# TDS + immediate dose



## JoshP12 (8 Dec 2019)

I am slowly accumulating the toys that we all have and the most recent was a TDS meter. On its own, it doesn't tell us much, but in conjunction with all of our other tests, I think there is some merit ... or if only to confirm for the first few times that we do add to the tank is actually getting added in the way we think. 

(I know the following TDS is too high and am in the process of balancing some nutrients and fixing it in the aquarium -- if anyone wants to weigh in, I'd appreciate that too).

My TDS meter read about 807 ppm and then upon adding some of my homebrew potassium sulphate solution it shot up to about 880 ppm ... does that mean that I dosed about 70 ppm of potassium  ?!?!?!?!

Side note: I usually measure it out properly but was in a rush during preparation and just threw in a chunk this time -- the excess SHOULD have precipitated out ... but I see no precipitate in my bottle. I am not worried with a high dosage of potassium based on the things I have read on this forum, but I don't want to waste the salt.

Cheers,
Josh


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## jaypeecee (8 Dec 2019)

Plants234 said:


> My TDS meter read about 807 ppm and then upon adding some of my homebrew potassium sulphate solution it shot up to about 880 ppm ... does that mean that I dosed about 70 ppm of potassium  ?!?!?!?!



Hi @Plants234 

According to my calculations, you added close on 22ppm of potassium. I'll re-check my calculation and @dw1305 will correct me, if I'm wrong.

BTW, welcome to UKAPS!

JPC


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## jaypeecee (8 Dec 2019)

Plants234 said:


> I am not worried with a high dosage of potassium based on the things I have read on this forum, but I don't want to waste the salt.



Hi @Plants234

Take a look at https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/excess-potassium-problems.52216/

JPC


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## Zeus. (8 Dec 2019)

Plants234 said:


> the excess SHOULD have precipitated out ... but I see no precipitate in my bottle



It only precipitates out when the water is saturated  the saturation point is mineral, temp and other minerals in the water dependant also- also think pressure has an effect on the saturation point also as this effects the boiling point of the water too


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## JoshP12 (8 Dec 2019)

Hmm... I’m not surprised that potassium concentration will affect uptake tank of other nutrients —> I suppose experiment and try to find a balance ... more and more I want to do a giant water change with the balanced nutrient distribution that I want ... but I think it should do several mini ones instead slowly finding that balance.

@jaypeecee thanks for these responses: could you show how you deduced 22ppm from a 70ppm tds increase?

@Zeus. I did boil the solution and felt certain that it would be super saturated, but I guess not!!


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## jaypeecee (8 Dec 2019)

Hi @Plants234

You'll have to forgive me for using old terminology. But, here goes:

Atomic weight of potassium (K) = 39
Atomic weight of sulphur (S) = 32
Atomic weight of oxygen (O) = 16

I have assumed that you used the anhydrous version of potassium sulphate, i.e. *KSO4**. So, total atomic weight = 39 + 32 + (16 x 4) = 135. Thus, the proportion of potassium (K) is 39/135 = 0.3. Therefore, total potassium is (880 - 807) x 0.3 = 73 x 0.3 = 22 (within a gnat's whisker).

It would be nice to get this confirmed by someone else but that's how I arrived at the result that I posted.

JPC

** EDIT: please see my next post in which I've hopefully corrected the error above.*


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## jaypeecee (8 Dec 2019)

Hi @Plants234 

I have just spotted an error in my calculation. Potassium sulphate is, of course, K2SO4. So, the corrected figure will be twice my previous figure, i.e. 44ppm.

Sorry about that!

JPC


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## Zeus. (8 Dec 2019)

*K2SO4**. So, total atomic weight = (39x2) + 32 + (16 x 4) = 174. Thus, the proportion of potassium (K) is 78/174 = 0.45. Therefore, total potassium is (880 - 807) x 0.45 = 73 x 0.45 = 32ppm potassium (K) approx

Think you forgot the increase in the total molecular mass @jaypeecee


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## jaypeecee (8 Dec 2019)

Zeus. said:


> Think you forgot the increase in the total molecular mass @jaypeecee



Hi @Zeus 

Thanks for that. The important thing is that @Plants234 now has an answer to the question posed.

JPC


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## dw1305 (8 Dec 2019)

Hi all,





Plants234 said:


> My TDS meter read about 807 ppm and then upon adding some of my homebrew potassium sulphate solution it shot up to about 880 ppm ... does that mean that I dosed about 70 ppm of potassium  ?!?!?!?!
> 
> Side note: I usually measure it out properly but was in a rush during preparation and just threw in a chunk this time -- the excess SHOULD have precipitated out ... but I see no precipitate in my bottle. I am not worried with a high dosage of potassium based on the things I have read on this forum, but I don't want to waste the salt.


Welcome. Don’t to worry too much.

The “ppm TDS” measurement you get from TDS meter isn’t exactly what you might think, it is actually an electrical conductivity measurement, from which ppm TDS is estimated. How salts (as ions) effect conductivity depends upon the salt, I don’t know the exact values for K+ and SO4–, but I can find <“them”>.

Potassium salts are all soluble, so you won’t get precipitates forming until you’ve added a lot. When I say a lot we are talking solutions much saltier than sea water.

Cheers Darrel


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## Zeus. (8 Dec 2019)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Zeus
> 
> Thanks for that. The important thing is that @Plants234 now has an answer to the question posed.
> 
> JPC



You did all the work M8 I just checked your maths and spotted a error- without your post I would of forgot how to do it withouting a google  

and like Darrels says above a TDS pen is not an absolute measure of the ppm anyway so could be 22 or 44ppm anyway


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## JoshP12 (8 Dec 2019)

@jaypeecee @Zeus. thank you both! 

