# stocking levels



## ian deuchar (24 Oct 2017)

re stocking levels.I have a 125ltr tank stocked with two blue acaras one koi angel one severum one blue turq discus two honduran red points and a firemouth.I have been told i am way overstocked,but all my fish are thriving,there are no squabbles.I run two filters for 240 ltrs and my water parameters are very good 0 ammonia 0 nitrite and nitrate 20,less after a water change[50% twice a week]I have kept fish for 22years and really know my fishkeepng.So surely it is how you keep your fish and your knowledge that is important and not some arbritary figure about stocking levels.


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## roadmaster (24 Oct 2017)

Are the fish adult's?
Would be crowded affair if they are all adult size IMHO 
50 yrs at keeping the fishes.                                                  =


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## foxfish (24 Oct 2017)

I guess different folk have different perspectives about keeping fish, for me that sounds very overcrowded regardless of the fishes health but, I much prefer the peaceful & serine  look.
40 years at keeping  planted tank fishes =


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## Lindy (24 Oct 2017)

With high filtration and large water changes you can keep any number of fish in a confined space. For me it comes down to the fish having ample swimming space and room to show natural behaviour. Personally I can't  imagine what that amount of fish in 125l looks like other than very crowded and would be interested in seeing a photo. 
At the end of the day it is your choice though 


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## Keith GH (25 Oct 2017)

Ian

I have always recommended this as a very good guide.  
Please post all the results.
http://www.aqadvisor.com/

Nitrate "20"  that is very high.   What level is it 24hrs after your water changes?

I run two filters for 240 ltrs how often are they cleaned and what medium are you using?

I am no longer keeping Aquariums health reasons only, I stopped after 50 years but interested for about 75 years that is correct 75 years.

Keith


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## dw1305 (25 Oct 2017)

Hi all,





ian deuchar said:


> two blue acaras one koi angel one severum one blue turq discus two honduran red points and a firemouth.


I think you need to have a bit of a think about which cichlids you are going to keep long term, and whether you have a bigger tank to put them in. 





ian deuchar said:


> there are no squabbles


 I think it is only a matter of time. 

Personally, in 125 litres, I think you can only keep one of the pairs (and some suitable dithers), and even than the tank is a bit small for the Blue Acaras.

cheers Darrel


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## AverageWhiteBloke (25 Oct 2017)

ian deuchar said:


> re stocking levels.I have a 125ltr tank stocked with two blue acaras one koi angel one severum one blue turq discus two honduran red points and a firemouth.I have been told i am way overstocked,but all my fish are thriving,there are no squabbles.I run two filters for 240 ltrs and my water parameters are very good 0 ammonia 0 nitrite and nitrate 20,less after a water change[50% twice a week]I have kept fish for 22years and really know my fishkeepng.So surely it is how you keep your fish and your knowledge that is important and not some arbritary figure about stocking levels.



Wow that's some mixed bag. Regardless of the water parameters or how clean you keep the tank nearly all the fish in there a territorial and will at some point want their own space. I have one pair of Blue Rams in 100ltrs which depending on the mood of the male is either perfect harmony or a war zone. I can tell as soon as I walk in the house when the male is feeling feisty because virtually all the rest of the fish have disappeared and only brave coming out when food is about until the Male Ram chills his beans and they all start acting normal again, and he's only 2" long!

I try and keep fish as close to how they would live in nature as possible within reason, obviously I wouldn't try and keep 200 neon tetras in a 100ltr tank but a small shoal is enough for them to interact the way they would in a river.Fish that live in groups do so as a defence mechanism against predators based on if there's a few of them chances are they can confuse the predator by all diving about in different directions, difficult for a predator when it doesn't know which one to grab or which direction they're going in.

In the case of the solitary Discus they never end up on their own, they are either part of a group in the rainy season or paired up in land locked pools when the water level drops breeding and raising fry waiting for the rain to come again and wash all their young back into the river to start the cycle all over again. Can't imagine how stressful it must be to be on its own with something like a firemouth trying to head butt it into a corner every 5mins and no escape route.

