# diffuser positioning



## jay (21 Jun 2008)

hi everyone (first post wooo!!)
just recieved my rhinox diffuser this morning after ordering yesterday afternoon!
its sitting in a fluval roma 125ltr tank and i just dont know where to put it.
the mist is so much better than the chisel i was using but ive still got it in the same place.
right at the front bottom corner at the same side as the outlet.
the outlet is hitting the side glass and whipping the mist across the front of the tank.
im just wondering if the mist should be hitting the plants to be effective of not. ive no pearling at all.
iv got mostly ech.bleheri which ive never known to pearl anyway, but i often see crypt balansae pearl but not mine.

same with cyperus helferi.(dont ask me how i got this growing in a 27 gal tank with 40w of lighting) just thought d give it a go and its fine. thought they needed glosso type light demands  

anyway.... is my diffuser fine where it is or should i move it?

thanks.


----------



## planter (21 Jun 2008)

Co2 distribution Is important! 

As long as the Filter outlet is blowing the bubbles round the tank im not sure there is much more you can do. I guess if the tiny Co2 bubbles end up in amonst your stem plants at the back then they may become trapped in the leaves. Advantage or disadvantage? Im guessing as they are trapped and cannot escape into the atmosphere it could be considered an advantage although if they are allowed to collect and build into larger bubbles these will be less likely to be diffused? Have you considered placing the diffuser under your intake? this way the bubbles will rattle around in your filter until diffused! Not sure this will work if your using an internal Fluval? depends which ROMA you have. 

Personaly I Fix my diffuser to the back of the aquarium because I hate those tiny bubbles whizzing past the front glass.

Im sure someone will come along and give you a definitive answer soon! 

Welcome to the forum


----------



## jay (21 Jun 2008)

tanks.
i have a roma 125 but ive got the 205 external filter. i was contemplating sticking it under the intake but ive read before that this can be bad for the cannister?
really dont think the mist hits any plants except a few crypts at the front. it just goes along the front of the tank glass
and rests on the surface of the water. i have some surface agitation as i run co2 24hours.



also i forgot plug aquaessentials for the super fast delivery. thanks guys. litle small business not sure many people know about it here


----------



## LondonDragon (21 Jun 2008)

jay said:
			
		

> tanks.
> i have a roma 125 but ive got the 205 external filter. i was contemplating sticking it under the intake but ive read before that this can be bad for the cannister?
> really dont think the mist hits any plants except a few crypts at the front. it just goes along the front of the tank glass
> and rests on the surface of the water. i have some surface agitation as i run co2 24hours.
> also i forgot plug aquaessentials for the super fast delivery. thanks guys. litle small business not sure many people know about it here



Under the intake will work effectively also and disolve all the CO2 into the water, you might get the occasional large bubble if the CO2 rate is very high. Instead of surface agitation you could run an air pump during the night, otherwise you probably just wasting a lot of CO2.

Aqua Essentials sponsor this forum and most of us here use them too  

Welcome aboard


----------



## jay (21 Jun 2008)

think i'll give the under the intake method a go.
i use to turn off co2 at night and have air pump come on but my crypts hated it and the cyperus got hair algae from all the 
co2 being flushed out by the air pump. don't mind the excess co2 running at night really. got just enough surface movement for the fish.
also, i cant really have a pump running all night as the noise makes my girlfriend feel like putting my head through the tank.
needs her sleep  hehe


----------



## Wolfenrook (21 Jun 2008)

I have mine on a solenoid set to turn off at night, no air pump, and my crypts grow absolutely fine.  Even my new cryptocoryne cordata and grifithii appear to be growing well (despite been described as difficult).

Ade


----------



## jay (21 Jun 2008)

off at night with no air pump? do you agitate the surface?

i really dont mind the co2 consumption through the night.

what about the mist from my diffuser, should it be hitting the plants?
like the idea of it goin under the intake, just a bit cautious as ive heard about it messing up the innards of cannisters


----------



## aaronnorth (21 Jun 2008)

jay said:
			
		

> off at night with no air pump? do you agitate the surface?
> 
> i really dont mind the co2 consumption through the night.
> 
> ...



it is ok not to have surface agitation with no CO2 at night, what happens if you dont inject CO2 at all? There will be little CO2 in the water so it is ok. It may be a slight humming noise from your filter.


----------



## Matt Holbrook-Bull (21 Jun 2008)

I dont run co2 at night as I consider it a waste  lots do though.  I make sure theres good surface agitation from my filter outlets.  Plants just dont use co2 at night.. so In my opinion its a good chance to give the fish a break from it.. My solenoid comes on about an hour before the lights go on, and goes off about an hour before the lights do, that way the co2 has a good head start on the lights.

With diffuser positioning, I would say its best to have it somewhere where the mist is going to get blown about as much as possible, or youre jsut going to loose the gas straight up.  Also place the diffuser as deep as possible, the further the bubbles have to travel the less youll waste.

Placing your diffuser under your inlet is a good option as hopefully youll get the co2 sucked into the filter where itll dissolve into the water much more efficiently.


----------



## Wolfenrook (22 Jun 2008)

jay said:
			
		

> off at night with no air pump? do you agitate the surface?



