# Removing the rim on the Juwel Rio 300



## Skatersav

Hi, I'm sitting in my living room staring at my Juwel Rio 300 and can't help but feel it would look much better without the faux wood rim round the top.  That got me thinking about opening the top up, hanging some awesome industrial style lights down from the ceiling to light the tank, and having loads of AWESOME plants growing out the top. It's got me really excited!  Amazing what will do that these days...

I guess it starts from understanding whether I can remove that rim and whether I need to replace the rim with some other structure to support the tank's rigidity.  The two plastic support straps that stretch across from front to back don't look like they do much - they aren't really very rigid - so maybe I don't need any replacement.

Does anyone have any experience of removing these rims?

Ta

Sav


----------



## Antipofish

I could well be wrong but does that rim not form part of the mechanical support for strength and stability ?


----------



## Skatersav

I think you are probably right.  I'm thinking I could probably replace it with some strips of glass around the edge, attached with silicon and some cross braces...  Maybe not...


----------



## hinch

add in some glass brace bars + front and rear full length lips for the brace bars and you can take the lid off no problems


----------



## Skatersav

Cool. thanks.  I take it I just attach using silicon?  Would I be able to leave any water in the tank while I do this? Say 1/3 of the water?


----------



## Alastair

Yes that would be ok. Better to be empty though 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## hinch

i wouldn't recommend leaving any water in it and make sure your full length bars and cross braces are quite thick glass and put the plastic rim back on after siliconing on the new bits of glass too as it'll help it keep its shape until the silicone has set (24 hours or more)

make sure you use 100% pure silicone though or aquarium safe I just got a few tubes of http://www.ffx.co.uk/tools/product/Aqua ... 9%20AQUATR as I have my 6 footer to strip and reseal before I set it back up and i've got a couple of 3 foot breeding tanks to make for a friend too


----------



## Skatersav

So i've ordered that silcon as recommended.  Thanks for the tip.  I'm going to speak to Greg the Wise in ADC (awesome shop on Great Portland Street in London) at the weekend and see what he recommends for a new lighting unit.  I'm thinking I may as well try and fab something up myself to make use of the 4 T5 bulbs I'm using at the moment...  BUt, then again, it could look quite cool with one or two big industrial lights, like this:




  (I've taken this image off http://olgagrandascott.blogspot.com).

Would need to think about what lighting type to use in it them though.  I reckon I could get something to work.

Will need to speak to a glass cutter as well...  My wife is going to have another baby when I tell her about my grand plans - I'm not exactly Britain's answer to McGuyver...


----------



## hinch

those lights look ace.

stick some halogen bulbs in and you'll be fine (or for the money concious go LED) you could hide alot of bulbs in those covers.


----------



## Viv

I'm glad you're going to put in some glass brace bars as they are needed. I had a rio 300 and at first it didn't have the brace bars attached. I didn't think it needed them. Then when we moved the tank (full) one time we noticed the front bowed out!!   Needless to say we put the bars on!! It had been braceless for about a year so might have been okay, but I think I was very lucky not to have a cracked tank.

Viv


----------



## Skatersav

So, a weekend later and I'm not really any further on.  I have been doing some thinking though...  I think it might be quite cool to make the bracing out of thick perspex.  The benefit to this would be that I could make the entire structure out of one piece of material which might look quite smart - getting a piece of glass made as per the below diagram is seemingly impossible (it must be possible, but I can't find anyone who'll do it).  Perspex would seem to be as strong (actually stronger) than glass under tension so I reckon it would be fine from that perspective.  The only question is whether it's possible to bond acrylic (perspex is a type of acrylic) to glass and it turns out you can't do it very effectively with aquarium silicone sealant.  Boo.

Fortunately, the clever chaps at the glue factory have taken some time off from melting down horses to do some creative cogitating.  No doubt predicting Skatersav's grand plans and subsequent predicament, they have come up with at least two solutions.  Bostik Titan Bond Plus and Evo-Tech TA431.  The former cures to an off-white colour which simply won't do, but the latter is apparently clear and colourless - it basically sounds like super glue.

