# Bolivian Rams in 60cm cube



## 3rdTimeLucky (19 Aug 2016)

Hi everyone.

I'm keen on some Bolivian Rams, but would like advice on stocking levels. My tank is a 60cm cube, so while it has a reasonably large water volume, it is not long. I have a sump, too. There is a thread about my tank here
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/low-tech-spider.42031/

I intend to keep overall sticking levels low, and currently have

8 cardinals
4 ottos
7 amanos
6 tiger shrimp.

I will probably add a small number of corys at some point (perhaps dwarf ones).

Ph is around 6.7. TDS around 150-180ppm.

The tank is reasonably heavily planted, and with more growth, I expect the number of hiding places to increase. So with that in mind, would people recommend a pair of Rams, two pairs, a larger group? I like the idea of a small group, but don't want issues/aggression.

Thanks 

Peter


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## Planted Bows (19 Aug 2016)

Hi Peter

First of all, very nice scape there 
Secondly IME rams prefer really soft water ie low ph and hardness etc. Will you be infecting Co2 into the ta k to help with a ph drop?



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## Planted Bows (19 Aug 2016)

Also only have a pair. Male and female if possible. They can be quite difficult to sex too.

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## 3rdTimeLucky (19 Aug 2016)

Hi PB

Thanks for the reply - I think the ph will gradually drop a bit more. The tank was started with treated tap water, which has a ph close to 8 where I live. The wood and substrate has helped bring it doe to around 6.7 when I last tested it. When I do water changes, I'm using RO water with a small amount of tap. Over the last three weeks this has brought the ph and hardness down. I'm not going to be injecting c02 - keeping this tank low tech (with easycarbo).

I thought Bolivian Rams were not too picky with ph levels and that below 7 would be fine? Is your experience different? Will my other listed livestock be OK of a ph lower than my current 6.7?

Gh and  kh were both around 4 when I last tested (a few days ago)


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## Planted Bows (19 Aug 2016)

Rams dont like to much change tbh. Your PH should be fine bit as long as it doesn't fluctuate to much. Blue rams are the worst for it. The rams your looking at are far more hardy but still prone to ph swings etc.

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## Planted Bows (19 Aug 2016)

As goes for your other livestock they shoukd be fine. Cardinals/ottos and your shrimp will adapt to your water conditions. If you are ever unsure have a look on www.fishbase.org. Its a brill website that gives you all the info you need bit don't worry to much if your ph is. 5 out its if it's over 1. Ph or more that's when you need to act but using ro system will reduce your ph Iver time anyway 

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## 3rdTimeLucky (19 Aug 2016)

Great - thanks for your help. I'd also read about the relative hardiness of the Bolivian ran, and also that they are more intelligent/interesting fish compared with the German Blue (although maybe that is subjective).

I assume the electric blue and gold Rams are types of German Ran and not types of Bolivian ram?


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## Planted Bows (19 Aug 2016)

Yes they are however I've kept all 3 and have had issues with all of them. The only way i was able to keep them was by injection of Co2 

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## Planted Bows (19 Aug 2016)

just found this


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## 3rdTimeLucky (19 Aug 2016)

Planted Bows said:


> just found this
> 
> 
> Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk


Thanks for the link - that article says the Bolivian Rams should be kept in groups of at least 6. Seems to contradict much of what I have read elsewhere. I've not read that they shouldn't be kept in groups, but have read that they also do well in pairs (and for smaller tanks, pairs are the ideal). Have you kept these fish in groups of 6 or more?


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## MrHidley (19 Aug 2016)

Fun fact, the Bolivian Ram in that picture was one of mine from years ago.


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## Planted Bows (19 Aug 2016)

How on earth did it get on the Internet? 

I personally haven't I've just had the pair. In all fairness I've kept more German blue rams than Bolivian 

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## MrHidley (19 Aug 2016)

Planted Bows said:


> How on earth did it get on the Internet?
> 
> I personally haven't I've just had the pair. In all fairness I've kept more German blue rams than Bolivian
> 
> Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk



I uploaded it to another forum about four or five years ago, I guess someone saw it and started using it for their website. I don't mind, they were beautiful fish.


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## Planted Bows (19 Aug 2016)

They look it  

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## alto (20 Aug 2016)

Seriously Fish is always a good starting point for species information
Mikrogeophagus

"Bolivian" Rams are generally much hardier & easier keeping than Rams, either would likely do fine in your tank - sourcing of either from a good shop is key, also depending on your location you might look for a local cichlid club - "homebred" rams of either type would likely be hardier than the commercial versions
While there are some decent commercially bred rams, what often appears on wholesale lists & hence in your local shop, is fragile, poorly bred, sometimes hybrid, sometimes hormoned fish (over size, too brightly colored, odd conformation) ... but don't give up  just examine any potential rams with a critical eye 

Beware of those sad little "balloon" rams - while these tend to be quite docile (& small), they often have significant health issues from the deformation.
The "balloon" mutation is also creeping into "normal" stock ... a recent shipment of "Holland" rams showed nice (red bias) coloration & activity but also odd rotund, stubby conformation 
 (I left them in the shop )

They are fun fish with loads of character & interesting behaviour but can be rather good shrimp hunters, though this is not a given - you can see a rather nice pair in this journal
Make sure that shrimp (& plants) are well established before adding in any rams.
It's generally best to begin with several juveniles & allow them to mature as a group, don't remove remaining fish at the first signs of a "pair" as they may go through some practise spawns with different partners ... also these are not really "pair bonding" fish, in nature spawn partners often change, so maintain the group as long as possible.