For what it’s worth, I totally forgot about sulphate contributing to the tds! Our calculations are correct!! 

Here was mine after some thought and using all of your data: 

molar mass of potassium sulphate: 174 g/mol 
Molar mass of potassium contribution: 78 g/mol 

percent contribution: 78g/mol / 174 g/mol = .448 ~ .45 (same as yours) 

concentration in ppm = mg of solute/ litres 
73 ppm (tds increase) = mg of solute/37.8 litres 
mg of solute = 2759.4 
mg composition of potassium = 2759.4 mg * .44 
= 1236.97 mg 

Then back (that much potassium dissolved in 10 gallons of water) ... 1236.97 mg / 37.8 L = 32.7 ppm 

I hope it’s ok I shared my computations too - just in case they are not sound. 


Thanks a lot !


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## Geoffrey Rea (8 Dec 2019)

Plants234 said:


> I know the following TDS is too high



Too high for what?


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## JoshP12 (8 Dec 2019)

@dw1305 @Geoffrey Rea 


Geoffrey Rea said:


> Too high for what?



Well this is where I started thinking after reading both these posts --> it seems natural that between water changes my tds goes up ... and based on the fact that my water change water already has a 400+ PPM TDS just with remineralizing to KH 4 and a bit of magnesium that I don't think it's really that bad for the fish and plants. 

I do not use RO; my TDS out of the tap is about 160 ppm. 

I don't need to stress over this, eh? 

There comes out the Canadian ... haha.


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## Geoffrey Rea (8 Dec 2019)

TDS here is over 400ppm out of the tap. Until there’s a problem there isn’t a problem. Not to be coy and all for understanding, but data is just data without context.


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## jaypeecee (8 Dec 2019)

dw1305 said:


> How salts (as ions) effect conductivity depends upon the salt, I don’t know the exact values for K+ and SO4–...



Hi Guys,

Just discovered this:

https://www.lenntech.com/calculators/tds/tds-ec_engels.htm

Looks like a very useful resource.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (8 Dec 2019)

Hi @Plants234 

So far in this thread, we don't appear to have mentioned fish or any other tank inhabitants. In view of my errors above, please double-check my conversions that follow. I reckon that 800ppm TDS is around 1250 microSiemens/cm. I keep my tanks at 400 - 550 microSiemens/cm and I have softwater fish. Even then, my figures are a tad on the high side. I certainly wouldn't want to keep them in harder water such as what you are now seeing. But, you say that the TDS from your tap is 160ppm (250 microS/cm). So, one question is - which fish and/or invertebrates do you want to keep?

JPC


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## JoshP12 (8 Dec 2019)

@jaypeecee

The inhabitants are 7 neon tetras and 2 rainbow gobys ... which require very different parameters --> have made lots of mistakes on this tank so far.

my tds meter measures in microS so yep your numbers are on (I converted them to ppm for this post).

The tetras have been really healthy overall (except today I noticed a bit of rapid gasping because I upped my co2 ... reduced it just now, just a bit, and will observe what happens).

edit: healthy now!

If this thread gets too far from the original post, just let me know.

Josh


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## dw1305 (9 Dec 2019)

Hi all,





Plants234 said:


> Then back (that much potassium dissolved in 10 gallons of water) ... 1236.97 mg / 37.8 L = 32.7 ppm


That looks right. You can always check with the <"Rotala Butterfly nutrient calculator">.





Plants234 said:


> my TDS out of the tap is about 160 ppm.





Plants234 said:


> and based on the fact that my water change water already has a 400+ PPM TDS just with remineralizing to KH 4 and a bit of magnesium


I'm not sure about this. I just can't see how your TDS has risen that much with just the addition of the salts to raise dKH? From <"James' Planted Tank"> 





> 1 dGH = 7.2mg/l Ca++
> 1 dGH = 4.3mg/l Mg++
> 
> 1.5g NaHCO3 in 25 litres of water = 2 dKH
> ...





Plants234 said:


> The tetras have been really healthy overall (except today I noticed a bit of rapid gasping because I upped my co2 ... reduced it just now, just a bit, and will observe what happens) edit: healthy now!.


Do you have a <"drop checker">?

cheers Darrel


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## JoshP12 (9 Dec 2019)

@dw1305

For context: my kh out of tap is almost 0. I buffer kh up to 4 dkh with sodium bicarbonate (have potassium bicarbonate on the way so I don’t overload my tank with sodium) and for that last test, I had also added 5 ppm of magnesium sulphate pentahydrate (epsom salt) for my GH. 

Drop checker in mail right now! I have been doing ph kh tests to cross reference.

I also contacted the people who sold me the ph and tds pen ... they may be faulty ... sigh ... new ones on the way.


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## dw1305 (9 Dec 2019)

Hi all, 
Best of luck and please keep us informed of how things are progressing. 

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee (9 Dec 2019)

Plants234 said:


> I also contacted the people who sold me the ph and tds pen ... they may be faulty ... sigh ... new ones on the way.



Hi @Plants234 

As the supplier has let you down, why not ask them to provide free calibration fluids for the pH and TDS pen? You need to be confident that you can rely on the figures that each of these show. Having incorrect figures is as bad as/worse than having no figures. Out of interest, what is the manufacturer's name and model number of each of these products?

JPC


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## JoshP12 (10 Dec 2019)

Howdy @jaypeecee,

I tested the TDS meter today in distilled water and it read 0 -- I think just the ph pen was wonky, but I am happy with the customer service so far. 

Along the vein of TDS: my aquarium is down to about 800 ish ppm ... I think with water changes and balanced remineralization, I can get it to 500-600 with my tap water -- should be good enough, I think. 

It is a Vivosun product --> I'll let you know how the new ph pen works. I am hoping the product turns out good as they have a nice light for sale too.

