# Andys HC propagator step by step



## Andy Thurston

Hi all

I recently grew HC in a propagator to cut costs for a tank my friend and I were scaping.

Juwel 180 first planted tank | UK Aquatic Plant Society

I posted a few photos in the above journal and other threads.  With the amount of interest the few photos I posted generated I thought I'd write a step by step of how I did it, so here goes.

I got all the things that I needed starting with ordering 1 in vitro pot of hc cuba that cost £5 from ebay (please note that I did the propagator without taking any photos, so the hc in them is what was left over after doing the tank).  While waiting for it to arrive I acquired the other things I needed to buy, these were 1 x Sankey Growarm 100 propagator, about £18 from B&Q and bag of John Ines 3, about £4.  So for less than £30 I had everything I needed and was ready to start.






I filled both trays with John Ines 3 about 2 cm below the top of the tray, breaking up any lumps and removing any big pieces of organic material.








Next I filled the tray with water so it was about 1cm below the substrate





Now its time to prepare the hc. I washed off all the jelly with water and pulled it into small pieces ready for planting.
The second time around was different.  I took the hc and cut off the yellow bits, which included the roots, with scissors.












In the time it took to prepare the water soaked into the John Ines and it now looked like this.





I got single stems or clumps and placed them on the surface (Not planted like normal) like this








I continued placing stems/clumps until both trays were full







Next I placed the propagator on the kitchen window cill which gets direct sunlight from about mid day onwards.







I put the lid on with the vent fully closed and plugged it in.(sorry for dark pic, I forgot to take it when I started so have just done it now)
For the rest of this step by step the photos are my first attempt which I started with more hc in the propagator.

Week 1, nothing really happened.
Week 2, The first real sunshine, growth has started and its putting new roots down now.




Week 3, 3 days sunshine and 4 days rain.(British weather) Starting to grow well.




Week 3 and 4 days, 2 days sun shine and 2 dull days its really taking hold now. you can see growth daily.




All the rest of the photos are 1 week apart












2 photos this week







Week 9 or 10 Ready for planting into tank.






I grew this hc early in the summer and on the hotter days I opened the Vent fully and turned the heater off to avoid very high temperatures within the propagator.

This took no looking after apart from checking temperature and a couple of water top ups. In 10 weeks I turned 1 pot of hc into 25 pots which easily paid for its self.
If you are thinking about doing this during autumn and winter additional light will be needed.

Finally I hope you enjoyed my step by step and if you follow it I hope you get the same results I have.

Thanks for looking
Andy


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## Andy D

Nice one!

Might give this a try myself in the future.


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## sa80mark

Brilliant step by step definitely something to consider doing for next tank


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## Michael W

This looks great! I had an emersed project going on for a few weeks with Staurogyne Repens and just this morning I noticed I forgot to put the cling film back on and the whole thing has dried out. Absolutely gutted!!! It may work better if I had your setup, definitely going to give it a shot.


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## Lee Sweeting

Brilliant little step-by-step guide.


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## Ryan Thang To

Great step by step.  Just what we need in this hobby. Thanks for sharing andy.

Cheers


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## Samjpikey

Nice guide Mate  


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## sa80mark

Are you planning on trying any other plants in it ?


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## Michael W

I'm going to guess that glosso would also do fantastic in the propagator. I may make a Wabi Kusa in the near future and this method would without doubt help to transition some of those smaller plants into an emersed setup.


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## Gary Nelson

Great step by step pics of some lovely very healthy growth... I'm sure you will inspire allot of us on here to give it a go... Thanks for showing us


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## Andy Thurston

Gary Nelson said:


> Great step by step pics of some lovely very healthy growth


 



Samjpikey said:


> Nice guide Mate


 



legytt said:


> Great step by step. Just what we need in this hobby. Thanks for sharing andy.


 



Lee Sweeting said:


> Brilliant little step-by-step guide.


 



Michael W said:


> This looks great!


 



sa80mark said:


> Brilliant step by step definitely something to consider doing for next tank


 


Andy D said:


> Nice one!


 
Cheers Guys


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## Andy Thurston

Gary Nelson said:


> I'm sure you will inspire allot of us on here to give it a go... Thanks for showing us


I'm sure it will Gary I was inspired by Foxfish to do it in the first place. Then I was inspired to write step by step by all the questions from lots of people


sa80mark said:


> Are you planning on trying any other plants in it ?


Yes mark. I have an idea for multiplying a few stems of rotala rotundifolia and a couple of unknown stems I have to start with. Do I need photos of those too?. I need a half decent camera


Michael W said:


> I'm going to guess that glosso would also do fantastic in the propagator. I may make a Wabi Kusa in the near future and this method would without doubt help to transition some of those smaller plants into an emersed setup.


I think this will help many species of plants transition.
Its quite wet in there as you can see from the photos and the HC went into the tank and got flooded with no melting so I guess it will work both ways.


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## Michael W

I'm just curious would it be possible after the transition to remove the covers gradually to directly expose the plants to the air inside the house, perhaps the container won't be the propagator at this stage say removing the cling film off the bowl/tank. Since I'm in the process of planning a Wabi Kusa without the ball, instead planting the plants emersed in say cat litter or gravel. If I do get to that stage of removing the cover how big a part does the UK temperature play a part both in the summer and winter? How about how often you mist?

Sorry this may be a bit off topic?

Michael.


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## Andy Thurston

I don't know Micheal but I read somewhere earlier in the week that you can gradually mist them less and less for a wabi but I cant remember where. I suppose you could start fully sealed with cling film and leave a bigger and bigger gap but it would be an experiment. Try it and see


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## Michael W

I shall indeed, I guess I'll wait until I have a decent amount of each plant emersed then separate some to try. Then I'll know which could handle being exposed fully to the air and how often misting will help.


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## Dan walton

Good show Andy


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## Brian Murphy

Looks the biz .... great way to create more plants for scaping !


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## foxfish

Fantastic... what are you going to plant next?


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## Andy Thurston

Its 2 weeks into some more hc but Im going to try rotala rotundifolia next. Laid down flat like the hc. I had a little bit In there after id harvested the hc for the rio180 and it sprouted new growth. Ive got a couple of unknown stems that came in with some shrimp.


