# Centre piece fish



## Sammy Islam (21 Feb 2020)

Hey everyone,
I'm coming to that stage where i want a pair (or two) of some sort of centre piece fish! I started my scape 5 weeks ago and it's maturing nicely. Its a aquascaper 900 so 186L, probably 150L after soil and hardscape.

I originally set up the tank intended for a pair of german blue rams but my male died the other day and i've decided i don't want to replace him and try again, so ill be giving my female to my mate who has a male, failing that she will be donated to LFS.

I've always loved gouramis, use to have a dwarf gourami and he was a right character/nutter. So i'm thinking maybe 2-4 honey gouramis? Has anyone got any experience with them? Would they be suitable for a scape like mine?

My tanks running at 25 degrees in anticipation of putting in the rams, but what's the best temperature for the gouramis? Are they jumpers? Do they hunt shrimp?

My current stock is:
14 Asian rummy nose tetra
4 ember tetra (10 more waiting to be caught and transferred from old tank)
20+ red cherry shrimp





Thanks!


----------



## Matt @ ScapeEasy (21 Feb 2020)

Believe it would be best to try and get 3 females and 1 male. The colour morphs can be hard to se at a young age in the shop and the natural coloured ones look the most stunning to be honest so worth waiting for them to come in or ordering specifically.

Don’t see why they wouldnt be suitable for your tank or compatible with your other fish. Whilst I’ve never seen one eating a shrimp immune did seem more confident after my last honey passed. Not sure if this is usual though...


----------



## Sammy Islam (21 Feb 2020)

Usually the LFS has loads of them in a tank, usually they have the red ones and the yellow, or maybe sunset variety. How do you sex them? I assume the females have less colour than the males, and a rounder dorsal fin thing? As to the shaper/pointy male?

I was thinking either 2 sets, red M/F and yellow M/F. Or 4 yellow/orange 1M/3F. Can i lower my water temp a little? 25 is pretty high and would benefit from more co2/o2 and less evaporation.


----------



## Matt @ ScapeEasy (21 Feb 2020)

See here for both natural colour form and temperature info - you’ll be fine at 23 degrees

https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/trichogaster-chuna/


----------



## Sammy Islam (21 Feb 2020)

Thanks, i've read a few profiles and am edging towards them really. Will go have a look at a couple LFS and observe them for a bit and see if i can find some females too.

Might have to get some flaoting plants for them, maybe a bigger variety. Not loads just a few to move around the surface of the tank, would look pretty cool.


----------



## Gill (21 Feb 2020)

If you are going to go for the yellow honeys or sunsets.
Females are rounder and have a solid black line running along the lateral line. Males will have a slight Black wing to their chest and pectoral fin.
Also with All Gourami Rounded Dorsal Female Pointed Male.
Floating Plants are a must for them so that they can bubblenest.

Also 2 Males to 4+ females would work best. That way you will see A Hierarchy to the group and a Dominant Male will emerge with the Strongest brightest colours. You will also then see the Males Sparring and Dancing to the females to entice them into the nesting areas they have made.


----------



## Sammy Islam (21 Feb 2020)

Gill said:


> If you are going to go for the yellow honeys or sunsets.
> Females are rounder and have a solid black line running along the lateral line. Males will have a slight Black wing to their chest and pectoral fin.
> Also with All Gourami Rounded Dorsal Female Pointed Male.
> Floating Plants are a must for them so that they can bubblenest.



Thanks! I will definitely look out for that. I have a decent flow, circular motion so might have to have a section to keep the plants contained. Will they be good with the flow?


----------



## Gill (21 Feb 2020)

Yeah they don't mind high flow. Just make sure they have an area where they can relax and def floating plants sectioned off. Either Using Air Line, Or I used Gutter Gaurd from the Poundhsop suctioned into a Corner to allow Floating plants to grow into a thick matt. You can even use Crochet netting to section off a part.


----------



## Sammy Islam (21 Feb 2020)

Cool, i'll try figure out the best place i can do it, probably back right corner but that's where i  need light for my R. H'ra

The middle of my tank has less flow so will be a "calm" area hopefully. So you recommend 6 for my tank? I'm Ieaning towards the sunset colouration as it would compliment my embers and rummy nose.


