# UG - Utricularia graminifolia



## JamesC (13 Jan 2008)

Seems people have been having problems with Utricularia graminifolia or UG so I thought I post my setup and parameters. Just over a month ago I decided to give it a go to see how I'd get on with it. I planted a little bit in my test tank tank. Most of what I had went into my main tank but something seems to take a fancy to it and eats any new growth  . Below is a pic I took tonight of how it looks now. Growth was very slow to start with but has now picked up and has started sending out runners. There is a new clump on the left which has started to grow away from the main clump. Originally it was much smaller, especially shorter, than this.

Tank is 25 litre with 22 Watts light
Injected CO2 with Rhinox 1000 diffuser
Dosing is my standard PMDD+PO4
Drop checker is green with a hint of yellow
Akadama substrate
No fish or shrimp

pH = 6.4
NO3 less than 10
PO4 measurement is undetectable on my test kit
KH ~3
GH =5-6
25 deg C






James


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## Dave Spencer (14 Jan 2008)

Hi James,

It`s still early days for your UG I know, but it looks a little leggy to me...well  compared to mine. I had to use 33W over 24l to keep it low. What a pain it is to plant. Keeping small clumps in the rock wool was the only way I could do it.

Mine is all in amongst some Marsilea, so it is not that easy to see. My Ammano shrimp absolutely shredded it, and I thought it had all gone, so I planted Marsilea instead. Lo and behold, what remnants of UG there were made a decent come back.

Is yours Tropica James? Secondly, where did you get it from, as I am considering getting some for my 120l rocky scape?

Mine is grown in:
33W over 24l
30ppm CO2
EI ferts
Some of it is in inert sand, and some in Aqua Soil

Despite all these parameters, I still find it relatively slow growing.

This pic is as good as it gets. I am not going in any closer as I have been fighting a losing battle with Spirogyra in this tank.  





Dave.

P.S. I like the look of the Akadama.


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## JamesC (14 Jan 2008)

Thanks for posting Dave. I was hoping others would post their successes as well. Looks like yours is growing well. Ideally I'd like more light than 22W, but it's only a test tank that I try different plants out in so it'll have to do.

Interesting you mentioned Amano shrimp. I've got Amano shrimp in my main tank and suspected them of being the culprits but never saw them eating it. Probably waited till I went to bed.

I brought a single pot from Expert Aquatics - http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Expert-Aquatics. Not sure the origin of their plants but the range they stock is exactly the same as Tropica's. They come in non-Tropica pots though. Quality seemed quite good but a little pricey IMO. Nice touch was a little note with the UG detailing how to plant.

Browsing other forums shows that many people have problems with UG. Dave, do you know your KH and GH values?

James


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## Moss Man (14 Jan 2008)

As I've heard so many people complaining about planting UG, when I setup my next tank I'll probably grow it emersed in the substrate before hand. I think it is one of those plants which isn't really meant to be aquatic, so many have great difficulties in growing it.


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## nry (14 Jan 2008)

Having a fine root system i feel it is a plant which prefers a fine substrate - for my plugs the ones which were planted the deepest in the substrate are the ones which are doing the best, the shoots coming off are staying mainly below the substrate whereas the others seem to send shoots over the gravel and these tend to suffer.


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## Dave Spencer (15 Jan 2008)

My KH and GH values are virtually identical to yours, James. I do a dd a small pinch of GH booster at water change time, though.

The Amanos used to pull up the UG blade by blade, and the water`s surface would be covered by the morning.

I would say mine is very healthy looking, but still a painfuly slow grower. i would like to know how Oliver Knott covered the entire substrate of a tank with it.

Dave.


