# Anoxic filtration: An Interview with Kevin Novak. pecktec video link



## Sarpijk (15 Nov 2020)

Hi, I am very interested in hearing your opinion. There is certainly a good deal in science behind this.He provides some very interesting arguments.


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## Mr.Shenanagins (15 Nov 2020)

I used to follow him, but some of his logic doesn’t make sense. He completely rejects fertilization of any planted tank.


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## Sarpijk (15 Nov 2020)

Mr.Shenanagins said:


> I used to follow him, but some of his logic doesn’t make sense. He completely rejects fertilization of any planted tank.


Hi, I believe that there is video in which he does talk about fertilisers.


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## dw1305 (15 Nov 2020)

Hi all,


Sarpijk said:


> Hi, I am very interested in hearing your opinion.


We have a <"couple of Dr Novak threads">. I think his biocensosis buckets may work, but not in the way he thinks.

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee (15 Nov 2020)

Hi @Sarpijk 

It's a shame that the video is so long. I've looked at snippets from it. I have heard of Dr Kevin Novak somewhere but I can't remember where. Have you formed any conclusions about his anoxic filtration system?

JPC


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## jaypeecee (15 Nov 2020)

dw1305 said:


> I think his biocensosis buckets may work, but not in the way he thinks.


Hi @dw1305 

How do you think they may work, Darrel? And, do you think they could be used in an aquarium instead of a pond?

JPC


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## dw1305 (15 Nov 2020)

Hi all,


jaypeecee said:


> How do you think they may work, Darrel?


I think that the biocenosis buckets produce nitrate via conventional aerobic nitrification. A picture is worth a thousand words, and this picture (<"Dr Novak's blog">) tells me <"all I need to know">.






There might also be anaerobic denitrification deeper inside the container.


jaypeecee said:


> And, do you think they could be used in an aquarium instead of a pond?


Yes, the deep sand beds (that marine aquarists use) work on this principle. People have tried <"denitrification coils, Jaubert plenums etc.">. I think @foxfish knows more than I do.

cheers Darrel


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## Sarpijk (15 Nov 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Sarpijk
> 
> It's a shame that the video is so long. I've looked at snippets from it. I have heard of Dr Kevin Novak somewhere but I can't remember where. Have you formed any conclusions about his anoxic filtration system?
> 
> JPC


I am in no way qualified to say if the whole method is legit. I respect the fact he mentioned his background in research and how he used his findings in the pond hobby and subsequently in aquariums. 

I do not need a no water change aquarium ( nor do I live in a place with water shortage that would deem it impossible). What I find intriguing is the statement that nitrates are equally bad as ammonia and the fact that while in the 60's undergravel filters were the norm, they became obsolete for the shake of "progress".

The main premise is that the water needs to move through the substrate as it does in nature. 

He seems to know the hobby though.


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## foxfish (15 Nov 2020)

I am not a technical expert but I have successfully used plenums in marine tanks, freshwater tanks and koi ponds.
The koi pond method that seems to have worked amazingly well is based on a deep suspended bed of gravel that is heavy planted and has flowing water over the water surface.
I have one very large pond (10,000 gallons) that has worked on this system for close to 35 years.
I have built many koi pond over a 30 year period that were designed to use many different filter systems as the hobby developed but the few that used a separate pond plenum filter method have always remained the most heathy or at least appear to be,  with clear water, happy fish and little unwanted algae !
Other high  flow filter methods even the ones with auto daily back flush,  seem to have more suspended partials and unwanted algae than the large suspended gravel bed method.
It would be interesting to see what lives under the gravel after 35 years but I have never had a reason to check... quite possibly a mass of roots or decomposed roots, I really don’t know.