Josh


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## jaypeecee (11 Dec 2019)

Plants234 said:


> It is a Vivosun product --> I'll let you know how the new ph pen works. I am hoping the product turns out good as they have a nice light for sale too.



Hi @Plants234 

In my professional opinion, no-one can make a trustworthy pH meter for $12.99, which is the price shown on the Vivosun web site. TDS meters are different as the electronics circuitry is much simpler and the electrode material much cheaper. I'm not making this comment out of snobbishness as that is not my scene. I just want to draw this to your attention. An alternative would be a narrow-range pH aquarium test kit.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (11 Dec 2019)

Hi @Plants234 

Examples of narrow-range pH test kits are:

https://www.jbl.de/en/products/detail/8643/jbl-proaquatest-ph-60-76

https://www.jbl.de/en/products/detail/8646/jbl-proaquatest-ph-74-90

JPC

Note: I have no affiliations whatsoever with JBL.


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## sparkyweasel (11 Dec 2019)

Plants234 said:


> I have been doing ph kh tests to cross reference.


A lot of people seem to go astray with that sort of thing.
If you explain what tests you do, how, and what you are trying to achieve, some-one will spot any flaws there may be in the procedure. If it's really obvious it might even be me that spots it


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## jaypeecee (11 Dec 2019)

Plants234 said:


> Drop checker in mail right now! I have been doing ph kh tests to cross reference.



Hi @Plants234 

From these two sentences, would I be right in thinking that you have used the well-known KH/pH/CO2 table to estimate the dissolved CO2 concentration in your tank? If there are other acids and buffers in the aquarium water, this table can give misleading results.

JPC


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## JoshP12 (12 Dec 2019)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Plants234
> 
> From these two sentences, would I be right in thinking that you have used the well-known KH/pH/CO2 table to estimate the dissolved CO2 concentration in your tank? If there are other acids and buffers in the aquarium water, this table can give misleading results.
> 
> JPC




I have!! I have been testing kh and ph regularity ... I brought the kh in my aquarium up over the past few weeks by buffering up water change water (I wanted kh of 4 degrees). However, I removed my almond leaf (and some peat) from the filter so that I wouldn’t have any of those acids to see the true co2 concentration ph drop. 

I am thinking this drop checker will help... in a 10 gallon (doing this for the first time) I’m basically dicing with death because one small adjustment on the needle valve could throw my ppms off more so than in a 100 gallon ... lol.


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## JoshP12 (12 Dec 2019)

sparkyweasel said:


> A lot of people seem to go astray with that sort of thing.
> If you explain what tests you do, how, and what you are trying to achieve, some-one will spot any flaws there may be in the procedure. If it's really obvious it might even be me that spots it




Haha! Thanks!
 I’ve just been testing kh and ph before the co2 is on, 2 hours after ... mid day ... at the end ... and when co2 has been off for a while.

I seem to be getting a solid drop from about 7.8/7.6 to about 6.6/6.8 ... it actually dipped lower and that’s when i saw my fish gasp. I dropped it and the last few days they have been ok. 

I’ll update how the drop checker goes. 

Along with those tests, I finally mixed a batch of perfect water change water (which I should have started with when I cycled the aquarium) with GH=6/7 and kh=4 (both in degrees) ... with calcium:magnesium on a 3:1/2:1 and the carbonates with potassium cation (reduce my dosing). 


So let’s see. 
After testing my tds in this batch I am close to 500microseimens, meaning I’ll actually be in a decent range to keep my neon tetras and gobies happy ... potentially I could increase the livestock too.


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## JoshP12 (12 Dec 2019)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Plants234
> 
> In my professional opinion, no-one can make a trustworthy pH meter for $12.99, which is the price shown on the Vivosun web site. TDS meters are different as the electronics circuitry is much simpler and the electrode material much cheaper. I'm not making this comment out of snobbishness as that is not my scene. I just want to draw this to your attention. An alternative would be a narrow-range pH aquarium test kit.
> 
> JPC


That makes sense —> The tds meter seems to be ok. 

I reverted back to 2 drops of the ol’ blue solution.


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## JoshP12 (12 Dec 2019)

There’s the tank by the way (just put the checker in so we will see if it changes tomorrow).


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## dw1305 (12 Dec 2019)

Hi all,





Plants234 said:


> After testing my tds in this batch I am close to 500microseimens,





Plants234 said:


> I finally mixed a batch of perfect water change water (which I should have started with when I cycled the aquarium) with GH=6/7 and kh=4 (both in degrees) ... with calcium:magnesium on a 3:1/2:1 and the carbonates with potassium cation (reduce my dosing).


I'd honestly stop trying to mix the <"perfect water">. 

Because you are starting from water that is low in dissolved solutes you have an advantage. If you want to add a bit of hardness (dGH/dKH) that is OK, but you only <"need a portion of what you are adding at the moment">.

Have a look at <"New high tech..."> as well.





Plants234 said:


> However, I removed my almond leaf (and some peat) from the filter so that I wouldn’t have any of those acids to see the true co2 concentration ph drop.





jaypeecee said:


> to estimate the dissolved CO2 concentration in your tank? If there are other acids and buffers in the aquarium water, this table can give misleading results.


I'm not a CO2 user, but I agree with the others. 

The pH ~  CO2 ~ HCO3 equilibrium chart only works for a drop checker with 4dKH solution. This is because of the air gap (across which only dissolved gases can diffuse), the colour change just measure the CO2 that diffuses across the gap into the solution.

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee (12 Dec 2019)

Plants234 said:


> I seem to be getting a solid drop from about 7.8/7.6 to about 6.6/6.8 ... it actually dipped lower and that’s when i saw my fish gasp. I dropped it and the last few days they have been ok.



