# Algal depression



## Garuf (26 Nov 2007)

Hello, I thought I would be algae free after overdosing excel but that seems not to be the case, here's my tank after 2 weeks.
[IMG=http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/8227/1000471es5.th.jpg]
The 2 algae that bother me the most are the unidentified one that looks just like strings of grey/green dirt and the gsa which are thick in my moss and anubias respectively.

What do I do about ridding them and preventing them coming back?
here's a close up on the worst area's 
[IMG=http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/8227/1000471es5.th.jpg]
Sam (themuleous) already suggested stripping the tank down but I thought I'd try and get as much advice as possible and use a strip down as a last resort. 

Help me, it's really getting me down.


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## daniel19831123 (26 Nov 2007)

get some SAE? They will clean up the algae but beware though if there is moss in there they might take that down as well.

What type of algae is it?


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## Garuf (26 Nov 2007)

Sae's are difficult to get and get too big for this tank (its only 11/10 gallons) otto's I can get, I already have 3 in there though and I never see them do anything...

The algae is... I don't know what it is I do have GSA and GDA on the glass and anubias though.


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## Ed Seeley (26 Nov 2007)

You may need more than 3 Otos!  I have 5 in a 12", 5 gallon cube and they soon dealt with the algae.  Get 3-5 more for yours!


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## daniel19831123 (26 Nov 2007)

definitely agree. More otos and more algae cleaner if the excel route didn't work! And maybe some fast growing stem plant. Don't know id the latter will help. Theoretically cladophora moss ball might help as they belong to the algae family and should secret some allelochemicals to stop algae from growing. It's basically a bio version of excel. I know if it works practically as I've never tried it myself


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## ceg4048 (26 Nov 2007)

Garuf,
          Lets start from the beginning so we can figure out why the algae outbreak was induced, and what you need to do to minimize it. If it is GDA then you'll have to leave it alone for 3 or 4 weeks and it should go away.

These are standard questions in order to troubleshoot:
1. It's a 10G tank but what type and wattage of lighting?
2. Is this a newly setup tank?
3. What exactly is your dosing, in teaspoons or grams if dry powder or ml if commercial fert.
4. Are you injecting CO2, if so what method and how are you measuring the concentration exactly?
5. What is your water change schedule?
6. What is your filtration?

No need to be depressed but it will take some elbow grease to remove. I don't really like to suggest stripping a tank down because the reason algae appears is because there has been some sort of error in keeping the plants healthy. If you make the same error the second time the algae will only return. If we can find out what it is that you are doing or not doing the problem can be solved.

For sure you'll have to physically remove the algae growing on the plants and wood.

Cheers,


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## Garuf (26 Nov 2007)

1. It's a 10G tank but what type and wattage of lighting? 36watt powercompact, no reflectors 
2. Is this a newly setup tank? no, 6 months old in a week or so, had algae since about month 2 
3. What exactly is your dosing, in teaspoons or grams if dry powder or ml if commercial fert. Im using the mixtures outlined by james c in his EI article, 10kno3 5mgso4 and k2po4 every other day, trace from AE just upped it to 5ml every other day to see if I get better quality anubias leaves
4. Are you injecting CO2, if so what method and how are you measuring the concentration exactly? Yes, pressurised, monitored via drop checker with dkn4 solution in it, running yellow
5. What is your water change schedule? a bucket full every sunday 40-50%
6. What is your filtration? eden 501 squeezed every water change to keep flow steady (bidding on a eheim 2213 atm)


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## daniel19831123 (26 Nov 2007)

what plant have you got in the tank? What kinda of substrate do you use if there is any rooted plant in the aquarium?


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## Garuf (26 Nov 2007)

Hc, glosso, anubias barteri var nana, taiwan moss, hairgrass eleocharis ac..., Hygrophylia Polysperma Rosanervig, Rotal Rotundifolia and Ludwigia Repens.

The substrate is ADA Aquasoil amazonia.


