# General advice, almost ready to call it a day!



## DaveP (25 May 2022)

Hi, I’ve been running my first proper aquascape for 18 months and I’m just finding it too much work to stay on top of the maintenance without constantly getting overwhelmed with algae and poor performance of plants.

I spared no expense with the tank and equipment, from AG, started as an Iwagumi then switched to current after the algae farm I created got too much!!

I spend about 90 mins per week on it. See photos for current results. I enjoy it generally, but feel fed up about the algae and am considering whether I’m just expecting too much for the time I’ve got available (I even struggle to get an hour sometimes).

Has anyone else had a similar experience?

EA Aquascaper 900
CO2 art dual stage regulator 
Oase 850 filter
Switched from inline co2 to a reactor a few months ago
Twinstar LED 900S lighting 8hrs per day at 80%

Any comments appreciated.


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## seedoubleyou (25 May 2022)

Everyone goes through these stages mate and it looks as though you’re battling some BBA (black beard algae).
Firstly don’t give in, you’ve invested all this money and this time. You can get round this one way or another and will find great reward when you do.

I’ve never dealt with this algae myself so I’m not best placed to advise on how to battle it.

What can I recommend at this stage?
Keep up big water changes, search the forum on how to deal with BBA, I’m sure a higher knowledge will be along shortly and will help get you back on the right path.


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## seedoubleyou (25 May 2022)

In the interim, perhaps also drop your light schedule down to 6hrs.
I might also advise that if time is a real issue for you, perhaps a lower maintenance setup would be more beneficial to you long term.


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## Andy Pierce (25 May 2022)

I find light intensity matters more than duration for algae growth. You could cut intensity to 40% (from your current 80%) make no other changes and see how you get on with things after 3 or 4 weeks.


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## Simon Cole (25 May 2022)

I would remove the rocks and wood, increase the plant biomass by at least 300% and plant it out, do something to cheer up they grey wall, install some colour adjustable back-drop lighting, cover the stand with photographs and annotations, ornaments on the light bar, mist fogger on a timer with jungle sound effects. That kind of thing. I wonder what your plant fertilisers are like.


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## Tom72 (25 May 2022)

I have had similar experiences to you, and still have a set up which has algae issues, but manageable . There will be an imbalance and finding out what that imbalance is can feel like finding a needle in a haystack.  The lighting doesn’t sound too excessive but maybe you ramped it up to soon allowing the algae to get a foot hold, before your plants could get established. Does your tank receive direct sunlight or positioned close to a window, any extra light will give the algae a boost. Definitely review your hours and alleviate any other light sources.
Have you been fertilising the plants? And have you dosed enough? Fertiliser will give your plants the best opportunity for growth combined with CO2. But this won’t help much if the plants leaves are damaged as algae proliferates on weakened leaves. Removing as many affected leaves is crucial, and suspect you have done this already. 
Do you have a clean up crew? Having an army of shrimp and snails to tackle algae are essential.
Test your ph, Kh, Gh and TDS, if any of these are to high or low that could limit plant growth.
What temperature is your water, often this can be the main problem, 20 to 22 Celsius is best and plants favour these cooler temperatures.
I would reduce the lighting to 4 hours, do 10% water changes daily, deep clean the tank removing hardscape if you can and nuke it with hydrogen peroxide or liquid CO2 scrubbing it really well. Remove all affected plants and salvage the healthiest. Invest in some fast growing plants to get on top of excess nutrients caused by weak plants rotting. Floating plants are also great for soaking up excessive nutrients and help reduce the light. Once you are on top of it you can then start increasing the lighting gradually, reduce the water changes and have a system that’s easy to maintain. As a final note check plants for deficiencies as an extra boost of iron, potassium or phosphorus etc will also keep things healthy.
Good luck


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## ElleDee (25 May 2022)

What are you spending your 90 minutes doing? Hopefully you've done whatever you can to speed up water changes because those are here to stay, but there's a lot you can do to make the tank easier to manage. Right now you are going for a high energy system with lots of light and supplemental CO2 and while this affords you the greatest flexibility with plants, when it's out of balance it can really get away from you. If you slow things down, you can get your algae under control and have less to do every week. 

If I were trying to reduce the workload, I would lower the lights; remove any plants that really need the high light or are completely covered in algae and trim out as much algae as possible from the remaining plants; replace some or all of the hardscape with easy, fast growing stem plants; and double check my fertilizer regime and CO2 set up (maybe check the CO2 first, actually); and make sure I'm doing big, weekly water changes. I have found that spot treating with hydrogen peroxide can be very helpful in getting algae under control provided you are also tackling the root causes of the imbalance. 

If you are really, really ready to chuck the whole tank out the window, consider starting over with a totally low energy system - low lights, no supplemental CO2, and stick with easier plants. You still have to get the tank balanced, but once you do it'll be rock solid and pretty undemanding. In my oldest display tank, I do a weekly water change and occasionally I do a little trimming and of course I feed the creatures. It doesn't look as fancy as a high energy tank, so maybe that doesn't appeal to you at all, but my fish and shrimp are happy and I don't really have much algae to speak of.  It actually didn't give me enough to do, so now I have more tanks. 



Tom72 said:


> What temperature is your water, often this can be the main problem, 20 to 22 Celsius is best and plants favour these cooler temperatures.


This is true, but I think I spy a German ram in there, so lowering the temperature might not be an option. Gotta put the livestock first and all that.


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## xZaiox (25 May 2022)

If you have algae then there is an imbalance. That is a strong light, and if you're providing strong levels of light, then your CO2 has to be perfect to match it. High levels of light increase the demands of the plants for other nutrients and CO2, and it's easy for them to become carbon limited. Double, triple and quadruple check your CO2 firstly, are your levels truly high enough? Are you getting at least a 1.0 pH drop from degassed water to lights-on water? And also importantly, is your flow/circulation good? Your filter is rated fine for the job, but are all the plants gently swaying in the flow?

Black beard algae is typically due to insufficient CO2, or possibly excessive dissolved organics. I used to have quite a lot of it in my very first scape, and it was caused by bad circulation, it would appear in certain areas but not around high flow areas. Also, you didn't mention anything about ferts, but are you using them? EI dosing?

In the mean time, lower your lighting intensity until you have things back under control. This will prevent the tank from moving too quickly, and it can later be turned back up when the algae is gone.


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## DaveP (25 May 2022)

Wow! Thanks for all the advice everyone, And the encouragement! I will digest it and work out a plan. 
A few answers to questions:
Ferts- I am dosing 5ml of APT Complete daily.
Temperature: 23 deg
Livestock: approx:
1 x Golden Ram male (was a pair but female got sucked into the filter when the skimmer dropped one night  )
10 x Cardinals
5 x 5-banded barb
4 x Bentosi tetra
3 x Otocinclus
15 x Amano shrimp
8 x horned nerite snails

CO2 - I don’t use a PH checker, just indicator going green, I think this may be a bit hit and miss, though I do try to keep it steady, I don’t mess about with it much.

The BBA came on really strong about a month ago, before that it was hardly a problem but I always had lots of green dust algae on everything.


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## DaveP (25 May 2022)

ElleDee said:


> What are you spending your 90 minutes doing? Hopefully you've done whatever you can to speed up water changes because those are here to stay


This is my routine: I am doing a 75% water change weekly. I have a reasonably good system for it I think. I also have to disconnect the glass pipes and soak them in bleach solution to get rid of algae. I trim plants, try to get rid of as much algae as possible. Clean glass etc, fan the plants and soil to get the waste organics out into the water while it’s siphoning off. Clean the pre-filter, refill and use Prime to de-chlorinate, then spend ages trying to get the pump going because the reactor is inline and it’s a pain to get the filter primed again! Maybe I need to switch back to inline CO2 but I don’t like the bubbles.


