# Is this diatom and am I doing ok?



## Stephen swan (20 Aug 2022)

Hi guys, so I am three weeks into this new planter tank and I have been hit with brown algae the last week and a half.
I’m hoping it is diatom and will pass but it looks unsightly and is starting to cover the Monte Carlo badly.
I have an RGB twin star light running  6 hours per day.
Co2 - I have increased the co2 to 2 bubbles per second.
Ada Amazonia ver 2
Ferts - specialised nutrition 1 pump per day.
Amonia and nitrite are now 0
Don’t have test for Nitrate 
Dosing with prime every water change
Doing water changes daily 40%.

The pictures don’t capture the mess but I just need some reassurance that I’m doing everything ok.
Would appreciate any advice


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## plantnoobdude (20 Aug 2022)

Stephen andrew swan said:


> Hi guys, so I am three weeks into this new planter tank and I have been hit with brown algae the last week and a half.
> I’m hoping it is diatom and will pass but it looks unsightly and is starting to cover the Monte Carlo badly.
> I have an RGB twin star light running  6 hours per day.
> Co2 - I have increased the co2 to 2 bubbles per second.
> ...


Yes, everything is fine, diatoms are really common in new set ups. Regular manual removal and good maintenance (which you already have covered), and this algae will Go away in a few weeks.


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## _Maq_ (20 Aug 2022)

It's just a personal opinion, of course, but _Bacopa caroliniana_ somehow strikes me as too *bold* for this tiny scape. What about _Eleocharis sp. Montevidensis_?


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## Stephen swan (20 Aug 2022)

_Mac_ I’m glad you said that cause I’ve been thinking exactly the same but didn’t want to mess around with it like I usually do untill the tank has stability. 
I wondered if the Bacopa would help with Nitrate and waste organics.
I defo agree it makes it look messy but am thinking to leave it for the next few weeks and then change the background to maybe _Eleocharis or  something red that doesn’t grow to fast. _


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## The Miniaturist (20 Aug 2022)

If you want a more delicate look, there's always bacopa monnieri. It has much smaller leaves & doesn't grow so aggressively, though it isn't red unfortunately!


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## Stephen swan (20 Aug 2022)

Might get some of that and line it up along the middle background


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## Stephen swan (20 Aug 2022)

Has anyone else got any suggestions with what background plants would make this 45p look more attractive ??


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## dw1305 (22 Aug 2022)

Hi all, 


Stephen andrew swan said:


> Has anyone else got any suggestions with what background plants would make this 45p look more attractive ??


_Cryptocoryne x willisii?  <"__https://tropica.com/en/plants/plantdetails/Cryptocorynexwillisii(107)/4559__">._

cheers Darrel


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## plantnoobdude (22 Aug 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> _Cryptocoryne x willisii?  <"__https://tropica.com/en/plants/plantdetails/Cryptocorynexwillisii(107)/4559__">._
> 
> cheers Darrel


This plant grows quite short in high light! 10-15cm max I found.


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## dw1305 (22 Aug 2022)

Hi all,


plantnoobdude said:


> This plant grows quite short in high light! 10-15cm max I found.





Stephen andrew swan said:


> _Eleocharis_ or something red that doesn’t grow to fast.


A <"taller _Cryptocoryne_ sp."> ?  or <"_C. wendtii_">.

cheers Darrel


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## Stephen swan (22 Aug 2022)

Just an update on this tank, starting to get worried about the amount of brown algae that is covering the Monte Carlo, it’s literally covered sections of the plant so it won’t be getting light . So difficult to remove without pulling the plant up. 
What can I do guys ??


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## Stephen swan (2 Sep 2022)

Just an update on my tank.
It’s now 6 weeks old and still no sign of the Diatoms going away.
I continue with daily water changes and cleaning my  oase thermo 100 once per week .
I have bought an electric timer for my Twinstar v3 s range that has 8 modes to change light intensity from 0-100%.

Just wondering if anyone can give me some advice on what intensity to have during my 8 hours .


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## PARAGUAY (2 Sep 2022)

Someone who uses that light may help with whether your intensity  is possibly too strong  which won't help. Just thinking your 2bubbles a second is on the low side and check your flow -is CO2 not getting to the carpet sufficient?  Can you add some fast growing stems and some floating plants. The aquarium is still in early days so give it time . Make any changes gradually


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## Stephen swan (2 Sep 2022)

Thanks for the reply Paraguay.
I will take a look at increasing Co2 gradually. 
Hopefully someone with Twinstar experience will be able to guide me.


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## GHNelson (3 Sep 2022)

Get some fast growing stem plants and use them as floating plants!!!
Thread 'Using stem plants as a filtering aid at Start Up!' Using stem plants as a filtering aid at Start Up!
hoggie


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## Stephen swan (3 Sep 2022)

PARAGUAY said:


> Someone who uses that light may help with whether your intensity  is possibly too strong  which won't help. Just thinking your 2bubbles a second is on the low side and check your flow -is CO2 not getting to the carpet sufficient?  Can you add some fast growing stems and some floating plants. The aquarium is still in early days so give it time . Make any changes gradually


Do you think two bubbles per second is low on a 45p tank ? Only dealing with 30 litres of water at a push. I think if I push it up anymore the drop checker will turn yellow and be a risk to shrimp. 
Still hoping someone with RGB high lighting experience can guide me in terms of intensity and setting up light controller.


