# Thinking of going low tech



## dbean (30 Jun 2013)

Hi guys, im a little disheartened with the high tech planted tank it seems everything ive done so far has had adverse affects and im wondering if low tech would be a better option for the simple minded.

Im running a rio 400 with 4x 54w t5s with reflectors, although I only switch one set on. 2x all pond solution 2000lph filters. The substrate is aquasoil capped with jbl manado gravel

Im not 100% on all the plants in there due to buying alot in bulk which came with no descriptions or labels just a list and now alot have been removed. But for those who might know ive put  few pics up, the ones I am sure of are :
hemanthius callichtrodes
Glossostigma elantoides 
indian water fern 
wisteria
a few small java fern

please excuse the spelling

fish stocking is
1x ctenopoma actirostre (african leaf fish)
1x leopard frog pleco
2x algae eaters
2x bolivian rams
2x blue rams
3x kribensis
4x angels
5x polka dot loaches
13x bleeding heart tetras

ive already been dosing dry ferts KH2PO4, KNO3 and TNC trace mix following their guide which I know will have to be reduced alot in a low tech. But what do you think id need to do to have success in a low tech tank.




 


 


 


 


 


Thanks
dean


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## oldbloke (30 Jun 2013)

Shame cos that's starting to look very nice.


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## Mike Edwardes (30 Jun 2013)

Are you adding CO2?


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## dbean (30 Jun 2013)

Ive already got pressurized co2 in there but I cant have any more than 6bps due to the loaches, even at that they are reclusive until lights/co2 out. Only recently started with dry fertz but my fish seem to be dying off by the day, 1 angel 2 days ago and a bleeding heart tetra yesterday. Ive had them for 4 months and had no problems. I only started dosing on tuesday

my dwarf tears arent doing much down to low co2 level thats why im trying the glossostigma.. I just want a nice foreground carpet. Also alot of the leaves on my other plants have brown algae on them you cant really tell from the pics but its lookin a bit naf when closely examined

id carry on with the high tech but the fertz dosing is goin a little over my head, I dont have means of testing everythin in the water so dont kno how much or how often I should be adding


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## Alastair (30 Jun 2013)

If you wanted to go low tech, stick with the 2 54 watt tubes but remove the reflectors and dosing you could make up the ei mix that aquarium plant food suggest in their ei starter pack on their site but just dose at 1/10th the recommended dosing.


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## dbean (30 Jun 2013)

Thanks for the info. Ive read im better having a heavily planted tank for low tech, do you think I should go for a different foreground plant? The dwarf tears arent doing well with low co2 so none im sure its just gonna rot. Im not 100% on the glossostigmas co2 demands either. Ill get a load more java fern i like how it looks when ya get a nice bunch of it.

 Id persevere if the if the co2 wasnt poisoning my loaches and  fertz werent doing my head in so much I know its not rocket science but as far as testing and calculating demands weekly pruning and heavy water changes etc its getting a bit stressfull to be a hobby


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## dbean (30 Jun 2013)

After talking with the better half.. think im gonna give it a few months and see how it goes maybe dosing less than  I have been. I just dont know why all of a sudden in losing fish it just seems too much to be coincidence that my fish start dropping off when I start dosing dry fertz. I think ill use the guide for 250 - 400 litre rather than 400 - 600 guide that came with the ei kit.... feel a bit stupid for doing it now I think of it

thanks


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## stu_ (30 Jun 2013)

Hi.
i can't see too much kit in the tank.What's your flow like ?


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## dbean (30 Jun 2013)

2 external 2000lph filters with spray bars removed, both outlets are pumping diagonally from each corner to the centre of the tank. The co2 is diffused under an outlet and blown around the tank.. its not the best method I know but my plumbing skills arent to great and I cant find a inline diffuser for a 25mm pipe

oh just a note I had BGA before I ditched the spray bars so the flows improved from what it was. I immediatley saw the debris get whipped of my substrate when I took them off


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## Brian Murphy (30 Jun 2013)

I hear ya mate! I got a Rio400 aswell and been trying for the best part of a year to get it right.  The first problem was the lighting, its a bit much for a planted tank and even though I bought reflectors I haven't even opened the packet as 108w is plenty without them.  The second problem was Co2 distribution/flow from using 2 filters.  I have alps 2000 and 1400 (UP Inline Atomizer attached) and I've been playing around with different positions for the spraybars and knowing that I needed another source of Co2 to the 2000, I was stumped.  At the minute I have a 3-way needle valve on and one goes to my Inline and the 2nd goes to a glass diffuser under my 2000's inlet, but I'm having problems with them at switch on time as they dont both come on as they have been set the night before and they always need adjusting but that can't be done until I get home from work, so missing out on crucial hours before lights on ...... and breath ! Feel like a rant lol
Anyway, my next attempt is going to be to follow Amanos set-ups in large tanks like ours by adding lily pipes and using glass diffusers.  I'm going to try, if I can even fit a lily pipe down into the water over the edge of a Juwel rio?? Anyway Im going to put the lily pipe onto the 1400 (Inline atomizer) and have the 2000 spraybar either under it or preferably above it and aided with 2 powerheads to get it down the length of the tank.  I'm going to have a glass diffuser in the tank aswell, maybe even 2 more diffusers as I have a 3-way needle valve and have that option.  One way or another I'll get there and I hope you do too, don't give up yet and your tank is looking sweet.
I would also ask the question about the fish you are keeping.  What is more important to you, the loaches or a Co2/ferts dosed tank?  I love Plecos and have one 8in one in mine but he is a torture and is going when I start my rescape, plus my last 4 kribs are going as they nibble on plants.


