# saintlys "The Henge"



## Mark Evans (15 Jun 2008)

hi everyone,

thanks to aaronorth for directing me to this site.

heres a pic of my current setup at about 9 weeks old.i've been doing this for about 13 months now and enjoy every thing about planted aquariums.
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i currently have oan ongoing journal at tropical fish forums. this is my second attempt at a planted aquarium

here is my first from last year.
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any way, im going for my 3rd scape now ive got the bug.
this is going to replace this...

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it's still in its infancie days, but i can give some early facts an figures.


TANK. 
60 x 30 x 36 OPTIWHITE high clarity from AQUA ESSENTIALS. 1 x aquapad.

LIGHTING,
arcadia 60cm 4 x 24w hot5 luminaire from AE

CO2
presurised with all glass ware.

FILTRATION
rena xp2 with lilly pipes.

HEATING
hydoe external heaters (i think, not sure)

SUBSTRATE
ADA AMAZONIA 9L, ADA POWERSAND L (what was left over from other set up) and GEOSYSTEM extra fine river gravel.
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im still waiting for the tank to arrive and the lighting actualy. it might be a week or two yet.

layout wise, not 100% yet but deffo nature ada style. pathway down the middle with sand rocks left and right, riccia glosso etc... similar to the setup amano did in the 2006 catalogue.
there was riccia in the forground but it exploded, not enough trimming.

and will go exactly where this one was.

the unit can take the weight as its solid oak.

i'll keep you all posted  with lots of pics.

thanks for reading

mark


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## JamesM (15 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Good to see you here mate, can't wait for this


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## Mark Evans (15 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

thanks james,

another image just to test what kinda size i can go to with decent resolution

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][/img]


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## TDI-line (15 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Tanks look great, and welcome.


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## aaronnorth (15 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Looking forward to it


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## LondonDragon (15 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Great looking tank, congrats


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## planter (15 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

 WELCOME
 nice tank! 

Love the simplicity of this scape, nice rockwork too! 
How do you get on with the red sea Co2 system? dont often see it in use on here. I quite like the reactor, But found it was a bit limited to the number of BPS it would handle.


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## Mark Evans (15 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

thanks everyone, feel welcome now.

the red sea reactor is brill. i've never had problems with it, and im running high bub p/s at the minute.the only thing is, is its horrid to luck at, but when i bought co2 in october last year i didnt realise i would become sooooo hooked on the hobby.

i had the rinox 3000 last week and broke it so ive got to order another...bit heavy handed.eventualy everything will be glass.


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## Mark Evans (19 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

my tank has arrived, rather amazing too. i cant believe how clear the glass is! cant wait to set it up.

im off to the green machine in the morning to collect some stone and stuff. hopefully some glass hardware too. credit card at the ready!  

my lights arrive next week.
[

][/img]


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## aaronnorth (19 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

what type of hardscape are you planning on using?


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## Mark Evans (19 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

im leaning towards iwagumi, abit like this. but im prety sure that will change. depending on what pops up tomorow at the green machine i might get inspired in a whole new way. 
i keep playing around with scapes in my head and trying to imagine them matured. im being pulled towards using stem plants to, but im trying to shake my head of that idea.

i realy like this part of planted aquariums (the planing) its endless. because im relativley new to aquariums, im treading carefull i.e copying other designs that work.amano has soooo damn many to choose from.


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## Mark Evans (19 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

this is awsome too.
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][/img]


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## John Starkey (19 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Hi Saintly,welcome to ukaps,i love the simple planting style of your current setup and i like your nano i must try a nano setup soon,your opti-white should be well cool when its all setup cant wait,i am waiting for TGM to get their opti-white tanks in then i will order mine,regards john.


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## George Farmer (19 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Welcome to UKAPS, saintly.

I like your first Iwagumi layout.  

Please be careful when photographing copyrighted material and publishing it on UKAPS.

Who's is the latest aquascape?  Looks like a Dimitri Roger piece, or maybe Jordan Reece?  Maybe including a credit would be a nice idea.


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## aaronnorth (19 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

where are you getting these pics from?


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## Egmel (19 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> Who's is the latest aquascape?  Looks like a Dimitri Roger piece, or maybe Jordan Reece?


The image name has Reece in it so I'm guessing the latter.


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## Mark Evans (19 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

hi george,

sorry, didnt think about the photography. i should know too. the second scape is by jordan reece.i found it on aquatic eden site.


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## George Farmer (19 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				saintly said:
			
		

> hi george,
> 
> sorry, didnt think about the photography. i should know too. the second scape is by jordan reece.i found it on aquatic eden site.



No probs.  Just a friendly word.  UKAPS doesn't want to get into trouble with ADA, after all.


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## Mark Evans (19 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

cool, arronorth, i just search for anything ada on theinternet. it's how i learn. theres some awsome stuff if you look.  

lesson learnt george...


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## Mark Evans (20 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

well after a 2hours 30 min journey to the green machine. i finaly got my stone! all 20kg of it. its the ada seiryu stone which cost me a wopping  Â£6 per kilo! i bought the lot for future scapes...you can never have enough.i also bought my glass hardware, lilly pipes and diffuser etc...also an in line heater and a bag of ada bright sand.
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anyway, ive only used a handful of pieces for the scape, due to the size of the tank im kinda limited as to what i could do
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my lights should be due on tuesday, and hopefully i'll be ordering my plants too.


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## LondonDragon (20 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

That looks great, love the stone, expensive but well worth it  
Looking forward to see it planted  good luck


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## aaronnorth (20 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

looks good, which tank are you on about in the future? Or is that just incase you redo one of them?


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## Mark Evans (20 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

my current big tank, 120 x 40 x 70. i will change that for an optiwhite 120 x 40 x 45. i allready have the stand. i just dont like the height of my current tank.it's a good year from that though.

i've got to see if my wife is STILL my wife after all the money i've been spending.


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## aaronnorth (20 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



> it's a good year from that though



good job, you've only just set that up! and it is looking superb


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## Mark Evans (20 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

thanks aaron,

too kind realy.

heres a couple more pics after ive added 2 more stones. i prefer 5 stone layout to the 3.
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## Mark Evans (20 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

a slight adjustment of the right hand stone.

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## aaronnorth (21 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Much better now the right hand stone is flatter


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## Graeme Edwards (21 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Hi welcome to Ukaps saintly.

Nice thread you have going on. Its great to see some one taking their time getting good advice, good products and having a plan, not rushing. Keep it up.
The rock work looks great, any more thoughts on plant choice?

P.S, your home looks very nice, I sence your into photography as well going by the pictures on your wall. 

Cheers.


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## Mark Evans (21 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

thanks graeme,

yeh, i like photography. i dont do it as much these days. the aquascaping has took center stage in my life.

mmm...plants? still not sure graeme. for sure, vivipara in the back, tenelus also mid ground and im really, really unsure wether to use glosso or hc. 
     you see, i think i messed up putting the forground sand in. reason being i was going to use a line of riccia to divide substrate and sand but this would mean using glosso due to the size factor. if i use hc, this would look wrong behind riccia imho. so if i use hc it would have to do the job of dividing the sand and the substrate if you get my drift. ive never grown hc so it would be fun to try something new.


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## Mark Evans (21 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

ok, after swoping and changing this will be my layout! know one can change my mind now   

if its wrong,  its wrong...thats is how we learn.many more years to get it right.

for those of you that didnt see my otherjournal on tropical fish forums, i was allways changing my layout...and bored everyone in the process.

thanks for reading

mark.

[

][/img]


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## jay (21 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

loving the beginnings of this journal.
got to say though saintly, i really preferred the rock layout before you realized putting the sand in too soon.
this new layout seems much to symmetrical and the largest stone in the middle looks way to much in centre.

i know this hobby is all about trying new things but i really like to stick with the golden ratio technique. 
unless you're thinking of applying this to your planting arrangement then in that case il shut up and enjoy the journal


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## Mark Evans (22 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

yes your right jay. 

and yes i've changed it yet again.its basicly the same but ive just moved everything to the right and moved the furthest stone from the left over to the right .i'll post a pic.

i know the "golden rule" is a great guidline, but ihave looked at sooo many amano iwagumi layouts in books etc, that it is amazing how just dont follow the one thing that he preaches.

i gues thats why he's so damn good. 

thanks jay


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## planter (22 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Hi Saintly,

WOW Great journal. Got yourself some loveley rocks there (rock appreciation society)   but WOW Â£6 a kilo      are they not the same as mini landscape rocks??? I thought the rock arrangement was nice and would look even better when the plants had grown to cover the bottom few cm (centre rock).

Personaly I think I would loose the sand area as the idea of the moss covered sand line lends itself better to the nature aquarium scapes with wood etc. IMO.

The tanks look great against the natural tones of your lounge.
keep us posted


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## Mark Evans (22 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

im not sure if there the same as mini landscape rocks, but these when wet go almost black with little white bits in...lovely. theres images in the 2008 ada catalogue.

well the sand has gone. from the moment i put the first cup in, i knew it wasnt right. with a depth of 30 cm minimising it by 6cm dont make sense.
  well ive got what seems like miles of room back.

heres after rearranging.

jay was right. too center. everything's just moved to the left a tad.
i'll adjust no doubt, but its getting there. its very similsr to an amano layout in the 08 cat. just on a smaller scale.

i know from the image that the stones look in line, but there not its just the angle i shot from. there is depth there.

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][/img]


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## George Farmer (22 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Hi Mark,

Nice journal that's proving very popular on here.  Well done!

Playing with rocks is good fun eh?!

Try to visualise what it will look like with mature plants when positioning rocks i.e. the smallest will likely be lost.  This isn't always a bad thing though.

Have you tried using multiple rocks together in a mound to gain more impact?  Just a thought, as I can see you love experimenting.


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## planter (22 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

This scape has lots of potential - Dont get me wrong Im no expert on rock placement, But as I too love playing with rocks thought I would post my opinion. Hope you dont mind

IMO the eye is still very much drawn to the centre of the scape, see below where the 2 black lines meet
Also (I was preparing the diagram as George was typing the last post) I think your in danger of loosing the smaller rocks (circled in diagram) once the plants grow.





Keep at it, this has the look of a great scape about it (pressure  )


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## Mark Evans (22 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

i know george, in my larger tank, i've lost stones allready. i reckon because of the size of these rocks, it tends to lead me in the way of using hc.

as for mounding rocks, no i've not tried that. how do you mean? make one larger out of 2/3 individual's? i certainly have the rock to do so. im allways scared to go too far away from a half decent arrangment, invase i cant get back there again   allthough i've read that amano says you must embrase rock arranging, dont be scared. he is right.

and yes its fun!instead of taking pictures od landscapes, we create our own.

i drove through the snake pass on the way to the green machine. (616 to manchester) thats prety inspiriational.


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## Mark Evans (22 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

heh planter,

nicely done. were all posting at the same tiome lol.

yeh, for sure those smaller rocks will be lost. the only thing with these rocks is, i cant go any more to the left, i feel it'l look too cramped. by the rule of thirds the CENTER of the big rock seems ideal?

thanks for the input guys, realy apreciated.


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## planter (22 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				saintly said:
			
		

> heh planter,
> 
> nicely done. were all posting at the same tiome lol.
> 
> ...



Hmmmm (scratches head)


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## George Farmer (22 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				saintly said:
			
		

> ...as for mounding rocks, no i've not tried that. how do you mean? make one larger out of 2/3 individual's? i certainly have the rock to do so.
> 
> im allways scared to go too far away from a half decent arrangment.



Yes, just experiment with different combos, angles, sizes etc.  Go a bit mad and you may create something that bit more creative.  If you have the materials, use them.  And don't be scared.  There's no rush is there?  Patience is rewarded in this hobby, as I'm sure you know.

HC will suit the tank size.  Classic Iwagumi 'scapes will include hairgrass accents, or possibly E. tennelus.  Blyxa works well too, as per Jordan's 'scape.  Another interesting option would be the new Staurogyne, or P. helferi.  These would look great as a transition from the HC to the rocks.

Keep having fun!


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## jay (22 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

love that new scape. glad you got rid of the sand line as well now.
thought you might be on to something but you're very right, just dont think it works with that size tank
and planter is bang on when saying about the moss/riccia line working for the wood nature style.

get some plants in there.... i cant wait. hehe


.... just realized this isnt my tank


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## Mark Evans (22 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

thanks guys,

george, your making me stone crazy   i know what you mean regarding experamentation.i'll give it a go! those plant recomendations were just what i was thinking.is it me or dont tropica supply blyxa?
p. helferi is nice isnt it!

jay, your almost as excited as me lol


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## Mark Evans (22 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

ohhhh nooo.....

another arangment. it's some kind of valley thingy?  :? 

i can see it planted if that helps   

thanks george for the push.

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## JamesM (22 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Choices, choices 


I like the last one, but then I like most of the previous ones also :? Can't you buy another 3 tanks and do multiple setups?  Arrhhhh, the possibilities would blow my mind  Keep going though, its obviously better to be happy now, than wanting to redo it again in a few weeks.


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## George Farmer (22 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Getting there.  You'll know when it's right.  Don't settle for less, especially if you have the resources.


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## jay (23 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

scapes are getting better... like George said, you'll know when you have what you want. it will hit you like a lightning bolt and you'll just wanna plant plant plant!! 

i was wondering the same thing about blyxa from tropica. really don't think they do it, although i think they did.(seen a description page on the website).
really want some and thinking of getting it mail order, although i remember in PFK magazine a couple months back
Jeremy Gay doing an article on mail order plants and commenting on how bad most of the blyxa japonica ships.


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## Mark Evans (23 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

woooo hoooo, did yanyones powersupply dip a little? lights flicker or dim? electrical good fail? no?.... they should of!

my new lights just arrived, and i mean powerfull. too much me thinks. im gona have to get this right!

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## aaronnorth (23 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Ours went off for a bit, we get them frequently, dont think it is too much as George used the same light unit on his 60cm what he did for PFK.


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## George Farmer (24 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

In my 60cm opti-white, I ran 2 x T5 for 8 hour photoperiod.  Plants don't need more light than this.

4 x T5 is handy for photography though.  It's enough to freeze the fish nicely and maintain decent DoF...


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## Mark Evans (25 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

thanks for the advice george,

i've got a selection of the plants to go into the tank.

5 p helferi, (thanks for advice george)
2 vivipara (love this stuff)

to arrive from aqua essentials:-

6 x Tropica Hemianthus callitrichoides ''Cuba'' (048B)  
4 x Tropica Echinodorus Tennellus (067)  

so hopefully should be planted by the weekend.
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## jay (25 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

love pogostemon helferi.
had a nice foreground starting from just one plant... then my ram got hungry  

something about p.helferi against those rocks...beautiful.
can tell this is gonna be fairly awsome.

... dont want to put too much pressure on you


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## planter (27 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Hi Saintly,

Are you going with the  'Valley thingy' type hardscape?


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## aaronnorth (27 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				planter said:
			
		

> Hi Saintly,
> 
> Are you going with the  'Valley thingy' type hardscape?



'valley thingy' - the next amazing layout name


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## Mark Evans (27 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

the "valley thingy" idea has gone im afraid. i just didnt like it. i felt the tank wasnt big enough to realy pull it off. maybe im wrong.

anyway ive gone for the earlier version. actually i've started planting the hc....good god, what a job! i might finish sometime next year! :?


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## planter (27 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				saintly said:
			
		

> the "valley thingy" idea has gone im afraid. i just didnt like it. i felt the tank wasnt big enough to realy pull it off. maybe im wrong.
> 
> anyway ive gone for the earlier version. actually i've started planting the hc....good god, what a job! i might finish sometime next year! :?



I think youve done the right thing    I much prefered the earlier arrangements.

Its advisable to drink lots of Cold beer when planting HC


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## Mark Evans (27 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

hey planter,

im going hc mad   

here's a quick pic of work in progress.
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## George Farmer (27 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

I can see this mature, already.  A class act.  

Nice one, Mark.


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## planter (27 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Looking good saintly! this is going to be soooo nice


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## PM (28 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Hot diggity dang!

That looks niiiiiice


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## LondonDragon (28 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

That looks very impressive, excelent hardscape and good choice os plants, can't wait to see it mature 
Good luck and congratulions on the setup


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## Mark Evans (28 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

thanks guys, early days yet though...

here's some more pics after planting the tenelus.

forground : hc
infront of rocks : p helferi

side of rocks and slightly behind in areas : e tennelus

background (though you cant see it yet) from left to right 3/4 : vivipara

as you can see, ive still yet to put all leads etc inside cabinet. a bit of diy next  

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## PM (28 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Looking good!  Is your tank from Aqua Essentials?  Good luck with the vivpara, I found it very hard too grow - mine died!


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## planter (28 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Saintly did good!   

Nice work mate, Not sure what the rules are regarding posting pics etc, But I reckon this could be a worthy entry for AGA! Not sure when they start taking entries but I got a feeling its late in the year Sept/Oct.


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## Mark Evans (28 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

hi pm,

yup the tanks from aqua essentials. quality too! i've opted for the vivipara purley because i grew it in my small arcadia setup, it grew like wildfire. i hope it takes off in this tank too  

planter my friend, im getting to like you even more with wonderfull comments like that   seriously, ive got to keep the plants alive first


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## planter (28 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

 The hard work is done IMO, Ive seen your other 2 tanks you know how to grow the plants!


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## aaronnorth (28 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

I'm glad you have changed it back, it looks much better this way.


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## johnny70 (28 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

I love the look, this is going to be a winner when its grown in, beautiful! what the stocking plan fish wise?

JOHNNY


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## Mark Evans (28 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

seriously guys your too kind, but thanks anyway.

as for fish, well im not to sure to be honest. spmething small for sure. i dont know too much about fish. no doubt i'll see something that amano has used. 

defo not cardinals, i reckon they would take away from the look. it needs something that would blend in. open to ideas really.


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## aaronnorth (28 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

so something simple with not too much colour on? How about lamp eyes?


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## Mark Evans (28 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

ive checked them out aaron, nice looking fish. a tad bulky for my liking. was thinking of something a bit sleaker maybe.


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## aaronnorth (28 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

How about some killifish?


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## Mark Evans (28 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

cor there beautys. too nice.

i reckon something like, harlequin rasboras. small, slight colour. or harlequintetras.


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## George Farmer (28 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

MA @ Crowland have some awesome small fish suited to this simple style of aquascape.  You're spoilt for choice...


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## Mark Evans (28 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

i'll pay them a visit george. im swaying towards harlequin rasboras. nice looking fish.

the other thing. i can now see why these tanks are called "high clarity" simply awsome viewing.


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## George Farmer (28 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				saintly said:
			
		

> i'll pay them a visit george. im swaying towards harlequin rasboras. nice looking fish.
> 
> the other thing. i can now see why these tanks are called "high clarity" simply awsome viewing.


Cool.  Try to find Steve (manager) or Kevan ('deputy') and pass on my regards.

Yes, opti-white is something else.  It's hard to explain without seeing it in person, especially alongside regular glass.


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## JamesM (28 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

I am so damn jealous right now  That looks incredible mate, beautiful job


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## Mark Evans (29 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				JAmesM said:
			
		

> I am so damn jealous right now  That looks incredible mate, beautiful job



thanks james    the only thing that makes it looks nice is a lot of home work and looking at amano setups, thats all. oh and a bit of help on plant choice from george   



			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> Cool. Try to find Steve (manager) or Kevan ('deputy') and pass on my regards.



ive been down today george, its a great shop. spoilt for choice on the fish front. i spotted some white cloud mountain minnows?...i liked these. there were a few other fish that i liked too.

kev was in today, another nice chap we had bit of a chat. past on your regards!


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## George Farmer (29 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				saintly said:
			
		

> i spotted some white cloud mountain minnows?...i liked these.


Or was it Vietnamese minnows?  Check this out -  viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1228

How was Kev's planted display tank, the 150cm Rena with overtank luminaires, CO2 etc?


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## Mark Evans (29 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				saintly said:
			
		

> Or was it Vietnamese minnows? Check this out - viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1228



they had those too. but they werent for sale as yet. they look better in or your images actualy.



			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> How was Kev's planted display tank, the 150cm Rena with overtank luminaires, CO2 etc?



yeh, that looked good. he said that was his little baby. i think he said he was going to post on here sometime.

i was amazed to see tropica plants in store and then kev informed me that there starting to stock tropica or at least 6 stores were.. which is a good thing.


----------



## George Farmer (29 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				saintly said:
			
		

> i was amazed to see tropica plants in store and then kev informed me that there starting to stock tropica or at least 6 stores were.. which is a good thing.


The nagging pays off eventually...  Their plants were poor before I became a regular.    

Tropica offer free training to LFS staff.  More stores should take up the offer.  Plants are becoming big business.


