# Dragon's Grove



## Crossocheilus (3 Sep 2014)

Hi,
I have had two tanks previously but this is my first real high tech planted, aquascaped tank. 

So the preliminary stats:

Tank: ND Aquatics 90 x 45 x 45cm rimless braceless optiwhite

Cabinet: ND Aquatics custom design 90 x 45 x 75cm

Filters: 2x JBL e1501

Light: All Pond Solutions 4 39w slim

Co2: via UP new inline

Substrate: TMC Nutrasoil a bit over 15L

Rocks: 10kg of dragon stone from Aqua Essentials

Wood: Manzanita from Aquarium Gardens

So here's what I've got so far...






I hope you like it and please do critique, I'm always open to advice! The tank should be filled in a week or two so stay tuned.


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## Chris Jackson (3 Sep 2014)

Looks great, very well balanced with a real sense of depth. Personally I'm not a fan of white sand effects but I am probably in the minority there. Yours looks very well executed to me.


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## Crossocheilus (3 Sep 2014)

Each to their own, I myself am not 100% sure about it but this is how I have designed the scape so it is staying as it is. However for my next scape I will prob do an iwagumi which defo won't have any sand. The sand will look much better once the plants are in anyway. I may yet fiddle with the sand to perfect it, it feels perhaps too wide, we shall see. Thanks for replying its great to hear what others have to say.


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## Chris Jackson (3 Sep 2014)

Aye, that's all part of the fun...scape, stare, scape again, visualise...change mind, change again..take a break..rethink...curse...smile..sleep on it.........


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## Martin in Holland (4 Sep 2014)

I like the sand...in someone else's tank...to much work to keep clean . I might try it again in a the future, cause it does look nice and gives a good depth perception as you clearly see here.


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## Crossocheilus (5 Sep 2014)

Sorry not much of an update but I've slightly decreased the width of the sand, however I am worrying about the fact that it is almost perfectly in the middle of the tank at the front. The rule of thirds has kinda failed, so what do you guys think,  a problem or not?

Before





After


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## Crossocheilus (5 Sep 2014)

Top down view of sand:


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## Alastair (5 Sep 2014)

Lovely hardscape layout, I'd say the first sand layout was better. But will be pretty hard to change now. Maybe a slightly darker river bed like unipac maui/Fiji might have been better but still a nice layout either way


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## mr. luke (5 Sep 2014)

You could plant heavier on one side than the other to offset the fact the sand is central


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## Ben C (5 Sep 2014)

I think it will be ok if your planting is similarly dramatic. I'd want to see something really quite striking to detract slightly from the sand. 

I agree - plant heavier on one side. For me personally that would be the left.


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## Ady34 (12 Sep 2014)

Crossocheilus said:


> I am worrying about the fact that it is almost perfectly in the middle of the tank at the front. The rule of thirds has kinda failed, so what do you guys think, a problem or not?


Hi,
i think its fine, the heavier bias of the left hardscape gives the illusion of thirds 

Looks nice overall, will be nice to see it planted.

Cheerio,


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## Crossocheilus (12 Sep 2014)

Ady34 said:


> will be nice to see it planted.



I know I can't wait, but things are going very slow, it could be a while yet before it has water in...


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## Crossocheilus (16 Sep 2014)

So today I've hung the light and the glassware from Apfuk arrived, I'm very happy with it.










Sorry no plants yet 
Things left to do:
Get acrylic pipe for diy spray bars
Find somewhere to get CO2

Then...PLANT IT!


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## Wisey (16 Sep 2014)

Looking good! Hope all goes well for you. Will be watching this


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## Crossocheilus (16 Sep 2014)

Slow progress, but from what I've learnt on here I think I stand a decent chance of success, and of course you guys will be helping me every step of the way! At least I hope you will...?


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## Crossocheilus (6 Oct 2014)

Sorry guys still VERY little progress, life and school get in the way so it is taking a long time to gather the last few items. Got a co2 FE, yet to sort acrylic spraybars.

Also got some new fish in the temp tank:
10 pygmy cory
15 copper harlequins

Already had:
5 ottos
4 sterba's cory

And name change to: Dragon's Grove


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## Crossocheilus (6 Oct 2014)

A warts and all pic of temporary tank; because at least it has water in...


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## Crossocheilus (6 Oct 2014)

Inspired by Alastair's Oaklands, I'm considering some peat filtration/ red bush tea? to acidify and add tannins, this tank is kinda an experiment.


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## Chris Jackson (6 Oct 2014)

Slow is good...plenty of time to reflect and savour! Red Bush tea...cool idea for a biotope


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## Crossocheilus (6 Oct 2014)

My favourite part of the tank, the leaves form caves that the pygmy cories like to hide in.

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/andy-ds-splendid-tank.33280/

This is where I got the idea for the redbush tea.


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## Greenfinger2 (7 Oct 2014)

Hi Crossocheilus, Great Little temporary tank  Looking forward to seeing the high tech come together now


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## Crossocheilus (7 Oct 2014)

2 Asda redbush (rooibos) tea bags in a small internal filter have done well in just 3 hours, not bad. No negative signs from the fish. I forgot to do a before/ after ph test I'm afraid. However I may add another bag in a day or two, but I do need to check ph.

I was gonna add a pic but the camera just can't pick up the tannins, I assure you it looks good, very natural.


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## Richard Dowling (7 Oct 2014)

Crossocheilus said:


> So today I've hung the light and the glassware from Apfuk arrived, I'm very happy with it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can I ask where you got your ceiling hooks and whether they are just screwed into plaster or whether they screw into timbers inside the ceiling?


