# Stumped and at a loss!!!



## Matty123 (23 Apr 2017)

Hi all,

Hoping somebody could help me please! 

After a long battle with every algae under the sun/tank lighting I am at a total why my tank is still suffering from black 'dirty' looking algae. I'm at my wits end as I've attempted to educate myself throughly regarding causes of algae and still get s*** on! I've 'beat' BBA GSA BGA but this bugger remains 


Fish fed once a day (sparingly) 
Good all round aquarium maintenance/cleaner 

Many thanks in advance 
Matt 













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## Soilwork (23 Apr 2017)

I had terrible Algae twice now.  Every algae under the sun and it was caused by the trace mix from aquarium plant food stunting my plants.  its too many heavy metals when targeting 0.2ppm fe 3 x a week.


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## Zeus. (24 Apr 2017)

What clean up crew do you have? 
I have 50 Amanos in my 500l tank who never stop cleaning

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## Matty123 (24 Apr 2017)

Thanks Zeus. Funny you should say that as I went out to buy some shrimp and snails yesterday but was advised not to as I have a clown loach and red tailed shark! I'd rather pin point the cause of this algae

Kind regards
Matt


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## Matty123 (24 Apr 2017)

Thanks Soilwork. I am leaning more towards my EI supplements of the cause of this. What do you use now? 

Kind regards 
Matt


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## Zeus. (24 Apr 2017)

From my reading around threads and listening to the excellent aquascapers podcasts by ShadowMac and J. Art Amanos shrimp do come highly recommended for keeping alot of algea probs at bay. Added them pretty quick to my tank after my DSM then flooding. The fungus that appeared on the DW didn't last long with the Amanos they just never seem to rest. They do a good pedicure too when cleaning tank too . Had to distract them with algea pellet when i was trimming my carpet. They formed a mass around the pellet great fun to watch them rush out when you drop a pellet in.
Clown loaches great fish but they do eat snails and some shrimp also i think so good advise. Trouble with clown loach too is as they get bigger they then to dig up the AS too!

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## Soilwork (24 Apr 2017)

I just use a soil substrate.  I don't dose micros at all.  They are really not required in large amounts.  If your GH is low and you have low dissolved organic substances that can bind heavy metals then you are at risk.



 

Sorry it's sideways but 7ml dose of profito did this to my rotala wallichii and it's yet to recover.


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## Matty123 (24 Apr 2017)

Cheers for your help on this. My substrate is Eco complete. I've been informed that it could be due to an iron deficiency! 


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## Matty123 (24 Apr 2017)

It's just the one clown I've got an I'm sure I could rehome it!


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## zozo (24 Apr 2017)

Algae can be and in many cases is light intensity related.. And often adviced is the 3 day blackout  This you can try to maybe come a little closer to a possible solution.

Than first give your tank a good rub and a clean, cut all severely algae infested leaves away and do a water change and a filter clean. Cover the tank, so no light can penetrate.. Leave it like that for 3 days, no lights, no peaking, no ferts, no food, no worries. Your fish and plants can easily take it.

If you see a significant difference after 3 days uncovering the tank again. Than you can be pretty sure that light intencity or periode is a part of the solution to have less algae..  Green algae will be severely damaged by this blackout and suffer a setback, black algae can be a bit more resilient, likely depending on which one you have. It seems some black algae are less light sensitive than others.

Anyway a blackout can always be worth a try.. In my case it worked a treat and lowering light intensity after that kept it relatively away.


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## Soilwork (24 Apr 2017)

Wow.  Normally it's co2 and flow distribution.  The eco complete could be saturated with heavy metals.  Maybe do a detox for a couple of weeks to see if things improve.  You can still dose macros.  Many won't agree with this but it's only because they haven't seen it or it hasn't happened to them but it's quite well documented now.


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## Matty123 (24 Apr 2017)

Thanks zozo much appreciated! I am erring to try my first blackout and thinking it's a combination of high light intensity and iron deficiency. Will upload any success story! 


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## dw1305 (24 Apr 2017)

Hi all,





Matty123 said:


> I've been informed that it could be due to an iron deficiency!


I think it could be iron (Fe) deficiency. 

If you look at the second leaf down of the _Hydrocotyle_ in this picture:



 

You can see <"interveinal chlorosis">, which is often a symptom of a deficiency of magnesium (Mg), iron or Manganese (Mn). It can also be caused by Boron (B) toxicity. 

Magnesium is <"mobile within the plant">, but iron and manganese aren't. Assuming it is iron deficiency, only the new leaves, grown after the iron addition, will be greener and more healthy.

cheers Darrel


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## Matty123 (24 Apr 2017)

Cheers for that Darrel much appreciated 


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## Soilwork (25 Apr 2017)

This paper was very interesting. 

