# White spot?



## Ray (5 Dec 2008)

Should probably post on another forum altogether but no idea where...

I added 12 rummy nose tetra's last Saturday and they seem to be doing well - coloured up, eating fine, schooling up and down - but I notice some of them have a single pinhead white spot in either dorsal region or actually on the dorsal fin.

Should I panic or wait and see?  If I do react what should I do: medicate, use salt, up the temperature, use UV?  I have Ottos and Amano shrimp in the same tank.


----------



## Dusko (5 Dec 2008)

What I did in the past and worked very well for me is next;

1 tea spoon of ordinary table salt (without iodine) per 40 litres (premixed in aquarium water before added to the tank), raised the temp to 30' Celsius, improved the surface agitation, dosed Easy Life FFM, re-dosed with NPK+traces and Easy Carbo, sit back and feed the fish once a day.

After 5-6 days spots disappeared, but I continued keeping the temp high.
My plants, Otos, Amanos, Atya gabonensis didn't suffer at all. And I didn't perform any wc after the salt treatment for approx 2 month 

I hate to use real medication.

Regards, Dusko


----------



## Dan Crawford (5 Dec 2008)

Hi mate, if it were me i'd go out and buy some off the shelf treatment now. I've never had it but i've seen it before and heard it is a bugger to get rid of. Apparently the parasite lives in the substrate but can't survive without a host (fish) Make sure the treatment is free from copper, thats normally the shrimp killer but also ask and do some research on the particular brand to see if does have any effects on shrimp. Be sure to carry on with the treatment throughout the recommend time, even if the symptoms have disappeared. It sounds like you've caught it early so your fish should be fine but i'd act fast as ich can brutal.


----------



## scottturnbull (5 Dec 2008)

Rummy-nosed tetras can handle high temperatures (up to about 31C, according to some reports). Some species of Ich apparently struggle at high temperatures. If you have no other species of fish in the tank, raise the temperature to almost thirty degrees C (approx 29.5C). You can read more about this method, and others, here.

I would definitely give that a try, and only use traditional medications as a last resort, if everything else fails.


----------



## Themuleous (5 Dec 2008)

Just to clear a few things up.

Some plants wont do very well with salty water so be careful.

Some fish get the odd spot that is white on them. Mine do.  I wouldn't panic until you see several white spots on two or more fish.  It could be nothing and you dont really want to medicate if there is nothing wrong.

Upping the temp does nothing to the white spot parasite expect for increase the speed at which it completes its life cycle.  I.e. the off the shelf treatments work by killing the free swimming parasites.  Increasing the temp means they develop faster and so get to the 'free swimming ' stage much faster.  This then gives the treatment an opportunity to work, thus reducing the overall length of time the fish are infected.

Just a thought but does anyone's tank actually stay at the set temper?  Most I would think would shift a degree or two during the day. I wouldn't want to risk it if the temp was at 30.  It wouldn't take much of a shift to affect the fish.

Sam


----------



## scottturnbull (5 Dec 2008)

Themuleous said:
			
		

> Upping the temp does nothing to the white spot parasite expect for increase the speed at which it completes its life cycle.



That's what I thought, too.

However, according to the data from the Southern Regional Aquaculture Centre: "Typically, Ich cannot reproduce properly at water temperatures above 85F (approx 30C), so the parasite usually does not cause problems in warm summer months."

Given that some sources claim a breeding temperature of 33C for Rummy-nose tetras, they seem a perfect species to try heat treatment with, provided you aren't also keeping less heat-resistant species.

If you decide to try the heat treatment, raise the temperature slowly and use aeration or surface agitation.


----------



## vauxhallmark (5 Dec 2008)

If you are looking for medicine, the last time I looked the only one that specificaly said it was safe to use with invertebrates (eg shrimp) was Tetra's white spot treatment. This could be out of date now (I think it was about a year ago), but could be a starting point for you.

Mark

PS I didn't use it in the end - no local shops stocked it and the fish (which were brand new and unquarantined by me - bad boy) all recovered. None of the existing tankmates ever got any, or have since). If you have shrimps, and you want to treat inside your main tank, best to start researching a medicine now in case you do decide to use one - you might find that it's not available locally and you'll have to order it.


----------



## Ray (5 Dec 2008)

scottturnbull said:
			
		

> Rummy-nosed tetras can handle high temperatures (up to about 31C, according to some reports). Some species of Ich apparently struggle at high temperatures. If you have no other species of fish in the tank, raise the temperature to almost thirty degrees C (approx 29.5C). You can read more about this method, and others, here.
> 
> I would definitely give that a try, and only use traditional medications as a last resort, if everything else fails.


Frantastic link, thank you Scott.  I knew the Rummies like heat, and Amano shrimp like salt, and Ottos don't like salt.  Combining that article with Dusko's experience I'm going to replicate the Dusko treatment above.  All the chemical treatments seem to either kill filter bacteria, inverts, or scaleless fish - none of which I wish to do.  



			
				vauxhallmark said:
			
		

> PS I didn't use it in the end - no local shops stocked it and the fish (which were brand new and unquarantined by me - bad boy) all recovered. None of the existing tankmates ever got any, or have since).


I wondered about this - is one spot per fish on 4 or 5 fish a true indicator of ich?  Thing is do nothing when salt and heat might work is sort of like going into denial.

Yes, I should quarantine, but my spare tank is choc full of juvenile guppies being fattened up for trade in.


----------



## vauxhallmark (5 Dec 2008)

Ray said:
			
		

> vauxhallmark said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't know. My fish were all covered in white spot a day or two after I got them. none of the existing inmates ever got any though. I think it's one of those things like colds for us - almost always around, but if you're going to get it, you get it, if not you're not.

