# Still losing fish, is it co2?



## Something Fishy

Hi guys

Seem to still be losing fish on and off at odd times and no idea why. Still showing signs of buoyancy issues, even new tetras I got at the weekend are dying off and floating need the top.

Not sure why as params are fine and water change often.

Why would 3 or 4 turn ill overnight? I fed them last night and all fine, same amount of co2 all week, suddenly today 3/4 are dead?!?

80l tank with 30/40l sump but co2 only on around 1bps, not too much more than my nano tank!

Drop checker looks ok too?  Ironic as people say dumps degas too!

Fish seem to gasp for air but others just float about or die.

Also treated water with two lots of anti fungal and bacterial solution.

Just frustrating. 















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## sciencefiction

Sorry for your fishes.

If you think it's the CO2, why not stop for a week to rule it out? Algae risk or not, right now the focus should be on the fish.

If dropping the CO2 doesn't help, at least you know you need to look for the issue elsewhere.


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## Something Fishy

Video which may help too

https://streamable.com/3etmy


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## Something Fishy

sciencefiction said:


> Sorry for your fishes.
> 
> If you think it's the CO2, why not stop for a week to rule it out? Algae risk or not, right now the focus should be on the fish.
> 
> If dropping the CO2 doesn't help, at least you know you need to look for the issue elsewhere.



Thanks SF

Yeah I mean I’ve halfed it already and had no deaths for about a week, so I’m pretty baffled by this. That’s why I’m so annoyed as it’s intermittent, doesn’t seem to be ‘one’ thing.

As you said I’ll leave co2 off now for a week and see if I lose any more, but the gaps in between have made things super hard to judge.

Two batches of fish, Rummy and Neons, both different types have each shown signs of fish bladder problems and inability to breathe.  Just how fast these went is what’s thrown me - 3 in one day? With a 4th gasping in the video above.

Yet rest of the week since I’ve had them, no problems and all been feeding.


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## Something Fishy

Also a note on water params - Rummy Nose are always blood red and swimming about fine.


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## sciencefiction

The fish looks like it is struggling to breathe. 
It is hard to say what it is but whatever it is, is obstructing its breathing and could be caused by a range of things.

My first response would be a series of large water changes, starting with one really large, drain as much water as possible and remove any detritus from the filters. Then a daily water change as much as you can handle. If will help in all possible cases, i.e. bacterial, parasitic or water quality, etc..

By the way, what meds have you tried?


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## Something Fishy

sciencefiction said:


> The fish looks like it is struggling to breathe.
> It is hard to say what it is but whatever it is, is obstructing its breathing and could be caused by a range of things.
> 
> My first response would be a series of large water changes, starting with one really large, drain as much water as possible and remove any detritus from the filters. Then a daily water change as much as you can handle. If will help in all possible cases, i.e. bacterial, parasitic or water quality, etc..
> 
> By the way, what meds have you tried?



Yeah it sure does.

I tried a LoveFish one? From Pets at home which said it covers all things. After using it things subsided really fast and nothing. Now this again...

Did a 90% one on Sunday and lost two Rummys the day after due to water param shock I think, that’s a huge amount to swap out.

Happy to do more constant changes if it doesn’t stress the fish. It does point to something deeper than co2 as I’m pretty aware of it now and how much each drop does, having had my nano for 3 years with co2 daily.

Circulation is good in the tank and sump has masses of filtration, all clean.

I wonder if some of the plants carried something in too, or the co2 gas itself? If it was plants it took months to show up.


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## sciencefiction

Something Fishy said:


> Did a 90% one on Sunday and lost two Rummys the day after due to water param shock



I'd consider this for now a coincidence.

Also, if one is able to cause a shock via a water change, it just means that the water quality in the tank is not up to standards. Do you have a TDS meter by any chance?



Something Fishy said:


> I wonder if some of the plants carried something in too, or the co2 gas itself? If it was plants it took months to show up.



If it is the gas, stopping it should stop the deaths.

Other than that, the pathogenic organisms that infect fish are present in all tanks. They're only dangerous when fish's immune system is weak, high CO2 is a constant stressor and a range of other stuff can contribute to an outbreak as well.


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## Something Fishy

sciencefiction said:


> I'd consider this for now a coincidence.
> 
> Also, if one is able to cause a shock via a water change, it just means that the water quality in the tank is not up to standards. Do you have a TDS meter by any chance?
> 
> 
> 
> If it is the gas, stopping it should stop the deaths.
> 
> Other than that, the pathogenic organisms that infect fish are present in all tanks. They're only dangerous when fish's immune system is weak, high CO2 is a constant stressor and a ranger of other stuff.



I don’t think I do have a TDS meter no :/ could buy one. I’ll have a dog as I did get something to test water hardness in the tap.

Just odd as my tank uses same water supply and it’s been no problem at all, and likewise with how long the fish have been totally fine for so long. The fact so many died at once since yesterday has thrown me.

I am using the lush max ferts again, but Andy assured me ferts don’t harm fish unless extremes.

Can’t understand how much many fish are swimming ok when a set few all went at once.

A tad odd too as I got 24 neons st the weekend and now I can only count about 13, but no sign of the others anywhere.


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## sciencefiction

When illness hits a tank it's like that, mysterious. 
Also, it almost always seems to be species specific. Even tolerance to ammonia, CO2, oxygen levels is species specific and so are diseases although diseases can eventually spread to other species if there are too many fish infected, but a particular species is always the weakest link


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## sciencefiction

Sorry, forgot to ask, do you have a KH test at least? Make sure that hasn't dropped to zero, gasping is what happens when that drops. It is accompanied by high TDS levels vs tap water, hence I asked. Also, is your water soft?


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## Something Fishy

sciencefiction said:


> When illness hits a tank it's like that, mysterious.
> Also, it almost always seems to be species specific. Even tolerance to ammonia, CO2, oxygen levels is species specific and so are diseases although diseases can eventually spread to other species if there are too many fish infected, but a particular species is always the weakest link



Yeah fair point actually, it has been Rummy Nose and Neons, both mysteriously disappearing.

Ottos, loaches and pleco seem ok. Shrimp etc. even the Rummys that haven’t been infected. If it’s breathing and floating still it would be swim bladder disease presumably?


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## sciencefiction

Also, looking for info on the LoveFish med ingredients you mentioned, I came across this:

https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/whats-on/owners-fury-killer-fish-cleaner-1197202

_Davos Wintel, from Cirencester, claims the I Love Fish Fungus Treatment product sold by pet supplies retailer Pets at Home, is responsible for the sudden death of his entire tank of goldfish._
_
At least eleven customers have left feedback claiming it is responsible for the abrupt deaths of their exotic fish.

But another disgruntled customer said on the company's website he became alarmed when he used the product and "watched helplessly" as his fish "turned pale and sank lethargically to the gravel with their collapsed fins".

Another customer's feedback reads: "Awful AWFUL product. I feel terrible that I didn't do my research before on this product. Why is this even on the shelves?!"
_
Posting this just in case your initial issue was something else and it got escalated by the use of the med.
_
_


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## mort

Sorry you are having this trouble. Sciencefiction is covering most bases nicely but a quick thought of mine is 24 neons is a lot to add at one time and if you are buying them from p@h then they get lots of poor quality fish from their supplier and if its like the one near me they have a policy of putting all the sick fish in one tank, moving them from other racks (ie no disease control at all). So my suggestion would be either an initial ammonia problem after adding them or they brought something in with them. In truth today neons aren't particularly hardy compared to what they used to be and cardinals, the old weaker cousin, tend to be a much better quality fish. I'd follow the advice above and keep doing water changes and leave the co2 off and see if things settle down but be prepared for the need to medicate.


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## Something Fishy

mort said:


> Sorry you are having this trouble. Sciencefiction is covering most bases nicely but a quick thought of mine is 24 neons is a lot to add at one time and if you are buying them from p@h then they get lots of poor quality fish from their supplier and if its like the one near me they have a policy of putting all the sick fish in one tank, moving them from other racks (ie no disease control at all). So my suggestion would be either an initial ammonia problem after adding them or they brought something in with them. In truth today neons aren't particularly hardy compared to what they used to be and cardinals, the old weaker cousin, tend to be a much better quality fish. I'd follow the advice above and keep doing water changes and leave the co2 off and see if things settle down but be prepared for the need to medicate.



Thanks guys for the help.

Fish were bought elsewhere and I have heavily planted setup with a large filter and using Amazonia too so filter is pretty setup really. No spikes I detected before but I’ll do another test tomorrow pm.

Thanks for the tips I’ll try and test KH too sciencef, just Incase. 

Will report back and see what best med would be to use. Pretty confused still as just seems to go up and down.

Although I can’t rate P@h either, their meds didn’t obviously make things worse for me. Ingredient wise it smelt a little like a more natural disinfectant and perhaps it wasn’t strong enough. I presume the other brands on the shelves have a bit more precision regarding what they treat and you pay more for that too!


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## alto

It doesn’t look like a CO2 issue in the video

It does look as if fish is struggling for oxygen (except this isn’t an unusual symptom at end of life from various causes), it is struggling for balance but again this isn’t unusual at end of life (from various causes)

Most fish pathogens have a primary “target” but also migrate through the fish and can cause an assortment of symptoms/damage along the way, eg, Columnaris usually infiltrates gill tissue at start (and some remains in that area), then often progresses to the heart (some fish die from heart damage rather than the respiratory damage), then muscle tissue (the classic “saddle” lesion occurs much later in the disease progression, though most people don’t suspect Columnaris until this stage) etc -  as fish approach death, they lose ability to control body movements 

I doubt the possible disease in your tank is linked to plant purchase (plants are more likely a source of toxins such as herbicides, pesticides and death tends to be quite rapid) 
Something leaching from the substrate would be more likely (what substrate is in tank?)

Most probable disease source is other fish - new fish bringing something home (quarantine for minimum 2 weeks though 4-6 is better) or sharing potential pathogens which then develop into a disease state re stressed fish have significantly depressed immune systems - this transfer can go both ways between old/new fish 

I suggest a daily journal - this can help clarify disease progress, note fish behaviour, activity, respiration rate, food response, place in water column etc, etc 
If you’ve some sort of test kit or TDS etc, then include those values
Include routines as well, water changes, food changes ...

You don’t mention pleco size or shrimp number or snails? any or all of these will quickly disappear a neon corpse 

If you’ve been buying neons, replacing neons - they may be the disease source 
Example, neon tetra disease can decimate a shoal very quickly or chronically, in the former, the outward appearance tends to be very distinctive, if the latter, the colour loss pattern is not particularly strong and some fish will die without showing any colour loss at all

Treatment
The only disease which is easily treated (especially in home aquaria) is external parasites - and most stressed or ill fish will develop high counts (even as secondary complication) ... so follow a good protocol for external parasite treatment, wait 5-7 days, then repeat 

As an example, read Seachem’s treatment protocols for 
MetroPlex


> Active ingredients: metronidazole (70%) Inactive ingredients: excipients (30%)


https://www.seachem.com/metroplex.php
Note the 14-28 days treatment period (Ich & Velvet)

PolyGuard


> Active ingredients: sulfathiazole (36%), malachite green (1.9%), nitrofurantoin (0.14%), nitrofural (0.14%), quinacrine dihydrochloride (0.27%). Inactive ingredients: excipients (61%)


https://www.seachem.com/polyguard.php
Ich 14 days 

I realize you likely don’t have access to Seachem medications, but take note of their information availability and look for similar transparency from whichever company you choose (call & demand technical support)

Cheaper medications are often (much) less pure, lower activity etc, some are black market; always choose a reputable company/brand


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## alto

A book well worth the investment

The Manual of Fish Health

Authors: Adrian Exell, Neville Carrington, Chris Andrews

Even if you can’t source the suggested (proven effective) medications, you’ll learn about methods of treatment, disease signs, proven ineffective medications (and more)


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## Something Fishy

alto said:


