# Bacteria and plant symbiosis



## jarcher1390 (27 Jan 2017)

HI All

Not sure if this is the right forum (maybe a mod can move it to the right one) to ask this but does any one know if there is any symbiotic relationship between aquatic plants and bacteria.

Here is the background to my question.

I manage a aquatic shop and we have a popular brand from America who have a product which contains a blend of photosynthetic, mineralising, nitrifying and they are NOT in a spore state in the bottle (like hagens cycle) bacteria.  Now long story short i have been using this stuff in store on our systems and its great stuff for fish, sludge busting and getting rid of nitrates. 
Today the sales rep came into our store to do training with us and were giving us the low down on this product. But never mentioned plants. so when asked about planted tanks and this product. this is what he had to say 

(I'm paraphrasing btw) the bacteria in the bottle will do the following for plants, break down waste sludge (less algae), break down triglycerides (fats/oils) (get rid of oily surface). He also said that the bacteria can photosynthesis wavelengths that the plants cannot, what this means is that the bacteria can get into the plant leaves and photosynthesis producing sugars which the plant can then feed on and grow from.

I know that terrestrial plants like legumes have a symbiotic relationship where they can assimilate nitrogen from the bacteria in the roots, i also know that photosynthesis assimilating CO2 is used to produce sugars so this symbiotic relationship in aquatics plants and bacteria seems feasible.

Can someone who isn't bias (like the rep) shed some light onto this if this is true/flase/or poorly researched.

I need to know because i do not sell stuff that i do not understand and think it is not worth it. Basically if i don't use it i don't sell it.

So is this product too good to be true? can it do what the rep told me? Can some one shed some light on this?

Thanks In advance

Jonny


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## Julian (27 Jan 2017)

Sounds like that bottle will do everything frequent water changes will do.

I'm no scientist, but it really does sound too good to be true. I imagine there is some truth to what he says, but I've never used or needed a product like this to maintain a tank.


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## jarcher1390 (27 Jan 2017)

Just to let you know what this product has in it it has the following:
Rhodopseudomonas,
Thiobacillus thiooxidans,
Pseudomonas citronellolis,
Alcaligenese Obligat aerob,
Flavobacterium aquatile,
Nitrobacter winogradski,
Nitrosomonas europaea,
Nitrosomonas mobilis,
Comamonas testosterona,
Bacillus pumilus
Clostridium nitrophenolicum

Can any one shed light on these in relation to my question, I'm fully aware of some of the species but not other.

this I'm gonna have to give this a try for a test period see how the plant/aquarium does

Thanks in advance

Jonny


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## jarcher1390 (27 Jan 2017)

Julian said:


> Sounds like that bottle will do everything frequent water changes will do.
> 
> I'm no scientist, but it really does sound too good to be true. I imagine there is some truth to what he says, but I've never used or needed a product like this to maintain a tank.



Thats mainly my point of view. Ive never needed it before sooooo do i really need it now? Or am i missing out on something that can make my tank truly amazing?


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## sciencefiction (27 Jan 2017)

I am no expert on what each bacteria in this product can do but there's tons of research out there and it all sounds plausible to me.
Check out for septic tank bacteria being used in aquariums...There's info out there with similar results. The tank's water and filter media clears up considerably..Fish get healthier...etc....The different bacteria in these break down a vast range of harmful things to usable substances for plants and also benfit fish (same bunch of bacteria is in pro-biotics as well as in septic tank treatments  )I am going to try it myself on one of my tanks as soon as I get around to it. The stuff produced for aquatics is mostly the same, just better marketed and more expensive. So I am aiming at some locally produced cheap septic tank treatments that do not contain anything other than the bacteria they state it does...a bit of research and e-mails is needed but there are plenty natural products to choose from.


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## zozo (27 Jan 2017)

https://www.britannica.com/science/bacteria/Growth-of-bacterial-populations

Rhizobiaceae


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## limz_777 (27 Jan 2017)

by any chance its dr tim products ?