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## Chris C (16 Jan 2008)

Utricularia graminifolia is a carnivorous bog plant, and may be the reason some people are having problems. To grow the plant terrestrially, it should be planted in 50% peat moss and 50% silver sand, which gives a very acid soil. Although the water table may often cover the plant, which is why i suspect it does so well as an aquatic, strictly it isnt at all. I would assume that in alkaline water this plant will not do well at all, and an abundance of nutrients probably isnt to its liking either. The very reason it has become carnivorous is to compensate for the lack of nutrients in the soil and make them up by eating bugs. You may be able to see the small nodules or traps on the roots which catch very small aquatic organisms (no harm to fry though). For many carnivorous plants, fertilizer or an excess of nutrients in the soil is certain death, as is anything other than very acid peat for substrate. 
Hope this helps.
Chris


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## Ed Seeley (16 Jan 2008)

Just been looking at the Tropica Page on Utricularia and they are pretty specific over their water parameters in case any of you haven't read that.  If you scroll down there's a paragraph on their recommended growing conditions.


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## nry (16 Jan 2008)

Funny - I recently dropped to half EI for my tank size and I'd say that the UG has perhaps benefited from this, it is looking healthier and has thrown off some of the (expected for a new tank) brown algae it started to attract.  Not quite given up on it yet


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## JamesC (9 May 2008)

Thought I'd update this thread and show how my UG has grown since I last posted.





Once it gets a hold it really starts to take off. Getting a bit thick now so am going to take a load out and plant in my main tank to see how it goes in there. Seems to like the lean water column dosing that I do and also the Akadama that I use as a substrate.

James


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## Steve Smith (9 May 2008)

Looks very good   Is that 2x11w Arcpods over the tank?  How do you prune it, just trim it short?


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## JamesC (9 May 2008)

Haven't pruned it yet. Not sure it'd take too kindly to being prunned with scissors. I'm going to pull it up and replant in small clumps and see how that goes.

Got 2x 11 watt lights on it. One is the light that came with the freebie PFK tank subscription offer and the other is an arcadia arcpod that I also got as a freebie with a PFK subscription offer. Done quite well from their subscription offers but then again I've been buying the mag since the mid '80's so they've done pretty well out of me as well.

Thanks
James


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## TDI-line (10 May 2008)

I've just bought 5 pots of UG, but thanks for this post as i will be keeping a good eye on it.


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## durtydurty (10 May 2008)

Thats amazing growth, I'm sure I have some of this in my tank in a sand substrate and its starting to get going but would love a nice thick mat like that in the foreground in my tank. Proper jealous now!


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## beeky (12 May 2008)

Does anyone know how it takes to Excel/easycarbo? I'm guessing it's not going to like it.


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## johnny70 (12 May 2008)

I have been wondering the same, I'm thinking of getting a pot to try in my shrimp tank and I will be using easycarbo

JOHNNY


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## ceg4048 (12 May 2008)

beeky said:
			
		

> Does anyone know how it takes to Excel/easycarbo? I'm guessing it's not going to like it.



I'd advise caution, especially for those who like to overdose Excel/easycarbo. I have strong correlation, but no proof of causality between heavy excel dosing and UG failure. Possibly James has a different experience?

Cheers,


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## JamesC (12 May 2008)

Never used excel or easycarbo on this tank so cannot comment either way I'm afraid.

James


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## johnny70 (12 May 2008)

Well soon find out, I have ordered 2 from AE this afternoon

JOHNNY


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## Themuleous (18 May 2008)

Its quite a bit taller than I had thought, not really a foreground plant.

Sam


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## LondonDragon (18 May 2008)

WOW that looks amazing James  maybe something to give a try in the future


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## Garuf (30 May 2008)

I know its rude but is there any chance of getting some UG from you james?


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## JamesC (30 May 2008)

Garuf said:
			
		

> I know its rude but is there any chance of getting some UG from you james?



There is but not now I'm afraid. I've just planted up my 4 footer with it to see how it does. Had to use a lot at once to give it a chance as my amano shrimp seem to eat it. I'll let you know when it's harvest time.

James


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## Garuf (30 May 2008)

Thanks, James. Just drop me a line when I can get some.


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## TDI-line (31 May 2008)

My 5 pots are doing awful, planted them out in a little clearing.

I think the amano's have stripped them down, but some of them are pretty big now, around 2"'s long.  

Oh well.


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## johnny70 (31 May 2008)

I have some coming from AE today, what's the best way of planting? do I leave some of the rockwool on like with HC or strip it right back to the roots?

