# 100+ppm calcium and nutrient uptake



## Sammy Islam (19 Nov 2019)

Hello everyone, i live in Hertfordshire and i have hard water - gh22 kh13. Tap water ph 7.2/3 degassed 7.9/8. Ive read literally hundreds of threads about fert dosing and about ca/mg ratio and relationship and also about if kh effects anything.

I have a 125l tank with a fluval 2.0 fresh and planted running at 100% and pressurised co2 at uncountable bps with a 1.2ph drop (from 7.9 to 6.7) and stays there during the whole photoperiod. I dose full ei, i should probably dose half ei as i have a medium planted tank but after reading stuff about hardwater and calcium preventing uptake balance of other nutrients i went with full dosing.

According to my water company average calcium content is 130ppm and magnesium is less than 1ppm, i do add a heaped teaspoon of mgso47h20 with every water change giving me about 5ppm magnesium but with 130ppm calcium i dont dont if thats effecting the uptake of other nutrients.

Does anyone else have experience with very high ca blocking/unbalancing nutrient uptake?

I dont dont really have any major algae problems apart from bba on manzanita and little bits of old growth on the slow growers but they get cut out regularly.

In terms of growth my hygro polysperma grows 1" a day, but sometimes has wavy leaf edges if i add more mg even though my ca is very high, or this this the mg and k relationship thats causing wavy edge?

I cant cant seem to grow ludwigia palustrias, it grows ok but seems pretty stunted and new leaves look deformed sometimes and lower leaves get bba.

Im sure lots of people have high ca and would love to hear their thoughts on how it interacts with using EI etc.

Thanks


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## ian_m (19 Nov 2019)

I have even harder water than you, straight from the chalk bore holes in Hampshire. Never had any issues with plant deficiency and EI dosing. Plants just grow monster, requiring weekly trimming.

Summary of link below..."If your plants fail in high dKH water then YOU are to blame. Do not blame your water." 
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads...of-high-kh-on-plant-growth.51378/#post-504774


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## Sammy Islam (19 Nov 2019)

Yes i have read that many times and understand what you are saying, but i guess i'll keep on reading


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## MJQMJQ (19 Nov 2019)

Your plants sure look ok I wont exactly worry about it.The stem plant looks like it needs a bit of trimming.


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## Sammy Islam (19 Nov 2019)

Yeah that was the last photo i took before trimming, most of my plants are good to be fair but im just trying to understand more. 
Maybe i should have asked do i need to use more traces so they are more available because of my ph and high ca? If i dose iron in dpta form can i half my trace dose that targets 0.2ppm fe to 0.1ppm and have enough micro/trace?

Thanks


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## Sammy Islam (19 Nov 2019)

So harder water requires more co2 to change to acidity in high ph/kh water? And in turn more nutrients?


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## sparkyweasel (26 Nov 2019)

An interesting link to some research into why some calcifuge terrestrial plants struggle to grow in calcareous soil. (Although grown in soilless culture for the experiment).
Nothing about aquatic plants growing in aquariums.


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## Zeus. (26 Nov 2019)

freewolny said:


> Because you could google them within few secs:



Well your the person who is stating myths, backing up your references to the myths and links that disprove they claims of the poster is only fair IMO, Im sure @ceg4048 would appreciate the info as he has always to the best of my knowledge always provided links to his posted information when asked  

Otherwise we might as well plug into the Matrix and believe what it throws at us


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## dw1305 (27 Nov 2019)

Hi all, 
First the disclaimer, I've never tried EI, or added CO2, I just don't have any experience of high tech. tanks, but I tend to agree with @freewolny, low. tech plant growth is often better in softer water, mainly because <"more nutrients are unavailable at alkaline pH levels">. 

Having said that a lot is going to depend on the plant. Some plant species are going to be happy in hard water, and that number will increase if you add CO2, because pH addition

 will lower pH 
and not all plants can use HCO3- as a CO2 substitute
A smaller number of plants are unhappy in soft water and <"require increased hardness to grow satisfactorily">.  

I don't see low nutrient, low tech. or hard water, as problems they just require slightly different approaches. Have a look at @akwascape's <"_Cryptocoryne parva_ carpet">.

cheers Darrel


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## Tim Harrison (27 Nov 2019)

dw1305 said:


> I don't see low nutrient, low tech. or hard water, as problems they just require slightly different approaches.


