# CPD with ulcer



## KirstyF (24 May 2022)

Ive just been sent a pic by my Ma (who is babysitting fishes) of one of my CPD’s that appears to have an ulcer.

Not a good pic, though you might be able to see if you zoom in. (Ma popped it into a jug to take the photo, bless her, which I’m sure cheered it up!!)  

Could be result of an injury, as they can be a little feisty with each other, and the fish has been hiding and not eating. The fact that she was able to catch it shows that it’s not a happy fish! 

We could do an Esha2000 treatment to assist with any bacterial infection and promote healing? although I would have to treat the whole tank (hospital tank not ready yet). Other than that, any ideas on other likely causes or treatments?

My first thought is always water quality but I do 50-60% water changes weekly. Pre-filters cleaned weekly. Main filters are cleaned less often but one filter was cleaned weekend before last and second filter was cleaned weekend just gone. Neither were massively dirty. TDS was within normal expected parameters at the weekend. (Hard water and EI so it’s always high but it’s normal high) 

Looks like it’s just a single fish at the minute but I’m not home til Friday this week so no personal observations.

Pic:


----------



## xZaiox (24 May 2022)

Ulcers can generally vary quite widely in severity as well as causes. They can arise from nipping, injurys (such as scrapes), parasites, or from certain bacterial infections, yes. Sometimes the infections are mild, sometimes they can take down fish quickly, and sometimes they can be more chronic (such as via mycobacterium/fish tb). Mild ulcers can sometimes be cured by just doing very large water changes daily, or using aquarium salt, but due to how large that ulcer is in proportion to the size of the fish, I would probably want to treat that with something.


KirstyF said:


> the fish has been hiding and not eating


If I'm honest, this is not often a good sign, and these symptoms in combination with the size of the ulcer, I would probably reach for an antibiotic such as Seachem's Kanaplex (kanamycin), or API's Fin & Body Cure (Doxycycline). If it is not possible to get an antibiotic then eSHA's 2000 could be worth a go. I would always advise dosing meds outside of the main tank if treating individual fish (due to the impacts on the biological balance of the tank), but it'll likely not do much harm to use eSHA's 2000 in the main tank, it primarily affects gram positive bacteria. I guess it depends on whether or not you consider the risks vs benefits worth it.

Hope some of this helps.


----------



## KirstyF (24 May 2022)

xZaiox said:


> Ulcers can generally vary quite widely in severity as well as causes. They can arise from nipping, injurys (such as scrapes), parasites, or from certain bacterial infections, yes. Sometimes the infections are mild, sometimes they can take down fish quickly, and sometimes they can be more chronic (such as via mycobacterium/fish tb). Mild ulcers can sometimes be cured by just doing very large water changes daily, or using aquarium salt, but due to how large that ulcer is in proportion to the size of the fish, I would probably want to treat that with something.
> 
> If I'm honest, this is not often a good sign, and these symptoms in combination with the size of the ulcer, I would probably reach for an antibiotic such as Seachem's Kanaplex (kanamycin), or API's Fin & Body Cure (Doxycycline). If it is not possible to get an antibiotic then eSHA's 2000 could be worth a go. I would always advise dosing meds outside of the main tank if treating individual fish (due to the impacts on the biological balance of the tank), but it'll likely not do much harm to use eSHA's 2000 in the main tank, it primarily affects gram positive bacteria. I guess it depends on whether or not you consider the risks vs benefits worth it.
> 
> Hope some of this helps.



Thank you and yes it does. I’m not keen on antibiotics in a main tank for sure so the eSHA 2000 is probably where I would go! 

I guess if there is a parasitical/infectious cause, that the treatment proves to be effective for, then having treated the other fish would be no bad thing. 

With fish it’s always the diagnosis that’s the tricky thing eh! 

The only other treatment I have immediately available is eSHA Exit, which can be used in combo with 2000, but seems less appropriate for the symptoms!! 

Hospital tank will be ready soon so if it makes it that far I can do something a little more focussed.

🙁


----------



## xZaiox (24 May 2022)

KirstyF said:


> With fish it’s always the diagnosis that’s the tricky thing eh!


Oh for sure, sometimes different illnesses can look similar, and one illness could have multiple different causes, so it easily feels like a guessing game. 
Best of luck with treatment, I hope your danio pulls through. 🤞


----------



## KirstyF (24 May 2022)

Thanks @xZaiox 😊


----------



## KirstyF (26 May 2022)

Sad to say, the little guy didn’t make it past yesterday. 🙁

Ma’s been keeping a close eye but I’ll do some lengthy personal observations when I’m home tomorrow to see if any others appear to be in trouble. 

Fingers crossed just a one off result of injury but we’ll see!


----------



## xZaiox (26 May 2022)

Really sorry to hear that @KirstyF  😥


KirstyF said:


> the fish has been hiding and not eating.


