# Substrate for Caridina… what does everyone use?



## CJM70 (21 Jan 2022)

Okay so there seems to be a lot of disparity of opinion in terms of what is the best substrate for Caridina species of freshwater shrimps.  Here are the options below Which I am aware of so far and I would love to hear your contributions as to what you are using and why you prefer that to any of the other options….


ADA Amazonia 2
Akadama (there is one specifically for shrimp I think it’s double red line or something)
Fluval shrimp stratum
Ista shrimp soil
Brightwell aquatics soil

Also In the running our Dennerle Shrimp King soil (I believe this has been discontinued. From a conversation I had with one of their staff in Germany it seems that Dennerle are trying to move away from the shrimp hobby. Can anyone shed any light on this matter)?

Another one that I heard of is something called master soil.  I saw it on a few videos and I wondered if anyone else knows anything about it. Mark Peggie (of Marks Shrimp Tanks YT channel) mentioned in one of his earlier videos that he thought it was the best although he has since told me that his substrate of choice would now be Amazonia 2.  is anyone using this one?

looking forward to hearing back from as many of you as possible. I do like to try and get as much input as I can before making a choice. I often find and I’m sure you do too, that the more response you get the easier it is to establish a consensus of opinion.

Cheers guys n gals.


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## erwin123 (21 Jan 2022)

I use Gex Shrimp sand as its readily available in my country, even supermarkets sell it.



			Product data : Stratum | Aquarium Fish | GEX Corporation


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## AlecF (21 Jan 2022)

Mine are happy on sand, but with a nice layer of leaves, and thick planting. Underneath the sand I have a mix of soil based around John Innes No. 3 and clay. My guess is shrimps prefer leaves to any specific substrate that's beneath them, if one was choosing for them. Aqua sand has done the job.


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## CJM70 (21 Jan 2022)

AlecF said:


> Mine are happy on sand, but with a nice layer of leaves, and thick planting. Underneath the sand I have a mix of soil based around John Innes No. 3 and clay. My guess is shrimps prefer leaves to any specific substrate that's beneath them, if one was choosing for them. Aqua sand has done the job.


What species do you keep in that setup and what are your water Params?


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## Wookii (21 Jan 2022)

CJM70 said:


> Also In the running our Dennerle Shrimp King soil



I use this, its great soil and buffers the pH down nicely for you. It would be a shame if it is true that it is being discontinued - I'd be surprised if it was true, and the Shrimp King stuff must be a big seller for them.

Steer clear of the Amazonia - you want ammonia free soils for Caridina.

Others you could consider is Glasgarten Environment Aquarium Soil, JBL Proscape Shrimp Soil. You can of course use any inert substrate you like, but then you need to find a way to get the pH down.


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## AlecF (21 Jan 2022)

CJM70 said:


> What species do you keep in that setup and what are your water Params?


I'm not an expert or a "breeder"; I have a mix of crystal red, yellow, reds and more common neos. I'm happy if they are. I have shrimplets. I mix rainwater with tap, and add a bit of salty shrimp or equilibrium now and then. TDS is c 180ppm. PH is 6.5-7. Everything else is "normal". I'm not really the right person to advise on the complex – to me – ratios of water chemistry. But I know they love oak leaves and those rest well on sand; it's easy to hoover up any detritus and add clean sand now and then. Personally I'm an outlier as I don't like the look of a layer of small black clay atoms in a tank; I like a Carole King natural feel and imagine shrimps have the habit of sand and leaves built in. I used a blend of John Innes, clay, a bit of peat, some mulched beech leaves, etc, under the sand, as I was interested in a more natural approach for the plants, and wanted to learn, rather than being solely concerned with shrimp parameters. My impression is that aqua sand is a reasonably neutral substance and that sometimes thinking about nature is a good way to go. I mean one can set up a tank with soil and sand, let the plants settle, use RO if you need to, or rainwater and tap, and the chemistry should be stable enough for shrimp. In the end what they crave is biofilm and stability.


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## Jaseon (21 Jan 2022)

Im a little bit weary if i see shrimp products like shrimp sand/soil although its the ph buffering capabilities of the soil thats important for Caridina? 

I use a thin layer of river sand so just enough to cover the glass. I would look to use a thin layer of the soil you choose than having it inches thick like i see in some tanks. Most breeders use a thin layer. 

It depends on what you want to do. Are you setting up a dedicated tank for breeding?


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## Jaseon (21 Jan 2022)

Check this guy out hes pretty knowledgeable.


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## CJM70 (21 Jan 2022)

Jaseon said:


> Im a little bit weary if i see shrimp products like shrimp sand/soil although its the ph buffering capabilities of the soil thats important for Caridina?


