# Olympus is Calling.



## Zeus.

Hi all

Since starting this 'Journal' as a complete Newbie, I have been given the great Honour of it becoming a Featured Journal. I have/will be working on trying to get as much detail down as possible by adding historical content and getting some better Pics, without removing the historical note of the journey. Was is missing is all the help I have received help from many UKAPS members and Moderators via PMs along the way which has made this tank possible. Plus the many hours of reading post/threads 

Thanks Guys  its your friendly help and content thats made it all possible and great fun along the way 

_________________________________________________________________________________

The Journey

*Me*

The last tank I owned was over 20 years ago 500 litre. But things have moved so so I can safely say my status is novice.

Why 'Olympus is Calling' nothing to do with the design really but I would like to think I will end up with 'Natural beauty' Olympus relates to my AKA for gaming 'Zeus' and then one off my E-mails 'zeus@mountolympus.....' yep but cheesy but it was done a long time ago 

Ten weeks ago I wasn't even thing about a tank. But from the comment of the wife of a fish tank would look good in the lounge and my son getting into aquascaping. The snow ball is rolling and gather momentum. The tank is ordered and some hardware and I fell like I've jumped into the very deep end of the pool and theres a strong current and I'm not a good swimmer.

So please feel free to criticise me and I would appropriate any input or thoughts you may have. Yes in gaming terms I'm the 'Noobie'

*Budjet -* don't really have one but Dont mind paying for quality more than happy to make/mod. Hate paying over the odds for BS


*The Tank *

The tank will be used as a room divider with short side against wall - just to make it more of a challenge

Being used as room divider so will be seeing it front back and side.
Size 60" x 24" x 24" 109 UK gallons (496 Litre)
Optiwhite front back and side.
Cabinet style - Scandinavian with hood - hood can be used open hood or closed depending on lights used

*Filter *-

Fluval FX6  output 2130LPH-  With course and medium STD sponges and 800grams of Biohome Ultimate
Eheim compact 3000+ for separate loop output 3000LPH
Maxspect twin Gyre XF230 and Gyre Advanced Controller planed for upgrade in sept 2018 on release of new model -output 16,000-18,000 LPH
*Filter Output*


- Twin Spraybars with the main upper from FX6 one having 4.0mm x23 holes and 3.5mm x4holes and the opposite end low in tank to help keep a Gyre effect of turnover

*Lights* -

T5 24w four.
Four kessil A160we tuna sun with controller. plus dimming via PLC and Kessil controller, kessils 20cm above water level.
Tank has different light intensity zones
*Moonlight Passover*

*Heaters* -

Hydor ETH External Thermal Heater x2
*CO2 -*

Ultimate Complete Aquarium CO2 System for plated tank up to 500L with twin 12V DC CO2 Solenoid Valves and Precision Needle Valve
Duel CO2 injection with twin *APS EF2 CO2 reactors and Pro Flora Inline difusors*
Latest UP High Precision pH Controller for Planted Tank - With pH Electrode - Used Via PLC to get Fast 1.0+pH drop in less than 1hr with the use of twin injection.
6.5Kg CO2 cylinder Last about 30 days
*Hanna pH Probe HI-98129*

*Water *Tap

*Substrate*

ADA Aquasiol
*Fertilizer *

EI salts 100% - Use Rotala butterfly for stock solution plus epsom salts for Mg
Liquid Carbon
*Macro,Micro Liquid Carbon  PLC Auto doser*

*PLC *(Programmable Logic Controller)

Lights Auto dosing CO2 temp etc -*How to use a PLC to control your fish tank.* Cheers Ian without your help a PLC might never of happen 
*Flora*


Eleocharis acicularis 'mini' - carpet
Lilaeopsis brasiliensis 'micro swords' - carpet
Helanthium tenellum 'Brown' - carpet
Monti Carlo - Little in carpet here and there
Alternanthera reineckii 'Mini' - removed
Anubias nana
Bucephalandra 'wavy green'
Cryptocoryne parva
Cryptocoryne balanase - removed
Cryptocoryne petchi
Cryptocoryne wendti- removed but a few come though
Cyperus helferi - removed - algae magnet
Pogostemon helferi
Fissidens fontanus
Hydrocotyle tripartita
Hygrophila pinnatifida
Hygrophila “Araguaia”
Microsorum pteropus 'narrow' - removed but little still in tank
Microsorum pteropus 'Trident'
Juncus repens - removed
Hydrocotyle verticillata
Lindernia rotundifolia
Rotala H'RA
Bolbitis Heuelotii
Pearl Weed
Ceratopteris thalictroides
Ricca Moss : love and hate this stuff - looks great but spreads in carpet PITA to get out/control
Blyxa Japonica
*Clean up crew*

Amanos x60+
RCS x200+++++
Theodoxus Fluviatilis - Freshwater breeding nerite x30 - no luck
Ramshorn Snails 
Pest snails 
Ottos x5
Tiger Ottos x2
SAE x3
Zeus

(thanks to the guys at AquaScaping World Forum esp ShadowMac who have help guided me in the right direction in the very early months )

----------------------------------------------------------------
Latest Vid of Olympus



Place for Pics - overview
1/7/18





29/1/18



21/5/17


Night



Daytime

Feb 2017 Just flooded




15/12/16 DSM start




8 Dec 2016 - hardscape


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## Zeus.

Pumping update 10/2/18

_[QUOTE="ShadowMac, Via AquaScapingWorld]The purpose of flow is to diffuse the CO2 and nutrients. It is_ _also to ensure detritus does not collect, break the leaf barrier so leaves can absorb nutrients/CO2, and eliminate dead spots. You would be surprised how much flow is needed to accomplish this._

_If you run your filters in series (provided that is doable) you solve the lack of biomedia with one filter, but do not add flow to the system. The flow rates do not add up, you just get the max flow of whatever those filters are rated at, which is around 500 gph...not enough. You could run an independent loop for CO2 with a strong pump through a cerges reactor to make up for the flow and create a reliable CO2 system. I prefer reactors on an independent loop because it is then not subject to the variations in flow from canister filters over time. Running the filters separately will move double the amount of water. Putting the intake across from the outlet isn't usually done because you then eliminate good laminar flow._

_http://aquascapingpodcast.com/episode12_

_Don't underestimate the value of good flow combined with a simple in tank glass diffuser. I think people often overcompensate for a lack of flow with over doing CO2.[/QUOTE]_

:notworthy:

Well even before I read your post I understood why we need the flow 'Mass diffusivity' OFC  Had a read around at dinner time at work
it all makes sense why you quote 10x flow for aquascaping, difusion in  water is of the order 10000 slower than air ie very slow, and this will be componded by a big tank with irregular flow due to hardscaping.
So me thinks might need a powerhead or two for this tank. Handy to have one ready at filling just in case flow not enough or dead spot.
I do like to understand why something is done and the physics/chemistry/biology/maths behind it rather than doing it.


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## Zeus.

Re-guarding using the Hybrid-Energy Approach, I have been advised that the Peat will cause a drop in the pH, but seeing I have very hard water I do not think this is a big issue as long as I choose my plants carefully ( easy to medium) but would appreciate some feedback from the low-energy aficionados please 

Thinking of going for a DSM start too - seems to make a lot of sense to get plants rooted and the cycling done before adding the water

Thinking 
*Irish Moss Peat 100L by Westland*
*20L WESTLAND AQUATIC COMPOST*
Plus some grit
Plus gravel 3mm to suit scape


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## kadoxu

Zeus. said:


> *Fertilizer - *yes dependant on substrate approach


You may want to rethink this... adding CO2, 3 or 4 kessil lights and no ferts... plants will die. Aquatic plants absorb a lot of nutrients from the leaves, hence the need for water fertilizers. 
Do some research on the EI regime here on the forum. And my advice would be to go for Dry Salts.


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## Zeus.

kadoxu said:


> You may want to rethink this... adding CO2, 3 or 4 kessil lights and no ferts... plants will die. Aquatic plants absorb a lot of nutrients from the leaves, hence the need for water fertilizers.
> Do some research on the EI regime here on the forum. And my advice would be to go for Dry Salts.



Thanks for the reply kadoxu

Do plan to use ferts but to what level yet to decide which depends on which substrate I go for, using the dry salts does seem to be the cheapest way too 

Zeus


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## Manisha

Very challenging setup you have planned with both front & back being viewed.

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/the-soil-substrate-or-dirted-planted-tank-a-how-to-guide.18943/ This is a helpful guide in the tutorials section on choosing a substrate.

I'm new to the hobby & run mostly low tech tanks & find you can run a successful balanced tank this way ☺

I haven't used DSM but it is very success for establishing root structures & attaching mosses to hardscape although I'm not sure if this will aid the cycling process to the extent of it being complete before flooding your tank & running your filters...


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## Zeus.

Manisha said:


> Very challenging setup you have planned with both front & back being viewed.
> 
> http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/the-soil-substrate-or-dirted-planted-tank-a-how-to-guide.18943/ This is a helpful guide in the tutorials section on choosing a substrate.
> 
> I'm new to the hobby & run mostly low tech tanks & find you can run a successful balanced tank this way ☺
> 
> .



already read the thread and pm Tim  before I started post - great thread.

Lots of choices but I like to understand why people are making the choices not just use product 'X' or do 'Y' hence I was questioning which substrate to go for and not just using ADA AS because everyone else does.

But been think about it all day and Why not just use non bio degradable Cat litter. Just had a good read around about cat litter then read *How to Mineralize Soil Substrates?* and it all makes sense why I should choose ADA AS

Shame I missed out on the 20% off for 24hrs at The Green Machine 



Manisha said:


> I haven't used DSM but it is very success for establishing root structures & attaching mosses to hardscape although I'm not sure if this will aid the cycling process to the extent of it being complete before flooding your tank & running your filters...



Read around quite a bit on DSM and even T. Barr gives it the thumbs up. The Cycling may not be complete but well on its way no mess about doing 2-3 50% water changes a week, Plus no algae blooms. leaf may have adapted to being air born but soon sort themselves out.


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## Manisha

If you do decide to go with TGM, they do have sales on from time to time ( I got my Amazonia from them with a 20% discount in March) & they'be had a few since... so you may get lucky?

That's cool, you've given yourself the best start with researching well & cetainly dry start has its advantages with reducing the risk of algae & DAILY water changes in a large tank  Though was under the impression you may still need a few big changes when you first flood as there still may be some leeching from the soil.

Looking forward to updates - sounds like an epic project


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## Zeus.

Manisha said:


> If you do decide to go with TGM, they do have sales on from time to time ( I got my Amazonia from them with a 20% discount in March) & they'be had a few since... so you may get lucky?
> 
> That's cool, you've given yourself the best start with researching well & cetainly dry start has its advantages with reducing the risk of algae & DAILY water changes in a large tank  Though was under the impression you may still need a few big changes when you first flood as there still may be some leeching from the soil.



Thanks for the TGM tip will hold off on order as will be needing quite a few bags. Reading lots and lots there is just so much to take in   The tank should be in in couple of weeks. Think my first scape will be a Xmas scene with polystyrene balls for snow and a few snowmen few rocks and wood flashing lights and devoid of water, I'm just not ready yet !



Manisha said:


> Looking forward to updates - sounds like an epic project



Thanks - hopefully not EPIC FAIL


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## Manisha

Hi Zeus, checking my emails & got a green machine notification "20% off everything"  If you are still wanting to get your ADA Amazonia? Just use voucher code *20FORME *


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## kadoxu

Manisha said:


> Hi Zeus, checking my emails & got a green machine notification "20% off everything"  If you are still wanting to get your ADA Amazonia? Just use voucher code *20FORME *


That's how I got mine... and a new aquarium... and a few more things!


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## Zeus.

Cheers m8  going down to TGM on 17 November might send email to see if I can use it on visit 

Working on 'Eco High Tank' theory ATM


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## kadoxu

This one is only available until the end of the month... bu they tend to have a 20% rather regularly, from what I've seen is the past few weeks.

I don't know if you'll be able to use it on the store... maybe you'll be lucky!


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## Zeus.

Sent email no replay yet, but need to see the rocks and wood and hand pick them so if they dont let me use the offer too bad , can always order the ADA AS over net


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## Manisha

I had a quick look (as hope to buy more san sui stone soon) & as Kadoxu said that code does seem to be only valid this month  Could you make a trip earlier? I got my scape & AS from them & as I'm in Northern Ireland couldn't pop into the shop but found phoning them the best way ordering. As you can explain your tank dimensions & what you would like? I found them really great with this aspect of setting up my tank ☺ I'd probably risk ordering everything at the 20% off price now then if any pieces are unsuitable exchange on the 17 November - Hardscape for a big tank adds up!


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## Zeus.

Manisha said:


> I'd probably risk ordering everything at the 20% off price now then if any pieces are unsuitable exchange on the 17 November - Hardscape for a big tank adds up!



Great idea "BATMAN'


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## Zeus.

Just phoned TGM and sorted VERY VERY HAPPY


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## Zeus.

re- *Controlling CO2 levels efficiency 

ordered Energenie LAN Power Management System £65 *


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## Zeus.

Cancelled order * Energenie LAN Power Management System*

read this
How to use a PLC to control your fish tank very tempting indeed  auto dosser as well , just bit of DIY


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## Zeus.

So been working with the PLC demo program– wow its F#####g Amazing, this baby will make the “Zeus Eco Magatech Climate Complete” . It’s only on the demo software ATM but working in simulation mode. With “STD mode”, “WC mode”, “Holiday mode” and my favourite “Zeus Mode” that’s “God mode”or “Crazy Dog Mode” OFC.

You can switch them over at the press of a button, and I think remotely- Very cool

So even if “Zeus mode” is a complete failure, press of one button and all changes on the fly back to STD Mode

*“STD mode”* pretty much the standard timings for lighting, CO2 control, filters pumps heaters etc

*“WC mode”* well turns everything off except the lights

*“Holiday mode”* cuts back on photoperiod, auto dosing etc

*“Zeus mode”* Filter (2000L/H) on 24/7, trickle CO2 on for photoperiod plus CO2 Booster period, Independent loop Ehiem 3000+ on whilst reaching idea CO2 levels, with CO2 booster on- then CO2 booster off, switching Ehiem 3000+ on for say 5mins every hour without CO2 booster. Skimmer/powerhead on night period only. Heaters off during CO2 booster period.


Addition features

Auto dosser OFC which reduces dose during Holiday period

“Moonlight pass over period” Yep I have four kessils can control the output levels with the PLC (many thanks the ‘ian_m’ on here – who did the program for me ) but at a hardware of cost of £100+ for the PLC extension module. But can use the PLC by itself without the PLC extension module and with the light level output being controlled by the kessil controller (I already have) then have the PLC have one light on at a time for extended viewing (say for 2hrs)- do like this idea

“Variable temp control” Completely over the top or is it! Basically read quite a few times about heaters getting stuck on. So 'if 'I go for and industrial temp sensor/monitoring via PLC (£150) the temp regulators on heaters are redundant, as the PLC will be controlling them with industrial reliability. So why not have the day temp slightly higher then night temp as well.

Thinking of getting pH probe to get the CO2 levels right, log times on PLC then when happy with settings etc Take pH probe off

Tank comes Tuesday


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## Zeus.

Weekend update

Tank has arrived  its big and weighs a ton. Delivery guy put it in my garage with neighbour. Me and a friend struggled to get the cabinet in the house think it weighs more than the tank. Need three to four people to get tank in house so thats happening next week when my daughters are home for weekend with their partners.










Plenty of room for canisters etc




Ordered my extra plumbing bits and pieces yesterday, for the inline diffusors/heaters being 16mm fittings and piping being 25mm,

rough sketch






Similar design for twin heater side too
plus custom spray bars for 25mm piping, then added a fill drain point to the independent loop for WC, so can add water easy from say *PEGLER PEG402 TMV 15MM *form wash room to tank with hose, might even add solenoid so it stops filling working form PLC, should work off sensor that auto-top up would use.

CO2 wise got it ready but not everything in stock  was after *UP High Precision pH Controller* for short term use to get the CO2 input levels right (plus help me monitor some of the 'crazy dog' ideas I plan to try) Plus 10% off first order so best to get everything at once. So plan to e-mail them and see what we can work out 

Kessil wise ordered a 'gooseneck' to see how integrate the Tuna sun A160 works with my braced/hooded (open hooded) tank, before I commit to getting another three 

PLC wise - happy with software works well on demo program, (Kudos due to 'ian_m' on here for the many pms bouncing back an forth) Got a contact in the industry and seeing what price he can pick the modules up at before I commit. 

Auto doser - checked out some decent peristaltic pumps (four rollers) but yet to decide on how many, but no rush on this as can always use manual route short term.

Auto top up - not really looked at this but should be straight forward PLC side plus need to see how much room in cabinet when done, plus see what water loss is like with hooded tank too.

Off to 'The Green Machine' on Thursday meet James and his team, pick there brains/tips/tricks etc get the hardscape materials AS etc

Lots to do and plan

Happy days 

Zeus


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## GHNelson

Huge project....keep us posted!
hoggie


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## Zeus.

weekend update

Been really busy with going down to TGM spent a small fortune. Got tank in with help. Clean Stone/wood, got on with hardscape.

its not finished, still playing with the rocks and wood as it doesnt feel right yet OFC, poor pics also due to reflection but got some black garden lining for the next ones I'll do at night, plus only one kessil ATM









need more AS ofc and lots of tweaks positioning wise, so just a little update of how its going, working with the wood rocks and trying to get them to work as a whole. But very happy with how its going as a whole 

will ask for critique once close and with better pics


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## Manisha

I'm not great with scaping but your last snap looks great! The only thing I notice, is the rock one from the left has a very strong point which might be a little distracting to the overall look -  otherwise looking great...roll on updates!!!


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## doylecolmdoyle

Looking good!


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## Joe Turner

Exciting stuff! Hardscape looks great so far, you going for minimalist or jungle style planting?

Joe


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## Zeus.

Joe Turner said:


> Exciting stuff! Hardscape looks great so far, you going for minimalist or jungle style planting?
> 
> Joe



well would say 'nature' but not aiming at a style 'per sa' just doing it as I like.

The list of plants 'Gaz' at TGM thought suitable was, got my markers ready 

Cyperus hefferi



Staurogyne repens



Alternathera reinideri 'mini'



Micranthemum 'monte carlo'


 But not as a carpet just between some of the rocks
Echrinodorus tennelleys (helenathsum)




Anablas bart nano 'petite' (on wood)



Cryptuconyne parra



Linderhia tohindifulia



Bucepandoreia wavy green (on wood)



Mosses ( dribyone/weeping moss)



Microseruim trident 





But Still think its worth getting both sides with rock that works together first place wood estimate light in areas as will be shadows too, can always adjust spacing, getting to know each rock personally :LOL:

------------

Made a Noob mistake forgot the support for the rocks etc

eg





so got myself some porous pavers. stripped the tank except the ADA PS and bridge the PS





got myself a power planer and have been rather busy.


wall panels fitted to base, QD OFC (y)




Kessil light hanger (temp OFC) reduced height and width so can position lights in center or move six inches to enable to see the difference having eight would make to both sides. soldered and compression fitting from cache





Finding it hard to get a decent photo of hardscape as there isnt a fixed viewing position so any I take look much poorer than the naked eye , tried taking video on iphone but then the 100Mb file refused to send via email to PC complete noob at taking videos then getting them right size to publish, would read how to do it but got other things to do :LOL:. Getting close to want I'm happy with but need to take it all out to adjust the porous pavers 'maybe'. Was at LFS with son ,which had a few pieces of sieryu stone which had my name on them too .

Still a way off before critique time


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## Zeus.

All critique welcome - Hit me HARD

except not level at edges of tank - can work on that when happy with rest
































Sorry about the poor quality of the pics, working on my camera skills, even listen to the one podcast I had to listen to -Photography :whistle:


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## Costa

Very nice Zeus, your aquascape looks great! Keep the pictures coming!
Costas


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## Zeus.

Thinking - Eleocharis acicularis 'mini' as the main carpeting plant


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## Greenfinger2

Hi Zeus, Great DW and Rock placement  Really love the way your scape flows


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## Zeus.

Wasnt happy

So Two Piles - got wife involved :love:






















Substrate not level yet OFC will be same level all way round, plus not enough substrate in smaller pile (Fire pit), need to add some retainer walls with J Finleys plastic sheet (already got)

Two end peices (shallow end of triangle)of DW are not fixed, so can be moved/tuned

Middle area a lot more interesting IMO - could add sand/gravel path in long run

Sorry about poor quality pics


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## Manisha

Very nice! Are you happy with it?


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## ian_m

Looks good, I am happy with any hardscape placement people do and when the plants are in will look completely different.

Couple of quick things...

I see you have bare copper pipes present in you light stands. These will quickly tarnish in presence of tank water splashes, as tank water is generally slightly acidic, especially if with CO2. Also might/will deposit copper salts into the water, not good for shrimp.

Make sure you can lift and or get access under the wood for (weekly) vacuuming. One of my hardscape a placements had a rock leaning on a piece of wood with Anubias growing it, looked like a branch growing out from under the rock. However all the tank detritus each week decided to collect under the exposed piece of wood and cleaning / vacuuming was hard. I had to move the rock, lift the wood each week disturbing the substrate and plants. I the end I used a smaller piece that wasn't under a rock and cleaning became much easier.


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## Zeus.

Manisha said:


> Very nice! Are you happy with it?



No- not yet  just trying different ideas, and giving wife a chance 



ian_m said:


> Looks good, I am happy with any hardscape placement people do and when the plants are in will look completely different.
> 
> Couple of quick things...
> 
> I see you have bare copper pipes present in you light stands. These will quickly tarnish in presence of tank water splashes, as tank water is generally slightly acidic, especially if with CO2. Also might/will deposit copper salts into the water, not good for shrimp.
> 
> Make sure you can lift and or get access under the wood for (weekly) vacuuming. One of my hardscape a placements had a rock leaning on a piece of wood with Anubias growing it, looked like a branch growing out from under the rock. However all the tank detritus each week decided to collect under the exposed piece of wood and cleaning / vacuuming was hard. I had to move the rock, lift the wood each week disturbing the substrate and plants. I the end I used a smaller piece that wasn't under a rock and cleaning became much easier.



Copper stand temporary - will be SS  yet to decide if 4 lights enough  

Good tip on wood


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## sanj

Kind of liking Shoreline.


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## ian_m

How are you proposing to getting decent flow all over the tank ? Location of spray bars ?


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## Zeus.

ian_m said:


> How are you proposing to getting decent flow all over the tank ? Location of spray bars ?






yes spray bars

the one you can see will be aiming down, and other 'yet to be done' will be on wall side going parallel with surface, so So both should work well together and give a good clockwise flow in the pic

edit - its the flow thats making me think about the hardscape setup ATM


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## ian_m

Zeus. said:


> the one you can see will be aiming down, and other 'yet to be done' will be on wall side going parallel with surface, so So both should work well together and give a good clockwise flow in the pic


Hmmm. Not seen many people successfully keep algae free and healthy plants with spray bars on the shorter sides of the tank, rather than longer sides, especially in bigger tanks. If spray bar is pointing down I would be very surprised your substrate stays in place (considering the filters you have) as if I angle my spray bar down, even the slightest bit (say accidentally after cleaning), the substrate starts being wafted away. I of course await your experience to be proved wrong.

