# Still have algae...too much light still?



## Bertie (27 Aug 2013)

Hi,
I am still getting some algae, even though I have had one tube blocked for 2 1/2 weeks. I am not getting massive amounts but it does make some plants look a bit messy...mainly the Echinodorus.

I have a Rio 180 with Eheim Pro 3 250 and two NuWave 1.6 powerheads running both at 3/4 speed (approx 1200lph each) 2 T5 45w colour tubes, with one tube blocked off and on for 6hrs per day.

CO2 is on 2hrs 20mins before lights on and off 2hrs before lights off.
I am using a UP Inline Atomizer and watching the bubbles, the co2 bubbles are definitely reaching everywhere.

My ph readings today are; 7.6 1 hour before co2 on.
										 7.2 1 hour after co2 comes on.
										 6.8 At lights on.
										 6.8 1 hour after lights on
										 6.8 2 hours after lights on
										 6.8 3 hours after lights on
										 6.8 At lights off.
My tank IS near a window (Only place for it) but does not get direct sunlight but it does receive a fair amount of ambient light. Starting this morning I am pulling the blinds down (slatted blinds) until lights on to see if that will make a difference.

The only other thing I can think of is changing over to an overtank system where I can actually switch one light off and also with lower kw tubes and more distance between tank and lights?

I certainly cannot up the co2 more as my fish have certainly had enough by lights off

Any thoughts please?


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## ceg4048 (27 Aug 2013)

Hi mate,
			You need to identify the algae. Please check James' Planted Tank - Algae Guide for identification.

Cheers,


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## Bertie (27 Aug 2013)

I cannot work out which it is....here is a photo! http://i.imgur.com/QZWlvsO.jpg


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## ceg4048 (27 Aug 2013)

I can't work that out either. Is it a brown coating? Does it wipe off? If so then it's most likely diatoms. Try a 3 day blackout if that's the case.

Cheers,


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## Bertie (27 Aug 2013)

Hi Clive,
It is brown yes but it does not wipe off at all??  I forgot to mention that I dose EI and am dosing 7ml of Liquid Carbon to try and sort it but nothing seems to have an affect!
Is it still worth doing a blackout?
Thanks for your help.


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## ceg4048 (27 Aug 2013)

OK, if it doesn't wipe off then it is likely GSA, which is caused by any combination of poor CO2 and poor PO4. Try doubling your PO4 and see if that works.

Cheers,


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## Bertie (27 Aug 2013)

ok thanks for that clive will start with tomorrows dosing.

Once again thanks for your help.


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## ceg4048 (27 Aug 2013)

Go ahead and remove the affected leaves immediately. They will never get better.

Cheers,


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## Bertie (27 Aug 2013)

Thanks again...will do exactly that!


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## Bertie (4 Sep 2013)

Hi,
I should have asked, but how long before I see a real effect of the extra po4....2 or 3 weeks? I am still removing the odd leaf that I must have previously missed, but it does appear that I am still getting small amounts of GSA.


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## AshRolls (4 Sep 2013)

Hi Bertie.

I am also running a Rio180 with the T5's. I also run with one tube completely blocked off with an upside down reflector, but with a shorter photoperiod of 4.5 hours. However I do not use injected co2 (only liquid co2). The tank is stable (ish!) with this level of lighting so you should be fine considering you are injecting (assuming you have a good setup for flow around the tank)

I would give it a bit longer to settle down and keep up with your maintenance and water changes.


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## ceg4048 (4 Sep 2013)

When you make a nutrient dosing change, the interval until a noticeable change depends on a few things, such as how much the change was. For minor to middling it can take about 3 weeks to see a response. For large changes it can happen in a few days. So if you were, for example not dosing at all and then started dosing EI it might take less than a weak. I've read where some boffin spilled the entire contents of their PO4 dosing container into the tank and then saw a marked improvement in less than 48 hours. So if you want to see a quick change then dose massive amounts.

Cheers,


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## Bertie (5 Sep 2013)

Thanks Clive...I am prepared to wait


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## Bertie (14 Sep 2013)

Well, I am in my third week of double dosing PO4, which according to the calculator on James Planted Tank is just over 4ppm. To be honest this is starting to really p**s me off now.
I even installed another nuwave 1.6 circ pump which means I have three now. 

I did try a full length spraybar along the back some months ago, but the wife was dead against it as she said the grey spraybar and the circ pumps were too much in your face, and made it look ugly and insisted that I put the spraybar etc back on the left wall.

I am now pruning away affected leaves every other day or so at the moment,and will soon have nothing left to prune  The only plants that do not seem affected are my red lotus tiger lillies.

