# Oto's and SAE's



## Antipofish (9 Jan 2012)

Hi
My tank is 80cm x 45cm x 55cm (175L bare).  It will be planted reasonably and I was thinking of putting in some algae eaters as some of the first fish.

I am thinking of Otocinclus cats and Siamese Algae Eaters (True Flying Fox).  What numbers of each would I require and do they both do different jobs or target the same algae (if present)?

Also, the Oto's I saw in one LFS today could not have even measured 1cm in length.  I would assume at this size they are not big enough to be considered mature enough to do enough of a job to make them worthwhile.  Am I right ?  Is there a minimum size before they are capable of doing anything noticeable ?

Thanks in advance.


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## sussex_cichlids (9 Jan 2012)

I would not add Ottos as first fish its advised that you introduced ottos to a well established tank with some algae in 
other wise you may find they starve to deaf even if you do feed algae wafers it better to introduce them to a tank that at least 6 months old giving them plenty of stuff to eat off of stones and bog wood 

If you do you may find they starve and it will just be a waste of time and money any algae eating fish needs a well established tank


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## Alastair (9 Jan 2012)

Sae will grow large quickly too so I'd just get one possibly too. 
Sussex child is right with the ottos, and with your tabk being new with no matured filter running you would lose a lot. 
It would be good if you have a friend local who could give you some of his/her seeded media which will speed things along 


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## Antipofish (9 Jan 2012)

Great thanks guys, I will scrap that idea for now, hold off on the ottos and limit the SAE's.  Darn it they look great too.  How big do they get then Alastair ?


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## sussex_cichlids (9 Jan 2012)

Otocinclus tapirape is the smallest of the species (2.4 cm), while Otocinclus flexilis is the biggest (5.5 cm)


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## Antipofish (9 Jan 2012)

sussex_cichlids said:
			
		

> Otocinclus tapirape is the smallest of the species (2.4 cm), while Otocinclus flexilis is the biggest (5.5 cm)



Cheers. Do they both do the same job mate ?  Or is one better than the other ?


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## Alastair (9 Jan 2012)

They both eat algae but different types. Ottos love diatoms more than anything and will polish that stuff off in no time. Good round bellies are a sign it's got enough food. 
Sae grow a good 4 inches eventually. They munch on different types of algae including bba but tend to get more if a liking for flaked food as they get older. My tanks 5 foot and even then I only keep on sae 


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## AverageWhiteBloke (9 Jan 2012)

I also find SAE's get a bit scrappy as well if more than one.


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## Ian Holdich (9 Jan 2012)

i would go as far to say add the Otos, i always have had them in about 6 week of a new scape/tank. As Long as you feed them they will be fine.


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## Antipofish (9 Jan 2012)

ianho said:
			
		

> i would go as far to say add the Otos, i always have had them in about 6 week of a new scape/tank. As Long as you feed them they will be fine.




Add the otos and leave the SAE out you mean ?  Whats the best stuff for them ?  I saw some Sera Spirulina tabs which stick to the glass, or would algae wafers be better for them ?  Im thinking 5 for my tank.  Is there a minimum size I should get them at Ian ?


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## Quetzalcoatl (9 Jan 2012)

SAE are great algae eaters initially. Trouble is they get a little lazy as they grow. At least in my experience they do? 
Also might be worth noting that they are jumpers, take heed if you are open top. On two occassions I have discovered this too late and found the deceased behind the tank.


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## Antipofish (9 Jan 2012)

Quetzalcoatl said:
			
		

> SAE are great algae eaters initially. Trouble is they get a little lazy as they grow. At least in my experience they do?
> Also might be worth noting that they are jumpers, take heed if you are open top. On two occassions I have discovered this too late and found the deceased behind the tank.



Sorry to hear that.  I am not open top luckily.  I may have some while they are small then rehome them.  Im sure someone would want a larger one for a larger tank.  Maybe not though.  I am actually hoping not to have too much algae


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## ghostsword (10 Jan 2012)

I got sae's and otos. My otos eat cucumber and pellets, nice fat belies. The sae eat bba and some flakes, but they do like to jump. I keep an sae per tank. 

I think the issue many people have with otos ia that they are wild caught, so many do come with bacterial infections, or are not fed properly at the shop. At home spread in tanks I may have close to 15 otos.


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## sanj (10 Jan 2012)

Alot of people dont have the best kind of SAE to start with, plus these fish grow to 6" ultimately and ideally should be kept in groups although I would not say it is a necessity. Still on a 175 litre that would limit what else you can stock. 
If it were me, I probably would consider Ottos and shrimp in a tank that size.


