# So many problems I don't know where to start!



## Lairewen (31 Aug 2010)

Erm... help. Please.

I've been trying to get plants to grow for over a year - and failed. My plants don't grow and I think I have about 4 different kinds of algae. The brown algae is the worst - it's everywhere and makes the tanks look dirty. (I have 2 with live plants.) 

I have an arcadia classica with a tropical sunlight lamp and an aquastart 320 with whatever the standard is. Are these just no good? I also dose with API leafzone weekly and the 320 has eco complete. 

Money is tight so expensive new lights and set-ups are out of the question. Is there anything I can do that won't break the bank? 

Thanks.


----------



## nry (31 Aug 2010)

Can you give us some more detail on the tank?  Size, fish and how many, what gravel etc. you have, what filter you use, how often the tank and filter are cleaned (and how), and possibly tell us what plants you have?


----------



## Lairewen (31 Aug 2010)

Hi,

Tank one is 30L, with natural pea gravel and an eheim pickup internal filter. Stock is one male betta and pygmy cories. It's been running about 18 months.

Tank two is 28L with eco complete and an aquaone internal filter. Stock is one male betta and a couple of shrimp. It's been running about 3 years, but only planted for about 18 months. 

Water changes are done fortnightly, using a gravel vaccum, though I try to stay away from the roots. Filter pads are rinsed in old tank water every 2 months.

I'm afraid I have no idea what my plants are. I'll try and get some pictures up later if that helps.


----------



## nry (31 Aug 2010)

How long are the lights on for?


----------



## Lairewen (31 Aug 2010)

About 6-8 hours a day.


----------



## Lisa_Perry75 (31 Aug 2010)

It looks like API leaf zone only contains iron and potassium. Imagine an ideal human diet, you need good amounts of carbohydrate, protein and fat. Plants need potassium, phosphate and nitrates. You need a range of vitamins and minerals, not just iron, and so do plants. Plants also need a form of carbon like we do air. It usually comes from CO2 but they can utilise a chemical found in Seachem flourish excel/Easycarbo. I recommend feeding your plants!

If you take a clear picture of the tank we might be able to identify some plants. Some unscrupulous retailers will sell you non-aquatic plants, these obviously won't do so well. Hopefully we could also see if you have any of those in there.


----------



## Lairewen (31 Aug 2010)

This is tank one - I'm off to work soon, so I'll take tank two later. 






See the problem? It's embarassing!


----------



## Tom (31 Aug 2010)

Hi,

The first thing I would do is to remove any dead and decaying leaves from the tank, wipe the algae off the glass and equipment and do a 50% water change. I would then advise 25% water changes every week, and maybe clean your filter pads a little bit more often. 

Then I would invest in a fertiliser like Tropica Plant Nutrition, alongside a bottle of Seachem Flourish Excel or Easy Carbo for the carbon source. 

Rather than dosing once a week as the Tropica bottle suggests, I would divide that into 7 daily doses as it makes for a more even spread of nutrients during the week. 

One key to avoiding algae is to keep things steady and stable. If you dose the correct amount of Tropica Plant Nutrition daily, provide enough carbon (using Flourish Excel for example) you should really be able to limit the algae growth and you should notice your plants becoming much healthier. Another thing to be sure of is that the flow from the filter is evenly distributing the water and these fertilisers to all areas of the tank. 

If your plants are getting regular doses of Tropica Plant Nutrition, the right amount of Carbon from Flourish Excel or EasyCarbo, good distribution from the filter, regular lighting periods and regular maintenance, you will be on the right track.

I'm sure someone will chime in with a more thorough explanation!

Tom


----------



## NeilW (31 Aug 2010)

I think Toms advice is pretty sound, he's got it spot on.  Go with that and see how you do.  I think your problems are caused from a lack of both nutrients and CO2 in combination with a dirty tank.  I'd also cut the lighting down to 6 hours a day and don't be shy with the gravel cleaning and water changes.  I'd even go so far as doing 50% water changes every other day/every third day until it sorts itself out.  

Good luck


----------



## Lairewen (31 Aug 2010)

Thanks everyone. If I got easy carbo, could I use that in combination with the API leaf zone for now? I'd prefer to use up what I have before buying anything else if possible! 

If it's any better, I also have a bottle of JBL plant food - they sent it to me after a problem with another product, so I've no experience with it. 

I will increase the water changes too and cut the light time down. What sort of timeframe am I looking at before I see an improvement?


----------



## nayr88 (1 Sep 2010)

good advice so far, all i can chim in is that general better upkeep of the tank will go a long long way to your battle  

good luck


----------



## Lairewen (1 Sep 2010)

I do need one of those! I *had* one and then my 2 year old happened to it!


