# Apistogramma dither fish



## Millns84 (20 Nov 2018)

Morning all

I've recently turned my 60 litre Dennerle nano cube into an Amazon biotope and have added a young pair of apistogramma cacatuoides triple red.

On Saturday I bought 20 green neon tetras and it has been an absolute disaster. Only 8 are left with one of them not looking like it'll last long so I'm looking for suggestions on alternative biotope appropriate dither fish. 

I'm fairly certain nothing is wrong with the tank... All levels are fine and I've added a couple of almond leaves to bring the PH down which ordinarily sits at 6.8... I'm giving it a few days before testing again to see what the leaves have done. 

So, any suggestions? I'm thinking black neon tetras as I've heard they're quite hardy.


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## Konsa (20 Nov 2018)

Hi
It may have been weak stock.
If I were U I will ask where the fish  came from (I personally avoid Asian imports),how long they have been in quarantine (any treatments)before buying them.I good fish store will provide you with that information easy.As for dither fish I will pick something that will occupy top half of the tank as is small footprint and the apistos  are near bottom.Pencil fish is a good choice
Sth else worth mentioning is where your apistos came from.If Uk (localy) bred they may be already used to tap water and there is no point trying to obtain perfect water parameters.Stability is much more important than constantly changing in pursuit of that ideal value.

Regards Konsa


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## Millns84 (20 Nov 2018)

Thanks Konsa

I was told that the green neons were wild caught and I had seen that they had been in the shop for a couple of weeks. I understand that they can be a little more sensitive so I acclimatised them more slowly than usual.

It's very frustrating as they all looked very healthy and showed no signs of illness prior to gasping at the surface for a few hours and passing away. It could be weak stock, or even the stress of the move I guess. Meanwhile, the apistos are doing great!

I'm told the apisto's were bred in the Czech Republic. In any case, I'm thinking the leaf litter adds an element of authenticity so I'd like to stick with it.


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## Tommy (20 Nov 2018)

The same thing nearly happened with me over the weekend, I was at my LFS and they had the best looking cardinal tetras I have ever seen, there was about 25 of them so we done a deal and I went through to get them the next day. Some of them had a fungal infection on their backs under the dorsal fins so I left them to see how they would get on until Monday. They all died the same day, so I am pleased I never got them.


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## dw1305 (20 Nov 2018)

Hi all, 





Konsa said:


> Pencil fish is a good choice


They are good,  except for _N. beckfordii._


Millns84 said:


> I'm thinking black neon tetras as I've heard they're quite hardy.


They are <"a good dither"> for _Apistogramma cacatuoides, _I had them together successfully for a long time.

I haven't tried them with _Apistogramma_, but I think Platinum Tetra (_Hemigrammus_ (_Hyphessobrycon) rodwayi_)  work fairly well. 

cheers Darrel


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## sparkyweasel (20 Nov 2018)

You may have had an ammonia spike from introducing a lot of fish at once. Plants and filtration could have mopped it up by the time you tested.
I would do extra water changes, and if your remaing Green Neons survive, add some more in stages.


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## Millns84 (20 Nov 2018)

sparkyweasel said:


> You may have had an ammonia spike from introducing a lot of fish at once. Plants and filtration could have mopped it up by the time you tested.
> I would do extra water changes, and if your remaing Green Neons survive, add some more in stages.



I wouldn't have thought so, the first died only two hours after getting them home and another two that evening. They weren't even fed that day so as to increase the amount of waste in the tank.

I'll test the water again tonight but I don't expect it to show anything. I might even do a water change regardless.


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## mort (20 Nov 2018)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, They are good,  except for _N. beckfordii._



Is this because they aren't good dither fish for apistogramma or something else?

I have them but admittedly on their own and find them a great species.


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## dw1305 (20 Nov 2018)

Hi all, 





mort said:


> Is this because they aren't good dither fish for apistogramma or something else?


It is the dither bit, they are really nice fish, easy to keep, easy to breed, lively and attractive. 

The problem is that they are much more like a tetra in their behaviour, and will hunt fry at the bottom, which the other Pencil fish (I've only kept them, _N. marginatus_ and _N. eques_) don't do. 

cheers Darrel


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## Millns84 (20 Nov 2018)

Well another four green neon deaths during the day!

Tested the water again - 0ppm, 0ppm, 20ppm and performed a 50% water change.

I'll pop in to my LFS on Thursday. Luckily they have a 10 day guarantee with livestock but at this rate I'll have lost them all by tomorrow!

On a slightly different note, I'm probably going to go with the black neon tetras. I really like the look of them and they're 90p each at my LFS whereas any kind of pencil fish is more than double!

They've also got gold tetras which I've never seen before but I've obviously got to consider that this is only a 60 litre cube and a lot of tetras like more swimming space.


