# ADA stockists other than TGM?



## Danny (4 Sep 2012)

Sent them an email asking if they would negotiate on the price of x8 ADA tanks ( £888 total ) and if they could arrange the drilling of a single hole in each and do you think they would.........nope, the drilling I was unsure of but thought they may offer a slight discount on the tanks.

If they are not prepared to even offer a 10% discount on something like that then I am not prepared to spend my money there, Has stuck a royal thorn in my plans for the new system using those tanks so need another stockist if possible even one in Europe that ships here.

If they would of offered some form of discount I would of asked about them getting the sump made and also bought all equipment from them so everything was bought in one go and arrived together but for their sheer greediness that have lost out on probably close to £2000.

Any shop that can turn their nose up at £800+ does not deserve my hard earned cash so now fully prepared to spend more now just to get the tanks somewhere other than there.


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## Danny (4 Sep 2012)

Just found a stockist list and one is a shop I know well so no worries


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## Matt Warner (4 Sep 2012)

It's funny you should say that, I think the green machine sells some great things, however I find them to be a bit up themselves. They shouldn't be because I've had one too many shipments of half dead plants and small portions from them. Im not the complaining type however but probably won't spend my money there again. I use aqua essentials now and have never had a bad shipment of plants. They are always healthy and massive portions too, then there's the price too, much cheaper than TGM!


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## Danny (4 Sep 2012)

Wish I had looked for a stockist list before, there is one only half hour drive away and another that I know well although not been there in a couple of years in Ireland, so stuff TGM they have lost any possible future custom from me also.


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## Ady34 (4 Sep 2012)

Hi,
Not 100% sure on this but in TGM's defence I think ADA fix the prices and they don't allow deviation. I could be wrong but I'm sure I've heard this before.
Ady


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (4 Sep 2012)

Ady34 said:
			
		

> Hi,
> Not 100% sure on this but in TGM's defence I think ADA fix the prices and they don't allow deviation. I could be wrong but I'm sure I've heard this before.
> Ady



I believe Ady is correct, price fixing means the Brand stays 'Desirable'. Lots of Companies ( ORrrr  BANKS! !!! ) do it


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## Garuf (4 Sep 2012)

TGM are also the company that distribute ADA in the uk, you're unlikely to save much, perhaps approaching someone like clearseal might be better?


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## Danny (4 Sep 2012)

Garuf said:
			
		

> TGM are also the company that distribute ADA in the uk, you're unlikely to save much, perhaps approaching someone like clearseal might be better?



PMSL hmm ADA or Clearseal.......... hard choice lmfao

Their is a shop in Ireland cheaper at retail price than TGM for most of the ADA stuff they both stock   They all have their set mark ups so just depends if they want to do a deal or not and TGM obviously do not want to deal.

Does it being price fixed mean the staff at TGM do not get staff discount on any of it.......I think not


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## RossMartin (4 Sep 2012)

Price fixing is more common than you think. When you buy a pint of Guinness, it's prices are fixed. I used to work for a multi national pub company!


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## andyh (4 Sep 2012)

I am not sure publicly bashing TGM is really going to help and not wanting to get drawn into this, but have you considered that £800ish is not really a big enquiry and worth discounting? Remember a normal full setup to them is probably £1000 to £2000 if not more.....

As for plant problems people, they have a plant guarantee why didn't you claim under that, not that i have ever experienced anything but exceptional plants in the hundreds i have bought.

P.s If you need tanks drilling approach one of the marine companies, they all do it as they have sumps etc. There is quite a skill to it.  Fills me with Dread the thought of drilling my ADA tank :?    

Cheers
Andyh


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## Fox (5 Sep 2012)

I have an account with one of the food manufacturers (for own use), and enquired about perhaps buying a bit to re-sell, but I wasn't allowed to sell cheaper than RRP as it "devalues the brand" (or something like that).


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## Garuf (5 Sep 2012)

Danny, I was merely suggesting that clearseal would be cheaper. I've bought tanks from them in the past and though not optiwhite the silicon work is as good as the Do aquatanks I've seen. It depends on what you're after at the end of the day. If you want cheaper ADA, buy from Germany or elsewhere in the EU and have it DHL'd over here, it's normally about 20% cheaper.