----------



## alto (22 Feb 2020)

Sammy Islam said:


> So i'm thinking maybe 2-4 honey gouramis? Has anyone got any experience with them? Would they be suitable for a scape like mine?



From Mark Evans Journals
(he added them to most tanks as he felt they helped eliminate surface film, he mentions adding 4-5 to a 90cm, somewhere he has some photos of a couple males looking just stunning (sadly I can’t seem to find it ))

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/120-x-55-x-55-journal-finished.17974/page-15
scroll down to #287 for an amazing photo

Filipe Oliveira also keeps these in his home tanks

Like most gourami, they will take some shrimp - though don’t seem to be avid shrimp hunters, so I’d establish the shrimp colony before adding (most fish)

Unfortunately the more colourful forms are reputed to be hybridized with dwarf gouramis so share some of their more aggressive demeanour and health issues (dwarf gourami Iridovirus... which at least seldom infects any other fish in the community), instead look for the wild type form
(note that most shops will sell the red, yellow and sunset forms as “pure” honey gourami, these will usually mature to a larger size)

Note that honey gourami come from fairly still waters, so while they will survive in higher flow tanks, I’d not add them into a tank with excessive flow
Once your plants are grown in, the fish should be able to find lower flow areas
I’d not worry about floating plants (unless you’re a fan of these anyway)

Awesome scape!
I’d add another 10 - 15 Sawba resplendens - it’s generally recommended to have a good mix of male/female ... but the best photos of these fish I’ve seen is an old ADA Iwagumi (I think) - the blue sheen of the males contrasting with bright orange faces
As these are mostly wild caught, and I’ve seen a good number with a “wasting disease” I suggest feeding a levamisole~food for 3-5 days, then repeat after some weeks


----------



## alto (22 Feb 2020)

Dwarf cichlids will love that sandy area 
(though if your water is very hard & alkaline, I’d only add tank bred, more adaptable species)

If you want more rams, I’d add a group of 7-9 juveniles as they don’t form strong “pair bonds”


----------



## Sammy Islam (22 Feb 2020)

alto said:


> From Mark Evans Journals
> (he added them to most tanks as he felt they helped eliminate surface film, he mentions adding 4-5 to a 90cm, somewhere he has some photos of a couple males looking just stunning (sadly I can’t seem to find it ))
> 
> https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/120-x-55-x-55-journal-finished.17974/page-15
> ...



Thanks, will have a good read through the journal. I will go have a look and observe as i'm still unsure what to get. Will probably head over to maidenhead aquatics as they usually have a massive selection of fish.

I understand most fish will eat baby shrimp, but as long as they don't actively hunt them then i'll be happy.

I'm not sure if i want anymore asian rummy nose, even though i think they are great and very colourful, their behaviour makes the tank hectic as they chase the females constantly in groups and they have like an orgy in the crypts so half the time the tank looks empty 

Can i not use meds dripped on say tetra crisps? Because i've never seen medicated food, do you have any recommendations? I do have meds, but haven't used any as they all are very active and eat alot and dont look like they are wasting. But would be good to make sure i guess.



alto said:


> Dwarf cichlids will love that sandy area
> (though if your water is very hard & alkaline, I’d only add tank bred, more adaptable species)
> 
> If you want more rams, I’d add a group of 7-9 juveniles as they don’t form strong “pair bonds”



I wish! Would love to find some tank bred ones from a local keeper but other than that i don't want to try again they are hard work when their quality is generally low. Also i would think rams would rip out all the HC and MC  but if i see some really healthy rams some where i may be tempted to buy a pair or small group. Do they do better in groups? And how many M/F?


----------



## alto (22 Feb 2020)

I’ve not had any issue with rams and plants (I do add rams once plants are established for several weeks), I have had some ram groups become dedicated shrimp hunters    
It’s very difficult to find decent rams locally - most shops bring in the L and XL off the shipping lists, which means the fish have been growth hormoned (or are hybrids) ... unfortunately these fish sell very well to beginner hobbyists so it’s difficult to convince a shop to import smaller, more expensive stock


For medicated foods, I use Seachem’s protocol (it’s on the Focus page re previous thread)
You can certainly try preparing a strong solution of whichever medication and soaking the tetra crisps - if possible, I’d include Seachem Focus as a binding agent - though if you add the medicated food in a series of small additions so that fish consume food within 5-10 sec, that may work well enough   

