# Help needed for new dosing routine



## fablau (25 Apr 2015)

Hello everyone, I need advice for a new dosing routine that could better  fit my water change schedule which is currently based on a 50% water  change every 2 weeks. Unfortunately I can’t currently afford to change  water more often than that.

I have easily found out the amount of macros I need to dose every week  without accumulating them too much (just because I can easily test KNo3  as well as Po4), but I am having issues to calculate correctly the  amount of micros, that I’d like to be able to dose as a solution daily  for the sake of simplicity, and I want to be sure to avoid possible  deficiencies as well as possible accumulation of traces which could  potentially take me into the toxicity realm as I have read around (with  the every-two-weeks water change schedule, accumulation of nutrients is  something that could more easily happen than with the traditional weekly  water change routine).


Here is my current tank’s data:

75gl tank with wet/dry filter
Pressurized Co2 30-40ppm during photoperiod
Photoperiod of 7 hours a day.
Light intensity: 40-50 PAR at substrate
KNo3 weekly dosing: 3 x 1/4 tsp (about 4.24 grams)
Po4 weekly dosing: 1 x 1/8 tsp (about 0.50 grams)
Tank is heavily planted, see a picture of my tank at the link below to understand my plant density:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/euzxai1csv...06.22.jpg?dl=0


The schedule I’d like to have is the following, based on a 2-weeks schedule with water change on Saturday:

1st week Saturday: 50% WC + macros dosing
1st week Sunday: traces dosing
1st week Monday: traces dosing
1st week Tuesday: traces dosing
1st week Wednesday: traces dosing
1st week Thursday: traces dosing
1st week Friday: traces dosing

2nd week Saturday: macros dosing
2nd week Sunday: traces dosing
2nd week Monday: traces dosing
2nd week Tuesday: traces dosing
2nd week Wednesday: traces dosing
2nd week Thursday: traces dosing
2nd week Friday: traces dosing


I’d like to dose micros by using 1 liter solution that I can dose daily  from Sunday to Friday, and I found that a possible dosing regime would  be making a solution of 1 liter (1000 ml) with about 40 grams of Plantex  CSM + B which would give me a daily dosing of 10 ml. By using Wet’s  calculator (http://rota.la), looks like that that will give me about 0.1 ppm of Fe a day…  will that be enough? Or will that be potential of accumulation issues  in the future? I have used the very cool “Accumulation of fertilizers vs  time and plant uptake” from Wet’s calculator, trying to understand what  are my risks, but it is very difficult to have useful data without  knowing my tank’s plant intake… how would you know that? From the  picture of my tank and my tank’s data above, how much intake would you  think my plants would have every week? Do you think such a kind of trace  regime would be sufficient, not enough, or too much?

I am open to your advice, thoughts and suggestions… thanks to all in advance!

Best,
Fab.


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## Julian (25 Apr 2015)

You're making this more complicated than it has to be. Don't get caught up in the numbers, your test kits aren't as accurate as you think. Just dose regular EI and change your water every 2 weeks.

Adding all the macros on 1 day is a bad idea, and why are you dosing traces 6 times a week?

Watch your plants for signs of deformities and deficiencies and go from there.


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## ian_m (25 Apr 2015)

Kiss. Keep it simple stupid....

Dose as per EI, you will never get near problem amounts of phosphate or nitrate. Do not rely on test kits they will be wrong....

Also halve your light possibly by blocking half or on for half the time or just ignore and do a super duper clean every fortnight. KISS.


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## fablau (25 Apr 2015)

Julian said:


> You're making this more complicated than it has to be. Don't get caught up in the numbers, your test kits aren't as accurate as you think. Just dose regular EI and change your water every 2 weeks.
> 
> Adding all the macros on 1 day is a bad idea, and why are you dosing traces 6 times a week?
> 
> Watch your plants for signs of deformities and deficiencies and go from there.



If I dose regular EI with water change every 2 weeks, nutrients accumulate badly after a few months, I have tried that and reached over 100ppm NO3 or over 15ppm P after 3-4 months! Even if my plants grow well, why should I waste and pollute water so much? Keep it simple is also from the nature stand point... Give plants what they really need. Just my thought.

To dose macros just once a week and micros every day would be really to make it simpler for me. It  is a practice adopted by many aquarist with success, and for me would be less confusing than alternating days and will help my plants that may suffer micro deficiencies easily due to my water very high Ph.


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## fablau (25 Apr 2015)

ian_m said:


> Kiss. Keep it simple stupid....
> 
> Dose as per EI, you will never get near problem amounts of phosphate or nitrate. Do not rely on test kits they will be wrong....
> 
> Also halve your light possibly by blocking half or on for half the time or just ignore and do a super duper clean every fortnight. KISS.



As I wrote in my previous post. Reached very high levels of No3 and P after a few months, and used reference solutions, not colored strips.

Why should I takle my light??


