# Fish arriving DOA, freezing cold



## AlecF (7 Dec 2022)

Sad to report, I just received an overnight delivery from one of the UKs most reputable fish retailers, with 6 ember tetra and 2 Apistogramma Borelli. The Apistogramma were DOA, and have very red bellies; the ember are struggling and swimming on their side, but may pull through. It's been reported before, but bears repeating, posting fish in cold weather is a risk. This retailer uses a specialist courier who they recommend. The water temperature in the bags on arrival was 62 degrees, so it's no wonder. I haven't had this happen before. It's disappointing. I will now report it to the retailer. As someone with a disability I tend to depend on postal suppliers.


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## Conort2 (7 Dec 2022)

AlecF said:


> Sad to report, I just received an overnight delivery from one of the UKs most reputable fish retailers, with 6 ember tetra and 2 Apistogramma Borelli. The Apistogramma were DOA, and have very red bellies; the ember are struggling and swimming on their side, but may pull through. It's been reported before, but bears repeating, posting fish in cold weather is a risk. This retailer uses a specialist courier who they recommend. The water temperature in the bags on arrival was 62 degrees, so it's no wonder. I haven't had this happen before. It's disappointing. I will now report it to the retailer. As someone with a disability I tend to depend on postal suppliers.


That’s a real shame, a lot of retailers won’t ship over winter once the temperatures get below 5 degrees overnight to prevent this from happening. It’s been getting pretty cold now so I’m surprised they shipped.


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## AlecF (7 Dec 2022)

Yes. I'd said to them I was in no hurry. The embers have recovered.


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## mort (7 Dec 2022)

I'm sorry about that. Did the shipper use a heatpack at all? Was the courier Apc? They used to be the only livestock courier and were very good (never shipped fish but did send out lots of corals with them).


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## tigertim (7 Dec 2022)

Wouldn'y have thought a short spell at 62 f would of killed them ?


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## mort (7 Dec 2022)

tigertim said:


> Wouldn'y have thought a short spell at 62 f would of killed them ?



Borellii can definitely take it and 16-17c is comfortable to them but sometimes it's the drop in temperature that can be a problem.


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## AlecF (7 Dec 2022)

There was just one piece of foil wrap and one sheet of newspaper, no heat packs, which was disappointing -   I've usually had them.  Shipper was DX express. It wasn't APC. I imagine they'd been in a cold van all night, or maybe a depot. The embers were really struggling, but the Borelli were gonners, with very red bellies.


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## shangman (7 Dec 2022)

I got some marine creatures (no fish) last week and even with overnight shipping,  polystyrene box and a heat pack the water was still quite cold and a fire shrimp wasn’t moving upside down in the bag. When I poked  it it still wiggled some  legs a bit, and then processed to make a surprising full recovered after a slow acclimation to temperature. Definitely won’t be ordering anything else that way until Spring !


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## MichaelJ (7 Dec 2022)

AlecF said:


> Sad to report, I just received an overnight delivery from one of the UKs most reputable fish retailers, with 6 ember tetra and 2 Apistogramma Borelli. The Apistogramma were DOA, and have very red bellies; the ember are struggling and swimming on their side, but may pull through. It's been reported before, but bears repeating, posting fish in cold weather is a risk. This retailer uses a specialist courier who they recommend. The water temperature in the bags on arrival was 62 degrees, so it's no wonder. I haven't had this happen before. It's disappointing. I will now report it to the retailer. As someone with a disability I tend to depend on postal suppliers.



@AlecF I'm sorry to hear about to your loss,

It's just unconscionable for the retailer not to do this right with livestock. If their packaging can't guarantee safe overnight delivery due to temperature they should just postpone.

I've had quite a few fish and shrimps shipments from Aquactic Arts out of Indiana to Minnesota in rather cold temperatures. Their packaging is superb (heat packs) and guaranteed to keep the fish at proper temperature for FedEx overnight delivery - It's also shipped with a sticker that says live animals, which at an extra cost makes FedEx use extra precaution and expedite the home delivery.

