# Hair algae - I'm now at a loss!



## LancsRick (23 Apr 2013)

Ok, well a few weeks ago I stripped down my Fluval Ebi because I'd lost a battle with hair algae and brown algae on the glass. Despite dropping my lighting I was still not winning (and dosing glut for a short time), so I decided that starting afresh was the best option.

When I put the tank back up, I dropped to a 3 hour photoperiod, and given that the supplied light on the Ebi is really bright, I've put 4 layers of frosted film + a sheet of A4 paper over the top of the tank to knock down the lighting levels.

Despite this, about a month after I redid the tank, I'm getting hair algae reappearing on the ele. acic. sp mini. 

I'm really stumped at this point, as my usual approach of "drop the light intensity and photoperiod" can't really go any further from 3 hours, that level of "obscuring" surely? I'm dosing all-in-one weekly, and running an e700 at half throttle.

I really don't want to go back to dosing glut as I want this to be a low tech tank.

Any and all help appreciated at this point, since I'm clearly doing something wrong, but don't have the foggiest idea what!


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## LondonDragon (23 Apr 2013)

If this is a low tech tank why are you dosing All-in-one solution? You should be keeping that to a minimum and only dose Micro


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## tim (23 Apr 2013)

Are you doing any water changes mate ?


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## LancsRick (23 Apr 2013)

It's not true low tech Paulo I realise, I'll call it "low-ish" tech from now on . Joking aside, the balance I've struck on all my other tanks to avoid high maintenance but preserve plant health has been to dose AIO weekly, keep the lighting low, and avoid CO2.

@Tim - Not of note no. Again, they're something I try to avoid, partly from a maintenance point of view, but also to dodge BBA.


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## Richard Dowling (24 Apr 2013)

Exactly the reason Ive just ripped my Ebi apart and packed it away - Brown Algae and Hair algae! Very frustrating!


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## bridgey_c (24 Apr 2013)

Why shouldn't he be dosing an all-in-one solution?


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## LancsRick (25 Apr 2013)

Any thoughts? I'm at a loss here, since I thought light was the primary reason for hair algae, and I've got so little lighting at the moment I can't help but wonder if there's something else!


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## Viv (27 Apr 2013)

I'm not sure what the protocol is for linking to other forums but this is my first port of call when dealing with algae: The Tropical Tank • View topic - Algae Types & Cures

It's not definitive but I've found it a useful place to start  It doesn't mention light as a cause for hair algae so may give you something else to consider?

Viv


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## Manrock (27 Apr 2013)

I may stand to be corrected but hair algae is usually associated with low levels of CO2. Have you tried using liquid carbon? Also, do you have any 'bio-removal-systems' in place (like shrimps, snails or algae eating fish)?


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## Martin Fletcher (28 Apr 2013)

This goes against a lot of the usual advice but I can almost guarantee this will work *IF* you follow these instructions, it's worked for a lot of others I've helped in the past and for myself!

First thing is to remove as much as possible by hand from the tank and then do a filter clean as well. Only when you have done these two jobs and most importantly DON''T turn the newly cleaned filter on yet - do a large gravel clean and water change, at least 50% but 70% is even better. Once it's been refilled with de chlorinated water of course you can switch the filters back on again. So far, you have removed lots of the algae and by cleaning the filters and doing a large water change you will have got rif of most of the free floating algae spores.

Now the bit you might find contradictory - *increase *your lighting period to at least 10 hours a day, straight through.( It's your reduced lighting period thats triggered brown algae). You are trying to get your plants to photosynthesise and reducing the lighting times stops them from doing so which means they can't take up the natural nutrients in the tank, phosphate and nitrate - this is what is fuelling your hair algae, adding ferts is only making the situation worse by increasing the nutrients to keep the algae happy.

Next, you need to use a liquid carbon, without a carbon source your plants are unable to 'breath' properly and take up the nutrients. Carbon can be provided by either Co2 or in liquid form. Better still you can use both if you have Co2 available! You can buy liquid carbon in many forms, Easycarbo, Neutro Co2, it's all the same. The thing is its poison to many algae types and if you dose higher than the recommended daily dosage most types of algae will reduce and start dying off within days providing your lighting is good - the algae should start to turn yellow and come away after about 7 - 10 days. When you look closely at it, the active ingredient is 'Glutaraldehyde', which is a cleaning agent, used for sterilising equipment in the NHS. The biocidal effect of Glutaraldehyde kills most algae at concentrations of double the recommended dosage and is not harmful to most aquatic plants and fish, while at the same time it increases the plants resistibility against algae. 

