# Can you help with my dosing schedule?



## Crawdaddy (18 Jun 2013)

Hi all,

I think I may need a bit of a hand with my EI dosing schedule. I was previously using the formula listed on the Aquariumplantfood website. However I was seeing some deficiencies which 'i believe' are nutrient based. I have calculated (perhaps incorrectly) that litre for litre the aquarium plant food dosage is actually some way short or Ceg's recommendations in his EI article. I'm a bit confused. I know that it's all estimative and that we are oversupplying nutrients to overcome shortfall, however I  I am using very high light so the difference might be important.

Can somebody please confirm if my new increased strength formula is on the right track?

First a bit of background:
- My water report is here
- My tank is 70 liters with an 8 litre capacity external filter.
- I use pressurised CO2
- For light I am using a daylight reading lamp. It is supposed to be 11w which the manufacturer claims is the equivalent of between 60w and 70w. Now, I was told (by Ceg no less) that the 60-70w rating is nonsense. However over the first 6 months of the tank's life I have had all sorts of melting problems with 'easy' plants such as crypts, hairgrass and vallis. I now have my CO2 cranked right up, am limited to a 6 hour light period and have the light 21 inches(!!!) above the top of the tank. It might not be 70w but it's certainly more than 11w. So I'm leaning towards believing the manufacturer on this one which would put the wpg at somewhere between 3.5-4 wpg.

With that in mind I went on Jame's planted tank dosing calculator to try and develop a macro mixture based on the aquarium plant food recipe but adjusted to hit the levels listed in Ceg's document and using Jame's calculator. I got the following:

The dose is 20ml, 3x per week.  

- 7 tsp potassium nitrate
- 1 tsp Potassium Phosphate
- 12 tsp Magnesium Sulphate
- 500ml water

a) Does this sound right?
b) What would the recipe for corresponding recipe be for the micros?

Thanks in advance

CD


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## ceg4048 (18 Jun 2013)

Hi mate,
			Melting is caused by poor CO2. It has nothing to do with nutrients. The proposal looks fine but you really need to identify or explain the symptoms. Maybe photos would help. If the tank is 70L but the filter is only 8L then you might want to think about a stronger filter.

Cheers,


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## Crawdaddy (18 Jun 2013)

Hi Ceg,

Thanks for getting back to me. I probably didn't explain that very well as i was trying to keep the post length down.

The filter is a fluval 305 so should have adequate turnover for 70litres. What i meant was that it holds 8 litres of water. I know that most folks wont count that in their dosing calculations but I thought since it made up >10% of my total water volume it might be important.

The melting certainly was a CO2 issue but has since been solved. Basically i was using it as an illustration of the fact that i think my light is actually pretty strong. I haven't checked it with a PAR meter and it's not a standard T5/8 set-up so it's hard to judge. However going by the ammount of C02 dificiency issues i had in the past + the distance it is now away from my tank rim, I now assume I am running quite a high light set-up. After playing about for a few months reduceing the light intensity, reducing surface agitation, increasing CO2, checking flow etc, I finally got my plants to stabalise and start showing healthy sings.

It was at this point i decided to do a rescape and add in some more plants to replace the dead ones. I added in a whole load more crypts and some Cyperus Helferi. They've only been in just over 2 weeks but i've been getting a few of the crypt leaves continue to die off (including on the old plants which were already acclimatised). The symptoms are that the old growth will get small dead patches and yellowing towards the tips of the leaves that will slowly start creeping up the leaf until the whole leaf is yellow/dead. Sorry no photos at the moment as i trimmed all the dying leaves last night.

Now that's not to say the plants aren't still aclimatising to being replanted, or that it's definitely not still a CO2 issue... and if i have learnt one thing on this forum, it is that it is always CO2... but really all of the above simply led me to analyse the ammounts of salts I was palcing in my mixture and i noticed that the APF measurements were quite a bit lower than the measuremetns in your article. Really the question is "due to the fact i am running quite a high power set-up, should I be taking the recommened APF measurements with a pinch of salt? (ahem)". If so, what would be the recommended measurements for a chelated salt mixture of the same volume?

Thanks
CD


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## ceg4048 (19 Jun 2013)

Hi,
   Thanks for clarifying. The symptoms you described are more to do with CO2. It might be better to leave them and see what happens in another few weeks. When you add more plants that means each plant will get less CO2. There is also more blocking of flow. When you change the scape, you really change everything about the distribution.

Of course the same can be said of nutrients, but the plants have an easier time dealing with a lesser nutrient load than for a reduced CO2 load. A 10% difference due to filter volume is negligible in the EI scheme.

Cheers,


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## dw1305 (19 Jun 2013)

Hi all,


Crawdaddy said:


> It is supposed to be 11w


 I'm sure it isn't CO2 or nutrients. Your tap water is pretty nutrient rich to start with, and atmospheric levels of dissolved CO2 are sufficient for most plants.

I think the simple answer is you don't have enough light for any plants to grow. Assuming we are talking about a compact T5 fluorescent lamp (2/4 pin PL2?). Realistically that 11W is really 11W spread over 70 litres.

