# Problem with El Natural



## Christie_ZXR (11 Jun 2012)

Hi everyone,

I set up an el natural tank for my dad a good few months ago, it had been going well, but I popped over yesterday and it's not so good now. Got a little bit of hair algae, but that's not the end of the world. Problem is the plants aren't growing as well as I'd like them to. Initially, we went for the "chuck a load in and see what grows" approach to decide what to keep! A lot of them were cuttings from my tanks. Amazon swords, vallis, hygrophila and java fern seem to be the bulk of the planting that's coping nicely, but not thriving as I'd like.
I'm trying to figure out what to do to improve things. Didn't have any tests on me, so I don't have any water readings unfortunately. 
He has a lighting siesta, so there's 12 hours of light (I think) in total with a few hours break in the middle. There's no airstone, but there is a fair bit of surface movement from the filter. I get better results in my smaller tanks with no surface movement, so I'm wondering if that might be the issue? My other thought was the algae nicking the nutrients and there not being enough planting in there to compete. I'd say about half to 2/3 of the substrate is covered with plants. 
The idea was to keep this tank totally simple for him (hence why muggins here goes round occasionally to do the maintenance!!)  so ferts are out sadly. I know when we initially set the tank up, we used a mix of RO and tapwater to dilute all the rubbish in the tap water, but the plan was to use tap for water changes after that. So I'm wondering is if there aren't enough nutrients left in the water because of this? I left him some bottles of RO for top ups, but I think these have ended up being used for water changes. 

What do we reckon would be a good plan? I was thinking I'll get him some more plants, probably anubis and a few more amazon swords, do a big water change for him and fiddle with the filter outlet so there's a bit less surface movement. The hair algae itself I should be able to just pull out, there's not too much of it.

Cheers


----------



## Alastair (11 Jun 2012)

Hi, what substrate is being used, is it soil capped with something?? 
Is their enough fish in to aid in feeding the plants?? How often are they being fed?? 
Also it doesnt hurt to add the occasional pinch of plant food to help But If your using ro water then this is lacking in minerals etc too which help with plant growth. I rarely if ever do a water change on my tank, just mainly top up with treated tap water which also contains some nutrients. 
I've heard of the siesta period being used in el natural tanks but I just run my lighting for ten hours straight. 
Also your prob right regarding surface agitation. I have the filter outlet right under the water, it's causing slight rippling effect but not breaking the surface to cause any gas exchange and rid of the little co2 in their. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## awtong (11 Jun 2012)

Further on from Alastair's question about substrate are you using root tabs for the swords and vallis to help with root feeding?

I have a reasonable amount of surface agitation on my low tech tank and have no hair algae.  I use 2 x 54w T5's with reflectors over 450l for 6hrs.  What is the fish stocking like do you have reasonable amounts of fish waste that could be taken up as nutrients?

For water changes I just use treated tap water.

Andy


----------



## Christie_ZXR (12 Jun 2012)

Cheers guys.

It was tap water diluted with RO which I used to set the tank up initially for him. About 1/3 RO if I remember rightly. Stocking is about 20 or so guppies, 2 clown loach, 8 neons, 2 or 3 bristlenose and I'm not sure how many cherry shrimp.
We used John innes no2 underneath small gravel. Tank is 5' x 18" I believe, but it might be taller, possibly 2ft, will have to double check that one if it's important.
There aren't any root tabs, but I think I've got some in the cupboard so can pop them in if it would help. Are they needed with the soil substrate?


----------



## awtong (12 Jun 2012)

With the soil substrate root tabs aren't probably necessary as there should be available nutrition.  Maybe your lighting period is a bit long?  maybe cut that down a bit.  

Andy


----------



## Alastair (12 Jun 2012)

Just to add if it's John innes no2 you've added,,that contains far less nutrients than the no1 or 3 which is usually used 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Brenmuk (12 Jun 2012)

Hair algae is caused predominantly by a  a lack of CO2 see

http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm


To stay low tech there are number of things you can do to manage the CO2 levels in your tank:

Low tech: increasing CO2 supply
-more fish& inverts /bio load - produces more CO2
-more feeding - produces more CO2
-soil substrate - organic matter decomposes producing CO2
-allow/encourage emergent growth - this improves O2 levels which help break waste down producing more CO2.