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## PARAGUAY (4 Sep 2022)

Your right to be wary of too much CO2 and livestock. Your ok if it's green,some prefer yellow and handle it well but if anything goes a miss? Take a look at Carbon Dioxide sticky threads    
 @zeus  gives a good explanation of dialling in CO2. Like l said any changes should be slowly done esp CO2. Often  flow is the issue.  You could email Dave or Steve at Aquarium Gardens they use and stock twinstar lights. Hope this helps


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## Stephen swan (4 Sep 2022)

I noticed some bubble on the surface yesterday and tested the water and it had 50ppm of NH3 so I’ve removed all livestock and put them in a separate tank.
Last night I smashed the tank with numerous water changes and cleaning and removed endless amounts of rotting plant diatoms and  dirt. 
The filter can obviously not cope with the spike oase thermo smart 100. 
Today I am going to get some fast growing stem plants and floating plants.
I’m reading conflicting info about light intensity in this situation some say dial it down others say keep it at 100% for full duration . Your comments defo help because it’s just cool to interact with someone instead of just reading and watching green aqua videos lol.
I will email Dave from AG as that’s who I bought by light off so would be good to hear his thoughts .


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## PARAGUAY (4 Sep 2022)

MDfishtanks is good one to watch he glady shows you any issues with diatoms or algae unlike many you tubers who try convince you to purchase something.
             As soon as you can as well as your shrimp try to add some some Otto's they are good at algae issues.


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## Stephen swan (6 Sep 2022)

Still struggling with the diatoms.
Couldn’t find any content on diatoms from Mdfishtanks .
I’ve spoke to two separate planted aquarium specialists regarding that to do regarding lighting , one said turn the intensity right down and the other said ramp it up .pulling y hair out with it. 
Continue to do daily 75 % water changes and manual removal of diatoms . 
Surely someone on here knows the science behind this stuff and how to combat it. 
At present I have lights on for 7 hours with intensity ranging from 60-100%.


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## Stephen swan (6 Sep 2022)

I’ve also added some fast growing stem plants and floating plants


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## Stephen swan (6 Sep 2022)




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## PARAGUAY (7 Sep 2022)

Stephen swan said:


> I’ve also added some fast growing stem plants and floating plants


Give it a bit of time and l would agree on 60% rather than 100 with the light


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## John q (7 Sep 2022)

Stephen swan said:


> I’ve spoke to two separate planted aquarium specialists regarding that to do regarding lighting , one said turn the intensity right down and the other said ramp it up .


Maybe they are both right 🤷‍♂️

From my own observations having the intensity higher in some situations can get rid of diatoms, however what tended to follow the diatoms was other forms of algae. Lowering the intensity also got rid of diatoms. 

My advice for what it's worth would be reduce the light intensity to 50% for now and concentrate on your co2, is it stable throughout the light period, is there sufficient flow to get it down to the carpet? 

Will also repeat what others have said in regards to fast growing plants, floating plants and patience.


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## Stephen swan (7 Sep 2022)

Ok I’ve reduced the Intensity to 50% for 7 hours. 
How do I know it the co2 is reaching the carpets ? Would it be worth buying a wave maker or sticking a small air pump in ?


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## John q (7 Sep 2022)

Stephen swan said:


> How do I know it the co2 is reaching the carpets ?


Ideally you want to see the water gently flowing at substrate level, is there any movement with the plants at the bottom of the tank? Watching the path of the co2 bubbles should also give you a good idea what the flow is like in the tank.


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## Stephen swan (7 Sep 2022)

No, defo parts of the lower tank that have no plant movement but I only have one Lilly pipe so understandable that it’s not pushing water around at lower levels.
Co2 bubbles are visible somewhat at the opp side of the diffuser but mainly in the middle waters .
If this is a flow issue I will happily stick a air pump in


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## John q (7 Sep 2022)

Stephen swan said:


> If this is a flow issue I will happily stick a air pump in


If you're meaning an air stone then that would be counter productive. I think you possibly do need to look at increasing flow around the tank. I'm not familiar with the filter you have but if it's rammed with media then that will reduce flow, what's inside the filter? If its got sponges and ceramic rings inside then you could experiment and remove SOME of those rings, obviously if the livestock is back in the tank, and considering its a relatively new set up one would be wise to proceed with caution and only remove small amounts of the rings at a time. 
Failing that I guess you'd be looking at alternative sources to increase the circulation in the tank. Wavemaker etc.

Whatever you do you don't need to turn the tank into a washing machine, ideally you want a nice gentle flow all around the tank, blasting the plants so they end up horizontal isn't what's required.


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## Stephen swan (7 Sep 2022)

Nah I meant an wave maker or a small pump to circulate the water but for now I will just move the l pipe higher during the night and take a look at making the filter less packed out. I will cut some foams.
This is my filter 








						Oase FiltoSmart Thermo 100 Aquarium External Filter
					

A great little external filter for Nano aquariums (30-60L) with a built in heater. Product characteristics Individual temperature On request,




					www.aquariumgardens.co.uk


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## JoshP12 (8 Sep 2022)

John q said:


> Maybe they are both right 🤷‍♂️


they both are right.