We have to ask can it survive? Possibly. Will it be happy? No way. Best to keep your fish happy, stress leaves them open to infection and an impending early death and that's no way to keep any animal.

If these are juvenile fish you might be sitting on the edge of all out war so as Darrel says pick which species you intend to keep would be my answer and try and off load the rest would be the answer...especially that Discus.  There may be trouble ahead!


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## ian deuchar (26 Oct 2017)

Hi all,thanks for your comments.I should have mentioned that my fish are juveniles,and as they reach adult size I rehome them.I get all my stock from the same place and he is happy to rehome and supply me with new juveniles.I get my enjoyment from rearing young fish and watch them grow into healthy adults.I do not have room for a bigger tank at the moment.All replies much appreciated.Cheers.


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## roadmaster (26 Oct 2017)

Just need smaller fish such as dwarf cichlids.
Keyhole cichlids,Rainbow cichlids,apisto's, come to mind.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (26 Oct 2017)

roadmaster said:


> Just need smaller fish such as dwarf cichlids.
> Keyhole cichlids,Rainbow cichlids,apisto's, come to mind.



In that size tank I would still only recommend 1 pair or 1 male and harem of female of dwarf cichlids depending on the species. General rule of thumb I use is 1m2 per pair. They won't fight to the death but when you have two pair constantly fratching its not pleasant to watch and all your other fish tend to dissapear.


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## roadmaster (26 Oct 2017)

Five of the keyholes or rainbow cichlids (not both), would work me thinks.
Neither are noted for nor display any serious aggression from my experiences with them.
Agree with one male to several females of species mentioned, but hard to sex them as juveniles that are often sold very small.


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## Lindy (26 Oct 2017)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> In that size tank I would still only recommend 1 pair or 1 male and harem of female of dwarf cichlids depending on the species. General rule of thumb I use is 1m2 per pair. They won't fight to the death but when you have two pair constantly fratching its not pleasant to watch and all your other fish tend to dissapear.


I think Ian made it clear in his last post that he has no interest in keeping the fish long term and takes them back to the lfs when they get big. 

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## roadmaster (26 Oct 2017)

The fishes mentioned in OP's post won't have to get big before they become problematic.
They become sexually mature long before full growth is reached.(around 4 months)
Is at this time that tank dynamics will get interesting.
My money is on the Honduran red point's letting everybody else know who's in charge followed by the acara's, with the Severum and Discus being odd men out and cowering in the corner's.(although the Severum will be largest by far
Wished I had one less grey hair for everytime I hear bout folk's taking fish back when they get too big.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (26 Oct 2017)

Lindy said:


> I think Ian made it clear in his last post that he has no interest in keeping the fish long term and takes them back to the lfs when they get big.



I was replying to @roadmaster Lindy regarding keeping dwarfs. I find it doesn't really matter the size of the fish they still seem to defend a similar sized territory.


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## Lindy (26 Oct 2017)

Ah, sorry awb lol...
Roadmaster I don't like the throwaway nature of many people that have fish but to be fair to Ian at least he keep them a while. Many folk on here buy fish just to decorate a scape for a couple of months at the most. There isn't any long term commitment it seems for the majority.

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## roadmaster (26 Oct 2017)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> I was replying to @roadmaster Lindy regarding keeping dwarfs. I find it doesn't really matter the size of the fish they still seem to defend a similar sized territory.



Yes,dwarf cichlids may only defend a few centimeter's during spawning.
African's are similar with maybe only a single rock or cave.
Larger South American cichlids are a different matter,they may control half the foot print of the tank when in breeding/spawning mode.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (26 Oct 2017)

Lindy said:


> Ah, sorry awb lol...