> It doesn’t look like a CO2 issue in the video
> 
> It does look as if fish is struggling for oxygen (except this isn’t an unusual symptom at end of life from various causes), it is struggling for balance but again this isn’t unusual at end of life (from various causes)
> 
> Most fish pathogens have a primary “target” but also migrate through the fish and can cause an assortment of symptoms/damage along the way, eg, Columnaris usually infiltrates gill tissue at start (and some remains in that area), then often progresses to the heart (some fish die from heart damage rather than the respiratory damage), then muscle tissue (the classic “saddle” lesion occurs much later in the disease progression, though most people don’t suspect Columnaris until this stage) etc -  as fish approach death, they lose ability to control body movements
> 
> I doubt the possible disease in your tank is linked to plant purchase (plants are more likely a source of toxins such as herbicides, pesticides and death tends to be quite rapid)
> Something leaching from the substrate would be more likely (what substrate is in tank?)
> 
> Most probable disease source is other fish - new fish bringing something home (quarantine for minimum 2 weeks though 4-6 is better) or sharing potential pathogens which then develop into a disease state re stressed fish have significantly depressed immune systems - this transfer can go both ways between old/new fish
> 
> I suggest a daily journal - this can help clarify disease progress, note fish behaviour, activity, respiration rate, food response, place in water column etc, etc
> If you’ve some sort of test kit or TDS etc, then include those values
> Include routines as well, water changes, food changes ...
> 
> You don’t mention pleco size or shrimp number or snails? any or all of these will quickly disappear a neon corpse
> 
> If you’ve been buying neons, replacing neons - they may be the disease source
> Example, neon tetra disease can decimate a shoal very quickly or chronically, in the former, the outward appearance tends to be very distinctive, if the latter, the colour loss pattern is not particularly strong and some fish will die without showing any colour loss at all
> 
> Treatment
> The only disease which is easily treated (especially in home aquaria) is external parasites - and most stressed or ill fish will develop high counts (even as secondary complication) ... so follow a good protocol for external parasite treatment, wait 5-7 days, then repeat
> 
> As an example, read Seachem’s treatment protocols for
> MetroPlex
> 
> https://www.seachem.com/metroplex.php
> Note the 14-28 days treatment period (Ich & Velvet)
> 
> PolyGuard
> 
> https://www.seachem.com/polyguard.php
> Ich 14 days
> 
> I realize you likely don’t have access to Seachem medications, but take note of their information availability and look for similar transparency from whichever company you choose (call & demand technical support)
> 
> Cheaper medications are often (much) less pure, lower activity etc, some are black market; always choose a reputable company/brand



Thank you, this is super helpful.

I have a spare 40l tank too - worth using that at all to try and monitor and diagnose?

Other fish not huge but have some large Amano Shrimp, a couple in the tank and around. Two keep going over my guards and into the sump which is a real pain. I’m considering using a filter again instead of a sump as it’s a bit of a nightmare in terms of overflow rate and keeping it topped up, and keep the grill small.

Neons could be a source you’re right, but the Rummy Nose we’re passing things around for a while and I was losing them until I treated and did a huge water change. Since then it’s been much better, but now these tetras seem to be unhappy and dying off again too a few weeks on after being added.

Substrate is just marine coral sand and Amazonia. Freshly bought.

Wood has been in other tanks before but been cleaned and soaked for weeks before using and I started the tank emersed too.

Will do some readings tonight.

Is it better to try and flash the water column with UV and do some heavy water changes?

Thank you




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## Kalum

Marine coral sand.....

This will be buffering your water pretty high and alkaline (probably above 8 unless really old) and tetras should ideally be kept in acidic water and low ph. 

They might have been reared in hard water but I would still guess that they wouldn't thrive in a high ph environment when compared to low


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## alto

Kalum said:


> Marine coral sand.....
> 
> This will be buffering your water pretty high and alkaline (probably above 8 unless really old)


Maybe yes, maybe no
Using the same product -  Carib Sea Indo Pacific Black and Bimini Pink - first lot barely brought my pH to 7.0 (from 6.0-6.4 taps) 
* note I only used small amounts for “beach” or as a substrate additive to hopefully provide some KH in a more stable manner than powder additives at water change

Then abandoned my tanks for a few years as other things took priority 

Went right out and bought the (assumed) same product (slightly updated bag photo), from the same shop, set up tanks and watched    as my pH headed 9wards and stayed there 
That was a fun return to Aquariums


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## alto

Something Fishy said:


> Is it better to try and flash the water column with UV and do some heavy water changes?


If you already own the UV, it can’t hurt but it’s likely worth buying a new UV bulb (depending upon age and use, especially ON/OFF events)
Unfortunately most aquarium grade UV’s lack the intensity, or intensity + dwell time, to do significant damage to any of the common fish pathogens - though they can be useful for water clarity 

Marine sand can be very good at binding medications (eg copper is always a concern but this is only likely to be released at levels that affect shrimp, not fish), “inactive” parasite stages can also go underground as it were in the sand (likely coincidental to sand sifting/shifting movement rather than as a survival strategy ... except it rather looks as if certain strains of Columnaris might be doing just that with respect to natural water sludge environments)
Sooooo I always harbour a certain suspicion of sands ... but would not encourage you to replace yours
You should check for any pH, GH, KH effects 



Something Fishy said:


> but the Rummy Nose we’re passing things around for a while and I was losing them until I treated and did a huge water change


In the last year or so, I have seen shipments of Rummy’s, Cardinals, Neons arrive with what I suspect is some strain(s) of Columnaris (this is a tricky pathogen as the same strain in the same batch of fish, which are then separated to different environments, may display significantly different disease progressions)
Hikari BiFuran is a med of choice (for the home Aquarist, note that a similar, differently branded formulation is nowhere near as effective and much more stressful to fish - but I suspect you can source neither, though it’s always worth checking with your vet (again regulations vary))
http://www.hikariusa.com/water_quality_folder/bifuran.html
It doesn’t “cure” Columnaris but it significantly improves survival rates 

Soft acidic water, lots of water changes, lots of water/fish, no substrate (re C’s ability to slowly “tick over” in sludge environs - though I’m doubtful this happens in a well planted, good circulation, frequent water change aquarium substrate), lower temperature 22-23C all act to improve mortality rates for Columnaris infected fish
As mentioned previously, any stressor (for fish), can dramatically reduce survival rates (resistance to infection, ability to develop a rapid and effective immune response against the Horde of potential pathogens that are part of normal Fish Life)
Fish should show no signs of anything but perfect health for at least 2 months, before assuming that Columnaris is absent rather than just being held at bay by fish immune system (change _something_ so fish become stressed and suddenly you’re back to identifiably ill fish)

Maybe this is what’s happening in your tank, maybe not ... without sacrificing fish for necropsy you can’t know (& you still need sufficient numbers for this to reliably represent a group)
It’s equally likely that new fish just came with new friends/old enemies 

As for the 40L tank, although a bare tank is optimum for monitoring & controlling pathogens, fish stress level may be equally important 
Some fish species/groups appear very relaxed in bare tanks with suitable (dim) lighting (vibrations and any “looming” predators also act as significant stressors) and *sufficient* numbers, others maintain considerable stress levels regardless (imagine recently wild caught altums)
If tank is long and narrow with sufficient swimming space, it may be worth a go - Neons are usually much more comfortable in smaller glass boxes than Rummy’s




Something Fishy said:


> Two keep going over my guards and into the sump which is a real pain.


So let ‘em live there 


In Summary 
You can’t go wrong with large frequent water changes
Reduce temperature to lowest manageable, looking at possible Rummy species, I’d choose 22-23C - this should slow  everything down and allow you and fish time to “breath” (Neons are more adaptable in this regard)
Vacuum substrate, remove visible debris as much as possible
Keep filter as clean as possible (eg weekly prefilter change)
Feed little, often
If it’s possible to reduce light intensity without triggering plant unhappiness, then do that as well - though happy plants generally mean happy fish ... you might just reduce length of photoperiod instead and come out ahead 

If after 3-5 days (with water changes), Rummy’s are looking decidedly unhappy, slowly increase temp to find the lowest they are “happy”

I would maintain the status quo for at least 4 months before bringing in any new fish
Plan to quarantine fish before adding to community
Some people will move a few community tank fish to the Q tank for a couple weeks before finally adding new fish to main tank (but again the Q tank needs to provide a suitable environment)


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## Something Fishy

Thanks for super in-depth info alto much appreciated 

Tempted to try and eheim pro filter instead of a sump and simplify that aspect at least. I think a filter might be easier to manage in terms of less things to go wrong and contain infection.

How can I clear the infection or know when that’s done? Will constant water changes eventually clear the infected pathogens?


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## Something Fishy

Caught a glimpse of another neon on his way during a water change. This is the kinda thing they’ve been doing even the Rummy Nose before were the same 

https://streamable.com/2psoc



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## Something Fishy

alto said:


> If you already own the UV, it can’t hurt but it’s likely worth buying a new UV bulb (depending upon age and use, especially ON/OFF events)
> Unfortunately most aquarium grade UV’s lack the intensity, or intensity + dwell time, to do significant damage to any of the common fish pathogens - though they can be useful for water clarity
> 
> Marine sand can be very good at binding medications (eg copper is always a concern but this is only likely to be released at levels that affect shrimp, not fish), “inactive” parasite stages can also go underground as it were in the sand (likely coincidental to sand sifting/shifting movement rather than as a survival strategy ... except it rather looks as if certain strains of Columnaris might be doing just that with respect to natural water sludge environments)
> Sooooo I always harbour a certain suspicion of sands ... but would not encourage you to replace yours
> You should check for any pH, GH, KH effects
> 
> 
> In the last year or so, I have seen shipments of Rummy’s, Cardinals, Neons arrive with what I suspect is some strain(s) of Columnaris (this is a tricky pathogen as the same strain in the same batch of fish, which are then separated to different environments, may display significantly different disease progressions)
> Hikari BiFuran is a med of choice (for the home Aquarist, note that a similar, differently branded formulation is nowhere near as effective and much more stressful to fish - but I suspect you can source neither, though it’s always worth checking with your vet (again regulations vary))
> http://www.hikariusa.com/water_quality_folder/bifuran.html
> It doesn’t “cure” Columnaris but it significantly improves survival rates
> 
> Soft acidic water, lots of water changes, lots of water/fish, no substrate (re C’s ability to slowly “tick over” in sludge environs - though I’m doubtful this happens in a well planted, good circulation, frequent water change aquarium substrate), lower temperature 22-23C all act to improve mortality rates for Columnaris infected fish
> As mentioned previously, any stressor (for fish), can dramatically reduce survival rates (resistance to infection, ability to develop a rapid and effective immune response against the Horde of potential pathogens that are part of normal Fish Life)
> Fish should show no signs of anything but perfect health for at least 2 months, before assuming that Columnaris is absent rather than just being held at bay by fish immune system (change _something_ so fish become stressed and suddenly you’re back to identifiably ill fish)
> 
> Maybe this is what’s happening in your tank, maybe not ... without sacrificing fish for necropsy you can’t know (& you still need sufficient numbers for this to reliably represent a group)
> It’s equally likely that new fish just came with new friends/old enemies
> 
> As for the 40L tank, although a bare tank is optimum for monitoring & controlling pathogens, fish stress level may be equally important
> Some fish species/groups appear very relaxed in bare tanks with suitable (dim) lighting (vibrations and any “looming” predators also act as significant stressors) and *sufficient* numbers, others maintain considerable stress levels regardless (imagine recently wild caught altums)
> If tank is long and narrow with sufficient swimming space, it may be worth a go - Neons are usually much more comfortable in smaller glass boxes than Rummy’s
> 
> 
> 
> So let ‘em live there
> 
> 
> In Summary
> You can’t go wrong with large frequent water changes
> Reduce temperature to lowest manageable, looking at possible Rummy species, I’d choose 22-23C - this should slow  everything down and allow you and fish time to “breath” (Neons are more adaptable in this regard)
> Vacuum substrate, remove visible debris as much as possible
> Keep filter as clean as possible (eg weekly prefilter change)
> Feed little, often
> If it’s possible to reduce light intensity without triggering plant unhappiness, then do that as well - though happy plants generally mean happy fish ... you might just reduce length of photoperiod instead and come out ahead
> 
> If after 3-5 days (with water changes), Rummy’s are looking decidedly unhappy, slowly increase temp to find the lowest they are “happy”
> 
> I would maintain the status quo for at least 4 months before bringing in any new fish
> Plan to quarantine fish before adding to community
> Some people will move a few community tank fish to the Q tank for a couple weeks before finally adding new fish to main tank (but again the Q tank needs to provide a suitable environment)



Would activate carbon along with water changes help in the removal of water born pathogens do you think?

