# Possible relapse (formely called "Urgent help please")



## confusedman (4 Mar 2021)

All of my fish are very quiet. Three of them sitting at the bottom of the tank. Hiding. Not moving.
The shrimp are nowhere to be seen 
Yesterday eve changed the heater but temperature seems to be ok. This morning they ate and moved normally
Yesterday added some floating plants in the main tank and in the quarantine tank. Quarantine fish seems to be normal.
Water parameters are ok except for Nitrates that might be ten: not sure about the colour. Can that be the reason? should I do an immediate water change? I am worried that if thats not the reason a water change might upset them even more.

Please advise


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## alto (4 Mar 2021)

How long since last water change?

I’d be inclined to do a 50% water change and see if fish improve - if yes, I’d likely do another 50% water change soon after 
Use extra Prime as well


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## Kevin Eades (4 Mar 2021)

In my experience its either issues with water quality or oxygen levels. Both can be fixed with a water change. I'd get one started ASAP. If the Nitrates come down and you still have issues make sure you have enough surface movement for gas exchange


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## AverageWhiteBloke (4 Mar 2021)

Any more background information about the tank would help further. How  long tanks been set up, the fish, filtration etc. Nothing you have mentioned so far would cause issues other than if the water change had been iffy by some work on the pipeline but if you have used something like Prime to treat the water that should be fine.


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## confusedman (4 Mar 2021)

alto said:


> How long since last water change?
> 
> I’d be inclined to do a 50% water change and see if fish improve - if yes, I’d likely do another 50% water change soon after
> Use extra Prime as well


Last Sunday


Kevin Eades said:


> In my experience its either issues with water quality or oxygen levels. Both can be fixed with a water change. I'd get one started ASAP. If the Nitrates come down and you still have issues make sure you have enough surface movement for gas exchange


For some reason de Filter flow was very low. Its my first tank and I don't know how it works. i opened (found a dead shrimp, washed the sponge in the tank water bucket -but there wasn't much muck on it- put it back and the flow went back to normal. I struggle to believe that the body of the shrimp could have blocked it. I don't know if that might have been the reason. 
Maybe I put too many floating plants and that affected the oxygen levels?
I have now removed most of them.


AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Any more background information about the tank would help further. How  long tanks been set up, the fish, filtration etc. Nothing you have mentioned so far would cause issues other than if the water change had been iffy by some work on the pipeline but if you have used something like Prime to treat the water that should be fine.


First tank. Just a small Aquael Leddy 60. Filter Asap 300. Two platy two molly two honey gourami. 6 amanos and 3 bloody shrimps The last platy is big and was added the day before yesterday. I wonder if he ate the shrimp because I only see one amaño and the corpse I found in the filter.


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## Wookii (4 Mar 2021)

Are you sure the temperature is okay? I once forgot to turn my heater back on for 24 hours and the temperature dropped below 20 degrees, and my Embers clung to the bottom and wouldn’t eat. As soon as I realised and the temperature got back up, they were fine.

I only mention this as you say you changed your heater, and the next day saw the new behaviour.

I doubt it will be the floating plants affecting the oxygen levels, as the fish would be at the top of the tank trying to sup from the surface layer if that were the issue.


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## John q (4 Mar 2021)

Hi @confusedman,
Are the gourami hanging near the surface (gulping)?
You say the temperature seems ok, do you know what the temperature is?

I wouldn't worry about your nitrates if they are reading 10, chances are your London tap water will be far higher than that.
I'd be inclined to go with low oxygen levels, possibly brought on by perfect storm of clogged filter and maybe sudden temp rise.

If the water change seems to help then maybe try lifting the filter up a bit or altering the outflow angle to get more surface agitation, also adding in a bubbler (air stone) if you don't already have one could help.


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## confusedman (4 Mar 2021)

John q said:


> Hi @confusedman,
> Are the gourami hanging near the surface (gulping)?
> You say the temperature seems ok, do you know what the temperature is?
> 
> ...


