# Ei advice please



## langer! (13 Oct 2014)

Hi,I have been dosing for about a month now using this kit
http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/fertilisers/dry-chemicals/starter-kits/ei-starter-kit.html

I was just wondering if there is any thing else I should be adding as well, because obviously this is just a starter kit and I thought it might not contain all that I need to dose. 

Also is it safe just to mix these with tap water or HMA filtered or does it have to be RO water, and if the RO is a must what are the reasons behind this 

Thanks in advance 


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## ceg4048 (13 Oct 2014)

langer! said:


> I was just wondering if there is any thing else I should be adding as well, because obviously this is just a starter kit and I thought it might not contain all that I need to dose.


The term starter kit has nothing to do with whether it contains what you need. It's a starter kit because it gets newbies started without them having to think about all the things they need to buy separately, and to figure out how fast they need to replace the various powders based on usage. After you gain experience you will have a better idea which and how often to buy.




langer! said:


> Also is it safe just to mix these with tap water or HMA filtered or does it have to be RO water, and if the RO is a must what are the reasons behind this


Use whatever water you want and which makes your life simpler.

Cheers,


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## ian_m (13 Oct 2014)

KISS. Keep it simple.... Just use tap water, its fine. Shake, leave overnight all dissolved in the morning.


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## langer! (14 Oct 2014)

Ok thanks for clearing that up. If I have yellowing leaves on Echinodorus bleheri, would dosing iron help this or would this already be covered in that I'm already dosing? Also are there any sort of test kits that you can get to test nutrient levels in the tank? I could be wrong but I'm sure I've seen people talk about them? Thanks again 


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## ceg4048 (14 Oct 2014)

Yellowing of leaves can be caused by a multitude of different deficiencies. It can be due to a deficiency in Nitrogen, Iron, Magnesium and even Manganese.
That's why EI was invented to address the multitude of causes and to simplify the troubleshooting by including most all the nutrients.
If you have the starter kit then you do not need to worry about why leaves are yellow. You simply dose the prescribe amounts and carry on.




langer! said:


> Also are there any sort of test kits that you can get to test nutrient levels in the tank? I could be wrong but I'm sure I've seen people talk about them? Thanks again


There are a plethora of test kits, all of which are useless and a waste of money. You do not need to test anything if you are dosing per EI because it guarantees that all the important nutrients are available in required amounts. People talk about test kits all the time and talk is cheap. Do not fall into the trap of test kit hypnosis. They will never help you to grow better plants.

Dose the nutrients listed in the instructions of your starter kit and forget about worrying. If you want to worry then worry about the really important things like CO2, flow, distribution and cleanliness.

Cheers,


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## JayZH (14 Oct 2014)

I have a question, Would Barr's GH booster be additional benefit or it will also covered in the starter kit?


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## ceg4048 (14 Oct 2014)

Hi,
    Check details in http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/when-do-you-add-gh-booster.34367/

I'm not sure if the starter kit adds Mg/Ca. I think I recall seeing options on John's website for hard water or soft water but I might be confusing that with some other site. I'll have to have a look to refresh my memory and get back to you.

Cheers,

OK, I've had a look and John includes Epsom's Salts to his starter pack. If you really needed the Calcium you could add the GH Booster or the Calcium Nitrate on Johns site http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/fertilisers/dry-chemicals/calcium-nitrate-ca-no3-2.html

Again, if using hard tap water then there should not be any need to add these. Very rarely do we ever see a Calcium deficiency.

Cheers,


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## JayZH (14 Oct 2014)

This is a huge help, Just looked up the water report in where I live. Below are the key figures.


Calcium 52.2 mg/L



Magnesium 7.4 mg/L
Potassium 1.2 mg/L
Iron <0.005 mg/L

Manganese <0.005 mg/L

Magnesium and Postassium are covered in starter kit. so good here.

1) 52mg Calcium is well enough, right? so I do not need to dose Calcium.
2) How much iron does Chelated trace has? I am a red plant fan, I am thinking dosing additional 2mg EasyLife Ferro together with Chelated trace. Is this good idea?
3) How much Manganese does Chelated trace has?
4) I am also thinking dosing JBL daily trace (1 drop together with Chelated trace), Do you think its not nesscesary?


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## ian_m (14 Oct 2014)

1. Why do you want to dose calcium ? Calcium is not really required by plants. Is required by snails.
2. What has iron got to do with red plants ??? Why are you over dosing iron ? The EI chelated trace is enough.
3. Manganese is part of EI, ignore water report.
4. ??? EI is enough.