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## dw1305 (15 Nov 2020)

Hi all,


Sarpijk said:


> What I find intriguing is the statement that nitrates are equally bad as ammonia


That is one problem I have with him, a lot of the statements <"he makes are definitely wrong">, and if his baskets work, they don't work for the reason given. In his blog he says


> Each biocenosis basket acts like a giant magnet that attracts ions (positive ions) out of solution; I explain that in my blog. So the nitrogen cycle as you know it and have explained, is not relevant with the Anoxic filter. High oxygen loving bacteria are not its primary reliance; that is only with conventional filtration.


Which is just b*llocks.



foxfish said:


> The koi pond method that seems to have worked amazingly well is based on a deep suspended bed of gravel that is heavy planted and has flowing water over the water surface.


You were just ahead of your time, these are the <"Horizontal Flow Constructed Wetlands"> that are now used  a lot in waste water treatment.

cheers Darrel


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## Mr.Shenanagins (15 Nov 2020)

The only video I enjoyed was the one on using normal LED lightbulbs and removing the diffuser to get better output. He’s definitely educated but his info can be misleading and confusing to novice aquarists.


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## Soilwork (15 Nov 2020)

when I pulled my old soil tank down.  I could feel varying degrees of temperature within the substrate with my fingers (cold spots). Although now I’m not sure if I imagined this and have blown it up in my mind what I am sure about is that the smell of rotting eggs nearly knocked me out.  
Point in case is that hydrogen sulphide production occurs at a lower redox value than denitrification so If i had this gas then I most definitely had denitrification.  I don’t see the point in this.  You just leave the substrate well alone.


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## tiger15 (21 Nov 2020)

There have been many discussions in fish forums on adopting deep sand system as used in saltwater, but it has not gotten traction in freshwater. Saltwater has more diverse fauna in live deep sand to carry out denitrification more efficiently than in freshwater. Making artificial saltwater is expensive and tedious, so saltwater folks employ every biochemical filtration option available to minimize WC. Freshwater is cheap and the easiest way to achieve nitrate reduction is do water change or to grow plants.

Having deep sand in freshwater has minimal benefit as denitrification is too slow to worth the effort. Nevertheless, denitrification kits are sold by a few vendors as snake oil.

I am a long time cichlid keeper and recent aquascaper. I have always maintained very thin substrate barely to cover the bottom as the aerobic zone is no deeper than 1/2 inch, so more depth is not needed. My cichlid will dig and having deep sand risk getting stirred up to release toxic gases. I keep mostly epiphytes attached to rock and potted plants, so I don't need thick substrate to root plants. Moreover, having deep substrate reduces the volume available for my fish and plants.


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## Witcher (21 Nov 2020)

Mr.Shenanagins said:


> He completely rejects fertilization of any planted tank.


That's technically possible

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...garden-thriving-40-years-fresh-air-water.html


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## dw1305 (21 Nov 2020)

Hi all,


Witcher said:


> That's technically possible


We have a <"thread about this">.

cheers Darrel


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## tiger15 (21 Nov 2020)

Witcher said:


> That's technically possible
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...garden-thriving-40-years-fresh-air-water.html


If this simple sealed bottle garden experiment is truly successful, the complex Biosphere experiment in Arizona, US is an embarrassing multi million $ failure.  The biosphere is not self sustainable as scientists had miscalculated the sustainability of oxygen cycle, among other life supporting parameters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosphere_2


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## bugs (6 Mar 2021)

Apologies for digging up an old thread but it's relevant... I've just stumbled upon this theory and it has piqued my interest. Casting my mind back, the single most successful planted aquarium I had, in term of being genuinely algae free, included a heated cable in the gravel. I also enjoyed great plant growth. It was my most successful tank. I never experienced the build up of black nor algae in the tank. The glass stayed very clean. I discarded the cable in all tanks since then and have have always fought with algae. There are invetibly other variables such as type of lighting, fish being kept, the plant choices etc but I do find myself wondering about the role of the heated cable gently keeping the gravel from stagnating.