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## dbean (30 Jun 2013)

I know what ya sayin murf I think im half way through your first year lol. Its a kick in the teeth cause I got the bigger tank for my loaches and leaf fish, ive had em for years now so wanted to keep them really, if I hadnt id have probably had a go at a reef tank. 

Tbh I think ive had less problems since I turned the lights down but the co2 and fertz is doing my nut in. I think about 5bps is tolerable to my loaches but diffusion is bad so I could probably get the same results from half the amount if I bought a reactor and got it around the tank better I think id just get 2 inline diffusers and wire them up to both filters. But ill see what problems I encounter next I need find a 25mm/16mm T joint or something so I can fit 2 inline diffusers.. I dont know the 1st thing about plumbing tho

I went for the leopard frog pleco, fancy sort, hes not a true plec I think hes a peckolita (sp?) , doesnt dig or destroy plants but he only gets to 4 inches and they need drift  wood for staple diet  also can cost upto £40


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## sciencefiction (2 Jul 2013)

> 2 external 2000lph filters with spray bars removed, both outlets are pumping diagonally from each corner to the centre of the tank.


 
This doesn't sound very efficient in regards to flow parttern. It sounds like the filters are cancelling each other and water flows all over the place only to find a dead spot, possibly in the middle. The drop of f
low when you using the spraybars on the APS filters is because the spraybar and connectors are way narrower than the hose itself. I am not sure if there's any better ones to be fitted on these, but it's worth trying to replace with proper spraybars and then switch back to spraybar setup as that will give you a better flow pattern.


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## dbean (2 Jul 2013)

Wouldnt kno where to find one to fit a 25mm hose. Id probably have to bodge something unsightly together. 

I hadnt best described it.. they arent pointing directly at the same point they are aimed about 1/4 of the way over the front glass from the left and right.. I cant see any visible dead spots, all plants are moving around etc but i cant imagine theres much flow either side of my wood. when I took the bars of my tank was literally vacum cleaned im not sure how id check for dead spots but at the minute it seems an improvement from the bars that came with it..I understand what you mean tho plus my co2 is only on one outlet so its not gonna mix/diffuse well either. 

Im currently looking for a load of 25/16mm tee reducers to fit 2 inline diffusers if you know where I can find some supplies for a spray bar aswell id be greatful for a nudge in the right direction

thanks


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## sciencefiction (2 Jul 2013)

> I hadnt best described it.. they arent pointing directly at the same point they are aimed about 1/4 of the way over the front glass from the left and right..


 
I understand you have the outlets on each side of the tank. That means the flow from one filter is trying to blow against the flow of the other filter one way or another despite the angle. It probably has improved the flow considering that the spraybars of the APS really reduce it to nothing, but you can do better than that arrangement 



> Im currently looking for a load of 25/16mm tee reducers to fit 2 inline diffusers if you know where I can find some supplies for a spray bar aswell id be greatful for a nudge in the right direction


 
If you can find a suitable spray bar for the APS, let me know as I am still using one of my filters like that 
As for reducers, I'd not even attempt it on these filters as you'll again cripple the flow. Maybe some type of third device for that is better as not to affect the filter flow.


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## dbean (2 Jul 2013)

I meant a T joint to bypass the 25mm pipe with 2x25mm in an out of the join and a 16mm running to a diffuser.. and obviously another T  further down so the diffused co2 can go back into the filter outlet tube... was suggested by foxfish so not to completely reduce the diameter/flow. Ill keep you posted.. looks like im gonna be diy'ing this weekend just hope itll look ok (and not leak) with the bodged spray bar plumbings not my thing...


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## Team Steve (3 Jul 2013)

How long has the tank been running for? I just couldn't see ferts being the reason for the deaths but the tank does look really nice right now!

what color is the drop checker? looks more yellowish in the picture.


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## dbean (3 Jul 2013)

Been runnin since end of march. Only added co2 maybe 2 months ago started dosing ferts last tuesday and was using api leaf zone for maybe a month before, I didnt think id need dose too much at first with using aquasoil for a base layer 

the drop checker:




Its new enough to have diatoms eitherway.. unless its a brown algae but im no expert



 




All the rocks should be much lighter with different coloured layers, you can see it more in this next one but its still brown  



 

I had ottos in my old 90litre which polished every diatom off, cant have em in here and my algae eaters dont seem interested


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## tim (3 Jul 2013)

If its diatoms it'll wipe off or scrub off with a brush mate , shyphon it out after cleaning and be patient it will recede as long as your lighting isn't excessive.


