# Richards First Scape



## Richard40 (9 Feb 2020)

*History*
I’ve been keeping fish for over a year now and have a community tank. I’ve kind of just bought fish in the past for buying sake to make the community. Recently reading about plants and aquascaping has turned it into a bit of an obsession, as I’m always striving for the tank look better.

*Tank Size*
It’s an Aqua One 80, so 135 litres as I’ve taken out the back of the tank. Instead of spending loads on a new tank I decided after reading more and more about aquascaping to try my own tank using some redwood and lots of plants. I knocked all the back plastic out of the tank so I could change for an external filter.

*Current Filter *
I have been running a JBL Cristal Profi e702 for a year, but recently ordered an Oase 600 Biomaster thermo which hasn’t been delivered yet.

*Current Lighting*
Im currently running a Fluval Plant 3.0 light on the tank.

*CO2*
I’ve never used CO2 until recently when I purchased a CO2 art dual regulator with fire extinguisher.
The tank has had a weeks worth of CO2 running.

*New lighting and pipework (not fitted yet)*
I’ve also bought an Aquascaper glass pipework set with surface skimmer and Twinstar 600SA which again hasn’t been delivered yet with controller to set the timings.

*Plants*
Plants I’ve planted so far are Monte Carlo, micrantheum umbrosum, microsorium pteropus, lagenadra red, cryptocoryne willisii, limnophila hippuirdoides.

*Yet to plant *
Staurogyne repens, rotala H’ra, Hygrophila araguaia, Alternanthera Reineckii, Anubias petite, Hydrocotyle verticillata, rotala green, rotala rotundifolia.

*Aquascape (started 2nd February shown in picture)*
I had to do the aquascape whilst moving the fish. Took my Unipac micro gravel out and replaced with Tropica Soil. Temp is 24 degrees. So far I’ve done an 80% water change whilst rescaping and done two 50% water changes midweek.

*Substrate*

Tropica Soil

*Fish and Numbers*
I think I’ve too many fish in there to be honest but unsure as will be running a bigger and better external filter. I have ember, rummynose, phantom, emperor, neon tetras.
3 pearl gourami, two female and one Male. 2 bristlenose plecs, 4 corydoras, 2 pyjama loach, 1 L236 plec, 8 glass catfish, 2 Siamese algae eaters and some baby apistogramma.

*Issues*
I’ve noticed a lot of the Monte Carlo floating and lots of bits on the surface. I think though that it was because I planted with my fingers rather than tweezers, so lesson learnt there.

*The Dream*
What I want is a carpet of Monte Carlo, plants doing great with some great colours and fish to be healthy to prove to myself that I didn’t need to buy an new tank and cabinet to replace my old one I guess.


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## Richard40 (11 Feb 2020)

Having trouble with Monte Carlo. Finding most of it’s lifted, bits floating all the time. When I planted it, it had no water in the tank. Used Tropica 1-2 and cut into small pieces and planted. As you can see from pic tonight, there’s barely any left. CO2 running and lime green colour drop checker. I did use my hands to plant rather than tweezers. Could this be the problem?


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## Richard40 (11 Feb 2020)

Hole in Lagenadra Red also. Any ideas?


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## Barbara Turner (11 Feb 2020)

Can't you keep replanting the monte carlo? i know its painful even with a good pair of tweezers.

Are you running EI ferts?

Carpets are high maintenance and not an easy thing to start with, I had a full monte carlo carpet but got rid of it when I re-scaped.


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## Barbara Turner (11 Feb 2020)

Richard40 said:


> Hole in Lagenadra Red also. Any ideas?


I can't see this picture, some melt when you first put in new plants isn't uncommon. normally they will grow back..  the normal advice is to rim off any damaged leaves.


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## Basviola (11 Feb 2020)

About planting it is possible to do with the fingers, but it will be pain in the ass long term.
You need tweezers for sure, especially for stems as you might snap/break the stems with your fingers.

Stems you often won't to plant close and dense to get the look many are going after. In that case I like to grip 2-3 stems at once and plant together. Doing this with either one or multiple stems close together in a larger area you can easily pull up the up the surrounding stems when pulling out the tweezers. Or ofcourse the stems you was just planting.
The goes for planting carpeting plants like MC and so on.

Trying to counter this I like to do the following:

get the plant as far down as possible, according to what makes sense ofcourse!
while still having the tweezers down in the dirt, opening the tweezers so that the dirt will fall in around the stems/plants.
Sliding down my hand that holds the tweezers and push/hold the plant in place with my 'pointing finger'.
Then slowly little by little pull out the tweezers.
Hope it makes sense, at least it is how I plant now after a lot of trial and error.

Other stuff to consider:
A new substrate in a new tank holds a lot of air bubbles the will escape and help pull up your plants. that is why many tap or stair their substrate before planting. This will make a mess for some time!!

I have had problems with MC flooring too... I did not took a close look at your list of fish, but I got into aquascaping having a kids tank with amount ohter fish ancistrus sp. And I think theise help a lot with the uprooting before the MC actually became rooted in the substrate.

It helped me placing some temporary stones among the plants (what ever you can find will do)
You can place them in the gaps between plants.. you know the spots where you hope the smaller clump of MC will spread into and finally grow together.

All this being said I have only had real success with growing MC emersed, so if this could be an option for you you should consider a dry start. Don't know how the rest of your plants will respond to that.

I have a dry start going right now, that have giving me loads of MC that I soon will try transferring into my other tank... with all the bully's! (acistrus)

Hope this helped you some how. Have fun!


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## Richard40 (11 Feb 2020)

I’ve been replanting any floating stems, but a lot implantable. I’ve bought another two pots of Monte Carlo so will try again with tweezers and see how I get on.

I am using TNC complete 10ml a day.


