# PFK glassware blog



## George Farmer (25 Feb 2009)

Check out the 'heated' discussion between Jeremy and I.

Feel free to comment on the blog yourselves, whether it's in favour of glassware or not.

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/p ... blogid=251


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## LondonDragon (25 Feb 2009)

Good discussion hehe I am not a fan of glassware but I guess its because I haven't got a rimless tank, if I did I would prefer the glassware as it look a lot better than any other pipework. But since I have never used any glassware other than CO2 diffusors I can't really say much about it.

All I know is my diffusor has been in the tank for about 3 months and still doesn't need a clean. If you keep your maintnance up to scratch then I guess your glassware will stain resonably clean and algae free.


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## GreenNeedle (25 Feb 2009)

I think Jeremy's lost the plot there a little.  He must love the old style 'discreet' green plastic.  Does he not mean 'gawdy'

That glassware is really dirty and as for the diffuser!!! Someone needs to step up their maintenace.  My Rhinox is 2 years old and has never look liked that so I can only assume the user has problems elsewhere to cause this!!!  I've never broken lilys which have been in for 18 months and clean them monthly and they don't go green ever!!!  They get brown from muck but so does the hose.

The only thing I agree with is they reduce flow a bit but the 'tight bend' is not as bad as the connectors on plastic setup which in Tetratec's case is square corners!!!

I put my diffuser 1 third up in the tank not for aesthetics but because then the flow hits the bubbles at 2 thirds up the tank and blows the bubbles 

And if you buy the rock hard CO2 hose it doesn't go white opaque.  However it is hard to get on and off the diffuser so I use the slightly softer rhinox tubing for that section.

Pointless rant for the sake IMO.  Reduces flow yes.  Anything else just silly comments.  Some people just like to moan about things ('says me' )

AC


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## Dan Crawford (25 Feb 2009)

SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> That glassware is really dirty and as for the diffuser!!! Someone needs to step up their maintenace.


 If you have a look at the updated blog you'll see who supplied the images  and he was asked to supply those images and altered his methods accordingly (filled with water and floated it in a bowl for 3 days under 160w)
The inlet was impossible to get off due to a number of reasons, hence the break and the state of it. Dunno why i keep such things but it certainly payed off in the long run, my Dad would be proud "i'll use that one day"  
I can't believe i aided him in his attempt to "smash" glassware but i think we put up a good fight?


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## Dave Spencer (25 Feb 2009)

As soon Jeremy make one single point that I find slightly relevant, I shall stop using glass inlets and outlets as the only hardware inside my tanks, and mention this on the blog. 

Why does he not have a dig at people who shoe horn tank busting fish in to aquariums with a couple of plant pots in the bottom?

At least aquascapers try to improve their skills with every new scape they set up, including the aesthetics of hardware. Aquascaped opti white tanks rule!!!

No disrespect to Jeremy, but his opinion on this subject carries far less weight than George`s, or anybody that tries improve the look of their aquascape for that matter.

He doesn`t understand why aesthetics are important, and probably never will.   

Dave.


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## beeky (25 Feb 2009)

I've always maintained that glass inlets restrict the flow too much (Anyone got one of these?). They do look nicer, but I'd rather have a plastic strainer in my tanks, unless it's a nano and heavy filttration is less of an issue.

As for lily pipes, they look better than plastic outlets as well and may have better flow than a single outlet. I've found if I've tried to hide an outlet effectively, it generally leads to flow obstruction, so if you're going to see it then make it nicer to look at I say. I'd rather have an inline CO2 reactor or bubble it into the intake though rather than have a diffuser, which I think are distracting and I wouldn't want the hassle of keeping it clean.

Having said all that, I don't have any glassware as I'm too tight to pay for it!


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## altaaffe (25 Feb 2009)

I think I'm probably with most here - in that I like to see the glassware in my tank, especially one with no stem plants.  However, I have had a problem with a glass inlet recently in that it was not allowing enough water to the filter which being an Eheim was managing to grab plenty of gas and providing gas locks inside the filter.  Unfortunatley, I've had to go back to the plastic, wider strainer to alleviate the problem.


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## mjenner (25 Feb 2009)

Wow, it is getting quite heated over on the PFK forums!  

Personally, I can see the benefits of both, particularly in the "artier" planted tanks where the equipment would be visible.

