# Mineralized top soil



## nayr88 (18 Dec 2012)

Hello people

I'm also a member on an American based forum, I've been having a little nose around a bit on there and have noticed the use of MTS as they say, not to be confused with Malaysian trumpet snail!

I'm sure people know of it already, but I'm intrigued as to why I've never come across a journal on here with people using it. I know it's a little long winded( wetting drying wetting drying ect) but the main guy who is pushing this stuff on said forum produces some cracking tanks. 

A few people doing this are actually coming up with some really healthy tanks and are claiming to never or very rarely dosing the water column.
NOW before I get gunned down I'm not claiming anything, I'm just throwing it out there as;
'how comes its not so popular' 
'Have you tried it' 
'How do you skin a corpse in a ditch'

Let meh know how that tickles you


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## Alastair (18 Dec 2012)

I've been on the same forum and notice its really popular and gives great results too. May give it a shot come January on my new tank 


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## Palm Tree (18 Dec 2012)

I was thinking about this last night, I think the main thing is in america the hotter climate lets the soil dry quicker. Imagine waiting in england for the soil to go bone dry a few times, it would take months.  Also john innes No 3 is used alot over here, I use it and it does a very good job and its alot less hard work. Nonetheless I will be trying it in the spring without doubt.


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## nayr88 (18 Dec 2012)

I think I'm  going to do the same in a little 1g bowl or if I can something a little bigger, and see how I get on.

Just strange how over there it's possibly the most encouraged form of nutrient rich, base substrate.

If I buy some potash, dolomite and pottery clay ill send you a little package so you can try too 

I suppose it's a bit like the ADA system where you have add all additives in the soil and dose lean into the water column , although some do say they don't dose for a good few months if at all. Much like ADA that you get desired look very quick but unless you add the extra additives that last longer and are slowly broken down and absorbed the tank will be short lived....so this is where the water column dosing comes in.

I'm going to see how the reaction is and also ask the OP on the other forum if he would re post on here.


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## nayr88 (18 Dec 2012)

Does John innes have high organic matter? 

Reason I ask is the MTS method is used to rid the soil of any organic matter.


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## nayr88 (18 Dec 2012)

I little thing to add on to my mention of ADA is that this is most likely the reason  you have step 1, 2 and 3. As you get into step 3 territory and your substrate is all but inert mud now your dosing heavily into the water column.


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## Palm Tree (19 Dec 2012)

I used to spend alot of time on the planted tank forum before I found UKAPS, but I prefer UKAPS now as its a UK forum so its more relevant to me.
I think I may get some more small 30cm tanks and test out Tesco cat litter with osmocote mixed in, John Innes No3 and MTS. 
Darrel (Dw1305) or Craig (Ceg4048) would be good people to ask as they knows their stuff about soil and substrates and I'm pretty sure they could explain the mineralisation process for us.


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## ceg4048 (19 Dec 2012)

I can't see what the big deal is. Do people even understand the fundamental principles of this method and what the net effects are? Once you get to the bottom of what's physically happening in any method you'll see that there are ways to cut to the chase.

What is mineralization? From our perspective, the quick and easy explanation is that it is the conversion of organic forms of Nitrogen and other elements into an inorganic form which plants can use. People talk about "organic fertilizers" all the time, but that expression simply means that the initial form of NPK+traces is in a once living form. Amino acids, proteins, leaf matter and manure are all composed of complicated organic structures containing the nutrients elements. Plants cannot feed on any organic molecule. The molecule has to be broken down and the nutrient element has to be converted to an inorganic form.

Proteins for example, are very high in Nitrogen. A protein molecule is a huge complex structure with N intertwined. In order to get at the N the protein molecule has to be disassembled. This happens normally through bacterial action and the protein decays to form some other molecules plus NH3. Later, other microbes will Oxidize the NH3 to form NO3. This is the process of Nitrogen mineralization.

So what's the big deal? This is the same story we already know about. The plant can either use the NH3 directly, or can wait for it to be nitrified into NO3.

You can mineralize organic sediments by freezing and thawing or by high temperature methods. Baking your compost breaks down the organic molecules in exactly the same way as when you cook things you are going to eat. This kills the bacteria in the sediment and oxidizes the ammonia quickly, so after a few hours the soil is "mineralized". After cooling, the bacterial populations will rise again.

You can also simply dry start your tank for a few weeks. With plenty of Oxygen available and a moist soil, the bacteria in the sediment will mineralize the soil for you. So all this complication is really unnecessary because at the end of the day all we are accomplishing is the movement of NPK from one form to the other. Of course I've oversimplified things just so you can see the basic framework. Mineralizing the sediment beforehand means that you short circuit the need for Oxygen to be pulled from the sediment later on in the tank to complete the circuit NH3->NO3, so that is a good thing. Also, mineralization avoids the toxicity associated with NH3. Using compost is also a lot cheaper than name brand fortified sediments. So there are plenty of advantages, but keep it real. Do you like the look of compost? Does it fit with your aquascaping and maintenance goals?