----------



## Mark Evans (29 Jun 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

well on visiting ma @ crowland i ended up buying a stand for my aquarium.

to be honest i realy wanted an ada style but it just wouldnt match my room. so i opted for a cheap fluval thing. but actualy it looks alright.

this isnt the final placement for it, or neither will all the leads be left out as they are. its just temp until i know everything is ruuning fine.



			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> The nagging pays off eventually... Their plants were poor before I became a regular.



george you need to visit every branch of theres then  some stores are dire!

notice the pots in the big tank?...hc going spare! anyone wants it pm me.

i know i know, my glosso needs cutting. im wishing i'd never used it. i really dont want to re plant in that tank as its sooo tall.

[


][/img]


----------



## aaronnorth (1 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Have you decided on any fish? Glowlight tetras are nice.


----------



## Mark Evans (1 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				aaronnorth said:
			
		

> Have you decided on any fish? Glowlight tetras are nice.



thats more like the fish im looking for. good choice aaron. i also like the look of mountain minnows. i saw these at MA crowland.

ill post some pics at the weekend.

the tanks looking good. the hc seems to be settling in. everything seems to be greening up nicley. the water's sparkling to.  

all in all im a happy bunny. heres one with my evening lights on.

[

][/img]


----------



## Mark Evans (1 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

i think the lighting looks cool. 

not sure the wife will like though. ahh well.


----------



## aaronnorth (1 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				saintly said:
			
		

> i think the lighting looks cool.



sure does  8)


----------



## Dan Crawford (3 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Looks really nice mate, i've done somthing similar behind my tele illuminating the dry-scaped tank below, great effect.


----------



## Mark Evans (3 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

aaron, dan, cheers fellas.

yeh dan, the whole visual thing, night time lighting etc is really important to me. it kinda adds to the whole nature aquarium deal. oh...i will be tidying those leads up    my wife says so.

heres a couple of updates, 1 week on. the hc is showing good signs of spreading. ive never grown so i dont know how fast it grows. but some cuttings have gone at least half an inch across the substrate.

[

][/img]

[

][/img]


----------



## LondonDragon (3 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Looks great  HC is spreading nicely (mine didn't grow at all so you doing very well), this tank will look great in a mater of a couple of week or so  

Tidy up those leads!! lol ambient light looks good too, keep us posted!


----------



## planter (3 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Looking good ! the Hc is spreading at quiet a rate eh? No sign of any algae issue either... Well done


----------



## Mark Evans (3 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				planter said:
			
		

> the Hc is spreading at quiet a rate eh?



yeh i think so, ive compared a photo 1 week apart and yes its filling in really good. i just presume this is normal. the e tenelus is losing its older leaves and hopfully new growth should start coming through.


			
				planter said:
			
		

> No sign of any algae issue either



again, ive just pumped co2 in to the tank and dosed flourish excel daily. no ferts as yet. im just running the whole thing like i did my big tank( which im not liking the scape of at the mo)
and  hopefully everything should run smooth (touching wood)



			
				LondonDragon said:
			
		

> Tidy up those leads!! lol ambient light looks good too, keep us posted!


  im on it!


----------



## Mark Evans (4 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

ok, ive just come back from MA@whisby with 6 white cloud mountain minnows. there in my 120 at the mo. just so i can see how they look. i do plan to put them in the 60 when its matured.

a couple of pics to show you all.a pleasent pretty fish yet in i nice way understated!

by the way arronnorth, i saw some lampeyes....nice fish mate.

[

][/img]

[

][/img]

heres one of the new setup using a longer lens.can you tell ive got a day off and am bored?  

[

][/img]


----------



## REDSTEVEO (4 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Hi Saintly, great thread. Your wife still there   

If its not too late on the fish suggestion may I suggest a large shoal of Ember Tetras!! I have just put 30 in mine and they look the business honest. They stay small colour up beautiful and shoal around. Perfect.

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## Mark Evans (4 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				REDSTEVEO said:
			
		

> Hi Saintly, great thread. Your wife still there



na, shes away seing mother inlaw

so ive checked out these ember tetras and they too look beautifull. ive rung my lfs and they have some MA@eastbridgeford. im going to check them out tommorrow.

thanks redsteveo. im after somthing that dosent take too much away from the overall feel of the tank.

these minnows that are in my big tank think there cardinals! they are following them everywhere. and actually they dont swim together all that well.


----------



## REDSTEVEO (4 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Hi Saintly, where did you check them out? If you have any trouble getting hold of them I know somewhere you can try.

Good luck, I'm really looking forward to seeing the finished article.

ps Your a wife a saint  by any chance?

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## Mark Evans (4 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				REDSTEVEO said:
			
		

> Hi Saintly, where did you check them out?



i googled them   



			
				REDSTEVEO said:
			
		

> ps Your a wife a saint  by any chance?



 i reckon so, she must be living with me!

thanks for the fish tip steveo


----------



## LondonDragon (4 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Those minnows are great  great photography too, can I borrow your 5D sometime?? lol


----------



## GreenNeedle (4 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

I went into Ma @ Whisby yesterday and spotted some fish I like.  Saw the lampeyes too and yes they do look cool.  What temp are you running the tank at with WCMM in there?

Wasn't overly impressed with the quality @ Whisby to be honest.  There were quite a few dead bodies being fed on and most of the fish weren't showing much colour.  The notable exceptions being some balloon Blue Rams which were spectacularly coloured but looked it a bit silly really compared to the normal Ram.

Good photos as always in this journal.

Andy


----------



## Mark Evans (4 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> What temp are you running the tank at with WCMM in there?



25c i have read they prefer a cooler aquarium?....



			
				SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> Wasn't overly impressed with the quality @ Whisby to be honest.



have to agree 100% mate. pretty poor. although i checked the tank before purchasing the fish. there plants a awfull! can i say that? :? i also went to "the aquarium" on outer circle road? that wasnt so good neither. not for planted anyway.



			
				LondonDragon said:
			
		

> can I borrow your 5D sometime?? lol



 yes when ive finished with it...... in about 10years?  

i'll bore you all with photos


----------



## GreenNeedle (4 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

By cooler I have read that 22-23 is nearer the mark for WCMM which is why I asked.  Never had any experience so can't confirm this.

You can say their plants are terrible. I think that would be holding back.  I thought they were disgusting and make P@H look good. lol.  Add to this their terrible lack of any wood other than Mopani and the planted enthusiasts are left with not a lot. Oh well.

Again with the Aquarium (I was in there on Tuesday) they don't have many plants but he will order whatever Tropica you want in if you ask him.  He does keep his fish in awesome condition though.

There is another fish shop at the opening of Allenby estate which again is not so good for plants but the fish are OK.

Andy


----------



## jay (4 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Plants are coming along real nice.

Never been sure with WCMM, they never seem to shoal too well when I look at them (maybe they don't like my face)  
Really like Embers though. Always look great in a vibrant green tank.

You sticking to one species?


----------



## Mark Evans (4 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				jay said:
			
		

> Never been sure with WCMM, they never seem to shoal too well when I look at them


its happening allready. they dont like swimming together. 4 will the other 3 just do there own thing. 

if i like the look of the embers tommorrow i might go with them.



			
				jay said:
			
		

> You sticking to one species?



oh yes, apart from an algae crew i'll be keeping 1 shoal maybe 7 or 8 strong.

this is my last pic for at least 1 week...promise. maybe 2!!!!!  or tommorow if i buy some ember tetras!


----------



## ulster exile (4 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Don't stop with the pics, a journal just isn't the same without them and they are lovely pics!  I really like the backlit tanks.


----------



## Mark Evans (5 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				ulster exile said:
			
		

> Don't stop with the pics, a journal just isn't the same without them and they are lovely pics! I really like the backlit tanks.



thanks ulster, youve just given me licencse to bore.

ive just arrived back from MA @ eastbridgeford with 5 ember tetras.

they've been in the tank for an hour or so and seem to be setteling in ok.they swim about freely and stick together real well.

thanks to redsteveo   

heres a pic or two to show you all. ive experimented with a wide angle lens to get a deeper sens of the tank(the last pic)


----------



## ulster exile (5 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

This kind of boring is great fun 

I like the embers - I have 11 myself.  They are pretty skittish fish, but lovely to watch.


----------



## jay (5 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Embers! Nice.

Just watch them colour up now.


----------



## sanj (5 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Are you going to have a larger shoal of them?


----------



## Mark Evans (5 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				sanj said:
			
		

> Are you going to have a larger shoal of them?



yeh much bigger. the reason for 5 is just to see how they look really. and i dont want to strain my filter. ive added 3 amano shrimp. ottos next.

i reckon10 or 15 should do it? i'll just keep adding untiol i think it looks right.



			
				jay said:
			
		

> Just watch them colour up now.



theyve been in for a few hours now and allready there starting to colour up. and there feeding.quite amuzing to watch and shoal real tight. i can imagine a bigger shoal.

the mountain minnows are going to stay in my big tank. they kinda add to the feel of that tank. there wacky little fish actualy.


----------



## Garuf (5 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

I've got Ember tetras and found them to REALLY come out of there shells when offered schizophrenic balls of energy as tank mates, a kind of dither fish I guess. I've kept them on there own and found they did nothing but hide, added some lampeye killifish and they will now take flake from my fingers.


----------



## REDSTEVEO (5 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Love the Embers, class man, class!! I reckon total 12, 15 max, anymore and the effect will be lost.

Looking forward to seeing the rest in when you get paid     

Cheers.

Steve


----------



## TDI-line (5 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Lovely pics.


----------



## Mark Evans (6 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

ok no pics, promise.

ive done some trimming this morning. 

trimmed hc stems that are growing verticaly and replanted. not sure how this stuff grows, but it seems a very fast grower. i dont think it will be long till it covers the front.

p helferi, still waiting for signs of new growth. again not sure on this plants growth.

e tennelus, ive trimmed runners where ther starting to infringe on certain areas.

e vivipara, ive trimmed this to an even level as it was higher one side. this is growing quick too. 2 x as fast as it did in my arcadia.

when you look down the side of the tank theres lots of roots showing in the substrate   so im happy,

and no signs what so ever of algae. ive not even cleaned the front  glass from day one.only externaly with windowleane liquid (awsome stuff)

thanks for reading

mark.


----------



## ulster exile (6 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Oh how I wish I was better at visualising, if only there were photos...


----------



## Mark Evans (6 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				ulster exile said:
			
		

> Oh how I wish I was better at visualising, if only there were photos...



   

ok just for you ulster.

you can see that the vivipara si shorter because you cant see it now   it grows back good though.

im really just practicing angles and stuff for when the tank matures. i know it's a long way off, but it looks ok for a week old. ignore the background. ive got some proper white stuff but i wasnt going to set that up. i did the hairdryer thing too.

the last shot is frrom behind the tank just to show the vivpara rooting.


----------



## jay (6 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Did you start chipping into some of those rocks at all or did they come like that? just got a load up of them seiyru(sp?) rocks
and dot really like the look of the 'dusty' coating on some. 
Some of your dark, white veined rocks still have a good amount of texture.


----------



## Matt Holbrook-Bull (6 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				jay said:
			
		

> Did you start chipping into some of those rocks at all or did they come like that? just got a load up of them seiyru(sp?) rocks
> and dot really like the look of the 'dusty' coating on some.
> Some of your dark, white veined rocks still have a good amount of texture.



they look extremely like the Mini landscape rocks from AE.  Theyre quite wonderful.


----------



## Mark Evans (6 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

the ones in the tank (big ones) are as they were. i hit a couple of others to get some smaller pieces, but i didnt use them.

i did choose the best out of maybe a dozen stones.

i spoke with rich from AE and he read this journal and sayed that they were mini landscapr rocks. which actualy gutted me because if you read the previous post i paid top dollar for them Â£6.00 per kg i think.

nothing against the green machine, but they need to look at the pricing of those stones. jim did say they were ADA and that he was the only one that had them in the country..... :?


----------



## jay (6 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Yeah I ordered 11Kg from AE. I didn't think to give any specifics on what sort of sizes but I was very happy with what I got.
Its just I usually see them much darker with stark white veining, I got some like this, but the larger pieces looked very light and grey. Still nice just not what I was expecting. I've chipped away at most of them with a chisel now to expose the darker layers. Very happy with them... For rocks.


----------



## Mark Evans (6 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

if you look in the ADA catalogue 08, amano uses them and there near on black whith white veins. much better. i guess he really gets to pick the best ones

i guess with time algae will age them a little, make them look more naturel.


----------



## jay (6 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Yeah I know what tank you mean, the one based on a rocky coast line? pages 38-41.
Bet he gets first dibs on everything hehe

Â£6 a kg? ouch! Â£2.99 at AE. I only wanted a couple of kg of them but decided to go a it overboard, to get the free delivery.
Never know when your going to need rocks.


----------



## Mark Evans (6 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				jay said:
			
		

> Yeah I know what tank you mean, the one based on a rocky coast line? pages 38-41.



yep thats the one.



			
				jay said:
			
		

> Â£6 a kg? ouch! Â£2.99 at AE.



seriously gutted mate. i could of had twice as much.

i find the ADA catalogues sooo inspirational, im planing my next scape already.


----------



## jay (6 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Definitely inspirational. I only just received the 2008. Never got any other before, ordered an AquaJournal also.
In Japanese but..... I like the pretty pictures   
Rally liking the Yamaya stones on page 22 of the catalogue, Never done an iwagumi set up but want those stones for a 1st.


----------



## Mark Evans (6 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

yeh great catalogue. try and get the 06 version. try AE. ive also got nature aquarium world book 1. some of the scapes in there are like 17/18 years old and are just stunning. realy good read too!


----------



## jay (6 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Got the Three books,love em! Truth be told I prefer the old scapes with the black backgrounds, compared to a lot of todays
super clean tanks. Except for Iwagumi styles. The crisper the better.
Will have to check that 06 catalogue out mate.... Think I'm going to buy new tank tomorrow, If I get some time.  
This journal has been quite inspirational.


----------



## George Farmer (6 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Looks like the painstaking HC planting paid off, Mark.  Well done!

You just need a nice cabinet to tidy it all up now...  I can highly recommend the AE cabinets that can be built to you own colour spec etc.  TGM also do some nice Aquariums Ltd. cabinets that are very nice, with piano laquer finish etc.


----------



## Ray (7 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

I like this tank a lot Saintly, its a really lovely scape.  Tell me about the photography, you seem to know what you are about.  You have one spotlight for backlight and another frontlight?  How many watts are they?  If moving the tank out into the middle of the room were not an option how would you do the backlight?


----------



## Mark Evans (7 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> Looks like the painstaking HC planting paid off, Mark. Well done!



cheers george. yep the hc's growing in lovely now. 

i started a dosing regime yesterday. ive read in the 06 ADA catalogue that amano recomends and i quote

"after one week, we advise to supply liquid fertilizer for suppliment micro elements and pottasium so that the plants forms healthy burgeon and submersed leaf"

so im adding tpn.. not the plus.

now im not sure which "k" to add. is it k2so4? there all k!....... come on EI users help me out. anyways after just 24hours of dosing micros it seems very evident that all the plants have taken on a new tone in green...much more vibrant.especialy the e tennelus. i just wish my p helferi would do something or just show signs of growth. :? 



			
				Ray said:
			
		

> Tell me about the photography, you seem to know what you are about. You have one spotlight for backlight and another frontlight? How many watts are they? If moving the tank out into the middle of the room were not an option how would you do the backlight?



hi ray, the pics that you see use just a 500w tungsten bulb hnce the orange colour(i can get rid with raw) ive got 2 but i used just the one. im in the process of practising techniques really.
i also used a cheap old blanket for the background.

when it comes to the final thing i'll hire some studio flash heads. ive got to get hold of some good quality white paper. im reckoning it would be best to "bounce to flash heads off the white backing.
similar to what you would use in a studio. set the flash so it gives you the ability to use iso 100 or on a 5D iso 50....with an F-stop of 16 for pin sharp. when using white background this gives you the ability to meter for the pklants etc... knowing that everything else behind the scene will be white (overexposed) which is what you want.

if you look in the ADA catalogue 06 page 18 you'll see what i mean. amano has 4 heads facing away from the tank.typical studio shot with white background.

i personly would love to take a tank into a studio and try it. ive done it with people, never a tank   a logistical nightmare, but im making in roads to the idea.


----------



## Ray (7 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				saintly said:
			
		

> hi ray, the pics that you see use just a 500w tungsten bulb



Thank you for the long answer.  I don't have that catalog but I think I know the image you mention -just can't recall where I saw it...   So do you just get a normal Ikea spotlight and slap a 500w bulb in or do you buy something special?


----------



## Mark Evans (7 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				Ray said:
			
		

> So do you just get a normal Ikea spotlight and slap a 500w bulb in or do you buy something special?



well it was specifacly for photography, although not quality lighting its ok for black and white stuff. you certainly could emulate the same kind of lighting. when it comes to the pro range of lighting, you pay big bucks for that.
this is why i will hire/rent pro equimpment flasheads etc.

i used to own some top  end gear but i got rid of most of it, when i decided to stop trying to earn money at photography. allthough my passion for photography has been re-ignited again trying to capture the beauty of a planted aquarium.


----------



## ceg4048 (7 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				saintly said:
			
		

> i started a dosing regime yesterday. ive read in the 06 ADA catalogue that amano recomends and i quote
> 
> "after one week, we advise to supply liquid fertilizer for suppliment micro elements and pottasium so that the plants forms healthy burgeon and submersed leaf"
> 
> ...



Hi,
EI users don't typically agree with Amanos recommendation because we refuse to get devoured by the Great White ADA Liquid Fertilizer Shark. His recommendations are based on the hunger of the marketing machine , not on reality, as clearly evidenced by P. helferi's refusal to grow.

In any case, if you wanted to add K without adding NO3 or PO4 then K2SO4 (Potassium Sulfate) is an excellent choice. Your assessment is correct in that the K in KNO3 and KH2PO4 is exactly the same K as contained in K2SO4, however K2SO4 adds K without adding Nitrogen or Phosphorous which violates EI principles unless your tap water is sufficiently high in these elements.

Cheers,


----------



## Mark Evans (7 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				saintly said:
			
		

> Your assessment is correct in that the K in KNO3 and KH2PO4 is exactly the same K as contained in K2SO4, however K2SO4 adds K without adding Nitrogen or Phosphorous which violates EI principles unless your tap water is sufficiently high in these elements.



thanks ceg, the quote was from one of amanos journals and im guessing that these are the first few steps in his dosing regime.i dont think he employs this method full time.

and in the first 2 weeksof anew setup surely you wouldnt dose full EI? isnt that asking for trouble?

so you would say that the k im looking for is k2s04? 

would you say that my p helferi could just trying to get established?

thanks for replying mate.


----------



## ceg4048 (7 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Hi saintly,
               Well, I always have to preface my remarks by acknowledging that I am a fanatic. I can guarantee you that when setting up a tank, within 350 microseconds of the water level reaching the top I dose full EI and sometimes 2X EI depending on lighting conditions. I don't see any reason at all to be half baked. Nutrients don't cause algae - ever. The problems in a startup tank are the high levels of ammonia produced by unbalanced NH4 levels exacerbated by high lighting. This calls algae spores to the table at which time they feast and produce blooms.

The way to mitigate this is to do frequent (2X and 3X per week) massive (70%-90%) water changes and to use half lighting, not half nutrients.  This directly removes NH4 as well as algal spores and lowers the photon flux density which algae are much more able to exploit in the beginning. Of course, with a lowered lighting level you could justify lowering the dosing, but I attempt to force feed the plants by having high nutrient concentration levels which accelerates their uptake and metamorphosis into the submerged state. I've never had a problem using this method except for diatom algae for the first couple of weeks. Lowering the light some more tends to get this algae out of the way more quickly. Naturally, all this requires massive CO2 injection since high nutrient load creates high CO2 uptake demand (and vice versa).

Cheers,


----------



## Ray (7 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				saintly said:
			
		

> and in the first 2 weeksof anew setup surely you wouldnt dose full EI? isnt that asking for trouble?


No, its fine because nutrients do not cause algae, ammonia does.  Your plants might be stressed when you get them, best to start dosing right away - healthy plants will not leach ammonia and will actually help remove some from the water column, defficient plants will leach ammonia which will trigger algae.  
Of course, Ammano uses Aqua Soil which is so loaded with nutrients that he can get away with waiting a week before starting lean dosing due to the massive leaching that occurs on start up.  Also I think the ADA fertilizer scheme is quite lean compared with EI - not to say its worse, but you have less margin of error.


----------



## George Farmer (7 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Nutrients don't cause algae - ever.


You should write a PFK blog on this, Clive.

BTW, it's worth noting that NH4 is a nutrient, so be careful...


