# Hobgoblin's Cave 240L



## naughtymoose (10 Feb 2015)

This is my first attempt at a big tank, and my first attempt at a 'proper' aquascape.

I'll call it 'Hobgoblin's Cave' because I like Hobgoblin beer.. and I might have to have a secret emergency stash of it hidden below the tank!

*Starting Specs:*

Fluval Roma 240L
Fluval 306 filter x 2
Filter intakes using the two holes in the bottom of the tank
Spray bars across the back
Fluval 107cm, 40w tubes x2
Fluval E300 heater by filter intakes
B&Q Verve Aquatic Compost
B&Q Play-pit Sand
Black fine gravel (looks like PAH stuff)
Lava rock
Sumatra driftwood from Maidenhead Aquatics
*Intended:*

Heavily planted, dry start method
Dosing using APF starter kit
CO2 using FE and 2x inline diffusers
Blue LED light for transition to Moonlight
Possible bright LED for a short period (high noon tank time)
Possible red LED bubble disc thingy to blow off the CO2 at night (might stick this in the cave)
*Fauna:*

Norman's Lampeyes (Apolocheilicthys normani)
Dwarf Neon Rainbowfish (Melantoaenia praecox)
Otocinclus sp.
Ember Tetras (Hyphessobrycon amandae)
Corydoras sp.
Shrimps (possibly)
*Flora:*

*Ferns etc*
Anubias nana
Microsorium pteropus 'Java Fern'
Microsorium pteropus 'Windelov'


*Stems etc*
Rotala Wallichi (Red, background, difficult- may need more light)
Hygrophila rosaeaustralis
Hygrophila corymbosa 'angustifolia'
Didipils diandra


*Moss*
Weeping moss
Caloglossa beccarii (red moss)
Fissidens
Flame


*Carpets*
Hemianthus callitrichoides 'Cuba' 'Baby Tears'
Eleocharis sp. 'Mini'
Sagittaria subulata
Glossostigma elatinoides


*Foreground etc*
Pogostemon helferi
Alternathera reineckii 'mini' (red)
Alternanthera reineckii 'rosaefolia'
Cryptocoryne nurii 'Rosen Maiden' (just bought from alanyusupov)

*Problems:*

I'm not working due to long-term illness (CFS/ME & Fibromyalgia) and need something to keep me occupied and relatively sane
Progress will be at the 'Dead Slow' rate due to a combination of this and also funding issues
My partner isn't interested...
I've also been given a 130L 88cm tank to scape...
*Shameless beg*

If anyone has any useful cuttings/plants that they could send my way for beer money, I'd really appreciate it.
*Suggestions/help*

Please offer criticism/advice/suggestions. All welcomed and needed!


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## kirk (10 Feb 2015)

Hi, sorry to hear of your illnesses, my mom has fibro so I know what your going through. The tank will help you relax and somthing you can enjoy when your not having a good day and cheer you up.  As for your arrangement ( hob cave).

I like what you've done so far. Are you going for a twisty path?


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## Tim Harrison (10 Feb 2015)

I'm sorry to hear about your illness too...but perhaps the slow rate of progress will be a blessing in disguise...give you plenty of time to get things right. And good start as well by the way. I'll look forward to updates no matter how long there is between them...


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## naughtymoose (10 Feb 2015)

Thanks chaps

Kirk, I've been thinking about a twisty path in light coloured sand; the dark fine gravel is going to be used as a base for flora.

Troi, is it a good idea to put my base soil over the entire area of the tank, even underneath the rocks? I can afford to lift them by 50mm anyway, but should I use a lava rock 'packer' or just use my soil?


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## Tim Harrison (11 Feb 2015)

IME it doesn't really matter that much, especially if the soil layer is less than 50mm thick...so do what is most convenient for you.


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## naughtymoose (15 Feb 2015)

Just a few random notes on the set-up phase:




Treated myself to a pint!




Testing for water-tightness. Use of a clip-on extension lead is not recommended...




Painted back and right side with several coats of black emulsion.




I used the box from the cabinet to start playing around with the hardscape.




Satisfied with my efforts, I let the Hobgoblin out!




Next, I used some carpet underlay to protect the glass base while I started to scape.




I bagged up some lava rock in net bags (I cut the zips off first) to add a bit of a contour.