You may end up with a stable trio in this size of tank ...
Recently I kept a group of electric blue rams that were stable as a quintet, when I lost 2 during a bout of medication resistant ich, I ended up with a single female & 2 males which weren't happy individually, nor in "pairs", nor as a trio ... I finally rehomed the 2 males & kept the female (she's small & requires careful attention to maintain)   
  - note that I kept them in a heavily planted tank with lots of hollows etc, there was never any physical damage but they were clearly not as "happy" as previously & had also begin to harass tankmates, I was unable to find more electric blues (in general this color mutation is rather more docile than the gold rams & blue rams)

(the chocolate gouramis get first billing in my tanks)




3rdTimeLucky said:


> I assume the electric blue and gold Rams are types of German Ran and not types of Bolivian ram?


Electric Blue, Neon Blue, Gold, Blue, Holland, German etc are all color bred lines of _M ramirezi_
Bolivians seem to be limted to "wild type" coloration but "long fin" & "balloon" mutations are also available 
I've also seen shipments of what look to be an altispinosus/ramirezi hybrid


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## 3rdTimeLucky (20 Aug 2016)

alto said:


> Seriously Fish is always a good starting point for species information
> Mikrogeophagus



Yes, a brilliant website.



alto said:


> They are fun fish with loads of character



Great. This is exactly what i'm hoping for. I have a tank of Malawi Cichlids, which are being re-homed due to various reasons, and whilst I much prefer planted aquariums, i will be sad to see these fish go. They are so much fun to watch. Hopefully the bolivian rams will be a good substitute.



alto said:


> Make sure that shrimp (& plants) are well established before adding in any rams.



What do you mean by well-established? Plants have been in the tank for about 3 weeks, but growth has been relatively slow. Does that matter? Is it more about the plant roots being well-rooted? The amano shrimp have been in the tank for about 10 days, and the tiger shrimp only 48 hours. (ps thanks for your tips on shrimp in my other thread!  The tigers are a really nice rusty orange colour)



alto said:


> It's generally best to begin with several juveniles & allow them to mature as a group, don't remove remaining fish at the first signs of a "pair" as they may go through some practise spawns with different partners ... also these are not really "pair bonding" fish, in nature spawn partners often change, so maintain the group as long as possible.
> 
> You may end up with a stable trio in this size of tank ...



Is your opinion that eventually i will have to re-home some of them (if i buy a group of juveniles)? I'm not too concerned about trying to raise fry, as that just means i will have to rehome more fish. I am leaning more towards the bolivian rams, i think...


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## alto (20 Aug 2016)

Plants/shrimp established -
plants rooted & actively growing - most fish are quite capable of substrate sifting/digging, so it's a good idea to allow plants time to settle before adding in fish; fish are also quite capable of "trimming" new growth or bruising developing leaf tips through rambunctious activity (imagine bumbling Cory's & newly planted HC  )
With the plants you've listed, look for new leafs on the Crypts, also roots that secure plant in substrate; Anubias you may notice they've "rooted" to wood etc before you see much new leaf growth, the Bacopa & Ceratopteris thalictroides should show quite fast growth

Shrimp - I generally give them a couple weeks to settle in before adding fish into the mix, most shrimp can be quite (shockingly) fast but are often rather slow moving versions when first imported; they'll also find all the secret places
If you want shrimp (not Amano as they require a brackish environment for the released "larvae") to breed with some success you'll need a thicket of some sort for young shrimp to hide/grow ...
eg, I have a thick M 'Monte Carlo' carpet & baby shrimp live under there for several weeks, mosses serve well for this too but need time to form a fish-impervious-mass
Java moss tends to a "looser" texture than some of the others, so you might consider adding additional mosses for shrimp havens (most of the plants you've listed are quite open growth)



> Anubias barteri var. barteri
> Anubias barteri nana
> Anubias nana Mini
> Amazon frogbit (in the sump)
> ...



The Bolivian Rams are quite sturdy compared to _M ramirezi_, I'd look for quite young juveniles or wait another month or so (at least) before introducing them
(feeding frozen brine shrimp & bloodworms will generally optimize colors in these fish)

You may be able to keep a group of 5-7 in this tank (I always try for more girls than boys ie that odd # is always an extra female, I also prefer to have at least 2 males as they'll keep each other entertained somewhat & prevent them continually harassing the girls, & give the girls a choice), while males are often more "aggressive" than females, I've also experienced female rams taking on the role of Tank Tyrant (she got her own tank with guppy company)  
You may end up with only a compatible duo/trio - I give them a fair bit of time to sort things & only remove fish that always look unhappy (stress colors, loss of condition etc) as there is generally some give & take "squabbling" with these fish.

If you add some plants on "Bankwood" anchored near the top of the tank, this will provide a good haven for rams that may (likely) need moving out
(obviously you can easily make your own version, Eheim suction cups are among the "stickiest")

You might also look for some wood that you can mostly bury in the sand area - so you still retain that open appearance - that will provide some fish refuge.

It's been ages since I've kept Bolivian Rams (they aren't uncommon in the local shops but they're mostly poor quality) so I hope you keep your journal active


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## Planted Bows (20 Aug 2016)

Wow now thats a proper response lol

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## alto (20 Aug 2016)

There are some very nice juvenile photos in this thread


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## 3rdTimeLucky (1 Sep 2016)

Hi all,

Just to conclude this thread, I opted to go for a pair of apistogramma agassizzi flames. The Bolivian Rams in my LFS were very active and a bit boisterous (probably because of the size of tank they were in), but there was lots of fighting and one had lost an eye. 

When I saw he apistos I was transfixed. I think they will work better with the tranquil scape I am trying to put together!

thanks to everyone on here for their help and advice. I will add pictures of the new fish in my journal at some point.


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## alto (1 Sep 2016)

congratulations on finding a fish you really like 

lfs is supposed to be getting in some Bolivian rams this week so I'll be watching for similar uncivilized behaviours


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