# cyanobacteria



## Roediger (5 Mar 2018)

whats up folks. i have a small patch of cyanobacteria. what causes this?


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## Edvet (5 Mar 2018)

http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm


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## Roediger (5 Mar 2018)

"Often caused by very low nitrates" I dose EI so it cant be this. It is fairly common to have it growing in the substrate against the front glass from where it can spread. Sometimes it appears with new setups that have had.

"Sometimes it appears with new setups that have had light and ammonia present at some point" this is possible, was testing flow by puting fish food on subtrate and seeing if current is strong enough to pick it up. 

"Dirty substrates and filters may also bring it on" subtrate dirty yes. filter no i clean it every other week. 

"Poor water circulation is another possible cause" maybe but i doubt it as it's a small 10 gal with a fluval 106, but who knows lol

Thanks a lot Edvet


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## Roediger (5 Mar 2018)

Can algae fix help me out with this?


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## Edvet (5 Mar 2018)

Blackout for three days while adding some exttra NO3


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## ian_m (5 Mar 2018)

Is you water RO ?

I have heard people having persistant cyano issues due to poor quality/poorly remineralised RO water.


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## Roediger (6 Mar 2018)

ian_m said:


> Is you water RO ?
> 
> I have heard people having persistant cyano issues due to poor quality/poorly remineralised RO water.


no my water is tap


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## Bart Hazes (6 Mar 2018)

Cyanobacteria have phycocyanin and some have phycoerythrin. Both are pigments that help to extract energy from green and red (shorter wavelength than chlorophyll red absorption peak) light, so light with a higher colour temperature could give cyanobacteria a competitive edge. But there can be many other causes. Also some cyanobacteria can fix N2 from air, especially in high-light environments so they are likely the ones that pop up at very limiting nitrate/ammonia levels. But others can't fix N2. Also quite a few algae have CO2 Concentrating Mechanisms (CCMs) that may give them an edge in tanks with to great CO2 depletion towards the end of the photoperiod.


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## mikehookipa (6 Mar 2018)

Too much bioload.

Sent from my SM-G955W using Tapatalk


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## sciencefiction (6 Mar 2018)

Last year I set up a plastic tub. I put no substrate. I put a couple of planted jars with stem plants, some anubias, a cycled filter that had run for years in other tanks,  and since there were no critters bar snails and some hitchhiker shrimp, I dosed a ton of ferts, including KNO3 scooping it dry with my bare hand... When I was finished with the ferts, the water had yellowish colour, I had overdosed quite a bit.....Next time I look in the tank....I see a huge cyano outbreak..... Everything got covered in cyano....even the filter.... On a positive note for the first time I noticed ramshorn snails actually love eating the stuff.  They grew huge while the outbreak lasted.....

Possible culprits for my cyano....Its got to be the excess ferts I dosed....If you think of anything else reading the above, let me know....The cyano lasted 2-3 months and then completely disappeared. The snails helped greatly in keeping it under control and subsequently eradicating it all when the cyano started diminishing. I did not clean any of it(since it was just a plastic tub) and the tub has been spotless for months. 

If you only have a small patch of cyano, and you don't mind snails, get yourself some red ramshorn snails. Apart from cyano, they also eat black brush algae. They're my favourite snails and don't normally multiply fast, unless in a cyano ridden tank


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## Angus (6 Mar 2018)

only ever had it when i've been lazy with water changes and keeping substrate clean, even then only in small patches.


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## Kezzab (6 Mar 2018)

My personal experience is that light is a relevant factor. A tank that ran on 100% daylight on an east facing windowsill was moved to a room with very little ambient light and an Led added. A quite serious cyano problem disappeared very quickly with no other changes.

In a second tank i have also tried dosing KNO3, if I'm regular with it it does seem to reduce it. But i can't eradicate it, especially on growth which is right at the water surface close to the light.


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## roadmaster (6 Mar 2018)

I sometimes see small patches of Cyano  such as OP describes and pluck it off hard scape or substrate areas where it might appear.
If it grows back,i repeat process.
If however the stuff begins to appear all over,then bigger issues are at play me thinks.
I run relatively low light and cooler temps than some, so I do not have to deal with it much.(it seems)
Agree with too much light or for too long ,along with lapse filter maint,water changes if applicable.
I have used peroxide in the past after removing filter media to buckets of dechlorinated water and letting the filter's circulate the peroxide for maybe 20 to 30 min.
Procedure was described over at planted tank forum "one two punch" as it was described.
Method also involved the use of Seachem Excel but I only used the peroxide.
Worked fairly well ,and my apologies for not being able to readily provide a link that describes the method in detail.
I believe it must be mentioned that if condition's that allow the stuff to become a bigger issue than a small patch(as OP describes) is not corrected,,then mileage will vary with attempts to eradicate it via chemical's.IME


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## zozo (6 Mar 2018)

Roediger said:


> Can algae fix help me out with this?



