# No growth & old leaves turn yellow



## Jaap (12 May 2014)

Hello,

I am sure you must have grown tired of me but I need your help.

Specs:
Tank - 20L
Substrate - JBL Manado
Light - GE Energy Saver 9w (on box it says 9w = 41w) 6500k CFL horizontal bulb with DIY aluminium reflector with 7 hour photoperiod
Dosing - EI half teaspoon KNO3 half teaspoon KH2PO4 and 5ml Sera Florena on alternate days
Water changes - 3 x 70% per week
Filter - Internal filter 200 l/h with spraybar
CO2 - comes on 2 hours before lights on, UP atomiser diffuser, CO2 is almost on full blast
Fauna - NONE
Flora - Hemianthus Calitrihoides Cuba

Blackout was carried out 3 weeks ago for 3 days. The blackout was successful since BGA was gone but from there on its all gone down hill with alot of HCC melting and alot of HCC floating above substrate since its roots were detached from substrate. 

Problems:
1. Blue Green Algae - had it before, did a blackout, BGA was gone but HCC started melting and now BGA again. Half a teaspoon of KNO3 and KH2PO4 for 20L I think is more than enough Phosphates to prevent BGA, yet it is back again. Why?

2. NO GROWTH! Why?

3. Wholes on old leaves. Why?

4. Old leaves starting to yellow but just a little. It sure does not have the lush green colour I am aiming for. Instead it looks miserably green-yellowish. Why?

I am asking for help since I have done everything that I know of so basically no more solutions left!

Thanks


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## tim (12 May 2014)

Hi jaap, I'm sure you will grow tired of hearing not enough co2 But in my experience every symptom you list indicates co2 deficiency, it may not be the amount your injecting but more the way it's being distributed around the plant.


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## Jaap (12 May 2014)

I have already considered what you suggest and I am afraid there is not much more I can think of regarding distribution. The internal filter is 200 l/h, it has a spraybar and points slightly downwards. The filter is mounted on the left side of the tank and the diffuser exactly opposite on the right hand side of the tank. This causes the CO2 bubles to be pushed downwards and are kept for longer in the water. Furthermore, the filter initially was without a spraybar and the current was strong enough to cause the substrate in the corner to be pushed aside thus destroying my hardscape. 

This said, I have no idea on how to distribute CO2 differently without causing substrate turbulence and the HCC being uprooted.


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## tim (12 May 2014)

Maybe worth considering a small pump like this above the diffuser http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/hydor-pico-evomag-circulation-pump-650-p-5658.html, I used a small pump from a fluval spec when I ran diy/ yeast co2 it worked well in my 12 ltr, if I remember correctly your based in Cyprus hopefully something similar will be available, what's the temp of the tank at the moment warmer water will require more co2 also.


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## Jaap (13 May 2014)

This is a very good idea tim. However, if I add a pump like this in my tank I will end up with a substrate and HCC soup. 650 l/h will lift everything up, the current filter that I have, a 200 l/h one, moved the substrate around until I used a spraybar. I do have one more filter like this but I am unsure if it will be of any help. I mean the CO2 does get dissolved in the water since I have a kH of 8 and from a pH of 7.6 after one hour of CO2 injection I get a pH of 6! This is alot of CO2 in the water! 

Now regarding distribution, does this mean that the tiny bubbles need to pass over the HCC and touch its leaves? Because surely this does not happen.

Maybe its my light? 

Please have in mind that I even see some moderate pearling! 



tim said:


> Maybe worth considering a small pump like this above the diffuser http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/hydor-pico-evomag-circulation-pump-650-p-5658.html, I used a small pump from a fluval spec when I ran diy/ yeast co2 it worked well in my 12 ltr, if I remember correctly your based in Cyprus hopefully something similar will be available, what's the temp of the tank at the moment warmer water will require more co2 also.


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## parotet (13 May 2014)

Hi Jaap, a picture might help, but I would say that saying poor CO2, or poor ferts or poor flow is very related to too much light. Light is the accelerator of your tank and probably your light is asking for much more fuel that you can provide... I'm not sure about your light, but in a 20 liters nano tank I have I am not able to use the 100% of light provided in the kit, in my case a 9w LED. Other people can do it, so at the end it depends on your setup, plant density, kind of plants, personal skills... But to be honest it has only worked for me for the moment with the light unit dimmed, it has been the only way to balance everything in every situation, that is using liquid carbon, DIY CO2 and now low tech.

