# Is it still cycled?



## jimi (3 Sep 2019)

Hi Guys.

I had an old Roma 125 which I inherited before I went out and got the 200 which I am keeping a journal on. I cycled the 125 completely and it was ready to go and all it had in it was Substrate. 

However, I went and picked up the 200, drained the 125, put the 200 in place and moved the substrate over (and the old bio media from the U4 but this had been turned off a week or so) and then filled it up.

So, I have been running for a couple of weeks, put in a bit o fish food and I'm not getting any ammonia at all to start off the cycle. So i tested for Nitrite and that's at 0 also. 

I am just wondering if there was enough nice bacteria in the JBL Manado substrate to keep the cycle going? What do you think?

Cheers
Jimi


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## Edvet (3 Sep 2019)

Is it planted?


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## jimi (3 Sep 2019)

Its got hairgrass and some moss but other than that no.


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## Edvet (3 Sep 2019)

If there is a decent amount of well growing plants it should be "cycled" in a few weeks.Just build up livestock slowly combined with waterchanges.


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## dw1305 (3 Sep 2019)

Hi all, 





Edvet said:


> Is it planted?





jimi said:


> *Plants:*
> Eleocharis Acicularis x 2 pots
> Moss (cannot remember the name of x 1 pot - 3 pots for £12 offer at P@H.


That is really the main question, and if the plants are just the ones from <"10 years later..">? The the answer is probably "no". 





jimi said:


> I'm not getting any ammonia at all to start off the cycle. So i tested for Nitrite and that's at 0 also.


It could be because all the fixed nitrogen (nitrogen that isn't N2 gas) has ended up as nitrate (NO3-), but I think this may be more to do with the test kits. 

Have a look at the links in <"Cycling won't start advice....."> and <"#Attempt1">. 

Personally I don't actually like the concept of a tank being "cycled" or "non-cycled". It suggests that there is a switch where the tank goes from one state to the other, but that just isn't true. 

It makes much more sense to think of cycling as a "shades of grey" world, where tanks with a large actively growing plant mass (ideally with floating or emergent plants) can deal with very large bio-loads. 

cheers Darrel


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## jimi (3 Sep 2019)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, That is really the main question, and if the plants are just the ones from <"10 years later..">? The the answer is probably "no". It could be because all the fixed nitrogen (nitrogen that isn't N2 gas) has ended up as nitrate (NO3-), but I think this may be more to do with the test kits.
> 
> Have a look at the links in <"Cycling won't start advice....."> and <"#Attempt1">.
> 
> ...




I tend to agree with the shades of grey as it can go up and down even after its cycled. So I guess its jut case of stock slow and do regular water changes. 

Never had this before now is all, it normally spikes within a few days every time I have cycled which led me to think there must be a decent amount of good bacteria carried over from the last tank in the substrate. 

So like Edvet I will just stock slow and see how it goes. 

Cheers guys 

Jimi


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## rebel (3 Sep 2019)

I agree with @dw1305 on this issue.

The correct question is ask is "Is my tank cycled (ready) for x number of fish". The answer is always shades of fish.


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## jimi (3 Sep 2019)

rebel said:


> I agree with @dw1305 on this issue.
> 
> The correct question is ask is "Is my tank cycled (ready) for x number of fish". The answer is always shades of fish.



So a fish-less cycle and getting all readings down to 0, has been rendered pointless?

Had to just add that this sounded a bit arsey but it wasn't meant to be lol


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## Edvet (3 Sep 2019)

In an unplanted tank the filter is much more important, that's where the notion of cycled came from. There  will always be a covering of bacteria in the filtermedia and tank after a few days, people used to think you needed to "train and raise" the correct bacteria in order to be able to be able to proces wasteproducts. Hence feeding them the "correct food, even ammonia" to increase the numbers.
Planted tanks have much more active bacteria on and around plants. Plants also can use nitrogen sources in a far wider scope ( ammonia, nitrite and nitrate) for growth.\
In both cases, planted and unplanted, there is still the need for waterchanges to remove toxins and unbreakable wasteproducts, though in low light, slow growing tanks this need is low.
Gradually increasing bioload (livestock) will allow bacteria population to adapt to the amount of waste they can 'eat', planted tanks will have a much larger capacity faster compared to barebottom hardscape only tanks, usually with large poop-producing fish ( cichlids for instance).


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## jimi (3 Sep 2019)

Ok thats great, thank you for the info


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## dw1305 (3 Sep 2019)

Hi all, 





jimi said:


> Never had this before now is all, it normally spikes within a few days every time I have cycled which led me to think there must be a decent amount of good bacteria carried over from the last tank in the substrate.


There definitely could be. 





jimi said:


> So a fish-less cycle and getting all readings down to 0, has been rendered pointless?