That's been my experience as well. My plants very rarely suffer deficiencies even though I've lived in very hard water areas. And I think that's been the experience of many folk.

For instance, the AG showroom, plants growing in very hard tap water, 333 mg/l (or parts per million) :Calcium Carbonate, 133.2 mg/l (or parts per million) :Calcium, 23.177 °C degrees Clark, 33.3 °F degrees French, 18.914 °dH degrees German, 3.33 mmol/l


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## Zeus. (27 Nov 2019)

Ok I will try and cover as much as I can, I am not an expert But feel both sides of the hard water debate are correct in what they say but are answering in different contexts.

My tap water is hard to very hard and I do feel like it makes a difference in growing plants from the fact I dose Fe EDDHA to supply the Fe and certain plants I struggle to grow the way I see others growing them eg Hygrophila pinnatifida I have yet to stop old leaves getting holes and melting 

Most of what I have learnt is by reading posts,threads, Wkii, pms and links to some research papers although the later can be had to find and there doesn't seem to be many papers to support their findings which makes things hard as coming from a medical background/degree I I'm use to being able to have resonable access to research via places like PubMed and Cochrane Library which the Botanical and horticultural library have no similar counterparts as far as I am aware, as if I had the time to plough though them anyway  

So I most go off my 'Peers' guidance and what works for others and apply a bit a common sense until proven otherwise.

I have been to Aquarium Gardens who have similar water to myself and very nice tanks, Ive also been to Green Aqua who use RO water remineralised and they also have Very nice tanks but the plants are in a different class than Aquarium Gardens. Thats not so say AG are doing something wrong IMO the difference is the water, one is soft and the other is hard and that does seem to make all the differance. The difference isn't massive but its their and it can only be seen by the naked eye up close. A picture cant be used to compare the difference.




ceg4048 said:


> High GH is annoying because it causes calcium deposits on your kettle and unsightly water spots on tank glass and equipment. However, the consensus is that there is very little impact on the vast majority of plants. The consensus is based on experience as well as on analysis.



So I agree with Clive in there being very little impact on the vast majority of plants from my observations and my tank, yet the little impact it has is a big difference up close. Yes using hard water just presents a different challenge which needs a slightly different approach but it is doable.



ceg4048 said:


> No one, that we know of, has reported having tap water that is so high in alkalinity as to prevent growth and health of the vast majority of plants. There are perhaps a handful of plants that may respond negatively to high alkalinity.



Again I would say true, he doesnt say easy or harder just plants grow in both.



ceg4048 said:


> The same thing that causes poor plant growth in low, medium and high KH water: poor attention to CO2, flow and distribution and poor maintenance and poor nutrient dosing.





ceg4048 said:


> A lot of problems that we have with certain plants, and which we blame on hard water or Iron toxicity, or whatever phantom reason, is actually a result of poor CO2 implementation.



I feel you have taken this out of context, I feel Clive hear is taking about CO2 injected tanks and blames poor CO2 implementation in the 'main'

cause of issues and not other nutrients. Clive has posted elsewhere that non CO2 injected tank dont suffer CO2 problems so CO2 is never to blame



freewolny said:


> Quite often it's actually an Iron toxicity because of hard water.



Think here you ment due to the FE not being freely available to plants due to the pH pushing the equilibrium over to the insoluble side ( we see the same problem with local anaesthetic is injected into infected soft tissue the pH isnt ideal and the local doesnt work) and again he doesnt say its not Fe causing the issue he says in CO2 injected tank the main cause of issues is CO2 related.



ceg4048 said:


> No, CO2 does not care about high KH. It dissolves in High KH water exactly the same as in low KH water.





freewolny said:


> - really? Basics of chemistry and interaction between acids and bases (in general).



Again I agree with Clive as it doesnt care about KH as I have seen nothing to suggest it affects the speed of which CO2 is uptaken by hard or soft water and 1.0pH change is approx 30ppm CO2 in water irrelevant of the starting pH. He doesnt say anything about whats available on an ionic level at a specific pH.

However both me and clive do/did use a lot of CO2 in our tanks CO2 used Database



ceg4048 said:


> If your plants fail in high dKH water then YOU are to blame. Do not blame your water.


