# Twinstar DIY



## plantbrain

Several people have made Twinstar DIY models from Stainless steel mesh. 
A research paper evaluates it, this is mostly for H2 production, but the by product is O2.

http://www.engr.psu.edu/ce/enve/logan/publications/2010-Zhang-etal-IJHE.pdf

So an anode and cathod (SS mesh) and a wire coming down, this is rather simple, much like DIY heat cables. 
I made 10 heating cable units way back when. Transformer dropped the voltage down, then the cable was a known diameter that would heat to a specific temp over a distance, your heating elements on a stove use the SAME idea to heat the pot. 

Riversun showed this recently:




Pretty straight forward.
Cost, about 10-20$. 

Still, explains why my tanks do not benefit from the device, I use wet/drys and have high O2 to begin with. Such filters are not electronic and cost about the same as a good canister. You get about 1-2 ppm more O2 and much more stable degassing. Twin star does not do that. So do wet/dry filters kill algae and make the tank easier to start up? I suppose I could make the same claim. 

Old DIY heat cable article:
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Tech/Resler-Cables/


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## James O

+ you can hide a wet/dry filter and no one asks why you put alka seltzer in your tank 

And if you don't have a wet/dry filter you can make a more discrete DIY version to fit anywhere in your tank for £5 total so a replacement element doesn't cost £50


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## Marcel G

If you have wet/dry filter then you're OK. But here in Europe I have no easy way to buy any wet/dry filter (at least I don't know of any). And also many people don't have too much place under their tanks to place wet/dry filter, so many use canister filters instead. I'm not an advocate of Twinstar, but sometimes it's not that easy to keep high O2 levels in our tanks (without wet/dry filters).


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## James O

EPDM rubber hose produces very small bubbles 

Tbh it'd be cheaper to build a diy twinstar which I shall from now on call 'soda steam' because it still makes bubbles but is cheaper than the real thing


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## dw1305

Hi all,





ardjuna said:


> But here in Europe I have no easy way to buy any wet/dry filter (at least I don't know of any).


 I made mine out of inclined plastic guttering filled with LECA, and they were all planted. They sat over the tank, cheap and easy to make, but not very aesthetically pleasing. The water was pumped up via a Maxijet power-head and just ran down the guttering (with a series of internal baffles) and back to the tank over a weir. When they were in the lab it was fine, but they were a bit noisy at home. 

A HOB like the Eheim Liberty range will give you some of the advantages of a wet and dry or you could make a deBruyn type filter <http://www.aka.org/UserFiles/File/debruyn_filter.pdf>. 

cheers Darrel


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## viktorlantos

Cheers Tom, i see how wet dry improove the filtration efficiency. With optimal water temp and the wet dry could max up your filters. As i've seen on our tanks this is good for many algae, like hair etc, but may have less impact on bga especially in substrate and green dot, brush.

Bga sometimes can be killed with more flow and oxygen, but  the last video from your meeting with the plant guys shows me this isnt perfect.

The point when you sliced the hc up on the front glass, i've seen bga there if i am right. Typical with hc when the roots strart to rot and float, but if that was bga, then even your strong flow (which seemed powerful) and the added o2 not solved it.

On my very first test the TS unit killed the bga too from the similar floating hc carpet. And was effective against bga in all of our tanks. Eliminating bga not just on top if the soil and front glass, but from the soil too.

I am not saying this is a must have thing, but like we have tanks which have poweful filters uv and ts in the same tank, each thing add a little to the result. Where we use ts we not use anymore any algaecide like carbo, excel, h2o2. And we  need less algae eater for the same amount light.

Sorry for the misstype i am from mobile now


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## Marcel G

Is there anyone with ORP probe to measure the redox in aquarium prior to Twinstar operation, and then with Twinstar in it? I guess the Twinstar must increase redox, but don't know how much. It would be interesting if someone do the test, and publish the results.


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## Mr. Teapot

I thought the Twinstar used rare metal (platinum?) coated titanium electrodes producing molecular oxygen and H2O2 as well as lots of Hydrogen/O2? Isn't this the mechanism which destroys algae spores and prevent disease rather than higher oxygen levels?


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## dw1305

Hi all,





Mr. Teapot said:


> I thought the Twinstar used rare metal (platinum?) coated titanium electrodes producing molecular oxygen and H2O2 as well as lots of Hydrogen/O2? Isn't this the mechanism which destroys algae spores and prevent disease rather than higher oxygen levels?