Unless you are going for something like this monster...(only £150, a bargain considering the volume it shifts).
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2015/1/aafeature


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## Zeus.

ian_m said:


> Hmmm. Not seen many people successfully keep algae free and healthy plants with spray bars on the shorter sides of the tank, rather than longer sides, especially in bigger tanks. If spray bar is pointing down I would be very surprised your substrate stays in place (considering the filters you have) as if I angle my spray bar down, even the slightest bit (say accidentally after cleaning), the substrate starts being wafted away. I of course await your experience to be proved wrong.
> 
> Unless you are going for something like this monster...(only £150, a bargain considering the volume it shifts).
> http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2015/1/aafeature





Custom/DIY spray bar, angle adjustable, so can have as many small large holes as I like. Going DSM which should help. can always have double pipes on wall side, Noob so well out of depth  but will find out


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## Zeus.

OK happy just minor tweaks


















 Ok



End stones need moving in a bit, level off, bit more AS not much, so few days tinkering then DSM


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## Zeus.

Weekend update

I got the hardscape more or less final. Got it all DSM started all tank misting up

Order plants for main carpet
Lilaeopsis brasiliensis




Eleocharis acicularis 'mini'




30 cups 2-1 sword to grass ratio, should be here Thursday 

also planing

Echinodorus tenellus





for between some of the rocks

Did find some couple of small pieces of rock calling me to take them home too :LOL:

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lights aren't enough

Four kessil 160 tuna suns are creating to many shadows IMO well they are spotlights after all

So could get four more costly but doable, but makes sense to add the red back the kessils are missing.

So makes sense to get




iQuatics Aqualumi T5 Controller - 6 x 24w T5 £185

The 24W tubes would give me many lighting configurations as tank is 150cm x 60cm

Bulbs '6 x Tropical' all for less than the cost of one kessil

writing this has nearly talked me into it.


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## sgdiscus

Love your hardscape! I have used echinodorus tenellus before and once they start growing... they can get unruly and overtake the rest of the plants. I think echinodorus tenellus will fit will in a jungle scape.


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## Zeus.

sgdiscus said:


> Love your hardscape! I have used echinodorus tenellus before and once they start growing... they can get unruly and overtake the rest of the plants. I think echinodorus tenellus will fit will in a jungle scape.



Thanks  done a few minor tweaks here and there which improve it slightly IMO

The echinodorus tenellus comes in two types, the green which may of been the unruly one you had, but I have choosen isnt as bad as the green just need careful monitoring and snipping its runners, but I plan to plant it after the main carpet is quite well established, But thanks for the heads up - it all helps when your a Noob like me  will keep my eye on it dont want it taking over, it will be a one cup order


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## Zeus.

Plants came daughter picked them up but they got the ratio wrong 20 grass to 10 swords 

Got it all planted for where I am after the carpet











Planted it more dense at the bottom end as thats where I was planing to have the spray bar pointing down (right on last pic) plus ignored where the DW was taken out, as wont be going in till ready to flood. Used a sort of random plating option for what went where with a slight selective positioning of the swords in some places

Having never planet a tank with AS before I can only imagine what it must be like planting under water with AS, the DSM made it so easy, made a small divet in AS and dropped the plant in and gravity plus light misting few days and geotropism should take care off the rest.

Lights on CO2 on  what BBS would you folk advise


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## Zeus.

Four 24w T5 Philips de Luxe Pro 965




Four Kessil 160 tuna suns full power/spectrum




Both





Could add another two 24w T5 tubes but minor mod maybe later maybe growlux in line with kessils

Got a 2 meter limit on cables so got that to work out with the ballast. But should be able to have the kessils in the hood, just off the cover glass so no need for hanger, they will be slightly sticking out and minor cables returning but neat to eye so BIG wife will be pleased when done. But will be a b$$$$h to do.


----------



## Costa

Looking good Zeus!

(but get something for cable management)


----------



## Zeus.

Costa said:


> (but get something for cable management)




happy to watch it grow ATM


----------



## Zeus.

Kessils fitted to my hood 












Fitted two T5 tubes also two just on Glass ATM

Needs a few grommets plus the controller 3.5mm Aux cable is in series ATM but will be in parallel when finished, bit of cable tieing to do under Da Hood.

Maintenance will be a Pain OFC but Wife very happy with it.(y)

Lots of roots growing also, think the grass/swords are too but hard to tell, but none dieing so must be OK


----------



## Zeus.

Weekly update.

Swords/Grass growing nicely, root growth about 2cm plus deep on sides of tank in areas and lots of new shoots/runners popping up in AS. So lots going on under the AS 


 

Did have some mold spores growing around some grass/swords in the AS, so left tank lid open during day and at night for a few days, made easy by being at home, so able to keep a close eye on the AS NOT drying out. Mold gone around AS around plants, bit around DW and non planted areas, but not worried about that. Trying to get the Mold as clear as possible as away for a week on the 12 Jan so will have to leave it untouched for a week.



 

Lots of bits done plumbing heater setup Inline CO2 plumbing and spray bars done. Bench testing plumbing in garage for leaks


 




Fitting the T5 ballast was a pain as only 2m length on T5 cables and 1.5M tank plus had to allow for the lid opening all in a 60cm x 8cm window plus fitted the Kessil 160 transformers outside of cabinet, it was a little tight to say the least but more or less done



 

Flood date TBC in no rush as long as plants are growing, longer the better IMO 

*Plants for adding in phase two of DSM*

Echinodorus tenellus
*Hydrocotyle tripartita*

*Plants for flood stage*

thinking 
*Vallisneria nana or*
*Eleocharis sp.*
as I do like their thin leaves but not sure if they will grow long enough to sweep down tank, but could use one off them as a midground plant also

Rest yet TBC Crypts high on the list ATM


----------



## ian_m

Spray / wipe the mouldy areas with liquid carbon (diluted) and that will kill it.


----------



## Zeus.

update

The plants terrestrial battle for dominance during the DSM continues .It’s been 5 weeks since it started. I’ve Been away for a week and was having some mould issues which was being controlled by airing tank. So left the tank lids slightly open set the house at 14 degrees and lock the door. Got back to slight mould lots of growth esp on the roots. Mould has all cleared within 12hrs but AS does have a slight white covering in areas and also slight algae in others not concerned about either at this stage. Not been using H2O2. The swords are winning the battle for foliage, with the grass having much deeper roots on the sides of the tank. In my excitement/rush to get it all planted I didn’t cut/brake the initial plants up enough to small enough samples, typical noobie mistake I guess as the tubs said six to nine should off done much more, however less trauma to the plants as well, all of them have taken, with only minor bits drying out. In the long run it will make no difference I think.

Initially 


 
Today


 

Roots Initially


 
today


 

5 weeks on (today)

So very happy I didn't come home to the need to flood.

Plan to put DW back in this weekend and decide on where to add next plants for the next part of the DSM, being a newbie I feel this is by best option to see places where the extra plants will look must natural, then Take DW back out again

Plants thinking (but open to suggestions/advice)
Echinodorus tenellus




Hydrocotyle tripartita 




One tub of each should be plenty

Then flood in four to six weeks with more plants in high areas and some on non removable DW, plan to leave removable DW out till carpet better establish.


----------



## Zeus.

Plumbing all but ready to flood



 

1. water fill/drain on independent loop
2. Return from FX6 before heat exchange
3. Inlet for FX6.

Decided on better tubing for pressure side using *25mm PVC BRAIDED HOSE *which turned out a real pain to use and thicker than the fluval stuff, esp when it all has to fit on wall side with 80mm to work with.
Leak wise it could turn out to be a real nightmare with so many joints with hoses and clips

wall side view


 

Let say its another potential NIGHTMARE and leave it at that :unsure:

Found it hard to sleep last few nights thinking about plants
Order plants - some hard to get, or not in stock - plus got a few little extras :whistle: 

Cryptocoryne wendtii Compact 
Microsorum pteropus narrow 
Cryptocoryne balansae 
Anubias nana Bonsai 
Cryptocoryne retrospiralis 
Cryptocoryne wendtii "tropica"
Tropica Rotala 'bonsai' 
Bucephalandra mini needle leaf 
Bucephalandra spec. Brownie
Cryptocoryne Parva
Hygrophila pinnatifida
Cryptocoryne Petchii
 Echinodorus Tenellus 'brown' 

Think I'm going to to busy this weekend, sons coming home from uni too - he will be a great help too (y)


----------



## Tim Harrison

Nice project and build.


Zeus. said:


> Found it hard to sleep last few nights thinking about plants


So many plants...so little time and space


----------



## Zeus.

Been a long day, but got there in the end.



 


 

surface ripple


 

Raised the spray bar since doing pic, fitted skimmer, tested the independent loop high and low setting.

Son did a few tests (API Master)

Ammonia 0.25ppm
Nitrite 0.0ppm
Nitrate 80ppm
pH 7.5
TDS 476
KH 11 
GH 20 

Bit shocked at the hardness, will retest tomorrow. It is what it is.


----------



## Tim Harrison

Looking good


----------



## Shane Puthuparambil

Tank looks great! Proves that plenty of planning and research produces a beautiful scape!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tim

Looks great wet, been following your thread from the start, great attention to detail along the way and I have to say I admire your patience, set to be a great scape Zeus.


----------



## ian_m

Zeus. said:


> Son did a few tests (API Master)
> 
> Ammonia 0.25ppm
> Nitrite 0.0ppm
> Nitrate 80ppm
> pH 7.5
> TDS 476
> KH 11
> GH 20
> 
> Bit shocked at the hardness, will retest tomorrow. It is what it is.


Please put your hobby grade test kit in the bin or if you insist using it, ignore the results....


My theory based on your results...(maybe completely wrong of course).

Ammonia is actually very high (as your water is new) and test kit is miss reading (as expected), especially if you have used dechlorinator as this will cause most ammonia test kits to under read.

KH and GH are actually alkalinity measuring kits and very susceptible to interference by other salts/ions/dechlorinators. Therefore they are actually reading your high ammonia values, rather than KH & GH.

Nitrate seem awfully high especially with a new tank, what is your tap water nitrate levels from your water company ?

If you really really really really want to test and feel you must test something, then test kits like these will give reasonable reliable & repeatable results compared to most hobby grade kits.
http://uk.hach.com/test-kits/multi-parameter-kits/family?productCategoryId=25114174848
http://www.lamotte.com/en/aquarium-fish-farming/fresh-water-combination-kits/3633-04.html

Though to be honest you get a reliable repeatable result....then what.....what can you realistically do to "fix" or "cure" parameters you feel are wrong ? Water change is usually the only thing that can be done.


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

looks really good, nice work on setting up all the plumbing! Im sure it was headache but looks like water changes will be simple for you!


----------



## Zeus.

Thanks for all your kind words guys , much appreciated  



ian_m said:


> Please put your hobby grade test kit in the bin or if you insist using it, ignore the results....




Wasn't mine  it was the sons, mines in post , well I was in two minds not to bother, then last minute I ordered one 

Did a macro dose 50% EI this morning, had light on at 50%

had to wait to put CO2 on till 2pm due to other commitments, but setup the pH controler, had the independent line bubbling like mad, still took some time to get the pH up to 6.5, Drop checker didnt go critical just green, had quite a bit of pearling too.

Had the lights on 6Hours

Added some pics below of the various stages from Yesterday, from cleaning the filter, water setup for WC in wash room etc


----------



## Zeus.

Just did a few night shots last night.
















Added daughter's Val's that I got for her, there still in pots. Think I might keep one.  Wife really likes the middle Val too, so plan to leave it potted or try and get a small clay pot from garden center. Plus the *Vallisneria *do not tolerate liquid carbon very well, so with my plans to be dosing liquid CO2 for its anti algae properties Vals will be a poor choice long term. But they help fill in the tank short term. Well till Daughter takes them on Thursday.

Had a look this morning and all the swords/grass are standing up straight, plus cypts leaves picked up too.

Morning pH 7.15 via pH controler. Plan to aim for 6.2pH today and see if drop checker turns Yellow (too much [CO2]), good to know where the limits are IMO.

pH held very close to yesterdays limit of 6.5 for several hours after the CO2 was turned off, independent line was also turned off at shame time, Flow was still good.


----------



## Zeus.

Son managed to get some 'Cyperus helferi' yesterday from LFS good price too (out of stock elsewhere). looks great in tank might get some more

twilight end shot- one kessil on low(did another 50% WC last night)


----------



## ian_m

How is your flow and drop checker colour at the far end of the tank ?


----------



## Zeus.

Flow is good with the FX6 and better with the eheim compact3000+ , no AS movement after slight adjustment in spray bar agle of independant line. Drop checker is showing to high (its clear ATM) keep reducing the ph controler seting by 0.1 each day. Its at 6.4pH today so will see how it is tonight. But still plaing around with the Double CO2 inputs to get the balance right.

Might have a play with the independent spray bar and have it well down in water. Not glued the final ends together and pipework is holding so thats working great as can make micro/complete adjustments


----------



## ian_m

Forgot you had an FX6....


----------



## Zeus.

Pic off the flow input from spraybars


----------



## Zeus.

Fitted Twinstar
Was thinking about the possible algae issue that may arise and what else I could do to help reduce its visit.

Better Flow
So positioned the left spray bar


 

Twinstar bubbles dont get the chance to be not carried away in the current


----------



## Zeus.

Nitrites at 0.25ppm on Micky mouse API master test kit ( clear for ammonia and nitrates). Used it on small tank with Otto's and Amanos in and was all clear for Ammonia, nitrite and nitrates so using it with caution with reference to an establish tanks results.
So with a bit of luck should be safe for clean up crew soon.
Picked up 12 Amanos today at good price from LFS. So 18 ready on standby. Had laugh watching them squirrel off the small algae pellets I have. In the same light they will move the AS no problem !


----------



## Zeus.

Been doing 200l WC every week day night last week. Son tested the kH of the water before he went back to Uni and it had gone down to 8kH which was what I had calculated from the local water supplies data sheets, then allowing for the ADA AS and the seiryu stone having a net neutral effect together. Think the initial high kH was due the the longish DSM or high because it was done straight after flooding and needed as few WCs to reach equilibrium.
Could use some bio solution to help kickstart the filtration, but seeing as it has been working for several months in garage with a bioload was hoping that would be enough, obviously not.
Did put a few
Gel Filter Starter Balls into the filter before flooding tank. 

 But only a small handful. Got them with the Biohome Ultimate free. Had half a bag left. So put the rest into the filter this morning. Did it the easy way putting them in via the filter intake in tank, sucked them up nice and easy.

Just needs time and should be good. Just like to get the clean up crew in. The other fish can wait.

The pH for good [CO2] via pH controller at 6.8pH, took a few days hit and miss to find the sweet spot. pH controller made it nice and easy. Drop checker stays nice and green in photo period, moring pH in the range of 7.16-7.2pH and drop checker is blueish.

Some melting of leaves, others picking up. Two off the C. helferi nice and green, however one going yellowish, it was the poorer specimen, will see how it goes. Repositioned some of the J. ferns, Anubias and Bucephelandra which is why I didnt go down the glueing route in the first place. Also been gettting a few Anubias from daughters old small tank and squeezing them in here and there between Rocks/DW some arent the best specimens but should pick up. Nice thing about rock wood placement is easy to change without disturbing AS.

H. pinnatifida turning a little brown/reddish too on top leaves showing little pearling at times.

Pearling here and there (obviously no pearling is not a sign of unhealthly plants, but nice to see) mainly on plants higher up in tank.

Turned kessils up to 60% intensity but kept main photo period at 6hrs.

Very happy with flow in tank with the spray bar positioned. when the twinstar starts the micro bubbles are jetted off to the other side of tank reaching the independent intake, like a snow storm - must do a vid :whistle:

Tank is a bit smelly which started when a fitted the twinstar, so I'm putting it down to that. Could be the tank cycling also OFC and the fitting of the twinstar was just coincidental as purely observational and not evidence based.


----------



## Daveslaney

Looking good.
Out of intrest do you use the fx6 to drain water out the tank for water changes?.


----------



## Zeus.

Daveslaney said:


> Looking good.
> Out of intrest do you use the fx6 to drain water out the tank for water changes?.



Thanks 

Could do, but use point one on pic, its an independent line - no filter




Then the chlorinated water gets primed before reaching filter, filter off during WC.
Do plan to use the FX6 drain/fill point to clean the detritus out with the free vac and filter I got with FX6, prior to WC. But after a week after flooding and good flow not much to clean to be honest, which a light disturbance of plants gets it into the flow and filter takes it out.


----------



## Daveslaney

Great system.
Thinking of uping the filtration on mine,But am abit torn between a sump using a overflow box or a fx6 at the min lol.


----------



## Zeus.

Daveslaney said:


> Great system.
> Thinking of uping the filtration on mine,But am abit torn between a sump using a overflow box or a fx6 at the min lol.



Well I am well happy with the FX6 so far, managed to get about 4Kg of biohome ultimate in it, the 25mm piping is a bit of a pain getting fittings for CO2 wise or external heaters, great flow. Great price for what you get IMO.


----------



## Zeus.

Nitrites all clear this morning so stuck one Otto in and went to work. Still alive tonight so stuck other Otto in and 16 Amanos.
There busy ATM pick some more Otto's up asap

Sent from Mountolympus via neural interface


----------



## Zeus.

Did first big trim of carpet today
Forgot to do pre pics  the carpet was getting long
used




Took about 4hrs - well it was first time trimming a carpet - well planted tank. Plan to get some more scissors too

Those Amanos dont half like nipping your arm  just dropped an big algae pellet in solved the minor issue 





didnt take enough off at first as well


 




Can see the Pava now as well, was being drowned by the micro swords.

Might change the Java ferns for some trident.

Got about 50 Amanos in tank and 12 ottos - picked some more ottos up today in quarantine ATM was at a good price

No real issues ATM Light on 6hrs kessils at 60% and four T5s, extended viwing about 2hrs with one kessil on at 5%. 
Ei dosing at 50 to 75% and two 65% WC a week

Been getting on with PLC too


----------



## Daveslaney

Looks great,Coming along nicely.


----------



## Zeus.

Been some time since last post. Took out all the Java fern and added Trident, moved some Anubis about a bit, took out one(trimmed to base off stem) Cyperus helferi as it wasnt looking right. All Crypts doing well. Three amanos with eggs


End view



 

Carpet not doing well  since I trimmed it



 


 


 

So here's my newbie thoughts long DSM 12Hr light so plenty of stored energy in plants. Flooded tank grew from stored energy, even with kessils on 60% 6hrs and T5 about 2 hours, trimmed carpet so swords melted back to then regrew a bit whilst the micro grass regrew some, then they ran out of energy. I was keeping the tank lighting low to avoid algae blooms etc. Plus wanted to get my EI & LCO2 auto dosser done also Plus PLC before I went away for two weeks. PLC fitted along with auto dosser week before Hols( will post details when the final touches done) turn lights down a bit more for Hols.

Got back from Hols and carpet still not recovering and all the crypts leaves are reaching for the top off tank too (some minor holes in one or two leaves on crypts)

Plus I was being patient seeing what happens without changing setting all the time. I have a 50cm deep carpet so need more light penitration.

provisional newbie diagnosis -Not enough light 

So from last night I have the kessils on full for 6hours along with six T5 24w for six hours too. Might need more hrs will give it a few weeks

Also thinking of doing a LED COB array Dimable via PLC 0-10Volt analog output to LED driver with 6500K, red,(maybe blue) chips. then I can control the amount off light getting to different parts of tank too


----------



## Zeus.

Since posting rearranged my T5 tubes so they are basically arranged around the carpet and not uniform around the tank and the micro grass has started to pearl here and there , hasn't done that before- nothing amazing but pearling all the same


----------



## xim

I agree on increasing the light because it looks like the carpet is on decline compared to the after-trim picture from 4th March. I would carefully monitor the tank because you may be increasing it too much (from the way you describe it). Green algae on rocks indicates that if the light is too low, it's not by much . But I never use Kessil's light, so have no idea, can't gauge them, by the way.


----------



## Zeus.

Did a clean up today, the 'Boulder Boys' (Amanos) have been busy since flooding moving the AS, so time to remove the AS




 

Also did the maths for the light and was falling well short 

medium plants 20-40 lumens 500L so 10,000 to 20,000 lumen

my T5 6x24W at 40Ln per watt yielded 5760Lumen plus kessils !

So big newbie mistake not enough light OFC, But I have these COB LEDS wrong spectrum but......





so I fitted one - hum..... then another and another 

so the area I cleaned the AS out off



 

so you can see the swords - pearling 

and end view



 

so one side pearling more than other a bit :whistle:

Going to be be keeping a very close eye on it OFC just doing one side for a few days with limited hours with the COB LEDs and see (y)


----------



## Shane Puthuparambil

Tank is looking good. As it matures, it will be a sight to behold!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Zeus.

Lighting update/correction

Was checking my T5 tubes 
*Philips TL5 HO 90 De Luxe 24W 965 (MASTER) | 55cm - Daylight *
and they are 74Lm per watt so 10,500Lm Plus as have reflectors on too


----------



## Nigel95

I like the hardscape, good job


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## LocustDemon

Great read and a great build! Really like the scape, bet it looks great as a room divider. 
Matt. 

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## Zeus.

Thanks guys for your kind words 



LocustDemon said:


> bet it looks great as a room divider



Yes it does, I'm still a long way off being happy with it.




Not the best picture OFC and just spent a few hours with maintenance/WC and rewiring the COB LEDs I fitted as I got told off by ian_m  for having the LED drivers hanging off my 'fanny' light rail  But he was spot on  I just got carried away when I put one LED on and pearling started.

Carpet does seem to be picking up no end, I have fitted 8 COB LEDs without the 30 degree beam fitted so it gives pretty uniform light all over tank. When all the lights are on everything pearls even Bucephalandra.

The roots on the side off the tank in the AS get loads of bubbles O2 I think and the roots have started to turn white again in places. Some off the carpet micro grass was coming up in little clumps before (think roots was rotting) I left them floating around the tank this week, they had new white roots by the end off the week with the new light regime.

Still lots to do OFC and wifes getting a bit sick of my light hanger


----------



## LocustDemon

Zeus. said:


> Thanks guys for your kind words
> 
> 
> 
> Yes it does, I'm still a long way off being happy with it.
> View attachment 105399
> 
> Not the best picture OFC and just spent a few hours with maintenance/WC and rewiring the COB LEDs I fitted as I got told off by ian_m  for having the LED drivers hanging off my 'fanny' light rail  But he was spot on  I just got carried away when I put one LED on and pearling started.
> 
> Carpet does seem to be picking up no end, I have fitted 8 COB LEDs without the 30 degree beam fitted so it gives pretty uniform light all over tank. When all the lights are on everything pearls even Bucephalandra.
> 
> The roots on the side off the tank in the AS get loads of bubbles O2 I think and the roots have started to turn white again in places. Some off the carpet micro grass was coming up in little clumps before (think roots was rotting) I left them floating around the tank this week, they had new white roots by the end off the week with the new light regime.
> 
> Still lots to do OFC and wifes getting a bit sick of my light hanger


Where in Yorkshire are you? If you sketch up what you want your hanger to look like with measurements ect I'll see what I can do. 
I've moved to Cornwall now but me and my brother are welder/fabricator, he still lives in Sheffield and I'm sure if you wanted we could sort something out for you if you wanted unless you already have something in mind. 
Cheers, 
Matt. 

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


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## Zeus.

LocustDemon said:


> Where in Yorkshire are you? If you sketch up what you want your hanger to look like with measurements ect I'll see what I can do.



