# Dutch 110ltr



## milesjames (26 Jul 2022)

Those who followed the "Fidelia squid: Dutch Aquascape 55ltr" journal will know that my last dutch scape was in a 55ltr. This journal is the next step of the journey...


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## milesjames (9 Aug 2022)

So I have been holding back a bit with this feed as I wanted to get the tank started before giving too many details, but..... There has been a little chaos that is worth sharing. 

Some may have come across the feed I wrote about the rummy nose being too busy and indeed they were. 

They were no stressed or showing signs of I'll health but the tank to be frank was just not long enough for them. So I'd sit watching them shole left, right and each time it felt off as they could never really gain speed before turning. 

To add to this my "female" golden ram turned out to be a chap and things were not going well between the 2 of them. 

So after a week I decided to return both to the lfs. Unfortunately I'm not sure if anyone has had the pleasure of trying to catch rummy nose tetra but this proved to be much harder than anticipated. 

After 3hrs I managed to catch 7 of the rummy nose and the ram, at this point I gave up. So I took them to the store discussed the issues and some how left with 12 golden cloud minnows.... Thinking I'll catch the last rummy nose and all be well. 

But as any keen aquarist will have now realised I now have a golden ram, 5 harlequin rasbora, 8 rummy nose and 12 cloud minnow, which as they will know are not a normal mix due to temperature needs. But I have found there is a mid ground for all 28 degrees... 

I hear you say but its over stocked!! and indeed it is. But this wierd minagery has shown signs of working as a community!!! The minnows being too dwellers have settled in well, the rasbora and rummys are happy in the middle and the ram well he does what ever he likes. 

So this very unlike me collection of fish may stay for a while... Not just because I'm lazy to catch the rummy nose but because they all seem to have found an unstressed equalibrium. 

The plants have grown in well the readings seem good. (though I am doing 2-3 weekly wch) Much to my dismay at myself at the clear districtive nature of throwing my dutch style stocking to the bin. I think I may accept this. 

Photos will follow and plant listing soon let me know what you think as I'm sure you will. 

Miles James


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## milesjames (10 Aug 2022)

So photos...


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## erwin123 (10 Aug 2022)

Nice plant groupings, plants have nice colours? What Cabomba is that on the right? C. Furcata?


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## milesjames (10 Aug 2022)

Correct 😊 it came in a bit leggy but hoping to push the lighting higher to accommodate once past the early stages 😊


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## TheOslo (10 Aug 2022)

There’s no clean up crew?


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## milesjames (10 Aug 2022)

Blue shrimp from the last tank in  and 2 dwarf otocinclus. Though I may look to sort out stocking and increase the otocinclus to 5.


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## milesjames (11 Aug 2022)

Some shots of the cabomba showing good morning colouration 😊😊







Plus a great full tank shot, I'm going to have to invest in my intended canister filter soon...


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## erwin123 (11 Aug 2022)

Very nice Cabomba Furcatas! 

p.s. @eminor - how's your Furcata doing?  haven't seen photo update for sometime.


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## milesjames (12 Aug 2022)

So think it's time to list the plants!!

cabomba Furcata
rotala green
rotala h'ra
limnophila aromatica
limnophila Stella
rotala wallichii
mayaca sellowiniana
alternanthera reineckii mini
lobelia cardinalis mini
red lotus
hygrophila lancea araguaia
ludwigia sp. super red


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## plantnoobdude (12 Aug 2022)

milesjames said:


> So think it's time to list the plants!!
> 
> cabomba Furcata
> rotala green
> ...


If you’re going for a true Dutch tank. You will need to reduce the number of species to 1sp every 10cm of tank length.

Here are some good articles on Dutch style.





__





						Dutch Style Aquarium. | Bart Laurens
					





					www.bart-laurens.nl
				









						Some Rules for Dutch Style Aquascaping - A Quick Guide for Beginners
					






					www.aquatic-gardeners.org
				












						Tips And Tricks For Dutch Style Aquascaping
					

Tips and Tricks for Dutch Style Aquascaping




					barrreport.com
				




Hope you don’t mind a few criticisms.
Plant groups poorly defined, you’d want a good couple cm between groups.

Ludwigia and althernanthera are mirroring each other.

Too many species.

The light green stems have very little contrast and are very similar textures.

Use of red cabomba on the side, makes the tank seem smaller,

Anyway, if you weren’t planning on making a true Dutch style aquarium you can happily ignore all the above, and enjoy your aquarium. It looks great and should keep on getting better as the plants grow in.


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## milesjames (13 Aug 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> If you’re going for a true Dutch tank. You will need to reduce the number of species to 1sp every 10cm of tank length.
> 
> Here are some good articles on Dutch style.
> 
> ...


Hi Plantnoobdude, 

Welcome to the journal and thank you for the feedback😊

As you will know from my other feeds I am a man who likes to break a few dutch rules though I believe I'm closure than you think with this one. 

I have read all the articles you sent before and quite few more, so yes I'm aware of my rule breaking behaviour. 

Though I'd be careful in future on your speed to comment as many dutch scrapers like myself enjoy evolving a scape as we go like a painter. As well as the fact that some plants will grow in different colours and are intended to be vastly different heights. 

Plus as you will know Dennis Wong, Erkut Akylidiz, Tom barr, to name a few have never broken a rule for aesthetic purposes. 😉

I hope you don't mind the feedback but please find a break down on why some but not all of your comments are valid in the post below. This is not to put you on the spot, more so you can grasp some more insight into the Dutch start up. Including how planning, planting and prepping for final composition can be different from scaper to scaper.


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## milesjames (13 Aug 2022)

So I will break down your comments but try to give insight to me as a dutch scaper and the tank its self.

1. Plant groups poorly defined, you’d want a good couple cm between groups.

I plant densely this is due to the fact that I do fish in cycling and will communly plant too close initially to ensure plants get good light. Then I bring the groupings in tighter and in some case move them entirely once converted.

I have spoken about this in previous journals as I find myself being more fluid in setting composition. In some cases I even leave bare areas and bring new plants in one at a time to support in this process.

Currently though I can see you will struggle from photos I have 2 fingers widths between plants at the rear of the scape. These were mature plants and I intend them to bush out and  will trim them back to reveal the gaps once settled.

Forground plants are arranged tighter for light purposes but will be brought in together at a later stage.

2. Ludwigia and althernanthera are mirroring each other.

Interesting comment as in one way you are correct!! I have 2 red streets running which are nearly parallel but are going towards different view points.

This will change over time as the ludwigia will become a tall Bush framed in front by the rotala green and cardinalis. My hope is this will not feel like a road more a thin Bush  that will add depth. Whilst the alternanthera will play the road role and be the deep red of the lower area of the scape.

3. Too many species.

This is the comment where I hold my hands up!! I am a bit of a plant enthusiast and will break this rule nearly every time!!

Though I feel 12 for a 70x30cm  based aquarium is pritty good for me and I needed the rotala green to hide the Ludwigia sp red.

4. The light green stems have very little contrast and are very similar textures.

I'm afraid this comment is where you are wrong. The only greens that sit next to each other are the cardinalis, rotala green and the mayaca sellowiniana. 

All are different textures  and heights. They will pass the squint test and will be obscured by other coloured plants at points where they meet over time. 

Please remember plants develop colour over time so the rotala h'ra will be yellowy pink and the aromatica is actually got good purples when fully grown. 

5. Use of red cabomba on the side, makes the tank seem smaller,

Yes you are correct this is to cover the hideous in tank filter. Though I'm not bothered by this as actually I am an advocate for large plants in front that dominate as I believe it develops stronger depths when viewing the tank in real life not just in a photo.

I have plans for a canister filter and I'm sure if I intend to enter for compitition I'll be making alterations to this area.

After this little rant I'd like to say thank you for your feedback I do actually enjoy getting it. I hope you don't mind the break down on your points this is more to discuss my tank and my style/choices.