This is interesting 

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es061282r?journalCode=esthag


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## alto

Something Fishy said:


> Caught a glimpse of another neon on his way during a water change. This is the kinda thing they’ve been doing even the Rummy Nose before were the same
> 
> https://streamable.com/2psoc
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



To me this movement is really just indicative of a very weak fish 
More interesting is the gills, which appear very red and open (swollen or flared, not easy to discern in video) - note this symptom may also appear just prior to death as fish is struggling for oxygen, but this fish has notably red gill tissue
Fins are not clamped - which they generally are with (skin) parasites such ich and velvet 
Very erect/wide spread fins are something I associate with bacterial infections (& possibly viral infections - but not iridovirus (which are among the most common fish viral infections))


Are you certain there is no Nitrite issue in your aquarium?

Ammonia at the level to create a gill response like that would be deteriorating fins 
The clean looking fins of fish in that video are interesting as there appears to be no damage, is this typical of all fish in the aquarium?


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## alto

Something Fishy said:


> Will constant water changes eventually clear the infected pathogens?


Optimum water quality is just there to maximize fish health 
- though it can have a diluting effect on pathogen levels as well 

Ill fish, especially in the 24-36h before death, “shed” loads of parasites - there’s a paper somewhere (though not public access as I recall) showing pathogens departing the dying host
For this reason, I’d remove any fish such as the Neon in videoclip to the 40L


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## alto

Something Fishy said:


> Would activate carbon along with water changes help in the removal of water born pathogens do you think?
> 
> This is interesting
> 
> https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es061282r?journalCode=esthag
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I’d be surprised if this applied to common fish pathogens 

Activated carbon (look for high quality marine grade) would be fine to add to your filter, manufacturer will suggest suitable amount per water volume, I’d replace frequently (ie not every 2 months)


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## Something Fishy

alto said:


> To me this movement is really just indicative of a very weak fish
> More interesting is the gills, which appear very red and open (swollen or flared, not easy to discern in video) - note this symptom may also appear just prior to death as fish is struggling for oxygen, but this fish has notably red gill tissue
> Fins are not clamped - which they generally are with (skin) parasites such ich and velvet
> Very erect/wide spread fins are something I associate with bacterial infections (& possibly viral infections - but not iridovirus (which are among the most common fish viral infections))
> 
> 
> Are you certain there is no Nitrite issue in your aquarium?
> 
> Ammonia at the level to create a gill response like that would be deteriorating fins
> The clean looking fins of fish in that video are interesting as there appears to be no damage, is this typical of all fish in the aquarium?



Yeah all fish look like that and the Rummy Nose are so healthy and coloured up, as were the tetras on Wednesday.  I saw the gill thing too and thought it odd. It must be the same for the others too - why would only some be displaying that though? Points to infection?

Ammonia is 0 in the water as is nitrite. Pretty baffling for me.

I’ve posted on my tank thread as I’ve redone my sump now so there’s much more directional flow. 

All the fish are healthy looking and here is a video I took just on Wednesday, and Thursday was when I found 3 dead when I came home.  They are well and none showed odd signs then.

I’ll look up my kit when I get back and see how many params I can test and will post on here.

https://streamable.com/zii5k

Thanks


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## sciencefiction

Did you happen to test KH, Ph, etc by any chance, of both tap and tank water?


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## sciencefiction

Gasping, odd swimming, whirling is very common in what we call pH shock.
It can happen if one has too soft water and goes further more acidic, KH drop and pH plummeting down but it can also happen in hard water when one has overfed, overstocked the tank and the KH drops, again followed by pH drop, known as old tank syndrome.
It can generally happen if your tank's water parameters for any reason are very different from the tap.

Alternatively, protozoa can also be involved, such as cryptobia. If your water parameters are stable, tank and tap are the same, the long shot is trying to treat with Waterlife octozin. But it is just a guess on my part. It is just something I would do in your situation but only after eliminating water quality as an issue.

If your tank is not overstocked, you change good amount of water weekly as a rule,and the parameters are stable, etc.. the causes are less likely to be bacterial and more likely protzoan or worm type related. Bacterial diseases are often secondary to either poor water quality or some sort of parastic infection damaging the fish's defense mechanisms. In cleaner water, I think in terms of worms and parasites. In dirty water, bacteria, and in fact in dirty tanks bacterial and fungal diseases are common, I call it the newbie syndrome.


----------



## Something Fishy

sciencefiction said:


> Gasping, odd swimming, whirling is very common in what we call pH shock.
> It can happen if one has too soft water and goes further more acidic, KH drop and pH plummeting down but it can also happen in hard water when one has overfed, overstocked the tank and the KH drops, again followed by pH drop, known as old tank syndrome.
> It can generally happen if your tank's water parameters for any reason are very different from the tap.
> 
> Alternatively, protozoa can also be involved, such as cryptobia. If your water parameters are stable, tank and tap are the same, the long shot is trying to treat with Waterlife octozin. But it is just a guess on my part. It is just something I would do in your situation but only after eliminating water quality as an issue.
> 
> If your tank is not overstocked, you change good amount of water weekly as a rule,and the parameters are stable, etc.. the causes are less likely to be bacterial and more likely protzoan or worm type related. Bacterial diseases are often secondary to either poor water quality or some sort of parastic infection damaging the fish's defense mechanisms. In cleaner water, I think in terms of worms and parasites. In dirty water, bacteria, and in fact in dirty tanks bacterial and fungal diseases are common, I call it the newbie syndrome.



I’ll get some readings for you tomorrow mate, appreciate your input here all sounds very feasible.

Water quality I’ve been changing 90% weekly so not sure on that one. I did see small worms a few weeks ago but online said harmless, not seen many since.

I found with so much javafern that it was hard to monitor if it was dying in the water as it was traveling in the post for so long too. Water has been fairly green for some while too after just a couple of days of dosing ferts. 

Are fertilizers definitely not able to cause harm to the fish in relatively small doses, say 4ml in this instance daily.


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## sciencefiction

Something Fishy said:


> Water quality I’ve been changing 90% weekly so not sure on that one. I did see small worms a few weeks ago but online said harmless, not seen many since.



You will not see the protozoa or worms I mentioned with a naked eye. It is normal in a tank to have some odd creatures which are not parasitic in nature, neither did they come from the fish or will infect fish.

Posting water parameters would be great to rule out possible causes. 



Something Fishy said:


> Are fertilizers definitely not able to cause harm to the fish in relatively small doses, say 4ml in this instance daily.



Not directly, not the actual chemical but accumulation of unused ferts leads to rise in TDS. Rise and drop in TDS can cause TDS shock and having a TDS meter to monitor tank and incoming water can prevent that. Water changes should be always enough to prevent that or the dosing should be careful not to allow massive increase... Many plant keepers end up with much higher TDS than their tap water or water used for water changes. Then they do a 90% water change.....guess what happens to the fishes....


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## sciencefiction

Something Fishy said:


> Water has been fairly green for some while too after just a couple of days of dosing ferts



Green water is caused by elevated ammonia levels accompanied by light. The algae in the water is consuming it, turning it green. I did not see your water being green at all on the videos...What ferts are you dosing? Make sure they don't have any ammonium/urea in them.


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## Something Fishy

sciencefiction said:


> Green water is caused by elevated ammonia levels accompanied by light. The algae in the water is consuming it, turning it green. I did not see your water being green at all on the videos...What ferts are you dosing? Make sure they don't have any ammonium/urea in them.



They are the Lush Max ones from Andy on here. I don’t want to point the blame at him every time so apologies Andy! I’m just trying to rule everything out here and the ferts are a common additive for me recently. I’ll try using different ones for a while as I have micro macro ones too I use on my other tank.


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## sciencefiction

Just check the ingredients. I doubt it they have urea but it's something to rule out as it will obviously affect water quality. The green water may not be from the ferts at all. I am not sure what the med you used recently contained but it may have wiped out some of your good bacteria depending on the ingredients. Unfortunately I could not find anything about it.


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## alto

sciencefiction said:


> Green water is caused by elevated ammonia levels accompanied by light.



Why do you say this?

(I’ve seen this posted by others as well and always wonder at the statement)

Green Water is an annual occurrence here (shop tanks as well as my own (& friends etc)), as it occurs naturally in the giant ponds our tap water comes from.

GW also occurs in the dimly lit as well as brightly lit tanks ... though perhaps your “accompanied by light” presumes ANY light.

While there may be measurable ammonia in the Reservoirs, there is certainly no measurable ammonia in my home aquaria, not even during my “pea soup” adventures


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## sciencefiction

alto said:


> though perhaps your “accompanied by light” presumes ANY light.



Yes, any light



alto said:


> While there may be measurable ammonia in the Reservoirs, there is certainly no measurable ammonia in my home aquaria, not even during my “pea soup” adventures



I don't think of ammonia as only being present when the test says so. Ammonia is present in a tank 24/7. It is either converted by the micro-organisms in the tank or it is being consumed by algae and plants.The level goes up and down and in a stable tank it should never be high enough to come up on a test. In a non-planted tank subjected to a rise in nitrogenous waste you get algae, in the form of green water or diatoms, worse case scenario BBA.

I used to have a deep green water guppy tank, not much water changed, no filter, near the window back in the day. I'd say that's what kept my fish alive...the algae in the water and biofilm on the glass, that I never cleaned...


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## alto

Double post


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## alto

sciencefiction said:


> Gasping, odd swimming, whirling is very common in what we call pH shock.
> It can happen if one has too soft water and goes further more acidic, KH drop and pH plummeting down but it can also happen in hard water when one has overfed, overstocked the tank and the KH drops, again followed by pH drop, known as old tank syndrome.
> It can generally happen if your tank's water parameters for any reason are very different from the tap.


Again I’m somewhat sceptical

I’ve unbagged thousands of transship fish, most of which are coming out of (far) less than optimum bag conditions, also often dissimilar water parameters and this type of response is rare (as in, I’ve observed it a few times over 4-5 years)

Generally, very distressed fish will just remain on the bottom of the tank, unmoving except for extended, slow gill movements - left in dark overnight, they are almost always up and about, looking remarkably normal the next morning.
Sometimes these fish will show symptoms of external parasites (ich remains the most likely) the next day and receive treatment

Those extended red gills are unlike anything commonly observed in transship fish (re this group of fish obviously experiences considerable and common water parameter “shock”)

@Something Fishy 
a possible useful read 
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/vm077


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## Something Fishy

sciencefiction said:


> Just check the ingredients. I doubt it they have urea but it's something to rule out as it will obviously affect water quality. The green water may not be from the ferts at all. I am not sure what the med you used recently contained but it may have wiped out some of your good bacteria depending on the ingredients. Unfortunately I could not find anything about it.



This is the one mate http://www.petsathome.com/shop/en/pets/love-fish-fungus-treatment#


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## sciencefiction

alto said:


> Again I’m somewhat sceptical



It has happened to me unfortunately, when the KH dropped to zero and pH plummeted.  The sign is gasping at the surface, swimming vertically at the surface and losing balance or just sitting motionless on the substrate as you mentioned....At that stage the fish may not survive but many actually did in my case as I restored the water quality pretty fast, knowing the issue first hand. 



alto said:


> also often dissimilar water parameters



What I am talking about is a scenario when KH goes down to zero. KH drops down due to nitrification. Bigger rates of nitrification, bigger drop, bigger risk if water is not changed sufficiently. Softer water is even more dangerous as the KH is low from get go.  This is not to do with moving fish from one tank with good water quality to another. Fish normally adjust as long as there no extremes. Monitoring the TDS increase from tap is a preventative as increasing TDS is a sign of poor water quality and things spiral down from there...


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## sciencefiction

alto said:


> In the last year or so, I have seen shipments of Rummy’s, Cardinals, Neons arrive with what I suspect is some strain(s) of Columnaris (this is a tricky pathogen as the same strain in the same batch of fish, which are then separated to different environments, may display significantly different disease progressions)



I highly doubt this has anything to do with columnaris. Unfortunately I've had to deal with that also that came with my newly purchased harlequin rasboras. In my case after treatment with antibiotic, the fish that showed no symptoms survived the ordeal. The antibiotic stopped the spread almost immediately. I understand there are different strains but here in Europe, due to lack of access to antibotics for fish treatment, one has little chance at eradicating it, especially on a bigger scale such as fish shops.


