# Can you keep Chocolate Gourami with Shrimps?



## andyh

Has anybody kept Chocolate Gourami with cherry shrimp (neocaridina) etc?

Will the CG eat them?


Andy


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## a1Matt

I think that it will be OK. Don't know for sure but I am going to risk it....  I have some 'samurai' chocolate gourami on order with Living Waters and am going to be placing them in with: CRS, yellow shrimp, brigittae, pygmy cories, and otos.

This page seems to think it is OK (on quite a few of their other pages they warn about other fish species eating shrimps):

http://www.seriouslyfish.com/profile.ph ... ides&id=84


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## andyh

Matt

yeah I had seen that page, also TGM has them in their 1800l with shrimps. By there us plenty if places to hide.
Anybody else on here had any experience?


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## andyh

Matt

Ok after a fair amount of reading around i have taken the plunge!   

3 x Chocolate Gourami in with about 40 CRS and 15 Cherry Red Shrimp.

Will let you know how i get on! If they do start to go after the shrimp i will be moving them to my other tank!  

Andy


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## a1Matt

I feel a vicarious thrill at you getting the gouramis!
Will wait avidly to hear how you get on   

Do you still have your boraras brigittae?

For mine I have been dropping my ph, kh, gh to make conditions closer to their natural environment.  Have also been feeding them live food for the first time (Daphnia).  Am noticing some with eggs now    I suspect it was a combo of both changes that did it. Thought you might like to know!


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## andyh

a1Matt said:
			
		

> I feel a vicarious thrill at you getting the gouramis!
> Will wait avidly to hear how you get on



Matt

I will try to keep you updated on the situation!  

So here they are:














So far so good, no dramas with the shrimps at all. Will be keeping a close eye on them for the next week or so.   They are beautiful fish. Check the HD video on my Dragon Beach journal.



			
				a1Matt said:
			
		

> Do you still have your boraras brigittae?
> 
> For mine I have been dropping my ph, kh, gh to make conditions closer to their natural environment.  Have also been feeding them live food for the first time (Daphnia).  Am noticing some with eggs now    I suspect it was a combo of both changes that did it. Thought you might like to know!



Yes i still have them they are in my other scape, So how have you been changing the water conditions? Funnily enough i bought some frozen daphnia for the Choc.G today so i will give that a try with mine.

Andy


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## dw1305

Hi all,
Nice tank and lovely fish, only suggestion would be maybe add some floating plants (Limnobium or Pistia) or an emergent plant with lots of fine roots? they also apparently jump.

I stored 5 for a few months (for a friend until he could pick them up), and they really liked the "Apistogramma tank" with no fertiliser or CO2,  biofilm, rainwater, lots of leaf litter and live food, tannin stained water, lots of moss and java fern and a covering of floating plants. They were really active and constantly interacted. I did 10% water change every day, and kept the conductivity below 100microS. I kept them on their own, although at various times spare Apistogramma adults, Epiplatys etc were in with them for a few days. I tried to persuade the owner to let me keep them, but he had them back and they all succumbed over the next year (no apparent reason all looked fine, then found a dead one in the tank). I did see them once in their new home (he is a well known Hypancistrus breeder, tank had R.O. water, but much less cover), and the only noticeable difference was that were much paler brown (they had been "Bournville" coloured) and more static than they had been with me. 

cheers Darrel


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## andyh

dw1305 said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> Nice tank and lovely fish, only suggestion would be maybe add some floating plants (Limnobium or Pistia) or an emergent plant with lots of fine roots? they also apparently jump.
> 
> I stored 5 for a few months (for a friend until he could pick them up), and they really liked the "Apistogramma tank" with no fertiliser or CO2,  biofilm, rainwater, lots of leaf litter and live food, tannin stained water, lots of moss and java fern and a covering of floating plants. They were really active and constantly interacted. I did 10% water change every day, and kept the conductivity below 100microS. I kept them on their own, although at various times spare Apistogramma adults, Epiplatys etc were in with them for a few days. I tried to persuade the owner to let me keep them, but he had them back and they all succumbed over the next year (no apparent reason all looked fine, then found a dead one in the tank). I did see them once in their new home (he is a well known Hypancistrus breeder, tank had R.O. water, but much less cover), and the only noticeable difference was that were much paler brown (they had been "Bournville" coloured) and more static than they had been with me.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Cheers Darrel, 

Some excellent information there!


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## a1Matt

andyh said:
			
		

> Cheers Darrel,
> 
> Some excellent information there!


I second that, thanks   


			
				andyh said:
			
		

> I will try to keep you updated on the situation!


thanks   
I checked out the HD vid, they look great; very active and nice deep colours.


			
				andyh said:
			
		

> So how have you been changing the water conditions?


RO water and peat.

Pop a handful of peat in a pop sock and float it in the tank. The ph drops within a few hours, and when it starts to rise change/add more peat (every couple of days at the moment). 

Also, leave the RO to soak in peat (again, a handful in a pop sock, inside a 25l container) for a couple of days before using it for WC.

Still a long way off of 'blackwater' conditions, but am heading in the right direction.

Bit more info here: http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f= ... 6&p=106707

I also put some beech leaves at the bottom of the tank.  Not sure if that has affected the water parameters though, if it has it is only in a small way).

Also added some floating plants last week and raised the water temp up (was 22 now 26) in preparation for getting chocolates.

I bought another 40 brigittae today, I have 80 now. Damn they look good


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## andyh

Matt

Thanks for your comments as always!

You have been busy, peat in your socks! Sounds interesting, have you not considered using an off the shelf product like
Tetra Aqua Blackwater Extract as an example? Will have a read of that thread. 
We used to use bogwood to help bring down the ph and add tannins to the water when i used to keep catfish.