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## Iain Sutherland (5 Sep 2012)

RossMartin said:
			
		

> Price fixing is more common than you think. When you buy a pint of Guinness, it's prices are fixed. I used to work for a multi national pub company!



thats is not the case, price set by the company maybe not by guinness.

However it wouldnt suprise me if ADA is price fixed and id bet TGM's mark up is fairly slim to start with. Still 80% of something is better than 100% of nothing.


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## RossMartin (5 Sep 2012)

easerthegeezer said:
			
		

> RossMartin said:
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With guinness that is the case. They tell the pub companies what price to sell their products at, unless something has changed since Monday!


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## Garuf (5 Sep 2012)

It's about a 40% mark up on ADA. 

What I do find strange is even at that mark up the price to the distributor is about the same as the retail price of ADA in the US. I attribute this to shipping but I've been told there's very little difference in it. I don't know what the tax levels are like, I'm not from customs and excise but I think it's unlikely to come in on a premium goods tariff. 

I have to agree with Andy on this though, a public bashing of TGM probably isn't the best way of dealing with this, though I appreciate that negative feedback is vitally important to be available I don't think it's best aired like this, I mean I have had my own negative experiences with TGM, AE too, taken out of context though they paint a picture that isn't true.

They are at the end of the day a premium shop selling premium products and this should be expected to carry a premium price tag, they're selling a lifestyle with an associated cost, they are also essentially a monopoly with being the distributor so the price will always be fairly even, if people want to buy from that's their choice but there are alternatives, 90% of the ada product range isn't an essential to succeeding with a planted tank.

It's also worth pointing out that we didn't always have ADA in the UK and we got on fine without it, there are more products on the market now that rival ada than there has ever been. The thing with ADA tanks is that though desirable and beautiful works of craftsman ship, the glass is thinner than most tank builders would allow you to build in, this is part of the reason why they are cheaper than a custom tank in some cases, also the economy of scale from building thousands of units. Other than the tanks and possibly the new LED rig which I would say represent the best choices for the money generally speaking the rest is easily found in ranges from other companies for less. 

You have to hand it to TGM though for all peoples misgivings and peoples perceptions that they're "up themselves" they have done a lot for the hobby and I suspect the hobby would be in a worse state than it is without them.


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## Stitch (5 Sep 2012)

Why do people say "they are up themselves"?

I guess everyone's experience is different but for me they are by far the BEST company I have dealt with in the industry. They have always gone out of their way to actually talk to me and explain things in detail, either on the phone or via email. They have never pushed the most expensive products and actually help me select the right product for the job. I honestly can't speak high enough of their customer service and recommend them regularly.

Seems silly to post a message because they wouldn't give you a bit of discount. Perhaps those tanks are difficult to drill and so they would rather not take the chance. Anyway, i'm guessing you'd prefer a specialist company do that part anyway.

Have you only dealt with them on email? Perhaps you might be reading it in a way it's not meant? I suggest actually giving them a call and speaking to Mark or James.

If they can't discount the tanks then perhaps they can do you a little deal on something else (substrate / plants / food / bottles / powders etc.) if you buy everything through them?

Up to you though.


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## Danny (5 Sep 2012)

At the end of the day it is not about money or I would not of chosen those tanks, I choose those tanks because I like them not because they are cheap.

If that amount of money is nothing to them then they do not need if off me, as I said I will happily pay more to get them elsewhere now, the offer of some form of discount or offer of a deal with other items just would of been nice to show they care about your custom.

As they obviously do not then I will not be using them simples.

Also there have been numerous posts on here about how over priced they are especially with their rocks which are 5x the price of elsewhere.


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## johnski (5 Sep 2012)

Matty1983 said:
			
		

> It's funny you should say that, I think the green machine sells some great things, however I find them to be a bit up themselves. They shouldn't be because I've had one too many shipments of half dead plants and small portions from them. Im not the complaining type however but probably won't spend my money there again. I use aqua essentials now and have never had a bad shipment of plants. They are always healthy and massive portions too, then there's the price too, much cheaper than TGM!



When I win the lottery, I'll maybe start thinking about buying my stuff from TGM. 

Have you tried http://www.poseidons-palace.co.uk/Poseidons_Aquariums/Rimless Aquariums.htm Danny? I bet he'd drill the tanks however you want no problem.