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## AndyMcD (28 Jan 2017)

I wonder if he's got a bit confused here. Blue green algae is an example of a type of bacteria (not algae) that captures energy through photosynthesis. There is a theory that plants evolved from cells consuming or absorbing blue green algae cells and gaining the ability to photosynthesise (The Endosymbiotic theory). This would happen over a much longer period of time.

http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/cells/organelles/

Heterotrophic bacteria help to break down waste, for example, proteins to amino acids to ammonia, which helps plants obtain nitrates (after nitrogen cycle) and phosphates (see phosphorous cycle).

However, take a look at the abstract of this paper that suggests plants that get most of their energy through autotrophic photosynthesis of carbon dioxide may also be able to absorb and use other compounds from their environment (act as a heterotroph consuming more complex organic carbon molecules):

http://www.publish.csiro.au/fp/FP13061

"To complement resources derived from the atmospheric environment, plants also acquire essential elements from soil. Inorganic ions and molecules are generally considered to be the sources of soil-derived nutrients, and plants tested in this respect can grow with only inorganic nutrients and so can live as autotrophs. However, mycorrhizal symbionts are known to access nutrients from organic matter. Furthermore, specialist lineages of terrestrial photosynthetically competent plants are mixotrophic, including species that obtain organic nutrition from animal prey (carnivores), fungal partners (mycoheterotrophs) or plant hosts (hemi-parasites). Although mixotrophy is deemed the exception in terrestrial plants, it is a common mode of nutrition in aquatic algae. There is mounting evidence that non-specialist plants acquire organic compounds as sources of nutrients, taking up and metabolising a range of organic monomers, oligomers, polymers and even microbes as sources of nitrogen and phosphorus. Plasma-membrane located transporter proteins facilitate the uptake of low-molecular mass organic compounds, endo- and phagocytosis may enable the acquisition of larger compounds, although this has not been confirmed. Identifying the mechanisms involved in the acquisition of organic nutrients will provide understanding of the ecological significance of mixotrophy. "


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## zozo (28 Jan 2017)

Micobewiki can shed some light on what the most of the critters listed do in nature.. Some are Rhizobias so live in water,soils and symbiotic with plantroots and the for last one listed lives the same and symbiotic with Rhizobias. 

Some others listed are commonly found in soils as nitrobacters, also populated and used in waste water industry.. One of them absolutely needs Ammonia or oxygen, it will rather die very soon if it doesn't have that.  So using some logic than keeping a population of these alive in a bottle it would need to contain both for the whole term of it's shelf life.. ??I don't realy know, but do not realy see that happen somehow.

A few raise some questions in why the hell they would put them in there.. One is solely found in marine invironments, doesn't live in fresh waters.
And the one raising the most questions is the Flavobacterium aquatile which is listed in a family rather potentialy pathogenic to fish..  And the C. testosterona is under scrutinazation as potenialy pathogenic to humans, then it seems a rather risky platform where they ar mixing their wonder elixer.

Those products stating to contain bacteria in the commercial trade are always questionable i guess you need somebody with a rather high degree in microbiology in this field to realy answer your question. If a cocktail like this realy can excist. For us this is rather a very grey area we can mainly speculate about. But studies on the so called filter starters revealed already that they do not make a huge difference, freeze dried is worthless and gels just did very little and nothing significantly different compaired to not using them..

Tho me too, far from the expert you are probably looking for. But in a way i do not realy believe in such bacterial products.. I rather believe when you buy plants, you most likely get the bacteria living symbiotic in its roots and on the plant itself with them for free. Hence if they live symbiotic they are in and on there by nature, that what the word implies.. As well as some strains of the soil bacteria will come with them. And will populate the waterbody and soil on their own devices when time rolls along. Till now every aquarium did and i never used any of those commercialy available bacterial products.

Did you ever try to germinate and aquatic plant from seed? Give it a try and take a seed from Nelumbo sp. They are rather big seeds and show it very clearly, throw the seed in a cup of tap water and within days you'll have a grey stincky lump of bacterial population growing around it 3 times bigger than the seed itself is. Helping it and providing it with with necessities to germinate and grow. Don't ask me where they come from, they are there. Best guess they probaly are in the tapwater or recide in and on the seed waiting dormantly to get to work when the seed gets soaked.