You have 80 Brigittae! I am jealous that must look immense! Need a pic/video dude! Come on ! Show me! I have 15 in my 35l and they look cool. Where did you get yours?

Andy


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## Steve Smith

andyh said:
			
		

> You have 80 Brigittae! I am jealous that must look immense! Need a pic/video dude! Come on ! Show me! I have 15 in my 35l and they look cool. Where did you get yours?



Agreed, I want to see them Matt!   And maybe your socks too


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## a1Matt

I will be starting a journal soon, so will put pics in there   

My 80 probably looks as effective as your 15!
Reason I say that is it is 80 in 160l, so that is near enough the same fish:water ratio as you   

I got them from Wholesale Tropicals in Bethnal Green.  I had to wait a few weeks for them to get this many in in one go, but it was well worth the wait   

back to the gouramies    ... 

I could have gone for a blackwater extract, but like to save money wherever possible.
The pop socks cost Â£1 a pack (I got some funny looks in Primark buying them   ), and the 'Shamrock irish moss peat' was Â£7 for 100litre. 

At some point I may set up a water butt filled with Oak leaves in the garden and use rainwater (cheers for the advice MisterDee).  A job for the springtime.

I know the gouramies like live food, so I am about to set up a nano as a live food culture, daphnia to start with.


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## dw1305

Hi all,
Sounds really good. For the tannin staining I use a cotton pillow case 1/2 filled with sphagnum peat and left in the water butt, this lasts about 6 months and you adjust the degree of tannin tint to what you require by cutting it with R.O. The great advantage of this is that "Irish or Finnish Moss peat" costs about Â£7 for a 100l bale (as suggested in the post) and works out much cheaper than black water extract or Eheims torf etc. I never tried "black water extract" but all the posts on Apistogramma forums about said that it didn't have the same positive effect as peat anyway. 
I got the peat and pillow case method from Mark "Microman" Breeze.  

A "pop" sock or tights should work fine. Beech leaves don't tend to have much effect on pH, but they are a lovely colour and last well, so they are a good choice, Oak leaves or "Indian Almond" leaves (Terminalia cattapa) reduce the pH. TA Aquaculture sell these and also Alder cones, which they think are as good as the Terminalia leaves.

<http://www.walmer-nursery.co.uk/photos/main.php?g2_itemId=100>
http://www.ta-aquaculture.co.uk/Leaves.htm

Daphnia culture is a good idea, I keep these and also grindal and microworms, pm me if you want a culture, I've also got some other leaves, alder cones and bits and bobs.

cheers Darrel


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## a1Matt

More useful info   

I had read about alder cones recently (I think from your posts on the apostogramma forums   ).

Are they something that I could collect myself from woodlands?

If so, and you have one or two spare that you do not mind sending me that would be great, once I have seen them I will be confident looking for them in the wild.  I will pm you my address, thanks


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## dw1305

Hi all,
Here they are (with Nanochromis) 



and the cones.





Alder is common along rivers etc. PM received, I've got plenty spare so I'll send some.

cheers Darrel


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## Ed Seeley

Is that a male transvestitus Darrel?


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## dw1305

Hi all,
Ed I think it is, but it isn't my fish,  it was posted on Apistogramma forums, by a Polish? member I think it was Lukaz? I should have an email and he sent me some tank shots and details. Have you kept them? I believe they are a bit of a challenge.
cheers Darrel


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## Ed Seeley

Yeah had them and the male killed the female within a week and then jumped out!  Was in a 2 ft tank though and will try a group of them in a larger tank at some point to give them chance to pair with their choice of partners and get a stronger bond.  I think I remember Clive keeping them in a big tank at one point.

Also kept Congochromis (formerly Nanochromis) sabinae and got them to spawn but then lost them.


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## a1Matt

I saw something interesting in my tank the other day which I've just posted on my journal, but thought I would share here too...

A chocolate gourami approached a juvenile CRS, I expected the CRS to scuttle away, he didn't - he turned to face the gourami.
They were then dead still facing each other about 10cm apart for about a minute.
When I put my nose up to the glass to get a close up I could see that the shrimp had its antenna held straight out in front of it and was waggling them side to side of the gourami.  This successfully halted the gourami, who then retreated (literally swam backwards).

CRS 1 Gourami 0!   

I now recall that the gouramis often look at the shrimp from a similar distance, but never attack them


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## andyh

a1Matt said:
			
		

> I saw something interesting in my tank the other day which I've just posted on my journal, but thought I would share here too...
> 
> A chocolate gourami approached a juvenile CRS, I expected the CRS to scuttle away, he didn't - he turned to face the gourami.
> They were then dead still facing each other about 10cm apart for about a minute.
> When I put my nose up to the glass to get a close up I could see that the shrimp had its antenna held straight out in front of it and was waggling them side to side of the gourami.  This successfully halted the gourami, who then retreated (literally swam backwards).
> 
> CRS 1 Gourami 0!
> 
> I now recall that the gouramis often look at the shrimp from a similar distance, but never attack them



I too can confrim this, i have Choc G's in my shrimp tank and they are inquisative but never eat them.


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## a1Matt

Next time you see it happening Andy get right up close it is fascinating to watch the antenna waving about (   x2)


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## a1Matt

Update.
chocolate gouramies definitely eat dwarf shrimp.

I've seen them devouring an adult CRS with my own eyes. The CRS had just moulted, so I suspect it was easy prey.

I've also noticed that since removing my chocs from the tank (they are in QT) the shrimp population has exploded, so I summise they were eating a lot of shrimplets (blue pearls).

I would still keep them with shrimp, but only if the colonies are established enough to withstand it.


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