High intensity with appropriate co2 application and ferts = faster photosynthetic rate = more oxygen in the system = increased stability

Old school fish keepers and books associate diatoms with low O2 and say to turn up lights … recall old school never dosed much of any ferts so they were N limiting and had a lower cap on co2 so they were virtually always in co2 excess if they had proper equipment - Dupla systems for example.

Turning down the light will increase the likelihood that co2 and fert application is done “properly” (plant isn’t stressed) and this will lead to a more stable environment … etc.


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## JoshP12 (8 Sep 2022)

When you water change, go right down to the Monte Carlo ~90% for now, then walk away and do something else before refilling.

Set a 5 minute timer and leave. This will let all those plants soak up o2 and co2 from the atmosphere.

Then refill.

If you can, do your water change right before lights on or 1 hour into photoperiod letting that atmospheric gas get sucked up.

Remove half of your filter media to increase flow rate. No cotton. Only those sponge for mechanical removal.

Lights I’ll leave up to you 50 or 100. IMO if you are doing the water change and let all those plants get Co2 and O2 during photoperiod, you better have it at 100  since it won’t be gas limiting. But both will work don’t stress just pick one and do it.

Double down on water change and waste removal. Your work now pays dividends.

Every water change, a new 1 pump of ferts.


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## Stephen swan (8 Sep 2022)

water parameters. 
pH is 7.4 before co2
pH is 6.4 after co2 has been on 7 hours
Amonia 0
Nitrite 0
GH 120
kH 40
Temp - 23c


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## _Maq_ (9 Sep 2022)

JoshP12 said:


> Set a 5 minute timer and leave. This will let all those plants soak up o2 and co2 from the atmosphere.
> Then refill.


Do you suggest that plants posses a kind of pump to change the CO2 and O2 content within 5 minutes substantially?


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## JoshP12 (9 Sep 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> Do you suggest that plants posses a kind of pump to change the CO2 and O2 content within 5 minutes substantially?


Pump? No. A form of stomata and a sack to store gas, likely.

Unique to species. And adaptation. 

Could be thought of as a pump depends how you think of it I guess? Pressure …


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## _Maq_ (9 Sep 2022)

JoshP12 said:


> A form of stomata and a sack to store gas, likely.


In submerged plants, stomata are usually missing.
But, yes, submerged plants possess 'sacks' - aerenchyma - for gas transport. I just doubt that mere 5 minutes can make much of a difference. I don't know, only guessing.


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## JoshP12 (9 Sep 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> In submerged plants, stomata are usually missing.
> But, yes, submerged plants possess 'sacks' - aerenchyma - for gas transport. I just doubt that mere 5 minutes can make much of a difference. I don't know, only guessing.


Thanks for this maq — next time I do it, I’ll pay attention to when they start to wither/dry out. 

It was more of a “give them a second” and 5 minutes is tangible enough and a good amount of time that they won’t dry out but be able to get some gas to help (more effectively than dissolved gas in water).


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## Stephen swan (10 Sep 2022)

Do you guys think having moonlight on for 4 hours after lights off would affect diatoms?
For example having the Twinstar on 1% just so I can enjoy the tank on the evening ??
Or is 1% light to low for diatoms to  grow??


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## Stephen swan (14 Sep 2022)

Something wrong with my setup even the easy plants are showing poor growth . Heteranthera is even struggling, I can see pearling on it but leaves are starting to develop dark spots 
S repens the same .
Please can someone help me out and give me some ideas as to what is off?


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## The Miniaturist (14 Sep 2022)

I run low tech, low light tanks with no co2 so I'm probably not the best to give advice.
However, your plants seem to be deteriorating & algae getting the upper hand & I was wondering whether the huge daily water changes were stripping the water column of nutrients. If there's no food, the plants can't grow. So you could try to either increase the ferts, dosing after a water change or reduce the volume of water you take out each time.
I think flow is important too, whether your set up is high or low tech, getting the plants gently swaying from surface to substrate.


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## Stephen swan (14 Sep 2022)

Water is showing high levels of nitrites but I’m unsure if tropica is causing false positive .


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## John q (14 Sep 2022)

Stephen swan said:


> Please can someone help me out and give me some ideas as to what is off?


Sorry to hear things aren't improving Stephen.

Looking at those latest pictures I can't help but think these issues are CO2 related, but I could well be wrong.
Assuming you still dose 2ml of specialized every day (especially after a water change) and considering you have amazonia aqua soil I'm sceptical lack of ferts is the problem.
Did you have any luck increasing the flow, is there any noticeable difference regards the movement of plants/co2 bubbles circulating around the tank.

You stated earlier the ph just before the lights go out, what's the ph just before the lights come on.
Is the light still at 50%?
And final question, do you have a picture of the floating plants.


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## _Maq_ (14 Sep 2022)

Stephen swan said:


> How do I know it the co2 is reaching the carpets ?


Why do the carpet plants cover densely the substrate and don't grow up like the others? Have you ever asked this question?
The answer is that they collect CO2 from microbial respiration in the substrate. Densely covering the substrate not to miss a bit of it.


Stephen swan said:


> Water is showing high levels of nitrites


That seems to confirm my suspicion that you have too much organics in your substrate as well as in the water column. Microbes proliferate and oxygen consumption is high. Nitrifying bacteria are autotrophs who lose in competition for oxygen with heterotrophs. Nitrification is hindered. Ammonia & nitrites may rise up.
Suggestions: Several major water changes during next several days. Oxygenation. Activated carbon or Purigen in the filter.