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## dbean (3 Jul 2013)

Ive not tried scrubbing the rocks if im honest i was hoping itd die off by now, but I do wipe it off my anubias with my finger before I siphon the tank Ill buy a dish scrubber and try and clean the rocks this saturday. They are pretty jagged rocks so scourers etc just get ripped up. 

My lighting has been a bit high for my co2 when i ran 216w but ive turned a row off, im stuck at the minute getting a balance as my co2 is too high for my loaches as they are reclusive except on water change day.  but barely enough for my plants.  I guess with the light only 108w t5s with no reflectors the co2 demands will be lower, really didnt want get rid of the loaches which is one reason low tech seemed so appealing. I might just have to rehome them and look into another bottom dwelling species. 

I hadnt picked most of the new fish, rams, angels etc. my leaf fish, frog pleco and loaches were from my old aquaone 165l but the missus had chose most of the new stock. 
I suppose eels are a nono in planted tanks. Im not a huge fan on cories although I used to like my julii's the leaf fish will eat them now hes bigger. Cats are nocturnal so not really any point imo..

ill deal with that later I guess. gotta catch the loaches first thatll prob involve tearing my tank down and starting again by the time im finished


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## Brian Murphy (3 Jul 2013)

I bought some lengths of tubing for my alps from fish, fur & feathers with 90o angles and stoppers, just been lazy as of yet about drilling the holes and working out the spacing.  Might do my first drilling this weekend. Will update as to how I get on.


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## dbean (3 Jul 2013)

Ill be doing the same come friday.. roll on pay day 

one more question.. sorta goin back to the low tech thing.. if I ditch my co2, pull out the dwarf tears (that are already struggling), leave the lights on at 108w no reflectors and dose at 1/10th the daily ferts as earlier advised.. besides slower growth, which I dont mind if my fish are happy do you think ill get more algae problems? or plants dying? or looking quite frankly a bit sh!te cause I dont want to go from what ive got to havin a load of spindely weedy plants.

I mean what adverse affects would it have if I just switched it off now, probably know by now im inexperienced and this is the first planted/co2 tank ive had


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## terry82517 (4 Jul 2013)

dbean said:


> I think ill use the guide for 250 - 400 litre rather than 400 - 600 guide that came with the ei kit....



Hey, only going on what iv read but I think reducing ferts will make thing worse not better, see what Clive has to say about dosing less here 
algae back with a vengance | UK Aquatic Plant Society

Cheers


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## Team Steve (4 Jul 2013)

You could always slightly lower the CO2, ferts and lighting altogether and you will still get plant growth but just at a slower rate.

Depends what you want, super fast growth and no loaches or slower growth and loaches.


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## dbean (4 Jul 2013)

Ill wait till I get the inline diffusers and spray bars set up again before making any major adjustments. I think catchin the loaches will involve alot of damage if im honest the were a nightmare to catch in an empty 165l never mind a 5 footer with lots of hiding places. So ill see if I can just slow things down and keep them.. just hope I dont start gettin more algae problems as my co2 been upand down since I started and now ferts being reduced etc, probably get worse before it gets better


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## foxfish (4 Jul 2013)

I would definitely suggest low lighting in your case, as feeding a 5' tank with enough C02 takes some doing!
The last 4' x 2' x 2' tank I owned, used 2 kg of gas every 4-5 weeks with about 2wpg of T5.
I am not a great fan of low tech as I like to see things noticeably growing on a daily bases but, you know what it is like, some folk just have the knack with plant growing & do manage quite nice low tech tanks .. I am just not one of them!


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## dbean (4 Jul 2013)

Do you think 108w needs reducing its only 1wpg. My co2 is gonna have to be turned down to 3-4bps. Do you think theres any point adding so little co2? Ill monitor how things do and try get an average for dosing.. I dont want over do it and have problems with algae

Update:
Ok so the minimum lighting I can run without taking out tubes etc is 108w, ive turned the co2 down to 2bps, and im gonna do a huge pwc tomorrow night and start dosing 1/8 of the recommended ei dosing which was 
1tsp KNO3, 3 dashes KH2PO4,  3 dashes Tnc trace mix

now to be

1xdash KNO3, 3x drops KH2PO4, 3xdrops Tnc trace

dosed on intermittent days 5 days a week as the guide recommends. Dunno how its gonna turn out really but ill let you know if it all turns to crap or goes well... have got a gut feeling of impending doom tho :/ brown algae seems to be loving the ever changing situation in the tank, cant wait get it cleaned up tomorrow.

Please feel free to comment if you think its a bad idea, I went for 1/8 dosing as its easier to work out on the chart with the dosing spoons


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## dbean (5 Jul 2013)

Sorry to bump a thread, my co2 is at 2bps and I can finally confirm all my loaches are alive (not seen all of em out for weeks)  but with 108w t5 over a rio 400 and 1/8th dosing recommended ferts do you think im heading for problems?   Already noticing brown algae taking over the glass at the back of the tank but im not sure if thats taking hold down to instability.. pwc tomorro i think, or am I gonna have to catch the loaches and turn the co2 up to make this work. 

If i cant keep them, what colourful bottom dwellers can I have that tolerate high co2?


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