# Issues with BBA! where am I going wrong??



## Planted Bows (30 Jul 2017)

Hi all, 

As title says Im having some prolonged issues with BBA. 

So I had a 30litre tank before and had it spot on without any algae at all! I then upgraded to a 60litre with the same photo period etc. 

What I have realised is it takes alot longer to get the dc in this tank to go green so I have played around with the on/off time of my co2. 

Currently co2 comes on at 4pm and lights on at 6pm then co2 off at 9pm and lights off at 10:30pm. Co2 is around 2bps.

I did have the lights on for longer but reduced it by 1 hour as I thought that could be the issue. 

The BBA has gotten worse and I seem to be fighting a loosing battle here. 

Whats the ideal combo for co2 and light together? Is there such a thing? 

Any help would be greatly appreciated  









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## colinquilliam1 (30 Jul 2017)

Put some black mollys in...they graze on it. Or you can use hydrogen peroxide on it, 3% proof. If you can only get 6%, mix it with distilled water 50/50. Medicine syringe and spray on infected area. Most chemists sell it

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## Planted Bows (30 Jul 2017)

I will have a look online now

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## Sweded (27 Oct 2017)

Black molly will not really reduce BBA. Black molly are great for surface film build-up and they are one of few fish that can consume cyano.  Siamese algae eaters actually do an amazing job eating BBA. Get 1 for every 50 litre if you have an outbreak, 2 if it's severe. 
By the look of the algae and plant health you most likely have too much light intensity (PAR) for your CO2 and slow growing plants, too much organics and your fert dosing far from optimal.


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## ceg4048 (27 Oct 2017)

Planted Bows said:


> Whats the ideal combo for co2 and light together? Is there such a thing?


Yes, there is such a thing but nobody wants to hear the answer.
The answer is low light and stable CO2, which a) is not popular because everyone wants bright lights and b) CO2 stability is very difficult to achieve.

I would advise against using fish to solve any algae problem. Fish do not know anything about algae except whether it tastes good - and it only tastes good if you do not feed them.

If you do not have plants that are sensitive to liquid carbon then it would be a good idea to daily dose the bottle recommenced or even twice the recommended. That will go a long way in kicking the BBA in the groin and it will effectively increase the CO2 uptake. After several days, if the dosing is consistent and if the concentration is high enough, you will see the BBA turn pink .

At the same time, if possible, the light intensity should be reduced.

For a permanent solution, you'll have to investigate the effectiveness of your CO2 technique as well as your flow/distribution technique.

Start by taking pH measurements at 30 minute interval from the time you turn on the gas to the time you turn on the lights. The general idea is to achieve nearly a 1 pH unit drop during this time. The DC should be a bright lime green or nearly yellow when lights come on.

You can continue to take pH readings throughout the photoperiod and the goal is that the pH should be at its lowest on or around the time that the lights go on. If you overshoot a little, this is OK, but if the lowest pH occurs far into the photoperiod (like several hours) then you have to make timing and bubble rate adjustments. This is very time consuming and that's why continuing to use the liquid carbon is essential.

You'll also need to ensure that your filter outlets as well as any supplemental pumps such as Koralia are all pointed in the same direction and are all working together and are not criss crossing.

It is unclear how you are dissolving CO2. Is it an in-line unit or is it in-tank? If it is in-tank then you should consider porting the gas to the filter inlet.

You should also perform frequent and MASSIVE water changes, like 2 or 3 50%-90% or more changes per week. Always dose nutrients and definitely liquid carbon immediately after the  water change.

Any leaves that are severely affected should be removed.

After the changes are made you can gradually reduce the liquid carbon dosage over the following weeks to see if the changes are effective.

Depending on lighting levels, you may always get some tufts on rocks or wood but it is most important to avoid getting them on the leaves.

Anubias does not really care for bright lighting so it is always going to be a challenge to keep them algae free under strong lighting.

Cheers,


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## Planted Bows (27 Oct 2017)

ceg4048 said:


> Yes, there is such a thing but nobody wants to hear the answer.
> The answer is low light and stable CO2, which a) is not popular because everyone wants bright lights and b) CO2 stability is very difficult to achieve.
> 
> I would advise against using fish to solve any algae problem. Fish do not know anything about algae except whether it tastes good - and it only tastes good if you do not feed them.
> ...