----------



## Lisa_Perry75 (1 Sep 2010)

How quickly you see changes will largely depend on how much time and effort you put in, and if you act upon the advice given.

What does the JBL product have in it? If it contains phosphate, nitrates, potassium and trace elements then great. From experience I don't think it would. If the label isn't helpful then try googling it.

PS You could always buy the dry powder ferts. You would need KH2PO4, KNO3 and Trace mix. If you want less hassle, more cost use TPN+. More hassle, less cost then use dry ferts.


----------



## YzemaN (1 Sep 2010)

I just had a look at JBL's website and none of them _"...contain the algae nutrients phosphate and nitrate"_ [sic] 
API Leaf Zone contains only Potassium Phosphate and some form of iron.
My advise would be to take your so-called "fertilisers", look at them, laugh at them, bin them!!!

Without carbon, nitrate, phosphates and potassium you plants WILL NOT GROW! Those are the main building blocks and in addition to that they need TRACE AMOUNTS of other minerals and metals (AKA. trace, micro or CSM+B)

So get yourself a good all-round fertiliser (e.g. *Tropica Plant Nutrition+* , the one WITH nitrate and phosphate) or mix up a batch yourself:
All In One Solution

Depending on the strength of your lighting you might also have to add a carbon source (CO2 or Glutaraldehyde. Look trough our tutorial section for more indepth information


----------



## Tom (1 Sep 2010)

Yep I also recommend just getting a good all-in-one fertiliser and forgetting the others  You won't be able to improve the situation with the API or JBL as they are.


----------



## Lairewen (1 Sep 2010)

Wow, why do they even sell these things? What a waste of money! Glad I didn't pay for the JBL one!

I'm going to Oxford tomorrow and there's apparently a pretty good aquatic shop there, so I'll see if they have a decent one that's within my budget. Because at this stage, I'm wasting money on replacing plants every couple of months! 

I will be altering my maintinance routine too, as per the suggestions.


----------



## Lisa_Perry75 (1 Sep 2010)

Just to warn you that Tropica sell two fertilisers 'Tropica plant nutrition' and 'Tropica plant nutrition +" buy the plus, regular doesn't have nitrates or phosphates in either. I know a few people have mentioned this but it is worth pointing out clearly as it is a very subtle difference on the packet, for a massive difference in content. If you mean the goldfish bowl, that is quite a good shop and also there is a Maidenhead Aquatics in the outskirts.

Re why do shops sell useless products, I'm sure Ceg would have some choice words to say about the matrix, but basically most shops will tell you that nitrates and phosphates cause algae. Just googled TPN+ for a rough price and I've found it Â£17.99 for 500mls here http://www.gardenandleisure.com/products/tropica_plantnutrition_plusliquid.html
How much you need depends on the size of the tank which I can't remember sorry. Maybe someone else could suggest how much to dose per day?


----------



## Bobtastic (1 Sep 2010)

Just to be contradictory I have a Juwel Rekord - 110l running on 2x T8 lights and my plants grow happily (some slowly, others not so slowly) with no addition of nutrients. This is a typical "low tech" tank. I have low demanding plants in like Java Fern, Xmass Moss and Java Moss, I also have some off cuts of Hydrocotyle verticillata that seem to be doing already too.

The point that everyone is making is that to prevent algae attacks you need to create a balance between Light, and Nutrients (including Co2). Flow can also be important to make sure filtration is efficient and that all the nutrients are spread evenly and effectively around the tank.


----------



## YzemaN (1 Sep 2010)

Here's a bit of info from Tropica's website:
TROPICA PLANT NUTRITION+
They recommend 5 mL per 50 L water weekly at water change. But once you get started I suggest watching your plants. They'll let you know if something's amiss.
And please note the _"...if algae growth starts, PLANT NUTRITION+ liquid will promote this growth"_, so remove the infected leaves and do a 50% water change every time you change anything in the tank


----------



## ukco2guy (1 Sep 2010)

@ Lairewen - Hi, yes, if you can get to Shirley Aquatics in Yarnton (oxford) they have a good selection of plants, ferts etc. Though i thought their was a Maindenhead Aquatics or similar closer to you in Berkshire, i think Reading has a store.

Cheers,


----------



## Lisa_Perry75 (1 Sep 2010)

Bobtastic said:
			
		

> The point that everyone is making is that to prevent algae attacks you need to create a balance between Light, and Nutrients (including Co2)



This isn't contradictory at all bobtastic, and yes a balance between these three is the key. Very hard to achieve! Fish waste can provide ferts


----------



## Lairewen (1 Sep 2010)

The Goldfish Bowl is the one I'm planning to go to - I don't drive and it seems accessible from the train station. There is a MA in Bracknell, but since I'm going to Oxford anyway I thought I'd have a look there first.