Then I covered the base in the B&Q Verve Aquatic Compost. This has been festering away for about two months, topped up every now and then with water, as suggested by Clive.




I covered the base in windbreak fabric and then started to lay down the hardscape. The white things in the left corner are plastic tooth picks, which I used to hold two bits of the fabric together after I cut it wrong.



 

 



 
Inserting cardboard formers to separate the sand from the gravel, and placed the first tree.




It will be a while before I can put any fish in, so I put my trusty wooden kissing fish in for effect.


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## naughtymoose (15 Feb 2015)

DOH! I had a major brain fog incident... 

Just realised that having washed the gravel that was given to me by a friend, and sieving the majority of the snail shells out from it, I didn't wash the nice black sand that I went and bought! (I also bought a big bag, and could have got away with less than half)

Will it be a good idea to get the majority of the sand out with my old DeWalt vac and wash it before doing anything else?


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## alto (16 Feb 2015)

Drop a handful in a bucket & see how many "fines" are there ... if the water settles clear in a couple minutes there's no reason to rinse.

It looks like you'll have decent filtration so you can always just let them do the "clearing"


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## naughtymoose (19 Feb 2015)

So I ended up rinsing the sand.

I also moved stuff about a bit, and consequently disturbed some pond compost that I'd filled gaps with. Ho-hum. Lesson learned...

Then I planted some _Blyxa japonica _obtained from Konrad (many thanks)

The stuff in the bag is Rotala rotundifolia 'Green', also from Konrad, which I intend to deal with in the morning.

I have Flame Moss to attach to the left fallen tree. I also got quite a bit of Weeping Moss, which I think may be good on the middle tree. The tree on the right I'm hoping to spot some Red Moss on.

I might splash out on a bulb of Crinum calamistratum to go behind the Blyxa, in front of the inlet pipes.


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## Wisey (20 Feb 2015)

I like the beer based naming convention, I'm not sure where I would start if I went down that route, so many beers!


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## naughtymoose (23 Feb 2015)

Did a bit more to the tank yesterday.

Tied some _Vesicularia ferriei _'Weeping Moss' on to the bit of wood above the cave. I have to say that I found this to be incredibly fiddly as my fingers don't always work properly. Not sure if I tied the moss on correctly, but it doesn't seem to have floated off!


 

Not sure if I'm going to cover this tree in moss, or leave it bare. I have some _Caloglossa beccarii, _Red Moss, which I might try and make into a birds' nest.


 

Planted some more _Blyxa japonica _(thanks Konrad); attached some _Bolbitis heudelotii _(thanks Eduard Gercog). Also added some _Hygrophila rosae australis _and some _Vallisneria americana_ from my smaller tank. The _Elodea densa_ is just there temporarily to help the tank start working.


 
The silver heater along the back wall is temporary too. I've just been experimenting with water changing issues and am able to keep it on whilst doing my 50% WC. Eventually, I'll use a 100L slimline water butt on a stool, suspend the heater in it overnight and then pump the water into the tank using a pond pump. I also intend to use the pump to empty the tank before the water change.

My sandy beach/path isn't looking good. There will be a bit of maintenance to do on this.

At present, I've just got one of the 306's connected but hopefully will get the pipes and crooks for the spray bars this weekend.


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## naughtymoose (11 Mar 2015)

An update. Progress is slow!

Fitted the two spray bars when I installed the second Fluval 306. Note: I had to superglue the end caps as they kept shooting off the spray bar. The 306's are at about half power, but circulation seems good. I cut the ugly light grey rubber fittings off the end of the Fluval ribbed hose in the tank too. Why on earth they use such a bright rubber is beyond me.

Fitted a second-hand JBL DC. Not sure if I will be going down the CO2 route now; cost is an issue, so it may have to wait a while.

Was given a big wodge of Vallis for a background, but mrs moose didn't like the effect of the overhanging leaves, so I had to cut them back.

Added some Cabomba, Anubias, Hygrophila rosae australis, moved the Rotala, Cryptocoryne cryspatula 'Balansae', Pogostemon stellata, Pogostemon helferi, Eleocharis aciculata, E. sp. 'Mini', Alternanthera reineckii 'Mini', Vallisneria spiralis (at the right), Cryptocoryne petchii, Cryptocoryne moehimani.

