# planning a riparium for discus



## Zante (31 Mar 2018)

The idea is to have the back of the aquarium with a lush emersed vegetation. I will also install a trellis for creepers to climb up.

Since it's going to be an amazon themed tank, I'd like to stick to plants that can be found in the amazon.
My research so far has coughed up:
Philodendrons
Monstera deliciosa (but having second thoughts about this seeing how big it grows)
Peace lilies
Dieffenbachia
Peperomia
Anthurium
Sygonium

Also to the trellis I want to tie some of those "mossy sticks" that are used for creepers, and have orchids, ferns and bromeliads growing on them.

The width of the tank should be around 2m.

The plants (apart from the epiphytes of course) will be housed in small plastic baskets that are approximately 10x10cm, 8cm deep, filled with clay pellets.

Wanted to know if you have some suggestions of other plants to consider, criticism of the project, or something I'm doing wrong (or will do wrong since it's a project so far) or could do differently.


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## BubblingUnder (31 Mar 2018)

Have a look at this _'Aquarium/Paludarium with fish and reptiles'_ for a bit of inspiration


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## zozo (31 Mar 2018)

Adiantum raddianum originates from SA-Brasil.. But can be found all over the world, even in the wild in Europe in well frost protected spots.
In the garden centres you might find raddianum cultivars such as Fragrans or Fritz Lutz, oftenly not even labled as such and offered as a mix, because it's a popular house fern in many cases the lable just says fern mix.

chamaedorea elegans also is SA origine Palm sp. that does goed in such conditions more common up north as far as Mexico.

For a extensive database on terrestrial plant options look Here unfortunately this site doesn't have a desent search filter for origine, but it does lable the origine in the plant description. There are lots of lesser common plants originating from SA.

Even some Echinodorus could serve you well, a very common and hardy one and can grow rather large there for often recomended for open top tanks is the E. Cordifolius. Originates from the almost entire American continent from brasil to Canada. This plant could be planted in the tanks substrate and grow out the top. I've seen discus tanks with a bunch this plant growing out up from the substrate. There might be more Echinodurus able to do this, search the above linked data base from Flowgrow for echinodorus and see the world map at the left. If it grows large enough and all the way up to North America you are ok regarding climate requirments.


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## mort (31 Mar 2018)

Cool project. I have a few peacelillies, a monstera and anthurium in my tank and the first thing I spotted was the basket size you were thinking of. This would be fine if you wanted to keep them smaller or constantly trim them but the peacelillies can get several feet high and the root mass for mine (simply dumped into the water with no basket or substrate) is much larger and the plants are still growing up and out. I only started my monstera a couple of months ago from a tiny cutting and it's already grown several roots that are well over a foot long under the water. They do vine so as long as the bottom has access to the water you will be fine but I'm not sure a large plant would like to be that restricted.


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## Zante (31 Mar 2018)

zozo said:


> Adiantum raddianum originates from SA-Brasil.. But can be found all over the world, even in the wild in Europe in well frost protected spots.
> In the garden centres you might find raddianum cultivars such as Fragrans or Fritz Lutz, oftenly not even labled as such and offered as a mix, because it's a popular house fern in many cases the lable just says fern mix.
> 
> chamaedorea elegans also is SA origine Palm sp. that does goed in such conditions more common up north as far as Mexico.
> ...



Thank you, I will look them up.

As for the Echinodorus, I was considering them. I had already decided to have two in the tank substrate, as the only submerged plants, but was also thinking of the possibility of having one of the larger ones that'd grow out of the water. I'm a bit undecided because I'm a bit concerned about it hiding the plants behind it.



mort said:


> Cool project. I have a few peacelillies, a monstera and anthurium in my tank and the first thing I spotted was the basket size you were thinking of. This would be fine if you wanted to keep them smaller or constantly trim them but the peacelillies can get several feet high and the root mass for mine (simply dumped into the water with no basket or substrate) is much larger and the plants are still growing up and out. I only started my monstera a couple of months ago from a tiny cutting and it's already grown several roots that are well over a foot long under the water. They do vine so as long as the bottom has access to the water you will be fine but I'm not sure a large plant would like to be that restricted.



