# PO4 dosing help advice



## andyh (20 Jul 2010)

Hey guys 

I think my tank needs more PO4 as i am getting a little GSA etc, i have good CO2 and Circulation etc.
I currently dose using ADA products bright k and step 1

I have some Easylife FOSFO PO4, which is strong and concentrated (according to the bottle)  

dosing recommends 10ml in 500l increases PO4 by 0.1ppm

I understand a good starting point is 3ppm

This seems a lot can somebody confirm that i am right?

500l tank = 10ml PO4
therefore 1ml of PO4  per 50l  gives 0.1ppm
Mt tank is 190l so 4ml would give me 0.4ppm (give or take) not sure if this is right?

so to get 3ppm i would dose 30ml, (is this right?) would it be better/beneficial to dose more? Once per week or better to introduce daily?
Is this right   Help !


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## ceg4048 (20 Jul 2010)

hey Andy, I can't believe you actually went out and bought a bottle of essentially water. I mean, you could have gotten the equivalent of 100 bottles by just getting some dry powder.   

No one can say for certain that 3ppm is needed to solve your particular issue (maybe you only need 1ppm or maybe you need 5ppm). in any case, lets say 1ml in 50L of water give 0.1ppm. But you have 4 times this volume of water, so to get 0.1ppm in 200L you need to multiply the dosage by 4. Therefore, 4ml in 200L gives the same concentration as 1ml in 50.

3ppm divided by 0.1ppm = 30. So to get 3ppm PO4 you need to multiply your 200L dosing by 30. That means 30*4ml = 120ml of Profito added to 200L of water to get 3ppm. Can you see how completely ridiculous Brand name ferts are? All you need to raise a 200L tank to 3ppm PO4 is less than 1/4 of a teaspoon of KH2PO4 3X per week. That's less than a teaspoon per week. Lets get real.

Now, fair enough, you probably have less than 200L of water so you won't need as much, probably around 100ml but that is still an atrocity. How much did you pay? Can I sell you a bridge? It's in the middle of London - great river view.

Just dose 30ml 3X per week and you'll be OK (I suppose)...

Cheers,


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## andyh (20 Jul 2010)

> hey Andy, I can't believe you actually went out and bought a bottle of essentially water. I mean, you could have gotten the equivalent of 100 bottles by just getting some dry powder.



It was from the old days before i unplugged from the matrix  



> No one can say for certain that 3ppm is needed to solve your particular issue (maybe you only need 1ppm or maybe you need 5ppm). in any case, lets say 1ml in 50L of water give 0.1ppm. But you have 4 times this volume of water, so to get 0.1ppm in 200L you need to multiply the dosage by 4. Therefore, 4ml in 200L gives the same concentration as 1ml in 50.
> 
> 3ppm divided by 0.1ppm = 30. So to get 3ppm PO4 you need to multiply your 200L dosing by 30. That means 30*4ml = 120ml of Profito added to 200L of water to get 3ppm. Can you see how completely ridiculous Brand name ferts are? All you need to raise a 200L tank to 3ppm PO4 is less than 1/4 of a teaspoon of KH2PO4 3X per week. That's less than a teaspoon per week. Lets get real.



Understood, so this stuff is basically weak as hell!



> Now, fair enough, you probably have less than 200L of water so you won't need as much, probably around 100ml but that is still an atrocity. How much did you pay? Can I sell you a bridge? It's in the middle of London - great river view.



Harsh but fair  



> Just dose 30ml 3X per week and you'll be OK (I suppose)...


Yeah right and with every bottle i get shares in Easylife  

So i know your thoughts EI is the way to go,  





> All you need to raise a 200L tank to 3ppm PO4 is less than 1/4 of a teaspoon of KH2PO4 3X per week. That's less than a teaspoon per week. Lets get real.


So i buy some KH2Po4 and a teaspoon and literally spoon into the tank as per you doses?

Or make the move from the ADA which seems to give me a shortage and move to something like Tropica TPN +?

Thanks for the help, sarcasm and clean cut message. 

Next time i get the choice, i am getting you to help me choose between the red pill and the blue pill


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## ceg4048 (21 Jul 2010)

Well, I'd rather avoid the dosing flame thrower's warfare, so I'll take the high road and assume that you haven't followed the ADA procedures correctly. It may even be possible that your CO2/flow are not as excellent as you suppose. Remember that GSA can be both CO2 and/or PO4 related. If you are using ADA Aquasoil then there should be plenty of NPK in that sediment so the next assumption would be that perhaps your PAR values are higher than desirable.

If I suggest the dry powder route therefore, it's strictly because I'm looking at it from an economics standpoint, not because I suspect flaws in the ADA scheme, because it works fine for many others.

If you're absolutely sure that your GSA is PO4, and not CO2 related, then I reckon you can start dosing the Profito and by the time your powder(s) get there the bottle will be just about empty. You know me though, I always suspect CO2, but try the increased PO4 and see what happens.

TPN+ is about as weak as Profito. I strongly suspect that the people who have success with it either increase the dosage or have high N & P in their tap, so I see no reason whatsoever _on this size tank_ to trade in your Profito for TPN+.

