# Best LED



## Blade7 (12 Nov 2020)

So having returned to the hobby recently,  for my next project, I’m planning a 60 x 60 x 60 tank, I require a light that can successfully grow a decent carpet at that depth - any ideas.


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## zozo (13 Nov 2020)

Depends on your budget and aesthetic wishes, of course, Kessil light likely will do... If on a budget some descent COB LED floodlights could be adequate as well.

Kessil also uses a strong COB, these LEDs perform best nowadays regarding surface area vs intensity and consumption...

Take a look at this also a very tall tank and using floodlights...
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/2-000l-high-tech-beast.53176/

There are pretty strong relatively affordable and easy to install DIY COB LED units out there but they absolutely require descent cooling heatsinks and or fans. Depending on your budget and DIY skills there are quite enough options.

But IMHO the easiest and cheapest would be a decent floodlight.  The best option would be a dimmable version.


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## Siege (13 Nov 2020)

whats your budget?

best light bang for buck - Twinstar S (60cm depth it might be slow with say a hair grass carpet though).

Best light next one up (another league from Twinstar S) - ADA Aquasky RGB

Best light hands down - ADA Solar RGB


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## Blade7 (13 Nov 2020)

well that’s the issue, I don’t really fancy spending nearly 4 hundred for the kessil unit unless I really have to and that doesn’t even include the controller, esp if they’re equivalents out there. I do like the idea of floods, but penertaton, spectrum and aesthetics are relevant factors.  I also like the Fluval 3.0‘s im using now, but Im looking to be more hands on with this tank and bars get in the way. I’m checking out now the dimmable floods and the ADA


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## Nick potts (13 Nov 2020)

With 60cm depth you are going to need a light with a decent punch to get enough light at the substrate. Most lights are great up to about 30-40cm depth.

As mentioned above, kessils are good for deep tanks, or for a budget alternative you could look at these.

Amazon product


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## zozo (14 Nov 2020)

1 or 2 of these might be an option, according to the reviews not bad and easily dimmable. Not explained with what but I assume he used a phase dimmer... A Variac would work better I guess.

50 watts and +/- 4000 lumen
https://www.banggood.com/50W-COB-LE...?rmmds=category&ID=233511715&cur_warehouse=CN

But as said above you need some punch, and lights with a punch get hot... And one thing LEDs don't like is heat, it will shorten its lifespan.

You could go for a DIY options like this.
https://www.banggood.com/High-Power...tom-viewalsoview__5&ID=48036&cur_warehouse=CN

https://www.banggood.com/50W-5000LM...uytogether-auto&ID=383748036&cur_warehouse=CN

I made a few lights in the past with this kind of COBs the intensity of these lights is unreal. But it runs very hot and realy needs a massive heatsink and there are the minus points massive heatsinks are expensive. But it works with smaller ones too and then it needs a fan cooling. Regarding electronics they are relatively easy to install directly hooked to the main VAC 220 and most can be dimmed with a VARIAC. (Variable AC voltage regulator) The you need some DIY skills fixing it all in a hood.


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## Andy Pierce (30 Nov 2020)

I grow a marsilea carpet with a Kessil "tuna sun" A80 at a distance of 45 cm ( Current setup, Fireplace aquarium ).  At a distance of 60 cm, you could get two of the A80s which would give you about the same light at the 60 cm carpet in the region between the lights.  The A80 is nice in that it only requires passive cooling so no fan noise or moving parts to break and it doesn't get very hot even on full power. I run it on a simple timer without an external dedicated controller.


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## rebel (30 Nov 2020)

What is best is Beer, Beets and Battlestar galactica. 

Best option would be ADA Solar RGB.

What's your maximum budget?


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## Blade7 (9 Dec 2020)

Sorry for delay and thanks for all the comments, aquarium has arrived from aqua medic and I went for a 55cm height unit instead of 60cm. I’ve looked at the DIY possibilities  ie  floodlights which is doable, but in the end found a couple of cheaper ( Far East imports I’d say ) lights on eBay and Amazon for around £70 - £90 appx ea.  Looks nicer and have a dedicated attachment for an open top aquarium. They’re  not dimmable but I can work around that. See my other post on the actual units. 

Not sure about them but that’s part of the experiment.  

Why oh why are the kessils so expensive !!


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## Wookii (9 Dec 2020)

Blade7 said:


> Why oh why are the kessils so expensive !!



Component quality, engineering, R&D, after sales . . . 

It’s a bit like asking why an Audi is more expensive than a Dacia 😉


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## rebel (9 Dec 2020)

Blade7 said:


> Why oh why are the kessils so expensive !!


Most of the RD you pay for is for the salt water lights. Their freshwater lights are just as a hobby (for them) and it is evidenced by loud fans and poor spectrum for the freshwater lights. It's similar to living in the 90s with a seperate controller for adjustment rather than built in wifi controller.


