# John ines ericaceous



## Andy Thurston (7 May 2013)

Hi folks has anybody used john ines ericaceous compost in a tank?
Ive heard its similar to john ines number 3 but without any added lime

Im starting a 90l npt and was thinking about using this as substrate 
Im not sure of its makeup and wondered if anybody knew if its the same as no3 without the lime, or not


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## biffster (7 May 2013)

this is what it says on the bag a traditional mix of loam peat and grit
i dont see why it can't be used be used there is no  mention of any 
fertiliser on the bag


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## Andy Thurston (7 May 2013)

It just seemed daft to use something with lime in as substrate when they make the same stuff without lime in, especially when my tap water is sometimes quite hard. So unless someone else tells me they've had a bad time with this im going to try it and see


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## Andy Thurston (7 May 2013)

Just found this 

John Innes Composts explained


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## biffster (7 May 2013)

the thing i read it off  doesn't have anything about flowers of sulphur  super phosphate that is strange ???


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## Andy Thurston (7 May 2013)

Its got flowers of sulpher to make ph lower instead of limestone which makes ph higher
It has less super phosphate than number3 
It also has no hoof and horn meal or potassium sulphate in it, which provide some nutrients. I suppose i could add these first


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## biffster (7 May 2013)

i would leave them out to be honest and just add something that would supply some 
iron to it


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## sciencefiction (8 May 2013)

You probably don't want to mix iron and peat based soil together. According to Diana Walstad, the iron in acidic enviroment/soil will react and cause iron toxicity to the plants.


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## Alastair (8 May 2013)

Big tom trialled this particular mix of compost and although it kept ph nice and low it did bump up the TDS of the water quite alot apparently


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## BigTom (8 May 2013)

Alastair said:


> Big tom trialled this particular mix of compost and although it kept ph nice and low it did bump up the TDS of the water quite alot apparently



Yup. pH was 6.something and tds went through the roof.


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## Andy Thurston (8 May 2013)

Tds must come from the flowers of sulphate thats in it. would this reduce with time or will tds stay high for ever?  How long did you trail it for tom?
 How much does the lime in ji3 affect ph?


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## BigTom (8 May 2013)

Big clown said:


> Tds must come from the flowers of sulphate thats in it. would this reduce with time or will tds stay high for ever? How long did you trail it for tom?
> How much does the lime in ji3 affect ph?


 
I only did a test run of a day or two, no idea how long it'll take to deplete. JI3 will put pH around 7.5 in my experience, and add an extra 100-200 TDS to whatever is already in your water. Obviously will vary depending on how much you use. If you're after something that won't effect your water much then the blue bag 'Original Aquasoil' on ebay is just loam and grit.


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## sciencefiction (8 May 2013)

I used a bag of each of Homebase topsoil and B&Q topsoil(the peat free version but it contains compost) in one tank and it hasn't moved either my Gh, Kh, Ph or TDS at all. I mineralized it first as well.
When I used JBL aquabasis plus it increased my TDS and it took several months to get it down.


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## Andy Thurston (8 May 2013)

Not sure what tds are in tap. it is ph7.5 and in my small tank it climbs to ph8 overnight. I have to use 50% ro water in that to get a stable ph 7.5 so i suspect tds are fairly high 
I dont mind using ro water in there cos its only a 20l water change
If you can get plain loam and grit, i'll use that and add peat to buffer ph


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## Alastair (8 May 2013)

The genuine pond aqua soil contains all 3 loam peat and grit so I would opt for this to keep things how you want them. I have used this previously and am about to use it again. My ph was always around 6 to 6.5 in my low tech. Never had problems with tds either directly from the soil


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## biffster (9 May 2013)

if i have to use a soil or loam in my tanks i use j Arthur bowers aquatic compost its 
designed for pounds i have never had any problems when using this


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## biffster (9 May 2013)

just found this if its any good it tells you what is in the j Arthur bowers version of it
http://www.jarthurbowers.co.uk/files/uploads/file/Gardening/COSSH%20PDFS/composts/Ericaceous_%20Compost.pdf


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## Alastair (9 May 2013)

biffster said:


> if i have to use a soil or loam in my tanks i use j Arthur bowers aquatic compost its
> designed for pounds i have never had any problems when using this



Again though I think the original poster Is looking for a lime free soil and the arthur bowers aquatic compost contains lime too which will up gh etc


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## biffster (9 May 2013)

i myself have not found a problem with high ph when using it 
i find it stabilises my ph around 6.8


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## dw1305 (9 May 2013)

Hi all,


> Again though I think the original poster Is looking for a lime free soil and the arthur bowers aquatic compost contains lime too which will up gh etc


The "Flowers of Sulphur" is an allotrope of elemental sulphur S (S8), it isn't particularly soluble but will be converted to sulphuric acid (H2SO4) over time in the substrate, lowering pH.

