# Be careful of cheap lights



## dean (14 Mar 2016)

I bought two of these lights from eBay from a uk seller

I awaiting their reaction


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## Ryan Thang To (14 Mar 2016)




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## Paulo Soares (14 Mar 2016)

Be careful of *everything* cheap for our tanks... the cheapest we buy the most expensive in a short time..
it´s the oldest lesson in this hobbie.

Best regards


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## Greenfinger2 (14 Mar 2016)

Hi Dean,  No more to be said.

Same as on my thread Garden slim line LED 30 w from here you won't be disappointed.


https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_I...g_Floodlight_Index/LED_Floodlights/index.html


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## Easternlethal (15 Mar 2016)

My personal experience of these led china drivers has been positive. I currently have 5 going with my lights and been running them for 2 years with no problem. 

But my personal approach has been to do everything as cheaply as I can for this hobby with custom made cheap china leds, cheap aluminium tslots for my stand, cheap china made canister filters, EI ferts... 

Why not?? If it breaks or you get fed up then you can always buy an expensive set. They are easier to obtain than cheap ones!


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## rebel (15 Mar 2016)

Easternlethal said:


> My personal experience of these led china drivers has been positive. I currently have 5 going with my lights and been running them for 2 years with no problem.
> 
> But my personal approach has been to do everything as cheaply as I can for this hobby with custom made cheap china leds, cheap aluminium tslots for my stand, cheap china made canister filters, EI ferts...
> 
> Why not?? If it breaks or you get fed up then you can always buy an expensive set. They are easier to obtain than cheap ones!


While this is true, one has to be careful of fires. All could be lost. TBH though, this could happen even with mid range stuff.


Back on the issue,

Is that a shonky connection AND an unconnected ground wire??


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## dean (15 Mar 2016)

rebel said:


> While this is true, one has to be careful of fires. All could be lost. TBH though, this could happen even with mid range stuff.
> 
> 
> Back on the issue,
> ...



Yes it's a "shonky" connection and the ground or earth wire is not connected 
It's just slack workers the earth wire has the the attachment all that had to be done was to put it under one of the body screws 

I have no idea why there's joins in wires that are about 3inches long 
Obviously someone cut them too short 


I guessed that that were from China but from an English seller so thought the products may be of decent quality plus they arrived in two days 

To be honest there's nothing that I can't fix myself but why should I ?

Seller has replied I'll post a pic of their comments 


Regards
Dean


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## dean (15 Mar 2016)

So I don't think the sellers first language is English 

I've asked for both lights to be replaced 


Regards
Dean


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## zozo (15 Mar 2016)

If you can't work it out with the seller and for a chance payed with paypal put them on the case as well. Open an dispute at the paypal portal too.. In most cases paypal will refund you and process it further with the seller. That's a promise they make with giving buyer protection and offer help in disputes. In my case paypal helped me a few times, not with broken or defected parts but with stolen goods where i recieved an empty damaged box and one time with a seller just not sending the product after payment. Paypal refunded 100%..

Internet purchases alwasy contain some degree of risk, if you can't hold what you buy in your hand before paying it's always a surprice what you'll get in the end. I've ordered a lot of stuff via ebay and or aliexpress and out of the maybe 80 orders i made only 2 where unsatisfying. Read buyers reviews and feedback, they oftenly say a lot about wath to expect from certain sellers.


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## zozo (15 Mar 2016)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/usr/allbuy2018?_trksid=p2047675.l2559

Seems to be stationed in China not UK..


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## rebel (15 Mar 2016)

Even if the seller is in the UK, the parts are made in China. It's all a question of quality control.


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## Wisey (15 Mar 2016)

I don't buy anything from eBay/China anymore, it has proved false economy. I bought cheap knock off laptop batteries from eBay, after a month they would hold no charge, returned them to a UK address, but definitely China that the item was coming from, for the first return they honoured it and replaced them. The next lot lasted a little longer, but then also died and because I was beyond the possible complaint date on eBay, the seller didn't give a monkies and just ignored me.


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## zozo (15 Mar 2016)

Yes there always can be big quality difference in cheap and expensive materials.. But this isn't necessarry a garantee that higher price always is.. I experienced it myself with searching for suitable led strips, i informed at a local led retailer and he showed me, said the best i can get and the price was € 20 a meter.. Still i didn't bite and waited a while, i found out he also had a web shop.. I had to laugh, i kinda recognezid the picture he used on it's web shop, it was ripped from the seller who is selling the same strips on ebay for €5 per meter.. And does free shipping as well.. That seller is located in China and offered newer versions with better specs for €7.. I called the local seller and asked him about the newer version, he never heard of it.. lol.. Best i can get??

With internet purchase you kinda have to be a bit informed about what you are buying. The more you know what you are looking for the better buys you can make.. Just buying because it is cheap and ask nothing else is like waiting to get nicked with you looking at it and not seeing it. Aslo a rule of thumb i keep highly in respect is the amount of money a spend on an order everything over € 50 i first look up a lot of information about the product i need before i decide what to do..