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## EnderUK (25 Apr 2015)

You could try the PPS-PRO method or you could simple do the trial and error method suggested by Tom here and here. What could go wrong? Algae.


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## fablau (25 Apr 2015)

EnderUK said:


> You could try the PPS-PRO method or you could simple do the trial and error method suggested by Tom here and here. What could go wrong? Algae.



Yes, that's actually what I have done so far (basically I want to keep EI, but with half water changes), but I find myself at the point where I don't know what way take because some of my plants are not giving me clear feedback from which I can take action with confidence... Let me explain, I really don't want to make all this too complicated, but what I am trying to find out is if by dosing 10ml of the above solution daily every week, with a water change every 2 weeks, I have any risks to reach toxicity levels. I am sure you are asking yourself: why is this guy worried about all this if his plants are growing well? Well, it's because some of them are not growing well right now. Some plants like Alternanthera Reinikii and Rotala Rotoundifolia are a little stunted at the tips, which makes me think they have some sort of micros deficiency... Or are those signs of a possible toxicity? I am quite confused, and your help to understand on what side I am actually in (deficiency or toxicity?) is very welcome! I hope I gave you enough data to help me in this quest. I will try to post some pictures later today which will help a great deal.


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## EnderUK (25 Apr 2015)

increase the dosage and see if they respond. You'll be very unlucky if you have toxicity. Have a look for deficiency here.


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## fablau (26 Apr 2015)

Yes, I am with you EnderUK, I will do that and let you know. In the meantime, here are some pictures of my tank:






Here is my Rotala's stunted tips, I hope you can see them:










And here is my Althernanthera:









As I said, all other plants are growing well despite I have a little of BBA on slow growers old leaves... I'll wait for your additional thoughts! Thanks!


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## mlongpre (26 Apr 2015)

Looking forward to seeing how you sort this out fablau. My rotund and AR seem to do the same thing. Can't figure it out either.


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## fablau (26 Apr 2015)

Have you tried to increase traces? Another guy had this same issue and by increasing traces worked for him (as it worked for me before!) Starting tomorrow I will try to double traces and see what's gonna happen. I will keep you posted guys. Thanks!


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## ian_m (26 Apr 2015)

The EI weekly/frequent water change serves numerous purposes...

1. Most important, in fact more important that the others is it removes the organic plant waste, produced by the plants growing in such enhanced conditions ie high light and high fertiliser and high CO2. If you don't remove this weekly (or regularly) you will very quickly see algae moving in as this waste is algae food....first on glass & hardscape then on plants as they start to suffer. Fish will not be happy as well if it gets too high.

2. Remove excess ferts. Well not so important as above, I had 300ppm NO3 & 80ppm PO4 for a while after my pump emptied a litre bottle or EI solution into my tank. Only realised after a couple of days when I went to see how much was in the bottle and it was empty and pump running 24/7...my fault, time clock issue. Were fish bothered...no fish were fine, no change at all in behaviour. No algae outbreak either, despite "everyone knows high phosphate and/or nitrate causes algae", algae isn't in fact caused by this, as this proves.

3. Resets the ferts levels to a known amount (without having to use a test kit). Removing 50% of water resets the ferts level to a known maximum, thus when more are adding more ferts you will know approximately what ferts levels you have, again no test kit involved. Notice no need to trust/use/rely on a test kit, as hobby ones won't give reliable sensible readings.

Also you mustn't dose macro and micro together as they will react and the Fe from micro will precipitate out as insoluble (and unavailable to plants) iron phosphate.

Also you must really dose daily, as if you "dump" it all in at beginning of the week the plants will "scoff it all" and suffer lack of ferts by the end of the week. Also the jump to high nitrates and high phosphates when added may stress the fish, who will not be happy.

Also generally "physical" damage to the plants (other than caused by over active fish) is a sign of CO2 deficiency, rather than lack of ferts.

P.S. Nice tank...


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## fablau (27 Apr 2015)

ian_m said:


> Remove excess ferts. Well not so important as above, I had 300ppm NO3 & 80ppm PO4 for a while after my pump emptied a litre bottle or EI solution into my tank. Only realised after a couple of days when I went to see how much was in the bottle and it was empty and pump running 24/7...my fault, time clock issue. Were fish bothered...no fish were fine, no change at all in behaviour. No algae outbreak either, despite "everyone knows high phosphate and/or nitrate causes algae", algae isn't in fact caused by this, as this proves.



Wow, that's really a huge dump of ferts! Nice to know nothing bad happened!




ian_m said:


> Also you must really dose daily, as if you "dump" it all in at beginning of the week the plants will "scoff it all" and suffer lack of ferts by the end of the week. Also the jump to high nitrates and high phosphates when added may stress the fish, who will not be happy.



This may be a valid point. I have decided to dose macros just once a week because I have seen they get sustained through the whole week enough to not going under the needed minimum, whereas I decided to dose micros daily because those could be easily oxidized, precipitate or being neutralized after a while... Am I wrong in this assumption?


