# What's happening to my M Kubotai...?



## Majsa (29 Oct 2017)

Hi all,

This is my first post on this forum, I really wished I could have started with a happier subject. And sorry for the long post..

I have about a 4-5 month old Eheim Proxima 175L (70x50x50 cm) with:

Plants: Java Fern, Anubias, Vallisneria, mosses and some crypto's
Ferts: EI + EasyCarbo (spot treating some BBA)
Tech: Eheim 2x 24W T5, Eheim 2373 (350T) using spray bar, CO2, Eheim skimmer 24h on
- I know, low tech plants in a higher tech setup... 
Fauna: 15 Neon Tetra's, 10 Oto's, 11 Amano shrimp and the few Kubotai's left...

So I had the Neon's & Amano's (since 2 months) and 6 Oto's (since one week) and went to a LFS on Friday to purchase 4 more Oto's and 18 M Kubotai's, bringing my stocking level to 76%. I asked if that would be too much fish in one go, but the person at the store said this wouldn't be a problem. Acclimatized them and everything seemed OK. I really liked the M Kubotai's, I had been dreaming of having them for months. 

The next day (yesterday) I noticed some of the M Kubotai's had ragged fins but since I wasn't really familiar on their behaviour yet, I thought they were not acting too bad. I had seen a Kubotai to swim with the Oto's up and down the glass but thought he just needed to settle and find his mates. I thought of preventing any problems with a dose of eSHA 2000, which I thought would be safe. The water turned greenish but so far so good.

Maybe that was a fatal decision? 6 hours or so later, I saw three Kubotai's die in a very short period of time. The pattern was quite clear: one drops off the group, starts swimming up and down rapidly against the glass under the spray bar and in just a few minutes he's gone. I panicked, didn't know what to do and performed an emergency 50% water change, thinking I have poisoned the fish with the eSHA. This seemed to help, I thought, watching the fish for an hour or so and no one died. I went to bed but having difficulty to sleep (stress!), I check the fish in the middle of the night and had 14 Kubotai's left. I saw a Neon starting the dance and I heard myself shouting "No, not the Neons!..." In the morning I performed another 25% WC still thinking that I had poisoned the fish and during the day many more Kubotai's died. 2-3 bad ones I euthanised, hoping they would not affect the others. At the moment I have only 5 M Kubotai's left! Other fish and shrimp are seemingly unaffected.

I am really upset about all this, I think I should have called the LFS instead of using the eSHA but I thought  I could handle this myself. After the treatment I saw the fish deteriorating, one had a big white patch at the base of the back fin and many had the base of tail turning reddish/brown. They must have been sick in the first place, didn't I look good at the store? Or is there something in my tank? I thought I would have enough oxygen with the spray bar and the skimmer. I don't have an ammonia test but NO2 was OK when testing. The Neons are fine (I think I just panicked about the one), as well as the Oto's and Amano's. One Oto seems to be extra active but I guess that's normal...

What could be the disease? Did eSHA accelerate the deaths? Do I need to fear for the other fish? I stopped the eSHA, what to do? In any case, I am calling the LFS tomorrow. Reading some posts here I thought I wouldn't need a quarantine tank, but oh I guess I was wrong...I'm so sad, I hope the Kubotai's are swimming in heavenly, well oxygenated streams. Attached some pictures, hope it worked.

Thank you so much for any responses, this is a great forum.


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## Edvet (30 Oct 2017)

I tried to find out what are the ingredients of esha, sadly there doesn't seem to be a duty to inform the public about what's in there. So i can't say if there are any dangerous products in there.
In getting fish from an LFS there are always dangers: How long did the LFS have them, how where they acclimatized there, and how were they acclimatized in your tank. Those fish could have had it rough, from breeder to shop, getting used to their tank, and from shop to you, gettingbused to your water. So it could be you didn't do anything wrong.
How did you acclimitize them?


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## zozo (30 Oct 2017)

See the difference in body shape in the second pic, between the lowest and the 3 above it.. The lowest has a nice round belly, the other 3 have a flat belly almost concave.
That is not the shape they should have, they should all have a nice round belly.. I see this a lot in any lfs especialy with the rasbora and boraras sp. What it is and why they have it i can only guess.. But for me that is the reason not to buy fish like this.