Gouramis were close to the surface earlier but they just looked a bit slow, but not like they were struggling to breath. Now they are quietly around. They all seem to be moving a bit more now apart from the Molly.
temperature is 25.6. I saw three shrimps alive


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## John q (4 Mar 2021)

So have you changed any of the water yet, and if so did you see any improvement in fish behaviour.


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## PM_ME_YOUR_NEONS (4 Mar 2021)

speaking for myself but i'd do a large wc ASAP, with water treatment additive ofcourse, perhaps put in previous heater or maybe even none depending on where the tank sits


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## John q (4 Mar 2021)

Also worth noting that now you no longer have the Rams dropping the water temp a little wouldn't do any harm. If you do lower it do it slowly, maybe drop a degree over the next 12 hrs.


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## alto (4 Mar 2021)

confusedman said:


> The last platy is big and was added the day before yesterday.


Was this fish quarantined before adding to the main tank?

While low water flow, and plants may’ve raised issues, disease is also possible when adding new fish - but water change is still best treatment without further information/symptoms (and as shrimp are also affected, water quality seems more likely)


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## sparkyweasel (4 Mar 2021)

Water changes help with most problems, even if you don't know what's wrong.
Why did you change the heater? If the old one works OK, I would try swapping back, it's just possible that the new heater caused the problem and easy to eliminate that possibility if the old heater is still good.


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## jaypeecee (4 Mar 2021)

confusedman said:


> Water parameters are ok except for Nitrates that might be ten: not sure about the colour.


Hi @confusedman 

What are you using to test the water parameters? Is it test strips or bottled liquid reagents? And, who is the manufacturer - API, Tetra, etc? This is very important.

JPC


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## John q (4 Mar 2021)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @confusedman
> 
> What are you using to test the water parameters? Is it test strips or bottled liquid reagents? And, who is the manufacturer - API, Tetra, etc? This is very important.
> 
> JPC



In case you don't get a reply tonight jpc there was some reference to the kit here. Post no 1





						Test results
					

Hello everyone  Short story of my tank:  Up and running on the 25th of January 16 fish in on 29th of January (no idea what cycling the tank was by then) 30th of January we added some filter media and some more plants 31st of January 3 deaths  7 fish sent back to shop, we kept 6  Since then...



					www.ukaps.org
				




I put 2 and 2 together and came up with this.





						Aquarium Test Kit - Aquarium Lab Multi-Test from NT Labs
					

The main factor in successful fish keeping and health lies in the maintenance of good water quality. Ammonia, nitrite and pH levels in the aquarium should be checked regularly. The Aquarium Lab Multi-Test Kit comprises up to 200 tests combined of the 6 key parameters to test in your aquarium...




					www.ntlabs.co.uk
				




I could however be barking up the wrong tree.


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## jaypeecee (4 Mar 2021)

Hi @confusedman and @John q

If the NT Labs test kit is being used, the OP needs to be aware of the following (from the NT Labs website):

"This test kit reports concentration in terms of nitrogen (NH3-N), (NO2-N) or (NO3-N) to be compatible with reported safe concentrations as they apply to fish and plants. If you are interested in knowing the ionic concentration of the measured parameter, multiply your result by 1.21 (NH3-N), 3.29 (NO2-N), or 4.43 (NO3-N)".

This is unusual practice for a European, nay British, aquatics company. I once spoke with one of their lab guys about this.

JPC


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## confusedman (5 Mar 2021)

John q said:


> So have you changed any of the water yet, and if so did you see any improvement in fish behaviour.


Yes I changed 50% of the water around 6. They seem to be moving a little more but Mollys are still pretty still


alto said:


> Was this fish quarantined before adding to the main tank?
> 
> While low water flow, and plants may’ve raised issues, disease is also possible when adding new fish - but water change is still best treatment without further information/symptoms (and as shrimp are also affected, water quality seems more likely)


It wasn't quarantined. I need to quarantine the swordtail because it had a fin problem, so I had to swap them around and put the new Platy in the main tank


sparkyweasel said:


> Water changes help with most problems, even if you don't know what's wrong.
> Why did you change the heater? If the old one works OK, I would try swapping back, it's just possible that the new heater caused the problem and easy to eliminate that possibility if the old heater is still good.