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## fablau (27 Apr 2015)

ian_m said:


> P.S. Nice tank...



Thanks!


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## ian_m (27 Apr 2015)

fablau said:


> Am I wrong in this assumption?


Yes. As I said the micros will react with phosphate from your "weekly ferts dump"  and precipitate out as insoluble iron phosphate and become unavailable to plants. This is why you can't weekly dump macros as it will negate any micro added later, as post 37 suggests this may be causing your issues, lack of iron. You need to dose alternate daily macro & micro, keeping them apart for as long as possible.

However you an make an all in one and dose daily. The trick here is it acidic and keeps the iron chelated (low pH) and thus unavailable to react with the phosphate.
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/allinone.htm



fablau said:


> Wow, that's really a huge dump of ferts! Nice to know nothing bad happened!


Hmmm just writing a post about timer failure due to Mr Johnny Fumblefingers and Mr RTFM and liquid carbon over dose....


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## fablau (28 Apr 2015)

ian_m said:


> Yes. As I said the micros will react with phosphate from your "weekly ferts dump"  and precipitate out as insoluble iron phosphate and become unavailable to plants. This is why you can't weekly dump macros as it will negate any micro added later, as post 37 suggests this may be causing your issues, lack of iron. You need to dose alternate daily macro & micro, keeping them apart for as long as possible..



Well, I am not sure to agree with what you are saying... The amount of macros I dose every week corresponds to what I used to dose every 3 days before, and with this schedule macros and micros are actually much more apart than dosing macros more often... Doesn't make sense otherwise. Also, I have read that Po4 can react with Iron only if you dump them together... After a few hours apart, the problem should be avoided.

Thoughts?


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## ian_m (28 Apr 2015)

fablau said:


> Also, I have read that Po4 can react with Iron only if you dump them together... After a few hours apart, the problem should be avoided.


Not so, which is why you dose alternate days. In the tank the micro iron will become unchelated and react with the phosphate left over from the weekly "macro dump" and become non available to the plants. When I first built my dosing pumps they dosed both macro and micro at the same time (on same timer and simple wiring), not listening to what people were saying "dose alternate days...". Anyway plants started possibly having issues, maybe lack of iron hardly surprisingly, so rebuilt the pumps to alternate day dose and not had any issues since.


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## EnderUK (28 Apr 2015)

I get away with dosing at the same time due to my water being below pH 6 before co2 even turns on. So it can be complex depending on your water. Better safe then sorry and dose like Ian suggests and see if you have an improvement.


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## fablau (29 Apr 2015)

ian_m said:


> Not so, which is why you dose alternate days. In the tank the micro iron will become unchelated and react with the phosphate left over from the weekly "macro dump" and become non available to the plants. When I first built my dosing pumps they dosed both macro and micro at the same time (on same timer and simple wiring), not listening to what people were saying "dose alternate days...". Anyway plants started possibly having issues, maybe lack of iron hardly surprisingly, so rebuilt the pumps to alternate day dose and not had any issues since.



I am sorry, but I still don't understand what's the difference of what I am doing now, I am not dosing macros and micros at the same time. I dose macros on WC day (and it is the EI low-light dose given my the calculator at http://rota.la), and micros on the day after. What's the problem with that?? We do the exact same thing!


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## EnderUK (29 Apr 2015)

fablau said:


> I am sorry, but I still don't understand what's the difference of what I am doing now,


 Voodoo you're basically doing a very large increase of PPM of PO4 at the beginning of the week so greater PPM of PO4 the greater reaction between your micros or so the theory goes. The fact you are having problems with your tank is telling you something is wrong. Could be CO2, could be flow, could be light could be ferts (since you're not following the gospel written by Barr). To eliminate nutrients out of the equation it's always the recommendation to fall back to "correct" method with 60-50% water changes. Are you saying it's expensive filling the tank with RO water? Why don't you just use tap water?

Might as well dry dose for a tank that size 75g is roughly 3x20g in teaspoons (I've rounded as I can't be bothered with 3/16ths
day 1 WC + 1/2 KNO3 + 1/4 KH2PO4 + 1.1/2 MgSO4
day 2 1/4 Trace
day 3 WC + 1/2 KNO3 + 1/4 KH2PO4 + 1.1/2 MgSO4
day 4 1/4 Trace
day 5 WC + 1/2 KNO3 + 1/4 KH2PO4 + 1.1/2 MgSO4
day 6 Rest
day 7 Rest


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## Jose (29 Apr 2015)

Oh boy. This is a classic case of EI fear.

1) You shouldnt be worrying about toxicity at all unless you have very delicate shrimp. In this case you you should be more worried about co2 than ferts. In an EI dosed tank your ferts levels wont climb over your weekly dosex2. Simple maths here. Do an example on a paper with a simple number, say 2. If youre doing a wc once every two weeks then your levels will be 2x that total ammount max. This is true if youre doing a 50% wc.

