# Branded or DIY



## Carpman (29 Dec 2019)

I cant make up my mind if I would be better of buying a Twinstar 900ea or doing a DIY fixture (if my current helialux day/night light is not good enough 28w led spread is 560mm)?
Why the EA? I don't think there is enough of a difference between the Twinstar EA or S  to warrant £100 extra.
I would be looking for a light that ramps up and down and would love for it to have temp adjustment.
I have looked at multiple DIY's but getting the parts would probably cost similar to the above if you want a good quality. I have also looked at using multiple (3) floodlights (with RGB, controllers and wifi) but I don't really want 3 thick cable running from floods.
I'm even thinking about using the Newer bi-colour 480 video lights x 2 29W and 3360 lumens each, from 3200-5600K  (using 1 now to illuminate tank while I play with the scape)


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## jaypeecee (29 Dec 2019)

Carpman said:


> I'm even thinking about using the Newer bi-colour 480 video lights x 2 29W and 3360 lumens each, from 3200-5600K  (using 1 now to illuminate tank while I play with the scape)



Hi @Carpman,

Lumens are for humans. If lighting is required for plants, we need to be talking about PAR (photosynthetically active radiation). Many of the so-called 'planted aquarium' LED lights are not optimised for plants. The aquarium market is being swamped by LED lights that are little more than bright lights. Even from the big name suppliers. If you're interested, you could take a look at:

https://www.aquariumcomputer.com/qu...llumination-lumen-lux-par-and-photosynthesis/

BTW, I am in no way whatsoever associated with the above company!

JPC


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## Carpman (30 Dec 2019)

jaypeecee said:


> Lumens are for humans. If lighting is required for plants, we need to be talking about PAR (photosynthetically active radiation).



I agree with the above statement but nobody that sells lights ever gives you the par ratings even my fave shop @Aquarium Gardens that I have seen. Finnex to Kessil and everything in between no PAR details. I don't have a PAR meter and at their cost, I have no intention of buying one so for now, unfortunately, it is down to the lumens for humans (using the brands' info as a comparison).


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## Ed Wiser (30 Dec 2019)

Par can only be determined with a sensor under water. An it depends how the light strikes the sensor. The par in one spot in your aquarium will be different than another. Water filters an bends light waves. 
Over the years I have been testing club members tanks. I used a Par meter as part of my work.


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## jaypeecee (30 Dec 2019)

Carpman said:


> I agree with the above statement but nobody that sells lights ever gives you the par ratings even my fave shop @Aquarium Gardens that I have seen. Finnex to Kessil and everything in between no PAR details.



Hi @Carpman 

It is not entirely true that "nobody that sells lights ever gives you the par ratings". There are some less well-known companies who are one step ahead of the game. Some of them have a background in horticultural lighting, some in marine tank lighting. But, if enough people shout loud enough and long enough, the big aquatics companies will need to listen - and, hopefully, respond. In the meantime, here are two companies that you may find interesting:

https://www.waveformlighting.com/aquarium

https://orphek.com/or-bar-freshwater-planted-led-light/

Out of interest, does _Aquarium Gardens_ recognize the importance of having PAR figures? They're probably also frustrated that a lot of manufacturers are not forthcoming with this data.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (30 Dec 2019)

Ed Wiser said:


> Par can only be determined with a sensor under water. An it depends how the light strikes the sensor. The par in one spot in your aquarium will be different than another. Water filters an bends light waves.
> Over the years I have been testing club members tanks. I used a Par meter as part of my work.



HI @Ed Wiser

We have met before!

I too have done PAR measurements and, of course, you are correct. The placement of the sensor clearly demonstrates the variation in lighting under water. Not surprising at all. Total internal reflection, refraction and wavelength-dependent depth of penetration of light makes for a complex environment. But, if aquarium lighting manufacturers provided the plant equivalent of lumens (PPF*), this would enable sensible comparisons to be made between different planted aquarium lighting products. I am still using a light fixture that I designed almost six years ago. Its output (PPF*) is a mere 20.19 micromoles/sec.

I am currently considering the purchase of an Apogee SQ-520 PAR sensor.

JPC

* PPF = Photosynthetic Photon Flux


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## Carpman (31 Dec 2019)

Seriously considering single Kessil a160 sun to start with then add controller, then the second lamp as most of my planting in new scape will be withing the 24 " mark 1 should cover it to start with. I'm still torn by these asta 20's x 3


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## Geoffrey Rea (31 Dec 2019)

Spectrum matters, depending on what you’re trying to achieve. This won’t matter to 90% of people purchasing aquarium lights.

PAR and PUR mainly matter to horticulturalist’s. Light rendition and growth rate are all that really matter’s to general hobbyists. Why would anyone marketing a light to make money from the mass market care to confuse general consumers?

It’s a specialist subject and as previously discussed multiple factors affect the end users (aquatic plants) in specific setups, so what is the benefit to producers of widely available LED fixtures giving out data that will vary from set up to set up?

Is point source that focuses on the green and blue end of the electromagnetic spectrum of radiation and their respective wavelengths and photon energies useful to Joe/Jane blogs? Is diffused light that focuses more on the red and blue better?

The majority of people don’t care as long as it grows plants and looks good.

Personally I love these sort of questions and I’m right with you with testing this stuff for myself. But it is quite the reach to expect manufacturers to release useful data when all it serves is the potential to be ripped off (cough cough Chihiros) and to prove their R&D budget was a waste of time because marketing will hand out hard won research for short term gains.