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## sciencefiction

Something Fishy said:


> This is the one mate http://www.petsathome.com/shop/en/pets/love-fish-fungus-treatment#
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Thanks mate but impossible to find what's in it


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## Something Fishy

sciencefiction said:


> Thanks mate but impossible to find what's in it



Yeah I noticed that too :/

Bit mysterious coupled with the awful reviews. Although people have all seemed to be out to get it before they even used it lol. 


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## sciencefiction

Something Fishy said:


> Yeah I noticed that too :/
> 
> Bit mysterious coupled with the awful reviews. Although people have all seemed to be out to get it before they even used it lol.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Generally those type of meds labelled anti-fungus also contain formalin which is also effective against different protozoa and parasitic worms,hence I suspect it is the real reason you had a reduction in deaths, and not its antifungal/antibacterial effect.
Formalin can turn into par formaldehyde in the right conditions, and wipe the tank out. There are way safer meds for both parasites, bacteria and fungus that don't carry the toxic risk.


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## sciencefiction

Was there any colour to the med by the way, green or blue?


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## Something Fishy

sciencefiction said:


> Generally those type of meds labelled anti-fungus also contain formalin which is also effective against different protozoa and parasitic worms,hence I suspect it is the real reason you had a reduction in deaths, and not its antifungal/antibacterial effect.
> Formalin can turn into par formaldehyde in the right conditions, and wipe the tank out. There are way safer meds for both parasites, bacteria and fungus that don't carry the toxic risk.



Sounds pretty volatile for a catch all medicine ha!

I noticed it smelt quite pleasant if that helps. It was medicinal but creamy in appearance, smelt quite fragrant.


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## Something Fishy

sciencefiction said:


> Was there any colour to the med by the way, green or blue?











Phenoxyethanol it is...



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## Something Fishy

Anybody know if that’s any good?

Probably why it didn’t do much as it wasn’t a decent medicine.


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## sciencefiction

We don't know if its a disease yet


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## sciencefiction

Something Fishy said:


> Anybody know if that’s any good?



It's the second ingredient in the baby wipes I am holding here


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## sciencefiction

Joke aside, it's a disinfectant, used in cosmetics but also effective against gram negative and gram positive bacteria. It can also be used as anesthetic/sedative for fish.


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## Something Fishy

That’s true, but it’s certainly pointing that way. I’ve stopped fertilizers for a couple of days and co2, fish still behaving the same so it wasn’t co2 making them short of breath.

Now I also know the medicine was likely not effective leads to the reasoning to assume it probably did nothing and the pathogen, if indeed it is that, will be in the tank still.

Is the Tetra catch all one any good, or the Seachem one?

Cleaned the whole system yesterday and rebuilt the sump so it’s even more chambered.

As promised I will take readings and submit here.


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## Something Fishy

sciencefiction said:


> It's the second ingredient in the baby wipes I am holding here



That’s the smell I recognized haha


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## sciencefiction

Something Fishy said:


> Is the Tetra catch all one any good, or the Seachem one?



This is totally not the way to approach the issue. Random picking of meds does nothing and the chances to use the right med for what the fish have are little to none, hence most people never "cure" the fish. I actually already suggested a med, if I was to use one in your scenario but only after fully evaluating the water.

Did you test your KH tap and tank?


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## sciencefiction

sciencefiction said:


> If your water parameters are stable, tank and tap are the same, the long shot is trying to treat with Waterlife octozin



The most likely pathogens that affect the nervous system are flagellates/protozoa  and waterlife octozin targets that with its main ingredient being dimetridazole. The symptoms can be whirling, byoncy issues, swimming vertically, swimming upside down, breathing problems, and in some cases depending on the pathogen, shimming, wasting, lack of appetite, even dropsy, bloat, etc...Short of water quality issues, flagellates will be my guess.

Having said that, I personally use medication as a last resort and I have learned to be patient. Meds are not magic, they knock off the biggest load but the actual healing is the fish's immune system so water quality has got to be checked and fixed. Water quality can be the actual issue, or the actual trigger or infection as fish are constantly in contact with pathogens and naturally fight them off when healthy and in a the right environment.


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## Something Fishy

sciencefiction said:


> The most likely pathogens that affect the nervous system are flagellates/protozoa  and waterlife octozin targets that with its main ingredient being dimetridazole. The symptoms can be whirling, byoncy issues, swimming vertically, swimming upside down, breathing problems, and in some cases depending on the pathogen, shimming, wasting, lack of appetite, even dropsy, etc...Short of water quality issues, flagellates will be my guess.
> 
> Having said that, I personally use medication as a last resort and I have learned to be patient. Meds are not magic, they knock off the biggest load but the actual healing is the fish's immune system so water quality has got to be checked and fixed. Water quality can be the actual issue, or the actual trigger or infection as fish are constantly in contact with pathogens and naturally fight them off when healthy and in a the right environment.



Cool ok, so keep up water changes and possibly try a decent medicine treatment? Might use the Seachem one as all their stuff is solid for me so far.

I may add my Chihiros doctor back in there too for a while and see if that helps too 


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## sciencefiction

Something Fishy said:


> and possibly try a decent medicine treatment. Might use the Seachem one as all their stuff is solid for me so far.



Not what I said


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## sciencefiction

Something Fishy, certain meds treat certain things in a narrow range. There's no such a thing as "decent medicine". They only treat what they're are supposed to. There's no "treat all" medicine available or it would have been the discovery of the history of the world. Fish are like humans, you need to treat with the proper med after thoroughly evaluating the situation and it is still an educated guess unless you submit a fish for autopsy.


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## Something Fishy

sciencefiction said:


> Not what I said



Ha sorry I know.

That one I meant https://www.swelluk.com/seachem-par...uULqqLSqtC-tyQl7UIEmbRBCSJaCGeIhoCnocQAvD_BwE

I’ll look into whet you suggested. I saw that one only as I noticed the gill problem and thought it might be an infection linked to those.


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## sciencefiction

Something Fishy said:


> I’ll look into whet you suggested. I saw that one only as I noticed the gill problem and thought it might be an infection linked to those.



This med is for ectoparasites. External parasites don't cause vertical swimming or buoyancy issues.  The common symptoms are flashing, scraping, etc..and most ectoparasites are visible to the naked eye, e.g. flukes and whitespot. I do not think Seachem Paraguard would have any effect in your case to be honest.


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## Something Fishy

sciencefiction said:


> This med is for ectoparasites. External parasites don't cause vertical swimming or buoyancy issues.  The common symptoms are flashing, scraping, etc..and most ectoparasites are visible to the naked eye, e.g. flukes and whitespot. I do not think Seachem Paraguard would have any effect in your case to be honest.



Thanks mate ok.

TDS for tap water is 35-40
EC is 86-87 um/cm

Tank is 115
EC - 225 um/cm



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## alto

alto said:


> In the last year or so, I have seen shipments of Rummy’s, Cardinals, Neons arrive with what I suspect is some strain(s) of Columnaris (this is a tricky pathogen as the same strain in the same batch of fish, which are then separated to different environments, may display significantly different disease progressions)





sciencefiction said:


> I highly doubt this has anything to do with columnaris.



An interesting read 

*Columnaris disease in fish: a review with emphasis on bacterium-host interactions*

Annelies Maria DeclercqEmail author,
Freddy Haesebrouck,
Wim Van den Broeck,
Peter Bossier and
Annemie Decostere
Veterinary Research. 2013 44:27

https://veterinaryresearch.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1297-9716-44-27

This review article is hosted on several sites, some of which include full access


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## Something Fishy

Tests for usual params. Kh is the only one I’m missing

Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 5ppm







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## sciencefiction

alto said:


> An interesting read
> 
> *Columnaris disease in fish: a review with emphasis on bacterium-host interactions*
> 
> Annelies Maria DeclercqEmail author,
> Freddy Haesebrouck,
> Wim Van den Broeck,
> Peter Bossier and
> Annemie Decostere
> Veterinary Research. 2013 44:27
> 
> https://veterinaryresearch.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1297-9716-44-27
> 
> This review article is hosted on several sites, some of which include full access



What leads you to believe its columnaris? Can you elaborate on your logic?

I've personally read about the disease a lot, starting several years ago. So my opinion is based on knowledge and also personal experience.


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## sciencefiction

Something Fishy said:


> Thanks mate ok.
> 
> TDS for tap water is 35-40
> EC is 86-87 um/cm
> 
> Tank is 115
> EC - 225 um/cm
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Looking at that, you've got really soft water and I suspect zero KH is your issue mate, not a disease. Get a KH test.


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## Something Fishy

alto said:


> An interesting read
> 
> *Columnaris disease in fish: a review with emphasis on bacterium-host interactions*
> 
> Annelies Maria DeclercqEmail author,
> Freddy Haesebrouck,
> Wim Van den Broeck,
> Peter Bossier and
> Annemie Decostere
> Veterinary Research. 2013 44:27
> 
> https://veterinaryresearch.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1297-9716-44-27
> 
> This review article is hosted on several sites, some of which include full access



That is a good read alto. I can relate to some of those factors too. Super weird though and I think finding the right medicine will be the trick as SF said earlier.


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## Something Fishy

sciencefiction said:


> Looking at that, you've got really soft water and I suspect zero KH is your issue mate, not a disease. Get a KH test.



Will order one now mate.

How would that create the symptoms described though in only some fish? I’ve been running this other tank on this water for over 3 years and that’s had next to no problems :/






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## sciencefiction

Something Fishy said:


> How would that create the symptoms described though in only some fish? I’ve been running this other tank on this water for over 3 years and that’s had next to no problems :/



The difference in bioload. KH is used up in nitrification and in your better stocked tank it dips between water changes. That's my guess. The affected tank gets too acidic. Test both tanks when you get a KH test and you'll know the difference.


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## sciencefiction

You can also add a bit of soda bicarbonate to the affected tank as a test run to stabilize the KH and see how that goes.


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## Something Fishy

sciencefiction said:


> The difference in bioload. KH is used up in nitrification and in your better stocked tank it dips between water changes. That's my guess. The affected tank gets too acidic. Test both tanks when you get a KH test and you'll know the difference.



Interesting. And co2 and a sump I guess could both further add to that? Lots of bio media in there.


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## Something Fishy

sciencefiction said:


> You can also add a bit of soda bicarbonate to the affected tank as a test run to stabilize the KH and see how that goes.



Ok interesting.

Just done a water change and added active carbon in for a few days so will wait to avoid too many changes at once.

Still confused though as the tanks been running for months on this water and the deaths are a fairly recent occurrence.

Wouldn’t a Ph test show if it’s too acidic too?


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## sciencefiction

Yes, the pH will go down too when the KH is zero.



Something Fishy said:


> Still confused though as the tanks been running for months on this water and the deaths are a fairly recent occurrence.



It is not something that would occur daily but it may have been happening on and off without your knowledge and existing tank inhabitants could adapt to an extent although it would weaken their immune system long term.  New fish added to very acidic water may never adapt. 

What is the full list of inhabitants, how old are they now or how long have you had them for? 
A few months is a very short term in terms of fish health. The only way you'd know if your water is ok if those fish you got a few months back are still alive a few years later. Fish are tough for the most part but chronic bad conditions will take its toll.


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## sciencefiction

Something Fishy said:


> Thanks mate ok.
> 
> TDS for tap water is 35-40
> EC is 86-87 um/cm
> 
> Tank is 115
> EC - 225 um/cm
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Also, another thing to note is that if you just tested your tank, it is after the series of water changes so I suspect your TDS had gone way higher prior to all this happening, and prior to the many the water changes. Soft water, possibly very poor on buffering capacity, gone acidic due to heavier nitrification(heavier bioload) with TDS much higher than your tap water. This was my initial guess several pages ago as the crashing pH follows this same path and symptoms are consistent with what I have observed myself as well.

What is the TDS in your betta tank I wonder?

Also, a rhetoric question, so no need to answer but seeing that you've been registered for a while, what is your oldest fish in general? Have you had to replace fish inhabitants often, etc...That'll answer your water quality question. It is probably not something you've done, it's just the way it goes with water poor on buffering capacity which is not enriched artificially to make it stable.


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## Something Fishy

sciencefiction said:


> Yes, the pH will go down too when the KH is zero.
> 
> 
> 
> It is not something that would occur daily but it may have been happening on and off without your knowledge and existing tank inhabitants could adapt to an extent although it would weaken their immune system long term.  New fish added to very acidic water may never adapt.
> 
> What is the full list of inhabitants, how old are they now or how long have you had them for?
> A few months is a very short term in terms of fish health. The only way you'd know if your water is ok if those fish you got a few months back are still alive a few years later. Fish are tough for the most part but chronic bad conditions will take its toll.