2) If you want to do 1 wc every two weeks then you can do many things. In the end you dont want plants to suffer from low nutrients. And as Ian mentioned you dont want organics from plants+fish+whatever to accumulate causing algae. So do whatever combination you want to get to this. Main thing you can do is lower your light->which lowers plants metabolism->which makes them uptake less nutrients->which makes them polute the water less.

Simply put. You want less hassle, then have low light. You might get away which your light atm and less wcs.


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## fablau (30 Apr 2015)

EnderUK said:


> Voodoo you're basically doing a very large increase of PPM of PO4 at the beginning of the week so greater PPM of PO4 the greater reaction between your micros or so the theory goes. The fact you are having problems with your tank is telling you something is wrong. Could be CO2, could be flow, could be light could be ferts (since you're not following the gospel written by Barr). To eliminate nutrients out of the equation it's always the recommendation to fall back to "correct" method with 60-50% water changes. Are you saying it's expensive filling the tank with RO water? Why don't you just use tap water?
> 
> Might as well dry dose for a tank that size 75g is roughly 3x20g in teaspoons (I've rounded as I can't be bothered with 3/16ths
> day 1 WC + 1/2 KNO3 + 1/4 KH2PO4 + 1.1/2 MgSO4
> ...




Thank you, but I am using tap water and I am trying to find a fert routine that allows me to perform WC every 2 weeks. Once a week is something I can't handle right now (lack of time!)

The amount of Po4 that I "dump" once a week is exactly what you are suggesting to dump every other day: 1/4 tsp. So, as you can see, I am dosing less then you are suggesting, therefore why should I have more problems than the routine you are suggesting?


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## ian_m (30 Apr 2015)

1. If you wish to only change water once a fortnight, fine, just run lights at 1/2 power buy say putting foil rings around the lights covering half up an run for say starting at only 4 hours. This will slow the tank down therefore generating less plant waste and organics and hopefully along with lower light intensity and lighting period will not cause issues (algae is main one).

2. You cannot just do a weekly ferts dump, as explained it doesn't work like that, you will only have problems, usually plant issues and resulting algae. If you just dump a weekly dump of ferts apart from the sudden change in water conditions for fish (and plants) the plants may scoff the lot (as well as PO4 reacting with your micro and other chemicals) and you will suffer plant deficiencies at the end of the week. It has been proven many times, and this is where the EI dosing scheme comes from you must dose for a constant daily level every day (or alternate).

3. All people who "invent their own dosing scheme" (it is NOT EI as EI is daily alternate macro/micro dosing) always end up with plant and algae issues. EI was derived to make it easy, no test kits required, never insufficient ferts but does require constant daily ferts levels and frequent water changes.

4. Try it...


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## Jose (30 Apr 2015)

http://www.barrreport.com/forum/bar...i-can-get-you-there-with-a-small-modification

Read very thoroughly and carefully.


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## EnderUK (30 Apr 2015)

Good advice Ian, you know I don't completely agree to your third statement but if someone is having problems then it's best to fall back to a schedule that works.

Jose I linked that on my first post


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## Jose (30 Apr 2015)

EnderUK said:


> Jose I linked that on my first post


Got me there!. Well that makes it a must read then.


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## fablau (1 May 2015)

ian_m said:


> 1. If you wish to only change water once a fortnight, fine, just run lights at 1/2 power buy say putting foil rings around the lights covering half up an run for say starting at only 4 hours. This will slow the tank down therefore generating less plant waste and organics and hopefully along with lower light intensity and lighting period will not cause issues (algae is main one).
> 
> 2. You cannot just do a weekly ferts dump, as explained it doesn't work like that, you will only have problems, usually plant issues and resulting algae. If you just dump a weekly dump of ferts apart from the sudden change in water conditions for fish (and plants) the plants may scoff the lot (as well as PO4 reacting with your micro and other chemicals) and you will suffer plant deficiencies at the end of the week. It has been proven many times, and this is where the EI dosing scheme comes from you must dose for a constant daily level every day (or alternate).
> 
> ...



I have dosed alternating macros and micros for the past year, and the journey hasn't been without problems. Some plants stopped growing completely (ie. Java moss) or slowed down growth more than before (Marsilea Minuta), but in the overall it has worked well for all other plants as you can see from my previously posted pictures above. So, I am not new to EI and I have read a lot about it, pretty much everywhere (find all my posts on the Barr report...)

But I am beginning to think I am a little dumb here because I keep not understanding what may be the problem of dosing this way if the contents of P and N is available to plants anyway during the whole week... Unless you are suggesting that "every time" I dose micros, P gets "neutralized" in some way.... But if so, why I can still measure it, pretty high, at the end of the week? Don't get me wrong folks, I can get back to "regular" EI dosing, alternating macros and micros, that wouldn't be a problem, I am kinda experimenting here, and and this point  I have to understand where is exactly the problem if at the end of the week I have dosed the same exact amount, no matter if I put 1/3 of the dose every other day, or a whole of a dose at the beginning of the week only (please note: my "whole" dose is just 1/3 of EI Classic dose for my tank size, but that is sufficient for the entire week due to my WC schedule and plants requirements.)

