# fighting blue green algae



## baron von bubba (14 Apr 2009)

hi,
4+ wks into a new high tech set up.

about 2 wks in i noticed tiny amounts of BGA on plants and substrate at the front of the tank, i believe i've addressed the issues with co2, ferts and flow and have manually removed the tiny patches thinking i may erradicate it that way, it seems i'm fighting a losing battle tho! :0/

i've read that Erythromicin or a 3 day total blackout can used can be used to combat BGA?

what is the most effective way to combat BGA?


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## TLH (14 Apr 2009)

I suggested using Erythromycin on mine and you'll find the fellas here are dead against it prefering you do a blackout. If you've addressed the flow issue and nitrates it shouldn't come back.

With yours did you notice strands of stuff floating about in the water? This got worse in my tank after a water change. mine grew in hairy patches until it was quite old and only then did it start looking like proper BGA.

I'm doing a 4 day blackout on mine, possibly 5 days, with a full clean before and after to make absolutely sure it's dead.


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## Steve Smith (14 Apr 2009)

I'd echo what TLH is saying.  Thankfully I've not had to combat BGA too much.  Removal and a black out is a good place to start.  Absolute blackout though.  No peaking!


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## Dave Spencer (14 Apr 2009)

You could try covering the front of the substrate with tape, where it gets sunlight. I am convinced that it originates in the substrate where light hits it.

Alternatively, up the nitrates and try to get some flow pointed at where the BGA is. I find sand very susceptible to this stuff, but have only had a temporary, small amount with gravel and never seen it with Amazonia.

Dave.


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## baron von bubba (14 Apr 2009)

thanks guys.

blackout it is then! 
good timing actually, having a new kitchen fitted starting today, so tank woulda been partially covered a lot of the time anyhow.

i guess no CO2 during blackout?



			
				TLH said:
			
		

> With yours did you notice strands of stuff floating about in the water? This got worse in my tank after a water change. mine grew in hairy patches until it was quite old and only then did it start looking like proper BGA.


nope, its just been on a couple of grass leaves and a few of the substrate grains but keeps coming back after i try and remove the affected areas.


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## baron von bubba (14 Apr 2009)

Dave Spencer said:
			
		

> You could try covering the front of the substrate with tape, where it gets sunlight. I am convinced that it originates in the substrate where light hits it.



its about an inch back from the glass at the front rather than in between the substrate and glass.



			
				Dave Spencer said:
			
		

> Alternatively, up the nitrates and try to get some flow pointed at where the BGA is. I find sand very susceptible to this stuff, but have only had a temporary, small amount with gravel and never seen it with Amazonia.
> 
> Dave.



i was slack in first week, took a while to override the old programming!
now following EI and dosing as prescribed!

flow wise, i moved the spray bar from its original position of pointing across the tank, to the back so it directs towards the front glass. also along the back, pointing forward two koralia 2 powerheads were added (slight overkill maybe but i found the koralia 1 noisy and someone had nicked the koralia nanos from the boxes at my LFS!! :0/ )

i'm using eco complete topped with black gravel.


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## Themuleous (14 Apr 2009)

baron von bubba said:
			
		

> i guess no CO2 during blackout?



Def not!  you dont want it getting too high and affecting the fish 

Sam


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## ceg4048 (14 Apr 2009)

baron von bubba said:
			
		

> hi,
> 4+ wks into a new high tech set up.
> 
> about 2 wks in i noticed tiny amounts of BGA on plants and substrate at the front of the tank, i believe i've addressed the issues with co2, ferts and flow and have manually removed the tiny patches thinking i may erradicate it that way, it seems i'm fighting a losing battle tho! :0/
> ...


BGA is not CO2 related. It is related to NO3, flow and tank maintenance issues. Don't confuse the cause of BGA with the cause of BBA which is CO2 related.

You must fix your problem by dosing the proper levels of NO3 (flow and so forth) during and after the blackout to avoid a recurrence. Wait until dark hours before opening up the tank. Any infraction of this rule and any light that gets in can stimulate the BGA so that your blackout may be less effective.

