# A noob vs some hardest plants



## eminor (12 Dec 2021)

Hello, I'm making a little diary to tell my madness, or rather a certain love or neurosis of the difficulty in a general way.

The tank i'm presenting is a one year old tank,  it has suffered and survived BBA's, Green Water, diatoms and lot's of trouble. This tank started almost at the same time as my arrival on this forum. I changed lot of "scape" in it

My goal is to achieve a Dutch type aquarium, there are in this tank some very difficult types of plants, here are the characteristics of the setup:

tank size : 60*30*30 around 51 liters
Lighting: 2*24 T5-HO 3000k + purple @25cm ~ 120+ PAR
Filter: Eden 521 800 L/h + circulation pump in the bottom left of 200 l/h
CO2: Nicrew inline atomizer
Soil : Sand + jbl aquabasis plus
Water : rain + tap water, KH ~ 6-7, ph around 7
Fertilizer : EI (KNO3 : 15 ppm, PO4 : 2 ppm, K:  20ppm (using K2SO4 + PO4 to reach it), Fe : 0.5 ppm, Magnesium : 10 ppm)

One of the hardest in that setup is that i only have access in the front, and little on the back
12 december 2021 :

this is the tank right now :

Easiest to medium plant are doing kind of well






flow representation :

red is the main filter pattern, yellow is the circulation pump to try to maximize the co2 and nutrients to the bottom leaves





















But Myriophyllum Tuberculatum going to turn me crazy, there is hope tough, you can see some new shoots, i hope it won't melt






Cabomba furcata is also so hard for me, so far it's kind of ok





the extra light seems to please the pogostemon stellatus





there is myriophyllum red stem on the left of the pogostemon, it's supposed to grow like weed, definitely not here 









i tough the next plant was ammana senegalensis, but it really doesn't look like that at all, that's one of the plant that really love the tank


----------



## MichaelJ (12 Dec 2021)

eminor said:


> Hello, I'm making a little diary to tell my madness, or rather a certain love or neurosis of the difficulty in a general way.
> 
> The tank i'm presenting is a one year old tank, it has suffered and survived BBA's, Green Water, diatoms and lot's of trouble. This tank started almost at the same time as my arrival on this forum. I changed lot of "scape" in it
> 
> My goal is to achieve a Dutch type aquarium, there are in this tank some very difficult types of plants, here are the characteristics of the setup:


Hi @eminor Its great to see your tank is coming along!  It really takes persistence to make it work considering the issues you've faced along the way  👍   If you want to tweak a bit, as it grows in I would would up the Fe (to 1ppm/wk) and probably the the PO4 to 5ppm/wk, but you're probably just fine with what your doing for now.

Cheers,
Michael


----------



## erwin123 (13 Dec 2021)

I think you have all the necessary conditions for success - CO2, flow, light, EI ferts, so I look forward to seeing regular photo updates, so we can see the hard plants like tuberculatum and furcata grow!

you mentioned that you have a purple light in addition to 2 x T5 HO? is this a marine T5 bulb or something else? there's a lot of discussion about the newest high tech LEDs, but the power of inexpensive T5s to deliver huge amounts of PAR is sometimes overlooked


----------



## eminor (13 Dec 2021)

MichaelJ said:


> Hi @eminor Its great to see your tank is coming along!  It really takes persistence to make it work considering the issues you've faced along the way  👍   If you want to tweak a bit, as it grows in I would would up the Fe (to 1ppm/wk) and probably the the PO4 to 5ppm/wk, but you're probably just fine with with your doing for now.
> 
> Cheers,
> Michael


Yes the tuberculatum seems to like Fe a lot, a lot of persistence for sure, but i think that to improve myself a lot i need to go into the devil, i mean high light is going to push me forward



erwin123 said:


> I think you have all the necessary conditions for success - CO2, flow, light, EI ferts, so I look forward to seeing regular photo updates, so we can see the hard plants like tuberculatum and furcata grow!
> 
> you mentioned that you have a purple light in addition to 2 x T5 HO? is this a marine T5 bulb or something else? there's a lot of discussion about the newest high tech LEDs, but the power of inexpensive T5s to deliver huge amounts of PAR is sometimes overlooked


i have lots of bulb, on this setup i have sylvania fhe 830 24w 3000K, and amtra power plant (pinkish) i have it because it makes the orange glow, love it =)

i've never seen most beautiful light than t5 in my life on my opinion for sure =)


----------



## eminor (22 Dec 2021)

hello, some updates

I increased the temp from 23 to 26°c, i reduced the co2 because my shrimp where going to die, bba came out... but nothing crazy

i moved the furcata in the center, full light, it grows well, new stems coming from the soil, red/pink leaves





the myriophyllum tuberculatum seems ok but the growth is not fast, i increased the iron from 0.5 to 1 ppm, we'll see







the ammania seems ok still can't figure out the exact species





i introduced a new rotola which i don't know exactly the var neither, maybe some indica bonsai ?





the pogostemon stellatus is growing but i don't know how to get it big and thick, it looks like baby plant...





there is a myriophyllum behind the reineckii with red stem, it's supposed to grow like weed, so far the stem is red which is a good sign





the limnophila bush has grown so much, i trimmed a bit though


----------



## erwin123 (22 Dec 2021)

Good job on the Furcata. Not sure what happened to the Tuberculatum. My tank water temp is also 26 degrees though I would like it to be 25 degrees. 🧊

I agree that the Ammannia doesn't look like Senegelansis. Let me know if you find out what it is. I'm discovering that *A. Senegelansis *is a plant that grows BIG 

The Rotala is likely *Rotala Rotundifolia *because of the red emersed stems, should be easy to grow.

If you like a challenge, you can try *R. Wallichii *_(easy to grow, even in low tech, but hard to turn pink), _or *R. Macrandra Green *(try to achieve the beautiful Yellow/gold colour see Libba's journal:  Libba's 60P ), or *R. Macrandra 'Variegated' *.

I am dosing 0.35ppm Fe so I recently got EDDHA-Fe in order to add 0.1ppm weekly to my substrate to make it 0.45ppm per weekly, closer to the EI target. What type of chelated iron are you using?


----------



## eminor (22 Dec 2021)

erwin123 said:


> Good job on the Furcata. Not sure what happened to the Tuberculatum. My tank water temp is also 26 degrees though I would like it to be 25 degrees. 🧊
> 
> I agree that the Ammannia doesn't look like Senegelansis. Let me know if you find out what it is. I'm discovering that *A. Senegelansis *is a plant that grows BIG
> 
> ...


wallichii is coming don't worry, macandra too, weird thing is that i can't grow pinnatifada in this tank, i had it growing like hell in other tank with diy co2, alsmost no ferts...

i use kind of tnc trace, really similar though, i also have easy life ferro but never used it, maybe i should ?

Tuberculatum is the hardest plant so far, i really don't know what she needs to grow fast, i know she can grow 2 inches a day, should be a co2 issue again...

some website say that myriophyllum grow well in 20-24°c range, don't know if it's true...

I know that on this forum ceg told me that kelvin temperature dosn't matter but when i added 6500k + pink bulbs i had way faster growth, now i use 3000k + pink, growth is ok but nothing similar and my co2 with the 6500k bulb was really bad, that's weird


----------



## erwin123 (4 Jan 2022)

Hi, hows the Furcata / Tuberculatum / Rotala Rotundifolia doing? Pls update with pics?