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## morefirejules08 (14 Jan 2012)

sorry to jump on this topic but i didnt really want to start a new thread, how are SAE's at eating BBA from a sand substrate and will they eat thread and staghorn algae? and how many should i keep in a 6 foot tank?

cheers


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## Antipofish (14 Jan 2012)

morefirejules08 said:
			
		

> sorry to jump on this topic but i didnt really want to start a new thread, how are SAE's at eating BBA from a sand substrate and will they eat thread and staghorn algae? and how many should i keep in a 6 foot tank?
> 
> cheers



no problem, its all part of the information thats useful to the original point of my thread so I will be just as interested in the answer to your question


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## Quetzalcoatl (14 Jan 2012)

I first introduced SAE to my tank because of this very reason. BBA. They went straight to work on it.   cleaned up the lot. However as I mentioned earlier, as they matured they aquired a taste for anything but algae. flake, wafers, bloodworm. Thankfully I have mastered the art of a (almost) algae free tank so the SAE reluctance to dine on it is not necessary?  

I have had mine about 8mths and they are roughly 3-4" already. I believe they will grow to around 6-7" I may be mistaken? They are quite boisterous though. If ever I have any floating plants, you can pretty much guarantee they are responsible.  In a 6 footer you`d probably be alright with around 4-6 due to their size when mature. Personally I wouldn`t keep them again, just because of their size, erratic behaviour, and tendency to uproot stuff!


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## Antipofish (14 Jan 2012)

Quetzalcoatl said:
			
		

> I first introduced SAE to my tank because of this very reason. BBA. They went straight to work on it.   cleaned up the lot. However as I mentioned earlier, as they matured they aquired a taste for anything but algae. flake, wafers, bloodworm. Thankfully I have mastered the art of a (almost) algae free tank so the SAE reluctance to dine on it is not necessary?
> 
> I have had mine about 8mths and they are roughly 3-4" already. I believe they will grow to around 6-7" I may be mistaken? They are quite boisterous though. If ever I have any floating plants, you can pretty much guarantee they are responsible.  In a 6 footer you`d probably be alright with around 4-6 due to their size when mature. Personally I wouldn`t keep them again, just because of their size, erratic behaviour, and tendency to uproot stuff!



Cheers for that.  Righto.  well there are some small ones at my lfs.  I have 5 otocinclus on order for when the tank is ready so I may just get one or two of these small SAE's and then look at rehoming them as/when they get too large   Not something I usually like to do, but I am keen to prevent any algae problems from the start, by having the appropriate clean up crew as well as trying to avoid it in the first place .


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## sanj (14 Jan 2012)

SAE will eat the food you feed other fish, but inbetween times they should be grazing the plants alot of the time. I have had mine since 2008 and while they will laze around a bit a substantial amount of time is given over to grazing the plants. I would not be without them. I have never had BBA issues since introducing them.

I am soon to set up another smaller tank approx 700 litres and i have a few young  and right kind of SAE (C.langei). It is true in comparison young ones are far more active in their virtually non-stop grazing.


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## Antipofish (14 Jan 2012)

sanj said:
			
		

> SAE will eat the food you feed other fish, but inbetween times they should be grazing the plants alot of the time. I have had mine since 2008 and while they will laze around a bit a substantial amount of time is given over to grazing the plants. I would not be without them. I have never had BBA issues since introducing them.
> 
> I am soon to set up another smaller tank approx 700 litres and i have a few young  and right kind of SAE (C.langei). It is true in comparison young ones are far more active in their virtually non-stop grazing.




I thought the right kind was Crossocheilus siamensis ???  Can anyone confirm ?


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## sanj (14 Jan 2012)

Hehe, that is what I tried to explain on the thread I wrote: "Which Crossocheilus Siamensis?"  You can see it if you browse down the fish topics a little. You will usually only find any of these related species labelled as Siamese Algae Eater or Crossocheilus siamensis, but as I explained, it is not actually a species, but a few species. I put some photos up to help people differentiate. Some people on here have had the bad experiance of having thier beloved moss being eaten up by their very own SAE, yet it was not the SAE they thought they had.


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## Antipofish (14 Jan 2012)

sanj said:
			
		

> Hehe, that is what I tried to explain on the thread I wrote: "Which Crossocheilus Siamensis?"  You can see it if you browse down the fish topics a little. You will usually only find any of these related species labelled as Siamese Algae Eater or Crossocheilus siamensis, but as I explained, it is not actually a species, but a few species. I put some photos up to help people differentiate. Some people on here have had the bad experiance of having thier beloved moss being eaten up by their very own SAE, yet it was not the SAE they thought they had.



I was going by the reference in a PFK article that I read http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3196.  I will go look for your thread.