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## GreenGrow

Fantastic project!! Am hoping to start a similar one up but was wondering what sort of extra lighting would be required?? And with this extra lighting is it till necessary for the sunlight??

Thanks!!


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## Andy Thurston

I'm just going to use the under cabinet lights in the kitchen with daylight tubes but any light suitable for a planted tank would do


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## GreenGrow

What sort of wattage are your under the cabinet lights mate?


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## Andy Thurston

8w t5


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## liamb2324

Brilliant guide thanks for sharing. I have a heated propogator spare but with no tubs so will after buy some. Do you think lileaopsis brasiliensis and eleocharis acicularis would grow well as thats whats in my lowtech and might be quicker to get a carpet by using both ways


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## Andy Thurston

Both should do ok in a propagator


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## ghostsword

You are an inspiration.


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## Greenfinger2

Hello Big Clown, Very neat idea  I have been using old plastic egg box's .To do same thing Amazing what you can grow Big plus it keeps the cost down


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## Palm Tree

liamb2324 said:


> Brilliant guide thanks for sharing. I have a heated propogator spare but with no tubs so will after buy some. Do you think lileaopsis brasiliensis and eleocharis acicularis would grow well as thats whats in my lowtech and might be quicker to get a carpet by using both ways


 Hairgrass is the easiest plant int he world to grow emersed, just don't forget to water it or it will die off quite fast, I'll post a couple of pictures up later of this years hairgrass and hydrocotyle later.


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## james mclachlan

Hello My name is James new to this forum just want to say great job on your step by step.
I have the same setup as you and it is going well in the forth week now.
Just one question once I have grown how do I transfer to my tank

Will I have to repeat the dsm process in my tank ..


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## Michael W

You can just place it in your chosen place giving the area good circulation and CO2 to aid its transition in the submerged environment.

Or you can do a DSM to ensure to plant will root nicely in your substrate and perhaps let it spread along even more if you didn't get enough hc when you were growing it emersed, then fill and do the above. 

Michael.


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## Andy Thurston

I repeated dsm in tank and as michael says good flow and co2 for the transition
Juwel 180 first planted tank | Page 2 | UK Aquatic Plant Society


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## james mclachlan

Hey 
I have to same setup as you but have troubles growing it 
Maybe it just Sydney weather


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## Andy Thurston

Trouble growing it in the tank or in the propagator? I was a bit worried on the hotter days during the english summer. What sort of tank/propagator temperature do you have?


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## james mclachlan

I have the same proportion unit as you 
And the tank I have it 30cm cubed with aqua up z series 

In the tank after two weeks started to die off and go brown 
I still have some in propergator but very slow growth 

Any tips or just be patient


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## Andy Thurston

My hc grew like a weed in the propagator. It slows down a lot when you put it into a tank full of water and needs as much co2 as you can get into the tank, we were dropping ph by 1.5 from adding co2 ,which is far too much if theres fish. You also need plenty of flow to get the co2 and nutrients to your carpet. Patients is needed too
Are you adding nutrients to the tank ?


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## james mclachlan

Oh really not sure why mine is taking so long 
Maybe just have  to be patient ot the only other thing I can think of is subtrate 
Or maybe have to give up on dsm way and try flooding the tank and see what happens


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## plantbrain

FYI, HC will grow well out side in a pot just like a typical plant.
The only issue is if it gets below freezing, then you need to take it back inside.
Water it daily if the temps are above 15C. Partial sun works well.

I grow it here in CA, USA where the humidity is often well under 20% during the day all summer long.


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## james mclachlan

Thank you all 

Big clown what nutrients should I use


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## Andy Thurston

I'm dosing EI into the tank with hc in it. Ei kits can be bought from the sponsors


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## 1colin

Fantastic step by step it answered alot ?


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## sean178

Nice read. Many thanks for taking the time

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## harryH

I have 3 propagators and time on my hands. Looks like I'm going to be busy. Great write up Andy


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## Andy Thurston

The great thing about the propagator is it needs next to no looking after. I spent more time looking for new growth than looking after it.


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## Gilles

Andy; what temp is the water at inside the propagator, can you measure it?


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## Andy Thurston

Gilles said:


> Andy; what temp is the water at inside the propagator, can you measure it?


I can only tell you that the heater in the propagator raises temp by a few degrees. i only checked temp with my hand and its empty at the moment. apart than a few of strands of hc, i haven't cleaned out yet growing very very slowly, which im pretty tempted to leave till spring just to see if it survives all year with just natural sunlight


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## foxfish

Heat matts tend to maintain  the substrate  to around 22c but some of my tanks can go much higher, maybe 30 + if they are in the sun.


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## Gilles

I just bought this one the other day;





WIthout the dimmer (on the left) but with the temp/timer box; This has a temperature meter attached to it. This one is sticked deep in the substrate; which now measures 28 degrees (no plants yet); water is much higher; 35 degrees maybe? I have now put it to 23 degrees and let it rest overnight to see what temp the substrate will be. Then i will plant some Micranthemum 'Monte Carlo' 1-2-grow and see what it does.


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## Jaap

Can you use a non-heated propagator? Since it will be indoors the temperature will be around 16-24 and during the day there will be direct sunlight.


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## Andy Thurston

plantbrain said:


> FYI, HC will grow well out side in a pot just like a typical plant.
> The only issue is if it gets below freezing, then you need to take it back inside.
> Water it daily if the temps are above 15C. Partial sun works well.
> 
> I grow it here in CA, USA where the humidity is often well under 20% during the day all summer long.



Aparently so


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## I MACDONALD

Here's my attempt at a growing on propagator. I set it up yesterday. I've decided to go with a mixture of Fluval shrimp stratum and some left over Limpopo and I've put in a little CO2 homebrew kit.


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## Jaap

Hello,

The first 10 days my Hemianthous Cuba was doing great but now it is turning yellow and dying off:





It is the same concept as Andy's propagator but without the undersoil heating. Substrate is potting soil, the propagator is by a window and it gets good direct sunlight. I'm in Cyprus so you can imagine the sunlight is plenty.

