# EI Dosing, what now?



## bjorn (8 Mar 2011)

I've started with EI dosing, but what do I do now? The theory as I understand is that once you do EI dosing you can rule out the fertizliers as the limiting factor. 

I've also done what I can with CO2 (high flow + aquamedic inline), it goes limegreen in drop checker and plants are pearling 4 hours into the light period. PH does drop considerably from morning to night, which I guess is also a indication of CO2 being mixed in well.

Do I now just leave it as it is, or should I adjust light? I currently only 2 of the 4 T4 39w tubes that I have for this 170l tank.

Or do I still just run on smaller amount of light? How do know I have enough light? 

For example the Rotala Indica that I have does not seem to turn red (heavily trimmed it 2 weeks ago), or does it only do that once it gets close to the surface? Each leaf pair also seems quite spaced out.. Is that indication of needing more light?


----------



## Tom (8 Mar 2011)

If your plants are pearling, chances are you have plenty of light. 

Tom


----------



## Anonymous (8 Mar 2011)

bjorn said:
			
		

> For example the Rotala Indica that I have does not seem to turn red (heavily trimmed it 2 weeks ago), or does it only do that once it gets close to the surface? Each leaf pair also seems quite spaced out.. Is that indication of needing more light?



The drawback of EI is that your plants will show a beautiful green (if they are not truly red) and that's it.
Lowering N might help getting them blushy but it's risky if not tested because you can easily stun their growth if it drops to 0 for longer periods.

Cheers,


----------



## ceg4048 (8 Mar 2011)

Tom said:
			
		

> If your plants are pearling, chances are you have plenty of light.


Yeah, no kidding. The chances are 100% that there is plenty of light. I wouldn't be in a hurry to start adding more light. That's like doing 90 mph on the M25 and then wondering whether you have enough speed.

Check this thread for more about rotala => green rotal rotundifolia

Cheers,


----------



## bjorn (8 Mar 2011)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Yeah, no kidding. The chances are 100% that there is plenty of light. I wouldn't be in a hurry to start adding more light. That's like doing 90 mph on the M25 and then wondering whether you have enough speed.
> 
> Check this thread for more about rotala => green rotal rotundifolia
> 
> Cheers,



Oh good one, thanks. Not just me then. Was confused because in my old tank I did manage to get the Tropica Rotal to go red.. but with less light and less CO2. Anyway, thanks!


----------



## ceg4048 (8 Mar 2011)

Yeah, we haven't really figured out exactly what set of conditions produce exactly what color pigment response in plants. There are just vague indications that can be interpreted in different ways. At this point it's best to just concentrate on keeping a healthy and algae free tank for now and to not worry too much about getting Rotala to go red. As mentioned by some other posters in that other thread, if you're really hot-to-trot for red, you might try purchasing sample specimens from different vendors to see if there is a genetic component to the color changes.

Cheers,


----------



## bjorn (8 Mar 2011)

Any idea if it's the same with Rotala Wallichii? Another one I've got in the hope it will go red..


----------



## ceg4048 (9 Mar 2011)

bjorn said:
			
		

> Any idea if it's the same with Rotala Wallichii? Another one I've got in the hope it will go red..


Yeah, it's a similar story with R. wallichi, Blyxa, you name it. Each have their own agenda for going red and they may or may not coincide within the same tank. Some plants are _more likely_ to go red, such as R. macandra, L. glandulosa, Ammania senegalensis and gracillis, and of course, Althernanthera.

In general, these latter species will go red if CO2 and nutrients are in good shape, while the others are a little bit of a lottery because we haven't pinned down the exact combination of factors yet. Also, these and many other plants may not turn red but may turn other colours such as yellow and orange.

The real path to success is to learn how plants grow in your tank and how they adapt to your technique. Understand first how to grow healthy plants and don't get too hypnotized or tunnel vision about getting this colour or that colour. I think people get so mesmerized by the idea of red that they lose the plot entirely. 

I absolutely never worry about getting a certain colour and yet my plants produce a pot-pourri of colours that I never previously imagined possible. That's because I focus primarily on getting them as healthy as possible and I just enjoy what they return to me. In so doing they reward me by revealing their secrets.

















