# BBA fight: please help me to pin point the cause.



## fablau (5 May 2015)

Hello everyone, I have been having some BBA on my slow growing plants such as Anubias, Microswords and even some of my Vals, and I have tried everything without success. I know that BBA can be mostly caused by Co2 not being right (fluctuations, not enough, etc.) but unless I am missing something, my Co2 should be ok, therefore I don't know what else do to fix the problem.

Here is my current setup and details:

- 75gl tank with wet/dry filter, 2000 l/h main pump

- Co2 pressurized injection via needle wheel pump and reactor (AM 1000), 1.3 minimum PH drop (70ml Co2 per minute)

- light: 7 hours a day (from 2pm to 9pm) with 120w running for the whole 7 hours photoperiod, and additional 40w tube running for just 4 hours from 4pm to 8pm

- EI fertilization with water change every 2 weeks.

- tank is heavily planted (see picture below) and plants thrive well (despite something must be wrong otherwise I wouldn't have BBA around!)

Here is what I have tried and didn't change a thing:

- increased circulation with a different pump running at 3000 l/h, but I saw no benefit... Instead my Java moss suffered a bit because of too high current (tried for 3 months in a row)

- increased Co2 amount a big deal to have almost 1.8 PH drop (fish were ok because having a wet/dry filter O2 is high)

Here is a pic of my tank:






And here is my current Co2 curve recorded with my Apex controller, co2 starts 4 hours before photoperiod and shuts down one hour before end:





Please, let me know if you see anything wrong in what I am doing that can cause BBA because I am pretty desperate.

Thanks in advance to anyone!

Fab.


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## Jose (5 May 2015)

Cant see anything wrong really.

Where is the BBA?
Is it growing?

Im guessing if there is anything slightly off that would be flow but Im not sure. Its a tall tank and maybe flow at the bottom isnt great.


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## parotet (5 May 2015)

Hi all

My current setup is also crowded of plants. I am now beginning to close the tank (selling plants, fishing critters, etc.) and you don't notice how much dirt (decaying leaves and others) you can have until you dismantle a tank. I considered my tank was super clean (2x50% weekly WC, light shyponing, violent plant shacking during WC, etc.) but after + 2 years, with such an amount of plants and difficult access to some parts, I bet you have much more organic than you think. Maybe not that important in low tech tanks but critical IME when playing hard

Jordi


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## pepedopolous (5 May 2015)

Tank looks awesome, I'm jealous!. Your CO2 drop seems great. You can still reduce the light however. I'm sure that more light = more BBA and algae in general.

P


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## Christos Ioannou (5 May 2015)

I have been looking at your picture ( great tank  ) for a minute but could not see any bba...

(Edit: 5 minutes)


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## fablau (5 May 2015)

Jose said:


> Cant see anything wrong really.
> 
> Where is the BBA?
> Is it growing?
> ...



BBA is on slow growers, here is a couple of pics of some Anubia leaves:













And some leaves of Microswords:





Tanks is not tall, it is a standard 48" x 18" x 21" (high) tank. Flow looks ok, I see plants moving, and I can tell you, I notice more BBA where flow is strongest (!!)


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## Christos Ioannou (5 May 2015)

It is definitely puzzling when adjacent leaves are so clean isnt it?


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## fablau (5 May 2015)

parotet said:


> Hi all
> 
> My current setup is also crowded of plants. I am now beginning to close the tank (selling plants, fishing critters, etc.) and you don't notice how much dirt (decaying leaves and others) you can have until you dismantle a tank. I considered my tank was super clean (2x50% weekly WC, light shyponing, violent plant shacking during WC, etc.) but after + 2 years, with such an amount of plants and difficult access to some parts, I bet you have much more organic than you think. Maybe not that important in low tech tanks but critical IME when playing hard
> 
> Jordi



My tank is 5 years old... I can't believe that may be the source of the problem...!!


