# Twinstar..what is it?



## foxfish

So, inspired by this thread 240ltr Discus planted tank | Page 3 | UK Aquatic Plant Society
who can tell me what this is Twinstar ?


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## sa80mark

From what I can gather its an ozone generator ?


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## Tomfish

I've just been reading this and it annoyed me. I've scoured the site looking for a straight forward answer to how it works, but been constantly confronted by patronising sales patter. It doesn't make me want to buy


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## Henry

What an utterly dross website! I sense a whiff of snake oil.


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## alanyusupov

http://grassyaqua.com/repo_ar.html#repo_ar1
Is one more link about product.
Regards
Alan


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## Andy Thurston

sa80mark said:


> From what I can gather its an ozone generator ?


 I was thinking this too.


Henry said:


> What an utterly dross website! I sense a whiff of snake oil.


Definately


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## foxfish

I really don't know if ozone would be of much benefit in our planted tanks but it has been used in virtually every other type of fishkeeping environment like marines & Koi pond, even human swimming pools.
The only experience I have had with an ozone generator was in the 80s & they were pretty dangerous things to have around the house but I am sure they are safer nowadays?
So the question is ... is the twinspar an ozone generator & if so would it be of any benefit to us?


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## BigTom

Whatever it is, I'm 100% sure I don't need one


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## sparkyweasel

foxfish said:


> I am sure they are safer nowadays?


 
Yes, the ones made by reputable companies are.
But if they won't tell you what their product is or what it does, it's hard to trust them.


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## Ian Holdich

It looks cool though...I'm gonna get one.

















J/k


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## IanD

Looks like an apple product.. does it play music?


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## foxfish

So the plot thickens... this is something I found on another site ....


_the product description isn't very... descriptive but the videos on youtube show _
_an electronic device creating an effervescence effect similar to what you'd find _
_with akla seltzer. The effect in this case is produced by the baking soda _
_(sodium bicarbonate) and citric acid reacting to form sodium citrate and _
_*carbon dioxide* gas._


_ If money is burning a hole in your pocket, its awesome to now be able to _
_install power button on the side of your tank 


_


I cant find anything on youtube though?


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## alanyusupov

Hi
I have contact them about Twinstar
and got this answer.

​*Basically, there are a lot of environments of aquarium that are varied depending on the users and also there are many reasons why Green algae occurs.*​​*Before going into the details, it is necessary to understand why the Green algae occur in the aquarium. Green algae are excessive carbon dioxide (CO2) that artificially supply fertilizer ingredient including surplus nitrogen, phosphorus from soil and light. This serves as a supplier who makes the environment for algae to occur. Consumer will be water plant and green algae.*​​*If water plant absorbs provided nourishment 100%, it will be the most idealistic environment where the Green algae don’t occur.*​​If you look at the initial environment after setting aquarium, water plants a bit slowly take root in the ground after planting rather than growing actively and then absorb the nutrient. However, initially nitrogen and phosphorus in soil are the most and they will be released excessively into the water.​​Although there are a lot of nutrients, the amount of waterweed’s nutrient absorption are not enough. For that reason, Green algae occur. (If you provide strong lights and enough CO2 from the beginning, Heir green algae may appear before and after 15 days. Heir green algae occur when nutrients are abundant.) At this point, experienced aquarists normally increase water changing amount to keep the balance, or reduce lights, or try to prevent Green algae by putting Yamato shrimp, dozens of fish which eat Green algae.​​Even if new water plants seem clean with your bare eyes, you can’t see the minute green algae attached on water plants. Therefore, we recommend putting some Yamato shrimp to prevent their growing. With only ‘TWINSTAR’, you cannot remove the green algae.​​With enough light and nutrient, and CO2, water plants can take roots in 45 days and fully grow (demand increase period). Along with the growth of water plant, nitrogen and phosphorus from soil will be run low. If you plant a number of Stem plant, aquarium environment will start to change from 60 to 90 days. The biggest change is a lack of nitrogen and phosphorus. When nitrogen and phosphorus run short, Green algae will grow on a glass wall of aquarium. In case of a lack of light, Brown algae might grow usually.​​As mentioned above, environments of aquarium continue to change, and coping methods should be varied with them. ​​*Lastly, depending on the kind of water plants nutrients, speed and amount of nutrient uptake rate are different. Hemianthus callitrichoides “Cuba” grow slowly and nutrient absorption is very low. However, Glossostigma elatinoioles absorb a lot of nutrients and grow quickly. If you plant both two water plants in the same condition, Green algae will grow more in Cuba planted aquarium.*​​Like IWAGUMY, if a lot of CUBA is planted with lots of stones layout, it will become Hard water with water pH. Consumer cannot do its role, so green algae will be likely to grow more and more.​​In conclusion, the effect of TWINSTAR depends on which water plants you plant and how to manage them. In case of 90cmX45cmX45cm size water tank, we recommend putting 3 Yamato Shrimp and 3 fish which eat green algae because they will act as the buffer in various conditions to maintain a constant effect. ​​Judging from that you didn’t mention about the effect of Heir green algae, we think that you didn’t test Twinstar with new setting. Also you didn’t mention Growth of plant, so please try to set again and check.​​For your reference, you cannot expect the effect of Growth of plant from the aquarium over 30days. It is related to Law of minimum or Liebig’s law.​TWINSTAR mini has 1 operating mode, it is designed 90~120L size fish tank to prevent green algae from occurring in waterplant. TWINSTAR NANO model has 2 operating modes, Mode 1 is for 90~120L size, Mode2 is for 180~240L size. Super S is designed to keep aquarium fish from disease and it can prevent any diseases of fish in 300L~400L size aquarium. Mini S is the purpose of disease prevention in 120L aquarium. ​Plus we attached bloggers’ review from their blog so please refer to it. ​​​​*Effect on kind of algae*​- Hair/Thread algae : 95%​- Brown Algae : 90%​- Blue green : 80%​- Fuzz algae : 80%​- Green Dust algae :80%​- Green spot : 85%​​*No effect*​- Black brush / Beard​​​


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## BigTom

Heh, still not a single word about what it is or how its supposed to work.


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## Ady34

It's magic!


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## tim

Now if only it worked on bba, I can manage the rest quite easily myself


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## Henry

alanyusupov said:


> However, initially nitrogen and phosphorus in soil are the most and they will be released excessively into the water. Although there are a lot of nutrients, the amount of waterweed’s nutrient absorption are not enough. For that reason, Green algae occur.


 
"Nutrients bad. Nutrients algae causation."

But wait...



alanyusupov said:


> The biggest change is a lack of nitrogen and phosphorus. When nitrogen and phosphorus run short, Green algae will grow on a glass wall of aquarium.


 
"Lack of nutrients bad."	Eh? 

Phase 1 Phase 2 Phase 3
Twinstar		???		Algae free!


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## Henry

Looks like an excellent diffuser. If I can attach my CO2 to it, I'm having one!


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## alanyusupov

That what it is.


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## alanyusupov

Also find out on Russian forum about  Twinstar

or ozone or hydrogen but hardly hydrogen .. probably ozone ..
Previously, the manufacturer makes ozone generators, but to adjust the speed of the ozone supply was not possible, and now switched to see a new way of ozone supply ...
An interesting device to understand what's inside, so most can be done?


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## Yo-han

From their own site: http://www.twinstarnano.com/lang_en/ 


> TWINSTAR increases insufficient microelement and promotes plant’s growth rapidly by remove blocked lights by algae.





> Sterilizing factor with microbubbles destroy cell wall of green algae to inhibit growth, and it is nontoxic so harmless to aerobic bacteria.


 
So sounds like ozone indeed but releases microelements as well??



Henry said:


> Looks like an excellent diffuser. If I can attach my CO2 to it, I'm having one!


Haha, yes indeed!


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## alanyusupov

I am interested and contact them again
*Q1. It's ozone generator?*

It is not ozonizer. If you want to test, please smell it when TWINSTAR is operating in aqarium.
There is nothing to smell.

*Q2. tell me how exactly does it work,I have M1 turned on and there is a cloud dust for about 1min. and then it stop completely?*

One min is normal operation and operating algorithm is not fixed for 1 step to 3 step.

We designed that the product is being changed to operate interval at generating bubble
beause condition of occuring algae is different after setting aquarium.

What do you mean that cloud dust is bubble ?
If so, Clould dust is 99.9% of exygen.

Difference between M1 and M2 is capacity.
Capacity of M1 is for about 45cube, and M2 is 200L.

Regards
Alan


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## foxfish

Umm...I don't understand that!
Can someone please decipher the post for me?


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## Henry

I think the jist of it is "Give us your money. Thanks very much".


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## alanyusupov

I am sorry but I think if this product not good enough, is not will have so many distributors in the country like Japan.

Twinstar


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## Yo-han

So pure oxygen??


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## Yo-han

On: http://www.grassyaqua.com/repo_ar.html in the last paragraph they mention 'plasma-ion-technology' which is invented by sharp for sterilizing


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## Samjpikey

Just looks like a super expensive co2 diffuser to me , 

Made by Apple.... idiffuse 
And Your fish and plants can now listen to your iTunes library !! Haha lol


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## Yo-han

Certainly no CO2, that would be easily testable and would not be sterilizing or benificial to fish.


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## korakot

In my opinion Twinstar is a ozonizer.
By splits water molecules into H2, O2, and O3. it called Electrolytic ozone generation (EOG)
In most EOG methods, the hydrogen gas will be removed to leave oxygen and ozone as the only reaction products.
And this the benefit of Ozone to fish tank Ozone Aquaculture Disinfectant

And as a user i happy with the result of twinstar
i can't judge that help plant to grow faster or not
but i have no problem of algae in the tank even i didnt change the water for a month and 10hrs lighting period (but it can't kill algae on itself)
i will show you guy the picture later.


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## Samjpikey

How much does it cost ??


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## Yo-han

korakot said:


> In my opinion Twinstar is a ozonizer.
> By splits water molecules into H2, O2, and O3. it called Electrolytic ozone generation (EOG)
> In most EOG methods, the hydrogen gas will be removed to leave oxygen and ozone as the only reaction products.
> And this the benefit of Ozone to fish tank Ozone Aquaculture Disinfectant
> 
> And as a user i happy with the result of twinstar
> i can't judge that help plant to grow faster or not
> but i have no problem of algae in the tank even i didnt change the water for a month and 10hrs lighting period (but it can't kill algae on itself)
> i will show you guy the picture later.


 
Twinstar itself replied that it was no ozone generator so why would you think it is? If it is O3, you can easily smell it. Can you?


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## Andy Thurston

Yo-han said:


> Twinstar itself replied that it was no ozone generator so why would you think it is? If it is O3, you can easily smell it. Can you?


Its possible that twinstar are lying and the reason you cant smell it could be that its reacted with tank water before it reaches the surface. Unlike an ozone maker using an airstone in tank with bigger bubbles that reach the surface. videos of twinstar appears like a cloud of smoke that dosent reach the surface. It would be interesting to try and have a smell when its just below surface


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## korakot

The reason why I think it is ozonizer
Because it generates some kind of gas from water
So what gas that it can generate from H2O??
And when i read the benefit of Ozone and compare to the Twinstar benefit
you will see how it give you the same benefit.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2


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## Piece-of-fish

Who is up for a test then?  Sounds quite interesting but bit too expensive. Lets raise funds all together?  To stop all rambo jambo.


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## foxfish

Ian Holdich said:


> It looks cool though...I'm gonna get one.
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> J/k


We can just wait for Ian to test one?


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## Ian Holdich

foxfish said:


> We can just wait for Ian to test one?



I'd rather stick pins in my eyes. ; )


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## Ady34

Ian Holdich said:


> I'd rather stick pins in my eyes. ; )


Isn't that what they all said about co2 before Amano?
Having said that there is science behind the co2, we can't even determine what twinstar actually is!!!??? Lol


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## Ian Holdich

Ady34 said:


> Isn't that what they all said about co2 before Amano?
> Having said that there is science behind the co2, we can't even determine what twinstar actually is!!!??? Lol



People really did put pins in their eyes? Lol

I'd rather stick to the good old c02 and ferts, they seem to work ok for me.


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## dw1305

Hi all,
For what it is worth I think it is an ozone generator, and I won't be buying one.
cheers Darrel


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## Ian Holdich

On a side note, anyone know what happened to the hole in the ozone layer? Maybe the government could test one out for us.


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## Andy Thurston

Its still there
The hole in the Ozone layer shrinks to second smallest in two decades (but is still the size of North America)  | Mail Online


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## Ian Holdich

Or is it...the best political tool in the world is global warming.


Conspiracy theory alert!


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## Henry

I don't think I've heard the words "Global warming" for at least 5 years. It's either been swept under the carpet, because big oil doesn't like it, or it turned out to be a joke (just like TwinStar).


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## BigTom

Ian Holdich said:


> On a side note, anyone know what happened to the hole in the ozone layer?


 

It's still there, but starting to slowly shrink thanks to international bans on CFCs.  Ozone Hole Shrinks to Record Low | LiveScience 



Henry said:


> I don't think I've heard the words "Global warming" for at least 5 years. It's either been swept under the carpet, because big oil doesn't like it, or it turned out to be a joke (just like TwinStar).


 
Or as I'm sure you know really, it was mainly just a smaller and somewhat simplistic moniker for climate change. Which is undoubtedly used as a politic tool, but is also undoubtedly happening.


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## dw1305

Hi all,


Henry said:


> I don't think I've heard the words "Global warming" for at least 5 years. It's either been swept under the carpet, because big oil doesn't like it, or it turned out to be a joke


"Global anthropogenic climate change" is still very much current and happening. Have a look at this PDF <http://www.met.reading.ac.uk/~swr01tjw/pubs/win10-winds.pdf>.

The latest models for the UK and N.W. Europe don't look too promising, and global warming may well prove to a combination of cold and wet for us.  <Tim Woollings' Homepage>.

I don't think the American participants in the "fracking boom" are going to be too concerned about the global climate, but just in the money they can make now.

The problem is that although 97% of climate scientists are out there looking at the science, a lot of the press is only interested in the 3% who are either sceptical, or undecided. <		 Scientists Agree Human-Caused Climate Change is Real: But Wait, We’ve Known That for Decades! - The Equation	 >.

cheers Darrel


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## Henry

Ok. Can of worms there.

Back to TwinStar?


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## Ian Holdich

In summary...there's no need for it, if you want just put your iPhone in your tank.


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## aliclarke86

Ian Holdich said:


> In summary...there's no need for it, if you want just put your iPhone in your tank.



Haha I think that's a good idea for any apple product full stop but.......... that's another subject  

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 4 Beta


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## Yo-han

Yo-han said:


> On: http://www.grassyaqua.com/repo_ar.html in the last paragraph they mention 'plasma-ion-technology' which is invented by sharp for sterilizing


 
I don't think they would say it uses this technology and than selling a ozone generator. By making false claims they risk some serious charges. Whether or not it will be beneficial to your tank I don't know, but here is a link with a short explanation of plasma-ion-technology. In theory it could work but IMO the effect will be minimal, but I'm open to test it in my tank if someone sponsors it!


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## Ian Holdich

Yo-han said:


> I don't think they would say it uses this technology and than selling a ozone generator. By making false claims they risk some serious charges. Whether or not it will be beneficial to your tank I don't know, but here is a link with a short explanation of plasma-ion-technology. In theory it could work but IMO the effect will be minimal, but I'm open to test it in my tank if someone sponsors it!




I don't understand how it would work, there's just no point to it. There are easier ways to oxygenate you tank, the cheapest way is to raise your outlet a little...
I'm not sure how serious charges would be, there's no end of false claims in this game, anyone cycled a filter in 24 hours? I can 100% say no they haven't. However, there's plenty of companies out there that will state you can, with a simple bottle of snake oil.


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## Yo-han

It's not oxygenating at all! It produces O 2- ions not O2. Basically its oxidating your tank instead of oxygenating. Like adding H2O2 all day long or any other oxidator. Whether or not this will do anything I'm not really sure, ORP is a very controversial thing in the fresh water aquarium world. But IMHO I do believe a tank with a high ORP value is more likely to be healthy than one with a lot of reductors.


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## alanyusupov

Ian Holdich said:


> I don't understand how it would work, there's just no point to it. There are easier ways to oxygenate you tank, the cheapest way is to raise your outlet a little...
> I'm not sure how serious charges would be, there's no end of false claims in this game, anyone cycled a filter in 24 hours? I can 100% say no they haven't. However, there's plenty of companies out there that will state you can, with a simple bottle of snake oil.


 
I would say that is not everybody in the beginning in a hobby can manage algae problems. Then in fact they just giving up the hobby. And this product helping to minimise the algae bloom. Instead of adding some chemicals to the tank. 
Do you know Dave Chow who is a world famous aquarist.
He will sell TWINSTAR in Hong-Kong.
Also The press in Germany and Poland want to interview them for introducing the TWINSTAR in EU.


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## Ian Holdich

Anyone will market anything if you pay them enough...

I really can't get my head around how it would work though, we know that ammonia and light cause algae, how does this impact on that? We know that lack of C02 exacerbate algae, how does this impact on that? I can't rationally see how it does? 

If someone can explain this, then I'd be very grateful, until then I will reserve my judgement on this.


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## Yo-han

alanyusupov said:


> I would say that is not everybody in the beginning in a hobby can manage algae problems. Then in fact they just giving up the hobby. And this product helping to minimise the algae bloom. Instead of adding some chemicals to the tank.
> Do you know Dave Chow who is a world famous aquarist.
> He will sell TWINSTAR in Hong-Kong.
> Also The press in Germany and Poland want to interview them for introducing the TWINSTAR in EU.


 
Yes, but Dave Chow wins the Grand prize also without the twinstar Don't forget he is a business man, and if it doesn't hurt the tank than why would he not sell another gadget?

Still in theory this gadget is nice, is it neccesary, no, not if you do everything else the right way. May it help your tank, perhaps, cant say till I tried it myself. Based on what I've read so far I can't just call it snake oil. And simple saying it is a ozone generator (something which can very easily be checked by smelling) without having seen one, and although they clearly state it is something else, I find a little unfair!


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## Yo-han

Ian Holdich said:


> Anyone will market anything if you pay them enough...
> 
> I really can't get my head around how it would work though, we know that ammonia and light cause algae, how does this impact on that? We know that lack of C02 exacerbate algae, how does this impact on that? I can't rationally see how it does?
> 
> If someone can explain this, then I'd be very grateful, until then I will reserve my judgement on this.


 
Simple said: the oxidizers attack all kind of pathogens so this is why they stated it helps your livestock. It think oxidators can do the same thing with algae spores and thus reducing algae. If added enough it can kill algae (think like a whole tank treatment with H2O2) it kills the algae, not the plants and fish at the right concentration. So nothing to do with CO2, NH4 etc... All about redox: How Aquarium Redox Balance, Potential, & Reduction relates to aquatic health


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## Ian Holdich

So, it needs to be on for the length of time that the light is on? If so, that's gonna be one misty tank, if your running c02 also. That's also an interesting read, I'm still trying to work out regarding the mg etc etc. are you going to have to constantly dose ferts if its breaking them down? 

I still believe it's not needed and a natural balance is best.


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## dw1305

Hi all,


Yo-han said:


> Whether or not this will do anything I'm not really sure, ORP is a very controversial thing in the fresh water aquarium world. But IMHO I do believe a tank with a high ORP value is more likely to be healthy than one with a lot of reductors.


It is like all these questions, there isn't a black and white answer, it is all shades of grey. Any tank with a substrate is going to have regions with reducing conditions and negative (ORP)REDOX values, this isn't bad or dangerous, it is an entirely natural situation, and without it a lot of nutrients would be both oxidised and unavailable.

10 years ago Reefers were all madly measuring REDOX values, now they all have deep sand beds. 20 years ago a lot of Rift lake Cichlid keepers were using hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) to remove all traces of tannins etc from their tanks, I doubt many are now. UV is in vogue at the moment, but again I'm not convinced that it offers any advantages.

If you keep fish from highly oxygenated, heavily buffered alkaline water (like Goby Cichlids) you would want lots of oxygen and ORP values in the ~ 300mv range, if you don't I'm not sure it is relevant. I wrote an article for plec keepers that covers some of this area: <plecoplanet: Aeration and dissolved oxygen in the aquarium>.

I use a related concept for tank management, maintenance of a low BOD and ensuring that oxygen levels remain high, but I don't worry about humic compounds etc., in fact quite the opposite I actively add them.

If you have plants (and to some extent efficient microbial filtration) you don't need anything else.

cheers Darrel


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## Piece-of-fish

On the other hand, why would a company create such an expensive device which would not work or be a total snake oil? Its amazing how easy it is to talk and bash it before it was even tested by anyone. I agree it cost a lot otherwise it would be tested already by more people.
Until then its just an empty conversation really 
Who wants to be a test rabit hehe


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## dw1305

Hi all,


Piece-of-fish said:


> On the other hand, why would a company create such an expensive device which would not work or be a total snake oil? Its amazing how easy it is to talk and bash it before it was even tested by anyone. I agree it cost a lot otherwise it would be tested already by more people. Until then its just an empty conversation really


The problem is that you can't really test it, or any other similar bit of kit. In any tank the number of variables (factors) is huge, which means that it is almost impossible to quantify the effect of any one factor. I'm sure that most of us could do something particularly ill advised with our tank without causing too many problems, particularly if you have a large plant mass.

Have a look at Tobi's fertiliser thread for an example of the difficulties of trying to quantify what really makes a difference: <For Dan ... Spezial N - Nitrogen Fertilizer | UK Aquatic Plant Society>

cheers Darrel


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## foxfish

I must say I am surprised at all the negative comments!
I can't understand why some folk disapprove of something that they don't even know what it is or how it works LOL..
The mystery continues! I posted a similar thread on the American site only to get a similar response but .... still nobody knows how the device is supposed to achieve what it is said to do!!


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## Andy Thurston

foxfish said:


> .... still nobody knows how the device is supposed to achieve what it is said to do!!


It gets my dissaproval because nobody knows how it works and the makers seem unwilling to tell us


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## Yo-han

Perhaps the makers aren't unwilling to tell, but they just don't tell in English because it is not their native language nor are they actively marketing yet in English based countries. I think there are some ver judgemental people here, with reasonings like: I don't get it so it's crap/snake oil...


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## Henry

Big Clown hit the nail on the head.

Just because it's expensive and supposedly complicated, it doesn't mean it works. Despite the fact that the only literature on it is in Japanese, the translation does not excuse that there is no explanation of how it achieves what it claims to.

The fact still remains that if we supply our plants with everything they need, we don't need any overpriced gimmick to remedy our cock-ups.


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## Yo-han

That I agree, but remember that only a few decades ago, pressurized CO2 was one of those overpriced gadgets


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## Andy Thurston

That overpriced gadget can stay on shelf till it can back up its claims. My money can be spent on more plants instead


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## Henry

Yo-han said:


> That I agree, but remember that only a few decades ago, pressurized CO2 was one of those overpriced gadgets


 
Very true, but CO2 is one of the main components in photosynthesis. It is essential for good plant growth, especially at the high light levels we use in comparison with what people were using back then. This gadget doesn't seem to add anything, only prevent algae. We can do that without some silly iFad.


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## alanyusupov

I have this instraction


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## Ian Holdich

Yo-han said:


> Perhaps the makers aren't unwilling to tell, but they just don't tell in English because it is not their native language nor are they actively marketing yet in English based countries. I think there are some ver judgemental people here, with reasonings like: I don't get it so it's crap/snake oil...



Yep I said snake oil...is it needed? 

Is it really needed? 

Can anyone explain what effects it has on mg etc etc in the tank?


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## foxfish

No one I know can explain how is does anything at the moment mate...
However I do have another question ... why are the snake oil believers so interested in this thread if the device has no purpose?  ...just asking like.... 
Are we not all hanging out to know what the mystery device can do, if anything  & if it will help us or not?


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## aliclarke86

I'm sat back quietly watching so I can find out the in the end

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 4 Beta


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## Henry

I'm interested, because I'm not always right. I want to be proved wrong. I want it to allow me to have an immaculate aquarium without any effort.


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## Ian Holdich

I'm interested cos it looks like an apple product...

Does it really have a purpose?


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## Piece-of-fish

Yes I have read that topic. To some degree you are right saying about number of factors. From this device I would expect quite easily noticable results though.
Anyways. Very typical reaction of the public to all things new.


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## Andy Thurston

Stinks like snake oil but i just want to know too


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## Yo-han

Ian Holdich said:


> Yep I said snake oil...is it needed?
> 
> Is it really needed?
> 
> Can anyone explain what effects it has on mg etc etc in the tank?


 
If it truly uses ion plasma technology as stated above, than it would have no effect on any ions and thus on 99% of our fertilizers. The only fertilizer it might have an effect on (although negative, like UV, ozone etc.) is chelated metals like iron. Magnesium, nothing...

Is it needed you ask... IMO: No!! But someone should defend the apparatus


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## korakot

Here's my tank with Twinstar.
I would say it really help to control algae.
(10hrs/day water change every 2 weeks)


but as i said, it's can control algae in the tank but not on itself



And you can check this out for information. (use google translator)
http://blog.naver.com/enbion2010
http://www.grassyaqua.com/repo_ar.html


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## viktorlantos

http://blog.naver.com/twinstarnano/150172392545

If this stuff would not work this would not get so much attention quickly.
In my mind this mainly helps for beginners. And if this do so it's a good thing. Still the majority of the newcomers gave up the hobby because they could not handle the initial issues with the tank and they get dissapointed immediatelly as they jumped in the hobby because of the wonderful scapes.

Companies can sell UV. For what? Maybe one time green water issue for 2 percent of every new planted tank? (in a planted tank not a fish tank where the sterilization capability is useful)

So if UV has a market. or other gadgets than Ozone then something which works continously in a tank is not an extra.

Some people pay this much money on easy carbo, algexit, bluexit and other chemicals to kill algae. So if you compare this stuff with the ammount what they spend on checmicals, this isn't that much anymore.

For advanced guys this is really not needed for sure. But it's like an automatic screen washer in your car or auto headlights. Noone really wanted these stuffs in the past. And now we just live with them and probably forgot how the screen need to be washed 

Still it's an interesting gear. Would try it for sure.


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## foxfish

Go on Victor buy one .....


----------



## viktorlantos

foxfish said:


> Go on Victor buy one .....


 
The problem is that we do not have any algae in our tanks now. So first need to leave them alone for a week


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,
If a picture paints a thousand words, it is this one:





Even if it worked as well as H2O2 or UV. it would still be pointless.

cheers Darrel


----------



## BigTom

That photo had me in stitches!


----------



## Gary Nelson

I quite like this new invention... I see it removes all algae from plants and acts as a giant algae magnet - a great piece of kit that costs the EARTH! hmmmmm


----------



## Andy Thurston

Take it out korakot and see if tanks still algae free in a week or 2. That will tell you if it works or not.
Perhaps your better at growing plants than you think


----------



## viktorlantos

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> If a picture paints a thousand words, it is this one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even if it worked as well as H2O2 or UV. it would still be pointless.
> 
> cheers Darrel



So CO2 ceramic diffusers are not working in general because they will be covered with green algae first on its plate after 2 weeks and grow brush on them if you lazy with maintenances? External filters not working because if you do not maintenace them periodically they will clog or may will do dirty looking water? Same for inline diffusers etc.

This stuff only provide one thing. Helps with the initial algae breakout WITH the help of the regular cleaning crew. This do not promise that it will do the maintenance work with a push of a button or based on some preprogrammed mumbojumbo 

Maintenance needed. Water changes needed and depend on how much light you shoot the stuff need to be cleaned - they mention in the manual how to clean it.

So for me it looks like something which was never cleaned. And of course if i would be the manufacturer i would pull my hair out to see this promo piece at the worldwide start of a new product


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


viktorlantos said:


> So CO2 ceramic diffusers are not working in general because they will be covered with green algae first on its plate after 2 weeks and grow brush on them if you lazy with maintenances? External filters not working because if you do not maintenace them periodically they will clog or may will do dirty looking water?


I can see your point, but added CO2 isn't claiming to deter algae, and there is a good scientific rationale for why  adding CO2 works. Aquatic and terrestrial plant growth is often CO2 limited, and there is a huge amount of scientific evidence for this, including for the green algae. I think this should be available to every-one "High-CO2 Response Mechanisms in Microalgae": <http://cdn.intechweb.org/pdfs/28380.pdf> .

Filters again are a different argument, we are talking about a system which only works because of its microbial content, if the system was clean, and stayed clean, you wouldn't have any microbial filtration.


viktorlantos said:


> This stuff only provide one thing. Helps with the initial algae breakout WITH the help of the regular cleaning crew.


This is really my problem, you have to have an algae free tank (that is heavily planted), then you add the TwinStar unit, Amano Shrimps and SAE. This scenario leads to lower levels of a limited range of algae, but doesn't effect BBA (Rhodophyta), higher plants, or your filter bacteria. The company doesn't tell you what it is, but there  are definitely hints that it is micro-bubble ozone generator.

If it works why do you need the shrimps & SAE?

Why does it only effect attached filamentous green algae, but not "green water" when both algae types belong to the Chlorophyta, and have identical physiology and photo-systems?

Even if it worked, is a green algae free aquarium a desirable out-come? I don't think it is. I'd struggle to find much obvious green algae in my tanks, but if I looked closely enough with a low powered microscope all the older leaves and permanent structures will have a very short "stubble" of cropped off biofilm of green algae, cyanobacteria, diatoms, rotifers etc.

cheers Darrel


----------



## alanyusupov

I Ask about product and answer is;

One of your question was how to works. Do you means technology?
There are five factors of mechanism including plant ecology  but we can't tell you because of company's secret.

Regards
Alan


----------



## aliclarke86

alanyusupov said:


> I Ask about product and answer is;
> 
> One of your question was how to works. Do you means technology?
> There are five factors of mechanism including plant ecology  but we can't tell you because of company's secret.
> 
> Regards
> Alan



Hmmmm........ so it seems they must have either come up with something new and spectacular and dont want it stolen or it really not much to it and not worth time...? 

Still no answer what so ever about what it actually is though?? 

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## alanyusupov

aliclarke86 said:


> Hmmmm........ so it seems they must have either come up with something new and spectacular and dont want it stolen or it really not much to it and not worth time...?
> 
> Still no answer what so ever about what it actually is though??
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 2


I think is just guestin no going to help and company will not tell you what is it you can falow for more information.
The one I trust.
http://grassyaqua.com/repo_aq.html


----------



## bluemoon280

So, I have just found out how the twinstar works. 

It has a special doohickey that fits inside a thingamybob.  This then has a doodaa that presses on a whatchamacallit. 

Overall it generates two hoohaa's a minute. The effect on subsonic algae is quite ositronic. 

Its available in three sizes:
4" ,  10cm and 100mm

Not guranteed to work on blue, brown, grey or green algae, as long as you don't cross the streams.!


----------



## alanyusupov

bluemoon280 said:


> So, I have just found out how the twinstar works.
> 
> It has a special doohickey that fits inside a thingamybob. This then has a doodaa that presses on a whatchamacallit.
> 
> Overall it generates two hoohaa's a minute. The effect on subsonic algae is quite ositronic.
> 
> Its available in three sizes:
> 4" , 10cm and 100mm
> 
> Not guranteed to work on blue, brown, grey or green algae, as long as you don't cross the streams.!


Engineer


----------



## ravattar

May be it is ultrasound?


----------



## ravattar

It looks the same  Hann Atocleaz CS 300 Sterilizing Water Maker Food Kitchen Cleaner | eBay

"Through using electrolysis, this eco-friendly disinfection technology involves splitting of water molecules to ultra-fine particles to generate hydroxyl, which then combines with hydrogens in the cell membranes of harmful bacteria to destroy them."


----------



## foxfish

That does look remarkably similar!


----------



## Yo-han

Indeed, and like I mentioned before, this uses plasma ion technology as well...


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


Yo-han said:


> Indeed, and like I mentioned before, this uses plasma ion technology as well..


I think Johan is correct, they are the same and are both using ionization. This whole area is dogged by pseudo-science <"Ionized" and alkaline water: snake oil on tap>, and I can't see how it can possibly offer any advantage in the fish tank.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Andy Thurston

Sounds about as much use as a uv sterilizer, in a planted tank, with the extra disadvantages of adding clutter and extra cost


----------



## ravattar

Key word for scholar.google.com is "electrolysis disinfection of water".

Volume 52 Issue 3 Electrochemical Water Disinfection: A Short Review | Platinum Metals Review

Drinking Water Disinfection by In-line Electrolysis: Product and Inorganic By-Product Formation - Springer

It is not a snake oil. 

"Plasma" "ion" bla bla are markiting triks. May be, electrolysis sounds bad?


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


ravattar said:


> Key word for scholar.google.com is "electrolysis disinfection of water".....It is not a snake oil.


I probably didn't make clear exactly what I meant. I'm not saying it doesn't work as a disinfectant, the process is widely used in cooling water, car washes, swimming pools etc.

The mechanism of action is that it produces chlorine from a chloride source (usually NaCl - dissociated as Na+ Cl- ions, but they can be at low concentrations) via a platinum electrode set. You can also produce ozone, oxygen and hydrogen peroxide via electrolysis.

I don't intend to start adding chlorine (Cl-), hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) or ozone (O3) to my tanks, what useful purpose would they (or any other oxidator and/or biocide) serve? If I want to add more oxygen to the tanks (and I like a lot of oxygenation), I'd add a wet and dry trickle filter and reduce BOD as far as possible.

This is on page 3 of this thread, and it covers REDOX vakues.


dw1305 said:


> Any tank with a substrate is going to have regions with reducing conditions and negative (ORP)REDOX values, this isn't bad or dangerous, it is an entirely natural situation, and without it a lot of nutrients would be both oxidised and unavailable. 10 years ago Reefers were all madly measuring REDOX values, now they all have deep sand beds. 20 years ago a lot of Rift lake Cichlid keepers were using hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) to remove all traces of tannins etc from their tanks, I doubt many are now. UV is in vogue at the moment, but again I'm not convinced that it offers any advantages. If you keep fish from highly oxygenated, heavily buffered alkaline water (like Goby Cichlids) you would want lots of oxygen and ORP values in the ~ 300mv range, if you don't I'm not sure it is relevant.
> 
> I wrote an article for plec keepers that covers some of this area: <plecoplanet: Aeration and dissolved oxygen in the aquarium>.


 
cheers Darrel


----------



## foxfish

Ah ha ... Lots of plants. | UK Aquatic Plant Society


----------



## Ichthyologist

OK, I'll bite and throw in my theory. It is an ultrasonic plate. The fine mist of bubbles you can see inthe YouTube videos is degassing of the water caused by cavitation. The efect is demonstrated in this video 
Having worked with ultrasonic baths I would not put my hands in a tank with this device, if this is indeed the principle. If it is degassing the water it's not going to be good for flora or fauna.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


foxfish said:


> Ah ha ... Lots of plants. | UK Aquatic Plant Society


  I think the "Twinstar" is probably the source of  bubbles in:




From: <Lots of plants. | UK Aquatic Plant Society>.

cheers Darrel


----------



## foxfish

Hi Darrel - so are you going to tell him!


----------



## Ichthyologist

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> I think the "Twinstar" is probably the source of  bubbles in:
> 
> 
> 
> From: <Lots of plants. | UK Aquatic Plant Society>.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Could be, the bubbles look localised and not the CO2 production of photosynthesis.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


Ichthyologist said:


> I'll bite and throw in my theory. It is an ultrasonic plate. The fine mist of bubbles you can see inthe YouTube videos is degassing of the water caused by cavitation.


That is certainly another option.


> Could be, the bubbles look localised and not the (C)O2 production of photosynthesis


I'm pretty sure the bubbles aren't evolved oxygen or CO2

cheers Darrel


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


foxfish said:


> Hi Darrel - so are you going to tell him!


 I think he probably knows, and he doesn't say that this is pearling.

You can get the same micro-bubble effect using webbed urethane membrane, if you can get high enough gas pressure. They use these a lot in aquaculture/waste water treatment now (along with PTFE diffusers) as they offer advantages over EPDM or ceramic disc diffusers.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Ichthyologist

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> I think he probably knows, and he doesn't say that this is pearling.
> 
> You can get the same micro-bubble effect using webbed urethane membrane, if you can get high enough gas pressure. They use these a lot in aquaculture/waste water treatment now (along with PTFE diffusers) as they offer advantages over EPDM or ceramic disc diffusers.
> 
> cheers Darrel



The unboxing video does not show any gas inputs, only and electrical connector.


----------



## Ichthyologist

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> I think he probably knows, and he doesn't say that this is pearling.
> 
> You can get the same micro-bubble effect using webbed urethane membrane, if you can get high enough gas pressure. They use these a lot in aquaculture/waste water treatment now (along with PTFE diffusers) as they offer advantages over EPDM or ceramic disc diffusers.
> 
> cheers Darrel


To completely digress, I used to provide tech support for this membrane, made from Aluminium oxide.  
	Anopore Inorganic Membranes (Anodisc)


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


Ichthyologist said:


> The unboxing video does not show any gas inputs, only and electrical connector.


 I know, I wasn't suggesting that as a mode of operation for the Twinstar, just another way of creating micro-bubbles. I still think it is an oxidator, although an ultrasonic plate is a possibility that I hadn't really considered, just like an ultrasonic mister in reverse.


Ichthyologist said:


> Anopore Inorganic Membranes (Anodisc)


Interesting, my suspicion would be that that is quite an expensive and specialist bit of kit.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Ichthyologist

dw1305 said:


> I still think it is an oxidator
> 
> cheers Darrel


Well that would be easy to test, it involves a match and me not being in the same room!


----------



## alanyusupov

Hi everyone
I am growing rare plants for very long time.
And I didn't have this result only in one month and a half.




Regards
Alan


----------



## NatureBoy

alanyusupov said:


> Hi everyone
> I am growing rare plants for very long time.
> And I didn't have this result only in one month and a half.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards
> Alan


 
don't beat yourself up, your plants have always had amazing health with or _without_ the gadget. creates a mysterious steam train effect though, which may catch on in its own right.


----------



## Ichthyologist

NatureBoy said:


> don't beat yourself up, your plants have always had amazing health with or _without_ the gadget. creates a mysterious steam train effect though, which may catch on in its own right.


Yes, do the experiment, take it out and see what happens. I would bet that their is no difference.


----------



## ltsai

Started seeing this in our local LFS too: ::: GC-Shop ::: Stunning Aquarium Simply For You. There's even a shrimp version.


----------



## foxfish

It wont be long now ... every tank will have one


----------



## alanyusupov

I think is good to have in the new tank for starting, before never started any new tank without algae, but this time I really don't have algae.
Problem was only when I went out to the sea side for 5 days, and I forgot to plug it on. When I came back I seen this.













Then I switch it on,  did two times 70% water changes, then in a week, water in the tank becomes clean again.


----------



## flygja

I'm leaning towards ozone generator for the purposes of purification. Whether its solely responsible for algae control in a tank needs to be tested in an A-B test. 

Ozone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Orlando

So I just read 6 pages of stuff and I still have no clue what this gizmo is or does. I fight my algae with my hands I dont care.


----------



## viktorlantos

Had a quick chat with Dave Chow in Japan about this device. He is using it a while ago and now it's kind of there in his maintenance tool bag.

My question was that this only works with new tanks? Nope this works with any tank.
Which algae he seen is it good for? Cyano, Green dot, Diatom.
Putting in this device to an aquarium which has Cyano algae the algae dissappear fully within 2 weeks from the substrate too.
Plants grown quicker a little, but he correctly pointed out that this is not a cure for all. Helps with some things, but you need to take care for other things.

I see this as a helpful device for beginners mainly.

Waiting for my test product too probably will receive next week, then i will share my experience too.


----------



## foxfish

Thanks Viktor I will really look forward to your personal test


----------



## macek.g

Does not work on the cyano


----------



## viktorlantos

Cheers too all.

Some of you may know from my flickr page that i started to test this device a week ago. Actually the Twinstar Nano model which has 2 mode. 90*45*45 and 120*45*45.
Since there's a lot of negative feedback - as usual - when something new appear on the market i thought this is a good idea to share my experience with it after the first week of use.

This will be a longer post so who do not like to read i can tell that Twinstar won the 1st week for me.  - and it did not get sponsored for this post 

Here is a little background on the test tank.

This is a 5-6 month old fully matured tank. - So not a new one.
We usually had it run without problems thanks to the cleaning crew and maintenance work, but in the past 2-3 weeks we had several issues with the CO2 system and the tank slowly started to look very bad.
We had algea on the trimmed parvula mini carpet. Algae in the tennellus. Dragon stones were a little green dotted even after cleaning as you could not clean in every single hole etc.
Of course because of the algae some surface scum was there.
The left side of the tank had a massive BGA/Cyano breakout. This usually happend when the HC carpet got thick and the roots get rotted and started to lift off. Below the carpet the BGA just spread really quickly and just a matter of time when you meet with it on the carpet too.

Another issue was that the tank was a little cloudy. Not sure of the reason, as all of our others tank run crystal clear and we had 250ml purigen in this 180L tank too. But the cloud always came back a day after the water change.

So we have a nice matured tank which is bleeding from many sides. And it does not matter we have 30-40 amano shrimps, 2-3 Neritina snails, 20-30 Sakura and some CRS along with 1 or 2 siamese algae eater. They did not do the work. You usually see their cleaning activity, but this is not happened this time.

Tank parameters:

90x45x45 180L
Lighting: 4*39W ATI 7hrs a day
Substrate: ADA Amazonia with Power Sand Spec
CO2: Pressurized with ADA Beetle CO2 diffuser
Filtration: EHEIM 2075 (1250lph) full with bio filter media and 250ml Purigen
Water parameters: pH 6.3-6.5, TDS 120-140ppm, temp 22-24 celsius
Fertilizers: ADA Brigthy K 10ml/day, ADA Step 2 10ml/day, KH2PO4 a little spoon every day.
Water change 40% per week

So after the 1st week i see the following:

The tank is perfect clear in the past few days. So whatever we had is cleaned up fully. Purigen not helped as water changes too. I guess this is happened because of the extra oxygen this device provide.
Algae on the front parvula mini carpet disappeared. Only left a little next to the front glass. Where the water flow is week and the substrate is not clean. guess i had to suck it down at the upcoming water change.
Dragon stones cleared up. No green dot algae at all. The little we had disappeared.
Surface is cleaner. I fully removed the Eheim Skim. As the algae is going away this is normal that the surface gets cleaner too.
Fishes feels better. They swim more and they enjoy the cloud which is coming out from Twinstar.
We had a little algae on the tenellus. This is completely disappeared.
Cyano BGA partly died, but then this come back the next day because the powerful lights. All BGA looked like dying. Just like we would handle them with H2O2 or Easy Carbo. 
Unfortunatelly BGA is still there as the HC carpet lifting off from the substrate. So there i do not think this will die unless we remove the floating carpet piece and suck it down with a tube and replant the carpet.
Plants grows a little better/quicker. See the comparison shot below especially in the background, but HC is also grown faster
In overall we're very impressed by the effect of this product. Did a lot of work in one week to make this tank looks clear and healthy.

Twinstar won the 1st week for sure.

As i see in our operating hours the device turns on for 15 sec approx at a time. And the bubbles clean up in 30-45 secs fully from the tank. This turns on in every 10-30 minutes approx.
You almost forget this after a few days as this works automatically in 24 hours a day.

I have to add that this is an expensive bit of kit, and not solve all problems. But even for experienced guys like me could cause a surprise. 
I am not here to promote/sell/advertise this item. But there's only a very limited information on this device especially on the usage. So i am sharing this just like as a hobbyist like you.
Tests not ending here. We wait for the next week. And if all will turn to wrong or not 

Plant growth example:

Rotala Wallichii grown a lot - this is a slow grower usually. HC leafs are larger and looks more healthy. The new Rotala specie is also grown a lot!
I see this like 30% extra growth in the past week approx.


Twinstar Nano by viktorlantos, on Flickr


Twinstar after 1st week by viktorlantos, on Flickr

On the glass you can see some algae green dust as we have lot of lights and 1-2 days missed from the fertilizer program this week.

Twinstar in work. Yes it is getting some algae on it just liek a CO2 diffuser. I already see this on macro lens.


Twinstar after 1st week by viktorlantos, on Flickr


Twinstar after 1st week by viktorlantos, on Flickr


Twinstar after 1st week by viktorlantos, on Flickr

Tank shot after 1 week


Twinstar after 1st week by viktorlantos, on Flickr


Twinstar after 1st week by viktorlantos, on Flickr


Twinstar after 1st week by viktorlantos, on Flickr


----------



## Yo-han

Do you know anything more about the technology? Do you smell ozone or is it indeed some plasma ion tech like I mentioned before?


----------



## virgojavier

Can you hear any sound comming out of it while it's workin?


----------



## tim

Nice review viktor, I really wanna know how this works.


----------



## Andy Thurston

Chinese vodoo magic


----------



## viktorlantos

Yo-han said:


> Do you know anything more about the technology? Do you smell ozone or is it indeed some plasma ion tech like I mentioned before?


 
No smell at all



virgojavier said:


> Can you hear any sound comming out of it while it's workin?


 
No sound. Either from the IC and the diffuser too



tim said:


> Nice review viktor, I really wanna know how this works.


 
me too. 

The sterilizing power is a bit quicker than UV at least this has cleared up the tank cloudiness in 2 days. But even after 1st day the tank was clear it just got clearer for the 2nd day.


----------



## viktorlantos

I even can think that the tank got a big oxygen boost (and the filter bacteria too) and since we added in a lot of oxygen the filter worked much more efficient than before. That's why the algae disappeared quicker than normally with an algae crew.
But honestly i do not have a clue.  Now the tank looks gin clear but maybe this is visible on the photo too. Like i would use a large amount of Carbon and Purigen together


----------



## ghostsword

Interesting product.. I still do not understand how it works.. 

If adding o2 helps why not just had a air pump?


----------



## tim

I'm convinced added oxygen can help, not sure I could afford to add this to my list of equipment though.


----------



## George Farmer

Thanks for the comprehensive post Viktor. Very interesting product. 

I wonder if they'll develop an inline version!


----------



## Ian Holdich

So, is it actually a purifier/ozone? If so you'd need to be careful of the amount of time it needs to be on or you'll have dead fish. Have you been doing less water changes Viktor? 


If it is ozone, the reefers have been using these for quite sometime.


----------



## foxfish

Thank you Victor, after pages & pages of negative comments we are getting closer to the true effects or this device, I am very tempted to buy one myself!
I would really like to here a clear explanation of how it works but, anyway it does seem to work!.


----------



## George Farmer

I have to say, if I were plagued with algae and all else failed (addressing lighting, CO2, circulation, maintenance, ferts) then I would buy one.  

It maybe hard to find how it works in fear of 3rd party rip-offs.


----------



## viktorlantos

ghostsword said:


> If adding o2 helps why not just had a air pump?



Simple air pumps with air diffusers just not enough good i guess. This stuff generate a cloud almost no bubbles, so the gas escaping slowly.

But where filters used with oxygen - Tom Barr using this way a while ago if i am right, you can push the limits more with light and co2 and the filter works more efficient - algae has less chances. 

This does not mean it is oxygen or i understand how this device works


----------



## viktorlantos

foxfish said:


> Thank you Victor, after pages & pages of negative comments we are getting closer to the true effects or this device, I am very tempted to buy one myself!
> I would really like to here a clear explanation of how it works but, anyway it does seem to work!.



I had a nice talk with Dave Chow about the device in Japan and based on that i felt i have to try it. He is a person who knows exactly how a planted aquarium had to work and his tests and observations were right.

Still need more time and different scenarios to tell 100% that it works but 1st week is promising


----------



## Gary Nelson

An interesting read, and it looks and sounds like its delivering the goods - still quite pricey though


----------



## tim

Maybe the sochting oxydator would have a similar effect.


----------



## Andy Thurston

£130 is a lot of cash to spend on algae I havn't got. I still think its an ozone machine with its own fancy controller and this is why the manufacturer is being so cagey about how it works.


----------



## macek.g

I think it Twinstar negative ion generator, and such seems to me that at low voltages generated by the use of special electrodes (in this case the two nets)?

maybe something like

Plasmacluster


----------



## foxfish

Big clown said:


> £130 is a lot of cash to spend on algae I havn't got. I still think its an ozone machine with its own fancy controller and this is why the manufacturer is being so cagey about how it works.


 I thought they were over £200?


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside

foxfish said:


> I thought they were over £200?




Twinstar antialgae - Aquarium shrimps plants aquascaping London


----------



## TimT

viktorlantos said:


> The sterilizing power is a bit quicker than UV at least this has cleared up the tank cloudiness in 2 days. But even after 1st day the tank was clear it just got clearer for the 2nd day.


Cool! That is quick. The high price might still make this interesting for aquarium clubs (sorry if the that is the wrong term), They could share one and just pass it around to members if they get into trouble and don't have access to Ceg's advice


----------



## Tim Harrison

Sounds like an ozone generator to me...
increased clarity due to oxidized organics
increased dissolved oxygen levels improving fish heath
disinfecting qualities destroying algae etc on contact. 
There are much cheaper options on the market...


----------



## Andy Thurston

Troi said:


> Sounds like an ozone generator to me...
> increased clarity due to oxidized organics
> increased dissolved oxygen levels improving fish heath
> disinfecting qualities destroying algae etc on contact.
> There are much cheaper options on the market...


Thats why the makers don't want to tell you how it works.
Any reefers got an ozone machine to try in a planted tank?


----------



## ghostsword

viktorlantos said:


> But where filters used with oxygen - Tom Barr using this way a while ago if i am right, you can push the limits more with light and co2 and the filter works more efficient - algae has less chances.
> 
> This does not mean it is oxygen or i understand how this device works


 
Yes, I found out that a air pump in the tank at night helped a lot with clarity and condition of the tanks.. So we not sure how this works, just that it does?


----------



## ghostsword

Big clown said:


> Thats why the makers don't want to tell you how it works.
> Any reefers got an ozone machine to try in a planted tank?


 


TMC has one.. 
TMC V2 Ozone Generator


----------



## ghostsword

Good place to try it would be in the large Pet's at home tank, the one with cloudiness..


----------



## ghostsword

Sorry for so many posts.. but finding information about this ozone.. I did not look at it before, thought this product was another gymmic.. The idea is not new.. it has been used in reefs for a while now..
Ozone and the Reef Aquarium, Part 1: Chemistry and Biochemistry by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

This was interesting..
_*Ammonia*_​Another of ozone's potential reactions and its byproducts with inorganic compounds in seawater is with ammonia. In fact, ozone is quite effective at converting ammonia into nitrate. The reaction is fast enough that if sufficient ammonia is present in seawater, it will happen preferentially to reactions that lead to bromate.3,12,13 An intermediate species in the process is bromamine (the bromine equivalent of chloramine), but fortunately (because it is toxic) it usually is further oxidized to bromide and nitrate.
BrOH + NH3 à NH2Br​NH2Br + O3 + 2OH- à NO3- + Br- + 2H2O​Presumably it is not harmful, and may be beneficial to reduce the ammonia to nitrate more rapidly. It may lead to higher nitrate concentrations in the aquarium, however, and may also lead to a different ratio of nitrogen export via different mechanisms because some methods (such as growing some species of macroalgae) prefer ammonia over nitrate.


_*Iron*_​*Iron* can be present in two primary forms in seawater: ferric ion (Fe+++) and ferrous ion (Fe++). Ferric ion is the more stable form in oxygenated seawater, but ferrous forms may remain for a substantial period before being oxidized to ferric ion. The ferrous form is more readily taken up by many organisms (including people), partly because it is more soluble and partly due to biological membrane transport mechanisms. But many organisms can convert ferric ion into ferrous ion on their surfaces just as they are taking it up, so the importance of the exact form is not entirely clear. I dose ferrous ion when adding iron to my aquarium.
Ozone can readily convert ferrous ion into ferric ion.14-16 That oxidation may, in fact, be part of what is actually measured in seawater's ORP changes. The conversion may be even faster for complexed ferrous ion than for free ferrous ions in seawater, and the complexing to organics may be able to keep the ferric iron in solution even after oxidation.17
Finally, ozone may serve to break iron free from very strong complexes in which it is not readily bioavailable. *Iron EDTA complexes*, for example, may require photolytic cleavage to become bioavailable in aquaria without ozone, and oxidation of the complex with ozone may serve a similar purpose.


----------



## ghostsword

Found this in ZA.. so will try it.. They use it here for disinfecting food and water..
http://www.ozogen.co.za/Instruction%20leaflet%20OzoPure%2001.pdf




*OzoPure - Home Multi-Use *- This unit is designed for home use to sanitise air, water and for basic treatments. The unit comes complete with tubing and diffuser stones. High ozone output with the ability to cycle on and off according to selected timer settings.​*Ozone output: *Max 500 mg/hr​*Recommended Retail: *R1482 inclusive of VAT​


----------



## ian_m

ghostsword said:


> Yes, I found out that a air pump in the tank at night helped a lot with clarity and condition of the tanks.. So we not sure how this works, just that it does?


I have found this as well, lot clearer water after running air at night. I suspect though, all it does is create different flow and circulation in the tank allowing any accumulated detritus to taken out by the filtration.


----------



## Iain Sutherland

Interesting read and nice to see a review viktor, please keep us informed as time goes on.
Would like to know if its effective with BBA also....


----------



## viktorlantos

Iain Sutherland said:


> Interesting read and nice to see a review viktor, please keep us informed as time goes on.
> Would like to know if its effective with BBA also....


 
Based on the product info this isn't good for green water and brush algae.
For many it is including hair, fuzz, bga, gda, dust


----------



## viktorlantos

ghostsword said:


> Good place to try it would be in the large Pet's at home tank, the one with cloudiness..


 
Would be nice  This little device is limited to use on a specific tank size only.
For example the one we're using the Nano model is not suitable for small size aquarium and large one over 250L
The largest Twinstar handles 350L max as i see.


----------



## ghostsword

viktorlantos said:


> Would be nice  This little device is limited to use on a specific tank size only.
> For example the one we're using the Nano model is not suitable for small size aquarium and large one over 250L
> The largest Twinstar handles 350L max as i see.


 

Get two or three..  but yes, I see what you mean..


----------



## Tim Harrison

I contacted some of the retailers, none of them know how it works and they just direct me to the marketing hyperbole...nevertheless they all state without exception - it is not an ozone generator...hmmm... more than a bit abstruse don't you think?...if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck!...


----------



## viktorlantos

Troi said:


> I contacted some of the retailers, none of them know how it works and they just direct me to the marketing hyperbole...nevertheless they all state without exception - it is not an ozone generator...hmmm... more than a bit abstruse don't you think?...if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck!...


 
or a roboduck!


----------



## viktorlantos

Troi said:


> I contacted some of the retailers, none of them know how it works and they just direct me to the marketing hyperbole...nevertheless they all state without exception - it is not an ozone generator...hmmm... more than a bit abstruse don't you think?...if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck!...


 
or a roboduck!


----------



## ghostsword

I am sure it is a ozone generator, as they are pretty common in the reef community to deal with the same issues..

I think that it is a good idea.. and it has been used for many years..


----------



## foxfish

Luis, I don't think you are right!
Twinstar is being discussed on numerous forums, ozone has a vey distinctive smell & one experienced ozone user is convinced that Twinstar is not producing ozone as he trapped some of the bubbles in a container & could not detect any smell!
However I have no idea if that is a fact, just quoting from another forum.


