# Best resources to learn from...



## andusbeckus (5 Jan 2020)

I really want to up my game this year and study everything I can about planted tanks. One thing in particular that gets me is plant names and pronunciation! 

Can anyone recommend any good places to learn from? I watch a lot of youtube already mainly Goerge, Juris & MD. Any good books that people could recommend?


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## Zeus. (5 Jan 2020)

I haven't got one book and struggle with plants names also, however it hasn't stopped me.
I just use the internet and read lots of threads and ask questions 
Books are dated as soon as they get to print!


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## Keith GH (6 Jan 2020)

Good research is one of the best methods.   Make a good Mock Tank and use cheap sand or even clean garden soil for the substrate and start having fun.  

Keith


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## Keith GH (6 Jan 2020)

andusbeckus
Go to as many LFS as you can and ask questions by doing that you will discover very quickly who will help you and who are only interested in your money.   Locate the best Aquarium Club in your area they will be a very big help for you.

Keith


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## zozo (6 Jan 2020)

andusbeckus said:


> plant names and pronunciation!



That's a difficult one since it's all in Latin with also fantasy parts.. A Latin family name, actually a surname that comes first and then a given name that can be anything such as the name from the discoverer with a Latin twist or the region its found or a specific characteristic in the plant.

Since Latin is an ancient and extinct language no longer used as a working language. Even way back in classical history (Roman times) there were no absolute rules and the Latin language was divided into an eastern and western variation. The commoners living in the west region spoke Roman Latin and in the elite in the east spoke Greek (Latin). Then the Latin language migrated further west, the more it got mingled with other languages and regionally changed and it travelled back and forth again. This still reflects in Latin today. The best example for us is probably the Aponogeton. Apon is actually a Celtic word for water or spring and Geiton is Greek for Neighbour. That makes it the plant family that Neighbours the water. Presumably a Latin name in Celtic/Greek language combination

Today it still is divided into Scientific Latin and Roman Catholic Church Latin (Maybe others i don't know about) and there is still some debate among scholars about how to pronounce it correctly.

For example, i met planted tank enthusiasts being educated in church Latin pronouncing plant names differently than the people educated in scientific Latin. Something like the C in Bucephallandra. In church Latin the C behind a U is pronounced as in Butcher, then it is Butchepfallandra. In scientific Latin, the C behind a U is pronounced as an S, makes it Busepfallandra.

One could debate which one is correct, i would say since Botany is science the S would be correct. But somebody educated in church Latin still would pronounce it with the tch. Thus both are correct and there is little to debate.

Then there are certain rules in Accentuation or Emphasis on vowels in between or behind certain consonants. For example when the A,E,I,O,U is short or long. For example i behind the b could sound different than the i behind the L. Or when 2 consonants meet like LL or RR. Or when 2 vowels meet like ii, according to my reference ii = Y as in the English I (do) and not ie-ai as often is pronounced. But can't say if my reference is absolutely correct after all it is still is an extinct language.

It is far too expanded to go into it with details here at the forum. But if you are interested there are sites on Latin grammar to find on the net explaining these rules.  I experienced the pronunciation rules rather very much related to the Spanish and Italian grammar rules.
That could come in handy, to study this and hit 2 birds with 1 stone.

But in the end, it doesn't really matter that much how someone pronounces for example Cryptocoryne Wendtii. I guess i can say Wendt-I or Wendt ie-ai everybody probably knows which one is meant.


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## Tim Harrison (6 Jan 2020)

There isn't really just one book that fits all, but rather several recommended texts...

Takashi Amano's trilogy of Nature Aquarium World books are priceless inspiration but becoming increasingly expensive. The highlights of all three can be found in his book Nature Aquarium : Complete Works, 1985-2009, which is still affordable. 

My bible growing up was a book published in 1978 entitled The Complete Aquarium Encyclopaedia, edited by Dutchman Dr. J. D. Van Ramshorst, and I think it's still very relevant today. 

For a comprehensive guide to biological, chemical, and ecological processes involved in running an aquarium Walstad's Ecology of the Planted Aquarium is unbeatable; it's not just for soil substrate enthusiasts, but rather should be compulsory reading for all aquarists...

Specifically for plants there's Aquarium Plants by Christel Kasselmann 2003, which is one of the most recommended, but again it's becoming seriously pricey. Good cheep alternatives are plant catalogues by the likes of Tropica and Dennerle. I could go on but I'll post a pic instead.

But ultimately, I think one of the best resources in the world is right here at your fingertips...UKAPS


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## Edvet (6 Jan 2020)

Tim Harrison said:


> one of the best resources in the world is right here at your fingertips...UKAPS


This!


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## Zeus. (6 Jan 2020)

D Wong 2hr aquarist is a great overview IMO with some good detail as well


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## Ed Wiser (6 Jan 2020)

Every Friday ADA puts articles online from the latest Aqua Journal in English. 

http://www.adana.co.jp/en/aquajournal/

I would rather download the PDF’s like they use to have but will have to live with it.


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## andusbeckus (6 Jan 2020)

Thanks everyone! I’ll definitely check everything out especially the Walsted book I almost got it but thought it was just geared towards one method.