So I have so bad BBA in anubius but when I dim my light it looks unsightly so prefer to have it on full blast. I will reduce lighting to 60%  my other is I have my co2 come on 2 hours before and my DC is green when lights come on, however I worry that if my DC was lime green to yellow then surely that would cause breathing issues for the livestock right? I bang my head against a brick wall all the time trying to Dial in my co2 but struggle on this 60litre tank 

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## ceg4048 (27 Oct 2017)

Planted Bows said:


> I bang my head against a brick wall all the time trying to Dial in my co2 but struggle on this 60litre tank


Yes, I realize that. Remember, I'm not promising you a rose garden. I'm only offering you the truth.
If you perform the Excel treatment as I mentioned, that will attack the black tufts and will turn them pink.



Planted Bows said:


> So I have so bad BBA in anubius but when I dim my light it looks unsightly so prefer to have it on full blast


This is not logical. I'm certain my Vulcan friends would argue this.


 



Planted Bows said:


> I worry that if my DC was lime green to yellow then surely that would cause breathing issues for the livestock right?


Yes, this is a valid concern, and that's why you'll need to experiment with the bubble rate during a weekend or when you have the time to constantly monitor the fish. If you have a bubble counter you can make tiny adjustments to the injection rate and monitor the pH of the tank or the color of the DC while you monitor the response of the fish. This method requires patience.

Again, this is a direct consequence of having "full blast", so you either live with the algae or you take the proper measures to reduce it.
As I mentioned, the fault may be occurring as a result of the injection rate, the timing, the lighting level, the flow distribution, the injection technique, or any combination thereof, so you need to investigate all possibilities.

Cheers,


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## AverageWhiteBloke (27 Oct 2017)

ceg4048 said:


> Again, this is a direct consequence of having "full blast", so you either live with the algae or you take the proper measures to reduce it.
> As I mentioned, the fault may be occurring as a result of the injection rate, the timing, the lighting level, the flow distribution, the injection technique, or any combination thereof, so you need to investigate all possibilities.



@ceg4048 out of curiosity mate, do you ever knock co2 off and restart it again during the co2 period? Reading through your post and knowing how difficult it is to get the co2 part right I'm just wondering if that's something you ever do? The reason I ask is I've carried out the above tests mainly as a folly but I don't have algae issues and plant growth is ok. In this tank in particular the following happens...





Apologies for some misleading information but on the bottom axis 1 is 2pm 7 is actually 5pm and the rest is in 30min increments. 17 being 10pm, that's quite a significant rise at that point but I guess by then the plants have had their fill of co2 by then anyway and when my surface is gently rippling and lights on I suspect a leap up would be expected.
I also have two lights, the first one is dim for half a hour just so the fish don't startle and give the plants a chance to start going with the main light coming on at 5.30 at 50% which jumps up in time with peak co2 between 7 and 9 at 100%  Same thing at wind down lights gradually fade out at 11pm down to 50% main light out 11.30 then original start light out at 12

So I miss my target slightly but lights aren't full on by then so not so much of a worry, I hit target when all lights are at 100%. That would tell me that I should either start injection sooner or up the injection rate. The problem is there as soon as my ph hits around 6.4 to 6.5 my Blue Rams will hang at the surface gasping usually around 8pm for the last half hour of injection then quickly recover as soon as co2 is off at 8.30.

Coming back to the original question, do you ever knock off co2 so for instance upping the injection to hit target earlier but in a way that the co2 never drops below a certain point or in my case the uncomfortable zone seems to be about 6.5 for fish. Obviously once co2 is on you have no control over the bubble rate from then and if getting co2 right by lights causes it to be too low later would it make sense to maybe have the timer knock it off for say 15min just to prevent that?


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## Zeus. (27 Oct 2017)

Nice graph but 8hrs to get to optimal pH!!! that's 4hrs into the photo period, no expect myself OFC, but think maybe a higher injection rate with a higher surface agitation may be needed to attain stable [CO2]. Plus how many points in the tank are you taking the pH reading from. I move my probe all over tank to check its constistant. Obviously Clive's the 'Man' on CO2. Just joining in so I can learn too


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## ceg4048 (27 Oct 2017)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> do you ever knock off co2 so for instance upping the injection to hit target earlier but in a way that the co2 never drops below a certain point or in my case the uncomfortable zone seems to be about 6.5 for fish. Obviously once co2 is on you have no control over the bubble rate from then and if getting co2 right by lights causes it to be too low later would it make sense to maybe have the timer knock it off for say 15min just to prevent that?


