# Pressurized CO2 & Fish Gasping - Surface Agitation?



## Jafooli (10 Jun 2013)

Hi

So I think I have a issue with my fish, and was not sure to post in this section or the fish section, but it may be down to my new CO2 setup, so thought this was best place to try.

So basically I've just had my German Blue Ram die a few days ago, her symptoms were gasping, she was the only fish gasping, I turned CO2 off for 2 days straight, let my air pump run 24-7 and she did not improve, and sadly did not make it. I noticed my Rasbora Espei shoaling a lot more then usual, and today they have just stayed hidden, and it seems like there gasping, and there fins are moving rapidly along with my Molly, who also seemed to be hiding, but is now swimming around bottom of tank looking for algae, food, every single fish is still eating, and my Oto's are fine and so are my Rasbora Galaxy's, but something is not right, the tank looks empty as all the fish are hiding.

I also have raised my filter a few inches higher and have a little bit of a ripple, but not to much, before when I was on DIY Yeast I had hardly no surface movement and all was fine, so I'm not sure whats happening. I've read numerous topics saying good surface movement is what you should aim for with a lot of ripples but not to much to cause splashing etc, so I'm thinking maybe I should buy a power head.

I also cant understand why I'm having this problem, my tank was fine for months on DIY CO2, and at its peak that was 1bps, and no fish ever gasped.... Is there a way a CO2 FE can contaminate a tank, if you purchase a dodgy one? I was also every busy the week I set my CO2 up so I'm not even sure if its related to my Ram and the other Fish, I also made two new batches of my Macro and Micro mix for my EI dosing, so not sure if something is happening there, is there a parasite that just causes gasping and rapid gill movement?

I've never lost a fish before and am now starting to think the others could be going that way as-well, I have also lowered my CO2 down to 1 bubble every 2 seconds, and no change in the fish, drop checker is green.

How can I find out whats wrong with my tank? It was also w/c day yesterday, I did 50% as normal and today there like this, all water parameters are in check.

I hope someone can share some advice or has any idea on whats going on, and if I should buy a power head? and what power head is best on a 20 gallon tank, as on ebay there all like 2000lph, which would blast my tank, I did find a cheap one for £7 that could work.


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## Henry (10 Jun 2013)

Did the fish look any better after the large water change? If not, there is either irreparable damage to their gills, or they have flukes or similar. High levels of organic waste can also hinder the fish's ability to respire.

What colour was your drop checker when your fish were gasping?


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## Jafooli (10 Jun 2013)

Hey Henry

All the fish seemed fine after the 50% w/c and as I reply to you now all fish are fine and swimming happily, but hours earlier all were hiding, shoaling along with gasping, and all the fish seemed to have rapid gill movement, it seems to come and go.. well that's been the pattern today.

The drop checker has been green all the time, only was blue after I did w/c and changed my 4dkh solution.

I have treated the tank with Chloramine T for 3 days:

Chloramine T - NT Labs

This was last week when I still had my ram, but obviously no improvement, there are not many symptoms so if it is a parasite etc how can I diagnose it, hopefully someone here or yourself can help,

I did give the tank a good trim, clean, I vacuumed well and have upped the filter for better surface agitation, I have lowered the CO2 down even more, so maybe this is working, but only time will well.

I want to buy a power head but not sure what size I would need for a 20 Gallon, I found a cheap one on ebay that could work:

 Aquarium Powerhead water pump 800lph

I still feel like my tank could do with more surface movement, so maybe this would help.... is there any of chance a CO2 FE can contaminate a tank?


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## Reuben (10 Jun 2013)

Someone might correct me here, but if you over do Co2 and the fish are gasping as a result then the most effective course of immediate action is not to add aeration via an air stone to de-gas the Co2  but to physically remove the Co2 laden water and replace it with fresh water (water change).  

Your fish do sound like they are reacting to high Co2 (rapid gills) is the solution in your DC fresh?  I know you say your yeast solution ran at 1bps but I wonder if there was other gas in those bubbles?  ie the Co2 level was not as concentrated as your FE Co2?  I've never used the yeast method so don't know.  But I can say I am using way more FE Co2 (bubbles to fast to count) with no problems to fish health.  I do also have a lot of surface movement though.

Not cheap, but for more flow a Koralia nano is excellent and produces a more diffuse flow even though the lph rating is fairly high.


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## Jafooli (10 Jun 2013)

Cheers for reply Reuben

If your correct about the removing of CO2 that would explain why my ram did not improve when I had my air stone running 24-7 with no CO2, now I wish I did a w/c straight away rather than later. 

