# Expensive Lighting?



## Aqua sobriquet (17 Mar 2020)

There seems to be increasing numbers of folks succeeding in growing aquarium plants using inexpensive and easily available LED lights of one sort or another. I can’t help wondering if there’s going to be much of a future for some of the premium brand manufacturers unless they make them more attractive by cutting prices. I know there are always folks willing to pay a premium but for how much longer? I know some of them look very nice but can many folks really justify paying 10 times the price just because of the way it looks. I do realise that some options require a certain amount of DIY but many don’t. Just wondering what folks think. The hobby can be expensive without paying over the odds when you don’t need to.


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## Siege (17 Mar 2020)

a few thoughts - 

I think the demand will always be there and the products are beyond just about all diy or budget ones.

I liken it to any hobby. I can buy a fishing rod for £20 or I can spend thousands. You could even have posted this question on a fishing forum  Just an example but the theme runs through just about any hobby. 

A lot of it is maybe about the experience of the product. Similar to why people always want the new iPhone for example.

There is also the element of having and using the same product as the pros. Why does a 12 year old who is rubbish at football want the same pair of boots as Messi?

For many people diy is part of the fun of the hobby. That is part of their enjoyment.

Whatever,  I donot think it is a hobby that is limited by budget. There are so many products at each price point. Manufacturers spot a gap and fight over it.


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## dw1305 (17 Mar 2020)

Hi all, 





Aqua sobriquet said:


> using inexpensive and easily available LED lights of one sort or another. I can’t help wondering if there’s going to be much of a future for some of the premium brand manufacturers unless they make them more attractive by cutting prices


I think prices will carry on falling.  





Aqua sobriquet said:


> I know there are always folks willing to pay a premium but for how much longer?


 That is the question. My guess would be if you looked at the designer clothes market (or @Siege's fishing rods or Binoculars etc ) as a proportion of the total market that would give you some idea of how big the "designer light" market is.

cheers Darrel


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## Siege (17 Mar 2020)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, I think prices will carry on falling.   That is the question. My guess would be if you looked at the designer clothes market (or @Siege's fishing rods or Binoculars etc ) as a proportion of the total market that would give you some idea of how big the "designer light" market is.
> 
> cheers Darrel




Thinking about going into my local cycling shop, there are tonnes of bikes at £2,000 +, a few at £10,000. 
Now it is relative, I would call £2,000 high end.

Turning to the niche aquascaping part of the aquarium hobby. Not that many manufacturers. I can only think of 
A couple of budget names
1 mid level 
1 mid to high
and 2 of what I would class as high end

there are also the mass market aquarium light manufacturers that stick a ‘for plants’ sticker on the box and think they’ve covered the planted aquarium sector. These are donot designed for aquascaping tanks. Personally I think this is the unfair part of the market. Relying on the purchaser not doing their research.

Of course our hobby does benefit from the Chinese ebay budget range. Of them, there are millions!

Now, unsure of the point of my post! Just wanted to liken it to my local cycling shop and that hobby. In comparison we have far less high cost products to choose from!


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## dw1305 (17 Mar 2020)

Hi all, 





Siege said:


> Now, unsure of the point of my post!





Aqua sobriquet said:


> succeeding in growing aquarium plants using inexpensive and easily available LED lights of one sort or another


I think the point of it is if you can buy a 20W dimmable LED Cool (or daylight) white <"floodlight"> that grows plants perfectly adequately pretty cheaply, will people buy a light with similar plant growing properties (that might be more aesthetically pleasing and have better color rendition etc) for ten times the price?

I wouldn't, but I'm a cheapskate, have little interest in aesthetics, a financial controller with gimlet eyes (and a joint bank account) and no interest in designer labels.

cheers Darrel


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## Oldguy (17 Mar 2020)

dw1305 said:


> no interest in designer labels.



I have two 'LED proper tank lights' -  both budget. Two banks of LED spot lights, some white and some 'growlux' type, and some patio decking LEDs. They are controlled by budget electro-mechamical timers. This gives Dusk and Dawn; Shafts of Light, General Lighting and High Noon. I like DIY and not spending much money. Non of the fittings and controllers can be seen.

