# Is my tap water a lost cause ?



## Merls (28 Dec 2014)

Been losing fish in my tank for last few weeks but been a lot worse (3-4 fish a day) in last week.  I've done the full API test and cant find anything wrong other than my nitrate is high but as my tap water is high i don't know what i can do about it.

I've included a picture, number one is tank after 6 days, number 2 is tap, number 3 is snow (just to make sure i was testing right)

Cant really see the point in more frequent (normally once a week) water changes to reduce the nitrate when the water im putting in is so high.

Recently swapped to CO2 as well at a rate of 1 bubble over 2 seconds and PH stays around 6.8 but ive disabled the CO2 till i find out whats going off.

Im welcome any advice or help cause im getting close to the stage of just pulling the plug and giving up. I've had fish for 20 years but just can't figure this out and losing heart seeing all my best fish die 



 

Other info is
PH 6.8 - 7.0
Amnonia 0
Nitrite 0
Lightning set up is
Main led lights 12:00 - 20:00
Moonlights 20:00 - 21:00
CO2 11:30 - 19:00
Airstones 19:00 - 10:30



 

Sorry it was rather a long post but your my last hope...  (sure that was a star wars quote)


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## Merls (28 Dec 2014)

Oh excuss me for the pics being so big didnt realise they would be so big from my phone


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## Andy D (28 Dec 2014)

I cannot believe it would be nitrate. 

What symptoms do the fish exhibit? Are there any obvious marks or discolouration? Do they swim any differently before dying?

Has anything else been added to the tank?


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## AverageWhiteBloke (28 Dec 2014)

Tank looks like its been set up a while, is that the case? Highly unlikely nitrate is the culprit.  The thinking on nitrate is that people aren't sure on the long term affects on health or how susceptible fry and eggs are. It certainly doesn't wipe out fish. 
There must be something else, back track, any changes you have done lately? Any species in parti:ular affected? Any new additions of fish lately. I find sometimes you can add fish that bring in an infection that goes tbrough the fish like a dose of salts. 

How come you turned down co2, were they gasping?

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## GHNelson (28 Dec 2014)

Hi
I agree don't think Nitrate is the problem!
Could be Co2 asphyxiation....what colour was your drop checker when you found the dead fish?
hoggie


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## Merls (28 Dec 2014)

I had the CO2 set at 2 bubbles per second and they was ok with it (till they was dying) and from what ive just seen im starting to wonder (and hope) i might be onto whats wrong, oh and tank been set up for 6 years at current location).  Backtracking it was about the same time as i added some new fish and im just about to lose one of my favourite clown loaches i think <big big sad face) but look at his fins. 



 

Could this be a case of untreated fin rot ? or just him looking a mess as he dying from something else.

I've tried to take 2 video's, first is the clown seeming to be gasping for air (which is why i turned off the co2 to elimitate that from the problem)
second is just the rest of the tank so you can see the rest are not gasping but you might spot something else ive missed.

http://mdallen.com/clown.mp4

http://mdallen.com/general.mp4


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## Merls (28 Dec 2014)

Ive got 3 drop checkers set up at present (newbie going over the top), the glass one is blue, and the plastic one with white background is a dark green so i dont think there is to much CO2 in the tank, i've also got the airstones running 24/7 which is not ideal for CO2 i know but wanted to make sure there is oxygen in the water.


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## Merls (28 Dec 2014)

Can't see any fin rot on any of the other fish though, and some of the little fish are after the wounded clown which might explain his fins, going to try and section him away from the others.
Just fished out a dead angel fish that must of gone in the last hour, no signs of decaying fins on that so im guessing my fin rot idea is out the window.


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## GHNelson (28 Dec 2014)

Did you add plants as well?


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## AverageWhiteBloke (28 Dec 2014)

My best guess would be a bacterial infection brought in with the new additions. Are the new addiions suffering any symptoms?  Sometimes new fish carry disease which they host but are immune to, your fish might not have resistance to it yet. Maybe try a broad anti bacteriacide like Myxazin. 

I very much doubt your water would be the problem if you've used it problem free for that length of time unless your water authority has recently maybe flushed something through the pipes. 