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## Geoffrey Rea (9 Dec 2020)

rebel said:


> Most of the RD you pay for is for the salt water lights. Their freshwater lights are just as a hobby (for them) and it is evidenced by loud fans and poor spectrum for the freshwater lights. It's similar to living in the 90s with a seperate controller for adjustment rather than built in wifi controller.



Ran 4 Kessil A160 Tuna Sun units over a 4’x2’x2’ and will say they grow plants really well. By far the most natural shimmer effect of mass produced units in the hobby using LED chips and managed HC and Monte Carlo carpets at 2ft depth. Suited only to green plants because of spectrum but the mixing from the chips is great in that range. Expensive and the gooseneck arms aren’t ideal, but practical for getting lights out of your way.

@rebel ‘s point is more than fair though that they should have treated the freshwater design as a stand-alone rather than adapting their marine equivalent for freshwater. DiCon (the parent company) are far from a startup and make the bulk of their money elsewhere. Creating a freshwater light was purely to have a stake in that market. If you like shimmer though you’ll love Kessils. If you want even PAR/PUR across the footprint of your scape to grow carpet any of the previous options are more efficient.


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## Blade7 (10 Dec 2020)

I guess you pay for what you get,  the time may come when I’m invested enough to need to purchase a high end light such as a kessil, but if I can get by sufficiently with a much less expensive product, while gaining  adequate enough experience to enjoy the hobby, well only time will tell.

I don’t necessarily what if skimp on lighting, but need to balance effectiveness v cost 
Now next issue slightly off topic - maybe theres a thread that I can be pointed too - co2 inline diffuser v in tank atomiser, I even found an old ozone reactor from my marine days, which I think I can easily adapt to use an a c02  reactor.


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## oreo57 (10 Dec 2020)

Blade7 said:


> I guess you pay for what you get,  the time may come when I’m invested enough to need to purchase a high end light such as a kessil, but if I can get by sufficiently with a much less expensive product, while gaining  adequate enough experience to enjoy the hobby, well only time will tell.
> 
> I don’t necessarily what if skimp on lighting, but need to balance effectiveness v cost
> Now next issue slightly off topic - maybe theres a thread that I can be pointed too - co2 inline diffuser v in tank atomiser, I even found an old ozone reactor from my marine days, which I think I can easily adapt to use an a c02  reactor.


What would an AI Prime Freshwater  cost you?
Arguably the most cost effective expensive light..
Their sweet spot is more on the line of a 45x 45 cube though.

As to CO2 generally reactor is best, then in line then atomizer
There are factors to consider like  filter tube size and type and max regulator pressure..ect..
This one was nice and alleviated me from worrying about an outside plastic unit failing.








						Qanvee - CO2 Atomizer - M2
					

The Qanvee CO2 Atomizer impresses with its extremely slim and attractive design. As with other inline atomizers, the CO2 supply is routed so that it takes place outside the tank....




					www.aquasabi.com
				




I had one that developed crazing and a hole from possibly over pressurizing it.



Grey plastic version never did this.
Actually was why I moved to all "in tank" stuff such as a disc atomizer.
BUT keep in mind that I was running the CO2 at about 45psi at least 10 over "normal".
Tubing was designed and to take that pressure but apparently the plastic wasn't.


I've used 3 different in-lines and 3 different atomizers.. Too lazy to build a good reactor and also don't want more places for accidents.

So a few observations and a suggestion since you are comfortable w/ reactors or more likely more "external reefy stuff"..go w/ one. Plenty of DIY designs to build one on the cheap.

To add a bit of exotica to this there is a CO2 delivery system that is built like an under gravel array using the theory that captured gas bubbles of CO2 are more efficient than dissolution of the gas .








						CO2 Tube Diffuser (New Design?)
					

Following the recent ‘re-discovery’ that diffused CO2 bubbles might benefit plants more than using a reactor (thanks to                  @Xiaozhuang pointing us to the T Barr study), I decided to try it. It does seem that I can drive CO2 higher (.4 increase in the Ph drop, Kh ~1dKH, pH7.2 drop...




					www.plantedtank.net
				




your thread.. take it to where you want it to go..

Choose a reactor wisely..


Oh and Bell systems..


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## Wookii (10 Dec 2020)

Blade7 said:


> I guess you pay for what you get,  the time may come when I’m invested enough to need to purchase a high end light such as a kessil, but if I can get by sufficiently with a much less expensive product, while gaining  adequate enough experience to enjoy the hobby, well only time will tell.
> 
> I don’t necessarily what if skimp on lighting, but need to balance effectiveness v cost
> Now next issue slightly off topic - maybe theres a thread that I can be pointed too - co2 inline diffuser v in tank atomiser, I even found an old ozone reactor from my marine days, which I think I can easily adapt to use an a c02  reactor.