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## alto (11 Feb 2020)

Aqua One 80 dimensions 80cm x75cmx40cm (WxHxD)
- most planted tanks you’ll see online and in those amazing contest photos are “opposite” dimensions, ie, tank height rarely exceeds depth, nevermind being almost twice depth
This brings challenges of lighting and “good” flow (especially for substrate plants)

George Farmer’s ADA 45H aquascape tutorial 

Micranthemum  'Monte Carlo' is a good choice for the carpet BUT with your present fish in tank, it will be a challenge to establish
Adding an upper layer of Tropica AS Powder will help hold small/fine plants in place BUT the substrate “sifting” activity of the corydoras and loaches will still tend to uproot small plants

Given the number and types of fish, I recommended using as many “pot” plants as possible, 1-2-Grow/Tissue Culture are usually much more delicate stem and leaf structure - can you find any “mat” versions of MC?
(I’ve seen mats for HC, Lileaopsis, Eleocharis - AG should know what’s UK available)

M umbrosum (one of my favourite) should establish fairly quickly - though it often has minimal roots - definitely split up that bunch, instead planting groups of 3-7 stems a few cm’s apart 
To avoid uplift by fish, plant a few cm’s deep
(In some of his videos, you can see how deeply Filipe Oliveira sinks stem plants into the substrate)
You can use the same method with the MC - if it arrives quite “short”, just allow it to grow in the cups - you should see daily growth - then sink into the substrate with just 1-2cm visible
The new Twinstar light should improve substrate PAR, though you will have some shading at tank ends as light unit is only 60cm so plan for this in your planting


Is there any way you can remove some of your fish to a temporary tank?
When the new filter arrives, you can split the “cycled” media between both filters, so any temporary bin (any food grade plastic, just choose suitable dimensions) could also have a running filter


As this is new Tropica Soil, you needn’t worry so much about water column fertilizers - for the 130 litres (which is likely less than 100l actual water volume). I’d add 10-15ml Tropica fertilizers per week ... and I often don’t begin fertilizers for 2-4 weeks depending on plants etc 
(Tropica recommended dose is 6ml/50l per week) Sorry I’ve no experience with TNC 

For Water Changes in a Planted Tank - I strongly suggest following Tropica’s 90 Day App with water changes at least every 3rd day (ADA recommends daily water changes up to 90%)
https://tropica.com/en/guide/get-the-right-start/
If you observe visible plant melt/debris, a 50-75% water change is recommended 
If there is any “melt” of your Cryptocoryne, it will quickly happen to the entire grouping, so trim leafs back to  ~1cm  


(You mentioned using a mix of RO/tap so obviously this is much more involved than if just using tap, note if you can remove livestock while establishing plants, most plants are happy to grow in most water conditions- and daily water changes can take ~10min using a system such as Python No Spill Clean & Fill Gravel Cleaner 
Note I just start the syphon and drain water to the garden etc, then refill from tap to tank, adding sufficient Prime etc for entire tank volume- even when only doing a 50% water change))

Tropica has an excellent series of Plant Handling Videos, showing growth and trimming as well


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## alto (12 Feb 2020)

Richard40 said:


> *Fish and Numbers*
> I think I’ve too many fish in there to be honest but unsure as will be running a bigger and better external filter. I have ember, rummynose, phantom, emperor, neon tetras.
> 3 pearl gourami, two female and one Male. 2 bristlenose plecs, 4 corydoras, 2 pyjama loach, 1 L236 plec, 8 glass catfish, 2 Siamese algae eaters and some baby apistogramma.


Well done on acquiring an L236 pleco  
I’d make sure he has a suitable “cave”

I suggest limiting your tetras to a couple species, this would allow you a decent shoal number of each (nice for watching behaviours you won’t see when fish are kept in smaller numbers)
If you do prefer that brilliant mix of tetras, I’d rehome the Pearl Gouramis (your tank is very overstocked, not just in terms of bioload but also “space” for individual fish types)

Loaches - I’d set up a separate tank for them or rehome, they tend to be poor plant tankmates (substrate disturbance. physical activity causing bruising of delicate leafs/stems, biting holes in plant leafs, biting through stems etc)
If plants are already established and then loaches are added, plants are much more able to withstand loach “play”
Depending on your loach species, they may be more/less happy as a duo - again check Seriously Fish species profiles or the Loach Forum (awesome Loach source for many years)

Bristlenose plecos - it’s very common for them to rasp plant leafs, so it can be a challenge maintaining good plant growth/minimal algae But some bristlenose can (apparently) be good planted tank citizens (just none I’ve observed  )

SAE - even the smallest mature to ~15cm + and they tend to quickly prefer fish food over algae 
Like loaches they can be a challenge in (especially smaller) planted tanks, they really shine in larger groups in bigger tanks (and can mature to somewhat aggressive/territorial fish, especially when kept in smaller groups in smaller tanks)

Obviously this is your tank so choose the fish you like


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## Richard40 (12 Feb 2020)

Thanks for the detailed replies guys. My thoughts are that firstly I'm removing a lot of my fish stock. Loaches, corydoras, Siamese catfish, Bristlenose plecs, ember tetras, phantom tetras and emperor tetras. I think like you say this will stop the movement on the bottom near the monte carlo which is affecting the growth.

Alto the dimensions are not as deep, 75cm is the cabinet depth, the true depth is about 47cm, however with substrate I measured it this morning at 42cm. I think once the loach etc are gone this week, the monte carlo will be ok especially when the Twinstar light arrives and I get that connected, if not I'll buy some pots on mesh and replant that way. 

Regarding ferts - I've had a couple of holes in my plants so am just dosing 10ml TNC complete each day at the moment to combat that. With my Crypts I cut those down as I had seen the video before I planted. 

I'm experimenting with the water. I bought a hose pipe that I attached to my kitchen tap, turned on the water hot and cold and refilled the first time straight into the tank and added Prime. However, all my phantom tetra have white spot and can only think the water change stressed them that much this is why it occurred. At the weekend I did it slowly through a colander but still need to improve this. Contemplating buying a water pump that I'll place in a bucket in the kitchen sink, pre dose the bucket with Prime and pump the water back into the tank rather than dosing straight in. I believe George Farmer uses this method.