----------



## Ray (7 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> ceg4048 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are right George, he should - that could be the title too


----------



## Mark Evans (7 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

again thanks for the reply,



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Well, I always have to preface my remarks by acknowledging that I am a fanatic.


 it's good to see   

the whole "aquascaping" thing is making me the same way.

im using only half of the availble lighting so im half way there.i think even if i used all of the lighting potential, it'd be too much.

i just wonder why amano only doses micros and k in the first stages...i know that EI works! ive seen the evidence. maybe because he has such a nutrient rich substrate?



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> The way to mitigate this is to do frequent (2X and 3X per week) massive (70%-90%) water changes and to use half lighting, not half nutrients



i fully understand. i do 2 x waterchange at the moment

i'll keep my eyes on things and see what happens.

thanks again for the detailed reply


----------



## Mark Evans (7 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

woohoo, 3 replys while i was writing mine  

now im getting confused :?  dose?..not dose?


----------



## ceg4048 (7 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				Ray said:
			
		

> George Farmer said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hey, great idea  :idea:  -  but would anyone reading it even listen, or would they just write it off as ramblings of a nutter? Sometimes I feel like John the Baptist shouting in the wilderness...  

I'm going to designate NH4 as the planted tanks version of E. bola...  



			
				saintly said:
			
		

> ...i just wonder why amano only doses micros and k in the first stages...i know that EI works! ive seen the evidence. maybe because he has such a nutrient rich substrate...



Well, as George righty points out, NH4 based compounds seem to be the De Jour component in many of the commercial nutrients, probably due to it's lower cost per mole of Nitrogen. If this is the case it makes sense to lower the water dosing and to depend on nutrient uptake from the sediment. If we are using innocuous salts such as KNO3 and KH2PO4 though then there is no issue at all and we are free to dose at any level we choose.

Another reason is that the community may consider algal outbreaks inevitable and in that case it would be logical to lower the nutrient levels in order to attenuate the bloom growth rate. However, if we understand the causal factors of the blooms we have complete freedom and we know what steps to take in order to mitigate or even avoid the blooms altogether.

Cheers,


----------



## Mark Evans (7 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				saintly said:
			
		

> Well, as George righty points out, NH4 based compounds seem to be the De Jour component in many of the commercial nutrients, probably due to it's lower cost per mole of Nitrogen. If this is the case it makes sense to lower the water dosing and to depend on nutrient uptake from the sediment. If we are using innocuous salts such as KNO3 and KH2PO4 though then there is no issue at all and we are free to dose at any level we choose.
> 
> Another reason is that the community may consider algal outbreaks inevitable and in that case it would be logical to lower the nutrient levels in order to attenuate the bloom growth rate. However, if we understand the causal factors of the blooms we have complete freedom and we know what steps to take in order to mitigate or even avoid the blooms altogether.



lovely jubly ceg.  

thankfully theres not one sign of algae.


----------



## jay (8 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Right, now my head has stopped going numb and eyes are de-crossed :?   

I understand ammonia is the course of algae and fluctuating co2 levels, not nutrients, even though ammonia(to an extent is a nutrient)

ADA Amazonia Soil leeches ammonia doesn't it? 
So could using a well established filter and large water changes from the beginning stop any algae issues? 
And keep healthy dosing of nutrients throughout initial phases.

Sorry if this is thread hijacking but I'm still very green to this sort of in-depth knowledge and I'm fascinated.

ceg4048: I really like your way of thinking. I've read many posts from the likes of you and Tom Barr about ammonia being the main problem with algae... then I pick up the latest PFK magazine and theres an article about too much nitrate and potassium being the culprits. It can be very confusing.


----------



## ceg4048 (8 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Hi Jay,
         Yes, Aquasoil does leach NH4 into the water column and using a cycled filter will definitely help. The same can be said of using mulm to line the bottom of or to mix with the new sediment. Large water changes are always a most effective measure since it directly removes the main culprits (remember that it directly removes spores as well which filters do not).

I'm going to have to check out the PFK article and prepare a blog response. The nutrient haters are really getting out of hand.  

Cheers,


----------



## George Farmer (8 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				jay said:
			
		

> ... latest PFK magazine and theres an article about too much nitrate and potassium being the culprits. It can be very confusing.



Who wrote that?  Were they referring to a non-planted tank?  And was it potassium or phosphate?

Mark - I can recommend dosing 2ml TPN+ per day, with 2x 1/2 weekly water changes for the first 8 weeks.  Then 1x 1/2 weekly water change.  Works for me.  Has done for nearly 2 years now.  You can add more if required, no problem.

The user-friendliness that some ADA-fans like is there with TPN+.  In fact I've made it even easier by putting my TPN+ into a pump/squirt bottle that doses exactly 1ml per pump.  It was an old ADA fert bottle actually... 

It's more expensive than dry ferts though, so bear that in mind.


----------



## Dave Spencer (8 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Hi Jay,
> I'm going to have to check out the PFK article and prepare a blog response. The nutrient haters are really getting out of hand.
> Cheers,



Go for it Clive. I love a good verbal scrap, backed up by pictures of flourishing planted tanks soaked in toxins.  

I have been thinking of starting an `algae causes` thread on the TFF scientific section forum, but I lack your eloquence.

Dave.


----------



## LondonDragon (8 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				jay said:
			
		

> ... latest PFK magazine and theres an article about too much nitrate and potassium being the culprits. It can be very confusing.



Yeah I saw that too, really confused the hell out of me after what I have learned here over the past 4 months, and knowing George is part of the magazine was thinking they would have the facts straight by now too!


----------



## Mark Evans (8 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

well anyway, back to the journal.... :? 

thansk for the input guys, im much clearer on my dosing regimes. i'll just see what happens i guess.

didnt shakespear write " do dose or not to dose, that is the question"   

ceg i checked out your tank, and theres certainly a thumbs up for EI my friend, beautifull i have to say.  



			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> Mark - I can recommend dosing 2ml TPN+ per day, with 2x 1/2 weekly water changes for the first 8 weeks. Then 1x 1/2 weekly water change. Works for me. Has done for nearly 2 years now.



cheers buddy.


----------



## jay (8 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> jay said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I got it slightly wrong, it was nitrate and PHOSPHATE, although Jeremy Gay does take into consideration that ammonia is also blamed, it is suggested in any form of tank.
Apologies to anyone miffed at my mistake.  

Also sorry to saintly for a lil thread hijacking. Shouldn't take away from his work.


----------



## Mark Evans (9 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				jay said:
			
		

> Also sorry to saintly for a lil thread hijacking. Shouldn't take away from his work.



dont worry mate, it's fine. im learning too so all this debate is good.


----------



## Mark Evans (9 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

well ive been rained off today so im at home sat around doing nothing. and gues what.... i just found my camera    

to dose or not to dose, that is the question....  

here's 2 comparison shots.now you must understand that both images, because shot in raw, have identical settings i.e whitebalance contrast etc. etc....just so you can see the progress.

the first is from the 28th june 08 1 day after planting. the hc was in 2 days prior along with the vivpara.







and this one is from today 9th july 2008, almost 2 weeks on. the big ugly filter in the corner is just there to help with amonia levels. it mature from my arcadia tank.

i was doubting the growth of my p helferi, but on closer inspection its grown more than id previously thought.im also discovering that e tenelus is a quick grower! :? 

i reckon this is going to be high maintenance, but i realy dont mind.





thanks for looking guys and gals!


----------



## John Starkey (9 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Hi Saintly,i like it very much it has come on really well,what is your dosing programme and how much are you feeding the plants,regards john.


----------



## LondonDragon (9 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

It will be filled in pretty quickly  looking great. Keep us posted and always more photos


----------



## aaronnorth (9 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

a few more weeks and everything will be filled in. Good work Mark


----------



## Mark Evans (9 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

thanks chaps,



			
				aaronnorth said:
			
		

> a few more weeks and everything will be filled in. Good work Mark



cheers aaron  



			
				LondonDragon said:
			
		

> Keep us posted and always more photos


will do  



			
				john starkey said:
			
		

> what is your dosing programme and how much are you feeding the plants,regards john.



i started with tpn after the 3rd day, and i was only adding like 1ml p/d. 

now im in to week 2 im dosing tpn+   @ 2ml  p/d. all seems well. 

john, i can see by your journal you have a lovely p heferi carpet. nice mate


----------



## Mark Evans (11 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

at last...my p helferi is growing. its took 2 weeks to settlte in now its growing.


----------



## LondonDragon (11 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				saintly said:
			
		

> at last...my p helferi is growing. its took 2 weeks to settlte in now its growing.


Nice  need to get some of that for my tank, would be nice to place it between the carpet and the stem plants!


----------



## Mark Evans (11 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

LD, if you can wait a month you can have some of mine?... i would guess i cut the runners. not totaly sure. :?


----------



## aaronnorth (11 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

you can chop it off at the top like a stem plant - or the runners


----------



## Mark Evans (11 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

cheers mate   

happy birthday for monday


----------



## aaronnorth (11 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				saintly said:
			
		

> cheers mate
> 
> happy birthday for monday



Thanks


----------



## LondonDragon (11 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				saintly said:
			
		

> LD, if you can wait a month you can have some of mine?... i would guess i cut the runners. not totaly sure. :?


Thanks, I will keep that in mind, I should pop in to my LFS soon usually has them for Â£2.50 a pot, so if I am there I will get some, I will let you know


----------



## Mark Evans (11 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

ok LD   

well chaps, im off in the morning fishing!im going for a couple of days carp fishing, actualy match carp fishing.  so i'll save you all from a load old post and pics.

heres 1 from tonight i dont know if you can see the p helferi has perked up loads.

the e tennelus is growing like a weed and the vivipara is spreading nicely. i'll do my trimming next week! when i receive my new ukaps triming kit  

please ignore that filter in the corner, it's not staying...just to help out untill the xp2 kicks in properly.


----------



## George Farmer (11 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Coming along nicely, Mark.

Have you considered putting another plant in front of the main rock?  Maybe some tenellus to soften the transition?  Or are you waiting for the P. helferi to grow?


----------



## Mark Evans (11 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

do be honest george, i was going to let the helferi grow and see how it looks. i would say that the tenelus would be too long? not sure though.


----------



## aaronnorth (11 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

You can trim it right down to the substrate


----------



## Mark Evans (13 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

ive just got back from my fishing trip, and ive come home to some major issues!....MEGA growth. the lights are out but with normal lights on i can see everything's gone mad!

one thing i have noticed is that the vivipara and e tennelus are growing much faster than the hc and p helferi. ive got to keep my eye on them!


----------



## George Farmer (13 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				saintly said:
			
		

> one thing i have noticed is that the vivipara and e tennelus are growing much faster than the hc and p helferi. ive got to keep my eye on them!


That's half the battle with aquascaping and the 'final shoot'.  Once you have mastered growing plants without algae (which you done remarkably well), getting them to appear nice altogether at once.  Pruning techniques become a priority.


----------



## Mark Evans (14 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> Pruning techniques become a priority



hi mate, this is the next big learning curve.for me george. i kinda learned how to trim stems in my first ever setup. but this is new ground!  :? the battle could be won or lost at this point.  

i should receive my new ukaps triming pack soon  



			
				aaronnorth said:
			
		

> You can trim it right down to the substrate



will the cut leafs die? currently the e tennelus is the tallest plant in there. 

when i come home from work i'll trim everything up and see what happens. i'll take some before and after pics.


----------



## johnny70 (14 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Looking fantastic! Awesome looking tank, beautiful  

JOHNNY


----------



## Mark Evans (14 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				johnny70 said:
			
		

> Looking fantastic! Awesome looking tank, beautiful



thanks johnny.   

to most these pics wont look that much different to my last one, but on closer inspection in reality, you can see the growth ive had in just a couple of days( ok ok im excited allright?  )
things are greening up lovely too.

ok a couple or 4 pics. im not going to trim until i researched trimming techniques for these plants. so those pics to follow. truth be known...im scared  :? 

i keep going on about e tennelus but it really spereading like a weed! im cutting the runners and shall give a haircut. 

p helferi reaching for the skys at last.

hc staying low and compact.

vivipara, getting tall (the flow from filter giving the appearence that its low)its also greened up alot.

all pics are just quick snaps!

FULL TANK SHOT





OVER TANK




SHOWING RUNNERS OF E TENNELUS, AND GROWTH OF P HELFERI




SIDE SHOT 




FROM MY SON'S PERSPECTIVE   




THANKS FOR LOOKING EVERYONE, 

MARK.
GEORGE! NICE WRITE UP IN PFK MATE.


----------



## aaronnorth (14 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

The one thing that bugs me about your tank is the substrate at the front where it isnt level   

I am not sure about e.tennulus, i have never kept it, you can thin it out by cutting leaves off, i'm pretty cetain you will be able to cut half way down the leaf. Just try it on 1 plant and watch the growth.


----------



## Mark Evans (14 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				aaronnorth said:
			
		

> The one thing that bugs me about your tank is the substrate at the front where it isnt level



well spoted birthday boy   it's for the shrimp to run up and down  



			
				aaronnorth said:
			
		

> i'm pretty cetain you will be able to cut half way down the leaf. Just try it on 1 plant and watch the growth.



good idea! (theres no thumbs up smiley  :? )


----------



## aaronnorth (14 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

 

I'm bored, i am waiting for everyone to come


----------



## aaronnorth (14 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

 

I'm bored, i am waiting for everyone to come


----------



## Mark Evans (14 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

after a trim, you can seee the rocks again,

ive cut all runners and replanted some p helferi.

i think this is the last pic for some while im going to let realy grow in then post.i must be boring everyone now. i just dont know when to stop!


----------



## LondonDragon (15 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Tank is looking great  I like that last photo of the trim you did, looking better everyday, don't stop posting lol we like photos


----------



## George Farmer (15 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Man, that midground in front of the main rock is begging for some Staurogyne!  The P. helferi everywhere else would look great.  

Just my Â£0.02.


----------



## Dan Crawford (15 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

I'd agree with Big G, i can send you some if you like? Georges nano is ready for a trim, it's only a nano so there won't be loads but your welcome to some for a UKaps donation


----------



## Mark Evans (15 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

deal dan!   

i'll pm you with details, unless the address i gave you previously will do?....i'll just pm you anyway!

donation coming ukaps way.


----------



## Mark Evans (15 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> Man, that midground in front of the main rock is begging for some Staurogyne! The P. helferi everywhere else would look great.



the begging's over mate    thanks to dan! and yourself, cus its from your old tank   ive just checked your nano journal out george! the Staurogyne does fit nicely. not overstated at all.

thanks for the advice guys.

i'll keep udates.


----------



## John Starkey (15 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Hi Saintly, great looking setup mate but my only little nit pic is, i feel you could do with some sort of slightly taller plant in front of the centre rock otherwise i love it,regards john


----------



## Garuf (15 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

I'd love to see some spiky moss in there to offer further variation in textures. just one or three pillows here or there with the downoi. I think that'd look sterling.


----------



## Mark Evans (15 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				john starkey said:
			
		

> only little nit pic is, i feel you could do with some sort of slightly taller plant in front of the centre rock



hi john, im hoping this sugestion from george will do the trick.  

 these are all new footsteps for me with these varietys of plants and also the iwagumi layout.

so hopefully,when ive finished this tank, i can take with me a whole load of new skills into my new optiwhite 120 x 40 x 45/60 (not sure yet) setup.
maybe one day i'll be up there with you experienced guys.  



			
				Garuf said:
			
		

> just one or three pillows here or there with the downoi



whats this mean garuf?...sorry mate new aquatic lingo


----------



## Garuf (15 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Sorry saintly, downoi is the common name of postogama helferi, and by pillows I mean moss tied to a rock then "planted", after a while the branch out and spread and form mossy pillows, like riccia but nice.


----------



## Mark Evans (15 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				Garuf said:
			
		

> Sorry saintly, downoi is the common name of postogama helferi, and by pillows I mean moss tied to a rock then "planted", after a while the branch out and spread and form mossy pillows, like riccia but nice.



cheers garuf   when you were talking about pillows and downoi i just had beds in my head for some reason    

do reckon moss would work? im trying to picture it....



			
				Garuf said:
			
		

> like riccia but nice.



not a riccia fan i take it ?


----------



## Garuf (15 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

I think moss would work, yeah. The green machine use it and a fair few people use it in competition iwagumis.









Spot the moss? I think it'd be a nice touch.


----------



## Mark Evans (15 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

yeh yor right garuf, i love it when you dont spot something when its there, but you'd miss it if it wasnt there!

i'll consider it mate. thanks for the input. and the effort!  watch this space....


----------



## Garuf (15 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Spiky or Taiwan moss would be the best 2 for this from my experiences. The best part is if you don't like them you can just as soon whip them out.


----------



## Lisa_Perry75 (15 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

I really love this tank Saintly, really special.


----------



## Mark Evans (15 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				Lisa_Perry75 said:
			
		

> I really love this tank Saintly, really special.



bless ya lisa!


----------



## Mark Evans (17 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

first of all, thanks to dan crawford for his contribution to my tank, several cuttings of Staurogyne sp.!  cheers mate.

secondly, in the same parcel ive received my newly bought ukaps aquascaping kit. you see for as long as ive been keeping plants, ive been using a  pair of KITCHEN scissors and a pair of good quality tweezers as shown below

so from this.......dont laugh  





to this... 





so you see, theres no reason for me not to get right  in there and trim!   these surgical scissors are fantastic. to be honest i dont know how ive managed without them :? 

ive pulled out several  e tennelus plants and p helferi. and infront of the main rock, planted the  Staurogyne sp. hopefully it'l take hold and i can then take more cuttings and move it around the tank where i want it.

aquascaping kit in use





and finaly the positioning of the  Staurogyne sp.....early days, so let it fill out!





 im going to give it a week or so before posting any pics just to let the Staurogyne sp root.

thansk for looking everyone.

 mark


----------



## Wayney (17 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Tanks Looking good as always Mark  8)  but when that Staurogyne sp. grows in it'll looking even better(if that's possible)  .
Is that the tank finished now or is there still some adjusting to do?


----------



## planter (17 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Tanks looking awesome saintly


----------



## LondonDragon (17 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Looking better and better mate, and I also love my UKAPS tool kit, really good quality, Dan's research paid off big time


----------



## Dan Crawford (18 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Ha ha, theres a lot of love for the tools hey? well that makes it all worth while!

Loving the tank as always mate and that Staurogyne is the perfect addition IMO.


----------



## Graeme Edwards (18 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

The tanks look great Saintly.

They say a man is only good as his tools. You have the best tools, so we expect the best skills!!!    No pressure. 
Joking a side, Its very important to have the right equipment. You will be suprised how the use of good tools and easy to use equipment will free up the creative flow of a budding and experianced aquascaper.

Keep up the good work. I look forward to your final shot. It will be intersesting to see how a former pro photographer will go about your new challange.

Cheers.


----------



## Mark Evans (18 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				cichlidsrgr8 said:
			
		

> Is that the tank finished now or is there still some adjusting to do?
> ?



good question, i'll probably fiddle around with it, you know, as ya do   



			
				planter said:
			
		

> Tanks looking awesome saintly
> Tanks looking awesome saintly



thanks planter, im rather looking forward to seeing yours  



			
				LondonDragon said:
			
		

> Looking better and better mate



cheers LD. i might be calling on you for some moss for my big tank 



			
				Dan Crawford said:
			
		

> Loving the tank as always mate and that Staurogyne is the perfect addition IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



thanks for the encouragement graeme   ive already phoned a local studio to price up some time in a studio.its not so much to take pics of my tank (which may end up looking average)more so i can practice some photo techniques.im realy fired up for it. obviously months away, but at least im enthusiastic about my photography again   oh, not so much pro, but semi pro   i hate the word pro anyway.it means nothing nowadays, overused word IMO

thanks everyone.


----------



## Mark Evans (19 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

well, its a rather quiet day today. and i got bored!   

i was thinking what graeme said ....



			
				Graeme Edwards said:
			
		

> It will be intersesting to see how a former pro photographer will go about your new challange.



and thought id try and brush up on some photography skills.    firstly i rang a local photography studio to enquire about hiring it! she wasnt interested, so it got me to thinking what i could at home!

i think with a couple of strobes and a big white background its possible to do it at home.

this pic is with

1 x white cardboard
1 x cheap 500w tungsten bulb 
1 x hairdryer   

my fish wouldnt play ball though! and my substrate is not straight, AND my plants havnt grown in yet.but you get the jist!

2 identical shots 1 under exposed 1 overexposed layered together with a bit of iggle piggle....voila! ive put it on a white background so when you click on it you'll see it borderless  or rather with a black border


----------



## Ray (19 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

A little too overexposed in the background and the surface IMO, but still really cool.  Please can we see a photo of how you took the photo, if you know what I mean?