Please, help me to understand because I am not understanding.


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## fablau (1 May 2015)

Jose said:


> http://www.barrreport.com/forum/bar...i-can-get-you-there-with-a-small-modification
> 
> Read very thoroughly and carefully.



Thank you Jose, I know that post very well, read probably a hundred times, and I have already tried it... As I said before, I am just experimenting with this new schedule (why? Because some issues never went away, don't even with regular EI dosing and weekly WC!), but please, let me understand why alternating macros with micros would be better than dosing macros just once, and micros all other days... I'll be waiting your new answers because so far I haven't seen a logical explanation (am I really dumb?). Thanks!


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## fablau (1 May 2015)

Sorry, wrong post here.... How do I delete it?


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## EnderUK (1 May 2015)

Here you go....

The Phosphate precipitates, reacts, with the Iron is dosing into Iron phosphate removing the availability from both elements from the water column which then the plants cannot use. Test kits are inaccurate and probably will continue to measure the insoluble precipitates or may just be giving you a dud reading. You're plants are a better indicator that you're missing something.


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## Jose (1 May 2015)

fablau said:


> Thank you Jose, I know that post very well, read probably a hundred times, and I have already tried it... As I said before, I am just experimenting with this new schedule (why? Because some issues never went away, don't even with regular EI dosing and weekly WC!), but please, let me understand why alternating macros with micros would be better than dosing macros just once, and micros all other days... I'll be waiting your new answers because so far I haven't seen a logical explanation (am I really dumb?). Thanks!



Yes phosphates and micros react and precipitate and also iron loses the bond with its chelator so it becomes mostly useless to plants. Chances are if you have low light and low metabolism in general then plants wont suffer cause there is still enough. Not the case if your tank is a lamborghini style tank.


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## ian_m (1 May 2015)

fablau said:


> But if so, why I can still measure it, pretty high, at the end of the week?


You cannot measure it at the end of the week, any reading using a hobby test kit will give you a false reading leading you down the path to disaster. Chances are your phosphate kit is reading something else and phosphate levels at the end of the week may in fact be zero.

The only way to get known reliable phosphate (and nitrate and Mg) is to dose measured known amounts regularly, which is why EI was derived, so you are not relying on false test kit readings to set your fertiliser levels.

If you really insist you want to measure phosphate levels you will need a proper "big boy" test kit and yes they cost £100's..
http://www.lamotte.com/en/aquarium-fish-farming/individual-test-kits/3121-02.html
http://www.hach.com/phosphate-test-kit-total-ortho-meta-model-po-24/product?id=7640214961 

However these can also be fooled, it is rumoured by some dechlorinator's, giving a false positive reading.


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## Rahms (1 May 2015)

fablau said:


> I have to understand where is exactly the problem if at the end of the week I have dosed the same exact amount, no matter if I put 1/3 of the dose every other day, or a whole of a dose at the beginning of the week only
> 
> Please, help me to understand because I am not understanding.



If you don't see the point in dosing macros throughout the week, why do you dose micros 6 times throughout the week? People above seem to have answered (I didn't know), but if I was thinking "this seems like wasted effort" I probably wouldn't make up my own method that is the same amount of effort and follow that instead...


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## fablau (2 May 2015)

Ok folks, I got your point, and I will probably get back to alternating macros with micros by starting the next week, but as I said earlier, I have been doing that for months and the problems were there anyway. I changed to this schedule in desperation, and by reading around that some people were dosing macros just once a week and micros every day with success, I wanted to try. But no difference with before, therefore I will get back to regular alternating dosing, just to be sure.

To respond to Rahms' last question: I read that micros get oxidized more easily than macros (or really, they are the only ones getting oxidized), hence the daily micros routine.

I appreciated your help and efforts, and I will keep you posted with my tank situation in the coming weeks, but in the meantime, I can tell you that by doubling daily micros dosing in the past week improved my plants overall health. So, I will keep the same amount of micros in the coming weeks, by alternating them with macros.


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## ian_m (2 May 2015)

fablau said:


> I can tell you that by doubling daily micros dosing in the past week improved my plants overall health


There you go you have just proved that "something is taking out your micro in the tank, as we have been saying most likely the phosphate from the weekly "dump". EI micro dose is normally many (maybe even x10) higher than actually required by the plants, thus something was clearly wrong with your method of fertilising.


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## fablau (2 May 2015)

ian_m said:


> There you go you have just proved that "something is taking out your micro in the tank, as we have been saying most likely the phosphate from the weekly "dump". EI micro dose is normally many (maybe even x10) higher than actually required by the plants, thus something was clearly wrong with your method of fertilising.




