# EI thoughts



## GlassWalker (8 Aug 2014)

I just spent the night reading through the existing EI threads on here... not sure I retained all of it!

I've been having thoughts about EI in general. I bought the APF EI kit a while back, and have used it to various degrees. Right now, I have 3 freshwater planted tanks, no CO2. I'm assuming my plant growth will be CO2 limited, therefore I do not need a full dose. I do 1x macro and 2x micro doses a week, with typically 25 to 35% weekly water changes. I add the all the doses just after the water change and that's it until the next week.

Comment 1: the EI method I've seen doses macro and mico on alternate days. I believe this was due to the iron trace potentially precipitating out due to phosphate. A separate question was then raised, don't they still meet in tank and precipitate? I never got an answer to that one, and it was moot anyway. I located the original trace supplier in the APF kit, and the manufacturer states the iron chelation means it wont get precipitated by phosphate.

Comment 2: I believe I have seen many times on this forum, the extra nitrate etc. from EI doesn't matter to the health of fish. If I understand correctly, the weekly dose from EI isn't much anyway, and probably not that significant compared to that produced by my fish loading levels.

Give the two above, is there a good reason why I should (or shouldn't) just dump a week's worth of ferts in the tank in one go? To me that is easier than doing 3 doses each of 2 solutions through a week. I can just do that after the routine water change.

Side note: I am going CO2 so I am assuming I will need the increased ferts. As a follow up question, is there a preferred order for ramping up CO2 and/or ferts? I assume the ferts would need to be available before I turn up the CO2? The CO2 will be gradually increased anyway.


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## EnderUK (8 Aug 2014)

You said you're not dosing CO2 so no really reason not to put it all in after a water change. I dump in my EI macro and micro at the same time in daily dosage simply because I forget quite a lot and feel that if I do forget, at least the plants got both KNP and traces the previous day. EI is just a guide, you can alter it to suit your habbits.


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## GlassWalker (8 Aug 2014)

Rereading it again, I didn't make it clear, but I am going CO2. I just want to check for anything I may have overlooked if I can or can't put a full weekly dose in one go. And presumably I should up the ferts before I up the CO2 so they have enough when it hits them? Or should I do these in a gradual manner?


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## ceg4048 (8 Aug 2014)

Please dose per the schedule listed in the Tutorial. Observe the tanks response for several weeks prior to deviating from the published schedule.

Cheers,


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## ian_m (8 Aug 2014)

GlassWalker said:


> and the manufacturer states the iron chelation means it wont get precipitated by phosphate


Yes if mixed in a test tube. However in your tank the pH can cause the iron be freed and thus react with phosphate. See graph below.






You need to does as per EI so that plants have roughly constant dosing levels rather than dumped in all one go.

Any as gec says dose as per tutorial, much research and great success is obtained by following the EI dosing. Any deviation is just asking for trouble, algae, poor plant health.

If you can't be a*sed to dose daily then EI isn't for you or get a dosing pump.


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## GlassWalker (8 Aug 2014)

http://www.solufeed.co.uk/international-horticulture/hydroponic-fertilizers/solufeed-tec.aspx

Above is the trace used in APF's EI kit. I note EDTA is used, thus based on the chart above (and also checked elsewhere) a pH <7 is required for complete stability. Maybe that is the case in the hydroponics use - I know a guy at work currently going through hist first hydroponic growing season and we exchanged discussion about the use of fertlisers. I did find it curious he was instructed to keep the pH in a certain range around 6 I think. So in that case the trace manufacturer could be correct in their intended use case. They don't know we're using it otherwise. It looks like the other EDTA chelated trace are ok at higher pH at least.

That also helps me understand, in previous chat with John (APF), he suggested the addition of a little citric acid if I wanted to make an all-in-one mix.

So if I can summarise, dosing macro/micro on alternate days would still be required to prevent iron reacting and precipitating out with phosphate. That brings me back to an earlier question: doesn't it still precipitate out when mixed in tank? Or is the reaction slow enough at that dilution the plants have a good enough chance to use it before it is lost?

BTW on daily dosing, I will have to set up to that. Currently I'm on daily pills for blood pressure control. I don't always remember to take them... if I can't do that, what chance do the ferts have?


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## Edvet (8 Aug 2014)

I guess in the tank the dilution prevents problems.
I personally give macro's mon, wed and fri, micro's tue and thur. Before i leave for work i chuck some powder in a litercup, ad hot water, stir and pour it in the sump (a few spoons of the macro's or a small spoon of the micro's), i don't see the problem.


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## EnderUK (8 Aug 2014)

DIY all in one solution

This is based off the Barr report so you could dose at the same time you feed your fish if you have a difficult time remembering. I basically added all the macro for a week devided it by 7 therefore getting the daily dosage. I have a seperate bottle for macros and traces so don't have to bother with the stablizers.

The reason why it doesn't precipitate in the tank is because the concentration or ppm is much lower in the tank than in the all in one solution.

I think I read some where that Tom Barr doses his tanks with Macros minimum of twice a week and does daily trace dosaging when he remembers. He stated in that post that dumping the whole lot into the tank once a week wasn't optimal. The idea behind EI tutorial is so that you can't blame neutrients when you start getting algae, it also setups a routine. If you start getting problems you will need to start looking at co2, flow and lighting.