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## Crossocheilus (7 Oct 2014)

They are were bought at (I think) homebase, they go into the plaster and have sprung plates that open on the other side of the plaster to increase the surface area it is hung on. They hold the weight fine but I wouldn't lean on the light or put to much force on it just in case.



 
The wedge shape parts are the bits with a spring that fan out and thus give improved support and strength. To fir it you just drill a large enough hole to slot it through when closed. The fins spring open and hold it in place, you then just tighten it and you are done.


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## ADA (7 Oct 2014)

Good old butterfly fixings


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## Crossocheilus (8 Oct 2014)

So update on the Rooibos teabags:
I have just made some concentrate and here is how the tank now looks. I'm afraid my phone camera can't really see the tannins (?) But this is what I got:













Pic number 1 actually shows the tannins the best, it looks very similar to what I am seeing.


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## Crossocheilus (15 Dec 2014)

*Plants ordered and due Thursday*

Just enough time to connect up CO2. 

Acrylic has arrived for spray bars, however I can't access a pillar drill any more so while have to construct a sort of frame thing to keep everything aligned when drilling with a hand power drill. Is a drill bit for metal the best (that's what wikihow said)?


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## ADA (15 Dec 2014)

Use a very small 1mm metal bit, they norm come in packs of 5 from somewhere decent, then grab a couple of 1.5mm and 2mm I wouldn't go any bigger as will lose flow. Best thing I've found to hold it with is clamping down with soft edged g clamps.


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## Crossocheilus (15 Dec 2014)

So you suggest I work up from 1 - 1.5 - 2mm? I was hoping I could go straight for 2mm. Btw I will do 27 2mm holes as it is on three sections of jbl spraybar.


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## ADA (17 Dec 2014)

I'm just saying acrylic can split and shatter so I'd start small just in case


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## Lindy (17 Dec 2014)

I've  never had acrylic tubing shatter and I've  gone straight  for the size of hole needed. I don't  have any fancy equipment for holding tubing but have found a bit of decking board is perfect to sit the tube on and then i use my foot to hold the tube in place. The decking stops the tube from scooting away under your foot.


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## Crossocheilus (22 Dec 2014)

Nearly 6 hours of planting and filling later:





Plants are:
Rotala rotundifola sp. Green
Micranthemum Monte Carlo
Eleocharis sp. Mini
Java fern Trident
Hypgrophila pinnatifida
Hydroctyle tripartita

Will be adding:
Ludwigia (unknown exactly what type)
Pogostemon helferi
And maybe some more colourful stems amongst the rotala.

There were various floaters and a bit of substrate collapse due to the hose slipping and blasting the substrate. Still need to pick all the soil off the sand.

I still need to:

Sort out a white background (the blue is the wall)
Set up the FE CO2
At some point do acrylic spraybars
Buy some pogostemon helferi for the middle background
Add my ludwigia from my emersed grower
Remove soil from sand

All in all I am very happy, can't wait to finish setting up and start enjoying (and maintaining) it.

I won't be adding fish for at least 2 or 3 weeks.

Thanks for all the help and advice ukaps, couldn't have done it without you guys! 

I hope you like it and please do criticize and advise.


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## Crossocheilus (23 Dec 2014)

Co2 up and running at approx 4bps however the drop checker is yet to turn yellow. As there are no livestock I plan to run co2 quite high.

Currently runnning:
4bps, starting 2 hours before lights on, off 1 hour before lights
Ei dosing
2 39w tubes on 6 hours a day


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## Crossocheilus (23 Dec 2014)

This is the colour of my drop checker 15 minutes after co2 turned off. The solution is CO2Art drop checker solution, it was green out of the bottle, not blue like in the tutorial vids. The CO2 came on 7 hours ago. I have checked for leaks with soapy water and found nothing, is it fine or do I need to go to 5 or 6bps (bearing in mind that people use different bubble counters so not very accurate or general).


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## foxfish (23 Dec 2014)

You can occasionally come across someone on the forum who quotes using 2-3BPS on a 180l tank but generally speaking you need to pump in the gas to get a yellow DC.
On my 200l - 2kg last about 10 weeks but the bc is impossible to read.


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## Crossocheilus (24 Dec 2014)

Hmm I guess I just have to go beyond what I can count,  no fish, so no harm in increasing co2.


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## Crossocheilus (4 Jan 2015)

Update time!

Everything (except hairgrass) is showing signs of growth and overall progress has been very good after nearly 2 weeks, no algae in sight 





Also bought a few extra plants from Aquarium Gardens:

More hydrocotyle tripartita
More flame moss
More microsorum trident
Pogostemon helferi (a bit dissapointed because it was very squashed and a minimal quantity for 2 portions.
Ludwigia mini super red
Rotala rotunifolia

I need to buy some pog. Helferi in my lfs MA.

Here are some more pics showing good growth and the lime green dc:



























The hairgrass really suffered from an accidental 2 day blackout when I went away- set up timers but forgot to turn on the power... 





Thanks for looking!

The above was written with my cat happily purring while sinking her claws into my knees


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## Crossocheilus (4 Jan 2015)

Beginning to wonder if it would look better without the sand and just with the carpet plants continued? I will of course wait until the tank is well established before I make a decision but would like to know what you think.


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## tim (5 Jan 2015)

Lovely scape, re the pathway maybe some moss stones along the edge of the path would soften it a little, it seems to detract from the scape a little, saying that it would look good completely carpeted IMO, good job so far.


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## ADA (5 Jan 2015)

tim said:


> Lovely scape, re the pathway maybe some moss stones along the edge of the path would soften it a little, it seems to detract from the scape a little, saying that it would look good completely carpeted IMO, good job so far.



