# A theoretical question about EI



## Nat N (25 Jan 2013)

Hi all,
Just a theoretical question about EI. Everybody knows the formula which brings macros to an aquarium. Is it worth it to “tweak” it to suit individual requirements or is it not worth it?
I’ll explain what I mean – dosing slightly less of Nitrates and Magnesium in a sensitive shrimps tank for example – by using Magnesium Nitrate instead of Magnesium Sulphate and Potassium Nitrate – e.g. using Potassium Phosphate as a Potassium  and Phosphate source and Magnesium Nitrate as a Magnesium and Nitrate source? I have no idea, to be honest, but am guessing that using just Potassium Phosphate and Magnesium Nitrate would create a weaker concentration of Magnesium and Nitrate. This is just a guess, as I said... The purpose of this question is: I truly respect EI but is this an unchangeable “mantra” or a guidance which can be adapted to individual aquarium requirements?


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## ceg4048 (26 Jan 2013)

Hello,
		Yes, one can do as you propose, even though the basic premise is totally false. Shrimp do not care about the addition of inorganic nitrates and phosphates. However, if you plants then suffer from nitrate deficiency then you would have defeated the purpose and will need to add more. This potential can easily be mitigated by avoiding overzealous lighting.

EI was never meant to be an unchangeable mantra, and neither was it meant to be ball & chain. It takes the mantra form in order to De-program people who have exactly the same fear as you have just demonstrated, fear of NO3/PO4, which is a root cause of failures in planted tanks. When people adhere to the mantra, it doesn't take long for them to realize that they had previously been living in a dream world of fear and disinformation. The result of adhering to the mantra is almost always an immediate improvement in plant health as well as an improvement in fish and invert health.

EI is an interactive procedure and a world view who's focus is based on optimizing plant health via availability of unlimited nutrition. It is not a formula.

As you surmised, you can adjust any of the suggested values to fit your conditions. In the case of shrimp tanks or soft water tanks, the usual procedure is to reduce the dosing, because the addition of salts to the water raises the TDS significantly.

Cheers,


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## Nat N (27 Jan 2013)

Thanks for the reply Clive. I was half expecting that not many people will be confident enough to have some suggestions on this apart from you.
No, I don’t have a fear of NO3/PO4 – far from it. I am just trying to find a comfortable solution for myself wanting to try Red Crystals and a lush planted tank using just my tap water without having to resolve to RO...  Just trying to have what I want with a most optimum and time/labour saving regime...
My tap water has about 163 reading on the TDS meter (I realise it may be inaccurate but still it is a rough indication). Many sources quote that the Crystals are prone to Nitrate poisoning. FreshWaterShrimp present here on the UKAPS state that the TDS for RCS should be no higher than 180... Hence I was trying to understand if I can use SOME of EI method to maintain the plants whilst keeping the Crystals without having to resolve to RO... I have 6 planted tanks at the moment (well, for quite a long time) and have no problems with EI – and I really WANT to try the Crystals and I don’t want to make it far too much for myself to keep all these planted tanks going...


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## ceg4048 (28 Jan 2013)

Yes, almost every aquatic forum in the world love to blame NO3 for the death of their critters, yet they never actually prove it. They just carry on the myths from one generation to the next with no actual data. Why don't we ever hear people saying how sensitive shrimp are to NH3/NH4 or to hypoxia? That's much more plausible. How about higher sensitivity to CO2? People do not verify claims. What is being claimed about XYZ shrimp is exactly what is being claimed by discus people and by everyone else who's critters die. No autopsy, no analysis, no controlled tests, nothing, just a popular bogie man.

Barr's actual test data shows that NO3 toxicity of shrimp (Amano, not Crystal) to inorganic NO3 addition occurred somewhere between 120ppm-160ppm, which, yes, indicates a LOT more sensitivity than say, guppy fry, whose NO3 toxicity level was measured to be somewhere around 800ppm.

There is a huge difference between NO3 derived from organic breakdown of organic waste->NH3/NH4->NO2, versus the addition of inorganic NO3. It is that bacterial process that kills critters because they die from the Unholy Trinity of NH3/NH4 + NO2 + hypoxia.