You do get what you pay for, you're absolutely right. I'm not personally a fan of the Kessil's - I would agree with @oreo57 the AI primes are far better lights, but there is no disputing the quality of both lights. You dead right too, you have to buy what is within budget, but I'd certainly recommend getting a light that at least has some degree of intensity adjustment otherwise you could find yourself battling algae in short order.

As for CO2, there are plenty of people that have success with in tank diffusers - I personally don't like to see any equipment in tanks so I go inline with a reactor.  For the inline I'd recommend the JBL ProFlora unit - it's easy to use and maintain, and has an integrated check valve and bubble counter.


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## Blade7 (11 Dec 2020)

Wookii said:


> You do get what you pay for, you're absolutely right. I'm not personally a fan of the Kessil's - I would agree with @oreo57 the AI primes are far better lights, but there is no disputing the quality of both lights. You dead right too, you have to buy what is within budget, but I'd certainly recommend getting a light that at least has some degree of intensity adjustment otherwise you could find yourself battling algae in short order.
> 
> As for CO2, there are plenty of people that have success with in tank diffusers - I personally don't like to see any equipment in tanks so I go inline with a reactor.  For the inline I'd recommend the JBL ProFlora unit - it's easy to use and maintain, and has an integrated check valve and bible counter.


Thanks for that, I agree the only big drawback with these lights was the non dimmable functionality,  but for now I’ll try and be creative with photo periods, and staggering / alternating between both units, as well as the usual WC routine.  I’m researching the AI primes as they seem a tad more affordable - you recommend them?

any drawbacks to using a diffuser ?


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## Wookii (11 Dec 2020)

Blade7 said:


> Thanks for that, I agree the only big drawback with these lights was the non dimmable functionality,  but for now I’ll try and be creative with photo periods, and staggering / alternating between both units, as well as the usual WC routine.  I’m researching the AI primes as they seem a tad more affordable - you recommend them?



Yes, the Primes are very good lights - but very powerful - they are quite deceiving, and being a point source light will result in shimmer if you like that (I do).

On the cheap lights, if you can get one that feeds off a 12v power supply, than you might be able to use the S2 Pro controller that is used with the Twinstar and Chihiros LED's.



Blade7 said:


> any drawbacks to using a diffuser ?



Which type?


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## jaypeecee (11 Dec 2020)

Wookii said:


> Component quality, engineering, R&D, after sales . . .


Hi @Wookii 

The only Kessil lighting that I saw 'in the flesh' used tie wraps to tidy up the supply wiring - and these tie wraps were on full view. It looked a mess. They were part of an installation at my local MA. Couldn't believe my eyes and the store manager wasn't too happy either - considering the money he'd had to fork out for these. When I re-equip my 125 litre tank, I'll almost certainly get my lighting from here:









						aquaLUMix LED-light-bar AMAZON-GROW
					

Compact light - ready-configured: AMAZON GROW colour variation is a bright, tropical light, with a focus on optimum plant growth, including Grow LEDs.




					www.ledaquaristik.de
				




Unless things have changed, I don't believe that Kessil provides much in the way of a technical specification for their lighting products. Compare that with the German company above.

JPC


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## Wookii (11 Dec 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Wookii
> 
> The only Kessil lighting that I saw 'in the flesh' used tie wraps to tidy up the supply wiring - and these tie wraps were on full view. It looked a mess. They were part of an installation at my local MA. Couldn't believe my eyes and the store manager wasn't too happy either - considering the money he'd had to fork out for these. When I re-equip my 125 litre tank, I'll almost certainly get my lighting from here:
> 
> ...



Fair point on the cables, but then cable management has to be dealt with on any light used. I agree that I don't know why the cables can't be run inside the goose neck fittings - the AI Prime gooseneck is a little better in that it has dedicated clips that hide the cable on the rear of the gooseneck a little better - but with a bit of careful management and a bit of effort most cables can be tidied away well enough for a clean aesthetic.

My issues with the Kessils were the poor (very yellow) colour rendition that couldn't be adjusted out without extreme loss of output, the noisy fan, and the requirement for a separate wifi 'dongle'  The AI Prime pulls ahead in all three areas; bags of output even with the warm white LED's turned off completely, fully integrated app control, and whisper quiet fan.

As to the lights you linked to, they look a decent enough light John, but to be honest I don't think I could go back to white LED based lights now I've used combination RGB chip based lights, they just can't match them for colour rendition.  if they could swap out the white LED's they use for combination RGB chips (like those used by ADA, Chihiros, ONF etc) and keep the other red and blue chips they use to broaden the peaks in the red, green and blue sections of the spectrum, they could be onto a winner.