Plants grow, fish swim and I sit and enjoy and have some pocket money for other interests, not to mention house hold bills.


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## jaypeecee (17 Mar 2020)

Hi Folks,

I have always avoided designer labels. Ever since I was a kid in my teens when some lads would _have to_ wear Levi's jeans. I've never owned a pair of Levi's in my life and I don't see that changing any time soon! As someone who worked in (electronics) product development and manufacture for thirty years, I look at a product and know what it's worth.

JPC


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## Simon Cole (17 Mar 2020)

I've just seen the prices... and wow. I'm glad to be in the T5 camp on this one


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## PARAGUAY (18 Mar 2020)

I once mentioned on another forum possibly here about the speed at which aquarium specific LEDs had become the "go to" for planted tanks. James Findley mentioned ADA was not going the route and I think still using metal halide expensive run hot all the things we didn't want . Hey presto several months later ADA developed their own expensive range to match competitors. But in just a few years on suppliers dropped t8 especially t8 hoods and luminaires. T5s considered the replacement upgrade from t8s now are getting harder to obtain as more retailers drop them from their range. Ada and Kessil, Elos are all great lights and do the job but it's the balance of cost . T8s are good on on low tech tanks and as first light on high tech .T5s will grow anything if used right and a small powerhead or skimmer or basic floodlights will give the shimmer effect if that's what you want. Down to retailers and manufacturers a bit to quick to dismiss the basic flurescents IMO as said the cheap Chinese LEDs hit and miss


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## zozo (18 Mar 2020)

Siege said:


> Thinking about going into my local cycling shop, there are tonnes of bikes at £2,000 +, a few at £10,000.
> Now it is relative, I would call £2,000 high end.



High-End Cycling industry is all about weight... We call the high-end amateurs with a gest "The Gram Nerds" They are under the impression that a bike with less weight is the best bike and makes them ride faster. But from a technical and mechanical point of view it isn't, it's 100% identical just less weight and therefore less strong and above all less durable. More weight is simply more material thus stronger and more durable and safer to ride. In the end, the cyclist with the heavier bike is the stronger cyclist.

It's the world upside down, you get less but pay a lot more... You actually pay for less demand and development costs for getting the same product with less or lighter materials.

For a professional who depends on a split-second photo finish to make a name or not, it's a different story. But he's sponsored and rides only 1 tour and probably in multiple day tours every day on a different new but the same bike. Because of every severe bump, over a pothole in the road is a punishment for a high-end bike and makes it unsafer to ride and it can only take so much. We all have seen headsets and saddle pins break during professional bike tours. Hence i remember seeing a frame crack during a climb.


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## Ed Wiser (18 Mar 2020)

Expensive lighting will always have a market. People have different views on everything. With lighting there are control that inexpensive lights will not have. Expensive light will have better looking fixtures. Expensive lighting will be able to be repaired or even up graded.  This is a hobby at if someone wants to buy nice equipment there is nothing wrong with that. Just as if one wants to buy cheap equipment that is their decision.


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## zozo (18 Mar 2020)

Ed Wiser said:


> able to be repaired or even up graded.



Suppose you have a plan to launch your own product design in aquarium lighting. Then have a close look at the LED industry.. You find out, before you're from patent tot prototype,  you are already overdue regarding upgrade.

LED technique is developing faster than the marketing selling it.


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## mort (18 Mar 2020)

In the marine world this is a massive issue. There are so many arguments as to what the best lighting is and they tend to revolve around just a few high end lights. The truth of the matter is Chinese black boxes (basically a nickname for all lower end lights) will grow corals, maybe not as quickly or with the same colouring but they will grow.
We need to remember that the higher end lights are generally the ones who do all the advertising, whether by giving them to you tubers, shops or using influential people in the hobby, and this means they achieve the cult following. I was shocked that everyone always says what a sexy filter the ada has when to me it just looks like a pedal bin that someone has balanced a pump on.
Unfortunately a lot of the planted lights seem to be an after thought from manufacturers that are predominantly marine but wanted a slice of the freshwater action (ie aqua illumination and radion).