----------



## NatureBoy

looks like electrolysis of water


----------



## George Farmer

A colleague in the industry is also sure it isn't ozone.

They are hopefully getting one to test.  Apparently with two simple experiments they'll find out how it works for certain.

Unfortunately they won't tell me more than that, but if I find out more I'll let you know.


----------



## George Farmer

Could it be a fancy version of this from the 1970s?

Patent US3891535 - Aquarium water treatment apparatus - Google Patents


----------



## NatureBoy

George Farmer said:


> Could it be a fancy version of this from the 1970s?
> 
> Patent US3891535 - Aquarium water treatment apparatus - Google Patents


 
could well be, it's essentially electrolysis: from the inventor "
A related object of the present invention is to provide the apparatus for aerating water while sterilizing the water.
A further object of this present invention is to provide electrolysis equipment for use in sterilizing water, wherein the electrolysis equipment is resistant to residual insulation.
Yet another object of the present invention is to provide electrolysis equipment, wherein such equipment utilizes a change of polarity to prevent residual insulation.
Yet another object of this invention is to provide an aerating and circulating pump with no moving parts for use on fish ponds or aquariums.
Yet a further object of the invention is to provide low voltage, low current flow electrolysis equipment that can be used to both aerate and sterilize water to overcome pollution"

I wonder if twinstar is aware of the patent....


----------



## NatureBoy

...the reverse aspect is to stop it crustin up over time


----------



## NatureBoy

oh...more than a bit aware...could they now own the patent! definitely something has happened regarding interest in the invention...who are Qian Hu? I feel like Tin Tin
US5958196 * 22 Jan 1997 28 Sep 1999 Upscale Water Technologies, Inc. Planar carbon fiber and noble metal oxide electrodes and methods of making the same
WO2012161656A1 * 18 May 2012 29 Nov 2012 Qian Hu Corporation Limited Apparatus for purifying water in an aquarium


----------



## steveno

i have just notice that Freshwater shrimps are now selling these, £135 for mini version, another expensive bit of kit but very temped if it dose everything it claims to do, particularly if your a bit lazy with tank maintenance like i am

Not just inhabiting green algae growth, also improved plant growth by up to 50% and help prevents or kill fish disease, as advertise on their website.


----------



## steveno

On Freshwater shrimp it suggest the mini will accommodate up to 90l but on the twinstar website (user guide section) it suggest a mini will accommodate between 90l-120l?

Apologies, it is only the s model that prevents and kills fish disease.


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside

steveno said:


> On Freshwater shrimp it suggest the mini will accommodate up to 90l but on the twinstar website (user guide section) it suggest a mini will accommodate between 90l-120l?
> 
> Apologies, it is only the s model that prevents and kills fish disease.



I'd wait and see what comes out in the wash before you commit that amount of money to a Gimmick.


----------



## steveno

Prob. right, i got a drawer full of gadgets i brought over the last couple of years that seemed cool at the time,  i don't use anymore...


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





dw1305 said:


> The mechanism of action is that it produces chlorine from a chloride source (usually NaCl - dissociated as Na+ Cl- ions, but they can be at low concentrations) via a platinum electrode set. You can also produce ozone, oxygen and hydrogen peroxide via electrolysis.


 It doesn't need to produce ozone (O3), the bubbles may well be oxygen (O2).  If you have a look at Viktor's photo, as he says you can see filamentous green algae beginning to grow on the edge of the unit, and I just can't see how it can work against green algae. If it is producing oxygen, fine, but low oxygen levels aren't a problem that many planted tank keepers struggle with.  





cheers Darrel


----------



## Tim Harrison

Either way, amongst a thinking community like ours all this cloak and dagger stuff is perhaps more than a little counter productive...since most of us are quite rightly cautious about what we introduce to our aquariums for obvious reasons.
Quite evidently it's got to the stage where we need to know exactly what it is and how it works before we take it completely seriously and consider purchasing it. It could be as revolutionary as the manufacturers claim but we're not going to know for sure until - like George says - someone reverse engineers it or the manufacturers come clean. Until then I'll continue to treat it with a healthy dose of cynicism/scepticism...I don't invest in blind faith.
Just as an aside...I'm sure ozone is an odourless and colourless gas, so smell is not really a reliable diagnostic test...


----------



## Yo-han

Troi said:


> Either way, amongst a thinking community like ours all this cloak and dagger stuff is perhaps more than a little counter productive...since most of us are quite rightly cautious about what we introduce to our aquariums for obvious reasons.
> Quite evidently it's got to the stage where we need to know exactly what it is and how it works before we take it completely seriously and consider purchasing it. It could be as revolutionary as the manufacturers claim but we're not going to know for sure until - like George says - someone reverse engineers it or the manufacturers come clean. Until then I'll continue to treat it with a healthy dose of cynicism/scepticism...I don't invest in blind faith.
> Just as an aside...I'm sure ozone is an odourless and colourless gas, so smell is not really a reliable diagnostic test...



Being sceptical is always good. But just keep saying it is an ozone generator without having any evidence is useless. Ozone has a distinct smell and is not odourless, it is clear to light blue, so easily analysed just by smelling or collecting the gas and analyzing it. A company can choose to give little information about the product, but they already stated it is no ozone generator. They would be really stupid to lie, and no company would risk that if it is that easy to prove wrong. 

I know the results are the same as ozone, but so is H2O2 and so is UV, does this make it an UV unit? H2O2 is most likely IMO. Produced by electrolysis. This makes sense with what they told about plasma technology. Plasma Electrolytic Oxidation would be very plausible with all experiences so far IMO.


----------



## Tim Harrison

Hi Yo-han, OK fair one with regards the smell and colour, as per usual I had another blond moment. But aside from my initial opinion - which may well be wrong - I'm just curious to know how it works before I consider buying one...as I am sure many others are too...
As for the modus operandi of the manufacturers that's a completely different matter and I'm afraid I don't share your faith.


----------



## Tim Harrison

At the risk of appearing even blonder..I'm not sure whether its the process of O3 generation that causes the colour and the smell rather than the actual gas itself?


----------



## Yo-han

Troi said:


> At the risk of appearing even blonder..I'm not sure whether its the process of O3 generation that causes the colour and the smell rather than the actual gas itself?



The gas itself


----------



## alanyusupov

TwinStar works by eliminating micro algae spores ...
The device uses technology to create micro-bubbles that destroy the cell wall of the algae in the end they can not grow. This technology is non-toxic and harmless for aerobic bacteria.
The device is effective against, thread, brown, Xenia, blue-green ... But does not help in the fight with a beard and algal blooms.
Use only in freshwater aquariums.


----------



## alanyusupov




----------



## Yo-han

Why only freshwater?


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Yo-han said:


> Why only freshwater?


 Assuming it is electrolysis I think it is probably to do with the conductivity of the solution. 





alanyusupov said:


> The device uses technology to create micro-bubbles that destroy the cell wall of the algae in the end they can not grow. This technology is non-toxic and harmless for aerobic bacteria. The device is effective against, thread, brown, Xenia, blue-green ... But does not help in the fight with a beard and algal blooms.


 OK there is quite a lot of scientific work on micro and nano bubbles ("Principle and applications of microbubble and nanobubble technology for water treatment" < Principle and applications of microbubble and nanobubble technology for water treatment >). That would also account for the high cost of the unit, and why it wears out, in both cases because of the erosion of the platinum/palladium electrode set.

I still can't see why you would want it, but I can't see the point of purigen either, so may be it is just me.

cheers Darrel


----------



## viktorlantos

Ok got some additional info on this from Twinstar

"The product is need to maintenace if cable and case be polluted by algea. You product is old version, we change product design and to protect mesh from Ca+. I will give you infromation with picture.
This product has life span. Life span is over 6 month like UV lamp. It normally use 12 month but we guarantee 6 months"

So the diffusers / electrode parts need to be replaced timely. Dave also mentioned this to me in Japan. He also recommended 12 month approx.


----------



## virgojavier

Found this on one of the forums:

Q1. It's ozone generator?

It is not ozonizer. If you want to test, please smell it when TWINSTAR is operating in aqarium.
There is nothing to smell.

Q2. tell me how exactly does it work,I have M1 turned on and there is a cloud dust for about 1min. and then it stop completely?

One min is normal operation and operating algorithm is not fixed for 1 step to 3 step.

We designed that the product is being changed to operate interval at generating bubble
beause condition of occuring algae is different after setting aquarium.

What do you mean that cloud dust is bubble ?
If so, Clould dust is 99.9% of exygen.

Difference between M1 and M2 is capacity.
Capacity of M1 is for about 45cube, and M2 is 200L.

Basically, there are a lot of environments of aquarium that are varied depending on the users and also there are many reasons why Green algae occurs.
Before going into the details, it is necessary to understand why the Green algae occur in the aquarium. Green algae are excessive carbon dioxide (CO2) that artificially supply fertilizer ingredient including surplus nitrogen, phosphorus from soil and light. This serves as a supplier who makes the environment for algae to occur. Consumer will be water plant and green algae.
If water plant absorbs provided nourishment 100%, it will be the most idealistic environment where the Green algae don’t occur.
If you look at the initial environment after setting aquarium, water plants a bit slowly take root in the ground after planting rather than growing actively and then absorb the nutrient. However, initially nitrogen and phosphorus in soil are the most and they will be released excessively into the water.
Although there are a lot of nutrients, the amount of waterweed’s nutrient absorption are not enough. For that reason, Green algae occur. (If you provide strong lights and enough CO2 from the beginning, Heir green algae may appear before and after 15 days. Heir green algae occur when nutrients are abundant.) At this point, experienced aquarists normally increase water changing amount to keep the balance, or reduce lights, or try to prevent Green algae by putting Yamato shrimp, dozens of fish which eat Green algae.
Even if new water plants seem clean with your bare eyes, you can’t see the minute green algae attached on water plants. Therefore, we recommend putting some Yamato shrimp to prevent their growing. With only ‘TWINSTAR’, you cannot remove the green algae.
With enough light and nutrient, and CO2, water plants can take roots in 45 days and fully grow (demand increase period). Along with the growth of water plant, nitrogen and phosphorus from soil will be run low. If you plant a number of Stem plant, aquarium environment will start to change from 60 to 90 days. The biggest change is a lack of nitrogen and phosphorus. When nitrogen and phosphorus run short, Green algae will grow on a glass wall of aquarium. In case of a lack of light, Brown algae might grow usually.
As mentioned above, environments of aquarium continue to change, and coping methods should be varied with them.
Lastly, depending on the kind of water plants nutrients, speed and amount of nutrient uptake rate are different. Hemianthus callitrichoides “Cuba” grow slowly and nutrient absorption is very low. However, Glossostigma elatinoioles absorb a lot of nutrients and grow quickly. If you plant both two water plants in the same condition, Green algae will grow more in Cuba planted aquarium.
Like IWAGUMY, if a lot of CUBA is planted with lots of stones layout, it will become Hard water with water pH. Consumer cannot do its role, so green algae will be likely to grow more and more.
In conclusion, the effect of TWINSTAR depends on which water plants you plant and how to manage them. In case of 90cmX45cmX45cm size water tank, we recommend putting 3 Yamato Shrimp and 3 fish which eat green algae because they will act as the buffer in various conditions to maintain a constant effect.
Judging from that you didn’t mention about the effect of Heir green algae, we think that you didn’t test Twinstar with new setting. Also you didn’t mention Growth of plant, so please try to set again and check.
For your reference, you cannot expect the effect of Growth of plant from the aquarium over 30days. It is related to Law of minimum or Liebig’s law.
TWINSTAR mini has 1 operating mode, it is designed 90~120L size fish tank to prevent green algae from occurring in waterplant. TWINSTAR NANO model has 2 operating modes, Mode 1 is for 90~120L size, Mode2 is for 180~240L size. Super S is designed to keep aquarium fish from disease and it can prevent any diseases of fish in 300L~400L size aquarium. Mini S is the purpose of disease prevention in 120L aquarium.
Plus we attached bloggers’ review from their blog so please refer to it.


Effect on kind of algae
- Hair/Thread algae : 95%
- Brown Algae : 90%
- Blue green : 80%
- Fuzz algae : 80%
- Green Dust algae :80%
- Green spot : 85%
No effect
- Black brush / Beard


Regards
Lukasz


----------



## ghostsword

Odd their take on light, nutrients and co2 as the reason for algae.

If this is not an ozone generator, then it looks like another gimmick. Micro bubbles? Use a high powered pump to push bubbles through an atomic ceramic diffuser.


----------



## viktorlantos

12 days result....

Today we reached the 12 days operation. It is strage that almost ALL algae disappeared from the tank, but we had a little bacterial film on the glass (like with new tanks) and some green algae. On the plants and the decor just the opposite.

I did a regular weekly water change and cleaned the glass. Last week i sucked down the BGA and looks like this is not coming back. So its better in prevention then attack with BGA.

*Where we started and how this looks now.*

Start 12 days before. Algae on the parvula. Algae on the tenellus. Green algae on the dragon stone. BGA on the left side of the floating HC carpet.


Twinstar Nano by viktorlantos, on Flickr


Twinstar Nano by viktorlantos, on Flickr

Only 1 week later. Water bcome crystal clear. Most of the algae is disappearing from the carpet and the tenellus. Stems growing quicker. Than usual.


Twinstar after 1st week by viktorlantos, on Flickr


Twinstar after 1st week by viktorlantos, on Flickr

This is how it looks now after 12 days. Check the tenellus, the parvula the background stems growth rate. BGA is not coming back but still there'S a little below the HC carpet.

Dragon stones looks like new!  Even in the holes no algae at all!


Twinstar after 12 days of operation. by viktorlantos, on Flickr

Just like previous posts the diffuser, tubing gets algae like before. You need to do water change this stuff will not solve it for you. Twinstar get less algae than diffuser, but slowly get some especially on the case not the mesh.

I not used any Easy Carbo, H2O2, Algexit and other algecid. Not removed any algae by hose, brush.

Used Brigthy K and Step 2 daily 10-10ml. And dosed ECA every other day. 20 drops.

2 water changes in the past 12 days 30-40% avg with pure RO and used Salty Shrimp GH booster like before to reach 120-140ppm.


----------



## viktorlantos

I think 3 things which was a nice effect for me.

1.The stones get cleaned. It's so hard to clean these damn stones. If you brush it this fall apart.
2.The water become clear. Cloud disappeared.
3. I did not had to trim down the bushy plants what i would do usually with this much infection. So the 2-3 month old bushy tennelus survived without loosing a single leaf which is a nice thing


----------



## foxfish

I think it is worth the money just for the beautiful smoky effect!


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## NatureBoy

viktorlantos said:


> I think 3 things which was a nice effect for me.
> 
> 1.The stones get cleaned. It's so hard to clean these damn stones. If you brush it this fall apart.
> 2.The water become clear. Cloud disappeared.
> 3. I did not had to trim down the bushy plants what i would do usually with this much infection. So the 2-3 month old bushy tennelus survived without loosing a single leaf which is a nice thing


Hi Viktor

problem is with all this is that you are already an awesome scaper and there are many factors that are contributing to the success in this tank.

so it's a bit like the "stone" soup story...how could a soup made from a stone taste so good?


----------



## viktorlantos

NatureBoy said:


> so it's a bit like the "stone" soup story...how could a soup made from a stone taste so good?


 
It's true. I am learning to be a chef  Still far to be Jamie Oliver though 

But the product not promising for you that you can do soup with almost any ingredients.
This state that you need to use the necessary ingredients, but if you do so the cooking will be a little more fun than usual 

To test it with an expert is a good idea actually. As we all know how much time an algae need to cure. What to use etc. How the plant growth in average in that specific tank. So there are many advantage if a pro test a kit like this.

I would not like to defend the product. I am not the owner, inventor etc. Just shared it as the first demo in a matured tank had a visible effect.

But it is important that the product not promise miracle. You still need your filter, light, CO2, cleaning crew, fertilizers, water changes and a good balance in your environment.
But there are still many factors which plays when you're on the right way.

Maybe just a pinch of salt missed from the whole soup to be perfect. Who knows


----------



## Tim Harrison

Why is it that every nation is far better at poetical analogies than we are here in good ol' blighty? Viktor I've no idea how good you are as a cook but you seem to know your way around a planted tank so your observations are very persuasive ...but I'd still like some more scientific background before I take the plunge and buy one...if only for novelty value


----------



## steveno

I was interested to see if it was cheapskate to buy aboard, which it is, and notice one of their Singapore distributor are selling a fifth model call SHIMP. Which like the s model supposedly prevents disease and survival rate of shrimp but for large tanks 120l. Given how precious some of these little critters are it could be one to consider. That is of cause if it dose what it says it dose. 

There quite a lot of scepticism given one body knows how it works, but viktor seems to be suggesting the nano model does what it says on the tin, so am considering, the only thing that's preventing me getting one is the cost and availability of replacement mesh plate. There doesn't seem to be any information regarding this anywhere. Wouldn't want to have to replace the whole devise each year.


----------



## steveno

Further post just now Apologies typing on my phone isn't my strong point I meant cheaper.


----------



## Piece-of-fish

Quite excited to try mine after Viktors posts. Got it lying around in the box for couple months already


----------



## Iain Sutherland

Piece-of-fish said:


> Quite excited to try mine after Viktors posts. Got it lying around in the box for couple months already


 
may as well give it to me to try then mate


----------



## ghostsword

Piece-of-fish said:


> Quite excited to try mine after Viktors posts. Got it lying around in the box for couple months already


OK, so Twinstar sent it to a few scapers? Good idea to try product in a professional way..

There are a couple of things to ask, especially regarding replacement parts.. how easy are to get them?


----------



## Andy D

Oliver Knott posted on Facebook that he has just got one and will be setting it up shortly.

Here - Oliver Knott - Just arrived for testing. Let's see how... | Facebook


----------



## viktorlantos

ghostsword said:


> OK, so Twinstar sent it to a few scapers? Good idea to try product in a professional way..
> 
> There are a couple of things to ask, especially regarding replacement parts.. how easy are to get them?



Easy to change the diffuser. Unplug the jack from the ic module and thats it. I tried another test today and faced with an interesting issue after a few hours. Seiryu looked like i would drop acid on it


----------



## Iain Sutherland

viktorlantos said:


> Easy to change the diffuser. Unplug the jack from the ic module and thats it. I tried another test today and faced with an interesting issue after a few hours. Seiryu looked like i would drop acid on it


Do you mean the seiryu was bubbling in the tank?! That doesn't sound good if so...


----------



## NatureBoy

Do you think it would work in tandem with this? Or would the science get confused Its a miracle! | UK Aquatic Plant Society


----------



## viktorlantos

Iain Sutherland said:


> Do you mean the seiryu was bubbling in the tank?! That doesn't sound good if so...



Not bubbling but seems like next to the device a small white patch appeared on the stone will show a photo later today.


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside




----------



## George Farmer

Nathaniel Whiteside said:


>



Hi Nathaniel

I have a huge amount of respect for Viktor (and Dave Chow) and believe this unit does something, even though we don't know how.

To post such a flippant insinuation is a little disrespectful to the work that Viktor has done and shared with us here on UKAPS.


----------



## foxfish

I know I am only repeating myself but I don't understand the negativity?
I love the though of 'anything' that will make our tanks more beautiful, the device does not seem to be some form of miracle maker but ... yeah it is something new in our hobby = great as far as I am concerned.


----------



## Gary Nelson

Very interesting to see Viktors results.... Anything that makes rocks come clean as well as some algae disappear is welcome in my tank!


----------



## ghostsword

viktorlantos said:


> Easy to change the diffuser. Unplug the jack from the ic module and thats it. I tried another test today and faced with an interesting issue after a few hours. Seiryu looked like i would drop acid on it




 I meant how easy is to buy the diffuser, or should there not be a need to replace it?


----------



## ghostsword

foxfish said:


> I know I am only repeating myself but I don't understand the negativity?
> I love the though of 'anything' that will make our tanks more beautiful, the device does not seem to be some form of miracle maker but ... yeah it is something new in our hobby = great as far as I am concerned.




I don't think the issue is negativity.. more trying to figure out what is actually doing.. 

This is a community of people that like to know how things work... from ferts to co2, we ask and try to figure out how it works..

So it is not an ozone maker.. is it a o2 diffuser? No idea.. so people will continue to ask questions, and while some may buy and try it, I would think that the community at large will keep away..


----------



## George Farmer

Interesting point, Luis.

Personally I'm prepared to try new stuff without fully understanding it.

Heck, I still don't fully understand so much about this amazing hobby. That's a massive part of its appeal for me and certainly nothing to be fearful of.

I thank folk like Viktor for trying out kit like this and sharing their experiences in an objective and constructive manner.


----------



## NatureBoy

George Farmer said:


> Hi Nathaniel
> 
> I have a huge amount of respect for Viktor (and Dave Chow) and believe this unit does something, even though we don't know how.
> 
> To post such a flippant insinuation is a little disrespectful to the work that Viktor has done and shared with us here on UKAPS.


 
It's tricky to find a balance, I personally feel we are being manipulated. Indirectly, for sure, but ultimately being subjected to the baddest of bad science. Companies target figureheads of communities to make it difficult to be skeptical without inadvertently disrespecting the figurehead, it's marketing we are seeing here.

General consumers are what twinstar are interested in. look on youtube you'll see about 10 immaculate scapes, all the consumer will see is wow to get that I've just got to buy the gadget, that's the link that is being created here. All the scapers so far targeted have one thing in common: zero issues with maintenance they cannot go about fixing, with or without another article.


----------



## Andy D

Where's Clive when you need him...


----------



## George Farmer

Good points, NatureBoy. 

What I see is an interesting product that seems have some benefits. Sure, we've only seen them on nice scapes so far, but it's still useful to see. 

But yes, it is clever marketing also.


----------



## viktorlantos

Ok guys Test 2 since the other test passed with 100% success in 2 weeks! I decided to start a new one today.

We have a fresh tank which is 3 weeks old now. This tank is just getting cycled in so some starter issue is almost there. Right time to do another test.

Tank size: 90x45x45
Filtration: Eheim Prof 3 2075 (1250lph)
Pressurized CO2 with ADA Beetle diffuser
Substrate: ADA Africana, ADA Colorado Sand
Fertilizers: Daily 10ml Brighty K and Brighty Step 2
Water change 40-50% weekly with pure RO. not adding back any minerals because of the massive stone setup
Water temp: 22-24 celsius
Lighting: ADA Solar I - Green bulb 7hrs a day

Here is the starter issue and the current situation.

The Seiryu got green algae on the 3rd week. Was fully clean for the first 2 weeks.
Sand gets some algae too. And i see some BGA in the sandbad.

Normally i would not worry. I would do the regular maintenance. Would brush the stones the first time. Suck down the algae from the sand and would inject some Easy Carbo to the sand next to the front glass (right side)

But let's see what happens if we drop in the Twinstar. No carbo no manual removal, no brushing

Installed it at the end of the day today. So i had 2 hours to watch it. After 2 hours i see the following picture


TWINSTAR TEST 2 - 90x45x45 - Day 1 by viktorlantos, on Flickr

Here is the full shot to see the stones without the mark.


TWINSTAR TEST 2 - 90x45x45 - Day 1 by viktorlantos, on Flickr

As you can see the closest stones get cleaned up. The current is a bit slower on this tank then the other, so i do not see the fog flying around that quick.

Since things happen so quickly you feels that your eyes are messing with you. Shortly after the installation you start to see that the stones getting cleaner. The above photo happened after 2 hours of operation.
I've seen some white patches which is close to the Twinstar. like a Calcium thing. Like the fog made a reaction with the stone. But i almost sitted the diffuser on the stones there. So a few centimeters next to the stones. I've seen similar errosion when we added a little more acid to our manten stones.

In high resolution you can see that white patch on the rock middle of the marked area.
All sizes | TWINSTAR TEST 2 - 90x45x45 - Day 1 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

So i am looking forward if all my stones will be white for tomorrow  and will do a winter scape or is this only an accident somehow


----------



## ghostsword

NatureBoy said:


> It's tricky to find a balance, I personally feel we are being manipulated. Indirectly, for sure, but ultimately being subjected to the baddest of bad science. Companies target figureheads of communities to make it difficult to be skeptical without inadvertently disrespecting the figurehead, it's marketing we are seeing here.
> 
> General consumers are what twinstar are interested in. look on youtube you'll see about 10 immaculate scapes, all the consumer will see is wow to get that I've just got to buy the gadget, that's the link that is being created here. All the scapers so far targeted have one thing in common: zero issues with maintenance they cannot go about fixing, with or without another article.




Yep.. I am sure the consumers will think that what they see can be replicated with this tool..  

Now, although we don't know 100% how everything works in a tank we have to agree that we are close to it.. at least we have an idea how it works..

Not so with this tool.. those bubbles, what are they, for example.. co2? O2? Ozone? 

 

Hard to take the reply "it just works"... we were not brought up like that at ukaps... question everything, till it makes sense


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside

George Farmer said:


> Hi Nathaniel
> 
> I have a huge amount of respect for Viktor (and Dave Chow) and believe this unit does something, even though we don't know how.
> 
> To post such a flippant insinuation is a little disrespectful to the work that Viktor has done and shared with us here on UKAPS.



Hello George,

It was intended to be light hearted banter, more so in response to NatureBoys Link to Ian holdiches topic on 'the silver Bullet'.

I too regard victor as an exceptional aquarist. One of the best on this forum.
And I do not doubt his findings either, as the results are clearly showing something is happening, and his tests seem  methodical. 

I believe the product produces a likeness in results to the use of Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2).

Cheers,
N


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside

ghostsword said:


> Yep.. I am sure the consumers will think that what they see can be replicated with this tool..
> 
> Now, although we don't know 100% how everything works in a tank we have to agree that we are close to it.. at least we have an idea how it works..
> 
> Not so with this tool.. those bubbles, what are they, for example.. co2? O2? Ozone?
> 
> 
> 
> Hard to take the reply "it just works"... we were not brought up like that at ukaps... question everything, till it makes sense



The Twinstar manufacturers obviously have something to hide in terms of what is actually happening inside the unit. I would personally find this an insult, if I had purchased the Unit.

The views that 'they could be withholding information to prevent copycat production' doesn't really cut it with me. 

I believe the real reason, although I don't know the science Of it all, is to cover up the huge amount of markup the company is making on a relatively simple and inexpensive piece of kit.


----------



## Piece-of-fish

In all history the majority of the ordinary crowd were in DENIAL with new things. Its ok people, its quite common for us mortals.
Only the bravest made there ways  while the rest were sleeping.
There are many more ways to make money than selling snake oils these days and people feel very well when they are sold something what does not work and wont come back to the seller and even worth spread the word online. So what on earth some of you here are talking about when you have not even a smallest clue about it? Why dont you just get over it?
Sorry if I have offended someone.


----------



## Piece-of-fish

Mine is in...


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside

Piece-of-fish said:


> In all history the majority of the ordinary crowd were in DENIAL with new things. Its ok people, its quite common for us mortals.
> Only the bravest made there ways  while the rest were sleeping.
> There are many more ways to make money than selling snake oils these days and people feel very well when they are sold something what does not work and wont come back to the seller and even worth spread the word online. So what on earth some of you here are talking about when you have not even a smallest clue about it? Why dont you just get over it?
> Sorry if I have offended someone.




Nobody is saying it doesn't work. Why don't you read above post?  It VERY CLEARLY works in Viktors eyes and others. 

It's the fact we want to know what's going on. 

Call it inquisition.  Call it trying to understand what it is actually doing to the water In our aquariums, so we can learn what's happening and why it's having such a positive effect on nuisance algae. We can Then take this logic and apply, to improve our pretty little tanks even further.


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside

Oh and by the way, the snake oil picture posting was a joke. 

Why so serious?


----------



## alanyusupov

All of this plants started to grow better after I've started to use Twinstar
This is in fact.

Aquatank - Rare Aquarium Plants | Facebook







Regards
Alan


----------



## steveno

has anyone found anything about replace parts, given unit has shelf life, will the whole unit need replacing or just the disc...


----------



## viktorlantos

I had a thought today that it would be nice to have someone open the diffuser and the IC like what is happening with Apple's new phone all the time.
So it would be visible what is inside. I am short on stock  So who will open up the item?


----------



## alanyusupov

viktorlantos said:


> I had a thought today that it would be nice to have someone open the diffuser and the IC like what is happening with Apple's new phone all the time.
> So it would be visible what is inside. I am short on stock  So who will open up the item?


 
That what I was thinking, but didn't comment it. 

Regards
Alan


----------



## viktorlantos

steveno said:


> has anyone found anything about replace parts, given unit has shelf life, will the whole unit need replacing or just the disc...


 
I think i pasted this earlier.

The diffuser what you have in the tank need to be replaced after 6-12 months.
The replaceable unit has a jack plug and you can connect it to the IC controller easily.
No need to screw etc. Just unplug the jack with the old diffuser from the IC and plug in the new one.
The cost is not cheap somewhere around 50USD or so.


----------



## steveno

viktorlantos said:


> I think i pasted this earlier.
> 
> The diffuser what you have in the tank need to be replaced after 6-12 months.
> The replaceable unit has a jack plug and you can connect it to the IC controller easily.
> No need to screw etc. Just unplug the jack with the old diffuser from the IC and plug in the new one.
> The cost is not cheap somewhere around 50USD or so.



Thxs viktor, 50usd dosen't sound to bad, If it's only yearly... Guess you would need to contact the malufacturer directly for replacement. Give the results you've had, I might take the plunge and get me self one... btw thanks for the reviews you provided. I dont know how it works but the same could be said for many things, all that matter is it works. 

 Was also looking at some of your scape a moment ago, simplely amazing!


----------



## Piece-of-fish

Nathaniel Whiteside said:


> Nobody is saying it doesn't work. Why don't you read above post? It VERY CLEARLY works in Viktors eyes and others.
> 
> It's the fact we want to know what's going on.
> 
> Call it inquisition. Call it trying to understand what it is actually doing to the water In our aquariums, so we can learn what's happening and why it's having such a positive effect on nuisance algae. We can Then take this logic and apply, to improve our pretty little tanks even further.


I did not complain about people saying it does not work. I am fed up about people calling it snake oil or anything else really and even more about people saying shops are trying to sell snake oils. That is was what it read.
Sorry if I got it wrong.


----------



## Piece-of-fish

Why I cannot edit the post  shows blank field when trying to edit.


----------



## viktorlantos

I really do not know how long this stuff will live or will spread around the hobby. Maybe other "stars" will appear shortly and we just realize they are in every store around us just like the UV or Ozone, aquarium computers.
Shortly will have ANSStars and GUSHStars too 

The full topic is about accepting or not accepting a product which has or not has some effect on some of our issues.
I also seen similar feedback on our boards when i shared the experiences. This is ok of course.
We're different, and honestly it's not too smart to run to a shop to buy any new thing because we see a photo of a tank which is getting nicer.  we're all smarter than that.
The smart thing is that now many different people testing this kit around the world so you see many different cases, tanks etc. Gets attention from other industry people too so might open up new areas too.

Why i do test it? Looks like fun 
Also i am open to any new thing. Love my pH computer and Profilux machine, love Purigen or some electronic filters like Fluval or the Eheim ones. VUPPA etc - actually an expensive Vuppa needed to have a cheap Eheim skim i guess 
New things are nice. Some of them maybe useful and will drive the hobby into a very different direction.

At some point i would be glad to fully throw out all algecide including carbo, H2O2 etc and use a device or 2 which helps on a different way.
Did you ever think about how much algecide we buy in a shop? I am working in a store. And you can't believe it. Almost as much as fertilizers.
Just to fight with algae, spot dose, prevent etc.

There are many different feedback like if a device clean the algae, the user will never learn the basics etc. Which is true. But we loose so many people in this hobby because they need aquariums like they see everywhere in the aquascaping scene, and they fail shortly as they do not have that time to go through on all the learning curves.

We're harder when we need to accept new things. But just look at the car industry. 20 years ago there was not any electronic guide, assistance. Now we drive with GPS and our car almost drive itself just to keep it on the road. Park assistance etc.
They are not evil just helps on some issues. And at the end your car wheels will not spin like mad, you will stay on road, speed is controlled etc and you can focus on many other things - hopefully not watching a TV meanwhile driving. 

But for the future the aquascaping hobby needs to be changed. Its not good that we need a board with hundredthousand topics and posts to read it to be smart enough to run a tank.

So many issues, so many problems, so many variants. Hard to give one perfect instruction to anyone. Some people just fight with the algae for months til they give up.They do not want to be a scientist or a biologist. They just need a nice scape, but never meet a beauty tank in their home. Our goal is not to fight with algae but to enjoy the scaping or the growing part or just watching the live interior decoration. Whatever makes it easy is a good thing.

Electric carpet trimmer? Auto filter cleaner? Soil refreshener? auto CO2 refiller? many stuff which would be nice 
I would not mind to not meet algae anymore. Would read a book how that looked in the past  or would tell a tale how the mighty Vik fight with diatom to my daughter.  meanwhile browsing my old flickr page for examples 

I would not like to be a promoter here. But i've read so many nice articles in the past from you guys on CO2 diffusers, EI fertilizers, TMC LEDs and LEDs at all before anyone used it for plants.
This is just another sharing thing. Take it easy and we will see what it does. Shortly we will see what is inside of these things, George mentioned that we may will have better understanding too on how this works from an expert. This is good.
Meanwhile we all learn and have fun.

I try to not spam this topic. So will wait another week or more to see what happen with my tank and will post it, but will not do other examples  There are so many and others will come too.

How amazing the modern age and the scaping scene otherwise.? A new product comes out. Shortly find a way to some local expert like Dave Chow. Passes some tests and now the device is there in UK, Germany, France, Brazil etc etc.
And the network is testing this and you can buy it before the PFK would even write about it 

ops sorry long post. stop here


----------



## viktorlantos

Piece-of-fish said:


> Why I cannot edit the post  shows blank field when trying to edit.


 
The forum engine is outdated. May need some work. Til then use the preview button when you edit the post. There you can see your post and make changes in it 
There's a nice extension what we're using in our community. Multi-quote. Would be awesome to have it here too sometime.


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Wow cracking bed time reading, maybe I'm not too old to ask Santa for a twinstar this year cheers Victor, great stuff

Sent from my LT30p using Tapatalk


----------



## ghostsword

Ok, so for now we do not know much how it works, just that it does..  

So around £150 for unit, then about £25 yearly for difusser.. 

I setup aquariums on school and hospital environments, and I try to avoid liquid carbon as much as possible.. so I could try this on a customer site, under real conditions that most customers will face, such as no more than a weekly review of the tank, moderate flow, ferts and light..

Now, which shops in the UK sell this? and more importantly, do they also sell the replacement diffusers?


----------



## James D

It's too long to quote but great post Viktor.


----------



## Iain Sutherland

Been watching this thread with great interest, seeing the sceptics and the optimists doing battle.  

Im a bit of a sceptic and my first thought were along the snake oil lines but i do try to keep an open mind.  Being a bit of a sucker for a gadget i was intrigued and now seeing that it does have a positive effect on our aquariums im pretty sold, certainly enough to give it a go.  
While i dont have any real algae issues, like most of us it is in our tanks and being that i lust after a perfect tank if this gizmo can eradicate the little fuzz algae at the top of my cyperus leaves nearest the light, keep the stones clean and increase growth rates then its a welcome addition to the hobby in my eyes.  No doubt the price will fall significantly once other manufactures reverse engineer it but that true of everything.

I would really like to see this in action in a poorly maintained tank to see how well it will fair, how much maintenance will it compensate for?  Personally i quite enjoy maintenance day but agree wholly with Viktor, some people just want a nice tank and dont have the time or energy to spend learning the basics.

It could certainly be a great addition to most LFS display tanks and even plant holding tanks!

Now if they could just make one that works on BBA too....


----------



## ghostsword

Iain Sutherland said:


> I would really like to see this in action in a poorly maintained tank to see how well it will fair, how much maintenance will it compensate for? Personally i quite enjoy maintenance day but agree wholly with Viktor, some people just want a nice tank and dont have the time or energy to spend learning the basics.


 
If I get one it will be used on a 120L poorly maintained tank.. really curious if it will work as well on a regular customer tank.. If it does, then this is a great tool, irrespective of how it does its magic..


----------



## steveno

Following on Viktor recent reviews, i just puchase myself one of these devises, from Freshwater Shrimp, i spoke to Edward who seemed to suggest they would be getting replacement diffuse, so took the plunge...

This will be going in my recently set up Iwagmui, so not quite from begining, bu i recently change filter media so filter is pretty clean and give the tank a once over before put diffuse in. I wouldn't go as far to my tank is poorly maintained but i am certainly no experts, i would say i'm what you would called a caual scaper.

In my tank there is a bit of alage particular on the one of the peices of rock which despite my bests effort wont scub off...

Device arrive tomorrow, so will have over weekend to try... finger crossed.

Will post my own review.


----------



## ghostsword

steveno said:


> I wouldn't go as far to my tank is poorly maintained but i am certainly no experts, i would say i'm what you would called a caual scaper.


 
I am looking for updates on this..  although I am in SA I have contacted Ed to enquire about purchasing, but I would like to also buy difusers at the same time..


----------



## steveno

Hello Luis,



ghostsword said:


> I am looking for updates on this..  although I am in SA I have contacted Ed to enquire about purchasing, although I would like to also buy difusers at the same time..


 
I dont think FWS have the replacments in stock yet, but Ed did suggest they would getting them in.


----------



## dw1305

H all,
I don't think any-one needs to open one up, from what Viktor and Alan have posted it is an oxygen nano/micro-bubble generator. From page 9. of this thread





alanyusupov said:


> The device uses technology to create micro-bubbles that destroy the cell wall of the algae in the end they can not grow. This technology is non-toxic and harmless for aerobic bacteria.





dw1305 said:


> OK there is quite a lot of scientific work on micro and nano bubbles <Principle and applications of microbubble and nanobubble technology for water treatment>). That would also account for the high cost of the unit, and why it wears out, in both cases because of the erosion of the platinum/palladium electrode set.


 This is from: Patent US6689262 <Patent US6689262 - Microbubbles of oxygen - Google Patente>


> An oxygen emitter which is an electrolytic cell is disclosed. When the anode and cathode are separated by a critical distance, very small microbubbles and nanobubbles of oxygen are generated. The hydrogen forms bubbles at the cathode, which bubbles rise to the surface. The very small oxygen bubbles remain in suspension, forming a solution supersaturated in oxygen. .........The electrodes may be formed into open grids or may be closed surfaces. The most preferred cathode is a stainless steel mesh. ....... The most preferred anode is platinum and iridium oxide on a support. A preferred support is titanium.


 cheers Darrel


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside

dw1305 said:


> H all,
> I don't think any-one needs to open one up, from what Viktor and Alan have posted it is an oxygen nano/micro-bubble generator. From page 9. of this thread This is from: Patent US6689262 <Patent US6689262 - Microbubbles of oxygen - Google Patente>
> cheers Darrel




Excellent info Darrel, thank you very much. 

From what you are quoting here, I gather that using a syringe to dose H2O2 onto rocks etc would have a similar effect?

However, I know that H2O2 is not 'fish safe'  if directed at them or heavily dosed.
How does this unit differ? Just a low dosage?


----------



## steveno

Great I just paid for a very fancy air stone…   Oh I’m always one to give new technology a try, and if means a little less work for me all the better.

I currently using an Söchting Oxydator D in this tank to provide additional oxygen using hydrogen peroxide solution, but don’t like the size of the unit, it much bigger that the mini version. I haven’t notice that the amount of algae has reduce in my tank since using. Thou perhaps I should be treating algae directly with solution.

If the twinstar reduces the level of maintenance, if only a little it would still be appealing for me. While I love this hobby I really struggle to find as much time for it i would like. Working fully time and a young son dosent leave  time for much else.


----------



## ghostsword

Thanks for your concise explanation Darrel.. really appreciate it.. 

I know that high oxigen in a tank means a cleaner tank, and I saw that with the addiction of an air pump at night time.. interesting take on the microbubles.. if it affects algae, why is not affecting plants?


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,





ghostsword said:


> if it affects algae, why is not affecting plants?


 I'm not sure, the bubbles don't look like hydrogen, so I think they must be micro-bubbles of oxygen. I also think the nano-bubbles (which are ~10nm & much too small to be seen) are meant to adhere to surfaces, and stop algal cells from adhering themselves.

If you have a look at the waste water link < Principle and applications of microbubble and nanobubble technology for water treatment >, it has an explanation. 





steveno said:


> I currently using an Söchting Oxydator D in this tank to provide additional oxygen using hydrogen peroxide solution,


 This was popular 20 years ago, particularly for Rift Lake cichlids etc. I like high oxygen levels, but I'm not sure that any of these methods add very much long term, and I commented on this under REDOX values earlier in the thread <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/twinstar-what-is-it.28335/page-5>.

It really depends what you want, I want a low maintenance jungle, and I don't care if I have some algae, in fact I'd be worried if I didn't. I'd really stand by 





dw1305 said:


> I use a related concept for tank management, maintenance of a low BOD and ensuring that oxygen levels remain high, but I don't worry about humic compounds etc., in fact quite the opposite I actively add them. If you have plants (and to some extent efficient microbial filtration) you don't need anything else.


 from <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/twinstar-what-is-it.28335/page-3>.

cheers Darrel


----------



## NatureBoy

Nathaniel Whiteside said:


> Hello George,
> 
> It was intended to be light hearted banter, more so in response to NatureBoys Link to Ian holdiches topic on 'the silver Bullet'.
> 
> I too regard victor as an exceptional aquarist. One of the best on this forum.
> And I do not doubt his findings either, as the results are clearly showing something is happening, and his tests seem methodical.
> 
> I believe the product produces a likeness in results to the use of Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2).
> 
> Cheers,
> N


 
don't dob me in!


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside

NatureBoy said:


> don't dob me in!



If it gets me off the hook!!!


----------



## Ian Holdich

He grassed on me as well!


----------



## tim

Love this thread it's wholesome  now if only the twin star worked on bba/red algae I'd bloody buy two lol all other algaes have been easy to shift trying to do battle with bba ha I hate the bloody tuffty black beard stuf and I cannot shift it, on the plus side though I've cleared up GSA diatoms gda staghorn and various others I would imagine in my pursuit to irradicate bba, saved a few pennies too  if twin star can stop bba I'll be buying one


----------



## NatureBoy

hilarious....welcome to the wonderful world of nano bubbles http://staff.aist.go.jp/m.taka/nano-bubble.pdf do you think if I had a bath in them I'd get a six pack? They seem to do everything you'd want...seriously though it is pretty exciting


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside

Ian Holdich said:


> He grassed on me as well!



The trodden path, is the safest.


----------



## Rob P

After reading this thread I'm hearing voices from the dark side... pay rise/back pay almost spent already lol


----------



## viktorlantos

tim said:


> Love this thread it's wholesome  now if only the twin star worked on bba/red algae I'd bloody buy two lol all other algaes have been easy to shift trying to do battle with bba ha I hate the bloody tuffty black beard stuf and I cannot shift it, on the plus side though I've cleared up GSA diatoms gda staghorn and various others I would imagine in my pursuit to irradicate bba, saved a few pennies too  if twin star can stop bba I'll be buying one


 
Its not good for brush based on the documentation unfortunately.
Which is strange as H2O2 do a great damage on this type of algae too.


----------



## viktorlantos

There's a little annoying feature what i faced with today. As we had some electricity maintenance in the shop.
If the electricity is down Twinstar will not come back to operation later.
So you need to restart it. It's ok but i had to do this 2-3 times today because of the outages.


----------



## Ian Holdich

It's a pity we can't find a air pump powerful enough and run it though an atomiser, as it'll do the same thing.


----------



## OllieNZ

You dont need an air pump just get a divers bottle same as using FE co2 then


----------



## steveno

Hello All,

Just thought I would let you all know my Twinstar Nano arrive today, I’ll be installing tomorrow. This will be installed in my current tank:

*‘*My own iwagumi scape’

This scape was started just under two months ago, so not new (currently running a journal), but i wouldn't say is fully matured.

Tank Parameters:

120l Optiwhite tank
Inline diffuser connected to C02 fire extinguisher connected to timer (4-6 BPS, and set to come on 1.5 hour before lights on)
TetraTec External EX1200 (filter media as supplied, but in of the compartment i have replace the Biological Filter Foam with 1 litre ADA Bio Rio, I have also put a 100ml bagged of seachem  purigen on the top compartment)
Hydor ETH External Thermal Heater
2x AquaRay GroBeam 1000 ND suspended approx. 250mm from top of tank, connected to timer (set to turn on for 7 hours a day)
Hydor Koralia 900 pump
Glass intake and lilly pipe
 C20 drop checker
Substrate:  ADA Aqua Soil Amazonia (65% of which is mature over a year old)
Hardscape:  Seiryu stones
Plants: HC, Echinodorus uruguayensis, Anubias nana bonsai

Water parameters: pH 6.2-6.5, temp set to 23celsius, TDS 180-200ppm (recent purchase TDS meter from ebay for my shrimp tank)

Weeky Fertilizers: ADA Brigthy K, ADA Step 1 & ADA Green gain (note I have only recently started using only ADA fertilizers previously I was using the Easy-life range)

Current livestock: 3 Otos, 2x black neon tetras, 6 amano shrimp & 2x assassin snails. Will shortly be adding a large school fish (not sure what thou).

Typical weekly maintenance regime:

40% water change (tap with conditioner – water is very soft and is approx.  45tds direct from source)
Twice weekly scrub rocks and tank glass with toothbrush, as typical covered in a thin layer of algae.
As suggest despite my best efforts I can not remove algae completely from rocks, there also always some visible algae on HC (which i am afraid to remove in fear of ripping up carpet) and  also below substrate up against tank (which I don’t know how to remove – tried blacking out substrate only with little effect).

Note I have no idea what the different type of algae I have so many have more than one type, it all the same to me

No photos at the moment as camera acting up, I going to leave Twinstar running and report back in a week.


----------



## Tim Harrison

I think we've talked ourselves into it...


----------



## John S

Thanks to Viktor for reporting his results.



steveno said:


> No photos at the moment as camera acting up, I going to leave Twinstar running and report back in a week.


Looking forward to updates on this.


----------



## Ian Holdich

OllieNZ said:


> You dont need an air pump just get a divers bottle same as using FE co2 then




Anyone want to try this out? It would be good to have a comparison, it would also be a lot cheaper!


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,
Working from the assumption that the Twinstar unit has a positive effect (and I still think that is a very large proviso), you would have to look at the 2 component parts separately. The increased oxygen levels could be replicated by a large gas exchange surface, a reversed period planted refugium or adding oxygen via a liquid oxygen cylinder and vaporizer (this is how the oxygen barges on the Thames work). This is only relevant to period when lights are off, for most of us when the lights are on dissolved oxygen levels are going to be at ~100%.

The second component is the nano-bubbles, which would be responsible for the algal suppression, increased fish health etc. as described here: 





NatureBoy said:


> welcome to the wonderful world of nano bubbles http://staff.aist.go.jp/m.taka/nano-bubble.pdf


 and people will have to make up their own minds about them <http://staff.aist.go.jp/m.taka/Video_E6.html>. You could only produce these nano-bubbles with a dedicated unit.

cheers Darrel


----------



## foxfish

Ian Holdich said:


> Anyone want to try this out? It would be good to have a comparison, it would also be a lot cheaper!


 Hmm I am not sure if you are serious ?
Basic 12l dive bottle £150...decent one from around £250 - £550, not sure how you would deal with the 3000psi but a dive reg starts around £250.
Personally I would not really fancy a dive bottle in my lounge but  if you think that would duplicate a twinstar performance I guess it might appeal to some?


----------



## macek.g




----------



## Yo-han

steveno said:


> Hello All,
> 
> Just thought I would let you all know my Twinstar Nano arrive today, I’ll be installing tomorrow. This will be installed in my current tank:
> 
> *‘*My own iwagumi scape’
> 
> Echinodorus uruguayensis
> 
> No photos at the moment as camera acting up, I going to leave Twinstar running and report back in a week.



Looking forward to see your results. Btw, you know the Echinodorus gets huge? I had it over 60cm...


----------



## steveno

Hello Chaps,

Further to my last post, manage to get my misses camera working FUJI x20, lovely camera but no idea how to use properly, but photos are well better than the one taken on my phone.

Here some pics taken before I turn unit on.




 

 



Photo showing algae on stones, and if you look carefully you make out algae below substrate and on surface of stones. As you can see not a completely a badly maintained tank but still with a few algae issue

Here a photo after device has been turned on, lovely cloud effect.





Water changed and tank was given a once over before turning on. As suggested i going to leaving running for the next week, i also wont carry out my usual mid week maintenance. Let see how we get on.

Cheers


----------



## Tim Harrison

_http://staff.aist.go.jp/m.taka/nano-bubble.pdf_
So to sum up we're guessing it's a nano-bubble generator, if so we're also not absolutely sure what gas those nano-bubbles are composed of...but best guess is probably O2. Have we completely ruled out any part played by O3? Either way - judging by the results in Viktor's tank and others - it can only be a good thing...right...

...But what if we're wrong...what if the Twinstar turns out to be harmful, or a fiendishly cleaver plot orchestrated by a Blofeld-esk type Bond villainous megalomaniac with a penchant for stroking white pussies...perhaps he was traumatised by the planted tank Gestapo as a child and is now hell bent on revenge...perhaps the Twinstar surreptitiously erodes silicon...and the aquariums of the unwary purchases are destined to fall apart like a circus clown's car...


----------



## Andy Thurston

steveno said:


> Hello Chaps,
> 
> Further to my last post, manage to get my misses camera working FUJI x20, lovely camera but no idea how to use properly, but photos are well better than the one taken on my phone.
> 
> Here some pics taken before I turn unit on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photo showing algae on stones, and if you look carefully you make out algae below substrate and on surface of stones. As you can see not a completely a badly maintained tank but still with a few algae issue
> 
> Here a photo after device has been turned on, lovely cloud effect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Water changed and tank was given a once over before turning on. As suggested i going to leaving running for the next week, i also wont carry out my usual mid week maintenance. Let see how we get on.
> 
> Cheers



All that money on an optiwhite tank and fancy glassware ruined by a pieces of plastic from china. At least the wavemaker trys to hide


----------



## darren636

Six sharks at aquarium killed by faulty ozoniser equipment | News | Practical Fishkeeping


----------



## steveno

Big clown said:


> All that money on an optiwhite tank and fancy glassware ruined by a pieces of plastic from china. At least the wavemaker trys to hide


 
LOL... I was thinking how best i could hide diffuser and cable... i actually don't mind the diffuse so much as the wire.

Regarding the tank, it was purchased off ebay for less than £40 (when i first started this hobby), thou wish spend a bit more as silicon joint aren't great.


----------



## viktorlantos

Ok another thing to share.

In our first test we used the device in an aquarium where the stones not raise the water hardness (Fossilized wood)

The second test is happening in a Seiryu packed aquarium where almost 40-50kg stones are there.
Earlier i worried that the gas errode the stones. That is not happening on the other stones so maybe the one which has a light white patch now had an issue originally.

But! The calcium stuck in the diffuser plate in patches. Not sure of this will close down the mesh fully, but this is there in small patches.
I had contacted with Twinstar and they mentioned that they already fixed the issue and the new devices will hit Europe around this time.
But the old model has this issue with the mesh plate.

He also sent me a photo from Dave Chow who also reported this issue in the past and i guess the production used his feedback to improve the diffuser plate






And here is the old vs new model






Twinstar also mentioned that the Calcium covered diffusers can be cleaned with a cleaning solution.
So if you face with this issue it's possible to clean. They told me too, that i can leave the unit in our Seiryu scape as it is possible to clean.

On our unit i do not see problems with the diffusion yet, but as it gets clogged maybe you will realize this on the performance.

Anyway it's good to know. Keep in mind guys. The new unit will come to europe shortly.

ps: Twinstar working nicely in our Seiryu scape. I try to share the images next week sometime.
But as i thought depend on your setup (crowded tank, high builds, flow) the unit helps you quicker or slower.


----------



## tim

foxfish said:


> Hmm I am not sure if you are serious ?
> Basic 12l dive bottle £150...decent one from around £250 - £550, not sure how you would deal with the 3000psi but a dive reg starts around £250.
> Personally I would not really fancy a dive bottle in my lounge but  if you think that would duplicate a twinstar performance I guess it might appeal to some?


Could I use this Argon & CO2 Disposable Gas Weld Regulator: Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools with this  Oxy Turbo Oxygen Disposable Gas Cylinder | eBay if yes I have an unstocked  tank with some algae and I'll give it a whirl just need a welder to tell me bottle and regs compatible


----------



## steveno

viktorlantos said:


> The new unit will come to europe shortly.


 
Great!  should have to listen to Nat and waited... let hope this doesn't happen to my unit, thou i have not notice anything yet, the hardscape consist mainly of Seiryu stones, i haven't notice any fizzing on stones thou. I have to keep my eye on it.



viktorlantos said:


> Twinstar also mentioned that the Calcium covered diffusers can be cleaned with a cleaning solution.


 
  Good to heard thou what cleaning solution?


----------



## sa80mark

Yes mate there compatible


----------



## Andy Thurston

Theres a good chance you could use that 02 can with a disposable co2 reg send them an email and ask what size thread it is. Also remember this is welding oxygen which is purer than medical o2 and much purer than divers air. it is very dangerous in high concentrations


----------



## tim

Big clown said:


> Theres a good chance you could use that 02 can with a disposable co2 reg send them an email and ask what size thread it is. Also remember this is welding oxygen which is purer than medical o2 and much purer than divers air. it is very dangerous in high concentrations


Am I being thick isn't O2 O2 would it be possible to overdose if there was livestock in the tank ?


----------



## viktorlantos

steveno said:


> let hope this doesn't happen to my unit,


 
if it happen it can be cleaned. Just like you soak your CO2 diffusers in cleaning solutions.



steveno said:


> Good to heard thou what cleaning solution?


 
Will receive it shortly as far as i know. Do not know yet but as i hear back i will share of course.


----------



## steveno

viktorlantos said:


> if it happen it can be cleaned. Just like you soak your CO2 diffusers in cleaning solutions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Will receive it shortly as far as i know. Do not know yet but as i hear back i will share of course.


 

Thxs Viktor...


----------



## OllieNZ

tim said:


> Am I being thick isn't O2 O2 would it be possible to overdose if there was livestock in the tank ?


If you decide to go ahead with using the o2 please read and understand this http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCoQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hse.gov.uk%2Fpubns%2Fhse8.pdf&ei=yXiIUoTfDOyV7Ab68IGgBg&usg=AFQjCNFtcZMgnfAcFkFjymcIu15S2IhXyg I can't stress enough how dangerous o2 is if not handled correctly. I dont want to put you off just make sure you know what you getting yourself into.


----------



## tim

Thank you, Ollie much more to consider than I first thought.


----------



## John S

steveno said:


> ....going to leave Twinstar running and report back in a week


 
Any updates Stevo?


----------



## steveno

Hello all,

Well it’s been a week since I have installed a twinstar nano, time for an update.

I am pleased to report that the device seem to have had a positive effect in my tank, whiles the impact isn’t as dramatic as what Viktor reported, I can honest say that I not had to deal with any new algae this week. Typical I would get a thin build up off green algae by now, which I would need to toothbrush off but this week I’ve not need to do this. The persistent alga that was on my rock that wouldn’t come off despite my best efforts with a toothbrush finally came off this week.
As suggested I‘ve not had the thin build-up of green algae on my tank rocks, or glass which typically needs removing using a razor blade. However I have notice that instead of the algae I’m get  what i can only describe as a thin layer of white powder thou this very easily wipe off, I assume this is the algae dying off?