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## JayZH (14 Oct 2014)

well said. its pretty much I am expecting to hear.

Another questions I always wanted to ask? what those Shrimp minerals sold on the market? are those just Calcium? I guess if I do EI dosing, the shrimp will probably get everything from EI. I have well over 100s and keeps on breeding.


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## Sk3lly (14 Oct 2014)

JayZH said:


> 2) How much iron does Chelated trace has? I am a red plant fan, I am thinking dosing additional 2mg EasyLife Ferro together with Chelated trace. Is this good idea ?



I always thought the key to getting plants to turn red was
A) high lighting
B) a certain nitrate to phosphorous ratio

I believe iron helps lock in the colour and keep it looking nice, reds or greens.

I may be completely wrong and would be nice for someone more experienced to clarify or confirm  


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## ian_m (14 Oct 2014)

JayZH said:


> Shrimp minerals sold on the market?


People generally use RO water with shrimp (or RO and tap) and add shrimp minerals to get it to a fixed & known TDS & GH.


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## ceg4048 (14 Oct 2014)

Sk3lly said:


> I always thought the key to getting plants to turn red was
> A) high lighting
> B) a certain nitrate to phosphorous ratio


Coloration in plants is a lot more complicated than just high light, which, if blindly used as a standard policy, will get you into high trouble.
The very first priority ought to be to get plants healthy by having a solid nutrient dosing program, by having good CO2, by having good flow/distribution and by cleaning the tank regularly.
When these actions are accomplished, then nothing else really matters and colors appear. As the plant grows closer to the surface the incident light will automatically be higher and the plant will respond by allocating pigments to the leaf to protect itself from incident radiation. Ratios have little relevance in aquatic plants and it will get you nowhere focusing on ratios. More important than any ratio is whether you are above or below the minimum required concentration of the nutrient in question.



Sk3lly said:


> I believe iron helps lock in the colour and keep it looking nice, reds or greens.


Iron is a lot more important to plants than just what pleasing color it produces. Iron is an important element in Chlorophyll synthesis. So plants suffering Iron deficiency will suffer growth problems because they cannot produce sufficient quantity of Chlorophyll with which to produce food to grow. The lack of Chlorophyll shows as paleness in the leaf, because chlorophyll is a green pigment, but the aesthetic issue of color is secondary. As I mentioned in post #5, there are other deficiencies which can result in poor color, and more importantly, poor health.

Cheers,


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## Sk3lly (14 Oct 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> Coloration in plants is a lot more complicated than just high light, which, if blindly used as a standard policy, will get you into high trouble.
> The very first priority ought to be to get plants healthy by having a solid nutrient dosing program, by having good CO2, by having good flow/distribution and by cleaning the tank regularly.
> When these actions are accomplished, then nothing else really matters and colors appear. As the plant grows closer to the surface the incident light will automatically be higher and the plant will respond by allocating pigments to the leaf to protect itself from incident radiation. Ratios have little relevance in aquatic plants and it will get you nowhere focusing on ratios. More important than any ratio is whether you are above or below the minimum required concentration of the nutrient in question.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the reply 

I dont have too much of a problem in colouring up the plants i use. I also have pressurised co2 and what i believe to be fair flow. Looking to increase my distribution after reading comments actually from yourself regarding the importance of this factor. Im also a firm believer of a weekly 50% water change, or as close as you can get. Mine is nearer 40% as that is what my water change containers hold. 

So you say high lighting is not so much the issue, but even with good nutrients and co2 would a plant such as wallichii colour up under low lighting conditions??

Also i read that a lower level of nitrate around the 10ppm range and phosphorus somewhere in and around the 3-5ppm range helps aid in the production of the pigment the plants produce as their protection method against high lighting. Sun block if you prefer. Not doubting your knowledge in the slightest just merely discussing 

As for iron i understand the plants usage that you mentioned. I see a lot of people talk about pumping their tanks full of iron to 'colour' a plant up. Will this work or not?? I believe not

Thanks   


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## ceg4048 (14 Oct 2014)

Sk3lly said:


> So you say high lighting is not so much the issue, but even with good nutrients and co2 would a plant such as wallichii colour up under low lighting conditions??