I can already hear the cacophony of concerns from my fellow UKAPS enthusiasts:  SURELY THE PROCESS WILL TOXIFY YOUR FISH.  Well... perhaps.  And so my own cogitating continues while I mull over my options.

I sent the following drawings off to a guy who fabs up perspex stuff in London to get a quote:






And I thought I'd see what a lid would cost while I was at it:






I'm now working on the lighting solution while I wait for a quote on the above.


----------



## Skatersav

These can fit GU10 bulbs and you can get 6500k 11W LED bulbs in a GU10 fitting.  I reckon 3 of those will do the job as it should give around 150watts of equivalent light.  This is for a Juwel Rio 300 which I think is 350litres and about 60cm deep.

You can move the little brace up the wires so that the lights point directly downwards.

The alternative to the 11w LEDs is to go with three 50w or 75w halogens, but I've read these tend to be warmer light - closer to 3000k?.  That might look nicer in the room (this is basically going to be hanging down in the living room as my tank is in the centre of the room (i'll take some photos tonight)) but I understand that it won't be that great for the plants.  The plants will have no other source of light.

If anyone has any thoughts on this, please feel free to interject before I make what will no doubt be another expensive mistake...    :?


----------



## Skatersav

Nearly £400 for the perspex!  Puke!  £175 for the structure and the rest for the lid.  Need to shop around or revert to glass strips.


----------



## Viv

I don't know what you'd do about the structure but you get a sheet of perspex from your DIY store for the lid. They'd even cut to size for you if you've got one with a cutting service. 

I've had luck with 'cutting' thin perspex sheets by scoring them with a stanley knife, then placing something hard along the score and bending the rest up. Snaps clean as long as you keep the pressure even along the scored edge. Don't know if it would work on thicker sheets but I see no reason why not. This is how I made sliders for my bettas little tank.

Viv


----------



## Quetzalcoatl

I will be watching this thread with interest Skatersav. I had asked the same question a while back regarding removing the vile trim on my Rio180. 
After recieving good advice and comforting words of wisdom from members I still havn`t had the balls to go ahead and do it. I will await your attempt at the modification, and let you play Guinea Pig.


----------



## hinch

jigsaws or circular saws both cut perspex just fine trick is to move it fast and cut it with the plastic protection on then just use wet and dry on the edges to smooth them out again


----------



## Viv

Thanks for the tips hinch! 

Viv


----------



## hinch

bandsaws and recips will do it too  as will a good old hacksaw if you're lacking power tools 

use a fine a toothed blade as you can possibly find for a cleaner cut. larger teeth blades can make a mess on first cut but will be fine once moving


----------



## Skatersav

I promised some photos.  These are obviously pretty terrible but they give you an idea of what's going on.  The tank isn't as brightly lit as the photos would indicate.










Very light on the bio load right now but it's going to stay that way until I finish the lighting and lid issue.

There is some limited progress on the lighting side and I am hoping I will have a meaningful update on things by the end of the weekend.  Thanks for all the sage advice.

S


----------



## hinch

thats a lovely bit of wood but just remember those torpedo barbs will outgrow that tank in the future


----------



## Skatersav

you reckon they'll outgrow a 300 litre tank?  Surprised.  Thought this would be sufficient...


----------



## hinch

they'll grow into the 15cm-20cm range and they like lots of space to swim in 300 is really the smallest tank i'd consider putting them in especially in larger groups. from their current size though you have a good while yet before they're "too big" but just bear it in mind


----------



## Skatersav

Thanks for the heads up.  They are really cool fish.  I'd have more but I had a problem with some sort of parasite that worked its way through four of them.  Very upsetting.  A few flubendazole treatments seemed to do the trick and the remaining five have been very healthy since.  I had considered adding a few more, but they seem very happy in a school of five and actually mix in with the five siamese flying foxes (or whatever they are) that I have in the tank.  Given your point regarding size, I definitely won't be adding more.

Do you think I'll have problems finding them a new home when they are fully grown?