East Yorkshire, and Sheffield not that far, it just I havent decided or worked out what I need yet, plus waiting to fine a decent supply of 6500K COB LEDs really then take it from there. But many thanks for the offer I will pm you when I know what I want 
------------------------------

Tided up the make shift hanger a bit ( Mobile COB LED units )








Sorry about poor pic  but you get the improved hanger. wife is happier. C. Heferi very long has algae OFC too but not too bad LCO2 dose on a slow increase.

Had some crypts getting holes and curling, to be expected with the light they been getting, But carpet is coming back.  Cut some crypts right back to AS, did one last week and its recovering very well and better colour too ATM


----------



## Zeus.

Tank maintenance done- takes some time!
Daylight shots, will try for Night shots tonight. Kessils and T5 on.










The independent return in its less obtrusive place, flow not quite as good but same turnover. Only have it on now when boosting [CO2] via pH controler, once pH reached five minutes later the independent line goes off and the trickle CO2 to FX6 stays on, flow still good with FX6 is it enough we will see, independant line kicks back in when pH drops OFC. Tanks snow storm goes when Booster CO2 is off, well thats until the COB LEDs come on then its a pearling snowstorm. Funny in a way you see posts about tanks not pearling, then when you have it you wish you hadn't in a way . Cut the COB LEDs time down a bit too.


----------



## Zeus.

Snowstorm- Both CO2 inputs on and independent line on - COB LEDs and T5 on











Pearling shots - Filter had been off about 2mins
COB LED mobile on and T5s
pH drop 0.9 Booster CO2 input off independent line off










Carpet recovery in 14 days

was when I had just fitted one extra COB LED unit




14 days later - have just trimmed the crypt on left also - more localised pearling on first pic as had the LED beam 30 degrees fitted at the time


----------



## Zeus.

DSM started 15/12/16
Flooded tank  10/2/17
The trident at the Jungle side has only been in a few weeks but lots off new growth - look close and you can see the Garden Wire ties holding it on

Did some Night shots last night but they wasnt very good on phone or on Sony 5Mb cybershot, But got sons Cannon ESO 600D SLI to play with tonight, you will be able to see the BBS on the C.Helferi  Only need to work out how to use the camera probably just wing it 








Wasnt too bad with the SLI for first try, nearly had as many buttons as my PLC. Wasn't quite dark outside but not too bad after a little photo edit


----------



## Daveslaney

Looks great.


----------



## Zeus.

Three weeks on since boosting the light the carpet is looking so much better, getting holes in some crypts leaves (will cut off near AS) and the BBA on the C. Helferi seems to be under control since I turned the kessils off when the COB Leds was on decreased COB on to 3hrs last week too was 4hrs, plus slowing increasing LCO2 dose too. Glass algae doing well too  thats 5 days worth in pic below

Kessils and T5 on




I am hoping that the Kessils and T5s when both on for 6-8hrs together will be enough to keep carpet slowly growing. Some areas of carpet still need an extra boost IMO to get all the AS carpeted. So removed 5 off the COB leds and left three on with the 30 degree focused beam on those areas

Kessils, T5 and three Focused COB LEDs


----------



## Zeus.

*Moonlight Passover Pics*












Hard to do it real justice with my camera skills, but you get the general Idea.


----------



## Zeus.

Tank Looks great from a distance But Holes and Curling off leaves on crypts increasing, Trident still getting going OFC but lots of new growth, but Carpet doing great. Up the pH, DC goes faint yellow. Decreased the light some more then thought nutrient deficiency- but I'm using a full EI dose or am I ? So did some reading and the symptoms do fit a Potassium/ magnesium deficiency. So used the calculator at Rotala Butterfly and did some number crunching with the product I am using EI Starter Kit from *Aquarium Plant Food UK* which I purchased followed the writing on the package and use the full dose. Ran the figures for the number of tsp I was using as per crib sheet and found it was in the EI range, But the nutrients where at the lower end off the optimal range and had plenty of headroom. So made up a fresh batch increasing the  Potassium Nitrate and  Magnesium Sulphate dose, flushed out the dosing line of doser and started new regime this morning.

Also tuned he independant spray bar a bit more. As since flooding it a couple off weeks ago a had it low in tank, which gave very poor aesthetics OFC so move to up much better


 to 

 much better to the eye.

Obviously Flow has decrease, So increased the hole size a bit of a few holes played around with different angles of entry and not impressed so cut a couple more pieces of the 20mm tubing I have just drilled smaller holes all the same 4mm and fitted them, lucky for me the peices hold great without gluing with the spray bars, nice tight fit yet can fine adjust or remove, using a copper pipe cutter to cut the pipe raises the edge slightly where it spreads the plastic and so tight fit, Not water proof joint OFC but its in water . Flow is better not massive but better, not as good as when low in water, but fit that pre WC for few hours.

Nobody said it was going to be easy


----------



## Zeus.

Little Videos to try and show the flow in Tank with aid of Twinstar.

First video is with the Fluval FX6 only on.





Part two is with the Fluval FX6 and Eheim 3000+ on


----------



## Tim Harrison

Looking good, and that's some flow you've got going on.


----------



## Zeus.

Tim Harrison said:


> Looking good, and that's some flow you've got going on.



Thanks Tim  to kind. Regarding the flow, after all the reading I did being a Noob just wanted to make sure I had enough, as most folks issues seemed to around insufficient flow. The Fluval flow is 3500l/h which on its own is insufficient by the x10 rule. Think whats paid off is using a spray bar with small holes 23 of them 4-5mm each, so creates a good jet which pushes the water around with a hit on actual water being filtered, but the back pressure in the filter should help the CO2 dissolve better. Hardscaping the tank with flow in mind helped too. Obviously when the plants fill in the flow will be reduced.


----------



## Zeus.

Been playing around with Reactors ie APS filter boosters with Bio balls in aid to get tank bubble free. Was hoping to have them post FX6 filter and still have good flow.





Tested them on the independent line first, comparing the up Inline atomisers with the JBL inline ones.


Some vids of the method/testing I have done so far

Twin up atomisers with twin reactors fitted on eheim 3000+



Twin up atomisers with twin reactors fitted on eheim 3000+ results


Setup of further testing JBL and UP atomisers


Hard to see the fine bobbles of the up atomisers in the last Vid, the lager bubbles was because a WC had just been done

So change the outlet over from the Eheim3000+ to the Fluval FX6 and fitted a bypass so the reactors got less flow through them, or could adjust to flow to find the seat spot between Bubbles in tank and noise from reactors

JBL and UP Atomizers with reactors fitted Post Fluval FX6 with Bypass



So with reduced Flow a clear tank was achieved with either of the atomisers 

Got it all fitted except one 25mm Ball Value as company sent the wrong one, but can retro fit that np. But with it missing makes draining tank take longer




Settled on the JBL inline amotismers as they do drop the pH faster and less chance of bubbles getting pushed down. But still some testing to do OFC


----------



## Daveslaney

Great job.
Thats a great set up you have there.


----------



## Zeus.

Daveslaney said:


> Great job.
> Thats a great set up you have there.



Thanks m8  still very much work in progress, but that's expected since still learning the craft. After all the filter boosters are all yours really as you put me on to them


----------



## Zeus.

Had a little test to see if all the CO2 going though one atomiser and reactor would work so joined the solenoids outputs together with a 6mm quick fitting. Reduced the flow through the bypass so more water going though the reactors too but still keeping them quiet



 

so basically the needle valve on Very high BBS 'I' and other needle valve on high BBS 'FX'. Worked a treat



 

So got pH drop in 62 minutes and the pH controller had to boost the CO2 input twice. pH drop faster than yesterday also, put this down to the better flow through the reactors. But I have found since having the auto adjusting CO2 on time it does vary day to day as the pH changes with the rocks and AS and the intail pH of the day can vary quiet a bit on WC day compared to day before WC, I assume this will be the same in all tanks esp with hardscape and AS

If it works well which it seems to be doing ATM I can use the second APS Filter Booster for a few Bags of Purigen and have crystal clear water all the time


----------



## Zeus.

Just a little update on the Twin CO2 reactors, still working on the balance of flow and input CO2 rates. But aiming for a high CO2 input rate and good surface agitation as per Dennis Chongs Videos on CO2.



 

Nailed the High CO2 injection rate 35 Mins to get the pH drop and not a gasping fish in sight. Starting pH 7.29 (after WC) Target pH 6.66. I had read about letting the fish acclimitase to the changing [CO2] as it may shock the fish, but my understanding of physiological changes in the blood in humans with higher [CO2] and respiration rates if the [CO2] change took 2hrs or 20mins as long as the critical blood [CO2] isnt exceeded the time it takes is irrelevant as long as its in the similar order of magnitude. Fish are are ancestors so i assumed they will be using a similar if more basic control of respiration. So little leap of faith.


----------



## Rugbyladv6

One of the admin pointed me to your thread, and I read with much interest!

I am just in process to convert my reef tank of 1000litres to all planted.

Given me some great ideas. Good job on yours!


----------



## Zeus.

Rugbyladv6 said:


> Good job on yours



Thanks  to kind.


----------



## amritc1

Excellent Journal and a great read.
Reading through this wants me to rip out my plumbing and start again. 
Great job and thanks for the advice.


----------



## Zeus.

amritc1 said:


> Excellent Journal and a great read.
> Reading through this wants me to rip out my plumbing and start again.
> Great job and thanks for the advice.



Thanks  Glad you found it helpful, makes keeping it updated more worth while


----------



## Costa

Zeus, been following your journal and finding it very interesting. Your persistence and hard work has clearly paid off. 

I have a 750L tank (sump volume included) and to say that I've been struggling with plants would be an understatement. 

Granted I don't use CO2, so it's very interesting to read all the work you've done in your 500L. 

Few questions:

1. You opted for an atomizer vs reactor. Why?

2. How big is your CO2 tank and how frequently do you refill?

3. What's your photoperiod and CO2 run time/day?

Thank you and please keep the updates coming.


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

Nice work, the videos where interesting!


----------



## Zeus.

Costa said:


> 1. You opted for an atomizer vs reactor. Why?



intank are ugly so went for up inline atomisers, then when I got sick of soda fiiled tank did the reactors, no bubbles and faster pH drop- win win



Costa said:


> How big is your CO2 tank and how frequently do you refill?



6Kg on the fourth or firth refill in one year- but I am going for the MAX [CO2] to help combat algea and pin holes BBA etc. If I was aiming for lime green on drop checker the pH drop is really quick and lower BPS, so with your tank a hybrid approach my  benefit your tank IMO and a lime green Drop checker [CO2] may be enough so you would use much less CO2



Costa said:


> What's your photoperiod and CO2 run time/day?



Short answer Full 1.0 pH drop for lights on with CO2 going off 1hr before end of lights on. Long answer the PLC and pH controller adjust the CO2 on time based on how long it took the day before, default preCO2 on time 60mins pre lights, the high CO2 injection rate drops the pH fast turns the drop checker lime green in less than 30mins.
Photo period 6hrs


----------



## Costa

Thank you Zeus for the comprehensive reply. 

Just curious, why do you shoot for a pH 1.0 drop? Isn't that consider a rather big decrease? Is this sustainable in the long term?


----------



## Zeus.

Costa said:


> Thank you Zeus for the comprehensive reply.
> 
> Just curious, why do you shoot for a pH 1.0 drop? Isn't that consider a rather big decrease? Is this sustainable in the long term?



Well I shoot for as High as possible, a little below the point where fish start to gasp, 

The reason are bad/difficult tank design, poor plant choices so carpet 50cm deep needs light But C helferi right at the surface needs not too much. S0 the Helferi gets BBA if too much light or carpet fails to flourish if not enough light. Ferts on full EI plus.
So the help the carpet grow with the least amount of light possible I need the MAX amount of [CO2] and to help control the BBA on tips of Helferi which gets TONS of light i need the MAX amount of [CO2]

So kill two birds with one stone, the high [CO2] is only recent I have to admit, after seeing the carpet struggle after last trim I didnt want to increase the light duration or intensity, SO maxed out the [CO2] and with an increase of PO4 dose too the carpet is pearling slightly after 3hrs of light on a lower light setting than I have used before. 

CO2 is free after all - read that in a thread by very smart person, reason you have to think its free is otherwise you fail to unlock CO2 full potential - I have to agree


----------



## Zeus.

Little Vid of my CO2 BPS



Had some pH controller issues at weekend, fish gasping  , thought a probe went down but after multiple calibration with Buffers probe still not right,  put spare on and still no good so thought controler may be FCUKed. But buffer was old and had no spare buffer salts. So got a pH pen and buffer salts next day prime plus more buffer solution for later checking. Sorted it out when the buffer salts arrived had no distilled water but a good sample of RO water. Old probe calibrated good with repeated checks with buffers and all is good. Also managed to find the sweat spot of BPS where no extra CO2 boost needed throughout the photo period, Slow steady drop of 0.1 ph throughout the photoperiod yesterday, little drop at last hour OFC, so decreased the working CO2 PSI on regulator a touch.

*Theodoxus Fluviatilis **-*Theos that I added are doing great, shells all intact and doubled in size easy



If you look close on them, you can see how the snails shell pattern has changed with more lager white spots/columns with the lower pH since being in tank, got some more from frothhelmet just arrived today so should have them in at weekend.


----------



## Costa

Very useful, thanks for the video Zeus


----------



## Zeus.

The fight against the algae seemed to be failing esp on the high plants like the C Helferi. I checked the Ferts the other week and auto dosing volumes was correct but I didnt check the LCO2 volume Big mistake it was getting nothing as the pipe was squashed/nipped in the tight space at end of tank




pic is an old one but shows how tight I am for space, think its been getting no LCO2 for some time. Probably from when I took all the pipes off for cleaning So Bad/Good news day. Plan to update the ferts/LCO2 piping for some more solid piping so it doesn't happen again


----------



## Enano_1

Hello Zeus. Im trying to know about how can I put the external atomizer ( Jbl proflora direct ). 

I doubt into the outter hose to aquarium or the inner direction hose to filter.

Regards from Toledo


----------



## Zeus.

I used the same one




Have a 16mm on one and 22mm on the other, just winged it with fittings, but the APS EF comes with 12mm and 16mm fittings. But it does reduce down to 12mm. Which one to use depends on which size hose your filter uses


----------



## EmannAquarium

very interesting read...can someone provide a link for the Dennis Chongs Videos on CO2 mentioned above please.

tks,


----------



## Zeus.

EmannAquarium said:


> very interesting read...can someone provide a link for the Dennis Chongs Videos on CO2 mentioned above please.
> 
> tks,



My Bad it was Denis Wong


----------



## EmannAquarium

tks..found his channel on the tube...


----------



## Enano_1

Zeus. said:


> I used the same one
> View attachment 111336
> 
> Have a 16mm on one and 22mm on the other, just winged it with fittings, but the APS EF comes with 12mm and 16mm fittings. But it does reduce down to 12mm. Which one to use depends on which size hose your filter uses



Hey Zeus, Thanks for your answer but I think that I dont express the think that want to say.

I use the same prefilter but other brand Sunsun 602 ( 12/16mm ) and 603 ( 16/22 m
 ).

My atomizer has the 12/16mm hose, and that is not a problem because it connected to Eheim professionel 4 + 250 t .

But my question is...

Where put the Jbl atomizer??

1°- Inner lily pipe - hose to prefilter 602 - Jbl atomizer - hose - Prefilter 602 - hose - Eheim filter - hose to aquarium - outer lily pipe 

2°- Inner lily pipe - hose to prefilter 602 - hose - Prefilter 602 - hose - Eheim filter - hose to aquarium - Jbl atomizer - hose to aquarium - outer lily pipe 

I wish that you understand that I want to say and learn 

Thanks!!!


----------



## Zeus.

Sansun 602





which is a copy or the same as an APS EF

Thats a lot a filtration IMO which is going to reduce flow in your tank, which could lead to CO2 fluctuations and algae issues.

what Eheim filter do you have and whats the size of your tank ? You dont need a lot of filtration media in a well planted tank as the plants and substrate do most of work. *FLOW is KING* and should come first
general rule of tank volume to X10 flow per hour for High tech tank with CO2 injection.

Option 

3°- Inner lily pipe - hose to prefilter 602  - hose - Eheim filter - hose to aquarium - Jbl atomizer - hose to aquarium  Prefilter 602 (CO2 reactor) - hose to aquarium - outer lily pipe 


any would work in theory/practice, but if the Jbl atomizer is after a filter it will receive cleaner water so less maintenance required. Although I did not use the media that came with APS EF for CO2 reactor, you just need some course media to slow the bubbles down a bit, water feed in at top for reactor


----------



## Enano_1

Hello again Zeus, and Thanks for taking your time to answer me.

My filter is an Eheim Professionel 4 + 250t. 

I understand that you say but, for the third option that you offer, the trick is put the prefilter ( in my case Sunsun 602 ) after de filter like a Co2 Reactor.

Thank you very much Zeus


----------



## Zeus.

Has been some time since I updated my Journal so did a few quick Pics 











Sorry quality of pics not the best, son fault as he has his DSLR at Uni


----------



## Tim Harrison

That is looking fantastic Zeus


----------



## Zeus.

Tim Harrison said:


> That is looking fantastic Zeus


Thanks Tim and too kind.

Made quite a few changes, which I will update in detail soon as soon as I have time, bit have different light intensity zones to suit the depth of the plant and the plants/carpets needs. Plus removed the C Helferi as it's aglea magnet properties was making it difficult to get a decent specimen as trimming at base of stem kept removing the main mass of the leaves. P Helferi added to DW well that was not easy and not very successful a few have attached but not doing great ATM

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke

@George Farmer did a video recently @Zeus. where apart from some serious Aquascaping bromance action there was a tank with a void underneath for water to travel end to end like a bit of a plenum about 10mins in and I immediately thought about your tank. It's looking superb as well mate.


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke

Would have got the water end to end without extra pipework.


----------



## Zeus.

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Would have got the water end to end without extra pipework.



Great idea all the flow is one way, dont think it would of been worth it on my tank as its not long enough .

The pipe on end off the tank is invisible to me , only put it back on because with the surface mounted spraybar was causing the Frogbit to get pushed down into the water. Plus it does give a better flow than the surface one. Just quicky pics on mobile two days before WC didnt adjust the light levels or even get the floaters out


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke

Quite a good way of hiding equipment on a tank like yours where it is visible on three sides. Not exactly sure how its going to work yet, I'll have to check in with George and see what the exact plan is. I'm assuming something pulling water up from underneath and sending it full length of the tank. Not sure if there's something on the opposing end pushing water back through the plenum. Will be interesting to see.


----------



## Zeus.

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Quite a good way of hiding equipment on a tank like yours where it is visible on three sides. Not exactly sure how its going to work yet, I'll have to check in with George and see what the exact plan is. I'm assuming something pulling water up from underneath and sending it full length of the tank. Not sure if there's something on the opposing end pushing water back through the plenum. Will be interesting to see.


They had fitted Abyzz water pump under the glass bottom to get the flow

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke

Zeus. said:


> They had fitted Abyzz water pump under the glass bottom to get the flow
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


Have you seen it running mate? I would like to see that.

Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


----------



## Zeus.

Nope, but you don't Scape and plant a big tank with a new under substrate pump without testing it first.
Can't see it not working. Nice way to get all the detritus going to the filter too.
Going of the video and the pumping/fittings the canister filter won't contribute to the tank turnover either.
Think it will work well myself

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


----------



## Zeus.

End view after WC with the high spay bar for the independent line fitted




Need to get sons camera off him  mobile phone not best at pics


----------



## Tim Harrison

Looks great, I think you've done really well scaping it so it looks good from 3 sides, not an easy thing to achieve effectively.


----------



## Zeus.

Tim Harrison said:


> Looks great, I think you've done really well scaping it so it looks good from 3 sides, not an easy thing to achieve effectively.


Thanks Tim
I did great some great advice of many folks esp at aquascaping world forum when I was hard scaping the tank. Glad I listened and took my time

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


----------



## zgmarkozg

loking great!


----------



## Zeus.

Little update.

Carpet has been struggling so I thought a bit more light intensity and started to look a little better, yep you got it so I up it some more too soon and too fast not waiting for 4-6 weeks and before I new where I was I was at 100% intensity  with my extra COB lighting also 




wasn't keeping a close eye on the pH /[CO2] and then I start seeing the damage. GSA on Anubis and Trident melting in places. Check the pH and yes it was droping 0.2pH from target pH when light on high. 
So had to trim lots of the trident off OFC. 
Also amano count has been slowly dropping OFC and when I put algea pellet in they wasn't interested. So got 30 more and 10 red neocardina. managed to get the price knocked well down from £3.50 each to £2.00 with bulk buy too.



 




Sorry about poor quality pics. pH stable again without even touching it the BPS/working PSI decreasing the light intensity sorted it

My own STUPID fault


----------



## Zeus.

Tank update and future plans.

Due to the tank being 500l the scape layout and the plants filling in, I think with the present pump/flow/ distribution of the spray bars I’m starting to hit the limit of what I can achieve esp with my [CO2] being maxed out with well over 1ph drop and DC light yellow to clear at lights on (more clear than yellow) minor algae issues and some melting crypts/trident when the plants fill in, reomoved the affending leaves improves flow the new leaves grow nice flow reduces back to melt.

So been looking into improving the ‘King’ ie -Flow, which at the same time reducing complex plumping to reduce cleaning time/ detritus bluid up.
The present flow output FX6 And ehiem 3000+ should yield close to x10 which has worked well, however it takes 4-6hrs to take all pipes out ( cleaning them _in situ _isn’t an option as of the mess it might make of base/carpet). In the early months a lime green DC was enough, which with increasing biomass has needed to be much increased to maintain to tank at its present level.

Various options explored from expensive 12v controllable powerheads to the cheaper 240v constant speed ones. Each not really doing what I was really after, ie great laminar flow with not hardware in sight (the lower spray in my tank does nothing for aesthetics)

So ‘Think Big or Go Home’ this was never going to be an easy tank.

So after much reading old threads, asking Ian_m about various possible hardware solutions, posting about a product which Ian and myself should do the trick, input from others to getting feedback from Chris from his journal *The Lazy Asian Biotope* I have decided on getting a Maxspext Gyre XF230 x2 £414, which whilst initially seems exspensive compared to other options, aesthetics once fitted and performance isn’t as bad as it seems. The laminar flow which the gyre produces along with the gyre effect with twin XF230 fitted side by side in place of the upper spraybar should yield an output of 18,000 l/h which is x36 turnover  but via the controller the pumps output can be reduced easy to yield about 3000lph.

I have been asking Maxspect lots of questions direct OFC which has just paid off as as going to ordered the pumps in next few days. Just got email from Maxspect about a new model coming out in Sept that is virtually silent as the XF230 is noisy compared to the XF250 model. Well that’s put a spanner in my plans


----------



## Chris Jackson

That’s a gorgeous tank and scape you have there Zeus! Ummm maybe one x XF250 to start then?.. quiet is nice! Upgrade to newer model at Xmas


----------



## Zeus.

Thanks for your kind comments on tank Chris  esp after seeing/reading your journel The Lazy Asain Biotype epic 

Hate waiting as was ready to buy XF230 X2 as they would fit great. Plus reduce hardware in tank then reduction in plumbing too. Be great on WC day ‘Max Power’ till the detritus gets in suspension and filter removes it .

