# Filters - What is actually correct?



## justissaayman (29 Jul 2013)

Hello All

As some of you may know I have a few tanks planned for the next 5-6 months and Im the process of moving as well as collecting all the relevant bits to make these projects reality.

My question is, what must I really believe in terms of filter capacity.
Let me explain:
I have 3 externals (a forth hopefully arriving soon):
Eheim 2213 (Classic 250),
Eheim Eco Pro 130 (bargain at £7.50)
JBL Crystal Profi E700

The 2213 is rated at 500-550lph and tanks up to 250liter...
the Eco Pro is rated at 600lph and tanks up to 130/150 liters (i forgot the exact literage), and
JBL at 700lph and tanks up to 150-200liters...

What is actually true? I was reading through the soil substrate post on this forum and the poster said you want 10x the turnover but darn that would require 2x 2213 in my simple 150liter tank, can I not run it from one of these filters?

Do the manufacturers take into consideration the drop in performance once the filter is in use, hence the lower volume like in the case of the JBL?

Any insigh is much appreciated.


----------



## tim (29 Jul 2013)

Hi, recommended filter capacity for a high tech planted tank is 10x tank volume ie 150 ltr tank 1500 ltr/hour filter this should cover any drop off in flow rate, this is not a requirement for low tech tanks. Reason for 10x flow rate is to ensure good distribution off co2 & nutrients around the tank best way to achieve this is with a spray bar running the full length of the back wall facing forward to create a circular motion around the tank ime this works very well.
Hope this helps.


----------



## justissaayman (29 Jul 2013)

Thanks Tim. The 155 liter tank will be a Soil tank with no CO2 injection and MAYBE a little EL Ferts. Could I just do that with the Eco Pro or should I rather use the JBL?


----------



## tim (29 Jul 2013)

Should be ok with the Eco on a low tech maybe have a read through big Tom and alistairs journals see what they use they are pretty much low tech gods IMO  you can always supplement the filter with a power head if you feel you have dead spots in the tank, I think with low tech getting the lighting right is more beneficial than flow.


----------



## justissaayman (29 Jul 2013)

Thats where im getting my inspiration from. Ill be popping on the 2x 10W LED Floodlights as lighting and hopefully that would be enough, but that tank is for once the other tanks are up and running. The planted amazon (biotope type) is going first, then the Betta/Shrimp tanks then the 155


----------



## Tim Harrison (29 Jul 2013)

I'd use the JBL with the minimum amount of media needed to support the bioload thus keeping the turn over as close to max as poss. I think it's ok to use around 5x turn over for low-energy it you've got low light, low bioload, and you're not dosing much etc, but personally I still try to stick to the 10x rule. The turnover always looks scary on paper - especially as tank capacity increases - but the actual flow is often surprisingly underwhelming, particularly if the flow is dispersed through a rear facing spray bar. IMO good flow and distribution are still needed in a low-energy tank to help promote healthy plant growth, although it's not necessarily essential.


----------



## justissaayman (29 Jul 2013)

Troi, then how in the heck will people run 2--300 liter tanks with 10x the throughtput. I just dont understand it. Like APS sells their 1000+ etc etc filters and after a little whilst they trickle, Eheim's stay strong yet they are rated lower. Who is right? and more realistic? This is such a weird industry.


----------



## Tim Harrison (29 Jul 2013)

The mind boggles...I guess multiples of very large well built filters, like Eheim and Hagen, and as Tim says powerheads. I think most filters are rated without the hindrance of media, so a lot of the time drop off is attributable to accumulation of detritus, and thereafter I suppose poor design and underpowered motors. It's just another reason why good house keeping is important. I think that good flow is also important in a low-energy tank because it probably facilitates better diffusion of relatively low levels of CO2 across plant membranes...well at least to a point. But hey, it's just an opinion...


----------



## justissaayman (29 Jul 2013)

Thue that. Im getting the Eco Pro a duck beak type output instead of the spray bar, is that a good idea?


----------



## Tim Harrison (29 Jul 2013)

You can only suck it and see. If it doesn't work out you can always swap it for a spray bar later, or vice-versa.


----------



## justissaayman (29 Jul 2013)

Ill try it as its a LOAD cheaper than the spraybar at the moment.


----------



## Andy Thurston (29 Jul 2013)

Make your own spraybar

http://item.mobileweb.ebay.co.uk/viewitem?sbk=1&nav=SEARCH&itemId=400320024546


----------



## justissaayman (29 Jul 2013)

Big Clown, then I need to buy the curly over the tank bar as well, the duckbeak shaped one is the curly over the tank bar as well as the outloet


----------



## sciencefiction (31 Jul 2013)

_Sorry for the lenghty post. _

Well filteres were probably mostly designed to take care of a certain bioload. So not only flow matters, but the size of the filter itself. I would presume that my Eheim 1000L/H can handle way larger tank than my Hagen internal U4, also rated 1000L/H, soley due to the difference in sizes.
And then of course it depends how manufacturers rate the flow, based on the powerhead itself, or after all media/piping etc which can lower it down quite a lot. Some manufacturers say it, some don't. If flow is what you want, then that's what you should concentrate on. Some people confuse flow with velocity too, thinking a filter blowing away their fish actually have more flow, but that could be due to the smaller outlet causing less water to come out at greater speed.  For handling certain bioload I think size of filter is as important as flow. Some say planted tanks don't need much filtration because the plants handle the water stats, but plants have waste too that needs handling by something. A heavily planted and large enough tank would be better off with decent filtration regardless of plants. It's just way more stable and will cause no harm at all.