Rather go the natural way..  Clean out the biomass the bacteria lives off, eutrophication is believed the main accelerator of many algae blooms including Cyano bacteria. Even with enough water changes you still can have eutrophic zones in the substrate where bioload accumulates. Adding humic substances, alder cones or almond leaves etc. seems to help a lot as natural algicide/herbicide, the tanin colored water does not only filter the light, the tanin/humic substances also contain antibacterial substances preventing excessive bacterial growth.



> Based on their chemical nature as compounds with specific functional groups, humic substances have the ability to *interfere in the photosynthetic electron chain*. This means, they act as weak herbicides and *may structure the primary producer community* in brown water lakes.
> A recent comparison of the development of a coccal green algal and a coccal cyanobacterial species up exposure to various humic substances revealed that the prokaryote appears to be much more sensitive the eukaryote. This agrees well with field findings: In eutrophicated humic substances rich water bodies, cyanobacteria rarely dominate. Hence, we are trying to apply humic substances as a kind of natural mean to combat cyanobacterial development




Doesn't mean that you need a tea colored tank till the end of days. But temporary adding enough to color the water dark, will definitively help to get you over the top if you suffer from an algae breakout. Especialy in premature tanks this helps a lot. And while the tank slowly matures, slowly decrease the amount of tanins to a desired water color. But definitively keep it in there.  A fully healthy and stable biologicaly matured tank rarely suffers from excessive algae growth.


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## Roediger (6 Mar 2018)

thanks for all your advice guys. tank was fine for a while. maybe it was the fish food idk... just crazy how one minute its ok and then few days it has a green patch.


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## ceg4048 (6 Mar 2018)

Bart Hazes said:


> Cyanobacteria have phycocyanin and some have phycoerythrin. Both are pigments that help to extract energy from green and red (shorter wavelength than chlorophyll red absorption peak) light, so light with a higher colour temperature could give cyanobacteria a competitive edge.


Hi,
  There is no advantage in this sense. Plants also have phycobiliproteins as well as other auxiliary pigments. So light with higher or lower color temperatures is not an issue. What is an issue is that light with high PAR does more damage to plants as their structures are more complex and they must expend energy to repair the radiation damage. The simpler structures of cyanobacteria and of other algae are much less affected by higher energy levels.

The OP should ensure filters are cleaned, that water changes are kept up and that KNO3 dosing is correct. If the dosing is determined to be correct and if BGA still appears, then flow/distribution as well as lighting levels should be reviewed.

Cheers,


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## Roediger (6 Mar 2018)

ceg4048 said:


> Hi,
> There is no advantage in this sense. Plants also have phycobiliproteins as well as other auxiliary pigments. So light with higher or lower color temperatures is not an issue. What is an issue is that light with high PAR does more damage to plants as their structures are more complex and they must expend energy to repair the radiation damage. The simpler structures of cyanobacteria and of other algae are much less affected by higher energy levels.
> 
> The OP should ensure filters are cleaned, that water changes are kept up and that KNO3 dosing is correct. If the dosing is determined to be correct and if BGA still appears, then flow/distribution as well as lighting levels should be reviewed.
> ...


Clive!! thanks for dropping in =)

I clean my filter every other water change. also i know you don't like to hear this but!! does cyanobacteria have anything to do with high fert lvls.  Also!! i did raise light since i been learning from you guys =) so light is raised and we see in a few weeks. its a 10 gal and light is raised 7inche above water serface.


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## Napoleon (7 Mar 2018)

Hi Roedigger
Cyanobacteria is very difficult to get rid off
Once in your tank, even if you do everything right they will not go.
The only thing that works 100%  is a product called chemiclean 
It is not cheap but will kill your Cyanobacteria 
Not many people know about that product but it’s definitely worth having some handy
JM


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## Edvet (7 Mar 2018)

Napoleon said:


> Cyanobacteria is very difficult to get rid off


No it's not, a 3 day blackout and extra NO3 will remove it. Start with a 50% waterchange and a tank clean
If the cause isn't handled it will reappear though.