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## alto (13 Feb 2020)

Richard40 said:


> I've had a couple of holes in my plants so am just dosing 10ml TNC complete each day


If plants are recent, and this is occurring in older emerse growth leafs, it’s really just part of the leaf breakdown under aquatic conditions
If you’re seeing damage in new aquatic leafs, it may be nutrient related but also may reflect fish activity 



Richard40 said:


> all my phantom tetra have white spot and can only think the water change stressed them that much this is why it occurred.


I’m sceptical of this
While Ich may be present in fish in very small numbers, it usually takes more than a water change to trigger an outbreak 
In another thread you mentioned


> Tested nitrite, ammonia and nitrate recently. 0 nitrite, 0.25 ammonia and low nitrate


I’d sooner suspect this water report and the overcrowding creating sufficient stress ..... or if you’ve added any fish (or plants) in recent weeks 
(I prefer in vitro plants as there is no chance of fish disease - many lfs will end up placing some fish in plant tanks, or will go from hands/nets in fish tanks to hands/nets in plant tanks ..... I’ve even seen (very) ill fish in plant sale tanks)

I’ve used a Python System for years with no apparent issue - I add 1-2 X Prime dose for entire tank volume (and more as I’m near a Chlorine Dosing Station) as I refill the tank
I mix hot/cold to a few degrees below tank temperature (never add hotter water) depending on how much water I’ve removed, I’m much more careful of matching when doing an 80% water change (than a 50%)
I add the water back at a good rate (pretty much top tap speed But my water pressure is only moderate) running it through an Eheim inlet tube


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## alto (13 Feb 2020)

As you’ve Ich in the tank, wait to rehome fish as even those without obvious spots will have higher levels of parasite (and the stress of net-bag-transport-new home will likely trigger an exponential increase in parasite levels)

You can (safely) remove fish to a treatment tank as long as water quality is maintained and the temporary bin is suitable size etc
Expect Ich life stages to remain in the planted tank for a couple weeks even if all fish are removed


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## Richard40 (18 Feb 2020)

Been a week now and most have lost the white spots. Turned temp down to 24 as getting a lot of leaves floating on the surface. 

I have Tropica soil in there but considering some Tropica Soil Powder to help the roots for some of my plants. Thoughts?
Having to turn down CO2 as PH has reduced more than I wanted and I have had a couple of fish jump out.


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## Richard40 (18 Feb 2020)

New plants in bar two Reineckii due tomorrow. Twinstar light fitted. Oase Filter starting up tomorrow. Guess just got to allow to grow now.


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## Zeus. (18 Feb 2020)

CO2 is a tricky beast, which most folk struggle with some time. Seeing your new to CO2 the most culprit is fluctuating CO2 levels during the photo period

For it to work for plants it needs to stable from lights on for the first 4-5hours is the most critical time and it needs to be consistent.



ceg4048 said:


> if you are struggling with CO2 stability, or are having difficulty keeping high concentrations, then it's best to focus efforts on the first half of the photoperiod and not worry so much about the second half. If you are running very strong lighting then you are really pushing the plants and it's necessary to have the CO2 going. After 4 hours, if you turn the gas off, the water stays saturated for a couple of hours after the valve closes and the concentration trails off. So if you have an 8 hour photoperiod and you turn the gas on 2 hours before lights on, you can turn the gas off after 6 hours. So the gas is still running for 8 hours but it's on-off cycle is offset by the amount of time you turn it on prior to lights on.





ceg4048 said:


> We know that Rubisco is hugely expensive and consumes a lot of resources to produce and to maintain. In low tech tanks, where the CO2 concentration is low there is a much higher density of Rubisco in the leaf because you need more of the protein to capture the small amounts of CO2. In gas injected tanks, the Rubisco density in the leaf is lower.





ceg4048 said:


> we know that when the plant senses that high concentrations of CO2 is available, it responds by reducing the production of expensive Rubisco. When it senses a lower CO2 concentration it must increase Rubisco production, however because this protein is so complicated and heavy, the increased production requires 2-3 weeks in order to change the density in the leaf to match the new gas concentration level. So it is much easier to reduce production than it is to increase production. When increasing gas injection therefore, it hardly takes any time to see an improvement in health. When lowering the concentration, the plant will suffer because it must now ramp up Rubisco production to account for the loss of CO2 availability.



So the pH needs to be stable otherwise the plants are changing their Rubisco concentrations all the time and can run out of energy and the plants suffers leaves die and algae loves dying leaves and thing get out of control.

The higher the [CO2] the more plants thrive but your livestock wont so 30ppm CO2 is considered safe which is the green colour on your DC ( Drop Checker)


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## Richard40 (18 Feb 2020)

So my Twinstar is on the settings attached. Drop checker had been a nice lime green colour. 
CO2 comes on at 2pm. Lights on at 4.15. CO2 goes off at 9.30pm. 
Are these decent settings?


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## Zeus. (18 Feb 2020)

Richard40 said:


> Are these decent settings?



Yes and unknown.

The Unkown part is how stable is your pH and the light intensity

Need to do a pH profile. Take pH from before lights on every 30mins till CO2 off. I aim for a stable pH of no no change in pH to within 0.1pH.

When you pH is stable then you can say if your DC is green 2hrs after lights on your [CO2] is 30ppm for photoperiod


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## Richard40 (18 Feb 2020)

Not entirely with you. Check the PH at 3.30 say then 6 and 9pm? Or every hour?


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## Zeus. (18 Feb 2020)

opps  missed the 30mins times period in post


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## Richard40 (18 Feb 2020)

Ok I’ll try and do this tomorrow as did a 50% water change earlier.