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## ceg4048 (26 Nov 2007)

Garuf said:
			
		

> 1. It's a 10G tank but what type and wattage of lighting? 36watt powercompact, no reflectors
> 2. Is this a newly setup tank? no, 6 months old in a week or so, had algae since about month 2
> 3. What exactly is your dosing, in teaspoons or grams if dry powder or ml if commercial fert. Im using the mixtures outlined by james c in his EI article, 10kno3 5mgso4 and k2po4 every other day, trace from AE just upped it to 5ml every other day to see if I get better quality anubias leaves
> 4. Are you injecting CO2, if so what method and how are you measuring the concentration exactly? Yes, pressurised, monitored via drop checker with dkn4 solution in it, running yellow
> ...



OK, 36 watts CF, even without reflectors, is a tremendous amount of light for a 10G tank. Wow!   I would suggest that, at least in the short term, you consider lowering your light by at least half and have lights on for no more than about 8-9 hours per day. This will immediately throttle down the demand for nutrients.

Aquasoil is notorious for leaching quite a bit of ammonia into the water column. Again, a short term solution for the next few few weeks is to do an 80% water change at least twice a week. This is a way of continually reducing the NH4 concentration in the water column. Water changes also removes algal spores, a top priority.

You could easily move up to the next bracket in James' dosing schedule. These plants are Nitrogen starved. As they decline, they then leach NH4 back into the water column across damaged cell walls. This signals algae to propagate.

Puny filters do not have a large enough bacteria colony to handle ammonia spikes. Optimally, the filter for this tank should be able to turnover at least 30 gallons per hour while filled with media. All filters are rated at about twice what they can actually do with media so you'll ideally need a filter that has a turnover rating of near 60G per hour. The 2213 has 116GPH from what I see on the website so this should be fine.

Adding more traces is all well and good but you've absolutely got to fix the macronutrients first. :idea: 

As discussed before, physical removal has got to be a priority because as you add more nutrients the existing algae will feed on what you dose. This ought to be followed by a three day blackout. Remember that you must continue to dose after every water change and dose even during the blackout. You don't need CO2 during the blackout. This might take a few weeks so hang in there.  '8)'

Cheers,


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## Garuf (26 Nov 2007)

Ok so lets bullet point this.
- cut down light : unfortunately this is impossible the 36 watt is the only light I have. 
- 2 x 80% wc may prove impractical with college but I'll endeavour to do them.
- move up a bracket in the dosing - easily done,  what you you recommend dosing wise?
-more filtration - if I don't will the 2213 I'll get a tetratec ex700.
-3 day black out : where does this fit in? sorry being a bit stupid


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## Garuf (26 Nov 2007)

Oh, and mechanical removal of course.


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## ceg4048 (26 Nov 2007)

Garuf said:
			
		

> Ok so lets bullet point this.
> - cut down light : unfortunately this is impossible the 36 watt is the only light I have.
> - 2 x 80% wc may prove impractical with college but I'll endeavour to do them.
> - move up a bracket in the dosing - easily done,  what you you recommend dosing wise?
> ...



Hi,
    Sorry, my mistake - I didn't choreograph all the suggestions:

1. Sod's law - this is THE most important factor. I'm on thin ice here because lighting isn't my specialty but I believe that even though your ballast output is 36 watts it can drive a lower wattage lamp without blowing it to bits. If it's a CF socket, all the lamps, regardless of wattage rating fit (4 pin Euro-socket right?) Just to test this I inserted a 24 watt lamp into a 55 watt ballast and it was fine - and it wasn't any brighter than if it were plugged into a 24 watt ballast. I don't know what the long term effect is though..

2. Physical removal should be performed as quickly as humanly possible. Get as much as you can out of the tank but try NOT to disturb the substrate if you can't do the water change immediately thereafter.

3. 80% water change should be performed immediately after physical removal. You must get ammonia, spores and remnants out of the tank or life is more difficult.

4. After water change dose immediately (double your dosage) and perform a 3 day blackout. Blackout means BLACKout. Do not let one photon of light into the tank. Use black plastic bin liners if necessary. Shut down CO2 (and lights obviously) The second dose if possible should be done at night (if it can be done - if not, leave it).