I love this hobby for its vast range of approaches and styles. I can but only hope one day I can hold my hands up and say yes my tank meets all of the rules of true dutch style, but for now I'm happy to get just 5 points on feedback 😂

I assume you must be working on a dutch tank yourself @plantnoobdude send me a link so I can follow you back. 😊


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## plantnoobdude (13 Aug 2022)

milesjames said:


> plant densely this is due to the fact that I do fish in cycling and will communly plant too close initially to ensure plants get good light. Then I bring the groupings in tighter and in some case move them entirely once converted.


👍 sounds good.


milesjames said:


> for large plants in front that dominate as I believe it develops stronger depths when viewing the tank in real life not just in a photo.


strongly agree. But I think a darkish green would open up the tank more.


milesjames said:


> They will pass the squint test and will be obscured by other coloured plants at points where they meet over time.


fair enough, excited to see how this tank progresses!


milesjames said:


> assume you must be working on a dutch tank yourself @plantnoobdude send me a link so I can follow you back. 😊


Not at the moment no. I have a 60p high tech, but that is far from Dutch, too many reds, more of a fertiliser experiment tank. Would love a 90p in the future for a Dutch though.


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## milesjames (15 Aug 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> 👍 sounds good.
> 
> strongly agree. But I think a darkish green would open up the tank more.
> 
> ...


Hey plantnoobdude, 

Send over 60p journal link would love to check out your work.  😊


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## plantnoobdude (15 Aug 2022)

milesjames said:


> Hey plantnoobdude,
> 
> Send over 60p journal link would love to check out your work.  😊











						My 60p soft water
					

wallichii Improvements in cuphea  Clean old growth  Stunted leaves collect algae, specifically GDA. These are the stems I replanted without roots. This plant fairs much better if you chop it down and let sideshoots develop.   I’ve always had problems with buce. Seems lately they’re doing better...



					www.ukaps.org
				



Here


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## _Maq_ (15 Aug 2022)

Do I see correctly that you struggle with iron deficiency?


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## dw1305 (16 Aug 2022)

Hi all,


_Maq_ said:


> Do I see correctly that you struggle with iron deficiency?


I was wondering that as well, whether the pale tips really are that pale? Or just the colour has been washed out by the light in the photo?

cheers Darrel


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## GreggZ (16 Aug 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I was wondering that as well, whether the pale tips really are that pale? Or just the colour has been washed out by the light in the photo?
> 
> cheers Darrel


I was having same thought. Cabomba Furcata should be a pretty deep red. 

Could be color of light, intensity of light, fert issue, or even camera settings.

@milesjames are these the colors you see in person??


milesjames said:


> Plus as you will know Dennis Wong, Erkut Akylidiz, Tom barr, to name a few have never broken a rule for aesthetic purposes. 😉


I know Dennis and Tom pretty well and neither claims to present a Dutch scape. Dutch-Hybrid, Dutch Inspired, or whatever someone wants to call it, but would likely be DQ'd in a Dutch contest. 

That being said judging has become somewhat more lax over time. Good luck with your presentation. I look forward to seeing how it evolves from here.


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## milesjames (20 Aug 2022)

Hi all

@_Maq_ @dw1305 @GreggZ 

So you are all correct the cabomba is not showing correct colours as of yet, the photos do not help as the colours don't really show through. 

I'm increasing light slowly as the tank is relatively new, so it is likely this is contributing. I dose 0.20 mg/l every 3 days.  So likely the iron is low as this should be 0.10 - 0.15 mg/l every 2 days givin the number of red plants.  

Let me know what you think guys,  will update you shortly been away this week.


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## Libba (20 Aug 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> If you’re going for a true Dutch tank. You will need to reduce the number of species to 1sp every 10cm of tank length.
> 
> Here are some good articles on Dutch style.
> 
> ...



Hey mate, I think it's fair to offer suggestions but to me the tone of this post comes across as a bit too critical. Just remember this is someone else's journal and the critique is unsolicited. I'm not saying you shouldn't offer suggestions for other people's tanks, just try to be a bit more tactful. It also comes across as a bit elitist. I've noticed that most amateur hobbyists tend to do a more "dutch-inspired" style rather than strictly adhering to competition rules. I just felt like this post goes against the general culture of the forum. That's just my take though! Nothing against you, I enjoy your journal and your posts.


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## plantnoobdude (20 Aug 2022)

Libba said:


> Hey mate, I think it's fair to offer suggestions but to me the tone of this post comes across as a bit too critical. Just remember this is someone else's journal and the critique is unsolicited. I'm not saying you shouldn't offer suggestions for other people's tanks, just try to be a bit more tactful. It also comes across as a bit elitist. I've noticed that most amateur hobbyists tend to do a more "dutch-inspired" style rather than strictly adhering to competition rules. I just felt like this post goes against the general culture of the forum. That's just my take though! Nothing against you, I enjoy your journal and your posts.


Honestly, I didn’t mean for it to come off as harsh, and I apologise if it did come off in that way @milesjames

Not everyday you see Dutch tanks on ukaps, so I guess I got a bit excited😅



Libba said:


> as a bit elitist. I've noticed that most amateur hobbyists tend to do a more "dutch-inspired" style rather than strictly adhering to


I’d like to clarify, I have nothing against tanks that don’t follow strict criteria outlined for a Dutch tank, my tank surely isn’t even close so it would be idiotic and a bit hypocritical of me to have something against them😂


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## GreggZ (20 Aug 2022)

milesjames said:


> I'm increasing light slowly as the tank is relatively new, so it is likely this is contributing. I dose 0.20 mg/l every 3 days.  So likely the iron is low as this should be 0.10 - 0.15 mg/l every 2 days givin the number of red plants.


If you are referring to iron dosing then 0.6 weekly is more than you need for any plant that I am aware of. I dose my very high light packed full of stems tank with micros at 0.40 Fe by proxy and no issues. As you said it's probably a result of lower light.  

I look forward to seeing where this goes.


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## milesjames (20 Aug 2022)

Hi @GreggZ, 

Thanks for the dosage details,  I'll pair back a bit on the FE see if this makes a difference.  

Excuse me for asking but what do you mean by proxy??


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## GreggZ (20 Aug 2022)

milesjames said:


> Hi @GreggZ,
> 
> Thanks for the dosage details,  I'll pair back a bit on the FE see if this makes a difference.
> 
> Excuse me for asking but what do you mean by proxy??


I create a custom solution of micros. I then dose that solution based on 0.40 iron ppm. All of the other micros relative ratios and ppm are based on the iron concentration. I hope that makes sense. Probably making it more confusing than it needs to be.


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## Hanuman (20 Aug 2022)

Cacomba furcate not being that red is usually because of insufficient light. This plant is among the most light hungry there is in the hobby and failure to comply with its light requirements is usually reflected in poor coloration and condition.


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## milesjames (20 Aug 2022)

GreggZ said:


> I create a custom solution of micros. I then dose that solution based on 0.40 iron ppm. All of the other micros relative ratios and ppm are based on the iron concentration. I hope that makes sense. Probably making it more confusing than it needs to be.


I see yes I don't work with DIY ferts/mineral salts. Was just confused with the proxy element thought it might of been a method of applying the ferts.  

Funny where your mind goes when you read certain sentences lol.


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## milesjames (20 Aug 2022)

Hi @Hanuman,

Yes I heard that it is a light thirty beast of a plant.  I've connected an additional light to combat this, I'm running both a fluvel plant and sky with an overlap based on the cabomba and lower plants.  I'm upping the levels daily, but may bring one of my higher lumen lights in to replace the sky once at full capacity depending on how the cabomba reacts.  

The plant came in really leggy due to low light at the lfs so done first of many trims recently to combat this.  Likely I won't see full colour or structure till im at full capacity.


