# Dosing a low tech 70L (more like 50L with hardscape) help?



## Emyr (6 Jun 2012)

Im in need of a bit of assistance on deciding what, and how often to dose my new 70L (more like 50L with hardscape inside)

Here is the journal for it.
http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=20982

Using a 18W 6500K bulb directly above the tank with RO water. Going to be mainly mosses and Java ferns etc, not too many plants. I had thought about using a 15W LED bar with a reduced intensity. I thought I would use Tropica plant nutrition and nutrition+. Do I need to dose both? and weekly at water changes? Could someone give me guidance as to how much to add? Thanks.


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## CeeJay (7 Jun 2012)

*Re: Dosing a low tech 70L (more like 50L with hardscape) hel*

Hi Emyr

If you're going to keep the light low and not adding CO2, I would dose your Tropica stuff once a week. This will be ample for a planting scheme like you suggest in your journal.
Tropica's recommended dose is 5ml per 50l per week, however when I ran a heavily planted low tech tank for 3 years, I found this was too low for the plant mass that I had, after adjusting upwards I hit the sweet spot and the tank just plodded along nicely.
The Tropica TPN does not contain any N or P. The Tropica TPN+ does. Now you have both, I would run with 75% TPN+ and 25% TPN, if nothing else just to use it up.
You can also reduce the amount of water you change at each water change as everything runs a lot slower and there is not so much waste to get rid of. So you certainly won't need to do 50% water changes.
FYI, the low tech I ran, ran for 3 years and never got any water changes (controversial with some, I know    ), except for when I had to move the tank for a reflooring project, so one water change in 3 years, fish and plants were fine for the duration. In fact I still have most of the fish   . That's what I call low maintenance   . 
Others swear by smaller weekly water changes.
At the end of the day you need to decide how much time you want to dedicate to your tank, but in your situation, missing the odd water change will not be too much of a problem.


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## Emyr (17 Jun 2012)

*Re: Dosing a low tech 70L (more like 50L with hardscape) hel*

Thanks Chris. I will start off by dosing once a week then and assess it from there. 
How did you come to find the sweet spot dosing amount? What happened to signal that you had got it right and weren't adding to much? 
I like the sounds of plodding along nicely, exactly what Im looking for! 
75% and 25% of what amount measurements? :? I have no wish to use it up to quickly as I am buying the nutrients for this tank.
I will reduce the amount of water I change to 25% then and see how it goes, it may not be necessary every week, we shall see once its running, exactly.


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## hotweldfire (17 Jun 2012)

*Re: Dosing a low tech 70L (more like 50L with hardscape) hel*

Re TPN vs TPN+, Paulo tells me you should use both as apparently the trace elements are different in both. 

I'm using equal amounts in my P@H 27l low tech nano. I was dosing 1ml TPN and 1ml TPN+ on Sundays (after small water change) then again on Wednesdays and tank was doing brilliantly. Slow but healthy growth and no algae. But that was with mainly mosses and a few fine stems. Recently I have added a lot of crypts and suddenly I'm having problems. Getting holes on new growth and algae on hardscape. Most tellingly my frogbit has loads of holes in it.

I'm now doubling the dose. So 1ml of each Sunday, Monday, Wednesday, Thursday. Will see how it goes.


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## Emyr (17 Jun 2012)

*Re: Dosing a low tech 70L (more like 50L with hardscape) hel*

From what I understand TPN is trace elements and TPN+ is purely Nitrogen and Phosphorus and so surely both are required. However, I have seen tanks which look really impressive that are only dosed with the TPN+. 

Thats really useful, thanks 'hotweldfire'
So your now dosing 4ml a week of both TPN AND TPN+ in a 27L tank. If you were dosing only 1ml originally then Tropica's estimation of 5ml per 50L isn't to far off for only a few plants but obviously depends on your plant density. Based on what your dosing a rough estimation of what I will have to dose is around 10ml+ per week then, needs to be just over double of what you are dosing in a 27L for a 60L.


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## CeeJay (18 Jun 2012)

*Re: Dosing a low tech 70L (more like 50L with hardscape) hel*

Hi all


			
				Emyr said:
			
		

> How did you come to find the sweet spot dosing amount? What happened to signal that you had got it right and weren't adding to much?


 You will find too much is never a problem if you're not keeping sensitive fish. 
What indicated I wasn't dosing enough was an outbreak of BGA   .



			
				hotweldfire said:
			
		

> Re TPN vs TPN+, Paulo tells me you should use both as apparently the trace elements are different in both.


 I think you'll find this is incorrect, check here, (first two sentences below the dotted box).
TPN vs TPN+



			
				Emyr said:
			
		

> From what I understand TPN is trace elements and TPN+ is purely Nitrogen and Phosphorus and so surely both are required.


 The above link should clear this up.



			
				Emyr said:
			
		

> However, I have seen tanks which look really impressive that are only dosed with the TPN+.


 That's because, as the link above states, TPN+ contains Macros and Trace


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## Emyr (18 Jun 2012)

*Re: Dosing a low tech 70L (more like 50L with hardscape) hel*



			
				CeeJay said:
			
		

> You will find too much is never a problem if you're not keeping sensitive fish.
> What indicated I wasn't dosing enough was an outbreak of BGA   .



Why do all these sites such as the green machine claim that 'An excess however can lead to sudden blooms of algae' then? It makes sense that to much is not really a problem, especially if water changes are being done but a lot of places contradict that. 



			
				CeeJay said:
			
		

> I would run with 75% TPN+ and 25% TPN



Chris, what did you mean by this? Can you elaborate. 

So is it really necessary to add both TPN and TPN+ seems like if I'm going to dose twice a week (Sunday and Wednesday) that only TPN+ is needed???

Thanks for the help with this one.


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## CeeJay (19 Jun 2012)

*Re: Dosing a low tech 70L (more like 50L with hardscape) hel*

Hi Emyr



			
				Emyr said:
			
		

> Why do all these sites such as the green machine claim that 'An excess however can lead to sudden blooms of algae' then?


An excess of ferts will never lead to an algae bloom on it's own (that's the Matrix talking). There needs to be a trigger of some sort, like too much light, ammonia spike, dirty tank or filters etc.
I have first hand experience of this. One time I was about to strip down a scape but I thought I would carry out an experiment before I did, just to see what would happen. I dosed double the EI values   . The tank done so well I continued to run it for another 9 months  . Plant growth went mental and it didn't seem to bother the fish, and the shrimp carried on breeding, and there wasn't a drop of algae in sight  .
This did become a seriously high maintenance tank though, it seemed like I was up to my armpits in water all the time, carrying out trimming on a very regular basis, along with the usual water changes and filter maintenance.



			
				Emyr said:
			
		

> Chris, what did you mean by this? Can you elaborate.


I meant, suppose you decide that you need to dose 40ml per week (keeping the sums simple), it would mean dose 30ml of the TPN+ and 10ml TPN, if that makes sense. Just so you use up the TPN, otherwise it's just going to sit in the cupboard.
You can run a tank on TPN+ alone, I've done it myself   
In fact I am currently running one of my CO2 injected tanks using James' DIY TPN+(3) found here,  James' All in One, near the bottom of the page.
It's just as good, only about 30x cheaper


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