As what one man can do so can another. No mention of easier or harder.

Shame the 'High Priest of Nutrient/CO2' isnt active ATM as reading his reply would of been more fun than reading mine

The debate continues...............


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## Geoffrey Rea (27 Nov 2019)

Tim Harrison said:


> For instance, the AG showroom, plants growing in very hard tap water, 333 mg/l (or parts per million) :Calcium Carbonate, 133.2 mg/l (or parts per million) :Calcium, 23.177 °C degrees Clark, 33.3 °F degrees French, 18.914 °dH degrees German, 3.33 mmol/l



Yup. The TDS out of the tap came out at over 400ppm when I measured it last weekend. That’s before we add anything else to the equation as well.


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## Geoffrey Rea (27 Nov 2019)

Just a kindly note on this thread...

The problem with the quote function is it can take an example from any user from anytime. Not everyone on here is posting as if they’re submitting a research proposal on every single post.

Not only that but knowledge is prone to change and you are allowed to change your mind about what you thought many moons ago, despite the record kept on here. I’m sure even the mighty Clive is out there making new learnings, refuting old thinking and fighting Agent Smith.

This whole thread comes across as a pissing match and I fear if it continues you’ll see a decline in the willingness for others to join the conversation. Learning (is hopefully) ongoing and enjoyable on this forum. The spirit of UKAPS has always been one of inclusive group learning.

If you know something, make it as accessible and as understandable for others. Otherwise, what’s the point?


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## dw1305 (28 Nov 2019)

Hi all,





Geoffrey Rea said:


> but knowledge is prone to change and you are allowed to change your mind about what you thought many moons ago


 Well said. It is back to <"Karl Popper">. I think we may all have all done, and advocated, things in the past that we wouldn't do now. 





Geoffrey Rea said:


> The spirit of UKAPS has always been one of inclusive group learning.


That is it, I think one of the issues with the internet is that it makes it easier to only see things you agree with,and that reinforce a "faith" position. We may <"have had times in the past"> when we weren't quite as inclusive as we could have been and we haven't always given members, with differing views, a fair hearing. Hopefully the situation is a bit healthier now, and that we can remain a broad church.  





Geoffrey Rea said:


> Learning (is hopefully) ongoing and enjoyable on this forum......If you know something, make it as accessible and as understandable for others. Otherwise, what’s the point?


I want that to be what everybody wants.

cheers Darrel


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## Sammy Islam (1 Dec 2019)

Thought i'd check back and didn't realise there would be so many more comments.

I've started to daily dose EI at half the dose each day, for 6 days and the 7th being rest day + water change. I dose full EI, with 12.5 macros 3 hours before i dose 12.5ml micros just before my lights turn on. I did this just so i know all ferts are available everyday, mainly iron. I've seen positive results already with my new growth on ludwigia being red rather than orange, so i seem to be going in the right direction.

Per week im dosing:
No3 20ppm
K 28ppm
P04 4.5ppm
Mg 8ppm
Fe 1-1.2ppm (~0.1edta + ~0.1dpta)

I can't work out this deficiency on my hygrophillia, basically leaf rolling/wavy edge. Co2 and flow is not an issue for this particular plant as it gets the most amount of flow and the diffuser is right next to them and i have a 1.1/1.2 ph drop.

Nutrients are at "max" and i dont have excessive lighting as i only use a fluval fresh and planted 2.0.

Only thing i can think of is daily top up with tap water increasing the Calcium content making it "harder" to uptake/find mg and possibly other nutrients?
Might get some RO from lfs for top ups or a bucket of rainwater and see if that stops it.

Any help with this deficiency would be much appreciated.

Thanks


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## ian_m (2 Dec 2019)

You shouldn't dose macros and micros on the same day as the iron in micro reacts with phosphate in macro and precipitates out and becomes unavailable to plants. A sure fire way, seen many times here, to get iron deficiency.

This is why EI method is dosing macro and micro on alternate days to prevent this reaction.


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## Sammy Islam (2 Dec 2019)

Yes i understand but many people dose both on the same day at the same time without problems probably due to dilution rate. I see no cloudyness, my tank is crystal clear. My ph goes above 7.5 after my tank degasses so my iron may not be available the next day. So thats why i'm daily dosing to ensure iron availability. If there was a reaction my tank would not be clear right? Ive been dosing full EI on alternate days for ages and my co2 is very high, 1.2ph drop and probably like 15bps into in tank diffuser. Always seem to have iron deficiency so ive decided to dose daily and have seen improvement already but the leaf rolling/wavy edge is annoying.


