# Tuning the system - what should a novice do next?



## joeinlondon (19 Sep 2008)

Hi All

I am a semi-novice at the planted tank game and need some advice, please!  (Here we go again you're probably thinking.)

I have set up a 60x38x30 (LxHxW) using (from the bottom up) laterite mixed with 2-4mm gravel, Colombo Fe and general plant substrate capsules, another layer of gravel, pure RO water, some bogwood, an approx 500lph internal filter, Colombo areosol CO2 injector, Powerglo T5 25w with reflector and on one side an 18w Aquidistri hang on lamp, cannibalised from my previous set-up.

I have planted with E. tenellus, E.rosea, C.balansae, C.becketti, and underneath the Aquidistri light a large area of N (or is it Hygrophilia?) stricta.

Fertilization is via Colombo Floragro every 14 days, Easycarbo at 1ml per day, and the aerosol CO2.  I am not dosing with nitrate and phosphate - yet - and know that nitrate is okay for the moment (see below).

But I'm having a few problems and after browsing the net and this forum wondered if I might ask for some clarification...

*First question:*
I was shocked to find on day one that I had high levels of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate (the latter 50ppm).  Did all of this come from the laterite?  Or could it have somehow leached out of a lot of up-rooted and re-planted plants (although there's hardly been any Crypt melt) and the old bogwood?  I tested the RO before it went in and it was pure.

*Second question:*
I now have what I believe to be 'hair', or 'silk algae', at problematic levels.  The amano and even the Ottocinclus (don't worry no ammonia or nitrite now, and nitrate down to 20ppm) are getting stuck in and only last night re-took the E.tennellus from the enemy!  Heh heh I love those little fellas.  Anyway - there seem to be different theories on why this type of algae thrives, but I have noticed my N. stricta are looking a little yellow on the new leaves - should I give them more liquid plant food?

*Third question:*
Is it normal for E.rosea to throw up a reddish leaf and then gradually fill it in with green, or is this a sign of deficiencies somewhere?

*Fourth question:*
I currently have the 25w powerglo on for 12hours, and the 18w Aquidistri on for 10.  Do I need to tune this?

I feel that the tank is doing semi-okay (plant growth is happening, although not amazing) as there are a myriad of tiny bubbles coming up from the leaves, which is 'pearling', right?  And that's good innit?  Any help offered would be most appreciated.

Thanks

Yours

Joe


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## Themuleous (22 Sep 2008)

Hi there welcome on board 



> First question:
> I was shocked to find on day one that I had high levels of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate (the latter 50ppm). Did all of this come from the laterite? Or could it have somehow leached out of a lot of up-rooted and re-planted plants (although there's hardly been any Crypt melt) and the old bogwood? I tested the RO before it went in and it was pure.



I doubt very much it is your substrate.  It could be the plants dieing bank after being moved but if you've got a cycled filter running it shouldn't cause any problems.  BTW unless you have fish that require pure RO water, it isn't necessarily the best for plants.  You're better off using tap or if its very hard water cutting it say 50/50 with RO and tap, as the plants need all the nice things that you get in water to grow.



> Second question:
> I now have what I believe to be 'hair', or 'silk algae', at problematic levels. The amano and even the Ottocinclus (don't worry no ammonia or nitrite now, and nitrate down to 20ppm) are getting stuck in and only last night re-took the E.tennellus from the enemy! Heh heh I love those little fellas. Anyway - there seem to be different theories on why this type of algae thrives, but I have noticed my N. stricta are looking a little yellow on the new leaves - should I give them more liquid plant food?



I tend to find amano's eat most types of green thread algae.  Perhaps you need more or to stop feeding the fish for a few days to encourage them to eat it.  You could also add some nerite snails which I find will eat everything but BBA and staghorn.



> Third question:
> Is it normal for E.rosea to throw up a reddish leaf and then gradually fill it in with green, or is this a sign of deficiencies somewhere?



Cant answer thing one sorry.  Red in plants can sometimes be induced by cutting back on the iron levels, but its risky as you dont want to starve the other plants of iron in the process.



