# Ph down buffer.



## Kelvin12 (9 Feb 2022)

Hello all,
I have been reading a lot of previous posts about Ph fluctuations and not chasing it with water thats on the acidic side.  However I  have been using ' Ph down' a few times and that reduces it but then its crept up again to well above my desired / recommended levels  5.8 ,  6.0  quite quickly.   I have been using this product, ' Ph down ' where the active constitute is  Biphosphate.   In addition so far I have been using quite a lot of peat and numerous IAL.   Everything  seems to stabilize for a bit but soon creeps up to around 6.8,  7.0 mark.  I am using remineralized RO and thats keeping the TDS quite well within recommended levels .
I have PRL and CRS shrimp.


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## MichaelJ (9 Feb 2022)

Kelvin12 said:


> Hello all,
> I have been reading a lot of previous posts about Ph fluctuations and not chasing it with water thats on the acidic side.  However I  have been using ' Ph down' a few times and that reduces it but then its crept up again to well above my desired / recommended levels  5.8 ,  6.0  quite quickly.   I have been using this product, ' Ph down ' where the active constitute is  Biphosphate.   In addition so far I have been using quite a lot of peat and numerous IAL.   Everything  seems to stabilize for a bit but soon creeps up to around 6.8,  7.0 mark.  I am using remineralized RO and thats keeping the TDS quite well within recommended levels .
> I have PRL and CRS shrimp.


Hi @Kelvin12   What is your KH level?  If your KH ("pH buffering") is too  high,  pH will be hard to lower (ditch the "pH Down", it wont do your tank any good... the best way to lower pH, if that's what you really want, is to lower your KH down to the 1-3'ish range, and add botanicals such as Indian Almond leaves or filter over peat moss to reduce the pH... Crystal Red Shrimps and supposedly Pure Red Line should do just fine at the 6.5-6.9 level though, but they will probably be somewhat better off at the lower end of that range.   I am in the process of introducing CRS myself and the respected breeder I am working with says a TDS around 130 ppm and 6.5- 6.9 (slightly below neutral) will be perfect... I am  just waiting for my parameters to slowly get there and the Minnesota winter to blow over and get some decent temperature highs so he can ship them out! Can't wait!

Cheers,
Michael


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## dw1305 (9 Feb 2022)

Hi all,


MichaelJ said:


> f your KH ("pH buffering") is too high, pH will be hard to lower (ditch the "pH Down", it wont do your tank any good... the best way to lower pH, if that's what you really want, is to lower your KH down to the 1-3'ish range, and add botanicals such as Indian Almond leaves or filter over peat moss to reduce the pH.


That one.


Kelvin12 said:


> ' Ph down ' where the active constitute is Biphosphate


Sounds like a <"phosphate based buffer">. These consist of a mixture of monobasic dihydrogen  phosphate (two hydrogen atoms and a weak acid) and dibasic monohydrogen phosphate  (two alkali metal atoms (either two sodium (Na) or two potassium (K)) and a weak base) and are usually a mix of Na2HPO4 and NaH2PO4.  <"Potassium (K) would be better"> than sodium (Na), but if they are just for aquarium use? Sodium is cheaper. I'd be tempted to ask the manufacturer whether they contain sodium.

I'm not a great fan of <"pH buffers">, but if you could get potassium based ones (K2HPO4 and KH2PO4)? They won't do any harm.

cheers Darrel


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## Kelvin12 (9 Feb 2022)

Kh zero both breed of shrimps.  Its costing me a bundle in IAL and peat.  Breeders recommend slightly different parameters.  Sydney suppliers have different waters to us up here on the mid north coast.  Ph values are quite different up here compared to Sydney.   TDS recomendations are lower than yours


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## Kelvin12 (9 Feb 2022)

Dont know why the above reply didn't  go yesterday...... cyber hiccup.


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## Kelvin12 (9 Feb 2022)

Darrel, I'll  check out to see if I can get hold of those chemicals you mentioned.

I know using driftwood is an option to lower Ph but wouldn't  driftwood contain a lot of ocean salts.  Assuming the driftwood relates to wood washed up on the beach front.  We have ton of that around this coast.   OR are we talking about fresh water drift wood.   I have used beach driftwood in cherry shrimp tanks with no ill effects but their Ph is way higher and probably worry.  

Just as a side note I tried Discs buffer and associated Neutral Regulator.  As far as Ph went brilliant.   My early bucket testes had the Ph very low, 4.5 to 5.0 actually lower than I needed using just the buffer alone with no Regulator.  BUT the TDS was up around the 400 plus mark.   Using the regulator bought the Ph back to 7.0 Ph as it stated it would do but the TDS was into the 1400 mark.      So not a suitable option unless you could get the TDS down.  

Dirk


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## dw1305 (9 Feb 2022)

Hi all, 


Kelvin12 said:


> Using the regulator bought the Ph back to 7.0 Ph as it stated it would do but the TDS was into the 1400 mark. So not a suitable option unless you could get the TDS down.