I'm wondering if the Ammannia in your tank is Pedicatella but still in emersed form - how long has it been in your tank? Should have changed form already: Ammannia pedicellata 'Golden' - NEW!!! - Dennerle Plants


----------



## eminor (4 Jan 2022)

erwin123 said:


> Hi, hows the Furcata / Tuberculatum / Rotala Rotundifolia doing? Pls update with pics?
> 
> I'm wondering if the Ammannia in your tank is Pedicatella but still in emersed form - how long has it been in your tank? Should have changed form already: Ammannia pedicellata 'Golden' - NEW!!! - Dennerle Plants


well i restarted the tank, there is still ammania, furcata and tuberculatum which seems to be in a way better health in fluval stratum soil =)

i'll upload pictures


----------



## eminor (5 Jan 2022)

here's some news

I changed the soil to fluval stratum, way easier to work with, i changed a bit the scape even if the hard plant stay in there =)

the pictures there are 1 week of growth, i(m using ceg spray bar method, exept my filter is not strong enough to move a large spray bar, so one in the middle seems good so far, all plant are moving. i use one t5ho 3000K because i love warm color, that's why plant seems yellow/orange a lot

The ammania which i still don't know what kind is it is growing well




the rotala h'ra are doing great, at least 7-10cm in a week




the pogostemon stellata seems to love the active soil !!




there is the myriophyllum aquaticum red stem, growing fine, i don't really know how thick it become




the tuberculatum is not leaving leaves anymore, the front stem is 1 weeks old, it was barely above the substrate




pogostemon erectus introduced, and behind new rotala orange juice




the pinnatifada which i wasn't able to grow at all in sand are now thriving there !!!




cuba is growing, nice color etc, same with tripartita



the furcata had mostly nothing left, you can see a great red new leaf !! it looks promising, on the left, i introduced a corymbosa, which i'm gonna to trim it really a lot to keep it under control


----------



## erwin123 (5 Jan 2022)

eminor said:


> here's some news
> 
> I changed the soil to fluval stratum, way easier to work with, i changed a bit the scape even if the hard plant stay in there =)
> 
> ...



Great that the aquasoil has helped your plants grow better! Always watch your 'difficult' plant as they are the ones that tell you whether your tank is ok or not  

If your H'ra has grown 7-10cm and the new growth is green - is it H'ra or Rotala Green? Because H'ra is such a fast growing plant, it 'converts' to coloured form pretty fast.


----------



## eminor (6 Jan 2022)

erwin123 said:


> Great that the aquasoil has helped your plants grow better! Always watch your 'difficult' plant as they are the ones that tell you whether your tank is ok or not
> 
> If your H'ra has grown 7-10cm and the new growth is green - is it H'ra or Rotala Green? Because H'ra is such a fast growing plant, it 'converts' to coloured form pretty fast.


tuberculatum and furcata and stellata are growing really well, which is a nice surprise

well, i think it's h'ra, it takes long before turning red, maybe not enough light ?


----------



## plantnoobdude (6 Jan 2022)

eminor said:


> tuberculatum and furcata and stellata are growing really well, which is a nice surprise
> 
> well, i think it's h'ra, it takes long before turning red, maybe not enough light ?


h'ra needs stress to become red. either super strong light, or nutrient limitation, most commonly p or N.


----------



## erwin123 (6 Jan 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> h'ra needs stress to become red. either super strong light, or nutrient limitation, most commonly p or N.


true, but Eminor has 7-10cm of new growth under 150par from a double t5ho fixture over a 51 litre tank.  

If you don't limit N, they should still turn pinkish under high light.


----------



## erwin123 (7 Jan 2022)

This is my Rotala Indica which matches the photo in Flowgrow:








						Rotala indica - Indian toothcup
					

There is quite a bit of confusion around the name Rotala indica in aquaristics. The reason for this is, that in 1960, Rotala rotundifolia was imported under the erroneous name "Rotala indica". Even today, especially reddish forms ...




					www.flowgrow.de
				




The Rotala Indicas in your photo look different....


----------



## eminor (10 Jan 2022)

i have tons of light, tons of co2 and i now think that my distribution is almost perfect, hard plant are growing, i won't play with nutrients limitation right now, i'e love to try, but i want to wait that other plants are growing well before.

It's either possible that I don't have 150 par, par meter are not cheap, i can't be sure, I follow some charts, I'm over 100 par that for sure, still my eyes might be wrong

Rotala walichii, myriophyllum monta... and prospernica palustris cuba are coming this week, few times ago i noticed the myriophyllum with red stem that's not growing fast, it's the myriophyllum brasiliensis which is way harder that standart aquaticum form

my nephew which have the exact same plant, he's 7 years old, he don't bother much, no fertilizer, no co2, plant are suffering a lot. for exemple, he have the ammania in his tank, the ammania is really pink/red, mine is yellow/orange

Hemianthus cuba is ok



tripartita too




Ammania seems ok still not red/pink like my nephew




i don't really know which kind of rotala it is, i know that it can turn orange, already did, but this time they not willing to do it



pogostemon stellata is growing well but no under pink leaves




that's the myriophyllum which i think is brasiliensis, it grows okay, not fast tought


----------



## erwin123 (10 Jan 2022)

eminor said:


> i have tons of light, tons of co2 and i now think that my distribution is almost perfect, hard plant are growing, i won't play with nutrients limitation right now, i'e love to try, but i want to wait that other plants are growing well before.
> 
> It's either possible that I don't have 150 par, par meter are not cheap, i can't be sure, I follow some charts, I'm over 100 par that for sure, still my eyes might be wrong


Yes, wonder why your Rotala is still so green if you have so much light and CO2....
The Ammannia is a weird one. It really looks like the emersed Ammannia 'golden' when compared to the photos in the Dennerle website... but it has been in your tank for months so why hasn't it converted to submersed form? Maybe its something else entirely?

Anyway, Rotala Wallichii will be a very interesting experience to grow. It can grow easily with no CO2 so it is actually an easy plant... but it has this very odd behaviour - it can stunt within 24 hours if your parameters are unstable, doesn't matter if you have high light, high CO2 and EI dosing... it will stunt.  So this is a plant that forces you to keep your tank stable and not be constantly changing things.


----------



## eminor (11 Jan 2022)

erwin123 said:


> Yes, wonder why your Rotala is still so green if you have so much light and CO2....
> The Ammannia is a weird one. It really looks like the emersed Ammannia 'golden' when compared to the photos in the Dennerle website... but it has been in your tank for months so why hasn't it converted to submersed form? Maybe its something else entirely?
> 
> Anyway, Rotala Wallichii will be a very interesting experience to grow. It can grow easily with no CO2 so it is actually an easy plant... but it has this very odd behaviour - it can stunt within 24 hours if your parameters are unstable, doesn't matter if you have high light, high CO2 and EI dosing... it will stunt.  So this is a plant that forces you to keep your tank stable and not be constantly changing things.



well, this is ammania 100% certain, in my nephew tank it seems like gracilis, same shape, it's immersed form on the picture, you can see the emersed form on other pictures. 

I think i'm gonna improve quicker with such difficulties, i hope


----------



## erwin123 (11 Jan 2022)

eminor said:


> well, this is ammania 100% certain, in my nephew tank it seems like gracilis, same shape, it's immersed form on the picture, you can see the emersed form on other pictures.
> 
> I think i'm gonna improve quicker with such difficulties, i hope











My Gracilis looks very different. Both are huge monster plants  (left - Senegelansis, right - Gracilis)
Behind them there is one Proserpinaca and the Wallichii - I have managed to stunt them when adjusting my CO2....


----------



## eminor (11 Jan 2022)

erwin123 said:


> My Gracilis looks very different. Both are huge monster plants  (left - Senegelansis, right - Gracilis)
> Behind them there is one Proserpinaca and the Wallichii - I have managed to stunt them when adjusting my CO2....


maybe i have the nesae golden ?


----------



## erwin123 (11 Jan 2022)

eminor said:


> maybe i have the nesae golden ?


it looks like the emersed form of nesea golden on the Dennerle website, but after 1 month in your tank under high CO2 and high light, it should have converted to submersed form already. maybe you can take another pic and post a plant ID request for the experts to help....


----------



## dw1305 (11 Jan 2022)

Hi all,


Stan510 said:


> I saw a vid that said what is called Rotala rotundifolia is really R. indica. Its named because EMERSED GROWTH has round leaves. What's in the photo is what I have also,what the video called the TRUE Rotala indica..it makes round leaves underwater. I've growing this plant underwater for a couple of years.


You need them to flower <"for a definitive ID">.  You may be able to grow them outside? Where I'm pretty sure they will flower for you.