> Fourth question:
> I currently have the 25w powerglo on for 12hours, and the 18w Aquidistri on for 10. Do I need to tune this?



If it were me I'd running the 25w for 8 hours and the 18w for the middle 6 hours.

BTW do you know what your CO2 levels are like?  I've not heard of that CO2 kit before, do you have a link to it?

Hope that helps.

Sam


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## joeinlondon (22 Sep 2008)

Hi Sam

Thanks for replying - I was beginning to get lonely!

Do you know what?  I've just ordered Diana Walstead's book from the USA (at some expense) because I'm getting depressed with this Hi-tech stuff!  I've got surface scum, green hair algae, staghorn algae, and even some blue-green that I removed the other day.  I'm having a wonderful time!   

I did put a mature filter in the tank from start-up, but I think I killed it accidentally along the line, hence the high levels recorded.  I'm using RO because I'm trying to find a technique for future use for keeping soft-water fish, and I thought things would be easier with a blank slate...

I think my problem is I've gone in a bit half-cocked - the CO2 unit I'm using is very similar to the Tetra Optimat system:

http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=194_247&products_id=484

and I definitely don't want to dose with phosphate and nitrate.  You know what?  The more I think about it, the more I think I am a low-tech person.  All this dosing doesn't feel right!


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## Themuleous (22 Sep 2008)

Haha right, well if you definitely don't want to be dosing then it really is only low tech.  But dont be put off by dosing its really not as difficult as it might seem.

Your issues with algae are probably due to a lack of nutrients which starves the plants.

Sam


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## GreenNeedle (22 Sep 2008)

I would say that the issues are all CO2 and nutrient related due to:

1 - too much light - Cut back as Sam suggests and add 2ml EasyCarbo.
2 - Circulation - You only have an internal and this is probably why you are seeing so much surface scum.  It will also be adding to the CO2/nutrient problem in that it is not distributing them around the tank properly.

If it were me on a small tank like that I would run the 25W for 8 hours and not use the 18W apart from photographs (if it makes the colour better.)
Then I would ditch the aerosol CO2 and just dose the 2ml EasyCarbo.
Finally I would upgrade to an external or add a small powerhead at the otherside of the tank to get your lph up to 10x th tank volume.  What filter are you currently using?

Not heard of Columbo before so can't really comment on if it is any good or not. Sounds like you have plenty of nutrient in the substrate though so it should give you 'room for error' on dosing once you've sorted out the above issues.

I think the high ammonia levels are undoubtedly a filter issue (as you say, maybe you did kill the  bacteria).  a reading of nitrate of 50ppm is not high in my eyes.  Some old schools of though would say it is but I would suggest that it has built up due to plant defficiency rather than nitrite conversion.

Unless you have fish that require RO I would go with Sam and use tap water.  water in Lincolnshire is pretty hard and it is an old theory that plants like soft water.  Just look at the tanks on here from regions with hard water for the proof.

The algae is undoubtedly linked to the high ammonia reading as well as CO2 problems.

The 'pearling' is more likely to be oxygen leeching from plants that are deteriorating.

AC


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## joeinlondon (22 Sep 2008)

Hi AC - thanks for your response.

I am seriously considering going low-tech at this point but your advice (and summary of Sam's advice) is tempting me to stay my hand.

The filter I have on the tank is a Tetratec - the second one up from bottom in the range I think rated at about 500lph.  There appears to be current all round the tank though: every plant wafts about a bit and I think the overall mixing flow is okay.

On the light side I am not a fan of the Powerglo - far too pink/purple.

On the water side I eventually want to keep wild discus, wild dwarf cichlids so I want to make it work with soft water...

Lastly - I'm not sure my fish are enjoying the easycarbo too much - or is it the reams of algae blowing in their faces, I don't know!

Essentially I'm trying to strike a balance between a bit of tech and a more natural system - is this possible or do you think I need to go all one way or the other?

Much obliged for your responses by the way.

Joe


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## Ed Seeley (22 Sep 2008)

RO is fine to grow plants in; I use it for all my tanks.  Just add some minerals back in to get about 3-4dGH.