My experience with bacterial infections is that the fish will generally keep eating, so if it reaches the point where they are no longer eating and simultaneously have an infection, I tend to think antibiotics may be warranted. When I've seen bacterial infections take down fish, I often find the fish will keep eating until it can only hold on for a little bit longer. I wonder if those signs perhaps indicate a systemic infection, although that's purely speculation on my part.

Do let us know how your other fish appear to be - I wouldn't generally consider ulcers contagious (although as I mentioned above there can be a few exceptions i.e fish tb / parasites), I wouldn't worry about an ulcer appearing in one single fish.


----------



## KirstyF (27 May 2022)

Well, I’ve done some observations today and can’t see any other fish with blemishes, spots, bumps, red gills etc etc No clamped fins, all behaving normally and all eating…..except one!

I have a gold cloud mountain minnow that is mostly sticking to one spot in the tank and not showing much interest in food which is never a good sign. It is also maybe a little pale though again no obvious physical issues or blemishes and not clamping fins etc.

I’ve decided to dose the tank with eSHA 2000 as a precautionary measure though unclear as to whether this will help, and will keep a close eye.

I’ve also tested for ammonia, which was all clear, and re-tested ph, TDS and checked temps; all fell within expected parameters. Did a 50% water change before the treatment and removed the purigen from the filters just in case that might take any of the treatment out. 

Not sure there is anything else I can/should do at this juncture. Nothing very obvious to go on!!


----------



## xZaiox (27 May 2022)

KirstyF said:


> I have a gold cloud mountain minnow that is mostly sticking to one spot in the tank and not showing much interest in food which is never a good sign. It is also maybe a little pale though again no obvious physical issues or blemishes and not clamping fins etc.



Have you noticed any white or clear poops on this or any other fish? Does its stomach look caved in or normal?


----------



## KirstyF (27 May 2022)

This is an image of the fish so no I wouldn’t say it’s stomach looks abnormal.




I have fairly good flow in the tank and the fish are usually quite active so I would have to say I’ve never seen any kind of poop of any colour on any of my fish. Not sure if that’s because they have great digestion or because anything that comes out of them gets swept away immediately.

As I have a number of fish that prefer meatier diets, I feed frozen every day, usually cyclops or daphnia for little mouths and I also do a dry feed daily, usually tetra micro granule or a mix that I make up myself that has some tropical granule, some veggie granule, bug bites and flake all mixed together. 

Small feeds, all gone within a couple of minutes. 

Internal parasites are a possibility I guess?  If so, any suggestions for good treatments for that?


----------



## xZaiox (28 May 2022)

KirstyF said:


> Not sure if that’s because they have great digestion or because anything that comes out of them gets swept away immediately.


Try looking specifically for the poop every now and then as it comes out of the fish, it can be quite useful as an indicator for internal parasites. I find my fish tend to poop shortly after eating 


KirstyF said:


> As I have a number of fish that prefer meatier diets, I feed frozen every day, usually cyclops or daphnia for little mouths and I also do a dry feed daily, usually tetra micro granule or a mix that I make up myself that has some tropical granule, some veggie granule, bug bites and flake all mixed together.


Sounds like you're providing good nutrition 


KirstyF said:


> Internal parasites are a possibility I guess?  If so, any suggestions for good treatments for that?


I wouldn't really advise treating for internal parasites (or any illness) unless the signs are quite clear, you can often end up doing more harm than good by pre-emptively treating fish. I generally suspect internal parasites when I see white/clear poop accompanied by behavioural symptoms such as a lack of appetite and hiding, or members of a shoaling species such as tetras casting out a fish with white poop. In these cases I will usually treat with Metronidazole first (this targets Hexamita). If this doesn't work I would look to either Fenbendazole or Levamisole (for Capillaria). Note that with internal parasites, the medications are best delivered by feeding the medication to the fish through the food.

I think hiding and a lack of appetite as the only symptoms is just too vague to treat for though. It's definitely something to observe and see if anything else can be noticed about the fish.


----------



## KirstyF (28 May 2022)

Well the fragile gold cloud seems a bit more active today and it was picking at some food too so that’s good. Still staying away from the rest of the gang and not back to business as usual for sure, but not getting worse at least. I’ve noticed some egg scattering and a fair bit of chasing going on today. Maybe it’s been bullied and stressed  perhaps, though you’d think in a tank this size, it wouldn’t be an issue. 

I do tend to keep an eye out for poops, just because they are good indicators, but have literally never seen any. In previous tanks I’ve always seen occasional poops but I’ve fed frozen maybe a couple of times a week at most. With this tank, feeding frozen every day, I wondered whether this just keeps things ‘regular’ and the poops simply don’t hang!! I will continue to look out though, particularly for white or clear.