Yeah the only thing I’ve noticed is that bar like one Otto a while back ( which I put down to Pets at Home) all the other loses have been Tetras.

I had 14 Rummy Nose and over the past three months gradually I’m down to 4 now.  I had 26 neon Tetras as of last week and this week I’ve lost about 14 of those in tern.

The rest of the habitants are 6 Amano Shrimp, 5 Ottos, 2 Cory Habrosus (grown quit big now) and a small Sting Ray Pleco.  Fish are super coloured up and active as they always have been, but tetras from time to time just kinda linger or stay around in one place which I always have found odd. Early on when I got the tank for weeks they would swim back and fourth in big schools.

I don’t feel the Bioload is extreme and I feed little bits at a time. I water change once a week though about 90%.

I wonder if the ferts are affecting the parameters or Kh which could apply some link to that. Could be nothing.

I feel like my plants will start kicking off soon as the water is now so clear from the carbon that it looks invisible lol! I’ll keep it like it for a few days and gradually add ferts again (from the other bottles just Incase.)

Not sure on the co2 if you think acid is a problem as it might be a stressor. The way a Tetra has kinda gone off in sequence makes it almost routine like they are all catching something one by one.


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## sciencefiction

The CO2 has no effect on KH, neither do plant fertilisers. 

The random deaths and skittish behaviour is consistent with what I'd expect from a very soft water tank. Basically, your water is way too soft to stay stable between water changes. Look into how to get some KH reading/buffering into it. I think there's a thread here somewhere on that specific topic as well. I'll try to find it.


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## Something Fishy

sciencefiction said:


> Also, another thing to note is that if you just tested your tank, it is after the series of water changes so I suspect your TDS had gone way higher prior to all this happening, and prior to the many the water changes. Soft water, possibly very poor on buffering capacity, gone acidic due to heavier nitrification(heavier bioload) with TDS much higher than your tap water. This was my initial guess several pages ago as the crashing pH follows this same path and symptoms are consistent with what I have observed myself as well.
> 
> What is the TDS in your betta tank I wonder?
> 
> Also, a rhetoric question, so no need to answer but seeing that you've been registered for a while, what is your oldest fish in general? Have you had to replace fish inhabitants often, etc...That'll answer your water quality question. It is probably not something you've done, it's just the way it goes with water poor on buffering capacity which is not enriched artificially to make it stable.



It should be fairly consistent mate as I’ve been doing the same water change routine for ages.

TDS is Betta tank was 140 or so. But that was changed today also. Longest fish is probably the Harlequin Raspbora in the nano which is over 18months now. I did lose the other two of his mates though. Similarly with the danios, one survived but the other two died. Now you say it I have had a fair few loses in there too.

Pretty crazy that people keep Neon Tetras in some pretty awful tanks with barely any awareness even if nitrates, and I’ve had this trouble with such an established grown in planted tank.  Sometimes with mysteries like this I swear it was easier to keep Marines haha I certainly hardly ever lost any fish, but I guess to be fair we add more to marine RO water making it pretty constant for all.

I have about 100 cherry shrimp in the nano tank after they bred so much lol.


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## Something Fishy

sciencefiction said:


> The CO2 has no effect on KH, neither do plant fertilisers.
> 
> The random deaths and skittish behaviour is consistent with what I'd expect from a very soft water tank. Basically, your water is way too soft to stay stable between water changes. Look into how to get some KH reading/buffering into it. I think there's a thread here somewhere on that specific topic as well. I'll try to find it.



Sounds good thanks mate you’ve been a great help.

I’ll get some readings up ASAP once the test kits arrive.

I suppose doing such large water changes would make sense of what you say. 40% more often probably makes sense, I just followed George Farmer’s methods. But he also tends to have small amounts of fish, different location, etc.

I still think what you’re saying makes perfect sense, but the way they die so soon and the fact 3/4 went in one day, and the gill thing, I’m still thinking that there might be another problem.

The Kh / GH however is still a hugely valid point regardless, I need to check that.


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## sciencefiction

Something Fishy said:


> I suppose doing such large water changes would make sense of what you say. 40% more often probably makes sense



Yes, try doing 40% water changes more often rather than 90% ones. This may help in the current situation but you need to also monitor your TDS and not let it accumulate too much either, meaning increase frequency of water changes. Smaller water changes have smaller effect on accumulation removal. For example two 50% water changes are not as good as one 90% when it comes to dilution of things.

You can add buffering via soda bicarbonate to the tank. It will help some but needs monitoring to see how often and how much you need to add. I'd aim at a KH of 2-3 between water changes. This will prevent swings and fish stress and if the water is buffered, you can increase the water change percentage done at a time.


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## Something Fishy

sciencefiction said:


> Yes, try doing 40% water changes more often rather than 90% ones. This may help in the current situation but you need to also monitor your TDS and not let it accumulate too much either, meaning increase frequency of water changes. Smaller water changes have smaller effect on accumulation removal. For example two 50% water changes are not as good as one 90% when it comes to dilution of things.
> 
> You can add buffering via soda bicarbonate to the tank. It will help some but needs monitoring to see how often and how much you need to add. I'd aim at a KH of 2-3 between water changes. This will prevent swings and fish stress and if the water is buffered, you can increase the water change percentage done at a time.



Once a week too long you think? Should do even more frequently? Less is bound to help as you say but I could buffer. Amazonia not help with that I guess really.

Will keep and eye on KH with test kit. What should TDS be ideally after half a week / a week?

Odd thing still is that the neons didn’t experience a water change as when I got them last week they were settling for this week. The tank had already been water changed the day before so I left it. It wasn’t like a sudden change shocked them as they didn’t have any.

Odd too that the other fish species aren’t really phased. Shrimp would be pretty sensitive too right?




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## sciencefiction

I think that unless you tested your water fairly regularly, you do not know exactly what and when was happening to the water and when.

There is no ideal TDS value. In terms of TDS I think of minimal accumulation between water changes when tap water TDS is taken as base reference. In your case you are adding fertilizers so I'd expect a much higher difference between tap and tank to be normal but you should not have a constantly increasing TDS. You should settle on some value based on how much you dose and how much your plants utilize from the amount you dose.

I did not suggest your water changes are the issue. It is the lack of buffering capacity of your water and the potential swings in chemistry, which maybe happening after or between water changes, hard to know unless you start monitoring your water very closely to figure out what's happening.


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## dw1305

Hi all,





sciencefiction said:


> It is the lack of buffering capacity of your water and the potential swings in chemistry, which maybe happening after or between water changes, hard to know unless you start monitoring your water very closely to figure out what's happening.





sciencefiction said:


> KH is used up in nitrification





sciencefiction said:


> also add a bit of soda bicarbonate to the affected tank


I'm not sure that is going to help, it will raise dKH, but I don't think that is @Something Fishy's problem and it will add sodium (Na+) ions, that are going to adversely effect plant growth.

We also know that nitrification is much less dKH dependent than was thought because most of the nitrification in aquariums is done by Archaea, and they are much less pH and carbonate restricted then the bacteria that were thought to oxidise ammonia.

If the OP does want to add some dKH they could use potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3) or just add a bit of <"oyster shell chick grit" or cuttlebone">.

The final reason would be that the fish that have been lost are fish that live in water with very low TDS values, which naturally vary in pH. You aren't getting big changes in water chemistry, you are getting changes in pH, precisely because there aren't many solutes in the water.  





alto said:


> More interesting is the gills, which appear very red and open (swollen or flared, not easy to discern in video) - note this symptom may also appear just prior to death as fish is struggling for oxygen, but this fish has notably red gill tissue. Fins are not clamped - which they generally are with (skin) parasites such ich and velvet


That suggests that it is a CO2 issue for me.

cheers Darrel


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## alto

dw1305 said:


> That suggests that it is a CO2 issue for me.


Except his CO2 addition is very low - I suspect not even half of what I’m adding to my 60P

Recently I managed to turn my CO2 up when I meant to adjust it down, came back to fish “hanging” at the surface ... but no extended gills, no deep red color - just nice slow even (sedated ) deep breathing 
Quick CO2 reduction through increased surface movement and water change, and all fish back to seemingly normal  within the hour 
No losses in following weeks 
Definitely none of the behaviour shown in OP’s video


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## Something Fishy

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,I'm not sure that is going to help, it will raise dKH, but I don't think that is @Something Fishy's problem and it will add sodium (Na+) ions, that are going to adversely effect plant growth.
> 
> We also know that nitrification is much less dKH dependent than was thought because most of the nitrification in aquariums is done by Archaea, and they are much less pH and carbonate restricted then the bacteria that were thought to oxidise ammonia.
> 
> If the OP does want to add some dKH they could use potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3) or just add a bit of <"oyster shell chick grit" or cuttlebone">.
> 
> The final reason would be that the fish that have been lost are fish that live in water with very low TDS values, which naturally vary in pH. You aren't getting big changes in water chemistry, you are getting changes in pH, precisely because there aren't many solutes in the water.  That suggests that it is a CO2 issue for me.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Cheers Darrel

Co2 I turned off for a few days and still saw the fish showing those symptoms and the fact they seem to be almost going in succession. That’s the bit that’s puzzling me so much unless it’s just the weaker ones that go. The fact it is almost one a day is just bizarre.

Would you not agree with that assumption from @sciencefiction about the disease type? I will try and do one thing at a time but I’m struggling to accept given the pattern that something as unsettling as KH would throw them off like this, in particular when I didn’t perform any water changes since putting the neons in.

Pretty confused about it but I guess after a few days of running the carbon I can start again.

No reason I should change fertilizer then either really? Like I said I don’t want to knock Lush Max unduely, so I’d only do that if it was an anomaly.


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## Something Fishy

All fish are kinda hovering again today in the water column. Not sure what’s going on, as suddenly they seem a bit off again.

I am now missing a Rummy Nose too after them all looking coloured up and fine yesterday, now I can only count 3 

Gh and KH test kit on it’s way.


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## Something Fishy

The fact the Rummy Nose looked fine and is now dead too makes me more confused.

Params are fine, no CO2 now since Thursday, and no ferts since Friday. So I can pretty much rule those two factors straight out, as the Rummy Nose were all swimming and eating fine as of yesterday.

Now they are lingering and hovering around in the tank which suggests some form of stress. I am just trying to work out what that stress is.

If it’s Kh or Gh and not a disease as potentially suspected, is there a quick way to fix that and then observe if that’s done anything? I.e what to look out for and what would change?


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## sciencefiction

dw1305 said:


> We also know that nitrification is much less dKH dependent than was thought because most of the nitrification in aquariums is done by Archaea, and they are much less pH and carbonate restricted then the bacteria that were thought to oxidise ammonia.



Appreciate your thoughts Darrel. However, it is very easy to test what I saying at home  by cycling fishlessly with ammonia. Due to the addition of higher amounts of ammonia the KH goes down quite rapidly, even in the space of just 2-3 weeks if water changes are not done to replenish the buffering.Of course, I have no way of knowing what nitrifying organisms are predominant in my tanks, bacteria or archaea.

I have reproduced the same on several different occasions: fishless cycling, not changing tank water for a long period, by overfeeding consistently for a period. I have hard water so it takes longer for my KH to go down than if one has soft water.


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## X3NiTH

I've been having a really good think about this so here's my tuppence.

An effect that could be happening in the tank that has already been semi alluded is you are running Marine coral sand next to AS, this isn't necessarily a bad thing but the TDS mismatch on water change day may be acting against you. The way I'm seeing it is that the sand will only buffer the water if the pH goes below neutral but the AS will buffer it all the time until it reaches an equilibrium state with the water TDS, you add fertilisers changing this relation so the AS will absorb some and form a new equilibrium. The problem comes at water change when you add significantly lower TDS water to the tank, the AS will want to keep equilibrium so it starts releasing whatever it has stored and will do so over time, the other problem is that the Tap water for water change will also be buffered artificially to above neutral (beyond what it will naturally be for the KH level) to keep it dissolving the copper in the distribution pipes, so when added to the tank it won't cause the coral sand to start buffering.

Trace metal concentration will slowly rise in the water if the majority of cations stored by the AS come from the added ferts.

If your water was harder at water change then this would be less of a problem. You are going to need that KH test kit to find out.