I myself still use aqua illumination sol leds which were first released in 2008 (I'm cheap like Darrel and only have them because customers dropped them in their tanks and the manufacturer didn't want them back, so I fixed them) . Since their invention the biggest competitor radion has had 6 different iterations of their led (they also came out a few years after) which all arrive with pomp and parade. I can still grow sps perfectly well with my lights as can those with the first generation radion and it seems the initial selling point for leds no longer applies (at least in the marine hobby), which was to lower running costs but today it's actually cheaper to run halides for most people.


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## Ed Wiser (18 Mar 2020)

zozo said:


> Suppose you have a plan to launch your own product design in aquarium lighting. Then have a close look at the LED industry.. You find out, before you're from patent tot prototype,  you are already overdue regarding upgrade.
> 
> LED technique is developing faster than the marketing selling it.



Well I come from the reefing world where this is all  going on. 

https://www.aquariumcomputer.com/usa/product-category/mitras-led-illumination/mitras-lx6/

I just spend time in the whole aquarium world. Since I started freshwater systems. I found that the whole freshwater equipment world is like 25 years behind saltwater.


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## Aqua sobriquet (18 Mar 2020)

As I said at the start this is about growing plants, not illuminating reef tanks that can require seemingly very high light levels. I’m guessing reef tank owners have probably fewer options than we do to use cheaper lighting?


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## Ed Wiser (18 Mar 2020)

mort said:


> In the marine world this is a massive issue. There are so many arguments as to what the best lighting is and they tend to revolve around just a few high end lights. The truth of the matter is Chinese black boxes (basically a nickname for all lower end lights) will grow corals, maybe not as quickly or with the same colouring but they will grow.
> We need to remember that the higher end lights are generally the ones who do all the advertising, whether by giving them to you tubers, shops or using influential people in the hobby, and this means they achieve the cult following. I was shocked that everyone always says what a sexy filter the ada has when to me it just looks like a pedal bin that someone has balanced a pump on.
> Unfortunately a lot of the planted lights seem to be an after thought from manufacturers that are predominantly marine but wanted a slice of the freshwater action (ie aqua illumination and radion).
> 
> I myself still use aqua illumination sol leds which were first released in 2008 (I'm cheap like Darrel and only have them because customers dropped them in their tanks and the manufacturer didn't want them back, so I fixed them) . Since their invention the biggest competitor radion has had 6 different iterations of their led (they also came out a few years after) which all arrive with pomp and parade. I can still grow sps perfectly well with my lights as can those with the first generation radion and it seems the initial selling point for leds no longer applies (at least in the marine hobby), which was to lower running costs but today it's actually cheaper to run halides for most people.



Mort I have a 1200 ADA it’s a super filter. I have had all the various canisters. I even know the SUNSUN USA distributor. 
As I said it’s a hobby an being retired now I just like buying the nice stuff. 
The GHL light I posted above have been around for years now. I don’t buy the china lights because they don’t last along time. I do lighting setup for my aquarium club so I spend a lot of time testing every type of light on the market. An have owned every light on the market.


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## Siege (18 Mar 2020)

There are simply so many strands


Aqua sobriquet said:


> As I said at the start this is about growing plants, not illuminating reef tanks that can require seemingly very high light levels. I’m guessing reef tank owners have probably fewer options than we do to use cheaper lighting?




I wish it was more like the reef scene. It’ll push the high end manufacturers even further, bring prices down and people will be more aware of specialist lighting.


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## Witcher (18 Mar 2020)

Suitable for your tank, cheap or fashionable - pick only two and... that's it.


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## dw1305 (18 Mar 2020)

Hi all,





mort said:


> what a sexy filter the ada has when to me it just looks like a pedal bin that someone has balanced a pump on.


