# Fighting the BGM



## Aleman (24 Apr 2022)

I'm currently holding my own in my battle with the dreaded BGM (Blue Green Menace - aka cyanobacter), but the battle lines have been pretty static for a few weeks.

*1. Size of tank in litres.*    Nominally 305L, but after losses due to substrate and hardscape it holds 240L
*2. Age of the set - up.*        Flooded the tank in mid Jan 2022 (IIRC) after allowing the carpeting plants a dry start period
*3. Filtration.*                                Internal "Sump" type driven by a Sicce Syncra Silent 2.0 pump (2350L/Hr). Return via a spray bar
*4. Lighting and duration.*      Two Dennerle Trocal LED 120 Units with a SuperFish 74  On FULL for 6 hours with a 2 hour ramp up and down (sort off)
*5. Substrate.* Lava Rock, Neutral gravel, capped with sand. 3Kg of Bioplast Terramineral as nutrient.
*6. Co2 dosing or Non-dosing.* CO2 injected with a CO2 Art Elite SE reg controlled by JBL Proflora pH Touch controller, pH set to 6.15 with a 0.1 hysteresis. Diffused using a 20" Cerges reactor. ... Some bubbles still get through to tanks, which is good as I can see flow to all parts of tank.
*7. Fertilizers used &  Ratios.* EI Full using potassium nitrate, di potassium phosphate, and magnesium sulphate split into 14 doses over 7 days. Micros CSM+B, plus Fe EDTA
*8. Water change regime and type. *50% weekly using RO water ... remineralised to 1KH and 2GH using Aqua Source GH/KH UP balancer
*9. Plant list + When planted. *Monte Carlo, S. Repens, lillaeopsis brazillensis, Eleocharis "mini" Dry start November 2021. Sagitaria subulata, M. mattogrossesense, E. reni, E hormanii L repens "super red" Mid January 22
*10. Inhabitants.* Currently 25 Bleeding Heart Tetras, 3 (was 9) Otocinclus, Amano shrimp (was 20, but who knows  ), 2 King Koopa snails.
*11. Full tank shot & Surface Image.* 





The Clean Up Crew have pretty much dealt with the normal algae, and after reading a couple of threads here, I suspect if it was the toxicity of the BGA that did for my otos . I've got a variety of forms, from the usual Blue Green, to Black, and even brown/red. I've had some success at keeping it in check using Blue Green Stain remover, but it keeps coming back. The moss on the back wall is full of black slime, the moss on the wood brown, and the montecarlo blue green, particularly on the glass. I've been lax in getting rid of the detritus, which probably doesn't help matters. To this end I've temporarily installed a SunSun HW3000 filter full of fine foam, filter woll and floss to act as a vaccum cleaner and I stir up the detritus manually. I'm also hoping it will keep the algae in check as it has a built in UV lamp so should prevent any cells in the water column from reproducing.

BG stain remover is a stop gap while I find out a real solution. Reading @jaypeecee's thread was interesting as it threw out some well known causes, and then @Dr Mike Oxgreen added some posts there which started me thinking.

1. Flow ... Its possible I have low flow in parts of the tank
2. Maintenance ... Yeah, this was a problem, but I'm hoping to have made that simple now, and at the moment it should have helped the flow problem.
3. Low/Unstable CO2 Levels ... Unlikely as it's controlled by the pH Touch controller within +- 0.1 units of the pH determined by the KH.
4. Light too much / too high ... could be, but lets leave that as set at the moment, as I am having issues with growing red plants, and really want the Myriophyllum to grow as fast as it should do.
5. Nutrients ... could be a problem as I've only really started EI in the last 4 weeks, having fallen foul of 30 year old knowledge that nitrate and phosphate are bad, so wasn't adding nutrients on a regular basis.