I needed a heater for the quarantine tank. So i bought a new one that i put in the bigger tank and I used the old one (smaller)for the quarantine tank


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## alto (5 Mar 2021)

If water temperature, filter flow, water change haven’t really improved the situation and new fish added, I’d consider treating with an external parasite remedy (as this is one of the most common issues in fish)

If shop is close by (call and confirm that fish have not all sold etc), you might go back in and observe other fish in that Platy tank


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## jaypeecee (5 Mar 2021)

Hi @confusedman 

Did you see posts #14, #15 and #16?

JPC


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## confusedman (5 Mar 2021)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @confusedman
> 
> Did you see posts #14, #15 and #16?
> 
> JPC


Yes thank you. But not sure I full understand the meaning. Specially in number 16


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## confusedman (5 Mar 2021)

On of the Gouramis is at the top. Not gasping but super super still. I don't know what else to do
The rest of them seem to be ok


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## jaypeecee (5 Mar 2021)

confusedman said:


> Yes thank you. But not sure I full understand the meaning. Specially in number 16


Hi @confusedman 

Let's say your nitrate (NO3-) reading was 10 ppm (from the test kit). Then you would need to multiply this figure by the factor shown (i.e. 4.43) in order to get the figure that would normally be recognized and used throughout the UK. For some obscure reason, NTL are adopting the USA system - not the European/UK system. So, your UK-adjusted figure for nitrate would be 10 x 4.43 = 44.3 ppm. The multiplication factors are different for each of ammonia (NH3-N) and nitrite (NO2-N).

Hope that helps.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (5 Mar 2021)

John q said:


> I wouldn't worry about your nitrates if they are reading 10...


Hi @John q 

Please see my comments further down this thread.

JPC


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## confusedman (5 Mar 2021)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @confusedman
> 
> Let's say your nitrate (NO3-) reading was 10 ppm (from the test kit). Then you would need to multiply this figure by the factor shown (i.e. 4.43) in order to get the figure that would normally be recognized and used throughout the UK. For some obscure reason, NTL are adopting the USA system - not the European/UK system. So, your UK-adjusted figure for nitrate would be 10 x 4.43 = 44.3 ppm. The multiplication factors are different for each of ammonia (NH3-N) and nitrite (NO2-N).
> 
> ...


Thank you for your help.

Does that mean that my Nitrates are super high? What shall I do? i changed around 50`% of the water last evening and this morning I did a 20% one.
The fish seem to be ok apart from one of the Gouramis.
Seriously, this is soooo stressful (and I swear to god Im trying to do it right, not worrying about expenses or time or effort, but obviously is not working)


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## aquascape1987 (5 Mar 2021)

I know this isn’t in the vein of where this discussion is leading at the minute, but have you considered CO2?

I have observed the same symptoms of fish being lethargic and shrimps disappearing into hiding, when my CO2 has been set too high as it causes stress. Just a thought and worth a check.


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## jaypeecee (5 Mar 2021)

Hi Folks,

Even if the adjusted figure for nitrate was, say, 50ppm, I don't think this is the problem here. I would obviously be more interested in knowing the ammonia and nitrite readings/adjusted figures.

JPC


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## John q (5 Mar 2021)

Noted jpc, I was suspicious of the nitrate reading in the original "Test kit thread" considering London tends to have high nitrate levels. 

@confusedman  the gourami are labyrinth fish and can effectively get air out of the atmosphere (at the surface) if oxygen levels are low they'll tend to hang around gulping air at the top. 
Not sure what else to suggest if you're regularly changing water then it would probably rule out low oxygen levels.


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## jaypeecee (5 Mar 2021)

confusedman said:


> Seriously, this is soooo stressful...


Hi @confusedman

You and your tank inhabitants are not on your own. We will do our best to answer your questions. Try to stay calm.

 Just need to take a short break - back later.

JPC


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## John q (5 Mar 2021)

@confusedman  can you post any pictures of the fish close up, it might help rule in/out any potential diseases or give other clues.


