# Emersed Aroid substrate



## greenbliss (10 Jun 2021)

I am curious about what sort of substrates everyone that grows aquatic aroids emersed (Lagenandra, Cryptocoryne, Bucephalandra etc..) uses? I am personally currently using "Westland Pond plant potting soil" as well as regular compost mixed with grit (sand) and I definitely need to change it for most of my plants as a lot of them seem to be suffering. Also this soil mixture was only going to be temporary but due to circumstances I ended up neglecting the plants and ended up never repotting them. However I am currently getting around to it and it definitely got me thinking a little.

First of all, I definitely want to stop using a "one size fits all" solution, as Cryptocoryne and Lagenandra can be quite diverse in their geographical distribution and as a result are found in multiple types of environments that can be vastly different. Of course, most sources of information about Cryptocoryne emersed cultivation do provide you with the information that tells you exactly what sort of soil mixture to use for most species, even being available for ones that aren't so commonly available in the aquarium trade if you search a bit more. However the issue is that I want to start growing Cryptocoryne and Lagenandra on a larger scale, where using substrates such as "beech tree soil" (soil found around beech trees where the soil has poor lime content) would simply be impractical due to it not exactly being something I can source easily in large quantities. Keep in mind this soil type is mainly used for growing Cryptocorynes found in blackwater areas. I wonder how I could recreate this soil using ingredients found in garden centres etc... so that I wouldn't have to be constantly going to some forest and digging up the soil? The main thing is it needs to be very  acidic (a PH of around 4), rich in humic compounds and obviously needs to be something I can reliably source year round. Nothing more than that. 

But this also makes me think that maybe the reason such a specific soil type is required is because these plants are literally found in what is basically a peat bog in the jungle, despite having it's differences it's a very similar environment to the peat bog in many ways, although it is still quite unique. Many growers report poor result when they have grown blackwater Cryptocorynes in peat. Is it really necessary to use Beech tree soil though? Maybe there is a probability that people that grew these Cryptocorynes in peat failed due to other reasons than the soil type? I definitely want to experiment more in a few months time when I build a greenhouse and have more space and plants to (potentially) kill.

As for the other, less demanding species I should be able to get away with grit + clay (possibly some lime sprinkled in for hardwater plants) or a mixture of grit + peat, and they should thrive in this sort of substrate mixture.  But I'd still like to hear what everyone has to say and what others use or are planning to use for their plants. I would specifically like to know if anyone here has grown more delicate, sensitive species in more easy to source  substrate mixtures and if you had great success with them.   Obviously I'd want the plants to be able to grow well and definitely flower. If it's nothing too obscure to get I'll definitely give it a shot if it sounds worth trying.

In the end I just desire simplicity and don't want to be using too many specific soil types and I don't want to mess about with soil mixtures that have 5 or more ingredients, as plant keeping to me is meant to be a simple and non technical hobby (despite obviously having a scientific aspect). One type of soil for blackwater plants, one for hardwater ones, as well as  a general purpose one for the ones that will thrive in almost anything.


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## Wookii (10 Jun 2021)

Aren’t all these plants typically grown commercially in rock wool in pots, sitting in trays of what amounts to a nutrient ‘soup’ that is pumped around the greenhouse.

If so, it would suggest they don’t require a specific type of soil necessarily, just sufficient nutrients to their submerged roots.


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## greenbliss (11 Jun 2021)

The plants I am talking about certainly aren't available commercially. Otherwise I'd just grow them in sand/clay or some other basic soil mixture.


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## bazz (11 Jun 2021)

Hi greenbliss,
It appears to me that you are probably already more of an authority on this subject than most and no doubt have already trawled the www for information, but one longshot is to maybe ask the same question on a Facebook group, if you haven't already, that I lurk on Facebook Groups where it seems that most are having a lot of success doing exactly this.
Cheers,
bazz
PS I'm not averse to paying for an odd small aquarium suitable crypt plantlet now and again.