Good idea, will keep it much cleaner too.


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## Crossocheilus (11 Jan 2015)

Things aren't entirely going to plan-






There has been considerable growth however significant melting as well. I am afraid it seems that new and old leaves are melting,  but only on the monte carlo. My flow is as close to perfect as possible (2x 1400lph with full length spraybars and minimal media). I am dosing ei. Light is 2x 39w T5 15cm from surface. 2 hours into my photoperiod and drop checker looks like this:





My tank did suffer an accidental 2 day blackout after just being planted but all other plants except hairgrass which is also in very bad shape, are fine, and that was 2 weeks ago.

Any advice (other than more CO2 and patience which is my best guess)


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## Crossocheilus (11 Jan 2015)

Since everything except the dwarf haigrass and monte carlo are fine I am considering just buying more and potentially replace what is there with healthy plants. Although I would expect that in a high tech they would recover quickly, unless params are off, in which case why is everything else healthy...


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## Crossocheilus (11 Jan 2015)

On a more positive note I finally got some very good pogostemon helferi and some pogostemon stellatus from my local Maidenhead Aquatics.


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## REDSTEVEO (11 Jan 2015)

Crossocheilus said:


> So update on the Rooibos teabags:
> I have just made some concentrate and here is how the tank now looks. I'm afraid my phone camera can't really see the tannins (?) But this is what I got:
> 
> 
> ...


Hi, sorry to hijack the thread, is the light unit in the second picture above an Arcadia Stretch LED? If so how did you find it from a lighting point of view?


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## Crossocheilus (11 Jan 2015)

No problem steve, 

I only use it for the floating plants, it has individually switched white and pink leds and with both channels on the colour is a little too pink but its still a perfectly nice colour rendition, if a little on the pink side. On a larger tank you may need two in order to get medium to high light and penetration through the depth of water.

Not sure about price as I got mine with a pfk subscription so was free/cheap.

They are basic compared to some (no dimming or built in timers) but for a basic led light it is slim and effective.


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## tim (11 Jan 2015)

Melt is normally a sign co2 isn't optimum, trim of the melted parts and anything healthy will bounce back as long as conditions are favourable. I would be tempted to shorten the spray bars so each filter covers half the tank, the way you have them setup one could be disrupting the other or the filters could be lacking due to the length of the bars, you can also dim the lighting or raise it further from the tank whilst you get on top of the issues.


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## Crossocheilus (11 Jan 2015)

Hmm obviously something is wrong but I can clearly see the co2 mist being pushed right down to the substrate. Just did a pH profile and got a 1 point drop even with 170ppm KH (CaCO3) however I have been tinkering around with co2 so levels are changing quite a bit. Got it set at a good rate now so will leave it and hope things start to improve. Could the plant still be reeling from 2 day blackout during the vital change form emmersed to submerged?


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## Crossocheilus (11 Jan 2015)

The odd thing is that everything else is growing well. Perhaps some are more resilient than others and some thus are still greatly weakened from a blackout and then low co2 for the first vital week in the tank? Sound reasonable?


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## Greenfinger2 (11 Jan 2015)

Hi Crossocheilus, 
The HC will suffer Die back  But the plant will recover once it gets its roots down new leaves will appear and then runners this could take about a month then the plant will just take off


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## Crossocheilus (11 Jan 2015)

Monte carlo btw 

Perhaps. What troubled me that with my rotala sp green I can see that old emmersed growth die back and new healthy shoot quickly replace it. However with my monte carlo it seemed to start spreading well then started to melt and now it seems to be growing and melting at an equal rate  seeing as everything else is happy it is tempting to remove the monte carlo and dwarf haigrass and just replace with fresh tropica 12 grow  but I'm probably just being impatient.


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## Crossocheilus (11 Jan 2015)

I guess I'll give it another few weeks at a higher and more stable co2 level, if I see no improvement and everything else continues to flourish I will have to just buy more I suppose. It's frustrating because I tried to do it all by the book.
I've also just noticed a tiny amount of algae on the front glass but tbh the first 3 weeks and no algae is quite an achievement.


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## Greenfinger2 (11 Jan 2015)

Sorry 

Leave it please  It will bounce back  Plants do not do it by the book  Ever


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## ceg4048 (11 Jan 2015)

Lighting intensity and flow/distribution should be investigated. This is a CO2 fault...obviously...

Cheers,


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## Crossocheilus (11 Jan 2015)

I knew you'd say that 

So what I'm hoping is that it WAS a co2 issue that is now fixed and hopefully the affected plants will begin to recover.

Now fixed=
Lime-yellow drop checker
1 point pH drop
Overkill flow through 2x full length spraybars (2800lph total in 180 litre tank)
Normal EI dosing
2x 39W T5 with reflectors, 15cm from water and 60cm from substrate


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## ceg4048 (12 Jan 2015)

Should do the trick!

Cheers,


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## viktorlantos (12 Jan 2015)

If this was a tissue MC (as far as i know this plant is mainly available in this form) the melting could be also because of the washing preparation.
This typically visible after 2 weeks like in your tank. Sometimes it happens if we plant in a rush. The first 2 weeks went really smoothly plant looked awesome on your photo.


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## Crossocheilus (12 Jan 2015)

I thought I prepared it ok, washed jelly off with lukewarm tap water then separated into smaller clumps and planted into wet substrate with pinsettes. I didn't do anything unusually violent to it, but if it is a very fragile plant that could be at least part of the explanation.