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## Napoleon (7 Mar 2018)

It will still be In Your system and will reappear as soon as conditions are not right


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## Edvet (7 Mar 2018)

All those bacteria will be around in all tanks and appear when the conditions are favorable for them. The blackout will make them disappear but the bacteria will be omnipresent. Even if you use an antibacterial agent, which is a bad practice, they wont disappear completely.


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## zozo (7 Mar 2018)

Napoleon said:


> It will still be In Your system and will reappear as soon as conditions are not right



It always is  it's omnipotent present in our global ecological system, bacteria, fungal and algal spores are all around us, constantly.. Even if you completely distroy what you see developed.. But not adressing the root cause than it will be back again no matter what you do.

Like fungus on a constant damp wall, you can kill it with chemicals.. But not addressing the root cause, which is preventing the wall getting moist.. Fungus will be back in no time despite you killed off the first generation.


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## ceg4048 (7 Mar 2018)

Roediger said:


> I clean my filter every other water change. also i know you don't like to hear this but!! does cyanobacteria have anything to do with high fert lvls.


No it doesn't. Light causes algae. Algae do not care what the nutrient levels are.You need to stop listening to nutrient haters.
If BGA were related to high nutrient levels then everyone dosing eutrophic schemes such as EI and PMDD would experience chronic BGA without any possibility of eradicating it. Additionally, the reverse would be true, i.e those who do NOT dose any nutrients would not suffer these symptoms. Clearly this is not the case. Adding nutrients typically eliminates or prevents BGA or other algal forms.

Something happened in the tank, whether it be low oxygen levels or excessive lighting or inadequate dosing or some combination. It didn't just happen yesterday but over a period of time. The spores, pathogens and bacteria living in your tank alongside your fish and plants and are never truly gone. They wait for an opportunity to attack and usually that opportunity is when conditions in the tank decline and when the plant health declines. As mentioned above, improving the conditions does not always immediately eradicate the bloom, but persistent removal and the maintaining of improved conditions will work.

As mentioned, you need to mechanically remove the BGA consistently and aggressively. Also need to ensure that your flow/distribution is adequate. A lot of people use test kits to determine how much NPK to dose and this often results in failure. You cannot accurately measure NO3 or any Nitrogen compound in an aquarium. Your test kit can read 20 ppm and the true number can easily be 2 ppm.

First ensure the dosing numbers. How much of what powders are you adding, and how frequently are they being added?
What is the configuration of your filter outlet pipes?
What is the lighting, how is it arranged?
Have you tried the blackout + KNO3 as Edvert mentioned? Did the BGA return afterwards?

I'm not seeing any photos or real data here, just a bunch of panic response based on myths and old wives tales.
You need to be systematic and logical. Examine every aspect  of your procedures. It's not always obvious that something in your procedures has a flaw.
I've seen cases where someone thought they were dosing correctly and it turned out they had completely miscalculated the dosage.
Some people miscalculate their gas injection technique. Others have more light than they bargained for, and without a PAR meter it is impossible to tell. The light may look dim to you but may be bright to plants. The reverse can also be true.

Try the blackout+KNO3. That is always the first step with BGA. Then observe the results and go from there.

Cheers,


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## Roediger (7 Mar 2018)

ceg4048 said:


> No it doesn't. Light causes algae. Algae do not care what the nutrient levels are.You need to stop listening to nutrient haters.
> If BGA were related to high nutrient levels then everyone dosing eutrophic schemes such as EI and PMDD would experience chronic BGA without any possibility of eradicating it. Additionally, the reverse would be true, i.e those who do NOT dose any nutrients would not suffer these symptoms. Clearly this is not the case. Adding nutrients typically eliminates or prevents BGA or other algal forms.
> 
> Something happened in the tank, whether it be low oxygen levels or excessive lighting or inadequate dosing or some combination. It didn't just happen yesterday but over a period of time. The spores, pathogens and bacteria living in your tank alongside your fish and plants and are never truly gone. They wait for an opportunity to attack and usually that opportunity is when conditions in the tank decline and when the plant health declines. As mentioned above, improving the conditions does not always immediately eradicate the bloom, but persistent removal and the maintaining of improved conditions will work.
> ...


hmmm i did stop water agitation on top. I also stopped my skimmer from from taking in surface water because it kept making sounds. i will take pics today. thanks i am injecting more co2 so i will try to increase oxygen


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## Roediger (8 Mar 2018)

whats up guys heres the tank pics!

so I trimmed.. and trimmed and used a tooth brush to get any cyno off. did a water change. dosed ferts. and also added extra kno3. covered the tank with a dark blanket. hope everything goes well. i only get cyno on my floor i seen pics of tanks and man! thats bad


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## ceg4048 (8 Mar 2018)

OK mate, thanks a lot for the additional information. It confirms from the photos that the BGA is on the substrate and is not encroaches on the plants, and that is good news.