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## greenbliss (11 Jun 2021)

bazz said:


> Hi greenbliss,
> It appears to me that you are probably already more of an authority on this subject than most and no doubt have already trawled the www for information, but one longshot is to maybe ask the same question on a Facebook group, if you haven't already, that I lurk on Facebook Groups where it seems that most are having a lot of success doing exactly this.
> Cheers,
> bazz
> PS I'm not averse to paying for an odd small aquarium suitable crypt plantlet now and again.


I’m not totally against the idea but after having seen the fishkeeping groups on facebook I haven’t been very keen on it. Some of the worst looking tanks I’ve ever seen were on fishkeeping facebook groups.


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## bazz (11 Jun 2021)

There aren't any fish tanks on there, it's an international crypt forum populated with collectors and the odd expert, predominantly growing rare crypts terrestrially. You can easily leave the group if you have no joy.


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## dw1305 (11 Jun 2021)

Hi all,


greenbliss said:


> The plants I am talking about certainly aren't available commercially.





greenbliss said:


> However the issue is that I want to start growing Cryptocoryne and Lagenandra on a larger scale, where using substrates such as "beech tree soil" (soil found around beech trees where the soil has poor lime content) would simply be impractical due to it not exactly being something I can source easily in large quantities. Keep in mind this soil type is mainly used for growing Cryptocorynes found in blackwater areas.


A coir based compost? You can buy 5 kg compressed bales of coir for ~£15 and that makes about 60 litres of compost.

Personally I would go down the leaf mold route. Probably just leaf mold and perlite (or bark), with a low rate base dressing of osmocote.  "Oak leaf" would be my preference and I definitely wouldn't sterilise it before use.

You might be able to get large amounts via your local council? If they shred their autumn leaves separately?  It would be a mix of tree species however.

cheers Darrel


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## greenbliss (11 Jun 2021)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> 
> A coir based compost? You can buy 5 kg compressed bales of coir for ~£15 and that makes about 60 litres of compost.
> ...


I definitely have considered coir but it isn’t something I am familiar with. Don’t see why it wouldn’t work though. As for leaf mould I definitely was wanting to get some going in autumn but it needs to be quite acidic, which means it might need to be sourced from areas where the soil is poor in lime but I’m not so convinced about that . I guess i’ll need to simply try things and learn through trial and error.


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## mort (11 Jun 2021)

If the mix needs to be acidic could you use composted bracken? I don't know but I'm guessing it's similar to leaf mould.


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## dw1305 (11 Jun 2021)

Hi all,


greenbliss said:


> but it needs to be quite acidic, which means it might need to be sourced from areas where the soil is poor in lime but I’m not so convinced about that


I think that is the advantage of Oak (_Quercus_ spp.) leaf mold, it will always be slightly acidic. It is all limestone here, but when I want small amounts of clay, or leaf mold, I go over to the <"greensand ridge to the east of us">.


mort said:


> If the mix needs to be acidic could you use composted bracken?


That should be ideal.

cheers Darrel


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## greenbliss (11 Jun 2021)

mort said:


> If the mix needs to be acidic could you use composted bracken? I don't know but I'm guessing it's similar to leaf mould.


I’ll definitely try and give it a go. Never made compost or leaf mould so it’ll be a nice change.




dw1305 said:


> I think that is the advantage of Oak (_Quercus_ spp.) leaf mold, it will always be slightly acidic. It is all limestone here, but when I want small amounts of clay, or leaf mold, I go over to the <"greensand ridge to the east of us">.


I think the soil where I live should be OK. My area has quite a few different soil types so I have alternative places to source leaves if need be.


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## greenbliss (11 Jun 2021)

One thing I am not so sure about is whether I could make bracken compost and leaf mould in any reasonable amount of time? Would I be able to have some that I can use for my plants by next year? I don’t live in the warmest part of the country but it rains a lot here.


