# Losing my patience



## oscarlloydjohn (25 Aug 2018)

I'm starting to lose patience with my CO2 setup. It's always had some kind of problem which ends up causing me algae because of insufficient/fluctuating CO2.

I believe my needle valve could be part of the problem. I have already gotten rid of the bubble counter because I thought that could be causing blockage. 

The supply is inconsistent and fluctuates frequently. I got back from a holiday with the bubble rate half of what it should be (tank plenty full still). I readjusted the flow to the proper amount but now it is starting to go up slowly. It was set at 45bpm and has moved up to 60bpm in a few days.

So, Here are my guesses:
-possible diffuser blockage even though it looks totally clean
-solenoid heat causing expansion/contraction of the valve
-small tank magnifying appearance of normal fluctuations (it is also very hard to adjust existing needle valve with any accuracy)
-poor quality needle valve

I've reached my breaking point with regards to adjusting the valve and just want to buy a decent one that works. Options are limited but this Camozzi one seems like a good investment especially since it has a locking nut which will prevent movement.

 https://www.co2supermarket.co.uk/precision-camozzi-flow-controller-customiser-p331.html

Any suggestions?


----------



## Zeus. (25 Aug 2018)

Needle valves can be tricky little buggers, I bent mine so just got some from RS components
Could be a faulty pressure regulator!
If it is faulty it might have a changing working pressure which would change the BPS.
I don't adjust my needle valves when I get close to getting the pH profile close, I fine tune the working pressure which I can with my duel stage reg. Just my initial thoughts.
We all lose are patiance at times


----------



## oscarlloydjohn (25 Aug 2018)

Zeus. said:


> Needle valves can be tricky little buggers, I bent mine so just got some from RS components
> Could be a faulty pressure regulator!
> If it is faulty it might have a changing working pressure which would change the BPS.
> I don't adjust my needle valves when I get close to getting the pH profile close, I fine tune the working pressure which I can with my duel stage reg. Just my initial thoughts.
> We all lose are patiance at times



It's a single stage so unfortunately my needle valve is the only method of adjustment  It is a generic needle valve from CO2supermarket, and it is SO hard to adjust because you hardly need to turn it at all. Would you recommend the RS components valves? Which one do you use?

Cheers


----------



## Zeus. (25 Aug 2018)

The RS needle valves I got work great for me. On city break ATM so can't check which ones I ordered


----------



## alto (25 Aug 2018)

If this system hasn’t worked properly & you purchased it new, surely this is a warranty issue - have you contacted the retailer?

The needle valve is what should allow fine tuning of the system (regardless of single/dual stage regulator)

Regular maintenance (cleaning) of diffuser etc should prevent these affecting flow - any effect should be gradual & steady rather than fluctuating


----------



## oscarlloydjohn (25 Aug 2018)

alto said:


> If this system hasn’t worked properly & you purchased it new, surely this is a warranty issue - have you contacted the retailer?
> 
> The needle valve is what should allow fine tuning of the system (regardless of single/dual stage regulator)
> 
> Regular maintenance (cleaning) of diffuser etc should prevent these affecting flow - any effect should be gradual & steady rather than fluctuating



They have offered some support, but only suggested that the diffuser could be blocked. 

I was under the impression that algae is usually the only substance that blocks diffusers. It's been sat in complete shade so it has no visible algae and looks like new (3 months old). I haven properly cleaned it yet though.

CO2 flow is definitely random and fluctuating. I'm not an expert on this so don't really know where to start with troubleshooting. I've checked the entire thing for leaks and haven't found any so I can only really guess what the problem is. Of course I assume it is the needle valve because it is the only controllable thing. 

One thing to add is that the needle valve is incredibly sensitive and is obviously designed for larger setups as I hardly have to turn it at all if I want to adjust the flow.

Thanks


----------



## rebel (26 Aug 2018)

oscarlloydjohn said:


> One thing to add is that the needle valve is incredibly sensitive and is obviously designed for larger setups as I hardly have to turn it at all if I want to adjust the flow.


Yeah unfortunately most of the needle valves are like that.

My suggestion is to replace the diffuser or consider a reactor in the first instance.

When you troubleshoot, isolate each element and troubleshoot it and exclude it. Move on to the next element that's most likely the problem. Much like solving a problem in a car.


----------



## oscarlloydjohn (26 Aug 2018)

rebel said:


> Yeah unfortunately most of the needle valves are like that.
> 
> My suggestion is to replace the diffuser or consider a reactor in the first instance.
> 
> When you troubleshoot, isolate each element and troubleshoot it and exclude it. Move on to the next element that's most likely the problem. Much like solving a problem in a car.



More likely to be the diffuser then? Do you think it's worth replacing the needle valve as a precaution?


----------



## zozo (26 Aug 2018)

oscarlloydjohn said:


> solenoid heat causing expansion/contraction of the valve



There you could be spot on if the valve is directly mounted the solenoid.. If so i would indeed try this first before going nuts on the budget.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Preci...978056?hash=item4b49385e08:g:9aIAAOSwHtFZyG6~

And place it inline as short as possible to the diffuser..