 I'm a bit of a Twinstar sceptic, but just for the moment I'll go a long with the "_destroys algal spores_" idea. In that case I think it's the nano-bubble production that stops algal spore settlement. There is a description in "*Principle and applications of microbubble and nanobubble technology for water treatment*" <http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0045653511006242>. This is from the thread "Twinstar ..what is it?"





dw1305 said:


> This is from: Patent US6689262 <Patent US6689262 - Microbubbles of oxygen - Google Patent> "An oxygen emitter which is an electrolytic cell is disclosed. When the anode and cathode are separated by a critical distance, very small microbubbles and nanobubbles of oxygen are generated. The hydrogen forms bubbles at the cathode, which bubbles rise to the surface. The very small oxygen bubbles remain in suspension, forming a solution supersaturated in oxygen. .........The electrodes may be formed into open grids or may be closed surfaces. The most preferred cathode is a stainless steel mesh. ....... The most preferred anode is platinum and iridium oxide on a support. A preferred support is titanium."



If any one was interested in the science underlying the processes involved, there are really good web pages at <http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/index2.html>: nanobubbles: <http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/nanobubble.html>.

cheers Darrel


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## Mr. Teapot

I'm not going near a Twinstar while I'm learning how to grow plants but I do find it interesting. I'm naturally sceptical too but members like Viktor have seen real benefits from running this device.

I was under the impression this wasn't a new invention from Twinstar but just an application for existing water treatment products -  products using electrolysis to produce disinfection compounds (H2O2, ozone etc.)  PDF found here:
http://www.technology.matthey.com/article/52/3/177-185/

I think the electrodes are more than just stainless steel mesh due to how easily people have damaged them… stainless steel wouldn't stop working when cleaned in bleach of scrubbed with a toothbrush.


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## Mr. Teapot

dw1305 said:


> If any one was interested in the science underlying the processes involved, there are really good web pages at <http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/index2.html>: nanobubbles: <http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/nanobubble.html>.


forgot to say, some really interesting stuff in those links - the bits I understood!


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## dw1305

Hi all,





Mr. Teapot said:


> PDF found here:<http://www.technology.matthey.com/article/52/3/177-185/>


 Yes that is the one, I think the high price of the Twinstar units is to do with platinum/Iridium/titanium content.





Mr. Teapot said:


> forgot to say, some really interesting stuff in those links - the bits I understood!


 It was mainly beyond me as well, but I asked one of our other staff who is a physical chemist, and he said it was a pretty good resource.

cheers Darrel


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## plantbrain

viktorlantos said:


> Cheers Tom, i see how wet dry improove the filtration efficiency. With optimal water temp and the wet dry could max up your filters. As i've seen on our tanks this is good for many algae, like hair etc, but may have less impact on bga especially in substrate and green dot, brush.
> 
> Bga sometimes can be killed with more flow and oxygen, but  the last video from your meeting with the plant guys shows me this isnt perfect.
> 
> The point when you sliced the hc up on the front glass, i've seen bga there if i am right. Typical with hc when the roots strart to rot and float, but if that was bga, then even your strong flow (which seemed powerful) and the added o2 not solved it.
> 
> On my very first test the TS unit killed the bga too from the similar floating hc carpet. And was effective against bga in all of our tanks. Eliminating bga not just on top if the soil and front glass, but from the soil too.
> 
> I am not saying this is a must have thing, but like we have tanks which have poweful filters uv and ts in the same tank, each thing add a little to the result. Where we use ts we not use anymore any algaecide like carbo, excel, h2o2. And we  need less algae eater for the same amount light.
> 
> Sorry for the misstype i am from mobile now



That was not BGA, that was old crusty green algae, and hard species that forms below the glass from not cleaning it for months. There's no BGA to speak of except below the gravel line in the ADA next to the glass where is poses no issues and has never been an issue.
BGA wipes out easily with your hand, that algae is tough and requires some scraping or I prefer a razor blade. But it's not an issue. Just  a deep cleaning, that's below the gravel line if you want to make the front edge look nice, no one would even notice it unless I pointed it out. But it's a very minor issue, nothing that twinstar or any other product could address because it's below the gravel line, the ADA As is fairly old in this tank and has a lot of fines, so there's not much circulation. That's fine also, as roots add the O2. 

So this is a mute point, BGA has never pestered me, at least in the last decade or two now.  Nor is this green algae an issue either. It's just beyond the plecos and the typical cleaning routine. But if I hack some plants and then pull the gravel back away, every tank has some algae and film down there. It's a minor non issue. 
I scrape it off once every 2-6 months if it's even there. I did not scape it, it's gone now anyway, the gold nugget ate it all
Better a fish than ANY mechanical device as long as the fish do a  decent job. 

I do not use H2O2 or Excel etc on these tanks. I do not need them, same for UV etc. 
I think folks that use algae killers often cause more harm than good if they use them all the time as a routine.
A one time application after something goes wrong is okay, but........or for folks that do not use CO2 and use excel instead etc. 

