# Roots Dyed Dark - Low Tech Blackwater (updated 08-04-14)



## Lee Sweeting (30 Jan 2014)

Right! So... I've decided to ditch the co2 and start a low tech tank, mainly inspired by Alastair's Little Box of Chocolates, and Big Tom's Bucket O' Mud, who's journals have been exceptional in there concept and achievements, and a real source of inspiration whilst setting up this tank.

The principal idea behind this tank is to provide a stable and healthy home, capable of housing liquorice gourami. I've really developed a liking to these little fish, primarily through reading and subscribing to the Parosphromenus Project (THE FISH: All about the Licorice Gourami-Group). Unfortunately these little fish are struggling in the wild, due to the destruction of their natural habitat. So i thought i would try to set up a tank were they would be happy enough to breed. Although this is not a true biotope (this is now my main show tank), i have tried to taylor the water parameters to suite their needs.

Water parameters: gH - 5, kH - 1, pH 6.5 for now, i've added a lot of almond leaves and alder cones, so hopefully this will reduce the pH as the leaves and cones break down.

Tank Spec:

Tank: 89 x 30 x 44 (LxHxD), which equates to about 90 litres after displacement from Hardscape, substrate etc etc.

Substrate: Original pond aquasoil capped with Ebi gold.

Lighting: 2 x TMC mini 400 led's with controller. Set @ 30% and suspended 40cm above the tank. Photo period is 6 hours for the time being. I will increase this to 8 hours after about a month or so.

Filtration: JBL cristal profi e700 (700 ltr per hour).

Heating: Hydor inline heater set to 26 degrees C.

Hardscape: Redmoor root and yamaya stone.

Flora: Salvinia natans, Microsorum mini/petite, Microsorum trident, Aponogeton crispus 'Red', Anubias bonsai, Cryptocoryne parva, Cryptocoryne wendtii 'brown, Cryptocoryne wendtii 'green' Taxiphyllum barbieri, Hygrophila pinnatifida, Monosolenium tenerum, Vesicularia ferriei 'Weeping', Ranalisma Mini.

Fauna: Primarily liquorice gourami, not sure what else yet?

Thanks for looking, constructive criticism, ideas welcome. 

Sorry for the crappy pictures, there just off my phone.


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## Rob P (30 Jan 2014)

That looks great mate!  Bloody well done!

Did those Ranalisma plants clean up ok??


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## Lee Sweeting (30 Jan 2014)

Cheers Rob, much appreciated.


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## tim (30 Jan 2014)

Love it lee  something I've wanted to do for a while after much reading of the Paros project forum, subscribed mate.


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## Lee Sweeting (30 Jan 2014)

Rob P said:


> That looks great mate!  Bloody well done!
> 
> Did those Ranalisma plants clean up ok??


 

Yes mate, there looking good. they'll probs be very slow to grow now though.

Thanks for passing them over mate.


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## Rob P (30 Jan 2014)

Ah the very least I could do mate!  When they take off i'll have some back for my small tank  lol


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## Lee Sweeting (30 Jan 2014)

Rob P said:


> Ah the very least I could do mate!  When they take off i'll have some back for my small tank  lol


 

No probs at all mate.


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## darren636 (30 Jan 2014)

That looks fantastic. And very interesting. Tom and al  have a lot to answer for!


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## darren636 (30 Jan 2014)

Where can we buy this ranalisma rostrata?

Is there a secret handshake?


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## BigTom (30 Jan 2014)

Brilliant Lee. I'd strongly suggest limiting the stocking to just the gouramis, or perhaps gouramis and one of the smaller blackwater _Boraras_ species in order to give any fry as good a chance as possible. Which species are you going to go for?

Really looking forward to seeing how this develops.


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## Rob P (30 Jan 2014)

darren636 said:


> Where can we buy this ranalisma rostrata? Is there a secret handshake?


 
LOL, i bought if from Alistair when he took down Choc puddle but it's never really done brill in my hi tech (as others seem to have experienced). It was taken out of my hi tech recently with a number of mucky lower leaves but some clean new growth and odd runners just starting. Lee kindly gave me lots of fish and plants from his hi tech take down so I offered him the mucky Ranalisma. I'm sure it will prefer the conditions he can provide which are nearer to Al's


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## Lindy (30 Jan 2014)

That looks fantastic! How are you going to reduce the gh? My gh is low out the tap but if I left it then the shrimp would die, otherwise I'd love to try breeding these guys


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## Lee Sweeting (30 Jan 2014)

BigTom said:


> Brilliant Lee. I'd strongly suggest limiting the stocking to just the gouramis, or perhaps gouramis and one of the smaller blackwater Boraras species in order to give any fry as good a chance as possible. Which species are you going to go for?
> 
> Really looking forward to seeing how this develops.


 

Thanks for the suggestion Tom, i have been thinking along those lines, either Boraras maculatus or  brigittae. I think they would both compliment the tank well. I'm not sure what species of paro i will be able to find? My local LFS stocks paros but there just labeled as Parosphromenus Sp. To be honest i would be happy with any species really, although it would be nice if i could get hold of some P. deissneri. I have been thinking of putting a post up on the paro project forum to see if there is any breeders around my area? I'm a little reluctant to buy them from my LFS as they are just kept in tap water, which is fairly hard in my area. Its a shame really but they do always have them in stock.


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## Lee Sweeting (30 Jan 2014)

ldcgroomer said:


> That looks fantastic! How are you going to reduce the gh? My gh is low out the tap but if I left it then the shrimp would die, otherwise I'd love to try breeding these guys


 

Hi Lindy! I did worry about this to initially. I have since been speaking to Alastair who has had success breeding these little guys. His parameters are gH 5, kH 0-1, and a pH of 6.0. I am using RO and then remineralising with sachem equilibrium. So i can pretty much set these parameters as i like.

Thanks,

Lee.


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## BigTom (30 Jan 2014)

I would try and get them from someone with a known species or at least import location. So many of the species within a complex are effectively impossible to tell apart by eye and it's much more valuable from the point of view of maintaining a population within the hobby if we know what they are.

You could try asking on PP, the British Cichlid Association forum, Seriously Fish or perhaps Colin Dunlop's facebook page (Facebook).


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## Lee Sweeting (30 Jan 2014)

BigTom said:


> I would try and get them from someone with a known species or at least import location. So many of the species within a complex are effectively impossible to tell apart by eye and it's much more valuable from the point of view of maintaining a population within the hobby if we know what they are.
> 
> You could try asking on PP, the British Cichlid Association forum, Seriously Fish or perhaps Colin Dunlop's facebook page (Facebook).


 

Thanks Tom, i'll give those sources a try and see if anything comes up. I would much rather source some from a reputable breeder. As you say it would be nice to know what species i am maintaining. 

I'll let you know how i get on.


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## Lindy (30 Jan 2014)

Lee Sweeting said:


> Hi Lindy! I did worry about this to initially. I have since been speaking to Alastair who has had success breeding these little guys. His parameters are gH 5, kH 0-1, and a pH of 6.0. I am using RO and then remineralising with sachem equilibrium. So i can pretty much set these parameters as i like.


Cool! I'm hoping to set up my new tank by the end of the month for chocolate gouramis so maybe will eventually get some liquorice too.


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## Edvet (30 Jan 2014)

Looks nice! Very nice even.
 I'd say get some experience with something available, then switch to something that needs our help.
That's what i plan to do
I have Betta macrostoma for now, see how that works out.
Time for you to get your own Catappa:Terminalia | UK Aquatic Plant Society


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## BigTom (30 Jan 2014)

Edvet said:


> I have Betta macrostoma for now


 

Now I'm jealous. I have probably some of the best F1 stock in the world available locally but no space for a tank for them


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## Edvet (30 Jan 2014)

Tough little buggers to take a pic from............


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## MARKCOUSINS (30 Jan 2014)

Great idea and very nice tank set up!Will be interesting to follow and i wish you all the best with your project  Cheers Mark


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## Lee Sweeting (30 Jan 2014)

ldcgroomer said:


> Cool! I'm hoping to set up my new tank by the end of the month for chocolate gouramis so maybe will eventually get some liquorice too.


 

Good luck Lindy, i hope all goes well. Are you going to start a journal?


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## Lindy (30 Jan 2014)

Lee Sweeting said:


> Are you going to start a journal?


Yup. Will be ordering tank next week and building a cabinet for it so lots of fun!


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## Lee Sweeting (30 Jan 2014)

Edvet said:


> Looks nice! Very nice even.
> I'd say get some experience with something available, then switch to something that needs our help.
> That's what i plan to do
> I have Betta macrostoma for now, see how that works out.
> Time for you to get your own Catappa:Terminalia | UK Aquatic Plant Society


 
Thanks! I'm loving the Catappa.


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## aliclarke86 (31 Jan 2014)

This is looking absolutely great fella. I'm very keen on a black water tank myself but the Mrs won't let me get the 180 out from the garage 

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## martinmjr62 (31 Jan 2014)

Lee, looking really nice,moss arrived safely,many thanks once again

Cheers
Martin


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## Lee Sweeting (1 Feb 2014)

aliclarke86 said:


> This is looking absolutely great fella. I'm very keen on a black water tank myself but the Mrs won't let me get the 180 out from the garage
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9505G using Tapatalk


 

Thanks Ali! Bloody women  , if it wasn't for my wife i would probably have a house full of tanks. Haha!!


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## Lee Sweeting (1 Feb 2014)

martinmjr62 said:


> Lee, looking really nice,moss arrived safely,many thanks once again
> 
> Cheers
> Martin


 

Thanks Martin, glad you are happy with the moss. I'm sure you will put it to good use.


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## Lee Sweeting (1 Feb 2014)

So.. I had a bit of a disaster today. I thought it would be a good idea to try and see if the redmoor had taken on enough water on to stay submerged (i've had it weighed down with some boulders), well it hadn't and i ended up with some floaters . Needless to say i spent most of this morning trying to sort it out. Its all good now though and looking like originally did. I'll never do that again, i guess you live and learn. Haha!


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## Edvet (1 Feb 2014)

Patience is a virtue
posses it if you can
never found in a woman,
but always in a man............

My dad learned me this.


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## Lee Sweeting (1 Feb 2014)

Edvet said:


> Patience is a virtue
> posses it if you can
> never found in a woman,
> but always in a man............
> ...


 


Edvet said:


> Patience is a virtue
> posses it if you can
> never found in a woman,
> but always in a man............
> ...


 

Haha! Your Dad was obviously a very wise man.


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## darren636 (1 Feb 2014)

Lee Sweeting said:


> Haha! Your Dad was obviously a very wise man.


 
Or a bigoted misogynist


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## Lindy (1 Feb 2014)

I'm with darren. Most of the people on this forum are blokes.  Most of the time they are complaining that plants aren't growing fast enough. Who are the impatient ones? Women have patience, we just have to waste alot of it on men...

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## Lee Sweeting (1 Feb 2014)

ldcgroomer said:


> I'm with darren. Most of the people on this forum are blokes.  Most of the time they are complaining that plants aren't growing fast enough. Who are the impatient ones? Women have patience, we just have to waste alot of it on men...
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk



Apologies if this has offended you Lindy, that certainly wasn't my intention. 


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## darren636 (1 Feb 2014)

Women? Here?   is nothing sacred?


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## Lindy (2 Feb 2014)

Don't be silly Lee, I also have a sense of humour.....

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## Lindy (2 Feb 2014)

Darren we are EVERYWHERE. Mwaha ha ha ha...

