# Moving from Liquid carbon to CO2



## jonshep (6 Oct 2010)

Hi guys 
I currently have a 240l tank which I dose  easycarbo daily. How ever I have just brought a CO2 system and would like to know is there a good way to make the transition to co2 from liquid carbon?  
Do I just stop the liquid carbon and start the CO2 or can I use both whats best?
Any advice would be great

Thanks


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## ceg4048 (6 Oct 2010)

Hi,
   There's nothing special to do. Just add CO2 and withdraw the liquid carbon (or keep dosing it if you want) but do it the right way. Study the Tutorial CO2 MEASUREMENT USING A DROP CHECKER

Cheers,


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## jonshep (6 Oct 2010)

Hi 
Thanks for the info, I will defo follow that guide dont wanna hurt the fish.
Is there any benefit to using both Liquid carbon and CO2

Thanks


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## ceg4048 (6 Oct 2010)

Well, yes there is a definite benefit because adding both increases the available CO2 for the plants but adding liquid carbon does not increase the dissolved CO2 levels in the water. So this is a good thing if your critters are particularly sensitive to CO2 or if you are operating with very high lighting at the very edge of their ability to tolerate CO2. The disadvantage of course is cost. If you invest in high flowrate filtration or in supplemental pumps and pay more attention to the distribution techniques then you can lower the injection rate due to higher CO2 efficiency. Flow/distribution and CO2 uptake efficiency are closely related.

Cheers,


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## AverageWhiteBloke (11 Oct 2010)

Sorry for jumping in your post but I'm doing the same thing as you at the moment, I know that Easy Carbo does not register on the drop checker in the measurement of co2 but wondered if adding it would affect the amount of co2 the plants use?

I have been improving my gaseous co2 timing, delivery and distribution while dosing EC at the recommended dosage to make up for any short falls with me experimenting. If I now have things about right as in the the DC the right colour at the right time of day and stop using EC when the bottle runs out will the plants sense the reduction? Just wondering if when I stop whether or not to maybe turn the gas up a touch or whether the plants are not using as much of the co2 as it would if EC wasn't added.


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## ceg4048 (13 Oct 2010)

Yes, absolutely. Withdrawing liquid carbon reduces overall CO2 levels internally to the plant so they will respond by slowing their growth rate. Naturally it depends on how much you were dosing, how much lighting and what level of nutrition there is, total biomass and so forth.

Cheers,


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## AverageWhiteBloke (13 Oct 2010)

I read this viewtopic.php?f=37&t=13067 after posting probably should have checked first   which is a bit more detailed.

I bought a solenoid which has made co2 diffusing a dream, wish I'd got one before. Working away from home for a few week left a disaster on my hands with my missus not putting in the ferts while I was away and I tried setting up the co2 at a rate 24/7 that wasn't going to kill my fish  but left my plants starved when the biomass increased.  

Now I keep the BPS rate the same and have been adjusting the timing of it rather than the injection rate. Going back to EC as well as improving my co2 has brought the plants back to somewhere near healthy again  8) 

I currently have target colour at target time but appreciate that might not be the case when the EC has stopped, I have a two week window before going away again so will stop the EC a week before and check the results without it in. Reading the other post at the moment in lamens terms, my plants probably don't have a lot of co2 transporters with providing gas at the right level and EC at the rec level so stopping the EC without increasing the gas will put me back to square one I guess??

Bit of a nightmare not being about your tank for extended periods but it should be over shortly and back home for a while   Only thing I can do is make sure the co2 is set right, dump the full weeks ferts in and give the plants a good clip out before I leave. Possibly split the ferts into two portions, put one in cling film and ask the missus just to drop that in on wednesday minus the cling film obviously   surely she will remember  once a week 

EC would probably be the surest method of making sure I have met the needs when not there but you can't put a weeks worth in one go. I think I'll look through the DIY section on auto dosing for the EC which might take the error margin out when not here. Will be ok for odd times but not planning on using EC in the long game.