Before


 

 



After



 

 



I have also notice a big improvement on my plants grow rate, look at the bonsai that is just a week worth of growth! Similar my Echinodorus tennellus (incorrectly identified as Echinodorus uruguayensis, apologies), hairgress and single Pogostemon helferi all have shown a significant improvement in growth. The effect on my HC isn’t as significant but I certainly has seen an improvement, and is filling out much better, so much so that I have taken to pressing HC down which I hope will improve density further. Note the bare section in the right isn’t new growth i have just planned some more HC to help fill in. I should  note however that I have recently changed to ADA ferts, but in the first week of using these I didn’t notice the same improvement in growth, so it may be a combination of both new ferts and device but I honestly say I never have had this much growth in such a small period.

Another thing that I have noticed which Viktor similarly reported is that the water clarity is much improved, not sure if the photos portrait this very well as my photographic skills aren’t great.  I have always used purigen and thought my water clarity was very good, since installing device water is now crystal clear, if it wasn’t for the C02 bubbles I wouldn’t know that there was any water in it.

While I'm sure many of you may still be unconvinced regarding device, but given the result i have had in week alone I happy i bought it, in terms of maintenance it certainly made it easier for me . However, we're all after the perfect scape and look so do do think the design of device could be  improved, it just stands out to much for me, particularly the white wire.


----------



## steveno

Sorry Photo did line up when i uploaded, which made it easier to compare.


----------



## John S

Thanks for the update, it's still sounding positive.


----------



## foxfish

Looking very clean


----------



## NatureBoy

steveno said:


> Hello Chaps,
> 
> Further to my last post, manage to get my misses camera working FUJI x20, lovely camera but no idea how to use properly, but photos are well better than the one taken on my phone.
> 
> Here some pics taken before I turn unit on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photo showing algae on stones, and if you look carefully you make out algae below substrate and on surface of stones. As you can see not a completely a badly maintained tank but still with a few algae issue
> 
> Here a photo after device has been turned on, lovely cloud effect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Water changed and tank was given a once over before turning on. As suggested i going to leaving running for the next week, i also wont carry out my usual mid week maintenance. Let see how we get on.
> 
> Cheers


 
wow looking very promising!


----------



## James D

Tanks looking good Steveno, I really like your scape.

I was in The Green Machine on Saturday and what did I see? A twinstar being tested in one of their tanks. I don't want to put words in anyone's mouths but they seemed fairly positive so far.

It's something I'd definately be interested in but it does look a bit unsightly if you've got nowhere to hide it in your tank.


----------



## viktorlantos

Quick things to add based on our "almost a month" test 

The device raise the pH level a bit. We usually have 6.5 in our tanks, but where Twinstar is running is 6.9-7. This is an upper limit for some bee shrimps but i not recognized any issue. Maybe the increased oxygen level has more weight than the slightly lower pH. Anyway with CO2 and Aqua Soil Africana we read the above pH. Still this is the optimal pH so i am not worried.
Aquarium glass need to be cleaned weekly approx. But easy to clean. Strange as from decors and plants the algae is dying off, but the glass has a little hair/greendot
Seiryu takes a bit longer to clean up. This is happening but had much quicker effect on Dragon stones (dragon is still super clear from any dot etc). Also since Seiryu hardening the water i see those Ca+ stuffs on the diffusor plate. I guess the diffusor need to be cleaned in every few weeks to perform the best. We never cleaned since we started. Will do after the test.
Our 4 weeks test will come to an end this week. Will post an image on the tank later this week.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





viktorlantos said:


> but where Twinstar is running is 6.9-7. This is an upper limit for some bee shrimps but i not recognized any issue. Maybe the increased oxygen level has more weight


 Sounds like it is an oxygen effect, it is the O- in OH- that makes it a base.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Martin in Holland

Would a pressured diving bottle and a diffuser have a similar effect?


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Martin in China said:


> Would a pressured diving bottle and a diffuser have a similar effect?


 Assuming you mean the change in pH? it would. In soft water with plants you get a large diurnal change in pH, depending upon the CO2/O2 ratio. When plants are photosynthesising the level of O2 rises, raising pH, and when they stop and become net oxygen consumers (and CO2 producers) pH falls as a small proportion of CO2 goes into solution as H2CO3 (HCO3- and H+, and acids are defined as H+ donors). 

In heavily carbonated buffered water (high dKH), you don't get anything like the same rise and fall in pH, as the water is full of bases all ready (so has a pH of ~pH7.8) and the large amount of HC03- ions means that the bicarbonate ~ CO2 equilibrium needs you to add a lot of CO2 (really the H+ from H2CO3) for the pH to fall.

We get a reduction in pH when we add CO2 (and we can use 4dKH indicator to estimate CO2 levels) because of the CO2~HCO3 equilibrium, if we add oxygen it will have the effect of depressing the fall in pH, because we are adding oxygen (O2), and it is an H+ acceptor (H+ and O-H = H2O).

cheers Darrel


----------



## Martin in Holland

I actually ment...would a higher O2 level (more acidic) also be able to stop algae growth...could it be that a healthy growing plantlife generates more O2 thus less algae....could it be so simple?


----------



## viktorlantos

Martin in China said:


> I actually ment...would a higher O2 level (more acidic) also be able to stop algae growth...could it be that a healthy growing plantlife generates more O2 thus less algae....could it be so simple?


 
This would help with the filter bacteria and with this the water quality in general. Water will be clearer, some algae which exist because of your lower filter efficiency will disappear probably.
But still Twinstar helps with green dot and some other algea which would not disappear so quickly just by adding oxygen. Also plant growth is not visible that much with oxygen addition.
That is probably the cause of the super small bubbles in a specific volume.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all





Martin in China said:


> would a higher O2 level (more acidic)


No other way around, more oxygenated water is more alkaline (higher pH). 





viktorlantos said:


> That is probably the cause of the super small bubbles in a specific volume.


Like Viktor suggests if there is an algal suppression effect it is likely to be caused by the nano-bubbles of oxygen, rather than the oxygen in the water, even if it is at 100% DO saturation (or even super-saturated in bright light with sufficient nutrients). It tends to be a self limiting system in some ways, as very high rates of photosynthesis rapidly deplete CO2 levels. As a general rule high levels of oxygen mean low levels of CO2, unless we are actively adding CO2.

Curiously it is easiest to get oxygen super-saturation in quite polluted water (where bacterial activity is creating CO2), but only in bright light (details are here under "facultative ponds"<3. Wastewater treatment>).





> Even under satisfactory operating conditions, the dissolved oxygen concentration (DO) in a facultative pond will vary diurnally as well as over the depth. Maximum DO will occur at the surface of the pond and will usually reach supersaturation in tropical regions at the time of maximum radiation intensity, as shown in Figure 9. From that time until sunrise, DO will decline and may well disappear completely for a short period. For a typical facultative pond depth, Df_,_ of 1.5m the water column will be predominantly aerobic at the time of peak radiation and predominantly anaerobic at sunrise. As illustrated in Figure 9, the pH of the pond contents will also vary diurnally as algae utilize CO2 throughout daylight hours and respire, along with bacteria and other organisms, releasing CO2 during the night.


 Figure 9.





In terms of the saturation of water with oxygen bubbles from photosynthesis it could be from any photosynthetic  plant, including the green algae, it doesn't have to be higher plants. As an example a lot of atmospheric oxygen comes from photosynthesising marine Diatoms.

I'd have to check, but that should probably be "_any photosynthetic organism including cyanobacteria_", as I'm pretty sure that cyanobacteria will "pearl" as well in certain circumstances.

cheers Darrel


----------



## George Farmer

Hi Darrell 

How do you think the O2 is produced? By separating the O from the H2O using electrolysis?

Cyano does pearl too. I've had it myself (insert puking noise here).


----------



## Martin in Holland

George Farmer said:


> Hi Darrell
> 
> How do you think the O2 is produced? By separating the O from the H2O using electrolysis?
> 
> Cyano does pearl too. I've had it myself (insert puking noise here).


If we could just harvest that H from this proces, we can run our cars with that waste product from our fish tanks...)


----------



## George Farmer

I "give in".

I'm getting one.


----------



## foxfish

About time too


----------



## Gary Nelson

George Farmer said:


> I "give in".
> 
> I'm getting one.


Really? must say im a bit tempted.... I seem to be reading more good than bad about them now.


----------



## TOO

The hype is building . As i understand it, it does not have any effect on bba? This is my only enemy at the moment. So will wait to hear more on everyone's experiences in that regard.

Thomas


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





George Farmer said:


> How do you think the O2 is produced? By separating the O from the H2O using electrolysis?


 Yes I do, based upon the patent information posted on page 9. 
Have a look at this paper for some figures, they achieved about 300% super-saturation of O2: <PLOS ONE: Oxygen and Air Nanobubble Water Solution Promote the Growth of Plants, Fishes, and Mice>, although it is a paper that I would have a lot of reservations about.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Piece-of-fish

TOO said:


> The hype is building . As i understand it, it does not have any effect on bba? This is my only enemy at the moment. So will wait to hear more on everyone's experiences in that regard.
> 
> Thomas


It wont kill it for sure. Might prevent it but cannot confirm that. It does not say it will kill it either though.


----------



## Ian_lawton

Do they do them for larger tanks? Mines 350l but has a fair amount of green algae growing on the hardscape as its newly set up, perfect to test it out on


----------



## steveno

TOO said:


> The hype is building . As i understand it, it does not have any effect on bba? This is my only enemy at the moment. So will wait to hear more on everyone's experiences in that regard.
> 
> Thomas


 
It not touched BBA in my tank, i had a little growing on my Echinodorus tennellus, however since trimming effected leaves i've not noticed it has returning.


----------



## TOO

steveno said:


> It not touched BBA in my tank, i had a little growing on my Echinodorus tennellus, however since trimming effected leaves i've not noticed it has returning.


 
Well, if it suppresses its return that's half the battle won.

Thomas


----------



## Yo-han

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,  Yes I do, based upon the patent information posted on page 9.
> Have a look at this paper for some figures, they achieved about 300% super-saturation of O2: <PLOS ONE: Oxygen and Air Nanobubble Water Solution Promote the Growth of Plants, Fishes, and Mice>, although it is a paper that I would have a lot of reservations about.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Nanobubbles are really awesome. I've seen some amazing achievements with it, like keeping an orchid alive for months submersed.


----------



## roadmaster

viktorlantos said:


> Quick things to add based on our "almost a month" test
> 
> The device raise the pH level a bit. We usually have 6.5 in our tanks, but where Twinstar is running is 6.9-7. This is an upper limit for some bee shrimps but i not recognized any issue. Maybe the increased oxygen level has more weight than the slightly lower pH. Anyway with CO2 and Aqua Soil Africana we read the above pH. Still this is the optimal pH so i am not worried.
> Aquarium glass need to be cleaned weekly approx. But easy to clean. Strange as from decors and plants the algae is dying off, but the glass has a little hair/greendot
> Seiryu takes a bit longer to clean up. This is happening but had much quicker effect on Dragon stones (dragon is still super clear from any dot etc). Also since Seiryu hardening the water i see those Ca+ stuffs on the diffusor plate. I guess the diffusor need to be cleaned in every few weeks to perform the best. We never cleaned since we started. Will do after the test.
> Our 4 weeks test will come to an end this week. Will post an image on the tank later this week.


 
Have been following along, and have a few question's before I would sing praises of the device or give it maybe too much credit?.
180 litre , (40 gal UK) 6 month old fully mature tank with CO 2 system issues for roughly two week's.
Was issue corrected before using the device? If so , can one be certain that the correction alone did not contribute lion's share of fix?

250 ml purigen with 40 % weekly water changes and fert routine.
Was purigen exhausted while algae was proliferating ? Was purigen recharged before using device?

Some algae returned due to "powerful light's" according to what has been posted.
Was lighting duration,intensity,adjusted before or during use of device?

30 or 40 Amano shrimp,Nerites, Siamese algae eater's in roughly 40 UK gal could not make dent in algae?
Were these alway's the tank's resident's? or were they added during use of device?
Can one be certain they ,along with possible CO2 system fix before or during use of device,did not help also with algae eradication?
I ask this because it was stated that a lot of work in one week, went on to make tank clear and healthy ,and cannot help but think number's of algae cleanup crew did not also contribute given my observation's of these critter's and number's listed in previous post.

Perhap's the device is product of the Matrix and the hard work mentioned was all that was really needed?
If all thing's contributing to algae proliferation were addressed before or during the use of the device,,I would easily expect within stated one month,to see significant improvement with or without the device.


----------



## steveno

roadmaster said:


> Have been following along, and have a few question's before I would sing praises of the device or give it maybe too much credit?.
> 180 litre , (40 gal UK) 6 month old fully mature tank with CO 2 system issues for roughly two week's.
> Was issue corrected before using the device? If so , can one be certain that the correction alone did not contribute lion's share of fix?
> 
> 250 ml purigen with 40 % weekly water changes and fert routine.
> Was purigen exhausted while algae was proliferating ? Was purigen recharged before using device?
> 
> Some algae returned due to "powerful light's" according to what has been posted.
> Was lighting duration,intensity,adjusted before or during use of device?
> 
> 30 or 40 Amano shrimp,Nerites, Siamese algae eater's in roughly 40 UK gal could not make dent in algae?
> Were these alway's the tank's resident's? or were they added during use of device?
> Can one be certain they ,along with possible CO2 system fix before or during use of device,did not help also with algae eradication?
> I ask this because it was stated that a lot of work in one week, went on to make tank clear and healthy ,and cannot help but think number's of algae cleanup crew did not also contribute given my observation's of these critter's and number's listed in previous post.
> 
> Perhap's the device is product of the Matrix and the hard work mentioned was all that was really needed?
> If all thing's contributing to algae proliferation were addressed before or during the use of the device,,I would easily expect within stated one month,to see significant improvement with or without the device.


 
Hello Roadmaster,

I cant speak for Viktor, but in my case, i havent done anything differnet than what i normally have done and certainly haven't noticed any new  build-up of algea since installing device, i typical get a thin layer of algea after a couple of days, infact since installing device i not had do any mid week maintainance.

But everyone tank is differnet, so whay may work for one may not work for other, as suggested in my review, i certainly didnt have as dramatic effect as Virktor's tank but it is certainly making a differnace.

Another other thing i have notice i am able to dail up my C02 levels quite abit without affecting my livestock. As i read device creates nano bubbles as an experiment i turned up my C02 levels as i planted some additonal plants (plear grass), to see if it effectted the exisitng live stock in my tank, my drop check is is now bright lime green/ yellow and i haven't notice any differnance in behavle, the fish are not swimming up to the surface for air. 

I'm adding a quite a number of new livestock soon so will see if i need to dail my C02 back down...


----------



## roadmaster

Yes,,everyones tank is different and many variables to consider.
I'm just wondering out loud,but perhap's it is a tool that some might consider along with ,or after exhausting all known remedies.
Sometimes I believe we can take so many action's to help alleviate problem ,that it is hard to single out what may or may not have helped and to what degree. 
Thank you for your response.


----------



## steveno

I think you are right, I’m certainly no experts and as such not always sure the what best solution to alleviate a problem is and even if I manage to sort a particular problem I’m not actually always sure which action actually resolve it as I normally try a combination of things.

For me the reason I brought device was reduce the amount of maintenance required, as struggle to find enough time, and in this regard the twinstar seemed to have done this. It also gives a bit of tolerance so should allow me to make the odd mistakes or miss the odd maintenance seasson without complete screwing up the scape, which is certainly a benefit for a beginner or someone of my skill set.


----------



## viktorlantos

Cheers roadmaster, thank you for your comment. Of course i fully understand your points, but the reason why i shared it becasue what we've seen in that 2 week period was not normal. Too much improvement in a short time.

But here is the detailed answer to your question:



> 180 litre , (40 gal UK) 6 month old fully mature tank with CO 2 system issues for roughly two week's.
> Was issue corrected before using the device? If so , can one be certain that the correction alone did not contribute lion's share of fix?


 
Just by fixing CO2 will not make such an improvement on a heavily affected tank. It will but takes time. Longer for sure. And you may have to be on top of your maintenances removing leaf etc to help your tank.
Just a reminder i did not do anything. No brushing, no trimming nothing. Just regular water change and waited for the result



> 250 ml purigen with 40 % weekly water changes and fert routine.
> Was purigen exhausted while algae was proliferating ? Was purigen recharged before using device?


Purigen was in since the start. If you use more than the factory recommendation you do not need to clean it often. Seachem recommend 100ml/400L which is a poor performance in a planted tank with opti glass.
But once you increase the ammount not just your water will be clearer, but you can extend the maintenance cycle from 4-6 weeks to loooong months. So not touched, not regenerated nothing changed in the filter



> Some algae returned due to "powerful light's" according to what has been posted.
> Was lighting duration,intensity,adjusted before or during use of device?


 
We're not playing with the lights. Using 7 hours on all of our tanks from start to finish. In contest time we may turn on the after burners for a day or 2 but along the year they are the same.
No bulbs were replaced etc  Got the same large intensity as before.



> 30 or 40 Amano shrimp,Nerites, Siamese algae eater's in roughly 40 UK gal could not make dent in algae?
> Were these alway's the tank's resident's? or were they added during use of device?
> Can one be certain they ,along with possible CO2 system fix before or during use of device,did not help also with algae eradication?
> I ask this because it was stated that a lot of work in one week, went on to make tank clear and healthy ,and cannot help but think number's of algae cleanup crew did not also contribute given my observation's of these critter's and number's listed in previous post.


 
They are in from the start. A group of algae eaters like this can handle easily a diatom outbreak at start and can keep clean your tank for a long term.
However as you see 40 amano shrimps which are partly adult ones, so they are predators more like shrimps  is a lot.
But still in some cases they could not help you. You have a large BGA infection they will not help you. If you have thousands of algae affected leaf in a tank they will not help you from one day to the other. In our cases they not really worked on it.
If you have a large team of shrimps you can see that they team up to 6-8 shrimps per groups and they clean certain areas til they finish. They were not active  (and we never feed them  so this was not the reason)

Even at Twinstar i not seen so much activity. otherwise my idea would be that because of the incresed oxygen level the shrimps become more active and would help to eliminate algae.
But the truth is that i haven't seen a single group cleaning the tennelus for example or the grass on the front side. They helped in some way i am sure, but this was not their achievment fully.

This brings another point to the desk, if you use Twinstar you need less algae crew than you usually need. Like 1/5 of the total. So here like 10-15 shrimps, a siamese would be sufficent. If that's right only by not buying that much cleaning crew would save you money for a device.



> Perhap's the device is product of the Matrix and the hard work mentioned was all that was really needed?
> If all thing's contributing to algae proliferation were addressed before or during the use of the device,,I would easily expect within stated one month,to see significant improvement with or without the device.


 
3 thing which was a major improvement on the first test.
1. water clarity - we had issues before with this
2. stone algae issues
3 plants algae issues

We could handle them without the device for sure. But Clarity was a problem only in this tank. None of our others. Maybe the 2075 filtration power was not enough on this tank or the filter bacteria just not performed well. Maybe a little oxygen would have helped on this, but we used Eheim skim to add in oxygen. Frequent water changes etc before and after 3-4 days the cloudiness comes back.

Stone algae issue. We usually clean these dragons in every 4-6 weeks. But this is a clay kind of stone and whenever you brush it it is damaging etc. Also almost impossible to clean off the holes. Neritina and Otocinclus just not helping with this. Or they would needed in a large group if you use this much light. With 2-3 snails and 5 otociclus this just not worked. algae was quicker.

Plant algae issues. Sure with other maintenance tasks this would be clean too. But it would take weeks to eliminate all issues and in that timeframe you need to put in a lot of energy and time. Lets say use a hose to suck down the carpet and the tennellus many times. Trimming down the infected leaf and taking care that the new leaf will look healthy. Meanwhile also need to remove the HC carpet to clean the soil under that (because of BGA) and plant it back or need to inject carbo several times to the soil and see if that helps and not burn your HC field at the same time.

So as you see you can do almost anything. And your tank will get back on track, but it is time consuming and frustration. We only changed water and used the fertilizers the same way as before.

On my test 2 i also see similar effects but seiryu stones are cleaning up much slower at all. But i am not touching the stone or cleaning Twinstar in the remaining 2-3 days til i complete the 1 month test.

As i see from other users they also have similar experiences. Clear water, less issue with algae, less maintenance. So i guess the point is that to use less chemicals less algae eaters and change your maintenance routine a bit if you have such an "assistant" with you.


----------



## Piotr Kaleta

I found this Philips Tropical Aquarium Purifier 10-30 Litres | Charterhouse Aquatics made by philips. Looks like something similar to Twinstar.


----------



## OllieNZ

Piotr Kaleta said:


> I found this Philips Tropical Aquarium Purifier 10-30 Litres | Charterhouse Aquatics made by philips. Looks like something similar to Twinstar.


No it says it uses ozone(ozone generator) which the twinstar is not.


----------



## roadmaster

Well,The more I'm glad that I don't use CO2 or supplement's.
Is hard for me to imagine the rapid decline in tank/plant health when problem's arise In these tank's.
I shall for now ,stick with low tech method where everything happen's at much slower rate.
Will say however that lighting would be my first line of attack when algae began to get away from me.
Would not continue with "powerful lighting" while CO2 problem's persisted.
It is in my view the lighting that drives everything with regard's to CO2,fertz needed , in low tech or high tech.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,





roadmaster said:


> Well,The more I'm glad that I don't use CO2 or supplement's. Is hard for me to imagine the rapid decline in tank/plant health when problem's arise In these tank's. I shall for now ,stick with low tech method where everything happen's at much slower rate.


 Same for me, I like stability, it means I can go away for several weeks, when I come back everything is still much the same.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Trevor Pleco

Have moved the questions to Victor's test thread


----------



## Trevor Pleco

A few quick questions, could you double up on the kit and use them in bigger tanks say over 500L ?

Would it wipe out your moss in addition to the algae, as I note it's also called an algae and moss inhibitor ?


----------



## viktorlantos

Not write here a while ago. Things going well we still testing out the unit. A couple additions to the previous tests as now we run all their models in different conditions.

For algae and planted tank only the Twinstar Mini and Nano is good.
The Mini S, Super S and Shrimp ones are mainly sterilizers and for fish and shrimp holders.

If you have a large tank like 500 liter, a single unit would not do the job so you need to double up. This works, confirmed from the manufaturer.

Using the unit in a tank where you have lots of stones like Seiryu, the salt build up quicker on the surface of the unit. So you need to clean it more often in a solution like Superge from ADA.
But in any way based on the test this is highly recommended to put into a solution in every 3 weeks or so to use it with the maximum efficiency.

The device is a real killer for hair, thread algae. Now as we tested in 3 different tanks, this is the type of algae which die very quickly.
BGA is dying also but slower and only on those places where you have flow. So not on the substrate / front glass for example.

Flow is required for this thing and you need to put the diffuser as low as possible in your tank.

We tested with multiple shrimps including CRS, Tigers, Sakura, Blue Jelly and in a planted tank there were fine.

Green dot algae on decors. With fossilized wood this was very efficient. With Seiryu this is slower for sure and you may need more time.

The time is save in maintenance is priceless  We basically do only water changes and had to focus on trimming.

The manufacturer is not recommend to use the Nano and Mini device in a fish or a shrimp tank as it could change the environment. Do not know what it means, but we did not had any problem with planted tanks. Not used this in fish or shrimp racks.

But we used the Super S sterilizer in a fish rack and it helped with a fish issue in 2 days. We had a group of Velifera which looked bad when we received them form a wholesaler. Had white patches (not dots) on them not swimmed well etc. Added in the Super S and the issue gone in 95% within 30hours approx.

We also used the Shrimp unit in our 30L shrimp rack where we have some high grade CRS K14. 4 pregnant females lots of baby shrimps too. After a day the watr become extreamly clear there. They were clear before from the peat and the good filtration but it's like 300% clearer  All shrimps are fine. They are active.

The sterilizers not only different from the programming logic but also in the device based on the info we received.

So anyway things are good. We used in 3 planted tanks with good success. Helps with the maintenance, you have less pressure on the algae cleaners  probably need less of them.

In our 60L tank the Twinstar Mini was even more quicker. Probably because of the water volume. There the device cleaned up the hair algae on the top of the stems in 24 hours.

The tanks where we tested it:

*1st Test with Twinstar Nano. 180L. Test time 2 weeks*
Matured tank around 5 month old
Result, no thread, no hair algae, BGA died, Stones green dot died and stones cleaned up. Water become crystal clear


Green Aqua Showroom by viktorlantos, on Flickr


Green Aqua Showroom by viktorlantos, on Flickr

*2nd test with Twinstar Nano 180L Test time 2 weeks*
Fresh tank like 2 weeks old
Result, no thread no hair algae in the mosses, BGA died off from the sand you only can see it in the substrate on the front glass.
No diatom, no brown and other starter algae appeared. Green dot is not spreading, but not removing quick enough from the stones. Need more time and more frequent diffusor cleaning for a longer test.
But we did not had to put more maintenance on the start which is good


Twinstar - Test 2 by viktorlantos, on Flickr


Twinstar - Test 2 by viktorlantos, on Flickr

*3rd test with Twinstar Mini Test time 4 days*
This is a month old setup. Using super high lighting levels with ADA Aquasky 602 (dual LED unit)
Was a test also if we can grow extreme RED plants with it just like with T5.
After a larger trim we had quite a lot of hair, thread algae on the top of the stems close to the light unit.
Added in the unit and the algae disappeared in 2 days. Water clear, some leftover dying white brush algae pieces on the parvula is disappearing too.
We had this algae as we had a lot of flow and til the parvula not covered the substrate fully, the flow disturbed the substrate.


Twinstar Mini - Test 3 by viktorlantos, on Flickr

in operation and flow


Twinstar Mini - Test 3 by viktorlantos, on Flickr

when cleared up


Twinstar Mini - Test 3 by viktorlantos, on Flickr

with a 100mm macro shots there are still too many bubbles which is almost invisible or you see them as a fog. This is only for demonstration how small are the bubbles.


Twinstar - Test 2 by viktorlantos, on Flickr


Twinstar - Test 2 by viktorlantos, on Flickr

when it turns off


Twinstar - Test 2 by viktorlantos, on Flickr


----------



## TOO

Hi Viktor,

Thanks for taking the time to give us this detailed information.

Did you notice any effect on BBA - provided you had issues with them, of course?

Does the unit run constantly or on some kind of timer?

Thomas


----------



## viktorlantos

They say it has no effect on the BBA.
But i've seen some with a half dead one on the 60P carpet. So may could have a little but not significant.

This runs in 24 hours, but the external device handling the operation. In dark this works less, in daytime this works more.


----------



## Trevor Pleco

Thanks for this update Viktor and the pics, impressive indeed.   



Trevor Pleco said:


> A few quick questions, could you double up on the kit and use them in bigger tanks say over 500L ?
> 
> Would it wipe out your moss in addition to the algae, as I note it's also called an algae and moss inhibitor ?


 
 So to answer my queries, its seems moss is fine looking at your pics, even though they call it an algae and moss inhibitor, perhaps just lost in translation.  

What about doubling up on two of them for bigger tanks ?


----------



## Iain Sutherland

Trevor Pleco said:


> What about doubling up on two of them for bigger tanks ?


 


viktorlantos said:


> If you have a large tank like 500 liter, a single unit would not do the job so you need to double up. This works, confirmed from the manufaturer.


----------



## Trevor Pleco

Ok thanks so will need three for a 760L, yikes and I promised the kids xmas presents as well


----------



## viktorlantos

Trevor Pleco said:


> Ok thanks so will need three for a 760L, yikes and I promised the kids xmas presents as well


 
Yeah this does not make any sense. They may will came out later with a other model for larger tanks


----------



## tim

Very informative review victor  very interesting thread but I have to say for me if it doesn't kill bba outright I won't be investing it's the only algae I get


----------



## Trevor Pleco

Yeah agree Viktor, please drop hints with the powers that be that they need to bring out a larger 500L unit. 

Tim, interesting that BBA is your problem and nothing else, presumably it's low or fluctuating Co2 levels ?


----------



## TOO

Trevor Pleco said:


> Tim, interesting that BBA is your problem and nothing else, presumably it's low or fluctuating Co2 levels ?


 
I have the same issue as Tim: more or less only bba. The Co2 has been constant for months and is in the high range. Very good flow too. So I am out of possible explanations. I have reduced lighting, upped waterchanges, and attack manually with liquid carbon and I have been seeing reduction in the last few weeks. I remember Clive saying that this is an algae that needs to be evicted from your tank. This is my experience too. Hard work.

Thomas


----------



## Trevor Pleco

I trust you are buffering your ph with crushed coral or the like ?


----------



## flygja

TOO said:


> I have the same issue as Tim: more or less only bba. The Co2 has been constant for months and is in the high range. Very good flow too. So I am out of possible explanations. I have reduced lighting, upped waterchanges, and attack manually with liquid carbon and I have been seeing reduction in the last few weeks. I remember Clive saying that this is an algae that needs to be evicted from your tank. This is my experience too. Hard work.
> 
> Thomas


 

Same problem here. The only way I could stop new tufts of BBA from appearing is to lower my lights so much that plants start suffering. Rotala sp green develope very small leaves (1/4 of their normal size) and Rotala macranda melt away. Increase it enough to grow those plants and BBA appears almost the very next day. I haven't managed to fully evict it.


----------



## TOO

flygja said:


> Same problem here. The only way I could stop new tufts of BBA from appearing is to lower my lights so much that plants start suffering. Rotala sp green develope very small leaves (1/4 of their normal size) and Rotala macranda melt away. Increase it enough to grow those plants and BBA appears almost the very next day. I haven't managed to fully evict it.


 
A delicate balance indeed. What you read about this algae is much less coherent and sometimes even contradictory than for other types. As long as it stays on rocks and does not attack plants it is, however, reasonably manageable with manual effort. Having found it near impossible to remove it with a toothbrush I recently bought ADA's Propicker, which is extremely effective for manual removal. It is in the attention to these kinds of details that ADA is in a league of its own.

Thomas


----------



## Vito

Well I must say I am tempted however I think it's a little bit pricey @ £155 for the nano and I would have hoped for something more discreet for that price, hopefully some sort of inline equivalent will be released, one thing I did notice on some pictures on the web it appears to keep pipes and glass clean... Fact or myth? As this might just warrant the money lol


----------



## sanj

Ok so it looks like some kind of electrolysis...

I was looking at their website (Twinstar) and the trial tanks, quite a few, but I often struggled to see a massive difference. I do like the idea if it is actually good at sterilising against some disease organisms, but I dont really understand it. In a UV system, beneficial bacterial colonies are protected because only what is in the water column is sterilised. Here though it looks like it passes through the whole system so it cant be affective against certain levels of organisms otherwise it would be deadly to an aquarium.

It is helpful that Victor and others are testing this (did I see Greenmachine?), i am still unsure but several people seem sold on it.

How long does it last for?

Any idea on what the electricity consumption is/ wattage rating?

Downside is the cost for large aquariums.


----------



## George Farmer

I have one running myself now. I'll report back soon.


----------



## foxfish

On a slightly different note I just noticed than a quite active Twinstar thread on a very popular American forum has been completely removed!
No idea why but I have sent a pm to the amid to see if they will give an answer.


----------



## NatureBoy

foxfish said:


> On a slightly different note I just noticed than a quite active Twinstar thread on a very popular American forum has been completely removed!
> No idea why but I have sent a pm to the amid to see if they will give an answer.


 
maybe one fell into the hands of someone who was less than a pro scaper....


----------



## foxfish

Strange answer as I only looked at the thread yesterday & everything was sweet...

Hi foxfish,

The moderation team decided to remove the thread as previously, a similar thread degraded into a flame war.

Regards,

Anthony
TPT Moderation Staff


----------



## Gary Nelson

Vito said:


> Well I must say I am tempted however I think it's a little bit pricey @ £155 for the nano and I would have hoped for something more discreet for that price, hopefully some sort of inline equivalent will be released, one thing I did notice on some pictures on the web it appears to keep pipes and glass clean... Fact or myth? As this might just warrant the money lol


TGM have a deal on at the moment - NANO for £130


----------



## Rob P

Gary Nelson said:


> TGM have a deal on at the moment - NANO for £130



Good call Gary  ordered one (few beers in on a Saturday night, what the hell...  lol)


----------



## Trevor Pleco

Waiting for the bigger jumbo model to come out and I'm in . Mind you I guess two units distributed one on either side of the tank might be more efficient than one bigger model, although I really need something for 760l, say 600L of water max. Could they not make a more aesthetically pleasing black colour version or have they ?


----------



## Martin in Holland

damn....why did I buy a 280 liter tank.....(the nano only goes up to 240 liter)

BTW they cost here 1150RMB


----------



## Gary Nelson

Ok, so without me trawling through all pages, can someone explain how the device works... As in: does it go on a timer? or is it just a press of a manual button once a day?


----------



## steveno

Gary Nelson said:


> Ok, so without me trawling through all pages, can someone explain how the device works... As in: does it go on a timer? or is it just a press of a manual button once a day?



Hello Gary, 

Put diffuse inthe corner of your tank, the lower the better. You don't need a timer, just press button on the unit, to correct setting (only two) depends on size of tank and away you go. Easy!


----------



## steveno

Sorry, should've added, you only need to set once, providing you don't turn off or you don't have a five year old with itchy fingers you won't need to reset or anything...


----------



## Rob P

Mode 1 or 2 on the Nano for 125 litre, that's my question!? lol


----------



## steveno

Mode 2, is what I use on my 120l


----------



## Gary Nelson

So once its set and powered on it does it automatically once/twice a day then?


----------



## steveno

Gary Nelson said:


> So once its set and powered on it does it automatically once/twice a day then?



Hello Gary,

It's all automatic, diffuses a fine misty approx. every 10mins for me... Comes on less during lights out, thou not sure how it dose this...


----------



## Trevor Pleco

steveno said:


> Mode 2, is what I use on my 120l


 
and are you happy with it ?

Presumably you don't have to keep it in the tank all the time and you could rotate it in other tanks?


----------



## steveno

Trevor Pleco said:


> and are you happy with it ?
> 
> Presumably you don't have to keep it in the tank all the time and you could rotate it in other tanks?


 
Very happy with it, as Viktor as reported you still need to clean the tank glass but no visible algae on rocks and plants. I keep my twinstar in the one tank 24/7 as my own other tank is a low tech shrimp tank. The devise primarily prevents algae,  but as has been demonstrate can be used to remove green algae, i guess if you wanted to rotate into other tanks you could, i seem to recall viktor suggesting somebody he spoke to doing this to resolve algae issues, but i guess you need to ask yourself what is the route cause of algae, if your not going to keep device in tank the algae will ultimately return.


----------



## Rob P

Do you need to place the diffuser part in an area of best flow (say on rear pane under spray bar) or is on the side pane where you tend to see it in most pictures sufficient?


----------



## steveno

Rob P said:


> Do you need to place the diffuser part in an area of best flow (say on rear pane under spray bar) or is on the side pane where you tend to see it in most pictures sufficient?


 
Hello Rob,

I current have mine located on opposite side of flow pipe, as where you typically see in photos, but there no reason you can install under the spray bar, i put there as i know that's where i have good flow as want to ensure that the nano bubble get distributed evenly around my tank.

Really happy with this this device, since installing even the algae i had below the substrate line against the glass has disappeared.


----------



## Rob P

Cool. Will look forward to trying it out 

Edit - bought some 'biomolecules' today lol


----------



## steveno

Rob P said:


> Cool. Will look forward to trying it out


 
Let us how you get on with it, I'm sure everyone would be interested... particularly as everyone's tank is different... i should really do an update, i currently have an overstocked tank, currently have 35 fish (30 cardinal tetra, 3 Otts and 2 neno black tetra)  6 amano shrimp in my 120l tank but not notice that fish going to surface up for air.


----------



## viktorlantos

Interesting to read the feedback. Just a quick thought from me.

Without being commercial here, we sold all our unit in our first shipment for pro scapers.
I guess this is surprising for many of you, but this is how the device conquered the hobby in the past few months. This was tested in high energy setups by skilled aquascapers.

Many beginner has alga issues and these people would pay a lot to eliminate it fully. But the thing is that many beginners do not even have the right equipments, lights, fertilizer routine, CO2 balance, maintenance cycle and even the basic knowledge of plants etc. So 99% of their issues comes for other reason. There i think Twinstar would not add so much. Since you may help with one thing, but you have many problems with your system and balance in overall.

For a "pro" this is the tool which helps to lower the maintenance a bit, eliminate periodical algae attacks, and keep the tank crystal clear including the decor and the sands too.

For beginner we need to help them educate first the fundamentals how to keep the right plants within a specific condition. Recommend them the system which meet with their requirement. Twinstar is a nice thing in your maintenance bag but will not do miracle if it is not used the right way.

.....

Now as i told this I have to tell the more i use this the more lazy i am  Pretty dangerous 

This tank is running fine. No algae on the sand and i do not find a single bit of algae on any of the plants. Which is cool.
Stones is a bit covered with green dot by the way.


Green Aqua Showroom by viktorlantos, on Flickr

But this one.. ... this one.. .. this one.. .. this is my lovely red garden 
But you also can see the issue as you start neglect your tank  The surface gets some scum. I forgot the WC this week and as the plant grows and blocks the surface and the way of flow, the importance of the filter power will be more.
Had to watch out for this.

But the reds... now that's cool 


Green Aqua Showroom by viktorlantos, on Flickr


Green Aqua Showroom by viktorlantos, on Flickr


Green Aqua Showroom by viktorlantos, on Flickr

Looking forward how this will perform with you guys.

For me it's like a helmet meanwhile i do run with maxspeed on my bike pfff


----------



## Rich Jackson

dw1305 said:


> a reversed period planted refugium
> 
> cheers Darrel



Hi sorry to thread jack. What sort of lights plants and size of refugium is needed? I lineage idea of this for my tank.....


----------



## Trevor Pleco

steveno said:


> Hello Rob,
> 
> 
> Really happy with this this device, since installing even the algae i had below the substrate line against the glass has disappeared.


 

Great, that's where I'm mainly looking to use it so below the substrate and with  lighter coloured rocks that are prone to algae, using lighter coloured Nile sand with a river bed scape makes this ongoing maintenance..


----------



## steveno

Trevor Pleco said:


> Great, that's where I'm mainly looking to use it so below the substrate and with  lighter coloured rocks that are prone to algae, using lighter coloured Nile sand with a river bed scape makes this ongoing maintenance..



Hello Trevor,

You should while you notice a reduction of algea above substrate, the algea under the substrate line will take longer to disappear, I had device in tank for aprox 2 weeks before I noticed any change. After viktor reported the same, like yourselves his was  one of the reasons I brought as I wasn't sure how to remove without distrupting substrate, had even tried covering substrate externally, as a blackout but didn't work.


----------



## Trevor Pleco

ok great, now how do I order one of these in Africa I wonder ?

As I mentioned in a previous post, my new technique of cleaning under the substrate on the front glass is to slowly move a little section of the substrate away, say 50 to 70mm at a time and then let my young ancistrus cleaning squad have a party..glass is crystal clear within hours.

Not sure the cleaning squad is going to be too happy with the Twinstar nano acquisition


----------



## Tim Harrison

viktorlantos said:


> Many beginner has alga issues and these people would pay a lot to eliminate it fully. But the thing is that many beginners do not even have the right equipments, lights, fertilizer routine, CO2 balance, maintenance cycle and even the basic knowledge of plants etc. So 99% of their issues comes for other reason. There i think Twinstar would not add so much. Since you may help with one thing, but you have many problems with your system and balance in overall.
> 
> For a "pro" this is the tool which helps to lower the maintenance a bit, eliminate periodical algae attacks, and keep the tank crystal clear including the decor and the sands too.
> 
> For beginner we need to help them educate first the fundamentals how to keep the right plants within a specific condition. Recommend them the system which meet with their requirement. Twinstar is a nice thing in your maintenance bag but will not do miracle if it is not used the right way


 
Very good point and well made...nice scapes by the way Viktor...


----------



## Rob P

steveno said:


> Let us how you get on with it, I'm sure everyone would be interested... particularly as everyone's tank is different...


 
Well i'm definitely in the beginner category (somebody has to be ) and don't have a show tank lol, but i'll keep notes of what happens. Not for one minute expecting a miracle cure - i'm simply hoping it eases some of the issues that I currently spend time on (leaf cleaning etc) and thus allows me a little more time to continue tweaking the fundamentals 

My new tank will be a mini landcsape rock layout, so it's also chance for a dummy run prior to setting that up.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Rich Jackson said:


> What sort of lights plants and size of refugium is needed?


 You don't need a very big tank for the refugium, I would imagine that 60 litres would do for even a really big tank, and probably  ~ 10 litres is enough for a 60 litre tank. I would just use any waterproof container that you have to jhand, that fits in the space you've got.

I'd probably use _Cabomba caroliniana _as my plant, <Measuring Photosynthesis with Cabomba - National STEM Centre>, but I would imagine that any rapidly growing stem plant would do, and other species may well be better in harder water (_Ceratophyllum or_ _Egeria?_).

Then all you need to do is have a reversed lighting regime, the plants should get plenty of dissolved CO2 from the (now dark) tank and they should evolve enough oxygen to keep the main tank pretty fully oxygenated. I wouldn't worry too much about having greater light intensity than you would for the tank, although this is going to depend upon the nutrient status of the water. If you use EI, you could get away with a long light period as neither CO2 or nutrients would be limiting. I'd be tempted to add some _Asellus_ or Cherry Shrimps to the refugium. 

I always have my tanks on a 12 hour day, so I'd have the refugium light on for the other 12 hours. We used to run the veg. filters in the lab under 24 hour daylight, but they were dealing with leachate with a high BOD, and the plants were emergent etc.

Any particular reason for a refugium? "Wet and Dry" trickle filters are a lot less work.

cheers Darrel


----------



## NatureBoy

Rob P said:


> Well i'm definitely in the beginner category (somebody has to be ) and don't have a show tank lol, but i'll keep notes of what happens. Not for one minute expecting a miracle cure - i'm simply hoping it eases some of the issues that I currently spend time on (leaf cleaning etc) and thus allows me a little more time to continue tweaking the fundamentals
> 
> My new tank will be a mini landcsape rock layout, so it's also chance for a dummy run prior to setting that up.


 
really looking forward to seeing how device works for you...I hope it does what you want


----------



## Trevor Pleco

The manufactures have suggested thee units for my 760L..but will do me a good deal, they seem keen to help 

Wish they had them in black though, three of those conspicuous white units independently spraying vapour all over could end up being quite a scene and launch the first sci fi Iwagumi


----------



## Rob P

Got my order update from TGM... Awaiting stock!! FFS, lol seems they've been quite popular at the offer price, but told I should have it before Xmas


----------



## Trevor Pleco

viktorlantos said:


> Interesting to read the feedback. Just a quick thought from me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Green Aqua Showroom by viktorlantos, on Flickr


 
So then it looks like it does not clean up the algae below substrate level on the front glass or will it ?


----------



## viktorlantos

Trevor Pleco said:


> So then it looks like it does not clean up the algae below substrate level on the front glass or will it ?


 
Yup this is a slower process, but i guess the deep sand does not help on this.
If this would be a clay it would be clean by now.


----------



## Trevor Pleco

Ok thanks Viktor, really great scape by the way !


----------



## Vito

Does anyone know what the lifespan of these units are, as I read on this TWINSTAR website under the experiment report one of the posters mentioned part of the unit has to be replaced after a year... Any insight?


----------



## Trevor Pleco

Yeah good question, was wondering the same.. I guess it's too early to tell with this product being so new on the market and still being tested..


----------



## viktorlantos

The user manual says 12-18 months as i remember. The new diffuser will cost like 50 EUR or so.


----------



## Trevor Pleco

Yeah, when I contacted Twinstar about this they said... 

''You can use it from 9 month to 14 months. It depends on your aquarium condition and if you maintain it regularly or not. We are still using it for more than 20 month.''

I presume you only know you need a replacement when you start seeing algae or does the diffuser simply stop spraying?


----------



## James D

Ok, I'm going to bite the bullet.

I'm wondering if I should buy the mini (Tank size: 60cm X 35cm X 30. Capacity: up to 90L(Liter) which is listed as being the correct size for my tank (ADA 60P) or the Nano which is for a bigger tank (90cm X 45cm X 45cm, 120cm X 45cm X 45cm . Capacity: up to 250L(Liter)?

Is there any harm in buying the bigger one? It's in stock and cheaper.


----------



## steveno

Hello jame's 



James D said:


> Ok, I'm going to bite the bullet.
> 
> I'm wondering if I should buy the mini (Tank size: 60cm X 35cm X 30. Capacity: up to 90L(Liter) which is listed as being the correct size for my tank (ADA 60P) or the Nano which is for a bigger tank (90cm X 45cm X 45cm, 120cm X 45cm X 45cm . Capacity: up to 250L(Liter)?
> 
> Is there any harm in buying the bigger one? It's in stock and cheaper.



 Shouldn't be there are two mode on the nano, one for small tank and for large tanks...


----------



## James D

I dunno mate, that's why I asked.  . If that's the case then I know what to do!


----------



## Rob P

Get the Nano James and use on mode 1  

It's the cheapest unit anyway now it seems!


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,  





Trevor Pleco said:


> I presume you only know you need a replacement when you start seeing algae or does the diffuser simply stop spraying?


 It is somewhere earlier in the thread (just found it, page 9.), but I think the problem would be that the platinum/iridium (or similar) electrode (anode) will erode in use. Presumably you could increase their life time by having larger electrodes, but that would add more initial cost.
If you look at patent US6689262 it says:





> Microbubbles of oxygen.......When the anode and cathode are separated by a critical distance, very small microbubbles and nanobubbles of oxygen are generated. ....... The very small oxygen bubbles remain in suspension, forming a solution supersaturated in oxygen. The electrodes may be a metal or oxide of at least one metal selected from the group consisting of ruthenium, iridium, nickel, iron, rhodium, rhenium, cobalt, tungsten, manganese, tantalum, molybdenum, lead, titanium, platinum, palladium and osmium or oxides thereof. The electrodes may be formed into open grids or may be closed surfaces. The most preferred cathode is a stainless steel mesh. The most preferred mesh is a {fraction (1/16)} inch grid. The most preferred anode is platinum and iridium oxide on a support. .......


 cheers Darrel


----------



## NatureBoy

...I'm stunned how quickly people part with cash! I'd throw one in my tank for free to see what would happen, but that's the stage I'm at with this product...


----------



## Trevor Pleco

NatureBoy said:


> ...I'm stunned how quickly people part with cash! I'd throw one in my tank for free to see what would happen, but that's the stage I'm at with this product...


 


all reports and tests seem favourable.. once a success prices are bound to escalate and there are some good deals going at the moment as this product gets established , no point throwing just one into a 750L+ in my case, but take your point.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,





NatureBoy said:


> .I'm stunned how quickly people part with cash! I'd throw one in my tank for free to see what would happen, but that's the stage I'm at with this product...


I suppose it is "horses for courses", personally even if it "works" I wouldn't want one.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Rob P

I wonder why that is Darrel? In every aspect of things I do in my lifestyle that involve change you always find people who just deny that something new and good could come along and make a positive difference. Each to their own though, I've no issues with anyone's own views. 

Money wise I certainly think it's a fair amount of money to spend even at the reduced prices, but I've spent more on one night benders before now with nothing more to show for it than some dodgy memories and a super thick head the day after


----------



## three-fingers

I don't want one partly because nobody seems to know for sure how they work, and even if the current theories are correct, I don't think the benefits outweigh the aesthetic costs of having the relatively ugly (IMO) piece of kit in-tank, let alone the monetary costs. The only thing that does make me want to buy it is the shiny white, blue-glowing external part of the unit, just because I love shiny glowing things .

Mainly though, part of me is saying "if whatever is in that mist is bad for algae, it cant be good for beneficial microorganisms either". I'm also concerned about long-term accumulative effects of daily mistings on the fish and shrimp. Also I _like_ algae on rocks, just not on the glass or plants lol. However I'm following this thread with great interest hoping for more info, will be very interesting to see if this system stands the test of time, or is just a current fad!


----------



## Trevor Pleco

three-fingers said:


> I don't want one partly because nobody seems to know for sure how they work, and even if the current theories are correct, I don't think the benefits outweigh the aesthetic costs of having the relatively ugly (IMO) piece of kit in-tank, let alone the monetary costs. The only thing that does make me want to buy it is the shiny white, blue-glowing external part of the unit, just because I love shiny glowing things .
> 
> !


 
I think the same kind of thing was said when the first mobile phone came out and the toaster come to think of it 

Time will tell ....


----------



## Ian Holdich

And just think those mobile phones give you tumours...


I'm also still sitting on the fence with these, fair do's if people want them, it's their money. Just think you could rescape a tank for the money.


----------



## Mortis

I want to buy one. Anyone know if theres a good offer going on for the Nano ? The shop needs to do international delivery as Im in India


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,





Rob P said:


> I wonder why that is Darrel? In every aspect of things I do in my lifestyle that involve change you always find people who just deny that something new and good could come along and make a positive difference. Each to their own though, I've no issues with anyone's own views.


 I'd be the first to admit that I have a bit of a sceptical and "folk-singer" attitude towards new technology, but it really I think that that isn't the case in this example.





three-fingers said:


> Also I like algae on rocks,


 Same for me, I'm not an aquascaper and I'm not looking for an algae free tank, in fact quite the opposite I welcome some "periphyton" too. Having said that I would suspect that my tanks are pretty algae free compared to many others, and in some cases even with a low power microscope it is difficult to find much algae. I want stable long term set ups, and I'm pretty sure because of this I don't see BGA or Diatoms, (although they are there as epiphytes among the algal thread "stubble"). I think I would always have some BBA, but usually only on hard-scape surfaces that the snails can't get at. Stagshorn I've had once or twice, and I would associate this with organic pollution events.

The next question would be "how does it work"? and I think the jury must still be out on that, even if it does produce nano-bubbles. If you look at the images earlier in the thread you can see at least 2 types of green algae actually growing on the unit.




If it is an oxidator, we've been down that route before, and there are much easier ways of ensuring oxygenation. I would still be very, very surprised if these are a long term addition to the hobby.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Mortis

Ive managed to find a shop in HK that will ship. Now what about the other fish and shrimp models ? How are they producing different bubbles ?


----------



## Trevor Pleco

Mortis said:


> Ive managed to find a shop in HK that will ship. Now what about the other fish and shrimp models ? How are they producing different bubbles ?


 

Twinstar ship themselves, well they do to Africa


----------



## viktorlantos

We do run these units like 6 weeks ago aprox. But i can not believe how the hell this could look like this super algae covered like you have above.

The only explanation is that the owner throwed the unit into a heavy BGA infected tank and left there for a while.
We do use now 5 units. 2 in a very low tech environment and 3 in a high tech high light one.

if we keep the regular cleaning cycle which is 2-3 weeks there should not be any algae on the device.
This helps with some BGA like it did with us, but i can imagine if the tank has a loooots of BGA in it then the device will not help on a short term since BGA is quick grower.

Anyway just wanted to inform you that our white units almost algae free. The cleaning needed more for the efficiency


----------



## Vito

dw1305 said:


> If it is an oxidator, we've been down that route before, and there are much easier ways of ensuring oxygenation. I would still be very, very surprised if these are a long term addition to the hobby.
> 
> cheers Darrel



This is a very valid point an precisely why I haven't bought one yet, as I don't want to spend money on something I may already have, I have started to aerate the tank at at lights out since I first heard about this product a week ago by lifting the Lilly pipe enough to make some bubbles, this eliminates the surface scum which is great, water still becomes a little cloudy closer to W/C day.
I am still very interested in the product and I am keen to know if it prevents any algae build up on the glass pipes and tubes as I hate cleaning those things. Any way I will be waiting for a few more reviews until I shell out the cash.


----------



## Trevor Pleco

viktorlantos said:


> 3 in a high tech high light one.
> 
> Anyway just wanted to inform you that our white units almost algae free. The cleaning needed more for the efficiency


 
So you have three units working in one tank Viktor, what size tank is that and are things going well with this multi kit setup ?

I don't understand why they don't make black units, white being very conspicuous in our tanks and will of course attract algae compared to black. Having said this I have never seen a black ceramic Co2 diffuser I guess . Three of these white units in one tank is going to look a bit over the top, so is the main thing holding me up with my order as surely they will bring black ones out as a priority once this testing phase is over...


----------



## foxfish

You would think they would make one that produced black bubbles too ah Trevor


----------



## Trevor Pleco

foxfish said:


> You would think they would make one that produced black bubbles too ah Trevor


 

Now that would be mighty swell


----------



## James O

As a very noob, noob, I'd like to ask some basic questions if I may?  I am reading up on these things but this seemed like a discussion of the possible 'pinnacle' of modern algae defence 

From tank start up, when/why does algae first appear? There must be something awry, right? (I'm a month in on a non CO2 55l cube with no algae issues and I don't know what the hell I'm doing!!!!)
What were the pre twinstar options for dealing with algae as well as pro/cons if pos?
Why is twinstar preferable/better?

Thanks for enabling a spendy noob!!


----------



## viktorlantos

Trevor Pleco said:


> So you have three units working in one tank Viktor,


 
Nope 3 different high energy setup. 90x45x45 (HQI 150W), 60x30x36 (Aquasky 601), 60x30x36 (Aquasky 602 dual strip light)


----------



## foxfish

Well James, you could say the twinstar is just a gadget to amuse the more advanced scapers who have every thing including years of experience.
Ideal for someone who has mastered most of the more complex aspects revolving around keeping plants in a pristine volume of sparklingly clear water & don't want to disturb their work of art with a toothbrush. 
Perhaps the last step towards their goal... until the next interesting gadget appears on the market of course.


----------



## steveno

foxfish said:


> Well James, you could say the twinstar is just a gadget to amuse the more advanced scapers who have every thing including years of experience.
> Ideal for someone who has mastered most of the more complex aspects revolving around keeping plants in a pristine volume of sparklingly clear water & don't want to disturb their work of art with a toothbrush.
> Perhaps the last step towards their goal... until the next interesting gadget appears on the market of course.


 
Or perhaps somebody, who's not a pro. but knows the basics but hasn't the got time and a little lazy with maintenance...


----------



## Trevor Pleco

Agree, it makes life a little easier for the advanced scaper, where limits are pushed and perfection reached, so you can spend more time on other finer aspects of the decor, as the count down to the 1/250th of a second click approaches..

Imo, it's not designed for the newbie algae harvester, that spoils the fund and your advancement in the hobby, besides you will then be eating through a volume of replacement diffusers.


----------



## Trevor Pleco

viktorlantos said:


> Nope 3 different high energy setup. 90x45x45 (HQI 150W), 60x30x36 (Aquasky 601), 60x30x36 (Aquasky 602 dual strip light)


 
 thanks Viktor


----------



## Rob P

steveno said:


> Or perhaps somebody, who's not a pro. but knows the basics but hasn't the got time and a little lazy with maintenance...