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## DaveP (25 May 2022)

ElleDee said:


> If you are really, really ready to chuck the whole tank out the window, consider starting over with a totally low energy system - low lights, no supplemental CO2, and stick with easier plants. You still have to get the tank balanced, but once you do it'll be rock solid and pretty undemanding.


Sounds very tempting! This will be my preferred option if I don’t crack it this time I think, maybe with a smaller setup.


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## jaypeecee (25 May 2022)

xZaiox said:


> Black beard algae is typically due to insufficient CO2, or possibly excessive dissolved organics.


Hi @DaveP 

I have done a good deal of research and experiments to try to understand what makes BBA such an unwelcome visitor (Audouinella in particular). If you use the forum search facility, it should dig up a few recent (and not so recent posts/threads). Referring to the two things listed above, my findings are that dissolved organics is the biggie. CO2 often gets the blame, particularly 'fluctuating CO2 levels'. But, I'm not convinced that CO2 itself is the culprit. I'm of the view that pH, not CO2 per se, may be an important factor. May I ask, what is the pH in your tank at various times of day (and night, if possible)? Dissolved organics are normally produced as a result of food and detritus breakdown. Although water changes and basic maintenance play an important part in eliminating dissolved organics, I suspect this may be insufficient waste removal.

JPC


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## DaveP (25 May 2022)

Tom72 said:


> Do you have a clean up crew? Having an army of shrimp and snails to tackle algae are essential.


15 big Amanos, 8 Nerite snails and a few Otos. Does that sound like enough?


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## DaveP (25 May 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> May I ask, what is the pH in your tank at various times of day (and night, if possible)?


I’m afraid I don’t know - I don’t test much, but I’ll do so and let you know. Thanks.


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## DaveP (25 May 2022)

xZaiox said:


> Double, triple and quadruple check your CO2 firstly, are your levels truly high enough? Are you getting at least a 1.0 pH drop from degassed water to lights-on water? And also importantly, is your flow/circulation good?


I don’t check PH, I just use a drop checker, which goes green. Sounds like I need to get this sorted. I have a liquid test kit which I can use for PH, but is it better to use an electronic checker? If so what do you recommend?


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## jaypeecee (25 May 2022)

DaveP said:


> I’m afraid I don’t know - I don’t test much, but I’ll do so and let you know. Thanks.


Hi again, @DaveP 

You don't need a pH meter at the moment. Something like this should do the job nicely:






						JBL pH 6.0 - 7.6 Test Kit
					

Buy JBL pH 6.0 - 7.6 Test Kit from CMC Aquatics a high quality test kit measuring pH in aquarium water in 0.2 increments.




					www.cmcaquatics.co.uk
				




JPC


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## xZaiox (25 May 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> my findings are that dissolved organics is the biggie.


Hmm... interesting. I wonder if increased flow may sometimes help because it helps sweep away the organics more?


DaveP said:


> fan the plants and soil to get the waste organics out into the water while it’s siphoning off


@DaveP am I right in thinking that you're draining the tanks water from one location, and relying on the detritus being suspended in the water column in order to remove it? I don't remove waste in my tank in this manner, so I can't really comment on whether or not that's okay, but it does make me wonder if that might just be kicking up a bunch of organics into the water column and it settling on plants. You aren't doing 100% water changes, so not all of that organic material is being removed. Typically, just siphoning above the substrate to pull up anything light will do the job.

One of the biggest causes of algae in general is ammonia, which obviously comes from decaying organic matter in our tanks.


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## DaveP (25 May 2022)

Tom72 said:


> The lighting doesn’t sound too excessive but maybe you ramped it up to soon allowing the algae to get a foot hold, before your plants could get established. Does your tank receive direct sunlight or positioned close to a window, any extra light will give the algae a boost. Definitely review your hours and alleviate any other light sources.


There is no direct sunlight and I followed AG’s recommendations when originally starting the tank. But maybe I got it wrong from early on. I will review the light period/intensity. But I’ve had it right down to 4-6 hours in the past and found it a bit boring to have a dark tank for so long.


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## jaypeecee (25 May 2022)

Hi @DaveP 

What happened in your tank about a month ago?

JPC


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## DaveP (25 May 2022)

xZaiox said:


> am I right in thinking that you're draining the tanks water from one location, and relying on the detritus being suspended in the water column in order to remove it? I don't remove waste in my tank in this manner, so I can't really comment on whether or not that's okay, but it does make me wonder if that might just be kicking up a bunch of organics into the water column and it settling on plants.


Yes, that’s typically what I do, sometimes I use a different siphon to get into the soil and plants directly, but Inonly do that once e t purple of months as it takes ages. Maybe this is another source of my problems…


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## DaveP (25 May 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @DaveP
> 
> What happened in your tank about a month ago?
> 
> JPC


I did a big clean, got rid of most of the BBA, spot treated with liquid CO2 where I couldn’t get it off. Big filter clean too. I don’t think anything else changed but the BBA went wild a few days later!


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## DaveP (25 May 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi again, @DaveP
> 
> You don't need a pH meter at the moment. Something like this should do the job nicely:
> 
> ...


Great, I have a test kit like that already, thanks!


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## xZaiox (25 May 2022)

DaveP said:


> I don’t check PH, I just use a drop checker, which goes green. Sounds like I need to get this sorted. I have a liquid test kit which I can use for PH, but is it better to use an electronic checker? If so what do you recommend?


The unfortunate thing is that neither a 1.0 pH drop or drop checker can accurately say that you have perfect CO2 for your tank, but the two can help guide us. The general consensus is to use the plants and fish as guides, i.e if the fish are happy and showing no signs of distress, but the plants aren't happy (i.e algae), then it could be worth increasing the bubble rate and observing the tank. It's important to only do this when you can be around to observe the tank though, and make sure that the fish tolerate the increase.

@jaypeecee sounds pretty sure that dissolved organics are the cause of BBA, so it might be best to start there first. Maybe try reviewing your tank cleaning methods and optimising flow in your tank. You want all of your plants gently swaying in the flow, this shows that they're all getting delivery of CO2 and nutrients, and keeps organics from depositing on them. If this part doesn't help, then I would move on to increase CO2. I would absolutely lower your lighting intensity while figuring out the algae issue though.


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## DaveP (25 May 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> Although water changes and basic maintenance play an important part in eliminating dissolved organics, I suspect this may be insufficient waste removal


That makes sense, especially in light of other comment about how I’m siphoning off the detritus. It feels like it’s a massive job to keep on top of that though, it’s a big surface area to clean the plants and soil like that. Maybe I’m just doing it wrong? Or with the wrong tools?


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## DaveP (25 May 2022)

xZaiox said:


> The unfortunate thing is that neither a 1.0 pH drop or drop checker can accurately say that you have perfect CO2 for your tank, but the two can help guide us. The general consensus is to use the plants and fish as guides, i.e if the fish are happy and showing no signs of distress, but the plants aren't happy (i.e algae), then it could be worth increasing the bubble rate and observing the tank. It's important to only do this when you can be around to observe the tank though, and make sure that the fish tolerate the increase.
> 
> @jaypeecee sounds pretty sure that dissolved organics are the cause of BBA, so it might be best to start there first. Maybe try reviewing your tank cleaning methods and optimising flow in your tank. You want all of your plants gently swaying in the flow, this shows that they're all getting delivery of CO2 and nutrients, and keeps organics from depositing on them. If this part doesn't help, then I would move on to increase CO2. I would absolutely lower your lighting intensity while figuring out the algae issue though.


Makes sense, thanks! I wonder about flow, I’ll check that.