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## sanj (14 Jan 2012)

That is fine and he probably did not know the difference at the time. The current name and usage is firmly established, it will take a long time to filter through for a change (if it ever does) and even then your average LFS will be unable to label them correctly. I notice frustratingly they are still rather poor when it comes to labeling rainbowfish species. Distinguishing between SAEs is much more difficult especially when juvenile.


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## Antipofish (15 Jan 2012)

sanj said:
			
		

> That is fine and he probably did not know the difference at the time. The current name and usage is firmly established, it will take a long time to filter through for a change (if it ever does) and even then your average LFS will be unable to label them correctly. I notice frustratingly they are still rather poor when it comes to labeling rainbowfish species. Distinguishing between SAEs is much more difficult especially when juvenile.



Are the wholesalers bringing them in correctly though, or offering them by proper name ? Because if not, this information makes no difference.  It's still pot luck.


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## sanj (15 Jan 2012)

I wouldnt say it is pot luck, I passed up on buying some juvies recently because they showed morphology akin to C.atrilimes. You can tell them apart as long as you know what to look for. Wholesalers are not making this distinction no.


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## Antipofish (15 Jan 2012)

sanj said:
			
		

> I wouldnt say it is pot luck, I passed up on buying some juvies recently because they showed morphology akin to C.atrilimes. You can tell them apart as long as you know what to look for. Wholesalers are not making this distinction no.



Precisely.  "As long as you know what you are looking for".  The differences are pretty negligible, especially taking into consideration fish are often not at their best in LFS tanks.  And I would say that anyone who had not kept these fish would have difficulty looking at some in an LFS and being able to determine one from the other.  Therefore, I maintain, if the wholesalers and retailers are not making a distinction, what you get is pot luck.


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## morefirejules08 (15 Jan 2012)

i have just picked up 3 C.reticulatus labeled as silver flying fox so lets see how they get on with eating my staghorn/thread and BBA


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## Antipofish (15 Jan 2012)

morefirejules08 said:
			
		

> i have just picked up 3 C.reticulatus labeled as silver flying fox so lets see how they get on with eating my staghorn/thread and BBA



Good luck.  The two places I have been to just decribe them as C. Siamensis, although they did both add the title "true flying fox" which I am now wondering whether that means "the right type of C. Siamensis" LOL


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## sanj (15 Jan 2012)

_C.reticulatus_ is very easy to tell apart from the species labelled as SAE. As for whether they will eat BBA im not sure, but they certainly graze algae generally. It shouldnt be labelled SAE or Flying Fox anywhere as it is the Reticulated Algae Eater. 

Hey ho, I long ago decided to regard the average LFS as a place where people sell fish, not a place where people are necessarily experts in knowing the fish they sell.


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## Antipofish (15 Jan 2012)

sanj said:
			
		

> _C.reticulatus_ is very easy to tell apart from the species labelled as SAE. As for whether they will eat BBA im not sure, but they certainly graze algae generally. It shouldnt be labelled SAE or Flying Fox anywhere as it is the Reticulated Algae Eater.
> 
> Hey ho, I long ago decided to regard the average LFS as a place where people sell fish, not a place where people are necessarily experts in knowing the fish they sell.



I totally agree with you there !  I only wish and dream of having somewhere like TGM down near me.  Its almost worth MOVING HOUSE for ! lol


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## morefirejules08 (15 Jan 2012)

sanj said:
			
		

> _C.reticulatus_ is very easy to tell apart from the species labelled as SAE. As for whether they will eat BBA im not sure, but they certainly graze algae generally. It shouldnt be labelled SAE or Flying Fox anywhere as it is the Reticulated Algae Eater.
> 
> Hey ho, I long ago decided to regard the average LFS as a place where people sell fish, not a place where people are necessarily experts in knowing the fish they sell.


this http://www.seriouslyfish.com/profile.php?genus=Crossocheilus&species=reticulatus&id=1327 suggests they will be rather good at the BBA at least, and it was your article that meant i recognized them in the fish shop, i even double check on my phone while i was in the shop!!


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## sanj (15 Jan 2012)

Yay! Im glad it has been of use to someone. 

Yes the web page states ;_ "C. reticulatus  is actually an efficient consumer of BBA although this isn't yet widely-reported". 
_

The reason I could not personally verify on RAE is becuase he was introduced at the same time as the SAEs back in 2008. He certainly munches away much of the time. 

Interestingly I have an RTB who has also been in there since 2008 aswell and these fish are general algae browsers, mowing the plants and hardscape for much of the time.
Arguably they could generally consume more algae than an SAE based on thier larger digestive system, but ofcourse most tanks can only ever cater for one at best and a no no with SAEs unless in a large tank of at least several hundred litres. Still RTBs arent known for consuming BBA.


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