Any suggestions?


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## Four50

Brilliant, thanks so much for the step by step and hoping to start my own when my 1-2-Grow pots arrive


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## ourmanflint

Great idea! I'm going to buy some plants today to try this. Have 4 weeks before I set tank up so hopefully will have a harvest around then

cheers


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## Nathaniel Whiteside

ourmanflint said:


> Great idea! I'm going to buy some plants today to try this. Have 4 weeks before I set tank up so hopefully will have a harvest around then
> 
> cheers



You'll need additional light at this time of year for sure.


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## Andy Thurston

You might need a bit longer than 4weeks too.


I keep reading about this failing for unknown reasons but then i also read about people growing it outside in pots successfully.
Has anybody tried this and got bucket loads of hc? What lights and substrate was used? Heated or not?


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## ourmanflint

Ive got a double size propagator thats thermostatically controlled at a stable 20C and a 45w 6500k growlight suspended above the propagator, so hopefully that should help things along. 
Does that sound ok?


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## Nathaniel Whiteside

ourmanflint said:


> Ive got a double size propagator thats thermostatically controlled at a stable 20C and a 45w 6500k growlight suspended above the propagator, so hopefully that should help things along.
> Does that sound ok?



Sounds ideal. 
I'll send you some seeds to grow too? Ill collect them when they need harvesting.


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## I MACDONALD




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## I MACDONALD

I'm doubling my Marsilea crenata and Bacopa australis every week and I've harvested twice already. The substrate is a little Fluval shrimp stratum and a little limpopo sand with just enough water to cover the substrate and stop the plants drying out. I add a few drops of EI salts every few days. I have 8 LED modules and I'm adding a bit of CO2 from a home brew setup. I'm going to do another but I'm going to use agar enriched with ei salts and Easycarbo as the growing medium.


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## I MACDONALD

This is today after removing a couple of bits for a friend. The Echinodorus tennellus isn't doing as well as the other two but I've already harvested it twice and this is just the bits that were too small to plant.


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## Nathaniel Whiteside

Very nice. Can you supply a few more pics? Where did you purchase prop + equipment from? 
I can't find a decent one with a light built in..


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## ourmanflint

i was hoping to get some Marsilea going as well, but wasn't sure if that would work, glad to see it does. Bought some Pogostemon helferi today to give that a go as well

Cheers


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## I MACDONALD

Nathaniel Whiteside said:


> Very nice. Can you supply a few more pics? Where did you purchase prop + equipment from?
> I can't find a decent one with a light built in..


 

The equipment is an old heated propagator (You can pick them up on ebay for about £20) The lights are also available on ebay but they usually come from Hong Kong/China) The Co2 is supplied by a Robinsons special R bottle with a hole drilled in the lid and an airline fed in. If you wanted to get one with built in lights search for Hydroponics propagator. They're not cheap though. This cost about £30 all in and costs virtually nothing to run. I've not tried any taller plants for obvious reasons but it should be OK for anything up to about 8 inches. What photos would you like?


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## Richardbunting

Big clown said:


> I'm sure it will Gary I was inspired by Foxfish to do it in the first place. Then I was inspired to write step by step by all the questions from lots of people
> 
> Yes mark. I have an idea for multiplying a few stems of rotala rotundifolia and a couple of unknown stems I have to start with. Do I need photos of those too?. I need a half decent camera
> 
> I think this will help many species of plants transition.
> Its quite wet in there as you can see from the photos and the HC went into the tank and got flooded with no melting so I guess it will work both ways.



Did you have any luck with the rotala rotundifolia?


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## Andy Thurston

There were a few stems in there for a few weeks that grew fairly well. They were just laid flat on the substrate and they grew new shoots and roots from every leaf node but i didnt leave it long enough to harvest, i'm pretty sure it will work well. I've seen photos where a member grew it in a diy poly tunnel in the garden and there was loads of it, i'm not sure which thread it was and i think it was member "supercoley"
Most of the plants we use spend a lot of time out of the water but there are 1 or 2 true aquatic plants that are submerged all the time, vallis is one of these and will not grow emersed


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## Richardbunting

Excellent.

From my basic understanding, the plants available to the aquarium trade are mainly bog plants. Most aquarium plants belong on flood plains, hence the ability to survive submersed or emersed. So i totally understand why the propogator works.

I'm also fascinated about growing house plants emersed and the visual benefit they'll give. Your thread has inspired me to try a few things that i wouldn't have tried otherwise.

Cheers


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## Andy Thurston

Thats what this hobby is about, a little bit of experimenting, seeing what works or doesnt, enjoy. Have a took at this thread lots of different things growing emersed there
Starting point Wabi-Kusa | UK Aquatic Plant Society
And good luck


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## Richardbunting

Thank you


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## Thom_Hardy

So, I've read this thread and want to give it a go! Some questions for you! I have a south facing window in my loft conversion which is reasonably hot and gets sun all day Kong, would I need a heated propagator or could I get away without? If not would an old reptile heat mat work?! 

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## Andy Thurston

With or without heat should work ok and the reptile mat will be fine


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## Thom_Hardy

Thanks buddy!

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## Thom_Hardy

Actually, one more Q! What is the purpose of the heat? GI increase humidity or does keeping the plants warm aid growth? 

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## Andy Thurston

I'm not sure but some of the plants in my dry start in the cube didnt do too well and things seem to grow a bit quicker when warm in a post earlier in this the thread plantbrain says it can be grown in a pot outside


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## foxfish

If you keep the container warmer than the surround outside air, you will raise the containers inside humidity & high humidity is what most aquatic plants want!
so a heat mat will achieve this, if you place the container in a south window then the sun will heat the inside of the container & cause humidity but the sun could also fry your plants.


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## Thom_Hardy

foxfish said:


> If you keep the container warmer than the surround outside air, you will raise the containers inside humidity & high humidity is what most aquatic plants want!
> so a heat mat will achieve this, if you place the container in a south window then the sun will heat the inside of the container & cause humidity but the sun could also fry your plants.


 

thanks FoxFish! im going to give this a go with Marsilea crenata this week, i have an old retile heat mat, and a little 50 wt heater, i was thinking i could bury the heater in the soil?!?!

 will let you know how it goes!