If it were me I would be taking a trip to Pets at Home to pick up one of their 12L Aquatown tanks for £15 (it comes with a nano pump and some substrate, bin the substrate use the pump with some filter substrate from another tank so it's pre cycled) and use it as a quarantine tank, put the rummys and neons in it and observe, I'd also add a pinch of Sodium Bicarbonate (no plants in the quarantine tank so sodium isn't an issue) to increase the buffering capacity of the water slightly to discount low KH affecting the fish. If it's a pathogen (they may harbour themselves as natural flora and a stress response makes it grow beyond the fish immune capacity to cope) they may keep popping of one by one, you can then treat the water column with the appropriate meds which should be more effective in a bare tank.

Whatever it is in the tank that's affecting these fish it appears that it is acting like a neurotoxin (from experience rummys I had showed these symptoms if water change water TDS is significantly lower than the tank TDS, mine lawn darted themselves headfirst into clumps of hair grass and jammed themselves in, I had to rescue them, but it was obvious at the time what the cause for the behaviour was). When it comes to neurotoxins certain types of dinoflagellates (as mentioned before as a possible vector) will do this especially Marine types (hyper destructive in a marine tank and a complete nightmare to eradicate, they kill all and can survive high doses of H₂O₂ that kills everything else in the tank, it's the last survivor). Is the coral sand you are using fresh or has it been repurposed from a marine setup (just thought I'd better ask).

As to why only neons and rummys are having trouble, one is very weak genetically and the other is a skittish canary.

Hopefully you get to the bottom of this before you lose the lot.


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## Something Fishy

X3NiTH said:


> I've been having a really good think about this so here's my tuppence.
> 
> An effect that could be happening in the tank that has already been semi alluded is you are running Marine coral sand next to AS, this isn't necessarily a bad thing but the TDS mismatch on water change day may be acting against you. The way I'm seeing it is that the sand will only buffer the water if the pH goes below neutral but the AS will buffer it all the time until it reaches an equilibrium state with the water TDS, you add fertilisers changing this relation so the AS will absorb some and form a new equilibrium. The problem comes at water change when you add significantly lower TDS water to the tank, the AS will want to keep equilibrium so it starts releasing whatever it has stored and will do so over time, the other problem is that the Tap water for water change will also be buffered artificially to above neutral (beyond what it will naturally be for the KH level) to keep it dissolving the copper in the distribution pipes, so when added to the tank it won't cause the coral sand to start buffering.
> 
> Trace metal concentration will slowly rise in the water if the majority of cations stored by the AS come from the added ferts.
> 
> If your water was harder at water change then this would be less of a problem. You are going to need that KH test kit to find out.
> 
> If it were me I would be taking a trip to Pets at Home to pick up one of their 12L Aquatown tanks for £15 (it comes with a nano pump and some substrate, bin the substrate use the pump with some filter substrate from another tank so it's pre cycled) and use it as a quarantine tank, put the rummys and neons in it and observe, I'd also add a pinch of Sodium Bicarbonate (no plants in the quarantine tank so sodium isn't an issue) to increase the buffering capacity of the water slightly to discount low KH affecting the fish. If it's a pathogen (they may harbour themselves as natural flora and a stress response makes it grow beyond the fish immune capacity to cope) they may keep popping of one by one, you can then treat the water column with the appropriate meds which should be more effective in a bare tank.
> 
> Whatever it is in the tank that's affecting these fish it appears that it is acting like a neurotoxin (from experience rummys I had showed these symptoms if water change water TDS is significantly lower than the tank TDS, mine lawn darted themselves headfirst into clumps of hair grass and jammed themselves in, I had to rescue them, but it was obvious at the time what the cause for the behaviour was). When it comes to neurotoxins certain types of dinoflagellates (as mentioned before as a possible vector) will do this especially Marine types (hyper destructive in a marine tank and a complete nightmare to eradicate, they kill all and can survive high doses of H₂O₂ that kills everything else in the tank, it's the last survivor). Is the coral sand you are using fresh or has it been repurposed from a marine setup (just thought I'd better ask).
> 
> As to why only neons and rummys are having trouble, one is very weak genetically and the other is a skittish canary.
> 
> Hopefully you get to the bottom of this before you lose the lot.



Haha it does make sense that they are like that to be honest. I just think back to how many unknowledgeable folk keep them with no issues, but I guess planted tanks do have waaaay more complications added don’t they.

I have a few tubs for water changes I could use one of those? Water volume is much higher than 15l though? I have two heaters and a big pump I could use.

Sadly I cracked my other spare tank so it’s now been used for the sump baffles ha. 

Yeah just so odd that the fish arn’t looking stressed either, I’ve observed them stressed and they did colour and are anti social. In general they are not like this - coloured up and active u til they are gone, with the exception of the ones I filmed and saw before they died.  Even making me doubt the plants and substrate and considering just replanting the lot! 

Coral sand was brand new yeah. I wash it in very weak diluted thin bleach every now and again to get rid of algae spores, then rinse and let it air dry and rinse a few times and overdose dechlorinator and let it air dry again. Bit of a faff but I have time so let it dry properly. Just saying that as an FYI as I know that’s not an issue here, but useful what you said about it possibly buffering.

Are you thinking to fill the quarantine tank with current tank water?

Thanks




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## Something Fishy

This is the tank behaviour today.  Definitely a neon looking discoloured and separating from the group

https://streamable.com/08w9v


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## Something Fishy

alto said:


> Except his CO2 addition is very low - I suspect not even half of what I’m adding to my 60P
> 
> Recently I managed to turn my CO2 up when I meant to adjust it down, came back to fish “hanging” at the surface ... but no extended gills, no deep red color - just nice slow even (sedated ) deep breathing
> Quick CO2 reduction through increased surface movement and water change, and all fish back to seemingly normal  within the hour
> No losses in following weeks
> Definitely none of the behaviour shown in OP’s video



I’ve had problems with CO2 overdose too when a lid I used on another tank slid down and covered half the tank. I came back to the same and did the same, also avoiding loses from that scenario.

It really doesn’t seem CO2 related as the fish today are behaving just as before and I’ve stopped it for days now.


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## Something Fishy

Ok so I found the Rummy Nose, he jumped out the tank...


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## sciencefiction

It sounds more and more like something to do with your water.  Perhaps the mix of all things X3NiTH was on about.

I'd probably follow his advice and take those fish out of that tank. Put in a plastic bin with cycled filter. I'd probably use fresh water considering that the fish are reacting to the water they are in.  Or at least take a few fish for a test run, if not all. 

It would be interesting to see the KH test results once you get them.


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## sciencefiction

sciencefiction said:


> I'd probably use fresh water considering that the fish are reacting to the water they are in



And I'd add a bit of soda bicarbonate to raise the KH in the test tank.


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## Something Fishy

sciencefiction said:


> And I'd add a bit of soda bicarbonate to raise the KH in the test tank.



Will try this tomorrow mate thanks. Tried to scoring something up but couldn’t find anything just yet. I’ve had fish jump out of my other tank too but usually from flow as it was small.

I did up the flow on my return and that may have made the Rummy swim up and fly out the top, the tank is also quite full. Hard as flow is important but I wonder if high flow makes the tetras less active and more stressed. They have places to hide with less flow but the seem to like just being still around the middle.


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





sciencefiction said:


> And I'd add a bit of soda bicarbonate to raise the KH in the test tank.


The tank has coral sand in it, so I don't think it can be lack of carbonate hardness. It certainly isn't going to do any harm adding dKH, although I would prefer potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3). 





Something Fishy said:


> Co2 I turned off for a few days and still saw the fish showing those symptoms and the fact they seem to be almost going in succession.


Not CO2 then, the fish look a bit pale, and appear to be shimmying, which isn't a disease, as such, but a sign of stress.

I've never seen it, but <"Neon Tetra Disease"> might be a possibility? as the other fish look healthy.





sciencefiction said:


> However, it is very easy to test what I saying at home by cycling fishlessly with ammonia. Due to the addition of higher amounts of ammonia the KH goes down quite rapidly


Nitrification definitely reduces carbonate hardness, and if you add a large ammonia loading it will reduce pH. It used to be really common when water changes weren't used, filtration was inadequate and our yellow tinged water developed "old tank syndrome", but you shouldn't ever get this when the tank is running with water changes. 





sciencefiction said:


> It sounds more and more like something to do with your water.


Do you have an alternative water source? Rain-water might be an option.

cheers Darrel


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## Something Fishy

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, The tank has coral sand in it, so I don't think it can be lack of carbonate hardness. It certainly isn't going to do any harm adding dKH, although I would prefer potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3). Not CO2 then, the fish look a bit pale, and appear to be shimmying, which isn't a disease, as such, but a sign of stress.
> 
> I've never seen it, but <"Neon Tetra Disease"> might be a possibility? as the other fish look healthy.Nitrification definitely reduces carbonate hardness, and if you add a large ammonia loading it will reduce pH. It used to be really common when water changes weren't used, filtration was inadequate and our yellow tinged water developed "old tank syndrome", but you shouldn't ever get this when the tank is running with water changes. Do you have an alternative water source? Rain-water might be an option.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Thanks Darrel.

Yeah I do have rainwater outside? I could just buffer the water too if that was what the issue seemed to be. I understood that Neons like soft water anyway? Which is bizarre to me.

Yeah I saw neon tetra disease too and thought of that. Does that affect a Rummy Nose though? Haha. If not maybe it’s a tetra only one that’s linked. 

Yes other fish are active and eating and growing to be honest. Amanos (when they stay in the bloody tank - they like to dive into my sump sock and climb out to their impending doom) are also seemingly healthy when in the tank.

Neons last week just like the Rummys were super coloured up and healthy looking and eating just fine. They are still eating today just fine, but the one in yesterday’s video that went pale off on his own I cannot find. Again he seemed like it was his turn...

I’ve since got some GH and KH readings anyway!

Tap water
KH - 2 drops - 35.8ppm
GH - 2 drops - 35.8ppm

Nano tank - 22l - running an Aquaone external
KH - 2 drops - 35.8ppm
GH - 6 drops - 107.4ppm

TMC 600 80l with 30l of water in sump
KH - 1 drop - 17.9ppm
GH - 6 drops also - 107.4ppm




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## sciencefiction

Something Fishy said:


> TMC 600 80l with 30l of water in sump
> KH - 1 drop - 17.9ppm
> GH - 6 drops also - 107.4ppm



What was the water change schedule like leading to this test after the death events started? 
I still suspect that your tank's KH went down to zero at some stage.


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## Something Fishy

sciencefiction said:


> What was the water change schedule like leading to this test after the death events started?
> I still suspect that your tank's KH went down to zero at some stage.



I did the change on Saturday I mentioned mate.

Other than that I’ve been doing 1 a week roughly 90%.

The tank is making the water softer for some reason too, yet my nano is the same. Maybe the sump with all the nitrification?


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## Something Fishy

I tried not to go crazy and keep changing the water too often. I also added that activate carbon the other day so maybe that also lowered the KH?


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## Something Fishy

I’ve just been reading up and apparently tannins in driftwood also lower KH. I am using a pretty large amount of bogwood in the tank. I wonder if that’s another thing adding to the adverse KH?


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## sciencefiction

I'd personally monitor and not let it drop from that 1 point. At the same time you don't want your TDS going out of control because of the reduced efficiency of water changes. You do have some solid difference between the chemistry of the tank and tap and to be honest, the coral isn't helping much bar to increase the GH. Then you've got the soil adsorbing it, the driftwood, the very soft water, things are swinging back and forth...no good for those fish.

Yes, driftwood can lower the KH further. If your tank is reading 1 now, it has surely dropped systematically over the course of the last few months without your knowledge. It is inevitable at that level unless you've kept an eye on it.


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## dw1305

Hi all,





Something Fishy said:


> I understood that Neons like soft water anyway?


They do, they come from water that naturally has no carbonate hardness at all.





Something Fishy said:


> I’ve just been reading up and apparently tannins in driftwood also lower KH.


I'm pretty sure it isn't the tannins or lack of dKH.  If it was low carbonate hardness it would effect the shrimps, and other fish, long before it effected the Tetras.

I don't see any issue with adding some more dKH, potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3) is cheap to buy and there isn't really a down-side to using it. If things improve that is likely to be the answer, if they don't it is something else.