We have a <"couple of threads"> on _Rotala_  spp. naming.

This is <"_Rotala indica_"> (syn. _Rotala_ "bonzai", _Ammania_ "bonzai") - courtesy of @SRP3006






and this is <"_Rotala rotundifolia_"> courtesy of @Kezzab .





cheers Darrel


----------



## eminor (12 Jan 2022)

hi, rotala walichii, palustris cuba, myriophyllum mato... are in the tank, i increased the light, even the tuberculatum is pearling !!!

After a single day, there is new growth on every plant, looks good...

2 t5ho @ 20cm above the water, that's high light, i live risky but my co2 and distribution is near perfect right now,  but as ceg always tell, always suspect co2 issue, that's what try to do my best, pictures coming soon.

if the tuberculatum is growing, everything will grow in there...

questions :

i have active soil, i want to clean it a bit but i'm afraid that i could remove some "soil active organic things", do you think i can ?

i use inline atomizer, i tried it on the outlet, there is so many bubbles looks like champagne, i even tried to put it on the in, same, how could i reduce the bubbles effect ? thx


----------



## erwin123 (12 Jan 2022)

eminor said:


> hi, rotala walichii, palustris cuba, myriophyllum mato... are in the tank, i increased the light, even the tuberculatum is pearling !!!
> 
> After a single day, there is new growth on every plant, looks good...
> 
> ...



Thats great to hear your Tuberculatum is growing... hope you can make it turn from reddish brown to red! Don't forget to post photos.

Since you always had 2 x T5HO, how did you increase your light? By changing to a new bulb or something else?

My CO2 to my inline atomiser is only 1.5 bubbles per second, so the amount of visible bubbles in my tank is not much. I keep my drop checker colour green. I guess your drop checker is yellow if you have that many bubbles in your tank? If you have a lot of CO2, just be careful if you have shrimp clean up crew in your tank.


----------



## eminor (13 Jan 2022)

erwin123 said:


> Thats great to hear your Tuberculatum is growing... hope you can make it turn from reddish brown to red! Don't forget to post photos.
> 
> Since you always had 2 x T5HO, how did you increase your light? By changing to a new bulb or something else?
> 
> My CO2 to my inline atomiser is only 1.5 bubbles per second, so the amount of visible bubbles in my tank is not much. I keep my drop checker colour green. I guess your drop checker is yellow if you have that many bubbles in your tank? If you have a lot of CO2, just be careful if you have shrimp clean up crew in your tank.


i adjust the height of the fixture, from 30cm to 15cm, it increase the PAR

well yes my drop checker turn yellow but shrimp are okay, there is a lot of surface agitation


----------



## erwin123 (14 Jan 2022)

thats great, look forward to seeing the photos, especially the new leaves on your Tuberculatum? presume its turning red already with all the CO2 and light. I've been trying to turn Wallichii pink but maybe my lighting is not bright enough. I prefer to keep my drop checker Green/Lime-green rather than yellow, so I hope its the light rather than CO2 than turns plants red/pink 😅


----------



## eminor (15 Jan 2022)

some updates, light is really strong there, i think there is more than 150 par, plant are growing fine, i changed the scape, that's kind it's final form, i also changed the background to black

You can see prospernica palustris cuba which is growing really fast and the color is incredible, such a beautifull plant.

The CO2 is insane in there, drop checker yellow, if i increase a bit, the shrimps are gonna die, they did few weeks ago   it's a sweet spot, no sign of stress, i know how it looks now, i learned it the bad way. i also have a lot of surface agitation now, i use way more co2 but i think it worth it 

i know that plant don't need lot of light to grow but i think they need lot to get good color, or i could limit nitrogen but it will be too risky right now





new leaves after only 2 days...




welcome to the rotala walichii !! twice the size in 2 days... the plant is pink that's great








tuberculatum is still the hardest but new leaves are really red, on the left, the pogostemon erectus have a lot of new growth but it's slow...




new ludwiga arcuata in vitro, i know that's a background plant but i want to try something there




new ludwiga brevipes which looks like arcuata but thinner



myriophyllum mato to help against algae mixed with myriophyllum brasiliensis, the mato is growing at least 4 cm a day... furcata is behind, you also kind see limnophila hippuroides in vitro behind




look how bushy the h'ra become behind =)


----------



## plantnoobdude (15 Jan 2022)

very good growth. looks nice.


----------



## erwin123 (16 Jan 2022)

good growth, look forward to seeing your next photo update to see how much they've grown.

if your Wallichii turns pink and your 'H'ra' stays green despite 150 PAR, I'm sort of suspecting that its Rotala Green, not H'ra.


----------



## eminor (16 Jan 2022)

erwin123 said:


> good growth, look forward to seeing your next photo update to see how much they've grown.
> 
> if your Wallichii turns pink and your 'H'ra' stays green despite 150 PAR, I'm sort of suspecting that its Rotala Green, not H'ra.


since i increased the light, the color start to change, a bit of orange/red in it


----------



## eminor (20 Jan 2022)

i'm gonna switch from EI to lean dosing, i had better results back then, coloration with lean dosing is way better


----------



## eminor (29 Jan 2022)

hey, here's some news,

i improved the co2 to the next level (for my skill), lot of surface agitation, and of course alot of co2, by doing that i can really inject a lot of co2. i reduced the temperature to 22°c to improve O2 and to get a larger error room. sorry for the blurry pictures.

I use my diy led fixture because I can control the light, i only use 30% of it ( 180 led 5630, cri 97, 40w with 60° lenses) there is way more light than the two t5ho righ now, insane...
at 100% it looks like there is the sun above the tank, but i'm not that crazy =) since i switched to led, every single plant are pearling like crazy...

the limnophila hippuroide takes forever to take it's sumbersed form, they are so tiny in vitro thought, but it's really slow so far

here's the myriophyllum tuberculatum, there was some staghorn of it, i fixed it, it grows really great now =)





the myriophyllum red stem was really not good, now it's growing like weed, the myriophyllum montagrossens which is just behind is a temporary plant, i use it as an algae fighter, as soon as the red stem is large enough i'm gonna remove the other. the montagrossense is growing so fast, i need to trim it every 4 days





the pogostemon erectus start to grow !! you can see the rotala orange juice which i trimmed, some are getting orange =)




here's the ludwiga brevipes





the prospernica palustris cuba which i trimmed, it grows fast




behind, the rotala h'ra i think which turn yellow, it's getting bushy, yhe pinnatifada on the left of the picture is getting big



and the beautifull rotala walichii which is growing fast, i trimmed it actually, the longest stem is 2 weeks old i think...




the cuba is okay








the arcuata is growing


----------



## erwin123 (13 Feb 2022)

Hey Eminor, its been 2 weeks since your last update.  Please share updated photos here and in the lean dosing thread: Lean dosing pros and cons 

Plantnoobdude has a similar type of tank so you can compare results of different lean dosing recipes.


----------



## eminor (13 Feb 2022)

erwin123 said:


> Hey Eminor, its been 2 weeks since your last update.  Please share updated photos here and in the lean dosing thread: Lean dosing pros and cons
> 
> Plantnoobdude has a similar type of tank so you can compare results of different lean dosing recipes.


hey, it's coming tomorrow =)


----------



## erwin123 (17 Feb 2022)

eminor said:


> hey, it's coming tomorrow =)



thats great, look forward to seeing the photos!


