# Hardscape only set up advice.



## Ady34

Considering a hardscape only set up and would like some advice on the ins and outs of maintenance please.

Obviously you dont get the benefit of plants as additional filters, so your relying on the filter, water changing and detrius removal via gravel cleaning etc for water quality, but how do you manage algae etc with the fluctuations in c02 through water changes. Is it as simple as only using aquarium lighting when viewing or should there still be a set photoperiod for the fish? You can still introduce algae eaters such as crossochelius and otocinclus sp. to help but are you likely to suffer algae outbreaks? All this kind of links to the next mute point of ph crashes, a myth in the planted tank, but is it a myth in non planted aquaria too. I have very soft low KH water and would like some advice on water management with respect to this. Obviously if i carry out large 50%+ weekly water changes it shouldnt be a problem, but does this then have a negative implication of possible algae outbreaks?
Are there any general pointers for successful upkeep of non planted aquariums?

Also does anyone know where you can get large pieces of wood in the uk? I know Tomm Barr will export Manzanita but would like really to see the wood and choose in person.
For example pieces similar to the ones used here, and what type of wood is this?:










Cheers for any help   
Ady.


----------



## tim

hey mate not sure about all the questions but i tend to do my water changes after lights out on my low tech tanks gives more or less 18 hours for the co2 from the tap to gas off PITA because im an evening lights on type of guy but hey gives me something to do when i first got into the hobby with no plants i just made sure i could pull out the hardscape for a good scrub every month or so. re lighting go for some sub standard led's maybe enough to view fish but not enough to grow anything.Would you need a 50% water change on an unplanted tank most lfs's would say 10% is enough   i know jbl sell a lot of nitrate,phosphate,silicate removers which your lfs will sell you to help curtail algae so they say hope this is of some help ady


----------



## Ady34

Cheers Tim,
Yeah water change after lights off seems like a good way of going about minimising the co2 fluctuation effect....but like you I'm an evening viewer, but if I could pick and choose when to illuminate for viewing I could cope with the odd evening off  
As for 50% water change, I was suggesting this to help with water quality issues which may lead to a ph crash in my soft water area. The buffering capacity of my local tap water is negligible, but if ph crashes are a total myth then I maybe don't need to worry. Thought large water changes would help remove any organics and ensure tip top water quality in a fish only set up.
Cheerio
Ady


----------



## OllieNZ

If your worried about ph crashes add some baking soda to buffer the water. I think my next setup is going to be fish only but with a planted sump, not scaped just fast growing plants probably floaters. Nothing wrong with big water changes in a fish only setup. I think the low lighting for viewing only is a good idea.
How big is your tank and what fish are you planning on keeping?


----------



## Antoni

Hi Ady,

I don't see reason, why you can have a tank with hardscape only. It is much like having a fish only or shrimp tank. Good filtration, moderate fish load and regular water changes are pretty much everything you will need. One of the tanks, If I remember well is done by Tom Barr. The wood is manzanita. 

Regarding the lighting, I think you will need a low light, best in the 5400-6500K range, for most natural feeling, which to be on for few hours a day -4-6 hours max.

I would not worry to much about pH fluctuation, as the water you add is having the close if not same pH, as the one in the tank.. most likely about 7. 

That is why in shrimps only tanks, we use active soils, which actually help reduce the pH, under 7. 

You don't add C?2, so there should not be significant reduction in the value, driven by the anaerobic process in the tank. If you have a good filtration/circulation, do regular water changes, you are going to be ok. Just think of this tank as a cichlid/fish only tank...


----------



## Ady34

OllieNZ said:
			
		

> If your worried about ph crashes add some baking soda to buffer the water. I think my next setup is going to be fish only but with a planted sump, not scaped just fast growing plants probably floaters. Nothing wrong with big water changes in a fish only setup. I think the low lighting for viewing only is a good idea.
> How big is your tank and what fish are you planning on keeping?



