# CO2/Flow/Ferts deficiency?



## oliverpool (16 Mar 2015)

I am still having major issues with my tank.  Its a 3 feet tank with LED and CO2 injection.  Its been around for 1.5 years and I recently did a whole rescape. I basically siphon off perhaps half of the top soil and replaced it with new soil which I had placed in a bucket for 2 weeks in water (did some water change in the bucket every few days) I did not lose any fishes during the whole time. 4 weeks later, I started seeing yet again some issues with the plants.  

Here is a picture that I am having with even plants like crypts. Looks like a some ferts difficiency? some of the leaves on the crypts are not green but almost dark yellow and you can see the veins?






I am dosing full EI for my 50G tank, Macro and micros 3 times each every other day. 50% or more water change each week. I have a Ehiem 2076 which shows it is providing around 600l/hour and I supplemented it with a Vortech MP10ES running 24x7 in lagoon mode at 65%. Plants are swaying lightly. CO2 comes on 1 hours before light and the PH drops around 0.9 when they lights starts ramping up an hour later and by the time the lights are at full intensity (40 par or so at substrate) PH is down around 1 full PH plus minus 0.1 PH. Stays that way before the CO2 goes off 1.5 hours before lights out 8 hours of photo period including ramp up and down.  CO2 is via a self made cerges reactor at ehiem filter outlet. Some bubbles start to escape the reactor via the outflow in the middle of the photo period and stays that way.  Plants seems to be pearling 2 hours or so into the photo period and intense pearling midway in the photo period. CO2 indicator shows light green to yellow at start of lights and goes to dark green within 2 hours of light off.  I see my ph goes up to around 0.8PH around 3 hours after lights off. 

In addition to plants not looking good. These are some of the issue I am still facing.

1. I have some hair? algae growing on some of my fissiden on my driftwood. 

2. Slight BGA in only one area of my tank which I have been tryign to get rid of totally via KNO3 dosing directly at this area. BBA was a issue prior to the rescape but seem under control. 

3. Very few dots of green spots on the glass but I attribute it to the rescape  4 weeks ago. 

My water is very soft at almost 0GH and no calcium or magnisium, so I added MG to my macro dose and am now starting to add 1 teaspoon of Barr GH booster to my tank at every water change.  I add one more teaspoon in the middle of the week.  But in the past 2 weeks since I added MG and GH booster and increase my KNO3 and KH2PO4 another 10-15%? to be above EI for my tank, I am still not seeing improvements.  Hair algae seems to be still growing only in the fissidens area and the crypts leaves that are less green are still not turning colour. 

I am also seeing something strange in the area where I am have alot of ammania bonsai. I get some some big bubbles floating up every 30mins or so from the "substrate"? I tried smelling them to see if it was sulfur but there was no smell. Maybe oxygen from the roots of the ammania bonsai?  IS this normal? 

I cant increase my co2 without stressing some of the fishes.  I have a slight ripple on the surface of the water and no oily film. No chiller so my temp stays at around 25-27 degrees whole day round.  Could Temp be a issue for the fissidens not doing well? I can increase the flow more by increase the speed of the vortech but I estimate I am well in excess of the 10x flow. Both vortech and outflow are near each other pushing in the same direction. I can increase my LED lights by another 50% to get 80 Par if needed. But With all the algae issues waiting to pounce, I rather keep lights low till I solve all the issues.


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## ian_m (16 Mar 2015)

Unfortunately all points to CO2 issues, poor plants, hair algae, BGA, green spot as if dosing EI can't be a fertiliser issue.

You are adding MgSO4 ?

You probably need to seriously reduce you light level as it is clearly high due to pearling plants but far to high for your CO2 levels, leading to plants dying and algae rearing its head. Try say 50% light reduction and say only 4 hours until algae is under control.

To get rid of algae, remove as much as possible with say a tooth brush + water changes and black out for 3-4 days, cover tank with sheets, no peeking, no fish feeding, this should kill all the algae.

Other things, are you sure your water is 0GH, I assume this is water board figures, not test kit results ? Are you sure your lights are 80Par, how do you know ?

Are you sure your drop checker fluid is OK.

Lots of options above to try.


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## Jose (16 Mar 2015)

I agree with ian. If you lower your light youll be probably sorted very soon. Also dont worry about colour of crypts unless they die back. This is their normal colours and they change a lot due to conditions.