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## foxfish

Don't bury you heater mate! it will need water circulation around it or it will just crack!!
Use your heat mat, a tried a tested method used by many.


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## angelvelez

Hi guys. I was thinking of doing this steps to grow some HC here in Puerto Rico!!! My firts attempt too!! I was going to ask you...you did not need any co2 when growing the HC? 

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## foxfish

Yes of course you need C02 but luckily it is available at maximum levels in the atmosphere 
So you don't need to try and add more.


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## angelvelez

Ok thank you!! 

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## angelvelez

I have a question Andy...if I have regular soil, can I mix it with akadama or at least put some akadama substrate on top? Akadama is a substrate for planted tanks but its like gravel size

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## Andy Thurston

You can use whatever substrate you like but you'll need to add nutrients if the soil doesn't have any of its own


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## angelvelez

Ok then thats what I'll do

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## Andy Thurston

Round 3



 
Amania bonsai(left) 
Rotala rotundifolia(right)
Lets see what happens


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## Chris25

anything happening with this? did it work?


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## Andy Thurston

Chris25 said:


> anything happening with this? did it work?


Its working
2 weeks and 1 day
Theres about 30-40 new stems in each tray


 
Rotala rotundfolia


 
Amania sp. bonsai


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## Chris25

looks like I'm going to have to get a propagator...

This looks like a real money saver!


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## parotet

Very clever to leave the stems lying on the ground... This way each cutting can produce several plants.
I will definitely use this technique!

Jordi


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## Vinkenoog1977

This method works wonderfully, with most any plant; I've done this method succesfully with all Micranthemum species, Eleocharis species, Pogostemon, et cetera. The only failure I've had so far, is the E. Tenellus; that's starting to brown up and dry out. But Andy's method is the bees' knees!


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## Andy Thurston

Chris25 said:


> looks like I'm going to have to get a propagator...
> 
> This looks like a real money saver!


Do it, you'll be glad you did 
It wasn't expensive i think it cost around £30 for the propagator, dirt, and 1 in vitro pot of hc to get me started and with what i saved not buying pots of hc it paid for itself twice over


parotet said:


> Very clever to leave the stems lying on the ground... This way each cutting can produce several plants.
> I will definitely use this technique!
> 
> Jordi



Not really clever, i'm just lazy and then i discovered the stems sprout a new shoot from nearly every leaf node, sometimes 2



Vinkenoog1977 said:


> This method works wonderfully, with most any plant; I've done this method succesfully with all Micranthemum species, Eleocharis species, Pogostemon, et cetera. The only failure I've had so far, is the E. Tenellus; that's starting to brown up and dry out. But Andy's method is the bees' knees!


Not really my method but IMO it works very well. I'd seen it done a few times by members and thought "i'll have a bit of that" I posted a few pics of my first batch on the forum and my inbox filled with questions about how i did it, so i did it again, took some pics, then wrote the step by step
It has failed a few times for other people who've tried but most weren't done in a propagator 
Foxfish has had good results with tanks in the garden and tanks inside on heatmats


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## Vinkenoog1977

Well, your post brought this to my attention, so... Brilliant read, and results!

TBH, I don't use an actual propagator at all, just those little plastic greenhouse things that only cost a couple of Euros, and I've put them in my window sill, facing SE, so pretty much sun all day. I was just checking, and the Micranthemum is going mental, I need a new tank to plant it all!  Only two small places where it turned brown and dried out, but that's all, the rest is doing better than I was ever able to achieve submersed. Which is kind of depressing when you think about it.


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## Andy Thurston

It is a bit but on the other hand. A propagator full of plants you struggle to grow immersed means you can practice over and over without it costing   a fortune


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## Vinkenoog1977

Amen to that! I've recently planted to little pots of E. Acicularis, and now I've got two tubs of 20 x 15 growing like mad, in anticipation of a coming project and new tank. Will save me around 45 Euros on Hairgrass alone!


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## Andy Thurston

Hair grass goes nuts emersed i've got DHG growing in my cube
Monte carlo didn't do that well though i just thought it needed a heat mat


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## Vinkenoog1977

I have MC growing as well... I have got two of the same sizes trays from 12 plantlets total... It took about 8 weeks, maybe 10? Same story; no external heater or nothing, just daylight/ sunlight...


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## Andy Thurston

The cube dsm had 24w t5 lights and zero natural light perhaps there wasn't enough light for it to grow like crazy. It didn't melt until 4 weeks so i flooded the tank then it started to grow. There was 2cm layer of sand where the MC was planted so maybe nutrients were a problem in my dsm
too.


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## Vinkenoog1977

Ow, you did a DSM with the MC? I did that with Indiscipline (link below), with a lot less light than that, and had some melt after flooding, several times in the same place, which was actually the spot with the MOST light of the entire cube! Only after flooding, did it start to spread back into that spot, go figure. I did add some extra heat with a regular aquarium heater on full, placed in a cut up plastic drinks bottle, to raise humidity mostly, and I added some extra CO2 via a DIY bottle. Had some pretty decent growth in the 4 weeks in think it was that it was in DSM, and I only flooded because my Javaferns were starting to look very sad.

The soil I'm now using in the incubators, would be the equivalent of John Innes No. 1, for cuttings and seeds, and I will be using that in the next tank I'm planning, simply because of the amazing results I've had in the incubators; it's so packed full of nutrients. Am/ Was a bit worried about it in an aquarium situation, leaching certain chemicals, but as far as I've been able to Google, there's no chance of any pollution that could be detrimental to fish, plants or inverts. Great stuff.


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## Andy Thurston

I like to dsm the carpet plants and then plant the rest when i'm about to flood it. I think some plants need spraying too much for it to be practical for me.
I don't think i'll have a problem with livestock the cube has been flooded for ages thanks to a few problems along the way


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## Vinkenoog1977

Same here, seems to work best for carpet plants, so if I have the chance, I'll go that route. Next up is a rescape of Piepowder, and will be using the E. Acicularis from the incubator as a carpet, hope it will adjust well to submersed, time will tell. Will give it a very, euhm, Navy SEAL haircut prior to planting.