----------



## hinch

naah you shouldn't struggle at all if you do i'll rehome them they can join my group


----------



## Skatersav

Cheers!


----------



## awtong

I have 3 of the Torpedo's in a 450l and the biggest one is now about 10cm but the others always stay a little smaller.  It has taken them around 3 years to grow from small young fish to this size.  I started them in a 125l and moved them upwards as they grew.  My three also show the same behaviour and shoal with my 2 siamese flying foxes.  It seems they must like each other company!


----------



## hinch

I think that shoaling is due to the similar shape and similar dark line down the side since the barbs like to be in groups of 8-10 ideally but if they don't have sufficient numbers of their own kind they join with others.
I only have 5 but they're currently on holiday in a friends tank until I finish decorating and set the big tank back up


----------



## awtong

That would certainly make sense.  I had 5 babies to start with but only have 3 left that have matured.  The 3 seem happy enough on their own so I havent added any more.

The Torpedo's certainly look nice in your tank Skatersav!


----------



## Skatersav

Well, thank you.  The fish seem very happy and have been growing a little.  I still have quite a bit of work to do on it:    

 - Some of the plants grow really well but I can't get the carpet plants to grow much at all.  Starting a more rigorous fert and water change programme and I hope this will work.  I've also moved the flow around a bit to try and make sure there are no stagnant areas - that piece of wood is a fair old hindrance but I think I've sorted it out now.

 - I also need to get some more moss and plant growth on the top of the wood as there is a flat section as a result of where it has been cut and it is a little unsightly - good progress being made on that front though.

 - I want rid of the rim and a new lighting system - the original reason for this post.

 - And, finally, I am considering replacing all the plastic tubes at the back with nice stainless steel pipework.  I have two external filters and all the pipework is a bit ugly.

Out of all of this, I think the hardest thing will be getting the carpet plants to grow - some people just seem to find that bit dead easy, but I've never had much success...  I'm hoping the new flow and the fert/water change programme will help.


----------



## Skatersav

Update:

1. Glass strips acquired.  I have opted to go with the glass strips rather than the perspex as I wasn't sure about the adhesive I would need and glass was easier to get hold of.  10mm glass, 60mm width, 1 for each side of the tank and one cross bar to extend front to back in the centre of the tank.

2. Lighting solution acquired - but I think have made a schoolboy error here.  I have purchased two luverly stainless steel shades, 10m of white wire, two BC fitting (22mm) lamp holders, two plugs and two compact fluorescent 30W bulbs (6400K).  This all looks great on the basis that the bulbs have an equivalent rating of 125W each, but I think that's an incandescent bulb equivalent.  The four T5s I have at the moment produce about 16k lumens, whereas my new solution will only be around 3600...  Obviously, the 2W/gallon rule-of-thumb is assuming fluorescent lighting and so I think I may be under-cooking it now.  4 50W T5s is probably overkill, but 60W won't likely be sufficient, especially if there's some emersed planting going on.  So, I might be back to the drawing board on that front.

3. Rim removed.  This was an absolute see you next tuesday.  I think it may have been the most physical thing I have done in the past ten years.  Not saying much given I'm a complete layabout, but still: be warned.  You have to run a thin and flexible blade around the outside of the tank, especially where the cross beams are situated and then run a knife around the inside.  Care is needed not to scratch the tank, and this slows things down a bit.  When it finally tore away, the feeling of relief was something different to what I had expected before commencing the process.

2. Excess silicone sealant removed.  This was also a fairly painful exercise.  Whoever made the tank definitely wasn't incentivised to reduce silicone wastage.  There is tonnes of it and it takes ages to scratch off.

3. Front and rear glass strips in place.  I used G-clamps and rubber pads to hold the strips in place.  I put the silicone sealant along the three edges that abut the glass walls of the tank and was careful to ensure no bubbles in the joint between the strip and the front/rear panel.  I intend to scrape off excess prior to fitting the cross spars.