I did a 50% w/c yesterday but maybe I should do an extra one tomorrow just to help, and yes I changed my DC solution yesterday after w/c. 

Also I agree with the CO2 FE maybe being more concentrated, but like you said not sure if its scientifically proven. 

I will have a look at the Koralia nano.


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## ian_m (14 Jun 2013)

Reuben said:


> Someone might correct me here, but if you over do Co2 and the fish are gasping as a result then the most effective course of immediate action is not to add aeration via an air stone to de-gas the Co2 but to physically remove the Co2 laden water and replace it with fresh water (water change).


I will correct you. When I gassed my fish after after changing drop checker due to a leak and leaving needle valve on same setting, next day my drop checker was yellow and the fish were clearly having issues. They were either listless at bottom of tank or at top of tank breathing from the surface. Putting my air on fixed that in literally minutes, all fish back to normal shoaling and hunting for food. This would be expected as the agitation with the air will almost instantly gas off the CO2.

Changing the water is not the solution either. Have you ever noticed plants pearling like mad after changing water ? This is because more often than not tap water is already possibly saturated with CO2. May not be 100% saturated at say 5bar pressure in the pipes, but once in the tank at normal 1bar may well be saturated.


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## dw1305 (14 Jun 2013)

Hi all,
I think you have 2 different issues. I'll try and deal with the Ram first, unfortunately the commercial stock of Rams is very poor quality, and most of them die fairly quickly however well you look after them. Another problem is that Rams and Mollies are totally incompatible as tank mates, whilst they both like it warm, Rams need soft, acid water low in salts and Mollies need hard, alkaline, water high in salts and ideally brackish.


Reuben said:


> Your fish do sound like they are reacting to high Co2 (rapid gills)


 I'm sure they are. Have a look at this link, it explains about fish respiration, gas exchange and the Bohr-Root effect: <http://www.sgreen.us/pmaslin/ichthy/fshrsp.html>.


ian_m said:


> Putting my air on fixed that in literally minutes, all fish back to normal shoaling and hunting for food. This would be expected as the agitation with the air will almost instantly gas off the CO2.


 I think Ian is right, you should get an almost instant response from the fish. 

I'm not a CO2 user, partially because I would always be worried about gassing my fish.

cheers Darrel


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## ian_m (14 Jun 2013)

dw1305 said:


> I'm not a CO2 user, partially because I would always be worried about gassing my fish.


A wasted worry in reality. Just start CO2 low, ie drop checker still green and increase the rate slowly over a couple of days. Mine can run at green going on yellow (ok yellow) and fish don't seem to care or mind. It's only when severely, it's my cock up, level of CO2 did it become an issue.

I have also accidently abused my fish by emptying 1litre of IE Macro into 180l to give 300ppm nitrate and did the fish care....No....they just wanted to know where was the food.....


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## Jafooli (14 Jun 2013)

Hey cheers for the replies,

Well I'm not sure 100% what happened to my Ram, hopefully its like DW1305 says and they are poor quality, I still feel something could of been done to save it but its a tough one when the gasping never stopped.

I think my fish are all acting fine, I looked on youtube at rasbora espei and they seem like a fish that always looks like there gasping =\... how ever I've had them for over a year and they never use to shoal only occasionally and never use to open there mouths as much, maybe the ram dying has made me watch them closer and I've never realized before.

Yesterday at a quick glance I noticed how I could not see any fish in my tank, so I had a look and then found all the Espei in the back corner under a plant swimming upside down and mating, then the males would spar continuously. I've witnessed the males spar as they do it nearly everyday but I have never seen the fish breed since I've had them and I know they lay there eggs upside down so I was pleased when I witnessed this. My molly was at the bottom looking for food and the Galaxy Rasbora are still very small and are always chasing each other around.

So I'm hoping my tank is back to normal, I'm still not 100% sure... but the espei are all swimming around this morning so think there done breeding :L .

I also plan on taking my Molly back to the fish shop and purchasing 5-6 rummy nose tetra's but I want to give it a while to make sure my tank is ok, I've read there prone to ich so one step at a time.

Thanks for everyone's input and help, I also have my CO2 going at 1 bubble every 2 seconds, I plan to slowly adjust it in a few days back to 1bps... and keep an eye on fish.. I also have ordered a 800lph power head to help with surface agitation as I think I could do with more.

Thanks again


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