# Cheap dry ferts



## mindscape100 (7 Apr 2008)

Hi Guys,

Just want to ask if anyone knows of cheap suppliers of dry ferts as Im stepping up to the EI method very soon. (im currently just using seachem flourish and am beginning to suffer with some algae!).
Ill be adding the dry ferts directly to the tank so what would I need to get, Kno3 etc including the trace.

Any help apprecieated.

John


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## aaronnorth (7 Apr 2008)

Aqua essentials.


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## mindscape100 (7 Apr 2008)

ive read ceg`s article. Is it just the main three ingredients Ill need? Just some articles show other elements that they are adding. 

Thanks guys


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## ulster exile (7 Apr 2008)

Just to go back to your initial question, AE is great but you cna get cheaper from other sources.  

*Aquaessentials*
_Potassium Nitrate (250g) - Â£4.99_

_Mono Potassium Phosphate (250g) Â£4.99_

_Trace elements Mix (250g) - Â£9.99_

Postage = Â£3.95
*Total = Â£23.92*

*Garden Direct*
_Potassium Nitrate (500g) - Â£5.25_
Nitrogen (N) 13% Potassium Oxide (K2O) Soluble in water 46% (K38.2%)

_Potassium Phosphate (500g) - Â£4.25_
Phosphorus Pentoxide (P2O5) 52% (P 22.7%) Soluble in water Potassium Oxide (K2O) 34% (k28.2%) 

_Chelated Trace Elements Mix(500g) - Â£10.5_0
Contains Iron, Manganese, Zinc, Copper plus unchelated Boron and Molybdenum
Iron 3.35% Copper 1.7% Manganese 1.7% Boron 0.88% Zinc 0.88% Molybdenum 0.023%

Postage = Â£4.95
*Total = Â£24.95*

I think magnesium sulphate and potassium sulphate is also added depending on your water conditions, but tbh I'd wait for someone else to answer your question as to what else is needed!


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## mindscape100 (7 Apr 2008)

Thats quite a difference in price secially considering you get more also!!
Thanks for the help.


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## Martin (7 Apr 2008)

ulster exile said:
			
		

> Just to go back to your initial question, AE is great but you cna get cheaper from other sources.
> 
> *Aquaessentials*
> _Potassium Nitrate (250g) - Â£4.99_
> ...


 Another excellent find Chrisi for us tightwads!


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## ulster exile (7 Apr 2008)

My hubby is a Yorkshireman - sometimes if I listen carefully enough, I can hear a little squeek as he walks


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## mindscape100 (7 Apr 2008)

ulster exile said:
			
		

> My hubby is a Yorkshireman - sometimes if I listen carefully enough, I can hear a little squeek as he walks



Technically I am still a student....yes I get paid now but Im still tight with the pennies   

Ive heard of the other traces added depending on the tap water. I dont think Ive seen them used in the EI method for dry dosing...I could be wrong though if anyone knows where its been mentioned let me know.

Thanks guys


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## ceg4048 (7 Apr 2008)

mindscape100 said:
			
		

> ...Ive heard of the other traces added depending on the tap water. I dont think Ive seen them used in the EI method for dry dosing...I could be wrong though if anyone knows where its been mentioned let me know.



You can use whatever trace element you desire, be it powder or commercial liquid. This is like choosing the brand of vitamin tablets. Name brands cost more than the trace powders but have the same ingredients more or less. There is no problem using TPN or Seachem Flourish for example, it's just that they are more expensive than using the powdered form which you can get by the kilo. Plants use very small quantities of trace elements when compared to NPK. Some people use the commercial trace liquids because they are supposedly more convenient. Either way it's not a big deal.

Cheers,

EDIT: Just notice the question regarding additional powders. There is only one other powder you would possibly need and that is MgSO4, commonly known as Magnesium Sulphate, or Epsom Salts. Since we do not know the Mg content of anyones tap it's advisable to start off with the standard dosing of 1/2 teaspoon 3X per week for a 20 USgallon. Scale up or down depending on your tank size. The cheapest place to find this powder is Boots or any pharmacy. The next cheapest place is Garden Direct. No other powders are required unless you are using pure RO water, or large quantities of it.


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## mindscape100 (8 Apr 2008)

thanks for that ceg....
Just the answer I was looking for. I think I may still add the seachem flourish once a week.

Thanks.
John


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## Themuleous (8 Apr 2008)

ulster exile said:
			
		

> Just to go back to your initial question, AE is great but you cna get cheaper from other sources.
> 
> *Aquaessentials*
> _Potassium Nitrate (250g) - Â£4.99_
> ...



Is there no difference in the soluble quantities of N and P for AE compared to the garden direct stuff?  I would always been hesitant to get garden stuff in case it was not as 'strong' as the AE stuff or am I being daft?

Sam


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## Voo (8 Apr 2008)

I've been using the Garden direct ferts for maybe a year now. It does give the %ages of N and P in each chemical, i can get these tonight after work if you want.