Cheers,


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## Superman (14 Apr 2009)

BGA is a pain to get rid of, I did a four day black out and made sure that when I opened up the cover that there was no light what so ever getting into the tank.


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## Cyworld (19 Apr 2009)

I have also had BGA in my tank.
It's smells so terribly bad.
3 day blackout and there were all gone. After that, I have never seen it again in my tank.   
My tank was covered with cardboard BTW.
I hope its not a pain in the blahblahblahblah for you. Good luck!


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## nickmcmechan (19 Apr 2009)

i got rid of it by

(a) adding more NO3

(b) increasing flow - the eheim internals are excellent, if unsightly as you can very easily point the flow in many directions, i found that as soon as i killed it a t one bit it reappeared some where else

(c) 3 day blackout

(d) manual removal


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## Robo (3 Jun 2009)

It normaly shows up in my tank when I slack on the water changes for a few weeks. To clear it out I normal manualy remove it then over a few weeks I do a load of 60% water changes. It takes a while to get rid of it, just keep removing it with large water changes and it will clear.


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## jolt100 (25 Oct 2009)

Ive also been combating BGA, I have a 4x2x2 foot with Nile sand substrate with some clay in the bottom layer. 4x 39w T5`s and 2 external and 2 internal filters, 30% water change weekly with Pot Nitrate and phosphate added 2x weekly. The back 1/3 of the tank is covered in java fern and anubias on wood with Crypts in front. I have Heteranthera and rotala growing rampant on either side. I had glosso growing well at the front but BGA started in patches on the sand then spread onto the glosso. When I tried altering flow to clear the front it didnt help so I did a 3 day blackout as recommended on James`s algae guide. This cleared the BGA but also all the glosso died off as well  within 2 weeks the BGA had reurned, so I have been syphoning the sand 2-3x weekly but still keeps coming back. I have just tried increasing the nitrate and phosphate levels and playing with the flow and replanted glosso. 
Would it be better to add small amounts of nitrate daily or in 1 larger amount at the weekly water change? Any other suggestions? :idea: 

Thanks ,
John


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## ceg4048 (25 Oct 2009)

Hi,
   You haven't indicated how much you are dosing. It won't matter when you add KNO3 if you're not adding enough of it. Flow/distribution can also be an issue. It's not clear what amount of turnover rating you have or how it's being distributed.

Cheers,


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## jolt100 (25 Oct 2009)

I currently add 1/2 tsp KNO3 2x weekly, not sure of flow rate, filters are old Eheim professionel but not sure of rates with media. I have just tried taking off the spraybar on one outlet and the flow does seem higher. I have tried directing the outlet of an internal filter toward the BGA but it doesnt seem to shift it, having said all that if flow is likely to be the main culprit I could hack out a lot of biomass and will probably get better circulation. I admit I am not much of an artist, just want to see lots of plants with my fish, so let things grow wild. I will try double the nitrate, remove a load of anubias and java fern and see if that helps :?: 
cheers
 John


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## ceg4048 (26 Oct 2009)

I assume this is a 100 USG tank? If so then the baseline KNO3 dosing for that size is 1 teaspoon 3X per week if dosing per EI. See EI DOSING USING DRY SALTS for more details.

A 100USG tank also ideally should receive 1000GPH flow rating, especially if this is highly lit. If you know the filter model numbers it should be a doddle to find out their ratings.

A 3 day blackout should not kill Glosso. It's highly likely that the tank is suffering either marginal flow or poor CO2. I'd also recommend that you perform larger water changes if it's not too much trouble. BGA is also linked to organic waste buildup such as caused by dirty filters/tanks. If you're still using buckets to do your water changes this is problematic so perhaps look into using siphon tubes if that's the case.