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## oliverpool (16 Mar 2015)

ian_m said:


> Unfortunately all points to CO2 issues, poor plants, hair algae, BGA, green spot as if dosing EI can't be a fertiliser issue.
> 
> You are adding MgSO4 ?
> 
> ...



This is the water quality report.  Soft water with no mg or calcium. Total hardness less then 3.  My sera gh kit changes colour on the first drop.  I never doses gh booster till 3 weeks ago. Which could be a problem as I probably been lacking in mg and calcium all along.  

I just cleared all plants with hair algae.  Changed out my wood.  Been dosing ei for months now. My light is 40 par which is medium lighting. I have a diy par meter from hoppy at planted tank and the measurements correlate with what my led maker data at half strength. The 80 par is what I can achieve but of course I am not running it! green dot algae does not seem to be a problem anymore. Last week I drop a bunch of Buce which had some green dot algae and today the dot algae are gone.  I also remove my wood and replaced it with a smaller one as I suspect it contributed to some flow issue. Today when I changed the wood and disturbed the soil it seems that the flow is good and there does not seem to be any dead spot. I will lower my light another 20% or so just to be sure. 

I am hoping it is a mg/calcium issue.  But with new vacuumed soil and all visible algae now gone, I hope I finally lick this.  Anyone running their tank at 26-27 degrees with success?


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## oliverpool (16 Mar 2015)

I did change my drop checker liquid recently. I really only use it as a backup in case my co2 ran out without me knowing!  I rely on ph drop and how my fish react to see if I need to increase my co2.  I have one fish that hates high co2. If it's up at the top I know it's as high as I can have it and drop it a little. Otos also seem to be at the glass near the top when the co2 levels are high.

I can't say I tested gh or kh recently but my water report says soft and no mg or calcium.

http://www.pub.gov.sg/general/watersupply/Pages/DrinkingWQReport.aspx

I do check my TDS occasionally and it's usually at 120-130 after water change and goes to around 200 before the water change day.


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## ian_m (16 Mar 2015)

Are you adding MgSO4 ?


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## oliverpool (16 Mar 2015)

ian_m said:


> Are you adding MgSO4 ?


Yes. I am now adding around 1/2 teaspoon per  week.  But this is only since a couple of weeks ago after reading the ei guide here and noticing I may not have enough mg.  the Barr gh booster also has mgso4 so at water change now I add a teaspoon of that which should also add calcium and mgso4. I would believe lack of mg would not have cause so much of my algae and plants issue?


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## ian_m (16 Mar 2015)

oliverpool said:


> Yes. I am now adding around 1/2 teaspoon per  week


What ???

Please dose EI and report back...For 50G should be in order of 1-2 tsp 2-4 times a week,

Please don't say you are dosing EI when you are clearly not. EI requires all the salts, just not the ones you fancy....


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## oliverpool (16 Mar 2015)

ian_m said:


> What ???
> 
> Please dose EI and report back...For 50G should be in order of 1-2 tsp 2-4 times a week,
> 
> Please don't say you are dosing EI when you are clearly not. EI requires all the salts, just not the ones you fancy....



My mistake. It's 1/2 teaspoon 3 times a week.  Note that the U.S. sites do not usually state that u need to dose mgso4.  I guess it's coz they have hard water? I will increase it to around 1 teaspoon.  Seems like a lot of mgso4!


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## ian_m (16 Mar 2015)

oliverpool said:


> will increase it to around 1 teaspoon


Still not EI. Please dose EI and report back.....

You should be looking at about 2tsp 2-4 times a week for the 5ppm IE dose.

Try this calculator with 225litre, DIY, MgSO4.7H20, dry dosing, "The Estimative Index" gives 11.5gr 2-4 times a week (5ppm). Rough estimate 6gr per tsp.
http://calc.petalphile.com/

There is no issue overdosing, I dosed at 60ppm MgSO4 when I had a pump failure, no issue to plants, or fish.


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## oliverpool (16 Mar 2015)

ian_m said:


> Still not EI. Please dose EI and report back.....
> 
> You should be looking at about 2tsp 2-4 times a week for the 5ppm IE dose.
> 
> ...




Roger.  My tank is 160liter.  I will do 1.5 teaspoon 3 times a week. Mgso4 is not cheap over here. I will be switching to Epsom salt from the supermarket once I finish my current pack.