All the above have limits/warnings etc don't overstock and don't overfeed for example. 

decreasing CO2 demand
- reduce light intensity & duration
- reduce plant biomass by pruning and thinning out overgrown plants - more plants need more CO2 - 
- replace demanding plants with slower growing plants - many carpet plants are more difficult to grow in low tech and will get covered in algae - while others like swords plants & vallis will often grow at the expense of other plants.
- add floating plants - adds shade so reduces light intensity.


In my low tech tanks I usually prune the plants when I see algae start to appear. That and some filter maintenance seems to stop algae from growing and re invigorate plant growth again.

BTW, the organic matter (source of CO2) in the John Innes compost recipe will come mostly from the peat. If you look at the recipes for the John Innes compost range you'll see that they all contain about 1/4 peat so the choice of No. 2 soil in terms of CO2 production (not other ferts though) does not matter.
See 
http://www.gardeningdata.co.uk/soil/john_innes/john_innes.php


----------



## Christie_ZXR (13 Jun 2012)

Ta very much guys! I'll have a fiddle with the tank next time I'm over there and let you all know how it goes.

What do we reckon to the stocking? More fish be a good idea? I was wondering about something larger like rainbowfish, congo tetra or possibly dwarf gourami? My dad had his eye on one of the baby oscars in the lfs since he wanted a "big colourful fish" in there with them!    Had to talk him out of that one! lol.


----------



## awtong (13 Jun 2012)

I am biased because I love Congo's.

Here are a few of mine as inspiration!





A group of mixed sex Congo's are so interesting to watch.  The males spar with each other and spawn with the females often.  They are egg scatterer's so the eggs get eaten in my tank.  My males with the best colours and fin extensions had a strong orange band just above the lateral line.  My male that does not have the strong orange line is nowhere near as impressive.  They shoal in the mid water and make a real feature.  At feeding time I have to be careful not to get wet when I feed floating food!!

Andy


----------



## Christie_ZXR (14 Jun 2012)

Do you reckon they'd leave the guppies alone? They are lovely!


----------



## awtong (14 Jun 2012)

That's a tricky one.  I have never kept them with anything with long flowing tails like that.  They don't bother any of my other fish but guppies maybe a different story.  They seem more interested in their own kind as it were.  I also keep a large shoal I started out with 14 females and 7 males as the males can be quite tough on them when breeding.  With such a large number most species aggression is toned down as there are sufficient numbers for them to interact with.

However the males have long flowing fin and tail extensions and I have never seen them nip each other!  I would think they would eat guppy fry but unsure if they would shred the adults!

Andy


----------



## dw1305 (14 Jun 2012)

Hi all,


> John innes no2 you've added,,that contains far less nutrients than the no1 or 3 which is usually used


 Shouldn't do, should have  more than 1, but less than 3, the original formula was 7:3:2 loameat:grit with these nutrients added (per cubic metre).
0.6kg ground limestone
1.2kg hoof and horn meal
1.2kg superphosphate
0.6kg potassium sulphate 

This is "JI no.1", JI no. 2/3 are the same formula, except the fertiliser addition is doubled for JI2 and tripled for JI3.

We had a JI discussion a while ago, <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=10537&p=112829&hilit=john+Innes+potato#p112829>, it is also quite relevant to this post.



> To stay low tech there are number of things you can do to manage the CO2 levels in your tank:
> Low tech: increasing CO2 supply
> -more fish& inverts /bio load - produces more CO2
> -more feeding - produces more CO2
> ...


Definitely have emergents and floaters, but I'm not a great believer in fluctuating CO2 causing any algae in low tech tanks, but I am a great believer in "_good things come to those who wait_" and I would suggest just removing the hair algae when it becomes a big enough tangle to be easily removable, and then carrying on the same.

None of my tanks have added CO2, or a nutritious substrate, and the fish mainly get live food together with a daily 10% water change. All my stocking is relatively low, and in many cases none existent over long time periods. What does differ in the tanks is the light, with some having high light from a combination of natural light and additional lighting, and some having much more restricted lighting. I have all of the tanks on a "12 hour" day, and I like a lot of water turn-over and biological filtration. I add fertiliser very occasionally using the "Duckweed index" method of assessing the growth and colour of the floating plants <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=21003> & <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=20782&start=10> & <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=14400>.

