# I am failing with a low tech



## Dolan

I have a low tech tank with the following:


Tetra Complete Substrate: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00MPYG0K8/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
NICREW Super Bright LED Light: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01HI42LKC/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
150L tank
Very nice filter which irrigates the surface
My photoperiod is *6 hours*

I have had it for about 3 months now, made sure its properly cycled using a fishless cycle

I didn't add fish until 2 months after. Maybe that was a bit long, but hey.

All my plants are dying and I am getting huge algae as seen on the glass

Plants:

Java Fern
Amazon Swords: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AMAZON-S...hash=item3d7159409a:m:maiV2Cp93SPX1qcRrQyxuSg
Elodea
Staurogyne repens
I am most concerned that my Amazon Swords and S.Repens are dying because I want to get more root feeding plants.

Could anyone think of any reason why this is failing?
Could it be the substrate? (I know Amazon Swords are heavy root feeders). Maybe I need root tabs?
Could it be me adding the fishes too late? (so fish waste cant feed the plants)
Is there something wrong with my lights?
What if I used soil as a bottom layer?


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## azawaza

My initial, non-expert, analysis is that you have too little plant mass with too much light intensity.

I would do a restart: save the fish in a bucket with airline, clear the algae in the tank, remove all decaying plants, do a large water change, then restart by planting lots of plants, especially fast growing stem plants. The plants you have are mostly slow-growers.

Hope this helps


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## Dolan

If I do a restart, would you think using organic soil + cap it off with the original substrate be a good idea?


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## Keith GH

Dolan



Dolan said:


> Very nice filter which irrigates the surface


.
That does not make it a good filter brand name and model information.



Dolan said:


> I have had it for about 3 months now, made sure its properly cycled using a fishless cycle


How was it tested?  Can you post a full water parameters 



Dolan said:


> I didn't add fish until 2 months after. Maybe that was a bit long,



and how it was done


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## rebel

I think you have done ok.

My suggestions:
1. Can you dim the light by 20%?
2. Clean the algae and siphon as much as you can.
3. Start dosing a complete all-in one fertiliser
4. 50% water changes weekly
5. Reassess in 4 weeks.


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## rebel

Are those java ferns buried in the substrate? if so, you need to make sure the rhizomes are not covered.


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## azawaza

Also Dolan, I forgot, and this is very very important...

You are *not* failing buddy!

In this hobby, *failing* = giving-up for reasons unknown

You still have a tank, you want to make things better so that's a good thing


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## Keith GH

Dolan



Dolan said:


> Very nice filter which irrigates the surface


.
That does not make it a good filter brand name and model information.
How often is it cleaned and how is it done.
Water change what percentage and how often?

Feeding amount and how often



Dolan said:


> I have had it for about 3 months now, made sure its properly cycled using a fishless cycle


How was it tested?  Can you post a full water parameters and how it was done



Dolan said:


> I didn't add fish until 2 months after. Maybe that was a bit long,


It is possible to have a fully planted tank and no inhabitants at all.



Dolan said:


> I am getting huge algae as seen on the glass


Why have you let it happen its easily cleaned off as soon as it starts.

With rooted plants I would prefer a deeper substrate.  Looking at the number of Swords now as soon as they start growing they will over crowed your tank very fast.

Info from Tetra 
Optimal maintenance of aquaria plants: For permanent healthy and magnificent plant growth, we recommend a monthly root fertilisation with Tetra Crypto and regular leaf fertilisation with Tetra PlantaMin or Tetra PlantaPro. In lush planted aquariums an additional enrichment of the important plant nutrient CO2 is recommended (e.g. using the Tetra CO2 Optimat or Tetra CO2 Plus). Furthermore a daily illumination time of 10 - 12 hours with constant light intensity (regular change of light source, every six to twelve months) should be assured. Avoid direct sunlight in the aquarium, as this promotes algae growth.
A few things for you to think about.

Sorry to say your tank is extremely dirty and very difficult to see into the tank.
Do you have the filter inlet and outlet at the same end? If so not a good practice opposite ends gives you a better flow.

RH end what is there, a measuring cup, a white?and a yellow?

Where to go I can only see one good solution completely strip the tank down, re home all the fish and plants and, start afresh.  This sounds very drastic and it is for a beginner.   Do a lot of research on how to set up, cycling a tank, substrate and planting.

Most important of all take it slowly and get every thing perfect before you start. 

Keith


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## Edvet

I would do a good clean ( also rub the leaves of the plants to remove the algea)
I would add a lot of floaters to decrease the light
I would do waterchanges once or twice a week (try to do 50%/week for a month or two)(and combine it with maintenance)
I would add some light ferts ( EI or some all in one solution WITH N and P)
keep this up for 6 weeks and show us the results


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## Halley

Definitely add some floating plants to help decrease the light and help outcompete the algae.