If you’re not keen on the S resplendens behaviour, choose alternate fish
I had ~35 and they were everywhere in the tank, there were definitely more males than females in the group, they often separated into 2 “streams” that would weave together, then separate again - I quite enjoyed watching them
As they seemed very healthy, I never medicated but by the 18month - 2 year mark, I had only a handful remaining
Speaking with other hobbyists, this seemed not unusual 
As I’ve since seen shipments come in quite emaciated, I’ve begun to wonder if I’d have had a different experience if I’d treated for internal parasites 

I’m very keen on chocolate gourami species _S osphromenoides, S selatanensis, S vaillanti_
but they can be challenging to source (especially healthy stock) and require suitable tankmates (I’d not attempt these fish in hard, alkaline water)
They are lovely interesting fish with unique behaviours but aren’t a good fish choice for an active busy tank - or if you prefer an active shoaling species (though most will drift more once settled)


----------



## Gill (22 Feb 2020)

If you would like to Keep rams with Shrimp, Lots of Hiding and cover for the shrimp so they can feel safe. Rams are good hunters and spend alot of time sifting sand looking for food. 
If you dont want to keep hormone fed Rams, then buy from a UK breeder, You can find them on Aquarist Classifieds and the BAND app. If you want a Shop that Sells UK Bred Rams, then have a lot at Premier Aquatics in Runcorn. He used to Work in the Fish Section at Chester Zoo and has been breeding many fish for years, 

So soften Flow you can use Amazon Swords to deflect flow in areas, And they provide cover aswell and Also if you let the Leaves grow to the Surface and overlap, they create bubble nesting areas.


----------



## Sammy Islam (22 Feb 2020)

alto said:


> I’ve not had any issue with rams and plants (I do add rams once plants are established for several weeks), I have had some ram groups become dedicated shrimp hunters
> It’s very difficult to find decent rams locally - most shops bring in the L and XL off the shipping lists, which means the fish have been growth hormoned (or are hybrids) ... unfortunately these fish sell very well to beginner hobbyists so it’s difficult to convince a shop to import smaller, more expensive stock
> 
> 
> ...



I do love the asian rummy nose, i i bought them for their natural behaviour as they just do their own thing, like they dont know they are in a tank!  i have a mix of males and females but there are definitely more males and they are very interesting. Also i love the fact the embers follow them around which should be even better when the rest are added in.

Regarding feeding i actually put food in very slowly, couple crisps at a time as they have very small mouths so take longer to eat, so the binding the meds may work pretty well with my feeding routine. Will check out seachem focus!  i may just do a complete round of meds when i have the tank fully stocked.



Gill said:


> If you would like to Keep rams with Shrimp, Lots of Hiding and cover for the shrimp so they can feel safe. Rams are good hunters and spend alot of time sifting sand looking for food.
> If you dont want to keep hormone fed Rams, then buy from a UK breeder, You can find them on Aquarist Classifieds and the BAND app. If you want a Shop that Sells UK Bred Rams, then have a lot at Premier Aquatics in Runcorn. He used to Work in the Fish Section at Chester Zoo and has been breeding many fish for years,
> 
> So soften Flow you can use Amazon Swords to deflect flow in areas, And they provide cover aswell and Also if you let the Leaves grow to the Surface and overlap, they create bubble nesting areas.



Thanks i'll have a look at the band app and see if i can find anyone that's not too far away. I live down south so don't really want to drive up north 

I would say theres lots of hiding places for the shrimp, especially between all the gaps in the rock and behind where all the stem plants are, plus there will be more places to hide once it's grown in a little bit more.

I bought my rams because they looked healthy and wearn't massive. I observed them for like 30mins before picking the two that seemed to have paired up and were young. I've seen some monster rams in my LFS, like the size of acara fish, i wouldn't buy them.

I would like some rams, they are my favourite fish by far, the colours are lovely and their behaviour is amazing and so cool to watch them interact.

Are there things i should look out for when purchasing rams? I always look at their bellies and see if they are fat or skinny, also their fins and gills/respiration.
Ideally i'd like a pair or maybe 2M 3F.

Will head over to a LFS tomorrow and just have a mooch about and get a feel for some centre piece fish.


