# LIQUID CO2 WARNING by JBL



## CooKieS

Hi all,

Interesting read...I think I'll stop using this stuff in my tanks...

https://www.jbl.de/en/blog/detail/133/the-story-of-liquid-co2-fertilisation-the-reliability


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## Looneeyy

I was really undecided all the different ways of co2'ing let's call it haha, but that was a good read! Thank you


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## three-fingers

Yup, when I discovered what it Seachem Excel actually was and what it was used for, I decided it wasn't a chemical that was worth adding to my tanks.

I like my fish and inverts more than I dislike algae.


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen

What a load of alarmist poppycock!

Many of the substances we use in fishkeeping would be harmful to humans if swallowed, or harmful to livestock if overdosed.

Surely it's quite simple:

* Don't swallow it.
* Don't smear it on your skin, and if you do then wash it off.
* Don't overdose it, or if you do then you do so at your own risk.
* Keep out of reach of children (although Seachem Excel comes in a child-proof bottle).
* er...
* that's it.


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## ian_m

It's only because JBL don't produce any liquid carbon product themselves. They can't copy the Excel version as there are copyright/patent issues, so why not FUD is instead....


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## Crusader58

I very much doubt there's a copyright on Glutaraldehyde Solution - Seachem aren't the only company that produces it. According to the article, JBL don't produce or distribute a Glutaraldehyde Solution on  safety and ethical grounds. The very same grounds that UK hospitals ban the use of the substance back in 2002 *LINK* https://www.unison.org.uk/news/arti...ys-unison-after-dangerous-chemical-withdrawn/

Or were they wrestling copyright too? ...pretty sure it isn't poppycock either.


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## ian_m

Seachem Flourish Excel is not glutaraldehyde. If you compare MSDS for glutaraldehyde and Floruish Excel you will find loads of safety warnings for glutaraldehyde but none for Flourish Excel, in fact it states "This material is not hazardous".

In fact main interesting statement for Flourish Excel is "The identity and weight of proprietary, non-hazardous, main ingredients are withheld as a trade secret".


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## Crusader58

According to Seachem the active ingredient in Excel is Polycycloglutaracetal - an isomeric form of glutaraldehyde ..it's the non-hazardous ingredients that are withheld (as a trade secret)...All this aside, the argument against the production or distribution of glutaraldehyde solution by JBL has nothing to do with copyright (as you suggested), but is one of safety and ethics...the very same grounds on which Unison campaigned to get it ban from use in UK Hospitals back in 2002....if you read through the Unison article that I linked in my above post, you'll see that it was argued that there was NO safe level of exposure that determined the decision to ban it.


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## AlexH

Hey guys,

I'm not a particularly skillful aquascaper - nor am I a particularly well versed chemist - my interaction in the subject being limited to my first degree in Biomedicine a number of years ago.

But a number of observations:

1) Concentrations of Glut used in hospital solutions is significantly more concentrated than what you are getting in Excel;
2) Concentration strength of Glut significantly alter the implicatios of the chemical;
3) Different Isomers greatly alter the chemical behaviour - for example, Thalidomide exists in 2 isomeric forms - between the 50's/60's the drug was used to assist women with morning sickness, however, the wrong isomer was used in the drug which resulted in the babies being born with terrible deformities whereas the other isomer of the exact same drug - quite literally a minor change in the chemical structure - was perfectly safe and harmless.

Many people use Flourish Excel without problems arising with their livestock. Furthermore, pressurised CO2 presents its own hazard to livestock when used incorrectly. 

Follow doseage regimes and stick to the instructions and you'll be fine. If you don't wish to use it, thats also fine!

Have a good day folks.
Alex


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## ian_m

Here's what happens with 250x liquid carbon overdose....
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/pump-timer-issue-and-liquid-carbon-overdose.36942/

In the end the big green plant in the video never recovered and melted away, all other plants & fish OK. Absolutely no algae, any slight BBA turned red/clear in a day or two and was scoffed by the fish.


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## roadmaster

More interested in how plant's assimilate or transport liquid carbon product's within themselves.
If one has never used it,they might see a slight improvement in low tech,NON CO2 tank.
My own observation with Metricide 14 (minus the activator) which is similar/cheaper for larger tank's as Excel ,showed no harm to cherry shrimp as test subject's.
Dosed 300 litre with 10 to 15 ml a day for 6 week's, but me think's I wished to see more of an affect with plant's than was realized.
Still have half a jug  to use up, and then wait and see what plant's think before considering another jug.
Fishes moved into this tank were/are Swordtail's,and celeb's rainbow's along with corydoras in last two week's.
I am guilty of subjecting fishes to  the tank where product is being used but shrimp's (cherry) seemed not to mind the stuff so had to know what affect it might have on a few fish.


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## micheljq

There are some dangers involved with many methods.

How many cases of aquario gasing their fishes with injected co2?  I think that probably it did happen at least one time for many experienced aquarists who does.
Cases of blowing bottles with diy co2 yeast/sugar.

I do not say not to inject co2 though.  If co2 would become more affordable in my area, i would be back using it.

As for me after 21 months of injecting co2 i did stop and return to using Seachem Flourish Excel, and quite happy about it.  I will buy a 2 liter soon, 
Excel is an isomer of glutaraldehyde, not quite exactly glutaraldehyde, it is more stable, stays active for 24 hours, glutaraldehyde stays active 12 hours maximum.

Michel.


