# Deficiency ID?



## oscarlloydjohn (28 Sep 2018)

My java fern isn't looking too great at the moment. It is quite pale and some of the leaf tips are slightly deformed. There are also a few clear tips. 

I'm running CO2 and high light (twinstar 300e)

I don't think it's iron, as I dose it heavily.

Here is my dosing schedule (EI)

Macro (3x per week):
5ppm Nitrate 
1.25ppm Phosphate 
3.5ppm Potassium

Micro (3x per week, made using RO):
APF UK trace mix and DTPA iron for my high pH

0.3ppm iron (half trace mix and half DTPA)

I definitely don't think this is a calcium issue. My water has very high Ca and low Mg

Tap water:
80ppm Ca
8ppm Mg
pH approx 7.5 (tank 7.6pH)

As there is so little Mg, I am raising my water change water to about 14.5ppm Mg.

Any ideas? This has been happening for quite a while and is causing algae of course!! 

Cheers, Oscar


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## Zeus. (28 Sep 2018)

A full Tank Pic would help.

Have you done a pH profile? as number one deficiency in most CO2 injected tanks is CO2 due to fluctuating [CO2] in combination with poor tank turnover! what colour does your DC change and how long pre lights dose your CO2 come on?
Tank size and filter output?


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## oscarlloydjohn (28 Sep 2018)

Zeus. said:


> A full Tank Pic would help.
> 
> Have you done a pH profile? as number one deficiency in most CO2 injected tanks is CO2 due to fluctuating [CO2] in combination with poor tank turnover! what colour does your DC change and how long pre lights dose your CO2 come on?
> Tank size and filter output?



I will get a full tank shot in little while 

I haven't done a pH profile but didn't see much point as I currently can't afford a decent pH pen.

I don't bother using a drop checker, but my pH drops the full 1.0 at full saturation. I have my CO2 come on 3 hours before the lights so that it gets to concentration in time.

The tank is massively overfiltered. I am running an eheim ECCO pro 130 and the tank is 30L. The filter is rated at 500lph and I am running it at full flow (recently cleaned pipes too).

The CO2 bubbles seem to be well distributed as I can see them being carried by the flow across the tank.

Cheers


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## Siege (28 Sep 2018)

Drop checker will be your best investment. Will tell you what you think is happening.

Don’t trust the ph test kit. If accurate it’ll only show you what’s happening at the time of test.

Nb. 3 hours before lights on is a long time for a 30L tank.

Edit. Is that frogbit floating in the tank? If so looks very small for an ei fert tank. 
Check out TNC ei calculator again and maybe add magnesium (Epsom salts) and not rely on water from tap.


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## soggybongo (28 Sep 2018)

oscarlloydjohn said:


> I don't bother using a drop checker, but my pH drops the full 1.0 at full saturation. I have my CO2 come on 3 hours before the lights so that it gets to concentration in time.



forgive me for asking but how do you know you are getting the 1.0 drop without a ph profile?

i dont mean to be condersending in any way shape or form.


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## oscarlloydjohn (28 Sep 2018)

Siege said:


> Drop checker will be your best investment. Will tell you what you think is happening.
> 
> Don’t trust the ph test kit. If accurate it’ll only show you what’s happening at the time of test.
> 
> ...



I do have a drop checker in there, I just find measuring pH to be much more accurate as I find it hard to see the colour of the drop checker. 

Yes, I realise that is a long time for CO2 before lights but I have a high KH so it takes a while for the CO2 to get to the correct concentration. I simply adjusted the timing until the pH drop was 1.0 by the time lights are on.

The floating plant isn't frogbit, it's salvinia natans which is much smaller and lighter green.

I already add about 6ppm extra Mg using MgSO4. Like a GH boost but without Ca.



soggybongo said:


> forgive me for asking but how do you know you are getting the 1.0 drop without a ph profile?
> 
> i dont mean to be condersending in any way shape or form.



I did measure the pH a few times a day when I was dialling in the CO2 but I wouldn't call it a pH profile because I didn't plot a graph and didn't do it at regular intervals.

I was testing at lights on, a few times throughout out the day and at CO2 off. From that, I gathered that it stays stable at about 1.0 pH drop from lights on until CO2 off.

Cheers, Oscar


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## oscarlloydjohn (28 Sep 2018)

@zeus Here is the full tank shot.


 
Not looking too great, I know.

There is some new(ish) Riccardia on top of the rocks, which is melting and is covered in algae. There is also Rotala H'ra hiding behind the Hygrophila which I just recently trimmed.


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## Zeus. (28 Sep 2018)

The DC appears to have a nice yellowish green colour to it have you tried the DC at the bottom of the tank to see if you get the same colour change?
When I had Java fern in my high tech tank the tips of the leaves was translucent also and trident does the same also.


