# Surface scum & is increased flow too strong for a Betta?



## laurenb252 (4 Jan 2022)

Hi everyone,

I’m in the process of cycling a 30L (8 US gallons) tank that will eventually be a home for a Betta. This will also be a planted aquarium, and I’ll be dosing CO2 for the first time.

Upon going to test the water today, I noticed there was a fair bit of surface scum on the water, is this bad? I’ve brought the internal filter closer to the surface to create some more agitation but now I’m not sure if this flow will be too strong for a Betta or not. I’m also considering having floating plants to give the fish some cover, but the increased agitation will surely blow the plants around everywhere. 

So, am I ok to have a planted, CO2 injected, Betta tank with decreased flow and a bit of surface scum, or will increased flow be better?


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## dw1305 (4 Jan 2022)

Hi all, 
Welcome to UKAPS.


laurenb252 said:


> I’m in the process of cycling a 30L (8 US gallons) tank


How are you cycling it?

cheers Darrel


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## MichaelJ (4 Jan 2022)

laurenb252 said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I’m in the process of cycling a 30L (8 US gallons) tank that will eventually be a home for a Betta. This will also be a planted aquarium, and I’ll be dosing CO2 for the first time.
> 
> ...



@laurenb252  Welcome to UKAPS  

From the picture it looks like you do not have any plants in the tank. You should get the tank planted right away - the more plants the better!  

As I assume this is a brand new tank, I suppose the surface scum will recede over time. Since there is nothing else in the tank it likely originate from the gravel / substrate - looks like your using an enriched substrate / aqua soil of sorts?

As for floating plants and flow. Of course, there is a limit to how strong you want the flow - you do not want the plants to tumble around - or the betta to be stressed out when introduced. I have pretty good surface agitation in my tanks and plenty of floating plants (Frogbit, pennyworth and duckweed) and the plants are fine being carried around a bit by the surface agitation.  Ideally, if you can adjust the flow on your filter, you can always dial it down and back up as you get more plant growth to make sure you get the nutrients/CO2 distributed around the tank.

Cheers,
Michael


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## dino21 (4 Jan 2022)

Hi,
It might seem a little on the big size for your 30L tank but these little surface skimmers work well and cost just £12 inc post.
They have an adjustable outlet flow so you can set it to suit your tank and it also has an air venturi hose.
Used them for years, very quiet ( venturi off)  and the little filter is very easy to change.
Aquarium Surface Skimmers for Sale - Allpondsolutions


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## MichaelJ (4 Jan 2022)

dino21 said:


> Hi,
> It might seem a little on the big size for your 30L tank but these little surface skimmers work well and cost just £12 inc post.
> They have an adjustable outlet flow so you can set it to suit your tank and it also has an air venturi hose.
> Used them for years, very quiet ( venturi off)  and the little filter is very easy to change.
> Aquarium Surface Skimmers for Sale - Allpondsolutions


+1  I used to have those in both my tanks. Very good actually. Needs frequent cleaning to avoid clogging up especially if you have floating plants such as duckweed, but you can tweak it for the better by replacing the filter media that comes with the skimmer with a medium coarse sponge cut out to match the size. Worked well for me.

Cheers,
Michael


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## laurenb252 (4 Jan 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> Welcome to UKAPS.
> 
> How are you cycling it?
> ...


Hi Darrel,

I’m cycling the tank using Dr Tims liquid ammonia, and following the instructions provided. Heading into a nitrite spike at the moment so it’s moving along nicely. 

I’m following the dark start method (just turned the light on for a brief second to take the attached photo) and will plant the tank once the cycle has completed!


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## laurenb252 (4 Jan 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> @laurenb252  Welcome to UKAPS
> 
> From the picture it looks like you do not have any plants in the tank. You should get the tank planted right away - the more plants the better!
> 
> ...


Hi Michael,

Yep, no plants in there for now but I plan to plant densely once the cycle’s complete! The substrate is Fluval Stratum. 