----------



## eminor (17 Feb 2022)

hi, here's the update, some plant had hard time to swith to lean dosing, i also fixed my unstable co2, needle valve was the issue, now it's stable, no more bba or else so far. keep in mind that i trimmed a lot, to get bushier aspect of plants, so you could think that the growth is slow which is true for tuberculatum actually but for other plant they grow really fast =)

pogostemon erectus finally kicks in !!! looks greats, there's algae on the emersed part of it though, staghorn i think for long time, in front there is ludwigia arcuata which i trimmed




here's the rotala macandra which i bought so cheap, the plant is almost dead actually, i had it like that, there is bubble on it which is a good sign =) do someone know which variety it could be ?




i trimmed pinnatifada which grow like weed




i trimmed also the palustis cuba, she's loving the tank actually




walichii is okay, i trimmed it to get some stem








myriophyllum is growing like weed really, i need to trim it every few days, behind you can see the limnophila hippuroide which finally growing !!



i trimmed the cuba, she's fine




rotala orange juice getting her colors =)




the rotala which i think is h'ra or colora is growing so fast that it need to be trimmed every weeks


----------



## erwin123 (18 Feb 2022)

Thanks for the update. If you have 150+par your Wallichii , Tuberculatum and Palustris Cuba should have turned red already.  

Actually Wallichii doesn't need that much light to turn pink/red, so I'm wondering if it has anything to do with your lean dosing, because the Wallichii looks rather narrow - if you give it sufficient light/nutrition/CO2, it should be wider.

Your Macrandra (looks like Macrandra Green) should be turning a nice golden yellow soon as well  - this is the photo from Libba's journal: 



			https://www.ukaps.org/forum/attachments/20211126_145239-jpg.177744/
		









						Libba's 60P
					

What colour is the dc going? In this picture from 1st October it looks yellow/clear.  Might be an idea to get the tank and co2 stable before adding any more critters.   Thanks.



					www.ukaps.org


----------



## eminor (18 Feb 2022)

erwin123 said:


> Thanks for the update. If you have 150+par your Wallichii , Tuberculatum and Palustris Cuba should have turned red already.
> 
> Actually Wallichii doesn't need that much light to turn pink/red, so I'm wondering if it has anything to do with your lean dosing, because the Wallichii looks rather narrow - if you give it sufficient light/nutrition/CO2, it should be wider.
> 
> ...



well i reduced the light a bit because algae but i fixed it so i increased it few days ago, the light can provide enough light to burn plant, i'm going slowly, great the macandra will looks good =)

wallichii is pink but way less than internet pictures, the walichii looks small, i increased the light by 15%, limnophila hippuroide bottom leaves are turning red, the rotala was all green before i increased the light, now there are few leaves that turn pink/red, it might works, we'll see


----------



## eminor (29 Mar 2022)

here's the update,

if i have not enough PAR in there i don't know what i need to do, 2 * 24w t5ho on the top of a 12 inch height tank (15gallons), even without any reflector i'm at least at 100+ PAR, i have reflector,  according to  rotala butterfly calculator i'm 300+, don't know how reliable it is, PAR meter is not cheap 

hemianthus cuba is growing nicely i think

ludwigia sp red is really really red, way more than in pictures actually
i finally able to grow myriophyllum red stem
the tuberculatum is back in there, new leaves looks good, i'll put some extra diy iron clay near the roots
the limnophila hippuroides are in a really good shape, nice color etc
the walichii which was in bad shape because i reduced the light for few times, but on the picture you can see the new stem looks kind of good i think
the arcuata is way too long to grown it supposed to be a fast growing plant 

the warm color tone tank is the low tech tank without heater of filter, just the soil which i made myself, i mixed blond peat, french special clay, csm+b, some potassium and little magnesium, i'm supprised that it works so far...

you can see the rotala walichii is good ( keep in mind that the black kind of stunted leaves is old growth that went bad in the other tank)

the macandra have smaller leaves than high tech but i think she's okay in there
the myriophyllum red sem is so easy in low tech...
the tuberculatum grow nice roots, new leaves are okay


----------



## erwin123 (31 Mar 2022)

nice, I can see most of the plants growing well... 
the limnophila hippuroides leaves are purple on the bottom, green at the top, so the top-down photo doesn't show the beautiful purple leaves 

With 300 par,  the top parts of the P. Erectus should be turning a golden yellow  soon: 
How to grow Pogostemon erectus


----------



## eminor (31 Mar 2022)

erwin123 said:


> nice, I can see most of the plants growing well...
> the limnophila hippuroides leaves are purple on the bottom, green at the top, so the top-down photo doesn't show the beautiful purple leaves
> 
> With 300 par,  the top parts of the P. Erectus should be turning a golden yellow  soon:
> How to grow Pogostemon erectus


i didn't know about pogostemon, nice, so great, i can't be certain about the PAR, i dont have one, but there is lot of light with 2 t5ho

i trimmed the limnopila hippuroides, the bottom leaves are purple on the entire stem !!


----------



## erwin123 (11 Apr 2022)

Hi Eminor, you mentioned in another thread that your tank sprung a leak? Is it fixable with silicone or are you getting a new tank? Guess you can store your plants in a pail and continue running CO2 until your new tank arrives


----------



## Hanuman (11 Apr 2022)

erwin123 said:


> Hi Eminor, you mentioned in another thread that your tank sprung a leak? Is it fixable with silicone or are you getting a new tank? Guess you can store your plants in a pail and continue running CO2 until your new tank arrives


If I may, once a tank leaks, it's not a good idea to fix it by simply adding silicon on a specific spot unless the leak is pretty much at top where there is slightly less pressure. I think the best approach is to remove the leaking panel entirely, scrub all dried silicone and silicone it all over again, but that requires some practice if you want the job well done, else it's an ugly mess.


----------



## eminor (11 Apr 2022)

erwin123 said:


> Hi Eminor, you mentioned in another thread that your tank sprung a leak? Is it fixable with silicone or are you getting a new tank? Guess you can store your plants in a pail and continue running CO2 until your new tank arrives


Hi, i'm getting a new tank tomorrow, the leak is in the bottom, i won't bother fixing it, plant are in a small tank actually =)


Hanuman said:


> If I may, once a tank leaks, it's not a good idea to fix it by simply adding silicon on a specific spot unless the leak is pretty much at top where there is slightly less pressure. I think the best approach is to remove the leaking panel entirely, scrub all dried silicone and silicone it all over again, but that requires some practice if you want the job well done, else it's an ugly mess.


that tank leaked when i bought it, i fixed it by removing old silicon, acetone, then resealing except, i didn't change the bottom silicone because it was too hard to do it for me, i'll never buy second hand tank anymore, new or nothing =)


----------



## eminor (17 Oct 2022)

Hello, i had a strong smell today, i needed to go to the "plant house" what was my suprise when i saw my nemesis myriophyllum tuberculatum, was looking for here since a long time since i failed. of course the plant was not in the best conditions, floating in the water, but in good shape and good color. i paid 2.5 euros, not bad.

This time there is no way i fail, here's what i have :

1) Inline atomizer, more than 10 bps in 15 gallons, There is a lot of co2 in there, distribution is perfect.
2 ) 17 times turnover 
3) 26°c water
4) pool filter sand with osmocote below
5) I won't make the mistake to go EI with that plant, i failed everytime so i will use tropica specialized nutrition 3 a week
6) 8 dGH & 5.5 dKH water, i can manage to go 0 dKH if needed
7 ) 1* 24w t5HO 1500 lumens @ 10cm (30cm between the light and the plant) i have a second bulb if needed to increase PAR
8) Last resort thing, wave maker 528 GPH
9) there is no need for a 9

I already have walichii in the tank, one stem which grow nicely so far, i always had her stunted, not there which seems good


----------



## erwin123 (17 Oct 2022)

best of luck with the Tuberculatum! Don't forget to post regular photos!

I am growing M. 'Roraima' and its really easy to grow and has lots of sideshoots plus the colour is quite similar to Tuberculatum.
As a bonus, its stems are stronger than Wallichii which is too easily 'bent' by strong water flow....
If you can get some, do try Roraima and compare it to Tuberculatum!


