# T5 to LED



## willzs (24 May 2016)

I have a 4x2x2 tank with 4x39w T5s at the moment and was wondering about switching to LEDs. What are people's thoughts on this and what options are recommended?


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## alto (25 May 2016)

that 60cm tank height means you'll need to invest in the sort of emittors used in the Kessil etc lights - significant investment I suspect ... what don't you like about the T5's?

I've one tank with Kessil A160 Tuna Sun, another with a HOT5 (with very efficient reflectors), any plant limitations are mine not the lighting 
I needed a new light system for the Kessil tank as every T5 luminaire I've ever placed on that tank has failed (just after the warranty expiration  )  - most local shops have embraced LED technology so I reluctantly bought LED, chose Kessil after examining the various options ... a year later & I'm very pleased with Kessil, some days I think about switching out my T5 system BUT it's a lot of $$ to replace something that looks & works just fine  

(it's not a dimmable unit which is the one consideration that has me tempted to go LED on this tank ... I like the aesthetics of the LED but also very much like the color rendering of the T5's ... I picked up a Current USA satellite freshwater LED + Pro which is very bright on a 30cm tank height but rather underpowered on the 55cm tall tank)


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## ian_m (25 May 2016)

What about changing to 4 off of the 1047mm versions of these. They fit into existing T5 tube holders, so you can use your existing hood/fixings. These are about 1 1/5 T5 HO brightness, so a dimmer would also be a wise purchase.

http://www.allpondsolutions.co.uk/a...antis-easy-led-universal-lighting-freshwater/


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## willzs (25 May 2016)

Yea I was worried about the height of the tank with the LEDs. The main reason for the swap apart from the running costs is that my current setup leaves a dark gap at the edges of the aquarium so I have had to place 2 LED strip lights there that I had before. I also prefer the look of the LEDs with the shimmer you get on the water.

I was looking at these:
http://www.aquariumgardens.co.uk/be...anted-aquarium-led-light-unit-6500k-721-p.asp


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## ian_m (25 May 2016)

willzs said:


> http://www.aquariumgardens.co.uk/be...anted-aquarium-led-light-unit-6500k-721-p.asp


Take the "replaces twin T5" with a very very large pinch of salt.

A standard 54" T5 HO tube is about 5000lumens, thus 2 T5 tubes will give you about 10000lumens, about 2 1/2 times brighter than the above LED unit. 

Also it quotes 96 x 0.5W LEDs which is as good as near 54W for power consumption of a  single T5 tube. So no power saving either. 

Sorry what was the advantage of these LEDs ????


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## Easternlethal (25 May 2016)

ian_m said:


> Sorry what was the advantage of these LEDs ????


aren't LEDs supposed to have much narrower dispersion so most of the watts are directed into the water and not all around the tube?



alto said:


> I like the aesthetics of the LED but also very much like the color rendering of the T5'



Alto - can you elaborate? What aesthetics does an LED have over T5 and what color rendering are you referring to?

I've always used leds but am quite curious about T5s..


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## ian_m (25 May 2016)

Easternlethal said:


> aren't LEDs supposed to have much narrower dispersion so most of the watts are directed into the water and not all around the tube?


That's what reflectors are for, to point the T5 light down into the tank.


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## Easternlethal (25 May 2016)

ian_m said:


> That's what reflectors are for, to point the T5 light down into the tank.


sure but the amount of light lost is not trivial. I think T5s have their strenghts but efficiency really just isn't one of them when compared against leds imo.


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## ian_m (25 May 2016)

Easternlethal said:


> efficiency really just isn't one of them when compared against leds imo.


Incorrect. Most T5 HO tubes produce much more light than most hobby LED fixtures for the same power. T5's are about 80lumens per Watt light, economy/hobby LEDs you would be lucky if you saw half that. There are some higher efficiency smaller LED fixtures, that may be higher lumens per Watt, but then the total light output is smaller.

Where LED's are good is, it makes it possible to cover the whole of the tank surface with an acceptable light level at an acceptable price.

However going to proper LED fixtures, Aqualantis, Kessil, TMC, that use 3 Watt and above LED's you are looking at possibly over 100lumens per Watt and serious lumen outputs.


