# Rainbowfish & Nitrates



## jameson_uk (27 Jun 2017)

Over the last year I have had six of the 10 dwarf neon rainbowfish die.  Most of these have ended up with columnaris which I believe they are susceptible to if they don't have good water.

I do a 50% water change most weeks and tank is reasonably well planted and low tech.  The other residents (black Neon tetras, Sterbai Cory,  Oto, an SAE, Amano shrimp and snails) have all been fine (lost one Cory to a tumor and a couple of weak tetras soon after they were added) and parameters seem OK.  Always zero ammonia and nitrite and reasonably stable pH/GH/KH 7.5/5/12.

Nitrates are the only issue and quite often show 40 when I do a test.  Having checked and my local water authority list average nitrates for my area as 27.5 so they are never going to be particularly low.

That said, my pre filter is always pretty manky.  I rinse that once a week and I am always amazed at the amount of crap that comes out.  I vacuum the substrate every week and try to remove as much dead foliage as possible so not sure whether this is normal or what I could do to reduce the amount.

So given the high level of nitrate in the tap water (and I have no interest in switching to RO) is it worth replacing the rainbows or are these never going to like the setup I have?


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## roadmaster (27 Jun 2017)

What is temperature?(rainbows might like cooler water)
Do you mean GH 12 and KH5 ?
If so, is nearly identical to my water, and I keep Celebs Rainbows and Turquoise Rainbows in tap water  with pH 7.6,GH 12, and KH 4
How often do you clean the filter?(I clean monthly)
How often do you feed?(I feed quite a few fish, once every other day)
P.S. last time I checked Nitrates With uncalibrated API test,I recorded nearly 80 ppm between fish waste,fish food's,and weekly dosing of KNO3.
I put away the test kit's.


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## jameson_uk (27 Jun 2017)

roadmaster said:


> What is temperature?(rainbows might like cooler water)
> Do you mean GH 12 and KH5 ?
> If so, is nearly identical to my water, and I keep Celebs Rainbows and Turquoise Rainbows in tap water  with pH 7.6,GH 12, and KH 4
> How often do you clean the filter?(I clean monthly)
> How often do you feed?(I feed quite a few fish, once every other day)



I believe these want 23-28 and tank is normally at 24.5 but has been 23.5 after I spotted the columnaris. (Although got back up to 24.5/25 when it got really hot last week).

Yes KH/GH were wrong way around.

I clean the pre filter weekly and rinse the internal media about every 12 weeks.

Feeding wise it is once a day with one or two days skipped over a week.  I mix up flakes, crisps, floating pellets and frozen.

I know the first occurrence was probably down to overfeeding but have cut that right down now and nothing left (to the point I have been concerned about what the shrimps and snails are actually getting to eat)


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## roadmaster (28 Jun 2017)

Well,I might try cleaning the internal media in filter every four week's and note any improvement's in overall health of the flora/fauna or worsening condition's.
You say over a year ,that all rainbow's were lost due to suspected columnaris but I might consider maybe just poor stock .
Columnaris IME, does not normally discriminate across species(many affected) ,and issues with this pathogen happen fairly quickly (day's).
Might would not be inclined to place many new fishes for a few month's and see if stepped up 50 % water changes every week,the reduced feeding's your currently performing,and maybe more regular filter maint, might make for an environment more comfortable for another try with the rainbow's that are very pretty.
Maybe different source for them next time. 
Lower temps can slow down the spread of some bacterial pathogen's, but maybe something other than suspected columnaris ? and a few month's will reveal more,or hopefully,,no further issues.


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## jameson_uk (15 Aug 2017)

I am looking at replacing the fish (https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/mixing-dwarf-rainbowfish-sizes.50527/) but one thing that I have seen is that several sites (including seriouslyfish.com which is seems to be fairly reliable) list them down as pH 6.8-7.5.