Cheers,


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## Nat N (28 Jan 2013)

Thanks again. One of my aquariums I had in mind for RCS is definitely overfiltered – small 30 liters one with an external. I don’t think (or hope rather) that NH3/NH4 should not be a problem there. It has a CO2 addition but not overwhelming (I think). There is enough of oxygen from plants and light to moderate surface agitation – again, I hope. If I understand you correctly, the right way to go for me would be to reduce the organic compound in favour of an inorganic dosing...
There is one thing left: TDS. As I said before: getting a RO unit is out of question for me. I have a DI filter which I use to produce water for topping up evaporation – so far, so good. However, I am aware that filtering to get de-ionized water does not remove all the TDS from the tap water. I could try to use more of de-ionized water, however, - to make room for inorganic dosing...


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## ceg4048 (29 Jan 2013)

Yes, this would be a good way to go. I'm sorry, but I do not know what the acceptable TDS range for the various inverts are. Darrel, plantbrain and others will have a better idea. If you can find that data - *and if the data is verifiable* - then you can achieve that by using more DI water. For sure you'll want to have a TDS pen. Hanna is a good brand and I try to push their little multimeter as often as I can (expensive though) => Hanna HI 91380





What you want to avoid is to succumb to some of the popular TDS myths, a variety of which is offered in The Matrix, in which case your life will be made more complicated with little to no tangible gain.

Cheers,


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## Nat N (29 Jan 2013)

Thanks Clive. I think I have pretty much made up my mind on what I want/need to do and how I should do this.


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## Ravenswing (30 Jan 2013)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> What you want to avoid is to succumb to some of the popular TDS myths, a variety of which is offered in The Matrix, in which case your life will be made more complicated with little to no tangible gain.


 
Hi *Clive* and thank you, once again, for your very informative posts above. Sorry for hitchiking the thread but could you please tell more about these myths you refer to. We have very high EC (620-650uS) in our tap water so Im keen on this. This is one reason I have make few compromises when it comes to fertilizing as OP suggest. And new with Sakura-shrimps, too...but with them I use a bit RO-water.

I could get the quote work, grrrrr.

EDIT: CEG
OK, I fixed it. Like Paulo mentioned you had [quote="ceg4048] and so I put the second " just after the 8.


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## LondonDragon (30 Jan 2013)

Ravenswing said:


> I could get the quote work, grrrrr.


You missed an " after the nickname, you didn't close it, try that!


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## ceg4048 (30 Jan 2013)

Hi Raven,
			   The best way to quote is to highlight the text. Once you release the mouse button you should see a little pop-up message that says "Quote Me". Just click that pop-up and the quote appears in your draft. The syntax is a little different than it was in the old forum software.

Anyway, what I meant is that there are many people who give hard limits for various parameters. They do that because that was the value, i.e. 10GH, that they measured in their tanks when they had success, so that number becomes a kind of law. But there are other folks who have success with higher values, or folks who don't even bother to monitor that parameter and yet have no problems.

The thing about conductivity is that environmental pollution from the fish, shrimp, food and plants themselves also causes a rise in conductivity. So it can easily be that clean, unpolluted water at 650uS works fine but the organic pollution over weeks has an impact on the conductivity rise. 2 weeks later the conductivity might measure 750uS, which is a change of 100uS  but perhaps only 25uS change was caused by the nutrients. Perhaps the remaining 75uS change was caused by organic waste.

The thing to do is to measure the conductivity rise just after dosing to see how much is due to inorganic addition and measure it just before water change in order to determine how much is a result of pollution. It's almost always going to be the organic pollution in the tank that will do the most damage. The reason I say that is because there are studies out there which specifically target certain salts like Calcium Sulphate or Calcium Chloride to determine their toxicity to fish, inverts and other animals. The short term lethal levels are often shown to be in the 1000's of ppm, and the chronic long term toxicity levels are shown to be in the 100's of ppm.

There are plenty of people who do full EI dosing and their CRS breed like rabbits, so we should be careful about how we interpret the use of the TDS/Conductivity measurements. As I mentioned, I don't really have a handle on what the best TDS numbers are but, sure, dilute with  RO/DI to start off with  then monitor.

Cheers,


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## Ravenswing (30 Jan 2013)

Thank you both of you, Clive and Paulo, for your technical support. I have quoted few times but now...I thouht I tried everything.  Obviously not. Not my cup of tea today.