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## Dolan

Keith GH said:


> and how it was done



I acclimated the fish slowly. I left it in the bag for 45 minutes, then after, slowly added tank water into the bag while the bag was still in the tank.



Edvet said:


> I would add a lot of floaters to decrease the light





Halley said:


> Definitely add some floating plants to help decrease the light and help outcompete the algae.



Can you recommend me some to buy?



Edvet said:


> I would do waterchanges once or twice a week (try to do 50%/week for a month or two)(and combine it with maintenance)



As of yesterday, I am doing daily water changes



Edvet said:


> I would add some light ferts



I have added root tabs under the Amazon Swords. Is this enough? or should I do liquid column dosing too?



Keith GH said:


> Furthermore a daily illumination time of 10 - 12 hours with constant light intensity



I am not entirely sure leaving it on for that long is a good idea?



Keith GH said:


> Do you have the filter inlet and outlet at the same end?



Nope, intake is in bottom right, outlet is a spray bar on top left aiming into the water at a 45 degree angle, so circulation is pretty good


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## Halley

Amazon frogbit or water lettuce - duckweed can be difficult to control 


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## Dolan

Keith GH said:


> RH end what is there, a measuring cup, a white?and a yellow?



Haha. It's a sieve. Shouldn't be there, will be removed. The yellow thing is part of my automatic water changing system. It periodically changes water for me everyday. The yellow is a sponge guard to prevent the fish from being sucked into the system.


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## Dolan

azawaza said:


> You are *not* failing buddy!



Thanks for your kind words


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## rebel

Also that light at 15W seems to be very faint!!! Can you confirm the wattage?


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## Dolan

rebel said:


> Also that light at 15W seems to be very faint!!! Can you confirm the wattage?



The Amazon page says 11W. So it's probs 11W (unless they lie )

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01HI42LKC/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&th=1

80cm one - £39.99


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## Edvet

Dolan said:


> should I do liquid column dosing too?


Some light column dosing.


Dolan said:


> https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01HI42LKC/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&th=1


Missed that LED, it could be to low light indeed ( always hard to see from a picture) A Chihiros ( often used LED on this forum, not the brightest) for this size would be 55 W in LED's.


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Dolan said:


> I have had it for about 3 months now, made sure its properly cycled using a fishless cycle...I didn't add fish until 2 months after. Maybe that was a bit long,


Should be fine, planted tanks don't need cycling in quite the same way as non-planted tanks, so not having any ammonia addition for a while isn't a problem. 





Dolan said:


> The Amazon page says 11W. So it's probs 11W


That probably isn't enough light. 

I've had a standard Chihiros A series light for a couple of years and they seem quite good, and definitely bright enough. I like a reasonably bright light, but then I use floating plants to regulate the light level, and as an <"indication of when to feed the plants">.

cheers Darrel


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## Daneland

Dolan said:


> Can you recommend me some to buy?


Send me your address I will send you some floating plants free of charge.


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## Dolan

Daneland said:


> Send me your address I will send you some floating plants free of charge.



Thank you so much! That's incredibly nice of you

Sent you a PM


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## Keith GH

Dolan

That would be one of the best replies I have seen for a long time.

After all that what do you intend to do now and in the future.

Keith


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## Dolan

Keith GH said:


> That would be one of the best replies I have seen for a long time.



Yes this community is great!

Just bought this on Amazon:



 

Wish me luck!


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## Dolan

dw1305 said:


> That probably isn't enough light.





rebel said:


> Also that light at 15W seems to be very faint!!! Can you confirm the wattage?



Did some research, and it is 32 PAR:



Is that enough light?


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## Keith GH

Dolan

Have you cleaned the filter using the old tank water?
If you have any carbon in the filter please remove it as its not required at all.

Keith


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## rebel

The PAR value is a little surprising.... In theory it should be enough. I'd like to hear some more commentary from others though.


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## Halley

Keith GH said:


> Dolan
> 
> Have you cleaned the filter using the old tank water?
> If you have any carbon in the filter please remove it as its not required at all.
> 
> Keith



Is it ok to keep the carbon if you dose?


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## Dolan

Keith GH said:


> Have you cleaned the filter using the old tank water?



Nope, I am aware that disrupts the autotrophic bacteria which can kill fish



Keith GH said:


> If you have any carbon in the filter please remove it as its not required at all.



Nope, no carbon!



Halley said:


> Is it ok to keep the carbon if you dose?



I have read you can keep carbon, but it's counter productive because the carbon takes out the stuff u are dosing.


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## Edvet

How did you get to that PAR data, could you link the source?


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## AverageWhiteBloke

Edvet said:


> How did you get to that PAR data, could you link the source?



