# BBA in Low Light tank



## 2pods (5 Mar 2015)

I have an Interpet Fishpod 120L I've been running for over five years. It has a variety of low/med light plants, gravel, and Mopani wood, which were doing well over all this time, being fed 5ml Neutro daily, along with half a cap of Neutro CO2 daily. Weekly water change is 30-40%. Filter is a Tetra-Tec EX700. I've recently added a couple of internal mini filters to help flow and have handy just in case . The lights are inbuilt 15w PFs which have always been on for 12 hours.

All this was well with 8 rummy noses, 6 albino corys, 12 Otos, and about 20 cherry shrimp. I had to thin out the plants on a weekly basis, it was going that good. That's one of the reasons I haven't been on for ages.

It was like a switch going on. BBA in industrial quantities. I've tried 50% water changes rightly or wrongly to no avail. The only things that have changed is that I've stopped using a Purigen filter a good few months ago and have added 12 more rummy noses. Oh, and I'm now plagued with MTS (overfeeding ?)  and there is a film on the surface like oil, which I assume is the ferts etc not dispersing properly ?

Deep woe.......


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## EnderUK (6 Mar 2015)

MTS is overfeeding, the tetras I would probably feed a little so no food falls to the bottom. The cory get a good quality sinking pellet try one and see how long it last, don't be temped to feed more. Oto I like to ue a slice of pepper which I leave in for a couple of days, there's other veg you can feed them. Don't bother trying to feed the cherries, there's enough food in the tank for them already.

Ramshorn snails over time can tackle BBA in a low tech tank or you can try spot treatment with liquid carbon at low dosage as there's reports that otos aren't keen on the stuff.


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## 2pods (6 Mar 2015)

Thanks I'll try cutting the feeding down. I think you're right. That's what could have done it.
Unfortunately I think my plants are too far gone, so may have to clear them.


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## MirandaB (7 Mar 2015)

As EnderUK said you're overfeeding which will be contributing to the problem and also your stocking might be a bit on the high side.
I also suspect that the filter is probably on the small side so won't be helping either as it's rated for 250lts but as we all know filter specs are in reality much lower than then manufacturers state.
I've been having a minor but persistent BBA problem in a low tech tank which I'm experimenting on in different ways to deal with it.
I've drastically cut ferts back as I was dosing more than the plants actually required,cleaning the filter/pipes every 2 weeks,manually removing any from plants and now do only 25% water changes weekly.
With the water changes I use 50/50 RO/tapwater as my water is ridiculously hard and the tapwater is allowed to stand to hopefully gas off the co2 which is naturally dissolved in it.
I then do water changes in the evening when the lights are off to try and avoid the fluctuating co2 levels.
Whether or not others will think I'm doing the right thing it seems to be working for me


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## 2pods (7 Mar 2015)

I'm going to cut the ferts in half too, to see if there is any change.
I suspected the filter was under specced.
Serves me right. I should have stuck with a Rena like my last tank, as that was as good as it's publicity blurb. I'll try and change it as soon as some spare loot appears.


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## Another Phil (7 Mar 2015)

Hi 2Pods,
Sorry to hear your woes.





2pods said:


> and there is a film on the surface like oil, which I assume is the ferts etc not dispersing properly ?


I think the surface film could be protein build-up from incomplete breakdown of uneaten food, plant and fauna waste, etc. Another sign is if surface bubbles take a long time to pop. - I tend to think of it as the sticky bits that hold life together, and therefore a sign of a problem starting.

A problem you might be having is low oxygen. as the snails, shrimp and extra fish as well as plants at night all use it and it is also essential for the filter bacteria, with the surface film itself tending to act as a barrier to oxygen exchange.
I'd try to temporarily give a lot of surface agitation - enough to be quite noisy for  a while - and see if the situation improves.
cheers phil


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## Matt Warner (7 Mar 2015)

Definately ease off on the amount you feed the fish. You could also try adding liquid carbon to your tank which should help get rid of the algae that you have.


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## 2pods (8 Mar 2015)

2pods said:


> along with half a cap of Neutro CO2 daily


 Will do.
As you can see, I already have the liquid C02 going


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## ADA (8 Mar 2015)

Odd that you get massive amounts of BBA while massively overdosing Neutro CO2, I think the Neutro CO2 is rated at 5ml per 250L, your dosing half a cup? Water changes done during photo period? Only ask as some tap water can contain massive CO2 amounts and BBA is caused by fluctuating CO2 levels.


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## kirk (9 Mar 2015)

Would it be worth cutting the 12 hr lighting down for a bit too.


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## 2pods (9 Mar 2015)

Weekly water change of 30% as recommended for Neutro. Will cut lighting to 8 hours ?
It's always been the same tap water and I've only had this for a few months.
Tank has been totally stable for two or three years with no discernible algae (though there must have been some, as my Otos survive)


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## 2pods (1 Jun 2015)

Totally fed up and ready to give up. Shrimp have disappeared (pH -6 not good for their shells maybe ?).
Been dosing 2.5ml Neutro and Neutro C02. Plants have had it, even the spray bar has it on seemingly in  the holes the water comes out !
Time for the weekly water change. If it wasn't for the fish, I would just dismantle it.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not as wise as about 75% of the people here, but I've run tanks for nearly ten years both pressurised and not with good results. I can't get back into the pressurised Co2, as I can't source it locally, can't afford it, and this tank needs to be low tech, but I'm stumped.


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## dw1305 (1 Jun 2015)

Hi all, 





2pods said:


> Totally fed up and ready to give up.