Might have pulled the switch on the eSHA 2000 a bit too quickly perhaps but I understand that it’s is fairly gentle on the tank and the fish, so should be no harm done. Appreciate for the tips on the other meds though, good to know for future reference. 

I’ve been fortunate with previous tanks to have very little in the way of illnesses or losses, so it’s real helpful. 

Thanks again! I’ll keep on eye on things and fingers crossed the gold cloud will make a recovery. 😊


----------



## KirstyF (5 Jun 2022)

Pleased to say that, whatever was going on with the GCMM, all seems well. 

Eating, active, improved colour and back socialising. All the other fish appear hale and hearty too. 😊

Whether the treatment was of any benefit, I’m not sure, but certainly no negative impact. 

All a bit of a mystery tbf! 🤔


----------



## KirstyF (15 Jun 2022)

Not good news @xZaiox (and anyone else with any ideas) I’ve had another poorly CPD. 

If you Zoom in on the pic below, you can see some small pale patches near the base of the tail and a more noticeable white patch that looks like fungus just where the tail connects with the tail fin. 



This is an image of the, now deceased, fish where you can see the ‘fungus’ more clearly and note, the tail fin is virtually gone. 




These images were taken just 24hrs apart.

Bearing in mind, I’ve already treated with eSHA 2000 for bacterial infection, fungal infections less than 3 weeks ago, should I look at treating the tank again!!? 

Again, there are currently no other fish showing signs of issues but this has appeared and taken the affected fish down very very quickly. 🙁


----------



## MirandaB (15 Jun 2022)

Looks like Saprolegnia which will take down a weak/ill fish extremely quickly once it gets hold.


----------



## xZaiox (15 Jun 2022)

Is the white growth 'fuzzy'? I've never had fungal infections in my fish before so I'm unfortunately not very educated on them, from my understanding they tend to be rarer in fish (a lot of bacterial or sometimes even protozoan infections are misdiagnosed as fungal). They often display 'fuzzy' growth though, as opposed to smooth/flat patches, and are more common in tanks with lots of dissolved organics.

A difficult thing with smaller fish is that because the fish is so small, it can be even more difficult to see what's going on.


MirandaB said:


> Looks like Saprolegnia which will take down a weak/ill fish extremely quickly once it gets hold.


@MirandaB , have you had any experiences and/or any knowledge of how to effectively treat such infections? I'm sure the OP would love to know, and as would I in case I ever come across this in my own fish.


----------



## MirandaB (16 Jun 2022)

I've only had to deal with Saprolegnia once before,that was in some Medaka I moved outside a bit too early and we had a cold snap.
Out of the 5 fish with it I managed to save all but the worst affected one by putting them in a tank of Methylene Blue solution but you can't use it your main tank as it'll kill off the filter bacteria.
There's not much you can do in the main tank as Sap is naturally resident to some degree in virtually all tanks and @KirstyF is doing all the right things regarding weekly water changes etc anyway.
I'd say there was an underlying issue already with that fish  though and the Sap finished it off sadly.


----------



## KirstyF (16 Jun 2022)

Thanks for the responses @xZaiox @MirandaB. 

Yes, the one white patch was fuzzy, and the other 3 tiny pale patches were flat and just looked like faded scales 

This is the kind of general malaise that would make me think water quality issue or stress issue. ie something that would not normally be a problem but comes up due to the fish having a weakened immune system or stress caused by something in-tank.

I just don’t have any answers for what that could be. 

I’ve not missed a single 50% weekly WC since I’ve had the tank. I do a partial surface hoover each time. (Never the whole tank at once as it would take me all day) Cleaning routines for other items like filters, gyres, spray bars, pipes are all solid. My pre filter sponges (and main filter media when I do them) only ever get cleaned with tank water as it empties, rather than tap, and I only do one main filter clean at a time (again media is only rinsed with tank water) to protect the bacterial colony. 

No notable TDS fluctuations 

New water is treated with Prime.

Temp for these guys is slap bang in the middle of their range.

PH is fine for them.

GH is at the top of their range but I know folks who have kept and bred CPD’s in harder water. 

Food quality is good.

Fish in tank are compatible, no super bully’s though the CPD’s can be a bit scrappy amongst themselves.

Losing two fish in 3 weeks would however indicate an underlying issue somewhere. 

I’m reviewing ferts with a view to reducing load so the water report is getting a picking through. ‘I know guys, plenty of heavy fertilised tanks out there with happy fish’ but I’ve more ferts than I need so it won’t do any harm at least. 

I’m also going to see if I can confirm my male to female ratio in this community. 
1” fish in a 7ft heavily planted aquarium so that should be fun!! but maybe these guys are being harassed to death!!?


----------



## xZaiox (16 Jun 2022)

KirstyF said:


> This is the kind of general malaise that would make me think water quality issue or stress issue. ie something that would not normally be a problem but comes up due to the fish having a weakened immune system or stress caused by something in-tank.


