# What is the best substrate when on a budget?



## Animal Mother (26 Oct 2009)

I need some suitable substrate for my 4' Osaka 320. I want a planted biotope tank so I need a decent substrate but can't afford AS or anything else in that price range.

Are there any other options which are more affordable and will still be good for a planted setup?

The tank will have CO2 and fertiliser.

The tank is 120x45 so I will need 54l for 10cm of substrate and 27l for 5cm of substrate.

Are any of these suitable? Are there any other options?

http://www.aquatics-online.co.uk/catalogue/freshwater-planted-substrate.asp


----------



## Dave Spencer (26 Oct 2009)

Play sand from Argos, Tesco etc.

dave.


----------



## Jack middleton (26 Oct 2009)

I also suggest you put a thin layer of clay cat litter under the play sand, I'm having great success with this in a high tech tank, I also mixed the substrate in with KNO3 and KH2PO4 to give it a bit of an edge.


----------



## Animal Mother (26 Oct 2009)

Dave Spencer said:
			
		

> Play sand from Argos, Tesco etc.
> 
> dave.



Surely that isn't a suitable planted tank substrate?

I was thinking more along the lines of a cheaper AS equivalent.


----------



## Dave Spencer (26 Oct 2009)

Animal Mother said:
			
		

> Dave Spencer said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Feel free to find a cheaper one.  

Why do you not think it is suitable?

Dave.


----------



## Animal Mother (26 Oct 2009)

Dave Spencer said:
			
		

> Feel free to find a cheaper one.
> 
> Why do you not think it is suitable?
> 
> Dave.



I'm sure it's very cheap.

I thought that for a successful planted aquarium you require a substrate with some sort of nutrients for plants.


----------



## ceg4048 (26 Oct 2009)

Animal Mother said:
			
		

> Dave Spencer said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Neo, The Matrix has you.  



			
				Animal Mother said:
			
		

> I was thinking more along the lines of a cheaper AS equivalent.


If a product even comes close to AS then it won't be cheap. The deeper question here is; Are you interested in growing great plants or are you more concerned simulating some environments substrate? Amazing plants can be grown with nothing more than sand. If you concentrate more on dosing the water column and paying close attention to CO2 as well as flow and distribution the substrate choice becomes moot.

Cheers,


----------



## Animal Mother (26 Oct 2009)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Neo, The Matrix has you.



Please bear with me as I am new to this, hence why I'm asking.   



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> If a product even comes close to AS then it won't be cheap. The deeper question here is; Are you interested in growing great plants or are you more concerned simulating some environments substrate? Amazing plants can be grown with nothing more than sand. If you concentrate more on dosing the water column and paying close attention to CO2 as well as flow and distribution the substrate choice becomes moot.
> 
> Cheers,



I'd like something a bit better than sand, so somewhere between sand and AS in effectiveness and price will suit me.

Are any of these suitable?
http://www.aquatics-online.co.uk/catalogue/freshwater-planted-substrate.asp


----------



## ceg4048 (26 Oct 2009)

Yes all the items listed are suitable, but so is sand. None of those items, however comes even close to Aquasoil. I guess it depends on your budget. If you are new to planted tanks then you need to go to the tutorial section and start with the article entitled EI DOSING USING DRY SALTS

The fact of the matter is that we are dealing with aquatic plants which are capable of feeding directly via the leaves. While it's always a good idea to have a nutritious substrate, it's not strictly required specifically because of the special ability of direct feeding via the foliage. This is the major difference between rooted terrestrial plants and aquatic species. Since foliar uptake of nutrients is much more efficient than root uptake, adding nutrients to the water column greatly enhances growth performance, obviating the dependence on root uptake.

You haven't fully described your tank so it's not clear whether it is a CO2 enriched unit or whether you will use the non-CO2 approach. If you do add CO2 then you need to be aware that CO2 uptake accelerates the demand for nutrients so water column dosing becomes even more important.

Plants will feed from the roots if available, but the problem is that few of the products shown on that weblink have sufficient levels of the most important nutrients - Nitrogen, (N) Phosphorous (P) and Potassium (K). 

This is why the other inmates have suggested sand to you in those previous post, as outrageous as it sounds, because it's super cheap and because you can dose the water column and never miss "suitable" substrate. There are plenty of products out there trying to take your money. If you can achieve you goals without going to the poor house then it's wise to take that route.

If you study the link to the dosing article you'll see image showing what can be accomplished by water column dosing. All the plants in that tank except for the foreground plants were rooted in basically inert gravel.

Hope this clarifies.   

Cheers,


----------



## Animal Mother (26 Oct 2009)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Yes all the items listed are suitable, but so is sand. None of those items, however comes even close to Aquasoil. I guess it depends on your budget. If you are new to planted tanks then you need to go to the tutorial section and start with the article entitled EI DOSING USING DRY SALTS



Thanks.  



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> You haven't fully described your tank so it's not clear whether it is a CO2 enriched unit or whether you will use the non-CO2 approach. If you do add CO2 then you need to be aware that CO2 uptake accelerates the demand for nutrients so water column dosing becomes even more important.



