# Co2 and water agitation



## Roediger (14 Nov 2017)

So i recently increased my co2 to a higher limit.  today  I had off, and noticed the drop checker turning yellow towards the end. I have been watching some Youtube videos about a guy named dennis Wong and surface agitation. 

It pretty much says to push co2 without gasping fish  early or late in the day  surface agitation should be increased. 

now my question is about drop checkers. if i have a lot of surface agitation does my drop checker still turn green or yellow with high co2 injection?  Is it a lot harder for the DC  to turn color?  

i inject 1.30hrs ahead of time and  would have hoped to see lime green if not yellow.. instead mine is a dark green but it's green. i would like to see my drop checker  at a good rate without having to kill my fish

any comments are appreciated as i would like to get this straight.

thank you.


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## Edvet (14 Nov 2017)

Agitation is used to degass CO2 fom the tank, that's why some people use is, in the form of an airpump, at lights out. After lights out the plants will start to release CO2 and consume O2. So when surface agitation is used the CO2 will leave the water, The dropchecker will reflect this , though slow, because dropcheckers are slow.
A pH profile would be more precise to time the CO2 period, the total amount of pH drop is dependend on a lot of things, KH/GH being one of them. In my soft water tank i used a pH drop of 1.6. In harder water 0.5 could be enough.


Roediger said:


> urning yellow towards the end


This means the CO2 isn't optimal when lights go on, but stil increasing.
Have a look at this: https://www.ukaps.org/index.php?page=co2-measurement-using-a-drop-checker


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## ceg4048 (14 Nov 2017)

Roediger said:


> i inject 1.30hrs ahead of time and would have hoped to see lime green if not yellow.. instead mine is a dark green but it's green. i would like to see my drop checker at a good rate without having to kill my fish


Hello,
        This is a clear indication that either your CO2 diffusion method is faulty or that you have poor flow/distribution - or both.

Cheers,


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## Zeus. (14 Nov 2017)

Hi Roediger.

From the small amount of information you have given I have to agree with 'ceg4048' above.

I have watched D Wongs vids on CO2 and I think they are very good. By the sounds of it, I dont think you have fully understood his explanation of using a higher CO2 injection rate along with increased surface agitation to get the same pH drop to achieve a more stable [CO2] during the photoperiod. 

Drop Checkers (DC) are very slow to show the change in the Tanks [CO2], some are worse than others. A pH pen is much better as even a cheap one can monitor the relative change in pH over the photoperiod, plus pre CO2 period and can determine if your CO2 is stable and the relative drop.


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## Roediger (15 Nov 2017)

I have an inline diffuser from GLA. I made my flow better according to the help i got previously from you guys on flow.  My tank is a 29 gal. I re adjusted my spray bar and now the water hits the front of the glass with force! Thanks to ceg4048. The spray bar makes  a fine mist which circulates from front to back.  Could it be i have too much adjitation? I am about to reset on the weekend and monitor. I would have thought increasing co2 would stable co2 when lights are on. I have dimmed the lights also  so tank looks like a low light To help co2 . Plants look alot better. I dose EI  according to tank also

Foreground plants are montecarlo and baby tears

What am i missing?


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## Roediger (15 Nov 2017)

I have another question. If my water flow goes from front to back. Should i position my DC on the back glass. Or it doesnt really matter?


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## ceg4048 (15 Nov 2017)

Roediger said:


> I have another question. If my water flow goes from front to back. Should i position my DC on the back glass. Or it doesnt really matter?





Roediger said:


> The spray bar makes a fine mist which circulates from front to back. Could it be i have too much adjitation? I am about to reset on the weekend and monitor. I would have thought increasing co2 would stable co2 when lights are on. I have dimmed the lights also so tank looks like a low light To help co2 . Plants look alot better. I dose EI according to tank also


Hi,
   It would help if you were to record pH readings regularly from gas on to lights off, every hour or so. That is really the best way to determine how effective your CO2 strategy is and whether it is efficient. As Zeus mentions, the DC is too slow to give you instantaneous information.

It doesn't really matter where in the tank the DC is located. The best place for a DC is anywhere in the tank that makes it easiest to see the color.

The DC is a guide Neo. It can show you the path.

If you are overzealous with surface agitation, you will off-gas the CO2 in the same way that when you shake a bottle of fizzy drink, the CO2 comes quickly out of solution and sprays out of the bottle. It is better to moderate the agitation. The less agitation you use, the less CO2 you need to inject to achieve your target concentration and the less danger there is to the fish. I do not suggest using an air pump or anything like that to augment agitation. Simply point the spraybars slightly up above the horizontal so that you achieve ripples on the water's surface:



 

As I mentioned, please take a half dozen or dozen pH readings at regular intervals when you reset your configuration. Adjust your injection rate so that you achieve a drop of 1 pH unit from the gas on time to the lights on time. That should take from 1 to 2 hours. If you are not able to accomplish that then look for pinched or kinked gas line or leaks in the gas line connections. Use soapy water and brush/spray on the connections to check for gas leaks.