The guy in the video the OP linked took par readings @Edvet


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## Edvet

That was flat on the glas of a 29 gallon tank


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## Edvet

So in a larger tank and some distance to the surface could still be low.


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## Dolan

Edvet said:


> That was flat on the glas of a 29 gallon tank



No its 32 PAR. The flat on glass he also did, which he got a reading of 36 PAR.

Refer to the video at 1:28. You can see the PAR meter on the substrate

I don't know, maybe he measured it wrong. But he's Aquarium Co-Op, and I hear they are good


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## rebel

Curious to see whether anyone can grow any meaningful plants with this light as well. It's got me intrigued with it's low wattage!!!!


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## Dolan

rebel said:


> Curious to see whether anyone can grow any meaningful plants with this light as well. It's got me intrigued with it's low wattage!!!!



I will keep you all posted dont worry

By the way, what do you people think about adding soil underneath my substrate? Someone here mentioned that the substrate is too low, which is also another reason why I am thinking about it


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## Keith GH

Dolan

Re the substrate and all those Sword plants.

My advice is rather drastic but it will guarantee far better and healthier tank.
Start afresh only using a good quality Substrate and a good depth.   Only use half of those Swords as in the new set up the will grow big and fast with plenty of new young plants .

Carbon can be use after treating a tank with medications and removed a few days later..

Keith


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## Dolan

Daneland said:


> Send me your address I will send you some floating plants free of charge.



Just got them! Thanks once again


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## Dolan

6 Week update:

Algae problem is much much better with the addition of those floating plants and dosing. However the Amazon swords are still stunted. S. Repens are pretty much dead

I have been reading Walsted's "Ecology of a planted aquarium", and I think it must be because the root feeders are not getting enough nutrients because of my crappy substrate.

Thus, I am thinking of re-substrating the fish tank with soil.

What do you guys think?


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## rebel

Looking much better. What did you dose?

I think you are on the right track from now. Just do regular waterchanges (sucking out the muck) and attack the algae, clean the glass and the leaves (if needed cut them off) with algae constantly.

I can see plenty of diatoms that you can remove.

I would remove that heater/ rock and give it a good scrub.


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## Edvet

Rootfeeders is a misleading term. They can feed from the column more easy. Their very large rootsystem has more to do with anchoring the plant in their flooding habitat more then feeding through their roots.( and their natural habitat being realy nurrient poor)


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## tam

The new growth on the floaters looks pretty good, you want to sort through and take and brown/damaged sections out - you've got a lot with parts under the water instead of floating and they'll just rot. Save the good parts, discard the rest. It's probably just where you added them recently.

Syphon out all the mulm, around the plant bases and remove any damaged leaves. The old leaves won't grow/improve in condition, so just watch the new growth, if that stays healthy and looks good you are sorted.


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## Dolan

rebel said:


> Looking much better. What did you dose?



TNC Complete



Edvet said:


> Rootfeeders is a misleading term. They can feed from the column more easy



If that is so, then surely with my dosing, my swords should grow and not be stunted? Dosing is helping a lot with my floaters though! I am pretty convinced right now that some form of soil is necessary, ADA Aquasoil, garden soil or something.



tam said:


> Syphon out all the mulm, around the plant bases and remove any damaged leaves.



I deliberately do not siphon out mulm because I read that mulm is nutrients for the plants?


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## Edvet

Dolan said:


> I deliberately do not siphon out mulm because I read that mulm is nutrients for the plants


Leave it in a low tech, remove it in a high tech.


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## Edvet

Dolan said:


> my swords should grow and not be stunted


give them a bit of time


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## Barbara Turner

I changed things around a week ago and have a spare tank half full of plants.  There now all growing quickly in a low tech tank.

My advice would be to fill the tank up with lots of plants,  the faster-growing plants will help win the algae battle.

Your welcome to them free of charge.

If in a few months you decide you want something else I won't get upset if you throw them away. 

There all pretty bomb proof.


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## Konsa

Hi
The floating plants seem a bit battered  by the flow of your filter (hense the browning) Try to section them off with some fishing line and suction cups sothey out of  the area where the filter outlet is.Will fo more strong and healthy that way.
Regards Konsa


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## Dolan

Barbara Turner said:


> Your welcome to them free of charge.



That is very nice of you! It would be highly appreciated.

I will pay for postage

Will DM you


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## Lee iley

What is mulm? Is that just a build up of waste? 

Cheers lee


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## Barbara Turner

Lee iley said:


> What is mulm


Yes  the dark brown blahblahblahblah that builds up in the bottom of the tank,

 I'll get them posted today, should be with you tomorrow.


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## Lee iley

Barbara Turner said:


> Yes  the dark brown blahblahblahblah that builds up in the bottom of the tank,
> 
> I'll get them posted today, should be with you tomorrow.