Cheers
JOHNNY


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## JamesC (1 Jun 2008)

I always like to remove the rock wool but you have to be super careful doing this with UG. This is how I did it with my one pot of UG. If you aren't happy doing this then cut the rockwool and UG in quarters and plant that way, would be my recommendation.

James


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## johnny70 (1 Jun 2008)

Cheers James, will have a look when I plant, see how it looks before I decide

Thanks
JOHNNY


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## Garuf (4 Jul 2008)

How about these specs for ug: 
light 36watts
tank 22l 
co2 drop checker yellow
full EI dosing.
Do you think I should be okay?
I'm offering it 18 watts for 3 weeks to get a hold like tropica recommends then I'm going to up to the full 36. 
I should be okay right?


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## JamesC (4 Jul 2008)

With me it doesn't seem to do very well with a rich dosing regime such as EI. Think others have also said similar things. It comes from very nutrient poor waters which may explain why. I have it growing in Akadama which is near enough inert and a lean dosing method. Not having too much light to start with is a good idea.

Nearly got a full carpet across the whole of my four foot tank now and that's from a single pot a few months ago. Once it takes hold there's no stopping it.

James


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## Fred Dulley (5 Jul 2008)

It's interesting that UG doesnâ€™t favour nutrient rich water/conditions. The way I look at it, is that it's *almost *exactly the same as carnivorous plants that you would have in a vivarium. You use fruit flies to feed the plants and any use of fertilisers actually kills them.


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## Dave Spencer (15 Jul 2008)

JamesC said:
			
		

> With me it doesn't seem to do very well with a rich dosing regime such as EI.
> James



Interesting that, James. My UG looks fantastic and stays really low and looks lush and grassy. The only thing is that it is a painfully slow grower. I use EI, but find it interesting that it keeps the plants healthy, but very slow growing.

Dave.


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## Garuf (15 Jul 2008)

I was recommended EI to grow it which is odd. People seem to find that Co2 being high is more important than ferts being high.


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## JamesC (20 Aug 2008)

Last update from me on this. I recently have switched from using RO + tap water with a KH and GH of ~3-4 to spring water with a KH of 7 and GH of 13. This has resulted in my large mat of UG losing it's colour and also has started falling apart. I shall therefore be ditching the whole lot.

Possibly it doesn't like the harder water but also it could be that it didn't like the change.

James


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## LondonDragon (6 Jul 2011)

Raising this topic from the dead as some people were talking about UG at the ADC meet last Thursday, initially I thought it was Ed Seeley that did it, but it was James, just read the ropic, very useful if you are trying to grow this plant, I haven't seen other people on UKAPS growing this successfully, so there is a challenge there for you!


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## madlan (6 Jul 2011)

I bought 6 pots - 







was doing ok but then vanished. I suspect my Amano shrimps and Angels removed most of it... (I was using tap water too which is quite hard here). I started to turn yellow which appears to be common when kept in high KH water from what I've read across the net?

I've just ordered some more as I'm now using RO - I'm going to have to cover it somehow, any suggestions? (Reduced light and keep the shrimps\angels away for a few weeks)


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## madlan (18 Jul 2011)

Just had 5 more pots delivered. This time it's Tropica rather than aquafleur, I've read Tropicas strain is hardier?
I'm also cutting my tap water with RO (75% RO) which should hopefully result in some better results than last time. 

Any suggestions that might help improve its chances?


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## wearsbunnyslippers (18 Jul 2011)

i read somewhere that one guy who was also struggling to grow this, mixed some fish food in a little bowl of water and let it stand for a few days, then sucked it up with a syringe and squirted it directly onto the UG. the logic was, coz they are carnivorous that they will capture and digest the micro-organisms, but i have read elsewhere that only the terrestrial growth is carnivorous so who knows. apparently the ug that he was struggling to go thrived with this treatment, but it is all hearsay...


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## dw1305 (18 Jul 2011)

Hi all,
It is definitely best grown in wet sphagnum moss.





cheers Darrel


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## ghostsword (18 Jul 2011)

Thanks for sharing the photo. 

How do you sort out humidity? And no ferts, it will just get what it catches, right?


.


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## daniel19831123 (19 Jul 2011)

I just grown mine in filter floss with sunlight and got the same result.


