# DIY all in one fertiliser solution going cloudy



## Rapayich (5 Nov 2022)

I have been messing around with making my own all-in-one fertiliser mix over the past few months but can't seem to get it right. In my solutions I am using:

KNO3
KH2PO4
MgSo4
DTPA Iron 11%
Copper sulphate (Unchelated)
Manganese sulphate (Unchelated)
Boric Acid (Unchelated)
Zinc Sulphate (Unchelated)
Sodium Molybdate (Unchelated)
Potassium Sorbate
Ascorbic Acid
RO Water

Before adding the salts I ensure the water has been acidified to about 2.5pH. I also ensure that the macro and micro solutions are fully dissolved before combining. The solution remains clear for about 2 weeks but then goes cloudy. Note that no precipitate can be seen but it definitely goes cloudy throughout the whole solution. Does anyone have suggestions regarding this issue. Maybe the cloudiness is not a problem and is moreso some sort of bacterial buildup? My RO unit is very old but can still produce water around TDS 5. Solutions are kept at room temp and in a dark container away from sunlight.

Cheers!


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## Courtneybst (5 Nov 2022)

I'm glad you posted this, the same thing happens to my solution!





(New clear batch)




(Cloudy batch)

My plants don't appear to be affected as far as I'm aware but I've noticed this. The mixture doesn't smell bad either, does yours?


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## Rapayich (5 Nov 2022)

Courtneybst said:


> I'm glad you posted this, the same thing happens to my solution!
> 
> View attachment 197310
> (New clear batch)
> ...


My plants definitely are affected. Growing in inert gravel which likely amplifies the effect with no backup supply of nutrients. I also start to see GDA very quickly when the cloudiness starts (indicating that the phosphate is no longer useable). Havent noticed a bad smell. My solutions also dont get that cloudy, although maybe they would if i left them long enough.


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## Aqua sobriquet (5 Nov 2022)

I use the first formula on this site and haven’t had it go cloudy. A very old batch did have some sediment once though.



			James' Planted Tank - All In One Solution
		


10g  Potassium Nitrate
2.3g  Monopotassium Phosphate
4.0g  Potassium Sulphate
8.0g  Magnesium Sulphate Heptahydrate (Epsom Salts)
0.5g  E300 Ascorbic Acid
0.2g  E202 Potassium Sorbate
6g  EDTA Chelated Trace Elements Mix (TNC Trace, CSM+B) 
500ml distilled water


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## Zeus. (5 Nov 2022)

Rapayich said:


> Solutions are kept at room temp and in a dark container away from sunlight.


But what's the room temp ? after all you live in a hot country. In the IFC calculator we advise to only make enough DIY fert to last four to six weeks, even if stored in a cool dark place. The other simple option is to keep the excess premade fert in the fridge or freezer, which will/should prevent the issues you are having. If freezing let it fully defrost/melt to room temp and a good shake before taking your 4 to six weeks worth before refreezing


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## Hanuman (5 Nov 2022)

Rapayich said:


> I have been messing around with making my own all-in-one fertiliser mix over the past few months but can't seem to get it right. In my solutions I am using:
> 
> KNO3
> KH2PO4
> ...


What is the concentration of all the salts in your solution?
What you are experiencing could be a reaction or as you stated, bacteria/mold developing. I recommend you look at the IFC calculator and check the recommended order in which salts need to be added. Also, as mentionned by Zeus, don't make solution too concentrated. This is DIY not commercial so we can't keep these solutions stable long term. Finally make sure you disinfect your container and anything you use to make your fert. I usually either use boiling water or do a bleach bath to remove as much as possible pathogens.


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## Rapayich (5 Nov 2022)

Zeus. said:


> But what's the room temp ? after all you live in a hot country. In the IFC calculator we advise to only make enough DIY fert to last four to six weeks, even if stored in a cool dark place. The other simple option is to keep the excess premade fert in the fridge or freezer, which will/should prevent the issues you are having. If freezing let it fully defrost/melt to room temp and a good shake before taking your 4 to six weeks worth before refreezing


Hasn’t been too hot recently where I am so I don’t think that’s it. I must be missing something in the process of mixing it together. I will check out the IFC calc, yet to do that


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## Rapayich (5 Nov 2022)

Hanuman said:


> What is the concentration of all the salts in your solution?
> What you are experiencing could be a reaction or as you stated, bacteria/mold developing. I recommend you look at the IFC calculator and check the recommended order in which salts need to be added. Also, as mentionned by Zeus, don't make solution too concentrated. This is DIY not commercial so we can't keep these solutions stable long term. Finally make sure you disinfect your container and anything you use to make your fert. I usually either use boiling water or do a bleach bath to remove as much as possible pathogens.


Will definitely do that, did not realise there was a special order for the nutrients. Thank you 

I am interested to know why it is that we can’t make these solutions stable long term? Is it a certain ingredient we can’t get access to or just our equipment and procedures? I have noticed some commercial ferts use citric acid as opposed to ascorbic and some use both. A quick Google suggests citric acid is quite a good chelator. Could this be key in making the solutions viable for longer?

I will also be disinfecting containers from now on. Hopefully this helps.


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## Hanuman (5 Nov 2022)

Rapayich said:


> I am interested to know why it is that we can’t make these solutions stable long term? Is it a certain ingredient we can’t get access to or just our equipment and procedures?


Because we are using weak acids and our environment is nowhere near sterile or at the very least highly disinfected. Also, the salts that we buy are not always the highest grade and can contain contaminants/impurities.