Cheers,


----------



## Anonymous (9 Mar 2011)

There are few tricks to get the plants red:

- use pinky lights combined with cold ones, they improve red
- keep N at 5-10ppm and P more than 1ppm (careful with N shortage)
- up the CO2 a lot
- dose ADA ECA or similar, Dennerle also has some good trace stuff
- grow them bend to stones not in soil
- wait for the plants to reach the water surface or keep lights close to the water surface or have a shallow tank (30 cm or less)
- you don't need lots of light, this is usually mistaken, with full EI I've upped the t5 lights to 2w/l without difference in coloring.

In the end I'd advice you first to grow them healthy and green and then try to get them red.

Cheers,


----------



## ceg4048 (9 Mar 2011)

clonitza said:
			
		

> - use pinky lights combined with cold ones, they improve red


This may or not actually improve red pigmentation in the plant. Shining a red light at anything makes it "look" more red, that's all. But it is a nice optical illusion.



			
				clonitza said:
			
		

> - keep N at 5-10ppm and P more than 1ppm (careful with N shortage)
> - up the CO2 a lot


Easy to say, virtually impossible to accomplish consistently. How does one monitor and enforce Nitrate limits? Using a test kit? Not a good idea at all. It's not really even true for most red species. In fact, the more CO2 you add the higher your N needs to be. Run, do not walk, away from this path.



			
				clonitza said:
			
		

> - dose ADA ECA or similar, Dennerle also has some good trace stuff


I'm not even going here. Good trace stuff like what, Iron? Magnesium? I can get good trace stuff for 1/100th the price.



			
				clonitza said:
			
		

> In the end I'd advice you first to grow them healthy...


Yep, this is the most important of all.   

Cheers,


----------



## Anonymous (10 Mar 2011)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> I'm not even going here. Good trace stuff like what, Iron? Magnesium? I can get good trace stuff for 1/100th the price.



I'm not sure mate what in what quantity does this or the other, I'm no chemist or biologist unfortunately 

*Dennerle specs:*

*E15*
K2O – 14,04%,
Fe – 3,75%,
Mn – 1,08%.

*V30*
K20 –  1.00%,
MgO –  0,3018%,
B –  0,021%,
Cu – 0.006%,
Fe – 0,306%,
Mn – 0,122%,
Mo – 0,012%,
Zn – 0,006%,
Co – 0,002%,
Ni – 0,002%,
Li – 0,003%,
Al – 0,002%,
V – 0,0015%.

*A1 Daily*

K2O – 1.00%,
MgO – 0,3%,
B – 0,022%,
Cu – 0.006%,
Fe – 0,32%,
Mn – 0,127%,
Mo – 0,013%,
Zn – 0,007%,
Co – 0,002%
Ni – 0,002%,
Li – 0,004%,
Al – 0,002%,
V –0,0015%.

*A1 Daily NPK*

N -2,17%,
P2O5 – 0,31%,
K2O – 1.00%,
MgO – 0,31%,
B – 0,02%,
Cu – 0.006%,
Fe – 0,291%,
Mn – 0,116%,
Mo – 0,012%,
Zn – 0,006%,
Co – 0,001%
Ni – 0,001%,
Li – 0,003%,
Al – 0,002%,
V – 0,0015%.

*Plantagold 7*

N - 4,74%,
P2O5 - 0,29%,
K2O - 0,23%,
Fe 0,24%

Accurate specs are found here (Aquaristik -> Pflanzenpflege).

Cheers,


----------



## ceg4048 (11 Mar 2011)

Hi Mike,
             Yeah,these are all about the same as the chelated mix you can get here for a fraction of the price => aquariumplantfooduk chelated trace element mix





One doesn't have to be a scientist or biologist. One simply has to try the various products and compare their performance. If there is little to no difference in performance then why pay big bucks? This and other bargain products like this are all I ever use and I don't have any trouble whatsoever getting colors or more importantly, getting good plant health, as you can see in the photos.