Hi mate,
             I haven't done that in the past because I didn't  have a programmable timer or a pH controller to do that and it would get too complicated, although there is nothing wrong with doing that and it is a good idea.

If, as you mention, when the lights come on you do not blast the tank and just gently ramp the lighting then it does give you more margin for error.

Another way around this is to manipulate the filter output or spraybar output to get a little surface agitation. That's what I've done. Pointing the spraybar a little upwards or raising it so that it just touches the surface can work. Others have used air pumps with air stones on a timer to degas and prevent oversaturation, so there are a variety of ways but none of them perfect or foolproof.

As you noted, the goal is to have the minimum pH at the lights on and presumably, as the plants start using CO2, if the uptake rate exceeds the dissolution rate then the pH should start to rise.

I would love it if someone could invent a regulator with a programmable bubble rate!

Cheers,


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## AverageWhiteBloke (27 Oct 2017)

Zeus. said:


> Nice graph but 8hrs to get to optimal pH!!!



That's my point mate I think, If I was to up injection then at some point I'm going to hit somewhere the fish don't like, just earlier but there will still be some time left when ideally i should be injecting co2. It seems like I can't have it both ways.


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## ceg4048 (27 Oct 2017)

Yeah, you'll need to examine the injection method or distribution method. 8 hours is over the top.

Cheers,


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## AverageWhiteBloke (27 Oct 2017)

ceg4048 said:


> Hi mate,
> I haven't done that in the past because I didn't have a programmable timer or a pH controller to do that and it would get too complicated, although there is nothing wrong with doing that and it is a good idea.



Nothing too techy here Clive, mainly manual. The first light just comes on on a timer and stays on throughout, 2nd Light comes on on a timer at 50%, I manually switch the light up to 100% around 7pm then knock it of around 9pm, and then they both just knock themselves off on the timers again. Rinse and repeat  Who needs programmable paraphernalia when we have opposable thumbs.

So upping surface agitation as well as increasing injection might be the answer. Hmm interesting, I use a lilly pipe which is just above the surface and a skimmer so my surface is quite broken up for exchange but It's something i will have a look at thanks. Can't get my head around increasing both for some reason. You would have thought one would counter the other but as with most things in this hobby things often defy our logic.

My DC's two of, in the worst places I think co2 would be never are lime at lights on, two hours later yes so I sort of factor that in. I've never reached the proposed one point drop ever. My fish which are far better indicators than my ph pen just won't have that at all. In the case of the DC's that's just co2 on it's way out so I would assume going off them it could do with being a bit higher. The optimum bit is based on 30ppm at kh 3.5 but it's just a figure so I had a straight line to put on the graph and not cast in stone. My water is weird though, v, soft and alkaline out the tap around KH 1 and  7.3PH artificially raised by my water authority.  

Just thought the easy option to prevent hitting uncomfortable whilst getting on target for lights would be at some point knock it off for a short while. Due to the surface agitation it might just level out and prevent that final drop the fish don't like.

Food for thought though, as I say no co2 related issues so maybe I should use the if its not broke don't try and fix it approach.


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## Zeus. (27 Oct 2017)

I do have a programmable controller with twin CO2 injections and reactors. with pH controler. Both on about 50mins pre photo. Gets it to within 0.2 of optimal pH. Then one injection shuts down. One on constant rate then for most of photoperiod. Get a slow decrease in pH over rest of photoperiod about 0.2. I ignore the actual reading just the change as probes fluctuate so there actual reading is irrelivent IMO. Gone off using the pH controler except for initial boosting, as I think the pH controler gives different [CO2] throughout the week so it's never really constant. Just my opinion ofc, I'm the Noob.
Only been running current CO2 setup a few weeks and on holiday ATM


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## AverageWhiteBloke (27 Oct 2017)

ceg4048 said:


> Yeah, you'll need to examine the injection method or distribution method. 8 hours is over the top.



Optimum levels for me based on the numbers we use for indicators roughly coincide with the point my fish don't seem to like. Or the Rams anyway, maybe I should stop using the fish has an indicator as they may just be co2 sensitive. Being the biggest fish in there though you would have thought they would be the first to complain.


