# Lumen's



## flaviu.vlaicu (5 May 2010)

How many lumen does the Osram 965 and the Osram Fluora have ? Does any one know ? Thank you !


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## spider72 (5 May 2010)

This can depend on bulb technology, T5 or T8.

Lumen has no use as unit of power for light in relation to plants, as it is based on human eye sensitivity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumen_(unit) .
Plants are more "sensitive" to light at other wavelengths than our eyes.
Best unit of light power in relation to plants is PAR (Photosynthetically active radiation) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynth ... _radiation but it requires special meter to assess the light source.
For our use, simple and still quite adequate unit can be Watt/liter. With power of light at level of 0.6 Watt/liter in standard size tanks, you should be able to keep even light demanding plants, as long as nutrient limitation or CO2 limitation will not occur.


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## George Farmer (5 May 2010)

Ninja'd by spider!   To add...

Depends on the wattage.

Lumens are not important for plant growth.  More Lumens means it looks brighter to our eyes.

Our eyes are most sensitive to green, so lamps with more green in their spectrum will appear brighter.

But most green is not used by the plants...

So what looks like a brighter lamp (lots of green) may actually be less effective at growing plants than a dimmer lamp (lots of blue/red, important for photosynthesis).

I can assure you that any lamp you choose will be fine for growing plants, so long as there's enough of it, and you have appropriate nutrients.


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## flaviu.vlaicu (5 May 2010)

Thank you for your reply.I am usign 1x965 and 1xFluora from Osram at a 84L aquarium with a water column of 30cm in hight


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## spider72 (5 May 2010)

But, what is the wattage (power in watts) of each bulb?

Edit:
I have found parameters of your tank in other post. It looks like you have about 0.5 Watt/liter with tank depth of 30cm.
Level of light which you have got should be fine for almost all plants (light demanding as well), on condition that you will not starve them by nutrient or CO2 limitation, as mentioned before.

Edit2:
Other condition is that bulbs are not too high over tank (say 30cm), but close to the water surface (say 5-10cm).


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## flaviu.vlaicu (5 May 2010)

they are close to the water 3cm between the water and them .I want to somehow make room for another fluorescent tube under the top of the aquarium .Hope it will work


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## spider72 (5 May 2010)

I think that you've got enough light.

More light = more problems with plants, CO2 stability, algae etc, especially if you don't have too much experience.

You can add bulb reflectors if you don't have them to make light source more efficient, but by adding additional tube you're just asking for trouble.

Edit:

Look at my tank below, it is 50cm deep and has "only" 0.55 Watt/liter






and below the same tank, just 4 weeks later




















Belive me you've got enough light.


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## ceg4048 (6 May 2010)

Oooh..I love picture number 1 mate. Why did you let it go postal?

Cheers,


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## Garuf (6 May 2010)

Picture one is very nice indeed, what were you running light and filter wise? 0.5wpg strikes me as very low to have such good growth!


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## flaviu.vlaicu (6 May 2010)

The thing is that I wanted to make a carpet either from Hemianthus Cuba or from Glossostigma and with my only 2 fluorescent tubes the hemianthus for example is not growing in the sides ,instead is growing upwards.I was thinking that when I insert another tube to let the 2 tubes that I have now run till a specific hour and after that to start the third tube when the photosinsesis process is at it's peak.

Sorry for the grammar mistakes.My english kinda sucks


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## ceg4048 (6 May 2010)

No - grammar is excellent. It's your idea about light that sucks.

Trim the plants and add more CO2. Photosynthesis requires Light + H20 +CO2. Plants on land have plenty of light and plenty of CO2 so they are limited by the available H2O. Aquatic plants have plenty of Light and H2O but are always limited by available CO2. In poor CO2 environment they allocate their energy to grow tall so that they can reach the surface and access CO2. Since they don't have enough CO2 they cannot yet grow bulk. Altitude is more important so that they can reach the surface to breathe.

If you start adding more light without adding more CO2 they will disintegrate and as Spider says, you will have more algae which is a much bigger problem than tall Glosso.

Can you not see the evidence in Spider's photograph? What you cannot see in the photo is that he has excellent CO2 and flow distribution. If you continue to by hypnotized by light you will continue to have problems. Wake up and start thinking more about how to get better CO2 and flow down to your Hemianthius and Glosso. You're not asking the right questions...

Cheers,


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## George Farmer (6 May 2010)

Garuf said:
			
		

> 0.5wpg strikes me as very low to have such good growth!


spider has 0.5 watts per litre.  Roughly 2wpg. 

I cited 0.5 watts per litre as a good level to grow most plants few years ago in my first PFK planted tank article series.  For nano aquaria, 1 watt per litre is usually ok.


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## spider72 (6 May 2010)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Oooh..I love picture number 1 mate. Why did you let it go postal?
> 
> Cheers,



Well, one week I just have been lazy, than next two weeks I have been on holiday, and when I came back from holiday and have seen what hapend to the tank, I just needed one more week to gain mental strength to deal with this mess.
It took me almost whole day to put this back right. That's not the normal way for me to run the tank, but everybody has time of weakness from time to time  .



			
				Garuf said:
			
		

> ...0.5wpg strikes me as very low to have such good growth!