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## jaypeecee (25 May 2022)

DaveP said:


> I did a big clean, got rid of most of the BBA, spot treated with liquid CO2 where I couldn’t get it off. Big filter clean too. I don’t think anything else changed but the BBA went wild a few days later!


Hi @DaveP 

That would have stirred things up with the result that particulate organics (stuff that you can see) would have then been broken down by heterotrophic bacteria. The nett outcome is dissolved organics (which we can't see). I can't comment on the use of liquid carbon as I never use it.

JPC


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## DaveP (25 May 2022)

Simon Cole said:


> I would remove the rocks and wood, increase the plant biomass by at least 300% and plant it out, do something to cheer up they grey wall, install some colour adjustable back-drop lighting, cover the stand with photographs and annotations, ornaments on the light bar, mist fogger on a timer with jungle sound effects. That kind of thing. I wonder what your plant fertilisers are like.


I’ll get onto all that right away! Ferts are APT Complete, 5ml daily…


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## DaveP (25 May 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @DaveP
> 
> That would have stirred things up with the result that particulate organics (stuff that you can see) would have then been broken down by heterotrophic bacteria. The nett outcome is dissolved organics (which we can't see). I can't comment on the use of liquid carbon as I never use it.
> 
> JPC


Is there a way to deal with dissolved organics other than lots more cleaning and big water changes? What would you recommend exactly?


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## jaypeecee (25 May 2022)

xZaiox said:


> @jaypeecee sounds pretty sure that dissolved organics are the cause of BBA...


Hi @xZaiox 

It's rarely the case that there is just one contributing factor. I avoid saying that X or Y or Z is the cause of whatever. The more I've read about aquatics science, the more I appreciate the sheer complexity of what happens in our tanks. It is truly mind-boggling!

JPC


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## xZaiox (25 May 2022)

DaveP said:


> Is there a way to deal with dissolved organics other than lots more cleaning and big water changes? What would you recommend exactly?


I'm wondering if you might be disturbing the substrate too much or something.


DaveP said:


> sometimes I use a different siphon to get into the soil


Are you disturbing the deeper layers? Typically for cleaning all I do is lightly swish the siphon over the top of the visible substrate during water change day (50% each Sunday), and I'll also swish it around the rocks. In the deeper layers of the substrate, there is all sorts of rich colonies of bacteria that are breaking down all the waste that gets down to those layers.

I don't know if I'm doing it the right way, I haven't had any algae for a while now though


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## Tom72 (26 May 2022)

DaveP said:


> 15 big Amanos, 8 Nerite snails and a few Otos. Does that sound like enough?


I think the EA 900 holds about 250 ltrs, advice for clean up crews I have read are 1 amano for every 5 to 8 ltrs,, so at least 30 to 50 shrimp, and 1 nerite snail per every 10ltrs so that would give you 25ltrs. You could also try some Siamese algae eaters they do eat BBA apparently, although my pair seem to avoid it.


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## jaypeecee (26 May 2022)

DaveP said:


> Is there a way to deal with dissolved organics other than lots more cleaning and big water changes? What would you recommend exactly?


Hi @DaveP 

I think it starts with gaining some understanding about organics. I'll try to get back online tomorrow. For example, aquatic plants leach organics into the aquarium water. They do this when the plants are healthy and even more so when they are not healthy. There is a thread on UKAPS that I started a few years ago. Its title is something like "Do healthy plants release organics?"

Now, I must go offline. It's late.

JPC


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## ElleDee (26 May 2022)

DaveP said:


> This is my routine: I am doing a 75% water change weekly. I have a reasonably good system for it I think. I also have to disconnect the glass pipes and soak them in bleach solution to get rid of algae. I trim plants, try to get rid of as much algae as possible. Clean glass etc, fan the plants and soil to get the waste organics out into the water while it’s siphoning off. Clean the pre-filter, refill and use Prime to de-chlorinate, then spend ages trying to get the pump going because the reactor is inline and it’s a pain to get the filter primed again! Maybe I need to switch back to inline CO2 but I don’t like the bubbles.


Oh, good that you are doing a big change. You could probably skip soaking the pipes every week as long as the flow isn't being impeded. It might look ugly without getting cleaned, but if you are getting burnt out you should look for shortcuts. I don't run CO2 myself, so I don't know about your issue priming the pump, but surely there's got to be a better solution there. My canister doesn't even have a priming mechanism (Eheim classic series), but I have shut off valves on both sides of the filter that I can close when I work on the tank or remove the filter and I generally don't have to suck on any tubes if I'm thoughtful about it. 


DaveP said:


> Sounds very tempting! This will be my preferred option if I don’t crack it this time I think, maybe with a smaller setup.


Low energy tanks are underrated! They require patience because everything grows so much slower, but that's true for algae too. The real downside is the plant options are more limited, but the ones that grow well are not picky once they settle in. 

As it stands, I definitely think you are on the right track making sure your CO2 is dialed in and working on reducing organics. Good luck!


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## Hanuman (26 May 2022)

@DaveP
Lots of good advise up here but I'll sum up what I believe your issue is and IMO what your priority should be.

1. You are using high lights but are not so confident about your CO2 levels. Red flag. That should be your primary concern before anything else. Not sure at what moment of the day those pictures were taken but if that is the color of your drop checker then you need to bump CO2 up, or decrease light if you want slower growth. It will all depends on plant requirements and what you are after. High tech tanks are intrinsically high maintenance because of how rapid plants grow. So if it isn't due to algae problems then you still need to trim plants regularly. Whether you stay with a drop checker or go for a 1 PH drop, that is your choice, but CO2 in relation to light needs to be fixed ASAP.

2. Your tank is underplanted. Lightly planted tanks are more difficult to care for hence why it is advised when you are new to this to shove as many plants as possible.

3. Organics, partially caused by reason #1. Your tank has entered a positive feedback loop that is self sustaining. Plant health is impacted by your light/co2 imbalance. Organics are released permanently and more so when you trim plants every week since plants aren't doing well in the first place. The wood also contributes to such organic release. Your fish as well. All that put together creates a great soup for algae. So reduce organics and don't allow organics/dust to go to in the water column when you are draining the tank.


DaveP said:


> fan the plants and soil to get the waste organics out into the water while it’s siphoning off.


The above seems to imply organics are being thrown over all around the tank. That is a big NO NO. You have to do it with minutia and only fan what is allowed to be sucked immediatly. It doesn't mean you have to do the whole substrate every week. Just do small sections each time.

If you fix point #1 #3 above you will start seeing some clear improvements. Point #2 is advisable for better stability and I recommend it.
When you are fixing the above I would suggest, doing two WC back to back specially when doing big "cleanings" because despite what we think when you are cleaning and removing organics you are in fact potentially adding some more inadvertently by disturbing the substrate, the filter, the plants etc. So a second WC can drastically reduce organics as it is originally intended.

Good luck and don't give up. Don't get fooled by all those high tech tanks, "free of algae", thinking it's a piece of cake for the owner. They spend FAR MORE time maintaining their tanks than they care to admit. I myself spend easily 2 hours every Saturday and don't consider myself to have algae problems. I could possibly spend less time if I didn't have stem plants as those require trimming all the time.


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## Wookii (26 May 2022)

You've had some great advice already @DaveP, and well summarised by @Hanuman.