Hi @Plants234 

Please take a look at:

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/why-advise-a-1ph-drop.58798/

JPC


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## JoshP12 (13 Dec 2019)

Such great information in all of those links ... they lead me down the rabbit hole. I want to thank you guys for sharing those.



dw1305 said:


> Hi all,I'd honestly stop trying to mix the <"perfect water">. Because you are starting from water that is low in dissolved solutes you have an advantage. If you want to add a bit of hardness (dGH/dKH) that is OK, but you only <"need a portion of what you are adding at the moment">.



Just trying to understand - you can use any water you want for an aquarium and of course we have cheaper alternatives (tap) and more expensives ones (RO). RO provides us the ability to do "science" and literally control what is in the water we have; throw purigen in your filter, and you've got nothing but what you put in (hopefully). Tap water is good too (I use it), but mine has near 0 KH, so I have no buffering ability and without that my pH will plummet from CO2 and the denitrification process (add almond leaf and peat for health of the fish and plant purposes) and you have a tank that is going to crash. Your suggestion of remineralizing to 2dkH (let's say with cations that contribute to GH: Mg + Ca) gets around the crash factor that I suggested (and may give a few dGH -- can you comment what the equivalent might be?), but why not 4dkH (please don't say but why 4kH when 2dkH works ... lol)?


A pervasive trend in your posts suggest conductivity being a thing to look for; can you elaborate on the benefits/detriments and implications of conductivity levels for me? An example was from one of linked posts above, "adding a neutral salt (like KCl) definitely works to stabilise the reading on a pH meter" ... how?




dw1305 said:


> The pH ~  CO2 ~ HCO3 equilibrium chart only works for a drop checker with 4dKH solution. This is because of the air gap (across which only dissolved gases can diffuse), the colour change just measure the CO2 that diffuses across the gap into the solution.



The drop checker changed to the same color as the ph in my aquarium: either the ph indicator is very inaccurate (possible and there are minimal acids in my aquarium) or there are no other contributing acids in my aquarium (I should add - or compounds that form hydronium or bacterias etc that form h+ as a result of their mechanisms ). *My intuition tells me that the both of those situations are not the likely ones: can someone enlighten me as to whether or not things (biological or molecular - denitrification excluded) form acidic compounds in our aquariums rendering the necessity of drop checkers to verify CO2 levels (which @jaypeecee finds less useful)?  *

@jaypeecee , you mention "this, in conjunction with a KH of 3.8, equates to 45 ppm of CO2. None of my fish were harmed in any way whatsoever" ... in conjunction with my rabbit hole digging through several of Barr's posts, this leads me to believe that you have a higher concentration of O2 to be able to pump the CO2 and be "ok" ... *Question: what dictates the maximum O2 and CO2 in an aquarium --> these gases are in equilibrium with the atmosphere but how can we dissolve more O2 in the water to be able to have more CO2 and NOT affect fish health (Barr suggests using a wet/dry sump --> is this the best way? Air stone probably wouldn't be so good.) 

EDIT: hmmm ... http://butane.chem.uiuc.edu/pshapley/GenChem1/L23/web-L23.pdf Henry's law? But how can we get more oxygen without losing too much CO2 at the surface? I have 2 HOB filters 1 in the back and 1 on the side (to pick up the awkward angle ... flow issue from hardscape). 
*

I am also interested in how osmotic pressure with fishies work (if anyone has some nice links) and the role that gasses play in this ... I've read both arguments regarding the ph swings, and I'd like to get to the root of it!!!

Cheers,
Joshua


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## JoshP12 (13 Dec 2019)

I suppose this https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/leaving-out-gh-booster-from-ei-dosing.51856/#post-518594 in conjunction with https://www.researchgate.net/profil...ons-between-plant-nutrients-Interaction-A.png from @dw1305 suggests that I do not need to have such a high GH in my water change water ... any thoughts?


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## dw1305 (13 Dec 2019)

Hi all, 





Plants234 said:


> so I have no buffering ability and without that my pH will plummet from CO2 and the denitrification process (add almond leaf and peat for health of the fish and plant purposes) and you have a tank that is going to crash


 Yes, this is the conventional view, but it was based on our "best guess" and the bacteria that we thought were responsible for nitrification. 

Have a look at page 4. of <"Bedside Aquarium"> for some further discussion. 

I don't think you have to worry as much about the <"tank crash" scenario in planted tanks>. When you get acidification and fish death they are both symptoms of underlying problems, rather than one having directly caused the other.

The main point would be that scientific advances in the last fifteen years have identified a huge range of nitrifying organism, many of which belong to the Archaea, and these don't have the same requirement for high alkalinity and high ammonia loadings. We now know that _Nitrobacter winogradskyi,_ <"the bacteria that we thought was responsible for the oxidation of ammonia">, doesn't actually occur in aquarium filters at all.





Plants234 said:


> Your suggestion of remineralizing to 2dkH (let's say with cations that contribute to GH: Mg + Ca) gets around the crash factor that I suggested (and may give a few dGH -- can you comment what the equivalent might be?), but why not 4dkH (please don't say but why 4kH when 2dkH works ... lol)?


I honestly don't know where the lowest "safe" level of dGH/dKH is. I use rain-water in the tanks, but I live in an area where it is all limestone and even in the winter our rain-water picks some dGH/dKH from dust etc. I never have source water of less than about 30 microS, and ~2 dGHdKH. 

Rivers like the Rio Negro will have conductivity values  of less than 10 microS., so some fish are adapted to very low levels of solute.





Plants234 said:


> Can you elaborate on the benefits/detriments and implications of conductivity levels for me?


Conductivity definitely isn't the parameter that we would like to know, but it is about the only meter or test where you can just dip it in the tank water and get an accurate, and repeatable value. These values are linear over many orders of magnitude from RO water all the way to sea water. 