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## Soilwork (6 Mar 2021)

bugs said:


> Apologies for digging up an old thread but it's relevant... I've just stumbled upon this theory and it has piqued my interest. Casting my mind back, the single most successful planted aquarium I had, in term of being genuinely algae free, included a heated cable in the gravel. I also enjoyed great plant growth. It was my most successful tank. I never experienced the build up of black nor algae in the tank. The glass stayed very clean. I discarded the cable in all tanks since then and have have always fought with algae. There are invetibly other variables such as type of lighting, fish being kept, the plant choices etc but I do find myself wondering about the role of the heated cable gently keeping the gravel from stagnating.



How long was this tank setup?  In my experience, the most successful tanks are those that are set up for a long period of time.  They tend to be extremely stable and very resilient in terms of algae growth.  Could it be that the method you used was just coincidental?  

Just a thought.

Regards
CJ


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## bugs (6 Mar 2021)

It was set up for some time but was stable from day one. I can absolutely accept that it was coincidental - I got lucky, and the cable had nothing to do with anything.


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## jaypeecee (6 Mar 2021)

bugs said:


> Casting my mind back, the single most successful planted aquarium I had, in term of being genuinely algae free, included a heated cable in the gravel. I also enjoyed great plant growth. It was my most successful tank.


Hi @bugs 

I've never used an under-substrate heating cable. But, I sometimes wonder why they appear to have slipped into oblivion. Or, is that only in Old Blighty? Was it Horst and Kipper in Germany that pioneered this? I can understand the principle on which they're based but were/are they effective? I see that both JBL and Dennerle still have them in their product lines:









						The substrate heating
					

Why does a substrate heating promote plant growth? How does a substrate heating work?




					www.jbl.de
				












						DENNERLE ThermoTronic Bed Hater 12 V
					





					www.aquaristikshop.com
				




JPC


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## Rockfella (13 Oct 2021)

I recently set up a 215 liter tank. Day 3/4 tank cycling I accidently injected more than needed ammonia (fishless cycle) and ammonia shot to 8 ppm. 2 BCBs and 3/4" gravel (I don't know what worked. My guess is the clay in the BCB) wiped out 8ppm ammonia to 0 in 48 hours. I think it was damn fast and impressive. Of all I had read 4/6ppm ammonia takes a week to get to 0.


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## dw1305 (13 Oct 2021)

Hi all,


Rockfella said:


> Day 3/4 tank cycling I accidently injected more than needed ammonia (fishless cycle) and ammonia shot to 8 ppm. 2 BCBs and 3/4" gravel (I don't know what worked. My guess is the clay in the BCB) wiped out 8ppm ammonia to 0 in 48 hours. I think it was damn fast and impressive. Of all I had read 4/6ppm ammonia takes a week to get to 0.


I'm not personally a fan of adding ammonia. I like <"plant the tank and wait"> until the plants are grown in method. The advantages of this are that you get a microbial assemblage that is more relevant to the ammonia level in the tank and you have all the advantages of a planted tank when you eventually add livestock.

Have a look at our <"Talking to Dr Tim Hovanec"> thread, it has a bit more of an explanation about the microbes that <"actually perform nitrification"> and why they aren't the ones <"we thought they were">.

We don't really know how <"Biocenosis Buckets"> but it is probably via conventional nitrification, in which case, assuming you had plenty of oxygen in the tank your quick oxidation of ammonia result maybe accurate.

Measuring ammonia/ammonium <"is slightly problematic">, which is one of the advantages of _plant and wait_, it removes the need for accurate measurement of any form of fixed nitrogen.

cheers Darrel


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## Rockfella (4 Nov 2021)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm not personally a fan of adding ammonia. I like <"plant the tank and wait"> until the plants are grown in method. The advantages of this are that you get a microbial assemblage that is more relevant to the ammonia level in the tank and you have all the advantages of a planted tank when you eventually add livestock.
> 
> ...


I liked the ammonia method as I found it very easy to work (It was my first ever tank cycling) with and it is definitely fast. I dumped 15 mbunas in the tank as soon as I could once the cycle was over. Can't do that with other methods.