Only as much as I have during the day, and that's not much.  The largest fish I have are powder blue dwarf gouramis, so there isn't all that much natural CO2 production in there, despite comparitively high stocking levels.  I'm not adding CO2 when the lights are off, so it just doesn't build up and stays at around the same levels, or slightly lower from natural diffusion off into the atmosphere, as during the day.

You really really don't need to be adding CO2 when the lights are off as it just isn't used.  I do however have it set to come on about 1 hour before the lights do, which gives the plants a 'boost' when they do come on.

If it wasn't for the fact that my tank is already packed with plants I'd probably add more in attempt to find out what wont grow in there...   

Ade


----------



## ziggy_909 (23 Jun 2008)

i don't bother with a defuser at all.
i drilled a hole in my intake pipe just above the strainer basket and sealed my co2 line to that,so the co2 runs into my eheim 2026 pro2 filter and then the filter breaks it up... i can also press the plunger down a bit to get more co2 into the tank and this lets me see how it is flowing around the tank via the spray bar.

never had any filter problems at all using it this way 

i also have a modular spray bar which is made up with 3 connecting pipes so each section can be independently rotated to a different position in the tank... works a treat...

these spray bars are also a god send come water change time...due to there air release screw a 12/16 pipe can then be fitted, this cuts the flow of to the spray bar and the filter then pumps the water out of the tank straight to your sink at a serious rate of knots...

[url=http://www.aquaessentials.co....w.aquaessentials.co.uk/index.p ... ts_id=1773[/url]


----------



## jay (23 Jun 2008)

well i've had the diffuser under the intake for a day of so now and ive already noticed the small amount of hair algae 
that was on my cyperus helferi has stated clearing!
starting to notice the odd spray of mist spurting out the outlet... hoping this is normal. cant see it all absorbing into the water in the cannister.

starting to sway to the idea of using a solenoid... although im worried about fluctuations in my ph over night.
the kH of my water is just under 4 and ph 6.8 and only dropping slightly in the night.
i have very hard tap water in my area, LFS called it liquid rock!  
just thinking if i turn the co2 off at night the ph would start to rise again wouldnt it?


----------



## Matt Holbrook-Bull (23 Jun 2008)

jay said:
			
		

> well i've had the diffuser under the intake for a day of so now and ive already noticed the small amount of hair algae
> that was on my cyperus helferi has stated clearing!
> starting to notice the odd spray of mist spurting out the outlet... hoping this is normal. cant see it all absorbing into the water in the cannister.
> 
> ...



your PH will fluctuate over night if you turn it off, but only very little.. plants dont uptake CO2 at night, so the only loss of CO2 during an off period will be through surface agitation, which will be very little.  But if you think about it, if you add CO2 during the night, when theres no takeup, then your PH will drop anyway, and by probably a higher margin as CO2 concentrations rise above the normal levels.

whenever you run your CO2 through your canister youre going to get some gas that isnt dissolved and comes out of the outlet.. dont worry about this, its not much in the grand scheme of things, and only part of it might actually be CO2 anyway, no fill source is totally pure, there are always, however small, other gases that get in the cylinder which cant dissolve (such as O2).

Are you using a drop checker with reference solution to check your CO2 levels? If not you should be.  This will be the only way to know for sure how much CO2 you have, and how efficient your changes in tactics are.

Ziggy's idea is a good one, but you need a large filter to be able to do that, anything smaller and the gas bubbles can stall the impeller and/or create alot of noise.  With the larger filters the gas has to travel further before it reaches the impeller so has longer to dissolve.

Anyway.. the pro's and con's of turning off at night have been argued for as long as Ive been in the hobby, some do it, some dont.  Personally, I do it as I try to be as green as possible and see adding CO2 when its not needed as being a real waste.  I also like to give the fish a break.

At the end of the day, I think its down to personal preference, I dont think the actual scientific Pro's and Con's add up to much either way.


----------



## ceg4048 (23 Jun 2008)

Agreed. pH fluctuations are irrelevant to plants or fish and has been given more importance than necessary. The benefit of shutting down the CO2 is that you can drive to much higher levels during the day and so shutting it off helps the fish rid their blood of CO2 overnight. You don't even have to wait for night to shut off the CO2. It can be shut off a few hours before the end of the photoperiod.

Cheers,


----------



## jay (23 Jun 2008)

filter made a big gush of trapped gas last night. scared me a bit... managed to compose myself and shake it off  

have a drop checker and shows green/slight lime.
just didnt know whether it was better for the mist to hit the plants or just so long as its in the water column for enough time.


----------



## ziggy_909 (24 Jun 2008)

> filter made a big gush of trapped gas last night. scared me a bit... managed to compose myself and shake it off



As long as you don't have to much surface turbulence your ph levels wont drop that much overnight, my ph computer reads 7.00 at night and 7.19 in the morning, i then turn on the co2 a couple of hours before the lights come on, gets me back up to speed in no time... 

as i pump co2 into the filter during the day it leaves a quantity in there for slow release at night, which helps to maintain the low drop in co2 at night..(i think) ... or this could be other trapped gases mixed in with the co2 bottle.... 

what filter are you using on your tank



> just didnt know whether it was better for the mist to hit the plants or just so long as its in the water column for enough time



as long as you have movement over the plants (slight swaying) and no dead spots you should be fine....