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## GlassWalker (8 Aug 2014)

I have the APF EI kit, so I already have separate mixes of macro and micro and don't need to make an all in one mix.

Good point that I could dose when feeding in evenings. I don't forget that as I always get home to lots of hungry mouths. It was in the morning when I'm more likely to forget to do things, and I was pretty bad when I used to use EasyCarbo, which I recall was best used in mornings as it degrades in tank quickly. Already my evening routine is to feed the free swimming tropical fish, feed the bottom feeding tropical fish, feed the marine fish, then feed the corals. Feeding plants could be added to that list.

A different optimisation: how strong can the stock solutions be made? I use dosing bottles, but with 3 tanks to do they don't last long and I'm forever mixing up batches. If I go CO2 and start increasing the dose, it'll go even faster. I suppose I could do a big mix elsewhere to refill the dosing bottles too, but the other alternative is to increase the strength closer to saturation, wherever that is.

I have already made micro stronger - double strength, half volume dose compared to normal. I assume you can't do that to macro, since there's already a lot of stuff in there and I don't know where the solubility limit is. But... having said that, could some of the non-phosphate macro be put into the micro mix instead? This is purely for mixing and dosing convenience. Less dose of higher concentration means I need to mix up less total volume.


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## ian_m (8 Aug 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> Please dose per the schedule listed in the Tutorial. Observe the tanks response for several weeks prior to deviating from the published schedule.
> 
> Cheers,


As once already stated....Observe the tanks response for several weeks prior to deviating from the published schedule....That includes mixture strength as well as dosing times.


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## GlassWalker (8 Aug 2014)

I've used EI in many variations in the past and I'm not afraid to dose, all I'm looking for is to turn up the source concentration a bit to make things easier. I've even dry dosed before. Other than iron and phosphate precipitation, is there anything else in trace reacting with other macros that are a concern? If not, then it is trivial to move stuff around. I am not increasing or decreasing dose (yet).


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## ian_m (8 Aug 2014)

GlassWalker said:


> Other than iron and phosphate precipitation, is there anything else in trace reacting with other macros that are a concern?


I remember reading rumours of the chelated copper reacting with macro to produce toxic inorganic copper salts, killing invertebrates (shrimp). This was someone not following EI dosing values "as he knew better" dumping concentrated mixes in once a week..

I am sure I read somewhere that you can't increase the solutions strength too much or else the salts will no longer dissolve, especially when cold, though a quick Wikipedia of the salts involved reveals they are all fairly soluble.


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## EnderUK (8 Aug 2014)

ian_m said:


> As once already stated....Observe the tanks response for several weeks prior to deviating from the published schedule....That includes mixture strength as well as dosing times.




I feel like making a matrix....



 

Sorry couldn't resist. Yeah I know it's terribly wrong but couldn't get MS word to do exactly what I wanted and gave up. The point is that adding 20ppm split over two days is the same as splitting it over 3, 4 or 7. It's not like the plants wake up and think, "hay it's monday I really fancy some KNP". I'm not saying don't use the tutorial a lot of the other EI dosage guides you find on the net reference Ceg's so it is probably the best one to work off and the one I base my daily dosage off. I use it with a pinch of salt.

EI is meant to be simple, and fit into a routine suitable for those who are using while still allowing the plants to have the maximum intake of nutrients. If you want to dose day 1-4 and have 3 days rest you can. I'm not saying Glasswalker should cut the dosage. He's saying he wants a more concentrated solution and use smaller capfulls, Again that's fine as well since if you use 10ml to dissolve 1 tsp rather than 25ml you're still dosing 1 tsp.

If you want to work out a higher liquid concentration that you can use.

*Yet Another Nutrient Calculator*

You kind of have to work out how many grams are in your tsp dosage via ppm and then work from there. It tells you if you reach the maximum solubility of the salt which you can find here.


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## Edvet (8 Aug 2014)

I used to do 5 tablespoons of KNO3 and 1 tablespoon PO4 and 2 tablespoons MgSO4 in one lit hot water. Stirr till solved


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## GlassWalker (8 Aug 2014)

Thanks all.

Things to add to my to do list:
1 research further about possible toxicity of copper. Side comment - I've tried twice to keep cherry shrimp and failed miserably both times. Never found the reason. I also have amano shrimp and they seem indestructible even with questionable fishy friends.
2 play about with those calculators - I know there is a limit to solubility, hence the original question... does saturation "add up"? Assuming the components don't react with each other anyway...

And that matrix looks scary, like a nightmare hybrid of chemistry and mathematics at school...


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## dw1305 (8 Aug 2014)

Hi all, 





> hence the original question... does saturation "add up"?


 Yes it does, once a solution is saturated with ions you can't add any more. This is why you can't get all the sugar in your tea cup to dissolve after the 5th teaspoon. If you evaporate the saturated solution compounds will salt out in their order of solubility, least soluble first. Pretty useful for a chemist, but irrelevant to us.  

You can get insoluble compounds formed if you add your macro/micro solutions together, but realistically you can ignore that as well. Iron is the only real exception, which is why we use that in a chelated form.

If you are worried about copper you can add some dead leaves, the shrimps will enjoy them and the DOC they produce will complex metals like zinc and copper. 

cheers Darrel


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