5. 80% Water change at the end of blackout. This is important because dead things killed by the blackout like spores and leaves generate ammonia if left in the tank. Dose (double) after water change:!: 

6. I'm not familiar with the tetratec. It should be fine if it's got similar media volume and similar pump output as the Eheim. The idea is to get enough bacteria built up (takes a few weeks) to handle NH4.

This is the standard triage for algae attacks. Keep it up for the next few weeks and you should see a decline in algae and more importantly an increase in plant health. Remove algae and infected leaves as quickly as possible. It is definitely possible to find a dosing scheme to allow you to run the 36 watts CF but I honestly don't know what that is right now. Use James 20-40G dosing to start off with and see how the tank responds in 3 weeks. Remember you can always go higher. It's when you go lower than you should that you run into trouble.

Cheers,


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## Garuf (27 Nov 2007)

ok I think i've got that, after the black out do I go straight back into a black out or do i run the tank for a few days?


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## daniel19831123 (27 Nov 2007)

Agree with clive. Funny though if you have aquasoil from the very beginning, uit should have leech ammonia from the very start and the algae shoulld have been a problem from the 1st month itself... Can't really understand why the problem start manifesting itself after 2 months. By theory your filter would have mature by then.

You can try a light diffuser for the mean time and there is loads of stuff in DIY shop that can achieve that. The easiest way is to use a semi transluminence polystyrene sheet.


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## ceg4048 (27 Nov 2007)

Garuf said:
			
		

> ok I think i've got that, after the black out do I go straight back into a black out or do i run the tank for a few days?



Hi,
     The blackout should knock back the algae quite a bit. Go ahead and do the immediate water change and turn on lights+ CO2 again. The plants need to start production again. Don't forget to dose. I would severely restrict the photoperiod though seeing as that was what got you in trouble in the first place. Even though you are dosing more it takes time for the plants to reconfigure their chemistry to take full advantage of the new dosing scheme. Meanwhile they continue to "bleed" and algae again have an advantage. It's Catch-22 but it has to be done. The frequent water changes help to limit the impact of the "bleeding".  

An analogy: If I found you starving in the desert and gave you food and water that would save you that day but it would take a few weeks of feeding before you'd regain your original weight, right? This is the case here. As you continue to physically remove the algae, then also continue to remove ammonia and spores via water changes. Continue to limit the light and to dose. Over the next few weeks you should notice that less and less algae re-grows. This is a signal that the plants are regaining their health. As the plants regain their health they will then start to absorb ammonia instead of ejecting it into the water column.

You've got to think about _why_ algae flourishes in order to avoid massive outbreaks. Too much light, too much ammonia, poor CO2 and poor feeding. That's it for all intents and purposes. Control these four basic factors and you control the outbreaks. Can you see now why I don't agree with stripping the tank and starting all over again? No matter how many times you restart the tank, if you fail to understand the causes you will continue to make the same mistakes you'll have the same troubles. Many people simply throw in the towel and give up because they never learn to perceive algae as a symptom of plant illness. Instead they perceive it as some foreign invader. Algal spores of every type will always be in your tank. Like vultures they wait for ill health or poor water conditions to attack. If we focus on keeping our plants healthy we avoid the conditions that signal them to bloom. Avoid the combination of high lights and ammonia at all cost. Avoid starvation by dosing appropriately. Whenever you see algae your default thinking should be - "plants are starving (NPK)" and/or  "too much light" and/or "ammonia breach". If you follow this discipline you will always be able to react properly. On the contrary, if you follow the popular thinking that nutrients cause algae, you'll be doomed...  

Cheers mate.


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## beeky (27 Nov 2007)

As an additional comment regarding lighting, I've got a twin 54w T5 controller (not compact though) and have two 35" T5 tubes plugged in. I think these are 36w are thereabouts. I haven't seen any problem with this and it's been running for about 2 or 3 months now.


