# Help with flow please



## Manu (21 Sep 2015)

Hi everybody, 

I'm having some issues with co2 and fert distribution around the tank. I've tried a lot of different things to improve the situation but I'm still not happy and I'm getting a bit of BBA. Luckily it's manageable but I would be really happy if you could maybe help me.

Here is a picture of the tank:





I've got two filters running with in-line co2 atomisers.
One is a JBL 1501 connected to the spray bar on the left side. The flow is horizontal. Flow rate is advertised at 1400l per hour.
The second filter is from co2 art. Its flow rate is advertised at 1200l per hour. It's connected to a lily pipe from co2 art which has a downward flow.
The tank is 200l but it's quite high, 50cm, and I think the flow at the bottom is not so good...and that's why I'm getting some BBA on the carpet plants...

Here are two pictures of the lily and the spray bar and one terrible drawing trying to explain the set up.


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## Manu (21 Sep 2015)

Here are the pictures (sorry, problem with tapatalk)






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## Manu (21 Sep 2015)

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## Manu (21 Sep 2015)

And the drawing:





So, the rotalas on the left are getting quite a bite of BBA too...

I would like to avoid adding more stuff in the tank if possible but maybe I can get a lily pipe that is longer, reaching the almost the bottom of the tank?

Any thoughts? 

PS: sorry for the many posts, I couldn't add more than one picture at a time...


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## pepedopolous (21 Sep 2015)

Reduce the light intensity so then flow/CO2/ferts become less important (easier to manage). You will still be able to grow nice _Rotala_ etc and have much less (or even no) BBA.

P


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## Bacms (21 Sep 2015)

You seem to have flow in opposite directions it would be better to have them on the same direction I believe. Also why are the holes in the spray bar not pointing in the same direction? 

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## Manu (21 Sep 2015)

pepedopolous said:


> Reduce the light intensity so then flow/CO2/ferts become less important (easier to manage). You will still be able to grow nice _Rotala_ etc and have much less (or even no) BBA.
> 
> P


Hi Pepedopolous,
I've already reduced the lights and I would like to keep them bright enough as from what I read, red plants need a minimum of light intensity to keep their leaves red. But I don't have anything to measure the amount of light I have in the tank...
As I said, I reduced the light by about 20% yesterday...
Thanks, Manu.


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## Manu (21 Sep 2015)

Bacms said:


> You seem to have flow in opposite directions it would be better to have them on the same direction I believe. Also why are the holes in the spray bar not pointing in the same direction?
> 
> Enviado do meu LG-V500 através de Tapatalk


Hi Bacms, 
What I didn't explain is that the tank is partly recessed in a wall so I'm limited whit where I can place the pipes,... Also, the pipe from the spray is connected to the bottom of the tank, so I can't place it wherever I would like...
What I am trying to achieve is a circular flow from top left, from the spray bar and then push down by the lily pipe flow. A clock wise motion. It kind of works but there is some areas where there is not flow like underneath the spray bar and down above the carpet, especially on the right front side...
Well spotted for the holes alignment  , I cleaned the tank in a rush yesterday and didn't put the spray bar properly 

Thanks for your help,
Manu 

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## Martin in Holland (22 Sep 2015)

In your case with your limited space for piping and such, I would lose the spray bar aim the output from left to right (at the back of your tank) and the lily pipe from right to left (at the front of your tank) in order to get a circular motion. Now your flow is working against each other.


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## Clint Hewitt (22 Sep 2015)

Can't you place the spray bar on the same side of the tank as the lily pipe?


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## Manu (22 Sep 2015)

Martin in China said:


> In your case with your limited space for piping and such, I would lose the spray bar aim the output from left to right (at the back of your tank) and the lily pipe from right to left (at the front of your tank) in order to get a circular motion. Now your flow is working against each other.


Thanks Martin,
I used to have the plastic lily pipe (supplied with the filter) instead of the spray bar but it gave a very strong and narrow jet. The plants at the bottom didn't move and co2 went straight to the top. I'm now thinking that maybe I could try and fit a glass lily pipe like this one:

http://www.co2art.co.uk/collections...de-glass-aquarium-outflow-lily-pipe-o17-16-22

Cut the glass after the 90° angle, before the upside-down "U" bend and fit it on the pipe coming from the bottom of the tank. Then it would be like you say, in the left rear corner, and I can leave the other lily pipe in the front right corner.
Do you think that would be good idea?
The next concern is cutting the glass without breaking it  
Cheers, Manu. 

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## Manu (22 Sep 2015)

Clint Hewitt said:


> Can't you place the spray bar on the same side of the tank as the lily pipe?


Hi Clint, 
The pipe work is going through the bottom glass panel of the tank, so that would mean blocking holes... And have more hose on the right side of the tank... 