Rapayich said:


> I have noticed some commercial ferts use citric acid as opposed to ascorbic and some use both. A quick Google suggests citric acid is quite a good chelator. Could this be key in making the solutions viable for longer?


Many also use stronger acids like sulfuric acid or others. Commercial producers also add some stabilizers to allow the solution to be kept long term.


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## Rapayich (5 Nov 2022)

I


Hanuman said:


> Because we are using weak acids and our environment is nowhere near sterile or at the very least highly disinfected. Also, the salts that we buy are not always the highest grade and can contain contaminants/impurities.
> 
> Many also use stronger acids like sulfuric acid or others. Commercial producers also add some stabilizers to allow the solution to be kept long term.


 I see, that makes sense. Especially if the closing is mostly bacterial growth rather than precipitation. Do we know what these stabilisers are?


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## Happi (5 Nov 2022)

Rapayich said:


> Ascorbic Acid


have you guys tried without adding the Ascorbic Acid? DTPA Fe alone lower the PH significantly and PH of 5-6 is overall good when making AIO solution. you almost never have to acidify the solution when using DTPA Fe to make AIO solution.

Edit: please see Post #17 and #19


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## Rapayich (5 Nov 2022)

Happi said:


> have you guys tried without adding the Ascorbic Acid? DTPA Fe alone lower the PH significantly and PH of 5-6 is overall good when making AIO solution. you almost never have to acidify the solution when using DTPA Fe to make AIO solution.


I havent tried this Happi. Would the solution be more stable at this higher pH?


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## Happi (5 Nov 2022)

Rapayich said:


> I havent tried this Happi. Would the solution be more stable at this higher pH?


PH of 5-6 is still acidic, we don't have to go low as 2-3 PH just to make the solution stable. also see ascorbic acid and molybdenum reaction.


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## Happi (5 Nov 2022)

Courtneybst said:


> I'm glad you posted this, the same thing happens to my solution!
> 
> View attachment 197310
> (New clear batch)
> ...


the new Batch kind of look cloudy to begin with and whatever caused that cloudiness is just waiting to settle at the bottom eventually. may i ask what chemicals were used here?


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## Courtneybst (6 Nov 2022)

Happi said:


> the new Batch kind of look cloudy to begin with and whatever caused that cloudiness is just waiting to settle at the bottom eventually. may i ask what chemicals were used here?


1g Ascorbic Acid
0.4g Potassium Sorbate

36g Potassium Nitrate
20g Potassium Phosphate
64g Potassium Sulphate
48g Magnesium Sulphate

8g Chelated Trace
8g DTPA Iron


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## Hanuman (6 Nov 2022)

Happi said:


> have you guys tried without adding the Ascorbic Acid? DTPA Fe alone lower the PH significantly and PH of 5-6 is overall good when making AIO solution. you almost never have to acidify the solution when using DTPA Fe to make AIO solution.


That is not my experience with Fe DTPA. Quite the opposite in fact according to the testing I did a few years backs. Fe 7% DTPA pushed PH up a good 1 PH up or more and that is why I advise using 11% or higher to minimize the PH increase.


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## Happi (6 Nov 2022)

Hanuman said:


> That is not my experience with Fe DTPA. Quite the opposite in fact according to the testing I did a few years backs. Fe 7% DTPA pushed PH up a good 1 PH up or more and that is why I advise using 11% or higher to minimize the PH increase.
> View attachment 197363


I use the DTPA Fe 11% which seems to lower the PH of the solution, if someone else have DTPA Fe 11% please test this and verify it. I do not have 7% DTPA Fe so I cannot verify that one.

Distilled Water




Distilled Water + DTPA Fe 11%


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## Hanuman (6 Nov 2022)

Courtneybst said:


> 1g Ascorbic Acid
> 0.4g Potassium Sorbate
> 
> 36g Potassium Nitrate
> ...


Few questions:
1. Does the chelated trace contain Fe already?
2. What is the container size?
3. What is the brand of the chelated traces and Fe?
4. What is the tank volume?

I'm trying to plug your numbers in the IFC calculator to see if anything is off.


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## Hanuman (6 Nov 2022)

Happi said:


> I use the DTPA Fe 11% which seems to lower the PH of the solution, if someone else have DTPA Fe 11% please test this and verify it. I do not have 7% DTPA Fe so I cannot verify that one.


You are absolutely right. I just did the experiment for the sake of science. Here are the results in video for both 11% and 7%. One brings it up the other down. Done with RO water.

Fe DTPA 7%


Fe DTPA 11%


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## Hanuman (6 Nov 2022)

For some reason I had assumed that DPTA 11% would do the same as DTPA 7% but to a lesser degree. This is an eye opener and the PH drop was rather significant.


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## Rapayich (5 Nov 2022)

I have been messing around with making my own all-in-one fertiliser mix over the past few months but can't seem to get it right. In my solutions I am using:

KNO3
KH2PO4
MgSo4
DTPA Iron 11%
Copper sulphate (Unchelated)
Manganese sulphate (Unchelated)
Boric Acid (Unchelated)
Zinc Sulphate (Unchelated)
Sodium Molybdate (Unchelated)
Potassium Sorbate
Ascorbic Acid
RO Water

Before adding the salts I ensure the water has been acidified to about 2.5pH. I also ensure that the macro and micro solutions are fully dissolved before combining. The solution remains clear for about 2 weeks but then goes cloudy. Note that no precipitate can be seen but it definitely goes cloudy throughout the whole solution. Does anyone have suggestions regarding this issue. Maybe the cloudiness is not a problem and is moreso some sort of bacterial buildup? My RO unit is very old but can still produce water around TDS 5. Solutions are kept at room temp and in a dark container away from sunlight.