Looking at my bubble movement the co2 is going all around the tank. Although my DC in the corner that gets least, is a lime green.

I cannot increase further, as my fish cannot tolerate it. I do not know whether Rainbow fish have less tolerance of co2 than other fish but they are the ones that it seems to affect more. I have tried different timings etc but I appear to have the optimum that the fish will tolerate.

I am coming to the conclusion that it must be my lighting although a 2 1/2 week period with one tube blocked made not difference at all. 

If I was sure that it would work I would purchase a slightly lower wattage system, such as a 2 x 39w luminaire which apart from being slightly less wattage would be further away from the tank water. But if it was not to work then "her indoors" would not be happy with me "wasting" more money. 

I am beginning to think that maybe I am too old or stupid to get this right, certainly the wife is fed up with my moanings. I do not think that it helps with me sitting right next to the tank and able to see every little change.

I am not sure of my next step.


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## ceg4048 (14 Sep 2013)

Bertie said:


> I am beginning to think that maybe I am too old or stupid to get this right, certainly the wife is fed up with my moanings. I do not think that it helps with me sitting right next to the tank and able to see every little change.


Hello,
	   Please be logical and rational. If you are too old or stupid, how would that fit statistically with the minions of young geniuses who are presently struggling with algae....just like you. I guess that makes you a genius. So just get over it.

This is the stuff off Legend that really curries my goat. Check this out:



Bertie said:


> I did try a full length spraybar along the back some months ago, but the wife was dead against it as she said the grey spraybar and the circ pumps were too much in your face, and made it look ugly and insisted that I put the spraybar etc back on the left wall.


Bert, this is science, but it doesn't have to be rocket science. I blame the wife 100% for this failure. Her meddling possibly has caused disaster.

Bert, bring her to the terminal so she can read the following:

++++++++++
MEMO TO WIFE:
Hello Bert's Wife, Please do not interfere with the current troubleshooting procedures.
When you troubleshoot incorrectly, due to arbitrary parameters, the result is that you shoot yourself in the foot.

Therefore, kindly desist and allow Bert to mount the spraybars in the correct orientation. It is unclear if flow/distribution is the fault, or whether it can be solved in this manner, but it must be attempted.

If you do not like the look of the spraybar then try.....not....looking.....at it until such time as the current dilemma is resolved.
END OF MEMO
+++++++++

Cheers,


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## Samjpikey (14 Sep 2013)

Lmao hahaha  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sa80mark (14 Sep 2013)

We really need to get a ceg fanclub on the go


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## arhino (15 Sep 2013)

Hi Birtie
Can you upload a picture of your whole tank, it would be interesting to see how it looks.


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## Bertie (15 Sep 2013)

Hi Clive,
Thanks for the help. It has given the wife something to think about and she is thinking of letting me  put the spray bar along the back again, when I am discharged from the hospital! .
At the moment the doctors are trying to work out how I received so many injuries just sitting chatting to my wife.


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## John S (15 Sep 2013)

Give the spraybar a decent go Bertie. If it solved your problems then may be an acrylic one which will not be as noticeable. Good luck


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## Bertie (15 Sep 2013)

I have got my diy spraybar out of storage ready to go. The holes are not very straight although I have another "blank" I am having immense trouble getting a straight line for the holes :-S never was any good and diy


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## Ady34 (15 Sep 2013)

Bertie said:


> At the moment the doctors are trying to work out how I received so many injuries just sitting chatting to my wife.


 

Perhaps politley suggest that you wont notice the spraybar so much when there is a vibrant palette of green and red foliage to distract the eye 
Are you still carrying out multiple water changes whilst fighting the algae?.....still closing the blinds?, still running only 1 light tube?
You seem very commited to solving the problem Bertie, keep going mate, youll crack it 
Good luck Bertie.


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## Bertie (15 Sep 2013)

Thanks Ady yes all of the above....I am trying my hardest as the other alternative I fear is splashing out for a Luminaire for slightly more control of the lighting and if I bought one and it did not work I fear I would have an "extended stay in hospital"


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## Bertie (15 Sep 2013)

Well, I have now put the spraybar along the back wall, with much mutterings from the wife. 
I told her she would have to put up with it or I would withhold certain rights!! Now I do not know whether she sighed with horror or gratefulness. 
I will give this 4 or 5 weeks and then if it makes a difference I will get some acrylic.


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## Bertie (15 Sep 2013)

I would like to thank Clive for convincing my wife to allow me to put the spraybar on the rear of the tank.
She did see the funny side 
Just wait now to see if it works ok!!