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## _Maq_ (20 Aug 2022)

Hanuman said:


> Cacomba furcate not being that red is usually because of insufficient light.





milesjames said:


> I've connected an additional light to combat this


I still believe the opposite - phototoxicity, lack of magnesium and iron.
Now, I'm curious if more light helps or makes even more damage. Please, don't forget to let us know, @milesjames .


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## Hanuman (20 Aug 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> I still believe the opposite - phototoxicity, lack of magnesium and iron.
> Now, I'm curious if more light helps or makes even more damage. Please, don't forget to let us know, @milesjames .


He is just ramping up his light, not even at full power.
Fe is at 0.6ppm week. That’s far more than enough.
Magnesium I don’t know the dosing but I doubt this is the issue specially if using fresh substrate.
C. Furcata is notoriously light hungry. This is well known. What you see on those pictures is the tipical coloration one gets when the plant is underlite. He also said the plants where leggy when he got them. This plant also needs time to adapt.
Side note, I removed mine from my tank not because of this but because it is also an aerial root specialist. If it has enough space it will bent down trying to dig its roots. They need to be planted tightly.


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## milesjames (20 Aug 2022)

Hi @_Maq_ 

I dose 0.42ppm magnesium twice weekly so unless I'm under/over estimating this as well.  I really do agree with @Hanuman on this.  I will keep you posted on the lighting as I will be ramping up fast soon.  

Tank will be 1 month old next week so intensity will be much higher, so hopefully given cabomba' s growth rate we should have a result pritty quick!!


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## milesjames (20 Aug 2022)

Hanuman said:


> He is just ramping up his light, not even at full power.
> Fe is at 0.6ppm week. That’s far more than enough.
> Magnesium I don’t know the dosing but I doubt this is the issue specially if using fresh substrate.
> C. Furcata is notoriously light hungry. This is well known. What you see on those pictures is the tipical coloration one gets when the plant is underlite. He also said the plants where leggy when he got them. This plant also needs time to adapt.
> Side note, I removed mine from my tank not because of this but because it is also an aerial root specialist. If it has enough space it will bent down trying to dig its roots. They need to be planted tightly.


Interesting I wasn't aware of its aerial rooting!!! I thought cabomba hated tight planting,  at least that's what I've been working off.  

Currently I've gone with a standard wide plant grouping of every 1.5cm with trimming looking to hold form with mushroom shaping. 

Any thoughts on this being an effective choice??


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## Hanuman (20 Aug 2022)

milesjames said:


> Hi @_Maq_
> 
> I dose 0.42ppm magnesium twice weekly so unless I'm under/over estimating this as well.  I really do agree with @Hanuman on this.  I will keep you posted on the lighting as I will be ramping up fast soon.
> 
> Tank will be 1 month old next week so intensity will be much higher, so hopefully given cabomba' s growth rate we should have a result pritty quick!!


Mg is on the low side here, unless you are using TAP which probably contains enough Mg. But even if you aren’t, the soil probably contains more Mg than necesary at this stage of the tank’s life. I remineralize my RO with 10ppm of Mg and I know that’s more than enough. I was dosing 6ppm before and was good. My opinion here is that Mg is not the cause. But that’s just MO.


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## Hanuman (20 Aug 2022)

milesjames said:


> Interesting I wasn't aware of its aerial rooting!!! I thought cabomba hated tight planting,  at least that's what I've been working off.
> 
> Currently I've gone with a standard wide plant grouping of every 1.5cm with trimming looking to hold form with mushroom shaping.
> 
> Any thoughts on this being an effective choice??


Yes canomba will readily send aerial roots. You don’t need to plant them tightly as long as other plants are around it will grow fine and upwards. I planted mine with lots of space and the started crawling. I banished them.


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## milesjames (20 Aug 2022)

Oh substrate wise it has far too much I planted it with a seachem tab directly under it. As well as fresh soil etc. 






Though as I say I'm not on par with ferts as some...


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## milesjames (20 Aug 2022)

Hanuman said:


> Yes canomba will readily send aerial roots. You don’t need to plant them tightly as long as other plants are around it will grow fine and upwards. I planted mine with lots of space and the started crawling. I banished them.


Sounds good I keep on top of that!!


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## milesjames (20 Aug 2022)

Just found this video hopefully it uploads.  It shows colouration of plant much better!!


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## plantnoobdude (20 Aug 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> I still believe the opposite - phototoxicity, lack of magnesium and iron.
> Now, I'm curious if more light helps or makes even more damage. Please, don't forget to let us know, @milesjames .


I believe the same, looking closely at photos it appears it is not only the cabomba, but the limnophila, rotala appear to be having issues with iron deficiency.
0.6ppm Iron is very excessive, I agree. But that may actually not be available to the plants. 

I used to have Fe deficiency while dosing over 1ppm Fe from EDTA. I swapped to dtpa and I stopped having issues, even at Low doses such as 0.05-0.1ppm DTPA. 

@milesjames what chelate are you using for iron?


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## milesjames (20 Aug 2022)

Well first of all guys I have to say it's great to have you all chipping in on the journal and how I can get the best results from my plants!! 

What ever is the solution to the begging question, that is what's causing the colour challenges for my cabomba etc. I feel humbled at your dedication to helping me out.  😊

So currently I am fertilising at a pritty basic level using over the counter products including flourish and flourish iron.  This is partly due to fearing the unknown so not looking into the art of DIY ferts and due to access. 

Now I believe I dose heavily due to the fact that its a new setup with flourish tabs and fresh stratum as the substrate. So for now I feel can get away with heavily dosing the tank with these products and not worrying on the full mechanics,  but maybe this is an oppertunity for learning... 

What are your suggestions on the starting points for making appropriate ferts (products and quantities)  for my tank?


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## plantnoobdude (20 Aug 2022)

milesjames said:


> flourish and flourish iron. This is partly due to fearing the unknown so not looking into the art of DIY ferts and due to access.


I believe this is the heart of your problem. Flourish iron I believe is Fe gluconate. Gluconate is not available for long, I would suggest adding 0.1ppm Fe dtpa in addition to your current dosing while cutting back iron. This dose sHould be more than sufficient in terms of iron.
You may have better results with DTPA plus flourish+flourish iron or even try using flourish trace. Your plants, in terms of growth form are doing very well, so you are doing well onThat part.

Far as colouration goes, you may want to invest in light some heavier red blue spectrum as well. You may even consider adding a led strip of grow lights in combination with your current lights.

0.6ppm is plenty, which tells me you have availability issues, whether that be precipitation or something else, in my tank I’ve never needed to go over 0.1ppm Fe. To make sure you have good uptake also make sure you maintain decent concentrations of magnesium and manganese since these can contribute the to chlorosis.


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## _Maq_ (20 Aug 2022)

I do not insist I'm always right. @Hanuman may very well be right, the more so he's obviously got a lot of experience with this Cabomba. @milesjames , you opted to follow his advice, please, go ahead.
I'd just like to explain that phototoxicity can lead to pale tops of plants, i.e. lack of chlorophyll, for which magnesium and iron are essential. This does not necessarily mean that either iron or magnesium are insufficient as such. It's a physiological problem which I've faced with various species and, frankly, not always succeeded to fix. I suspect it's quite a common issue. But I'm not the right guy to explore this problem because I run low-tech and my lighting is always on the moderate side.


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## John q (20 Aug 2022)

Guys this tank is being dosed with 0.6 ppm of iron a week. I find it amusing that folks constantly suggest  fe deficiencies and suggest different cleates to solve the problem. 

@milesjames  tank looks great mate 👍


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## GreggZ (20 Aug 2022)

Here's my take. I can only speak to my personal experience. I've kept Cabomba Furcata for many years. I've kept it in heavy macros, light macros, heavy micros, light micros, Fe gluconate only, DTPA only, and EDTA only, and blends of all three. High dKH, low dKH. High dGH, low dGH. One thing that never changes is that it needs a good amount of light to show it's best red.  

