# 20g new red cherry setting up help please



## chop81 (5 Jan 2012)

Hi everyone! I know some of you may say its stupid question but really need help. 
I have 20g tank and want to set up for red cherry shrimps. Just bought RO/DI unit because mine tap water is liquid stone with over 8ph. Have normal tank gravel (11L).And my questions what to use to remineralize RO water to get proper GH and KH was thinking about benibachi mineral powder and Bee3 and what about the soil, what to use to buffer ph. I was thinking about benibachi Fulvic Grain but just worry ph will be to low. Is it maybe somethink cheaper avalible? Please dont laugh fromy questions.


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## Viv (5 Jan 2012)

I hate to say it after you've already bought the RO unit but rcs would probably be okay even though your water is hard. Mine are thriving and out of the tap my water is GH 19, pH 8 - 8.2. 

Viv


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## Antoni (5 Jan 2012)

For the RCS you dont need RO water, they are really sturdy ones  
If you want an active substrate, I would recommend getting some Shirakura Red Bee sand, it is wonderful! Been using it for a while and all my shrimps are thriving. If you want you can mix the RO water with tap water, to get desired parameters and to save money from buying GH buffers and so on. Better invest in some minerals and good food, what ever brand you like. I'm personally using Shirakura food and Mironekuton deep sea minerals and I'm happy with both of them.


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## PeteA (5 Jan 2012)

Are you intending to put in different shrimp in time?  If so as mentioned red cherries are one of the least fussy!  If you're going to put in others what are you thinking of?


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## mitchelllawson (5 Jan 2012)

Id go for some "fluval shrimp stratum" just google it and you will find it, its quite expensive but looks good and is good for shrimps.


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## chop81 (5 Jan 2012)

Unfortunetly I had to buy RO unit because of copper pipes. In future want to keep RC together with Red and Black crystal.


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## mitchelllawson (5 Jan 2012)

hang on a minute ill find my shrimp database for you.

Hope it helps -
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=19266


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## si-man (5 Jan 2012)

Most people have copper pipes. I do and use tap water for my crs


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## chop81 (5 Jan 2012)

I dont want to risk and mix ro with tap water. Could you tell me please what should I use to put minerals back to RO and get the proper GH.  will be ok using just RO and Fluval Shrimp Mineral Supplement PLEASE help


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## PeteA (6 Jan 2012)

chop81 said:
			
		

> I dont want to risk and mix ro with tap water. Could you tell me please what should I use to put minerals back to RO and get the proper GH.  will be ok using just RO and Fluval Shrimp Mineral Supplement PLEASE help



If you can tell me if you're planning on putting other shrimp into the tank in future I'll tell you how I'd go about it.  You need to get the correct GH and KH and this varies depending upon what stock you want now and in the future.


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## chop81 (6 Jan 2012)

I was thinking about Red Cherry and Red Crystal later but I think they wont be ok in one tank because Red Crystal need much lower GH, so I think to keep Red and Black Crystal.


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## PeteA (6 Jan 2012)

Red cherry and crystal reds should be fine in the same GH, red cherry are very resilient little things and quite happy at a range of water qualities.  If you've not done already, check out the post Mitchell posted.  The water hardness (BOTH GH and KH) are only part of the puzzle, the TDS level (Total Dissolved Solids) it also important - i.e. the amount of stuff in the water column.

Personally I use TMC Tropic Re-Mineral products to re-mineralise.  I currently use 50% of their tropical and 50% of their discus re-mineral products which gives me just under 9 dGH and just under 4dKH and a TDS of around the 100 mark.  I do have a pressurised CO2 system & dose with fertilisers.

If I weren't running the CO2 system then I'd just use TMC Tropic Re-Mineral Discus which will give roughly 5 dGH and 1 dKH.  With a KH that low you do need to be very concious of pH crashes which is why I wouldn't chance it with adding CO2 in any form.

Also you shouldn't keep different colours of the same type of shrimp together as they'll hybridise...  So Red Crystal and Black Bee (aka Black Crystal) shouldn't be kept together, but Red Cherry and Red Crystal could be.

Hope this makes sense!

pete


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## Dincho (6 Jan 2012)

DO NOT USE fluval substrate, it is completely useless! Get some ebi gold substrate, use the products you mentioned and you will be fine. You have all the minerals needed for your RO water.


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## chop81 (6 Jan 2012)

Thank You for advise. So Option 1 by Petea: TMC Tropic Re-Mineral and is ok, what about some bufor for ph. 
Option 2 by Dinco benibachi. I like option 1 because is much cheaper just worry if TMC Tropic Re-Mineral will be enough.


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## Dincho (6 Jan 2012)

Always try the cheaper option first  But if you already have the products you need then try them first.


