# How normal is it to have the odd fish die?



## FishBeast (20 May 2010)

Over the last while I have had the odd fish die seemingly randomly. One or two I can explain but I like to think that I keep a pretty well maintained tank but I occassionally have the odd fish die.

For example one of my dwarf cichlids looked sick and the next day was dead. I keep up with my water changes although I have been battling BGA. I have read that it can reduce oxygen levels in the tank to dangerous levels although I dont think that is why I have lossed the cichlid.


----------



## sanj (20 May 2010)

It happens, if you mean the odd fish now and then. There are many reasons beyond your maintenance that can kill them.


----------



## dw1305 (21 May 2010)

Hi all,
The only real way to find out if you are having an increased rate of fish deaths is to keep a log of all the fish you have, noting when you bought/bred them, where they came from, how often they've bred and eventually when they "shuffled off their mortal coil". 

I've been doing this and some very interesting data has resulted. I still have the original Otocinclus I bought (over 5 years old), my other 3 surviving (bought) Otocinclus were all bought in the same shop and are 3  & 4 years old (the shop is not even a specialist LFS and a very small shop, "Pet care" on Paul Street in Chippenham (Wilts.) SN15 1LJ, but the owner is a keen aquarist). I've bought four other Otocinclus, and all have died within a year, 2 in the first month post purchase. I also have 3 which are _c._ 2 years old bred in the tank (they were already adult sized when I first saw them).

I still have 1of the Black Neon Tetras from the same purchase as the Otocinclus, again over 5 years old. None of my Apistogramma cacatuoides have lived past 4 years old, and only 2 females have lived past 3. These are the only fish I've had where a "healthy fish" has died, almost always when the density of fish in the tank had risen, presumably causing stress and/or fighting.  

Of the fish I don't keep any longer, Clown Killies only lived about 18 months (but bred frequently during that time period), Marbled Hatchets over 2 but less than 3 yrs (same for Pencils), and some of the Cories I bred are still alive in their new home (and are over 8 ). It is possible that some of the Bloodfin Tetras are also this old. I've never managed to keep either Siamese Fighting Fish or Dwarf Sparkling Gourami longer than 18 months.

As a general rule, active small fish which breed frequently and at a young age don't live very long. My suspicion would be that if Otocinclus can live for 5 years, larger plecs will have potentially much longer lives. They have all the characteristics of  a long-lived organism (small clutch of large eggs, parental care, slow growth, sedentary life-style).

The only time I've ever had a lot of deaths in a short period was when a bought Apistogramma "steel-blue" carried _Camallanus_ worms through quarantine, and after a number of unexplained deaths I found out what had caused them and euthanasied all the fish in that tank. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## FishBeast (22 May 2010)

Thanks Darrel. Thats good advice. Because I mainly keep rainbow fish I get nervous sometimes that after all the time it takes to mature them I may lose them.


----------



## dw1305 (22 May 2010)

Hi all,
I think Rainbow fish are potentially quite long lived, with presumably the larger species Boesmans etc. living longest
cheers Darrel


----------



## chris1004 (23 May 2010)

Hi,

IMO a lot of the damage done to the fish is done before you get them home most of the time. Assuming the aquarist has a reasonable level of tank husbandry of course.

When you think about what the fish go through, especially if wild caught in the first instance, then its hardly surprising that the mortality rate can be relatively high in newly acquired stock both in the LFS and once you get them home. A lot of the damage can manifest itself some time down the line and naturally the life span of each species plays an integral role.

However by adopting best possible working practices at all times especially when it comes to your water quality then fatalities will be reduced to a minimum. IME once you have fish which are settled and established in your tank/s then unless you introduce new stock without effectively quarantining them first. Nearly all the problems that can occur will have poor water quality at the root source. Generally the only exceptions to this are accidents (i.e. fish getting trapped behind filter pipes, jumping out of the water. etc.) bullying and introducing 'nasties' with live food. So ensure the tank is 'safe', be carefull which fish you keep together, predominantly feed frozen / dry foodstuff and only using live food from trusted sources when conditioning fish to breed in isolated tanks.