Cheers,


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## jolt100 (27 Oct 2009)

Thanks for that, I was in the Green Machine last week and Graham suggested that the 3 day blackout could also kill off the Glosso. I take the point that the flow may be low, and this may also result in a lower circulation of CO2, currently been using 1-2 bps but after seeing some of the tanks at TGM I have increased due the heavy plant load. I dont see any detritus except whenI shake the Anubias and see some clouding so I am reducing the plant density and hope to get more circulation and less build up. I have shied away from doing larger water changes because I have one outlet halfway down the tank and its difficult to reprime the filter but I dont use buckets, I plug into the filter outlet to pump water out and just trickle cold tapwater in with the hose, my water is very soft and I havent had any problems in the past. I might try 30% twice a week if the other things dont work first.
I have already increased to 1 tsp KNO3 3x week,hope thats going to solve the problem, but I will get another circulation pump as well, just in case  

Thanks again
John


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## jolt100 (19 Nov 2009)

Thought I should give an update just to complete the thread.
After ceg4048`s advice I re-read some of the other threads on circulation and flow and decided to change my 2 old Eheim 2224`s for a new Eheim 2080 and a Koralia 3. My Nitrate and Phosphate levels are now pretty high at 70 & 4.0ppm and I removed some of the Anubias ans Java fern to allow better circulation. I also found thet there was quite a lot of build up of detritus in the bottom of the anubias so have been giving it a good shake before water changes. I did another 3 day blackout to get rid of the BGA thet was still present.
Result:  BGA has not returned after 2 weeks (previously it would be back after 3days)  
Thanks ceg4048,  
I am still just short of the 10x rule but intend to get an Eheim compact 3000 and take out the Koralia, 

Cheers
John


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## mfcphil (19 Nov 2009)

Well done for beating it   

I have BBA & BGA I have done 3 four day blackouts only to have it always come back....I have just bought a spray bar for the Fluval 305 this is been used to give better control of flow direction...hopefully I will enjoy your success story


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## ceg4048 (19 Nov 2009)

Yeah, the 2080 is a truly epic canister filter - except for when you have to clean it - good thing it has wheels, otherwise I'd be in the hospital with a hernia.   
If you're measuring those numbers with test kits I don't believe them, but in either case, don't reveal this data to the nutrient haters - they might be get sent to the hospital due to heart palpitations...

Cheers,


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## jolt100 (19 Nov 2009)

Yeah, its not too bad when its empty, but full!!! I hadnt realized how big it was.I dont think that was what my doctor had in mind when he said go and lift a few weights  
I retested using the same kits, which might be out of date (but that shouldnt put them more than a 20% out imho as they are sealed drytab packs)just before a water change and got 40 Nitrate 1.0 Phosphate so decided to reduce the ferts back to where I was. My water is very soft, less than 1 KH, and perhaps it would be better to increase KH rather than overdose Nitrate?

Thanks again

John


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## ceg4048 (20 Nov 2009)

I don't care what date those mangy kits have on them, they are absolutely worthless. You _know_ how much of each nutrient  you are putting into the tank therefore there is no need to measure it. Stop measuring. you've already committed the cardinal sin by adjusting your dosages based on silly and unreliable test kit readings. You keep doing that and you'll be right back in the same boat you were months ago. Put your trust in your teaspoons and in your eyeballs, not in test kits.

Cheers,


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## jolt100 (20 Nov 2009)

I see your point, I dont usually measure water parameters and just used the old kits to give me an idea of where the dosing had stabilised. I suppose I could calculate how much water I change and therefore what the concentration of Nitrate would be but I was trying to do it the "easy" way. You dont seem to have much faith in test kits, surely they cant be that bad? They must be able to tell you if the concentration is High or low even if you dont use the indicated reading?
Anyway, I will keep adding based on your recommendations, and try to do more water changes so there isnt any accumulation. I have just noticed the test kits are 10years old so have put them in the bin!  
Cheers
John


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## ceg4048 (20 Nov 2009)

