# Excel Overdose



## FJK_12 (8 Mar 2019)

Hi all, I've frankly had enough of the hair/brown algae in my tank and despite using every method in the book and reducing light/increase co2 and manual removal, I'm still getting this stuff months on from set up. Although not as bad as it was its incredibly difficult to get rid of from my MC carpet particularly. At this point I'll do anything to not have to spend most of my maintenance pulling it out of the tank.

I've read conflicting advice on overdosing excel online - could someone share the best way of using it to defeat algae? Apparently it's very effective against hair algae. I've no livestock in the tank anymore, but have heard it can be damaging to certain plant species. 

Would be very grateful if someone could point me In the right direction! Thanks


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## Tim Harrison (8 Mar 2019)

I don't think overdosing with excel is a good idea. I'm not convinced it'll help eradicate brown algae and there is a danger you'll damage your plants which will leave them vulnerable to further algae infestations. You really need to find the source of the problem before you treat the symptoms. Too much light and high organic load are probably the cause; diatomaceous algae is common at start up and especially with Gucci substrate like AS. It can persist for several months but usually disappears in around 6 weeks.

 The ADA Solar RGB, it's either on or off, so not good, especially if you're new to aquascaping. If you've just raised it then it's going to take a while for things to settle down.

To help combat organics keep your filter clean. Also, you could try adding more media; more capacity to deal with organics. I have, and don't really suffer the usual brown algae at start up. But, in my case the output of my filter is highly overrated for my tank capacity so I'm not concerned about the reduction in flow. I also added a Eheim skimmer this time around; more flow and greater surface agitation, aeration, and O2 saturation, all help with the breakdown of organics.

I'd also perhaps consider chucking some of the more infested plants, trimming the leaves of the ones left to get rid of as much algae and dying leaves as possible and replanting bare areas with new plants, to increase plant biomass, which may further help by inferring greater biological stability.


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## rebel (8 Mar 2019)

Is it just diatoms? filamentous or otherwise?

If so, just add amano or even cherry shrimp and don't feed them. They will eat it.

I once had a massive diatom bloom for 6 months after tank start. I added about 500 cherry shrimp into the tank (someone gave me about 1000 , and overnight all diatoms were all gone )

any pics of the tank?


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## FJK_12 (8 Mar 2019)

Thanks guys. I've tried my hardest to find the source of the problem and have had many successful tanks before this with no algae problems, and I still can't work out what the problem is. It's filamentous algae not diatoms I'm sure. Tank is at least 4 months old. 

I'm using an ADA solar 1 which I've raised to reduce light intensity to the point where I'm losing compact growth and plants are reaching for the surface etc...  its also reduced to 6hr photoperiod. Co2 is optimal and am dosing regularly. 

As you can see from the pic its a horrible stringy mess on the MC in particular - I just can't seem to shake it. I've trimmed the MC back completely as its the only way to get all the algae off which is why it looks so bare. This stuff also tends to grow on hardscape as well but not so much on stem plants. 

I was aiming to do a slight overdose as it is not completely rampant (with heavy 2-3 times a week maintenance w/80% WC at least), with the hope it would finish it off for good...

I can understand how a massive overdose would be detrimental, so has anyone experience of whether a slight (1.5X) overdose might be safe for plants and still work in killing the algae?


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## alto (8 Mar 2019)

Filipe Oliveira video

(also watch update video)

Jurijs mit JS 


Note both use Seachem Excel - no idea how different the formulation may be from other brands

I’ve never noticed any livestock or plant issues with dosing Seachem Excel as per directions

https://www.seachem.com/flourish-excel.php
(there is also discussion on Seachem’s bulletin board)


NOTE
if shrimp have just moulted they may be sensitive to sudden changes in water parameters, whether Excel or medications or very large water changes


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## alto (8 Mar 2019)

FJK_12 said:


> I've tried my hardest to find the source of the problem and have had many successful tanks before this with no algae problems, and I still can't work out what the problem is. It's filamentous algae not diatoms I'm sure. Tank is at least 4 months old.



What substrate?
Filter?
Water change, filter clean schedule?
Fertilizers?

Realize that anyone can have a bad algae tank despite previous successes & you may struggle to find a cause/effect parameters


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## Zeus. (8 Mar 2019)

FJK_12 said:


> Co2 is optimal



What colour is your DC with no livestock I would aim for clear.
Have you done a pH profile?
ADA lights are powerful with high PAR outputs



FJK_12 said:


> losing compact growth and plants are reaching for the surface


 
Plants reaching for the surface is nothing to do with low light but poor CO2 distribution as pointed out by @ceg4048 to me, sorry no links as on mobile.