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## Antipofish (5 Sep 2012)

Hmmm.  Well I am always the first to criticise if I do not receive good customer service, but I am not sure that declining a discount comes into that category.  Generally I have found that discounts are available on more "run of the mill" products and that luxury goods (such as an ADA tank or most things considered 'premium quality') tend to be the price they are.  Oftentimes discounts can be made available on the side goods such as substrate where a greater profit margin is available in the first place, but there is no mention of you asking about that Danny.  

I would have thought it better, if you wanted to negotiate a deal, to have called them as I suspect they get a lot of emails of people who wish they could afford ADA stuff but want it cheaper.  Now, I realise you have told us that you can afford it, but they would not necessarily know that from the email you described.  So to them it was probably a bit like someone emailing a Mercedes dealership wanting BMW prices.  In this instance I can understand their reluctance, especially if you weigh up that you were asking them to take on some considerable risk too with drilling.  Would you have paid for a split tank if the drilling went wrong, or would that have been their responsibility, even though they had discounted the price in the first place ? 

TGM have high prices.  We all know that.  To an extent I even respect that because for whatever failings James may have, he is an excellent business man who has built up quite a reputation and contributed significantly to our hobby.  

I also have had nothing but excellent customer service from him and his team.  I have spent long conversations on the phone with Jim and the others, making use of their expertise, and not really rewarded them for that with many purchases so I guess you could say that is the flip side of the coin.

Danny, you are entitled to your opinion, and also to buy your products anywhere you like, but in this instance I have to observe that I don't believe they deserve such a public trouncing, especially when its on a general forum as opposed to one which they can respond to should they have wished. 

Good luck with your set up though.  It sounds pretty amazing and I will be watching the thread.  Whether you choose ADA products (which I consider to be vastly overpriced regardless of who sells them) or another one of the very good manufacturers, I am sure it will look great.

Have you considered Aqua Jardin ?  I recently purchased a used Optiwhite tank from their PureAqua range, along with stand and a few other bits.  I think the quality is there, though perhaps not quite as spot on as ADA, but then I guess thats where the price differential comes in.  Its more than good enough for me though


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## geoffbark (5 Sep 2012)

I can't believe that people are having a bad experience with TGM. They are by far the best retailer I have been to in this country. Closely followed by the likes of the abyss 

As for discount don't shop for food in M & S if all you can afford is asda. 

And don't buy a Rolls Royce if you want a kit car!!! 

ADA is no good if you want a custom fit


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## andyh (5 Sep 2012)

geoffbark said:
			
		

> I can't believe that people are having a bad experience with TGM. They are by far the best retailer I have been to in this country. Closely followed by the likes of the abyss
> 
> As for discount don't shop for food in M & S if all you can afford is asda.
> 
> ...



 :text-+1: i agree, for me TGM is a unique and excellent shop. i spend 99% of my money there


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## owenprescott (5 Sep 2012)

As someone new to Aquatic planting I have to say TGM's prices were a little intimidating. It is simply a matter of being prepared to premium prices for what is essentially a brand retailer who also stocks top brand goods. I have not seen many items on their site that are not available elsewhere so there is nothing really stopping anyone from shopping around, I personally would only order one-off's from them and go with other sites if I need to buy in bulk. I do not see why you would stop shopping with them just because they did not give your a discount though, they set the prices so why plan on using those products if it is too much.


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (5 Sep 2012)

andyh said:
			
		

> geoffbark said:
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Thats because the prices are extortionate!


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## Ady34 (5 Sep 2012)

What we should also consider is that TGM are an actual shop with overheads etc that need covering. I thoroughly enjoy a trip to see the impressive (and costly to set up and maintain) display tanks and the friendly and knowledgeable staff who are always happy to give advice. The prices may be a little higher but the expertise and dedication to the hobby are second to none and therefore can warrant a little extra to cover costs. Some of the points raised are valid and it's true that we do like to be able to strike a bit of a deal, but we also need to first show a little loyalty and business to retailers before we can "expect" any discounts   In my experience after a few visits and online purchases TGM help out where they can.
Cheerio
Ady


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## Garuf (5 Sep 2012)

For me feeling I got my moneys worth is far more important than a shop that I can't get to but then I'd say I'm an A-typical consumer. It depends on what you want, I prefer to buy after research and this isn't always possible in a shop and is certainly easier online plus, you pay what you feel the product is actually worth this way as well, this is why I like to buy products from warehouse type operations, zooplus et al because I'm paying for what I feel the product is really worth not the product plus overheads and everything else, I've gone to buy exactly what I want because I know what I want before hand and I want that at what I feel is it's actual worth.