I didn't realise all those Amano and CAU photo's used a fan on the surface to get the ripples - I feel kind of cheated


----------



## Mark Evans (19 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

well you cant please everyone   

yes its overexposed in the background but thats the intention. just look through aqua journal and you'll see amano setups in the same manner. infact some are even more blown out(over exposed)

each to there own i guess


----------



## Mark Evans (19 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*



			
				Ray said:
			
		

> didn't realise all those Amano and CAU photo's used a fan on the surface to get the ripples - I feel kind of cheated



yeh, a good technique IMO. how else could you do it?

another trick to get fish to shoal, which some of you might know....turn lights off briefly then switch them on agian. they'll all be together!


----------



## Mark Evans (19 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

this is only experimentation dont forget. if you were to see the full file on a 22inch monitor like i have, you might just change your mind 

ray ive edited the image using dodge and burn in photoshop, just to retain detail in the edges of rocks and ripple.

sure its image manipulation, but only with contrast nothing else. ive studied amano pics and im pretty sure he or his team uses the same techniques to some degree. he also has thousands of pounds worth of lighting, i have a cheap 500w bulb and a piece of cardboard


----------



## Mark Evans (20 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

well if nothing else, ive got a new signature  :? and a titkle for the scape   

"The Henge" what do ya reckon? it has an unaturel, man made, overgrown feel to it....hang on, thats everything a scape shouldnt be    

it was a good excerise anyway.

cheers mark


----------



## TDI-line (20 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

Nice work Saintly.


----------



## Graeme Edwards (20 Jul 2008)

*Re: saintlys 60 x 30 x36 optiwhite*

"The Henge" - Thats class!   

Love what youve done with the photo's, I knew you would come up trumps - well done that man!
You could be of great help to the members Mark, and me when it comes to the final shots.
Really cool looking shot, your going to go far mate!

Cheers.


----------



## planter (20 Jul 2008)

oooooooh  Niiiiice pics! 

Its a great tank but WOW what a difference good photography makes ..
Nice one saintly.


----------



## Mark Evans (20 Jul 2008)

TDI-line said:
			
		

> Nice work Saintly.



thanks TDI   



			
				Graeme Edwards said:
			
		

> Love what youve done with the photo's, I knew you would come up trumps - well done that man!
> You could be of great help to the members Mark, and me when it comes to the final shots.
> Really cool looking shot, your going to go far mate!



planter, thanks mate.long way to go yet though.  

wow, cheers mate. what a nice thing to say   the whole thing is still a learning curve for myself still, but with time...

im glad you like the title   

hope the title change dont confuse everyone.

im off to look for some new fish for the setup. the embers just dont do it for me. they'll go in the big tank now.
i'll update if i find a fish that i like   

cheers 

mark


----------



## Dan Crawford (20 Jul 2008)

love the shots mate, clearlyva great technique and it sounds like its been done in a budget? Could you tell us a bit about the technique its self?
I love the over exposed background, you can almost look straight through the tank, nice!


----------



## Mark Evans (20 Jul 2008)

Dan Crawford said:
			
		

> clearlyva great technique and it sounds like its been done in a budget? Could you tell us a bit about the technique its self?
> I love the over exposed background, you can almost look straight through the tank, nice!



basicly by bouncing a high powered light off the white background will suffice in giving a overexposed image.just remember to meter for the plants!  , then with using dodge and burn in PS7 you can pull back any lost detail in the ripples etc..theres also a technique which some landscape photographers use, which is to use 2 images 1 under and 1 over exposed,( this is where you use RAW because your using the same photo, but with 2 different exposures   ) combine the 2 in PS7 and play around with them, using certain over exposed parts and certain under exposed parts of the image to create one! have i lost you yet?   

if all go's to plan i'll make a mini journal on how i photograph the tank. good or bad.REMEMBER IM LEARNIG MYSELF! so dont shoot me down just yet.

you would have to experiment with exposures and idealy shoot in raw, because you have much more control over your images.
ive been researching at CAU'S WEBSITE and theres some interesting photography advice on that sight which i'll try and emulate in my tanks photo shoot. (more to do with the lighting)


----------



## George Farmer (21 Jul 2008)

The UK aquascaping photography benchmark has been set and will continue to be set, I think...

Neat idea on using multiple exposures.  I must try that myself.  I guess you could shoot in RAW and use HDR techniques with the same exposure too i.e. overexpose in RAW, save it, underexpose the same shot etc. etc.  and merge in PS using Layers.

Just need the fish to perform for your final shot, and that'll be a kick-ass 'scape.

Well done, Mark.  

Oh, and Happy Birthday, old man! lol


----------



## Mark Evans (21 Jul 2008)

George Farmer said:
			
		

> Neat idea on using multiple exposures. I must try that myself. I guess you could shoot in RAW and use HDR techniques with the same exposure too i.e. overexpose in RAW, save it, underexpose the same shot etc. etc. and merge in PS using Layers.



you got it! lanscape photographers do it alot. to reatain cloud details. not allways will you get the correct exposure for clouds and shadow details in one!





			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> Just need the fish to perform for your final shot, and that'll be a kick-ass 'scape.



thanks george, im still unsure about the embers but here's just to prove there in there   










im reckoning im only going to need to hire one flash head which will be pointed down from the top.



			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> Oh, and Happy Birthday, old man! lol



  thanks mate.


----------



## passerby* (21 Jul 2008)

HDR, i think u can get a free trial from photomatix's website but would this technique work on a tank, i thought HDR helps to bring out and  show detail in those light and dark areas through taking different exposure times  of around 3 to 5 photoâ€™s. also isnâ€™t HDR  normally associated with natural light and if u are using such bright and good quality lights surely there will be no real dark or shadowed areas with in the tank. 
 Im probs wrong but  I donâ€™t want to see someone waste there hard earned cash on an unneeded program of around $100...lol
 cheers â€¦..passerby


----------



## Mark Evans (21 Jul 2008)

i use raw shooter premium and the equvilant is high light contrast. i dont think we would invest in a program specificly just to deal with HDR. theres no need with a good raw editor and PS7.



			
				passerby* said:
			
		

> also isnâ€™t HDR normally associated with natural light and if u are using such bright and good quality lights surely there will be no real dark or shadowed areas with in the tank.



yes you are right mate,ive only suggested the idea. its not so much "you must do this " its more about trying new things, new ideas. for instance, this afternoon ive set up 2 lights instead of 1 and got better results instantly.remember if you DONT have high grade gear etc, there are ways around it to get a good image. those lights that you see are cheap, my expensive ones i sold   

mark.


----------



## Ray (21 Jul 2008)

saintly said:
			
		

> thanks george, im still unsure about the embers but here's just to prove there in there


I like them - they are class.  Problem is they are camera shy.  When I tried photographing my guppies yesterday one flash and they vanished into the weed.  Same when I turned a 250w desk lamp on the tank.  Normally those guys are all over the tank, so I don't know what Amano does?  Is it simple habituation - or do you just wait until they are in the right spot and "lights!" - snap the right shot first time before they bolt for cover?  George seemed to imply this in an earlier post...


----------



## Mark Evans (21 Jul 2008)

Ray said:
			
		

> Is it simple habituation - or do you just wait until they are in the right spot and "lights!" - snap the right shot first time before they bolt for cover?



hi ray, ive read on another site that switching the lights off briefly and then on again will fool the fish into shoaling up. and it works.

personaly im not using a flash head just yet so im not scaring them, but that will change ive also found that after feeding they become much more willing to swim around freely. maybe they think its feeding time? everytime i shoot i allways feed first   

the other thing with embers that ive noticed is that they come out and swim late in the day, chasing each other. great to watch.

my cardinals in the big tank know excactly when they get fed and que up. there easy to fool.


----------



## passerby* (21 Jul 2008)

forgot to say earlier when i posted, cracking tank with a real good sense of scale , i hope one day i will create a tank like this. its a real good thing that your photography skills will do this tank justice, its good to see as much effort going in to the planning and taking of the photos as much as the actual aquascaping it self....lOl
cheers....passerby


----------



## Mark Evans (21 Jul 2008)

thanks passerby,

here's a some photos to show you and others the power, and, what highlight contrast does to an image i think some software companys call it HDR.... 

 anyway.these images are underexposed to exagerate the effect.

image 1 and 2 (in screen)  as shot, 2 lights on background no HLC. the background is white.but shows un-even tones.












then with HLC turned up full, notice its only the high dynamic range thats gets the effect. the typical amano blown out look.










these are identical images just with one slider from 0 to 100! maybe this is not the correct way of shooting a fish tank, im not sure, but if it works use it  

i dont have an expensive studio, so i try and find ways without one.

cheers mark


----------



## passerby* (21 Jul 2008)

so bright and intense, the intensity is very strong and in your face but gives a nice glowing out line around the background plants it also brings a whole new level of sharpness to the photo making it cleaner and simplifying the whole aquascape and creating shines and shadows within the rocks to show more detail.


----------



## Mark Evans (22 Jul 2008)

hi passerby,

you should be helping us mate, youve got A level photography i see.  

i never studied it, just the net...you can probably tell  

mark


----------



## passerby* (22 Jul 2008)

ive only just finished my first year, (As) but the course im on is more arty then actually learning the required skills, the teachers ask stupid arty  questions like "how does that make you feel" which is annoying i must admit. 
 im way offf your standard. School cant teach experience now can they...
cheers passerby.....


----------



## Mark Evans (22 Jul 2008)

passerby* said:
			
		

> School cant teach experience now can they...



true, would i by right in saying you have an slr?... seriously just get out there and do it. alomg with your studies of course.  just bang on every door thats in front of you, until you bash it in. you'll get to where you want to be MUCH quicker  

dont get me wrong schools and studies are fine, but ive learnt as much in certain fields without study. and earnt good money at to boot! dependes how determined you are.

stick at my friend.

mark


----------



## passerby* (22 Jul 2008)

cheers... thats defo the approach i want to take im sending emails to all  the local photographers in my area i would love to be an assisant (just get my foot in the door)...and yeah i gota dslr nothing speacial just a 350d but does what i want it to do..anyway shouldent we speaking about the tank/plants ...lol
cheers.... passerby


----------



## Mark Evans (22 Jul 2008)

passerby* said:
			
		

> anyway shouldent we speaking about the tank/plants ...lol



 i need some advice on my e tennelus, cut the leafs back? will i get die off? everyone feel free to answer. there getting rather long now  :?


----------



## JamesM (23 Jul 2008)

What happened to the Vivipara, Mark?


----------



## Mark Evans (23 Jul 2008)

its still in there.its seems to be growin slow. itis growing because its sprouting up everywhere. the tennelus is king at the minute. :?


----------



## JamesM (23 Jul 2008)

Have you cut it back at all? Vivipara is usually quite tall - 30cm+


----------



## Mark Evans (23 Jul 2008)

mmm...i trimmed it once, only an inch or so. i had this stuff in my small tank. and allthough it  grew real thick and dense, it never grew tall. i got funny feelings its not vivipara!  :? 

twice i bought from aquafleur (MA) a different times and there both identical. could they be selling wrongly labeled?


----------



## Mark Evans (23 Jul 2008)

here's a pic from behind.

anyone confirm this a s vivpara? you can see it is reaching the top in places.






cheers


----------



## JamesM (23 Jul 2008)

It could be Eleocharis acicularis, which is much shorter and doesn't bud so much.


----------



## Mark Evans (23 Jul 2008)

arghhh, realy? i allways had my doubts. amano setups with vivipara look ace, and what i got just never matched it, why do maiden head sell things wrongly labelled?


----------



## Graeme Edwards (24 Jul 2008)

My knowladge of viviapar is limitted, but heres what i do know. Its quite possible you have it, put wait to see once its established first. What happens is the grass leaves will reach up, then they will get a bud like growth on them. From there another plantlet will grow. It can be a very messy plant is kept untamed. The idea is,if you like the matted look then let it grow, just like in the huge Iwagumi tank Amano has with 1000 cardinals in it. Or you will have to nip the plantlets off as the grass grows. Which im sure is very time consuming. Othere wise, if its just hight your after, then E-acicularus will do you fine.

Cheers.


----------



## Mark Evans (24 Jul 2008)

i guess this is what happens when you dont know what particular plants are  :? ive been looking on other site trying to find pics of  E-acicularus and what i have looks the same.

bit miffed.

anyway, i'll try and do what i can with what i got.

dan, george. the Staurogyne sp is coming good. i can see tiny new leafs


----------



## Mark Evans (25 Jul 2008)

well, i finaly got some advice on e tennelus (thanks LD for finding that post   ) it was advice i kinda knew ie trimminf runners etc. the one thing i didnt know about the post was a bit vague on. trimming the leafs!!!!!

i still dont know, so i just trimmed um! if its wrong its to late, if its right, lucky me. im surprised i didnt get much advice on the plant to be honest, oh well.

pic before trim (tonight)





10 minutes later.





i'll just have to wait and see

thanks for reading

mark


----------



## LondonDragon (25 Jul 2008)

Looking good Mark  maybe you should have tried on a small section and see before you did the whole tank  
Just have to wait and see now, at least we will all know how to trim it after you are done with it


----------



## JamesM (25 Jul 2008)




----------



## Mark Evans (25 Jul 2008)

the wrong thing to do james?


----------



## JamesM (25 Jul 2008)

No mate, just got a chuckle from what LD said. 

Fingers crossed for you


----------



## Mark Evans (25 Jul 2008)

oh well, ive searched the whole net for advice. no one seems to know. ive finaly (maybe to late)posted on a malasyian forum for advice    

i can allways up root it and find another plant maybe.


----------



## Mark Evans (25 Jul 2008)

getting close to an answer,

this is a quote from a malaysian site


 "I have a picture somewhere in this forum with E. tenellus as the foreground plant in 2.5 feet tank, way too tall, unless I trim it, the new growth is shorter, and to keep it shorter, with a bit of red, I needed a bit high lights... "

mark


----------



## Mark Evans (26 Jul 2008)

i got my answer   phew...ive done the right thing, actualy not short enough. if i remeber aaronnorth thought this idea would work but wasnt sure. (you were close mate)

from my malasyian aquascaping friend NASFISH (fantastic aquascaper, i checked some of his threads and pics etc! the kid obioulsy knows what he's up to, so i'll trust the advice)

anyway, this is what was said

"Grew E. tenellus before, each time, I trimmed it about one inch from the base. After that, I syphoned the debris, excess mulms etc around the base. During weekly water change, I did the same, whenever possible. If too dirty, it will disturb the regrowth, sometimes, worst case, it will rot instead, IME. 

Very nice tank, by the way  

Regards
_________________
Nasir "

so hopefully this chaps right, im going in to trim.
so another pick coming with severe haircut.  

here's after trimming....again. i actually like it like this. i can also see a small leafed stem coming from behind that large stone   mmmmmm......





mark


----------



## Ray (26 Jul 2008)

Interesting he treats it just like grass!  

Go on - link us to the Malaysian tank, I'll be in Malaysia from Tuesday so if you have any problems after trimming E. Tenellus I can sort him out for you   

Did you also PM our own James3200 - he has a lot of E. Tenellus in his Journal tank!

EDIT

Found the link: http://www.my-mac.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6233&highlight=

Mark says:


> ok nasfish, ive trimmed again. will this be ok?


I'll die laughing if nasfish comes back and says "no"


----------



## Mark Evans (26 Jul 2008)

i posted in the plant sectionn and mentioned it here several times. i dont like asking george, the mans busy. TGM didnt reply.

i had to do something fast. james3200?...i didnt realise.ill take a look.

theres no pics of nasfish's e tennelus, he'd just wrote from experience. ive seen some of his nanao's brilliant. but then they all seem to be good in asia   

what part of malaysia you going to ray?  my family is from there.and actualy my great grandfather is from switzerland.(ownded rubber plantation in malaysia)


----------



## Mark Evans (26 Jul 2008)

Ray said:
			
		

> I'll die laughing if nasfish comes back and says "no"



i could allways glue it back   

theres some good scapes from this guy. check out CREATIVE AQUASCAPE UNION to. good tips on photography.

go on people, expand your favourates list   

mark


----------



## Mark Evans (26 Jul 2008)

ok, maybe im losing the plot a little. ive had this idea in my head from the first day of setting this tank up. a small leafed stem behind the rocks.
well ive done it! 

ive just come back from maidenhead east bridgford with 2 pots of rotala wallichii...well i thought it was (ticket said so) but on searching this plant on the net it looks nothing like what  i got.

someone confirm this plant?






this is how it looks in the bigger picture. i want to eventualy trim it in such a way that i end up with a nice bush. might work, might not. hey ho!
the e tennelus in front of it should help hide the stems too.


----------



## LondonDragon (26 Jul 2008)

Maybe rotala indica! looks good though, just have to wait and see how it grows


----------



## jay (26 Jul 2008)

Hemmianthus?
If it is a Rotala then rotundifolia. or green.

Really looks like Hemmanthus Micranthemoides though Mark.

Btw, have'nt seen the tank i a couple weeks, looks superb!!

Crew cut tennelus!!!
Would'nt worry about it though, I do it fine.


----------



## Ray (26 Jul 2008)

saintly said:
			
		

> what part of malaysia you going to ray?  my family is from there.and actualy my great grandfather is from switzerland.(ownded rubber plantation in malaysia)


I'm going to be in KL, somewhere for diving, and also a trip to Thailand.  I'm British, my wife is Malaysian and her family live in KL.


----------



## Mark Evans (27 Jul 2008)

Ray said:
			
		

> I'm going to be in KL, somewhere for diving, and also a trip to Thailand. I'm British, my wife is Malaysian and her family live in KL.



a nice trip indeed


----------



## Mark Evans (28 Jul 2008)

for anyone thats intrerested, my e tenneluss has grown with avengence!


----------



## Lisa_Perry75 (28 Jul 2008)

I think that is rotala windli whatever. I saw some in a maidenhead aquatics. If this is one of the pots from aquafleur that is. I have found they tend to sell plants in their emersed form, which in stem plants can looks rather different. Rotala rotunfolia has roundish leaves which can be red in emersed form but the submerged form is long and thin.


----------



## Mark Evans (28 Jul 2008)

thanks lisa

rotala wallichii? yes thats what the tag said. but it looks NOTHING like what it should.


----------



## Lisa_Perry75 (28 Jul 2008)

WallichLi! Thats the one. I remember being in the shop trying to pronounce it. Watch out, mine has sent out lots of new growth but has shed lots of the emersed leaves. This could trigger ammonia release and therefore algae. Not that you have to worry about these things your tanks look perfect!


----------



## Mark Evans (28 Jul 2008)

Lisa_Perry75 said:
			
		

> WallichLi! Thats the one. I remember being in the shop trying to pronounce it.



 i dont even go there! i strugle with simple english words, let alone latin plant names.

regards amonia leaches, i change 50% 2 x weekly.

infact all the time this tank has been running, i havent tested the water once! for anything.

mark


----------



## Lisa_Perry75 (28 Jul 2008)

Thats the ethos of EI though isn't it? Though if test kits are so unreliable how come marine fishkeepers rely on them so heavily? Anyhoo thats for another thread...


----------



## JamesM (29 Jul 2008)

Vivipara






If it survives, I'll send some on to you


----------



## Mark Evans (29 Jul 2008)

JAmesM said:
			
		

> If it survives, I'll send some on to you



if you do i'll love you forever    for sure i can say that aint what i got. im going to question MA about that! 2 lots ive had. theres some bad labeleing going off at aquafleur me thinks.

thanks james! seriously

mark


----------



## Mark Evans (31 Jul 2008)

well, the tenneluss is growing fine. the stems are doing good too.

this weekend shall see me undertake another trimming session on the stems and the runners of e tennelus. nothing else to report really.
BTW dan, the plant u sent?...it died! ive an empty space in front of the big rock! ive got my thinking cap on.

also i'll try and get some of those jbl bulbs that george uses.





mark


----------



## JamesM (31 Jul 2008)

I think its missing something in the back left corner.. iirc you wanted Vivipara from the left corner 2/3's of the way across, so maybe add more of the stems.

Looks great though, the stems bring it alive more imo.


----------



## Dave Spencer (1 Aug 2008)

That stem plant looks like Rotala _sp_ green to me. It definitely isn`t HM.

Personally, I am not sure about Eleocharis vivipara in this set up. It has the wrong texture for me. If you do use it, keep it away from the stems as it gets totally intertwined. It is probably the highest maintenance plant I have had, with the possible exception of Riccia. Nevertheless, it is a great looking plant when it grows to its full potential in a tall, wide tank.

The ET looks great. Is it Tropica?

Dave.


----------



## Dan Crawford (1 Aug 2008)

saintly said:
			
		

> BTW dan, the plant u sent?...it died!


Was that the Staurogyne? strange, it just grows and grows in my tanks, real slow but it still does well. Shame that pal.


----------



## LondonDragon (1 Aug 2008)

Dan Crawford said:
			
		

> saintly said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The one I got of AE its not doing too great either, just getting some dead leaves at the lower end and can't really spot any real growth in the last couple of months since I got it.