The one thing that hasn't been mentioned is your ferts:



DaveP said:


> I’ll get onto all that right away! Ferts are APT Complete, 5ml daily…



This is pretty lean dosing. If I have my numbers correct, your dose results in (weekly):

NO3: 5.04ppm
PO4: 1.96ppm
K: 10.64ppm
Mg: 1.12ppm
Fe (as proxy for micros): 0.14ppm

Whilst you should be able to get away with the levels of K and PO4, your plants could quite possibly be deficient in NO3, Mg and micros. I would at least double your dose initially, and when you next need to buy a bottle, go with the APT EI so it lasts longer (DIY salts would be even better) as it will allow you to revert back to 5ml daily. I would also get some Magnesium Sulphate (MgSO4 - aka Epsom salts - available from Amazon/eBay etc) and add a little more, unless you know for sure there is Magnesium in your tap water, regardless of which APT product you use.


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## seedoubleyou (26 May 2022)

PH test kits are inaccurate and a waste of money.


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## Hanuman (26 May 2022)

@Wookii I purposefully omitted ferts entirely because I don't think it is the cause of algae problems or the solution.


Wookii said:


> This is pretty lean dosing. If I have my numbers correct, your dose results in (weekly):
> 
> NO3: 5.04ppm
> PO4: 1.96ppm
> ...


As per manufacturer:




The dosing should be 5ml/4 times per week or 3ml/every day. So technically he is dosing more than the recommended dosage. Basically he is dosing the following:



So as you can see far more than enough, but not as much as me yet 😂


Wookii said:


> Whilst you should be able to get away with the levels of K and PO4, your plants could quite possibly be deficient in NO3, Mg and micros. I would at least double your dose initially, and when you next need to buy a bottle, go with the APT EI so it lasts longer (DIY salts would be even better) as it will allow you to revert back to 5ml daily. I would also get some Magnesium Sulphate (MgSO4 - aka Epsom salts - available from Amazon/eBay etc) and add a little more, unless you know for sure there is Magnesium in your tap water, regardless of which APT product you use.


Honestly I doubt it very much, regardless of the ferts:
1. Considering the low plant mass, NO3 in there is probably enough. You need to consider all fish, shrimps and snails that are also providing some, plus accumulation over time.
2. He has what seems to be a complete substrate. That is obviously an assumption from my side but it looks very much like it, in which is case it is providing nutrients as well. Granted it's 18 months old but I would bet there is still plenty of nutrients as the tank is not heavily planted.


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## Wookii (26 May 2022)

Hanuman said:


> The dosing should be 5ml/4 times per week or 3ml/every day. So technically he is dosing more than the recommended dosage.



No, that's for a 100 litre tank, he's rocking 250 litres so divide all your numbers by 2.5


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## Hanuman (26 May 2022)

Wookii said:


> No, that's for a 100 litre tank, he's rocking 250 litres so divide all your numbers by 2.5


Correct. Omitted that tiny bit of information 😅. Getting tired of looking at that calculator.


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## Wookii (26 May 2022)

Hanuman said:


> Getting tired of looking at that calculator.



Don't lie, you love it! 😂


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## DaveP (26 May 2022)

Hanuman said:


> 1. You are using high lights but are not so confident about your CO2 levels. Red flag. That should be your primary concern before anything else. Not sure at what moment of the day those pictures were taken but if that is the color of your drop checker then you need to bump CO2 up, or decrease light if you want slower growth. It will all depends on plant requirements and what you are after. High tech tanks are intrinsically high maintenance because of how rapid plants grow. So if it isn't due to algae problems then you still need to trim plants regularly. Whether you stay with a drop checker or go for a 1 PH drop, that is your choice, but CO2 in relation to light needs to be fixed ASAP.


The drop checker was at fully gassed state in those photos, I was wondering whether it should be a lighter green.... I think I need to check using PH.
But, how do I know what the balance should be between amount of CO2 and light intensity? I think you're saying that if I drop the light intensity then the current CO2 level might be OK, but how do I tell?



Hanuman said:


> 2. Your tank is underplanted. Lightly planted tanks are more difficult to care for hence why it is advised when you are new to this to shove as many plants as possible.


It feels like there are a lot of plants in there right now based on the work, but I guess there is quite a bit of the soil I could plant into still. Last time I looked at re-planting to a high level, the plants were going to cost > £200, so I paused that idea for a while.



Hanuman said:


> 3. Organics, partially caused by reason #1. Your tank has entered a positive feedback loop that is self sustaining. Plant health is impacted by your light/co2 imbalance. Organics are released permanently and more so when you trim plants every week since plants aren't doing well in the first place. The wood also contributes to such organic release. Your fish as well. All that put together creates a great soup for algae. So reduce organics and don't allow organics/dust to go to in the water column when you are draining the tank.


Thanks, this is a great explanation, along with what others have said about dissolved organics.  I didn't understand this and I'm doing it all wrong. When I do "vacuum" the substrate (just aquasoil) I push the siphon tube (a gravel cleaner) into the soil about 1-2cm and watch it bring up all the waste (I think that's what it is) until it run clear, then I move on to the next patch. It takes ages and it definitely disturbs the soil.  When I'm doing a normal clean, the water column ends up very brown with the algae off the glass and the stuff I've fanned up from the ground plants and soil. I'm then taking 75% of that away with the water change, but I guess I'm leaving loads of organics on the plants. I never thought about that.
I'll follow the advice about beng more careful in this area.  I wonder whether I've got too much hardscape in there, which makes it much more difficult to get to some parts?


Hanuman said:


> Good luck and don't give up. Don't get fooled by all those high tech tanks, "free of algae", thinking it's a piece of cake for the owner. They spend FAR MORE time maintaining their tanks than they care to admit. I myself spend easily 2 hours every Saturday and don't consider myself to have algae problems. I could possibly spend less time if I didn't have stem plants as those require trimming all the time.


I appreciate that!  This is a dilemma for me - I really like the effect, but I have underestimated the work required to get it to a high standard and keep it there - and I am very time poor!
Thanks for all the advice, I need to get to work on it now!


----------



## DaveP (26 May 2022)

Wookii said:


> You've had some great advice already @DaveP, and well summarised by @Hanuman.
> 
> The one thing that hasn't been mentioned is your ferts:
> 
> ...


OK, I thought slightly leaner dosing would help with the algae and make it a little slow growing to help maintenance - I think 5ml per day is what they recommend on the bottle. It sounds like I need to beef this up and look into dosing a bit more.
This is all such a juggling act!
Thanks


----------



## DaveP (26 May 2022)

seedoubleyou said:


> PH test kits are inaccurate and a waste of money.


What would you recommend instead?


----------



## Hanuman (26 May 2022)

@Wookii, here you go. I used 186L since that it what seems to be the volume of an EA Aquascaper 900 (90x50x45). Realistically if you subtract the hardscape and substrate it's probably around the 150L give or take, but let's just use gross volume.




Although it is slightly below the recommended dosage of the manufacturer, still I don't think ferts here is the primary issue, but it wouldn't hurt increasing levels up to the recommended values of course. You need to keep in mind accumulation. So realistically those umbers are probably far higher in the tank unless he does 100% WC each time which I very much doubt.


----------



## DaveP (26 May 2022)

Tom72 said:


> I think the EA 900 holds about 250 ltrs, advice for clean up crews I have read are 1 amano for every 5 to 8 ltrs,, so at least 30 to 50 shrimp, and 1 nerite snail per every 10ltrs so that would give you 25ltrs. You could also try some Siamese algae eaters they do eat BBA apparently, although my pair seem to avoid it.


Oh wow! I have underestimated... Also expensive! I need to try and find a decent bulk supplier maybe.

I had 3 SAE's and I loved them but they all ended up jumping out of the tank over a period of a year  The last one got scooped up and replaced 3 times before he finally did it at night...