The baskets are designed so that the roots can grow out of them and into the water, but yes, I do see your point, and it is something that was on my mind, that is why I specified it. I can get bigger ones if necessary, I just would like to use them as basic support, nit as substrate as such. Let's say more of a way to clip the plants to the tank edge, and then the trellis behind the tank can support them, but I've never done something like this, so I'm willing to listen to advice.


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## sciencefiction (31 Mar 2018)

Zante said:


> The baskets are designed so that the roots can grow out of them and into the water, but yes, I do see your point,



It is not just the roots you need to consider. It is the base of the plants as well. See my peace lily below. Excuse the calcium deposits 






And to use the moment to show off my flowers


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## Zante (31 Mar 2018)

What's the diameter of that pot? Just to get a feel of the size.


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## sciencefiction (31 Mar 2018)

Give me 2 mins, I'll measure


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## sciencefiction (31 Mar 2018)

Zante said:


> What's the diameter of that pot? Just to get a feel of the size.



17cm


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## Zante (31 Mar 2018)

Thanks


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## sciencefiction (31 Mar 2018)

Zante said:


> filled with clay pellets.



I just wanted to mention, in case you haven't used clay pebbles before, you need to pre-soak them first or they'll float out of the baskets. It may take up 2-3 weeks for them to fully soak in order to stay put....


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## Zante (31 Mar 2018)

sciencefiction said:


> I just wanted to mention, in case you haven't used clay pebbles before, you need to pre-soak them first or they'll float out of the baskets. It may take up 2-3 weeks for them to fully soak in order to stay put....



I have four peace lilies (a small cultivar) on my blue ram tank in clay pellets. Thanks for the heads up though.


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## Edvet (3 Apr 2018)

Just a few remarks. For discus you will try to get the tank to about 28 degrees celcius ( up to 30) so there will be evaporation, from a large tank it can be a lot. So think about that and ventilation of the room it's in.
There are fewer plants which like these temperatures submerged. Floaters will help with reducing some of the nitrates in a bare (non-planted) tank. I recommend Ceratopteris pteridoides. You can also have Hydrocotyle leucocephala both emersed and submerged. I have had it over a brace of my tank growing both out and in the tank.
You will need a hefty filtering system. I would recommend a sump and or trickle filter. Don't get too much surface flow, it will be hard on the floaters.
Depending on how biotope true you'll want to be: in their natural environment there are few to none green plants. Mostly dead wood and leaves.
( oh and one personal quirck: please don'tn do all kind of colored versions in one tank, at least make it one color, wildcolors preferably)


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## Zante (3 Apr 2018)

Edvet said:


> Just a few remarks. For discus you will try to get the tank to about 28 degrees celcius ( up to 30) so there will be evaporation, from a large tank it can be a lot. So think about that and ventilation of the room it's in.



I am looking at ways of having transparent lids on the tank, and still allow the emersed plants to grow out, exactly for this reason.
Since I'm having the tank made from acrylic it should be easier to get an unusual design made.

Even if I should decide to keep it open, though, I have a similarly sized reef that will be kept open in the next room, and an air con unit has been installed to keep both rooms under control.



Edvet said:


> There are fewer plants which like these temperatures submerged. Floaters will help with reducing some of the nitrates in a bare (non-planted) tank. I recommend Ceratopteris pteridoides. You can also have Hydrocotyle leucocephala both emersed and submerged. I have had it over a brace of my tank growing both out and in the tank.



Not planning on any floaters, and only a couple of amazon swords submerged. All other plants will be emersed.



Edvet said:


> You will need a hefty filtering system. I would recommend a sump and or trickle filter.