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## Thumper (2 Dec 2019)

ian_m said:


> You shouldn't dose macros and micros on the same day as the iron in micro reacts with phosphate


Not in usual dosings. At pH 7 you can dose 1,3mg/L PO4 and 0,756mg/L Fe(III) without reactions. If you have chelated iron its even higher, as its not 100% available at all times.


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## Sammy Islam (2 Dec 2019)

Thanks. If there was a reaction my tank would be cloudy right?

Please can someone shed some light on the leaf curling issue? Its my main problem in my tank, 90% of the plants are healthy and algae free, only a few old leaves and brown algae and a little bit of bba which gets trimmed out whenever i see it.


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## ian_m (2 Dec 2019)

Sammy Islam said:


> If there was a reaction my tank would be cloudy right?


No, as the iron dose in micro is quite small you will be unlikely to see cloudiness. People have mixed macro and micro, spun in centrifuge and verified using lab grade test equipment that the remaining liquid no longer contained any significant iron in solution. I tried repeating this, mixing my macro and micro, leaving for a week and I saw no sign of precipitation probably as concentration too small, probably should have tried much stronger solutions so that the precipitate would be visible. In the end the research has been done and verified, years ago, results were dose macro and micro alternate days.

It has been seen here numerous times, with people having iron deficiency in their plants, due to adding macro and micro at the same time. Can take months for iron deficiency issues to appear, due to the very small amounts plants actually need.

Iron deficiency in plants, yellowing of existing leaves and new leaves being yellow, is similar to magnesium, deficiency except that leaves recover from magnesium deficiency, as magnesium is mobile in plants, but leaves do not recover from iron deficiency. Some people report algae appearing on the leaves first before the leaves turn yellow underneath the algae.



Sammy Islam said:


> Please can someone shed some light on the leaf curling issue?


This can be caused by a whole variety of issues, the most common issue usually is potassium deficiency.

Lack of potassium due to reaction with iron in micro ????? Hmmm.

Handy link to plant health issues.
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/deficiencies.htm


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## Sammy Islam (2 Dec 2019)

Thank you for that info i may go back to alternate days if i see any negatives but so far ive seen a positive impact within a week and half. I dose enough k through kno3, kh2po4 and k2so4 in my solution, roughly 28ppm a week.

So you're saying my iron and phosphate could be reacting causing less potassium uptake than needed?


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## dw1305 (2 Dec 2019)

Hi all, 





ian_m said:


> Lack of potassium due to reaction with iron in micro





Sammy Islam said:


> Thank you for that info i may go back to alternate days if i see any negatives but so far ive seen a positive impact within a week and half. I dose enough k through kno3, kh2po4 and k2so4 in my solution, 28ppm a week.


Virtually all potassium (K) containing compounds <"are soluble">, so it won't be lack of potassium, unless you haven't added enough, which I think you've just discounted. 





Sammy Islam said:


> So you're saying my iron and phosphate could be reacting causing less potassium uptake than needed?


Yes,  that is a distinct possibility, for the reasons that @ian_m quotes. 





ian_m said:


> It has been seen here numerous times, with people having iron deficiency in their plants, due to adding macro and micro at the same time. Can take months for iron deficiency issues to appear, due to the very small amounts plants actually need.
> 
> Iron deficiency in plants, yellowing of existing leaves and new leaves being yellow, is similar to magnesium, deficiency except that leaves recover from magnesium deficiency, as magnesium is mobile in plants, but leaves do not recover from iron deficiency. Some people report algae appearing on the leaves first before the leaves turn yellow underneath the algae.


cheers Darrel


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## Sammy Islam (2 Dec 2019)

Ok ill go back to alternate day dosing then seeing as ive only been dosing daily for 2 weeks and these symptoms have been on going for months.
Mainly the hygro curling/wavy edge, and ludwigia leaves are distorted and drooping downwards which seems to be a calcium defiency and theres no way i can have a calcium defiency, right?