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## darren636 (2 Feb 2014)

ldcgroomer said:


> Darren we are EVERYWHERE. Mwaha ha ha ha...
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


 Must have WiFi in the kitchen


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## Lindy (2 Feb 2014)

darren636 said:


> Must have WiFi in the kitchen


 
Cheeky git...


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## Lee Sweeting (2 Feb 2014)

Haha! 


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## Lee Sweeting (7 Feb 2014)

I've got some paro's on order, should have them by the end of next week. Exciting stuff.

Water parameters are also stable @

pH 6.0 - 6.4
gH 3.0
kH 0 - 0.8
Conductivity 90 micro siemens / cm

My live food cultures (vinegar eels and banana/micro worms) are all up and running, which is great!

I think i'm prepared


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## darren636 (7 Feb 2014)

How are you maintaining your water kh etc?

Looking forward to some photos


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## Lee Sweeting (7 Feb 2014)

darren636 said:


> How are you maintaining your water kh etc?
> 
> Looking forward to some photos


 

Hi Darren! not a lot has changed in terms of how the tank looks. The crypts are all melting away, slowly. All the other plants seem to be adjusting just fine. I'll get some pictures of the paros up once i have them in the tank. 

I'm filtering through peat, and have added lots of alder cones and catappa leaves. This in conjunction with an active substrate and ro water is keeping the ph low. I'm also using seachem equilibrium to remineralise the ro, so i can pretty much set the gH/kH as i please. I'm changing about 10% of the water a week, which seems to keep the parameters pretty stable. 

I should get some more pictures up by the end of next week.


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## MARKCOUSINS (7 Feb 2014)

Nice one Lee can't wait for the pictures Very intresting set up you have going!Cheers Mark


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## faizal (8 Feb 2014)

Awesome Lee  . Looking forward to more pictures please. ...what is the purpose of catappa leaves & the alder cones? Are they meant to help with the breeding of gouramis?


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## Lee Sweeting (8 Feb 2014)

faizal said:


> Awesome Lee  . Looking forward to more pictures please. ...what is the purpose of catappa leaves & the alder cones? Are they meant to help with the breeding of gouramis?


 

Hi Faizal! Thanks for the comment. The catappa leaves & the alder cones leech tannins/humic acids into the water. These help lower the pH, and also have antiseptic properties, which help protect the fish from disease. Water quality/ properties are very important when attempting to breed Paro's, thats why the gh/kH and pH are low. The paro's come from black water habitats in South East Asia, and are very sensitive, requiring exacting water parameters.


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## faizal (8 Feb 2014)

We call them ikan (pronounced ee-Kaan) paro here.   . "Ikan" is the local name for fish.


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## Lee Sweeting (8 Feb 2014)

faizal said:


> We call them ikan (pronounced ee-Kaan) paro here.  . "Ikan" is the local name for fish.


 

Ah, brilliant! Where about's are you from Faizal?


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## faizal (9 Feb 2014)

Lee Sweeting said:


> Ah, brilliant! Where about's are you from Faizal?


I am from a small town in Malaysia called Alor Setar. It's in south east asia bordering on thailand.


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## Lee Sweeting (9 Feb 2014)

faizal said:


> I am from a small town in Malaysia called Alor Setar. It's in south east asia bordering on thailand.


 

I've passed through Malaysia a few times, but never had chance to take a good look around, its defiantly on my list of places to visit. I love that part of the world, i've done a bit of travelling around Thailand, which is one of my favourite places, very beautiful .

So do you have any Parosphromenus habitat local to you?


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## Alastair (9 Feb 2014)

Great set up mate. The paros will love it in their. Ill be doing a really black water specific set up in my living room shortly with some more paros ive got coming.  

Looking forward to following its progress. Ill get those bits out to you next week. Id stick to purely just the paros nothing else.


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## BigTom (9 Feb 2014)

That's three of us then Al (I've just turned one of my nanos back over to trying some Paro breeding again).


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## Lee Sweeting (9 Feb 2014)

Alastair said:


> Great set up mate. The paros will love it in their. Ill be doing a really black water specific set up in my living room shortly with some more paros ive got coming.
> 
> Looking forward to following its progress. Ill get those bits out to you next week. Id stick to purely just the paros nothing else.


 

Thanks Alastair! I like the sound of the backwater specific set up. What size tank are you thinking about? I might eventually set up another small backwater tank. I was offered some P. Nagyi recently but the guy only had a trio, so not enough for the big tank. It would be nice to have some other species on the go.


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## faizal (10 Feb 2014)

Lee Sweeting said:


> So do you have any Parosphromenus habitat local to you?


 
I am not really sure,.Most fishes here come from local fish farms. But yeah ,....there are a lot of other fishes that you can see at the paddy field areas but i am not familiar with their species.Sorry Lee,...

Just out of curiosity though,...what's the tap water gh/kh and pH in your area like?


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## Alastair (10 Feb 2014)

Lee Sweeting said:


> Thanks Alastair! I like the sound of the backwater specific set up. What size tank are you thinking about? I might eventually set up another small backwater tank. I was offered some P. Nagyi recently but the guy only had a trio, so not enough for the big tank. It would be nice to have some other species on the go.



Something around 80 to 90cm but shallow with roots hanging down in the water and really dark water. 
That's good that you know someone who has paros to sell. Id love to get some others from a breeder


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## roadmaster (10 Feb 2014)

ldcgroomer said:


> I'm with darren. Most of the people on this forum are blokes. Most of the time they are complaining that plants aren't growing fast enough. Who are the impatient ones? Women have patience, we just have to waste alot of it on men...
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


 
Women surely have more patience than most men, or their mother's would have placed a pillow over their faces while they were still in their crib's.
Another example would be the infamous.."are we there yet?,are we there yet?,are we there yet ?
Only a woman/mother, could/would tolerate this over a cross country auto trip to grandma's house.
Course everybody know's Grandma's are saint's.


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## Lee Sweeting (10 Feb 2014)

Alastair said:


> Something around 80 to 90cm but shallow with roots hanging down in the water and really dark water.
> That's good that you know someone who has paros to sell. Id love to get some others from a breeder


 

Sounds great mate. I really love the hanging root idea. I may be able to help you with the paro's. I'll pm you mate.


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## Lee Sweeting (10 Feb 2014)

faizal said:


> I am not really sure,.Most fishes here come from local fish farms. But yeah ,....there are a lot of other fishes that you can see at the paddy field areas but i am not familiar with their species.Sorry Lee,...
> 
> Just out of curiosity though,...what's the tap water gh/kh and pH in your area like?


 


No worries faizal!

I have very hard water straight out of the tap. I haven't tested myself, but my water quality report says 14.0 kH, i'm not sure what the gH is? pH straight out of the tap is 7.6. I use RO water though, thats 0 gH, 0 kH and pH 7.0.


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## Lee Sweeting (12 Feb 2014)

Bad news today!! My LFS ordered 30 paro from a breeder in Indonesia, when they arrived at the shop today they were all dead. Very sad news


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## BigTom (12 Feb 2014)

Not good. They must have been in pretty bad shape or bagged too densely as they normally ship pretty well by all accounts (breathe air and cope well with temperature drops).


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## Lee Sweeting (12 Feb 2014)

BigTom said:


> Not good. They must have been in pretty bad shape or bagged too densely as they normally ship pretty well by all accounts (breathe air and cope well with temperature drops).


 

Yea its a bloody shame mate. It doesn't really say a lot for the exporters either. I guess this kind of stuff happens all the time in the aquarium trade though!?


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## BigTom (12 Feb 2014)

Yeah, by the million I expect.


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## Lee Sweeting (12 Feb 2014)

BigTom said:


> Yeah, by the million I expect.


 

It must be, quite shocking really.


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## MARKCOUSINS (12 Feb 2014)

Bad news Lee.Real shame to read about something like this.Like you and BigTom said above wonder what kind of DOA figures occur in the aquarium trade


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## Lindy (13 Feb 2014)

This is why I use breather bags and ignore folk who say 'but trade don't use them'  trade must kill millions of fish. 

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## darren636 (13 Feb 2014)

ldcgroomer said:


> This is why I use breather bags and ignore folk who say 'but trade don't use them' trade must kill millions of fish.
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


 indeed. We probably loose the majority of fish taken from the wild.   I wonder what the figure is- 90% death rate?


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## Lee Sweeting (13 Feb 2014)

darren636 said:


> indeed. We probably loose the majority of fish taken from the wild. I wonder what the figure is- 90% death rate?


 

Its really knocked my confidence in buying from my LFS. Obviously they didn't just have the paro's on order, which makes me wonder how many other fish they lost?


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## Lee Sweeting (19 Feb 2014)

Right! Ive added some Boraras Maculatus while i'm waiting to get some paro. These little guys are such great fish, full of character and nice to watch. When i got them from my LFS a couple of days ago they were almost white, after being in the tank for a couple of days the males are bright red and seem to be forming temporary territories. I've also seen some courtship displays. No spawning yet though. I guess we will have to wait and see.  They seem very happy which is comforting, as these little guys come from the same habitats as parosphromenus.


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## darren636 (19 Feb 2014)

That's great lee

My brigittae males do the wiggle dance, but I've yet to see any spawning.


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## Lee Sweeting (19 Feb 2014)

darren636 said:


> That's great lee
> 
> My brigittae males do the wiggle dance, but I've yet to see any spawning.


 

Haha! Yes mate theres lot of wriggle dancing going on at the minute. There getting lots of live foods (banana worm and micro worm), so hopefully i will see some spawning soon. I'll try to get a video up as soon as i can.


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## darren636 (19 Feb 2014)

I bet they are loving your water.


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## ourmanflint (19 Feb 2014)

A man after my own heart! Glad I found this as also looking to start a Licorice gourami tank. Just bought the tank a few days ago so will hopefully be set by April. 
Love the tank, wish I could go as big, seems perfect size


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## Lee Sweeting (19 Feb 2014)

ourmanflint said:


> A man after my own heart! Glad I found this as also looking to start a Licorice gourami tank. Just bought the tank a few days ago so will hopefully be set by April.
> Love the tank, wish I could go as big, seems perfect size


 

Thanks a lot, and welcome to UKAPS. You should start a journal, it would be interesting to see how you go about setting your tank up. Which species are you thinking about keeping?


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## Edvet (20 Feb 2014)

3 weeks and countng with no pics!
Unacceptable, Lee.


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## Alastair (20 Feb 2014)

Edvet said:


> 3 weeks and countng with no pics!
> Unacceptable, Lee.


Disgusting hey ha


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## Lee Sweeting (20 Feb 2014)

Hahaha! I'm gonna remove the rocks that have been holding the hardscape down this weekend. I also have some cyperus helferi on the way.. So i'll get some updated pics added then.  Not a lot has happened to be honest, the crypts have all melted away and some new growth is now coming through. The hygrophila pinnatifida
isn't looking to great though. I'm not sure if it is still adjusting to being submerged. I guess time will tell.


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## tim (20 Feb 2014)

Interested to see how your cypress helfri does mate, just added some to my low tech not had much luck with it before low or high tech, looking forward to pics lee.


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## Rob P (20 Feb 2014)

Lee Sweeting said:


> Ive added some Boraras Maculatus while i'm waiting to get some paro


 
Hmmm, i have 4 of these that i don't think I should have (bought them a year ago when i was a bit clueless to their requirements). They seem happy enough though, if you find yourself wanting another 4 let me know...


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## Lee Sweeting (20 Feb 2014)

Rob P said:


> Hmmm, i have 4 of these that i don't think I should have (bought them a year ago when i was a bit clueless to their requirements). They seem happy enough though, if you find yourself wanting another 4 let me know...