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## Ryan Thang To

Looking good andy. When I tried it didn’t work for me so now I see it can be done. Let me know when it time to trim them


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## foxfish

I have one that has gone mad in the last week...


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## Andy Thurston

Looking good foxfish. has that got a heat mat under it?
Do you think that the temperature inside the tank needs to be warmer to get better results? The experts tell me that they grow some plants outside in a pot but whenever i grow emersed without a lid or heat mat i have bad results. The only good result i did have was when i wasnt trying and threw a melting alternanthera stem into a bucket full of tab ends full of rainwater but the first frost killed that


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## Andy Thurston

Rotala rotundfolia(left) amania bonsai(right)


 
R. R.



 
A. B.
Seems to be doing nicely


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## Ryan Thang To

Looking good andy.


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## foxfish

Andy, there is always someone who can do something you can't! I have read a few post about guys growing our plants out in the garden, in pots with nothing to keep humidity  up! 
Personly I can't imagine how this works, but it seems possible for some!
I have always found the strongest and fastest growth comes when I use a heat mat, natural sun light and high humidity.
However you definitely don't need a heat mat in the summer just a sealed container placed  outside in a west facing position.
In fact the container should have a small vent hole when the weather is really sunny but then you need to water every day or so.


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## Andy Thurston

R. R. Growing very quickly looks a bit weedy though


 
A. B. not growing as quick as the R. R. seems to be healthier though


 
Wont be long now Ryan another week or so I'm going to trim a few of the longer stems and fill in the gaps in the tray


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## Ryan Thang To

Big clown said:


> R. R. Growing very quickly looks a bit weedy though
> 
> 
> 
> A. B. not growing as quick as the R. R. seems to be healthier though
> 
> 
> 
> Wont be long now Ryan another week or so I'm going to trim a few of the longer stems and fill in the gaps in the tray


Wow! Look how much they grown. Got me plant from dan yesterday. Big thanks


----------



## Andy Thurston

Its insane  they both seem to have doubled in length in 1week.
 did dan send you all the trimmings from the 180 there was a lot of it?


----------



## Ryan Thang To

Yeah there was loads but a lot of it was damage by the delivery man I guess. I did mange to fill the corner of the tank. Shrimp are all over it hope they don't munch on it


----------



## Andy Thurston

Amania bonsa trimmed and the gaps filled


 
Rotala rotundfolia looking very weedy and heading for the bin


----------



## tam

Try putting aluminium foil behind the propagator (sometimes easier to cover a bit of cardboard that you can prop up). That's what I do with young seedling of normal plants to stop them getting weedy/leggy on the window sill. It stops them reaching for the light/leaning over and they stay more stocky.


----------



## Andy Thurston

I'll give that a try 
cheers


----------



## EnderUK

going to give this a try with some Lindernia rotundifolia, what remains of my marsilea and hair grass.


----------



## Andy Thurston

A better pic of the amania bonsai
Wont be long now Ryan


----------



## Ryan Thang To

Big clown said:


> A better pic of the amania bonsai
> Wont be long now Ryan


wow that look amazing. I got a propagator going right now and soon will have some plants for you


----------



## ADA

Great thread, some great little set ups, I'm thinking of giving it a go after a bit of recent wabi success.


----------



## Greenfinger2

Hi Big Clown, I agree with ADA Great thread  I do the same sort of thing in a plastic box with a 6500k 25w bulb over the top Great way to grow on plants One plant i want to try next is U-G


----------



## EnderUK

hijack 












grass is going very slow.










marsilea sent out new leaves quickly but really hasn't spread.









sweet sweet baby tears.

Not bad after about 3 weeks of growth. I've trimmed them back and replanted, lets see how much I have after another month.

sorry Andy, I'll un-hijack.


----------



## Jaap

What would you say is the temperature range that plants will survive?

5 degrees Celsius to 35 degrees Celsius?


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## parotet

Jaap said:


> What would you say is the temperature range that plants will survive?
> 
> 5 degrees Celsius to 35 degrees Celsius?


I cannot tell about the lower range but for sure they can survive at 37 degrees Celsius and more without any problem (that is what we have been suffering these last days...) but I increased misting quite a lot.

Jordi


----------



## tam

Presumably it depends on the plant, hairgrass, for example is a UK native so I'd presume it can cope with below freezing.


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## Jaap

Can I use an old tank as a propagator? A few cm of water in an old tank with containers to accommodate the plants and then cover with clean film.

I did this before but the plants melted the next day, however, I believe this was due to exposure to direct strong sunlight for an hour or so....could that have been the reason for the plants melting?


----------



## foxfish

Yes you can, a piece of glass works better than cling film as you get much more condensation dripping down & you can vent the tank if necessary.
Plants straight out of a water filled tank wont always take, plants that have been grown out of water don't have to adapt & are generally fine.
Just keep the soil wet, don't have sitting water.


----------



## james mclachlan

Hi 
Hey Andy just wondering  when you have grown  it in the propagator how do you transfer to aquarium or nano cube


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## Andy Thurston

Both did fairly well no melting with either species that i've tried
Just plant them like any other plant you buy


----------



## ricky smith

got to give it a go lovely


----------



## RossMartin

Hi All,

I assume it is ok to use a desk lamp to provide the light to a propergator? I can put mine on a window ledge, however it doesn't get too much light?

Thanks in advance

Ross


----------



## foxfish

Yes, but - you can use a lot of light without problems, the best growth for me is during the summer when there is often 18 hours of natural light.
The only time I have had issues was during the winter using a weak LED deck lamp, quite a bit of mould appeared but when I switched to a much more powerful light, the fungus disappeared & the plants shot up.
I have a small set up on my south facing window sill at the moment with a 9w LED, things are growing but slowly....


----------



## parotet

foxfish said:


> Yes, but - you can use a lot of light without problems, the best growth for me is during the summer when there is often 18 hours of natural light.
> The only time I have had issues was during the winter using a weak LED deck lamp, quite a bit of mould appeared but when I switched to a much more powerful light, the fungus disappeared & the plants shot up.
> I have a small set up on my south facing window sill at the moment with a 9w LED, things are growing but slowly....


