# Frogbit taken a turn



## jameson_uk (22 Oct 2019)

After going through a period of frogbit overtaking the tank it seems to have started dying off.  This started several weeks ago and is a mixture of leaves melting, getting holes and generally dying off.  I don't think anything has changed in the tank and I have doubled ferts over this period without much impact.

The only thing I have noticed is the amanos spending more time in the frogbit than before (but not sure if this is because it is in poor condition or whether they are submerging it and causing the poor condition).  I did also add some Ramshorn snails a while ago but I don't really see them on the frogbit.

Other than upping ferts even further could there be some little detail I have knocked out of kilter or perhaps could it be seasonal with there being more condensation under the hood as it is colder outside the tank?


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## dw1305 (22 Oct 2019)

Hi all,
I'm not sure which one it is, but it either iron (Fe) and/or Magnesium (Mg) deficiency. It looks like it might have been iron deficiency, but a little while ago? Mainly because the newest leaves look healthier.

cheers Darrel


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## jameson_uk (22 Oct 2019)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> I'm not sure which one it is, but it either iron (Fe) and/or Magnesium (Mg) deficiency. It looks like it might have been iron deficiency, but a little while ago? Mainly because the newest leaves look healthier.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Seems odd as I don't think much has changed (fert dosing included).   My homemade ferts http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/allinone.htm include Epsom salts and CSM+B micros.  I started off double dosing but there wasn't any noticeable improvement.   I also got some Easy Life Ferro as I thought it might be an iron deficiency  (although this seems different to before as there are more leaves disintegrating at the edges and holes in the middle) and have does this in addition to my normal ferts

I think the Easy Life Ferro is a mix of different chelates https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...67361-easylife-ferro-edta-dtpa-gluconate.html (but I suspect the Ferro is a bit of misnomer)  it however made the water cloudy which I think means that this is the iron becoming unusable?

Last time I used Seachem Flourish which I think has a mix of iron sources.

Given my water (GH12 / KH5) would it be worth trying something like https://uk.solufeed.com/products/chelates/solufeed-fe-70-eddha-regular ??


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (23 Oct 2019)

It could be condensation related also... could you leave the lid open a crack to try and reduce this and eliminate this potential cause?


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## Fisher2007 (23 Oct 2019)

How long has the frogbit been in the tank?

I had similar, with it growing amazingly well for a good few weeks after adding and thrn crashing.  I'm not expert but I think it just depletes the nutrients over time, then probably hung in there for a while before starting to fade.  As you have done, I upped the dosing a fair bit and it did come back.  Took a few weeks though


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## jameson_uk (23 Oct 2019)

Fisher2007 said:


> How long has the frogbit been in the tank?


It has been in there over three years.  For the last year or so it has been rampant and I had obviously managed to get the conditions right for it.

I do wonder whether when I cleaned the spray bars I managed to put them back in a way that is creating more surface flow / condensation or similar.


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## dw1305 (23 Oct 2019)

Hi all,





jameson_uk said:


> it however made the water cloudy which I think means that this is the iron becoming unusable?


Yes, the cloudiness is a insoluble compound forming from the reaction of two of the ions, and that is likely to be iron phosphate. 





jameson_uk said:


> Given my water (GH12 / KH5) would it be worth trying something like https://uk.solufeed.com/products/chelates/solufeed-fe-70-eddha-regular ??


I would give it a try. There is also <"Chempak Sequestered Iron"> as an option. 





Matt @ ScapeEasy said:


> It could be condensation related also





jameson_uk said:


> do wonder whether when I cleaned the spray bars I managed to put them back in a way that is creating more surface flow / condensation or similar.


It could be, but I've seen that strange net like decay on my own Frogbit leaves, and it is definitely a nutrient effect.

Have a look at @rusticdr's <"Micronutrient toxicity....">  thread, you can see exactly the same leaf damage (and the thread has <"a happy resolution">).





We don't have any scientific data for Frogbit (_Limnobium laevigatum_), but iron deficiency in Duckweed (_Lemna minor_) cause yellowing and  <"snake bite" lesions"> (image (d)), and I think it is these lesions that you can see on the Frogbit.




cheers Darrel


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## Zeus. (23 Oct 2019)

What's your water like hard/soft ? ppm!