Lately those selectial danios are rocketing in popularity, in these fish sp yu also see this body shape a lot.. Some say it's inbreed, others point to fish tuberculosis or internal parasites. My guess goes to one of the last 2, also see the same with boraras or rasboras which are not yet captive bred and wild catch.

Anyway if you see this bodyshape in the lfs than how lovely you think they are do not buy.. Be patient and wait till you see a batch where every fish in the school looks equaly healthy and well shaped. I know, it's difficult, patience in this hobby is a rare thing to find..


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## Michal550 (30 Oct 2017)

About month ago I bought 20 kubotais and lost them all in 4 days.


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## Tim Harrison (30 Oct 2017)

I think your fish maybe suffering more than one compliant. It's likely they've been suffering for sometime if they weren't looking too clever in the the LFS, and have perhaps just succumbed to the added stress of rehoming.

eSHa products have always served me well in the past and are usually very well tolerated by all aquarium critters. For what it's worth I think you did the right thing dosing eSHa 2000, it's what I would have done. The deaths after dosing were probably coincidence.

I would do another very substantial water change and dose again. Double check the dosing requirements and don't forget to factor in the capacity of your filter and remove absorbent filter material. You can use the dosing calculator here http://www.eshalabs.eu/english/products/esha-2000supregsup.html toward the bottom of the page.

If that doesn't work give some thought to combining eSHa 2000 with EXIT and gdex. This will give you a very broad spectrum treatment.

It's sometimes difficult to resist the temptation of buying fish that are not 100%, especially if you've been hankering after a certain species for sometime, but it rarely ends well.
Reputable retailers will not sell diseased or stressed fish in the first place, and in this instance your LFS is at least partially responsible for your tank deaths.


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## zozo (30 Oct 2017)

Tim Harrison said:


> Reputable retailers will not sell diseased or stressed fish in the first place, and in this instance your LFS is at least partially responsible for your tank deaths.



Today it is hard to find serious retailers which have quarantine tanks and do not just bulk and push. Or how do you say something like that in english.. All LFS near my place are all about big branche wall marts with an aquarium section.. And actualy get about all the fish from the same wholesale importer. Go straight into the display tank and are sold.. I've seen, because i know the delivery day and time. They also get the life food from them and always go on that day to buy it as fresh as possible.. It's like the wholesaler and the retailer don't give a flying figure, abnormal fish are not screened they are pushed through like nothing is wrong. It's big bussines and an answer to high demand. 

And indeed 1,5 years ago i bought 5 good looking healthy Kobutai's it were the last they had that day.. All 5 are still healthy and living today.. Since then i wanted a few more, but never found a healthy batch again till today. Till now every time i saw them the majority has this flat/concave deformed belly and i know from that wholesaler it is wildcatch.. Still waiting not buying them till i see a complete healthy batch again.

One day i said to the shop clerck, "Look at these Kobutai's man!! These are all sick".. He smiled and said "Why because they all look green?"   He didn't know, he didn't see and thought i was joking..  Hopeless bunch..


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## Edvet (30 Oct 2017)

I agree with you, and it's hard to find decent salespeople. On the other hand for a shop the costs are usually high ( rent, salaries, stock) and they have to compete with other shops or gardencenters, while the "regular" clients have little knowledge and only want "that red fish". So margins are little and taking good care of the fish isn't feasible costwise
I only know of  a small number of shops which are knowledgable enough and dare to do it right. Even for those it's not easy economicaly.
Compare for instance with Germany where people are much more willing to spend money on their hobby. More and better shops there.
I guess the "scaping" interest is economicaly more interesting for shops because there are better margins on the hardware, be it most hardware can easily be bought online compared to live stock.


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## Tim Harrison (30 Oct 2017)

Yeah, I agree too. It's all too often an unfortunate reality in the trade these days. Generally speaking though our national chain of Maidenhead Aquatics are usually very responsible; but there are always exceptions.
And there are still quite a few independent retailers in the UK that run a tight ship. For instance, Destination Aquatics in Bedford is well worth the hour drive to get the best stock.


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## Majsa (30 Oct 2017)

Thank you all for your responses. 

Edvet, I acclimatised the fish by setting the two bags they came in in the tank and adding water every once in a while, until they were almost full. Then carefully moved the fish into the tank with a net. This took about 2 hours. I had the lights and the CO2 off for half a day that day.