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## Andy Thurston (12 Jan 2015)

My drop checker is this colour


 
Bright yellow not green all my fish/shrimp seem happy enough.
I dont seem to have much luck with tissue culture plants either. 
Ps i always expect some melt from physical damage after planting but i am heavy handed


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## Crossocheilus (12 Jan 2015)

My drop checker is in three pieces right now after I tried to change the indicator

*Sigh*

Anyway mine was getting to that colour by the end of the photoperiod but at lights on its lime, is that okay or should I extend the time before lights on with co2 from 2 to 3 hours?


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## ian_m (13 Jan 2015)

After having broken numerous glass drop checkers, including quite thick glass expensive ones (£12) and numerous Ebay cheapies (3 for £7 from Hong Kong), I have now settled in the JBL one, as in the definitive CO2 drop checker article by Ceg. My JBL one has been dropped and generally abused and doesn't break. Other advantage is the white strip in it, enabling the drop checker to be easily read.


 
Ceg's drop checker.


 
My drop checker


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## Crossocheilus (13 Jan 2015)

Looks like I'll be getting one of those as backup then! I will still buy a new glass one though, who can resist a shiny bit of glass?


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## ian_m (13 Jan 2015)

Crossocheilus said:


> who can resist a shiny bit of glass?


My feeling as well, but in the end I broke them all whilst cleaning them, either dropped them in the sink or snapped them when brushing the outside to get algae off.


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## Chris Jackson (13 Jan 2015)

I agree re the shiny glass but you might want to consider ditching the drop checker in favour of a ph probe/ meter. I don't miss a drop checker at all...


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## Crossocheilus (13 Jan 2015)

Chris Jackson said:


> ditching the drop checker in favour of a ph probe/ meter. I don't miss a drop checker at all...



You are definitely right. What sort of price is it for a decent reliable pH meter and some calibration liquid. Can you recommend a brand or a good place to buy one?


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## Chris Jackson (13 Jan 2015)

Sorry I can't help you very much there. I'm using a probe with an old Dennerle digital PH controller I've got but there is a good selection here http://www.digital-meters.com/chemical-analysis-c2/ph-meters-c28 I'd be a tad suspicious of the cheapest ones mind, get a goodish one with the option to replace the probe as these wear out. This looks good to me http://www.digital-meters.com/chemi...with-replaceable-electrode-hanna-hi-99104-p62 but this is just what I've found from some quick searching. I've found that electrodes and calibration solutions are generally better value from non aquarium specific shops.


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## Greenfinger2 (13 Jan 2015)

Hi There, Why ???? Just watch the plants  They will let you know


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## Chris Jackson (14 Jan 2015)

Greenfinger2 said:


> Hi There, Why ???? Just watch the plants  They will let you know



Hi, Yes they let you know something is wrong but it takes an awful lot of experience to know exactly what they are saying and it can be species specific, plus there's an awful lot of species to learn to listen to. Is the MC melting because of CO2 water and fert issues or because it is still just settling into its new environment? I suspect mostly the latter but I don't know for sure. Knowing the PH profile in real time can only help us gain better understanding for the management of these variables.


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## ceg4048 (14 Jan 2015)

Chris Jackson said:


> Is the MC melting because of CO2 water and fert issues or because it is still just settling into its new environment?


It's really not very complicated. We complicate things because of our refusal to realize the truth. 
Melting only ever occurs due to poor CO2 uptake and has nothing to do with water or fertilizer. It's the same story for every plant.

Cheers,


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## Chris Jackson (15 Jan 2015)

ceg4048 said:


> It's really not very complicated. We complicate things because of our refusal to realize the truth.
> Melting only ever occurs due to poor CO2 uptake and has nothing to do with water or fertilizer. It's the same story for every plant.
> 
> Cheers,



Well personally I so want to realise and accept that truth.

In the past before I joined this forum and started stressing about CO2 and flow I'd just plant things like Eusteralis Stellata and watch the leaves die back before new growth took over and the thing would then grow so rampantly that I'd tire of it, similar with Didiplis Diandra as I recall. Seemed to be normal behaviour.

Is this type of emerssed growth die back thing is totally avoidable with better CO2 management? 

Crossochelius here seems to be doing everything right but is still having issues and I've got some Juncus Repens added on Christmas Eve that is behaving in a similar manner...


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## ceg4048 (15 Jan 2015)

Yes it's possible but the level of difficulty is related to the amount of light, temperature, as well as whether or not fauna are present. An easy way to curtail the loss is to float the new plants for a week or so prior to planting.

Cheers,


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## Crossocheilus (16 Jan 2015)

ceg4048 said:


> An easy way to curtail the loss is to float the new plants for a week or so prior to planting.



Never heard of that before, could you explain what is involved and the reason it works? Obviously it's not a possibility for me now but it sounds interesting.


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## ceg4048 (16 Jan 2015)

Crossocheilus said:


> Never heard of that before, could you explain what is involved and the reason it works? Obviously it's not a possibility for me now but it sounds interesting.



I think the biggest failure in tank startup is due an assumption by hobbyists that just because a plant is aquatic, then this automatically means that the plant can adapt immediately to live under water or that the plant prefers to be submerged There are only a handful of plants that live 100% of the time in water. For half the year, normally in the dry season, the aquatic plant is dry and lives like any typical terrestrial plant. The leaf structure during this time is adapted to being suspended in air. The movement of CO2 and other gases such as oxygen is through the pores (stomata) on the leaf. These are basically ventilation holes. When the wind blows, like a flute, the pressure differences across these stomata facilitate movement of the gases through the leaf. Look at the cross sectional diagram here:





Terrestrial leaves are built to protect itself from bacteria, pests and water intrusion. Look at the image and note that the outermost  layers of the leaf are coated with something called a cuticle, which is basically the "fingernail" of the leaf. This is a hard, water repellent, waxy substance that gives leaves that shiny appearance.