I agree with Foxfish, nothing like the summer for my propagator that is in the terrace the whole year. Now in winter when I want to grow something in particular I just use my imagination...










No need to spend more energy, there's plenty of light diffused out of your tank 

Jordi


----------



## RossMartin

Thanks guys!

I've got a desk lamp with a 50w GU10 bulb that i will use. I'm trying to get some plant cultivated for a dry start tank i want to start in Feb. Unfortunately she who must be obeyed wouldn't like your idea Jordi, however it is a great idea!

Cheers

Ross


----------



## foxfish

A 50 w halogen will produce loads of light  but also heat! so be carful not to put to close to any plastic.


----------



## RossMartin

Yeah i did think that, i might get a less powerful bulb just in case!


----------



## Trebor127

What bulb and fixture would you recommend? Was thinking http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B004J4GMD2/ref=pd_aw_sim_light_4?refRID=1WKNPA9F9CYKHG24X2YB and  http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B00...k+lamp+e27&dpPl=1&dpID=51DwG6dhu3L&ref=plSrch


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## EnderUK

I stick mine on my window sill, free light, though growth over winter has been slow as it's not heated.


----------



## Greenfinger2

Hi Andy, Another great journal 
How are things going ?


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## Andy Thurston

the amania bonsai flowered and died unfortunately but just in time to have a go with some rotala wallichi
not really a journal. I just wanted to inspire and show people what can be done. with a little experimenting with different species.
have you found the show us your propagator thread yet its kind of a follow on from this one


----------



## Greenfinger2

Big clown said:


> the amania bonsai flowered and died unfortunately but just in time to have a go with some rotala wallichi
> not really a journal. I just wanted to inspire and show people what can be done. with a little experimenting with different species.
> have you found the show us your propagator thread yet its kind of a follow on from this one




Hi Andy, Still playing catch up. Post a link please. This is inspiring me to do more


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## Andy Thurston

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/show-us-your-propagator.33679/


----------



## Greenfinger2

Thank you


----------



## GotCrabs

Great growth, just shows how easy it can be doesn't it, I have two small take away containers sitting outside filled with HC, it was more of a 'Can I' project, but it's going well so once it's at a stage I like, I'll end up using it elsewhere.


----------



## GHNelson

Big clown said:


> the amania bonsai flowered and died unfortunately but just in time to have a go with some rotala wallichi
> not really a journal. I just wanted to inspire and show people what can be done. with a little experimenting with different species.
> have you found the show us your propagator thread yet its kind of a follow on from this one


Mine are still going Andy!
On the window sill in  20cm glass Do Aqua! cube....which has a perspex lid!
No artificial light! The Monte Carlo looks a tad ropey shall remove that next week or cut it right back!
Cheers 
hoggie


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## Andy Thurston

hogan53 said:


> Mine are still going Andy!
> On the window sill in  20cm glass Do Aqua! cube....which has a perspex lid!
> No artificial light! The Monte Carlo looks a tad ropey shall remove that next week or cut it right back!
> Cheers
> hoggie


Mine bounced back I thought that it had died but I topped the water up and it grew back. I've moved 180 miles south and only see it at the weekend when I go back up north to see the kids. I'm waiting for the spring and I'm going to resurrect it with plants that we cant sell at work


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## novuhoa326

what are you going to plant next?


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## novuhoa326

great way to create more plants for scaping !


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## Andy Thurston

Not sure yet, whatever I have lying around when I move my propagator down here in the new year


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## GHNelson

Rotala sp bonzai!
Produced flowers a few weeks ago!
Cuttings came from Andy


hogan53 said:


> Mine are still going Andy!
> On the window sill in  20cm glass Do Aqua! cube....which has a perspex lid!


----------



## Andy Thurston

got any spare hoggie? We've just started a couple of tanks at work and the in vitro pot we got has melted


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## GHNelson

Hi Andy
Give it a couple of weeks. ..as I have transferred them to John Innes no 3.
To see if they are okay over winter time!
Do l have your address?
Cheers hoggie


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## Andy Thurston

A couple of weeks is cool. I'll drop my new address on one of our pm's


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## Graham Bell

Bump, hows it going?


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## Costa

I found the guide very useful thanks a lot Andy. I'm completely new to emmersed growing.

2 questions:

1- How often do you change the water? Or do you just top off when needed?
2- How do your plants behave when immersed into the aquarium? How do you counter for the shock?


----------



## kadoxu

You made me buy a propagator...


----------



## Courtneybst

Nice! I might try this with some Monte Carlo I've got


----------



## Andy Thurston

Costa said:


> I found the guide very useful thanks a lot Andy. I'm completely new to emmersed growing.
> 
> 2 questions:
> 
> 1- How often do you change the water? Or do you just top off when needed?
> 2- How do your plants behave when immersed into the aquarium? How do you counter for the shock?



Hi
 I just topped up the water as and when i needed to.
the plants were fine when they were put in the tank because they had plenty flow, co2 and nutrients. This is the hard bit, I guess we were lucky we got it right first go.


----------



## Carpman

Its you fault Andy, I wondered what to do with left over / excess plants and you gave me this. I have now purchsed a sankey 300 proagator (nearly same price as yours) and a Chihiros 60cm light as its now winter.


----------



## Carpman

Its you fault Andy, I wondered what to do with left over / excess plants and you gave me this. I have now purchsed a sankey 300 proagator (nearly same price as yours) and a Chihiros 60cm light as its now winter on so.


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## Costa

Well, how do plants grown emersed behave when immersed? What is the survival rate I'm CO2 vs no CO2 tanks?
Thank you


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## kadoxu

Most of them will melt and then come back. Just like when you buy most plants, as most of them are farmed emersed.

If you boost CO2 in the tank though, they may not melt or adapt without melting too much.


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## Andy Thurston

Depends on the plant too, health etc. I think that plants removed from the propagator can have a better chance of survival because they haven't had the trauma of transit.  I also agree with kadoxu boost the co2 for best results. If you have no livestock you can add as much co2 as you like to aid the transition from emersed but remember to wean the plants to lower co2 levels before you add critters.