I think you definitely need to sort your CO2 out and get a good pressurised system supplying 30ppm during the daylight hours.  I'd get one with a solenoid so that during the dark (or in the event of a powercut) the CO2 is turned off so your fish are fine.  Your circulation sounds ok for a near 60l tank but internals simply aren't as good as decent external as they can't compete with the amount of media.  Ideally I'd put a decent external on the shopping list too.

You don't say how many shrimp or Otos you have, but I'd get a group of each if you haven't got that many.  Probably 4 Otos and 6 or so shrimp.  They'll soon help munch the last bits of algae.

I trust you aren't planning to keep the wild discus in this tank!!!  A two footer won't even be big enough for a mated pair!!  It will be great for a pair or trio of Apistogrammas and they'll love the natural soft water conditions!


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## joeinlondon (24 Sep 2008)

Hi Ed, thanks for your response.

Don't worry - no wild anything going anywhere near this tank!  I'm using it as a trial run - trying to get the feel of things before committing on something larger.

At the moment I have cut the lighting to just the 25w powerglo, 8 hours a day.  I have also increased the easycarbo to 2ml/day (with a worried eye on my fish), and added some more plants: unidentified crypts and something else that was suviving and spreading in my local shop's undergravel filtered tank(!).  I have considered getting a proper injection system, but I worry that if I do that everything will snowball - I'll be upgrading the lighting, getting phosphate and CO2 testkits/droppers, an external filter etc and then it'll be Â£300 later, and I'll also be committed to the high-tech, high-dosing, unnatural style of tank that I am beginning to feel is not for me.  And a good aquarist should be able to make things work with what they have, n'est pas?  So I would like to succeed with this setup - for the moment.

I have a good 'algae army' in there: 6 shrimp and 3 Ottocinclus, and they do a good job, except that the shrimp keep a very low profile now that the resident Bolivian Ram has been returned (although he ignores them).  Thankfully the blue-green has not reappeared, so I just have two fronts - staghorn and hair - to combat.

So for the moment I'm going to keep everything 'low-energy', and see if the tank can right itself.  Now all I have to do is wait for the Walstead book to arrive...

(PS - how do you upload pictures into your message?  Am I being very dense?)


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## beeky (24 Sep 2008)

joeinlondon said:
			
		

> ... getting phosphate and CO2 testkits/droppers....



Arghhh! Don't let ceg hear you say that. He'll come round and burn all your test kits!



> So for the moment I'm going to keep everything 'low-energy', and see if the tank can right itself.  Now all I have to do is wait for the Walstead book to arrive...



I have to admit to having the book, but I haven't read it yet. I've only had it a year or two though....
It's all about how to setup a tank completely naturally (or so I've been told   )



> (PS - how do you upload pictures into your message?  Am I being very dense?)



Put your picture up on photobucket, flickr or the like and get the URL (the link) to the picture. When you post a message, click on the "Img" button at the top of the form and insert your URL in the middle. When you post the picture should be shown.


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## GreenNeedle (24 Sep 2008)

I wouldn't worry about 2ml a day in that tank. the  proper dosing would be 1.5ml and you say you have a decent amount of plants so its hardly an overdose.  the plants should consume it. Don't look at the fish.  If you were overdosing too much the shrimp would be dead (or very lethargic) after day 1!!!

You may actually see faster growth now if that makes sense.  What I mean is that as the light is lower and not pushing the plants to grow so fast then they are less likely to become defficient and deteriorate (1 step forward 2 steps back) .  In simple terms they wanted to grow faster before but couldn't and then got sick.  Now they want to grow slower and can so they don't deteriorate (Â½ step forward and none back). lol

As for the phosphate thing, after a while you will get sick of paying a shop for your Columbo and make up one of the recipes on here from tap water and powders which will be 1/100th or less of the cost per year of using the Columbo!!!!

If the plants do struggle to recover then I would next look at the fertiliser.  maybe it doesn't add enough nutrient!!!!  Give it 2-3 weeks and report back what changes (if any) there are.  Patience is key with problems like algae.