----------



## Mark Evans (1 Aug 2008)

Dan Crawford said:
			
		

> Was that the Staurogyne? strange, it just grows and grows in my tanks, real slow but it still does well. Shame that pal.



yup! it was showing new growth, the all of a suden every leaf dropped of it. ive pulled it out and it had roots at least 3 inches long healthy white ones. its in the bin now.your better than me dan, thats why you can grow it mate   truth be known



			
				Dave Spencer said:
			
		

> That stem plant looks like Rotala sp green to me. It definitely isn`t HM.



well the ticket from aquafleur said rotal WallichLi. im still no wiser as to what it is,im realy not happy with the way i keep buying one plant and finding out its sometrhing else.i dont get that with tropica. i just know i like the look of it    and its growing. i dont hink now im going to go with vivipara. im liking the stems it gives it a totaly different look to the usual iwagumi thats planted with just hc and a bit of grass


----------



## Dave Spencer (2 Aug 2008)

I definitely isn`t Rotala wallichii. I am sticking with Rotala _sp_ green.

Dave.


----------



## ceg4048 (2 Aug 2008)

saintly said:
			
		

> Dan Crawford said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mark, if the roots were still white you had a fighting chance of recovery. The first suspect in any type of tissue loss should always be CO2.



			
				saintly said:
			
		

> Dave Spencer said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I trust Dave's assessment on this one. There is no way that plant is R. wallichi which typicallylooks something like this:






Cheers,


----------



## Mark Evans (2 Aug 2008)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> The first suspect in any type of tissue loss should always be CO2.



yet i have a green drop checker with 4 dkh water. everything else is thriving. there were no leafs at all when i pulled it, so surely it wouldnt grow back?

mark


----------



## Mark Evans (2 Aug 2008)

a side shot





my outflow. bit arty farty.





cheers


----------



## ceg4048 (2 Aug 2008)

saintly said:
			
		

> ceg4048 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nope, not true. White roots means the plant is alive. All cells in a plant contain the DNA and RNA for growing new leaves or new roots. The instruction set is there. A leaf can grow roots and a root can grow a leaf. This isn't a guarantee, just a possibility. Haven't you ever seen a crypt completely disintegrate and regrow later? Well, all that was left was roots.

Not all people eat the same or grow at the same rate. Similarly, not all plants use nutrients/CO2 as effectively. Also, the distribution of nutrients and CO2 within the tank is not homogeneous. Green DC may be OK for most plants in the tank while not OK for others.  A green DC isn't automatically OK if flow, light distribution and uptake efficiency vary in the tank. For staurogyne to grow in your tank configuration you may require nearer to yellow or increased flow. The plant may have come from a high CO2 tank to which it was adapted and had trouble adjusting to your lower levels. This phenomenon happens quite a bit when hobbyists send out specimens. The plants arrive, are placed in the tank and disintegrate within a week. The reason? Lower effective ambient CO2 and nutrient levels in the new tank. The minute you start to see disintegration this is a signal to crank up the CO2. Forget about the DC color. The plant knows more than the DC. 8) 

Cheers,


----------



## JamesM (3 Aug 2008)

Yup, I had less than a single leaf of P. Helferi stick behind my spray bar. After a week it had grown new roots ready for planting. Amazing stuff 8)


----------



## Mark Evans (3 Aug 2008)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> This phenomenon happens quite a bit when hobbyists send out specimens. The plants arrive, are placed in the tank and disintegrate within a week. The reason? Lower effective ambient CO2 and nutrient levels in the new tank. The minute you start to see disintegration this is a signal to crank up the CO2. Forget about the DC color. The plant knows more than the DC.



thanks clive, just shows my weaknes's now eh?   
even though the plant is out, ive up'ed my co2 and fert levels. from 2ml tpn+ to 3ml perday.



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Haven't you ever seen a crypt completely disintegrate and regrow later? Well, all that was left was roots.



ive never grown one,  ive heard of crypt melt though...ahhh, (penny drops)  

so if id of waited the chances are it could of grown back? i might order some from AE and see what happens.

thanks againg clive


----------



## Mark Evans (3 Aug 2008)

after a day of more fert and co2, the plants are pearling far more than they have ever done. is this a good sign clive? my drop checker is on its way to yellow now

mark


----------



## ceg4048 (3 Aug 2008)

Yep, pearling is always a good sign. This indicates food production via photosynthesis and imminent future growth using this food. The only thing negative about pearling is that all those bubbles mess up the photos.

Cheers,


----------



## Mark Evans (3 Aug 2008)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Yep, pearling is always a good sign



like ive never seen in this set up. my big tank pearls sooo much.

so i guess you are right clive regarding the higher levels of co2. 



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> The only thing negative about pearling is that all those bubbles mess up the photos.



yeh, i try to take my pics in the morning if i can.

thanks clive (we need a thumbs up smiley)

mark


----------



## Mark Evans (4 Aug 2008)

well after all the excitment of the aga, im all fired up and decided to trim my stems!

clive, things are greening up nicley now!  

i think this pics shows off the  beauty of opti white. see the back wall? same colour behind glass as it is without glass! no tint.





anyways, thanks.


----------



## ceg4048 (4 Aug 2008)

Yeah! Sweet. It takes guts to crank that needle valve, but if it's done carefully the results are unbelievable.   

Can you see now why I think that double dropchecker with a reference green bulb is so totally bogus? Aren't you glad you didn't shell out that Â£28?  

Cheers,


----------



## Mark Evans (4 Aug 2008)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Can you see now why I think that double dropchecker with a reference green bulb is so totally bogus? Aren't you glad you didn't shell out that Â£28?



totaly, begining to understand.   you cant real tell from the pic ,but the drop checker is lime green, and it dont seem to bother the fish or the shrimp. 

ive still got that big gap infront of the big stone, but as you might see ive planted Hygrophila corymbosa 'Siamensis 53b'. which i'll try and keep small and bushy, if it dont work out it'l come.  

mark.


----------



## JamesM (4 Aug 2008)

Looking good Mark!


----------



## Mark Evans (4 Aug 2008)

thansk people.

ive just had a reply from the MAC forums and i think ive found out what my stem is thanks to kevkoi at MAC.

he seems to think its this. explains why aquafleur labelled it wallichii. it looks identical to what i have! 

BINGO!

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/foru ... php?id=169


----------



## planter (5 Aug 2008)

Tanks looking great! hope with all the recent excitment of ADA you u are planning on entering into AGA?. With 3 scapes allowed per entrant The UK should be well represented this year. If I were you I would get that Rena scape in too!

I have a small confesion to make - I love The styling of this tank so much ive got myself a (very) similar set up for my next scape. Ive gone 60 x 30 x 30 opti white on the same cabinet as yours. Trouble is the Mrs has put her foot down and said one has to go to make way for the new one, So im facing tearing down what I think is best scape so far (dont know if I can bring myself to do it   )


----------



## aaronnorth (5 Aug 2008)

thats bad planter, which is that - i like all of your tanks   

i think if i had to choose it would be lusty glaze, the cube is stunning!


----------



## planter (5 Aug 2008)

Looks like lusty Glaze has to go   

Sorry didnt mean to hi jack your thread saintly   

I actually forgot to ask -

Are you trimming the HC reguarly, Ive used it a few times now and have just let it grow and grow until Ive either ripped it out (leggy) or re scaped. Im interested to know how it responds to trimming, Im guessing this is something you have to do from the start?


----------



## jay (5 Aug 2008)

Just gets better mark.

Still think that rotala is a young rotundifolia... sure i'l be corrected soon enough  

Understand about the Co2 also. My drop checker is the same colour, with no signs of ill affect towards my fishes.


----------



## Mark Evans (5 Aug 2008)

planter said:
			
		

> Looks like lusty Glaze has to go



oh no, i love that scape. i prefer it to coast TBH.


			
				planter said:
			
		

> Tanks looking great! hope with all the recent excitment of ADA you u are planning on entering into AGA?. With 3 scapes allowed per entrant The UK should be well represented this year. If I were you I would get that Rena scape in too!
> 
> I have a small confesion to make - I love The styling of this tank so much ive got myself a (very) similar set up for my next scape. Ive gone 60 x 30 x 30 opti white on the same cabinet as yours.



im flattered, truly. you'll love the opti white though   

i think i might just enter the AGA, just for judges comments, but i think i allready know where ive gone wrong on my setups. so judges wont surprise me. still got a month or so before the last day of entry? hope so, for growth on the henge. the water is the clearest its been since setup   just a waiting game on the plant side. 

i trimmed my hc a few weeks ago, i recieved advice from nasfish at MAC forums. he reckons you can trim it just like glosso, it appears that hc is also heat sensative! acording to stan chung at MAC.

i got this reply from him after pm'ing him.really decent chap actualy and a brilliant scaper.  

"As for stable growth I think it's with the season. It's particularly sensitive to heat. 
We have two tanks in an LFS for example but one is warmer[not under the air conditioner] and the other is doing better then it goes downhill with hair algae. LOL. Too many fishes and none of the kind that eats hair algae.

something to bare in mind. i certainly am.

my hc suffered recently with browning, now im not sure which remedy has worked...higher ferts and co2 or the water cooling back down!(it got to 30c ) runs at 24c. anyways im getting new growth again! and is pearling. maybe the combination ?

planter, the calls yours mate. as stan said to me, its about personal experience with plants.



			
				jay said:
			
		

> Still think that rotala is a young rotundifolia... sure i'l be corrected soon enough



 the debate continues!   



			
				jay said:
			
		

> Just gets better mark.



cheers jay.   but not without help from certain members here.(you know who you are   ) 

mark


----------



## aaronnorth (5 Aug 2008)

'the coast' has already gone!


----------



## Mark Evans (6 Aug 2008)

my wife has come back from her hols, and ive been given my orders. the henge had to be moved. so here it is in its new position.the lighting looks completely different with a different coloured wall!






mark


----------



## passerby* (6 Aug 2008)

HA HA ...looks like we  know who wears the trousers in your house..lol  i spose on the bright side at least now when u look at this tank you havenâ€™t got your big tank distracting youâ€¦. Stealing some of the well deserved attention  from  "The henge" . if you get what i mean.
cheers....passerby


----------



## aaronnorth (6 Aug 2008)

back to the bottom of the stairs, the tanks have swopped places   at keast it isnt as bad as the big one.


----------



## Mark Evans (7 Aug 2008)

ive just tested my water for amonia (first test ever carried out on this tank) 

from 10ml of water i get a reading of  1 mg/1 its middway on the table provided from sera.

i cant work out if this high   

anyone?


----------



## jay (7 Aug 2008)

Not familiar with Sera testers but any ammonia in a tank is bad in my book.

Water change?


----------



## Mark Evans (7 Aug 2008)

jay said:
			
		

> ammonia in a tank is bad in my book.
> 
> Water change?



im aware of the water changes, i do 2 x 50% a week. i also know about AS amazonia leaching amonia. (should call it AS amonia)
 are the readings high? if so i'll double my water changing routine.

mark


----------



## Dan Crawford (7 Aug 2008)

That sounds dodgy pal, i'd get another kind of test and try that. Your tank is clearly doing well so try not to obsess too much about it! Four 50% WCs in a week would be too much, no need mate, surely there is something wrong with the tester.


----------



## Mark Evans (7 Aug 2008)

Dan Crawford said:
			
		

> That sounds dodgy pal, i'd get another kind of test and try that. Your tank is clearly doing well so try not to obsess too much about it! Four 50% WCs in a week would be too much, no need mate, surely there is something wrong with the tester.



thanks mate, ive just done it again and its different again.

0.5mg/l for 10ml of water.


----------



## aaronnorth (8 Aug 2008)

testing can cause more trouble than it's worth   

AS usually leaks NH3 for about a month, this has been going 2 month now so i doubt it is that.

Test again and see what reading it gives, if it is lower, then there may of been a spike from somewhere?


----------



## JamesM (8 Aug 2008)

Mixing the substrate while planting?


----------



## Mark Evans (8 Aug 2008)

JAmesM said:
			
		

> Mixing the substrate while planting?



might be, you mean when i planted the stems?


----------



## JamesM (8 Aug 2008)

I guess its possible mate, not 100% sure though... Bin the test kits anyway


----------



## Mark Evans (8 Aug 2008)

JAmesM said:
			
		

> Bin the test kits anyway



done!

actualy, today the tank looks amazingly clear and vibrant more than usual! i acidentily spilt TPN+ in yesterday (lid was off the other side) there must of been at least 20ml go in. ive left it and today every plant looks stunningly green.

now i know i wont dose 20ml everyday, but this tells me my plants want more ferts....would you say folks? what do you reckon clive?   

mark


----------



## Mark Evans (8 Aug 2008)

oh and one other thing im running just 2 of my 24w t5's does anyone reckon all 4 would be too much? it looks even better with all of them on.
or is it asking for trouble?

mark


----------



## aaronnorth (8 Aug 2008)

you are not asking for trouble as such, you will just get more growth from the higher light though!

i might have to accidently on purpose drop 20ml of mine in too


----------



## ceg4048 (8 Aug 2008)

saintly said:
			
		

> JAmesM said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well.... gosh... heck yeah, I'd keep adding more until adding more didn't result in any more improvement. That's when you know you have presented the plants with unlimited availability of ferts. This is the credo of EI. But then again, I'm a fanatic as you well know.   

The thing is that TPN+ get expensive, so that's why we use the dry powders because for the same money you can more or less roll your own for a fraction of the cost and so you'll never have to worry about spillage. I mean, 20 whole milliliters, wooptie doo...  

The other thing to consider is that higher nutrient dosing causes higher growth rates and higher maintenance requirements. It puts pressure on to keep a cleaner tank, and, due to higher organic waste, you need to be more strict about water changes. So you really need to think about all that.

Cheers,


----------



## ceg4048 (8 Aug 2008)

saintly said:
			
		

> oh and one other thing im running just 2 of my 24w t5's does anyone reckon all 4 would be too much? it looks even better with all of them on.
> or is it asking for trouble?
> 
> mark


Do you remember what happened when they first loaded the "Jump" program for Neo? Well that's whats going to happen to you. 

First find your max growth rate using the lighting you have. Then slowly add more light and CO2 so that you just have the extra lighting on for a few hours at first for a few weeks, and then later extend this duration. This enables you to see trouble coming and to take appropriate action before things get out of hand.

Cheers,


----------



## Mark Evans (8 Aug 2008)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Do you remember what happened when they first loaded the "Jump" program for Neo? Well that's whats going to happen to you.



 genius!

clive, thanks so much my friend.



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> First find you max growth rate using the lighting you have. Then slowly add more light and CO2 so that you just have the extra lighting on for a few hours at first for a few weeks, and then later extend this duration. This enables you to see trouble coming and to take appropriate action before things get out of hand.



brill!

mark


----------



## aaronnorth (8 Aug 2008)

> Do you remember what happened when they first loaded the "Jump" program for Neo? Well that's whats going to happen to you.
> 
> First find you max growth rate using the lighting you have. Then slowly add more light and CO2 so that you just have the extra lighting on for a few hours at first for a few weeks, and then later extend this duration. This enables you to see trouble coming and to take appropriate action before things get out of hand.
> 
> Cheers,



The matrix explains so many things while being so conusing at the same time  :?


----------



## Themuleous (8 Aug 2008)

Nice one Mark, must be great coming down the stairs to that tank and scape every morning 

Sam


----------



## Mark Evans (8 Aug 2008)

Themuleous said:
			
		

> must be great coming down the stairs to that tank and scape every morning



it is rather nice, i remember when i first started with plants and my big tank is where this one is now, every morning coming down peering in....oh still cloudy! still got algae!   

it makes a change to look at something half decent.

mark


----------



## Themuleous (8 Aug 2008)

Haha I know that feeling!

Sam


----------



## fandango (9 Aug 2008)

I really enjoyed reading trough this journal. Great tank, great pictures. I like it a lot. Keep up the good work!


----------



## John Starkey (9 Aug 2008)

Hi Mark,really nice setup and the journal is a good read,just one thing why have you got the filter and the heater outside the cabinet?,regards john.


----------



## Mark Evans (9 Aug 2008)

john starkey said:
			
		

> just one thing why have you got the filter and the heater outside the cabinet?,regards john.



because  it wont fit inside. you sound like my wife john, she asked the same question.

mark


----------



## Mark Evans (9 Aug 2008)

here's why john, it wont go in the front. and the gap in the back is too small also. cables co2 restrict me too. i am untidy naturely


----------



## aaronnorth (9 Aug 2008)

> i am untidy naturely



your tanks are always clean and tidy lol

Maybe you should try a jungle scape


----------



## JamesM (9 Aug 2008)

I'd take a jigsaw to the back - you can always add supports if you need too.


----------



## Mark Evans (9 Aug 2008)

JAmesM said:
			
		

> I'd take a jigsaw to the back



that did cross my mind. it would be posable to cut a bit out and still have enough support. i could allways modify it. just cant be bothered. or i could buy a bigger tank to go with the filter   now there's a good idea.

mark


----------



## jay (9 Aug 2008)

saintly said:
			
		

> here's why john, it wont go in the front. and the gap in the back is too small also. cables co2 restrict me too. i am untidy naturely



See that image right there?

Thats just convinced my girlfriend to let me have an open top tank, luminaire, Iwagumi set up in the living room.

Thank you Mark


----------



## Mark Evans (9 Aug 2008)

jay said:
			
		

> See that image right there?
> 
> Thats just convinced my girlfriend to let me have an open top tank, luminaire, Iwagumi set up in the living room.
> 
> Thank you Mark



nice to be of assistance. jay. im still trying to convince mine


----------



## John Starkey (10 Aug 2008)

saintly said:
			
		

> JAmesM said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hi Mark,i am sure a bit of solid two x two would be plenty as a middle support on that size setup and then the wife will be happy and the whole thing would look absolutely top notch,regards john


----------



## Mark Evans (12 Aug 2008)

john starkey said:
			
		

> ,i am sure a bit of solid two x two would be plenty as a middle support on that size setup and then the wife will be happy



this weekends mission.

all the embers are out of this tank, for seem reason i couldnt get them to feed properly  :?  there also in big tank.

this weekend shal see an algae crew going in. theres only 1 otto and 2 shrimp at the mo. ive trimmed my stems again tonight and all is looking good due to the new co2 levels and ferts. thanks clive   

e tennelus has been trimmed and ive taken a bit of the hc. you can see the stems are starting to bush, so not long till this scape is finished i reckon.


mark.


----------



## Mark Evans (15 Aug 2008)

ive held out too long without posting a pic...it's killed me.  

heres an update. clive your experience has payed off in my set-up mate  . the tank is looking the best its ever looked. green lush vibrent. the hc is going mad. it will need replanting i reckon.

pearling like  #'?*#   

the first pic is without the filters running and left for 5 mins to show the pearling and the bubbles on top.













this with a slightly different white balance setting in RAW.taken yesterday.













thanks

mark


----------



## Joecoral (15 Aug 2008)

that's looking great mate, some lovely lush growth you got going on there!
I'm so jealous!


----------



## Mark Evans (15 Aug 2008)

Joecoral said:
			
		

> hat's looking great mate, some lovely lush growth you got going on there!
> I'm so jealous!



hello joe again, we should stop meeting like this   

thanks again.

mark


----------



## George Farmer (15 Aug 2008)

Looking mighty fine mate.

One thought - you may consider doing something with the (incredibly healthy) HC lawn.  At the moment it is the weakest part of the aquascape as it's two dimensional.  Even pruning it downward toward the front glass would increase the sense of depth, so it's not 'squashed'.

You may notice some of the top 'scapers have open areas for this reason.  One solid carpet across the foreground lacks texture.

I know I'm nit-picking, but you deserve this attention!  It's meant as a compliment really...

Oh, and super photography, just for a change...


----------



## Mark Evans (15 Aug 2008)

George Farmer said:
			
		

> I know I'm nit-picking, but you deserve this attention! It's meant as a compliment really...



hi george, long time no speak mate. nit pick all you like. its how we/ i learn.  

i totally understand what your saying. your bang on really.

i wished i'd kept that sand front right in the beginning. these are all things that im thinking about in the next scape.  

the hc, needs a good trim. this seems to be my downfall at the minute....letting things overgrow   
hope things are ok for you out there.

mark


----------



## Dan Crawford (15 Aug 2008)

saintly said:
			
		

> the hc, needs a good trim. this seems to be my downfall at the minute....letting things overgrow


It's all a big fat learning curve pal and you've come a great distance in a minute amount of time! Love ya work.
EDIT - oh yeh, your photography makes me feel like a child in a man's world   (no comments George!)


----------



## LondonDragon (15 Aug 2008)

Tank is looking awsome Mark and those photos even better  you sure you don't want to swap your 5D for my 5D???? 