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## chop81 (6 Jan 2012)

I havent got this products just ready to order. Problem is I want to try cheaper option but dont want to take a risk my shrimps die.


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## Sentral (6 Jan 2012)

Dincho said:
			
		

> DO NOT USE fluval substrate, it is completely useless! Get some ebi gold substrate, use the products you mentioned and you will be fine.


Why is it useless? It's just a pourus substrate; good for plants and good for shrimps because of its size.


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## Dincho (6 Jan 2012)

Its fine for something simple like cherry shrimp. If you want to keep something like CRS etc then its useless, it does not buffer the ph low enough, it has no effect on kh and only last about 6 months. I have only ever heard horro stories from people that have used it. Save your money!!!!


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## PeteA (6 Jan 2012)

chop81 said:
			
		

> Thank You for advise. So Option 1 by Petea: TMC Tropic Re-Mineral and is ok, what about some bufor for ph.
> Option 2 by Dinco benibachi. I like option 1 because is much cheaper just worry if TMC Tropic Re-Mineral will be enough.



Tropic Re-Mineral (both the regular and discus versions) contains everything you need to re-mineralise RO water including getting the KH level to a specific amount.  I believe (and somebody will correct me if I'm talking tripe) that pH buffer just increase the KH of the water.

If I were doing it, I'd just use it without any extra and see what pH you get because it will be dependent on the amount of CO2 in your water   If it's not right then you should be able to get something that does the necessary to fix it.  Probably cheapest way.

One of the benefits that I see of using RO water is that you have complete control over what is going into your tank.  I've never used any fancy substrate but don't like the idea of having to change my substrate and upsetting the tank every X months just to get the water right.


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## chop81 (6 Jan 2012)

Thanks. So Ill use Tropic re minerall to my RO and shuld be ok. Could you tell me if I need to use any extra things


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## Dincho (7 Jan 2012)

If you are only keeping cherries then that should be all you need. As long as you have a gh reading of around 5, to help with moulting, you will be fine. Cherries are extremely easy to keep.


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## mitchelllawson (7 Jan 2012)

You could use plain tap water if he only wanted to keep cherrys, one of my friends keeps them in a pH of 8.1 GH of 8 and KH oh about 5 and there fine. They breed aswell, but from what i've read he wants to keep Crystal Red Shrimp and they are a lot more picky about parameters especially the higher grade ones.


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## chop81 (7 Jan 2012)

Yes you right, I want to keep Red cherrys first (exacly yellow but thet are the same) and in few months timeplaning to keep them togheter with Red Crystal.


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## Dincho (7 Jan 2012)

If the long term plan is CRS then get yourself a decent active substrate, like Ebi Gold. It will help buffer your water and keep it stable. Cherries can survive in pretty much all conditions so use them to practice on, try and keep your tank parameters what they would be if keeping CRS.

If you use an active substrate with RO and some sort of re-mineralisation then you won't be far off, its a good start anyway. Once you get the shrimp bug, which you will, you can then start looking at a more advanced set up capable of keeping higher grade CRS.


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## mitchelllawson (7 Jan 2012)

Dincho said:
			
		

> like Ebi Gold.



+1 Or akadama


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## Dincho (7 Jan 2012)

Akadama is also good, the colour always put me off though. The shrimp always look brighter against a dark substrate. Its only personal preference though.


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## mitchelllawson (7 Jan 2012)

They do look brighter agains a dark substrate, he could always cap it was an inch of something he likes.


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## chop81 (7 Jan 2012)

Can I set up tank with normal gravel and later add some special one dedicated for Red Crystal with no harm for Cherrys which already live in tank?


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## mitchelllawson (7 Jan 2012)

You might aswell just use no substrate for cherrys even though it does help you dont need it and there wont be much point wasting money on a substrate if your buying another for crystal reds.


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## chop81 (8 Jan 2012)

Ive got black gravel for fish tank already, just wondering if I set up evertthing now and later add just special one for Red Crystal on top of regural gravel it wont harm yellows living there. Thanks for help everyone.


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## mitchelllawson (8 Jan 2012)

That should be fine.


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## Sentral (15 Jan 2012)

Dincho; do you know of any UK stores that supply EBI or Shirakura Red Bee Sand ?



			
				mitchelllawson said:
			
		

> You might aswell just use no substrate for cherrys even though it does help you dont need it and there wont be much point wasting money on a substrate if your buying another for crystal reds.


Saying you 'don't need substrate' is misinformation. Of course you need a substrate, especially for shrimp.


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## mitchelllawson (15 Jan 2012)

I've have no substrate in my cherry tank for about 40 days, buying Akadama soon.


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## Dincho (15 Jan 2012)

I don't no, but try to get ebi gold over red bee sand. After 12 months the red bee sand stops buffering the water, ebi gold should last 18 months but i have never had a bag last less than 24 months. In the long run its much better going for the ebi gold.