So imagine that I now take this leaf and dunk it under water. Do you think this mechanism can still work effectively as it did in air? Those air spaces, where critical gas exchange occurs so easily in air get flooded. CO2, Oxygen and other gasses move 10,000 time more slowly in water than they do in air. The leaf literally drowns. The plant has to make a new leaf structure that works in water, not in air.

Haven't you ever noticed that the shape and appearance of a submersed plant is entirely different than when you buy it from the nursery? The submersed leaves are spongy, slippery and flaccid, dries out and crumbles easily if left too long out of water. In submersed leaves the composition of the cuticle has to change. It has to allow more water and gas to penetrate, so it either becomes much thinner, becomes less hydrophobic, or disappears entirely. This allows gases and nutrients to move directly to the sites that use them instead of depending solely on the vascular transport mechanisms.

In natural habitats, when the rainy season starts, the flood waters rise relatively slowly. This gives the plant time to trigger the changes while still allowing them to breathe through the upper leaves. The stems elongate to keep the upper leaves out of the water as long as possible while the areas that are submerged start to grow new leaf structure.

The temperature falls. Gasses dissolve better as the water is cooler.

The water gets cloudy or murky. This reduces the PAR where the new leaves are growing and reduces their requirement for CO2 uptake.

The Matrix programs us to dump plants in water, to avoid feeding nutrients and to zap them immediately with megawattage. Do you still think this is wise?

When you float the plants it helps to trigger the change to a submersed form while still allowing some leaves to breathe. In a way, it's like handing them a snorkel.

You can still do all these small things to help new arrivals as well as during start up. Reduce the lighting for a few weeks, lower the temperature and float some plants. Of course it's not practical for some plants like carpet plants or mosses, which are difficult enough to get them rooted in the substrate, but it is very helpful for difficult plants.

Cheers,


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## Michael W (16 Jan 2015)

ceg4048 said:


> You can still do all these small things to help new arrivals as well as during start up.



Hi Clive, 

I too do this for emersed growth that  introduce in my tank, but from that comment do you imply that this method will also be affect for plants that were previously grown in a high tech which will be planted in a low tech environment?


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## ceg4048 (16 Jan 2015)

Hi Michael,
                  Apologies for being unclear. If you purchase plants which have already being submersed, then of course, the transformation is not an issue. However, no one knows how much CO2 and nutrition the plant was adapted to in the original tank compared to YOUR tank. A plant will suffer CO2 failure if the new CO2 value is less than what it was previously, even if both CO2 values are high tech...just being high tech really means nothing to the plant. It's entirely possible that the previous owner's tank had better CO2 management (i.e. flow distribution and so forth) than you do. Or maybe that tank had less light than you do. There are lot's of different possibilities, so the safest thing to do is to lower the light and temperature for the new arrival, just in case your CO2 isn't as good as the tank from which they came.

Hope this clarifies...

Cheers,


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## Crossocheilus (16 Jan 2015)

So this raises the question of why so many people buy emersed grown plants. I know they travel better but a few mashed leaves versus an entire structural reset seems preferable, doesn't it?


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## Patrick Buff. (17 Jan 2015)

Hi, crossocheilus.
Clive is right about it and his explanation. The plants what are being sold to use are mostly emersed grown and you don't no how. I now that a lot of the nursery are giving they a lot of nutrition to them to survive the first weeks. When this is used by them in a submersed state and are not giving it by a lfs when you buy then they are already in a state of dying, you can see this by there roots. The trick is to get healty again and floating is one of them. What I do is getting a small part of the plants when I buy them and grow them emersed. When you do this it is easy to grow more from them and they do adapt better when you submersed them again. If I were you I would take out some mc. and grow them emersed ( I have mc growing in a small cub all year around on a window shelf).

Patrick


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## ceg4048 (17 Jan 2015)

Yeah, plants grow 10X easier (and probably 10X cheaper) out of water than when grown submersed. No algae to worry about, plenty of free CO2 etc. Some plants take ages to transform so it's always better to buy submersed specimens if available. Other plants transform more easily. As I mentioned, simply procedures to facilitate their transformation (like not zapping them with photon torpedoes)  is all that is needed in most cases.

Cheers,


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## Crossocheilus (17 Jan 2015)

Co2 just ran out 

Less than a month, 2kg fe, I checked for leaks using water and washing up liquid a few times and found nothing.

So to summarise:

Good flow
Ridiculous co2 rate
Ei 
medium light
Liquid carbon

Gets me melting plants and recently - algae.

Garrrrhhh I'm already understanding the people who go low tech and love it. 

So what to do

I'm thinking go to 1 39w t5?
Clean diffuser (up new atomizer) or even different diffusion method - what do you use Ceg?
Maybe dose less potassium phosphate (need to think about this but I saw that someone said it increases growth rates thus co2 demand - any thoughts?)
I doubt my flow needs increasing but I could add a 1000lph eheim compact pump
Double dose liquid carbon

In the mean time I am not sure what to do, I can get co2 set up for Monday afternoon/evening so probably just ambient light for 2 days? But my hairgrass was just recovering from the accidental blackout 

Thinking about it I could get a jbl 500g co2 from maidenhead if I leave soon even if it does cost £20  (2kg fe £10)


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## Greenfinger2 (17 Jan 2015)

Hi You could use carbonated water for a few days to supply the C02 your plants need


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## Crossocheilus (17 Jan 2015)

Really? Surely that is really expensive? How can you work out how much to dose? Isn't liquid carbon and really low light the best option for 2 days?


