# First setup tinkering



## GlassWalker (7 Jul 2014)

I got a used CO2 kit bundle over the weekend, and have installed it in my tank now, but wanted to check some details.

Kit is as follows, connected in order listed using CO2 safe hose:
FE
Bioplast CO2 Regulator
Aquamedic solenoid valve (plugged in without timer for test)
Check valve
Dennerle Maxi-Flipper CO2 diffuser

The regulator instructions say the pressure out from source should be 60 something (forgot units?). When I connected FE it was just over 60 so that's looking good. It also says to set the working pressure to 0.3, where I had my first problem. It seemed to produce a few bubbles then stop, no matter how far I turn the output side adjust. After a bit of tinkering of the main regulator control, I heard a *dink* noise and gas was flowing. I presume the regulator may be sticking?

With flow, I further tinkered with out output, and found it impossible to set it on 0.3. Instead I settled on 0.4 and on an initial adjust got about 15 bubble per minute out of it for starters. I left it like this for a couple hours but didn't see much change in the way of tank pH, less than a 0.1 unit drop. I haven't yet looked at what rate I should be running for my tank size, and haven't installed the drop checker either.

As it was getting late I thought I'd tried stopping it before lights out. First I unplugged the solenoid, but even after I did that, I saw the occasional bubble still come out. Is this normal? Far less than before, but not zero. At this point I turned off the FE, and even then I still saw the odd bubble. Is this just from left over pressure? Or is there something else going on?

For now it is still connected but disabled until I have more confidence in it working correctly and at the right level.


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## GlassWalker (9 Jul 2014)

Still having teething troubles... after leaving it off overnight, I saw the working pressure had crept up to a couple of bar even with the FE supply off. Could that be due to residual in the system? Of course, when I opened the solenoid it rushed out pretty fast and dropped back to close to where I set after some time.


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## Mr. Teapot (9 Jul 2014)

Hi I'm sure a more experienced member will be along shortly but here's my take on your CO2 issues:


GlassWalker said:


> working pressure had crept up to a couple of bar


You shouldn't see much creep on the working pressure especially not a couple of bar increase (30psi). Indicates a problem somewhere.



GlassWalker said:


> tank pH, less than a 0.1 unit drop


You really need to aim for a 1 point drop before your photoperiod starts. This gives an indication of how much you need to massively increase your injection rate. 260 litres needs a lot of CO2 to see a good pH drop.



GlassWalker said:


> Dennerle Maxi-Flipper CO2 diffuser


Flippy diffusers are very inefficient and I'd change it for either an in-line, reactor or ceramic in-tank diffuser.


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## GlassWalker (10 Jul 2014)

I got an inline diffuser too, but haven't installed it yet as obviously it will involve cutting hoses on the external filter. And no, I don't fancy another new loop just for that by itself.

Still seeing much oddness with the regulator so I'm starting to reach the conclusion it's knackered. I'll have another detailed look on the weekend but for now the system remains off.

Not worried about CO2 usage too much, as I've found a local source that does FE's a tenner a pop.


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## GlassWalker (3 Aug 2014)

I gave up on the old regulator and got a new one from CO2Art, and finally got around to installing it this morning. This is working great and I can change the pressure and bubble rate easily at will. This is the same setup as described above, apart from the regulator. Are regulators serviceable? Not necessarily by me, but just wondering if the faulty one has any residual value?

Now I need to set up an appropriate rate and timers. I need to re-read up on it all...

As a thought, I have a mains powered pH probe which I've calibrated in the past so I'm as confident as can be on its value. With that and CO2 tables, do I need to use a drop checker? I can measure my tank KH easily enough to a fraction of a degree.

And I'm still using the flippy. Still haven't connected up the inline diffuser... I am considering adding a new loop just for that, having said I wont in the past. I just don't want to mess with my existing filtration connections.


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## GlassWalker (7 Aug 2014)

I've been playing with my setup and wanted to check some behaviour I'm seeing. I'm using a dual stage regulator from CO2Art. When I first set it up on Sunday, I put the low side pressure at 2 bar, and adjusted the flow to 1 bubble a second for testing for a bit, before I turned it off by solenoid.

On another evening, I plugged the solenoid back in and... nothing happened. I waited a bit, no bubbles. The low side pressure was a bit below 2 bar now, so I turned it back up to 2. Still nothing. I tweaked the other valve, and after a little surge of bubbles I dialled it down again. Since this was in the evening not long before lights out, I discontinued flow and left it once more.

On yet another evening, and same happened again. The low side was a little below 2, so I had to turn it up. Nothing was coming out bubble wise. Again I tweaked the other valve and got flow again. This time I tried setting it a bit faster, about 2 to 4 bubbles per second. I left it for a little, then turned it off.

This morning, I turned it on... there was a delay, but I had bubbles without further adjustment. I will need to observe this some more, but has it settled now? Why was it varying before? On the bubble rate, was it too low, and needed a bit more pressure/speed for something to happen? I haven't looked at what bubble rate I need at all yet, which will be a job for the weekend when I'm around to monitor it more carefully.


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## ian_m (8 Aug 2014)

Rather than being distracted by pH and exact bps values, what does your drop checker say ? Drop checkers, for beginners/starters, are far superior as they stop you being distracted by the "Matrix" of digital pH numbers....

Set bps to get drop checker green by lights on. If you have no fish, ramp it up, yellow by lights on is good.

My drop checker the other day...whoops I have fish, but they seemed ok...


