# Desert's Edge



## hotweldfire (29 May 2011)

Hi All,

I've kept a tank for about 7 or 8 years now. Low tech, crypts, valis, cories, harlequins etc. Originally it was a Juwel Rekord 60. Had it for about 3 or 4 years at my last place. Moved it to my current place. Then a year later moved it upstairs to the bedroom. Few months later it developed a leak. Two days before I was going on a two week holiday. 

Not great.

Stripped it out, took fish up to LFS who kindly agreed to look after them and ordered the first thing that would fit the space:

http://www.seapets.co.uk/products/a...a-125-aquarium-and-cabinet-oak-and-wenge.html (without cabinet).

That's the current tank. About 2 years ago I decided I wanted to start aquascaping, without really knowing what I was doing, which meant upping the lights (added 2 t5s) without co2 or NPK. Therefore algae bloom.

Have been learning a lot in the last couple of months, especially since I found this site.

Previous incarnations (crap photos and lots of them):


----------



## hotweldfire (30 May 2011)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

And some more recent ones















Some pics of my shrimp:




































This is where it is now (sorry again for this pic, wife's slr is out of memory):


----------



## flygja (30 May 2011)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

Those shots from 2010 look pretty good for a non CO2 tank!


----------



## hotweldfire (30 May 2011)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

Thanks. What you can't see though is the rampant algae. That's why that tree ended up on its side - was as much a thread algae tree as a peacock moss tree. Up to recently it had weeping moss on it but stripped it out as I didn't like it very much.

Should have said, this is a very temporary setup. All the wood in there is coming out to be replaced with a single piece of manzanita that's on its way from Tom Barr.

Also, forgot to post this pic:






Rather sardonic blue neon goby.

Will post parameters, flora, fauna and maintenance shortly.


----------



## lil-lynx (30 May 2011)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

Amazing looking tank you have .
Could you tell me the black substrate you are using ? 

Love the cheeky blue neon goby !


----------



## hotweldfire (30 May 2011)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

It's a fairly thin layer of ADA amazonia (I) over some bog standard gravel (hence bits of white gravel in some of the pics). I think there's some flourite deeper down too but can't remember. Added the amazonia a few months back which was a bit stupid as I got a big old ammonia spike leading to losses.


----------



## hotweldfire (5 Jun 2011)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

Tank parameters and current setup:

*Fluval roma 125* which is 80x35x45
*Substrate*: some flourite at the bottom, gravel (I think it called itself river sand) and ADA Amazonia Aquasoil
*Lighting*: tank came with 2xT8s, added 2xT5s, then recently swapped the T8s for T6s and turned the T5s off
*Heating*: Fluval Mirrored 150W
*Filtration*: Currently Eheim Pro3 2071 with Koralia 1600
*CO2*: D-D disposable cannister set with Sera acrylic diffuser (diffuser highly recommended, D-D kit not)
*Hardscape*: Two large (and one small) pieces sumatran driftwood, one large piece redmoor root, a few small rocks (mainly mini landscape), lots of driftwood and redmoor twigs, almond leaf litter
*Fauna*:
- 3 oto affinis
- 1 oto zebra
- about 10 pygmy cories
- 2 neon blue gobies
- 6 sudandanio axelrodi
- about 20ish boraras brigittae
- 25ish vietnamese cardinal minnows
- handful of assassin snails
- job lots of cherries (various grades)
- 4 amanos
- 1 rhino shrimp
- 9 golden bee shrimp
Horribly horribly horribly overstocked I know. This is because a) it's a holding tank until I get my nano up and running and b) I'm really stupid and have no control. The big mistake was the minnows, biggest fish in there and I ordered too many. Will probably sell some shortly.
*Flora*:
Lots, so will forget some
- Anubias nana and nana petite growing on leftmost drift wood
- Narrow leaf java fern growing at base of left drift and on redmoor
- wee bit of needle leaf I'm cultivating
- wee bit of l. brasiliensis
- Dwarf hairgrass here and there
- hydrocotyle (sib I think)
- (badly struggling) HC
- marsilea crenata
- valis americana natans
- some invasive riccia
- p. helferi
- h. angustifolia
- c. helferi (bba infested)
- subwass pelia
- coral pelia
- wee bit of java moss
- lots of taiwan moss
- tiny bit of creeping moss
- fissidens fontanus
- common moss
- peacock moss


----------



## hotweldfire (5 Jun 2011)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

Oh, forgot to say, ferts are EI


----------



## hotweldfire (15 Jun 2011)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

Woo hoo    Manzanita has arrived and very nice too. Three separate pieces. The challenge now is figuring out the composition of it. Will post some pics in the next few days.

Am probably going to tear out the _Cyperus helferi_. So infested with BBA it's probably unrecoverable. Will replace it with cuttings from _H. angustifolia_.