Clive, OK, I got the idea. Im trying to find the best way to live with such a high EC. Iv never known or red anyone having fish or shrimps at this hight EC without RO-water so I hope my experiences would help someone in the same situation. My main targets are keep the water as clean as possible from organic waste and plants happy with so little fertz as possible (wich is easy with low-lights) , Im not sure if I can do nothing more without RO-unit or peat filtration but thats not option either and would it solve the problem with high NaCl or NaOH anyway.... .Usually hobbyists here in Finland have EC around 200uS from tap. Its a bit confusing, even funny,  to read recommendations to keep fish X at EC levels 100-200uS ("or it will die") when it has thrived well in our 700uS water for some years by now. That shows how fish really can tolerate many kind of parameters and hobbyits are sometimes too pedantic. Well, spawning and fry might need more specific parameters.

Cheers, Maria


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## ceg4048 (30 Jan 2013)

Hi Maria,
			  Well if the tank is small enough maybe you can collect some water from your friends living in areas where the TDS is lower? What about collecting rain water in the Summer and Snow in the winter?

Cheers,


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## Ravenswing (31 Jan 2013)

Hi Clive!

Well...biggests tanks are 600-, 300- and 250-liter so...You know what Im going to say. There is hard metal- and concreteindustry in my home town not so far from here so Im bit worried about collecting rain water. In 20- and 45-l shrimp tanks I use a bit RO-water (EC 450uS), actually accumulator water for cars. I buy it in big canisters but its pretty cheap. We have very expensive tap water here so it becomes cheaper to buy RO-water in this case where I need it so little than buying a unit. I just noticed that one of Sakura-shrimps is carrying eggs, well see....

Thanks for correcting the quote and sorry for the mess!

Cheers, Maria


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## ceg4048 (31 Jan 2013)

Hi Maria,
			 It might be worth having a read of Coombes P.J., Kuczera et al Decade of Water Quality Research into Roof Collected Rainwater which measured rainwater content in both agricultural zones and in Industrial zones. The study shows that air pollution is generally washed away by the precipitation. Once water gets into the catchment tank, flocculation treatments such as this product, causes flocculation of the contaminants so that they are located in the biofilm within the tank on the inner walls, on the water surface or in the sludge at the bottom of the tank. If you pull the water from the middle of the tank with a standpipe then you avoid the potential risks. In fact, the risks associated with rainwater collection actually are more related to the dirt and materials on the roof such as fecal runoff from cats or rodents and birds, or from lead based paints of the roofing material. Even these can be mitigated by simply waiting for the 1/2 hour or so for the runoff before starting collection. Also, you can add items in the water collection circuit such as activated carbon, zeolite and Purigen or HMA resins/filters to add another layer of safety.

Additionally, basic cleaning of the catchment vessel and the piping to control buildup of sludge, soil and decaying vegetation, pollen and so forth will produce rain water which is actually as clean and contaminant free as that in your tap. A few easy ways around heavy metals, check the old thread=> home-made-water-purifier

Cheers,


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (31 Jan 2013)

Hey, sorry to barge in on your thread. But I thought this was relevant and wanted people to see it.

Clive, having just bought some extremely nice red plants. Some of them Are shooting green already(only added tues). I have some chelated Iron 13.2%, what quantity (per ei mix as instructed on your article) can i add to my Micro mix to bring the colours back?

Tank is high tech co2 injected. Tmc Grobeam tile 1000ND (I know, Fail. Reds don't show up as nice!) at 60%. Tanks in sig.

Cheers,




Cheers,


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## ceg4048 (31 Jan 2013)

Hi Nate,
			Golly I really have no idea mate. Colouration is not only a function of the dosing formulation, although some people severely restrict Nitrogen to reduce the visual impact of the dominant green chlorophyll. The pigment development is also a function of the intensity and spectrum, so if the grower was using different or stronger lighting than you are that could be a factor. It depends on a lot of things, including the type of plant.

Cheers,


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## Nat N (31 Jan 2013)

Hi all,
I am glad that my question led to a much wider discussion... I am thinking now about trying some rain water. It will be collecting “on the cheap” – without buying any water butts, etc. Just putting out a bucket and waiting for the rain to fill it up – that’s all. I have been under the “spell” of thinking that the rain water comes down contaminated with whatever. Thanks Clive – I am going to try the “bucket method” as we certainly do not have lack of rain in the UK for the last year.


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## ceg4048 (1 Feb 2013)

Hi Nat,
		 Yeah, no worries. Like I mentioned, to belt and brace it, just wait 1/2 hour or so after the rain or snow starts, then put the bucket out. Do some geeky tests for your own peace of mind. For example wait for the rain to start, run out and collect a small sample, then another small sample and then another, all the while keeping track of elapsed time. The samples will differ in "time from start" of rain, i.e., first 5 minutes, second 5 minutes, third 5 minutes and so on. Measure TDS on all samples. If the rain will be contaminated, then the first sample should measure the highest TDS, the second sample will have the next highest TDS and so forth. At some point, depending on the number of samples and the timing, the TDS readings will level out and this will give you an indication of how long to wait before collection. If there are no discernible differences then that means it doesn't matter when you start collection because any contaminants MUST show up as a TDS rise, even if you cannot identify the specific contaminant.

