# Algae Strategy!



## bugs (11 Oct 2018)

I'm trying to arrest the spread of algae in my four month old tank. I went through the diatoms back when the tank was first set up and things were looking mostly good before I took a three week holiday in August; during which there were no weekly water changes, fert dosing, etc.

When I returned the plants had all grown but some were looking unhealthy with leaves looking weak. I also noticed the CO2 had dropped from 20 bpm to 12. Having  restored the CO2 to 22 BPM and resumed fert dosing and water changes I allowed the plants time to produce new healthy growth before taking and planting cuttings; pruning and removing the older growth (quite a lot!). Since my holiday hair and green algae has started to make an appearance on older leaves, wood, and other decor.

60 litre tank.
Juwel internal with 300 lph turnover.
Lights were are 50%, now at 30%
Photoperiod 4pm to 11pm.
CO2 indicator is green.
Dosing 1ml TMC liquid CO2 per day.
Dosing 50ml TMC ferts per week.
Weekly water changes (c. 40%).
I have Amano shrimp and three Ottos (altho I only ever seem to see one of them).
In terms of strategy, to ensure the algae does not get out of hand:

Light intensity reduction mentioned above.
Filter output redirected to increase surface agitation (had a biofilm)
Put more plants in.
Add a Hydor Koralia circulation pump (anyone any experience / recommendation?)
Test Nitrate, Phosphate, and Potassium and dose (in addition to TMC) where necessary (or simply increase / decrease the TMC dosage).
I'd be grateful for any thought and input!

Thanks


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## azawaza (11 Oct 2018)

Are you dosing according to EI? Also, how high tech are your lights?


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## Edvet (12 Oct 2018)

Pictures will help.


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## bugs (12 Oct 2018)

I'm not using EI - just 50ml per week of TMC liquid.

I've popped some photos in a Google Album.

Thank you.


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## Edvet (12 Oct 2018)

I mean more a FTS (full tank shot) so we can see the layout , hardscape, plants, hardware etc.


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## Siege (12 Oct 2018)

bugs said:


> I'm not using EI - just 50ml per week of TMC liquid.
> 
> .



TNC Complete?


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## bugs (12 Oct 2018)

Edvet said:


> Pictures will help.



Oh, I see. I've just added one to the album.


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## Edvet (12 Oct 2018)

Looks like more plantmass will help stabilize things. ( just some easy cheap stuf, and maybe add some floaters)
I would add plants, add some extra ferts, do waterchanges with good maintenance twice a week and indeed go lower light. Keep this up for 6 weeks and report back. Keep the rest the same.


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## Siege (12 Oct 2018)

Hi, just looked at the full tank pic. A couple of thoughts

- you are incredibly lightly planted
- substrate looks rather dirty. Could be swamped with waste organics. 
- you have a soil based substrate underneath the sand, can’t quite tell?

A few good cleans all round and massive water changes, add a WHOLE bunch of plants and should be fine, fingers crossed!


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## bugs (12 Oct 2018)

Thank you both.

I've ordered some more plants. The centre was a lot denser but the plant ended up in a poor state during my holiday and was also thick with aerial roots, making things look quite ugly. The remaining stem plants were heavily pruned.

I'll increase the TNC Complete dosage too. Currently 5ml per week so I may try a second dose of 5ml later in the week.

I think the picture is quite deceptive where the gravel is concerned. There are some patches of algae on the front glass below the gravel level but on the whole the top 1-2cm siphons clear each week. There is a substrate (Tropica).

Thanks again.


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## Siege (12 Oct 2018)

Check out the fert dosing on ea aquascaper ferts. Dose as per that instructions but does assume high plant mass.


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## bugs (12 Oct 2018)

Siege said:


> Check out the fert dosing on ea aquascaper ferts. Dose as per that instructions but does assume high plant mass.


If I'm reading the correct article then it suggests I should dose 5ml per day? TNC seem to endorse increasing dosage to 5ml 3 times per week to achieve levels similar to EI. Given my current plant mass I think I should err on the side of 3x per week?

Becomes hard to dose without then doing a water change which removes the dose. Perhaps I should dose the total 15ml per week across two days (7.5ml each) preceded by a water change?


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## Siege (13 Oct 2018)

Yes the aquascaper instructions do assume high plant mass. 

Don’t dose before water change, dose after.


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## bugs (13 Oct 2018)

Thank you. It's my intention to dose after except, with 3x per week dosing and 2x per week water change you end up doing a water change the day after a dose. Hence why I'm thinking I'll dose 2x per week (after the water change).