----------



## hotweldfire (29 Jun 2011)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

Here are a couple of inspirations for the rescape:

http://www.cau-aqua.net/index.php?option=com_zoom&Itemid=29&page=view&catid=258&PageNo=1&key=0&hit=1

http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=13425&start=110

All about using the wood (and the plants) to create a sense of flow from one side of the tank to the other. 

However, I dumped the manzi on top of a cupboard and it randomly looks rather good:





Maybe that's the nature of this wood. If you lobbed it across a room it would probably still look good wherever it fell.

Anyway, for this sort of wood layout I guess I'd be going for this kind of look:

http://www.thegreenmachineonline.com/gallery/2578

Dunno if it's doable in a 80cm tank though.

What do people think?


----------



## hotweldfire (6 Jul 2011)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

Can I get some advice on surface film?

Since I introduced the vietnamese minnows this has been a consistent problem. As a result I've been running an airstone for 2 hours each night directly after lights off which has solved the problem. However, this is destroying the co2 levels in the tank and it takes 5 hours of co2 running before lime green as a result. This week reduced it to half an hour and the film (very oily looking) is back.

Purely due to over stocking/feeding? Any alternative causes?


----------



## chump54 (6 Jul 2011)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

here's a topic for surface film -> viewtopic.php?f=21&t=13603

I've found that surface movement was the only thing that works for me... but the co2 drops to nothing over night and I have to have it coming on earlier to make up for the loss... but this must be good for the fish/livestock ( I haven't got anything in mine other than plants at the moment)

oh like your wood, looks good on the cabinet. it'll be fantastic in a tank too 

Chris


----------



## Sentral (7 Jul 2011)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

That 'The view' tank you posted is wicked, I'd love to see you have something like that!


----------



## hotweldfire (8 Jul 2011)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

Chump - thanks. Very helpful link

Sentral, so would I mate    but would be seriously challenging I think. From previous experience of trying to grow a moss tree I found it was pretty hard to avoid algae growing on moss planted that close to the lights.

Am going to play around with the manzi this weekend and will post some pics for advice.


----------



## Piece-of-fish (10 Jul 2011)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

Use as low light as possible and lower temperatures if you can and you wont have any issues with moss plus less maintenance. That picture you posted will define current trend in scaping. I remember one of iaplc judges saying that. Good luck. The wood is amazing.


----------



## hotweldfire (11 Jul 2011)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

ARGHHHH!!!!     

I hate catching fish    

Spent half the day bagging the minnows then spent the other half catching the last chili rasbora. And failed. The little bugger is in there now but as soon as I get the net out it disappears.

Have swapped the minnows out for ember tetras. Well chuffed with them. As soon as lights were out they started shoaling round the tank. Even better the 6 sudandanio axelrodi started shoaling with them.

RE: the scape design, everything is determined by the wood. Will play around with it over the next couple of days and post some pics.

Piece of fish: Ta, let's see if I can do anything useful with that wood.


----------



## hotweldfire (12 Jul 2011)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

Another post of rage

ARGHHH   

I hate Fluval for making this tank with it's stupid thick plastic hood and lid

ARGHHH   

I hate myself for sticking it in a tight alcove with no room to play with

Let me explain - I just bought the Eheim installation kits, 1&2. Stupidly not realising that there is not enough room behind the tank to install them.

Have I ever explained the reason for the name of this journal? There's literally less than 1 cm space on the left and back of the tank. About 10cm on the right and obviously as much as you like at the front.

This makes putting in external kit an utter pain if not impossible. In this case it's going to be a pain. I can put it into the right hand side of the tank but I'm going to have to cut a chunk out of the hood to allow access.

By the way 

ARGHHH  

I hate Eheim. I also bought a nozzle/adaptor set which is supposed to allow you to adjust the direction of flow. Except it's missing the the adaptor that allows you to move the nozzle. This appears to be a separate spare part. Despite the fact that the set I bought is advertised as designed to work the installation kit I bought. But doesn't.


----------



## hotweldfire (14 Jul 2011)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

BTW if anyone else fancies attempting that layout here's a thread from someone who did:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/tank-journals-photo-album/130919-130-gallon-project.html


----------



## hotweldfire (16 Jul 2011)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

Well, despite my best attempts, the three pieces of wood I have will not come together in anything vaguely resembling Yutako Kanno's incredible scape (thus wasting lots of people's time on the substrate forum asking how to build some hills in the back). So back to plan A which is wood and plants all emphasising directional flow. Here's my best (out of tank) effort so far:











Going to be a bit of a tight squeeze height and depth wise as the tank is only 45cm high (and 35cm deep):






Have also added 3 CRS (1 S and 2 A), 4 more sundadanio axelrodi blue and 7 hisonotus leucofrenatus. Have also moved out large redmoor.


