# One of those stupid threads. Suggest fish for....plastic tubs, ha, ha



## sciencefiction (8 Feb 2018)

I have these two 80l tubs set up for quite a while and I was itching to put a few fish in them...

One is a cold water tub, no heater but I can put one to prevent extremely cold spells. I haven't checked the temperature for a good while but it gets cold!...down to 12C. It's been running with rumshorn snails and cherry shrimp since May 2017. Substrate is very thin layer of 0.9mm sand.

The second one is is heated, set up for a few years now. It's got 3 old platies in it, snails and shrimp again...Substrate is soil capped with very fine play sand.

Each tub has one of my old Fluval U4 1000l/h filters.

I was wondering if there's anything suitable I can put inside considering the small size of the tubs plus the conditions.

The water is hard, TDS around 260-265 from the tap. KH 5, pH 7.4, GH around 12-13.

I have had success with some softer water fish in same water...

So what would you get?

Picture of the* cold wate*r tub:







Picture of *heated tub*:


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## Smells Fishy (8 Feb 2018)

I've recently decommissioned my 40L tub which had in it my Doubletail Betta + trumpit snails, nothing fancy looking like yours. It was super ghetto tech with DIY sponge filter, 100w heater, bare bottom but had a few leaves I'd collected, a buce still in the pot and salvinia auriculata. There all in a 30L now tho, got tired of not being able to see the Betta's colours properly. 

If it was me for the cold water tub, easy, Paradise fish. If not that a good amount of mixed minnows. Tbf I would probably do the same with the heater tub as well. For a bit of fun tho you could just buy a load of guppies and do a breeding fish for profit tub.


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## sciencefiction (9 Feb 2018)

Smells Fishy said:


> nothing fancy looking like yours


Ha, ha, not fancy at all, a bit of embarrassment really but who's looking 

Never thought of paradise fish...have to look into that. I don't think I ever considered to keep these fish.
The white cloud minnows are on my mind. I saw they have long finned ones at the moment. I quite like the look of them.
I also almost got a few endlers the other week. They had some cute coloured males and females guppy endlers in my local shop. I used to love my guppies before, males were probably one of the most entertaining small fish to watch I've kept. 

I am undecided yet but I am also thinking of converting those two tubs into a larger 300 l pond but I am not sure I want all the hassle....It may happen, it may not. If it happens, it will also be home to my hillstream loaches that currently live in a small tank so perhaps something that can do in 20-23C max would be best but I am open to ideas


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## alto (9 Feb 2018)

There should be a decent number of species that do fine in the 18-22C range

Sawbwa resplendens are interesting fish though I'm not sure how they'd look from above

Some of the dragon &/or marble Bettas have excellent top down colour/iridescence 
Koi Bettas as well IFF you can track down quality fish (but then they're rather expensive - HMPK get my vote, especially for community tank)

_Pseudomugil_ sp. 'red neon' - may be more difficult to find (prices have dropped to reasonable this year) but you'd be able to sell on any offspring


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## zozo (9 Feb 2018)

In some LFS they might have North American spp. like Notropis crosomus - Rainbow Shiner or Notropis lutrensis - Red shiner both about 8 cm adult. They can take lower temps pretty well and are actualy very beautifull fish.

Goldfish also could be an option, only if you have an address in the far future to rehome them. They can get extremely old and to large. But mind this takes rather long. What many people do is overfeed the fish and that accelerates the growth. If you feed them sparsely but enough it takes many years. They don't need a massive amount of food to stay healthy, i guess the more sparsely they are fed the healthier they stay. Like people also have luxury diseases by overfeeding and lazyness. My 3 oldest gold fish also live in tubs are about 7 years old and the largest maybe is 12 cm. I happen to have the rehome option, but i don't yet see that comming the next 7 years. And these fish becomme extremely domesticated i don't need a net to catch them they swim into my hands to play tag with me. 

Only in the winter they are in plastic tubs, 2 x 80 litre and 1 x 150 litre connected with 110mm PVC pipe vacuumed bridges. They swim from tub to tub back and forth through the pipes. I filter with only 1 filter pumping water from tub 1 to tub 3, the water flows through the pipes and the level in each tub stays equal. The fish love this luna park, some like to travel a lot others more have a favorite tub and don't feel the need to leave it.