Ian, please, explain me the difference between the following 2 routines and how it is possible that with the second routine that I was trying until now, can happen what you are describing:

Routine 1 (alternating dosing EI recommended dose for a 75gl tank):

Saturday: 3/4 tsp No3, 1/4 tsp PO4, 1/4 tsp K
Sunday: 1/4 tsp CSM+B
...and so on until WC 


Routine 2:

Saturday: 3/4 tsp No3, 1/4 tsp PO4, 1/4 tsp K
Sunday: 1/16 tsp CSM+B
Monday: 1/16 tsp CSM+B
Tuesday: : 1/16 tsp CSM+B
Wednesday: : 1/16 tsp CSM+B
Thursday: : 1/16 tsp CSM+B
Friday: rest
...and so on every week.

If you tell me that by following routine 2 I could bring macros such as P down because of their daily reaction with daily added Fe, I can understand that (because I am dosing macros just once a week); but if you tell me the exact opposite, which means that the second routine could reduce "micros" more than the first routine "because of the amount of P dumped at the beginning of the week"... Well, that really doesn't add up since with routine 2 I dose once a week the exact same amount I dose every other day with routine 1. Furthermore, with routine 2 I dose micros every day, and at the end of the week, I have dosed more micros than routine 1, therefore, how in the heck routine 2 could bring micros down "because of the P dumped at the beginning of the week"??

This was the whole point of my conversation and why I couldn't understand your statements above related to this concept. I hope what I wrote above makes sense. I will be waiting for your thoughts. Thank you.


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## ian_m (2 May 2015)

Because in routine 2 each dose is reacting with the PO4 thus being unavailable to the plants all week. In routine 1 the first day or two reacts with the PO4 until PO4 all gone, but leaving micro the rest of the week unaffected to feed the plants.

Dosing daily allows the PO4 or micro to be used by the plants before it might get precipitated out if any is left the next day.


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## fablau (3 May 2015)

I am so sorry, but I still have an hard time to understand the logic beyond your words, make no sense to me... Take routine 1, if I alternate Po4 with Micros, how can you say that only the 1st day or two reacts with Po4 until Po4 is gone if I dose it any other day? Doesn't make sense... Sorry!


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## Sk3lly (3 May 2015)

fablau said:


> I am so sorry, but I still have an hard time to understand the logic beyond your words, make no sense to me... Take routine 1, if I alternate Po4 with Micros, how can you say that only the 1st day or two reacts with Po4 until Po4 is gone if I dose it any other day? Doesn't make sense... Sorry!


It's not difficult!

I think Ian is trying to explain this.....

With your large macro dump in one day, there is lots and lots of the solution left in the water. The plants cannot use anywhere near enough of it. So when your first micro dosing is added, it reacts with the large leftover macro mix.

If you dose EI PROPERLY then there is not quite as much macro solution in the water at any given time. Therefore reducing the precipitating affect with the micros.

This dosing schedule is idiot proof


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## ian_m (3 May 2015)

Using numbers...

Assume 1 EI daily dose of PO4 and either 1 EI micro dose alternate days or 0.5 EI micro dose for your daily dosing scheme.

Thus dosing EI daily.

Sunday 1 unit PO4, plants scoff 0.5.
Monday 0.5 PO4 left, 1 unit micro added, but 0.5 reacts with PO4, still leaving 0.5 micro for plants to scoff.
Tuesday 1 unit PO4 added, plants scoff 0.5.
Wednesday 0.5 PO4 left, 1 unit micro added, but 0.5 reacts with PO4, still leaving 0.5 micro for plants to scoff.
etc etc

As you see generally, there will be levels of PO4 and micro for the plants to consume all week.

However using your weekly dump scheme.
Sunday add 3 units PO4. Plants scoff 0.5 leaving 3.5.
Monday 3.5 PO4 left add 0.5 unit micros, which reacts with PO4, leaving 3 units PO4 and plants scoff 0.5 leaving 2.5 units PO4. Hmm no micros today then.
Tuesday 2.5 units PO4 left add 0.5 unit micros, which reacts with PO4, leaving 2 units PO4  and plants scoff 0.5 leaving 1.5 units PO4. Hmm no micros again today then.
Wednesday 1.5 units PO4 left add 0.5 unit micros, which reacts with PO4, leaving 1 units PO4 and plants scoff 0.5 leaving 0.5 units PO4. Hmm no micros yet again today then.
Thursday 0.5 units PO4 left add 0.5 unit micros, which reacts with PO4, leaving 0 units PO4 and plants start to suffer no PO4 and no micros yet again today then.
Friday 0 units PO4 left add 0.5 unit micros...at last some micros for first time in 5 days but no PO4.

Thus as you see with a PO4 dump you end up with no micros at the beginning of the week, all being wasted reacting with PO4, and no PO4 at the end of the week all leading to plant starvation issues.


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## fablau (3 May 2015)

Ok, I understand your example Ian, but scenario no. 1 doesn't correspond to my routine no. 1! Because with routine No. 1 (alternating macros with micros), I triple the amount of macros I dump in routine no. 2!