Cheers,
Michael


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## AlecF (7 Dec 2022)

Yes, this had a sticker. Th fact it was 61 degrees on arrival doesn't mean it wasn't even colder en route. Heat pads are a minimum. The postage costs charged are high so it's right to expect due care.


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## mort (7 Dec 2022)

I'd very much question them as to why they didn't feel the need to add a heatpack. It's a modest order but it shouldn't matter.

Taking the emotion out of it it's annoying that they will either offer replacements, where you pay for postage again, or refund the apistogramma, which makes the embers very expensive. You shouldn't have to pay for their cutting corners.


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## AlecF (7 Dec 2022)

I'm expecting or assuming they will replace the DOA and send them free, but no reply yet. If I don't hear by the end of tomorrow I will name them and send a complaint. I sent them photos, including of the thermometer. Heat packs should always be included. I have said that already.


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## Conort2 (7 Dec 2022)

AlecF said:


> There was just one piece of foil wrap and one sheet of newspaper, no heat packs, which was disappointing -   I've usually had them.  Shipper was DX express. It wasn't APC. I imagine they'd been in a cold van all night, or maybe a depot. The embers were really struggling, but the Borelli were gonners, with very red bellies.


This isn’t good enough at all unfortunately. I’d question this. I’m guessing it was the standard 30 pound delivery charge most suppliers issue?


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## Mr.Shenanagins (7 Dec 2022)

Unless they guarantee delivery, or specifically state they will use heat packs, you cannot blame them. No accusations either which way here, but most reputable places are pretty clear in their shipping policies. Again not attacking you just playing devils advocate .Gradual temperature change shouldn’t kill fish that quickly and that isn’t a fatal temperature so it could be something else going on.


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## PARAGUAY (8 Dec 2022)

tigertim said:


> Wouldn'y have thought a short spell at 62 f would of killed them ?


Sudden temperature drops and fluctuations are the problem rather than a gradual drop. Most retailers recieved them in polystyrene boxes


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## Wookii (8 Dec 2022)

AlecF said:


> Shipper was DX express. It wasn't APC.



Are DX Express (never heard of them before) even licenced by the APHA to ship live fish?

The reason most places use APC is that they have systems and controls in places specifically for shipping live fish - I don't know for sure, but I would guess that includes some temperature controlled storage?

If your retailer won't play ball, then your get out for a full refund is them (possibly) not using an authorised carrier.


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## AlecF (8 Dec 2022)

Mr.Shenanagins said:


> Unless they guarantee delivery, or specifically state they will use heat packs, you cannot blame them. No accusations either which way here, but most reputable places are pretty clear in their shipping policies. Again not attacking you just playing devils advocate .Gradual temperature change shouldn’t kill fish that quickly and that isn’t a fatal temperature so it could be something else going on.


Yes, you can blame them. Sending live animals involves a duty of care. Also, I recorded the temperature on arrival at 11am, so obviously the temperature overnight en route would be lower.  It was freezing and below that night. Scotland isn't South Carolina. In my experience most shops use a heat pack, for a reason. I don't really understand why you'd suggest they can have policies which would harm animals; the amount they charge covers the costs of a heat pack.  They have now apologised and will replace the Apistogramma. My guess is they forgot to add heat packs, or someone got lazy. Yes, it was a standard delivery charge. The main issue for me was that this was from one of the most reputable traders. I've had good service from them before.  I've asked that if they resend either to wait for warmer weather or include extra heat pads.


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## AlecF (8 Dec 2022)

On eBay the shop suggested they use DX as a specialist company, so I stressed to them that this wasn't working.


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## Wookii (8 Dec 2022)

AlecF said:


> The main issue for me was that this was from one of the most reputable traders.



Which seller was it?


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## Conort2 (8 Dec 2022)

Wookii said:


> Are DX Express (never heard of them before) even licenced by the APHA to ship live fish?


A lol of retailers seem to be using them now. Not sure what the reason is behind it.

The two retailers I use that ship to me have always used them since I’ve been ordering online.

Cheers


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## Conort2 (8 Dec 2022)

AlecF said:


> I've asked that if they resend either to wait for warmer weather or include extra heat pads.


