# Can I mix



## xandro007 (8 Jun 2016)

Can i mix this without a reaction in RO water





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## rebel (8 Jun 2016)

I heard it can be done but it all depends on concentration of each. 

Titan would be very difficult to fit into a large enough bottle....


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## xandro007 (8 Jun 2016)

Why


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## ian_m (8 Jun 2016)

No, which is why EI dosing is done micro & macro on alternate days.

The phosphate reacts with the micro, namely chelated iron and precipitates out as insoluble and plant unavailable iron phosphate.

You must dose on alternate days. Also watch out urea is very toxic to fish.


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## xim (8 Jun 2016)

I've tried mixing my micro and macro in a vial and left it overnight, no precipitation.


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## xandro007 (8 Jun 2016)

I'm ask this because I want to make the Ada brighty step 2 Ada brighty K and Ada brighty special light all in one 


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## xim (8 Jun 2016)

Just noticed you listed K2CO3, then I think you can't. Because even ADA warn against mixing Brighty K with other ferts.
K2CO3 is highly basic. I'm not sure if it is a worse enemy to chelated iron than phosphate or not. You can try it.


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## xandro007 (8 Jun 2016)

I will do some test


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## ian_m (9 Jun 2016)

xim said:


> e tried mixing my micro and macro in a vial and left it overnight, no precipitation.


You won't see the precipitation as it is a micro fine powder of iron phosphate that stays in suspension, so possibly a slight cloudiness. Can only be revealed by testing for iron, using a proper lab grade test kit, and you will find no plant soluble iron present.

Also some micro's contain acid (ascorbic acid) to stop the micro solution going mouldy and/or unchelating, thus when mixed with phosphate it wont react. However your potassium carbonate will neutralise the acid allowing the iron (and other chelates) to react.


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## dw1305 (9 Jun 2016)

Hi all, 





ian_m said:


> However your potassium carbonate will neutralise the acid allowing the iron (and other chelates) to react.





xim said:


> I've tried mixing my micro and macro in a vial and left it overnight, no precipitation.


That is right, if you keep the solution acidic then you won't get the precipitation of insoluble hydroxides and phosphates. 

Why do you want to use K2CO3?

cheers Darrel


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## xandro007 (9 Jun 2016)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> That is right, if you keep the solution acidic then you won't get the precipitation of insoluble hydroxides and phosphates.
> 
> Why do you want to use K2CO3?
> ...


I Will keep the solution acid 

I want to use k2c03 because Ada use it 
So I think it is the best way to ad potassium because Ada did many test


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## xim (9 Jun 2016)

xandro007 said:


> I Will keep the solution acid
> 
> I want to use k2c03 because Ada use it
> So I think it is the best way to ad potassium because Ada did many test



I don't think it's the best way to add K. I think ADA use it just because it has good solubility.

All ADA ferts dosages are standardised to 1 ml per 20 litres of water. And with that dosage,
you will get 3.4 PPM of K from Brighty K. They can't do that with K2SO4 without changing the
dosage and breaking the standard they set because it's not very soluble.

By the way, I've found that the K from KNO3 I dose is enough for my tank. I think Tom Barr is right.
You don't need to dose as much K as NO3 in PPM number. Because NO3 is N accompanied 
with O3 while K is only K which makes it disadvantageous in PPM number.


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## ian_m (9 Jun 2016)

xandro007 said:


> I Will keep the solution acid


Might want to consider adding potassium sorbate to act as a mould inhibiter as micro can be prone to go mouldy.


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## dw1305 (9 Jun 2016)

Hi all,





xandro007 said:


> I want to use k2c03 because Ada use it
> So I think it is the best way to ad potassium because Ada did many test


It honestly doesn't make any difference where the K+ ion comes from. The potassium (K39) on Earth has been here for the last 4.5 billion years, it is highly reactive and it doesn't "remember" which compounds it has been combined in.