Don't buy a spoon, just get one from the kitchen (third drawer on the left - don't let the Mrs. see you take it  though  )

Cheers,


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## andyh (21 Jul 2010)

Firstly, Clive thanks for taking the time out to help me with this, i really appreciate it dude!  



> Well, I'd rather avoid the dosing flame thrower's warfare, so I'll take the high road and assume that you haven't followed the ADA procedures correctly. It may even be possible that your CO2/flow are not as excellent as you suppose. Remember that GSA can be both CO2 and/or PO4 related. If you are using ADA Aquasoil then there should be plenty of NPK in that sediment so the next assumption would be that perhaps your PAR values are higher than desirable.


If I suggest the dry powder route therefore, it's strictly because I'm looking at it from an economics standpoint, not because I suspect flaws in the ADA scheme, because it works fine for many others.

Now then, I beleieve that i am dosing my ADA products correctly and follow the instructions. I am currently dosing ADA Brighty K and Step 1 on a daily basis. The only thing i would suggest is that i follow the instructions to the exact amount, Maybe due to my plant volume i need more, but i dont think thats the case as this tank is still quite young (4 weeks). (this pic is from 3 weeks ago)





I have Green Brighty Special LIGHTS which i havent used in previous scapes, which i belive is mainly N & P, i think that i will start dosing that on a daily basis with the K and Step 1.




> If you're absolutely sure that your GSA is PO4, and not CO2 related, then I reckon you can start dosing the Profito and by the time your powder(s) get there the bottle will be just about empty. You know me though, I always suspect CO2, but try the increased PO4 and see what happens.



From my experience with my other tanks i think my CO2 is good based around that fact that i am maintaing a solid green drop checker using 4dk water, i have good flow. CO2 Comes on 2 hrs b4 lights on and stays on 6hrs lights on 7 hrs
Lights 96w of t5 above 190l



> TPN+ is about as weak as Profito. I strongly suspect that the people who have success with it either increase the dosage or have high N & P in their tap, so I see no reason whatsoever _on this size tank_ to trade in your Profito for TPN+.
> 
> Don't buy a spoon, just get one from the kitchen (third drawer on the left - don't let the Mrs. see you take it  though  )



I hear what you saying and have spent a long time reading your guide to EI DOSING USING DRY SALTS, which is great by the way  the only thing that i still not sure on is the fact that i can buy these salts and literally spoon them straight to my tank! or is it easier to make a monthly solution?


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## ceg4048 (21 Jul 2010)

andyh said:
			
		

> Now then, I beleieve that i am dosing my ADA products correctly and follow the instructions. I am currently dosing ADA Brighty K and Step 1 on a daily basis. The only thing i would suggest is that i follow the instructions to the exact amount, Maybe due to my plant volume i need more, but i dont think thats the case as this tank is still quite young (4 weeks). (this pic is from 3 weeks ago)
> 
> I have Green Brighty Special LIGHTS which i havent used in previous scapes, which i belive is mainly N & P, i think that i will start dosing that on a daily basis with the K and Step 1.
> 
> ...


OK, well fair enough mate. I'm just being systematic to ensure that you have at least thought about the various possibilities and not just pulled a conclusion out of thin air, know what I mean? In any case, it's really no big deal. The tank is looking pretty sweet to me   ,  and adding more PO4 will just improve your growth rate tremendously. There is no danger in that regard. 



			
				andyh said:
			
		

> the only thing that i still not sure on is the fact that i can buy these salts and literally spoon them straight to my tank! or is it easier to make a monthly solution?


Good heavens why would that be easier? In my cabinet I need space for my powder bottles and other paraphernalia. Then I'd need space for my batch bottle. Perish the thought. Talk about prime real estate. Then I'd have to pout out measured doses in a special dosing cup and then pour it into the tank? Sorry, I just can't be bothered at this time.  

Cheers,


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## andyh (21 Jul 2010)

> OK, well fair enough mate. I'm just being systematic to ensure that you have at least thought about the various possibilities and not just pulled a conclusion out of thin air, know what I mean? In any case, it's really no big deal. The tank is looking pretty sweet to me  , and adding more PO4 will just improve your growth rate tremendously. There is no danger in that regard.



I hope you dont think i was being stroppy then, i just think that i have the other bits right (probably havent!  ) I appreciate all you comments and advice. Thanks for the kind words about the tank!



> the only thing that i still not sure on is the fact that i can buy these salts and literally spoon them straight to my tank! or is it easier to make a monthly solution?
> Good heavens why would that be easier? In my cabinet I need space for my powder bottles and other paraphernalia. Then I'd need space for my batch bottle. Perish the thought. Talk about prime real estate. Then I'd have to pout out measured doses in a special dosing cup and then pour it into the tank? Sorry, I just can't be bothered at this time.