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## oscarlloydjohn (13 Oct 2018)

To me it seems like you aren't running enough CO2. What is your pH drop at full CO2 concentration?

For reference, I run 90bpm on my 30L tank.


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## bugs (13 Oct 2018)

That's quite a lot compared to mine, and on a smaller tank too. Do you run if 24hrs or only when lights are on?
I'm not sure about the PH. I have some dip tests which probably are not a good enough measure but may give me something to go on. By PH drop I am assuming the difference between the PH after the lights go on vs the PH just before the lights go off?


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## oscarlloydjohn (14 Oct 2018)

bugs said:


> That's quite a lot compared to mine, and on a smaller tank too. Do you run if 24hrs or only when lights are on?
> I'm not sure about the PH. I have some dip tests which probably are not a good enough measure but may give me something to go on. By PH drop I am assuming the difference between the PH after the lights go on vs the PH just before the lights go off?



Mine does run very high but I also have high surface agitation. I run the CO2 3hrs before lights on until 1hr before lights off.

As you may know, dissolving CO2 in water will cause its pH to lower.

pH drop is usually the fully degassed pH and fully saturated pH compared. If you measure pH at lights on, it may not have reached the full saturation yet so you could get inaccurate results.

The best way to measure degassed pH is by measuring it just before the CO2 comes on. Then measure it at regular intervals for a few hours after the lights come on and you should get to a point where the pH no longer continues to drop. 

This value (the one which pH doesnt go below) is your saturated pH. 

Ideally the difference between these two values would be 1.0pH which is equivalent to 30ppm co2.

You may want to do a pH profile to give a more accurate idea.

Does your CO2 turn on before your lights?

Oscar


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## bugs (14 Oct 2018)

Thanks for the explanation. My CO2 runs 24hrs per day. On a previous setup I used a solenoid but it was less successful  than tanks I ran about 15 years ago which were on for 24hrs (hence why I reverted).

In practise I guess that means my setup should peak just before the lights come and be lowest just after lights off. The only exception I can think of is the effect of the natural light in the room before the lights come on at 4pm. I guess I should just test PH at regular intervals throughout the day to see what is really happening. 

Is there a recommended test kit or device for accurate measurements? I'm fairly certain the quick dip tests I have will not be sufficiently accurate.


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## Edvet (14 Oct 2018)

Low dose 24/7 CO2 is absolutely viable, just need to make sure your light levels are fitting the CO2 level. With 24/7 CO2 you will find pH will be lowest at night as the plants use O2  and produce CO2.
Natural light in a room can hurt if the light levels are higher than your CO2 allow!


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## bugs (14 Oct 2018)

I was going to invest in a PH pen but Practical Fishkeeping's recommendation does not appear to be available anywhere! Not sure whether to trust the reviews on Amazon - how can people really tell whether the device is accurate? Surprised Aqua Essentials are not selling a device too. Hmmm...


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## Andrew Butler (14 Oct 2018)

bugs said:


> I was going to invest in a PH pen but Practical Fishkeeping's recommendation does not appear to be available anywhere! Not sure whether to trust the reviews on Amazon - how can people really tell whether the device is accurate? Surprised Aqua Essentials are not selling a device too. Hmmm...


People on here have gone both ways; cheap and cheerful from amazon and go by what it says or Hanna make some quality ones which I think are worth investing in if you can afford one.
https://www.hannainstruments.co.uk/hi-98100-ph-checker-plus.html


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## bugs (14 Oct 2018)

I did come across Hanna but not the more affordable ones you linked to. Quite happy at that price!
Out of interest... I've seen images of aquarium water being tested by removing some of the water into a container. Is there a reason the probe is not simply put straight into the aquarium?


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## bugs (14 Oct 2018)

Interestingly the digital pen meters seem almost as faffy as liquid tests - what with calibrating, cleaning with distilled water, and storing with "storage solution". The upside is obviously having a specific value vs trying to match colours etc, however, not the simplicity I was hoping for...


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## dw1305 (14 Oct 2018)

Hi all,





bugs said:


> digital pen meters seem almost as faffy as liquid tests - what with calibrating, cleaning with distilled water, and storing with "storage solution".


pH meters are quite <"high maintenance bits of kit">, if you want something that is "plug and play" then a pH meter probably isn't for you.

I'm not a CO2 user, but If I was I would definitely rely <"on a drop checker">, rather than a cheap pH pen. The only disadvantage of drop checkers is that they take a while to reflect the actual CO2 level.