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## fablau (5 May 2015)

pepedopolous said:


> Tank looks awesome, I'm jealous!. Your CO2 drop seems great. You can still reduce the light however. I'm sure that more light = more BBA and algae in general.
> 
> P



Thanks. I have tried to reduce light down to 5 hours, but no difference... Sigh...


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## fablau (5 May 2015)

Christos Ioannou said:


> It is definitely puzzling when adjacent leaves are so clean isnt it?



Yes, indeed! Just leaves that are 7-10 days old get affected. I really don't like it, and it has been this way since last October! I don't know what to do else...


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## Christos Ioannou (5 May 2015)

Any chance the light damages leaves then they are prone to algae attack?


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## parotet (5 May 2015)

fablau said:


> My tank is 5 years old... I can't believe that may be the source of the problem...!!


In 5 years your substrate can be quite clogged with mulm and BBA bits (vegetative or spores). Even your weekly tank husbandry may not be enough for getting rid of this. We all know that low tech tanks can last a lot of years but my guess (never tried more than 2 years) is that high tech tanks are a pain once they 'grow old' unless you really devote a lot of time. My current 60 cm tank was completely re-scaped. Not that much work (just one Sunday morning with your hands wet!) and a good chance for a good siphoning and for cleaning the parts you do not have the chance to reach.
The rest of your parameters seem ok, I don't really believe you have a problem with co2, flow may be a problem but this fast re-scraping may help to fine tune this problem.

Jordi


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## fablau (5 May 2015)

Christos Ioannou said:


> Any chance the light damages leaves then they are prone to algae attack?



How could that happen?


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## fablau (5 May 2015)

parotet said:


> In 5 years your substrate can be quite clogged with mulm and BBA bits (vegetative or spores). Even your weekly tank husbandry may not be enough for getting rid of this. We all know that low tech tanks can last a lot of years but my guess (never tried more than 2 years) is that high tech tanks are a pain once they 'grow old' unless you really devote a lot of time. My current 60 cm tank was completely re-scaped. Not that much work (just one Sunday morning with your hands wet!) and a good chance for a good siphoning and for cleaning the parts you do not have the chance to reach.
> The rest of your parameters seem ok, I don't really believe you have a problem with co2, flow may be a problem but this fast re-scraping may help to fine tune this problem.
> 
> Jordi




Wow, would be amazing if the only cause could be the "too old tank syndrome"... Actually would be less the time to remake the tank from zero than to keep maintaining it by spot-treating, etc!!

I have to think about this a little... Any more thoughts about Co2? Does my curve look ok to you from the time lights turn on to the end of photoperiod?


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## Jose (6 May 2015)

Is the BBA growing at the moment?. Its possible that something triggered it sometime back. All you can do know is make sure it doesnt grow more and remove all you can by hand. Even if your co2 is top notch right now it doesnt mean it has been like that forever. I think organics might have an impact here but it all depends on if you can stop it from growing.
Also 21 inches high is quite a big distance if you think of co2 microbubbles travelling downwards, not so much for dissolved CO2 if conc is good. dissolved. But again if algae is not growing dont change a thing and just clean it up.


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## Jose (6 May 2015)

BBA is quite good at fooling people to think their co2 is perfect because it can appear weeks after the trigger. So co2 at that time is good, but if you think back, you can trace the event that triggered it.
I cant recommend the following enough: If there is a change in co2 during photoperiod, turn your lights off for the rest of the photoperiod. This would safe the newbies a lot of algae scraping and headaches.


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## fablau (6 May 2015)

Jose said:


> Is the BBA growing at the moment?. Its possible that something triggered it sometime back. All you can do know is make sure it doesnt grow more and remove all you can by hand. Even if your co2 is top notch right now it doesnt mean it has been like that forever. I think organics might have an impact here but it all depends on if you can stop it from growing.
> Also 21 inches high is quite a big distance if you think of co2 microbubbles travelling downwards, not so much for dissolved CO2 if conc is good. dissolved. But again if algae is not growing dont change a thing and just clean it up.