I've got some Heteranthera zosterifolia and also some Hydrocotyle verticillata to plant too. The first may go bottom right, and be kept trimmed low. The H.v. may go at the mid point.  Also, I moved the wood about a bit, and may even turn the tree around.

I'm not sure if my choice of plants will all suit non-CO2, so advice is welcomed.

There is a definite temperature gradient from right to left, dropping by almost 2 degrees C. Should I be particularly worried?


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## Akwaskape (18 Mar 2015)

Its looking very nice, how long you been doing planted tanks for?.


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## naughtymoose (18 Mar 2015)

Err... this is it!

I actually have a 40L that I started in October 2014 (my 'birthday' tank) which I had some plants in, but that doesn't really count. This is my very steep learning curve!


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## Akwaskape (18 Mar 2015)

Oh nice looks great so far


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## Another Phil (18 Mar 2015)

Hi Naughtymoose,


naughtymoose said:


> There is a definite temperature gradient from right to left, dropping by almost 2 degrees C. Should I be particularly worried?


 
I personally wouldn't worry as it would allow the fish to thermo-regulate unless they always stay at one end.
It's possible the 2 filters are causing 2 gyres which are staying separate ( a bit like the Earth's atmosphere circulating in northern and southern hemispheres without a lot of crossing over the equator), although having both outtakes on the same side will lessen this.
Assuming the heater is still at the back can you move it slightly to the cooler side?

If the above is the case you might find CO2 distribution problematic though.
cheers phil


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## Akwaskape (18 Mar 2015)

Have you got 2 intakes as well?


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## Akwaskape (18 Mar 2015)

If so swap them si one draws from the hot end and pumps out into the cooler end its what i done


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## naughtymoose (19 Mar 2015)

Hi folks
Phil, as you say, there are two areas of activity, left-hand side and right. The filter inlets are both at the rear right, and are fixed because they are holes in the tank bottom.

I put the heater next to the inlets in the belief that the water would be heated as it passes into the filters. The fish don't appear to be concerned, and I'm sure that these sort of temperature gradients exist naturally, so I'm not overly concerned.

I had been hoping to get a CO2 system, but don't think I can justify the expense (I'm on long-term sick). I'm also setting up a second (80cm/110L) tank to house some Rainbowfish, so will have a bit of expense there.

Not sure if all my plants are totally suitable for non-CO2, but I am dosing about 6ml of glut daily, so this should be helping.


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## Akwaskape (19 Mar 2015)

Rainbowfish sounds interesting, ive got 6 pairs of wenerii (threadfin) in the wings waiting for their new home. Hopefully I'll have it up and running in about 4-6 weeks. I've also got 7 german line bred male boesemani in my show tank My 'beefy boes' lol love them. Re the heat yeah its easy to get hung up on irrelevant details in this hobby. Happy fish, pretty tank what more is there


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## dw1305 (19 Mar 2015)

Hi all,





Akwaskape said:


> ive got 6 pairs of wenerii (threadfin) in the wings waiting for their new home


Can I ask where you got them from? I haven't seen any females for sale for a long time.

cheers Darrel


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## Akwaskape (19 Mar 2015)

Hi Darrel (soz auto correct edited)
no problem, the only place to buy fish in london/essex and that's Wayside Aquatics in Doddinghurst.  Just outside Brentwood.
I've seen pfk staff buy freshwater fish while I've been in there.
James the proprietor is a bit of a legend.
He's got a very comprehensive website (won't ship fish and rarely stocks wild or non local ie outside of Europe) but if you want something special he's always on the end of the phone.
And his stock is stunning
ill send you a pic of some boes he sourced from Germany for me. If I can work out how lol


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## dw1305 (19 Mar 2015)

Hi all, 





Akwaskape said:


> no problem, the only place to buy fish in london/essex and that's Wayside Aquatics in Doddinghurst. Just outside Brentwood. I've seen pfk staff buy freshwater fish while I've been in there. James the proprietor is a bit of a legend.
> He's got a very comprehensive website (won't ship fish and rarely stocks wild or non local ie outside of Europe) but if you want something special he's always on the end of the phone. And his stock is stunning.