I'm paranoid about breaking any of my glassware, so far I've only put the diffusers in too, but whilst it's still clean, I'm pretty sure the glassware would look nicest, but for practicality, I think plastic would have to win, and it's what I've eventually gone with in my tank, I think the spray-bar would be more effective at distributing the flow in my tank than a lily pipe in my case.

I might try some glassware on my little cube as it's rimless and I think it might look nicer than it's current internal filter, providing I can find a nice small external filter.

It is too expensive generally though, especially if you're buying glassware in this country (I'd recommend the hong-kong eBay specials).

Just my 2p on the subject. 

Matt


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## Steve Smith (25 Feb 2009)

I have some of the cheaper AquaticMagic "Flo" 12mm tubes waiting for me at the post office.  My first glass inlet/outlets.  Unfortunately, the tank I was going to set up and use these on will now most likely have an EX1200 on it with larger tubing.  Doh!

I think Jeremy is going a little over board.  Some things I don't really see the point in, like glass bubble counters/check valves.  They really are for show in my opinion.  You can quite happily hide these with your CO2 bottle out of the way   As for inlets/outlets I personally think they look very attractive, and do blend into the glass box they're attached too!  Plastic has it's place, but can look pretty ugly.  Trying to hide plastic inlets can of course hinder the scape if you're tied to trying to hide them with plants.

One final observation - Jeremy/his supporters go on about adding stuff inline to hide them but, of course, the more inline stuff you have, the more "frictional loss" you encounter.  Surely they must realise this?

Form over function is unfair.  As George, Dan and the rest of you have posted the glass objects do have plenty of function.  They just happen to look nice in the process


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## George Farmer (25 Feb 2009)

SteveUK said:
			
		

> I have some of the cheaper AquaticMagic "Flo" 12mm tubes waiting for me at the post office.  My first glass inlet/outlets.  Unfortunately, the tank I was going to set up and use these on will now most likely have an EX1200 on it with larger tubing.  Doh!



Hi Steve,

Obviously you'll need 16/12mm reducers.

I've found the best way to minimise flow loss with reducers is to fit them near the glassware itself. 

So you have 12mm glassware with a small length of 12mm tubing on each piece, then the reducer, then the rest of the tubing regular (16mm) filter hose to the filter.  

Flow loss is minimal this way.  I'm using 12mm inlet (Cal Aqua) and 12mm outlet (Aquatic Magic) with 16mm hosing this way and the flow is so strong I have to turn it down otherwise it uproots my plants!  Mind you, it is a 1550lph rated filter in a 60 litre tank!


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## plantbrain (25 Feb 2009)

I look at trade offs for each method and explore each. This is the only fair method os assessment.

I've run the gambit on CO2 and DIY modifications, various methods.
They all work but have certain trade offs. I have switched out my mazzei ventui and other high powered systems for CO2 to try disc once again.

The mazzei is a bit large, requires higher pressure flow rates etc, it is also subjected to the filter clogging, all in line systems have this tradeoff/failing which can and does reduce CO2 flow into the tank.

I also did not like the noise if I added another pump, nor the electric bill increasing.
Disc have to be placed in the current, which is not always asethetic depending on design of the tank etc. 

I think the CO2 mist is a very strong method, and disc, mazzei, needle or mesh wheel methods are the most effective.
These can be added in conjunction with a CO2 reactor etc or not.

CO2 is cheap, electric is not, I want the most out of my filter and flow, disc require no energy other than the solenoid valve.

So if I use another 10% more CO2, it is still well worth it for electric savings.
I still have to clean something no matter what, but this does not affect the CO2 as much and the disc is out there where I can keep an eye on it.

I've used disc and most methods several times in the past and have been CO2 reactor DIY obsessed for a decade or so.
Nutrients are rather simple and easy to address for me.
Light and CO2 are less so.