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## Lisa_Perry75 (13 Oct 2010)

You could look into buying an autodosing machine? This way your CO2 and fertilisation will remain constant? It would also take less hassle for you when you are home, leaving more time for water changes


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## AverageWhiteBloke (13 Oct 2010)

Now that would be good, unfortunately In my 48hour home period at some point I need to be a son to my dear old girl who's not at her best bless and a dad. Trying to find myself a couple of hours with my tank is generally frowned upon by my missus (understandably) Hence the reduction in lighting etc making the water change less important arguably   

If I do manage to convince her in doors to give me a couple of hours on a Sat afternoon to sort my tank out without it looking like I'm bordering on child neglect   it's a bit of a tender subject asking her to dose my ferts while I'm away. It's fair to say she has no interest in the tank whatsoever and in fact would preferably have a nice wall unit where it stands.   

Nearly there though, job should be finished soon and I can get back into it. This is one of the numerous times I have had a shot at a planted and work usually gets in the way every time. The auto doser would be an idea but are quite expensive for ones where I can separate the individual chemicals. This is just an ad-hoc arrangement for now.


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## ceg4048 (14 Oct 2010)

AverageWhiteBloke said:
			
		

> ...I currently have target colour at target time but appreciate that might not be the case when the EC has stopped, I have a two week window before going away again so will stop the EC a week before and check the results without it in. Reading the other post at the moment in lamens terms, my plants probably don't have a lot of co2 transporters with providing gas at the right level and EC at the rec level so stopping the EC without increasing the gas will put me back to square one I guess??


Not necessarily square one. When you remove the EC dosing on an injected tank, the only issue is to guesstimate how much percentage of CO2 gas to increase in order to make up for the loss of the CO2 that was generated by the EC. If you are far below the fish toxicity threshold then you could just increase the bubble rate by say 20%-30%. Again, this should be done when you have time to observe any potential toxicity. Withdrawing EC from an injected tank is different than withdrawing it from a non-injected tank.



			
				AverageWhiteBloke said:
			
		

> ...Only thing I can do is make sure the co2 is set right, dump the full weeks ferts in and give the plants a good clip out before I leave...


This is a really bad idea. What happens is that the plants immediately respond to the massive increase in nutrients, Increase their biomass - which then increases demand for everything and you wind up with both CO2 and nutrient shortfalls.

If you're going away, just lower the light and lower the CO2. This lowers the demand for everything and slows growth. The idea is to reduce growth rates while you're away, not try to maintain the same growth rates. That just causes more trouble.

Cheers,


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## steveninaster (14 Oct 2010)

Sorry to jump in, but that's great info.
Never thought of running less lighting while away. Will definitely go down that route in future.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (14 Oct 2010)

> Again, this should be done when you have time to observe any potential toxicity.



Hoping to get it sorted out this week while I'm about, knowing my tank the toxicity level would probably be putting the whole cylinder in one day  



> If you're going away, just lower the light and lower the CO2. This lowers the demand for everything and slows growth. The idea is to reduce growth rates while you're away, not try to maintain the same growth rates. That just causes more trouble.



Which is what I was trying to do, maintain the same growth rates. I'm still battling with my old nemesis Clive, the BBA so I have been trying my best to prevent fluctuating co2 levels from week to week. Even while I've been here it's still a problem it appears that there is no setting I can do on a Monday which will keep constant as the week goes. I had a good DC mon/tues things were a bit ropey wed and tonight I got home to a dark green. I have already dropped one 20 watt tube out of the equation which leaves 2x25watt T8's. I think I may go down the road of switching one off and go proper low tech.

The more I think about this tank and looking back from my posts from day 1 of joining this board I think there may be an elephant in the room   That is the filter!  

Maybe it's time to bite the bullet on this one, I have yet not came across anyone with this style of filter who has any success. There just seems to be no way of getting stable co2 in there so perhaps the solution is not to have a tank that requires co2  

Probably sounds like a bit of a negative vibe, just getting a bit sick of chasing my tail on this one. I'll have to sleep on this one it may be clearer tomorow. It's a bit like painting over a damp patch eventually it just keeps coming back haunt me.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (15 Oct 2010)

I feel a bit better today, back to the drawing board


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## ceg4048 (15 Oct 2010)

Mate, I know exactly how you feel. The only consolation I can offer is that at least you're living in 21st Century where you have immediate access to information. Imagine what it would have been like 20-30 years ago.