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## Fisher2007 (23 Oct 2019)

jameson_uk said:


> It has been in there over three years.  For the last year or so it has been rampant and I had obviously managed to get the conditions right for it.
> 
> I do wonder whether when I cleaned the spray bars I managed to put them back in a way that is creating more surface flow / condensation or similar.



For what it's worth I've had frogbit in my 55 litre low tech for a year or more.  This tank has a fairly tight fitting glass lid (and always has had) but mine is now doing fine after upping the ferts

As per the post above, I think it is most likely a defiency rather than anything to do with condensation


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## dw1305 (23 Oct 2019)

Hi all, 





Zeus. said:


> What's your water like hard/soft ? ppm!


It is hard water, @jameson_uk has another <"Frogbit thread"> and some posts in, @Aeropars <"Magnesium in tap water"> thread, including a water breakdown from "South Staffs Water".

cheers Darrel


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## Zeus. (23 Oct 2019)

So pretty high pH 7.8 like my water.
@jameson_uk did you manage to get some Fe EDDHA? If not could send you some as have some Solufeed Fe 7.0 EDDHA, you don't need much. I made a litre stock solution and add about 3ml on micro day to my 500l tank.


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## rusticdr (28 Oct 2019)

jameson_uk said:


> It has been in there over three years.  For the last year or so it has been rampant and I had obviously managed to get the conditions right for it.
> 
> I do wonder whether when I cleaned the spray bars I managed to put them back in a way that is creating more surface flow / condensation or similar.


Hi.. I remember reading through ur threads when I was having issues with my frogbits and I think we did converse too.  
Anyway my frogbits looked almost like what u have shown in your pics. And it was not due to flow related issues. It was definitely nutrient based. As far as micros are concerned my belief is that they are required in very small quantities and it's very easy to go overboard with them. If u feel that u r ok with ur micro dosing levels try increasing your phosphate levels a bit. To around 5 ppm per week keeping nitrate at 20 to 30 ppm per week. For me that extra phosphate made a huge difference. Pls try it out and let me know if it works. Other stuff like moisture condensation as a cause.. nope.. because my tank is open top. And we both have similar issues. 

Tc. 

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


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## jameson_uk (3 Nov 2019)

I have been away for a week and before I left I double dosed ferts but no real improvement.  The limnophilia sessiflora however had gone mental.



The shrimp tank which has little to no ferts isn't having any such issues... 




I have taken it all out and only put back healthy(ish) looking plants and added some from the shrimp tank.

My ferts had also nearly run out so I have mixed up a new batch incase anything had stopped being effective.

What was noticeable was that is was mainly new leafs that were affected.  The plants also seemed quite dictate and stems were very thin and broke easily.   The plants also didn't have much root structure.  The plants on my lower energy tanks tend to end up with 25cm long roots.


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## tiger15 (3 Nov 2019)

My frogbit has gone through bloom and bust cycles.  It's in my shrimp bowl that receives a few hour direct sunlight from the window with no filtration or heater. Management is the same, and the only variable is temperature that ranges between 18 to 30 C in winder and summer, the same as ambient room temperature.  The bloom is in warm months and bust in winter.


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## jameson_uk (3 Dec 2019)

So thanks to @Zeus. I got hold of some FE EDDHA.

It is difficult to tell if things have improved hugely as it was getting in a bad state to start with and I have topped up with extra plants from other tanks.  It does however seem a bit better.

One thing that had me thinking though was some of the plants I added from my shrimp tank seemed to show some of these symptoms only a few days after adding to my main tank.   I took some really lush green plants (big ones with long roots) and within a matter of days several of the leaves needed removing.

The shrimp tank has a much less powerful light than the main tank and is a few degrees cooler  but if it is just a nutrient deficiency would this show up within a few days? (Particularly considering I have added almost EI levels of ferts).


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## MJQMJQ (4 Dec 2019)

jameson_uk said:


> So thanks to @Zeus. I got hold of some FE EDDHA.
> 
> It is difficult to tell if things have improved hugely as it was getting in a bad state to start with and I have topped up with extra plants from other tanks.  It does however seem a bit better.
> 
> ...


Nope.What you have should be melting as they are adjusting to the different tank conditions.Do u have different water params besides temperature?