 
I guess we're just not worthy   LOL


----------



## roadmaster

Wished they had these thing's when I kept "Sir Thomas".
Sir Thomas was a pet snapping turtle I kept for about a year.He was about  forty pound's of pure meanness and grew algae on his back.
He was not at all amused with my effort's at brushing his shell to remove the algae, and one had to keep on their toes when trying to do so lest a finger go the way of girlfriend's cat's ear.
The cat tried to swipe the food offered for the turtle.


----------



## Trevor Pleco

In their reptile division I understand Twinstar are developing a terrapin spar bath version, but sounds like Sir Thomas rather requires anger management guidance ..

I've gone through the same terrapin trauma and having to lubricate their shell with olive oil, so can sympathise.


----------



## NatureBoy

dw1305 said:


> If you look at the images earlier in the thread you can see at least 2 types of green algae actually growing on the unit.


at least it starts to blend in!


----------



## NatureBoy

James O said:


> As a very noob, noob, I'd like to ask some basic questions if I may? I am reading up on these things but this seemed like a discussion of the possible 'pinnacle' of modern algae defence
> 
> From tank start up, when/why does algae first appear? There must be something awry, right? (I'm a month in on a non CO2 55l cube with no algae issues and I don't know what the hell I'm doing!!!!)
> What were the pre twinstar options for dealing with algae as well as pro/cons if pos?
> Why is twinstar preferable/better?
> 
> Thanks for enabling a spendy noob!!


 
...more a discussion on the pinnacle of modern day marketing than algal control!

The fact that you don't have algae issues means you don't need to spend an extra £150 or whatever to not have algae issues, just celebrate that you don't have algae or reassure yourself and buy a twinstar and then you can solve all your non problems with that. Seriously though, it worries me that beginners will enter the hobby with the notion that along with filter, lighting, etc they need to buy an algae busting prop.

A great way to learn about algae is to follow the journals on here and see what others have done, there's so much info and so much of it conflicts and all is difficult to prove, so in reality you are, with no algae in your tank, as much an expert as anyone else! follow some low tech journals and keep up with whatever you are doing!


----------



## Trevor Pleco

There is algae and there is algae, each to his own . Everyone gets it to some degree, even the top pro competitive scapers get it I can assure you, when you push the boundaries and seek perfection it is difficult to avoid with rocks and cosmetic sand vulnerable areas.. so to make life a little easier I don't see a problem using this kit, but agree it's not designed for the floundering newbie, as mentioned in previous posts.


----------



## James O

Devils advocate asks "why is a noob with algae less worthy of this product than a 'pro' with algae?"


----------



## NatureBoy

James O said:


> Devils advocate asks "why is a noob with algae less worthy of this product than a 'pro' with algae?"


 
...because you already have to know how to combat algae before you can qualify for one!


----------



## OllieNZ

James O said:


> Devils advocate asks "why is a noob with algae less worthy of this product than a 'pro' with algae?"


I think the point is that there are ways of dealing with algae that all noobs should learn first. Pro scapers are often pushing things so hard certain algae are unavoidable and painstaking manual removal is the only way of dealing with it. The difference is that a pro scaper could easily sort the algae by other means because they have learned how, making this a useful tool. I think until you understand the basics cheating with somthing like this will only compound and create future issues once you decide to push the boundaries.


----------



## OllieNZ

Im not saying its for pros only just that noobs should understand the causes and solutions to algae before condsidering this sort of gadget


----------



## James O

Devils advocate asks "if pushing the boundaries is where the path leads/ends why trudge along it? Especially if this does work - you'll never have future algae issues anyway"


----------



## Rob P

Just #&@%/*+ buy one if you want one lol. It's £120 at the end of the day, like I've said before, you can easily slash that up the wall in one session


----------



## foxfish

There is nothing stopping anyone buying a twinstar , I would be interested to see if it helped a guy just starting out, of course it wont help with all nuisance algae or override any short comings with light, ferts, C02 or flow.


----------



## James O

At the moment I don't 'need' one. 

 If this is the start of a new way of working then what's to learn?  Its like saying you have to use a filter from 50yrs ago so you can better understand the bacterial absorption of ammonia etc. 

 I'm just surprised at some of the, um (without prejudice cos I love you guys) elitist comments (started with saying it can't work, now pros are all over it) toward this products use by noobs, that's all


----------



## steveno

Not sure what you are suggesting James... Lol, but Anything that makes this hobby easier, is a good thing isn't it, would it not make it more accessible to everybody, isn't that a good thing? Once a person becomes interested they can chose to learn more about their hobby... I've loss count of times I thought about giving up.


----------



## OllieNZ

I wouldnt say its elitist merely trying to point out that this is not a required piece of kit. How many noobs spend ££££ on lights only to be told to reduce the intensity.


----------



## James O

Oh I'm very much saying its a good thing available to all. Pros are the pioneers and the trickle down effect 'May' be a wonderful future for all.  In a few years time, when this thread is long forgotten, people might not even think about it -'heater, pump, CO2, fizzy algae killer.....maybe, maybe not 

And I still love you guys  Not to undersell it, you have opened my eyes!!!!!


----------



## NatureBoy

James O said:


> At the moment I don't 'need' one.
> 
> If this is the start of a new way of working then what's to learn? Its like saying you have to use a filter from 50yrs ago so you can better understand the bacterial absorption of ammonia etc.
> 
> I'm just surprised at some of the, um (without prejudice cos I love you guys) elitist comments (started with saying it can't work, now pros are all over it) toward this products use by noobs, that's all


 
thing is, nothing is really known for sure about this product, the majority of feedback is from pros that can deal with algae with or without the kit...but they find it useful. The manufacturer goes to lengths to explain you have to do a lot right yourself to stave off algae, so it's not a magic device. This is the key message, people doubt whether this thing will work for beginners, not that you can't have it! they just don't want to see people throwing another £120 at a hobby that could be better spent elsewhere. As more info comes to light then people will change their stance. In the meantime a healthy dose of caution is a fair starting point, unless you don't mind blowing £120 just to see


----------



## Rob P

NatureBoy said:


> unless you don't mind blowing £120 just to see



I'll go with that lol


----------



## James O

Hehehe you can't come into this without at the very least, a decent wad or decent credit card, a very understanding significant other and strong floors


----------



## steveno

I was an early adopter, so cost abit more for me, but I saw the benefits victor had... People blow a lot of money on a ADA tanks, nothing wrong with that,  (I got my tank from eBay, very cheaply) you could chose to spend a lot less and get a similar glass tank, and use the left over money to buy the twinstar. Ether way I'm happy with my purchase, and for the first think about what to do next rather than what I been doing wrong. Lol


----------



## foxfish

In that case James, add to your list these specialist pieces of equipment that could, or might, help you obtain the ultimate tank!

A £500 reg, a pump powered, recirculating, 100cm high reactor, a pump powered overflow box & sealed sump & trickle tower, auto fert dosing pump system or computerised LED lighting etc.... all these products have their followers & believers but are not necessary.... or perhaps they are for some folk!
A light covering of algae on the hardscape can be very appealing to many of us & for those people - a twinstar is unnecessary!


----------



## Rob P

And a wonderful tank you have Steveno  even if you have got there by 'cheating'  lol


----------



## steveno

Thxs rob! No such thing as cheating in this hobby lol...


----------



## James O

Oh yes there is........

"You mean you're NOT using your feet to aquascape? CHEATER!!!!"


----------



## steveno

foxfish said:


> In that case James, add to your list these specialist pieces of equipment that could, or might, help you obtain the ultimate tank!
> 
> A £500 reg, a pump powered, recirculating, 100cm high reactor, a pump powered overflow box & sealed sump & trickle tower, auto fert dosing pump system or computerised LED lighting etc.... all these products have their followers & believers but are not necessary.... or perhaps they are for some folk!
> A light covering of algae on the hardscape can be very appealing to many of us & for those people - a twinstar is unnecessary!



I actually agree with you foxfish...a little algae can look appealing. But it can very quickly become out if control if you not on top of it. 

There's no denying it this hobby isn't cheap, but as rob has pointed out you could easy spend a lot on a night out. With regard to twinstar I just chose not go out a few nights to cover cost...


----------



## NatureBoy

compared to spending cash obtaining forgotten conversation, questionable antics and a mother of a hangover, any buying decision can be justified 

I dispute you need bags of cash for this hobby too...aquarist classified, gumtree, etc...pick up a decent aquarium complete with t5 lights, heater, external filter, etc etc for £250 any day of the week, CO2 set up for £60, mud from great outdoors, all gives as good results as gucci brand new


----------



## flygja

Someone should send a unit to Tom Barr so he can get his labs to analyse it to the death!


----------



## roadmaster

Eliminate the root causes known to encourage algae and it's proliferation.
Too much light for too long,poor/unstable CO2 distribution, Nutrient deficencies,poor maint,poor planning when increasing or decreasing light,CO2,Fert routine.
These are the thing's that I was told to study,observe, when I first began planted tank in earnest,.
Choose a method and learn it well was another suggestion (ie) high tech,low tech,or Hybrid of one or the other.
With patience,researching,help from expert's, comes full understanding as to what will benefit the plant's with particular method ,and what is likely to be a detriment.
Then the device in question becomes just another must have like the latest Ipod,smart phone,tablet,etc. 
Opinion's vary but this is mine FWIW.


----------



## viktorlantos

roadmaster said:


> Eliminate the root causes known to encourage algae and it's proliferation.
> Too much light for too long,poor/unstable CO2 distribution, Nutrient deficencies,poor maint,poor planning when increasing or decreasing light,CO2,Fert routine.
> These are the thing's that I was told to study,observe, when I first began planted tank in earnest,.
> Choose a method and learn it well was another suggestion (ie) high tech,low tech,or Hybrid of one or the other.
> With patience,researching,help from expert's, comes full understanding as to what will benefit the plant's with particular method ,and what is likely to be a detriment.
> Then the device in question becomes just another must have like the latest Ipod,smart phone,tablet,etc.
> Opinion's vary but this is mine FWIW.


 
It's a good point, but only works if you have time and you can be there with your tank for looooong hours to observe different things. Daily checks etc.
What if you study somewhere or travels a lot? Or you just do not have that much time because the kids needs you. Or work. Or you have it in your office. Or the office has it and the maintenance crew is not there every day to make observations and make adjustments.

There are many different scenarios not just when we all sit next to the tank and operate it. That is the easy part even if it sound hard for some.

Not this device will solve the issue alone, but this is the field which created the demand i guess.
Many people use bread maker and not make bread in the oven. That is how the life changed and even if we like it or not this hobby needs many stuffs which makes our life easier.


----------



## Aquadream

Everything works well up to a point. But the one thing that works best is a basic understanding of aquatic life. When one gets to the aquatic basics will realize that a planted aquarium would not even need an external canister, much less of any other expensive junk.
Example. Two months old tank. 15 litres. DIY LED 6000K made from LED strips, nothing fancy. 1 year old Shirakura substrate used for growing CRS. Well packed with CRS poo. Only a hand full of Amazonia (older type) just to rise the back level a bit.
The rest is on the picture.
No aquascape here, no fancy kind of anything, but damn perfect plants.





Sure. The cool guys will say - but the HC is not dense enough, but too little plants for two months, but if, but when, but, but etc. etc.
All in all just to get you to buy all of the cool dude crap.


----------



## roadmaster

viktorlantos said:


> It's a good point, but only works if you have time and you can be there with your tank for looooong hours to observe different things. Daily checks etc.
> What if you study somewhere or travels a lot? Or you just do not have that much time because the kids needs you. Or work. Or you have it in your office. Or the office has it and the maintenance crew is not there every day to make observations and make adjustments.
> 
> There are many different scenarios not just when we all sit next to the tank and operate it. That is the easy part even if it sound hard for some.
> 
> Not this device will solve the issue alone, but this is the field which created the demand i guess.
> Many people use bread maker and not make bread in the oven. That is how the life changed and even if we like it or not this hobby needs many stuffs which makes our life easier.


 
 Well,,if you travel a lot,don't have time  to tweak,adjust,then low tech method would be my choice rather than high tech.
As mentioned,,choose a method that fit's your lifestyle.
Basic's are the same for both method's when it comes to algae prevention in my view.


----------



## steveno

Hello All,

Well i thought i would add since i have had devise install for a month now, with exception for a few dots on the glass i've not notice a return of any green algea on my rocks,plant and even below substrate, but strangely the shells of my two assassin snails is covered in green hair algea. I would love to know how it targets algeas on certainly element and not of others?. 

Just weekly water changes and a quick once over on glass and that all, maintenance would be a breeze if it wasn't for the increase in plant growth, I'm now having to mow down my HC weekly, which is a b***h to remove, but than might beacuse if fully established now. My bonsia seem to growth a good few cm each week they are now as tall the largest stone. While i'm happy that my plant growth is great, maintenance has now become a bit of a chore again ...lol!


----------



## Rob P

Can you just not turn the lights down a bit to slow up the growth  lol


----------



## three-fingers

steveno said:


> Hello All,
> I would love to know how it targets algeas on certainly element and not of others?.


Wouldn't we all! Personally I'm sceptical that it actually does much, and worried that even if it does, this same action on algae cells will affect beneficial bacteria cells on all the tanks surfaces, exposed plant roots and any beneficial bacteria living on the fish. Why wouldn't it? The manufacturer doesn't comment here.

I mean, is there really that much difference between algae on a rock and algae on a snails shell? What is its about using a snails shell as growing medium that saves the algae cells from destruction? And how come algae can easily grow on the diffuser unit, but not on rocks? Figuring this out may be the key to figuring out what's in those bubbles and how the unit works, or doesn't.

I'd consider my hobbies to be fish keeping/plant growing more than aquascaping, so the potential risks of adding an unknown element to the tank outweigh the benefits hugely from my point of view, especially since I've seen the crazy things people have added to their tanks in the past. I like to think I'm somewhat familiar with the risks of adding a chemical before I subject my livestock to it, be it gas, liquid or powder. The long term chronic effect on fish, inverts and microorganisms is what I'm concerned with.

Maybe worth the cost if you like sterile looking rocks though, rocks rarely look like this in nature IME, above or below water, and I know how my livestock prefer the rocks too lol.

From a marketing point of view, this product is fascinating but a tad worrying for a consumer like me. I love how when you click on "experiment" on their website, it just links to pics of users tanks like Viktors (which, of course, looks great). Thanks Twinstar, that's exactly what I was looking for when I clicked on "experiment"  .

A lot of money for a device with, so far as what's been proven up until now, essentially subjective results IMO.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,





three-fingers said:


> What is its about using a snails shell as growing medium that saves the algae cells from destruction? And how come algae can easily grow on the diffuser unit, but not on rocks?


I'm pretty sure it is lack of grazing pressure on the snail shell, you get this with limpets in rock-pools, where the rock pool just has a covering of crustose coralline algae, but the limpet shells themselves have a lush growth of _Fucus_, _Ulva_ and filamentous (_Ceramium etc._) and thallose (_Palmeria_)  red algae. This is purely because the limpets can't graze their own shells.

There is a good picture on the MarLIN _Patella vulgata_ page <MarLIN - The Marine Life Information Network>, (one of the thumbnails).




I only get BBA in some tanks growing on the filter sponges, and I think this is because the Ramshorn Snails don't graze on the sponges.

cheers Darrel


----------



## three-fingers

Good point, that would seem to be the case! I've noticed this on my nerite snails in the past, the only place the GSA grows is on their shells lol. Not as pretty as that marine macroalgae above though lol.

If this is the case, it would suggest to me that the unit isn't doing that much...


----------



## Mortis

I think ill hold off buying one for a month or so until a few more people put up their reviews. Also eagerly waiting for Tom Barr and Ceg to get in on this


----------



## darren636

Why ISNT it known what it ACTUALLY does?


----------



## George Farmer

Guys,

I've deleted the last few posts because I don't want this thread to descend into personal insults.  You know the rules. If you don't, please read them. They're posted at the top of every page.

Please post in a constructive manner.

Cheers
George


----------



## Rob P

Maybe we could have a Twinstar users thread? 

Mine tipped up from TGM earlier today and since i did a major filter/pipe clean just yesterday I've put it in already. They could do some work on the art of concealment lol, not the prettiest thing ever, but appears to be working well where i have it placed


----------



## darren636

Rob P said:


> Maybe we could have a Twinstar users thread?
> 
> but appears to be working well where i have it placed


 how do you know?  What does it all mean? Is anybody out there?


----------



## Gary Nelson

Yes I've had mine in about 3 days now and i did my water change earlier... The tank glass hardly dirty this time?! Seems to be doing something 
On a plus side, my Mrs loves it!  She loves the mist underwater... I told her if I got the bigger tank I'm looking at, then we could have 2 running!


----------



## Rob P

Dunno Darren but I like the bubbles too lol, so do my fish


----------



## steveno

Welcome to the club Rob, Gary...

Hope it works as well it has done for me... certainly making a differance and keeping my tank spotless even if cheating


----------



## John S

Anybody running an UP inline with one of these, and is the tank now swamped with bubbles?


----------



## Gary Nelson

John S said:


> Anybody running an UP inline with one of these, and is the tank now swamped with bubbles?


The mist from the twinstar only comes on for about 15-20 seconds and is dissolved in less than a minute.... So it is not really that bad


----------



## John S

Thanks Gary.


----------



## Rob P

Questions/observations to other users 

Found the 1st 24hrs interesting. DC the morning following day of installation was solid blue, first time it's been back to blue on a morning.

Water definitely clearer. Fish more active (some quite frisky behaviour from my P. Ivantsoffi rainbows and BP tetras that they haven't exhibited to such an extent for a while). Plants appeared to pearl more (although could be combination of micro bubbles/CO2 bubbles collecting underside of leaves but I was looking closely at plants away from the usual significant bubble collection spots).

Did a PH profile yesterday. Dropped from 7.4 starting to 6.4 at lights on, but after co2 switched off at 7.45pm (lights start ramping down at 9.20pm for 55 mins) it climbed quicker than usual, by 9.15 it was 6.7 and 10pm 6.9. It's always held a point down til after lights off.

It makes me wonder, i'd already increased surface agitation recently to help keep the fish unaffected. I'm inclined to just switch the gas timer to stay on an extra 30 minutes as I prefer (and think my stock does too) more surface agitation with a higher bubble rate, albeit I know it uses more gas but i'm less concerned about that. I'm getting a consistent PH drop of 1 point with no noticeable effect on fauna.

Comments on the unit itself. I'd much prefer a black diffuser with black cable, 2 or 3 small in tank cable suckers to tidy the cable up, and think it would be better with the control unit having power in at the bottom and diffuser out at the top, making it inline, which would help provide a neater installation (for my application anyway  lol).

Rob


----------



## plantbrain

viktorlantos said:


> It's a good point, but only works if you have time and you can be there with your tank for looooong hours to observe different things. Daily checks etc.
> What if you study somewhere or travels a lot? Or you just do not have that much time because the kids needs you. Or work. Or you have it in your office. Or the office has it and the maintenance crew is not there every day to make observations and make adjustments.
> 
> There are many different scenarios not just when we all sit next to the tank and operate it. That is the easy part even if it sound hard for some.
> 
> Not this device will solve the issue alone, but this is the field which created the demand i guess.
> Many people use bread maker and not make bread in the oven. That is how the life changed and even if we like it or not this hobby needs many stuffs which makes our life easier.


 

Well, I know what a bread maker does and how it works.
This?

Once you know this, then you are not limited to just buying their products.
I've long believed in understanding the BASICS about WHY something works and ask myself does this help horticulture?
Or does it just make another one of the many algae cure all hucksters a few more $??

Excel, Glut etc, it at least grows plants.

I agree with the point of another management tool to help with algae.
But if you have algae, well, you need to do some work elsewhere.
That's never changed since I've been in the hobby, algae cure alls? About once a year a new one comes down the pipe.
In 5-10 more years, I'd be curious to know folk's opinions.

What does it do?
There's a few options: electrolysis= low level O2/O3 production. There's a mist/gas coming off. 
O3 is pretty effective at low levels, but toxic at higher levels.
Given the unit is electric and is plugged in.........

ozone;sanitation;ozonated water;ozone water;ozone generator;disinfection;clean drinking water

Electrolysis of a carbon block(Carbo plus), similar to the old CO2 device here:

Carbo plus CO2 - Google Search

There's not too many other gases left to add to the water really.
We have CO2, O2 and O3. O2 is tough to dissolve into warmer water.
Like Excel, Glutaraldehyde, O3 at lower non lethal levels may be the root cause.
If you place the Twinstar into a small glass of water and sniff after a few minutes, there should be a faint bleach smell if it's O3.
You can test this yourselves. Or use a O3 test kit. Marine folks use it for skimming. I do not though for any of the reefs I've worked on.

We also can say based on the responses about disease prevention, that it's basically low level O3 additions.
When you produce O3, a lot of the by products are singlet Oxygen and O2.
This type of thing seems to go against the basic gardening approaches the Dutch suggested and the Japanese gardener's also suggest: good consistent basic plant care.
I have a hard time arguing that should not be the focus for hobbyists. Nothing else has really offered me much more success in growing planted tanks than that simple approach.

I've tried many products, I may try this one just to put to bed the critics or convince myself that it has a decent application as a management tool or it may be inconclusive.
What I gather, it has no impact on BBA. Green algae are VERY easy to manage. Which is the only algae they suggest it is effective for.

So..........I see little utility. I have started up a number of nice sized tanks recently, no green algae issues. No twinstar, just go basic stuff, the SAME general advice that ADA also suggest. 
Does it have an impact on shrimp or livestock over time? Adding O3 to more sensitive livestock such as invertebrates has not been addressed.


----------



## plantbrain

alanyusupov said:


> Also find out on Russian forum about Twinstar
> 
> or ozone or hydrogen but hardly hydrogen .. probably ozone ..
> Previously, the manufacturer makes ozone generators, but to adjust the speed of the ozone supply was not possible, and now switched to see a new way of ozone supply ...
> An interesting device to understand what's inside, so most can be done?


 

I just put the sucker together, it's O3 at low levels.

You can use a O3 test kit and confirm?


----------



## plantbrain

To test this: use a redox probe, or an O2 meter. Redox is a standard measure used to control O3 in marine tanks.
A similar system could be used to specifically target a set rise in redox.

An O3 generator is not much and a redox controller would offer far better control than say 90-150 liters sized tanks etc.
Also, you could plug the twin star into a Redox controller and use mV to adjust.
This would greatly optimize the usage to a specific users tank and to optimize the Redox values that work best across a wide range of aquariums.

That is better knowledge than "buy our product, it works". Maybe I'm all wrong and someone has a better argument for me about this? I'm all ears. 

So there's 3-4 ways to test this.

And to make it even better, wider ranging. Lying to everyone about it never helps. 
Knowledge, not some product were they never give you any answers.........
I have a tough time supporting such companies.


----------



## Monk d'Wally de Honk

Excellent posts Plantbrain, I have no idea about it, or a particular like/dislike or a particular need of it either, but agree wholeheartedly about the company ethos.


----------



## ghostsword

Want to get rid of algae? Practice good plant and aquarium husbandry... simple..

Also, algae not that bad...


----------



## darren636

Algae ate my hamster!


----------



## Rob P

Question to Twinstar users 

Are people cleaning the diffuser part every two to three weeks as per instructions? What are you using to do this if you are? (UK folk that is, or UK obtainable!! ).

At the minute I just disconnect and whip the diffuser out every week and wipe the plastic part down and the cable, seems to get minor covering similar to glass but good as new after a wipe  Not done anything with the mesh part though.

I'm 2 weeks in with this now, no green algae in tank at all. Left my red coloured rocks uncleaned when I installed it to see if it had an effect. These rocks have never self cleaned lol and usually been removed every 6/8 weeks, scrubbed then replaced. They had a covering of brown algae/diatoms when TS put in. The rocks that receive the most exposure to bubbles from Twinstar are pretty clean now  ones on the other side of the tank cleaning up but slower, which leads me to diffuser placement...

Anyone else using with just a rear spraybar? I'm tempted to pop the diffuser (stuck with just one cup since it's only geared for corner mounting) in the centre of the rear as one side of my tank definitely gets less bubble coverage than the other.

But generally, the tank looks MILES cleaner and clearer than it once did, however I do accept i've also put lots of effort into fundamentals (co2, flow, ferts etc) so combination of all things helping things look positive


----------



## John S

How are people getting on with this?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Simon jones

I bought one today. There is a definite high pitched noise while it's running. I'm betting it's some sort of sonic device.


----------



## Aquadream

After reading all the comments I gather the Twinstar is very likely an O2 or O3 supplier. No more. Well, the same job at start up does 1 drop per liter from 3% solution of H2O2 (about 1.5-2 ppm every day) or good enough aeration at night (like ADA suggests). Oh, and of course good care of the tank at start up, water changes, frets routine, CO2 ....all the usual, but that's boring.

All said is good unless we are looking for the "saviour" of our tank. That miracle, which is going to deliver us from the green misery. This is what many want to hear and it is what they are paying all the big bucks for - the buzz in the ears.

It is curious how much perfection folks want from a planted tank and how little they are prepared to do about it.

This is one case in, which money can not buy everything. Not this time.
It does not matter how well the tank will start up with the Twinstar. If the following maintenance is incorrect sooner or later the tank will explode in troubles. Have no doubt about it.


----------



## plantbrain

Simon jones said:


> I bought one today. There is a definite high pitched noise while it's running. I'm betting it's some sort of sonic device.


 

Sonication is well documented on it's impact on algae, but does little on epiphtyic algae which is really the only issues planted hobbyists might ever have other than Green water which is easily addressed via UV sterilizer.
The electric arc produced by O3 generators also can make noises. We used a large sonication device in a large aquarium, it did nothing for the client's algae.

LG Sonic Algae control. Algae removal by ultrasonic in lakes, cooling towers ponds

I can assure folks, having used the larger model, this has a LOT more power than the twinstar could EVER add to an aquarium.
Now if that did not work..........It have strong doubts here. Their own comments give t away that it is O3 via the redox and O2 levels. That is also what the parent company is known for making. 

Get a redox probe and measure the redox before you use it and after.
Sonication will not cause a rise in Redox mv.


----------



## sanj

I am wondering how effective it might be against fish disease?


----------



## viktorlantos

sanj said:


> I am wondering how effective it might be against fish disease?


 
Tried the super s on a fish rack with an import shipment. Worked well. But that is only a sterilizer. Seems like a good replacement of the UV.


----------



## viktorlantos

Rob P said:


> Are people cleaning the diffuser part every two to three weeks as per instructions? What are you using to do this if you are?


 
If you have ADA Superge for glass diffuser cleaning that should do the work. Make sure to not use product like JBL Power Clean which should not be used with metal things
Or use the solution what the manual recommend.


----------



## Martin in Holland

I love the mist coming from my Twinstar also, maybe one of us could make a volcano and using the TS to make smoke coming out from it's mouth...wouldn't that look cool


----------



## Martin in Holland

I'm sometimes thinking of making a smoking volcano out of it.....


----------



## harryH

Sounds like a smoking volcano is a good idea OR if it resonates high pitch why not use it as a mouse/spider deterrent?


----------



## sanj

viktorlantos said:


> Tried the super s on a fish rack with an import shipment. Worked well. But that is only a sterilizer. Seems like a good replacement of the UV.


 
Potentially it could be better, since UV only has an impact on the water column. The downside is that it must have some impact on beneficial bacteria aswell?

I dont really understand what makes a model suitable for algae and one for disease? If Super S is on a more powerful setting should it not have impact on both algae and micro organisms of a certain size.


----------



## flygja

Could it be creating hydroxyl ions? I was introduced to an Ocean Free Hydra 30 internal filter which generates hydroxyl ions which oxidises ammonia. Just wonder if the lowering of ammonia is helping with algae issues. Here's a (not too favourable) review on PFK - Review: Ocean Free Hydra 30 internal filter | Video | Practical Fishkeeping


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





flygja said:


> Could it be creating hydroxyl ions?


 Assuming that is really hydroxide rather than hydroxyl, it could. They would raise the pH (O-H), and are a strong oxidising agent. However, this is really back to the ozone argument, why would you want to add it to the aquarium? and if you did you could always add a small amount of "caustic soda" (NaOH) instead.  





Rob P said:


> DC the morning following day of installation was solid blue, first time it's been back to blue on a morning. Water definitely clearer. Fish more active (some quite frisky behaviour from my P. Ivantsoffi rainbows and BP tetras that they haven't exhibited to such an extent for a while)


 The colour change is caused by the higher pH, but my suspicion would be that this is an oxygen (O2) rather than a hydroxide (O-H) effect (re; the perkier fish).

cheers Darrel


----------



## Trevor Pleco

I remember George was testing our the Twinstar a month or two back, have I missed the report back ?


----------



## Rob P

Trevor Pleco said:


> I remember George was testing our the Twinstar a month or two back, have I missed the report back ?



Sssh, didn't you realise? Once you have one you're in a secret club  lol


----------



## zanguli-ya-zamba

Hi guys,

so yesterday night after seeing a post of George in Facebook where he says using twinstar in his new NA tank, I started being curious about the device because if George is using it, it must have some positive actions. So this thread came to my mind. I started reading it from the first page, and fioooouuuu it was  long but very interesting. so I went trough the web and noticed that more and more people start using it, and even big names of aquascaping do so. It should work if we have positive feedback.
As I am facing in my last three set up a diatom problem covering all my plants and my hardscape without finding my way out of this battle.
I know the device will not resolve the problem at the root, but I wanted to know if someone have already tried it on this brown algae that is very annoying ? And if there is benefic result for that type of algae
I am really interested in buying this thing, and perform some tests and report it on the community
.
Can we already find replacement disc for it ?

best regards guys


----------



## Rob P

zanguli-ya-zamba said:


> but I wanted to know if someone have already tried it on this brown algae that is very annoying ? And if there is benefic result for that type of algae


 
Welllllllllllllll... lol. I pretty much battled all green algaes in my tank successfully before Twinstar and only issues i had remaining when I started using it were brown algae on rocks and some browing leaves. I purposely left rocks uncleaned when I started using it and now, 3-4 weeks later, my rocks are not brown. Some result is without doubt attributable to TS, however sometime into this period i also increased flow and added algae eating critters (Otos/Amanos) and these have helped also.

I believe forum member 'Martin in China' has had TS in his new tank from the start and this has not prevented a serious diatom outbreak for which he has just done a blackout 

So, it's inconclusive but for me personally I think a combination of good husbandry, good/improved fundamentals, algae eaters + TS has given me (for the first time in 5 months) an algae free tank


----------



## zanguli-ya-zamba

Rob P said:


> Welllllllllllllll... lol. I pretty much battled all green algaes in my tank successfully before Twinstar and only issues i had remaining when I started using it were brown algae on rocks and some browing leaves. I purposely left rocks uncleaned when I started using it and now, 3-4 weeks later, my rocks are not brown. Some result is without doubt attributable to TS, however sometime into this period i also increased flow and added algae eating critters (Otos/Amanos) and these have helped also.
> 
> I believe forum member 'Martin in China' has had TS in his new tank from the start and this has not prevented a serious diatom outbreak for which he has just done a blackout
> 
> So, it's inconclusive but for me personally I think a combination of good husbandry, good/improved fundamentals, algae eaters + TS has given me (for the first time in 5 months) an algae free tank


 
Thanks for your answer mate. I really want to give a shot to the TS, to tell the truth I want to do an impulsive move and buy it lol.
to tell the truth I am actually on on line store just waiting to push on the ok button of my wish list.

thanks again


----------



## Rob P

If you can afford it and want to try it then why not? At worse you've wasted £120/£130.

If you ask me if it is miracle cure? I say no. Has it helped? Yes, i'm pretty sure it has 

I think most importantly it has allowed me to experiment more with the fundamentals, bit less light, bit more light, bit more gas, bit less gas etc etc without much change to stability of tank.

And i'm as far away from a pro scaper as it gets  lol, but simple things like not having to remove hardscape to scrub clean etc has allowed me that extra time to focus on hardware placement and dialling stuff in, which is the 'help' I was looking for from it to be honest


----------



## Martin in Holland

I am still using my TS and even though I had/have brown algae I don't seem to have any other algae types so far and The glass stayes alot cleaner, but I also added 6 more oto's...I don't have any shrimp in this tank because they got attaced by my cardinals and riped apart


----------



## Monk d'Wally de Honk

You could try the old fashioned approach.

Algae issues are a sign of an inbalance in the system, and there are quite a few articles and posts on here that point you in the right direction. Brown algae is a result of too much light, or more specifically an inbalance between the light/nutrient/co2 levels. 
Try shortening the photoperiod if they are on for long, dimming the lights if they are dimmable, raising them from the water if possible, or placing a diffusing sheet between lights and water.

All that striving for a perfect looking tank, expensive (breakable) glassware, days or weeks deliberating over rock placement and then you stick something in there that looks like a My Little Pony hairdryer.


----------



## darren636

Vrenaks big fake out.


----------



## Rob P

Monk d'Wally de Honk said:


> You could try the old fashioned approach.
> 
> Algae issues are a sign of an inbalance in the system, and there are quite a few articles and posts on here that point you in the right direction. Brown algae is a result of too much light, or more specifically an inbalance between the light/nutrient/co2 levels.
> Try shortening the photoperiod if they are on for long, dimming the lights if they are dimmable, raising them from the water if possible, or placing a diffusing sheet between lights and water.
> 
> All that striving for a perfect looking tank, expensive (breakable) glassware, days or weeks deliberating over rock placement and then you stick something in there that looks like a My Little Pony hairdryer.


 
I get your points, really I do but it's not always that straight forward. Victor Lantos pointed out a while ago that it's easy to work on the causes of imbalance as you have suggested, IF you have much time to tinker with your tank like a full time tank babysitter! (edit - and have all the knowledge). But not everybody does. As I've also mentioned, in my circumstances it has given me leeway to work on the imbalances over a bit more time whilst not exacerbating a negative situation.

You have to weigh the benefits and negatives against each other and I can tell you from experience that I have been getting FAR more pleasure coming home from work every evening of late and seeing my tank looking healthy, growing, clean and free from algae - partly attributable to TS no doubt. It's much more pleasurable than coming home faced with yet another scrubbing/pruning session followed by massive water changes every other day of the week!

You can soon learn to look over a 2 inch white disk sat in the corner!! (and most users like the mass of bubbles it sends out anyway  lol)


----------



## Monk d'Wally de Honk

I do get that, but there's really no need to babysit, changes happen relatively slowly. Make a small change, have another look in a few days, or a week. If there's no improvement go a bit further until there is.


All the solutions are on here and fairly easy to find, I have no expertise in anything related to aquaculture but luckily there are a few people on here that really do. Maybe I've just had it easy with my tanks. The only real algae problems I had was when my tank crashed last christmas*. A power cut that lasted a day froze my fish in their small tank, and when I came in a week later the entire tank was a green smelly box. I never needed to fight the algae rather than break it all down and start from scratch.

*I gave you my heart, etc etc.


----------



## Rob P

Monk d'Wally de Honk said:


> I do get that, but there's really no need to babysit, changes happen relatively slowly. Make a small change, have another look in a few days, or a week. If there's no improvement go a bit further until there is


 
But I was in a situation once over where my plants were being consumed by the 'orrible stuff in DAYS, so leaving it wasn't really an option. It's extremely disheartening to have to rip stuff out you'd only recently paid £'s for, even after making an adjustment (such as turning lighting right down or gas up to a level where it killed your fish ). 



Monk d'Wally de Honk said:


> All the solutions are on here and fairly easy to find,


 
Totally agree. I'd be in a black hole by now (and more than likely have sacked it all off) if it hadn't been for UKAPS, especially Clive. Very fortunate to have sites and people like this  Info gained here has led to me investing many many hours and pounds, but ultimately got me closer to being able to not have a 'My Little Pony Hairdryer' in my tank maybe  But TS has helped lol



Monk d'Wally de Honk said:


> I have no expertise in anything related to aquaculture but luckily there are a few people on here that really do. Maybe I've just had it easy with my tanks


 
Maybe you're just naturally talented? (I love your studio tank btw, it inspired me to try Blyxa in my moderately hard water recently - massive FAIL btw!! lol  ).

It's a very confusing hobby at the best of times and seems different for everyone. There's experienced folk who seem to use significant lighting levels from the start, in tank co2 diffusers, aesthetically preferable lily pipes and can achieve a yellow DC in an hour with 3bps! etc and have zero issue with algae or fauna unless there is a known reason like equipment failure (either that or they are not telling us ), whilst others are using 'better' diffusion methods, massive flow, hardly any light and full EI for example and everything seems fine yet still run into problems in the blink of an eye. How can this be possible?!?! lol 

It does seem strange that quite a few people, experienced people included, have bought this device but not many talk about it, like there's some kind of 'shame' attached to it?


----------



## Monk d'Wally de Honk

It's a Sha-a-ame, the way you messing with my Twinstar.
It's a shame the way you play with my osmosis.
It's a Sha-a-ame, the way you messing with my Twinstar.
You're like a child at play. With My Little Ponay.
And you pay with bucks, but then you throw them away.


----------



## Rob P

Too early in the day to be drinking  lol


----------



## James O

Rob P said:


> Too early in the day to be drinking  lol


With rythme like that who needs drink?

And anyway 1130 is on a wet and windy Thursday.  Is it my round?!?!?


----------



## Rob P

James O said:


> And anyway 1130 is on a wet and windy Thursday. Is it my round?!?!?


 
Yep of course if you're buying!  Make mine a Stella


----------



## Rob P

Man I can't believe i'm posting this but made me chortle reading it back 

Best Gloria Gaynor voices now 

At first I was afraid I got algae’fied
Kept thinking I could never achieve clean tank by sofa side
But then I spent so many nights
Doing great big water change
And I grew strong
And I learnt how to get along
Now Twinstars here
From outer space
I just walked in to find you bubbling and fish with happy face
I should have changed that short spray bar
I should have added more KN03
If I've known for just one second you'd turn up to bother me
Go algae go, walk out the door
Turn black and die now
'Cause you're not welcome anymore
Weren't you the one who tried to cause strain on my eye
Do you think I'd crumble
Did you think I'd lay down and die?
Oh no not I!


----------



## Monk d'Wally de Honk

Bravo!!*



*How many Stella's?


----------



## James O

I think he's a few pints ahead of us.......

Rob mate, stop singing!  It's not even karaoke night......


----------



## Martin in Holland

I'm in Korea at the moment and I feel that this song fits right in that KTV bar I visited last night....


----------



## viktorlantos

Not reported a while ago, but probably a good idea after months of use. How i feel about that, where we used, am i still happy or not, did Twinstar won in every case or not....

If you hate readings i have to say this is a happy ending story. Sorry to others 

So where do i start.... As i wrote in the past we started to use this device months ago. I was in a lucky position to have this run in multiple tanks at the same time with different scenarios and tank sizes.
Some of the tanks were reported here some came after that and i not published them one by one. I have to tell we do sell this device in our country before someone feels that i am pushing because of this.
I jumped early to this train after i had a nice chat with Dave Chow in Japan. He is a skilled pro scaper and he mentioned at that time why he likes this, and how this become his maintenance tool.
And he was right. If we would have the same chat by now i would say we experienced the same result in the past months like he did after months of use. Makes the life easier.

Why i mentioned that we do sell this? Because i was interested about what my clients say, how the device works in so many scenarios. And now i got feedback from more than 60 scapers which is a good data.
But before i jump to that here is what we experienced just in the past weeks/months:

*180L tank 1:*

Originally we had success on a 180L tank. Where the device cleaned all kinds of algae from plants, dragon stones and killed the BGA too.
What happened since we removed Twinstar a few months ago? Plants stayed algae free. Stone never get algae since then which is a big surprise as i thought will be green after a month or so. But 2.5 months later this is still free of any algae no need to brush. BGA came back, but this was for 2 reason. The tank is an old one. The HC floating carpet is a magnet for BGA. And around Cristmas we were closed for a week when no fertilizers were added and we knew we will have algae issues like BGA.
Still the tank performs well and i feels like it was sterilized at the time we used the device here.


TWINSTAR TEST 1 done - 90x45x45 - Passed by viktorlantos, on Flickr

*60L tank:*

We had a 60L tank with Aquasky 602 light (super powerful light). There we had a lot of hair algae on the carpet parvula mini after planting, and hair also on the top of the stems. We used Rotala Sp Vitenam and this act like Rotala Wallichii when you trim it.
Here the carpet cleaned and the stems also. The tank is running without any algae since that time. We removed the Twinstar and used that on other tanks. I dropped back once for 2 weeks when there was not any other tank to use  as i still worried that the 602 light will bring hair back. But not. The latest shots created this week. 2 months after we stopped using Twinstar continously here.


2013 Moments by viktorlantos, on Flickr


Green Aqua Showroom by viktorlantos, on Flickr


Aquatic Plants by viktorlantos, on Flickr

*180L tank 2:*

Then we used the device in a fresh 180L tank. The tank got a very early BGA on the sand, but we kept using Twinstar here and the BGA has gone in 2 or 3 weeks.
The Seiryu stoned not cleaned up so it looks like the device not working well for these stones in this tank size (smaller ones maybe more effective)
But we never had hair algae, diatom, cladophora or any other what usually appear with a fresh tank or a moss heavy tank. We're not cleaning the mosses and the tank become 2.5 months old now.

Start day


TWINSTAR TEST 2 - 90x45x45 - Day 1 by viktorlantos, on Flickr

Jan 18th capture


Green Aqua Showroom by viktorlantos, on Flickr

Close up on mosses


Aquatic Plants by viktorlantos, on Flickr


Aquatic Plants by viktorlantos, on Flickr



We're using less algae eater here like 1/3 of the common shrimps etc. We never removed Twinstar from this tank til this week. So 2.5 month test passed, but the stones need to be cleaned! 

*30L nanos*

These tanks were really matured. Like a year old now. Got issues because of the summer, winter, nano CO2 fluctation issues etc etc.
We used the device on the right one first where we had algae on the lava stones. Had hair algae and a large ammount of BGA in the HC carpet which starts to lift up these days.
We put in the Twinstar Mini on friday and by monday the tank was super clean! Lava is like new, no hair, and the BGA has gone. Crystal clear water after 3 days of use. Wow!
And we did not had any shrimps, siamese algae eater etc. This was more than a month ago and the tank still running without any algae. Like it was sterilized.

The middle tower had more serious issues. The blyxa started to melt after months of awesomeness. And removing this by hand seemed impossible. I thought i remove all the Blyxa Japonica or just trim it down brutally to the ground.
Also Limnophila Hippuroides we used in the back easily took over the algae from Blyxa so it does not look good. Added in Twinstar. We did not have shrimps here only a small siamese at that time.
It was around 10 days when the algae fully cleaned up. But this happened without loosing any plants or had to trim down any leaf! The hair eliminated from the dying Blyxa and the tank recovered again. Now this looks awesome clear and just like with the other if it was sterilized fully. No sign of issues etc. Love! 
The only thing what i see here is the Hydrocotyle Tripartita. This plant become almost white. No pale no iron issues as we dose iron usually. So this plant is become super bright after Twinstar and after a few weeks we removed the device the plant still looks that bright.


Tower Nanos by viktorlantos, on Flickr

*Another 60L fresh start*

This tank started with issues as the timer forgot the CO2 programs and it came in the worst time when we were closed for days.
Still when we identified the issue we do followed the instructions using siamese, shrimps in lower number. We had diatom (this is an Aquasoil Amazonia tank), but not that much.
Had hair because of Blyxa and the new parvula carpet, but the tank cleaned up by week 2. I wish this could be a normal start without CO2 issues, but this is a shop where things happen every day... 
Overall i am happy with the result. The Seiryu not getting any algae here. This is why i refers to George's tank where his stones also were clear. Small tanks looks like ok, but larger ones still need a toothbrush 
The light is a lot here as we have the 602 LED next to this 601 and this tank get some additional light from the 602. Still a very easy maintenance tank.
This is 2 months old here and had the Twinstar there continuously in this time frame.


Green Aqua Showroom by viktorlantos, on Flickr

*240L fresh start*

This is a new tank in our showroom. 240L dual filtration, external CO2 reactor, 4x54W or 6x54W ATI we not decided which one to use so a few days 4 others with 6 tubes 
We added in the Twinstar Nano (mode 2) after a week approx.
To early to say anything as we have it there a few days ago only, but the initial brown, diatom started to disappear from mosses after day 1. I not mentioned this on the upper 180L Seiryu moss tank, but mosses love this device and grows quicker.
I see the same thing here too since we installed. We will keep the device in for a few weeks to see how this performs, but the water is almost clearer, mosses looks better, initial alga is disappearing.
We do have more cleaning crew here, but we use a hell amount of mosses so we will need them. However no siamese this time.


Green Aqua Showroom by viktorlantos, on Flickr



This is what we tried and tested. In every tank we had success with them.
Not sure if i mentioned before but when our shop was closed at the end of the year and none of the tanks were fertilized, we came back to a mess in the new year 
Almost all tanks had serious issues because the missing ferts. Mainly BGA (NO3 issues), but green dot on glasses (PO4 issues) were in the tanks, but the ones where we had the devices were clear from any problem.
Of course these would have also issues a week later because the missing ferts, but in this time frame the tanks were under control and the algae had less fun for sure.

Now what i hear from my customers. Since there are many different scenarios:
Super powerful light on larger tank having issues with Seiryu stones. Had to clean them frequently, but no other algae is there. So usual hair, BGA, brush, diatom is not appearing.
Tanks with less experienced people giving different feedbacks. Many positive ones, but also says that they do not see difference other than clear water etc. Many of these people playing with fertilizers, using unbalanced systems like more light less filtration, too heavy flow, unbalanced CO2 etc. The device will not solve all the problems of course. This is why i still believe the Twinstar is a friend of experienced people who need a backup, or companies who do maintenances. For beginners the device will not solve the unbalanced issues. On the other hand even the most experienced people could have algae problems sometimes and this happens for many reason like we had the day offs, temperature change, Timer problem etc.

Cleaning the diffuser plate. Some of my client alerted me that not all cleaning solution is good to clean it. For example JBL Powerclean is not usable for metals.
We used Superge to clean the diffusers, and we noticed that even with a stronger solution Twinstar plate need more time to soak. We usually keep our CO2 diffusers on these cleaning solution for 10-15 minutes (using more concentrated form than the factory recommendation), but Twinstar need a night to have that nice fog again what it was before. We clean the diffusers in every 2 weeks.

Huh.... Sorry for being long here. 

Please take my note here not an advertisement or a call-to-action post 
The only reason why i posting this to extend the feedback on this topic on different scenarios and shows the problems or success we faced in the last 3-4 months. I am posting as an aquascaper here not a business guy.

Cheers,
Viktor


----------



## Rob P

Awesome post Victor!  Well let me add I'm not pro scaper one bit but results I've had as a newb consistent with your observations.

Hope you liked my rhyme? lol


----------



## James O

viktorlantos said:


> Many of these people playing with fertilizers, using unbalanced systems like more light less filtration, too heavy flow, unbalanced CO2 etc. The device will not solve all the problems of course. This is why i still believe the Twinstar is a friend of experienced people who need a backup, or companies who do maintenances. For beginners the device will not solve the unbalanced issues. On the other hand even the most experienced people could have algae problems sometimes and this happens for many reason like we had the day offs, temperature change, Timer problem etc.
> 
> Sorry for being long here.



Very interesting Viktor!  Especially that tanks stay clean after using TS.  Could it be that the plant growth & tank optimisation/bedding in have reached a stage where algae can't compete?  Do you think that the TS is not powerful enough in larger tanks as you say the stones are still covered in big tank?  

I guess any tank that needs TS could be called imbalanced, but we must keep in mind that until the tank is settled and plants grown in its just a glass box trying its best to replicate nature (albeit with CO2, short lighting period, low oxygenation, flow etc as required/used), which puts a lot of stress on the system initially allowing nature/algae to visit.  Once settled it should be fine?

Is anyone using TS in a low tech tank, or is that REALLY cheating


----------



## zanguli-ya-zamba

viktorlantos said:


> Not reported a while ago, but probably a good idea after months of use. How i feel about that, where we used, am i still happy or not, did Twinstar won in every case or not....
> Cheers,
> Viktor




Thank you for your report Viktor


----------



## steveno

Great post viktor, and can I say a great new addition to you already amazing set of tanks... My TS has provided similar result as viktor has documented, in my 120l. 



James O said:


> Is anyone using TS in a low tech tank, or is that REALLY cheating


Actually I am considering moving my TS over to my 30l low tech PRL shrimp tank, as starting to have a few algae issues but am a little concerned if it will effect my shrimp.


----------



## James O

steveno said:


> Actually I am considering moving my TS over to my 30l low tech PRL shrimp tank, as starting to have a few algae issues but am a little concerned if it will effect my shrimp.



Would be VERY interested in hearing how the TS goes in your low tech Steven


----------



## viktorlantos

steveno said:


> Actually I am considering moving my TS over to my 30l low tech PRL shrimp tank, as starting to have a few algae issues but am a little concerned if it will effect my shrimp.


 
Would be a great idea to test on one first.
We never had issues in a planted tank, but 30L is small and maybe the Twinstar dosage is a lot to them.
Also please watch out for the pH level. These shrimps are sensitive and small tanks has more fluctuation on water parameters. With the increased oxygen levels the pH may will increase more in a small tank like this.


----------



## Martin in Holland

What would happen if you put a TS for a big tank (up to 250l ) in a small tank (45l )....would it be bad for plants or animals?


----------



## viktorlantos

James O said:


> Do you think that the TS is not powerful enough in larger tanks as you say the stones are still covered in big tank?


 
For stones which increase the water hardness probably not.
All other effect is the same like in a small. So clean sand (not mentioned this but we never had to clean the sand since we use it), BGA, hair, thread, etc will die the same way, and the water clarity.

Some reported that the glass pipes stays cleaner for longer time and easier to clean as the algae not stuck on the glass surface that much.



James O said:


> Especially that tanks stay clean after using TS. Could it be that the plant growth & tank optimization/bedding in have reached a stage where algae can't compete?


 
Plant growth is one thing, but that is not that significant to make this difference. With using Twinstar i think the winning combo is that you kill the smallest pieces of algae so not only the visible ones, but all will die off and at the same time your filtration power will be 100 percent efficient with the increased oxygen. As your bio filter runs better the algae has less space to grow.

In a high light planted tank we say many times oxygen is not needed as your filter is enough, but that does not mean adding oxygen will not improve the system in overall. I bet most of us using the filtration with lowered efficiency because we're not using enough oxygen. This is easy to test if you add in an aeration overnight and the water will be clearer, then you can be sure the filtration is not running with 100% efficiency.


----------



## viktorlantos

Martin in China said:


> What would happen if you put a TS for a big tank (up to 250l ) in a small tank (45l )....would it be bad for plants or animals?


 
yup probably. you can overdose it i believe.


----------



## Rob P

Ah that's a shame lol, i was 'thinking' (dangerous! ) about putting it into Mini M low tech short term if problems arose, especially after Viktors comments after taking out lol 

Viktor some earlier questions that went unanswered, have you run this in tank with rear spray bar configuration at all? I have mine front left and get excellent TS bubble distribution in the left hand side of tank, the bubbles do get across full width to some degree but not an even distrubution. I noticed front left rocks (get smothered in bubbles) cleaned up much quicker than rock on opposite end to diffuser, although they cleaned 2/3 weeks later. I was thinking possibly better to place TS diffuser in rear centre under spray bar but suction cup placement seems suitable for corner mounting only? Here's pic (OMG how embarrassing posting pic in presence of Viktors masterpieces!! Is my "test tank" lol  )



Also Viktor, after removal do you have to make much adjustment to bubble rate etc as I found on installation of device fish perked up considerably and water clarity much improved. I would imagine keeping gas as high with TS removed could prove an issue?

Thanks!
Rob


----------



## Trevor Pleco

Rob P said:


> Sssh, didn't you realise? Once you have one you're in a secret club  lol


 
and the club's name dare I ask, surely it does not have to ryme ?

Might well be joining this elitest club with a tripple subscription..
TS suggested three for 760L, thought I could get away with two...


----------



## Mortis

Ive caved in and ordered one


----------



## steveno

Right, further to my previous post i have moved my twinstar nano into my 30l shrimp tank, i set to to mode 1 (was set to mode 2 in my 120l tank). Was starting to get some hair algae on the moss closes the top of the tank. Been installed since sunday morning and i have not notice any issue from shrimp (including the shrimplets), if anything they seem more active, likely due to the O2 boost. It seems to be providing the same benefits as i had in my larger tank, water is super clear, and the hair algae seem to have started to disintegrate. 

For the time being everything is fine, but will keep a close eye on it, plan on removing next sunday.


----------



## zanguli-ya-zamba

Hi members,

great news, I wanted to buy the device, but finally to the decision to buy it next month or later. Two days ago my wife have seen the twinstar web site on my computer, she went through the web site. As next friday it's my birthday, she decided to offer me one  !!!! So she did it today, and she also offer me three plants, Echinodorus telenus, Riccardia and ammania bonsai (I already have it).
Yes I know she is extraordinary !!!!
So saturday I will receive my TS for my birthday, and I will start reporting after this.

happy happy

cheers


----------



## zanguli-ya-zamba

Hi guys 
Just to let you know I received my twin star this morning yeah


----------



## Rob P

zanguli-ya-zamba said:


> Hi guys
> Just to let you know I received my twin star this morning yeah



Zanguli, why don't you let us know why you are using Twinstar? Is it to help current algae problem, is it to reduce maintenance etc? Be interesting to know what your goals are and how/if the device helps


----------



## zanguli-ya-zamba

Rob P said:


> Zanguli, why don't you let us know why you are using Twinstar? Is it to help current algae problem, is it to reduce maintenance etc? Be interesting to know what your goals are and how/if the device helps



Hi Rob,

I decide to use twinstat to prevent algae (I hope) and to give an help for the growth. It a newly set up tank (two weeks). I will report how benefit it will be for the tank . 

Regards


----------



## zanguli-ya-zamba

Hi guys 
I just wanted to report something. As I live in Congo we have a lot of power problems. I wanted to let you know that if the power goes off you need to restart and select again the mode you are using. 
So it doesn't comeback on itself

Cheers


----------



## Martin in Holland

zanguli-ya-zamba said:


> Hi guys
> I just wanted to report something. As I live in Congo we have a lot of power problems. I wanted to let you know that if the power goes off you need to restart and select again the mode you are using.
> So it doesn't comeback on itself
> 
> Cheers


 
Yes you have to press the button again 2 or 3 times, depending on your setting


----------



## TallDragon

I have found THE twinstar patent
Patent EP2656732A1 - Apparatus for controlling algal blooms and killing pathogens in fish tank - Google Patents

*Apparatus for controlling algal blooms and killing pathogens in fish tank*
*EP 2656732 A1*


----------



## Rob P

TallDragon said:


> I have found THE twinstar patent
> Patent EP2656732A1 - Apparatus for controlling algal blooms and killing pathogens in fish tank - Google Patents
> 
> *Apparatus for controlling algal blooms and killing pathogens in fish tank*
> *EP 2656732 A1*


 
Twinstar sounds much better than Killing Apparatus lol


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## Tim Harrison

Well done...apparently it works like this...

"The killing apparatus *111* may perform a sterilizing operation by doing following two actions.
First, as a direct action, the killing apparatus *111* destroys cell membranes of a microscopic organism such as germ by means of an electrical potential difference between the interior and the exterior of their cell membranes, by applying voltage to the microscopic organism.
Second, as an indirect action, the killing apparatus *111* generates radical and sterilizes the fish tank by means of the radical.
In addition, the killing apparatus *111* may assist the growth of water plants in the fish tank. That is, positive ions such as Ca+2, K+, Mg+2, Fe+2, Zn+2, and/or Na+ are activated in water by the killing apparatus *111*, thereby contributing to the growth of the water plants."