----------



## alto (22 Feb 2020)

Sammy Islam said:


> Ideally i'd like a pair or maybe 2M 3F.


I’d suggest 3-4 males 3-4 females - sufficient numbers of each sex so that a more dominant fish has more than one “other” to focus on 
I prefer to select Rams etc from a single group (assuming I’ve found a decent seeming source) so would select 4 male, 3-4 female ..... then in the (unfortunate) event of some losses, I will (hopefully) still have sufficient numbers 
Your present female will likely have something to say about the new rams coming into HER territory, adding a group of juveniles will diffuse the tension 

When feeding larger foods to smaller fish, I usually just crumble the food 

Hopefully you can continue to run the smaller tank as a Quarantine/Hospital tank


----------



## alto (22 Feb 2020)

just read your smaller tank is 125l 
I was thinking of something 60P sized for a Q/H tank


----------



## Sammy Islam (22 Feb 2020)

Unfortunately i have to get rid of my old tank, i don't have the space anymore now i have the as900. Was going to be broken down last weekend but will probably do it really soon. 

If i see a group of rams that look healthy and chunky (but small) i may be tempted to buy a group i don't really want loads of them, but will definitely buy a group rather than a pair. Maybe 2M 3F max seeing as i already have a female. If i do get a group i will probably just put them through a couple courses of the medications from the other thread to make sure i have the best chance from the beginning. 

On a side note, what would you think the volume of my water is? 186L tank, 27L soil, 22kg rock, alot of plants and wood. I assume  like 150L?


----------



## Siege (22 Feb 2020)

Won’t the rams dig up the soil?

I used to keep them and they were like rabbits in more than one way!


----------



## Sammy Islam (22 Feb 2020)

My rams never really dug up any plants but i would imagine in the new scape they could uproot the mc/hc from nibbling bits they fancy seeing as they are ground feeders, thats why i wanted a good sized sand bay. They are good at ripping too, that's why i wanted a pair, less damage caused than if i had 6


----------



## Tankless (22 Feb 2020)

Have you considered any of the Dario species such as the Scarlet Badis?


----------



## Gill (22 Feb 2020)

Also rams are good for snail population control. They actively hunt for the egg sacs.

Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk


----------



## Sammy Islam (22 Feb 2020)

Tankless said:


> Have you considered any of the Dario species such as the Scarlet Badis?



I have but rams are my favourite  also i've heard the badis are avid shrimp hunters? 


Gill said:


> Also rams are good for snail population control. They actively hunt for the egg sacs.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk



I have a weak spot for rams so if i see any healthy ones i may fold and buy a pair, but a group of them would be cool and i'm weighing it all up.


----------



## Matt @ ScapeEasy (23 Feb 2020)

Gill said:


> Also rams are good for snail population control. They actively hunt for the egg sacs.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk



did not know that! Very interesting! Do you have a link to source or know if any other fish which do the same?


----------



## alto (23 Feb 2020)

Most dwarf cichlids, gourami, anabantoids etc will keep snail populations in check - though I’ve mostly seen them take out the infant snails rather than preventing their appearance - at least with ramshorn snails (which are ubiquitous in local shop & hobbyist tanks)

I suppose if you fed heavily the fish might be less interested in snail hunting
The ponds snails must not be as delicious as I have to collect those myself (fortunately they’re much less common than ramshorns)


----------



## Gill (23 Feb 2020)

Matt @ ScapeEasy said:


> did not know that! Very interesting! Do you have a link to source or know if any other fish which do the same?


Just personal experience with them. Watched them looking on the underside of leaves looking for egg sacs. And they tear them apart. Same with any egg sacs on the glass. 

I know they are hunting as my moss balls get covered in sand from them sifting etc. 

Other fish that will do the same. Platties, Mollies, guppies, most dwarf cichlids, 

Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk


----------



## Sammy Islam (23 Feb 2020)

Anyone kept multiple colour morphs together? Like a pair of GBR and a pair of gold rams? I would assume the colour morphs are more susceptible to the diseases that commonly occur


----------



## Matt @ ScapeEasy (23 Feb 2020)

The colour morphs are more susceptible yes, the gold ones especially. The “ shape morphs” are more susceptible e.g. balloon or long fin. I have kept them together successfully in the past.

the good looked a bit plain when kept with the classic gbrs so maybe just go with normal and blue?