That being said, adding more Mg would probably help everything.


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## plantnoobdude (20 Aug 2022)

John q said:


> Guys this tank is being dosed with 0.6 ppm of iron a week. I find it amusing that folks constantly suggest fe deficiencies and suggest different cleates to solve the problem.


the problem is what is _*available*_ to the plants, not what is dosed.
Here is a picture of plants when I was dosing over 1ppm Fe per week from EDTA. Does this not look iron/manganese deficient?


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## John q (20 Aug 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Does this not look iron/manganese deficient?


Not sure mate, did adding more fe solve the problem?


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## plantnoobdude (20 Aug 2022)

John q said:


> Not sure mate, did adding more fe solve the problem?


No, changing the Fe chelate and increasing the Fe:Mn ratio did.


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## John q (20 Aug 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> No, changing the Fe chelate and increasing the Fe:Mn ratio did.


Fair do's add a bir more Mn. @milesjames  What's the average ph of the tank.


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## GreggZ (20 Aug 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> the problem is what is _*available*_ to the plants, not what is dosed.
> Here is a picture of plants when I was dosing over 1ppm Fe per week from EDTA. Does this not look iron/manganese deficient?


This can be true. It's based on the pH of the tank. Tanks with lower pH will do fine with either, but higher pH tanks will do better with DTPA. 

As to Fe:Mn ratio what do you consider good? The fact is that 99% of the folks do not control their Mn as they use a mix or store bought solution, and most do quite fine.


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## plantnoobdude (20 Aug 2022)

GreggZ said:


> This can be true. It's based on the pH of the tank. Tanks with lower pH will do fine with either, but higher pH tanks will do better with DTPA.


My tank had Low pH and struggled with edta. So either EDTA did not work well and wasn’t available to plants, or the ratios came into play.



GreggZ said:


> As to Fe:Mn ratio what do you consider good


I think
4:1 to 1:1 is a good start, not to say you can’t have good results Outside this however.


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## dw1305 (20 Aug 2022)

Hi all,


John q said:


> Guys this tank is being dosed with 0.6 ppm of iron a week. I find it amusing that folks constantly suggest  fe deficiencies and suggest different cleates to solve the problem.
> 
> @milesjames  tank looks great mate 👍


The others are right, iron (Fe) is different from most of the other nutrients, <"because it isn't mobile within the plant">.

I'd you get <"chlorosis in the new leaves">, it is very likely to be iron (<"and/or manganese (Mn)">) deficiency.

The other issue is that iron forms a lot <"of insoluble compounds"> in <"alkaline, oxidising conditions"> so the total amount of iron added is irrelevant if none of that iron is in a plant available form.  As the others have said "Seachem Flourish" is <"gluconate based and a weak chelator">.

I think of it like turning the tap on and waiting for the sink to fill, it doesn't matter how much, or how quickly, water flows in, if the plug isn't in place the sink never fills up. Also if that plug isn't the right size the water still leaks away. An pH appropriate chelator is just the "right sized plug".

Cheers Darrel


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## Hanuman (21 Aug 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> I do not insist I'm always right.


Nor do I. I just gave my opinion based on what I see and my experience. I could well be wrong.


plantnoobdude said:


> I believe the same, looking closely at photos it appears it is not only the cabomba, but the limnophila, rotala appear to be having issues with iron deficiency.
> 0.6ppm Iron is very excessive, I agree. But that may actually not be available to the plants.


To be honest I don't see any deficiency in the plants in that tank. What I see are plants adapting and struggling some, which is normal for plants arriving in a new environment. But to call that iron deficiency seems extreme to me.


dw1305 said:


> The others are right, iron (Fe) is different from most of the other nutrients, <"because it isn't mobile within the plant">.
> 
> I'd you get <"chlorosis in the new leaves">, it is very likely to be iron (<"and/or manganese (Mn)">) deficiency.
> 
> ...


Not to dismiss any of the above, but I find it rather intriguing how fert deficiencies are the first diagnosis given in many threads specially when they are notoriously difficult to diagnose. And here is why I say this:
1. the setup is fresh, with plants just having being planted less than a month ago.
2. the soil is new filled to the brim with nutrients.
3. tank seems to be injected with CO2 which I would assume drops PH in the 5-6PH range making anything in there pretty much available to the plants.

If people are referring to the whitish tops on all of the plants we see, that seems to be the highlights created by the light above. Also the pictures are pretty washed out.

If it was my tank, I would let it be, make sure you Co2 is appropriate in relation to your light and I wouldn't touch your iron dosing at this stage. 0.6ppm is far more than enough, and it being available is not the issue here IMO. Even if only 20% of that is available to the plant, it would still be enough.


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## dw1305 (21 Aug 2022)

Hi all,


Hanuman said:


> Not to dismiss any of the above, but I find it rather intriguing how fert deficiencies are the first diagnosis given in many threads specially when they are notoriously difficult to diagnose.


Agreed, I think attempting to diagnose nutrient deficiencies is a <"mug's game">. I'm not a <"plant physiologist"> and I usually a steer well away from posting on threads which look too closely at <"Mulder's chart"> or <"Marshner's numbers">, I just don't have enough knowledge to make any informed comment.

I've always advocated adding an <"all in one fertiliser if nutrient deficiencies are suspected">. However, I think there are exceptions to <"_difficult to diagnose_">:

When people don't add any fertilser and their <"plants are small and pale">, and have shed all their older leaves.
When the <"older leaves have net vein chlorosis">.
When the <"new leaves are chlorotic">.



Hanuman said:


> If people are referring to the whitish tops on all of the plants we see, that seems to be the highlights created by the light above. Also the pictures are pretty washed out.


I wasn't sure, so that was why <"I asked the original question">.

cheers Darrel


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## John q (21 Aug 2022)

Fe gluconate isn't available for long but it's available (more than chelated fe). The plants will get what they need in a very short space of time. The plants in question don't need a constant drip feed of iron, folks that think they do.... fail 😁


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## _Maq_ (21 Aug 2022)

John q said:


> Fe gluconate isn't available for long but it's available (more than chelated fe).


I think that gluconate is considered special because it forms complex with _divalent_ iron ion. I wonder if this is of any positive value, I doubt it.


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## dw1305 (21 Aug 2022)

Hi all,


John q said:


> Fe gluconate isn't available for long but it's available (more than chelated fe). The plants will get what they need in a very short space of time. The plants in question don't need a constant drip feed of iron, folks that think they do.... fail


This is true <"for most elements">, but it isn't <"true for iron (Fe)">, plants actually need a constant drip feed.

<"Plants can't stock-pile it"> and then move it around, because it isn' t mobile within the plant, and photosynthetic tissue formed when iron isn't available <"will always be chlorotic">. The non-mobility of iron is why I've moved to using a <"hybrid Duckweed index">, where I add iron on a regular basis.

This is @Zeus. 's "Future of Aquascaping" picture, where the iron has been turned off and on.






Cheers Darrel


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## milesjames (22 Aug 2022)

So as most of us fear when leaving a tank for too long in the hands of friends and family.  I have returned to an aquarium of many new challenges!!! 

It would appear my parents have done their best to maintain the tank but clearly weekly water changes,  feeding appropriately, adding ferts and turning on my CO2 on is not in thier remit!!! 

I have returned to a snail infestation, 2 dead fish, and plants that look let they are crying for feeding. 

I love how when I text my dad to check up as they were house sitting stated the tank is doing great no issues exactly how you left it!!! 

Oh well I guess it is my own fault for leaving them in charge of such a young tank.  

Time to roll up the sleeves and start the process of righting the wrongs!!


