. I've heard that many breeders change their substrates on a yearly basis, maybe this is why.


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## Westyggx

Hi,

Looking for some answers really, as you can see from my first post i started to lose shrimp some time ago. This is still happening one by one i am still seeing drop offs. My friend who lives down the road has lost all his CRS and alot of cherries too. He cleaned his filter out a week or so ago and gave me the shrimp that had been sucked up, i placed them in my nano at work which had been cycling for over a month. I have now lost 4 cherries in this tank.

This is the water parametres from my waterboard.


Analysis	Typical Value	UK/EU limit	Units
Hardness level	very soft		
Hardness Clarke	1.75		Clarke
Aluminium	36.5	200	µg Al/l
Calcium	8.8		mg Ca/l
Residual chlorine - Total	0.41		mg/l
Residual chlorine - Free	0.35		mg/l
Coliform bacteria	0	0	number/100ml
Colour	<1.13	20	mg/l Pt/Co scale
Conductivity	64.3	2500	uS/cm at 20oC
Copper	0.041	2	mg Cu/l
E.coli	0	0	number/100ml
Iron	7.07	200	µg Fe/l
Lead	<0.694	25	µg Pb/l
Magnesium	0.754		mg Mg/l
Manganese	1.59	50	µg Mn/l
Nitrate	1.04	50	mg NO3/l
Sodium	4.45	200	mg Na/l


Whats up??

Thanks


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## hinch

i've lost all but 3 of my cherries too recently for no reason as far as I can tell tank has been running 3-4 months now nicely mature growing well and all the fish are fine though I can't water test as accurately as you but what tests I can do are all within parameters considered good for cherries 

I think if these last few die I'll just stop bothering with shrimp


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## Dincho

How old is the substrate?


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## Westyggx

The one in my mature tank at home, about 1 year old Akadama, the one in my work nano is about 2 month old Amazonia II


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## darthpaul

You still getting deaths Mike? I am getting random cherry deaths in my Ebi. Had 1 lot of babies appear but last few weeks I have had adults randomly dieing off like you describe.


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## Westyggx

I havent seeny any deaths in a while Paul but that could be because there is hardly any shrimp left in my tank!


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## mlgt

I think is a natural occurance with many shrimp keepers. I bought 6 sakura from Germany 2 years ago and the polulation boomed in my 60l. So much I probably had a few hundred in the tank.

I kept the tank nice and clean, it had lots of moss and a 300lph filter and good tempreture to keep them happy. 

9months to 1 year later I noticed that the shrimps were not getting bigger, or which I found that many had actually died from no reason whatsoever. 

Now after 2 years the population has recovered again and I have over 100 shrimp again, but the colony has never had any addition shrimps added so I believe cross breeding may play a factor in this which causes early death or possibly the quarentine/acclimitisation period just wasnt enough and they suffered something from the transportation process.

Dont give up, What I have done since is actually sold/given alot of the shrimps away to friends and reintroducing a new batch of sakuras from other sources to replenish the bloodline. I kept mine in standard tap water and normal gravel substrate, nothing fancy.

Just my 2 cents


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## darthpaul

I am lucky in my dad has my old 120L tank and his are breeding like mad so I can top my population up if needs be. I have a good amount of juvenile ones at the mo so I am hoping they will be the ones that breed and build the colony as they have only ever known my water.


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## Dincho

Digging up an old post here. Did you ever get to the bottom of this?


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## Westyggx

Hi mate, no wiped them all out! Got a new tank now which is not set up yet so will give some more a try and see how we get on. Cheers


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## spyder

Funny this thread has come up again. I was chatting to an old local breeder, grabbing 20 cherries next week for my 3rd attempt. I think I'll try them in my 60l this time. That tank has been ticking over for a while.


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## darren636

i gave up with shrimp. They just faded away in my tank.


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## Dincho

There are never "random" deaths, there is always a cause!

If the shrimp are dropping off one by one it is usually (but not always) either a bacterial infection or a moulting issue. You need to determine which issue before you can address it, although both of these can be caused by high nitrates.


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## basil

I now always have a bottle of para guard to hand.....just in case of bacterial issues.


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## bigmel

This is just a guess / thought, but isn,t the ph very low at 6.1 Mike ?

we live near each other and both have ultra soft water . My kh is just about 1 from the tap and ph is 7 ish .

I,ve only had mine a few months but they seem to be doing ok touch wood .


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## Westyggx

Mel, what should the ph be for cherries mate? The test kit I have is the strips and there not very accurate to be honest.


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## Sentral

6.4 - 7.6 for cherries, although generally they're usually quite hardy. Very odd, sounds like a bacteria infection perhaps


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## basil

Sentral said:
			
		

> 6.4 - 7.6 for cherries, although generally they're usually quite hardy. Very odd, sounds like a bacteria infection perhaps



Agreed, Cherries are pretty tough and will adapt to moss params. Did you introduce new shrimp / fish before the kill?