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## Stephen swan (14 Sep 2022)

pH is 7.4 before co2
pH is 6.4 after co2 has been on 
I’ve turned my light up to 60-80%
 I am more inclined to think that the water hardness is causing the plants not to uptake nutrients and co2 .
I’m also worried about the livestock in the tank because today I’ve noticed fish gasping for air and like I said nitrite is showing. 
These are all easy plants so shouldn’t be suffering like this . 
I planted some new Monte Carlo on Saturday and most of it has rotted within 5 days and the bit that’s left has white to pale green colour . I have taken some of the floating plants out because I was worried it was blocking all the light so the surface is 25% covered with floaters


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## _Maq_ (14 Sep 2022)

Stephen swan said:


> I’ve noticed fish gasping for air


Like I said: Oxygen deficit.


Stephen swan said:


> I am more inclined to think that the water hardness is causing the plants not to uptake nutrients and co2 .


That's a nonsense. Do as you wish, mate.


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## Stephen swan (14 Sep 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> Why do the carpet plants cover densely the substrate and don't grow up like the others? Have you ever asked this question?
> The answer is that they collect CO2 from microbial respiration in the substrate. Densely covering the substrate not to miss a bit of it.
> 
> That seems to confirm my suspicion that you have too much organics in your substrate as well as in the water column. Microbes proliferate and oxygen consumption is high. Nitrifying bacteria are autotrophs who lose in competition for oxygen with heterotrophs. Nitrification is hindered. Ammonia & nitrites may rise up.
> Suggestions: Several major water changes during next several days. Oxygenation. Activated carbon or Purigen in the filter.


So what is the answer ? Apart from doing water changes, I’ve been doing daily water changes for 7 weeks now.
Sorry but your scientific knowledge isn’t giving me insight into what is wrong and what I need to fix it .


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## _Maq_ (14 Sep 2022)

Low CO2 does not kill plants. Low O2 does.
All aquasoils be damned. They are full of organics and generate high oxygen consumption.
I've already said my suggestions. Turn off CO2 and oxygenate.


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## Stephen swan (14 Sep 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> Low CO2 does not kill plants. Low O2 does.
> All aquasoils be damned. They are full of organics and generate high oxygen consumption.
> I've already said my suggestions. Turn off CO2 and oxygenate.


How do you suggest I oxygenate ? Water changes , air stone . Move Lilly pipe to surface ??
Turn off co2 for how long? Until plants recover ?
What about lighting and ferts ? 
Should I turn lights down ? Should I stop dosing ?


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## _Maq_ (14 Sep 2022)

Stephen swan said:


> How do you suggest I oxygenate ? Water changes , air stone . Move Lilly pipe to surface ??


Whatever you have at hand. Myself, I'm using venturi. Air stone would help, too. Moving surface by whatever means helps, too.


Stephen swan said:


> Turn off co2 for how long? Until plants recover ?


I suppose you are not overdosing CO2. (Yet maybe you are?) CO2 will be quickly leaving water while you're oxygenating. So it's not a remedy, just to avoid injecting CO2 in vain.


Stephen swan said:


> Should I turn lights down ? Should I stop dosing ?


These are secondary issues. I'd suggest keep lighting in the mid-range and quit dosing for a while.
What I have learnt about plants is this: There's never CO2 deficit that would kill the plants. Nutrition deficit kills pretty slowly. Oxygen deficit kills in hours.


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## Stephen swan (14 Sep 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> Whatever you have at hand. Myself, I'm using venturi. Air stone would help, too. Moving surface by whatever means helps, too.
> 
> I suppose you are not overdosing CO2. (Yet maybe you are?) CO2 will be quickly leaving water while you're oxygenating. So it's not a remedy, just to avoid injecting CO2 in vain.
> 
> ...


Well that makes sense cause these new plants have died within days, but what is causing the issues?


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## _Maq_ (14 Sep 2022)

It always happens with newly planted plants because they get damaged and leach organic compounds. But the case is much more severe if you use 'aquasoil' containing easily degradable organic matter = food for microbes. They eat and BREATHE. They breed and attack the plants.


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## Stephen swan (14 Sep 2022)

I have placed an airstone near the intake and have completed large water change.
I’ve dimmed the lights down to 50%.
I disturbed the soil on Saturday when replanting , wonder if this has caused issues


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## PARAGUAY (14 Sep 2022)

Going off your picture l think it's a light /CO2 issue  not your fertiliser which is tropica specialised which has all 14 essential nutrients. If your lighting is to high and your CO2 inconsistent the plants suffer.and algae takes over Did you add plenty of stem plants? Add a lot more you could let them float. I would keep up with water changes and try to get ripple of surface movement
                      After a soil disturbance  adding a small internal filter for 24 hours with filter floss helps. Also sorry you've had these issues but do things slowly and  good luck


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## Stephen swan (14 Sep 2022)

The new plants dying off so quick makes me suspicious that it’s not light or co2 related .
I have had lights Running at max 70% intensity and good amount of co2 going in .
New plants that went in on Saturday have took a beating which why _Mac_ suggested that it’s rotting organics causing lack of oxygen and spikes in nitrites.
But I’m still not sure what I am doing wrong and what to do in the long run.
The future of this tank isn’t looking very good to be honest.
I thought a good quality light, co2 , good substrate, decent ferts and plenty of maintenance would see this tank bloom but it’s been far from enjoyable so far and the most demotivating thing is I am totally unsure of what is going wrong and how to fix it