Unfortunately this filter has no option to adjust the flow, I can only move it closer and further away from the surface. I may have to try and tie something over the inlet to find a good amount of agitation that’s keeping the surface clean but is also suitable for the plants and fish. I did try using the Dennerle Nano XL filter which seems to have some kind of spray bar, but it was too noisy for me (the tank is kept in a bedroom) so I’m quite picky about how loud it is!


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## MichaelJ (4 Jan 2022)

laurenb252 said:


> Yep, no plants in there for now but I plan to plant densely once the cycle’s complete!


Hi @laurenb252  I am not familiar with Dr. Tims liquid ammonia product, I take it it is some sort of "cycle" product... are you sure the product really recommend doing it without any plants?  anyway, I guess so as you probably have used it before and/or read up on it.

I am curious how that works and what the benefit would be using it without plants?  Darrel / @dw1305 any ideas?

Cheers,
Michael


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## Aqua360 (5 Jan 2022)

laurenb252 said:


> Hi Michael,
> 
> Yep, no plants in there for now but I plan to plant densely once the cycle’s complete! The substrate is Fluval Stratum.
> 
> Unfortunately this filter has no option to adjust the flow, I can only move it closer and further away from the surface. I may have to try and tie something over the inlet to find a good amount of agitation that’s keeping the surface clean but is also suitable for the plants and fish. I did try using the Dennerle Nano XL filter which seems to have some kind of spray bar, but it was too noisy for me (the tank is kept in a bedroom) so I’m quite picky about how loud it is!



I'm surprised you found the dennerle corner filter loud, it could be that it just needs to develop some slime on the impeller before you notice a difference. 

I've found it to be the quietest filter I've ever owned, almost fully silent once it's settled down


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## laurenb252 (5 Jan 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> Hi @laurenb252  I am not familiar with Dr. Tims liquid ammonia product, I take it it is some sort of "cycle" product... are you sure the product really recommend doing it without any plants?  anyway, I guess so as you probably have used it before and/or read up on it.
> 
> I am curious how that works and what the benefit would be using it without plants?  Darrel / @dw1305 any ideas?
> 
> ...


Hi Michael,

It’s a bottle of ammonium chloride. They don’t specifically mention cycling the tank without plants, but I’ve decided to try it this way after seeing this video here: 



I’d be interested to see if anyone here has used this method and had any success with it!


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## dw1305 (5 Jan 2022)

Hi all,


laurenb252 said:


> I’m cycling the tank using Dr Tims liquid ammonia, and following the instructions provided. Heading into a nitrite spike at the moment so it’s moving along nicely....I’m following the dark start method


You can stop adding the ammonia, do a water change and plant the tank. A few members <"have used dark start"> (with ADA Amazonia etc) where the substrate leaches a lot of ammonia initially, but if you don't have an ammonia rich substrate there isn't any advantage to adding ammonia. 


MichaelJ said:


> I am not familiar with Dr. Tims liquid ammonia product.


Dr Tim's liquid ammonia is just <"a solution of ammonium chloride (NH4Cl)"> designed to add the "3 ppm ammonia" used in "fishless cycling". The idea is that you use it in conjunction with his microbial supplement <"One and only">.


MichaelJ said:


> ... I am curious how that works and what the benefit would be using it without plants? Darrel / @dw1305 any ideas?


If you don't have plants you need to establish nitrification in the filter and one way of doing this is to add ammonia and a bacterial supplement. The idea is that the filter will be primed to receive a large fish load in one hit. You use testing to determine when the filter is efficiently converting ammonia (NH3) and nitrite (NO2-) to nitrate (NO3-), and at that point you add the fish. I'll call it <"the "mbuna" scenario">.

<"Ammonia based cycling"> doesn't <"offer any advantage with plants">, none of the bacteria that were thought to be essential for nitrification <"actually occur in aquarium filters">. You wouldn't know it from most aquarium literature and forums, but the <"traditional linear view of cycling definitely isn't right">.

<"Dr Hovanec"> talks about what we know now in:




cheers Darrel


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## MichaelJ (5 Jan 2022)

dw1305 said:


> If you don't have plants you need to establish nitrification in the filter and one way of doing this is to add ammonia and a bacterial supplement. The idea is that the filter will be primed to receive a large fish load in one hit. You use testing to determine when the filter is efficiently converting ammonia (NH3) and nitrite (NO2-) to nitrate (NO3-), and at that point you add the fish. I'll call it <"the "mbuna" scenario">.