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## sciencefiction (9 Feb 2018)

Thanks alto, will look into these.

I am not worried about how they look from the top, or the sides. I am more interested in watching their behaviour which is quite easy to monitor from the top as they don't think anyone's watching  I may be getting a Go Pro hero camera for my birthday.....undecided yet if I need it that much... but it will be cool, at least for the pond.


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## sciencefiction (9 Feb 2018)

He, he, gold fish. I recently saw a lovely tank with gold fish and I was fascinated by their behaviour. But I think I maybe pushing it with the 80l tubs. Do you have any videos of yours? I know they can get very pet like, which I like. If I get the 300l tub, I may consider a couple. Do they go with hillstream loaches or will the gold fish eat my plants


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## zozo (9 Feb 2018)

sciencefiction said:


> Thanks alto, will look into these.
> 
> I am not worried about how they look from the top, or the sides. I am more interested in watching their behaviour which is quite easy to monitor from the top as they don't think anyone's watching



Than you realy should consider gold fish.  And build them a submersed cave construction with stacked boulders and slate slabs like a parking lot with different levels. They are extremely inteligent and curious, love to explore and play tag and hide and seek with eachother in and around the caves. Even with you if you want that.. Sometimes i see the oldest swim around with a funny wiggling motion followed by a few of her smaller offspring mimicing the moves. As if they have humor and are making fun.

When it comes to observing and having fun myself.. with 3 aquariums and several tubs.. I have to most fun with my pet goldfish.. They are realy my water pets.. These are yet the only fish that give the feeling and urge to interact and cuddle them.  And they love to be cuddled. They notice me and ask my attention as soon as they do and if i don;t give soon enough they all go there own way again and just let me watch.


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## alto (9 Feb 2018)

Hillstreams love flow
Goldfish don't really have the conformation for it 
- at least not the indoor tank round bumbling soft ... & 300l is too small for the streamlined pond "common goldfish" (carp)


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## sciencefiction (9 Feb 2018)

Ha,ha, you're very convincing zozo  Thinking, thinking... 300l tub or not...2-3 gold fish and hillstream loaches....


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## zozo (9 Feb 2018)

Oh a tip, they are very color sensitive, if you want to train them it is quicker succes if you wear the same color when you aproach them. For example suddenly change to different color sweater they get startled and don't recognize you, you will be considered a threat..


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## sciencefiction (9 Feb 2018)

alto said:


> Hillstreams love flow
> Goldfish don't really have the conformation for it
> - at least not the indoor tank round bumbling soft ... & 300l is too small for the streamlined pond "common goldfish" (carp)



I have never really researched goldfish. Are there smaller varieties? Yes, the flow might be an issue...Then again, no matter what, I always have too much flow in my tanks...


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## Edvet (9 Feb 2018)

http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/wiki/Coldwater_Aquariums


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## zozo (9 Feb 2018)

sciencefiction said:


> Are there smaller varieties?



No not realy, they are a small carp breed all have the same potential of growing full size. But they are captive bred for 1000nds of years unfortunately but obvuously also inbred for as many years, hence the monstroseties out there with telescope eyes etc. So a lot of the common ones also mutated into dwarfed versions and stay rather small. I already have them for many years and some keep growing and some of them stagnate in growth at a certain age.

It's the same with color, they all are born black (at east from above its black, from the side it's more greenish. That's the original natural color of the ancester. Some get orange, others get white, others again get spoted and others again stay plain original color. The breeders sellect these dark ones out you wont see them as pet goldfish in the LFS. But the breeders also feed special food to enhance color and accelerate growth. Commet tail versions even bought completely orange all have the potential to turn completely white while maturing when not fed special food.

There is absolute no saying what you finaly will get and how fast that will be, but you have a bit a hand in this as well with feeding naturaly.

In general consensus from breeders and LFS info, they say they grow to fast and too big.. Yes that is true with the super duper high protiene they feed, that's what they do, always did and obviously all they know and advocate. Very unatural food to accelerate and enhance this and that is common commercial practice and info.Feed a lot and buy a lot..