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## PARAGUAY (14 Sep 2022)

Not trying be negative about high end lighting but many grew plants just fine with t8s fluorescents and later t5 a single tube enough. and still used widely If your convinced CO2 is ok, try verify moving the drop checker in different areas of tank. Bit concerned about new plants degrading that fast were they really healthy. @_Maq_ will know more than me about substrate science.Initially  seemed like a diatom issue not melt. @John q  asked for pic of the floating plants which could help. If it's defiency it would indicate


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## _Maq_ (15 Sep 2022)

Stephen swan said:


> I disturbed the soil on Saturday when replanting , wonder if this has caused issues


Yes, very likely.


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## _Maq_ (15 Sep 2022)

Stephen swan said:


> But I’m still not sure what I am doing wrong and what to do in the long run.


It's *the substrate*. Experienced hobbyists can handle it by patience and many water changes. You've probably planted your tank too early.
Substrates of this kind are full of nutrients, but also organic matter. That's the core of the problem. I would never recommend aquasoils to anyone, perhaps with the exception of advanced scapers who know what to expect and how to handle it.


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## The Miniaturist (15 Sep 2022)

So how does this not happen to everyone using these substrates @_Maq_ , is it down to the pH, water hardness or something else?
I've used Tropica soil for years, even swapped it out for their substrate capped with sand & only had a few crypt leaves melt. You would have thought with my basic equipment & small water changes I'd have had a disaster.
@Stephen swan seems to have set everything up no differently from the way other aquarists set up high tech tanks, yet there is still _ something_  not right, no wonder he's becoming disheartened.


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## Stephen swan (15 Sep 2022)




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## _Maq_ (15 Sep 2022)

The Miniaturist said:


> So how does this not happen to everyone using these substrates @_Maq_ , is it down to the pH, water hardness or something else?


Frankly, I don't know. I can only guess. There are several points to consider:
(1) Soils from different sources differ from each other. Maybe even soils branded all the same (to hold customers to the brand name) evolve/innovate somehow during time.
(2) I would not underestimate the stuff connected with in-vitro plants. If you don't wash them of all the agar, you invite trouble. Also, in theory, in-vitro plants are free of pests, but we know the reality, it's not always so, and sometimes the killer is invisible but already present. Lately, @Simon Cole informed me of another bunch of possible problems connected with using phytohormones during in-vitro cultivation.
(3) Many microbes reflect pH somehow. In general, pH between 7 and 8 is considered best for breeding unspecified bacteria. Yet there are exemptions, specialists... and then consider all their possible combinations!
(4) Microbes remain quite mysterious, all the same. Including protists and microalgae. They sometimes appear and then disappear for reasons we can hardly discern. I think it's partially subject to pure chance, too. A new tank is an uncolonized land to them, full of promises. Those which arrive first, proliferate quickly, facing little competition. Depending on which ones they are, they somehow influence their environment for a long time after. Can you get the point? Both cows and hares eat the grass, but their impact on the rest of the world (biotope) is different. After a period of time, all meadows develop complete and balanced fauna, not only cows and hares, but also rodents, foxes, wolves, falcons... The system gets complete and stabilized. But it takes time.

So, I truly don't know. Even with carefully washed silica sand and patient cycling without plants, tank starts are often difficult and I suffer painful losses. Hell, I do! I'm not the kind of wizard who solved these troubles once and for all. But experience taught me to be always wary of organic pollutants. I support their faster degradation by oxygenation & water current, I often apply activated carbon or Purigen, and of course, water changes are a must, the more so the younger the tank is. Only after roughly 6 to 12 months things usually get somehow 'settled'.


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## dw1305 (15 Sep 2022)

Hi all,


_Maq_ said:


> After a period of time, all meadows develop complete and balanced fauna, not only cows and hares, but also rodents, foxes, wolves, falcons... The system gets complete and stabilized. But it takes time.


That would be my point as well, basically  <"_good things come to those who wait__">_ and <"_diversity brings  both stability and resilience_"_>_.  It is partially because I'm <"incredibly lazy"> and it gives me an escape clause when I haven't carried out maintenance etc.

This is what  <"Dr Stephan Tanner"> has to say, I have a <"lot of time for Dr Tanner">:


> *......... Water filtration is teamwork by the members of the substrate microbial community from all domains of life*. This is an important conclusion, both for freshwater and marine habitats. The different players form a food web, where *most organisms cannot exist alone but are interdependent*. The microbial community varies greatly depending on the availability of foods, pore sizes, and substrates. Soil biofiltration is therefore very plastic, meaning it can cope with a variety of conditions. However, one feature is common. *Natural layers of biofiltration are usually undisturbed for longer periods of time (many weeks and months).* In nature, no one squeezes out the debris or rinses the media on a weekly schedule. .......


