# iron deficiency



## discusdan (12 Feb 2013)

I've had a random selection of stem plants growing in my newly set up tank for nearly two weeks now.
I have a yeast co2 set up and at the moment I'm just dosing daily with jbl ferropol and weekly with colombo.
most of the plants seem to be doing great, I'm getting new growth and all looks healthy apart from the odd leaf here and there turning yellow and eventually going brown and decaying. I'm thinking this could be down to low iron?

I've been doing a load of water tests tonight and I did one for iron.
The results show I have 0 free iron and 0 chelated iron

I've bought a EI start kit but not started using it yet I was waiting for the other stuff to run out.

I presume there aren't any iron salts in the starter kit so I would have to buy some chelated iron salts separately.
this is the kit I got
Ei Starter Kit - Starter Kits - Dry Chemicals - Fertilisers

Question is Can I just add the chelated iron salts to the rest of the mix or do I have to does it separately?

Also is there any thing to watch out for when dosing iron

cheers.


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## LondonDragon (12 Feb 2013)

Trace elements contain enough iron for your plants, you need to start dosing the EI salts ASAP, also yeast CO2 can work but its hard to get it right, when I used it I needed to use two bottles and replaced the solution one on a Sunday and the other on a Wednesday to get a decent flow of CO2 (this on a 125l tank).


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## discusdan (12 Feb 2013)

Cheers for your reply.

Thats good, so I dont need to bother getting separate iron chelated salts, just start dosing the basic EI starter kit now.

Yeast set up is just to get me going until I can afford an fe and regulator.

I'm running two 2 liter bottles using jelly fuel and changing 1 bottle a week, I'm getting good coverage in the tank but it is 200l.
Still waiting for my drop checker to come in the post though.


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## LondonDragon (12 Feb 2013)

200l on yeast is really asking for trouble, you would probably be better taking things slow and keeping it simple until you get your pressurised system setup.

Are you still using those food containers for the CO2 mix? I seriously recommend you just use a couple of plastic coke/7up bottles  never used the jelly solution but supposed to be just as good! Also make sure you using a nano glass/ceramic diffuser or the pressure required is so great you will reduce CO2 flow quickly, you would be better off again using a ladder type diffuser in the tank.


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## ceg4048 (13 Feb 2013)

discusdan said:


> Also is there any thing to watch out for when dosing iron


Yes, stop testing for Iron because Iron test kits are not really capable of reporting accurate levels of Iron.

The symptoms you describes are not representative of Iron deficiency. These are symptoms of deficient CO2 and most probably deficient NO3 levels.

Cheers,


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## discusdan (13 Feb 2013)

cheers for the replies guys.

Not using the food containers as like you said they failed miserably, am now using 2 coke bottles with a nano glass deffuser, co2 tube and every thing is siliconed in place.
I'm getting a good steady release of bubbles and I think flow is ok as the whole tank is full of tiny bubbles.

What problems can occur using a yeast set up on a large tank? what should I look out for?

I didn't realize the test kits where that inaccurate. I have the Nutrafin test kit and was just going through all of the tests.

NO3 is around 5mg/l using the kit, so not sure how accurate this is now?

Like I say most of the plants seem to be doing well, its just the odd leaf here and there that is effected.

cheers.


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## ceg4048 (13 Feb 2013)

discusdan said:


> NO3 is around 5mg/l using the kit, so not sure how accurate this is now?


Unfortunately, NO3 test kits (and ANY Nitrogen compound test kit) are the absolute worst of the worst and that number doesn't tell you anything. The real number can be anywhere from 0.05 to 50. More info in the thread Accuracy of test kits? | UK Aquatic Plant Society
A classic example of NO3 kit inaccuracy in the thread ferts causing high nitrate! | UK Aquatic Plant Society

Cheers,


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## discusdan (14 Feb 2013)

Interesting reading cheers for the link.

So it seems the best method for water testing is fish behaviour and plant health, if your plants are green and healthy and your fish ain't dead then your waters ok 

A good clear picture of a plant and the typical mineral deficiencies would be an easy place to start to determine what might be needed, but I cant seem to find a good one. Found a few describing the symptoms but a pictures says a 1000 words and all that.


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## ceg4048 (14 Feb 2013)

Hello,
		 Sorry, there is no such thing as a clear picture of deficiencies. The reason for this is that if there are 400 types of plants then there are likely to be 400 different variations for the same deficiency.

There are some generic symptoms of nutrient deficiency which we can depend on, regardless of plant species. Typically these are the deficiencies of the top 4 required element - Carbon, Nitrogen, Phosphorous, Potassium.