The micronutrient levels displayed in the table are greater than what would be typically found in, say for example 1 dose of CMS+B targeting 0.2ppm iron. But they are also described as the micro nutrient levels that have (at the time?) proved the most successful.

They are described in the article as 'full strength' concentrations.  Two of the test subjects N.flexilis and C.Demersum did not fare well and it was suspected that the 'relatively high' levels of micro nutrients was the cause (although further testing would be required) 

After about 3 weeks using CSM+B (example) targeting 0.2ppm fe 3 times a week for classic EI you would be very close to these levels for Mn (example)

If your replacement water is high in micro nutrients or you use an already trace rich substrate then you could exceed these levels quite easily.

Using manganese as an example.  0.2ppm fe x 3 from CSM+B EI dosing with 50% water changes weekly would peak at 0.23ppm after about 25 days. Mn levels in the experiment were 0.27ppm and was speculated to have caused less than ideal growth in N.flexilis and C.Demersum.

Nutrient accumulation was calculated by rotala butterfly.com without nutrient uptake taken in to account however, this does not include any other possible sources of micro nutrients that may enter the tank.  Taking in to consideration that the trace mix is a powder with a teaspoon of unknown quantity of traces and that the aquarium plant food mix is even more potent in some of the metals than CSM+B I would tread very carefully when using them in our aquariums.  Especially if you have soft water and/or already use a trace rich substrate.

Those two plants did not do well either because the 'full strength' of trace elements did not meet their requirements or they exceeded their requirements and caused toxicity.


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## Matty123 (25 Apr 2017)

Good morning and thanks for the reply  

Gulp! I started out quite confidently this morning on the whim that I 'just' need to continue my EI dosing going on from reading articles on this forum and others including The Barr report. So are you saying, and apologies if I sound thick, but are you saying that as my substrate has a good holding capacity (Eco complete) my tank may already be rich in these heavy metals and I need not add anymore until, say for 2 weeks, as previously suggested by a forum member as a form of detox? I do think that it's more of an 'excess' by the way of algae if that makes sense but thinking that earlier has just been thwarted by the Barr report! And in reference to Tom Barr who doesn't massively favour test kits but I have tested my phosphates and they are between 5-10ppm, this is what I get just after a 50% water change which would lead me to think that the high nutrients, phosphates in this instance, aren't especially 'free flowing' in the water but are 'trapped' in my substrate and leaching out and causing the high readings? I'm aware that test kits can me way off in accuracy but 5-10ppm would suggest to me that something is holding onto the nutrient content? I would expect a reading of 3ppm of phosphates with EI dosing but not the readings I'm getting. I also appreciate that iron is rapidly used up as soon as it's dosed and doesn't 'really' show up in my test kit of being of abundance within my tank like the phosphates are. I've also read, and not sure it's accurate going on from Tom Barr's findings that phosphates can cause black/brown algae deposits on plants caused by high phosphates? Please see the image attached to 'suggest this' 

Many thanks again with your help on this.

Kind regards 
Matt








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## Soilwork (25 Apr 2017)

I used some stronger glue this time and the attachment stuck.  Here's the link.

http://mobile.tube.aslo.net/lo/toc/vol_11/issue_4/0529.pdf


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## Matty123 (25 Apr 2017)

Ha ha! I'll set aside some time later in an attempt to get my grey matter around the attachment. 

Kind regards and thanks 
Matt 


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## Soilwork (25 Apr 2017)

Matty123 said:


> Good morning and thanks for the reply
> 
> Gulp! I started out quite confidently this morning on the whim that I 'just' need to continue my EI dosing going on from reading articles on this forum and others including The Barr report. So are you saying, and apologies if I sound thick, but are you saying that as my substrate has a good holding capacity (Eco complete) my tank may already be rich in these heavy metals and I need not add anymore until, say for 2 weeks, as previously suggested by a forum member as a form of detox? I do think that it's more of an 'excess' by the way of algae if that makes sense but thinking that earlier has just been thwarted by the Barr report! And in reference to Tom Barr who doesn't massively favour test kits but I have tested my phosphates and they are between 5-10ppm, this is what I get just after a 50% water change which would lead me to think that the high nutrients, phosphates in this instance, aren't especially 'free flowing' in the water but are 'trapped' in my substrate and leaching out and causing the high readings? I'm aware that test kits can me way off in accuracy but 5-10ppm would suggest to me that something is holding onto the nutrient content? I would expect a reading of 3ppm of phosphates with EI dosing but not the readings I'm getting. I also appreciate that iron is rapidly used up as soon as it's dosed and doesn't 'really' show up in my test kit of being of abundance within my tank like the phosphates are. I've also read, and not sure it's accurate going on from Tom Barr's findings that phosphates can cause black/brown algae deposits on plants caused by high phosphates? Please see the image attached to 'suggest this'
> 
> ...