Along <"with inertia"> I tend to work on the <"_three strikes and your out_"> principle for all of plants, fish and tank management techniques.

cheers Darrel


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## Stephen swan (15 Sep 2022)

Whilst you all talk science I am losing my fight with this tank .
I have completed daily water changes throughout sometimes twice daily.
I have physically removed diatoms 
I have checked co2 amounts and feel I am on the money with the amount needed for this tank . 
I might have flow issues but I don’t believe  flow issues would kill new plants this fast .
I have added floating plans and fast stem plants which the latter have died within days . I have decreased lights and still not seen any  improvement. 
I have dosed ferts daily never missing a day. 
Basically I have wasted 7 weeks of my life fighting a losing battle and still have no answers to what is wrong.
One last thing to try is to get a small pump to improve flow but apart from that I am at a loss and don’t think anyone who has chipped in can give me any ideas on what is wrong .
Thanks for everyone that has tried to help.


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## sparkyweasel (15 Sep 2022)

Sorry if I've missed it further up the thread, but have you done a pH profile?

How to


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## Stephen swan (15 Sep 2022)

sparkyweasel said:


> Sorry if I've missed it further up the thread, but have you done a pH profile?
> 
> How to


water parameters. 
pH is 7.4 before co2
pH is 6.4 after co2 has been on 7 hours
Amonia 0
Nitrite 0
GH 120
kH 40
Temp - 23c


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## dw1305 (15 Sep 2022)

Hi all,


Stephen swan said:


> and don’t think anyone who has chipped in can give me any ideas on what is wrong .


Apologies, we are trying, and you will eventually get there, but there are potentially a lot of <"moving bits to line up">.


Stephen swan said:


> I have added floating plans and fast stem plants which the latter have died within days . I have decreased lights and still not seen any improvement.
> I have dosed ferts daily never missing a day.
> Basically I have wasted 7 weeks of my life fighting a losing battle and still have no answers to what is wrong.
> One last thing to try is to get a small pump to improve flow but apart from that I am at a loss and don’t think anyone who has chipped in can give me any ideas on what is wrong .


The  <"Floating fern"> (_Salvinia _auriculata group_) _ looks OK, but it doesn't look like it is romping away and it has a very "low light" look.  Have a look at <"Salvinia Cucullata">, that is what high light _Salvinia _looks like.






The marks are fungal. but look like they might have appeared on leaves damaged  by fertiliser burn or <"water droplet lensing">. Because it is a floating plant, neither flow nor CO2 is really relevant. I'll copy in @KirstyF because she had a thread <"Salvinia issue?"> which never really had a conclusion.

I'd try turning the light back up, if your floating plant doesn't improve you will know it isn't light, flow or CO2, and that only leaves the <"fourteen mineral nutrients">.

cheers Darrel


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## _Maq_ (15 Sep 2022)

Stephen swan said:


> I have added floating plans and fast stem plants which the latter have died within days


You still don't believe me. Perhaps my poor English, or because I'm in a minority. It's a pity.
What's the main difference between floating and submerged plants? Floating plants take gasses (carbon dioxide and oxygen) from the air above the water surface.


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## PARAGUAY (15 Sep 2022)

Might be a good time to immerse yourself in the Journals @Stephen swan  you can see all kinds of problems can affect a planted aquarium in the early stages . I am also in the if you struggle with a plant ,try another, like Darrel .


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## Stephen swan (16 Sep 2022)

PARAGUAY said:


> Might be a good time to immerse yourself in the Journals @Stephen swan  you can see all kinds of problems can affect a planted aquarium in the early stages . I am also in the if you struggle with a plant ,try another, like Darrel .


Which journals ?


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## PARAGUAY (16 Sep 2022)

I don't really bookmark journals just tend to look in on them. Just a matter of looking through and follow the journey. I always refer back must have read loads of times the articles/ tutorials .You could ask admin to put your journey as a journal. Put plenty more pictures up


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## Stephen swan (16 Sep 2022)

*not much left in terms of plants now even the floating plants roots have loads of Diatoms attached . I would say another week and this tank will be boxed up and placed in the loft 
Still have no clue what is wrong apart from Mac saying something wrong with the ADA soil and bacteria growing in it causing poor oxygen . *


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## Stephen swan (16 Sep 2022)




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## LMuhlen (16 Sep 2022)

If you are ready to give up, maybe it is time for some different approaches...

I'd try activated carbon or similar. Maybe there is something nasty in your water that it may remove. At the very least, it may reduce the oxygen load by removing eventual dissolved organics.

Did you try snails? I had some good experience with them eating brown algae.

Despite all the algae, I don't see in your pictures clear signs of the plants dying at the rate you are describing.


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## Stephen swan (16 Sep 2022)

PARAGUAY said:


> I don't really bookmark journals just tend to look in on them. Just a matter of looking through and follow the journey. I always refer back must have read loads of times the articles/ tutorials .You could ask admin to put your journey as a journal. Put plenty more pictures up


I have read George farmer book front to back and have watched nearly every video from green aqua on YouTube . 
I have been doing planted scapes for a few years on and off so have good basic knowledge .
It’s not like I’m brand new to this but I think the issues with this tank go beyond basic knowledge and even the advanced scapers are struggling to give me advice on causes and cures .
Mac has put it down to soil
Others have said co2 and flow  and one or two have said lighting .


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## Stephen swan (16 Sep 2022)

LMuhlen said:


> If you are ready to give up, maybe it is time for some different approaches...
> 
> I'd try activated carbon or similar. Maybe there is something nasty in your water that it may remove. At the very least, it may reduce the oxygen load by removing eventual dissolved organics.
> 
> ...