Here is routine No. 1 according to my real dosing and to your statements above:

Sunday 3 unit PO4, plants scoff 0.5.
Monday 3.5 PO4 left add 0.5 unit micros, which reacts with PO4, leaving 3 units PO4 and plants scoff 0.5 leaving 2.5 units PO4. Hmm no micros today then.
Tuesday 3 unit PO4 added, plants scoff 0.5.
Wednesday 3.5 PO4 left add 0.5 unit micros, which reacts with PO4, leaving 3 units PO4 and plants scoff 0.5 leaving 2.5 units PO4. Hmm no micros today then.
etc...

That's why I thought to add the "3 unit" macros just once a week, and micros every day: to have micros available more easily!! Look at my example routines at post #36 above: the routine No. 1 doses 3 units of macros every other day, not 1 unit!

I'll be waiting for your thoughts... thanks


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## Sk3lly (3 May 2015)

fablau said:


> Ok, I understand your example Ian, but scenario no. 1 doesn't correspond to my routine no. 1! Because with routine No. 1 (alternating macros with micros), I triple the amount of macros I dump in routine no. 2!
> 
> Here is routine No. 1 according to my real dosing and to your statements above:
> 
> ...


Im with Ian on this one...... Why invent your own method when there is a tried and tested method for you to use? 

Two options...

One continue as you are and have your plants suffer

Or change to ACTUAL EI and your plants might be a lot better


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ian_m (3 May 2015)

Sorry it was not clear from your post you were alternating macro & micro for routine 1.

However dosing 3 units of macro alternate daily is a waste of macro, the plants can't make use of it (0.5 units in my case) and left over will be reacted away with the micro the next day as well. This means no micro at all, as all reacted with PO4 and just wasting excess PO4 that plants can't use anyway.

So both of your schemes are no good, routine 1 never has and micro as it always reacts with PO4 and routine 2 has PO4 and no micro at beginning of week and micro only at end of the week. All bad for plants good for algae.

You need to dose one EI unit of macro & micro alternately so the plants have a "steady" amount of PO4 and micro during the week.

Of course the macro micro reaction is not 100% so there will be never zero PO4 or zero micro, but if you are trying to get healthy plants and not waste your fertilisers then EI is way forward.


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## Rahms (3 May 2015)

fablau said:


> I'll be waiting for your thoughts... thanks



feel like I'm repeating myself.... You're still dosing every day with this alternate method, where is the benefit?

Instead of trying to understand it, and make a change, which essentially means you're relying on your own (clearly basic) understanding of the chemistry, why not just follow the tried and tested method which is idiot-proof?

I have no idea how quickly the PO4 reacts with the micro, or if it remains as reactive after days in the tank, and that's presumably key when you're talking about plants using nutrients before the reaction takes place.


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## Jose (3 May 2015)

I dont think the reaction with phosphates is key here, but more the bond of the micro nutrient to its chelator. Basically after some Hours the micros goes out of solution because the chelator bond Breaks down due to light, ph etc. I say this because the phosphate concentration in an ei tank does not vary that much And is not determining the amount of micro Available to the plants,even though the precipitation does occur. Again look at it as if the micros have a life of less than 48 hours So you need to replenish it.


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## fablau (4 May 2015)

ian_m said:


> Sorry it was not clear from your post you were alternating macro & micro for routine 1.
> 
> However dosing 3 units of macro alternate daily is a waste of macro, the plants can't make use of it (0.5 units in my case) and left over will be reacted away with the micro the next day as well. This means no micro at all, as all reacted with PO4 and just wasting excess PO4 that plants can't use anyway.
> 
> ...



No worries, I got your concept anyway. Starting this week I will alternate as I did before, but this time I will give twice the amount of micros, because I was too lean before. I will keep you posted on that.

It is interesting though how I have never read anywhere about this possible interaction issue between PO4 and micros after several days of dosing from each other, I only read about possible issues by dosing them a few hours apart... Don't even Tom Barr has ever mentioned this issue. I will make some more research of my onw. Thanks!


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## fablau (4 May 2015)

Jose said:


> I dont think the reaction with phosphates is key here, but more the bond of the micro nutrient to its chelator. Basically after some Hours the micros goes out of solution because the chelator bond Breaks down due to light, ph etc. I say this because the phosphate concentration in an ei tank does not vary that much And is not determining the amount of micro Available to the plants,even though the precipitation does occur. Again look at it as if the micros have a life of less than 48 hours So you need to replenish it.



Yes, That's exactly what I know Jose, and that's why I wanted to try to dose micros every day: to lower at minimum the loss of chelator. I always read around about how easily micros can precipitate, etc... But never read about similar issues for macros... My experimental routine was just an experiment,  but I can assure you, I thought a lot about it. After 30 years playing with planted tanks I cannot be considered such a beginner to "invent" my own fertilization routine from nothing!