----------



## hotweldfire (19 Jul 2011)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

So, Erdal came round today and we made some minor adjustments to the position of the manzi. Am happy with the result:






Now to figure out what goes where. Plant list is:

[CURRENTLY IN TANK]:
H. angustifolia
H. pinnafitida
HC
Tiny amount of M. crenata
Hydro sib
Needle leaf java fern
Narrow leaf java fern (going to be sold)
Anubias nana
Anubias nana petite
P. helferi
Eleocharis acicularis
L. braziliensis
Random crypt that just appeared from under the fern. Haven't had crypts for over a year. Parvula I think.
Valis americana natans (?)
Peacock moss
Fissidens fonatus
Grid of anchor moss
Grid of mini-xmas moss
Micro fern moss/mini taiwan moss/unidentified on bog wood

[GROWING ON WINDOWSILL]
Decent amount of xmas
Decent amount of taiwan
Ickle sick looking bit of coral pellia
Ickle bit of willow moss
Ickle bit of weeping moss

[ON IT'S WAY FROM TAIWAN]
Pearl moss
Mini-bolbitis
Crepidomanes auriculatum

Bit overwhelming. Placement ideas?


----------



## Mrmikey (20 Jul 2011)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

really like the wood you have there will look ace planted up.


----------



## hotweldfire (21 Jul 2011)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

Thanks mate   

Getting close to the big rescape which will almost certainly have to be this weekend. Going to take two days I reckon.

In the meantime I have decided to go inline for co2. In an attempt to save money have gone for a Waterplant reactor number. You plug it into your outflow pipe and connect the co2 and it chops the bubbles up tiny. Works really well, only thing is mine has developed a leak. Only a tiny tiny bit  (more of weep than a leak) so will silicone it up and should be sound.

Problem is I've also installed the eheim installation sets and because of the awkward tank rim can only have the outlet an inch above the water level or well below it. Naturally have gone for the latter and have ended up with really really thick surface film again. Currently running an airstone tonight to break it up. 

Defeats the purpose of the co2 but I lost an ember tetra today. Could easily be the higher dissolved co2 content but the DC is mid green and I'm only running about a bubble and a half a second. Am worried it's bugger all oxygen in the water.

Also received some uber expensive plants in the post today:

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16899&p=174197#p174197

Have a look and see if you can guess.


----------



## hotweldfire (24 Jul 2011)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

Well, the first of the three manzi pieces is in. Second two tomorrow, will post pics then. Blimey that was hard work. Have tied/glued anubias nana, tiny bit of nana petite, needle leaf java fern and microfern/mini-Taiwan moss (courtesy of Living Waters) on it. Very taken with the microfern moss. Think I'll use it predominantly on the rest of the wood with just some fissidens and mini-xmas.

Less happily lost at least three fish today - 1 neon goby and 2 sundadanio axelrodi. Dunno what's going on. They just look weak and float around and then die. DC is showing low co2 so don't think it's the new diffuser (which has stopped leaking by the way without silicone added). Have moved the filter outlet up to water surface which is breaking up the film and adding o2. Screwing around with the substrate in order to bury that manzi will not help. Hopefully won't wake up to an aquatic graveyard tomorrow.


----------



## ghostsword (24 Jul 2011)

*An inconvenient space*

Yep, messing on the substrate, and then increased co2 can be a mess. 

A gas bubble on the susbtrate would be all you need to kill some fish.



.


----------



## hotweldfire (24 Jul 2011)

*Re: An inconvenient space*



			
				ghostsword said:
			
		

> Yep, messing on the substrate, and then increased co2 can be a mess.
> 
> A gas bubble on the susbtrate would be all you need to kill some fish.
> 
> .



Yep, 'cept the deaths started before messing with the substrate. Has to be something do with the new diffuser and/or eheim installation kit. Only thing I can surmise is oxygen.

Anyways here's the first piece in . Can't get decent shots during the day because of the reflections. Working on the second piece now.










Couldn't get the original orientation I wanted on it because even with serious messing in the substrate it was too tall. Had to tip it forward as a result. Still needs to lean a bit more towards the front and twist round to the right. Anubias are a bit dominating right now but will see how they look once some stuff has filled in around.

Also still concerned with how high the top branch is. Looking like I'm going to get some emersed growth from the microfern moss assuming it doesn't get destroyed by thread algae.


----------



## hotweldfire (27 Jul 2011)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

Right, here's where I'm at. All three pieces in and planted up. Sundandanios dropping like flies. Embers, cats, and shrimp all seem fine. Cloudy pics, I'm afraid, due to all the B&Q play sand I dumped in the back to build up the lack of slope.






 Left side of tank still needs scaping.






Rockwork was a challenge


----------



## collins (27 Jul 2011)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

really like this, youve done an excellent job....cloudy or not looks great!


----------



## ghostsword (27 Jul 2011)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

The layout looks really cool. The rocks are so well positioned..


----------



## hotweldfire (27 Jul 2011)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

Thanks both. Actually had to leave out the best bit of dragonstone I had as it just didn't work. Will attempt to finish planting tomorrow and get some more pics up.