Ah, I vacum mine up every week when I do the wc. Cheers


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## Dolan

Lee iley said:


> Ah, I vacum mine up every week when I do the wc. Cheers



I hear that mulm replenishes the soil in a heavily planted aquarium, so maybe it is better to leave the mulm in



Barbara Turner said:


> I'll get them posted today, should be with you tomorrow.



Thanks!


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## AverageWhiteBloke

Dolan said:


> I hear that mulm replenishes the soil in a heavily planted aquarium, so maybe it is better to leave the mulm in



Hmm not really, its just waste organic matter the same that collects in the filter. Far better out than in so syphoning off is the best bet. Certain substrates which have high cec values have the ability to absorb and store nutrients from the water column but this is a different matter. Inorganic nitrogen from fert salts is a good thing decomposing organic matter isn't.


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## foxfish

I think that Mulm is another word for disolved organic compound “ DOC”


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## Dolan

Here is an update for you all

First of all, thank you @Barbara Turner for the plants, they arrived well packaged

After some reading into Diana Walsted's book, and reading some advice from people in this thread, I have decided to go for a soiled tank. Literal garden soil.

I have also moved the spray bar low so it does not kill the floating plants. 

I decided to put the fish back into tank immediately because Diana's book said it will be ok if the tank is planted. 

Before:




 
After:


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## Barbara Turner

The plants look a bit bedraggled from being posted. I'm sure in a week or so they will settle down and hopefully start growing like crazy. 
Once everything settles down you might find you want to swap some of them for something that grows a little slower and requires less trimming. 

Personally I follow Tom Barr method on estimative index.. I'm not completely convinced by Diana method. Never understood how the results she got were as good as they were. 
Very different to the EI method I would guess most people on here follow. There is more info here if your interested. 
https://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.../what-you-need-to-know-about-ei-plant-feeding

After changing everything arround  Watch out for an ammonium and nitrite spike that might give the fish a hard time. Hopefully the bacteria in the filter will stabilise your ammonia. 

There is a good guide here. 
https://tropica.com/en/guide/get-the-right-start/tropica-90-days-app/


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## Dolan

Here is an update after 2 weeks

I will give the Diana Walsted method a good try and we will see the results. Estimative Index from what I have read is that its primarily for CO2 high tech tanks. This is a non-CO2 one. So EI-ing would be overkill for this tank IMO

No fish deaths yet. Probably because I am re-using the old filter, old gravel and old water!

Seems like after the die out of the plants, they appear to be re-growing. I added some Elodea densa to the tank too

Photos:


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## Edvet

Dolan said:


> Estimative Index from what I have read is that its primarily for CO2 high tech tanks


True but don't forget to feed the plants anyway. It can be low dose, just don't skip entirely. ( Darrel's "duckweed index" can help in which he uses floaters to see wether he needs to feed)


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## rubadudbdub

You were dosing tnc complete before the rescape.  I'd keep dosing that, at least once a week. The tank has newly been set up, the root systems will be developing.  So dosing the water column seems sensible.  Plus your floating plants will appreciate it.  If the floating plant growth becomes stunted then dose more frequently.

If memory serves then three times a week of TNC complete is equivalent to EI dosing.


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## Barbara Turner

Hi Dolan
How are you getting on?


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## Dolan

*7th Month Update*

Sorry for the late reply everyone

Seems very healthy, no algae at all!

I can't thank everyone enough on this forum, and especially @Barbara Turner for supplying the plants in the first place!


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## Barbara Turner

Great to hear that things are going better.


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## Mike Moran

Looks great. The new soil seems to have made all the difference. I’m sure the fish appreciate their lovely new home..congratulations!


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## Dolan

Some more updates as of Oct 2019!

It looks a bit overgrown, should I trim it?

No algae, no issues whatsoever, it's great!


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## GrowPod

I love this thread, really cool to see how all the help here has helped transform this tank!


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## Mike Moran

Tank is looking fantastic. Such a transformation from the beginning! Congratulations. It’s so cool how everyone helps you on this site, stops you being discouraged when you have a problem or might need some help.


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## MJQMJQ

Woah the diff.Great job


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## GrowPod

With regards to should you trim, I would say keep it if you like the look, if not trim it a bit.


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## Dolan

Mike Moran said:


> Tank is looking fantastic. Such a transformation from the beginning! Congratulations. It’s so cool how everyone helps you on this site, stops you being discouraged when you have a problem or might need some help.



I know! I am so grateful for this community

I appreciate the person who physically came to me to donated those plants to help me kick start this!


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## si walker

Awsome!


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## Sean Scapes

That is an incredible transformation.


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## azawaza

If I were a fish, a guppy, would I not wish to sashay with like-minded friends amongst such fine greenery?


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