----------



## eminor (17 Oct 2022)

erwin123 said:


> best of luck with the Tuberculatum! Don't forget to post regular photos!
> 
> I am growing M. 'Roraima' and its really easy to grow and has lots of sideshoots plus the colour is quite similar to Tuberculatum.
> As a bonus, its stems are stronger than Wallichii which is too easily 'bent' by strong water flow....
> If you can get some, do try Roraima and compare it to Tuberculatum!


i've read that tuberculatum is a real red plant which means she need more light to do the job, i've never seen roraima in my shop sadly, i have hope for tuberculatum, we'll see, i'll update once a week or twice a week


----------



## erwin123 (17 Oct 2022)

eminor said:


> i've read that tuberculatum is a real red plant which means she need more light to do the job, i've never seen roraima in my shop sadly, i have hope for tuberculatum, we'll see, i'll update once a week or twice a week


Yes, i would really like to see photos of the real colour of the tuberculatum. I think a lot of internet photos the red seems artificial/photoshopped.


----------



## eminor (17 Oct 2022)

erwin123 said:


> Yes, i would really like to see photos of the real colour of the tuberculatum. I think a lot of internet photos the red seems artificial/photoshopped.


They are, never seen true picture of it


----------



## Hanuman (18 Oct 2022)

eminor said:


> They are, never seen true picture of it


 - Not sure what you are referring to as red, but tuberculatum will turn to a bright brown-orange. When out of the water it will look more of a dark brown. There are several examples in this forum alone. Look at the @GreggZ 's  journal or mine. I am sure you can find others if you dig a bit.


----------



## Hanuman (18 Oct 2022)

eminor said:


> 1) Inline atomizer, more than 10 bps in 15 gallons, There is a lot of co2 in there, distribution is perfect.


No need to go overboard. A standard 1PH drop or something in 30ppm range should suffice.


eminor said:


> 2 ) 17 times turnover


Same here. Although the more turnover the better in general in a tank, 10 times is already in the high end. Also the more you add, the more the flow there is creating more water movement specially in such a small water volume. Remember this is a plant that is naturally found in stagnante waters. It can be grown with some moderate flow. No need to expose it to tidal waves.


eminor said:


> 4) pool filter sand with osmocote below
> 5) I won't make the mistake to go EI with that plant, i failed everytime so i will use tropica specialized nutrition 3 a week


So you are not using EI yet you are using osmocote, which technically is the same at the end in terms of food availability. Perhaps even more than if you where dosing EI in water column. This plant requires a good amount of fertilizer to grow well, specially iron and micros. Having inadequate amounts of iron will be translated by much smaller plant tops and stunting. Also this plant has a very poor root system comparatively to other plants, which is not surprising considering it doesn't rely on anchoring since it lives in stagnante waters. This alone would push me to feed the plant in the water column more heavily, but obviously having a rich substrate is not a bad thing either.


eminor said:


> 6) 8 dGH & 5.5 dKH water, i can manage to go 0 dKH if needed


Should be fine but I would suggest starting with a lower dKH. It's always better anyway.


eminor said:


> 7 ) 1* 24w t5HO 1500 lumens @ 10cm (30cm between the light and the plant) i have a second bulb if needed to increase PAR


This plant requires heavy lighting to grow well. Not sure how much PAR that bulb is providing though. Might be enough.


eminor said:


> 8) Last resort thing, wave maker 528 GPH


There is no need for this honestly. As I said above, remember this plant is found in stagnante waters.


----------



## erwin123 (18 Oct 2022)

Hanuman said:


> - Not sure what you are referring to as red, but tuberculatum will turn to a bright brown-orange. When out of the water it will look more of a dark brown. There are several examples in this forum alone. Look at the @GreggZ 's  journal or mine. I am sure you can find others if you dig a bit.



Brown-orange / coppery-brown is the sort of colour I am accustomed to seeing like in Greggz's journal - and those colours look quite similar to my M. Roraima as well.

But Eminor might be referring to photos on the internet where the tuberculatum looks very red. Even the flowgrow database has such a photo:









						Myriophyllum tuberculatum
					

Myriophyllum tuberculatum populates slow-flowing and stagnant waters in the Asian tropics. In Europe, this milfoil is readily available in trade, in the US, however, it is not very widely spread yet. Most shops and online shops there errone...




					www.flowgrow.de
				




I am wondering if the photo of the Tuberculatum in the flowgrow database is "enhanced" with photoshop?


----------



## Hanuman (18 Oct 2022)

The tops will turn reddish/pinkish under lower N concentrations but that color will then dissipate and as the plant matures it becomes darker brow or copper as you put it. Lighting will play the bigger role though and in that picture it could be that the plant was exposed to both lower N and higher lights. The picture doesn't look it's been manipulated but who knows.


----------



## eminor (18 Oct 2022)

Hanuman said:


> No need to go overboard. A standard 1PH drop or something in 30ppm range should suffice.
> 
> Same here. Although the more turnover the better in general in a tank, 10 times is already in the high end. Also the more you add, the more the flow there is creating more water movement specially in such a small water volume. Remember this is a plant that is naturally found in stagnante waters. It can be grown with some moderate flow. No need to expose it to tidal waves.



Weird thing here is that 17 times do not seems strong flow, i clean my canister filter every two weeks, with large biomass some plant seems stagnant 


Hanuman said:


> So you are not using EI yet you are using osmocote, which technically is the same at the end in terms of food availability. Perhaps even more than if you where dosing EI in water column. This plant requires a good amount of fertilizer to grow well, specially iron and micros. Having inadequate amounts of iron will be translated by much smaller plant tops and stunting. Also this plant has a very poor root system comparatively to other plants, which is not surprising considering it doesn't rely on anchoring since it lives in stagnante waters. This alone would push me to feed the plant in the water column more heavily, but obviously having a rich substrate is not a bad thing either.


Could be true, because walichii is having a nice trip in the tank so far,  i think some osmocote seems to find a way out the pool filter sand, maybe it does when i put a new plant in, some fertilizer go though the water column, that's why i do 30% water change twice a week.


Hanuman said:


> Should be fine but I would suggest starting with a lower dKH. It's always better anyway.


We are in autumn, i can manage that, but in the long terme, i'm gonna need to split with tap water


Hanuman said:


> This plant requires heavy lighting to grow well. Not sure how much PAR that bulb is providing though. Might be enough.


some times it's weird *on this video*, the guy tell that he use 40w fluorescent bulb on a 4ft tank, no co2 and the plant seems in really good shape


Hanuman said:


> There is no need for this honestly. As I said above, remember this plant is found in stagnante waters.


Yes, i'll manage without it


----------



## Hanuman (18 Oct 2022)

eminor said:


> some times it's weird *on this video*, the guy tell that he use 40w fluorescent bulb on a 4ft tank, no co2 and the plant seems in really good shape





So saying that the plant is good shape.... not so sure. The plant is also at the surface so basically accessing 400ppm of Co2 and very close to the light. 😬


----------



## eminor (18 Oct 2022)

Hanuman said:


> View attachment 195926
> So saying that the plant is good shape.... not so sure. The plant is also at the surface so basically accessing 400ppm of Co2 and very close to the light. 😬



not so sure about whitening on the picture, but still best looking that mine in the past, we'll see how it goes this time


----------



## eminor (19 Oct 2022)

little update, i added tuberculatum in my garbage tank with lots of light no co2, barely ferts, she keeps her colors, in my co2 inejcted tank, she become green, i think i injected way too much co2, ph before co2 injection was lower than 5...

my pearlweed lose her chlorophylle which is weird, i don't see other thing than too much co2 there, i used labo kit to test pH


----------



## erwin123 (19 Oct 2022)

eminor said:


> little update, i added tuberculatum in my garbage tank with lots of light no co2, barely ferts, *she keeps her colors, *in my co2 inejcted tank, she become green,



With no CO2, plants take longer to convert ... whether it will finally be green or red, it is too early to tell when there is no CO2 because growth/conversion takes more time. So 'keeps her colours' - probably too early to tell.

With CO2,  plants convert/adapt much faster.


----------



## eminor (19 Oct 2022)

erwin123 said:


> With no CO2, plants take longer to convert ... whether it will finally be green or red, it is too early to tell when there is no CO2 because growth/conversion takes more time. So 'keeps her colours' - probably too early to tell.
> 
> With CO2,  plants convert/adapt much faster.


so ph5 before co2 start is no problem ?