 I have to admit I don't really agree with a lot of the advice I've had from tgm in the past, trying to sell me penac and the rest when I was buying substrate and if I hadn't have already known it was crap I'd have bought it then felt cheated, being anti EI, promoting leds that burn more watts than the equivalent t5s etc but what they do well is inspire people when they do manage to find their shop and though some of their advice is bunk they're a good at providing inspiration and a certain element of a safety net to people who would otherwise feel totally bewildered and lost, it depends what you want and as mentioned there are alternatives. 
I think Owen has the most sensible point, if you can get it elsewhere cheaper buy it from there, if you can't and it's a one off then TGM is the place to go, this is certainly how I've always thought of them.


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## Gary Nelson (5 Sep 2012)

Same thoughts here, prices are higher, but with that you get a dedicated service and a good product. Like Ady says if you go instore its a setup that not many other places have to offer, plus lets not forget the cups of tea and cake they offer, amongst other things when events are held - even my dog got a warm welcome when in the shop when me and the mrs were on our way to a weekend break.

We all like a bargain and we all like to shop about for that bargain, but sorry, i dont agree with TGM being slated.

Thats my view anyway.


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (5 Sep 2012)

Well, i understand all your points, but I believe at double the mark up on ADA products especially compared to AFA in America, TGM is overpriced. 

However, understanding who is to blame for price hike is more questionable. For example, Tax rates are different, ( so theres £20 of your hard earned cash on those ADA Tweezers, going to some lout with 14 kids), import duties, price fixing by ADA & then TGM themselves, who obviously have to make money after everything is paid.

So question the system, not necessarily the End Retailer. 

That being that, I would try my hardest to buy from AFA and import it. This is why shops are dying a death, because of availability elsewhere. 

At the end of the day, loyalty doesn't pay the Rent.

Cheers,


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## Garuf (5 Sep 2012)

And people in the US deride AFA for being more expensive than the Senske brothers' ADG...! I've been reliably informed ADA is actually cheaper in the US than it is in Japan, which I find very hard to believe. 

I have to agree, it's hard to see where the additional cost is coming from but when AE were the only people bringing in ADA the prices weren't that much cheaper.

The thing is we have a Government that just allowed the biggest 4 tax avoiders get away without paying what they owe, who if they paid it all back we would as a nation be out of debt, that's how much they owe... things like that put paying more than we feel we should into perspective a bit more.


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## andyh (5 Sep 2012)

i happen to work for a very large Japanese company, so I have some basic understanding of import/export etc and the one thing your all forgetting is currency. Pound to Yen has been terrible for years, and i mean dire. Most Japanese manufactured products have suffered terribly prices have increased year on year. So this will not help.

Plus lets not forget ADA is a premium product, just like Eheim, just like Audi, Rolex etc.................. They still manage to do very well as demand is there, it just doesn't suit everybody's budget for their hobbies.

I am happy to pay more at TGM for excellent service and shop with setups like no other in the UK.


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## skeletonw00t (5 Sep 2012)

Why do people always expect a "deal" these days...

The price is the price.

This isn't a market in Morroco & you can't barter for everything.


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## Garuf (5 Sep 2012)

Because money is harder to come by than it ever has been? 

The whole issue here stems from knowing you can get it cheaper from abroad, blaming tgm isn't going to change that but perhaps understanding why the price difference is so large will finally put a death-knell in a topic that's been around for as long as I can remember. As an aside, ADA tanks are made in germany, you could probably find the manufacturer of it them with some digging.


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (5 Sep 2012)

andyh said:
			
		

> i happen to work for a very large Japanese company, so I have some basic understanding of import/export etc and the one thing your all forgetting is currency. Pound to Yen has been terrible for years, and i mean dire. Most Japanese manufactured products have suffered terribly prices have increased year on year. So this will not help.
> 
> Plus lets not forget ADA is a premium product, just like Eheim, just like Audi, Rolex etc.................. They still manage to do very well as demand is there, it just doesn't suit everybody's budget for their hobbies.
> 
> I am happy to pay more at TGM for excellent service and shop with setups like no other in the UK.




To someone who hasn't seen the benefits of the shop, or understand TGM's impact on UK aquascaping, its just another online store though.