No problem


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## roadmaster (26 Oct 2017)

Lindy said:


> Ah, sorry awb lol...
> Roadmaster I don't like the throwaway nature of many people that have fish but to be fair to Ian at least he keep them a while. Many folk on here buy fish just to decorate a scape for a couple of months at the most. There isn't any long term commitment it seems for the majority.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk



I agree completely.
Stores here have no interest in taking back fishes or adopting fishes that become too aggressive/large.
They will not waste tank space for quarantine that they could use for other fishes arriving weekly ,nor do they have an interest in spending $$ to medicate fishes that may have all manner of parasitic or bacterial pathogens depending on the care they received.
They will not risk placing them with fishes they are selling for same reason. 
At least no reputable stores will do so.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (26 Oct 2017)

Lindy said:


> Ah, sorry awb lol...
> Roadmaster I don't like the throwaway nature of many people that have fish but to be fair to Ian at least he keep them a while. Many folk on here buy fish just to decorate a scape for a couple of months at the most. There isn't any long term commitment it seems for the majority.



I often wonder what happens to all the "decorative fish" Its one of the reasons I'm not a habitual scaper. I don't have multiple tanks usually 2 at the most and one is usually mid sized and a cube or similar. Round my way the LFS just won't take any in at all. even if they know you run a tight ship and have bred and raised the fry yourself. Fair enough if you are up there in the top echelon of our scaping community I guess you will have the contacts, stores will probably even borrow you fish if the store gets a mention. Breeding fish was my hobby before taking plants seriously, generally the plants were there purely to help clean water and provide hiding places or spawning areas. Now it's so difficult to get rid of the fish I've lost interest really other than stuff I can actually keep, especially when dealing with fish that may have a spawn in the hundreds. I also get too attached the them I guess, when you've spent a long time nurturing them they often do become members of the family. 

It doesn't sit well with my OCD either, in my tank there will always be leftovers from previous setups that don't fit in. I currently have a Panda cory who's fins have nearly gone he's that old, must have been through about 5 new setups with me by now, I reckon when he dies I will be having the day off work 

Maybe I should setup a tank that's just dedicated to plants so that I can rip it down and start again whenever the mood takes me but a planted tank to me is like salt without vinegar on chips 

I remember once being in my LFS browsing the fish, very reputable store, there was a guy in there wanting to buy half dozen juvenile Discus. In all fairness the store owner was checking out his knowledge of his own tank and going off some of his answers you could tell he really shouldn't be buying those fish. Soon as the guy left I raised an eyebrow at the owner and said "you know those Discus will be lucky to survive a week", his reply "I've got a business to run"

This is a guy as well who breeds his own Discus in a fish house away from the shop so just to get those fish up to 2" was no mean feat. Especially to know they were going out the door to their pending deaths. Few months later seen the same guy buying some marbled Angels so I dropped into the conversation it must be some size tank you have to put those in with the Discus his reply was "don't talk to me about Discus" I'm guessing things didn't go well. Ironic thing is that guy probably came back a few times buying meds to camouflage his lack of understanding of the fish he bought so I suppose the shop keeper was right...from a business point of view anyway.


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## Lindy (26 Oct 2017)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> I often wonder what happens to all the "decorative fish" Its one of the reasons I'm not a habitual scaper. I don't have multiple tanks usually 2 at the most and one is usually mid sized and a cube or similar. Round my way the LFS just won't take any in at all. even if they know you run a tight ship and have bred and raised the fry yourself. Fair enough if you are up there in the top echelon of our scaping community I guess you will have the contacts, stores will probably even borrow you fish if the store gets a mention. Breeding fish was my hobby before taking plants seriously, generally the plants were there purely to help clean water and provide hiding places or spawning areas. Now it's so difficult to get rid of the fish I've lost interest really other than stuff I can actually keep, especially when dealing with fish that may have a spawn in the hundreds. I also get too attached the them I guess, when you've spent a long time nurturing them they often do become members of the family.
> 
> It doesn't sit well with my OCD either, in my tank there will always be leftovers from previous setups that don't fit in. I currently have a Panda cory who's fins have nearly gone he's that old, must have been through about 5 new setups with me by now, I reckon when he dies I will be having the day off work
> 
> ...