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## Clint Hewitt (22 Sep 2015)

Manu said:


> Hi Clint,
> The pipe work is going through the bottom glass panel of the tank, so that would mean blocking holes... And have more hose on the right side of the tank...
> 
> Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk


I see, how about moving the spray bar to the back left, pointing towards the front of the tank and the lily pipe to the back right facing the spray bar? flow would be anti clock wise,
You may need to add a small powerhead near the front left pointing right (not sure)


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## Manu (22 Sep 2015)

Clint Hewitt said:


> I see, how about moving the spray bar to the back left, pointing towards the front of the tank and the lily pipe to the back right facing the spray bar? flow would be anti clock wise,
> You may need to add a small powerhead near the front left pointing right (not sure)


I can't really do that as the tank is visible from both front and rear and I would like to keep visible equipment to a minimum. But I've tried this though and it's seems to be quite good: as Martin suggested, I removed the spray bar and position the pipes so it goes along the back from left to right, and downward. Here is a picture:




It seems to work quite well. I'm thinking to get this lily pipe from co2 art:

http://www.co2art.co.uk/collections...de-glass-aquarium-outflow-lily-pipe-o13-12-16

I think it will help to get more flow at the bottom of the tank as at the moment the flow kind of the miss the first third from the right front corner.
The other think I will probably buy too is a skimmer as now I don't have any water movement on the surface:

http://www.co2art.co.uk/collections...cts/lily-pipe-surface-skimmer-o17mm-16mm-22mm

Also, I realise that most the BBA is on the older leaves of plants that I've moved recently... I think I should leave them alone and when the new growth is good enough, cut it and replant.

Cheers,
Manu 



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## Martin in Holland (23 Sep 2015)

I can not see if you still have some agitation on the surface, make sure you have to make gas exchange possible and to help with the scum on it.


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## Manu (23 Sep 2015)

Martin in China said:


> I can not see if you still have some agitation on the surface, make sure you have to make gas exchange possible and to help with the scum on it.


Thanks Martin,
There is no agitation on the surface at moment. I've tried to lift the lily pipe (opposite corner) but it's either nothing or too much agitation.

Would a skimmer be a good solution? Or do I still need surface agitation?

Sorry for all the questions, I spent hours reading on the forum but I can't really find the answer...

Cheers,
Manu 

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## Clint Hewitt (23 Sep 2015)

Manu said:


> Thanks Martin,
> There is no agitation on the surface at moment. I've tried to lift the lily pipe (opposite corner) but it's either nothing or too much agitation.
> 
> Would a skimmer be a good solution? Or do I still need surface agitation?
> ...


It will work for the protein scum provided there are no dead or "whirlpool" surface areas or corners, try to position it such that it compliments your new water flow,
place your drop checker near to where the BBA has reared it's ugly head, if only for awhile to see how the changes affect that area.


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## Martin in Holland (24 Sep 2015)

Clint Hewitt said:


> It will work for the protein scum provided there are no dead or "whirlpool" surface areas or corners, try to position it such that it compliments your new water flow,
> place your drop checker near to where the BBA has reared it's ugly head, if only for awhile to see how the changes affect that area.


Good advice right there.....
You don't need to place the outlet as low as you have now, if you get a good round motion going it will also get going round at the bottom.


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## Manu (24 Sep 2015)

Hi ya,

Thanks again for your help.
Here is a picture of the pipes fitted to the bottom of the tank, I thought it would help if you see the limitations I've got:



 



I have tried something slightly different this morning. I have put a small piece of spray bar but going toward the left back corner. This seems to give quite a good flow, it doesn't interfere with the lily pipe but the flow is rather on the half top, the riccia carpet on the rear of the tank doesn't get much...

Here is a (bad) video so you can see the flow :



I am still wondering if I should get this lily pipe from co2art :

http://www.co2art.co.uk/collections...de-glass-aquarium-outflow-lily-pipe-o17-16-22

Cut it so I have this :



 

And fit that instead of the spray bar...
I would love a tank flow simulator 

Thanks for your help 

Cheers,
Manu


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## Martin in Holland (25 Sep 2015)

Can't see pictures and Youtube is blocked in China .......
I tested my flow with some CaCO3 dissolved in water which give a cloudy fluid, you don't need much but it makes you flow very clear to see. Poor it infront of your filter outlets and see how the cloud moves. If you do this just before a big water change it also has almost no effect on your water quality.
If you can hide your filter outlet, I don't think you need to have lily pipes, I only used one on a smaller tank before because it was at the front of that tank....they look cool though.


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## Manu (25 Sep 2015)

Martin in China said:


> Can't see pictures and Youtube is blocked in China .......



No worries, you're not missing much really  
Are you saying that you cannot see any pictures on the forum or just the ones I posted?

I'll give a go with the calcium carbonate, thanks for the tip  

Here is a picture of the skimmer just been installed:





And here is a picture of the back left corner where I have fitted the short piece of spray bar:




The flow seems to be really good now  

Cheers,
Manu

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## Martin in Holland (27 Sep 2015)

Nice skimmer, that one will help for sure. This time I can see pictures....sometimes I can, sometimes I can't....need to get my VPN working again.


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## Manu (15 Oct 2015)

Martin in China said:


> Nice skimmer, that one will help for sure. This time I can see pictures....sometimes I can, sometimes I can't....need to get my VPN working again.


Hi Martin,

Have you tried The tor network? I wonder if it would help you to browse anything you like.

For my flow problem, I think I've got now best solution for my set up.
I've put back the spray bar on the top left side and I've got rid of the lily pipe (and the skimmer). Instead of the lily pipe, the  flow from the second filter is now split in two hoses going to outlets as you can see on the pictures:






Those are blowing the water at the bottom of the tank creating a circular motion.
What is even better now is that the co2 mist is released at the bottom and stay longer in the water so as more time to dissolve.
I've ordered acrylic pipes and will build something nice hopefully  

Cheers,
Manu 

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## Martin in Holland (15 Oct 2015)

Bending the acrylic is the challenge now. I did it a few times, filled the pipes with salt and heated it slow...very, very slow


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