At my last water change the parameters were measured, using JBL test kits
Ammonia         <0.05
Nitrite               < 0.025
Nitrate                 5
Iron                       1.5
potassium         25
phosphate         2.4

These levels have been pretty much constant over the last couple of weeks, So my Nitrate is low, but it looks as though the plants are using what I'm adding which is sufficient for the  plant mass currently, especially combined with that produced by the fish. One think @Dr Mike Oxgreen mentioned was that the nitrate to phosphate ratio was important, not just "low nitrate", mine is 2:1 and Mike says he has trouble with BGA if his drops below 5 to 1. As today is "Water Change Day" I'm thinking of adding 30ppm of ammonium nitrate, 4.62g  (in addition to carrying on with my standard nutrient doses) This would take the NO3 to PO4 ratio up to 10 to 1, which would hopefully be maintained, if it drops quickly then that has to be an indication that I'm underdosing nitrate ... yes?

Anyone got any other suggestions or think that this is a bad idea?


----------



## dw1305 (24 Apr 2022)

Hi all,


Aleman said:


> I'm thinking of adding 30ppm of ammonium nitrate, 4.62g (in addition to carrying on with my standard nutrient doses) This would take the NO3 to PO4 ratio up to 10 to 1, which would hopefully be maintained, if it drops quickly then that has to be an indication that I'm underdosing nitrate ... yes?
> 
> Anyone got any other suggestions or think that this is a bad idea?


*Don't, *It is an <"absolutely terrible idea"> and likely to kill all your fish because of the <"ammonia / ammonium addition">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Aleman (24 Apr 2022)

As it happens I haven't done it yet, as I was playing groom to* She* and her horses 

So what about adding 30ppm of a "Safe" nitrate source ... I have potassium nitrate, and I could always order Urea, indeed *She* may well have some in the chemical store at work


----------



## tam (24 Apr 2022)

It sounds like the lack of ferts and detritus build up might have been the cause. The trouble with it, is that once you have BGA just fixing the underlying issue doesn't get rid, or at least not quick. I would suggest a blackout. That should knock it back and if your fixes have addressed the root of the problem it will stay away. Black out means covering the tank to block ambient lights and leaving the lights off. I'm not a CO2 user, so perhaps someone can comment on whether they switch it off in a blackout - I would imagine so. So water change pre-blackout, removing as much trace of it manually as you can (tooth brush/syphon), then blackout for a week, and fingers crossed when you uncover it.


----------



## Aleman (24 Apr 2022)

I like the idea of a blackout, I think I'll do the water change add an additional 9.5g of KNO3, which should take the nitrate up to around 30ppm total. Then a blackout, feed the fish as normal??


----------



## MichaelJ (24 Apr 2022)

Don't mess with Ammonium Nitrate  - As Darrel said above, it will likely kill your livestock!   

Your tank is only 3 months old but obviously not mature and stable yet - it's not uncommon to have an outbreak of BGA under those circumstances (I've had it).  Look into your CO2 flow situation. Unstable and/or improper flow and distribution of CO2 and nutrients can cause this.  Lack of maintenance as well, but your 50% weekly should suffice IMO IF your WC water parameters overall matches the tank water parameters - wide swings can cause algae problems.  Also, your recent change of dosing regime could also be a trigger, but just keep it up and follow instructions for the product - perhaps front-load the weekly NPK fertilizers to your WC water - a lot of us are doing that with good results. As long you stabilize things regardless of your dosing regime - and you dont have any gross deficencies it should be fine.  In the meantime, you might want to lower your light intensity. If your tank is unstable / immature too high light intensity will just exacerbate the problem.



Cheers,
Michael


----------



## tam (24 Apr 2022)

I'm not sure I'd add add anything pre blackout as the plants aren't really going to do any growing in the dark so wont make use of it.


----------



## Aleman (24 Apr 2022)

The reason I mentioned ammonium nitrate is that the % of TAN as free ammonium at pH 6.15 and 25C is 0.078%, surely not enough to cause a livestock issue. Sure, if for some reason my pH rises to above 7 then that may well cause an issue, but with the pH Touch controller maintaining the pH, thats not likely to happen, especially during a blackout.