AC


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## Ed Seeley (24 Sep 2008)

I can understand your reluctance but stable CO2 levels IME are the biggest thing to a succesful planted tank.  I run 3 tanks with pressurised CO2.  Only 1 gets regular EI fertiliser doses, the others are run on very low nutrients but CO2 at 30ppm and run great.  The lighting is lower and I don't have any major problems that a few Ancistrus and Otos can't deal with.  The only times I have problems with them is when I cut back water changes when the fish are breeding or something.


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## joeinlondon (25 Sep 2008)

Ed, beeky and AC - thanks for your responses.  It's great having some help on this.

At the moment the tank is not doing too badly - if I had time to join photobucket right now I'd stick a pic up but I'll try and do that later.  I have slashed the lighthing back to 8 hours and the algae has calmed down, the fish seem okay with the easycarbo, and the plants are looking good too.  AC I think you're right - they seem to be growing in a more stable, stronger fashion now.  I still give them a 2 hour midday burn with the 18w as well though!

One thing though - the E.tenellus is growing strongly and sending out little plantlets, but growing 'red'.  What does this mean?  Is it something to do with iron?  There's laterite in the gravel so I would have thought it would be quite rich in that...


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## joeinlondon (26 Sep 2008)

As promised here are a couple of pics (I hope.  New to photobucket world.).

This was day one of setup:





And here's how it was looking yesterday:




Any comments welcome...


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## ceg4048 (26 Sep 2008)

Hi,
    Assuming the color balance of both photos are identical it appears most of the plants have leaves which appear to be suffering chlorosis. If this is the case and is not a photographic issue then it clearly indicates nutrient starvation, typically Nitrogen, although it could easily be exacerbated by other trace element shortages such as Fe, S or even B. It also appears that there is Green Spot Algae (GSA) accumulation on the left pane, although this could be a reflection. If that is the case then this indicates Phosphate starvation. The angle of view of the photo is too wide to see specifics. Higher magnification is required to determine if there are other algal forms present. Based on the available evidence I would suggest you massively increase the level of NPK and trace element dosing immediately and that you lower the light intensity if possible.

Cheers,


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## joeinlondon (29 Sep 2008)

Hi Clive (it is Clive, isn't it?)

Thanks for your response.  You are correct - and sharp eyed - I have green spot algae (GSA) issues, but seeing as I've so far had BGA, hair, staghorn and surface scum green spot is a welcome change!  For the moment at least.

You may wish to kill me for saying this but I don't want to dose with nitrate and phosphate, as it does not fit in with my long-term aims!  I have increased my trace element addition to every day, rather than one big lump post-water change, so I'm waiting to see if that will make a difference. How did people achieve lush plant growth before the idea of NPK dosing?  I wish to emulate that method, and have Walstead's books coming from America...  

I have already cut the lighthing back to 25w powerglo 8 hours a day, and 2 hours of the 18w Aquidistri (which is on the left side of the tank, where you spotted the GSA).  Things have really calmed down algae wise and I am enjoying the tank, so right now I am loathe to change anything and thus rock the boat - and those yellow leaves are getting greener every day.

Perhaps I am adding too much easycarbo (2ml a day) for the available nutrients?


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## ceg4048 (29 Sep 2008)

Hi Joe,
         Well, NPK dosing goes back to the day when someone saw greener grass growing from a cow pie in the field. Everyone has their goals so it would be unfair for me to be critical for aspiring to the low tech approach. Lush low tech tanks are achieved over much longer periods of time and are typically very stable with much lower maintenance due to low growth rates. It can be achieved with a rich substrate and lower lighting, however, adding Excel to a low tech tank changes it from low tech to high tech tank. The extra CO2 generated increases the uptake demand for nutrients and more importantly, increases the plants' metabolism such that they produce a higher rate of organic waste. This does more damage and induces more algae, especially if the lighting is even just marginally higher than it should be. If your intent is to run a low tech tank then then it's worthwhile considering weaning the tank off Excel and keeping the lighting low. If you keep the Excel addition then it's a bit more difficult to maintain top health without some level of water column NPK.