What's your filter outputs and output method spraybars/lily pipes and size of tank.

I think the issue may be fluctuations in [CO2] in combo with inaquate turnover/flow with high initial light


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## alto (8 Mar 2019)

Zeus. said:


> Plants reaching for the surface is nothing to do with low light but poor CO2 distribution as pointed out by @ceg4048 to me, sorry no links as on mobile.


Plant internode elongation being non-light dependent would mystify many botanists 

While I agree there may be a CO2 component, light threshold would need to be met first


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## ian_m (9 Mar 2019)

I have single dosed X10 Excel before and can confirm is does wipe out green algae and BBA. However I have tough plants that do not appear to be affected by Excel and no sensitive fish or shrimps.

Just be careful. Try spot dosing using a syringe (either Excel or hydrogen peroxide) first as a "safer" option.

I have also dipped plants in diluted Excel before, works well but if too strong it kills the leaves.


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## Zeus. (9 Mar 2019)

alto said:


> Plant internode elongation being non-light dependent would mystify many botanists



Is that what they believe to be true or what they can prove with a good scientific paper on aquatic/semi aquatic plants? we can ignore what happens with plants out of water IMO as [CO2] is 400ppm



alto said:


> While I agree there may be a CO2 component



The paper @ceg4048 quoted Here was on rice which was used in rice paddy field, I would of thought their was a light component too, but the papers results tell what was found.
In the OP tank there was plenty of light to start with which lead to the green hair algea, *Green hair algea* well worth a read IMO and Clive points out high light, poor CO2 distribution/ poor flow.

To support what Clive says I have some MC 50cm deep in water thriving slowly due to low light but it is compact and surrounded by MHG and micro swords no green hair algae in the area




But flow is great with twin maxspect gryes and pH is stable from lights on till CO2 off to within 0.1pH DC is


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## dw1305 (9 Mar 2019)

Hi all,





FJK_12 said:


> It's filamentous algae not diatoms I'm sure


It looks quite brown in the photos, if it is brownish? That makes <"filamentous diatoms"> more likely. 

Do you have access to a microscope? You could tell <"really quickly with one">. 

cheers Darrel


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## alto (9 Mar 2019)

Still working my way through this paper (nice summary paper though now it’s at least 12 years in the past )
https://academic.oup.com/aob/article/101/2/229/186522



> *SURVIVAL VALUE OF THE UNDERWATER ESCAPE*



Seems to be the focus of this data compilation, so I’m a bit confused how this is applicable to aquarium plants which are predominantly plant species able to adapt to longterm submerged conditions via altered leaf structure 



> In a few cases, submergence tolerance is known where submergence does not stimulate shoot elongation or even suppresses it, e.g. in the ‘Turlough’ form of Ranunculus repens(Lynn and Waldren, 2003) and the ‘FR13A’ form of indica rice (Jackson et al., 1987). These plants must therefore possess features of enhanced resilience to submergence per se. These may include ethylene-enhanced formation of adventitious roots (Laan et al., 1996; Lorbiecke and Sauter, 1999) and improved photosynthetic ability by new leaves formed underwater (Mommer and Visser, 2005) arising from changes in leaf shape and internal anatomy. An example of the latter is the induction of thin lathe-shaped leaves replacing the thicker ovoid aerial leaves in Callitriche stagnalis (Jones, 1955). However, it must be emphasized that direct experimental testing of the effectiveness of these morphogenetic changes in enhancing survival is mostly lacking.



Isn’t it this last, which would serve as a suitable guide to aquarium plant biochemical adaptations?


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## Millns84 (9 Mar 2019)

I had issues with BBA on moss/wood which were in the upper parts of my 60l nano cube. 

I drained the water below the the BBA and used a spray head to mist Excel on the affected areas. Left it for a few minutes then topped up the tank and it was gone in a few days. 

I don't think this method did any harm to any of the plants/fish but it was certainly effective. In terms of the dosage, it was pretty hard to measure but I doubt it was even x2 dosage.


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## Zeus. (9 Mar 2019)

alto said:


> Still working my way through this paper



Took me a few days with rereading sections too 

When I have done a 5 day blackout ie no light/CO2/ferts heavy covering over tank, when I uncovered the tanks as I didnt peek, lots of plants had elongated their stems so you obviously you think plant reaching for light. To test the paper a 5 day blackout could be done with two small tanks one no light/CO2/ferts but the other no light but keep the CO2 and ferts going then see if the elongation still happens. As the paper does surgest that the plants elongate to the lack of nutrients so a 5 day black without nutrients CO2 and Ferts is bound to make them elongate from what the paper says. Only prob is without light the [CO2] would get pretty high as the plants would be using the CO2


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