# White spot on german ram



## Aqua Hero (19 Jun 2015)

i bought a new german ram for a pet store. he was active and the most dominate in the tank so i decided to take him. i decided to quarantine it for a while and i noticed 3 small white spots on the fish. im guessing it has white spot.

the temperature is 86F and i have already done a 50% water change with a good gavel vac. 

does anyone know how to treat it? should i take the salt route or the medicine route.


----------



## sciencefiction (19 Jun 2015)

86 is only going to maintain the white spot, preventing it from getting worse so it's a good start. You need to get at 89-90 and maintain for at least a week and even two if the fish can handle it, which rams should.  And obviously you need lots of aeration to do that. On it's own that high temperature can eradicate white spot.
Additionally/optional....
I don't know if Rams can handle salt, if they do, start slowly increasing the salinity in the course of 3-4 days slowly!! until you reach a tablespoon per 5 gallons of water(for sensitive fish) If rams can handle salt, you can double the salt amount.
Water changes are not important. It's important that you maintain that temperature at any given time and also the salt level as well if adding any. Water changes can cause shock in fish if the TDS/salinity starts varies before/after a water change. This applies when you finally remove the salt. It should be done gradually via daily 20% water changes until the TDS is back to the source water.

That's what I'd do, have done. Others may have other ideas. I know meds may sound very appealing, but white spot meds are toxic to many fish and kill more fish than ich.

Be careful not to spread it to other tanks. I used boiling water for any equipment shared and it worked fine for me.


----------



## Aqua Hero (19 Jun 2015)

sciencefiction said:


> 86 is only going to maintain the white spot, preventing it from getting worse so it's a good start. You need to get at 89-90 and maintain for at least a week and even two if the fish can handle it, which rams should.  And obviously you need lots of aeration to do that. On it's own that high temperature can eradicate white spot.
> Additionally/optional....
> I don't know if Rams can handle salt, if they do, start slowly increasing the salinity in the course of 3-4 days slowly!! until you reach a tablespoon per 5 gallons of water(for sensitive fish) If rams can handle salt, you can double the salt amount.
> Water changes are not important. It's important that you maintain that temperature at any given time and also the salt level as well if adding any. Water changes can cause shock in fish if the TDS/salinity starts varies before/after a water change. This applies when you finally remove the salt. It should be done gradually via daily 20% water changes until the TDS is back to the source water.
> ...


Well the temperature has increased to 88F and is still climbing. My filter is creating so.much surface agitation water is literally splashing on my desk.

I was never to keen on buying the meds but I wanted to get an opinion either way.  
I thought water changes were good because it removes the ich spores that are lying in the substrate. The male ram only has three visible spots and the female has none. My male is acting very calm and normal. Eating well and exploring the tank. I had to put the female in a breeding box because my male was being way too aggressive. 

I won't add salt just yet. I will wait a few days to see if the spots increase or decrease. 

Cheers for the info

Sent from my D2303 using Tapatalk


----------



## sciencefiction (19 Jun 2015)

Aqua Hero said:


> I thought water changes were good because it removes the ich spores that are lying in the substrate



Yes, I know that's the general consensus. First of all temperature at high levels will inhibit the ich from spreading and at 89-90 will kill it where ever it is providing you maintain that for long enough and the species of fish can handle. it.
But you can do some if you want. Water quality is important for sick fish.  Make sure the new water is at that high temperature and temperature doesn't drop because of the lights going off and such or because your thermometer isn't precise.

I did no water changes at all for 8 days as I added salt and I couldn't control the salinity, dealing with a clown loach too.  I still got rid of the white spot without any problems. The problem with white spot in my opinion is people dumping meds, salt, high temperature all at once,  and huge water changes varying the levels all the time.  Then they blame ich for killing the fish.

And yes, high temperature will make them go nuts, very active and maybe aggressive a bit but keeping the other one in the box is worse for the fish itself. Maybe make some hiding places.


----------



## Aqua Hero (19 Jun 2015)

sciencefiction said:


> Yes, I know that's the general consensus. First of all temperature at high levels will inhibit the ich from spreading and at 89-90 will kill it where ever it is providing you maintain that for long enough and the species of fish can handle. it.
> But you can do some if you want. Water quality is important for sick fish.  Make sure the new water is at that high temperature and temperature doesn't drop because of the lights going off and such or because your thermometer isn't precise.
> 
> I did no water changes at all for 8 days as I added salt and I couldn't control the salinity, dealing with a clown loach too.  I still got rid of the white spot without any problems. The problem with white spot in my opinion is people dumping meds, salt, high temperature all at once,  and huge water changes varying the levels all the time.  Then they blame ich for killing the fish.


I see. Alright well both the thermometer and heater are directly opposite the water flow so I will get the best and most accurate readings this way. 

I will chill with the water changes and add salt. 