Keep up the prunning or it will end up like in my tank, having to dig it all up as you also found in your large scape, looking forward for the changes you plan for you large tank and see what you do with the HC on this one.

George has a good point as always, I have seen Tom Barr prune is HC at the front of the glass, makes a huge different straight away, you should check it out.

Keep up the good work and photography


----------



## Mark Evans (15 Aug 2008)

LondonDragon said:
			
		

> George has a good point as always, I have seen Tom Barr prune is HC at the front of the glass, makes a huge different straight away, you should check it out.



any links LD? love to see it.i'll trim tomorrow 



			
				Dan Crawford said:
			
		

> It's all a big fat learning curve pal and you've come a great distance in a minute amount of time! Love ya work.



ta dan  love yours more though.

mark.


----------



## LondonDragon (15 Aug 2008)

saintly said:
			
		

> any links LD? love to see it.i'll trim tomorrow


Course, thought you might have spotted it elsewhere in the forum:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/635795-post338.html

Straight to the post, you can view the entire journal great wood and great looking tank.


----------



## Mark Evans (16 Aug 2008)

thanks LD. i remember seeing this thread. i didnt remember the hc though. 

i fully understand the hc trimming process now    did tom think of that? 

going to give it a go i think. 

mark


----------



## Mark Evans (16 Aug 2008)

ive gone insane.... ive ripped my hc out


----------



## Wayney (16 Aug 2008)

Well they always say that geniuses are always slightly insane   

What made you do that then?


----------



## Mark Evans (16 Aug 2008)

cichlidsrgr8 said:
			
		

> Well they always say that geniuses are always slightly insane



 i can hear sirens....ooo, a man with a white jacket is knocking at my door....  

now seriously, it needed doing. it was 2 inches thick. ive never felt so anxious doing something...am i doing right thing?....am i doing wrong thing?.... :? 
even more anxious when i added the sand   

i can see it in the future. you may hate IT, but its all experimentation. its not like its my last scape in the world. should look better when the newly planted hc grows over the sand slightly.





mark


----------



## Garuf (16 Aug 2008)

I hope to god you put a barrier in to stop the substrates mixing up?
I didn't the first time and I can tell you it was hellish trying to keep it tidy. I've got one in there now and so far it seems to work a charm.


----------



## Wayney (16 Aug 2008)

It should look rather dashing when it's finished mate, did you use a divider between the AS and sand?


----------



## Mark Evans (16 Aug 2008)

Garuf said:
			
		

> hope to god you put a barrier in to stop the substrates mixing up?



nah, the whole front is sand. was quite a job to do full of water. so when the hc grows over the " border line it should be too bad. same as any ada setup really.

i put a peice of lead between the AS and sand dividing line, scooped the AS out, filled with sand took lead out. there was still a bit of AS in the bottom which has mixed...which you can see.i''ll pick the bits out. 

mark


----------



## Garuf (16 Aug 2008)

I found the best way of doing it is once you have your divider in place is to just siphon of the little bits that are left, also it has the added bonus of getting out and settled much that has been disturbed. 
I love the look of the sand in scapes but I've always found it to be a hassle without boarders to prevent mixing.


----------



## Mark Evans (16 Aug 2008)

Garuf said:
			
		

> I love the look of the sand in scapes but I've always found it to be a hassle without boarders to prevent mixing.



thansk garuf, it was after looking at your setup that swayed me. after george commented on the hc, that was what i was looking for. an excuse to do it.

so thanks to you and george. ive done the quickest job (and i mean quick about 30 seconds to be precise)  of emulating the hc re grown to give some of you a clue as to how it may look.


----------



## Garuf (16 Aug 2008)

I really like that, if when it's grown in you don't like it think about using mini pelia as an alternative, it's a moss but you get such nice texture from it especially in small setups. 
Also, I'm glad I proved an inspiration.


----------



## George Farmer (16 Aug 2008)

Better.

Try some larger grains of gravel or tiny rocks for the transition from sand to HC.  Hairgrass and/downoi accents in HC would be nice too.  The more texture the better, whilst maintaining a natural appearance.


----------



## Mark Evans (16 Aug 2008)

George Farmer said:
			
		

> Try some larger grains of gravel


done!  



			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> tiny rocks for the transition from sand to HC.


tomorrow!  



			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> Hairgrass and/downoi accents in HC would be nice too


actualy, garufs having a handfull of the downoi. and ive put a load in my big tank. i didnt realise how well that had done.  
i might buy some hairgrass.



			
				Garuf said:
			
		

> I really like that, if when it's grown in you don't like it think about using mini pelia as an alternative, it's a moss but you get such nice texture from it especially in small setups.


i'll consider it mate.

im chomping at the bit to set up my rena


----------



## jay (16 Aug 2008)

Oh my God!! You've ruined it Mark!!!
Totally ruined it!!
I suppose you better give the whole set up to me and I'll see if I can save it in any way  

Honestly though mate, its very brave to do that and its worked a treat. 

Good stuff.


----------



## Mark Evans (17 Aug 2008)

jay said:
			
		

> Oh my God!! You've ruined it Mark!!!
> Totally ruined it!!
> I suppose you better give the whole set up to me and I'll see if I can save it in any way



its yours mate.

well im writing this post after looking at tdlines tank   have to say its pretty good.

anyway heres a pic after the waters fully cleared and added a few small rocks and a few grains of gravel (which you cant see that well)

you can also see the newly planted hc, now ive cleared the front area, runners of e tennelus are already coming through to the front!  DAMN stuff   

theres 3 elusive embers in there which are going. ANY IDEAS ON A FISH? EVERYBODY!





mark


----------



## George Farmer (17 Aug 2008)

How much water changes did you do, post HC removal?  Lots I hope, as big 'upsets' like that are massive algae inducers.

I can't see any pics at the moments, as the connection here is so poor. I trust it looks good though...

Go to MA @ Crowland for fish.  You'll find something you'll like.  Keep it simple IMO, not too gawdy, one species.  Gold tetras (they're more silver than gold) or something similar.  Say 'hi' to Sarah from me too.  She's the only lady member of staff in there.


----------



## TDI-line (17 Aug 2008)

Lovely rescape Saintly, your top of the class asusual.


----------



## Mark Evans (17 Aug 2008)

George Farmer said:
			
		

> How much water changes did you do



as explained in the pm sent, but for everyone else....

50% out took hc out, 5%more to get debris. much there wasnt much in the way of crap or clouding. filled. today 25% w/c everything looking  fine. hc pearling   

i'll venture to MA next week to look for some fish.

mark


----------



## Mark Evans (17 Aug 2008)

TDI-line said:
			
		

> Lovely rescape Saintly, your top of the class asusual.



thanks, top of the class?     second to you my friend. (bowing) is that spelt right?

mark


----------



## Garuf (17 Aug 2008)

I read that the stand looks "ghastly" with the doors can you show what you mean by that please?


----------



## Joecoral (17 Aug 2008)

Like this


----------



## George Farmer (19 Aug 2008)

Looks nice with the open sand, Mark.  I knew it would...

Should look great once the HC grows in around the rocks, by which time your stems etc. will nice and mature.  

Not long 'til final photo shoot time.  You may make the AGA deadline, hopefully.

What are you future plans?  

Keep this going for a while, maintaining it in it's current form?

Or slowly evolving it?

Or complete re-scape?

Decisions, decisions...


----------



## beeky (20 Aug 2008)

I'll second George's recommendation of gold tetras. Nice and subtle but have a lovely 'sheen' to them.

AGA deadline is 15th September (just had a look!), so I might enter myself, just for a bit of fun and to boost the UK entries!


----------



## Mark Evans (20 Aug 2008)

beeky said:
			
		

> I'll second George's recommendation of gold tetras.



gold tetras it is then.

ive gone in for yet another trim of the e tennelus and grass. i think im going to uproot and re plant the p helferi as thats taking over too.



			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> Not long 'til final photo shoot time. You may make the AGA deadline, hopefully.
> 
> What are you future plans?
> 
> ...



ooo, so many questions, good ones though. well, im pretty sure this will be entered in to the aga, if not just for the constructive criticism. (i'll probably still cry at) 

when this tank has finally got to its final look, (when the stems fill out and hc grows in again about 6 weeks i reckon) im ripping it down and starting again. you see george ive got to get as many scapes under my belt as possible to try and home in on my scaping techniques. as james m pointed out a while back, this is just an amano copy realy and dont stand up on its own merit, or my merit rather. ive got ideas buzzing around my head at the minute and im itching to get another scape under way. new scapes and more importantly new plants. ive still only grown a handful of plants and need to expand on that if im to succeed in trying something new.
hope all is well out there!

heres tonights pic after trim. you can see the p helferi is looking ok buched up, i want to split it and put a few stems to the left of the main rock to fill that space.im sure the stem will reach the surface by next week so that will be trimmed again. and then by 4 weeks more things should be as i want.( crossing fingers) ignore all the kit in the tank





 you know practice makes perfect and all that. i could let the tank develop but i feel ive got too much to learn.


----------



## aaronnorth (20 Aug 2008)

There is glowlight tetras that i mentioned earlier


----------



## Mark Evans (20 Aug 2008)

aaronnorth said:
			
		

> There is glowlight tetras that i mentioned earlier



yeh i remember mate, not sure there for this set up. nice fish though.


----------



## Ray (21 Aug 2008)

Hi Mark, I really like this, its even better than the version on my desktop   

I wonder if the sand should slope ever so slightly back from the front glass up to the Aquasoil, adding depth?  I also wonder if in due course it will look better with or without the stems - I guess that depends if it is an Iwagumi or an Aquascape - it seems to be metamorphosing from the former to the latter?  You might end up with more than one scape from this "evolution" that is worthy to be submitted to the AGA...

Its astonishing to see this tank has only been running 10 or 12 weeks and its come so far...  Motivation to persist in my own efforts...


----------



## Mark Evans (21 Aug 2008)

Ray said:
			
		

> its even better than the version on my desktop



 i can send you another if you like!



			
				Ray said:
			
		

> I wonder if the sand should slope ever so slightly back from the front glass up to the Aquasoil, adding depth? I



i hear ya ray   your so right, im attempting this at the weekend  :? 



			
				Ray said:
			
		

> I also wonder if in due course it will look better with or without the stems - I guess that depends if it is an Iwagumi or an Aqua scape - it seems to be metamorphosing from the former to the latter?



great point ray! i too wonder. it lends itself to be either IMO when i trim everything real love it gives a sense of wide open space, a classic iwagumi maybe? but when everything over grows especially the stems, it has the appearance of a nature aquarium? not sure if im right. to be honest ray, im loving the stems. ive never had stems that look so healthy and bushy before and its nice to practice trimming techniques.



			
				Ray said:
			
		

> You might end up with more than one scape from this "evolution" that is worthy to be submitted to the AGA...


thanks ray, certainly a confidence boosting statement   i would say i would manage one version of this tank before times up for entrys, yes sure it could evolve into something else, just not in time.
but like i said before, i'm planning on ripping it down and starting again. i think with another iwagumi but much more tiered to create the sense of depth. like you suggested with the sand front   

     i wont be using e tennelus in the same way ive used it in this set-up. it will probably be used towards the back in such a small tank. i know lots of people are against riccia but i certainly want to include some riccia features. im always trying to think of different uses for the stuff. actually i remember seeing on a Malaysian scaping site one guy who attempted to tie it to a balloon in his set-up....floating balls of riccia.   innovators i reckon.


			
				Ray said:
			
		

> ts astonishing to see this tank has only been running 10 or 12 weeks and its come so far... Motivation to persist in my own efforts...


it has developed rather quickly, not all of my own doing though. i owe so much to guys like george for his early advice on planting techniques etc thanks mate. and to very helpful chaps like clive (ceg)
for his outstanding advice on ferts, co2, and lighting schedules. cheers clive    (i'm getting all teary now   )and how could i forget everyone that's posted on this thread.

peace and love to you all my fellow ukaps members   

mark


----------



## George Farmer (21 Aug 2008)

saintly said:
			
		

> you see george ive got to get as many scapes under my belt as possible to try and home in on my scaping techniques. as james m pointed out a while back, this is just an amano copy realy and dont stand up on its own merit, or my merit rather. ive got ideas buzzing around my head at the minute and im itching to get another scape under way. new scapes and more importantly new plants. ive still only grown a handful of plants and need to expand on that if im to succeed in trying something new.


Totally with you there.  Your set up is perfect for churning out 'scape after 'scape.  You should get 3 or 4 decent 'scapes a year.  And practice makes perfect, of course.  Use your bigger tank for longer-term stuff maybe. 

Also there's nothing wrong with copying Amano 'scapes when starting out.  We all learn to walk before we can run...



			
				saintly said:
			
		

> hope all is well out there!


Not too bad, thanks mate.  Half way now...


----------



## Mark Evans (23 Aug 2008)

George Farmer said:
			
		

> You should get 3 or 4 decent 'scapes a year.



3 or 4 scapes a year would be great, decent ones would be a bonus. but yes, thats the plan george. small tank for practising and the big tank for long term scapes. 

today ive started using all 4 lights, dangerous i know, but as Clive said earlier if everything is balanced ie lights ferts co2 i should be able to run a stable set-up. im trying to "force" some growth ready for my entry for AGA im not posting any more pics of the set-up until after the AGA. ive  added another plant so we'll see how it fits in, nothing drastic though.

when your up against the likes of planter, dan, zig and george i dont hold much hope, but like everyone else the critique will come in handy! 

its going to kill me not to post any more pics but ive got the other tank i suppose   

mark


----------



## aaronnorth (24 Aug 2008)

> im not posting any more pics of the set-up until after the AGA



we'll see about that


----------



## Mark Evans (24 Aug 2008)

honestly, its true.


----------



## John Starkey (27 Aug 2008)

Hi Mark,i went to TGM on tuesday and i can tell you for sure that the cuttings i sent you are P,stellata and not L,aromatica,it seems the pots were labeled up wrong and Jim and i didnt notice the differance,i saw L,aromatica in one of jims large tanks and you can see the differance,so i am a bit annoyed with myself because i have grown P,stellata before,sorry mate regards john


----------



## Mark Evans (27 Aug 2008)

john starkey said:
			
		

> ,sorry mate regards john



john, dont worry. its still a fantastic plant. it looks good in my scape thats all that matters. it could be called floppydoppydingdong for all i care   and you were kind enough to send in the first place.

thumbs up to clive for the good spot.

mark


----------



## Ray (28 Aug 2008)

saintly said:
			
		

> its going to kill me not to post any more pics but ive got the other tank i suppose


Its certainly killing me!  A whole week and no Henge update is unheard of.  I'm not aware of any rule banning pre-publication of AGA entries?  In fact some people enter the same scape in ADA and AGA in the same year...

Come on Mark, we both know that posting pictures of monkeys at the zoo (lovely though they are) is just displacement activity, like a smoker who quit sucking sweets.  Really you want to show us how the Henge is getting on (or did going to 4 tubes cause algae and its gone to seed?  )

Go on, just one more picture, you know you want to


----------



## George Farmer (28 Aug 2008)

I say keep us in suspenders...


----------



## a1Matt (28 Aug 2008)

Ray said:
			
		

> Really you want to show us how the Henge is getting on (or did going to 4 tubes cause algae and its gone to seed?  )
> 
> Go on, just one more picture, you know you want to



That is really sad to hear that the henge is covered in Algae. A great tank totally ruined overnight.   

Sorry, what was that you I hear you say Mark ' Oh no it isn't ...and here are the pics to prove it!'


----------



## JamesM (28 Aug 2008)




----------



## Mark Evans (28 Aug 2008)

ooo, im popular again   

oh ray, you got me chomping at the bit now...theres nothing realy new to report. except the new growth of algae on my hc. and my  e tennelus which is dieing off   

i told you i was new to this lark! 4 tubes?...mehhh...im putting another 2 on it! i love the luck of that freshly grown hair variety.

i dont think this will be ready for the 15th sept   

mark


----------



## JamesM (28 Aug 2008)

Green water is where its at mate. You're not done until you get it


----------



## jay (28 Aug 2008)

Nah, don't think your a true Don till you've done a week blackout to get rid of the fluff  

Anyway Mark, you not think a selection of your previous pics would'nt be good enough for the 15th?
Don't think the scape needs to be in existence when they judge it?


----------



## Mark Evans (28 Aug 2008)

JAmesM said:
			
		

> Green water is where its at mate. You're not done until you get it



i got that too

.





			
				jay said:
			
		

> Nah, don't think your a true Don till you've done a week blackout to get rid of the fluff



and that....

nah not really guys...  just thought id play around   

mark


----------



## Mark Evans (28 Aug 2008)

im sorry , realy i am...back to the silent journal


----------



## jay (28 Aug 2008)

Bet theres nothing wrong with it and you've done some scaping and created some form of genius and now you're doing back flips trying not to show us


----------



## Mark Evans (28 Aug 2008)

jay said:
			
		

> Bet theres nothing wrong with it and you've done some scaping and created some form of genius and now you're doing back flips trying not to show us



i wish, no its still the same.no genius in my household.

 theres some riccia in there now ( nooooooooooooooooooo, i hear the cries)  but thats about the only change. the p helferi is bushing out. the stems are bushing out too. ive trimmed them tonight. the e tenneluss is doing the usual "crawling all over the place" thing that it does. im desperate now to get a good sized algae crew in there. and then pich a good shoal of fish.

mark


----------



## Mark Evans (28 Aug 2008)

ahhh, what the heck. this is for you ray....you can see the hc has started to grow back in now   

this is after tonights stem trim


----------



## jay (28 Aug 2008)

Do't see the problem with riccia, when its kept trim and isn't allowed to get a bit straggly.


----------



## JamesM (29 Aug 2008)

hahahaha! we knew you'd cave in and post pics 

Looking good too


----------



## aaronnorth (29 Aug 2008)

JAmesM said:
			
		

> hahahaha! we knew you'd cave in and post pics
> 
> Looking good too



  

the riccia is a good addition, i like it.


----------



## jay (29 Aug 2008)

I prefer litle accents of reiccia, rather than giant clumps or big mats of the stuff.


----------



## Mark Evans (29 Aug 2008)

oh well, at least aaron likes it. i post, no comments. i dont post, comments    us amateur scapers have to rely on quick fixes to fill holes in sparse gaps. praise be to riccia


----------



## aaronnorth (29 Aug 2008)

saintly said:
			
		

> oh well, at least aaron likes it. i post, no comments. i dont post, comments    us amateur scapers have to rely on quick fixes to fill holes in sparse gaps. praise be to riccia



dont worry, nobody likes my tank either


----------



## LondonDragon (29 Aug 2008)

Tank is looking great Mark, just think now its too open at the front! before was HC pressed against the glass and now a large shore! I would plant it out a bit further with HC, just keep it lower this time.


----------



## JamesM (29 Aug 2008)

I already said it was nice  I agree with LD though mate...


----------



## George Farmer (29 Aug 2008)

Scape looks good.  There's a lot of growth left yet before deadline...


----------



## Mark Evans (29 Aug 2008)

George Farmer said:
			
		

> There's a lot of growth left yet before deadline...



i dont think it will be ready to be honest.like ld suggests the shore is too big.i'll let the hc take it back. theres going to be no algae crew this weekend neither, im working sat and sunday   



			
				JAmesM said:
			
		

> I already said it was nice  I agree with LD though mate...



i know mate, i sounded like a spoilt little brat


----------



## aaronnorth (29 Aug 2008)

you might aswell enter it for feedback. The judges will probobaly say it isnt ready but they will let you know any anything else.


----------



## Ray (30 Aug 2008)

Hey relax Mark, it'll be ready.  You need to adjust the front shore so it slopes up to the HC, trim one last time knowing how much things will grow in 10 - 14 days so it is exactly how it should look then.  I think in 2 weeks your stems will be touching  the surface, HC will have covered the shore and the E. tenellus and P. Helfrei will be even wilder than ever.

It will be tight but that's how it is with deadlines   .  On the bright side, at least you don't have to contend with disgusting brown surface scum and a WWI battlefield scene of crypt melt like me   - I'm quite jealous!


----------



## Mark Evans (30 Aug 2008)

Ray said:
			
		

> Hey relax Mark, it'll be ready.



hopefully ray, hopefully. the stems were at the surface a few days ago, but i trimmed them. it will be the last trim all round before the 15th....13th realisticly 

if in 2 weeks the riccia slate tio the left of the maIN STONE HASNT GROWN, i'll trim p helferi and plant as a quick fix. this area has been a pain!





im pretty sure the hc will cover the substrate by then, you can see it's "creeping" which im going to leave. e tennelus is growing in amongst the hc which also im going to leave alone. if i dont make the deadline i dont think i'll put the tank in to the aga. i'll persist in getting this scape looking as good as it can get though.  

my one otto is fattening up and soon he shall have some tank mates.