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## alto (18 Feb 2020)

From the photo, you may want to further split your grass portions
Jurijs mit JS shows excellent Eleocharis mini planting technique in this video
- this type of planting seems to trigger the grass to “fill in” the space (more quickly) between adjacent clumps, also growth appears more natural




Richard40 said:


> CO2 comes on at 2pm. Lights on at 4.15. CO2 goes off at 9.30pm


When is lights off?
It’s usual to stop CO2 a couple hours before lights off, so that nighttime CO2 levels are lower - of course one can just increase surface agitation to the same end

Your plant mass is quite low in the tank, so monitor fish for CO2 distress
It’s less tricky when staring a scape with no livestock and loads of plants, as over indulging in CO2 has little consequence; for your tank, I’d ensure gentle surface agitation (slight rolling movement rather than calm) so water oxygen levels remain maximized

Between the ich (higher temperature water has significantly less dissolved oxygen) and injected CO2, fish have likely been somewhat oxygen stressed - which may have triggered the jumping



Richard40 said:


> Turned temp down to 24 as getting a lot of leaves floating on the surface.


Most plants seem to prefer lower temperatures, especially when still transitioning form emerse to submerse growth, established plants are more tolerant in general




Richard40 said:


> have Tropica soil in there but considering some Tropica Soil Powder to help the roots for some of my plants. Thoughts?


A top layer of small particle soil does tend to increase density of carpeting plants, it also grabs/holds plants more firmly than the larger particle soil (Tropica Soil also tends to become more water saturated and less “floaty” over several weeks (rather than just a few days))
It’s common in scaping videos to see “Powder soil” used at the front of the tank and wherever smaller plants are used (especially if using in vitro or tissue culture plants)

Once you’ve seen the last visible ich (spots), continue increased water changes and close syphoning of substrate areas (but don’t lift/uproot plants) for a couple weeks - frequent water changes is good planted tank technique as well, and especially helpful in minimizing algae during the first weeks


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## Richard40 (19 Feb 2020)

Lights off is 10pm and my CO2 is running till 9. Plant mass looks low at the moment as newly planted and crypts were cut down. Fingers crossed everything starts to come together soon. I’ve been doing 50% water changes for almost 3 weeks now. Think I might purchase some soil powder to put in between the tanks- it’s pretty expensive!


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## Richard40 (19 Feb 2020)

New filter and Aquascaper glass pipework set is fitted. Just need a smarter cabinet! 
Would the tropical soil powder be difficult to use now my plants are planted. Umming and ahhing whether to buy a 3 litre bag.


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## Richard40 (19 Feb 2020)

Zeus. said:


> Yes and unknown.
> 
> The Unkown part is how stable is your pH and the light intensity
> 
> ...



Zeus do you have a PH tester kit you can recommend or do you use a PH probe?


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## Zeus. (19 Feb 2020)

I use a Hanna pH pen


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## Richard40 (19 Feb 2020)

A top layer of small particle soil does tend to increase density of carpeting plants, it also grabs/holds plants more firmly than the larger particle soil (Tropica Soil also tends to become more water saturated and less “floaty” over several weeks (rather than just a few days))
It’s common in scaping videos to see “Powder soil” used at the front of the tank and wherever smaller plants are used (especially if using in vitro or tissue culture plants)

Would it be possible to put powder down now after planting?


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## Richard40 (27 Feb 2020)

Hi all, water in my planted tank is turning cloudy even after a 50% water change. I changed my filter over 9 days ago so it’s bedding in, moved old sponges over. I’ve put more plants in which all need to bed in. Do I have anything to worry about?


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## Richard40 (27 Feb 2020)




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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (1 Mar 2020)

How is this doing now? Looks like a bacterial bloom which should probably be well on it way to sorting itself out by now...


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## Richard40 (1 Mar 2020)

Yes it’s a lot clearer thanks. Plants and fish doing well, although still need to reduce numbers.


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## Richard40 (1 Mar 2020)

Thoughts on my latest stock. Have drastically brought down numbers to 35. 

1 L236 Plec
1 bristlenose Plec 
6 rummynose tetra 
2 female pearl gourami 
1 Male pearl gourami 
8 Neon tetras
4 Apistogramma Borelli 3 of which are baby fish
8 glass catfish 
4 black phantom tetra 3 Male and 1 female


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## alto (1 Mar 2020)

Well done on the tank so far 

Just for fun, an opposite livestock style aquarium (note the 12+ black phantoms )

Jurijs’ Kong Island Final Maintenance
60 x 50 x 40cm (H)

Those Apisto borelli will grow up soon, so you still need to count their adult size (& spatial needs), though these are among the most peaceful apisto, you may want to note sex of the babies (I’m assuming you bred these fish)

Glass catfish - general recommendation for these is ~ 15l/ fish as they are sensitive to water conditions, so for long term health it’s recommended to keep them in a lightly stocked tank
While you could reduce their number to 6, you might see a shift in behaviour, they seem happy and visible in the tank right now 

Pearl gourami - you know I keep suggesting their removal as they are the largest fish, and are also quite substantial so contribute significantly to your bioload

Rummynose tetra - by reading through the Notes section, you should be able to tell which of the 3 species sold under this common name you have (care is quite similar though behaviour is anecdotally quite different)

Neon tetra - the smallest fish you have, though I’ve seen them grow quite massive when overfed 
Aqualog Blog entry because this little fish really did change the hobby

Black phantom tetra - a brilliant fish, I’d like to see a group of at least 7-8 (adding 2 more females and 1-2 males) BUT only if you reduce fish numbers first

Bristlenose pleco - again one of your more substantial fish (and he’s likely not a favourite of the Apisto’s  especially once they’ve grown and want that bottom _space_), and one I’d not keep in a smaller planted tank, of course you may feel a personal connection and if you do want to keep him, I’d add a couple pieces of less branchy wood laying along the substrate towards the back so that he has some cave choices and some decent chewing options 

L236 pleco - I’ve linked the COTM article, obviously lots more info on this at Planet Catfish and other specialists sites
I’d choose this guy over the BN  and suspect he may be receiving some intimidation tactics from the BN, again I suggest adding more driftwood - at the moment you seem to have a single central wood section, I’d add some pieces trailing back towards the back left corner, also a piece back right, and perhaps also left middle (open spot)

I suggest reading through all the linked Seriously Fish Profiles, and remove fish which seem less compatible or may have different requirements