 

I'm sure they will be fine in your tank mate but if you don't want them i would be happy to take them.


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## Lee Sweeting (20 Feb 2014)

tim said:


> Interested to see how your cypress helfri does mate, just added some to my low tech not had much luck with it before low or high tech, looking forward to pics lee.


 

Thanks Tim. yeah i'm hoping it's gonna do ok. I know some people have had some success with it low tech. I'll let you know how i get on.


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## BigTom (20 Feb 2014)

_C. helferi_ has done OK for me low tech, although in somewhat harder water.


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## aliclarke86 (20 Feb 2014)

Mine is looking a little worse for ware in my lowteck but I may have jumped the gun as its only 2 weeks in. Anyway added co2 now 

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## ourmanflint (20 Feb 2014)

Hi Lee

I've been asking around and it seems a lot of shops are struggling to get them in the country at the moment. Would love to get something like P. harveyi or nagyi.


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## BigTom (20 Feb 2014)

ourmanflint said:


> Hi Lee
> 
> I've been asking around and it seems a lot of shops are struggling to get them in the country at the moment. Would love to get something like P. harveyi or nagyi.


 
Flint if you're struggling to find any locally a few of us are hopefully getting a small shipment in sometime in March. Several species available, although minimum order for most of them is 10. If you think you might be interested just shout and I'll add you to the conversation.


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## darren636 (20 Feb 2014)

BigTom said:


> Flint if you're struggling to find any locally a few of us are hopefully getting a small shipment in sometime in March. Several species available, although minimum order for most of them is 10. If you think you might be interested just shout and I'll add you to the conversation.


some lovely pictures of yours on seriously fish , tom

Just reading about P. Alfredi , its pretty depressing something so beautiful is about to be wiped out.


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## Lee Sweeting (21 Feb 2014)

ourmanflint said:


> Hi Lee
> 
> I've been asking around and it seems a lot of shops are struggling to get them in the country at the moment. Would love to get something like P. harveyi or nagyi.


 

Yeah i know mate, i've found it almost impossible to find any, and believe me i have rang every aquatics shop in an 80 mile radius of York, haha! Big Tom is the man you need to talk to if you want some mate.


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## Lee Sweeting (21 Feb 2014)

aliclarke86 said:


> Mine is looking a little worse for ware in my lowteck but I may have jumped the gun as its only 2 weeks in. Anyway added co2 now
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9505G using Tapatalk


 

As Tom said he's had some success low tech and i know Alastair had some growing quite well in the chocolate puddle i think. Hopefully it will do ok in my tank.


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## Lee Sweeting (22 Feb 2014)

The paro's have landed . I've managed to pick some p filamentosus up today which i was very happy about. They had a very long acclimatisation period and are now in the tank. They seem to be settling rather well, and i'm fairly surprised to see them out in the front of the tank. They have been actively hunting the little ostracod's living in my substrate , and they have also taken some banana worm. 

I'll update the journal a little later on and try to get some shots of the tank and the paro's.

Tom / Ed i know you guys are good photographers any tips for getting good tank/fish shots? I have a Canon 450d but i really am a novice, i have been trying to get some decent shots in manual mode, but haven't come up with anything worth showing.

Any advice would be great


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## OllieNZ (22 Feb 2014)

Im no expert but here goes... Room  needs to be dark and any aditional lighting needs to be from above, a remote flash is handy if you have one. A tripod is a must and try keep the camera pointed so the lens is parallel to the glass. Shoot at the highest ISO you can and still get low noise. This will give you faster shutter speeds. For fish use the lowest f stop you can and still get the subject in focus, this will also increase the shutter speed you can use.
What lenses are you using/have available?


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## Lee Sweeting (22 Feb 2014)

OllieNZ said:


> Im no expert but here goes... Room  needs to be dark and any aditional lighting needs to be from above, a remote flash is handy if you have one. A tripod is a must and try keep the camera pointed so the lens is parallel to the glass. Shoot at the highest ISO you can and still get low noise. This will give you faster shutter speeds. For fish use the lowest f stop you can and still get the subject in focus, this will also increase the shutter speed you can use.
> What lenses are you using/have available?



Thanks Ollie, that all makes sense (kind of). I'm using the standard 18-55mm canon lens, this is the only one i have at the minute. Unfortunately i don't have a tripod, this is something i am willing to invest in though. I might be able to fashion something to get me by for now, I think i have something i can use to provide a steady base, and get a good level. 

What are the best lenses for getting good tank/fish shots? 

I'll wait till it gets a big darker tonight and try to get some more shots, using the methods you mentioned above. Hopefully i will get lucky and come up with something half decent.


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## OllieNZ (22 Feb 2014)

I only have the same lens. I use f7 for tank shots and as low as it will go for critter shots. A dedicated macro would be best for critters but are expensive. The standard cannon 50mm prime lens is well recommended and cheap I will be picking one of these up for my next lens I also managed some good shots with my friends 75-300 cannon lens ( albeit from the other end of the living room)


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## darren636 (22 Feb 2014)

Filamentosus is a beauty


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## Lee Sweeting (22 Feb 2014)

OllieNZ said:


> I only have the same lens. I use f7 for tank shots and as low as it will go for critter shots. A dedicated macro would be best for critters but are expensive. The standard cannon 50mm prime lens is well recommended and cheap I will be picking one of these up for my next lens I also managed some good shots with my friends 75-300 cannon lens ( albeit from the other end of the living room)



Great! Thanks Ollie. I'll give it a go and let you know how i get on


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## Lee Sweeting (22 Feb 2014)

darren636 said:


> Filamentosus is a beauty



Yea there beautiful Darren, mine are still a little pale at the moment. hopefully they will colour up soon.


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## BigTom (22 Feb 2014)

Ollie gave good advice about removing any reflections and shooting perpendicular to the glass - this will net you much sharper shots. The challenge then is finding enough light to provide you with a sufficiently fast shutter speed. Easy if you have an off-camera flash that you can set up above the tank, otherwise quite difficult. Adding additional lighting for photoshoots can help, otherwise you'll just have to use the widest possible aperture and keep pushing the ISO up until you get a fast enough shutter speed. Luckily Paros are quite slow moving so if you snap them when they're 'hovering' and your hand holding technique is quite good then something like 1/40s might be sufficient.

You'll probably find they're quite active and shoal a little when young and newly added to the tank. They get grumpier and more secretive as they mature!


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## Alastair (22 Feb 2014)

Lee Sweeting said:


> As Tom said he's had some success low tech and i know Alastair had some growing quite well in the chocolate puddle i think. Hopefully it will do ok in my tank.



Yeah it did great for me in my shallow.  Really soft water too 


Untitled by Mr-T-, on Flickr


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## Lee Sweeting (22 Feb 2014)

BigTom said:


> Ollie gave good advice about removing any reflections and shooting perpendicular to the glass - this will net you much sharper shots. The challenge then is finding enough light to provide you with a sufficiently fast shutter speed. Easy if you have an off-camera flash that you can set up above the tank, otherwise quite difficult. Adding additional lighting for photoshoots can help, otherwise you'll just have to use the widest possible aperture and keep pushing the ISO up until you get a fast enough shutter speed. Luckily Paros are quite slow moving so if you snap them when they're 'hovering' and your hand holding technique is quite good then something like 1/40s might be sufficient.
> 
> You'll probably find they're quite active and shoal a little when young and newly added to the tank. They get grumpier and more secretive as they mature!



Thanks Tom. Yeah they are quite active at the moment, and seem to be exploring the tank in twos and threes. There a loverly little fish, very nice to watch


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## Lee Sweeting (22 Feb 2014)

Right update time..

Not a lot has changed really over the last month. The crypts have all melted away and i'm just starting to see some new growth. My hygrophila pinnatifida doesn't seem to be doing so great, It hasn't melted away but has dropped almost all of the leaves.. So I'm hoping its just adjusting to being submerged? The remaining plants seem to have adjusted well and are growing, albeit very slowly. I was also able to remove the rocks weighing down the redmoor , which is nice. I can finally see the scape properly now. . Theres also been some new additions plant wise. I've added some _C. helferi _in the back right hand corner. Theres still a lot of filling out to do at the minute, especially in the background. I'm trying to be patient, honest 

After searching for the last month or so i have managed to find some paros  As i have mentioned above i added 7 P. Filamentosus today. They have all settled in well so far, and are currently mooching around the tank. There still looking a little pale at the moment.. So hopefully they will colour up soon.

I've tried to get some decent shots of the tank, and to be honest my photography skills are crap  Anyway i managed to get a tank shot (best i could do), but i haven't got any decent ones of the paros . I'll have another go tomorrow, and i'll get a picture posted if i get anything remotely decent.



 

Thanks for looking.


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## Lee Sweeting (22 Feb 2014)

Not sure why but the that picture looks quite blurry, the original is not like that. I've linked the picture from image shack, does this affect the quality?


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## Rob P (22 Feb 2014)

Looks brill mate


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## Lee Sweeting (22 Feb 2014)

Rob P said:


> Looks brill mate



Thanks mate.


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## Lee Sweeting (22 Feb 2014)

A couple of snaps off my phone.









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## BigTom (22 Feb 2014)

Nice one. Give them a few days to settle in and they'll be looking much better. Mine had completely healed their fins and coloured up (as much as they have for their age) within about 4-5 days.


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## Ian Holdich (23 Feb 2014)

Lee Sweeting said:


> Right update time..
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Love the look of this, Lee! 

Ime the hygro doesn't tank to do well in a low tech. Why not try some, Araguaia? This does much better in low tech conditions
Plant Details


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## Lee Sweeting (23 Feb 2014)

Ian Holdich said:


> Love the look of this, Lee!
> 
> Ime the hygro doesn't tank to do well in a low tech. Why not try some, Araguaia? This does much better in low tech conditions
> Plant Details



Thanks Ian! Thats a great suggestion, it would be nice to have a little bit of colour too. I might give that a try.


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## Lee Sweeting (23 Feb 2014)

BigTom said:


> Nice one. Give them a few days to settle in and they'll be looking much better. Mine had completely healed their fins and coloured up (as much as they have for their age) within about 4-5 days.



Yeah, they seem to have improved over night. The blacks on the body seem to have darkened up, i didn't expect to see changes so quickly. They were out in force last night when the lights started to dim, I had all 7 at the front of the tank. Such a great little fish to watch. They seem to love the wee beasties mate, i often see them stalking the seed shrimp in the substrate.


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## darren636 (23 Feb 2014)

Is that a maculatus in the picture? If so, those paros are tiny!


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## Lee Sweeting (23 Feb 2014)

darren636 said:


> Is that a maculatus in the picture? If so, those paros are tiny!



Yea thats a maculatus in the picture. The paros are quite small mate, i think they are probably about 20mm long give or take at the minute. They should grow a little bigger though, probably to about 40mm.


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## dw1305 (23 Feb 2014)

Hi all,


> The paros are quite small mate, i think they are probably about 20mm long give or take at the minute. They should grow a little bigger though, probably to about 40mm


 I've had some for a couple of years (2 male "Bintan") and that is about as big as they've got. These look in good condition and their tales look very spade shaped, meaning that they might really be the true _P. filamentosus <http://www.parosphromenus-project.org/en/filamentosus.html>._

Cheers Darrel


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## Lee Sweeting (23 Feb 2014)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> I've had some for a couple of years (2 male "Bintan") and that is about as big as they've got. These look in good condition and their tales look very spade shaped, meaning that they might really be the true _P. filamentosus <http://www.parosphromenus-project.org/en/filamentosus.html>._
> 
> Cheers Darrel



Ah! I didn't know you had some paro Darrel. Have you had any success with breeding? Yea as you say i think they are probably _P. filamentosus, _the filament on the caudal and dorsal fins are quite pronounced. As you say we can't be sure though, at least until they start producing some colour.