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## ceg4048 (15 Sep 2013)

Kindly extend our gratitude for her cooperation.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, our hero's next task is to ensure smooth even flow across the long axis of the tank. Hopefully, the flow rate is the sufficient 10X tank volume per hour? Have a look at the videos in the thread Eheim 2260 - Custom Intake & Spray Bar | UK Aquatic Plant Society

Also, remind us again, how are you dissolving the gas? Is it via inline device? Have you performed the pH checks throughout the day?

Cheers,


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## Bertie (16 Sep 2013)

Hi Clive,
Thanks again. I am dissolving the co2 via up inline atomizer and I had grandchildren visit for most of the day but will continue with ph readings as from tomorrow.
The flow "appears" to be smooth and even and I am using a eheim pro 3 and three equal distant (just under the spraybar) nuwave 1.6 circ pumps, also facing the front glass.


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## LondonDragon (18 Sep 2013)

Bertie said:


> I do not know whether Rainbow fish have less tolerance of co2 than other fish but they are the ones that it seems to affect more.


They do indeed have a smaller CO2 tolerance as I found when I had them, the solution for me was to top up with liquid carbon and that resolved the issue.


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## Bertie (18 Sep 2013)

Ah right thanks Paulo,
Since I moved the spray bar along the back of the tank and managed to get more surface movement I have been able to up my co2 without them showing any distress.
At the moment they seem to be tolerating it a lot better and will up it slightly again tomorrow. The dwarf and parkinsons rainbows were affected mostly but they seem ok with it now I have more surface movement.


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## Bertie (23 Sep 2013)

Well it has been 8 days since I moved the spraybar along the back wall.
I have had to increase the co2 quite a lot which I think is due to the substantially increased surface movement.
I have lost two fish during my tweaking of the co2, probably due to stress,  I need to tweak it a bit more but will wait a few days.
The algae is showing no sign of disappearing any time soon.
As a lot of the plants appear quite "messy" now, I am even thinking about removing all plants and re-planting with new ones, but that would be throwing good money after bad unless I can solve these problems. I keep removing leaves but I am reducing my plant structure bit by bit and soon I fear there will not be much left.
My wife, says she cannot see anything wrong with the tank, but she does sit quite a bit further away, and she is looking without her glasses on!  I could do that but all I would see is a big blurry square shaped blob. 
I am now concerned that I may "tweak" the co2 too much and finish off the fish as well. They are not showing signs of distress just yet, but they are higher in the water this morning.
I will just keep trying till I beat this nonsense!


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## ceg4048 (23 Sep 2013)

We haven't seen the pH readings. We'll need that data to make a proper assessment.

Cheers,


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## Bertie (23 Sep 2013)

Hi Clive,
Sorry I forgot about them doh!!  So much going on at the moment.
I will take some readings during the day tomorrow and post them here tomorrow evening.


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## Bertie (24 Sep 2013)

Hi,
Here are my PH readings.
I must make clear that the 7ph readings could be 6.8 as I am finding it difficult to tell the two colours apart and I have ordered a ph pen which will be here in the next day or so.
10am..........ph 7.8
11am 1 hr after CO2 switched on.......7.2
12pm Lights on....................................7 or 6.8
1pm......................................................7 or 6.8
2pm......................................................7 or 6.8
3pm......................................................7 or 6.8
4pm......................................................7 or 6.8
5pm CO2 switched off.........................7 or 6.8


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## ceg4048 (24 Sep 2013)

Hi Bertie,
			 OK, thanks for the data. That looks good unless your KH is low. If your KH is less than about 4-5 then you'd want to drive the pH dow some more with a slight injection increase. The Pen is a good idea. It really should be standard equipment. You should always make very minor changes to the injection rate when you make the adjustments. A degree or two is the best as it will minimize the stress

If you have the spraybar now mounted across the back, and if you are following the 10X rule then you should be OK. It takes a few weeks to get improvements. Would be nice to see a photo of the installation if possible...

Cheers,


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## Bertie (24 Sep 2013)

Hi Clive,
Thanks for that. I am posting a photo but please excuse the naff background (put it there when I never intended to have plants) but cannot remove it until I can move the tank.
At the moment the plants are diminished and look a mess, but here is the photo
.


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## ceg4048 (24 Sep 2013)

Hmmmm...I'm gonna have to agree with the wife on this one mate, those plants look pretty nice to me.

You know, we've issued 2 week bans for people who show backgrounds like that. Could you just reverse the paper so we see the blank side of the paper instead of...is that Count Dracula's castle on the left? Creepy.....