Some suggestions  (keeping L236, I assume you’re also keen on the Apisto borelli)
Option A - 3 pearl gourami, 7-8 black phantoms, apisto
Option B - glass catfish, 7-8 black phantoms OR 11 rummy nose OR 13 neons, apisto
Option 3 - mixed tetra 5-7 black phantom, 6-8 rummy, 8-10 neon, apisto
etc
35 smaller fish would be fine in your setup, but you have a few more substantial fish and unless you want to move up to a larger tank (eg the Aquascaper 900 would give you both more bottom surface area and upper swimming area), I encourage you to reduce the fish volume
Even with twice weekly 50% water changes to maintain good water quality, I feel tank will go sideways at some point as the fish are just too crowded


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## alto (1 Mar 2020)

A must read article for those interested in the “zebra plecos” or “L236” 

https://www.reef2rainforest.com/2014/04/05/chaos-in-black-white/


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## Richard40 (2 Mar 2020)

alto said:


> Well done on the tank so far
> 
> Just for fun, an opposite livestock style aquarium (note the 12+ black phantoms )
> 
> ...



I'm thinking Option A as the colours of the pearl gourami are so good and love the apisto. I will keep one male and one female apisto. I'll get more black phantoms. I already have 3 male and one female so would you recommend 3 female and one more male?


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## alto (2 Mar 2020)

Not what I was expecting 
I was really just throwing some (quite random) options out there 

I’d likely pick up 2 M & 2-3 F black phantoms, as the males seem to spend more time chasing each other
I’d likely try to keep 1M 2 F borelli (make sure there are extra caves rather than just enough)


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## Richard40 (2 Mar 2020)

alto said:


> Not what I was expecting
> I was really just throwing some (quite random) options out there
> 
> I’d likely pick up 2 M & 2-3 F black phantoms, as the males seem to spend more time chasing each other
> I’d likely try to keep 1M 2 F borelli (make sure there are extra caves rather than just enough)



Which option were you expecting?!

There's so many plants in there, not really room for caves!


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## Richard40 (2 Mar 2020)

Also, you mentioned more driftwood, again I'm not sure I've room now. What pieces and how small would you go?


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## Richard40 (2 Mar 2020)

Or throw a spanner in the works get a couple of angel fish and keep neons?!


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## Richard40 (2 Mar 2020)

35 smaller fish would be fine in your setup, but you have a few more substantial fish and unless you want to move up to a larger tank (eg the Aquascaper 900 would give you both more bottom surface area and upper swimming area), I encourage you to reduce the fish volume
Even with twice weekly 50% water changes to maintain good water quality, I feel tank will go sideways at some point as the fish are just too crowded[/QUOTE]

With the Aquascaper 900 I could fit that in the space of my current one, but would mean taking all the plants out, fish, soil out and starting again. But I guess I could keep all the fish!


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## Conort2 (2 Mar 2020)

As already mentioned a larger tank would be much better with your current stock. The L236 will require a rock cave or specialist plec cave, wood has been mentioned but all the hypancistrus from the Rio xingu really need rocks. They’ll use wood if there is nothing else but rocks should really be used. Not sure how big it is but that and the bristlenose May cause issues with digging up and disturbing plants.

cheers

conor


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## Richard40 (2 Mar 2020)

Am considering a larger tank, but would need to sell mine and move all the plants, soil etc. I have a Plec cave which is at the back of the tank. Am taking the Bristlenose back this weekend as he has been digging.


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## Tankless (2 Mar 2020)

The angelfish will eat the neons as a snack. I would avoid mixing the two.


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## alto (3 Mar 2020)

Richard40 said:


> Or throw a spanner in the works get a couple of angel fish and keep neons?!


No 

Though angelfish that are raised from very small juveniles (1 cm body size) to maturity with a group of small tetras will often not predate THOSE small tetras (I tried to increase my shoal of harlequin rasboras twice, each time all the “new”rasboras disappeared, finally caught the angels nighttime hunting  - they paid the rasboras no apparent attention during daylight hours), keeping just 2 angels is often a fraught adventure
(You could begin with a group of 6 angels, then keep the most stable duo, while they may possibly still have a “breakup”, they’ll often remain compatible)

I’d recommended a tank height of 50-60cm for angels, they can get BIG with tall fins (standard fin angels will have significantly shorter fin height than veil fin angels)


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## alto (3 Mar 2020)

Richard40 said:


> Am considering a larger tank, but would need to sell mine and move all the plants, soil etc. I have a Plec cave which is at the back of the tank. Am taking the Bristlenose back this weekend as he has been digging.



It’s much easier to 
remove fish to a temporary bin, 
carefully remove all plants and store appropriately, 
transfer soil to new bigger tank, 
add the additional soil and rescape (you’ll want more hardscape materials as well), 
plant (extra plants too), 
allow tank as much time as possible to settle (2 days - 2 weeks), 
transfer fish (some of which could be kept for more a few days together in the bare Aqua One 80, though I suspect all of them together in a bare tank for more than a couple days, would be stressful if not subject to aggression - obviously you could move the small tetras over earlier, then include some plain terracotta pots/plastic pipe etc for hiding places in the bare tank)

Definitely not as easy as setting up a tank from scratch (when you’ve no fish etc to consider)

Given your current tank is 80cm x 40cm x 47cm (H), I’m rethinking the EA 900 (which I always think is 50cm tall), you might do better with a 100 x 50 x 50cm aquarium (it seems a fairly standard size, and would be cheaper than a 120cm length), though most wont be optiwhite glass (like the EA 900)

Or perhaps a second EA 600 aquarium for the Apisto’s  

But really, I’d just downsize the current inhabitants and run your present tank for a year or so, before considering bigger/more tanks
Most of those fish are ones which could be purchased again when you’ve more tank space


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## alto (3 Mar 2020)

Richard40 said:


> Which option were you expecting?!


That you’d ignore mine and create your own 



Richard40 said:


> There's so many plants in there, not really room for caves!


