# Can liquid carbon be mixed with EI solutions?



## Spikey-Mike (30 Nov 2012)

Hi, All

I was re-reading the glutaraldehyde thread http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=22296 as I am considering going down the DIY mixing route to liquid carbon as well. However, I was also wondering whether 'liquid carbon' (either self mixed or premixed) could be mixed with the EI solution that I make up once a month and then dose automatically each day with a peristaltic pump.

In fact in the glut thread there is the question:


> by Aqua sobriquet » Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:53 am
> Could it be mixed in with an all-in-one fert is something that may be of interest to folks.



Which didn't get an answer, so I thought I'd ask again in a new thread... Is there likely to be a reaction if these two solutions are mixed? I guess there would likely be some precipitate if anything did happen, but not necessarily. It would be great to be able to dose everything I need in one solution, but the alternative would be to make a 2nd dosing pump setup.

A related question would be is there any 'best time' to dose the liquid carbon? The EI solution goes in at 8.00 in the morning.

Thanks for any insights,

Regards, Mike.


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside (30 Nov 2012)

Hey mike,
I am no scientist, in fact far from it in the role of a bench joiner, but glut should be dosed as close to lights on time as possible (allowing for circulation round tank before lights), as it only has a 'life' of 12 hours I believe.

As for mixing with nutrients, I don't think it would remain 'good' mixed with nutrients for any sort of timescale, especially a month, but as I say, I'm not one of the brains on here. 

Clive or Darrel should be able to give well educated suggestions though.

Cheers,


----------



## Spikey-Mike (30 Nov 2012)

Thanks for that.... I'll start looking for another pump on ebay then 

It occoured to me after I'd posted the question that a 'reaction' could end up sending stuff at high speed towards the ceiling, which would definately be bad 

Interesting about the 12 hour life as well - I didn't know that and I'm going to change the time I put the glut in and see if it improves things.

Thanks again, Mike.


----------



## JohnC (2 Jan 2013)

I'm also looking for an answer to the same good/bad mixing question of an all in one and liquid carbon.

After reading the first thread I can't see an issue with using RO or Deionised water and the glut it's just reactions between the glut and the cleating agents or the specific compounds we are looking at..... But with my limited understanding glut works in the water by attacking algae and complex molecules breaking itself and other things down and releasing carbon dioxide as a bi product. 

The question is if it reacts with the relatively simple inoganic compounds in our fert mix.

Anyone?


----------



## GHNelson (2 Jan 2013)

Hi
Clive answered a similar question a while back for me....but this was to combat fungus in the DIY fertilzer mix.
Stated it should be okay to add Liquid Carbon to the mix say 5ml to a litre.
Cheers
hoggie


----------



## JohnC (2 Jan 2013)

hogan53 said:


> Hi
> Clive answered a similar question a while back for me....but this was to combat fungus in the DIY fertilzer mix.
> Stated it should be okay to add Liquid Carbon to the mix say 5ml to a litre.
> Cheers
> hoggie


 
not going to cut it for regular carbon dosing thou.....

but still the implication is that if it is going to combat fungus long term then the compound is not reacting with the ferts and breaking down, ergo should be fine in larger amounts......

clive or anyone want to confirm this?

thanks,
John


----------



## ceg4048 (3 Jan 2013)

Long term, it's not really clear if the gluteraldehyde will remain intact sufficiently to have any CO2 benefits once mixed with the water solution. As mentioned, because it's a biocide, its toxicity to mold and fungus is useful for micro mix storage.

It's easy enough to test though. Just combine the two as you propose and dose as usual. If you see NPK related algae, you'd know that something happened to NPK. If you see CO2 related algae you'd have an indication that the gluteraldehyde broke down.

Cheers,


----------



## JohnC (3 Jan 2013)

do we know what the glut reacts with in the tank water column to break it down in such a short time? 

It can't be the water molecules as people make solutions from the concentrate to save pennies on the branded stuff.


----------



## ceg4048 (3 Jan 2013)

Gluteraldehyde is a highly reactive compound and it's effectiveness as a biocide means that it reacts with proteins and enzymes to disrupt their chemical structure. But the chemical behavior of glut is not really well understood. Also, there are other compounds which react with and which immobilize glut. In a tank there are lots of protein structures so this might be one reason it has a short half life. The part of the protein that glut is attracted to is the Amine functional group.

Amine is a derivative of ammonia. In the upper half of this image you can see Ammonia (NH3). If you pull one of the Hydrogen atoms away and replace it with some other element or compound then it becomes an Amine. Famous Amine structures are Amino Acids, which are the building blocks of proteins and enzymes.