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## confusedman (5 Mar 2021)

aquascape1987 said:


> I know this isn’t in the vein of where this discussion is leading at the minute, but have you considered CO2?
> 
> I have observed the same symptoms of fish being lethargic and shrimps disappearing into hiding, when my CO2 has been set too high as it causes stress. Just a thought and worth a check.


I dont do anything in my tank related to C02


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## shangman (5 Mar 2021)

Hi Confusedman,

I think you need to do 50% waterchanges every day/every other day again, or maybe every 3 days. I saw you did one today, that's good. I know it can be hard to judge but use your hand to try to judge the water tempurature - fish get stressed if the water is different by a more than 3 degrees or so I've noticed, and will get more stressed if you're changing a big amount of water with a different temp. This can make them stressed for quite a few hours, which could be why they're acting strangely.

I saw you just cleaned your filter yesterday, I bet that was stopping the filter more than you would think, the sponges can get really clogged, and now its clean you will get much better flow. Ideally you should clean the filter like you did yesterday every month, to keep the water flowing well which is really important so the fish and bacteria in your tank get enough oxygen. It would also be good to make sure your filter is quite high up so the flow coming out of it disturbs the water surface, giving you extra oxygen.

Was it a dead amano in the filter? Once I had a dead amano in my 60L which I didn't realise in time to take it out and it caused a massive bacterial bloom from the extra ammonia/chemicals the body gave off. Your shrimp could've given off these chemicals, and your filter as it was clogged hasn't been able to process the extra chemicals in the water. Now you've cleaned the filter and changed the water that will have helped a lot, but the fish may still feel a bit bad from whatever was going wrong before. 

Don't worry about the plants doing anything bad, plants don't do bad stuff to fish when the plants are alive. Keep them in they will only help absorb stuff. 

Keep calm it will be ok! I know it's so hard when the fish seem stressed, it's really easy to get stressed too, but remember you are doing all you can, and we will do what we cna to advise. It seems like a good idea to look into potential illnesses - this is why we quarantine fish, to protect your current fish stock from getting any diseases from the new fish, it gives you a chance to see how the new fish are doing and to more easily treat the new fish so they can go and live in your main tnak without any worries. TBH though most people don't quarantine until something bad happens to them and they realise how important it is, and if they have the space.


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## confusedman (5 Mar 2021)

Until sunday we did 50% water changes every other day.
This week we thought we could go to the weekly 50% changes.
The filter was cleaned on sunday (always in "dirty" water)
I normally get the temperature as similar to the tank one before I put the water in. I add the Seachem to the new water in the indicated doses.


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## confusedman (5 Mar 2021)

John q said:


> @confusedman  can you post any pictures of the fish close up, it might help rule in/out any potential diseases or give other clues.


Picture 1 is the poorly Gourami. That pic could be a video because he is just there. Not moving
The rest of the fish seem to be acting normal now. One platy is missing form the pics.
In total there are
2 Gouramis
2 Platys (one missing form the pic)
2 Mollys (one black one Dalmatian)


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## confusedman (5 Mar 2021)

I could put the Gourami in the quarantine tank with the swordtail but I am worried that the change of temperature and conditions might be more negative than beneficial


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## John q (5 Mar 2021)

I can't see the pictures very well (could be my phone) but I can make out clamped fins and possibly stringy white poo? Do any of the fishes bellys look sunken and is any of the poo clear/stringy. 

Tough call on the gourami, I'd be tempted to leave it were it is for now to avoid further stress.


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## shangman (5 Mar 2021)

Yeah @confusedman sent me a video, and I noticed that orange molly does have long white poo in it that's staying there while it swims around, I don't keep Mollies so don't know if that's unusual, but to me that suggests a parasite? The male gourami at the top is definitely in distress, it isn't moving and has clamped fins as you see in the photo.


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## jaypeecee (5 Mar 2021)

jaypeecee said:


> I would obviously be more interested in knowing the ammonia and nitrite readings/adjusted figures.


Hi @confusedman

I don't think you've mentioned what your current ammonia and nitrite readings are. Correct me if I'm wrong.