So, start double dosing immediately, it's safe to do so and the best time is in the morning before the lights come on so the plants have it available immediately after the lights come on to help them photosynthesise.

As mentioned above, you will notice it starting to pull back after about a week and in 2 weeks it should all be virtually gone. keep double dosing for at least a week after it's cleared up completely and then you can drop back to the normal recommended dosage, and continue dosing and ensure you keep your lights on for a minimum of 10 hours. Mine are on for 11 hours, I do use pressurised Co2 and I also dose Easycarbo - but I don't use ferts which, many will find surprising. I use a completely natural method by ensuring my phosphate / nitrate keep a 1 to 10 ratio, so if I has 2ppm phosphate I would expect to have 20ppm nitrate, it takes a while to get thee 'balance' right but it's worth it when you do.

The above instructions will clear your algae up by encouraging your plants to wake up and start taking up all those nutrients - happy plants = no algae, see the photo below of my tank....


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## DanMac (16 May 2013)

Martin is it fine to use Easycarbo on its own?, I dont use any liquid fertizilers ect.

Also the instructions say to dose 1ml per 100 litres a day for tanks with very few plants,my tank is 54 litres so what would be the best thing to do?

Appreciate it, cheers.


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## Martin Fletcher (16 May 2013)

Hi Dan,
Yes, you really need to be using a liquid carbon, EasyCarbo is a good one but there are others. If you are having algae problems you can double dose EC to clear it up and you should use a double dose in a heavily planted tank anyway.

I would suggest dosing 1ml daily, which is more or less a double dose, and I've found it's best to do it in the morning before the lights come on so it's in the water ready for when the plants start to photosynthesise.

Hope that helps.


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## DanMac (17 May 2013)

That sounds perfect,cheers.


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## sciencefiction (17 May 2013)

> and running an e700 at half throttle.


 
Why are you running the flow on half throttle? Even a low tech tank can do with good flow. It's the surface movement that decides how much CO2 you preserve from fish respiration and decomposition in a low tech, but flow around the tank is a good thing. I'd also suggest using floating plants to reduce the intensity of light and go back up to 7-8hrs. You don't want to bring your plants to a stall and not growing as that's not helping outcompeting the algae. Try reducing the surface movement instead a bit to preserve CO2(observe the fish), and increase the plant mass, fast growers of some sort if you can, floaters is best as they are easier to control and use aerial CO2.

I think you've got issues with trace ammonia level and low flow if you are having diatoms and hair algae. Possibly fine debris collecting over the leaves too, attracting algae and the water is too stagnant not spreading the ferts and the little naturally produced CO2 around. I'd put that filter back on full power.  I am not sure what your stock level is and the filter may not be coping at the moment cycling it properly, and unhealthy plants not taking care of that trace ammonia complicate it even further.
In my low tech tanks, I almost don't dose anything at all. I dose only when I see defficiencies of some sort and that's rare, although it happens. They are fairly overfiltered though, 10x flow, and I still have to trim the plants bi-weekly.


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## dw1305 (17 May 2013)

Hi all,


sciencefiction said:


> Why are you running the flow on half throttle? Even a low tech tank can do with good flow. It's the surface movement that decides how much CO2 you preserve from fish respiration and decomposition in a low tech, but flow around the tank is a good thing.


I like lots of flow, or lots of water turn over at least, as well. Low tech you actually usually get more CO2 (and O2) in the water with a large gas exchange surface, this is because the water is nearer to equilibrium with atmospheric gas levels. This is largely the reason for "wet and dry" trickle filters being so effective for biological filtration, they have a huge gas exchange surface where the thin film of water is flowing over the filter media.

cheers Darrel


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## sciencefiction (17 May 2013)

What would the levels of CO2 be if the water is nearer to equilibrium Darrel?
I meant in a scenario where a tank has some sort of decomposition in the soil, like a Diana Walstad tank. She does not recommend surface movement at all because the levels of CO2 from that are higher than when the water is at equilbrium.


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## Alastair (17 May 2013)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I like lots of flow, or lots of water turn over at least, as well. Low tech you actually usually get more CO2 (and O2) in the water with a large gas exchange surface, this is because the water is nearer to equilibrium with atmospheric gas levels. This is largely the reason for "wet and dry" trickle filters being so effective for biological filtration, they have a huge gas exchange surface where the thin film of water is flowing over the filter media.
> 
> cheers Darrel



This is what ill be doing also, having the co2 produced from the decomposing soil but also the co2 introduced into the water column via gas exchange on the surface too. Think I read it on one of your posts on another forum darrel 

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## dw1305 (17 May 2013)

Hi all,


sciencefiction said:


> What would the levels of CO2 be if the water is nearer to equilibrium Darrel?