I'am not sure why I have such a good grow in my tank, as many of my friends have more light and poorer grow, and they are not limiting nutrients dosing as well.
My theory is, that my tank is truly only light limited. Adding more light is causing bigger CO2 instability and probably there is a short time of CO2 limitation each day during a photoperiod. Even if CO2 limitation is short lived plant will need some time (don't know maybe 15 min. to few hours) to recover/adjust. Add this daily lost time of growth together and this will affect growth rate over say 1 week period. But it is just my theory, I dont have any proofs to support this, but I can't think about other reasons science nutrients are not limited than more light should give more growth. If it's not the case than difference probably is coming from CO2 mild limitation, which is not affecting plant general condition, but is affecting plant growth rate I think.



			
				Garuf said:
			
		

> ...what were you running light and filter wise?


I use 10 hours straight photoperiod, but full power only for 8 hours. For first and last hour of photoperiod I use only 50% of light.
This is Fluval Viacenza 180 liters tank, and I use filter which came with the set, Fluval 205 (680 l/h) I only added better filter media. I also added small arcadia internal filter as CO2 diffusor/reactor and circulator (200 l/h) - see picture below - and I was using this configuration over one year with no problems with rather poor flow. I have added hydor2 pump 2-3 months ago, but more as a new toy rather than solution to some problems, but clearly my eleocharis acicularis carpet is benefiting from better flow, but this flow is not affecting taller steam plants.
Rate of flow is related to light. If there is less light than less flow will be required or sometime you can balance poor flow adding more ferts and CO2. For me "typical" EI dosing never worked great, and I have always used 150% EI dosing to keep my plants happy, despite my low light level, and I think it was related to poor flow in the tank.







			
				flaviu.vlaicu said:
			
		

> The thing is that I wanted to make a carpet either from Hemianthus Cuba or from Glossostigma and with my only 2 fluorescent tubes the hemianthus for example is not growing in the sides ,instead is growing upwards.I was thinking that when I insert another tube to let the 2 tubes that I have now run till a specific hour and after that to start the third tube when the photosinsesis process is at it's peak.


Hemianthus is not light demanding and I know aquarists who keep this plant with light at about 0.3 W/l. To make carpet from hemiantus you need prune this plant often, every week practically. I can't comment on glossostigma as I never had this plant, but because your tank is shallow (30cm) I think it should be not a problem to keep glosso at 0.5 W/l with good and stable CO2 and adequate amount of nutrients of course.

I think, that adding too much light is the most common mistake done by new hobbists, and there is long story behind this. Running planted tank with just enough amount of light is much, much ..... much easier. Listen to an old man   .

Edit:
If you've got some money to spend than bay solenoid for your CO2 system instead of additional light, it will be much wiser investment.


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## flaviu.vlaicu (7 May 2010)

What kind of fluorescent tubes are you using ? Cause in Romania you cannot find better tubes than the Osram 965,865 and the Osram Fluora


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## spider72 (7 May 2010)

I use Philips 965 + Sylvania Grolux. Tubes which you are using are equivalent to mine and are absolutely fine. 

Plants will do well even with popular daylight bulbs, as they are adapted to many conditions which can occure in their natural habitat. They can use also other pigments than chlorophyll to make the most of available light.


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## Garuf (7 May 2010)

Thanks, George, Spider! I knew I was missing a trick, 2wpg makes so much more sense. I'm with you spider, every time I've dosed EI to the letter I get shows of deficiency, I've always dosed double EI on my nanos and never once had issue.


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## flaviu.vlaicu (7 May 2010)

Is there a big difference between Hagen Flora Glo and Osram Fluora ? Does any one from here use Hagen Flora Glo ? I don't know anything about these tubes from hagen.The only thing that I know is that they cost a lot.


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## Garuf (8 May 2010)

All tubes are ultimately fine at growing plants. It's what's best to your eyes. Osram are good, I use them and had good results.


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## flaviu.vlaicu (8 May 2010)

*OFF Topic - Ballast*

A bit off topic : Is there a differce between magnetic ballast an electronic ballast ? Are the electronic oanes weaker as power output for the fluorescent tubes ? If YES how week ? "Someone told me that the electronic ballast has 40% less power than the magnetic ones.Is this true ?


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## George Farmer (10 May 2010)

Electronic ballasts are more efficient than magnetic so they use less power to give the same output from the lamp.  

In other words, using a magnetic ballast will use more power i.e. 40w to power a 20w lamp, but the output from the lamp is only 20w.  The other 20w is wasted in heat etc.

Generally magnetic ballasts are more reliable (you occasionally have to replace the starter that is cheap), but a good quality electronic ballast will last many many years.


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## GreenNeedle (10 May 2010)

To add to what George says.  the electronic ballast WILL make tubes last much longer before they drop off.  It starts the light much more efficiently so where on a magnetic ballast a tube may need replacing after 1-2 years on a magnetic ballast it may last 3+ years before it drops off.


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## flaviu.vlaicu (10 May 2010)

Someone told me that the electronic ballasts give 40% less power than the magnetic ones resulting in less light intensity that the tubes give.Is this true ?


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## GreenNeedle (10 May 2010)

In short...........
............that someone (to be polite  ) may have gotten a little confused 

They are missing the real point here.  Remember watts = power, lumens = brightness.  Neither = light.

What we are after is light.

What may have confused 'someone' is that the electronic ballast USES less power.  If anything the electronic ballast may GIVE more power because the output should have less fluctuation where the magnetic may move up and down a bit more.

So we don't particularly care how much power, or lumens it is. We want to know how much actual light comes out the other end.  If we can use less power and get brightness too then all the better.  So we use more efficient sources, a K rating that seems bright to us whilst trying to ensure that the output is sufficient for our needs 

AC


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## flaviu.vlaicu (10 May 2010)

I understand.thank you


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