I know what you mean. I haven't got any fish I breed deliberately anymore. I stupidly saved a spawn of discus as the parents had been devastated the last time the free swimmers got eaten. Now I siphon them out as eggs and they don't bother so much and I don't have to watch them getting eaten. I'm absolutely dreading moving on the fry in a couple or more months. They are 7 weeks old at the mo. They've been wormed and treated for gill flukes but I'm not medicating the water daily or dipping them in chemicals weekly to make them survive. They are going to have to survive in the real world once they go to new homes.

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## AverageWhiteBloke (26 Oct 2017)

Lindy said:


> They are going to have to survive in the real world once they go to new homes.



Know the feeling mate, chances are if you have a lot of them someone is going to end up with them who shouldn't. Many, many times I have given fish away to people then asked a couple of week later how they're doing and they simply said "oh it died that, I ended up getting something else" in such a throw away style, very annoying. Worst bit is they tend to say it in a manner as if there was something wrong at your end and that's why it didn't survive!


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## dw1305 (26 Oct 2017)

Hi all,





AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Now it's so difficult to get rid of the fish I've lost interest really other than stuff I can actually keep, especially when dealing with fish that may have a spawn in the hundreds. I also get too attached the them I guess, when you've spent a long time nurturing them they often do become members of the family. In my tank there will always be leftovers from previous setups that don't fit in


Pretty much the same for me. Plenty of fish where I just have one left, which I'll keep until it dies.

I had some nice tank bred _Poropanchax normani, _and I really struggled to give them away in the end, same with _Apistogramma trifasciata.  _These are nice fish, but there wasn't a demand for them locally and I won't post fish.

cheers Darrel


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## AverageWhiteBloke (26 Oct 2017)

You know what I think, there are shop stalwarts with made up names and if they have a name people will buy them. If they haven't heard of it they won't. Amount of people I talk to at work who tell me which I fish they have or are going to get and when I say I've never heard of them I always get the "and I thought you knew about fish keeping" comment 

They usually have something like a fire eating tiger shark or whatever which when they show me a picture of it turns out to be something from the Rasboro family. I had a lot of success with Siamese Fighters at one point but then realised I couldn't give them away either when the lfs started it's policy of not taking in fish. Because of their hardiness you could only give one per person. The shop would maybe take 5 and the rest you needed shot of rather quickly. So I had to give up in the end. Obviously S. Fighters wasn't a good choice to try because of the limitations with the males but I loved the fish. Now when I go in the LFS they sell these things for a fortune with names like crowns, double crowns etc. Essentially they are just the same fish though.


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## Edvet (27 Oct 2017)

dw1305 said:


> give them away in the end, same with _Apistogramma trifasciata._


Should have called them A. trifasciata "Darrelbathii"


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## dw1305 (27 Oct 2017)

Hi all, 





AverageWhiteBloke said:


> I had a lot of success with Siamese Fighters at one point but then realised I couldn't give them away either when the lfs started it's policy of not taking in fish. Because of their hardiness you could only give one per person. The shop would maybe take 5 and the rest you needed shot of rather quickly. So I had to give up in the end. Obviously S. Fighters wasn't a good choice to try because of the limitations with the males


That is the same problem with _Apistogramma trifasciata, _the males really don't like one another from an early age, and they <"remain little drab grey fish"> for a long time before any-one would take them. 

cheers Darrel


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## roadmaster (27 Oct 2017)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, That is the same problem with _Apistogramma trifasciata, _the males really don't like one another from an early age, and they <"remain little drab grey fish"> for a long time before any-one would take them.
> 
> cheers Darrel


As do the juvenile German blue ram's ,or so it seemed to me.(drab/grey)


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## AverageWhiteBloke (27 Oct 2017)

GBR would be good sellers purely because the one's out the fish store are generally rubbish. Any you get need medicated right from the off IMO.


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