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## Andy Thurston (17 Jan 2015)

Dont halfords disposable welding co2 fit the jbl reg. last time i bought one it cost £16


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## Chris Jackson (17 Jan 2015)

I'd go really low light, like maybe just ambient light, and a 50% water change and not worry about it until you can get a new FE. Shouldn't hurt the plants and the algae won't like it.


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## ceg4048 (18 Jan 2015)

Crossocheilus said:


> I'm thinking go to 1 39w t5?
> Clean diffuser (up new atomizer) or even different diffusion method - what do you use Ceg?
> Maybe dose less potassium phosphate (need to think about this but I saw that someone said it increases growth rates thus co2 demand - any thoughts?)
> I doubt my flow needs increasing but I could add a 1000lph eheim compact pump
> ...


Hi mate,
            Just turn the lights off for the couple of days that you will be without the gas. Again, try sending the gas directly through the filter and skip the reactor, just to see if it helps. Check with the BOC and you can get much larger cylinders.

Cheers,


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## Crossocheilus (25 Jan 2015)

So I've got the co2 back up and running since Monday last week. Plants still in a similar state, maybe less melt but still unhealthy and I'm getting quite a lot of diatoms and a brown thread algae on older/unhealthy leaves.





Haigrass looking a little greener





The moss remains totally happy for some reason.





On a slightly more positive note I got 6 threadfin rainbowfish from MA on Sat and they've been feasting on daphnia from the pond.

Tried and failed to take any pics...

Need to order

Microworms
pH meter
Dropcheckers
Monte carlo (new plants, not invitro, not much,  just a test)


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## Crossocheilus (25 Jan 2015)

Looking at my tank it certainly ain't dim  so maybe I could go to 1 39w tube or chuck some floaters in their? I'm also yet to try Co2 into the filter inlet, before I do so has anyone with a jbl done this without any damage?


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## Crossocheilus (25 Jan 2015)

Oh and what is the best cure to diatoms, I'm guessing more CO2 and more water changes?  I should really be doing more water changes (currently doing 50% per week) seeing as I have got algae and poor plant health.


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## Chris Jackson (25 Jan 2015)

Hi again,
Well for sure more water changes, the melt and die back will br creating ammonia that won't help anything accept algae maybe 30% every other day for a while if you can manage it. Remove dying leaves daily.

Less light, maybe 5 hours on one lamp with the second lamp on for just the fourth hour as well.

Get some amano shrimp 1 per 5 ltr if you can because those guys are the top clean up dudes. Check this http://tropica.com/en/guide/algal-control/

Then suss out your CO2 with drop checker or pen.

Be patient, it looks like everything is growing, it's just going to need a fair bit of work for the next few weeks...


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## Crossocheilus (31 Jan 2015)

So all the stuff I ordered has arrived. Drop checker is in and I've upped co2 to a lime green. Tomorrow I should be able to do a full pH profile with the pH meter. A tiny bit of new monte carlo went in the tank as a test, the rest of the pot went into my emersed propagator. Unfortunately the pogostemon helferi has melted quite a bit (even though it was bought submerged!) however I am seeing healthy new growth so it may well come back.

My microworm cultures are up and running and yesterday I did my first feed- both my copper harlequins and threadfins tucked in. How often can I feed them microworms, is their any harm in feeding daily?


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## ceg4048 (31 Jan 2015)

Picture 1 of post #84 looks like there is some kind of pump with it's outflow spud pointing perpendicular to the flow of the spraybars. Is that just an optical illusion on my part, or is that real? If it's real it's incorrect.

Blackouts will resolve the diatomic bloom. perhaps still too much light, can't recall.

Cheers,


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## Crossocheilus (31 Jan 2015)

That's right 

I know its not recommended, its a 400lph eheim skim on the lowest setting and I reckon its ok as its right at the back towards the top, so not interfering hugely with the circular flow from the spraybars.


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## Crossocheilus (9 Feb 2015)

pH Profile:




Co2 on 1
Lights on 4
Co2 off 9
Lights off 10

However I am really confused as my pH calibrated pH meter says that tank water rested for 24hrs has a pH of 8.42 which would suggest a pH drop of 1.80 in Kh 9.5 water?? Yet my plants show signs of co2 deficiency (diatoms + some melt) I have good flow and 2 39W T5s.

And at a pH drop of 1 my drop checker shows:


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## ceg4048 (10 Feb 2015)

Check flow/distribution mate. Has the filter clogged etc. etc. etc.?
Might also need to tweak the injection rate.
Very unusual to have a strongly alkaline water in a tank, which mostly produces acids.

Cheers,


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## Crossocheilus (10 Feb 2015)

I will test some tap water when I get home. I cleaned my filters at the weekend and removed floss so flow is nice and high again. Also trimmed rotala sp green and hydrocotyle. What is the best way to get rid of diatoms, as I see none on my (healthy) moss I assume plant health is the key here.


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## Crossocheilus (10 Feb 2015)

I think I didn't describe the current plant situation quite right in my last post. I am not seeing any fresh melt, however:

Monte carlo- partially covered in diatoms, no more melt

Rotala- lower/old growth has some algae and looks stunted, fresh growth grows very slowly but is a much healthier shape (larger leaves) and has no algae.

Hydrocotyle- lower/old leaves have algae- fresh growth is healthy and growth rate has been ok but not super fast.