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


----------



## Alastair (27 Oct 2011)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

How did you get on with getting this tank finished mate. Looked great from your last pics and from some of the plants I've had from you I guess it's going well


----------



## hotweldfire (27 Oct 2011)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

Mate, have just looked at the date on my last post    Shocking slackness on my part. TBH the main reason is I can't get a decent shot of the tank. First and foremost I need to go to DSLR school. Secondly the lighting ain't ideal. While the t6s I'm running are doing the plants plenty of good they make the tank look a bit bleak, especially in photos:














And the tank lights replaced by an anglepoise during water change:






As you will no doubt notice the plants are doing ok but the hardscape, especially the rock, is suffering. Especially from BBA. Aggressive course of excel currently ongoing.

Tips on better photography results very welcome.


----------



## hotweldfire (6 Mar 2012)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

Hello all,

Long time no update so thought I should give you a few pics.

Firstly, though, woop! One of my surviving blue pearls is berried (no pic I'm afraid). Have added some red nosed and some more blue pearl too. Looks like the shrimp genocide is over.

I also added a second koralia (nano) to back right hand bottom corner of tank under the filter outlet. Amazingly in about a week the BBA which was infesting the tank was gone. Completely. I guess Clive was right.   The H. pinnatifida which I'd always struggled to grow  in this tank started to take off. Funnily enough it was just in front of the new koralia. Looks a bit yellow in this pic but that's just the light shining through it. Doing quite well.


2012-2-2_20.48.35 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

Also doing well however is hair algae and cladaphora.

So I'm going to spout some heresy now. I don't mind getting shot down for it because I don't really believe what I'm saying. But want to say it anyway.

Plants are doing really well in this tank. The only thing struggling is some P. helferi and a part of the HC. Both of these happen to be in a bit of the tank that is being overshadowed by ferns and moss so I think that's a light issue.

At the same time I have hair algae growing on seemingly flourishing plants and cladaphora on hardscape. BBA has made a brief comeback but that's very recent and I know the cause - fluctuation from my co2 reg. The other algae has been flourishing alongside the plants for months now.

Healthy plants
Needle leaf

2012-2-2_20.47.44 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

E. vivipara (which has grown in even more in the week since this photo was taken)

2012-2-2_20.56.48 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

What used to be an HC carpet 

Carpet2 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

is now primarily an Elatine hydropiper carpet as the latter has taken over

2012-2-2_20.51.29 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

Total blyxa jungle, looking golden in places and sending out what looks like flower pods ( :? )

2012-2-2_20.47.6 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

Also some Ranunculus growing in there

2012-2-2_20.54.52 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

Healthy algae
Here's the carpet from another angle. Hopefully you should be able to see the hair algae growing out of it

2012-2-2_20.51.39 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

The same stuff on some crazily fast growing mini xmas moss (don't worry Phil, what I'm sending you isn't infested like this   )

2012-2-2_20.51.20 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

Cladophora and BBA in amongst the blyxa (and a red nosed shrimp trying to deal with it, bless him)

2012-2-2_20.50.54 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

Again (fissidens is particularly affected by the hair algae)

2012-2-2_20.55.7 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

And on the dragon stone

2012-2-2_20.52.12 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

Here's a FTS. Rather old one now as the vivipara is right across the back wall and most of the mini xmas has been pulled out and transferred to my new nano. Only thing stopping the hydropiper crawling all around the front are those moss meshes (although it did manage to grow under one and pop up the other side   ). Blyxa is also more rampant than in this photo.

MainFeb4 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

Don't pay too much attention to the colour of the DC, this was taken on maintenance day so always a bit all over the shop.

Basically I have both plants and algae pearling happily away in complete harmony an hour or two after lights on.

So I am hereby challenging the orthodoxy. Namely the well established theory that if you create optimal growing conditions for your plants (injected co2, good flow, EI ferts) then they will out compete the algae in your tank. Not in my bloody tank.

Seriously, I am stumped. The only thing I can think of is waste. I.e. the tank is overstocked (which it probably is) and there is low level ammonia that the algae is using up faster than the plants. In fact isn't it the case that higher plants will prefer to use the nitrate we add as ferts to the ammonia created by fish waste? I am using purigen in the filter though and do clean it regularly.


----------



## hotweldfire (11 Mar 2012)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

So no one wants to burn me for being a witch? How disappointing.


----------



## sWozzAres (2 May 2012)

*Re: An inconvenient space*



			
				hotweldfire said:
			
		

> So no one wants to burn me for being a witch? How disappointing.


How long are your lights on for?

Also, what is the flow like in the places that have algae?


----------



## hotweldfire (2 May 2012)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

6hr photoperiod. I do think the lights (T6s) are a bit strong which is why I reduced to 6 hrs a few months ago. Flow is good everywhere, including algae areas. Have two koralias as well as filter running in a 125l so bit like a washing machine in there.