So that is where I focused most of my own effort.
Tilex bathroom cleaner works best for cleaning the disc, much better than plain bleach 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (25 Feb 2009)

George Farmer said:
			
		

> Check out the 'heated' discussion between Jeremy and I.
> 
> Feel free to comment on the blog yourselves, whether it's in favour of glassware or not.
> 
> http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/p ... blogid=251



I got them in a froth already over the Redfield ratio 8) 

I better lay low when I'm telling the mods to stay "on topic" and not take it personally.
That's their job, not mine  

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## GreenNeedle (25 Feb 2009)

Dan Crawford said:
			
		

> If you have a look at the updated blog you'll see who supplied the images  and he was asked to supply those images and altered his methods accordingly (filled with water and floated it in a bowl for 3 days under 160w)
> The inlet was impossible to get off due to a number of reasons, hence the break and the state of it.




Dan - Are you saying you intentionally got those lily pipes algaeifed and broken for the article when asked?  If so may I ask Why? and what does that prove?

I have the cheap AM ones.  As I say I clean them every month. They take a bit of removing from the hose but not a problem.  I use the tip of my thumb to force the end of the hose down a little moving slowly back and forth and then once it's moved a mm or so down I do a 'chinese burn' on it and it comes off.  Maybe the cheap ones are thicker glass than the expensive ones 

AC


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## JamesM (25 Feb 2009)

I don't have time for them. Another over priced gimmick.


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## George Farmer (25 Feb 2009)

JamesM said:
			
		

> Another over priced gimmick.


I disagree, James.

You can pick up relatively inexpensive sets - both lily pipes and glass/ceramic diffusers, from various online sources these days.  Some glass/ceramic diffusers are far less expensive than the alternatives.  Some glass lily pipe sets are less expensive than spray bar kits. 

Also, for me, something that makes my aquascape more attractive is not a gimmick.  Especially when the filter inlet and outlet cannot be hidden.  Lily pipes are the ideal solution for many with such set ups.


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## Ed Seeley (25 Feb 2009)

George Farmer said:
			
		

> SteveUK said:
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Or put a short piece of 12/16mm pipe on the fitting and then put the 16/22mm pipe over that.  Nice water-tight fit with the only reduction in diameter being at the fitting itself.


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## JamesM (25 Feb 2009)

George Farmer said:
			
		

> JamesM said:
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Diffusers, fair enough... although I do prefer the inline method as it seems more effective.

Can you point me in the direction of cheap intake and lilly pipes? Or even better, a glass spraybar that doesn't cost the earth and is easy to clean?

I certainly can see the appeal in some tanks, but they're not really me... I'm not a fan of open top tanks either though. That said, if the price was better I'd consider trying them at least.

I actually emailed Cal Aqua about a plastic/glass hybrid a long time ago - plastic on the outside, with glass only below water level. Never heard anything back though


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## GreenNeedle (25 Feb 2009)

George Farmer said:
			
		

> JamesM said:
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Especially when we need to get these items where they will work best within the tank rather than being forced to 'hide' them away   I have mine in the front (in view) not because I want to show off but because that is where I found the best place to have them to get the best out of the filtration.

AC


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## samc (25 Feb 2009)

i am going to get a cheap set when i set my new iwagumi up. For tanks like iwagumis i think they are a good idea as it impossible to hide them


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## John Starkey (25 Feb 2009)

Hi Guys,
just my two peneth,
i think its a pointless childish squabble,which will only do harm to the shops that sell glass ware,
regards john.


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## JamesM (25 Feb 2009)

john starkey said:
			
		

> Hi Guys,
> just my two peneth,
> i think its a pointless childish squabble,which will only do harm to the shops that sell glass ware,
> regards john.


Everyone has their opinion.

Glassware manufacturers need to get prices down, but then its not just about the manufacturer or the manufacturing process.. 

I had a chat with Mark (saintly) about tweezer prices earlier - JBL mass-produced tweezers are like Â£20. What is that all about? The ADA ones are even sillier! How much do you honestly think it costs to produce these items? Most of the cash goes to the shops that sell them and the manufacturers marketing dept. Its crazy. Most people just want things that look reasonable and work as intended.


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## plantbrain (26 Feb 2009)

I'm not too keen on the lily pipes or the intakes, having broken two sets doing routine maintenance  
They also get funky and loose tha nice appearance of a fresh cleaned one much faster than the disc.

Rhinox are cheap, and severla asian places make them, Acrylic DIY methods make them a bit tougher also.
ADA sells the metal versions which are not nice a glass clear etc, but a lot more durable.