I like a large plant mass, plenty of floaters and emergents,  low tech. plants submersed. As well as fish I have _Asellus_, MTS, Red Ramshorns and Cherry shrimps where pH and inhabitants allow this. The other thing all the tanks have in common is a wide variety of algae. I usually have all the different algae groups, but they don't ever become a problem, and I don't ever recall suffering an algal "outbreak".  

cheers Darrel


----------



## Brenmuk (15 Jun 2012)

dw1305 said:
			
		

> > To stay low tech there are number of things you can do to manage the CO2 levels in your tank:
> > Low tech: increasing CO2 supply
> > -more fish& inverts /bio load - produces more CO2
> > -more feeding - produces more CO2
> ...



I wasn't aware that hair algae is related to unstable CO2 levels? James Planted tank guide says that it is related to low CO2 levels. 

I personally find hair algae unsightly to look at and prefer to avoid it. 

If the OP looks in the algae section of the forum they will find the advice given to control hair algae is to improve CO2 levels - the same principles of plant growth and algae control apply to high tech or low tech its just the rates of growth might differ.

see for example
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=18167
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=19394


----------



## dw1305 (15 Jun 2012)

Hi all,


> ......they will find the advice given to control hair algae is to improve CO2 levels - the same principles of plant growth and algae control apply to high tech or low tech its just the rates of growth might differ.


 First the disclaimer that I've never had a tank with added CO2, but I remain unconvinced. First thing is that the Green algae (Chlorophyta) have exactly the same photosynthetic systems as all the higher plants including mosses, ferns etc. if you like they are "C3 plants", and the original work on the Calvin-Benson cycle ("dark reactions") was carried out using the Green algae -  _Chlorella_. 

Second point is that under this argument low tech. tanks with low and fluctuating levels of CO2 would always favour hair algae growth over higher plants, and this manifestly isn't true. Many of us have tanks with relatively low nutrient levels, and no added CO2, where thread algae is rare to the point of invisibility.

I'm not a plant physiologist, but I don't really see how levels of CO2 can have dramatically different effects on plants and green algae, when they share the same photosynthetic pathways. 

This is some of the quoted thread, first "Hotweldfire's" question, followed by Clive's (ceg....) reply.  


> I've got no sign of CO2 related deficiencies on my plants, in fact they are pearling like mental about an hour after lights on, growing at a fantastic rate and there is good flow and distribution. This is even the case with the mini xmas moss and the hair algae is all over it. I have reduced photo period to 6 hours with no noticeable effect. Maybe I've misunderstood Clive. I took CO2 related algae to mean there isn't enough CO2 in the tank for the plants' requirements given the growth rate driven by the lighting. As a result there are plant deficiencies such that the algae feeds off the waste produced by the failing plant and is able to take advantage of nutrients in the water column that the plant can't (because the plant is failing). How does this hold when the plant isn't failing?





> Hair is definitely CO2 related. Plants pearling does not mean that they are at peak health. They can pearl and grow if they are able to produce enough food, but the presence of the algae indicates that something is still wrong healthwise. You should never use pearling as the sole indicator of plant health because it is a result of a combination of environmental as well as plant factors. Algae can pearl equally well.


I don't think the presence of algae indicates something is wrong healthwise, all natural systems have some algae. This is my garden pond, I've had it since 2008, and every spring it has had some blanket weed float up to the top before disappearing. This year it didn't, possibly because condition in March led to an earlier flush of plant growth.





The algae is still there, it just never became a visible mass this year. Same with my tanks, they all have all the different types of algae present, but it as soon as they become established (after ~ 6 months) with a large plant mass, a steady state is reached with little visible algae. 

This is the tank in the lab window receiving a lot of natural daylight, same applies as the all other tanks, no added CO2 and nutrient deficient:





and a more recent shot, you can see BBA on the filter sponge, although there is very little in the tank otherwise. I think it is present because the sponge isn't grazed by the Ramshorn snails, whereas the other surfaces are. You can also see the very thin green algal turf on the stone under the filter sponge in both photos.



 

cheers Darrel


----------



## brodnig (15 Jun 2012)

Interesting discussion, this. 

I've got some hair algae occurring in the upper levels of the stems in my low tech nano. Undecided as to whether to pull as much of it out as a I can this weekend when I do maintenance or do a fairly aggressive trim to stimulate new growth. 