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## ian_m (16 Mar 2015)

where is here please...?


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## oliverpool (17 Mar 2015)

ian_m said:


> where is here please...?



Here is Singapore! There is only one brand of "aquarium Mgso4" and its expensive.  But I know its actually just epson salt. Just wanted to get it right so that if it still does not solve my problem, I have one less thing to blame!  Oh... its that silly epsom salt. I should have gotten Mgso4 instead.  Never mind that Mgso4 is stated in the epsom salt pack anyway....


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## ltsai (17 Mar 2015)

Our tap water in Singapore is soft, both low on gh and kh.


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## Jose (17 Mar 2015)

Can you guys order it online? Epsom salt is MgSO4 yes.


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## ian_m (17 Mar 2015)

When I was in US, WalMart & Drug Stores sold gigantic bags of Magnesium Sulphate for soaking in the bath and foot soaks, for s*d all $$$. Something like 8lb (4Kg) for $1.99. Careful some is perfumed. On the instructions it has about other uses, garden fertiliser and also mentioned aquatic plant fertiliser. I would have bought some home but with only 20Kg luggage allowance would not have gone down well with the family swapping out the nice holiday presents for bargain MgSO4.

MgSO4, which you will probably not be able to get is a free flowing white powder. Upon exposure to air (especially damp air, ok like in Singapore) it absorbs water to become MgSO4.7H20 (hepta hydrate) which is white crystals we call Epsom Salts (first found in the springs in Epsom UK).

Just found this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnesium_sulphate

Anyway is cheapest of EI ingredients and is not optional.


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## ltsai (17 Mar 2015)

I just get mine from the pharmacy. There are a few options here locally, like Dr. Malik hydroponic store. Or you can ask at the local AQ forum, the guys will be able to help you to source locally.


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## oliverpool (17 Mar 2015)

ltsai said:


> I just get mine from the pharmacy. There are a few options here locally, like Dr. Malik hydroponic store. Or you can ask at the local AQ forum, the guys will be able to help you to source locally.



My current supply is from dr Malik store. Epsom salt from the supermart is likely to be the cheapest.  It's till going to be around us$3 per 500grams or so.  I would love to get 4kg for us$3!


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## ian_m (17 Mar 2015)

Try Ebay for Magnesium Sulphate and US spelling Magnesium Sulfate. Currently there is 25Kg for £17. Some of it is labelled "Organic" WTF....this is an inorganic salt, organic involves use of carbon compounds, should be no carbon in Epsom Salts....


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## oliverpool (17 Mar 2015)

ian_m said:


> Try Ebay for Magnesium Sulphate and US spelling Magnesium Sulfate. Currently there is 25Kg for £17. Some of it is labelled "Organic" WTF....this is an inorganic salt, organic involves use of carbon compounds, should be no carbon in Epsom Salts....



I never thought of eBay as these are heavy.  The price differnce between "brands" is amazing!  One of the 25 pounds per 28usd store includes free delivery is is strange.  The description is scary though.  It clearly states it is Magnesium Sulphate but its not for human consumption. I am sure the ones at the supermarket are for human consumption. The ones at the pharmacy? Or nursery? It's still Magnesium Sulphate right?


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## ian_m (17 Mar 2015)

oliverpool said:


> The ones at the pharmacy? Or nursery? It's still Magnesium Sulphate right?


Yes it can be used in cooking (marshmallows ?) but for fish tank usage doesn't need to be food grade. Foot & bath soaking is fine as long as it is not perfumed. My last batch of MgSO4 was Ebay for 2Kg as a foot & bath soak, just pure MgSO4. Fish are still alive, plants are green so all OK.


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## oliverpool (18 Mar 2015)

ian_m said:


> Yes it can be used in cooking (marshmallows ?) but for fish tank usage doesn't need to be food grade. Foot & bath soaking is fine as long as it is not perfumed. My last batch of MgSO4 was Ebay for 2Kg as a foot & bath soak, just pure MgSO4. Fish are still alive, plants are green so all OK.



Haa... ok Thanks!   I always wondered what food its used in. I tasted it and it does not taste good.


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## oliverpool (19 Mar 2015)

Here is my tank after the rescape. 