I have my own bred goldfish and feed them sparsely and rather naturaly and they all are still extremely healthy under 5 cm in 2 years time. They feed on plants, like duckweed, salvinia, elodea, froozen food and additionaly every few days a bit pellets. 

That's all i can make of it. But because you never know what gene is most active, be prepared.. It's a gamble, i might got luky with breeding on a batch mutated to stay smaller for a longer time. You need an address to rehome them if it doesn't work out, beter safe than sory for the fish..


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## alto (9 Feb 2018)

We Try Every Species of Goldfish

- cause I just couldn't resist 

Most fancy (shortbodied) goldfish will eventually reach 6-8 inches (SL not TL), others (less compressed) will reach 8-12 inches 
Usually their growth slows after ~ 4inches 
I was looking for some sites I'd visited last year which included some genetics information (and _good_ basics) but have lost them in the morass of inane hits 

Young goldfish can change dramatically as they mature, so if you like certain colours or shapes, buying a 4inch fish is a better gamble
I'm not very knowledgeable about goldfish but have some friends that are very keen - a _nice_ goldfish really is 
though there are some extremes of breeding that disturb me (even when the fish is high grade)

It's well worth a visit to a specialist shop


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## zozo (9 Feb 2018)

Well 7 years playing with mine doesn't make me an expert either. Far from it, can only share experiences.  I bought mine, 3, from the nothing special cheap mixed grab tub.. 2 girls and one boy i discovered. One girl was an orange semi commet tail and is completely white now, the other girl developed some white spots over the years and white fin tips also is a bit longer finned but shorter than whity, she the matriarch, big mama Jambo and leads the pack, bit over 4 or 5 inch. The boy stayed rather small maybe close to 4 inch a bit stunted goldfish model. All 3 are absolutely different fish in appaerance and shape. Their offspring also is a kakofony of mutations and colors few are still natural color. Hatched in spring 2016 they grow in different rates and also a few of them are still liliput version maybe an inch, with the biggest maybe 2 inch.

I know from the local pond shop, the smallest goldfish fish they sell are all bigger than my 2 years old and say they are 1 year old fish. The breeders use special diet to rear them to a proper commercial size in the shortest time possible obviously. The best food around and likely also recomended and sold in the pond shops from the high end shelfs as also the color enhancing foods.


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## mort (9 Feb 2018)

I'm going to setup a coldwater/temperate tank for ricefish when I get around to it. Some people even keep them outside all year round here. Some have pretty colours but the way they carry the eggs on their bodies is why I want to check them out.


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## Aqua360 (9 Feb 2018)

tubs are great for fishkeeping, if you can get over the limited visibility; I've got a 50 litre tub with gardneri killifish in it just now, have also used tubs for white cloud mountain minnows, betta breeding and all sorts, can't really go wrong.

My only concern I ever had was if the plastic ever leached anything into the water, but I never experienced any negatives, perhaps someone else can weigh in.


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## Tim Harrison (9 Feb 2018)

This article in PFK always springs to mind, it's similar to Ed's suggestion, but not so much cold water, rather temperate instead... https://www.practicalfishkeeping.co...o-set-up-a-temperate-tank-that-looks-tropical


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## Smells Fishy (9 Feb 2018)

alto said:


> Hillstreams love flow
> Goldfish don't really have the conformation for it
> - at least not the indoor tank round bumbling soft ... & 300l is too small for the streamlined pond "common goldfish" (carp)



That's an interesting idea goldfish + hillstreams. It's crossed my mind before because with keeping any kind of goldfish you need high flow/filtration because it's in there nature to be little JCB's so are very messy fish. My waters all ways clear apart from feeding time when my fancys suck up the gravel\food then spit out what's not to there taste. This kind of environment would be perfect for freshwater clams also.


