# Stems and the fine co2 line



## AverageWhiteBloke (19 Feb 2021)

Wondering how people deal with "easy" stem plants when they start ditching lower leaves? My understanding of this is it's a combination of lighting and co2, maybe to a certain extent flow as well. Do people just cut the healthy tops of and re-plant accepting this will happen and just keep the plant more compact?
In a high tech tank the norm would be to make sure you were getting good flow and co2 down to substrate level, the highish lighting would also be a given unless other plants were shading. I suppose soil substrates would also come into play as organics were getting broken down in the substrate releasing co2 from the bottom up but unfortunately as mine wasn't a planned tank more of an ad-hoc scenario I'm using cat litter. It does have some cec capacity and I don't tend to hoover it, I also like to dose the substrate to keep it as nutrient rich as possible.

The question is, my light is lowish although my crypts, beuce and ferns show good growth, I even have a sword that sends a new leaf up every week (albeit a bit glassy and transparent) My floaters are off the chart if I may say so myself so I can pretty much rule nutrients out the equation. Regarding co2, it is what it is I suppose, at best I could hit equilibrium so I aim best surface agitation I can with a filter that is too small for this tank. If I was to try and address getting more light down to the substrate surely that is only going to increase the demands of all the other plants and leave even less co2 in general?

Other than that I don't think there's much else I can adjust, would be interested to hear people's opinions and how they maximise co2 for stems in low techs. Like the post says, it's a fine line when dealing with stems.


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## Iain Sutherland (19 Feb 2021)

To a certain extent, and some stems more than others, it happens in low tech. However it is more about flow and the nutrients/co2 it carries than light. Adding more light will likely add issues... unless it drops all leaves aside the top few then focus on getting flow down to lower levels first.👍


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## Tim Harrison (19 Feb 2021)

I think it's pretty much a fact of life with stems in a low-energy tank. The lower part pretty much always gets tatty looking after a while. I always hide mine behind hardscape or other plants and replant the tops. Most Ludwigia spp. seem to do well though, for instance, without too much loss lower down.


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## shangman (19 Feb 2021)

I have stems in a low tech, I pull them all out, cut off the good bits and replant every 2 - 3 months. I also regularly cut and replant the trimmings every 2 weeks when they get too high. I have quite high light (for a no co2 tank) so I can keep some nice red plants, generously fertilise, and have stems that don't mind low tech too much (some don't mind it, some hate no co2 and remain sad tiny plants until I rip them out and replace them). I've accepted they won't look as nice as co2 ones. I plant grasses like pygmy chain sword around the base of the stems and good lowco2 stems like ludwigia red mini amongst the stems to make them look thicker and more luscious, which works well and looks quite natural.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (19 Feb 2021)

Iain Sutherland said:


> unless it drops all leaves aside the top few then focus on getting flow down to lower levels first.



Flow may be something I have over looked Iain as I didn't think it would be that important. Maybe I should take another look at this. The mantra I set this tank up with was low energy in all senses of the word in so far as I only run a small hob filter that use 3watts for a bit of water movement. The problem with the hob is that also has a fine line, the water level needs to be exactly inline with the outlet of it to get some lateral flow and good surface movement. The water level slightly too high or too low and the flow just plummets to the bottom, maybe this would be better rather than focusing on surface movement? Another low energy factor is is mine, the focus of this tank was to start enjoying the hobby again after a spell away so the least time I spend working on it and the more time looking at it the better. 



Tim Harrison said:


> I always hide mine behind hardscape or other plants and replant the tops.



I've pretty much did the same thing Tim, in the case of the polysperma I have them at the back so the lower third is hid by some wood. I have something at the fron which is ditching leaves though, don't quote me on it but I think it's like a bacopa compact or something just for a bit of contrast. I was toying with the idea of planting some of S.Repens around the base to hide the leaf drop on the bottom inch but maybe that would just shade more and I loose the stem?


shangman said:


> I have quite high light (for a no co2 tank) so I can keep some nice red plants, generously fertilise,


this is what baffles me, especially when I watch videos like MD's and I see red stem plants thriving under quite high lighting, I feel the soil has a lot to do with it. My biggest regret was not starting with soil but unfortunately this tank was a holding tank for some fish during a move and I never envisaged it being a long term project.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (19 Feb 2021)

Just to say maximising co2 in a low tech is up there with getting good co2 in a high tech. And I thought I was simplifying things but cutting out co2


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## Iain Sutherland (19 Feb 2021)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> The problem with the hob is that also has a fine line, the water level needs to be exactly inline with the outlet of it to get some lateral flow and good surface movement. The water level slightly too high or too low and the flow just plummets to the bottom, maybe this would be better rather than focusing on surface movement?


It is the down side to a hob filter, straight down flow wouldnt be ideal, certainly with my hobs if I dont top up I see negative effects quite quickly.  Keeping lateral flow would be better.  Again though unless you are losing unreasonable amounts of lower leaves dont chase perfection with stems in low tech.


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## shangman (19 Feb 2021)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> this is what baffles me, especially when I watch videos like MD's and I see red stem plants thriving under quite high lighting, I feel the soil has a lot to do with it. My biggest regret was not starting with soil but unfortunately this tank was a holding tank for some fish during a move and I never envisaged it being a long term project.


Ahh yes, I do have soil (garden soil not aqua) under the sand in my tank, and most of the red plants I grow are strong root feeders (Tiger lotus, echinodorus, ludwigia ar). You could try root tabs maybe?


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## AverageWhiteBloke (19 Feb 2021)

Iain Sutherland said:


> Again though unless you are losing unreasonable amounts of lower leaves dont chase perfection with stems in low tech.


It is comforting to know that the far more experienced people in here see this as something you have to put up with having a low tech set up. I guess I'll just see if arranging the plants could mask it better. I recently watched a video (by a biologist I believe" said the two options were either create a lot of surface to get equilibrium or don't to try and hold the co2 from fish and bacteria respiration in the column. Not the cheapest option but I bought myself 8 Chili rasboras to try and up the co2. any excuse 

I actually have all the equipment here to go high tech but to me the lighting is a massive step up and I'm not going down the co2 route on this tank even though I could. The filters I have are also far too powerful for a 50ltr tank. One bit of tech I did deploy was I had a chihiros doctor sitting about so I put that in. The logic was with the new fish and getting a bit heavily stocked I could benefit from the extra co2 and upping the oxygen would increase breakdown of organics resulting in a bit more co2 but without causing excess surface disturbance. I'm not going to lie but it does seem to have had good results although that could just be the water looking clearer with the oxygen increase. The downside to this though is goes against the low energy principle I was aiming for so I'm tempted to take it back out.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (19 Feb 2021)

shangman said:


> You could try root tabs maybe?


Yes mate I put osmocote pellets in the substrate every month and liquid dose in between.


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