Is that brand new ADA Aquasoil? If so, be advised that new Aquasoil leaches ammonia and that can trigger BGA blooms. That could be a factor.

Trimming will have helped the flow.

Remember that blackout means blackout. No feeding, no peeking.

Cheers,


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## Roediger (8 Mar 2018)

ceg4048 said:


> OK mate, thanks a lot for the additional information. It confirms from the photos that the BGA is on the substrate and is not encroaches on the plants, and that is good news.
> 
> Is that brand new ADA Aquasoil? If so, be advised that new Aquasoil leaches ammonia and that can trigger BGA blooms. That could be a factor.
> 
> ...


thats correct sir! full blackout. made sure i fed them few flakes. did a WC. trimmed and blqckout time. Ada soil is about  5 to 6 months old. i didnt put anything in the tank until my ammonia showed 0


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## ceg4048 (9 Mar 2018)

Well, just because your test kit says zero it does not actually mean that the number is zero, especially in the sediment. In fact, ammonia is never zero because it is constantly being produced. Aquasoil is prepared using ammonium nitrate baked onto the surface of the pellets and retains some amount until it is mineralized and then depleted. The events leading to this issue could have been set into motion 5-6 months ago, for example. Again, it could be also related to flow or gas exchange over that area of the sediment. Keep in mind that as others have mentioned, this is a bacteria, not a plant like real algae is. We just call it algae, but it isn't.

Cheers,


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## Ben C (20 Mar 2018)

Having read this thread, I just did my own three day black-out (Saturday morning, all day Sunday, all day Monday and into Tuesday evening). There is now not a trace of cyanobacteria - its like it was never there. I will now be doing a 50% water change as that dead algae will be in the water column somewhere and I'll want rid of it. 

The ONLY thing I would do differently is that condensation formed on the inside of the black bin bags I used and ran down the tank. I can see some water ingress in the cabinet, which has led to the laminate warping in a few small places - not the end of the world, but something to be aware of if you do this yourself. I'm not sure what the solutions are - I'd cross that bridge next time I were to do this. 

In short - the process appears to work. Now to just keep it away


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## ian_m (20 Mar 2018)

I used multiple layers of my DIY dust sheets..old blankets and sheets when I did my blackout. No condensation.


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## Edvet (20 Mar 2018)

Ben C said:


> dead algae will be in the water column somewhere and I'll want rid of it.


Technically they  are not algae , it's good to do the big water change, but the bacteria will always be lurking around, in all tanks, all over the world


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## Coys (22 Mar 2018)

Napoleon said:


> The only thing that works 100%  is a product called chemiclean



Ultralife Blue Green Lime Stain Remover does the trick too. Worked 100% in two aquariums with horrible cyano outbreaks. Around £20 including p&p (from USA) from Amazon.co.uk.


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## Edvet (22 Mar 2018)

Ben C said:


> not a trace of cyanobacteria


 Tadaaaa


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## Edvet (22 Mar 2018)

Coys said:


> Ultralife Blue Green Lime Stain Remover


Sadly it doesn't say what the ingredients are, but a 3 day blackout works too ( as shown) and doesn't cost anything


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## Ben C (23 Mar 2018)

Thanks Edvet - yes, I didn't mean to write 'algae'! A slip of the keyboard


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## zozo (23 Mar 2018)

Ben C said:


> black bin bags



Hop into the first IKEA store you see..  They sell extremely large (+/- 175cm x 100cm) and rather thick material "Black" beach/bathroom towels and also rather cheap as well. These towels are thus thick textile they are completely light proof. Obviously regarding the size of  the tank use as much as you need overlap them and use cloth pins to hold together..  Euraka!! They breath and don't condence..
And when you are not blacking out your tank take it to the beach or your bathroom and enjoy it's softness..


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