Cheers,


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## Roediger (15 Nov 2017)

do you guys think  2 T5 bulbs over a 12 height  tank is a lot of light?


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## ceg4048 (15 Nov 2017)

Yes, it's a lot of light, but if you have enough CO2/nutrients, good flow and proper distribution to support that amount of light then it's OK and the plants grow very quickly.

Here is a copy of Hoppy's chart.



 

Cheers,


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## Roediger (16 Nov 2017)

I have been dosing 7 ml of EI every otherday. should i dbl it so no nutrients are missing? I also have the light on for 5 hrs atm since its a strong light


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## Roediger (16 Nov 2017)

got it to almost match yours lol. tomorrow at work i will line up the holes better as i see they are not totally straight. did notice more flow making plants sway more =)


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## ceg4048 (16 Nov 2017)

Roediger said:


> I have been dosing 7 ml of EI every otherday. should i dbl it so no nutrients are missing? I also have the light on for 5 hrs atm since its a strong light


Well I'm not really sure what 7ml means in absolute terms because I don't how much of what goes into your mix, or what mix you are using. I also don't know what size the tank is.
If the instruction on the package instructs you to combine the powders in the standard EI amounts for your size tank then I don't think you'll be missing nutrients. You should be OK as long as it is a standard. There ought not to be a need to use double the amounts. 

The more swaying of the plants is usually a good sign.

In any case, CO2 is the more critical case. The pictures look good to me. As long as you don't break the surface with splashing then you'll be fine.

Cheers,


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## Roediger (17 Nov 2017)

Ok saturday is my reset. I will start monitoring co2 thanks alot guys


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## Roediger (17 Nov 2017)

Sorry ML is milliliter. I dose kno3, kh2po4, and magnesium sulphate. And sometimes i dose k2so4.


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## Zeus. (17 Nov 2017)

Roediger said:


> Sorry ML is milliliter. I dose kno3, kh2po4, and magnesium sulphate. And sometimes i dose k2so4.


I'm sure Clive knows what ml is. What he needs to know is size of tank and amounts of ferts your adding ideally with the ppm for the amount of 7ml of LCO to advise if it's enough or too much

Sent from Mountolympus via neural interface


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## Roediger (17 Nov 2017)

Ah sorry. My tank is a 29 gal, and i mix in 500 ml bottle 4 tsp of pottasium nitrate. 6 tsp of mg sulphate. And 1 tsp of phosphate. On odd days i have a cbm and that mix is 1 tsp in 500 ml and i dose 27 ml of macro and 15  micro


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## ceg4048 (17 Nov 2017)

Hi mate,
            OK, well I guess I must be out of touch with the latest in acronyms, and for that I apologize, but I don't know what "cbm" is.

I'm a little confused because in post #10 you mentioned that you add 7ml of macro every other day. I assume that means 3x per week?

Given the mix recipe of 1 teaspoon KH2PO4 and 4 teaspoons KNO3 in 500ml of water, I calculate that this adds about 0.5ppm of PO4, which is OK, but only about 2ppm NO3 per 7ml dose.

But then I'm lost in the sentence regarding "cbm". I'm guessing that might be referring to the trace mix as that would make sense if you're dosing it on odd days. However the last sentence states that you dose 27ml macro? Then that can't be 3X per week (which would be 21ml). 4x per week would be 28ml so I reckon that must be 7ml 4X per week and that 27 is a typo.

In any case, the KNO3 dosing looks a bit low to me as it will only give you less than 7ppm per week so you would need at least double that and more likely 3X that. Of course, it's also possible that your water contains some NO3 as tap water often does, so you might be OK, but I normally start at the target dosing and reduce from there if I can get away with it.

Just to add a little to Zeus's post, we're not trying to bash you or anything like that but EI is just someones's idea. It is not a consistent brand name so the recipes are not the same from person to person or from vendor to vendor.

If we were talking about 7ml of Coca-Cola or 7mg of Bic Mac then that's a different story because Coca-Cola is exactly the same whether in London or in Buenas Aires. The recipe is the same. If I order a Happy Meal in Guangzhou, China it will taste the same as if I ordered it in Moscow. The recipe and ingredients are the same worldwide. But when we talk about EI or other Fertilizer recipes there are no guarantees that what I think is in 7ml is actually what your 7ml contains. So it's always necessary to explain what is in your mix and what size the tank is because those are the numbers used to calculate ppm.

Cheers,


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## Roediger (17 Nov 2017)

I think i am getting this water movement wrong lol the flow looks good on pic but my drop checker didnt even turn green LOL


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## Planted Bows (17 Nov 2017)

Means you need to inject more co2. More water movement means more degas of co2 which in turn enables you to get a more balance co2 reading.