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## Nathaniel Whiteside

I may be wrong, but Dincho will give his opinions later I imagine, but I believe that not supplementing Minerals could be a cause? as KH is very low? If my water was that low in KH I would also be checking for PH swings. 

Also you havent stated what your GH is, This could be a factor as GH aids moulting, I would advise a test kit from API.
Or to get CRS instead  

Regards


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## spyder

Dincho said:
			
		

> There are never "random" deaths, there is always a cause!
> 
> If the shrimp are dropping off one by one it is usually (but not always) either a bacterial infection or a moulting issue. You need to determine which issue before you can address it, although both of these can be caused by high nitrates.



Hi Dincho, would you have any idea on nitrate levels that would cause these problems in RCS? I've seen several posts about people with RCS or CRS dosing full EI and having no issues. Also have seen posts from shrimp breeders that won't fert because of this. I was dosing EI levels but only 3 times per week. Macros, Mon, Fri, trace Wed.

I think I may have come down with the bacterial infection. I noticed the males had a rather cloudy abdomen and read up somewhere it could be a bacterial infection.

I think when people say "random" they cannot put a finger on the source. When it's the odd one here and there it makes it harder to trouble shoot, when you have a total wipeout very quickly then it can be easier to pinpoint the problem.

I think moss'd up wood and no ferts/EC for my next attempt.


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## Nathaniel Whiteside

As far as nitrates are concerned, i believe there is no specific figure but i would imagine above 40ppm or anything considered excessive. EI dosing wouldnt be recommended in any shrimp setup as without doubt that if it wasnt killing the shrimp it would stop them breeding.

I use ADA Green brighty & brighty K as instructed on bottle and my Red Crystal Shrimp are fine.
Just use the rule of changing everything SLOWLY.

Any rapid change in PH, Co2, GH & kH will cause shrimps to moult and more often then not die.

Regards


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## Iain Sutherland

How does that reflect in injected tanks whitey?  My ph goes from 6.5 to 4.9 at lights on and have CRS and RCS without issue.. aside from filter casualties that is.


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## Nathaniel Whiteside

Hey iain,

That is a big jump! Do your shrimp breed readily?
 As normally shrimp with co2 injections as a rule are detrimental to shrimp breeding as they normally prefer well oxgenated water.

My shrimp are kept in a no Co2 tank with no ferts added. Willow and peacock moss present with almond leaves present to try boost immune systems/ provide a snack! I also have the spraybar slighty above the surface to increase oxgen levels. But not too much to keep me awake 

I am only an amateur fish/planted tank keeper, but Im trying to share as much as I know,
Dincho is definitely THE MAN. 
I discussed alot with him before I even knew of UKAPS, and he put me well an truely in the right direction.


Regards


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## spyder

Whitey89 said:
			
		

> As far as nitrates are concerned, i believe there is no specific figure but i would imagine above 40ppm or anything considered excessive. EI dosing wouldnt be recommended in any shrimp setup as without doubt that if it wasnt killing the shrimp it would stop them breeding.



Many people are having success with co2 injection and EI and have healthy shrimp colonies. There have been threads about this in the past when it seemed the majority thought nothing of nitrate's and shrimp. I'm sure it was Clive that asked, "what does a nitrate stressed shrimp look like?"



			
				Whitey89 said:
			
		

> As normally shrimp with co2 injections as a rule are detrimental to shrimp breeding as they normally prefer well oxgenated water.


 I think you are getting confused. I would of thought a co2 enriched planted tank will most likely have a higher oxygen saturation than one that isn't. Just because the water is saturated with co2, this has no bearing on it's ability to hold oxygen. It's quite possible and maybe expected, to have higher oxygen saturation with co2 injection than without it.


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## Nathaniel Whiteside

What were the Shrimp in question spyder? as regarding high nitrates I was pointing more toward Crystal red shrimp than RCS if Im honest. I dose pressurised Co2 and Ferts into one of my tanks and they do breed but only seem to hold maybe 5-10 eggs as oppose to my low tech tank where they hold in excess of 30 maybe even 50.

So talking from personal experience, I am stating what I know based on what I have found. Maybe Im one in a million.

Sorry I seem to have worded the Co2 and oxygen statement, not going into enough detail on the matter. 
What I meant to state was that in a Planted aquarium, where the ideal is to keep Co2 at the optimum level, some keep oxygenation to a minimum, eg. low surface agitation and no Airstone. Basically to maintain the Co2 levels.

I was trying to highlight the fact I heard that for successful breeding you need to ensure that oxygen content is at a good level.

Im trying to offer some ideas as to why this has occurred spyder, not claiming I know everything about shrimp because in the grand scheme of things I know very little.

Regards


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## Nathaniel Whiteside

Oh btw spyder, Fantastic looking Rio. Loving the Stauro carpet.