They also look fairly expensive once you factor in (if I'm reading it correctly) that you have to order a power supply separately for  35 Euro, and the web controller for an extra 195 Euro.  That puts the price well over the Chihiros WRGB II which already offers app based control with almost infinite colour mix options, and better overall colour rendition.

Neither though is much use to someone looking at the Kessils and AI Primes who wants the shimmer that can only be produced from a point source light.


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## oreo57 (12 Dec 2020)

Just for fun I ran an estimate for the aquaLUMix  
Based on the 115cm version.
All channels on


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## jaypeecee (14 Dec 2020)

Wookii said:


> ...if they could swap out the white LED's they use for combination RGB chips (like those used by ADA, Chihiros, ONF etc) and keep the other red and blue chips they use to broaden the peaks in the red, green and blue sections of the spectrum, they could be onto a winner.


Hi @Wookii 

Thanks for the feedback.

One of the reasons I'm drawn to the LEDAquaristik lighting is their choice of LEDs emitting at 450nm and 660nm, which correspond to the peak responses of chlorophyll b and chlorophyll a, respectively. Plus, they do show the resulting spectra for these products. Alas, they don't provide PPF* figures. By contrast, I seem to remember that most Chihiros freshwater lighting in the red emits at 630nm. I suspect that many aquarium lighting manufacturers focus (pun intended!) on lighting aesthetics whilst compromising on healthy growth. And, there's also the potential for some wavelengths to promote Cyanobacteria (aka BGA) and BBA.

*PPF = Photosynthetic Photon Flux

JPC


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## jaypeecee (14 Dec 2020)

Hi @oreo57

Good to be in touch with you again. 

Adjustment of channels 1 - 4 should be able to increase the overall score above 78 - no? And it may increase CRI. BTW, where did you get hold of _Spectrum Adviser_? Is it a _Waveform Lighting_ tool? It looks pretty good.

JPC


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## Wookii (14 Dec 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Wookii
> 
> Thanks for the feedback.
> 
> ...



I'm aware you have no doubt researched this at length John, and ultimately people have to pick a light that is right for them, but my understanding is that, as long as a light provides red and blue light of some sort in sufficient quantities, the precise centre frequency of the spectral peaks is largely irrelevant. 

This can be seen easily by the successful plant growth achieved across such a huge variety of light fittings, and lighting types, used in this forum alone. I don't believe any light of sufficient output will compromise plant growth in any way - output being equal, it really does just come down to the aesthetics created by the light, the user features available with it, and of course budget. 

Also, if you do feel the exact spectral output is important, if you look at @oreo57's post above on the LEDAquaristik lights, the output at 630nm appear to be only slightly less than that at 660nm in any case - presumably due to the majority of the output coming from the white LED's.

As for the algae, I've been using these RBG LED based lights for some time now, and I've only had a tiny patch of BGA once in amongst some moss where the flow was almost zero. I have had BBA, but for me it was clearly more closely linked to other factors like filter maintenance, which once rectified eliminated the BBA largely permanently. I think with both algae types, there are other factors which have a much larger influence on their prevalence than any possible effect of the spectral output of the light.


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## jaypeecee (14 Dec 2020)

Hi @Wookii

Rather than reply to each of the points you have made, if you're interested, I would refer you to an expert in the field of plant lighting - Dr Bruce Bugbee. Although his focus (there's that pun again!) seems to be horticultural lighting, I can't see why most of what he says wouldn't also apply to aquarium plants. I have made numerous references to the following video elsewhere on UKAPS but here it is again for convenience:




Listen out for comments he makes such as 'blue light shrinks plants'.

Light spectrum isn't just about growth and aesthetics. It has been demonstrated that there is a phenomenon known as the photoreduction of iron. Wavelengths below 520nm (blue/violet) can release free iron from a type of chelated iron. I'll quote from Diana Walstad's _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_:

"Algae grew well under normal light with chelated iron as the only iron source, but when light wavelengths below 520nm were filtered out, the same algae became iron deficient and would not grow". Of course, we couldn't remove all light at wavelengths below 520nm as plants also utilize this part of the spectrum. I guess it's a question of finding the right balance.

It's interesting stuff and relevant to our tanks.

JPC


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## Wookii (14 Dec 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> It's interesting stuff and relevant to our tanks.
> 
> JPC



It is very interesting stuff I agree, I'm a tech geek with most of this kind of stuff too, almost to a fault. It would be interesting to see what, if any, difference the inclusion of a greater output in the far red region would make. Given far reds are filtered out quite rapidly by water, it may be that aquatics plants have adapted such that they don't have the same growth response to an increase in it.

However, I would still maintain that the relevance might be limited to the average hobbyist who is able to grow algae free plants under most-any type of light, and who perhaps might not be as interested in single digit percentage changes to production yields or a small change in overall plant width, as they are in the quality of the colour rendition of their aquarium.