I'm currently dialing mine in......takes alot of time lol! Got a new filter coming in the post as want more water movement. Only got a trickle Hob filter atm. 

Sent from my G8141 using Tapatalk


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## Roediger (18 Nov 2017)

hello, i am truly sorry for the confusion.  was typing at  work so let me start over.  macro mix contains 4 tsp of kno3, 1 tsp kh2po4 , 6 magnesium sulphate,
I dose 27ml , 3x a week. my micro mix is 1 tsp of plantex cbm chelated trace.  its a 29 gal  30L 12w 18h. Furthermore, I dont think you guys are bashing me, you are just trying to make sense of my bad english typos  hehe. you are all helping me alot, and I really do appreciate all the help. even if it's tough love I will accept it.  I REALLY! want my tank to be great. I have invested money but more time than anything. no lie, I have been trying to carpet my tank more than a year.

*light.*  my light settings are low atm reason i am saying this is because my anubias has no algae for a couple of weeks after light was dimmed.

only place i seem to be getting algae are on the foreground plants, monte carlo and HC and s.repens



*
want to know if low light is good for the plants i have.

plants*
micranthemum
anubias
Ludwigia repens
java moss
Cryptocoryne Wendtii 
Staurogyne repens
Bacopa
Rotala Indica / rotundifolia
hygrophila corymbosa
Alternanthera reineckii

*new plants:*
Hemianthus callitrichoides
Pogostemon helferi
rotala wallichii


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## ceg4048 (18 Nov 2017)

Hi Roediger,
                   OK, thanks for the clarification. 
Yes, you have to be careful typing on the forum while at work. The boss will not appreciate that at all mate.
@Zeus I hope you're not typing at work! The world is in enough trouble as it is! 

OK, based on those numbers it looks a lot more reasonable, as each dose provides nearly 7ppm NO3 and about 2ppm PO4. I don't really worry too much about the trace numbers. I just assume they are fine.

As far as your light being low, well, I mean, this is the goal. There are no plants that require high light. There are only plants that either do better in low light and plants that require high CO2.
You've been reading too many ideas written by Klingons. The only thing that high light does is it accelerates growth rates - but it also accelerates algae.
People use high light to grow the plants quickly, especially carpet plants, which are generally slow growing.
There is a lot of self imposed pressure by top aquascapers to get their tanks ready for competition, so they pummel their tanks with high light to mature the plants quickly.
Somehow, this practice has morphed into some kind of "requirement" for some plants to survive.
Another consequence of high light is that it damages the plant tissues so the plants produce certain pigment to combat the excessive energy.
These pigments often appear to us as being desirable, such as red or orange and so forth.
Again, this desire morphs into a "requirement" and when unsuspecting hobbyists or newbies follow this advice without paying attention to gas exchange and proper nutrition it often drives the tank over the cliff with all sorts of problems.

Looking at the latest photos you provided I don't see anything particularly wrong with health. I think you could trim the tall plants and replant the stems to get them more bushy. The more you trim the stems the bushier they get.
There are some tall stems that you have on the left in the front and that's not really good as it disrupts flow/distribution. I would move them to the back so that they hide that awful looking corrugated tube and other equipment.

You might also want to slide the spraybar across so that it is more central. if it is too far to the left or to the right the plants on that side will tend to do well while the plants to the opposite side may not do as well.

Also, be careful with the vertical positioning of the spraybar. Ensure that it is not too low, as that will tend to cause some of the flow ti squirt upwards when it hits the front glass - and we want as much of it as possible the flow downwards towards the carpet. having the spraybar just under the waters surface also provides the agitation you need. I don't know why agitation has become another Holy Grail. You just need enough to break up any surface film and to provide some gas exchange at night.



Roediger said:


> only place i seem to be getting algae are on the foreground plants, monte carlo and HC and s.repens


Well, I cannot see it on those photos because they are wide angle shots. We need to see close ups.
We need to identify exactly what the species is because the type of algae provides reliable clues as to what the cause it.
Generally, carpet plants suffer filamentous algae such as hair, They are also prone to diatomic algae as well and these all point to poor CO2, which could be a result of poor injection or poor flow/distribution or both.

Lets see what your pH profile tells us and we can go from there.

Cheers,


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## Zeus. (18 Nov 2017)

Roediger said:


> 4 tsp of kno3, 1 tsp kh2po4 , 6 magnesium sulphate,
> I dose 27ml , 3x a week. my micro mix is 1 tsp of plantex cbm



Which I think is about the standard mix which most EI starter kits use. Which when I ran it though a ferts calculator gives quite a Ferts mix at the lower end of the EI range. It may be worth considering increasing the EI dose then the extra NO3 PO4 will have their anti aglea properties working and you will know their will be no fert deficiency, you can always dial it back later. 

No expert myself, but I am in the process of increasing my fert regime to maximise plant grow ensuring no fert deficiency as I can always dail back later if no improvement in plant health.