I would generally tend to agree since you've had 2 fish die from (presumably) different causes within a short space of time, however do note that sometimes unfortunate coincidences can occur. Apparently CPD's lifespans are typically 3-5 years in captivity - is it possible these were just old fish with weakened immune systems?

It's definitely wise to be on the look out for causes when fish die in order to intercept anything contagious and spreading, but it's also easy to 'jump the gun' early and become over-involved and upset the ecological balance of the tank. Since these fish appeared to die from different causes, I personally would just take a 'wait-and-see' approach - keep up the good tank maintenance practices and see if anything else develops. I would maybe keep an eye out for signs of parasites though, a lot of bacterial and/or fungal infections are often opportunistic, and it becomes easier for them to infect fish that are already dealing with parasitic infections. Look for signs like flashing/itching, randomly darting across the tank, fast/laboured breathing, open gill covers, breathing at the top of the tank, white/clear poop, refusal of food or spitting food back out, hiding (this last one is a vague sign but often indicates stress). It can be much more difficult to notice some of these signs in smaller fish unfortunately.

Hope some of this helps.


----------



## Conort2 (17 Jun 2022)

I kept cpd’s in the past and had similar issues. I believe the stock available now is pretty inbred and generally of really poor quality. All other fish I kept with them were fine but I lost cpd’s one by one to stuff like wasting away, crooked spines, ulcers. I have a feeling a lot of them in the trade have fish tb or something similar. 

You find the same with dwarf gouramis, neon tetras, guppy’s etc. A lot of the stock these days is of terrible quality. 

Cheers


----------



## MirandaB (17 Jun 2022)

Conort2 said:


> I kept cpd’s in the past and had similar issues. I believe the stock available now is pretty inbred and generally of really poor quality. All other fish I kept with them were fine but I lost cpd’s one by one to stuff like wasting away, crooked spines, ulcers. I have a feeling a lot of them in the trade have fish tb or something similar.
> 
> You find the same with dwarf gouramis, neon tetras, guppy’s etc. A lot of the stock these days is of terrible quality.
> 
> Cheers


Have to agree with @Conort2,cpds are of very poor quality these days and I won't keep them anymore because of this.


----------



## xZaiox (17 Jun 2022)

Conort2 said:


> You find the same with dwarf gouramis


@Conort2  - I find this comment very interesting. The fish in my main tank are nice and healthy (I do strict quarantine procedures and am very diligent with parasites), yet despite this, I don't ever seem to be able to keep dwarf gouramis alive. I have a soft spot for the blue dwarf gourami with red stripes, and so I've purchased multiple of them over the years. They always end up dying to symptoms that seem to be either the infamous iridovirus or fish TB. 

I've stopped buying them because I can't keep them alive, yet have success with pretty much any other fish. Go figure...


----------



## Conort2 (17 Jun 2022)

xZaiox said:


> I have a soft spot for the blue dwarf gourami with red stripes, and so I've purchased multiple of them over the years. They always end up dying to symptoms that seem to be either the infamous iridovirus or fish TB.


It’s almost a given they’ll have iridovirus, most people do the same as you and give up in the end.

Honey or thick lip gourami are about the closest you can get to a dwarf gourami without the iridovirus problem. 

Cheers


----------



## KirstyF (17 Jun 2022)

Ria95 said:


> we add





Conort2 said:


> I kept cpd’s in the past and had similar issues. I believe the stock available now is pretty inbred and generally of really poor quality. All other fish I kept with them were fine but I lost cpd’s one by one to stuff like wasting away, crooked spines, ulcers. I have a feeling a lot of them in the trade have fish tb or something similar.
> 
> You find the same with dwarf gouramis, neon tetras, guppy’s etc. A lot of the stock these days is of terrible quality.
> 
> Cheers



Well, an inherent weakness or genetic issue would be nasty but at least could be contained to this species and I’m just hoping it’s not something horribly contagious. It’s such a shame because they are lovely little fish, however, I won’t be replacing those that I’ve lost. 🙁


----------



## KirstyF (10 Aug 2022)

Been a bit quiet on this thread but not for good reason unfortunately.

Things seemed to be going ok for a good few weeks after the last thread and then I lost another CPD. A few weeks later, a gold cloud mountain minnow developed an ulcer. Just recently, I had another CPD, this time with an Ulcer and a bent spine, and I noticed that some of the Gold Clouds seemed to be losing weight.

So…..primary and certainly most frequent symptom has been Ulcers. The apparent loss of weight is, as far as I can tell, exclusive to the GCMM (so far) and these fish still seem to be actively eating. 

When the latest CPD, with both Ulcer and bent spine showed up, I spent yet another evening on-line and decided it was time to test.

I think @shangman ‘s thread probably raised my awareness too so, thank you for sharing hon. 