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## Easternlethal (25 May 2016)

I never said that wasn't the case. The point is that even if 2-3 times more lumens were produced they are radiating to the sides and upwards. Thats where the inefficiency lies. Even with reflectors a lot of energy is wasted.


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## ian_m (25 May 2016)

Easternlethal said:


> Even with reflectors a lot of energy is wasted.


Can't see how that can be. All the light from the T5 tubes is reflected downwards, nearly doubling the light level compared to no reflector.


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## Easternlethal (25 May 2016)

All the light is reflected? I think I hear the sound of a high school physics teacher turning in his grave.. 

Anyway who cares I guess.. it's not like we're growing a roomful of pot.

sorry for jacking yer thread..


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## willzs (25 May 2016)

Wow this escalated since this morning. So you wouldn't recommend switching to LED then?


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## alto (25 May 2016)

The design of many T5 luminaires & most (cheap) reflectors used means that significant light refracts before it ever enters the water ... there's a reason why *Giesemann* & similar level manufacturers charge $$$ rather than $ for even their T5 systems 



willzs said:


> So you wouldn't recommend switching to LED then?


not the version that *ian_m* linked

The Beamsworks won't "_work_"   either


> 96 x 0.5w 6500k (Daylight) LED's



You need to look at Kessil (maybe EcoTech), Orphek, Aqua Illumination etc (possibly TMC but I'd enquire about PAR/PUR at 60 cm water depth)


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## willzs (25 May 2016)

Why do you say they won't "work"? Those ones you mentioned are some serious money!


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## willzs (25 May 2016)

I've also looked at the TMC Grobeam 1500 tiles. Would they be a better option? Their page recommends that I'd need 3 of them?


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## alto (26 May 2016)

willzs said:


> Why do you say they won't "work"? Those ones you mentioned are some serious money!


Yes (on the $$$)

Tank will look "lit" but PAR at substrate will be rather low ... Current USA has kindly reported some PAR values at 12" (water column - be wary of PAR etc reported through AIR!) - the #'s reported will vary somewhat depending on LED manufacture but show the differences between 0.1, 0.2 & 1.2 watt emittors  

Depending on your present T5 system (HO ballast, high energy/intensity phosphors (in the lamps), reflectors (material & shape)) you may note increased growth with 0.5watt LED's ... or you may need to invest in the sort that Kessil etc are manufacturing (cluster technology)


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## Easternlethal (26 May 2016)

Most of the current lighting philosophy involves flooding the tank with par but i think it's high time someone developed something more flexible like a rack of narrow beams that can be trained on plants that need more light. Such a system would allow high and low light demanding plants to be grown in the same tank and I'm sure it will take aquascaping to a whole different level.
Imagine being able to grow hcs next to anubias or having an intensely red bunch of macandras in the middle of a field of buces.

If I was a light manufacturer I would design a multi component system of T5s and cluster leds that allow me control general par at the substrate but be able to identify hotspots around tank where i could double or triple the par just for those spots or even just to create shimmer. Best of all worlds then...


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## alto (26 May 2016)

Easternlethal said:


> it's high time someone developed something more flexible



I believe this is the direction Lupyled has taken in their development of the ONE (Oliver Knott presentation video) - expect more from Interzoo this week


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## Easternlethal (26 May 2016)

It's a step in the right direction but they seem to be more concerned with developing the app which is a big mistake imo. I don't think they use lenses so the hotspots are still way too wide. They should just add flashlight style reflectors and lenses (maybe like those overhead adjustable reading lights you find on airplanes) and let users manually focus the lights themselves. I think that would be cheaper and more popular.


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## ian_m (26 May 2016)

What about these for a 4ft tank.
https://www.iquaticsonline.co.uk/un...-universal-4-tube-120cm.html?___store=default

4 tubes (T5 HO) will give 20,000 lumens (using Arcadia T5 tubes).

I have the 92cm version and with all 4 tubes on plants grow (and pearl) like made.


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## willzs (26 May 2016)

ian_m said:


> What about these for a 4ft tank.
> https://www.iquaticsonline.co.uk/un...-universal-4-tube-120cm.html?___store=default
> 
> 4 tubes (T5 HO) will give 20,000 lumens (using Arcadia T5 tubes).
> ...