Again, I don't know what motivates others to be reticent of dosing NPK, and I do accept the low tech, low maintenance philosophy, but what I am always critical of is the concept of a "Natural" tank. In nature there are no systems that are in any way similar to our electric glass box. Natural processes occur within a tank, certainly, but the tank system itself is unique and can in no way be natural. I've lived in tropical countries and have seen what submerged aquatic plants look like in their native environment. Many more times than not, they look complete rubbish, undoubtedly due to some nutrient limitation. In fact, usually, when a submerged aquatic plants appear to be in decent health it's because of higher than typical available nutrient levels. A casual glance at most aquatic systems worldwide will reveal that the highest levels of biodiversity and biomass always occurs when there are high NPK levels in the water column. The fact that plants evolved to feed directly from the water column in the first place clearly indicates that feeding them via this method can't be any less natural than feeding them via the sediment, therefore I have no qualms about NPK dosing. The biggest and tastiest fruits and vegetables always comes from an NPK dosed farmers field, not often from a wild one, so I feel we do ourselves an injustice if we shun nutrients due to a notion that somehow we are being truer to the cause by withholding water dosing, or that "natural" is somehow better than "unnatural". I also don't see why dosing the water column with Fe/traces is considered OK yet dosing NPK isn't.

Submerged aquatic macrophytes have been bestowed the ability to feed from both sediment and water column, therefore in my opinion, the so-called natural methods merely focus on the root uptake mode of plant growth while eschewing the equally relevant other half of the plants capability - the leaf.   

Cheers,


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## Egmel (29 Sep 2008)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> The biggest and tastiest fruits and vegetables always comes from an NPK dosed farmers field, not often from a wild one,


I would debate tastiest!    Biggest, yes, shiniest, probably but tastiest tends to be when the plant is trying to put more energy into a smaller fruit which indicates that there's a deficiency somewhere that's limiting the size of the fruit.  Herbs especially are much more tasty if not given everything they want   

Anyway, I'm just dragging this off topic.     Sorry, I'll let you get back to aquatic plants again!


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## joeinlondon (29 Sep 2008)

Hi Clive

Okay okay okay okay!  Heh heh.

I do get it - the philosophy behind the hi-tech approach, and I think I understand what you're saying.  I suppose my reluctance is from a fish viewpoint - perfection for them would be zeros across the board for any sort of nutrient, and I just find it difficult (especially from keeping marines back in the day), to get away from feeling uneasy with nitrates and phosphates floating about.  Have you been able to keep delicate fish in a hi-tech planted tank?  If so then I am one step closer to dosing.

In fact I am thinking of getting Tropica +, or whatever it's called - the one with the nitrate and the phosphate (booooo!  boooooo! [from the crowd]), but am still stalling at 50% water change per week, as that means a trip to the LFS every week for water, (to keep my soft-water cichlids happy).  Could I get away with a 30% change, and a bit of Tropica + (booooooooo!), what do you think?

I feel a traitor to the water column already   

Joe


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## Egmel (29 Sep 2008)

joeinlondon said:
			
		

> Could I get away with a 30% change, and a bit of Tropica + (booooooooo!), what do you think


You can 'get away' with all sorts and it would definitely be better than just dosing the trace elements and doing a weekly water change.

So long as everything is balanced (co2/carbon additive, ferts, lights) then you should find that there isn't much build up of anything in the tank and the water change is just for removing algae spores and organic waste.

I've no experience with keeping delicate fish but I know people on here have had all sorts of fish breeding in their tanks whilst dosing so I'd say it doesn't affect the fish anywhere near as much as you'd expect.  

If you're looking at the TPN+ route then you might want to check out JamesC's all in one solution which is cheaper and basically the same thing.


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## joeinlondon (29 Sep 2008)

Thanks Egmel - I've saved that page and will have a look at it later   .  Although if my wife knows that I'm making concoctions to put in the fish tank she will cuss me out of the game.  It was bad enough when she caught me with the test kits!

As you said, it is all about balance, isn't it?  I'm beginning to understand this.  Like a car - engine, chassis, tyres - the whole lot has to be balanced and in proportion otherwise you're going to have problems.