This happened to me also.  Those barreport articles do have a habit of making you doubt yourself.

Bottom line is EI is supposed to provide non limiting nutrients.  Assuming you are using magnesium (if you tap is low) how can you possible have a deficiency. Unless you tap is hard and you have precipitation or solubility issues it's very doubtful this would happen.  Tom always says how he has tried it in all different types of water and never has issues. 

This is why the big focus on co2.  But I think it's become that monotonous by now that flow and distribution are probably the only things we know how to get right. 

Toxicities can be manifested in ways that would make one suspect a deficiency elsewhere. 

I don't know much about the eco complete and how strong it's CEC is or even which elements it is most likely to sequester. (Question for Darrel perhaps)

It didn't work for me.  So i put soil under it.  Algae is minimal and the tank is slowly recovering.  Some plants had to be discarded but their replacements are fine.


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## Matty123 (25 Apr 2017)

Cheers. I use RO water remineralised with Equilibrium. I'm regretting using RO now and thinking of going back to tap water as my water in Birmingham is some of the best in the country, if not the best! I flew straight into converting to RO without really checking up on it, oh well, hopefully I can go back to good old Severn Trent. Just finished reading some articles regarding CEC and with Eco complete it's meant to be good. I'm guessing it's absorbed a good amount of nutrients. I'm thinking if I continue my EI dosing and do 2 50% water changes for week opposed to just the 1 per week hopefully things will improve. I thought about stopping EI dosing for a while but I think that'll  make things worse with algae and such. I've already lowered my lighting intensity (4 days ago) which then makes me think should I be adding the normal amount of EI or less?! As you can see I'm in a bit of pickle with this! Hopefully with more water changes and lowered light I ought to see an improvement 

Thanks 
Matt 


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## Soilwork (26 Apr 2017)

You can continue macros but it takes a bit of a leap of faith to discontinue micros.  It's easier for me because I'm using soil. 

I would at least significantly reduce the micros.


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## Matty123 (26 Apr 2017)

Good morning Soilwork,

Thanks for recommending this as I have resisted dosing my micros this morning.  I was half heartily going to do this but after your help and advise and reading the reports you sent me and going on from Darralls input I'm willing to give it a go as everything else seems adequate within my tank, good flow, co2, macros, good husbandry, sensible levels of light. I will keep a close eye on things for any changes whether they be positive or negative and will take it from there. I can't figure out what else it could be, so here goes! 

Kind regards 
Matt


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## Soilwork (26 Apr 2017)

No problem.

It would seem your water is very soft  Like mine so it would make sense that you would see issues more than others.

Bare in mind you may still have micro rich substrate so give it a good few weeks.  I would also say to give macros a rest for a few days.  Just see how you get on.  I'm still having issues and that's all I've done and I'm seeing improvements. 

Look here at the last few posts.

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f24/calibans-aquaopti-85l-352135.html

When you actually look.  There are many threads on the subject. 

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...ameters/853001-csm-b-toxicity-experiment.html

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/11-fertilizers-water-parameters/503585-toxicity-csm-b.html

http://www.barrreport.com/forum/bar...doesn-t-address-na-and-cl-requirements/page10

http://www.barrreport.com/forum/bar...-plant-enzyme-inhibition-persistent-bba/page2

There's more...the CSM+B toxicity experiment will eventually fire you off in to more examples. 

I hope things improve. I'm sure they will.  Be sure to lower macros a tad too and be patient.  Keep a lookout for healthy new growth.  Some plants will respond.  Others may need not.

Good luck

Craig


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## Matty123 (26 Apr 2017)

Cheers Craig. I've nearly read the first link and it's an eye opener. Hopefully I won't knee jerk to do anything premature like changing my substrate as I tend to do things like that! Thinking already the EI method might be too 'harsh/heavy' with this type of substrate. Maybe a 'softer' fertiliser regime might work better? I do hope things improve. I'll take your advise and ease off the micros for s few weeks and give my macros a few days and do a couple of water changes over the next few days. I will continue to read the rest of the links and hopefully a successful conclusion with ensue. Thanks again it's much appreciated to have support like this! 

Kind regards 
Matt


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## Soilwork (26 Apr 2017)

Matty123 said:


> Cheers Craig. I've nearly read the first link and it's an eye opener. Hopefully I won't knee jerk to do anything premature like changing my substrate as I tend to do things like that! Thinking already the EI method might be too 'harsh/heavy' with this type of substrate. Maybe a 'softer' fertiliser regime might work better? I do hope things improve. I'll take your advise and ease off the micros for s few weeks and give my macros a few days and do a couple of water changes over the next few days. I will continue to read the rest of the links and hopefully a successful conclusion with ensue. Thanks again it's much appreciated to have support like this!
> 
> Kind regards
> Matt



Sounds like a good plan.  Let us know how you get on.


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