So i am detecting by the ludicrous level of sarcasm in this paragraph you just spoon it in straight from the conatiners into your tank  Wicked this sounds easier and easier. So you should of guessed whats coming next.........
"Clive can you advise me what to dose on my 45usg tank?" I have seen the calculators but dont trust myself to get it right and you may just give me the confidence to step over to the dark side and consider EI" 

FYI - I have adjusted the volume of the tank to allow for substrate and rocks etc from 50usg to 45 usg
Dont know if you need this but the tank will be lit in the next few weeks by 150w mh  So will be increasing from 1.9wpg to 3wpg.


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## ceg4048 (21 Jul 2010)

No worries at all mate. One needs to be confident that the path being traveled is the right one.  

It worth reviewing the article a few times because there is a lot of data there. Too much to swallow in one sitting.

Rule #1 is not to adjust for actual volume. If you have a 50G tank then lets just call it a 40G tank and that way we can use the 2X the values of the reference 20G. I've already doubled the numbers for you. Check this out:

Sunday â€“ 50% or more Water Change then dose [3/8 teaspoon KNO3] + [1/8 teaspoon KH2PO4] + [1 teaspoon MgSO4]
Monday â€“ 1/8 teaspoon trace
Tuesday - [3/8 teaspoon KNO3] + [1/8 teaspoon KH2PO4] + [1 teaspoon MgSO4]
Wednesday - 1/8 teaspoon trace
Thursday - [3/8 teaspoon KNO3] + [1/8 teaspoon KH2PO4] + [1 teaspoon MgSO4]
Friday â€“ Rest
Saturday - Rest

These weird fractions are the only reason that making a batch is convenient, but that's just because of the tank size. If you already have fractional teaspoons in the kitchen then so much the better.

Now, in this case I rounded down from 50G, but I could have easily rounded up and pretended that this was a 60G. It just doesn't matter because having more than what you need is not a problem. 

Here's how I do the batch. Again, I'm assuming you want to make up a one months supply. This isn't carved in stone. I can make up any batch size I want, 2 month, 6 month, whatever.

1 month = 4 Weeks
3 doses of NPK per week
Therefore there are 12 doses of NPK per month.
Multiply a single dose teaspoon value by 12 => [3/8 tsp KNO3]*12 = 4 1/2 tsp KNO3
[1/8 tsp KH2PO4]*12 = 1 1/2 tsp KH2PO4
[1 tsp MgSO4]*12 = 12 tsp MgSO4
Add these to 600ml of tap or distilled water

Now this mixture must serve 12 doses so each dose is 600ml/12 = 50ml
This makes life easier because you need only dose 50ml of this NPK solution 3 times per week. 

Don't have 600ml bottle? Whatever, use a 500ml bottle and divide that by 12 so each dose becomes 40ml instead of 50ml. This is nothing more than simple arithmetic.

Always separate the trace mix from the NPK because it has a tendency to react with the phosphate. You can dose the trace mix as a powder or if it more convenient add 8 * 1/8 tsp => 1 teaspoon to 200 ml of water and dose 25 ml two times per week.

Will these numbers look exactly the same as nutriclac or JamesC's calculator? No, but who cares? These are just reference numbers and they all work. You can be sloppy or precise and it won't matter. You don't have to count pumps or anything goofy like that. Prefer to use grams? Multiply all the fractions by 6 because the powders weigh around 6 grams per teaspoon.

Cheers,


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## andyh (22 Jul 2010)

Clive

Thanks for going into so much detail for me, i really appreciate it. I think i get it. Going to give it a few more reads and i will be there.

Better get looking on Aqua essentials for all the bits.

Thanks 

Andyh


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## CeeJay (22 Jul 2010)

Hi andyh


			
				andyh said:
			
		

> Wicked this sounds easier and easier.


It is   .
I was where you're at 14 months ago, and with Clive's help, I got my head round this EI stuff.
I've dosed both dry and solution and both work equally as well, although I've stuck with the solution as I only have do any measuring of powders once a month. It's whatever suits you really.
All I can say is, since that time I certainly haven't had any nutrient deficiencies in any of my plants.........at all.
One of the beauties of this system is, that should anything go wrong in your tank (which is highly unlikely with your meticulous maintenance regime), then you don't even have to think about the ferts, or lack of, as part of the problem. One less thing to worry about.
Funnily enough, my tank is approx 45 US gallons, and the numbers quoted are the same as what I'm using, except that I've upped the PO4 a bit and it seems to keep the GSA at bay.
If nothing else, you'll save yourself a fortune. As an example, I bought 100g of Trace when I started about 14 months ago and I've probably still got enough for another 3 months dosing on my 180l   How economical is that? The other powders are even cheaper than the Trace (although you use more by volume), but it still works out to pennies. I done the maths once, (sad I know, but I was bored and curious), and if my memory serves me right I think it worked out to less than Â£2 per month to dose my tank size (180l). Less than Â£24 a year, what a result.
So, if you take the plunge, your plants (and your wallet) will love you for it  
Good luck.


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## andyh (27 Jul 2010)

Well i took the plunge and ordered all the bits from site sponsors, Fluidsensoronline and Aquaessentials.

I will let people know of the success/failures at a later date.

Andyh


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## andyh (29 Jul 2010)

Actually started today, check my lounge tank journal for more updates as to success/failure with EI

Clive -- thanks for all your help dude!


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