They should wait until it’s warmer. I’m still surprised they were sent in the first place. Everyone I use places a blanket ban on shipping through winter.

What retailer is it?


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## AlecF (8 Dec 2022)

It was Sims, who I've had good experiences with before, so I was surprised. They always seemed one of the better retailers, with a very wide range of stock. I'm hoping it was an oversight.


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## Myrtle (8 Dec 2022)

I ordered some shrimp a few days ago, not realising that there was a Royal Mail strike happening (I don't watch the news!). The seller has dispatched them, via Royal Mail, with a delivery date of 17th!! No contact to say about delays etc as I'd have been happy to wait or use a courier. I'm not expecting many to survive and won't be using them again either. This wasn't Sims btw.


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## Mr.Shenanagins (8 Dec 2022)

AlecF said:


> It was freezing and below that night. Scotland isn't South Carolina. In my experience most shops use a heat pack, for a reason. I don't really understand why you'd suggest they can have policies which would harm animals; the amount they charge covers the costs of a heat pack.


All clarification not originally explained so thank you. I’m no stranger to weather changes, it can be 70+ Fahrenheit here in the winter and drop to freezing here at night  easily during the winter. Some retailers will require you to add heat packs/cold packs on your own when checking out, that’s why I mentioned that. Glad they are replacing them for you.


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## MichaelJ (9 Dec 2022)

Mr.Shenanagins said:


> it can be 70+ Fahrenheit here in the winter and drop to freezing here at night easily during the winter


I can testify to that!  I am not in the south though, but the temperature swings here in the upper midwest, especially in the fall, are insane!

Cheers,
Michael


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## PARAGUAY (9 Dec 2022)

Last time l ordered online,(shrimp,)from AE they gave a specific  time frame for the delivery because dealing with livestock not anything like a typical parcel. So couriers have a indefendsable duty of care to keep to it and in transit must meet all the needs. and the purchaser also to recieve . @AlecF  the  courier is at huge fault IMO


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## AlecF (9 Dec 2022)

Yes, that's why I sent the seller such a clear message, with time of arrival and temperature. If they consider it undue to deliver they should decline the order. However, I think the absence of heat packs makes the shop also responsible.


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## Conort2 (9 Dec 2022)

AlecF said:


> Yes, that's why I sent the seller such a clear message, with time of arrival and temperature. If they consider it undue to deliver they should decline the order. However, I think the absence of heat packs makes the shop also responsible.


Did you not get a message from dx express either? You should get a notification telling you delivery time.


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## Aqua sobriquet (9 Dec 2022)

I’ve never liked the idea of buying live animals by post and doing so in this weather is surely going to be a death sentence for many.


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## AlecF (9 Dec 2022)

I got a notification time, but that doesn't really help with weather conditions. They always advise they are delivering them and they were eon time, the issue is the conditions in the van. They did come overnight, so despite the weather I think with enough heat packs they could be OK.


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## mort (9 Dec 2022)

Couriers don't have heated vans and you pay the premium for a speedy delivery. It might be livestock but all the early parcels just go on the delivery van together. 

Poly boxes are pretty good and it's the lack of a heatpack, I believe in this instance, that's the issue. We used to get boxes delivered in this kind of, and much colder, conditions, where the transit time was a couple of days, rather than overnight, and it's the preparation of the shipper that makes the difference.


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## Conort2 (9 Dec 2022)

Personally I think it’s too risky in these conditions. I think the retailers should be considering the welfare of the fish here. The two I use definitely won’t ship now. In fact one of them personally delivered the fish instead of making me wait for when the warmer weather returns which I thought was great. 

Cheers


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## Myrtle (9 Dec 2022)

I was a bit hasty in my judgement of the seller I purchased from - 2 heat packs and a ton of insulation for 10 juvie shrimp and actually arrived the next day despite the estimated delivery date of 17th! It was mild when I ordered but now it's really dropped, I won't be ordering anything that can't tolerate low temps. Pity, as I was hoping for some killies.