Heres some maths on ppms I have worked though






the figures on lower left are based on Clives article *The Estimative Index (EI) Dosing with Dry Salts
*
which for making solutions gave the pmm with the calculator I used. Also Cilve did his Micros in two doses in article, I used three for same weekly target.





I use grams as use scales as then I dont lose count as I make up 2-3 liters at a time

Feel free to check the maths OFC. I used Rotall Butterflys *Nutrient Dosing Calculator v1.5.91*
I dont get to tied up in the being accurate in the weighing of the ferts to get at dead accurate just like to know what range I'm after, then seeing how/if the plants responded which takes time. After all DIY ferts are the smallest of the expenses with a high tech tank.


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## Roediger (18 Nov 2017)

Thanks guys!

Tomorrow I will start to minitor injections since  I am off. Also i can send close ups of my ground plants. And move the tall plants back to hide my ugly filter tube lol. Thanks for all your advice. I will experiment and  increase the mix on ferts see if that will help max uptake


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## Zeus. (18 Nov 2017)

Zeus. said:


> Which I think is about the standard mix which most EI starter kits use. Which when I ran it though a ferts calculator gives quite a Ferts mix at the lower end of the EI range. It may be worth considering increasing the EI dose then the extra NO3 PO4 will have their anti aglea properties working and you will know their will be no fert deficiency, you can always dial it back later.
> 
> No expert myself, but I am in the process of increasing my fert regime to maximise plant grow ensuring no fert deficiency as I can always dail back later if no improvement in plant health.
> 
> ...



I forgot to mention  I did the maths for a 500l tank and dosing 100ml of macros and micros x3 a week


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## Roediger (19 Nov 2017)

hello guys. just finished my WC on my 29 gal and have several pics for you to browse. while trimming saw a few leaves on my rotala and noticed some falling off and also this yellow one. two ground plants are montecarlo and HC,

Thank you.


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## ceg4048 (19 Nov 2017)

Yes, well that first image shows two tufts of BBA  in the rear and maybe GSA on the far left. These are of course, CO2 related. As mention a few posts ago the amount of light that you are using at the moment drives a CO2 demand that you are not satisfying, so there is more work to do and you should disable one of your T5 buls while you sort this out. I suggest that you try to supplement your CO2 with liquid carbon for now. BBA indicates serious trouble and is a very difficult problem to solve.

Also try to remove some of your filter media if it is filled to the brim. That will help you to get more flow.

Cheers,


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## Roediger (19 Nov 2017)

Hello, 

Thanks for reading my post.  The pictures are from my 29 gal which have a planted plus 24/7 light. I did lower the light after one of your posts. The light low enough that i am not getting algae on my anubias or s.repens anymore =) . I have been reading other posts about using excel. So i went ahead and purchased 500ml bottle.

My t5 lighting is in this tank which i am also balanding out


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## Roediger (20 Nov 2017)

what about the yellow leaves in one of the pics? is that co2 or ferts?

I also got some ph readings! 

before co2 on ,PH- 7.4 at 3pm 

co2 on for 1hr PH 6.6 4pm

co2 2hr PH 6.0.

If i went by the chart for kh & PH I should have high co2 in teh reds.

KH was 6 drops before solution turned yellow at 5pm


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## ceg4048 (20 Nov 2017)

Hi Roediger,
                    Hmm, the plot thickens as now I'm not sure which tank we are talking about. In any case, I'm not seeing any yellowing in any of the photos shown in your post #25. I see one photo with a finger in it and that seems as if it's pale because of it's translucency. Yellowing is always a nutrient issue, but that one leaf on the finger, as far as what I can tell from the photo, has some kind of CO2 related algae surrounding it's edges and appears to be translucent, which is a CO2 issue.

The bottom line is that if you are dosing EI levels of nutrients and if you suffer nutrient related issues then it tells you immediately that you have a flow/distribution problem as you really should never need any more than the standard EI dosing level. The flow/distribution problem will also show up as a CO2 related fault.

I don't think having light 24 hours per day 7 days a week is a good idea at all, but I'm not sure if I've misinterpreted "planted plus 24/7". maybe that's a brand name?

Couriouser and couriouser...

Cheers,


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## Roediger (20 Nov 2017)

hehe sorry for the confusion. we are talking about the tank with co2 problems and nutrient. the lights is called 24/7 but i dont use that feature. lights are on 7hrs a day. thanks for  looking at the yellow plant. it does look clear, inside the water looked yellow.  I  have an inline diffuser, does it matter which way i face  the tubing?, it's attached to the tube  that directs water back to the tank. I cut the tube as close as possible to the filter so it can get a few more seconds to mix before heading out to tank.

Also found a leak in one pipe thread. Idk why they dont use tape or dope on fittings..