The same with HCO3- ion, the constituent elements can, and will, have been combined in millions of other molecules.

Each potassium (K+) ion is exactly the same as every other K+ ion.

cheers Darrel


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## xandro007 (9 Jun 2016)

Thanks for al the help I think I will separate all the solutions like Ada did 


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## xim (9 Jun 2016)

ian_m said:


> Might want to consider adding potassium sorbate to act as a mould inhibiter as micro can be prone to go mouldy.



E202 is potassium sorbate. But it needs an acidic environment to work well enough.


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## Straight Shooter (9 Jun 2016)

Precipitation: You will rarely ever get total precipitation of Fe and PO4 dosing at the same time. We spout this info over and over but no hobbyist that I know of has tested this theory properly. It's only academic, not particularly a fact that the new compound forms completely rendering dosing useless if macros and micros are dosed together. This is even less of a problem with mixes of EDTA DTPA etc where there are a number of chelates,


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## xandro007 (9 Jun 2016)

But Why do ada and tropica doses fe and po4 on 1 day 


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## Straight Shooter (12 Jun 2016)

I also find the "dose macros in the morning and micros in the evening" a bit silly too. The PO4 will reduce a little during the day due to plant uptake, but it is not any 'less-effective' at precipitating Fe from solution in the morning or at night.

So levels of PO4 do fall during the day, but PO4 is very good at staying put in the water column. It's an anion, and little is lost to the negatively charged substrates etc, hence why phosphate is such a PITA in water treatment. It's difficult to get rid of it in comparison to other ions. Nitrate is similar although the famous 'denitrification' by anaerobic bacteria is our friend here if necessary.

Potassium (K+) is much different as a cation as an example, it's encouraged OUT of the water column. PO4 will stay in the water column of your tank for weeks (or months, or a year....), so long as plants don't use it or you remove it with a water change etc.

Add iron at any point and you'll get FePO4 forming immediately. Strength of chelates (and a mix of them) makes a huge difference in this regard. The Fe is held up 'in-prison' and the PO4 can't get to it. Overtime the chelates break down and the PO4 will readily start reacting with iron. PO4 may have been added 12 days ago, but it will still begin this process of reaction with Fe immediately.

If I had an auto-doser I'd dose Fe just before lights-on where the light assists in making it available to plants. This ensures that maximum Fe is available for photosynthesis. As I rely on doing it by hand, and I've done it for many years, I can't be bothered dosing daily, just every 2 days and macros + micros at once. PO4 will likely still be in there from your last dose (if non-limiting nutrients are your thing), you're just topping up, don't worry about when you dose it. 

I followed the advice to avoid dosing Fe and PO4 together for a LONG time... then I got lazy and dosed them together and guess what... there was no problem. Nothing changed, plants looked exactly the same, strong red plants, no cloudy precipitation etc. It's been a few years now and I'm still lazy and everything still works just fine.


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## dw1305 (13 Jun 2016)

Hi all,





Straight Shooter said:


> .... but PO4 is very good at staying put in the water column. It's an anion, and little is lost to the negatively charged substrates etc, hence why phosphate is such a PITA in water treatment. It's difficult to get rid of it in comparison to other ions.


It definitely is difficult to remove, although the problem is with the total amount, the water soluble fraction is a tiny percentage of the total reservoir. Usually you precipitate the orthophosphate (PO4---) out with iron oxide hydroxide etc. The aquarium version would be <"Ultiphos P"> or similar. 





Straight Shooter said:


> Add iron at any point and you'll get FePO4 forming immediately. Strength of chelates (and a mix of them) makes a huge difference in this regard. The Fe is held up 'in-prison' and the PO4 can't get to it. Overtime the chelates break down and the PO4 will readily start reacting with iron. PO4 may have been added 12 days ago, but it will still begin this process of reaction with Fe immediately.