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## dw1305 (6 Jan 2020)

Hi all, 





andusbeckus said:


> One thing in particular that gets me is plant names and pronunciation!


The tutor at  FSC Dale tells the students to pronounce the scientific names as if they were spells from Harry Potter, works a treat as long as you "_swish and flick" _at the same time.

You are meant to pronounce all the syllables, so _Cryptocoryne wendtii_ is pronounced:

Crip toe cor rye knee - when tee eye. (I'm not sure what to do with the "d", so I'm going to ignore it).





andusbeckus said:


> especially the Walsted book I almost got it but thought it was just geared towards one method.


It is well worth owning a copy, I still refer back to mine on a fairly regular basis.

Nobody has produced anything with the same scope and detail since, and my guess is that there won't ever be another book of the same type published in the future.

She has made a couple of revisions since it was originally published, <"mainly to do with water circulation and water changes">, this whole linked thread <"Walstad Revises"> is worth a read.

cheers Darrel


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## zozo (6 Jan 2020)

dw1305 said:


> Crip toe cor rye knee - when tee eye. (I'm not sure what to do with the "d", so I'm going to ignore it).



I'm pretty sure the D is silent..  And the Latin ii is really an intriguing issue. It seems about every country has its own interpretation of pronunciation.

Here the very same question asked in the USA and it happens to a botanical question as well.
https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2010/02/garden-variety-latin.html

And as said when i look up my reference in Dutch and i guess it is based upon 16th century Erasmus works. The ii at the end of the name should be pronounced as eye only. And if you ask an Italian scholar they most likely will say no it should be pronounced as EE only. And the Italians like to claim to be closest to the source, especially with the Vatican smack dab in the middle. Also with the letter C sometimes hard like a K or soft like an S, or as a Tch or a Ts? Or in between? As the famous Roman name "Cicero", mainly pronounced as See Say Roh and in other regions such as Italy, it's "Tsi Tse Roh". Same as the Italian Ciao - Tchiaow.

I guess it simply is totally lost and one should follow the rules that are valid in the country you live in.


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## Ray (21 Jun 2020)

Tim Harrison said:


> Specifically for plants there's Aquarium Plants by Christel Kasselmann 2003, which is one of the most recommended, but again it's becoming seriously pricey.


The English translation of her 2019 German version is now available for €69.95 here.  Apparently she had to self publish the English version, which is a shame.   If you would like a copy the process seems to be you email her your address, she sends you an invoice which you pay (PayPal or bank transfer) and then she sends the book.  I'll post a few photos and my thoughts when my copy shows up so people can see what you get for your money.


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## jaypeecee (21 Jun 2020)

Hi @andusbeckus


andusbeckus said:


> I really want to up my game this year and study everything I can about planted tanks.



I see that you started this thread at the very beginning of the year. Are you still looking for suggestions and, if so, in which particular aspect of keeping planted tanks? There's a huge amount of reading material available. Some is very scientific, some far less so. Like others, I could produce a list but I certainly don't want to bombard you with stuff that would be of no interest to you.

JPC


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## zozo (14 Nov 2022)

Lately, I had a discussion with a Linguist scholar who specialized in Ancient Languages among others Latin, Middle Dutch and Old English. He gave a short video seminar on ancient Latin diphthongs but he didn't mention the 'ii' at the end of a name. And so I remembered this threat.

And I asked him how this should be treated as in Cryptocoryne wendtii / nevellii / beckettii etc.

He explained the 'ii' behind a name is the 'genitive' form in the case of 'Cryptocoryne wendtii' it literally translates as 'Wendt's Cryptocoryne'

In the classical Latin pronunciation, there is enough evidence to find that the first 'i' is short and the second is a long 'ī' in English that would be 'e' (as in me) followed by 'ee'. (as in street) In later classical Latin, the first short 'i' was dismissed and it was the long 'ī' only thus 'Wendtee'.

Tho, nowadays academic Latin, as in science classes and also such as in Botanics, then it would be 'Wendti-i'. In English pronunciation that would mean 'Wendt-ee-ee'

Anyway if you had a time machine and went back to ancient Rome or other Latin-speaking regions and you would say 'Wendt-ee-eye' it would not be recognized as the genitive grammatical case.  Then it just would be whatever invented word.


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## jaypeecee (18 Nov 2022)

Hi @zozo 

Your post takes me back to my 'O' Level Latin classes. Ah, fond memories! 

JPC


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## hypnogogia (18 Nov 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> O' Level


Not many folks speak of ‘O’ levels these days…such a long time ago now.


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## jaypeecee (18 Nov 2022)

hypnogogia said:


> Not many folks speak of ‘O’ levels these days…such a long time ago now.


Hi @hypnogogia 

Yes, I reckon it was about 50 years ago!!

Yikes!

JPC


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## zozo (19 Nov 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @zozo
> 
> Your post takes me back to my 'O' Level Latin classes. Ah, fond memories!
> 
> JPC



It seems a very interesting study... I like it and looked a tad further into it. To get my head around pronouncing the scientific plant names.