----------



## MichaelJ (24 Apr 2022)

Aleman said:


> The reason I mentioned ammonium nitrate is that the % of TAN as free ammonium at pH 6.15 and 25C is 0.078%, surely not enough to cause a livestock issue. Sure, if for some reason my pH rises to above 7 then that may well cause an issue, but with the pH Touch controller maintaining the pH, thats not likely to happen, especially during a blackout.


Hi @Aleman, How did you arrive at that number?  at that low pH and temperature range a Total Ammonia reading in the <1 ppm should not be a cause of huge concerns - NH3 levels, as far as I can tell, would be <0.001 ppm.. However, I think the point is that your BGA issue is, considering the immaturely of the tank, much more likely to stem from other factors than your N : P ratio... (and you can safely tweak that by other means such by using KNO3,  Mg(NO3)2 etc.).  While ratios likely have merit under different conditions (I think they do...) - such as optimizing color and healthy growth of more challenging plants when overall tank conditions are otherwise very close to ideal, fighting a prevalent BGA issue in an immature tank by tweaking ratios is ... well... akin to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. 

Cheers,
Michael


----------



## sparkyweasel (24 Apr 2022)

Aleman said:


> 3 (was 9) Otocinclus





Aleman said:


> 2. Maintenance ... Yeah, this was a problem, but I'm hoping to have made that simple now, and at the moment it should have helped the flow problem.





Aleman said:


> At my last water change the parameters were measured, using JBL test kits
> Ammonia <0.05
> Nitrite < 0.025


That all suggests to me that the tank ecosystem (in-tank and in-filter) is immature.
BGA is often associated with a build-up of organic waste.
I would increase the sze and/or frequency of water changes, at least until the tank matures.
hth


----------



## Aleman (25 Apr 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> Hi @Aleman, How did you arrive at that number?  at that low pH and temperature range a Total Ammonia reading in the <1 ppm should not be a cause of huge concerns - NH3 levels, as far as I can tell, would be <0.001 ppm.


Hi @MichaelJ, There are plenty of research papers with the data available, and calculators based on those models. This PDF is where I got the number from, the tables are badly laid out, but I think it's around page 3. I also stumbled across this article relating to the value in aquaria and ponds, this then links here. So using ammonium nitrate in my environment *should* be perfectly safe. Having said that though, It'll stay in its pot. I get what everyone is saying regarding immaturity of the tank, I'll step back and look at the big picture before microanalysing it


----------



## Zeus. (25 Apr 2022)

Aleman said:


> *3. Filtration.* Internal "Sump" type driven by a Sicce Syncra Silent 2.0 pump (2350L/Hr). Return via a spray bar


In pic you have skimmer in middle of tank, outlet to one side and lily pipe also 😵 Have you a full tank pic with the spay bar in action so we can see the surface agitation.

I had BGA in 500 litre most of the time, it was below the substrate level in a few small areas and never got out of control. Just like when you do a big maintenance and find a mass off BBA on rock hidden from normal view.


----------



## jaypeecee (25 Apr 2022)

Aleman said:


> Reading @jaypeecee's thread was interesting as it threw out some well known causes...


Hi @Aleman 

I'm pleased that you found something of interest in that thread.

I'll try to get back on UKAPS tomorrow.

Until then...

JPC


----------



## MichaelJ (26 Apr 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Aleman
> 
> I'm pleased that you found something of interest in that thread.
> 
> ...


Good to see you back my friend!

Cheers,
Michael


----------



## jaypeecee (26 Apr 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> Good to see you back my friend!


Hi @MichaelJ 

Thanks, Michael.

You could, perhaps, bring me up to date with your ORP measurements.

JPC

And, thanks also to @Aleman and @Hufsa


----------



## jaypeecee (26 Apr 2022)

sparkyweasel said:


> BGA is often associated with a build-up of organic waste.


Hi @sparkyweasel 

Yes, so it has to be minimized by filtration and/or basic maintenance.

JPC


----------



## jaypeecee (26 Apr 2022)

Aleman said:


> At my last water change the parameters were measured, using JBL test kits
> Ammonia <0.05
> Nitrite < 0.025
> Nitrate 5
> ...