----------



## Hanuman (20 Oct 2022)

Why would you have PH 5 before CO2 starts? That doesn't look right. For that to happen it would mean you have a very poor gas exchange and your temperatures are in the low end.


----------



## Witcher (20 Oct 2022)

eminor said:


> so ph5 before co2 start is no problem ?


The Rio Negro which is one of the richest rivers in the world in terms of species/genus of fish (cardinal tetra among many others) is around 5ph  - and it's not a problem at all. Of course it's full of humic acid etc and that's why it's a Black River but personally I'd die for having this acidity of water at hand.


----------



## Hanuman (20 Oct 2022)

Witcher said:


> The Rio Negro which is one of the richest rivers in the world in terms of species/genus of fish (cardinal tetra among many others) is around 5ph - and it's not a problem at all. Of course it's full of humic acid etc and that's why it's a Black River but personally I'd die for having this acidity of water at hand.


We are not in the Rio Negro but in a tank with tap water with dKH at 5.5 therefore water being a PH 5 seems abnormal to me. But yes, overall speaking PH 5 isn't a problem. His PH in the morning before CO2 injection should have gone up to at least 6.5 or so considering the alkalinity.


----------



## eminor (20 Oct 2022)

Hanuman said:


> Why would you have PH 5 before CO2 starts? That doesn't look right. For that to happen it would mean you have a very poor gas exchange and your temperatures are in the low end.


Gas exchange is good, the surface agitation is plenty.  Temperature is 26°c, i use rain water. pH is 5, so if i want to target 1 pH drop, i'll need to go pH4 which seems too acidic ?

I doubt my pH kit is wrong, used in the labo of a dyeing factory which need perfect water parameters, i also read that low carbonate water is hard to measure pH


----------



## erwin123 (20 Oct 2022)

eminor said:


> Gas exchange is good, the surface agitation is plenty.  Temperature is 26°c, i use rain water. pH is 5, so if i want to target 1 pH drop, i'll need to go pH4 which seems too acidic ?
> 
> I doubt my pH kit is wrong, used in the labo of a dyeing factory which need perfect water parameters, i also read that low carbonate water is hard to measure pH


ph5-5.5 rainwater should include dissolved CO2
if you let the rainwater stand for 72 hours and measure its pH, what is the pH?


----------



## Hanuman (20 Oct 2022)

eminor said:


> Gas exchange is good, the surface agitation is plenty. Temperature is 26°c, i use rain water. pH is 5, so if i want to target 1 pH drop, i'll need to go pH4 which seems too acidic ?


The other reason you could be having such low PH is because you have a new substrate that is buffering PH hard. Is that the case?
Else I only see one reason and that would be that your rain water is highly acidic.


----------



## eminor (20 Oct 2022)

erwin123 said:


> ph5-5.5 rainwater should include dissolved CO2
> if you let the rainwater stand for 72 hours and measure its pH, what is the pH?


i'll do that soon


Hanuman said:


> The other reason you could be having such low PH is because you have a substrate a new substrate that is buffering PH hard. Is that the case?
> Else I only see one reason and that would be that your rain water is high acidic.


i use inert sand, might be acidic rain


----------



## eminor (20 Oct 2022)

i might be wrong, but it seems like i have a nitrogen deficiency ? no stunted plant but growth is really slow

i dose tropica 2ml every other day


----------



## erwin123 (20 Oct 2022)

eminor said:


> i might be wrong, but it seems like i have a nitrogen deficiency ? no stunted plant but growth is really slow
> 
> i dose tropica 2ml every other day


ummm... how can you have nitrogen deficiency if you put osmocote into the sand and dose tropica? unless you overdosed osmocote and got some sort of metal toxicity issue....


----------



## eminor (20 Oct 2022)

erwin123 said:


> ummm... how can you have nitrogen deficiency if you put osmocote into the sand and dose tropica? unless you overdosed osmocote and got some sort of metal toxicity issue....


could be metal toxicity yes, only 10 pellet in that tank, still too much, that thing is strong


----------



## dw1305 (20 Oct 2022)

Hi all, 


eminor said:


> but it seems like i have a nitrogen deficiency ?


That looks like iron (Fe) deficiency (pale, chlorotic new leaves), but that doesn't really fit with very soft water. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## eminor (21 Oct 2022)

Thanks, i think i fixed the problem, the osmocote i used have three kind of pellet, the first one is fast release, the pellet is white and have no resine i thought it was the slow release one, the second is standart yellow one. The last is trace which is iron like color. I used mostly white fast release osmocote in the tank which seems to kind of crash everything. I removed the pellet, added the slow release yellow one (6 in total) and did a 90% water change. Plants are pearling, even tuberculatum, we'll see how she goes in the new conditions, i think there was iron/zinc metal toxicity. Hope 6 is not too much 

KH should be near zero, i use 100% rain water, added magnesium/calcium to reach dGH 5, and 2ml tropica every other day

Funny thing is that the tuberculatum in my garbage tank is still growing without heater, so 4-6°c at night in the garage... she have pinkish roots


----------



## eminor (23 Oct 2022)

Day +2 after the fix

 Seems like there is some growth on the tuberculatum, at least the plant seems to keep the reddish color which is a good sign ? no stunt so far

the walichii have a great pink color, i can assume she have enough light, first time i see them not stunted...

Growth speed is normal, the rotala rotundifolia is growing fast, didiplis diandra same


----------



## eminor (31 Oct 2022)

i'll share picture of the tuberculatum from the main aquarium tomorrow, she look stunted, stem become green, even if the new leaves are in good color they are small, weird thing is that the rotala walichii is 1 inches apart from it and is pink on the entire stem...

here is the tuberculatum from the garbage tank without co2, same rain water, no water changes, picture don't do justice, she is stunning, she's reddish brown, even the stem and lower leaves, the differences in the garbage tank is that there is no heater which mean that in night temp can go down to 4-5°c and the second  is that i use fertilizer with ammonia/urea which is for outdoor plant that suffer from iron deficiency...


> *0.07%* total nitrogen (N) of which : *0.023%* ureic,* 0.023% *nitric, *0.024%* ammoniacal. *0.04% *phosphoric anhydride (P2O5) soluble in water, *0.06%* potassium oxyde (K2O) soluble in water, *0.01%* magnesium oxide (mgO) total.
> 
> Trace elements soluble in water:* 0.00012%* Boron (B), *0.000025%* Copper (Cu), *0.0002%* Iron (Fe)(DTPA_), *0.00012%* Manganese (Mn), *0.000012%* Molybdenum (Mo), *0.000025%* Zinc (Zn)(EDTA)_.



Funny thing is that tuberculatum seems to grow in medium light, of course it's early to make conclusion, few weeks in the tank is nothing. I don't even bother adding magnesium/calcium beside the mg present in the ferts


----------



## erwin123 (1 Nov 2022)

most plants will adapt and grow in medium light. I find that CO2 supplementation usually gives the plant a nicer form. For example, I get stronger, thicker, red-coloured stems compared to no CO2. I think the same applies to many plants like Toninas.  Here are some photos of my M. Roraima for comparison.  The thick stem is useful because it keeps the plant straight ... my Wallichii in comparison, seem to be blown about by too much water movement and end up getting bent.


----------



## eminor (1 Nov 2022)

erwin123 said:


> most plants will adapt and grow in medium light. I find that CO2 supplementation usually gives the plant a nicer form. For example, I get stronger, thicker, red-coloured stems compared to no CO2. I think the same applies to many plants like Toninas.  Here are some photos of my M. Roraima for comparison.  The thick stem is useful because it keeps the plant straight ... my Wallichii in comparison, seem to be blown about by too much water movement and end up getting bent.


Yes co2 help with coloration, shape,everything in the end, my walichii have good flow, first time i get her really pink, so far no stunt, i was afraid because new shoot coming from the bottom, usually means she's stunted, but no, she seems happy.