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## Aqua360 (9 Dec 2022)

Myrtle said:


> I was a bit hasty in my judgement of the seller I purchased from - 2 heat packs and a ton of insulation for 10 juvie shrimp and actually arrived the next day despite the estimated delivery date of 17th! It was mild when I ordered but now it's really dropped, I won't be ordering anything that can't tolerate low temps. Pity, as I was hoping for some killies.


Try some eggs! Not that they'll handle heat better, but much easier to insulate


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## Myrtle (9 Dec 2022)

Aqua360 said:


> Try some eggs! Not that they'll handle heat better, but much easier to insulate


I have actually been toying with the idea of eggs


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## sparkyweasel (9 Dec 2022)

I've raised killies from eggs. It's easy and fun, and the p&p is a lot cheaper 
But I was already set up to produce lots of fry food, which is the main factor in success.


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## Myrtle (9 Dec 2022)

I'm only feeding 3 Betta fry at the moment so I have a few microworms spare! Mind you, my Sparkling Gourami are also getting it on so may have a few of those to raise too. What other foods were your killie fry raised with?  I'm failing with white worms but they'd be a bit big!


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## sparkyweasel (10 Dec 2022)

Newly-hatched Brine Shrimps and microworms for the killies. 
You will probably need infusoria if your Sparkling Gouramis breed, unless their tank is mature enough to be full of tiny food already. My Sparkling, and Croaking Gouramis weren't impressed with microworms, even when they grew a bit bigger (they are very tiny when they hatch).
But yours might take to them, it's worth trying as you have got the culture.


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## Myrtle (10 Dec 2022)

Cheers! Their tank is rainwater so hopefully there's plenty of microorganisms in there and ones that hitched a ride along with the daphnia.


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## Mr.Shenanagins (14 Dec 2022)

@AlecF  did you receive your replacement fish? Or are they waiting for better weather to ship.


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## Courtneybst (14 Dec 2022)

Sorry to hear that Alec! I think that's crazy they didn't use heat packs to ship livestock at this time of year! A bit of tin foil and newspaper wouldn't keep your dinner warm let alone live animals!

Another thing I've noticed some retailers fail to realise is that often the type of heat packs used (when they are used), require air to heat them up and keep them warm. It sounds counter productive but there needs to be some kind of ventilation otherwise the heat pack will just cool off, no matter how many you stuff in there. 

Hopefully they can come to a reasonable resolution with you.


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## AlecF (14 Dec 2022)

I think they simply forgot the heat packs through an oversight. They are resending on 21st with extra heat packs.


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## Aqua sobriquet (14 Dec 2022)

Only my personal opinion but given the freezing temperatures I would have cancelled the order and asked for a refund or a credit note.
 At least until the weather gets warmer.


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## AlecF (14 Dec 2022)

I have asked them to consider if it's safe. As they are experienced and haven't reported similar issues, my hope is that the problem was because they forgot to pack a heat pack, and that if they pack additional ones, as they promise, then it will be safe. I will reflect on it. I understand the worries, but I don't think these issues happen often, even in cold weather, or they'd be reported more in websites?


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## mort (15 Dec 2022)

The amount of heat packs depends on how much water volume there is as well as the temperature. Adding more heatpacks can create a boil in the bag affect, depending on which ones are used. 
If it was cold, it can be sometimes easier to add more insulating water volume imo.

I've not used the company and don't know much about them. I'm also not suggesting anything about their ability to ship fish as I don't have anything other than your previous shipment to go against.  I don't want to slag anyone off but from a quick look at their website I personally wouldn't want to use them for other reasons.


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## hypnogogia (15 Dec 2022)

Interesting to see that another online retailer has suspended deliveries during the cold snap we are having.


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## Wookii (15 Dec 2022)

mort said:


> I don't want to slag anyone off but from a quick look at their website I personally wouldn't want to use them for other reasons.



Yeah, their website didn't fill me with much confidence either - nor their prices!


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## AlecF (15 Dec 2022)

Wookii said:


> Yeah, their website didn't fill me with much confidence either - nor their prices!


Do you mean Sims @Wookii ? I'd be interested to know why. I'm always keen to learn. The website seemed good to me and the range of fish broad. I have bought from them before without problems. But you have a lot more experience, so I'd welcome your thoughts.


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