So far so good, but conductivity doesn't tell you the nature of the ions in solution, just their amount. There are exceptions, but for the majority of natural fresh water the most frequent ions are Ca++ and HCO3-, so conductivity gives us an approximation of hardness.





Plants234 said:


> An example was from one of linked posts above, "adding a neutral salt (like KCl) definitely works to stabilise the reading on a pH meter" ... how?


The neutral salt (salt of a strong base and a strong acid) just raises the <"ionic strength of the solution">, but it doesn't change the pH. The K+ and Cl- ions cancel one another out. The pH meter is a modified conductivity meter and it is just that the meter reaches equilibrium much more quickly in a higher ionic strength solutions. 





Plants234 said:


> can someone enlighten me as to whether or not things (biological or molecular - denitrification excluded) form acidic compounds in our aquariums rendering the necessity of drop checkers to verify CO2 levels


Yes there can be other acids ("H+ ion donors") present, when you are adding fertilisers some of the salts will be acidic, some will be neutral and some alkaline.  If you take <"potassium phosphate"> as your fertiliser if you use KH2PO4 it is an acid and if you use K2HPO4  it is a base.

Using a drop checker means that you are only measuring CO2. 

cheers Darrel


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## JoshP12 (13 Dec 2019)

dw1305 said:


> The main point would be that scientific advances in the last fifteen years have identified a huge range of nitrifying organism, many of which belong to the Archaea, and these don't have the same requirement for high alkalinity and high ammonia loadings. We now know that _Nitrobacter winogradskyi,_ <"the bacteria that we thought was responsible for the oxidation of ammonia">, doesn't actually occur in aquarium filters at all.



Interesting!!!!! Does the nitro-spira denitrification still produce 2H+ through the process?


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## jaypeecee (13 Dec 2019)

Plants234 said:


> @jaypeecee...you mention "this, in conjunction with a KH of 3.8, equates to 45 ppm of CO2. None of my fish were harmed in any way whatsoever"...this leads me to believe that you have a higher concentration of O2 to be able to pump the CO2 and be "ok"



Hi @Plants234 

I'm not sure what you mean by "you have a higher concentration of O2". Higher than what? It's late in the day but please explain - otherwise, I am unable to answer your question.

JPC


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## JoshP12 (14 Dec 2019)

Hi @jaypeecee, 

I ended up finding the post by Tom Barr after digging through the posts everyone shared with me (I can't remember how I got there): 
*"Dutch something or the other" 120 Gal (https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/dutch-something-or-the-other-120-gal.17797/page-27)\\
*
Anyways, about the fifth post down here: https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/dutch-something-or-the-other-120-gal.17797/page-26#post-299199 he talks about O2 levels and how he can load up more CO2 because of them. He continues and says, "
I keep double trunk elephant nose, they are hyper CO2 sensitive. So they are fine, same with my 180, it's sitting about 65-70ppm CO2.
Realize I have good flow and wet/dry filters and higher O2 than anyone with a canister filter"

He also says, 
"Realize that CO2 goes in, but it also goes out(degassing), if the degassing is stable, and the addition is stable, then you can add a fair amount, and then you also have a lot of O2, that makes it easier on the livestock."

In my little 10 gallon, when I pushed my CO2 past the 30 ppm (albeit perhaps the jump was too quick as I may try again a week or so from now) I saw the fish begin to gasp and accumulate at the bottom of the aquarium this makes sense seeing as how the top of my aquarium was covered in the mini CO2 bubbles. When I dialed it back, fish were (and are currently) healthily breathing (I am probably only in the mid 20's ppm for CO2). 

I have no experience with anything bigger than a 10 gal, so I do not know how oxygen levels vary as tank size changes (but I think we can say that tanks built long with high flow will have higher oxygen levels like shallow fast flowing streams). 

All that to say, that's why I mentioned that maybe you have a higher O2 concentration in your tank because then the fish will still be able to respire without the higher concentration of CO2 messing up the function (if anyone has a link for how fish respiration works specifically with diffusion of oxygen over the cell membrane, I would greatly appreciate a reputable read).  

Cheers,
Josh 










*
*


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## dw1305 (14 Dec 2019)

Hi all,





Plants234 said:


> Does the nitrospira denitrification still produce 2H+ through the process?


I think that nitrification must produce some protons, whatever the pathway is, because you've gone from NH4+ to NO3-.

This is from Chain _et al._ (2003) <"Complete Genome Sequence of the Ammonia-Oxidizing Bacterium and Obligate Chemolithoautotroph _Nitrosomonas europaea_"> 





> _Nitrosomonas europaea_ is a bacterium that can derive all its energy and reductant for growth from the oxidation of ammonia to nitrite. The cell's demand for carbon has to be met almost entirely by the fixation of carbon dioxide.............Ammonia-oxidizing bacteria such as _Nitrosomonas_ convert NH3 to NO2− by the successive action of ammonia monooxygenase (AMO) and hydroxylamine oxidoreductase (HAO): NH3 + O2 + 2H++ 2e− → NH2OH + H2O → NO2− + 5H+ + 4e−. Two of the four electrons return to the AMO reaction, and *two are either reductant for biosynthesis or pass to a terminal electron acceptor* (41, 83).





Plants234 said:


> All that to say, that's why I mentioned that maybe you have a higher O2 concentration in your tank because then the fish will still be able to respire without the higher concentration of CO2 messing up the function (if anyone has a link for how fish respiration works specifically with diffusion of oxygen over the cell membrane, I would greatly appreciate a reputable read).


You need a reference for the <"Root effect">, the relevant component of the <"Bohr-Root effect">.