Still, the point is rather straight forward about Twinstar, we KNOW what it is, how it works and we have other data that shows similar things based on O2 readings.
I added O2 to several test tanks in 2001 and 2002. At 15 ppm , there was no significant difference between algae biomass on artificial media versus 7 ppm. But many canister systems do NOT have 7 ppm or more in those aquariums, they are almost always LESS than 7 ppm at 28C.
7 ppm is typically 100%, 15 ppm is 200+%. Algal species where similar also between treatments. Plants and sediment etc where present, small filters etc, and light etc. So at 100% O2, that's likely enough, plenty to do the same job.

O2 is lethal if you add too much also, eg, 200-300% or more will kill most fish, but will likely do not much to many plants, but also will not kill a lot of algae species in natural systems also.
Amano uses Wet/dry sumps on most of the larger tanks that ADA does, his home tank included.  
I'd figured you'd jump right on board the sump/wet/dry filter thing........being the ADA fan boy that you are? 

Try the DIY method, this can be placed outside the tank if you have a sump.
I use a grounding probe also, the stray current from this and the Carbon plus etc units will toast your pH meter. 

You use thicker wire and then heat shrink and wrap the wire connecting them to the mesh. You can make your own mesh holder I suppose DIY out of something pretty cheap also.
Given the cost of canister filter, + this item, vs a wet/dry alone............I'm far from convinced.

Sumps are just much better overall on many areas, evaporation is a huge one, stable DEGASSING rates is another. 
Also, you have no O2 controller for the O2 production inside the tank, so you have no idea what is actually going on with the O2 ppm concentrations. 
You learn little by blind loyalty and NOT questioning or testing ideas, theories, things, products etc. 

If you know what level of O2 ppm that helps the tank, or have a good idea of the range, that is helpful, regardless of the product or method of adding the O2. 
O2 can be added like CO2 gas, a gas tank, it can be increased using a sump/wet/dry, chemical RXs, or via electrolysis. O2 meters can easily measure this and optimize it/control it.

That offers far more than "I use this 200$ product, you should buy it also"[DOUBLEPOST=1407307609][/DOUBLEPOST]





Mr. Teapot said:


> I'm not going near a Twinstar while I'm learning how to grow plants but I do find it interesting. I'm naturally sceptical too but members like Viktor have seen real benefits from running this device.
> 
> I was under the impression this wasn't a new invention from Twinstar but just an application for existing water treatment products -  products using electrolysis to produce disinfection compounds (H2O2, ozone etc.)  PDF found here:
> http://www.technology.matthey.com/article/52/3/177-185/
> 
> I think the electrodes are more than just stainless steel mesh due to how easily people have damaged them… stainless steel wouldn't stop working when cleaned in bleach of scrubbed with a toothbrush.




You can get other anode protections and sacrificial protection such as magnesium to reduce corrosion on the SS mesh. Or Pt plated SS mesh. 
Mg metal works well, is cheap and ideal for FW, Zn is used for marine ships etc. 
The Mg takes the corrosion basically, instead of the mesh.
This would reduce the cost and Mg metal is fairly cheap.


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## viktorlantos

All i read was an ADA fan boy, a blind and loyal salesmen, someone who push you buy things  
Not bad... but i thought we're here to care and share 

Still thanks for the feedback Tom. 

The more clients tanks we have the more i value all these units including UV too. Just look at Oliver Knott's installations UV is a common thing there in store displays. ADA use it frequently too.
Again this is very rare that you can be there all the time to wipes off BGA, vacum clean plants, mosses, ground, toothbrush decors etc. You do this as you harvest money from this. 

Many people slows down after the intensive learning cycle and the new impulse. The problem comes then usually. You can have even larger filtration, more algae crew etc, but sometimes this is not enough and you will hurt by the missed water changes and the neglected tanks. So it is not about what i can do with my hand  but how to put the baby into autopilot mode a little more without giving up the beauty side of the tank and go only shade lover plants way.

I've seen many attempts on the Hungarian boards too with the DIY version. There's a guys called Killer who did a very good one actually a few months before this is up on the youtube too. https://www.youtube.com/user/Killer1981y
The only thing what i missed is the report and the effectiveness. Seemed like the goal was to repeat the cloud effect, and not to watch the plants and the aquarium itself if this make any changes.

We do run 20 planted tanks in our gallery all of them high energy ones. Different lights (LED, HQI, T5), different ferts including EI too. So have plenty things to look at. Also the client installations.
Honestly i enjoy this part is the best after scaping. To see the progress, changes, and figuring out a better way to do things without issues. Or figuring out why everything messed up just on one weekend (when the air condition cooled down the tanks to 17C  or the opposite when someone turned off the air condition for example)



plantbrain said:


> ....But it's a very minor issue, nothing that twinstar or any other product could address because it's below the gravel line,



This is something where it helps actually. At least i can report it after 10+ similar issues just in our gallery. After years with clay substrates we accepted to see the breakdown of the soil and the algae which usually comes sooner or later because of the mud or after we reuse the soil or we never vacum it. But the tanks which running TS looks sterilized in soil. This include the algae covered sand, the foreground glass in clay soil, the deep clay substrates on the back over 25cm in height too.