Results today have confirmed TB.

I’m sharing as much as anything to highlight what I’ve seen and experienced and perhaps to help anyone else try to recognise the symptoms.

It’s tough because often what you see can be caused by a multitude of other things and fish TB is supposed to be a rare thing….certainly not a conclusion that anyone should jump to but……on and off, unexplained deaths, without an immediately obvious cause and with multiple symptoms, could be an alarm bell.

The test cost me £160 and it won’t save any of my fish, but it will certainly stop me putting more in the tank and condemning them to the same fate. That alone, I feel is worth it. 

I don’t want to come across as alarmist, or worry people; there are so many other things that can make fish poorly but maybe this info can at least add to our pool of knowledge.


----------



## MirandaB (10 Aug 2022)

Really sorry to hear that @KirstyF  ☹️ 
Have to say that from what I see on forums and Facebook Mycobacterium is actually much more common than people realise.


----------



## xZaiox (10 Aug 2022)

Echoing Miranda here @KirstyF - really sorry to hear that. When I hear of frequently occurring ulcers I usually think of either flukes or fish TB, but since you've had the test done you've at least confirmed the fish TB.

Diana Walstad reported very good things of preventing mycobacterium infections from spreading using a UV steriliser - I don't know if that's something you'd be happy spending the cash on, but it's a potential option? I have one running in my main tank for this very reason. It won't treat an active infection, but appears to limit the spread. Do note that if you go this route, they generally require a limited water flow because the light needs to come in-contact with the pathogens for long enough. For this reason, I have mine running off a small underpowered secondary filter.


----------



## Midwife (10 Aug 2022)

xZaiox said:


> Echoing Miranda here @KirstyF - really sorry to hear that. When I hear of frequently occurring ulcers I usually think of either flukes or fish TB, but since you've had the test done you've at least confirmed the fish TB.
> 
> Diana Walstad reported very good things of preventing mycobacterium infections from spreading using a UV steriliser - I don't know if that's something you'd be happy spending the cash on, but it's a potential option? I have one running in my main tank for this very reason. It won't treat an active infection, but appears to limit the spread. Do note that if you go this route, they generally require a limited water flow because the light needs to come in-contact with the pathogens for long enough. For this reason, I have mine running off a small underpowered secondary filter.


UV steriliser won't work.  The infection lives within the fish where the uv light cannot penatrate.


----------



## shangman (10 Aug 2022)

I’m really sorry to hear that  I had a friend on Instagram go through the same thing last week too. Idk if this is a newer thing making a wave, or if it was rarely reported before and still happened just as frequently but it sucks that we’re experiencing it either way. Very disheartening and I send you big love ❤️❤️❤️

Make sure to protect yourself with some proper gloves no matter what you do with it, my friend caught it cleaning out an old tank (didn’t even realise it had tb at the time ), nicked under their nail and then experienced a tear of hell and heavy antibiotics. Now it’s confirmed, be extra careful.

I wonder if we can work out a quarantine length to avoid spreading this into our community tanks - when did you last add fish? I’m still not sure if a longer quarantine would stop main tanks from catching it, but it would be worth it to gather info and see in case. For me it was 6 weeks after adding new fish that fish started to show obvious symptoms, and it was the newest fish that showed symptoms first for me. I don’t think that’s always the case though!


----------



## xZaiox (10 Aug 2022)

Midwife said:


> UV steriliser won't work.  The infection lives within the fish where the uv light cannot penatrate.


As I said above -


xZaiox said:


> It won't treat an active infection, but appears to limit the spread.


You can read about Diana Walstad's experience here, it seems like promising stuff - https://dianawalstad.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/mb__2017c.pdf


----------



## KirstyF (11 Aug 2022)

shangman said:


> I’m really sorry to hear that  I had a friend on Instagram go through the same thing last week too. Idk if this is a newer thing making a wave, or if it was rarely reported before and still happened just as frequently but it sucks that we’re experiencing it either way. Very disheartening and I send you big love ❤️❤️❤️
> 
> Make sure to protect yourself with some proper gloves no matter what you do with it, my friend caught it cleaning out an old tank (didn’t even realise it had tb at the time ), nicked under their nail and then experienced a tear of hell and heavy antibiotics. Now it’s confirmed, be extra careful.
> 
> I wonder if we can work out a quarantine length to avoid spreading this into our community tanks - when did you last add fish? I’m still not sure if a longer quarantine would stop main tanks from catching it, but it would be worth it to gather info and see in case. For me it was 6 weeks after adding new fish that fish started to show obvious symptoms, and it was the newest fish that showed symptoms first for me. I don’t think that’s always the case though!



Thanks hon and I have super long gloves on the way. 😊

I’ve just gone through all my info and between the last fish added and the first confirmed ulcer was 11weeks.