Cheers!


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## Happi (6 Nov 2022)

Hanuman said:


> For some reason I had assumed that DPTA 11% would do the same as DTPA 7% but to a lesser degree. This is an eye opener and the PH drop was rather significant.


I believe some of the EDTA also lower the PH as well. I will have to test them in my free time to confirm that.


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## Hanuman (6 Nov 2022)

Happi said:


> I believe some of the EDTA also lower the PH as well. I will have to test them in my free time to confirm that.


It does but to a lesser degree than 11% DTPA. It dropped 0.4 PH points. I also noticed it takes more time to dissolve.

Fe 13.2% EDTA


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## Zeus. (6 Nov 2022)

Hanuman said:


> For some reason I had assumed that DPTA 11% would do the same as DTPA 7% but to a lesser degree. This is an eye opener and the PH drop was rather significant.


Intersting, is that for the same increase in [Fe]?
Yet after a quick google they seem to be the same chemical
Maybe @X3NiTH can shed some light on this


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## Hanuman (6 Nov 2022)

Zeus. said:


> Interesting, is that for the same increase in [Fe]?


No, I just grotesquely eye balled a similar amount in the spoon. I was just looking for the PH to either go up or down.


Zeus. said:


> Yet after a quick google they seem to be the same chemical


Yes I can't explain why this is happening. Let's see what X3nith has to say about this.


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## Zeus. (6 Nov 2022)

With the 7% giving a less of a pH drop surgests there is another element bonding to some of the DTPA with maybe a higher bond strength so isn't so soluble and resulting is less of a pH dtop. Stab in the dark 🤣


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## _Maq_ (7 Nov 2022)

Rapayich said:


> I am interested to know why it is that we can’t make these solutions stable long term? Is it a certain ingredient we can’t get access to or just our equipment and procedures?


There are several problems here.
First and foremost, it's chelated iron. Iron is always unstable in solutions. Besides, all chelators are organic acids (artificial but still organic). That means that bacteria and fungi can digest them.
Ascorbic acid is used as an reducing agent (antioxidant). It makes sense if keeping iron in reduced state, i.e. divalent. Bacteria love ascorbic acid. As well as citric acid. Glutaraldehyde is sometimes used as a conservant because it's poisonous.
Anyway, there's no way to keep dissolved chelated iron stable for long. Keeping it in fridge helps. Still, sooner or later it degrades.
Then there's the mess with other salts. They all dissociate in water and cations and anions may recombine to produce poorly soluble salts. Danger is increased when phosphates (anions) are combined with transition metals (cations - Fe, Mn, Zn, Cu, Ni).
There's a good side to that: No matter in which form you add nutrients - even in an 'inaccessible' one - plants hand in hand with microbes will find their way. But! - it takes time. What does it mean? You can use unchelated iron, for example, and plants will find out and take it up. Yet not instantly, the effect is long-term. Besides, a large portion of such an iron will end up wasted within your filter. Often together with phosphorus, and other micronutrients.

The bottom line is that we - laymen - should not attempt to make all-in-one solutions. There are too many risks it would not work as intended. After all, if you are a dedicated plant-grower, you should ENJOY fertilizing, adjusting your formulas and observing the results, and not to seek a one-for-all solution. This hobby does not respond well to one-for-all solutions.


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## Aqua sobriquet (7 Nov 2022)

Rapayich said:


> Will definitely do that, did not realise there was a special order for the nutrients. Thank you
> 
> I am interested to know why it is that we can’t make these solutions stable long term? Is it a certain ingredient we can’t get access to or just our equipment and procedures? I have noticed some commercial ferts use citric acid as opposed to ascorbic and some use both. A quick Google suggests citric acid is quite a good chelator. Could this be key in making the solutions viable for longer?
> 
> I will also be disinfecting containers from now on. Hopefully this helps.


Yes agreed. I’ve seen some Tropica  fertiliser that’s been on the shelf a long time judging by the dust on them and they were perfectly clear and sold in transparent bottles? What’s the secret? It’s also a very bright Green compared to many others.


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## Rapayich (7 Nov 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> There are several problems here.
> First and foremost, it's chelated iron. Iron is always unstable in solutions. Besides, all chelators are organic acids (artificial but still organic). That means that bacteria and fungi can digest them.
> Ascorbic acid is used as an reducing agent (antioxidant). It makes sense if keeping iron in reduced state, i.e. divalent. Bacteria love ascorbic acid. As well as citric acid. Glutaraldehyde is sometimes used as a conservant because it's poisonous.
> Anyway, there's no way to keep dissolved chelated iron stable for long. Keeping it in fridge helps. Still, sooner or later it degrades.
> ...


I am attempting to make an all in one fertiliser solution because it is enjoyable for me . I know it is possible as many companies and other hobbyists have done it before. It has certainly been challenging for me but rewarding as I have seen progress.

Does the potassium sorbate not prevent the mold and bacteria? At least that’s how I have interpreted it in my readings.

Also unsure what you mean by chelated iron always being unstable in solutions. I can’t see how this can be the case if we see so many all in one fertilisers on the market. From memory the DTPA iron I am using says it is stable in solutions between 1.3 and 7 ph. 

The transition metals, yes I definitely think I have a problem with them reacting with phosphate. I believe this may be the reason I see clouding eventually. I may need to switch to chelation of some of these metals.


