# Dave Spencer`s Attempt.



## Dave Spencer

First off, thanks to Super Duper Coley for some useful starting up info and pictures.

Here are all the component parts. I don`t know whether the cable heater is really necessary, but it may help to keep the humidity up. Most light will be daylight, but I may supplement it with one or two 11W Arcpods. We shall see about this, plus the photoperiod.

The plastic pots are off Ebay, but there must be plenty of these knocking around people`s houses. The rockwool is from TGM, but available from hydroponic sites off the internet.

The propagator itself is from Wilkos and cheap.   They are cheaper still off ebay, but I wanted to see one in the flesh, so to speak.






Here is the cable going under the gravel.





This gives me a rough idea of how many pots will fit in there.





Lilaeopsis brasiliensis being added to the rock wool. All I did was cut the rock wool in half, which is how Tropica seem to do it.





Here is the final product.....grow damn you.  





And here is the final shot with L. brasiliensis, HM, HC and Ludwigia arcuata. This set up is really for my 120cm Crypts, Anubias etc when it is broken down. The HM and HC were being acclimatised for under water growth in my bedevilled 60cm, but I have taken them out and am now trying to re acclimatise them.





So, all I have to do now is figure out water levels, dosing regimes etc. My fingers are well and truly crossed.

Dave.


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## SO19Firearms

Great start  8) 
Did you have something in mind for the gravel or does it just keep your pots above the cable? (It definitely makes it look neat and tidy tho)


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## Stu Worrall

nice one dave, will be good to see how this turns out


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## Dave Spencer

SO19Firearms said:
			
		

> Great start  8)
> Did you have something in mind for the gravel or does it just keep your pots above the cable? (It definitely makes it look neat and tidy tho)



This is nowhere near as Gucci as your set up SO19Firearms. The gravel is primarily for the cable, but it also helps even out the base, which had a few peaks and troughs moulded in to it.

Got anything you want to try in here Stu?

I have just added a pot of Staurogyne _sp_ too. I reckon I may invest in some plant labels, considering how different stems can look out of water.

Dave.


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## Steve Smith

Really interesting Dave...  I'm considering where I might be able to set up something small like this in my flat!  How does the humidity work, just heating water in the base and keeping the lid on?


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## Nick16

i take it you will have to open the top every now and again to let some co2 in? cant wait to see this with a little water and some light.

how much was it from wikos? was the cable included?

was it this one? 

http://www.wilkinsonplus.com/Seed-Trays+Propagators/Propagator-Electric-38cm/invt/0273540


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## Dave Spencer

SteveUK said:
			
		

> Really interesting Dave...  I'm considering where I might be able to set up something small like this in my flat!  How does the humidity work, just heating water in the base and keeping the lid on?



You can get smaller propagators than this, Steve.

Basically, I am hoping that the lid will keep the humidity up, but it is very trial and error for me. The cable will hopefully keep the water warmer and, therefore, the humidity should be high enough.

I will probably mist the plants at every opportunity whilst I am still a little unsure.

Dave.


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## SO19Firearms

Keep an eye out for mold in the more compact systems.
If you can maintain the humidity with the vents open that will go some way to preventing it


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## GreenNeedle

I tend to leave the lids 'ajar' on all of mine.  It's amazing how hot these can get inside without any assistance 

When I first started I found that the humidity is fine. You can barely see into the propogator, however with the lid closed and the temp high I had all sorts of yellowing on some plants like HC from just getting too hot I guess.

I may be splitting a cheap Â£5 Wilko Air pump to 4 airstones and slipping them in 4 props soon to see if that does anything soon.

My dose is EI   Just 5ml Macro and 2ml Micro weekly but on different days due to there being a smaller amount of water and also no movement.  Yet to see if that is ideal but it works so far.

AC


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## Tony Swinney

Love it Dave - I'd like to try something like this in the future so I'll be watching your thread !

How much water do you need in there - just covering the gravel or up to the height of the pots ?

Good luck with it !

Cheers

Tony


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## Dave Spencer

Nick16 said:
			
		

> i take it you will have to open the top every now and again to let some co2 in? cant wait to see this with a little water and some light.
> 
> how much was it from wikos? was the cable included?
> 
> was it this one?
> 
> http://www.wilkinsonplus.com/Seed-Trays+Propagators/Propagator-Electric-38cm/invt/0273540



Mine was a basic Â£5 or so one as I already had the cable from my naive days in the matrix.

The vents are open, so CO2 levels will hopefully be OK.



			
				Tonser said:
			
		

> How much water do you need in there - just covering the gravel or up to the height of the pots ?
> 
> Tony



Cheers Tony. Sorry about the lens dude.  

I will be keeping the water at about 1cm below the top of the rock wool for now. 

Cheers Andy. I keep going and looking at it to make sure it is fogged up. Hopefully I will be able to unplug the cable, then it will truly be useless.  So far it is just tap water with a small amount of EI dosed water from my 120cm.

Dave.