Also for distribution i was able to find more  suction cups  and place it under the top layer of water


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## ceg4048 (20 Nov 2017)

Hi mate,
            It shouldn't matter which way the tubing faces. It's not clear to me which side of the filter the diffuser is on. Normally, I like to have the diffuser output go into the filter inlet, but this can cause problems as the diffuser get more easily clogged with dirt when it's on the input side. This is not a big deal if the diffuser is easy to clean. The advantage is that it has more time to mix going into the filter and out to the tank. This also has the advantage of reducing the amount of visible bubbles. The disadvantage is that the gas can sometimes buildup inside the filter and cause rattling.

Yeah, it is the usual practice to use pipe tape, not sure why that would have missed that...



Roediger said:


> before co2 on ,PH- 7.4 at 3pm
> 
> co2 on for 1hr PH 6.6 4pm
> 
> co2 2hr PH 6.0



OK, this looks good.



Roediger said:


> If i went by the chart for kh & PH I should have high co2 in teh reds.


Forget about what the chart says. It is not really applicable.



Roediger said:


> KH was 6 drops before solution turned yellow at 5pm


Don't really understand what this means. I assume that your measured KH is not zero. If so then the pH numbers are more or less accurate enough.

Cheers,


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## Zeus. (20 Nov 2017)

I had my CO2 pre filter with my Fluval FX6 and it could only handle a limited CO2 injection rate, then it would burp and split large CO2 bubbles out. So I went for a reactor post filter and tank is bubble free except for pearling. Details and vids of reactors here mine is an over complicated setup in some ways. But was put on to the APS EF external filters as reactors from other very helpful members, which can be much simplified, if you do go down the APS EF reactor route you dont need the BIO Balls there are other cheaper options which work just as well.


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## ceg4048 (20 Nov 2017)

The reefers replace the stock impellers with Needle Wheel Impellers for use in their skimmers. These do a much better job of chopping up the bubbles and avoiding the burping/misting. There are lots of different designs, but of course the problem is finding one that's compatible with your particular filter model...

Cheers,


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## Roediger (20 Nov 2017)

Zeus. said:


> I had my CO2 pre filter with my Fluval FX6 and it could only handle a limited CO2 injection rate, then it would burp and split large CO2 bubbles out. So I went for a reactor post filter and tank is bubble free except for pearling. Details and vids of reactors here mine is an over complicated setup in some ways. But was put on to the APS EF external filters as reactors from other very helpful members, which can be much simplified, if you do go down the APS EF reactor route you dont need the BIO Balls there are other cheaper options which work just as well.


Yes! This is whats happening to me after a certain psi it starts spitting out big bubbles and they go up asap


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## Roediger (20 Nov 2017)

ceg4048 said:


> Hi mate,
> It shouldn't matter which way the tubing faces. It's not clear to me which side of the filter the diffuser is on. Normally, I like to have the diffuser output go into the filter inlet, but this can cause problems as the diffuser get more easily clogged with dirt when it's on the input side. This is not a big deal if the diffuser is easy to clean. The advantage is that it has more time to mix going into the filter and out to the tank. This also has the advantage of reducing the amount of visible bubbles. The disadvantage is that the gas can sometimes buildup inside the filter and cause rattling.
> 
> Yeah, it is the usual practice to use pipe tape, not sure why that would have missed that...
> ...



Ok glad to see o got the co2 part right. My doffuser is on the inline tubing side.

Now i have to figure out best position. Some reason i cant post vids of my flow


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## ceg4048 (20 Nov 2017)

You can only post video links to Youtube, facebook and I believe Vimeo and a couple of other sites.

Cheers,


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## Roediger (20 Nov 2017)

ah ok let me do a youtube vid and send a link


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## Roediger (20 Nov 2017)

heres my video of my water flow let me. tell me what you think


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## Edvet (20 Nov 2017)

Your tank makes wierd noises


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## Roediger (20 Nov 2017)

ceg4048 said:


> Hi mate,
> It shouldn't matter which way the tubing faces. It's not clear to me which side of the filter the diffuser is on. Normally, I like to have the diffuser output go into the filter inlet, but this can cause problems as the diffuser get more easily clogged with dirt when it's on the input side. This is not a big deal if the diffuser is easy to clean. The advantage is that it has more time to mix going into the filter and out to the tank. This also has the advantage of reducing the amount of visible bubbles. The disadvantage is that the gas can sometimes buildup inside the filter and cause rattling.
> 
> Yeah, it is the usual practice to use pipe tape, not sure why that would have missed that...
> ...


Is there a prefered method when to use excel? Beginning  middle or end of the day ?


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## Roediger (20 Nov 2017)

Edvet said:


> Your tank makes wierd noises



Haha its music to make the plants dance like mario 3 stage 4


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## Roediger (20 Nov 2017)

which co2 reactor is best for my filter had to get a 16/22  inline diffuser to fit my hose

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00MGX7JXA/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## ceg4048 (20 Nov 2017)

Roediger said:


> Is there a prefered method when to use excel? Beginning middle or end of the day ?