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## Rapayich (7 Nov 2022)

Aqua sobriquet said:


> Yes agreed. I’ve seen some Tropica  fertiliser that’s been on the shelf a long time judging by the dust on them and they were perfectly clear and sold in transparent bottles? What’s the secret? It’s also a very bright Green compared to many others.


I have read about the bright green colour somewhere but really can’t remember. Either way it must be doable. I’m pretty sure 2hr aquarist ferts have a shelf life of 3 years.


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## Hanuman (7 Nov 2022)

Rapayich said:


> I am attempting to make an all in one fertiliser solution because it is enjoyable for me . I know it is possible as many companies and other hobbyists have done it before. It has certainly been challenging for me but rewarding as I have seen progress.
> 
> Does the potassium sorbate not prevent the mold and bacteria? At least that’s how I have interpreted it in my readings.
> 
> ...


There is absolutely no problem in doing AIO solutions. The only thing is that you need to make a weak solution rather than wanting to match the concentration of commercial products. I am currently using a clone of APT3 that I prepared over a 3 months ago and the solution is still clear. All my traces are unchelated except for the iron which I use FE DTPA 11%.


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## Rapayich (7 Nov 2022)

N


Hanuman said:


> There is absolutely no problem in doing AIO solutions. The only thing is that you need to make a weak solution rather than wanting to match the concentration of commercial products. I am currently using a clone of APT3 that I prepared over a 3 months ago and the solution is still clear. All my traces are unchelated except for the iron which I use FE DTPA 11%.


Nice! Did you just use ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate?


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## Hanuman (7 Nov 2022)

Rapayich said:


> N
> 
> Nice! Did you just use ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate?


Yes, as stipulated by the IFC calculator.


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## _Maq_ (7 Nov 2022)

Rapayich said:


> Does the potassium sorbate not prevent the mold and bacteria?


It is said so. About a half year ago, I've attempted to fight fungi in my tank with potassium sorbate. I've got a fine bacterial bloom...


Rapayich said:


> Also unsure what you mean by chelated iron always being unstable in solutions. I can’t see how this can be the case if we see so many all in one fertilisers on the market


(1) Let's not take for granted that all vendors of such fertilizers are honest and good chemists.
(2) If they are, they may apply methods of which we do not know, or for which advanced processing is required.
It's quite difficult to prove them wrong as long as given element is *present* in the solution. If you detect iron ions and EDTA, it does not mean necessarily that Fe-EDTA is there.
In principle, any piece of rock containing given element can serve as a fertilizer. It's just a matter of time till it takes the form available to plants. It may happen instantly, or in thousand years. Still, the element is there.


Rapayich said:


> The transition metals, yes I definitely think I have a problem with them reacting with phosphate. I believe this may be the reason I see clouding eventually. I may need to switch to chelation of some of these metals.


Chelates are not forming permanent bonds. In solution, they release the metal ion and capture the same one or another one in short periods of time. (If it didn't work like that, 'permanently' bound metal ions would be inaccessible to the plants, because plants take up metals as *ions*!) Therefore, you cannot avoid formation of poorly soluble phosphates by chelating the metals.


Rapayich said:


> I have read about the bright green colour somewhere


Bivalent iron is green, in contrast to trivalent iron, which is yellow-red-brown depending on concentration.


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## Courtneybst (7 Nov 2022)

Hanuman said:


> Few questions:
> 1. Does the chelated trace contain Fe already?
> 2. What is the container size?
> 3. What is the brand of the chelated traces and Fe?
> ...


Hi mate, these are the deets;

1. It does contain Fe, EDTA
2. Container size is 1L
3. Chelated trace is from Aquarium Plant Food UK and the DTPA is from Aqua Plants Care
4. Tank maximum volume is 300L, but significantly less with the huge bit of wood, although I am dosing as if it is 300L.


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## Happi (7 Nov 2022)

Aqua sobriquet said:


> Yes agreed. I’ve seen some Tropica  fertiliser that’s been on the shelf a long time judging by the dust on them and they were perfectly clear and sold in transparent bottles? What’s the secret? It’s also a very bright Green compared to many others.


the bright green color could be due to the iron being in ferrous stage or they simply add dye to change the color. i have some stock solution sitting in the garage for many years which has seen both hot and cold days and they are still clear. i also have seen some solution going bad even while using Ascorbic acid and Potassium Sorbate. the good overall alternative is *Sodium Benzoate* if you want to keep the solution clear for long term. *I would avoid adding Ascorbic acid with the Sodium Benzoate if you choose to go this route. *


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## Hanuman (7 Nov 2022)

Courtneybst said:


> Hi mate, these are the deets;
> 
> 1. It does contain Fe, EDTA
> 2. Container size is 1L
> ...


And I forgot to ask what is the dosing regime? quantity and frequency?
What % is the Fe from Aqua Plants Care?


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## Hanuman (7 Nov 2022)

Happi said:


> i also have seen some solution going bad even while using Ascorbic acid and Potassium Sorbate.


Yes it's not bullet proof. I've seen the same in some batches but I attribute it to contaminated or poorly clean containers among other reasons. For instance the current batch I am working on is still very much clear after 3 months. However, the previous one, which was not even an AIO developed mold or whatnot. I think the quality/grade of the compounds we use is also largely responsible. Some are simply low grade and contain impurities/pathogens to start with, which makes the process even more prone to mold or bacterial development.


Happi said:


> the good overall alternative is *Sodium Benzoate*


What would be the recommended dosage/L?