The most i had to laugh with a pair of Adidas boots, i ordered in the states and even with VAT, shipping and import included i was €60 cheaper than in Germany in the shoe shop... ROFLMAO!!! A German product is shipped to America and sold cheaper than in Germany.. And the best part is when i lookad at the label inside it says Made in China..  So a German product made in china is shipped to the united states and shipped back to europe to safe money.. How mad can it be.. And i'm not kidding..


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## dean (15 Mar 2016)

That's a decent result 


Regards
Dean


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## AverageWhiteBloke (15 Mar 2016)

The Chinese have clicked on that people prefer to deal with a UK supplier on the likes of ebay, that's why they use someone as a middle man based in the UK. The goods they sell are in some cases of an inferior build quality which wouldn't pass UK standards which is why they can do them cheaper. They are also on many occasions getting round VAT and import laws. In the case of say some glassware like lillypipes it's not as much a gamble as they probably won't be of good a quality but what's the harm, don't know about electronic goods though.

I ordered a mobile phone from a big online supplier with UK in the title on the spur of the moment. Afterwards out of curiosity I googled them and the first page was nothing but complaints! They were actually registered in China and some of their electronic goods were shipping with chinese OS on and the manufacturers warranty wasn’t  worth the paper it was writ on in the UK. They were sending goods out packaged as a present/gift to get round import laws but if it was rumbled at customs you had to pay the duty as well as the storage cost and the delivery to finally get the package to you. I quickly emailed them and cancelled my order and just to be safe phoned my credit card company to stop the order.

False economy would have been an understatement if the above had happened. Unfortunately good build quality, customer service and fair rights for workers comes at a cost to the end user but at least you know what you're getting. Having said that I have and ill buy certain things knowing they come from China.


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## dean (15 Mar 2016)

It's is frustrating that we can buy stuff for £1 and it comes all the way from China yet we can't even send something small to the next town for the same price 

It's no wonder we buy everything possible from them


Regards
Dean


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## Easternlethal (16 Mar 2016)

Millions of people in china, hk and taiwan make internet purchases. On any given day, taobao, the chinese online retailer, makes more sales than ebay/amazon combined.

However it's important to understand their customs and habits. 

1. The way online sales is conducted in china is through ebay style intermediation.
2. The main intermediator, taobao, does such a good job that very very few of them actually bother setting up their own site with fancy photos and labelling or feel the need to. Even the good ones who can afford to. This is because taobao is light years ahead of ebay and provided unique features before anybody else such as being able to customise your sellers webpage, allowing consolidation of several shipments from different transactions before delivering abroad, real time chats, customer satisfaction ratings and sales numbers disclosures etc.
3. But Taobao's model is different. It is based on facilitating communications between buyers and sellers, and does it very well. Pre-sale communication is encouraged and the typical online purchasor in china will always chat with the seller in realtime before buying anything. It is very common to ask for actual photos of actual products before buying anything. 
4. Sellers equally depend on ratings and flow. This means that they are not incentised to sell things they don't have. The market is so large that they would rather say no and move on rather than try to weasel purchasers into buying stuff. The latter model just isn't profitable anymore.

So knowing all that, here is how I normally interact with online sellers.
1. Get used to the idea and practice of pre sales communications.
2. Always check directly whether something is in stock and what happens if it doesn't work.
3. Make them send photos of their products, shops, factories whatever ti see how big they are. Sellers should gladly give u this answer if they are from china. 
4. Always expect an answer. Always always. 
5. Always give feedback. This is more important in china than europe/us contrary to what some people think. On taobao if i leave negative fb I usually get a personal phonecall.
6. Don't settle for crap. Led drivers, lights, these are not difficult to make. But don't expect nice packaging or beautiful trimming. China suppliers compete on price and functionality. Not packaging.


Sent from my 2014817 using Tapatalk


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## Wisey (16 Mar 2016)

dean said:


> It's is frustrating that we can buy stuff for £1 and it comes all the way from China yet we can't even send something small to the next town for the same price
> 
> It's no wonder we buy everything possible from them
> 
> ...



If your postman was happy to work for 50 US cents an hour, like some factory workers in China, then your postage might be a little cheaper!  Wages have actually increased a lot in China, but a factory worker could still be on a dollar or two an hour. Wage growth in China in recent years has actually resulted in Chinese manufacturers outsourcing production themselves, to countries like Malaysia and Bangladesh where wages could be as low as 8-10 USD per DAY!

The other issue with China is intellectual property theft. In some cases, the same factory is making the genuine article during the day shift, then making the knock off copy on the night shift, that is why they are so similar. These companies don't even have to pay for tooling as they already have it for the genuine article, they certainly didn't have to pay for the research and development of the product which is often one of the biggest costs. If you consider the impact of intellectual property theft on the original manufacturer, all you are doing when you buy the Chinese copy is hurting the company that actually designed these new products for the aquarium trade. You are also forcing that company to charge a higher price in an attempt to recoup their R&D costs etc. It turns in to a vicious cycle as increasing prices results in even less sales and that's how companies go to the wall.