----------



## fluffiebugie (2 Sep 2010)

Lisa_Perry75 said:
			
		

> This isn't contradictory at all bobtastic, and yes a balance between these three is the key. Very hard to achieve! Fish waste can provide ferts



Absolutely. I have a nano that's been on autopilot for about two years, no ferts and no CO2. I lost all shrimps recently and so Algae is creeping in a little. But other than that it's been fine and supports various plants fantastically.
Obviously that's simply down to the waste in the bottom, as I rarely touch the gravel unless it becomes unsightly in the front.
Just doing regualr water changes is enough for that tank.


----------



## GreenNeedle (2 Sep 2010)

I am leaning towards Bob's way of thinking here.  Yes ferts need to contain N and P.  No-one disputes that BUT lets look at the particular tanks in question.

-They are both running on stock lighting at a reasonably low level.
-They are both run with a good photoperiod length of 8 hours.
-They are both stocked.

What I can't understand from the posts so far is why everyone is rushing to say ferts are even needed and then to boot that CO2 is needed.

If CO2 or liquid carbon is added then yes ferts will be most definately needed.  However will they without added C?

I would suggest maybe a little N and P but if these are stocked tanks with fish that are fed and have water changes to boot then for low light non CO2 then there should be next to zero problems on ferts.

Secondly in that picture we can see that there aren't many plants.  There should be ample nutrient from the fish waste and excess food for the quanitiy of plantmass in there.

Noone seems to have commented on the large gravel size.

From my view the first thing I notice is that filter.  Looks pretty tiny to me and I would suggest that the circulation from it is not too clever either.  Positioning is not so good right down at the substrate.

I think that people are jumping in with hi tec principles where this is clearly a low tech tank.  Yes maintenance could help the situation because that filter is clearly not keeping up BUT giving the substrate (gravel) a thorough cleaning each water change is just meaning that the nutrient that was there is being pulled out and therefore needs replacing.  Seems a little pointless to me.  I would just take the gravel vac attachment off the top and wave the pipe over the substrate to remove the loose stuff.  Leave the substrate undisturbed.

I wouldn't add CO2.  It just means that you instantly speed things up on a tank you are struggling with anyway. It would also mean you would then need to add ferts and mean maintenance increases in necessity.  We should be helping you with your situation rather than turning your tank into our situation and then dealing with it in our 'comfort zone'.

Lastly I think you will struggle with algae until you get more plants in there.  A few plants at the rear and a couple of algae balls isn't exactly what we guys would call a planted tank.  technically it is of course as it has plants in it.  However the principles we use for a 'planted tank' are more applicable to a heavily planted. tank

In summary yes plants need N, P, K trace and C plus flow but lets sort the problem out and not advise someone to turn their slow problem into a high speed mess.

I must say that on a lot of the forums I frequent there seems to be this sudden leaning towards liquid C as a necessity.  People seem to have forgotten about equilibrium and running a tank without CO2 can be done quite easily and with some good results to boot!!!  Liquid C is not a cure all and for a tank in trouble not due to highlight is just a pointless exercise in my opinion. It just means that the tank was going downhill slowly.  Now it is going to fall off a cliff.

AC


----------



## Lisa_Perry75 (2 Sep 2010)

Fair enough Andy, but if you read the stocking levels its
30L tank - 1 male betta
30L tank - 1 male betta and some pygmy cories (not sure how many)
Considering this I would consider stocking levels to be low and therefore not much ferts being supplied as waste. Also the OP mentions that the plants don't grow and that she has a tight budget.
Based on that I thought:
Some (agreed not masses, just minimal dosing) TPN+ would rule out any deficiencies for the plants. Gluteraldehyde (in excel) helps plant growth and we know it can kill some algae, thought that would also help the situation. I did think some more plants to boost biomass would be good but depends on the budget. We have only seen a picture of one tank, so no idea planting density there.
You know more about low tech balance than me, what do you think would best help the OP?


----------



## Bobtastic (2 Sep 2010)

Lairewen are the tanks sat in a bright area? If they are in direct sunlight this could compound algae problems.

Had it been stated the wattage of the lights being used?

You can get some nice Java Ferns from most fish shops (make sure they have roots or u're basically buying dying leaves) and tie them to your wood. Make sure the roots aren't pushed into the substrate.

 SuperColey1 my low tech tank has pea gravel and it seems to be doing ok.