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## Tony Swinney

Dave Spencer said:
			
		

> Cheers Tony. Sorry about the lens dude.



No worries Dave, maybe you could bring it along to Dans BBQ      Good to chat with you on Saturday - if you can remember   

Tony


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## Nick16

so what does the 'electric' version of the wikinsons propergator contain that the other 'basic' one doesnt. it says a heater? will this be in cable form?


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## SO19Firearms

Nick16 said:
			
		

> so what does the 'electric' version of the wikinsons propergator contain that the other 'basic' one doesnt. it says a heater? will this be in cable form?



I'd guess a mat in the base


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## Nick16

would be nice to find out though. i might email wiko's if no one has an answer by tonight.


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## Stu Worrall

i think the wilkos one will have a heater buried/sealed in the plastic base Nick

has anyone tried putting something like amazonia or oliver knotts stuff directly in the bottom and growing HC in it rather than pots?  guess you could do the same thing with moss?


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## Nick16

yeah, could be worth it for HC or glosso. maybe even some dwarf hairgrass, providing you have enough substrate.


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## Garuf

I have some worn out aquasoil that's mixed with sand, this could be the perfect use for it!


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## Nick16

i might try to grow some HC in it, but a pot or two and hope it spreads out nicely.


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## aaronnorth

looking good Dave  looking forward to hopefullt seeing some progression.


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## Dave Spencer

aaronnorth said:
			
		

> looking good Dave  looking forward to hopefullt seeing some progression.



Cheers Aaron. I sincerely hope there will be some progression to report. Even if the plants hold their own I will be happy. I should be able to keep a small stock of all my favourites and save myself a fortune.

I have a thermometer in there now, and it is at 22C.

Dave.


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## Steve Smith

I have an outdoor mini grow thing which I might be able to stick some smaller trays into.  It's one of those plastic shelf things covered in plastc, with a zip front.  Anyone think this'd be OK?  Not sure on night time temps...


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## Dave Spencer

Here is a quick update, but with no photos just yet. The temperature has been getting up to around 35C during the recent weather, and the stems have wilted a bit.

*L. arcuata*: A lot of die off of the immersed growth, but some good emersed growth had started after a week. I`ll be able to make one pot out of the three and start to take some cuttings.

*HM*: One pot is dying, one is absolutely thriving, and two are doing OK. The thriving pot is the cuttings I took of one overgrown pot before I started.

*Rotala sp "green": *I took some cuttings from my 120cm the other day. These are just dying off at the moment. I don`t think they liked the heat.

*HC*: Starting to show signs of holding its own, but no major growth.

*Marsilae sp: *Another new addition from the 120cm. It was a tiny amount, but looks like it is going to thrive.

*Staurogyne sp:* This was already emersed when I put it in, but it is growing, which is good news.

*L. brasiliensis*: This didn`t do anything for a while, but is now starting to grow.

I have also added a little Fissidens fontanus on a small piece of wood, but it is hard to tell what it is doing when it is just waterlogged. The plant just likes like green slime, but it is still alive.

It looks as if stem plants show the most activity, both in terms of dying and thriving.

Dave.


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## Stu Worrall

nice one dave, I was wondering yesterday how it was getting on.  Have you tried any fontalus out of the water? expect it might grow like moss in the damp atmosphere


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## Dave Spencer

Stu, the Fissidens is just out of the water (it is what you gave me) on a small piece of wood. I suspect it will do well, but it is hard to see its shape when it is not under water. When it attaches properly I will just dip it under water in one of my tanks to see how it is doing.

Dave.


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## Stu Worrall

my mistake sorry, i was thinking waterlogged meant underwater but it doesnt does it, dur     its really slow growing in my tank


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## Steve Smith

Can't wait for a few pics Dave   It really is making me want to try this out, seeing as I have a shed load of spare plants at the moment!


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## John Starkey

Hi dave realy interesting thread it seems you are having some results,if I get time I would to try something like this,well done mate regards john.


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## SO19Firearms

Are you aerating the water at all Dave?
A way of getting oxygen to the roots, but it will also replace the CO2 within the frame...

For the heat, maybe try a spare PC fan or blow a desktop fan across one of the vents (separating it from the second vent)

Another one to try if you want to see increased growth (and can afford it nowadays)- ramp the light right up...16, 18, 20hrs?
I had some "time lapse" pics of HC I did like that under 2 x 3ft tubes and the growth was visible by per day....

Nigel


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## GreenNeedle

The heat is one problem of the 'natural sunlight' method.  The heat generated by the sun through a window can be pretty impressive in the propogator.  You may be better finding a spot in a greenhouse/shed that is not in direct sunlight.  You will still get enough light that way but not so much heat from the direct sunlight.

My setup is using T8s and in a cupboard which gets no sunlight at all.  This cupboard remains at whatever the house thermo is plus a little so about 21-23 all year round.

Good to see you're not panicking over plants dying back.  They will virtually all come back as long as they can be grown emersed.

AC


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## Dave Spencer

Here is an update now that I have had time to make a few observations on my failures and successes.