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## ghostsword (19 Jul 2011)

Thanks, seems like a good plant for a small pot.  


.


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## madlan (20 Jul 2011)

I ordered a pot from Plantedtanks.co.uk to try again now I have soft acidic water. Thought I would try the tropica version as it appears much more compact and is apparently better adapted to aquatic life. Not sure if that was the best idea as it looks half dead compared to the Aquafleur variety I originally tried!







I got three pots instead of the single I ordered so maybe it's deteriorated. The five pots I had last week were thick and lush. This will probably die if submerged so I'll try them emersed and see if they recover.


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## Piece-of-fish (20 Jul 2011)

It is dead. You should ask for a refund.


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## ghostsword (20 Jul 2011)

Piece-of-fish said:
			
		

> It is dead. You should ask for a refund.


I very much doubt that those plants will recover. My advice would be request a refund.




.


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## Garuf (20 Jul 2011)

Agree'd with P o f, it's dead. 

The issue with this plant it turns out is that it's sensitive to ammonia, therefore when planted in a substrate like as it has a tendency to melt unless it's pre-cycled.


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## madlan (20 Jul 2011)

Hi Garuf,

I thought ammonia was a nutrient to plants?

Do you have any more info on that? It's the first I have heard. I've seen speculation that it requires a mature aquarium but this was put down to it feeding on appropriately sized organisms’ in\around the gravel that obviously takes time to develop.

The rock wool has shrunk quite a bit and the pots are covered in gravel so it does appear to have been kept semi planted before I received it.


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## Garuf (20 Jul 2011)

At present i don't as I'm sorta busy but I'll point you in the direction of the Barr post I'd read it in asap. I think the mature aquarium thing is more of a speculation than a proper observation, the plant taking nutrients from the water column where it's abundant sort of rules out it being for nourishment from tiny micro-fauna that at best are in a minuscule proportion compared to in the wild. 

Bladerwarts are sensitive to ammonia, just like how some plants are sensitive to glutaraldehyde (the active ingredient of excel et al).


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## dw1305 (21 Jul 2011)

Hi all,
They look awful and I would ask for a refund, but I'm pretty sure the yellowing is from lack of light. If you can put them in a tray of rain  water (just up to the top of the pot) and cover them with 1/2 a 2 litre coke bottle (so just like a little cold frame to keep the humidity in and better than a big plastic bag) and put them somewhere light, but without direct sunlight (a little back from a window or N facing windowsill) they should perk up fairly quickly, if they are going to recover.

Technical term is "Etiolation".
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etiolation>

cheers Darrel


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## ghostsword (21 Jul 2011)

It could be etiolation, but I very much doubt that they would develop that while in the post. 

I really like UG, an would love to try some, but one would need a single setup for it, cannot imagine any other plant to mix it with.


.


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## Garuf (21 Jul 2011)

You'd be surprised, Luis some plants are much less tolerant of it than others, blyxa springs instantly to mind.


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## ghostsword (21 Jul 2011)

Ah ok, been lucky with blixa, but I have it close to my co2 diffuser.

Tonina is one plant I have not kept alive, got to me very healthy but then just died. 

Will get a pot of UG then try it emersed. Very pretty plant, and Darell's picture looks great.


.


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## Garuf (21 Jul 2011)

Tonias are one of the few plants that _need_ soft water, not going to happen in London is it.


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## dw1305 (21 Jul 2011)

Hi all,


> It could be etiolation, but I very much doubt that they would develop that while in the post.


 No, I reckon that is at least 2 weeks in the dark. 

Nearly all insectivorous plants come from nitrogen poor environments, that is why they have to resort to getting animal protein for their N fix. Generally the problems you get  plants from resource poor environments is that they are evolved to be very efficient at "grabbing" cations and anions as they become available. If you then place them in a situation where these nutrients are available you get luxury uptake, which disrupts the organisms metabolism, and often leads to death. In terrestrial plants _Protea, Banksia_ etc. are a great example of this, they come from very phosphorus (P) poor soils and have huge root systems with mycorrhiza etc. if you put them in an environment with normal levels of P, it is rapidly toxic. I'm not sure with _Utricularia_ as it is a funny plant, even for an insectivorous plant, as all their "roots" and "leaves" are probably modified stems.

cheers Darrel


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## ghostsword (21 Jul 2011)

Thanks Darrel for the explanation.