Wendt's water trumpet was discovered and described by Dutch botanist Hendrik de Wit. He named it in honour of aquarium hobbyist and writer Albert Wendt.

In this case, the Latinization of 'Albert Wendt' is 'Albertus Wendtius'

The genitive singular of a Noun that ends with 'ius' the  'us' becomes an 'i' = 'ii' thus 'Wendtius = Wendtii'




Does the Noun end on 'us' then Gen. sg. = single 'i'



Marcelus nomen meum est

ergo

'Gratias ad similia Marceli' 

And these are only a few, there's a lot more about nouns.

The AE diphthong is pronounced as 'eye' than saying 'Wendt-e-eye' then the Latin speaker would think it's written as 'Wendtiae' but it isn't...
Thus then Nymphaea should actually be Nymph-eye-a and I always had it wrong and said 'Nympha-e-a' 

But also the professional scholar said a lot depends on the speaker's native tongue and which diphthongs and vowel shifts exist in their own language. US academics teach a different Latin than UK academics and or Dutch academics etc. etc. Not even to speak of Churg Latin... Academic, classiccal and Church... 🤔 They must love complexity more than Latin.


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## jaypeecee (19 Nov 2022)

zozo said:


> They must love complexity more than Latin.


Hi @zozo 

There were times when reading Virgil's Aeneid Book IV when I considered the words 'complexity' and 'Latin' to be synonymous!

JPC


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## aec34 (20 Nov 2022)

GCSE and A level Latin teacher here! Just thought I’d wave 👋


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## zozo (20 Nov 2022)

aec34 said:


> GCSE and A level Latin teacher here! Just thought I’d wave 👋



Great!! Hi... 👍

Then you might confirm... My current teacher in classical Latin is saying... The academic or school Latin is phonetically taught as a mixed bag of Classical and Church Latin and lots of Native language influence (in my case Dutch). And it deviates significantly from the early (1 Century BC) classical Latin. And they do this just because that this is the traditional way they always did it.

I guess the same thing happens also in the UK. (?)

I wonder why it makes actually little sense if Latin should be considered an international scientific language if we still all do our own thing and thus are saying words and names differently. 🤔


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## aec34 (20 Nov 2022)

zozo said:


> The academic or school Latin is phonetically taught as a mixed bag of Classical and Church Latin and lots of Native language influence (in my case Dutch). And it deviates significantly from the early (1 Century BC) classical Latin. And they do this just because that this is the traditional way they always did it.
> 
> I guess the same thing happens also in the UK. (?)


Hi @zozo - absolutely all true. The way I (UK) read Latin aloud will sound different to other nationalities, especially since I also had a Scottish teacher at school. (The situation is also differently complicated for Greek, where the ancient variety sounded very different to modern Greek, despite what some speakers will tell you.)

The international usefulness I guess comes down to the fact we are reading the Latin names rather than speaking them - we all know what we mean when we see the label crypt wendtii etc even if pronunciations differ.

Some people are keen on speaking Latin with a recreated accent from 1st century BC. This guy is a lot of fun - you wouldn’t guess it, but he’s American:


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## dw1305 (20 Nov 2022)

Hi all,


zozo said:


> if Latin should be considered an international scientific language if we still all do our own thing and thus are saying words and names differently.


I'd agree with @aec34 comment, it doesn't matter that much, because most of the discourse is in print, and as spoken, near enough is usually near enough.

More of an issue is the <"continual name changes">. They are necessary (so <"naming represents relatedness">) and <"genera are monophyletic">. The problems can be to do with precedence and the rules of nomenclature, which mean that what was <"_Copella nattereri_"> may be a different fish from what is now "_Copella nattereri"._

cheers Darrel


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## zozo (20 Nov 2022)

aec34 said:


> Some people are keen on speaking Latin with a recreated accent from 1st century BC. This guy is a lot of fun - you wouldn’t guess it, but he’s American:


I've watched several videos from this guy before and it's indeed beautiful the way he speaks seemingly fluently Latin. I wish we all could speak it like that, they should teach it like this at school as an obliged 2nd language worldwide.

I always had a weakness for ancient extinct languages, especially the West Germanic language dialects we speak... Then when you listen to Old English from before the great vowel shift (Saxon) and Old Low Saxon Dutch they are amazingly similar to each other. And hearing it, they are beautiful dialects from the same family. A pity, they are all about forgotten, even tho we still speak western germanic, the so-called later language developments and standardizations actually drifted us further apart. Unbelievable that about a Millenium back all western germanic peoples understood each other. Different dialects but were still similar enough to have little problems figuring it out. 

But we still have quite a few familiar traces...
Eng. Brown Cow / Old Eng. Brun Cu / Dutch. Bruine Koe / German. Braune Kuh.

Back in the day, they paid each other with livestock.
The Old English 'Féoh' was livestock, today 'fee' still is a payment in German the word 'Vieh' is livestock and in pronunciation, you can't hear the difference. So if you ask a fee in Germany you might get a cow. In Dutch the word 'Vee' is livestock. 😍

That we pronounce Latin differently from country to country could also be considered a dialect... Still understandable...


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