Definitely at the beginning of the photoperiod.

That angle of view in the video isn't really the best.

Try dropping the water level 5 or 6 inches and take the picture/video from the side and front glass so we can see how the jets move across the tank.

Cheers,


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## Roediger (20 Nov 2017)

Here is a longer with 4 inch water taken out


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## Roediger (21 Nov 2017)

do you guys use fans by any chance? I have one but dont use atm


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## Edvet (21 Nov 2017)

It would be better if the spraybar covered the whole length of the tank


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## Roediger (21 Nov 2017)

Ah


Edvet said:


> It would be better if the spraybar covered the whole length of the tank



Aw.. when i did a bar the length of the tank i didnt have a strong water flow. Wasnt even enough to hit the glass. Water went half way. Maybe if I made the holes very small?


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## Edvet (21 Nov 2017)

That indicate you could do with a stronger filter or added pumps. Try taking out filtermedia, this could improve filterflow.
The way it is now you will have "dead spots" where problems will arise.


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## Roediger (21 Nov 2017)

I took out media already took out the bio balls half of my ceramics and repalced with   kitchen scrubbers on 1 tray. Only reason i left half rack was for bacteria, but my next filtee clean will take out the rest of ceramoc disk


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## Roediger (21 Nov 2017)

So you saying i should get a better filter or add a pump? Can i place  a pump after the filter . In the inline section to pump water put faster?
 What do you guys recommend


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## ian_m (21 Nov 2017)

Roediger said:


> Can i place a pump after the filter


You never put filter/pumps inline with each other or else they will fight each other especially if one is bigger than the other.

You either

Need to add another filter & spray bar to get the spray bar going the full width of the tank, along with sufficient flow for the water to reach the glass on the other side.
Add a much bigger filter and full width spray bar.
Like this.


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## Roediger (21 Nov 2017)

ian_m said:


> You never put filter/pumps inline with each other or else they will fight each other especially if one is bigger than the other.
> 
> You either
> 
> ...




Man! What filter u think is good for a 29 gal 30l 18 h 12 w?

Black friday is around the corner folks 1 big filter or two!


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## Roediger (21 Nov 2017)

If this all works out getting a big one then i can use the one in my tank now on my 10 gal for better flow.

At the moment i have this which i dont like the flow. My grass and anything on the bottom has waste . The flow isnt strong.

https://m.ebay.com/itm/New-Aquarium...h-Salt-Water/232267098126?hash=item361432a80e


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## ceg4048 (21 Nov 2017)

Hi Roediger,
                    Generally, for CO2 injected tanks we suggest the 10X rule of thumb so that if you have a 29G tank the target filter should be rated on the box as 290 GPH or higher. This isn't a make-or-break rule, just a guideline.
The best thing to do though, is to first try to add a Koralia, or wavemaker, or whatever they are called these days, and place it directly under the spraybar pointing parallel to the spraybar jets. This is cheaper than investing in another filter, but if you had the intention of getting another filter anyway then follow the 10X rule and carry on.

Cheers,


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## Roediger (21 Nov 2017)

Man you guys are awesome here!

Will this do the trick i got one of them so far

Edit: i also have a1200 gph power head o.o


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## ceg4048 (21 Nov 2017)

Yes, that's fine. Mount underneath the the spraybar at first and monitor for a few days to see how it works. Again, do the pH profile when you have the chance and compare with the original numbers. 
You can also try mounting it to the left of the spraybar, but as you have so many tubes and equipment there it might no work as well. In any case, experiment and give the tank time to observe whether the change was better or worse.

Cheers,


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## Roediger (21 Nov 2017)

Thanks everyone! If i have to move some things around i will. Again thanks for the tips. I will see you guys in a few days lol. Give ya a break from my noobness lol


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## Zeus. (22 Nov 2017)

Clive

with referance to the timing of dosing LCO2 you posted.



ceg4048 said:


> Definitely at the beginning of the photoperiod.



I understand that when using LCO2 it breaks down in faster when the lights are on, but to gain the extra CO2 it gives for the plants its best to dose just before lights on which makes sense as it will still break down when lights are off therefore to make the most of the extra CO2 it provides for plant growth.

However if you are dosing LCO2 mainly for its anti algae properties would be be better to dose after the photo period then the LCO2 would remain at a higher concentration for longer because the lights are off. Or does its anti algae properties work better when the lights are on, as the aglea are photosynthesizing and therefore they may be uptaking the LCO2 up which then reduces their activity/grow or zaps them better when the lights are on.

TIA

Zeus


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## ceg4048 (22 Nov 2017)

Zeus. said:


> However if you are dosing LCO2 mainly for its anti algae properties would be be better to dose after the photo period then the LCO2 would remain at a higher concentration for longer because the lights are off. Or does its anti algae properties work better when the lights are on, as the aglea are photosynthesizing and therefore they may be uptaking the LCO2 up which then reduces their activity/grow or zaps them better when the lights are on.