That is the issue, for a buffer to work you have to have an excess of undissolved salt (the buffer) that can go into solution  and this means that the TDS will always be high when you use them.  
The buffer system most of us are most familiar with is carbonate buffering ( CO2 ~ HCO3) where you need carbonate buffering (dKH) to <"limit the pH fall as CO2 levels rise">.



Kelvin12 said:


> I know using driftwood is an option to lower Ph but wouldn't driftwood contain a lot of ocean salts. Assuming the driftwood relates to wood washed up on the beach front. We have ton of that around this coast. OR are we talking about fresh water drift wood. I have used beach driftwood in cherry shrimp tanks with no ill effects but their Ph is way higher


I don't think ocean drift wood will lower pH and you would need to soak it in freshwater for a long time to get rid of the residual salt. Sea water is strongly carbonate buffered as well as incredibly salty.

cheers Darrel


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## Kelvin12 (9 Feb 2022)

Hence the confusion drift wood here in AU is generally considered beach wood thrown up on the sand after storms.   Fresh water stream wood is river or swamp wood.   

So would dry bush or scrub wood release tannons.   

Dirk


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## sparkyweasel (9 Feb 2022)

Kelvin12 said:


> wouldn't driftwood contain a lot of ocean salts. Assuming the driftwood relates to wood washed up on the beach front


You know what 'driftwood' means. 
A lot of people call any old wood driftwood if they are using it for decor. Or selling it.


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## Kelvin12 (10 Feb 2022)

Yes you are dead right some of the wood I have seen on ebay supposedly for aquarium use looks like it should be burned.   I guess anything to make a dollar.


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## MichaelJ (10 Feb 2022)

dw1305 said:


> I'm not a great fan of <"pH buffers">, but if you could get potassium based ones (K2HPO4 and KH2PO4)? They won't do any harm.


Hi Darrel, I am trying to understand this one... How can Potassium dihydrogen phosphate  or KH2PO4 (which I'm using) act as a "pH buffer" ... I understand when the KH2PO4 is dissolved in water, the OH- ions will raise pH, but how does that act as a "buffer" - as in making the water more rigid to  pH change? and how will that help the OP who wish to lower his pH and "keep" it there. Just want to understand this.

Cheers,
Michael


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## dw1305 (10 Feb 2022)

Hi all,
I just think <"buffering is a difficult concept">. 


MichaelJ said:


> How can Potassium dihydrogen phosphate or KH2PO4 (which I'm using) act as a "pH buffer" ... I understand when the KH2PO4 is dissolved in water, the OH- ions will raise pH,


On its own it will actually lower the pH, because you have two hydrogen ions (H+ or a proton) that go into solution, and acids are "proton donors".  It is only a buffer in conjunction with dipotassium hydrogen phosphate (K2HPO4), where you have two potassium ions (K+) and its a base (it will accept a proton, and bases are "proton acceptors"). 


MichaelJ said:


> as in making the water more rigid to pH change? and how will that help the OP who wish to lower his pH and "keep" it there. Just want to understand this.


<"Different proportions of conjugate weak acid and base"> will produce liquids with different pH values.  Because they they are weak acids and bases they have two dissolution constants <"and there is a continual reserve of buffer which keeps the pH steady">.

cheers Darrel


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## MichaelJ (10 Feb 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> I just think <"buffering is a difficult concept">.
> 
> On its own it will actually lower the pH, because you have two hydrogen ions (H+ or a proton) that go into solution, and acids are "proton donors".  It is only a buffer in conjunction with dipotassium hydrogen phosphate (K2HPO4), where you have two potassium ions (K+) and its a base (it will accept a proton, and bases are "proton acceptors").
> ...


Hi Darrel, Thanks for clarifying and providing some good references! 

Cheers,
Michael


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## dw1305 (10 Feb 2022)

Hi all,


MichaelJ said:


> Thanks for clarifying and providing some good references!


You are welcome. I never really had a practical understanding of <"buffering and pH before I joined UKAPS">. I knew the definitions, but I didn't really understand how you could apply them, and what they actually meant in practice.

It was a bit like theoretically knowing how to drive a (shift stick) car, but never having done it and not really understanding  what was important and what wasn't.

It was only when a colleague explained buffering to me, <"in terms I could understand">, that buffered systems (like the <"pH drop with added CO2"> (and measurement by a drop checker etc)) began to make sense.

cheers Darrel


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## MichaelJ (10 Feb 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> You are welcome. I never really had a practical understanding of <"buffering and pH before I joined UKAPS">. I knew the definitions, but I didn't really understand how you could apply them, and what they actually meant in practice.
> 
> It was a bit like theoretically knowing how to drive a (shift stick) car, but never having done it and not really understanding  what was important and what wasn't.


That is sort of what I feel like with a lot of the chemistry that goes into the hobby;  I have a decent bird's-eye view  of the concepts concerning our water chemistry, but I am often still in the dark when it comes down to the practical implications.  Precipitation, for instance, is another one of those  I am continuously struggling with when mixing various compounds. 

