# High tech tank with sump?



## Big AL (19 May 2017)

Hey I have heard that sumps gas off too much co2 to be useful in a high tech planted tank. Is this true? Is there anyone who uses a sump with their high tech setup? How about a fluidised chamber in the sump?
I was thinking of doing a k1 kaldness fluidised chamber for my 90cm tank, it would require two air pumps to move the media, with an Eshopps AEO11005 pf-800 overflow box  (approx 800gph flow rated) and a Rio plus 782gph pump. Any thoughts or suggestions?


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## foxfish (19 May 2017)

Yes lots of folk use sumps and inject Co2 and yes you might well use more C02.
You will loose gas down the overflow and from your proposed chamber, whether that matters depends on the cost of you gas & how readily available or convenient the refills are?


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## zozo (19 May 2017)

The whole co2 concept is a bit ?? Can't find the right word for.. Maybe it's more than a bit.. Anyway.

Everybody hangs on the 30ppm or 1 unit pH drop rule what so ever as if it is writen in stone. But 30ppm is about the maximum safe amount to put in and keep the fish as healthy and safe as possible. You can get little higher but it drasticaly lowers the error margin and you might come home one day seeing all fish dead. So as far is the 30ppm co2 is written in stone it is in respect to what lives in your tank besides plants.

But you should first find out, what plants would you like to grow. Than how much light do you need to have to grow this.

Do you want to grow a jungle of rather very difficult bog plants submersed, lush, dense and colorfull red with a tidy dense growing carpet lawn in front of it?
Than you need high light and maybe even a little bit more than 30ppm to pull it off realy nice. In such casses where maximum co2 is the most significant dependency to make it work. Than a sump could cause a bit of a problem gassing off pressious co2.

Do you want to grow relatively easy plants which also would grow in a non co2 tank.. Than you would need much less light and likely the plants will flourish and grow like mad with only 10 to 15ppm co2. In such casses pumping in 30ppm, will only make you trim bigger plants filling the green waste bin more often, maybe even more often than necessary and thus makes 30ppm actualy a complete waste of co2. 

So short answer, depending on your plant inventory and light intensity yes a sump could gass off to much co2
Or makes totaly no differnce and works like a charme since you're putting whay to much co2 in it anyway with the holy 30ppm.


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## DavidW (19 May 2017)

Hi. I've got a 350 litre tank with sump and CO2 injection. I've got a lid on my sump and my overflow is underwater to help with de-gassing. 

There's a vast choice of media you can use in a sump and depend on what you stock your tank with (fish) and how often you want to do watcher changes can effect whicg media would be best for you. I did have K1 in my original sump but have now switched to Seachem Matrix, Eheim substrat pro and Biohomme at the bottom of a bioball drip tower. I also have a denitrate and purigen reactors. This setup is way over the top just plants or community fish but I keep discus who tend to be quite messy and live low nitrate levels.

Since your interested in fluidised beds have you considered a reactor instead of a sump? I've seen a couple of setups with a fluidised chamber on the return of an external filter, and the movement was provided by the pump flow rather than air pumps. A setup like this would also limit any de-gassing. One thing to note about K1 it doesn't really tumble until it matured for a few weeks. So if you do use K1 and it doesn't move when you first set it up don't worry it's normal.

Thanks


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## Big AL (19 May 2017)

Hey, thanks for the replies! First of all the tank is in dry start and I still have lots of time to build a sump. I'm not new, been into aquascaping for a few years, and I'm pretty good at growing weeds lol. The k1 fluidised chamber was something I wanted to do to make maintinence easier on myself, while providing great filtration. I use ehiem substrat pro in my canisters, I love it. I wanted to do something different in this tank. I'm not sure exactly what a reactor does, but I would like to use a fluidised sand bed filter at some point, I hear they are difficult to get the flow right and will end up killing about 40% of your pump's flow
The tank is predominantly carpet plants, some HC Cuba and mostly eleocharis belum. I have an aquavas 90cm setup so lights can be pretty strong if I want but I'm not in the hobby to grow algae. I bought the setup with out a filter for a steal of a price, I'm just working out what kind of filtration I want to use. I'm a DIY guy, I've built at least 8 tanks in the last two years and stands to match them, so I'm not afraid to get my hands dirty, I just want to build something that will make cleaning the filter easier instead of lugging a heavy canister around. I am in the routine of doing weekly water changes so thats not a problem either, I know what goes into maintaining a high tech planted tank.


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## foxfish (19 May 2017)

The last few tanks I have run, I have used a sump that is only one inch below the main tank.
This is possible because my tank is against a false wall.
I use this format very successfully by keeping any associated equipment in the sump.
I use a smaller pump to recycle water from the sump into a small trickle tower & a bigger pump to feed the sump.
The C02 is injected into the return pump via an atomiser.