I can understand people being a little bit cautious although I think when it comes to shrimp, nice products have been developed with the shrimp in mind.. for example the shrimp King soil is essentially the same as amazonia. It just doesn't have quite so many minerals and nutrients added to it. In fact I think I heard at some point that most of these soils are made in the same factory.


Jaseon said:


> I use a thin layer of river sand so just enough to cover the glass. I would look to use a thin layer of the soil you choose than having it inches thick like i see in some tanks. Most breeders use a thin layer.


Yes I am beginning to err towards a more shallow layer but then using additional soil within the filter. The reason you want to use a decent amount of soil is for it's buffering capability. 


Jaseon said:


> It depends on what you want to do. Are you setting up a dedicated tank for breeding?


I will be setting up several dedicated tanks at some stage this year. In the meantime  I'm just going to set up a display tank which will have a shrimp and fish


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## CJM70 (21 Jan 2022)

Jaseon said:


> Check this guy out hes pretty knowledgeable.



Yes he’s a pretty good guy I like his videos.


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## Jaseon (21 Jan 2022)

CJM70 said:


> I can understand people being a little bit cautious although I think when it comes to shrimp, nice products have been developed with the shrimp in mind.. for example the shrimp King soil is essentially the same as amazonia. It just doesn't have quite so many minerals and nutrients added to it. In fact I think I heard at some point that most of these soils are made in the same factory.
> 
> Yes I am beginning to err towards a more shallow layer but then using additional soil within the filter. The reason you want to use a decent amount of soil is for it's buffering capability.
> 
> I will be setting up several dedicated tanks at some stage this year. In the meantime  I'm just going to set up a display tank which will have a shrimp and fish


Im looking to get into it from a purely breeding point of view other than having a tank that just happens to have some shrimp in so dedicated just for them. Im sticking to Neos for now just to build up some experience with them. What do you think of the filter boxes? I was thinking of buying the uplifts for them, and making the boxes myself out of glass. I see a lot of the Asian breeders use them, and they seem successful. I will try a tank with it, but im going with HMF in the main.

As theres no planting into the substrate it can go pretty thin. I like the concept, and reasoning behind it although  im looking to have plenty of leaves, moss, and ferns in my tanks. You have no doubt seen this breeder from singapore on YT, and his tanks are set up purely for breeding. From a visual standpoint not much to look at, but he knows his stuff.


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## MichaelJ (21 Jan 2022)

Wookii said:


> I use this, its great soil and buffers the pH down nicely for you. It would be a shame if it is true that it is being discontinued - I'd be surprised if it was true, and the Shrimp King stuff must be a big seller for them.
> 
> Steer clear of the Amazonia - you want ammonia free soils for Caridina.
> 
> Others you could consider is Glasgarten Environment Aquarium Soil, JBL Proscape Shrimp Soil. You can of course use any inert substrate you like, but then you need to find a way to get the pH down.


There you go @Wookii,  I didn't even know shrimp soil was a _thing_   ... I do botanicals and the shrimps loves it - also shaves down the pH if your low on buffer (KH).

Cheers,
Michael

Note to myself: You are NOT redoing your shrimp tank just because @Wookii made you aware of shrimp soil


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## CJM70 (21 Jan 2022)

AlecF said:


> I'm not an expert or a "breeder"; I have a mix of crystal red, yellow, reds and more common neos. I'm happy if they are. I have shrimplets. I mix rainwater with tap, and add a bit of salty shrimp or equilibrium now and then.


I have some of that for sale if you are interested (equilibrium)… let me know


AlecF said:


> TDS is c 180ppm. PH is 6.5-7. Everything else is "normal". I'm not really the right person to advise on the complex – to me – ratios of water chemistry. But I know they love oak leaves and those rest well on sand; it's easy to hoover up any detritus and add clean sand now and then.


The leaves will definitely add tannins, which helps the water quality. I’m not sure about hoovering up the detritus - in a shrimp tank that’s quite desirable unless it builds up too much. I’d be scared of hoovering up baby shrimp, lol.


AlecF said:


> Personally I'm an outlier as I don't like the look of a layer of small black clay atoms in a tank; I like a Carole King natural feel and imagine shrimps have the habit of sand and leaves built in.


I like natural as well but ultimately the most important thing is the correct water quality for the shrimp. Most good breeders and shrimp experts all concur that for caridina species, that means 5.5 to 6.5 max, with the best results achieved at the lower end of that scale.  I have no doubt shrimp can survive at different parameters, much like fish can, and they will probably breed, but most evidence suggests that they are happier and more accurate water parameters and better breeding results are achieved that way. I’m with you on the leaves and they will definitely feature in my tank as well, I will probably have various types of leaf as well as Alder cones.