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## milesjames (22 Aug 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> I believe this is the heart of your problem. Flourish iron I believe is Fe gluconate. Gluconate is not available for long, I would suggest adding 0.1ppm Fe dtpa in addition to your current dosing while cutting back iron. This dose sHould be more than sufficient in terms of iron.
> You may have better results with DTPA plus flourish+flourish iron or even try using flourish trace. Your plants, in terms of growth form are doing very well, so you are doing well onThat part.
> 
> Far as colouration goes, you may want to invest in light some heavier red blue spectrum as well. You may even consider adding a led strip of grow lights in combination with your current lights.
> ...


Thanks plantnoob I'll try making an adjustment and go daily with FE,  add additional magnesium and look into sorting some DTPA.  😊


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## milesjames (22 Aug 2022)

OMG you can't right this stuff!!! 

So I was thinking seems strange how can my tank have a huge snail infestation,  dead fish and my ottos be so fat!! 

Seemed like strange issues and my ottos although normally are chunking thier bellies appear like they have had a feast!!  To be having this after being away for just a week very odd... 

Then I turn on the light just now by hand rather than the app to find... 

My parents have been feeding the tank with shrimp and snail food not the flake in the cupboard.... The pellets are all over the top and if that's what they spilt god knows how much they put in!!!


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## _Maq_ (22 Aug 2022)

milesjames said:


> I'll try making an adjustment and go daily with FE, add additional magnesium


I regret your option.
You know, you've incidentally provoked an interesting discussion, where two to three opinions stand against each other:
(1) Cabombas need more light.
(2a) Cabombas suffer from phototoxicity (too much light) and cannot form chlorophyll in the canopy.
(2b) Cabombas would benefit from more/better-chelated iron plus magnesium.
I understand very well that you simply want to remedy your problem. Yet I would love if you turn a bit of a researcher and stick to one option or another. If I'm not mistaken, a while ago you opted for @Hanuman 's suggestion - option (1). Would you pleeease give it a try? I'd really love to know exactly the reason of your chlorosis.


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## milesjames (22 Aug 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> I regret your option.
> You know, you've incidentally provoked an interesting discussion, where two to three opinions stand against each other:
> (1) Cabombas need more light.
> (2a) Cabombas suffer from phototoxicity (too much light) and cannot form chlorophyll in the canopy.
> ...


Hi @_Maq_ ,

First of all cheers for the post and yes there is alot for me to take on from many sides on the issue. 

In fact you could say I'm overly wealthy in advice with some tricky decisions to wieght up.  

For now changing things drastically is going to be a problem, over all tank health vs colouration of cabomba is a no brainer.  

So lighting is going to continue to move up gradually.  In that time I'm going to start to think about fertiliser options and observe how light impacts growth over time until full power. 

So I have time to consider the advice given and can acknowledge all the kind advice offered over that time.  

You will be kept upto date with details of what's decided and altered over time.  

For now I've just woken from a short sleep after flying all day yesterday to a tank that needs TLC.  Please be patient whilst I gather my thoughts on the matter and appreciate I will acknowledge all advice also I will give it consideration over time.


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## milesjames (22 Aug 2022)

In regards to switching to daily dosing of FE well that's not really an issue.  

For now my thoughts were I'm going to just adjust my dosing by splitting what I do now into daily measurements. 

Not exactly what Plantnoobdude has said but a step in the right direction if absorption daily is required


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## Hanuman (22 Aug 2022)

milesjames said:


> In regards to switching to daily dosing of FE well that's not really an issue.
> 
> For now my thoughts were I'm going to just adjust my dosing by splitting what I do now into daily measurements.
> 
> Not exactly what Plantnoobdude has said but a step in the right direction if absorption daily is required


If you are dosing Fe Gluconate or whatever chelated iron in fact, it's best to do it daily before lights on and when water PH has already started to drop. Both types can degrade quite fast, specially with light/UV.


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## erwin123 (22 Aug 2022)

Seems that there is an issue of whether you actually got the correct stuff from the seller or whether there is a large amount of impurities etc. Obviously you want to get it from a reputable seller but with sellers like APFUK shutting down, its getting harder and harder to source for stuff in non-wholesale quantities...

In UKAPS I've been reading in other threads:

KCL unable to dissolve in water
0.1ppm of EDDHA-Fe turning the tank into a blackwater tank
etc....


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## dw1305 (22 Aug 2022)

Hi all,


milesjames said:


> My parents have been feeding the tank with shrimp and snail food not the flake in the cupboard.... The pellets are all over the top and if that's what they spilt god knows how much they put in!!!


Unfortunately I think <"a lot of us have been there">. I <"now put a minimal amount of food"> in date labelled containers and, so far, that has worked well.

cheers Darrel


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## Hanuman (22 Aug 2022)

Fish can actually go quite some time without eating. When I go on holiday for more than 3-4 days I usually just add 1 big wafer in the tank just before leaving and although they are meant for plecos and suckers, all fish will eat from it and it can last 2-3 days. Like this I don't need to ask anyone to feed my tank.


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## _Maq_ (22 Aug 2022)

Adult fishes can survive at least several weeks without feeding.


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## John q (22 Aug 2022)

milesjames said:


> For now my thoughts were I'm going to just adjust my dosing by splitting what I do now into daily measurements.


Whilst the discussion/banter in this thread has been interesting, and for me educational I think this is probably the best course of action for you at the minute. Concentrating on getting the tank back on track for the critters is far more important than experimenting for us casual onlookers.


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## milesjames (22 Aug 2022)

So thank you to those who were suggesting part of the reason for the cabomba's colouration was due to FE needing to be dosed daily. 

On revisiting the directions on my ferts this is recommended. So I will start doing this from today.  I will be increasing the FE to 0.45ppm daily.

Lighting I have decided to set a ramp up to a 2hr window full power on both lights.  I won't be increasing other ferts till this becomes a 4hr window which I'll look to do in about 2 weeks.  

I will post photos shortly,  I've given the tank a heavy trim and recent abuse its under gone most plants won't be showing there best; but spacing has been revealed in the background. I've also brought in the forground  plants in together so areas will appear more defined.


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## milesjames (22 Aug 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> Adult fishes can survive at least several weeks without feeding.


Hi _maq_ 

Yes I look forward to the day when all are mature.  The golden cloud minnows are a little young for it atm. 

I suppose on the plus side I now have gained the biggest unwanted clean up crew you have ever seen with the rams horns explosion!! 😂😂


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## plantnoobdude (22 Aug 2022)

milesjames said:


> today. I will be increasing the FE to 0.45ppm daily.


,0.45ppm daily? Typo? That is far too much for any tank. That’s over 3ppm weekly!


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## GreggZ (22 Aug 2022)

milesjames said:


> So thank you to those who were suggesting part of the reason for the cabomba's colouration was due to FE needing to be dosed daily.
> 
> On revisiting the directions on my ferts this is recommended. So I will start doing this from today.  I will be increasing the FE to 0.45ppm daily.


Miles I've never seen a tank that needs 0.45 ppm Fe daily. That is a good total amount for a week of Fe dosing. You could just split the 0.45 ppm into 7 doses and have plenty of iron for any plant that I know of.


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## milesjames (22 Aug 2022)

Hey guys,

Thank you apologies there maybe some poor maths in that statement 😑

Still not great with the calculation,  I'm looking to add:

5ml iron fert daily
Fe= 1% of 1 gram


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## John q (22 Aug 2022)

milesjames said:


> 8ml iron fert daily


Is this Seachem Flourish iron? If that's the case 8ml daily will add 0.73ppm. Hopefully I've got the wrong product.


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## milesjames (22 Aug 2022)

So post trim photos,  always the worst but we can't be showing our tanks only in peak health!! 






As you can see all have had a trim and the plant groups more defined. Spacing as mentioned is 2 finger widths, though this is a little tighter up front still. 





Rotala green you can see is still converting,  this area feels a little tight at the moment.  I have the gap to see the sp red through like I wanted but the macranda may need moving to give it more space or I may have to rethink the lotus. It would be a shame as do love the idea of the macrandra peeking through the lotus gaps. 