My pH seems to be hovering around 7.5-8.   If this is pretty stable is this likely to have caused any issues?   Just trying to figure out whether LFS just had poor quality stock (all 10 were from the same batch) or whether I might be better off looking at different replacements

Some photos of the fish as they got bad are
https://www.fishlore.com/aquariumfishforum/threads/dwarf-rainbowfish-with-poorly-head.236440/
https://www.fishlore.com/aquariumfishforum/threads/poorly-rainbowfish.257192/


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## john dory (15 Aug 2017)

Never kept dwarf neons,but my boesemanis developed the goatee beard thing..which then progressed to white flakey lips,aswell.
At first,I feared columnaris,but as it became obvious that other fish were unaffected..i ruled it out.
I feed my fish 2 or 3 times a day,and am not as fastidious as you,with husbandry..so i'd be inclined to rule out nitrates.
Mine cleared up all on their own..in the end,although I did change the substrate to tropical soil,which may have lowered the ph to a preferable number.


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## jameson_uk (21 Aug 2017)

Perhaps I won't add more...
https://goo.gl/photos/QEZ3S56yynfFbwns9

Two of the four seem to be showing the same issues with their mouths (one is looking pretty swollen).  They are constantly moving their mouths but they aren't hanging at the surface like it's an oxygen issue.

Could it be stress related?  I can't see it being flow as they are meant to be from fast flowing rivers, they don't get particularly harassed (although my SAE sometimes gives them the run around).  Light is pretty high but there are plenty of floaters and shade from wood.   All the other inhabitants seem pretty happy and parameters are as normal so I am at a loss as to what to do.  I don't want to add any more unless I know what it is they are objecting to.

Could it simply be poor stock?  All 10 came from the same batch at LFS and I have had them for 14 months.

Any ideas?


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## alto (21 Aug 2017)

Rainbows do have some associated diseases - they do seem more prone to that condition you've shown in your photos - likely it is a secondary infection, with the primary being somethng internal
I don't think of these larger rainbow species as being particularly sensitively natured - you started with a decent shoal & other fish/tank conditions you mention seem fine

Try increasing water changes, begin with 25% daily for 1-2 weeks, then 50% water changes twice weekly for another couple weeks ... this is the sort of process required to rebalance/reset a tank that has gone adrift for whatever reason 
Also do a good filter clean, hoses etc
Vacuum substrate as much as possible, removing mulm (which can be great dwelling zones for undesirable bacteria etc)

I'd not add any rainbow species for at least a couple months after the last symptoms cleared


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## jameson_uk (23 Aug 2017)

alto said:


> Try increasing water changes, begin with 25% daily for 1-2 weeks, then 50% water changes twice weekly for another couple weeks ... this is the sort of process required to rebalance/reset a tank that has gone adrift for whatever reason
> Also do a good filter clean, hoses etc
> Vacuum substrate as much as possible, removing mulm (which can be great dwelling zones for undesirable bacteria etc)



I was actually considering cutting down on vacuuming substrate reading the thread on that as thinking I was removing good food from the plants  

I had already upped cleaning the pre-filter to twice weekly and filter was thoroughly cleaned a week or so ago but the hoses do need a good clean.

Will do daily changes for a while and look for some improvement.

I guess they are snake oil but wondered whether adding something like Evolution Aqua Pure might help to get the tank back in order?


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## alto (23 Aug 2017)

PFK has a decent article on this product
but I doubt it would affect what is going on with your rainbows - I suspect that just water changes etc will sort the tank

As I mentioned in my pm, I'd clear the debris for bacterial reasons, if none of your fish had issues, plant benefit might be a reason to collect debris 
- though I'm personally not convinced of this argument - there should be plenty of debris breaking down relative quickly in the filter - I suspect a heavy mulm layer at base of plants just limits oxygen in those areas ..... of course if you've an inert substrate, there may be argument for increased organic waste chunks, but I'd still maintain that filter transition to more fine & easily dissolved particles, along with water column fertilizing & root tabs would be more effective


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## roadmaster (24 Aug 2017)

Would just make sure that the dechlorinator used for treating new water at water changes was good all around conditioner.
Prime (Seachem) in my view is such a conditioner.
Detoxifies Chlorine,Chloramines,and Ammonia. Not all do this.