Yes Jose, BBA is growing right now. I found new growth of it every day, and I prune my plants every day cutting and tossing affected leaves.

About my tank height: 21 inches if the tank size, the substrate at the bottom is about 4-5 inches thick, and the water surface is about 2 inches from the top, therefore from surface to bottom there are about 14-15 inches. I see clearly Co2 bubbles going everywhere i the tank, bottom included. Diffusion should be ok.

Also, my Co2 setup and schedule has been like this, stable, for a long time, I'd say over a year. Pretty much same PH drop (even though, as I said before, I tried to increase Co2 even further), but never less than this.


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## fablau (6 May 2015)

Jose said:


> BBA is quite good at fooling people to think their co2 is perfect because it can appear weeks after the trigger. So co2 at that time is good, but if you think back, you can trace the event that triggered it.
> I cant recommend the following enough: If there is a change in co2 during photoperiod, turn your lights off for the rest of the photoperiod. This would safe the newbies a lot of algae scraping and headaches.



Yes, hard to understand, but as I said before, Co2 injection has been pretty stable for the past year, not particular changes. And of course, if Co2 is off (if PH is higher than 6.4), lights turns off or stay off. That's programmed into my Apex 

I know, everything looks good, that's why this problem makes me crazy! Thank you for your help, appreciated.


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## Jose (7 May 2015)

Well there is something going on. Youre convinced its not co2. Ask yourself honestly what could it be? So many variables.....How much do I trust my pH meter?Is my dosing routine perfect? Maybe too much organics?
All you need to do to proof that its not organics is just to do biweekly water changes, dosing EI right after a water change and see how the algae responds. Of course remove all you can before hand.Also do the water changes after the photoperiod. May want to consider liquid carbon dosing for some time. Or peroxide if you dont have shrimps. Peroxide will help you a bit by oxidizing organics as well.
Also I might have asked you this before but what is the KH in your tank? Unless its quite high it wont make a difference.


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## Jose (7 May 2015)

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=33522

Interestingly enough you BBA is only on plants at the bottom. Does that suggest something? It tells me 2 possibilities.


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## xim (7 May 2015)

Do you have shrimp or mind having them? Yes, Amano shrimp don't like eating BBA. But I've followed Tropica's recommendation about 1 Amano shrimp per 5 L and found that their continuous grazing really prevents BBA and green fuzz algae to grow. They also reduce organic debris which is thought to cause algae.

Your tank already looks very healthy already. So it should not be a tough job.


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## fablau (8 May 2015)

Jose said:


> Well there is something going on. Youre convinced its not co2. Ask yourself honestly what could it be? So many variables.....How much do I trust my pH meter?Is my dosing routine perfect? Maybe too much organics?
> All you need to do to proof that its not organics is just to do biweekly water changes, dosing EI right after a water change and see how the algae responds. Of course remove all you can before hand.Also do the water changes after the photoperiod. May want to consider liquid carbon dosing for some time. Or peroxide if you dont have shrimps. Peroxide will help you a bit by oxidizing organics as well.
> Also I might have asked you this before but what is the KH in your tank? Unless its quite high it wont make a difference.



For sure I have high organics in this tank, even just because it is over 5 years old and I have played a lot with it. With Co2, why should not trust the Ph meter? I calibrate it regularly, and replaced it a few months ago.

I regularly spot dose with peroxide and/or excel, but those are just temporary fixings. What about bacteria/sludge removers?

As for KH, my water is pretty hard, GH 13 and KH 7.


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## fablau (8 May 2015)

Jose said:


> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=33522
> 
> Interestingly enough you BBA is only on plants at the bottom. Does that suggest something? It tells me 2 possibilities.



Do you think that's lack of Co2 at the bottom? I see bubbles running everywhere, bottom included... And, again, I pump 70ml of Co2 per minute, which is, I think, a lot. I have also tried to rise it up to 100ml per minute, but didn't make any difference. PH drop was over 1.8. Crazy high!