Now of course these aren't all exactly alike. Some mixes have a little magnesium and other have more or less Iron and so forth. With the exception of Mg, the Ingredients that count the most are included in that cheaper product:
Fe 8.2%
Mn 1.82%
Zn 1.16%
B 1.05%
Cu 0.23%
Mo 0.15%
This is all you need from a trace mix, and what it doesn't have you can find cheaply elsewhere, like Epsom Salts for Magnesium. Look at the percentages. They are an order of magnitude higher for some elements automatically making this product 10X cheaper just on face value alone. In actual practice it's something like 100X cheaper and it does at least as good a job, especially if you are using tap water.

Cheers,


----------



## Anonymous (11 Mar 2011)

Hi mate,

Thanks for replying. 

I've always wondered if the extra metals in Dennerle fertilizers count to something or plants use what it's available for their development. In regard of chelators I know there's no much difference which is used but how about the other things in the commercial fertilizers (ADA, Dennerle etc.) like "plant enzymes" "acids" "magic stuff" etc. (marketing works well ..) what are they? how they are produced and how they are used by plants? Do they count? And my final question what do I have to change in my dosing routine when I prune heavily the plants. I've always had development issues afterward (I dose NPK and trace mix plus and starting from yesterday Mg from Epsom salts).

Hope my questions help bjorn too.

Cheers,
Mike


----------



## ceg4048 (11 Mar 2011)

Hi Mike,
              Well, you know stuff like Aluminum and Nickel and so forth are found in the tap water or in the sediment. Believe it or not, clay is constructed of Aluminum, Silicon and Oxygen. The amounts of these other metals that the plant may use are incredibly small. The main metals that are in the basic trace mix are the ones that are used in THE most important chemical reactions.

For example, one of the main functions of water (H2O) is as a source of Hydrogen (H+). The plant strips the water in a process called "Hydrolysis". It strips the H+, which are basically just protons and sends them to an area where they collect and build up to create an electrochemical potential in exactly the same way that a battery works. This "voltage" is then used in other reactions to build certain important proteins. The bubbles you see as "pearling" is the remains of the action of the OEC. When the two hydrogen atom are removed from H2O, the remainder is O.

In order to strip water of it's Hydrogen the plant uses an incredible protein called the Oxygen Evolving Complex (OEC). The key elements in that protein are Manganese (Mn) and Calcium (Ca). Again, the ratio of Manganese to the other elements in the OEC is very small, but it does have to be present.

This is one of the reasons that soft water is not good for plants generally, because soft water is deficient in Calcium and deficient in these other metals. Plants living in these soft water areas have to find other ways of obtaining the metals they need.

These other ingredients such as enzymes and so forth are also redundant. This is not to say that they are useless. Enzymes are constructed of amino acids which simply rot in the water and break down into their constituent elements such as Nitrogen, which the plant can use. But I mean, we are already feeding the plant NPK, and the job of plants is to make enzymes and proteins. That's what they do. That's why they are important. That's exactly why an animal the size of an elephant or a hippo can live on just plants alone. Why on earth would you need to give a plant enzymes? Just feed it the basic elements, CO2, NPK and trace... and the plant will figure out what to do from there.

Cheers,


----------



## Anonymous (11 Mar 2011)

Thanks mate, you've solved some of my wonders, again!   
You don't really want to know how Matrix works in our local forums 

BTW you should write a book sometime (If you didn't already). 

Cheers,
Mike


----------



## ceg4048 (13 Mar 2011)

clonitza said:
			
		

> Thanks mate, you've solved some of my wonders, again!
> You don't really want to know how Matrix works in our local forums


Well, I don't have to  speak Romanian to know exactly how they work. The Matrix works the same regardless of language. The basic programing architecture is a web, woven from disinformation, self deception and propaganda. The more confused and frightened someone is, the more likely they will spend money buying a product to feel secure. 

I first realized this some time ago when I walked into an LFS and saw this product called "Aquarium Salt" which, on closer inspection was exactly the same as table salt (NaCl) and which was 10X the supermarket price. People were actually buying this stuff in droves because they felt safer buying the product from an aquarium shop. Incredible...