The XF250 has a minimum output of 5000lph and two XF250 might just fit being 11.8 inches wide each. But minimum output of 10,000lph and max 40,000lph is just too powerful. Plus the controlors are model dependant also. So has to two of the same models for one controler. So best to wait and get better laminar flow/gyre with the twin XF330 model.


----------



## Chris Jackson

Zeus. said:


> Thanks for your kind comments on tank Chris  esp after seeing/reading your journel The Lazy Asain Biotype epic
> 
> Hate waiting as was ready to buy XF230 X2 as they would fit great. Plus reduce hardware in tank then reduction in plumbing too. Be great on WC day ‘Max Power’ till the detritus gets in suspension and filter removes it .
> 
> The XF250 has a minimum output of 5000lph and two XF250 might just fit being 11.8 inches wide each. But minimum output of 10,000lph and max 40,000lph is just too powerful. Plus the controlors are model dependant also. So has to two of the same models for one controler. So best to wait and get better laminar flow/gyre with the twin XF330 model.



Haha.... I like to leave my detritus where it is, low tech fertiliser...! The Lazy Asian is a very different beast to your's though...

Someone wise once said "Good things come to those who wait" I find this particularly true with aquariums... sounds like you are wise...


----------



## Zeus.

Blackout






Wasnt really needed but was about to run out of CO2 (used spare when back from hols and not had time ) and would be without CO2 for a couple of days. So double 50% WC all ferts/LC off, no lights, air pump on 24/7. Had some GSA on Anubis on DW which I had planned to put in a dark plastic tub for a week to clear it up but will see how this goes.

Also picked up a Hanna pH probe quite shocking how much of a pH drop I was actually getting  and got a JBL DC on the way. Just need better Turnover IMO, taped up a few holes in spraybar which has helped


----------



## Zeus.

Backout went well, cleaned up what algea there was and after going to Aquarium Gardens think I was wasnt actually that bad at all 

But the tank was suffering from reduced flow, So took out the C.Bal and the trident which was at the top of the tank, one peice of driftwood which was a big flow reducer esp when full of trident.

Three tubs of Hygrophila pinnatifida one of Hygrophila “Araguaia” tube of Gorilla gel and












Flow is tons better OFC and the Hygrophila should fill in niclely esp seeing it likes light just need to pinch the heads out as its gets going. Much more light landing on carpet on wall side of tank OFC planted a few micro swords and MHG harvested from the rest of the carpet, still needs a bit more OFC
Also put some of the Hygrophila in the anubias and trident which should reduce the light landing on them also as it fills in, well thats the plan


----------



## Niton

Hi Zeus. I'm a noob and working on a similar layout albeit on a very different scale. You have a great scape there and the details in this journal are a great resource for me. Thanks for taking the time to document all of this.


----------



## Zeus.

Niton said:


> Hi Zeus. I'm a noob and working on a similar layout albeit on a very different scale. You have a great scape there and the details in this journal are a great resource for me. Thanks for taking the time to document all of this.



Your welcome and glad you find it helpful. I do it for myself mainly to see where I was at and how its all going and to share my experiences good or bad. Wish I had put I bit more details in some ways, but thats hindsight for you.


----------



## Filip Krupa

Looks great already. Looking forward to seeing it fill in.

Fil


----------



## Zeus.

Two weeks on from mini rescape and the Hygrophila pinnatifida and Hygrophila “Araguaia” are doing well 







Pinched out the head of one of the Hygrophila pinnatifida already, had different colour leaves of the Hygrophila pinnatifida due to them being different brands but have all gone the same colour as expected. Also been transplanted some of the MHG from other area of tank and a little I had growing submerged in tub in garden.

Increased the light intensity in all zones a bit but with the better flow and more suitable plants its not been an issue




The main carpet does seem to be picking up with a gentle pearling at times plus a little new root growth in the substrate. Carpet could do with a trim but going to leave it a bit longer to increase its energy reserves as I feel its been running on low reserves for some time


----------



## DutchMuch

@zeus got an update for us? 
Read through your journal again and started where I left off. Looks like the tank has been running great for you  personally im very pleased with the results you have been having.


----------



## Zeus.

Got back off Holiday this morning so been two weeks since the tanks filters have been cleaned did a fast 50% WC day before I went on 10day break, decided on no change for Ferts Lights etc and do a Big WC tonight first night back. Then BIG clean up WC at weekend. Plenty of GDA on Glass so pics very 'green' in post.

*N.B*.due the the possibility of the water company will be treating the water with chloramine instead of chlorine ATM with the current heatwave and high temps, will be double dosing prime and filter will be off on filling

Trident back to struggling, it fills in looks great then is crippled by its reduced flow and melts. It was fine 10 days ago, but WC over due as well will have compounded the Flow issue as well IMO


.




Needs a good trim of the melting leaves, Think the Gryes should resolve this flow issue as the plant fills in.

Hygrophila pinnatifida and Hygrophila “Araguaia” Filling in nicely








Carpet picking up too! 





Obviously above the compensation point for the light at the Substrate level. In need of a good trim IMO But the trim will be a BIG Job

The GDA is spoiling the quality of the PICs OFC. But we all get Algae/melt at times so documenting it for all to see is good IMO


----------



## LondonDragon

This journal has now been moved to the Featured Journals section, discussed amongst Mods and recommended by@ian_m

Congrats and keep it up


----------



## Zeus.

LondonDragon said:


> This journal has now been moved to the Featured Journals section



 Speechless Guys, Thank you  Made my return to work day after holiday that's for sure  

Will tidy up some of the sections and add more info to try and make it worthy of the honour


----------



## DutchMuch

Congrats on featured journals section  thats awesome.
Comment:
have never seen java fern sp. though (specifically needle leaf) deteriorate just due to flow conditions... ive actually seen it in high and low flow, you sure thats the issue? 
and hehe I guess I picked the right day to ask for an update


----------



## Edvet

When do you think the Gyre will be added?


----------



## Zeus.

DutchMuch said:


> have never seen java fern sp. though (specifically needle leaf) deteriorate just due to flow conditions... ive actually seen it in high and low flow, you sure thats the issue?



Well think the issue is the light intensity which is needed to keep the carpet going 50cm deep , the trident copes with when the flow is good, but when it fills in resulting in less flow localised flow around the trident then melts. This must be the fourth time its happened on me.



Edvet said:


> When do you think the Gyre will be added?



Was about to order them and was chatting with the Maxspect UK distributor about models output etc they was saying to get the XF250 as its so quiet ! but two XF230 whould be a better fit IMO, few emails later they informed me that the XF230 had a new version coming out in September 2018 which was as quiet as the XF250 with a better blade design. So plan to get them as soon as they hit the UK. Think it they will make flow control so easy with the controller too. Just max them out for 20mins with 18,000 L/H output and let the filter get all the detritus out of suspension then can have the twin gryes on different % outputs at different times  so the dead spot will be moving about in the tank all the time. I have great hopes for them. Never mind the plumbing I will get rid off too.


----------



## Edvet

Looking forward to see them at work.


----------



## Zeus.

To aid myself to keep a record of light setting and ferts I will add the current details as they change, always handy to keep a log 

during holiday a few few weeks previous




Big WC trimming day - wife was out of town so ideal day to make a mess 

Trident was looking quite bad too and the Anubis need a cut back as reducing flow also the Hygrophila pinnatifida had algea on some of the lower leaves and the leaves was starting to brake down - too much light! not enough ferts! too long with no WC! so turn the lights down a bit and ferts to 150%

Cleaned GDA from glass waffed substrate and 50% WC then cleaned filter double dosed Prime.

Removed DW for easy access to carpet





So trimmed carpet several Hours later and two 50% WC later




Sorry about the glare as hood wasn't on plus water hadn't settled either! that was Friday. Left hood off and glass covers so I could keep getting the little bits out as the surfaced.

Saturday - sorted the trident out it was a mess IMO but may of found the reason why from Tim Harrisons thread  could be . cut the Anubias back a bit in places put DW back in and Forgot photos  well wife was back and there was bit of a mess #
Also noticed it took 57mins to get the pH drop with the glass covers off which the two days before it only took 42mins
Did another 50% WC this morning sunday plus clean the filter again- surprising how much detritus was in the sponges so well worth the extra clean with having done a big trimming  and increase the ferts to a 'Luxury dose' too 





Hygrophila pinnatifida was just about pearling at the lower light setting last night and carpet was sulking I think after the trim

will get some pics tonight


----------



## DutchMuch

I gotta start tracking my stuff lol
I envy you for that currently


----------



## Zeus.

DutchMuch said:


> I gotta start tracking my stuff lol
> I envy you for that currently



I'm bad for keeping a record of changes, up the lights bit few weeks later bit more then rinse repeat 8 weeks later where was it at to start with , when did I change the light ? 3 weeks or 6 weeks ago  same with the ferts  Hence the reason I thought I would start putting it in my Journal, if for no other reason than for myself   in search for that elusive 'sweat spot'


----------



## Zeus.

View attachment 117145


----------



## DutchMuch

dude that anubias looks like everyones goals for anubias sp. 
anubias nana I take it?
hmmm.
looking at the bottom pic, for future.... innovation; maybe Christmas moss on that wide open log. Speaking of which I have the bug today to buy a bunch of moss and grow it... idk if I will o-o help meh.
Ty for the FTS's wish I had a feature that whenever someone posted a FTS it would alert me XD
epic pics!


----------



## Zeus.

DutchMuch said:


> dude that anubias looks like everyones goals for anubias sp.



Thank you 'Its not doing too bad'  had to trim some out at weekend too 







DutchMuch said:


> looking at the bottom pic, for future.... innovation; maybe Christmas moss on that wide open log



I would like to put something on it but not keen on moss in that DW, as the DW can not be removed for trimming the moss, so one trimming down the road and will have moss all over the tank. I do have another piece of DW that had Bucephalandra 'wavy green' on it



 I took it out to help the carpet pickup, but put it in a tank with no turnover/flow and a week later most of it had melted, thinking of moss on there but cant make my mind up which one  Plan to use the yogurt method DSM in small tank flood it get it growing then add it back.


----------



## Edvet

Could you make a video? I would like to see the flow.


----------



## Zeus.

Edvet said:


> Could you make a video? I would like to see the flow.



Flow at Olympus is calling old vids, do plan to do some more very soon. Been onto Maxpect about the new Gyre release-



October ! but hopefully September


----------



## ian_m

Your Gyres are a mere piffle in flow rate..

For Beckton super sewer pumping station...3000 litres per second with a head on 88 meters and only 3.4MWatt per pump


----------



## Zeus.

*Filter Media*

Just thought I would share what filter media I have in my Fluval FX6





FX6 Coarse media sponges x6
FX6 Medium media sponges x2
Biohome Ulitmate 800grams (use to have it rammed with the 4Kg of Biohome) 
Clean the filter every week and it needs it IMO


----------



## DutchMuch

oof I have never cleaned my hydor professional 350 on my 40b
I mean I did like 2 times but that was a while ago >.>


----------



## Zeus.

DutchMuch said:


> oof I have never cleaned my hydor professional 350 on my 40b
> I mean I did like 2 times but that was a while ago >.>



Think my tank needs it to keep the flow/turnover as good as possible with the filter/pump output, yours my be fine with less cleaning OFC. Hoping the Gyres will reduce the maintenance by keeping the flow/turnover better, but always good to remove detritus esp when the tank feels like its on the edge


----------



## DutchMuch

Zeus. said:


> Think my tank needs it to keep the flow/turnover as good as possible with the filter/pump output, yours my be fine with less cleaning OFC. Hoping the Gyres will reduce the maintenance by keeping the flow/turnover better, but always good to remove detritus esp when the tank feels like its on the edge


I agree ur tank needs it as u clean it, seems to be working doesn't it?  in such a large tank with that size filter I would suspect it'd need a good cleaning pretty often. Keep up the good work  !


----------



## becks

Beautiful tank


----------



## PARAGUAY

Think I agree with Zeus on filter cleans, I used to leave ,manafacturer guidlines, to a couple of months on the externals 2000ltres hr claimed, started to never leave were possible longer than 2 weeks and so much better. The Impeller and housing every month


----------



## Zeus.

PARAGUAY said:


> Think I agree with Zeus on filter cleans, I used to leave ,manafacturer guidlines, to a couple of months on the externals 2000ltres hr claimed, started to never leave were possible longer than 2 weeks and so much better. The Impeller and housing every month



I was a little concerned about a pump failure on my FX6 and the time it would take to get another, so priced up the pump and not that much more to buy another FX6! So got a second FX6, works well as I can have one cleaned canister ready pump removed cleaned and refitted ready so on WC day I just change the media over, even put the media baskets through the dishwasher every so often May sound a bit OTT but speeds up cleaning filter and having a spare gives peace of mind.


----------



## PARAGUAY

Makes sense ,think these things often overlooked in case of keeping a tank giong in case of worst scenario too.


----------



## Zeus.

Re-guarding my weekly filter cleaning it suddenly dawned on me WHY my tank needs/benifits from the high frequency cleans, the obvious is because it works for me OFC but I rarely vac gently over the substrate whilst removing water as its difficult with tank being hooded and braced and plus never got round to sorting a easy system of doing it . I basically give the substrate a good waft with my hand stir up the detritus which gets it into suspension and the filter removes it, do it a few times before WC, hence the reason the sponges are always pretty dirty.

Have finally got round to sorting a VAC cleaning system out which I can attach to my hose to the garden pond


 
and got a turkey baser on order too ( have been meaning to order one for months ) Having seen the tanks at Green Aqua and how clean and algae free they was mine needs more maintenance fine tuning IMO


----------



## Lee iley

Wow Zeus I have just read through the whole journal what an inspiration you are. Well done the tank looks brilliant I take my hat off to you for all the graft you have put into this beautiful scape. I have a 400 litre low tech tank as I just dose liquid carbon and dose George farmers plant food every day. I have just rescaped my whole tank about 4 weeks ago I put loads of crypts in and they are still going through the melting stage. How many amano shrimp do you have now and do you have any cherrys I have 6 amano and 20 cheerys at the min but plan on getting more.


----------



## Lee iley

This my scape so far


----------



## Zeus.

Lee iley said:


> How many amano shrimp do you have now and do you have any cherrys I have 6 amano and 20 cheerys at the min but plan on getting more.



Started off with about 50 amano, but lost a few over the first year OFC but doing a count is very hard, some times it looks like I only have about 5 in the tank, added about 20 RCS recently but not seen any young ones yet but have in a smaller tank I put RCS in at the same time. Plus added about  an another 40 amanos recently too. I never pay more than £2.00 for my Amanos or RCS when I go in to my LFS I ask how many do I have to buy to get your best price  Plus with tank being braced I never find amanos on the floor.


----------



## Andrew Butler

Zeus. said:


> Have finally got round to sorting a VAC cleaning system out which I can attach to my hose


Is this one of the self priming / shake up and down ones?
1/2" hose size?
Let me know how you get on with it and which one it is please Karl.


----------



## Zeus.

Andrew Butler said:


> Is this one of the self priming / shake up and down ones?
> 1/2" hose size?


 
no its the one a got free with my Fluval FX6, it can be attached direct to the FX6 and recycle the water back to the tank but ends up in lots of tiny suspended particles in tank that way so only did it once. The mod I did yesterday was so I could prime it then attach it to my long hose, used it this morning, was pain in the butt. Lots of potential to get a major spillage of water, then after I gave the carpet a good waft and still got detritus coming up. Really think the Maxspect Gyres will help this tank as will be able to turn the flow up at wafting time which will keep the detritus in suspension longer then the filter can do the rest then clean the filter of detritus


----------



## Andrew Butler

Zeus. said:


> it can be attached direct to the FX6 and recycle the water back to the tank


I thought the FX6 had some kind of vacuum as an option.
I'm looking for a hand pump siphon that gives me 1/2" either side so I can fit it to my hozelock.



Zeus. said:


> Really think the Maxspect Gyres will help this tank as will be able to turn the flow up at wafting time which will keep the detritus in suspension longer then the filter can do the rest then clean the filter of detritus


So long as everything is well rooted, the fish might not thank you for cranking it up that high though!
You know maxspect will keep delaying release.


----------



## Zeus.

Went to Green Aqua in Budapest the other week and I have a long way to go before its as clean and algae free as their tanks, but always good to see whats possible, had a good chat with the guys and with the limited time I had as wife will only hang about so long, three things I took away which might help me

1. Root Tabs ! I have been meaning to get some but never got round to it so got some ADA ones and stuck them in a week ago.
2. Water temp. They run their tanks at 22 degrees Celsius in the showroom. Tried to lower my tanks temps but even with the heaters off they go above 23-24 but 'winter is coming' 
3. Snails in all their tanks

Plus non of their tanks was over 12 months old, its been 18 months since I started my DSM 

Was very tempted by the ADA RGB solar LED lights the colours was amazing, Good job they wasn't in stock. Same they don't dim either


Its been a month since I trimmed the carpet and tank has not been looking so happy, micro swords dying back with algea due to trimming! Hygrophila pinnatifida was doing well but algae and BBA was increasing on the anubias due to the increase light, but the MHG is coming back and roots improving in substrate too, so turned the light down and the Hygrophila pinnatifida took a turn for the worse after a couple of weeks so turned the light back up, I think its starting to recover but the Anubis will take the hit with the extra light, so I've took some Pogostemon helferi and squeezed it into the anubias to provide some shade, not sure if I like it or not? Also gave the Trident a good trim back to help the flow and its coming back already. Rocks are in need of a good clean but quite a few can be taken out and soaked in weak bleach them primed.

Pest snails doing well so I had planned to sort them out with eSHa Gastropex which I had done a test run on my 16l fluval single dose wasn't so effective so double dosed and it sorted the snails out and shrimp was fine so ordered a job lot to sort it. But when I did the repeat dose 14days later a lost a few shrimp and some fish I had in quarantine in the tank at the time also! so was cautious to dose my 50l and 500l tanks to clear the pest out! So decided to embrace the snails as 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' after all and detritus and algae is the worst enemy after all, so ordered some Ramshorns snails and dropped them in the tank also

Also boosted the clean up crew by  Amanos x10, Tiger Ottos x2 and SAE x3 (small)

Got my Turkey baster and well put it this way I had to do two 50% WC after using it and my filter was full of detritus like never before. I could of caught some water off whilst using the baster clipped to a hose but it would off been to much of a water spillage hazard IMO, so it was a case of blast the carpet etc get the detritus into suspension and let the filter remove it, there was LOADS! which is bad and good, bad it was there in the first place, but good that I have identified a major fault in my maintenance  Expected really, as with two thirds of tank being relatively the same level the detritus settles at the lowest point and thats 2/3 of tank, I should of took some pics but was gobsmacked at what was coming up, its going to take a few WC's and baster to removed whats needed IMO

Also have an Ehiem skim on full time.

Slightly lowered the target pH also so pH drop in 36mins and DC still yellish green, think I've been a bit OTT with the [CO2] trying to battle the algae but hopefully the reinforced clean up crew will help


----------



## Matt @ ScapeEasy

I've heard quite a few people running planted tanks at a slightly lower temperature now... you would think it would slow plants growth... not sure of the theory behind it?


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Matt @ ScapeEasy said:


> I've heard quite a few people running planted tanks at a slightly lower temperature now... you would think it would slow plants growth... not sure of the theory behind it?


It may be a CO2 effect, gases are more soluble at lower temperatures.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Matt @ ScapeEasy

Interesting!! Thanks


----------



## Zeus.

After doing Pot Scape and been really happy with how well the pot scape is doing and great plant growth learning lots with some reaching the top of the tank and great colours and healthy stems, then the idea cam to mind with these potted plants, just drop them in my 500l



I just gently placed the pots in between the hardscape I have you can only just see the pots from one end of the tank



Think the results speak for themselves IMO. Needless to say I have plans for adding more pots when the plants are ready from my pot scape and so easy to move around and take pot out for trimming stems and replanting. some might call it cheating but I call it conman sense and Fun with instant impact. Even thinking about having areas where the pot can be sunken into the carpet so you cant see the pot with the carpet then just carefully lift it out for trimming or a different plant, The future is 'Pots' IMO


----------



## Tim Harrison

Looking great, I reckon you could do with some stems at the back (the side against the wall) just under the spraybar as well


----------



## Zeus.

Tim Harrison said:


> Looking great, I reckon you could do with some stems at the back (the side against the wall) just under the spraybar as well



Was thinking the same myself and nearly took some crypts out and added some more pots as have some ready but thought 'PATIENCE YOU MUST HAVE my young padawan' so thought I would see how the two pots I've added do with the flow and light first, makes sense OFC


----------



## Matt @ ScapeEasy

Loving this new planting style!


----------



## Zeus.

Matt @ ScapeEasy said:


> Loving this new planting style!



Me too if you plan your hardscape around hiding the pots it just makes life easier. I just got lucky in a way. But retrospectivly I think the idea is a good one.


----------



## Zeus.

Had a little issue with my Kessils 160 with a bit a cooling issue* here *

Decided to add more stems LOTS of stems as wife wasnt keen on the crypts anyway, so Pick up some cheep bunches of stems from LFS plus already had some in my Pot scape. To help me decide on how they would look I decided to just use some ceramic filter rings I had then they would be easy to move etc two stems per small ceramic ring to try and keep the flow around each stem




Took out most of my Crypts and over the last couple of weeks been busy adding more and more stems and have some growing in pot scape to add later.







Can see how they grow, melt colour up in various spots and how well it looks then I may plant them in the AS, well at least the ones you can see I will, the ones you can't see I may just leave as they will root into the AS anyway.

Increased the light intensity to suit the stems better and its early days but the BBA and algea in general seems to be decreasing, there was less GDA on the glass this week also, but the snail population is increasing OFC

Been blasting the substrate with the Turkey Blaster lots at WC too, like a dust storm at WC and leaves a fine detritus over all plants rocks/wood when it settles even after 50% WC, the fine detritus is removed/disturbed  by the clean up crew by the next day and all is good


----------



## foxfish

Nice change, looks great although lots of trimming I guess....


----------



## Tim Harrison

The journey continues. Looks like your scape is entering a new chapter


----------



## Lee iley

Looking good Zeus well done. Top scape.


----------



## Edvet

Looking good, maintenance will go up a lot


----------



## Zeus.

Edvet said:


> Looking good, maintenance will go up a lot



But to quote Foxfish post from here



foxfish said:


> I am going to set the tank up with C02 and more light as I found this one a bit boring, it just seemed I was looking at the same picture every month. I like a bit more action.......



Crypts can be a bit boring with their slow growth, but the stems are fast and *colours* can be played with with the light/ferts, but yes more maintenance but I do tinker/look with all my tanks most nights for a few hours as nice escape from work. Plus the high growth rates of the increased biomass results in less algae issues with more intense light, I have experienced the same in my pot scape I have two lights on that ATM at 100% intensity and algae no problem, but at the start I had one light at 30% and had minor algae issues.