I feel like when i add 2tsp mgso4 to my tank during water change to give me 8ppm thats what contributes to the curling, or i see the curling happen more after water change. But ive tried 1tsp and 1.5tsp which gives me 4 or 6ppm, and it seems that 6+ppm helps my new growth on java ferns from having dark veins.

I thought if my ph goes above 7(edta) and 7.5(dpta) my iron becomes unavailable? My tank water degasses up to 7.9 when lights are off and with co2 6.7/8, so does that mean my iron wont be available the next day if im dosing alternate days?


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## MJQMJQ (3 Dec 2019)

Sammy Islam said:


> Ok ill go back to alternate day dosing then seeing as ive only been dosing daily for 2 weeks and these symptoms have been on going for months.
> Mainly the hygro curling/wavy edge, and ludwigia leaves are distorted and drooping downwards which seems to be a calcium defiency and theres no way i can have a calcium defiency, right?
> 
> I feel like when i add 2tsp mgso4 to my tank during water change to give me 8ppm thats what contributes to the curling, or i see the curling happen more after water change. But ive tried 1tsp and 1.5tsp which gives me 4 or 6ppm, and it seems that 6+ppm helps my new growth on java ferns from having dark veins.
> ...


Tap water commonly contains nutrients.Curling is due to stress, perhaps changes in TDS when changing water.Perhaps the plants werent too happy to begin with.Distorted leaves is generally too much nutrients or too little.Are u putting root tabs directly below the plants?


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## Sammy Islam (3 Dec 2019)

I have used root tabs in the past but mainly for "root feeders" like my crypts and tiger lotus. I haven't added any in a while because full EI supplies everything that my plants should need. I was thinking maybe the root tabs are providing excess nutrients but i do 80% water change a week to minimize excess ferts etc.

If my ph goes above 7.5 does that mean my iron isn't available the next day when dosing on alternate days?


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## MJQMJQ (3 Dec 2019)

Sammy Islam said:


> I have used root tabs in the past but mainly for "root feeders" like my crypts and tiger lotus. I haven't added any in a while because full EI supplies everything that my plants should need. I was thinking maybe the root tabs are providing excess nutrients but i do 80% water change a week to minimize excess ferts etc.
> 
> If my ph goes above 7.5 does that mean my iron isn't available the next day when dosing on alternate days?


Full EI is good enough.Iron would be less available if ph is above 7.5 but since ure doing EI no need to worry.Just rmb alternate day dosing cos no matter what the pH is the micronutrients will still react with Phosphorus.Pretty much the same as for soil.
https://www.nutrientstewardship.com/implementation/soil-ph-and-the-availability-of-plant-nutrients/


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## Sammy Islam (3 Dec 2019)

Ok cool i've set my auto doser to alternate days again and will monitor from there. I might also add the mgso4 twice a week instead of all at water change and see if that makes a difference. 

From further reading i'm assuming not all the iron is lost, only a certain percentage that reacts with the phosphate if my ph goes above 7.5 after lights out? So adding a little more iron will counter that as not all of it will be lost, meaning some/more will be available the next day? 

Do you advise against using root tabs while dosing EI? 

Thanks


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## dw1305 (3 Dec 2019)

Hi all, 





Sammy Islam said:


> only a certain percentage that reacts with the phosphate if my ph goes above 7.5 after lights out? So adding a little more iron will counter that as not all of it will be lost, meaning some/more will be available the next day?


It isn't only PO4--- that reacts with any Fe+++ ions, in alkaline, oxidising conditions the iron forms <"insoluble oxides and hydroxides"> etc.

The only way to ensure that iron, in solution, is available to your plants is to use <"a chelator that works at higher pH levels">. 

cheers Darrel


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## Sammy Islam (3 Dec 2019)

I understand what you are saying. Surely the fact that my plants are pretty healthy and colourful in general would indicate that the iron (edta+dpta) is working to an extent and maybe not to its full potential given the other parameters we have to consider and perfect eg. co2, flow, ph etc


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## dw1305 (3 Dec 2019)

Hi all, 





Sammy Islam said:


> Surely the fact that my plants are pretty healthy and colourful in general would indicate that the iron (edta+dpta) is working to an extent


Yes, I always say <"trust the plants, they don't lie">. 