You might be interested in this thread as well <"A question, dissolved oxygen and a pond"> 

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee (14 Dec 2019)

Hi @Plants234 

Many thanks for the feedback. I just want to focus on one statement made my Tom Barr and that is:

"Realize I have good flow and wet/dry filters and higher O2 than anyone with a canister filter"

I can't get my head around that. The dissolved oxygen in my tank hardly varies. It's typically 8 ppm. I didn't think it was physically possible to exceed 8.4 ppm dissolved oxygen at tropical aquarium temperatures and altitudes. And it's not that my test kit (JBL O2) only reads 8 ppm! I once measured around 2 - 3ppm in a live Daphnia or Moina culture that I was raising. Perhaps he's talking about atmospheric oxygen and that relates to dry filters but here I'm lost. What form does a dry filter take in the fishkeeping hobby? Or, more specifically, wet/dry filter. As Tom Barr's name is synonymous with planted tanks, these things obviously exist.

I will return to this - probably tomorrow.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (14 Dec 2019)

Hi @Plants234

I couldn't wait. I now know what Tom Barr is referring to. But I need to re-visit this tomorrow.

JPC


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## JoshP12 (15 Dec 2019)

Hi @jaypeecee,

A friend of mine is a reef nut and when I mentioned this to him he had a giggle. Supposedly wet/dry sumps are old school tech by the reef community and they became nitrate factories (which reef tanks despise), so they stopped using them and moved to refugiums  where they use a macro algae to outcompete algae in the display tank and to suck up excess nitrates and phosphates. 

I also want to note that Tom mentioned he seals the tower of the sump - I don’t know how tight this seal is, but it’s sealed to minimize co2 degassing. 

Here is what I thought might be the case: you pump your tank with co2 and then as the water passes through the trickle filter the oxygen that was consumed by whatever living thing is restored and some of that co2 is debased. Then that water comes back into the tank with a higher O2/Co2 ratio, rendering it safer for fish meanwhile pumping it with more co2 which will then repeat the process. 

I am not sure though. I would be interested to hear if anyone else is using sumps and notices if they can put much more co2 in or not. 

I am in the process of trying to up my co2 (looking for advice here too) because last time I did my fish gasped a bit ... my drop checker is not green when the lights come on; it turns green about 4-5 hours into the 7hour photoperiod. I started it 2 hours early today instead of 1 hour and it turned green earlier but not as early as I’d like. 

The reason I am “concerned” is because I’m developing a bit of green hair algae in my moss close to the light and I may have seen a hint of Staghorn. 

Do I just attempt to up it again or reduce the lights? 

Josh


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## dw1305 (15 Dec 2019)

Hi all, 





Plants234 said:


> Supposedly wet/dry sumps are old school tech by the reef community and they became nitrate factories (which reef tanks despise)


The "nitrate factory" bit is just because trickle filters are so effective at nitrification, this is because oxygen is the prime metric in biological filtration and these filters have huge gas exchange surfaces.





Plants234 said:


> so they stopped using them and moved to refugiums where they use a macro algae to outcompete algae in the display tank and to suck up excess nitrates and phosphates.


We've had this come up a <"few times on UKAPS">, I'm not a marine keeper, but if I was I would definitely go down the <"plants route">.

The other option I think that is still popular? Is the live rock/deep sand bed where anaerobic denitrification can occur. This may require the addition of a carbon source (the "vodka option").

cheers Darrel


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## Zeus. (15 Dec 2019)

jaypeecee said:


> one statement made my Tom Barr and that is:
> 
> "Realize I have good flow and wet/dry filters and higher O2 than anyone with a canister filter"
> 
> I can't get my head around that. The dissolved oxygen in my tank hardly varies.



as Darrels says



dw1305 said:


> these filters have huge gas exchange surfaces.



So where as canisters have a negative effect on the net [O2] wet dry filters will have a positive effect on the net [O2] and via verse on the net [CO2] for any given CO2 injection rate. I  would agree with T Barrs statement as it makes sense - dont know if he actually measured the [O2]
The trouble with measuring the [O2] is how accurate is the test kit!!!!! If are tanks have no flow and we really on diffusion alone we don't have to measure the [O2] or [CO2] or any [fert] the laws for physics and command sense tell us there isnt enough getting to the plants in a high tech tank. The same follows comparing wet and dry filters and canisters and the resulting [O2] at any given location. Testing the [O2] and if it confirms the increase then the test is good, if the test doesn't confirm an increase [O2] to support sound theory then I would question the test first esp when our 'peers' also support the theory


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## jaypeecee (15 Dec 2019)

Hi Guys,

OK, I'm awake now! I used to have a tank many years ago where the water ran across a channel at the top of the tank. In that channel was a rotating wheel. I suspect it was there to introduce atmospheric oxygen to assist with biological filtration. I'd forgotten about it. Regarding the absolute accuracy of any oxygen test kit, I'm not unduly concerned about that. What I think is more important are relative values. Is dissolved oxygen reducing or increasing and a test kit will indicate that, won't it? Indeed, that should apply to any test kit.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (15 Dec 2019)

Plants234 said:


> I am in the process of trying to up my co2 (looking for advice here too) because last time I did my fish gasped a bit ... my drop checker is not green when the lights come on; it turns green about 4-5 hours into the 7hour photoperiod. I started it 2 hours early today instead of 1 hour and it turned green earlier but not as early as I’d like.



Hi @Plants234 

I have a few questions/comments:

[1] What is the volume of your tank?

[2] What are you using to inject CO2 into the water?

[3] Do you have a lot of surface agitation of the tank water?

[4] What are you using to distribute the CO2 in the water?

[5] Does your tank lighting ramp up or is it OFF/ON?

[6] What is the position of the DC relative to the CO2 injector (assuming it's an in-tank injector/diffuser).