Try moving the two outboard pumps a little closer to the center. For example, the one on the left can be placed just the other side of the heater tube. The reason is that the flow pattern from the pump is conical, so as it spreads out you get interference from the side walls of the tank. Play with that distance and look at the leaves to see if the sway in the breeze a bit more.

Cheers,


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## GHNelson (24 Sep 2013)

Bertie....looks as though you have new growth on some of those plants.
Most plants we purchase are in the emmersed grown form.
So it does take time for some plants to transform to its new underwater environment.... remove leaves that are struggling to change.
Top stem plants and replant the new growth...discard the bottom.
Remove Cryptocoryne leaves that are damaged or unsightly....they will have new leaves in a few weeks time.
hoggie


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## John S (24 Sep 2013)

Bertie it looks like you are winning the battle. I wouldn't rip those plants out, just do what Hoggie says and what you have been doing.


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## Bertie (25 Sep 2013)

Hi All,
Thanks for all your help and encouragement. It may look messy to me, as I do sit right next to the tank,in fact I can touch it from my chair quite easily.
My wife says that if I do not look at it I will not notice  and does not know why I am moaning.
I will move the pumps Clive thanks for the advice.
Maybe I am being impatient and just want everything to be "spot on" to soon.


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## plantbrain (25 Sep 2013)

That's a boat load of current.

Havign been to where Rainbows are from, I would likely place all the flow on one end of the tank, hide the equipment with driftwood or rock, or some plants in the front field a view, this or a circular flow pattern would suit them very well.
They like good high flow, but low pressure(same deal with reef flow patterns). I'd add more Crypts. They would do well and fill in the bare spots.


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## Bertie (2 Oct 2013)

*I Just cannot get this right!!! *
The algae is still there and still appearing on other leaves.
I am 99.9% certain it has something to do with co2 and I just cannot get it right. I have been injecting co2 for about 6mths now, and I have not been able to adjust for optimum.
Yet again, I have had it settled for a few days and today, yet again, the fish are showing signs of distress and are at the top of the tank. I know it does not really mean much, but my drop checker is at lime green, but not that light in colour.
I was keeping an eye on ph today but at 1.30pm I had to turn the co2 down so did not check after that until just now. I will take a full day tomorrow but as far as it goes here are todays readings.
Before co2.................7.6
1hr before lights on....7.1
Noon..........................6.9
1pm...........................6.8
3.15pm......................6.7 And these figures just look wrong!
Now I do not know whether high alkalinity can cause a problem or not but according to my Water Company ours is 321 mgHco3/l
But I think my main problem is that I cannot seem to match co2 to lights on to co2 off.
The only other thing I can think of is that my fish appear to be ultra sensitive to co2 (maybe they are just winding me up ) and I am already adding 4ml of Carbon to try and help the plants. I did at one stage dose about 7ml to help with getting the algae under control but that did not work either!
May be I am not really capable, even with all the wonderful help on this forum!


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## ceg4048 (2 Oct 2013)

Hi Bertie,
I've lost track of how much flow rating you have there with the three pumps and the filter. What is the total and what is the tank volume? With an alkalinity that high, you may not need to drive the pH that low. In fact, the DC should be yellow with that amount of CO2, so it looks like somehow you are off-gassing the CO2. The surface should ripple but should not be broken such as when bubbles burst. Also, you were using an Up Atomizer, right, however I don't see any mist in that photo you showed, so that seems a bit puzzling as well.

Cheers,


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## John S (2 Oct 2013)

ceg4048 said:


> Hi Bertie,
> I've lost track of how much flow rating you have there with the three pumps and the filter. What is the total and what is the tank volume? With an alkalinity that high, you may not need to drive the pH that low. In fact, the DC should be yellow with that amount of CO2, so it looks like somehow you are off-gassing the CO2. The surface should ripple but should not be broken such as when bubbles burst. Also, you were using an Up Atomizer, right, however I don't see any mist in that photo you showed, so that seems a bit puzzling as well.
> 
> Cheers,


 
Clive, Where do you think the PH should be?


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## Bertie (2 Oct 2013)

Hi Clive,
Yes I am using a UP Atomizer.
My tank is 180 Litres.
I have an Eheim Pro 3 rated at 900lph and the 3 NuWave pumps are rated 800 - 1600 lph and I have them at prob half way so about 1000lph each which would make the rating about 3900 lph although it does not appear to be a massive current. 
The surface is rippling well but there does not appear to be any surface breaks. There are thousands of tiny buubles in the water but they do not seem to want to show on photo. When the co2 is on, the underneath of the surface gets covered in co2 bubbles as well.
I have the spraybar just under the surface and facing horizontally facing the front glass.
Thanks


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## ceg4048 (3 Oct 2013)

John S said:


> Clive, Where do you think the PH should be?