Jordi


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## Jaap (13 May 2014)

Doesn't my ph profile say alot about my CO2?

8 kH and a pH of 7.4 to 6 in one hour!


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## tim (13 May 2014)

Yes ph profile is good but if the co2 isn't being delivered to the plants at substrate level then the issue is distribution related.


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## parotet (13 May 2014)

Hi Jaap, IMO this pH fall is just an estimation of the CO2 in the water column (and assuming that you are working with good equipment, thus that your measurement is good enough), but there are many other important issues that this data cannot explain: is it enough CO2 for the photosynthetic rate imposed by your light? Is it well distributed and available for all you plants? Are the ferts added enough for such metabolic rate?

As you will notice many of these questions are difficult to answer or control, while the light is the easier thing to be controlled in a tank (at least this is my opinion) and really a key issue as it will have consequences on all the above mentioned questions.

It may sound like I am an expert (definitely I am not) but I have noticed (well, suffered…) in my tanks similar problems until I realized that there is nothing like working with low light and CO2, and try having everything under control (well, let’s say, feel that you have everything under control  ) and then increase the light until you find the point. Regarding lights your best bet would be to begin with low levels and increase it until you see negative effects. With Co2 and ferts the way is the opposite: give more than needed and adjust to lower levels if needed.

Hope it helps!

Jordi


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## Jaap (13 May 2014)

Now I am confused....

If I am overdosing nutrients and have plenty of co2 but not enough for my light (which is alot lets say) shouldn't I see some growth and some algae? BGA is not an algae caused by light or co2...and that is the only kind of algae I have and it is limited.

I see no growth and old leaves are in bad condition....


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## parotet (13 May 2014)

Jaap said:


> Now I am confused....


Don't worry Jaap, I am very often confused with my tanks... lol 



Jaap said:


> If I am overdosing nutrients and have plenty of co2 but not enough for my light (which is alot lets say) shouldn't I see some growth


Your (let's say) high light is imposing a very high demand of CO2 and ferts. C, N, P, K and other nutrients are responsable for plant growth (plant tissue formation)... so not enough nutrients means very weak/unhealthy growth... anyway, I think the problem is too much light and/or you are assuming that you have enough and good CO2 and ferts (see below)



Jaap said:


> and some algae? BGA is not an algae caused by light or co2...and that is the only kind of algae I have and it is limited


Beware, algae are always there. I have seen algae invading my high tech tank in a matter of hours. Hope it is not your case. Coming to my previous comments BGA is a good indicator of poor flow and low nitrates. So probably this is telling you that your flow can be improved (maybe CO2 and ferts are not reaching all the plants, thus not as unlimited as you thought) and that you are not overdosing nutrients as you thought.
Again not an expert but BGA is related to light, for sure... it is a photosynthetic organism. Will love your light.



Jaap said:


> I see no growth and old leaves are in bad condition....


Old leaves are the first ones to have problems... also looot of experience with this . They have been more time under bad conditions, they are older tissues more damaged due to bad nutrition. Also the first parts to be invaded by algae. In my case, old leaves were also in places with worse flow, which again explains low nutrient availability.

Jordi


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## Jaap (13 May 2014)

This was a reply from another forum: 
"I see you are dosing 1/2 a teaspoon of KNO3 and 1/2 a teaspoon of KH2PO4 every other day? Then you are doing three 70% water changes a week.
Why are you following this odd routine? It seems like a lot of work and opens your plants up to a host of potential problems. Plants need fairly stable nutrient concentrations. They do not do well when you add huge amounts of phosphates and nitrates then flush it all out then cycle back and forth like that.
Another thing, Sera Florena only contains iron and manganese, which are both necessary nutrients to add, however, you are missing several other micro nutrients and you are paying more for liquid fertilizer."

Do you guys agree with this statement?


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## tim (13 May 2014)

I've not had any nutrient related issues since dosing ei method but plenty of co2 issues, I use apfuk for all my dry salts.