Plants will grow over and around caves 

Arbitrarily choosing AG for example 
Bogwood, small to med, you can combine small piece to create a larger cave, I’d expect the Apisto and plecos to dig what they wanted given the wood base to start
River wood, small 
etc

As Conort2 pointed out, check that your present pleco cave is suitable for your L236


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## Richard40 (3 Mar 2020)

Conort2 said:


> As already mentioned a larger tank would be much better with your current stock. The L236 will require a rock cave or specialist plec cave, wood has been mentioned but all the hypancistrus from the Rio xingu really need rocks. They’ll use wood if there is nothing else but rocks should really be used. Not sure how big it is but that and the bristlenose May cause issues with digging up and disturbing plants.
> 
> cheers
> 
> conor


What type of rock do I need to buy? Taking the Bristelnose back this weekend and 8 neons.


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## Richard40 (3 Mar 2020)

alto said:


> That you’d ignore mine and create your own
> 
> 
> Plants will grow over and around caves
> ...


Can you send a pic of a typical cave I need to buy and bog wood? 
Taking the Bristlenose back this weekend so left with the L236


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## Conort2 (3 Mar 2020)

Richard40 said:


> What type of rock do I need to buy? Taking the Bristelnose back this weekend and 8 neons.


Anything pretty substantial, when I kept hypancistrus I used rounded boulders however these don’t look the best for aqua scaping. They would probably be happy with something like mini landscape rock or even drags on stone provided the pieces are big enough for it to hide under completely.

I would stack them a few rocks high to form some nice natural caves, as @alto mentioned the plecs will happily dig their own caves around the rocks too. 

cheers

Conor


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## Richard40 (4 Mar 2020)

So Twinstar is only at 50%. Been using Ei fertiliser kit with macro and micro nutrient bottles for recommended about each day. 23ml for 135 litre. I’ve started to get some black beard algae on the driftwood. What am I doing wrong? Started to get some decent plant growth other than the carpet at the front.


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## alto (4 Mar 2020)

Can you post a few pictures?

That’s always easier than the back and forth questions 

Where is the Twinstar located?
Which plants are in the carpet? and has there been any fish activity causing growth loss? or is it light related? 

I assume your CO2 has remained on the yellow side of green?
Do you see the dropchecker solution changing color? eg, more blue after CO2 is off?

Water changes (one of your most effective strategies against algae during tank startup)
How often? How much?

Wood 
New? this seems quite fast for BBA - can you take a decent shot of the algae (during a water change with lowered water level maybe)

Are you comfortable treating with Excel or peroxide?

You mentioned returning the neon tetras (& bristlenose) this weekend, I’d suggest further reducing your bioload, not just for the fish (which has been my main concern) but also it will make establishing the tank with minimal algae, easier


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## Richard40 (5 Mar 2020)

I’ll post a few pictures after work tonight. I’ve been doing a 50% water change every week now, usually on a Sunday.
Twinstar is located in the middle to cover the whole tank. Plants in the carpet are Eleocharis acicularis. I think some of it has lifted and I’ve tried to re plant, some had been moved because of the BP.
The CO2 is coming on at 12, lights on 4, has been a lime green colour at this point. Not really checked the colour when turned off.

The wood is the same piece of driftwood since the start. Treat with excel??? You mean to the water?

I’m taking the 8 glass catfish back as well to further reduce numbers to 20.


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## alto (5 Mar 2020)

Ohhhh the glass cats - I’ll miss them 



Good for you making some choices 
(not easy)

Now that you see visible algae, increase water changes, at least 50% - daily if you can, remove any melting/damaged leafs (careful not to “pull” to disturb developing roots) - pick up a cheap “waterproof” electric toothbrush for cleaning the wood etc (George Farmer demonstrates in a recent video ) 

Pick up some Seachem Excel (more stable than some alternates), sort out the volume for your tank (I just use the tank volume and don’t worry about the slight excess re safety margins in dosing, you can always add half the dose, monitor fish etc, then add the second half dose)
https://www.seachem.com/flourish-excel.php

Use a syringe to deliver the Excel directly to the BBA, if wood is out of water during water change, even easier, syringe Excel onto BBA, wait min or so, refill tank as usual 

Excel Tx of algae 
(there are other examples, but FO also has a follow up video some days later)


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## Richard40 (5 Mar 2020)

I know love the glass catfish as well

I’ll use the electric toothbrush tonight and start to do a 50% water change daily. How long will I need to do this for? I’ll be able to take out the wood and can clean it and add the seachem Excel to the BBA out of the water.


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## alto (5 Mar 2020)

If you can treat the wood in situ, this is probably better - can’t imagine lifting wood without disturbing the substrate and stressing fish - also returning it to position

If you see algae, continue increased maintenance - usually water change is one of the cheapest and most effective treatments
Also rinse filter weekly if possible (again while actively combatting algae)

Once tank settles, and you see good growth on all plants, and algae is less visible, start down shifting maintenance schedule


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## Richard40 (5 Mar 2020)




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## alto (6 Mar 2020)

That neon hasn’t been skipping any meals 

definitely BBA - is this after the electric tb?
I’m lazy so I’d just add Excel to treat
After 1-3 days you’ll see the BBA turn purple though pink depending - shrimp etc will often clean it up at this stage
(you could also add a few small SAE to worry at the BBA, but they get big etc so you’d need a rehoming strategy (also they naturally consume more meaty foods as they mature) - this is an easy technique for a shop, not so efficient for individuals


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## Richard40 (6 Mar 2020)

Yes hes an older neon that I've had over a year!

No I tried the electric tooth brush but it's very stubborn! I will add excel tonight with a syringe like you said. I've bought some mini landscape rock which need to arrange this weekend also. All the other plants are showing good signs of new growth. 

I've had 2 SAE before and have taken them back to the LFS a few weeks ago, they got massive!


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (11 Mar 2020)

Richard40 said:


> So Twinstar is only at 50%. Been using Ei fertiliser kit with macro and micro nutrient bottles for recommended about each day. 23ml for 135 litre. I’ve started to get some black beard algae on the driftwood. What am I doing wrong? Started to get some decent plant growth other than the carpet at the front.



Gut instinct here but that sounds like an awful lot of fertiliser for your tank size!!