I do not know the details behind it, but this is something which is not about filtration, algae eaters and plants. Nothing helped with the substrates before. We used scrapers, H2O2 or Carbo injection, or vacum cleaned like hell the substrate when it is needed  But BGA, GDA is a common guest in these places. Some you only meet with it when you dismantle the tank.

I think we run it now around 10 months continously and i can report back the controlled injection did not hurt any fish, shrimp, snail in this timeframe. Tests are over 60 tanks now.

Please do not take it as a sales speak. This is just an experiment.
I am wondering how people control the DIY version. And based on what measurements. 

ps i just made a quick update to my photo gallery as that is the fun part 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/viktorlantos/


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## plantbrain

Viktor, I'm razzing you a bit, hehe. 
I like Amano a lot, but I will and have........asked him tough reasonable questions.
I think of you more like ADG here in the USA, I know Jeff and Andrew well and over a long time frame.

My hard crust below the gravel line of perhaps a 1-2 inch long band 1/2" wide is hardly cause for concern, it's a minor detail. 
You chose to go after that as support for Twinstar, but I fail to see it as much of an issue for any hobbyist. Aquarist would love it if all they had to deal with was a small patch along the front below the gravel line.
And it does not cost them a dime, just labor maybe once every 2-3 months for a few seconds. 

I think you'd be better off focusing on the How and the Why it works aspects, not faith based approaches.
This will offer much more INFORMED rational for support, or rejection, and the understanding the limitations.
Then you might be able to say something like: "the unit on a 60p was able to boost O2 dissolved levels from 5 ppm to 10 ppm. This aided the fish health and respiration and led to an easier time adding more CO2 with less stress to the livestock and better break down of organic waste."
"However, on a wet/dry sump, the O2 difference was negligible " 
"For canister systems, I would suggest is provides a much better habitat for fish and livestock where CO2 is added."
"The added O2 allows for better/faster rates of break down of organic waste"

Things like this.

And the methods would support those statements with real hard data and observations.
Also, how can you know if it's the unit and something special or just plain old more O2 from a gas tank?
You cannot know that either way unless you have tried it, even then, the methods might had been the issue.
Instead, you seem more worried that the unit will HARM fish. 
When in fact, it's more likely that the unit HELPS the fish.
We can and have made CO2 using this exact same method. Most use gas tanks.
So my question is "how is this different from an O2 gas set up?"

Maybe you just do not care. I do not know. I am much more curious than that frankly.  
But anyone is free to not care, but then why would you care to promote something and then not understand it better?
That would make no sense, you cannot have that both ways.

So look into it more and see what other things you did, did not do. Maybe you added more CO2 because you have more O2 available for the livestock.
I stated this for the wet/drys and had the same complaints as you did prior. Now everything runs excellent. even if I leave for a few weeks and come back to what many consider disaster? It's fixed in less than a few days and looks good again. 

BGA: this is very common in ADA style tanks, mostly due to limiting N, and after a few months, most of N is gone in the sediments.
KNO3 keeps it at bay without much issue. GDA, this seems to be an issue if the CO2 is slightly off, I've never been able to induce GDA in several tanks. Others seem to have gotten easily, but then it went away. 
Twinstar selling points have mostly been about the start up phase of a new tank, and mostly claimed to target green algae, hair mostly, maybe GSA. 
 If you have GDA or BGA or both, you are doing something wrong at the basic plant growth level.
As I have long stated, this hobby is about horticulture, the growing of the plants, not killing of algae.
Does Twinstar grow plants better? No, I cannot suggest it does. Indirectly via more O2 for fish so you can add more CO2.............you could suggest that. 
So the arguments used for wet/drys could be applied to this product. 

But none of the proponents seem to be this clever. Virtually every nice ADA tank  in the last 20 years, no twinstar also. So...........



More on the DIY construction: 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I figured out a way to eliminate the corrosion on the anode side of the mesh and it's a relatively simple an cheap fix.
You wire a Magnesium sacrificial anode to the anode SS mesh, the Cathode side does not need this. 
The corrosion will attack the Mg++ metal and not the SS mesh.
You can replace the Mg metal easily and Mg is much much cheaper than platinum and easier to locate and buy.

A simple wire connector can do this. 

Using a transformer, much like a heater cable(not a bad article to read), you can step down the energy requirements for the unit.
This makes it much much safer and gets better efficiency.

So you can add one to your tank for a few $ and test and see. 
It'll be another week or so before I have the stuff together, but the assembly is a simple easy process.


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