So the plants would have been shipped like this already, unless they got lost on the post.






.


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## Frosties (22 Jul 2011)

I dont know if I am allowed to respond to this thread - so on here - I will advise I have been in contact with Alan last night when it was the first I heard of it and immediately offered a full refund.

The plant is far from standard quality and I will find out what happened. The one thing I will say is that when it was packed - I was advised that it looked substandard - so I suggested that they sent enough to make a decent order. In this instance - clearly I should have checked it myself.


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## madlan (22 Jul 2011)

I've planted them up as Darrel suggested, I don't think they stand a chance otherwise.

Sorry, didn’t mean any offence etc - I thought that may have been the case as three pots were sent rather than the one I ordered. All other plants were great, very sizable bunches (To the point of being excessively generous!) 

An apology and refund was offered after I contacted Tony.


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## Ian Holdich (22 Jul 2011)

i'm sure there's no offence as you didn't mention where you actually got them from. We now know though!


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## madlan (22 Jul 2011)

It's the second time I've ordered from them,  the main reason was the fact no one had a few rarer plants I was after. 

The plants are always great and cheaper than Tropica. I had over 300 litres to fill quickly with plants so saved quite a bit!


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## ghostsword (22 Jul 2011)

Yep, they are cheap, I buy often and refunds are always available if something is not good.

I would like to get some UG to play with, will have to get some from tropica.

How fast does it grow, emersed that is?


.


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## Westyggx (18 Apr 2012)

ghostsword said:
			
		

> Yep, they are cheap, I buy often and refunds are always available if something is not good.
> 
> I would like to get some UG to play with, will have to get some from tropica.
> 
> ...




Luis, did you ever try this emeresed?


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## Radik (18 Apr 2012)

Emersed is easy. Growing like grass. Does not require mysting in my experience just do not keep it on sun I was growing it on window and it is still there in original tropica pot for 2 months now and it increased in size.

Submersed is more difficult I noticed when not enough light they will release them self to the surface where they can put new tiny roots again.


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## Westyggx (18 Apr 2012)

Radik said:
			
		

> Emersed is easy. Growing like grass. Does not require mysting in my experience just do not keep it on sun I was growing it on window and it is still there in original tropica pot for 2 months now and it increased in size.
> 
> Submersed is more difficult I noticed when not enough light they will release them self to the surface where they can put new tiny roots again.



Hi Radik,

Thanks for the reply, so if i just place my pot or rockwool into the ADA Amazoia and leave it all should be well? Do i cover the glass with cling film to keep moisture?

Thanks


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## ghostsword (18 Apr 2012)

Westyggx said:
			
		

> ghostsword said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I got it emersed on the siting room. Not dying but not a weed either. 


___________________________
Luis 
@ghostsword


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## Radik (18 Apr 2012)

yes keep it covered I had it in original pot with that plastic bag so I just folded it over on the top with little air going in. It will grow on anyting I am not even dozing ferts just changing tap water.


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## Aquadream (18 Apr 2012)

Here is some of my UG pots. I do not cover it with anything. Just free air access, T5 light Amazonia Powder and RO water.


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## Quetzalcoatl (18 Apr 2012)

Do you sell those pots Aquadream? They look extremely healthy. I would love to have another crack at growing this. Will anchor it down this time though!


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## Aquadream (18 Apr 2012)

Quetzalcoatl said:
			
		

> Do you sell those pots Aquadream? They look extremely healthy. I would love to have another crack at growing this. Will anchor it down this time though!


The pots in the tank are for sale actually. Got 10 available. I had no more space in the hydroponics boxes so had to put them in the tank and they quickly started to blow up in size.
If you or anybody else what them can pm me any time.


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## darren636 (18 Apr 2012)

oh i think i want a portion for a bowl by the window....


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## ghostsword (18 Apr 2012)

Nice... Maybe I am not giving enough light..