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## spyder

Whitey89 said:
			
		

> What I meant to state was that in a Planted aquarium, where the ideal is to keep Co2 at the optimum level, some keep oxygenation to a minimum, eg. low surface agitation and no Airstone. Basically to maintain the Co2 levels.
> 
> I was trying to highlight the fact I heard that for successful breeding you need to ensure that oxygen content is at a good level.
> 
> Im trying to offer some ideas as to why this has occurred spyder, not claiming I know everything about shrimp because in the grand scheme of things I know very little.
> 
> Regards



It's all good, I'm just trying to consolidate data on the whole shrimp, oxygen and nitrates scene.   

Avoiding aggressive disturbance of the surface is common in planted to tanks to avoid outgassing of co2 yes but the plants should produce enough oxygen to saturate the water column. Once it's saturated with oxygen we get pearling. I was trying to point out that in most cases co2 injection could increase oxygen levels to higher levels than non co2 injected tanks, in theory.

I think I'm going to try and avoid ferting this 60l tank I'm about to clean up and evict the current inhabitants. I have no pressurised system so it'll be slow tech. Will try and avoid liquid carbon too so it looks like plenty of shade and moss.  

I was talking RCS, I can't afford CRS.   

Maybe if I can resist the temptation of ferting and easy carbo I may do a bit better this time if it was high nitrates. But still, bugs me how some people can do both and have stable colonies.   



			
				Whitey89 said:
			
		

> Oh btw spyder, Fantastic looking Rio. Loving the Stauro carpet.



Cheers. it's due a big trim and tidy up. The stauro twigs are showing signs of recovery, 2 weeks after the hard trim.


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## Nathaniel Whiteside

Yes, would definitely agree about the plants producing enough Oxygen if heavily planted.
But if underplanted, and dosing co2 incorrectly or excessively, i think this would present a problem.

I know for sure that a high tech planted tank with CRS is easily achievable, but getting them to breed intensively for profit, could be a a different matter.

Ive got some stauro in my MINI M and i love it. Have you tried cutting it really short at front and leave it grow longer toward the back, to flow into mid ground plants? 

Regards


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## spyder

I've not tried growing it taller myself yet, just hacked off what I had for the 1st big major trim, I've been following and contributing to this thread. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18388&start=60

Back on topic, just finished re doing the 60l Arc. May need to grab a few pots and some stems to finish it off on Sunday. This is my 3rd attempt now and I'm in a fizz over to fert or not to fert. I think in the past I could of been prone to overfeeding too, so will cut right back on that one. Got a tenners worth to collect on Sunday (20+ RCS). Just want to keep them alive and happy in a low maintenance planted tank.


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## Nathaniel Whiteside

Hey,

Its entirely up to you. You could make both work, 
I would be tempted in your situation (which is kind of what  I will be doing soon possibly!)to get a load of branches with a good moss of your choosing and creating a rooty type scape. Coming from one corner, with a smooth pebble substrate running into sand? 

You could use moss net to tie up the moss onto all branches? And provide good cover for breeding doing this if you allow dense growth.

I hope I have made myself clear-ish  

Regards


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## spyder

Tank is done lol.

I used a big old piece of bog wood that had Fissidens, weeping and flame on it. Been sitting in a plastic container in water in the garage over winter. Scrubbed it right back. Sure there's enough bits to get it going again. Also snagged a branchy piece of wood from a nano complete with a little fern and moss.

Will snag a pic or two over the weekend and start up a shrimpy journal.


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## Nathaniel Whiteside

spyder said:
			
		

> Tank is done lol.
> 
> I used a big old piece of bog wood that had Fissidens, weeping and flame on it. Been sitting in a plastic container in water in the garage over winter. Scrubbed it right back. Sure there's enough bits to get it going again. Also snagged a branchy piece of wood from a nano complete with a little fern and moss.
> 
> Will snag a pic or two over the weekend and start up a shrimpy journal.





Ah cool 

Will be looking forward to it! When you have some spare and flame, can you send me some? Will pay of course 
I have a whacking bunch of Peacock moss,I could send some of that your way, along with some low tech hydrocoytle sp. japan.

Regards


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## nduli

Westyggx said:
			
		

> I havent seeny any deaths in a while Paul but that could be because there is hardly any shrimp left in my tank!



Mike, I also live in the Manchester area (bury) and had random deaths in my mature tank from about the time you were experiencing them up until march when I tore the tank down and started again. 

My ph, kh and gh were really low And having spoken to loads of guys and loads of people on specialist shrimp forums I have determined that I was missing key chemicals / solids that the shrimp need.

I started again with some hi grade sakura recently and they have bred as have the crs I bought in late march. The main thing I have done differently is use a Dry mix solution to set the params right for a shrimp tank. Head over to beeshrimp dot co dot uk and check out his gh booster......


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## darren636

my tank is high in gh kh etc. Cannot keep shrimp.


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## nduli

Doesn't have to be high just 'right' 

Tds is very important if yours is too high you may need to bring down with ro water.


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