----------



## Sammy Islam (23 Feb 2020)

Cool thanks, I think i'll go have a look for some tomorrow and see if anyones got any healthy looking ones. Won't be buying as of yet until i decide if i want a pair or a group but will be good to go look at some fish again! Haven't been fish shopping in ages


----------



## Barbara Turner (24 Feb 2020)

What temperature do people keep there planted tanks with rams in?
Im running my tank at 26 degrees.. A little hot for my plants and a little cold for the rams. 

I spotted some dark knight rams.. Amazing looking fish, photos don't do them justice. 

I thought I would stick with my standard German rams for a while before adding any extra. I also wasn't sure if mixing would be a good idea.


----------



## Gill (24 Feb 2020)

Sammy Islam said:


> Anyone kept multiple colour morphs together? Like a pair of GBR and a pair of gold rams? I would assume the colour morphs are more susceptible to the diseases that commonly occur



Yes you can keep multiple strains together.  I have Standard Blue, Electric Blue, Gold, And SB Electric Blue Together. With No Problems at all. 
The Weakest Strains I have Kept have Been the shortlived Pink Rams. They Died shortly after Spawning. And Have never seen them again after that. This was in 2004-2005.



Barbara Turner said:


> What temperature do people keep there planted tanks with rams in?
> Im running my tank at 26 degrees.. A little hot for my plants and a little cold for the rams.
> 
> I spotted some dark knight rams.. Amazing looking fish, photos don't do them justice.
> ...



Dark Knights are another Fad, and they honestly look like a sickly ram. And from some of the breeders they are surprisingly aggressive towards each other, and other ram colors. The ones you see in listings have been color enhanced with hormones and then photoshopped. And the one above in reality will never look like that. As its natural coloring does not show thru the black that much. 

I am keeping mine @22 and they are fine, I prefer to keep my tanks at a cooler temp and always have.


----------



## Matt @ ScapeEasy (24 Feb 2020)

Was just about to post the Same about the black rams as Gill, (hormones, aggression etc) as a result they will be very sensitive at best.

I’ve personally kept Rams at 24 degrees with no problems but see no reason why others can’t replicate Gills success at 22 degrees. We often keep fish too hot overall - another option is to follow a seasonal temperature pattern but that’s another topic I won’t delve into now!


----------



## alto (24 Feb 2020)

Danziger Farm, Israel


----------



## Sammy Islam (24 Feb 2020)

Gill said:


> Yes you can keep multiple strains together.  I have Standard Blue, Electric Blue, Gold, And SB Electric Blue Together. With No Problems at all.
> The Weakest Strains I have Kept have Been the shortlived Pink Rams. They Died shortly after Spawning. And Have never seen them again after that. This was in 2004-2005.
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for that Gill. I hate running at 25, co2/o2 and evaporation is crazy, so glad i can knock it down lower. I'm going to get on the hunt and visit a few shops today.


----------



## Sammy Islam (24 Feb 2020)

I really can't make up my mind if i want a group or just a pair of GBR. I would love more than a pair but i worry that when my scape is more grown in there won't be enough space for territories. But i think i want 2 pairs, GBR and maybe the electric blue or the gold depending on stock health. 

Also i need to start thinking about amano shrimp (i have 4 fully grown) and maybe otos. How many of each should i be looking to get? I've held off buying loads of amanos as i didn't want them to ravage my S.repens and rotala, but it's getting the to stage where i will need their help


----------



## alto (24 Feb 2020)

If you want to go with a lower tank temperature, I encourage switching out M ramirezi for other dwarf cichlids from naturally cooler waters (there are few fish specialists that would recommend keeping M ramirezi below 24/25C)
As you’ve the remaining female, obviously continue to keep her, but I’d not bring in a group ... of course the S resplendens would be happy at 22 

There are some stunning photos of Apistogrammas Bitaeniata sp. ‘Shishita’ in these ukaps journals

Rain Forest

Fallen Tree

Disobedience II

Aquascaping workshop


For more Apistogramma information

Apisto Sites (Martin & Tom C)
- fish photos, wild fish adventures and more

Apistogramma.com for discussion on keeping various species


----------



## Sammy Islam (24 Feb 2020)

Thanks, my female currently lives in my old tank, i was thinking of buying a group and adding them all into my new scape at the same time. But i cant cant decide whether to buy one male GBR for my female  andthen buy a pair of gold or electric blues Or buy 2M 3F GBR to join my female. 