I had a similar situation in my tank once, Trouble free for years then added some neons. Same week I lost a few corys and harlequins and the fins on ny siamese fighter disintegrated. 
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## Merls (28 Dec 2014)

Added a few new plants as well, some of the new fish have died (in fact one died within 30 mins of adding him to tank, put it down to stress),  I only live 10 mins from wharf aquatics so i will have a trip down there tomorrow for some general treatment or something i think. I've got some Interpet general tonic but ive had it opened for years, (actually expired in 2013) so not going to risk that.

Just seems strange as the tank looks really healthy (and tests fine apart from the nitrate issue) then all of a sudden bang... there is a dead fish again.

I've noticed one of the first signs is the fish seem to struggle to stay upright and tend to roll onto there side, its probably just a general thing when they become ill but thought id mention it in case it means something to anyone.


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## Andy D (28 Dec 2014)

I would suggest a few water changes as this tends to help with a lot of situations.


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## GHNelson (28 Dec 2014)

Hi
If the LFS  plants have been treated with a copper based insecticide this could have had a affect on your loach which made it susceptible to a bacteria infection!
The other deaths could be down to acclimatisation shock and a bacteria infection passed on by the host fish as AWB as stated!
hoggie


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## darren636 (28 Dec 2014)

Water changes and  q tank


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## GHNelson (28 Dec 2014)

I agree with Andy 





Andy D said:


> I would suggest a few water changes as this tends to help with a lot of situations.


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## Merls (28 Dec 2014)

i will do another water change tonight then, even though i did a 25% yesterday and pop to wharf tomorrow, will take a water sample as well.

Water draining from tank as i type


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## AverageWhiteBloke (28 Dec 2014)

With the greatest respect mate. I wouldn't take too much notice of the tests.  Wouldn't like them to set you off in the wrong direction. I don't think they couod tell you much.  Water changes are a definite. I mentioned Myxazin before which I have had success with previously but please double check as I think it maybe copper based and aggravate your clowns further.  Same applies if you.have shrimp in the tank. 

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## Tim Harrison (28 Dec 2014)

I don't think that nitrates are known for killing fish, and test kits are notoriously inaccurate.
The pathogens that cause fin rot, sudden death syndrome etc are often present in our aquariums and our fish usually only become susceptible due to stress brought on by poor water quality, CO2 overdose, temp change, etc as already mentioned.
I'd treat with broad spectrum propriety agents like eSHa 2000 and eSHa exit (combined) to cover a multitude of infections.
But first it would perhaps be an idea to follow the good advice already given and do a substantial water change and clean the tanks filter, and take out any absorbent media that might inhibit the agents efficacy.


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## Merls (28 Dec 2014)

/ive just done a big water change. I run 2 all ponds solution external filters (1600 and 2000 i think)  both have the normal media in them, should i remove the carbon from them during treatment. Will the other media components be ok


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## Edvet (29 Dec 2014)

Looks quite heavily stocked. I would do 50% waterchanges everyday and clean one filter one day and the other 2 days later. Tossing in medications without a diagnosis is never clever in my eyes. Clean as much as possible and do large waterchanges.


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## Merls (29 Dec 2014)

Wont doing a 50% water change every day be bad for the tank combined with cleaning the filters like that ?

I did a 50% change last night and LFS seems to think it might be a strain of white spot so they on treatment for that and it says on the box it can be used at same time as a bacteria treatment so might try that as well. So no more water changes for next 3 days at least.

I removed all the carbon from both external filters and guy at shop said if im running a CO2 system im better off not using carbon anyway so will chuck it out.

Lets see what happens in the next few days... Fingers crossed.


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## Andy D (29 Dec 2014)

Can you see white spots?

How long has the carbon been in the filter? If it has been there a while it could be home to millions of beneficial bacteria so I would not throw it away. Carbon is a great filter medium as it offers a massive surface area.


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## Merls (29 Dec 2014)

Nope cant see any white spot at all but LFS said there are quiet a few strains of it that you cant really see... Seemed a bit weird to me but you gotta trust someone in the end, im going to add some bacteria treatment as well just to be safe.

~In regards to the carbon its probably been in 2 months so its ready for changing anyway plus it needed to be removed with the treatment anyway.

To be honest i just don't know whats wrong with the tank so just gonna have to try different treatments and see. At least the treatments is only 3 days.


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## Andy D (29 Dec 2014)

Carbon does not need to be changed unless you are using it for a specific reason like removing tanins or removing meds.
I would have left the carbon in to be honest.
If there is no sign of whitespot then I am not sure I would dump chemicals in there to treat it. Someone at the LFS is going to suggest selling you something. 
A broad bacterial treatment may help but unless you can be sure there is a bacterial issue I would do water changes first to see if this helps improve matters.

