# Substrate advice/suggestions



## Vase (15 Jan 2009)

Right, as some of you probably know I'm gradually planning my main tank, so when I get things sorted (in the next 10,000 years) I can actually set it up and it should run smoothly. The thing thats getting me at the moment is substrate. I just cant choose, but I hoped if I posted some things that I need out of it, you guys would be able to help.

The only things I'm not doing is using 'normal' sand, like playpit etc, or spending 20 gazilion pounds on an ADA substrate. Fair enough ADA stuff might be great but I'm not into the whole get it just because its ADA!

Not sure on the depth to go for but the tank measures 79"x24".

Requirements:
I really like black substrates but this often causes some strains of Discus to 'pepper'. I need to research that a bit more but as far as asthetics go I really like it. It could be a winner!
I'd like it to be fine-ish but not sand, as its a pain to keep clean.
If its cheap that will be a bonus. If I have to pay out Â£250 for eco-complete then I do, but the tank wont be broken down often for obvious reasons. If the substrate looses its 'fertility' or whatever you want to call it after so long then thats tough...lol
I dont have any problems using a 'plain' substrate but I'd really like some suggestions for something underneath that will help the plants, if thats going to be the way to go.

Sorry for all my random posts and questions  :?


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## Themuleous (15 Jan 2009)

To be honest, if you are happy to spend the money on eco-complete, you might just as well get ADA AS!  They cost much the same and the plant growth from AS is far better by all accounts.

Thats not to say EC isn't good, Ive used it with great effect, but its not as good as AS.  If it were me and I had the money I'd get AS.  You can use it long term so you wouldn't need to worry about replacing it anytime soon.

Being a new tank you also have the opportunity to get over the NH3 spike without have to store the fish somewhere in the mean time.

Sam


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## Vase (15 Jan 2009)

Is there a way to calculate how many litres of an ADA substrate I'd need? Or any other for that matter? I need to do some more reasearch on Discus and substrate. But there is always the lighter coloured ADA stuff and Akadama, which is growing on me


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## Simon D (15 Jan 2009)

Hi Vase,

I'm glad you asked the question, I'm intending to up grade my tank, (but this may not happen for six months or a year) so I want to know the same things and have already started planning. 

Maybe, by the time of my new tank ,there will be a diffinitive answer. I'm sure new substrates will be available in the next year that are cleaner and absorb (or hold) more nutrients so I'll have to play it by ear.

Sorry, just realised this doesn't help you at all... lol

Keep us posted! Hope you get an answer!


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## Vase (15 Jan 2009)

No worries mate. If my questions (and their answers) help others then thats great. I've got this thing that when I think about something I need to get it sorted. And substrate always bugs me!


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## Dan Crawford (16 Jan 2009)

Hi mate, if you like a black substrate then you may like the ADA Amazonia and if you like really fine substrate the theres ADA Amazonia Powder here It may be pricey but it'll be better than Eco Complete and the cost won't be too much different, plus, it's re-usable AND it just rocks mate


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## LondonDragon (16 Jan 2009)

Dan Crawford said:
			
		

> Hi mate, if you like a black substrate then you may like the ADA Amazonia and if you like really fine substrate the theres ADA Amazonia Powder here It may be pricey but it'll be better than Eco Complete and the cost won't be too much different, plus, it's re-usable AND it just rocks mate


Just out of curiosity, can you use Powder on its own or you need to use AquaSoil underneath? cheers


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## beeky (16 Jan 2009)

One of the good things about AS is that they give the bag sizes in litres, rather than Kg, so it's easy to work out how much you need.

Your tank is 79"x24" (lovely!), so in new money roughly 200cmx61cm. A substrate depth of 5cm, give a volume of

(200x61x5)/1000 = 61l.

AS bags come in 9l sizes, so that's 61/9 = 7 bags (rounding up).

You may want more if you want slopes, hills etc.

Hope that makes sense. You can use the same calculation for eco-complete, although I don't know if they give bag sizes in litres or Kg.


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## beeky (16 Jan 2009)

Oh, and LD, I've heard people do use the powder on it's own or capping the 'normal', but at powder bags of 3l costing the same as 9l of normal it's alot more expensive.


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## LondonDragon (16 Jan 2009)

beeky said:
			
		

> Hope that makes sense. You can use the same calculation for eco-complete, although I don't know if they give bag sizes in litres or Kg.


1 liter = 1 kilo 




			
				beeky said:
			
		

> Oh, and LD, I've heard people do use the powder on it's own or capping the 'normal', but at powder bags of 3l costing the same as 9l of normal it's alot more expensive.


I would be buying a couple of 9l bags so cost then is not a lot of difference, just prefer the fine granules of the Sand version thats all, if anyone knows for sure let me know, cheers


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## vauxhallmark (16 Jan 2009)

LondonDragon said:
			
		

> beeky said:
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One litre of _water _= 1 kilo (at 4 degrees celcius) - one litre of eco-complete? Wouldn't like to guess!

The only 'featured scape' on this site uses Aquasoil powder over Tropica substrate, but it's tiny. If you're getting two bags anyway you could get one of each, and use the non-powder on the bottom. I've never used powder, but in a deep layer I'd worry about it squashing together and going a bit muddy - perhaps that's not a problem. In the ADA catalogues, etc., TA always uses normal and just uses powder as a cosmetic top layer, sometimes just at the front.

Cheers,

Mark


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## LondonDragon (16 Jan 2009)

vauxhallmark said:
			
		

> One litre of _water _= 1 kilo (at 4 degrees celcius) - one litre of eco-complete? Wouldn't like to guess!