Hey John,
               I'll tell you a little story; A long time ago I was suffering chronic BGA. In those days I was still plugged into The Matrix and I was thinking that the BGA was due to too much nitrate so I kept measuring with a NO3 test kit and I kept getting high readings. I would add RO water and test as often as 4X per day. The algae refused to go away and I couldn't understand the high NO3 readings when I knew I was adding RO water. I was so programmed to trust the test kit that actually I started to distrust my RO unit. I actually went out and plonked down hard earned cash to buy a new RO cartrige. Same test kit results, same BGA. When I was at rock bottom emotionally, and there was no other option I decided to test the test kit, so I measured water coming straight out of the unit and it measure high NO3. I immediately went out an spent more money on a new test kit and finally it measured low that day. The next day I used the new test kit and I got a high NO3 reading. Reviewing what I had done I realized that I had spent over a hundred Euros + hundreds of labor man-hours. There was still BGA, and I still had no idea what the actual NO3 level was either in the tank, my RO container or in my tap. So yes, in my opinion they are as bad. They are your worst nightmare.

The problem with NO3/PO4 test kits are that they only occasionally tell you the truth. The problem is that one never knows on what given day the test is truthful and when it lies. You also never know how much it lies, so it can lie a little or lie a lot, so you can't even tell whether you're in the ballpark or whether you're in the next county. That makes them useless as far as I'm concerned. On top of that, if you fear nutrients then you respond inappropriately to their readings, so you wind up drifting further and further away from reality.

If you follow the EI or PMDD dosing principles you already know exactly how much ppm you have added that day or that week. If your tap water contains some then that's fine, because having more than you need is better than having less than you need. You also don't really need to worry about toxicity unless you're keeping trout or salmon. These are the only groups of fish that have demonstrated high sensitivity to NO3.  Our fish have a very high tolerance, and I see no negative results after keeping generations of chichlids with high dosages of NO3/PO4. As I've pointed out many times, the NO3 is the smoking gun. By the time the organic NO3 levels build, the damage has already been done by NH4 and organic waste. When you do your water change, you are removing organic waste and are keeping those levels in check. It doesn't matter about you inorganically dosed NO3 powder. The fish don't care. Only your plants and BGA care.

As you've no doubt discovered, if your flow and distribution are spectacular, then it requires less of NO3/PO4/CO2 to keep the plants healthy. I'm not opposed to lowering the dosages at all. It's a great idea because it saves money and helps prevent unchecked growth, thus lowering maintenance. It's just that I know that most people have poor flow and poor distribution combined with too much light, which is the worst of all worlds. Instead on focusing on the real problems in the tank, they freak out about NO3, so they completely miss the boat. I've been there and I have the T-Shirt. I know this inherently. I understand exactly how they feel. You have to suspend your fear of NO3 and trust in what you see. Be consistent with your dosages and make a specific downward adjustment, say, 10% less. Then wait 3 weeks. If the BGA does not reappear then make another downward adjustment. At some point in your downward adjustment you will have violated the minimum threshold and you'll start to see signs of stress during that three week period. No problems, go back up to the previous higher dosing levels. Do your weekly 50% or more water changes, dose immediately afterwards and remove weak leaves and all loose organic debris. Organic waste is your enemy. Every morning I stick my hands in the tank, shake/fluff the plants to loosen weak leaves then I net any out. I'm very particular about this and it annoys me if I see even a single loose leaf floating about. Concentrate your energies on keeping the tank meticulously clean and forget about the illusion of NO3 toxicity. And throw those #Â£^%$ kits in the bin please.   

Cheers,


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## Hokum (9 Dec 2009)

I joined the forum recently as i'm just getting back into fish keeping after a gap of 15 years. 

On the war against CB/BGA i believe that very low conc of H2O2 is extreamly effective against it. Though of course fighting the cause of the CB build up is the way to win the war, but to give it a bloody nose it will certainly kill any in the tank and no adverse effect to fish or flora.


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## mfcphil (9 Dec 2009)

Thanks for another great read Clive, I find it very heartening that you have suffered like the rest of us, and I mean that in a nice way.

I am still struggling with the smelly Blue Green Algae....my next attempt is to remove the reflectors from my 2 x 35w hilite juwel bulbs.

I have increased the flow and increased the Phosphate, Nitrate and Fert dosages....hopefully less light is another step in the right direction.