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## jamila169 (11 Jun 2021)

traditional way is to stuff damp leaves into a sack/ bin bag with holes and leave it under a large shrub/tree, so it gets rained on, but is sheltered -I've never managed it partly because OH has a habit of forgetting I told him to leave it be and just taking anything that he considers rubbish to the dump  It takes 2 years the trad way, though there's some ! make leafmould in 6 months ! things on youtube that I'm deeply sceptical of. Deciduous leaves break down quicker according to the RHS  -have you though about giving ericaceous compost a whirl? It has a pH of between 4 and 5 and you can get peat free ones that are made from composted bracken and bark , or Moorland gold that is composted bark, bracken and reclaimed peat filtered from watercourses though they don't give a PH on their website, so you'd have to check with them.


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## greenbliss (11 Jun 2021)

I think what I'll end up doing is take a note of all of these suggestions and try the things that practically make the most sense to me and see what gives me the most desirable plant health. Thanks everyone for your replies and suggestions so far.


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## mort (11 Jun 2021)

I mentioned bracken after Darrel suggested coir because it's easily available off the shelf. I do have some bracken that I used as a insulated layer over some dahlias this winter and it hasn't noticeable degraded since it was harvested, so like Jamila mentions I don't think it would be a quick process.

If you have any pine trees near you then the leaf mould under them is another thing you could "forage" and you can sieve the needles out.


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## greenbliss (27 Aug 2021)

Ever since I switched to using a 50/50 mix of washed sand and peat for my Lagenandra they seem to be a lot healthier, however some are really stunted because I trimmed the roots (these aquatic aroids have an exceptional ability to withstand such damage). I feel that as the roots grow a bit more they might take off and  grow to their their full size which would probably be around 10cm tall, they aren't very big plants.


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## greenbliss (21 Mar 2022)

Recently found out about a dead easy method for finding appropriate leaf mould. If you walk around in a beech forest (with landowner permission of course), and just feel for the spongy parts with your feet, eventually you will find an area where  leaves have happened to have accumulated. Then you dig down past the layer of whole leaves into the layer that you want, which should look somewhat like soil but still have a fair few bits of almost fully decomposed leaves. Quite easy. I will also really soon try a little experiment and compare side by side the same species grown in various substrates and see how it does. I also really want to try leaf mould from a mixed forest (hardwood and non hardwood species) to see if simply getting mixed leaf mould from the council would work. I have seen a report by Cryptocoryne growers in Russia that this has been somewhat successful, but it is so poorly translated that I'm not even going to bother sending it here.

Now is this environmentally friendly? I mean I don't think grabbing a bucket or two of leaf litter from a forest that is just one species of tree (most likely not natural) is really impacting any major ecosystems. After all this is an extremely niche hobby. At least it is better than the alternative, which would mean using peat from our European peat bogs, which defeats the point of trying to grow plants which are endangered because of their habitat being lost. But that is just my opinion. 

As far as Bucephalandra grow, it seems that some nurseries are successful using rice husk charcoal and perlite. I wonder if I could get by with coco coir and perlite? Or maybe something like biochar and perlite?


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## mort (21 Mar 2022)

I think your plan sounds good. It's similar to serpadesigns terrarium mix which is 1 part coco fibre or potting soil,  2 parts sphagnum moss, 1 part orchard bark (fine bark), 1 part sand and 1 part charcoal. This is a broader substrate for most species that like a airy but moist substrate but might be worth playing with.

You'll have me looking for soil with my feet now, Darrels already got me eyeing up every mole hill I come across but I've so far resisted the temptation.  I doubt a little bucket or two of leaf mould would do any environmental damage but as a word of warning there can be quite alot of seeds in them. I've used it myself and was overrun with blackberry seedlings and other woodland species.


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## greenbliss (21 Mar 2022)

mort said:


> You'll have me looking for soil with my feet now, Darrels already got me eyeing up every mole hill I come across but I've so far resisted the temptation.  I doubt a little bucket or two of leaf mould would do any environmental damage but as a word of warning there can be quite alot of seeds in them. I've used it myself and was overrun with blackberry seedlings and other woodland species.


Heh, maybe you could make a peat swamp habitat tank? I'm currently in the process of soaking leaf mould for one I'll set up soon. You can have a look in journals for more info. It is absolutely full of seeds though, I can see so many beech seeds. Maybe they just float to the  top once they germinate?