Well, 321 ppm HCO3 is a fairly high alkalinity. The simple conversion of 1dKH= 17.8 ppm HCO3 means that the KH equivalent is about 18 dKH. That's a lot of resistance to pH change, so dropping the pH by 1 unit in 18 KH water requires loads more acid than dropping the pH by 1 unit in 4 KH water, for example.

So a 0.5 unit drop in that water should be fine, It means that there is plenty of CO2, and that's why the fish start to gag as the pH is driven lower later during the day, because the CO2 at that point is over-driven. That part is easy. What's baffling is that the plants continue to suffer CO2 shortfall even though the flow appears to be really good.

So now I want to look at the distribution, because that's the only thing left, assuming that the lighting is not over-the-top.

I think the injection rate is not too low and can be lowered to reduce fish suffering hypercapnia.

We need to play with the pump location and output.

Bert, can you try moving the 3 pumps _above_ the spraybar, increasing their output and take another set of readings?
We leave it like that for a few days and then, if no joy, we try moving the pumps to one of the side walls and turning the flow up as plantbrain mentioned. But do not panic, or lose patience. As I told you before, CO2 is a very tricky business. Each tank has a riddle that must be solved.

Cheers,


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## Bertie (3 Oct 2013)

Hi Clive,
That will mean I have to significantly drop the spraybar as the pumps will need water to operate? I will have to add some more tubing to allow the spraybar to drop that low. My lighting by the way is 2 x 45w T5's.
One other thing Clive....I have looked and the co2 bubbles do slide down the front glass and head back towards the back glass!
Thanks for your help.


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## ceg4048 (3 Oct 2013)

Bert, what is the distance from the bulbs to the substrate approximately?

OK, that seems like too much modification. Nix that idea. Can you increase their outputs to see if that has an effect?
If the mist is headed in the right direction then there shouldn't be a problem, but try increasing the flow a little.

Cheers,


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## Bertie (3 Oct 2013)

Hi Clive,
The distance from the tubes to substrate is 38cm.....I will increase the pumps output to at least 3/4 and I am doing a 50% water change this morning and will do a full day ph reading with the increased pump output.


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## John S (3 Oct 2013)

ceg4048 said:


> Well, 321 ppm HCO3 is a fairly high alkalinity. The simple conversion of 1dKH= 17.8 ppm HCO3 means that the KH equivalent is about 18 dKH. That's a lot of resistance to pH change, so dropping the pH by 1 unit in 18 KH water requires loads more acid than dropping the pH by 1 unit in 4 KH water, for example.
> 
> So a 0.5 unit drop in that water should be fine, It means that there is plenty of CO2, and that's why the fish start to gag as the pH is driven lower later during the day, because the CO2 at that point is over-driven. That part is easy. What's baffling is that the plants continue to suffer CO2 shortfall even though the flow appears to be really good.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks Clive. I'm asking as my water will bet the same as Berties. So just to check my understating, in this case, we are looking for a 0.5 PH drop before lights?


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## foxfish (3 Oct 2013)

Hi Bert, I thought you were only using one bulb at the moment?


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## Bertie (3 Oct 2013)

foxfish said:


> Hi Bert, I thought you were only using one bulb at the moment?


 
I was fox for 6 weeks or more, but it was making no difference whatsoever so been on two for about a week at 6hrs duration.....Nothing I seem to do makes a difference. I am going to increase my pump output as Clive suggests and I have already doubled my PO4. Will take more ph readings throughout the day.


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## foxfish (3 Oct 2013)

Sorry to here about all you concerns Bert, the tank looks ok from the picture!
So your pants are growing but you have some algae?
It seems to me from you info that you have enough C02 going in & you cant increase the amount anyway because you fish will suffer so it seems to me that reducing your light should stop the algae. The point is if you were getting algae with one light switching to two wont help!!
I have had difficult tanks in the past too, it is very frustrating when things don't work, you are not the only one on the forum having problems though.
In my case it is normally about flow due to hardscape - wood rocks etc.  I have had to eject so much C02 on some tanks & then compensate with loads of surface movement, that it just became impractical to carry on with the tank!
It is so difficult to pinpoint your problem from afar, you seem to have all the basic components in place but not quite configured perfectly.
It is a fact though, that with less light you need less C02 but, even then you need the right flow to feed it to the plants, if you saw no change with one light then perhaps it is the flow?


