# Dosing of CSM+B and Fe-DTPA 11%



## Zak Rafik (15 Jun 2015)

Hi guys,
I'm going to dose CSM+B and Fe DTPA 11% for my 80 gallon tank (310 Ltrs)
My target for Fe is 0.7ppm per week.
Dosing plan : 
3 times a week.
Using a stock solution of 500ml water+traces.
Can the members here guide me on how to achieve this target.
What ratio is the CSM+B to Fe, is it 2:1 ratio?

I just bought a small weighing scale and so would prefer the values in grammes.
Thank you in advance.
Cheers.


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## Zak Rafik (16 Jun 2015)

Any one?


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## ian_m (16 Jun 2015)

1. Most people use EI dosing here so may not be familiar with CSM+B and DTPA Iron.

2. CSM+B already has FE @ 7% EDTA, so why are you adding more ? I assume your are dosing CSM+B to Fe 0.5ppm then adding Fe to get it to 0.7ppm dose, for what ever reason you think you need more Fe ?

3. Try the calculator here which states 4 tsp (24gr) CSM+B into 500ml bottle dosing 50ml per dose will give 0.5ppm Fe.
http://yanc.rotalabutterfly.com/

4. Might be just better dry dosing, with such a large tank as your mix bottles won't last long as you are having to dose 50ml. You can't mix the solution much stronger as CSM+B is not that soluble.
Dry dosing CSM+B is 1/2 tsp per dose (2.4gr) will give 0.5ppm and 1/8 tsp (0.7gr) will add that extra 0.2ppm. All approximate is fine, as I bet your tank is not 310l, filter volume ?, water level ?, substrate volume  ?, hardscape volume ?

P.S. Don't bother with scales you will get transfixed with numbers and it all go pear shaped. 1tsp =5-6gr.


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## Marcel G (16 Jun 2015)

0.7 ppm Fe in 2:1 ratio = approx. 0.5 ppm + 0.2 ppm
1) 0.5 ppm Fe-EDTA (13%) = CSM+B
2) 0.2 ppm Fe-DTPA (11%)

1) Fe-EDTA = 13% Fe (0.13)
--------------------------
In 59.5 g of *Fe-EDTA* (dissolved in 500 mL of water) is 7.735 g Fe (59.5*0.13).
So in 500 mL of our stock solution we have 7.735 g Fe.
In 10 mL of this solution is 0.1547 g Fe (7.735*10/500).
When we dissolve 0.1547 g Fe (= 10 mL solution) in 310L of water, we get *0.499 ppm Fe* (0.1547*1000/310).

2) Fe-DTPA = 11% Fe (0.11)
--------------------------
In 28 g of *Fe-DTPA* (dissolved in 500 mL of water) is 3.08 g Fe (28*0.11).
So in 500 mL of our stock solution we have 3.08 g Fe.
In 10 mL of this solution is 0.0616 g Fe (3.08*10/500).
When we dissolve 0.0616 g Fe (= 10 mL solution) in 310L of water, we get *0.199 ppm Fe* (0.0616*1000/310).

I hope this helps.
I hope I did not made any mistake.


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## Marcel G (16 Jun 2015)

I made a mistake! So again (as I'm not allowed to edit the previous message already):

0.7 ppm Fe in 2:1 ratio = approx. 0.5 ppm + 0.2 ppm
1) 0.5 ppm Fe-EDTA in Plantex CSM+B (6.52%)
2) 0.2 ppm Fe-DTPA (11%)

1) Fe-EDTA in Plantex CSM+B = 6.5% (0.065)
--------------------------
In 119 g of *Fe-EDTA* (dissolved in 500 mL of water) is 7.735 g Fe (119*0.065).
So in 500 mL of our stock solution we have 7.735 g Fe.
In 10 mL of this solution is 0.1547 g Fe (7.735*10/500).
When we dissolve 0.1547 g Fe (= 10 mL solution) in 310L of water, we get *0.499 ppm Fe* (0.1547*1000/310).

2) Fe-DTPA = 11% Fe (0.11)
--------------------------
In 28 g of *Fe-DTPA* (dissolved in 500 mL of water) is 3.08 g Fe (28*0.11).
So in 500 mL of our stock solution we have 3.08 g Fe.
In 10 mL of this solution is 0.0616 g Fe (3.08*10/500).
When we dissolve 0.0616 g Fe (= 10 mL solution) in 310L of water, we get *0.199 ppm Fe* (0.0616*1000/310).