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## fablau (8 May 2015)

xim said:


> Do you have shrimp or mind having them? Yes, Amano shrimp don't like eating BBA. But I've followed Tropica's recommendation about 1 Amano shrimp per 5 L and found that their continuous grazing really prevents BBA and green fuzz algae to grow. They also reduce organic debris which is thought to cause algae.
> 
> Your tank already looks very healthy already. So it should not be a tough job.



I do have both Amano and Red Cherries, a lot of them... But they don't seem to care about BBA. Too bad...

My tank is mostly healthy, I give away a bucket of trimmings every 2 weeks, but this damn BBA is just annoying. Thanks!


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## Jose (8 May 2015)

fablau said:


> For sure I have high organics in this tank, even just because it is over 5 years old and I have played a lot with it.


Then you know what you can to sort it out. Just good old wcs.



fablau said:


> With Co2, why should not trust the Ph meter? I calibrate it regularly, and replaced it a few months ago.


Well it should be allright then, but never trust machines 100%. 




fablau said:


> What about bacteria/sludge removers?


Nah, I mean snails will do no harm of course but wcs are the best way and maybe feed less.



fablau said:


> Do you think that's lack of Co2 at the bottom? I see bubbles running everywhere, bottom included... And, again, I pump 70ml of Co2 per minute, which is, I think, a lot. I have also tried to rise it up to 100ml per minute, but didn't make any difference. PH drop was over 1.8. Crazy high!


Yes. Either this or high organics or both.It doesnt necessarily mean there is a lack of co2 at the bottom right now though. You can try to up co2 just a tad maybe up to 80-85 ml per minute although this number means nothing really cause we havnt got anything to compare to. Ph is much more telling. 



fablau said:


> My tank is mostly healthy, I give away a bucket of trimmings every 2 weeks, but this damn BBA is just annoying. Thanks!


Just keep up with wcs (2x a week with syphoning) and up co2 a bit. Remove all BBA by hand. In a couple of weeks you should see improvement. But removal by hand has to be thorough.


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## fablau (8 May 2015)

Thank you Jose. I'll try what you suggest and see what happens. Appreciated your help!


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## Aqua Hero (8 May 2015)

you can try dosing liquid carbon directly where the concentration of algae it. it cleared my bba problem in a few weeks


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## fablau (9 May 2015)

Aqua Hero said:


> you can try dosing liquid carbon directly where the concentration of algae it. it cleared my bba problem in a few weeks



Yes, That's usually what I do, but BBA keeps coming back. Now, I am trying to keep Co2 a little bit higher, and keep up with more WC for a while. And of course, a better fertilization regime. I will keep you posted. Thanks!


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## fablau (31 May 2015)

May 31, BBA UPDATE: gone. Yes, BBA is gone! Here is what I have done to make it disappear from my tank for the past month:

1. Got back to regular EI schedule by daily alternating macros with micros. Dosing 1/3 less than the recommended EI, just because I perform water change every 2 weeks.

2. Four weeks ago, after water change, I added recommended dose of Excel (the high dosage recommended after water change). That destroyed completely all BBA I had, but also damaged some of my Vals (too bad!) that have now recovered 

3. Raised Co2 a little until I could see pearling on plants (tanks Tom for the tip I read on another thread somewhere!). As a reference, I raised Co2 to reach 80ml per minute. And I'll keep it that way from now on!

So... this has been my recipe to get rid of BBA after 8 months of struggling!

I think the following points helped a big deal:

1. Excel helped to get rid of everything bad was out right at that moment (BBA)

2. Raising Co2.

3. Getting back into regular fert routine without being afraid of "toxicities". I mean, all my plants got better, Alternathera Reinikii included which was struggling in a long time! In particular I think the increase of micros helped the most.


I hope my experience could be useful for other people. I'll keep watching my tank to see if that damn BBA will ever come back, but so far so good! Thanks again to anyone on this forum for the help given.

Best,
Fab.


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