----------



## DutchMuch

wow haven't checked on this journal in a while
the progress is definitely noticeable 
and it has definitely improved
10/10


----------



## PARAGUAY

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, It may be a CO2 effect, gases are more soluble at lower temperatures.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Noticed in my quarantine tank  no heater moving frogbit to it from high tech ,thinning out, to just low tech it does well


----------



## Zeus.

Trimmed the carpet last week.
All was going well and was cleaning my independent line out yesterday and a broke the hose fitting on my Ehiem 3000+ when I was refitting it 





None in stock in any LFS so I fitted my spare FX6 which wouldn't fit inside the base





So bought some time as away next week too. Plus been waiting for release the New maxspect gyre XF330 which has been delayed till Xmas. The FX6 is giving better flow/output than the Eheim 3000+ so thats good as I will be able to see how some extra turnover benifits the plants. Plus it did help clear the tank water when stirring up all the detritus when doing a WC today so that was a bonus too. Had been planning the try it short term with both the FX6's on the tank but never got round to it 

Stems settling in nicely with winners and melters OFC





Just turn up the intensity at the wall end toady also, I wouldn't normally turn it up with going away but the tanks been coping with the extra intensity well with the stems and the WC will be delayed three days can always do a WC only on day I get back. Changing nothing lights and ferts wise for the break  Macros and Micros for six days day rest then start ferts cycle again. Did a 60-70% WC today


----------



## Akmaliano

Hi Zeus - having taken inspiration from your set-up here, I've connected one of those external EF boosters on the outflow of my Fluval 306 using a Qanvee M2 diffuser. Previously, I was injecting CO2 through the 306 using an UP inline diffuser and whilst I wasn't enjoying the regular burping of the filter along with quite a lot of bubbles still ending up in the tank, the CO2 diffusion seemed to be pretty good with my Ph dropping to 6.9 or even 6.8 without a problem. Now, it's stubbornly not going below 7 even if I increase the bubble rate quite a bit (it's quite fast now and I can't count the bubble rate). 

I've filled the EF with some plastic scourers as someone on the forum suggested. The flow from 306 doesn't seem to have been massively affected. 

Any ideas why this may be happening? I would've thought that with this method the dissolution rate would've significantly increased?


----------



## Zeus.

Akmaliano said:


> Hi Zeus - having taken inspiration from your set-up here, I've connected one of those external EF boosters on the outflow of my Fluval 306 using a Qanvee M2 diffuser. Previously, I was injecting CO2 through the 306 using an UP inline diffuser and whilst I wasn't enjoying the regular burping of the filter along with quite a lot of bubbles still ending up in the tank, the CO2 diffusion seemed to be pretty good with my Ph dropping to 6.9 or even 6.8 without a problem. Now, it's stubbornly not going below 7 even if I increase the bubble rate quite a bit (it's quite fast now and I can't count the bubble rate).
> 
> I've filled the EF with some plastic scourers as someone on the forum suggested. The flow from 306 doesn't seem to have been massively affected.
> 
> Any ideas why this may be happening? I would've thought that with this method the dissolution rate would've significantly increased?



 My initial thought is that the APS EF is building up a big bubble as mine do also although mine still gets the pH drop but I do use lots of CO2 also. Have you check to see how much detritus is getting on the plastic scourers? I dont clean mine out much at all as they remain pretty clean being post filter.

The flow though my APS EF2 isnt very high at all, as I do have a bypass fitted as increased flow doesnt seem to increase the dissolution rate plus helps keep the output up.

Seems strange all the same will have a think on it  whats the size of your tank m8?


----------



## DutchMuch

oh GOD i missed the update of u planting the tank!!!
looks awesome dude im glad u decided to just blow the bank and buy a bunch of plants! haha! it looks great good choices  

Hope your pump will get fixed soon!


----------



## Akmaliano

I only installed it on Sunday so won't have much detritus especially since mine is also post-filter. Can't imagine there being a big bubble as it's stuffed with plastic scourers. Shame I can't remember who it was that I got this idea from, i.e. using scourers, otherwise would've asked them too. 

It's Fluval 240l. I've actually managed to make it drop to 6.9 just now but had to open up the needle valve quite a bit which is counter intuitive isn't it given the whole point of using such a reactor is to increase CO2 dissolution rate and efficiency..?


----------



## Akmaliano

Akmaliano said:


> I only installed it on Sunday so won't have much detritus especially since mine is also post-filter. Can't imagine there being a big bubble as it's stuffed with plastic scourers. Shame I can't remember who it was that I got this idea from, i.e. using scourers, otherwise would've asked them too.
> 
> It's Fluval 240l. I've actually managed to make it drop to 6.9 just now but had to open up the needle valve quite a bit which is counter intuitive isn't it given the whole point of using such a reactor is to increase CO2 dissolution rate and efficiency..?



Found it! https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/co2-injection-through-filter.49054/#post-482739 it was @Daveslaney who I stole the idea from  

@Daveslaney - sorry to bring you into here but I've set my EF up in a similar fashion to you and have noticed that making the ph drop below PH7 has become more difficult without cranking up the needle valve. Wondering if you had this problem when you set yours up using plastic scourers? Many thanks


----------



## Costa

@Zeus

Because this baby of yours is developing into a case study of mid-high tech large planted tanks, what I wanted to propose is that in the original post you provide links to the pages where you discuss in detail:

- ferts
- CO2: setup, distribution, challenges
- filtration
- flow
- your DIYs (incl links to DIY section of UKAPS)
- anything else 

Cheers 
Costa


----------



## zozo

Is that a 1/2" thread on it?



 

Than this should do.. 


 

Come in different also larger sizes. Pond shops definitively have them.


----------



## Zeus.

zozo said:


> Is that a 1/2" thread on it?



Unfortunately not  its all part of the plastic casing which isnt very think so think a repair would reduce the bore diameter and hence output so not keen, plus think a repair may not last IMO so may fail whilst in service which would be a MAJOR disaster so not worth trying IMO. Plus wife hant complained about the Extra FX6 in the room and hopefully Maxspect will release the new Gyre soon, sent them another e-mail last night

But thanks for the feedback m8


----------



## Andrew Butler

Zeus. said:


> hopefully Maxspect will release the new Gyre soon


----------



## Zeus.

Costa said:


> @Zeus
> 
> Because this baby of yours is developing into a case study of mid-high tech large planted tanks, what I wanted to propose is that in the original post you provide links to the pages where you discuss in detail:
> 
> - ferts
> - CO2: setup, distribution, challenges
> - filtration
> - flow
> - your DIYs (incl links to DIY section of UKAPS)
> - anything else
> 
> Cheers
> Costa



Good Idea m8  I have tried to add links to the first page already but an index would help folk also to find the relevant sections of interest. Put it on my 'todo' list


----------



## zozo

Oh!? Yes now i see.. You're in need of this..
https://www.aquaristikshop.com/aquaristik/EHEIM-Pumpengehaeuse-komplett-compact-3000/744651/


----------



## Zeus.

zozo said:


> Oh!? Yes now i see.. You're in need of this..
> https://www.aquaristikshop.com/aquaristik/EHEIM-Pumpengehaeuse-komplett-compact-3000/744651/



Nice one  ordered - I did have a google but had no luck finding the part and ehiem didnt list any spares for it either


----------



## zozo

Zeus. said:


> Nice one  ordered - I did have a google but had no luck finding the part and ehiem didnt list any spares for it either



Eheim service has it too. But to make it easier for the customers  it's a different Url. You only find strolling around.. But strangly Eheim is almost € 4 more expensive than it's retailers..  Now that's service.. 
https://www.eheim-service.de/7446510

And the Compact serie is replaced, still available as long as stocklist last.
https://www.eheim.com/en_GB/products/technology/pumps/compact_plus-3000

The LFS i go i asked for Eheim a while ago.. They no longer are eheim dealer, they switched to EDEN. For the reason it is much cheaper, beter quality and 2 year factory warrenty. So i gave it the benefit of the doubt and a try and have several EDEN pumps in use.. And must acknoweldge they realy are all they promise. Very good and very reasonably priced.
http://www.edensrl.com/index.php?id=29


----------



## Iain Sutherland

Don't try and fudge a fix, as I can confirm an Eheim 3000 at full bore will fill you house pretty quickly!!  The connection came off for about 2 minutes...
Thankfully this was a rented property 



Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## Zeus.

News from Maxspect


----------



## Zeus.

Did some work on my APS EF2 reactor with internal Venturi fitted but still needs some tweaking IMO. Two 50% WC yesterday as had been away so none down for two weeks. Big trim in some areas bit of a move around of some plants too ( some pics below of before and after). The Helanthium tenellum 'Brown' was starting to take over the carpet a bit and the Eleocharis acicularis 'mini' and 'Lilaeopsis brasiliensis 'micro swords' was struggling a bit 





A slow and tricky job teasing them out




Not finished yet OFC it but looks better and the Minigrass and micro swords should soon pickup


----------



## DutchMuch

1 word.

Awesome.


----------



## Zeus.

Santa is coming early as the Maxspect XF300 Gyres will be delivered tomorrow , looking forward to fitting them and removing some of the plumbing


----------



## Tim Harrison

Maybe you could post a vid; it'd be good to see them working.


----------



## Zeus.

Tim Harrison said:


> Maybe you could post a vid; it'd be good to see them working.



Had planned to and over a month ago I did a present flow vid of tank.


----------



## Andrew Butler

Zeus. said:


> the Maxspect XF300 Gyres will be delivered tomorrow


----------



## Zeus.

Sink Test


----------



## Zeus.

Removed the piping, inlets, spraybars pumps that was no longer needed






Fitted the Gyres and the STD Fluval outlet and the Gyre controller to the cabinet








had a play with the various outputs and I do like the Alternating Gyre Mode





But not the way maxspect have it in the graph. But one Gyre A takes 10secs to get to 30% stays there 5mins then ramps down to 10% in 10 secs stays there for 5mins rinse repeat. Gyre B is at 10% when Gyre A is at 30% and so on Like this Alternating Gyre Mode as the 'deadspots' will be moving all the time IMO. Variuos speed for different parts of the day OFC and at night I use the Alternating Gyre Mode again but with one pump stopping to allow the cleanup crew time to clean it for 15mins then they swap over.

Pretty quiet but fond them nosiest at 40% above that they was quieter but will take a few days to bed in. Had them upto about 60% and  all the fish was well out of the current. 







Will get a vid as soon as I get time


----------



## Tim Harrison

Looks much neater, without all that piping. We just need to see a video now


----------



## Andrew Butler

I'm sure you're still experimenting but I found mine more effective when they were a little lower in the tank; whether you will have the same experience or not I don't know.


----------



## Edvet

A and B is just different gyres? or are there multiple pumps in one?


----------



## Zeus.

Andrew Butler said:


> I'm sure you're still experimenting but I found mine more effective when they were a little lower in the tank; whether you will have the same experience or not I don't know.



The new XF300 range have flow directors so the flow direction is better I think, so should be able to go higher in tank IMO.



Edvet said:


> A and B is just different gyres?



Yes A and B are two separate Gyres which can be mounted either end of tank, I have them side by side.

Just programmed the controller so once an hour during photoperiod the Gyres are on 100% and 30% alternating for 10 mins then both on at 90% for 5mins.


----------



## Costa

How much flow is that @Zeus. in lph? At 100% isn't it too much for your fish? Does it flow reach the bottom third of the tank?

Have a nice day!


----------



## Zeus.

Costa said:


> How much flow is that @Zeus. in lph? At 100% isn't it too much for your fish?



Maxspect claim 9000LPH for the XF330 so I have two so that's 18000LPH plus the FX6
At 100% X2 is is too much for the fish, well they do seem to go for the deadspots when the flow is high, but they are in training ATM. Have the set the high flow period for 5mins once every 30 mins ATM. 



Costa said:


> Does it flow reach the bottom third of the tank?



Had them at 50%:50% last night whilst cleaning the GDA off Glass the surface ripple was to end of tank. 
I am not worried about the fish as I have a 3cm rule for max size of fish so lots of deadspots for small fish and the SAE do seem to like the flow same with the RCS.


----------



## Zeus.

Maxspect XF300 x2 Flow/Turnover



My initial thoughts are (+/- emperors new clothes syndrome). Fantastic it was just what I was after , WC was quicker tank cleared quicker after turkey blasting the carpet, probably as FX6 has a higher output without spraybar on OFC, doing schedules takes a little time having a USB/Ethernet connection would be a nice touch so schedules could be done via PC. 
Easy of setup - easy
Value for money- Excellent after you price in the cost of pumps plumbing after all the Eheim 3000+ wasnt cheap and had one speed, plus on pipes to clean.
Flow is king in the high tech tank so for my tank the Gyres have just given the flow the variable performance the King deserves. But it is early days OFC .
Glad I waited for the XF330 and not to get the XF230 as they would of cost me more and the upgrades gave a better model.


----------



## Tim Harrison

That's some flow. Scapes looking really healthy


----------



## Zeus.

Tim Harrison said:


> Scapes looking really healthy



Too kind Tim  up close all I see is its faults


----------



## hazeljane

Nice looking tank


----------



## Zeus.

Nearly had the Gyres fitted a week so thought a review was due.

pH profile showed the unstable profile on the first day which I excepted OFC as I had been playing with different gyre outputs, plus I always felt my flow/turnover wasnt good enough so I did go for a high [CO2] which with a better flow/turnover I felt I wouldnt need as big a pH drop as the flow would make up for it. So lowered the target pH 0.1pH at a time but left the injection rate the same, played with some output profiles and settled on the Alternating Gyre Mode for all the 19 scheduled outputs I have ATM. The main output is 30% A and 20% B then swapping over every five mins, Five minute bursts of 80% A 30%B every 30 mins during full intensity photoperiod. Plus a 1 min bust of 100% A and 100% B when the CO2 goes off which happens to be x36 output to volume ratio. During the night I have one Gyre on at a time and one occasionally in reverse flow 10% which is keeping any buildup of leaves on the mesh to nothing ATM. Also have an occasional night burst flow too
Target pH is 7.40pH ( it was 7.20pH) and its staying within 0.03pH of that from lights on till CO2 off so very pleased with that. The DC is still light yellow, plus only takes 30mins to get to target pH know and it was taking about 50mins before. Also have the kessils on 100% intensity and spectrum during main photoperiod too which I did have a few weeks before fitting the Gyres too
The fish do seem to like the fast flow periods darting about in it when it comes on.
pH of tank before CO2 came on was always about 8.8pH before I had the gyres fitted. Just noticed today it was 8.90pH and DC a bit more Blue, so it appears to be degasing more at night too with the better Alternating flow/turnover.


----------



## Edvet

Have you noticed less deadspots/ less mulm? (thats why you do all the switching and bursting dont you?)


----------



## Zeus.

Edvet said:


> Have you noticed less deadspots/ less mulm?



Hard to say as the mulm tends to be all settled in the carpet and in the plants attached to wood eg the Anubis plus its only been a week, tend to see it most when I turkey blast the carpet and the plants attached to wood and rocks and I get great clouds of it.



Edvet said:


> thats why you do all the switching and bursting dont you?



Yes to help reduce the detritus build up, plus the bursting will give some flow in the deadest of deadspots I hope,  to keep the nutrients is good supply to all the plants too.


----------



## Ady34

Great breakdown of the results. They look like excellent bits of kit and have improved the overall look and performance so win win.
Really nice looking tank


----------



## DutchMuch

zues this is going awesome! i havent checked in in a while and it looks fantastic! please keep up the great scaping! 


But other than kind comments here is 1 piece of constructive criticism, more color! not red, i think red would stand out to much and re shape the whole scape. My vote, more yellows!!! .


----------



## Zeus.

DutchMuch said:


> My vote, more yellows!!!



Good idea  I had a pot of red ready to go in so more red I'm afraid. After some more plants had a quick look but nothing has took my fancy except some Bolbitis with is dark green think it might look good at the wall end, dont think it likes hard water.

Trimmed the carpet last week one side this week the other, pulling out lots a stringy moss with AS attached, also had a area with Ricca moss doing well so used a fork to get it out of the carpet.







RCS still increasing in number so them so much

Pic of feeding fenzy with algae pellet, pre carpet trim




Sorry about the quality of the pics, but it does help hide all the faults 

Clean the filter out this week, first time in four weeks  it needed it think a month is too long at its present stage.

Also stopped using LCO as some of my Pogostemon helferi wasnt doing so well and I had pin holes in my Hygrophila pinnatifida which I have always had on older leaves which then melt and fall off, seeing if that helps although its less nutrition but I did have it at a highish level. Had it off for about four weeks. Still getting the pinholes but the P Helferi does seem to be doing better so cleaned it up a bit and replanted plus had some ready from pot tank

Maxspect gryres still spinning gave them a clean today







didnt take long at all


----------



## Zeus.

I have Buces flowing all the time in the tank and normally last about 24hrs but the Anubis doesnt flower that often think only had it once before




Could do with Nigel poping with his photo skills to do it justice

Other chages this week are my change in use of the Chihiros doctor

Twinstar dont advise this as reported by Daveslaney here and a cant see a good reason why not myself as all it produces is O2 and H2, but I have noticed a bigger pH increase at night of about 0.5pH yet the time it takes to reach target pH recorded by the PLC remains unchanged . See how it goes long term as tank is clearer without the micro bubbles I was getting from the mesh

Also been getting (or always got) pin holes in my H. pinn



So had a read around and came across an old thread at ASW Hygrophila pinnatifida issues and just like ShadowMac reported I get the pin holes and then melting in my big tank yet in another smaller tank the H Pinn is fine yet EI doses was the same.


----------



## Zeus.

Hygrophila pinnatifida still not looking it best so I had a look at my ferts again

I was dosing for some time





so the ppm weekly yields are in red and reducing the Micro amount to 80ml yielded an Fe of 0.58ppm

Do think I well overdose my ferts so cut back this week a little more as seeing a month had passed. reducing the Micro to a 50ml dose x3 and the Macro to 100ml x3 and see if that helps





Increased the KPO4 in the Macros a bit too. Thinking of reducing the Macro dose to 50ml too but have made that reduction in my potted tank and see how it goes in there with the Hygrophila pinnatifida

A quick side shot from chair




_ have taken the Chihiros doctor mesh out of the filter intake as I was getting lots of RCS in filter . AS for the Gyres well this week their wasnt as much detritus when I turkey Blasted the carpet and the tank cleared fastest yet and filter didnt seem to have as much detritus in the foam as last week_


----------



## Zeus.

Been struggling with my Hygrophila pinnatifida for some time trying to work out whats wrong with my parameters. in the thread *EI dosing please help** and **Hygrophila pinnatifida issue* I think I (with the help of other folks inputs) stumbled across what one of the issue is, which is a obvious with hindsight Fe deficiency due to increasing pH of tank over time due to ADA AS losing its acid buffering capacity

pH of my tap water is 9.5 if left for 24hrs, pH of my tank water is 9.5 if also left 24hrs. Target pH for CO2 is 7.4. It use to be as high as 6.66pH at one time when first planted 

I'm dosing EI ferts with Fe EDTA, which in Darrels handy table below shows at what pH Fe solubility range is in its various 'forms' 




So ordered in the Trace ferts and FeDTPA and FeEDDHA as well. Thought I would use the FeEDDHA for 4-6 weeks as its solubility range is very wide 4-9.0pH in the stuff I got from Solufed. Se how/if the plants respond then I can always switch to FeDTPA Still awaiting some minor trace ferts which I wasnt going to wait for OFC so checked on Rotala Butterfly the dry salts to add to volume of tank and mixed it in RO water as two tanks to do and added to tanks as today is Micro day with my EI mix.


----------



## Zeus.

After a week of dosing and an Fe EDDHA weekly dose of 0.6ppm its quite red



 




 Was thinking about doing a Trace mix of both Fe DTPA and Fe EDDTA so they will both yield say 0.3ppm a week each so 0.6ppm total. Took a glass full out and it only has a slight tinge, but with full tank width its too much IMO.

Read IRON CHELATE INTERFERENCE: THE DOWNSIDE OF FE-EDDHA AND FE-HBED. Fe EDDHA seems to not have an issue with Light, unlike Fe DTPA is broken down by it.


----------



## Oldguy

Zeus. said:


> Fe EDDHA



Have you considered reducing the pH of your tank and water change water. This could be done by the use of phosphoric acid and potassium hydrogen sulphate. With a bit of juggling of numbers you could get EI dosing by reducing the corresponding salts that are usually used. This would enable you to use less stable chelates to deliver iron and other transition metal ions. This is the path that I chose when I noticed an upward drift in pH in my tank. If you do go down this route then dilute phosphoric acid is easier to use than the concentrated.

Nice tank & planting.


----------



## Zeus.

Oldguy said:


> Have you considered reducing the pH of your tank and water change water. This could be done by the use of phosphoric acid and potassium hydrogen sulphate. With a bit of juggling of numbers you could get EI dosing by reducing the corresponding salts that are usually used. This would enable you to use less stable chelates to deliver iron and other transition metal ions. This is the path that I chose when I noticed an upward drift in pH in my tank. If you do go down this route then dilute phosphoric acid is easier to use than the concentrated.
> 
> Nice tank & planting.



Yes I had thought about it and dismissed it due to only thinking about using RO water, Thought I would try the more stable chelates first as thought it may be an easy solution to the problem. Hadn't looked into using other solutions to reduce the pH so thanks for the heads up M8 . I had thought about moving to a soft water area also


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,





Zeus. said:


> After a week of dosing and an Fe EDDHA weekly dose of 0.6ppm its quite red


If it bothers you I wouldn't necessarily add iron every week. I'd use the colour as an indication of when to add iron, so basically when the water is no longer pink tinged add some more. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Zeus.

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,If it bothers you I wouldn't necessarily add iron every week. I'd use the colour as an indication of when to add iron, so basically when the water is no longer pink tinged add some more.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Was thinking about that option and was going to pm you about doing it.
So make the trace mix without the iron in dose other trace elements normal and just add Iron  manually with other stock solution till slight pink top up as required


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,





Zeus. said:


> So make the trace mix without the iron in dose other trace elements normal and just add Iron manually with other stock solution till slight pink top up as required


I'd try that, I don't know whether it will work, but my guess is that it will.

cheers Darrel


----------



## ian_m

You need an iron dosing peristaltic pump channel connected to your PLC, bit of Logo SoftComfort fiddling. Job done.


----------



## Zeus.

ian_m said:


> You need an iron dosing peristaltic pump channel connected to your PLC, bit of Logo SoftComfort fiddling. Job done.



It did cross my mind already 



dw1305 said:


> so basically when the water is no longer pink tinged add some more



The more I think about using the slight pink tinge as a gauge the more I like it. Yes I can add Fe DTPA to the micro mix but with it breaking down with light and it only being soluble during the peak CO2 periods having it dosing to yield say Fe 0.3ppm then having a slight pink tinge in the tank seems a plan


----------



## rebel

dw1305 said:


> so basically when the water is no longer pink tinged add some more.


Trust Darell to come up with an unusual solution!!


btw is it possible for you to alter your spectrum. Wonder whether increasing blue to counteract the tint a little?


----------



## Zeus.

rebel said:


> btw is it possible for you to alter your spectrum. Wonder whether increasing blue to counteract the tint a little?



Possibly could can it a little, when the glowlux T5 tubes come on its very red, plus the redness will be worse next week as [FeEDDHA] will only be reduced 50-60% with the WC (minus what the plants have used OFC). Tank appears darker too so I would imagine the PAR intensity reaching the plants has decreased as well, but without a PAR meter no way of measuring any difference so just a guess.

If using the 'pink tinged' works as a way to measure and control the Fe needed/used by the plants I can see no reason why I cant use the amount of FeEDDHA used and the ppm the tank uses a week and alter my EI dose to the same ratio, makes sense to me anyway.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





rebel said:


> Trust Darell to come up with an unusual solution!!


It isn't really <"an original idea">, when I worked on the Nursery it was the method we used to get the right amount of <"liquid feed in the irrigation water">.