I wouldn't bother adding extra fertz, the hc was in there for 12 weeks without problems


----------



## Costa

Thank you guys. Are you suggesting that Tropica etc grow their plants emersed? In all the LFSs I've been I see the plants inside display tanks w/o signs of melting.


----------



## Konsa

Hi
The plants in lfs are in tanks because most lfs dont have any other way to keep them.They show no sign of melting because they have been there short term and the plant reserves are compensating.The melt is not an instant process .There is possibility that yor lfs has decent plant keeping tank but unfortunately that is quite rare.
Regards Konsa


----------



## Edvet

Costa said:


> Tropica etc grow their plants emersed


----------



## Costa

Holy crap I had no idea! So all they do is pot some starter plants and they just grow emersed, under the sun?!


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,





Costa said:


> Are you suggesting that Tropica etc grow their plants emersed?


Like "@Edvet" says all the European companies do. 

There is some <"comment here"> and a video;



cheers Darrel


----------



## Edvet

Hence some plants, which can only grow submerged, are not readily available, and can only been gotten from other plant enthousiasts.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Edvet said:


> Hence some plants, which can only grow submerged, are not readily available, and can only been gotten from other plant enthousiasts.


That is my real issue.

I understand the commercial realities of plant production, but I think there is a real problem with trying to convince people that plants are the answer to their water quality problems when they buy an <"aquatic plant"> that isn't aquatic at all, or one that has to adapt from have been <"grown emersed"> in, at least, 400 ppm CO2 to the ~2ppm of CO2 in tank water.

I understand that the aquatics industry (and all other industries) have a commercial imperative to sell ion-exchange resins, new wonder substrates etc., and telling people that floating plants (that you only ever have to buy once) are the answer to water quality isn't a great move commercially.

I also think this is why Diana Walstad had to publish the wonderful <"_The Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_"> privately, it wasn't that it wasn't worth publishing, it was more an effort to "_shoot the messenger_" so the good news didn't get out.

I'm  also concerned by the packaged plants sold by <"Pets at Home">. My worry is that if they don't sell in sufficient volume (and I'm not sure  they will) that even fewer shops will sell plants.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Edvet

Selling tissue cultured plants would free the way for obligate (true) submersed plants. I see pots of Eichornia azurea now for instance


----------



## Costa

Right so how are tissue cultures produced? Emersed or immersed?


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Edvet said:


> I see pots of Eichornia azurea now for instance





Costa said:


> Right so how are tissue cultures produced? Emersed or immersed?


They are cultured emersed on Agar, but in a sealed container at 100% humidity. My suspicion is that no obligate aquatic plants are being tissue cultured (or even can be? @Mick.Dk?). 

_Eichornia azurea_ is a bit of strange one in that it has a submerged stem, but as soon as it gets to the surface it will produce floating leaves (_Heteranthera zosteriifolia_ does this as well) and my suspicion would be that these leaves are the source for the tissue-cultured material. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## zozo

Edvet said:


> Selling tissue cultured plants would free the way for obligate (true) submersed plants. I see pots of Eichornia azurea now for instance



I think we are taken for a ride with this one.. It says Eichhornia azurea - In Vitro Cup.


 

Well it's not totaly untrue, it indeed is in such a cup when you receive it.. But something in the back in my skull says, it didn't grow in there like that..
If i had any space for one at the moment i would love to order a cup and see. I have my doubts..


----------



## Andy Thurston

Costa said:


> Thank you guys. Are you suggesting that Tropica etc grow their plants emersed? In all the LFSs I've been I see the plants inside display tanks w/o signs of melting.


That's exactly what I'm suggesting...
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/ukaps-visit-tropica-denmark-2010.10103/
Have a read of that thread


----------



## Costa

Thank you Andy!


----------



## chinwag

I've been trying this method after loosing my first batch of Micranthemum. This time I setup 2 heated propagators, one MC and one HC but it looks they're both headed the same way!

I'm having a hard time keeping the water topped up without it being soaked - can you run these propagators totally dry or is that a fire risk?

Day 1 (only got a photo of the HC)


 

Day 24 HC (excuse the blurry shot)


 

Day 24 MC




Grateful for any pointers - I'm thinking less water, more light. @Konsa already gave me some tips re it being too wet on my first go but having backed it off, I'm still not having any joy!

Thanks.


----------



## tam

Check your propagator instructions, some are the other way - don't run wet. I grew mine with just damp soil and a cover, no standing water. Also not heated above room temp, but it is winter so you might need a bit more warmth depending where you are keeping them. 

What light are you using?


----------



## chinwag

Thanks @tam - I read the instructions cover to cover but there's hardly any useful pointers in there, it says either use capillary matting, or if you don't want containers in the propagator to water the compost cautiously.

Not really sure how to water it cautiously! lol.

I have the same model propagator that Andy used so hopefully it's just a lighting thing - I've been reading up about propagators and some people use matting, some use sand, some use nothing at all, I guess it comes with experience.

Lighting wise, I have a couple of LED lamps running, 1 is 13.5w 6500k 1055lm, the other is 9w 6000k 800lm.

I just measured up and the lights are between 2.5 - 3 feet from the soil, so nearly a meter for the farthest (they light a shelving unit that has everything I'm growing on it).

I might try and shift the propagators nearer the lights and see what happens.

Thanks.


----------



## tam

I've only tried on window sills/outdoors rather than artificial light.

For 'cautious' watering sneak up on your plants, gently place in a tray of water, tip toe away for about ten minutes and then, checking your mirrors, return and remove them from the water. This gives enough time for the soil to soak up all the water it can hold, so you then don't need to leave them in any standing water. As they've been in sitting in water, you could just tip away what's currently in the container as they are pre-soaked. If you place a clear cover over you'll create humidity and prevent evaporation, and basically shouldn't have to water again for awhile. 

It seems weird as we are growing plants that we usually keep completely submersed, but everything I tried was very happy just in slightly damp soil (top soil/soil based compost you get from the garden centre) on a window sill at room temperature. Wish I found them so easy under water!