Sent from my D2303 using Tapatalk


----------



## sciencefiction (19 Jun 2015)

Add salt slowly, over the course of a few days...no rush with it until you reach the desired level(count your spoons) and melt it first in a jug.  Don't worry about the water changes. Feed as normal.  After all signs of white spot are gone for 4-5 days at least, start daily small water changes dropping the TDS no more than 80-100ppm a day.  1 tablespoon per 5G  and temperature at 32 C didn't affect my plants but I didn't have many species, some crypts, echinodorus and moss that totally loved the salt and exploded in growth for some reason.


----------



## sciencefiction (19 Jun 2015)

And good luck!


----------



## Henry (19 Jun 2015)

Good water quality and conditions is the best way to get rid of white spot. 86 is comfortable for rams, so you're fine there. Are they wild or tank bred? If they're wild, they need softer than soft water. Tank bred are fine, as long as extremes are avoided.

I wouldn't recommend salt. It has been used for years to counteract the hypoxic effect nitrogenous compounds have on the gills by increasing the rate of absorption of oxygen, but I doubt it'll have much effect on parasites. Perhaps it'd be useful in advanced stages when the spots cover the gills, but by that point it's probably too late anyway.

Clean water and high quality food is what you should be aiming to provide. If the fish is happy in it's environment, it'll overcome the infestation of it's own accord.


----------



## Henry (19 Jun 2015)

Sorry to second guess you Sciencefiction. I've years of experience killing rams


----------



## sciencefiction (19 Jun 2015)

No worries Henry. I still recommend temperature to be kept at 89-90. You won't get rid of ich below that no matter the water quality.


----------



## Aqua Hero (19 Jun 2015)

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh guys. Damn it. This is the problem with ich, there are so many contradictions and different ways to treat it which makes it so confusing. 

Alright. I did have them in my other 30 gallon planted tank for a few minutes before removing them into my betta tank (dw the betta has been moved). The temperature from day one has been around 84f and I have maxed out the heater so it's around 88F. All my plants are hardy and can tolerate the temps. I did a 50% water change because I was vacuuming all the rocks, wood, plants and substrate I could get too. The fish in there are healthy and eating fine. The otocinclus seem to be eating the most as their bellies have doubles in size since I got them. I can't use salt because of my precious snails and shrimp. 

The rams are in the betta tank and the male is eating and moving fine. He has good reactions. The female is more healthy since it doesn't have the spots but had to be separated via the box because of the male constantly stressing her. Even in the box she is still eating but not moving much. There are plants and wood in this tank but it's just one Anubias, some Najas and duckweed and I don't care for them so much. 

Sent from my D2303 using Tapatalk


----------



## PARAGUAY (19 Jun 2015)

Aqua Hero said:


> Ahhhhhhhhhhhh guys. Damn it. This is the problem with ich, there are so many contradictions and different ways to treat it which makes it so confusing.
> Thats the reason I  use ESHA.I used it last a couple of years ago on a purchase of some Cardinals.I think the whitespot was brought on by stress with a long car journey back to home


----------



## sciencefiction (19 Jun 2015)

There's a possibility you've contaminated both tanks if the fish were already in the other tank. It's up to you what to do. Whatever you decide, don't use the same stuff between tanks just in case.

High temperatures in both would be my go. The problem with high temperature is the oxygen level which some fish/shrimp can't tolerate. If they are cherry shrimp, they will if you have really good surface movement/aeration, splashing all over making bubbles if possible. Ottos can breathe from the surface too and it's quite possible they would be fine too. But it's up to you really. Research as much as you can about it. There's one thing about ottos, shrimp and snails, they won't tolerate ich meds. So I'd definitely go the temperature with them rather than meds.


----------



## PARAGUAY (19 Jun 2015)

Sorry got my input in your quote


----------



## sciencefiction (19 Jun 2015)

Ich is the type of parasite that a lot of fish, especially wild caught can carry and combat via strong immune system for some time before they actually succumb to it , which is of course made easy by any sort of stress. And during this time they are infectious to other weaker fish. But it's the type of parasite that needs complete eradication. Many fish can get immune to it and never get infected if they had it in the past.  The point is..,don't blame yourselves if your fish get it. Deal with it for good. A fish tank is not nature and you don't want that thing lingering in your tank waiting for stressed fish. Although science says ich doesn't go dormant. Maybe it doesn't or it does. The point is it is one of the few we understand and can be eradicated for good.


----------



## Aqua Hero (19 Jun 2015)

sciencefiction said:


> There's a possibility you've contaminated both tanks if the fish were already in the other tank. It's up to you what to do. Whatever you decide, don't use the same stuff between tanks just in case.
> 
> High temperatures in both would be my go. The problem with high temperature is the oxygen level which some fish/shrimp can't tolerate. If they are cherry shrimp, they will if you have really good surface movement/aeration, splashing all over making bubbles if possible. Ottos can breathe from the surface too and it's quite possible they would be fine too. But it's up to you really. Research as much as you can about it. There's one thing about ottos, shrimp and snails, they won't tolerate ich meds. So I'd definitely go the temperature with them rather than meds.