That's as far as I've got.  I'm slightly concerned about my plants drying out although I have left a little water in the tank which is still circulating through one of the filters and the return is positioned in an attempt to keep the plants wet - some are attached to the big log which I am definitely not moving.  I'll put up some photos (including some of the rim removal process) when I've put in the cross spars this evening.

Cheers, S


----------



## m_attt

sounds a mare, but look forward to the photos have contemplated doing this myself.


----------



## Skatersav

The more I think about it, the more I think I need to use a metal halide unit.  Nothing else is both small enough and powerful enough, whilst still delivering the right colour.

LEDs: can't get enough lumen into the shades I've got.
Halogens:  can't get the right colour.  Tend to be 3000k.
Incandescents: as per halogens.
Fluorescents: Can't get enough lumen into the shades I've selected.
Metal Halides:  Meets all the requirements, but it means a lot more money and a bit of concern regarding heat production.

So, I either have to go back to the drawing board on the shades, or go with metal halides and fork out money for the ballasts (not sure my electrical expertise is sufficient for this either).

More study needed.  I hope I don't have to put the shades I've just bought back on ebay.  I really like them.


----------



## greenink

I spent ages trying to work out a DIY LED solution - was going to say that you need a LOT of GU10 bulbs for each T5... And in the end it's cheaper to buy an Aquaray or MH.... or just a suspended T5 luminaire..

The one thing that would work (if your shades are big enough) is a super high output cfl) but I've never dared. They are massive bulbs though 25 cms! See half way down this page

http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com ... mpact.html


----------



## Skatersav

Interesting you should suggest that Mike.  In addition to the BC fittings and 30w fluorescents that I acquired, I bought 2x 125W compact fluorescents from Growell on a 30 day return policy.  I'm thinking the latter might well be the solution I need but they are indeed extremely large - 380mm long including the fitting.  Having had a look about, there are megaman bulbs of around 100W that are only around 280mm long so maybe I trade in for those.  Both of these use an E40 screw fitting.  The problem with that fitting is that most lamp units that fit that bulb are built for metal halides and have a built in driver - they tend to be those massive bay lights that you see in warehouses.  However, unless you move up to metal halide, this would seem to be the highest lumens/unit volume of light outside of strip lighting so good advice - thanks...  More on that later.

Update on the tank:

So, having removed the lid and stripped back as much of the excess silicone as my soft hands would allow, I have now installed the glass rims.  I installed the front and rear strips first, clamping them in place with G-clamps and some wee rubber pads.  I left these for 24 hours to cure and then installed the three front to back strips.

Picture showing all the silicon round the tank's rim before clean up:






Picture showing g-clamps holding the cross bars in place:





I figured that the cross bars needed pressed against the strips on the front and back to create a strong bond.  My wife is a design engineer and very good at arts and crafts - she told me to leave any excess silicone until it set and then remove it with a sharp knife.  For what it's worth, I think she has been working with marker pens and superglue too much - I would recommend scraping off the excess while it is still wet as I'm seeing a much tidier finish where I have done that.

So, tonight, I think I can refill the tank a bit.  I'm not going to take it all the way up to the top, but I'm keen to get a bit more water into it to keep the critters and plants happy.  Currently it's around 25% full but this includes lots of wood and substrate so there really isn't much in the way of swimming space in there.  Given all the disruption to the substrate, there is probably a bit of an ammonia spike going on...  Further, with the reduced volume and open top, heat loss is bound to be much higher so the heater will doubtless be struggling to keep the water temperature up above room temp.  The barbs should be fine for a short period of time, but I'm not sure how the inverts will cope.  Anyway, tonight I refill to around half full.

Still to do:

 - Decide on lighting solution.  Current thinking is CFLs with bigger shades than I currently have.
 - Acquire stainless steel tubing to replace nasty green plastic pipes - the pressure has upped on this modification because the eheim u-bends don't stretch over the glass rim (another schoolboy error...) and I'm having to fab up a temporary solution.