Alternatively you could adopt the attitude that I hear / read most commonly. Namely the "don't worry they'll be fine brigade". This band of brotherhood can site many experiences of fish surviving and even breeding well in seemingly adverse conditions to back their theology that fish are not at all sensitive to their surroundings. When in actual fact all they are really doing is justifying inadequacies in tank husbandry whether they be due to time or financial constraints. Fortunately many fish do flourish even in poor conditions but if your serious about not wanting the occasional unexplained fish loss then get serious about your water quality. 

That's my advice anyway.

Regards, Chris.


----------



## dw1305 (23 May 2010)

Hi all,
I'd pretty much agree with Chris; comments, my only major difference is that I feed mainly live food. I'm lucky as I can either collect it locally (on the campus, in the garden or allotment) or culture it (Daphnia, Grindal, Micro & Red worms), so I don't actually buy any live food in. I got a phenomenal catch of mosquito larvae today and the fish had a feast and plenty of exercise.

I don't think it makes any difference to the fish which good quality food you feed, but I would put a word in for all three worm cultures, there really easy to culture and they cover nearly all sizes of fish. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## chris1004 (24 May 2010)

Hi,

I'd totally agree with Darrel in that live food is by far the more beneficial to the fish, but it can represent a chink in ones armor if your not 100% certain of obtaining a clean reliable source.

If however you know the source to be disease / parasite free then your fish will benefit greatly.

Its kind of a risk-reward thing really. When conditioning the fish for breeding the reward definately out ways the risk, at other times it may not.  

Regards, Chris.


----------



## sanj (25 May 2010)

Live food is fine if you can source healthy populations, but i would steer clear of bloodworms for Rainbowfish and also aim to give them a high vegetable content in thier diet. Healthy rainbows of the larger 4"plus variety should be living well over 5 years. They take a while to reach full maturity. 

When i first entered the hobby I used to keep a log of all fish and did that for a few years, but that was a long time ago. i do not feel it is necessary but can be useful.


----------



## dw1305 (26 May 2010)

Hi all,
I think most fish benefit from some vegetable or low protein, high roughage food, even fish like Discus are apparently detrivores for  a large part of the year, and my _Apistogramma _often have a go at the Otocinclus's cucumber.

I must admit I started feeding blood-worms long before I'd read they were bad for Malawi Cichlids etc. and I've never had any problem with them. I always feed live ones I've collected myself, so they aren't a major part of the fishes diet.

At this time of year if you put a bucket of rain-water (with a a cup full of grass clippings and a good handful of dried leaves in it) in the garden somewhere shady, it will produce mosquito larvae all through the summer and blood-worms through out the year.

The female Mosquitoes and Chironomid Midges need something to land on to lay their eggs, you can use Duckweed (as long as you remember to keep it well thinned out), I usually use a cork.

cheers Darrel


----------



## chris1004 (28 May 2010)

Hi,

I've always got cultures of wingless fruit flies on the go, there very easy to keep and to feed.

Mix 1 Weetabix (crunched up) with a desert spoon full of sugar and a small ammount of bakers yeast with some tank water into a runny paste consistency. 

Place in the bottom of a large jar and leave to stand for a few hours, then make a cardboard 'bridge' and secure in place by partially pushing into the mixture, this allows the fruit flies to leave the media bed and keep there feet dry when they want to.

The lid of the jar needs to be modified somewhat to allow air to flow in and out of the jar and keep the flies in. I cut a large hole out (doesn't need to be pretty) and glue gauze over the top finishing off the rim with a thick elastic band (also glued in place) to keep it tidy. Araldite can be spread thickly over the rough edges of the cut tin to both seal it to stop it rusting and make it safer to use.