----------



## Monk d'Wally de Honk

Hmmm, radical killers being introduced into households across the western world by unsuspecting consumers unsure of what they are actually buying.


----------



## Monk d'Wally de Honk

D	E	A	T   H	S   T  A   R


----------



## Rob P

Monk d'Wally de Honk said:


> D	E	A	T H	S T A R


 
^ Would have been a better name IMO


----------



## three-fingers

Knowing how they are meant to work now, I wouldn't put one of these "killing apparatus" in any of my tanks even if I got one for free tbh. A device that destroys the cell membranes of microbes " such as germ"? What about the beneficial microbes that improve the aquarium environment for the plants and livestock - is it worth killing these too?  

I don't use gultaraldehyde for similar reasons, but at least glute has a quantifiable beneficial effect on plant growth by providing carbon.

I'd be interested to find out more info behind the supposed beneficial effect of the positive ions on plant growth though. In an aquarium following EI dosing principles where everything is in excess already, I don't know if ionising already plentiful nutrients would be beneficial for the plants or not. Googling required! 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## NatureBoy

...snap, crackle n pop! to be honest I'd love to drop one into my tank just for the mysterious mist, I could do a Kinder Scout scape


----------



## zanguli-ya-zamba

One week twin star is in the tank. For now no result on brown algae (diatom) still growing and covering plants and hardscape. 
I need maybe improvement in placement or some thing else for better results ?! 
Nothing special to report


----------



## LondonDragon

zanguli-ya-zamba said:


> I need maybe improvement in placement or some thing else for better results ?!


Or sort out your CO2, reduce the lighting and get the flow and ferts right


----------



## N'ko

Thanks to Victor for the long posts.

But I'm not sure what one can make out of all that. I'm talking about common sense. Three things:

1.Here I read about algae in ADA's tanks.  All kinds of algae - not just BBA, Cladophora, and spot algae.  I barely have time to take care of my 4 tanks but for years I have not had any problems with anything else other than Cladophora. Any time I change anything in my tanks all algae except Clado are not a problem to get rid of. What am I not understanding here?

2.  I have had a few tanks in which gross lack of maintenance has not lead to any algae or plant growth issues for months.  None.  And these are tanks that I have let evaporate 25-30%! High light, CO2, no ferts. So ultra-stable tanks are possible. Again, what am I missing?

3. Twinstar does seem to work. But why go after symptoms instead of solving the underlying problems?


----------



## Phil Edwards

N'ko said:


> But why go after symptoms instead of solving the underlying problems?



Because 99.999% of the people who would buy these things are also the people who tend to be least interested in the details of maintaining an aquarium.  The vast majority of aquarium keepers aren't like us.  They want easy, simple, plug-and-play instructions on how to keep a pretty tank with minimum effort.  If the aquarium industry had to depend solely on informed and interested hobbyists such as us every manufacturer would go out of business.  Except perhaps the ones who make tanks, lights, filters, and maybe CO2 hardware.  

We are by far the minority when it comes to the aquarium keeping populace.


----------



## Simon jones

Does anyone know where to get replacement diffusers from? I cleaned mine in 18% peroxide and nuked it!


----------



## jano

viktorlantos said:


> Ok another thing to share.
> 
> In our first test we used the device in an aquarium where the stones not raise the water hardness (Fossilized wood)
> 
> The second test is happening in a Seiryu packed aquarium where almost 40-50kg stones are there.
> Earlier i worried that the gas errode the stones. That is not happening on the other stones so maybe the one which has a light white patch now had an issue originally.
> 
> But! The calcium stuck in the diffuser plate in patches. Not sure of this will close down the mesh fully, but this is there in small patches.
> I had contacted with Twinstar and they mentioned that they already fixed the issue and the new devices will hit Europe around this time.
> But the old model has this issue with the mesh plate.
> 
> Twinstar also mentioned that the Calcium covered diffusers can be cleaned with a cleaning solution.
> So if you face with this issue it's possible to clean. They told me too, that i can leave the unit in our Seiryu scape as it is possible to clean.
> 
> On our unit i do not see problems with the diffusion yet, but as it gets clogged maybe you will realize this on the performance.
> 
> Anyway it's good to know. Keep in mind guys. The new unit will come to europe shortly.
> 
> ps: Twinstar working nicely in our Seiryu scape. I try to share the images next week sometime.
> But as i thought depend on your setup (crowded tank, high builds, flow) the unit helps you quicker or slower.



Hi,

I also have this issue with twinstar in my seiryu scape.

I bought 2 twinstar nano for my 400 L tank and one has the issue the other not so I gess that I got one new kind and one old kind.

Here you can see my problem from two sides :




 



 
This  Twinstar is starting to work quite bad with fewer and fewer bubles.

I tought about vinegar to clean it but I'm afraid to hurt it.

Any ideas on what to do ?


----------



## Simon jones

I cleaned mine with peroxide! It fizzed like buggery and now seems to produce sparse, large bubbles.


----------



## jano

So I gess I wont use peroxide 

As it should be a kind of limestone, I gess I could use some kind of soft acid like vinegar but I'm afraid to break it like you did


----------



## Simon jones

Try descaler or a weak citric acid solution?


----------



## jano

I asked the same question to Twinstar at sale@twinstar.kr.

Not sure to have an answer from them but I'll wait a litle before to try anything.

And I gess I can use weak citric acid solution that's right. I'll probably start with a 10% dilution if I try this method.


----------



## Robert Moon

Just read the bulk of this thread, great that we have finally have an answer as to what this does. I saw one for the first time in my local lfs yesterday and my first thought was electrolysis. It seems the ozone idea was remarkably close, but oxygen free radicals were the panacea instead. 


The patent suggests the current passes through the entire tank, which would fit with the rapid tank wide sterilisation data company have put out. But the question is what kind of currents are going through and how is this affecting lifestock? 
I'm still intrigues by this as it does make sense that it would have all of the effects the company stated. I' m surprised there are no stories of people using it in brackish or marine tanks. Electrolysis of brine gives chlorine gas instead of oxygen!!!!


----------



## jano

I think that the current does not passes through the entire tank but only from one metal net to the other.This does generate free radicals that goes through the entire tank.


----------



## Robert Moon

Hmm, maybe your right, but I think the inverse square law may at least apply. Trying to remember my A-level physics! In the patent it says the direct action is to disrupt membrane potentials by applying voltage to the bugs (I can't beleive they used the word germs in a patent) , but if that only applies between the electrode and cathode and ,there is no directed water flow,that would have almost no effect on a big tank. Radicals would effect a bigger area, but they are super reactive so would be rapidly depleted before dispersal.

I guess there is no conventional current flow anyway because it's ions attracted to the electrodes rather than electron flow. Is there a physicist or better still a spark around that can draw a diagram?


----------



## viktorlantos

Cheers to all. I've been away for a while as the season was super busy, but as things slowing down i have a little time to surf on forums again 

Thought to check in and see if i see new feedback from the device in use. Anyone jumped to the Twinstar since the topic start?
What are the experiences after a few months of use?

We do use like 10 of them now in our showroom in different conditions for months now. I still do not have bad experience with it.
Kind of living with it like with the daily fertilizers. I do have a zillion of shots in my gallery on tanks which has it so you can check it:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/viktorlantos/
Any good / bad experience? Love it or hate it?


----------



## Tim Harrison

Sod the Twinstar...well sort of any way...nice photo montage Viktor - some amazing scapes.
This is my favourate https://www.flickr.com/photos/viktorlantos/13628258033/


----------



## three-fingers

Amazing scape! Also, I possibly spy a harlequin shrimp in there at the bottom left (and a tiger shrimp on the right?), beautiful and interesting tank . Did they do OK with the injected CO2 Victor, if that is a harlequin?


----------



## viktorlantos

three-fingers said:


> Amazing scape! Also, I possibly spy a harlequin shrimp in there at the bottom left (and a tiger shrimp on the right?), beautiful and interesting tank . Did they do OK with the injected CO2 Victor, if that is a harlequin?



We do have tigers in there. But sure they are ok with the CO2.


----------



## Rob P

viktorlantos said:


> Thought to check in and see if i see new feedback from the device in use. Anyone jumped to the Twinstar since the topic start?
> What are the experiences after a few months of use?



Hi Viktor,

As a novice I can report my findings. Twinstar has been in use since late December 2013. I've had some ups and downs with the tank but i feel safe to say that TS has helped, not hindered. The plant mass from month 1 to month 3 multiplied around 3 times I would guess.

I have seen small amount of algae over the last couple of months (mainly GSA but very also small amount stag/BBA) and this has been in areas at the rear of the tank in lowest flow/co2 distribution but considering lighting levels used and my general inexperience I think I have got away lightly and I believe TS has given room to manoeuvre. I have recently lowered levels of light/co2 as the fish have been affected at higher energy levels.

I clean TS diffuser weekly to be safe, overnight soak in strong ADA Superge solution which seems to keep performance consistent. 

Any rocks/decor in tank have stayed clean. 

I'm still not convinced unit is giving best operation when used with long rear spraybar as TS bubble distrubtion is not equal throughout tank, i don't know how to get around this. 

I have no issue leaving device in tank and certainly have no regrets buying and using it 

Rob


----------



## Omegatron

I would like to give the twinstar a try but the € 170,- is too much for me (shame its so expensive) so im sticking with the toothbrush to remove the algae from the rocks


----------



## Martin in Holland

I have mine running from the beginning of my re-scaped tank and so far algae free (exept for brown algae which I'm still fighting against). I am still very surprised how little to almost never have to clean the glass.


----------



## JoshScape

Hey I recently installed a Twinstar Nano into a new setup which has been growing now for about 8 weeks and i'm not completely sold. 

No major algae problems but i usually don't get much anyway, so technically it does what it says it does. However I still have brown algae appearing on the Twinstar unit and some areas on glass.

My main problems are; 

I'm getting alot of dusty sediment appearing on rocks that i usually don't get in a tank, is this normal? 
People have stated that it has increased plant health in tanks, where i'm having the total opposite experiences plants look like they are melting. In fact from what i've experience it has increased the need for maintenance on my tank with increased water changes and an increased fertiliser regime.
If the Twinstar Nano is a water steriliser why would this be needed in a Nature Aquarium as sterile water is unnatural and not found in nature? Sterile Water would be beneficial to fish and inverts mostly because there is no bacteria in the water, but since most of us have Planted Tanks this isn't a problem anyway.

I do think that this should just be a maintenance tool, maybe turn it on once a week and run for a day. Which is what i'm currently testing will let you know the results.


----------



## Peter Botting

Has anyone noticed that their twinstar works less often as time goes by. Initially it was fairly consistent in its bubble/mist output but after a week or so mine seems to be seen working very rarely? Is this part of the so called working algorithm?


----------



## viktorlantos

Peter Botting said:


> Has anyone noticed that their twinstar works less often as time goes by. Initially it was fairly consistent in its bubble/mist output but after a week or so mine seems to be seen working very rarely? Is this part of the so called working algorithm?



Yup, this is a preprogrammed thingie. I guess the logic behind it as your tank progress and you have less algae you do not need that much sterilization. Makes sense.
Still you need to keep up with the diffuser plate cleaning to have the best effect. Like bi-weekly or so. And probably better to soak the plate longer than the CO2 diffusers. Maybe for overnight?

If you're unhappy with the fact that it is turning on less these days, you can reset the program anytime by pressing the button for 15 sec. You will hear a beep sound. Then you need to turn on and the program will start again from the beginning.
This is useful also when you put the TS to another tank.[DOUBLEPOST=1397858757][/DOUBLEPOST]





JoshScape said:


> I do think that this should just be a maintenance tool, maybe turn it on once a week and run for a day. Which is what i'm currently testing will let you know the results.



This will not work then. Each algae is different and need different time to die off or eat up by the maintenance crew.
For example TS helped us with BGA but it took weeks til the algae disappeared completely from the soil etc.

Turning on the device and turning off will not have that effect. As you run it you hit the algae with TS, but turning it off the light will inidicate the grow again.
This is a problem if you have some issues with the balance in your tank.

I would run it for 4-6 weeks depend on the situation and then would remove it completely.

Some of our tanks cleared up in days. Some took weeks.

Your plant melting is interesting. We do run it in 10+ setups now and not identified similar thing.
Would be nice to see some shots on the algae and the plants. Maybe that gets us closer to the problem.


----------



## Peter Botting

Many thanks for your reply Viktor. What are you using to clean them? Would h2o2 or bleach be okay or is there something more suitable?


----------



## viktorlantos

Peter Botting said:


> Many thanks for your reply Viktor. What are you using to clean them? Would h2o2 or bleach be okay or is there something more suitable?



I am not 100% sure. We do use ADA Superge, but i guess similar solution would work fine. Some cleaning solution is not working well with the diffusor. H2O2, JBL Powerclean is reported by out clients as a non to go way.
Even with Superge need a bit stronger solution and soak is for overnight. Not enough for a few minute or hour like with the ceramic diffusers.


----------



## Gary Nelson

I've been using oust kettle de-scailer.... Seems to work fine


----------



## Trevor Pleco

Ok I know this has been discussed before, but any further recommendations or experiences on the diffuser cleaning method would be appreciated ? I don't have ADA Superge, but wanted to try either H2O2 or normal household cleaning bleach. Sure, both these products will clean the diffuser, but I'm concerned on potential  long term damage as presumable both options might need to be diluted first and if so what solution ? I have three Twinstars operating in a big tank, so don't want to risk damaging all three !


----------



## Piece-of-fish

I have tried to find out how to safely clean with something different than superge. Heard Twinstar is releasing special liquid soon. 
On the feedback note I am loving my 2 units and would like them in every tank now  
Having more than 5 aquariums with co2 does not help!


----------



## Iain Sutherland

Piece-of-fish said:


> On the feedback note I am loving my 2 units and would like them in every tank now
> Having more than 5 aquariums with co2 does not help!


 It's about time you showed them off then isn't it 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Piece-of-fish

They look crap.


----------



## Iain Sutherland

Piece-of-fish said:


> They look crap.


of course they do lol


----------



## viktorlantos

Guys we do run them in half of our tanks now. Around 11 tanks probably in our gallery. The ones where we have it installed is absolutelly stunning. 
Less issue when we leave the shop for a few days and no fertilizers are in, or we skip the water change etc. Like an angel sitting on our shoulders 

You can browse my flickr gallery and you will see how many tanks got it.

Super clean sand, mosses which never gets algae and no need to vacum them at all. Just these 2 things are super value for us.

I am still love with them. But back to the cleaning question, i do not have a good answer unfortunatelly.
Plates gets clogged by minerals that can be cleaned in a few hours. The issue is when the plate gets darker and will diffuse less.

We had a contest in the past 2.5 months with our community and we used these devices to run the tanks without major issues. Will open up a thread for this as the whole contest was exciting. But these devices performed really well there too.


----------



## Trevor Pleco

Piece-of-fish said:


> I have tried to find out how to safely clean with something different than superge. Heard Twinstar is releasing special liquid soon.
> On the feedback note I am loving my 2 units and would like them in every tank now
> Having more than 5 aquariums with co2 does not help!




Ok thanks, please keep us posted.., also really loving mine and has added the extra sparkle and clarity to the tank, just in time for IAPLC picture fun.

I thought I could perhaps get away with two units in 760l, probably closer to 600l minus the hardscape, especially as they fire so rapidly when you first put them in, but three seems to be working for me, as recommended by the Twinstar folk .. will get a side view pic up at some point..

I managed to momentarily get the bottom part of the one control unit wet where the input sockets are located, it was fortunately off at the time. It was easy to take the back cover off the control panel with the three screws, so made sure the circuit board was dry with a blower and then let it dry for a further day, and it seems to be working 100s.


----------



## NatureBoy

viktorlantos said:


> Guys we do run them in half of our tanks now. Around 11 tanks probably in our gallery. The ones where we have it installed is absolutelly stunning.
> Less issue when we leave the shop for a few days and no fertilizers are in, or we skip the water change etc. Like an angel sitting on our shoulders
> 
> You can browse my flickr gallery and you will see how many tanks got it.
> .


How are sales of the units going Viktor? Is it gaining in acceptance /  curiosity / trend?


----------



## viktorlantos

NatureBoy said:


> How are sales of the units going Viktor? Is it gaining in acceptance /  curiosity / trend?



To be honest device is selling well. But it's worth to think about why it is meanwhile the UV filters are really not going well.
I think the reason why more people jumped in because they've seen expert feedback for the first time. Had many positive tests and the long-term tests feedbacks are positive too.
People who sell this are really not average shops. They are usually expert in their field. And if they feel good about it they easily sell it.

Most of our client are happy about it we do use many of them in our showroom and just like Dave Chow we slowly add this into most of our client installations.

I do use them in the past 8 months and this is really good. But still my ealrier comment is valid. This is for someone who knows the basics. As for beginners there will be many other issues to solve and get over on it.
For an advanced person this is really helpful.

In my country some folks did already the DIY version of it. So it is not about it anymore that it is effective or not it is much more about how we can do this at home.


----------



## pepedopolous

viktorlantos said:


> I do use them in the past 8 months and this is really good


Hi Victor,

Do you think it really helps keep rocks clean? Every month I have to pull out rocks (Unzan Stone) and treat them with Excel or H2O2. If the Twinstar reduced the need to do this I think it's worth the cost, plus for some scapes you might not be able to take the rocks out...


P


----------



## viktorlantos

I've seen cases when the seiryu stayed clean with Twinstar. But if you have a super powerful light no matter you have this thing, your stones will be green for sure. Like in this client tank where all plants looks super healthy, but the stones goes green in a short time
https://www.flickr.com/photos/emze75/13953170740/

Of course he is using an ATI light. But sand is clean, no algae on plants, water is clear.

He used an EI fertilizer here and his stones become green in a minute. Then he switched to an ADA one where nitrate is super low almost zero and PO4 is also low, and the stones stays clean much longer.
So sometimes the ferts also plays here. But i have to add that with the EI his plants grown a lot. If he misses the current one for a day or 2 the plants goes pale.

Back to the decor question. As i see dragon stays clean using Twinstar. Lava stones too. But Seiryu usually goes green as Manten too.


----------



## pepedopolous

Thanks for the reply Victor. That's interesting. I am definitely tempted.

P


----------



## Martin in Holland

Couldn't we clean the TS with vinegar?


----------



## jano

Martin in China said:


> Couldn't we clean the TS with vinegar?


Yes that's what I do with mine.
Classic alcohol vinegar from my kitchen and it works well.
Done it a least 4-5 times (every one or two weeks) 15 minutes bath in vinegar each time.


----------



## Rob P

Piece-of-fish said:


> I have tried to find out how to safely clean with something different than superge. Heard Twinstar is releasing special liquid soon.
> On the feedback note I am loving my 2 units and would like them in every tank now
> Having more than 5 aquariums with co2 does not help!



I had to resort to trying some plain old de-scaler. I was doing the shower head in a solution so decided to drop the diffuser in as well. 30 minutes later, clean and clear 

I have been cleaning every week, in strong ADA superge (suggested a capful per litre, my solution was a capful in a mug sort of thing so considerably stronger) and this was left overnight. Performance does seem to have dropped off quite a lot...

I'm also getting weird white deposit on my diffuser, this appears every week! Thought it could be food particles that rest on the plates but it's definitely not, can't be any rocks in the tank as it's never done it before. So pretty clueless why this keeps reappearing, anyone else had the same??



It's soft at first but gets harder when left. ADA Superge doesn't do much to help and i'd resorted to poking at it all with a pin, but the kettle de-scaler soon got rid!

Think i need a 15 second reset to beef mine up again! lol

Regards,
Rob


----------



## Piece-of-fish

Try household limescale remover. 
I do really like my Twinstars now. Been sceptical I must admit. I do want them in all my tanks now. They are not magic but they do what they claim. My maintenance has reduced and both hardscape rock and glass are much cleaner now. 
I have been talking with Twinstar at interzoo and they suggest we can use bleach for cleaning. It should not harm the diffuser. The calcium deposits if any could be cleaned with hydroshloric acid or household limescale remover. 
You do want sufficient units for your size. One nano is efficient for an aquarium up to 180l. Bigger than that and you want 2 units. I am using one on exactly this size tank and that is were I see it working. Because of not so good flow distribution I have green rock on one side of the tank which I clean every day. The other side which gets more bubbles is spottless and I have not touched it in about 6 weeks now (from the beginning). I have added a powerhead to help with the distribution and will report once I see the results.


----------



## Rob P

Piece-of-fish said:


> Try household limescale remover.



It is not working. Here is the unit after OVERNIGHT soak in limescale remover 1st June



Here is the unit in the tank on 3rd June, 3 DAYS LATER



This is what is happening constantly. Limescale remover gets it back to like the first pic, but in a matter of 3 or 4 days it is covered in white bits again. Going to be a lot of work and cost a lot to keep it clean!!  

Anyone have direct contact details for Twinstar as i'd be interested to hear what they have to say?? It did not start doing this until a few weeks ago, after the first few months of faultless operation.

Cheers,
Rob


----------



## Mr. Teapot

Does twinstar sell spare diffuser plates? Sounds like a lot of hard work but you could rotate between them like people do with their CO2 diffusers.


----------



## Rob P

Mr. Teapot said:


> Does twinstar sell spare diffuser plates? Sounds like a lot of hard work but you could rotate between them like people do with their CO2 diffusers.



I think they have just started selling them but they're not cheap (and to be honest the original should perform well beyond 4 months without issue, especially when meticulously cleaned so regularly!!).

And it wouldn't make a difference as the diffuser cleans up in limsecale remover within 30 minutes (soaking overnight does no better job) but i should not have be doing this every 3 or 4 days lol

I have found their email address anyway and emailed them the images, have to wait and see what they say...


----------



## Piece-of-fish

Ye, this looks weird. Try Twinstar on facebook if they ignore emails. Curious to know what it is.


----------



## viktorlantos

Rob P said:


> It is not working. Here is the unit after OVERNIGHT soak in limescale remover 1st June
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the unit in the tank on 3rd June, 3 DAYS LATER
> 
> 
> 
> This is what is happening constantly. Limescale remover gets it back to like the first pic, but in a matter of 3 or 4 days it is covered in white bits again. Going to be a lot of work and cost a lot to keep it clean!!
> 
> Anyone have direct contact details for Twinstar as i'd be interested to hear what they have to say?? It did not start doing this until a few weeks ago, after the first few months of faultless operation.
> 
> Cheers,
> Rob



The problem is that, your diffuser plate turned black. This could be for several reson like too strong cleaning solution, iron dosing etc. this can not be cleaned. Once the diffusers plate turns black and diffusion stops, cleaning solution not works, the diffuser unit have to be replaced.

It cost like 50 eur, so not cheap, but as far as i know this is the only way.

Originally the meshes are white. Like a teflon covered mesh. But when it is black it looks like this coating melted and you only see the wires


----------



## Rob P

viktorlantos said:


> The problem is that, your diffuser plate turned black. This could be for several reson like too strong cleaning solution, iron dosing etc. this can not be cleaned. Once the diffusers plate turns black and diffusion stops, cleaning solution not works, the diffuser unit have to be replaced.
> 
> It cost like 50 eur, so not cheap, but as far as i know this is the only way.
> 
> Originally the meshes are white. Like a teflon covered mesh. But when it is black it looks like this coating melted and you only see the wires



Thanks for your comments Viktor. I don't think there's a UK distributor selling replacement diffusers yet! That's a sod if i've only got 4 months use from it. I sent email to sales@twinstar.kr with images/asking for advice but I have not had any reply after over 2 weeks


----------



## Piece-of-fish

Try them on facebook. You can also try asking TGM about it and about replacement diffusers.


----------



## viktorlantos

Replacement units are new. They came out at interzoo a week ago. So retailers can order them now. I picked up a small batch at the expo


----------



## Martin in Holland

for such an expensive toy you would expect it to last longer....much longer also come with some cleaning instructions....



viktorlantos said:


> iron dosing


If it can't even handle iron than what is it doing in a planted tank.

I only cleaned it with normal vinegar and it stopped working totally...a bit disappointing about this I have to say.


----------



## viktorlantos

Martin in China said:


> If it can't even handle iron than what is it doing in a planted tank.



Yeah same for salts isn't it?

But based on our 9 months tests if you just dose irons a few times a week and not heavily dosing daily than it's not an issue.
However be aware to use heavy iron fertilizers in larger ammount.


----------



## khfoong

Hello.Seems something wrong with my Twinstar Nano? Today just first day I installed. At first is worked perfectly. After 10-20 mist then the mist getting lesser and lesser. It doesn't create the fine mist. I have to knocked the Reactor or pull the cable untill I push it up and down so that those big air bubbles escape then the device work like normal. I have to repeat this step few times daily. 

Similar like this case. Kindly refer this video clip then you should know more. 
Anyone have this problem before?


----------



## Murat Dandin

+1 
I have the same problem.may be related to the water cycle...


----------



## PedroB

I believe it has a working algorithm, it may be functioning in accordance to that.


----------



## plantbrain

viktorlantos said:


> Yeah same for salts isn't it?
> 
> But based on our 9 months tests if you just dose irons a few times a week and not heavily dosing daily than it's not an issue.
> However be aware to use heavy iron fertilizers in larger ammount.



Use DTPA instead of Gluconate or ETDA..........[DOUBLEPOST=1406304569][/DOUBLEPOST]





viktorlantos said:


> They are usually expert in their field. And if they feel good about it they easily sell it.
> 
> Most of our client are happy about it we do use many of them in our showroom and just like Dave Chow we slowly add this into most of our client installations.
> 
> I do use them in the past 8 months and this is really good. But still my ealrier comment is valid. This is for someone who knows the basics. As for beginners there will be many other issues to solve and get over on it.
> For an advanced person this is really helpful.
> 
> In my country some folks did already the DIY version of it. So it is not about it anymore that it is effective or not it is much more about how we can do this at home.



If you are an expert, well..........then you really are not selling the product because you do not need the product.
A method, or a device, any.........can be made to do very well if you are good to begin with.

I do not think that is a logical argument in support.

Still, if you use a wet/dry filter, then ..............O2 is higher and I have similar results/can make similar claims... 
and I clean the filter much less........no water line stains/lime, no device to clean or plug in or added cost.Equipment out of the tank etc

Adding more O2 can be done many ways. 

If you use a canister (these are not cheaper than wet/drys comparatively) then you could argue for them and if you do not do water changes much and if you over load the fish stocking.
I am still much more in favor of a decent filter, good water changes ......................basic stuff.
My wet dry filters last for decades. Till I break them myself.

I'll pick one up sometime and test it with the O2 data logger on a reference tank, maybe the 120 or the 70, or the 180, but such small dinky devices on larger tanks, I'll have to see if I can get the largest model or run 2.


----------



## viktorlantos

Tom this is right til you do heavy maintenances. But we've seen how your beauty tank looked when you were in Asia a few months before. You can't be there all the time to fix things and do your algae battles. That just happens with anyone who is not dedicating 100% effort and time with his tank. And the wet dry filter really not helped with your issue too in that case.

This is fixed in no time after that you had access to the tank but you had to be there to fix things.

It is not about sell something it is the life which changing around us meanwhile we're in this beautiful hobby. Kids, work, holiday, moving etc which loose the focus and decrease time on our beauty. Product like ts fills the gap in these situations the best.


----------



## wijnands

I've been trough several of the 29 pages of this discussion in search for an answer to a very simple question.
1. what is it?
2. what's it producing?

Would anyone be so kind as to point me to the right page of this discussion at least? tnx!


----------



## Andy D

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/index.php?threads/Twinstar-DIY.33881/

I think there are more threads. Just do a search for Twinstar.


----------



## Piece-of-fish

A revised feedback after a long testing period. 
Verdict: piece of junk in most cases unfortunately. 
I had different feeling about it with some moments of excitment also but in the end it is what it is. The unit might do the job but diffusers are well to fragile. Damn the things you cannot do with your tank when twinstar is in are way too many. Dont dose iron, dont do that and that etc. And at about 50-60£ for a replacement diffuser? Come on. It will only help a little and only with green algae in my opinion. Nothing that a better balance would not do. 
Way too expensive also. Only people who can understand and perhaps appreciate it would be experienced scapers. 
Sadly I say no at this point but keep a right to change my opinion later  As I said I did think its good at some moments.  I have only tested it on larger tanks. Perhaps it does better on the 60cm.


----------



## Stu Worrall

mine seems to work but its covered in calcium at the moment so doesnt do much


----------



## TallDragon

stuworrall said:


> mine seems to work but its covered in calcium at the moment so doesnt do much


Do you use treated tap water or RO water. What is the hardness?


----------



## Stu Worrall

TallDragon said:


> Do you use treated tap water or RO water. What is the hardness?


Tap but our water is very soft. My tanks full of seiryu though so it will get the deposits from that I expect


----------



## Ian Holdich

Piece-of-fish said:


> A revised feedback after a long testing period.
> Verdict: piece of junk in most cases unfortunately.
> I had different feeling about it with some moments of excitment also but in the end it is what it is. The unit might do the job but diffusers are well to fragile. Damn the things you cannot do with your tank when twinstar is in are way too many. Dont dose iron, dont do that and that etc. And at about 50-60£ for a replacement diffuser? Come on. It will only help a little and only with green algae in my opinion. Nothing that a better balance would not do.
> Way too expensive also. Only people who can understand and perhaps appreciate it would be experienced scapers.
> Sadly I say no at this point but keep a right to change my opinion later  As I said I did think its good at some moments.  I have only tested it on larger tanks. Perhaps it does better on the 60cm.



At last...a real review!


----------



## Zak Rafik

I have seen this device in many many LFS's tank but 95% of them are just covered with green algae and not in use at all. If the device was really that useful, I'm sure these LFS would not have neglect them.


----------



## Andy Thurston

Henry said:


> What an utterly dross website! I sense a whiff of snake oil.





BigTom said:


> Whatever it is, I'm 100% sure I don't need one



It was all figured out on page one but when you've just spent £100 on an algae eradicating device, of course your going to say it works. Even if it does help a bit its still not worthy of the price tag


----------



## Trevor Pleco

I disagree, I've had three TWS nanos going in my 760L for over six months now and are pleased with the results and the investment ! It's made that extra difference and certainly made life and maintenance easier. I'm not hassled with having to ever clean GDA or GSA off the front glass, perhaps once every two months, the hardscape and lighter coloured cosmetic sand are also algae free, more importantly the plants imo are also happier, healthier and have that extra sparkle. Great little product in my book, but not some miracle cure for the floundering newbie or folks or retail shops that want to get lazy with their tank maintenance..


----------



## Andy Thurston

My tank has been running for 9/10months and i haven't cleaned the glass once
Growth rates aren't excessive and red plants are still red, so i definitely dont need it. In my eyes its more clutter in the tank and it looks like a mini urinal
Whats the point of spending loads of fancy glassware then ruining the look with a nasty bit of plastic


----------



## Trevor Pleco

I agree that's also my complaint, it's big clutter in the tank especially three of them, if it was black with black leads and black suction cups this would surely be less conspicuous...

Other complaints are the cost and not bringing out a bigger version for bigger tanks.



Big clown said:


> My tank has been running for 9/10months and i haven't cleaned the glass once



In a high tech tank with stronger light, I can assure you even the very best scapers need to clean their glass from time to time, ask Takashi. I find when taking pics you become hyper critical to the slightest hint of green, but sure many folk don't worry until they eventually realise they can't see the fish.


----------



## viktorlantos

Piece-of-fish said:


> Only people who can understand and perhaps appreciate it would be experienced scapers.



That was my point a year ago


----------



## PedroB

I just bought a twinstar nano on impulse. I need it for extra peace of mind when I go on holiday (that's how I'm justifying it to myself anyway).


----------



## Piece-of-fish

Good man Pedro. Twinstar needs you


----------



## PedroB

I like to try things for myself. Even if it just helps a little I'll give it a go.


----------



## Bhu

If this is an ozone generator then it creates and releases O3 which oxidises fine particles of mater. I used to use one in my marine aqurium when I had a colour tinge. I ran ozone through the sump by bubbling it into the skimmer and it burnt out the fine organic particles and the water turned a lovely bright clear again. It's a cheat for water changes really. Like burning off organic matter instead of diluting it with water changes. Worked great mind but you could over dose it. Many people I knew who killed off all their fish by using too much ozone. Once it's done its oxidising its plain olde oxygen O2 but beware if there is nothing to react with then the aquarium and room can fill with ozone which is harmful to breath in for fish or humans. I really don't feel that there is a need for ozone in freshwater aquariums! There was hardly a need in marine setups. It was for me anyhow a last resort to get the yellowing of the water to cease. After that I rarely needed it.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 
I can't see any point in Twinstar full stop, but we don't think it is an ozone generator (O3), we think it produces micro and nano bubbles of oxygen (O2). The details are somewhere earlier in the thread.

cheers Darrel


----------



## clonitza

I ditched mine, I had the nicest algae (BGA and spyro) outbreak during my one week vacation. One week later, after tweaking the things that triggered the outbreak, the tank looks better than it did with the twinstar and the annoying mist is gone.
If this thing can't slow down, at least, an algae outbreak for the ones that says it works against than for me it's useless.
Now I wish I'd spent the money on something better like the ADA Aquasky I wanted to order in the first place ...


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,  





dw1305 said:


> The details are somewhere earlier in the thread.


 <On page 12>  of this thread. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Marcel G

The Twinstar is definitely an *electrolyzer*, so it makes an _*electrolyzed water*_ (rich in hydrogen and oxygen). I have tested it thoroughly with my friend who's electrician (he inspected the device with oscilloscope also). My findings are published on the following website: http://www.prirodni-akvarium.cz/index.php?id=rasy_nanobublinky. The informations and charts are not complete yet. I'll do a dissolved oxygen test also. There is much current debate over whether electrolysed water is beneficial to plants and fish between scientists, and although the positive effects of this water look promissing, it was not proven yet.


----------



## Mortis

Ive been using the Twinstar Nano on a new tank and heres my feedback :

1] It does go a long way in preventing GSA on the Aquarium glass. I dont have any on this tank and I susually do have some in most of my tanks.

2] Doesnt help at all wit any non green algae

3] Doesnt do much as far as keeping hardscape clean goes. Just the rocks in a few inches radius are a tad cleaner than the rest

4] One great feature is that its been keeping my external filter pipes a LOT cleaner, so I can go longer between filter cleanings

5]  It seems to keep the water 'fresher'. While my tanks dont smell at all, if I put my arms in to do some maintenance, etc they usually come out smelling 'planty' but with the Twinstar there is only a very slight smell

6] I cant really say whether it has had any positive impact on plant growth because I do know how to grow them. However it may just be a coincidence but this is the only time I have been successful at growing UG. Its spreading like a weed ! However, I can just as well attribute the growth to the new Planting Soil that I have formulated and trying out 

7) Would I buy another one ? It does have some nice benefits but only if the price was dropped by 40-50% and if it comes in black


----------



## Stu Worrall

i think mines goosed.

To be fair it does seem to work when its running but mine started collecting calcium all over the diode and blocking the metal part.  Ive had it in de-scaler which removes it overnight only to find it re-grows all the deposits within days after that


----------



## Mortis

Is your water really that hard ? :O

Or could it be some calcium or magnesium compound thats got a greater affinity for the electrodes and your get some sort of electroplating thing going on ?


----------



## Stu Worrall

Ive got 50 odd kilos of Seiryu in there so Im guessing thats the source but the unit has been in there running since the beginning of the year with no problems up until about a month ago and hadnt fuzzed up before

and water is really soft as im in wales


----------



## Piece-of-fish

Took mine out few weeks ago, have not noticed any difference. 
Leaning towards crap


----------



## foxfish

You would think someone would release another "must buy" gadget for Christmas?


----------



## Andy Thurston

Big clown said:


> It was all figured out on page one but when you've just spent £100 on an algae eradicating device, of course your going to say it works. Even if it does help a bit its still not worthy of the price tag


----------



## Lauris

Hi there. 
it might be somewhere in topic, but reading 30 pages would take a time..
how to you free the redactor mesh from calcium? My one is blocked out and 
I just noticed it today. I know they have some special solution but again 
1. I could not find it online
2. I guess it will be overpriced
3. It should be something simple to use instead

As far as I know (but I know very little abut chemical processes) the solution is something
that reacts with calcium and makes it to dissolve. Managed to find on some forums - it is 
hydrochloric acid. I assume it is the same thing what twinstar might sell seriously overpriced.

Any experience with this? anything I can get in pharmacy or hardware store to clean it?
If hydrochloric acid is available on its own, how strong should it be (%).

Any advice would be much appreciated. 

thanks


----------



## Lauris

no stress.

25% White vinegar does wonders.
30Min and not a sign of calcium and Twinstar works like a new.
Fine mist as like a first time in. I guess I  have my issue sorted.


----------



## foggy01.1983

OK I've just been searching through eBay and there may be a cheaper alternative to twin star. 

I've found something that looks the same called chihiros

has anyone used one of these? 

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=221662373874&alt=web


----------



## PedroB

My twinstar was COVERED with green algae. The mesh was fine though, I guess it works at preventing algae in the mesh.


----------



## Martin in Holland

Who is still using his TS after a year of the hipe?


----------



## PedroB

Mine is still on,  I have to justify paying over 100£ for a useless mesh in white plastic


----------



## tino.vyatkin

I do. It actually momentary lowering ORP, so, I can use more ozone then 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Piece-of-fish

foggy01.1983 said:


> OK I've just been searching through eBay and there may be a cheaper alternative to twin star.
> 
> I've found something that looks the same called chihiros
> 
> has anyone used one of these?
> 
> http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=221662373874&alt=web



Haha, thats cheaper than Twinstar diffuser


----------



## PedroB

Hello everyone,

Something just occurred to me: could the "regular" twinstar (nano) be detrimental to shrimps?
I'm thinking this because I have a thriving tank in every aspect except I can't get Red Cherry Shrimp to reproduce. I've bred them before and they even reproduce in a bucket of water left outside in the winter, and on this tank in 6 months they berried once and had no offspring.  Adding this to the fact that Twinstar retails a "shrimp" version, could this be the reason for my unsuccessful attempts?


----------



## Rahms

PedroB said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> Something just occurred to me: could the "regular" twinstar (nano) be detrimental to shrimps?
> I'm thinking this because I have a thriving tank in every aspect except I can't get Red Cherry Shrimp to reproduce. I've bred them before and they even reproduce in a bucket of water left outside in the winter, and on this tank in 6 months they berried once and had no offspring.  Adding this to the fact that Twinstar retails a "shrimp" version, could this be the reason for my unsuccessful attempts?



considering the thing isn't remotely "required," best way to find out is to turn it off I would think


----------



## Vonbruz

Hi all. I have literally just registered on the site as I have read this whole Twinstar Nano thread from page 1 to page 31!! (Bit of bedtime reading over the past few days).

Anyway, the reason is I have recently set up a new 200l planted tank after my last tank sprung a leak. I used this as an excuse to purchase a new tank ; ) 

Needless to say, I have a serious algae bloom going on (week 4/5 since set up). There isn't any visible algae so to speak, but the water is a cloudy green and it's been like this for two weeks. Because of the size of the new tank it has unfortunately had to go where there is a lot of light which I think has contributed. I have now installed some blinds to reduce this (the things we do eh?) but as you can appreciate I have been searching online for other help which is when I came across the Twinstar.

Now aplogies for the long post but i'm thinking there may be others like me in the same predicament and wondering about the twinstar. Like others have said there isn'the much info out there, but I am now satisfied it works by using electrolysis and not ozone and have today decided to take an educated gamble and buy one.

I know some here will say they are not necessary but if it helps with tank cleanliness I think it may be worth it.

The reason I am posting is that i shared a lot of the valid opinions here about how it works and also the price/aesthetics of it. I found a new edition from twinstar Portugal (though I went through their ebay rather than site as it was slightly cheaper) which seems to address some of the issues. There is the Nano 2 and Nano Plus (which I opted for as it was £20 more and has 3 settings instead of 2). The cable is now inline and the design is much more pleasing to the eye. They even have a nice cradle which you get free but I won't be able to use thus on my tank. The price has also come down. The Nano 2 (up to 200l) is £98 & free postage.

I am in no way advertising it as I am yet to use it, but if like me you are thinking of it (let's face it, who else would be reading this old thread) and like me considered the cheaper version (chihiros doctor), then I thought thus may help.

I would be happy to report back after I receive it and have it set up for a while. I am thinking of taking some before, during & after photos if anyone is interested in feedback. 

Anyway, wish me luck. If anyone has any advice for my algae bloom in the meantime I would be very grateful.


----------



## Tim Harrison

Luck!...from what I can gather it's not necessarily an algae panacea but an aid to good husbandry...then again it may help anyway...either way thanks for an update on what many consider a controversial peace of planted tank paraphernalia...


----------



## Tim Harrison

P.S. don't forget that there is a much cheaper alternative (other than good husbandry...that is) at less than half the price http://www.ebay.com/itm/221662373874


----------



## Rahms

Troi said:


> P.S. don't forget that there is a much cheaper alternative (other than good husbandry...that is) at less than half the price http://www.ebay.com/itm/221662373874



likely why the price has come down!


----------



## ian_m

Vonbruz said:


> but the water is a cloudy green and it's been like this for two weeks.


Turn your lights down, your tank is telling you, you have far too much light, probably killing your plants and producing prime algae food.


----------



## Vonbruz

His all. Thanks for the replies. Troi  - I used the word luck with regards to my new tank and the fact I am new to planted aquaria. I did mention the cheaper Chihiros but I thought the improvements to the twinstar made it more appealing.

I have been keeping fish for a number of years and the only fish I have are two black widow tetras that are now 7 yrs old and 3 corys that are 5. Unfortunately I had a sudden disaster with my tank which forced me to quickly set up my new tank and wait for the water to be safe enough for the boys lol. 

I appreciate that good housekeeping is essential, but I thought any help is welcome if the device works. 

Ian_m - Thank you, I have for the past week reduced lighting time and reduced direct sunlight to the tank as much as possible. I am doing more regular water changes so just wanted a helping hand to keep on top of things. Appreciate your comments and help guys. I know it's controversial, just wanted to share my thoughts on it as I know I struggled to find info on it, and this forum was a big help.

Now i've gone the planted route, I also hope to read more threads on here for advice.


----------



## Tim Harrison

I did actually mean good luck....just in case that was lost in translation. I hope it works out OK.


----------



## Julian

Well I just found this. Think I'll definitely be getting one.


----------



## Tim Harrison

I'm convinced...


----------



## Rahms

Julian said:


> Well I just found this. Think I'll definitely be getting one.



I'm not saying it doesn't work, as I've never tried it (never had a need)... BUT I don't trust an experiment done _by the manufacturer_ to be independent at all. For all you know it's like big pharma, and this is the 20th test they've done. Or, possibly much more simple, they've just fiddled the results. Not saying that is the case, but whether you're a believer or not, I don't think this removes any of the controversy.

its also pretty strange how they only do this test years after they actually started selling the product. How did they know it works and they weren't just conning people


----------



## Julian

Sorry I should have mentioned spent a while reading up about them and peoples reviews, I'm not just basing my decision entirely on that link I posted.

You have to take a gamble on things now and then, I'm confident that this one will pay off, but at the same time realize that it could all be a placebo.


----------



## Rahms

just bear in mind this may be at work 

anyways, I don't think I've actually ever seen someone suffer from buying a twinstar, so as long as you're not giving up evening meals for it it's not going to do any harm (at least, no more than test kits!)


----------



## Julian

Rahms said:


> just bear in mind this may be at work



Indeed, I have become aware of this behavior in my own subconscious and learnt to challenge it.


----------



## Tim Harrison

Received a Twinstar mini MKii today from Portugal; unsurprisingly it has a transformer with a European plug (slight oversight), are they available with a UK plug or can I just use a European to UK adaptor, and if so will this be OK, as in will it still work and not damage the unit?


----------



## Stu Worrall

Just use a converter for the plug pins and check the transformer is 230-240v and should be ok.  Was it bought online?


----------



## Tim Harrison

Thanks Stu, the input is 100-240v so I'm guessing this is ok, and yep it's from Twinstar Portugal via eBay.
edit: just noticed my OP should read NANO not MINI


----------



## Stu Worrall

Troi said:


> Thanks Stu, the input is 100-240v so I'm guessing this is ok, and yep it's from Twinstar Portugal via eBay.
> edit: just noticed my OP should read NANO not MINI


Yep it will auto sense the connection


----------



## Tim Harrison

So after all this time has anyone found a way to clean the mesh of calcium deposits without damaging it, that works long term?


----------



## Lauris

I keep cleaning it in 7-10% vinegar. In long term.. As long as I have it.. about 9 months. cleaning once a month

I am planted!


----------



## Tim Harrison

Thanks Lauris, and the performance is still good, and hasn't been effected? 
What type of vinegar is that?


----------



## Lauris

not in my case. see no difference. it keeps doing thing as on the first day in

I am planted!


----------



## Tim Harrison

Just got word from APS about cleaning the reactor - '...The manufacturers recommend 20ml sodium hypochlorite to 1000ml of water, and soaking the whole reactor in this...' Not sure that'll get rid of calcium deposits though.
I also found a German blog which recommends 3% HCl http://www.asx2.blogspot.de/2014/04/anleitung-wie-man-eine-twinstar.html
Anyone got any thoughts on these cleaning methods?


----------



## alto

Bleach won't do much for calcium deposits, soaking in RO water might soften them but it would be a slow process ... the vinegar is much less "stressing" than the HCl re acetic acid is usually ~ pH 4 - 4,5 (depending on your water buffering) while the HCl may easily be pH 2.0 (again may vary depending on your tap water buffering), if you splash any HCl you'll certainly notice the difference over vinegar 
Most plastics are acid labile (just as most plastics are weakened by UV)


----------



## alto

meant to clarify that HCl  (also frequently sold as muriatic acid) is a strong acid & Acetic acid (vinegar) is a weak acid
(easier to remember than pH's I think)


----------



## Tim Harrison

...or even Hydrochloric acid...but 3% sol'n is very dilute and apparently after consultation with a chemist it's recommended for cleaning electrodes in the German blog.


----------



## Stu Worrall

just to note make sure you use the correct ratio of vinegar to water as mentioned above.  I used too much vinegar in mine and killed the probe


----------



## Tim Harrison

From what I've read it's easily done, the thing is so delicate...I think I'll use vinegar - its probably the most accessible solution.


----------



## alto

Glass pH electrode membranes are fine with dilute HCl, but I'd expect 3% solution to eventually (or sooner - depending on the plastic composition) to cause "crazing" of the plastic components of the Twinstar device, it may also react (adversely) with metal depending on composition ... of course I'm still waiting for my local shop to even stock the replacement disc 

Note that "concentrated hydrochloric acid" (HCl) is only 37%, so I'd consider a 3% solution as plenty strong, 0.3% would be "dilute" (though I'd still be gloving up during handling)

If Stu did his probe in with straight vinegar (which is generally only 4-7% acetic acid, a weak acid that is not unpleasant on skin, except for the odour, though longer exposures will cause drying & reddening), I'd stay clear of the HCl


----------



## aquascape1987

Sorry,I'm trying to follow this but there are pages and pages and hundreds of posts. I've just managed to get to page 16 and the conversation seems to drift from how it works, which no one had answered... to where you can get them from. As if the original question remained unanswered and was kinda given up on. Yet on the latest posts, someone's saying "we know how it works and what it is" Is it actually known how this thing works?
Can someone enlighten me please?


----------



## xim

aquascape1987 said:


> Is it actually known how this thing works?
> Can someone enlighten me please?



In case you haven't seen this one. 
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/diy-twinstar-thoughts.34795/


----------



## HELIO FROTA

I AM BRAND NEW HERE

Could someone help me on the following:

Can it (TWINSTAR) be used in the Marine Water (Seawater or Saltwater)?
What is the effect in the DO in the Water? Does it increase? How much?
What is the effect in the ph of the water increase? decrease?
What is the effect in the others parameters like ammonia? nitrite? etc,
Can it be uses continuously (non stop) (keep it on in a big tank?)
What is the effect if we increase the voltage (V) and keep the current (Amp) constant?
What is the effect if we increase the current (Amp) and keep the voltage (V) constant?
What are the gás produced?
Is there any preciptated material?
What is the min and max voltage (V) recommended?
What is the min and max current (Amp) recommend?

Thanks


----------



## Julian

HELIO FROTA said:


> I AM BRAND NEW HERE
> 
> Could someone help me on the following:
> 
> Can it (TWINSTAR) be used in the Marine Water (Seawater or Saltwater)?
> What is the effect in the DO in the Water? Does it increase? How much?
> What is the effect in the ph of the water increase? decrease?
> What is the effect in the others parameters like ammonia? nitrite? etc,
> Can it be uses continuously (non stop) (keep it on in a big tank?)
> What is the effect if we increase the voltage (V) and keep the current (Amp) constant?
> What is the effect if we increase the current (Amp) and keep the voltage (V) constant?
> What are the gás produced?
> Is there any preciptated material?
> What is the min and max voltage (V) recommended?
> What is the min and max current (Amp) recommend?
> 
> Thanks



The answer to all of your questions is here.

You are most welcome.


----------



## HELIO FROTA

Julian

Thanks a lot.
I got it. The Twinstar isn't disign to seawater.
Anyhow in case we use it in salt water,
How will It affect the salinity and ph?
Indeed I try it in the seawater...
The water became clear and there was a preciptated substance,
As I am no chemistry, I don´t know what it is...
The only way I had to test it. It was the taste.
The water was still salty, but not like seawater, we can drink it ant it doesn´t hurt the throat like seawater.
My concern is how the twinstar will affect the salinity and of the sea water. And if the good effects in the fresh water will be similar in salt water.

Thanks for the link it was really woth

Helio


----------



## leap

I've been using a Chihiros doctor nano -unconventionally- for several months. I have several small heavily planted tanks - too many to invest in one unit per tank so thought I would experiment.

I started using it as a couple of my Betta's developed fin rot despite all my w/c efforts, so I thought I'd give it a try.

The fish definitely seem to have a tolerance level which oddly varies from fish to fish. At first they seem to enjoy it even actively seeking out the bubbles, but at a certain point they start acting a bit stressed. I have learned to use it appropriately to prevent them getting stressed.
All I can say is that after using it I see rapid fin repair. Before, even with ocd cleaning/filter cleaning & w/c, the fish would sometimes get  fin deterioration and rot. Not any more.

I use the device for a short while ( less than an hour) in any tank I feel needs it. One of my fish can only tolerate 20 mins of it before getting anxious.  My tanks are too small for even nano size recommendations, so there is no way I would use it non stop in any of them.
I don't use it everyday - usually less than an hour for 3 days in a row if a fish has a raggy fin -  otherwise once week - works well for my needs.

One of the things I notice is a _very _fast clarity to the water during use - it does seem to make it noticeably sparkle and the water looks really good for a good few days after.

Algae - I don't get anything other than brown diatom outbreaks and sometimes a little green algae on the glass. I had a minor outbreak of cyno on some moss some weeks ago. I tried it on this - it seemed to help, but I really can't be sure as I also manually removed the stuff from my tank. It never came back though - so maybe it did help.

I put it in a jug of conditioned water and blast it in that a few turns, before it goes into another tank. One thing that puzzles me is that I gave the water in the jug a sniff and it smelt strongly of hydrogen peroxide or maybe chlorine??? - despite being dechlorinated. Not sure what that's about?! Any ideas?

I'd not advise anyone to use it as I do, without very careful observation of their fish.  For fighters it seems to be a fine line - I do think if it was left in too long it would be detrimental to the fish and some other types of fish might react badly, I don't know. I'm breaking manufacturers instructions here, but in my defense, I was desperate.

So far it has been around 6 months of this intermittent use and my fish look happy/healthy. If I even think a fin rot episode might break out, or a fish seems below par,  I use it preventatively. I feel it helped me get on top of an issue that was very troubling and for me it's a relief to not be subjecting my fish to medications and risking upsetting the bio balance of my tanks in the process.

The only pain is the scale build up.  It would do my head in if it was in full time operation in my tanks.
I have a spare diffuser on standby - and I probably get more use out of the diffuser anyway, than if I was using it conventionally.


----------



## 5678

Fwiw, I've bought one to use in my new tank. With nothing conclusive online and some saying works, some saying it doesn't, I thought I'd give it a go!


----------



## leap

Hope you'll let us know if it works for you or not. 
It definitely helps my fish and water clarity. Because my tanks are in a row next to each other it's evident which one just got the chihiros treatment - the water just looks so much brighter.
I'm pleased with mine and when this one gives out I will buy another.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 
Via my "day" job I've been sent a link to a paper looking at REDOX and nano-bubbles in Rice paddy that might be of interest. 
<Irrigation with oxygen-nanobubbles.....>.

cheers Darrel


----------



## JohnC

Any issue with using a version that is larger tank spec recommendation on a smaller tank? (i'm thinking of getting one and moving it around between a 60 and a 150L)

Is there much difference in the size of the unit in the tank?


----------



## PMC

Can't say I know anything about the product at all, but may be able to help with a cleaning suggestion for the build up on the mesh. 

I have a longterm background in reef keeping and to rid equipment of calcium build up I used citric acid. It comes as a powder/small crystals and you can buy it in pharmacies, online (lots of sellers on well know auction site), or in some places that sell baking supplies. It's used in jam production so is food safe. I used to put a couple of tsp of the citric acid powder in a bowl and add warm water, let the equipment soak in that for a few hours and give it a light brushing with an old toothbrush or similar. I've always had great results using citric acid.

Apologies if this was already mentioned in this epic thread, I've just been skim reading through it. I don't think I've been talked into buying one of these devices though


----------



## aquascape1987

I would echo a similar question to John on this. I currently have 2 twinstar nanos for my 200L tank,although the guidelines for the product suggest that I would only need one. Can anyone see any problems in me doubling up in this way? I figured that having 2 would potentially be twice as effective,but now Im wondering if there may be some negative effects as well?


----------



## JohnC

aquascape1987 said:


> I would echo a similar question to John on this. I currently have 2 twinstar nanos for my 200L tank,although the guidelines for the product suggest that I would only need one. Can anyone see any problems in me doubling up in this way? I figured that having 2 would potentially be twice as effective,but now Im wondering if there may be some negative effects as well?



I can't really see why there would be an issue with overdosing, ie overspec. I imagine thou underspec would negate the effect through the tank. But hey, fuzzy science.  The cheap Hong kong knock off seems to give better scope of using it on small to medium tanks with 3 modes rather then 2. I may go for that.


----------



## sanj

Umm...im still not sure about this. I had one running for best part of a year, but it was on a 300l. Not particularly noticed any significant difference since not running it. Perhaps if I had run it in smaller, higher input set up.


----------



## PedroB

Resurrecting this thread with a couple questions:

Are Chihiros Doctors disks compatible with twinstar?
If not, where can I buy replacement disks?

Thank you


----------



## Mortis

Im using a Chihiros disc with my Twinstar. It works but there is a bit of a time delay i.e. if the twinstar runs for 10 seconds then the Chihiros disc turns on only after 3-4 seconds. Other than that its the same. No idea if others have the same issue as I cant find anything online other than mentions of the two being compatible and working. Try it out and see


----------



## Ricardo Romão

Hello guys,

Please do not use chihiros discs on the Twinstar, you can damage the product. Chihiros is a copy, so they may look like the same, but they are not for sure.