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## Bertie (3 Oct 2013)

Hi Fox,
I thought at first that doubling my PO4 would help but not at the mo.
The thing is,that although the algae is still there and growing on new growth (the wife cannot see it by the way she is one arm chair further away) It has not "increased" any more with two lights if you get my meaning.
It is not horrendous like some tanks I have seen but I find it unattractive and annoying.  I have said to the wife that I thought I needed an overtank lighting system to have "more control" but she is yet to be convinced that the expense is worth it unless I can prove that it will stop this nonsense!  So I cannot win that one.


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## Bertie (3 Oct 2013)

Just had to turn down one of the pumps as I now have a foreground plant floating around the tank in minute pieces............and I have just done a 50% water change!


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## foxfish (3 Oct 2013)

foxfish said:


> Sorry to here about all you concerns Bert, the tank looks ok from the picture!
> So your pants are growing but you have some algae?
> ?


 
LOL bloody Iphone is to small.... I meant to write PLANTS not PANTS lol
Try & take some more detailed picture Bert....


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## ian_m (3 Oct 2013)

I still have a feeling that 2 x 54W (reflectors ?) over 180litre is bordering on the high'ish side. I have 50W over 180litres and not suffered any green algae at all (ok slight green tinge on glass at substrate level when starting up). At start up I ran for a month or two, short light on time (4 hours) and no reflectors until the tank "settled down".

Now run 2 x 25W with reflectors for 9hours and no green algae, slight BBA on fittings, but none on plants.

Try putting darkened plastic between the lights and tank. Some people have stretched black tights over lights and reflector to lower light level.


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## Bertie (3 Oct 2013)

ian_m said:


> I still have a feeling that 2 x 54W (reflectors ?) over 180litre is bordering on the high'ish side. I have 50W over 180litres and not suffered any green algae at all (ok slight green tinge on glass at substrate level when starting up). At start up I ran for a month or two, short light on time (4 hours) and no reflectors until the tank "settled down".


Hi Ian,
I am in fact running 2 x 45w without reflectors...I did have it running for over 6 weeks with a tube blocked off with not a noticeable difference to the algae. I have only been back running for a week with 2 lights and the algae has not increased, it just has not decreased either.
I think it would be better with an overtank system running 2 x 39w but cannot convince the wife of that! 
May be if Clive suggested it she would listen......after all she did the last time he told her off


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## roadmaster (3 Oct 2013)

I am wondering if the algae is all that bad. Can't see much algae in photo,color look's good on plant's,CO2 appear's to be at maximum for present fauna,plenty of flow,nutrient's are being provided per EI.?
I might be tempted to do as Tom (Plantbrain) suggested, and add several more crypt plant's,  and wait to see what two or three week's bring's under present condition's.
We know that six week's of  one bulb brought no changes for worse or better,and ditto for a week with both bulb's.
Maybe more plant's will make thing's more difficult for algae you are seeing, without any further adjustment's,stress.
If you feel that two 39 watt bulb's to replace the 45 watt are something you want to try,,then maybe you can purchase the 39 watt bulb's to fit current fixture?
Just my two cent's.
I'm feelin ya! and is these kind of thread's that give me pause to re-consider the gas ,knowing my tendency for outburst's that have in the past sent cat's,dog's,neighbor's , runnin for cover.


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## Bertie (3 Oct 2013)

I have to adjust co2 as it is affecting the fish too much because of my water having high alkalinity. I have added new plants this week but over the last 6 months I have in actual fact spent a fortune on plants only to lose them.
I have new problems but will post this evening when I have a more clear picture.


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## ian_m (3 Oct 2013)

Is your water from a well ? Read somewhere of someone having horrendous algae issues and he was using well water. Quick sterilise of water and neutralise (and even UV) before use and not algae issue any more.


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## ian_m (3 Oct 2013)




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## Bertie (3 Oct 2013)

ian_m said:


> Is your water from a well ? Read somewhere of someone having horrendous algae issues and he was using well water. Quick sterilise of water and neutralise (and even UV) before use and not algae issue any more.


 
Hi Ian,
No, our water is from affinity and in our area I think 100% comes from aquafers.(spelling?) which I would think is the reason for our water being very hard and with high alkalinity. I have got a TMC UV unit but have not used it since I started with live plants because of the reduction in flow that it would cause and the interference that it would cause to the chelated trace mixture.