----------



## oscarlloydjohn (26 Aug 2018)

zozo said:


> There you could be spot on if the valve is directly mounted the solenoid.. If so i would indeed try this first before going nuts on the budget.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Preci...978056?hash=item4b49385e08:g:9aIAAOSwHtFZyG6~
> 
> And place it inline as short as possible to the diffuser..



Lol the valve on the solenoid looks identical to that.

I'd assume that the solenoid heats up the same amount every day, since it is on at the same exact time ect.

If that's the case, surely the valve would fluctuate the same amount every day then? That's definitely not what is happening at the moment. Seems totally random and out of control.

This is so annoying!!!


----------



## Zeus. (26 Aug 2018)

Which diffuser are you using? Always handy to have a spare/spares.
My intank atomiser started getting bigger bubbles so soaked in bleach then descaled it in citric acid good rinse later and WTF even bigger bubbles! It was leaking around one of the plastic ends, so pulled it off bit of gorilla glue pushed it back together in Vice then other end did the same, rinse repeat then it was fine, but I also had a spare intank one I could of used. 
So what I'm trying to say getting another diffuser isn't a bad idea as if the problem persists with that one the licklyhood of it being the diffuser is unlickly esp if it was a different make. Sending the reg/solenoid back under warranty would take time, plus don't think it's the reg/solenoid.


----------



## oscarlloydjohn (26 Aug 2018)

Zeus. said:


> Which diffuser are you using? Always handy to have a spare/spares.
> My intank atomiser started getting bigger bubbles so soaked in bleach then descaled it in citric acid good rinse later and WTF even bigger bubbles! It was leaking around one of the plastic ends, so pulled it off bit of gorilla glue pushed it back together in Vice then other end did the same, rinse repeat then it was fine, but I also had a spare intank one I could of used.
> So what I'm trying to say getting another diffuser isn't a bad idea as if the problem persists with that one the licklyhood of it being the diffuser is unlickly esp if it was a different make. Sending the reg/solenoid back under warranty would take time, plus don't think it's the reg/solenoid.



I have a spare one lying around. I'll try that out and update after. Hopefully that will fix it!

Thanks for the help


----------



## zozo (26 Aug 2018)

It could be inveronmental temperature has its influence too.. As well as on the solenoid as on the valve and the regulator.. On colder days it will be less warm, at colder nights it starts cooler.. This can easily fluctuate with several degrees sometimes up to 10¨c during the day.. When the needle valve expands and retracts during these temp fluctuations you obviously get a fluctuating through flow in co². Since a needle valve is adjustable with maybe les then 0.10 mm.. This could be responsible, since this also works on the regulator you have this in a factor 2.. The closer it all is a build in one comapct (close together) the more it will have infuence.

I lost my little book to find the data of Thermal expansion coefficient for alloy metals and forgot the excact formula.. But it ca be found on internet. This way you can get an idea how much it might expand and retract  during a day..
https://www.amesweb.info/Materials/Linear-Thermal-Expansion-Coefficient-Metals.aspx

As said since we work with tiny adjustments you probable don't need huge temp changes.

It's just a theory.. But obviously to be as precise as possible a constant temperature controlled invironment is pre.

Than placing an inline needle valve as far away as possible from a heatsource can solve the issue.. But than still you have fluctuating invironmental infuence.. Just for the fun of it, get a cheap high/low thermometer and monitor the minimun and maximen differnces during a full day.. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/For-Fish-T...tically-0-37/311813739207?hash=item48998c12c7

https://www.ebay.com/itm/LCD-Indoor...443650?hash=item590e9fcf42:g:Z3sAAOSw8W5afovM


----------



## rebel (27 Aug 2018)

oscarlloydjohn said:


> More likely to be the diffuser then? Do you think it's worth replacing the needle valve as a precaution?


Replace the diffuser first, Try reactor next, Needle valve next.


----------



## ian_m (27 Aug 2018)

How long are the interconnecting CO2 pipes ?

When I first set my CO2 up (from CO2SuperMarket) is just left my 3 metres odd piping in place, preferring not to cut pipe and had all sorts of CO2 stability issues. Got CO2 bubble rate steady and next day was b*gger all or monsterous...if adjusted and it was all over the place, was unable to get a steady repeatable rate.

Cut all the CO2 tubing to the "correct" minimal lengths that was actually necessary and suddenly bubble rate was easily settable to any required rate and came back on next day at exactly the same rate I left it. No trouble at all, that was 6 years ago and still perfectly controllable. Did clean the in-line diffuser a year or two ago, but generally just gives a fine mist of bubbles leading to a green/yellow drop checker at lights on.