Yes, I get that for a plant-less tank to prime the filter for nitrification, but was just wondering what the idea would be if you _plan_ to have a reasonably densely planted tank anyway?  I still think if you plant dense from the get go you can skip this.  


dw1305 said:


> <"Ammonia based cycling"> doesn't <"offer any advantage with plants">, none of the bacteria that were thought to be essential for nitrification <"actually occur in aquarium filters">. You wouldn't know it from most aquarium literature and forums, but the <"traditional linear view of cycling definitely isn't right">.


I guess this answers my question     ... perhaps adding the ammonia  accelerates the process a bit?

Cheers,
Michael


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## laurenb252 (5 Jan 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> You can stop adding the ammonia, do a water change and plant the tank. A few members <"have used dark start"> (with ADA Amazonia etc) where the substrate leaches a lot of ammonia initially, but if you don't have an ammonia rich substrate there isn't any advantage to adding ammonia.
> 
> ...



Hi,

Thanks for the detailed reply! I didn't use the 'one and only' product as in the filter there is media that was previously used in an established tank. I assumed that this would kickstart the cycling process and ensure that the filter can effectively convert higher levels of ammonia and nitrite?

I'll take a look at the linked video and get some plants in the tank very soon.

Thanks


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## Konsa (5 Jan 2022)

Hi
How well the bacteria is doing its job is very dependent on the oxygen levels in there.
Instead of adding stuff make sure the water is oxygenated well.Lift the filter so it breaks the water surface.This will get rid of the film and improve oxygen levels. Later when planted you can lower it down and plants will supply the oxygen. Plant mass and hardcape will hinder the flow further if it feels too strong now will be different once plants grow in , dependent on species chosen of coarse.
Regards Konstantin


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## jaypeecee (5 Jan 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> I am curious how that works and what the benefit would be using it without plants? Darrel / @dw1305 any ideas?
> 
> Cheers,


Hi @MichaelJ

I favour 'cycling' without plants as it's easier to control the process. Less variables. If plants are also taking up ammonia at the same time as nitrifying bacteria, it's difficult, perhaps impossible to know how well the cycling process is progressing. I have always excluded plants when cycling as it can speed up the process and be ready to introduce livestock earlier as a result. Using Tetra _SafeStart_, I have cycled a tank in just six days. After that, the plants and a few fish can be added.

JPC


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## dw1305 (5 Jan 2022)

Hi all,


laurenb252 said:


> here is media that was previously used in an established tank.


That is always the best way to start a new tank.


laurenb252 said:


> I assumed that this would kickstart the cycling process and ensure that the filter can effectively convert higher levels of ammonia and nitrite?


It won't have done any good, but it may have done less harm than it would have done if you had started from scratch with no microbial flora. Once you stop adding ammonia hopefully the <"dormant _Nitrospira_, AOA and AOB"> will begin to grow in abundance and the bacteria that had been favoured by high ammonia loadings will become dormant.


Konsa said:


> Instead of adding stuff make sure the water is oxygenated well.Lift the filter so it breaks the water surface.This will get rid of the film and improve oxygen levels.


Yes, plenty of oxygen will be required until the plants are in active growth, once the plants are growing they are net oxygen producers and they will help maintain oxygen levels.


jaypeecee said:


> If plants are also taking up ammonia at the same time as nitrifying bacteria, it's difficult, perhaps impossible to know how well the cycling process is progressing.


They aren't really separate processes. Personally I don't care where ammonia removal is happening, the important bit is that it (and any nitrite (NO2-)) is removed. The advantage of plants is just that you can use their growth and leaf colour as a measure of how "fish safe" the tank is.


jaypeecee said:


> I have always excluded plants when cycling as it can speed up the process and be ready to introduce livestock earlier as a result. Using Tetra _SafeStart_, I have cycled a tank in just six days. After that, the plants and a few fish can be added.