That is the one, we have to chelate iron, as soon as the chelator is photo-degraded the Fe+++ ion will form insoluble phosphate, hydroxides etc. Plants don't need a huge amount of phosphorus (P) (about 1/10 as much as nitrogen (N) & potassium (K)), and even less iron (Fe), so limited availability (as long as some is available) isn't a problem.

*Natural environment bit*
Phosphorus is actually fairly reactive, it depends on the pH of the water, if you have alkaline water then the orthophosphate (PO4---) will combine with calcium to form insoluble calcium phosphate complexes. This will only become plant available under reducing conditions (in the substrate). The various phosphate ions have a high anion exchange capacity, and most phosphate is actually getting into water bodies bound to clay minerals via surface erosion of Maize fields etc. Optical brighteners in washing powders are less of a problem now, due to changes in legislation. 

The problem for natural environments is that the world is awash with unnatural levels of phosphorus, which is building up into a huge reserve that (only sparingly) becomes soluble. In the UK it is estimated that it would take 1000 years to deplete this phosphorus reserve to back-ground levels, if we stopped adding phosphorus to the environment today.  

The phosphorus surplus for the UK is estimated at 5 kg P ha-1 (from <https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...achment_data/file/291507/scho0512buwf-e-e.pdf>). 

cheers Darrel


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## pablo (19 Jun 2016)

I really appreciate Straight Shooter and Darrel's comments. Helps me learn much.

Why is phosphate so dangerous in the environment at elevated level? What damage does it do?


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## dw1305 (19 Jun 2016)

Hi all, 





pablo said:


> Why is phosphate so dangerous in the environment at elevated level? What damage does it do?


It naturally occurs at low levels in most environments, and because it  doesn't have a gaseous phase (and very low solubility), it remains in the place where it was deposited.  This allowed large deposits to build up where you combined a dry climate with ocean up-welling zones and lots of colonial sea-birds.  In the 19th and early 20th Century these deposits of "guano" were mined  as a source of PO4, and most phosphate fertilisers are still obtained from rock deposits laid down in fossil seas.

Phosphates are really a fossil resource like fossil fuels, and <"we are using them at a rate thousands of times quicker"> than they are naturally being replenished.

Nutrient limitation leads to biodiversity, and plants have evolved symbiotic mycorrhizal relationships to <"scavenge scarce PO4"> from the soil. As soon as PO4 is freely available, conditions change and and a much more limited range of organisms benefit. These include grasses, both perennial pasture grasses and annual cereal crops, and many non-palatable weeds like Stinging Nettle, (_Urtica dioica_) and Docks (_Rumex_ spp.). Once you've added the PO4 you can't put the genie back in the bottle and you are locked into a cycle of fertilisers and herbicides to remain productive. This is fine in most agricultural situations, but if that PO4 ends up in non-agricultural situations it leads to a change in plant community, which is why many of our rivers are now bordered by <"huge stands of Stinging Nettles">.

Aquatic plant growth has been known to be phosphate limited for some time, and the addition of PO4 leads to "blooms" of phytoplankton, that reduce light to submerged macrophytes, leading to a situation where you get a cycle of huge algal blooms followed by algal death and de-oxygenation, followed by an algal bloom etc.

cheers Darrel


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## ian_m (20 Jun 2016)

If you want to find out (a lot) more about phosphorus, both good and bad uses, this is a very readable general science book.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Shocking-H...TF8&qid=1466408965&sr=1-1&keywords=phosphorus

Also explains why a large amount of phosphate dumped into the English lakes makes the fish fatter, but in the American lakes makes the lake go green and everything die (hint industrial polution...).


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## Easternlethal (20 Jun 2016)

pablo said:


> Why is phosphate so dangerous in the environment at elevated level? What damage does it do?



It's never really about the levels but the rate at which it is used or cycled. It's the same for any nutrient. Carbon,  nitrates,  sulphates. Any tank that doesn't cycle those things properly will have issues.


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