Lovely job, I had a look at the web site, and the statement at the bottom of the fish page <"http://www.waysideaquatics.co.uk/epages/es785997.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/es785997/Categories/Tropical_Fish_Stocklist">, is definitely what you want, "_a fish-keeper with a shop_", rather than "_a shop-keeper with fish_". 





Akwaskape said:


> ill send you a pic of some boes he sourced from Germany for me.


 Very nice, lovely colours.  Although the _Pseudomugil (signifer?)_ are more my size.

Unfortunately it isn't an area of the UK I ever visit now.




cheers Darrel


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## Akwaskape (19 Mar 2015)

@dw1305 Thanks 
(*Furcatus)


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## naughtymoose (24 Mar 2015)

Tidied up a bit. The PF1 filter is just a temporary guest- I'm keeping it running until I start my 120L tank project.

Planted some (Murdannia keisak) behind the tree/cave. I rather like it. Also, some (Hydrocotyle verticillata) in the middle rear, (Heteranthera zosterifolia) in front of the Blyxa on the right front. Added the (Fissidens fontanus) on a bit of lava rock at the entrance to the cave.

All the fish are settling in nicely too!


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## naughtymoose (2 Apr 2015)

Today I doubled the number of 3mm holes in the spray bars. Every time I turned the power up on the two filters it caused massive substrate disturbance. Now I am able to run both at full power without disturbing the sand at the front.

I've noticed new growth sprouting here and there. Soon I shall be using EI, rather than Profito (Just want to use it up before I buy the EI). I've been adding the occasional JBL Ferrotab as well.

The Vallis really doesn't seem to like the glute, and is showing signs of melt.

I'm getting BBA, particularly on the mosses. The horrid red moss (slime) has been removed. At present, I'm dosing 6ml of glute and 3ml of Profito daily.

Any suggestions folks?


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## Rob Dahl (2 Apr 2015)

naughty moose you are doing a fine job and describing the various steps I find very interesting. Thanks so much.


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## karla (4 Apr 2015)

Vallis can be a pain sometimes anyway, sometimes it will hardly grow and melts looks awful etc other times it just grows like crazy and takes over the tank. I think you have done an amazing job it looks really nice, I love the layout and plant choice as well. Keep posting pics.


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## naughtymoose (15 Apr 2015)

Just recently I've found that plants have been melting/dying. Lots of the Blyxa has had it, most of the Rotala, the P. stellata, E. sp. 'Mini', Alternanthera reineckii 'Mini' as well.

I'm starting with Ei salts today, which I shall mix with water and dose daily. I've invested in CO2 kit and will be using an inline diffuser through the left spray bar. When funds permit, I shall add a second inline diffuser, to the bar on the right.

I wish I hadn't used the gravel. It is quite a nuisance as it mixes in with the sand. A job for me soon will be to remove as much as possible and replace with the spare black sand that I have.

I lost one fish, Sparky the M. praecox; she was actually raised from an egg that came attached to a piece of bogwood. A bit disappointing, but it means I can change the plan for the other tank that I got hold of recently. More on that in my other journal (starting soon)


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## naughtymoose (15 Apr 2015)

A couple of pictures of hair algae that has been causing some problems


 



I've used a small bottle brush to get rid of as much as I can, but I've had to remove what was left of the Eleocharis aciculata 'Mini', as it was just smothered.


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## Rob Dahl (16 Apr 2015)

Naughtymoose, have you tried covering the tank with a black plastic bag for three/four days. It certainly dealt my algae an almost complete blow– I haven't had any real problems since.


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## naughtymoose (16 Apr 2015)

Thanks Rob. I'm addressing it now with the solution from http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm

I'll be doing a big WC, some maintenance, installing the CO2 and dosing EI.

I'll also be twirling my bottle brush about a bit more!


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## naughtymoose (16 Apr 2015)

Today, my plans went south big time! I was going to do the CO2 etc.

I couldn't get the Fluval ribbed pipe to attach to the inline diffuser properly. I'll have to buy some 16/22mm pipe and re-plumb the filter on the LHS.

Time to start my other thread!


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## MedicMan (17 Apr 2015)

naughtymoose said:


> I'll have to buy some 16/22mm pipe



Hmm, you shouldn't have to. When I attached my Inline diffuser onto the Fluval 406 tubing I just ordered one of these : 

Fluval Rubber Adapter (A20017) from Ebay. Did the job fine with no leaks that I could see.