[7] Have you done a pH profile, i.e. measured the water pH at regular intervals throughout the day? I know you've had some problems with your pH meter but, as I suggested, you could resort to narrow-range pH test kits.

That'll do for the moment.

JPC


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## JoshP12 (15 Dec 2019)

Hi @jaypeecee, I will provide all the details!

[1] What is the volume of your tank?
10 gallon aquarium

[2] What are you using to inject CO2 into the water?
Co2 regulator connected to a ceramic diffuser (in the tank)

[3] Do you have a lot of surface agitation of the tank water?
Hang on back filters and water is usually topped up so it’s pushing the water around instead of a large break.


[4] What are you using to distribute the CO2 in the water?
The diffuser is set up directly under the HOB filter. The bubbles swoop underneath the log I have and towards the front of the aquarium, then get caught in the current and either move up to the surface or distribute to the back. Not much gets to the left of my aquarium because of all of my hardscape (unless it swoops behind the log which some does); however, I have still seen some pearling on the anubias and java fern on that side. That side also has emergent growth (several pothos plants hanging over and an unknown trimming from my work that seems to be growing ... haha).

[5] Does your tank lighting ramp up or is it OFF/ON?
Photoperiod starts at 2:30 WITH a 15 minute ramp up; so, the full lighting power starts officially at 2:45. It begins the Ramp down at 9:30 and is off at 9:45.


[6] What is the position of the DC relative to the CO2 injector (assuming it's an in-tank injector/diffuser).
The DC is positioned at the back of the aquarium near the rotala rotundifolia --> I placed it here because the bubbles would need to circulate to make it there (for 1) and because I know that the concentration may vary on the left and I was less concerned with that side (*would it really vary that much in a 10G?). *

[7] Have you done a pH profile, i.e. measured the water pH at regular intervals throughout the day? I know you've had some problems with your pH meter but, as I suggested, you could resort to narrow-range pH test kits.

Yes I have and more so before I got the drop checker.
I watched the pH change as CO2 was injected and it went from 7.8 to the 6.6/6.7 mark that I wanted - and stayed there.

Here has been my co2 journey:
1) Blew the right gauge on regulator by accident. BPS was reducing throughout the day so I slowly upped working pressure until it stabilized. Got it.

2) Through this process cross-referenced KH and PH in aquarium (I always kept some almond leaf, peat, and crushed coral in the back).

3) My KH kept bottoming out regardless of my efforts to increase it -- realized my little bag of goodies was eating my buffer -- removed it.

4) Buffered my WC water up to the right KH ~4 ~~~~ I chose this so that my low pH was around 6.6 (good enough for my tetras, gobys, and because I wanted to keep some amano shrimp too).
4.1) Still reading about how pH changes with gases affect osmotic pressure etc BUT a lower concentration of H+ should affect something, even if its bacteria -- still reading (especially a lot of the links that @dw1305 has shared regarding the chemistry).

5) While doing all of this, we had a baby!! (woot woot!), and I got the TDS meter (the birth of this post) ... it was reading 1800 ms ... needless to say that was because I didn't make water changes or do anything for a while due to lack of sleep ... LOL

6) Upped CO2, then fish were gasping slightly (note my other post in this thread).

7) Reduced CO2 to a much nicer level, everyone happy.

8) Before I realized how bad that TDS was, I added 6 amano's and killed them because I forgot how to acclimate fish ...

9) Ok, stabilized the KH to 4 and decided my GH should be around 7/8 (no idea why ... then the perfect water post came up) ... decided to go with EI Ca recommendations. GH = 60 ppm, KH = 4dKH ~ 70 ppm --> 600 ms TDS ... that's the water.

10) Tank water is around the same with about 800 ms TDS now (over the next bit, it will go to 600ms about as low as I can get it).

11) Acclimated my amano's and neons yesterday with success (I could have waited another few weeks before I added these livestock but I went for it)!
Livestock: 11 neons, 2 rainbow goby and some shrimp. They all have territory and my parameters are very stable, even with me playing mad scientist --> everything is healthy and changes in predictable patterns.

12) Among all of these changes I noticed the green hair algae form in the java mass (it could be plants acclimating to CO2, it could be detritus build up from poor maintenance that triggered the population, it could be fluctuating CO2 levels. Now I have to eradicate the population.)
12.1) yesterday/day before is when I noticed a baby staghorn and then another one forming.


*My intuition says the tank needs time to stabilize now with all of the new additions and with the consistent CO2 level (and that would be fine if I didn't notice the algae progressing) and with the appropriate water change and appropriate maintenance (I did a much needed clean of the filters yesterday too). With the addition of the new fish, upping CO2 may not be the best choice, but reducing the light seems like a solid idea, but I definitely seek advice.*

If anyone sees any mistakes that I made in my process, please advise so I don't make them again!

Regards,
Josh


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## jaypeecee (15 Dec 2019)

Hi @Plants234 

Thanks for your detailed reply.

Somewhere in your post, I thought I saw mention of your bubble rate through the bubble counter but, try as I might, I've re-read your post several times but couldn't find what I was looking for. I am interested only because it gives an _idea_ of how well your water is retaining the injected CO2. With the HOB filter, there is probably a lot of surface agitation. This is good in some respects as it oxygenates the water but also drives off CO2. As with lots of things, it's a balancing act.

JPC


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## JoshP12 (15 Dec 2019)

Zeus. said:


> as Darrels says
> 
> I  would agree with T Barrs statement as it makes sense - dont know if he actually measured the [O2]



In that same thread that I read, he mentioned he has an O2 detector hooked up (I imagine it like a ph probe of some kind - that's just me speculating). 