----------



## planter (30 Aug 2008)

Hey Mark,

Having just spent some time looking back over this journal I just wanted to stop by and say how much ive enjoyed it. I really do hope you enter the AGA with 'The Henge' . The UK needs YOU saintly   

Nice work pal


----------



## a1Matt (30 Aug 2008)

cheers for the latest pics Mark.

Good luck hitting the deadline, but if not, there is always next year


----------



## Mark Evans (3 Sep 2008)

another trim has occurred tonight and everything seems to be ok. i seriously doubt it will be ready in time for aga. but hey who cares  8) 

im really starting to understand about textures, layers and positioning of plants with this aquarium. some of it working some of it not. there's one or 2 spots in this tank that seem "empty" but slowly and surely i'll fill these gaps.

i still don't have an algae crew and boy don't i know it. the usual task of amano shrimp cleaning my rocks is defiantly lacking in this set up. soon though...

anyways hc is growimg in at a quick rate now. and my unknown stem is bushing nicely. riccia looks good too   

cheers


----------



## aaronnorth (4 Sep 2008)

get a nerite, they are amazing at cleaning!


----------



## Mark Evans (4 Sep 2008)

aaronnorth said:
			
		

> get a nerite, they are amazing at cleaning!


might do.

ive just recieved my new tubes from PM! thanks mate. ive put them in and cannopt believe the difference. so much whiter. luvely. not that horrid pink. we'll see how they go.

heres a pic to show you. hopefully you'll see the differenece. ignore the alagae on the lilly pipe.   had no time what with work!

usual ytheres a pink glow on the back wall. i'll do a compare shot later.


----------



## Mark Evans (4 Sep 2008)

im blown away with the light colour rendition of these tubes.greens are so green.   cant thank you enough PM   

will the higher K (lights) help with the plant growth?

so i have 1 plant pro and currently one orsam lumilux skywhite.you can just see the pink and white on the surface of the water.

 here's a couple more pics. ecxuse the dirty hardware AGAIN


----------



## aaronnorth (4 Sep 2008)

looks lovely   

Kelvin doesnt matter. The reason it is reccomended that you have a K between 5000-11 000k is that it isnt to pink, or to blue. Just choos a tube which suits your eye (CRI). - Although it seems you have done


----------



## Mark Evans (5 Sep 2008)

5 amano shrimp added  

people go to MA @ cambridge! awesome.


----------



## Mark Evans (5 Sep 2008)

with all the kit out.




im begining to think it maybe ready for the 15th!    just need a nice shoal of something now....sharks maybe?


----------



## JamesM (5 Sep 2008)

Nice, Mark 

Could you shape the stems on the right a little better, to maybe look like a rising sun?


----------



## Mark Evans (5 Sep 2008)

JAmesM said:
			
		

> Could you shape the stems on the right a little better, to maybe look like a rising sun?



yeh, i reckon. it's too linear dont you think on the right?  :?


----------



## JamesM (5 Sep 2008)

My first thought was it needed some stems in the left corner, but you already have a nice line on the left side of the existing stems, so why not shape up the right too? Looking good though mate, wasn't keen on the sand at first tbh, but its growing on me


----------



## Mark Evans (5 Sep 2008)

JAmesM said:
			
		

> My first thought was it needed some stems in the left corner, but you already have a nice line on the left side of the existing stems, so why not shape up the right too? Looking good though mate, wasn't keen on the sand at first tbh, but its growing on me



cheers bud!

i'll go and trim it now. it has been bugging me for a while.


----------



## JamesM (5 Sep 2008)

Bit at a time though mate, don't go nuts with it


----------



## Mark Evans (5 Sep 2008)

it was easy. ive taken minimal of the right side just to give it shape. thats it.

rough pic mind, still got cuttings too


----------



## JamesM (5 Sep 2008)

Much better mate 

What's the internal for?


----------



## Mark Evans (5 Sep 2008)

JAmesM said:
			
		

> What's the internal for?



initially to help with general flow issues. weeks ago i started showing signs of hair algae. so i wapped the internal in up co2 etc, etc. ive never seen signs since. but now im scared to take it out!  :? 
i'll take out and see how things go.

thanks for the replies James


----------



## JamesM (5 Sep 2008)

Every little helps(tm)


----------



## jay (5 Sep 2008)

Looking really nice mate, really should consider entering it. Just, those little tufts of tennelus coming from the pogostemon and HC near the main rock? Reckon you should take them out. Will neaten up the 'pads' of green those plants.


----------



## Garuf (5 Sep 2008)

Looks fantastic saintly, minus the trimmings that is, On the subject of trimmings how do you get your stems so dense and how do you trim downoi?

Can I offer a critique, get rid of the riccia and swap it for a less obnoxious moss it really throws the scape. (Sorry to be so brutal).


----------



## Mark Evans (6 Sep 2008)

thanks jay and garuf.

 at least until the 15th the riccia will be staying garuf. theres no time to amend the situation. but i do hear whet your saying. i just trim the stems 1 a week.i initialy let them reach the top then decided on a height cutt them there, and they've bushed. im trimming 1 a week now. i dont know if its right or not though. the downoi? i aint trimmed it. just left it to its own accord.


----------



## JamesM (6 Sep 2008)

Garuf said:
			
		

> Looks fantastic saintly, minus the trimmings that is, On the subject of trimmings how do you get your stems so dense and how do you trim downoi?
> 
> Can I offer a critique, get rid of the riccia and swap it for a less obnoxious moss it really throws the scape. (Sorry to be so brutal).


Leave stems for a week or two to establish, then cut them down to about 3" in height - the next cut should be a little higher. This helps create a nice bush. 

P. Helferi is just a slow growing stem plant, so treat it as such. Cut the tops off and replant.

Mark, Garuf has a point about some moss... Flame moss would look great in place of the riccia. But if you don't have time, don't worry about it - there's always next time


----------



## aaronnorth (6 Sep 2008)

well done on the trimming on getting it so neat. I think that that style is more of a dutch style though and ruins this scape, if you trim them, dont do it so uniformed. The rest of the planting is untidy compared to the stems (but in a good way   ) It is too distracting, i prefered it when youe eye was drawn to the large rock.

just my opinion


----------



## Mark Evans (6 Sep 2008)

aaronnorth said:
			
		

> well done on the trimming on getting it so neat. I think that that style is more of a dutch style though and ruins this scape,



remember though aaron, its only to encourage new growth. it wont permanently look like this. once new growth occurs it will look less uniform.


----------



## aaronnorth (6 Sep 2008)

good job


----------



## Mark Evans (6 Sep 2008)

ray, ive sloped the sand. what do you think? enough?


----------



## Thomas McMillan (6 Sep 2008)

I have to admit, looking back on this topic I didn't like this scape when it first started but I love it now! You've done a great job saintly. Although there's what I would call a miss match of plants, it all seems to flow nicely.


----------



## PM (7 Sep 2008)

Tank's looking great Mark!

I'm glad you like the difference in lighting, it's so much better isn't it.  We have exactly the same lighting as each other now


----------



## George Farmer (7 Sep 2008)

Looking good, Mark.

As it matures, it's looking more 'wild' which is a good thing.  The key will be the final prune before the photoshoot.  Don't prune it literally just before, because it will look too artificial.  I'd say around 5 days prior.  Getting the Rotala right will be the biggest challenge.  You can, of course, prune the Riccia just before.  Just be ruthless at tidying up afterwards.

I assume you'll be removing the black grains of Aqua Soil too?  Consider using some larger grained natural pea gravel to improve the texture of the sand leading to the HC.

It's interesting to see so many folk giving their input on this 'scape.  It must be the most 'interactive' layout on UKAPS... 

Keep up the good work.  Not long now is there?


----------



## Mark Evans (7 Sep 2008)

PM said:
			
		

> I'm glad you like the difference in lighting, it's so much better isn't it.



the difference is ten-fold. soooo much better.thanks dude



			
				Thomas McMillan said:
			
		

> I have to admit, looking back on this topic I didn't like this scape when it first started but I love it now!



very kind, and honest of you to say.



			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> The key will be the final prune before the photoshoot. Don't prune it literally just before, because it will look too artificial.



this is the last prune of the stems im thinking george, theres only a few days left.yeh the riccia will be pruned. 



			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> assume you'll be removing the black grains of Aqua Soil too? Consider using some larger grained natural pea gravel to improve the texture of the sand leading to the HC.



 yes mate, this is where im going to spend most of the time i think.. i can instantly tidy this shore line up.ive got some pea gravel after you suggested it before   stan chung suggested to make it more jagged aswell.



			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> It's interesting to see so many folk giving their input on this 'scape. It must be the most 'interactive' layout on UKAPS...
> 
> only because i "hound"people, sorry folks to be such an immense pain in your lifes   what with the constant barrage of photos. but if i didnt, you see i'd end up with a tank that didnt look so good.
> 
> ...


----------



## Ray (7 Sep 2008)

saintly said:
			
		

> ray, ive sloped the sand. what do you think? enough?


Hmmmm.  Definitely better, but I'd try a little bit more - you can always put it back again and you have to get the siphon out to suck up the black aquasoil anyway.   

I'm also in two minds about the wayward tenellus right at the front.  Its quite nature aquarium, Ammano sometimes lets things grow out of place ("just look at the detail in a patch of grass") - I'm not sure if it detracts or improves - more formal without but is that what you want?  In any case - they are quick to snip out so you can wait until the last instant.


----------



## Mark Evans (9 Sep 2008)

Ray said:
			
		

> Hmmmm. Definitely better, but I'd try a little bit more



ray, ive done it... good call my friend. it's  better. much more depth. i dont have a pic yet cus its still cloudy but im pretty sure it works. ive also trimmed the stray e tenneluss runners from the foreground. slowly but surely it's getting there.


----------



## Mark Evans (10 Sep 2008)

ok a before and after. remember were looking at the sand.









both shot from the same angle. maybe a slight adjusment in the middle. give the hc a chance to fill in again.


----------



## LondonDragon (10 Sep 2008)

Mark the sand looks way better now, personally I would lower it a tad further, but its looking much better 
Those stems are filling in nicely too  congrats on a great scape


----------



## joyous214 (10 Sep 2008)

hi just sent all morning reading this. Wow love it. though i think you need some fish in there. some thing that will bring the green out. neons. But filling out nicely. I'm the same i change tank greenier when there is something niggling in the back of my mind.    love it.


----------



## Ray (10 Sep 2008)

LondonDragon said:
			
		

> ...the sand looks way better now, personally I would lower it a tad further, but its looking much better...


I concur with Paulo.  The new growth on the stems is lovely, a few more days and it should be glorious - which is just as well because the deadline is next monday!  You should deffo enter this this year because this time next year you will have something even better to show!


----------



## Mark Evans (10 Sep 2008)

Ray said:
			
		

> You should deffo enter this this year because this time next year you will have something even better to show!



thanks ray, as usual encouraging me   



			
				joyous214 said:
			
		

> hi just sent all morning reading this. Wow love it. though i think you need some fish in there



thanks joyous. fish?...i just got some   . a dozen gold cloud mountain minnows. i was tempted with these ages ago but ive eventually got some now. pics soon.   



			
				LondonDragon said:
			
		

> Mark the sand looks way better now, personally I would lower it a tad further



mmm...just what i was thinking. it was difficult trying to keep the sand from collapsing as it is now. maybe harder to get it even steeper.i might let it go this time.


			
				LondonDragon said:
			
		

> congrats on a great scape



cheers LD.


----------



## Mark Evans (10 Sep 2008)

ok, heres a quick snap. i'll spend more time on pics when theyve settled in.













for me, they work just right in the setup. not overstated like a cardinal or neon. streamlined. nice colour without being gordy.i now might stand a chance of catching the 3 remaining embers


----------



## joyous214 (10 Sep 2008)

beautieful


----------



## Mark Evans (10 Sep 2008)

joyous214 said:
			
		

> beautieful



too kind.

a couple more without the kit.









i'll do the hair dryer thing on the main shoot.


----------



## Ray (10 Sep 2008)

So now that you got some new fish the embers have finally emerged from the undergrowth?    Those guys are really toying with you!


----------



## Mark Evans (10 Sep 2008)

yeh, the little blighter's. i just couldnt catch them. they now think there minnows now.  :? i'll get them soon ray.


----------



## Mark Evans (11 Sep 2008)

so only joyous and ray like the choice of fish? mmmm...maybe the wrong decision


----------



## jay (11 Sep 2008)

Nah not at all mate. I'm just a little confused... so the embers have been in there all along?

Do think the minnows look stunning in there. Maybe better on their own though?

Oh yeah, I've just sent you a pm on Aquascaping World forum about this site being down for me, but its obviously working now. Don't know what went on but, meh


----------



## aaronnorth (11 Sep 2008)

saintly said:
			
		

> so only joyous and ray like the choice of fish? mmmm...maybe the wrong decision



as long as they compliment the scape well then they are fine 

personally they are not my cup of tea


----------



## joyous214 (11 Sep 2008)

saintly said:
			
		

> so only joyous and ray like the choice of fish? mmmm...maybe the wrong decision



Deffently not. I love it. Can i have!? Needs some shrimps...


----------



## Mark Evans (11 Sep 2008)

joyous214 said:
			
		

> Can i have!? Needs some shrimps...



i got shrimps, but there allways cleaning be hind the rocks and stuff. sometimes they come out.


----------



## Mark Evans (11 Sep 2008)

jay said:
			
		

> so the embers have been in there all along?



there were 8 i think...i couldnt get 4 of them because they just dart in the grass.



			
				jay said:
			
		

> Oh yeah, I've just sent you a pm on Aquascaping World forum about this site being down for me, but its obviously working now. Don't know what went on but, meh



got your msg dude. no probs.....come on ukaps tech team, buck your ideas up


----------



## a1Matt (12 Sep 2008)

saintly said:
			
		

> so only joyous and ray like the choice of fish? mmmm...maybe the wrong decision



thumbs up from me. As you say, nice and understated  8)


----------



## Mark Evans (13 Sep 2008)

2 of the remaining 4 embers are out    just the clever 2 left


----------



## aaronnorth (13 Sep 2008)

i hate catching fish, i always have to wait until they get tired out


----------



## JamesM (13 Sep 2008)

aaronnorth said:
			
		

> i hate catching fish, i always have to wait until they get tired out


I caught 6 embers from my 4ft tank last night - took ages as its quite heavily planted... In the end I put a jug in there and left them for two minutes, then covered the top with a net when they swam in


----------



## aaronnorth (13 Sep 2008)

when i was doing my work experience i bet the customers got fed up of waiting   

All the other guys are more 'aggressive' and just slam thenet net against the side to trap them while i am more carefull so i dont damage them.   i just chase them around, took me 25mins to catch a 10" texas cichlid to move it into another tank


----------



## Mark Evans (13 Sep 2008)

aaronnorth said:
			
		

> en i was doing my work experience i bet the customers got fed up of waiting



 

heres the forground in all its glory. sloped, bits taken out.






PLEEEEAAASE say you like it.   its driving me nuts


----------



## Garuf (13 Sep 2008)

I like it. Just give her time.
Also, I find the easiest way to catch fish is to turn the lights on at 3am and net them while they're asleep.


----------



## Thomas McMillan (14 Sep 2008)

Garuf said:
			
		

> I like it. Just give her time.
> Also, I find the easiest way to catch fish is to turn the lights on at 3am and net them while they're asleep.



I've never heard of that approach before! It sounds like it works though.

I think the foreground looks great. I'm not sure if the little rocks on the sand are doing it for me though.

Excellent fish choice too.


----------



## aaronnorth (14 Sep 2008)

i like it


----------



## Egmel (14 Sep 2008)

Been following this for a while, thought I'd comment for once!


			
				saintly said:
			
		

> PLEEEEAAASE say you like it.   its driving me nuts


I think it's more whether you like it.  While I agree it's nice for others to appreciate what you've done, it's even more important that you like it since you have to live with it!


			
				Garuf said:
			
		

> Also, I find the easiest way to catch fish is to turn the lights on at 3am and net them while they're asleep.


Hmm, interesting tactic, might have to remember that one!


			
				Thomas McMillan said:
			
		

> I'm not sure if the little rocks on the sand are doing it for me though.


Ditto.  Or maybe they're just in the wrong place, they might look better to the right, drawing your eye up the line that currently runs up the tops of the plants, maybe that's just me being geometrical though!      They'll probably look better when the HC has spread a bit more, at the moment the harsh white black contrast is a bit much and draws your eyes from the rest of the scene.  Have a play with them and see what you like best.


----------



## joyous214 (15 Sep 2008)

Nice i like it. Love the fish sets it off nicely... 

I always laugh at the poor guy that has to catch the fish, always feel sorry i tend to go look around so there is less presure. But still laugh. Found watching people try and catch otto's the funnest...!!


----------



## LondonDragon (15 Sep 2008)

saintly said:
			
		

> heres the forground in all its glory. sloped, bits taken out.


Looks great Mark, just don't mess around with it anymore  let the plants grow now and then decide if you need to make any further adjustments


----------



## a1Matt (15 Sep 2008)

joyous214 said:
			
		

> Nice i like it. Love the fish sets it off nicely...
> 
> I always laugh at the poor guy that has to catch the fish, always feel sorry i tend to go look around so there is less presure. But still laugh. Found watching people try and catch otto's the funnest...!!



If the shop assistant is struggling to catch fish or shrimp for me I always try and put them at ease - usually I make a point of saying how rubbish I am at doing it!  I hadn't thought about walking off, that would be a good move!


----------



## aaronnorth (15 Sep 2008)

> Found watching people try and catch otto's the funnest



or hillstream loaches because they dont come off the glass. They are constantlystuck on!


----------



## joyous214 (15 Sep 2008)

The funnest, i watched a poor boy cant have been more then 16 yr old over the weekend, trying to get tiny shrimp. This women and her son wanted this special on and everytime he got one the little boy went no not that one, that one... I was crying i was laughing so much. The kid had gone brighter red then i ever seen    and sweating like mad


----------



## aaronnorth (15 Sep 2008)

i saw a man asking for a ceetain platy (sunset) they all looked the same out of about 50!   

i will stop hijacking the thread now Mark, sorry


----------



## Mark Evans (18 Sep 2008)

ok, here's the usual update. things going real good, good growth shrimps doing there job etc. etc....actualy thats a lie! the shrimps are pain up the ass! they keep sifting through the sand and AS which is making it fall to the front. i know its the shrimps because ive seen them do it. so ive gone from having a grain perfect forground to a forground full of AS as you can see in the pic.

this weekend shall see yet another trim to encourage bushing of the stems.


----------



## aaronnorth (18 Sep 2008)

looks good mark but i think the stomes are getting covered a bit to much now but see what it looks like after the trim.


----------



## Mark Evans (18 Sep 2008)

aaronnorth said:
			
		

> but i think the stomes are getting covered a bit to much



hence the trim....


----------



## Mark Evans (18 Sep 2008)

well heres some picks from the past...well a few weeks ago at least.

its been some journey


----------



## JamesM (18 Sep 2008)

I know you don't want to hear this Mark, but I preferred it back then


----------



## Mark Evans (19 Sep 2008)

JAmesM said:
			
		

> but I preferred it back then



i knew someone would say that.i liked it too. but i do prefer it now


----------



## aaronnorth (19 Sep 2008)

saintly said:
			
		

> aaronnorth said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




if you had quoted the las part of the sentence it did say ' see what it looks like after the trim'

But IMO it will have to be a big trim to get them back again and the main part of the tank, that is what i was trying to say before.


----------



## Mark Evans (19 Sep 2008)

aaronnorth said:
			
		

> But IMO it will have to be a big trim to get them back again and the main part of the tank, that is what i was trying to say before.



maybe your right aaron.

heres a side view....


----------



## joyous214 (20 Sep 2008)

nice


----------



## Mark Evans (20 Sep 2008)

ok, thanks joyous  

heres before the trim....





and heres after. nothing too drastic. .....


----------



## Mark Evans (20 Sep 2008)

and one from afar...





thats it for a week or 2


----------



## jay (21 Sep 2008)

Good bit of trimming there, almost looks architectural. Just needed up that sand and make it ruler traight... could pass for an ADA tank  
Love the way the riccia is almost turning into the rotala.


----------



## Mark Evans (21 Sep 2008)

thanks jay, i thought this tanks life was close to being over but things just seem to be getting better. i have more of a "vision" for want of a better word, for this setup. i even get to practice trimming techniques.(not sure if there right) there working for me anyway.

the one thing i am thinking about is re producing this in my big tank. but with hills, open ground etc. i got a toothbrush to my stones today and there looking nice again.

there's just so many different options to us as aquas capers...its great isn't it?


----------



## joyous214 (21 Sep 2008)

I liked it before the trim!!! hee hee.. but looks so neat after. how do you do that. mine looks slightly less wild!! but that just looks perfect.