C and NPK deficiencies account for the overwhelming majority of plant health failures. The reasons for this is that these 4 elements make up the bulk of the mass of the plant. For example 40% of the dry weight of any plant is Carbon, so a Carbon uptake failure is, by far the most egregious error we can make. Carbon is so important that a deficiency in this element results is widespread, far ranging and immediate damage. Carbon deficiencies are characterized by structural anomalies in the plants architecture. Any symptom of structural failure can be attributed to Carbon deficiency. This includes melting, leaves falling off, holes in leaves, rotting, browning, deformed leaves or stems, translucency, black spots, brown spots, curled tips and disintegration. Carbon failure also results in certain types of algae such as Hair, Thread or any filamentous algae, BBA (or any version of Red algae), Staghorn and Cladophora. Poor CO2 also contributes to GDA and GSA.

Nitrogen failures are typically characterized by yellowing of mature leaves and poor growth. Shortages of the ion NO3 often triggers BGA (cyanobacterial) attacks and contributes to Rhizoclonum as well as Cladophora.

Phosphorous shortages can result in stunting, but the term "stunting" is relative and may not be obvious unless the hobbyist has seen what a high Phosphorous loading can accomplish, which is accelerated growth and higher levels of colouration. Shortages of the ion PO4 can contribute to GSA, Rhizoclonum and Cladophora.

Potassium shortages are very difficult to pin down because it is so far ranging. There are no algal attacks associated with low K. Poor growth performance is the general symptom because K is used in the mechanism of growth. The growing points of a plant have the highest concentration of K. The high concentration of potassium in the cytoplasm and chloroplasts are responsible for maintaining the pH of the cell and tissue between 7 and 8. In potassium deficient plants, if the pH drops below 7 many plant processes will stop, because the enzymes that perform the many functions have a certain range of activity based on the local pH in the cell, i.e, their activity is turned on or off based on the pH.

The micronutrients are much less important and as with K, there are no know algal forms which are directly attributed to shortages of these elements. Of all the micronutrients, Fe is the most abundant and so it is considered a proxy for the other trace elements. Micronutrient shortages are typically characterized by anomalies in the appearance of young leaves only, such as discolouration or otherwise yellowing, veining and so forth. Again, it's hardly worth trying to determine specific shortages of specific trace elements because of the diversity of symptoms, so when new leaves appear strange but mature leaves appear normal the best thing to do is to simply dose more of the entire trace element mix.

Similarly, if any of the N, P, or K appear to be deficient, it's much simpler to add more of everything. The reason is that if you have a shortage of one, then you most likely have a shortage of others, so the symptoms become a confusing cacophony of syndromes making it very difficult to untangle. So just dose more of everything and that saves you from having to get a Masters Degree in Botany, racking your brain trying to figure out which elements are the culprit. This greatly simplifies troubleshooting. As I stated before, NO test kit can tell you anything about a nutrient deficiency. They are notorious for leading hobbyists down the "Primrose Path That Dalliance Treads." So use these simple guidelines and this will resolve 99% of any problems.

For more specific information on acute or chronic deficiency failures, have a look at JamesC's Algae Guide.


Cheers,


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## discusdan (14 Feb 2013)

thanks for the detailed reply, I half understood most of it  

and the algae link is brilliant, it answered a lot of questions for me.

I'll start dosing the EI ferts and see how I get on. 

cheers for your help.


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## Ady34 (14 Feb 2013)

ceg4048 said:


> Hello,
> Sorry, there is no such thing as a clear picture of deficiencies. The reason for this is that if there are 400 types of plants then there are likely to be 400 different variations for the same deficiency.
> 
> There are some generic symptoms of nutrient deficiency which we can depend on, regardless of plant species. Typically these are the deficiencies of the top 4 required element - Carbon, Nitrogen, Phosphorous, Potassium.
> ...


The best and clearest summary I've read regards nutrient deficiencies in the planted aquarium, thanks.... I wish I could bookmark this.
I'm currently suffering a few symptoms from my plants which I now know how to address....add more ferts!
Some new growth on Anubias leaves are stunted and yellow, some slight veining, pale and small new leaf growth on my lobelia cardinalis and general slow growth imply macro and micro deficiencies. My plant mass has increased since set up, so I've obviously now reached the point where I need to add more to feed the need! Obvious really, and much more simple to add more of everything than try to pinpoint one specific shortage.....especially given my symptoms seem to be phosphorus, potassium and micro shortages, which as you say will most likely also mean a nitrogen one too!
Think ill add 5ml more of each macro and micro mix per day and see how I get on.
Cheerio,
Ady.


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## LondonDragon (14 Feb 2013)

Ady34 said:


> I'm currently suffering a few symptoms from my plants which I now know how to address....add more ferts!


I lot of people tend to forget this, and overdo the science and measuring, just add more of everything than you need and you will never have an issue, more does not cause algae, but less does! 



Ady34 said:


> . My plant mass has increased since set up, so I've obviously now reached the point where I need to add more to feed the need!


A lot of people tend to forget this and its very important, as the tank matures and the plant mass takes over the tank, you need to make a lot of adjustments and not only to ferts, you need to address CO2 and flow also as this also needs to adjust to the tanks new conditions.


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