Hi Karl,
            Well, a fair enough point. The approach depends on how one view's the relationship between plants and algae.
In my opinion the best way to interpret the relationship in our tanks, is that algae appear when plants suffer a nutritional deficiency.
Algae, in our context are behaving as predators. Predators attack the weak. Plants suffering nutritional deficiency are weak and their tissues die thereby signaling their weakness and their status as prey. As a disclaimer, note that the relationship may differ in other  habitats.

So the best way to combat deficiency is to provide nutrition and to improve the health of the plants.

If a CO2 related algal bloom appears in the tank this means that there is a CO2 deficiency which weakens the plant during the lights on time when CO2 is needed.

Use of the liquid carbon during the photoperiod feeds the plant CO2 when CO2 is needed and so enables the plant to resist the algal attack at the same time that the algecidal properties are executed against the attackers. There is no point killing algae during the night and then having the plants continue to suffer poor CO2 during the day, because that just starts the cycle all over again as they are weakened by poor CO2 in daytime. Liquid carbon does not eradicate algal spores from the tank. It only attacks the bloom. The spoors then bloom again as long as the plant remain weak.

It's always a more effective strategy therefore to strengthen the plants and to allow them to signal their healthy status to the algae, who are monitoring their health continuously.

A long winded way of saying that I never think of liquid carbon solely as an algaecide. I view it as an energy boost for plants first and then a complementary  algecide secondarily. A carrot for plants and a stick for algae.

Cheers,


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## Zeus. (22 Nov 2017)

ceg4048 said:


> Hi Karl,
> Well, a fair enough point. The approach depends on how one view's the relationship between plants and algae.
> In my opinion the best way to interpret the relationship in our tanks, is that algae appear when plants suffer a nutritional deficiency.
> Algae, in our context are behaving as predators. Predators attack the weak. Plants suffering nutritional deficiency are weak and their tissues dies thereby signaling their weakness and their status as prey. As a disclaimer, note that the relationship may differ in other  habitats.
> ...



So work on healthier plants not fighting algae with the LCO2 
Plus the algae bloom is more than likely going to happen during the photoperiod when the algae is being feed by the light. Makes more sense now - cheers


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## ceg4048 (22 Nov 2017)

Yes, our struggles really ought not to be about killing algae. I think this is where many folks fall off the wagon. When there is a problem in the tank, always consider ways of improving the health of plants first. Algae are not aliens from space who invade the tank. They are residents of the tank just as much (and probably more so) as the plants. Their appearance always is an indicator of poor plant health.

Cheers,


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## Roediger (27 Nov 2017)

Hello!  I am back from giving you guys a break! lol

So with the lights very dim.. all my plants are growing and even my monte carlo and baby tears are showing growth its a bit slow but its growing healthy and without algae at the moment.

anyways, reason I am bothering you again is to ask about a certain filter for my 10 gal with good flow. 

*Eheim Classic Canister Filter with Media - 2211. * Is this filter good for a 10 gal planted tank?


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## ceg4048 (27 Nov 2017)

Hi Roediger,
                   Happy to hear the good results so far. Hope it continues. Yes, dim lights reduce the growth rates but so what? You don't have to deal with algae. That's a great tradeoff.

As we mentioned before, we try to follow the 10X rule. I had a look at Big Al's and it lists that filter as having a flow rate of 60 GPH, which would be good for a 6 gallon tank.

Again, if the lighting is kept very low and if your distribution scheme is good and if your CO2 method is good then that filter would be fine.
If it were me though, I would rather get a filter that comes closer to the rule. Anything with 80-100 GPH would be better if you can get it at a good price.

It's not clear to me if you have an aux pump in that tank as you stated "...my 10 gal with good flow..."
Does that mean the 10 G already has good flow? If it already has good flow then the Eheim will be fine and maybe even OTT.

the 10X rule applies to the total pumping power rating in the tank, so if you had a wavemeker giving good flow rating in the 10 G already then as I said, no issues at all.

Cheers,


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## Roediger (27 Nov 2017)

oh no! it doesn't have good flow. it's a small canister filter, and thanks to you guys I realized it's not good lol. description says 106 gph, but it ain't. My aquaclear 20 HOB is better than the one i got. I am looking for one that has good flow! strong enough to perform how you guys describe with spray bars.

this is what i have atm, and it leaves a lot of debris on the ground and on my grass. 
https://www.amazon.com/TechnToy-HW-...d=1511751259&sr=1-11&keywords=canister+filter


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## Zeus. (27 Nov 2017)

Roediger said:


> this is what i have atm, and it leaves a lot of debris on the ground and on my grass.
> https://www.amazon.com/TechnToy-HW-...d=1511751259&sr=1-11&keywords=canister filter



which is same as All Pond Solutions 400L/h EF-150


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## Roediger (27 Nov 2017)

Zeus. said:


> which is same as All Pond Solutions 400L/h EF-150


says 400 liters an hr on this site. but if it really is the same as mine. it has almost no flow rate the spray bar sprays very poorly and i even took out 2 of the sponges. leaving only floss and 1 filter pad


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## ceg4048 (27 Nov 2017)

Hi Roediger,
                   OK, well a filter with a 400LPH rating ought to be sufficient, so if the flow is poor, then before you commit to another filter, you may want to troubleshoot this filter. Have you disassembled the impeller housing to make sure there is no debris or damage to the impeller?