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## naughtymoose (18 Apr 2015)

Doh! I was trying to get the pipe (which has a 15mm internal/19mm external) in to the rubber extension joint that came with the spray bar... which is 12/15!!! No wonder it wouldn't fit.

A trip to our LFS yielded no result, so I've ordered from ebay. Should be here for Tuesday.

Well reminded MedicMan!


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## naughtymoose (21 Apr 2015)

The Fluval adapter thingy arrived today. As MedicMan said, it was easy peasy to fit. Of course, you have to remember to keep the hose (which is full of 
water) above the level of the tank as you fit it.

I eventually located the bubble counter that I'd bought. After pulling loads of stuff out of boxes and emptying cupboards, I eventually found it hanging in the clip, screwed to the inside of the back of the cabinet. The resultant injury to my finger caused when cutting the tubing to the required length was minor and didn't need stitching, but did leave a bit of claret here and there!

After getting the CO2 set up, I discovered that the bit of tubing was the wrong sort. Somehow, I have managed to throw away the bit of CO2 tubing that I had bought, but kept the bit of thin airline tubing instead. More tubing is on the way courtesy of CO2 Supermarket.

We also did a bit of an overhaul of the scape. I removed the vast majority of the horrid gravel using a tea strainer; this was then tipped into a jug held by my missus. It took ages but was worthwhile. I then used a bit of 40mm pipe and poured some sand down it on to the base of the tank. Eventually, the tank cleared...

I'll be replanting tomorrow.


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## Andy D (22 Apr 2015)

I look forward to the pictures.


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## Rob Dahl (22 Apr 2015)

I too anticipate the results.


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## naughtymoose (22 Apr 2015)

Using the tube to add sand after removing gravel.I tried this before with a thinner tube, but it just clogged up. Using the 40mm tube works really well.


 

After replacing almost all the visible gravel and moving some plants about:


 

I also moved the Interpet PF1 to the RHS. I'm keeping this with the venturi switched on, because I like the effect. Interestingly, the fish seem to like it too!

CO2 pipe is coming tomorrow, and I'll fit it to the left spray bar. I've found a place local to me that supplies clear pvc tube that will fit the Fluval pipes. At the moment, my plan is to have two 1m bars across the back; the pipe is supplied in 2m lengths, so this is perfect. The LHS bar will have the CO2 through it. If I decide to have an in-line heater, I can put that through the RHS bar.


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## Rob Dahl (22 Apr 2015)

That pipe trick is a neat solution to adding substrate. Didn't know about that. Thanks


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## naughtymoose (22 Apr 2015)

It needs to be a decent diameter Rob! I tried it some time ago with a bit of half-inch pipe. As I lifted it clear of the tank, all the sand unclogged and spewed out all over the place...

My next bit of DIY problem solving is going to be a diffuser for the WC pipe so that the incoming water doesn't create a maelstrom in the tank...


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## Rob Dahl (22 Apr 2015)

Thanks Moose, I'll keep that in mind. Unfortunately I have no experience with diffusers other than the ceramic disc ones.


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## naughtymoose (22 Apr 2015)

I'm going to use a piece of pipe and fit a push-fit stop-end on it. Then I'll drill some holes in the pipe and shove that into the piece of hosepipe that I use to fill the tank with when I do my WC.

It will be just like a spray bar really. The flow of the water will be diffused through the many holes of the pipe, which will hopefully stop all the sand getting churned up.


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## Rob Dahl (23 Apr 2015)

Sounds good


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## Crossocheilus (24 Apr 2015)

naughtymoose said:


> I'm going to use a piece of pipe and fit a push-fit stop-end on it. Then I'll drill some holes in the pipe and shove that into the piece of hosepipe that I use to fill the tank with when I do my WC.
> 
> It will be just like a spray bar really. The flow of the water will be diffused through the many holes of the pipe, which will hopefully stop all the sand getting churned up.



I use an intake strainer of an external filter for the same job, run in reverse so the water comes out the strainer. As water hits the bottom it fans out through the slots. Works really well.


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## naughtymoose (24 Apr 2015)

Got my CO2 installed today. The flow rate is incredibly low though, and I can't seem to adjust it to go faster. 