There are other chemicals that react with glut depending on the pH and concentration. Dow Chemicals recommends that for glut spills, again, depending on concentration, the chemical can be neutralize with Sodium Bisulfite or Sodium Hydroxide. This is just a short list of way that can shorten the half life of this compound. There are many other chemical (organic and inorganic) paths. In a micro mix, normally the trace metals don't react with the glut, distilled or tap water is used (not tank water) and any organic baddies that develop are quickly rubbed out. So the chemical should have longevity in the bottle. Probably the same in an NPK mix, but again I don't really know because of the many ways that glut behaves in an aqueous solution.

Cheers,


----------



## JohnC (3 Jan 2013)

ceg4048 said:


> Gluteraldehyde is a highly reactive compound and it's effectiveness as a biocide means that it reacts with proteins and enzymes to disrupt their chemical structure. But the chemical behavior of glut is not really well understood. Also, there are other compounds which react with and which immobilize glut. In a tank there are lots of protein structures so this might be one reason it has a short half life. The part of the protein that glut is attracted to is the Amine functional group.
> 
> Amine is a derivative of ammonia. In the upper half of this image you can see Ammonia (NH3). If you pull one of the Hydrogen atoms away and replace it with some other element or compound then it becomes an Amine. Famous Amine structures are Amino Acids, which are the building blocks of proteins and enzymes.
> 
> ...


 

Always a pleasure getting answers off you. 

So i'm left with a feeling that for the trace mix people are thinking it will be fine with higher levels of Glut but the NPK mix is still up in the air especially when we add higher concentrations.

Ive read elsewhere people reporting their NPK solutions changed colour when the Glut was added (reddish tint) but they didnt report any negative dosing effects. But obviously something was happening.

As initially stated without testing we can't be sure.

On a side note i'm not sure if it's been mentioned enough in this thread how utterly horrible and harmful Glutaraldehyde is so here is a video i just found..... (it's not that interesting really).



Randomly while reading up I've just come across these articles.

http://www.safe.nite.go.jp/english/risk/pdf/03_summary/066sum.pdf

That one is a risk assessment in japan on glut with details of effects in water...

"(In air)
Reaction with OH radical:
Reaction rate constant is 8.40*10
-121
cm
3
/molecule-sec. (25degC, measured value)
The half-life is 8-20 hours, given OH radical concentration of 5*10
5
– 1*10
6
molecule/cm
3
.
Reaction with ozone:
The data is not available.
Reaction with nitrate radical:
The data is not available.
(In water)
Glutaraldehyde is expected to be hydrolyzed easily in basic water, and also has the possibility to
be oxidized by dissolved oxygen to produce glutaric acid.
Environmental fate
If released into water, glutaraldehyde is expected to be removed by biodegradation mainly under
aerobic conditions. Under anaerobic conditions, only primary degradation may occur."

The hazard assessment has a nice bit too showing concentrations needed for acute harm to algae, fish etc...

John Kiernan's web page - Formaldehyde and glutaraldehyde
A wider paper discussing the glut's reactions with aimino protien groups.

The Dow site seems to indicate nitrates and glut don't mix well and mention a colour change in an small note talking about corrosion inhibitors.

Dow Perf Materials & Basic Chem Answer Center



> "What can you tell me about the compatibility of glutaraldehyde-based products with common corrosion inhibitors?
> Typical anticorrosion agents such as azides, nitrates and nitrites can interact with glutaraldehyde (GA) and may result in effects such as color formation which could be intense at times. Chelants, such as Dow's VERSENETM products, are compatible with GA and are typically effective as corrosion inhibitors.
> In addition, GA is known to be incompatible with:
> - ammonia
> ...


 


So current thinking is still two dosing pumps needed 

I'll keep reading or just make the experimental tank myself. Unfortunately i've only got the low intensity one to try it on, that is currently running a CO2 set up as an experiment.

I'm going to play with some plants and my head is hurting from all this high level chemistry reading.

Thanks again,
John


----------



## DrRob (27 Jun 2013)

Given this thread going quiet I'm guessing that it was never tried, unless anyone can give me some experience to go on. Was thinking of giving it a go if nobody else has yet, means I can spread my dosing pumps across more tanks if I can all in one the solutions.


----------



## Yo-han (27 Jun 2013)

HS Aqua has Floracarbo, which is traces mixed with glut. Easy life also said you can mix easy carbo and profito. Not sure about the NPK and glut...


----------



## Spikey-Mike (27 Jun 2013)

Interesting to notice an old thread awaken...

I certainly didn't bother trying it - I got another dosing pump. I dose ferts at 08:00 and glut solution 15 minutes before lights on. I'm much more comfortable with electronics than chemistry 
Rgs, Mike.


----------



## DrRob (27 Jun 2013)

Lol, it's not that old. I may give this a try just out of curiosity. After all, I have 3 tanks that would benefit and 2 pumps.


----------