@X3NiTH what's your view on this?


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## Rapayich (8 Nov 2022)

Happi said:


> the bright green color could be due to the iron being in ferrous stage or they simply add dye to change the color. i have some stock solution sitting in the garage for many years which has seen both hot and cold days and they are still clear. i also have seen some solution going bad even while using Ascorbic acid and Potassium Sorbate. the good overall alternative is *Sodium Benzoate* if you want to keep the solution clear for long term. *I would avoid adding Ascorbic acid with the Sodium Benzoate if you choose to go this route. *


Maybe those solutions that have gone bad are more concentrated than the ones that have lasted?

Is sodium benzoate somehow better? Why is it that the two cannot be used together?


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## Happi (8 Nov 2022)

Hanuman said:


> What would be the recommended dosage/L?


I add about 0.3 gram for 500 ml solution


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## Happi (8 Nov 2022)

Rapayich said:


> Maybe those solutions that have gone bad are more concentrated than the ones that have lasted?
> 
> Is sodium benzoate somehow better? Why is it that the two cannot be used together?


Still had some simple solution go bad on me while using ascorbic acid and some of them even used high quality chemicals.

Sodium Benzoate and Ascorbic Acid risk factors


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## Rapayich (5 Nov 2022)

I have been messing around with making my own all-in-one fertiliser mix over the past few months but can't seem to get it right. In my solutions I am using:

KNO3
KH2PO4
MgSo4
DTPA Iron 11%
Copper sulphate (Unchelated)
Manganese sulphate (Unchelated)
Boric Acid (Unchelated)
Zinc Sulphate (Unchelated)
Sodium Molybdate (Unchelated)
Potassium Sorbate
Ascorbic Acid
RO Water

Before adding the salts I ensure the water has been acidified to about 2.5pH. I also ensure that the macro and micro solutions are fully dissolved before combining. The solution remains clear for about 2 weeks but then goes cloudy. Note that no precipitate can be seen but it definitely goes cloudy throughout the whole solution. Does anyone have suggestions regarding this issue. Maybe the cloudiness is not a problem and is moreso some sort of bacterial buildup? My RO unit is very old but can still produce water around TDS 5. Solutions are kept at room temp and in a dark container away from sunlight.

Cheers!


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## Rapayich (8 Nov 2022)

Courtneybst said:


> I'm glad you posted this, the same thing happens to my solution!
> 
> View attachment 197310
> (New clear batch)
> ...


Just had a thought on this. Is the fertiliser bottle exposed to sunlight at all? (even indirect) The chelated may be breaking down and causing the clouding.


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## Courtneybst (8 Nov 2022)

Hanuman said:


> And I forgot to ask what is the dosing regime? quantity and frequency?
> What % is the Fe from Aqua Plants Care?


I dose 20ml per day with no breaks.

The Aqua Plants Care Fe is 8%


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## Courtneybst (8 Nov 2022)

Rapayich said:


> Just had a thought on this. Is the fertiliser bottle exposed to sunlight at all? (even indirect) The chelated may be breaking down and causing the clouding.


Nope, it's in a cabinet that's almost pitch black.

I also mix it with RO water @Hanuman  if that matters.


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## Rapayich (8 Nov 2022)

Courtneybst said:


> Nope, it's in a cabinet that's almost pitch black.
> 
> I also mix it with RO water @Hanuman  if that matters.


I’m really not sure then. Maybe it was just an error in mixing the first batch. Let us know how this one goes


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## Courtneybst (8 Nov 2022)

Rapayich said:


> I’m really not sure then. Maybe it was just an error in mixing the first batch. Let us know how this one goes


It's happened at least twice now, but I've just mixed a new batch so yeah I'll let you know.

Maybe the container just needs cleaning to remove contamination?


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## Rapayich (8 Nov 2022)

Courtneybst said:


> It's happened at least twice now, but I've just mixed a new batch so yeah I'll let you know.
> 
> Maybe the container just needs cleaning to remove contamination?


could be that too. Do you know which of the traces are chelated in you chelated mix you are using?


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## Courtneybst (8 Nov 2022)

Rapayich said:


> could be that too. Do you know which of the traces are chelated in you chelated mix you are using?


I do not unfortunately.


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## Rapayich (8 Nov 2022)

Courtneybst said:


> I do not unfortunately.


Hmm maybe some of the trace elements are not chelated allowing for bacteria to feed on them or precipitate to occur. Just a guess 🤔


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## Hanuman (8 Nov 2022)

@Courtneybst Thank you. I replicated your formula in the IFC calculator and didn't see any major solubility issue.  The only thing that is a problem IMO is the fact that you are using a sub 10% chelated iron. To that, add the fact that APFUK also uses an 8.2% EDTA chelated iron. Try using a higher % chelated iron like 11%. It is possible that the 8% you are using is driving the PH up and allowing a reaction to happen. At least that's what I experienced in the past. That's why I only use and advise anyone to use 11% which additionally will also drives your PH down which is a good thing.



Rapayich said:


> Hmm maybe some of the trace elements are not chelated allowing for bacteria to feed on them or precipitate to occur. Just a guess 🤔


No. I and many others use unchelated traces with no issues.