Any way I'll send through some stronger photos in when plants have recovered.  😊


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## Happi (23 Aug 2022)

@milesjames if i were you i would try the following, you can dose these together but split the doses into 3-4x week and dose your Macros on different days. are you also using Seachem product for N, P, K as well ? Seachem equilibrium or anything else? 

0.04 Mn as a weekly target using Seachem Flourish Trace:


Mn0.04B0.01318Co0.00014Cu0.01506Mo0.00141Ni0.00001Zn0.07953Rb0.00004V0.00001

*and*

0.4 Fe Gluconate as a weekly target using Seachem Flourish Trace:


Fe0.4


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## milesjames (25 Aug 2022)

So I'm going to put it out there encase some of the more strict Dutch scapers can fill me in.  

As far as I'm aware traditional 1930's dutch rules state that there should be no more than 3 plants per foot of aquarium.  This has been rightfully translated to being 1 plant per 10cms.  But does this mean 1 plant per 10cm2 or does it mean per 10cm length??


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## plantnoobdude (25 Aug 2022)

milesjames said:


> So I'm going to put it out there encase some of the more strict Dutch scapers can fill me in.
> 
> As far as I'm aware traditional 1930's dutch rules state that there should be no more than 3 plants per foot of aquarium.  This has been rightfully translated to being 1 plant per 10cms.  But does this mean 1 plant per 10cm2 or does it mean per 10cm length??


Per 10 Cm length
A 120 cm aquarium should have 10-15 species.


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## Freshflora (25 Aug 2022)

milesjames said:


> So I'm going to put it out there encase some of the more strict Dutch scapers can fill me in.
> 
> As far as I'm aware traditional 1930's dutch rules state that there should be no more than 3 plants per foot of aquarium.  This has been rightfully translated to being 1 plant per 10cms.  But does this mean 1 plant per 10cm2 or does it mean per 10cm length??


A different way to state the rule is 1 species per 1 decimeter of your front glass.  From one of the Dutch master’s guides - Dutch Style Aquarium. | Bart Laurens.


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## milesjames (27 Aug 2022)

So I've been a bit rash and made so significant alterations to setup (hardware) as well as some general daily cycle changes. 

I have made an alteration to the ferts but I will share this with you another day. As I don't want to jump the gun and start a discussion on this till I have more growth. 

So adjustments to setup I have bitten the bullet and doubled the lighting. These are now setup for a full daily setting of full spectrum 8hrs a day this is with my fluvel 3.0 and an additional cheaper led light source with 55w with 95% white, 10% blue, 10% red. 

I have zeroed in the co2 to accommodate for the lighting increase and to say I have good pearling daily would be an understatement. 

I noticed although the pearling was happening through out the tank it was mainly around the co2 diffuser so I Intially altered the trajectory of the spray bar to adjust the flow. This helped but I felt I could do better, so I have added an additional basic mini sump pump to increase the flow. I have done this 15cm from the substrate approx 10cm above co2 diffuser to hopefully this will improve distribution. 

This setup for now till I get a external filter with lilly pipe should do the job (bit hardware ugly) I will also look into a cheap waver maker in the future dependent on the external but I think I'll just go large on the filter to ensure the flow. 

Looking forward to sharing a picture update soon. As expected after the tank abuse the alternanthera reineckii mini has decided to melt older leaves and become a snail magnet. 

Got to love this plant for its dedication to being a great mineral deficiency indecator and all round pain after any issues a tank has been through!!


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## milesjames (29 Aug 2022)

Some cheaky new growth photos...


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## milesjames (31 Aug 2022)

I think I might need to rename the scape can't help myself so.... 

There has been quite a few paycheck purchases 😬 and moving plants to other tanks. 

Don't worry those who read for the cabomba that is still in... 

The plant number hasn't increased but there has been some changes and I have now switched to a canister filter, there are plant additions and ferts alterations. 

I'm typing this half way through planting and rearranging so will give full low down with photos after. 😁


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## milesjames (31 Aug 2022)

So plants added, removed and rearranged...

Plants removed:-
Pogostemon stellatus
Red tiger lotus

Plants added:-
heteranthera zosterifolia (star grass) (back left) 
Rotala indica red (back right) 

Plants moved:-
Rotala green (now front left)
Mayaca sellowiniana (replacing rotala green) 

Excuse the reflections and fresh water change bubbles etc. :






Will update as they grow in


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## milesjames (1 Sep 2022)

Sometimes it's nice to see your scape lit up in blue light. 😊


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## milesjames (6 Sep 2022)

Weekly photo update:
Finally letting the plants grow out a bit and  bush up a bit 😊


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## _Maq_ (7 Sep 2022)

Pics taken in the evening, most plants sleeping already.


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## milesjames (10 Sep 2022)

Hey @_Maq_ 
Yea shots were evening though do love seeing my aromatica under leaf in the shot 😊. 

I will be posting another one shortly just doing the weekly trim now. Sadly the dreaded Cyanobacteria has decided to join my lovely plants. 

Just debating on upping nitrogen or treating? 

What's your thoughts everyone do I treat and then start the bio load again on my filter with quick start. 

Or 

Up nitrogen with 4 doses of seachem nitrogen for a week?


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## _Maq_ (10 Sep 2022)

Hydrogen peroxide with pipette or syringe locally?


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## milesjames (10 Sep 2022)

I was think more erythromycin treatment for a week trouble is that it will kill all the bio filtration... 

I hear nitrogen deficiency is normally a cause and just adding more can balance things. 

@GreggZ thoughts??


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## milesjames (10 Sep 2022)

Also is a post trim shot never the best but you got to love the fresh shaping. Also some cheeky water dropped shots for some reflection. 😊











Also a little shot of the aromatica open. I have to say I'm quite proud of how it's coming in shape wise.


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## GreggZ (10 Sep 2022)

milesjames said:


> I was think more erythromycin treatment for a week trouble is that it will kill all the bio filtration...
> 
> I hear nitrogen deficiency is normally a cause and just adding more can balance things.
> 
> @GreggZ thoughts??


When it comes to BGA, IMO you don't want to mess around. It's not just how it gets on the plants, but when it's in the substrate it can start killing the root system. Get rid of it. I've used Chemiclean (Erythromcycin)  in the past with good results. I've never had any issue with it killing the bio field. 

As to Nitrogen, I have heard that too. I can tell you I have had it a few times over the years and NO3 was always pretty high (20+ ppm). I've never figured out the real cause. But no matter, once it's gone it usually does not come back for a good long time.


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## RLee2 (11 Sep 2022)

GreggZ said:


> When it comes to BGA, IMO you don't want to mess around. It's not just how it gets on the plants, but when it's in the substrate it can start killing the root system. Get rid of it. I've used Chemiclean (Erythromcycin)  in the past with good results. I've never had any issue with it killing the bio field.
> 
> As to Nitrogen, I have heard that too. I can tell you I have had it a few times over the years and NO3 was always pretty high (20+ ppm). I've never figured out the real cause. But no matter, once it's gone it usually does not come back for a good long time.


I have used "Chemiclean" as well and it takes care of BGA quickly. Funny thing though it says right on the package  " Does not contain Erythromycin succinate, well whatever it contains it works.


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## GreggZ (11 Sep 2022)

RLee2 said:


> I have used "Chemiclean" as well and it takes care of BGA quickly. Funny thing though it says right on the package  " Does not contain Erythromycin succinate, well whatever it contains it works.


Yeah I have seen that and many places that say it's basically Erythromycin. Who knows? I do know that it works very well.


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## milesjames (11 Sep 2022)

Well I got a bga specific brand to get rid of it, quite good actually comes with a needle nose syringe to do the substrate. 😊


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## milesjames (11 Sep 2022)

Something a little different:
I visited my parents house to find the tank I scaped for them in tatters... 








Think I can safely assume the weekly water change has not occurred for some time. 😑 Need to make a fully automated setup for them.