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## Smells Fishy (9 Feb 2018)

zozo said:


> No not realy, they are a small carp breed all have the same potential of growing full size. But they are captive bred for 1000nds of years unfortunately but obvuously also inbred for as many years, hence the monstroseties out there with telescope eyes etc. So a lot of the common ones also mutated into dwarfed versions and stay rather small. I already have them for many years and some keep growing and some of them stagnate in growth at a certain age.
> 
> It's the same with color, they all are born black (at east from above its black, from the side it's more greenish. That's the original natural color of the ancester. Some get orange, others get white, others again get spoted and others again stay plain original color. The breeders sellect these dark ones out you wont see them as pet goldfish in the LFS. But the breeders also feed special food to enhance color and accelerate growth. Commet tail versions even bought completely orange all have the potential to turn completely white while maturing when not fed special food.
> 
> ...



I love how this has turned into a kind of goldfish conversation. It's been a while since I talked this talk because I stopped using my goldfish forum a couple of years ago and only use this one now. I did think about suggesting a goldfish but didn't because sciencefiction has the tubs planted and my experience with goldfish vs plants has been a poor affair, I think we spoke about the vs before. Even the tough plants like Anubias and Amazon swords got roughed up by my fancys, but strangely in their current tank there's some salvinia auriculata which they havent touched. 

Anyway it sounds like you've got a lot of experience with common goldfish. I once had a 5ft tank with a whole load of different coloured commons, black, yellow, orange and calico and it was the best tank I've ever had. Your right about goldfish being a special fish, kind of similar to how Oscar's get praise. It was great to watch the fish cruise the tank in single line one after the other following the leader, then break off and go their own way. Everybody that saw the tank loved it, probably helped the tank was massive but for me it was the fish. I ended up moving so I traded in all of them because I had 5 other tanks to contend with, didn't want the hassle. Wasn't long till I got my self a nice black moor which has turned into my all time favourite fish. You used the word "monstroseties" regarding telescopic eyes and since I have two fancys with these eyes, I took offence to how you view them. Maybe you've never seen a beautiful telescope fancy, checkout SolidGold goldfish on youtube, it will sway you. I can see where you're coming from because fancy goldfish are a frankenstein fish like no other, with bubble eyes and the other mad ones where the eyes look only upwards. To me breeding the telescope trait in goldfish is much more attractive and acceptable than breeding for a massive Kok in flowerhorns, there's even similar Kok thing going on with glass fish. Wouldn't a flowerhorn look so much better without the Kok? It all comes down to people playing god, getting there names etched into history, thinking they're great because they created something that was never before, it happens with plants as well. Crypt flamingo might be bright pink but it's not a monstrosity. It also comes down to taste and that in life there is no such thing as normal. Do I sound mad as in angry? It's more like ranting I hope. It's just I have one huge calico telescope called Blink and what makes her so special to me is that she has one eye! Basically I think she's a beautiful fish and she's not perfect (nothing can ever perfect in life). Best of all she has a story and to prove you wrong I'm going to take a picture tonight when the lights are on and add it here so you can tell me what you think. Sorry I just don't like people dissing my pet fish.


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## zozo (9 Feb 2018)

Smells Fishy said:


> "monstroseties"



Excuse me, for not realizing this word could be offensive for some people.. Thanks for sharing this.. In the future shall be more carefull with choosing my words. Tho i didn't mean it as negatively as interpreted, but understand what you say.. I also definitively can see beauty in ugliness that's not the point. Not difficult with fish in general, we have loads of ugly beauties out there.. I find them also cute and could give it love as well, if i ever found one on my doorstep. I certainly wouldn't kick it out. And even tho i personaly miss the point why they breed customized animals like that. It's indeed a mater of taste we can't discuss over. A discussion about it was also not my intention. 

And indeed when it comes to plants, this you have to choose very carefully.. Floating Potamogetons, Nynphoides, nymphaea is absolutely no problem, they also do not touch it while it still is in submersed form.. Anything marginal planted also. So in setups like this plants are still as beneficial if not more than anything submersed. I have also salvinia natans, but this is also eaten, at least it always slowely disappears, maybe they only munch off the roots. I'm not realy familiar with keeping them in a tidy scaped planted aqaurium setup. I once planed an indoor planted winter tank for them a while ago, but during the process of building it i decided not to and make it a tropical tank. Actualy as a gest to myself it still has a Goldfish in it, the Oreichtys cosuatis, stands for The Goldfish from Koshi river in India..