Avoid using floss, which are flow killers and just use foam. Get rid of the bioballs in the bottom chamber if there are any there.
Make sure that you do not have any kinked hosing.
Also is the filter very far below the water line? Try setting the filter on a table or stool to see if the flow rate improves.
There may be something wrong with the pump electrics as well. Does the pump housing get very hot when running?

Have a look at these before rejecting the filter outright.

Cheers,


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## Roediger (30 Nov 2017)

Hello guys

I have a couple of pictures for you guys since I dimmed the lights. My ludwigia  leaves seem smaller, but in time can be bigger i dont know. Good note that i am sure of my montecarlo is throwing shoots  everywhere even in low light


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## Roediger (2 Dec 2017)

Hello Clive. 

Look what i found today 

Question: is it safe to use epsom salt as your Magnesium sulphate?


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## Roediger (2 Dec 2017)

Why does this happen if i have good flow. I mess with the tank everyday cleaning and looking for problems.


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## ian_m (2 Dec 2017)

Roediger said:


> Hello Clive.
> 
> Look what i found today
> 
> Question: is it safe to use epsom salt as your Magnesium sulphate?


Yes provided it it just epsom salts free of perfume and anti-caking agent, which some foot soak products have.


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## Roediger (2 Dec 2017)

It says 100% mg


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## ceg4048 (2 Dec 2017)

Roediger said:


> It says 100% mg


Yeah, that's fine. If it's cheap then get it.


Roediger said:


> Why does this happen if i have good flow. I mess with the tank everyday cleaning and looking for problems.


I can't really tell what that is mate. That could be just debris caught by the hairgrass. Use an old toothbrush or maybe try to siphon it off and see if you can clean it. It looks white so I don't know if it is algae or just dirt.


Roediger said:


> Look what i found today


As long as you are getting new growth then don't worry too much. Just make sure you are getting the correct pH drop. 
You have to constantly check these things. CO2 is not a pill that you take. It's an iterative process so always check to see if you have lost flow or if your injection rate is still good based on the pH drop..

Cheers,


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## Roediger (2 Dec 2017)

Ah ok! Yes lots and lots of new growth coming off that crypt lol cant get it to stop. It sprouts  by the half a dozen .

Yeah the hairgrass is debris. I just thought to myself, i dont have animals only thing in the tank is amazonia ada soil.  Only thing i can think of is... my moss tree under all the new growth mayb old particles? Want my grass to look nice and clear!  Thanks for the tip on using a tooth brush. Once the roots grow in will it be hard for this plant to uproot? I mean just by winking at, it it comes up


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## ceg4048 (3 Dec 2017)

Roediger said:


> Once the roots grow in will it be hard for this plant to uproot? I mean just by winking at, it it comes up


Yeah, hairgrass will grow lots of roots because that's how it propagates, by sending roots all over the place and the sprouting up from wherever the roots travel to.
That will take some time though, so just hold the bunch down with some other tool or with you free hand while you scrape the dirt off.

Cheers,


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## Enano_1 (8 Dec 2017)

Hello people, 

If it necessary to reach the all functionality of the ceramic stone cylinder of Jbl proflora direct submerging in water for 24 hours before put in the inline atomizer until the arrangement of the aquarium??

Thanks for sharing your knowledges 

Aarón from Toledo


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## Zeus. (8 Dec 2017)

Enano_1 said:


> Hello people,
> 
> If it necessary to reach the all functionality of the ceramic stone cylinder of Jbl proflora direct submerging in water for 24 hours before put in the inline atomizer until the arrangement of the aquarium??
> 
> ...


Mine was ok with low BPS rates but couldn't cope with the CO2 BPS neededof get pH drop. Big bubbles once a certain BPD reached. Solved it with CO2 reactors. No bubbles in tank except pearling or when  Hinderfeld CO2 aglea inhibited is on.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


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## Enano_1 (8 Dec 2017)

I think that I dont express that want I say very well, but I catch your tip 

it is necessary to leave moisten ceramics twenty-four hours ??


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## Zeus. (8 Dec 2017)

Enano_1 said:


> I think that I dont express that want I say very well, but I catch your tip
> 
> it is necessary to leave moisten ceramics twenty-four hours ??


It helps get smaller bubbles short term

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


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## Enano_1 (8 Dec 2017)

That is what I need to read 

Thanks again


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