----------



## dw1305 (2 Sep 2010)

Hi all,


> ....... I think that people are jumping in with hi tec principles where this is clearly a low tech tank. Yes maintenance could help the situation because that filter is clearly not keeping up BUT giving the substrate (gravel) a thorough cleaning each water change is just meaning that the nutrient that was there is being pulled out and therefore needs replacing. Seems a little pointless to me. I would just take the gravel vac attachment off the top and wave the pipe over the substrate to remove the loose stuff. Leave the substrate undisturbed. I wouldn't add CO2. It just means that you instantly speed things up on a tank you are struggling with anyway. It would also mean you would then need to add ferts and mean maintenance increases in necessity. We should be helping you with your situation rather than turning your tank into our situation and then dealing with it in our 'comfort zone'.......


I'd certainly agree with the whole quoted post, it covers the points I would have made. 

I know I'm in a minority here, but I strongly believe that  heavily planted, low tech. tanks,  with some bio-film development are much more stable and easier to handle for the majority of aquarists.

cheers Darrel


----------



## GreenNeedle (2 Sep 2010)

Lisa_Perry75 said:
			
		

> Fair enough Andy, but if you read the stocking levels its
> 30L tank - 1 male betta
> 30L tank - 1 male betta and some pygmy cories (not sure how many)
> Considering this I would consider stocking levels to be low and therefore not much ferts being supplied as waste. Also the OP mentions that the plants don't grow and that she has a tight budget.
> ...



As I said.  Probably the filter.  The tank MAY ned some extra ferts BUT we shouldn't be suggesting that the OP 'speeds things up' by adding Excel.  That will only makes things worse.

Circulation is not as big an issue with low tech.  I sort of knew it and George pushed me to go down to just the filter.  however it still needs to be 'enough' and possibly needs cleaning more often than the hi tec if going the full on no water change route.

However I am not suggesting no water changes.

That little filter doesn't look much cop to me.  I have a 200lph external (One of those Â£20 Boyus) on my 10ltr!!!

My larger tank just has the Eheim now but still nearly 6x turnover.

If the OP adds liquid fertiliser then I can foresee yet another person giving up on getting algae free.
Spot dose maybe but thats it.

Now think about the stocking.  Yes 1 Betta.  Dose that apply?  The Op is doing water changes.  The OP is replenishing nutrient with tap water content.  There are your ferts.  Stocking with that amount of plants would only be relevant on a no water change setup.  So stocking does not apply in this case.

Basically I spoke from seeing the pic, reading the OP post and then applying my understanding to the particular tank in question.  Yes most of the people are giving sound advice for most situations, but then this tank is not heavily planted, high light etc.

And yes to the OP above pea gravel can be succesful but most people with standard gravel also tend to be those that are ramming a vac into it and disturbing the substrate continuously.  There are exceptions of course so not everyone 

AC


----------



## Lairewen (2 Sep 2010)

Hello all, quick reply since I'm on a train! Apologies if I miss anything.
I forgot to post tank 2, must do that later. It has a few more plants and about 2 inches of substrate.

Neither tank is in a particuarly high light area. Tank 1 is on my desk under a shelf, tank 2 is in the living room, which is naturally dim due to the position of the house.

The filter is an eheim pickup... the positioning isnt intentional, the sucker pads have gone and I need replacements. However I am reluctant to increase the flow too much as bettas don't do well with  a strong current. 

I will check the light wattage when I get home. 

Is it worth me getting any more plants, or am I better to wait until I sort these ones out?

I really appreciate all the advice.


----------



## Lisa_Perry75 (2 Sep 2010)

Perhaps hold fire on getting more plants for today. Keep an eye open on the classified section as sometimes when people are trimming their plants they tend to offer them cheap to UKAPS members. Have a look at your budget and let us know if you have any funds for perhaps uprating your filter.

Ah yes Andy, tbh when I had a low tech tank running for 3 years I had a fluval 104 then a 204 so I didn't think about circulation.


----------



## Lairewen (2 Sep 2010)

OK, as promised, here is tank two. 






I couldn't get the ferts suggested, so I got some easy carbo instead. I also got new sucker pads, so I can get my filter in a better position! I will look at upgrading... maybe in a month or two if I can find one the betta can cope with.


----------



## nry (2 Sep 2010)

Good comments on planting, I struggled with algae recently until I added more plants - plants take up ammonia quickly leaving less for the algae to use 

Ammonia = algae so less ammonia = less algae


----------



## Mark Evans (2 Sep 2010)

nry said:
			
		

> Ammonia = algae so less ammonia = less algae



shouldn't that read, ammonia + light =...I always believe that light is the trigger in the big gun   

I could be talking tosh mind you.


----------



## nry (2 Sep 2010)

Ammonia without light is going to be different, but Tom Barr kind of made it clear that ammonia is the algae trigger above other things.