That is as truth, it is back to Clive's (@ceg4048) immortal description of a canister  filter as, fundamentally, a <"_pump in a bucket_">. I actually like the simplicity and robustness of  the ADA filter design (if not particularly the aesthetics) with the Iwaki pump and stainless steel clips etc., but the price........





mort said:


> Since their invention the biggest competitor radion has had 6 different iterations of their led (they also came out a few years after) which all arrive with pomp and parade


It is built in obsolescence. I'm pretty sure the way forward is a fitting where you can change the individual modular components (lamps, drivers, dimmers) rather than needing to re-solder a new LED or throw away the entire fitting. 

cheers Darrel


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## Ed Wiser (18 Mar 2020)

Aqua sobriquet said:


> As I said at the start this is about growing plants, not illuminating reef tanks that can require seemingly very high light levels. I’m guessing reef tank owners have probably fewer options than we do to use cheaper lighting?



I reef tank can do well with T5’s lighting or MH.  But a lot of people like the slimmer design of LED lighting my wife included.  I would love a set of solar RGB lights but the lack of control over the intensity is a problem. The same issue with Twinstar lights no control over the lighting. Adding a dimmer inline is just 1980’s way of doing this.


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## Aqua sobriquet (18 Mar 2020)

I’m still running the 12W COB LED spot light I got on eBay for £3.28. It’s only a 37L Nano but you could always add more if needed.

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/led-bulbs.58762/#post-574372


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## Simon Cole (19 Mar 2020)

Back to the original question, will premium prices remain achievable to LED manufacturers.
Well to be honest, I do not see many routes for innovation left open. It is already quite possible to get dimmable, programmable, spectrum variable, and smart LED devices at almost any intensity.
However, with such a large market for inferior products, there is really no incentive for a manufacturer to compete in the middle. Almost anything can be sold to new hobbyists. I do not see prices coming down. 
Aquariums are as much a luxury as having the nicest TV couch and decor in your house. Price has no limit when it comes to home. If you have just spent £10k on your kitchen, £5k on a nice carpet, Laura Ashley wallpaper and designer furniture - you look for a designer tank and lighting. This is exactly what I do. 
But our preference was not typical, we didn't like the sharpness of LED lighting, whereas the natural luminescence and warmth of T5 lighting, which varies according to each tube you choose - was something that made our room sing.
I can understand entirely why the premium market exists - but this is not a technological question. Design and fashion will be the biggest areas of product innovation in the future.


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## zozo (19 Mar 2020)

Back in the day when the CD player and Videotape recorder was popular household equipment we had a similar dilemma. When these products first launched it also went with a fast pace through a development cycle. Then what could be afforded and what to buy? The 1200 dollar Bang & Olufson or a 200 dollar unbranded knock off with the same features.

My brother always liked and was proud to have the B&O or other fancy stuff. I guess as long as it looks good and was expensive enough it was good enough for him. Nothing wrong with that. He was also always very fond of quality and durability and looks.

I'm more the kind of guy that says "Never read beauty magazines, they only make you feel ugly".

And always bought the cheaper knock off players/recorders for the very same reason as i see today's aquarium LED lights.

Since the development is running so fast than what good is a high-end product that will last you many years? Simply put it next to each other price-wise and from a technical development viewpoint.

$ 1200 B&O quality last you 10 years and the $200 knock off with the same features will last you 2 years. In a year time, the B&O is technically equally obsolete as its knock off. But you still have 9 years to go with that expensive but obsolete product. Compared with that knock off, i can sell it after 2 years or trash it if broken and buy a new cheap $200 knock off with the latest features and be fully up to date again. In 10 years time i did spend $1000 and was up to date every 2 years with the latest technology. While dear brother still was proudly enjoying his already 8 years obsolete genuine $1200 B&O. It still looked good but performed like an oldtimer.

It's a matter of perspective!?

Who wants to be pretty, has to suffer...


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## Aqua sobriquet (19 Mar 2020)

If I had deep pockets I could easily have paid £400 for a light for my Nano. I don’t think it would make my plants grow any better. I’ve just bought a £9.99 security type light to try out at some point, until then I’ll continue with the £3.28 lamps.


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## mort (19 Mar 2020)

Aqua sobriquet said:


> As I said at the start this is about growing plants, not illuminating reef tanks that can require seemingly very high light levels. I’m guessing reef tank owners have probably fewer options than we do to use cheaper lighting?