Cheers,


----------



## Anonymous (14 Mar 2011)

Yeah, I know some myths & legends too mate 

Back to our red plants, as far as I've seen most of the trace fertilizers that are supposed to "improve" the coloring have more iron, manganese and magnesium than "regular" fertilizers (for instance Aquatic Nature - Aqua plant Plus, the only "color enhancing" trace that I've tested a long time ago, when I've switched to EL Profito the plants turned yellow-green from orange-red). How do this trio works together? I've also noticed that shallow thanks are more prone to induce red coloring in plants than deep tanks (tested >1w/liter T8s over a 20-30cm deep tank).

Also another one how TDS influence plant growth, can high TDS stun plant growth? (In regard of dosing EI and do small water changes).

Cheers,


----------



## ceg4048 (14 Mar 2011)

clonitza said:
			
		

> ...Back to our red plants, as far as I've seen most of the trace fertilizers that are supposed to "improve" the coloring have more iron, manganese and magnesium than "regular" fertilizers (for instance Aquatic Nature - Aqua plant Plus, the only "color enhancing" trace that I've tested a long time ago, when I've switched to EL Profito the plants turned yellow-green from orange-red). How do this trio works together? I've also noticed that shallow thanks are more prone to induce red coloring in plants than deep tanks (tested >1w/liter T8s over a 20-30cm deep tank).


Well, as I mentioned coloring is not solely dependent on any one trace metal, however, if you do not add sufficient levels of trace elements then you run the risk of trace deficiency. Many trace deficiencies such as Magnesium, Manganese and Iron affect chlorophyll production or activity. As a result, loss of of chlorophyll vigor results in yellowing or pale colors generally. Most commercial trace liquids are very weak if used per bottle recommendation in a high light, high CO2 environment. Therefore, it may simply be that a given product is weaker than another and that the plants simply suffer chlorosis due to trace deficiency.  This may have nothing to do with red specifically but is simply a deficiency syndrome characterized by yellowing. The solution is to dose more of the weaker trace. This is another illusion of The Matrix. Yellowing of a plant due to trace element deficiency is a symptom of poor plant health. Forget about red. There are more ramifications to poor plat health than just the fact that there is loss of red. The fact is that loss of red should be the least of your concerns. Food production, oxygen production, enzyme production and many other important functions of the plant are being undermined. Loss of red is merely a symptom of a much more profound failure.

So, adding an amount of trace that is higher than the minimum threshold will contribute to returning the plant to optimal health, and in so doing the proper colors will also return. But The Matrix sells this as some kind of magic red potion because it convinces people to pay less attention to the fundamentals of plant husbandry and instead to worship the superficial trappings of health.



			
				clonitza said:
			
		

> Also another one how TDS influence plant growth, can high TDS stun plant growth? (In regard of dosing EI and do small water changes).


Well, here are some plants growing water with KH above 15, GH above 25 and TDS of approximately 500ppm, conductivity approximately 780 microsiemens. In these shots the water's surface is about 24 inches from the top of the substrate and the stems required constant trimming.















Cheers,


----------



## Anonymous (15 Mar 2011)

Right mate, so TDS has nothing to do with plant growth, unchecked it  from the Matrix's list.

Also in regard of ADA and Dennerle I see where others fail, these producers have precise schedule for dosing where others don't, so you are more prone to laziness when dosing the "lesser" brands and when you fail you blame it on the fertilizer not on you ...  

I've wanted to tell you that dosing Mg really shows some sign improvement, the pale green is starting to be replaced by a stronger one and some growth is visible, unfortunately this test is made in a low tech so I must have a little more patience ...

Thanks,
Mike


----------



## ceg4048 (15 Mar 2011)

Yes things happen much more slowly in low tech but the principles are the same. As you say, the more prominent brands do provide schedules for people to follow. That's because they know that most folks don't really care about knowing all the fine details of plant growth. Just tell me what to add and when. It's the same as owning a car. Most just want to get in it and to drive to their destination. They don't need or care to know how the car works. They just need a schedule to tell them when to add petrol and when to add oil...

Cheers,


----------