The back-ground atmospheric CO2 level is now 400ppm (reported this week from Mauna Loa <Climate Milestone: Earth's CO2 Level Nears 400 ppm>), but in houses it will usually be a bit higher, 600ppm'ish. This compares to about 20% oxygen, but because of their differential solubilities you end up with about  8ppm (mg/l) for oxygen and 0.4 ppm CO2 (in pure H2O at standard temperature and pressure). 


sciencefiction said:


> I meant in a scenario where a tank has some sort of decomposition in the soil, like a Diana Walstad tank. She does not recommend surface movement at all because the levels of CO2 from that are higher than when the water is at equilbrium.


 
This is going to depend upon the stocking and level of decomposition, but for most scenarios you actually do better with more water turn over, as these low levels of CO2 are continually replenished. If you have water with a huge BOD, like landfill leachate, out-gassing the CO2 becomes a real problem. In a still, deep tank the aerobic decomposition of organic matter could be an important factor in adding CO2, but the lower levels of the tank are likely to become de-oxygenated.

Aquatic plants are CO2 limited in growth, and as you can see the 20-30ppm of CO2 added in high tech is many times the natural level.


Alastair said:


> This is what ill be doing also, having the co2 produced from the decomposing soil but also the co2 introduced into the water column via gas exchange on the surface too. Think I read it on one of your posts on another forum darrel


Probably in here: <plecoplanet: Aeration and dissolved oxygen in the aquarium>

cheers Darrel


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## sciencefiction (17 May 2013)

Thanks Darrel. It's hard to get it right as I read totally different stuff each time and have no way of measuring it, plus it depends on the tank. I've been experimenting with all my tanks with the surface movement to see if it makes much difference to the plants and fish.
According to Diana Walstad, the levels of CO2 from decomposition in the soil, if you get the stock/feeding right, is higher than from surface agitation. Hence she stresses out the importance of not having surface movement because you are wasting it.
Also, the lower levels of the tank won't be affected as you can have flow around the tank, but not much surface movement, plus most of the CO2 comes from the soil.
I've seen Big Tom's bucket of mud journal and his tank seems to be following a similar principle, there's little to none surface movement.


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## Alastair (17 May 2013)

sciencefiction said:


> Thanks Darrel. It's hard to get it right as I read totally different stuff each time and have no way of measuring it, plus it depends on the tank. I've been experimenting with all my tanks with the surface movement to see if it makes much difference to the plants and fish.
> According to Diana Walstad, the levels of CO2 from decomposition in the soil, if you get the stock/feeding right, is higher than from surface agitation. Hence she stresses out the importance of not having surface movement because you are wasting it.
> Also, the lower levels of the tank won't be affected as you can have flow around the tank, but not much surface movement, plus most of the CO2 comes from the soil.
> I've seen Big Tom's bucket of mud journal and his tank seems to be following a similar principle, there's little to none surface movement.



I also followed in toms foot steps with my journal but had a fair bit of surface movement and my plants flourished  

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## sciencefiction (17 May 2013)

Alastair said:


> I also followed in toms foot steps with my journal but had a fair bit of surface movement and my plants flourished
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9305 using Tapatalk 2


 
Thanks Alastair. That's great to know. I actually read yours also(Chocolate puddle . Your tank was amazing. I totally love it. Did you receive the bigger tank?
Can I ask you if you kept anthurium lilies(I've got flamingo flower today) as I was wondering since it's poisonous to cats, dogs, fish and reptiles, whether it's going to be ok in the aquarium with fish and inverts?
And in regards to the parlour palm, did you manage to grow it in the aquarium successfully, or should I not even try? I actually just potted one in a planter with clay pebbles and a bit of soil, capped, but after reading a bit I am not sure it can do well.


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## Alastair (17 May 2013)

sciencefiction said:


> Thanks Alastair. That's great to know. I actually read yours also(Chocolate puddle . Your tank was amazing. I totally love it. Did you receive the bigger tank?
> Can I ask you if you kept anthurium lilies(I've got flamingo flower today) as I was wondering since it's poisonous to cats, dogs, fish and reptiles, whether it's going to be ok in the aquarium with fish and inverts?
> And in regards to the parlour palm, did you manage to grow it in the aquarium successfully, or should I not even try? I actually just potted one in a planter with clay pebbles and a bit of soil, capped, but after reading a bit I am not sure it can do well.