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## dw1305 (4 Nov 2021)

Hi all,


Rockfella said:


> and it is definitely fast. I dumped 15 mbunas in the tank as soon as I could once the cycle was over. Can't do that with other methods.


No, you can't. This it is a circumstance where <"ammonia based cycling"> maybe your only option. The issue for me would be that the canister filter is then a single point of failure and that <"eventual disaster is inevitable"> if you don't add some more nitrification capacity.

I've slightly revised my view in light of the <"insane stocking density"> revelations in <"Bio Media for Planted Tanks">.  I'm not a mbuna keeper, but if I was to keep a group of highly aggressive and herbivorous fish (let's say _Tropheus _sp.) I would want to keep them in a tank with a planted trickle filter, because they are the <"Rolls Royce of filters">.

cheers Darrel


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## Rockfella (4 Nov 2021)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> No, you can't. This it is a circumstance where <"ammonia based cycling"> maybe your only option. The issue for me would be that the canister filter is then a single point of failure and that <"eventual disaster is inevitable"> if you don't add some more nitrification capacity.
> 
> ...


I have a cheap diy overhead sump just large enough to hold 2 of my BCBS in a chamber so that mechanically filtered water just flows around it not through it. The baskets have spacers underneath so that water flows around it (top right left and bottom too). Anoxic filteration "bugs" kick in after 2/3 months and I'm waiting for it as those bugs gotta do a lot of work .. because my tap water has 40/80ppm nitrates. So any water changes I do doesn't reduce nitrates in both my tanks. We'll see what happens. Point of failures are the pumps pumping water in the sump. 2 of them. 4" coral gravel substrate with slow water moving plenum underneath.


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## dw1305 (4 Nov 2021)

Hi all,


Rockfella said:


> Anoxic filteration "bugs" kick in after 2/3 months and I'm waiting for it as those bugs gotta do a lot of work .. because my tap water has 40/80ppm nitrates.


I would very strongly recommend adding some plants, would a floating one (like Nile Cabbage (_Pistia stratiotes_)) work with your over tank filter (is there enough light?).

It isn't that the anaerobic denitrification of NO3- and out-gassing as N2 gas doesn't work, it can do, but the advantage of plant growth is that it allows you to <"see how much fixed nitrogen is being removed from the water"> in plant growth.

This picture <"from earlier in the thread"> suggests to me that the "biocenosis buckets" are working mainly by conventional aerobic nitrification, which isn't going to help you with nitrate (NO3-) reduction, but it will help reduce ammonia (NH3) and nitrite (NO2-) levels.





This is from <"Optimization of the phytoremediation conditions of wastewater in post-treatment by _Eichhornia crassipes_ and _Pistia stratiotes_: kinetic model for pollutants removal">. 


> _........... In the case of P. stratiotes, 93.9% of PO43−; 83.4% of NO3−, 99.5% of NH4+ and 84.4% of COD were removed._


cheers Darrel


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## Rockfella (4 Nov 2021)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I would very strongly recommend adding some plants, would a floating one (like Nile Cabbage (_Pistia stratiotes_)) work with your over tank filter (is there enough light?).
> 
> ...


I used bottled drinking water (20 liter cans) initially .. while cycling the nitrates were never more than 10ppm but I found out later that expensive water had high nitrites! So I switched back to tap water. I have Coontail in mind. Might keep some in a mesh bag in the sump. Yes there is light but the chamber in the SUMP is not that big. We'll see.


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## dw1305 (4 Nov 2021)

Hi all, 


Rockfella said:


> I have Coontail in mind. Might keep some in a mesh bag in the sump.


<"I like _Ceratophyllum demersum_"> (Hornwort or Coontail). It wouldn't be as efficient as a surface floating plant, because it doesn't have access to atmospheric CO2. 

I would definitely let it float free, it needs all the light it can get. 

cheers Darrel


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