Cheers,
Michael


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## dw1305 (10 Feb 2022)

Hi all,


MichaelJ said:


> That is sort of what I feel like with a lot of the chemistry that goes into the hobby; I have a decent bird's-eye view of the concepts concerning our water chemistry, but I am often still in the dark when it comes down to the practical implications


That is the issue, it is really easy to get lost in a <"very expensive worm-hole"> of "_I'll know what is wrong, if I just do more water testing and get more expensive (and better) test kits_".

I still do it sometimes, if I get a pH reading _I don't like_ with a teaching lab. meter (£250), I'll go and test it again with a desk based one (£2500) in another lab. All I need to do is get another teaching lab. meter, if it reads anywhere close? It's the solution that isn't quite right, not the meter.

I like <"understanding how things work">, but often it doesn't really help  in <"terms of practical application">.

cheers Darrel


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## Kelvin12 (11 Feb 2022)

This is right out of my pay scale by a long shot..... So Darrel what would be your best bet or recomendation of a chemical to use as a buffer if I need it later.    I understand you are not a fan of buffers and understand you might not like  to commit.   At the present time a combination of peat (quite a bit of it) and IAL with a few alder cones thrown in  seems to be keeping it at the top end of my desired Ph range thankfully but I don't  have a lot of wiggle room. 

Dirk


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## dw1305 (11 Feb 2022)

Hi all,


Kelvin12 said:


> So Darrel what would be your best bet or recomendation of a chemical to use as a buffer if I need it later


Probably <"citric acid" (C6H8O7)>, if you can get hold of it?


Kelvin12 said:


> I am using remineralized RO and thats keeping the TDS quite well within recommended levels .


Just add less/no remineraliser. The real answer is to start with very soft water (less than 50 ppm TDS ~ 80 microS) and add humic compounds (like you are doing).

Have a look at this thread on <"_Apistogramma_ forums"> and <"All the leaves are brown">.

cheers Darrel


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## MichaelJ (11 Feb 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Just add less/no remineraliser. The real answer is to start with very soft water (less than 50 ppm TDS ~ 80 microS) and add humic compounds (like you are doing).


Hi @Kelvin12  I agree with this... I used to be obsessed/addicted to  pH buffers and chemical acidifiers.  Start with RO water (or extremely soft water), aim very low with KH (1-3 KH range), add some acidifying botanicals and it will get you there _naturally_  without any adverse side effects in my experience.

Cheers,
Michael


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## MichaelJ (11 Feb 2022)

Kelvin12 said:


> This is right out of my pay scale by a long shot..... So Darrel what would be your best bet or recomendation of a chemical to use as a buffer if I need it later.    I understand you are not a fan of buffers and understand you might not like  to commit.   At the present time a combination of peat (quite a bit of it) and IAL with a few alder cones thrown in  seems to be keeping it at the top end of my desired Ph range thankfully but I don't  have a lot of wiggle room.
> 
> Dirk


Indian Almond leaves (Catappa) leaves... gives you a lot of bang for the buck. Check this chart below:






Cheers,
Michael


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## Kelvin12 (9 Feb 2022)

Hello all,
I have been reading a lot of previous posts about Ph fluctuations and not chasing it with water thats on the acidic side.  However I  have been using ' Ph down' a few times and that reduces it but then its crept up again to well above my desired / recommended levels  5.8 ,  6.0  quite quickly.   I have been using this product, ' Ph down ' where the active constitute is  Biphosphate.   In addition so far I have been using quite a lot of peat and numerous IAL.   Everything  seems to stabilize for a bit but soon creeps up to around 6.8,  7.0 mark.  I am using remineralized RO and thats keeping the TDS quite well within recommended levels .
I have PRL and CRS shrimp.


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## Kelvin12 (11 Feb 2022)

Darrel,  I found this C6H807.  (numbers are all small my computer isn't  geared up for that).   This is advertised as food grade and quite reasonable.   
Zues has been teaching me about how the numbers are placed in the chemical and what they mean.   Huge learning curve good teacher.   

Dirk


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## Kelvin12 (11 Feb 2022)

Thanks Michael I have that chart.  Very interesting.  Trouble is those trees are very rare here and damn hard to find.  Probably oak is easier out of all of them.  

Dirk


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## arcturus (11 Feb 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> Indian Almond leaves (Catappa) leaves... gives you a lot of bang for the buck. Check this chart below:
> 
> View attachment 182524
> 
> ...


This is excellent! I already have a task for the the summer and autumn hikes  Plenty of Oak, Beech and Hornbeam around here.


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## dw1305 (11 Feb 2022)

Hi all, 


Kelvin12 said:


> I found this C6H807. (numbers are all small my computer isn't geared up for that). This is advertised as food grade and quite reasonable.


Perfect, it is "E330" for food use. 

You buy it as a crystal and I think in some places (USA) it has been used as an adulterant for other, less legal, crystals and isn't freely available.

cheers Darrel


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## arcturus (11 Feb 2022)

Kelvin12 said:


> Thanks Michael I have that chart.  Very interesting.  Trouble is those trees are very rare here and damn hard to find.  Probably oak is easier out of all of them.