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## dw1305 (23 Feb 2014)

Hi all, 





> Have you had any success with breeding?


No I only bought a pair (they were an impulsive purchase in MA at Brislington on the way back from a funeral, which may have effected me), they looked very sad for themselves, they colored up really quickly, but both proved to be males. They live in the back of the lab. and I don't see them for months at a time. There is one in the left of the photo, just above the dead leaf, and the other is facing to towards us, about 6 cm to the right of it.
They have spectacular blue iridescence in their fins <  Parosphromenus sp. &#8216;Sentang&#8217; (Parosphromenus sp. sintangensis) &mdash; Seriously Fish> and usually when I've seen them they have been displaying at each other (fins out, head down), other times they don't venture out of the jungle very often.




I've actually just bought 5 more (same arrangement, MA at Melksham this time, I felt sorry for them, they looked like colorless, emaciated tadpoles). They are too young to sex, or ID, positively yet, but at least 2 look like males, and my suspicion would be that they are also near to P. "Bintan". They were labelled as P. "sumatranus", so a newly flattened ex rain-forest in Sumatra looks like a possible origin, and "Bintan" is from Sumatra.

I've got them in with 2 (also rescued) Chocolate Gouramis in the kitchen. From my limited experience of both Chocolate and Licorice Gouramis they are fairly straight forward to keep in a planted tank with soft water and live food.





I'm aiming to re-home the Chocolate Gouramis to some-one who already has a colony and after that I may have a bit of a swap around.

cheers Darrel


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## BigTom (23 Feb 2014)

dw1305 said:


> They were labelled as P. "sumatranus", so a newly flattened ex rain-forest in Sumatra looks like a possible origin, and "Bintan" is from Sumatra.



If they are _sumatranus_ then that's a good find.

Parosphromenus Project :: Topic: P. sumatranus mixed with bintan(?) in Nederland (1/2)

sumatranus

I agree on them being hard to resist in a LFS - you just know they're 99% doomed if you don't pick them up.


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## dw1305 (23 Feb 2014)

Hi all,


> I agree on them being hard to resist in a LFS - you just know they're 99% doomed if you don't pick them up.


Difficult isn't it? It is like being able to buy a Tarsier or an Orangutan in your local shop, it is just wrong, but if you don't buy the ones in the LFS they are doomed: <http://www.parosphromenus-project.org/en/politic/actual/biodiversity.html>.

I saw the sumatranus post, (and your and Lee's postings). I think quite a few of us have been having a close look at the "Parosphromenus project" forum recently.

cheers Darrel


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## Alastair (23 Feb 2014)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> Difficult isn't it? It is like being able to buy a Tarsier or an Orangutan in your local shop, it is just wrong, but if you don't buy the ones in the LFS they are doomed: <http://www.parosphromenus-project.org/en/politic/actual/biodiversity.html>.
> 
> I saw the sumatranus post, (and your and Lee's postings). I think quite a few of us have been having a close look at the "Parosphromenus project" forum recently.
> ...



On it all the time but havent registered. I think id go against their consensus of needing small tanks for them :/


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## BigTom (23 Feb 2014)

Alastair said:


> On it all the time but havent registered. I think id go against their consensus of needing small tanks for them :/



I think the fact you've got them breeding means you'll meet with nothing but interest and congratulations


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## Lee Sweeting (23 Feb 2014)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, No I only bought a pair (they were an impulsive purchase in MA at Brislington on the way back from a funeral, which may have effected me), they looked very sad for themselves, they colored up really quickly, but both proved to be males. They live in the back of the lab. and I don't see them for months at a time. There is one in the left of the photo, just above the dead leaf, and the other is facing to towards us, about 6 cm to the right of it.
> They have spectacular blue iridescence in their fins <  Parosphromenus sp. &#8216;Sentang&#8217; (Parosphromenus sp. sintangensis) &mdash; Seriously Fish> and usually when I've seen them they have been displaying at each other (fins out, head down), other times they don't venture out of the jungle very often.
> 
> 
> ...



Ah! I don't blame you mate, i always feel sorry for them too. However when i picked mine up they were housed in the shops CRS tank, so the water would have probably been fairly soft and acidic... So it was nice to see them in fairly good condition. I have seen them in tap water though and they always look terrible. 

I think Alastair is probably the best bet for re-homing your chocolates. They couldn't go to a better place than the lake


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## Lee Sweeting (23 Feb 2014)

Alastair said:


> On it all the time but havent registered. I think id go against their consensus of needing small tanks for them :/



I agree with Tom, Alastair. The guys over at PP would love to see your tank, and would be very interested to hear about your breeding success, especially given that it's a non conventional tank for breeding paros. Get it posted, i think you will get a very good response.


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## Edvet (24 Feb 2014)

Looks good Lee!
(for great tankshots a lens with macrocapabilities and a off-camera flashlight are nice, but i'd say invest in a cheap tripod first, to be able to freeze the camera helps the most at start, luckily with digital you can take 100 pics and only use the one that came out very good)


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## Lee Sweeting (24 Feb 2014)

Edvet said:


> Looks good Lee!
> (for great tankshots a lens with macrocapabilities and a off-camera flashlight are nice, but i'd say invest in a cheap tripod first, to be able to freeze the camera helps the most at start, luckily with digital you can take 100 pics and only use the one that came out very good)



Thanks Ed. As you say i think i will just buy a cheap tripod and have a play about. I need to learn what the different settings on the camera do, and how to use them appropriately. Its all good fun


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## Lee Sweeting (24 Feb 2014)

Right! I've got a bit of a problem. I've been away from home most of the day, and this morning i stupidly asked my wife to feed the fish some brine shrimp. I gave clear instructions and told her not to feed to much (i even showed her how much to feed), i got home tonight at 10, and found the tank swimming in brine shrimp. I've just done a 15% water change to try and get rid of some of the shrimp but theres still loads in the tank. Obviously they are gonna die soon and probably cause an ammonia spike which is the last thing i want. Am i right in thinking its best to do some small water changes over the next few days? Is there any thing else i should be thinking about?

She is defiantly banned now


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## darren636 (24 Feb 2014)

Oh No!
That's a real conundrum.  how about filling the filter up with floss overnight and binning it in t' morning?


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## Lee Sweeting (24 Feb 2014)

That's a great idea Darren but I don't have any floss. They will all be dying now, so my plan was to do a water change tomorrow and syphon out as many out as I can. I think I'll just have to repeat this over the next couple of days and clean the filter out. 

I'm a bit peed off to say the least. 


Hopefully all will be good. 


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## darren636 (24 Feb 2014)

Yep, water changes are now a must.


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## Alastair (24 Feb 2014)

At least there's no shortage of food in the tank for them 
Defo syphon as much as possible and do daily ten or 20 percent water changes and youll need to give the filter a good clean through too as itll be full of them now.


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## Lee Sweeting (24 Feb 2014)

Alastair said:


> At least there's no shortage of food in the tank for them
> Defo syphon as much as possible and do daily ten or 20 percent water changes and youll need to give the filter a good clean through too as itll be full of them now.



Yea I think that's gonna be the plan mate. I'll do that for the rest of the week. 

The moral of the story; never trust anyone to feed your fish. This is a golden rule. I took a chance and got burnt. 


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## Alastair (25 Feb 2014)

Lee Sweeting said:


> Yea I think that's gonna be the plan mate. I'll do that for the rest of the week.
> 
> The moral of the story; never trust anyone to feed your fish. This is a golden rule. I took a chance and got burnt.
> 
> ...



Partly the reason I prefer banana worms. They stay alive for quite a while in the tank so dont foul the water as quickly. My paros go mental for them. Ive actually gotten them to come very near  to the surface now for frozen mini bloodworm too. Took ages before theyd eat it.


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## Lee Sweeting (25 Feb 2014)

Yea I'm using banana worms too but I don't like to feed them too often. There supposed to be very fatty. The Paros love the brine shrimp too, they were going mad when I got home tonight. I seen some colour for the first time tonight, which was cool.  I just have to clean the mess up now 


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## Alastair (25 Feb 2014)

Lee Sweeting said:


> Yea I'm using banana worms too but I don't like to feed them too often. There supposed to be very fatty. The Paros love the brine shrimp too, they were going mad when I got home tonight. I seen some colour for the first time tonight, which was cool.  I just have to clean the mess up now
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I sprinkle various different bits of food in with the banana worms tubs. Currently using fine spirulana granules and everything in the tank seems to go nuts for them.


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## dw1305 (25 Feb 2014)

Hi all,
If it happens again you could you try concentrating the BBS with a light, and then siphoning them out. 

cheers Darrel


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## Edvet (25 Feb 2014)

Have you tried scooping them out? Ammonia shouldn't be a problem when you have enough well established plants, they eat ammonia. Just do some extra maintenance.


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## Lee Sweeting (25 Feb 2014)

Thanks all! As Ed says I think some extra maintenance is the best plan. Im gonna do daily 10% water changes to be safe. I'll also try to syphon as many of the little buggers out as I can. 


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## aliclarke86 (25 Feb 2014)

This is a bummer.... At least you caught it in time. I went on holiday for 7 days, measured out 7 days of food and a friend still managed to over feed. After 3 days they told me that there child had emptied all the remaining portions into the tank  

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## Lee Sweeting (25 Feb 2014)

aliclarke86 said:


> This is a bummer.... At least you caught it in time. I went on holiday for 7 days, measured out 7 days of food and a friend still managed to over feed. After 3 days they told me that there child had emptied all the remaining portions into the tank
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9505G using Tapatalk



I know mate, it's not great. I'll never let it happen again. Obviously she didn't know what problems can occur by over feeding. The fish were happy though. The Paros were showing some loverly colours which was nice to see. 


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## Lee Sweeting (25 Feb 2014)

They're starting to colour up nicely 







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## darren636 (25 Feb 2014)

lee, when will you know for certain which species you have?


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## Alastair (25 Feb 2014)

Lee Sweeting said:


> They're starting to colour up nicely
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Similar to 2 of mine that mate


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## Lee Sweeting (25 Feb 2014)

darren636 said:


> lee, when will you know for certain which species you have?



Hi Darren! I'm almost positive that they are p. filamentosus, however i won't know for sure until they mature, and start showing full colour. The good thing about p. filamentosus is that they have a specific combination characteristics that are not shared with other parosphromenus. I'm no expert though, so when they get a little older i'll post some pictures on the paro project forum, some of the experts on there should have no problem telling me exactly what i have.


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## Lee Sweeting (25 Feb 2014)

Alastair said:


> Similar to 2 of mine that mate



Ah! Is this the two you weren't sure about? Have you got some pictures Alastair?


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## darren636 (25 Feb 2014)

Paro identifying seems to be a minefield.


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## Lee Sweeting (25 Feb 2014)

darren636 said:


> Paro identifying seems to be a minefield.



Haha! I think so, atleast that has been my experience so far.


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## Alastair (25 Feb 2014)

Lee Sweeting said:


> Ah! Is this the two you weren't sure about? Have you got some pictures Alastair?