Yep, sump is already on the books. I will keep it underpopulated though, so it will need less filtration than you may think.
I'm planning to have 10 discus, a shoal of rummynoses, a herd of sterbai corys and five or six starlight plecos.
Possibly splashing tetras, but need to look them up properly



Edvet said:


> Don't get too much surface flow, it will be hard on the floaters.
> Depending on how biotope true you'll want to be: in their natural environment there are few to none green plants. Mostly dead wood and leaves.
> ( oh and one personal quirck: please don'tn do all kind of colored versions in one tank, at least make it one color, wildcolors preferably)



I want to go for a themed tank rather than a full-on biotope, but I want to also be close to what would be called a biotope, hence the two amazon swords in the water and nothing else.

As for the discus strains, I wholeheartedly agree, I like the look of a tank with a single strain much better than a rainbow tank.
While I was still living in london I had Leopard Snakeskins (and they even bred in the community tank!). For this new one I'm undecided: either LSS again, or Alenquer.


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## Smells Fishy (3 Apr 2018)

I hope you journal it on here because I've always wanted to own Discus.


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## Zante (3 Apr 2018)

Smells Fishy said:


> I hope you journal it on here because I've always wanted to own Discus.



The journal will probably be on youtube.


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## Smells Fishy (3 Apr 2018)

Zante said:


> The journal will probably be on youtube.



Cool what's your channel?


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## Zante (3 Apr 2018)

Don't worry, I'll advertise it once I get started.
There will be a reef before the discus tank, as I have the live rock from an older tank and need to set it up.
And before that I need new windows for the house. Last winter with single glazing and drafts wasn't fun, even in Italy


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## Edvet (4 Apr 2018)




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## Killamanjaro (4 Apr 2018)

Zante said:


> Don't worry, I'll advertise it once I get started.
> There will be a reef before the discus tank, as I have the live rock from an older tank and need to set it up.
> And before that I need new windows for the house. Last winter with single glazing and drafts wasn't fun, even in Italy



Good luck with it all, a reef and a discus tank is exactly what I've got planned.

I'm looking to do a 6x2x2 SPS dominant reef and a 6x2x2 planted red turq discus tank.

I look forward to seeing your Youtube videos.



Edvet said:


>




I love this guys videos, not sure if his tank is still up and running though. Its one of my favourite discus tanks I've seen, along with PlantedDiscusFishTank.


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## Nanglebadger (4 Apr 2018)

I've added this to my watch list, very interested to see how it goes for you. I have a blackwater discus tank with some floating plants that I would love to develop further with some emergent planting so will follow this for tips and pointers!

Phil.


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## Zante (4 Apr 2018)

Nanglebadger said:


> I've added this to my watch list, very interested to see how it goes for you. I have a blackwater discus tank with some floating plants that I would love to develop further with some emergent planting so will follow this for tips and pointers!
> 
> Phil.



Emergent or emersed?


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## Nanglebadger (5 Apr 2018)

Sorry, typo from reading the thread, I intended to write "emersed". Clearly hadnt had enough coffee yesterday, well spotted!

Phil.


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## Tim Harrison (5 Apr 2018)

Edvet said:


>



Very nice tank, and no doubt it's healthy since the fish look very happy, but it looks to be overpopulated even though it's 600 gallons.


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## Zante (6 Apr 2018)

I have one question that has been haunting me for a while, while thinking of this project.
Might as well ask for some opinions here: Should I leave the roots of these emersed plants hanging in the water or hide them in a compartment?

Let me explain: I have been thinking of the possibility of having transparent lids on the tank, with a bar across the width of the tank at the back that'd hold up both the lids and the baskets of the emersed plants. That'd mean that the lids would not be full depth, and leave the tank uncovered where the emersed plants come out. (please ask for clarifications if this part isn't clear)

I have also considered the possibility of using a sheet of acrylic at full height instead of just a bar making a separate compartment for the plants. The water wald go in the tank at one end, flow through the tank, flow in this back compartment where the plants' roots would be and down in the sump on the same side of the return.