 Do you have a high plant mass? 

I always have a few tufts of BBA, but it never seems to spread. A suggestion is that a large plant mass reduces BBA. The reason for this isn't known, but it may be a shading effect. I also have Red Ramshorn snails which browse algal sporelings.

I run the tanks on a 12 hour day with a variety of lighting, all low tech, and low nutrient levels, but they are full of plants. 




 

cheers Darrel


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## Iain Sutherland (1 Jun 2015)

i nearly always find bba follows surface film.  Bit of a chicken egg thing but i suspect that the lack of gas exchange on the surface due to oily film which can be for numerous reasons, overfeeding being one, causes the fluctuating co2 hence the bba....

Dont give up, direct dose liquid co2 to the bba during the upped water changes (if you need to dose a lot then dillute it 50% so it does further, just be aware moss, vals and anubias react badly to this) if the surface film persists with reduced feeding either increase surface agitation or investing in an eheim surface skim (£20) is a cheat solution.

Stick at it fella, if youve had no issues for a few years then having a few weeks of battling now is a pretty good return on a hobby you enjoy


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## 2pods (2 Jun 2015)

Thanks for the replies.
I do usually have floating plants, but the design of the hood  on this  tank makes this hard to do.
Have cut lighting to 8 hours, cut back on the feeding, and am now dosing no Neutro, but two caps of Neutro Co2.
The plants that are left are all common stems, Echs, Swords, and Crypts. Nothing good


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## dw1305 (2 Jun 2015)

Hi all,





2pods said:


> and am now dosing no Neutro, but two caps of Neutro Co2.


There isn't any point in adding extra inorganic carbon if you are short of the other essential plant nutrients.

I think I'm right that <"Neutro T"> contains just trace elements, these are essential for plant growth, but only in trace amounts (they are also referred to as "micro-nutrients").

After carbon, out of the  three macro-nutrients plants require about 10x more nitrogen (N) and potassium (K) than they do phosphorus (P), and they require considerably more phosphorus than any of the other elements.

Plant growth deficiencies are likeliest to be either N or K, purely via the "numbers game".

I use floating plant health (floating leaves have access 400ppm CO2, which removes CO2 deficiency from the equation) as an indicator of when to feed the plants, but you can just as easily dose a low level of EI (1/10 dose) or a complete fertilizer containing both macro and micro-elements. Because you have gravel it won't contain, or exchange, many nutrients, so your plants are reliant on the ions in the water column.

When I started using the "Duckweed Index" I added the nutrients one at a time (mainly as salts, so in some cases it was both anion and cation). But I pretty quickly found that for me the most likely deficiencies were K or N (I added KNO3) or magnesium (Mg).

If I'd added KNO3 and MgSO4.7H20, and there wasn't a fairly instant greening I just went straight to a complete plant fertilizer. I usually use an "off the shelf" liquid plant feed (I buy what ever is remaindered in <"Wilkos etc"> at the end of the summer), but this does have a risk to your life-stock because they will contain ammonia (NH3).

cheers Darrel


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## 2pods (3 Jun 2015)

I'm using Neutro C02 more as an algaecide 
I was also using the "normal" Neutro, not Neutro T.


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## dw1305 (3 Jun 2015)

Hi all,





2pods said:


> I'm using Neutro C02 more as an algaecide


 OK. I know people use Excel etc for this purpose. 





2pods said:


> I was also using the "normal" Neutro, not Neutro T.


 Better, it was just in your first post you said 





2pods said:


> It has a variety of low/med light plants, gravel, and Mopani wood, which were doing well over all this time, being fed 5ml Neutro T daily, along with half a cap of Neutro CO2 daily.


 I'd still try adding some potassium nitrate (KNO3) to see if you get a quick greening response (both elements are mobile within the plant, so they will be transported to new leaves etc.) and then I'd buy a complete mix from <"one of our sponsors">, it will work out very cheap in the long run.

If you wanted to see if it is a magnesium deficiency "Epsom Salts" are cheap to buy and magnesium is also mobile, so the same would apply as N & K, a fairly rapid greening response.

cheers Darrel


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## 2pods (4 Jun 2015)

Guilty as charged 
I'll change it now.


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## parotet (13 Jun 2015)

Hi Darrel

How often do you need to fertilize your tanks (more or less....)? I'm guessing for some comments I've read in other threads it is not too often, which it's something amazing because the biomass I've seen in your tanks is incredible and the amount of nutrients so low... Do they adapt to oligotrophic conditions  under low light or do you think plants are they obtaining the nutrients from the substrate/mulm's nutrient breakdown?

And what about your water changes? I think you change a small volume but quite frequently, isn't it?

Jordi


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## dw1305 (14 Jun 2015)

Hi all,





parotet said:


> How often do you need to fertilize your tanks (more or less....)?


Less and less frequently. I don't know why. 





parotet said:


> do you think plants are they obtaining the nutrients from the substrate/mulm's nutrient breakdown?


 This would be my suspicion. 





parotet said:


> And what about your water changes? I think you change a small volume but quite frequently, isn't it?


 Yes about 10% a day, more for the smaller tanks. 

I'll take some photos, but the 60l tank in the kitchen has been largely undisturbed for about 5 years. It has quite a thick layer of fine sediment in the areas with low flow, and over time all the gravel (the substrate was about 90:10 sand:gravel) has migrated  to the top of the sediment in the other half of the tank. I haven't fed it at all for the last year, and it is basically full of plants.

cheers Darrel


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