I have purigen in the filter


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## _Maq_ (16 Sep 2022)

If things go in this completely unsatisfactory direction, I'd suggest to take a rest - both physical and emotional. We have all gone through failures, all honest hobbyists would confirm that.
Enough to say, there's something wrong in the tank. @dw1305 quoted some source which described it excellently. In fact, everything is controlled by microbes. And given time, things will get working smoothly.
In your shoes, I'd turn off all stuff (except the filter, perhaps), cover the tank with a blanket, and forget about it for several (I mean, at least five) weeks. Occasionally, you can make partial water changes. And then, relaxed, you can come back. It's likely that you'll be more successful.* Don't give up! *


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## KirstyF (16 Sep 2022)

Regarding my salvinia issue. Never really solved it as such. Pretty sure it wasn’t fertiliser burn as changing the way I dosed made no difference. The die off was worst where the plants sat on top of very dense curled up Vals on the surface but improved when some of the Vals were cleared and it also improved as the tank matured. It will now tolerate denser Vals better than before, but I still get a wee bit of die off if they get too manic. (Believe me they can get awfully busy)

So for me, it could be a lack of circulation to the roots or detritus build up as junk gets caught up in the Vals or AN other but not sure how much this really helps you I’m afraid.

Regarding your issues, my 5 pennies worth:

I know it’s not ur first rodeo so apologies if anything here is like teaching you to suck eggs but it’s just my take.

Looks like a large percentage of your plant mass is Monte Carlo, which is a bugger to clear/clean and does a great job of capturing any detritus and decaying matter (especially if flow is a little suspect)  It also ideally likes a reasonable amount of light and it’s fairly keen on Co2.

Higher light in a new tank is a bit of an invitation for issues, as is inconsistent Co2.

You mention your Co2 drop after 7hrs but Co2 should be consistent from lights on to lights off!! (I might be misinterpreting this, apologies if that is the case) 

You’ve also had new aquasoil which some plants can be sensitive to for a multitude of reasons.

As mentioned, processing organics from either the soil or from decaying matter all sucks up oxygen too.

The highlight for me here is that you are getting nitrites, which is ideally not something you ought to be seeing 7 weeks in and would imply that your bacterial colony is not coping with what is being thrown at it. 

If it were me, I would either do what @_Maq_ has suggested and pull the plants, put the tank into a dark start, let it cycle for a good while and then start again or, if that seems too harsh, pull the Monte Carlo, lower the light somewhat, add a whole bunch of of cheap rapid easy stems that will work with that lower light and let the tank cycle out that way for a good while before starting again. 

I am not an expert, but I’ve never had an algae issue starting a tank out with lower light…..and on that basis, I’ve never started a tank with plants that want higher light. 

My main high tech tank (with aquasoil) only had a two week dark start before planting, then daily water changes for 10 days, moving to twice per week for around 3 weeks and then to once per week. My low tech (with just 20% aquasoil to inert sand) I just threw a ton of easy fast growing stuff in and went straight to weekly water changes. (Not exactly following recommended practice) 

…..But both were low light start ups (the low tech remains that way) and the only algae I ever experienced was a little gsa. I’ve had some further algae issues as I’ve increased light in the high tank but mostly specific to slow growers and all pretty low level so very manageable. 

I think it’s often too much too soon that brings new tanks down and once the damage cycle sets in, it can be really tough to bring it back. 

Could be simply that the conditions weren’t right for the Monte Carlo to thrive and that tipped the balance. Deterioration creates organics, that feeds algae and bacteria, causes reduction in oxygen, makes the system less hospitable, all of which causes more organics and so on….before you know it you are in a hole you can’t climb out of. 

Letting the system mature somewhat before you ask it to do anything too challenging at least improves your odds….and making sure you have the right conditions and a good balance in place at the outset helps (good stable Co2, good flow, not too much light) That way the issues are less likely to run away on you like a steam train.

I really do hope you get it sorted and it doesn’t end up in the loft 🙁 what doesn’t kill us makes us stronger right!……so odds on, your next bash at it, is gonna rock!! 👍😊


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## Stephen swan (16 Sep 2022)

Thanks for that Kirsty F, allot of good points made and do agree that once things turn a corner it’s hard to pull it back. 
Don’t think I would touch Monte Carlo again, it doesn’t seem to root very well.
If the worst happens I will take your advice add some cheap easy plants and let the tank mature and then maybe in a few months try again.


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## The Miniaturist (17 Sep 2022)

Please don't give up, heaving the thing into the loft seems way too much effort! I'm sure many of us have had a tank which, looking back, was a total failure. I know I have!
What @KirstyF said seems an excellent plan to save your sanity & save the tank. Many people do a dark start like @_Maq_ suggested or there's the throw in lots of easy stems method but both ways keep your system running otherwise it's back to the start again.
Your vision for the layout may have to change but that's the nature of it after all & there are plenty of plants out there still to try!


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## Stephen swan (17 Sep 2022)

Stephen swan said:


> Thanks for all the encouragement guys, sorry for getting frustrated. I won’t give up on this hobby. Perseverance is key I think .