Hi Ollie,
tank is the studio tank, 180l, 90cm x 45cm x 45cm,  and im thinking of angelfish or discus hence the large water changes for messy fish. I fancy enjoying the fish for a while without worrying about c02.
Yeah i use sera salts already but was hoping to just benefit from my soft water and opt for softwater low tds/conductivity fish so could forget about dosing anything...however its not really a hardship to buffer the water at water change time to maintain a level tds.



			
				Antoni said:
			
		

> Hi Ady,
> 
> I don't see reason, why you can have a tank with hardscape only. It is much like having a fish only or shrimp tank. Good filtration, moderate fish load and regular water changes are pretty much everything you will need. One of the tanks, If I remember well is done by Tom Barr. The wood is manzanita.
> 
> Regarding the lighting, I think you will need a low light, best in the 5400-6500K range, for most natural feeling, which to be on for few hours a day -4-6 hours max.
> 
> I would not worry to much about pH fluctuation, as the water you add is having the close if not same pH, as the one in the tank.. most likely about 7.
> 
> That is why in shrimps only tanks, we use active soils, which actually help reduce the pH, under 7.
> 
> You don't add C?2, so there should not be significant reduction in the value, driven by the anaerobic process in the tank. If you have a good filtration/circulation, do regular water changes, you are going to be ok. Just think of this tank as a cichlid/fish only tank...



Cheers Antoni, 
seems from joining ukaps ive managed to dispel some myths in fishkeeping and just want to clarify that the same principles apply for non planted tanks regards water changes. I want to do the large water changes alongside good filtration to keep water quality optimal, but dont want to suffer unsightly algal blooms so need to clarify in my head what lighting i should be giving the tank and when?? Will the fish stress with random illumination periods?, is a stable photoperiod beneficial to them also?
Im thinking i may need to add extra aeration to the tank also to help the bacteria in the filter.
I suppose if i go ahead ill just have to suck it and see with regards algae, ill keep good tank husbandry and hopefully all will be well....it seems an eternity since keeping just fish.

Cheers,
Ady.


----------



## Antipofish

I may be wrong but I seem to remember reading a thread before about water changes after lights out... people chatted hither and thither about it, then along came Ceg and said it was a load of 'rollocks', LOL.  Sadly I cannot link to it but at the mention of his name, I am hoping he may comment


----------



## Antoni

IMO, you don't need to go mad about water changes, as long as you have a good filtration and reasonable fish load. Just do it regularly, clean the filter when necessary and the tank and its inhabitants will be happy. 

Regarding the light, the fish are living creatures and as such, they need light and normal day/night cycle. The fish will not be happy, if you keep them in the dark all the time, this will disturb their life cycle- feeding, breeding habits, they will not show their true colours etc..

Clive or Darrel, could share more scientifically backed up information on this matter!


----------



## jack-rythm

Anything with ceg's name in I read lol. He gives such truthful advice.. Sometimes it's hard for beginners like myself to follow his knowledge because it requires us dissecting our plants colourations and plants health to determine water conditions etc and for a beginner this is very difficult. That said, it allows for beginners like myself to know where to begin reading and learning. I have never truly believed in test kits. Not really. So everything he says makes sense. If a cat becomes skinny it needs food, if we become fat we need exercise, if we are pale it's a deficiency of some sort, these are the things we must learn to understand. Relying on something to tell us our information for us is not truly understanding the issue.  now although straight to the point in anyway, ceg is incredibly reputable. I base a lot of my leanings on his methods. In a way were all beginners  



Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Ian Holdich

The wood in the second one looks like Large or XL Sumatra wood to me.


----------



## Iain Sutherland

whats all this no plant crazy talk ady!!