If you understand the workings of the pH meter, buffer it before use, <"store the electrode on the appropriate storage solution"> etc. then you can use a pH profile and a drop checker to give you an accurate pH profile.

cheers Darrel


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## bugs (14 Oct 2018)

I just looked at the price of the buffer and storage solutions ...
I have a drop-checker but I like the idea behind this one. Maybe a better use of my investment, albeit not supporting the PH profiling for which I think I may just buy a liquid test kit.


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## Nick Norman (14 Oct 2018)

I have been using a cheap PH pen from ebay. pen and buffers were under a tenner. It takes about 5 min to give an a accurate reading so i just clip it to the side of the tank when doing a profile. Even if the PH reading isn't exact I think the drop/change it reads is fairly accurate, along with a drop checker its probable good enough. I use the drop checker to tell me the saturation and PH pen to know when it gets there and if it stays the same. Don't need to know the exact PH.

I keep the buffer solutions in air tight containers so i can use it several time.


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## Edvet (14 Oct 2018)

For a pH profile any cheap one will do, if you want to invest in a good one look for Hanna or Milwaukee stuff.


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## bugs (14 Oct 2018)

I've bought a cheap but well reviewed one off Amazon. Thanks.


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## Jayefc1 (15 Oct 2018)

Me too brought a cheap.on hang on side of tank if it drops from 7 to 6 before lights on i know I've got 30 ppm of co2 job done


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## john dory (15 Oct 2018)

I just use a drop checker.
As long as it's green at lights on...I'm happy.


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## Edvet (15 Oct 2018)

john dory said:


> just use a drop checker.
> As long as it's green at lights on...I'm happy.


Sure, but we often see people with problems who say they have a green DC, seems it can give false security


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## john dory (15 Oct 2018)

I'm not using particularly powerful lights,and none of my plants have a high carbon requirement.


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## bugs (17 Oct 2018)

I've made a start measuring PH but have another question... My KH is off the scale based on a dip test (actually, two dip tests from different brands). Does this mean my PH will be less reactive to CO2? (Something I thought I read somewhere).


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## Edvet (17 Oct 2018)

Different theories about that, some ( me included) say yes, others say a 1 point drop  is a 1 point drop. Let''s see the profile first


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## bugs (19 Oct 2018)

The readings so far seem, erm, static:
Lights are on from 4pm to 11pm. CO2 runs 25hrs.

*Date / Time / PH*
16/10/2018 20:45   6.5
17/10/2018 12:13   6.9
17/10/2018 15:51   6.9
18/10/2018 08:32   6.9
18/10/2018 15:52   6.9
18/10/2018 23:12   6.9
19/10/2018 08:11   7.0


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## Edvet (19 Oct 2018)

Looks like 6.9 all day? Why do you have the CO2 on 24 hours? Are you purposely dosing 24/7?
Could you test a glas of tankwater taken out of the  tank the day before ( so CO2 has gassed out).
Solid dose 24/7 can  work, just adapt light to it.


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## bugs (19 Oct 2018)

In the past I've found solenoids to be a bit of a pain. Running exceptionally hot and a whiff of unreliability. I've had both the "normal" solenoids and the low-heat versions. When I first started in planted aquariums (almost 20 years ago now ) I ran 24/7 and it was one of my most successful aquariums. I'm not ruling out other factors and I'll not rule out fitting a solenoid at some point if that seems the way to go.

In the meantime... Today is maintenance day so I'll draw of some water before I start and test that in 24 hours time to see what it shows.


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## Edvet (19 Oct 2018)

24/7 can work, just need some lower light when compared to the full 1point pH drop.
I used it with succes too.


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## bugs (19 Oct 2018)

Interestingly, the siphoned off sample; measured about 15mins after removing from the aquarium, was 7.1. The aquarium, immediately following the water change, was still at 6.9... I'd just changed about 40% of the water...


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## Edvet (20 Oct 2018)

You should leave the sample alone abit longer for it to gass out.
If it is indeed a .2 drop just adapt light to that, it will work.


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## bugs (20 Oct 2018)

I will indeed check it again later today (about 24hrs after it was taken out). It was just interesting the difference between the two so soon.


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## bugs (21 Oct 2018)

So... The aquarium is currently reading 7.0 and the sample taken yesterday is currently reading 8.0...
Assuming CO2 is the only influencing factor that shows 30ppm concentration in the aquarium water?


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## Edvet (21 Oct 2018)

It should more or less. ( slight influence of temp)


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## bugs (21 Oct 2018)

Brilliant! Thank you for your help.

Having done all the other bits (increased dosage, 2x per week water change / clean, increased circulation) things are looking better. The algae seems to be retreating (helped by some physical removal) and new plant growth is looking healthier. I'm awaiting some new plants too - should be here early next week.