 Things much better now but not algae free. Hard to say what's driven the improvement. I have

- been using purigen and cleaning filter every month
- swapped my inline reactor for a up inline diffuser
- swapped my old reg for a lunapet one
- got more shrimp in
- pulled the mini xmas moss (which was a serious hair algae magnet) out

As I said, still not perfect. One thing I have noticed is that my frogbit isn't looking too happy in this tank. Which suggests a nutrient deficiency. Am upping the ferts as a result.

Will try to get some pics up tonight.


----------



## hotweldfire (4 May 2012)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

Pics as promised


005 (3) by hotweldfire, on Flickr

You will note the mini rescape on the left hand side.


013 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

Not too chuffed with it. Was done in a hurry and looks like a rockery or something. Like I let my mum rescape my tank   Ah well. Bottom line is this tank is a bit too small for what I'm trying to do. Think I need to keep things simpler.

As evidenced by the vivipara which needs quite a lot of maintenance to stop it getting tangled up in the hardscape and H. pinnatifida


2012-3-19_11.7.1 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

014 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

Hydropiper carpet keeps on going though. Need to trim (which I've never done) and replant across the whole of the front of the tank. It has totally overgrown my HC which is gone bar a wee bit replanted in the back left which is struggling.


010 (2) by hotweldfire, on Flickr

Am using C. parva on the right (darker area) and erio cinerum on the left (which you can see in the second pic) as highlights in the carpet. The latter has struggled with a lot of melt but some of the plants are growing back in. 

Needle leaf still doing well


020 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

and I like what the ranunculus is doing tucked in behind my hardscape and in front of the blyxa


019 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

Like little palm trees.

Erm, can't finish updating as flickr seems to have gone down. Will post a couple more photos when it's back up.


----------



## hotweldfire (5 May 2012)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

Fissidens still needs trimming


026 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

This is the area that needs most work still


023 (2) by hotweldfire, on Flickr

On the right hand side and heavily overshadowed. The surrounding manzi creates a kind of frame. A window if you like into a shadier bit of the tank further back. I think some mosses and ferns growing back there will look very good. Got some mini bolbitis, crep and giant willow moss. Also some mini windelov growing just in front of that space with some anubias nana petite.

Other thing to do is to attach coral pelia and mini fissidens to the manzi.


----------



## BigTom (5 May 2012)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

That vivipara is mental. Really liking the blend of plants between mid and background.


----------



## hotweldfire (5 May 2012)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

Thanks mate. Blyxa has come up trumps. Creates a dense jungle like foliage as a background. Vivipara would work really well if I had more depth (only 35cm deep this tank) and could keep it separate from the other plants and hardscape.


----------



## hotweldfire (16 Aug 2012)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

Am sick of this tank. Just a big soupy cursed algae mess. Am stripping down and rebuilding. Will try to post pics tomorrow.


----------



## darren636 (16 Aug 2012)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

think it is a good layout. The next one should be even better


----------



## ddam19 (16 Aug 2012)

*Re: An inconvenient space*

can't wait to see new pics.


----------



## hotweldfire (19 Aug 2012)

Thanks both. Rescape done but I'm afraid I don't have photos. I have to take photos at night because of the reflections I get in the daytime and it's in a bedroom so small window of opportunity I'm afraid. Hopefully will manage some time this week. 

In the meantime, firstly, a new name. TBH I've been meaning to call it this for a long time but it looked so far from the edge of a desert that I was too embarrassed to rename the thread. Happily it's looking closer to the vision I had of it. Secondly, some rescaping shots until I get proper ones up (sorry to be a tease):

This is what it looked like the morning I tore it down:


15-8-12_3 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

New substrate. Firstly verdant pastures and all that:


15-8-12_2 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

Went for the malaya because of less release of ammonia. Coarse stuff on bottom, sand type at top.

Then B&Q non-toxic play sand to cap most of the surface but with a bit of the malaya sand showing back right corner:


15-8-12_1 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

Fish took half the day to catch. Only managed it in the end by herding them into a bottle trap. Left them sitting in a plastic box (food safe) with a HOB running.


15-8-12_4 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

Kept most of the tank water:


15-8-12_5 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

Hell of a lot of substrate to dig out. This tank was about 8 years old (at least some of the substrate was) and it has been topped up more than once. Unfortunately the process of pulling out all that coarse gravel resulted in some scratches but nothing major:


15-8-12_7 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

And here it is stripped down:


5-8-12_8 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

That's all I've got right now. More later. Basic problem with the scape had been the tank didn't have enough depth for me to get the look I wanted. As you'll see when I post new pics that hasn't changed but I think it is looking closer to what I wanted anyway. Unfortunately, as luck would have it, the day I decided to rescape was the day my solenoid packed in so low co2 levels for already stressed plants whilst I try to work out optimal 24/7 injection rates. Hopefully not everything will melt by the time I get it right.


----------



## hotweldfire (26 Aug 2012)

Photos as promised. Please try to ignore all the moss meshes and ferns on the left hand side: these need attaching to hardscape. There should be nothing on the far left but rock and sand.


