# Suitable return pump



## brycie1978 (20 Oct 2012)

Hope theres somebody with a bit of experience on this

I'm getting a new tank made after my last 1 burst   , it's a 5 2 2 foot with 35 mm tubing I'm sure, I just asked the guy to drill the tank for the most popular sized tubing so I wouldn't be sittin with a tank I couldn't get tubing for & the unit will be a standard size unit probably 3 or 4 feet return to the main tank, what size return pump do you think I would be best with I've been looking on the internet & get the impression that the 10 times turnover is only really for reef aquariums but everybody seems to have different opinions on turnover.

I know tank's with a sump are mainly for reef aquariums but can be used in freshwater too so decided to go with this as it adds water volume & is supposedly a lot easier to maintain & the main reason I've went with this really is to keep heaters & anything else that would normally be in the tank in the sump out of the road, but with all the different opinions online with return pump sizes I thought I would ask on here to see if somebody maybe had the same or simmilar setup.

I put the measurements of the tank into google to find the water volume & it says it would be 542.45 litres, 143.3 U.S gallons but then got the gallons converted to Imperial gallons which would be UK & it has came back 119.322 would a 3000 litre per hour return pump be enough or to much for this tank give or take some loss for the pipework I will be using to get it all hooked up, I'll be looking to use as little bends as possible to save losing to much flow.

Hopefully this has made sense to you & theres somebody out there with a bit of experience with freshwater aquariums & sumps.

Anyway thank's in advance & hopefully with your help I can get myself a decent tank together with some help from you guys.

Cheer's

I also meant to say that the return pump I'm looking at has adjustable flow but would it be enough, obviously if it's to much it an be turned down.


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## steve_bham (20 Oct 2012)

Get s ehiem 5000l an hour pump. Nice and quiet and can be adjust if you think the 5000l is two much. 

You will also lose done turn over due to the head height. Each pump manufacturer has a different loss.


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## foxfish (20 Oct 2012)

We normally recommend a 10 x turn over for planted tanks as a guideline however bear in mind that sumps will burn a lot of gas as the water flows down to the sump it will effectively gas off the C02!
I use grundfos circulating pumps with aqua-turn conversions as they are effectively silent!


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## brycie1978 (21 Oct 2012)

So both answers so far have been 10 times turnover I was lead to believe this was only needed for reef tanks & that 4 or 5 times would be enough in freshwater although I will have co2 in my tank, I was looking at the atomizer or whatever you call it that goes into the output line would this not make much difference or would I still be after 10 x turnover & if so what kind of price range are the 5000 lph, the 3000 lph with adjustable flow is around £58


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## brycie1978 (21 Oct 2012)

I also meant to mention my weir will be central & I will have a spray bar at each end. Would this make any difference???

Wheres ceg lol, he seems to know his stuff on anything to do with aquariums  . HELP!!!


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## foxfish (21 Oct 2012)

I can assure you Ceg is not the only knowledgeable member on this forum! If you want a specific answer from him, you could try a pm   
If you are in a real rush then you just need to read more - every piece of info you want can be found in multiple duplicates on this forum.

Flow is about getting C02 enriched water to every plant in your tank, not blasting over the top or washing around the bottom but in an even constant way that will feed your plants.
The 10 x rule is a guideline, every tank is different but flow is extremely important & more often than not the key to success.
You can find plenty of info about sumps & I would recommend you try the search button because they have both plus & negative points, be prepared to use far more C02 that you would use on a tank powered by an external canister filter!
I have found central overflows work OK but they don't really suit using full length spray bars. having a spray bar either end & a central overflow is not a format I would recommend as this will cause conflicting flow patterns but It might work for you - who knows?
Most sump powered tanks use a corner overflow & either a single return facing down the back of the tank & away from the overflow or a full length spray bar along the back wall.

My advice to you if you go with a sump, would be to first ensure a large C02 bottle & a cheap source of refilling as you will go through it! Then I would revise needle wheel pumps.

PS many reef tanks use between 15 - 30 + x flow depending on the program.


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## ceg4048 (21 Oct 2012)

Hello,
         I would follow foxfish's advice on this. You can have any turnover you want, but our experience reveals that a 10X turnover rating rule of thumb generally keeps us out of trouble. Lots of people use sumps because of the advantages you mentioned, but one has to be aware of the disadvantages and design the sump installation so that it minimizes off-gassing of CO2. See moer in the threads:
http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=8703
http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=10312

Cheers,


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## brycie1978 (21 Oct 2012)

Thank's Guys


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## ian_m (22 Oct 2012)

steve_bham said:
			
		

> You will also lose some turn over due to the head height. Each pump manufacturer has a different loss.


A quick look at the datasheet for the Eheim 5000l/hr pump reveals it will only pump 2400l/hr (reading from their graph @ 1.5m gives 40l/min) to a height of 1.5m. Also be careful as some of these pumps have quite large power consumption, Eheim is 80Watts, which most of this ends up as heat in your water, thus can end up with water too hot. Also 80Watts is £105 a year in electric @ 15p/unit, so might be able to find a lower power but more expensive pump and emd up saving money in the long termp.

This is why the "big boy marine people" who have silly sized tanks, have their sumps/frag trays same level as tank, to get more efficient pumping and also have their pumps not in the water, so the pumps don't over heat the water.  Probably not possible in your case, but hey ho.


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## steve_bham (22 Oct 2012)

ian_m said:
			
		

> steve_bham said:
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The heat the pump gives out will help you save on the heater being on longer! 

Seriously. Unless you want to spend a few hundred quid on a dragon pump which has good head height and low wattage, then worrying about 80w on a large tank isn't worth it. 

My 100g marine tank was costing about 20 - 25 quid a month just on eclectic.


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## brycie1978 (23 Oct 2012)

steve_bham said:
			
		

> A quick look at the datasheet for the Eheim 5000l/hr pump reveals it will only pump 2400l/hr (reading from their graph @ 1.5m gives 40l/min) to a height of 1.5m. Also be careful as some of these pumps have quite large power consumption, Eheim is 80Watts, which most of this ends up as heat in your water, thus can end up with water too hot. Also 80Watts is £105 a year in electric @ 15p/unit, so might be able to find a lower power but more expensive pump and emd up saving money in the long termp.
> 
> This is why the "big boy marine people" who have silly sized tanks, have their sumps/frag trays same level as tank, to get more efficient pumping and also have their pumps not in the water, so the pumps don't over heat the water.  Probably not possible in your case, but hey ho.



All the larger return pumps seem to be 80 watt's plus but if that's whats needed then I suppose we just need to accept it  , but as the last post said with the heat off the pump it would reduce the length of time the heater will be on although I don't think this would make a huge difference.


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## steve_bham (23 Oct 2012)

That's true. Unfortunately big tanks cost more. I remember seeing a post on a marine forum, this guy had a 6 ft marine tank and was running at 50 quid a month just on electric!


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## foxfish (23 Oct 2012)

You do have options - your tank is approx 500l & we are looking for about 5000lph flow within the tank.
However if you had a full length spray bar set up & a nice simple design with little hard-scape to interrupt flow then 7-8 times would be fine.
You could also consider using a smaller sump pump & a separate power filter. The smaller pump would prevent so much gas down the drain & the power filter could power a reactor if you dont want a mist from a needle wheel pump.
Or you could forget the sump & use two big power filters with in line heaters & reactors, still not much kit in the tank that way.
Like I said I use Aqua-turn conversions fitted on grundfos central heating pumps, they have three power setting but still burn the juice at full power!


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