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## sciencefiction (9 Feb 2018)

Overwhelmed with suggestions!!! 

Thank you everyone. I really enjoyed reading each and every post! 

I am thinking, considering gold fish are messy, how does one keep a low flow and large filtration? By the time I ensure there's enough filtration, the flow will be good enough for my hillstream loaches

Having said that, I am undecided yet....I have to think but there are obviously tons of fish I can get. On another hand, being the bottom fish lover, I may look into more loaches, lol...

In regards to plants, its not a big issue if fish eat them. If I set up a 300l tub, I was thinking sand and round big stones as substrate and emersed plants again, instead of underwater ones.. Perhaps even emersed anubias because the 300l tub I was looking at is tall enough to reduce the water level a bit,  and for a change, instead of house plants, try some anubias emersed, or something of the sort...That means I may need a lid of some sort...So again, undecided because it will be awkward with setting up the light over a tub....Thinking aloud, maybe too much hassle....


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## sciencefiction (9 Feb 2018)

Aqua360 said:


> tubs are great for fishkeeping, if you can get over the limited visibility; I've got a 50 litre tub with gardneri killifish in it just now, have also used tubs for white cloud mountain minnows, betta breeding and all sorts, can't really go wrong.



Yep, I am loving tubs. Its just not good for pictures really but for personal entertainment they're great. I really have no problem seeing the fish. I had more problems before in glass tanks when some fish hid from me, once they saw me nearby. My clown loaches have been in a pond for over a year now and I had never seen them so close and in such great detail from upclose for all the 6+ years I've had them....They actually act quite happy to see me now....wagging tails, looking up at me when I come over


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## PARAGUAY (9 Feb 2018)

Like said Goldfish will outgrow,there is a small species of Shubunkin ,most have potential to grow large,but I believe difficult to find on sale. How about small Barbs real comedians and fun to watch


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## sciencefiction (9 Feb 2018)

zozo said:


> There is absolute no saying what you finaly will get and how fast that will be, but you have a bit a hand in this as well with feeding naturaly.





alto said:


> Most fancy (shortbodied) goldfish will eventually reach 6-8 inches (SL not TL), others (less compressed) will reach 8-12 inches
> Usually their growth slows after ~ 4inches



Generally, I expected bigger sizes but I must have flash memoreis of koi fish, not gold fish


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## sciencefiction (9 Feb 2018)

Well, look at them two cuties... What type are they?

You know, I am one of them fishkeepers that never had a gold fish.

But I kept baby carp as a small kid, ha, ha, the live ones my mother bought for dinner...


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## alto (10 Feb 2018)

Cute illustrations & descriptives 

21 Incredible Types of Goldfish 

- though I've seen "common" goldfish in ponds that are much larger than 12 - 14 inches 

Note it's best to choose either "slim" or "round" bodied goldfish for a tank, otherwise the less gainly fish tend to end up losing out in all the food & dominance games 
(they can lose eyes as well)


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## Smells Fishy (10 Feb 2018)

alto said:


> (they can lose eyes as well)



Lol. Still on the goldfish topic, so it's all good. I did take some pics last night but stuff happened. When I get back from this job thing I'll upload some pics to convince sciencefiction to get a pet goldfish. Whoooooo go goldfish! Na I'm just being stupid now.


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## sciencefiction (10 Feb 2018)

alto said:


> 21 Incredible Types of Goldfish



My head is spinning, lol, so many types....


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## Smells Fishy (10 Feb 2018)

sciencefiction said:


> Well, look at them two cuties... What type are they?
> 
> You know, I am one of them fishkeepers that never had a gold fish.
> 
> But I kept baby carp as a small kid, ha, ha, the live ones my mother bought for dinner...




I pretty sure it's a fantail comet.


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## zozo (10 Feb 2018)

sciencefiction said:


> My head is spinning, lol, so many types....