My bad for getting it confused with water  guess it doesn't work that way for soil hehe


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## Dan Crawford (16 Jan 2009)

LondonDragon said:
			
		

> Just out of curiosity, can you use Powder on its own or you need to use AquaSoil underneath? cheers


Yeah man, i have it in little mountain and it rocks, so easy to plant in and it looks great!


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## LondonDragon (16 Jan 2009)

Dan Crawford said:
			
		

> Yeah man, i have it in little mountain and it rocks, so easy to plant in and it looks great!


Thanks Dan, as Mark suggested on large tank will I have problems in future of it becoming too compact? I would just prefer a finer grain substrate. I was thinking 2 9liter bags for my Rio 125.


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## vauxhallmark (16 Jan 2009)

LondonDragon said:
			
		

> Dan Crawford said:
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Oh, I hope you don't think I was saying it _would _be a problem - I think I made clear in my post that I've never used it - just that it would be a concern of mine. Can't wait to see what you do with it.   

Mark


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## Dan Crawford (16 Jan 2009)

It does become compact at the bottom, about halfway up actually but you still don't get any clouding or any problems. I'd pay the extra for a nano but i'm not sure if i had to pay out on a big setup, say over 80cm. It's nice in the nanos because it carries the scale of the tank.


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## LondonDragon (16 Jan 2009)

Dan Crawford said:
			
		

> It does become compact at the bottom, about halfway up actually but you still don't get any clouding or any problems. I'd pay the extra for a nano but i'm not sure if i had to pay out on a big setup, say over 80cm. It's nice in the nanos because it carries the scale of the tank.


Yeah my tank is 80cm I might just get started aquail soil and then if I want it finer in some areas buy a bag of Sand version to cover those areas, I am still keen to do a carpet od some sort so it will be hidden them, I just find Aquasoil not the easiest of soils to plant into.


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## vauxhallmark (16 Jan 2009)

LondonDragon said:
			
		

> Dan Crawford said:
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if I'm ever doing a foreground carpet of small plants I'm deffo using powder in that area of the tank - the big stuff isn't good for holding things down while they root. Especially with the number of shrimps you keep!!    I had to put my glosso in a spare empty tank to get going before it was big enough to put in the main tank and not get 'gardened' up. The powder stuff also looks nicer there are any bare patches of substrate. I thought the last setup (Sep 08) of my 18"er would be the last for a long while, but there are STILL several things I would do differently - use powder on the front, and put in a much bigger slope than it currently has (I forgot what a massive distorting effect water has on a slope when I was trying it out empty!) You lives and learns!

Mark


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## Vase (16 Jan 2009)

beeky said:
			
		

> One of the good things about AS is that they give the bag sizes in litres, rather than Kg, so it's easy to work out how much you need.
> 
> Your tank is 79"x24" (lovely!), so in new money roughly 200cmx61cm. A substrate depth of 5cm, give a volume of
> 
> ...



Thanks mate thats awesome    (and to everyone else obviously)

Well I can get ADA soil for about Â£225 (Green Machine) The Eco complete has to be in flippin' kilos doesnt it!   
I'm quite liking this stuff too.... http://www.thegreenmachineaquatics.com/ ... ingu%208kg but dont really know anything about it, or how much I'd need.

The ADA soil is pretty much at the top of the list. Choice between 'Amazonia' and 'Malaya'. Got a little cube to set up first so I can try some in that and see whether I like it or not.


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## Vase (18 Jan 2009)

> I'm quite liking this stuff too.... http://www.thegreenmachineaquatics.com/ ... ingu%208kg but dont really know anything about it, or how much I'd need.



Does anyone have any info on this? I've been doing my research into substrates and its effects on Discus so I'm looking for potential alternatives to aquasoil that 'lift my skirt'    and that are suitable for the plants and fish.


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## TDI-line (18 Jan 2009)

Hi Vase,

as you are aware, we both have the same tank, i have to say the ADA AS is the best substrate i have used, and personally i would not buy any other after using it.

I bought 14 bags, but these where for 2 tanks originally, but ended up sticking it all in for some rough hills.  

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2347&hilit=destruction

I'm not sure of any ill-effects this has on discus, except for dropping PH by .5  

No power sand was used, or needed.


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## Vase (18 Jan 2009)

Thanks mate, very helpful. I was just looking to see what else there was and the ADA sands caught my eye. Apparently with Discus, a dark substrate affects their colouring causing them to show stress bars and any fish with Pigeon blood genes end up 'peppering' and looking cack. But if there's a nice carpet I'm sure it will be fine.

My tanks going to need a lot of work to get it looking anywhere decent. If you dont mind me asking mate how much did your substrate cost you? I dont like to ask how much things cost (brought up not to) but once I know I can half it and then tell the mrs the price   

Do you have any close up shots of your tank with the substrate. Its helpful seeing a tank the same as mine and what's going on with it. Only so much the imagination can do!


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## TDI-line (18 Jan 2009)

I'm sure you'll Discus will be fine, but you could always use the AS Malaya or Africana as an alternative. As for carpeting, glosso has been very easy with the new substrate, T5's and CO2.

I paid Â£27.99 from AE, but it is available from TGM now, at the same price. So 14 x Â£27.99.    I did research into the alternatives like you, but found them just as expensive, and boy have i wasted money originally setting up with Dennerle.

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=2641

viewtopic.php?f=49&t=4178&hilit=blyxa+bolbitis

No real close up pics, but i'll be taking some more pics next week, and i will take some them.


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## Vase (18 Jan 2009)

I dont want my substrate to bee quite as deep, maybe half, so that should save me top dollar. I was looking at the Malaysia as I like the colour and its a bit different. With a nice lawn of glosso it should brighten up nicely. Blyxa is top of my list now too


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