AlecF said:


> I used a blend of John Innes, clay, a bit of peat, some mulched beech leaves, etc, under the sand, as I was interested in a more natural approach for the plants, and wanted to learn, rather than being solely concerned with shrimp parameters. My impression is that aqua sand is a reasonably neutral substance and that sometimes thinking about nature is a good way to go. I mean one can set up a tank with soil and sand, let the plants settle, use RO if you need to, or rainwater and tap, and the chemistry should be stable enough for shrimp. In the end what they crave is biofilm and stability.


I agree that they crave biofilm and stability but I’m not convinced that the method you have described above lens itself to stability. I have seen too many examples of stuff like John Innes being used only to totally screw up the water parameters at some stage. That is not to say it will happen in your case but it has certainly happened multiple times for people that I have seen on YouTube.  As I see it, the problem with experimenting when you are talking about enclosed environments for living animals is that if things go wrong it’s the animals that suffer. However, if someone has been fortunate enough to crack what works for them, then who am I to suggest it is wrong.

Thanks for your input, you said you are no expert and neither am I. But I appreciate the time you took to make your post. I would be very interested to see a picture of your set up if you have the time. 👍👍


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## CJM70 (21 Jan 2022)

Jaseon said:


> Im looking to get into it from a purely breeding point of view other than having a tank that just happens to have some shrimp in so dedicated just for them. Im sticking to Neos for now just to build up some experience with them. What do you think of the filter boxes? I was thinking of buying the uplifts for them, and making the boxes myself out of glass. I see a lot of the Asian breeders use them, and they seem successful. I will try a tank with it, but im going with HMF in the main.
> 
> As theres no planting into the substrate it can go pretty thin. I like the concept, and reasoning behind it although  im looking to have plenty of leaves, moss, and ferns in my tanks. You have no doubt seen this breeder from singapore on YT, and his tanks are set up purely for breeding. From a visual standpoint not much to look at, but he knows his stuff.



Hi yes I have seen him and he definitely knows his stuff. I agree with you and I want to breed once I am moved into my new place which won’t be for a few months. But I also prefer a slightly more natural look and will keep some leaves and moss and a few other plants. I will definitely keep floating plants because they are an excellent way of exporting nitrate.  Have you seen the YouTube channel called “marks shrimp tanks”. Mark is a great guy and really knows his stuff and has a massive following on YouTube.  He seems to have a good balance in his thanks - just the right amount of everything, although he does have quite a few tanks with deeper substrate beds.

HMF have different reviews. Some people don’t like them. Then you have other breeders/importers such as Flip Aquatics in America who run them in most of their tanks. Personally I think they take up too much space. But I like the alternative option of a corner quadrant HMF.  In this instance you put a vertical retaining brace on the side and back, and curve the foam matting to form a quadrant shape. I have seen this several times. The only caveat would be by curbing the matting, you would essentially be constricting the foam slightly due to the curve.  As long as you choose wisely with your phone density I don’t see this would be a problem. The thing that I like about an HMF is that it gives the shrimp extra surface for biofilm and also gives the breeder or keeper a great opportunity to photograph their shrimps.

keep me/us posted on how you do things👍👍


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## Aqua360 (21 Jan 2022)

I really like Fluval stratum, it eventually turns to mud but I don't care. 

Also on the topic of dennerle leaving the shrimp side, this would be a real shame, however I noticed in one of George Farmers recent videos he said Chris Lukhaup, who basically championed Dennerle as their "Shrimp King" ambassador, has now parted ways with the company, so this might sadly be true!


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## CJM70 (21 Jan 2022)

Aqua360 said:


> I really like Fluval stratum, it eventually turns to mud but I don't care.
> 
> Also on the topic of dennerle leaving the shrimp side, this would be a real shame, however I noticed in one of George Farmers recent videos he said Chris Lukhaup, who basically championed Dennerle as their "Shrimp King" ambassador, has now parted ways with the company, so this might sadly be true!


I am pretty sure that Chris is now doing other things, but that seems to be no reason for Dennerle to move away from the hobby.  What pH do you find that your stratum maintains?


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## Aqua360 (21 Jan 2022)

CJM70 said:


> I am pretty sure that Chris is now doing other things, but that seems to be no reason for Dennerle to move away from the hobby.  What pH do you find that your stratum maintains?



Hopefully they aren't, I'm a big fan of their stuff. 

I have soft water already, and I use RO remineralised when keeping caridina, tbh I don't measure the pH, I just monitor TDS and breeding rates. If you find breeding drops, its usually a sign to then replace the substrate.