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## Rapayich (8 Nov 2022)

I


Hanuman said:


> @Courtneybst Thank you. I replicated your formula in the IFC calculator and didn't see any major solubility issue.  The only thing that is a problem IMO is the fact that you are using a sub 10% chelated iron. To that, add the fact that APFUK also uses an 8.2% EDTA chelated iron. Try using a higher % chelated iron like 11%. It is possible that the 8% you are using is driving the PH up and allowing a reaction to happen. At least that's what I experienced in the past. That's why I only use and advise anyone to use 11% which additionally will also drives your PH down which is a good thing.
> 
> 
> No. I and many others use unchelated traces with no issues.


 I thought you had some issues with clouding when using unchelated traces in the ‘higher’ concentration solutions? After a month or two.

Possibly the chelation of these traces would allow how concentration solutions to last much longer?


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## Hanuman (8 Nov 2022)

Rapayich said:


> I thought you had some issues with clouding when using unchelated traces in the ‘higher’ concentration solutions? After a month or two.


Where did I say that?
In fact what I said above is that my current batch, which is 3 months old, is still clear.
We are doing DIY ferts in a home environment with DIY processes. It's not like in a factory where everything is controlled and were they also add certain agents to stabilize the fertilizers for years. As mentionned by @Happi, maybe you could try sodium benzoate instead of ascorbic acid.
If you wish to have long term ferts I would suggest buying commercial products or the other alternative is to separate macros and traces. Another solution would be to make larger amounts and freeze what you don't need.


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## Rapayich (8 Nov 2022)

I


Hanuman said:


> Where did I say that?
> In fact what I said above is that my current batch, which is 3 months old, is still clear.
> We are doing DIY ferts in a home environment with DIY processes. It's not like in a factory where everything is controlled and were they also add certain agents to stabilize the fertilizers for years. As mentionned by @Happi, maybe you could try sodium benzoate instead of ascorbic acid.
> If you wish to have long term ferts I would suggest buying commercial products or the
> ...


I think it was in another thread. This one I think.





						DIY Fertilizer Formula Recommendation
					

Hello everyone.   I have posted this in a facebook group but it doesn't seem to be going anywhere.  I am tired of paying outrageous prices for liquid fertilizers so I though of making my own with dry salts. I know, there is a ton of info out there and believe me I have been scavenging the...



					www.ukaps.org
				




Also I checked the fert calc and it suggests making more dilute or smaller batches. I may have misinterpreted.

I’ll definitely be giving the benzoate a try along with chelated traces.


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## Hanuman (8 Nov 2022)

Rapayich said:


> I
> 
> I think it was in another thread. This one I think.
> 
> ...


Oh yes I thought you meant in this threat.
Definitely it is recommended to do more dilute batches. This said and I'll repeat again, you don't need to use chelated traces but up to you. I'll cost you more that's for sure.


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## Rapayich (8 Nov 2022)

Hanuman said:


> Oh yes I thought you meant in this threat.
> Definitely it is recommended to do more dilute batches. This said and I'll repeat again, you don't need to use chelated traces but up to you. I'll cost you more that's for sure.


Thanks for all the help Hanuman and great work on the calc


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## Courtneybst (8 Nov 2022)

Hanuman said:


> @Courtneybst Thank you. I replicated your formula in the IFC calculator and didn't see any major solubility issue.  The only thing that is a problem IMO is the fact that you are using a sub 10% chelated iron. To that, add the fact that APFUK also uses an 8.2% EDTA chelated iron. Try using a higher % chelated iron like 11%. It is possible that the 8% you are using is driving the PH up and allowing a reaction to happen. At least that's what I experienced in the past. That's why I only use and advise anyone to use 11% which additionally will also drives your PH down which is a good thing.
> 
> 
> No. I and many others use unchelated traces with no issues.


Thank you so much! That's super helpful. I'll order some 11%. Do you think this reaction could cause some of the Fe to become unavailable for the plants at all? I don't really have any major plant issues except the old holey leaf in some Bucephalandra.

Also sorry @Rapayich  for hijacking your thread!


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## Hanuman (8 Nov 2022)

Courtneybst said:


> Thank you so much! That's super helpful. I'll order some 11%. Do you think this reaction could cause some of the Fe to become unavailable for the plants at all? I don't really have any major plant issues except the old holey leaf in some Bucephalandra.
> 
> Also sorry @Rapayich  for hijacking your thread!


Not being a chemist, I can't tell you for sure what reaction is happening (could be a phosphate-Fe reaction) but no matter which reaction it is, the fact that you have a precipitate means that the newly formed compound is insoluble, which in turns means it can't be used by the plants. You shouldn't use a solution that has precipitated out.


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## dw1305 (8 Nov 2022)

Hi all,


Hanuman said:


> For some reason I had assumed that DPTA 11% would do the same as DTPA 7% but to a lesser degree. This is an eye opener and the PH drop was rather significant.


I think it will be because the 7% DPTA will <"have another metal chelated"> and <"that metal is almost certainly sodium (Na)"> and Na <"is an alkaline (group 1) metal">.  


dw1305 said:


> You can make an iron EDTA solution (using the sodium EDTA salt and iron sulphate), but you can also buy iron EDTA as the monosodium ferric salt (C10H12FeN2NaO8). Sodium (Na) is the least strongly bound element and Iron (Fe) is the most strongly bound one, so you can make any other chelates from the sodium salt, but once you have FeEDTA you can't bump the iron off (it photo-degrades to release ferric (Fe+++) ions in the tank).



cheers Darrel


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## Happi (8 Nov 2022)

Dear Members, 

if you were to use DTPA Fe 11%, it will lower the PH to desired levels and you do not need to add Ascorbic acid or anything else to acidify the solution. you will only need to add some preservative if you want the solution to last for years, but it would be wise to make the solutions that only last few months.