Leaving the roots visible in the tank means that microfauna can form in there and any fry (cory and ancistrus for example) can hide in the tangle and find food. It also means that larger fish could get trapped in the tangle. I lost a juvenile discus in a tangle of pothos roots.

On the other hand having the separate compartment would make a cleaner looking tank, which could enhance the impression of river bank should I add a 3D background. It would also mean that the water would be forced to flow through the plant roots rather than having the option of going around, and plants would get to pull more nutrients. On the negative side it would mean less volume for swimming, since about 10cm thickness would be taken by this compartment, and I'd lose the "fry rearing tangle" at the back.

Opinions?


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## sciencefiction (6 Apr 2018)

Zante said:


> Leaving the roots visible in the tank means that microfauna can form in there and any fry (cory and ancistrus for example) can hide in the tangle and find food.


 

The plants need to be rooted. Otherwise the top will grow twisted, just like if you let a stem plant float in the water


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## Zante (6 Apr 2018)

sciencefiction said:


> The plants need to be rooted. Otherwise the top will grow twisted, just like if you let a stem plant float in the water



If you read the original post you would know that the plants will be rooted in baskets full of clay pellets secured to the rear edge of the tank


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## sciencefiction (6 Apr 2018)

Oh. OK. I thought you said cory and pleco fry hiding in the roots....Not possible if the roots are potted. I did read your original post


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## zozo (6 Apr 2018)

Also depends a bit on which plant..  A <syngonium> doesn't need a pot.. I have it trailing over the tank with the roots in the water, attached a tube suction cup to the glass inside tha tank and stuck the stem in the ring.. It was a simple cutting and it has quite some roots hanging in the tank by now.  Depending on the height of the tank and the size of the plant, if it is relatively shallow and the roots reach the substrate it might pull itself down into the substrate.
<Anthurium> is also such a plant you might like it can develop an intuiging submersed rootsystem..

I never tried myself but for example a large piece lily <(Spathiphyllum)> could do in the substrate of a shallow tank and grow out the top.

Since you are about discus tank i guess this will be rather large and tall tank.. It could work with scaping it with elevations to create shallow areas closer the the surface for a plant like that..

<There are quite some possibilities>

Scavange <Pinterest> for inspirations.  Name it, people have tried it.. There are loads of possible bog plants in the house plant corner from the garden centre. But not displayed as such.

I'm not sure what plant this is.. But it seems he attached Java fern narrow to the rhizome of the big plants.. And it seems to rock the boat..


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## Zante (6 Apr 2018)

sciencefiction said:


> Oh. OK. I thought you said cory and pleco fry hiding in the roots....Not possible if the roots are potted. I did read your original post



The roots will grow out of the baskets and down through the water.
Remember we're talking about emersed plants, not submerged.


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## Zante (6 Apr 2018)

zozo said:


> Also depends a bit on which plant..  A <syngonium> doesn't need a pot.. I have it trailing over the tank with the roots in the water, attached a tube suction cup to the glass inside tha tank and stuck the stem in the ring.. It was a simple cutting and it has quite some roots hanging in the tank by now.  Depending on the height of the tank and the size of the plant, if it is relatively shallow and the roots reach the substrate it might pull itself down into the substrate.
> <Anthurium> is also such a plant you might like it can develop an intuiging submersed rootsystem..
> 
> I never tried myself but for example a large piece lily <(Spathiphyllum)> could do in the substrate of a shallow tank and grow out the top.
> ...



I have a couple of smaller baskets with small peace lilies in my ram tank.
When I get home I'll take a few pictures and post them.

As for the depth of the tank I'm planning 60cm, with enough sand on the bottom for the corys to play in and the two amazon swords to set root.


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## Zante (8 Apr 2018)

Here is a basic representation of what I was thinking.