I agree I should have observed the fish better in the shop and not buy them in the first place. That would have saved me a lot of trouble trying to save the fish...I called the LFS, I was afraid they'd be defensive but actually the conversation was OK. He was about to check the tank where the fish were but unfortunately I had bought all the Kubotai's he had. He will give me a call when he has a new batch and give me a nice price, for what it's worth. At least I know better now to watch the fish more closely (good point to pay attention to the bellies) and will not buy if they are not OK. As zozo said I will need to get used to the idea it can take longer before I get good, healthy fish. 

What troubles me though is that the LFS person said that doing 50% water changes weekly is too much, and that my KH of 7,5 is high...that doesn't sound right, does it?

In the meanwhile, things are getting calmer in the tank. The 5 Kubotai's are still alive, although one is very thin and looks like he's on a survival mode. The other 4 look much better, rounder and more active, without their own school sometimes hanging out with the neons. About the advice to dose eSHA again, I am quite scared to do that, at least not before the weekend when I can see what's happening. If I remove the sick one as a precaution (I don't have much hope for him) and the others remain OK, would it be better for the other inhabitants not to dose, or would it rather be good to do it in order to prevent any further issues in the tank? 

I have to figure out for myself how to go further, maybe buy only 6 or so new fish at a time (provided they are healthy) or even set up a quarantine tank after all...although I will have hard time explaining to my family that we need a 3rd tank (I have a 40L one too with CPD's and shrimp).


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## Edvet (31 Oct 2017)

Majsa said:


> LFS person said that doing 50% water changes weekly is too much


that kinda says it all............


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## roadmaster (31 Oct 2017)

I would ask the LFS if he would hold the next shipment of fishes for a week with a small deposit from you/me.
This way, maybe the fishes that  are weak or sickly will exhibit symptom's in HIs tank rather than yours/mine.
50 % weekly water changes have been the norm for me for a few decades.
Some Discus folks change 75 to 90 % of their water daily with no ill effect's.
With acclimation method mentioned,, I might add a couple drops of PRIME water conditioner to bag while acclimating for more than  an hour.
this would be cheap insurance against possible ammonia from fish waste/respiration during prolonged acclimation in relatively small container.


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## Edvet (31 Oct 2017)

My prefered way of acclimatisation is: empty the bag in a bucket, drip tankwater in said bucket till half full, almost empty the bucket in the sink (close the sink in case a fish jumps out), drip tank water again till bucket is full, empty bucket in tank.


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## dw1305 (31 Oct 2017)

Hi all, 
I like to get the fish out of the traveling bag, and into the tank, fairly rapidly. I'm not a CO2 user, and I'm working on the theory that the tank water is going to be much better quality than the water in the bag.

I pour 9/10 of the bag water away (through a net just in case), and then I put the bag (with lights out) into the tank and let the tank water run into the bag. After that I just ignore the bag until the fish have swum out. If they haven't swum out after ~twenty minutes I gently slide them into the tank by lifting the bag out base first. 

cheers Darrel


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## Tim Harrison (31 Oct 2017)

That's pretty much how I do it too Darrel, I don't really see the point in prolonging the agony, I think it only stresses the fish more. The only difference is I buy fish and introduce them first thing in the morning, before the gas comes on. That way they adapt to the raising CO2 concentration without any stress.


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## Majsa (31 Oct 2017)

The little fish didn't make it through the night, but the other 4 are happily swimming with the neons and seem just fine. I expect them to survive. I have picked up my regular maintenance and won't be doing any significant changes in the near future.
Thanks for all the ideas, I am definitely learning here...I am glad I posted, many things get clearer for me and hopefully others can learn from this too.
I like roadmaster's idea of LFS holding the shipment, I wonder if they'll do that for me.


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## zozo (31 Oct 2017)

dw1305 said:


> I like to get the fish out of the traveling bag, and into the tank, fairly rapidly.



Same here.. They immediately go into a bucket with the water from the bag.. Than i syphon half that volume from the tank into the bucket, few minutes later i do that again and duoble the volume. Than i net them out into the tank and all this within 15 minutes.. Than i alwas feed live food and observe.. Usualy all them frenzy immediately. I reckon it must be heaven for them..

Never realy have problems with it.. Tho i always expect a percentage to die the first days or weeks. If non do, that's a bonus and a sign of all are healthy fish.