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## jaypeecee (14 Dec 2020)

Wookii said:


> However, I would still maintain that the relevance might be limited to the average hobbyist who is able to grow algae free plants under most-any type of light, and who perhaps might not be as interested in single digit percentage changes to production yields or a small change in overall plant width, as they are in the quality of the colour rendition of their aquarium.



Hi @Wookii

You may well be right! My point is quite simply that colour rendition alone should not be the only consideration when choosing aquarium lighting. I have tried to show that other factors may need to be considered. Simple as that.

JPC


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## dw1305 (14 Dec 2020)

Hi all, 


jaypeecee said:


> My point is quite simply that colour rendition alone should not be the only consideration when choosing aquarium lighting


You used to be able to buy entirely blue LED arrays  for terrestrial plants. I don't know if any-one has tried one as an aquarium light?

cheers Darrel


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## oreo57 (14 Dec 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @oreo57
> 
> Good to be in touch with you again.
> 
> ...


Well if you are referring to the generated spectrum its sort if complicated.
First need a decent spectrum.
Then you digitize it.
Then clean the data 
Then import it into  Spectra








						SPECTRA
					

SPECTRA can perform the optical simulation of many required for coral breeding. SPECTRAはサンゴ飼育に必要な多くの光学シミュレーションを行う事が可能です。




					spectra.1023world.net
				




Doesn't work in android afaict

As to dimming.. dropping the blue channel should improve color rendering though only a guess.
Would have to import each channel spectrum and adjust it.

WebPlotDigitizer
Notepad++


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## oreo57 (14 Dec 2020)

Wookii said:


> It is very interesting stuff I agree, I'm a tech geek with most of this kind of stuff too, almost to a fault. It would be interesting to see what, if any, difference the inclusion of a greater output in the far red region would make. Given far reds are filtered out quite rapidly by water, it may be that aquatics plants have adapted such that they don't have the same growth response to an increase in it.
> 
> However, I would still maintain that the relevance might be limited to the average hobbyist who is able to grow algae free plants under most-any type of light, and who perhaps might not be as interested in single digit percentage changes to production yields or a small change in overall plant width, as they are in the quality of the colour rendition of their aquarium.


Best fight against algae is a clean tank w fast growing plants.
Algae can only germinate w free ammonium.
Can't use nitrate nitrogen ect 

No germination..no algae.


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## jaypeecee (14 Dec 2020)

oreo57 said:


> Algae can only germinate w free ammonium.


Hi @oreo57 

I've been looking into this very topic recently but I can't find any definitive evidence in support of what you have stated above. Do you have any research papers on this? I'd greatly appreciate being pointed to such research.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (14 Dec 2020)

Hi @oreo57 

Although not a scientific research paper, the following article supports what you were saying:






						Nitrate (NO3) and phosphate (PO4) don’t cause algae. Ammonia does!! - Aquarium-fertilizer.com
					






					aquarium-fertilizer.com
				




JPC


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## jaypeecee (14 Dec 2020)

Hi Everyone,

In order to kill off algae spores in the water column, the use of UV-C sterilization is worth considering. I used this as part of my battle against cyanobacteria when I discussed it here in post #58:






						Cyanobacteria Identification - At Last!
					

It’s believed to be erythromycin  Hi @becks   In that case, my understanding is that it wouldn't be considered legal in the UK as it's an antibiotic.  JPC



					www.ukaps.org
				




JPC


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## rebel (14 Dec 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> The only Kessil lighting that I saw 'in the flesh' used tie wraps to tidy up the supply wiring - and these tie wraps were on full view. It looked a mess.


This is what I mean. Some of these manufacturers are trolling the users.  Imagine paying hundreds to get a light that's loud and ugly!!!


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## rebel (14 Dec 2020)

Wookii said:


> The AI Prime pulls ahead in all three areas; bags of output even with the warm white LED's turned off completely, fully integrated app control, and whisper quiet fan.


Agree with this. The only wean point is the that 90 degree arm which can sometimes wobble (maybe they fixed it in the newer versions).

Good to hear that the output is good as this was one of my hangups about it.


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## oreo57 (14 Dec 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @oreo57
> 
> Although not a scientific research paper, the following article supports what you were saying:
> 
> ...


Thanks. After you posted it I started questioning my own statement though at the time seemed valid. 
I need to check into this more but it doesn't change the observations of clean tanks/ healthy fast growing plants means less algae no matter the light spectrum.


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## rebel (14 Dec 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> Nitrate (NO3) and phosphate (PO4) don’t cause algae. Ammonia does!! - Aquarium-fertilizer.com
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This ammonia hypothesis is 'proven in the hobby' is it not? I thought there was countless conversations about it in the 90s or maybe 2000s in the Barr report forum. EI would somewhat support this also right with huge doses of nitrates etc?