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## Bertie (3 Oct 2013)

Right the ph seems to have settled now although I will have to turn it off soon as the odd one or two fish are at the surface now.
I have adjusted the pumps, and after rescuing my micranthemum after it decided to uproot and spread itself around
My readings are as follows and it does not seem quite right.
Before co2.........................................................7.4
1 hour after co2 on and 1 hr before lights on....7.1
Lights on............................................................7.0
Lights on plus 1hr..............................................6.9
Lights on plus 2hrs............................................6.8
Lights on plus 3hrs............................................6.8
Lights on plus 4hrs and co2 off.........................6.8

So do I need to turn the co2 on earlier? Also I have just noticed today but have heard it on regular basis...a regular burping sound but today I took notice.
What is happening is on a regular basis the last hole on the spraybar is pushing out excess larger bubbles which I assume is co2. Why it is doing this and how to solve the problem I have no idea.

My wife has also agreed that, if it would be of benefit,. I can get an external filter with 2000 lph (but only a cheapo APS one).
She has also agreed to an overtank system at 2 x 39w T5 if it would be of benefit (but only a cheapo APS one.
So would these two changes be of benefit, or of little use?


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## John S (3 Oct 2013)

Is your atomiser on the inlet or outlet of the filter?


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## Bertie (3 Oct 2013)

John S said:


> Is your atomiser on the inlet or outlet of the filter?


 
outlet


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## ceg4048 (3 Oct 2013)

John S said:


> Thanks Clive. I'm asking as my water will bet the same as Berties. So just to check my understating, in this case, we are looking for a 0.5 PH drop before lights?


Hi John,
		   Yeah, that's a good target, but it isn't written in stone. A o.6 or 0.7 might be necessary if your lighting is really high.

Cheers,


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## Marcel G (3 Oct 2013)

Hi John,

I didn't have time to read through all the thread, but one thing to consider about CO2 is that its concentration in the water relates very closely with aeration. Try to look at my measurings here. As you can see from the graph #3, if you have not enough aeration (surface ripple), then your CO2 can slowly increase throughout the whole photoperiod. So for stable (constant) CO2 level during whole photoperiod it's essential to ensure good aeration (wheather via surface rippling or wet/dry filter). Otherwise your will not be able to keep constant CO2 level (which could be part of your problem with algae). I don't say it's your case, but you can take it into account when looking for the problem solution.

Marcel


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## terry82517 (3 Oct 2013)

What is happening is on a regular basis the last hole on the spraybar is pushing out excess larger bubbles which I assume is co2. Why it is doing this and how to solve the problem I have no idea.


Hi Bertie, I had this EXACT same problem last week, the last hole was squirting out large co2 bubbles every minute or so making a annoying squeaking noise. I was also having problems getting my co2 rite, was injecting more but not getting any more ph drop and odd drop checker colours ..... It was just all over the shop and confusing.
Thought it could be the up inline blocked, gave it a good clean, no difference. 
What I ended up doing is when the gas is on, using the needle valve, turn the gas complete off, then turn it back up slowly over a few mins say.
This stopped the squirting completely, and now I'm getting much smaller co2 bubbles in the tank, and need lot slower bubble count to get the same result as when the bubble counter was going crazy.
It seems like adding to much pressure to the up inle makes it drive bigger bubble through it and it need to to 'reset' by pushing gas through it and upping the pressure SLOWLY. Been fine ever since.
Hope is helps you too. Cheers mate


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## Pinkmummy79 (4 Oct 2013)

Hi Bertie, we started our tanks about the same time, we've both had similar issues with regs, inconsistent bubble counts, dodgy non return valves and some algae0
Just for comparison, mine is 260 litres and bow fronted, I have twin 39w t5 fixed lighting with reflectors removed, I've been through the same as you with loss of plants, keep spending money on New stuff and keep wondering what to do next.
Now I've not cured mine completely but I think I'm not far off, what I've done is I have 2 1500 lph JBL filters now, full length spray bar and cO2 is now split between these, I also have a single circ pump, the same newave as you have.
My drop checkers are yellow at lights on, my fish seem fine but flow isn't right yet in the corners. My main difference between your 180 seems to be my lighting is less and although fixed, it's 51 cm from the top of the substrate, I found my biggest improvement was when both filters were added and then cO2 to both, it's not right but 90% better, like you, my remaining algae is small but bugs me just as much as I've been trying for most of the year to sort things and I'm so close I can't quit now, c'mon mate, we can look for a good filter second hand if needs be and crack this eh

Sent from my LT30p using Tapatalk 4


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## Bertie (4 Oct 2013)

Well I think, having thunk about it ,that the release of co2 build up from the last hole in the spray bar, may be due to the end stop being two inches further on from the last hole therefore causing a build up of co2 at the end?
I will have to shorten that end.
I am starting the co2 15 mins earlier today to see if the water can have a stable ph by lights on.
I still cannot make my mind up whether a new filter and lighting system would help or indeed hinder.
I will continue with ph readings today.