I actually have an iQuatics unit now but the length of the tubes prevented me being able to go 54w. I'm going to remeasure and look at this though. The only thing I need to look at is the mounting as I have a oak lid on my tank.


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## willzs (26 May 2016)

106cm internal width of the lid so that idea is out 


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## markk (26 May 2016)

willzs said:


> Yea I was worried about the height of the tank with the LEDs. The main reason for the swap apart from the running costs is that my current setup leaves a dark gap at the edges of the aquarium so I have had to place 2 LED strip lights there that I had before. I also prefer the look of the LEDs with the shimmer you get on the water.
> /



The biggest 'disadvantage' with LED technology is the 'lack' of standardisation. LEDs vary wildly in performance and application.

So you need to cut through the marketing c**p ("Patented Dense Matrix LED™ technology" - yes, that Kessil site is a marketing wonderland) and focus on the fundamentals. In a semblance of order, I would look at - actual output (in lumens), effectiveness, efficiency and aesthetics. I take controllability as a given for LEDs (and is still the main reason I use them rather than fluorescents) - but many low end suppliers still don't provide even basic dimming functionality.

*Output*

I'm guessing your current 4 * 39w T5s will be producing around 12000 lumens of output. You'll be losing a little of that to reflector inefficiency - but that applies to virtually any reflector/lens based system - be it LED or fluorescent - so just ignore it.

Coincidentally extrapolating up from one of my tanks, I get that same figure - so I would suggest that as the starting point and maybe increase to 15000 or more for extra headroom. Of course, if you go LED, you can adjust down from there to any level you like.

So you'd need roughly 3 of the Beamswork units you mentioned before to get to that level. Feasible but probably not the best solution

*Effectiveness*

By this I mean the ability to direct those 12-15000 lumens of light to where they're needed.

Most 'regular' LED fixtures have a spread of about 120-130degrees. This 'encourages' people to place those fixture close to the surface of the water to minimise light spillage and maximise the amount of light entering the water. This gives a good spread of light throughout the tank, including upper and lower levels - but that spread also means you lose more light from the sides of the tank.

(As an aside, anyone with one of these units will confirm that the spread is actually closer to 180degrees but the light output drops off towards the extremes - as far as I can tell the manufacturers calculate the reported spread based on the angle at which the light output has dropped to 50% of its peak.)

Other units, such as the Kessils and Orphek, use lenses to focus that light. This is typically either 60 or 90 degrees for freshwater/planted tanks. These have the advantage of minimising light loss/spillage (although again, no lens is 100% efficient) and providing a concentrated cone of light that penetrates well. So minimal light loss but at the expense of poor light spread - worse at the surface where there will be significant areas with poor coverage and still not ideal at the bottom, where you will have circles of light, areas of dark - and a limited ability to remedy that with multiple sources.

You also need to differentiate between the Kessil type units with multiple LEDs focused into a cone (i.e. like a spotlight) and other units (Orphek?) that use individual lenses for each LED - spread is less of an issue for the latter types.

So you need to take a view on spread versus penetration (yes - that's a bit of a simplification!).

*Efficiency
*
As Ian has already mentioned, you can easily buy low end LEDs that are less efficient than fluorescent technology. Your current T5s consume 156watts at about 75 lumens per watt - and the 54w tubes Ian mentioned can drive that up to over 90 lumens per watt. The best LEDs currently available on the market will easily give you 150 lumens per watt. I could build you a system that would give you the equivalent 12000 lumens for 80watts - and it's always worth remembering that's not just a saving in power costs, the flipside is a marked reduction in heat generated - which can be an issue for many people.

As a gross generalisation, the lower powered, individual LEDs are less efficient and LEDs that run at up to 3 watts each will be more efficient. (Many top end LEDs can be run at higher power than this but they run less efficiently and are harder to cool). If it isn't explicitly stated, you can usually deduce from the specs what type of LEDs any unit is using.

*Aesthetics*

Mostly just focusing on the shimmer effect that you like. It's unlikely a couple of hundred low power LEDs are going to give you that effect as there are so many small light points. For better shimmer, think smaller number of higher powered LEDs or the tight cone provided by something like a Kessil unit.