----------



## oscarlloydjohn (27 Aug 2018)

ian_m said:


> How long are the interconnecting CO2 pipes ?
> 
> When I first set my CO2 up (from CO2SuperMarket) is just left my 3 metres odd piping in place, preferring not to cut pipe and had all sorts of CO2 stability issues. Got CO2 bubble rate steady and next day was b*gger all or monsterous...if adjusted and it was all over the place, was unable to get a steady repeatable rate.
> 
> Cut all the CO2 tubing to the "correct" minimal lengths that was actually necessary and suddenly bubble rate was easily settable to any required rate and came back on next day at exactly the same rate I left it. No trouble at all, that was 6 years ago and still perfectly controllable. Did clean the in-line diffuser a year or two ago, but generally just gives a fine mist of bubbles leading to a green/yellow drop checker at lights on.



The system has a fair amount of slack because the CO2 setup is beside rather than underneath the tank. I like to keep some slack So I can pull the system out.

Funnily enough I remember reading something before I got the CO2 setup about having the correct amount of tubing. I wonder why it matters though? You'd think the gas would just travel through the pipe without any problems.

I'll cut down on slack when I install the new diffuser and see if that helps too.

Thanks


----------



## ian_m (27 Aug 2018)

oscarlloydjohn said:


> You'd think the gas would just travel through the pipe without any problems.


That's what I thought, but is clearly makes a difference. I suspect the tube pressurises, the diffuser "burps" out lowering the pressure, which then pressurises again leading to a repeating unstable cycle.


----------



## oscarlloydjohn (27 Aug 2018)

ian_m said:


> That's what I thought, but is clearly makes a difference. I suspect the tube pressurises, the diffuser "burps" out lowering the pressure, which then pressurises again leading to a repeating unstable cycle.



Do you think the problems stem from the tubing being too long or does it stem from the fact that the tubing may go below the height of the regulator before going to the tank/is horizontal in some places?


----------



## alto (27 Aug 2018)

If tubing is suitable for CO2 (ie no slow diffusion to outside - CO2 is “corrosive” & will degrade inappropriate plastics etc) the length should not in itself cause such drastic fluctuations 

I run Tropica nano CO2 (multiple tanks scattered about the house & didn’t want multiple 5lb CO2 tanks in every room) which I rate as pretty low tech system (compare to GLA _gorgeous_ CO2 systems) 

If I run a minimum length of the (included) tubing, there’s a “faster” response time from when I open the needle valve to first bubbles through bubble counter/diffuser - but that’s always a bit inconvenient for changing out the bottle,diffuser cleaning etc so instead I usually run about a double (minimum) length of tubing; in one instance I even ran with the maximum tubing length ~2m
Regardless, bubble rate is extremely consistent UNTIL CO2 cyclinder is nearly empty

Note I often have tubing loops dropping 30-60cm below Nano cylinder & then back up over tank edge, then (obviously) back down to substrate level (diffuser) - again this has no measurable effect on bubble rate consistency 

In a more professional setting, a single CO2 tank was locked down at the bench end, typical set up was: regulator - manifold - multiple lines ranging from 0.5m to 10m ... CO2 delivery at each outlet was consistent 
IF there were NO leaks


----------



## oscarlloydjohn (27 Aug 2018)

alto said:


> If tubing is suitable for CO2 (ie no slow diffusion to outside - CO2 is “corrosive” & will degrade inappropriate plastics etc) the length should not in itself cause such drastic fluctuations
> 
> I run Tropica nano CO2 (multiple tanks scattered about the house & didn’t want multiple 5lb CO2 tanks in every room) which I rate as pretty low tech system (compare to GLA _gorgeous_ CO2 systems)
> 
> ...



Tubing is JBL CO2 tubing, so definitely no problem there.

I suppose I will just cut the tubing to an appropriate length and hope that helps. Of course, as there are many variables in the system, there is no way for me to tell if the tubing setup is causing it or not. Once the diffuser is replaced, I'll be able to tell.


----------



## alto (27 Aug 2018)

If you systematically alter one component at a time, you’ll find the culprit

Though I can appreciate the impulse just to sort this NOW

Anytime I have erratic bubble rate, it’s always a leak - slow leaks are not simple to detect, and some may only be apparent when system is under pressure, eg, diffuser blocking, solenoid closed, solenoid not opening fully
(Which is why I’d prefer the retailer to test the system ... but this is much more in CO2Art style)


----------



## oscarlloydjohn (4 Sep 2018)

Seems like changing the diffuser hasn't helped at all  I set it to 80bpm two days ago and now it has climbed up to 120bpm. Lol this is gonna be an algae farm as I have just upgraded to a twinstar light!!

Any suggestions on what to eliminate next @Zeus. @alto @zozo ? The needle valve is probably the next culprit. I have emailed the retailer again to get their input.

Cheers


----------



## mow said (4 Sep 2018)

My needlevalve does the samething. Some days i get 4bps some i get 3bps but never had algae issues. I have zero leaks but i think the needle valves in the cheap single stage co2 regulators are not precise unless you spend 200 quid on a regulator then you wont have BPS going up some days and spme days down.


----------