Lol and it doesn't stop there, in that link the sellectively bred are discussed. And than there are mixed tubs where all is dumped that doesn't fit the general standard comming with the title. Than if you look closely you see dozens of differnt shapes and color patrens. But in the end it all are the some fish and they can outlive you depending on your age when you buy them. And this is actualy something to think about a bit further than just the numbers. It's an animal that absolutely aint stupid and it can live easily for 30 years if not longer carps in the wild are found up to 80 years. In a goldfish case say 30 years, that's a lot of time to gather information and to learn things starting at a very young age. Than imaging a they absolutely need some input and challange to stay psychologicaly healthy. They are enourmously curious and playfull and also develop kinda family or friendship bond in the group. They rather bond with the group than the invironment.. Imagine for a creature like this beeing lockep up in a dull square tank where it only is challanged to bully one of it's tank mates etc. They can get frustrated and as so many other fish the goldfish needs a well arranged thought out invironment with broken lines of sight. They are very curious and like to be challanged not to get boored in life, than give them this challange. This maybe goes for all fish that have the potential to grow very old like the Clown botia which also is a very curious playfull and social fish.



alto said:


> (they can lose eyes as well)



They can also turn the eyes in the socket to focus on a target. At least a healthy developed eye can.




This is the matriarg big mama Jambo with here mind set on a hard to get pellet. Sucking and blowing bubbles and making waves.. See the 2 smaller dudes in the back, the orange and the blacky on the right, watching and learning. That's how you do this kids!..




Took a few minutes but she finaly got it..




This is my discarted comet tail Snow White and Mama Jambo's long time friend. They spend a lot of time close together... It was completely orange when younger and slender. Now it's white and has a lovely fat wiggely belly. I grabed it few years ago from the 99 cents mixed bucket in an lfs. It's a girl btw...


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## sciencefiction (10 Feb 2018)

Lovely pictures Zozo. They look fairly happy. Thanks for posting.

I went for a drive today to the fish shop. I had a look at the gold fish there. My other half really liked the shubunkin....

I am thinking I just won't have enough capacity to house them long term, considering I have to think about my clown loaches first.....

But I am definitely considering the 300l tub so perhaps the two small tubs are going to be taken down eventually to make room, though I might have room for them too, lol..
I want cold water so I can move my hillstream loaches, which are tiny by the way....I'll have a heater keeping it at 19-20C just in case... I am going to have to get a large size filter, or two, maybe one Fluval FX6 will do,  also 2 strong overhanging lights, and of course the tub, plus sand, stones, plant baskets,..
 etc...So, its a bit  of a project..


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## sciencefiction (10 Feb 2018)

The size of my hillstreams, lol...











The front of the tank is not as much algae ridden as the sides, ha, ha.
The white dots on the leaves that look like eggs are actually oxygen bubbles.


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## Smells Fishy (10 Feb 2018)

The big, beautiful Blink and obviously Black Moor had to show his face too! When I first got Black Moor, I thought about returning him, thinking he was a psycho goldfish cause straight from the get-go he was chasing Blink and has barely left her alone since. At first I didn't have a clue what was going on, but now I know it's just breeding behaviour, since I know all the fishes genders. I'm half tempted to add a breeding mop and then Blink might actually drop some eggs. Anyway, I did as I said I would and uploaded some pics, so what do you think?


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## Smells Fishy (11 Feb 2018)

Your hillstreams would love my tank, because there's so much for them to grass on. They would get eaten tho. I once added a heater to raise the temp a bit so I could add a load of male guppies. Then when I would lay back on the feeding from time to time, the guppies started going missing until I was left with 3 from the 10 I bought. I was wounded because it did make the tank really interesting, there's even empty pond snail shells littering the substrate, so I guess they were munch on as well.


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## sciencefiction (11 Feb 2018)

Nice! Thanks for posting. They seem to love being pictured, ha, ha. Blink has a very grumpy face 

 How do you get so much green algae? I am not sure how to grow some more. I have the light on 12hrs and although there's some on the glass here and there, particularly one side of the tank, Its rather slowly clearing lately rather than growing. I don't have stones in the tank because its covered with crypts.  The only thing that saves me is that the hillstreams devour the NLS pellets I feed them. I feed them a mixture of algae max and cichlid formula. They go nuts over it, making little sand storms..