The thing about BBA is that you must not confuse CO2 instability with low CO2 levels. One can have low, stable levels of CO2 which easily keeps this algae at bay. One can have high, unstable levels which can then invite the gorilla to take up permanent residence in the tank. Whatever levels you have, it's important to start by lowering the stress on the plants by reducing the lighting levels first. Then, if possible ensuring high levels of CO2 at the beginning of the photoperiod. You also need to eliminate the BBA that is in the tank by manual methods as well as overdosing liquid carbon, if feasible, which is a common practice. 

Adhering to the 10X rule is important, but it's also important to have excellent distribution methods as well. Injection rate/timing is an obvious issue.

Less well known are issues such as the regulator. Poorly built regulators can sometimes have the effect of causing modulating of the gas flow which induces an instability in a similar way that pH controllers can do.

The type of aquascape can also affect the instability, simply by blocking flow, so it's important to keep things trimmed properly if your tank is susceptible to BBA attacks.

So there are quite a few factors that can have an additive effect. You just have to work your way through each.  

Cheers,


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## AverageWhiteBloke (16 Oct 2010)

It definitely is better these days for obtaining information, back in the day I read a lot of books on the subject and a lot of them contradict the current thinking. So not only was it hard to find info a lot of it was wrong   

I did a 30% change today in my couple of hours off   and gave the filters and its housing a good clean, there was a lot of brown staining on it. I have been trying to achieve a couple of things with the tank looking at it from a semi EI type tank based on my lowish lighting 50watts over 165ltrs and the moderate planting. I mix my macros as per James site PMDD+PO4 formula but dose 6mls in the morning before work and 6mls when I get back usually about an hour after the lights come on. That puts roughly 13/14 ppm of nitrate in the tank, I appreciate that formula is low in PO4 but my tap water is riddled with it going of my tests, water board and other peoples experience. I believe I probably will get corrected on this one but I think EI is 24ppm for kno3? Considering no 50% changes and the lowish lighting I'm hoping this is ok.  

As for CO2 I think I have circulation covered, water from the main body filter comes in at the back right which travels across the back glass and middle, this then gets picked up by the Koralia and pushed along the front low level. There was one dead spot in the back right corner at low level which I filled with a small internal canister filter. I checked this out with a Myxazin test   I put a few drops in the tank and watch how it speads a bit like a wind tunnel test   

Because my trickle filter is very effective at de-gassing I bought a larger than needed glass diffuser and a solenoid for timing when I'm not about for stability which diffuses directly under the koralia giving it a bit more diffusion time.
Now previously I had aimed for the yellow DC both of them I have 1 in each corner by lights on time, with the co2 set to switch on 2 hours before the lights I don't get lime green till about 9 in the evening after the lights have been on for 4 hours. First thing I should probably look at is setting the timing well before the lights on maybe 3/4 hours but I also have to take into account delay time on the DC.
Another problem I have is with the out flow of the filter, when the tank is full to the brim it gives a gentle ripple on the surface but as the week goes on due to evaporation this can start breaking the surface a bit too much possibly causing my mid week bad co2 readings. I top up the tank but again another problem when I'm not here. There is an extension unit that can go on taking it 2/3" below the water surface but I found that this sucked air bubbles into the tank and the energy from the in flow was dissipated dropping down so gave worse circulation all round, catch 22 I guess.

Like you say just tackle one thing at a time, I don't know how much co2 is required by my particular set up, I could probably get away with not as high co2 which was me just being fail safe but as long as it's stable. The filter does contribute heavily to the stability issue. I have been keeping some floaters in the tank to try and reduce the surface area which also trap co2 bubbles under the leaves while trying to not let them affect flow.

On the subject of lighting this had also been reduced to 6 hours per day, it's fair to say though all of these measures have only happened in the last 3 week so I would have to do all of them religiously for three week to see how it pans out, too early to tell.

Thanks for the support and anything that I think is right turns out to be wrong again please let me know   I've come to the conclusion that all this wealth of information is dangerous in the wrong hands and that it's only right for 1 particular tank one mans poison and all that.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (27 Oct 2010)

Getting a lot stabler results these days hopefully I'm getting there   I've been putting the co2 on for an hour and a half about midday and then back on again hour and a half before lights on. This seems to be countering the daylight period and the de-gassing that goes on from early morning to 5.30pm when the lights come on.
I leave it off through the night but still get a good colour DC before I leave for work in the morning I guess the plants are keeping it right giving off co2 in total darkness.


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