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## milesjames (14 Sep 2022)

Another fun evening shot for the giggles 😊






Love aromatica under this light 😁


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## milesjames (16 Sep 2022)

The beast that is growing perfectly shaped 😁


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## _Maq_ (16 Sep 2022)

@milesjames , I like your _Hygrophila lancea_. In my low-tech, it lives but grows terribly slowly.


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## milesjames (16 Sep 2022)

@_Maq_ 

Cheers it is growing in well through its a tough one to control its like no other plant I've work with. Like trying to control the direction of spaghetti. 

Its getting a bit of a beating atm tho from the Cyanobacteria. The treatment I chose is definitely not the most efficient 😒


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## milesjames (23 Sep 2022)

When your wallatchi looks like this:-




Your scape looks like this:-



But you got a serious issue rising 😬 which is stubborn and won't respond to treatment. 



It would hurt to go to the extreme of a black out 😔


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## _Maq_ (23 Sep 2022)

milesjames said:


> Need to make a fully automated setup for them.


I want to be your parent!


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## milesjames (23 Sep 2022)

Lol yes I think it is the only way I'm going to get them to maintain a scape for long enough 😂 feels like they invite me round just to display what a mess they have made of it 😂😂


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## milesjames (24 Sep 2022)

So even with all the issues my plant addiction has hit again...

I only popped into the lfs for co2 and left with myriophyllum tuberculatum bunches 😂😂😂

Now I'm sorry to the cabomba peeps but it was just not thriving, additionally the star grass although nice really threw my eye composition wise.

So hear is the new addition, it will be a pain whilst it settles with the melt but it definitely a better choice for what I'm going for.


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## milesjames (2 Oct 2022)

So some after treatment and trim shots. 

Trying to thin out the aromatica so it can keep the hieght whilst not shading out the wallatchi and sp red. Not my prittiest work if I'm honest. Thinking I may have to shape the aromatica again today and trim the wallatchi as they feel very rough shape wise. 

Anyway let me know what you guys think of the scape so far 😊


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## Chrispowell (2 Oct 2022)

A 4 day blackout has sorted bga for me in the past, it never returns after this either.


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## erwin123 (2 Oct 2022)

I like the 'street' of AR Mini that starts at the front and leads the eye to the back... but it sort of ends abruptedly with a bunch of too-tall Wallichii? I would want something that transitions more 'smoothly' after the AR Mini ends?


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## milesjames (2 Oct 2022)

erwin123 said:


> I like the 'street' of AR Mini that starts at the front and leads the eye to the back... but it sort of ends abruptedly with a bunch of too-tall Wallichii? I would want something that transitions more 'smoothly' after the AR Mini ends?


Hi Erwin I agree it sort creates a weird void in the middle. The original plan was to have the cardinalis become tall enough to make the road disappear, but after the 1 year of keeping it (it came from a previous tank) I realise it will never be tall enough to do so. 

Since this post I have trimmed the wallatchi to the hieght of the rotala for health reasons and mushroom trimmed the aromatica, but the balance is definitely off in this section.


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## milesjames (2 Oct 2022)

I'm temped to move the sp red to the wallatchi position and spread the mayaca across to cover this point and the lower area of the aromatica. 

Its a beautiful plant and it is highly under used in the scape. 

Thoughts?


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## milesjames (5 Oct 2022)

So interesting development 🤔 the myriophyllum tuberculatum I bought appears to be turning green. At first I thought it was just a bit of algea from its shredding but nope I'm pritty confident it is turning green due to lighting not being optimum for this plant.
Thoughts?  @erwin123 @_Maq_ @Freshflora @GreggZ


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## Freshflora (5 Oct 2022)

milesjames said:


> So interesting development 🤔 the myriophyllum tuberculatum I bought appears to be turning green. At first I thought it was just a bit of algea from its shredding but nope I'm pritty confident it is turning green due to lighting not being optimum for this plant.
> Thoughts?  @erwin123 @_Maq_ @Freshflora @GreggZ
> View attachment 195381


Never grown it, so not quite sure what’s going on.  At first glance though it does look like algae to me, so I’d confirm for sure that it isn’t first.  A look at the Barr Report’s plant profile on it says Tuberculatum will maintain its color even in medium lighting, but again I haven’t grown it so I can’t say for sure.


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## Hufsa (5 Oct 2022)

milesjames said:


> So interesting development 🤔 the myriophyllum tuberculatum I bought appears to be turning green. At first I thought it was just a bit of algea from its shredding but nope I'm pritty confident it is turning green due to lighting not being optimum for this plant.
> Thoughts?  @erwin123 @_Maq_ @Freshflora @GreggZ
> View attachment 195381


Looks a lot like the beginning of cyanobacteria to me. The very intense green color is a giveaway. Peculiar place to have cyano tho


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## erwin123 (6 Oct 2022)

you probably got the entire stem in submersed form, but the water parameters in the previous tank are different from your current tank. so what happens is that the plant is in the process of converting, and the plant may put all its energy towards this conversion (i.e. growing new leaves), therefore, the old leaves are "weak" and become algae magnets?

I haven't grown tuberculatum either but I have M. 'Roraima'/'red stem' in my tank which is probably close enough - and I did have some algae on the older leaves but the new growth is fine.


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## GreggZ (6 Oct 2022)

You sure it's turning green? From the picture I agree with above it looks like some type of algae.

Myrio's like that generally don't turn green. And if it did for some reason it would usually start at the tops. It looks like this runs down the stem a bit and the lower part of the stems do not look well. It just seems like it's not happy and perky like it should be. Looks like something is missing?


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## milesjames (6 Oct 2022)

Cheers all 😊 thought I'd ask as it is a bit strange as when I try to remove the green it's stubbern. The nutrition parameters are good all round. I know I'm going to get "but that so expensive" in compared to salts" but I'm following the full ei approach with the flourish range so the nutrition is good. 

I reckon it's old leaves getting the algea treatment or Cyanobacteria taking advange of a tall stem. Turns out in the uk all bga treatments are very weak as the good stuff is illegal over here. 

I need to give it its first top and replant this weekend so will do that first and monitor. If I'm getting the same I'll have to do a 4 day blackout to see if it's just Cyanobacteria. 

Cheers all I will keep you posted!!


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## milesjames (8 Oct 2022)

Moody pre-trim shot 😊


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## milesjames (9 Oct 2022)

So.... As most following this will know I'm a "bit" commited to ensuring this scape comes together perfectly. With the composition trumping any hardcore dutch rules around number of plants.

This paragraph is what I'm sticking with as my excuse for the new additions and not just my addiction to making improvements and adding new plants. 😂

So 2 new plant additions and a currently poorly applied background.

Plants:-
-helanthium bolivianum (central point golden ratio) 
-hygrophila polysperma (between rotala's to break the dominance of the myriophyllum tuberculatum) 

Photos following..


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## milesjames (9 Oct 2022)

Plants are not at final heights looking forward to them growing in further 😊


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## plantnoobdude (9 Oct 2022)

milesjames said:


> View attachment 195530
> View attachment 195532
> View attachment 195533
> 
> Plants are not at final heights looking forward to them growing in further 😊


Tank looks really great, but how long does that co2 tank last😮😮 looks tiny.


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## milesjames (9 Oct 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Tank looks really great, but how long does that co2 tank last😮😮 looks tiny.


Hey Plantnoobdude, 

How funny you should ask the co2 is on a 95gr system atm. During the grow in period it was lasting 4 weeks but that has gradually been coming down. 

Because I can't quite go full on with a proper fire extinguisher style system due to costs. I have bought an adaptor today to upgrade to a 800gr tank. Hoping with the new system when the tank is fitted to last about 3 months. 

Will update you when fitted. 😊


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## milesjames (15 Oct 2022)

Well here is a bugger of a problem to have....