----------



## Lairewen (2 Sep 2010)

Can I assume it's very small amounts of ammonia that cause it? My tests always come out as 0, but I know there's always some, just too low to register.


----------



## Mark Evans (2 Sep 2010)

nry said:
			
		

> but Tom Barr kind of made it clear that ammonia is the algae trigger above other things.



so how come in amazonia 2 set ups that i've done, i've not had algae? even though it was present....light is the trigger imo.

if co2 and ferts don't match light, then bang!


----------



## JamesM (2 Sep 2010)

Tbh, that last tank looks under maintained and past the point of saving. Plants aren't healthy, and they wont recover. A thorough clean and new plants would be recommended. A short light period and good maintenance is the key to any tank ime.


----------



## Lairewen (2 Sep 2010)

Fair enough. I am really embarassed by them - if I wasn't desperate to get it sorted I would have been ashamed to post the pics. (Actually, I still am...)


----------



## JamesM (2 Sep 2010)

Lairewen said:
			
		

> Fair enough. I am really embarassed by them - if I wasn't desperate to get it sorted I would have been ashamed to post the pics. (Actually, I still am...)


No, don't be  We all have to start somewhere, and the pics are helpful for others who are in the same boat


----------



## GreenNeedle (3 Sep 2010)

nry said:
			
		

> Ammonia without light is going to be different, but Tom Barr kind of made it clear that ammonia is the algae trigger above other things.



I think you misread Tom a little here.

Tom will suggest CO2 is the problem in 95% of cases.NOw from there you can basically assume the factors to rule out which are causing the CO2 to be a problem will be light first.

Ammonia is the algae trigger BUT only if the circumstances are good for algae.  If ammonia was the main problem  then there would be no such thing as a virtually algae free non CO2 no water change tank like mine 

So first look at CO2 then work out why CO2 is not good enough.  It can be nothing to do with CO2 itself and something else that renders the CO2 a problem.

AC


----------



## Lairewen (3 Sep 2010)

OK, so my plan right now is:

Increase water changes to weekly or twice weekly. 
Clean the filter pads monthly. 
Reduce light to 6 hours a day.
Dose with easy carbo daily.
Dose with ferts daily once I get them. 

How does that sound?


----------



## Tom (3 Sep 2010)

Sounds much better to me


----------



## dw1305 (3 Sep 2010)

Hi all,
Lairewen wrote 





> Fair enough. I am really embarrassed by them - if I wasn't desperate to get it sorted I would have been ashamed to post the pics.


 after this quote had been posted,  





> bh, that last tank looks under maintained and past the point of saving. Plants aren't healthy, and they wont recover.


Lairewen there is no reason to feel embarrassed at all, and I'm sorry but this comment is just totally wrong, the plants don't look lush and green because they haven't had large amounts of macro- nutrients, there is nothing else "wrong" with them at all. In my opinion a lot of what has been posted on this thread is in-appropriate advice, your plants lack macro-nutrients, that is all that is "wrong" with them.

 I think that your "to do" list in the last post is a good one:

Increase water changes to weekly or twice weekly.
Clean the filter pads monthly.
Reduce light to 6 hours a day.
Dose with easy carbo daily.
Dose with ferts daily once I get them.

Personally I would ditch the liquid carbon, and start with a very low nutrient addition. In your case the first addition I would make would be to add some KNO3 (potassium nitrate), and my suspicion would be that your plants will show a very quick response to this in terms of both growth and colour.  Use the calculator on "James' Planted Tank" (<http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/calculator.htm>), and aim for about 5 ppm N (for example 1/2 of a teaspoon of KNO3 in a 100 litre tank would supply 12ppmK & 18ppm NO3 (this is 5ppm N)). 

Over time you may feel that plant growth would be increased by  the addition of more nutrients (I'll include light (PAR) and CO2 in this), and once you used to "normal" plant growth, you can start manipulating these 3 elements. 

I want healthy plant growth, but much more than that I want a stable, resilient tank environment. In fact I welcome some algae and biofilm, it is an entirely natural part of the aquatic environment.

cheers Darrel


----------



## GreenNeedle (3 Sep 2010)

Personallly I would clean internal filters weekly.  Need to keep what circulation you can.  I used to do my internal weekly before I got an external and that was a much higher capacity. In fact it was the same turnover as my external however which much smaller media capacity I found that even weekly they were pretty dirty.

AC


----------



## Lairewen (3 Sep 2010)

I've found 100ml of TPN+ on ebay for about Â£7, so I'll get that ASAP if it really is THE one to go with. Probably in a week or two. I should have a slightly more flexible budget then. 