However:

I can’t guarantee that was the first actual loss. With the tank being huge and well planted and the fish being tiny and numerous, earlier unnoticed losses are possible. I would certainly say that I have more losses in the CPD population than I can account for and these have been undoubtedly the worst affected, but these were also one of the earlier fish in the tank. If it came from them, you would think other losses may have shown up earlier! The CPD’s have been in since 15th Jan and first known loss was 24th May. 

I have also added both shrimp and snails after the last fish, and as the specific bacteria type has not been identified, it could still have come in with these. 

Interestingly I have seen no signs of illness in the very last batch of fish added (5th March) and numbers are at least close to the original count. It’s almost impossible to confirm for sure. They don’t hang around in a single group and there are lots of places to hide. 

The very first fish in the tank were my cardinals however, who because they shoal, can in fact be counted, and I don’t appear to have lost a single one! 

I also still have a full contingent of peacock goby and SAE’s who were also earlier additions. 

I think there may be an element of susceptibility that may skew things, but a two to three week quarantine is most certainly not going to cover it. 6-8wks maybe!?


----------



## Midwife (11 Aug 2022)

xZaiox said:


> As I said above -
> 
> You can read about Diana Walstad's experience here, it seems like promising stuff





xZaiox said:


> As I said above -
> 
> You can read about Diana Walstad's experience here, it seems like promising stuff - https://dianawalstad.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/mb__2017c.pdf


My information is from Sprucepets.com


----------



## MirandaB (11 Aug 2022)

KirstyF said:


> I think there may be an element of susceptibility that may skew things, but a two to three week quarantine is most certainly not going to cover it. 6-8wks maybe!?


It's not going to be something you can really quarantine for as it can take months to show up and then some fish will just carry it and never show any outward symptoms.
Stress is definitely a major factor in my opinion (that also goes for a lot of other fish diseases too) lowering the fishes immune capabilities and making them more likely to succumb.
I stopped keeping cpds a few years ago as I think it's rife among those,I can't remember the last time I saw a batch for sale in an lfs which I  considered to be healthy and I tend to avoid buying fish that have been bred in certain areas of Europe such as the Czech Republic where I know studies have shown Myco has a high prevalence.
Would love someone over here to conduct a study for Mycobacterium in the aquarium trade but I suspect that's low on funding priorities so will likely never happen.
It's a bullet anyone will be lucky to dodge really,qt or not,because most lfs have shared sump systems and will have had fish come in with it at some point.


----------



## KirstyF (11 Aug 2022)

xZaiox said:


> As I said above -
> 
> You can read about Diana Walstad's experience here, it seems like promising stuff - https://dianawalstad.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/mb__2017c.pdf



Really interesting article @xZaiox that certainly prompts some questions. 

Just curious, can I assume you are running your UV 24/7, without any undesirable impact and can I ask how long you’ve been running for?

My take is:
UV will obviously kill beneficial bacteria that is ‘screened’ as well as the nasties, but most BB is not free floating so colony impact would be minimal. 

I guess you could argue the same for the Mico bacteria but, as it replicates so slowly by comparison, it would seem logical that the process could at least swing things in the BB’s favour to some extent.

Her experience certainly seems to indicate that the use of UV, slowed/reduced mortality rates, though of course, a single experience does not a conclusion make!

The article also links to @MirandaB ‘s comment regarding stress, where particular situations may be risk points (introduction of new fish) and or underlying weakness increases susceptibility.

So, buying fish from reputable sources, always a good idea but also

would a decent period of quarantine allow fish who may have been shipped, dumped in an LFS tank and then raked back out and shipped to you, the opportunity to settle better into new water parameters, feeding routines etc, in a single group, prior to being added to a community tank for example….or is the stress inevitable. 

Should we consider, to minimise stress, minimal introductions over longer periods rather than frequent new introductions as is often the case when stocking new tanks.

Should we bolster fish with treatments, as a matter of course, to protect them when they arrive with us so they are less likely to be attacked by other illness that may weaken them. If so, what? (Could be contentious) 

Should we consider UV to minimise bacterial load (in an established tank) so that Mico bacteria are less able to ‘take hold’ 

If a fish is already chronically infected with MB, the chance of saving it is slim but maybe the spread of the disease is not entirely inevitable and/or can be slowed down in an already infected tank. If UV can assist with this, then maybe it’s paid for itself already! 

Just my thoughts!


----------



## Hufsa (11 Aug 2022)

Ill just add this small note, if one runs UV on their tank, it might be a good idea to turn it off around the time the micro fertilizer gets dosed, as the UV will break down some of the light sensitive chelates.
Dont have anything else to add unfortunately


----------



## xZaiox (11 Aug 2022)

KirstyF said:


> Just curious, can I assume you are running your UV 24/7, without any undesirable impact and can I ask how long you’ve been running for?