I think we should have checked the strenght with a conductivity meter, but I don't remember any-one ever checking. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Monkfish

The tanks I see on this forum never cease to amaze me. Incredible setup!


----------



## Zeus.

Dosed 0.3ppm Fe DTPA via auto doser this week and 0.08ppm Fe EDDTA so I had a slight pink/red tinge to the water. The Fe EDDTA was dose at 0.05ppm on first Micro day had slight tingle and added a further 0.03ppm on second micro day. On last micro day of the week I didnt dose any Fe EDDTA yet the tank got more red. I think the Fe DTPA may be recharging the Fe EDDTA as the Fe DTPA gets degraded by the light 

Pic of the Anubis showing signs of Fe deficiency as it starts its recovery




Hygrophila pinnatifida hasn't picked up yet  but only been two weeks 

My SAE have got a taste for my RCS  so have had to find a new home for them


----------



## rebel

Yep those SAE are far too big. I move em on once they get to 6cm. They will eat far worse than your RCS. Mine had eaten almost all my moss and AR mini.


----------



## Filip Krupa

rebel said:


> Yep those SAE are far too big. I move em on once they get to 6cm. They will eat far worse than your RCS. Mine had eaten almost all my moss and AR mini



That's crazy!
Ive 17 SAE in my tank, but there is plenty of algea for them 

Will keep an eye out though.

Fil


----------



## Zeus.

My RCS have boomed no end since the SAE was taken out, so hundreds of tiny mouths cleaning all the time rather than a few, plus splash of bright red all over the place.


----------



## Regent

What is your feeling on flow now you've had the gyres a while? Is it too much at high flow?
I'm debating gyres vs tunze 6040's vs aqamai kps/m My main challenge is going to be circulation ar depth as the tank is 3ft long but 30inchs deep...


----------



## Zeus.

Regent said:


> Is it too much at high flow?



Yes if you was running them at that all the time. Its just like my car it it do over 100MPH but never had the need to do it. But being able to turn them up when Turkey blasting the carpet and to have them on a high speed for 5mins every hour or so I think is a great bonus, slower speeds at night etc etc



Regent said:


> What is your feeling on flow now you've had the gyres a while?



Great buy for my tank/setup  Great, programmable output via a schedule with 24 slots and no plumbing easy to clean, plus dont have to worry about the filter output either so could probably fit a smaller filter


----------



## DutchMuch

Gosh been a while since i checked in on this. Looks great as usual


----------



## Zeus.

Its been a while since some pics so though I little update was due
Trimmed my trident back hard in early April 2019
it was




to




Purchased some new pH electrodes and some testing solutions to calibrate my pH probes and pens and turned out my water wasn't as alkaline as I thought - turns out my tap water after 24hrs is about 8.5pH




Have recently (Sunday) reprogrammed my PLC so the pH controller does nothing but record the time it takes to get to the target pH then I just set the PLC to do the CO2 boost ( CO2 injection x2) for that period then down to single CO2 injection. Worked a treat today as at the end of the CO2 period it was at the same pH as the target pH  I have done this as it saves having to re calibrate the pH probe as it varies over time OFC

Have just been on Holiday so no water change for 3 weeks and no change in photoperiod or intensity same ferts as normal, daughter popped in every couple of days dropped an algae pellet in and a little food. Did a 50% WC on Friday and tidied up a bit and not too bad at all.

Did a Vid nothing professional OFC - took me longer than I thought  


So thats 4 days after WC and a quick clean only, Pre three weeks no maintenance - carpet needs a trim IMO


----------



## Jayefc1

Wow just wow that is stunning mate absolutely stunning the trident fern has bounced back do well all the plants look amazing os that Pogostemon Helferi has it been difficult to grow hows the light working out 
Cheers
Jay


----------



## Tim Harrison

Looking great Karl...
Nice music as well, if a little sad; Barber's Adagio for Strings...I keep expecting to see Sgt. Elias stumbling out from behind the Trident with the Việt Cộng in hot pursuit...


----------



## Zeus.

Jayefc1 said:


> Wow just wow that is stunning mate absolutely stunning the trident fern has bounced back do well all the plants look amazing os that Pogostemon Helferi has it been difficult to grow hows the light working out
> Cheers
> Jay



Thank you   I trimmed the Trident  back so hard so the carpet could get some light. The Pogostemon Helferi still isnt right and playing with the ferts slowly but still getting pinholes and melting of the older leaves, but less but after a fert ppm chage like to give it 6-8 weeks to see if it helps- dont think the hard water helps either


----------



## Zeus.

Tim Harrison said:


> Barber's Adagio for Strings...



Barber's Adagio for Strings.   always listen to it for scaping put me in the right place, but yes sad and very powerful peace of music IMO having watched Vietnam war in colour by Burns and Novick on netflix puts the Vietnam conflict into perspective


----------



## Edvet

Looks very healthy
( i would very gradually start getting plants and fish from the same area, but hey, that's silly me)


----------



## Tim Harrison

Zeus. said:


> sad and very powerful peace of music IMO having watched Vietnam war in colour by Burns and Novick on netflix puts the Vietnam conflict into perspective


I'm going to check that out, looks fascinating, if more than a little harrowing...


----------



## Zeus.

Tim Harrison said:


> I'm going to check that out, looks fascinating, if more than a little harrowing...



Sorry I miss quoted its title it's 'The Vietnam War' by Burns and Novick, it's a bit of an epic series at about 16hrs but a very informative series that covers the 20year conflict very well.


----------



## James Burcham

Bravo, what a beautiful tank!


----------



## Zeus.

Did a big trim of carpet this weekend - it took 6hr+ plus easy, it wasnt the trimming it was getting the moss out esp the Ricca Moss, then gave the carpet a turkey  blasting with the Gyres on 100% which due to hols etc I hadnt done it for about 4 weeks and I normally blast it weekly, with the carpet trimmed loads of detritus came up. Added some Blyxa Japonica which I had been growing in pot scape and moved the Bolbitis Heuelotii about a bit. Cleaned a few rocks up also.

Then did a 50% WC x2







Just need to trim the other side


----------



## Tim Harrison

Nice trim, looking very clean and neat. What's the piece of music called?


----------



## Zeus.

Tim Harrison said:


> What's the piece of music called?



Antonin Dvorak - Cello Concerto - Just a small part of it


----------



## Tim Harrison

Thanks, nice calm part of the second movement


----------



## Tom Michael

Lovely


----------



## Jacob Coleman

Great scape


----------



## Chris Tinker

so thats what my plants should look like they have some work to do haha


----------



## Zeus.

Cryptocoryne parva was getting a little unruly so a light trim was in order 







Fissidens Moss and Trident got a sightly lighter trim as well as a few others


----------



## jimi

This is a beautiful looking tank, just beautiful.


----------



## Chris Tinker

wow just wow.


----------



## Zeus.

Just noticed tonight one of the XF330 pumps wasnt working 
So I changed the pump channels over and the fault changed which pump wasnt working so it must be a controller issue.
So phoned maxspect at 4.50pm got though easy spoke to them and they informed me I must have a faulty controller (they do get a few), it was late in the day and they had turned their PCs off so they asked me to E-mail them the details and serial number and they would send me a replacement controller sent out on Monday.

Well it is 'Friday 13th'


----------



## Jayefc1

Thats still pretty good customer service mate even though it is the 13th lol


----------



## Zeus.

Got home to an Email

quote
A delivery will be made to you on 17/09/2019 by APC Overnight on behalf of BCUK AQUATICS LTD.

The delivery deadline is set for 16:00.

If you have a query regarding this email, please contact BCUK AQUATICS LTD
Unguote

Not bad service at all.

I did flash the firmware for the controller and did a factory reset and still it had issues, then overnight it started to work again


----------



## Edvet




----------



## Zeus.

New Controller arrived today at 9.00am   Top marks to BCUK and Maxspect for after sales service IMO 

Just need to do all the settings again  bit of a PITA but worth it


----------



## Costa

Curious if the respective Jebao wavemaker would have broken down so soon after purchase


----------



## Hanuman

Costa said:


> Curious if the respective Jebao wavemaker would have broken down so soon after purchase


Get it and tell us


----------



## Zeus.

Costa said:


> Curious if the respective Jebao wavemaker would have broken down so soon after purchase



Maybe not but 'if' it did what would of the after sales been like  and at the end of the day it did start working fine again I just happen to have two controllers now


----------



## Zeus.

Thought a little update was due seeing its been 3 years since I started the DSM.

Liquid Cardon (LC) has been stopped for two reasons
1. Ran out of LC and have been reducing the LC dose for some time.
2. Wanted to use the LC auto dosser for dossing Fe EDDHA

I have been dosing Fe DTPA in my custom trace mix and with it being light sensitive I've also been dosing Fe EDDHA manually, so the plan is to dose the Fe EDDHA only via one auto doser and dose the trace mix without the Fe DTPA. Im dosing the Fe EDDHA so the water keeps a very light pink tinge to the water and I will be watching my Pogostemon helferi as it does seem very Fe sensitive in my tank see pic below as I've played around with different Fe ppm doses





So when the Pogostemon helferi stays green the tanks weekly Fe ppm dose is enough.

The carpet looks great but close up its full of Ricca Moss the dark variant. I think it stays that colour if it doesn't get enough light




Its a PITA to keep under control and many hours have been spent controlling it, carpet could do with a trim

Bolbitis Heuelotii is doing well in places and taking over a bit but looking good mainly and others its turning black on the leaf tips as if burn think it may be due to my hard water ( @ceg4048 might tell me off for blaming hard water)







Hygrophila pinnatifida my real nemesis is still getting pinholes in old leaves and melting - but growing well otherwise if that makes sense looking fine again from a little distance






Cryptocoryne parva has grown back well after cutting well back to the substrate.




Blyxa Japonica is just about hanging on but not thriving.

Microsorum pteropus 'Trident' is doing well if not too well as its right up to the glass in places and with it being so bushy it hard to get the dying leaves- think a hard trim is coming soon




Fissidens fontanus is in need of a hard trim also

Anubias nana has taken over the hardscape and thinking off stripping most of it off and starting again with the best bits as its quite layered/deep in places

Hydrocotyle verticillata does very well in tank and gets a hard trim back quite regularly.

Pearl weed is just rammed into a large space till it just holds and when it starts to take over i rip it all out and ram another small section beck in




Amano population seems to be slowly decreasing so will get another batch soon, RCS doing well.

Also added half a dozen MTS to complement the snail population and air the substrate a bit 

Putting off most of trimming till after Xmas and also will take some time on top of the routine maintenance

Caught this little guy hiding whilst doing a WC a bit back- shame its slightly out of focus





But never seem to find enough time to do some things 

Selection of other tank shots as well below.


----------



## Tim Harrison

Looking good


----------



## Edvet

Somehow i feel a real hard trim would be beneficial.


----------



## Andrew Butler

I think this shows an aquarium that lasts (3 years) can look brilliant and not conform with the competition style aquariums many people try to achieve. A 'normal' planted aquarium that's a pleasure to just watch.


----------



## Dadofthree

Hi Zeus.hope your well mate i think it looks a mess you should be ashamed of yourself letting it grow so much it needs a massive trim and send all the left over bits to me ha ha


----------



## MossMan

Really lovely tank. how do people go about remembering all the plant names? I have to try and learn what I have so that I can get more from this hobby - but really struggle with remembering whats what! Anyhows, love the tank!


----------



## Zeus.

Have been struggling with Hygrophila pinnatifida, Blyxa Japonica and Ceratopteris thalictroides with the plants not doing very well at all and getting worse, Bolbitis Heuelotii having old parts of leaves going black and hard and carpet struggling a bit after a big trim Hm............ is it my hard water !!!!!! But plants was telling me something and it was getting worse 













So had been thinking about Nickel for a while! had already checked my water report from the supplier and it quoted 0.020mg/L Ni. which should be enough, but the report was 2018. So got some Nickel II Sulphate Hexahydrate ordered had a pm with @X3NiTH ran though the maths etc sorted out the dose then ran though my DIY Trace dose mix. I had started doing my own trace DIY mix some time back as I was getting an Fe deficiency so started using Fe DTPA and Fe EDDHA and made up the rest with various compounds from Solufeed and from the net. Thats where the mistake/error was made on my part 

The salts from solufeed was quoted in percentages eg Fe 13% EDDHA so to work out the mg/L add say 10g to one Litre of water results in 1.3g Fe. per litre so concentrate solution was 1300 mg/L Fe. or 1300ppm Fe. which is correct.

The ERROR came from the other salts eg Boric acid (aka ant killer) and Molybdenum Ammonium Heptamolybdate which would supply the nutrients Boron (B.) and Molybdenum (Mo.) which was both pure so 100%, so both pure and theres my error pure compounds not pure elements  only been using the mix about a year 
Take it things got slowly worse as the AS reserve of these elements runs out and so does and root tabs that may have been supplying the elements. Plus different plants will have different threshold levels which they can cope with OFC

So checked my maths 

*Molybdenum Ammonium Heptamolybdate* -
(NH4)6Mo7O24 · 4H2O 
Relative Molecular Mass (RMM) - 1236 g/mol
Molybdenum (Mo.) mass (in compound) 672 or 54.37% of RMM of compound/salt

*Boric Acid*
H3BO3
Relative Molecular Mass (RMM) - 61.9 g/mol
Boron Mass (in compound) -10.8 or 17.44% of RMM of compound/salt

*Nickel II Sulphate Hexahydrate*
NiSO4. 6H2O
Relative Molecular Mass (RMM):262.85 g/mol
Nickel (Ni) mass 58.9 or 22.3% of RMM of compound/salt 

Worked out/checked the dilution ratios to tank volume to target weekly ppm (mg/L)

So the Mo. dose was 45% below my target dose, However my Boron was 17% was target dose

So happy chappy  ATM as I have stumbled across an error which can account for the symptoms of the plants. Increased my Fe EDDHA only last week also.

Gave the tank the daily B. dose at WC extra this week 

Tempted to add some root tabs, however I would rather wait and see if the 'new' micro mix does the job as plants should start to improve.

Wait and see...................


----------



## Ady34

Will be interesting to see the results in a few weeks. I always seem to struggle with that vibrancy and strength within plants, I have never been completely happy but don’t have the brainpower to tackle it so end up sticking with slightly substandard health and growth and also easy plants too. I need to experiment more with fertilisers really to try and pinpoint the problems.
Hopefully the maths in your case will make the difference.....


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Zeus. said:


> Worked out/checked the dilution ratios to tank volume to target weekly ppm (mg/L). So the Mo. dose was 45% below my target dose, However my Boron was 17% was target dose





Zeus. said:


>





Zeus. said:


> I had started doing my own trace DIY mix some time back as I was getting an Fe deficiency so started using Fe DTPA and Fe EDDHA and made up the rest with various compounds from Solufeed and from the net.


That is interesting, and spectacularly chlorotic .

<"What about manganese"> (Mn)? It isn't plant mobile and its deficiency causes chlorosis in hard water. Very high Fe:Mn ratios can also effect Mn++ ion uptake.

Molybdenum (Mo) definitely isn't mobile within the plant either, but (in soils) deficiencies tend to occur in acid conditions. I'm not aware of having ever seen molybdenum deficiency, but even if I have I would have assumed it was an iron (Fe) issue.

Boron (B) deficiency occurs in new leaves in most plants (B is mobile in a few plants) but mainly under alkaline conditions. I don't think it causes chlorosis however.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Zeus.

Ady34 said:


> Will be interesting to see the results in a few weeks



Yes it will be  

I was using the same Micro mix on both my tanks but with this one I have been adding Fe EDDHA only recently and just adding Fe DTPA to the Micro mix for my 50L. It was Friday I realised my Boo Boo so added some extra Boron straight away to both tanks and sorted the micro mix out later, My in 50L the plants do seem to have had a sudden improvement in their colour along with the Fe DTPA 0.6 ppm Fe. weekly dose.
There does also seem a slight improvement in 500l too but that does only get a weekly dose of Fe EDDHA of 0.35 ppm Fe. as it can get quite pink
Or could be _emperor's_ new _clothes_ syndrome  




dw1305 said:


> That is interesting, and spectacularly chlorotic .



Yes Blyxa Japonica has been getting slowly worse since I put it in the big tank, it was in the 50L for some time where it was OK at the time but not amazing



dw1305 said:


> <"What about manganese"> (Mn)?



been adding 16.8 grams Solufeed Mn 13 EDTA ( 2.184g Mn.) to 100ml RO water to make concentrate 21840 mg/L Mn. Then adding 10ml of concentrate ( 218.4 mg Mn.) to 1000ml dosing bottle 218.4mg/L Mn.  Then dosing a 500L tank 100ml (21.8mg Mn.) x3 a week to yield 0.131 ppm Mn. ( 21.8mg / 500L x 3) and 0.35ppm Fe. weekly


----------



## Zeus.

Early days but the tank didn't seem to have the slightest hint of pink at all on monday which was the day it gets its dose of Fe EDDHA and some off the Anubis looked like it was also Fe deficient also !!!

So my thoughts are that the low dose of Mo.& B. was limiting plant growth and the demand for Fe. was low , know that the Mo. and B. levels are better the tanks requirement of Fe. has increased - hence no pink tinge. Gave it some extra Fe on monday and increased the Fe EDDHA auto dose amount to suit and today the tank water has a slight pink tinge again


----------



## Kevin2016

Unbelievable how you're carpet grows. I have lilaeopsis novae-zelandiae (easier one) but my carpet doesn't grow that fast/well.
Probably the DSM method works very well


----------



## Zeus.

Three week update on possible Boron and Molybdenum deficiency.

Winners and losers as off earlier this week

Pogostemon helferi has never looked better in the tank (not the best pic)




But Hygrophila pinnatifida worse than ever.




So got me thinking about Ca:Mg ratios I had been reading a bit about for some time but not paying full attention Magnesium in tap water

So basically (full details in linked thread) Jumped on the Ca:Mg ratio wagon increased [Mg] to 4:1 so had 33ppm Mg then read more and jumped off the Ca:Mg wagon. Triple 50% WC today to bring [Mg] to below 10ppm.

I had made an error in calculating the Mg I was adding and was dosing the tank about 5ppm Mg per week for quite some time, So think I converted a Fe deficiency into a Mg deficiency which took its time to show as the tank slowly lost its [Mg] as my tap water has 5ppm Mg so was getting 2.5ppm Mg with every 50% water change then only adding 3ppm Mg with macros 

Hygrophila pinnatifida today after WCs looks worse than ever





So got some top grade Hygrophila pinnatifida coming from @Konrad Michalski as mine looks like it has passed an easy recovery


----------



## Konrad Michalski

Where did you get those from? It would be really hard to destroy them like that if they were from submersed growth. Unless you treated them with liquid carbon.


----------



## Zeus.

Konrad Michalski said:


> Where did you get those from? It would be really hard to destroy them like that if they were from submersed growth. Unless you treated them with liquid carbon.



Had them for well over a year, been struggling with them for quite some time with good and bad times M8, but think I may have found the what the latest issue is


----------



## Mr.Shenanagins

Just looked through your thread Zeus, impressive growth from when you started. I like your daytime/nighttime comparisons they looked like two different tanks! I’m not sure if it was C. Helferi or something similar you had early on but it added a nice contrast Why did you remove it? Regardless It looks great, how about some new pictures of the scape?


----------



## Zeus.

Mr.Shenanagins said:


> I like your daytime/nighttime comparisons they looked like two different tanks!



Yes I do like the low light viewing periods esp with only one kessil on at a time 



Mr.Shenanagins said:


> C. Helferi or something similar you had early on but it added a nice contrast Why did you remove it?



Yes C. Helferi , I liked it lots too, but it grows from the base of the plant so when the tips get old and damaged they become an algae magnet, trimming tips off just leads to aglae on tips due to damage with trimming  don't hing you see many 'old' tanks with it in for that reason.



Mr.Shenanagins said:


> Regardless It looks great,



Thank you 



Mr.Shenanagins said:


> how about some new pictures of the scape



Keep thinking of doing some, however tank took a bit of an  hit with no CO2 due to 'locked down', nothing major, CO2 back on recently. Also treating tank ATM to get rid of Riccia ATM as its everywhere!!!. Plus have been busy with the Fert Calculator development as well. So lots to do and never enough time to do it all.


----------



## Melll

Thank you for logging the journey.   An interesting read, especially about using spray bars on FX6 then swapping to the maxspec gyre x 2, which I just happen to have one of  I shall now drink coffee and think thoughts 🤓


----------



## Zeus.

Nothing last forever and its all about the Journey not the destination, so we are on the move house goes on market very soon and already have another dwelling in the process of being sorted to move into. What I will do with the present setup I'm unsure about ATM, as lots to do in new house. Considering lots of options. I have had to fit my tank hood completely as it tidies up my makeshift shift kessil hangers so better for viewings, Maintenance should be too bad me thinks in the meantime.  Thought I would share the living room pic with you folk.


----------



## Jayefc1

Oh mate hope you don't have to take the tank down its a inspiration to many ukaps members living room looks lovely with the great green divider


----------



## Wolf6

Good luck with the new house  Awesome journal and journey it was! And once you are all settled in, the aquascapingbug will return full force, no worries ;P


----------



## Filip Krupa

Zeus. said:


> Nothing last forever and its all about the Journey not the destination, so we are on the move house goes on market very soon and already have another dwelling in the process of being sorted to move into. What I will do with the present setup I'm unsure about ATM, as lots to do in new house. Considering lots of options. I have had to fit my tank hood completely as it tidies up my makeshift shift kessil hangers so better for viewings, Maintenance should be too bad me thinks in the meantime.  Thought I would share the living room pic with you folk.View attachment 156534


good luck with the move! 
nothing more stressfull.

You just need to get a bigger tank in your new place! xD


----------



## Tim Harrison

Good luck Karl


----------



## Paul27

Zeus. said:


> Nothing last forever and its all about the Journey not the destination, so we are on the move house goes on market very soon and already have another dwelling in the process of being sorted to move into. What I will do with the present setup I'm unsure about ATM, as lots to do in new house. Considering lots of options. I have had to fit my tank hood completely as it tidies up my makeshift shift kessil hangers so better for viewings, Maintenance should be too bad me thinks in the meantime.  Thought I would share the living room pic with you folk.View attachment 156534



I'm going to take a guess that your favourite position to sit on your sofa is the left hand side (facing the tv). Its a beautiful tank and something you should be proud of with what you have accomplished with it.


----------



## Zeus.

Thanks all for your kind words and likes , makes the journey so much worth while.

Bigger open top tank is on the cards size of which will be room dependant, open top is the dream as as been looking at a mechanical heat exchange systems for house already, the lighting system will be suspended for ease of maintenance, RO water on the cards as house has a boar hole for water so no relative cost for water usage and old tank water to feed the garden/vegetable patch. Thinking of going down the inert substrate route also for cost and longevity of substrate as the results in my pot scape with inert substrate have been good so far. Using Urea as source of nitrogen has gone well also in both my current tanks using many small doses per day, not just for cost but to see if it can be done. Doing the fert calculator has highlighted to me the fact that Tropicas ferts are mainly urea based ( as is Mighty Brighty 'N') and although using urea has its potential issues I think the multiple daily dosing with auto doser overcomes these issues - my Pot scape is dosed about 100 small doses a week.

On the lookout for some more tanks ATM eBay's bargains which will make the move easier IMO.

Zeus.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


Zeus. said:


> although using urea has its potential issues I think the multiple daily dosing with auto doser overcomes these issues - my Pot scape is dosed about 100 small doses a week.