I won't even go down the route of accusing people of being paranoid about water column dosing. At the end of the day, as someone else mentioned, this approach is very similar to the ADA method of lean water dosing and high nutrient content sediment. Aquatic plants don't really care, as long as they get fed.

What I don't like is this method being pitched as some kind of revolutionary technique that will save people from themselves. Just because the proponent shows a fabulous tank using the method, it does not automatically mean your tank will be fantastic. If you still make mistakes such as too much light or poor CO2 then none of this will save you from poor plant health. Since 95% of problems is related to CO2 we should not look at this as some kind of panacea, it's just an alternate method of nutrient delivery, and if you don't like working with soil or compost then you can achieve the same results with simple clay substrates fortified with Osmocote or any nutrient product, or you could get just as good results using any gravel and just dose the water column.

Cheers,


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## nayr88 (19 Dec 2012)

Good bit of info Ceg, thanks for the breakdown. 

I wasn't trying to say why are we all missing out  doing this cool hip MTS thing, there's more than one way to eat a Cadburys cream egg! The same as there is more than one way to do a planted tank. I just wondered why literally no one does this way over here as rather a lot of people do it over there. 

It is long winded and we are superior I guess so we cut the crap and get to it haha


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## foxfish (19 Dec 2012)

I love all these ideas, it makes our hobby all the more interesting.
Of course our American friends are always trying to get the edge over ever one else - for better or worse - that's life LOL...
I would suggest you buy some ADA soil & bake it in the oven with the turkey, eat some for the vitamins as that will help you digest the turkey & then use the leftover to plant a small bowl as you wished.

All jesting aside.... lets give it a try


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## nayr88 (19 Dec 2012)

The Turkey is dry enough as it is!!! 

I'm going to try it. I'm in no way expecting some miracle, not for it to be any easier. 
It's cheap is the only plus I could see for a large tank, compared to the ADA special sand or tropica base product. 
Obviously it's extremely cheap to not have a rich substrate but to just dose EI salts.
Some people like the safety barrier. Some lazy people anyways!!! Haha


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## nayr88 (19 Dec 2012)

Also ceg excuse my lack of knowlede but are you suggesting we could 
Bake•cool•bake•cool top soil to mineralize it? Would this effect the clay you add during the soak an dry cycle.


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## BigTom (19 Dec 2012)

Clive has inevitably provided a brilliant and in depth reply... from my simplistic point of view, the only immediate and obvious advantage to mineralising your soil before using it is to reduce the (potentially considerable) ammonia leaching that can occur in the first weeks of a soil tank.

The US boards do have a tendency to latch on to particular techniques and see them as the be-all and end-all, I find.


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## Tim Harrison (19 Dec 2012)

I occassionaly visit the said US site as well  Zen and the Art of the Hybrid-Energy Soil Substrate Planted Tank I'm not sure what all the fuss is about either. I can understand why some think it's beneficial to mineralize soil before it goes in the tank but sooner or later it ends up that way anyhow, in the case of John Innes in about 2 months.

But I actually incorporate even more organic matter in my blend by adding moss peat. As the organic matter decomposes it gives off CO2 and in a volume which I believe is beneficial to plant growth. So why bother with MTS at all?


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## Garuf (19 Dec 2012)

Apc is one of the worst forums for people latching onto an idea and never letting go, I've not visited regularly in a long time but browse the interesting threads every month or so, the ADA fan boys decrying ei as heresy all the time gets tiresome.

What I think it is mostly is a cultural thing, I find american boards and users I come across want things to almost be magical, they like 10 step program type things, they want to do 10 magical things and then get results from it, there's a distrust of things if they're simple I find. I also find that they'll buy huge lights, expensive add ons etc but because it doesn't get plugged into something or it doesn't fit their magical view of how nature _must_ work they don't like to spend money on it, be it soils or ferts or co2. Ultimately I think it's a case of like breeds like which will give a distorted view of just how popular it actually is and how successful it is.


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## nayr88 (19 Dec 2012)

This is what I wondered about the whole  thing with organic matter in the soil. The organic matter is what the walstad tank is all bout as the co2 given off is beneficial.

Once again I just want to state I'm not pushing any method I'm simply offering it up or debate, after all this is what forums are for finding things out about your particular interests.


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## nayr88 (19 Dec 2012)

@Garuf, I agree with the lighting issue they love WPG chats over there.

The only advantage I could see is if you have a relatively large tank and are pretty slack/lazy with your W. column dosing that you could use this method in stead of buying a whole load of *insert brand name* rich base layer.


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## Garuf (19 Dec 2012)

Don't they just! Try saying you've grown hc with a single t5 and they'll assure you you actually need 4 and that you don't have enough wpg... 

I once posted on a thread saying what penac etc's real usefulness was and they banned me for a month... 

That said, what Ceg says breaks it down nicely, it's just a different dosing method and it's not the be all and end all and can still fail, we've had people post it on ASW and they've had massive problems with anaerobic substrates and tanks smelling of eggs or brown water that never goes away and never being able to keep fish alive in them because of leaching and all sorts of things, it's a tough one, go for it for the lesson and see what you gain but be aware of it's limitations in not holding slopes well and needing capping at all the things that go with that I suppose.