I don't have much interest in light spectrum - I think it's a huge red herring. Pick cool white, neutral white or warm white and be done with it

and of course - do you need the great looks of a Kessil unit (and the cost it entails) when it's going to be hidden under an oak hood?

All told, I'm not entirely sure if any of that will help.. but food for thought perhaps..

Regards, Mark


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## Easternlethal (26 May 2016)

Instead of trying to justify using t5s on efficiency grounds how about a little discussion on its other advantages? I mean.. efficiency isn't what's making people buy kessils or giessemanns let's be honest...


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## willzs (26 May 2016)

Wow that's a pretty in depth explaination Mark, thanks. You mentioned about building an LED unit, is this an easy option or have I opened up a whole new can of worms?


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## Easternlethal (26 May 2016)

They are so easy to build. Just stick on to the housing and wire. My xml2s here are rated 170-180 lumens per watt.

But why replace your T5s? I would just train a couple of gooseneck spotlights on the dark areas and get your shimmer.


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## willzs (26 May 2016)

That doesn't look that difficult. I'd like to replace the T5s and have less plugs too rather than just adding more


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## Easternlethal (26 May 2016)

The difficult part is actually deciding out of all the gazillion different colors and sizes out there and how you're going to lay them out.

As you can see I'm just adding them all. (Who got da dense matrix now kessil?)


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## willzs (26 May 2016)

Easternlethal said:


> The difficult part is actually deciding out of all the gazillion different colors and sizes out there and how you're going to lay them out.
> 
> As you can see I'm just adding them all. (Who got da dense matrix now kessil?)


That and where do you get them and all the bits from?


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## Easternlethal (26 May 2016)

Rapidled, ledsupply, steve's led.. there a tons of places. Just google diy led. My aluminium housing cost $40 from ebay if i remember and my cree leds cost between 50cents and $1 and my drivers cost $20.. and i got 30000 lumen worth of leds. Definitely do that if you wanna save $$


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## willzs (26 May 2016)

Are they American sites though?


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## markk (27 May 2016)

willzs said:


> Wow that's a pretty in depth explaination Mark, thanks. You mentioned about building an LED unit, is this an easy option or have I opened up a whole new can of worms?



Well - I'm biased when it comes to DIY LEDs, having built my own units for all of my current tanks. Running count is 5 with another in the works.

If you're interested in that route, I find it's best to think about them in a modular way - heatsink, LEDs, driver(s), power supply and controller. If you chose each piece of the puzzle carefully then you'll have the flexibility to upgrade/modify/reuse elements as needed - and maybe more importantly, fixing problems is so much easier. You can combine the power supply and driver into one unit but separate units gives you more flexibility. A controller isn't necessary at first and the whole thing can be run from a simple timer.

My original build is detailed here:-

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/diy-cree-led-retrofit-to-old-hood.36983/

Many other designs are available That build has been working without issue for almost 18months and I run it at 60%. It runs cool (even at 100%) and is pretty efficient.

Scaling that up for your own needs would look something like:-

*30 Ohmite SA-LED-113E heatsinks ~£56*
These work out surprisingly cheap and don't weigh too much either.

*30 Cree xm-l2 leds on stars ~£105*
Run at 1000ma will give roughly 450lumens each if running cool, for a total of 13,500 lumens and 90watts power consumption.

*3 Meanwell LDD-1000H drivers ~£15*
So you would run 3 banks of 10 leds.

*48volt 100watt power supply £20-50*
You'll need a 48v volt supply and 100watts minimum. If you drop to more readily available lower voltage supplies, then you'll need more drivers and fewer leds running off each.

Once you've added something to mount and house the drivers and other odds and sods, you're looking at spending £200-220. That gives you a well spec'd build. You can reduce the costs in many ways. If you can source some material for the heatsink locally, you can knock a chunk off - but remember a 4 foot slice of heavy duty heatsink is going to weigh quite a lot There are plenty of cheaper LEDs - but I think xm-l2's are still the most efficient (I may be out of date here - but a quick google search didn't turn anything else up). If you're willing to shop around you can pick up power supplies at very good prices.