The trend in the data will vary depending on lots of things such as how much time has elapsed since the previous rain stopped, right? The air pollution will be higher during a drought than if it has been raining on-and-off. Do people around your way use fireplaces for example? If so then when it has been colder there will be more hydrocarbons from wood burning. When the rain captures it and brings it down, this should result in a higher initial TDS. So many different factors. That's why Coombes had to collect water over a 10 year period. Check the pH as well just to make sure that sulphides and other airborne salts aren't turning into acid rain. We've got a lot more pollution controls now so this shouldn't happen, but check it anyway.

Cheers,


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## Ravenswing (1 Feb 2013)

Hi Clive!

Thats ^ intetresting, too. I have to take a closer look links you gave, thanks for them and for your kind help. BTW, I have Purigen at home right now but I stopped using it after some bows got slime coat problems after big (>50%) WCs when using seachem Prime as waterconditioner. I went back to JBL Biotopol and after that there hasn been any slime coat problems. I have tried to age mytap water for 24 hours in 100l barrel with same damages. As far as I know, these slimecoat protectors are not advised to use with Purigen. Purigen also raised EC but never mind, it wasnt that much...Well, changing water 2xweek (=less but more often) is possible too.

I dont know how to thank for your help, your the first one to clarify this whole EC-thing, hope my experiences will help others,

Maria

P.s Nat N, Im very pleased you opend this thread. Hope you find your way to handle this and will keep shrips and fish with great succes!


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## Nat N (1 Feb 2013)

Hi all,
Ironic this may be but I was disappointed this evening when it started raining and the rain stopped after about 10 minutes! It was raining most of the time during the whole 2012 and it is not raining properly now when I actually do want some rain ideally during the weekend when I have much more time ... Last year a randomly left garden bucket in my back garden would fill with rainwater very quickly... (A remark – significant rainfalls last summer actually improved the overall health of the small wildlife pond I created in the back garden a few years ago, so I am hoping the rain is relatively “healthy” in my area).
It will rain sufficiently eventually before long here. I have a cheap TDS meter and ordered a Hanna one as well, so I will be fully prepared soon.
Clive – thanks for making those “little grey cells” work (quoting the famous Poirot). Maria – I am very impressed for the number and volume of aquariums you have, also it is very interesting to know about the hobby in different countries.
I am about to buy new media for my DI filter. From my experience with this filter, I am going to change the media volumes a bit. I think that the TDS have now increased in the filtered water due to the high volume of organic compound. I tested the water with the kit I still have (inaccurate, I know) which suggests that the resins still are not saturated and remove calcium-magnesium salts (or any other inorganic component) very well but the TDS have increased in the filtered water in the last month – I think this is due to the organics which are no longer removed. I am going to double the carbon in the filter just for the organics removal.


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## ceg4048 (3 Feb 2013)

Nat N said:


> Ironic this may be but I was disappointed this evening when it started raining and the rain stopped after about 10 minutes!


Hi Nat,
   Yes that's The Mother of all Ironies for people living in UK, so this indicates a potential Red Pill recipient. Stop now. This is your last chance. After this there is no turning back. You will have entered, and been trapped forever in The Kingdom...of...Geek.

I'm hoping we don't someday hear of you having been on the roof performing experiments.

Cheers,


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## Nat N (3 Feb 2013)

ceg4048 said:


> Yes that's The Mother of all Ironies for people living in UK, so this indicates a potential Red Pill recipient. Stop now. This is your last chance. After this there is no turning back. You will have entered, and been trapped forever in The Kingdom...of...Geek. I'm hoping we don't someday hear of you having been on the roof performing experiments.


The blokes at work suggested I was our own version of Trinity, so no coming back for me...
Waiting for the rainy weather to come (the forecast is for a dry week), I occupied myself with creating a little concoction of a slightly different mix than a standard EI – I based the “how much of what” on molar mass proportions from the formulas of each salt. (before anybody asks – no, I have not graduated from a University as a chemist). So, very flattering, Clive, thanks.
P.S. A report from the roof is probably to follow – depending on the circumstances!


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