When DTPA Fe 11% is combined with the other unchelated salts, the solution should be much clear and long lasting. i must say that it is even more clear and longer lasting compared to if the solution was made with DTPA Fe 11% and other EDTA salts combined.  

when DTPA 11% Fe and Unchelated salt are combined together. the entire solution is rather Semi Chelated but with much better Chelate in the form of DTPA. under such scenario DTPA will try to grab and chelate other metals as well.


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## Hanuman (8 Nov 2022)

@Happi
I see 2 drawbacks with the above procedure though:
1. One would need to add the iron 11% first to acidify the water before adding other compounds. This is not ideal since it makes it difficult to see any potential precipitate that might happen during the addition of subsequent compounds. This is why @X3NiTH advises adding it at the end.

2. One can only use 11% Fe or above or chelates that do not bring the PH up. In the case of @Courtneybst he is also using APFUK traces which contain 8% and will raise the PH.

This is why we always advise in the IFC calculator in acidifying the water prior adding anything and why ascorbic acid is recommended. This said your way is an alternative and could be used in certain case scenarios.


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## Hanuman (9 Nov 2022)

I'll do a batch with sodium benzoate next time to see how that goes. I assume that potassium sorbate is also not needed if one adds sodium benzoate since it's technically a preservative. Would that be a correct assumption?


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## Rapayich (5 Nov 2022)

I have been messing around with making my own all-in-one fertiliser mix over the past few months but can't seem to get it right. In my solutions I am using:

KNO3
KH2PO4
MgSo4
DTPA Iron 11%
Copper sulphate (Unchelated)
Manganese sulphate (Unchelated)
Boric Acid (Unchelated)
Zinc Sulphate (Unchelated)
Sodium Molybdate (Unchelated)
Potassium Sorbate
Ascorbic Acid
RO Water

Before adding the salts I ensure the water has been acidified to about 2.5pH. I also ensure that the macro and micro solutions are fully dissolved before combining. The solution remains clear for about 2 weeks but then goes cloudy. Note that no precipitate can be seen but it definitely goes cloudy throughout the whole solution. Does anyone have suggestions regarding this issue. Maybe the cloudiness is not a problem and is moreso some sort of bacterial buildup? My RO unit is very old but can still produce water around TDS 5. Solutions are kept at room temp and in a dark container away from sunlight.

Cheers!


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## Happi (9 Nov 2022)

Hanuman said:


> I'll do a batch with sodium benzoate next time to see how that goes. I assume that potassium sorbate is also not needed if one adds sodium benzoate since it's technically a preservative. Would that be a correct assumption?


That is correct


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## Courtneybst (9 Nov 2022)

Hanuman said:


> @Happi
> I see 2 drawbacks with the above procedure though:
> 1. One would need to add the iron 11% first to acidify the water before adding other compounds. This is not ideal since it makes it difficult to see any potential precipitate that might happen during the addition of subsequent compounds. This is why @X3NiTH advises adding it at the end.
> 
> ...


In this case, would you recommend still using ascorbic acid initially to acidify the water and add the 11% DTPA at the end? Or should I now forego one for the other?

Thanks


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## ian_m (9 Nov 2022)

In my experience you do actually need both a preservative and acidifying agent, or else, in my experience, either the iron un-chelates and liquid goes "rusty" and a precipitate forms, or the solution just goes mouldy.  The acidifying agent, ascorbic acid normally, is needed usually potassium sorbate, works best in acid conditions.  Also make sure you use RO or distilled or possibly cooled boiled water, as if you use "harder" tap water it will react with the ascorbic acid raising the pH and nullifying the effect of any preservative used. Or just add more ascorbic acid to be sure.

Anyway, I had some solution I forgot to add acid to and it went rusty and cloudy, from the originally mixed up transparent'ish green. But I dosed it anyway, when the CO2 was on and tank water was likely to be acidic'ish. My theory was the cloudy iron precipitate would react with acidic water to become soluble iron that plants could use. Anyway plants didn't appear to suffer in the couple of months it took to get rid of the cloudy solution.


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## Hanuman (9 Nov 2022)

Courtneybst said:


> In this case, would you recommend still using ascorbic acid initially to acidify the water and add the 11% DTPA at the end?


In my opinion, yes you should acidify the water prior adding anything because your PH might be borderline neutral with the APFUK trace and the 8% iron in it. I can't say for sure but better be safe than sorry. The ascorbic acid wont hurt anyway. You could try with a smaller batch see how that goes. This is the order I would follow if it was me:

Water > Ascorbic acid+Potassium sorbate > Macros > Fe 11% DTPA > APFUK traces

It is possible that the Fe 11% DTPA might acidify the water enough but I have my doubts hence better be safe. If you didn't use APFUK trace mix which contains 8% Fe and instead you used individual un-chelated traces then you could do it the @Happi way by adding the Fe 11% DTPA first to acidify the water and then adding the rest.  The cherry on the cake would be the sodium benzoate to preserve the mix long term.


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## Aqua sobriquet (9 Nov 2022)

Sodium Benzoate sounds like a scary substance from what I’ve read ( I avoid any foods that have it listed in the ingredients).
I might use it in a plants only aquarium but as I have inmates in both of mine it’s not something I’d use.


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## Courtneybst (9 Nov 2022)

Thank you! @Hanuman @ian_m


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## Hanuman (9 Nov 2022)

ian_m said:


> In my experience you do actually need both a preservative and acidifying agent,


That's my understanding as well. One being the Fe 11% EDTA as an acidifier and the sodium benzoate as the preservative. Or did I miss something?