I'm not sure that's necessarily true. Most reefers won't go to a furniture shop and buy a cheap led but the market is flooded with cheap entry level lights from China and there are also plenty of really undemanding corals that don't need that much light at all (to the point that you could keep them far easier than quite a lot of the red stem plants).
The biggest thing for reefs is everyone wants the blue spectrum which isn't easy to find without dedicated lights.


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## mort (19 Mar 2020)

Ed Wiser said:


> Mort I have a 1200 ADA it’s a super filter. I have had all the various canisters. I even know the SUNSUN USA distributor.
> As I said it’s a hobby an being retired now I just like buying the nice stuff.
> The GHL light I posted above have been around for years now. I don’t buy the china lights because they don’t last along time. I do lighting setup for my aquarium club so I spend a lot of time testing every type of light on the market. An have owned every light on the market.



I never begrudge anything that others love. I know my tastes are a little weird compared to others and I don't mind the unaesthetic option because I find beauty in nature not man made things.
I tend to buy things that I know will last and if that means they are top of the range then I'll pay for it.


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## mort (19 Mar 2020)

Siege said:


> There are simply so many strands
> 
> 
> 
> I wish it was more like the reef scene. It’ll push the high end manufacturers even further, bring prices down and people will be more aware of specialist lighting.



Unfortunately all I've seen from the reef scene is manufacturers inflating the price of the units and when the others see what they are getting they bump up their price as well.
For the average shop the planted scene is still a limited market and whilst I see it at the forefront of appreciation for nature and progress, I simply don't think there is enough demand yet to premote the development of higher end products. Hopefully as the hobby really progresses this will change.


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## Ed Wiser (19 Mar 2020)

Each person looks at things differently. 
The freshwater hobby has a very different view of equipment. 
Because of this the freshwater hobby is still getting equipment sold to the hobby that has limited features. That are way behind the saltwater side of the hobby. 
The thinking that prices will go down for high end equipment is like thinking BMW will start selling cheaper cars. 
The equipment market is segmented just like any other product.  It is up to hobbyist to buy products they want. If people are satisfied with less features then that is what will be provided.


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## mort (19 Mar 2020)

dw1305 said:


> It is built in obsolescence. I'm pretty sure the way forward is a fitting where you can change the individual modular components (lamps, drivers, dimmers) rather than needing to re-solder a new LED or throw away the entire fitting.



The radion and ai units have had built in upgradebility since the first generations but this has always been at a cost that's not realistically much cheaper than buying a new unit. Hopefully as people become more aware of the need to "make do and mend" it will force them to consider this option further but perhaps as I'm a little cynical, this throw away society, just doesn't ask for that.


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## Aqua sobriquet (19 Mar 2020)

I don’t think prices will go down on high end equipment, I think some of them will go out of business when more people realise they don’t actually need to pay so much. Freshwater is most definitely not behind saltwater as far as I’m concerned, we just don’t need the same type of equipment luckily.


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## Wookii (20 Mar 2020)

Premium brands will always charge a premium, and certain sections of consumers will always pay it. The nature of the product, the state of the technology, or even the comparison of specifications and performance is largely irrelevant. 

This is the case with almost every single thing we buy, be it a steak, a beer or bottle of wine, a car, a holiday, even toilet paper and pasta (when you can actually get hold of either!). Literally almost every single thing we can buy has premium priced versions, mid-priced versions, and budget priced versions, and yet each almost always deliver the exact same form and functionality with small variances in quality (real or perceived). 

This has always been the case, and forever will be the case. I wouldn't expect aquarium lighting to be any different in this regard than any other product, irrespective of technological advances, or mass production economies of scale.


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## zozo (20 Mar 2020)

Wookii said:


> be it a steak, a beer or bottle of wine



Indeed, we all have Butter and Milk and butter is butter and milk is milk.. Both are strictly regulated and can't be tampered with.
But we have Grass Butter, Gold Butter, Silver Butter, Farmers Butter and even Bio Butter etc. etc.. Same goes for Milk.
And all are 100% identical if it wasn't it simply couldn't be sold as butter or milk.

Some are double the price than others... People don't care, who can afford it buys the most expensive one... And why not if it makes you feel good or even more superior to spend more on a fancy label then this is worth something too.


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