I think I am going to stick to small fish....can't risk the little guys being eaten. I am going to think and read on the suggestions here in the mean time. Its got to be fish that can withstand some flow.


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## Smells Fishy (11 Feb 2018)

sciencefiction said:


> Nice! Thanks for posting. They seem to love being pictured, ha, ha. Blink has a very grumpy face
> 
> How do you get so much green algae? I am not sure how to grow some more. I have the light on 12hrs and although there's some on the glass here and there, particularly one side of the tank, Its rather slowly clearing lately rather than growing. I don't have stones in the tank because its covered with crypts.  The only thing that saves me is that the hillstreams devour the NLS pellets I feed them. I feed them a mixture of algae max and cichlid formula. They go nuts over it, making little sand storms..
> 
> I think I am going to stick to small fish....can't risk the little guys being eaten. I am going to think and read on the suggestions here in the mean time. Its got to be fish that can withstand some flow.



No problem quite enjoyed the discussion this has turned into and plus I haven't shared my fancys with anyone for a long time.

Basically I have just let the tank do its own thing only cleaning the front and side glass. Its the most natural background and looks good IMHO. In some pics I've taken the algae looks really dense, especially from the sides. I use led lighting with blue in it so that might help but I think it looks the way it does because the tanks about 5-6ft from a tall window and it's directly opposite it as well. Natural sun light is way better than fancy led's costing hundreds. I find it very cool how a lot of my trumpet snails have a nice coat of green on their shells.


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## sciencefiction (11 Feb 2018)

Yes, I think my tank may need more light. It doesn't get any natural light. The one I have now is an LED strip but not oversized for the tank. I don't clean the glass either. The hillstreams require the biofilm that develops, and living in a small tank, they need every bit of available surface.


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## mort (11 Feb 2018)

sciencefiction said:


> I think I am going to stick to small fish....can't risk the little guys being eaten. I am going to think and read on the suggestions here in the mean time. Its got to be fish that can withstand some flow.



Good old white clouds, danio (personally love choprae but pearl, leopard and zebra would love it), lots of nice stiphodon gobies are becoming available as well and for something a little bigger but highly underrated opsarius bernatziki or one of its family members. They all do well in cooler water with high oxygen content and strong currents as would some of the beautiful shiners like rainbow shiners or the red shiner https://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/features/articles/red-shiner-cyprinella-lutrensis


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## sciencefiction (8 Mar 2018)

I've been deliberating at getting a laguna standalone pond. 

The one I was looking at is just 30cm high...My idea is to have and FX6 on it for the hillstreams but since the pond is going to sit on the ground, will the filter be able to get primed properly? Any ideas? I know my old APS filters have no problem but my JBL Cristal Profi e1500 was really struggling last year after setup on the other pond, which is 73cm high...So I wonder......


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## Gill (8 Mar 2018)

Pond wise and tubs there are many Options now. 
For the pond I am going to have, I will be having either WCMMS or Medaka whichever I can source. Medaka I would prefer as they can over winter. 
In the past I have usedTub Ponds for the following fish with success:

These were brought inside over winter.
Paradise fish - Have had them breed in tubs
Coral Platties - Have bred
Threadfin Rainbows - stunning colors outside
Odessa, Pentazona, Five Banded, Tiger Barbs
Egyptian Mouth Brooders
Guppies and Endlers
Bettas for spawning in washing up tubs.
Dwarf Chain Loach

Left outside in colder months
All Types of Danios. Most stunning were Leucistic Long Fin Zebra - They developed a lovely irridescence on their heads that were visible at night with flashlight. 
Gold WCMM and Standard. 
Hetrandria Formosa
American Flagfish - think there is still a water butt with them in at one of my old houses.