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## sciencefiction (13 May 2014)

> Problems:
> 1. Blue Green Algae - had it before, did a blackout, BGA was gone but HCC started melting and now BGA again. Half a teaspoon of KNO3 and KH2PO4 for 20L I think is more than enough Phosphates to prevent BGA, yet it is back again. Why?
> 2. NO GROWTH! Why?
> 3. Wholes on old leaves. Why?
> 4. Old leaves starting to yellow but just a little. It sure does not have the lush green colour I am aiming for. Instead it looks miserably green-yellowish. Why?



I understand you are saying you are overdosing, but all these point to nitrogen deficiency see answer to your points.

1. Blue Green Algae-main reasons high phosphates or low nitrates
2. No Growth occurs when one particular nutrient is deficient. There is can only be one deficiency at a given time, until that is solved, growth won't occur because plants need all the required nutrients, including light and co2 at the same time in order to grow!!! When you solved the missing of the three, plants will proceed to grow until they bump into another deficiency.
Providing your light is sufficient, If your plants run out of nitrogen, no matter how much CO2 you pump, they won't grow. The opposite applies too of course.
3. Potassium deficiency -holes on older leaves.
4.. Old leaves yellowing points to nitrogen deficiency. Eventually if left unchecked new growth will be affected, leaves will grow stuned, smaller.

I'd bump all three N, P and K(most importantly N and K) and also improve the flow as the ferts simply may not be getting down there at all. BGA grows in places with little flow, light, no nitogen as it can fix it's won. Too much phosphate causes nitrogen to be consumed faster so that's another reason.
You maybe flushing your ferts via the water changes, make sure to redose after each water change.


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## parotet (13 May 2014)

Jaap said:


> Plants need fairly stable nutrient concentrations. They do not do well when you add huge amounts of phosphates and nitrates then flush it all out then cycle back and forth like that.


 I do not agree with this statment done by the guy on the other forum. I guess that plants do not understand/care about nutrient stability (is a river stable? probably not) but about nutrient availability... the fact is that nutrients have to be unlimited from the plants' point of view especially if you are pushing hard on the light side (that is, always available, no matter "how much" available).
In my case WC have done much better than worse, of course taking care that the water column is always kept with enough nutrients


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## Jaap (13 May 2014)

So here I have just added a second filter and I believe it will aid in the flow.


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## Jaap (13 May 2014)

sciencefiction said:


> I understand you are saying you are overdosing, but all these point to nitrogen deficiency see answer to your points.
> 
> 1. Blue Green Algae-main reasons high phosphates or low nitrates
> 2. No Growth occurs when one particular nutrient is deficient. There is can only be one deficiency at a given time, until that is solved, growth won't occur because plants need all the required nutrients, including light and co2 at the same time in order to grow!!! When you solved the missing of the three, plants will proceed to grow until they bump into another deficiency.
> ...



Hello sciencefiction and thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. However, here I would like to raise a questionmarks on the points you have stated so as for me and other people to understand.

1. As Clive ceg4048 stated in one of his posts about BGA "If this is BGA then it points to low nitrates or poor flow. Remove y hand and improve the flow/NO3 dosing." I do not believe it has anything to do with high Phosphates and that defies the purpose of EI all together.

2. Macros and Micros as stated earlier are in abundance and if I up any of the two then it will be ridiculously overdosing e.g 1 teaspoon of KNO3 and 1 teaspoon of KH2PO4 for a 20L tank????

3. I cannot believe there is a deficiency on Macros. No way. It might be micros but even at 5ml of sera florena I still cannot believe there is a micro deficiency. It might be bad flow I will give you that.

4. Please see point above.

Further to the above, I do not believe that there is too much Phospate in EI.

So I guess it is one of the two: LOW FLOW or/and HIGH LIGHT

This figure provided by Hoppy (http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showpost.php?p=904062&postcount=69) which I consider he guru of lights indicates that I have around 30 pars of light: 





So my 9w CFL 12 inches away from substrate would give around 25 PARS which is low light!


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## sciencefiction (13 May 2014)

> Further to the above, I do not believe that there is too much Phospate in EI.