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## zozo (19 May 2017)

Big AL said:


> I hear they are difficult to get the flow right and will end up killing about 40% of your pump's flow



If you are using a sump and are a DIY guy a sand bed filter cant be any simpler to build.
See this 


Put this in it's own sump compartiment with its own pump and you can't go wrong and can never restrict the flow in the tank.

But mind, all tho it is fun to build and see function, for planted tanks this actualy is a bit over the top.. I ran a fluidized sand filter for about a year on a planted hightech tank.. I do not use it any longer, never realy noticed a difference with or without it..

It aint realy a usefull addition, your substrate will actualy do all you need regarding nitrification. Also ran this same filter next to the trickle sump from the low tech, same story.. What the substrate does is suficient.. So sasa, can it or should it be better than sufficient without overcomplicating it?   Btw with this in line build which was rather small it indeed restricts flow, not from the sands weight but the height i could push.. It pushed about 300l/h without a problem, at more it spilled sand from the outlet.  So had to make a higher/bigger one for more than 300l/h push or maybe use heavier sand. That's a trail and error and to difficult to calculate up front.


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## Henry (19 May 2017)

Didn't Tom Barr do some aquascapes running a sump?


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## DavidW (21 May 2017)

Big AL said:


> I'm not sure exactly what a reactor does


 Here's one in action 


In this setup it's part of a sump but you can hook it up inline with an external filter.


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## Mannic05 (21 May 2017)

> Didn't Tom Barr do some aquascapes running a sump?



Yes there is some footage on YouTube where you see his wet dry sump, and if I'm right he is using Serge reactors for co2 enrichment his water.


Verstuurd vanaf mijn Moto G (4) met Tapatalk


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## Mannic05 (21 May 2017)

In this video you see his sump. 

Verstuurd vanaf mijn Moto G (4) met Tapatalk


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## Big AL (22 May 2017)

Thanks for all the feedback! I really appreciate it! I like that media reactor a lot, what brand is it? And has it been modified to accommodate k1?


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## DavidW (23 May 2017)

Big AL said:


> I like that media reactor a lot, what brand is it? And has it been modified to accommodate k1


Hi, you can make a reactor out of a water filter housing, kits are available on ebay - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Basic-K1-...827045?hash=item4b14ff5d25:g:kiMAAOSwNRdX4xae
Atomic make some nice reactors too - http://www.atomic-reactor.co.uk/product/atomic-pellet-reactor-100/ I'd fir a tap to the inlet of this one so you can control the flow.
Thanks


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## zozo (24 May 2017)

This is already Jason's second planted high tech scape with a sump. 
https://glassboxgardeners.com/threads/jasons-scape-father-nature.557/


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## foxfish (24 May 2017)

Here is one of mine running an overflow and sump with one of my C02 reactors .....


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## Daveslaney (24 May 2017)

A all pond solutions filter booster ran after your canister filter half filled with K1 would make a good fluid bed filter.
Just fill the canister with filter floss for mecanical, then the fluidised K1 for bio.


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## Big AL (25 May 2017)

My canister is about 520gph (2000lph), I don't think k1 will fluidise correctly. Plus it may make a lot of noise and possibly get stuck in the impeller.


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## zozo (25 May 2017)

Don't believe a fluidized filter is the problem to all solutions when it comes to filtering.. It is indeed the most sufficient way with biological filtering.. But the whole concept is more developed for installations where this biological filtering doesn't occur naturaly and need to be forced. E.g. large plantless highly stocked Koi ponts, highly stocked barebottom or plantless large tanks.

But if you have sufficient amount of planted substrate in your tank, than this substrate will contain a motherload of nitrifying bacterias and plants taking up a huge part of this job. This combined with a well aerated trickle sump will be about the best filter installation you can make. Adding a fluidized bed section to a setup like this is a bit overrated and actualy an unnecessary input of energy which in bottom line is more a waste than a help.

Even better make it a lit planted trickle filter  It wont take op much space there are small plant species enough growing like mad emersed above the trickle part. Consuming a big part of the nitrate made in there.




And indeed a fluidized bed filter with K1 will make noise.. I gave it a try and if you run it with an air stone, you'le also hear the bubbles and the airpump run. Also tried a fluidized sand bed filter and this one is quiet.. But it is the same story if the process you're aiming for already is suficiiently completed before it hits the fluidized part it's nothing more than a waste of energy..  It can't be made better than sufficient.. I tossed them both, the K1 and also the fluidized sand bed. Why, it wasn't a usefull addition for what im running..

And this is what you should think over first.. What does it? And what does it need to do it.. And do you realy need it for what you are planning to run..