For that size of tank I would have at least 2 x 14W T5, and ideally a bit more light.

cheers Darrel


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## Crawdaddy (19 Jun 2013)

Ceg, thanks for the feedback. Ill double check the distribution, although I actually rescaped with CO2 distribution in mind and have made a few alterations like moving tank furniture in order to ease flow.

Darrel, thanks for the input. As i said above the problems I have had in the past tend to point to high light issues and i've had to reduce light to overcome them. But again, I'm not really sure of the strength of my bulb to be honest. Info can be found here - daylight™ | United Kingdom | 11W PL energy saving tube - How does that rate strength wise?

Thanks
CD


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## Iain Sutherland (19 Jun 2013)

I have an 11w PL bulb over a 35ltr low tech CRS tank and its not enough light to grow a lot of plants and algae doesnt have a chance.  Its not often id suggest more light but in this case id suggest you try something with a bit more guts and monitor the changes.  I highly doubt nutrients will have anything to do with it, EI will cover you for very high light at standard dosing.


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## Crawdaddy (19 Jun 2013)

Ah.... That's pretty embarrassing actually. I've been trying so hard not to make a classic schoolboy error that I've gone and made an even schoolboyier one. 

Any recommendations for a suitable light set-up for an open top tank (hopefully for around the £100 mark)?


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## Crawdaddy (19 Jun 2013)

You know, I hate to disagree with a guy who’s tank looks like that asian dreams one, but I’m still not convinced it is a light issue.

I've attached a photo of the latest batch of leaves that i have removed:




Are these symptomatic of lack of light? Google seems to points to nitrogen/phosphate/co2 deficiency.


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## Iain Sutherland (20 Jun 2013)

Dont worry about questioning my opinion, im a long way from knowing half as much as some of the guys on here and am always happy to be corrected when wrong 

Do you know the type of crypt and how long have they been in the tank?  Looks to me like its emersed growth from the supplier. I  know from my own low tech tanks emersed growth can take weeks to succumb.  Have you been having the same issue with leaves you know have grown while in your tank?


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## Crawdaddy (20 Jun 2013)

Actually now you mention it, (from left to right) the second, third and fifth leaves are on new plants (2 weeks old today). The rest are from old plants (a few months old) but i don't think those leaves sprouted in my tank.... thinking about it there's not been that much new growth from this species (cryptocoryne amicorum).... Oh.... .... boy don't I feel sheepish.

Right more light it is (this must be a first on this forum!)

I quite like the aesthetic of a desk lamp style light. Would a bulb like this have enough juice? - Green Lamp 45w Ultra bright daylight light bulb (BC, 6400K, est, GRNL/16): Amazon.co.uk: Lighting


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## Mike Edwardes (20 Jun 2013)

I've found *BLT Direct* to be good for relatively low tech lighting supplies.


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## Iain Sutherland (20 Jun 2013)

Only one way to find out if that light will work.  It is a rarity to advise more light and I'm reluctant to do so however if your dosing and and adding co2 even if done badly you should see growth of some sort.

If your looking for a cheap solution it would be worth posting in the wanted section once you have 25 posts or look at allpondsolutions for an affordable t5 fixture. 

No need to feel sheepish, everyday is a school day around here.


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## dw1305 (20 Jun 2013)

Hi all,


Crawdaddy said:


> As i said above the problems I have had in the past tend to point to high light issues and i've had to reduce light to overcome them. But again, I'm not really sure of the strength of my bulb to be honest. Info can be found here - daylight™ | United Kingdom | 11W PL energy saving tube - How does that rate strength wise?


I'm convinced it is a light issue, a PL2 is basically a T5 tube folded in half, as you fold the tubes they become less efficient, so it is probably equivalent to a 10W of straight T5. The ballast is in the bottom of the fitting, and even if it was as efficient as the 8W -13W electronic ballasts (in "link lights" etc.) it is still pretty dim.


Crawdaddy said:


> I quite like the aesthetic of a desk lamp style light. Would a bulb like this have enough juice? - Green Lamp 45w Ultra bright daylight light bulb (BC, 6400K, est, GRNL/16): Amazon.co.uk: Lighting


Probably be all right, but I've gone away from using these types of CFL bulb as they tend not to last as long as they should. I think the reason for this is the control gear in the bottom of the fitting tends to be pretty cheap and cheerful.

An externally ballasted T5 luminaire could be better value in the long run, the tubes are very cheap from BLT, Lampspecs, TLC etc as suggested. I've not owned an APS fitting, but the 3 x 14W BOYU ones are good for cheap fittings.

cheers Darrel


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## Crawdaddy (21 Jun 2013)

Iain Sutherland said:


> everyday is a school day around here


 - fella, you aint kiddin.

Mike, Ian, Darrel - Outstanding response. Thank you.

Now if you would excuse me gentlemen, I'm off to the light shop.


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## Andy Thurston (21 Jun 2013)

Aps fitting looks almost identical as boyu exept for uk plug and rubber covers over switches and aps one costs much more too. They even have the same product code on box and i suspect their made in the same factory in china and quality will be similar


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