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## Zeus. (27 Oct 2017)

I got my fish up at the top also. If I feed them at that time they darted for food. Then some passed out and recovered. Just one species others was fine. So just raised the pH a bit. Fish fine and over 1.0 pH drop


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## AverageWhiteBloke (27 Oct 2017)

Planted Bows said:


> I have my co2 come on 2 hours before and my DC is green when lights come on, however I worry that if my DC was lime green to yellow then surely that would cause breathing issues for the livestock right?



Apologies to @Planted Bows for jumping all over your post but I think we are talking the same thing. Getting injection right at lights on can cause ph to keep dropping after causing problems with your livestock. However, you only suspect problems rather than see them so injecting more co2 might help. Liquid carbon will definitely help smooth out any co2 issues, blasting BBA with it also will kill it off but more importantly is keeping the tank clean. As you can tell from my post green DC's aren't always the best way of knowing this, they just give an idea if your heading in the right direction, the plants and algae have the final say. The plants you have there are slow growers and almost inevitable to get some algae, the reason you don't notice on other plants is we tend to trim the before they have chance for BBA to be visible. 

I don't really get BBA other than on hardscape which I usually blast with LC now and again and my DC's aren't lime at lights on but I do regularly clean my water and filters.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (27 Oct 2017)

Zeus. said:


> I got my fish up at the top also. If I feed them at that time they darted for food. Then some passed out and recovered. Just one species others was fine. So just raised the pH a bit. Fish fine and over 1.0 pH drop



Great we have all these ways to check if our co2 is right and none of them seem to work eh  I'll have to ask the plants and see what they say.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (27 Oct 2017)

Zeus. said:


> I got my fish up at the top also. If I feed them at that time they darted for food. Then some passed out and recovered. Just one species others was fine. So just raised the pH a bit. Fish fine and over 1.0 pH drop


Co2 is a fine line we are walking mate. I've probably wrongly used the word optimum when I shouldn't have. Different tanks need different amounts so I just used 30ppm. Nothing to say that my tank actually needs that much, the graph could actually be saying my co2  levels were fine for my setup at lights on but a bit later it was a bit too much for my fish. Lights actually come on at five so although they're not at their highest setting I presume co2 content is adequate by then. The graph also doesn't really illustrate the PH numbers either, there is not much between the numbers on the half hour tests.

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## AverageWhiteBloke (27 Oct 2017)

Sorry hit reply by mistake  Was saying my water is soft so takes little to drop ph. one thing I will investigate though that's crossed my mind is my inline diffuser seems to start slow then pick up speed through the period. I maybe give it a bleach clean tomorrow and see if the bubble rate is more consistent. Perhaps this would explain the last minute sudden drop my fish don't like. However that still doesn't get me away from the fact that the numbers we supposedly need to hit cause discomfort to my fish so how quick I get there shouldn't make a difference and in my tanks the fish take priority all day long. I would rather lower lighting if this is the case.

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## Easternlethal (27 Oct 2017)

ceg4048 said:


> Anubias does not really care for bright lighting so it is always going to be a challenge to keep them algae free under strong lighting.,



From the pic posted, it seems you don't have a lot of light demanding plants and the Anubias is healthy so I bet reducing light is the permanent solution. 

I have similar issue because I am growing anubias and buces next to Toninas which like more light because I just like the look of them together and I'm constantly battling them. 

So my regime is:
1. light under 30 par for anubias (medium levels) - or whatever minimum your plants need. 
2. keep things super clean by vacuuming crud, lots of water changes, cleaning filters, removing infected leaves (very painful to do for slow growing buces because they take ages to grow back). From the pic I think your tank needs a bit more cleaning.
3. have flow as high as your fish and plants can tolerate (crude but usually effective way to deal with flow problems)
4. co2 as high as the fish can tolerate
5. if you have high fish levels (which I do too), use fish food that is low in yeast, wheat, gluten, soya (no nutritional value) and high in protein like shrimp and vitamins like spirulina. This reduces pooping.

In my book light is actually hardest to control because co2, flow etc are easy to increase and you only need to watch the fish. 

But too much light and fast growing plants dominate, you're trimming all the time, co2 levels fluctuate and you get algae. Too little and plants get stringy and lose their colour. So I feel that with lighting one needs to know a lot more about how plants behave and grow with each other - which is the point of scaping I guess. Ha!