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## Stephen swan (18 Sep 2022)

I don’t want to speak to soon but I think things are slowly improving since I put a air stone in here set to nighttime when lights are out. I’m seeing less diatoms and more healthy growth from Monte Carlo and S repens. @_Maq_ i think you where on the money my friend .
Nitrites -0
I’ve also noticed PH is slightly higher .
Waiting for small usb pump coming which will hopefully help flow and Co2 distribution.


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## The Miniaturist (18 Sep 2022)

Fingers crossed it's starting to come right at last! 🤞🏻


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## Stephen swan (20 Sep 2022)

So just an update and another plea for some advice to keep me going in the right direction.
I’ve added a very small usb pump into the far top right hand corner and have a good flow moving around the tank in a circular motion.
Should I start the co2 and ferts dosing again ? Also what should I do with the floating plants I have left, allot of the roots are covered in brown algae , should I keep them in?


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## dw1305 (21 Sep 2022)

Hi all, 


Stephen swan said:


> Also what should I do with the floating plants I have left, allot of the roots are covered in brown algae , should I keep them in?


Yes, keep them, trying giving them a rinse under a fairly gentle running tap.

cheers Darrel


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## PARAGUAY (21 Sep 2022)

It looks like you have a improvement#81 so just my opinion l wouldn't start CO2 just yet ,continue what your doing and let it stabalise. them you could.


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## Stephen swan (24 Sep 2022)

Another update so restarted Co2 and no difference  , still got diatoms mainly on Monte Carlo substrate level. I think I am going to raise the intensity of the light slowly and see if I can get some good growth as the MC seems to have stalled .
I haven’t started ferts and don’t think I will until the brown stuff clears off


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## John q (24 Sep 2022)

Stephen swan said:


> . I think I am going to raise the intensity of the light slowly and see if I can get some good growth.


You'll probably ignore my advice but aquatic plants don't need high light...


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## dw1305 (24 Sep 2022)

Hi all,


Stephen swan said:


> I haven’t started ferts and don’t think I will until the brown stuff clears off


I'd add the fertilisers.

I know it is difficult, but try not to concentrate on the algae.

You need to concentrate on the plants, get the plants growing and everything else will follow. Your <"plants can't make use"> of the added CO2 if one, or more, of the mineral nutrients is deficient.

cheers Darrel


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## MichaelJ (24 Sep 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'd add the fertilisers.
> 
> ...



I agree.   

@Stephen swan, Start a fertilizer regime right away. The fertilizer we add (usually) won't cause algae - lack of fertilizer and imbalance will. Diatoms are almost inevitable in a new tank. As soon as the tank settles in and mature the algae/diatoms will fade away. It may take a couple of months in some cases. Keep your light intensity moderate, make sure you have adequate flow around the tank and keep up a good maintenance schedule.

Cheers,
Michael


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## Stephen swan (24 Sep 2022)

I have some tropica specialised nutrition at hand how much should I put in per day at this stage ? 
Light schedule 
11am 50%
12.00- 65%
14.00- 70%
17.00-60%


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## The Miniaturist (24 Sep 2022)

I would dose fertilizer by what it says on the bottle to begin with & see how the plants behave.


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## Stephen swan (24 Sep 2022)

It only has weekly dose guide and I’m still doing daily water changes so need to dose daily .
I suppose I could check the weekly recommendation dose and divide by 7


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## Stephen swan (24 Sep 2022)

Keeping it as clean as I possibly can…. It’s hard work like.
Haven’t missed a days water changing and vacuuming in 8 weeks .


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## MichaelJ (25 Sep 2022)

Stephen swan said:


> I have some tropica specialised nutrition at hand how much should I put in per day at this stage ?



I haven't read the whole thread., so I didn't pick up your tank size and specific plants and other finer points, so take my advice with a bit of caution  but with respect to dosing and Tropica Specialized I would aim for 1-2 ppm of N weekly. Say for a 50 L that would be 6 ML or 3 pumps per week. (What Tropica recommends) depending on your WC schedule and amount. 

On a side note, I've been dosing this for almost 6 months now in one of my tanks (as an experiment) and all plants (easy plants) are thriving.

Cheers,
Michael


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## Miniandy (25 Sep 2022)

As it would appear that your turning a corner, just curious as to your nitrate and ammonia levels now that your adding air overnight


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## Stephen swan (25 Sep 2022)

Miniandy said:


> As it would appear that your turning a corner, just curious as to your nitrate and ammonia levels now that your adding air overnight


I havent tested for weeks.


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## The Miniaturist (25 Sep 2022)

The photos show you're getting new growth & it looks much better. 🙂
Perhaps you could alter your water changes to every other day instead of daily, dosing the ferts a couple of times a week after changes. It would give you a well earned break from the daily maintenance & give the plants a chance of using the available nutrients.


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## Stephen swan (25 Sep 2022)

The Miniaturist said:


> The photos show you're getting new growth & it looks much better. 🙂
> Perhaps you could alter your water changes to every other day instead of daily, dosing the ferts a couple of times a week after changes. It would give you a well earned break from the daily maintenance & give the plants a chance of using the available nutrients.


yea will try that 😃


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## Stephen swan (30 Oct 2022)

Just a quick update on the 45p diatom has gone and it’s looking much better .


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## Myrtle (30 Oct 2022)

I've just read through all of this and kudos to you for not ripping it apart! Really pleased that all your frustration has been worth it in the end!


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