JPC


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## John q (5 Mar 2021)

If it was my tank and I'd ruled out oxygen shortage, high ammonia/nitrite levels, cleaned the filter and so on then I'd possibly move on to treat disease. Just be sure the above ones are ruled out.


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## confusedman (5 Mar 2021)

PH 8
Ammonia
Nitrite 0


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## confusedman (5 Mar 2021)

The string of poo has beenn there (not in the Gouramis though but in Platy and Molly) since the beginning and I assumed that was "normal"

I dont mind running to the shop, but what should I get?


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## John q (5 Mar 2021)

The stringy poo could just be constipation. Its a difficult call, if I were to treat for suspected parasites I'd use esha ndx.
Just be sure oxygen levels are good if you go down that route as the treatment itself could lower oxygen levels further, and multiple water changes will be void for 24hrs.

Have you got good surface movement in the tank?


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## confusedman (5 Mar 2021)

There is the filter in one side + the bubble stone in the other side
If they had no Esha NDX, what else could I ask for? ( I mean, more than a brand a type of treatment).


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## John q (5 Mar 2021)

Levamisoli hydrochloridum (Levamisole hydrochloride) is the active ingredient.


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## confusedman (5 Mar 2021)

Uff... and if its not parasites and I lower the oxygen level Ill probably kill the Gourami... tough call...

Ok... thanks

wish me luck


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## John q (5 Mar 2021)

confusedman said:


> Uff... and if its not parasites and I lower the oxygen level Ill probably kill the Gourami... tough call...
> 
> Ok... thanks
> 
> wish me luck


Ultimately its your call but if you've decent surface agitation from your filter and you've an air stone in the tank then oxygen levels should be good.


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## confusedman (5 Mar 2021)

Now I have a shaking Molly


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## AverageWhiteBloke (5 Mar 2021)

confusedman said:


> Gouramis were close to the surface earlier but they just looked a bit slow, but not like they were struggling to breath. Now they are quietly around. They all seem to be moving a bit more now apart from the Molly.


Gouramis are labyrinth fish, the come to the surface for air.


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## confusedman (5 Mar 2021)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Gouramis are labyrinth fish, the come to the surface for air.


Its not that. He was completely still ñ. He wasnt even gasping. Now he is sitting at the bottom i think he is dying


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## John q (5 Mar 2021)

So to re cap..

You've ruled out high ammonia levels (with a test and visualy there's no sign of red gills)
The filter is clean and providing good flow and you've added an air stone.
In the last 24hrs you've done lots of water changes.
You're confident the temperature is around 25c and have checked with an additional thermometer.
There's no chance any cleaning products or aerosols could have contaminated the tank.

The molly shaking is a clear sign that things are heading down hill and I'd  be inclined to treat for parasites if all the above questions have been answered.

There's no guarantee they have parasites, but think you're at the point that doing nothing is no longer an option.


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## confusedman (5 Mar 2021)

John q said:


> So to re cap..
> 
> You've ruled out high ammonia levels (with a test and visualy there's no sign of red gills)
> The filter is clean and providing good flow and you've added an air stone.
> ...


The recap is correct. Ive treated the first dose of Esha NDX. The girl at the shop was more inclined to treat them for internal bacteria but I followed your advice. No deaths so far. Lets see if they make it until tomorrow 
Whats stressful day
Thanks for everyone's help


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## aquascape1987 (5 Mar 2021)

🤞 for you mate


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## alto (6 Mar 2021)

confusedman said:


> The girl at the shop was more inclined to treat them for internal bacteria


Why why why
There are no OTC fish meds available (in many countries as well as the UK) that are actually effective against *internal* bacterial infections observed in ornamental fish - most of the meds so advertised only treat minor external infections, that are generally only secondary to the primary disease pathogen ... so not useless, but far from effective

I’d have chosen eSha exit as it’s more effective against external parasites (which I suspect is the main issue - the trailing Pooh seen in your photo looks more like typical “I eat anything and trail cutely” often observed in various platy/platy hybrids etc) than a levamisole bath - I suggest collecting some from the shop

If you don’t see significant improvement within 24-48 hours of initiating an aquarium treatment, and there are other medication options, then perform a 90% water change (same as 3 x 50% water changes which can be less stressful to (especially sick) fish), add some carbon overnight to remove the remaining medication, then begin anew

(All that clamping and stillness and surface hovering are typical signs of external parasites/parasites that have impacted gill function, eg, ich Note that the white spots so representative of ich, are actually only observed once the infection is well established)


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## John q (6 Mar 2021)

confusedman said:


> I followed your advice.