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## GreenNeedle (29 Sep 2008)

The amount of nutrient you add to your tank even with EI where you dose an excess is a tiny percentage of fish danger levels.

There is a lot of talk of Nitrate @50ppm being a worry on non planted forums but I remember Tom Barr saying that it could be as high as 1000ppm.  The truth is that noone has tested every kind of fish at each level so noone can give the answer.

If you dose at EI / PMDD+PO4 levels etc then you will be nowhere near causing any distress to your livestock.  If anything you have gone the other way and dosed more trace which contains minute amounts of copper (which is dangerous to fish and inverts in high amounts.)  Again don't worry as you will be nowhere near these levels assuming you are dosing by the printed amounts.

It is wrong to assume that perfection for fish is zeros across the board for nutrient as this is nigh on impossible without RO filtering etc.

In nature fish eat, poop and plants die and rot.  So fish are always swimming in nitrates and phosphates.  Add to this other animals adding to it.  Also remember that trace elements are vital to all living organisms.  even us.  Did your mother never tell you to eat your greens. they have iron etc?

Just find a low light, low maintenance method, or use the EI method and follow it.  No need to worry about the fish as long as you do not make an astronomical error.

AC


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## joeinlondon (1 Oct 2008)

> It is wrong to assume that perfection for fish is zeros across the board for nutrient as this is nigh on impossible without RO filtering etc.



I'm not sure I agree with you on this one.  In the wild, the sheer volume of water involved means that dispersion of nutrients must be considered almost instantaneous, no?  But I get your general point, and thanks for your input.

Have now started dosing 1ml/day with TPN+ (just started this morning), so will see what happens.

Surely though, surely, there is a way of having a pure water column and healthy plants  - i.e., through substrate feeding only.  I wonder if this is what Walstead is on about - here's me still waiting for her book!

This is the ideal I would like to achieve.


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## GreenNeedle (1 Oct 2008)

> Surely though, surely, there is a way of having a pure water column and healthy plants - i.e., through substrate feeding only. I wonder if this is what Walstead is on about - here's me still waiting for her book!



In Walstads tanks the soil contains the nutrients.  It will however leech some into the water column, the fish will create some.  All manner of things like wood, rock, plants, livestock will create nutrient so even when using RO water it removes the impurities before adding it to the tank.  Once in the tank it will have nutrient added back in.

Think about it like this.  Sheer volumes of water will carry the nutrient along but running water also causes erosion so a stream will keep on bring nutrient into the water from erosion and from further upstream.  What is her now passes but is replaced by more of the same.

In a lake or pool there are still fish, shrimp, clams etc.  There is erosion too etc.

In nature dont think of the water moving taking nutrient away because in the same movement it is bringing more in.

I wouldn't worry.  Tom Barr keeps Discus in a full EI (excess dosing tank) with no probs.  See below (hope he doesn't mind me putting his pic up):





Maybe Tom will pop in on the thread and convince you.

AC


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## ceg4048 (1 Oct 2008)

joeinlondon said:
			
		

> > It is wrong to assume that perfection for fish is zeros across the board for nutrient as this is nigh on impossible without RO filtering etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Completely agree with SuperColey1. It's not clear to me what the origin of the idea that somehow, aquatic systems are defined as pure or ideal based on lack of nutrients or even lack of particle suspension in the water column. Have a look at this for page example: Amazon River outflow fights greenhouse gasses which shows that nutrient effluent from the Amazon river outlet actually has an effect on biomass growth as far away as in the Gulf of Mexico. As Andy says, the same large volumes of water are responsible for erosion of terrestrial sediment and for dumping that sediment and it's nutrients into the water column. The effect of these large water masses (and how they got there) can't be dismissed.

If you look at this abstract of a Amazon nutrient study Phytoplankton biomass and nutrient distributions in the Amazon River plume You'll see some amazing numbers like the annual water volume discharge rate of this river system - over 12 trillion cubic meters, and around 1.2 billion metric tons of sediment and nutrients flooding the northern half of the continent. These are serious levels of nutrients which are responsible for the incredible levels of biodiversity that the Amazon system is know for.