So I'm loving the whole h'ra turn orange, wallatchi getting its red tips and rotala red getting richer, with what is clearly a on the edge nitrate level, but the hydrophila is following suit 🙄 getting deep greens whilst working with the other two is becoming a challenge...




Not to mention this tank is becoming a bit of a nitrate beast. I've given it 3 times what I used to dose...


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## milesjames (16 Oct 2022)

So I've finally spent enough time to do some proper trimming. Always a sad time but things were suffering and twisting with the density. 






Now on review there is a number of plants not working for me in this tank:-
-helanthium bolivianum 
-hygrophila polysperma 
-ludwigia sp red

Two are the new ones and I could ride it out to see if they grow in better but I feel the colours need to be cool greens. Going to get a shift on to fine something to replace or rearrange into these spots.


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## Hufsa (16 Oct 2022)

Not sure how high light it can take but a very nice cool almost minty green is Schismatoglottis prietoi, it stands out in my tank because of the special green hue. Recommended if you're looking for something to balance a lot of yellows


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## milesjames (20 Oct 2022)

So after much much much debate over cool green plants I have gone with @Hufsa suggestion of schismatoglottis prietoi.

Its rounder leaves are exactly what I needed for the scape without getting some thing too large. 

There is another plant to be added currently unsure on it as its a bit similar leaf and colour wise so I'll hold off saying till I've finished the planting. 😊😊


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## milesjames (25 Oct 2022)

So I've had to hack the aromatica back as its health was deteriorating, but here is the scape so far. Alot of grow in time still needed but the composition has improved I feel with the adaptions. 

Currently I'm working on making the scape gain a bit more of a natural feel. Till now I felt it was very architectural as a scape and that fit the dutch style. After much more review of the style I recognise that scapes need to meet that subtle blend between natural and controlled to be truly on point. 

Current efforts are now focused on how to make the forground work so that it maintains the Dutch distancing between plants whilst ensuring that it doesn't feel too unnatural whilst enhancing the distance. 

Scape so far excuse some plant health as a trim was completed yesterday:-






I will post more shots in next post 😊


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## erwin123 (25 Oct 2022)

To my untrained eye, the tank is looking more and more 'Dutch-like' though Dutch experts may disagree


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## milesjames (25 Oct 2022)

So here is some purely aesthetic shots:-


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## Hufsa (25 Oct 2022)

Nice!
The S. prietoi fits in perfectly too I think


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## milesjames (27 Oct 2022)

A few mood shots on my favourite evening lighting setting 😊


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## milesjames (30 Oct 2022)

So a frustrating update my new co2 cylinder lasted... 3 days. The converter cut through an o ring in the valve so it's slow leaked and is now empty. So ordered a replacement o ring from columbo 🤞 this sorts all and prevents another expensive problem. 

In other news I have got my hands on a nice camera to show true colours and to give a better view of the scape. See photos in next post 😊


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## milesjames (30 Oct 2022)




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## GreggZ (30 Oct 2022)

Nice! You are really getting somewhere. It's fun following along on this journey. Keep the updates coming.


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## milesjames (5 Nov 2022)

So I've let the tank do its thing for 2 weeks and now it's time to get it back to some order. I'm going to do the big trim later today and fixing of the spacings. Thought it be fun to do a before and after shot, as I rarely let things run with out trimming for over a week. So here is the tank currently:-






The rotala h'ra has really taken off over this time and although I some how love its dominance, this beast needs to be tamed. 😂

Fresh trim photos coming later today 😊

Happy water change and maintenance day all!! 🙌


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## milesjames (5 Nov 2022)

So after much trimming!!

Here is the scape:-






As you can see there has been some removal and a new shaping of the rotala. I'm hoping it will grow in to not have as much of a distinct shape and it will have more of a smooth ripple to it.

I am edging ever closer to having the correct number of plants. Though I'm sure I will find a way to change that as it progresses 😜

Will update as things progress 😊


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## milesjames (5 Nov 2022)

So it would turn out aquascaping does not come without its elements of risk....

My new co2 cylinder was not fitted with the safety o ring so when I attached my regulator the darn thing went off like a fire extinguisher and I had to throw it in the garden!!!








Here is a picture of my original cylinder with safety ring...





So those using colombo co2 products beware check your cylinder before use; because I can tell you when the thing is going off in your front living room it's not much fun lol.


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## milesjames (6 Nov 2022)

So I'm never one to leave things be if there is an issue and given the co2 deaster of yesterday I felt probably best to bite the bullet and sort out a safer longer term option.

At least that is what I'm telling myself and my better half. So I have bought a jbl 500 with regulator.




I've fitted it with an extra long hose so it hides nicely under the main unit. (In truth this makes the whole setup look much nicer)





The observant of you will notice there has been an addition to the tank. I always wanted to put a narrow leaf fern in the scape somewhere as I just think the detail they bring is awesome. 

So I have added a narrow leaf trident fern to the rear. It will need to be protected from the stems particularly the aromatica that will come from the right. Spacing atm appear tight but it actually it is spaced 2 fingers distance from all so should keep it definition as the scape grows in. 

There will be the usual "for the beauty" pics in the next post. Though will need to get the better camera on it soon to give you all a proper look.


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## milesjames (6 Nov 2022)

Pics as promised let me know what you all think😊


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## milesjames (27 Nov 2022)

So....... 
Was chatting with the better half about the scape and about Bart Lauren's work. 

His scapes have been a bit of a fascination of mine of late as his use of space makes his compositions look fantastic. He follows pritty strict Dutch rules and uses classic plants. 

Now given the tank has been looking great of late I have been frustrated with the composition. I was happy with the left side minus the trident fern experiment, but the right always plagued me. The lobelia cardinalis was 2 years old and looked tired the transition from front to back seemed harsh and compact. Nothing was really giving it that feel of controlled natural elegance. 

So after discussions I have attempted some thing new, Bart Lauren's inspired as my wife wanted a sand substrate and we'll I couldn't resist. 

Now not all new things are good and to be honest at the moment the scape feels a little odd. In fact I'm not all convinced by any of my decisions so far as it feels alien to be working in this way. 

Additionally with nothing being grown in or trimmed to my usual level it just is well under whelming. 

I have no doubt in time I will be hard at work changing things around adding different plants to ballance things and removing the darn soil from the top layer. For now I'm going to let things settle as I'm scaped out for the day but photos are on the next post for an update.


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## milesjames (27 Nov 2022)




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## milesjames (2 Dec 2022)

Time for an update so after a week of fiddling I think I've been able to bring together a composition that will grow in nicely. Alot of rule breaking aside it should look nice as the scape progresses. Since adding one plant I realise it is not what I thought it was (lfs I went to regularly miss labels or staff give wrong name) if any one could help me out with what it is, it would be much appreciated. Its the plant in the final photo my best guess is ludwigia repens rubin. Anyways here is the new arrangement:-


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## milesjames (9 Dec 2022)

Photo update some chilled photos prior trim tomorrow 😊









I've aquired some earth magnets as well so will be sorting the lose soil. 😊


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## milesjames (17 Dec 2022)

So there has been alot of mistakes since my last post. All avoidable but as we all know this hobby is never short of issues to over come. Here are some shots of where we are at, with new plants starting to grow in well. The mystery plant was ludwigia marilia so colour  balance of tank is a little off. I may still remove/replace some of the new choices. As I have a couple of tanks needing and I feel some are ruining the depth. 










Please excuse the untidy nature at the moment I haven't found time to do a full tidy of the scape including using the earth magnets to remove loose soil.


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## milesjames (18 Dec 2022)




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## milesjames (19 Dec 2022)




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## milesjames (23 Dec 2022)




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## milesjames (26 Dec 2022)

Playing with lighting #nofilter 😁


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## milesjames (1 Jan 2023)

Little new years update:-












Quite a bit of growing in to do still top left im still unsure about. 

Happy New year all!!


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