I find this site very useful - http://skepticalaquarist.com/bacterial-infections


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## GHNelson (29 Dec 2014)

http://skepticalaquarist.com/bacterial-infections


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## Edvet (29 Dec 2014)

Andy D said:


> http://skepticalaquarist.com/bacterial-infections



This article should be mandatory for EVERYONE WHO KEEPS FISH

I am quite sick and tired off everybody just dumping medications in their tank without a diagnosis ora consult with a professional. Not to mention what they do with their "mediacted "water afterwards. Lets just dump it in the sewer and it will magically disappear......


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## Tim Harrison (29 Dec 2014)

Merls said:


> /ive just done a big water change. I run 2 all ponds solution external filters (1600 and 2000 i think)  both have the normal media in them, should i remove the carbon from them during treatment. Will the other media components be ok



Yes carbon is absorbent and will reduce the medications efficacy so remove it, same with polymer resins like Purigen.
Ed is right to a point, but beyond water changes, I think what ails your tank is beyond conservative treatment and now requires a more aggressive approach, e.g. the eSHa products I mentioned. For instance, fin rot can be caused by both fungi and bacteria, hence the recommended broad spectrum approach.


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## Andy Thurston (29 Dec 2014)

Not enough clowns in the group and the caves are far too big for the clowns which like jamming themselves into tight places, couple that with the problems other members mention is probably why their sick.
Also the tank isn't really big enough for clown loach.
I agree with edvet daily 50-75% water changes and see if you can manage to save it personally I think it might be too late


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## Merls (29 Dec 2014)

Thanks for the advice, done the water change and added the suggest meds. Though i disagree that a daily 50-75% water change is a good idea, it would make the tank like a new one within a week.
As for tank not being big enough for clowns i hear things like this all the time, and agree if they was big clowns when bought, when (or if) they grow big they will have a new home., Also there is lots of small places that the clowns can hide when they want just to the right of the large bit.
Thanks again though for the help.


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## Merls (29 Dec 2014)

Edvet i DID go see someone before dumping meds in tank, i asked on here, did water tests and consulted with LFS


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## Tim Harrison (29 Dec 2014)

Good luck...I hope you get a positive result soon...


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## Andy D (29 Dec 2014)

Merls said:


> Though i disagree that a daily 50-75% water change is a good idea, it would make the tank like a new one within a week.



Why?

As long as you dechlorinate the water it would be fine. What you would be doing is replacing possibly contaminated water with nice fresh water.

I hope you get it sorted though!


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## Andy Thurston (29 Dec 2014)

In 1-2 years healthy clowns will reach 4-5inches if fed properly which is very difficult to achieve without overfeeding tankmates, at which time they will already be too large for that tank. They dont like bright lights.
Re. water quality/changes. i dont bother with any test kits for checking water. I only measure tds my clowns start greying out when tds approaches 400 but generally a 50% water change, weekly, keeps tds around 170-250ppm. Any sickness or odd behaviour is treated with dailly water changes for 2 weeks before i think even about meds, which should be used in half doses with clown loach and if your really worried about resetting the tank/filtration to "new" then use dechlorinator to remove excess ammonia, which your plants do anyway


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## X3NiTH (29 Dec 2014)

Just making sure.

Is a dechlorinator being used to treat the water at water change and does it deal with chloramine. Is it possible this may be chloramine poisoning.

Here's the skepticalaquarist link, the comment at the end from chem geek says Nitrate is produced when chloramine oxidises in the tank (when using chlorine to oxidise the chloramine), could this explain why nitrates are elevated (providing the test is accurate).

Wild stab in the dark I know but it's better than being told carbon is a bad thing to have in the tank when injecting co2.

Before I knew about chloramines (I degassed 24hrs) I lost fish after fish this way, was a year and a half down the line with the tank and had no issue with the way I changed my water until they dug up the road for that stupid tram that never ended up coming down this way.


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## Merls (30 Dec 2014)

I've not used anything added to my tap water in a long time, picked up some Aqua safe though other day but not going to use it for another 2 days as treating them for white spot as suggested by LFS. Any particular dechlorinator  you suggest or is this aqua safe as good as any.