Personally I'm always going to want the plants grown in before I add any fish, and then I'm going to add the fish fairly slowly. It might not be strictly, but it has a very low chance of failure (at least in terms of water quality issues).

Ideally I would like <"root growth like this"> before any fish were added.





cheers Darrel


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## hypnogogia (5 Jan 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Personally I'm always going to want the plants grown in before I add any fish, and then I'm going to add the fish fairly slowly. It might not be strictly, but it has a very low chance of failure in terms of water quality issues.


Exactly this.  Slowly increase the bio loading on the tank.


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## jaypeecee (5 Jan 2022)

dw1305 said:


> <"Ammonia based cycling"> doesn't <"offer any advantage with plants">,


Hi @dw1305 

On this topic, perhaps we should agree to disagree. And, still be friends! I think it's only right to point to the pros and cons of each approach and let the reader decide. Perhaps we should create a sticky (or similar) to which we can point people and then everyone can decide for themselves? What say you, Darrel?

JPC


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## dw1305 (5 Jan 2022)

Hi all, 
@jaypeecee I think we we can agree to disagree.

I'd guess that people will do whatever they think is best. I'll be honest, if I'd <"read all the cycling advice"> and then some-one (who I don't know from Adam or Eve) started telling me that it is "_all wrong_" I would probably disregard them and carry on with the ammonia. 

For whatever reason cycling is an <"incredibly divisive area"> and although "_plant and wait_" is a lot less controversial than it was <"when I started advising it">, I still receive a trickle of what can only be described as <"hate mail">.

cheers Darrel


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## MichaelJ (5 Jan 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @MichaelJ
> 
> I favour 'cycling' without plants as it's easier to control the process. Less variables. If plants are also taking up ammonia at the same time as nitrifying bacteria, it's difficult, perhaps impossible to know how well the cycling process is progressing. I have always excluded plants when cycling as it can speed up the process and be ready to introduce livestock earlier as a result. Using Tetra _SafeStart_, I have cycled a tank in just six days. After that, the plants and a few fish can be added.


Yes, I have done that too...   Now that I come to think about it I actually added SafeStart to my current tanks when I restarted the hobby a couple of years ago, but I also planted heavily right away.. (still a having a lot of the plants that I planted originally). Truth be told, I've never really consistently monitored my total ammonia (NH4+NH3) or NO2 levels during "cycling" - just waited a few weeks doing some regular water chances along the way and waiting for some growth and my filter getting "dirty" before slowly adding fish - yes, I've lost a few fish early on - which could theoretically be due to NH3 - but never anything catastrophic.

Cheers,
Michael


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## jaypeecee (5 Jan 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Personally I'm always going to want the plants grown in before I add any fish, and then I'm going to add the fish fairly slowly. It might not be strictly, but it has a very low chance of failure (at least in terms of water quality issues).


Hi @dw1305 

I have 'cycled' tanks many times using the ammonium chloride and Tetra _SafeStart_ approach. Keeping a close watch on ammonia, nitrite and nitrate with good quality test kits is key to success. I have never had any casualties from adopting this approach. But, I used to have no end of problems with trying to raise healthy plants - even Frogbit. If I'd waited until I felt confident in growing healthy aquatic plants, I'd only just be starting to keep fish.

I used to be a Moderator on A N Other forum. They all adopted the ammonia and bottled bacteria approach. You should have seen some of the so-called plants in their tanks. Or, maybe not!

JPC


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## sparkyweasel (5 Jan 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> Using Tetra _SafeStart_, I have cycled a tank in just six days. After that, the plants and a few fish can be added.


Tetra claim you can fully stock the tank on day one, and I have done that in the past, several times, with no problems.
It's a long time since I've wanted or needed a tank up and running in a hurry so I haven't done it for a while.


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## jaypeecee (5 Jan 2022)

laurenb252 said:


> I noticed there was a fair bit of surface scum on the water, is this bad?