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## Garuf (26 Dec 2007)

An update, 
The algae initial seemed to be getting better of its own accord until recently, today armed with ceg's and some research that turned up some help from Tom Barr I attacked the algae, this meant :
Cleaning everything that the algae effected, except the HC which was simply impossible without disturbing the substrate and ripping it all up and having to replant again.
removing the log trimming the anubias and moss to nothing but new shoots and scrubbing off all the algae left. 
adding the EI recommended for 20-40 gallons and unplugging the lights + co2 and covering up the tank and a slight overdose of excel.
Tommorow I'll add trace.
Not tomorrow but the day after I'll add more ferts and finally in 3 days time ill remove the covers re-attach the co2 and light and do a 80% water change.


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## Garuf (4 Jan 2008)

Update, close, but no cigar. 
Although the algae seems to have initial subsided it has not been eradicated, this clado is just impossible to shift, the moss HC and hairgrass are the hardest hit, followed by the few stems at the back, this is anything but good news.
One upside is that I moved my diffuser, upped co2 and enjoyed the extra flow of the 2224 and I've had pearling the likes I've never seen before everywhere but the moss hc and hairgrass, indication of bad health perhaps?

anyway, help is still required anyone any idea's?
I know Dave Spencer you got over a Clado attack recently, how did you do it?


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## GreenNeedle (4 Jan 2008)

Garuf

The reason that some of your plants aren't pearling may be due to defficiencies but I would guess more to do with circulation.  If most are pearling then it should mean you have got the macros and CO2 right or thereabouts as they are shedding excess oxygen but if some aren't then maybe they are not getting as much as the others.

Are the non pearlers in the same area?  Are they in a thickly planted or wooded area that breaks circulation?

I wouldve though that 36W PC without reflectors should be OK over  a small tank like a 10G should be OK but I am far from knowledgable about small tanks. lol

I have never been a fan of PC lighting over tanks since I had the 55W version.  My tank was always algified then which is one reason I switched to linear which seems to have almost cured the problem.  maybe PCs are just too intense without spreading the light as well.  Your guess is as good as mine on this issue.

Andy


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## Garuf (4 Jan 2008)

Circulation isn't an issue I feel, the 2224 has a turnover of 700lph which is high on a 10 gallon, also the stray bar is vertical and I can visibily trace mist from the diffuser all the way arround the tank right to the intake so flow/circulation isn't the cause, dosing you could be right with, the thing with pc is that they are very intense in one area and no others. Believe me I would switch to linear if I could find something suitable. 
I could increase EI dosing but I really don't want to as I haven't a clue what I'm doing in this area and I'm already dosing in the bracket above my tank size.


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## Matt Holbrook-Bull (4 Jan 2008)

firstly, dead spots can cause bad flow, even if you have a high turnover.

also, EI was designed for something in the region of 2wpg of T8 lighting, so if you have more than this, you need to increase your dosing accordingly..  so, 4wpg, would be double EI.. you can use the dosing calculater in my sig to work it all out.

personally, id carry out a 3 day blackout (total, no feeding, no co2, no ferts).. then chop the lighting down, there should be no need to start over. just make sure you remove all visible signs of algae before the blackout, and seal up the tank to light completely. after that things should be alot easier.


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## ceg4048 (4 Jan 2008)

Hi Garuf,
               Remember we talked about physical removal being a top priority. I recall you said that you were having difficulty removing it from the ground cover. If that's the case then you are sort of trapped in a catch-22 where the dosing, which is necessary, also feeds the existing algae. Ground cover and mosses are always the most difficult to deal with but you can trim, or "mow" the lawn down almost to the substrate level in order to remove the attached algae strands. With the increase in dosing and CO2 that you have implemented they will grow back fine even though they will look absolutely horrible after the trim. If you can afford it, a 3X overdose of Excel or CarboLife for about 3 weeks should take care of the remnants (hopefully the rest of your plants are not sensitive to the overdose). This takes a couple of weeks normally though. 8) 

Although I agree with Matt, since you have already done the blackout,  increased your dosing to the next tank size bracket,  increased the flow and increased the CO2 with positive effects I'd say you're on the right track. It's not clear whether you were able to increase the frequency of the water changes or whether you were able to insert a lower wattage bulb.

In any case you'll have to be patient. Try the trim and the excel treatment for a few weeks and see how that goes. If you can up the CO2 even more without gassing the fish   then do so as well.