Crystal clear waters devoid of nutrients are essentially deserts. Good for drinking but not for living things.

Cheers,


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## joeinlondon (1 Oct 2008)

Firstly - that is some tank.  Thanks for showing.  I feel like someone has hit me in the face with that one.  Absolutely beautiful - and he's not afraid of a fish or two (a criticism I feel might be levelled at a few planted tanks   ).

Okay gents, I am going to go away and think about this nutrient in the column business.  And will read those articles!  I think I am just a bit unenlightened.

But perhaps there is still a middle way - has anyone tried using a plenum and 2-4mm substrate, a la Jaubert/Goemans/Gamble?  Bob Goemans says he's had emails from someone who tried a planted tank with a plenum, and it was highly successful.  Perhaps the fact that the plenum would 'suck' the nutrients down (due to the ionic charge attraction process [apologies for my ruthless and inaccurate summary of the process]) into the substrate would take them out of the water, and right near the plants' roots where they need them.  I am itching to try a freshwater plenum!


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## GreenNeedle (1 Oct 2008)

There is nothing wrong with experimenting so go ahead with this plenum (whatever that is. lol)

trial and error are key to learning both your own learning and others from your results.

I myself am experimenting (starting today) trying to prove that the 'high light' plant is an unfounded theory!!!  I am trying to show that maybe the plant needs high light to grow in a particular fashion but will still grow healthily in lower light.  I may have picked a fall down at the first hurdle plant with Rotala Macrandra though. lol

Good Luck.  Try things out.  Let people know what happens.  they will benefit from the experiment just as you will.

AC


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## joeinlondon (2 Oct 2008)

Good luck with your experiment AC!

Away from theorizing, I've got algae issues again.  I have just started dosing with TPN+ (Wednesday morning) @ 1ml/day for my 67 odd litres, so I have only dosed yesterday and today.  However since Wednesday I have seen staghorn algae resurging on the older leaves of my plants.  My water change day is Tuesday evening, so here's my first question: *if you do a water change of an evening (and in this case I am using pure R/O, for reasons outlaid before!), but dose in the morning, is that nutrient gap enough to do the plants in, and trigger some algae?*

I have read James' and Dusko's article on algae, and they mention that staghorn is might be down to overstocking, ammonia, breaking down leaves.  For my 67L I've got 10 cardinals, 3 otos, and 2 Bolivian rams - one adult, one sub-adult.  Plus half a dozen shrimp.  *Is this overstocked for a planted tank?  Is the issue not the resultant nitrate (which I thought was good), but the ammonia in the water before it gets cycled by plants or filter?  Is that the theory behind low stocking, low algae?*

Finally - what should I do?  Should I be patient, hold the line and keep with my latest regime which is as follows:

Lights: 25w powerglo 8 hours, 18w Aquidistri 2 hours
CO2: easycarblo @ 2ml/day (before lights on in the morning)
Additives: TPN+ @ 1ml/day (before lights on in the morning)
Feeding: flake twice a day (consumed within two minutes), FD tubifex or Sera brineshrimp once a day (consumed within two to three minutes)
Water change: 15l every Tuesday (evening)

Any input would be greatly appreciated!  I have really appreciated the help so far, and the discussion, and only wish there was some way of reciprocating but alas - I am but an algae ridden FOOL, with little knowledge, and less patience


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## GreenNeedle (2 Oct 2008)

I wouldn't over worry about your stocking.  I would say you are on the max there so don't add any more.

I would up your TPN+ though to 2ml daily.

You will get some algae for the first week or 2 as the plants get used to having everything they need available to them and adapt to this.

TPN+ is quite low in phosphate but your fish/food should make up the difference in your case.

I would suggest a little patience though.  Changes to the system even for the better cause shocks.  plants that were used to struggling as they were missing something will suddenly be shocked into action which they have to adapt to. Its like (Im starting to use similies more than Simon Cowell. lol)  A person who is lethargic due to an undiagnosed illness.  when suddenly the illness is diagnosed and treated, the person finds they have a bit of energy again but that doesn't mean they can suddenly do a 10 mile run.  They will have been given the opportunity and have to take their time to get to that level.