The uniqueness in Twinstar is the algorithm (automatic program) inside the IC (inteligent controller), that's why there are so many different models. And It does not works with a timer. 

Moreover, in the 2nd version they have even better performance, so the program is even better.

Also, they may try to copy the design, but the quality of the reactor is not the same as well. 

Please contact* Twinstar Iberica* or buy it at amazon uk.


----------



## Tim Harrison

Thanks that sounds like sensible advice, it's suppose to be a consumable anyway...
I've been using a Twinstar on my latest project, "Windblown Eternity", and it seems to be working - not even the slightest sign of algae, or melt...I know tempting providence, famous last words...and all that
Either way I don't care, I just love watching all those micro bubbles working their way around my scape; it's worth the money just for sheer entertainment value, and as a flow indicator


----------



## Ricardo Romão

In fact it is very useful, save me a lot of time on the maintenance and it simple ...works! However it cannot do miracles when we have bigger problems 
Anyway, the thing that I really enjoy, despite the lower maintenance and algae inhibition, is the crystal clear look in the aquarium. I cannot see the water when I look through the aquarium


----------



## PedroB

Ricardo Romão, thank you very much for the advice, but coming from Twinstars representative for Iberia I'll take your opinion with a grain of salt.

I have a chihiros disk plugged to my twinstar IC and so far so good. I already had spent 160£ on my Original twinstar nano and couldn't find replacement disks anywhere, so my options would be to buy a fake disk that may break for 25£ or a brand new Twinstar nano 2 for 150£ (with very limited availability in the UK).

Since you are representing the brand, please let them know that not offering parts for a 3 year old expensive product, discontinuing it and replacing it with a new (incompatible) product is not a nice business model, twinstar is not apple.


----------



## Ricardo Romão

Pedro, before being a Twinstar representative I'm an aquarium hobbyist since I was 5 years old. Despite that I don't deal with products that do not work, that's not how I do things. My word is more important than everything.

Regarding your question, the new replacement disks are compatible with the old Twinstar Nano. We took it into account. In the Twinstar's Website you can see the Twinstar dealer for the UK, however you can buy it directly from *Twinstar Iberica* or at *Amazon UK* very soon. For other doubts, even if you think they sound "amateur", please feel free to ask here or to contact us


----------



## Ricardo Romão

This is not supposed to but this aquarium does not see any water change in 5 weeks. Weekly fertilization (sometimes we miss 1 week). Photos by phone, without photoshop

2 Twinstar Nano on it, our showroom.

P.S: Our job is to test the product extensively, so please don't see this as a standard procedure.


----------



## aquascape1987

At the end of the day, the big mystery technology that Twinstars manufacturers won't reveal any details about, in their product info or website is actually electrolysis. It's been known to the human race since the late 18th century.

And since the laws of physics of the universe  haven't changed since the Twinstar was developed,that's exactly why the chihiros disc does work with the Twinstar.

Because the chihiros disc and the Twinstar discs are both nothing more than two pieces of mesh, that act as electrodes.

I am the owner of 2 Twinstar nanos,  which I haven't tested on a tank yet, and am now selling because I opted to get my aquarium balance correct,in conjunction with keeping a clean up crew of ottos and amanos, as a means of controlling algae. So I'm not going to say it doesn't work,and indeed there are many people who have tested and say it does. But the point I'm making is, it isn't some radically advanced alien technology, and you could replace the heads with something home made, if you knew what you were doing.


----------



## PedroB

Exactly aquascape1987! Its not magic, its science, and I'll take it as cheap as I can.

Do I think Twinstar has the better product? Yes I do, it looks much better designed and built!
Do I feel that there will be some magic in a brand name piece of mesh? Not really.

Ricardo Romão, I'm not saying that your product doesn't work, or that it doesn't work better than the competition, I believe that. But if the competition makes a product that also works for a fraction of the price (even if it doesn't work as well) maybe some people will like that product better.
I also understand that you would not comment on the other product, for good or for bad, but this an unbranded forum where people share their opinions on everything, so we want to deal with facts, not marketing talk or biased opinions. There is room in the world for coca cola and pepsi, just don't make up facts about competition.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,





PedroB said:


> Do I feel that there will be some magic in a brand name piece of mesh? Not really.


It might be to do with the coating of the mesh, if Twinstar uses a  platinum coated titanium mesh, and Chihiros doesn't, it might account for the price difference.

cheers Darrel


----------



## PedroB

Yes Darrel, that would be an explanation. If that is the case, I urge twinstar to say it, make it a selling point.

Right now, twinstar only tells us that they're unique and the product just works, no one says what makes it unique and why does it work better, and that gives me an itch.


----------



## Ricardo Romão

PedroB said:


> Yes Darrel, that would be an explanation. If that is the case, I urge twinstar to say it, make it a selling point.
> 
> Right now, twinstar only tells us that they're unique and the product just works, no one says what makes it unique and why does it work better, and that gives me an itch.



I truly understand that you would like to know more details, I really do. However if the Chinese tried to copy it, without saying more details, imagine if they would say. They are only protecting their product and their intellectual property.

People are very professional in Korea and the company that produces Twinstar have a big know-how. Please take a look to their major achievements in the website: http://www.enbion.co.kr/sub01/sub017.html
We also have a lecture in you tube, where you can learn more ( I hope so ) :



I'm also attaching a test regarding fish models. 

I do not worry about discussions and different opinions. Or I would not be here, so feel free to ask any doubt


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,





PedroB said:


> Right now, twinstar only tells us that they're unique and the product just works, no one says what makes it unique and why does it work better, and that gives me an itch.


 Without going all the way through the thread, we think it is a micro or  nano-bubble generator, like this patent <"http://www.google.co.uk/patents/US20060054205">.

It isn't a product that I would use, or can really see any use for. It would be fair to say I'm pretty sceptical about most "magic bullets".

cheers Darrel


----------



## PedroB

Ricardo Romão said:


> I truly understand that you would like to know more details, I really do. However if the Chinese tried to copy it, without saying more details, imagine if they would say. They are only protecting their product and their intellectual property.



Patents exist for this purpose. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against this company, I just want this type of device to be democratized and widely available.


----------



## CooKieS

Hi,

Got an twinstar mini, used it to avoid algae bloom at the start of my iwagumi, sold it after 4 months.

Still no algae...no difference with or without it.


----------



## cdwill

Here's what I think is the same technology, with a similar distribution system, but marketed toward a different purpose (hydroponics) 

This may address questions about cleaning calcium buildup 

Note that I am not affiliated with this company in any way, have not used and am not endorsing this product, and have never used Twinstar.  Just thought this would be interesting.

If there's a YouTube country restriction, search for Oxygen Research Group or O2 Grow.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





cdwill said:


> Here's what I think is the same technology, with a similar distribution system, but marketed toward a different purpose


 Yes, that looks like it uses the same technology.

I think you can split the micro/nano oxygen bubble generator effects into two components:

There is the sterilization effect, described in the patent <"Nanobubble utilization method and device - US 20060054205 A1"> and referenced on this very informative page  <"Nanobubbles (ultrafine.....)">, and 

The oxygenation effect.
I feel much the same about the sterilization effect as I do about UV, or any other _<"magic bullets_">, they might work, but they are really just sticking plasters compared to plants and efficient biological filtration.

Plants and efficient biological filtration really go hand in hand, and the reason for this is largely an oxygen effect.

Fundamentally the more oxygen we have available the more ammonia (NH3/NH4+) our system can process. If you read the blurb from <"O2Grow"> it makes a lot of play of production of "pure oxygen" and compares this to air stones etc, which add air, which is only 21% oxygen etc.

The difference for us is that submerged plants saturate the water with "pure oxygen", during the photo-period, via photosynthesis. Some of that oxygen will be consumed via respiration during the dark period, but plants are net oxygen producers, partially because their internal tissues are saturated with oxygen at the end of the photo-period, and this is then used for respiration during the night.

The quicker a plant grows the more CO2 it has converted into carbohydrates (sugars, cellulose etc) and the more oxygen it has evolved. For a plant in active growth we are looking at about x10 more oxygen produced than consumed. You can get an idea of this from plant growth, for every molecule of CO2 fixed an O2 molecule is evolved, and the net addition of CO2 is visible as the plant growth.

The same also applies to microbial  filtration, if we a system with a large gas exchange surface to volume ratio levels of dissolved gases will equilibrate more closely with the atmosphere. You can deal with a huge bioload with a <"wet and dry trickle filter"> (have a look at Tom Barr's post ), because it has a large gas exchange surface.

cheers Darrel


----------



## FreeFall

if anyone is interested


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke

Yeah, I watched the same video the other day. Was also going to post it here but you beat me to it. He does say that it's only how he thinks it works. Sorry if this has already been covered, I haven't read through the entire thread.


----------



## rebel

Would these lower the water levels faster by presumably breaking down H2O?


----------



## iunknown

Has anyone measured the difference in oxygen?  I'm thinking of renting a dissolved oxygen meter.  What would a typical ppm of a newly established tank be vs and established tank vs a tank with the twinstar?


----------



## rebel

iunknown said:


> Has anyone measured the difference in oxygen?  I'm thinking of renting a dissolved oxygen meter.  What would a typical ppm of a newly established tank be vs and established tank vs a tank with the twinstar?


You should also check a tank with air stone.


----------



## iunknown

rebel said:


> You should also check a tank with air stone.



Or a tank with a wet/dry filter.  I would guess it's about the same.  These seem to make most sense with a canister filter setup.


----------



## Ricardo Romão

FreeFall said:


> if anyone is interested





AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Yeah, I watched the same video the other day. Was also going to post it here but you beat me to it. He does say that it's only how he thinks it works. Sorry if this has already been covered, I haven't read through the entire thread.





iunknown said:


> Or a tank with a wet/dry filter.  I would guess it's about the same.  These seem to make most sense with a canister filter setup.





rebel said:


> You should also check a tank with air stone.





Hello,

I think you are misunderstanding some points, that I will resume to be more specific:



Water electrolysis was invented around the year 1789. So you are watching a video from a guy, which never used the product and is just doing water electrolysis. This is not what twinstar is about!
The innovation in twinstar is the controller with a different program, to inhibit green algae/promote plant growth, prevent fish or shrimp diseases, depending on model;
You have a different algorithm to inhibit green algae, prevent fish or shrimp diseases. And they are completely harmless to both fauna and flora and this is why there are no models up to 800 liters or so.
This control is done by a microprocessor with a program that changes according to the life cycle of the aquarium;
If you don't know how to control the process and apply the right “quantities”, this can be harmful for both fauna and flora;
This is not an ozone producer;
Twinstar has no timer inside to control the process;
All you need to understand the product you can find in the following video. About the "secret", what would you do? Give the golden goose to everyone?


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,





iunknown said:


> Has anyone measured the difference in oxygen? I'm thinking of renting a dissolved oxygen meter. What would a typical ppm of a newly established tank be vs and established tank vs a tank with the twinstar?


I don't have a Twinstar, but I do have a dissolved oxygen meter. The experience I've had with the planted tanks is that the water is fully saturated with dissolved oxygen during the photo-period. If you have a wet and dry trickle filter you can maintain pretty full oxygenation even during the night, unless you have a very large bio-load.

I think the advantage of a Twinstar would be as a <"nano and micro-bubble generator">, but again whether it really offers an advantage is probably in the eye of the beholder. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## iunknown

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,I don't have a Twinstar, but I do have a dissolved oxygen meter. The experience I've had with the planted tanks is that the water is fully saturated with dissolved oxygen during the photo-period. If you have a wet and dry trickle filter you can maintain pretty full oxygenation even during the night, unless you have a very large bio-load.
> 
> I think the advantage of a Twinstar would be as a <"nano and micro-bubble generator">, but again whether it really offers an advantage is probably in the eye of the beholder.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Darrel, how does the meter represent 100% saturation in ppm?  Is there any advantage from hydrogen?  The same way people add barley to create hydrogen peroxide as an algeacide.    Also they seem to imply a water softening effect, and therefore an improvement in fertilizer uptake and therefore plant health.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,





iunknown said:


> how does the meter represent 100% saturation in ppm?


Usually as percentage, the meter measures in mg/l (ppm), but then uses the <"conversion factor for temperature"> to give % saturation. Conductivity and barometric pressure are also factors, although most of us can ignore them. If you live in Denver, and want to keep a marine aquarium, they would need to be factored in. 





iunknown said:


> Is there any advantage from hydrogen?


I wouldn't thing so, hydrogen isn't very soluble, so it will just out-gas.

cheers Darrel


----------



## rebel

Darrel, what sort of average values are you getting for you tanks as maximum and minimum. How about your tap water? What do you get for distilled water which has been left standing for a while?


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,





rebel said:


> Darrel, what sort of average values are you getting for you tanks as maximum and minimum.


 I still haven't connected the oxygen probes we have to a data logger, although I'm pretty sure you can.

During the photoperiod I usually just use the lab. tank to test the integrity of the DO meter sensor membrane, if the meter won't equilibrate (and stabilise) at ~100% saturation then the membrane is damaged. For various reasons we usually record in mg/l (ppm), so for an aquarium at ~27oC and a barometric pressure of ~1015mb, will have a dissolved oxygen of about 8 mg/l, although this value can be higher (more than 100% saturation). 

There is a quick and dirty conversion chart at <"Water on the Web: Dissolved Oxygen">.






There is more discussion of @BigTom experiment in <"Maxing CO2 in Low Techs"> where he looks at pH over a diurnal cycle, and the curves indicate that  you are actually looking at changes in the relative concentrations of CO2/O2.

In some ways "dissolved oxygen" is different from nearly every other parameter in that you can have excellent levels 99.9% of the time, but any period of low oxygen levels can cause fish death. Rheophilic fish from cooler waters are particularly at risk, and large fish are more at risk than small ones (large fish actually need less oxygen per unit body mass than small fish of the same shape, but they need more oxygen in total). 

Apologies for the cross forum post, but there is more discussion in <"Apistogramma Forums:SA themed Riparium">  and <"PlanetCatfish:Thumbrule for stocking">.





rebel said:


> How about your tap water? What do you get for distilled water which has been left standing for a while?


Both of these should equilibrate to 100% saturation, because they have no oxidisable materials in them and they are biologically sterile. How long it takes to equilibrate will depend upon the area of the gas exchange surface.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Manuel Arias

Hi there,

I am more in the Darrel's side here: I feel very skeptical about this specific device.
The reason is because many of the explanations of Twinstar make no-sense at all, or are even contradictory. Their resistance to explain how works is also highly suspicious. And the arguments they offer to justify why they do not tell are just crap.

Let's me explain me:

1. If the method is so advanced or novel that they are scared about being copied, that's why patents were invented. They can pay the patent and ensuring the legal exploitation in exclusivity of the technology, which allows them to tell people how works, and solving this non-sense discussion.
2. If the problem is they are worried of being copied, this is bloody stupid. Any company with some funding and good engineers can buy some and do reverse engineering to see how works and copy it. Likely Chihiros company did. Chinese are expert into this, as Apple well knows.
3. Ah! Sorry, the trick is in the software of the IC... Well, it would be the discovery of the history building a software able to remove algae. The algorithm will, at most, control the working routine and operations (as explained in the thread, regulating operating times, sequences, etc, or even controlling input and/or output power). But it will not have any sterilizing effect, and by having some simple electric devices and monitoring power in the circuit components, you can guess what the algorithm does. No rocket science, but laborious.

Additionally to this:

1. They claim that cannot kill existing algae, just prevent to happen. This makes really difficult to test if the device really works: if you have algae and you put it, you will not get rid of the algae, anyway.
2. They say that you need to add Twinstar followed with the usual maintenance routine: Cleaning the tank, removing existing algae, water change, adding the usual crew...Hold a minute...If I do that, I do not get algae for a start, in any tank, so I do not need this. When we have algae is for a good reason.
3. They affirm the device is not generating ozone and the bubbles are just pure oxygen. Hold a minute...if this is true, and it is only oxygen, then obviously this is an electrolysis device operating with a differential of electrode potential below 1.23V or it is the output of a secondary effect. We are thankful for not generating ozone, because ozone is really toxic for fishes, and you do not want to generate it inside the tank. There is no other way in which the device would generate "pure oxygen". But perhaps, only perhaps, the "sterelization factor" is something else and the electrolysis effect is just a side effect, which could happen.
4. They negate any possibility: They affirm that does not generate ozone, that does not alter pH or REDOX potential, but still has sterilization capability. Such a miracle.

But let's assume they are not lying. Besides, some or many people using it see a difference, and I do not think everyone is lying (perhaps some of them after investing money in a useless device). Even if some of the affirmations are clearly marketing and not true, this thing has to work somehow. Only option I see of not using electrolysis is then ultrasonic electrolysis, i.e. splitting water molecules using high frequency vibration. In the points of cavitation the mechanical energy will disrupt cells passing by the device. This will also explain why cannot work over existing algae, or why some algae grow in the surroundings of the device. The cavitation process must happen in a very localized area (probably between the plates, and reached by interference of waves). This also would explain why they need a more or less complex external unit to control it. Even so, looking at the design, I am not totally sure, but it is the only thing that fits.

Nonetheless, I still do not see the point if you have to run the normal maintenance of the tank, anyway.

Cheers,
Manuel


----------



## Timon Vogelaar

Manuel Arias said:


> Only option I see of not using electrolysis is then ultrasonic electrolysis, i.e. splitting water molecules using high frequency vibration. In the points of cavitation the mechanical energy will disrupt cells passing by the device. This will also explain why cannot work over existing algae, or why some algae grow in the surroundings of the device. The cavitation process must happen in a very localized area (probably between the plates, and reached by interference of waves). This also would explain why they need a more or less complex external unit to control it.




Private detective Manual solved the case


----------



## iunknown

Manuel Arias said:


> Nonetheless, I still do not see the point if you have to run the normal maintenance of the tank, anyway.



I'd say to get through the setup phase.  Save time required to clean all that mess and to save valuable plants purchased.

I broke out my multimeter and measured voltage on the reactor.  It has a safety mechanism that shuts the twinstar down when I applied the multimeter.  If you look at videos of Ultrasonic electrolysis, the bubbles that are formed look much bigger:

I don't know enough about water electrolysis, but it sounds like you need a catalyst to help electricity flow.  The videos show using baking soda to get electrolysis to work.  How would that work in an aquarium?


----------



## X3NiTH

Great write up Manuel but something is missing.

The missing something is that the expensive electrodes are Platinum and Titanium. The Titanium is important here because when exposed to water it forms an oxide layer on its surface, if you then electrolyse this H₂O₂ is a constituent byproduct from the reaction. Superfish have a skimmer type in tank device on the market that states precisely that it is producing H₂O₂ as a beneficial byproduct through the electrolysis of titanium, both anode and cathode are titanium mesh, it's sold as an aquarium sterilisation product, the magic isn't obfuscated in a patent its printed as a nice graphic on the box, Maidenhead Aquatics stock this device on their shelves. Patents for the electrolysis of titanium for catalysing reactions in water and peroxide generation date back into the late 1960's, these are likely expired patents or the premium for compensating the patent holder is low value, hence the Superfish product being upfront about how it's working they don't have to obfuscate as the science behind it is already published

The electrodes in the Twinstar are sacrificial hence why they market replacements. The sacrificial part is the Titanium mesh, the electrolysed titanium will produce its oxide this can be evidenced by the need to clean the device to shift an accretion of a white substance that can form in the mesh (is deposit on Platinum part?). The oxide of titanium is white it goes in white paint, toothpaste, lots of things, plenty of it in sunscreen which coincidentally if you go to see the Great Barrier Reef or other places where the marine ecosystem is sensitive its repeated ad infinitum that you are not permitted to wear sunscreen before entering the water as its harmful to the ecosystem. 

The reason for the last bit up there is that TiO₂ is a super catalyst and doesn't need to be exposed to current under electrolysis to catalyse water into H₂O₂.

TiO₂ also catalyses water to H₂O₂ when energised by ultraviolet light in the UVA range (UVA  and UVB have deep water penetration ability extending down to 20 metres, UVC is about a centimetre), if I remember Peak reaction in the UVB range near 320nm. Coral reefs get lots of UVA and UVB, they don't particularly like H₂O₂ as its heavier than water and will sink onto the reef below where it was formed (where UV is higher). H₂O₂ kills lots of things beneficial to the marine environment, unfortunately from research elsewhere it won't kill the Dinoflaggelate Ostreopsis at doses that doesn't kill everything else, if that's all that ends up living on the reef then that's not just really bad but epic bad.

What is also interesting about this UV reaction with TiO₂ is that if you remove the UV the reaction works in reverse and H₂O₂ is reduced back to H₂O and O₂.

I posted something about this elsewhere in the forum with a suggestion for an anti algae device (Passive Type, UV catalysis of TiO₂), I did a lot of homework, I had the plugin inline device all squared away in my head, couldnt sleep for two days because of thinking about this, felt like I had discovered something, that was until a couple of days later that I discovered a Japanese paper describing my exact device I had imagined in my head laid out nice and clear with the supporting science and a nice little graphic. It's a device for sterilisation of water (grey water treatment), even found a paper bubbling ozone through the reactor to increase sterilisation potential (this it turns out produces TiO3 which is even more catalyticaly reactive than TiO₂, I think H2O3 appears somewhere in the reaction). The paper had been out nearly two years before I had the brainwave after digesting the BBA thread here. It's stitched up behind a Patent though, ah well there goes that idea. There's plenty other patents covering pretty much all the avenues from using TiO₂ and UV together for catalysation for sterilisation purposes from trickle filters for sewage treatment works all the way to ships bilge tank water sterilisation (this bubbled ozone into the reaction for greater effect). 

You can't patent the electrolysis of Titanium to produce H₂O₂, already done, it's reversal reaction of using TiO₂ in the absence of UV to consume H₂O₂ probably also done. I'm stating the reverse reaction because if O₂ is the only stated byproduct of Twinstars reaction it explains where the peroxide went (need to have free particulate TiO₂ suspended in the water column and there be no UVA or B to energise it to catalyse H₂O₂, how does a Twinstar tank fare when UV is present over the tank in sufficient quantities ie Metal Halide). If ultrasonics are at play it may be to dislodge TiO₂ into the water column and depending on whether UV is energising it from above it will either consume or produce H₂O₂.

You can patent the Black Box bit with the specialist electronic timing routines but everything else hanging of from it has prior art!


----------



## Jack Reilly

Is it safe to use the model up from your tank size ? So if you use the one recommended for 200liters on a 100 liter tank, what happens ?


----------



## Tim Harrison

...You fry your critters...
Personally, I wouldn't risk it. Unless the different sizes are a marketing gimmick, they've obviously been designed with safety margins...phrases like "killing apparatus" should tell you all you need to know http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/twinstar-what-is-it.28335/page-26


----------



## Jack Reilly

Are you supposed to run these 24/7 or on a timer ?


----------



## Ricardo Romão

@Jack Reilly you just need to turn it on and select the right mode. The rest is totally automatic.


----------



## JamieB

Has anyone used Chihiros alternatives? I can't figure out the differences between the model range as there's several models suitable for a 120L tank for example
http://www.hinterfeld.com/uk-aquari...-chihiros-doctor-ii-inhibit-algae-sterilizer/


----------



## Jack Reilly

Don't they market them for different uses such as fish disease and shrimp etc? Theyre probably all the same.


----------



## JamieB

Yeh that's what confused me as I am sure they'd all be the same other than the size of the disc!


----------



## Tim Harrison

I think that it probably has more to do with frequency and duration of operation...e.g. greater frequency and longer duration in a bigger tank and vice-versa for a smaller tank.


----------



## Jack Reilly

Tim Harrison said:


> I think that it probably has more to do with frequency and duration of operation...e.g. greater frequency and longer duration in a bigger tank and vice-versa for a smaller tank.


That's probably the case for the different tank sizes but they also sell different models within each tank size that apparently have different uses.


----------



## Tim Harrison

Yeah you're right, I'm not convinced that there could be a big difference between those models either.


----------



## Ricardo Romão

Tim Harrison said:


> Yeah you're right, I'm not convinced that there could be a big difference between those models either.



There is a big difference, the program is different. The capacity of each model is not random, for example the biggest model for plants is the nano plus up to 250 liters. The bigger model to prevent fish diseases is the Yotta Plus, up to 450 liters in mode 3.

Yotta Plus is not as effective as Nano Plus is for algae.

Shrimp models are different as well.


----------



## Ricardo Romão

JamieB said:


> Yeh that's what confused me as I am sure they'd all be the same other than the size of the disc!



The difference between models from the same application is the capacity.

From different applications (green algae, fish or shrimp diseases), the difference is both capacity and the program inside the microprocessor.


----------



## Alexander Belchenko

Does anybody know can I use twinstar M3 on standard 60cm tank? There is available only M3 and Nano plus in my area, and price difference is about 1.5x. M3 supposed to be used with 20 to 50 liters tank, I suppose it's for really nano tank. I don't understand why local distributor provided smallest and biggest models only. M5 is more universal as I understand.


----------



## Tim Harrison

Ricardo Romão said:


> There is a big difference, the program is different. The capacity of each model is not random, for example the biggest model for plants is the nano plus up to 250 liters. The bigger model to prevent fish diseases is the Yotta Plus, up to 450 liters in mode 3.
> 
> Yotta Plus is not as effective as Nano Plus is for algae.
> 
> Shrimp models are different as well.


Thanks for confirming that Ricardo. It'd be interesting to know what exactly this difference is though. That is, what the various capacity and programs are and what difference they actually make.


----------



## Jack Reilly

Ricardo Romão said:


> The difference between models from the same application is the capacity.
> 
> From different applications (green algae, fish or shrimp diseases), the difference is both capacity and the program inside the microprocessor.


So if you use the one for plants it covers fish and shrimp diseases too? Why would anyone buy the model for shrimp diseases?


----------



## Ricardo Romão

Tim Harrison said:


> Thanks for confirming that Ricardo. It'd be interesting to know what exactly this difference is though. That is, what the various capacity and programs are and what difference they actually make.



You're welcome 
Depending on the model it can works more or less time, during more or less time with more or less "strength". All of this without a timer.


----------



## Ricardo Romão

Jack Reilly said:


> So if you use the one for plants it covers fish and shrimp diseases too? Why would anyone buy the model for shrimp diseases?



Shrimps models are used for shrimp breeders.

Fish models are not as effective as models for plants to inhibit green algae.


----------



## ourmanflint

I have just come across the Chihiros Doctor and found this Twinstar thread. What a lot of fuss about it.

Twinstar and the Chihiros doctor are Water Electrolysis devices that produce ozone, which in turn kills algae and prevents competition for nutrients from said algae. It is quite a clever idea, but will never be granted a patent, because there is nothing to patent all the ideas that encompass this have already been done many decades ago, and you cannot patent algorithms unless they solve some technical feat that has previously been unable to do by any other means. 

The killing of algae probably allows the plants to have sole use of available nutrients, hence why they seem to grow better with twinstar than without.

It's hardly rocket science.


----------



## Ricardo Romão

ourmanflint said:


> I have just come across the Chihiros Doctor and found this Twinstar thread. What a lot of fuss about it.
> 
> Twinstar and the Chihiros doctor are Water Electrolysis devices that produce ozone, which in turn kills algae and prevents competition for nutrients from said algae. It is quite a clever idea, but will never be granted a patent, because there is nothing to patent all the ideas that encompass this have already been done many decades ago, and you cannot patent algorithms unless they solve some technical feat that has previously been unable to do by any other means.
> 
> The killing of algae probably allows the plants to have sole use of available nutrients, hence why they seem to grow better with twinstar than without.
> 
> It's hardly rocket science.




Did you test twinstar?


----------



## Tim Harrison

The thread has been there...seen that...done that, and...tried the pie
It's a very long convoluted thread so it's difficult to pull random info from, but last I checked the general consensus was it produces micro O2 bubbles, and is not an O3 generator.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,





Tim Harrison said:


> but last I checked the general consensus was it produces micro O2 bubbles, and is not an O3 generator.


We think it is a oxygen nano-bubble generator, and this technology <"does have a patent">. 

Have a look at <"page 33 & page 34"> of this thread.

cheers Darrel


----------



## ourmanflint

Physics applies the same no matter where you are, the only possible output from electrolysis of water is , H2, O2 & O3

There are zero other outcomes this is absolute!


----------



## ourmanflint

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,We think it is a oxygen nano-bubble generator, and this technology <"does have a patent">.
> 
> Have a look at <"page 33 & page 34"> of this thread.
> 
> cheers Darrel


 Yes of course it produces micro bubbles of O2 but it also produces ozone, it is impossible for it not to. As for the patent, it's just an application in the USA, you can patent almost anything in the US, not valid anywhere else though


----------



## ourmanflint

Ricardo Romão said:


> Did you test twinstar?


Why would I need to? I'm not saying it doesn't work, but it works by very conventional means, there is nothing magic about it. Ozone and O2 will kill unicellular algae, nothing new there.


----------



## tmiravent

The discussion still rolling, nice! 

Does anyone know how is made the new chihiros mesh?
Very surprised with that one! 
It claims that is no need to clean...

Now i'm using Twinstar mesh in a simple timer/power supply (same result's, not so pretty or fancy)
And Chihiros mesh in Twinstar Nano, just for fun! (this new mesh is crazy)

I find some 'improvement' in water quality/clarity and better look in plants.
I'll put 'electrolysi' in external reactor, still not convinced about the 'white gear' inside the tank...

cheers


----------



## iunknown

The chihiros mesh is much better.  I've been using it with the twinstar unit (brain) and have been really pleased with the performance.  I dosed too much urea and got green dust algae.  But where the twinstar bubbles hit the glass there was no algae.


----------



## Ricardo Romão

ourmanflint said:


> Why would I need to? I'm not saying it doesn't work, but it works by very conventional means, there is nothing magic about it. Ozone and O2 will kill unicellular algae, nothing new there.



Contrary to the other copies, Twinstar is not harmful to plants or fish. And the radicals are only available in the water for a few fractions of time. It is tested in the laboratory.


----------



## tmiravent

Hi Ricardo, would be nice to see that test. 
Always nice to discuss these gears with some ' sientific' info.
Also very nice to side by side test, in that way we could see the 'things'  that are diferent.
merry Christmas to everyone!
cheers


----------



## three-fingers

Ricardo Romão said:


> Contrary to the other copies, Twinstar is not harmful to plants or fish. And the radicals are only available in the water for a few fractions of time. It is tested in the laboratory.


So... how exactly is it not harmful at all? What makes Twinstar different from copies?

Being present for a short time doesn't mean it's not harmful at all, the negative effects are just reduced due to less exposure, same goes for any perceived positive effects.  I should note that I think that both the negative and "positive" effects are pretty much negligible with this device, from everything I've seen online over the past few years anyway.

After years of reading about these online, they still don't seem an attractive option to me, and I actually like buying new gadgets. However small,  I can still only perceive negative effects on fish/shrimp/bacteria the same as the algae it harms and this goes against my style of fish and plant keeping.

I don't like using gluteraldehyde either for the same reasons.

I can see why it would be very attractive if you believe the marketing and are mainly interested in aesthetics as opposed to the welfare of livestock though.

Some people in the hobby are just more interested in gadgets/technology than biology, which is fine as long as no misleading claims are made.  I wouldn't use one if I was given it for free, there are cheaper/more sustainable ways to maintain an algae-free planted tank.


----------



## alto

three-fingers said:


> I can see why it would be very attractive if you <snip> are mainly interested in aesthetics as opposed to the welfare of livestock though.



In what way is it harmful?


----------



## foxfish

I wonder if Twinstar has been a financial sucsess?

I am a member of several  forums that have discussed the device and there does appear to be quite a few satisfied purchasers!
That is not to say it is beneficial for our tanks but, the device seems to have made a lot of people quite happy!

I use lots of things that I know are not good for me, doesn't stop me buying them though!
In fact a glass of champagne looks a bit like a Twinstar in action


----------



## three-fingers

alto said:


> In what way is it harmful?


In the same unknown way some people think it is beneficial. It's meant to "sterilise" or "kill" algae. The manufacturers do not say exactly how it works, but there is no magic device or chemical that can do this in aquariums without also harming beneficial microorganisms.  After years being on sale, this device still hasn't demonstrated such an ability - there is no evidence at all - only subjective user anecdotes of minimal perceived positive effects, and lots of healthy skepticism/direct criticism from many experts.

The expert aquascapers (some also sell the units) that have used them can't explain how they work either, and nobody has even attempted to explain how it could have negative effects on algae but not beneficial microorganisms.

In absence of a manufacturers explanation, we have deduced that it is probably creating oxygen microbubbles + ozone -and if this is the case, then it is both harmful to algae and beneficial microorganisms.

http://www.ozonesolutions.com/journal/2010/how-does-ozone-kill-bacteria/


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke

I recently purchased the doctor one from Hinterfield but can't comment on positive or negative effects as yet. The Twinstar without definite benefits was a bit rich for my blood at three times the price. I based the logic for buying it on the fact many very experienced scapers seemed to have used one with positive results, however that begged the question would they have had similar results without using it? I suppose unless someone is prepared to set up two identical tanks and trial it one with and one without we will never likely know.

Looking into the science side of things the general census of opinion that was repeating was that it had an oxygen enriching effect combined with a slight sterilising effect using o3. Hinterfield themselves also agree that there is nothing better than good tank/filter husbandry to keep things in good condition but these are more aimed at people who don't have as much time on their hands as a bit of a sticking plaster.

That's the category I fit in, I like to keep on top of my tank but I also have a very busy lifestyle and sometimes the water change and filter clean have to wait until I can do it so in the mean time it may help. Also, my particular tank is quite good at holding co2 over night because I don't have a great deal of surface agitation which I assume also goes for oxygen being atmospherically absorbed in. Sure the plants should provide the oxygen through the lighting period to keep things in check through the dark period but I guess a little pure o2 via the doctor at lights off can't be a bad thing? I was looking at maybe setting an air stone up on a timer but this bit of kit supposedly kills two birds with one stone.

Regarding the sterilising effect, we also know that Ozone in tanks has been used for some time to kill algae and harmful bacteria. It would appear that these devices have been set up with and internal timer of some description so that they only dose enough for it not to be harmful to fish and filter. It would be good to see the data of what is in fact an harmful level and how the calculations were made to prevent this level being reached. Hence the "algae inhibitor" and "steriliser" versions. One would assume that bacteria require a slightly higher dosing than the algae to destroy it. Obviously because our tanks contain different volumes of water there was no one size fits all hence the three settings which appear on mine to be in 30 ltr increments. So the mini is for 60-120 ltr tanks giving you the ability to tune the dose further depending on your actual volume. Turning it up just increases the frequency its operation. The argument still does exist though that if it kills off good bacteria then by default it will also destroy the beneficial ones. It does say in the instructions (in pigeon English ) to avoid putting it anywhere near the inlet of the filter. Again I would assume that would be because the o3 by the time it has reached the inlet has already oxidized with whatever and has lost it's spare o and is now just a fine o2 bubble being dissolved into the column and not sucking o3 directly into the filter canister destroying the helpful bacteria that reside within. My understanding is, especially when we carry out huge WC at times of issues that this has no negative effect on the beneficial bacteria because the majority of it is inside the filter or attached to surfaces in the tank. So killing off any beneficial bacteria in the column is as such no different than carrying out large WC's no?

To summarise I think essentially it is an Ozone creator with some level of control which may be beneficial for people who just need a bit of an helping hand same as liquid carbon is. It provides a mild sterilising effect, enrichment of oxygen levels and kills off algae spores in the column preventing certain spores replicating and feeding off nutrients in the column leaving more for the plants. No bad thing. Yes there is another way of achieving this, the natural way and a way that we all in this board strongly advocate but it's just another gadget that helps same as the filter is. We could all set up tanks using soil and no dosing/filtration with just enough live stock to provide nutrients and the correct amount of lighting to sustain the amount of nutrients and co2 naturally produced Walstead style without changing any water but unfortunately we all buy equipment and lighting that accelerates plant growth to have the scapes we dream of and see in here and we end up  buying gadgets like these to make up for the shortfall of effort.

All this of course is just my opinion of course based on what I've read by people with far more insight than I.


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke

Just to add to that because I missed my edit time  Another point may be that I read somewhere I think on one of DW's posts that increased oxygen in filters makes the filter more productive as more waste can be broken down o2 being the limiting factor so the residual o2 created post o3 stripping out whatever it has came in contact with first being sucked into the filter can be seen as possibly beneficial also. I'm all for keeping things has nature intended, I am a purist that way but in this case I see the Twinstar/Doctor has being more natural than liquid carbon. Basically it has used a small electric charge to convert what was already in the aquarium splitting two molecules into two atoms both beneficial at the correct amounts which destroys pollution the same has been happening in our upper atmosphere since the beginning of time. LC on the other hand is a harsh chemical harmful to fish/plants and user if not used correctly.

Tom Barr did comment that o2 is also toxic at too high levels as is o3. Maybe what Chihiros and Twinstar have done is calculated these levels and came up with a product that takes the leg work out for you and came up with a better way of dosing it in the aquarium than previous methods. And that is their "Secret" or not so as the case may be.


----------



## alto

three-fingers said:


> The manufacturers do not say exactly how it works


This is standard policy for any patented product



> It's meant to "sterilise" or "kill" algae   <snip>   but there is no magic device or chemical that can do this in aquariums without also harming beneficial microorganisms.


I'd guess that UV sterilizers would also fall into this category  



> After years being on sale, this device still hasn't demonstrated such an ability - there is no evidence at all - only subjective user anecdotes of minimal perceived positive effects, and lots of healthy skepticism/direct criticism from many experts.


Both parts of this statement are equally subjective 



three-fingers said:


> In absence of a manufacturers explanation, we have deduced that it is probably creating oxygen microbubbles + ozone -and if this is the case, then it is both harmful to algae and beneficial microorganisms.


Again subjective, & completely lacking in any supporting evidence ... if Twinstar were a litigious sort of company, they's have lots of _grist for the mill_  

Unlikely event?
Robert H does a good summary here of Novak's litigious behaviour here



> Well you were never really his target in the first place. Actwin and Benn is who he really wanted. Everyone else was just fodder. I just remembered it differently.. like he claimed he served you but you disputed it, he left the summons with a relative of yours, or a friend, or something. I don't know, I don't remember. It was like five years ago right?
> 
> Its all old news now any way. Nobody cares about it any more. Its been seven years since it started.You were the only one out of all the people who came out of it untouched. Everyone else was affected by it in some way, some more severe than others. It pretty much killed the APD list and it had a profound affect on the internet aquarium community. The Usernet is completely out of the picture, and there is not any thriving un moderated aquarium forum in existence any more. Most of the defendants aren't even involved in the hobby today, at least publically.



There were APD list folk that I rather liked that ended up in bankruptcy & losing their homes during this bizarre lawsuit


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## AverageWhiteBloke

I guess what would put this thing to bed would be to see some data that benefitted both manufacturer and consumer in the same way we look at ferts and co2. 

EI was proven to be at a level that the plants cannot consume any more regardless of lighting whilst salts were not at toxic levels to the fish. 
Co2 is recommended at 30ppm which is beneficial to Plants while not stressing the fish. 

In the same way so as to negate placebo effect, better original Plants or external source of lighting or tank differences it would be best using a single tank and be able to fill in the following blanks...

Based on the assumptions that a small amount of Ozone and killing of algae spores/ bacteria both beneficial and not so is of benefit in the column and increased oxygen levels makes the filter more productive. The data would have to look something like...

Test tank which was shown to contain "x" amount of bacteria count and "y" amount of algae spores per (method of measurement) after dosing with Twinstar for (measure of time) showed that "x" and "y" reduced by (whatever) and at no time did the levels of o3 or o2 reach values known to be toxic to fauna being "a" ppm of o2 and "b" ppm of o3. 

Fill those blanks in and that could end it. Maybe getting those parameters is an expensive situation if done by a certified body of some kind and the reason there is no data from back this up due to financial constraints. In the case of Twinstar they have had to R and D and organise the tooling whereas Chihiros have just copied the engineering which would explain firstly the price difference and because existing technology has been used but maybe implemented better no patents have been infringed or created hence no litigation had ensued.


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## three-fingers

alto said:


> This is standard policy for any patented product


This has already been stated, however that doesn't make it a good policy.

I believe it stifles both individual hobbyists learning and the development of science related to the hobby and lowers trust in their product. You are allowed to have a different opinion, I'm personally more interested in discussing the science of how the Twinstar works (or doesn't) than the reasons why the manufacturer won't tell us, I'll leave that speculation to others .



> I'd guess that UV sterilizers would also fall into this category


Not at all, UV sterilisers aren't magic to people who know how they work. Totally different from Twinstar as they claim to do totally different things, in different ways.

At the right flowrate UV units kill greenwater, along with *both* beneficial and pathogenic bacteria_ only in the UV chamber, _you don't irradiate the whole tank with a short burst of UVC to somehow kill the baddies while leaving the goodies unharmed.

The Twinstar floods the whole water column for short space of time with something that is claimed to kill algae and pathogenic bacteria depending on the "controller" unit the electrolysis disc is attached. Twinstar make no claims it doesn't harm beneficial bacteria on the tanks surfaces, animals bodies and anything else the O3 comes into contact with, so with my understanding of physics and biology I can only presume that it does harm these beneficial bacteria and potentially the sensitive parts of fish/shrimp.

I think this harm is very minimal, possibly negligible, but only because the "positive" anti-algae effects are minimal too. Have you seen the picture in this thread of the disc covered in algae?  

I'd rather have a nearly negligible amount of extra algae in my tank than subject my animals to this unknown quantity, then there's the cost of the unit + replacement parts and the space it takes up in the tank...and time cleaning it when it gets covered in algae.



> Both parts of this statement are equally subjective


Not sure what point you are trying to make here - there is only subjective evidence available on this devices abilities in aquariums at the moment, I think that fact says a lot after so many years of the product being available. Burden of proof is on Twinstar or it's users to provide objective evidence that it works as advertised, not the other way around. Regardless, I just post my opinions and try to explain them thoroughly.  I would never try to imply my opinions are free from subjectivity...lets leave the philosophy for another thread now though.



> Again subjective, & completely lacking in any supporting evidence ... if Twinstar were a litigious sort of company, they's have lots of _grist for the mill_


Again...not sure what point you are making? Did I imply anywhere that Twinstar were a litigious company?  I don't think they are, they may be, but I don't care either way. I think they are a company with great marketing and a crap product, I have have no further opinion on their business practices at this time.



> Unlikely event?
> Robert H does a good summary here of Novak's litigious behaviour here


OK, I'm still not sure how this is relevant to anything quoted in my post. I did read that thread, but I still don't know why. Maybe your trying to imply I should be scared of Twinstar because of my opinion of their product? 



> There were APD list folk that I rather liked that ended up in bankruptcy & losing their homes during this bizarre lawsuit


I am sorry for your loss.


----------



## rebel

Haha I agree on the burden of proof statement. It's actually a common issue when discussing matters with pseudo scientists so it's important understanding that concept. 

Sorry OT, back to the twinstar and Tatooine.


----------



## Ricardo Romão

@three-fingers

Please let me ask you, did you ever user twinstar? I mean the real, not the fake.

Of course it can get algae, so because of it, it means that twinstar does not work? If you have the same car accident in a porsche or in a fiat, of course, you can die in both, but where do you think you will have a higher probability to die? If you die in the porsche it means that the security in both cars are the same? 

Algae depends on many factors. If you have 100mg/l of NO3 and 0mg/l of PO4, you expect no algae?

Twinstar is very effective to inhibit green algae. It is easy to test. Just put one in your aquarium and you will see you will have to clean the glasses much less. Easy, very easy test.

Of course again twinstar will not explain exactly how it works, step by step, only why it works. Chinese already try to copy without it. Would you explain it? To allow others to copy your technology? When you go buy a car, do you ask more about specifications in turbo or something else? Manufacturers will not show you, only horse power, cc, emissions and so on...

Please see the pictures bellow and look how clean, crystal clear and how collorful they look like. The second one is one a shop, here you can see the video (with twintar light and twinstar sterilizer), this way you can see it is not photoshop:


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## Ricardo Romão

150 days the first and the second less than 2 months I think


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## Ricardo Romão

150 days the first and the second less than 2 months I think


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## three-fingers

Ricardo Romão said:


> @three-fingers
> Please let me ask you, did you ever user twinstar? I mean the real, not the fake.


Why do you even need to ask this when I have stated multiple times I would not use this device on my tanks even if I was paid to do so? Have you fully read my posts?


> Of course it can get algae, so because of it, it means that twinstar does not work?


Um...no? I have never once stated this.  I have stated multiple times that any possible anti-algae effect from the ozone produced by the unit is minimal, not that the effects are non-existent. The pictures of the electrolysis disc confirm this, in my opinion anyway. You can disagree, but I don't know why you would after seeing that picture and reading this thread.  Unless you think this unit works some other way than killing algae with ozone?  Given the laws of physics and the objective evidence available, I think that is incredibly unlikely...dare I say impossible.

So which is it? Do you think it works in some other way, and if so, in what way?  Or do you agree that it kills algae using ozone emitted from the disc, in which case, *how can you maintain that it is effective at this when the disc itself gets covered in algae?* :S The disc would be the area of highest ozone concentration, so the algae killing effect should be most evident here.  The fact that algae thrives on the disc leads me to believe that the algae killing effect must be minimal, this would explain why the devices don't produce any noticeable negative effect from killing beneficial microbes, or visibly harm fish either.

In addition, can you explain how it could possibly harm algae without harming beneficial microorganisms?  Because if you actually read my posts, you will see that I have stated many times that I think it may have a minimal negative effect on algae



> If you have the same car accident in a porsche or in a fiat, of course, you can die in both, but where do you think you will have a higher probability to die? If you die in the porsche it means that the security in both cars are the same?


I don't see how this is question relates to anything I have posted. I get that you are trying to make an analogy, I just don't see why an analogy is required for whatever point you are tying to make, and I think it is a bad analogy too.



> Algae depends on many factors. If you have 100mg/l of NO3 and 0mg/l of PO4, you expect no algae?


Yes, algae depends on many factors, this has already been agreed on multiple times by everyone in the thread.  Nobody disagrees. Again I don't understand what point you are tying to make with this fact.



> Twinstar is very effective to inhibit green algae. It is easy to test. Just put one in your aquarium and you will see you will have to clean the glasses much less. Easy, very easy test.


Not easy to test at all. Even to just get *useless subjective results* you must spend a minimum of £100 (multiply this to test multiple units on multiple set-ups) and already have multiple mature aquariums running.  Generally the more established a tank becomes it requires less cleaning anyway, so the pattern you have described would happen with all planted tanks without Twinstars too.



> Of course again twinstar will not explain exactly how it works, step by step, only why it works


As far as I can see, the only explanations as to "why it works" that Twinstar provide are essentially  "because we say so", "because it is expensive" and  "because some people with beautiful fish tanks have them".



> Chinese already try to copy without it. Would you explain it? To allow others to copy your technology? When you go buy a car, do you ask more about specifications in turbo or something else? Manufacturers will not show you, only horse power, cc, emissions and so on...


Would I explain how my hypothetical ground-breaking product worked? Yes.  Would I allow others to copy the technology? Maybe, depends how much bother it would be stopping them.

Comparing the marketing of this device to the marketing of cars does not further the discussion on how this device works.  I have already stated above:

"I'm personally more interested in discussing the science of how the Twinstar works (or doesn't) than the reasons why the manufacturer won't tell us, I'll leave that speculation to others."

So please don't ask me again about something I have specifically stated I am not interested in, and is irrelevant to the discussion of _how_ the Twinstar works (or doesn't).



> Please see the pictures bellow and look how clean, crystal clear and how collorful they look like. The second one is one a shop, here you can see the video (with twintar light and twinstar sterilizer), this way you can see it is not photoshop:



Yay, more irrelevant pictures of tanks with Twinstars in them . I don't need a video to believe it isn't photoshop, I have seen plenty of beautiful planted tanks similar to these but without Twinstars.

This thread often seems like marketing more than discussion to be honest...lots of shop pictures of nice tanks from vendors of Twinstars. Showing pictures of nice tanks with Twinstars in them isn't remotely useful evidence.

As mentioned many times, such pictures with accompanying anecdotes are poor evidence because they are* subjective*, and are obviously going to feature some bias. If I had already spent over £100 on something, I would _want _to believe it works too.

As stated above:

"Burden of proof is on Twinstar or it's users to provide objective evidence that it works as advertised, not the other way around."

Absolutely lovely tank (other than the ugly white disc ). You should attribute this success to skill or experience, not some expensive gadget when you don't even know how/if it works.

I have an open mind, and as soon as there is any objective evidence that the Twinstar provides positive benefits for a planted tank without harming the animals or beneficial microbes, I will change my opinion on the product.

After 4 years with not a single piece of objective evidence, I'm not holding my breath.  Lot's of crazy and ineffective aquarium devices/fads have come and gone in the past, some are still around.  Just the fact that they exist and sell units doesn't say anything about their effectiveness.


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## AverageWhiteBloke

Crazy thread I'm following with interest. So many experienced scapers saying they are visually seeing benefits. I'm pretty sure this can't be placebo and I don't doubt their integrity in any way. A lot of these people have moved from Aquascaping being a hobby to being a living so their reputation is everything. 
If the effects are minimal could it be that the minimal effect is the difference between a good tank and a great tank. It's a strange situation when people who usually can explain every bit of chemical/biological process in the aquarium in great detail just say they don't know what it's doing but it's doing something. 
I was even having a quick look on instagram before and came across an ADA tank which appears to have a Twinstar in. The saga continues.


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





three-fingers said:


> I have an open mind, and as soon as there is any objective evidence that the Twinstar provides positive benefits for a planted tank without harming the animals or beneficial microbes, I will change my opinion on the product.


That would be pretty much where I am as well.

I think there is scientific evidence that Sharps <"patented nano-bubble generator">  has <"anti-microbial activity">, but I think you are struggling after that, and I don't actually see that that is necessarily an advantage either. 





AverageWhiteBloke said:


> So many experienced scapers saying they are visually seeing benefits. I'm pretty sure this can't be placebo and I don't doubt their integrity in any way.


It could definitely stop, some forms of, biofilm settling on the glass etc.

cheers Darrel


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## AverageWhiteBloke

Very interesting read, I have to be honest I generally don't get further than the first two paragraphs when it comes to these things, I generally just revert back to my 30 year tried and tested method of SPD (Solution to Pollution is Dilution)  However in this instance I managed to read right through. Cross referencing with previous comments and the data I have to say that it looks highly likely that the micro bubbles theory is what is being used here whether the manufacturer wants to admit that or not. There does appear to be a small amount of animosity towards the manufacturer which is understandable I guess if they are not going to explain in full how their product works. They should know not to bring snake oil into a forum like this without backing that up especially with the amount of scientific knowledge that resides here.  I also appreciate that they want to protect their product. The Twinstar has already been copied to some extent, the patent for the theory of a cleaning action by micro bubbles is already out there which only leaves the effectiveness of the process being increased by the duration,intensity and timing of the bursts or the "algorithms" as the manufacturer is claiming. Unfortunately this is something that can also be reverse engineered and copied quite easily. In China I have seen a BMW X5 pretty much copied exactly then called something different so I'm guessing this isn't going to be a problem. It's what they do really well and then manufacture it at a much lower cost and more often than not avoid import tax. Unfortunately that's how global markets work.. but that's another story 

So, essentially it looks like the technology does have some kind of cleaning effect IF the presence of these Micro Bubbles does exist at the right size. The ref in Darrels link does refer to the cleaning of plants and surfaces as well as a few other pros but without the use of harsh chemicals especially with the likes of fruit which I suppose is a benefit if it's for human consumption. It doesn't sound dissimilar to the use of LC but without the benefit of elevated carbon levels the plants can utilise plus the benefits of not having to use dangerous chemicals. I suppose it just uses an electric charge and what already exists in the aquarium. It doesn't however remove the other various nasties that exist or build up of salts which can only be removed by a good WC regime and as for soft algae on surfaces, well I have a team of Ottos to deal with that which are very effective and a pleasure to watch  It looks like someone has came across this technology and thought that it could be implemented in a planted aquarium with some benefits. I guess Twinstar doesn't want to expose the exact means because they feel their model does it better. 

If carried out properly the use of micro bubbles does appear to have marginal benefits, mild sterilising effect,raised o2 levels increasing filter biological process's and reduction of water column algae spores consuming nutrients which can be replicated or in fact improved by a WC which is much cheaper. As such it looks like quite a good sticking plaster for people who don't have enough time on their hands but it isn't that answer to the main problem. More of a cure to some of the symptoms of bad tank keeping husbandry. That's why I bought one, leading up to the Xmas hols I was up to my neck in it work wise and stuff at home and I missed out on my usual routine. I can't comment on whether or not my situation has improved with its use as ironically being off work at Xmas meant I could spend more time on my tank so a filter and couple of large WC's have achieved that anyway. I can see its possible uses in newly setup tanks though where green surface algae, surface scum and brown diatoms seem to peak before moving on to some of the more PITA algae varieties. I know George Farmer seemed to get this impression with his new 600 aquascaper set up. 

Would be interesting to get back into my usual weekly routine and then try a period with and a period without to see if any noticeable difference could be observed. This thing can be knocked off so might be a good temp remedy in times of problems rather than a long term solution. I guess anyway.


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## dw1305

Hi all,





AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Unfortunately this is something that can also be reverse engineered and copied quite easily. ...... It's what they do really well and then manufacture it at a much lower cost.


They could use a much cheaper metal for the mesh, rather than platinum (Pt) coated titanium (Ti) (I assume that the Twinstar has this).

There is a discussion in <"Twinstar DIY">.

cheers Darrel


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## AverageWhiteBloke

Hmm, considering that there appears to be no black arts being used here the Chiros Doctor one is priced well enough without DIY'ng. Something just has a bad feel about it when we have people here trying to mix water with electric 
I bought from the "UK Warehouse" for around £50 although I have seen it on ebay same thing from China for around a tenner less. I was hoping it would be delivered faster and any UK tax paid so my conscience was clear, we need all the help we can get. Oh ok then, the faster delivery time was the main USP for me. I pay enough tax as it is  As it happens it still came 2 weeks later with a Chinese postal stamp on it! Once you have all the bits you then would have to replicate the timing it was on and duration. I like a DIY don't get me wrong, more to do with making stuff myself than cost but I think in this instance the hassle would far out weigh the cost and to be honest you're going to end up with something that looks plain ugly and possibly dangerous if not done correctly. 
There's folk in that thread wiring up laptop battery chargers to steel mesh and then putting it underwater. What could possibly go wrong.  I just hope they're knocking these things off while their hands are in the tank.


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## Robert H. Tavera

what twinstar does is quite simple It generates oxigen peroxide that is harmful for algae, green algae absorbs oxigen peroxide and dies. having a twinstar is like adding oxigen peroxide to your tank in a regular basis, lots of people add oxigen peroxide to kill green algae. 

Its like amano´s history of co2, insted of adding carbonated water to the tanks, he started diffusing co2 from a tank. Here insted of keep adding h2o2 we generate it constantly.

i own a twinstar nano and i use it in my new setups just or one or two months, once the tank has mature it goes out... and yes it works, it makes the aquarium set um much easier, but its not an esential gadget.

harmful for fish..... i think its a little harmful, it cant just be perfect. but a little h2o2 for a short period of time can perfectly been tolerated by fish. in my personal opinion it shoudn´t be used for long periods of time.