I'd just be paranoid about a pump malfunction dumping a large amount of urea in the tank. In the short term it wouldn't be like a CO2 dump (<"urea has very low toxicity to fish">), it would just depend how quickly the ammonia was liberated, and how much was mopped up by the plants and filter. I couldn't find any exact figures other than this "_conversion is dependent on temperature, time, and microbial population density_". I'd also add pH.


Zeus. said:


> Doing the fert calculator has highlighted to me the fact that Tropicas ferts are mainly urea based ( as is Mighty Brighty 'N')


Yes, cheap to buy, very soluble, not a potential explosive and only adds nitrogen (N) to the mix. Because these are dilute mixes already the chance of an over-dose is much reduced.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Zeus.

dw1305 said:


> I'd just be paranoid about a pump malfunction dumping a large amount of urea in the tank.



Well I did have a user error when first programming the multiple doses, ended up dosing a couple of months worth of Tropica Specialised Nutrition (TSN)clone in few days, lost no shrimp (fishless tank). Dosing 500l tank with 50% urea ATM also and no fish losses at about 50% EI dose.

The Green Machine was advising double the dose of TPN and TPN+ in the day for high tech tanks ( TPN and TPN+ have been rebranded by Tropica as TPN and TSN respectively).

But yes there is a serious risk with Urea which the user needs to be fully aware off (hence the warning we have in the fert calculator we have before it lets you use ammonium/urea based salts), bit like using a single stage solenoid and CO2 when the cylinder gets a bit low or having the DC light yellow at lights on and going on holiday for two weeks, all it takes is for a surface skimmer to not work resulting in surface scum and the [CO2] soon has the DC clear and snails climbing out of tank, only happen once in small tank- always clean your ehiem skim before holidays


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


Zeus. said:


> Well I did have a user error when first programming the multiple doses, ended up dosing a couple of months worth of Tropica Specialised Nutrition (TSN)clone in few days, lost no shrimp (fishless tank). Dosing 500l tank with 50% urea ATM also and no fish losses at about 50% EI dose.


I must admit, before today, I had no idea that urea had such a low toxicity to fish. If I'd known more about animal physiology it would have helped, but the penny should still have dropped a lot earlier. 

I've been regarding urea and ammonia (NH3) as toxic at much the same concentrations, which looking back on it that didn't really make any sense.

I'll see if I can find a salmonid urea reference. If I can, it is more likely to give us more idea of the actual level at which urea (or more correctly the ammonia from its catalysis by urease) becomes an issue.

We would still have the uncertainty surrounding ammonia uptake by plants, the amount of oxygen in the system, the amount of ammonia oxidising microbes, pH  etc.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Filip Krupa

Zeus. said:


> Bigger open top tank is on the cards size of which will be room dependant, open top is the dream as as been looking at a mechanical heat exchange systems for house already, the lighting system will be suspended for ease of maintenance


LOVE IT
+1 on mechanical ventilation with heat exchange, DIYed my own and cannot believe how good it makes the house feel. Never living without one again.
Suffice to say tank evaporation/humidity has never been an issue around the Beast


----------



## Zeus.

Filip Krupa said:


> LOVE IT
> +1 on mechanical ventilation with heat exchange, DIYed my own and cannot believe how good it makes the house feel. Never living without one again.
> Suffice to say tank evaporation/humidity has never been an issue around the Beast


Looking at lots of options from Air source to Water Source Heat Pumps (WSHP) with the heat exchange seems the future, It will be as DIY as possible. Water source heat pumps can yield x6 the imputed energy which is X2 that of Air based system, Harvesting the heat from the river would be great IMO as the high heat capacity of water would improve the heat exchange and the kinetic energy of the river would improve the efficiency as well, main issue is there isn't much demand for WSHP as need to next to body of water, someone has to push the outside of the envelope.


dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I must admit, before today, I had no idea that urea had such a low toxicity to fish. If I'd known more about animal physiology it would have helped, but the penny should still have dropped a lot earlier.
> 
> I've been regarding urea and ammonia (NH3) as toxic at much the same concentrations, which looking back on it that didn't really make any sense.
> 
> I'll see if I can find a salmonid urea reference. If I can, it is more likely to give us more idea of the actual level at which urea (or more correctly the ammonia from its catalysis by urease) becomes an issue.
> 
> We would still have the uncertainty surrounding ammonia uptake by plants, the amount of oxygen in the system, the amount of ammonia oxidising microbes, pH  etc.
> 
> cheers Darrel


, I just feel that Tropica have been selling their product for years without any issues that I am aware off, in doing the calculator the only way to clone TPN and match their [K] levels is to use ammonium/urea salts, other wise your clone nearly has 400% the [K] of TPN


----------



## SRP3006

+1 on the inspirational journal, I can remember reading through so many pages of this journal when I started out on here. Hope the move goes smoothly


----------



## jaypeecee

dw1305 said:


> We would still have the uncertainty surrounding ammonia uptake by plants, the amount of oxygen in the system, the amount of ammonia oxidising microbes, pH etc.


Hi Darrel,

I very recently completed an experiment in response to what I had read in Diana Walstad's book _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_, Nitrogen Nutrition in Aquatic Plants pp 107-112. I used a tank in which I had Java Fern and Congo Fern. No livestock. No filtration of any kind. Just flow. In an attempt to eliminate nitrifying bacteria, archaea, etc., I sterilized everything in the tank - glass panels, driftwood, plants, etc. using potassium permanganate. I even ran a UV-C sterilizer at this stage to kill off any bacteria in the water column. Then, using ammonium chloride, I raised the tank TAN (NH4 + NH3) to 1 - 1.5 mg/l (ppm). After three days, I re-measured TAN + nitrite + nitrate. Then, calculated the nitrogen ppm at the beginning and end of the experiment. Conclusion: No significant nitrogen had been taken up by the plants. Instead, despite my attempts to eliminate nitrification, it was clear that the ammonia had been oxidized to nitrite and then to nitrate!

So, whilst it may be true that some plants prefer uptake of ammonia/ammonium to nitrate, in a typical tank, the microbes are likely to be at the front of the queue.

Those were my findings but it would be good for someone else to repeat this experiment just in case my method was flawed in some way.

JPC


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


jaypeecee said:


> Conclusion: No significant nitrogen had been taken up by the plants. Instead, despite my attempts to eliminate nitrification, it was clear that the ammonia had been oxidized to nitrite and then to nitrate!


Honestly you can't conclude that. There is a huge amount of scientific literature that looks at <"TAN removal from waste water">, some using <"nitrogen labelled isotopes">. One point would be that plant nitrification is always "plant/microbe" nitrification, it is almost impossible to get a microbe free system, even in the lab. Have a look at <"_Myriophyllum aquaticum_ Constructed Wetland Effectively Removes Nitrogen in Swine Wastewater">.


jaypeecee said:


> I used a tank in which I had Java Fern and Congo Fern.


Because they are epiphytes? Duckweed (_Lemna minor_) would be more suitable, just because of its faster growth rate and aerial advantage. It would also get around any complexity offered by root/substrate interactions.

cheers Darrel


----------



## jaypeecee

Zeus. said:


> Using Urea as source of nitrogen has gone well also in both my current tanks using many small doses per day, not just for cost but to see if it can be done.


Hi @Zeus. 

The use of Urea is something that has caught my attention recently. It's obviously worked for you!

Hope your move goes to plan.

JPC


----------



## jaypeecee

dw1305 said:


> Honestly you can't conclude that.


Hi Darrel,

It's neither what I expected nor what I had wanted to be the outcome. That's why I invite others to repeat the experiment - perhaps with faster-growing plants. Then, I guess the end result may well be different. 


dw1305 said:


> ...it is almost impossible to get a microbe free system, even in the lab



And that is what my experiment demonstrates.

JPC


----------



## jaypeecee

dw1305 said:


> Because they are epiphytes? Duckweed (_Lemna minor_) would be more suitable, just because of its faster growth rate and aerial advantage. It would also get around any complexity offered by root/substrate interactions.


Hi Darrel,

I forgot to mention that there was no substrate in my setup.

JPC


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


jaypeecee said:


> It's neither what I expected nor what I had wanted to be the outcome. That's why I invite others to repeat the experiment - perhaps with faster-growing plants. Then, I guess the end result may well be different.


I honestly don't know what happened to the ammonia you had added. It may have undergone nitrification etc. , but there are all sorts of questions. Did you start with RO water? If you did? What other nutrients did you add to it? etc.

If a study has been published as a peer reviewed scientific paper, then it is likely to be much more accurate and much more rigorous than anything that I could accomplish.

It is a bit like the <"Archaea papers">, I can't independently verify them, if you like it is a "faith position", based on a faith on the <"scientific method">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @dw1305

I am in little doubt that the ammonia had undergone nitrification. Hence the measurable nitrite and nitrate after a few days. I used remineralized rainwater. Conductivity was ~200microS/cm. To this I added 0.3 ml of Flourish Fe, 0.4 ml of Flourish P and 0.8 ml of Flourish Trace. Alkalinity was 2.5 dKH and General Hardness was 3.5 dGH. I didn't measure pH as my pH probe was out of action.


dw1305 said:


> If a study has been published as a peer reviewed scientific paper, then it is likely to be much more accurate and much more rigorous than anything that I could accomplish.


As a (retired!) scientist myself, I always refer to peer-reviewed papers, when available (and preferably free). That's why my Dropbox is bursting at the seams with them! But, the research that has been carried out on ammonium uptake by plants doesn't invalidate my results, or does it? OK, I don't have thousands of pounds of analytical equipment but it's not necessary to measure TAN, NO2- and NO3- to +/- 2% accuracy in the experiment that I have conducted.

In short, I would like to repeat this experiment sometime using fast-growing plants. Unfortunately, I am unable to nip out to my local MA during the current pandemic. And I haven't seen any members of the local aquarist society since February of this year - so I can't nab some plants from them. I also have in mind including Urea in the ferts mixture. Like yourself, I hadn't realized how non-toxic this is to fish.

JPC


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


jaypeecee said:


> But, the research that has been carried out on ammonium uptake by plants doesn't invalidate my results, or does it?


No, it definitely doesn't invalidate your result, whatever happens you have contributed to the sum of human knowledge. If people try similar experiments, and come up with similar results, then we know that our present view of ammonia uptake in plant/microbe systems isn't right.


jaypeecee said:


> As a (retired!) scientist myself,





jaypeecee said:


> I am in little doubt that the ammonia had undergone nitrification.


But that is really the point, I'm <"always in doubt, about pretty much everything">. I'm not saying that you are right or wrong, but I don't think that you can conclude all that scientific work, on phytoremediation and ammonia uptake is wrong, based on your experiment. Have a look at <"Ammonium and Nitrate Uptake by the Floating Plant _Landoltia punctata_">.

As a wider point, from my point of view I don't really care where, why or how nitrification takes place, as long as <"ammonia and nitrite are removed from the aquarium rapidly"> and efficiently I'm not that bothered, what the process is. If you like, it's more the <"destination that interests me">, rather than the journey. 

I'd really like to be able to quantify all the processes that are occurring in the aquarium, but I'm not sure it is an achievable aim. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## jaypeecee

dw1305 said:


> ...I don't think that you can conclude all that scientific work, on phytoremediation and ammonia uptake is wrong, based on your experiment. Have a look at <"Ammonium and Nitrate Uptake by the Floating Plant _Landoltia punctata_">.


Hi Darrel

Oh, I didn't mean to dismiss the scientific work carried out on phytoremediation and ammonia. Sorry if I gave that impression. No, no, thrice no! I bow down to their superior knowledge and research excellence. I just did a simple experiment and made a few measurements. I wasn't expecting to detect any nitrite or nitrate. In my naivety, I was expecting the plants to gobble up the ammonium but that didn't happen.

I will check out the paper you referenced. In fact, I think I already have a copy.

JPC


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


jaypeecee said:


> In an attempt to eliminate nitrifying bacteria, archaea, etc., I sterilized everything in the tank - glass panels, driftwood, plants, etc. using potassium permanganate. I even ran a UV-C sterilizer at this stage to kill off any bacteria in the water column. Then, using ammonium chloride, I raised the tank TAN (NH4 + NH3) to 1 - 1.5 mg/l (ppm). After three days, I re-measured TAN + nitrite + nitrate. Then, calculated the nitrogen ppm at the beginning and end of the experiment. Conclusion: No significant nitrogen had been taken up by the plants. Instead, despite my attempts to eliminate nitrification, it was clear that the ammonia had been oxidized to nitrite and then to nitrate!





jaypeecee said:


> I just did a simple experiment and made a few measurements. I wasn't expecting to detect any nitrite or nitrate. In my naivety, I was expecting the plants to gobble up the ammonium but that didn't happen.


What was the nitrate measurement at the end of the experiment (or the combined NO2 + NO3 levels)?  I can't see a mechanism for nitrification, but that doesn't mean that I'm not missing something.

cheers Darrel


----------



## jaypeecee

dw1305 said:


> What was the nitrate measurement at the end of the experiment (or the combined NO2 + NO3 levels)? I can't see a mechanism for nitrification, but that doesn't mean that I'm not missing something.


Good afternoon, Darrel

The nitrate figure at the end of the experiment was 5 - 15 ppm, nitrite was 1 ppm. Starting ammonia (TAN) was 1 - 1.5 ppm and remaining ammonia (TAN) was 0.4 ppm. And this took place over just 28 hours at 24C water temperature. The tank was illuminated during the day. When I totted up the nitrogen concentrations before and after the experiment, the plants didn't appear to have taken up any of the nitrogen compounds. BTW, what did you mean by "I can't see a mechanism for nitrification"? Doesn't it just suggest that there were sufficient nitrifying bacteria and/or Archaea in the tank throughout the experiment?

Finally, I must apologize to @Zeus. , the OP of this thread for this detour.

JPC


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 
Afternoon John,  my apologies to Karl as well.


jaypeecee said:


> The nitrate figure at the end of the experiment was 5 - 15 ppm, nitrite was 1 ppm. Starting ammonia (TAN) was 1 - 1.5 ppm and remaining ammonia (TAN) was 0.4 ppm.


Curiouser and curiouser.  I don't know if @alto has any thoughts?

Could you try it again at without remineralizing the rain-water? I might add a dash of white vinegar (or Vit C./Citric acid) as well, that should ensure the pH is below pH7 and all the TAN is plant available as ammonium ions (NH4+). It  should also <"inhibit traditional nitrifiers"> (although possibly not all the Archaea). 

From <"EPA - Nitrification"> we have:

NH3 + O2 → NO2 - + 3H+ + 2e- 
NO2 - + H2O → NO3 - + 2H+ +2e- 

That shows that it is a conversion of one molecule of NH3 to one molecule of NO3 and that we can ignore RMM and % N etc. 

We've ended up with a lot more nitrogen than we started with? So the source of the extra nitrate must be the plants? I can imagine there might have been some cell damage from the potassium permanganate (KMnO₄) treatment, and a leakage of protein rich chlorophyll etc. 


jaypeecee said:


> Doesn't it just suggest that there were sufficient nitrifying bacteria and/or Archaea in the tank throughout the experiment?


It does, but assuming that your sterilization worked, where did they come from, from the rain-water? Nothing suggests that they can re-colonize anything like that quickly. Could you boil the rainwater before use?

cheers Darrel


----------



## Witcher

jaypeecee said:


> Then, calculated the nitrogen ppm at the beginning and end of the experiment. Conclusion: No significant nitrogen had been taken up by the plants.


Hey @jaypeecee for how long did you conducted that experiment? Were the water conditions in original tank (where the plants were coming from) identical with the test tank? And if not, did your plants had a chance to re-program their enzymes to different conditions (which in the effect could delay or stop N intake for some time)?



jaypeecee said:


> The nitrate figure at the end of the experiment was 5 - 15 ppm


10ppm in "unknown" area seems to be quite a lot, what Nitrate test you've been using for that?


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi Darrel,

Thanks very much for your valued observations and comments. Here are my initial thoughts:



dw1305 said:


> Could you try it again at without remineralizing the rain-water?


Yes, that is certainly possible. What would the advantage of that be?


dw1305 said:


> I might add a dash of white vinegar (or Vit C./Citric acid) as well, that should ensure the pH is below pH7 and all the TAN is plant available as ammonium ions (NH4+).


Yes, good point. I was very annoyed being unable to use my pH meter.


dw1305 said:


> It should also <"inhibit traditional nitrifiers"> (although possibly not all the Archaea).


That would mean a pH in the range 5 - 5.5. Agreed?


dw1305 said:


> That shows that it is a conversion of one molecule of NH3 to one molecule of NO3 and that we can ignore RMM and % N etc.


Yes, that makes things much simpler.


dw1305 said:


> We've ended up with a lot more nitrogen than we started with?


Yes, particularly if the nitrate was more like 15 ppm, instead of 5 ppm.


dw1305 said:


> It does, but assuming that your sterilization worked, where did they come from, from the rain-water? Nothing suggests that they can re-colonize anything like that quickly.


Yes, agreed. I may just cycle the tank water through the UV-C sterilizer for 24 hours beforehand. It's easier than boiling 12 litres of water. Unfortunately, I can't be sure that my attempt at sterilizing with KMnO4 was 100% effective.

JPC


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @Witcher



Witcher said:


> Hey @jaypeecee for how long did you conducted that experiment?



Just 28 hours as reported here. But, I'd tried it once before. Doing the experiment is a learning experience in itself. As I dug more and more into it, I was trying to refine the experiment as I progressed with it.

JPC


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @Witcher 



Witcher said:


> 10ppm in "unknown" area seems to be quite a lot, what Nitrate test you've been using for that?



I was using the JBL NO3 Test Kit.

JPC


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


jaypeecee said:


> Yes, that is certainly possible. What would the advantage of that be?





jaypeecee said:


> That would mean a pH in the range 5 - 5.5. Agreed?


Yes just to keep the pH below pH7 and make sure all the TAN was as NH4+, it would stop it degassing and it would ensure that the ammonium ion was plant available. The other advantage would be that it may limit microbial nitrification, even if some microbes survived the initial treatment, 

cheers Darrel


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi Everyone,

The reason I did this experiment? I got quite excited at the prospect of running a tank without a biological filter*. As this is churning out nitrate, which the plants don't really want (preferring ammonium), it got me thinking. If the plants prefer ammonium, isn't this what we should provide for them? But, what about the fish? They're not going to be happy with ammonium if the water pH is much above 7.5 at which point the ammonium (NH4+) is converted to free, toxic ammonia gas (NH3).

And I'm still thinking but I'm wondering if the use of urea is one possible solution? At which point, I'm leaning on @dw1305, @alto, @zozo, and everyone else for their thoughts.

* i.e. an actual physical piece of equipment

JPC


----------



## Zeus.

jaypeecee said:


> Finally, I must apologize to @Zeus. , the OP of this thread for this detour.


No problems m8, some threads/journal just end up having detours here and there, it happens


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


jaypeecee said:


> I got quite excited at the prospect of running a tank without a biological filter


Have a look at @Bart Hazes <"posts">.


jaypeecee said:


> And I'm still thinking but I'm wondering if the use of urea is one possible solution?


The "Miracle-Gro", (from the <"It's very Green thread">), perks the plants up pretty instantly. <"I guess it is the urea"> content, but I don't actually know.


dw1305 said:


> Looking at the ingredient list, it looks pretty good, especially for a <"relatively cheap product"> (if the link stops working that was less than £5 for a kilogram).





dw1305 said:


> Ingredients: Total Nitrogen (N) (24%) (Ammoniacal Nitrogen (3.5%), Urea Nitrogen (20.5%), Available Phosphate (P2O5) (8%), Soluble Potash (K2O) (16%), Boron (B) (0.02%), Copper (Cu) (0.07%), Water Soluble Copper (Cu) (0.07%), Iron (Fe) (0.15%), Chelated Iron (Fe) (0.15%), Magnesium (Mn) (0.05%), Chelated Manganese (Mn) (0.05%), Molybdenum (Mo) (0.0005%), Zinc (Zn) (0.06%), Water Soluble Zinc (Zn) (0.06%).
> Derived from Ammonium Sulfate, Potassium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Urea, Urea Phosphate, Boric Acid, Copper Sulfate, Iron EDTA, Manganese EDTA, Sodium Molybdate, and Zinc Sulfate.
> Other than not being suitable for aquariums because of the urea/ammonium the only thing "wrong" would be the low magnesium content, which could be very easily rectified by adding some (equally cheap) "Epsom Salts".



cheers Darrel


----------



## Zeus.

Ran the maths and for a 1g dose per 100Litres







Packs plenty of 'N' little low in Mg,K,Fe and Mo compared to other high tech regimes


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


Zeus. said:


> Packs plenty of 'N' little low in Mg,K,Fe and Mo compared to other high tech regimes


I assume it was <"developed for the USA">. If I wanted to create a fertiliser that produced a pretty instant greening response, it would be something with a lot of nitrogen, and probably in the form of urea, to reduce the risk of <"fertiliser burn"> in terrestrial plants.

My guess is that is why <"Tropica, ADA etc"> use urea as their nitrogen (N) source, <"it only adds N">, it is cheap to buy, non-toxic at low doses, doesn't burn and gives you a quick greening response.

From my point of view its main benefit would be the colour, <"quick response"> and <"cheapness">.


dw1305 said:


> I've been mixing enough into a two litre milk carton to give me a light sky blue tint and watering the house plants with it. I've also sloshed a little bit into the tanks. I'm not recommending this, and it isn't very scientific, but so far so good.


My plants are <"~always nitrogen deficient"> so if I don't get a pretty instant greening I know that another element (<"most likely magnesium (Mg)"> or iron (Fe) is <"Liebig's limiting nutrient">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## jaypeecee

dw1305 said:


> The "Miracle-Gro", (from the <"It's very Green thread">), perks the plants up pretty instantly. <"I guess it is the urea"> content, but I don't actually know.


Hi @dw1305 & Everyone,

I would like to try using _Miracle-Gro All Purpose_ liquid fertilizer in a planted tank with no livestock. Its nitrogen composition is as follows:

Urea Nitrogen    3.5%
Nitric Nitrogen   1.7%
Ammoniacal Nitrogen   1.8%
The recommended dose of this product is 15ml/litre of water for horticultural use. Can anyone help me determine the correct dose to use in my planted tank?

Thanks in advance.

JPC


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi Folks,

Subsequent to the above post, I discovered this:

Nitrogenous Fertiliser - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics

JPC


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


jaypeecee said:


> I would like to try using _Miracle-Gro All Purpose_ liquid fertilizer in a planted tank with no livestock. Its nitrogen composition is as follows:
> 
> Urea Nitrogen 3.5%
> Nitric Nitrogen 1.7%
> Ammoniacal Nitrogen 1.8%
> The recommended dose of this product is 15ml/litre of water for horticultural use.


I'd probably go on the 7% total nitrogen. so that is approx. 0.07g (or 70 mg) in 1 mL of liquid fertiliser. 

Milligrams per litre (mg/L) and ppm are equivalent measurements so 1 mL of fertiliser in 1 litre is equivalent to 70ppm and 1 mL in 10 litres = 7ppm. That is probably a bit conservative, so 2 mL in 10 litre would give you 14ppm.

You would need to work out how much of each of the other nutrients you are adding, based upon the 2 mL per 10 litre dosing. Phosphorus (P) content will be quoted as <"P2O5 and potassium (K) as K2O">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @dw1305,

Many thanks for your feedback.