No but yeah but no. I can take some tomorrow. These are the two that come and take bloodworm from my fingers


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## Lee Sweeting (25 Feb 2014)

Alastair said:


> No but yeah but no. I can take some tomorrow. These are the two that come and take bloodworm from my fingers



Haha! That's pretty cool. Mine just run for cover when they see me. Looking forward to the pictures 


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## darren636 (25 Feb 2014)

M


Lee Sweeting said:


> Haha! That's pretty cool. Mine just run for cover when they see me. Looking forward to the pictures
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Most fish can be trained.
I always gently tap on the glass when feeding. My boraras immediately go to the surface.  Do the same with the goldies and koi in the pond. Its a 20 year habit.


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## Lee Sweeting (25 Feb 2014)

I'll give that a go mate. My boraras come straight up for food. It's just the Paros that run for cover. They've only been in a few days though. They might be a bit better once they settle in. 


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## darren636 (25 Feb 2014)

Lee Sweeting said:


> I'll give that a go mate. My boraras come straight up for food. It's just the Paros that run for cover. They've only been in a few days though. They might be a bit better once they settle in.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 wild caught can be stubborn. My corydoras pygmaeus freak out, even after 2 years of  ' training'


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## Lee Sweeting (25 Feb 2014)

darren636 said:


> wild caught can be stubborn. My corydoras pygmaeus freak out, even after 2 years of  ' training'



I don't think my Paros are wild caught, I did ask the guy in the shop I bought them from and he said they were tank bred. Hopefully they will get used to me. I know they are known for being shy though. 


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## Alastair (25 Feb 2014)

True. Mine only do it with me though and ive had them 2 years now. They come up to my face if im sat nose pressed to the glass. 
Not all do though but they all know when its feeding time and are out waiting. I believe mine were wild from what my lfs said. Probably explains the mixed species.


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## Lee Sweeting (26 Feb 2014)

Alastair said:


> True. Mine only do it with me though and ive had them 2 years now. They come up to my face if im sat nose pressed to the glass.
> Not all do though but they all know when its feeding time and are out waiting. I believe mine were wild from what my lfs said. Probably explains the mixed species.



Thats pretty cool mate, especially considering they are so shy. I'll try to get mine used to me, at the minute they are pretty secretive. When i first put them in the tank they were shoaling around together. They seem to have split up now, some of the males seem to have their own caves, and i have also seen a bit of squabbling. Its looking like i have three males and four females at the minute. However one of them is just to small to tell.


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## Lee Sweeting (27 Feb 2014)

My b. maculatus are spawning  I don't hold much hope for the fry though, I'm sure the paro will pick these off. It is a good sign however that my water parameters are good.


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## darren636 (27 Feb 2014)

Lee Sweeting said:


> My b. maculatus are spawning  I don't hold much hope for the fry though, I'm sure the paro will pick these off. It is a good sign however that my water parameters are good.


 that's fantastic
 I am jealous.


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## Lee Sweeting (27 Feb 2014)

A quick snap. 


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## darren636 (27 Feb 2014)

I find this tank very Interesting
You are using equilibrium with ro, with a incredibly low kh.  How is your filter coping. . Is it really this simple?


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## BigTom (27 Feb 2014)

Lots of paro keepers use pure RO or rain water with no mineralisation. Their blackwater habitats generally have pretty much zero KH and it seems to be important for egg development that KH remains low (whether directly or by creating a low germ load I'm not sure). With plenty of humic acids from leaves and wood creating a low pH, any ammonia present will predominantly be in ionized form (ammonium) which is drastically less toxic. So although biochemical activity in the filter may be rather low, any nitrogenous compounds that are present are much less toxic than in buffered water.

For this reason many Paro keepers do away with filters altogether and use hardy plants such as java fern and _Ceratopteris_ to help with any excess nitrogen.


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## darren636 (27 Feb 2014)

^^  thanks Tom.
So you run a filter in the sane manner as a normal tank?   I get males dancing at the girls  at about 150 tds, I have been reluctant to soften any further than 90 tds.  It twists my melon man.


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## BigTom (27 Feb 2014)

darren636 said:


> ^^  thanks Tom.
> So you run a filter in the sane manner as a normal tank?   I get males dancing at the girls  at about 150 tds, I have been reluctant to soften any further than 90 tds.  It twists my melon man.



I've got filters running as I had them anyway and I generally think a little water movement is a good thing. I've had paros attempt to breed in hard waters, but the eggs are never successful. If you don't have a heavy stocking then I wouldn't be afraid of lowering the tds.


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## BigTom (27 Feb 2014)

From parosphromenus project -

"Either a good freshwater spring close to us, or clean rainwater may be used. Because of an impact from possible air pollutants one has to be careful, but after a longer rainy period, this should be not an issue. For those dependent on their tap water. one of several, well known and industrially offered methods to bring it to the appropriate water quality must be used. These are a conductivity between about 20 and 100 micro Siemens / cm, a carbonate hardness of (almost) 0 degrees KH and a total hardness of less than 2 degrees GH. In particular, the carbonates must be removed. Therefore, some other salts (e.g. sodium chloride) may be present in a small extent.

The pH value should definitely be below the neutral point of 7.0, in the acidic range. In many cases, a value between 5.0 and 6.5 is suitable, however, in some ones not. Especially for wild caught fish and the species with the most delicate eggs. pH values of 4.0 and even less are often required . A water with the required low conductivity can be acidified well using acidic peat, but good results can be achieved with alder cones, and even with careful, controlled (!), dropwise addition of acidifying water additives ("oak extracts" or phosphoric acid). The biological function of these low pH values is not yet fully understood, but it is likely that it mainly is to suppress harmful bacteria which may attack the eggs of the fish. In fact, the bacterial load in highly acidic water is much lower than in less acidic or even alkaline water. Today you can buy good, easy-to-use bacteria test sets - for a friend of _Parosphromenus_ a good acquisition.


It should not be ignored that the low pH values of natural water, in which _Parosphromenus_ live, are mainly caused by humid acids. While there are sometimes breeding successes _of Parosphromenus_ in plain water, usually the addition of materials that release humid substances is recommended (fresh bog wood, almond leaves soaked beech and oak leaves, alder cones)."


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## Lee Sweeting (27 Feb 2014)

Tom! Have you heard of blackwater soup? Theres a recipe on the net somewhere. Basically you take a pan of water (probably ro) and chuck in a load of almond, beech and oak leaves along with some alder cones. You let them soak over night and then bring the water to the boil, and then repeat process again two or three times. The end result being a concentrated soup which you can add to your tank water to reduce the pH. Sounds like a great idea for naturally lowering pH, and adding humic acids.


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## BigTom (27 Feb 2014)

Heh yeah I have seen stuff like that. I'm not sure I need to go to the trouble really in my small tanks - I'm doing water changes with 'pure' RO (read: not terribly pure from my LFS) and with a couple of handfuls of beech leaves and plenty of wood I expect my water values will settle out somewhere around 50µs and a pH below 5.


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## Edvet (27 Feb 2014)

Boil catappa leaves, there are a load of recipes for that on the net.


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## Lee Sweeting (27 Feb 2014)

BigTom said:


> Heh yeah I have seen stuff like that. I'm not sure I need to go to the trouble really in my small tanks - I'm doing water changes with 'pure' RO (read: not terribly pure from my LFS) and with a couple of handfuls of beech leaves and plenty of wood I expect my water values will settle out somewhere around 50µs and a pH below 5.



Sounds as thought you are sorted. I haven't come across it before, sounds like a great idea.


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## Lee Sweeting (27 Feb 2014)

Edvet said:


> Boil catappa leaves, there are a load of recipes for that on the net.



Have you tried it Ed?


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## Edvet (27 Feb 2014)

I "harvested"catappa leaves of my own Terminalia | UK Aquatic Plant Society. So i just throw them in.
I have seen the recipes where you boil about 10 and get the water in a bottle. Just add some cc's at each waterchange.


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## ourmanflint (28 Feb 2014)

Looking great Lee! The filamentosus are stunning, congrats on securing a nice group of them.


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## Lee Sweeting (1 Mar 2014)

ourmanflint said:


> Looking great Lee! The filamentosus are stunning, congrats on securing a nice group of them.



Thanks Flint.


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## GlenFish (2 Mar 2014)

Nice tank set up Lee, those Paros look great! Good luck breeding them, keep us updated.......


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## Lee Sweeting (20 Mar 2014)

One of my beautiful boys at feeding time . The Paros are really starting to colour up nicely. 







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## Lindy (20 Mar 2014)

Lee Sweeting said:


> One of my beautiful boys at feeding time


wow, very nice


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## Lee Sweeting (20 Mar 2014)

ldcgroomer said:


> wow, very nice



Cheers Lindy


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## Robbie X (21 Mar 2014)

Amazing scape man! Dig it big time! And the link to the for the liquorice gourami is very much appreciated. What a stunning little fish, I think I have a new favourite fish


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## Lee Sweeting (22 Mar 2014)

Thanks For the kind words Robbie. I'm glad you like it. 


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## Lee Sweeting (31 Mar 2014)

Anyone got any experience with hydra? I've just started seeing some in my tank, there's not loads, but I am a little worried that the population will increase as I feed 100% live food (artimia, daphina and micro worms). I'm very cautious about how much I feed so I think this will keep the population under control. However I would like to be rid of them. 

Has anyone used panacur? I have read that this works quite well!? Will panacur affect my fish, shrimp, plants etc? 

Any help would be appreciated. I've never had to deal with these little besties before. 


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## BigTom (31 Mar 2014)

I've used Panacur before with Paros, shrimp and snails. Plants, Fish and shrimp were definitely fine, might have lost a few snails, I can't remember.

It really hits the hydra hard so you don't need a strong dose.


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## Lee Sweeting (31 Mar 2014)

Thanks tom! What dose did you apply per number of litres? 


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## BigTom (31 Mar 2014)

I used 1ml per 50l of the oral solution (10%) to treat both hydra and planaria. If you've only got hydra then a lower dose (try half?) should be possible.

Some discussion here - http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/hydra-removal.29790/#post-311990


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## Edvet (31 Mar 2014)

I have some hydra in the blackwater cube, i don't realy mind them, should i?. I figure fish will probably eat them if they notice them.


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## Lee Sweeting (31 Mar 2014)

Brilliant! Thanks Tom. I may try the granules as darrel suggest in the link you provided. The oral syrup is £20 , the granules are only £6.50, which is not bad at all. I've just had another look and i can see a few more anchored to my anubias. I didn't see any catch the brine shrimp i've just thrown in .

Thanks again.[DOUBLEPOST=1396295989][/DOUBLEPOST]





Edvet said:


> I have some hydra in the blackwater cube, i don't realy mind them, should i?. I figure fish will probably eat them if they notice them.



Hi Ed! My fish are not interested at all. If you are trying to breed i would get rid. When there a little larger, apparently they can take fry, i'm not so keen on having them in there at all.


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## Alastair (31 Mar 2014)

Ive used both panacur with good success and also esha gaztropex which kills snails and hydra


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## Lee Sweeting (31 Mar 2014)

Alastair said:


> Ive used both panacur with good success and also esha gaztropex which kills snails and hydra



Cheers Al! I have got some gastropex, which i bought to get rid of the bladder snails i have in my tank. I haven't used it yet though, how effective would you say it was at killing the hydra? I've just read the instructions and it only says "combats" hydra. The snails aren't a problem at the minute, and the population is quite small. If the gastro isn't gonna kill the hydra straight off, i'd rather just use the panacur and save adding lots of different chemicals to the tank.