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## sciencefiction

I can't comment on the toxicity of glut containing products in aquatic system but fish keepers are not always honest with others and even themselves about the life quality and life span of the fish they've kept.

For example, fish exposed to ammonia and/or bad water conditions regularly do not die outright. It just causes them to be prone to disease down the line in the months following the incident(s), and just do not live as long...So the question is what effect does glut have on fish and inverts long term...


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## micheljq

Shall i test my aquarium to see if it has ammonia?  I have the API test at home and can test tonight if it satisfies someone.

If there was an ammonia spike, i could see some symptoms, fish gasping for air, very red gills..  my snails trying to exit from the tank, my shrimps behaving erratically..

My cardinalis i have them since nearly 4 years in this tank, and I did use Excel and Metracide extensively in this tank, sometimes twice the dose on long periods, will JBL call the cops and send them at my home?

Looks more like a campaign of negative this story.  Why not tell that T5HO and leds are dangerous for the human eyes and that we should not use them, another ancient story on the net.


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## sciencefiction

micheljq said:


> Shall i test my aquarium to see if it has ammonia? I have the API test at home and can test tonight if it satisfies someone.



By the way, your tank has ammonia going through the filters at any given time...

I was not implying that glut causes ammonia spikes. I was trying to say that the effect of putting glut could be long term and only people that have dosed their tanks for years, and have raised fish from fry to adults, would know the effect...What's your longest living fish since you started dosing liquid carbon? Its a rhetoric question by the way....I am not seeking answers...but people should think about things like that when they decide to use chemicals in their tanks.

Cardinals are one of the longest living tetras. They live over 10 years easily so its early to tell.(Its the same as saying your guppies lived for just over a year). but if all of us are around in a few years time.....it would be a great topic to a thread then and I am sure all of us would love to know...People just forget to share the experience and the importance of sharing it too  Good luck. As I said I don't know anything about the effect of glut long term. All I know is its a disinfectant...and I think I know as much as I want about it.... I am one of those that has chosen not to use liquid carbon..It made my shrimp stand still


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## micheljq

Glutaraldehyde and Excel decompose into harmless after 24 hours.  They cannot accumulate over time.  This is all that i can tell.

My longest living fish is 4 years with liquid carbon, the cardinalis.

Michel


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## sciencefiction

micheljq said:


> Glutaraldehyde and Excel decompose into harmless after 24 hours.  They cannot accumulate over time.  This is all that i can tell.
> 
> My longest living fish is 4 years with liquid carbon, the cardinalis.
> 
> Michel



I agree Michel...but don't you dose another dose just after the 24hrs?


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## three-fingers

micheljq said:


> Glutaraldehyde and Excel decompose into harmless after 24 hours.  They cannot accumulate over time.  This is all that i can tell.
> 
> My longest living fish is 4 years with liquid carbon, the cardinalis.
> 
> Michel


It's the effects of frequent doing that could potentially accumulate, no the actual chemical itself.  The negative effect on our fish may be so small it's negligible in the short-term, but who knows what long-term effects it could have?

As explained there is no need to answer rhetoric questions .


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## Delapool

Some plants are known to be sensitive. It's rare to hear of fish deaths on multiples of normal dose rates (managed it once). 

In a decade(?) of use I'm yet to hear of any long-term issues with  fish-keepers? 


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## roadmaster

micheljq said:


> There are some dangers involved with many methods.
> 
> How many cases of aquario gasing their fishes with injected co2?  I think that probably it did happen at least one time for many experienced aquarists who does.
> Cases of blowing bottles with diy co2 yeast/sugar.
> 
> I do not say not to inject co2 though.  If co2 would become more affordable in my area, i would be back using it.
> 
> As for me after 21 months of injecting co2 i did stop and return to using Seachem Flourish Excel, and quite happy about it.  I will buy a 2 liter soon,
> Excel is an isomer of glutaraldehyde, not quite exactly glutaraldehyde, it is more stable, stays active for 24 hours, glutaraldehyde stays active 12 hours maximum.
> 
> Michel.



Google search "Metricide verses Seachem Excel  yields much discussion on how long Excel or metricide is available for the plant's.
In any event, I am of the mind that  plant's can't use either product except for during photosynthesis. (gas included).
So if Excel or Glut is used daily at or near light's on ,then it would be useful for duration of lighting period No?
Have seen no inviting evidence that one is safer or last's longer in water but would apologize out front if such info is out there as opposed to regurgitated rhetoric.
Excel was too expensive for me to try in 300 litre tank so after some searching among planted tank hobbyist's (only evidence I could find) I settled on the Metricide at near half the cost, and twice the strength .
As mentioned my tank's are low tech NON CO2 and although I have seen some improvement overall, it was/is not anything to write home about.


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## micheljq

sorry double post, it can be deleted..


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## micheljq

Sorry roadmaster i am not able to find the original info anymore (do not remember where).  If i find it i will post it.

I am a user of Metracide and Excel as well.  I finish my last Metracide bottle and i think i will just use just Excel after that.  50 CAN$ for a 2 liter and i calculate that i am able to do 1 year at normal dose.  My tank is 240 liters (more 200 liters of water if i calculate substrate, rocks, and roots).  It is within my budget and acceptable.

Michel.


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## dan4x4

I don't like it. We all know you cant see everything thats going on in a tank.

I just wonder what damage it does to the bacteria. 

There is a thread on here that I was reading last night to say increased flow can optimise co2 uptake into the water from the air in your home. When I look how much my tank has grown without pressurised co2 and without glut in just under 4 months I'm pretty happy.


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