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## ian_m (4 Oct 2013)

When I extended my spray bar I drilled a 2mm hole right at the end of the extended bar to stop CO2/gas build up.


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## Bertie (4 Oct 2013)

ian_m said:


> When I extended my spray bar I drilled a 2mm hole right at the end of the extended bar to stop CO2/gas build up.


 
Hi Ian,
That is what I have done (almost) I had a spare long diy spraybar and I drilled it so the hole is right next to the end cap so will see how that goes today.
I suspect that as it is a different spraybar I may have to fiddle a bit to get the flow right, although it is looking pretty good.
If I do get another filter I will have to do it all over again as the attachments, hoses etc are bigger on the other one but have not made my mind up about that yet.


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## terry82517 (4 Oct 2013)

Did turning co2 down and up like in my post last night make any difference  Bertie?


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## Bertie (4 Oct 2013)

terry82517 said:


> Did turning co2 down and up like in my post last night make any difference Bertie?


 
Hi Terry,
Sorry no I didn't.
What I did do after thinking about the problem, asI had another long tube, I made another long spraybar. When I drilled the holes, I made the last one just at the end of the pipe so there was not a 2" length for co2 to accumulate. Fitted it this morning and fingers crossed at the moment it is not doing it. Thanks for the suggestion though. If it occurs again I will try it.


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## Bertie (4 Oct 2013)

Well the circ pumps are still working well today. The ph readings for today are as follows:
9.30 am co2 on....................................7.6
11am....................................................7.2
Noon...Lights On..................................7.0
1pm......................................................7.0
2pm......................................................7.0
3pm......................................................7.0
4pm......................................................6.9
5pm and co2 Off..................................6.9	   All fish do not appear distressed in any way.

Is this going to be ok with the drop in ph over the last 2hrs? if not how will I be able to adjust?
I will keep doing ph readings for the next day or so.


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## John S (4 Oct 2013)

I think if we go by what Clive said earlier in the thread about 0.6-7 PH drop for lights on then this looks good.

Do you dose liquid carbon? It might speed up getting rid of the algae.


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## Bertie (4 Oct 2013)

John S said:


> Do you dose liquid carbon? It might speed up getting rid of the algae.


Hi,
Yes I dose 4ml daily. I was at one time dosing about 7ml but seemed to have little effect on the algae.


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## Bertie (8 Oct 2013)

Well I get my APS 2000EF today some time and will fit it over the next few days although I have my doubts whether it will make a difference. I have two of my circ pumps just about 100% full on that will be 2 x 1600 lph and the middle one on about 3/4. I have not done ph today but will start again when I fit the new filter.
I have changed quite a few plants over the last day or so as there was not much left on some to prune the affected leaves and still have a plant left to look at.
I still have algae coming on new growth and my red tiger lily has holes appearing on two of the youngest leaves and to be honest these started before increasing the pumps. I am posting a few pics of the affected plant leaves. I have some on my Java fern as well but like everything else the camera battery has run out! I am not sure what algae this is although I  have doubled the P04 dose.


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## Bertie (8 Oct 2013)

Just a couple more.


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## Bertie (9 Oct 2013)

I have just finished fitting the 2000EF Filter.
The increased flow is quite noticeable and I am running the co2 directly into the inflow pipe as it would be a bit of a job connecting to the UP Inline Atomizer as the hose on this filter is 25/18. I will start my ph readings tomorrow.


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## Pinkmummy79 (9 Oct 2013)

Hope it improves things Bertie

Sent from my LT30p using Tapatalk 4


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## Bertie (10 Oct 2013)

Well it has all come to a stop at the moment. I have left the lights off as my Inline Atomizer is not working properly with my new filter. I have ordered a Bazooka 65mm diffuser and hope that the flow/circ pumps will be able to deliver all around the tank. But until I receive it (possibly next week) it will be lights off and no co2.
Having the co2 directly into the inflow of the filter creates a washing machine sound (in the filter) and very regular burping.


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## Samjpikey (16 Oct 2013)

Hey did you get hold of one of those bazookas ?? 
Any improvements yet ? 
Cheers 


Sent from my mobile telecommunications device


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## Bertie (17 Oct 2013)

Samjpikey said:


> Hey did you get hold of one of those bazookas ??
> Any improvements yet ?
> Cheers
> 
> ...


 
I put the bazooka in on Sunday and have not noticed too much new algae yet, so I will be watching carefully over the next couple of weeks.


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## Bertie (19 Oct 2013)

well the algae does continue to appear on new leaves!! I am currently dosing PO4 at 4ppm is it worth increasing this any more?


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