Flame moss- really full and healthy with just a few strands of hair algae

Pinnatifida- no growth and plenty of algae.

Hair grass- slowly growing back looks fairly healthy but quite a pale green, not much algae, localised to debris.

Pogostemon helferi- lots of melt when first added (submerged form) but seeing plenty of fresh growth at crown.

Pogostemon stellata- algae and lost lower leaves- choked by rotala- fresh growth at crown.

Rotala wallichi- lower growth dying (emersed) fresh (green) growth from crown.

So the algae:

Diatoms

Hair (could be staghorn)


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## ceg4048 (11 Feb 2015)

Yes, these symptoms confirm poor CO2/flow/distribution.

Best way to get rid of diatoms is a blackout.



Crossocheilus said:


> I know its not recommended, its a 400lph eheim skim on the lowest setting and I reckon its ok as its right at the back towards the top, so not interfering hugely with the circular flow from the spraybars.


Maybe your reckoned wrong. That 400LPH should be used for more productive purposes. Skimmers, Twinstars, heater cables...these are all constructs of The Matrix. Wake up, Neo.

Cheers,


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## Crossocheilus (11 Feb 2015)

Fixed.

1 less thing to consider.

Also added some floaters:





And I'm raising the light to 25cm from the water surface.


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## Chris Jackson (11 Feb 2015)

Red pill then


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## Crossocheilus (11 Feb 2015)

I figure something has to change and you know more than I, so either I follow the advice of those with results or follow my mine own misguided hunches so:

Red pill it is...

Blackout and maybe some big water changes sounds like a good idea to reset everything. I am worried that already weak plants may suffer the blackout to some extent, what length is good?

After a blackout what should I do? Making sure CO2 is optimal, keep doing the same? Again, Ceg/Chris you have the results, but I feel flow is not the (biggest) issue as I can see some movement even at the base of plants at the back and plants in high flow areas are not flourishing either so it clearly isn't quite that simple.


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## tim (11 Feb 2015)

Crossocheilus said:


> And I'm raising the light to 25cm from the water surface.


30-40 cm away would be more appropriate IMO, looks like you've bombarded the plants with light on start up, when my 3ft was running optimum lush growth was achieved with 2x39w 30 cm above the top of the tank


.


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## Crossocheilus (11 Feb 2015)

Wow 

Now that's lush!

Thanks for the advice, I will do, annoyingly though I don't think my hanging kit can go down so once at that height I'm stuck with it.


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## Crossocheilus (11 Feb 2015)

Some emersed alteranthera from my propogator that I added at the weekend is not melting and instead is putting out new growth! I am feeling slightly confident that the things I have done may be just what is needed to turn this tank around. I am also seeing less diatoms on the monte carlo than a few weeks ago, fingers crossed, things will start to go better now.


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## Chris Jackson (11 Feb 2015)

Crossocheilus said:


> After a blackout what should I do? Making sure CO2 is optimal, keep doing the same? Again, Ceg/Chris you have the results, but I feel flow is not the (biggest) issue as I can see some movement even at the base of plants at the back and plants in high flow areas are not flourishing either so it clearly isn't quite that simple.



Ah well Ceg is the real expert but from where I'm sitting I'd suggest that you are already on the road to recovery. Algae takes hold swiftly...plants recover slowly but it seems your plants are now at least recovering. 

The basic premise is that vibrant healthy plants are highly resistant to algae so focus on growing the plants and worry less about eradicating algae. Reducing light intensity/duration reduces the demands on everything and also offers less encouragement to algae. Your PH profile looks pretty OK to me and I wouldn't worry too much about the 1.8 drop, I have similar if I leave a glass of water to settle for 24hrs. It seems that accurately measuring CO2 availability is extremely difficult but the KH/PH is a very useful reference point to start from. 

Next up it's watching the plants and gradually learning what is healthy growth and what is not so healthy growth, what is too yellowy or pale etc. etc. the learning never stops. At this stage you have a lot of potential pollution and ammonia generation possible from all the plant melt so meticulous housekeeping is required. It's also possible that you've built up a bit of a fertiliser soup from continuously adding more than is required for current growth and then not doing big enough water changes to reset the levels. So a few big water changes will help get you back to square one and then estimate your EI ferts around current growth levels but by no means under dosing. You might also want to consider night time aeration for a while at least to boost O2 availability for all those helpful bacteria until the plants start pumping out copious amounts by virtue of their vigorous growth.


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## Crossocheilus (11 Feb 2015)

Sounds like a plan

Half term coming up so lots of water changes and general upkeep possible.

I don't have any timers left to run my air pump (Homebase didn't have any last time I checked ) but will try to sort something out.


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## tim (12 Feb 2015)

You can twist one of your spraybars each evening to slightly break the water surface for aeration, if it's not too inconvenient untill you get your timer sorted, you just have to twist it back into position each morning so as not to cause poor co2 for the day, it certainly sound like you have done your research and are getting the scape back on track, look forward to some updated pics soon


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## Crossocheilus (12 Feb 2015)

Once everything's growing healthier and algae is a thing of the past I'll try taking some better pics, and of course add some fish/shrimp!


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## Chris Jackson (12 Feb 2015)

Crossocheilus said:


> Once everything's growing healthier and algae is a thing of the past I'll try taking some better pics, and of course add some fish/shrimp!