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## jameson_uk (24 Aug 2017)

alto said:


> PFK has a decent article on this product
> but I doubt it would affect what is going on with your rainbows - I suspect that just water changes etc will sort the tank


Was thinking in addition to water changes rather than instead.  I did find that article but still not sure whether they would do anything.  The nitrifying side is not an issue as that is more than covered but did wonder about them breaking down carbon based waste that might be hanging around.



> As I mentioned in my pm, I'd clear the debris for bacterial reasons, if none of your fish had issues, plant benefit might be a reason to collect debris
> - though I'm personally not convinced of this argument - there should be plenty of debris breaking down relative quickly in the filter - I suspect a heavy mulm layer at base of plants just limits oxygen in those areas ..... of course if you've an inert substrate, there may be argument for increased organic waste chunks, but I'd still maintain that filter transition to more fine & easily dissolved particles, along with water column fertilizing & root tabs would be more effective


I have been doing daily changes but I am away with work for a couple of days so will do a 50% change when I get back and continue the daily changes next week.

Substrate is inert and I use root tabs but my thought process was more that the less I can add the better.  Making the tank a little more natural.

With the water  a changes I hope I will see an improvement in their condition soon


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## sparkyweasel (26 Aug 2017)

Products like Evolution Aqua Pure always sound like snake oil to me too, but I saw some at MHA after reading this thread (and then googling them) so I thought I should give them a try, as I happened to have a cloudy tank to try them on. I am growing on some baby Columbian Giant Ramshorn snails, so I've been feeding lots of courgettes and peas etc, resulting in the tank (no fish in it) looking like this;




I dropped five balls of Aqua Pure in, not expecting much.
24 hours later:



Quite surprised. 
Clear water as you can see above the wood, the strange effect in front of the wood is a reflection, I couldn't get a better angle at the time.
I don't know if it will help with your problem, but the stuff certainly cleared my cloudy water, which is what they claim it will do.
Of course it's not a rigorous scientific test, but it's an impressive demonstration.
I don't know what possessed me to try it, but now I suppose I've got to try loads of other stuff!


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## TheBubblingScot (26 Aug 2017)

jameson_uk said:


> I guess they are snake oil but wondered whether adding something like Evolution Aqua Pure might help to get the tank back in order?



From Aqua Pure site:





> PURE Aquarium is a bacterial treatment for aquariums of all sizes. Inside every ball there are millions of live bacteria and enzymes.
> Once added to your aquarium, the bacteria and enzymes inside each ball will start to break down the ammonia and nitrite in your aquarium’s water.
> PURE Aquarium also breaks down organic waste, which is often the cause of poor water clarity.
> PURE Aquarium will leave your water crystal clear and healthy.



From personal experience using Aqua Pure balls, if your doing daily water changes then the bacteria/enzymes may not have enough time to work in the water to be effective, as the balls really need time to breakdown and slowly release the bacteria/enzymes.  Sometimes they work within a day, other times they need a few days.
Therefore with daily WC you'd be constantly adding one or two balls with every WC which isn't a cost effective method of treatment imo.

No harm giving them a try if you already have some tho.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## KevB1 (4 Sep 2017)

I have some rainbowfish and I also get the flakey white mouths from time to time though not as serious as in the linked photo. I've lost a few but not directly attributable to that complaint though and none of the treatments I tried seemed to help (everything from Melafix to Esha 2000 and practically everything in between!). I also decided not to keep dwarf neons (M praecox) as there seemed to be a lot of reports on forums about people losing them, I suspect there have been some poor batches imported over the last year or so with weak genes. Lost count of the number of times I've seen tanks of dwarf neons off-sale at retailers with an 'under treatment' sign on them.


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## jameson_uk (4 Sep 2017)

Daily water changes haven't helped and the two are looking worse (think photos are only of one)

One is now hanging right at the surface (mainly at night when oxygen levels drop) and has developed a lump towards the tail which is on both sides.  The other is not as active as normal.