More generally we should be for a decent level of protection as it (usefully) advances the hobby potentially (when there’s no more money to be made from having exclusive knowledge).

The biggest problem people have is paying a premium for something that works. You don’t go out for an elegant meal that tantalises the tastebuds at a restaurant then claim you could have made it cheaper at home cooking it yourself. If you want to cook it yourself, you work out the recipe. If you want exact lighting and access to exclusive and lucrative R&D, you do the R&D...


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## jaypeecee (1 Jan 2020)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> Spectrum matters, depending on what you’re trying to achieve. This won’t matter to 90% of people purchasing aquarium lights.
> 
> Light rendition and growth rate are all that really matter’s to general hobbyists.
> 
> If you want exact lighting and access to exclusive and lucrative R&D, you do the R&D...



Hi @Geoffrey Rea 

Your first statement above is simply incorrect. I know of fishkeepers who observed that, simply by having red LEDs included in the products they bought, this significantly improved plant growth as a result. A lot of people are unaware that white LEDs emit only a small percentage of light in the red part of the spectrum. Therefore, the addition of red LEDs is important to the growth of healthy aquarium plants. That's just one example of why spectrum matters to planted tank keepers. And it matters immensely for colour rendition. Those lovely red plants aren't going to look their best if there's very little red light in the spectrum being emitted by the aquarium lighting. And, for this reason, it is also important that the spectrum contains a green component 'to bring out the lush green' that we all admire in our tanks. Finally, we need to consider if aquarium lighting intensity is sufficient. As you are no doubt aware, we humans perceive brightness very differently from plants. This is why PAR measurements are very important - even if just measured in air. It enables us to make comparisons between lighting products.

Finally, as for companies not publishing figures for fear of copy-cat products emerging, is this really the case? Any potential competitor only needs to do a set of measurements on any product and then set about producing their own product. It's no different to that which happens across all other industries.

I don't understand what you mean in your last statement above.

JPC


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## Geoffrey Rea (1 Jan 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> Your first statement above is simply incorrect.



You’ve read my statement wrong. I said spectrum does matter, but it probably won’t matter to 9 out of every 10 of the people buying lighting.


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## Geoffrey Rea (1 Jan 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> Finally, as for companies not publishing figures for fear of copy-cat products emerging, is this really the case?



I think @alto recently mentioned how DiCon, the parent company of Kessil, attempted to have data on their lighting removed from an online source. Possibly through legal action, but I can’t remember the original post off the top of my head.

So yes, I would argue this is the case. DiCon are involved in manufacturing for the telecom, defence/military and biomedical sectors so will take safeguarding any data seriously.



jaypeecee said:


> Any potential competitor only needs to do a set of measurements on any product and then set about producing their own product. It's no different to that which happens across all other industries.



Yes. This does happen. But that’s other companies who have taken it upon themselves to test their competitors products, not single consumers. Either way there is little to no benefit to the developers of these products handing out data willingly, it’s not a legal requirement and only serves to benefit others. So why would they do it?

In a year of working at a well known aquarium store only three people engaged in conversation with myself about the importance of light spectrum for plant growth. Hardly a majority and definitely not a conclusive answer about how many people are really interested, but anecdotally this points to an extremely small minority who buy aquarium lighting even being aware of it being a factor.


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## jaypeecee (2 Jan 2020)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> You’ve read my statement wrong. I said spectrum does matter, but it probably won’t matter to 9 out of every 10 of the people buying lighting.



Hi @Geoffrey Rea 

OK, this is a matter of interpretation and I think we may be on the same wavelength (pun intended). I think it does matter to planted tank owners for the reasons I've given above. But, they may not use the term 'light spectrum' or 'PAR' in talking about what makes for good lighting. Just like buyers of loudspeakers may not talk about frequency response or intermodulation distortion, for example. They want a loudspeaker that 'sounds good'. And, planted aquarium owners want lighting that makes their plants grow and look good. But, I think it's important to make customers and everyone else aware of what makes for good lighting in order that they can make _informed choices_. We seem to run shy of 'getting technical'. I'm not saying that we should bombard people with technical information if they are not interested. But, why not test the water (another pun!) and slowly introduce some of this techie stuff. But, equally, I think you (at a well-known aquarium store) are in a position to slowly introduce this information to those customers who are genuinely interested in learning more. You could even give them a simple leaflet introducing some of this information.

In summary, everyone deserves to be better informed - if they show an interest. And it doesn't have to be complicated. That way, they will get the best value for money.

JPC


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## Geoffrey Rea (2 Jan 2020)

Furiously agreeing @jaypeecee 

Appreciate the pun's too.

To be clear, I think the general public would be well served by illuminating their understanding of their lighting. It is possible they may initially be blinded by all the information if it were to be made visible. However, I think the hobby is full of bright people who would make informed choices on a par with other industries where consumers aim to educate themselves. Then customers across the spectrum could have a vivid understanding of their lighting  

Pun's aside... No longer working in the aquarium industry as of the new year unfortunately, however was merely reporting a lacklustre level of interest from most people that I met in person. No reason why this can't be changed though if people in the hobby demand it. People frequently just lean on branding as a short-cut to thinking unfortunately, or justify their purchase because such and such YouTuber uses them.


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