Either this:


 

Basically a beam (with braces and supports of course, I haven't added them in here for simplicity) where the lids can rest and that would hold up the baskets for the plants. The water flow would be normal, from one end to the other of the tank and rhe roots would simply dangle in the water.

or


 

Same as the first one, but here it's not a beam, it's a wall. The water comes into the tank at the far end, flows through the display portion, then over the weir (where the dent in the wall is) through the plant roots that are hanging in the separate compartment and at the far end back in the sump.

What do you think?


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## BubblingUnder (8 Apr 2018)

Zante said:


> also means that larger fish could get trapped in the tangle. I lost a juvenile discus in a tangle of pothos roots



If you are planning high density plant roots I would separate it with the acrylic sheet. My Discus got stuck in plants I had on the side of the tank near the surface it managed to work itself deep into the roots chasing a piece of flake. Discus shape means it's can be hard for them to turn around within a weed bed once it's worked itself in. My Discus was fine & didn't panic but just waited for me to pick it out however I did thin out the roots. So be aware of the possibility and plan ahead.


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## Konsa (8 Apr 2018)

Hi
I will go for option two myself but will not just place a wall but make it like  a aqua nano sump felled with coarse sponge that will be able to clean easy compared to the clay agregate that will collect a lot of mulm over time.This way U will ensure water flows evenly trough it and as it will take path off less resistance if not devided .
Regards Konsa


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## dw1305 (8 Apr 2018)

Hi all, 





zozo said:


> I'm not sure what plant this is.


Nice. It is an Aroid, so it may be an_ Anthurium _or _Spathiphyllum_. _Spathiphyllum_ would be my guess.

cheers Darrel


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## sciencefiction (8 Apr 2018)

Zante said:


> The roots will grow out of the baskets and down through the water.
> Remember we're talking about emersed plants, not submerged.



They will grow out of the baskets if the base of the plant also grows too big for the baskets. As it multiplies sideways, the new plantlets will simply grow outside, using the main plant as stabilizer.  Until then all the roots will stay in the basket. In my old tank the pots I used were rather small and yes, all the plant base/roots outgrew the basket. The restriction does limit the size of the plant .It worked fine to an extent for the peace lilies*apart from my baskets falling in the water as the plant grew) but not for the palm which took off once I potted it in bigger quarters. The small basket also caused the anthurium lily to start creeping over the surface of the water instead of growing upward. It is no problem while the plant is small. But if you want them to mature and flower, the basket size will play a role in a year or two as the plant develops fully.



Konsa said:


> Hi
> I will go for option two myself but will not just place a wall but make it like a aqua nano sump felled with coarse sponge that will be able to clean easy compared to the clay agregate that will collect a lot of mulm over time.This way U will ensure water flows evenly trough it and as it will take path off less resistance if not devided .
> Regards Konsa



I think there is more chance of clogging if using sponges than using clay pebbles. When I do water changes and drop the level way below the basket level and then fill back up, the lot of the mulm flows out of the baskets. I am basically flushing them that way each week.  So I need to do a "surface siphon" when I fill the tank back up to over the surface of the baskets. It is slightly annoying but ensures no big scum collection in the planting baskets. It doesn't take long either if one is using a python for water changes.  So in general, no scam collection. The issue was totally different when I tried emersed plants in a trickle filter. It clogged the filter and it caused a mini leak out the back of the tank a couple of times. That's because the water level never went above the trickle filter and the only way I could flush it was to take it apart. Plants don't like that disturbance as one is basically pulling out all the nice root growth apart.


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## zozo (8 Apr 2018)

dw1305 said:


> It is an Aroid



Thanks Darrel, that was the word i was searching for.. In our language Aroid literlay translated this type of plant is called Arons Chalice..
But what threw me off is that (segmented) stem at the left base and the leafshape.. Thought it might be a young Dracaena (fragrans)..

Might be a combination of both..


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