I won't be turning my temp down too much but if i can go lower than 25 i will go down to 24. 

I've had apistos in the past but they seemed very aggressive compared to the rams and am worried they'd hunt my shrimp even more.


----------



## alto (24 Feb 2020)

For Amano’s, I’d resist until the MC is more established, as they will begin rolling *a lot *of soil once their numbers are up 
(the males will remain much smaller and seem to be more diligent workers as well )

Other Caridina and Neocaridina shrimp will help keep things clean, and once established, will likely breed sufficiently to outpace fish depredations 
(Check the swap forum for shrimp )

How many Otocinclus do you currently have?
(I’d go with 5-6)


----------



## alto (24 Feb 2020)

Sammy Islam said:


> Or buy 2M 3F GBR to join my female.


I’ll reiterate that I’d add more than 2 males - if they are not well matched, you may end up with one dominant male that will harass the subordinate male ... with at least 3 males, an aggressor must split his time and energy (plus chasing after the girls)
I suggest adding 3M 3-4F (but would wait a couple months, establishing carpet and shrimp first - loads of baby shrimp will live beneath the MC carpet)

(FWIW Nuno M kept shrimp in his auascaped tanks, along with his A bitaeniata - he mentions that while they did some shrimp hunting, shrimp continued to breed etc ... )


----------



## Sammy Islam (24 Feb 2020)

alto said:


> For Amano’s, I’d resist until the MC is more established, as they will begin rolling *a lot *of soil once their numbers are up
> (the males will remain much smaller and seem to be more diligent workers as well )
> 
> Other Caridina and Neocaridina shrimp will help keep things clean, and once established, will likely breed sufficiently to outpace fish depredations
> ...



I have no otos currently, waiting to introduce some. I'll grab 5 tomorrow hopefully.

Very true about the MC and i already have 20+ red cherry shrimp that have had babies, probably 3 or 4 berried females swimming about too.



alto said:


> I’ll reiterate that I’d add more than 2 males - if they are not well matched, you may end up with one dominant male that will harass the subordinate male ... with at least 3 males, an aggressor must split his time and energy (plus chasing after the girls)
> I suggest adding 3M 3-4F (but would wait a couple months, establishing carpet and shrimp first - loads of baby shrimp will live beneath the MC carpet)
> 
> (FWIW Nuno M kept shrimp in his auascaped tanks, along with his A bitaeniata - he mentions that while they did some shrimp hunting, shrimp continued to breed etc ... )



If i wait a couple of months surely the female wont let new rams into "her" tank? 
I'll try find two pairs of different colour morphs then?


----------



## alto (24 Feb 2020)

If you can find them, I love the Tiger shrimp (Pro Shrimp lists them but is out of stock) - they’re among the most diligent algae patrol, though can be much more rambunctious (among themselves) than cherry shrimp and are slower to establish

pm @Conort2 and see if he has some Tangerine tigers to spare


----------



## Sammy Islam (24 Feb 2020)

alto said:


> If you can find them, I love the Tiger shrimp (Pro Shrimp lists them but is out of stock) - they’re among the most diligent algae patrol, though can be much more rambunctious (among themselves) than cherry shrimp and are slower to establish



I was hoping to buy some tangerine tigers at some point. I use to have them in my nano tank and they outbred my cherries by far. I got them from proshrimp so will purchase from there again. But don't like ordering livestock in the winter season.


----------



## alto (24 Feb 2020)

Sammy Islam said:


> If i wait a couple of months surely the female wont let new rams into "her" tank?
> I'll try find two pairs of different colour morphs then?