The "superphosphate" is mono-calcium phosphate Ca(H2PO4)2.H20 it is soluble, and it is slightly acidic, so will raise TDS and dGH, but lower pH. It doesn't add any dKH, and any reservoir of carbonates (coral gravel - H+ ion acceptors) will go into solution and may be totally depleted if the addition of acids (H+ ion donors) is high enough.

At lower pH values other elements may like iron (Fe++) will become plant available.

cheers Darrel


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## Andy Thurston (9 May 2013)

The superphosphate in ericaceous compost is less than ji3, so surely ericaceous should have less tds, especialy as ji3 is 8% more loam. So why did big tom get more tds from ericaceous when he tried it

Its looking like both john ines mixes have just been binned in favor of genuine pond aqua soil


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## Alastair (9 May 2013)

Lol. Its good stuff the pond soil anyway. My plants never seemed to be short of nutrients in anyway in my previous tank and hopefully won't in my new one either


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## dw1305 (9 May 2013)

Hi all,


Big clown said:


> The superphosphate in ericaceous compost is less than ji3, so surely ericaceous should have less tds, especialy as ji3 is 8% more loam. So why did big tom get more tds from ericaceous when he tried it


It isn't quite as straightforward as that, ppm TDS (really measured as conductivity in microS, and then multiplied by ~0.6) is a measure of all dissolved salts. Some compounds will be insoluble at higher pH values, so once you get above pH7 compounds like CaCO3 (limestone) or calcium phosphate (Ca(H2PO4)2·H2O) will be insoluble.

Lower the pH and these sorts of compounds will start to go into solution, raising the TDS.

cheers Darrel


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## sciencefiction (9 May 2013)

That's interesting Darrel. Thanks. I am wondering how that works as I have hardish tap water(Kh-8 and Gh-12) but the water comes out of my tap at a Ph of 6.6 due to extra CO2 and then settles at 7.4 once it gasses off. But the TDS isn't much different between tap and tank, possibly 20ppm difference max and that's maybe because of the extra nitrate and stuff that are in the tanks.
When I used JBL aquabasis plus it shot the TDS a 100ppm beyond what it already was in the tank without changing the Ph. The fish didn't like it one bit as it was a fast one.


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## Andy Thurston (9 May 2013)

Id be happy if my ph was 7.4 and stable but its stable at 8 - 8.2.  if aqua base keeps ph in tank closer to ph from tap. tds shouldnt be a problem with my water at ph7.5.
This is probably worth trying and keeping an eye on tds to see


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## dw1305 (9 May 2013)

Hi all,


sciencefiction said:


> I am wondering how that works as I have hardish tap water(Kh-8 and Gh-12) but the water comes out of my tap at a Ph of 6.6 due to extra CO2 and then settles at 7.4 once it gasses off


Makes sense, the dissolved CO2 doesn't effect the alkalinity or the TDS. It is at a higher than atmospheric level in the water main, probably because the water has been under pressure (and cold) and then just out-gases until it reaches equilibrium with atmospheric levels and then the pH rises as the CO2 ~ HCO3- equilibrium moves towards HCO3-. Exactly the same effect you would get when you stopped adding CO2 via a diffuser.

cheers Darrel


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## sciencefiction (9 May 2013)

Thanks Darrel. Yes, it makes sense.


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## matt (6 Jun 2013)

Alastair said:


> The genuine pond aqua soil contains all 3 loam peat and grit so I would opt for this to keep things how you want them. I have used this previously and am about to use it again. My ph was always around 6 to 6.5 in my low tech. Never had problems with tds either directly from the soil



Hi,
Is this genuine pond aqua soil your talking about
the one that comes in the blue and white packaging,and available from Amazon.
Just want to check I will be getting the right stuff.
Thanks
Matt.


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## BigTom (6 Jun 2013)

matt said:


> Hi,
> Is this genuine pond aqua soil your talking about
> the one that comes in the blue and white packaging,and available from Amazon.
> Just want to check I will be getting the right stuff.
> ...


 

That's the stuff.


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## matt (6 Jun 2013)

Thanks for the quick response.


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## Andy Thurston (7 Jun 2013)

BigTom said:


> I only did a test run of a day or two, no idea how long it'll take to deplete. JI3 will put pH around 7.5 in my experience, and add an extra 100-200 TDS to whatever is already in your water. Obviously will vary depending on how much you use. If you're after something that won't effect your water much then the blue bag 'Original Aquasoil' on ebay is just loam and grit.





Alastair said:


> The genuine pond aqua soil contains all 3 loam peat and grit so I would opt for this to keep things how you want them. I have used this previously and am about to use it again. My ph was always around 6 to 6.5 in my low tech. Never had problems with tds either directly from the soil


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