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## GlassWalker (8 Aug 2014)

I'm not at the drop checker stage yet! My first concern is that the system is operating correctly at all. If I'm getting irregular flow, that needs to be sorted first.

I now believe what I saw was due to the pressure needing to build up again after being off for some time. At low gas rates, this will take longer, so I thought (incorrectly) nothing was happening in the time I was looking at it. At higher rates, the time is shorter, so it looks like it works as it should. Does this sound plausible?

Picking my CO2 levels is a job for the weekend, when I should finally install a drop checker...


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## ian_m (8 Aug 2014)

In my experience irregular, unreliable, unrepeatable CO2 bps is due to the following:
- leak
- leak
- leak
Or did I mention a leak.

I have had leaks from every possible part of my system, each time CO2 was irregular, unreliable or unrepeatable it was due to a leak somewhere, despite me fooling myself it couldn't be. Once 100% leak free, even using a supposedly cheap regulator and cheap needle valve bps can be reliable & repeatedly set from anything to 1 bubble per 10 seconds to far too many to count.

I have had leaks from:
- Bubble counter plastic being attacked by CO2 and crazing.
- Bubble counter locking nuts cracking.
- One way valve leaking at seam.
- Leaking at bubble counter locking nut.
- Incorrectly assembling JBL bubble counter with seal incorrectly seated.

Not had a leak from regulator connection (probably as it is metal) and not had a leak from in line diffuser as used LSX thread sealant. Careful LSX will attack some plastics.

You need to dunk all your CO2 bits, even diffuser (if using) into a bucket of water, wiggle pipes etc and thoroughly check for leaks.

Once mine was sorted and no leaks, I reliably get about 100 days for the last four 2KG FE's I have used. Obviously with leaks and unreliable CO2 I got considerable less 60days and even once 23 days 

Oh, you are using proper CO2 proof tubing rather than air line ? CO2 will dissolve in silicone air line and attack other plastic air lines, again possibly leading to leaks.


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## GlassWalker (8 Aug 2014)

I have CO2 safe hoses, although they were bought used as part of an existing kit. Of that kit, I have replaced the regulator as I suspected the first one was really playing up, although given what I've seen since, I should retest it to make sure. I can CO2 more tanks later if it is still working.

Leak testing will be a job for the weekend.

I know it isn't the best, but I'm still testing with an in tank flipper. As such, the gas has to travel through a lot of hose and build up pressure before I see bubbles. If I were to install an inline bubble counter closer to the source, would that give visual indication faster?


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## ian_m (8 Aug 2014)

GlassWalker said:


> Dennerle Maxi-Flipper CO2 diffuser


Ever wondered why no one else here uses one of these ?...I think the silence says it all..

I also had control issues when I left monster lengths of piping. When I first set my stuff up I piped FE -> one way valve -> bubble counter with as short as was necessary, then the remainder of my 5 metres of CO2 tubing from bubble counter to inline diffuser (my thinking was so that I could move the diffuser if necessary, which is a bit pants as the inline diffuser is obviously in a fixed location, but obviously had in tank diffuser on the brain). However what happened was at switch on was bubble rate was quite high then over space of couple of minutes slowed down to almost stopping. Then there was a "burp" as diffuser released gas, bubbles/mist in the tank and bubble rate back up to very high, which then slowed down again....cycle repeating.

Cut final length of CO2 tubing to as short as necessary and CO2 went to constant controllable delivery. I assume the length of tubing was pressurising, releasing, pressurising releasing....


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## GlassWalker (8 Aug 2014)

Gotcha. I will try to get time to install that inline diffuser on weekend, which will allow much shorter tube lengths between everything.

As said, I'm mainly using the flipper for now as it is easier to install without butchering my external filter pipes, and I can easily see it working. I got the other bits for an inline bubble counter and diffuser, but they're more work to install.


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## ian_m (8 Aug 2014)

GlassWalker said:


> I can easily see it working


But as you have already stated "it doesn't work" as your messing around with your misleading pH pens proves.


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## GlassWalker (8 Aug 2014)

I think you're reading too far back then extrapolating too far forward. The bigger problems were with my original regulator which I still suspect as erratic, like maybe a valve is sticking. As I'm still new to this, I don't know the little quirks that largely goes unwritten.

I don't use a pH pen, but I have a calibrated lab style pH probe. Not a fiver off ebay job. As repeatedly said, I'm making sure the kit is functioning within expectations before I turn it up, and that may also including updating my expectations if they're incorrect. I'm not getting much pH drop as I know I haven't pumped any serious level of CO2 in yet. That is not a concern for now.


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## ian_m (8 Aug 2014)

GlassWalker said:


> That is not a concern for now.


Sorry, I am getting lost , what is the issue you require help & advice on, please ?


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## Andy Thurston (8 Aug 2014)

I found that with pressures below 2bar if there was any water in the co2 pipe, caused by a leak, it took a very long time to force that water out and get back to the same constant bubble rate i had the day before. Good quality check valves and a leak free system will cure this. I now run mine at 2.5bar with the new up inline and good check valves and don't see this problem anymore


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## GlassWalker (8 Aug 2014)

ian_m said:


> Sorry, I am getting lost , what is the issue you require help & advice on, please ?



My observation is that on the first couple of times I switched on the solenoid after a prolonged period off, I noticed the low side pressure was less than I had set it before (target 2 bar). I tweaked it back up on both occasions, and it seems to be staying there now. I was asking if that's normal.

I think I'm ok on the other things for now, and just need to get on with setting up the rest to test on the weekend.


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