# Sick Gourami - Help!



## LancsRick (12 Jul 2012)

Came down this morning to find one of my 4 Honey Gouramis appears ill.

The other 3 are absolutely fine in appearance and movement. No other sick fish/inverts in the tank.

The "sick" one appears bloated, in a uniform manner (not just a sphere on the lower abdomen), and has developed a "fat chin", with an additional curve from the front of the pelvic/ventral fin up to the mouth (think of a fat person!). It's the swelling under the chin which has got me really confused, since surely that doesn't tie in with either swim bladder or gut issues?

It is still able to swim, and has been going up to the surface, and has some level of swim control since it's still upright. That said, its swimming appears quite "lazy". Slight loss of colour intensity over the body of the fish.

I've dosed with Melafix this morning as a precaution. Fish diet is flake, pellets, blanched cucumber, and once a week frozen bloodworm.

Any and all suggestions welcome please, would like to give the little fella the best chance I can!


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## awtong (12 Jul 2012)

Do the scales have a "pine cone" appearance on the body.  Fluid retention in tissues can indicate dropsy and scales falling off or looking odd on the body are another symptom.

The unfortunate thing with Dropsy is once noticed physically it has often damaged the internal organs and treatments aren't very effective.

Hopefully your treatment works!

Andy


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## san-ho-zay (12 Jul 2012)

Melafix can cause problems with gouramies and other fish with a labyrinth organ:

http://www.fish-as-pets.com/2008/12/mel ... -fish.html

Totally agree with Andy's comments on dropsy -- it's more of a symptom than a disease and the prognosis is usually poor because it often indicates some chronic internal failure that means the fish can't maintain the correct fluid balance.


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## LancsRick (12 Jul 2012)

It wasn't pine cone'd this morning (checked for that), but I'll see what it's like this evening.

Poor fella, hope he pulls through.


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## awtong (12 Jul 2012)

san-ho-zay said:
			
		

> Melafix can cause problems with gouramies and other fish with a labyrinth organ:
> 
> http://www.fish-as-pets.com/2008/12/mel ... -fish.html
> 
> Totally agree with Andy's comments on dropsy -- it's more of a symptom than a disease and the prognosis is usually poor because it often indicates some chronic internal failure that means the fish can't maintain the correct fluid balance.



Yep usually the kidney's or liver.

Andy


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## hinch (12 Jul 2012)

not pregnant is it some gourami's are mouthbrooders and would look bloated/mis-shaped around the jaw/chin area if holding a brood.


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## LancsRick (12 Jul 2012)

He seems to have pine cone'd during the day . Pictures below. Looks like Dropsy to me, any other diagnostic offerings? Any advice on best course of action?


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## awtong (12 Jul 2012)

That looks like classic dropsy to me I am very sad to say.  The fish will have multiple organ failure and issues.  If it was my fish I would euthanise it but feel free to get other opinions.

Andy


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## LancsRick (12 Jul 2012)

Damn . Anything kinder than freezing for euthanising?

From my understanding and reading, dropsy isn't necessarily linked to any set cause, so my other fish should be fine? They all look fine....


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## san-ho-zay (12 Jul 2012)

Looks in a bad way and sad to say I agree.  

Hard time for any fishkeeper ... 

http://www.fishchannel.com/fish-health/euthanasia.aspx

I've never had a fish with this condition affect other healthy fish.


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## LancsRick (12 Jul 2012)

He's in the freezer, thanks for the second opinions though guys.

Hate seeing animals in suffering . Don't mind the death bit, but hate suffering .


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## awtong (12 Jul 2012)

This is a problem usually specific to one fish so the others should be ok.

Some people use a clove oil mix but I am not sure of the specifics.  Other ways would be a sharp blade to severe the spinal cord or perhaps use some kind of priest like you would on trout.

Freezing is not humane it takes the fish a long time to die from slowly forming ice crystals.

Andy


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## LancsRick (12 Jul 2012)

Ok, I'll priest him then. Don't have any clove oil so seems the only humane option left to me.


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## hinch (12 Jul 2012)

awtong said:
			
		

> Freezing is not humane it takes the fish a long time to die from slowly forming ice crystals



not entirely true. rapid cooling of water for a tropical fish acts as an anasthetic (sp?) the fish simply goes unconcious (quite quickly) and then dies in its sleep.

decapitation isn't really a good idea as many fish can live on after decapitation for quite a while so you'd then have to stick a pin into the skull and mush up the brain to instantly kill them after decapitation (messy)


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## AAB (12 Jul 2012)

I had exactly same problem with two of my dwarf gouramis over the last year, it was very distressing to watch them gradually getting worse and worse.  I use ice cold water in a bowl and drop them in - not nice I know, but they do usually die within 5-10 seconds.  I stopped keeping gouramis now.


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## san-ho-zay (12 Jul 2012)

It's not a gourami thing AAB, it can happen to any fish as far as I know. Barbs often go this way in my experience.


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## AAB (12 Jul 2012)

san-ho-zay said:
			
		

> It's not a gourami thing AAB, it can happen to any fish as far as I know. Barbs often go this way in my experience.