Josh


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## JoshP12 (15 Dec 2019)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Plants234
> 
> Somewhere in your post, I thought I saw mention of your bubble rate through the bubble counter but, try as I might, I've re-read your post several times but couldn't find what I was looking for. I am interested only because it gives an _idea_ of how well your water is retaining the injected CO2. With the HOB filter, there is probably a lot of surface agitation. This is good in some respects as it oxygenates the water but also drives off CO2. As with lots of things, it's a balancing act.
> 
> JPC



My BPS is about 5 bubbles for every 2.8 seconds --> I hesitate to say 2bps because it's not quite there (all done through my inaccurate timing skills ).


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## Zeus. (15 Dec 2019)

Plants234 said:


> In that same thread that I read, he mentioned he has an O2 detector hooked up (I imagine it like a ph probe of some kind - that's just me speculating).



Just remembered when T Barrs had his open day vid there was a mention of an O2 detector - I think (haven't checked )


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## JoshP12 (15 Dec 2019)

@Zeus. Thanks for the video! He shows there using the wet-dry filter too and says they are way better than his old canisters; it makes me reconsider looking for a canister for my little and only 10 gallon (if I go any bigger, I will definitely run a sump of some kind) ... stay with the HOB's (or use a HOB with the wheel).

Aside: My CO2 turns on in 30 mins or so; should I status quo, up the bps slightly, or reduce the light for this iteration (I am leaning on light reduction). Then in a few weeks, I may ramp it all up.


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## jaypeecee (15 Dec 2019)

Plants234 said:


> My BPS is about 5 bubbles for every 2.8 seconds --> I hesitate to say 2bps because it's not quite there (all done through my inaccurate timing skills ).



Hi @Plants234 

That's just over 100 bubbles per minute (bpm). Obviously, the throughput of CO2 also depends on the bubble diameter but I suspect that most bubble counters use similar internal diameter pipe of around 4mm. If that's the case, then 100bpm is a lot of CO2 for a 10 gallon tank. I run my setup at a fraction of that figure and my tank is 125 litres. You must have a large CO2 cylinder. FYI, mine is 1.5kg. I suspect that your HOB filter is driving off a lot of CO2.

JPC


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## JoshP12 (15 Dec 2019)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Plants234
> 
> That's just over 100 bubbles per minute (bpm). Obviously, the throughput of CO2 also depends on the bubble diameter but I suspect that most bubble counters use similar internal diameter pipe of around 4mm. If that's the case, then 100bpm is a lot of CO2 for a 10 gallon tank. I run my setup at a fraction of that figure and my tank is 125 litres. You must have a large CO2 cylinder. FYI, mine is 1.5kg. I suspect that your HOB filter is driving off a lot of CO2.
> 
> JPC



I could reduce the flow rate on the HOB (both of them) and see if that changes anything?


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## JoshP12 (15 Dec 2019)

I stumbled upon this a thread by @Zeus. where he says, 

CO2 off two hours before lights off is the general rules most folks use as the plants have had their fill and in the last two hours the pH will remain pretty stable. Having the [CO2] at optimal levels when the lights come on is most important to help prevent algae issues, best if you can have lower light intensity for the first 30mins as the plants get ready to photosynthesis at there full rate. 

I also upped the needle valve very slightly and did not like the results -- I reset it back to original; I will set the CO2 to come on 3 hours before instead of 2 hours and see if I can it green before. If not, then I will continue ... I have this weird feeling that I will need a 5 hour prior --- any thoughts?


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## Zeus. (15 Dec 2019)

Plants234 said:


> CO2 off two hours before lights off is the general rules most folks use as the plants have had their fill and in the last two hours the pH will remain pretty stable. Having the [CO2] at optimal levels when the lights come on is most important to help prevent algae issues, best if you can have lower light intensity for the first 30mins as the plants get ready to photosynthesis at there full rate.



 Well thats a quote of @ceg4048 that I quoted myself - I just recite it in his not being active ATM



Plants234 said:


> I also upped the needle valve very slightly and did not like the results



What was the results higher [CO2] ? In pic below top left hand corner check the DC colour taken today I have had it going nearly clear in the passed. It may take a little time for the inmates to adjust to the higher [CO2] but at yellow green I have no issues, when I use to have it nearly clear some fish use to passout when I fed them in the excitement of the feeding frenzy but they soon recovered so to combat the fish passing out I use to feed them about 30-40 mins after CO2 off

My BPS


Have you seen D Wongs Vid 


The 2hr Aquarist by D Wong is well worth a read IMO


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## JoshP12 (16 Dec 2019)

@Zeus.

I attached a photo of mine just now: 5 hours into the cycle (greenest it has been).

I will find a way to upload a video of the set up as it might help - to see the flow of the bubbles etc.

I will check out those videos!!

Thanks!

I suppose I am a bit nervous to gas them; but I do not want this staghorn or hair algae to get out of control - I'll attach a pic of the staghorn (very small but developing).


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## JoshP12 (16 Dec 2019)

@Zeus.,

Those Dennis Wong videos are fantastic - thanks.

In response, to his advice (and actually several others that I have watched), I will be reducing my lighting. 

Find the minimum lighting for optimal growth -- I like that advice.


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## Zeus. (16 Dec 2019)

Re your pics




the DC colour is fine, but all those bubbles at the surface of the water make me think your flow/turnover may be inadequate


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## JoshP12 (17 Dec 2019)

Zeus. said:


> but all those bubbles at the surface of the water make me think your flow/turnover may be inadequate



Thanks @Zeus. I may fiddle with the location of my hob filter (but when I moved it, it bent my plants that were directly under it because of the flow ... maybe canister is the way to go (sumps not an option). I could then position the diffuser under the intake and get better dissolution —> I am realizing now that my left side hardscape is horrible for flow ... it is basically all rocks that I needed to add at the time to weigh down the driftwood.

I also notice the concentration on the surface varies as my tank evaporates ...

Josh


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