Tuberculatum is way harder at least in that tank, flow is okay, co2 not so sure, walichii is pearling, not tuberculatum. I received my solenoid, i can crank up the co2


----------



## eminor (2 Nov 2022)

Here is the tuberculatum in the principal aquarium, slow growth, co2 is plenty, look's like the leaves are poiting down, the color seems correct but the leaves are small ?  as you can see behind the rotala orange juice are doing great, tuberculatum is million time harder. I doubt this is a light issue otherwise she would not grow in the garbage tank, same genetic here


----------



## erwin123 (3 Nov 2022)

not sure why the Tuberculatum new growth at the top seems a bit stunted compared to the older growth at the bottom,  keep on trying and update us on your efforts! Or just trying M.Roraima, which seems alot easier to growth and I think its equally colourful.

regarding the Orange Juice - this are freshly planted emersed stems that haven't converted yet?  The new leaves should be orange, not green (otherwise its Rotala Green, not Orange)


----------



## eminor (3 Nov 2022)

erwin123 said:


> not sure why the Tuberculatum new growth at the top seems a bit stunted compared to the older growth at the bottom,  keep on trying and update us on your efforts! Or just trying M.Roraima, which seems alot easier to growth and I think its equally colourful.
> 
> regarding the Orange Juice - this are freshly planted emersed stems that haven't converted yet?  The new leaves should be orange, not green (otherwise its Rotala Green, not Orange)



planted orange juice (100% certain it's orange juice) a weeks ago, the leaves is green, i use 1 * t5ho @7 cm which is supposed to be high light, i doubt it, i once added hygger 18w + t5ho, the new leaves was orange. 1 t5ho can't be high light, doubt it.

As you can see i love difficult plant, it keep me busy lol, i want to have success with tuberculatum


----------



## erwin123 (3 Nov 2022)

eminor said:


> planted orange juice (100% certain it's orange juice) a weeks ago, the leaves is green, i use 1 * t5ho @7 cm which is supposed to be high light, i doubt it, i once added hygger 18w + t5ho, the new leaves was orange. 1 t5ho can't be high light, doubt it.
> 
> As you can see i love difficult plant, it keep me busy lol, i want to have success with tuberculatum



if you don't have enough light to turn Rotala OJ orange (it turned orange easily in my tank), is there sufficient light for the Tuberculatum, as flowgrow says it requires high light.


----------



## Wookii (3 Nov 2022)

The leaf shape is wrong for OJ too, those stems still look to be in emersed form.


----------



## eminor (3 Nov 2022)

Wookii said:


> The leaf shape is wrong for OJ too, those stems still look to be in emersed form.


Sure some are (there is some rotala indica/rotudifolia on the picture) but they should not be green under high light, 1 t5ho on top is supposed to be high light according to PAR diagrams etc, rotala butterfly light calculator say that i have 137 Par+ let say there is a margin of error,  i have 100+ it's still high light, plant are still green. conclusion in my case is that the t5ho bulb do not deliver high light. bulb is 12 inch from the soil


----------



## eminor (7 Nov 2022)

@Happi

urea magic, less than a week @0.4 ppm daily, the tuberculatum start new shoots, intense brown red, leaves upwards, walichii is really pink. Plant are pearling even in the dark...


----------



## Happi (7 Nov 2022)

eminor said:


> @Happi
> 
> urea magic, less than a week @0.4 ppm daily, the tuberculatum start new shoots, intense brown red, leaves upwards, walichii is really pink. Plant are pearling even in the dark...


that is the power of Urea, Intense color and straight fuller leaves are some prime example under Urea dosing.


----------



## eminor (7 Nov 2022)

Happi said:


> that is the power of Urea, Intense color and straight fuller leaves are some prime example under Urea dosing.


That why the same plant in my garbage tank thrive, the outdoor fertilizer i use (in the garbage tank) have some urea, under KNO3 it's way harder for me at least.


----------



## Happi (7 Nov 2022)

eminor said:


> That why the same plant in my garbage tank thrive, the outdoor fertilizer i use (in the garbage tank) have some urea, under KNO3 it's way harder for me at least.


have you tried the Urea+KNO3 Combo that we talked about? if your tank test low for NO3 levels, i would definitely try this combo.


----------



## eminor (7 Nov 2022)

Happi said:


> have you tried the Urea+KNO3 Combo that we talked about? if your tank test low for NO3 levels, i would definitely try this combo.


i actually do 2:1 urea/kno3  ratio, i wanted to do 100% urea but might be too much

i do 50/50 in another tank, so far so good


----------



## Happi (7 Nov 2022)

eminor said:


> i actually do 2:1 urea/kno3  ratio, i wanted to do 100% urea but might be too much
> 
> i do 50/50 in another tank, so far so good


there is nothing wrong with going 100% Urea, NO3 is almost always present in the aquarium around 5-10 ppm consistently. the 50/50 approach is good overall because it also provide K+


----------



## erwin123 (8 Nov 2022)

eminor said:


> Plant are pearling even in the dark...


whats the scientific explanation for this?


----------



## eminor (8 Nov 2022)

erwin123 said:


> whats the scientific explanation for this?


I don't even know, they seems to love urea so much


----------



## eminor (10 Nov 2022)

@Happi 

Never seen rotala grow that quick, the 2 taller stem grow insanely fast, you can see the urea use, leaves become larger and fuller, the picture don't show it well but the green is really more intense. I don't use high light, Par is 80. Tuberculatum is still doing nicely. Didiplis diandra which was kind of stunted start to kick in. I though she needed high light to get color, she's getting orange/red 1 inch above the sand.

The roots system of some plants was brown/black, new one are white, exept tuberculatum which send new root, root color is pink. I'll update later with more pictures of the hard ones


----------



## erwin123 (12 Nov 2022)

eminor said:


> @Happi
> 
> Never seen rotala grow that quick, the 2 taller stem grow insanely fast, you can see the urea use, leaves become larger and fuller, the picture don't show it well but the green is really more intense. I don't use high light, Par is 80. Tuberculatum is still doing nicely. Didiplis diandra which was kind of stunted start to kick in. I though she needed high light to get color, she's getting orange/red 1 inch above the sand.
> 
> ...


Back to the colour of your  Rotala OrangeJuice - I assume the stem on the left is the OJ? it doesn't look very orange? If it has been a few weeks already, they should have converted fully and you should be getting a nice orange colour....


----------



## eminor (12 Nov 2022)

erwin123 said:


> Back to the colour of your  Rotala OrangeJuice - I assume the stem on the left is the OJ? it doesn't look very orange? If it has been a few weeks already, they should have converted fully and you should be getting a nice orange colour...


Yes, it's the orange juice, Not yet fully converted, i know she need some time to get the color except if insane high light is used. some are fully converted, some are orange. 1 * t5ho =/= high light as i told despite what i read on different board. I saw lot of par diagram for t5ho, i used lot of new bulb, reflector is good, par is no more than 100 here. if i trust par diagram like one on tom barr website, i have more than 150 at that distance, par meter tell me that i have not


----------



## eminor (18 Nov 2022)

some news, i did a mistake with the cycle i think, i cleaned the filter and let the filter moss without water for few minutes, the tomorrow after that, i had diatoms bloom. since few days diatom seems to go back there is now some green algae which looks like the nitrogen cycle is going on. Not a single BBA but i had BGA few patche which do not evolve.
tuberculatum was covered with algae, they are recovering right now, rotala walichii seems to resist well to algae which impress me.

The rotala rotundifolia/indica/orange juice are growing really fast despite the medium light. there is new walichii stem from the bottom, the didiplis diandra start to grow nicely. The disaster could've been far worst


----------



## erwin123 (18 Nov 2022)

The tuberculatum doesn't seem to be in good shape - lower leaves look like they are decaying (aftermath of an algae attack?) and the colour is no longer reddish brown..... not sure what's going on if your other plants are all ok.

By the way, you have Ammannia Pedicatella Golden in a different tank? Maybe you should put one stem of Tuberculatum into that tank - I suspect they may like similar conditions so if you can grow the Golden well in your other tank, the Tuberculatum should be no problem as well.