All four are still eating (but the two are not as greedy as normal).

Wondering if I should euthanise them both as the others have gone this way with the next stage being less eating and then death.


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## techfool (4 Sep 2017)

I had these die on me with no obvious signs of disease. At the time, I had 40ppm nitrates out of the tap (thankfully that has dropped). I also have hard, high pH water so I guess the combo was too much for them. Shame, as they were lovely and the males put on a fantastic display.  
Since then, Purigen has reduced my nitrates dramatically but I'm too overstocked to try rainbowfish again.


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## alto (5 Sep 2017)

jameson_uk said:


> Wondering if I should euthanise them both as the others have gone this way



I think you know my opinion


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## roadmaster (5 Sep 2017)

High pH,hard water,a bit on the cool side, would suit the rainbow's.(Is not a factor,contributer)IMHO


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## TheBubblingScot (5 Sep 2017)

How big is your tank and what do you have it stocked with?
Wondering if they have something due to a lowered immune system in turn due to overstocking, but couldn't say as more info is needed.
Might be worth moving them to a quarantine tank to reduce their stress as it may help them recover.

Best guesses : NTD (Neon Tetra Disease) or fungal infection.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jameson_uk (5 Sep 2017)

Tank is 180l and reasonably well planted.  Tank mates are 9 Sterbai Cory, 14 black Neon tetras, 5 otos, 1 SAE, 10 amanos and 6 nerites (all have been in there at least a few months and most around a year)

Filtered by an Eheim Classic 600 (1,000 lph) and a sponge filter that is destined for my betta tank if I ever get the time to set it up.


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## dw1305 (6 Sep 2017)

Hi all,
It might be Mycobacteriosis, I think <"Rainbowfish are particularly prone to it">.

I actually now think that the problems with my Threadfin Rainbows (and possibly the fish pictured in the linked thread?) may have been thryroid goiter, caused by a lack of iodine.

cheers Darrel


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## jameson_uk (7 Sep 2017)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> It might be Mycobacteriosis, I think <"Rainbowfish are particularly prone to it">.
> 
> I actually now think that the problems with my Threadfin Rainbows (and possibly the fish pictured in the linked thread?) may have been thryroid goiter, caused by a lack of iodine.
> ...



Interesting, I hadn't really considered it could be something lacking in my tap water.

Did you attempt to add iodine or just move away from keeping rainbowfish?

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## jameson_uk (7 Sep 2017)

Just got them out to have a look at and gave them a dip in some Methylene Blue.  The one who physically looks OK but spends a lot of time at the surface is looking a bit better.  The other which is more active has worse sores than I thought.

Will give them another bath tomorrow and see how they look at the weekend.


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## dw1305 (8 Sep 2017)

Hi all,





jameson_uk said:


> Did you attempt to add iodine or just move away from keeping rainbowfish?


Both, I only ever kept Threadfins, but I would like to go back to keeping either Threadfin Rainbows (_Iriatherina_ _werneri_) (or _Pseudomugil gertrudae) _at some point. 

Looking at your photo from above I think unfortunately that that is mycobacteriosis.

cheers Darrel


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## EnderUK (8 Sep 2017)

I have two left out of 8 dwarf rainbows 3 years ago. One by one they usually start swimming alone near the surface with rapid weight loss. At this point it's best to net them an kill them quickly. It's a shame because they're beautiful fish.


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## jameson_uk (8 Sep 2017)

dw1305 said:


> Looking at your photo from above I think unfortunately that that is mycobacteriosis.


Is that as bad as some places make out with some recommendations being to nuke the tank and euthanise everything.
I thought this was pretty rampant so I would have expected to see signs in the other inhabitants?

Will try and get a picture of the other one when I head downstairs in a minute as it does look more like flexibacter (columnaris) than the picture in the thread above (it is more on the lips and does look a bit fungus like).   That one doesn't have the protruding lumps this one has


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