24-8-12_1 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

24-8-12_2 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

24-8-12_4 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

24-8-12_3 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

Basic problem with the tank remains which is that it isn't quite big enough for what I want to do. In particular the depth is lacking. So, the stems when grown in aren't going to look that great because they're only be a thin line of them and the needle leaf is already too big for the tank. Still, it's an improvement I think and should grow in well. Hasn't had the easiest start because, sod's law, the day I rescaped was the day the solenoid packed in so I've been running inadequate co2. Starting to bounce back now I hope.


----------



## nry (27 Aug 2012)

Liking that a lot, looks great


----------



## Ian Holdich (27 Aug 2012)

nicely done! looks really clean and tidy.


----------



## tim (27 Aug 2012)

looks just like the name you chose for it


----------



## hotweldfire (5 Sep 2012)

Thanks all. Looks a bit too neat and tidy at the moment but that will change as it grows in.


----------



## darren636 (5 Sep 2012)

hey that is good. Reminds me of the island in Lost. Series one.


----------



## Westyggx (5 Sep 2012)

Looks cool mate, nice and fresh looking.


----------



## hotweldfire (9 Dec 2012)

Thanks all. Will post updated photo shortly.

In the meantime here's a conundrum for all you co2 gurus. I'm still not getting co2 right as evidenced by the film on the water and wee bits of bba and cladophora. Here's my daily schedule with PH readings:

11:30 co2 on. PH 7.6
12:30 7.1
13:00 7.1
14:00 Lights on. PH 7.0
14:30 6.9
15:10 6.8
16:15 6.8
17:00 6.7
18:00 6.7
18:30 co2 off
19:00 6.8
20:00 lights off. PH reading jumping between 6.8 and 6.9

As a reminder, co2 is via UP inline. Note: PH readings were taken from the top opposite corner of the tank from the filter outlet. Drop checker reads on the yellow side of lime green by end of day.

So it would appear that the co2 concentration doesn't reach its maximum until 3 hours after lights on. That's despite it coming on 2 and a half hours before lights on. Should I turn it on even earlier or up the injection rate?

Also, the concentration starts dropping off as soon as co2 goes off. I'm surprised by that as I thought plants don't really use it up at the end of the photoperiod so was expecting it to stay level. Should I keep it running later?


----------



## Antipofish (9 Dec 2012)

Hey Sajid.  Im not sure I agree that the film on the surface is directly linked to your problems.  Plants do give off a film and it can be linked to water change regime too, and also what type of plants you have. I have found the faster growing plants seem to be worse. (I dont know what yours is but knowing you I would expect it is fine).  I have found too that by running an air pump I eliminate the surface scum and increase the available oxygen for the fish, which in turn means I can up my CO2 also.  My concentrations were similar to yours with a 3 hour before lights start time.  The CO2 levels will reduce immediately because they are being exchanged at the water surface (as you probably knew) so that does not surprise me.  You stated that the plants don't use as much CO2 towards the end of the photoperiod.  In a normal environment I suspect that is correct, because the light levels are diminishing with sun down.  However unless you run a dimmer on your lights Im not sure this would be entirely accurate in an aquarium.  Other peoples' thoughts on that theory would be interesting to hear.


----------



## hotweldfire (10 Dec 2012)

Hi Chris,

Quite a bit of sense in what you're saying. I would, in the first instance though, disagree with you about the surface film. I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that 9 times out of 10 this is indicative of poor (or at least non optimal) plant health.

What I'm aiming for, on the basis of accepted wisdom on this forum, is highest level of concentration at lights on and then reduced concentration at the end of the photoperiod. However, what you say is sensible. Why in a tank would plants require less co2 at the end of the photoperiod if the light levels are the same?

Are you not worried about your co2 not being at its highest when lights come on? I believe Clive and others have argued that this is as much of a problem as overall inadequate levels of co2.


----------



## Antipofish (10 Dec 2012)

hotweldfire said:
			
		

> Hi Chris,
> 
> Quite a bit of sense in what you're saying. I would, in the first instance though, disagree with you about the surface film. I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that 9 times out of 10 this is indicative of poor (or at least non optimal) plant health.
> 
> ...



I would prefer it to be better, and I will aim o get it there when the new tank is set up. But I am not overly worried as my plants seem healthy enough.  I agree with you though, why would plants require less CO2 if the lighting level is the same until the end of the period.  But then in my tank, this is not the case as I ramp my lighting down... I use a TMC controller.

Re the surface film... Mark Evans has said several times that he gets this (and has told us that he removes it using an icecream tub).  I don't know that he gets it all the time, but I recall other successful scapers whose tanks look amazing, also saying they do get scum.  I suppose there is scum and there is scum, and different tanks / plant combinations will create different amounts, so there is an element of relativity there.  I'm not saying you are wrong either. There has to be an element of truth there, but what plant is 100% healthy ?  Life by its very nature is never 100% healthy as cells are always dying.  Be they ours or our plants'


----------



## danmullan (10 Dec 2012)

hotweldfire said:
			
		

> Also, the concentration starts dropping off as soon as co2 goes off. I'm surprised by that as I thought plants don't really use it up at the end of the photoperiod so was expecting it to stay level.