Hi @laurenb252 

It is not at all unusual to develop a surface scum on the water. In fact, it is to be expected. It _is_ likely to be a problem as it prevents an exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide at the water surface. A surface skimmer is normally effective as others have indicated. I suspect that the Eheim skim 350 may be the best choice in a small tank. I use one in a 30 litre cube. But, many UKAPS members (including myself) have found that it has a design flaw. It is not effective in preventing small fish and/or shrimp from being sucked into it. Many of us have found that this needn't be a showstopper. Please take a look at:









						Eheim Skim 350 Modifications review
					

I recently purchased an Eheim Skim 350 and found myself in the same spot as many others, needing to shrimp and fish-proof the skimmer opening. I have tried out various materials and figured I would list them here for the benefit of others :)  Modification number 1 was a covering of this very...



					www.ukaps.org
				




Otherwise, it does a good job and isn't too difficult to clean.

JPC


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## laurenb252 (5 Jan 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @laurenb252
> 
> It is not at all unusual to develop a surface scum on the water. In fact, it is to be expected. It _is_ likely to be a problem as it prevents an exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide at the water surface. A surface skimmer is normally effective as others have indicated. I suspect that the Eheim skim 350 may be the best choice in a small tank. I use one in a 30 litre cube. But, many UKAPS members (including myself) have found that it has a design flaw. It is not effective in preventing small fish and/or shrimp from being sucked into it. Many of us have found that this needn't be a showstopper. Please take a look at:
> 
> ...


Hi @jaypeecee,

Thanks for sending that across, I’ll take a look. I checked the tank this evening and the surface scum I described has already cleared up significantly after bringing the filter closer to the surface of the water. 

The tank seems to be halfway through the cycling process at the moment, yesterday the nitrite levels spiked so I should start to see some nitrate once that goes down to 0. I’m just going to keep testing thoroughly, get some plants & CO2 in once it’s cycled, and monitor everything for a while before getting the Betta. Hopefully that way I should avoid any problems!


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## MichaelJ (5 Jan 2022)

sparkyweasel said:


> Tetra claim you can fully stock the tank on day one, and I have done that in the past, several times, with no problems.


Yes, I've seen people who would just put some filter media (and a bit of water) from an existing tank into the new filter and new tank and stock it right away without problems.

If I had to set up a new tank tomorrow I would probably do the same - and plant heavily right away.

Cheers,
Michael


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## MichaelJ (6 Jan 2022)

dw1305 said:


> For whatever reason cycling is an <"incredibly divisive area">


Beats me as well why people get so riled up about this.... "cycled" or not, it's all the mistakes made afterwards that ruins the experience...

Cheers,
Michael


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## erwin123 (6 Jan 2022)

I also had an issue with surface film in my 16 litre tank. there was really no space for a traditional surface skimmer so I installed a usb pump instead. Agitation of the water surface by the pump (without any filtration) was sufficient to make the film disappear. (Same principle as having a skimmer on the Lily pipe outlet - no filtration, just push the surface film down so that the regular filter can deal with it)

if you feel that the pump flow is too strong, you can put a piece of fine filter wool (I have experimented with a 100 micron polishing pad) , this will slow down the flow, and at the same time, the filter media can 'absorb' the surface film.

Here's the link to the discussion on the pump: 








						Very small, quiet pump?
					

I am looking for a very small ie 3-5w water pump, to power some irrigation  I have instated in a gravel bed to grow some root immersed    plants. This is in my living space and I have already tried two small power heads but the high frequency noise is very distracting! So any suggestions or...



					www.ukaps.org


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## dw1305 (6 Jan 2022)

Hi all, 


jaypeecee said:


> I have 'cycled' tanks many times using the ammonium chloride and Tetra _SafeStart_ approach. Keeping a close watch on ammonia, nitrite and nitrate with good quality test kits is key to success. I have never had any casualties from adopting this approach.


If you aren't going to keep a planted tank then it is definitely <"a valid approach">. You are always reliant on microbial nitrification to deal with the ammonia produced by your livestock and your tank can only be "fish-safe" when levels of <"TAN" (NH3 / NH4+)> and nitrite (NO2-) remain permanently low.