Well, as I mentioned, high lighting is one of the factors but it is not the only factor. Coloration depends on a lot of factors, not the least of which is genetics. There are many different cultivars as well as many different wild variations of the same plant. Also, the expression "low light" has to be defined in terms of an absolute measurement such as PAR. Spectral differences may also make a difference in pigment allocation. Each species has a different strategy for survival, so it get complicated. I've grown R. wallichii under high PAR without it coloring up particularly well, yet a change of bulb model which contained more red gave the illusion of more color. Instead of chasing red in uncertain species, it's better to just get plants that are definitely red. A lot of times we see colorful internet images but the high colors may be photoshopped.




Sk3lly said:


> Also i read that a lower level of nitrate around the 10ppm range and phosphorus somewhere in and around the 3-5ppm range helps aid in the production of the pigment the plants produce as their protection method against high lighting


No. Pigments are mostly made of Nitrogen and Carbon so lowering the N concentration does not aid in production of pigments. Lowering N has been used which lowers the Chlorophyll content. Since Chlorophyll is high in N, a reduction in Chlorophyll allows other pigment colors to be more visible. Again, NO3 test kits cannot reliably or accurately measure NO3. PO4 test kits cannot reliably or accurately measure PO4. So it has all been an illusion obtaining those values and they are really meaningless. 




Sk3lly said:


> As for iron i understand the plants usage that you mentioned. I see a lot of people talk about pumping their tanks full of iron to 'colour' a plant up. Will this work or not?? I believe not


As I mentioned, if a plant is deficient in Iron it's colors on new leaves will tend to be pale due to poor Chlorophyll production. If Iron is then added to an Iron deficient tank then of course the colors will be less pale as Chlorophyll density is increased. If the plant has sufficient Iron then adding more iron will not significantly enhance coloration.

Cheers,


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## Bhu (14 Oct 2014)

ian_m said:


> Why do you want to dose calcium ? Calcium is not really required by plants.


 
Is that really true? For my non aquatic plants calcium is dosed to keep the stems strong and thick. Aquatic plants also surely need calcium for strong non brittle stems? But maybe its different for aquatic plants?


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## ian_m (14 Oct 2014)

Bhu said:


> Is that really true? For my non aquatic plants calcium is dosed to keep the stems strong and thick. Aquatic plants also surely need calcium for strong non brittle stems? But maybe its different for aquatic plants?


Sorry what I meant to say is extra calcium is not required, most water in UK contains sufficient calcium and plants will/may also get enough from any substrate used.

Adding extra calcium is only necessary if in a super soft water area or using RO water.

Symptoms of calcium deficiency here
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/deficiencies.htm


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## Bhu (14 Oct 2014)

Phew I'm glad that's cleared up as I use RO water and been debating this in my mind for ages...


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## Sk3lly (14 Oct 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> Well, as I mentioned, high lighting is one of the factors but it is not the only factor. Coloration depends on a lot of factors, not the least of which is genetics. There are many different cultivars as well as many different wild variations of the same plant. Also, the expression "low light" has to be defined in terms of an absolute measurement such as PAR. Spectral differences may also make a difference in pigment allocation. Each species has a different strategy for survival, so it get complicated. I've grown R. wallichii under high PAR without it coloring up particularly well, yet a change of bulb model which contained more red gave the illusion of more color. Instead of chasing red in uncertain species, it's better to just get plants that are definitely red. A lot of times we see colorful internet images but the high colors may be photoshopped.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for taking the time to reply again. Interesting read and has helped clarify things in my mind. I may pick your brains another day on another thread

Sorry OP for temp hijacking


Thanks again 


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## ceg4048 (14 Oct 2014)

Bhu said:


> But maybe its different for aquatic plants?


The role of Calcium has to do with cell signaling and osmoregulation issues, not with structural issues. Cells use a network of signal transduction pathways to conduct developmental programs, to obtain nutrients, to control their metabolism, and to cope with their environment. Calcium is used in the form of Calcium Ion, Ca++ not as hard Calcium such as in bone. The Calcium Ion Ca++ is used as an "internet" or "nervous system" in plants.

Cheers,


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## Bhu (14 Oct 2014)

Thanks you


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## Zak Rafik (16 Oct 2014)

langer! said:


> Hi,I have been dosing for about a month now using this kit
> http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/fertilisers/dry-chemicals/starter-kits/ei-starter-kit.html
> 
> I was just wondering if there is any thing else I should be adding as well, because obviously this is just a starter kit and I thought it might not contain all that I need to dose.
> ...



Hi
Thanks for raising this question. Learnt al lot from the questions and answers.


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## langer! (19 Oct 2014)

Yeah me too, everyone on here seems so helpful. It's refreshing to have people help rather than just say you're doing it wrong and not give an explanation, or try to sell you something. So thanks for you advice  


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