And back to the original question, I also keep low tech tanks and I've got 10x turn over via filters, not even powerheads. The only reason I see one wouldn't put decent flow in a low tech is possibly because everyone setting up such tanks wants to get away with as little as possible investment. But even a low tech soil tank can end up heavily planted and you need quite a good flow to distribute the nutritients and natural co2 evenly, less chance of algae problems this way. And it gives you room for a better stocking and redundancy in case something happens to the plants and they don't grow as fast and as healthy as you'd like them sometimes. You may end up rescaping often, disturbing lots of substrate etc.. and plants themselves won't grow magically overnight to handle some unwanted situation although these could be rare enough depending on what type of aquascaper you are. An algae outbreak will also affect the plant growth, then fish will suffer while you are fixing it.

One thing is for sure, more flow and filtration even in a low tech tank is beneficial, then its up to experimenting how much you can get away with without causing the plants or stock to suffer long term.
I've got two planted journals for low tech tanks somewhere under my name, both have 10x filtration and both are low tech soil tanks.


----------



## justissaayman (31 Jul 2013)

Thanks loads m8! 
I dont have a 1000lph filter, so I have to choose one of the filters I have as I am semi skint on hardware right now. Would the JBL serve me best then and it and both the Eheims have really good filtration capacity / area for bacteria. Should I just spraybar it or will the duckbill pipe work?


----------



## sciencefiction (31 Jul 2013)

There may not be much difference between the JBL and Eheim 2213 in terms of flow( If it were me I'd probably use both  )As for outlet, I'd use one that gives the best coverage and a spraybar along the back lenght of the tank works very well.


----------



## justissaayman (31 Jul 2013)

Ok so to sum up. Create a super long spraybar (any tutorials on this forum??) and use either one of the filters.

NOTE: My Rio Negro biotope will be using on of these filters.


----------



## sciencefiction (31 Jul 2013)

Yes, and see how it goes.
There surely are a lot of threads around here for custom made spraybars I've come across.  Check the DIY section. The only downfall is that if the spraybar is too long for the fllter, the velocity could be very low and some mechanical movement of the plants is desirable.  You may try using a spraybar on the side instead if it's just one filter and then decide from there.


----------



## justissaayman (31 Jul 2013)

What about a spraybar with a T-piece in the middle ?


----------



## sciencefiction (31 Jul 2013)

I see why not. You can do whatever suits you as long as you follow the general rules for spraybar lenght, diameter, size and amount of holes etc.

Here are a couple of threads I just found:

Eheim 2260 - Custom Intake & Spray Bar | UK Aquatic Plant Society

custom spray bar help | UK Aquatic Plant Society


----------



## justissaayman (31 Jul 2013)

Im going to try the stock spraybar at first then ill get myself a fluval spraybar kit and use that on the back of the tank if needed.


----------



## bluemoon280 (31 Jul 2013)

Just my pennies worth. My understanding of the 10x turnover guide. Is that this is on fact circulation within the tank, rather than throughput of filters. 
This comes from marine tanks, where 20 -30 turnover rates are common. This is for water movement rather than filtration. 
After setting up your apprpriate external filter. You can add an internal pump/ wave maker, such as a tunze nano stream, vortech or similar. 
Regards


----------



## justissaayman (31 Jul 2013)

Interesting. 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD


----------



## sciencefiction (31 Jul 2013)

Yes, one can use powerheads too but the point is not just water movement and amount flow, but the flow pattern itself in a planted tank so as long as that's covered, it don't matter. External filters just provide a few more benefits like filtration capacity and extra volume, and to me it's easier setting up the flow with them so they all work to compliment each other, rather than crossing their flow patterns.


----------



## justissaayman (1 Aug 2013)

Played with the JBL last night and must say... its a NICE piece of equipment. Doesnt feel as solid as the eheims but really really well thought out and comes with ALL the media etc etc. Think Ill be using the Eheim for the low energy planted tank along with a small powerhead under the spraybar if I need more movement.

Not thinking about anything else right now and will make a new post once the tank is ready to be started


----------



## nduli (1 Aug 2013)

Big clown said:


> Make your own spraybar
> 
> http://item.mobileweb.ebay.co.uk/viewitem?sbk=1&nav=SEARCH&itemId=400320024546



If you use this stuff, then how do you provide a bung / cap / plug in the end of the bar?


----------



## tim (1 Aug 2013)

nduli said:


> If you use this stuff, then how do you provide a bung / cap / plug in the end of the bar?


You can buy solid acrylic rod to fit the internal diameter of the spray bar and cut a piece to bung the end ( easier to clean this way) or heat and pinch the end with pliers to seal.


----------



## nduli (2 Aug 2013)

tim said:


> You can buy solid acrylic rod to fit the internal diameter of the spray bar and cut a piece to bung the end ( easier to clean this way) or heat and pinch the end with pliers to seal.


 
spotted this on their website after i had posted, definately the cleanest way to 'bung' it. pinching wouldn't look anywhere near as good IMHO. thanks for the reply, been weighing up doing my own for a couple of days now.


----------



## Andy Thurston (2 Aug 2013)

Or you could get a free sample bung here
Barrel Plugs, plastic plugs, end plugs - Component Force - UK


----------