Yes and no, we all agree that for the aquarium to be safe for fish we need the ammonia to be removed as swiftly as possible, it is just that the majority of the "facts" we thought we knew  about cycling aren't actually correct. 

This wasn't because there was originally a deliberate attempt  to mislead people, or obscure the truth, it was just a "best guess" at the time based on the scientific method available.

Have a look at Dr Tim Hovanec's comments in <"Bacteria revealed">. This is linked into <"Bedside Aquarium">, where there is a more complete discussion of the present state of knowledge of the nitrogen cycle in aquariums and some <"scientific references">. 

There are also problems surrounding testing accurately and reliably for some compounds. Nitrite (NO2-) is relatively easy to test for by colorimetry, but both ammonia/ammonium (NH3/NH4+) and  nitrate (NO3-) testing <"have some issues">. 

cheers Darrel


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## jimi (3 Sep 2019)

Thanks Darrel


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## dw1305 (3 Sep 2019)

Hi all, 





jimi said:


> Had to just add that this sounded a bit arsey but it wasn't meant to be lol


No, you are good.

I've belonged to various cichlid keeping forums and on some of those this whole thread would have degenerated into <"a "flaming" war by now">.

I know "cycling" is a <"really divisive area">, but a lot of the information on the WWW is out-dated.

Have a look at <"Do I need to ...."> and <"Need some opinions...."> and <"Anoxic filter"> (where the following quote comes from). 





dw1305 said:


> This is a page from <"Dr Novak's blog">, I'm a great believer that _a picture tells a thousand stories, and _this is the picture:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


cheers Darrel


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## jimi (3 Sep 2019)

Thanks Darrel is it appreciated. I guess a lot has changed in 10 years!


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## dw1305 (3 Sep 2019)

Hi all, 





jimi said:


> I guess a lot has changed in 10 years!


It has,  it is really because people have started looking for ammonia oxidising genes using DNA libraries and they've found that they largely come from the <"Archaea (AOA)"> .

cheers Darrel


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## dw1305 (4 Sep 2019)

Hi all,
Probably of limited interest to most but another "_microbial assemblage in aquarium filters_" paper has come my way. The paper is Sauder, L. _et al_. (2018) "“Candidatus Nitrosotenuis aquarius,” an Ammonia-Oxidizing Archaeon from a Freshwater Aquarium Biofilter" _Appl. Environ. Microbiol._*84*:e01430-18. (https://aem.asm.org/content/84/19/e01430-18). 





> *Conclusions*.
> We report the cultivation and complete genome sequence of “Ca. Nitrosotenuis aquarius,” a mesophilic, autotrophic, ammonia-oxidizing archaeon that originates from a freshwater aquarium bioﬁlter and belongs to the “Ca. Nitrosotenuis” lineage of the Thaumarchaeota. “Ca. Nitrosotenuis aquarius” cells grow up to 3 µm, which is the longest cell length reported for AOA representatives. Cells are consistently slender (0.4 µm), maintaining a high surface area-to-volume ratio, which is characteristic of oligotrophic cells. “Ca. Nitrosotenuis aquarius” possesses several genes for protein glycosylation, which could modify ﬂagella or S-layer proteins, and may promote enhanced surface adhesion. Incubations of biomass from the freshwater aquarium bioﬁlter where “Ca. Nitrosotenuis aquarius” originates demonstrate that AOA contribute to ammonia-oxidizing activity and support the previously reported numerical dominance of AOA in freshwater aquarium bioﬁlters (1, 2). *This work suggests that, contrary to common belief in the aquarium industry, AOB are likely not primarily responsible for ammonia oxidation in aquarium bioﬁlters. Laboratory cultures of AOA originating from freshwater aquaria, such as “Ca. Nitrosotenuis aquarius” cultures, are useful for future investigations of the ecology and physiology of freshwater AOA, with potential commercial applications in aquarium and aquaculture operations.*


cheers Darrel


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## rebel (6 Sep 2019)

jimi said:


> So a fish-less cycle and getting all readings down to 0, has been rendered pointless?


Negative. At the end of the fish-less cycle, the correct question is ask is how many fish can I add? IE Is my tank cycled for x number of fish?

It is not enough to ask "is my tank cycled?" or "is it still cycled".  Because then you must answer well how many fish can I add....


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## dw1305 (6 Sep 2019)

Hi all, 





rebel said:


> At the end of the fish-less cycle, the correct question is ask is how many fish can I add? IE Is my tank cycled for x number of fish?
> 
> It is not enough to ask "is my tank cycled?" or "is it still cycled". Because then you must answer well how many fish can I add....


We just need to persuade the non-planted fish keepers that this is true, but it is an <"uphill struggle">.

For whatever reason I've had a renewed stream of "cycling hate mail" (not on this forum) recently. It had died down (possibly because less people are reading forums?) but something has stirred it up again recently. 

cheers Darrel


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