Must apologise to the original poster for going off topic first lol 

But thanks. I loved the tank alot. Miss it but hope new one is on par.  The replacement bigger tank is here Sunday morning due to a delay with transport issues.  

Yes I kept antherium lilys, so did tom infact it was his originally.  It has no harmful effects to any fauna at all, its only if digested and thats the leaf part and or spathes I believe.  They grow beautifully as a riparium plant. 

The parlour palm didn't like being under the light source so I just moved it to the corner of the tank and didnt plant it just left it rested with its roots free in the water. It spruced up a bit but in the year I had it it grew two leaves very very slowly. 

Pothos is a great one to try and trails along the back of the tank beautifully.  This is how much its grown in two months of being sat in the storage tub. ... no planter again just free floating roots. Bit messy as its just left untrimmed at the moment






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## sciencefiction (17 May 2013)

Apologies for going off topic too. 
Thanks Alastair. I'll grab some pothos too next time. I am planning manzanita sticks and oak leaves tank unplanted, but planting the trickle filter with emersed house plants instead with a prefilter on the intake. And I've got an open top planted tank in which I am chancing emersed plants into it already, thanks to Tom and yourself mainly.
I can't wait to see your new journal too. It's going to be great I am certain.


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## dw1305 (18 May 2013)

Hi all,


sciencefiction said:


> According to Diana Walstad, the levels of CO2 from decomposition in the soil, if you get the stock/feeding right, is higher than from surface agitation. Hence she stresses out the importance of not having surface movement because you are wasting it. Also, the lower levels of the tank won't be affected as you can have flow around the tank, but not much surface movement, plus most of the CO2 comes from the soil.


I'm a great fan of Diana Walstad, but I think she is wrong here and I also think all tanks are better with regular water changes, even low tech ones. It is difficult to measure dissolved CO2 levels, in fact this is true of any dissolved gas, but even in a situation with an organic sediment producing lots of CO2, it will rapidly be depleted during photosynthesis.

The real problems come when the oxygen production from photosynthesis ceases and the plants start contributing to the bio-load, in this case fish are likely to be affected by high CO2 & low O2 levels. How fish are affected will depend upon Bohr-Root effect,  <Root effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia> with some fish, Anabantoids, carp and some catfish etc, totally un-effected, and others (_Hypancistrus_ etc) rapidly suffering respiratory distress and death.


sciencefiction said:


> I've seen Big Tom's bucket of mud journal and his tank seems to be following a similar principle, there's little to none surface movement.


 Tom can tell you more, but this was a wide shallow tank with low stocking, and in that case you have less problem due to the large surface area to volume ratio.


sciencefiction said:


> Can I ask you if you kept anthurium lilies(I've got flamingo flower today) as I was wondering since it's poisonous to cats, dogs, fish and reptiles, whether it's going to be ok in the aquarium with fish and inverts?


All Aroids are poisonous to some degree, including _Cryptocoryne_ and _Anubias_ spp., and I don't expect it to be a problem.


sciencefiction said:


> I am planning manzanita sticks and oak leaves tank unplanted, but planting the trickle filter with emersed house plants instead with a prefilter on the intake. And I've got an open top planted tank in which I am chancing emersed plants into it already


Sounds great, I love planted trickle filters. I've used the deBruyn type a lot <http://www.aka.org/UserFiles/File/debruyn_filter.pdf>, and we used to have some huge ones in the lab based on guttering and large diameter piping.

cheers Darrel 

cheers Darrel


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## BigTom (18 May 2013)

I certainly ran without a filter for a long time, with minimal surface movement. However as Darrel pointed out that was with a low fish stocking and and very large SA:volume ratio. These days with more fish in the tank I run an Eheim 2324 which provides lots of surface movement.

I couldn't even begin to hazard a guess as to what the balance is of co2 entering the water column from the atmosphere vs coming from the soil, but with a lot of surface area and surface water movement my gut thinks that both o2 and co2 should be pretty stable around whatever their natural dissolved concentrations are.

I'm sure Darrel will correct me if that sounds well off the mark.


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## sciencefiction (18 May 2013)

Thanks Darrel and Tom.
With surface movement sometimes people also have different understanding about it.  I've never attempted no surface movement at all as I find it hard to believe that all those oxygen demanding processes, fish and all can cope with none in a very well stocked tank, especially that I've noticed a few issues along the way with some tanks.  But personally I've found out that what people consider fine surface movement, to me is little or now surface movement in most cases.

What level of surface movement do you consider this tank has?


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## BigTom (18 May 2013)

Well, slightly more than I have now, anyway. Mine's from a duck-bill pipe rather than a spraybar though so more localised.