My only worry has been that the trace mix contains copper. Is this in all trace ferts? The other thing is i have no idea how much trace fert i should be adding to my tank


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## mindscape100 (8 Apr 2008)

Hey Sam,
If the product is sold as Potassium nitrate etc powder then it would be the same. The concentration would only be altered when you make up the solutions. The label would show the powder to have a certain weight...this is its molecular weight that is used to make up molar/ppm concentrations...if that makes sence?? Although this all depends on whether there are other "goodies" added to the powder!
John


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## johnny70 (8 Apr 2008)

I have been using the stuff from garden direct, no problems here. as for copper in the Trace, I have only seen trace with copper in, I have inverts in many of my tanks that I dose with in and haven't had any problems with it

JOHNNY


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## JamesC (8 Apr 2008)

The dry ferts are pretty much exactly the same wherever you get them from. The only exception being the chelated trace mixes which can vary a bit. I used the Garden Direct traces some time ago but then started keeping shrimp so changed as the Copper levels are approx 10x higher than the Aqua Essentials traces. It may or may not be a problem. Interestingly Tropica also has relatively high Copper levels as well and I've seen this suggested somewhere is one of the reasons why it is so good. TBH if you are doing 50% plus water changes a week then you should have no worries with the copper levels.

Dosing levels are the same with the Garden Direct Traces as they are with the Aqua Essential traces. 
From the Aqua Essentials web site:


> For preparing a stock solution add 1 tablespoon of trace mix to 500ml of water. Then add 10ml per 100 litres as required.



James


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## Lisa_Perry75 (8 Apr 2008)

See I was thinking about the difference between AE and garden ones.

Look at the label, it says Potassium phosphate. Look at the ingredients and its Potassium oxide and phosphorus oxide. This is not the same as potassium phosphate and I do wonder if plants are able to utilise it as such. I don't know though...

AE trace mix has a much higher percentage Iron concentration.


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## mindscape100 (8 Apr 2008)

The chemical formulae for this is KH2PO4(monobasic). Which basically is potassium and phosphorus mixed together (balanced equation).
So the ingredients I guess is just showing the potassium phosphate broken down to its raw ingredients. I think anyway. Anyone correct me if Im wrong.

John


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## mindscape100 (8 Apr 2008)

I was also wondering with regards to calculating how much water is in the aquarium.... Do you work out the volume of the tank from the basic dimentions or do you subtract the amout due to the substrate. With my tank that could accound for about 30-40 litres Id imagine. Any thoughts.

Thanks guys
John


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## Lisa_Perry75 (8 Apr 2008)

Well John thats the thing. Chemical formulae are just that. Its not just this and that "mixed together" they should be chemically covalently bonded together.

From what the ingredients say I would have thought the phosphorus is covalently bonded with oxygen and the potassium the same. If KH2PO4 was in there surely the only ingredient is KH2PO4? Its a bit like a cake is made with sugar, butter, eggs and flour. Once its cooked it has chemically bonded together and you couldn't call it the same as sugar, butter, eggs and flour it is now chemically different.


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## Lisa_Perry75 (8 Apr 2008)

I may be wrong, but then again I'm in the lab all the time and if I pick up a bottle of say epsom salts (MgSO4) I wouldn't expect it to be a mix of dry powders magnesium oxide and dry powder of sulphate.


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## parsonsmj (8 Apr 2008)

Hi 
I have just got the other ingredients for the brew.
However I missed Chelated Trace Elements Mix(500g) - Â£10.50
I thought the AE trace was all I required!
Have I missed something?


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## ceg4048 (8 Apr 2008)

mindscape100 said:
			
		

> I was also wondering with regards to calculating how much water is in the aquarium.... Do you work out the volume of the tank from the basic dimentions or do you subtract the amout due to the substrate. With my tank that could accound for about 30-40 litres Id imagine. Any thoughts.
> 
> Thanks guys
> John



Guys,
     KH2PO4 is KH2PO4. The references you see to K2O has nothing to do with the chemical formula of the supplied powder. I believe there are certain regulations related to selling fertilizers in that the content must be expressed in terms of a standard reference chemical. In the case of Phosphorus, the content is normally expressed in terms of "equivalent P2O5" and in the case of Potassium the content might be expressed in terms of "equivalent K2O". 

It's also a possibility that these are the the original chemical quantities used to produce the KH2PO4.  Phosphorous Pentoxide (P2O5) is described as a white, flammable, dangerous, and extremely hygroscopic solid which reacts with water violently to produce Phosphoric acid (H3PO4). Potassium Oxide (K2O) is described as a colorless, hygroscopic crystalline which reacts violently with water producing Potassium Hydroxide (KOH).  Since we can dose this powder without any violent reactions, it's safe to assume that neither P2O5 or K2O is present in this powder. Since the combination of  [acid + base] always yields a salt it seems a reasonable assumption that the salt KH2PO4 is the result of combining phosphoric acid with the base potassium hydroxide. The data shown on the Garden Direct page therefore is likely the relative quantities of original acid/base used in the production of this salt perhaps as required by law.