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## Alastair (31 Mar 2014)

Lee Sweeting said:


> Cheers Al! I have got some gastropex, which i bought to get rid of the bladder snails i have in my tank. I haven't used it yet though, how effective would you say it was at killing the hydra? I've just read the instructions and it only says "combats" hydra. The snails aren't a problem at the minute, and the population is quite small. If the gastro isn't gonna kill the hydra straight off, i'd rather just use the panacur and save adding lots of different chemicals to the tank.



Its 'combats' snails and hydra mate which to me means wiping both out. I did have what I thought was hydra and used this and havent seen it since. 

If youd rather be certain theyre killed then panacur is a definite for wiping them out plus any other unwanted guests. 
Up to you mate. If youve already got the gastropex theres no harm in giving it a go and seeing what happens. 
Dont perform any kind of water change for a bit before though as water conditioners reduce its effectiveness


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## Lee Sweeting (31 Mar 2014)

Alastair said:


> Its 'combats' snails and hydra mate which to me means wiping both out. I did have what I thought was hydra and used this and havent seen it since.
> 
> If youd rather be certain theyre killed then panacur is a definite for wiping them out plus any other unwanted guests.
> Up to you mate. If youve already got the gastropex theres no harm in giving it a go and seeing what happens.
> Dont perform any kind of water change for a bit before though as water conditioners reduce its effectiveness



I just want rid of them to be honest mate, the male paros have started flashing the females.. So i'm hoping they will start getting down to business in the near future , i'm worried the hydra will kill the fry, if the paros spawn . On that note do you know what the conductivity was in your tank when you had the paros breeding?

My conductivity is a little high at the moment (160 micro siemens / cm), probably due to the frets i'm adding. I know this can have an effect on the development of the eggs, and was just wondering if you had some success with similar or higher readings?


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## Alastair (31 Mar 2014)

Give the gastro a go. It can only work or not. No harm done to anything other than snails and the hydra.  
My tds was around 180 from what I remember mate when both choccos and paros spawned.  Temp was 26 and not long before id gone massively over board with the kettappa leaves and alder cones. 
My big tanks sittinh at 168 just now and ive got breeding behaviour with the choccos and a pair of paros have made home in one of the caves and the male constantly chases any fish away that comes near.  Temps bang on 26.


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## Lee Sweeting (31 Mar 2014)

Alastair said:


> Give the gastro a go. It can only work or not. No harm done to anything other than snails and the hydra.
> My tds was around 180 from what I remember mate when both choccos and paros spawned.  Temp was 26 and not long before id gone massively over board with the kettappa leaves and alder cones.
> My big tanks sittinh at 168 just now and ive got breeding behaviour with the choccos and a pair of paros have made home in one of the caves and the male constantly chases any fish away that comes near.  Temps bang on 26.



Great! So mines not that dissimilar really, thats good to hear mate. Thanks for that.

Good news about the choccos and paros, hopefully you will have some babies in the lake soon 

I'm banging the gastro in as we speak, haha! Death to all hydra


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## Alastair (31 Mar 2014)

Just makes you wonder what possible creatures come through our drinking water. If you start a tank from scratch with invitro plants, fish get quarantined in separate tanks then transferred over, so no possible chance of introduction yet planaria etc still manage to pop up amd say hello along with hydra and those thin stringy worms. ....... how do they get there if so???


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## Lee Sweeting (31 Mar 2014)

Alastair said:


> Just makes you wonder what possible creatures come through our drinking water. If you start a tank from scratch with invitro plants, fish get quarantined in separate tanks then transferred over, so no possible chance of introduction yet planaria etc still manage to pop up amd say hello along with hydra and those thin stringy worms. ....... how do they get there if so???



I don't have a clue mate, it would be nice to know though. I guess these things are just part and parcel of the hobby. It keeps things interesting


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## aliclarke86 (1 Apr 2014)

I've put it down to substrate, but I guess if its baked it should have killed off anything living....

Lee sorry I've still not posted any downoi, the house move has taken all my time.... 

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## Alastair (1 Apr 2014)

aliclarke86 said:


> I've put it down to substrate, but I guess if its baked it should have killed off anything living....
> 
> Lee sorry I've still not posted any downoi, the house move has taken all my time....
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk



No it hasnt........its sitting in that huge garden that's distracted you


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## Lee Sweeting (1 Apr 2014)

aliclarke86 said:


> I've put it down to substrate, but I guess if its baked it should have killed off anything living....
> 
> Lee sorry I've still not posted any downoi, the house move has taken all my time....
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk



No worries at all Ali. I'm in no rush mate. Take your time. 


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## Lee Sweeting (3 Apr 2014)

Alastair said:


> If youve already got the gastropex theres no harm in giving it a go and seeing what happens.



Good call on the Gastropex mate, the tank seems to be free of hydra, and about 95% of the snail population are dead after 4 days. . Also no harm to fish, shrimp etc etc.


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## Alastair (3 Apr 2014)

Lee Sweeting said:


> Good call on the Gastropex mate, the tank seems to be free of hydra, and about 95% of the snail population are dead after 4 days. . Also no harm to fish, shrimp etc etc.



See. Told you lee


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## Lee Sweeting (3 Apr 2014)

Alastair said:


> See. Told you lee



Haha! Good advice mate. 


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## DTL (26 Apr 2014)

BigTom said:


> Heh yeah I have seen stuff like that. I'm not sure I need to go to the trouble really in my small tanks - I'm doing water changes with 'pure' RO (read: not terribly pure from my LFS) and with a couple of handfuls of beech leaves and plenty of wood I expect my water values will settle out somewhere around 50µs and a pH below 5.


Tom, how is your Ph sitting using the methodology listed?
I'm struggling to get below 5.6 using RO and peat extract.


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## Lee Sweeting (26 Apr 2014)

DTL said:


> Tom, how is your Ph sitting using the methodology listed?
> I'm struggling to get below 5.6 using RO and peat extract.



Add some beech or oak leaves, that might bring it down a little more.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[DOUBLEPOST=1398514472][/DOUBLEPOST]DTL, how come you are using a peat extract, any particular reason? I'm filtering through peat (JBL Tormec), which works great for me. However i do need to change the peat in my filter once a month, otherwise my pH starts to rise. Its cheap enough aswel. Its £7.00 for a box which lasts me about three months.


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## DTL (26 Apr 2014)

Hi Lee,
I'm already using beech and oak leaves in my blackwater tanks.
Ref the peat extract, I'm using the liquid from boiling peat in distilled water  as per my "can you tell -----".  thread, the Ph of that is about  4.5 and a couple of litres of that in a 50 litre tanks getting me to where I'm sitting at the moment. I'm using small sponge filters for these tanks per advice on the Paro Project site, so no option to filter through peat at the moment.


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## Lee Sweeting (26 Apr 2014)

Ah, I see!! I think I pH of 5.6 should be ok for your paro's. I think kH and conductivity are more important for egg development. I'm guessing your kH is 0? As long as you have a Conductivity of less than 100 you should be good mate. 

That's the problem I'm having at the moment. My conductivity is much higher than 100, probably because of the ferts I'm adding to sustain my plants. That's been the trade off for me, as my tank is my main show tank. I'm just in the process of setting up some small cubes specifically for breeding. I'd be happy with the parameters you have. 


Did you manage to pick any other species up yet? 


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## DTL (26 Apr 2014)

Lee Sweeting said:


> Did you manage to pick any other species yet?


I'm waiting on shipment details from Colin at Fish Hut.
He's advised that the Paros will come in water about 4.5 max 5, so that's why I'm trying to get down to that level.


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## Lee Sweeting (4 May 2014)

Update time! Its been a while now since i last posted on the progress of this tank. Since my last update the tank has developed a little, and there has also been a few slight changes to the original idea.

I've been struggling to keep my TDS low, probably due to the fertilisers i am adding. As you will know this can affect parosphormenus egg development. The high TDS has been the trade off with this tank as it was always intended to be my main show tank, and i'd like it to continue looking healthy and lush. With that in mind i am planning to set some smaller breeding tanks up, specifically for the paros. Because this tank is no longer intended to be a breeding tank i have since added a small number of Chocolate gourami, these are such a great little fish and very interesting to watch, the Mrs loves them too .

New plant additions have been:

Cyperus helferi
Hydrocotyle tripartita
Lilaeopsis novea-zealandiae
Micranthemum umbrosum

I tried to get a decent picture with the DSLR, i'm still not great with the camera though, haha!

Hope you like it!?


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## Edvet (4 May 2014)

, Looks good!, Needs some time, but solid.


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## Lee Sweeting (5 May 2014)

Edvet said:


> , Looks good!, Needs some time, but solid.



Thanks Ed! Yea it's starting to fill out nice, slow and steady but a joy to maintain. 

I think one of my chocolates maybe holding fry too. Her throat looks swollen and she's taken to hiding away. She's also not eating. I could be wrong though. I'll try to get a picture of her 


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## Lee Sweeting (5 May 2014)

I also added some maidenhair fern about a month ago, which is doing fairly well. 






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## Lee Sweeting (5 May 2014)

One of my female Paros 






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## Lee Sweeting (5 May 2014)

And a male







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## Lee Sweeting (5 May 2014)

And one of the chocolates 






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## Lindy (5 May 2014)

I am sooo jealous you've got choccos first!  Tank looks great.


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## Lee Sweeting (5 May 2014)

ldcgroomer said:


> I am sooo jealous you've got choccos first!  Tank looks great.



Thanks Lindy! I've had them for about a month or so now, such a great little fish. They're very interesting to watch


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## tim (5 May 2014)

Scapes looking good lee, really beautiful fish.


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## Lee Sweeting (5 May 2014)

tim said:


> Scapes looking good lee, really beautiful fish.



Thanks Tim!


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## Alastair (5 May 2014)

ldcgroomer said:


> I am sooo jealous you've got choccos first!  Tank looks great.


I've had mine ages......cough 

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## aliclarke86 (5 May 2014)

You have chocos Al?? I would never have guessed lol 

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## parotet (6 May 2014)

Awesome tank!!! I love how you, UKAPS low-tech guys, demonstrate that low tech tanks can be not only healthy tanks but also very attractive from the aesthetically point of view. I mean, if you google low tech tank, the results are not always pleasing aesthetically... at least compared with good high tech ones. But for these tanks most people won't tell the difference.

Why don't create in the tank gallery section a good selection of these low tech tanks? Selected by moderators, maybe voted? I can well imagine at least a large dozen of brilliant tanks there. I also like George farmers idea for one thread in which you include a collection of pictures and then the specs of the tank... Just that.

Jordi


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## Lindy (6 May 2014)

Lee Sweeting said:


> i have since added a small number of Chocolate gourami,





Alastair said:


> I've had mine ages......cough



I want fish


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## James D (6 May 2014)

Looks better every time Lee, I've got a lot of respect for aquarists like you who spend so much time and effort in creating the right conditions for these special fish. I moan to the Mrs about having to chuck two buckets of tap water in my tank twice a week . Nice one mate.


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## Lee Sweeting (6 May 2014)

parotet said:


> Awesome tank!!! I love how you, UKAPS low-tech guys, demonstrate that low tech tanks can be not only healthy tanks but also very attractive from the aesthetically point of view. I mean, if you google low tech tank, the results are not always pleasing aesthetically... at least compared with good high tech ones. But for these tanks most people won't tell the difference.
> 
> Why don't create in the tank gallery section a good selection of these low tech tanks? Selected by moderators, maybe voted? I can well imagine at least a large dozen of brilliant tanks there. I also like George farmers idea for one thread in which you include a collection of pictures and then the specs of the tank... Just that.
> 
> Jordi



Thanks for the kind words jordi . You have some great ideas there mate. Have you spoken to one of the moderators about them? 