Sounds cruel, but i see it like, that is what mother nature is and she aint the forgiving type.. You might think all is at a constant with what you see is what you get, but it's far from it. Temperaturs can change rather quickly in a natural aquatic invironment as also do water parameters. As does in air, it has currents and layers of different densities and temps etc. Slowly mixing at occlusion fronts bumping into eachother, where vortexes and turbulances develop. Water behaves in basic the same manner, aerodynamica isn't much different from hydrodynamica.

And fish are evolved and addapted to live in hydrodynamic invironments. They do not get a warning sign, before they swim through another density layer with different temps and parameters, they just do it all the time. Think of tributaries, river/stream deltas where different water parameters meet. Mud streams and flood streams etc. bringing different parameters and temperatures.

It shouldn't shock them, if it does they obviously are very weak to begin with, than leaving weak fish in a bag is not going to improve them in any way... And more likely beyond any help. As many of us already experienced, even with treating still a few die. And if they don't who can say it was the treatment saving them?


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## dw1305 (31 Oct 2017)

Hi all, 





zozo said:


> And fish are evolved and addapted to live in hydrodynamic environments.


What really started me thinking about this was that the fish used to station themselves in the water change water as it flows into the tank, details are here <"RO water and pH ....">.

cheers Darrel


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## roadmaster (31 Oct 2017)

Me thinks there is not a whole lot about glass box of water that mimics nature from fish perspective.
In the wild fishes can move from warmer water to deeper cooler water, or up or down stream for several kilometer's till they find comfortable condition's. .
Are not tides or rain's or current's to speak of in glass box of water to carry away pollutant's.
The fishes very much rely on us for their chances of long term survival.
We dump food's,fertilizer's in the tank near daily in some cases,CO2 level's near toxic,blast em with light, maybe select poor tankmates,lapse maint ,etc.
I began trying to keep plant's for them in an effort to improve water quality.
The weed's I can take or leave,  but I can easily spend hour's on the weekend just watching the fishes as opposed to that that passes for entertainment on the Television.


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## Edvet (31 Oct 2017)

That's why for me it's always fish first, plants second.


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## tam (31 Oct 2017)

I imagine your success in quick acclimatisation would depend on how closely the shop mimics your water. If both you and a local shop are using the same tap water then 20 minutes and a few swigs of the new water might be all it needs. If the shop is running hard tap water and you are running soft RO, for example, then I would guess that's a much bigger and more stressful change. My understanding is that going from very hard to soft can also effect osmotic pressure and increase stress. I would also guess it depends on the fish, some are just more sensitive than others which would influence the success rate.

"Never realy have problems with it.. Tho i always expect a percentage to die the first days or weeks."

I would have a different definition of no problems - I don't expect any to die! Yes, occasionally it happens but I wouldn't expect it as the norm. Stuff mother nature, once we take them from the wild we are responsible for their welfare not her!

I'd look at drip acclimatisation - it's an easy way to do a gradual introduction and save you having to go back and forth adding new water.


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## zozo (31 Oct 2017)

dw1305 said:


> details are here <"RO water and pH


I always experienced the excact same and change straight from the tap. Winter times i change with a slightly less inflow speed to avoid a to heavy temperature swing. But viewing the fishes behaivor, this never changes. They always come towards the fresh water stream no matter the temp summer or winter. Play in it, chasing bubbles.. No idea what draws them, curiousity? The extra oxygen? Maybe they just like a cold shower once in a while.. I don't know, but it certainly doesn't bother them. 



tam said:


> very hard to soft can also effect osmotic pressure and increase stress


I'm not so sure, also this can easily occur in nature.. There are very calcerious streams and pools, these are all almost all the lower point rainwater collectors. Rainwater is RO water, if not even softer. On floodseasons where massive amounts of rainwater flows into these excisting waterbodies, water levels rise meters within minutes, this must cause enormous fluctuations in hardness etc.. And this keeps occuring from time to time for the entire periode the fish evolved to live there.. Makes it very hard to believe for me that it aint addapted to that by now.  Same as we are addapted to live in the atmosphere, we also do not drop dead or get sick immediately with ever change and we also go through a lot of them chances also within minutes sometimes.