My current formula, which is working quite well, and is easy to maintain and algae free is this:

Light: sunlight through a patio door. I sometimes move the propogator back a bit on sunny days.

Heat: sunlight and a heater cable. I did switch the cable heater off at one point, but the humidity dropped right down, says it now stays on all the time.

Substrate: fine gravel.

Dosing: the plants are sat on the gravel which is kept wet to its full depth with tap water. The rockwool soaks up the water to the roots, although a lot of plants are now rooting in the gravel. Once a day ther plants are misted with EI water from my 120cm tank.

So far, I have seen no algae. I think keeping the water down in the gravel has really hepled.

All the openings in the lid are open 100% of the time, and the lid is moved ajar on particularly hot days.

Here is a pic of some of the plants I am currently growing on.






Staurogyne _sp_: this stuff is really growing on. It looks a little under the weather because I have cut it back and repotted some. It flowers regularly. *Very easy*

Eleocharis parvula: I am growing this on for my nexy 120cm scape. It is doing well and chucking out runners. *Easy*

HC: doing well, but slowly. I now have three pots. *Easy*

HM: has huge growth bursts followed by a die back. All my stems do this. *Difficult*

Ludwigia arcuata: I think I have finally cracked it with this stem, and have finally managed to get one healthy pot together after a lot of die off. *Medium*

Microsorum pteropus "narrow": slow growth, but it is healthy and going in the right direction. Easy

Bolbitis heudelotii: same as above. I should be able to flood the market with this stuff when I break down the 120cm. *Easy*

Lilaeopsis brasiliensis: slow, healthy growth. *Easy*

Marsilea _sp_: throwing out runners and looks healthy. *Easy*

I haven`t really got any Crypts on the go as my rescape has been delayed due to a two week holiday and moving house.

Overall, growth is slower in my propogator than it is in my tanks.

He doesn`t know it yet, but Stu W is going to babysit this for me when I go away in September.  

All questions are welcome, and I will answer them as best I can in my limited experience.

Cheers, Dave.


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## Stu Worrall

Dave Spencer said:
			
		

> He doesn`t know it yet, but Stu W is going to babysit this for me when I go away in September.


lol, no probs dave. It will tkae pride of place on my windowsill in the utility!

Glad to see its coming along nicely. howmuch growth are you getting out of rthe grass?  ie do you put a little bit in the pot and the pot eventually fills up?

didnt know youd moved house already!


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## Dave Spencer

stuworrall said:
			
		

> lol, no probs dave. It will tkae pride of place on my windowsill in the utility!



Cheers dude.  


			
				stuworrall said:
			
		

> Glad to see its coming along nicely. howmuch growth are you getting out of rthe grass?  ie do you put a little bit in the pot and the pot eventually fills up?



I split two pots in to four, and all are chucking out runners. I`ve got a lot of growing on to do yet to get enough for my next project.



			
				stuworrall said:
			
		

> didnt know youd moved house already!



They haven`t laid the first brick yet. :?  Hopefully we will move in in time for a Christmas house warming.  

Dave.


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## Tony Swinney

Nice plants Dave - I think I might have a go at this   

Thanks for posting.

Tony


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## Steve Smith

Nice one Dave   Great looking plants!

I've spent the last few evenings prepping to get something started.  I'm going down the potting compost route, using an small clearseal tank I've got kicking about.  I'm going to give a few things a try   I've got a lot of crypts I need to pull from  a tank I'm shutting down, along with some other stuff!

Can't wait to get started!


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## lljdma06

Plants look good Dave!  Are you propogating to put in a larger tank?  Or to send to me?


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## Dave Spencer

Cheers Tony and Steve. It is well worth giving it a go as it is quite interesting, and not too difficult, although success with plants does vary.

Hiya Llj, I am mostly doing this to save money. I have lost count of the number of times I have thrown or given plants away, only to have to buy some more at a later date. I am hoping to keep my Crypts from my 120cm when I break it down. I am also growing on some E. parvula for my next project. If I could get them to the US in good nick, you would be welcome to some.  

Dave.


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## lljdma06

If there is anything I understand, Dave, it's saving money.  Is it actually saving you money right now?


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## Dave Spencer

It`s early days yet, but I have given a few bits and bobs away and plan to give away some more as a UKAPS donation. Start up and running costs are minimal, and if I can keep all my more expensive plants ticking over, then I should make a reasonable saving.

Dave.


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## aaronnorth

Hows this doing now, Dave?


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## Dave Spencer

Funny you should mention this Aaron, as I have just moved house, which meant strippng the 240l tank down. The plants in the propogator have been a neglected lately with a two week holiday, and the house move. I am expecting them to bounce back, but the next major issue is finding the time for potting up plants from the 240l, which are all in a bucket at the moment.  

The only plants I really struggle with are stems, but everything else either holds its ground, or actually grows on a bit. Mosses seem to do really well, although I do sometimes get what appears to be fungus on them. There is still no algae to mention.

Dave.


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