A lot of the reason I want to grow these plants is because people are so snobby and gatekeep the keeping of such rare and special plants. It's mostly people on other forums and types of social media that just talk all about their  rare plants and how special they are because they have them, yet these people probably have never even kept a poppy or a geranium. Ffs. There is no passion for the subject or willingness to learn, just showing off the plants like toys. I'm no botanist and I don't really know how important these plants are to the  environment, but considering how some are quite threatened  in the wild I don't think it would be a bad thing if more people kept them in their aquariums, or in their greenhouses. These plants thrive in conditions almost identical if not identical to the ones Paros and some other blackwater peat swamp fish (which also happened to be threatened) are found in. Perfect match IMO.

I will have no problems trading any of the plants I end up growing with members of this forum assuming people actually will be willing to care for them. I've actually also been reading about tissue culture a little bit to try get familiar with the basics. But I'd probably want to build a lab if I were to be serious about it. 

Another reason I prefer this sort of plant growing is because there isn't any need  for over hyped products or anything expensive. Just literally soil from a forest and some rain or RO water and patience is all you need. No need for dozens of chemicals and additives. Of course  this shows that blackwater Cryptocoryne species aren't really that hard to grow. Other species that aren't from peat swamps are probably where the real challenge is.


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## Atragene (22 Mar 2022)

The joy of invitro plants is that you get quite a few to play with. One usually has some idea of the growing conditions so you can  Experiment with the parameters around a mid point.   JI3 potting soil can be brought in an acid form to mix with a variety of  organic materials. Beech leaf litter  I have made  was ph4.5 whilst oak leaf litter was ph6.9. I accept that there will always be some contamination with  natural products .  For experimentation I use honey jars  or Kilmer jars for the larger plants so I can have lots of variables. 
I realise with just the odd high value plant that this is not possible but on several occasions I have  noticed the plant is not flourishing and changed the soil or water parameters with  an immediate response  of new leaves. The finding out is the fun bit, when all goes well makes the effort worth while


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## dean (26 Mar 2022)

If you lived in a city then you could buy almond leaves which are easily obtained 
Would they work ?

Would putting leaves in a food processor to chop them up into tiny pieces speed up process of making a compost ?

Has anyone tried SerpaDesign compost mix ?

Would adding critters such as springtails be beneficial in that they will breakdown the rotten leaves and deposit fertilisers in the mix ? 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## greenbliss (26 Mar 2022)

Atragene said:


> The joy of invitro plants is that you get quite a few to play with. One usually has some idea of the growing conditions so you can  Experiment with the parameters around a mid point.   JI3 potting soil can be brought in an acid form to mix with a variety of  organic materials. Beech leaf litter  I have made  was ph4.5 whilst oak leaf litter was ph6.9. I accept that there will always be some contamination with  natural products .  For experimentation I use honey jars  or Kilmer jars for the larger plants so I can have lots of variables.
> I realise with just the odd high value plant that this is not possible but on several occasions I have  noticed the plant is not flourishing and changed the soil or water parameters with  an immediate response  of new leaves. The finding out is the fun bit, when all goes well makes the effort worth while


Thanks for the input. I'll note these ideas down to keep them in mind f or once I have enough spare plants or manage to order some TC's in.  I'm really keen to experiment but unfortunately patience is key when dealing with Crypts, meaning I probably won't have a surplus of blackwater species any time soon.


dean said:


> If you lived in a city then you could buy almond leaves which are easily obtained
> Would they work ?
> 
> Would putting leaves in a food processor to chop them up into tiny pieces speed up process of making a compost ?


I would not suggest doing this. I'm currently dry starting a tank with beech leafmould that has a few parts where the material is just a bit too fresh and it smells god awful. It smells like a farmyard slurry pit. Luckily when this happens it seems that the smell goes away after a few weeks or so and the plants don't really seem bothered. Good leaf mould is meant to just smell like soil supposedly, but to me it has a metallic  smell with hints of chlorine. I have had COVID though so maybe that is why.