----------



## Mark Evans (21 Sep 2008)

joyous214 said:
			
		

> I liked it before the trim!!! hee hee.. but looks so neat after. how do you do that.



give it a couple of days and it will start to look natural again. its just because of the initial trim it looks so neat. its took weeks to get the stems to where they are now. now its got to the bush stage i just nip the tops of all the stems which encourages new growth. its all experimentation BTW, ive never done it before but things are going ok. you can already see the stems growing in the first pic, one day on

ive just be experimenting with angles and flash for when i photograph the tank proper....





a couple of the fish and shrimpy (whos been causing all the mess)













thanks for being bored!


----------



## JamesM (21 Sep 2008)

Nice, love the first pic.. and I wish I could get my embers to stay still long enough to shoot them!  Nice one!


----------



## Thomas McMillan (21 Sep 2008)

Haven't you got the remaining Embers out yet? 

I think this tank is amazing, seriously. It's just really unique and I love how it looks, like with the rock placements and stuff. I would actually say it's one of my favourite tanks of all time, if not my favourite. 

And I definately prefer it now from how it was before. It's more unique than it was now.

Well done, Mark. Keep it up!


----------



## Mark Evans (21 Sep 2008)

Thomas McMillan said:
			
		

> Haven't you got the remaining Embers out yet?



not yet thomas, the lill buggers   



			
				Thomas McMillan said:
			
		

> I would actually say it's one of my favourite tanks of all time, if not my favourite.



hopefully i can improve some more over the coming weeks.



			
				JAmesM said:
			
		

> Nice, love the first pic..



yeh, im looking for the best angles for the set up when it comes to photograph proper.im having a mare with my sand at the minute. i swear if that shrimp dont stop it he's going in my next curry!


----------



## John Starkey (22 Sep 2008)

Hi mark,tank is looking good as always, you have really done a good job with it and the trimming is very neat,regards john.


----------



## joyous214 (22 Sep 2008)

oohhhh yeah my shrimp moves things round used to have clown loaches they were a royal pain in the rear. nice i might steal couple of ideas for my mini 35L one...!! if you dont mind


----------



## Mark Evans (22 Sep 2008)

john starkey said:
			
		

> tank is looking good as always, you have really done a good job with it and the trimming is very neat,regards john.



cheers john, im enjoying the tank at the moment, trimming etc. its nice when things go well.



			
				joyous214 said:
			
		

> oohhhh yeah my shrimp moves things round used to have clown loaches they were a royal pain in the rear



 yep, right old pain. i got rid of my clown loaches.its a shame they dont stay small.



			
				joyous214 said:
			
		

> nice i might steal couple of ideas for my mini 35L one...!! if you dont mind



go for it, its nice that someone likes the tank enough to want to emulate certain ideas.   

just to report 2 days after trimming e tennelus is rising from the ground once again, it grows WAY too fast now.


----------



## Mark Evans (25 Sep 2008)

anyone had experience with Myriophyllum mezianum ? ....ive bought some and planted it in the back left corner. as you can see its left a void where ive ripped out my grass and e tennelus. from what i can gather this new plant is just what im looking for. im hoping i can get it into some kind of shape that will blend in with the other stem. the timing might be way off but only time will tell    

if it dont work it dont realy matter, just a plant i'll never buy again. comments allways welcome.


----------



## Mark Evans (26 Sep 2008)

saintly said:
			
		

> anyone had experience with Myriophyllum mezianum ? ...



so im the only one eh?...mmm


----------



## Graeme Edwards (26 Sep 2008)

Hi Mark,

The scape is looking lovely, nice job mate.

As for the Myriophyllum mezianum, its not a very common plant as im aware. Tropica are bringing out a new Var. It can look really nice. When its in full photosynthasis, it looks like its coverd in ice or snow. Some Sp get very red stems and vivid greens. Treat it like any other stem by way of trimming. My experiance of a Myriophyllum sp has been that it isnt an amaizingly fast grower- But my experiance with it is limmited.

Hope that helps.

Cheers.


----------



## Mark Evans (26 Sep 2008)

thanks graeme, its looking like the scape could be over anyway   riccia has gone belly up and its integral in the scape now.

ive butchered the big tank and that looks awfull now so it looks like im up for 2 total new scapes. of to the green machine tomoz to buy some new materials


----------



## Mark Evans (26 Sep 2008)

well heres a pic showing the areas that are dying off on the riccia balls. im realy not sure what to do...carry on, rip it down  :? as you can see the riccia that becomes part of the stems is crucial to keeping the shape. if it goes its going to look crap and i cant bring myself to try and get around the problem. it might just be easier to start again. i think visiting TGM tomoz will help me decide. im going to buy a load of rocks ADA AS etc so i could scape both tanks.

CLICK ON THE IMAGE TO MAKE IT BIGGER FOLKS


----------



## Garuf (26 Sep 2008)

Rip it down. For me I think this scape has done everything it could do without a drastic change.


----------



## Thomas McMillan (26 Sep 2008)

You could maybe try this sccape without the sand foreground and just let the HC grow over or something? See how that looks.

Please don't rip it down though. :l


----------



## JamesM (26 Sep 2008)

Thomas McMillan said:
			
		

> You could maybe try this sccape without the sand foreground and just let the HC grow over or something? See how that looks.
> 
> Please don't rip it down though. :l


Go backa few pages... like 20 or something. The sand was added later 


Why not just plant some new stems or add some flame moss to replace the riccia, Mark? Is there a rush to get this finished or something?


----------



## Thomas McMillan (26 Sep 2008)

JAmesM said:
			
		

> Thomas McMillan said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The tank wasn't as mature as it is now though.


----------



## Mark Evans (26 Sep 2008)

JAmesM said:
			
		

> Why not just plant some new stems or add some flame moss to replace the riccia, Mark? Is there a rush to get this finished or something?



i know what your saying james and ive thought of the possibilities. theres no rush and yes its possible to pull it back around.its sounds daft but its gutted me a little that its happening.

im kinda thinking what garuf's thinking, but if i get my big tank under way i'll probably forget the problems in this tank and let it do its thing i suppose.

thomas, i hear what your saying   but my dilema is more towards the gaps the riccia will leave.

maybe i could create the same kind of thing with moss? ive got stacks now its grown in my big tank.mmm...i could find rocks of similar size and instanly fill the void. thoughts everyone?


----------



## JamesM (26 Sep 2008)

Flame moss would look great - I've used it myself to fill a spot  But yeah, any moss could work, and the darker colour will add a nice bit of contrast. I can't help but think this tank needs a splash of red somewhere too...


----------



## Thomas McMillan (26 Sep 2008)

JAmesM said:
			
		

> Flame moss would look great - I've used it myself to fill a spot  But yeah, any moss could work, and the darker colour will add a nice bit of contrast. I can't help but think this tank needs a splash of red somewhere too...



I agree that it could look decent if it's done right but I don't think the redness should be too intense. Something like the amber shade of R. Roudifolia or B. Australis (I think) when under intense lighting.


----------



## Mark Evans (26 Sep 2008)

we touched on this subject a while back i think. id love to see  a tinge of colour. i was hoping the newly added Myriophyllum mezianum would add something, not necessarily  red, but something.

i'll ask jim what plants he could recommend tomorrow.

thanks for the input guys, much appreciated. i didn't realise how attached i was to this setup


----------



## Mark Evans (27 Sep 2008)

after coming back fro TGM all enthusiastic i reckon ive said the henge. i remember someone saying put moss into the set up. ive taken the almost dead riccia out and in its place ive added the moss from my big tank. it dont matter cus' the scapes over   

what do you reckon?...the gap at the back (left) is going to be filled with a stem. i reckon the moss looks way better.





ut in 2....



ADDED TO LEFT AND RIGHT OF MAIN STONE


----------



## Garuf (27 Sep 2008)

I've been bugging you to use moss I'm glad you finally saw sense. Love it mate.


----------



## Ray (27 Sep 2008)

I really do like riccia...

...but the moss looks so much better.

If you rip this down after missing the AGA deadline because it "wasn't ready" you'll have an angry mob on your hands! IMHO building the new 300L rockwork scape will in any case take all your time for the next two weeks.

What kind of moss is that then?

Ray


----------



## Mark Evans (27 Sep 2008)

Ray said:
			
		

> ..but the moss looks so much better.



i think so to   



			
				Garuf said:
			
		

> I've been bugging you to use moss I'm glad you finally saw sense. Love it mate.


thanks mate, wished i'd done ages ago. 

ray, i'm now going carry on with the scape. you cant believe how happy i was when i placed the moss into the 2 holes where the riccia was and saw how great it looked. i literally jumped for joy   
tomorrow when the waters cleared i'll post some close ups. it still needs to fill out a bit (not much) the moss is what London dragon sent its either flame or weeping. (got them mixed up   )



			
				Ray said:
			
		

> f you rip this down after missing the AGA deadline because it "wasn't ready" you'll have an angry mob on your hands!



i'll try and get looking good for next years entry. i'd of been gutted if i had to strip it down.

oh BTW ive got some ludwigia arcuata to try in the set up...any thoughts? yay nay?


----------



## Garuf (27 Sep 2008)

It's spiky moss, at least it looks like it to me.


----------



## Mark Evans (27 Sep 2008)

Garuf said:
			
		

> t's spiky moss,



thats the one. i didnt fancy trawling through the journal. just read the pm from LD...spiky and weeping is what he sent. very slowly, im turning into a moss fan.


----------



## JamesM (27 Sep 2008)

Looks great, Mark - we said it would


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## Mark Evans (27 Sep 2008)

JAmesM said:
			
		

> Looks great, Mark - we said it would


i know mate, cheers. just have issues back left, but i reckon ive got em' covered  8)


----------



## Mark Evans (27 Sep 2008)

close ups...














thats it for a while until i fill the back corner.


----------



## Garuf (28 Sep 2008)

It would have looked so much better with normal white clouds . 
Really, in all fairness nothing we can say will make this scape any better, its fantastic and that is all. 
I personally would love to see it stripped down but this is my semi destructive want to see something new. Keep up the good work. You're one of the lucky few.


----------



## aaronnorth (28 Sep 2008)

looks great, ties in with the name 'the henge' much better, looks more ancient


----------



## joyous214 (28 Sep 2008)

love the close ups..


----------



## Mark Evans (28 Sep 2008)

Garuf said:
			
		

> Really, in all fairness nothing we can say will make this scape any better, its fantastic and that is all.
> I personally would love to see it stripped down but this is my semi destructive want to see something new. Keep up the good work. You're one of the lucky few.



kind words garuf, glad you like it. some of its luck though.slowly trimming is improving and placing rocks was ok but adding p helferi was either yours or georges idea, cant remember....i didnt even know about the plant. moss...you again.

im going to live with it for a while longer just to see how the Myriophyllum mezianum fairs. its growing good now. its only been in a few days but its coming up slowly.



			
				aaronnorth said:
			
		

> ooks great, ties in with the name 'the henge' much better, looks more ancient



im loving the moss aaron


			
				joyous214 said:
			
		

> love the close ups..


cheers joyous214.


----------



## Tom (28 Sep 2008)

Looking much better with moss    although personally I would have gone for harlequins or normal WCMM   

Tom


----------



## Mark Evans (1 Oct 2008)

Tom said:
			
		

> Looking much better with moss  although personally I would have gone for harlequins or normal WCMM



funny you should say that. i was going to pu wcmm in there. there in my big tank now. oh well. im quite liking these fish.

heres the usual update. nice growth all around. the new stems (which you cant see yet.) are coming on nicely at the back left.

this sunday shall see cleaning of the stones ritual...ive bought an electric tooth brush for the job   

ive also been running 2 sky white tubes, which looks way better imo


----------



## Mark Evans (1 Oct 2008)

a less green image


----------



## a1Matt (1 Oct 2008)

saintly said:
			
		

> this sunday shall see cleaning of the stones ritual...ive bought an electric tooth brush for the job



What a great idea, thanks 

(moss gets a thumbs up from me too  )


----------



## Mark Evans (1 Oct 2008)

and the new stems...Myriophyllum mezianum

the whole tank is pearling like mad, like never before actually


----------



## joyous214 (2 Oct 2008)

oohhhh wow... nice pearly shot.


----------



## Mark Evans (4 Oct 2008)

well using an electric tooth brush was a breeze for the rocks. it took 2 minutes to clean them. as you can see.

ive also trimmed the hc foreground and made good the sand.  the tank is a real pleasure to work with now. its becoming more addictive as the days go by. i really want a smaller tank though. my rena is way to tall. it will be hard to maintain. this is so easy because of its smaller nature.





if theres any pointers the "top scapers" may have for trimming, id love to know. or just let me know where it dont look right. much apreciated  

(i know its not level, that will be sunday)


----------



## Ray (4 Oct 2008)

I like the way you have scalloped the HC along the front around the foremost rocks, but you could make the waves a little more subtle.  I think now the trick is how you trim around the rocks - for example you could expose the LHS rock slightly more by trimming slightly its moss cover, etc.  RHS front P. Helfrei is getting taller than the tenellus, not sure if you want that.  I'm waiting to see what happens to your back LHS corner...

Do you always run your drop checker bottle green like that, and fill it with air right to the bottom?

So you never did have the courage to remove that internal in the end then?

I know what you mean about size, I almost wish I'd got a 60x30x45 rather than my 90cm just so you can work on it quickly and get great results...


----------



## aaronnorth (4 Oct 2008)

i would remove the P.Helferi from the right hand side which is mingling in with the E.T, looks a bit messy IMO. Also, the 2 largest clumps of HC look the same size, perhaps try changing one of them into a different shape?

You could also remove one of the P.Helferi stems to uncover the rock next to it:


----------



## Mark Evans (4 Oct 2008)

thanks guys. well ive spent some time cleaning the tank today. ive trimmed again after some good advice. after speaking with jim @ TGM (he wants a pic of the setup) i took MORE time trying to get things right.

of course the stems look ropy, they were trimmed recently. its no where near completion, but youy get the idea.

i know i keep posting the same old pics etc, but hang on in there and when the setups run its course that will be it. promise. im still learning remember.

anyway heres the pic. the background is purely just lifting the lights off the frame which gave a more even lightingon the back wall   glad i know that now for the final shoot.

i shot @ f 4.5 hence the fish out of focus and some plants. (i didnt check the pics until i'd put all the kit back in


----------



## aaronnorth (4 Oct 2008)

500 replies to this thread Mark,


----------



## Mark Evans (4 Oct 2008)

aaronnorth said:
			
		

> 500 replies to this thread Mark,



yeh your right, maybe i should post else where. 

good god 500 posts


----------



## Thomas McMillan (4 Oct 2008)

That photo is the best yet. Are you letting the HC make its way to the front glass?


----------



## aaronnorth (4 Oct 2008)

saintly said:
			
		

> aaronnorth said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




i bet this is the most active thread on the whole of UKAPS! something to be proud of


----------



## Mark Evans (5 Oct 2008)

Thomas McMillan said:
			
		

> That photo is the best yet. Are you letting the HC make its way to the front glass?



cheers thomas. the hc did make its way to the front, but as you can see im trying to keep it in order. it appears i still have alot to learn.


----------



## Mark Evans (6 Oct 2008)

opinions please,

its a quick job, but what do you reckon...take the stems out or leave them in?


----------



## Thomas McMillan (6 Oct 2008)

definately with the stems.


----------



## aaronnorth (6 Oct 2008)

Thomas McMillan said:
			
		

> definately with the stems.



i agree, it gives it height


----------



## jay (6 Oct 2008)

Oh I dunno... Just imagined some hairgrass to soften the stone in the back... but many 'scapes are like that.
Stem all topiaried(sp.) up.


----------



## joyous214 (7 Oct 2008)

stems in. Looks great


----------



## JamesM (7 Oct 2008)

Did any of the grass survive in this tank, Mark? 

Gotta keep the stems, but I do think a nice soft grass background would look nice...


----------



## Mark Evans (9 Oct 2008)

JAmesM said:
			
		

> Did any of the grass survive in this tank, Mark?



yes mate, it sprouts up in odd places. ive just come home from working away for a few days, tank looks fine. i really am getting the urge to rip the stems out. ive trimmed them a little heavy and there not really looking there best. in all honesty, i feel like doing a rescape  :? i'll lay down a while before i commit to that comment though.

the new plant is looking fab. its taking on its under water life, and is producing the finest leafy kind things ive ever seen. very beautiful actually


----------



## Mark Evans (12 Oct 2008)

drastic things have happened!


----------



## howardish (12 Oct 2008)




----------



## Mark Evans (12 Oct 2008)

howardish said:
			
		

>



not quite dead, but close.


----------



## Thomas McMillan (12 Oct 2008)

ohno


----------



## aaronnorth (12 Oct 2008)

i have mixed feelings about it


----------



## jay (12 Oct 2008)

Show us the carnage


----------



## Mark Evans (12 Oct 2008)

no carnage, just no stems. i WILL rip it down this week.

heres what im planning on next. im practising in an old tank i was given,


----------



## joyous214 (12 Oct 2008)

oohhhh.... nice...


----------



## aaronnorth (12 Oct 2008)

i used to have that thomas train set


----------



## Thomas McMillan (12 Oct 2008)

As much as I'm upset that this scape is going... the next one seems awesome!


----------



## Mark Evans (12 Oct 2008)

Thomas McMillan said:
			
		

> As much as I'm upset that this scape is going... the next one seems awesome!



thanks thomas, its not dead as yet. when ive decided on the scape positioning etc. i'll pull it apart then. i need the plants...moss some hc, e tennellus. i have stems in the other tank that i will use also some crypts. these are new to me so will see how things pan out.



			
				aaronnorth said:
			
		

> i used to have that thomas train set


mmmm....



			
				joyous214 said:
			
		

> oohhhh.... nice...


   thanks joy, early days yet.

as you can tell the forground is mainly hardscape, so i'll have top get it dead right. once ive got something close, ive got tio transfer the whole idea into the optiwhite  :? 

plenty of pics for that job me thinks.


----------



## Mark Evans (12 Oct 2008)

the henge is now a nursery housing some stems for the future scape.






and ive now got more plants that my local MA


----------



## Guest (12 Oct 2008)

you genius  :idea: wish i could create something like that,
keep it going pal


----------



## Mark Evans (12 Oct 2008)

thanks wilmaddox.

heres the proof aaron...


----------



## Stu Worrall (12 Oct 2008)

saintly said:
			
		

> no carnage, just no stems. i WILL rip it down this week.
> 
> heres what im planning on next. im practising in an old tank i was given,


thats one nice bit of wood...  looking forward to seeing it planted


----------



## JamesM (12 Oct 2008)

Nice one Mark, looking forward to your rescape mate


----------



## Mark Evans (12 Oct 2008)

thansk peeps. yep youve guessed it...a new journal. i'll only do the start up to planting. and thats it.


----------



## sari (12 Oct 2008)

Oh no, we can't have that! We need at least 70 pages from the next journal! I must say, the wood's looking awesome, I think it will be a fab scape. Have you started it yet?


----------



## YzemaN (12 Oct 2008)

saintly said:
			
		

> the henge is now a nursery housing some stems for the future scape.


Luxury, I say! I've got an old scratched, octagonal tank as a standby...



			
				saintly said:
			
		

> heres the proof aaron...



Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
But with the plants in an optiwhite nursery home, I know we'll see a cracking scape in the next journal


----------



## Thomas McMillan (12 Oct 2008)

well, i guess a plus side to ripping this tank down is that you could get your hands on those last few ember tetras.


----------



## Mark Evans (12 Oct 2008)

Thomas McMillan said:
			
		

> well, i guess a plus side to ripping this tank down is that you could get your hands on those last few ember tetras.


yeh the little bliters. they were the last thing i took out the tank. they tried to bury them themselves in the AS.


----------



## jay (13 Oct 2008)

saintly said:
			
		

>



I like where you're going with the stone arrangement and sand with gravel at the front. Like Dave Chow's 'scape.

It looks beautiful and has the beginnings of a real nature aquarium.

Is it Mopani wood? If so, its the only time I've seen it put to good use, never usually liked it.


----------



## chilled84 (10 Sep 2009)

What are you carpeting with??


----------



## Mark Evans (10 Sep 2009)

blimey, when did i do this? this is a distant memory...



			
				JamesM said:
			
		

> Nice one Mark, looking forward to your rescape mate



cheers dude.



			
				JamesM said:
			
		

> thats one nice bit of wood... looking forward to seeing it planted



this is where i started my graded nonsense then?....  



			
				chilled84 said:
			
		

> What are you carpeting with??



nothing my friend. 









these really were trial and error days.


----------



## Gill (10 Sep 2009)

Arrrghhhhhhhhhhhh You had the Devil Fish in there, Red Eye Tetra are Devil Fish Devil Fish I tells Ya._ (Shakes his fists and Wails)_


----------