----------



## tim

Have you considered low light plants no co2 mate now you can raise your lights could even go em emmersed growth out of the back of the tank plenty of floating plants to diffuse light I admit I'm with everyone else don't want to see you tear this down but you got to do what makes you happy ady good luck with the path you choose


----------



## Ady34

Antipofish said:
			
		

> I may be wrong but I seem to remember reading a thread before about water changes after lights out... people chatted hither and thither about it, then along came Ceg and said it was a load of 'rollocks', LOL. Sadly I cannot link to it but at the mention of his name, I am hoping he may comment



Hopefully it is a myth and one which i can rule out



			
				jackrythm said:
			
		

> Anything with ceg's name in I read lol.



Yep, hes one of the oracles....




			
				Antoni said:
			
		

> IMO, you don't need to go mad about water changes, as long as you have a good filtration and reasonable fish load. Just do it regularly, clean the filter when necessary and the tank and its inhabitants will be happy.
> 
> Regarding the light, the fish are living creatures and as such, they need light and normal day/night cycle. The fish will not be happy, if you keep them in the dark all the time, this will disturb their life cycle- feeding, breeding habits, they will not show their true colours etc..
> 
> Clive or Darrel, could share more scientifically backed up information on this matter!



Cheers Antoni,
fish load may be the issue as angels or discus are large and the tank isnt that big so will need to ensure tip top water. The filter should be ok (fluval G6) which will be cleaned weekly.
Im with you on the light and it just wouldnt feel right switching on and off to suit so a set photoperiod would be best, maybe a 6 hr with not too high light intensity   



			
				ianho said:
			
		

> The wood in the second one looks like Large or XL Sumatra wood to me.



Hi Ian, 
looking at the sites for the 2 pics above i found out that they are ADG (Aqua Design Group) hardscape only set ups by Jeffrey Senske, the wood you can buy reasonably cheaply in America its called Texas select driftwood but unfortunately no shipping to the uk   



			
				easerthegeezer said:
			
		

> whats all this no plant crazy talk ady!!



just a thought for now, but a strong one in all honesty. Finding trying to optimise things challenging and still on the brink with c02 and fish which i dont like. The set ups i like are of the lush luxuriant growth only offered in high tech set ups so low tech isnt an option for plants so thinking of making things a little easier and less expensive and enjoying the fish and the relative simplicity of hardscape only. 
Sounds a bit defeatist, but its not that so much as family life is quite important and finances are also an issue....loosing plants in itself is like burning money   Ive pulled the Manzy wood out of the garage to see if i can utilise some of the hardscape materials i have to put something together thats what i envisage.....


----------



## Ady34

tim said:
			
		

> Have you considered low light plants no co2 mate now you can raise your lights could even go em emmersed growth out of the back of the tank plenty of floating plants to diffuse light I admit I'm with everyone else don't want to see you tear this down but you got to do what makes you happy ady good luck with the path you choose



Ha, weve crossed posts and ive answered that one about low tech at the bottom of my last post.
Not really into the emersed growth stuff and i have the relitively low tech shrimp tank to scratch the plant itch.
Dont get me wrong, i love planted tanks and am not giving up on them, maybe just having a breather as life is busy, maybe i wont even do it yet  :? 
Thanks.


----------



## Matt1988

Why not have some sort of floating plant to mop up the nutrients and subdue the lighting for the fish? I'm sure they would appreciate it would also put a dampener on the algae 

Matt


----------



## Iain Sutherland

Family first mate, no one will argue that.  Bet a couple of hardy plants end up in there anyway if you go that way   
How is the tank going now? Better with the lower light intensity? 
Laters


----------



## Ady34

easerthegeezer said:
			
		

> Family first mate, no one will argue that.  Bet a couple of hardy plants end up in there anyway if you go that way
> How is the tank going now? Better with the lower light intensity?
> Laters



Think i still need to raise the light unit further, i stupidly mounted the brackets without considering id have to go higher than 13", ill have to look at another set of longer brackets if it stays planted. Nothing really happening, but the melting has stopped. Doesnt look healthy though, its not balanced right and i added some microrasbora kubotai and they really struggled with the c02 so ive had to reduce it further....which means the light has to go higher! Frustrating!


----------