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## oreo57 (15 Dec 2020)

rebel said:


> This ammonia hypothesis is 'proven in the hobby' is it not? I thought there was countless conversations about it in the 90s or maybe 2000s in the Barr report forum. EI would somewhat support this also right with huge doses of nitrates etc?


It's pretty common..


> Algae is NOT caused by "excess" nitrates and phosphates. Otherwise many aquarists such as myself would have an algae farm when they dose 60+ppm of nitrate per week and dose 15+ppm phosphate per week. Plants do not "outcompete" algae as algae is one of the most primitive organisms around. They need very little nutrient quantities to survive and grow. Limiting nutrients will hurt your plants more than the algae. The only nutrient that "causes" algae is ammonia because it allows the spores to become adults. That is why dosing urea or ammonium nitrate might be risky in the planted aquarium, as a straight source of ammonia in a high enough quantity may spark an algae bloom since there is enough ammonia available to allow the algae spores to become adults.
> 
> Note: I am not stating that light "causes" algae. This is because aquatic plants can be grown in the strongest source of light (direct sunlight) without algae, so it goes to show that if you have high enough CO2 and balanced/sufficient fertilizer levels, you won't have an issue with algae even with super strong light sources.











						Algae Management and Algae Myths in the Planted Aquarium
					

Algae management is often one of the most difficult and irritating aspects of the planted aquarium hobby.  Without the right management, it is easy for algae blooms to get out of hand, which often leads to a ruined aesthetic and algae-smothered...




					www.fishlore.com
				





> Do 'excess nutrients' trigger algae?​
> Algae requires nutrients to grow, so the idea that if you have large amounts of nutrients in the water, algae will bloom more easily is an intuitive leap to take. This depends on the type of nutrient in question - not all elements have the same impact on the ecosystem. Not all 'nutrients' are equal so to say. For example, having 100ppm (parts per million) of Calcium or Potassium has no impact on algae present/absence in tanks, but having even small ammonia spikes can trigger algae - thus having a cycled tank with matured bio-filter is helpful.There is generally little argument against these observations among aquatic plant growers.
> 
> 
> ...











						Do excess nutrients trigger algae growth in a planted tank?
					

Do excess nitrates and phosphates cause algae in a planted aquarium? Is excess nutrients the main cause of algae issues ? This page explores in which situations in which excess nutrients are likely to cause problems and see which cases in which they do not.




					www.2hraquarist.com
				




Personally, when I've had bad BBA outbreaks the one very noticeable factor is .. none on new leaves, none left on dead leaves, healthy bba growth on intermediate leaves i.e probably getting senile and leaky..
I wouldn't rule out a "chain of events" say.. bacteria on the older leaves then BBA.

Mr. Barr "backing off" on ammonia..








						Why does ammonium and ammonia cause algae?
					

I was reading a forum where Tom Barr stated that ammonia or ammonium causes algae in a high light planted tank. Don't plants feed off ammonium and ammonia? If they do, it doesn't make sense to me why ammonia and ammonium would cause algae in a high light planted tank since the plants would be...




					www.plantedtank.net


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## Wookii (15 Dec 2020)

oreo57 said:


> Best fight against algae is a clean tank w fast growing plants.
> Algae can only germinate w free ammonium.
> Can't use nitrate nitrogen ect
> 
> No germination..no algae.



Agree for the most part - healthy growing plants seem to trump algae every time - though I'm yet to see a full and credible explanation of why that is the case.

Every tank must have free ammonium at some level, and I imagine algae spores must require only a miniscule amount of it, given algae can grow in RO water on a window sill in direct sunlight. So I'm not sure free ammonium is the complete answer to algae, or the lack thereof.


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## dw1305 (15 Dec 2020)

Hi all, 


rebel said:


> This ammonia hypothesis is 'proven in the hobby' is it not?





oreo57 said:


> Algae can only germinate w free ammonium.


I think the problem really lies with the term "algae" and imagining that there is one trigger for a grouping of organisms <"that covers every form of photosynthetic organism">. 




If you look at the phylogeny of the photosynthetic organisms you can see that the <"Green Algae and Higher Plants form a clade"> and are much more closely related to one another than they are to any of the other photosynthetic organisms.  One reason we know that the Green Algae, Mosses, Ferns and Flowering Plants are closely related is that they share the same photosynthetic pathways and basic physiology. 

There is also <"ecology to take into account">, in the same way that some plants are <"turned up to eleven plants"> so are some "algae" that are associated with <"low nutrient conditions">. 

cheers Darrel


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## oreo57 (15 Dec 2020)

Wookii said:


> Agree for the most part - healthy growing plants seem to trump algae every time - though I'm yet to see a full and credible explanation of why that is the case.
> 
> Every tank must have free ammonium at some level, and I imagine algae spores must require only a  So I'm not sure free ammonium is the complete answer to algae, or the lack thereof.





