# Are Salt Baths Effective?



## AverageWhiteBloke (30 Nov 2018)

Just wondering, I bought 4 Endler Guppies from the LFS about 2 weeks ago. two of the females have developed firstly one what appears to be a bit of fungus on its mouth and the other female what appears to be a very slight swelling on its stomach although this fish was very lucky in so far as about two days it leapt from the tank on to my desk right in front of my eyes which I quickly scooped up and put straight back in the tank so not sure if this is secondary damage.

I do have a container and some tonic salt so was going to tray a short bath, Anyone know how many grams per ltr I should add?


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## AverageWhiteBloke (30 Nov 2018)

So far I'm getting 10 to 30 grams per ltr for 30 mins from here. Sound about right?


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## alto (30 Nov 2018)

Livebearers usually tolerate salt baths better than most freshwater species 

I suspect this may be columnaris as it’s so prevelant in guppy (& endler) strains
- and females seem more severely affected for whatever reason 

Hikari’s Bifuran would be my first choice but as you likely won’t manage access, salt is worth a go
I don’t recall if your tap is hard or soft (this can affect columnaris biochemistry)

I’d begin with 1Tablespoon salt / 37 litres, then increase this to 2T / 37 litres on day 2 
If fish seem to respond well, gradually increase to 4T / 37 litres 

Not exactly the shortterm bath you’re asking after but if it is columnaris, you want a continuous bath 
Daily water changes and low fish stocking density definitely improve resistance/recovery in case of columnaris 

Obviously this is best done in a hospital tank


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## AverageWhiteBloke (30 Nov 2018)

I'll need to keep an eye on it mate. I may have to set up a small tank. They currently reside in a shrimp tank so very dubious about any meds. My water is also very soft.


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## Andrew Butler (30 Nov 2018)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> They currently reside in a shrimp tank so very dubious about any meds


I've used Esha 2000 in a tank with shrimp in and they've been fine.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (30 Nov 2018)

Andrew Butler said:


> I've used Esha 2000 in a tank with shrimp in and they've been fine.


I've just ordered some Andrew, was reading the online pdf and it says you may need to double the dose of you have soft water. Do you have soft water and how did you dose?

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## alto (30 Nov 2018)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> you may need to double the dose of you have soft water



I would be very wary of this recommendation - many medications used in treating fish are actually more effective in soft water 

This is an old report of esha 2000 ingredients 



> ESHA 2000 (UK) - INGRED: 6.3 mg *ethacridine lactate*, (AKA: Rivanol, an antibacterial acridine, sometimes used to treat shigella.) 1 mg *proflavin*, an acridine closely related to acriflavin and used for protozoans (velvet), gram positive bacteria, and fungus. 3.2 mg *Copper* ++ - Treats: protozoans (ich and velvet). Note: Effective against parasites, but often toxic to fish, especially in soft water. 0.26 mg *methyl orange* - a multifunctional product.



while it’s possible that the medication has been reformulated, I’d confirm ingredients with esha tech support 

Incidentally while these ingredients may be supportive against secondary infections, they won’t impact Columnaris (bacteria)to any significant degree


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## alto (30 Nov 2018)

*Columnaris disease in fish: a review with emphasis on bacterium-host interactions*

Annelies Maria DeclercqEmail author, 
Freddy Haesebrouck, 
Wim Van den Broeck, 
Peter Bossier and 
Annemie Decostere
Veterinary Research.   2013   44:27



https://veterinaryresearch.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1297-9716-44-27

This review article is hosted on several sites, some of which  include full access


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## AverageWhiteBloke (30 Nov 2018)

This was the bit I was referring to mate. Says increase dose in cases of low KH below 4. Mine is around 2. Also copper in the ingredients is a worry.




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## AverageWhiteBloke (30 Nov 2018)

Also says shrimp safe in the FAQ which Andrew has confirmed. If it's no use for sorting the fungus it looks like a good all round med to have on standby for a quarantine tank....which is what I should have done in the first place to avoid this situation 

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## alto (1 Dec 2018)

Yeah that was the online instructions I found 

No idea why they would suggest increasing dosage in soft water - it’s in contradiction with most research texts

It’s possible there is some oddity to the makeup of esha 2000 that comes into play - though I can’t imagine what without some direction supplied by the company 

Trying this is a hospital tank is one thing, I’d certainly not increase dosage in my planted, gorgeous shrimp tank 

Established shrimp can be very stable/resistant to environmental changes EXCEPT if they’ve just moulted 
(why people will often report just a few shrimp losses)


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## Andrew Butler (1 Dec 2018)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> I've just ordered some Andrew, was reading the online pdf and it says you may need to double the dose of you have soft water. Do you have soft water and how did you dose?


My water is far from soft and infact very hard so I can't help you there.
I did dose according to their instructions and when I enquired to Esha about using their products; namely Exit and 2000 both together and with shrimp and whether the product formulation had changed this is what they told me..............

_*Dear Andrew, 

Thank you for your interest in our products! You can use eSHa 2000 and eSHa EXIT at the same time. eSHa 2000 contains a little bit of copper and although we do not have any negative results with shrimps (even in overdose), we have heard that shrimps can not tollerate a lot of copper. Since we only use a bit, we do not think that it will be a problem. Please read the leaflets of both products very carefully before use and follow all instructions. (do not use waterconditioner, water parameters must be fine before use, siphon the gravel if you have used waterconditioners etc.) Please dose at a time where you can check your aquarium regularly and perform a waterchange if you think something is wrong. EXIT does not contain copper and is safe for shrimps if instructions are followed. 
After treatment you can use eSHa Optima to speed up recovery. 