But i do believe in products able to speed such a bacterial cycle up a bit to provide the bacterial population with the proper nutrients to help them increase in numbers.. As i tested it myself with very good results with using rootstimulator to promote rhizioc growth in young plants (cuttings and seedlings). And provide certain nutrients, vitamines, enzymes and hormones also to benefit bacterial growth. Without the lable stating about specific bacterias. It is a product i long time ago firstly tested on terrestrial plants and indeed the seedlings i used it on rooted significantly faster and made much larger and healthier rootsystems in the same ammount of time as the ones who didn't get it. 

Than it can not be bad on aquatic plants as well.. So one day i just sprayed my dry starting tank with this stuf and kept adding it to the water after that in very low quantities +/- 3 ml a week on 40 litres.. I noticed the mosses which solely depend on rhiziods exploding like crazy and witnessed unbelievable growth, especialy the fissidens attached to hardscape grew astonishingly fast in 6 weeks time. The 1 tank i didn't use this stuff the same moss grows significantly slower. And also stoped using it in the tank i started testing and now have to trim the fissidens much less since no longer providing them with this stuff. 

If i was a proprieter of an lfs i definitively would promote and sell this stuff for starting up a planted tank instead of a bottle of questionable bacteria cocktail.


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## dw1305 (28 Jan 2017)

Hi all, 





jarcher1390 said:


> does any one know if there is any symbiotic relationship between aquatic plants and bacteria


Basically all plants form relationships with micro-organisms, some occurred such a long time ago that we regard the micro-organism as an organelle, like @AndyMcD's example of the chloroplast, other like, Marcel's _Rhizobium, _are very long established mutualistic relationships we call endosymbiosis, but there are a huge number more. Plants are leaky structures partially to encourage micro-organisms. 





jarcher1390 said:


> the bacteria in the bottle will do the following for plants, break down waste sludge (less algae), break down triglycerides (fats/oils) (get rid of oily surface). He also said that the bacteria can photosynthesis wavelengths that the plants cannot, what this means is that the bacteria


I'd be pretty sure it isn't going to do any harm. All the listed bacteria are gram staining ones that could be isolated and identified, but there will be countless other micro-organisms also present that they can't identify.

A review of the Archaea in the bottle would be more useful, but much more difficult to do. If we assumed that there are plenty of different Archaea present and they would be a lot more tolerant of adverse conditions.

My suspicion would be that it is a product that is very similar to the septic tank starter mix, that @sciencefiction mentions.

For the bacteria
_
Rhodopseudomonas palustris _is one I know about. It has purple photosynthetic pigments, and you would find it in the rhizosphere zone of fluctuating oxygen levels.
_
Acidithiobacillus thiooxidans _is a sulphur reducing bacteria you get in sewage works etc. I don't think it is relevant to the planted tank.
_
Pseudomonas citronellolis _is a soil living bacteria, I know no more.
_
Alcaligenes _are found in the gut and soils, again I know no more than that they are reducing bacteria, and presumably could occur in the deeper tank substrate.
_
Flavobacterium aquatile _is a soil bacteria, I think they pretty universal in wet places.
_
Nitrobacter winogradskyi _is one of the bacteria that converts NO2- to NO3-, until recently they were regarded as the most important bacteria involved in nitrification, but more recent research has suggested that they have a lesser role under low nitrogen loads.
_
Nitrosomonas spp. _also occur most frequently under high ammonia loadings.
_
Comamonas testosteroni _is used in the remediation of polycyclic carbon compounds, I know nothing else about it.
_
Bacillus pumilus _is a plant symbiont occurring in the rhizosphere, they use it as root dip for tree seedlings etc. as an antagonist for some soil living fungi.

_Clostridium nitrophenolicum _is an anaerobic bacteria that lives in the soil.





jarcher1390 said:


> what this means is that the bacteria can get into the plant leaves and photosynthesis producing sugars which the plant can then feed on and grow from.