She won’t be able to hassle several rams at once, after a day or so, she’ll resign herself to Changed Circumstances 

Though you could also add 2 juvenile males to the Aquascaper 90, then add her after a few days 
(I know, I know, I keep saying Not Only 2 Males, but that’s for the long term - if you go this route just monitor that all 3 rams are actively eating etc)
Then add another 1-2 males and 3-4 females later on (depending on how it’s going and what stock you can find)

I’m less convinced on mixing various color morphs, IME the neon/electric blues are much less aggressive than the wild types, and even golds I’ve kept (also observing mixed tanks at the lfs)
Wild type fish will also communicate using their “bars” and altering coloration, the “stripeless” fish are at a disadvantage in this regard 

OTOH your tank is a good size with lots of hiding areas, so mixing ram morphs may work out just fine


----------



## Sammy Islam (24 Feb 2020)

alto said:


> She won’t be able to hassle several rams at once, after a day or so, she’ll resign herself to Changed Circumstances
> 
> Though you could also add 2 juvenile males to the Aquascaper 90, then add her after a few days
> (I know, I know, I keep saying Not Only 2 Males, but that’s for the long term - if you go this route just monitor that all 3 rams are actively eating etc)
> ...



Well i have to break down my tank in a week, i've been putting it off for weeks and catching some fish here and there. So realistically i have to put her in within a week. 

I think ideally i want a pair of GBR and a pair of gold rams to go with my orange theme. The GBR obviously aren't orange but they are my favourite and will stand out even more. That's the plan anyways  

So would it be best to go hunting for some rams to put in at the same time as her? 

Or put her in, let the carpet establish if she doesn't destroy it, and then add the other 3 rams?


----------



## alto (24 Feb 2020)

Unless you want to add several juvenile rams later - if you only want 2 pairs - I’d add them as soon as possible, then add her to the 900

While it may be possible to add only 3 more rams once she is established, if she’s of the right (wrong) temperament, she could disincline them considerably as she will know the tank very well, and they are strangers in a strange land 
(Most aggressive ram I’ve ever has was a wild type female (possibly wild), she eventually had her own 20 gal tank (with shrimp and some fast tetras ), that she fiercely patrolled for the next 3 years)

In terms of the MC carpet, you might want to add another 1-2-grow (or MC pot) to fill in the spaces a bit, then make sure not to feed in those areas - maybe turn the pump down for ~10min when feeding until the MC is more established 

Ive never had issue with rams disturbing the soil much, or MC carpet that is growing in


----------



## alto (24 Feb 2020)

How roomy is your 900 cabinet - can you not fit in an AIO tank to serve as a Q/H tank?

Such as this one 
- just add a lid of some sort in case of jumpers


----------



## Sammy Islam (24 Feb 2020)

I'm going to get more MC but waiting for them to come back into stock this week so i can fill in some patches. 

I turn my filter off while feeding and feed slowly so food doesn't really blow around the tank, it lands in the sand for the fish/shrimp to sift through at feeding times. 

Got minimal room in my cabinet as i have co2 and auto doser and filter and tools. i wouldn't really want to house a hospital tank down there. 

I think my best option is to find 3 other rams, 1M GBR and either a pair of electric blue or gold rams depending on health. Will have to do it soon and i think i should just add them all at once or add the new rams a day after i put her in. Will start courses of meds after they have settled to have the best chance, i also need to medicate the rummynose as you mentioned earlier as one looks a little thin compared to the rest even though everybody is eating.


----------



## alto (25 Feb 2020)

Sammy Islam said:


> i think i should just add them all at once


Yes!

Or them first, and her the next day
(though it’s your tank, I can’t be swayed on this point )


----------



## Barbara Turner (27 Feb 2020)

Matt @ ScapeEasy said:


> I’ve personally kept Rams at 24 degrees



That's good to know, I'll drop the tank to 24 degrees.  The black rams were very aggressive even in the fish shop.  They were jet black with blue highlights.

I've moved cherries to a different tank, even my juveniles Germanrrams are proper little shrimp hunters, I feed them frozen mysis shrimp occasionally and they love them. Not much smaller than cherry shrimps.


----------



## Sammy Islam (28 Feb 2020)

I'm going to my nearest maidenhead aquarics in St Albans on sunday to hopefully pick out some new additions. 

I still haven't made up my mind on what i want, but i am definitely on a mission to find a male GBR for my female, that's for sure. I really want the gouramis too, but i just dont think my scape has enough room for 2M 4F, especially fully grown? Also i have no place of low flow for a bubble nest, my flow is in a circlular motion and each corner has decent flow apart from maybe the front right, but thats where my lily pipe goes.


----------



## Tankless (28 Feb 2020)

Barbara Turner said:


> I've moved cherries to a different tank, even my juveniles Germanrrams are proper little shrimp hunters, I feed them frozen mysis shrimp occasionally and they love them. Not much smaller than cherry shrimps.