Cheers.  S


----------



## greenink

liking this diy approach, with warts and all. much more interesting than doing it all slickly from the start. 

cheaper by far and less hassle than stainless steel would be acrylic pipe, a paint stripping gun and a pipe bending spring. 

I've done it a few times and comes out nifty. about to do properly for my new big tank - will post up proper DIY pictures now I've learned how to do it...


----------



## Skatersav

Acrylic pipes do sound good.  Are you talking clear and colourless tubes?  That could look better than stainless.  Might look into that and good idea regarding the paint gun.  I'm going to have a go at that as well.  Cheers.


----------



## greenink

Yup pictures in my journal and link in the post above to where you get them


----------



## Skatersav

Quick update:
 - Acrylic pipes have arrived.
 - Paint stripper gun has arrived.
 - Pipe bend spring has arrived.
 - 1x 300w inline heater has arrived (thought that given I'm going through some fairly serious tank hardware upgrading I might as well do this bit too).
 - Rubber sucker clips for the pipes have arrived.

Still waiting for:
 - 2x Megaman 100W daylight CFLs.
 - 2 lamp shades that should fit the above and look quite good from the photos on the interweb.

So, should have the pipes all done this week and hopefully the lights finished next week.  I'll post photos when there's something to show.

Cheers, S


----------



## greenink

Thought a bit more detail on the acrylic might be useful. So here you go...


----------



## Skatersav

I'm lovine the acrylic pipe bending thing. I'm about half way through prepping up my tank. Haven't been able to get a lily pipe made though: not enough puff. Either that or I've got thicker walled tubes. Very pleased with this DIY trick otherwise. Will post photos tomorrow. Thanks!


----------



## bazz

photo's? enjoying this!


----------



## Skatersav

So, I got there in the end.  I used two 100W compact fluorescents from Megaman, 6500k.  I used two metal shades that I found on ebay and fabbed up the fittings, hung down from the ceiling.

The pipework I put in, perspex, is now getting dirty unfortunately and I didn't think to put in any breaks - hence it is now impossible to clean.  So, I am going to have to cut some joins into it in due course.

I'm also still having problems with the carpet plants, which I think is down to bad flow - I'm going to have to keep working on that which I can do when I redo my pipework.














Ta da!

Things still to do:

1. I'm using a Jewel powerhead to get extra flow - It's really noisy and I'm not convinced I need it if I can reposition the flow from my two external filters - Needs some more work and thought.

2. Need to get the carpet plants going better - totally lame coverage at the moment - think this relates to point 1.

3. Need to put breaks into the perspex tubes for the filter because they are currently getting dirty and I can't clean them - duh.

4. Need to tidy up the silicon job round the edge of the tank - I can't really be bothered to do this though and it doesn't look too bad.


----------



## awtong

I love those light units  

Andy


----------



## dean

this looks like a completely new tank now but i thought there were to be plants growing out of it?


----------



## Kristoph91

Think Homebase sells a thing called a drain snake. Good for cleaning pipework. 

Looks much better by the way! Great lights


----------



## HarryRobinson

For the problem with your flow i would suggest getting one of these : http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/hydor-k ... -5016.html Amazing water flow, multi-directional and also quiet! The tank is looking fab by the way


----------



## Skatersav

Regarding the plants growing out the top - Yep, not quite there yet.  Hoping my lotus puts up some pads and flowers but still quite small (growing quickly though).  Also, I want to put in a new stem plant.  that can grow up and out.  Any suggestions are welcome.

Regarding the flow.  Thanks for the advice Harry.  I've bought exactly that device and will see if it improves things.

Regarding dirty pipes.  I'm going to get one of those pipe cleaners on the way home!  Cheers for the advice.

Thanks for the compliments as well.  I'm not there with the plants, but the hardware certainly looks better.  I'll try and take a better picture as well this weekend.


----------



## Skatersav

I like sitting at the end of my fish tank looking down it.  The internal reflections make it look CRAZY in there.






Still having problems with the carpet plants.  Going to buy another Korelia power head and then up the CO2.  Trying to build slowly because I really like my fish.

Ps. Gregory Porter is king.


----------