I'd be dubious about that one. It may be technically true, but even if it is it will probably be irrelevant.

cheers Darrel


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## Nelson (28 Jan 2017)

Is it this ? .





Sorry,couldn't resist .


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## jarcher1390 (28 Jan 2017)

Nelson said:


> Is it this ? .
> 
> View attachment 102405
> 
> Sorry,couldn't resist .




how did you know it was that? 

hahahaha


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## jarcher1390 (28 Jan 2017)

limz_777 said:


> by any chance its dr tim products ?



No its not. i've never come across Dr Tims stuff they could have similar stuff but i just don't know.


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## limz_777 (28 Jan 2017)

seeing the bacteria in action


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## jarcher1390 (28 Jan 2017)

Thanks everyone for your input. theres so much information for me here to research and digest. and even more questions to find answers to (i love this aspect of science).

The company actually started in environmental clean up of lakes, reservoirs, rivers & canals. They also mentioned developing a product for septic tanks. so must be very similar.

From what I can gather is that the product should have some benefits in the planted aquarium and should promote plant growth. Wether this product promotes symbiosis with plants and does what the guy mention ill leave that for the Microbiologist out there. 

But to be honest seeing is believing so I'm gonna have to test this product out for myself so i have bought this and a couple other from their range to test on my personal newly scaped 230l planted tank. 
Im definitely going to have to test this with an open mind to see if it was worth the money. and hopefully i've not wasted my money on a product blurb. It be great to get a bacterial product that does what it said on the tin.....only time will tell though I suppose.

Thank you all for the non bias open discussion

Regards

Jonny


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## sciencefiction (28 Jan 2017)

Well, let us know what happens


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## zozo (28 Jan 2017)

limz_777 said:


> seeing the bacteria in action




Interesting that Bacillus subtilis i red a little about it and it's a sporophyte, darn resilient surviving skills. Traveling all over the planet found, in soils, dry sands, foods.. They not only help plants but also have positive propperties in animals like chickens and "shrimps", so why not in us as well. for short they actualy everywhere. Since it is found in soils in abundancy they are aslo be found on our patatos and carrots etc. and likely to end up under our fingernails while preparing meals. So with regularly sticking a finger in our tank we likely transfer some them over as well. But since they live about everywhere and symbiotic with plants etc, most likely also on algae and if you for example feed spirulina or other algae based preparations, chances are high you add B. subtilis spores as well. 

But if you still are in doubt, they are for sale as shrimp food.


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## sciencefiction (28 Jan 2017)

zozo said:


> Interesting that Bacillus subtilis i red a little about it and it's a sporophyte, darn resilient surviving skills. Traveling all over the planet found, in soils, dry sands, foods.. They not only help plants but also have positive propperties in animals like chickens and "shrimps", so why not in us as well.



As far as I am aware, most probiotics contain Bacillus species and so does the septic tank bacteria supplements....and those for human consumption too...


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## Easternlethal (29 Jan 2017)

I'm not a fan of adding bacteria because like all things, it needs to have sufficient nutrients in the tank to keep alive and generate sufficient quantities to benefit plants. We all hope that adding them to a new tank will kick start some sort of cycle but with insufficient conditions (organics and inorganics) they may judt as easily die.


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## jarcher1390 (29 Jan 2017)

sciencefiction said:


> Well, let us know what happens



Will do will probably write a we review on it for work.


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## sciencefiction (29 Jan 2017)

Easternlethal said:


> I'm not a fan of adding bacteria because like all things, it needs to have sufficient nutrients in the tank to keep alive and generate sufficient quantities to benefit plants. We all hope that adding them to a new tank will kick start some sort of cycle but with insufficient conditions (organics and inorganics) they may judt as easily die.



I think the idea is to add them regularly, just like one adds nutrients.


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## Easternlethal (29 Jan 2017)

if  it ain't growing naturally then why add?


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## jarcher1390 (29 Jan 2017)

sciencefiction said:


> I think the idea is to add them regularly, just like one adds nutrients.