That may be the case but I have only had this issue with gouramis. I have never kept barbs so don't know about that.


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## spill50 (12 Jul 2012)

Sorry to hear about your gourami, never nice loosing a fish. On the euthanasia thing I find oil of clove is pretty good (well, as good as these things can get) a small amount puts them to sleep pretty quick.

You can pick up small bottles of it from holland and barrat. Good for tooth ache as well  as its anaesthetic. Tastes horrible though makes me want to gag.


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## awtong (13 Jul 2012)

hinch said:
			
		

> awtong said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Putting it in the freezer is not the same as putting it in rapidly cooling water then in my opinion plus in the freezer it will be struggling to breathe for a short while causing more stress.

If you severe the spinal cord / brain region at the back of the head with a sharp blade I don't find it lives on and have never had to mush brains around.  Doing that is surely quicker than the freezer treatment?  Whatever technique people use is surely quicker and less suffering than leaving the poor creature in the tank till it finally succumbs to its illness.  So the OP has done what he can to limit the suffering IMO.

Andy


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## LancsRick (13 Jul 2012)

I'll priest again in the future, but can see that being impossible for small fish so I'm going to get some clove oil.

Thank you for all the advice in this thread - I realise it's hardly the cheeriest subject, but it's an important thing to have and to share knowledge on.


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## ian_m (13 Jul 2012)

I have an in sink macerator that finishes sick fish off very nicely.


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## Alastair (13 Jul 2012)

I usually fill a cold jug full of water with as many ice cubes as possible, let it sit for 5 minutes then drop the fish in a small tub of tank water and pop in the jug. Almost instantly puts them to sleep. 

Sorry to hear of your loss mate, I hate having to put sick fish to sleep 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tim Harrison (13 Jul 2012)

IMO the only real humane way to euthanize fish is by pithing, which is basically scrambling the fishes brain with pin. This page gives more info - http://www.fishchannel.com/fish-health/euthanasia.aspx


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## spill50 (13 Jul 2012)

Wait, so your saying putting them gently to sleep with oil of clove isn't humane?

But subjecting them to the time it takes to get them out of the water and holding them long enough to stab them in the head and swirl it around is humane?

That page says it is humane, but it's not the only way that is.


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## Tim Harrison (13 Jul 2012)

spill50 said:
			
		

> Wait, so your saying putting them gently to sleep with oil of clove isn't humane?
> 
> But subjecting them to the time it takes to get them out of the water and holding them long enough to stab them in the head and swirl it around is humane?



How do you know that is the case? 

There is a distinct lack of research to back the clove oil hypothesis. 

Most people do not have the stomach for humane euthanasia so they invent sanitized scenarios that appear more acceptable to their own sensibilities. 

It's typical of the anthropomorphic displacement which is particularly prevalent among animal lovers in this country.


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## spill50 (13 Jul 2012)

Troi said:
			
		

> How do you know that is the case?
> 
> There is a distinct lack of research to back the clove oil hypothesis.



The use of clove oil for anaesthesia has been well documented actually 

http://dels-old.nas.edu/ilar_n/ilarjour ... eiffer.pdf

Page 12 describes it quite well as just one example.



			
				Troi said:
			
		

> Most people do not have the stomach for humane euthanasia so they invent sanitized scenarios that appear more acceptable to their own sensibilities.



Probably true but would you put your dog to sleep or behead it?


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## Tim Harrison (13 Jul 2012)

It's just my opinion from actual experience. I have euthanased fish using various methods (including clove oil) over the years both as a hobbyist and through the course of my parasitological research. Decapitation followed swiftly by pithing struck me as the most humane method...

...I don't have a dog.


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## spill50 (13 Jul 2012)

No neither do I  it was just an analogy.

I guess in the grand scheme of things it totally depends on the species of fish. Some methods would suit some species better than others.


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## Tim Harrison (13 Jul 2012)

spill50 said:
			
		

> No neither do I  it was just an analogy



Not a good one, even taking in to account athropomorphism! Pithing is exactly how we kill large mammals before they end up on our dinner plates...a bolt through the brain!!!


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## spill50 (13 Jul 2012)

Yes but link you posted suggested stunning, beheading and then pithing all of which takes time. Which which is different from going straight to a bolt in the brain.

I think you missed my point though I wasn't disagreeing that it was a humane way, I was disagreeing that it was the only humane way.


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## Tim Harrison (13 Jul 2012)

spill50 said:
			
		

> Yes but link you posted suggested stunning, beheading and then pithing all of which takes time. Which which is different from going straight to a bolt in the brain.
> 
> I think you missed my point though I wasn't disagreeing that it was a humane way, I was disagreeing that it was the only humane way.



Thanks for sharing your opinion. It's always a pleasant surprise when someone stands by the conviction of their own beliefs.


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## spill50 (13 Jul 2012)

Likewise, I do value your opinion and experience, which I'm sure is more than i have. Even if it didn't read like it


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## Tim Harrison (14 Jul 2012)

No worries


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