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## Lee Sweeting (6 May 2014)

James D said:


> Looks better every time Lee, I've got a lot of respect for aquarists like you who spend so much time and effort in creating the right conditions for these special fish. I moan to the Mrs about having to chuck two buckets of tap water in my tank twice a week . Nice one mate.



Thanks James, great comment . I have to be honest though, this tank has been far easier to manage than my high tech efforts. Maintenance is pretty minimal really, and I haven't had to do any trimming since start up 4 months ago . It's a pleasure, haha! 


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (6 May 2014)

Ridiculously nice all round Lee. I'll have to catch up on the journal when I get chance. But you've done a fantastic job on this. Well done.


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## Lee Sweeting (6 May 2014)

Nathaniel Whiteside said:


> Ridiculously nice all round Lee. I'll have to catch up on the journal when I get chance. But you've done a fantastic job on this. Well done.



Thanks a lot Nath, very kinds words. 


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## parotet (6 May 2014)

Lee Sweeting said:


> Thanks for the kind words jordi . You have some great ideas there mate. Have you spoken to one of the moderators about them?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



No... But, any moderator out there?


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## discusdan (27 May 2014)

looking great Lee, amazing achievement!


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## Tim Harrison (27 May 2014)

Lee Sweeting said:


> Update time! Its been a while now since i last posted on the progress of this tank. Since my last update the tank has developed a little, and there has also been a few slight changes to the original idea.
> 
> I've been struggling to keep my TDS low, probably due to the fertilisers i am adding. As you will know this can affect parosphormenus egg development. The high TDS has been the trade off with this tank as it was always intended to be my main show tank, and i'd like it to continue looking healthy and lush. With that in mind i am planning to set some smaller breeding tanks up, specifically for the paros. Because this tank is no longer intended to be a breeding tank i have since added a small number of Chocolate gourami, these are such a great little fish and very interesting to watch, the Mrs loves them too .
> 
> ...


Simply...awesome...


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## Alastair (28 May 2014)

Looking great lee. Those fish will be very happy. 
Seems like I've set a big trend off with the chocolate Gouramis/paro set ups lol. 
If it's low tech just reduce the fert dosing and that'll keep your tds down. 
My paros bred in tds 187 in my chocolate box and the chocolate lake is currently 196 yet have a pair of paro breeding in a power head (which is no longer used). I've switched back to low tech now because of it. 

You'll never catch them all in their with out pulling it all up. They have a nack of going almost completely transparent and invisible. 
Trust me. 

Tom took out all his paro a couple of years ago or so he thought and yet found one cheekily still in his tank on breakdown and that was with 2 rescapes in.


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## Lee Sweeting (28 May 2014)

Troi said:


> Simply...awesome...



Thanks for the kind words Troi


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## Lee Sweeting (28 May 2014)

Alastair said:


> Looking great lee. Those fish will be very happy.



Thanks mate, i'm seeing lots of flirting from the chocco's. Hopefully something will come of it soon . I'm not sure if this is the case with the chocco's but a couple of pairs seem to have formed. I have one pair which are never away from each other. I often see them swimming in circles with each other. Is this a good sign?



Alastair said:


> Seems like I've set a big trend off with the chocolate Gouramis/paro set ups lol.



It defiantly looks that way, haha! 



Alastair said:


> If it's low tech just reduce the fert dosing and that'll keep your tds down.
> My paros bred in tds 187 in my chocolate box and the chocolate lake is currently 196 yet have a pair of paro breeding in a power head (which is no longer used).



Yea it's low tech, i should be ok, my TDS is down to about 160/180, so if your are happily breeding i should be ok. I was just a little worried about Paro egg development.

Have you ever noticed the paro's and the chocco's praying on each others fry? Perdition was also a concern, especially in a relatively small tank (not an issue for you obviously, haha).    




Alastair said:


> You'll never catch them all in their with out pulling it all up. They have a nack of going almost completely transparent and invisible.
> Trust me.



I can imagine, i haven't seen all of mine together for a while. I often see the same 4 out and about at the front, especially at feeding times . The others a little shy and tend to hang out in the caves at the back of the tank.



Alastair said:


> Tom took out all his paro a couple of years ago or so he thought and yet found one cheekily still in his tank on breakdown and that was with 2 rescapes in.



Haha! They are masters of stealth. I bet Tom got a bit of a shock


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## Iain Sutherland (28 May 2014)

Looks great Lee, wish my tank was a little bigger to add chocos too. 
Race is on now, who's breed first.... 


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## Alastair (28 May 2014)

Iain Sutherland said:


> Looks great Lee, wish my tank was a little bigger to add chocos too.
> Race is on now, who's breed first....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Cough mine have......pics up today 

Iain, do you want my 4ft shallow and cabinet from the chocolate puddle??? More room for choccos


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## Iain Sutherland (28 May 2014)

Alastair said:


> Cough mine have......pics up today
> 
> Iain, do you want my 4ft shallow and cabinet from the chocolate puddle??? More room for choccos



You don't count, you got a head start 
Should of known though! I'm a little surprised given you where having a few issues mind.... You got skills.

Thanks al, I would love it but I don't have the space or time unfortunately.... 
Have got a bit of an itch for an 8x2x1 though... :/


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## Lee Sweeting (28 May 2014)

Iain Sutherland said:


> You don't count, you got a head start
> 
> Agreed, haha! I'm looking forward to seeing the pictures though Al
> 
> ...





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## Lee Sweeting (28 May 2014)

Iain Sutherland said:


> Looks great Lee, wish my tank was a little bigger to add chocos too.
> Race is on now, who's breed first....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



A couple of my males are really coloured up. I haven't seen the dance with no pants yet though, hopefully soon. Haha! 


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## Edvet (28 May 2014)

You got to show them "how too"first Lee


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## Alastair (28 May 2014)

Iain Sutherland said:


> You don't count, you got a head start
> Should of known though! I'm a little surprised given you where having a few issues mind.... You got skills.
> 
> Thanks al, I would love it but I don't have the space or time unfortunately....
> ...



Ha ha. I see I see. No space for a 4 foot shallow but space for an 8ft. You think like me lol. Saying that my biggie will be up for free next year

Lee, if you've seen the choccos do the circle embrace that's a sign you may end up with little ones but usually first time round the female holds for too long. Make sure you have lots of floating foliage too as the babies stay on the surface


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## Lee Sweeting (28 May 2014)

Alastair said:


> Ha ha. I see I see. No space for a 4 foot shallow but space for an 8ft. You think like me lol. Saying that my biggie will be up for free next year
> 
> Lee, if you've seen the choccos do the circle embrace that's a sign you may end up with little ones but usually first time round the female holds for too long. Make sure you have lots of floating foliage too as the babies stay on the surface



Cheers Al, exciting stuff. Hopefully i'll see some fry soon . 

Whats happening to the biggie if you don't mind me asking? Surely your not going bigger?[DOUBLEPOST=1401300707][/DOUBLEPOST]





Edvet said:


> You got to show them "how too"first Lee



Haha! I'm sure they'll find their own way Ed.


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## Edvet (28 May 2014)

Lee Sweeting said:


> Surely your not going bigger


He's going to seal the windows and flood the first floor


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## Lee Sweeting (28 May 2014)

Edvet said:


> He's going to seal the windows and flood the first floor



Haha! Alastair's world of water 


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## Lee Sweeting (29 May 2014)

discusdan said:


> looking great Lee, amazing achievement!



Thanks Dan. 


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## Iain Sutherland (29 May 2014)

Lee Sweeting said:


> Haha! Alastair's world of water
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Only guy I know building an extension to fit a aquarium! Respect.


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## Alastair (29 May 2014)

Lee Sweeting said:


> Cheers Al, exciting stuff. Hopefully i'll see some fry soon .
> 
> Whats happening to the biggie if you don't mind me asking? Surely your not going bigger?



Yep my goal Has always been to have an amano home sized tank or similar.  I won't be keeping the big one in the long run I'll be giving it all away 


Iain Sutherland said:


> Only guy I know building an extension to fit a aquarium! Respect.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Lol sad huh mate 

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## Lee Sweeting (29 May 2014)

Alastair said:


> Yep my goal Has always been to have an amano home sized tank or similar. I won't be keeping the big one in the long run I'll be giving it all away



Wow!!! Thats awesome, Alastair. Looking forward to seeing what you have in mind. How many litres are you thinking?


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## Iain Sutherland (29 May 2014)

Alastair said:


> Lol sad huh mate
> Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk 2


Not at all, as long as you have an open door policy 


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## Lee Sweeting (3 Jun 2014)

Absolutely gutted!!! Over the last week or so i have lost all six of my choccos. I'm not sure what has happened?? Checked all my tank levels (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) and all are zero. Ph is 6.0 as it usually is, gH 4, kH 1, nothing has changed in the tank at all. The paro's and maculatus all seem to be fine and happy. I'm baffled, and feeling very disheartened. Gutted is an understatement.


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (3 Jun 2014)

Lee Sweeting said:


> Absolutely gutted!!! Over the last week or so i have lost all six of my choccos. I'm not sure what has happened?? Checked all my tank levels (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) and all are zero. Ph is 6.0 as it usually is, gH 4, kH 1, nothing has changed in the tank at all. The paro's and maculatus all seem to be fine and happy. I'm baffled, and feeling very disheartened. Gutted is an understatement.



Sorry to hear it Lee. It was/is looking excellent too. What a shame


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## aliclarke86 (3 Jun 2014)

Dammn mate that is terrible!! Sorry

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## Lee Sweeting (3 Jun 2014)

Thanks all, i'm not sure what's happened? Thats the worse thing!! Its only the chocco's that have been affected. I haven't changed anything, the conditions in the tank are the same as they have always been. My maintenance routine hasn't changed either. The only thing i can think of is i fed some blood worm from my LFS last week, usually they only get the food i culture myself. I just find it strange that the paro's haven't been affected?


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## Rob P (3 Jun 2014)

Sorry to hear that mate


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## Edvet (3 Jun 2014)

Cr@p.
If all fish are fine except the choco's i wouldn't think it's the tank/water that is the problem. How long did you have them? All from the same LFS


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## Lee Sweeting (3 Jun 2014)

Rob P said:


> Sorry to hear that mate



Thanks Rob.



Edvet said:


> If all fish are fine except the choco's i wouldn't think it's the tank/water that is the problem. How long did you have them? All from the same LFS



Hi Ed! Yea i think the tank water is fine, its a 100% RO and all the parameters are the same as they have always been. The chocco's were all from the same LFS, and i've had them for about six weeks i think. I'm really not sure what has caused the deaths??


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## Edvet (3 Jun 2014)

Did you actually see them feed, not only snap at food but taking it in?
Colours of the fish and the way they looked where normal? Not easily scared (zipping left to right and back)
Did you see their poop. Nice and blackish or whitish and stringy.
On their way too the distributor and or LFS they could have picked up an infection (or a hidden infection can be activated through bad living situation). This can weaken them and slowly kill them.


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## Lee Sweeting (3 Jun 2014)

Edvet said:


> Did you actually see them feed, not only snap at food but taking it in?



Yea they all seemed to be eating and taking food normally, at least up until a day or two before they died. I tended to lose a fish or two on different days over the last week.



Edvet said:


> Colours of the fish and the way they looked where normal? Not easily scared (zipping left to right and back)



The colour had faded over the last week or so, i did notice that some of the affected fish would just sit under the floating plants, and i could actually touch them, without them shooting off.  