Glad my to-do list seems suitable - there are naturally a lot of different suggestions here, I'm just trying to work out what is best and most practical for me. I think I will try to save what plants I can - if they're still green then I'm prepared to replant and hope!

Out of curiosity, when I do eventually get new plants, are there any 'bullet-proof' plants you'd suggest to rebuild my plant-growing confidence?


----------



## dw1305 (3 Sep 2010)

Hi Lairewen,
Most of the "low light" plants are fairly hardy, this is because they can maintain fairly slow growth in low light/low nutrient conditions and in many cases don't show much response to increasing levels of light or nutrients. Many of them are fairly dull green.

Plants that fulfil this requirement are _Anubias_ spp., most ferns and mosses, some _Cryptocoryne_ spp., some Echinodorus spp. and a lot of floating or emergent plants, these have access to aerial CO2, and so are not growth limited by dissolved CO2 levels. I just had a look in the shrimp tanks (very limited maintenance, no CO2 and extremely lean NPK), and they both have various mosses, _Cryptcoryne wendtii, Potomageton gayii, Microsorum pteropus_, emergent _Hygrophila corymbosa_ and a _Ceratopteris sp_., the larger tank also has an _Echinodorus spp., a Nymphaea, Cabomba carolina_ (we use this in the lab., and it requires higher light than the other mentioned) and some _Ceratophyllum_. 

Both tanks have  layer of floaters, _Salvinia "auriculata", Pistia, Lemna minor_ and _Limnobium laevigatum_. The first and last are indestructible, but the _Lemna_ reacts poorly to lower nutrients, and the _Pistia_ would benefit from higher light and more nutrients. I use the "Lemna index" for fertilisation, if the _Lemna_ is very pale green and visibly declining, I need to add fertiliser.

See what grows from the tanks you already have,  and then PM me when you are ready and I'll donate some/all of the above plants to you.

cheers Darrel


----------



## a1Matt (3 Sep 2010)

Lairewen said:
			
		

> there are naturally a lot of different suggestions here, I'm just trying to work out what is best and most practical for me.



My two cents is that the comments from Andy (SuperColey) and Darrel are spot on and I would bear those in mind when formulating your plan of attack.



			
				Lairewen said:
			
		

> I've found 100ml of TPN+ on ebay for about Â£7, so I'll get that ASAP if it really is THE one to go with. Probably in a week or two. I should have a slightly more flexible budget then.


Dry ferts give you greater control and flexibility in your nutrient dosing, but you have buy the 'ingredients' separately and work out how to dose them. 
If you do go for a commercial fertiliser, then yes TPN+ is the best one to get. (not standard TPN).


----------



## nry (3 Sep 2010)

TPN+ is Â£6.95 from www.aquaessentials.co.uk for reference.


----------



## Mark Evans (3 Sep 2010)

a1Matt said:
			
		

> My two cents is that the comments from Andy (SuperColey) and Darrel are spot on and I would bear those in mind when formulating your plan of attack.



 look like I'm talking rubbish then. 

Lairewen, ignore what i've put, it doesn't work...apparently


----------



## Lairewen (3 Sep 2010)

Wow, thank you! 

I'm going to prune later... get rid of all the definitely dead stuff to hopefully give the remainer the best chance.


********

I will probably go for the TPN+ for now, at least until I get a better grasp of how it all works!


*******

LOL you're doing better than me!


----------



## Lisa_Perry75 (3 Sep 2010)

dw1305 said:
			
		

> Lairewen there is no reason to feel embarrassed at all


I also agree with this comment, your betta have lovely big tanks to swim around in! I've seen them in much much worse (pint glasses).

With the filter pads perhaps check them as you are doing the weekly water change. If you use a bucket then just pop the internal in that with the water you're taking out. Take a gander at the sponges/media. If it looks really clogged then maybe just give it a few squeezes or a quick swoosh in the water. If it doesn't look that dirty after a week then maybe check the week after. Then you have a bit more of an idea if it needs doing weekly, fortnightly or monthly.

Unfortunately as you can see many people do things different ways as they have worked for them. There is no one set way to do things. Rather than turning into a bit of an advice 'war' I hope that we can find some common ground to best help the OP. Also you might realise that UKAPS is a friendly place and everyone wants the best advice that will help you fastest and make your tank work for you   

What do people think about gravel vaccing? Is it useful to remove waste this which will provide ammonia which might feed algae or leave it to break down and turn into more ferts?

Edit: ps when checking the filter please unplug it with dry hands before you pull it out of the tank. I know you would do this anyway, just thought I'd mention *just in case*


----------



## Lairewen (3 Sep 2010)

Oh, nothing sets me off like seeing bettas in undersized, unfiltered, unheated 'tanks.' I wonder how anyone can think it's ok. 