Bacteria are living entities as well, they need something to live off. So the ammount of bacteria multiplying will be dependence in correlation of the amount of food provided.

You are talking High tech tank, so this inevitably stands for highly planted tank consuming loads of nutrients. Than your sump will be provided with much less nitrite and ammonia than it would be with a low tech non planted tank filled with sand only and a large school of chiclids. You realy do not need a race car of a sump filter for a sufficiently planted tank, you probably can't fuel it anyway.


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## Big AL (25 May 2017)

Is it overkill in a high tech setup? Yeah probably, but it doesnt have to be a large k1 chamber. What drew me into the k1 fluidised sump is the self cleaning. I hate having to lug a large canister filter to my bathroom and making a huge mess with it while trying to keep the bacteria alive in a bucket full of tank water. I bought a python to make water changes much easier for me, and so I do it more often. I would like a filter that is also easy to take care of, so that I can do it more often.
I have an air pump that is almost silent (the bubbles make more noise than the pump), and the sump would be housed inside of the closed cabinet to reduce noise as well. I know nothing about overflow boxes but I did come across one that I like called a zetlife pokpo.
The wasting of energy part is kind of mute to me, because a 520gph filter will probably run the same cost as an air pump and water pump together.
Edit: I'm not trying to argue or discredit your statements, it just comes down to this: I already have a canister filter for the tank, it's not new, I've used it previously, so I can go with something inexpensive  (DIY sump) or use what I already have. I don't personally care for canisters since there's a lot that can go wrong really quickly with them, and maintenance is a pain. If I decide to build something, I want it to be as easy on maintenance as possible while still doing a good job. I did research, and although I think overflow boxes are ugly and will take away from the aesthetic of the scape, I can live with that if there are trade offs (easy to take care of). Anyway that's just my position, not trying to discount what you've said (all great points). 
Thanks!


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## foxfish (25 May 2017)

I wonder how effective a fluidised bed filter would be, working as a C02 reactor?


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## zozo (25 May 2017)

I'm not trying to talk you out of it..  If you feel like and you mind is set on, it is this you must have, you have to go for it and enjoy it.  It is a treat to build and a joy to see it function.. Next to the hearing part, that was a bugger in the living room. But that's me.. I just giving my experience and views on the topic title. But a sump doesn't mater how you build it, but if build correctly it only has pro's instead of cons..

Just saying from experience that a fluidized filter chamber in a sufficient planted setup has pro's nor cons.. You won't realy notice a difference when you are not using it and just go for a simple trickle setup.. So the waste of energy is more in thinking, finding and making to whole construction work for something you actualy do not realy need and can be as sufficient with a much more simpler design. The airpump sure probably will be peanuts, but still it is energy.

When it comes to cleaning a sump, in my case i only clean the prefilter mats and the last polishing filter block now and then. The trickle media, doens't need to be cleaned (for years to come). So i guess even if you use only K1 as biomedia you still have a prefilter mat and probably a last stage polishing filter mat which needs regular cleaning once a month or so.

Anyway, lot of people say, fluidized bed filters can be nitrogene bombs.. But in a sufficiently planted setup this very unlikely if the tank is mederatly stocked.
The media aint just feuled enough to produce it.. 

Anyway, succes.. I love to see what you come up with..


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## Big AL (25 May 2017)

Really? I thought you had to clean sump bio media as often as a canister's bio mefia.


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## foxfish (25 May 2017)

I do occasionally rinse my trickle tower bio balls, I pour them into a big bucket of tank water during a water change & stir  them around a bit, but only once every year or so. 
As far as I know, trickle filters are still the most efficient  form of biological filtration - fish tank or sewage farm!
I did read about an pressurised air, trickle tower, that is supposedly more efficient than a none pressurised.
They are run at around 2psi.


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## zozo (26 May 2017)

That's also the thing with overflows and sumps..  A canister setup is more like a closed submersed circulating system, it sucks water from mid to low level of the tank into the canister. This makes a canister become much dirtier, much sooner.

An overflow only skims the surface. Al heavier dirt particles to heavy to ever reach the  upper water levels with the circulation will end up on the tanks bottom in the substrate. In comparance a sump cloges much slower if not at all. This is also something you need to experience with how it is setup while it is running.. This also depends on flow speed and if power heads are used for extra circulation. In my case i have just a moderately 4 times turn over flow. And especialy at startup when tanks create a lot of (larger particle) debri from melting leaves, growing and dying algea and wood dust etc. The substarte gets much more dirty than in a canister setup. The first months a had to do a lot of substrate cleaning, because this heavier stuff didn't end up in the filter.

My sump is running about 18 months now, yet never cleaned the biomedia, because it doesn't look like there is anything in there to clean.


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