In America now, with the advent of shale fracking and gas prices coming down to a fifth of what they were before, many US manufacturers are bringing their manufacturing back home. Even though wages are still higher, they are improving their home economy by increasing employment, they are getting a brand boost from the made in the USA sticker which people at home like to see on products and the big thing for them, no more intellectual property theft! There is no point manufacturing something cheap if the guy you get to make it just steals it from you and sells it cheaper.

Even companies from other countries are moving manufacturing to the US now due to energy prices, take BASF, a German company that has moved a lot of manufacturing from Germany to the USA. One day in Europe we might just learn the lesson that if we have the highest energy prices in the world, we are going to drive business away, unfortunately we have not woken up to that yet.


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## Easternlethal (16 Mar 2016)

Wisey said:


> If you consider the impact of intellectual property theft on the original manufacturer, all you are doing when you buy the Chinese copy is hurting the company that actually designed these new products for the aquarium trade.



Actually it's a little more complex than that. Assume for a moment you are a startup with a product you want to sell on a limited basis. And this product requires heavy machinery to make - not the type of product you can make at home. Like an led driver. You need to sell several thousand just to break even. However you can't make thousands because it's a new product and you're not sure who will buy it yet.

So you can order several thousand from a German or US factory, or you can go a Chinese factory who is happy to make you 2-300 for a tiny profit. Now why is the Chinese factory willing to make you 2-300 for a tiny profit? Because it knows it can make a knock-off from your design and sell it elsewhere to recover its manufacturing costs and make the profit it wants to. So did the Chinese factory just help you or hurt you?

Don't forget that it was the choice of the product maker to go to china. Not the other way around.


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## ian_m (16 Mar 2016)

It is not just cheap Chinese knock off designs that have electrical issues.

Below is an issue with better quality lighting fixture that hadn't been soldered properly internally, and wire came loose and connected to the case (via damp) tripping the house RCD. Being not based in China, I emailed them, got a phone call back almost immediately, got a "we are sorry for the issue", got light fixture exchanged the next day, done. Won't mention names, as no need to, as it was sorted with minium hassle to me, which is the sign of a good company.


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## Wisey (16 Mar 2016)

Easternlethal said:


> Actually it's a little more complex than that. Assume for a moment you are a startup with a product you want to sell on a limited basis. And this product requires heavy machinery to make - not the type of product you can make at home. Like an led driver. You need to sell several thousand just to break even. However you can't make thousands because it's a new product and you're not sure who will buy it yet.
> 
> So you can order several thousand from a German or US factory, or you can go a Chinese factory who is happy to make you 2-300 for a tiny profit. Now why is the Chinese factory willing to make you 2-300 for a tiny profit? Because it knows it can make a knock-off from your design and sell it elsewhere to recover its manufacturing costs and make the profit it wants to. So did the Chinese factory just help you or hurt you?
> 
> Don't forget that it was the choice of the product maker to go to china. Not the other way around.



To say that IP theft is the fault of the person that went to China and not the thief in China, who would have signed an agreement then ignored it is laughable. I agree that the person has taken a risk based on the previous experience of other companies, but that in no way justifies the IP being stolen. If the manufacturer enters an agreement to produce the item at a certain price and has no rights to the IP, then they have no rights to the IP.


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## Easternlethal (16 Mar 2016)

You are right.. provided you can get an agreement in the first place. But the point is you will not get one unless you are willing to pay for it, which is usually the cost of an entire factory run. 

Sent from my 2014817 using Tapatalk


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## dean (16 Mar 2016)

I guess the problem is the law in countries like China etc 
How is a small business owner going to be able to prosecute a large factory for IP theft 
It's just not going to be practical.
We all like bargains and the Internet has opened opened up many markets for buyers which in general could be a good thing.

All you have to remember is the country with the lowest costs especially labour costs will produce the most goods 

I remember when most things had a sticker on them that said "Made in Taiwan"  
Well I'm off to eBay to spend my Refund on some parts to repair these lights 


Regards
Dean


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen (16 Mar 2016)

The fact that the earth wire isn't connected may be entirely appropriate. Does the driver even have an earth terminal? It may be double insulated, in which case it won't have an earth. If that's the case then sure, it would have been neater if they'd used two-core cable without earth, but I wouldn't necessarily lose sleep over that aspect of it.

The poor connection of the negative wire is rubbish - but at least it's on the low-voltage side. A couple of butt crimp connectors would be a far better solution, and would have cost pennies.


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## xim (16 Mar 2016)

Wisey said:


> ...Wage growth in China in recent years has actually resulted in Chinese manufacturers outsourcing production themselves, to countries like Malaysia and Bangladesh where wages could be as low as 8-10 USD per DAY!
> ...



Nah, can't be Malaysia. Their wage is higher than China 
http://www.china-briefing.com/news/...arisons-70-production-capacity-benchmark.html


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## Wisey (17 Mar 2016)

xim said:


> Nah, can't be Malaysia. Their wage is higher than China
> http://www.china-briefing.com/news/...arisons-70-production-capacity-benchmark.html



I can't find the source I used now. Looking at stats now I probably meant Bangladesh and Myanmar.


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