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## Tomhog

Looks like electrolysis creating oxygen and hydrogen, but there are other compounds in our water. Who know what else get broken up with electrolysis. Are we certain it is safe having this type of process happening inside our house?


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## AverageWhiteBloke

Robert H. Tavera said:


> what twinstar does is quite simple It generates oxigen peroxide that is harmful for algae, green algae absorbs oxigen peroxide and dies. having a twinstar is like adding oxigen peroxide to your tank in a regular basis, lots of people add oxigen peroxide to kill green algae.
> 
> Its like amano´s history of co2, insted of adding carbonated water to the tanks, he started diffusing co2 from a tank. Here insted of keep adding h2o2 we generate it constantly.
> 
> i own a twinstar nano and i use it in my new setups just or one or two months, once the tank has mature it goes out... and yes it works, it makes the aquarium set um much easier, but its not an esential gadget.
> 
> harmful for fish..... i think its a little harmful, it cant just be perfect. but a little h2o2 for a short period of time can perfectly been tolerated by fish. in my personal opinion it shoudn´t be used for long periods of time.



Yeah I think that's pretty much where I am with it right now. Going to do another 50% WC today before I start back work on Monday which is the third in a week which should get me back on track for the missed ones. Hopefully I can keep on top of my routine again. Going to knock off the Doctor for a while but leave it in the tank. I see it being a handy device that I'll use when setting up a new tanks, times when I've had to miss WC's and when adding new live stock. Looking at my tank lately is does appear to be very clean other than the usual algae I've been battling with on some plant leaves which the Doctor doesn't claim to tackle anyway. Not sure if this is down to the Doctor or the Ottos, I just know I haven't had to clean any glass for a long time. The ottos have even stripped it down to gravel level. They have full bellies for now and a couple have just discovered algae wafers but I don't think it will do any harm to have a bit of soft green algae about for them.


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## Jack Reilly

I've had the chihiros doctor for many months now and I'm convinced it does nothing to combat algae. I have all types of algae growing. There's been no difference in algae growth. 

It could be Placebo but the water appears very clear with the good doctor running. That appears to be the only benefit. Can't speak to the twinstar though.


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## AverageWhiteBloke

Jack Reilly said:


> I've had the chihiros doctor for many months now and I'm convinced it does nothing to combat algae. I have all types of algae growing. There's been no difference in algae growth.



I guess that depends on what algae you're talking about. As fas I am aware it destroys algae spores on a cellular level in the water column preventing things like green water and stopping these spores feeding off nutrients leaving more for the plants to feed off. It doesn't claim to do anything about algae attached to hardscape, you are going to need to remove those manually or attack with LC or hydrogen peroxide. 

As far as I can tell, going off some serious scapers who I've seen using these they appear to be beneficial when first starting up a tank at killing the lighter algaes, diatoms that sort of thing, the ones you generally get before a tank is fully matured.

As for the clearer water, I know what you mean, possibly the higher oxygen levels it creates? I have noticed clearer water but put purigen in my canister about 6 weeks ago so I can't say either way.


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## Daveslaney

Never used one personally.
But judging by the comments on peoples experiances.Comments on how it works.I think it prob does raise the ORP poss reduce DOCsAlgae spores in the water collumn.Much the same as H2O2 or Ozone would.
I can see the advantage of this on new set ups.On a established tank with good maintenance i think you will see little or no difference.
Thats just my thoughts,Where im at with this at the min.
If i was setting a new tank up would i get one? Yes.


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## AverageWhiteBloke

I also find the possible raised O2 levels a potential benefit. My tank is quite heavily stocked and surface agitation low. Saves on co2 which there is still some left in the morning keeping the DC green throughout the day to deal with a bit of sunlight on the tank. I could aerate through the night but that means a noisy pump running and de-gassing of co2 so when my tanks had recently cleaned filter I tend to just switch it on before I go to bed for a bit of extra o2 and the slight cleansing a bit of a bonus. If that's what it is doing which seems to be the general census of opinion.

When I'm busy at work and a good clean out is over due I will leave it on 24/7 to maybe give the filter a boost. Plus it's there if I ever want to set up a new tank to hopefully aid in the tank maturing and the initial stage algae.


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## Jack Reilly

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> I guess that depends on what algae you're talking about. As fas I am aware it destroys algae spores on a cellular level in the water column preventing things like green water and stopping these spores feeding off nutrients leaving more for the plants to feed off. It doesn't claim to do anything about algae attached to hardscape, you are going to need to remove those manually or attack with LC or hydrogen peroxide.


Perhaps that's why I'm not impressed. I've never had an issue with green water. I have bba (which I already knew it did nothing about ) , hair algae and green spot algae. It doesn't seem to have any affect on these. I remove all signs of these during maintenance and they come right back.

I also do EI dosing so nutrients aren't in short supply. Perhaps good for a new tank, don't know if that makes it worth the price of admission. Also it's pretty ugly in a nano.


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## Baqi Bullah

@Ricardo Romão

Thank you for your recent posts. One question between real and fake
can you tell the difference between real & fake twinstar device see on planted tank while it is ruining.


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## AverageWhiteBloke

Essentially no, although there is still much debate about what these things are doing and the benefits they both appear to be doing the same thing. 
Very fine mist of small bubbles and some larger, supposedly pure oxygen bubbles. 
So other than the Twinstar being about £100 more expensive they appear to be doing the same thing. Twinstar claim to use an "algorithm" special designed I would imagine so that the algae and bacteria cells don't have chance to multiply while avoiding over dosing but without having one of each running side by side it's hard to say whether the chihros one has copied the interval time between bursts, duration of bursts and intensity.


----------



## Baqi Bullah

Truly but i am still waiting for expert @Ricardo Romão  comments.


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## Tim Harrison

Not sure if this has been brought up before, but where do you get your replacement reactors for the Nano II?


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## Ricardo Romão

Baqi Bullah said:


> @Ricardo Romão
> 
> Thank you for your recent posts. One question between real and fake
> can you tell the difference between real & fake twinstar device see on planted tank while it is ruining.



I'm sorry for my late reply. We have been very busy with the new models 

Sure, despite the quality on materials, the program which controls the Twinstar is completely different. If not controlled properly, electrolysis can be harmful for both fish and plants.


----------



## Ricardo Romão

Tim Harrison said:


> Not sure if this has been brought up before, but where do you get your replacement reactors for the Nano II?



May I ask where are you from? Maybe I can help you on this matter.


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## Tim Harrison

Hi Ricardo, I currently live in Leicester UK.


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## AverageWhiteBloke

I know this thread has been done to death and I think at this point we pretty much have a good idea of what's going on and the benefits but I though I'd <drop this link> I stumbled across it on youtube when I was looking for something else about air pumps. Looks like these have been in use in horticulture for some time so not sure why they came out as a bit of dark art shrouded in secrecy not that long ago. Some decent explanations although the test data appears only to be relevant to terrestial plant growing by enriching the water with o2 that they feed to plants but I suppose there is some level of crossover.


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## Tim Harrison

Nice find, copied from your link...
So, that confirms where we got to with trying to figure out what the TwinStar is exactly. It's an electrolysis device that decomposes H2O in to the gases H and O2.
Therefore, great for generating O2 and oxygenating our aquariums, but perhaps not killing algae.
Although, Mr Emitter says it will keep plants healthy and increase yields significantly. So algae inhibition is perhaps more likely a byproduct of healthier plants.


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## AverageWhiteBloke

That video was from 2015 and they say its "patented technology" not sure if they own the patent, if I remember right without digging back through it all Twinstar also said it was patented technology although someone posted showing the technology was patented waaayyy further back than that for the purpose of sterilising water. I can only guess that it's the "logarithm" of the bursts that Twinstar had/is patenting. Probably why the likes of Chiros can bring out the same thing at a fraction of the price without infringing any patents. Essentially it's all the same hardware with just the burst and duration that people or companies are claiming to be unique to their particular model.


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## AverageWhiteBloke

Increasing oxygen levels, a little dose of hydrogen to kill cellular algae in the column and the possibility of increasing co2 by increasing o2>filter production>more co2 and these guys claiming it increases root development and plant yields (In terrestrial plants anyway)I suppose the claims they are beneficial to a planted tank do have some weight.

Also tip for cleaning is to soak in muriatic acid, whatever that is.


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## Chubbs

I have one and have seen no benefit. But it’s a nice gadget.


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## AverageWhiteBloke

Chubbs said:


> I have one and have seen no benefit. But it’s a nice gadget.


I think that's where the dark art bit comes from mate. If you run a tight ship I don't think you'll see any benefit other than the fact you will have a lot higher oxygen in your tank....which you can't see.



Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


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## Chubbs

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> I think that's where the dark art bit comes from mate. If you run a tight ship I don't think you'll see any benefit other than the fact you will have a lot higher oxygen in your tank....which you can't see.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


If that were the case i’d Expect to see pearling more evident as Tank would be saturated. I wouldn’t recommend paying full price for one, but it is a nice gadget and the ‘smoke’ it creates is pretty cool. But all of the product claims, don’t apear to be true at all.


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## AverageWhiteBloke

Chubbs said:


> If that were the case i’d Expect to see pearling more evident as Tank would be saturated. I wouldn’t recommend paying full price for one, but it is a nice gadget and the ‘smoke’ it creates is pretty cool. But all of the product claims, don’t apear to be true at all.


You would have to ask someone more knowledgeable than me about pearling mate. I get the principal but I think there's a lot of other factors to take into account, I would imagine whether or not the the plants themselves are actually creating enough oxygen to pearl regardless of the o2 content in the water would be one. Atmospheric pressure, amount of live stock, water temp how dirty the water is, how dirty the filter is.... All these things are oxygen consumers in vast amounts so even with good o2 plant produced and the Twinstar it may still not be enough to produce pearling. I would hazard a guess anyway.

Regarding the claims, when I read through them (the ones in pigeon English anyway) and I cross ref them against what I understand about o2 and it's effects in the aquarium I would say you could cover all them claims by increased oxygen. Oxygen is very underrated in the hobby because we are all fixated on co2. 
Helping the biological process, Check. Better for fish health, Check. Clearer water, check. Go longer without a water change, yeah, increased plant growth. All these things will be improved with higher dissolved o2. That's what this thing seems to do and that's what the end result would be, I have no problem with that.

As for killing algae spores, the hydrogen will do that also. Whether it's powerful enough to destroy  fish diseases in the column looking for hosts I'm not qualified to say.

All in all, I think it does more good than bad. The mist looks cool and is a great way of seeing how your flow is going round the tank too however the actual device itself is an eye sore to me. I hate it when your tank starts looking like an intensive care unit.

I wouldn't pay the Twinstar prices for one either, handy gadget with benefits but nowhere near essential and nothing that can't be re-created with good tank husbandry.  

Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


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## Chubbs

Yes, as mentioned it’s a cool gadget and is better looking than an air stone, but for the price you could buy lots of air stones


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## Trevor Pleco

Worked for me, but is a short lived product with the hassle of having to replace the diffuser too often, even when looking after it meticulously.

Not sure why the gadget and wires are bright white which itself is a magnet for algae and go green first ?


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## AverageWhiteBloke

Chubbs said:


> Yes, as mentioned it’s a cool gadget and is better looking than an air stone, but for the price you could buy lots of air stones



Very true but I don't think an airstone comes close when it comes to dissolving o2. Fair enough the breaking of the water surface will help but I would imagine very little has time to diffuse on its short journey and large bubbles plus you have the downside of noise with a pump running and crap like air fresheners etc being sucked in and pumped into the tank. When I watch mine the mist actually disappears in so far as it never makes its way to the surface it just vanishes which leads me to believe that it has fully dissolved as pure o2 back into the water column increasing the overall o2 content.



Trevor Pleco said:


> Worked for me, but is a short lived product with the hassle of having to replace the diffuser too often, even when looking after it meticulously.



Really? how long are we talking here? I've had mine over twelve months and so far only ever wiped the plastic.


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## Tim Harrison

Chubbs said:


> Yes, as mentioned it’s a cool gadget and is better looking than an air stone, but for the price you could buy lots of air stones


I think it's worth the money, and there are cheaper versions out there now which are probably just as effective.



Trevor Pleco said:


> Not sure why the gadget and wires are bright white which itself is a magnet for algae and go green first ?


I guess white fits in with the whole Apple aesthetic, they're obviously trying to emulate. 



Trevor Pleco said:


> Worked for me, but is a short lived product with the hassle of having to replace the diffuser too often, even when looking after it meticulously.


My reactor (the mesh bit) lasted about a year before it finally gave up. I've since replaced it with Chihiros reactor, plugged in to the TwinStar control unit, which works well and is a quarter of the price. Not sure how long it will last though.


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## AverageWhiteBloke

Tim Harrison said:


> My reactor (the mesh bit) lasted about a year before it finally gave up. I've since replaced it with Chihiros reactor,



Right, I never had the Twinstar so if @Trevor Pleco was referring to that one I have no experience of it. I've just had the Chihiros one from the start. Still going strong though. I guess you're pretty stuck colour wise in a aquarium, green, white or black is probably the only options for not standing out like a sore thumb. I suppose clear maybe an option just for the diffuser but then there's a mish mash with the actual unit where you don't want to see the inner workings and the cable has to be some colour. I suppose green would be the less obtrusive colour in a a planted tank but like you say the white has an iphone tech feel to it probably for marketing purposes.


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## Trevor Pleco

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Very true but I don't think an airstone comes close when it comes to dissolving o2. Fair enough the breaking of the water surface will help but I would imagine very little has time to diffuse on its short journey and large bubbles plus you have the downside of noise with a pump running and crap like air fresheners etc being sucked in and pumped into the tank. When I watch mine the mist actually disappears in so far as it never makes its way to the surface it just vanishes which leads me to believe that it has fully dissolved as pure o2 back into the water column increasing the overall o2 content.
> 
> 
> Really? how long are we talking here? I've had mine over twelve months and so far only ever wiped the plastic.



I had four of them in a 780l tank, as I say I was happy with the performance and they created an impressive bubbly high tech show, not that I was after this, lol. Some diffusers lasted just over a year others 18 months if I was lucky. I replaced all the diffusers once, but after that lost patience and spares were difficult to come by In Africa so had to order from abroad so not cheap..

Black or dark green would have looked much beter in a scaped tank instead of ghastly bright white wires all over the place...


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## Tim Harrison

Trevor Pleco said:


> spares were difficult to come by In Africa so had to order from abroad so not cheap..


Yes that is a problem, odd that the business isn't geared up to providing easy access to relatively cheap replacement parts.
Chihiros won't be complaining though, they've slipped in and filled the gaps neglected by TwinStar.


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## AverageWhiteBloke

I hope the diffusers are interchangeable, I guess they are Tim if you got a chihiros one to go on your twinstar. Was looking on their site before and noticed they have brought out a newer version of the Doctor and couldn't see any diffusers for their old version sold separately. Essentially they are just passing a current between the plates so can't see any reason why one wouldn't work with the other.


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## Tim Harrison

They sure are. I'm now using a 3rd generation Chihiros reactor (diffuser) with a TwinStar Nano 2 control unit.


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## AverageWhiteBloke

Cool, nice one


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## tmiravent

You can switch between TS nd Chihiro mesh with no problem. Last generation plates are more stable and last longer!
I, ve used the reactor inline, it works but was one more stage to pipe work...
Now i'm using inside a liberty filter, that i use as garbage colector ( with surface skimmer).
Inside of eheim filter is out of view, stays clean for... never cleaned).
I realy enjoy having less gear inside the tank, easy to clean and better for my view!
cheers


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## Tim Harrison

Sounds interesting, how do you use it inline or in a filter, can you post pics or a simple diagram?


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## Zeus.

Tim Harrison said:


> They sure are. I'm now using a 3rd generation Chihiros reactor



Tim where did you get your Chihiros reactor from? My TwinStar reactor is over a year old and is not working as good. I did pick up a  Chihiros Doctor II (No Clean) Algae Inhibitor Steriliser from hinterfeld in clearance sales but the reactor only lasted about 3months, was great whilst it worked


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## Tim Harrison

Hi Zeus, I got it from here https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Chihiros...var=591218295127&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


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## Zeus.

Cheers Tim - ordered two


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## tmiravent

Tim Harrison said:


> Sounds interesting, how do you use it inline or in a filter, can you post pics or a simple diagram?


Yes, no problem!
Sorry for the bad phone quality pic's.
This is how i'm using now, simpla as that!





This was the previous version:






I used a sand filter. You can drill an extra hole for the cable, or use a T in the one of the holes.
Cheers


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## Tim Harrison

Okay, thanks


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## Ricardo Romão

Tim Harrison said:


> Yes that is a problem, odd that the business isn't geared up to providing easy access to relatively cheap replacement parts.
> Chihiros won't be complaining though, they've slipped in and filled the gaps neglected by TwinStar.



There is a reason why Twinstar reactors cost more. The reactor from the copy brand uses low quality materials on the mesh, so they are dark not silver as Twinstar.  The materials used on the Twinstar's mesh are safe.

Do not use Twinstar in the filter.


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## Ricardo Romão

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Increasing oxygen levels, a little dose of hydrogen to kill cellular algae in the column and the possibility of increasing co2 by increasing o2>filter production>more co2 and these guys claiming it increases root development and plant yields (In terrestrial plants anyway)I suppose the claims they are beneficial to a planted tank do have some weight.
> 
> Also tip for cleaning is to soak in muriatic acid, whatever that is.



FYI

Twinstar inhibits green algae due to free radicals not o2 or Hydrogen. There is no way to measure it, it's gone before you try.

Like taking some water to the shop to measure co2


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## AverageWhiteBloke

Can you elaborate what you mean by the mesh on the Twinstar being "safe"? 

Interesting to know about the free radicals I'm not going to pretend I'm at that level of science. I like to try but more of a plant grower. understanding the plants needs rather than how it breaks down atomically. I know they need nitrogen because they feed off it and know when they haven't got enough but as for why that element in particular, that's above my pay grade 
I was more interested in the o2 side of things and how the unit is far more effective at raising oxygen levels and cleaner than an air stone. I just assumed the hydrogen would be responsible for the reaction that destroyed algae cells as I'm aware people use hydrogen peroxide for killing algae in much the same way as UV sterilisers or ozone reactors create an unstable element. 

Having said that I also had a little read up on hydroxyl radical HO. Which can be created using an electrical discharge but to be fair that research was just from the university of Google and could be totally unrelated. 

Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


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## dw1305

Hi all,





Ricardo Romão said:


> There is a reason why Twinstar reactors cost more.





Ricardo Romão said:


> Twinstar inhibits green algae due to free radicals not o2 or Hydrogen.


It is earlier <"in this thread">.  If it does work the important bit is the nano bubble generation and the nature of the anode/cathode.

This is from: Patent US6689262 <Patent US6689262 - Microbubbles of oxygen - Google Patent> 





dw1305 said:


> .....An oxygen emitter which is an electrolytic cell is disclosed. When the anode and cathode are separated by a critical distance, very small microbubbles and nanobubbles of oxygen are generated. The hydrogen forms bubbles at the cathode, which bubbles rise to the surface. The very small oxygen bubbles remain in suspension, forming a solution supersaturated in oxygen.....





dw1305 said:


> .........The electrodes may be formed into open grids or may be closed surfaces. The most preferred cathode is a stainless steel mesh. ....... The most preferred anode is platinum and iridium oxide on a support. A preferred support is titanium.


cheers Darrel


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## tmiravent

Here is a better picture of the 'Eheim filter' with my system.
Nothing special, but very efective if you don't like the 'white look' of the gear and you're lazy as me (and like to clean reactor's, from never to never). 





I use Eheim Liberty, changed as a skimmer, to get leaves and floating stuff inside a container. 
Also help's to keep the Co2 levels consistent (below certain point) and can help water surface with some agitation.
All these have to be tuned from layout to layout. (there are other ways to do this, this is just the one that fell's better to me, for now...).

Do not use this stuff in main filter, that could have side effects. I have other biological filter in this layout.
If your goal is to have just one filter, then the inline solution (after the filter) could be better.

To have a clue about the quality of materials (reactor)  in each brand and version, a blind test would be the only way to tell for sure.
The first versions were really bad, and didn't last long. The actual mesh's are much more stable and last longer. 
I have both and i can´t say which one last more or is better...for my 'subjective' use the result is much the same...
I leave that for the hobby people to judge.

I continue to see benefit's in using the technology (branded or DIY), small benefit's but they are there.
Hope it help's,
cheers


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## Kalum

If a lot of you are using chihiros reactors now, does using the twinstar brain make it any better than just buying the chihiros doctor kit instead?


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## AverageWhiteBloke

Kalum said:


> If a lot of you are using chihiros reactors now, does using the twinstar brain make it any better than just buying the chihiros doctor kit instead?


Ain't that the million dollar question. They all appear on face value to be incorporating the same basic technology. What appears to be the differentiator is the quality of the products and the so called "algorithm" of the burst which each manufacturer seems to be claiming does make a difference and is possibly patented although due to a lack of scientific data to back up these claims on the grounds of them not revealing their secrets which could be copied then you have to go with your instinct on this one I guess.

Does the Twinstar offer up something that you think is worth 3x the price of cheaper units? I couldn't tell you. In my case I only believe all these things only offer a slightly better environment which could be replicated by changing water more often so was worth a punt at the cheaper prices. Not sure if I'd have paid the TS prices. Unless of course it was the only option, was flush and fancied treating myself. 

Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


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## Kalum

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Ain't that the million dollar question. They all appear on face value to be incorporating the same basic technology. What appears to be the differentiator is the quality of the products and the so called "algorithm" of the burst which each manufacturer seems to be claiming does make a difference and is possibly patented although due to a lack of scientific data to back up these claims on the grounds of them not revealing their secrets which could be copied then you have to go with your instinct on this one I guess.
> 
> Does the Twinstar offer up something that you think is worth 3x the price of cheaper units? I couldn't tell you. In my case I only believe all these things only offer a slightly better environment which could be replicated by changing water more often so was worth a punt at the cheaper prices. Not sure if I'd have paid the TS prices. Unless of course it was the only option, was flush and fancied treating myself.
> 
> Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk



Read through most of this thread and that seems to sum it up pretty well, without proof then the manufacturers can make any claim they want but can't back it up other than saying look at this nice tank.... See it works

Worst case it's a fancy air stone without the need for a noisy air pump, best case it helps keep your tank that bit cleaner

It says its on a timer that reacts to the environent of the tank, how have people found it during co2 periods?


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## AverageWhiteBloke

Does it react to the environment? I thought you just set the burst and duration based on the tank size. Not sure about that one.

It is a bit bizarre that the manufacturers of these items don't try and back it up with some data. All that does is build suspicion IMO. I'm not overly convinced of the algae/disease spore killing properties although based on some data provided earlier in the post to do with a device like this being used for sterilising water and a rough idea of what's going on I wouldn't say it wasn't out of the question.

The video posted earlier does have some university backed studies showing that it increase dissolved 02 in water 50% more than an air stone using less power and not sucking in contaminants from the air is enough to convince me it's better than an air stone. Saying that it doesn't cost much more than a decent air pump, non return valve and stone I think it's worth investing in.

Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


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## Kalum

That's what it says in the marketing blurb, hence me asking, it talks about there being fancy algorithms but if you use default settings for tank size and it always gives off the same duration and intervals then I'm not sure where the intelligent brain comes into it, but maybe I'm looking at it too simplistically...

That's exactly why I'm looking at it, I want something to off gas co2 outside of my lighting period so kill 2 birds so to speak


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## AverageWhiteBloke

From what I understand (which is little). It won't be effective at out gassing co2. An air stone would actually better at that I would say. These things create very little surface agitation.

Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


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## Tim Harrison

For me using the Chihiros reactor with the Twinstar brain was just a matter of cold hard economics.
I'd read on this thread that a couple of folk were doing the same thing, and at a quarter of the price I was willing to take a punt that it'd work.
If it didn't and I'd have to  buy the Chihiros brain as well...well it'd still work out cheaper than a single Twinstar reactor.
From what I can tell, manufacturers claims or not, they both do the same job to a similar standard.


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## AverageWhiteBloke

IMO if Twinstar want to make their product stand out from the rest and prestige price it then they need to put something out there that tells you why. Failing that I can't see any reason either. If I was buying a £100 filter and two were consuming same power with similar turnover and easy maintenance but one was £70 they get my money, that's how market forces work.


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## Kalum

If it oxygenates the water then wouldn't it provide the same benefit with regards to fish even without surface agitation?

If it doesn't affect co2 levels but does provide extra oxygen for the fish then it might be a win win?


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## AverageWhiteBloke

Kalum said:


> If it oxygenates the water then wouldn't it provide the same benefit with regards to fish even without surface agitation?
> 
> If it doesn't affect co2 levels but does provide extra oxygen for the fish then it might be a win win?



Yeah, in a nutshell I think that's exactly what it does. Increases o2 without bubbling off your gas. In fact it could be argued that it increases co2 I would say in so far as increased o2 improves bacterial action then increased co2 production by the bacteria and better performance out of the filter. A discussion I had once where it was said by very knowledgeable people that adding more o2 had the net result of producing more co2 than you would get from liquid carbon products.

Again, this can all be achieved by increasing water changes and better tank maintenance. The more crud there is in the tank the more oxygen is required to strip this out so a cleaner tank will have better o2 in it. The Twinstar or similar products I would say just give you a little hand in this.

If de-gassing your water over night is your game though that would be better achieved by surface agitation by either airstones or raising the outlet of your filter to create surface turbulence. Skimmers are quite good at this also but has the net result of losing co2 if kept running 24/7. Some people just run the skimmer over night if it is a separate pump like the eheim 350, obviously the ones designed to be part of the intake on your pipes run all the time and you may need to turn up co2 a little to accommodate this.

As long as you have a clear water surface free of scum getting co2 out the tanks generally isn't an issue. Getting it to stay in is more the worry. Co2 wants out of your tank as fast as it can. It leaps out of a bottle of pop the second you open it when its cold so imagine trying to get it do dissolve in tropical water.


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## AverageWhiteBloke

If it is creating a reactive gas at the same time using "free radicals" as previously posted and destroying algae spores happy days. More 02, possibility of a better filtration activity, some co2 production and killing algae spores. I see this as a valid product to have in your arsenal in the planted hobby and probably why many people say they see an improvement rather than placebo. If your on top of your game you might not notice anything major but we're all busy people. Sometimes you just don't have the time to carry out maintenance as much as you'd like to so I'll take all the help I can get.


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## Andrew Butler

Trevor Pleco said:


> Black or dark green would have looked much beter in a scaped tank instead of ghastly bright white wires all over the place...


I completely agree with you, it just stands out from everything. I've been thinking about masking things off and taking a can of black spray to the diffuser then some heatshrink to the cable if it stays in long term.


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## Dhfc123

Is the ,real,twinstar worth the money? Or is the chihiros as good. Dont know what to buy, there is a big price diffrents, i read somewhere the twinstar use platinum n the chihiros cheap black mash


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## Tim Harrison

I don't think there is really that much to choose between them. I suspect the Twinstar is probably more expensive mainly because the company has to recoup its R&D costs, not so much because of special coatings etc. 
I also suspect that Chihiros have stood on Twinstar's shoulders and therefore do not have the same costs to recoup.
In terms of practicality I think that Chihiros is probably the better bet, at least in the UK, since replacement parts are easier and cheaper to come by.


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## AverageWhiteBloke

I would agree with that, it's a bit like your gas and electric, at the end of the day it's the same net result out of both devices so it all comes down to how much you want to spend to get that gas. I would compare it to the numerous co2 diffusers out there, you can pay through the nose for one that says ADA on the box or you can stumble across one for a tenth of the money that's actually produces a finer mist.


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## Kalum

Had a Chihiros Doctor 3 in 1 running for about 2 weeks now on a new tank and can't say i've noticed any difference with regards to algae (diatoms still bad). Plant growth is hard to judge until I give the tank time to stabilise and then try it without for a while. One thing that was noticeable was the water clarity, much improved even after a day of use. What that means in the big scheme of things i'm not sure...

Doesn't seem to make a difference with regards to oxygenating the water either as fish are still sensitive to the same levels of CO2 as before and no change in drop checker by the morning with it on or off


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke

Kalum said:


> Had a Chihiros Doctor 3 in 1 running for about 2 weeks now on a new tank and can't say i've noticed any difference with regards to algae (diatoms still bad). Plant growth is hard to judge until I give the tank time to stabilise and then try it without for a while. One thing that was noticeable was the water clarity, much improved even after a day of use. What that means in the big scheme of things i'm not sure...
> 
> Doesn't seem to make a difference with regards to oxygenating the water either as fish are still sensitive to the same levels of CO2 as before and no change in drop checker by the morning with it on or off



Hiya mate, it's just a more effective oxygen generator than a standard airstone without sucking pollution into your tank from your living room. Any increase in oxygen in a tank has huge benefits. As the tank sits it builds up levels of organics from plant and fish waste which algae feed off, to break this down we use the helpful bacteria in the tank which need oxygen to convert the genk into nitrate which the plants feed off. The amount of oxygen required to break it down depends on the amount of genk but the more oxygen there is the more effective the bacteria are or the harder they can work the net result being some co2 is produced as a bi product of the bacterial action and clearer water which you are witnessing. The old skool method of achieving much the same thing is to change the water to remove organics giving the bacteria less work to do and maintaining healthy plants which themselves elevate o2 levels giving the same result as the doctor. Just look at it as a bit of a boost to what you're already trying to achieve rather than an instead of.

It shoudn't make much difference to co2 gassing off levels as unlike an airstone it doesn't create an upwards current as the o2 bubbles are so small it doesn't "drag" water with it however it may increase ph slightly as o2 is a positive H and you are effectively increasing the amount of it. There is also some apparent benefit of the gas it produces ripping apart algae and disease cells that initially come into contact with the "radicals" although this is well above my pay grade  The algae already on the surfaces of plants and stones won't be affected by it but one assumes the spores going past the diffuser as the algae replicates should be. Overall increasing the o2 improves the situation, which this thing does.


----------



## Kalum

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Hiya mate, it's just a more effective oxygen generator than a standard airstone without sucking pollution into your tank from your living room. Any increase in oxygen in a tank has huge benefits. As the tank sits it builds up levels of organics from plant and fish waste which algae feed off, to break this down we use the helpful bacteria in the tank which need oxygen to convert the genk into nitrate which the plants feed off. The amount of oxygen required to break it down depends on the amount of genk but the more oxygen there is the more effective the bacteria are or the harder they can work the net result being some co2 is produced as a bi product of the bacterial action and clearer water which you are witnessing. The old skool method of achieving much the same thing is to change the water to remove organics giving the bacteria less work to do and maintaining healthy plants which themselves elevate o2 levels giving the same result as the doctor. Just look at it as a bit of a boost to what you're already trying to achieve rather than an instead of.
> 
> It shoudn't make much difference to co2 gassing off levels as unlike an airstone it doesn't create an upwards current as the o2 bubbles are so small it doesn't "drag" water with it however it may increase ph slightly as o2 is a positive H and you are effectively increasing the amount of it. There is also some apparent benefit of the gas it produces ripping apart algae and disease cells that initially come into contact with the "radicals" although this is well above my pay grade  The algae already on the surfaces of plants and stones won't be affected by it but one assumes the spores going past the diffuser as the algae replicates should be. Overall increasing the o2 improves the situation, which this thing does.



Yeh that's the thinking behind me trying it out, if it proves to be even a small benefit to the tank in general when used additionally to the normal care given then its worth it, for £45 its not much of a gamble and its quieter than an air pump and stone

One thing I did expect was to be able to run a bit higher CO2 due to the additional oxygen but the fish still seem to have the same threshold 

I've currently got it sitting under the outflow lily pipe but I did notice it said it shouldn't be near a strong current so might be better placed elsewhere, but this way it does circulate round the tank well


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke

Kalum said:


> I've currently got it sitting under the outflow lily pipe but I did notice it said it shouldn't be near a strong current so might be better placed elsewhere, but this way it does circulate round the tank well



I would imagine the longer the bubbles are in suspension in the water the better as they have more time to fully dissolve so swirling around the tank rather than straight up and out would presumably be better the same as co2. I think I remember something like that being said in the blurb but it was nearly in English, I think it meant not having it close to the filter intake got a mention, I assume whatever its bacteria killing properties are it was suggesting the bubbles not getting dragged into the canister.

Not sure about the higher threshold of co2 if more o2 is present. Heard a lot of people say that fish can handle higher co2 if you have more 02 but not sure about the science behind that or how to quantify it. Blood carries oxygen and possibly co2, I would guess the levels would have to be in some kind of equilibrium so it stands to reason that if the fish has plenty of o2 in its blood it could handle more co2, maybe, I don't know.


----------



## Zeus.

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Not sure about the higher threshold of co2 if more o2 is present. Heard a lot of people say that fish can handle higher co2 if you have more 02 but not sure about the science behind that or how to quantify it. Blood carries oxygen and possibly co2, I would guess the levels would have to be in some kind of equilibrium so it stands to reason that if the fish has plenty of o2 in its blood it could handle more co2, maybe, I don't know.



Blood [CO2] drives respiration in humans not Blood [O2] , I assume its the same in fish seeing that we are related in the distance past of evolution.
---------------------------
I have a Chihiros and a Twinstar and the Chihiros creates more micro bubbles both running off Chihiros 3rd Gen mesh reactors ATM. I would advise the Chihiros easy.


----------



## Dhfc123

Thanks


----------



## keano

I have the twinstar shrimp running in a 100 litre with 7 hours light a day and bubbles of 1 per sec CO2, ive zero algae and very healthy breeding crystal shrimp, even the difficult mosses are thriving


----------



## PBM3000

Does anyone run one of these _without_ CO2?


----------



## Something Fishy

Has anybody tried these with a a close lid to to test 02 levels to see if it does actually oxygenate the water on it’s own as well? Would be a good indication to see if the reaction is as effective as they claim.


----------



## Something Fishy

I guess that’s a no? Lol


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## AverageWhiteBloke

Something Fishy said:


> I guess that’s a no? Lol



I think the guy in the video I posted earlier on did mate if I remember right. Not sure if any of the forum members did although I'm not sure how reliable o2 tests would be unless somebody has a meter. I think it's pretty much a given that it will raise o2 levels, the clearer water etc is a good indication and there's no reason that now we have a fair understanding of how these things function that it wouldn't. A lot of the tanks I've seen them in generally have good surface agitation and co2 induced bubbling plants so I would guess through lit period the water is already super saturated anyway. They probably reap the benefits more through the dark and its ability to destroy algae cells. Would be nice for someone with a decent o2 meter to do a test just into some water with no plants or turbulence just to see what effect it does have.


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## Something Fishy

Thanks mate. Yeah my thinking exactly, it sure would!


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## AverageWhiteBloke

I think that a lot of folks are saying its unnecessary in a way. With good maintenance, regular changes,  surface agitation, plants producing oxygen to saturation point all can achieve the same thing bar the algae or possible bacteria sterilising effect but as with most things in the hobby some tech has been invented to make life easier if you don't mind a big white plastic thing on view in your tank. I was watching one of George's youtube vids from a new shop opening, can't remember which one off the top of my head now but I noticed that virtually every display tank in the shop had a Twinstar and eheim skimmer so if these things are snake oil they have a lot of in the know scapers fooled. I doubt that would be the case.


----------



## Edvet

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> virtually every display tank in the shop had a Twinstar and eheim skimmer


Maybe the important words here are "shop"and "display tanks"


----------



## Zeus.

alanyusupov said:


> Also find out on Russian forum about  Twinstar
> 
> or ozone or hydrogen but hardly hydrogen .. probably ozone ..
> Previously, the manufacturer makes ozone generators, but to adjust the speed of the ozone supply was not possible, and now switched to see a new way of ozone supply ...
> An interesting device to understand what's inside, so most can be done?



The use of Ozone in a filtration system for our tanks has some merits IMO, as the oxidation of the algea spores in the water should help decrease algea. But we don't want it to reduce the population of the beneficial bacteria in are plant roots, substrate and filter media. 
But if the ozone was bubbled though the water post filter with its half life being very short in water I don't think it would be an issue


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke

Edvet said:


> Maybe the important words here are "shop"and "display tanks"



Haha very valid point, although most of the "renowned" scapers also appear to be using them also. In the same way though they could be freebies and twinstar know if people see them in tanks which lets be honest, were already going to be amazing and algae free with or without their device it would encourage people to buy them thinking it's that device that made the difference.



Zeus. said:


> But if the ozone was bubbled though the water post filter with its half life being very short in water I don't think it would be an issue



I think that's why they recommend them not to be any where near the filter intake. Not sure how long it takes for the bubble to oxidise and just become harmless oxygen but I would hazard a guess and say it was pretty instantaneous.


----------



## Jack Reilly

It says in the manual not to use Twinstar with fish medications , why not ?


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke

I think I read on another forum somewhere when I was looking for cleaning instructions that fish meds can damage the plates on the diffuser.


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke

Just to put some meat on the bones of that, the poster on that forum had been complaining about the longevity of the diffuser and Twinstar had emailed them with advice on how to clean it properly to prolong life and also said using medications could shorten its life span. Assuming that copy and pasted email came from Twiinstar I would say that is why you shouldn't use meds with it in the tank...there maybe other reasons regarding certain chemical reactions or maybe it lowering the strength of certain meds I don't know.


----------



## X3NiTH

Twinstar = Pulse Electrocoagulation

The electrodes will go through either Passivation (build up of elements on electrode surface) or Dissolution (reduction of electrode material) or a combination of both.

Meds will be electrocoagulated and be degraded in their function and any metal by products could passivate the electrode reducing its functionality. Depending on the hardness of the water Copper will passivate as copper carbonate on electrodes (white precipitate), lots of fish meds contain copper.

If anyone has an oscilloscope and a twinstar it might be worth hooking them up together to work out the current reversal pulse timings (that's likely what their patent is based upon).


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke

That's what I was thinking 

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## Zeus.

spectrum dialysis of the deposits on the electrodes may help us here too to wants going on


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## Jack Reilly

Another question , could this device be detrimental to ottoconclis ? Seeing as it kills the algae they feed off and leaves the algae they don’t ? I used this for the last month and my ottos have become skinny (they had previously been thriving ). I add blanched veggies but they never seem to eat that.


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke

It shouldn't affect the algae that Ottos feed of. From what I understand the steriliser part happens when cellular algae comes in contact with the first bubble that comes off the diffuser in much the same way as a UV steriliser does it when the algae comes in contact with the glass inside. Once this reaction has taken place which is pretty much instantaneous the only thing left floating about in the tank which you can see are pure o2 bubbles left over from the reaction which are harmless. These things although they kill spores on contact don't affect any algae that are building up on surfaces which is where Ottos etc feed from. 

Ottos are notorious finicky feeders at times plus they will strip a tank of all the soft surface algae in no time which is why they need other sources of food. When you first put them in there will be plenty of food on surfaces for them unless you have other types of grazer in there like SAE or similar so they gorge on it pretty quick. If you run a clean tank it's quite difficult to grow algae at the rate they want to eat it which isn't often you'll hear that in this forum. In that way I suppose an algae inhibitor won't help that situation but there's only certain types of algae that Ottos will eat and the inhibitor supposedly destroys them all on a cellular level. Keep up with the different veg and see if you can find one they like in particular. Another trick is to place some round stones in some water on a window sill and wait until they are covered in an algae film then pop them in the tank and let them clean them. There are also known issues I've heard about where if they were starved for too long in transport the bacteria in their stomachs can die off so regardless of how much food they eat they can't break it down and starve anyway. I don't think this can be prevented by keeping them in groups and the bacteria from ones stomach can be passed to another.


----------



## Fred13

Sorry for bumping an already old topic.
I dont have the time to read all the pages for this product but i only have 1 question .

Is it an ozone generator or not ? I know that ozone could be very harmful even for us , it is carcinogen. 
So, is twinstar the same ?

I am interested to test it but if there are dangers i prefer to keep it away of my room
Thank you


----------



## Edvet

Basically water hydrolysis H2O -> H2 and O2


----------



## ian_m

Fred13 said:


> I know that ozone could be very harmful even for us , it is carcinogen.


Ozone per se is not a carcinogen but can react with other substance to produce possible (note possible) carcinogens. The Twinstar does not generate Ozone. Ozone generation is usually performed by high voltage electrical discharge through air.

See here for BigClive taking an ozone generator apart.


Ozone is a very good steriliser, and is used in swimming pools and big commercial aquariums/penguin pools etc as it can be generated as needed.


----------



## Fred13

ian_m said:


> Ozone per se is not a carcinogen but can react with other substance to produce possible (note possible) carcinogens. The Twinstar does not generate Ozone. Ozone generation is usually performed by high voltage electrical discharge through air.
> 
> See here for BigClive taking an ozone generator apart.
> 
> 
> Ozone is a very good steriliser, and is used in swimming pools and big commercial aquariums/penguin pools etc as it can be generated as needed.




So the twinstar produces purely oxygen as it claims ? 
Thank you very much Ian for the information!


----------



## GHNelson

Very informative!....
Great video....well put over...…
hoggie


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## Hanuman

I have read nearly all the thread just so I could build my own opinion. Here are my conclusions:

1. No real and "scientific" tests have been carried out so far by an independent party even by experienced scapers. By real test I mean as in with several tanks at the same time with the same protocols in place (same water changes, same ferts, same lighting, same scape, etc etc etc) and with one or even 2 reference groups to compare to. Of course this is something that only people with a lot of hardware would be able to do since it would be costly and time consuming. The closest tests to a "proper test" that I have seen here is the ones carried out by @viktorlantos but still those are far from being fully reliable tests and his conclusions are partially subjective. In fact this is something that should be carried out by the manufacturer itself but clearly they do not seem interested in doing such comprehensive tests and sharing them with the world. I did find a video where they actually made a side by side comparison of two tanks, one with the reactor the other one without it but in all honesty if you look closely that test is far from ideal and leaves place to lots of criticism.

2. Lack of transparency and bipartisanism:
 - The person representing TS posting here is fighting tooth and nail to defend the product that he is selling but he keeps saying that Twinstar is not willing to explain the ins and out of how this device works. Understandably so as they do not want to other companies to copy but clearly it does not help in addressing the concerns of people. In fact product a proper test with a reference group would have given all the proof that people are looking for but to this day none have been done by TS.
- George Farmer the founder of this very forum, known and respected Youtuber is also sponsored by TS among other even bigger brands. Nothing wrong with that obviously but his personal opinion on the product would have been interesting specially when he said he would report on it but never did. Below quote was his last one on the subject on this thread:


George Farmer said:


> I have one running myself now. I'll report back soon.


Perhaps he didn't want to give his opinion considering it would have been interpreted as biased due to his sponsorship with Twinstar but then again if he accepted to be sponsored by TS it should because he believes in what they build. So George, it's still not to late to provide your opinion 

3. In a nutshell this device "seems" to be more catered to the experienced/professional scaper or the ones that know what they are doing and more specifically during the initial setup of a tank. This seems to leave out 90% of the scapers yet TS does not target the professional specifically so clearly it's a matter of making as much money as possible whether it's fitted to your needs or not.

My conclusion is that I don't need it. Proper husbandry will take care of the algea perhaps even better than an O2 / H generator that turns on/off at specific intervals and will consume electricity (granted not that much). Of course I am still open minded and willing to read and listen what other still have to say, but if after 41 pages this is still not a clear cut case then it most certainly means this product is far from being that useful generally speaking. More of a gimmick.

If anyone feels offended then I am sorry it was not my intention.


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## Tim Harrison

I think that sums it all up pretty adequately. There does seem to be a distinct lack of evidence with any degree of scientific rigour to substantiate TS's claims; and so far to my knowledge there exists what can only be described as anecdotal evidence...
However, I've discussed the TS with experienced scapers and I think we all pretty much came to the conclusion that it does help with green algae to a degree, and that it perhaps provides a little more wriggle room in an injected tank when it comes to maintaining O2 saturation. But you're right, it's not essential to the functioning of a well kept and healthy tank: so you definitely do not need one. I think I've mentioned that above, possibly more than once. 
To be fair to George he has passed comment on the TS many times in his subsequent YouTube videos, and he's the kind of person that takes his integrity pretty seriously. So I doubt he'd have very much to do with the TS if he didn't think it worked on some level or other.


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## Edvet

(no disrespect but how would you feel if your doctor prescribed expensive meds (not covered by insurance) on anecdotal evidence without any degree of scientific evidence? just my viewpoint)


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## Tim Harrison

That's not a particularly fair analogy. At the end of the day it's just a nonessential gadget. It's not something that's going to ease the suffering of humankind. Nor is the TS, and especially the Chihiros, going to break the bank...
Sure I'd like the manufacturer's claims to be substantiated with more robust science, just like everyone else, but nevertheless, I think the scientific principle behind it is fairly sound...at least.
Either way, you are absolutely right to be concerned with the lack of scientific evidence regarding it's actual effectiveness, and because of that it's obviously still very controversial. I guess you pays your money, you takes your chance


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## Zeus.

Edvet said:


> (no disrespect but how would you feel if your doctor prescribed expensive meds (not covered by insurance) on anecdotal evidence without any degree of scientific evidence? just my viewpoint)



how would you feel if your doctor prescribed  meds or treatment which is prescribed/advised  by its governing professional body, but your doctor failed to give is personal recommendation (which he isnt covered for by their governing professional body) 

But like the 'WHO' guidelines on sugar intake  sorry well off topic


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## Something Fishy

Been using Chihrios one in my nano 30l and noticed much slower algae with same treatment as before. Get at least 3 weeks without sign of any on glass etc, just looks awful as white.

Could be smaller tank less vol means it circulated easier and works better than say a larger one.

Only draw for me to TS is the colour grey on top - it baffles me why they are all white! Make them grey or black please.

Anybody tried to paint theirs? I’d be tempted by the cheaper Chihiros and paint it.


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## Something Fishy

I think we tend to avoid too much surface agitation as we lose co2 in term, so likely why these are so popular with aquascapists as fish tanks without co2 can be as agitated as they like.

I have a sump on my planted tank with heavy overflow and return pump surface agitation so I likely don’t need one on the bigger tank.  Having said that if they do actually do something we all don’t yet appreciate for killing spores and illness, coupled with they fact they oxygenate without gas off and look cool in the process, than that’s reason enough for me!

Like I said the worst part is that they are white, such an eye sore in a lovey planted natural environment.


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## Kalum

this is exactly the reason i use it, it's a fancy air stone in my eyes and anything else is a bonus, i have virtually no surface agitation and want to keep it that way due to frogbit so this serves a purpose for me (just not necessarily what it's being marketed as/for)


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## dw1305

Hi all,


Something Fishy said:


> Like I said the worst part is that they are white, such an eye sore in a lovey planted natural environment.


Just wait. (from page 4.)






cheers Darrel


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## Something Fishy

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, We still aren't sure. In this thread there is a suggestion that it is a <"nano/micro-bubble generator">.My guess would be that the <"oxygen part is at least as important as the nano-bubbles">, even if they do exist.Just wait. (from page 4.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cheers Darrel



Ha true I had thought somebody would say that 

Just make them grey or black sure! I clean the mesh in a thin bleach water split too so that soon comes off 


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## Ady34

Hi,
How often do the chihiros version cycle please?
Thanks,
Ady.


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## Andrew Butler

Ady34 said:


> How often do the chihiros version cycle please?


I think that depends which setting you put it on.


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## Ady34

Andrew Butler said:


> I think that depends which setting you put it on.


Yeah, I was under the impression, perhaps incorrectly, that it would be every half hour or so, didn’t come on once last night that I saw except when I set it up. I could have missed it I guess or it may just have needed to set itself in a cycle. It came on this morning when I was doing a water change though so that’s encouraging. 

Does everybody set the tds correctly on theirs? I don’t currently have a tds pen so don’t know the tank value. 

Thanks
Ady.


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## Andrew Butler

You've got the newer chihiros version with an app haven't you? No experience with that.
Maybe as it's 'intelligent' it knows it's night?!
I know on the previous version there is some kind of info in instructions to dial back for hard water but don't think anything of the sort with my twinstar one.

I think looking at your water companies report for your postcode should give you enough of an idea for this.


----------



## Ed Wiser

I found out with the Twinstar that it doesn't like TDS above 300 ppm  Once I started using my Ro/di water for water changes instead of my tap water it started to work as it is suppose too. So high TDS tanks is not a good match for this type of unit.


----------



## Ady34

Andrew Butler said:


> You've got the newer chihiros version with an app haven't you? No experience with that.
> Maybe as it's 'intelligent' it knows it's night?!
> I know on the previous version there is some kind of info in instructions to dial back for hard water but don't think anything of the sort with my twinstar one.
> 
> I think looking at your water companies report for your postcode should give you enough of an idea for this.


Thanks, it seems to be working now, on every 7 minutes or so currently from the last half o hour I’ve been watching the tank 
My tds from tap is around 85 however I’m guessing adding fertilisers increases this plus perhaps the Seiryu stone will effect it also. 
I’ll have to invest in a tds pen again but I think it will change dramatically through the week so I don’t really know what value I’m supposed to enter 



Ed Wiser said:


> I found out with the Twinstar that it doesn't like TDS above 300 ppm  Once I started using my Ro/di water for water changes instead of my tap water it started to work as it is suppose too. So high TDS tanks is not a good match for this type of unit.



I hope the chihiros is working now as it has found its cycle and not because I did a water change which lowered the tds.....

Cheerio


----------



## Something Fishy

My Chihiros v3 has been working very well as the last one was faulty and touch button didn’t work.

Yesterday I noticed this one was also slightly damp on the control unit, water drips down the cable and into the unit so be careful.  This one has since also stopped working.

If I get another one I think I’ll go Twinstar as these seem to just not be made very well at all and corrode so easily as the main units are not water tight or any attempt to seal.


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## Andrew Butler

Something Fishy said:


> water drips down the cable and into the unit so be careful


Just google 'drip loop aquarium' you should always have one with any electrical product when water is involved.


Something Fishy said:


> This one has since also stopped working.


Switch it off, unplug it straight away and do not use it again.


Something Fishy said:


> If I get another one I think I’ll go Twinstar as these seem to just not be made very well at all and corrode so easily as the main units are not water tight or any attempt to seal.


The twinstar sterilisers are not waterproof either. I've both a Twinstar nano and a couple of Chihiros doctors and for the money I would not buy another Twinstar.
The Chihiros replacement meshes are a fraction of the price compared to the twinstar and also fit the twinstar; I know my choice.


----------



## Something Fishy

Andrew Butler said:


> Just google 'drip loop aquarium' you should always have one with any electrical product when water is involved.
> 
> Switch it off, unplug it straight away and do not use it again.
> 
> The twinstar sterilisers are not waterproof either. I've both a Twinstar nano and a couple of Chihiros doctors and for the money I would not buy another Twinstar.
> The Chihiros replacement meshes are a fraction of the price compared to the twinstar and also fit the twinstar; I know my choice.



Thanks for feedback, no idea how water gets in as it has to go back up technically but it does seem to. Even a tiny splash I guess would be enough to ruin it inside. Would siliconing it around the edges be worth it you recon?

The wires on the Chihiros one in the actual tank also have started to come loose coincidently at the same time!


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## Andrew Butler

Something Fishy said:


> Thanks for feedback, no idea how water gets in as it has to go back up technically but it does seem to. Even a tiny splash I guess would be enough to ruin it inside. Would siliconing it around the edges be worth it you recon?


Which version do you have? - I will have to look what / if the instructions recommend (assuming there are any included!)
I will also have to have a look at my Chihiros and its construction over the Twinstar; wont be today though.
The cables all enter the bottom of my Chihiros so if you are getting water entering the unit along a cable this suggests to me the drip loop is not big enough maybe this link might explain things a little easier - not saying all the info is right but should give you the general idea.
If the cord is too short from the doctor to the mesh I did manage to find the correct sized extension; the size you are looking for is 3.5 x 1.3mm but is a little tricky searching as headphone type plugs are 3.5mm so you get flooded with those so this link should help. if it is too short from the power supply to the doctor then you can buy longer ones of those easily enough too.
*STOP PRESS*
Am I correct to think you have the doctor inside the cabinet of your TMC Sig 600 sump build? If so that would probably explain everything. The inside of the cabinet will naturally be a 'moist' environment so strictly speaking you should not have something without the correct IP rating inside the cabinet. If this is all correct then simply moving your doctor to the outside of the cabinet should solve this unless you're going to soak it in water (still use drip loops).

Just thinking about the Twinstar and also the cradle you can get for it left me thinking about the cable placement; looking at the Twinstar Iberica page about installing the unit you can see the power in connection (low voltage) is at the bottom of the unit and the socket for the mesh is at the top. - I wouldn't like to comment any further

Just remember you should always keep a drip loop with any mains voltage socket when water's involved.



Something Fishy said:


> The wires on the Chihiros one in the actual tank also have started to come loose coincidently at the same time!


I had this problem too assuming you mean where the cable meets the mesh body; if I still have the mesh I will have it I'll put a picture up.
The rubber around the connection between the mesh and the cable meet came loose; you could see the cable inside including the coloured wires but it looked to have an internally sealed connection an carried on working fine.
I've no idea what kind of voltage is put out to the mesh.
I did consider some heat shrink tubing to also turn it black instead of that unsightly white but never did.


----------



## Ady34

Something Fishy said:


> Would siliconing it around the edges be worth it you recon?


Hi, my 4th generation unit came with 2 small white gaskets which I’m now guessing are to slip into the connection points on the main unit before plugging the wires in to ‘waterproof’. I may have to do that


----------



## Andrew Butler

Ady34 said:


> Hi, my 4th generation unit came with 2 small white gaskets which I’m now guessing are to slip into the connection points on the main unit before plugging the wires in to ‘waterproof’. I may have to do that


pictures of the 4th gen and the gaskets would be great.
The original power etc with the doctor and twinstar may have some kind of barrier; will investigate.
It isn't 240v at any of these points but drip loop always a good idea in my opinion


----------



## Ady34

Andrew Butler said:


> pictures of the 4th gen and the gaskets would be great.
> The original power etc with the doctor and twinstar may have some kind of barrier; will investigate.
> It isn't 240v at any of these points but drip loop always a good idea in my opinion


I’ll get some photos later. The gaskets almost looked like they weren’t meant to be in the box, offcuts or something, but now I think that’s what they are.
Drip loops are a must I agree. I haven’t stuck mine in position as yet as I wanted to decide where exactly I wanted it but once I have I will definitely have the loops.
Cheerio,


----------



## John S

I got those gaskets with my v3. There is no mention of them in the instructions though.


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## Something Fishy

Sounds like they are sorting the water proofing then!!

Great observation but sadly no - that tank is completely separate so the one that corroded was outside on a wall raised above the tank so no idea how water got in and killed it...


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## Ady34

John S said:


> I got those gaskets with my v3. There is no mention of them in the instructions though.


Yep, they’re the ones, and the same, no mention of them anywhere.


----------



## Andrew Butler

John S said:


> I got those gaskets with my v3


I didn't 



Something Fishy said:


> Great observation but sadly no - that tank is completely separate so the one that corroded was outside on a wall raised above the tank so no idea how water got in and killed it...





Something Fishy said:


> water drips down the cable and into the unit so be careful


Is this the same one?


----------



## Something Fishy

Andrew Butler said:


> I didn't
> 
> 
> 
> Is this the same one?