Well if I'm being honest it was more a shot in the dark.

Diagnosing and treating disease/infection in fish at the best of times is difficult, trying to diagnose remotely with a couple of grainy pictures is shall we say "asking a lot".
I can only comment, or feel happy suggesting treatments I've used and had good results from.

I'd give the ndx a full 24hrs from dosing, then do a 50% water change and see if anything improves.
If no improvement, then I'd be inclined to go with alto's advice.

Fingers crossed mate.


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## confusedman (6 Mar 2021)

John q said:


> Well if I'm being honest it was more a shot in the dark.
> 
> Diagnosing and treating disease/infection in fish at the best of times is difficult, trying to diagnose remotely with a couple of grainy pictures is shall we say "asking a lot".
> I can only comment, or fell happy suggesting treatments I've used and had good results from.
> ...


I am super grateful for your advice: right or wrong. You have been there and you can not imagine how much reassurance you gave me. They are my responsibility and Im giving them the treatment. If it goes wrong my fault.
They are still alive. Gouramis sort of the same behaviour but the rest of them acting normally (they have eaten normally too)


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## confusedman (8 Mar 2021)

Treatment number one seems not to have worked so now I'm changing to treatment  number 2.
This morning  I did a 50% water change and I put in a carbon filter.
I'll keep it running for 12 hours before starting treatment number 2 tonight.
Could I do another 50% water change tonight or would that be more disruptive than beneficial?
Reminder:
4 fish seem to be ok
2 gouramis have been very still for the last three days. Surprised that they're still alive
1 molly did go through different phases now sitting on top of a piece of wood.
Advice please


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## Angelfishguy99 (8 Mar 2021)

Could there of been anything on the new plants that you added to your aquarium? 3 weeks ago I added a new plant and 300+ shrimp were dead within 24 hours.


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## confusedman (8 Mar 2021)

Angelfishguy99 said:


> Could there of been anything on the new plants that you added to your aquarium? 3 weeks ago I added a new plant and 300+ shrimp were dead within 24 hours.


Did u find out why?


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## jaypeecee (8 Mar 2021)

confusedman said:


> Yesterday added some floating plants in the main tank and in the quarantine tank. Quarantine fish seems to be normal.


Hi @confusedman

I am wondering if you introduced planaria into your tank on your plants. Please take a look at this:









						It was going so well.... Cherry Shrimp die off
					

Very rarely is it anything in the tap water unless its from a bore hole or something. That product provides trace elements (micro nutrients) to the plants. As long as its not overdosed itll be fine. It contains nutrients such as iron, manganese, zinc, boron, copper (very small amounts so dont...



					www.ukaps.org
				




JPC


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## Angelfishguy99 (8 Mar 2021)

confusedman said:


> Did u find out why?


Yep, pesticides were used on the plants from the suppliers


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## jaypeecee (8 Mar 2021)

Angelfishguy99 said:


> Yep, pesticides were used on the plants from the suppliers


Hi @Angelfishguy99 

That's diabolical. No doubt the plants in the store were in the plant tank - well removed from any livestock.

JPC


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## Karmicnull (8 Mar 2021)

Angelfishguy99 said:


> Yep, pesticides were used on the plants from the suppliers


This happened to a friend of mine a few years back.  The shop refused to give him any compensation and he took them to court.  And won.