----------



## eminor (18 Nov 2022)

erwin123 said:


> The tuberculatum doesn't seem to be in good shape - lower leaves look like they are decaying (aftermath of an algae attack?) and the colour is no longer reddish brown..... not sure what's going on if your other plants are all ok.
> 
> By the way, you have Ammannia Pedicatella Golden in a different tank? Maybe you should put one stem of Tuberculatum into that tank - I suspect they may like similar conditions so if you can grow the Golden well in your other tank, the Tuberculatum should be no problem as well.


There's still diatoms on the tuberculatum yes, few days ago i though the plant would be dead, she's not intense brown, but the color is coming back slowly. The new leave shape is good so far, the bottom is indeed in bad shape.  ammania golden is way easier than tuberculatum, ammania grow well in hard water (GH 17, KH 11). The last time i tried tuberculatum is hard water shee seemed to grow a bit then die off. the co2 was bad though

It was easier to manage water change with tap water, i doubt walichii/tuberculatum would like it. I think i saw a topic in which someone grow walichii in hard water which was not in perfect shape but fine using lot of co2/ferts


----------



## eminor (26 Nov 2022)

I added 25% tap water to add nickel for the urea since rain water do not have it, since i did that, the tuberculatum send lot of new shoot which seems in good health despite the algae bloom due a fail with the filter. walichii seems impossible to stunt with urea


----------



## eminor (11 Dec 2022)

Hey, some update, the algae bloom is almost gone, still few patch of cladophora here and there but smaller everyday. I also have a deficiency, i can't figure if it's co2, iron or nitrates deficiency, i put 10 ppm nitrates, 1 ppm phosphate, 0.08 iron total dose for the week (few everyday) any idea ? thx

the tuberculatum looks in correct shape ?

if you look the picture of the didiplis diandra, you'll see that the new leaves are pale green, and small, the rotala only seem to have new leave really white, not stunted at all...

To me it looks like an iron issue because old leave are in good shape but i could be wrong. i also read that tuberculatum is an iron level indicator, it seems that she have good color, walichii is also pink...


----------



## KirstyF (11 Dec 2022)

Well nitrate is a mobile nutrient so I would say iron is most likely if it’s a new growth issue, and would try an increase there first. 

I understand that an Mn deficiency can also show up as chlorosis but it’s a less likely candidate, so would give the Fe a try. 

I’ve found it to correct fairly quickly if that is the issue.


----------



## Happi (11 Dec 2022)

eminor said:


> I also have a deficiency, i can't figure if it's co2, iron or nitrates deficiency, i put 10 ppm nitrates, 1 ppm phosphate, 0.08 iron total dose for the week (few everyday) any idea ? thx


try adding some Iron Gluconate. what ppm of Mg and Mn are you currently adding?


----------



## plantnoobdude (11 Dec 2022)

What is your gh and kh? For softer water 0.08 Fe dtpa should be sufficient.


----------



## eminor (11 Dec 2022)

Happi said:


> try adding some Iron Gluconate. what ppm of Mg and Mn are you currently adding?


would like, but i dont have, i only have edta csm+b right now.

For the mn i use colombo flora grow, they tell 0.02%, which is nearly nothing, with csm+b i target 0.1 ppm Mn. For the magnesium, if i change 10 liters, i add 5 ppm Mg for the 10 liters changed not the global volume.




KirstyF said:


> Well nitrate is a mobile nutrient so I would say iron is most likely if it’s a new growth issue, and would try an increase there first.
> 
> I understand that an Mn deficiency can also show up as chlorosis but it’s a less likely candidate, so would give the Fe a try.
> 
> I’ve found it to correct fairly quickly if that is the issue.


Thanks, it's weird there is no sign of iron deficiency in the way that there is no strong green veins on the leaves


----------



## eminor (11 Dec 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> What is your gh and kh? For softer water 0.08 Fe dtpa should be sufficient.


GH is 5, KH is 2, i thought it would be enough too but plant seems to tell me otherwise. I now switched to EDTA because there is only few days in the dtpa bottle, so i target 0.25 ppm iron, i added less than 0.1ppm with DTPA when i used it


----------



## Happi (11 Dec 2022)

eminor said:


> with csm+b i target 0.1 ppm Mn


in your other post you wrote that you add 0.08 ppm Fe weekly, but if you were dosing csm+b to target 0.1 ppm Mn, this would also add 0.35 Fe. please clarify


----------



## eminor (11 Dec 2022)

Happi said:


> in your other post you wrote that you add 0.08 ppm Fe weekly, but if you were dosing csm+b to target 0.1 ppm Mn, this would also add 0.35 Fe. please clarify


Until today i added colombo flowgrow which is a micro nutrients fertilizer, pump is not the best but i'm sure that i added more than 0.06 ppm iron dtpa weekly so 0.008 ppm daily.

i now use EDTA micro powder, i actually never found the exact powder i have for micro

Composition : Fe 8,4% ; Mn 2% ; Zn 1.15% ; B 0.9% ; Cu 0.23% ; Mo 0.15%

i used rotala butterfly to reach 0.5 iron ppm weekly but i managed to have lots of room since i need 4 pump to reach the desired daily ppm which is 0.071 ppm, but since i don't exactly know the powder brand, i've seen that tnc trace is fairly close, 8.2% iron if i remember


----------



## Happi (11 Dec 2022)

eminor said:


> Composition : Fe 8,4% ; Mn 2% ; Zn 1.15% ; B 0.9% ; Cu 0.23% ; Mo 0.15%





eminor said:


> but since i don't exactly know the powder brand, i've seen that tnc trace is fairly close, 8.2% iron if i remember


how did you get those numbers listed in the Composition ? can you take a picture of the Product including the labels?


----------



## eminor (11 Dec 2022)

Happi said:


> how did you get those numbers listed in the Composition ? can you take a picture of the Product including the labels?


here, there was no label, just micro powder in a bag


----------



## eminor (20 Dec 2022)

Looks like it was a Mn deficiency, i tried to add only Fe, nothing changed, i was tired of deficiency and since i have only sand i wanted to go back to estimative index, it's been 6 days and plants start to show muscles, specially the tuberculatum which for the first time have nice shape and color !!

The pelia is getting too big, the new rotala stem are green/orange. the Walichii looks so pink because there's some white deficiency leaves i think. Weird that tuberculatum stem isn't stunted. I'll see if i can grow a bunch of tuberculatum now

For macro i use : KNO3, K2SO4 50%, KCL 50%, KH2PO4 // 0.1 ppm urea
Water change day : 4:1 CaCl2/MgSO4 (different bottle)
Micro : easylife Profito ~= FE 0.6 ppm / week

Funny that reineckii mini have better color since i dose EI, can't see on pictures but looks like she have a kind of gloss on the new leaves. Same thing when i dose tropica specialized nutrition on other tanks, specialy the cryptocoryne species, they have kind of gloss too, don't know why though.

Since tuberculatum grow, does that mean that i'm in the high light field ?


----------



## eminor (Tuesday at 4:46 PM)

I don't know if somebody cares, but i'll update lol

So i use 100% rain water, dKH should be near 0 and GH is lower than 4, iron deficiency seems gone with profito, some white leaves plant have new green one.  @GHNelson   (i think) told me that tetra initial sticks might be good with sand so i put them, 5 stick near difficult plants, it's been a week so, too soon. I have some rare plant, syngonanthus sp rio, which seems to be really hard, it's been almost a week and the leaves stay green and there is some new growth, will see in the long term. i also have rotala mancadra type 4 which turn red and grow fine. i trimmed tuberculatum there is lot of new stem, walichii is not growing much...
Blyxa japonica is now in too, she seems a slow plant, but there is new leaves, will see too

I had trouble growing the red stem myriophyllum in sand back then, it seems healthy now. I think i'll switch to RO water before the summer because summer rain water is bad...

The plant that have the most trouble is ammania golden, maybe the stem is not good anymore, but she won't grow in sand, i had no trouble in fluval stratum even with hard water. The reineckii have so much fun in that tank


----------