A couple of weeks and then you can give us the latest news which (if negative) will show something else is also defficient.  1 step at a time though.

AC


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## ceg4048 (2 Oct 2008)

Hi,
    Staghorn is most often associated with poor CO2.

Cheers,


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## Egmel (2 Oct 2008)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Staghorn is most often associated with poor CO2.


I thought it was fluctuating CO2 rather than just poor.  Bearing in mind this tank has no CO2 and gets all its carbon from easy carbo what's the solution if you don't want to add pressurised CO2?


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## JamesC (2 Oct 2008)

There are different types of staghorn. On my web page I have 3 photo's of staghorn of which the second one is the type of staghorn which is often associated with over feeding, whilst 1 and 3 are down to poor CO2.

http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm

James


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## ceg4048 (2 Oct 2008)

Egmel said:
			
		

> ceg4048 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Poor CO2 encompasses all the different variations whether that means poor flow, poor levels or fluctuating levels. Adding Excel is the same as adding CO2, but it doesn't mean that you are automatically adding enough Excel. It still has to be distributed properly and it still has to be added in proper levels for the given lighting intensity.

Cheers,


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## Ray (3 Oct 2008)

I would kill the midday burst, 25w may well be enough for what you are trying to do.  It will drop CO2 demand in the tank to what the EasyCarbo can supply and that should get rid of the staghorn.  For that size tank I would dose 2.5ml of TPN+ and 2.5ml EasyCarbo daily, you can mix them up in the same bottle if you like.  Those numbers are scaling up from my 25 litre 13 watt low tech tank where I have no algae:

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=537&p=24638&hilit=deficiency#p24638

Make sure you have good flow with plenty of surface agitation too.  Add the EasyCarbo shortly before lights on.


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## joeinlondon (3 Oct 2008)

I've got staghorn type II - overfeeding - so I'm cutting back.  I was getting the new Bolivian Ram acclimatised and making sure he got some chow, so I think this is easily do-able.

So Ray and AC- you say more eh?  More pollutants!  I mean wonderful nice nutrients.  Okay, I'll step it up in a couple of days or so.  And nice tank Ray.

Thanks again guys for your support and advice - most heartening and useful!


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## Ray (4 Oct 2008)

Be careful, dosing nutrients is not the same as having a filthy tank, they are chemicals, not organic like fish mulm.  James does not have a single algae in his gallery where he says "dose less".  For my 25L tank I was very resistant to dosing macros, I even dosed micros to excess until my shrimp died.  Then I had no choice, one bottle of TPN+ saved the day.  You need the balance between nutrients, CO2 and light and right now I'm sure you light is too high (that midday burst) and your dosing too low, both CO2 and Macros.

Dose like I suggest for 3 weeks, just run 25w light 8 hours, and spot treat the staghorn when you dose the Excel and I think you will notice the difference.  After that you can try changing things in the direction you prefer, but slowly, it takes 2-3 weeks to tell the effect of a change.


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## joeinlondon (5 Oct 2008)

Hi Ray



> and spot treat the staghorn when you dose the Excel



What do you mean when you say this and is Excel a similar product to Easycarbo?  I was surprised when Richard from Aqua Essentials told me that the latter (which I am using) contains an algicide, and James' article recommends 'overdosing with Excel' here and there (so I can see the links...).  I don't want to be cheating against the algae with an algicide!  Then I will have learnt nothing!

On the dosing front here is the current regime:
8 hours 25w powerglo only
2ml easycarbo daily
2ml TPN+ daily
Reduced feeding

Even though it has only been a couple of days of the TPN+ I think some of the plants are perking up.  The staghorn is stable and I have to say I'm enjoying the tank, although without the extra light growth is a bit slow.

Thanks as always
Joe


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## joeinlondon (5 Oct 2008)

Here's a recent pic:





Play spot the Bolivian Rams and win a prize.

Comments welcome!


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