From my understanding bacterial populations are in a constant flux. A lot of people think that after the tank has been up and running they have a fully mature filter the filter still in flux. So best practice is to add bacterial products when you decided to feed more or when you clean out the filter. This is of course if you use bacterial products personally I think 90% are a waste of time.


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## sciencefiction (29 Jan 2017)

Easternlethal said:


> if it ain't growing naturally then why add?



When humans take probiotics, why do they take them from time to time and not just once or in fact never because they are not naturally in your body? Any bacteria would multiply until they've got something to be had. After that they die but it is not to say their natural food in the tank would no longer be produced at some point in the future....so you just renew the population of bacteria from time to time...


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## PARAGUAY (29 Jan 2017)

Nelson said:


> Is it this ? .
> 
> View attachment 102405
> 
> Sorry,couldn't resist .


Time to reveal what else is in the cabinet under thr tank


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## Easternlethal (29 Jan 2017)

sciencefiction said:


> When humans take probiotics, why do they take them from time to time and not just once or in fact never because they are not naturally in your body? Any bacteria would multiply until they've got something to be had. After that they die but it is not to say their natural food in the tank would no longer be produced at some point in the future....so you just renew the population of bacteria from time to time...



i think u missed my original point


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## sciencefiction (29 Jan 2017)

Easternlethal said:


> i think u missed my original point



No, I didn't.


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## sciencefiction (29 Jan 2017)

Easternlethal said:


> if  it ain't growing naturally then why add?





Easternlethal said:


> I'm not a fan of adding bacteria because like all things, it needs to have sufficient nutrients in the tank to keep alive and generate sufficient quantities to benefit plants. We all hope that adding them to a new tank will kick start some sort of cycle but with insufficient conditions (organics and inorganics) they may judt as easily die.



Which point did I miss?


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## dw1305 (29 Jan 2017)

Hi all,





jarcher1390 said:


> From my understanding bacterial populations are in a constant flux


I think that is likely to be right. The micro-organisms assemblage will be constantly changing, even over a relatively short time scale.

I'm not sure there is any scientific work on planted aquariums specifically (it is alluded too in <"Temporal and Spatial Stability of Ammonia-Oxidizing Archaea and Bacteria in Aquarium Biofilters"> and <"Performance of vertical flow wetlands...">), but I've just read Ed Yong's <"I contain multitudes........"> (a good read) and that has a lot about how variable the human gut micro-flora is, changing in composition almost meal by meal. One of the take home messages from the book is that <"complexity brings stability">, and that our gut flora, in the western world is impoverished compared to people who eat a less processed diet, and very impoverished compared to our great ape cousins. It also has quite a lot to say about antibiotics, and their positive and negative roles in body health. 





jarcher1390 said:


> A lot of people think that after the tank has been up and running they have a fully mature filter the filter still in flux. So best practice is to add bacterial products when you decided to feed more or when you clean out the filter....... personally I think 90% are a waste of time


I think you are right, I don't think it is going to do any harm, but I'm not sure it is going to do any good either.

In an established planted tank, with a substrate, there are going to be a huge number of niches, with different levels of oxygenation, food supply etc., where conditions will favour different micro-organism assemblages, changes will occur as your plants grow, after you've added new fish, cleaned the filter, changed the oxygenation levels etc, but the assemblage will re-adjust to the new conditions fairly rapidly.

That is one reason why "plant/microbe biofiltration" is better than "microbe only" biofiltration, it supplies a wider range of niches.

This paper covers Aquarium filters (although not specifically planted tanks), <"Ammonia-oxidizing archaea in engineered biofiltration systems">, and it mentions increased micro-organism complexity at lower ammonia loadings.

cheers Darrel


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## limz_777 (30 Jan 2017)

zozo said:


> Interesting that Bacillus subtilis i red a little about it and it's a sporophyte, darn resilient surviving skills. Traveling all over the planet found, in soils, dry sands, foods.. They not only help plants but also have positive propperties in animals like chickens and "shrimps", so why not in us as well. for short they actualy everywhere. Since it is found in soils in abundancy they are aslo be found on our patatos and carrots etc. and likely to end up under our fingernails while preparing meals. So with regularly sticking a finger in our tank we likely transfer some them over as well. But since they live about everywhere and symbiotic with plants etc, most likely also on algae and if you for example feed spirulina or other algae based preparations, chances are high you add B. subtilis spores as well.
> 
> But if you still are in doubt, they are for sale as shrimp food.



well i dont mind good bacteria , its mycobacterium i am worried about , i  always wash mine hands after tank maintain .