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## Planted Bows (27 Oct 2017)

Well since these shots this is what's changed.

I have added alot of fast growing stem plants and started to dose ei method.

My lights are now on 60% and on for 6hours a day. My co2 on 2 hours before lights on/off. I also have a power head creating alot of flow so there is no dead spots whatsoever which also causes a nice ripple for degassing. I have this on a timer so it comes on 2 hours before lights off so I can try help the situation of gassing the fish etc. I will be playing around with all of this to try get the right balance.

These pictures are about a month old 






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## AverageWhiteBloke (27 Oct 2017)

Nice one mate. If that's one of them chihros light things from what I understand they are quite bright. Turning it down and all the above you have mentioned will get things back in your favour. In my experience BBA doesn't go away on its own, chop off leaves it on just leaving new growth and spray the rest with a bit of liquid carbon and you'll get on top of it. 
I only spray it in certain areas these days on water change day but until you get on top of it so would dose daily buy on infected areas rather than just drop it in the tank. 

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## Easternlethal (27 Oct 2017)

Planted Bows said:


> Well since these shots this is what's changed.
> 
> I have added alot of fast growing stem plants and started to dose ei method.



Looks about right but just a word caution about fast growers - they usually love light and respond even better so they may flourish, take over your tank and you will be tempted to crank up the light because they respond so well, but you still have bba on the anubias. Alternatively they will get stringy, lose leaves, your anubias still have bba and you feel like a failure. So my lesson is adding more plants just introduces variables and makes it harder to fix the original problem. 

From a scaper's perspective, I would try placing the anubias at the baseline of the rock and push them to the foreground a bit and place the light colored plants with smaller brighter leaves in the background maybe with a slight elevation, then I would angle the light towards the back or move the fixture closer to the back. This will create more shade in the front, more light at the back and more depth to the tank (I learnt this originally from George Farmer). 

Good luck tho!


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## Planted Bows (27 Oct 2017)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Nice one mate. If that's one of them chihros light things from what I understand they are quite bright. Turning it down and all the above you have mentioned will get things back in your favour. In my experience BBA doesn't go away on its own, chop off leaves it on just leaving new growth and spray the rest with a bit of liquid carbon and you'll get on top of it.
> I only spray it in certain areas these days on water change day but until you get on top of it so would dose daily buy on infected areas rather than just drop it in the tank.
> 
> Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


Yeah it is bud, I has 7 settings on the dimmer so turned it down 3/4 times. I have cut the affected leaves off and since having the faster growers the BBA has been back as bad since.

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## Planted Bows (27 Oct 2017)

Just getting that balance is a nightmare lol

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## Zeus. (27 Oct 2017)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Co2 is a fine line we are walking mate. I've probably wrongly used the word optimum when I shouldn't have. Different tanks need different amounts so I just used 30ppm. Nothing to say that my tank actually needs that much, the graph could actually be saying my co2  levels were fine for my setup at lights on but a bit later it was a bit too much for my fish. Lights actually come on at five so although they're not at their highest setting I presume co2 content is adequate by then. The graph also doesn't really illustrate the PH numbers either, there is not much between the numbers on the half hour tests.
> 
> Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk



Yes have to agree about the fine line, but I'm comfortable where I am at ATM and the Algea was reducing before I went on holiday and the carpet picking up. I have got C Helferi at the surface of the water and a carpet 50cm deep in a 500l tank, so I've not made it easy for myself either. But feel I am getting there.


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## Chubbs (28 Oct 2017)

Introduce floating plants, these will shade light reduce excess nutrients and may help prevent excessive amounts of CO2 loss at the water surface, the look pretty, some even flower.

Alternatively get a Tiger Lilly (can’t spell it’s geeky name), allow to grow to the surface and it will reward you with a stunning flower. It’s fast growing, provides shade and you can control it more so than floating plants and won’t be a nightmare when you cut your carpet and need to net the off cuts out from the surface.

I have two in my tank, one I’ve hidden in the background and allowed to grow to the surface, the other is kept in the mid ground and I cut it back keeping its growth submerged, compact and bushy.

Not suggesting this will solve you’re issues, but it might help, certainly one of the more controllable fast growing alternatives to stems.


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