Yeah, I run my UV 24/7, I haven't noticed any negative impacts whatsoever. I've been running it for probably at least 3-4 months now.


KirstyF said:


> My take is:
> UV will obviously kill beneficial bacteria that is ‘screened’ as well as the nasties, but *most BB is not free floating* so colony impact would be minimal.


Yes to the bit I quoted in bold - your beneficial bacteria will be safe as they will be colonized in rich biofilms all over your tank, filter, plants and substrate.


KirstyF said:


> I guess you could argue the same for the Mico bacteria but, as it replicates so slowly by comparison, it would seem logical that the process could at least swing things in the BB’s favour to some extent.


Other bacteria will be fighting for the same space as the mycobacterium, which seems to be Diana's understanding of why clean tanks are more susceptible to it. I would also imagine that bacteria that isn't free-floating will be much less likely to become pathogenic. Sure, if your fish are scratching themselves on rocks due to a parasitic infection, then they may come into contact with whatever bacteria is on the impact site, but as long as the fish are just swimming, then any bacteria will have to get to the fish first, which I guess is where the UV steriliser comes in.


KirstyF said:


> Her experience certainly seems to indicate that the use of UV, slowed/reduced mortality rates, though of course, *a single experience does not a conclusion make!*


Yes, I do also agree with this, everything must be taken with a grain of salt. So far the fish in my main tank seem nice and healthy, I haven't had any issues for a long time now.


KirstyF said:


> would a decent period of quarantine allow fish who may have been shipped, dumped in an LFS tank and then raked back out and shipped to you, the opportunity to settle better into new water parameters, feeding routines etc, in a single group, prior to being added to a community tank for example….or is the stress inevitable.


Stress is inevitable IMO. We're giant creatures and the fish have no clue what's going on. I would imagine being in a quarantine tank with barely any cover will itself be stressful. I put half-cut PVC pipes in my quarantine tank so they can hide, but still, I'm sure the ones in my main tank that's densely planted will feel more secure.


KirstyF said:


> Should we bolster fish with treatments, as a matter of course, to protect them when they arrive with us so they are less likely to be attacked by other illness that may weaken them. If so, what? (Could be contentious)


I pre-medicate my quarantined fish with praziquantel, levamisole and metronidazole. This targets hexamita, capillaria, camallanus, spironucelus, flukes & gill flukes, tapeworms etc. I don't medicate for ich unless I see it (and it will usually show up by the end of the quarantine process if the fish are carrying it), and I don't medicate for bacterial or fungal infections unless I see them. I chose the medications I use because they're all relatively mild (especially metronidazole and praziquantel), and in my experience parasites seem to be one of the main causes of health issues (assuming water quality is good).

A lot of aquarium fish are either wild-caught, or kept in tanks with wild-caught specimens. Ever since I started this antiparasitic protocol, my death rates have dramatically decreased. Of course, this is just what works for me, your mileage may very.


KirstyF said:


> If a fish is already chronically infected with MB, the chance of saving it is slim but maybe the spread of the disease is not entirely inevitable and/or can be slowed down in an already infected tank. If UV can assist with this, then maybe it’s paid for itself already!


This is my line of thinking.


----------



## shangman (12 Aug 2022)

KirstyF said:


> So, buying fish from reputable sources, always a good idea but also
> 
> would a decent period of quarantine allow fish who may have been shipped, dumped in an LFS tank and then raked back out and shipped to you, the opportunity to settle better into new water parameters, feeding routines etc, in a single group, prior to being added to a community tank for example….or is the stress inevitable.
> 
> ...


This is exactly what I'll be doing in the future. Slowly adding new fish (and small fish in good groups), quarantining each species in a nice planted tank for 2+ months and treating for all treatable problems before they go in the main tank. Long but worth it. Will have UV in there from the start, minimising any myco that does appear, and other diseases too! Personally I also will avoid CO2 in my big community tank to avoid extra stress too.



KirstyF said:


> Thanks hon and I have super long gloves on the way. 😊
> 
> I’ve just gone through all my info and between the last fish added and the first confirmed ulcer was 11weeks.
> 
> ...


Ahh it is similar to my tank, just impossible to tell! There have been random deaths every now and again before, so can never say where we got it from or how long it was in there. Very frustrating! I honestly don't know which shops to go to and which to avoid tbh. I'm gonna go with 8 weeks quarantine I think, and pray lol.

When researching I did find that some fish are more succeptable than others, like your danios, my pencils were toast. I think zebra danios are the classic ones to go down first, and apparently bettas and other gouramis often too. 

Have you decided yet if you going to try UV and seeing if the rest of your fish can get through this, or will you start over?