I've had a long history using disc and testing them as we had a local guy pushing the Ehiem diffusers for years here in SF(Dave Gomberg) and suggested not using and needle valve. I made the case for using needle valve, after 7-8 dead tanks with end of gas tank dumps, folks steered away from disc. A few that kept them had no issues but used valves.

They give good results.
Asethetics aside...........they are fairly simple and easy to add.
But some might prefer a DIY in line reactor with a venturi loop, a mazzei venturi valve, or a needle wheel powerhead/mesh needle wheel.

CO2 diffusion is where most folks shuld be most focused, so it's not a worthless debate, even if things get personal.
 CO2 tweaking is where you will get most of the gains in this hobby, reduce algae issues, improve plan health etc etc.....the most.

Light is the other, but it's pretty clear that low light + good high CO2 = the best results.
By best, I mean effective good growth, not not max growth rates, where management is easier for any hobbyists gardening their tank.

I'd say needle wheel mesh DIY modifications are some of the most efficient, followeed by mazzei venturis etc.
But disc can do a pretty good job as well and CO2 is cheap.

Not much a trade off really. Also, electric cost $ to run those methods some. Disc cost no electric other than solenoids which most have anyway.

Another good thing, the disc are out there to see and watch, that's sort of fun and keeps you thinking about the CO2, vs out of sight/out of mind.

Adding a disc is also a pretty simple addition.
In line systems and leaks are more daunting.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## JohnC (26 Feb 2009)

who invented the 61% rule out of interest?


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## GreenNeedle (26 Feb 2009)

JamesM said:
			
		

> Glassware manufacturers need to get prices down, but then its not just about the manufacturer or the manufacturing process..



I agree on the tweezers but when you think the asian ones are now inthe region of Â£25 inc shipping they can't really come down in price any further.

Unlike the mass produced on a machine plastic outlets that should be able to come down in price due to their ease of production, the glass pipes are hand blown hence the cost.  That said ADA prices are for the little ink/etch.  I am talking about the cheaper ones here.

AC


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## Aeropars (26 Feb 2009)

Â£25 for a pair of tweesers is still a stupid amount.


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## George Farmer (26 Feb 2009)

Aeropars said:
			
		

> Â£25 for a pair of tweesers is still a stupid amount.


Perhaps.  I think it largely depends on the quality of the materials used.  One manufacturer's stainless steel does vary considerably from anothers.  I suspect the more expensive products use better quality materials, and would hope so, as aquascaping tweezers are often in water!  Cheaper tweezers will rust quickly, as I have experienced.

For your interest, medical/surgical tweezers are also very expensive.  Far more so than ADA.

Whilst it's true that there maybe a considerable mark-up on some aquarium products, you do generally get what you pay with regards aquarium gear.  Having tried out, for instance, many types of tweezers, the more expensive do meet perfectly and are more comfortable to use.  Whether or not the extra expense is worth the premium is a personal choice, of course.  I used to use my wife's spare make-up tweezers for a good while!  They did the job but weren't as nice to use as my present set. 

The same principle can be applied to some glassware too.  For instance there's an element of risk whether or not a 'cheap' glass/ceramic diffuser will produce an effective CO2 mist.  Buy the more expensive models and you can guarantee a greater chance of a decent CO2 mist.   For your interest, my Rhinox 1000 produces the best mist I've seen from any diffuser, and I've seen a few!  It also happens to be relatively inexpensive, but whether or not another Rhinox 1000 would produce the same results is another story.  My Rhinox 2000 and 5000 for instance were poor in comparison.


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## Dan Crawford (26 Feb 2009)

Just to add to the tweezer thoughts, I have a set of ADA tweezers and I swear on my lively hood that they are WELL worth it, i've used about 6, maybe 7 different pairs of tweezers and these things are in a different league! Precision in every sense.


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## Egmel (26 Feb 2009)

Dan Crawford said:
			
		

> Just to add to the tweezer thoughts, I have a set of ADA tweezers and I swear on my lively hood that they are WELL worth it, i've used about 6, maybe 7 different pairs of tweezers and these things are in a different league! Precision in every sense.


I can see it now, the next UKaps meet up everyone is going to turn up with their tweezers for a tweezer comparison session!


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## Matt Clarke (26 Feb 2009)

Your point about tweezers might be interesting to run as a blind study. Cover up any labels that might show who the manufacturer was, give them to a group of aquascapers to test them out, and get them to rate each set... Hmm. Maybe we should do this in the magazine?