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## oscarlloydjohn (29 Sep 2018)

Zeus. said:


> The DC appears to have a nice yellowish green colour to it have you tried the DC at the bottom of the tank to see if you get the same colour change?
> When I had Java fern in my high tech tank the tips of the leaves was translucent also and trident does the same also.



I'll try testing the pH from different parts of the tank.

I know translucent tips are quite common in high tech tanks but I don't think this pale growth is. Possibly the extra magnesium hasn't started working as I only started adding it 2 weeks ago.


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## oscarlloydjohn (30 Sep 2018)

Bump


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## Zeus. (30 Sep 2018)

Heres a pic of my Trident attached, every leaf has a translucent/pale tip


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## Daveslaney (30 Sep 2018)

Think I read somewhere about this being perfectly normal on ferns grown in higher light situations. 
As long as the translucent tips are just on the new growth it's nothing to worry about.


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## oscarlloydjohn (1 Oct 2018)

Just found that the same thing seems to be happening on my Hygrophila leaves too. Crypts seem to be doing well though.

No way this is CO2. The diffuser is right under it and leaves are nicely swaying.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (1 Oct 2018)

I'll second on the fern, to me a translucent tip on fern I see as new growth rather than a deficiency. ferns tend to grow slowly in shaded areas so maybe exposing them to higher light just means they are growing faster than they can deal with it. Some plant just prefer to grow slower.


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## oscarlloydjohn (1 Oct 2018)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> I'll second on the fern, to me a translucent tip on fern I see as new growth rather than a deficiency. ferns tend to grow slowly in shaded areas so maybe exposing them to higher light just means they are growing faster than they can deal with it. Some plant just prefer to grow slower.



Seems like a lot of the leaves on the fern are pale and warped, but not translucent on the tips. The new leaves aren't pale and do have translucent tips which I realise is normal now.


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## Daveslaney (1 Oct 2018)

For EI targets your NO3 you are dosing 15ppm. 20ppm is the EI target so you are slightly low there but you should be ok.
I put the mg in with the micro mix bottle 12 tsp of Epsom salts in 500ml. You could try this and dose it 3 times a week with your micros to spread the dosing over the week and see if things improve.


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## oscarlloydjohn (1 Oct 2018)

Daveslaney said:


> For EI targets your NO3 you are dosing 15ppm. 20ppm is the EI target so you are slightly low there but you should be ok.
> I put the mg in with the micro mix bottle 12 tsp of Epsom salts in 500ml. You could try this and dose it 3 times a week with your micros to spread the dosing over the week and see if things improve.



Thanks for the reply 


I was adding magnesium to my macro mix, however I was concerned about it accumulating and harming shrimp. Thats why I only add it to my water change water.


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## Daveslaney (1 Oct 2018)

Sorry I have edit that bit. I thought your K was low but forgot to figure your potassium phosphate into the mix. So think you should be ok on that.


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## oscarlloydjohn (1 Oct 2018)

Daveslaney said:


> Sorry I have edit that bit. I thought your K was low but forgot to figure your potassium phosphate into the mix. So think you should be ok on that.



Lol. It doesn't seem like a K deficiency anyway. I suppose I will just have to give it some time to see if the magnesium will kick in.


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## rebel (2 Oct 2018)

I reckon dim the light by 10% and keep everything the same.


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## KeeperOfASilentWorld (2 Oct 2018)

Looks like it might be a K deficiency but hard to tell for sure as all deficiencies usually go hand in hand. When one nutrient is deficient, it affects many other nutrients uptake values.

Raise your K dosage. 3 ppm a day or 6 ppm x3 is a minimum. 3.5 ppm x3 is very low.

Keep on front loading Mg, Ca and do not spread them over the week. You can front load your K too if you want. 20-25 ppm of K after water change would be an ideal dose.

Try raising your micros too ( not the iron ), they seem a bit out of balance. You can try Tropica Premium at 1.4 ml per 10 L, for 30L 4.2 or roughly 4 ml a day is the ideal dosage. This dosage would give you 0.1 ppm Fe. ( Use Rotala Butterfly for further info )

or

You can DIY your micros with 0.15 DTPA and
Mn - .05 ppm
B - .045 ppm
Zn - .05 ppm
Mo - .0015 ppm
Cu - .002 ppm
Ni - .0005 ppm

Burr740 is the guru on micro's, start by reading his posts.

Here are two usefull links on DIY micro's:
https://barrreport.com/threads/diy-micro-fert-ingredients-rolling-your-own-made-easy.15756/
The Custom Micro Mix Thread - Page 68 - The Planted Tank Forum


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