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## nayr88 (19 Dec 2012)

Haha I've been banned before on there, can't quite remember what for now. 

Cheers for all the input

The dolomite(spelling) potash and pottery clay could be something to take from the thread and just apply to the bottom of my next scape possibly?


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## dw1305 (19 Dec 2012)

Hi all,
I'm not convinced about the advantages of mineralising the soil either. I can see the point of soaking a terrestrial soil before use, but I'm not convinced about the mineralisation process _per se_. These links are Tom's ("PlantBrain") rather than mine, but it is an area he has looked into in some detail.< A cautionary word about "biologically active" substrates.> & <Substrates for the Planted Aquarium>

I actually like some "difficult to decompose" organic matter in the tank. This can be any carbon containing organic substances in the substrate, which is resistant to decomposition <http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/humic-acids>.

Something like sphagnum peat that has accumulated in the oxygen and nitrogen poor conditions of an "ombrotrophic mire", or the lignin rich skeleton of an Oak or Magnolia leaf, will release nitrogen as it decomposes in a very slow controlled manner. It will also have some cation and anion exchange capacity (CEC & AEC). I also like some DOC/DOM in the tanks, this will naturally act as a chelator <Dissolved organic substances | The Skeptical Aquarist>

If you have an inert medium (silica pool filter sand) and then mix in varying amounts of slow release humus (dead leaves or sphagnum peat) and clays with a high CEC (Akadama, mineralised top soil, calcined moler clay) you can make a bespoke substrate. I practice nutrient depletion, so I'm only add about 5% - 10% clay and humus to a silica sand substrate, but if you wanted a higher nutrient substrate you could up the proportion of clay and humus, and add osmocote etc.

cheers Darrel


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## Garuf (19 Dec 2012)

You could make it but I would imagine it would cost more than just buying some ready made akadam... Interesting mind!


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## Palm Tree (20 Dec 2012)

I use john innes No 3 in a tank of mine but used it as an emersed tank for a couple of months beforehand, it is topped with a black/grey sand and IMO I prefer it to Molar clay, mainly because it doesn't cloud easily and its easier to plant into.I was looking for peat but couldn't find any for months but now i've got some if I were to start again I would mix it 50/50 with the soil.
I haven't dosed yet but after winning some potassium nitrate, magnesium phosphate and magnesium sulphate from tankscape's facebook give away I will be starting soon. Im also saving up for a CO2 regulator and solenoid and I'm fixiting my luminaire so I can run two 24w tubes instead of just one. Despite not dosing, no CO2 and low flow ATM I have had great growth from all my plants and best of all I have no algae. I have absolutely no space to plant anything else though as I like densely planted tanks.
I am a big fan of Natural planted tanks and using soil gave me more money to spend on collecting my precious hygrophila's and other plants. I had no intention of doing ferts so I wanted a nutrient rich substrate so I wouldn't have to dose the water column.
After reading the replys I don't think I would use MTS as I would be mixing peat in with any soil I use in the future anyway so its not worth the time or effort to remove all organic compounds from the soil, I like having D.O.C's . I will just stick with normal soil and peat


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## BigTom (20 Dec 2012)

Palm Tree said:


> I use john innes No 3 in a tank of mine but used it as an emersed tank for a couple of months beforehand, it is topped with a black/grey sand and IMO I prefer it to Molar clay, mainly because it doesn't cloud easily and its easier to plant into.I was looking for peat but couldn't find any for months but now i've got some if I were to start again I would mix it 50/50 with the soil.
> I haven't dosed yet but after winning some potassium nitrate, magnesium phosphate and magnesium sulphate from tankscape's facebook give away I will be starting soon. Im also saving up for a CO2 regulator and solenoid and I'm fixiting my luminaire so I can run two 24w tubes instead of just one. Despite not dosing, no CO2 and low flow ATM I have had great growth from all my plants and best of all I have no algae. I have absolutely no space to plant anything else though as I like densely planted tanks.
> I am a big fan of Natural planted tanks and using soil gave me more money to spend on collecting my precious hygrophila's and other plants. I had no intention of doing ferts so I wanted a nutrient rich substrate so I wouldn't have to dose the water column.
> After reading the replys I don't think I would use MTS as I would be mixing peat in with any soil I use in the future anyway so its not worth the time or effort to remove all organic compounds from the soil, I like having D.O.C's . I will just stick with normal soil and peat


 
JI3 is 25% peat anyway, FYI.


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## Palm Tree (20 Dec 2012)

Well I didn't know that lol, in that case I wont add any more peat to the mixture then. Thanks for that


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## nayr88 (20 Dec 2012)

Good post Tom really insightful


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## BigTom (20 Dec 2012)

Palm Tree said:


> Well I didn't know that lol, in that case I wont add any more peat to the mixture then. Thanks for that


 
There's a breakdown of whats in all the JI mixes here - John Innes Composts explained


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