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## Angelfishguy99 (8 Mar 2021)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Angelfishguy99
> 
> That's diabolical. No doubt the plants in the store were in the plant tank - well removed from any livestock.
> 
> JPC


I bought them from ZooAqua | Make your Aquarium irresistible

No where on their site did they mention anything about their plants being treated with pesticides/fungicides. So i was furious, in the past when buying plants online a lot of sellers mention on their site about warnings with shrimp etc. I took screenshots of their entire website and not one mention of anything until the day i complained then they added it in their terms and conditions which can be seen here (last bullet point)




 

Day i complained




They basically said it was my fault for buying potted plants and that i should know because every aquariust knows that potted plants are treated with pesticides


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## Angelfishguy99 (8 Mar 2021)

I was also told that tropica say the same thing about their potted plants and only invitro are safe.





I have never had any problem with Tropica potted plants over the years with shrimp at all.

Also sorry OP for hijacking your thead


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## jaypeecee (9 Mar 2021)

Angelfishguy99 said:


> I bought them from ZooAqua | Make your Aquarium irresistible


Hi @Angelfishguy99 

OK, that name is now on my blacklist.

JPC


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## GHNelson (9 Mar 2021)

Angelfishguy99 said:


> They basically said it was my fault for buying potted plants and that i should know because every aquariust knows that potted plants are treated with pesticides


Yea, and what if you are new to the hobby! Fools


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## confusedman (9 Mar 2021)

Gouramis are still alive but super lethargic. Not eating.
Poor Molly looking bad


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## Kevin Eades (9 Mar 2021)

Looks like an ick infection?


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## John q (9 Mar 2021)

confusedman said:


> Treatment number one seems not to have worked so now I'm changing to treatment number 2.


Did you start a second treatment confusedman?

It certainly looks like white spot (ich) but to be honest I've never seen the spots so big.
Are the other fish infected in the same way, or maybe they have smaller salt like dots on them.


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## sparkyweasel (9 Mar 2021)

John q said:


> It certainly looks like white spot (ich) but to be honest I've never seen the spots so big.


That's what I thought, until I realised how big the fish is in the pic. Then I thought they could be normal sized white spot after all.
Mollies are susceptible to white spot, often get it before their tankmates. 
If not white spot it must be something similar, I would expect eSha Exit to work.


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## MirandaB (9 Mar 2021)

Just wondering if that might be Epistylis rather than Ich


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## confusedman (10 Mar 2021)

The Molly is like 4 cms long but I tried to get a close up for you to be able to see it properly.
After treatment one we did a 50% change of water and run a filter with carbon for 12 hours then we started the eSHa Exit. Last night we gave them the second dose.
Molly looks active.
Gourami one looks more active
Gourami 2 is still very lethargic.
Gouramis are not eating and I dont know if theres a way to encourage them to do it


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## confusedman (10 Mar 2021)

MirandaB said:


> Just wondering if that might be Epistylis rather than Ich


Ive been looking at pics. It really look like that. And it has it on the yes too 
But I cant tell the two diseases apart


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## aquascape1987 (10 Mar 2021)

Hi @confusedman... I take it that the situation isn’t improving?

Im not an expert on fish diseases, so I can’t tell the two apart to be honest.. I do know that in the deep dark past though, I once had ich in my tank, and I also bought an appropriate treatment, which worked. I was advised to turn up the temp of the tank whilst I was treating, which apparently speeds up the life cycle of the of the parasite, therefore accelerating the cycle to when it becomes waterborne, which is when the medicine kills it... I haven’t seen that mentioned in the discussions on here so far, so thought it worth a mention. This is from the depths of my memory though, of a problem from years ago, but I just remember this detail from the advice I got at the time when buying the treatment.


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## jaypeecee (10 Mar 2021)

MirandaB said:


> Just wondering if that might be Epistylis rather than Ich


Here is a useful (?) link:






						10.2.4. Epistylis in tropical fish
					

Epistylis is a very common and very unrecognized fish disease. It is commonly confused with ich.




					aquariumscience.org
				




JPC


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## aquascape1987 (10 Mar 2021)

Problem is, if it’s Epistylis, there’s no treatment legally available in the UK as antibiotics are required to treat comprehensively.... You can increase flow and tank cleanliness etc etc, but then you are at the mercy of the fishes already compromised immune system fighting it off 😩


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## jaypeecee (10 Mar 2021)

aquascape1987 said:


> Problem is, if it’s Epistylis, there’s no treatment legally available in the UK as antibiotics are required to treat comprehensively....