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## CJM70 (21 Jan 2022)

Aqua360 said:


> Hopefully they aren't, I'm a big fan of their stuff.
> 
> I have soft water already, and I use RO remineralised when keeping caridina, tbh I don't measure the pH, I just monitor TDS and breeding rates. If you find breeding drops, its usually a sign to then replace the substrate.


Yes I only asked because the video that someone linked me to above, the guy is a polish breeder and he says that he finds he achieves the best breeding at 5.5 to 5.8 pH. I'm not entirely sure that stratum would actually achieve below 6. Any chance you could do a ph test at some point?


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## Jaseon (21 Jan 2022)

CJM70 said:


> Hi yes I have seen him and he definitely knows his stuff. I agree with you and I want to breed once I am moved into my new place which won’t be for a few months. But I also prefer a slightly more natural look and will keep some leaves and moss and a few other plants. I will definitely keep floating plants because they are an excellent way of exporting nitrate.  Have you seen the YouTube channel called “marks shrimp tanks”. Mark is a great guy and really knows his stuff and has a massive following on YouTube.  He seems to have a good balance in his thanks - just the right amount of everything, although he does have quite a few tanks with deeper substrate beds.
> 
> HMF have different reviews. Some people don’t like them. Then you have other breeders/importers such as Flip Aquatics in America who run them in most of their tanks. Personally I think they take up too much space. But I like the alternative option of a corner quadrant HMF.  In this instance you put a vertical retaining brace on the side and back, and curve the foam matting to form a quadrant shape. I have seen this several times. The only caveat would be by curbing the matting, you would essentially be constricting the foam slightly due to the curve.  As long as you choose wisely with your phone density I don’t see this would be a problem. The thing that I like about an HMF is that it gives the shrimp extra surface for biofilm and also gives the breeder or keeper a great opportunity to photograph their shrimps.
> 
> keep me/us posted on how you do things👍👍



Im going to try a full HMF, and a corner one. Ive built my tanks with them in mind so ill see how it goes. Our interest means we have most probably come across the same stuff on YT. I like Marks shrimp tanks, but try Marks aquatics if you have not seen him. Hes does a bit of everything, and ive made my own shrimp foods from watching him.


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## erwin123 (22 Jan 2022)

Jaseon said:


> Im looking to get into it from a purely breeding point of view other than having a tank that just happens to have some shrimp in so dedicated just for them. Im sticking to Neos for now just to build up some experience with them. What do you think of the filter boxes? I was thinking of buying the uplifts for them, and making the boxes myself out of glass. I see a lot of the Asian breeders use them, and they seem successful. I will try a tank with it, but im going with HMF in the main.
> 
> As theres no planting into the substrate it can go pretty thin. I like the concept, and reasoning behind it although  im looking to have plenty of leaves, moss, and ferns in my tanks. You have no doubt seen this breeder from singapore on YT, and his tanks are set up purely for breeding. From a visual standpoint not much to look at, but he knows his stuff.
> 
> [





Here's another SG shrimp retailer who goes the traditional substrate+ sponge filter route:









						MADSHRIMP Official | Online Store, Shrimp Breeding and Expert Tips
					

MADSHRIMP




					madshrimp.com


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## CJM70 (22 Jan 2022)

erwin123 said:


> Here's another SG shrimp retailer who goes the traditional substrate+ sponge filter route:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks I will have a look at it tomorrow I can barely keep my eyes open now 👍😂


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## The_storm (29 Jan 2022)

I use tropica soil.


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## dw1305 (29 Jan 2022)

Hi all,


CJM70 said:


> The thing that I like about an HMF is that it gives the shrimp extra surface for biofilm and also gives the breeder or keeper a great opportunity to photograph their shrimps.


I think an <"exposed sponge browsing surface"> is a great thing for a fry or shrimp tank.


CJM70 said:


> But I like the alternative option of a corner quadrant HMF.


An <"Eck Matten filter">, a bit more work, but a neater job and equally effective.

cheers Darrel


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## Aqua360 (29 Jan 2022)

CJM70 said:


> Yes I only asked because the video that someone linked me to above, the guy is a polish breeder and he says that he finds he achieves the best breeding at 5.5 to 5.8 pH. I'm not entirely sure that stratum would actually achieve below 6. Any chance you could do a ph test at some point?



I'll try and find a pH test among the paraphernalia I have, and if so I'll test!


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## CJM70 (29 Jan 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I think an <"exposed sponge browsing surface"> is a great thing for a fry or shrimp tank.
> 
> ...


Cheers Darrell


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## sparkyweasel (29 Jan 2022)

dw1305 said:


> I think an <"exposed sponge browsing surface"> is a great thing for a fry or shrimp tank.


I agree with that.
But not so good for an Apple Snail tank, as I found out the hard way. It took them about half an hour to eat all the sponge. Didn't seem to do them any harm though.


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