Wookii said:


> Agree for the most part - healthy growing plants seem to trump algae every time - though I'm yet to see a full and credible explanation of why that is the case.
> 
> given algae can grow in RO water on a window sill in direct sunlight. So I'm not sure free ammonium is the complete answer to algae, or the lack thereof.


Dust...
You can't make chlorophyll without N.
No it isn't the complete answer. Nothing is ever simple.


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## dw1305 (16 Dec 2020)

Hi all,


Wookii said:


> must require only a miniscule amount of it, given algae can grow in RO water on a window sill in direct sunlight





oreo57 said:


> Dust...
> You can't make chlorophyll without N.





dw1305 said:


> You can store RO indefinitely. It will grow a small fuzz of green algae if it is more than about 5 microS.


Yes, @oreo57 is right,  you need <"all fourteen"> of the essential mineral nutrients for plant growth, but some of them <"must be in minute amounts">.

cheers Darrel


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## dw1305 (16 Dec 2020)

Hi all, 


jaypeecee said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> In order to kill off algae spores in the water column, the use of UV-C sterilization is worth considering. I used this as part of my battle against cyanobacteria when I discussed it here in post #58:
> 
> ...


One for you I think @jaypeecee? <"Ultrasonic irradiation for blue-green algae control">. I have no idea what it does to higher plants. 

cheers Darrel


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## Wookii (16 Dec 2020)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> One for you I think @jaypeecee? <"Ultrasonic irradiation for blue-green algae control">. I have no idea what it does to higher plants.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Interesting stuff - it's quite surprising that the required frequency is so close to that human auditory band. I would have thought a much high frequency would have been required. Even more surprising was the comment:



> Ultrasonic devices are already applied to ponds, pools, lakes and reservoirs to destroy algae and control their growth in an environmentally friendly way.


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## dw1305 (16 Dec 2020)

Hi all,


Wookii said:


> Even more surprising was the comment: "_Ultrasonic devices are already applied to ponds, pools, lakes and reservoirs to destroy algae and control their growth in an environmentally friendly way_".


They are a Dutch Company and I think it is used a lot more in Continental Europe. I had a feeling that it had been used somewhere locally to me, possibly this one <"by Bournemouth Water">.

This is the <"link for AL50">.

cheers Darrel


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## Wookii (16 Dec 2020)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> They are a Dutch Company and I think it is used a lot more in Continental Europe. I had a feeling that it had been used somewhere locally to me, possibly this one <"by Bournemouth Water">.
> 
> ...



They even have an 'aquaria' version:






						AL 5 - Ultrasonic unit
					

New and environmental friendly technique that helps to keep clean aquaria or small ponds




					www.lenntech.com


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## Wookii (16 Dec 2020)

Some interesting info and microscope images here: https://dreamsails.co/shop/wp-content/uploads/Ultrasonic-Algae-Control.pdf

I can't find much info on the effect on other plants and mosses etc.


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## dw1305 (16 Dec 2020)

Hi all, 


Wookii said:


> I can't find much info on the effect on other plants and mosses etc.


The pdf says that it doesn't control _Chara or Nitella_ or anything more "planty" then them. 

cheers Darrel


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## Wookii (16 Dec 2020)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> The pdf says that it doesn't control _Chara or Nitella_ or anything more "planty" then them.
> 
> cheers Darrel



I assume that would suggest that mosses and liverworts etc are safe then?

I have dropped Lenntech an e-mail to ask the question directly - and also to find out how much that AL5 unit is! I can't imagine its going to be cheap though! 

I am surprised that given this is appears to be a technology in fairly widespread use commercially, to find almost no mention of it in aquariums - other than Tom Barr rubbishing it on the PlantedTank back in 2010.









						Ultrasonic algae control?
					

Ultrasound of swept frequencies from 25-75 khz is apparently being used with success in ponds to kill algae, without harming fish and plants.  It's also used as one method to rupture algal cells, to release oil for producing biofuels.  And it can destroy bacteria.  Different effects can be...




					www.plantedtank.net


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## jaypeecee (16 Dec 2020)

Hi @oreo57 & Everyone,

This is the bit that I'm homing in on:

"The only nutrient that "causes" algae is ammonia because it allows the spores to become adults".

Forgive me if I've missed something in scanning the most recent posts but is the above statement correct and, if so, what evidence do we have for this? And, sorry to be pedantic, but I assume we'd be talking about ammonium, not free ammonia? This is relevant as we might expect algae to be less prevalent in alkaline water (the NH4+/NH3/pH curve). I hope I'm making myself clear. If not, I'll try again after my morning coffee!

Until then...