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## Andy Pierce (9 Nov 2022)

In the 'because it's easy' category, I acidfy using acetic acid (2 ml vinegar) with potasssium sorbate (1/8 tsp) as a preservative per 500 ml stock solution - I add to both a bottle of macros and to a separate bottle of chelated trace.  I haven't noticed anything obviously problematic about using vinegar but would in interested in opinions.


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## X3NiTH (9 Nov 2022)

Acidify the receiving water first, always! Adding an FeII compound to neutral pH water containing oxygen there’s going to be an oxidation reaction and while the pH may drop significantly a chunk of FeII is going to be converted to FeIII, FeIII is more acidic than FeII, at some point the reaction stops and you’ll have a stable solution of low pH being a mix of FeII and FeIII. 

If using a Benzoate compound for preservation I’d prefer using Potassium Benzoate over Sodium Benzoate if I were avoiding Sodium. I would also not use Ascorbic Acid for acidification due to Benzene formation which is a Carcinogen with Teratogenic and Neurogenic side effects (the risk is to fauna in the aquarium).

My recommendations for unchelated micronutrient mixes are to use receiving water that is exceptionally low in TDS (ideally Zero) and acidified to below pH4 before any salt addition. I refrigerate my mix and decant to the dosing container when needed. I use dosing bags as my containers (novelty Bloodbags for Vampire Halloween costumes) this helps prevent long term oxidation reactions within the mix due to atmospheric oxygen which in turn hopefully starves bacterial and fungal growth. I don’t add preservatives to my mix, I want it fresh without unnecessary additives, short term longevity is all I need (2-3 months stability outside refrigeration). 

The more concentrate your unchelated mixture the greater the chance for precipitative effects and depending on the ratios of compounds going into solution there may be a charge balance discrepancy and in order for electrically neutral water to balance the charges an amount of precipitation of compounds is guaranteed.


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## dw1305 (9 Nov 2022)

Hi all,


X3NiTH said:


> The more concentrate your unchelated mixture the greater the chance for precipitative effects and depending on the ratios of compounds going into solution there may be a charge balance discrepancy and in order for electrically neutral water to balance the charges an amount of precipitation of compounds is guaranteed.


That one. 

cheers Darrel


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## Aqua sobriquet (9 Nov 2022)

X3NiTH said:


> Acidify the receiving water first, always! Adding an FeII compound to neutral pH water containing oxygen there’s going to be an oxidation reaction and while the pH may drop significantly a chunk of FeII is going to be converted to FeIII, FeIII is more acidic than FeII, at some point the reaction stops and you’ll have a stable solution of low pH being a mix of FeII and FeIII.
> 
> If using a Benzoate compound for preservation I’d prefer using Potassium Benzoate over Sodium Benzoate if I were avoiding Sodium. I would also not use Ascorbic Acid for acidification due to Benzene formation which is a Carcinogen with Teratogenic and Neurogenic side effects (the risk is to fauna in the aquarium).
> 
> ...


Sounds good. 👍If you get a moment perhaps you’d do a tutorial or a “dummies” guide of your process? We like pictures as well so feel free to add anything you feel relevant.


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## Happi (9 Nov 2022)

X3NiTH said:


> Potassium Benzoate over Sodium Benzoate if I were avoiding Sodium


Never tried the potassium Benzoate before so can't comment on that but sodium from 0.3 gram sodium benzoate only adds about 0.01 ppm Na if the solution was based on 500 ml, 20 ml per 50 gallon. 

Other chelated salt adds much more Na than Sodium Benzoate that we use for our stock solution.


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## Hanuman (20 Nov 2022)

Done my due. Ready for the next century. @Happi .


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## Aqua sobriquet (20 Nov 2022)

Just a thought but could you use Citric Acid instead of Ascorbic Acid and/or Potassium Sorbate in an AIO mix?





						Citric Acid: One of The Most Important Preservatives in The World
					

Our team at FBC Industries highlights the importance of citric acid to food preservatives. Learn more about his process and our products and solutions. Contact us.




					fbcindustries.com


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## plantnoobdude (20 Nov 2022)

Aqua sobriquet said:


> Just a thought but could you use Citric Acid instead of Ascorbic Acid and/or Potassium Sorbate in an AIO mix?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


@Hufsa has tried this. 
I have as well, I use 0.45grams per liter I think based on a conversation with her.


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## Aqua sobriquet (20 Nov 2022)

Thanks, I may try that next time. 0.45g per litre sounds a bit low?  The recipe I follow uses 0.5g of Ascorbic Acid and 0.2g of Potassium Sorbate for a 500ml mix.
This is the full recipe:
10g  Potassium Nitrate
2.3g  Monopotassium Phosphate
4.0g  Potassium Sulphate
8.0g  Magnesium Sulphate Heptahydrate (Epsom Salts)
0.5g  E300 Ascorbic Acid
0.2g  E202 Potassium Sorbate
6g  EDTA Chelated Trace Elements Mix (TNC Trace, CSM+B) 
500ml distilled water


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## Hanuman (20 Nov 2022)

Aqua sobriquet said:


> Just a thought but could you use Citric Acid instead of Ascorbic Acid and/or Potassium Sorbate in an AIO mix?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes you can. You can also use vinegar if you fancy that. That's what @GreggZ does or if you are a lab enthusiast, you can use some sulfuric acid, but we all know the dangers involved with strong acids.


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