Im sure as hell I wouldnt go and buy a brand new Audi at at shop £2000 more expensive than another because of who the shop were. 

Obviously this doesn't directly compare to 'audi from an Audi garage' or a 'run of the mill standard garage'  as the product aftercare could possibly be different. As cars need maintaining.

Tweezers are tweezers. You buy a product. If faulty goes directly back to
ADA anyway.

Its a hard one, as I would love to see a lot more shops like TGM over the country, but everything is pound, shilling and pence at the moment.


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## andyh (5 Sep 2012)

Whitey89 said:
			
		

> Im sure as hell I wouldnt go and buy a brand new Audi at at shop £2000 more expensive than another because of who the shop were.
> 
> Obviously this doesn't directly compare to 'audi from an Audi garage' or a 'run of the mill standard garage'  as the product aftercare could possibly be different. As cars need maintaining.
> 
> ...


Whitey

Thats not my point nobody would pay more for the same product, i am saying ada like audi is a premium brand and whether you buy it here, there or in the USA, Europe etc its still going to by at the higher end of the market it terms of price.

All this speculation of being able to buy cheaper elsewhere forgets a couple of major points yes you can save a couple of % on the upfront price however the taxes and postage quite often counter act that. Plus when it goes wrong you have a right headache.

 anyway i am going to withdraw from this thread as its all getting a little to political now......... And i don't do political


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## geoffbark (5 Sep 2012)

As whitey wrote " a set of tweezers is just a set of tweezers " and a Audi is just a Audi. 

I own both. I paid for my tweezers at TGM and I paid for my Audi at Audi used car sales. 

I paid over the odds for my car and my tweezers for the aftercare service. 

Stop slating a great British company TGM are all about our hobby and survive in a country with ever increasing prices.


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## Iain Sutherland (5 Sep 2012)

I other thing that everyone seems to be forgetting is that TGM is a sponsor on this site, their contribution goes towards ukaps's ability to be present at events such as aquatics live and to even keep this site running.

I dont understand why no discount was offered, on the face of it it makes good business sense to do so, however none of us work there or have anything but guesses as to why they trade as they do.

You have free will , buy or dont buy!! Negative opinions of sponsors should not be posted on a thread like this.
I believe the OP should have PM'd TGM to give his opinion in situations such as this.
Most other forums i use would close the thread down and i believe rightly so.


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (5 Sep 2012)

andyh said:
			
		

> Whitey89 said:
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I know what you mean mate, I am in fact putting both sides across. 

I suppose its up to personal preference, If I had just a little more money i would go with TGM, just I don't, but still desire that top end product.

I would rob a bank, but when asked what I spent the money on, I'd be embarrassed to say 
'2 pairs of scissors and some pinsettes' .

'I'm off to rob a couple more to get me the tank and light unit !!'


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## Antipofish (5 Sep 2012)

easerthegeezer said:
			
		

> I other thing that everyone seems to be forgetting is that TGM is a sponsor on this site, their contribution goes towards ukaps's ability to be present at events such as aquatics live and to even keep this site running.
> 
> I dont understand why no discount was offered, on the face of it it makes good business sense to do so, however none of us work there or have anything but guesses as to why they trade as they do.
> 
> ...



Iain, are you saying that just because TGM are sponsors of UKAPS that someone should not be able to air a grievance they feel they have ?  Or just this particular issue that has been raised ?  

I think the thing that is wrong is the rule that sponsors may not comment on general threads.  Normally I would support this rule, but I think it needs to be defined better.  I personally think that where a member posts a thread that indicates an issue such as this, then the sponsor should have the right to respond, but under 'normal' circumstances they should remain mute (IE to prevent biased sales based comments, lol).    But I don't think that just because TGM, (or any other sponsor), donates money to the running of UKAPS, that they assume the right not to have anything negative said about them as that smacks of censorship to me (regardless of what other forums may/may not do).  Everyone is accountable and forum operators owe it to their members to allow the negative along with the positive. 

It is a shame that TGM cannot reply though, so maybe if a member has a grievance about a sponsor then a different rule should apply, whereby such grievances can only be aired on the sponsor's forum.  But then the sponsor would delete any threads they don't like (as has happened when I believed I had a grievance about a different sponsor).  And thats something I don't agree with either.  