Good idea, thanks. 

Everyone's been great - lots of different opinions, but no rudeness at all. Really glad I registered - you're stuck with me now.  

LOL the worst I did was *thinking* I'd unplugged the heater and I hadn't...


----------



## Tom (3 Sep 2010)

> Oh, nothing sets me off like seeing bettas in undersized, unfiltered, unheated 'tanks.' I wonder how anyone can think it's ok.



Have you seen how they're shipped to shops from Singapore etc? The bag is about 2.5" square, and the water barely covers their bodies.


----------



## ukco2guy (3 Sep 2010)

@ Tom - That just grinds my gears   It`s all about the money and no thought or care about the livestock.. Grrrr...


----------



## Lairewen (3 Sep 2010)

I have, it's awful. It's both a blessing and a curse that they're such hardy fish. There are more UK based breeders these days, but I'm sure the vast majority of tropical fish in general are still shipped from abroad.


----------



## ukco2guy (3 Sep 2010)

My pair of betta`s here are from The water gardens in hinton parva (swindon). Great selection and they take very good care of their livestock


----------



## GreenNeedle (3 Sep 2010)

Lisa_Perry75 said:
			
		

> What do people think about gravel vaccing? Is it useful to remove waste this which will provide ammonia which might feed algae or leave it to break down and turn into more ferts?



To my way of thinking the substrate should be left undisturbed if possible.  To disturb it when vacing not only means you can risk releasing lots of stuff into the water column whilst vaccing but also you are just taking awway ferts and then adding them back in later.

In a hi tec tank you wouldn't vac, maybe clean the surface.  I see no reason why in a lo tec you would do any different.

Also in a hi tec tank you are adding ferts anyway.  In a lo tec it is not necessarily the case that you need to.

I think the ammonia trigger is a little overplayed in this thread.  Yes it is the trigger  but only when the situation is right.  A little like the liquid C cure for algae.  It cures a symptom not the cause.  Remove the algae ideal situation and the ammonia trigger is rendered inactive if you know what I mean   If it were purely a case of the ammonia being a trigger then we would all have algae without doing water changes every day.

No problem with curing a symptom as long as the cause is looked into whilst doing so.  It is often harder to find that cause while the symptoms are not there!!!  Therefore in my opinion it would be better to take the hit, suffer whilst searching but find the grail sooner.

AC


----------



## Mark Evans (3 Sep 2010)

SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> If it were purely a case of the ammonia being a trigger then we would all have algae without doing water changes every day.



precisely!


----------



## Lairewen (3 Sep 2010)

The shop I went to yesterday had a stunning selection, but I have no idea where they came from. A couple even looked like they might have the dragon gene. 

OK, one maintinance session and a very unimpressed betta later, this is the state of tank 2. I lightly tugged on each plant... if it came up, it went. The brown algae is still covering everything, but the dead plants are gone. I did a 50% water change and cleaned the filter pad in the old water.


----------



## Burnleygaz (4 Sep 2010)

i might of missed it , but i can`t see where anyone has mentioned manual removal of as much algae as possible , daily would be best but as often as you can will suffice.

If it can be removed from the tank (Hardscape like rocks or wood, and any equipment) get it in some warm water and use an old toothbrush or similar and scrub every thing well. Plant wise , a lot of alage will come off with some light pressure from your fingers, a toothbrush is good for hair algae (twirl it up like spaggeti) and more sutbborm types like GSA you`ll have to remove the affected leaf.


Give all the glass a good scrub aswell, then do your water change and try and run your siphon tube near any of the substrate that has algae on it (sometimes helps to creat some movment with your hands to dislodge any loose alage/waste)

Doing it before the water change is very important as you will remove most of the waste you`ve just created by cleaning, otherwise it will just sit in your tank rotting adding to your problems.


----------



## Lairewen (6 Sep 2010)

I'd never have thought to get algae off like that! Thanks for the tips!

Quick question... tank one only has about an inch of pea gravel - thinner in some spots. Is it worth getting more to make it easier for the plants to root?


----------



## Spang (6 Sep 2010)

Just thought I'd add as I am in the Oxford area. The Gold Fish Bowl is a nice looking shop but it is very expensive, I have found in my experiance their plants aren't good quality. They do have a nice selection of ferts and equipment though. 

I'd suggest ordering your ferts online. 

There is a decent Maidenhead Aquatics in Wheatley just off the M40 at juntion 8A that has a good quality plant tank.


----------



## Lairewen (6 Sep 2010)

It wasn't cheap, I agree with that! Fantastic selection though. There's a MA in Bracknell that I usually use, but I went in there since I was going to Oxford. Although it was quite a hike from the centre! I'm planning to get TPN+ from ebay ASAP.