Hi @Aleman 

Additional to the above, what pH figures do you have and what is your water GH and KH? In the case of pH, it would appear that it's in the range 6.15 to 7 (ish) from the following...


Aleman said:


> The reason I mentioned ammonium nitrate is that the % of TAN as free ammonium at pH 6.15 and 25C is 0.078%, surely not enough to cause a livestock issue.





Aleman said:


> Sure, if for some reason my pH rises to above 7 then that may well cause an issue, but with the pH Touch controller maintaining the pH, thats not likely to happen, especially during a blackout.



JPC


----------



## jaypeecee (26 Apr 2022)

Aleman said:


> I like the idea of a blackout...



Hi @Aleman 

A good few people go down this route - only to find that any success is short-lived. Cyanobacteria are able to survive a period of darkness.

JPC


----------



## jaypeecee (26 Apr 2022)

Aleman said:


> One think @Dr Mike Oxgreen mentioned was that the nitrate to phosphate ratio was important, not just "low nitrate", mine is 2:1 and Mike says he has trouble with BGA if his drops below 5 to 1.


Hi @Aleman 

I worked closely with "Mike" on this. The nitrate : phosphate ratio is more complex than it first appeared. No surprises there, eh! 

JPC


----------



## jaypeecee (26 Apr 2022)

Aleman said:


> Iron 1.5
> 
> phosphate 2.4


Hi again, @Aleman 

In my view, both the figures above are too high. Have they just worked out this way or are they through choice?

I think that's enough from me for today!

JPC


----------



## Aleman (30 May 2022)

Ok, so after a big clean, and a couple of water changes, the bl**dy BGM is back! So the last two days have seen me do two 50% water changes back to back, plus run my SunSun canister filter as a "vacuum cleaner" for a couple of hours while I made sure that I removed as much slime,  and detritus as I could with a gravel cleaner attached to the inflow. I can see that I'm also going to  have to cut my carpet plants back (Montecarlo and _S. Repens_). I've removed the L. brazilliensis, and will probably remove the _Eleocharis_ "mini" as well, split them up and replant. I've had enough trying to grow red plants (_A. reinekii_ , and _L. repens_), so the remains of the _Ludwigia_ will be removed, the _Alternanthera_ melted long ago, and I'll fill the space with a couple of echinoduorus ... I already have _E. horemanii_ and echinodorus "Reni" so I've decided on echinodorus "Red Diamond", which although is technically a red plant, it's similar to the Reni, which is actually growing well, if not very large ... it is a slow growing echinodorus after all.


Andy Pierce said:


> You don't have to get all mathy here about 25+25 ≈ 50.  If you do a 50% water change and think you stirred up organics/debris or whatever go ahead and immediately do another 50% water change.





Aleman said:


> Great idea, assuming the RO unit has caught up ... Actually it's more than possible, as I fill a 300L IBC container for water changes ... Remineralize and add ferts .... Hmmmm ... I might get on top of this bloody menace


I've got a question about ferts though. I use RO water for all my water changes, and remineralize to 1dKH and 2dGH. I'm following a "modified" EI regime, ( Nitrate 30ppm as KN03 and Urea 2:3, 3ppm Phosphate and 10ppm potassium as K2HP04, magnesium 10ppm as MgSO4  ), dosing the following every day (a total of 50ml each day, as 10 by 5ml doses every 2 hours - coz I can ... autodoser  )

Macro - nitrate 4.3ppm, phosphate 0.43ppm, potassium 1.43ppm, magnesium 1.43ppm  and sulphate 5.65ppm
Micro - iron 0.71, manganese 0.017, zinc 0.014, boron, 0.008, copper 0.002 and molybdenum 0.0013ppm)

125l weekly water change remineralised using MgSO4, CaSO4 and KHCO3 to hit 2dGH, 1dKH, 3:1 Ca to Mg, and 14ppm potassium.

So to my question, the autodoser is running as it should before and after the water change. When I do a big one, say two 50% WC's back to back should I add additional ferts, perhaps half a weeks dose dry dosing to restore the levels??