----------



## DaveP (26 May 2022)

Hanuman said:


> @Wookii, here you go. I used 186L since that it what seems to be the volume of an EA Aquascaper 900 (90x50x45). Realistically if you subtract the hardscape and substrate it's probably around the 150L give or take, but let's just use gross volume.
> View attachment 189127
> Although it is slightly below the recommended dosage of the manufacturer, still I don't think ferts here is the primary issue, but it wouldn't hurt increasing levels up to the recommended values of course. You need to keep in mind accumulation. So realistically those umbers are probably far higher in the tank unless he does 100% WC each time which I very much doubt.


On the bottle is says 5ml daily for 180L - so that's what I'm using - are you saying you think I'm still under-dosing on that basis?


----------



## Wookii (26 May 2022)

Hanuman said:


> @Wookii, here you go. I used 186L since that it what seems to be the volume of an EA Aquascaper 900 (90x50x45).



That's my miscalculation then, I thought they were 60cm front to back.



Hanuman said:


> Although it is slightly below the recommended dosage of the manufacturer, still I don't think ferts here is the primary issue, but it wouldn't hurt increasing levels up to the recommended values of course. You need to keep in mind accumulation. So realistically those umbers are probably far higher in the tank unless he does 100% WC each time which I very much doubt.



They could well be higher but we don't know for sure. Micros and Mg in particular are very low - add some hard Surrey water and he could easily have micro deficiencies. Good to at least exclude ferts as a potential contributing factor.



DaveP said:


> This is all such a juggling act!



It certainly is - which is why it's good to exclude some variables from the equation when you are still learning to manage a high tech tank. If we can be confident that a) we don't have too much light, b) we have more than enough CO2, c) we have more than enough ferts - it starts to become easier to narrow down the factors that might be leading to problems.


----------



## Wookii (26 May 2022)

DaveP said:


> On the bottle is says 5ml daily for 180L - so that's what I'm using - are you saying you think I'm still under-dosing on that basis?



I think the take away is we just don't know. Because some of the ingredients are on the low side we can't be sure - so if we increase them, we can exclude that as a possible factor contributing towards the current issues. Its a process of elimination to solve your algae issues. You have a set of levers/controls that contribute towards what happens in your tank in general. If we can remove some of those levers from the equation, and push the others in the right direction, the whole thing becomes easier to deal with. So far the levers you have to play with (in no particular order) are:


Light
CO2 level
CO2 distribution
Ferts
DO levels (through surface agitation)
Plant mass
Water changes
Maintenance
Maintain a good clean-up crew
(Other folks will no doubt point out others, but they are the main ones that spring immediately to mind.)

As you can see - if we:


Turn down the light
Ensure we hit a decent drop checker colour from lights on to lights off
Ensure that drop checker maintains that colour in all areas of the tank
Slightly overdose the ferts
Ensure good surface movement from the filter outlet (adjusting 2. and 3. as required to compensate for additional off-gasing)
Plant heavily from the get go
Change at least 50% of our water each week (more if we are suffering from algae - but ensuring we maintain 4.)
Keep the tank and filter clean (but don't vacuum the substrate as you've just found out)
Add some cherries and Ramshorns
We have then eliminated many of the levers, and gone a good way in the right direction on the others.


----------



## Aleman (26 May 2022)

Hanuman said:


> @DaveP
> Lots of good advise up here but I'll sum up what I believe your issue is and IMO what your priority should be.
> 
> 1. You are using high lights but are not so confident about your CO2 levels. Red flag.
> ...


Great advice here. In fact I'm going to implement #1 and #3 in my tank immediately ... Well not so much #1 as I use a CO2 controller, and am reasonably confident in my CO2 levels ... I have reduced light levels by 50-60% though. I like the idea of two sequential 25% water changes instead of a single 50% one. One thing I do before a water change is to siphon the water into a bucket through a filter sock (300micron), and then pump that back to the tank. The idea being that this clears particulate matter, and then the water change reduces the dissolved organics. I've been trying to get on top of a Cyanobacter infestation for about 4 months now. I really understand what the OP is feeling!


----------



## Hanuman (26 May 2022)

Aleman said:


> ne thing I do before a water change is to siphon the water into a bucket through a filter sock (300micron), and then pump that back to the tank. The idea being that this clears particulate matter, and then the water change reduces the dissolved organics.


Not sure I understand the purpose why you are pumping water out to then pump it back in. You are only filtering large particles in suspension, not all organics specially those that are already dissolved, like sugars etc.



Aleman said:


> I've been trying to get on top of a Cyanobacter infestation for about 4 months now. I really understand what the OP is feeling!


Low nitrates, low oxygenation, higher temperature than usual, high organics, compaction. Those are in my experience what usually causes BGA outbreaks. If you want to control it in a 1-2 go, tackle the above, but I would suggest using Chemiclean to eradicate a big chunk of it and quick. I use twice a year on both of my tanks. No harms done after several years of use.


----------



## Wookii (26 May 2022)

Agreed - 300 micron isn't going to do a great deal @Aleman , I'd have thought you'd need to be sub-50 micron for starters, and not really necessary of you have a decent pre-filter on the filter. If you're pumping it back into the tank after just a 300 micron filter, especially if you're substrate vacuuming, you'll likely be helping to break sub-300 micron particles down further and spreading them all over your tank. Better to dump them down the sink, or onto your garden.


----------



## seedoubleyou (26 May 2022)

DaveP said:


> What would you recommend instead?


I wouldn’t mate. When you start the numbers game things get crazy.  Test kits are good for checking you’re getting the same results time and time again,  which in turn indicates consistency.

Other than that I wouldn’t even bother.


----------



## dw1305 (26 May 2022)

Hi all,


Hanuman said:


> Not sure I understand the purpose why you are pumping water out to then pump it back in. You are only filtering large particles in suspension, not all organics specially those that are already dissolved, like sugars etc.





xZaiox said:


> @jaypeecee sounds pretty sure that dissolved organics are the cause of BBA, so it might be best to start there first. Maybe try reviewing your tank cleaning methods and optimising flow in your tank.............I wonder if increased flow may sometimes help because it helps sweep away the organics more?





Wookii said:


> Agreed - 300 micron isn't going to do a great deal @Aleman , I'd have thought you'd need to be sub-50 micron for starters, and not really necessary of you have a decent pre-filter on the filter. If you're pumping it back into the tank after just a 300 micron filter, especially if you're substrate vacuuming, you'll likely be helping to break sub-300 micron particles down further and spreading them all over your tank. Better to dump them down the sink, or onto your garden.


I'm really keen on not getting any of the organic matter into the filter, I want all <"my mechanical filtration in an easy clean pre-filter">,  mainly because I worry that "_out of sight, is out of mind_".

Ramshorn snails will remove <"BBA over time">, I don't think they eat the obvious tufts, but they graze off the sporelings <"in the biofilm">, removing it over time. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hanuman (26 May 2022)

dw1305 said:


> I'm really keen on not getting any of the organic matter into the filter, I want all <"my mechanical filtration in an easy clean pre-filter">, mainly because I worry that "_out of sight, is out of mind_".


Indeed. That's why I chose a filter where one can easily remove the pre-filter for cleaning. Aquael Ultramax 2000. I clean it nearly on a weekly basis. In fact I have a spare foam that I simply swap with the dirty one. 3 minutes tops.


----------



## Andy Pierce (26 May 2022)

Aleman said:


> I like the idea of two sequential 25% water changes instead of a single 50% one.


You don't have to get all mathy here about 25+25 ≈ 50.  If you do a 50% water change and think you stirred up organics/debris or whatever go ahead and immediately do another 50% water change.


----------



## Aleman (26 May 2022)

Andy Pierce said:


> You don't have to get all mathy here about 25+25 ≈ 50.  If you do a 50% water change and think you stirred up organics/debris or whatever go ahead and immediately do another 50% water change.