----------



## Edvet

chinwag said:


> 2.5 - 3 feet from the soil,


I would get them closer


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,





chinwag said:


> more light


That would be my guess as well. If you can, I'd try a S. facing window-sill or @EdVet's suggestion.

cheers Darrel


----------



## foxfish

You need more light, if you want faster growth!
You can grow in damp or soaking soil.
We strive to give our water filled aquarium plants as much C02 as possible aiming for around 30ppm and then we match the light source to that relatively low amount of C02.
In your propagator you will have around 400ppm of C02 so you can up the ligh considerably!


----------



## kadoxu

What kind of soil are you using?

I ran mine with a lot more water than that (almost at soil top level) and it was just fine, just keep the vents half to fully open. If the room temp is too hot in Mars, you should unplug the propagators.

You have the lights too far away... Had a chihiros A-Series at 70% intensity just a couple of inches above the propagator and sprayed water with a tiny amount of ferts once or twice a week.

1 week and a half




3 weeks


 

You can check my Journal "One Tree Hills" (link in my signature) for more info.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





kadoxu said:


> Had a chihiros A-Series at 70% intensity just a couple of inches above the propagator and sprayed water with a tiny amount of ferts once or twice a week.
> 
> 1 week and a half
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3 weeks


 A lot of it is  down to time of the year. November and December are poor times to try and grow plants inside, because of the low ambient light levels and short days.  If you can keep them ticking over they should do better once the day length starts to improve in February.

@Kadoxu's plants show the sort of growth you could get during spring or summer. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## chinwag

Thanks for all the replies.

@tam lol. great description of cautious watering, thank you!

@kadoxu - Soil is Jon Innes No. 3. That's some great growth you have there, exactly what I'm hoping for.

I'll move the lights closer and see what happens. This is going to be a tricky one because I finally got my Christmas Moss to take off with everything where it is now! I'm going to take a photo of it now in case I kill it! lol.

Thanks again for the pointers. I'll post back.


----------



## tam

chinwag said:


> I'll move the lights closer and see what happens. This is going to be a tricky one because I finally got my Christmas Moss to take off with everything where it is now! I'm going to take a photo of it now in case I kill it! lol.



If you find it's too bright for the moss (haven't tried that) you could use a bit of shade netting between the moss/light or anything that cuts it down a bit.

Good luck!


----------



## chinwag

@tam - Thanks, I've got some shade netting over it at the moment, it's taken off since I added the shading, shaded Java in the same propagator started growing straight upwards for the light, so I've seperated them and removed the shade from the Java.

I might get some proper lighting sorted like @kadoxu - I have lamps everywhere!

Thanks again, I'll post back in a few weeks when things have changed one way or another.


----------



## kadoxu

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,  A lot of it is  down to time of the year. November and December are poor times to try and grow plants inside, because of the low ambient light levels and short days.  If you can keep them ticking over they should do better once the day length starts to improve in February.
> 
> @Kadoxu's plants show the sort of growth you could get during spring or summer.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Those pics are from November/December last year. But as I said, I had a Chihiros LED above the propagator and the propagator has a heated base as well. 

This one was 19th Dec 2016, about 1 and a half months of growth


----------



## tam

Thought I'd share a picture of my, very neglected, tray. It's been outdoors since spring, going between flooded to almost bone dry and back, then I stuck it in my little greenhouse with everything else in the autumn. I'm not sure if it's actually frozen in there, but it's certainly got pretty close. It's a mix of dwarf hairgrass and lilaeopsis mauritiana. Can't remember whether it's soiled based compost (John Innes no. 3) or lilly compost, but it's not had any fert top up.

Don't know what the moss is - it's just added itself.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





kadoxu said:


> hose pics are from November/December last year. But as I said, I had a Chihiros LED above the propagator and the propagator has a heated base as well.


Brilliant, that is really good. I'd assumed it was spring or summer because of the growth.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Barbara Turner

Has anyone tried growing anubias in a heated propigator?
Was thinking about buying Pangalino and milky-way. Possibly buce in the future.

I was wondering about using Rock wool for the substrate to try and stop the root system rotting. Then fertilise using a double dose of EI. Doing 100%  water change every week.  Do I need a small sump pump to try and circulate the water?

If you keep the progator closed for 23 1/2  hours a day, will the humidity stay at +90%, has anyone measured the humidity? Just saw some reptile foggers and wondered if they would help?

Im guessing if I did add any extra led you can run them for 18 hours a day.

Thanks in advance if anyone can answer my awkward questions.


----------



## Konsa

Hi
 I had bucephalandras in propagator tied on small  slivers of lava rock (5mm ish high) over moist but not too wet compost with osmocote in it as I normally setup for the other plants. It grew but nothing special and slower than in my low tech so I gave up.The soil I used may have been a little too acidic for them as I think about it now.Maybe will give it another try with different brand soil that is neutral or a little alkaline this time.And give them a spray with Rhizotonic  (Canna) to help the root formation so they get to the soil faster.
U dont need to worry about the roots rotting they were sound  deep in the compost.As long as rhizome is on top all is good.I had my lights on 6am till 11pm and all other plants were flying
Regards Konsa


----------



## Barbara Turner

Konsa said:


> on small slivers of lava rock (5mm ish high)


 Good idea to use a small rock, I wonder how tropica do it. 



Konsa said:


> 6am till 11pm and all other plants were flying



I read online about some plants growing faster with a lighting cycle of 6 hours on, 2 off, I wonder if buce is one of them.


----------



## chinwag

I last posted in this thread back in December 2017 - I lost one propagator and was really struggling but the other one has gone OK and has been ticking over since then on just water topups and nothing else.

Propagator is heated - I haven't had it constantly, but I try to keep it on as much as possible.

Lighting is just Ikea grow light strip - the prop is at the bottom of a 3 shelf unit.

Anyway, it's looking a little brown here and there, but I thought I'd post it up just to show it's still going!


----------



## Andy Thurston

If your in the UK now's the time to bin the heater and put it on a window cill


----------



## Andy Thurston

I'm glad this thread is still going strong. I originally posted to encourage people and I'm so glad I achieved this. Keep up the good work peeps


----------



## Melll

This is a brilliant idea  👍


----------