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## alto (8 Mar 2018)

If you look closely as pump/filter manuals, minimum & maximum "head" (& corresponding flowrates - though I believe manufacturers are trying to avoid listing these now) should be listed


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## alto (8 Mar 2018)

mort said:


> red shiner https://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/features/articles/red-shiner-cyprinella-lutrensis


Local shop had these last year, they made 3-4 inch easily & really needed a longer tank to seem comfortable


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## alto (8 Mar 2018)

How long have you had these hillstreams - they must be a smaller species (or waiting for their tank upgrade to grow )


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## sciencefiction (9 Mar 2018)

alto said:


> How long have you had these hillstreams - they must be a smaller species (or waiting for their tank upgrade to grow )



I've had them since last May 2017. Zero growth.....Well, a tiny bi just fattened up a bit around the tails.

Considering their tiny size now, they don't exactly need a tank upgrade....I just want to make it right for them as they're not in a typical hillstream tank. The tank is stuffed with crypts and has a sand bottom,....no stones, no nothing. But they have a good flow going and they seem to do ok, at least so far... They love sifting through sand...I never expected that..... and they tend to make sand storms at feeding time... really intense sand sifting.....I won't rush them because if I set up another tank, it's got to mature a bit before the hillstreams go in...


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## sciencefiction (10 Mar 2018)

Well, I decided against the laguna pond. Its way too shallow. The bigger size is way too big for what I want and is also just 46cm tall.

So I am going to get a heavy duty polyethylene water tight potable tank, similar make to my other one but rectangular.  Its 320 litres and 62.5cm height, just over 3f long, nearly 4f. The only problem is its white...oh well...

I went to a fancy fish shop today. I had a look at the white cloud minnows and they're just not my type of fish behaviour wise...not sure I want them. They do look nice on youtube though, so I might re-consider. I just remembered about danio choprae....another option, plus the tons of fish suggested above which I am still researching slowly, trying to make  up my mind..Thanks guys...

I got a bag of really nice fine gravel/sand size, very nice brownish/yellowish colour. I saw it in one of the shop tanks, heavy enough for high flow but fine enough to suite bottom feeders. The grains are nicely round-ish too.  I also found where to get nice round coloured river pebbles, quite cheap. I bought a few plant hanging baskets... They're black, lol,..This mini pond is already looking rather ugly  Please don't laugh. The only thing I am relieved about is how easy it is to move a plastic tub around to set it up...unlike glass tanks...And its easy enough dragging them around half empty too


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## KevB1 (13 Mar 2018)

For an 80L planted tub have you considered a pair of empire gudgeon? apparently they can take quite low temps despite being a 'tropical' fish and are happier in harder water than soft.


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## sciencefiction (27 Apr 2018)

It's been a while but I have been slowly progressing towards my goal of a cold water tub. I've purchased all my bits and pieces, filter, lights, etc...The only thing I still don't have is the tank. As I am considering a plastic sturdy polyethylene tub, it's the cheapest bit 

I actually got some of the crew as well and have been looking after a new bunch of hillstream loaches in a much smaller tub.They're doing great, or at least ok-ish. I had some issue getting them to eat fish food at first as they are wild caught, plus I had no algae. Now I've got tons of it in the tub they are in and besides the algae I think they're also eating the live blackworms plus some of the food.  It's just over 100 litres or so..They need the upgrade before I go on summer holiday in a few months.

The only thing stopping me getting my larger tub is the dimensions of the tub on offer of the type I want to get, which is a really sturdy food grain container, one piece molded, stand alone, and can even be drilled.  I have a choice between a 227litre and 320litre. I really want the 320 litre but it is quite wide, meaning I am going to have to literally "go around" it when I walk in as it's going to be next to the door....It's not that big of a deal because I am the only person walking in that room but where am I going to put my viewing chair  Next to it is my 900 litre pond so I need to think!! I can make it work if I shut down my two 80L tubs, then the chair can be placed there  In the end of the day all I got in these tubs is one platy and a few hundreds of shrimp 

One thing I want to ask for my choice of schoolers...I am not keen on fish that will eat from the bottom as they'll compete for food...I am not sure of all the suggested ones on here which ones don't eat from the bottom. For example, I have harlequin rasboras and denison barbs that almost don't touch food from the bottom. My livebearers on another hand used to outcompete my corys for food....Decisions....


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## ricefish (28 Apr 2018)

You could try Oryzias latipes very underrated fish or even Aphanius species from Europe all stay small enough for limited space


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