Personally I'd try changing a smaller volume of water in the tanks, using the rain-water, and see what happens.

cheers Darrel


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## sciencefiction

dw1305 said:


> If it was low carbonate hardness it would effect the shrimps,



It is interesting that you say that but one of my mishaps with a zero KH the shrimp were not affected. In fact none died or showed any stress unlike the fish. Do you have any explanation why would the shrimp be more sensitive to that scenario?


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## sciencefiction

My point all along is that when that KH drops to zero, the pH dives down way below fish tolerance levels. If you have a situation of significant drop in pH, it does affect fish adversely, whether in tanks or in nature. Natural water ways have buffering capacity via several means but they are not immune too.

See for example the reason for the deaths in Anglesea River:

https://www.epa.vic.gov.au/about-us...river-fish-deaths-likely-due-to-natural-event

_"Environment Protection Authority Victoria (EPA) has received test results indicating that the fish death incident in the Anglesea River estuary this week was likely due to natural causes."_

_"The water sample test results are consistent with initial testing indicating that the incident was likely due to rainfall runoff from acid-containing soils in the upper catchment of the Anglesea River"_

And some further study on the same issue:
_
http://www.ccmaknowledgebase.vic.go...fecting_the_ecology_of_the_Anglesea_River.pdf_

_"A common impact of lowered pH on fish, macroinvertebrates and seagrass are physiological changes. For instance, damage to the outer epithelial layers of skin, gills or cuticle, mucus membranes and other external respiration organs can often occur. Such damaging effects can lead to increased susceptibility to disease and infection from pathogens and subsequent weakened immunity, which may cause reduced fitness and ultimately increased risk of mortality. In addition, if algal blooms occur when biota is stressed from damaged respiratory tissues, they are at an even greater risk of mortality. Reproduction is also likely to be affected when conditions change, through either a reduction in the number of viable gametes that are produced and resultant lowered fertility, or through adverse effects on the vulnerable early life stages (such as reduced hatch rates, increased rates of deformity and lower larval survival). In addition to changes in pH, exposure to elevated heavy metal concentrations can also cause toxic effects in biota. For organisms that have exposed gills filaments such as fish and some invertebrates, they are likely to be the most sensitive to changes in pH and are most likely to be negatively affected."_


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## Something Fishy

It is pretty strange. Even that it’s less than the tap water itself. Something is clearly lowering it.

Still like Darrel said it’s pretty much exactly what the Neons should love if it’s never over 35 due to tap water going in at that and then dropping to softer conditions the Neons would be in an ideal environment right?  That’s not a huge swing in params and once a week.

I could use rain water yeah - would I need to treat it and ensure there was no disease in it? 

Even when the tanks been left for over a week and would be at the most ‘stable’ the fish still seem quit dormant at times, there’s no obvious pattern.  Yet in the last week pre Thursday they all behaved as expected. I can get it completely if something is always stressing them but the fact it seems to just be odd intervals, and tetras which are the most suited to soft water of all the fish in the tank.


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## Something Fishy

How would the KH drop to 0 as well? Is it worth me checking it again then in a few days without doing any W/Cs?

Annoying that you can’t use less than 1 drop on the indicator though? That’s the minimum test amount isn’t it.


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## sciencefiction

Something Fishy said:


> How would the KH drop to 0 as well? Is it worth me checking it again then in a few days without doing any W/Cs?



Nitrification.

Yes, I'd check in a few days again.


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## sciencefiction

Something Fishy said:


> what the Neons should love if it’s never over 35 due to tap water going in at that and then dropping to softer conditions the Neons would be in an ideal environment right?



Not really. First in nature those soft waters are still buffered via other means. Second those neons were probably bred and raised in very different conditions than their wild counterparts. Similarly to trying to keep domestic and wild angels in a pH of 4 for example. The domestics will perish.


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## Something Fishy

sciencefiction said:


> Not really. First in nature those soft waters are still buffered via other means. Second those neons were probably bred and raised in very different conditions than their wild counterparts. Similarly to trying to keep domestic and wild angels in a pH of 4 for example. The domestics will perish.



Yeah fair point. It’s all in breeding isn’t it and not knowing where they came from I suppose.


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## dw1305

Hi all,





Something Fishy said:


> I could use rain water yeah - would I need to treat it and ensure there was no disease in it?


I've used rain-water for over 40 years without mishap, my personal opinion is that it is safer than tap water.

I have some carbonate buffering in my rain-water, because I live in a limestone area, which allows me to keep _Daphnia_ in the water butts and I use these as a "canary".

I like a risk management approach to fish keeping, where you look at severity and likelihood as your risk factors. If I thought rain-water was a risk I wouldn't use it. This is also why I'm never going down the added CO2 route.





sciencefiction said:


> My point all along is that when that KH drops to zero, the pH dives down way below fish tolerance levels.


The quoted reference isn't really relevant to this situation. Because there are few solutes in @Something Fishy's water, the pH will fluctuate up and down with every small change in the acid base ratio. I use rain-water with a lower TDS in the tanks and it can easily go from pH6 to pH8 over a couple of hours after the lights have come on as the CO2:dissolved oxygen ratio changes.

It is where you have a rapid fall in pH, due to large changes in water chemistry, you get fish death etc.

You see this a lot where you have hard rock mining and an <"over-burden containing iron pyrites">. You have a double whammy of sulphuric acid production, from the oxidisation of the pyrites, and the solubilisation of iron, aluminium and heavy metals by the low pH.

You can also get this just via increased acid rainfall and/or coniferisation of a catchment. Years ago (1983 I think) I did some work at the <"Llyn Brianne project"> in Central Wales, when the water was extremely "clean", but the whole catchment was pretty much sterile due to acidification.

cheers Darrel


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## Something Fishy

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,The quoted reference isn't really relevant to this situation. Because there are few solutes in @Something Fishy's water, the pH will fluctuate up and down with every small change in the acid base ratio. I use rain-water with a lower TDS in the tanks and it can easily go from pH6 to pH8 over a couple of hours after the lights have come on as the CO2:dissolved oxygen ratio changes.
> 
> It is where you have a rapid fall in pH, due to large changes in water chemistry, you get fish death etc.
> 
> You see this a lot where you have hard rock mining and an <"over-burden containing iron pyrites">. You have a double whammy of sulphuric acid production, from the oxidisation of the pyrites, and the solubilisation of iron, aluminium and heavy metals by the low pH.
> 
> You can also get this just via increased acid rainfall and/or coniferisation of a catchment. Years ago (1983 I think) I did some work at the <"Llyn Brianne project"> in Central Wales, when the water was extremely "clean", but the whole catchment was pretty much sterile due to acidification.
> 
> cheers Darrel



So try buffering my water more then? What if the rain water is soft too Darrel - would still need buffering surely?

Should I buy buffer or is using bicarbonate pretty much the same?

Amanos are shedding too in the water column I noticed.


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## X3NiTH

Pretty sure the Amazonia is sucking the KH out the water (and the ferts) and every time you perform a 90% water change it will eat the KH and spit out something else to replace it (the least strongly bound element first). If the coral sand is giving out KH the AS will also eat that but appears to be doing that in preference to absorbing Ca which is increasing the hardness of the water by 4 points above what tap is providing, the magnesium in the ferts will be adding to this also.

I used JBL shrimp soil in a tank that was remineralised with Salty Shrimp Bee mineral GH+ (provides zero KH) in RO/DI. Initially it buffered the tank water to pH6.5 but within the week the pH quickly dive bombed below 4, I even posted here about it, I came to the conclusion that it's not the best idea to use an active substrate with water that has next to no KH if you don't add something to buffer it out. I got past that freak out and I'm now using that same soil and I'm remineralising to KH8 GH8 and its given me zero issues with buffering.

I had amazing success running a tank with injected CO₂ and zero added KH with RO/DI remineralised with Salty Shrimp to 170ish TDS (my tap has a TDS of 35 but that will be filled with things to make it safe for consumption and protective of metal distribution pipe works, so strip it completely), the substrate I used was Fluval Shrimp and Plant Soil (an active substrate), all went swimmingly for a long while until the day I overdosed nearly a whole bottle of Micro because I forgot  to turn of the dosing pump and left it running for a few hours at 1ml/minute. I did notice and performed water changes (only the tank and not the whole system), it was too late though and I wasn't to know how the substrate was going to act over the next few days, the meltdown was apocalyptic. When I tested the water the KH had gone from zero to 14, all of it had come out the substrate (probably replaced by the micro which killed the plants with feet in soil). 

Active substrates are exactly that 'Active' and not passive, some will be more aggressive in action than others, if you give it something it likes to adsorb then it will do exactly that, if it is saturated and you give it something it really likes to hold onto it will spit something else out to adsorb it, in my case above it was all the KH I never added (there would have been KH in trace amounts but the substrate took it all).


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## dw1305

Hi all,





Something Fishy said:


> using bicarbonate pretty much the same


Potassium bicarbonate is as suitable as the buffers companies sell, and a lot cheaper. 

If you did want an off the shelf buffer then "Seachem Equilibrium" would do.

Your rain-water will be pretty near RO at the moment, in the summer the conductivity will go up a bit.

cheers Darrel


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## Something Fishy

X3NiTH said:


> Pretty sure the Amazonia is sucking the KH out the water (and the ferts) and every time you perform a 90% water change it will eat the KH and spit out something else to replace it (the least strongly bound element first). If the coral sand is giving out KH the AS will also eat that but appears to be doing that in preference to absorbing Ca which is increasing the hardness of the water by 4 points above what tap is providing, the magnesium in the ferts will be adding to this also.
> 
> I used JBL shrimp soil in a tank that was remineralised with Salty Shrimp Bee mineral GH+ (provides zero KH) in RO/DI. Initially it buffered the tank water to pH6.5 but within the week the pH quickly dive bombed below 4, I even posted here about it, I came to the conclusion that it's not the best idea to use an active substrate with water that has next to no KH if you don't add something to buffer it out. I got past that freak out and I'm now using that same soil and I'm remineralising to KH8 GH8 and its given me zero issues with buffering.
> 
> I had amazing success running a tank with injected CO₂ and zero added KH with RO/DI remineralised with Salty Shrimp to 170ish TDS (my tap has a TDS of 35 but that will be filled with things to make it safe for consumption and protective of metal distribution pipe works, so strip it completely), the substrate I used was Fluval Shrimp and Plant Soil (an active substrate), all went swimmingly for a long while until the day I overdosed nearly a whole bottle of Micro because I forgot  to turn of the dosing pump and left it running for a few hours at 1ml/minute. I did notice and performed water changes (only the tank and not the whole system), it was too late though and I wasn't to know how the substrate was going to act over the next few days, the meltdown was apocalyptic. When I tested the water the KH had gone from zero to 14, all of it had come out the substrate (probably replaced by the micro which killed the plants with feet in soil).
> 
> Active substrates are exactly that 'Active' and not passive, some will be more aggressive in action than others, if you give it something it likes to adsorb then it will do exactly that, if it is saturated and you give it something it really likes to hold onto it will spit something else out to adsorb it, in my case above it was all the KH I never added (there would have been KH in trace amounts but the substrate took it all).



This does make a hell of a lot of sense and thanks for sharing dude.

You guys have all been ace in chipping in with this thread so I thank you all profusely and hope it can help others too.

I’ll check KH in a few days again and repost here but it sounds like I need to start buffering my water going in. Amazonia I’ve read similar things about and grouped with my large changes, bogwood quantity and high nitrification I can see how the KH could be so bad.

I am still at a loss with how random things are and drop offs etc just occur, but such is the mysteries of fish keeping sometimes. If the KH is at least ruled out then we can move on to other things!

I guess the nano tank has more soil to water ratio too and it’s smaller and pretty damn well grown in too, so that would help?

Is Salty Shrimp worthy the money mate?


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## Something Fishy

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,Potassium bicarbonate is as suitable as the buffers companies sell, and a lot cheaper.
> 
> If you did want an off the shelf buffer then "Seachem Equilibrium" would do.
> 
> Your rain-water will be pretty near RO at the moment, in the summer the conductivity will go up a bit.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Great cheers.

I guess my tap water is also pretty near RO in terms of the GH and KH values - them also being so low too?

What you’re saying is both would need buffering but rain water could be more stable?


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## X3NiTH

I would be buffering with Potassium Bicarbonate at least to 1g/25L giving you a KH of 1.12 and 15ppm of Potassium, it will give the substrate something to chew on until it saturates.


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## dw1305

Hi all,





Something Fishy said:


> What you’re saying is both would need buffering but rain water could be more stable?