			
				Antipofish said:
			
		

> In a normal environment I suspect that is correct, because the light levels are diminishing with sun down. However unless you run a dimmer on your lights Im not sure this would be entirely accurate in an aquarium.



I agree with Antipofish on this one. If the light intensity does not vary throughout the photoperiod, the plants aren't to know that the photoperiod is coming to an end. Therefore the nutrient uptake and co2 consumption should stay constant (assuming all other factors remain the same) 

But maybe in a natural environment, or simulated sunset, the plants rate of photosynthesis would begin to slow down. Makes sense, but I could be wrong.


----------



## Ady34 (11 Dec 2012)

I'm interested in this. Do plants need a dark period for O2 uptake or could they grow more with a constant lights fert and co2 source? Do they need dark periods at all to survive? (Obviously our fish need a dark period, so its directly a question related to plants) I'm sure I read that Richard from aqua essentials was running one if his hydroponic pods 24/7 to increase growth speed, but I could be wrong. If plants do require 'down time' from light, and need an O2 feed then it makes sense that naturally they will have a maximum uptake rate during the photoperiod which would slow down. In nature this is obviously related to the intensity of the sun so it will be good to know if most of our single intensity lighting drives the plants hunger all through the light period, or if plants naturally reduce there uptake....and if they do, how long are they at maximum uptake?
I'm suspecting as light is the driving force, and as we try to optimise co2 for lights on that the same should apply until lights out....Clive has alluded before to the fact that co2 can be shut off a few hours prior to lights off but i dont know if this relates/depends on the rate of off gassing of co2? with high surface agitation it may be better to run co2 till about an hour before the end of the photoperiod or closer? if plants do naturally reduce uptake rates after a length of time then its not so important.....we need an expert to clarify!?
Cheerio,
Ady


----------



## gmartins (11 Dec 2012)

Actually I see in my tank that many species of plants "close" themselves (leaves become in an upright position) when lights are due to switch off. And have no dimmer. So this probably indicates that plants know exactly when the lights are going off.

I should know better but as far as I recall I think that plants do not need the dark period. 

cheers

GM


----------



## hotweldfire (15 Dec 2012)

Interesting. The question is how would the plants know? Are they hardwired for a certain photoperiod? I struggle with that idea given that they have to adapt to fluctuating photoperiods over the course of a year, with longer ones in summer and shorter in winter. But perhaps that only applies to plants from temperate zones. Perhaps near the equator the photoperiod doesn't fluctuate much so it is adaptive for them to start shutting off after, say, 6 hours? Dunno. I agree we need a botanist to tell us what's what (*cough* Darrel *cough*).

What about the start of the photoperiod then? If it is true that they naturally slow down uptake at the end of the photoperiod wouldn't the opposite be true at the start? I.e. that they wake up slowly? In which case do we really need the co2 to be optimum at lights on?


----------



## Ian Holdich (15 Dec 2012)

Ady34 said:
			
		

> I'm interested in this. Do plants need a dark period for O2 uptake or could they grow more with a constant lights fert and co2 source? Do they need dark periods at all to survive? (Obviously our fish need a dark period, so its directly a question related to plants) I'm sure I read that Richard from aqua essentials was running one if his hydroponic pods 24/7 to increase growth speed, but I could be wrong. If plants do require 'down time' from light, and need an O2 feed then it makes sense that naturally they will have a maximum uptake rate during the photoperiod which would slow down. In nature this is obviously related to the intensity of the sun so it will be good to know if most of our single intensity lighting drives the plants hunger all through the light period, or if plants naturally reduce there uptake....and if they do, how long are they at maximum uptake?
> I'm suspecting as light is the driving force, and as we try to optimise co2 for lights on that the same should apply until lights out....Clive has alluded before to the fact that co2 can be shut off a few hours prior to lights off but i dont know if this relates/depends on the rate of off gassing of co2? with high surface agitation it may be better to run co2 till about an hour before the end of the photoperiod or closer? if plants do naturally reduce uptake rates after a length of time then its not so important.....we need an expert to clarify!?
> Cheerio,
> Ady




I remember Tom and co, claiming that aquatic plants have a point where they shut off, i remember the uptake of c02 was at a maximum at the first few hours, the rest was redundant. They would continue to photosynthesise, but there was certainly a shut off point im sure. As for the scum in a tank, i think we all suffer from it TBH, IME i think its due to the C02, and wasted C02. This is purely a hypothesis as it happens more so on high tech tanks. I have also notices that it happens when you ramp the temps a little more, which would explain the wasted C02.

Just a theory.