Drop some flies in and leave them to do their thing. A couple of weeks later just shake out as many as you need straight onto the water surface as and when required. By having two jars on the go staggered a couple of weeks apart its easy to have a never ending supply of ready to go live food available, 100% guaranteed 'clean'.

IME all Anabantoids, live bearers and most Tetras love them once they get used to seeing them. In fact I wouldn't mind betting that any surface feeding fish would readily take them.

Regards, Chris.


----------



## dw1305 (28 May 2010)

Hi all,
Wingless fruit flies are a good option, I used to keep them (got them when I had Hatchets), but I don't now. I used to spent ages separating out the wild type (to keep the culture pure) used the same method you do for genetics, a quick whiff of ether and a paint brush. It was only after I stopped keeping them I was talking to a Frog keeper and I said what a pain it was keeping the culture pure and he said "why didn't you take the lid off and let them fly away?". At that moment I had the sudden realisation that sometimes a bit of common sense is a lot better than too much education.

I still culture the wild type (in the "Peely bin" in the glasshouse), these are much more difficult to feed as adults, but I only use the maggots. Only downside is separating the larvae and the medium is a bit messy.

cheers Darrel


----------



## chris1004 (29 May 2010)

Hi Darrel,

Never noticed a problem with them. They do have tiny little wings but they're not able to fly. I can't actually recall ever seeing one 'fly', jump a long way yes, often, but 'fly' no.

The thing is they are so dumb if they do escape from the water surface after feeding they go straight back to the lid of the jar if its placed nearby where they can be squished easily.

I've been refreshing the cultures from the original starter stock given to me by a friend for about 15 years now. 

Regards, Chris.


----------



## dw1305 (29 May 2010)

Hi all,
Chris it is only the winged wild type who can fly. I used to get them in the culture regularly, but it may be they got in as contaminants rather than by reversion (there were several other Fruit Fly cultures in the next door lab).

I think there is more than one wingless mutation so it maybe your version is more stable, I think mine were "vestigal 1" but I'd need to check.

cheers Darrel


----------



## chris1004 (29 May 2010)

Hi,

I have no idea what type mine are but I could send a starter culture to anyone who wants some, just pay the postage and make a small donation to this site. PM me if interested.

Regards, Chris.


----------



## sWozzAres (30 Jun 2010)

From my 6 original fish I bought some 6 years ago, I have 4 left, including 3 clown loaches and a denisonii barb .

One barb died soon after I bought him, he was never happy from day one, sitting in the water flow and getting emanciated over a period of 3 months. The other one got startled one night and jumped into the light fittings damaging his side, next day he got infected, lost swim bladder control and couldnt feed. I kept him alive for 6 weeks but had to subject him to the clove oil treatment since nothing I tried could fix him up.

Ive put other fish in the tank since and they have died for known reasons. Bala Shark jumped out, two mini puffers lasted no more than 3 days, and 3 tiger barbs moved from another "not well maintained" tank where their 3 other pals had already died, I suspect they were "on their way out" already after a year of stress being chased by a rainbow shark. One of them them did spawn in the new tank though!

Eventually you learn, be careful when they are new, reducing stress etc, dont have anything in the tank they can damage themselves on (infection follows), get the right fish for your tank (not puffers and bala shark), reduce stress (no rainbow sharks!) etc 

I had a few things happen in the old tank where disease would kill fish and I always put this down to not changing the water frequently. Touch wood, Ive not had any diseases in my current tank for 6 years and I put this down to regular water changes, minimizing the time you got your hands in the tank, making sure stuff like gravel cleaner, bucket and stuff gets dried out after use, using Melafix after every water change etc. Cycle properly and keep your plants growing to keep ammonia out of the tank. I also vary the fish diet, always got 3 or 4 different types of food to give them. Basically trying to minimize the amount of background bacteria that is in the tank and keep the fish healthy.

In short, I would say it is normal - but it shouldnt be.


----------