I did, look at my first post.



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Plants will feed from the roots if available, but the problem is that few of the products shown on that weblink have sufficient levels of the most important nutrients - Nitrogen, (N) Phosphorous (P) and Potassium (K).



I'll be feed nutrients (TPN+) to supplement this.   



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> If you study the link to the dosing article you'll see image showing what can be accomplished by water column dosing. All the plants in that tank except for the foreground plants were rooted in basically inert gravel.
> 
> Hope this clarifies.
> 
> Cheers,



My current tank is a basic planted affair just into gravel but with CO2. Some plants do well, others not too well. I wanted to move away from basic substrates because (I thought) that the range of plants you can have and their success is based partially on the substrate.


----------



## George Farmer (26 Oct 2009)

A nutrient-rich substrate does give you more 'room for error' with regards dosing nutrients into the water column.

So you can grow great plants in plain sand, but you'll need to dose regularly.  TPN+ is a good all-in-one liquid fertiliser.  EI can be very effective too, and if you're dosing dry chemicals it is the least expensive.

I can also recommend the Tropica AquaCare Plant Substrate.  1 x 5 litre bag topped with regular 1-3mm gravel is ideal for your size tank and won't cost much at all.  The substrate does not contain much, if any nutrients, but it does have a high CEC that means it takes in nutrients from the water and makes them available to the plant roots.  This, in my experience, is better than plain sand alone.

You can take your pick from any other substrates on the market.  They all perform well, especially if your tank has enough light, good CO2, good circulation, good water column nutrients and good maintenance practice.  These factors in combination are a lot more important than the substrate choice alone.


----------



## a1Matt (26 Oct 2009)

IMHO...

cheapest inert substrate - play sand.
cheapest substrate with the ability to hold nutrients - Akadama.

I grew plants sucessfully in plain gravel for a few years and then recently switched to Akadama.  I am very pleased with it.  See the akadama sticky in this section for more info.


----------



## Animal Mother (26 Oct 2009)

Cheers for the informed reply George, it is very helpful.

Please bear with me.

What is EI?

What is CEC?

The cheapest I've found Tropica AquaCare Plant Substrate in 5kg is around Â£20 (inc. p&P), how would this compare to using something like Eco Complete at Â£20 for 9kg?
Is one better than the other and why?

Thanks.


----------



## JamesM (26 Oct 2009)

A large bag of pea shingle from Wickes is only a couple of quid, and its all you need tbh. Clive's advice is golden, you won't go wrong taking it


----------



## Animal Mother (26 Oct 2009)

JamesM said:
			
		

> A large bag of pea shingle from Wickes is only a couple of quid, and its all you need tbh. Clive's advice is golden, you won't go wrong taking it



I've pea shingle in my exisiting tank, it's a good substrate but not suitable for the look I want to achieve this time, thanks anyway.

Who is Clive?


----------



## Jack middleton (26 Oct 2009)

ceg, otherwise known as clive.

Clay Cat litter is similar to the tropica substrate, High CEC (cation exchange capactiy) the ability to take on nutrients and release them slowly over time.

EI is estimative index.


----------



## ceg4048 (27 Oct 2009)

Animal Mother said:
			
		

> ceg4048 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you will be using TPN+ then you will be addressing the water column issues. You just have to ensure that you use enough of it. You may need to experiment with the dosages.



			
				Animal Mother said:
			
		

> My current tank is a basic planted affair just into gravel but with CO2. Some plants do well, others not too well. I wanted to move away from basic substrates because (I thought) that the range of plants you can have and their success is based partially on the substrate.


It's an extraordinarily bad idea to blame poor growth performance or to blame poor range on the substrate alone. You need to take a broader view such that poor growth performance should be blamed on poor nutrient uptake, poor CO2 uptake and/or poor flow which exacerbates the first two. There is absolutely nothing in the substrate that cannot be provided via water column dosing. So in the case of your poor performance you can only blame sand if you were not dosing the water column sufficiently. If you had some plants that did well in the same tank with others that did not do well then you should assume that the plants that did not do well were less efficient feeders or were weaker specimens. Again this is overcome by adding more of everything. Not all plants are created equal. Plants such as Watersprite or Hygros are strong and robust feeders and therefore require less nutrients/CO2 compared to Nassea or Blyxa species for example. So if these species are sitting in a tank side by side you need to tailor your dosing/CO2/flow to the requirements of the weaker species, otherwise the stronger ones thrive while the weaker perish. The sediment will only be partially to blame. _Your technique_ bears the brunt of the blame.



			
				Animal Mother said:
			
		

> What is EI?


EI is a water column dosing tailored to high light CO2 injected tanks. The technique is described in the link I gave you in an earlier post.



			
				Animal Mother said:
			
		

> What is CEC?


CEC describes the ability of a substrate to sequester nutrients from the water column and to later pass them on to the plant roots. A high CEC is desirable. Clay has one of the highest CEC values, so anythinng made of clay is good generally. See a short description of CEC in the thread 
eco complete and sand?