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## JamesM (26 Feb 2009)

I still find it hard to believe that tweezers can cost so much to produce. When I worked for Acco we could produce high quality staplers made from various materials, including aluminium, stainless steel and titanium, that sell for Â£40+. Each item cost less than Â£2 to make. You think tweezers cost more than that to produce? I very much doubt it.


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## George Farmer (26 Feb 2009)

Egmel said:
			
		

> Dan Crawford said:
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Done that already at the UKAPS meet at my place when we first started out in Summer '07!



			
				Matt Clarke said:
			
		

> Your point about tweezers might be interesting to run as a blind study. Cover up any labels that might show who the manufacturer was, give them to a group of aquascapers to test them out, and get them to rate each set... Hmm. Maybe we should do this in the magazine?


Sounds like a superb idea, Matt!


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## Egmel (27 Feb 2009)

For it to be a true blind study you'd have to get people on the panel who don't tend to use them at home.  Otherwise they'll know the tell-tale signs even if you cover up the labels.  It's so easy to be unconsciously swayed by something as simple as the knurling on the grips being the same as the ones you're used to - then of course you have the problem that they're not used to using them and might not be as good at critiquing them as the regular users!


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## Fluidsensoronline (27 Feb 2009)

Glass is class.



But -


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## aaronnorth (27 Feb 2009)

lol firearms.

I think glassware looks good -if you can afford them, and you are serious about aquascaping then definatley buy them.


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## Dave Spencer (1 Mar 2009)

"However, if you take your typical â€œcheapâ€ lily pipe and drop the water level with the filter running, you'll see that the water is actually forced through a tight, narrow bend and when it leaves the mouth it does so via a single jet, and isn't actually deflected against the sides at all, making it a complete waste of time." 

                                                                                          Jeremy Gay

I have just had another look at this poor attempt at stirring up a hornets nest (using staged, pre prepared glass work  ), and I think he should do a little reading up on fluid mechanics.  

The stream of water will behave totally different under water compared to the different diffusion effects in air under the full effect of gravity.

Dave.


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## Dan Crawford (1 Mar 2009)

I couldn't agree more Dave! I was thinking just the same the other night. I'm gonna do a test with food dye in the filter, film it and see how it goes....


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## Egmel (2 Mar 2009)

Dan Crawford said:
			
		

> I couldn't agree more Dave! I was thinking just the same the other night. I'm gonna do a test with food dye in the filter, film it and see how it goes....


Oooh, now that would look funky!  If you find the dye disperses too quickly you could try some glitter or something instead.


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## beeky (2 Mar 2009)

While we're talking of outrageous prices, how about Â£5 for a piece of plastic tube? Eheim and the like have been charging riduculous prices for years.


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## mjenner (2 Mar 2009)

Regarding plastic tube, yep, total rip off! I've just had to spend about Â£30 on a new inlet and outlet and another Â£4.90 per meter for tubing when I switched to smooth tubing on my filter!  (granted probably not the cheapest place in the world, my local fish shop, not mAQ, but they're not cheap either...)


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## LondonDragon (7 Mar 2009)

For some nice affordable glassware check here: http://naturalaquario.com/products.php? ... ts=21&id=4


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## Dave Spencer (7 Mar 2009)

The lighting on the previous page looks interesting, Paulo.

Dave.


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## LondonDragon (7 Mar 2009)

Dave Spencer said:
			
		

> The lighting on the previous page looks interesting, Paulo.
> 
> Dave.


If you like I can post some photos of the glassware, light units and tanks and cabinet of the stuff this company makes. I can ask permission to a couple of mates in portugal to use their tank photos. Its pretty impressive and prices are very reasonable.


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## Mark Evans (7 Mar 2009)

ld DO THESE GUYS DELIVER TO THE uk?....(caps lock) sorry

i'm liking the lighting braces?....the thing that lights hang off.


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## LondonDragon (7 Mar 2009)

saintly said:
			
		

> ld DO THESE GUYS DELIVER TO THE uk?....(caps lock) sorry
> i'm liking the lighting braces?....the thing that lights hang off.



They do ship to the UK Mark, I have asked them that already, if you want something email them with the items you are interedted and they will send you a postage charge.