Some iron is usually enough, and it is about the only deficiency that you can <"easily diagnose">, because of it effects new leaves. 

cheers Darrel


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## Sammy Islam (3 Dec 2019)

So does the iron still react with other things even though we dose alternate days but not as much if we added on the same day?

What else can cause drooping leaves on plants such as ludwigia? Could it be that ludwigia prefers a little bit lower gh/kh? My other plants don't seem to show this defiency.


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## MJQMJQ (4 Dec 2019)

Sammy Islam said:


> View attachment 129575 So does the iron still react with other things even though we dose alternate days but not as much if we added on the same day?
> 
> What else can cause drooping leaves on plants such as ludwigia? Could it be that ludwigia prefers a little bit lower gh/kh? My other plants don't seem to show this defiency.



Is it recently bought?If it is it might be due to difference in hardness and nutrient levels.


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## Sammy Islam (4 Dec 2019)

Yes that plant is new and  adapting to under water life, but i also have some old ludwigia that shows the same symptoms. Mainly twisted leaves and drooping/hook downwards.


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## Oldguy (4 Dec 2019)

ian_m said:


> Lack of potassium due to reaction with iron in micro ????? Hmmm.



I agree a very big Hmmmm. Chelated iron is often available as either the sodium salt (cheaper) or the potassium salt of the complex. These are aimed at top fruit growers as a folia feed. No leaf curl in these situations.

As you rightly point out the dilution in tanks is such that cloudiness will not be seen at normal dosing levels. At very high levels cloudiness from precipitating iron hydroxide would be noticeable as would the resulting yellow/orange colouration of iron oxides coating plant leaves and invisibly coating fish gills with accompanying distress. This level can be seen in natural waters issuing from sandstone flushes. For 'tomato soup water' there is a mine outflow a few miles from where I live and it influences the receiving water for its entire length with a grey/white cloudiness still present in its lower reaches.

Hardwater and chelated compounds. There is a good probability of iron and other transition metals present as chelates being displaced by group two elements and having as a result a short half life in solution for plant availability.

I think that the chemistry of our tank water is a nightmare unless you have daily access to a first rate analytical lab. School chemistry only works when every reagent is about 0.1 molar. However life would be boring if everything worked, but it would be restful.


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## Sammy Islam (4 Dec 2019)

So even when dosing alternate days the does iron still react with phosphate due to the remaining macros dose from the previous day even if the iron is released slowly from the chelator depending on ph? And if it doesn't react, why?


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## ian_m (4 Dec 2019)

The micro, especially the iron, once in the water tends to get depleted quite quickly due to:
- Absorption by plants.
- Unchelating due to high pH. Last longer in a CO2 injected, low pH tank.
- Chelate breaking down due to light. Most chelates are light sensitive.
- Bacterial action scoffing it.
- Reacting with left over phosphate.

I am sure I read somewhere the chelates only last a couple of hours once in the tank (as short as a couple of hours), due to all the above. I dose my macro/micro at same time CO2 comes on and two hours before lights come on. Not seen any plant nutrient issues.

Below is the standard graph of % chelation vs pH.




Many people have tried DPTA iron, to survive better in hard water, so they say, but it does tend to make the water pink.


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## Zeus. (4 Dec 2019)

ian_m said:


> DPTA iron, to survive better in hard water, so they say, but it does tend to make the water pink.



Fe DPTA is light sensitive also so breaks down when light is on and it doesnt make the the water as pink as Fe EDDHA but Fe EDDHA is light stable and better for higher pH also.

I find the pigmentation Fe DPTA does as very acceptable its just its light sensitivity that makes it no so good for our tanks IMO/IME


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## Oldguy (4 Dec 2019)

ian_m said:


> chelates only last a couple of hours once in the tank



Photo degradation of FeEDTA with Time in Commercially Produced Soluble Fertilizers ie Master Blend and Peters. by: Joseph P. Albano and William B. Miller www.researchgate.net/publication/279648904


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## Sammy Islam (4 Dec 2019)

So that graph is saying iron in small amounts lasts quite a long time before it degrades from light?

What about breaking away from the chelate at higher ph nearer 7? Does break down 100% so no iron would be available at all?

I've mixed in dpta to my micro mix and it isn't pink at all, more dark orange which doesn't discolour the water that much. I
assume most people in the uk live with hard water with parameters probably close to mine.