This is where i get my ebi gold: http://www.aquamoos.de/product_info.php ... pSoil.html
The problem is it costs about £25 for shipping, i always order about 5 bags at a time to spread the cost. I have heard that www.hobbyshrimp.co.uk will stock it but the site says "coming soon" so i'm not sure how long until its available over here.


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## Sentral (19 Jan 2012)

You only need these shrimp specific substrates if you're using RO water as they'll buffer the PH and give you a good GH. If you're using tap water they'll stop buffering within a few weeks rendering it pointless spending all that money! Akadama is real cheap and inert, so you could control PH by using other methods such as alder cones or cattapa leaves etc if needed.


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## Dincho (19 Jan 2012)

Shrimp substrates can be used with tap water, it is how i started. Using tap water will shorten the lifespan of the substrate, but not as short as you are suggesting. They will last around 12 months with tap water, 2-3 years with RO water (from my experience) This does not include fluval stratum though, the stuff is useless with or without tap water. Akadama is good but the diarrhea colour always put me off! It is good at buffering the water but last no longer than a shrimp substrate, so its best to use whatever you can get cheapest.

Cattapa leaves can lower the ph but only if you use large amounts of them, its not good to rely on them to buffer the water. They are best used for their tannins and medicinal qualities. There are products that can buffer the ph, Soft Water, Fulvic Grain, Humic etc but you can't beat a good substrate. It keeps you ph below 7, kh at 0 and gh at a good level, its expensive but not as expensive as replacing shrimp when they die due to wrong water conditions.


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## basil (19 Jan 2012)

Sentral said:
			
		

> You only need these shrimp specific substrates if you're using RO water as they'll buffer the PH and give you a good GH. If you're using tap water they'll stop buffering within a few weeks rendering it pointless spending all that money! Akadama is real cheap and inert, so you could control PH by using other methods such as alder cones or cattapa leaves etc if needed.



It's a good point and one that i missed the point of completely when i was new to shrimping. I put ADA Amazonia into my tanks purely because i was told to use an active substrate in my shrimp tanks.......at the time i didn't realise quite why I was adding this expensive gravel!!

I think now, as i understand water parameters a little more that i could have probably managed with a bog standard inert gravel i was fortunate enough to have water out of the tap very close to where it needed to be for the shrimp i wanted to keep.

So, my new crs shrimp tanks will be set up using standard gravel and not active substrates.........watch this space!


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## chop81 (19 Jan 2012)

Hi! Thank you all for help! My tank is nearly ready. I used gravel which I had in my previous fish tank and two internal filterd, which were mature already. Add Tmc re mineral and GH11 and KH7, ph 7.5. Just wondering how much water changed should I do to lower it to conditions for Red Crystals. 90litres tank.


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## Dincho (19 Jan 2012)

chop81 said:
			
		

> Hi! Thank you all for help! My tank is nearly ready. I used gravel which I had in my previous fish tank and two internal filterd, which were mature already. Add Tmc re mineral and GH11 and KH7, ph 7.5. Just wondering how much water changed should I do to lower it to conditions for Red Crystals. 90litres tank.



Loads! Your ph needs to be around 6.4-6.6, KH 0 and Gh 4-6. Even if you do large water changes with RO water its unlikely your parameters will stay low enough for CRS, you have nothing in there to buffer the water. You live about 15 miles from me, which means your tap water is shockingly hard! Your best off keeping the setup for cherries.


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## chop81 (19 Jan 2012)

Hi! Yes our water is like liquid rock, but Ive got RO filter but used TMC remineral acording to instruction and my paramets are a bit higher then should. Now Im thinking about fulvic grain from benibachi just not sure how big is this bag. Do I need to do water change before use fulvic grain


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## Dincho (20 Jan 2012)

chop81 said:
			
		

> Hi! Yes our water is like liquid rock, but Ive got RO filter but used TMC remineral acording to instruction and my paramets are a bit higher then should. Now Im thinking about fulvic grain from benibachi just not sure how big is this bag. Do I need to do water change before use fulvic grain



Don't buy anything yet, you might not need to. If your using RO water and your parameters are that high then something in the tank is buffering the water. I suspect the TMC stuff you use but i can't be sure as i have never used it. Have you got any sort of rock in your tank?


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## Dincho (20 Jan 2012)

basil said:
			
		

> Sentral said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The problem with using standard gravel will be your KH. Kh readings need to be 0 or as close to it for the CRS to breed, your going to struggle to keep your KH at 0 and ph stable without using an active substrate.


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## Sentral (20 Jan 2012)

We need UK suppliers for shrimp substrates, it's not economically viable to spend £40 on a small bag getting it hopped over from Germany! 

A lot of the guys over on shrimpnow say that the active substrates lose their life very quickly with tap.


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