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## Andy D (30 Dec 2014)

Seachem Prime is good and very good value for money.

No dechlorination going on eh. No wonder you have had problems!

Fish-In cycle to contend with now I imagine...


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## darren636 (30 Dec 2014)

Merls said:


> I've not used anything added to my tap water in a long time, picked up some Aqua safe though other day but not going to use it for another 2 days as treating them for white spot as suggested by LFS. Any particular dechlorinator  you suggest or is this aqua safe as good as any.



No dechlorinator used by you at all for water changes?
 Is this a mix up?


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## Merls (30 Dec 2014)

Yeah i've added some now, cant do a water change till Thursday as there in treatment but I've added some aqua safe anyway as figured it cant do any harm. I use to always use a water treatment at last house when i use to fill tank with a bucket, just use to add it to the bucket. However since moving i set up a hose pipe to save the hassle of buckets and guess just gave up and lost focus of what i needed to do... Time to kick myself up the blahblahblahblah and get things back to how i use to do it.
Hopefully one of these things im doing will help me out of this situation (which i may of caused myself before i get flamed to death)


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## darren636 (30 Dec 2014)

Oh definitely caused by chlorine/ metals stressing the fish.
Some white spot meds don't work if dechlor is used....


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## Merls (31 Dec 2014)

Ordered a big container of aqua safe as it will work out cheaper, got 5 litres for £31, seemed a good buy to me, only lost 2 fish today (i know its 2 more than i should lose) but its a step in the right direction, one more days treatment then i can start doing some more frequent water changes with aqua safe in it


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## AverageWhiteBloke (2 Jan 2015)

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## Merls (6 Jan 2015)

Just a update..........
Lost a few more fish so got drastic !
Removed all the plants, removed the internal rock backing, took 60-70% of the water out, raked though all the sand and removed all the old bits of lead etc from old plants. really gave the stuff a good scrubbing down and removed some of the potting that was still on some plants (not the pots just that weird material around it)

Filled the tank back up and used Aqua safe (see i do listen to advice). replanted the plants.  did 50% change the next day (more aqua safe).Left the CO2 system off for a few days and up to now i've not lost another fish !

No idea what was wrong and probably never will but at least my tank is back on the right tracks and i've got a 5 litre tub of aqua safe now 

Looking into trying to lower my nitrates now as my tap water is betwwen 40-80. i've made a fresh post in here for advice / opinions on jbl nitratex  and if its suitable for a co2 tank.

Thanks again for helping me with this issue though.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (9 Jan 2015)

> No idea what was wrong and probably never will but at least my tank is back on the right tracks and i've got a 5 litre tub of aqua safe now



You probably just answered what was wrong buddy. You were putting raw tapwater into your tank. Fine for drinking, not so for fish to live in! You maybe got away with it for some time but the water company may have been doing work on lines or something and you copped for it.
I don't think ripping the plants out etc was necessary and in fact could have caused more harm than good. If they were established they would only have helped the situation IF we were looking at maybe an ammonia issue.

Like I said earlier on in the thread, it's best to take a deep breath and back track to when things went. I know this is hard when your pride and joy fish are dying on you and it's easy to make a knee jerk reaction and make some bad moves so as a third party looking back you can make a best guess and work with that.

Issue started when adding new fish=possibly host diseased fish and not used to dechlorinated water as some, some die disease spreads faster.
Your remedy, more water changes (obviously recommended in here but no one knew you weren't using dechlorinater)=making the problem worse=more fish loss
At this point you are looking at nitrate because that is the only visual clue you have created by a test kit that is more than likely not telling you the whole truth.
Reading back, seems to me everything started to get back on track as soon as you started using dechlorinator again and that tells me far more than your nitrate test kit. I haven't seen your other post but I'm guessing there's a few people on it asking you why you want to remove your nitrate and possibly advising you not to even bother. The best way of removing nitrate is to fill the tank with plants that will want to eat it.
Most people in here are concerned that the plants aren't getting enough hence dosing EI amounts to be on the safe side. You may be fortunate enough to have some for free coming right out the tap!  Should that be the case, you can look at your water changes as a huge bonus to the plants and not thinking they are killing your fish.

Just keep using the dechlo, stop worrying about the nitrate and get your fish and plants stocked back up gradually I would say mate.


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## Merls (9 Jan 2015)

Yeah i appreciate the suggestions and advice given here. Thanks again all


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