I definitely will. I have my Fluval outlet near the surface of the tank so there is alot of agitation. My shrimp haven't changed in behaviour much. They hide a bite more because of the betta (he doesn't attack them) but at night they come out and scavenge. I will use the temperature method.

Sent from my D2303 using Tapatalk


----------



## sciencefiction (19 Jun 2015)

Get that surface agitation like in a river if you can.  That's really important. I can't see it so I can't tell. We all have different understanding what strong surface movement is. That's all I want to stress about. And again, good luck. I hope it's a 100% success which it should be but there's going to be some stressful time for you ahead.
And also, watch the fish and critters while doing so, they'll tell you if they are ok. For the most part besides being extremely hyper, they should act normal and be very hungry because of the high temps!


----------



## alto (20 Jun 2015)

Aqua Hero said:


> This is the problem with ich, there are so many contradictions and different ways to treat it which makes it so confusing



You might read this article for some "science"  (you can go for "scholar" papers if you're really determined ) - the EDIS circulars are decent general summaries.
There are some temperature resistant strains of ich that have been reported (I did a quick google for the link but got far too many "hits" to bother wading through to find the particular paper, sorry)

Note that you should see the spots "drop" off fairly quickly if your chosen treatment is effective, continue to "treat" for another 1-2 weeks, then maintain fish in isolation but usual maintenance/care for at least another week to be certain that fish are "ich-free" (2 weeks at this stage is better but depends on suitability of tank situation for fish ... whichever ram is maintained in the box will be stressed & more susceptible to disease).

I prefer to treat for ich using Formalin as it's very effective against various external parasites.


----------



## Aqua Hero (20 Jun 2015)

alto said:


> You might read this article for some "science"  (you can go for "scholar" papers if you're really determined ) - the EDIS circulars are decent general summaries.
> There are some temperature resistant strains of ich that have been reported (I did a quick google for the link but got far too many "hits" to bother wading through to find the particular paper, sorry)
> 
> Note that you should see the spots "drop" off fairly quickly if your chosen treatment is effective, continue to "treat" for another 1-2 weeks, then maintain fish in isolation but usual maintenance/care for at least another week to be certain that fish are "ich-free" (2 weeks at this stage is better but depends on suitability of tank situation for fish ... whichever ram is maintained in the box will be stressed & more susceptible to disease).
> ...


Yeah I heard about the heat resistant strain but people said it's rare. The male ram has one spot so I did another gravel vacuum to remove any traces on my sand, ornaments and plants. 

I can't seem to get the temperature to 89-90 so I will use the salt method. 

Can I use saxa coarse sea salt 100% natural for it

Sent from my D2303 using Tapatalk


----------



## Aqua Hero (20 Jun 2015)

sciencefiction said:


> Get that surface agitation like in a river if you can.  That's really important. I can't see it so I can't tell. We all have different understanding what strong surface movement is. That's all I want to stress about. And again, good luck. I hope it's a 100% success which it should be but there's going to be some stressful time for you ahead.
> And also, watch the fish and critters while doing so, they'll tell you if they are ok. For the most part besides being extremely hyper, they should act normal and be very hungry because of the high temps!


Betta tank where rams are being treated 








Sent from my D2303 using Tapatalk


----------



## Aqua Hero (20 Jun 2015)

sciencefiction said:


> Get that surface agitation like in a river if you can.  That's really important. I can't see it so I can't tell. We all have different understanding what strong surface movement is. That's all I want to stress about. And again, good luck. I hope it's a 100% success which it should be but there's going to be some stressful time for you ahead.
> And also, watch the fish and critters while doing so, they'll tell you if they are ok. For the most part besides being extremely hyper, they should act normal and be very hungry because of the high temps!















I'm sure this is adequate agitation 

Sent from my D2303 using Tapatalk


----------



## dw1305 (20 Jun 2015)

Hi all, 
I've use <"eSHA EXIT"> successfully for white-spot. Have a look at <"Treating for white">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Aqua Hero (20 Jun 2015)

i havent used it but i have already bought the salt for the treatment. i bought saxa coarse sea salt. it says 100% natural. at the back it says its free from additives. will this be okay for the treatment.


----------



## Aqua Hero (20 Jun 2015)

also how much do i put in again


----------



## sciencefiction (20 Jun 2015)

Sea salt is not my favourite,  may raise the TDS way too much but it should work.  I used rock salt from the supermarket.
Anyway, I'd add 1 tablespoon of salt per each 5 gallons as a final target so I'd spread that amount over the course of 4 days, don't dump that at once.  You can do 2 tablespoons of salt per 5G which is better for white spot but I didn't as I didn't want to push the fish's tolerance to salt and it worked fine for me.
With the high temperature the white spot should not be spreading to other uninfected fish as the temperature kills it when it falls off the fish and the life cycle is shorter which helps. Salt is to have the double protection just in case.


----------



## Aqua Hero (21 Jun 2015)

Okay so this morning I saw that the ram had zero spots. I did a 50% WC with gravel vac and added 1 tablespoon of sea salt since yesterday I added 2 tablespoons. 

Sent from my D2303 using Tapatalk


----------