Edvet said:


> Did you see their poop. Nice and blackish or whitish and stringy.



I honestly didn't notice the poop.

Also there was no obvious signs of disease. 

What do you think Ed?


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## Edvet (3 Jun 2014)

There's too little info to name a suspect, does look like some kind of disease to me, probably only affected the choc's, so i don't think you'll need to worrie about the others.
If you suspect more problems raising the temp a bit improves immunity . Keep the tank as clean as possible and feed as healthy and diverse as you can.
There's probably little you could have done to prevent it. It's always hard to see the problems early enough or to spot them at all.


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## Lee Sweeting (3 Jun 2014)

Yeah i think you are probably right Ed. Temp is at 26 c at the moment, and i'm very meticulous with maintenance and cleanliness. The fish also have a very health and varied diet, all cultured by myself. Its such a shame though.

Thanks for the advice.[DOUBLEPOST=1401797823][/DOUBLEPOST]I don't think i'm gonna bother buying chocco's from my LFS anymore. I might have a scan around for a private breeder, at least that way i know they will have been looked after properly.


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## Edvet (3 Jun 2014)

One more excuse to go see Al


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## aliclarke86 (3 Jun 2014)

My LFS can't even keep neo's alive I would hate too see any delicate fish in there 

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## Lee Sweeting (3 Jun 2014)

aliclarke86 said:


> My LFS can't even keep neo's alive I would hate too see any delicate fish in there
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk



Haha! Yeah mines the same. The choco's are just kept in local tap water, which is very hard. 


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## Edvet (3 Jun 2014)

aliclarke86 said:


> S can't even keep neo's alive


 Neo's?


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## aliclarke86 (3 Jun 2014)

Worst thing is I know they have the resources to keep each species but they just don't bother. I used to spend most days off in there but I started arguing with some of the staff about conditions and advice given so I don't pop in as much as I used to..

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## aliclarke86 (3 Jun 2014)

Haha very good 



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## Lindy (3 Jun 2014)

Thats a shame Lee and why I'm waiting to get some choccos from colin dunlop. Maybe if you order some too the numbers would be higher and more chance of the order being fulfilled by the suppliers.


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## Lee Sweeting (3 Jun 2014)

ldcgroomer said:


> Thats a shame Lee and why I'm waiting to get some choccos from colin dunlop. Maybe if you order some too the numbers would be higher and more chance of the order being fulfilled by the suppliers.



I think you have the right idea Lindy, i know colin has a good reputation. I'm not gonna stock any more fish now. I've had an application in for a Australian visa for a little while. My wife is an Australian citizen, so i think the visa is pretty much a formality. I'm just waiting to go for my medical (this is the last stage in the process), which is in July and hopefully the visa will be granted shortly after. I bought the paro's before i knew we were gonna emigrate.. So i'm gonna have to find a good home for them. David Armitage (from the AAGB) lives in York, so i'm hoping he will take them. I know he keeps paro's himself and i don't think he has any P. filamentosus. At least i know they will be cared for properly, thats if he wants them!?


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## Lindy (3 Jun 2014)

Wow, good luck with that life change! When I think of Australia I think 'spiders and snakes' but would like to go to New Zealand.  I'm sure someone with an interest in paros will take them. You could also try dtl on the forum, he's been waiting for some from colin.

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## Lee Sweeting (3 Jun 2014)

ldcgroomer said:


> Wow, good luck with that life change! When I think of Australia I think 'spiders and snakes' but would like to go to New Zealand.  I'm sure someone with an interest in paros will take them. You could also try dtl on the forum, he's been waiting for some from colin.
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk



Haha! Thanks Lindy, theres lots of spiders and snakes where i'm going . I've spent a lot of time out there, visiting my wifes family, and some travelling when i was younger. I'm really excited to be honest, and its such a great place for my son to grow up. 

I'd be happy to pass them over to DTL, i know he would look after them properly. Its a little while away yet, but i'll give hime a shout a little closer to the time.


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## Edvet (3 Jun 2014)

So making plans for a Rainbow tank  now?? Go research and copy a nice biotope in a tank.


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (3 Jun 2014)

Lee Sweeting said:


> Haha! Thanks Lindy, theres lots of spiders and snakes where i'm going . I've spent a lot of time out there, visiting my wifes family, and some travelling when i was younger. I'm really excited to be honest, and its such a great place for my son to grow up.
> 
> I'd be happy to pass them over to DTL, i know he would look after them properly. Its a little while away yet, but i'll give hime a shout a little closer to the time.



Good luck with it all Lee.


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## Lee Sweeting (3 Jun 2014)

Edvet said:


> So making plans for a Rainbow tank  now?? Go research and copy a nice biotope in a tank.



Great minds ed. I have been thinking about that, and also up grading to something larger. 


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## Lee Sweeting (3 Jun 2014)

Nathaniel Whiteside said:


> Good luck with it all Lee.


 
Thanks Nath! Hopefully it will all work out 


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## DTL (3 Jun 2014)

Lee Sweeting said:


> I'd be happy to pass them over to DTL, i know he would look after them properly. Its a little while away yet, but i'll give hime a shout a little closer to the time.


Thanks for the consideration Lee. Just let me know if an when, and I'd be delighted to make a trip South to pick 'em up.


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## Lee Sweeting (3 Jun 2014)

DTL said:


> Thanks for the consideration Lee. Just let me know if an when, and I'd be delighted to make a trip South to pick 'em up.



No probs at all, i'd be happy to know they're going to a good home. I'll give you a shout when i know whats happening. [DOUBLEPOST=1401821455][/DOUBLEPOST]





Edvet said:


> So making plans for a Rainbow tank  now?? Go research and copy a nice biotope in a tank.



Like this Ed


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## Alastair (3 Jun 2014)

Ahhh no sorry to hear of the choccos lee. Breaks my heart hearing of total losses especially when someone keeps them in optimum conditions. Sounds to me like they may have had Dwarf gourami disease. 
Such sad news mate. 
Any problems with rehoming the paros there's a lake here for them. 

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## Alastair (3 Jun 2014)

Lee Sweeting said:


> Wow!!! Thats awesome, Alastair. Looking forward to seeing what you have in mind. How many litres are you thinking?



I'm thinking 250x150x150, what ever that equates to. Roughly 5600 litres??? 


Iain Sutherland said:


> Not at all, as long as you have an open door policy
> 
> Always mate. Dans been, BigTom has, Gary is stopping by at some point soon plus I'm Having the garden done soon decked etc so ukaps bbq
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




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## Lee Sweeting (3 Jun 2014)

Thanks Alastair! I know mate, its soul destroying. Especially as i'm so stringent with maintenance and cleanliness, its such a shame. There was no indicators at all they just seemed to fade away overnight [DOUBLEPOST=1401828887][/DOUBLEPOST]





Alastair said:


> I'm thinking 250x150x150, what ever that equates to. Roughly 5600 litres???



Thats awesome mate, i can't wait to see it up and running.

I've got some plans for a future project. I'm thinking of going full scale biotope, but with a south east asian theme. Similar to the picture above. It will be a while off yet though


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## tim (3 Jun 2014)

Sorry for your losses lee, sometimes it's out of your hands, I'm so reluctant to keep Paros due to not feeling I can commit to their requirements, look forward to an Australian biotope if the move goes through mate, you do know ukaps is global so no excuses for not keeping us updated


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## Lee Sweeting (3 Jun 2014)

Thanks Tim. I'm not sure what happened, the paro's are all fine though, and up to business as usual. The same goes for the other inhabitants, thats what so strange, only the chocco's suffered  Like Alastair and Ed have said they could have been sick before i got them. 

I'm a UKAPS member for life mate, home and abroad


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## tim (3 Jun 2014)

Think everyone can see your giving care for your livestock top priority mate, infections and weakness from import weaken fish to the point where no matter what you do the damage is done mate.


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## ourmanflint (4 Jun 2014)

Sad news Lee, I'd definitely put money on bloodworms causing the problems if they were eaten by the Chocs.


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## Lee Sweeting (4 Jun 2014)

ourmanflint said:


> Sad news Lee, I'd definitely put money on bloodworms causing the problems if they were eaten by the Chocs.



Thanks Flint!! I culture all of my own food, i was slack with hatching some fresh artimia and thought i would get some bloodworm for a change. Never again, i'm not sure if that was the cause, but it's the only thing that has been done differently since i started the tank up. I'm still gutted about it now 

How are your Paro's getting on?


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## dw1305 (5 Jun 2014)

Hi all, 





ourmanflint said:


> I'd definitely put money on bloodworms causing the problems if they were eaten by the Chocs


 You get a lot of similar posts on dwarf cichlid forums, where people feed frozen blood worms to _Apistogramma_ etc. and then have deaths. If I fed frozen blood-worms I'd only feed ones that were red.

I think live blood-worms are fine if you culture them your-self, but I'd be a bit wary of bought live ones, because they may have been collected from sewage farms etc.  

Culturing is really simple, you need a bucket of rain-water, a good handful of leaves and a cork. You leave it outside in a shady spot and the Chironomid midges find it and lay their eggs. I usually put some wood in as well (you can soak small bits of "bog wood") and the blood-worms congregate on these wooden bits at night.

cheers Darrel


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## Edvet (5 Jun 2014)

Cork?


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## Lee Sweeting (5 Jun 2014)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,  You get a lot of similar posts on dwarf cichlid forums, where people feed frozen blood worms to _Apistogramma_ etc. and then have deaths. If I fed frozen blood-worms I'd only feed ones that were red.
> 
> I think live blood-worms are fine if you culture them your-self, but I'd be a bit wary of bought live ones, because they may have been collected from sewage farms etc.
> 
> ...



Hi Darrel! Unfortunately i did buy live bloodworm . I'll never buy any live food from my LFS now, as i said i usually culture all of my own live food. 

Thanks for the info, i may give a bloodworm culture a ago. I have a spare 40 litre bucket in the shed, and there plenty of midges in the garden.


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## ourmanflint (5 Jun 2014)

Lee Sweeting said:


> Thanks Flint!! I culture all of my own food, i was slack with hatching some fresh artimia and thought i would get some bloodworm for a change. Never again, i'm not sure if that was the cause, but it's the only thing that has been done differently since i started the tank up. I'm still gutted about it now
> 
> How are your Paro's getting on?



They're growing nicely thanks Lee. Still waiting for my males to mature fully though. Still not sure which type they are, but probably nagyi 'kuantan'

Cheers


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## dw1305 (5 Jun 2014)

Hi all, 





Lee Sweeting said:


> Thanks for the info, i may give a bloodworm culture a ago.


There is a bit more detail here: <http://www.plecoplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2936>.

cheers Darrel


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## dw1305 (5 Jun 2014)

Hi all,





Edvet said:


> Cork?


 Very important, but it is just for for the mosquito to perch on when she lays her eggs. I think that in most some Chironomids the female can actually sit on the surface film when egg laying, but they usually perch on something solid by the waters edge. 

cheers Darrel


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## Edvet (5 Jun 2014)

I'll wait till the missus isnt at home this weekend and i wiil collect all the contents of the buckets and stuf we have in the garden and see what i can collect


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## Lee Sweeting (5 Jun 2014)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> There is a bit more detail here: <http://www.plecoplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2936>.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Thanks Darrel, i'll check that out.[DOUBLEPOST=1401986289][/DOUBLEPOST]





ourmanflint said:


> They're growing nicely thanks Lee. Still waiting for my males to mature fully though. Still not sure which type they are, but probably nagyi 'kuantan'
> 
> Cheers



Sounds good flint, looking forward to some pictures


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