If you review the Seachem site for Flourish Phosphorus you will see a similar analysis using these two original chemicals=>http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/FlourishPhosphorus.html

The bottom line is this: Buy the Garden Direct KH2PO4 and dose per the instructions in the EI article and don't fret.

Traces are a slightly different story only because trace elements are a mixture of 5 or 6 items so every vendor has a different recipe. As stated the Garden Direct Trace mix is higher in Cu than the AE mix. Sechem Flourish is a different mixture than TPN. No big deal.

Cheers,


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## Lisa_Perry75 (8 Apr 2008)

Cheers for clearing that up Cegipedia


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## Themuleous (8 Apr 2008)

> The bottom line is this: Buy the Garden Direct KH2PO4 and dose per the instructions in the EI article and don't fret.



Haha simple as that, cheers 

Sam


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## Martin (9 Apr 2008)

So glad the chemistry boffins on here know what they are talking about, and I can just follow their advice. I was rubbish at chemistry in school and just messed about with the bunsen burners!


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## ceg4048 (9 Apr 2008)

Martin said:
			
		

> So glad the chemistry boffins on here know what they are talking about, and I can just follow their advice. I was rubbish at chemistry in school and just messed about with the bunsen burners!



Hiya Martin,
                   Yeah, but don't you now wish you had paid more attention in class? I'm just glad you didn't manage to burn your school down..


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## Martin (9 Apr 2008)

Hi Ceg, I'm afraid I was never going to achieve much when it came to science subjects. My path was clearly mapped out from an early age, lets just say I'm more artistic than academic.


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## mindscape100 (9 Apr 2008)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> mindscape100 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thats sort of what I was trying to say...I dont think I made myself clear with it....anyway Ive ordered most of the stuff from garden direct...apart from the two of the powders which Ive got from the lab  
so Ill soon be adding them to the tank and hopefully watching my plants stack themselves!!

John


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## ceg4048 (9 Apr 2008)

OK, good. In any case forget about all the gymnastics of subtracting this volume from that volume. Just do your calculations using the size of the tank.

Cheers,


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## mindscape100 (10 Apr 2008)

ok ceg. Thanks for the advice. Just looking forward to my shipment now! 
John.


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## tanker (12 Apr 2008)

Hi guys,
 Currently, i'm dosing ADA brigthy k and ADA step 2. i didnt know what is wrong and my weeds are not growing healthily. algae has the upper hand. i have pressurised CO2 and i would say quite high lighting at 8hrs a day. 
I'm thinking, the major problem of my dosing now is the lack of N and P. i think potassium is taken care of by dosing Brighty K. 

i'm not based in the UK and after reading the stuff on EI dosing, i wanna give it a try. Can you guys tell me what kind of stores, (tesco/pharmacy/whatever) that will sell powders that contain the nutrients as in EI? and also what kind of product that i should be looking for? 
thanks


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## mindscape100 (12 Apr 2008)

I think my problem with describing what is contgained with the ferts may also be the fact that Ive had a few beers by the time of postin...(not a good idea) I agree Lisa with what your saying with the epsom salts foe example but like ce
g mentioned the companies may be required to state what went in from the very start. My phd is not in chemistry so I could be far off but that seems logical?? Oh I dont care so long as the plants are happy and theres no floating fishes.....thats all I want!!!
Tell you something though ceg....your a wealth of knowledge thats why I love this site!!

John


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## ceg4048 (12 Apr 2008)

tanker said:
			
		

> Hi guys,
> Currently, i'm dosing ADA brigthy k and ADA step 2. i didnt know what is wrong and my weeds are not growing healthily. algae has the upper hand. i have pressurised CO2 and i would say quite high lighting at 8hrs a day.
> I'm thinking, the major problem of my dosing now is the lack of N and P. i think potassium is taken care of by dosing Brighty K.
> 
> ...



Tanker, where are you again? It might be a good idea to edit your profile to indicate your location. KNO3 an KH2PO4 are strictly agricultural chemicals used by farmers from Canada to Australia.  You would find these powders in any agricultural supply establishment and hydroponic gardening supply shops. KNO3 is also used as an explosive with which farmers remove tree stumps to clear the land so you might find it as "Stump Remover" or something like that. If you live in a nation that has a decent agricultural infrastructure you'll likely find these two sold in 50Kg sacks, which is enough to last a lifetime. You could also try pharmacies or laboratory supply. They might not stock these but they will know where to find them. If they do stock them they will be sold there at a higher price that at a farming supply shop.

mindscape, thanks for the compliment and glad you find the site useful. Have another pint for me mate.  

Cheers,


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## Themuleous (19 Apr 2008)

Just ordered 2kg of both KNO3 and KH2PO4, Â£27.65 all in, bargain!   Should last me years.

Sam


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## Themuleous (22 Apr 2008)

Placed the order on Saturday, received it today.  Doesn't get better than that.  2kg is far more than I had thought, it really is going to last me years!

Well worth remembering for future reference.

Sam


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