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## tam (31 Oct 2017)

zozo said:


> I'm not so sure, also this can easily occur in nature.. There are very calcerious streams and pools, these are all almost all the lower point rainwater collectors. Rainwater is RO water, if not even softer. On floodseasons where massive amounts of rainwater flows into these excisting waterbodies, water levels rise meters within minutes, this must cause enormous fluctuations in hardness etc.. And this keeps occuring from time to time for the entire periode the fish evolved to live there.. Makes it very hard to believe for me that it aint addapted to that by now.  Same as we are addapted to live in the atmosphere, we also do not drop dead or get sick immediately with ever change and we also go through a lot of them chances also within minutes sometimes.



I see your point... although altitude sickness is a change in atmosphere that effects humans and changing gradually helps prevent it  I think there are some changes that are too big to cope with suddenly, it's just knowing exactly what they are for individual fish species.

It would be really interesting if there was more specific details available about the natural water conditions for different fish and how they changed over seasons. It might be some fish cope fine with that because they've adapted for it and others that don't experience it naturally aren't. Or that the stress of that sudden change in the wild is manageable because they aren't dealing with others at the same time (being shipping to shop, caught again, car journey, etc.). 

The fish I purchased at the weekend had a TDS of 960 where as my tank in remineralised RO is about 200 - I think even rainfall wise that might be quite a sudden change. I like to acclimatise slowly as that's a stress I can mitigate. I top up existing fish with straight unheated RO though as I think that's a mimic for rainfall and not a big enough change to cause stress - in fact as it's used as a trigger for spawning in some species I'd say they even like it.


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## zozo (31 Oct 2017)

tam said:


> It would be really interesting if there was more specific details available about the natural water conditions for different fish and how they changed over seasons.



This is not the first time this subject is disussed here at UKAPS.. There are topics to find, also where members have posted scientific papers on past field researches in the tropics. And you would be surpriced about the changes in parameters occuring through the day, measured in the same water from dawn till dusk. If we would measure these swings in our tanks we would be horrified beyond imagination. I remember reading pH swings from 4 to 9 with in half a day. I believe it was member "MarcelG" linking to these papers he did some professional field an lab studies on these kinda subjects. He also had his own website about it, but it's deleted at some time in the past. Also haven't seen him arround a long time and changed his account name, he's no longer listed with his former name. I have no idea what happened. But i guess the topics definitively should still be around.  Sorry i'm terrible at bookmarking.


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## dw1305 (31 Oct 2017)

Hi all,


tam said:


> My understanding is that going from very hard to soft can also effect osmotic pressure and increase stress. I would also guess it depends on the fish, some are just more sensitive than others which would influence the success rate.


Yes I think that is right, I also think there might be more of a problem in the USA where their LFS tend to add salt to the water.


dw1305 said:


> This links to a very good water quality article <"Water Chemistry: Osmoregulation, Ionic Imbalance & pH"> by Joe Gargas.





tam said:


> I would have a different definition of no problems - I don't expect any to die!


I would agree 100% with that.


Edvet said:


> That's why for me it's always fish first, plants second.


Same for me.

cheers Darrel


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## PARAGUAY (1 Nov 2017)

zozo said:


> Today it is hard to find serious retailers which have quarantine tanks and do not just bulk and push. Or how do you say something like that in english.. All LFS near my place are all about big branche wall marts with an aquarium section.. And actualy get about all the fish from the same wholesale importer. Go straight into the display tank and are sold.. I've seen, because i know the delivery day and time. They also get the life food from them and always go on that day to buy it as fresh as possible.. It's like the wholesaler and the retailer don't give a flying figure, abnormal fish are not screened they are pushed through like nothing is wrong. It's big bussines and an answer to high demand.
> 
> And indeed 1,5 years ago i bought 5 good looking healthy Kobutai's it were the last they had that day.. All 5 are still healthy and living today.. Since then i wanted a few more, but never found a healthy batch again till today. Till now every time i saw them the majority has this flat/concave deformed belly and i know from that wholesaler it is wildcatch.. Still waiting not buying them till i see a complete healthy batch again.
> 
> One day i said to the shop clerck, "Look at these Kobutai's man!! These are all sick".. He smiled and said "Why because they all look green?"   He didn't know, he didn't see and thought i was joking..  Hopeless bunch..


Yeh and any good retailer would let you see the quarantine facility if asked ,at quiet times of buisness.A shop,sadly gone or moved I visited had as many quarantine tanks as shop display ones.Some fish on sale in other shops he didn’t have on sale as they never made it out of quarantine


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## Edvet (1 Nov 2017)

PARAGUAY said:


> any good retailer would let you see the quarantine facility if asked


I bet not one in ten LFS has a quarantine.They treat the wholeseller as quarantine.