I'm really interested <"in probability"> and for me the problem is that you have a number of areas of potential failure,

The "Tetra Safestart" or "One and Only" may not still be "good". 
The <"bacterial inoculum"> may not contain <"suitable microbes">, once you stop adding ammonia.  
You are reliant on the <"result of a test kit"> for decision making. 
You have a <"single point of failure"> in the filter
You don't have any <"visual clues to your fixed nitrogen level">.



jaypeecee said:


> But, I used to have no end of problems with trying to raise healthy plants - even Frogbit. If I'd waited until I felt confident in growing healthy aquatic plants, I'd only just be starting to keep fish............You should have seen some of the so-called plants in their tanks.


I think that is a valid concern as well, and that "planted tank" could encompass everything from  <"a single _Dracaena_">, in a pea graveled tank, to an <"absolute jungle">. 


MichaelJ said:


> Yes, I've seen people who would just put some filter media (and a bit of water) from an existing tank into the new filter and new tank and stock it right away without problems.
> 
> If I had to set up a new tank tomorrow I would probably do the same - and plant heavily right away.


I think we have probably all done that at some point. Because of the issue with <"emersed plant production">, and the re-establishment period, I like a floating plant, it doesn't have to adapt and has access to aerial CO2.

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee (6 Jan 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> Beats me as well why people get so riled up about this.... "cycled" or not, it's all the mistakes made afterwards that ruins the experience...


Hi @MichaelJ 

It doesn't matter to me which approach people adopt. But, I always think it's only right to advise those new to the hobby that there's more than one way to crack a nut. Provide others with the information they need but let them decide how they wish to proceed.

I love your statement "it's all the mistakes made afterwards that ruins the experience...". Excellent! 

JPC


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## jaypeecee (6 Jan 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> Yes, I've seen people who would just put some filter media (and a bit of water) from an existing tank into the new filter and new tank and stock it right away without problems.


Hi @MichaelJ 

There you have it. That is another option and it is often successful.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (6 Jan 2022)

laurenb252 said:


> ...the surface scum I described has already cleared up significantly after bringing the filter closer to the surface of the water.



Hi @laurenb252 

Good! If you can avoid the need for a surface skimmer, that is preferable - particularly in a small tank.

JPC


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## Jaseon (12 Jan 2022)

After reading through the thread, and thinking of what adjustments new plants go through in general wouldnt it be wiser to add plants after the cycle? What affect, and stresses does planting into an ammonia rich environment straight away have on them?

The filter is being set up as the primary stage for nitrification. Once thats acheived the plants can be introduce to an environment thats more optimal for them.


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## dw1305 (12 Jan 2022)

Hi all,


Jaseon said:


> what adjustments new plants go through in general wouldnt it be wiser to add plants after the cycle? What affect, and stresses does planting into an ammonia rich environment straight away have on them?


It depends on the plants a little bit, it is really back to the <"Orchids and tomatoes"> dichotomy.

High ammonia levels <"definitely damage _Anubias barteri_"> (and most other Aroids I would guess). A "Tomato", and particularly a floating one like Water Hyacinth (_Eichornia crassipes),_ would just hoover up <"as much ammonia as you could throw at it">.  The problem with high ammonia levels and submerged plants is that you will often <"get a lot of algae">.

@Cor has used the <"dark start method"> as a mechanism for cycling a tank, with an ammonia rich substrate, without developing algal problems.

If you don't have an ammonia rich substrate? Just don't add any ammonia <"and plant the tank">. After that change water and add fertilisers following your  normal regime. Once the plants are grown in <"your tank is fish-safe">.


Jaseon said:


> The filter is being set up as the primary stage for nitrification.


In a non-planted tank the filter is the <"_be all and end all_">, but that isn't really true in a planted tank.

This is because there isn't any "plant only" biofiltration <"it is always synergistic">*, <"plant / microbe biofiltration">.

cheers Darrel

*Rehman, K., Ijaz, A., Arslan, M. and Afzal, M., (2019). "Floating treatment wetlands as biological buoyant filters for wastewater reclamation"._ International journal of phytoremediation_, *21*(13), pp.1273-1289.


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