It is indeed Andrew yeah. The little unit was on the wall by the tank with the sticky pad raised above the tank and yet still somehow the water dropped down the cable and inside 

I can only assume it’s due to not unplugging the unit before I took it out the tank.


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## John S

Andrew Butler said:


> I didn't


The reason maybe Andrew is that I ordered a v3 but it came in a v4 box for some reason so maybe the parts were just left when it was packed. The Bluetooth label is masked out on the box it came in.


----------



## Andrew Butler

Andrew Butler said:


> If the cord is too short from the doctor to the mesh I did manage to find the correct sized extension; the size you are looking for is 3.5 x 1.3mm but is a little tricky searching as headphone type plugs are 3.5mm so you get flooded with those


I can't edit this post (#837) so maybe a mod will? I should have put 2.5 x 0.7mm I think!
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/112005075990  I think is what I've used


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## papa_c

purchased a Doctor 3 couple of weeks ago, was working fine but the "output" from the mesh has decreased to a trickle, there is no calcium build up on the mesh. My tank has very hard water and I dose EI ferts. Any ideas has the mesh got a limited life, if so, how long as mine has lasted little over 3 week.


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## John S

papa_c said:


> purchased a Doctor 3 couple of weeks ago, was working fine but the "output" from the mesh has decreased to a trickle, there is no calcium build up on the mesh. My tank has very hard water and I dose EI ferts. Any ideas has the mesh got a limited life, if so, how long as mine has lasted little over 3 week.


I read that they don't work if your TDS is over 400. I'm not sure if 'don't work' means they don't come on at all or just function improperly.


----------



## Ed Wiser

They do not come on at all in hard water or High TDS water. Work best in 180 TDS water. Found this out by testing the water and slowly lowering the TDS in my aquarium with RO/DI water changes.


----------



## papa_c

Bit the bullet and purchased a new disc.

Here's what I have found, TDS out of the tap is 295, the old disc doesn't produce bubbles, new disc does.

I does EI salts and the tank water measures 600+ TDS before weekly water change. Old disc doesn't produce bubbles, new disc produces bubbles as though it is in the tap water.

Looks like TDS has no impact on function, but does high TDS shorten the life of the disc? My original disc seems to have lasted only a month.

Anybody else seen a similar behaviour?


----------



## Andrew Butler

Andrew Butler said:


> Chihiros and its construction over the Twinstar;


I forgot to post these, think they make sense......


 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 .


----------



## Zeus.

Posted else where but thought it was worth adding to this thread also



Bubble free tank with twinstar/chihiros 

In the vid you can just see all the bubbles being sucked up by the intake


----------



## Zeus.

Daveslaney said:


> I think I have read On the Twinstar website not to do this.





Zeus. said:


> Think I might have worked or of thought of a reason.
> 
> twinstars/Chihiros doctors are just basically 'Electrolysis of water'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So produce Oxygen gas, Hydrogen gas, H+ Ions and OH- ions
> 
> yes we wont the extra O2 gas to try and boost the [O2] but the H2 is potentially explosive if it collects in any volume the canister, so if they advised to have the gases go direct into the canister and 'IF' you canister 'exploded' it would be on their recommendation/advise, so it makes sense they advise you not to have it near the intake of the filter 'Just in case' so the H2 will just escape mainly from the surface of the water, so basically they are covering themselves IMO.
> 
> Been using the little mod for a day and the water in the tank is clearer tonight with that milky white appearance of the water you get when using the twinstars/Chihiros doctors has gone



Just an update on the mesh placement so all the bubbles produced get taken in by the filter.

The night pH has increased by about 0.5 pH but the time it takes to hit the target pH hasnt changed ! (I know it hasnt changed as my PLC via pH controllor records how long it takes and displays it on mobile/webpage)


----------



## Kalum

So going my that it seems to oxygenate the water more at night but strangely doesn't affect the drop when co2 is on?


----------



## Tim Harrison

So, I've been using the TwinStar brain with the Chihiros reactor for some time now and what I've discovered is that the reactors, although around a 20-25% cheaper than the TwinStar reactors, don't seem to last as long, maybe a few months before they need replacing.

I clean my reactors in citric acid about 1/4 to 1/2 a level teaspoon in a cup of water and I've noticed that after the first month or two the reactor needs cleaning more often. The period between cleans seems to rapidly decrease to once a week and then every few days or so, otherwise no fine mist or very little.

Today, I put my hand in the tank to do some maintenance and noticed a sharp pain in my finger where I'd cut it (read semi-healed open wound)...it felt like an electric shock. Being a masochist I tried again and the same electric shock sensation. Quickly putting two and two together I turned the TwinStar off and sure enough no electric shock.

The fish were fine and when I used my other hand (no cuts), it felt fine also. Nevertheless, the Chihiros reactor has now been taken out of the tank and I'm just wondering if anyone else has had a similar expereince? i.e. a similarly rapidly deteriorating reactor either TwinStar or Chihiros, linked to either a TwinStar or Chihiros brain, or an electric shock.

I'm starting to think that pairing the TwinStar brain with the Chihiros reactor may not be such a good money saving idea after all...


----------



## Siege

Hi Tim,
I’ve had the same electric shock from a Twinstar reactor, as has a friend of mine who came round.

It seems to happen if I have any scratches on my hand and more if I have bare feet. I wouldn’t call it painful or anything to worry me in my case. Haven’t had it for 6 months though.

twinstar advise that it is normal and some people are more sensitive to electric than others. In my case more sometimes!


Re cleaning, I’ve no experience of the Chiros reactors but cleaning my Twinstar. Once I start it does seem to need cleaning more often. My theory is the citric acid etches the metal leaving it susceptible to more lime scale in the pits (if that sounds right).

I’ve had more success with soaking it in a bleach solution at the same time I do the glassware (not as often as glass though). more as a preventative thing before any significant limescale builds up. It Seems to last much longer this way.

Just my experiences.


----------



## John S

I'm using a Chihiros brain and its on it's second reactor since December. The first one worked well for about two months before I first cleaned it in white vinegar. What alerted me was the appearance of green algae and then I noticed a reduced output from the reactor. The clean appeared to restore it but it then needed weekly cleans as the output dropped off. As a last resort I cleaned it in a kettle descaler and this made it function as if brand new ..........for a day before the reactor died.

Maybe the kettle cleaner was too abrasive? There appeared to be no fault with the reactor wiring when tested with a meter and compared to a new reactor. I've not experienced any electric shock.


----------



## Siege

I tried Vikal limescale cleaner before when the reactor was nearing its end. 
Also worked liked new for a day and than died the next!


----------



## John S

Siege said:


> I tried Vikal limescale cleaner before when the reactor was nearing its end.
> Also worked liked new for a day and than died the next!



Well I won't repeat that experiment then seeing as we both have had failures with that method.

Will try bleach next time. What ratio to water do you use?


----------



## Siege

Hi @John S

Don’t really measure it. A good glug, maybe 700ml of the the cheapest Tesco thin bleach with no perfumes to perhaps less than 5L of water ( just enough to cover the glassware in the sink).

Bleach is only c. 40p for 2 litres.

Generally do it when the plastic of the reactor looks dirty. I’ve Soaked for 30 mins to 2 hours again haven’t measured it.

After a quick brush over with a normal toothbrush and a good rinse under the tap, then back in the tank.

Doing this the reactor needs cleaning less often I’ve found.


----------



## papa_c

Hey Tim, my experience of the Chihiros reactors is they seem to last no longer than 2 months. After the first clean the output always seems reduced. Almost as though there is a coating that is removed when first cleaning that impacts the function.


----------



## Zeus.

No electric shock here with either my Chihiros or twinstar (did have it once with a heater that went to earth so removed/replaced it). Had mine about 18 months both. Hard to compare the one in 500l tank with 50l tank OFC but the one in bigger tank sclaes up quicker. Tend to order a few at a time from ebay. 
Your twinstar controller may just be on its way out some electric components just happen to not last as long as they should


----------



## papa_c

Zeus, in your 500l what setting do you have it set to, and how long do the reactors last before you have to replace them?


----------



## Ed Wiser

My M3 doesn’t have the blue led on it.  Noticed it last night when got home from work. Any idea’s tds is 78


----------



## Zeus.

papa_c said:


> Zeus, in your 500l what setting do you have it set to, and how long do the reactors last before you have to replace them?



I have the Chihiros doctor in my 500L and the twinstar nano in my 50l reason is the Chihiros is more powerful eg more bubbles. Try to descale them weekly as I have Very Hard water- to hard for them really if you go of the manual. I then replaced the reactor mesh when it works poorly, the 500L tank one never lasts as long normally a few months but I dont log it  I have both set on the first setting


----------



## alto

Is this the point where I should say, I ran my Twinstar for a year or so without ever cleaning  the reactor 

Then gave it a good rinse when I rescaped the tank, then thought maybe I should buy a new reactor (susceptible to ukaps propaganda ) ... which I never did as it’s no longer available locally and shipping is more than I’m willing to pay 

Maybe I should unearth it from the cupboard (yes it’s been there ever since re my laziness) and see if it’s still a worthy Mist Maker  

(the perils of soft tap water)


----------



## Tim Harrison

Thanks for the replies guys, it's much appreciated, and thanks for sharing your experiences @Siege, they were all very helpful.
I guess then that the problems are common to both Twinstar and Chihiros alike, which is reassuring.


----------



## Ed Wiser

By M3 started working again. Came home from work and it was working. 
I think the problem with the twinstar. Is that the unit is like a black box. You don’t know if it is working or not. I had to read every post on the unit across the web to realize that TDS was important to the unit. There is no feedback telling you anything when it will come on and why it is not coming on. If I ever get a chance to talk to a company rep. He or her will get an ear full as to what is needed for this device.


----------



## Zeus.

alto said:


> the perils of soft tap water



Think I will move to a soft water area as there do seem to be lots of little advantages with it and scaping


----------



## Ady34

Yep, my chihiros has gone through 2 reactors in 7 months. Cleaned one in a vinegar solution and it doesn’t work the same. Bleach didn’t remove the scale. Looks like a relitively expensive piece of kit when buying new reactors every few months.


----------



## Wolfito

waste of money sums it up


----------



## WAILIYA

foxfish said:


> I really don't know if ozone would be of much benefit in our planted tanks but it has been used in virtually every other type of fishkeeping environment like marines & Koi pond, even human swimming pools.
> The only experience I have had with an ozone generator was in the 80s & they were pretty dangerous things to have around the house but I am sure they are safer nowadays?
> So the question is ... is the twinspar an ozone generator & if so would it be of any benefit to us?


 I've scoured the site looking for a straight forward answer to how it works, but been constantly confronted by patronising sales patter. It doesn't make me want to buy


----------



## akwarium

there is no magic anti algae machine,  simply because algae can have many causes and there is not one solution for all of them.

but higher oxygen levels, ultra clear water and maybe even a little disinfection all make sense, so not that bad.


----------



## itsBobby

WAILIYA said:


> I've scoured the site looking for a straight forward answer to how it works, but been constantly confronted by patronising sales patter. It doesn't make me want to buy


It's electrolysis... Literally a voltage is applied across 2 pieces of mesh that are spaced slightly apart. The current is flowing through the water inbetween the 2 pieces and molecules are ripped apart.

Bear in mind it's not producing 'pure hydrogen and oxygen' as keeps being stated in marketing material and the various YouTube shills but in fact the entire biological soup including all of our fertilisers and whatever else so the byproducts are essentially impossible to guess.

Certainly these electrolysis devices (which are all the same no matter what black magic the more expensive ones try to dress theirs in) are completely unproven in any independent test. Even people who've used them say they don't do anything.

Just a fizzy drink maker for those who need trinkets.


----------



## Siege

Yes the idea is that single cell things find it hard to live in oxygen rich water. Apparently the same technology that was used to make water safe during the war!

I know 2 people who have used for different purpose than I - 
1 it prevented hole in the head disease on discus and another that prevented mould on high grade shrimp eggs.

Yes agree it is not a miracle cure for algae but all that oxygen can only be good for the plants, fish and filter imo.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,
I'll be honest <"I'm a sceptic">. We think that it generates nano and micro-bubbles.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Siege

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> I'll be honest <"I'm a sceptic">. We think that it generates nano and micro-bubbles.
> 
> cheers Darrel



I’m also a sceptic, but use it! Both chaps I mention got it for other reasons, they just reported back the differences they noticed since plugging it in. 

Forgot to say it looks pretty cool also, which sometimes is the main factor!


----------



## itsBobby

Siege said:


> Yes the idea is that single cell things find it hard to live in oxygen rich water. Apparently the same technology that was used to make water safe during the war!
> 
> I know 2 people who have used for different purpose than I -
> 1 it prevented hole in the head disease on discus and another that prevented mould on high grade shrimp eggs.
> 
> Yes agree it is not a miracle cure for algae but all that oxygen can only be good for the plants, fish and filter imo.


Do you think those tiny bubbles are contributing to the DOC? They're not dissolving as far as I can see, and not disturbing the surface of the water enough to do anything at that level.


----------



## Zeus.

I have my reactor just under my FX6 filter intake, that way 90% of the bubbles are taken in by the filter, which should increase the aerobic filtering capacity of the canister IMO, plus has the bonus of tank not full of micro bubbles.


----------



## Andrew Butler

Siege said:


> Forgot to say it looks pretty cool


Ah come on now Steven, not everyone thinks a little white thing looks cool.
Personally I hate everything in tank and this being white in particular is even worse; it could just be me though!


----------



## Zeus.

Andrew Butler said:


> Ah come on now Steven, not everyone thinks a little white thing looks cool.
> Personally I hate everything in tank and this being white in particular is even worse; it could just be me though!



Given a choice off black or white reactor I would get black as not in your face as much


----------



## Siege

Andrew Butler said:


> Ah come on now Steven, not everyone thinks a little white thing looks cool.
> Personally I hate everything in tank and this being white in particular is even worse; it could just be me though!




Haha! I didn’t mean the thing itself, more the mist blowing. When turning it on after a large water change it’s like Sherlock Holmes's London!



Zeus. said:


> Given a choice off black or white reactor I would get black as not in your face as much




Interesting, I was thinking about colour today. Couldn't make up my mind what would be best. I wonder if Twinstar thought the same hence part grey and part white!


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





itsBobby said:


> Do you think those tiny bubbles are contributing to the DOC?


I'm pretty sure they will increase DO. Even though the bubbles don't look like they are increasing the gas exchange surface area they will be, and they will also get trapped in plant leaves etc.

If nano-bubbles are being generated they are very persistent and are one of the reasons for the patented <"sterilant effects"> of these kinds of kit.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Andrew Butler

Zeus. said:


> Given a choice off black or white reactor I would get black as not in your face as much


I agree with you here 100% Karl


Siege said:


> Interesting, I was thinking about colour today. Couldn't make up my mind what would be best. I wonder if Twinstar thought the same hence part grey and part white!


It still looks very white in the aquarium and with the top and support stem being white it looks very white; they're trying to make them stand out I think.


Siege said:


> Haha! I didn’t mean the thing itself, more the mist blowing. When turning it on after a large water change it’s like Sherlock Holmes's London!


So long as you don't use London tapwater - haha


----------



## Hanuman

The never ending discussion on the mysterious bubble makers.... 

Twinstar and Chihiros must love how much electronic ink has been consumed to discuss about their mysterious product which they have refused over and over again to demonstrate scientifically what they really do. Yet it doesn't stop people from swearing they know all about it...


----------



## rebel

Hanuman said:


> they have refused over and over again to demonstrate scientifically what they really do


They don't need to do this even for some human supplements. Whatever sells with the least work and cost is what works for companies.


----------



## Hanuman

Unfortunatly yes.


----------



## zozo

It's a common strategy (phenomenon) Bussinesman and Politicians use.

Reality is in perception..

And its something in human nature and very ancient, but still darn effective.


----------



## Tim Harrison

Well I've not been using mine for a while now, since the last reactor I bought lasted a week before it fizzled out and stopped working. 
So far there has been no noticeable difference in algal growth. But my scape is mature and biologically stable with very dense plant biomass.


----------



## Deano3

Is it best to use citric acid to clean it ? You can get powder from willkinsons ?

I tried using a table spoon of bleach in a cup but still barley any bubbles 

Thanks dean

Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk


----------



## Zeus.

Deano3 said:


> Is it best to use citric acid to clean it ? You can get powder from willkinsons ?
> 
> I tried using a table spoon of bleach in a cup but still barley any bubbles
> 
> Thanks dean
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk



Thats what I use,  just purchased 5Kg of citric acid for £15 - should last years. Normally add a teaspoon to beaker/cup/glass and add boiling water soon descales it


----------



## Deano3

Zeus. said:


> Thats what I use,  just purchased 5Kg of citric acid for £15 - should last years. Normally add a teaspoon to beaker/cup/glass and add boiling water soon descales it


Apparently sell it in Wilkinson's on there website so will look tomorro cheers for that 

Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk


----------



## Deano3

Added a spoonful to cup woth boiling water was expecting to see some fizzing etc but not seeing anything, been in there few hours now.

The tub i purchased just says citric acid for and its purpose is for wine apparently but should do same job i imagine.

Dean

Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk


----------



## Zeus.

Mine fizzes as soon as I add the hot/boiling water but my water is very hard.

Has it descaled the reactor?


----------



## Deano3

Tbh the reactor didnt really looked scaled just not throwing many bubbles out at all within the space of a week or so as at first it was throwing out loads.

I am going to take out soon and put in cup of water with some prime.

Thanks dean

Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk


----------



## Deano3

Just put in take and still the same not many bubbles any ideas ?

Thanks dean

Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk


----------



## Zeus.

How old is the reactor ? 
They don't last forever !


----------



## Deano3

Zeus. said:


> How old is the reactor ?
> They don't last forever !


Not entirely sure maybe 7 months or so when i purchased it. Will have a look at prices of new ones.

Thanks dean

Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk


----------



## John S

I've had 2 and neither gor past 6 months. The failures were as you are seeing.


----------



## Zeus.

Mine last about 3 months with my water


----------



## Thumper

I had a Twinstar Mini M and a Chihiros Doctor - both in different setups and the only thing i noticed was a "fresher" smell of the water.
Currently i'm back to the good old Söchtinger Oxydator to enrich my water with O2 at all times and thus keep the DOC low.


----------



## Deano3

Maybe its on its way out, cant justify buying another reactor so once doing nothing i will just remove i think.

How do you chrck hardness of water as i am sure mune is very hard do i need a tds meter ?

Thanks dean

Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk


----------



## Andrew Butler

Deano3 said:


> How do you chrck hardness of water as i am sure mune is very hard do i need a tds meter ?


A TDS meter will tell you your hardness, yes. If you know where your water is coming from / where in the country you are you will probably get a general idea - lookup water reports to give you a general idea although they're not gospel.


Thumper said:


> Currently i'm back to the good old Söchtinger Oxydator to enrich my water with O2 at all times and thus keep the DOC low.


This is something I saw used on another thread and is something I have in mind too, I've really hard water so wonder if this would work better although I know (think) it does a slightly different job


----------



## Wookii

So, I finally managed to make my way through this entire monster thread.

After seeing this ugly white device, with more than a passing resemblance to the USS Starship Enterprise, in a large number of very nice looking planted tanks online, my interest has been piqued.

So this device uses electrolysis to generate oxygen to increase O2 concentrations in the water, much like the Söchtinger Oxydator mentioned above which instead slowly doses hydrogen peroxide directly into the tank to generate O2.

Is there anything else these devices are doing other than raising O2 as the active end product?

Why does dosing with O2 have such a beneficial impact? (I appreciate discussions on the ‘benefits’ are often controversial, but there seem to be sufficient reports of ‘some’ positive impact to consider these to be more than just snake oil products)

From a technical standpoint, surely with sufficient surface movement, are O2 levels not close to saturated anyway - or is that and assumption too far and not feasible with typical levels of surface movement?


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Wookii said:


> So this device uses electrolysis to generate oxygen to increase O2 concentrations in the water,


It definitely produces oxygen.





Wookii said:


> much like the Söchtinger Oxydator mentioned above which instead slowly doses hydrogen peroxide directly into the tank to generate O2


Yes, the Oxydator drips the hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) onto a ceramic catalyst (containing platinum (Pt))  and that catalyses the breakdown of 2H2O2 to O2 and 2H2O.





Wookii said:


> Is there anything else these devices are doing other than raising O2 as the active end product?


 We think it is a nano bubble generator as well, these very small bubbles are very persistent in the water column, have antimicrobial properties and <"a patent that covers them">. 





Wookii said:


> Why does dosing with O2 have such a beneficial impact?  From a technical standpoint, surely with sufficient surface movement, are O2 levels not close to saturated anyway - or is that and assumption too far and not feasible with typical levels of surface movement?


It depends, it could make <"microbial biofiltration more effective">, but I think you are correct, low oxygen levels are very unlikely to be a problem in a <"planted tank"> with <"water movement">. 

You can biologically treat sewage (which has a huge BOD (~600mg/L oxygen)  in the <"activated (aerated) sludge process">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Wookii

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, It definitely produces oxygen.Yes, the Oxydator drips the hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) onto a ceramic catalyst (containing platinum (Pt))  and that catalyses the breakdown of 2H2O2 to O2 and 2H2O.



Thanks Darrel.

As far as I’m aware though the Oxydator doses H2O2 directly into the tank. The reaction/addition of O2 is just via exposure to the tank water itself.

The small catalyst pieces inside the reactor serve only to produce enough reaction and O2 inside the reactor to force the H2O2 out of the bottom in small continuous quantities through two small pin holes.

This is a decent video on making a DIY alternative, that is also useful in that it shows in detail how the Söchtinger version works (there is a bit of rambling, but from about 1 min it is how’s how it works):


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Wookii said:


> As far as I’m aware though the Oxydator doses H2O2 directly into the tank. The reaction/addition of O2 is just via exposure to the tank water itself. The small catalyst pieces inside the reactor serve only to produce enough reaction and O2 inside the reactor to force the H2O2 out of the bottom in small continuous quantities through two small pin holes.


I didn't know this. I've never actually used one. Hydrogen peroxide would definitely increase the ORP of the water and it would still decompose to oxygen and water.

As long it was a very controlled release there shouldn't be too many problems.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Wookii

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, I didn't know this. I've never actually used one. Hydrogen peroxide would definitely increase the ORP of the water and it would still decompose to oxygen and water.
> 
> As long it was a very controlled release there shouldn't be too many problems.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Yeah, I’ve not used one either - I always assumed that it generated the O2 in isolation, and then cunningly diffused that into the water column. I feel somewhat cheated that it’s essentially simply a leaking bottle lol (albeit a controlled leak) - very easy to DIY anyway, and 6% H2O2 is as cheap as chips with a 5 litre food grade bottle at <£15 off Amazon.

What I can’t seem to find anywhere, from folks using either this or the Twinstar, are any measurement to track any changes in the DO.

Also I don’t fully understand the full scope of the benefits of the increased DO. I follow that is obviously of benefit shrimp and fish, I also get that it could boost the health and activity of the micro-biological colonies in the tank and filter.

I could also see that it might inhibit algae - though I must admit I don’t fully understand why that is the case. Sure in nature you typically see less algae in bodies of water with presumably higher DO, than in bodies of water with less DO (stream vs lakes) - excluding those cases where the DO results from the photosynthesis of an algae infestation - though I’m sure that’s a gross oversimplification. 

What I can’t logically follow though, is the potential benefit of higher DO for the plants directly - given reports of better plant health and increased growth?

Though we normally take it as a given that plants are net O2 contributors in a planted tank during photosynthesis, do they actually benefit from the O2 being fully saturated vs partially saturated during that period?


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Wookii said:


> What I can’t seem to find anywhere, from folks using either this or the Twinstar, are any measurement to track any changes in the DO.


The issue is really the cost of the DO meters, they are  simple to use, and have easy calibration etc, but they are a very considerable investment. You can <"use pH as a proxy of the CO2/O2 ratio">, but you would still need an O2 meter to give you O2 values for the differing pH values. You would also need some measure of dKH, again you could use conductivity measurement as a proxy. The last thing is you would need to know would be temperature and atmospheric pressure. 





Wookii said:


> Also I don’t fully understand the full scope of the benefits of the increased DO. I follow that is obviously of benefit shrimp and fish, I also get that it could boost the health and activity of the micro-biological colonies in the tank and filter.


It is really back to what sort of fish you keep. If you keep marine reef tank, or have Tanganyikan "surge zone" cichlids, then high oxygen levels are an unalloyed good thing, after that you are much more into  a "shades of grey" world, there is some further discussion in <"Redox- Why don't we..">.

Even with oxygen, you can definitely have too much of a good thing. The very high oxygen levels you can get in eutrophic conditions with <"still water and abundant phytoplankton"> are likely to cause damage to fish, and they are something that they have to avoid in intensive aquaculture. Once you get past about <"150% saturation"> damage to fish gills etc is likely.  This is the same issue with an over-dose of any strong oxidiser. 





Wookii said:


> What I can’t logically follow though, is the potential benefit of higher DO for the plants directly - given reports of better plant health and increased growth?


That is an interesting question, the answer would be that high oxygen levels are likely to make uptake of CO2 more difficult, so presumably any benefits are because there is lessened biofilm on the plant leaves.





Wookii said:


> Though we normally take it as a given that plants are net O2 contributors in a planted tank during photosynthesis, do they actually benefit from the O2 being fully saturated vs partially saturated during that period?


Not in terms of photosynthesis. Most  aquatic plants are <"C3" plants>, and photosynthesis is inhibited at high oxygen levels (by the confusingly called photorespiration). Photorespiration doesn't effect C4 plants (I'm not aware of any aquatic ones of these) or CAM plants (Isoetids are CAM plants, but other than that it is mainly succulents).

cheers Darrel


----------



## RisingSun

Just got the chihiros doctor and it wants me to adjust the "capacity selection" based on the TDS.  As far as I can tell, the higher "capacity selection" just makes it run more often.  Any reason I have to follow this chart or can I just set it to the most frequent level?


----------



## Mark Slater

I've been doing some research on this just recently after an outbreak of Algae in both my tanks - probably caused by increased nitrate in tap water just recently

Ok so here's how I think its all working...

Electrolysis of water basically splits water into Hydrogen and Oxygen (we've all done that at school)

Whilst the Hydrogen bubbles off to the surface the oxygen does the same but some dissovles en route very much like carbon dioxide does.

ALSO produced is a small amount of H2O2 - it's a side effect of electrolysis.

So now we get to the stage of understaning the benefits

Oygen is an obvious benefit dissolved in the water
Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2) --- well here's an explanation of what this does  



NOTE: using this product in Salt Water or even Brackish water is dangerous because the electrolysis of salted water - Salt being NaCl (did that at school as well ?)  also splits into Sodium and CHLORINE - Free chlorine in your tank is not a good idea

Also note that the H2O2 split into a Hydroxyl Radical (see the video) will kill most bacteria - this is why you don't want to run the device for too long, it will start to affect your filters

Hope this helps - and I've posted a picture of a test unit I made for a few pounds with two carbon plates..


----------



## Sammy Islam

Whats the best way to clean the disc? I have been using my chihiros doctor for 2 weeks and there is already white stuff on the disc, i assume it's calcium? It definitely isn't working as well as it did on day 1, I'd say bubble output has reduced by atleast half. 

I tried to clean my disc using some "kilrock" solution that i found in the kitchen, i added a capful to a large mug of hot water and left the disc in for 10mins until it stopped fizzing, then left it in some dechlorinated water for a bit before putting it back in the tank. It has definitely cleaned the disc as there is not any white residue, but i wouldn't say it's made it perform better or like it originally did. 

Anybody successfully cleaned the disc and had it output bubbles like a new disc would? 

Thanks


----------



## Witcher

dw1305 said:


> We think it is a nano bubble generator as well, these very small bubbles are very persistent in the water column, have antimicrobial properties and <"a patent that covers them">.



Does it means it also kills the bacteria we need in the tank?


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Witcher said:


> Does it means it also kills the bacteria we need in the tank?


It will kill some of them, but because the nitrifying micro-organisms are mainly embedded in biofilms in the substrate, in the filter, in the rhizosphere etc it will have a limited effect. 

I'd have to say I'm a <"Twinstar agnostic">, but other people swear by (or at) them. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Witcher

dw1305 said:


> I'd have to say I'm a <"Twinstar agnostic">, but other people swear by (or at) them.



That picture tells everything about it, thanks!


----------



## Sanqhar

Haven't read through all 46 pages of this thread so apologies if this have been covered before.
I found this video today:



Appears a simple cheap substitute.

tom


----------



## Ed Wiser

Joey video I will move on.


----------



## Zeus.

Ed Wiser said:


> Joey video I will move on.



Son is a fan of his, as for me I don't bother with him


----------



## jaypeecee

dw1305 said:


> The problem is that you can't really test it, or any other similar bit of kit.



Hi Folks,

OK, I'm almost seven years late on this topic! But, I'd noticed these contraptions in some people's tanks recently. So, I tried to find out what on earth they were supposed to do. I'm still not entirely clear about that as the manufacturer's website didn't help. I spotted the comment by @dw1305 above and some people have suggested that it's an ozonizer. That seems unlikely to me but, if it is, I would expect it to increase the ORP of the water. It would be interesting to try this. I have an ORP probe (currently in use) but I'm not willing to purchase the Twinstar gizmo. But, I've only read the first three pages of a 46-page thread. Perhaps I'll find that someone's already 'been there, done that, got the T-shirt'!

JPC


----------



## Wookii

jaypeecee said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> OK, I'm almost seven years late on this topic! But, I'd noticed these contraptions in some people's tanks recently. So, I tried to find out what on earth they were supposed to do. I'm still not entirely clear about that as the manufacturer's website didn't help. I spotted the comment by @dw1305 above and some people have suggested that it's an ozonizer. That seems unlikely to me but, if it is, I would expect it to increase the ORP of the water. It would be interesting to try this. I have an ORP probe (currently in use) but I'm not willing to purchase the Twinstar gizmo. But, I've only read the first three pages of a 46-page thread. Perhaps I'll find that someone's already 'been there, done that, got the T-shirt'!
> 
> JPC



I don't believe it generates Ozone. It's a very simple device with two fine parallel stainless steel mesh plates with a gap between, and uses electrolysis, I believe, to split water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen. The name 'steriliser' given to these products is a bit of a misnomer, I don't they are not sterilising anything. What they are doing I believe, is increasing the DO levels in the water, which increases the ORP of the water as you say. I think that contributes to an environment that is less appealing to algal growth. I'll let others with a biology background suggest precisely why the increased DO levels might be inhibitive to algae.

Anecdotally I have one in my tank, and the only two times I have had minor algae outbreaks (one BBA and one Staghorn) is when I had inadvertently turned the Twinstar unit off for a week or more (cutting the power to it resets it, and you need to press the button on the side to set it going again). Then again, that could be sheer coincidence, so as is often the case with these things, YMMV.


----------



## akwarium

It looks like electrolysis, (mostly because it is)   there is a very simple test for it, but that might give people ideas that might be fun and therefor not necessarily safe...
Instead, look at al the thing, how it is made,  how it works, how all the diy copy's work ..... and there is only one possible conclusion.

Of course it is much nicer to look at it a mysterious machine that might involve magic and mermaids...


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 
@jaypeecee we think it is nano-bubble generator, there is <"patent for these">. There is also some discussion of why the electrodes <"may differ in price and efficiency">, and why water hardness might be relevant to their working life

I don't like the white colour, but <"time is a great healer">.




 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Wookii

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> @jaypeecee we think it is nano-bubble generator, there is <"patent for these">. There is also some discussion of why the electrodes <"may differ in price and efficiency">, and why water hardness might be relevant to their working life
> 
> I don't like the white colour, but <"time is a great healer">.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cheers Darrel



I didn’t have that level of patience! Lol


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





akwarium said:


> Of course it is much nicer to look at it a mysterious machine that might involve magic and mermaids...





Wookii said:


> Anecdotally I have one in my tank, and the only two times I have had minor algae outbreaks (one BBA and one Staghorn) is when I had inadvertently turned the Twinstar unit off for a week or more (cutting the power to it resets it, and you need to press the button on the side to set it going again). Then again, that could be sheer coincidence, so as is often the case with these things,


That is the real problem, we don't know why it works (if it does) and <"we may be barking up the wrong tree"> when we make conjectures about how it works. 

As they've been around for a while, and people are still using them, my guess is that they do something positive.

cheers Darrel


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi Folks,

My best guess is that the _Twinstar Steriliser*_ adopts a similar approach to the _OF Hydra Depurator**_. Somewhere here on UKAPS, I seem to recall that I did a brief review of this _OF_ product. What these products aim to do is to create hydroxyl radicals, which are denoted as '·OH'. Note the dot. It seems that there is a lot of interest in something called 'Advanced Oxidation Processes', AOPs***. By using a matrix of wires (sometimes coated with titanium dioxide) or parallel plates with some secret ingredient in-between and then applying a dc voltage, it would appear that hydroxyl radicals are produced. I believe this principle is now used in some room air purifiers.

Returning to the _OF Hydra Depurator**_, it didn't do what it was supposed to do and I returned mine to MA.

* https://twinstareu.com/steriliser/

** https://www.yihufish.com/products/f...ydro-pure-technology/hydra-aquatic-depurator/

*** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_oxidation_process

JPC


----------



## Andy Thurston

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> @jaypeecee we think it is nano-bubble generator, there is <"patent for these">. There is also some discussion of why the electrodes <"may differ in price and efficiency">, and why water hardness might be relevant to their working life
> 
> I don't like the white colour, but <"time is a great healer">.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cheers Darrel


love this pic. If this thing is so good at preventing algae... Why is it green


----------



## Andy Thurston

Ps good tank management will solve all your problems


----------



## Wookii

Andy Thurston said:


> Ps good tank management will solve all your problems



I’ll remember that when I next meet with the bank manager!


----------



## Andy Thurston

Wookii said:


> I’ll remember that when I next meet with the bank manager!


----------



## Andrew Butler

Wookii said:


> I didn’t have that level of patience!


Hi Jay,
should I assume you painted yours black and something like heatshrink around the cable? - I very nearly done this few times but had thoughts of quite the effects would be come bleaching time.
Have you tried bleaching yet and if so I assume the outcome was good?
Also how did you do it? - I'd masking tape and spraying the main piece in mind along with heatshrink along the cable but I know it needs one that would give quite a size ratio of original to finish etc.
Any input gratefully received.


----------



## jaypeecee

Andrew Butler said:


> Hi Jay,
> should I assume you painted yours black and something like heatshrink around the cable? - I very nearly done this few times but had thoughts of quite the effects would be come bleaching time.
> Have you tried bleaching yet and if so I assume the outcome was good?
> Also how did you do it? - I'd masking tape and spraying the main piece in mind along with heatshrink along the cable but I know it needs one that would give quite a size ratio of original to finish etc.
> Any input gratefully received.



Hi @Andrew Butler 

There appears to be a misunderstanding. I don't own a _Twinstar_ thingummyjig. To what are you referring, Andrew? Have I misled you?

JPC


----------



## Wookii

Andrew Butler said:


> Hi Jay,
> should I assume you painted yours black and something like heatshrink around the cable? - I very nearly done this few times but had thoughts of quite the effects would be come bleaching time.
> Have you tried bleaching yet and if so I assume the outcome was good?
> Also how did you do it? - I'd masking tape and spraying the main piece in mind along with heatshrink along the cable but I know it needs one that would give quite a size ratio of original to finish etc.
> Any input gratefully received.



Not ‘Jay’ but . . . 

If you take a sharp knife and slip in in between the top and bottom plastic covers, they simply pop off leaving the two metal mesh plates - then it was simply a matter of spraying them with some black paint, clicking them back together, and adding the heat shrink. Job done!

I don’t intend to use any bleach on mine, I’ve only had a little bit of BBA appear on it once, and I just misted some Excel on it and the shrimp munched it all off by the next day.

I may need to take it out and give it a citric acid bath to remove any limescale off the mesh at some point, though I’ve see no signs of limescale so far despite my hard water, but I can’t imagine that will have any effect on the paint.


----------



## Andrew Butler

jaypeecee said:


> Have I misled you?


Nope, sorry Jay - saw your name in amongst something and it stuck in my head 

I'll try again........
Hey @Wookii 


Andrew Butler said:


> should I assume you painted yours black and something like heatshrink around the cable? - I very nearly done this few times but had thoughts of quite the effects would be come bleaching time.
> Have you tried bleaching yet and if so I assume the outcome was good?
> Also how did you do it? - I'd masking tape and spraying the main piece in mind along with heatshrink along the cable but I know it needs one that would give quite a size ratio of original to finish etc.
> Any input gratefully received.





Wookii said:


> If you take a sharp knife and slip in in between the top and bottom plastic covers, they simply pop off leaving the two metal mesh plates - then it was simply a matter of spraying them with some black paint, clicking them back together, and adding the heat shrink. Job done!
> 
> I don’t intend to use any bleach on mine, I’ve only had a little bit of BBA appear on it once, and I just misted some Excel on it and the shrimp munched it all off by the next day.
> 
> I may need to take it out and give it a citric acid bath to remove any limescale off the mesh at some point, though I’ve see no signs of limescale so far despite my hard water, but I can’t imagine that will have any effect on the paint.


Thanks for the tips. 
What paint/primer did you use out of interest? - I'd Plastikote in mind before.

I'm not going to stir up the cleaning discussion as I do believe you to be following the best method but was told by a more official source once that it would damage electrodes and to use dilute bleach. Not looking for any further input from anyone with regard to this!


----------



## Wookii

Andrew Butler said:


> Nope, sorry Jay - saw your name in amongst something and it stuck in my head
> 
> I'll try again........
> Hey @Wookii
> 
> 
> Thanks for the tips.
> What paint/primer did you use out of interest? - I'd Plastikote in mind before.
> 
> I'm not going to stir up the cleaning discussion as I do believe you to be following the best method but was told by a more official source once that it would damage electrodes and to use dilute bleach. Not looking for any further input from anyone with regard to this!



As I often do, I referred to what Reefers do in their tanks since they seem to do a lot more DIY than us planted tank people do, and their tank inhabitants are often a lot more delicate. The common recommendation was for Krylon Fusion spray paint.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00176TH8C/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_UzxSEbVJSRTMC

The double bonus was that it requires no sanding or priming to use - just clean the item and start spraying - and is known to be aquarium safe once cured. It’s also touch dry after about 10 minutes making it very easy to work with.

As for the cleaning, a critic acid solution should be just as, if not more gentle than bleach. We do eat it regularly in fruit after all.


----------



## Sammy Islam

Wookii said:


> As I often do, I referred to what Reefers do in their tanks since they seem to do a lot more DIY than us planted tank people do, and their tank inhabitants are often a lot more delicate. The common recommendation was for Krylon Fusion spray paint.
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00176TH8C/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_UzxSEbVJSRTMC
> 
> The double bonus was that it requires no sanding or priming to use - just clean the item and start spraying - and is known to be aquarium safe once cured. It’s also touch dry after about 10 minutes making it very easy to work with.
> 
> As for the cleaning, a critic acid solution should be just as, if not more gentle than bleach. We do eat it regularly in fruit after all.



I've used the chihiros doctor and the twinstar, mainly for oxygen purposes.

In my very hard water the chihiros discs lasted 3 weeks before output dropping by like 70%, even after cleaning the discs never performed well again and needed to be replaced.

Where as the twinstar disc seems to perform well and the disc seems to last much longer. I've had the disc in for 2-3 months and have only cleaned it of limescale twice so far. It still performs like it did the day i bought it.

I've been cleaning it with citric acid, 500-600ml warm tap water with 0.5tsp citric acid for 30mins seems to work well and gets rid of 95% of visible lime scale and it still works great.


----------



## jaypeecee

Wookii said:


> The common recommendation was for Krylon Fusion spray paint.
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00176TH8C/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_UzxSEbVJSRTMC



Hi @Wookii 

The picture on the can gives the impression that it comes out of the can giving a camouflage effect. Now, that would be impressive!

JPC


----------



## LondonDragon

This is probably the longest chat ever! 7 years in the making haha  What is the official conclusion?


----------



## jaypeecee

LondonDragon said:


> This is probably the longest chat ever! 7 years in the making haha  What is the official conclusion?



Hi Paulo / @LondonDragon 

Take your pick? It wouldn't be difficult to measure ORP, as I suggested. Or, oxygen level. I'd be happy to run some simple tests but I don't have one of these things. It's not rocket science.

JPC


----------



## Sanqhar

I like the idea of disguising it in a model of the Enterprise NC1701. 

tom


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





LondonDragon said:


> This is probably the longest chat ever! 7 years in the making.......What is the official conclusion?


That it has definitely been a very long lasting thread? After that possibly we are struggling.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Tim Harrison

It's a relatively cheap oxygen generator ?


----------



## jaypeecee

Tim Harrison said:


> It's a relatively cheap oxygen generator ?



This product is marketed as a _sterilizer_ and the choice of this word is all-important. According to the Cambridge English Dictionary, a sterilizer is "a machine for making things completely clean and _free from bacteria_". Oxygenation alone will not achieve this because there is a limit to how much oxygen water can hold - typically 8 ppm. In order to sterilize the tank water, ozone and/or UV-C are the methods in normal use.

JPC


----------



## Tim Harrison

I think it's more to do with the principle and application of microbubble and nanobubble technology for sterilisation @jaypeecee, rather than just O2 levels per se.


----------



## jaypeecee

Tim Harrison said:


> I think it's more to do with the principle and application of microbubble and nanobubble technology for sterilisation @jaypeecee, rather than just O2 levels per se.



Hi @Tim Harrison 

Many thanks for that.

JPC


----------



## rebel

How long does it last before you need to replace the discs etc?


----------



## Tim Harrison

In a nutshell I think it depends how hard your water is. Once you start having to rid it of limescale build up its days are numbered.
IME the Twinstar reactor lasts a lot longer than the Chihiros one, that is if you twin it with a Twinstar brain.
The Twinstar reactor lasts around 6 months to a year and the Chirhiros a couple of months. Nanobubble output on the Twinstar seems a little better too.


----------



## X3NiTH

I’ll say it again -

Pulse Electrocoagulation.

The Twinstar Brain that Tim mentions is currently still a patented ‘Black Box’ and until someone hooks it up to an oscilloscope it will remain that way. If someone does hook it up then we would be able to determine the current reversal period and the pulse timings!

I’ve not linked any articles on pulse electrocoagulation because there are a multitude of them some come with patents and all are a variation on the other, the most patented part is the Black Box for the current reversal and pulse timings because without that it’s just electrolysis.


----------



## jaypeecee

X3NiTH said:


> I’ll say it again -
> 
> Pulse Electrocoagulation.
> 
> The Twinstar Brain that Tim mentions is currently still a patented ‘Black Box’ and until someone hooks it up to an oscilloscope it will remain that way. If someone does hook it up then we would be able to determine the current reversal period and the pulse timings!
> 
> I’ve not linked any articles on pulse electrocoagulation because there are a multitude of them some come with patents and all are a variation on the other, the most patented part is the Black Box for the current reversal and pulse timings because without that it’s just electrolysis.



Hi @X3NiTH

I dare say that there will be others, like me, who haven't waded through all 48 pages of this thread. But, I guess you've mentioned the term 'pulse electrocoagulation' before? This is a new one on me but, as I don't work in the wastewater management industry, I'm not surprised. A lot of new ideas are gaining traction here.

I currently don't possess an oscilloscope and, as I'm now retired, I can't just borrow one from work. The magnitude of the current would probably need to be measured too. But, I would question the value of doing this on the basis of the following comment:


Tim Harrison said:


> Once you start having to rid it of limescale build up its days are numbered.



In other words, these current products are simply not fit-for-purpose. If Twinstar, Chihiros or anyone else is going to make a worthwhile aquarium version of this product, it seems like a lot more research needs to be done. Otherwise, these products will simply lose credibility.

JPC


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





jaypeecee said:


> But, I guess you've mentioned the term 'pulse electrocoagulation' before? This is a new one on me but, as I don't work in the wastewater management industry, I'm not surprised.


Have a look at <"Reconstituters.....">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Ash_bash

I brought the cheaper Chihiros one and its working a treat so far,  3 weeks into a new scape and not a strand of algae, not even had to clean the glass, a world apart from my first set up, wish I could do a side by side comparison with 2 tanks


----------



## Deano3

I am thinking of buying the twinstar nano+ model for my aquascaper 900 anyone use this model and find it helpful ?

Curently have the smaller m5 and seems to have worked well for my current scape.

Thanks dean

Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk


----------



## Wookii

Deano3 said:


> I am thinking of buying the twinstar nano+ model for my aquascaper 900 anyone use this model and find it helpful ?
> 
> Curently have the smaller m5 and seems to have worked well for my current scape.
> 
> Thanks dean
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk



I use the Nano+ on my 60 litre - I like it to be honest, I think it’s useful for maintaining high levels of DO (Though I haven’t been able to actually measure that yet)


----------



## Deano3

Wookii said:


> I use the Nano+ on my 60 litre - I like it to be honest, I think it’s useful for maintaining high levels of DO (Though I haven’t been able to actually measure that yet)


Thanks mate so you think hopefully helps to keep oxygen levels up and hopefully prevent algae ?

Think i will get one as i have used one on my 45p and havnt had many problems so hopefully helps.

Dean

Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk


----------



## Driftless

I have 2 Nano's and 2 Nano +'s in operation and I have had to replace my first reactor after about 6+ months.  I have not checked for oxygen levels but I think it makes a difference with algae and I will be adding them to future tanks.

This is a long thread!


----------



## Tyeman aquatics

I'm so confused can someone tell me the difference between a twinstar nano and yota? This thread has to many pages for me to try find the answer


----------



## Wookii

Tyeman aquatics said:


> I'm so confused can someone tell me the difference between a twinstar nano and yota? This thread has to many pages for me to try find the answer



I have both the Nano+ and the Yotta+ - the units are physically identical, and use the M9 'reactor'. I suspect the only difference between them is the firmware, which presumably on the Yotta+ switches the current on for longer durations or with greater frequency to match the larger quoted tank volumes.


----------



## Tyeman aquatics

Wookii said:


> I have both the Nano+ and the Yotta+ - the units are physically identical, and use the M9 'reactor'. I suspect the only difference between them is the firmware, which presumably on the Yotta+ switches the current on for longer durations or with greater frequency to match the larger quoted tank volumes.



But aren't they both rated for upto 250L...are they both made by twinstar?


----------



## Wookii

Tyeman aquatics said:


> But aren't they both rated for upto 250L...are they both made by twinstar?



No the Nano+ is rated up to 250 litres with three settings for 50-100 litres, up to 180 litres and up to 250 litres. 

The Yotta+ is rated up to 450 litres with settings for 30-50 litres, up to 200 litres and up to 450 litres.

Yes, they are both made by Twinstar.


----------



## RisingSun

been using my twinstar m9 for 13 months now.  Recently soaked it in vinegar as there was limescale on 1/3 of it.  Output has faded by about 50%.  My water is very hard. About ~300 TDS after a water change and goes up to 500 in between. The chihiros wouldn't run at all. 

I did seem to get less dust algae in the last year but it's anecdotal + there can be other confounding variables (I reduced nutrient dosing, increased light intensity, reduced photoperiod) so who knows if it's actually doing anything. I'll probably buy another m9 reactor in a couple months to replace it.  Oxygen can't hurt and I like the mist ∘˚˳°∘°(˘▼˘ )∘˚˳°∘°


----------



## Zeus.

RisingSun said:


> Recently soaked it in vinegar as there was limescale on 1/3 of it. Output has faded by about 50%.



Normally descale my reactors every WC, glass of hot water and a couple of teaspoons of citric acid 10 min soak and done, keeps them going as the reactors do get a fair amount of scale deposits. Since I have been doing it at WC the reactors seem to last much longer.


----------



## ForestDave

RisingSun said:


> been using my twinstar m9 for 13 months now.  Recently soaked it in vinegar as there was limescale on 1/3 of it.  Output has faded by about 50%.  My water is very hard. About ~300 TDS after a water change and goes up to 500 in between. The chihiros wouldn't run at all.
> 
> I did seem to get less dust algae in the last year but it's anecdotal + there can be other confounding variables (I reduced nutrient dosing, increased light intensity, reduced photoperiod) so who knows if it's actually doing anything. I'll probably buy another m9 reactor in a couple months to replace it.  Oxygen can't hurt and I like the mist ∘˚˳°∘°(˘▼˘ )∘˚˳°∘°
> 
> View attachment 163855


Your tank looks great! 
Does that terrapin live in there all the time or did you plop him in for the photoshoot?


----------



## X3NiTH

I would say that is its permanent residence judging by the mangled Stauro below, I’ll assume this spot is its sunken perch!


----------



## Sammy Islam

Zeus. said:


> Normally descale my reactors every WC, glass of hot water and a couple of teaspoons of citric acid 10 min soak and done, keeps them going as the reactors do get a fair amount of scale deposits. Since I have been doing it at WC the reactors seem to last much longer.



I've had the same twinstar reactor for a year now and it still works like new, the chihiros doctor reactor barely lasted a month.

I clean mine every 3 weeks when there is some limescale on it. A mug of warm water with 1.5tsp of citric acid for about half hour while i do maintenance. I think it will still be good for a while, so i will report back when it "dies".


----------



## Dogtemple

Could anyone tell me the on/off frequency of a Twinstar nano please?


----------



## LondonDragon

Dogtemple said:


> Could anyone tell me the on/off frequency of a Twinstar nano please?


It's supposed to detect and automate the frequency to your tanks water/condition!


----------



## Wookii

LondonDragon said:


> It's supposed to detect and automate the frequency to your tanks water/condition!



I don't think they have any sensors on them Paulo, there are only two DC wires running to the electrolysis plates - they just run on a pre-determined schedule, that as far as I can tell has increased frequency when you first start them up, and reduces the frequency over time. That schedule also appears to 'reset' when they lose power of you cycle the setting on the control unit.


----------



## LondonDragon

Wookii said:


> I don't think they have any sensors on them Paulo,


My bad, thought that was the whole point of them! Mine as been in its box for months now lol


----------



## Wookii

LondonDragon said:


> My bad, thought that was the whole point of them! Mine as been in its box for months now lol



I've come to a similar conclusion on my high tech - I feel it produces enough DO on its own now that the Twinstar isn't needed. I do think it helps on tank start up though, and I also think it helps on my low tech, as in both situations they don't naturally max out the DO.


----------



## LondonDragon

Wookii said:


> I've come to a similar conclusion on my high tech - I feel it produces enough DO on its own now that the Twinstar isn't needed. I do think it helps on tank start up though, and I also think it helps on my low tech, as in both situations they don't naturally max out the DO.


Might stick it on the low tech cube I have then at least make some use of it


----------



## Wolf6

Just curious, anyone here use these on larger tanks? I've seen a vid of someone using 2  in a larger tank, but no explanation how/why that would work. I know their effect hasnt been proven, nor explained why it would work, but I've used them in my tanks for a while now and do believe in a small positive effect, and it allows me to track flow very well which to me is a huge pro. Also the mist just looks cool, still doesnt get old after all these years


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @Wolf6

When I first stumbled across the _Twinstar Controller_, it appeared to be nothing other than 'Snake Oil'. I'm now inclined to think that it may produce what are known as Reactive Oxygen Species. If anyone owns an ORP/Redox meter, I suspect it would show an increased (more positive) ORP reading when the _Twinstar Controller_ is switched on. If I'm right, it may help to combat growth of Cyanobacteria (aka BGA). Cyano have been shown to have a high sensitivity to what is known as 'oxidative stress'. As you will gather, I do not own a _Twinstar Controller_.

JPC


----------



## Matti

I had a twinstar on my tank and  removed it. No change what so ever.


----------



## jaypeecee

Matti said:


> I had a twinstar on my tank and removed it. No change what so ever.


Hi @Matti

Out of interest, what changes were you expecting to see?

JPC


----------



## Matti

I was expecting to see some algae growth, nothing happened. Except for the BBA that was there already.

Mattu


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## Savi_g

Can I just say, I work in a warehouse environment and for ozone machines to be effective they have to be massive.  The effect from one the size of a tv isn’t effective in a room say 5mx5m. As for one submerged in water?  I could see it being more effective but I doubt you’d see clear results.  Just my opinion of course but I know they have to be huge in a industrial capacity to be effective in which case they can be very dangerous.  They create a layer of air in the room that’s mostly c03 which can cause breathing problems, dizziness and so on.


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## Driftless

Wolf6 said:


> Just curious, anyone here use these on larger tanks? I've seen a vid of someone using 2  in a larger tank, but no explanation how/why that would work. I know their effect hasnt been proven, nor explained why it would work, but I've used them in my tanks for a while now and do believe in a small positive effect, and it allows me to track flow very well which to me is a huge pro. Also the mist just looks cool, still doesnt get old after all these years


I have two Nano+'s in one of Discus tanks I am not sure if they make a difference but I like the added O2 in the tank because Discus are sensitive to CO2 and the Discus water is warm which lowers O2.


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## foxfish

Ah sorry about that but I did post it 8 years ago!


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## LondonDragon

foxfish said:


> Ah sorry about that but I did post it 8 years ago!


I have updated the link


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## enb141

Wolf6 said:


> Just curious, anyone here use these on larger tanks? I've seen a vid of someone using 2  in a larger tank, but no explanation how/why that would work. I know their effect hasnt been proven, nor explained why it would work, but I've used them in my tanks for a while now and do believe in a small positive effect, and it allows me to track flow very well which to me is a huge pro. Also the mist just looks cool, still doesnt get old after all these years



I used the Chihiros in my 75 Gallon (283 litter) tank, and yes, now I want to use a Twinstar because it really helped me, now that I don't have it, I got some green water, with the chihiros the green water was gone, also my danios were swimming more lower (deeper) in the tank, without the chihiros they are at the top of the tank.


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## MichaelJ

enb141 said:


> without the chihiros they are at the top of the tank.


If you add the Chihiros back just make sure your danios wear tinfoil hats! 

Cheers,
Michael


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## Jezalinko

Having read bits of this I feel so much better. I purchased sight unseen a 2nd hand Twinstar Nano+ claimed to have had 6 months use. Didn’t run it before cleaning with double strength 8% cleaning vinegar for 2-3hrs. Thinking the vinegar was too strong as cleaning produced a nice clump of silicone. After rinse it  producd pretty bubbles for a bit & then just didn’t. Light on  different settings blinks for a minute then goes solid with no change.
Anyway moral of my story is I feel better because reading your posts I realised it’s not just me that suffers from “I’ll just try this it’ll be fine…” 🙄
So thanks for that 👍


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## Sam66

I've not read this whole thread and not even sure what they do but I stumbled across some DIY twinstar prints on Thingiverse whilst looking for something else: Search Thingiverse - Thingiverse

Might be worth a look if you have a 3D printer and want to make one.


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## Tankless

Stu Worrall said:


> just to note make sure you use the correct ratio of vinegar to water as mentioned above.  I used too much vinegar in mine and killed the probe



Whats the correct ratio? I just bought a used twinstar nano plus. Want to clean the existing reactor and use it for a few months before I replace it with a new reactor.


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## Stu Worrall

that's a very good question!  I'm afraid its been so long since I wrote that Ive forgotten!  Ill do some searching and report back


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## Stu Worrall

Twinstar Nano + Issue
					

Hi, After changing filter and glass wear setup the Nano doesn't appear to be working, where is best to have this situated?  Also how often do people clean there's and do you use the cleaner solution from Twinstar?



					www.ukaps.org


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