Hi @aquascape1987 & Everyone,

I suspect this may be an expensive route to pursue but I mention it anyway:









						Specialists Fish Treatments & Medicines | Fish Treatment Ltd
					

The specialist fish treatments company set up by veterinarian Dr Fiona Macdonald to develop and supply fish medicines. Fluke-Solve™ and Lice-Solve™.




					www.fish-treatment.co.uk
				




JPC


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## confusedman (10 Mar 2021)

Gourami 1seems to have improved. He doesnt eat
Gourami 2 looks still and weak as before. She doesn't eat neither.
Black molly looks such and acts weird

Today is day 3 of the  standard course of eSHa Exit

I dont know what to do next


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## confusedman (13 Mar 2021)

All the fish seem to be better. Gouramis now eating.
Today is the last day of the extended treatment of eSHa Exit combined with eSHa 2000.
Tomorrow 50% change of water and hopefully the situation will be stable after that.
Considering using eSHa Optima.
Thank you everyone for your help


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## Dogtemple (14 Mar 2021)

Harrison Ford has just been announced to play the lead in new film “Urgent help, please”


I’m glad your tank has recovered. This has been a tense read I have to say.


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## sparkyweasel (14 Mar 2021)

Dogtemple said:


> Harrison Ford has just been announced to play the lead in new film “Urgent help, please”
> 
> 
> I’m glad your tank has recovered. This has been a tense read I have to say.


I hope Brian Blessed gets a cameo role;
"Fish still alive!".


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## Dogtemple (15 Mar 2021)




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## confusedman (18 Mar 2021)

Good morning everyone.

After a few days of peace, black Molly seems to start behaving in a weird way and the white spots (see pic in previous post) are coming back around the eyes.
When this started we gave the whole tank
3 days of eSHa Exit 
and then
3 days of eSHa Exit + esha 2000
This ended last saturday the.13th
What could we do now? I dont know how long or how many times we can use the treatment as we already did the recommended 3 days + 3 extra ones
Help please


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## John q (18 Mar 2021)

Hi confusedman,

Thankfully I've only ever had to treat white spot with single (as per instructions) doses of medication so I'm a bit unsure what to suggest for the best.
I think if you've already used exit for 6 days it should have killed off the ich, assuming it was actually ich to begin with. Re using if its not 100% needed is only going to stress out the fish again.
You never said if the other fish developed spots, or you did and I missed it.

Is it possible to put the molly in the quarantine tank and try to treat it separately? If so maybe that would be best.

If you do end up with a definite outbreak of white spot then you'd either have to dose again or maybe try another type of treatment.


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## MirandaB (18 Mar 2021)

Just been speaking to a friend of mine who is pretty good on diseases and treatments.
Is your water hard or soft @confusedman? 
If you have any Methylene Blue it would be a good idea to give that Molly a bath in it in a separate container to see if those spots stain blue,if they do it's fungal and most likely Saprolegnia.
He's had success treating Epistylis by hitting it with NT Labs anti parasite first then a combined course of exit and 2000 but the copper content in the NT Labs would mean any inverts would need to come out first.


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## confusedman (18 Mar 2021)

Thank you. Its London water which is apparently hard.
The esha exit treatment seemed to work last week. She stopped acting lethargic and went to her normal herself for four days, no trace of spots. Last night she wasnr acting normal neither she was this morning. This early evening she had worsened a lot. The other ones seem to be ok but this is exactly how it happened ten days ago and then the Gouramis went into crisis too. Unfortunately I dont have any Methylene, just eSHa Gdx, eSHa Exit and eSHa 2000


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## confusedman (18 Mar 2021)

John q said:


> Hi confusedman,
> 
> Thankfully I've only
> You never said if the other fish developed spots, or you did and I missed it.
> ...


The two Gouramis were super poorly. Staying still at the surface *not gasp ik ng or anything) just there, no movement. They wouldnt eat. 
Then with the treatment everyone went back to normal (just for four days)


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