Catappa is also native to Australia. I have no idea if it is available in NSW though.


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## arcturus (11 Feb 2022)

What would be the effect of Purigen (or similar adsorbent) in these botanicals? Would it significantly interfere with their acidification capabilities or would Purigen just bind to the substance colouring the water?


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## dw1305 (11 Feb 2022)

Hi all,


arcturus said:


> I already have a task for the the summer and autumn hikes. Plenty of Oak, Beech and Hornbeam around here.


The dead leaves  can stay on all three of these species in the winter  in certain contexts (young tree, hedges). 


arcturus said:


> or would Purigen just bind to the substance colouring the water?


It will bind to the larger molecules and foul really quickly. 

cheers Darrel


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## MichaelJ (11 Feb 2022)

arcturus said:


> What would be the effect of Purigen (or similar adsorbent) in these botanicals? Would it significantly interfere with their acidification capabilities or would Purigen just bind to the substance colouring the water?





dw1305 said:


> It will bind to the larger molecules and foul really quickly.


If by foul you mean that the Purigen gets dirty really quickly and will have to be regenerated (soaked in a bleach solution),  I can confirm that. I had a period of time after I started with botanicals in my shrimp tank where I kept Purigen in one of my HOBs and it got dirty in a week. After a couple of weeks I essentially gave up on the Purigen in that tank and embraced the tannins. I do think, but not 100% sure, that the acidifying properties of the botanicals remained unaffected by the Purigen.  But the medicinal / antifungal properties are likely affected.

Cheers,
Michael


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## MichaelJ (11 Feb 2022)

Kelvin12 said:


> Thanks Michael I have that chart.  Very interesting.  Trouble is those trees are very rare here and damn hard to find.  Probably oak is easier out of all of them.
> 
> Dirk





arcturus said:


> Catappa is also native to Australia. I have no idea if it is available in NSW though.


Dried Almond (Catappa) leaves are readily available to buy online, at least here in the US.  Of course,  its ideal if you can go find substitutes in nature... If I would do that, I would have to do it in the fall and stock up for the winter.

Cheers,
Michael


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## dw1305 (11 Feb 2022)

Hi all,


MichaelJ said:


> If by foul you mean that the Purigen gets dirty really quickly and will have to be regenerated


I do.  It is to do with the size of the molecule, there is some comment from Seachem in @Craig Matthews <"FeEDDHA - Pink Tint"> thread.


MichaelJ said:


> I do think, but not 100% sure, that the acidifying properties of the botanicals remained unaffected by the Purigen. But the medicinal / antifungal properties are likely affected.


That would be my guess.

Here is one of the Hornbeam (_Carpinus betulus_) hedges at work, photographed today, and showing how well they hold "last years" leaves.







dw1305 said:


> The dead leaves can stay on all three of these species in the winter in certain contexts (young tree, hedges).



cheers Darrel


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## MichaelJ (11 Feb 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Here is one of the Hornbeam (_Carpinus betulus_) hedges at work, photographed today, and showing how well they hold last years leaves.
> 
> View attachment 182542



We actually have Blue beech (Carpinus caroliniana) American Hornbeam here in Minnesota.. I wonder if those leaves would offer the same benefits.

Cheers,
Michael


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## dw1305 (11 Feb 2022)

Hi all, 


MichaelJ said:


> I wonder if those leaves would offer the same benefits.


I would have thought so, all Alder (_Alnus cordata, A. rubra, A. glutinosa, A. incana_ etc) cones do the same job so I'd guess different species of _Carpinus_ will. 

It was only after <"I originally saw the chart"> (the one that @MichaelJ posted) that <"I began to start using them">. 





cheers Darrel


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## dw1305 (11 Feb 2022)

Hi all, 


MichaelJ said:


> We actually have Blue beech (Carpinus caroliniana) American Hornbeam here in Minnesota.. I wonder if those leaves would offer the same benefits.


You could try PYO "dead wood" from it as well. Hornbeam wood is incredibly hard and dense (the heartwood sinks) and I'd guess it is rot resistant as well. We've got a few plants, but people always take any dead wood or prunings because it burns really well, even when it is green. 

cheers Darrel


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## MichaelJ (11 Feb 2022)

dw1305 said:


> I would have thought so, all Alder (_Alnus cordata, A. rubra, A. glutinosa, A. incana_ etc) cones do the same job so I'd guess different species of _Carpinus_ will.


Well, I guess I'll be off to the woods and see if I can find some hornbeam with dried leaves still on over the next few days.

Cheers,
Michael


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## Kelvin12 (11 Feb 2022)

Arcturus,  yes IAL are native here in AU but still hard to find.    I have  been chasing them for a while now but with no luck same with elder cones.    Its hard to get someone familiar with what they look like.    They are forsale  via various dealers dealers but they are expensive and not always up to scratch.  Likewise on ebay from Asian dealers but their feedbacks aren't the greatest. 