One more tip on medicines - if it's blue don't try it with shrimps - probably copper.

Hope they pull through,

Mark


----------



## vauxhallmark (5 Dec 2008)

vauxhallmark said:
			
		

> Ray said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Ray (5 Dec 2008)

Themuleous said:
			
		

> Some fish get the odd spot that is white on them. Mine do.  I wouldn't panic until you see several white spots on two or more fish.  It could be nothing and you dont really want to medicate if there is nothing wrong.


Indeed, don't overreact, but better chance of success if you strike sooner rather than later...  Ho hum.


----------



## Ed Seeley (5 Dec 2008)

Salt and heat is how I've always treated it.  I've never found a huge problem with plants or fish when using salt at these concentrations as we're not talking brackish levels here.  I use about 0.5oz per gallon of salt and 30oC temperature (going up to 1oz per gallon for my koi as I can't raise the heat to 30oC with them!).  The higher temperature alone will kill whitespot, they seem to just burn out and don't reinfect the fish.  I agree with making sure your O2 levels are high though or your fish will suffer.


----------



## jay (5 Dec 2008)

Raise temp to 30 over a couple of days, dose Esha 2000 and Esha Exit. 
Thats how I got rid of it.
Its fine with shrimp too.


----------



## Ray (7 Dec 2008)

It is ich.  Friday night they had cleared but I kept increasing the temp, and good job, because today they re back, half a dozen per fish.  I'm at 30 degrees on the thermostat, 29 on the thermometer. Will tweak it up another degree.  I've moved my filter outlet up to the surface to help the oxygenation.  As per Dusko added 5 teaspoons of Hobby Ektozon salt, which curiously (or perhaps not) is their recommended dose as a prophylactic.


			
				Ed Seeley said:
			
		

> Salt and heat is how I've always treated it.  I've never found a huge problem with plants or fish when using salt at these concentrations as we're not talking brackish levels here.  I use about 0.5oz per gallon of salt and 30oC temperature (going up to 1oz per gallon for my koi as I can't raise the heat to 30oC with them!).  The higher temperature alone will kill whitespot, they seem to just burn out and don't reinfect the fish.  I agree with making sure your O2 levels are high though or your fish will suffer.


0.5oz = 3 teaspoons, right?  1 gallon = 4.5 litres?  So 200 litre = 44 gallons = 120teaspoons?!
Are you sure that's right and is it safe for salt sensitive Ottos and tetras?


			
				jay said:
			
		

> Raise temp to 30 over a couple of days, dose Esha 2000 and Esha Exit.
> Thats how I got rid of it.
> Its fine with shrimp too.


Sounds interesting, but a quick google found very little about it except a PFK review from 1999!?

The Rummies love the new temp, they are zooming everywhere in a tight school.  Ottos less happy, less active than normal.  No sign of ich on the Ottos or my lone guppy (originally a single fry added to be a CO2 guinea pig, but growing up fast).


----------



## Dusko (8 Dec 2008)

On Aqua Hobby it sais;



> Use salt. In a non-planted aquarium with tolerant fish, the addition of Aquarium salt at the rate of 1 teaspoon per 4 liters/1 gallon of water disrupts the fluid regulation of Ich. Do not add salt crystals directly to tank. Always dissolve salt in a small amount of tank water before adding to tank. This dosage may be repeated every 12 hours for a total of three treatments. When Ich is gone, salt is removed with daily 25% water changes.



This is how I dose salt even with plants like Cryptos, Crinum, Aponogeton, Anubias, Valls.

Read this article;
http://www.aquahobby.com/articles/e_ich2.php

My Otos didn't suffer but I did create a very strong surface agitation and am using strong pumps (15 x turnover of the water volume per hour)

Regards, Dusko


----------



## Ed Seeley (8 Dec 2008)

Ray said:
			
		

> 0.5oz = 3 teaspoons, right?  1 gallon = 4.5 litres?  So 200 litre = 44 gallons = 120teaspoons?!
> Are you sure that's right and is it safe for salt sensitive Ottos and tetras?
> 
> The Rummies love the new temp, they are zooming everywhere in a tight school.  Ottos less happy, less active than normal.  No sign of ich on the Ottos or my lone guppy (originally a single fry added to be a CO2 guinea pig, but growing up fast).



No idea what that equates to in teaspoons I'm afraid.  I always weigh the salt when dosing and add it.  

If everything seems to be fine and the white spot isn't increasing then I'd stick with what you've done already.


----------



## Ray (17 Dec 2008)

Well, I've been at 30 degrees and 1 teaspoon of salt/40 litres for 10 days now.  Its 6 days since I last saw a spot, so it looks like this was a good approach.  My LFS sold me some JBL Malachite Green medicine but reading about it on Wikipedia its really nasty stuff for fish, so I'm glad not to have used it - could be some long term ill effects from it.

Thank you Dusko and everyone else who posted all those very helpful links - this is now a handy reference thread.

Any reason not to do a normal 50% water change - can the fish handle it if the salt concentration drops that fast? (although its actually quite a small dose of salt compared to some of the articles and Ed).  I'll edge the temp slowly down over the next couple of days.


----------



## Dusko (17 Dec 2008)

> Any reason not to do a normal 50% water change



Fish can handle it but I didn't do any water changes after the salt/heat treatment for at least a month if not longer. That salt amount is not much in comparison with salt water where you need 6 kg of salt for 180 litres   

Glad you did it!

Regards, Dusko


----------



## Themuleous (18 Dec 2008)

Nice one!  Will have to remember this trick, not that I get Ich very often!

Sam


----------