(LOVE the cute chibi GL btw!)


----------



## ukco2guy (11 Sep 2010)

Hi,

Not sure if anyone else does but when my kids finish their electronic toothbrushes i grab them for tank cleaning. I don`t have major issues but i do get the odd spot on the glass and also rocks (i can get to all the crevices) and a couple of seconds with a electronic toothbrush works miracles and it has so far never scratched the glass  On my newest tank i have had a bit of brown algae appearing on the sides, again a couple of seconds with the electronic toothbrush and it`s completely gone. It`s saved us alot of time cleaning.

Shop wise if you get a chance try Shirley Aquatics in Yarnton (just outside oxford) and my favourite Water Gardens in Swindon 

@ Spang - Where is goldfish bowl shop? Never seen it and i`m in Oxford in the next couple of weeks 

Hope this helps.

Cheers,


----------



## Spang (14 Sep 2010)

ukco2guy said:
			
		

> Hi,
> @ Spang - Where is goldfish bowl shop? Never seen it and i`m in Oxford in the next couple of weeks
> 
> Cheers,



It's on Magdelen Road. Between Iffley and Cowley Road.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=OX4+1RQ ... 62,,0,7.68

It's a very impressive looking shop. If you are into marine they probably have the biggest species selection in Oxfordshire. They do have an amazing selection of fish though even for tropical. They have quite a big plant tank but I always find the plant's aren't the best quality although I have seen much worse ( the best thing about the plant tank is, that it is on eye level rather than down low ). They also stock a massive selection of dry goods, and have a mass of nice wood ( the wood is very pricey though ). Their website : http://www.thegoldfishbowl.co.uk/

The best lfs I have found in Oxford for plants is the Maidenhead in Wheatley just outside oxford close to junction 8A but it is probably on par with any big Maidenhead store.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&sourc ... 78,,0,7.85

Hope this helps


----------



## Lisa_Perry75 (14 Sep 2010)

Just wanted to re-iterate the sentiments expressed. As an example one percula clownfish (yes nemo) pair in maidenhead aquatics near me is Â£40. The goldfish bowl was Â£100! Although saying that the place does have loads of tanks set up so is very good for inspiration.


----------



## Tom (14 Sep 2010)

Â£40 a pair for Perculas?? Even that's rediculous!!!


----------



## Lairewen (14 Sep 2010)

They are definitely expensive! Their bettas *started* at Â£14.99! However they had the best selection I have *ever* seen. I looked at the plants, but even moss balls were nearly Â£5. 

By the way, tank 2 is slowly improving, but I think tank 1 is too underplanted to really compete with the algae, so I may get a couple of cheap plants to bulk it out.


----------



## Lisa_Perry75 (14 Sep 2010)

Don't forget Darrels offer


----------



## Lairewen (15 Sep 2010)

I haven't, but I feel I need to put a bit more effort in first! 

Here is tank 2 in its current state:


----------



## nayr88 (16 Sep 2010)

Looks tons better!! Or should I say betta ! Haha I couldn't resist 

Mine hated cherry shrimp and amano's but doesn't even notice otto's if you could get one I bet he would make light work of that algae on the filter.

What substrate is that it looks very 'earthy'?   

Have you ordered your TPN+? There's a 250ml bottle with postage going for Â£7.00 in the forsale thread.


----------



## Lairewen (16 Sep 2010)

I haven't yet - should have the funds in a couple of days though. I'll have a look - this is my 25th post, so I should be able to access that section now or very soon. So far the improvement has just been from easycarbo and leaf zone... figured I may as well use them up while I was waiting. So hopefully the TPN+ will really improve things. I think the betta likes it better.  Otos sound good... I've been thinking of adding to that tank anyway. I could probably get away with three.

The substrate is eco-complete and given the price of the stuff, I've been very disappointed.


----------



## nayr88 (16 Sep 2010)

Yeah its a good thread to have access to haha. How many liters of eco complete did you use? Do u cap it?


----------



## Lairewen (17 Sep 2010)

I just used the whole bag... maybe that was a mistake?


----------



## Lairewen (26 Sep 2010)

Still improving... the newer plants were taken from tank 1, which I've decided definitely needs more gravel.... I cleaned it yesterday and the slightest disruption unroots everything. But at least tank 2 is getting there and the algae is now food for three otos.


----------



## a1Matt (27 Sep 2010)

It is really coming along now


----------



## Lairewen (28 Sep 2010)

Thanks!

I missed out on the TPN on the sale forum, but still intend to get some. 

I suspect this thread has now run it's course, but it's been SO educational.


----------