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## Richard40 (11 Mar 2020)

It says 10ml per 50litres of water.


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## CooKieS (11 Mar 2020)

Couldn’t get anything but algae with those ferts...plus you’ll need to put the twinstar at 100% to get the plants to eat all that liquid food.

I would recommend stop dosing N and P, just dose K for now


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## Richard40 (11 Mar 2020)

Even with weekly 50% water changes? The Twinstar is only at 50% at the moment as it’s only been in there since Feb 14th. 
I’ve changed to 10ml of TNC complete. But I was told with this there isn’t enough nutrients in there and I should start using fertiliser that you mix to also make it cheaper.


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## Richard40 (11 Mar 2020)

alto said:


> Ohhhh the glass cats - I’ll miss them
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## alto (11 Mar 2020)

Well done on the fish reduction - not an easy thing

Maybe post some photos, full tank shot (FTS) and closeups of various plants
Twinstar 600S?

You still want to stay on top of water changes as the pearl gourami are a large fish (each one being equivalent to a few tetras) but it no longer sounds like a crowd 

As you’ve the individual elements, you might use Adrie Baumann’s nutrient suggestions (as your starting point)
(the mg/ml are printed onscreen)

Bonsai Tree Aquascape Tutorial with Adrie Baumann


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## Richard40 (11 Mar 2020)

So he suggests the amounts below. I’ve been making up the ferts for macro and micro dosing. So I’m unsure whether it’s too much and whether this is right. No mention of Iron or am I being thick?


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## Richard40 (11 Mar 2020)

Twinstar 600S?

You still want to stay on top of water changes as the pearl gourami are a large fish (each one being equivalent to a few tetras) but it no longer sounds like a crowd 

Yes it’s a Twinstar 600S

Contemplating taking the gourami back and getting more rummynose tetra.


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## alto (12 Mar 2020)

Give aquariumplantfood uk a shout, they should have the ppm delivered per dosing instructions 

Confirm what’s in the micro mix - maybe iron is here? If so confirm what sort of chelation is used (suitable for harder, more alkaline water?)


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## alto (12 Mar 2020)

Richard40 said:


> getting more rummynose tetra.


they would look better as a larger shoal


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## Richard40 (16 Mar 2020)

I got the glass catfish back as taking the gourami back! Growth is looking good especially the stem plants and now mid ground plants. BBA has almost disappeared thanks to the seachem Prime. I do have some small snails though so wondering what’s best to do with them?


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## Richard40 (17 Mar 2020)

How do I wipe out the snails?


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## Tankless (17 Mar 2020)

Just keep the decaying plant leaves to a minimum and do not over feed. That will keep the population in check. I only got rid of my snail population when I swapped tanks.


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## dw1305 (17 Mar 2020)

Hi all, 





Richard40 said:


> I do have some small snails though so wondering what’s best to do with them?


You can <"trap them">. 





Tankless said:


> Just keep the decaying plant leaves to a minimum and do not over feed. That will keep the population in check.


That is good advice. There are also Assassin Snails (_Anentome helene_) if you have <"reasonably hard water">.

Personally I'm <"a snail fan">, so I just tend to remove any <"stray Pond Snails"> (_Lymnaea stagnalis_), but keep the Ramshorn (~ _Planorbella duryi_), Malaysian Trumpet Snails (_Melanoides tuberculata_), Tadpole Snails (_Physella acuta_) and River Limpets (_Acroloxus lacustris_).

cheers Darrel


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## alto (17 Mar 2020)

What sort of snails?
I’m surprised your Apisto borelli don’t keep the snails in check (will usually just eat the sweeet young things)

Snail limitation through food deprivation is difficult - I had essentially shut down a tank for a few months (dim or dark, cold, no filter, few inches standing water) and the ramshorns snails (that I’d not seen a single one while tank was up and running) were in the dozens


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## Richard40 (19 Mar 2020)

Unsure of the snail type. The Borelli doesn’t seem to be interested. There are quite a few. I’ve taken a picture to try and see what snails they are. Also got a bit of green algae on the glass. Two 50% water changes a week at the moment.


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## dw1305 (19 Mar 2020)

Hi all, 





Richard40 said:


> see what snails they are.


They look like <"Ramshorn snails">.

cheers Darrel


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## Richard40 (19 Mar 2020)

So best way is to clear debris and not overfeed really as any fish that will eat them will also not be good for a planted tank.


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## Richard40 (20 Mar 2020)

Is there any snail fish eater I could buy that doesn’t affect the plants and substrate?


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## alto (20 Mar 2020)

For now I would just crush any small ones you find - your fish may even get interested - and remove larger snails
You might place a lettuce leaf (choose a more robust leaf such as romaine etc) and then collect congregating snails

Ramshorns snails are decent algae crew


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## Richard40 (20 Mar 2020)

Ready to buy some lettuce tomorrow!

As of tomorrow fish stock will be


10 rummynose tetra 
3 Apistogramma 1 Male 2 female 
8 black phantom tetra
8 glass catfish 
L236 Plec 

total 30

Am I ok with these numbers in my tank?


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (29 Mar 2020)

Just noticed no one responded to this... from your first post I can see you have a 135 litre tank. I always minus 10% for hardscape etc... so 120 litres. Approximately 120cm fish stocking availability (basic measure this but...) and you have

~30cm rummynoses
~14cm apistos
~24cm black phantoms
~64cm glass catfish (assume 8cm length but can get larger)
~12cm Plec

so 80cm of fish without the glass catfish
And too much with them!!

I would likely go for returning 2 rummynose and 2 glass catfish, possibly a female apisto to get down to approx 120cm and see how things go from there.


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## Richard40 (29 Mar 2020)

Or I could take the glass catfish back and get something in its place. They shoal well and look good but they don’t tend to do much and explore other than to stay in their tight shoal.


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## Richard40 (30 Mar 2020)

Was thinking I could get some nano fish instead like any of these three. If I replaced with the glass catfish and took a female Apisto back. Would leave with 76cm total, leaving 44 spare? 