PS: I don't know if you can dissolve 119 g of Fe-EDTA + 28 g of Fe-DTPA in 500 ml of distilled water.
If not, then you should lower the amounts of Fe-chelates, and dose bigger dosages.
All the calculated values are a weekly dose! So in case you want to dose 3-times a week, you need to divide the 10 mL (= weekly dose) by 3, and dose 3-times 3.3 mL.


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## Zak Rafik (16 Jun 2015)

ian_m said:


> 1. Most people use EI dosing here so may not be familiar with CSM+B and DTPA Iron.


Humm...Interesting. I see this is heavily talked about on other forums and by Tom Barr also.



ian_m said:


> 2. CSM+B already has FE @ 7% EDTA, so why are you adding more ? I assume your are dosing CSM+B to Fe 0.5ppm then adding Fe to get it to 0.7ppm dose, for what ever reason you think you need more Fe ?


I saw a post where Tom Barr mentioned this. As I'm having shrimps. I don't want to add too much traces ( which contain copper) but add more Fe.



ian_m said:


> 3. Try the calculator here which states 4 tsp (24gr) CSM+B into 500ml bottle dosing 50ml per dose will give 0.5ppm Fe.
> http://yanc.rotalabutterfly.com/


Thanks the above link. 
I tried http://rota.la/ and http://calc.petalphile.com/en/ but the links don't work any more.
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/calculator.htm doesn't mention CSM+B



ian_m said:


> 4. Might be just better dry dosing, with such a large tank as your mix bottles won't last long as you are having to dose 50ml. You can't mix the solution much stronger as CSM+B is not that soluble.
> Dry dosing CSM+B is 1/2 tsp per dose (2.4gr) will give 0.5ppm and 1/8 tsp (0.7gr) will add that extra 0.2ppm. All approximate is fine, as I bet your tank is not 310l, filter volume ?, water level ?, substrate volume  ?, hardscape volume ?


Yup you're right. The actual vol is 285 Lts.



ian_m said:


> P.S. Don't bother with scales you will get transfixed with numbers and it all go pear shaped. 1tsp =5-6gr.


Yeah I know that but I was just curious to know. Anyway the new scale was cheap but accurate. I do have one which measure up to 3 decimal points ( used in the diamond industry) but my wife will kill me if I use that.

P.S. Appreciate your reply.
Good day.


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## Zak Rafik (16 Jun 2015)

ardjuna said:


> I made a mistake! So again (as I'm not allowed to edit the previous message already):
> 
> 0.7 ppm Fe in 2:1 ratio = approx. 0.5 ppm + 0.2 ppm
> 1) 0.5 ppm Fe-EDTA in Plantex CSM+B (6.52%)
> ...



Fantastic. This is what I wanted to know.
Thanks


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## Marcel G (16 Jun 2015)

Just in case you would like to be able to calculate other variables in the equation:

Formulas:
=========
1) stock solution volume (mL) = compound-amount (g) * nutrient-percentage-in-compound (%) * dosage-volume [mL] / target-ppm / tank-volume (L) * 1000
2) grams (g) = stock-solution-volume (mL) / ( nutrient-percentage-in-compound [%] * dosage-volume [mL] / target-ppm / tank-volume [L] * 1000 )
3) dosage volume (mL) = stock-solution-volume (mL) / ( compound-amount [g] * nutrient-percentage-in-compound [%] / target-ppm / tank-volume [L] * 1000 )

Examples:
--------
1) How much of distilled water do I need to use for 119 grams of a trace elements mix with 6.5% of Fe if I want to achieve 0.5 ppm Fe in 310L tank by adding 10 mL of the solution?
Solution: stock solution volume (mL) = 119g * 0,065% * 10mL / 0,5ppm / 310L * 1000 = 499mL

2) How many grams of the trace element mix with 6.5% of Fe do I need to add to 500 mL of distilled water, so that by adding 10 mL of solution into my 310L tank I increase the Fe concentration by 0.5 ppm?
Solution: compound amount (g)  = 500mL / (0,065% * 10mL / 0,5ppm / 310L * 1000) = 500/4,194 = 119g

3) What amount of stock solution (in which I dissolved 119 grams of trace elements mix with 6.5% of Fe) do I need to add into 310L tank to increase Fe concentration by 0.5 ppm?
Solution: dosage volume (mL)  = 500mL / (119g * 0,065% / 0,5ppm / 310L * 1000) = 500/49,90 = 10mL


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## Zak Rafik (17 Jun 2015)

Hi Ardjuna
Thank you so much. I'm sure your points will come in very handy, not only for me but for fellow members also. 
Cheers.


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## Zak Rafik (23 Jun 2015)

Just a quick update,
I used the on-line calculator at http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/ for 0.5ppm from CSM+B and 0.2ppm for Fe 10%. It's very easy to use and quick.
Cheers.


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