 


 

 

Any suggestions folks?


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## Andy Thurston (24 Apr 2015)

yes a reg with a higher service pressure, that looks like an older up inline and some of these require a little bit more pressure


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## naughtymoose (24 Apr 2015)

Mmm.

So either get a different reg with a higher pressure, or a newer diffuser that operates on lower pressure. Is that right?

Does this mean that:
The reg is old, and operates on low pressure?

The diffuser came the other day from CO2 Supermarket.


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## Andy Thurston (24 Apr 2015)

inline diffusers need about 2-2.4 bar of pressure some of the older type take a little bit more. the hose tails on the latest UP INLINE can be removed, I'll dig some pics out later. but yes a reg with higher pressure or a diffuser that needs less pressure


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## naughtymoose (24 Apr 2015)

Thanks Andy
It looks like I'll be getting CO2 on my other tank then 

So. I need to get a more modern reg to go with the inline diffuser, and a 'simple' diffuser to go with the existing reg (which I can then use on the landing tank)?


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## ADA (25 Apr 2015)

Give the diffuser a soak overnight in bleach/water solution, rinse and dechlor and hook it up, should speed it up.


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## naughtymoose (26 Apr 2015)

Well, I've now noticed that the rate is about 1bpm, but I still don't seem able to adjust the flow. I'll report back when I have any further observations.


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## naughtymoose (27 Apr 2015)

After having a few PM's with people on the forum (thanks George and Andy in particular) and direct contact with Martin at CO2 Supermarket (who was very helpful) I've established what the problem is:

The TMC reg operates at around 2 bar, which is not powerful enough for the in-line diffuser.

So, as the diffuser is already plumbed in, I am having to get a new reg for Hobgoblin's Cave.

The existing, older, TMC reg that operates at 2 bar will have to be used with an external reactor in my other project, or will possibly go to a relative for his tank.

Service will be resumed shortly...


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## naughtymoose (14 May 2015)

I got my CO2 reg from CO2 Supermarket and got it all running. It took a bit of adjustment, but seems to be running OK.




The _Echinodorus tenellus_ that I got from Ryan all started to melt, so I had to sort the spray bars out quick
.



I bought a 2m length of PVC tube off a local company advertising on Ebay. They cut it in half for me and also cut some discs of clear pvc to stick on as end caps. Then, using a pillar drill, I drilled holes along the length of the tube. I used aquarium silicon to stick the end pieces on and let them set.



The distribution of CO2 is now much better; the_ E. tenellus_ is picking up, and the_ Hydrocotyle verticillata_ is too!





I've got a second length of tubing available to use on the RHS filter outlet. I'm not sure yet if I'll use it, or just continue with the existing short bar (just visible on the right in the picture above). I've deliberately fitted the CO2 bar a couple of inches down into the tank and tilted it downwards slightly. The shorter bar is aimed almost horizontally, and just moves the surface a bit. This has allowed my little ring paddock of floating _Pistia Sp_ to spin around quite pleasantly.

Through conversation and reading, I've learned that my hard water might be causing some melting. Does anybody have any suggestions on this? I've mixed up my Ei in 2.5L bottles, so could easily decant down to 500ml and add extra content if directed.


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## naughtymoose (25 Jul 2015)

Hi folks. I haven't updated you all for a while as I've been rather busy and also struggling with the illness a bit unfortunately.

My long spray bar seems to be working perfectly. The short bar will hopefully be replaced this week with another long bar.

I added an air pump to run for a few hours at night (and also a couple of 15 minute periods during the day).
The lighting unit had to be replaced as the plastic had started to warp. After replacement I left one of the top flaps off to reduce the heat. It also bathes the wall in a pleasant wash of light.

The moss grew well, but then I started to get a lot of algae. All different kinds! Hair, BBA, spots etc etc. After removal of the moss I found that the fish seemed to prefer it quite a bit, so I'm pleased with this result.

More detailed updates to follow!


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## Rob Dahl (25 Jul 2015)

naughtymoose, sorry to hear about your struggles with illness, but it sounds like you've sucessfully dealt with your melting and algae problems. Hope things have leveled out for you.


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## Greenfinger2 (25 Jul 2015)

Hi Naughymoose, Hope you are getting better by the day my friend. Looking forward to your updates


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