# Alder Cone staining, vanished?



## Cheltster (23 Jun 2021)

Hi, in an attempt to simulate a Blackwater environment for my neons I added around 25 alder cones to my circa 70 litre tank. As expected the water turned a lovely tea colour with a matter of hours. However the staining seemed to magically fade within days, so by the end of the week it was almost back to normal. Question is, where did my lovely tannins go. Nothing was added/taken from the tank except fish food and Easycarbo. Do plants use up tannins or is some chemistry afoot?


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## dw1305 (23 Jun 2021)

Hi all, 


Cheltster said:


> Do plants use up tannins or is some chemistry afoot?


I think they photodegrade. 

cheers Darrel


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## Cheltster (23 Jun 2021)

Thanks Darrell, the tank has a Chihiros A601 on it, currently at level 2, so pretty low light. Doesn't get any direct sunlight but the room has a roof window so has ambient light. Would it photodegrade in 4 days?


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## zozo (24 Jun 2021)

They also are (Humic) substances but on a microscopic level floating around in the water column and also do go in reaction with other elements and do precipitate on surfaces and substrate, especially on surfaces with a sticky and slimy biofilm. If you have a lot of tannins in the water you'll notice that the glass will stain quicker and browner than the normal green we see in tanks we do not add a lot HS.

You can compare this with a strong coffee or tea in a white cup that leaving a brown residue on it.

Obviously, also your filter will trap parts of it, more or less depending on what's in the filter. Very dense but still porous filter material think of Active Carbon and or Zeolite will do very well with trapping it. There also will be a natural turnover through the substrate that can filter it out again.


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## Cheltster (24 Jun 2021)

Thanks zozo, filter wise I just have an internal. An Aquael, so a bit of foam and some ceramic media. Nothing like carbon or Purigen. 

I was just surprised how quickly the tea colour went and what other people's experiences were with Alder cones.


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## zozo (25 Jun 2021)

I do use them too because it's only 3 minutes walk for me to pick the cones from the trees... But never used 25 cones on 70L seems a tad much to me. I do about 1 or 2 p/25l max. And also with this, I do experience the water stain and later get clearer again. Never did time it with a stopwatch tho. I replace them when the old ones fall apart and some I leave to decay completely on their own. 

I guess the more you use the darker it gets and the sooner you'll notice the differences of color fading away again. 

I did read that people also use Teabags in their tanks to create BW environments. Seems to work pretty well. But forgot which specific type of tea is used.


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## Parablennius (25 Jun 2021)

They would be Rooibos, Red Bush, teabags. I use them myself occasionally along with Alder cones and Oak / Hawthorn leaves.


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## Wookii (25 Jun 2021)

@Cheltster I've experienced the same, my 60 litre low tech stains up quite nicely on about 2-3 alder cones and couple of capatta leaves, but the staining does disappear with 3-4 days. 25 alder cones would make it like tea though I'd guess.

I didn't know it was photodegradable though as @dw1305 mentions, so that would explain it, and is good to know. I don't know if that means the tannic acid itself degrades, or just the pigment?

I use Rooibos teabags too, and they have a similar effect and are convenient (and cheaper - at least than purchased botanicals) to keep swapping out. Like you though I'm not sure how people maintain a long term blackwater effect.  More tannins can probably be maintained by using something that contains more to start with, like mopani wood etc.

There is an excellent blackwater tank here: 5ft Blackwater Shallow Stream perhaps @doylecolmdoyle can advise how he keeps the deep blackwater effect on his tank.


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## zozo (25 Jun 2021)

Parablennius said:


> They would be Rooibos



Yup!  That was the one... Thanks for the reminder...


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## zozo (25 Jun 2021)

Wookii said:


> like mopani wood



That's what I have, about 6 Kilo's Mopani scape in a 110L tank... The water was tea-colored for about a year. But after that, it was about done leaching and now after 6 years can't say it makes black water any longer.  But for the short term <12 months it worked pretty well.


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## Wookii (25 Jun 2021)

zozo said:


> That's what I have, about 6 Kilo's Mopani scape in a 110L tank... The water was tea-colored for about a year. But after that, it was about done leaching and now after 6 years can't say it makes black water any longer.  But for the short term <12 months it worked pretty well.



Yeah, I guess everything will run out eventually - it would be good to know exactly how the blackwater/biotope guys maintain the deep colouration long term.


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## zozo (25 Jun 2021)

Wookii said:


> Yeah, I guess everything will ruin out eventually - it would be good to know exactly how the blackwater/biotope guys maintain the deep colouration long term.



An old-school trick is filtering over peat and replace it about every 6 weeks.  JBL has nice peat pellets for that... And you can reduce the advised amount by half and still have the same effect.









						JBL Tormec activ
					

Reduces carbonate hardness + pH value, prevents growth of algae, addition of natural humic subst.: active peat pellets




					www.jbl.de
				




At least I experienced Coffee in my tank with half the amount.


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## dw1305 (25 Jun 2021)

Hi all, 


Wookii said:


> it would be good to know exactly how the blackwater/biotope guys maintain the deep colouration long term.


They just keep adding <"Alder cones">, <"Oak leaves"> etc.

cheers Darrel


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## Wookii (25 Jun 2021)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> They just keep adding <"Alder cones">, <"Oak leaves"> etc.
> 
> cheers Darrel



But given the rate the tannins seem to clear, for a 60 litre blackwater tank with a high level of tint, you'd need to be  adding 10+ every 3-4 days a week at a guess? That's a little labour intensive for me 😅


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## zozo (25 Jun 2021)

You could give peat a try, it works darn well, you can also put an additional peat layer under the substrate or put peat pellets in the substrate. I once did and pulled plants out with the peat pellets attached to their roots.

Alder cones and leaves or Nutshells etc. etc. have a natural decorative effect as well. That is what peat is missing of course... But when it comes to staining there is no better one around. A few decades ago it was common practice and in every book the recommendation to have a bag of peat in the filter.


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## mort (25 Jun 2021)

I can keep a decent tint just with a few alder cones but the tank isn't very brightly lit. I wonder if some of the colouration of blackwater tanks is simply in the photography as it's hard to get an accurate image when the tank is dark but the light is bright.
If I want the tint a little darker I just put a couple of new cones in. I've not gone down the boil your botanicals and make a tea, I just let them brew in the tank. I also chuck in hazelnut shells (normally the ones nibbled by the mice which look better) and acorn cups, beech husks do a good job as well.

I "inherited" a discus tank when I was in the shop and it was setup with a peat substrate. On that tank I could do a 90% water change one day and the next you wouldn't be able to see the back of the tank, in a few days that was reduced to less than a foot. Still the discus and cardinals bred and thrived.

When we started keeping fish I remember my dad bought peat pads for under the substrate. It was the thing you supposedly needed for plant health.


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## dw1305 (25 Jun 2021)

Hi all,


Wookii said:


> But given the rate the tannins seem to clear, for a 60 litre blackwater tank with a high level of tint, you'd need to be adding 10+ every 3-4 days a week at a guess? That's a little labour intensive for me


I wonder if the hardness of the water effects the persistence of the humic and fulvic compounds? I have fairly soft water and it takes a long time for leaves etc to degrade, so I wonder if the same might apply to the tint as well?

cheers Darrel


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## mort (25 Jun 2021)

My tank has very soft water as well and tannins linger a long time.


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## Sarpijk (25 Jun 2021)

That's interesting! I add just one adler cone to my 30 litre cube to turn the water really dark! Fish almost invisible. It does fade a little after a few days but without a good waterchange it doesn't rellay go away.


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