The driver and heatsink prices are from mouser.co.uk and I buy my LEDs from an eBay seller called 'ledbloke'.

There are a 1001 different options for controllers - probably a discussion for another day!

Something I would definitely look at for your tank is to add some lenses to say 1/3 of the leds. This would give you a good mix between coverage and light penetration. Personally I've never needed to use lenses (don't have a deep tank these days) but it should be relatively easy to do.

Any questions - feel free to ask. There are loads of details I've skipped over...

regards, Mark


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## markk (1 Jun 2016)

markk said:


> Most 'regular' LED fixtures have a spread of about 120-130degrees.
> 
> (As an aside, anyone with one of these units will confirm that the spread is actually closer to 180degrees but the light output drops off towards the extremes - as far as I can tell the manufacturers calculate the reported spread based on the angle at which the light output has dropped to 50% of its peak.)



and to prove the old maxim of 'you learn something new every day' - this is called 'Full Width at Half Maximum' or FWHM.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_width_at_half_maximum

It is commonly used to specify the spread on led lenses/optics.



markk said:


> There are plenty of cheaper LEDs - but I think xm-l2's are still the most efficient (I may be out of date here - but a quick google search didn't turn anything else up).



I am a little out of date - so for the benefit of anyone searching the forums

The Cree XP-L series are currently the most efficient. These peak at over 200lumens per watt at low current/low temperature - but a more typical output is around 155-160 lumens per watt. 

They are also a physically smaller LED so they are available as '3 up' packages - 3 LEDs in series on one star. (which can be useful for high output or compact designs).

The downsides are they are (even) more expensive and availability is more limited - with the cool whites more common (presumably as they are the most efficient).

Regards, Mark


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## Easternlethal (1 Jun 2016)

markk said:


> but I think xm-l2's are still the most efficient


I'm experimenting with xlamps now myself because i'm tired of wiring so many leds all the time. If only those stars were a big bigger I would love to be able to squeeze an xlamp and couple of violet / lime green xpgs and a fan onto it to make my very own kessil.


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## Gee (8 Jun 2016)

Thank you guys for talking about this in the right time, you guys made me save 200bucks I almost bough a LED lighting thinking this will resolved my problem.!...  
Ok.. but I am still confused on witch light should I do I already have a T5 HO with 4 bulbs  and my aquarium is 48”/60 Gallons, my problem is that the light is not reaching all the way down to the substrate and I they don’t perl my plants like babytears and helferi don’t progress after couple of weeks my babytears starts flying up to the surface and my helferi just melt if I move them they do fine. now according to your guys discussion I have to have enough PAR and Wattage so the lights can hit the bottom plants and they keep growing but the thing is my aquarium high is 20” I was told that (4 T5) should be more than enough but my bottom plants they dont survive, so I don’t know what else should I try, if anyone have any suggestion…


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## Easternlethal (9 Jun 2016)

have you tried looking at other things, like your flow? are they getting enough fresh co2 enriched water at the bottom?


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## Gee (9 Jun 2016)

Yes i do i even bough a circular water pump plus my filter i have a canister so i have plenti water flow,  and my CO2 checker is green every were i put it.


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## Easternlethal (10 Jun 2016)

Try bumping up co2. Most of the time it's possible to push it until the drop checker is greeny yellow or just yellow and won't bother the fish. Put your drop checker at the bottom right next to the carpet and make sure there's some surface agitation so excess co2 is able to escape.


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## ian_m (10 Jun 2016)

This is what you are aiming for with your drop checker directly above your carpeting plants, shown below (ok maybe not so yellow).





Provided you have sufficient surface agitation to provide oxygen and pearling plants to provide more oxygen, the fish don't care, as can be seen in this photo.


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## Gee (10 Jun 2016)

So that is the issue then  CO2 dead gap in the aquarium not a lighting problem   so if the CO2 bobble diffuser push all the bobbles up, how is the water circulation will bring them all the way down to the substrate if they are stay floating on top, how much water circulation do you need to bring the CO2 down.
But i will do a  CO2 test on the subs this weekend


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## Gee (13 Jun 2016)

Easternlethal said:


> Try bumping up co2.


What do you mean ..bumping CO2.


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