'Enough' for any sensible setup, I'd say.


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## sciencefiction (18 May 2013)

Thanks Tom. It's actually not a spraybar, but the filter flow hitting the back glass causes the water to travel forward.
And the tank is on and off sufferer of BBA. But in warmer weather when the temps go up I have to keep that way as I had issues in another tank last summer with lesser surface movement, some sudden deaths when the temps of the tank hit 29-30 C(fish just fell dead in front of my eyes) where I run this tank like a washing machine as it's deep(65cm+) and all fish were perfectly fine, but it isn't helping the plants to be honest as that's the only tank I have algae in. I have good surface movement in other tanks but not quite as much.

Here is a better one I took from today:


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## dw1305 (20 May 2013)

Hi all,


BigTom said:


> but with a lot of surface area and surface water movement my gut thinks that both o2 and co2 should be pretty stable around whatever their natural dissolved concentrations are.


 I think you are probably on the money, unfortunately we can't really measure any of the parameters without some pretty expensive kit, so we have to use pH, fish behaviour and plant growth as an indicator.

There has been a lot of work in commercial aquaculture on DO/CO2, but CO2 is only really of interest at high levels, so as long as systems out-gas it fairly efficiently you don't need to know the levels. The basic equation is that; when you add oxygen, either directly or indirectly, you also remove CO2.


sciencefiction said:


> But in warmer weather when the temps go up I have to keep that way as I had issues in another tank last summer with lesser surface movement, some sudden deaths when the temps of the tank hit 29-30 C(fish just fell dead in front of my eyes) where I run this tank like a washing machine as it's deep(65cm+) and all fish were perfectly fine, but it isn't helping the plants to be honest as that's the only tank I have algae in. I have good surface movement in other tanks but not quite as much.


This is why a lot of fish death, related to low dissolved oxygen levels, happen at night during thundery weather in the summer, it really is the "perfect storm". Warm water can hold less dissolved oxygen (same for all gases), and low atmospheric pressure also reduces the solubility of gases, if you don't increase the active gas exchange surface then you have the "double whammy" and dead fish. 





sciencefiction said:


> And the tank is on and off sufferer of BBA


I think probably all low tech tanks get a bit of BBA, I have Red Ramshorn snails that browse it from hard surfaces, but I get it growing on filter sponges etc.

*Some aquaculture bits*
Because most (all?) commercial fish species don't require soft water, water management is easier in carbonate buffered systems, here are a couple of papers with an introduction to aquaculture: <https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/event/getFactSheet/whichfactsheet/112/> & <https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/event/getFactSheet/whichfactsheet/205/>.

There is a lot of work on more efficient aquaculture systems. This is from Brune, D. _et al. (_2003) _Aquacultural Engineering _28:1, pp. 65:86 "Intensification of pond aquaculture and high rate photosynthetic systems". I'm not sure whether there is open access (I'm at work), but it is a very interesting paper, and I can email a pdf: <ScienceDirect.com -					 Aquacultural Engineering - Intensification of pond aquaculture and high rate photosynthetic systems>. More open access stuff here: <BruneDavidAlgalSystem>




The paper looks at using partitioning of fish and plants ("green water" algae) and using solar driven paddle wheels for aeration


> low energy paddlewheel mixed ponds .... are capable of sustained algal yields of 10–12 g C/m2-day. This three to fourfold increase in algal photosynthesis provides the potential for a similar increase in the rate of pond water detoxification (ammonia removal) while simultaneously providing a solar driven oxygen production system. By superimposing a water velocity field upon the pond it becomes possible to utilize velocity and hydraulic detention time as a controlling strategy in reconfiguring the aquatic ecosystems of pond aquaculture into a series of engineered aquatic processes. High rate photosynthetic systems offer the greatest potential for intensification of pond aquaculture


cheers Darrel


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## sciencefiction (20 May 2013)

Thanks for that info Darrel. I'll have a read through it.



> I think probably all low tech tanks get a bit of BBA, I have Red Ramshorn snails that browse it from hard surfaces, but I get it growing on filter sponges etc.


The tank with the high surface movement that gets algae issues is actually dosed with liquid carbon daily and ferts. My other low tech tanks never had a problem with any algae so I am not certain whether it's the high surface movement exhausting CO2, or something else causing it in this tank, it's just hard to figure how to get a balance but I am experimenting and the algae is minimal, although it's still there. I managed to beat the GSA, now just very little BBA appearance left to figure.  I'd love to put some ramshorns and nerite snails in it but the clown loaches will get to them pretty fast.


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