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## zozo (1 Nov 2017)

Edvet said:


> They treat the wholeseller as quarantine.



[ranton]
And that's what they should be..  By Law!! When it comes to this and to make people (children) environmentaly aware what btw is momentary very fashionable, but fails big time. Anyway i plead for:

1 - controled regulated import - export, wholesalers need to contact a Vet to check on the animals.. He needs to sign a permit and health certificate before any animal is released on the market.
2 - Anybody who wants a Vivarium for keeping animals, needs to be 18 to do it, else with parents consent, needs a basic permit as well, to get this they need to attent to a class and take an exame. Under 18, parents need the permit. And not just 1 permit, no several, special aquariums, lets call them biotopes whatever or keeping special fish not fit for community tanks  You simply need a special permit...

Teach people that it is not about what they want, instead that it is all about what the animal in question needs. And how to manage that.

Not living up to the rules is punishable by a bombardment with rotten Tomatos in a public place.. And Cauliflowers as well for the serious offenders.
For example serious offenders are LFS owners selling inaccurate test kits, bottlles, pills and powders to change water parameters to inexperienced little kids to experiment on the fish he sells them at the same time..

If this doesn't change and stays as is, no child will ever get invironmentaly aware, they will keep on maltreating and experimenting on aquarium fish etc... Which is the least respected and most severely maltreated PET in the entire world, like it is a meaningless toy without feelings.
[rantoff]


That's realy what baffles me the most.. The LFS with 110 display tanks and 1 filter system.. Equals with all tanks have the excact same water, so the easy community fish have it as well as the rather difficult to keep Apistogramma and Discus they sell have it, very often for months. Than you buy one and suddenly it needs very special water? WTF is this? Should you buy this fish in the first place? It was in the same non suitable water as every other fish in the entire store for the last 3 months. Duh???


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## tam (1 Nov 2017)

zozo said:


> That's realy what baffles me the most.. The LFS with 110 display tanks and 1 filter system.. Equals with all tanks have the excact same water, so the easy community fish have it as well as the rather difficult to keep Apistogramma and Discus they sell have it, very often for months. Than you buy one and suddenly it needs very special water? WTF is this? Should you buy this fish in the first place? It was in the same non suitable water as every other fish in the entire store for the last 3 months. Duh???



What you don't see is how many dead/unwell looking ones are netted out before opening each morning, or during the day.


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## zozo (1 Nov 2017)

tam said:


> What you don't see is how many dead/unwell looking ones are netted out before opening each morning, or during the day.


And you expect non of them to die when you come home with a batch?? Interesting!?


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## Edvet (1 Nov 2017)

zozo said:


> need to contact a Vet to check on the animals


Can we make that mandatory for all dogs, cats, birds, rabbit's, guinea pigs, reptiles, fish etc etc.


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## zozo (1 Nov 2017)

Edvet said:


> Can we make that mandatory for all dogs, cats, birds, rabbit's, guinea pigs, reptiles, fish etc etc.


100%


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## MirandaB (3 Nov 2017)

That kubotai in the second pic is showing classic "saddleback" columnaris and the speed of fish dying would also point to that disease too


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## Majsa (5 Nov 2017)

Oh that really sounds like it...  The difference is though that none of the other fish are affected, I thought columnaris would affect all the fish in the tank? The 4 "survivors" looked OK for a while, but started showing (different) symptoms later this week, more like velvet disease or maybe fungus (small whitish powder-like areas and some kind of shimmer in the fins). I have started eSHA 2000 and Exit treatment this morning, as suggested earlier in this thread, fingers crossed...They have remained active all the time so I hope they will make it.


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## MirandaB (5 Nov 2017)

It usually does affect the other fish in the tank but the others will probably have better immune systems than the Kubotai so they may not succumb or it may take longer depending on how virulent the Columnaris is.
Hopefully the eSHa combo will do the trick but if not then Waterlife Myxazin tends to work better on Columnaris but you'd need to do 2 courses at half dose with a 50% waterchange between if you have sensitive fish in the tank such as loaches.


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## Majsa (5 Nov 2017)

That could be it, the other fish (other than the 4) seem very healthy, hope they will remain that way. Thank you for the tip for Myxazin. I did not find the product in my trusted webshops yet, will have to look further. But let's hope it won't be needed!


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