 I removed alot of the "old plants"  The area in the middle to the front left will be planted with Alternanthera reineckii Mini and rocks with Mini Pellia.  As I do have fishes like Pharos and Weizmannni in the tank, I did not want to remove too much plants and do soil removal and top up at one time.  The Albida's at the right will be removed and the crypts on the right will be move together with the batch on the left.  The shorter and longer green plants on the left are Rotala Bonsai. They were planted at two different times. All the plants in the front are actually on mess and are buces or various kinds.  

I also did a full filter and pipe cleaning yesterday. CO2 was checked. I redid a whole new batch of ferts for Micro and Macro. They are at full EI including MgSO4 as per the EI instructions with salts in the tutorial section here for my 50G. As it does not matter that it was level or heap teaspoon, I used level and added another 20% additional at the end so ferts should not matter.  At each water change I will be adding 2 teaspoon of Barr GH booster to my 50% water change from my tap since its soft with almost no minerals.  I could not find exact instructions for Barr GH booster but recall seeing 1 teaspoon per 5-10 gallon at water change? I will slowly increase it at each subsequent water change as I am not sure if my fishes would be happy with the sudden increase in hardness of water.  Lost a few Cherry shrimps and a oto. But Fishes and the bristlenose pleco and yamatos seems pretty ok.  The pharos did not seem to lose their colors which should indicate they are ok with it so far. The newer wood centerpiece is much smaller then my previous wood. So Flow should be better at the right area of the tank.  I will be removing items like the eheim skimmer as my tank seems to be pretty clear of oil even during photo periods when the skimmer is off. Oh, I lowered the lights around 20% as well.  The tank and plants seems to be doing better in the past 2 weeks.  I hope that I have licked this CO2/Ferts/Flow issue that I have been facing from day one.....


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## Frenchi (19 Mar 2015)

Hi
When I first started out with this planting bug I was struggling just as you ... I tried alsorts but the top and bottom of it was I just needed to listen to these people on here they sorted me out big style /-) 
Main points I did that sorted me was lower my lights until things started to show sure signs of growth , add the correct amount of co2 no matter how much faffing it takes and flow get that water moving round that tank so there is near on no dead spots . The more movement the better obviously without causing a whirlpool .. Also add the correct amount of Ei after you have done all that you will be soon going WOW!! Now I see 
Thanks

Mick 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## oliverpool (23 Mar 2015)

Frenchi said:


> Hi
> When I first started out with this planting bug I was struggling just as you ... I tried alsorts but the top and bottom of it was I just needed to listen to these people on here they sorted me out big style /-)
> Main points I did that sorted me was lower my lights until things started to show sure signs of growth , add the correct amount of co2 no matter how much faffing it takes and flow get that water moving round that tank so there is near on no dead spots . The more movement the better obviously without causing a whirlpool .. Also add the correct amount of Ei after you have done all that you will be soon going WOW!! Now I see
> Thanks
> ...



Haa.. struggling is right. There are days when you look at the tank and say what did I do to deserve such a nice tank........others.......

Things are still going well. I will be doing another rescape to remove the rest of the plants that I do not want followed by some cleaning of part of the substrate and a huge water change.

1. Good thing is that my GSA seems to have almost subside.

2. One spot of BGA near the soil seems to be subsiding as well.

3. I have been increasing my MP10 flow bit by bit and its at a level that it is starting to move my substrate below it. Had to back off somewhat. I still feel that flow could still be better. But am unsure how to go about it without making it rough for the fishes.

I am still unable to tell if the clado on my wood is growing or lessening and if I should use excel on it as it does look nice. It was already on the wood when I got it and I decided to leave it there


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## oliverpool (2 Apr 2015)

Still facing what I believe is bga issues.  Two problem areas at the bottom of the tank. They seem to flare up right after a water change.  I did three in 9 days now.  Full ei with 7 hours of way lowered light. Had to point my cam at something dark to even get a good picture of the tank. After each water change I added one full dose of ei daily dosage for npk to ensure there is enough nitrate.  I also add 3/4? Teaspoon of Barr BH booster to the tank.  My GH has gone up from 2 in the past 3-4 week to now 7-8. kH still below 1.  Co2 injection drops ph around 0.9 before lights comes on.  Can't to any higher or some fishes show stress.  Rcs stop feeding midway into the photo period but are ok upon lights out. No added a skimmer to my filter inlet hoping to boost oxygen In case it was a issue.

Picture of the bga on th glass






Picture of my tank now.