			
				Animal Mother said:
			
		

> The cheapest I've found Tropica AquaCare Plant Substrate in 5kg is around Â£20 (inc. p&P), how would this compare to using something like Eco Complete at Â£20 for 9kg?
> Is one better than the other and why?


If I'm not mistaken the Tropica product requires that you cap it with gravel, otherwise it disintegrates and clouds the water. Other than that they may be about the same. The CEC values are not published, so it's difficult to compare. This is yet another form of marketing coyness which adds to the confusion. Have a look at JamesC's 200 litre Akadama journal where he uses a relatively cheap clay product "Akadama"  (having high CEC) to get great results.

In summary, very few substrate products are high in NPK thereby rendering them all about the same because they all are more or less clay based and some add organic material, but none stand head and shoulders above the rest and yes, they are a little better than sand which has a lower CEC. If we could compare CEC directly it would be an easier choice.

You can read more about substrates in the following threads:
Substrate nutrients and EI dosing
Substrata , Is it worth paying for ?
JBL 'Manado' All-in-one substrate?

Cheers,


----------



## andy (27 Oct 2009)

I have a 1" layer of john innes no 1 potting compost and a 2" layer of playpit sand in my high tech tank.  Plants seem to love it and look superb.


----------



## Animal Mother (27 Oct 2009)

Thanks all for your advice, there's loads for me to think about now.  

I'd rather use a clay based substrate as it'll give me more margin for error as you say, I would consider topping with a more innert substrate though for cosmetic reasons, although I'd rather not have a substrate that'll cloud up when disturbed.

My current tank is just pea gravel and I don't dose anything except for CO2   , so any nutrients are from fish waste only. My Cryptocoryne undulata and Echinodorus tenellus seem to thrive in those conditions though.   

So, it looks like I've got loads of reading to do. I'll have to base my decision also on what a Rainbowfish Biotope would look like.

Thanks again.


----------



## Egmel (29 Oct 2009)

Right, going to shove my 2p in here as I've been doing this on the cheap since I started and I've made some interesting mistakes along the way )

Ignore TPN+ it's really expensive for what it is and James has helpfully calculated the recipe for how to make it.  Have a look at it hereand then have a look in the ferts section to find out where to buy the ingredients.

Mixing Substrates - I used pond soil topped with play sand when I started out, it was good, I wasn't dosing the water column at the time so it helped the few plants I had in there.  However it mixed together fairly quickly as things got moved or re-placed (or with the excavations of snails) plus the soil has a limited amount of nutrients in it so doesn't last forever.

I also tried some clay balls like the type you use under orchids to keep the air moist, they looked ideal but floated... so if you're going to try something a bit off the wall then check it meets the basic criteria first - will sink, no perfumes, won't crumple to pieces the moment you put it in water.

Play Sand - This is what I've been using to good effect for the last couple of years, it's fine with a dosed water column and I've a tank with lots of thriving crypts (plants which are more traditionally thought to be 'root feeders' but which we now know get on fine with nutrients coming through the water column).

I have just ordered akadama - mainly on an aesthetic level, I like the idea of a darker substrate with larger particles and if it happens to give a boost by having a high CEC then all the better. 

So generally, if you're trying to keep it cheap then decide what look you want and buy the cheapest option that fits, then dose the water column to suit your CO2 and Lighting conditions.  If you feel you need more nutrients at the plants roots then you can always add root tabs, I've bought some but have yet to need them as I find I need to prune often enough as it is


----------



## Animal Mother (29 Oct 2009)

Egmel, sounds like you and I have the same way of thinking. It's also good to see someone else has been through it so I don't have to.   

Looks like a combination of (maybe) sand (for non planted parts) and some clay baseed substrate for planted parts.

Cheers


----------



## Egmel (29 Oct 2009)

Animal Mother said:
			
		

> Egmel, sounds like you and I have the same way of thinking. It's also good to see someone else has been through it so I don't have to.


Seriously, I really wish I had videoed the look on my face when the clay balls I bought all floated up to the top of my tank through the sand... must have been priceless   


> Looks like a combination of (maybe) sand (for non planted parts) and some clay baseed substrate for planted parts.


sounds good, if you don't want much then akadama is on ebay (just do a search and look for the stuff like James used http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/akadama.htm )  You'll need to think of some way to separate them out, maybe a search through the forum might be an idea.  I've never done it so I don't know what's a good way.


----------



## AndyOx (2 Nov 2009)

Hiya, while I've not had the experience of floating clay balls, I did believe what it said on the bag of washed gravel I used many many moons ago....... washed gravel my a*s*   Cue one tank full of very very brown muddy water, not quite on the scale of Glastonbury but I was not impressed! I am currently having very good results using JBL Aquabasis capped off with silver quartz gravel. I agree wholeheartedly with Clives comments tho, good circulation, CO2 and a well dosed water column makes for very good green aquatic fingers!!


----------