Also you would probably end up making the most expensive leaf mould known to man considering how much it'd take to buy the almond leaves. ADA quality. Could sell it in aquascaping shops for £20 per 500ml. The best you can buy for your Crypts.

I too struggled with growing peat swamp Cryptocoryne species. I tried and tried and tried but no matter what I did, they would refuse to grow in aquasoil. Then I discovered Dean's magic leaf mould. My life was changed. The unique makeup of humic substances and the low PH meant my plants thrived. I was shocked. This was all because of Dean's magic leaf mould. Buy yours now for only £20 at your local aquarium shop!


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## greenbliss (24 Sep 2022)

Hi all, not posted here for a while

Autumn approaches... This means it will soon be time to make leaf mould. I have my wheelbarrow and my springbok rake ready... As well as a 1000l capacity compost bin.


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## dw1305 (24 Sep 2022)

Hi all,


greenbliss said:


> This means it will soon be time to make leaf mould.





greenbliss said:


> I too struggled with growing peat swamp Cryptocoryne species. I tried and tried and tried but no matter what I did, they would refuse to grow in aquasoil.


How did it go? Is Beech (_Fagus sylvatica_) the best substrate for Aroids long term?


greenbliss said:


> Could sell it in aquascaping shops for £20 per 500ml. The best you can buy for your Crypts.
> 
> _I too struggled with growing peat swamp Cryptocoryne species. I tried and tried and tried but no matter what I did, they would refuse to grow in aquasoil. Then I discovered Dean's magic leaf mould. My life was changed. The unique makeup of humic substances and the low PH meant my plants thrived. I was shocked. This was all because of Dean's magic leaf mould. Buy yours now for only £20 at your local aquarium shop!_


I'm seeing a <"whole range of products"> we <"could sell">, although I think  <"several companies have got there first">, but I <"suppose you"> have to go <"either go big, or go home">.

cheers Darrel


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## greenbliss (24 Sep 2022)

dw1305 said:


> How did it go? Is Beech (_Fagus sylvatica_) the best substrate for Aroids long term?


Hi Darrel, I've been using coco coir and sand or coco coir and perlite + miracle gro successfully for common species. I currently only have 2 blackwater species and they are doing ok in the 60x30cm  aquarium but I'll probably soon rip them out, pot them up and put them in a higher humidity environment with more heat and light. They have been growing in pure leaf mould and I have fertilised ocassionaly with a very dilute miracle gro solution, but even then when they weren't looking deficient in between being fertilised. However they have been really slow so need some TLC. I'm not going to do  the Parosphromenus aquarium until I maybe import some crypts from Borneo. Anyways, it seems like the breakdown of the leafmould provides plenty of nutrients for growth. I really want to try sending an email to some of the experts in the crypt world to ask them questions such as:

Why do Crypts grow best in leafmould? Is it because of fungus or some other organisms found in leaf mould? Is it because of the pH? If not, what else?
Do you know of any alternatives for the home grower that doesn't require scavenging from forests or making your own leaf mould?
If not, what sort of pointers can you give us in terms of what MIGHT work?
It's a really confusing situation. Some species NOT from peat swamps grow amazing in leaf mould. What causes this? I really want to just know WHY they thrive in leaf mould, so we can maybe try recreate this with more commonly available resources. Not everyone wants bags of rotting leaves laying around their garden etc... I was thinking that maybe if I imported crypts from Borneo, they might do well for me simply because they were bred in their natural range and might come with symbiotic organisms that are important for their growth?? But at this point maybe I'm just dreaming..


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## sparkyweasel (24 Sep 2022)

greenbliss said:


> a 1000l capacity compost bin.


 Ooh jealous!


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## greenbliss (24 Sep 2022)

sparkyweasel said:


> Ooh jealous!


I'm not sure if it's a good idea, it might just turn anaerobic in the centre. Probably going to need to turn it regularly.


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## Danlacey1988 (2 Oct 2022)

I've been thinking of using this stuff they use it in America and I've seen a few people use it to grow plants that way I'm thinking of experimenting with it and see how it works might be a option you will how ever have to add fertiliser to the water but could be a good solution


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