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## alto (20 Nov 2018)

I’d do daily water changes and not add any new fish for a couple weeks 

It’s quite possible the green neons had slight white spot infections - which increased exponentially during bag time re stress

How long was the transport plus slow acclimation process?

- I’m not in favour of slow acclimation (in general) as often fish are kept in bags or other small containers during the process, this is especially stressful for any wild caught fish, and wild green neons are again more sensitive in this regard  

If you purchase more green neons make sure they are kept in the dark during transport, as vibration/noise free as possible, then quickly released into a dim tank (CO2 off and minimal levels, tank lights off) 

I tend to distrust shop tank water no matter the source and always pour fish off into a net placed in a small bucket - add tank water so that fish are only “dry” during the few seconds between bucket & tank 

I often do a “preventative” white spot treatment if a fish species is very sensitive to ich (wild fish tend to have fewer immune reserves re stress, also some will demonstrate zero immune response to “new” pathogens) 
I use formalin as it tends to be well tolerated by wild fish, but water needs to be well oxygenated (no CO2 and good surface ripple), tank lights off, daily water changes etc

Acc website Dennerle 60l has dimensions 
38 x 38 x 43cm (high) 
I really wouldn’t try to keep wild caught green neons in a tank this size as they will likely be stressed by the relatively small area 
You did well to buy a shoal of 20 
If tank is densely planted they would likely manage but I suspect they would seem delicate


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## alto (20 Nov 2018)

Millns84 said:


> 20ppm and performed a 50% water change.


I’d consider 20ppm nitrate “high” for wild fish, especially when newly introduced into a tank


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## alto (20 Nov 2018)

Tommy said:


> The same thing nearly happened with me over the weekend, I was at my LFS and they had the best looking cardinal tetras I have ever seen, there was about 25 of them so we done a deal and I went through to get them the next day. Some of them had a fungal infection on their backs under the dorsal fins so I left them to see how they would get on until Monday. They all died the same day, so I am pleased I never got them.


This sounds like columnaris - the location of the “fungal” patch is typical, as is the speed of appearance ...  like many infections, the gills are already well infected before external signs appear, with columnaris there is also usually muscle tissue infection in these early stages as well 
Columnaris occurs in several strains, some are rapid onset & death, some less rapid but just as deadly, others show reduced mortality ... then there is also a fish species effect with some fish displaying good immune response while others appear to have none to minimal immune response 

I suggest avoiding this shop for fish purchases unless they have a good understanding of columnaris infections and how to sterilize therafter (eg, bleach is ineffective)


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## Millns84 (20 Nov 2018)

alto said:


> I’d do daily water changes and not add any new fish for a couple weeks
> 
> It’s quite possible the green neons had slight white spot infections - which increased exponentially during bag time re stress
> 
> ...



Transport was only 25mins and I acclimatised them for around an hour (usually 30mins for less delicate fish).

Nitrate is usually negligable in this tank but its gone through a lot of change lately and the constant deaths over the last few days might have something to do with that. 

I also always turn the lights off for a few hours when adding new fish so as to keep stress down. In fact, it was when I turned the lights back on that I noticed the first death. Its also a low tech tank so no Co2 but I do add low doses of TNC lite and their glutaraldehyde... That being said they weren't dosed on the day I got the neons in any event. 

It is heavily planted and was under the impression that they'd be OK. 

There's literally no signs of illness and my LFS had them for a good couple of weeks before I bought them. 

I've never treated preventatively before but I'll step up the water changes for the time being, albeit that I'm fully expecting to lose the entire shoal!


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## alto (21 Nov 2018)

There’s not much I’d’ve done different then except for minimizing the accclimation time

Hopefully the last fish stabilize 

A while back I picked up a shoal of neon green rasbora from a local shop - by the time I got home, several were dead and lost several more over the next couple days
Fish had seemed in good health in the shop
Fish that remained at the shop experienced minimal losses
Shop replaced the losses, this time adding oxygen to the bag (rather than just room air) - these fish travelled just fine

One major difference (over other times I’d purchased fish) was that the shop had just completed water changes in that bank of tanks

I suspect the large water change, netting, bagging, transport, new tank process just added up to too much stress for these small (wild caught) fish


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## Millns84 (22 Nov 2018)

Well the last of the green neons have now died. 

I popped into my LFS with a water sample and have a credit note which I'll use in the next couple of weeks to get some black neons. 

What an awful experience, I can't help but feel responsible for the little guys. Never seen anything like it!


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## alto (22 Nov 2018)

Commiserations with you on this one 

I’ve had similar experiences with Sphaerichthys species ... unless you can find a water quality issue in your own tank, it’s fairly safe to assume some pre-existing condition 
And it’s not that unusual that the shop tank fish appeared fine ... just very confusing when this happens 

Nonetheless it’s a difficult experience


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