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## jameson_uk (4 Dec 2019)

MJQMJQ said:


> Nope.What you have should be melting as they are adjusting to the different tank conditions.Do u have different water params besides temperature?


A little but not massively.  Main tank is just tap water and shrimp tank is about 30% deionised water mixed with tap water.  Some plants were taken from my Betta tank which is also just tap water and they have shown the same.

I don't recall seeing any noticeable melt when I have moved plants between tanks before.


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## MJQMJQ (5 Dec 2019)

jameson_uk said:


> A little but not massively.  Main tank is just tap water and shrimp tank is about 30% deionised water mixed with tap water.  Some plants were taken from my Betta tank which is also just tap water and they have shown the same.
> 
> I don't recall seeing any noticeable melt when I have moved plants between tanks before.


Yea you shouldnt especially if they have similar parameters.Generally switching between submerged and emersed will cause it to melt.Your ammonia reading is zero too right.


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## jameson_uk (28 Feb 2020)

So a few weeks ago I removed all the Frogbit and only put healthy plants back (along with some healthy plants from my other tanks) just to see what was going on.

I had been dosing fe EDDHA but I am not sure I have been doing it right... (https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/iron-dosing.59886/)

so attached are are some pics of how it is looking now.   The lace effect / tyre tracks seem to have largely gone (there are just a few leaves showing this) but I am still seeing some leaves not looking great but I am fairly sure the transparent looking leaves and those where the edges seem to be fading out are just leaves which have been pushed under water.   Does this look about right that most of the poor leaves here (these are the few poor plants I separated out) are just down to them being pushed under and getting wet rather than any nutrient defficiency?


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## dw1305 (28 Feb 2020)

Hi all,





jameson_uk said:


> so attached are are some pics of how it is looking now.


That looks much better. The new leaves look good.





jameson_uk said:


> Does this look about right that most of the poor leaves here (these are the few poor plants I separated out) are just down to them being pushed under and getting wet rather than any nutrient defficiency?


My guess would be that they are the leaves that were nutrient deficient, because it was a deficiency of a non-mobile nutrient (possibly iron (Fe)) the plant can't improve their condition.

I'd probably just pinch them off.

cheers Darrel


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## jameson_uk (28 Feb 2020)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,That looks much better. The new leaves look good.My guess would be that they are the leaves that were nutrient deficient, because it was a deficiency of a non-mobile nutrient (possibly iron (Fe)) the plant can't improve their condition.
> 
> I'd probably just pinch them off.


These were the worst plants but definitely looking better I have been pinching off the leaves like this (or in a few cases just chucking the plants as I have a bit too much).

The poor leaves were like the lush green ones a week or two ago and I have always noted this in my other tanks that some leaves end up getting stuck underneath others so don't get the light and end up going underwater.  Quite often these poor leaves aren't visible unless you take the plant out and turn them over.

I am going to monitor them a bit more closely over the next few weeks but hopefully things are back on track.


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## GHNelson (29 Feb 2020)

Do you have snails in this tank?
hoggie


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## jameson_uk (29 Feb 2020)

hogan53 said:


> Do you have snails in this tank?
> hoggie


Yes.  I do think they caused the holes but I think the leaf was in bad condition first.


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## GHNelson (29 Feb 2020)

Hi
I would suspect that the snails are laying eggs underneath....that could be the answer!
hoggie


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## jameson_uk (29 Feb 2020)

hogan53 said:


> Hi
> I would suspect that the snails are laying eggs underneath....that could be the answer!
> hoggie


Interesting.  Never thought of that.  The weight of the eggs would be enough to drag the leaves under.


Also now I think about it, I did some Ramshorn snails from my Betta tank in the summer (https://www.ukaps.org/forum/index.php?posts/563480) and the frogbit did start going downhill in the autumn....


The pond snails have always seemed to love the frogbit but a mix of less feeding, the ramshorns and less livestock has seen quite a reduction in their numbers.  These always seemed to be in the frogbit but never seemed to damage it.

That said I don't recall seeing any ramshorns on the frogbit and there are actually far less pond snails than before.


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## GHNelson (29 Feb 2020)

Could be the jelly-like covering of the eggs that are inhibiting normal growth...then when the eggs hatch, the snails have a good breakfast
Have a look after lights come on in the morning for eggs.
hoggie


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