Not more stable, but much less likely to contain chemicals like chloramine etc.





X3NiTH said:


> I would be buffering with Potassium Bicarbonate at least to 1g/25L giving you a KH of 1.12 and 15ppm of Potassium, it will give the substrate something to chew on until it saturates.


Sounds good advice. A  kilo of KHCO3 is about £6.50 <"via Ebay">, so it is a pretty cheap option.

All ions are the same in solution it doesn't matter what compound they came from (or how much it cost), every HCO3- is the same as every other HCO3- ion, every K+ ion is the same as every other K+ ion etc.

cheers Darrel


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## X3NiTH

Something Fishy said:


> Is Salty Shrimp worth the money mate?



No, not in comparison to bags of food grade Magnesium Chloride and Calcium Chloride. Salty Shrimp is more convenient but not as exacting as weighing out the elements separately as its all mixed together in the tub so at some point the ratios of Ca:Mg may swing about as the mixture separates itself out in the tub, not something to worry about as its targeted for shrimp keeping which is more about having hardness with no KH in the water than the exact ratios of Ca:Mg for plants.

Straight after the disaster I had I started using Seachems Alkili for KH at water change alongside Salty Shrimp, the Alkli got swapped out eventually to Potassium Bicarbonate. My GH and KH is now mainly sourced from carbonates of Magnesium and Calcium but I do still add Potassium Bicarbonate, (I can make my water however I like to and right now I'm choosing to run at GH8 KH8 with a TDS of 120 and have a weeks dose of Macro in that TDS figure also).


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## sparkyweasel

Something Fishy said:


> Annoying that you can’t use less than 1 drop on the indicator though? That’s the minimum test amount isn’t it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Is this a test kit where you count the drops of dye added to a sample until the colour changes?
What you can do, is put the one drop into twice as much water, equivalent to half a drop in the normal sample. Even four times the water for the equivalent of a quarter drop. Depending on the test kit, it may gey difficult to see the colour change, as the dye is more diluted. Although, if your KH is under 1⁰, I don't think you need to get any more precise than that.


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## X3NiTH

dw1305 said:


> Not more stable, but much less likely to contain chemicals like chloramine etc.



I think there's a high degree of certainty that Chloraminated water comes out the taps on a regular basis in the Devon region, there are lots of other remedial actions to make it pipe safe and potable according to this DEFRA report on South West water from 2012, it's very detailed (I found this earlier and gave it a really good skim read, I'm just glad I found it again to link to it), there's a few follow up reports out there also (I also super skim read the 2016 report). You may be able to pinpoint issues in your water supply quality down to specicfics for your exact location (where things have breached guidelines there is a section at the end that states remedial action to be carried out, some of which I saw was pending until 2015). It's worth giving it a read to see if anything stands out for your location, find out what local reservoir your water is sourced and compare to the reports.


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## Something Fishy

sparkyweasel said:


> Is this a test kit where you count the drops of dye added to a sample until the colour changes?
> What you can do, is put the one drop into twice as much water, equivalent to half a drop in the normal sample. Even four times the water for the equivalent of a quarter drop. Depending on the test kit, it may gey difficult to see the colour change, as the dye is more diluted. Although, if your KH is under 1⁰, I don't think you need to get any more precise than that.



Good idea sparkyweasel.

It was more to prove the KH was dropping further that’s all as it’s 1 drop already. Yes the API one does this.


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## GreenNeedle

The water report for Something Fishy's area is very soft but quite puzzling (to me) on Ph.

28 parts per million (so his substrate or hardscape seems to be adding some on top of that) Clark 2º, French 3º, German 2º so it is very very soft water.  The Ph though on the report fluctuates from 7.1ph to 9.4ph with an average of 8.42ph.  Seems like a high ph to me for such a low KH.


My water hardness is very hard here in Lincoln (Jurassic Limestone area) 282ppm, 19.6 Clark, 28.2 French, 16 German and Ph is very steady at 7.62 - 8 with an average of 7.77 however this is artificially lowered (probably by Co2) because it comes in normally about 8.4ph after 24 hours degassing.

Am I missing something?  Why is the Ph average in his soft water higher than mine in a hard area?

This is Something Fishy's water report.  Not very detailed but........
https://www.southwestwater.co.uk/siteassets/water-quality/2018-wq-reports/zp9-wq-report-2018.pdf


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## X3NiTH

The values are likely measured at point of use (out a tap somewhere, either at the beginning of the distribution network or somewhere else along it) and the average pH measured is higher because of the remedial action on the water to make it pipe safe, remedial action is not stated but looking at the report it appears to be phosphate based alkali buffering as the concentration of phosphorous is 70x that of the Iron content (the supplemental information in the table states this to be the case). The sodium content has not been measured so there is no way to know if they also use sodium hydroxide based buffering to further up the pH. From the Defra report where there is mention of excessive pH (in the 9's) it has been found to be localised and due to leachate from concrete pipes in the distribution network, flushing was the remedial action in that case.


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## Kalum

Might or might not help but my water is soft and similar in hardness and kh but differs in pH, I don't have knowledge to get into the science behind it but might help as a comparison for those of you that do? If not then ignore

Clarke deg- 3.22
French deg - 4.58
German deg - 2.57
Calcium - 14.76
Magnesium - 2.19
CaCo3 - 45.83
Sodium - 5.1 (min), 5.61 (mean), 6.0 (max)
pH - 6.9 (min), 7.37 (mean), 7.8 (max)

My measured by drop test kH is usually between 1 and 2


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## Something Fishy

KH of my main tank is up today to 35ppm now.

I’ve ordered some Potassium Bicarbonate just in case I decide to use it to buffer the KH of my tap or rain water.

I won’t got beyond 1g/25l either.

It surely can’t hurt either way to ensure the water I am using it at least more stable.


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## dw1305

Hi all,


SuperColey1 said:


> The water report for Something Fishy's area is very soft but quite puzzling (to me) on Ph.
> 
> 28 parts per million (so his substrate or hardscape seems to be adding some on top of that) Clark 2º, French 3º, German 2º so it is very very soft water.  The Ph though on the report fluctuates from 7.1ph to 9.4ph with an average of 8.42ph.  Seems like a high ph to me for such a low PH..........Am I missing something?  Why is the Ph average in his soft water higher than mine in a hard area?
> 
> This is Something Fishy's water report.  Not very detailed but........
> https://www.southwestwater.co.uk/siteassets/water-quality/2018-wq-reports/zp9-wq-report-2018.pdf


It is likely to be sodium hydroxide (Na OH) addition, it is added to raise pH and stop copper (Cu), zinc (Zn) and lead (Pb) from pipes going into solution.


X3NiTH said:


> The values are likely measured at point of use (out a tap somewhere, either at the beginning of the distribution network or somewhere else along it) and the average pH measured is higher because of the remedial action on the water to make it pipe safe, remedial action is not stated but looking at the report it appears to be phosphate based alkali buffering as the concentration of phosphorous is 70x that of the Iron content (the supplemental information in the table states this to be the case


The phosphate addition is also to precipitate out any heavy metals.

The technical term is Phosphate Induced Metal Stabilisation <"PIMS"> and the aim is the <“control of plumbosolvency”>.

Cheers Darrel


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## Something Fishy

Going up in KH @sciencefiction - 3 drops today.

So around 52ppm now 


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## Something Fishy

Would switching to RO help control things if I buffered it?


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## X3NiTH

It removes a lot of the variability, adding DI (deionising pod) will completely remove the variability all the way to zero TDS. My water is pretty much identical to yours in conductivity so it's been through similar remediation to make it pipe safe. I use a TMC unit and the RO part takes 35+ish TDS water and drops it to 1TDS, bypassing this TDS through the DI pod drops it to zero (I bypass the DI for a few minutes at the beginning to let the TDS to drop down to 1 because I don't want to wear the resin out unnecessarily).

Once you have water with nothing in it then you can tailor it to exactly how you want it and how you choose to do this is entirely up to you, you can do this conveniently via a commercial product or you can do it yourself with different compounds of elements. If you go the DIY route it can save you quite a penny, there are many different recipes out there to chose from, most use sulphate or chloride based minerals for GH and bicarbonate for KH (much the same as commercial mixes but you get to control the numbers and eliminate sodium as a cheap filler). I am doing it slightly differently with a little more complexity (high accuracy and repeatability, minimal variability) by using carbonates for GH and KH, I'm still adding sulphates and chlorides but only in very small amounts, I get rich low TDS water this way, GH8 KH8 + 1week EI Macro dose up front = TDS 120, (Salty Shrimp to GH6 KH0 = TDS >150 'no ferts').


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## sciencefiction

Something Fishy said:


> Going up in KH @sciencefiction - 3 drops today.
> 
> So around 52ppm now
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Is it going up naturally?

How are the fish doing now?


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## Something Fishy

sciencefiction said:


> Is it going up naturally?
> 
> How are the fish doing now?



It is going up yeah pretty oddly.

Tempted to rescale the lot so I know where I’m at. 

Yeah naturally just the strongest left I think. No more since I last posted and all still eating. The more I read up on neon tetra disease the more I can see in common with them. I swear there was something going around them.


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## sciencefiction

Something Fishy said:


> Yeah naturally just the strongest left I think. No more since I last posted and all still eating. The more I read up on neon tetra disease the more I can see in common with them. I swear there was something going around them.



New fish that were previously stressed, weak immune system, unstable tank, it can take a toll on fish. It is all about the water.... I'd expect that when you get your water in order, things will settle. The strongest may/should survive but may or may not last their usual life span. New fish, however, should be fine.



Something Fishy said:


> It is going up yeah pretty oddly.



I think @X3NiTH has it spot on about what's happening in your tank.


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## Something Fishy

sciencefiction said:


> New fish that were previously stressed, weak immune system, unstable tank, it can take a toll on fish. It is all about the water.... I'd expect that when you get your water in order, things will settle. The strongest may/should survive but may or may not last their usual life span. New fish, however, should be fine.
> 
> 
> 
> I think @X3NiTH has it spot on about what's happening in your tank.



Yeah his post makes perfect sense and I don’t doubt my water is making things unstable.

But there’s definitely a disparity in the last few weeks in how the fish have been and certainly the symptoms from NTD I can see, especially the wasting body’s. Very odd.

I don’t think I’ll be happy until I rescape it now sadly. Annoys me as I liked this bespoke layout but I can’t love it any more. The sump over complicates things too but I may use another method of overflow.

RO is a good shout I think but I’m concerned about the water bill and water wastage from it?


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## GreenNeedle

Something Fishy said:


> Yeah his post makes perfect sense and I don’t doubt my water is making things unstable.
> 
> But there’s definitely a disparity in the last few weeks in how the fish have been and certainly the symptoms from NTD I can see, especially the wasting body’s. Very odd.
> 
> I don’t think I’ll be happy until I rescape it now sadly. Annoys me as I liked this bespoke layout but I can’t love it any more. The sump over complicates things too but I may use another method of overflow.
> 
> RO is a good shout I think but I’m concerned about the water bill and water wastage from it?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



So use the rainwater you said you had instead, throw in the usual water conditioner that deal with metal in case there are any metal pins or hooks in your roof setup and the remineralise that.  Like DW said above, rain water is what he uses.  It is what I used to use to cut 3 parts rain/1 part tap because of my hard tap water when I had Crystal reds.


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## Something Fishy

SuperColey1 said:


> So use the rainwater you said you had instead, throw in the usual water conditioner that deal with metal in case there are any metal pins or hooks in your roof setup and the remineralise that.  Like DW said above, rain water is what he uses.  It is what I used to use to cut 3 parts rain/1 part tap because of my hard tap water when I had Crystal reds.



Which fine but when it doesn’t rain in the summer  could be an issue.

I’d need to test it though right and check for KH stability and then filter and ensure it’s not contaminated or full of germs if it’s been sat around for a while now?


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## GreenNeedle

Something Fishy said:


> Which fine but when it doesn’t rain in the summer  could be an issue.
> 
> I’d need to test it though right and check for KH stability and then filter and ensure it’s not contaminated or full of germs if it’s been sat around for a while now?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



DW has several water butts all coming off his roof.  I was using 2 when I had Crystal reds.  Did nothing other than put the relevant amount of tap conditioner in it and then mixed 3:1 with some tap to reduce my heavy water down.  Didn't do any filtering etc.  Just used it.


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