One other set of data that might be of use, as it shows that perhaps I'm under dosing some nutrients are my water test results.
4 dGH, 2dKH, ammonia zero, nitrite 0.069, nitrate 5, phosphate 0.6, iron zero, potassium 28. pH is set to 6.15 + or - 0.1, temperature 25C.


----------



## Hanuman (30 May 2022)

Aleman said:


> use RO water for all my water changes, and remineralize to 1dKH and 2dGH.


Unless you have specific needs I wouldn't even bother dKHing, yeah I made that word up right here, right now.
I would bump that dGH to a good 4ppm. 2ppm seems a bit low in my opinion considering you have some inverts in there.



Aleman said:


> I'm following a "modified" EI regime, ( Nitrate 30ppm as KN03 and Urea 2:3, 3ppm Phosphate and 10ppm potassium as K2HP04, magnesium 10ppm as MgSO4 ), dosing the following every day (a total of 50ml each day, as 10 by 5ml doses every 2 hours - coz I can ... autodoser


IMO, although urea can be good for plants, it is unnecessary and can expose you to problems with algae. For Mg I would go for a little less, say 6-7ppm or so, while Ca at ~ 20ppm. That would be a traditional 3:1 ratio which is pretty standard and gives a you ~4dGH. Small rule of thumb: equal amounts by weight of CaSO4 and MgSO4 equates to a 3:1 ratio.



Aleman said:


> So to my question, the autodoser is running as it should before and after the water change. When I do a big one, say two 50% WC's back to back should I add additional ferts, perhaps half a weeks dose dry dosing to restore the levels??


if you do 2 WC back to back that would equate I believe to a 75% reduction in ppm values. That is where adding ferts with ammonia/urea is tricky because you would need to add substantial amounts of ferts to recover the initial levels. If I was you, I would quit urea unless you really are using it for a specific reason, which honestly I can't see one, use only Nirates and front load all those big boys NO3, PO4, K, Mg and Ca at once at every WC. Then daily dose traces. When you front load, calculations have to be on WC volume, not tank volume obviously.



Aleman said:


> One other set of data that might be of use, as it shows that perhaps I'm under dosing some nutrients are my water test results.
> 4 dGH, 2dKH, ammonia zero, nitrite 0.069, nitrate 5, phosphate 0.6, iron zero, potassium 28. pH is set to 6.15 + or - 0.1, temperature 25C.


Test result from where? You sent your water for a lab analysis? Honestly I don't see much the point in doing that if you are using RO. But regardless, it is showing low levels of Nitrate and phosphates. Those should be higher IMO. Iron at 0 is no bueno. Potassium at 28 doesn't shock me.

My only concern with your micros is that you are using CSM+B. Can be hit or miss.

For your BGA issue, make sure you have a good oxygenation of the water. Try buying through ebay or the like some Chemiclean to give the bacterial a good slap on the face.


----------



## tam (30 May 2022)

I'd still advocate a black out, in my experience you can do a thorough clean so it looks visibly gone and you'll be back to where you started a week later.


----------



## Hanuman (30 May 2022)

In my opinion black outs do more harm than good. Plant suffer during a black out and you don’t solve the underlying issue. It’s just a temporary band aid. BGA will see a black out like a siesta on a sunny afternoon and will just come back as fast at it left. It’s best to fix the issue, give plants what they need and the rest is history.


----------



## Andy Pierce (30 May 2022)

Aleman said:


> Ok, so after a big clean, and a couple of water changes, the bl**dy BGM is back!


Well yes - you haven't changed the underlying conditions in the tank so things go back to where they were - something has to change to sort out the cause of the problem (this is also why a blackout won't work).  Everyone has to find what works for them (my current is at Estimative index - Fireplace aquarium and I'm pretty happy) but adding urea seems unusual to me and your water is very soft - is there a reason to keep the GH and KH as low as what you're aiming for?  I use Cambridgeshire tap water and per test strip the aquarium GH and KH are both ~ 17, have been for years and don't seem problematic.


----------