I like Darrels suggestion of the citric acid.  I remembered hearing about that ages ago when I was looking into cherry shrimps but forgot all about it.  One again Darrel to the rescue.  

Dirk


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## dw1305 (11 Feb 2022)

Hi all, 


Kelvin12 said:


> yes IAL are native here in AU but still hard to find.


I'll ask on _Apistogramma_ forums and see if any Australian members have a PYO  leaf offering that works.

cheers Darrel


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## Kelvin12 (12 Feb 2022)

Excellent many thanks.  I tried a few options but people thought I had lost the plot looking for dead leaves.  

Dirk


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## sparkyweasel (12 Feb 2022)

Kelvin12 said:


> no luck same with elder cones.


You won't have much luck with Elder cones, Elder doesn't have cones. You need Alder cones. 
Technically Alder doesn't have cones either, they are actually dead, dried up catkins. They look like cones, so the name stuck. Quite different to actual cones from coniferous trees like pines and firs.


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## MichaelJ (12 Feb 2022)

sparkyweasel said:


> You won't have much luck with Elder cones, Elder doesn't have cones. You need Alder cones.
> Technically Alder doesn't have cones either, they are actually dead, dried up catkins. They look like cones, so the name stuck. Quite different to actual cones from coniferous trees like pines and firs.


Wow @sparkyweasel  You really know your cones!   

Cheers,
Michael


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## Kelvin12 (12 Feb 2022)

Any idea if pine cones work.  

I realised my mistske about Elder cones after I sent it but thought they will know what I am talking about.


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## Kelvin12 (9 Feb 2022)

Hello all,
I have been reading a lot of previous posts about Ph fluctuations and not chasing it with water thats on the acidic side.  However I  have been using ' Ph down' a few times and that reduces it but then its crept up again to well above my desired / recommended levels  5.8 ,  6.0  quite quickly.   I have been using this product, ' Ph down ' where the active constitute is  Biphosphate.   In addition so far I have been using quite a lot of peat and numerous IAL.   Everything  seems to stabilize for a bit but soon creeps up to around 6.8,  7.0 mark.  I am using remineralized RO and thats keeping the TDS quite well within recommended levels .
I have PRL and CRS shrimp.


----------



## dw1305 (12 Feb 2022)

Hi all, 


dw1305 said:


> see if any Australian members have a PYO leaf offering that works.


I've asked. This thread might be of interest <"Plane tree leaves">.

cheers Darrel


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## Maf 2500 (12 Feb 2022)

I bet they have some magnolia trees and maples in NSW.


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## Kelvin12 (13 Feb 2022)

G'day *Maf*,  my son has magnolia trees any particular version I need.   I think I have 2 maples here at home but not 100%  if they are actually maple.   I asked a Canadian friend, not fish tank related,  but thinking he would know for sure but he didn't  recognise the leaf.    Now you have spiked my interest I'll  take a few photos and post them to see if you can  ID them maybe.   Hopefully these might work with lowering Ph. 

Hello*  Darrel*,  reading that post you mentioned camelia leaves.   We have them in the garden, wifes pride and joy and now mine if they are good Ph changers.  One has a light pink flowers with sort of stripes, wife thinks you would call them varigated the other flowers on the other tree are just  bright pink.   Would these be suitable.   I used their leaves on  your suggestion recently but for another reason not Ph related.   However  are they a Ph buffer, hopefully.  

Dirk


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## Kelvin12 (13 Feb 2022)

*Darrel, * these are the camelias.


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## Kelvin12 (13 Feb 2022)

*Maf,  * I am pretty sure these are maples.  They are just starting to turn here so hopefully these might be good with the Ph.


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## dw1305 (13 Feb 2022)

Hi all, 



Kelvin12 said:


> I am pretty sure these are maples.


That doesn't look like a typical Maple (_Acer_ sp.), they normally have simple leaves with three lobes.   _Acer negundo_ might be an option, or possibly _Dipteronia sinensis?_


Kelvin12 said:


> One has a light pink flowers with sort of stripes, wife thinks you would call them varigated the other flowers on the other tree are just bright pink. Would these be suitable. I used their leaves on your suggestion recently but for another reason not Ph related. However are they a Ph buffer, hopefully.


They are the ones I use. I think they should bring pH down, I'm going to predict somewhere similar to Indian Almond (_Terminalia catappa_).

cheers Darrel


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## dw1305 (13 Feb 2022)

Hi all, 


dw1305 said:


> I'll ask on _Apistogramma_ forums and see if any Australian members have a PYO leaf offering that works.


I've <"had a reply">.

cheers Darrel


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## Maf 2500 (13 Feb 2022)

Kelvin12 said:


> *Maf, * I am pretty sure these are maples.


No, definitely not a maple, not sure what it is though.

All magnolia leaves are safe to use as far as I am aware. Some of the smaller varieties might not last long in water, I like the large leaved ones.


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## sparkyweasel (13 Feb 2022)

Kelvin12 said:


> Any idea if pine cones work.


They usually have a lot of resin in them, I don't know if you could remove it all before use. Same with other true cones, like fir etc.
I think people generally just avoid resinous material rather than try to treat it.