Kind regards, 
Nikki Boumans 
Team eSHa Labs*_
_


alto said:



			while it’s possible that the medication has been reformulated, I’d confirm ingredients with esha tech support
		
Click to expand...

_They confirmed to me back in May that they were unchanged and maybe the above might answer some of your questions.
It did cure my mums' tank when she had what's thought to be tetra disease.

I know from my experience that using Exit and 2000 at the same time following their dosage guidelines has been fine and I have also separately used Gastropex against hydra with success after a second dose.



alto said:


> without some direction supplied by the company


I messaged them on facebook (esha labs) but it took 3 days for them to get back to me which isn't great if you're trying to treat an infection etc!

Just remember to remove carbon if you have some running.
A bit of a question myself about treatments and Purigen; how does that work with these kinds of things? - do you need to remove it and will it have the same effect adding it in afterwards as carbon?



AverageWhiteBloke said:


> If it's no use for sorting the fungus it looks like a good all round med to have on standby for a quarantine tank


I keep both Exit and 2000 on standby now, interesting to know your experience if you use it on your fungus.
I'm sure I used it against a mouth fungus on a gourami a few years back and it worked.


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## MirandaB (1 Dec 2018)

A Methylene blue bath would be more effective than a salt bath


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## AverageWhiteBloke (1 Dec 2018)

Thanks for all your input guys, I did the salt bath at 20 grams per litre. The fungus appears to have gone on the one that had it on its mouth. The one with it on its side following closer inspection seems to have lost most of its pectoral fin when I could see it clearly in the salt bath box. I have the Esha2000 on its way so will come in handy for a quarantine tank which I will be setting up the next time I intend to be buying some fish.

I'll keep you informed how I get on.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (1 Dec 2018)

Just to add, not sure if this has any relevance but might be worth noting. The guy who runs my LFS who is also a renowned Discus breeder before he opened his own shop said the only meds he recommended for fungus, finrot, white spot and most bacterial infections was the Interpet ones. On internal parasites he used NT Labs ones. When I asked if he had some he didn't even have any although in his back spot where he keeps his breeding Discus pairs not open to the public he showed me which bottles he meant. 

Make of that what you will, obviously wasn't trying to sell me something has he didn't have any to sell me and appeared to be actually using it himself.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (2 Dec 2018)

Just to add, that sounds a bit bizarre him using stuff that he didn't sell but he had a display with the full range of water life products on so maybe he had some deal with his supplier. 

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## AverageWhiteBloke (30 Dec 2018)

In the wars with these Endlers. Noticed a couple of weeks ago that one of the females wasn't eating and white stringey faces  decided to make a start on treating for worms with Harker Verm just to be on the safe side in case it infected the rest of the tank. The fish was doing lots of heavy breathing and sitting on the bottom. Now I'm on day 6 of treating with Harkers with 25% water changes daily. The fish now seems to want to hang at the surface although its breathing seems ok. Only thing I have noticed is it seems to be quite bloated but not really over the top. Sort of stuck in two minds now whether it could be still ill in some way or ready to give birth, would have thought it would hide in the plants though rather than open water. 

Was toying with the idea of maybe setting up a hospital tank but I've just realised a Boyo heater I bought many, many moons ago has a two pin plug on, the type with flat pins and can't find a converter locally. Can't just keep throwing meds at this fish for the sake of the other inhabitants. Is it just a case of cutting the plug off this heater and wiring it to a normal plug? Wondering if I should give up the fight here and just see what happens, already spent £25 on a £2 fish and it may be that it's just going to give birth?


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## AverageWhiteBloke (30 Dec 2018)

Just to add it seems lively enough reacting to other fish passing.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (2 Jan 2019)

Little Update. Woke up to 4 Endler fry on news days and the female still hanging at the surface but looking considerably thinner so I'm assuming the fry were hers. Came in today to find the 4 fry still here but the female is MIA. Checked about round the tank and in it and can't find a corpse at all. Not looking good for her at the moment.


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## Geoffrey Rea (5 Jan 2019)

Good news about the fry, not so good for mum though... Any joy finding her?


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## Geoffrey Rea (5 Jan 2019)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Just to add, not sure if this has any relevance but might be worth noting. The guy who runs my LFS who is also a renowned Discus breeder before he opened his own shop said the only meds he recommended for fungus, finrot, white spot and most bacterial infections was the Interpet ones.



Also adding a vote for Interpet treatments  Learned that their products are effective the hard way unfortunately following a few outbreaks over recent years. Particularly fungus and fin rot, white spot and disease away treatments. I won’t bad mouth other brands but it’s up to everyone to come to their own conclusions.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (5 Jan 2019)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> Good news about the fry, not so good for mum though... Any joy finding her?



No joy with the female. I deliberately let the tank get weedy so there was plenty of safe havens for her and the fry so not sure if she died in the tank. The fry are still here and seem quite happy, all the other fish appear to be feeding and not shedding so I'm hoping the worming as worked and stopped treating. Only issue I have now is the second female is getting a bit of hassle now I'm down to two males and one female, hopefully they don't stress her too much until these fry grow a bit and take the pressure off. Going to do a large water change and clip out today now the fry maybe aren't as fragile. I doubt I'll come across the body of the female if she did die in the tank as I have lots of shrimp and they probably stripped her. Not sure if a second worming treatment may be required just in case the dead female released any parasites to look for a new host.


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