___________________________
Luis 
@ghostsword


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## Aquadream (18 Apr 2012)

ghostsword said:
			
		

> Nice... Maybe I am not giving enough light..
> 
> 
> ___________________________
> ...


The light I use is much like the amount on my planted aquariums. Even emmersed UG can still go bust if the light is too much, because I grow it in a small room with limited nutrients and CO2. Not quite like it is in nature.


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## plantbrain (18 Apr 2012)

Garuf said:
			
		

> Tonias are one of the few plants that _need_ soft water, not going to happen in London is it.



I'm not sure about that, I have soft water today, but when I lived in Davis CA, we have very hard KH and GH', and the Gh is particularly vile due to 52ppm Mg++........I started cutting the Tap with 1/2 RO and things were fine after that.

But lower KH is better in all cases I can think of for plants.

Here's some Tonina I sold recently:

2 months ago:





Today:




Sold Monday:




UG has been very easy.




I cut sod pieces from this patch these days to sell.

Tonina brings is 50$ for the above and a 10cm x 5 cm patch of UG typically 20$. 
So tanks can make a profit and pay for themselves if well managed.


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## ghostsword (23 Apr 2012)

Aquadream said:
			
		

> ghostsword said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I am just giving the UG 4 hours of light a day, need to measure the par. Slow grower, but not dead. 


___________________________
Luis 
@ghostsword


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## Radik (23 Apr 2012)

UG do well low KH or around 4KH as well. It was growing to me in 12KH surprisingly well but now do better in softer water.
Tonina Fluitans is so far good on KH4 as well. So it is half RO/TAP for London.
Tonina sp Belem and Manaus, got from vivarium not so good yet but maybe will adapt, I've got different stems now from ukaps member which is already adapted to London/ro water so will see how this will grow.

I do give UG a around 70-80par of light 6 hours a day until it is pearling it grows best this way. Will post some photo in 2 weeks or so if all goes well


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## Aquadream (24 Apr 2012)

ghostsword said:
			
		

> I am just giving the UG 4 hours of light a day, need to measure the par. Slow grower, but not dead.
> 
> 
> ___________________________
> ...


4 hous is quite short time I think. I give 10 hours to all my plants in the tank and the hydroponics. In both cases I use approximately the same amount of light.


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## ghostsword (24 Apr 2012)

Thanks, will increase the lighting period.. will be interesting to see how it develops..


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## George Farmer (24 Apr 2012)

plantbrain said:
			
		

> But lower KH is better in all cases I can think of for plants.


Why is this exactly? I've suspected this myself but don't know why...


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## Garuf (24 Apr 2012)

Presumably it's the availability of N P K ions being more available to the plants rather than them affixing with the c/mg in the water or are they able to jump the barrier layer more effectively?


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## plantbrain (25 Apr 2012)

George Farmer said:
			
		

> plantbrain said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Likely has to do with uptake of CO2 and enzymatic efficiency. As the carbonate alkalinity increases, the efficacy seems to decline. I do not think this has anything to do with other nutrients though.

The growth of so called low KH soft water plants in high KH seems to mimic poor CO2, not N, P, K, Fe deficiencies.
If higher KH's blocked say N, or P, we should be able to add more or limit them in soft water tanks and illicit the same growth responses.

Only CO2 seems to do this with these plants.
I can take a plant and add poor cO2/not enough and get the same slow death/poor growth on say S "belem" in Soft low KH, say 1 degree....................as I can trying to grow it at 11 KH. I cannot do this with NO3, or PO4, or Fe.

When BOTH systems are enriched with non limiting CO2, then only the KH is the independent variable..........we still have CO2 like growth issues on this group of plants.

Other species are unaffected however, so it's selective. Most of these softer water species are poor competitors for CO2 and tend to have higher CO2 demands as well vs other plant species also. Without a labeling experiment using 14CO2 or something, it is tough to say where and what is going on with the CO2 uptake enzymes and intermediates.

No one has compared suspected soft water tropical plants we have trouble with growing at higher KH vs the low KH I am aware of using non limiting CO2 gas enrichment.

It's sort of highly specific question and not something botantist will study really since it's not a natural system and tropical rare aquatic plants are under the radar.


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