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## arcturus (13 Feb 2022)

sparkyweasel said:


> They usually have a lot of resin in them, I don't know if you could remove it all before use. Same with other true cones, like fir etc.
> I think people generally just avoid resinous material rather than try to treat it.


Is the wood and cones from pine, fir, and conifer trees actually safe?


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## sparkyweasel (13 Feb 2022)

You would have to remove the resins from it to make it fit to use. I don't know if that is possible. 
Most people just avoid it and use other woods that only need a bit of a soak to prepare them.


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## Kelvin12 (13 Feb 2022)

Thanks everyone for the help here its appreciated.   Looks like camelia and magnolia might be the go. 
I'll  give the maples a seperate test and see what happens.   I did a lot of googling this morning and think it might be an Acer Rufinerve from the snake bark group.  The leaf shape and bark and branch shape seem to fit.   There were some differences which maybe come from climate, (sub tropic) and the fact this tree is sitting with its roots in salt water.   They must be able to filter the salt.  

Had no idea there were so manyy of them, incredible. 

Dirk


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## Jezalinko (13 Feb 2022)

I used to use ‘PH down’, it’s a hydroponic based product yes! Anyway phosphates were through the roof so changed to sulphur based.
Really the simplest solution to keeping my PH  rock solid buffeted at 6.6 is to use ADA Amazonian or similar buffering soil.


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## Maf 2500 (13 Feb 2022)

Kelvin12 said:


> Thanks everyone for the help here its appreciated. Looks like camelia and magnolia might be the go.
> I'll give the maples a seperate test and see what happens. I did a lot of googling this morning and think it might be an Acer Rufinerve from the snake bark group. The leaf shape and bark and branch shape seem to fit. There were some differences which maybe come from climate, (sub tropic) and the fact this tree is sitting with its roots in salt water. They must be able to filter the salt.


Acer rufinerve is native to mountainous forests in Japan so highly doubtful it could cope with salt water around the roots. It really does not look like any of the common maples, I don't know any that have compound leaflets like that, but as you say there are so many of them.  Have a look where the leaf stalks join the main stem - maples are always in opposite pairs, if they are alternate instead then defo not a maple. Even if not a maple it may be suitable for aquarium use but best to be sure what it is first.

Anyway, you have the camelia and magnolia to start so all is good


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## Kelvin12 (14 Feb 2022)

Sure am on a learning curve here.....
This is the trunk on the river one.  Its not looking it best these days but its got a lot of new growth which it hadn't for a long time.    It matches up with the bark description snake bark,  grey and white.   Also the branches droop when they get a bit of age.    I forgot this bit, during early spring it gets these fine yellow mantle flower sort of things very fine and delicate  about 10cm in length.   The bees flock to them while they last which isn't long at all.  I read in the description they bear a nut like fruit but not on this one.


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## Maf 2500 (14 Feb 2022)

Actually, it could very well be boxelder maple (Acer negundo), as previously mentioned by @dw1305 above. My apologies, I think I missed that on my first look through. No other maples have the compound leaves like that, but A. negundo does and has been introduced to Australia. If you still want to check for opposite leaves see my rubbish drawing that I am going to attach below; you need to look where the compound leaf is attached to the branch or twig, not where the individual leaflet is attached to the leaf stalk.


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## Kelvin12 (14 Feb 2022)

I'll  get a fresh  branch tomorrow as this lot are realy wilted and hard to get a decent photograph.   There are definately only 5 leaves to a stalk or twig as in your drawing circled on the left.  Quite a good drawing actually.    My wife remembered a tree lopper quite a few years ago said it might have been a box elder but is vague about it...... normal...

At the moment I have 2 buckets with 5lts of RO water and generous handfuls of MY maple leaves and  also camelia leaves soaking.  Looking forward to seeing how these go.   Taking readings so will see in a couple of days.    

Been trying to look up where Slade Dingle is  but can't  find a location, possibly Ireland??.    Well kept secret.  

Dirk


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## Maf 2500 (14 Feb 2022)

Kelvin12 said:


> Been trying to look up where Slade Dingle is but can't find a location


Not a recognised place name, more a private joke, but factually accurate all the same. I live within the valley (dingle) of the Slade Brook in Northamptonshire, England. The joke (not very funny) is that slade and dingle both mean valley... I was originally going to write "Slade Valley" as my location but went with dingle at the last second.

Will be interesting to see what readings you get from the soaked leaves.


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## Kelvin12 (15 Feb 2022)

*Maf,   *Hope these are what you had in mind.  Let me know if they are not.    This tree has been chopped around a fair bit so some of the branches seem a bit odd.   This one is out the front abd not in salt water.

Some twigs seem to directly opposite as in your drawing while others are staggered.  