That seems pretty straightforward.

JPC


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @dw1305 and everyone,

On second thoughts, I think _Miracle-Gro All Purpose_ liquid fertilizer is possibly not such a good idea - phosphorus (P) is 1.3% and potassium (K) is 4.2%. These figures are high when compared with, for example, _Tropica Specialised Nutrition_ for which the corresponding figures are 0.1% and 1.03%, respectively. I suspect that the high proportion of phosphorus in _Miracle-Gro_ may promote algae and that the proportion of potassium wouldn't go down well with fish. Although I wasn't planning to have any livestock in this test tank, I may as well save myself some time and choose an alternative to Miracle-Gro.

It is always possible that I have made an error in my reasoning above as most of my grey matter is exhausted! I'll check it over again tomorrow.

JPC


----------



## ForestDave

Zeus. said:


> well would say 'nature' but not aiming at a style 'per sa' just doing it as I like.
> 
> The list of plants 'Gaz' at TGM thought suitable was, got my markers ready
> 
> Cyperus hefferi
> View attachment 94931
> Staurogyne repens
> View attachment 94932
> Alternathera reinideri 'mini'
> View attachment 94933
> Micranthemum 'monte carlo'
> View attachment 94934 But not as a carpet just between some of the rocks
> Echrinodorus tennelleys (helenathsum)
> View attachment 94935
> 
> Anablas bart nano 'petite' (on wood)
> View attachment 94936
> Cryptuconyne parra
> View attachment 94937
> Linderhia tohindifulia
> View attachment 94938
> Bucepandoreia wavy green (on wood)
> View attachment 94939
> Mosses ( dribyone/weeping moss)
> View attachment 94940
> Microseruim trident
> View attachment 94941
> 
> 
> But Still think its worth getting both sides with rock that works together first place wood estimate light in areas as will be shadows too, can always adjust spacing, getting to know each rock personally :LOL:
> 
> ------------
> 
> Made a Noob mistake forgot the support for the rocks etc
> 
> eg
> 
> View attachment 94912
> 
> so got myself some porous pavers. stripped the tank except the ADA PS and bridge the PS
> 
> View attachment 100338
> 
> got myself a power planer and have been rather busy.
> 
> 
> wall panels fitted to base, QD OFC (y)
> View attachment 100339
> 
> Kessil light hanger (temp OFC) reduced height and width so can position lights in center or move six inches to enable to see the difference having eight would make to both sides. soldered and compression fitting from cache
> 
> View attachment 100342
> 
> Finding it hard to get a decent photo of hardscape as there isnt a fixed viewing position so any I take look much poorer than the naked eye , tried taking video on iphone but then the 100Mb file refused to send via email to PC complete noob at taking videos then getting them right size to publish, would read how to do it but got other things to do :LOL:. Getting close to want I'm happy with but need to take it all out to adjust the porous pavers 'maybe'. Was at LFS with son ,which had a few pieces of sieryu stone which had my name on them too .
> 
> Still a way off before critique time


Hi Zeus. 
I've been scouring your brilliant journal and am in the last phases of my tank planning stage. 
I just wanted to ask about the porous pavers, if you have a moment? I haven't seen anyone using them before but they make sense to me. Lots of videos on Youtube simply put the rocks directly on the glass but that scares me a bit.

-Is that black landscaping fabric underneath them and did you leave that in when you did the final tank build please?
-Also, did you fill the voids with aqua soil and if so has any of they all remained covered when your tank became established or been exposed here and there due to shrimp activity/general erosion?

Thanks in advance!
Dave


----------



## Zeus.

Hi Tim, and thank you for your kind words😀

The black fabric I used was to prevent the 'ADA Power Sand' (base layer) making its way up to the top of the ADA Aqua Soil (AS). I would not use ADA power sand again (as I don't think it makes any difference). Other issue I have had in another tank when I covered AS with the sae fabric then cover with gravel it worked well keeping the AS in place - until I came to move some well rooted plants, the fabric came up with the plants and reshape was needed.

The black fabric was underneath the porous pavers and yes I did leave it in. All voids was fill with ADA AS and non have been exposed over the years so the porous pavers have stopped the rocks sinking in the AS IMO

I am planning to 'rescape' tank soon as moving, it will be the same hardscape, but different substrate, an inert one and plan to use the porous pavers again and *no* fabric. Not that I would advise anyone not to use AS, I wont to see 'if' the same scape can be redone with inert substrate, so more of an experiment to see 'if' the use use of AS has any advantage with a scape that will be running for years.


----------



## ForestDave

Zeus. said:


> Hi Tim, and thank you for your kind words😀
> 
> The black fabric I used was to prevent the 'ADA Power Sand' (base layer) making its way up to the top of the ADA Aqua Soil (AS). I would not use ADA power sand again (as I don't think it makes any difference). Other issue I have had in another tank when I covered AS with the sae fabric then cover with gravel it worked well keeping the AS in place - until I came to move some well rooted plants, the fabric came up with the plants and reshape was needed.
> 
> The black fabric was underneath the porous pavers and yes I did leave it in. All voids was fill with ADA AS and non have been exposed over the years so the porous pavers have stopped the rocks sinking in the AS IMO
> 
> I am planning to 'rescape' tank soon as moving, it will be the same hardscape, but different substrate, an inert one and plan to use the porous pavers again and *no* fabric. Not that I would advise anyone not to use AS, I wont to see 'if' the same scape can be redone with inert substrate, so more of an experiment to see 'if' the use use of AS has any advantage with a scape that will be running for years.


Thank you. I really appreciate your response. It’s quite a learning curve this aquascaping lark! Can’t wait to  get started now.


----------



## ForestDave

Zeus. said:


> Hi Tim, and thank you for your kind words😀
> 
> The black fabric I used was to prevent the 'ADA Power Sand' (base layer) making its way up to the top of the ADA Aqua Soil (AS). I would not use ADA power sand again (as I don't think it makes any difference). Other issue I have had in another tank when I covered AS with the sae fabric then cover with gravel it worked well keeping the AS in place - until I came to move some well rooted plants, the fabric came up with the plants and reshape was needed.
> 
> The black fabric was underneath the porous pavers and yes I did leave it in. All voids was fill with ADA AS and non have been exposed over the years so the porous pavers have stopped the rocks sinking in the AS IMO
> 
> I am planning to 'rescape' tank soon as moving, it will be the same hardscape, but different substrate, an inert one and plan to use the porous pavers again and *no* fabric. Not that I would advise anyone not to use AS, I wont to see 'if' the same scape can be redone with inert substrate, so more of an experiment to see 'if' the use use of AS has any advantage with a scape that will be running for years.


I look forward to hearing how your inert substrate goes. Be interesting to see how your dosing compares.


----------



## EA James

Evening @Zeus. 
Happy new year to you matey, Was just wondering how the house move is going and what your plans are with the tank moving forward? 
All the best 

James


----------



## Zeus.

EA James said:


> Evening @Zeus.
> Happy new year to you matey, Was just wondering how the house move is going and what your plans are with the tank moving forward?
> All the best
> 
> James


Happy new year too. In the waiting phase for all the searches coming back back then we should be good to go.


----------



## EA James

Zeus. said:


> Happy new year too. In the waiting phase for all the searches coming back back then we should be good to go.


Ok well fingers crossed it goes well for you. What will you do with the tank then? Complete rescape or are you going to try and save it? Be such a shame to take it down but i guess there is only one way?!


----------



## Zeus.

EA James said:


> Ok well fingers crossed it goes well for you. What will you do with the tank then? Complete rescape or are you going to try and save it? Be such a shame to take it down but i guess there is only one way?!



Thinking trim all the trident, Bolbitis etc back to rhizomes and put in smaller holding tank with low light with other plants Anubis, buce etc so will be a bit of floating jungle for few/several/many months so will need 100 to 150litre tank.
Then same scape without AS just grit/sand and start with DSM.

So basically same scape without AS and probably RO water. We have lots of plans for house which will be taking priority, so could well be some time, plus there's always the chance something comes up on the searches or the seller changes their mind about selling. Its not a deal until all the paperwork is signed and the property is ours 😬


----------



## jaypeecee

jaypeecee said:


> In my naivety, I was expecting the plants to gobble up the ammonium but that didn't happen.



Hi Folks,

I have done an interim experiment. But, I intend to do this yet again as I have managed to obtain a small quantity of high-purity urea. And, this time, I'll take on board all the useful suggestions from @dw1305. I would have included these suggestions this time around had I been successful in tracking them down. But, if I'd done a more thorough search, I would have found them. My bad.

So, the key difference this time around was the inclusion of floating plants - Amazon Frogbit, to be precise. Starting ammonium was 0.5 ppm, nitrite was 0.05 ppm and nitrate was 3 - 5 ppm. pH was 7.2. In just under 24 hours (i.e. including overnight), ammonium had dropped to < 0.05 ppm, nitrite was 0.1 - 0.2 ppm and nitrate was 5 ppm. In other words, virtually all the ammonium appears to have been taken up by the plants. The nitrifying microbes missed out this time.

JPC


----------



## Zeus.

jaypeecee said:


> In other words, virtually all the ammonium appears to have been taken up by the plants. The nitrifying microbes missed out this time.


Or maybe also the plants mopped up quite a bit of NO3 and also the nitrifying microbes converted the Ammonium to nitrite and then to nitrate so there looks like the nitrate level seem unchanged


----------



## jaypeecee

Zeus. said:


> Or maybe also the plants mopped up quite a bit of NO3 and also the nitrifying microbes converted the Ammonium to nitrite and then to nitrate so there looks like the nitrate level seem unchanged



Hi @Zeus.

Whilst it's entirely possible that the plants could absorb nitrate, I doubt that the oxidation of ammonium via nitrite to nitrate would happen in less than 24 hours. But, who knows? Based on scientific research, it has also been demonstrated that most aquarium plants preferentially take up ammonium instead of nitrite or nitrate. And this was my starting point. In her book*, Diana Walstad has a section entitled "_Aquatic Plants Prefer Leaf Uptake of Ammonium_" (pp 106 onwards). It makes for very interesting reading.

* Ecology of the Planted Aquarium

JPC


----------



## LShortman

Stunning love a room divider tank

Sent from my SM-G780F using Tapatalk


----------



## Inked_aqua

I like this alot, really interesting read


----------



## Paul Kettless

Thanks for heading me to your journal, interesting read indeed. For me the tank looks great, if a little bit too technical for me


----------



## Zeus.

Moving looks like its happening and it might be happening quick so thought it would be prudent to make a start.

Thought I would trim all the Trident and Bolbitis Heuelotii right back to the rhizome ready for ease of move and ready for next setup. As all the leaves take up lots of space, one small portion below.





Tied all the rhizomes together in batches with garden wire and weigh them down with some ceramic, then popped them back in tank. The Trident I just trimmed back to the rhizome and left it attached to the wood.
Several hours later


----------



## EA James

Zeus. said:


> one small portion below.


Small???


----------



## aquascape1987

Zeus. said:


> ready for ease of move and ready for next setup



Have you got a plan in mind for the next set up yet Zeus?

Would be interested to follow what comes after this 👍


----------



## Wookii

Sad to see this tank go man, but onwards and upwards eh! Good luck with the move.


----------



## Zeus.

aquascape1987 said:


> Have you got a plan in mind for the next set up yet



*Provisional plan*
Eradicate the Ricca Moss and pest snails
Holding tanks for plants/shrimp/fish, whilst I convert to RO water- does it make a difference
Builders sand and grit as substrate - do we need a substrate with high CEC, will an inert substrate do the job
Thinking Slate for rocks ATM, as they have no CaCO3, have a few ideas how it could be done. Slate relatively cheap also, removing the CaCO3 rocks gives control of dKH to me
Urea as main source of Nitrogen
Carpet as before, as I would like to see how well it goes in sand, I've used sand in my pot scape and it has worked quite well, same with many of the plants which didn't work out, how much was my very hard water (which has fluctuating Fe and Mn levels) Started growing some samples to DSM already.
Plus with builders sand, the detritus will above the substrate so should be easy to remove
Plan to use hidden pots for some plants, so can lift them them out for trimming/changing. Just need to work out a way of making if work so pots are hidden from the naked eye.
Open top tank, as bracing makes maintenance harder
Filters/reactors in cellar, so tank can be at level level sitting down and will make maintenance easier

Lots of ideas, plus a house to do as well. Plus how well say the DSM goes with sand may change things, so lots could change along the way.
I never got 'Olympus' to the stage I felt it was as good as it could be, with hindsight I would do different


----------



## Wookii

Zeus. said:


> *Provisional plan*
> Eradicate the Ricca Moss and pest snails
> Holding tanks for plants/shrimp/fish, whilst I convert to RO water- does it make a difference
> Builders sand and grit as substrate - do we need a substrate with high CEC, will an inert substrate do the job
> Thinking Slate for rocks ATM, as they have no CaCO3, have a few ideas how it could be done. Slate relatively cheap also, removing the CaCO3 rocks gives control of dKH to me
> Urea as main source of Nitrogen
> Carpet as before, as I would like to see how well it goes in sand, I've used sand in my pot scape and it has worked quite well, same with many of the plants which didn't work out, how much was my very hard water (which has fluctuating Fe and Mn levels) Started growing some samples to DSM already.
> Plus with builders sand, the detritus will above the substrate so should be easy to remove
> Plan to use hidden pots for some plants, so can lift them them out for trimming/changing. Just need to work out a way of making if work so pots are hidden from the naked eye.
> Open top tank, as bracing makes maintenance harder
> Filters/reactors in cellar, so tank can be at level level sitting down and will make maintenance easier
> 
> Lots of ideas, plus a house to do as well. Plus how well say the DSM goes with sand may change things, so lots could change along the way.
> I never got 'Olympus' to the stage I felt it was as good as it could be, with hindsight I would do different



Sounds good . .  though you may struggle to get slate to look natural. Lava rock is a good option, easy to work with, and also inert?


----------



## Zeus.

Wookii said:


> struggle to get slate to look natural.


----------



## X3NiTH

When I used clay pots (mini almost novelty sized) I used a tile cutter (last used to cut slate for my bathroom floor) and took the rims off and placed the bottom of the pot inside the cut rims and used black milliliput to affix them together so the base is lipped and can be held down by the substrate to stop the conical shape working its way out the substrate as it settles around the pot over time. I also used a sausage of the same black milliliput around the cut rim top of the pot and then decorated it with the same gravel used in the tank. Worked quite well (for a 35L tank hence mini pots). Crypts grew really well in them.


----------



## Wookii

Zeus. said:


> View attachment 163035


----------



## aquascape1987

All sounds good Zeus. It would have had to be now that you have set the bar with this system. Will keep a lookout for the next thread. Do you have the new tank yet or is that still to be ordered?




Zeus. said:


> I never got 'Olympus' to the stage I felt it was as good as it could be, with hindsight I would do different



I think that almost every Aquascaper always has these same sentiments, every scape they do, no matter how good it is. Perhaps just in our nature. This tank was really good and has inspired countless people on here.

I think you will get better aesthetics for your next scape with an open top as well.

Will be interested to see your design solutions for having the services in the basement and your results using inert substrate as well.

Good luck with the move mate 👍


----------



## Zeus.

Been getting ready for final drain. Thought I would save AS for another scape. So have been syphoning it out.

Amanos have been feasting on the algae that was below substrate level, they had already cleaned it up quite a bit when I got round to taking Vid - sorry about pic quality


----------



## jaypeecee

Zeus. said:


> Urea as main source of Nitrogen


Hi @Zeus. 

That reminds me - I need to update my thread that deals with Urea. In a nutshell, it hasn't been a success for me. I've decided that dissolved organics only seem to give me grief. And urea is NH2CONH2 after all.

JPC


----------



## Zeus.




----------



## X3NiTH

That’s one healthy looking plant mass, lovely root structure!

Karl the Vids not available inline without logging in to YouTube, age restricted!


----------



## Zeus.

X3NiTH said:


> Karl the Vids not available inline without logging in to YouTube, age restricted!



Think its because I called it 'mucky tank' Utube must of thought it was porn, even remade it with different name


----------



## X3NiTH

It’s probably waiting for a reviewer bod to physically watch it to de categorise it!


----------



## Zeus.

made an appeal 

Just thought - dont think U tube are aware that AS is Aqua Soil 😲, they might not be aware of this either


----------



## LondonDragon

Aquarium porn being posted on Youtube and UKAPS!!


----------



## jaypeecee

LondonDragon said:


> Aquarium porn being posted on Youtube and UKAPS!!


Hi @LondonDragon 

The mind boggles! Just don't mention fishnet stocking(s)!

JPC


----------



## Filip Krupa

Thats hilarious @Zeus.
YT at its best!


----------



## Wookii

Zeus. said:


> View attachment 164113
> made an appeal
> 
> Just thought - dont think U tube are aware that AS is Aqua Soil 😲, they might not be aware of this either



Oh dear Karl, you distributor of grotty material you! 😂🤣

Maybe YouTube were also referring to the Urban Dictionary: Murky Lake 🤢🤮


----------



## Filip Krupa

Wookii said:


> Oh dear Karl, you distributor of grotty material you! 😂🤣
> 
> Maybe YouTube were also referring to the Urban Dictionary: Murky Lake 🤢🤮


Thats hilariously disgusting!

Wont be long before any word will have some gross connection somewhere, and no speach at all will be allowed 🤣😂🤣


----------



## jaypeecee

jaypeecee said:


> That reminds me - I need to update my thread that deals with Urea. In a nutshell, it hasn't been a success for me. I've decided that dissolved organics only seem to give me grief. And urea is NH2CONH2 after all.


Hi @Zeus. and Everyone,

I finally got round to doing the deed:






						Aquarium Plant Fertilizers - Sources of Nitrogen
					

Hi all,   Much better to look at commercial specifications available in Europe: eg from Source Chemicals....  There is some discussion of this in . Personally I wouldn't use the urea intended for "de-icing", but any fertiliser grade you should be absolutely fine.   You get a lot of  using urea...



					www.ukaps.org
				




JPC


----------



## Zeus.

So tank wasn't that dirty after all
After 12 hrs



15 mins later after removing ADA Power Sand


----------



## alto

But what’s in your filter?
 (I was going to use more “active speech” but feared automated censorship)


----------



## Zeus.

alto said:


> But what’s in your filter?
> (I was going to use more “active speech” but feared automated censorship)


Yes it was in need off a 'little' clean, never had so much detritus in it, thick sludge in bottom of filter. But waited until I had 99.9% of substrate out of tank before doing it.





Have all the plants I'm keeping weigh down with ceramic rings or weighted pots, so should be easy to drop water remove plants, catch livestock buckets and bags. Move tank, fill, prime and livestock/plants back in in same day. So no more big clouds of detritus.

Still waiting on exchange, some legal 'BS' holding the process up, all being well new house will be ours this week and removers booked for Saturday. Just a little in limbo ATM as it may or may not go through this week .


----------



## Ady34

Fingers crossed Zeus.


----------



## Zeus.

Hell off a move in lots of ways with even breaking down in our Grand Voyager with a trailer on it on moving day, had to wait 4hrs to be recovered . Thought I didn't have my phone on me me as well as couldn't find it till wife rang me 🤣

But got there in the end, leg injury has slowed me down for a few months but much better and getting 'stuff' done.

Cellar floor was a bit 'not' level, but it will do for now, running tank low tech half full, no substrate and a Clone of TSN, tank maintenance wasn't great at first due to leg and filter was the worse I had ever seen it when I got round to it, gave it another clean yesterday and wasn't too bad at all.






Fitted some New CO2 reactors with details of them and vids in CO2 reactors not got venturi working yet but getting there


----------



## X3NiTH

Getting there!


----------



## ian_m

Uneven floor and big tank. Hmmm.


----------



## Zeus.

ian_m said:


> Uneven floor and big tank. Hmmm.


I checked the floor with spirt level so I new it wasn't level, but once the base was on the floor/tiles with the carpet there was no rocking at all, so was more than happy to half fill it, with no scape in I couldn't see the point in filling it. Like he said in Vid not level isn't an issue its uneven that's the issue

Need to make a solid brick base as the cellar floods at times, last year the river was high enough for a few inches of water in cellar and in 1999 the river was so high the whole base would of been underwater. Not worried about the base getting wet its more the PLC - which I intend to wall mount, I see it as I would get very little for selling the base/tank and will get more joy out of it keeping it whilst we get sorted. All the tiles on floor need taking out as well as when it floods having the floor tiled will prevent the concrete floor drying out, so lots to do.


----------



## zozo

Zeus. said:


> I checked the floor with spirt level so I new it wasn't level, but once the base was on the floor/tiles with the carpet there was no rocking at all, so was more than happy to half fill it, with no scape in I couldn't see the point in filling it. Like he said in Vid not level isn't an issue its uneven that's the issue
> 
> Need to make a solid brick base as the cellar floods at times, last year the river was high enough for a few inches of water in cellar and in 1999 the river was so high the whole base would of been underwater. Not worried about the base getting wet its more the PLC - which I intend to wall mount, I see it as I would get very little for selling the base/tank and will get more joy out of it keeping it whilst we get sorted. All the tiles on floor need taking out as well as when it floods having the floor tiled will prevent the concrete floor drying out, so lots to do.



If you want a quicky and cheaper solution you could consider Scaffolding fittings like these bellow. I once used it to place a tank on the brick floor in the bathroom, which is crooked as hell, moving ¼ inch and I could start over levelling it. But once it stands in its place and not moved again it's rock steady. This is with 1" gas pipe it stands as a house and can be levelled easily in all directions.









The best part is, it's a mobile stand that you can move around a level again at different locations. This is strong enough for a circus elephant to do tricks on it.

Later on, a moved it to the dining room and make a suit for it with some spare wood, turning it into a cabinet hiding most of the tubes.





This is the easiest and cheapest most versatile solution for aquarium stands on crooked floors. Even if you ever change the aquarium dimensions, you can reuse the fittings but change out the 1" piping accordingly.


----------



## Zeus.

zozo said:


> If you want a quicky and cheaper solution you could consider Scaffolding fittings like these bellow



I do like that idea a lot


----------



## zozo

Zeus. said:


> I do like that idea a lot


Don't know if it is cheaper than a brick stand, but I guess so, at least it's lots easier and faster to construct, movable, reusable and withstands any flooding in the cellar. If you take zinc-plated pipes a tad more expensive but then you don't even need to worry about rust prevention.


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## Wolf6

Have you made any progress as of late?


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## Zeus.

Wolf6 said:


> Have you made any progress as of late?


Son has decided he will have the tank, which works out well as the tank was purchased for a different house/location all together. Then when I am ready its time for new tank/setup


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## Zeus.

Been while so thought I would do little update on tank.

Had some springs floods and the base suffered some water damage ( more flood details/pics here)



The base soon started to show water damage/swelling, so reduced water level for a short while during the 'tidy up'. Then emptied tank/base removed/scraped base cabinet and made a short term one to put tank on



Popped tank on



Only using three Kessils at about 50% intensity 6hrs, no CO2 injection, Fluval filter only for flow with standard FX6 inlet/outlets and it gets a WC/ occasionally and a dose of a Tropica Specialised Nutrition clone - so pretty lean dosing and no  substrate. Amanos, RCS and fish all seem to be doing well with daily feeding. 

Son will be having tank when his house he is renovating is done or will make a brick base for it above flooding level the room.


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## not called Bob

I like the work platform tank stand, very post modern


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