Well it sounds to me EI is becoming like the "matrix" as Clive likes to say.
It's nothing to do with the phosphate being too much or being a trigger for algae. No one has said that.  It's to do with how things interact with each other. The higher the light, the higher the CO2 demand, the higher nutrient demand;
The higher a particular nutrient, the higher the demand for something else, the lack of one nutrient inhibits the take up of another, or the abundance of one nutrient can also inhibit the take up of another nutrient.
So clever folks have solved that by overdosing massively nutrients and calling it "EI" and if that doesn't solve the problem, you are asked to lower the light(so nutrient and co2 demand is lowered too) and that in most cases solves the current deficiency, plants start growing as none of the factors runs out at any given time but it doesn't mean its the right way to achieve the best looking or more stable tank or that there aren't different approaches.

So it were that easy and simple you would not have a problem this moment.

In relation to the spraybars, I'd put them next to each other rather than one over the other. Flow is about distribution, not about blowing your plants and fish away or making holes in the substrate.
In relation to your light if it's really 24 PAR at substrate level, then it's nothing even near to too high light.


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## Jaap (14 May 2014)

I tried to add the filters next to each other from the beginning but they don't fit....you can't see it in the picture but they are basically in each corner and they are overlapping, can't be placed next to each other.

I have seen a difference in flow, I see the leaves of the HCC move slightly. I have also seen the plants pearling.

I agree that EI is becoming like the Matrix 

However I think though such conversations we can learn from each other.

I see that to avoid or to rid of algae, alot of people from this forum do water changes, DAILY water changes. These water changes remove the macros and micros that were added from the day before. So when doing an unscheduled water change do you just go add the scheduled nutrients of the day or do you add your macros and your micros as well?


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## sciencefiction (14 May 2014)

Jaap said:


> So when doing an unscheduled water change do you just go add the scheduled nutrients of the day or do you add your macros and your micros as well?


 
I am not sure what I would do with 70% water change every other day. I'd definitely start from macros straight after the water change and possibly micros later on that day or early next day. Then I suppose you have a day without a water change and then repeat. If you do daily water changes of 70%, then you need to ensure that in the 30% left there are enough nutrients, so you may just need to dose higher doses instead.
If the tank is bigger, older and stocked with fish it's harder to run out of nutrients, especially in soil substrates like ADA Amazonia and the likes so some people have a back up but in your case you maybe flushing them out and plants run out here and there which would eventually weaken them/show deficiencies. Eventually as the tank mature your substrate will be charged enough to hold on in "dry seasons".  The point is at any given time to have enough for the plants and not getting bottomed out.[DOUBLEPOST=1400051846][/DOUBLEPOST]





> tried to add the filters next to each other from the beginning but they don't fit....you can't see it in the picture but they are basically in each corner and they are overlapping, can't be placed next to each other.



I don't mean the filters next to each other. Can you not twist the spraybar of the filter closer to the front glass so the spraybars make a line. You have then like this =, try to put the spraybars like this - -


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## Jaap (14 May 2014)

Tom barr confirmed that my overdosing does not harm plants...ratio of kno3 and kh2po4 doesnt matter either

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


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## sciencefiction (14 May 2014)

Jaap said:


> Tom barr confirmed that my overdosing does not harm plants...ratio of kno3 and kh2po4 doesnt matter either
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk



Hi Jaap, is that in response to my comments? I thought you have nutrient deficiencies and I did not say you were overdosing, on the contrary.  If Tom Barr confirms overdosing doesn't harm plants than I suggest you up you doses and make sure it's done after a water change so you don't flush it before plants get the chance to use the nutrients. If you are doing 70% water changes, then you've got to put treble the amount of ferts so there're enough in the 30% water left.

You've nothing to lose by trying. At least you can rule out one thing and move on to the next.


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## Jaap (14 May 2014)

Basically I m going for bettet circulation and I ll take it from there

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## sonicninja (16 May 2014)

I grew HC with JBL substrate and found it hard going. I gave it plenty of all the things id read and it just went yellow. My advice would be to be patient, nearly all mine almost died while it adapted to the conditions I gave it and then eventually flourished. I'm certain if I didn't constantly fiddle with CO2, light etc it probably would have had a more stable environment and adapted sooner. I'm sure you'll have some improvements soon!


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