Dirk


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## dw1305 (15 Feb 2022)

Hi all, 


Kelvin12 said:


> Hope these are what you had in mind


Good enough for me, you can see the green colour of the branches so it is almost certainly _Acer negundo. _

cheers Darrel


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## Kelvin12 (9 Feb 2022)

Hello all,
I have been reading a lot of previous posts about Ph fluctuations and not chasing it with water thats on the acidic side.  However I  have been using ' Ph down' a few times and that reduces it but then its crept up again to well above my desired / recommended levels  5.8 ,  6.0  quite quickly.   I have been using this product, ' Ph down ' where the active constitute is  Biphosphate.   In addition so far I have been using quite a lot of peat and numerous IAL.   Everything  seems to stabilize for a bit but soon creeps up to around 6.8,  7.0 mark.  I am using remineralized RO and thats keeping the TDS quite well within recommended levels .
I have PRL and CRS shrimp.


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## Maf 2500 (15 Feb 2022)

Kelvin12 said:


> Hope these are what you had in mind


Yes, agree with Darrel @dw1305, looks very much a maple in branching structure etc so Acer negundo it is


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## Kelvin12 (15 Feb 2022)

Good work.   Been interesting to follow this one thank you all for the help.  

Dirk


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## Kelvin12 (16 Feb 2022)

I tested the Camelia and Maple leaves and was surprised at the results.  Not a particularly scientific approach but enough to see if these leaves actually worked in reducing the Ph levels. 

Started with two buckets of RO water.   5 litres a piece.   Start Ph 4.5
A good two handfuls of each leaves inyo each bucket.  
(Not the most scientific measure). 

CAMELIA.  Day 1.
Almost instantly after a good stir the Ph went to 5.3 then 5.9 after a short time.   No idea why this happened might be a question for *Darrel *on this one.
Day 2,  Ph 5.9
Day 3,  Ph 5.8  Hopefully coming down.  

Don't know if this reading would hold long term but will keep the test going and see what happens. 


MAPLE.  Day 1. 
Same aporoach after a good stir.   Start Ph   4.5.
Day 2,  Ph  3.8
Day3,   Ph  3.8

Pretty substantial drop from  Ph 4.5  to  3.8  these Ph readings are way lower than I would require but promising and again will keep testing and lowering  the
amount of leaves.  

Dirk


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## arcturus (16 Feb 2022)

Kelvin12 said:


> I tested the Camelia and Maple leaves and was surprised at the results.  Not a particularly scientific approach but enough to see if these leaves actually worked in reducing the Ph levels.
> 
> Started with two buckets of RO water.   5 litres a piece.   Start Ph 4.5
> A good two handfuls of each leaves inyo each bucket.
> ...


Maybe you could repeat this test with remineralized RO water. The dKH of the RO water should be very low, and the pH readings you are getting (including the pH swing with the Camelia) might be influenced by this. With some carbonate buffering in the RO water the results should be more accurate .


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## Kelvin12 (16 Feb 2022)

This was straight RO water I used.   What TDS would you suggest.   I can certainly remineralise easy enough.   I have plenty of leaves for a re-test.  as we are going into autum now and leaves are plentiful.   I was actually thinking of doing another test just to verify anyhow in the next few days.     

Dirk


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## ian_m (16 Feb 2022)

Kelvin12 said:


> Sarted with two buckets of RO water. 5 litres a piece. Start Ph 4.5


You cannot measure the pH of RO water, its value will likely be all over the place as not really an excess of H+ ions (pH) in RO water. Google for more technical reason or wait for @dw1305 to give a more concise answer.


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## arcturus (16 Feb 2022)

Kelvin12 said:


> This was straight RO water I used.   What TDS would you suggest.   I can certainly remineralise easy enough.   I have plenty of leaves for a re-test.  as we are going into autum now and leaves are plentiful.   I was actually thinking of doing another test just to verify anyhow in the next few days.


Just add some carbonates to the water. 2° dKH should be enough for this task. You can use any of these to get there (copied from James' planted tank):
1.5g NaHCO3 in 25 litres of water = 2 dKH
1.8g KHCO3 in 25 litres of water = 2 dKH
1.2g K2CO3 in 25 litres of water = 2 dKH

As an alternative, mix 50% RO with 50% tap water. You should also have sufficient KH if you do that. Looking forward for the results of this experiment


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## dw1305 (16 Feb 2022)

Hi all,
edit: what @arcturus says


Kelvin12 said:


> Almost instantly after a good stir the Ph went to 5.3 then 5.9 after a short time. No idea why this happened might be a question for *Darrel *on this one.


It could be absolutely anything, probably just a <"substance on the exterior on the leaves">, possibly just dust. It is the issue that @ian_m mentions, pH isn't a useful measurement in pure water.


Kelvin12 said:


> What TDS would you suggest. I can certainly remineralise easy enough.


Probably about <"2dKH carbonate buffering"> and then add some <"neutral salt"> (NaCl, KCl, CaCl2.2H2O etc) to raise the conductivity to ~500 microS (300 ppm TDS). The pH meter should then read somewhere near pH8 and also stabilise relatively quickly.  The neutral salt doesn't change the pH at all it just raises the conductivity of the solution and anywhere near 500 microS will do.