Don't be shy on the Amano shrimps.. the photo and text below is taken from the Tropica site http://tropica.com/en/guide/algal-control/







> The picture above shows how efficient the Amano shrimp is when it comes to keeping a plant aquarium free from algae. The aquarium to the left had 3 shrimps, the one in the middle had none, while the one to the right had one shrimp during the start-up. They were all planted in the same way: 3 Anubias barteri var. nana and 3 Eleocharis parvula. The picture has been taken 3 months after the start-up. It is experiments like these that make Tropica recommend 1 Amano shrimp per 5 L water during the start-up of a new plant aquarium. Once a biological balance has been achieved in the aquarium, you can easily settle for fewer shrimps - e.g. 1 per 15 L water. However, if you have many fish that you feed, then we recommend that you maintain the population of 1 Amano shrimp per 5 L water.


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## Crossocheilus (12 Feb 2015)

I'm thinking 20 amanos, as even that will be V. Expensive at £3.00 each so £60! Tropica recommend 36 for my tank which would cost £108 just for shrimp, that won't even breed! I will also have some cherries, which I will probably see if I can get cheap in the sale section of the forum. I will also have 10 ottos as part of the cleanup crew.

Sounds reasonable?


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## Crossocheilus (12 Feb 2015)

Just tested a copper harlequin in the tank and even in the net it immediately became very lethargic so I put him straight back into my lowtech. Until things have really changed for the better plant-wise I don't want to decrease CO2 so no fish/shrimp for a while yet.


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## Chris Jackson (12 Feb 2015)

All sounds reasonable to me and it's a shame the Amanos are so costly... It seems that anything remotely linked to Mr A comes with a high end price tag!


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## Crossocheilus (26 Feb 2015)

Well after I found a major leak in my UP diffuser I contacted CO2Art who promptly sent a replacement with the new stronger body. This coincided with a FE running out. I have now installed the new diffuser and fe. Tomorrow everything should be up and running as usual, hopefully with a mich lower bubble rate, so longer lasting fe s.


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## Crossocheilus (1 Mar 2015)

Well the bubble rate isn't as low as I was hoping but the new diffuser is doing a good job, getting a nice lime green dc. But the big news is two tester fish from my other tank are doing really well with the fairly high co2. I am happy to add the rest of my 15 copper harlequins at some point this week. Next thing is to source some amano and red cherry shrimp, try to catch my other fish: sterba's cories (need more), ottos (need more), threadfin rainbowfish (need more).

Once all these fish are out of the small tank (65l) I may set it up as a softwater breeder for some liquorice and chocolate gourami.

I have also set up a nephrolepsis fern in some orchid substrate (bark chippings and moss) in a plastic box that had some chocolates in, on the back of the tank, I'm quite proud of it:





Plants generally doing pretty well, still some old ragged bits but new growth is quite lush.

I trimmed the flame moss (made a right mess) but I'm still not very happy with it. Considering trying spiky moss, I want a taxiphyllum species so it has a chance of attaching. Or I could use fissidens/riccardia but I think a dry start is best for even coverage with these, and they are slow growers.

Just made a little skimmer guard:





That's about it for now. Slowly but surely I am sorting this tank out, with the addition of livestock I hope I can finally begin to enjoy and appreciate this slice of nature.


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## Chris Jackson (7 Apr 2015)

How's it going now?


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## Crossocheilus (7 Apr 2015)

Thanks for reminding me, I've been meaning to do a proper update.
I have added:

20 amano shrimp
17 cherry shrimp
25 copper harlequins
5 threadfin rainbow fish
4 ottos
4 sterba's cories
1 bamboo filter shrimp

I syphoned out the sand as it was covered in aqausoil and looked a mess and relaced with some spare aqausoil. I planted some MC trimmings in it and they are beginning to spread.

CO2 is now running 3 hours before lights on at 6bps with the latest UP inline after my old one leaked. This gets a nice lime dc an hour into the photoperiod. The skimmer no longer runs during the CO2 period, I found this degassed a lot.

Algae is minimal, no melt (apart from my hygrophila pinniatifida), good growth. I tried more light but saw some bba/staghorn a day after so have stayed with 2 T5s, using liquid carbon to kill the few tufts.

I have some sylvannia 865 39W T5s on order, having been unhappy with the colours from the T5s that came with my APS light and hearing from Viktor Lantos that these are the tubes he uses.

I've also finally got a flickr account so can now post pics taken with a better camera.

Pics to come...


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## Crossocheilus (7 Apr 2015)

IMG_2114[/url] by Crossocheilus1, on Flickr[/IMG]

Nope, didn't work…

What link do I want to use to display a pic from flickr?


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## Crossocheilus (7 Apr 2015)




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## Greenfinger2 (7 Apr 2015)

Hi Your scape is looking wonderful Its really coming together Love it


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## Chris Jackson (7 Apr 2015)

Crossocheilus said:


>



Looking good! Great to see things coming together..


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## Chris Jackson (7 Apr 2015)

Oh and what link did you use to get Flikr to work? I tried and found it a right faff..


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## Crossocheilus (7 Apr 2015)

I took this one ages ago, but I'm very proud 


 
Macro attempt, with some accidental reflected product placement 


 
An amano tucking into a blood worm


 
Spotted this berried cherry shrimp today - very excited!



Chris Jackson said:


> Oh and what link did you use to get Flikr to work? I tried and found it a right faff..



I removed some of the url I found, you just want it from "https://farm9.staticflickr" (or something similar) upto (and including) ".jpeg" then on the forum click the image icon next to the smiley face and paste the trimmed url. I am no computer expert but thats what I did after some experimenting and it worked, I hope my explaination isn't completely nonsensical


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## Crossocheilus (7 Apr 2015)

Finally managed to delete the double post.


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## Crossocheilus (7 Apr 2015)

Sorry, double post, but I can't seem to delete the last smiley and the first pic when I edit???


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