----------



## KirstyF (12 Aug 2022)

shangman said:


> This is exactly what I'll be doing in the future. Slowly adding new fish (and small fish in good groups), quarantining each species in a nice planted tank for 2+ months and treating for all treatable problems before they go in the main tank. Long but worth it. Will have UV in there from the start, minimising any myco that does appear, and other diseases too! Personally I also will avoid CO2 in my big community tank to avoid extra stress too.
> 
> 
> Ahh it is similar to my tank, just impossible to tell! There have been random deaths every now and again before, so can never say where we got it from or how long it was in there. Very frustrating! I honestly don't know which shops to go to and which to avoid tbh. I'm gonna go with 8 weeks quarantine I think, and pray lol.
> ...



I’m searching for a good UV solution now….anything to up the odds…..and am currently planning to see the population out.

I will euthanise at the first sign of symptoms, as I don’t want the fish to suffer, but with over 100 fish in the tank still, and most of them still appearing to be fully fit at this stage, a full cull doesn’t feel right. I’m trying to be conscious of the fact that I have to do what is best for them and not for me, just because I’m too pussy to do what needs doing…..and now I’ve had the confirmation, I will likely euthanise those few suffering with weight loss this weekend. They are very unlikely to recover. (No one has ulcers right now) 

I’m hoping to find the right balance and that, with this number of fish, the odds will give me some survivors. Unfortunately we all know the mortality rate is pretty awful. 

I also have shrimp and it is not yet clear whether the type of MB I have is one they can suffer from or not, but obviously they can’t move to an alternate tank due to contamination. 

This is up for review of course. If things take a turn for the worse, then welfare is paramount, and there could come a time where early euthanasia is a better option. 

Either way, I plan to keep the tank as is for a good long while yet, even if it’s ultimately plant only. 

It seems kind of tragic to possibly end up with a 7ft tank with no fish in it but, right now, that feels less tragic than having to start over and trash my beautiful indoor garden as well. Not to mention that the cost of replacing everything in a tank this size is……prohibitive! 

I so hope some of them make it! 🤞


----------



## shangman (12 Aug 2022)

KirstyF said:


> I’m searching for a good UV solution now….anything to up the odds…..and am currently planning to see the population out.
> 
> I will euthanise at the first sign of symptoms, as I don’t want the fish to suffer, but with over 100 fish in the tank still, and most of them still appearing to be fully fit at this stage, a full cull doesn’t feel right. I’m trying to be conscious of the fact that I have to do what is best for them and not for me, just because I’m too pussy to do what needs doing…..and now I’ve had the confirmation, I will likely euthanise those few suffering with weight loss this weekend. They are very unlikely to recover. (No one has ulcers right now)
> 
> ...


I don't think it's weakness to stick it out and see if you can save the rest of the fish  If more of my fish were still looking healthy I would've done the same. I never noticed any shrimp having problems with the TB.

Euthanising the anorexic fish is the best thing to do, that was one of the most common symptoms I found. It's important partly became the disease spreads to new fish when an infected one dies and the rest eat it - partly why it's called fish zombie disease  So better to whip them out now for their sake and the rest. 

For UV I recommend a TMC Vecton, they're big powerful bastards. When I researched it it basically said get the most powerful one you can, underpoweed UV won't do anything. I really hope it works well for you like it did for Walstad, she eventually added new fish with no problems after a few months with UV, it would be great to know if that's repeatable!


----------



## KirstyF (12 Aug 2022)

shangman said:


> For UV I recommend a TMC Vecton, they're big powerful bastards. When I researched it it basically said get the most powerful one you can, underpoweed UV won't do anything. I really hope it works well for you like it did for Walstad, she eventually added new fish with no problems after a few months with UV, it would be great to know if that's repeatable!



Nice shout! Just taken a look at these and they look pretty good. The 600 says max 1900lt ph and my biomaster 850’s are rated at 1500 (and we all know you never really get that) so I reckon I could just plumb straight in without a bypass and still get enough dwell time? 

It would be much easier than a separate line. Even with the size of my cabinet, there’s a lot going on under there already! I’ll need to do some jiggery pokery to mount it; It’s huge!!! 

What do you reckon folks?


----------



## shangman (12 Aug 2022)

KirstyF said:


> Nice shout! Just taken a look at these and they look pretty good. The 600 says max 1900lt ph and my biomaster 850’s are rated at 1500 (and we all know you never really get that) so I reckon I could just plumb straight in without a bypass and still get enough dwell time?
> 
> It would be much easier than a separate line. Even with the size of my cabinet, there’s a lot going on under there already! I’ll need to do some jiggery pokery to mount it; It’s huge!!!
> 
> What do you reckon folks?


Yes I did the same thing, went for something with a bit higher rating than my filter. In reality my filter is really slow lol so I think it does a really good job. I attach it to my main Oase 600 filter, it’s easy but I didn’t realise how long they are so mine sticks out the back  of my cabinet and the pipe has to come round to the side. Nobody sees that but though so never mind lol!


----------