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## Edvet (21 Oct 2018)

Don''t keep tinkering to much, just keep up waterchanges and maintenance for a week or 6 and show some pics then


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## bugs (15 Dec 2018)

So... Some weeks later...

I've started to get BBA... I think caused by my CO2 running out. Before the BBA the hair algae and coating of green algae on leaves had reduced but then remained fairly persistent.

CO2 has been restored and I've recently increased the lighting from 20% to 50% as the plants simply do not seem to be growing as fast as aquatic plants normally grow in my experience.

I've started to get some pearling and hoping the growth will starve the algae.


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## Soilwork (23 Dec 2018)

So typical of a high tech tank that hasn’t been given anywhere near enough time to mature.


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## bugs (23 Dec 2018)

Soilwork said:


> So typical of a high tech tank that hasn’t been given anywhere near enough time to mature.



How long does a high-tech tank take to mature in your opinion; and what would you expect to be seeing by now?


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## bugs (24 Dec 2018)

Contemplating adding a solenoid or, trading my CO2 supermarket reg for one with a built in solenoid.
I'm prompted by reading how CO2 fluctuations can cause algae; figuring shutting it down during lights out will add stability and therefore help reduce algae.
Thoughts on this theory welcomed along with solenoid / reg recommendations. I would be particularly interested in solenoids that run cool. I had one with a previous setup but not sure why they're not so popular?


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## Soilwork (26 Dec 2018)

bugs said:


> How long does a high-tech tank take to mature in your opinion; and what would you expect to be seeing by now?



Any tank usually takes up to and beyond 12 months to fully mature.  The 3 month cycle we are taught to follow at the beginning is just the nitrogen cycle aspect.  In the early stages of any tank there will nearly always be stages of instability where algae will take a foothold and unfortunately since we plant partially emersed grown plants and throw in large amounts of fertiliser straight off the bat we just end up feeding the inevitable growth of algae. 

To make matter worse we are then told to use methods of alage control that can be detrimental to our biofilter such as chemi-clean agents, glutaradehyde and hydrogen peroxide all of which have no place in an aquarium. 

So here we are 2018 with pages and pages long algae threads, some of which were never even seen 80 years or so ago.  Once the tank has had a chance to properly mature as in the biofilter is left undisturbed the tank actually becomes quite robust which ever method you choose. 

Common practices should hold the biofilter at the forefront of every new tank and it is something that we should be encouraging on a daily basis through sites such as this.  Unfortunately we strive to create something in such an unrealistic timeframe.

Hope you get things under control.  

Regards

CJ


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## bugs (6 Jan 2019)

I don't want to speak too soon but I thought some may find it helpful if I shared details of what seems to be working in terms of dealing with the algae and improving the plant growth. I can't pinpoint any one thing, nor can I discount maturity of the tank playing a role too. That said, these are the changes that seem to have finally resulted in a good state:

More plants; in particular fast growing stems and including Egeria Densa (said to have "special" properties when it comes to dealing with some algaes).
Dosing TNC Carbon straight on to BBA. Either emerged areas during water changes or submerged areas with all circulation switched off.
Lighting increased from 20% to 50%. (I started at 100%, dropped it when I first started this thread and kept going down until the plants seemed to stop growing, and then brought it back up again just before I started adding significantly more plants).
Increased TNC Complete 7ml twice weekly. (50 litre tank).

Twice weekly 50+% water changes.
Changing the white pre-filter on my Juwel with every water change but I stopped meddling with the rest of the filter more recently as the pre-filter keeps it quite clean and I figured all I was achieving was to potentially mess with the development of the good bacteria for no good reason. The carbon gets changed about once per month.
I changed the motor on my Juwel from 300 lph to 600 lph. This, I think, has had a significant effect in three ways. More water (and therefore oxygen) through the filter to deal with bio filtration. Better circulation around the whole tank. Finally, because of the extra power, I am better able to get the water surface to swirl and churn vs the more direct and isolated agitation from the smaller pump.
I also have a Koralia Nano pump coming on for 15mins every hour throughout the day.
I also work quite hard to get into all the nooks and crannies to clear detritus from the gravel.
Fingers crossed, things seem to be working.

For anyone battling BBA - I've suffered with it with every single tank I've ever put wood into (is there a connection?!). Nevertheless, this is the first time I've bothered to try the direct dosing of TNC Carbon and I'm glad I did. Interestingly, almost as soon as it is treated (i.e. within a few hours) the shrimp are all over it; cleaning away the stuff with more enthusiasm than I've ever seen them consume anything other than fish food!


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