Do you just dose full EI on alternate days with the edta iron in the trace mix?
Do you supplement with dtpa aswell?
Do  you dose more than you need to because of hard water? 
Do you add trace/iron more often than EI calls for?


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## Oldguy (5 Dec 2019)

Sammy Islam said:


> Do you just dose full EI on alternate days with the edta iron in the trace mix?



I dose full EI on alternative days. I dose EDTA iron together with a EDTA trace element mix. These I make up from dry powder and are dissolved together in rain water.  I dose for a target Fe of about 0.2ppm on the other alternate days with other trace elements at about 0.02ppm. I do not know the dose according to EI and I dose at the same rate for both high and low tech tanks. Iron is a vital macro element and may be virtually absent from tap water. (Calcareous bore hole water will not contain iron and iron in waters from other sources is often removed in treatment plants so that people don't complain about iron stained laundry.   

My tap water is moderately soft/hard depending how your point of view. I cut it 50:50 with rain water and then add MgSO4 solution twice a week to bring the hardness back up to soft/hard. I have no scientific reason for doing this it just finds some use for the rain but it does stop limescale built up. Magnesium is often overlooked as a vital element for plant growth, with people assuming that it will be in the tap water.  

I grow plants that I can grow. The big balancing act is light levels/duration and CO2 levels in the water.

Hope that this has been of some help.


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## Sammy Islam (5 Dec 2019)

Thanks for your reply.

I use APF trace/micro ferts at the recommended dose which targets 0.2 fe from etda. I've also mixed in a bit of dpta to the mix so i probably dose around 0.3 fe per dose in total 3x a week. Iron is not a macro element, it is a micro/trace element which is why it's not in our macro mixes. 

My lighting is a fluval fresh and planted 2.0 which is rated at 57par at 18" so i'd consider that medium-high light. Also my photoperiod is only 6.5 hours as i i have a lot of  "slow" growing plants.


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## Maxplantinstitute (5 Dec 2019)

I read this highly interesting topic and have one question:
If iron is bound to a chelate and this chelate is broken down by light and in our tanks.  is it available to plants only before or after the chelate is affected by lights?
Would it be beneficial to add the chelated iron/trace mix at the time the lights turn on or of? 
Or does it not matter one way or the other? 

I have resently decreased my weekly micro dose and spread it out over several small doses. Daily and sometimes even twise a day.
This has really reduced the gda in the tank. And my slower growing plants is finally starting to look good.


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## Sammy Islam (5 Dec 2019)

From my understanding the chelate holds onto the iron and  and releases it slowly for our plants to absorb rather than all at once so it doesn't precipitate and react with other things.

That's why its best to dose just before lights come on because the co2 will have lowered ph to an acceptable range for the chelate to work (depending on degassed ph). Also apparently our plants only use iron for the first 1-2 hours of the photoperiod so making it most available when the lights turn on is the best route.

I like the idea of daily dosing as in my head it means iron and all other ferts are available everyday seeing as i dont know if my iron is broken down completely or not by the next day, if dosing alternate days. But seeing as my plants are fairly healthy i have to assume the alternate day was/is working and im just overthinking it too much with trying to daily dose given the iron and po4 reactions etc.


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## dw1305 (6 Dec 2019)

Hi all,





Sammy Islam said:


> From my understanding the chelate holds onto the iron and and releases it slowly for our plants to absorb rather than all at once so it doesn't precipitate and react with other things.
> 
> That's why its best to dose just before lights come on because the co2 will have lowered ph to an acceptable range for the chelate to work (depending on degassed ph). Also apparently our plants only use iron for the first 1-2 hours of the photoperiod so making it most available when the lights turn on is the best route.


That is it I think. 

Plants just need a trickle of iron (Fe) and the chelator supplies it. If the pH is below pH7 then those iron ions (Fe+++) are plant available.