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## viktorlantos (9 Dec 2009)

mfcphil said:
			
		

> Thanks for another great read Clive, I find it very heartening that you have suffered like the rest of us, and I mean that in a nice way.
> 
> I am still struggling with the smelly Blue Green Algae....my next attempt is to remove the reflectors from my 2 x 35w hilite juwel bulbs.
> 
> I have increased the flow and increased the Phosphate, Nitrate and Fert dosages....hopefully less light is another step in the right direction.



if it's not too expensive i recommend to try and use ADA Phyton Git. This thing fight very hard agains this algae in a friendly way. Meanwhile many other thing hurt plants this one fight like a silent samurai against them  and helps to your plant to prevent diseases. makes your sand clear etc.

usually this algae on the front of the glass. add in a korallia to speed up the flow and add this thing after te water change. after every 5 liter 1 drop. will do the job quickly.

if your substrate got colored inject Phyton git to the substrate when you do water change.

i added this item to my weekly to do list after water changes. worth the money


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## mfcphil (9 Dec 2009)

Thank you Viktor I am willing to try anything....I will look around the internet for this ADA Phyton Git


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## Superman (9 Dec 2009)

mfcphil said:
			
		

> Thank you Viktor I am willing to try anything....I will look around the internet for this ADA Phyton Git


I managed to get some off ebay as the usual UK stores like TGM didn't seem to stock it. I'm still waiting for it to be delivered as it can take 10-15 days from Hong Kong but it'll be worth the wait.


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## mfcphil (9 Dec 2009)

Is there a UK ADA site that might stock Phyton Git?

"ADDED" Its Ok I got some from ebay as you suggested


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## JamesM (9 Dec 2009)

Check The Green Machine site, one of the sponsors


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## dw1305 (10 Dec 2009)

*Re: fighting blue green algae - Test kits*

Hi all,
Clive is correct about the test kits, they aren't very accurate, and particularly for NO3 the levels will be changing all the time. Even an expensive meter with an ion selective electrode is of little practical use. 

cheers Darrel


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## jolt100 (11 Dec 2009)

Hi All, thanks to Clive for all the advice, now my flow is up to 10X the BGA hasnt returned, the tip about fluffing up the plants has shown me that its not just the flow rate thats important its *circulation* around all the plants, I have a dense wall of anubias and Java fern and when I followed Clives suggestion and shook them a cloud of detritus filled the tank, even though I regularly waterchange and the spray bar sprays over them all the time and the water looks crystal clear. 
Now i am shaking them daily and I have just kept dosing as suggested things are much better.  
I am working on pruning the anaubis and fern back so there will be better circulation but will probably do a complete re think over Christmas and actually plan the tank rather than let it all run riot  

Cheers
John


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## hazeljane (19 Dec 2009)

Whats up with dosing Erythromycin is it bad??? sorry but im new   if it bad or not how is dosed???
I thought this was medicne for humans????


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## dw1305 (21 Dec 2009)

Hi all,
Hazeljane, "erythromycin"  is an antibiotic which acts by inhibiting protein synthesis in gram-positive bacteria, including the cyanobacteria (that cause Blue-green algae). As a general point it isn't usually a good idea to use antibiotics to widely, and in many countries you can't buy them over the counter, but in this case nearly all pathogenic bacteria have already developed resistance to erythromycin already, so we can discount that as a worry. Another advantage is that it is also has very low toxicity to higher plants and fish.

The problem is much more that it is:
1. "broad spectrum", and kills of other gram-positive bacteria, and disrupts the ecology of the aquarium. 
2. The nitrifying bacteria in the nitrogen cycle are largely gram-negative, but still may be effected.
3. The die-off of the bacteria/BGA may produce an ammonia spike.
4. Erythromycin is a "cure" and it doesn't address the reason for developing the BGA in the first place (possibly the low 
    P: high N ratio).
5. If conditions remain the same BGA will soon re-appear (resting spores will be present in nearly all aquatic situations), 
    but it may take much longer for the aquarium to re-stabilise.

cheers Darrel


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