Great idea, assuming the RO unit has caught up ... Actually it's more than possible, as I fill a 300L IBC container for water changes ... Remineralize and add ferts .... Hmmmm ... I might get on top of this bloody menace


----------



## jaypeecee (26 May 2022)

seedoubleyou said:


> PH test kits are inaccurate and a waste of money.


Hi @seedoubleyou 

On what evidence do you make this sweeping statement?

Hi @DaveP 

May I suggest that you try your JBL pH test kit on one of the liquids below. It's a rough-and-ready test to see what result you get:









						Learn the pH of Common Chemicals Like Vinegar and More
					

pH is a measure of the acidity of a substance. Here's a table of the pH of several common chemicals, like vinegar, lemon juice, pickles and more.




					www.thoughtco.com
				




According to this website, milk has a pH of 6.6. And, there's more:









						What Is the pH of Milk?
					

Do you know whether milk is considered an acid or a base? Here's a look at the pH of milk and the conditions that can change it.




					www.thoughtco.com
				




JPC


----------



## jaypeecee (26 May 2022)

Wookii said:


> 300 micron isn't going to do a great deal @Aleman , I'd have thought you'd need to be sub-50 micron for starters, and not really necessary of you have a decent pre-filter on the filter.


Hi @Wookii & Everyone

Just to get things in perspective, dissolved organic matter (DOM) is defined as the organic matter fraction in solution that passes through a 0.45 μm filter. Let's put this in context. According to many microbiology books, the average *size* of most *bacteria* is between 0.2 and 2.0 micrometer (diameter). However, there are some that hold this to range between 1 and 10 micrometers. This, however, only considers the diameter of the organisms and not the length.

JPC


----------



## seedoubleyou (26 May 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @seedoubleyou
> 
> On what evidence do you make this sweeping statement?
> 
> ...


And you reckon they got those results using your JBL home PH test kit?


----------



## jaypeecee (26 May 2022)

seedoubleyou said:


> And you reckon they got those results using your JBL home PH test kit?


Hi @seedoubleyou

I think you're missing the point that I'm trying to make. Of course, the figures provided in that link were not obtained from a test kit. I suggested measuring milk pH using the JBL test kit. If the result obtained deviates significantly from that shown in the link (6.6), then it may be wise to question the accuracy of the JBL pH test kit. Simple.

JPC


----------



## sparkyweasel (26 May 2022)

DaveP said:


> , the plants were going to cost > £200, so I paused that idea for a while.


You could get a big bunch of Elodea from a pond shop; it's cheap and fast-growing to increase your plant mass. You can replace it gradually with more interesting plants as and when funds allow.


----------



## jaypeecee (26 May 2022)

DaveP said:


> What would you recommend instead?


Hi @DaveP,

Please see post #60.

JPC


----------



## John q (26 May 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> If the result obtained deviates significantly from that shown in the link (6.6), then it may be wise to question the accuracy of the JBL pH test kit.


To be fair the ph of milk from the supermarket  can be anywhere between 6.4 and 6.8. 

Quote from above linked article.

"The pH of a glass of cow milk ranges from 6.4 to 6.8. Milk fresh from the cow typically has a pH between 6.5 and 6.7. The pH of milk changes over time."

Interestingly my ph meter measures Iceland milk at 6.89, maybe I need to recalibrate it. 😁


----------



## jaypeecee (26 May 2022)

Hi @John q 

Yes, the article does indicate a range of milk pH values and I was aware of this when I suggested milk as a possible reference. But, my priority was that it should be a readily-available household substance and that it was safe to use. Perhaps you'd like to suggest an alternative that falls within the pH range of the JBL test kit (6.0 - 7.6). The objective is simply to validate measurements made by the JBL test kit. Or not, as the case may be! And, please feel free to suggest an alternative method entirely.

JPC


----------



## John q (26 May 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> The objective is simply to validate measurements made by the JBL test kit. Or not, as the case may be!


Apologies if my post came across in a mocking fashion @jaypeecee  that wasn't my intention.  I mentioned the possible pH range merely to inform the op that a definite 6.6 wasn't set in stone. 

For what it's worth I think you've suggested a good way to determine if the jbl test is "good enough" for our purposes, if its somewhere near 6.4 ~ 6.8, and as long as it gets repeatable readings, then its good enough for our needs. 

BTW, I genuinely think I need to recalibrate my ph meter, that wasn't a joke.


----------



## jaypeecee (26 May 2022)

Hi @John q 

Another option is saliva! I don't think I'd get very far suggesting this to NIST* but, according to Wikipedia, "Saliva maintains the pH of the mouth. Saliva is supersaturated with various ions. Certain salivary proteins prevent precipitation, which would form salts. These ions act as a buffer, keeping the acidity of the mouth within a certain range, typically pH 6.2–7.4."

* NIST = National Institute of Standards and Technology

JPC


----------



## jaypeecee (26 May 2022)

John q said:


> Apologies if my post came across in a mocking fashion @jaypeecee that wasn't my intention.


Hi @John q 

No problem. I didn't interpret your reply as being in a mocking fashion. All is well.

JPC


----------



## jaypeecee (26 May 2022)

John q said:


> For what it's worth I think you've suggested a good way to determine if the jbl test is "good enough" for our purposes, if its somewhere near 6.4 ~ 6.8, and as long as it gets repeatable readings, then its good enough for our needs.


Hi @John q 

Thanks for the feedback.



John q said:


> BTW, I genuinely think I need to recalibrate my ph meter, that wasn't a joke.


Hi again, @John q 

I need a self-checking, self-calibrating pH meter! 

JPC


----------



## DaveP (27 May 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> Please see post #60.


Thanks!  I couldn't find my old PH kit, so all I've got is the tester as part of my bigger test kit, which only measures to 0.5 PH increments.  So I need to get the one you recommended.
I tested, and it looks like the PH is 7.5 pre-gas and 6.5 by the time lights come on, but of course the accuracy isn't going to be 100% with my kit, but at least I can see a reasonable change.


----------



## DaveP (27 May 2022)

Thanks for everyone who has responded, I'm really impressed with the warmth and helfulness of this community!

I'm going to follow the advice on light, CO2 and Ferts - and of course my maintenance practices, which have been chucking organics everywhere in the tank!

I have a few questions from the advice given:

1. Will the BBA go away after a while of following the new advice, or do I need to take out all the hardscape and nuke it with Hydrogen Peroxide or similar and replace?

2. What light intensity do you advise I should use?  i've dropped to 50% (and some of the fish are out more rather than hiding in the shade), so I go down more than that?

3. Should the CO2 stay at a 1 PH drop regardless of light intensity?

4. Should the ferts drop if light is lower - presumably that will give slower growth?

5. In the past I've found that flow in some areas suffers when there's more plant mass due to stem plants growing up and taking lots of space (like my rotala is doing now), any advice/insight into this?  I think my flow is really good in 70% of the tank, but not sure about the rest.

Thanks!


----------



## jaypeecee (27 May 2022)

Hi @DaveP 

I'm confused. Just to be clear, please confirm which is your old pH kit, which is your bigger test kit and what is the tester that was in it?

JPC


----------



## Wookii (27 May 2022)

DaveP said:


> 1. Will the BBA go away after a while of following the new advice, or do I need to take out all the hardscape and nuke it with Hydrogen Peroxide or similar and replace?



It will recede on its own, but it can be very persistent and take a long time even if it is no longer growing. I personally prefer to mist it with some Excel to give it the final kick in the nuts!  Just turn the filter off, and use a syringe to mist the CO2 over the affected areas. Leave the filter off for a further 15 minutes, then turn it back on again. The BBA should turn pink after a while, and then start to break down. Any shrimp you add will feast on it in short order. Don't exceed the recommend tank dose of Excel with the amount you mist over the BBA, and don't worry if that means its not enough to treat all areas on day one. Do one area one day, wait two days for the Excel to break down, and then treat the next area, and so on.