I don't mind a wee bit of algae and this is the only issue affecting my tank which i'm otherwise very happy with (as are the fish and shrimp)!


----------



## Brenmuk (15 Jun 2012)

dw1305 said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> 
> 
> > ......they will find the advice given to control hair algae is to improve CO2 levels - the same principles of plant growth and algae control apply to high tech or low tech its just the rates of growth might differ.
> ...



Non limiting levels of nutrients and CO2 favours plant growth over algae growth and this is the basis of the Tom Barr EI method and also why Diana Walstads el natural method works whereby nutrient rich garden soil is placed under the substrate. 
The levels of nutrients and CO2 is generally lower in low tech set ups so it is easier for the system to become limiting for plants hence low tech methods work better under lower light levels and with plants that are not so demanding for CO2. Plants will also adapt physiologically to lower levels of CO2.

I understand what you are saying about algae and higher plants having essentially the same photo systems and I can't give you an explanation why algae growth does not increase alongside plant growth in nutrient rich systems but observations of aquariums and natural aquatic systems where nutrients & CO2 are abundant shows that these systems favour plant growth over algae growth. Diana Walstad discusses this in her book and Tom Barr has given examples and pictures in some threads see below:
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=8592

I also don't see the presence of algae as unhealthy, algae can take up harmful ammonia just as plants do and can oxygenate the water but what I do find unsightly is a tank where there are stem plants covered in hair algae for example (although my worst dislike is a BGA outbreak). This is not a matter of health but rather aesthetics.

Darrel don't get me wrong I personally like your tanks but not everyone sets out to have a jungle style tank-  could you grow an Iwagumi style tank with only carpeting plants using your low tech method without having to contend with algae?


----------



## dw1305 (15 Jun 2012)

Hi all,


> Non limiting levels of nutrients and CO2 favours plant growth over algae growth and this is the basis of the Tom Barr EI method and also why Diana Walstads el natural method works whereby nutrient rich garden soil is placed under the substrate.


 Since I've been a member of this forum I've learnt a lot that surprises me, and much that I wouldn't have believed before I saw the EI tank images, but I still struggle with this. I posted on the "*Algae nutrient scavengers*" thread, but I had forgotten how interesting it was. 


> could you grow an Iwagumi style tank with only carpeting plants using your low tech method without having to contend with algae?


 No idea, I think I might be able to, as long as I had a slow growing carpet plant (probably a moss), and used floating plants initially, which probably is cheating. 


> I personally like your tanks but not everyone sets out to have a jungle style tank


 Point taken, all of my tanks are jungles and set up long term, I don't worry about aesthetics, plant growth is definitely sub-optimal and I only use a very limited pallet of plants. If you used a cooking analogy I only cook one meal.

*Non Aquarium bit:*
I do exactly the same in the garden, find plants that will grow without too much looking after, and then just let them get on with it. I then try and reduce the nutrient level so that they grow relatively compactly, which doesn't work for some plants. Here are few photos from last week.

Back-garden (excuse the washing line).




Front Garden:




Rear wall:




cheers Darrel


----------



## OllieNZ (15 Jun 2012)

Brenmuk said:
			
		

> Darrel don't get me wrong I personally like your tanks but not everyone sets out to have a jungle style tank-  could you grow an Iwagumi style tank with only carpeting plants using your low tech method without having to contend with algae?



Diana did after a fashion



			
				Brenmuk said:
			
		

> Came across a pdf document with an article about low tech shrimp tanks and growing carpet plants using the DSM in an NPT. You might find interesting:
> 
> http://www.bookmasters.com/marktplc/00388Shrimp.pdf



It is a pity she isn't interested in scaping

Personally I don't think you can ever set up tank without algae being a factor


----------



## Christie_ZXR (16 Jun 2012)

Sorry guys, I don't think I've been all to clear. The algae isn't too much of an issue, the plants not growing as well as I'd like was the main problem. I'd set out to replicate (sort of) my biorb, which grows wonderfully, and thought I'd copied the aspects that have made it successful. Things aren't as green as I'd like, and just not as healthy looking generally. I do wonder if having the siesta with the lighting isn't helping perhaps, but that's next on the list of things to try if the other things aren't successful.

Discussion has been enormously helpful and informative though, thank you...even if I have had to read it through about three times!    (In my defense, it's been rather a long day today!!)


----------