Cheers,

Cheers,


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## Garuf (4 Jan 2008)

Frolicsome_Flora said:
			
		

> firstly, dead spots can cause bad flow, even if you have a high turnover.
> 
> also, EI was designed for something in the region of 2wpg of T8 lighting, so if you have more than this, you need to increase your dosing accordingly..  so, 4wpg, would be double EI.. you can use the dosing calculater in my sig to work it all out.
> 
> personally, id carry out a 3 day blackout (total, no feeding, no co2, no ferts).. then chop the lighting down, there should be no need to start over. just make sure you remove all visible signs of algae before the blackout, and seal up the tank to light completely. after that things should be alot easier.



Sorry, I should have also mentioned that dead spots, too, are unlikely, since the tank's only feature is a central log and this as far as I can tell has good flow all around it.

I'll leave the hc to grow more, its still a sprinkling on my substrate and it's kinda frustrating having to pull it up all the time and having to wait for it to grow back. 

Ceg, I missed that in our original conversation, was I supposed to have been increasing water changes long term? 
Also, I have been unavailable to get another bulb, one of 24W, this is entirely down to my poor money managing. That and I really thought I could get away without altering it.


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## ceg4048 (4 Jan 2008)

Garuf said:
			
		

> Ceg, I missed that in our original conversation, was I supposed to have been increasing water changes long term?
> Also, I have been unavailable to get another bulb, one of 24W, this is entirely down to my poor money managing. That and I really thought I could get away without altering it.



Water changes in high light tanks help fight algae in two ways: they reduce organic debris/NH4 concentration and remove algae spores simultaneously. It's up to you how much and how often you change. 2X per week is better than 1X, and 3X is better than 2X.  A 50% volume change is good but again, a higher percentage is better. Remember to dose properly after each change. Once you have eliminated the visible algae the increased dosing/CO2 will help prevent serious outbursts and you can then resume the normal weekly changes.

I understand you only have a small amount of HC and don't want to start cutting it but what about the other cover plants and moss that are affected? Can you trim those? Every strand you get out of the tank helps. Strands produce spores which turn into more strands.

Have you checked lampspec for bulbs? http://www.lampspecs.co.uk/Light-Bulbs- ... Daylight_4 Their 18 watt 6500K bulbs are only Â£4. I think you have to add an additional Â£7 for shipping and insurance though.

Cheers,


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## Garuf (6 Jan 2008)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Water changes in high light tanks help fight algae in two ways: they reduce organic debris/NH4 concentration and remove algae spores simultaneously. It's up to you how much and how often you change. 2X per week is better than 1X, and 3X is better than 2X.  A 50% volume change is good but again, a higher percentage is better. Remember to dose properly after each change. Once you have eliminated the visible algae the increased dosing/CO2 will help prevent serious outbursts and you can then resume the normal weekly changes.



Ahh, I've been doing 2x 50% water changes once a week back to back effectively changing 100% of the water. I can't really do more water changes as I simply don't have the time with being at college until 6pm each day. 



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> I understand you only have a small amount of HC and don't want to start cutting it but what about the other cover plants and moss that are affected? Can you trim those? Every strand you get out of the tank helps. Strands produce spores which turn into more strands.



I've cut out as much as I dare, I'd cut the hair grass more but every stem I've trimmed in the past has gone yellow after, which is not a good sign I'm sure. 
I've no moss left any more, I cleared it all out as it was too far gone I felt. 


			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Have you checked lampspec for bulbs? http://www.lampspecs.co.uk/Light-Bulbs- ... Daylight_4 Their 18 watt 6500K bulbs are only Â£4. I think you have to add an additional Â£7 for shipping and insurance though.
> 
> Cheers,



I haven't no, 14w sounds too low to me, I'd still opt for 24w, just to be on the safe side, I've read HC doesn't do so well in lower light.
I've upped my co2 a tiny bit more again today and cleaned the diffuser, tomorrow I'll carry on routine maintenance, this being dosing EI clearing out any algae and doing a back to back 50% w/c, would stability be best for ridding the last of the algae now the worsts gone or would it be best to run a second black out?


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