My German ram has been fine with my cherry shrimp. It depends on the individual personality of the cichlid. I had two apistogramma two years ago. The male ignored the shrimp whilst the female would hunt the cherry shrimp. I've also got the temperature around 24°C.


----------



## alto (28 Feb 2020)

Sammy Islam said:


> really want the gouramis too, but i just dont think my scape has enough room for 2M 4F, especially fully grown?


If you find true honey gourami, you can try 1M 2F or 2M 2F, beginning with small juveniles they’ll likely remain on the smaller side
If the male wants a bubble nest, he’ll find a suitable leaf etc 

What else are you planning fish wise?


----------



## Sammy Islam (28 Feb 2020)

What do you mean by true? Wild type? In an ideal world 4 would be cool, maybe a M/F pair of sunset honeys and a M/F pair of the red flame honeys?. Do the colour morps recognise eachother as the same fish?

I probably wont stock anymore to be honest i don't want to over do it right now, but if i see some amazing looking fish i may be tempted. But my ideal number right now would be:

14 asian rummy nose 
14 ember tetra 
4 honey gourami (sunset and flame) 
2 GBR 
20+ red cherry shrimp
4 amanos (will be more later)

I would like to add some tangerine tiger shrimp at some point too, maybe when the weather is a little better for shipping.


----------



## Conort2 (28 Feb 2020)

alto said:


> If you can find them, I love the Tiger shrimp (Pro Shrimp lists them but is out of stock) - they’re among the most diligent algae patrol, though can be much more rambunctious (among themselves) than cherry shrimp and are slower to establish
> 
> pm @Conort2 and see if he has some Tangerine tigers to spare


Sorry just seen this, I do have plenty to spare. I’ve never shipped livestock before so would be a but nervous in doing so as I wouldn’t want you getting any dead shrimp. However once the weather warms up I could give it a go! They’re pretty tough so hopefully they’d be ok.

cheers

Conor


----------



## alto (28 Feb 2020)

only the wild type “honey” gourami display minimal aggression as they mature, the (hybrid) colour morphs are larger adult size and usually show their origins with increased aggression among individuals, I’d not attempt to keep single M/F “pairs” of these as the females will likely end up harassed/stressed (though it’s possible subordinate fish will manage by remaining well hidden as your tank has excellent plant thickets and hardscape)

The colour morphs will “know” each other as essentially “same species” - re general body shape, behaviour 

Check Seriously Fish Profile photos 

Re livestock, you still have significant “space” in terms of bioload, depends on what you like to see when viewing the tank


----------



## Sammy Islam (28 Feb 2020)

Thanks will see how big they are in the LFS and decide. Might just have to get 1M 2F and see how they get on.

Always liked the look of killifish, but no experience with them. The lyretail killifish looks amazing. But they probably kill stuff like shrimp with a name like that?


----------



## alto (28 Feb 2020)

These are gorgeous killifish
(as usual, you’ll find a Mark Evans journal with some gorgeous photos )

Other than these, I suggest contacting a killiclub and obtaining eggs (many of those stunning killifish you see in the shops are essentially “annual” fish) and discussing suitable species for your tank (most are extraordinary jumpers - not if, but when, and likely soon) and fish keeping goals


----------



## Witcher (28 Feb 2020)

Sammy Islam said:


> But they probably kill stuff like shrimp with a name like that?



This is exactly what I thought when I heard first time about them, their name actually means something like small stream fish (kil = small stream in Dutch), personally I think they should be called post mail fish


----------



## Sammy Islam (28 Feb 2020)

Ahh thanks, i don't want any jumpers! Will the gourami be fine seeing as they are mid/top swimming fish? 

Can't wait to go fish shopping it's been so long hunting for the perfect fish!


----------



## alto (28 Feb 2020)

Other than the chocolate gourami sp, most gourami don’t seem to be keen jumpers

As when adding any new fish, I’d drop the water level a few cm’s for the first week

Most fish jump as a “startle reflex” so having a room nightlight so you don’t need to suddenly blast the tank with room lights (when tank is in darkness) will help reduce losses, also if car headlights can pass over the tank (suddenly at night)  close blinds etc

(did you watch Balazs kitchen tank maintenance - the black card was so funny )


----------