----------



## jay (24 Jun 2008)

ziggy_909 said:
			
		

> what filter are you using on your tank



fluval 205 though might be upgrading to 305. should be an easy transition using the existing media.


----------



## ziggy_909 (24 Jun 2008)

i wouldn't  run the co2 into the filter 24/7, any co2 built up will get released into the tank at night if the co2 is turned off, this will give the filter a chance to expel built up gases...reducing strange noises

this is a lot easier to do with a co2 probe, computer and solenoid...

if your filter has a primer for expelling air try using it when you hear gurgles coming from the filter.... 

i would think filters were designed to deal with a slight air build up.... surly this is not an uncommon occurance....


----------



## Matt Holbrook-Bull (24 Jun 2008)

ziggy_909 said:
			
		

> i wouldn't  run the co2 into the filter 24/7, any co2 built up will get released into the tank at night if the co2 is turned off, this will give the filter a chance to expel built up gases...reducing strange noises
> 
> this is a lot easier to do with a co2 probe, computer and solenoid...



I run CO2 directly into my 305 with no issues, very little ever gets trapped so long as you diffuse it on the way in.

Id be careful of probes and computers, theyre just not accurate enough to control things properly.. the only way to be sure is with a drop checker.  A PH probe measures the PH of the tank water, which is widely known as highly inaccurate way of doing it.. far too many other factors besides CO2 can alter the PH of the water.. it will lead you to have problems and highly unstable CO2.

Drop checker using reference solution is the only sure way of doing it.


----------



## ziggy_909 (24 Jun 2008)

> Id be careful of probes and computers, they're just not accurate enough to control things properly.. the only way to be sure is with a drop checker.  A PH probe measures the PH of the tank water, which is widely known as highly inaccurate way of doing it.. far too many other factors besides CO2 can alter the PH of the water.. it will lead you to have problems and highly unstable CO2.
> 
> Drop checker using reference solution is the only sure way of doing it.



i understand that ph probes measure ph levels, but surly this is used as a guide and if used in conjunction with a calibrated drop checker it will give you a suitable tank rating/ph level based on a 30ppm drop checker reading, so i feel that a +/- 0.05 reading that my probe will control via my solinoind will not only save my fish but also my co2 supply as opposed to whole heartily relying on a drop checker that is already 2 hours out of date when you read it...!!!!! 

i have to disagree with your point about co2 stability and and your reliance on solely a drop checker,,, that I'm sure will read differently at different tank locations....

if you could point me in the location of a post on 4 dKH solution as opposed to using tank water id be grateful as i haven't got my head around that 1 yet... only heard about it since joining ukaps.


----------



## JamesM (24 Jun 2008)

http://www.ukaps.org/drop-checker.htm

Also linked via my sig


----------



## Matt Holbrook-Bull (24 Jun 2008)

ziggy_909 said:
			
		

> > Id be careful of probes and computers, they're just not accurate enough to control things properly.. the only way to be sure is with a drop checker.  A PH probe measures the PH of the tank water, which is widely known as highly inaccurate way of doing it.. far too many other factors besides CO2 can alter the PH of the water.. it will lead you to have problems and highly unstable CO2.
> >
> > Drop checker using reference solution is the only sure way of doing it.
> 
> ...



drop checkers with a reference solution in good flow are pretty quick to change.. but you need to remember that its not controlling your co2, you are. So it puts you much more in control of proceedings. So in actual fact, your PH probe is more likely to cause your fish problems than it is to save them.

Also, the less fluid you have in your drop checker, the faster it will change.. obviously because the gas has far less solution to equalise. 

PH probes are also very expensive, and by measuring tank water directly, provide too much inaccuracy to justify that price.. in my opinion of course! well, and alot of other peoples too.. we had this discussion many times on the Barr Report before we ever even made UKaps.


----------



## ziggy_909 (24 Jun 2008)

> drop checkers with a reference solution in good flow are pretty quick to change.. but you need to remember that its not controlling your co2, you are.


i think i'll stick to my method of cross referencing as  from experience computer foul ups are mostly a result of human error and intervention...(this is why we have them..!!!)
controlling of the co2 is regulated this way with inbuilt safety parameters ... a bonus if stories of co2 rapid dumping are to be believed.  

from researching it the only problem i can come up with is a rapid change of water hardness to cause rapid co2 swings.......



> PH probes are also very expensive,


have you seen the price of the new drop checkers 22.00gbp i think.... 
hows the co2 delivery thread coming along, so glad i started a thread to question london prices...!!!


----------



## Matt Holbrook-Bull (25 Jun 2008)

ziggy_909 said:
			
		

> have you seen the price of the new drop checkers 22.00gbp i think....
> 
> hows the co2 delivery thread coming along, so glad i started a thread to question london prices...!!!



my drop checker cost Â£5 I think.

Were still waiting for nightfrieght to reply with some prices  once we have that we can work out whether or not its worth it for everyone.


----------