DaveP said:


> 2. What light intensity do you advise I should use? i've dropped to 50% (and some of the fish are out more rather than hiding in the shade), so I go down more than that?



Its difficult to know for sure, you'll have to play it by ear - I would have thought 40-50% to start with and see how it goes.



DaveP said:


> 4. Should the ferts drop if light is lower - presumably that will give slower growth?



No, definitely not.  The lower light may slow growth, but you still want to ensure an excess of ferts, so don't mess with that so its a variable you don't have to think about for now.



DaveP said:


> 5. In the past I've found that flow in some areas suffers when there's more plant mass due to stem plants growing up and taking lots of space (like my rotala is doing now), any advice/insight into this? I think my flow is really good in 70% of the tank, but not sure about the rest.



You may need to experiment with filter inlet and outlet placement to maximise flow. Adding a stream pump or skimmer can help with deadspots.


----------



## DaveP (27 May 2022)

Wookii said:


> It will recede on its own, but it can be very persistent and take a long time even if it is no longer growing. I personally prefer to mist it with some Excel to give it the final kick in the nuts!  Just turn the filter off, and use a syringe to mist the CO2 over the affected areas. Leave the filter off for a further 15 minutes, then turn it back on again. The BBA should turn pink after a while, and then start to break down. Any shrimp you add will feast on it in short order. Don't exceed the recommend tank dose of Excel with the amount you mist over the BBA, and don't worry if that means its not enough to treat all areas on day one. Do one area one day, wait two days for the Excel to break down, and then treat the next area, and so on.
> 
> Its difficult to know for sure, you'll have to play it by ear - I would have thought 40-50% to start with and see how it goes.
> 
> ...


Thanks!! I'll get on with it and hopefully will have some results to show before too long!


----------



## DaveP (27 May 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @DaveP
> 
> I'm confused. Just to be clear, please confirm which is your old pH kit, which is your bigger test kit and what is the tester that was in it?
> 
> JPC


I had a JBL test kits, but it was used for an old tank (not much planted) a few years ago and I can't find it now.

The test kit I use is an NT Labs Multi test kit - it has a broad range PH 6-9 test in 0.5 increments.


----------



## seedoubleyou (27 May 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @seedoubleyou
> 
> I think you're missing the point that I'm trying to make. Of course, the figures provided in that link were not obtained from a test kit. I suggested measuring milk pH using the JBL test kit. If the result obtained deviates significantly from that shown in the link (6.6), then it may be wise to question the accuracy of the JBL pH test kit. Simple.
> 
> JPC


I’m just playing with you mate.
I don’t think a JBL test kit will work to measure the PH of milk, so it wouldn’t be a valid test.
My initial comment was based of having no faith in liquid test kits that require you to make a comparison between colours.
I think as hobbyist we end up cheating ourselves into seeing what we want to see.


----------



## seedoubleyou (27 May 2022)

They make PH probes specifically for testing the PH of milk, your hobbyist probe wouldn’t work in that instance.
It would be like using a refractometer for measuring the specific gravity of water, to measure the specific gravity of honey.


----------



## jaypeecee (27 May 2022)

seedoubleyou said:


> I’m just playing with you mate.


Fun, isn't it?


seedoubleyou said:


> They make PH probes specifically for testing the PH of milk, your hobbyist probe wouldn’t work in that instance.
> It would be like using a refractometer for measuring the specific gravity of water, to measure the specific gravity of honey.





seedoubleyou said:


> I don’t think a JBL test kit will work to measure the PH of milk, so it wouldn’t be a valid test.


And you may be correct. But, it was at least worth suggesting.



seedoubleyou said:


> My initial comment was based of having no faith in liquid test kits that require you to make a comparison between colours.


It is true that comparing colours is not ideal but I'd rather have a ballpark figure than no figure at all.

JPC


----------



## John q (27 May 2022)

seedoubleyou said:


> They make PH probes specifically for testing the PH of milk, your hobbyist probe wouldn’t work in that instance.


Works for  me,  sometimes you have to question who's being told what  by whom.  Most cheese makers use test strips to determine when then milk is ready to "be turned in to cheese", folks that breed horses know when they're about to foal with ph test kits, or strips, and we worry our "test kits" are inaccurate.... makes you wonder how important a test kit is? I always find trying it before passing judgment.  @seedoubleyou  what reading do you get in milk with your ph probe?


----------



## seedoubleyou (27 May 2022)

John q said:


> @seedoubleyou what reading do you get in milk with your ph probe


I don’t think you’ve understood the point I’m making mate. 
I don’t use any test kits. I don’t trust any of them and I don’t trust myself with them.
It’s far more effective to observe the health of your tank and make subtle changes as and when required.
Also does your point even confirm the accuracy of a PH test or does it just indicate a change that then indicates whether a milk is ready for cheese or a horse is about to drop?


----------



## John q (27 May 2022)

seedoubleyou said:


> I don’t think you’ve understood the point I’m making mate.


Probably not. Leave you with a pic and reiterate *"who's being sold what by whom"*


----------



## Andy Pierce (27 May 2022)

seedoubleyou said:


> I don’t use any test kits. I don’t trust any of them and I don’t trust myself with them.


I'm in this camp also.  In any type of long-term setup with a reasonably defined maintenance routine, the tank is going to come to an equilibrium on its own.  There's not much point in trying to fight whatever that equilibrium is, so it doesn't matter what the test results show.  The only test I do every day is a look at the drop checker (dissolved CO2 test) to make sure the injected CO2 is behaving normally.


----------



## seedoubleyou (27 May 2022)

John q said:


> Probably not. Leave you with a pic and reiterate *"who's being sold what by whom"*
> 
> View attachment 189193


No one’s being sold anything by anyone. It’s a forum full of personal opinion. If people can’t make up their own minds then it’s great to have people like yourself that can provide a little evidence.

Do I still stick to my point of test kits being a load of rubbish, absolutely.
Do they make PH “Probes” (not test kits) for milk, yes they do.
DID I believe a standard PH “probe” wouldn’t work in milk, honestly yeah I did. But I’ve since discovered they do.

Was my argument ever based on the effectiveness or not of a PH Probe, no it wasn’t I was only ever talking about test kits. If it came across as anything else, then that’s my bad.


----------



## seedoubleyou (27 May 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> It is true that comparing colours is not ideal but I'd rather have a ballpark figure than no figure at all.


Yeah I did say in one of my posts that they’re good for at least seeing consistency. Which IMO is for more important than the specific numbers. 
Obviously there’s caveats to that.


----------



## John q (27 May 2022)

seedoubleyou said:


> Was my argument ever based on the effectiveness or not of a PH Probe, no it wasn’t I was only ever talking about test kits. If it came across as anything else, then that’s my bad.


To be fair I stopped testing a long time ago.. just pulling your leg mate, hence..   who's being led by whom. 
Back to the op's issues..


----------



## jaypeecee (27 May 2022)

Hi Guys,

I just have one thing to add......

Mmmmooooo!

JPC


----------



## xZaiox (28 May 2022)

Hi @DaveP - I'm just gonna comment on a few of these since @Wookii gave you good advice.


DaveP said:


> 2. What light intensity do you advise I should use?  i've dropped to 50% (and some of the fish are out more rather than hiding in the shade), so I go down more than that?


I would probably go 40%. The S series has quite decent PAR ratings, so I think a lower percentage is worthwhile when recovering from algae. I turned mine down to 40% when I had algae issues.