Thanks again to everyone for the constructive feedback received.


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## Jose (4 May 2015)

Tom Barr recomends macro dosing at least twice a week. This just prevents any precipitation issues weather it is with micros or with calcium in hard waters. Once a week I think is not enough to make sure it will stay in the water through the week.


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## fablau (4 May 2015)

Jose said:


> Tom Barr recomends macro dosing at least twice a week. This just prevents any precipitation issues weather it is with micros or with calcium in hard waters. Once a week I think is not enough to make sure it will stay in the water through the week.



Fair enough. I haven't read that, but makes sense. Thank you!


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## Jose (4 May 2015)

Sorry, just to clarify, the bit about preventing precipitation I havent read from Tom Barr but is my conclusion from what others say around here specially Darrel. There seems to be some precipitation of phosphates in hard water due to the Ca present. This is why if you have hard water youll probably need more P. Tom Barr doesnt give detailed explanations many times, I guess he doesnt want to get deep into the science and just goes straight into the practical bit. I believe he has just tested out what works best and EI is the result.


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## fablau (5 May 2015)

I see... I've never heard about P/Ca either... I do have hard water, so... I will get back to regular EI and let you know guys. Thanks!


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## ian_m (5 May 2015)

Jose said:


> There seems to be some precipitation of phosphates in hard water due to the Ca present


Not sure it is due to precipitation per se being the issue, but very high levels of Ca can prevent plants taking up PO4.


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## naughtymoose (5 May 2015)

I know some people do very high doses of EI. Won't that mean that Calcium levels would be high, preventing uptake of Phosphates? Or is it a sliding scale thing, with improper balance between the two being the problem? I'm way out of my depth here with the chemistry, so it is just my off-the-wall observation, and would love to understand!


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## Jose (5 May 2015)

naughtymoose said:


> I know some people do very high doses of EI. Won't that mean that Calcium levels would be high, preventing uptake of Phosphates? Or is it a sliding scale thing, with improper balance between the two being the problem? I'm way out of my depth here with the chemistry, so it is just my off-the-wall observation, and would love to understand!



I dont think the balance/ratio between the two(Ca/PO4) is important. Just that theres enough or more than enough P for plants. So if water is really hard you might want to try 2xEI P dose.
I think more important problems arise in hard water related to co2. With regards to P and micros you can just dose some more.


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## ajm83 (5 May 2015)

ian_m said:


> However you an make an all in one and dose daily. The trick here is it acidic and keeps the iron chelated (low pH) and thus unavailable to react with the phosphate.
> http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/allinone.htm



So does that mean that it is pointless using an all-in-one product such as TNC Complete if the pH of the tank is 7.5 or so?


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## ian_m (5 May 2015)

ajm83 said:


> So does that mean that it is pointless using an all-in-one product such as TNC Complete if the pH of the tank is 7.5 or so?


No, most common (cheaper) chelated elements used EDTA, which at pH of 7.5 is approx 50% chelated (see graph below), hopefully the remaining 50% being available to plants (and not reacting with macros). EDTA is also broken down by light, which is why micros must be stored in the dark, but super handy as when lights are on and plants need food, EDTA releases the micros...


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## fablau (5 May 2015)

Does the same apply to other micros besides Fe?


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## ian_m (5 May 2015)

fablau said:


> Does the same apply to other micros besides Fe?


Yes other micros, they "unchelate" upon pH change and/or light but unlike iron do not generally react with macros, thus stay available to plants.


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## fablau (6 May 2015)

ian_m said:


> Yes other micros, they "unchelate" upon pH change and/or light but unlike iron do not generally react with macros, thus stay available to plants.


Thanks, very clear.


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## fablau (31 May 2015)

May 31, BBA UPDATE: gone. Yes, BBA is gone! Here is what I have done to make it disappear from my tank for the past month:

1. Got back to regular EI schedule by daily alternating macros with micros. Dosing 1/3 less than the recommended EI, just because I perform water change every 2 weeks.

2. Four weeks ago, after water change, I added recommended dose of Excel (the high dosage recommended after water change). That destroyed completely all BBA I had, but also damaged some of my Vals (too bad!) that have now recovered 

3. Raised Co2 a little until I could see pearling on plants (tanks Tom for the tip I read on another thread somewhere!). As a reference, I raised Co2 to reach 80ml per minute. And I'll keep it that way from now on!

So... this has been my recipe to get rid of BBA after 8 months of struggling!

I think the following points helped a big deal:

1. Excel helped to get rid of everything bad was out right at that moment (BBA)

2. Raising Co2.

3. Getting back into regular fert routine without being afraid of "toxicities". I mean, all my plants got better, Alternathera Reinikii included which was struggling in a long time! In particular I think the increase of micros helped the most.


I hope my experience could be useful for other people. I'll keep watching my tank to see if that damn BBA will ever come back, but so far so good! Thanks again to anyone on this forum for the help given.

Best,
Fab.


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