> 1.5g NaHCO3 in 25 litres of water = 2 dKH
> 1.8g KHCO3 in 25 litres of water = 2 dKH
> 1.2g K2CO3 in 25 litres of water = 2 dKH


Have a look a the the Hornbeam (_Carpinus betulus_)  thread on <"_Apistogramma_ forums">

cheers Darrel


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## Kelvin12 (16 Feb 2022)

*ian-m,  *never knew Ph was unreliable in RO.  That always worried me that I was getting the odd reading and was blaming the meter.   I binned the ebay special for that reason and bought a Hanna meter.   
This  forum sure is a learning curve. 
Dirk


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## Kelvin12 (16 Feb 2022)

Should I use the same amount of leaves in the 25 lt mix, a generous handful.   I am thinking the 25 lt would be a more reliable result rather than the 5 lt bucket currently.      
Dirk


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## arcturus (16 Feb 2022)

Kelvin12 said:


> Should I use the same amount of leaves in the 25 lt mix, a generous handful.   I am thinking the 25 lt would be a more reliable result rather than the 5 lt bucket currently.
> Dirk


Hmmm... good question. The concern with using 25l container is that the pH drop might be rather small unless you add a bunch of leaves to it. But the larger container would better simulate the conditions in a tank. Let's wait for the input of those who have experience with botanicals!


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## X3NiTH (16 Feb 2022)

If anyone is having problems sourcing the correct botanicals for acid pH moderation and just wants to cut to the chase then this is the molecule you are looking for.





The Behemoth that is C76H52O46, Tannic Acid.

For @Kelvin12 in Oz he can go here for a supply, maybe buy some extras to put all that acid to use and brew a cheeky Chardonnay!

Anyone in the UK want some can get it here.


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## ian_m (17 Feb 2022)

Kelvin12 said:


> *ian-m, *never knew Ph was unreliable in RO. That always worried me that I was getting the odd reading and was blaming the meter. I binned the ebay special for that reason and bought a Hanna meter.
> This forum sure is a learning curve.
> Dirk


A good experiment I remember seeing was, place pH probe in low pH calibration solution (4 ?) and then in RO water and you get one pH reading, below 7 generally, then in high pH calibration solution (11 ?) and back in RO water and you get a different reading, above 7 generally. This is because RO water has no buffering capacity, buffering capacity is the ability of water to keep pH stable as acids or alkalis are added. 

Generally you need a hardness above 4dH before you can get reliable pH (and quite a few tests) a meaningful reading. This can easily be achieved by mixing RO water with tap water or adding calcium/magnesium carbonate to the right levels.


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## Kelvin12 (17 Feb 2022)

Thank you *X3NiTH *for another option had no idea these chemicals were out there.  I have  been making notes of all these possibilities.
Tannic acid might be a good excuse to get back into home brewing..,...

Dirk


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## Kelvin12 (17 Feb 2022)

Thank you* ian_m*, interesting post your one.   Ph is a weird one to get the head around.   Thankfully this forum and yourself are happy to share the knowledge and offer explanations.   

GH hardness is a bit low in the PRL tank (2dGH) so I need to raise that to 4GH so perhaps I have been getting an incorrect Ph reading all along.   

Dirk


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## Kelvin12 (18 Feb 2022)

Leaves are all the tanks now, (sumps in bags) both maple and camelia and all looks very stable.   Just need to add leaf litter to the substrate now after the rebuilds to keep the inmates busy and happy.  

Dirk


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## ian_m (18 Feb 2022)

Also be very careful about chasing mythical cure all numbers.

Many people expend great effort achieving some value or other (ie pH of 6.3465) for a reason they can no longer remember and fail to notice their plants are extremely unhealthy, algae is having a whale of a time and live stock dying....but hey ho their pH is accurate they falsely believe.

I would severely doubt a hobby user could get a pH more accurate than 0.5, taking into account quality of test kits, especially test kits compared to pH probes, and the simple fact the water has loads of other stuff in it.


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## Kelvin12 (18 Feb 2022)

Yes good point I am certainly realizing this fact especially with this particular discussion.   So much I didn't  know and still don't.....  I was trying to achieve an exact number that I would probably never get to.    

Dirk


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## Kelvin12 (2 Mar 2022)

Well the leaves are working extremely well.  Took a lot to get the quantities right but all seems quite stable at the moment with  Ph at 6.5.  Very happy here.   
 Camelia is ahead in the stability race but the tannin is about the shade of a strong cup of tea maybe slightly less.  The maple isn't to far behind and the tannin is slightly less.   Probably would not be suitable to a lot of people but great for shrimp breeding.   Mine haven't  started yet so going on others recomendations.  

The ammount of leaves needed is quite high.  For my quantity of water 70 lts and 120 lts its basically 10 lt  buckets loosely filled.    I have sumps so the leaves aren't in the tanks themselves.  A small nanno pump helps in the circulation in the sumps.  

Got to thank *Darrel *here for the above idea and plus the citric acid tip to get the Ph up a tad when needed while the leaves settled.  That citric sure is strong and a pinch was all that was needed. 

Dirk.


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