DaveP said:


> 3. Should the CO2 stay at a 1 PH drop regardless of light intensity?





DaveP said:


> 4. Should the ferts drop if light is lower - presumably that will give slower growth?


Going to address these two (3 & 4) together - speaking in metaphors, the light in a planted tank is like a cars gas pedal; it decides how fast everything moves, the higher the lighting, the faster plants intake nutrients and grow. CO2 and nutrients don't decide how fast a plant grows, they decide how healthy it grows. An unhealthy plant will grow slower because it becomes limited for key nutrients. So for example, if we limit nitrate, then the plants will grow slower, but that's because they're stunted, and this will be observable (i.e smaller leaf blades, crippled growth, altered colouring etc). 

For this reason, if you ever want to change the 'speed' of your plants in your tank, alter the lighting. Never compromise CO2 or nutrients in an attempt to control growth rates.


DaveP said:


> 5. In the past I've found that flow in some areas suffers when there's more plant mass due to stem plants growing up and taking lots of space (like my rotala is doing now), any advice/insight into this?  I think my flow is really good in 70% of the tank, but not sure about the rest.


Going back to the first post you made, it looks like your intake is towards the front of the tank, while your outtake is around the middle? This should generally be reversed, you want the outtake to be at the front side of the glass so that the water hits the glass at the other side and pushes the water down - try swapping the positions of your intake and outtake and see if that helps. This can also generally depend on the tank setup i.e hardscape and planting, so you may just have to experiment to find the best placements.


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## Easternlethal (28 May 2022)

DaveP said:


> Thanks for everyone who has responded, I'm really impressed with the warmth and helfulness of this community!
> 
> I'm going to follow the advice on light, CO2 and Ferts - and of course my maintenance practices, which have been chucking organics everywhere in the tank!
> 
> ...



These are all questions and the reason why I think approaching algae by tuning ferts co2 and lighting can create more issues than it solves. 

If you have a tank with plants which are already growing fine (which you do, and a beautifully composed tank it is) I would not mess with it in the short run and just focus on cleaning and removing. This is important because if you change too many factors you will not get the understanding needed to know how bba is growing. Once you're on top of the bba through cleaning over several weeks you will start to appreciate how fast it is growing relative to your other plants, which spots, and then you can adjust as needed. By then you will have a specific cause for that spot e.g. organics accumulating due to poor flow, dead matter or poor growth which you can tweak. Who knows - you may not even need to adjust anything if you develop a cleaning regime you're comfortable with and plants are outpacing it.

Even when cleaning there are already enough techniques to experiment with which may affect bba growth, fanning, vaccuming, flow based etc. etc.

When ada hires staff they start them off cleaning tanks before allowing them to do wcs or adjusting anything and I believe it really helps to gain the understanding needed for parameter tweaking later.

In my view this looks like a tank which just isn't cleaned properly.


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## Matti (30 May 2022)

DaveP said:


> Thanks for everyone who has responded, I'm really impressed with the warmth and helfulness of this community!
> 
> I'm going to follow the advice on light, CO2 and Ferts - and of course my maintenance practices, which have been chucking organics everywhere in the tank!
> 
> ...


Hi,
if you get the basics right: weekly water changes, light, ferts and CO2, BBA will stop growing. And with right CO2 levels I mean levels around 30ppm. If you have levels somewhere 10-15 BBA will just keep growing.
It's bit tricky to get the levels right, for me it took couple of weeks of measuring  KH/PH levels and adjusting the drops/second, the time when the co2 is turned on, and the amount of light. I have now CO2 on 2,5 hours before the lights. The amount of light also affects the CO2-levels, more light=less CO2 and vice versa.
Once you have the basics, you have the get rid of the existing BBA. Shrimps and SAE won't eat it, and it won't disappear by itself.
Time to bring in the big guns! Drain as much water as possible, take away your face and spray the affected areas with glutardehyde and water mixture 1/3. Wait for 5 minutes and fill the tank. Do a 50% water change right after. The BBA is gone in a week. Caution! BBA will certainly die, but it can melt your plants. So try it first on a smaller area.
A safer way is to spray the tank with 3% hydrogen peroxide, but test this too before spraying the whole tank!
Third way is to use bleach. Remove the plants, dip them in 1/ 3 bleach/water for 30 seconds and right after rinse them in water with dechlorinator, like Tetra aqua safe. The bba is gone immediately.

PS, health plants are resistant to almost any algae, and besides CO2 pay attention to ferts, especially sufficent  nitrogen and potassium levels. In my humble experience they are the most likely cause to a deficiency , even if you dose your fert of choice according to instructions. And the third one to monitor in magnesium, especially if you have Anubis that start growing new leaves that look somehow twisted and pale.

Matti


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## DaveP (27 Jun 2022)

An update for interest.  I really appreciated all the help and suggestions!  I have followed the advice I got in the thread.  I've had success in getting rid of the algae and it hasn't returned, so that's great.
However, I didn't properly follow the advice on testing before using the glutaraldehyde solution on the plants and I lost everything I sprayed (most of them)! I should have been more cautious. So the tank is very bare and needs replanting fully. And unfortunately I lost a big Amano and the German RAM - I'm not sure, but I either used too much glutaraldehyde or too much Prime as I did quite a few water changes during the process and was anxious about the chlorine, so I used a few capfuls over the process.
My conclusions from the whole thing are that the main cause of such bad algae was that I wasn't cleaning properly and the light intensity was just too high for my regime (it's at 40% right now and seems fine and some of the fish are hiding less). I haven't changed CO2 (I tested and it was a 1PH drop) or ferts, I think they were both high enough. I have also switched the intake and outtake locations and the flow is better, so that didn't help. 
Anyway, thanks for all the help, I now have a tank which needs some work replanting, but I've decided that I just don't have enough time to keep a healthy planted tank like this one at the moment. So I'm going to sell it and come back to it again when I retire in a few years! I guess I could list it in the for sale, or try Facebook marketplace?
Again, the help is really appreciated and I'll stay on the forum and get ready for a new project when I have the time to do it properly and do it justice.


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## Andy Pierce (27 Jun 2022)

Actually, now that you've got the parameters figured out your maintenance requirements will go way down, to essentially ferts, feeding and a weekly water change, which isn't that different from what you'd do with a non-planted tank.  Why not keep on with it for a few more months to see whether this is the kind of thing you could keep on with for you?  Seems a pity to bail right after getting past the hard part!


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## DaveP (27 Jun 2022)

Andy Pierce said:


> Actually, now that you've got the parameters figured out your maintenance requirements will go way down, to essentially ferts, feeding and a weekly water change, which isn't that different from what you'd do with a non-planted tank.  Why not keep on with it for a few more months to see whether this is the kind of thing you could keep on with for you?  Seems a pity to bail right after getting past the hard part!


Yes, that's definitely been going through my mind!  But once it gets all planted up again, I'll still have to spend a considerable time each week keeping on top of it.  I am sorely tempted, but I also know I need to reduce my time pressure...


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## _Maq_ (27 Jun 2022)

xZaiox said:


> @DaveP am I right in thinking that you're draining the tanks water from one location, and relying on the detritus being suspended in the water column in order to remove it? I don't remove waste in my tank in this manner, so I can't really comment on whether or not that's okay, but it does make me wonder if that might just be kicking up a bunch of organics into the water column and it settling on plants. You aren't doing 100% water changes, so not all of that organic material is being removed. Typically, just siphoning above the substrate to pull up anything light will do the job.
> 
> One of the biggest causes of algae in general is ammonia, which obviously comes from decaying organic matter in our tanks.


No. Not the ammonia, it's the detritus spread everywhere.


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