Sammy Islam said:


> But seeing as my plants are fairly healthy i have to assume the alternate day was/is working


Yes, watch the plants, it works.

cheers Darrel


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## Zeus. (6 Dec 2019)

Oldguy said:


> Photo degradation of FeEDTA with Time in Commercially Produced Soluble Fertilizers ie Master Blend and Peters. by: Joseph P. Albano and William B. Miller www.researchgate.net/publication/279648904



Had a quick read of it and it didn't mention any water movement in the containers so I take it there wasn't any. So with diffusion being so slow in water I assume we can so for all practical purposes it doesn't take place unless the water is moving, but in our tanks the iron in the water column is being moved about due to our flow/tankturneover so the FeEDTA may/will degrade faster because of the flow and getting exposed to a higher PAR bombardment at the surface

another graph comparing FeDTPA and FeEDTA






Source William Miller 



Sammy Islam said:


> I've mixed in dpta to my micro mix and it isn't pink at all, more dark orange which doesn't discolour the water that much. I
> assume most people in the uk live with hard water with parameters probably close to mine.
> 
> Do you just dose full EI on alternate days with the edta iron in the trace mix?
> ...



I made up my own custom trace mix then added Solufeed Fe 11 DTPA (1ppm (17.86 μmol/L) iron can be achieved by adding 9.5gramsof Solufeed Fe 11DTPA per 1000L of solution.) so 9.5g per liter yeilds 1000ppm add 100ml to 500ltank yields 0.2ppm Fe per dose, three times a week yields 0.6ppm weekly dose

But


dw1305 said:


> Yes, watch the plants, it works.



I also found the FeDTPA doesnt discolour the tank much at all compared to FeEDDHA

I still was getting




So I started dosing some FeEDDHA manually on micro day - the above pic was post adding the FeEDDHA hence the green being back in the new growth.

Think the FeDPTA was breaking down either in the micro mix or by the light. I even light insulated my micro ferts dosing tubing.

The pale new growth has since returned again !

I have however decided to stop dosing LC (Liquid Carbon) as I dont think the tank needs it and have been reducing the dose slowly till the LC ran out. Have know setup my auto doser with FeEDDHA so I can dose it separately from the custom Micro mix and adjust it too suit the plants needs.

Was also planning (this weekend) to do a Micro mix without any Fe in. Then adjusting the FeEDDHA dose so the tank has a slight pink tinge for the rest of the photoperiod of Micro dosing day

Havent tried it using the STD EI Fe EDTA micro mix and adding FeEDDHA as a supplement. My tank was fine with STD EI Fe EDTA micro mix for the first 18 months and my water is hard to very hard.

So still work in progress and watching the plants

Hope it helps


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## dw1305 (6 Dec 2019)

Hi all,





dw1305 said:


> Yes, watch the plants, it works.





Zeus. said:


> I still was getting
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is an absolutely perfect. I hadn't thought of some leaves growing slowly enough, so you could actually see the <"_return to green_">.

From looking at the <"Amazon Frogbit (_Limnobium laevigatum_)"> I'd assumed you would only see an improvement in new leaves, but this is a really striking illustration of iron deficiency and recovery.

cheers Darrel


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## Oldguy (6 Dec 2019)

Zeus. said:


> water movement in the containers



That's my assumption. I was interested in these finding because of the high concentrations of fertilizer that was being used compared to our tank dosing concentrations.
As for the light in the test it was on for the duration, our planted tanks have a photo-period of about 8 to 10 hrs. 

I am of the opinion that in hard water the half life depends more on the rate of displacement of the central ion in the chelate by Gp II metals than on other factors unless the lighting is Super Nova. However I keep my EDTA chelates in black containers in a closed cupboard and that goes for the dry salts, the 'concentrated' solution and the 1/10th solution that is added to the tank. The water for these solutions is rainwater, in the good old days it was distilled water. (When I started on this trail Solufeed only sold in industrial quantities so I have what I have). Hmmm next year the apple trees are going to get a dose or three or I need to rewrite my Will.

 EI dosing on alternative days appears to work. Liked the greening of the leaves, would this indicate direct absorption of the chelate and its transportation through the plant.


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## Oldguy (6 Dec 2019)

Maxplantinstitute said:


> have one question:



Plants can and do absorb iron as a simple ion and also as a chelate and not just iron but other Transition metals also.

For convenience I dose at breakfast, macro and chelates on alternative days. Tank lights start to come on about mid day and go off about eight pm with a dawn/dusk and 'high noon' bit in the middle.

Frequent low dosing of traces is I think better than a once a week dose especially given half life issues. The EI approach uses alternative days for macro and micros.

Hope you enjoy the Forum. I am always learning.


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