JPC


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## dw1305 (16 Dec 2020)

Hi all,


jaypeecee said:


> but I assume we'd be talking about ammonium, not free ammonia? ......
> This is relevant as we might expect algae to be less prevalent in alkaline water (the NH4+/NH3/pH curve).


You definitely tend to get more green algae in alkaline conditions in the "wild".

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee (16 Dec 2020)

dw1305 said:


> You definitely tend to get more green algae in alkaline conditions in the "wild".


Hi @dw1305 

So, that's interesting, isn't it? Doesn't that tend to suggest that algae spores can also get nitrogen from nitrite and nitrate? In other words, algae spores may not be solely dependent on ammonia/ammonium as a source of nitrogen. Perhaps algae spores can also use urea? I wouldn't know.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (16 Dec 2020)

dw1305 said:


> One for you I think @jaypeecee? <"Ultrasonic irradiation for blue-green algae control">.


Hi @dw1305 

It seems that water companies have been investigating this for the last few years:



			https://www.acoustics.asn.au/conference_proceedings/INTERNOISE2014/papers/p670.pdf
		


It's sometimes difficult to think of this as ultrasound when some of the equipment is operating at 1.7MHz! Imagine that! Perhaps those conducting the experiments found that their teeth fell out!

JPC


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## dw1305 (16 Dec 2020)

Hi all,


jaypeecee said:


> Doesn't that tend to suggest that algae spores can also get nitrogen from nitrite and nitrate?


My  guess is that, at least some of them, can. It is back to the <"one-legged Irishman"> argument. 

Because fixed nitrogen is was both rare, and tends to be patchy, in  the natural environment having ammonia/um (NH3/NH4+) as a trigger for growth from a resting spore would make sense.  It would allow an organism to exploit these sudden booms and then go back to waiting during the busts.


jaypeecee said:


> Perhaps algae spores can also use urea?


Possibly, although that <"urea is going to be scavenged pretty effectively"> and ammonia released.

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee (16 Dec 2020)

dw1305 said:


> I think the problem really lies with the term "algae"...


Hi @dw1305 

Green algae (chlorophyta), red algae (rhodophyta) and diatoms would appear to be a good starting point. And here's some bedtime reading:






						AlgaeBase :: Listing the World’s Algae
					

Algaebase :: Listing the World's Algae



					www.algaebase.org
				




JPC


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## oreo57 (16 Dec 2020)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> You definitely tend to get more green algae in alkaline conditions in the "wild".
> 
> cheers Darrel


Which favors free ammonia over ammonium 




Also..








						Algae Culture and pH
					

By Matthew Huber and Katie Blaha-Robinson                 The pH in water measures how acidic or basic that water is. Anyone who has ever maintained a pool can attest that monitoring pH is incredibly important. This is because pH affects nearly every biologic and chemical process, especially...




					algaeresearchsupply.com


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## not called Bob (17 Dec 2020)

that’s interesting, at those frequencies pinnipeds and cetaceans are monitored and mitigated for when using a HIPAP on survey equipment, most fish don’t seem to upset and hang around the ROV’s especially in-front of a visible light source (as opposed to the lasers)


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## rebel (17 Dec 2020)

Wookii said:


> I am surprised that given this is appears to be a technology in fairly widespread use commercially, to find almost no mention of it in aquariums - other than Tom Barr rubbishing it on the PlantedTank back in 2010.


Tom says he tried it and it doesn't work. I reckon someone else should also try it!!! How far would ultrasound frequencies travel in water??


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## Wookii (17 Dec 2020)

rebel said:


> Tom says he tried it and it doesn't work. I reckon someone else should also try it!!!



Agreed. It was 10 years ago, you would hope the tech has evolved a little since then. one of the issues my be the active radius of the devices. The Lenntech ones appear to have a minimum active radius - even the smallest unit has a minimum active radius of  one metre, which might exclude most domestic aquariums. There is also the fact the sound is being transmitted in a glass box, and similar to transmitting sound in a small room, there will be a lot of reflection, interaction and cancellation  of the soundwaves making the results less predictable - not to mention line of sight issues with hardscape etc.

I would think it certainly warrants further testing though. I can only assume that hasn't happened because its cost prohibitive.



rebel said:


> How far would ultrasound frequencies travel in water??



Further than I thought they would. I know that sound waves travel a lot further in water, but high frequencies generally don't travel as far as low frequencies.

It obviously depends on the amplitude output of the device, but the commercial units appears to be able to deal with large lakes with a few transducers. The largest of those Lenntech units is specified as covering a 150 metre radius. The big LGSonic units appear to be able to cover a radius of 500 metres: MPC-Buoy - Complete Algae Control Solution - LG Sonic


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## rebel (17 Dec 2020)

Maybe the use case could be intermittent; much like how I use UV (only used 3 times ever!).


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