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## roadmaster (30 Jan 2017)

Product might be of some use in new set up, but I believe most any mature substrate will over time develop all manner of micro organisim's/bacterium, and regular use of the product would be moot point for most.(would/will develop naturally can't stop em).
But some folk's still swear by aquarium salt as regular tonic/ additive.


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## zozo (30 Jan 2017)

limz_777 said:


> i always wash mine hands after tank maintain


Me too and after that i like to go skinny dipping in the lake behind my house.


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## Nelson (30 Jan 2017)

zozo said:


> Me too and after that i like to go skinny dipping in the lake behind my house.


You don't get in your bath tub with the goldfish then ? .


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## jarcher1390 (15 Feb 2017)

Hey All

So been using the bacteria culture plus a new type of liquid CO2

From my observations the bacteria concoction has been destroying the biofilm on top of the tank. i've only been doing done 30% weekly water changes( tank in 3rd week of set up) i have very very limited amount of algae with a constant 10 hours photoperiod, but i have lots of plants although still in early stages and only 8 snails, no fish. Plants growth with just the bacteria was alright no exceptional growth. 

Okay i've gotta admit that my findings here are very anecdotal and i can have no really basis of fact as i had no control or any experimental procedure. But going with just my gut feeling id say that it help get rid of the bio film on top of the water and i got away with very very very relaxed maintenance for the the last 2 week but did plants growth blow my mind? No

So this company also has a new Liquid Co2, it is not like the ones i used in the past which are a clear liquid with the glutaraldehyde in it. Their stuff is a sweet smelling thick brown liquid which is completely safe to shrimp and bacteria. From what i've been told its made from peat bogs or something and 100% natural. Might need to do some more research with this one to what it actually is.  But this stuff works and works well. Each day i used it in the morning, i come back home from work the leaves on my glossostigma are bigger. The days i didn't use it the plants didn't seem to grow as quick, of course they grew as I'm pumping CO2 and fert in but not as much as the days i used the liquid CO2. Again i have no tests or any experimental procedure to show finding buy going with my gut their liquid Co2 was well worth the money.

Anyways thought id chip in my findings.


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## jarcher1390 (15 Feb 2017)

the company blurb on their liquid CO2

Contains high quality peat extract 
Contains humic and fulvic acids   
Contains a blend of naturally occurring vegetative and spore-forming microorganisms
Helps make iron, nitrogen and other nutrients more bioavailable
contains combinations of naturally occurring microorganisms that share key traits for plant enhancement. The photosynthetic organisms will inhabit the root and vascular systems of the plant helping to modify, retain and transport nutrients. Humic is the end product of organic matter decomposition. Organic matter has a high carbon content. When plants are removed from the environment where they are grown, natural balances are destroyed and growth may be disrupted. It is a good practice to restore the plants natural balances"

any thoughts?


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## Easternlethal (16 Feb 2017)

sounds like the manufacturer went into his compost pile, squeezed out some of the moisture, added colouring, preservatives and came out with this blurb.


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## Wizard_g (25 Feb 2017)

jarcher1390 said:


> the company blurb on their liquid CO2
> 
> Contains high quality peat extract
> Contains humic and fulvic acids
> ...



I am using this bio co2 product, and plants look healthy and less bba, considering I am not using co2 or glutaraldehyde.


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## jarcher1390 (26 Feb 2017)

@Wizard_g  our shop has run out of it so I've not been able to use it and the plant growth has slowed.

Think I'm gonna ditch the other liquid co2 for this one for sure.


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