Stumped


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## sciencefiction (2 Apr 2015)

It looks like nutrient deficiencies to me seeing the yellowing older leaves it could be magnesium but it could be nitrogen too. . BGA after a water change could be lack of nitrate. Sprinkle some nitrates near the BGA and see. When do you dose macros after a water change? Lowering the lights will just slow down everything so you've time to react but won't sort anything permanently.


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## oliverpool (2 Apr 2015)

sciencefiction said:


> It looks like nutrient deficiencies to me seeing the yellowing older leaves it could be magnesium but it could be nitrogen too. . BGA after a water change could be lack of nitrate. Sprinkle some nitrates near the BGA and see. When do you dose macros after a water change? Lowering the lights will just slow down everything so you've time to react but won't sort anything permanently.



I added mg to my macro according to EI dosage.  With the addition of Barr gh booster after a water change I should be above excess for mg now.  

I dose macro immediately after my water change.  My macro dosage is base on 3 times a week.  In the past 3 water change, I added a forth dose immediately after water change.  I will try to dose nitrate on the bga again. I have some left over seachem nitrogen. Can I does that instead on the bga? What happens when u does nitrate directly at bga?


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## sciencefiction (2 Apr 2015)

oliverpool said:


> What happens when u does nitrate directly at bga?


 
Yes, dose it directly over it, can help get rid of it if that's the issue.


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## oliverpool (17 Apr 2015)

Still having issues.  Good thing is that I have not seen any BGA for the past 2 weeks.  But my lights has been so low that I may have missed some hair/BBA on my older plants.

I changed my LED lights (3 years old now)  as I did not like the color. May be old I do not know. But my Buildmyled lights just arrived last week. So I changed to it and been running it at around 40% (estimated 30-40 par) for around 1 week. I moved it up to now 55% (50-60 par) according to BML.  This was when I noticed that I have some hair algae growing on some of my crypts. I cut them away.  I also noticed some leaves on my buce having BBA around the edges.  So Even with low lights and pretty much the same CO2, I still am having some deficiency somewhere.  I am trying to increase my co2 bit by bit again since having the new lights. I believe that I should still be able to increase CO2 slightly as I have been running my skimmer 24x7 now to inject more o2. But I am at a loss now on whats causing the problem on my tank.

These are some of the things I could do.

1. continue with reduced lights. I have to say I have been running at medium low to low for over 4 weeks now. I still see some small dots of BBA on the glass which I clear at every water change. And now I noticed it growing on some of the older leaves as well.

2. Increase my lights to medium (50-60 par?) to help my plants grow better. not sure if thats the best thing to do when you are still facing algae problems.

3. Start dosing Excel at recommended dosage daily again.  I have mini pellia in my tank and they can be rather sensitive to excel in my experience.

4. Increase flow even more. All the leaves in my tank are swaying lightly. Which I take to mean that they are doing ok.

5. Stop using the skimmer? This seems to have a positive impact on my shrimps. I see them moving about during the photo period since I started the skimmer 24x7.

6. Increase CO2 even more. I get around 0.8 to 0.9 PH drop at this time. I noted that my PH after 24 hours in a cup is around 6.2.  My tank PH before co2 injection is around 5.9 to 6. It drops to 5.2 or there abouts when the lights come on. Its pretty much at 5.8-5.9 2-3 hours after lights out. 

7. EI is at recommend full EI dosage including MG.  50-60% water change every week with GH boosters additions of around 3 degree. Currrent GH is around 6-7. KH seems pretty much 0-1. Reduce or increase EI? I have a mind to reduce EI slightly as my plants are mainly slow growers. My TDS has been slowly going up due to the the ferts and GH boosters.  I used to have my TDS at pretty much less then 200 before water change. Now its like 350 before water change and down to 250 after water change and boosters. 

8. I do not have that many fishes but I have added like 20 more cherry shrimps and around 100 very young small malayan shrimps over the past 4 weeks. I should have 30 cherry and 100 small young malayan, 5-8? amano shrimps and 5 otos, 2 x small bristlenose pleco. 8 x silver? tetra (not big even after 1 over year), 6 Red Neons, 6 Pharos. 

Please also let me know anything I can try.


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## Jose (17 Apr 2015)

BBA appears a couple of weeks after its trigger happened. BBA seems to always be a CO2 thing. So two ways to fix it: light(less) and CO2(including flow and injection rate).


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