Threadfin raindbowfish
Danio erythromicron
Danio margaritatus


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## Richard40 (30 Mar 2020)

Update on the tank, been doing two 50% water changes a week.

Has some brown algae on the glass and glass inlet and outlet pipes. I’ve been wiping this off the glass every day and off the pipes every couple of weeks.

Also some green algae on my Anubias.

Reverted back to dosing with Ei products instead of TNC complete, Macro and Micro dosing alternate days for 6 days a week. Started doing this last weekend.

Had been 6 weeks since the Twinstar was on so that was moved to 60% on the 20th March. 

Also finding it stressful doing the water changes. I’m fine getting the water out as I’m using a hose pipe and inset pipe. I then dose with Prime straight into the tank. 

When I’m putting the water back in I’ve the hosepipe locked to my tap in the kitchen, and at the other end the inset pipe. I’m having to run the water, rush into the back room and start filling up a bucket to make sure the temp is ok, I’m getting it to 24 degrees. It’s total guess work.
Once I’ve got the temp ok, I’m letting the water back into the tank via a colander so it doesn’t disturb the tank. 

If there is anything I could do better to help the putting the water back in easier I’d like to know. Maybe a stop tap?


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## Richard40 (4 Apr 2020)

I’m really considering buying an Aquascaper 900 and changing over but worried about setting it up. 
I’d have to set it up with fish in again rather than on its own as I don’t have two filters. 

It’s a much better tank, I could use the plants I already have, driftwood and substrate. Would obviously need more as it’s a bigger tank. 

Really unsure


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## Richard40 (13 Apr 2020)

Hi all, bit of an update on my scape. Trimmed my plants at the back right down, noticed a lot of the leaves were showing green spots or wasting away and some of the tips of the ferns are looking a different colour as if dying or have green spots. This must be something I can address so thought I’d ask for advice to get them green again. I’ve pulled as many leaves off that were green including the ferns.

Since I noticed this I’ve been doing 75% water changes every 3 days, this is only the second one I’ve done in 6 days so far. I’ve been dosing Ei ferts, micro one day and macro another day to their letter of law what they send out to you. It’s 23ml daily.

Maybe the leaves aren’t getting enough CO2, I’m not sure but sure someone will help clear it up. CO2 is coming on at 12, lights on at 3.15 till 10. Drop checker is lime green by 3.15/3.20 and stays that way until 10. So 7 hours and Twinstar is at 70%.

I have my neo diffuser on the left side of the tank, and the glass outlet lily pipe at the other side in the middle. Circulation via the Oase is at least three quarters flow. Lots of the bubbles are reaching the surface and staying there on the left hand side.

I still have slightly too many fish in there but can’t do anything about that at the moment. Currently at 36 until I can take 11 back.

Feeding wise Mon, Wed, Fri is either flake or pellet and a Plec pellet for two minutes. Tues and Thurs one block of frozen live food. Sat and Sun I don’t feed them.


Any help would be appreciated.


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## Richard40 (2 May 2020)

So update for my first scape. Took the Seiryu stone out and replaced with Staurogyne Repens to act as a boundary between Eliocharis Mini and the piece of driftwood. After cutting down the Limnophila Hippuiroides they are starting to turn a nice red colour.

I replanted my crpyts and added some Helanthium Quadricostatus and Ludwigia Rubens Red. Lastly, I took all of my Eliocharis up as I’d planted it way too thick and this wasn’t giving the runners enough space and all competing with each other so it was growing but not as fast as it should be. Re planted it with more space and less of it, so hoping now the CO2 is stable that this spreads and a lot quicker.

I added some zebra nerites in and although they have left some small white eggs on the driftwood, they have done an amazing job cleaning up. Also, I added another 5 amano’s taking them up to 9.

I will add a couple of pictures of the tank later when the lights are on.

I did two weeks of 70% water changes every 3 days as had quite a bit of Green and Brown algae. I added a Twinstar Steriliser as well to help combat this and added some Seachem Purigen into the filter. I moved to two 50% water changes which I’m in the first week off at the moment. I will be doing another week doing this and maybe then move to one.

Found the water changes miles easier using an Oase water pump to get the water back in, I use George Farmers method using a bucket and dosing the water before it gets put back in and this is far easier. I was really struggling with this using a hose pipe straight form my tap and finding the water was changing temp mid water change and therefore causing stress to the fish.

It’s been a huge learning curve for me, regarding planting, lighting, planting locations, water quality, maintenance, water changes, additional sunlight and light from the room (which I think caused the green algae and BBA). A lot of which I’d have been stuck if it wasn’t for this forum. So I thank everyone for all their help as the plants now seem to be growing well and some great plant growth. I guess it didn’t help it was a rescape and I had to do this when all the fish were present.

Lighting is at 60% and on between 4.15 and 10.15 so only 6 hours. I’m unsure if I should up this at all now the CO2 has been stable for over a week. I have read that every 5 days to up the percentage and over a period of 4 weeks move the photo period up to 8 hours. Something I’m still unsure of.

It’s made my passion for scaping even more so and has led to me also creating my second scape in a 60P tank at the moment and hoping to do the hardscape and planting having learnt a lot from my mistakes, feedback on here and reading peoples journals or questions and also from watching videos on YouTube during lockdown.

I think to where I’ve come starting with a BIORB (yes massive mistake) a few years ago, to a decent starter tank the Aqua One Nano which I have now, to upgrading for a wedding present to myself an Aquascaper 1200 next year (Already cleared it with the missus).

I’ll leave you with a couple of pics of my Male and female Apistogramma Borelli. Well proud of these. I’m still overstocked and need to either sell or return 8 glass catfish and two female apistogramma as I’ve one Male and 3 females (very lucky guy). Once those numbers are down I think I can leave the tank to grow and just wait to transfer them to the 1200. Another thing I’ve learnt, less is more and again this is from feedback on here. It’s easy to get carried away creating a community tank and seeing different colours of fish or fish for different levels of the tank but sticking to just a few species makes the tank a lot healthier and also the fish. All in all a lot of lessons learnt, and that’s coming from a teacher.


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