----------



## viktorlantos (15 Dec 2012)

You have scum on this tank because you have algae. Once algae will go off scum will disappear. A healthy tank surface is clean. Since you mention you have algae already i would focus on to remove them and your problem will be solved with the surface too.


----------



## Ian Holdich (15 Dec 2012)

I have some scum, I don't have algae? I have seen perfect tanks with scum, but no algae.


----------



## Antipofish (15 Dec 2012)

Ian Holdich said:
			
		

> I have some scum, I don't have algae? I have seen perfect tanks with scum, but no algae.



You don't get much more perfect that a certain expert's tanks on here, and even HE has scum with no algae at times.  So you are right from that angle Ian.  However, I also think that if you DO have algae it is likely to contribute or add to the amount of scum no ?  I am sure I have noticed in my tanks that when I get algal outbreaks the scum levels get worsen.  So I personally believe that scum is an indication of imbalance at some level.  And thats hardly surprising.  Very few of even the best tanks could be considered a perfect natural balance.  Does that sound right, or am I barking up the wrong tree ?   I could be rambling mindlessly for all I know since I have flu and a temperature   .


----------



## viktorlantos (15 Dec 2012)

Ian Holdich said:
			
		

> I have some scum, I don't have algae? I have seen perfect tanks with scum, but no algae.



Yup scum is for different reasons. Also many types there (oil, biofilm, foam etc). You may not have algae issue, but your filter is dirty, you put stress on your plant for some reason, using bad fish food etc. Million other reason is possible too. 

But very frequent to see the scum where you see algae.


----------



## Ian Holdich (15 Dec 2012)

I'm not sure about that victor tbh, my filter gets a thorough clean monthly, never a drop in flow. 

I still believe its the starch compounds due to the c02.


----------



## viktorlantos (15 Dec 2012)

Possible too just as with too much easy carbo daily etc. That's why i wrote there are too many possible reason behind the scum.


----------



## jojouk (16 Dec 2012)

Really nice


----------



## hotweldfire (16 Dec 2012)

jojouk said:
			
		

> Really nice



Ta   

Re: scum/algae, I think it is easy to confuse cause and effect here. My opinion is that both are the symptoms of poor plant health. The algae doesn't contribute to the scum, it just appears at the same time. I think the reason it appears more often in a high tech tank isn't directly due to co2. It is because everything, including growth and plant breakdown, is accelerated in these tanks so if the plants aren't healthy they'll leach faster than in a low tech tank. Hence more film.

Whilst there are no doubt other causes of the scum/film, I still think the primary cause is non-optimal plant health. I think this can still happen in tanks that look otherwise quite healthy (e.g. Mark's). 

In a high tech tank I suspect 9 times out of 10 this is down to a co2 issue. Given that the sense I've got from reading Clive and others is that the timing of co2 levels is just as important as the overall level of co2. Hence this notion of it being at optimum levels at lights on.

Thinking about this issue of plants being adapted to certain photoperiods, with a slow increase of light in the morning and a slow decrease in the evening, suddenly max co2 at lights on makes no sense to me. If plants wake up gradually (triggered by some light) and go to sleep gradually (triggered by how long they've been awake) surely they don't need optimum co2 at lights on? They won't need optimum co2 until they've woken up right? So I should stop stressing about ph readings at lights on and not turn the co2 on more than 3 hours before lights on?


----------



## Antipofish (16 Dec 2012)

One thing for sure, you should stop stressing about pH readings.  Clive has said time and again that its irrelevant in terms of plantcare.  But all this talk about "optimum CO2 level timing" makes me wonder if we are all better off running gas longer, if not 24/7, albeit at an adjusted rate.


----------



## jojouk (17 Dec 2012)

I am a complete newb to all this, and Im getting a pressurised setup very soon, and I am wondering about how long to have the CO2 on for, some have said all the time, but then some have said an hour before lights on and an hour after, but surely that will create pH swings? Is it not the idea to get a constant level of CO2 in the tank thus avoiding algae issues? Or does that just apply to the period when the plant is photosynthesising?

(sorry to jummp in this thread lol!)


----------



## hotweldfire (19 Dec 2012)

To the period that the plants are photosynthesising but Chris makes an interesting point. I have considered going to 24/7. Used to do this in my smallest tank and it did really well. In larger tanks this becomes extremely expensive. Although I think you may have misunderstood the purpose of PH readings Chris. I couldn't care less about PH. I'm only interested in it because it's the easiest way to record changes in co2 concentration (not overall co2 concentration mind).

Anyway quick photo update as promised:


17-12-12_1 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

17-12-12_2 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

17-12-12_4 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

17-12-12_3 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

17-12-12_5 by hotweldfire, on Flickr


----------



## Antipofish (19 Dec 2012)

Hey Sajid, yeah I did mate, I didn't cotton on to that being the reason.  The pics are awesome buddy, it looks SOO healthy.  I may need to buy some blyxa after Christmas


----------