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## mick555 (8 Mar 2009)

well, i ordered two glass co2 difusers from hong kong and broke them both in the same day.


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## Jeremy (11 Mar 2009)

Dave Spencer,

Why do you keep assuming that I cannot aquascape? And that I don't take aquascaping seriously? 

Also that I have no knowledge about flow?

And what are you on about staged? It was seeing the state of Dan's glassware that made me write the blog in the first place, and the fact that he had broken a load of it without any help from me.

Please calm down. 

It is quite amazing how balanced this (ukaps,) discussion is.

Most people who have used lots of it, have an issue or two with it, so why get so defensive?

Being able to question things and come up with our own ideas is what we should all be doing.

Look at Plant Brain.


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## John Starkey (11 Mar 2009)

Ooohhh touched a nerve there i think,     regards john.


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## JamesM (11 Mar 2009)

Jeremy said:
			
		

> Being able to question things and come up with our own ideas is what we should all be doing.
> 
> Look at Plant Brain.




Amen to that.


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## Dave Spencer (11 Mar 2009)

Jeremy said:
			
		

> Dave Spencer...
> ...Please calm down.
> .



"This is a blog Sylivia!

I am inviting ranting..."

Jeremy Gay.

You wanted a rant Jeremy, and you got it. I had no intention of posting on PFK, but all the bling etc...crap got my back up, and I`m not very good at biting my tongue. Should I apologise for being passionate about aquascaping?

I don`t ask people to justify having Arrowanas in empty tanks with a few plant pots, which look like an abomination to me, and I certainly don`t get involved with these people, making silly, ill informed statements about their niche in the hobby.

You are a decent bloke Jeremy, but I don`t have to justify what I spend my hard earned on to you. That blog was ill thought out and your arguments were patently untrue.

As for fluid mechanics....do you dose an y coloured liquids such as TPN? Drop a dose in to the outflow of an immersed lily pipe. Does the coloured fluid drop straight to the bottom of the tank?

As for thinking and questioning for myself..... I can`t be bothered to reply to this bit. Rant over.

Dave.


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## GreenNeedle (11 Mar 2009)

> Also that I have no knowledge about flow?



You may have knowledge about flow but didn't show you have by comparing the flow of water through air and suggesting that is the way the flow would be underwater!!



> What are you on about staged?


Yes Dan's glassware was broken.  Yes many people do break glassware.  I don't and I am pretty careless and aggressive with most things I touch. lol

You then went on a rant over how it goes green very easily.  Look at Dave or my or other tanks where the pipes haven't been cleaned for weeks.  They are brown from errrr.  detritus and fish poop etc.  Guess what.  they are the same things the plastic pipes get covered with.  Using Dans was staged because his weren't in situ in his balanced tank to get like that!!!

This discussion is balanced because in the main most of us are quite happy for others to use different equipment without having a moan about them using it.  In many cases people can actually get better reviews than other sources because they are seeing the results of the equipment used over time in working conditions rather than staged tests done on setups purely for the test.



> Look at Plant Brain.


Maybe you should do this yourself before saying that total diffusion is the aim.  Tom is clearly of the opinion that misting is best and that means keeping bubbles in the water not making them dissolve into the water.

The reason you got this response on your blog wasn't because you had a moan about glassware.  People can moan about what they like.  It is purely because the examples you used and then the statements about their use or intentions of positioning etc were totally incorrect.

You also left out some vital pieces when thinking about flow restrictions.  Maybe the smaller entries do restrict intake but you went on about tight bends in the inlet/outlets.  What is different between these and the corners on plastic attachments.  I would guess that smooth glass bends are much less of a restriction than plastic corners.  which is the smoother surface?  I will not say which because I do not know.  I know which I would assume but for me to say that it was fact would start a rant   

AC


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## Steve Smith (24 Mar 2009)

I've started using a lily outlet on one of my tanks and it does make a difference to the flow pattern.  Before I was using the outlet from my EX700 and this was quite a direct jet of water flowing right to left along the front of the tank.  Now it's set up the same, but I get that vortex effect.  It draws surface water in (depending on the water level) and spits it out.  When it's out of the water it's just a bit of a messy jet of water, no much different to the normal outlet.

Flow is definitely a little better


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