Tough call at the end of the day but one thing I cannot abide is censorship.


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (5 Sep 2012)

Yeah, True Dat Chris.

I have had some fantastic service from TGM in the past, In no way am I questioning them on that front. 

I'm stating I cannot afford the prices they charge for some items.
 I cannot wait to go down and see the place. 

I'm out,


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## Antipofish (5 Sep 2012)

Whitey89 said:
			
		

> Yeah, True Dat Chris.
> 
> I have had some fantastic service from TGM in the past, In no way am I questioning them on that front.
> 
> ...



I cannot fault their service either.  I wish they were closer as I suspect I'd be in there all the time.  Thats me gone now too.  Think alls been said that needs to be


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## Morgan Freeman (5 Sep 2012)

I can't take any company seriously if they sell products like Penac. Sorry. It's too ridiculous.


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## Danny (5 Sep 2012)

Jeasous if I knew that my comment would kick this off I would of stayed quiet lol It was merely a comment of my opinion and reason for looking elsewhere for a ADA stockist.

So in reply to what I can remember of all the comments here goes lol

1, Money is not an issue, the retail of the tank is £111 at TGM and also at a shop I can drive to and collect in person so will pay the same there as would TGM but with TGM inc delivery so for everyone and their comparisons of this and that money is not an issue, they cost what they cost and I want them for what they are not what they cost but if I can get some money off that will be a bonus if I can not I will just get them at their price, if you don't ask you don't get.

If I wanted a cheaper crappy looking system I would simply divide 2 4ft tanks, but I do not want that.

I thought that with all the high opinions of customer service TGM may offer a slight discount and TBH I would of been happy with a fiver off just for the sake of it and the gesture otherwise what makes them different to the shop I can go to near home or any other shop selling the tanks at the same price?

2, I would not of experienced their "ground breaking customer service and support" as I simply wanted to buy some tanks and possibly a few other bits that, I would not of got in to discussion with them but simply ask if they can meet my needs or not simples.

3, If I walk into any shop willing to spend that sort of money I would ask for some form of discount no matter what it was, IMO if a shop values your custom they will give a slight discount just to stop you going elsewhere if nothing else.


As previously said if they can afford to turn their noses up at an initial sale of over £800 then they do not need my money, I could open an aquatics shop tomorrow if I choose two and get everything I wanted at trade or even easier just go to either of the MA that provide discount on anything I buy. If I wanted to take it a step further I could have them imported from China as I also have business dealings there and associate's that I could with an email tell to purchase and add on to the next container that is sent.

At the end of the day my initial comment was merely that a comment as to why I was looking for other stockists of ADA and that I am disappointed with TGM.

If you guys want to carry on this thread of why they are so great go for it, I will not be using them and that is my choice simples.

Think I covered everything, bored of writing this now so if I missed anything tuff lol


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## dw1305 (5 Sep 2012)

Hi all,
I'm not having a go at TGM, I've never been, but I think you've got to admire what they have done for the hobby. They are supplying a niche market and I hope that that niche remains large enough for them to thrive.


> I can't take any company seriously if they sell products like Penac. Sorry. It's too ridiculous.


Having said that I have to agree with Morgan about ADA, this is definitely the "Emperor's New Clothes" syndrome.

cheers Darrel


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## owenprescott (5 Sep 2012)

All businesses should be open to criticism, even sponsors in my opinion, I am sure we are all grown up enough to weigh up the pros and cons before making purchases. If you think about it members on these type of forums are in a good position to offer both positive and negative feedback, if stockists like TGM believe they can always improve then it is good to find out what people consider the bad and the good aspects.


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## viktorlantos (5 Sep 2012)

Yup us distri is different from eu ones. We're the crazy tax payers for no reason  deals are different per countries. What if ADA give a spec rate to adg or afa just to spread the word in the states? Nearly everything is cheaper in the US.


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## viktorlantos (5 Sep 2012)

On drilling, our aquarium manufacturer does not take the risk to drill a finished tank. They usually do this when the tank is in glass table yet. If a drilling damage the glass, then they get a new glass for less money. But if they broke an ADA glass then that's it. There is always a risk.


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## viktorlantos (6 Sep 2012)

On discount i agree with the others it maybe not fair to hit them why they do not give a discount to you. There are several things in the background what we could not see, the expensive Yen nowadays is only one of them.


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