# It was going so well.... Cherry Shrimp die off



## tomsouthall (8 Feb 2021)

Hi all,

First post, so be kind!! I recently got back into aquariums with the aim of creating mainly a planted tank, with some shrimp and maybe a few tetra (haven't got these yet). I set the tank up in early November, fishless cycled with Dr Tim's Ammonia, all went well. This is low tech, I add liquid Co2 and Neutro T from Aquarium Essentials everyday. The tank is ~140L with Tropica aquasoil. I introduced 12 Amano Shrimp in early January and these are absolutely thriving, tripling in size constantly molting, none lost - great. They were bought from a fish shop. 2 weeks later (now 3 weeks ago) I added 11 Cherry Shrimp, these were purchased slightly against my better judgement from Ebay (due to lockdown), from a seller with lots of good feedback. To be fair they all arrived alive, I drip acclimatised them and they seemed to do well at first, however over the last weeks 6 or 7 of these have now died... I just cannot work out why! They came with a baby Cherry Shrimp which was microscopic at first, but is still there doing well adding to the confusion! They haven't grown in the first 3 weeks and I haven't seen them moult either... Amano's remain happy, crowded around a shrimp wafer as I type.

All water parameters (ph ~7, no ammonia or nitrate) seem perfect (nitrates slightly high at 40-80ppm but dont think this is an issue), I have been keeping up with water changes about 30% per week. The tank was at 26 deg but I have just turned this down a bit in case it was too high. I think my flow is good.

Only other things I can think of are, I added a Plant 2.0 light at about the same time as the Cherry's, this has caused a bit of algae build up on the rocks and some of the plants, so I have turned this down too. I have also noticed some plants start 'pearling' in the last week and also the appearance of Freshwater Limpets and small white worms - not sure if these arrived with the Cherry's or not (no proof).

I was hoping someone might be able to suggest some reasons for this die off as I am at a loss! Ideally I want to add a few more and a couple of fish but don't want to do this if there is an underlying problem....

Any suggestions would be gratefully received.

Regards

Tom.


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## Nick potts (8 Feb 2021)

Welcome.

I feel your pain, i went through the same and lost 2 groups (around 30 shrimp) , I never really worked out the problem but now thankfully my shrimp are thriving and breeding.

First, what are your water parameters? Cherry shrimp like higher values of KH and GH than other shrimp and the can have issues moulting if they are low, you want around 4-5KHG and 6-8GH, aquasoil will strip KH from the water.

The algae won't hurt, in fact it will be a benefit to the shrimp as they will graze on the algae and the biofilm that grows on it. Do you have any botanicals in the tank, things like capata leaves, alder cones?


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## Barbara Turner (8 Feb 2021)

First thing I would always guess at with a new tank is Nitrite level, but 3 months in I would have expected you to have got through this bump.. 
It doesn't sound like your overcrowded and followed a fishless cycle. The advantage of buying from a local fish shop is that the water conditions should be similar. 

A couple of obvious ones, Are you adding prime or leaving something the water to stand when doing water changes?
Is the water at the right temperature, I've killed them off in the past with cold water sinking to the bottom of the tank.. 

Do you have very soft water, I've heard this can cause problems with moults.

A couple of months in I normally to try ad do two water changes a week, mainly as this seems to help keep algae down while the plants are growing in.


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## dw1305 (8 Feb 2021)

Hi all, 


Barbara Turner said:


> Do you have very soft water,





Nick potts said:


> Cherry shrimp like higher values of KH and GH than other shrimp and the can have issues moulting if they are low, you want around 4-5KHG and 6-8GH, aquasoil will strip KH from the water.


Because the OP lives in S. Oxfordshire I would expect that their water is pretty hard and the Aquasoil won't be able to soften it enough to cause problems.


Nick potts said:


> The algae won't hurt, in fact it will be a benefit to the shrimp as they will graze on the algae and the biofilm that grows on it. Do you have any botanicals in the tank, things like capata leaves, alder cones?


<"Alder cones are good">, they will tint your water a little bit. 

cheers Darrel


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## tomsouthall (8 Feb 2021)

Hi all, thank you for the thoughtful replies!

I treat tap water with Prime and leave it for 1-2 hours with a spare heater in before adding, so don't think this is an issue..

As mentioned the water here is pretty hard, I only have the strip tests for GH and kH (have the API proper tests for ph, amm, nitrite and nitrate), currently showing 6 for KH and 8-16 for gH.. I think OK??

I have been supplementary feeding twice a week with AquaCare Tropical Tabs and put in a blanched spinach leaf once. Therefore don't believe I have any botanicals in the tank... are these recommended?

It is frustrating as there doesn't seem to be anything obvious!

Thanks again,

Tom.


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## dw1305 (8 Feb 2021)

Hi all,


tomsouthall said:


> Therefore don't believe I have any botanicals in the tank... are these recommended?


Really good for shrimps, some people use Indian Almond Leaves (_Terminalia catappa_), but I use pyo. Oak (_Quercus spp._), <"Beech (_Fagus sylvatica_), Hornbeam (_Carpinus betulus_) etc">.  Have a look at <"All the leaves are brown">.


tomsouthall said:


> put in a blanched spinach leaf once


They are best with <"a veg. based diet">, you can use any blanched vegetables and a lot of people collect Nettle (_Urtica dioica_) leaves in the spring and then dry them to feed through the year.


Karmicnull said:


> That was a few days ago - at the moment they are thoroughly enjoying some sweet potato, and the - it turns out around 30 or so - babies in the main tank downstairs are all feasting on nettle. I feel I have justified the huge bag in the freezer and the last four months of flak! I also have a tentative plan to use the quantity of shrimp on the marrow in the main tank as an overfeeding index. If there are none, I'm almost certainly overfeeding. If I can't see the cube for jostling red bodies, my fish have probably already expired from starvation.


cheers Darrel


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## tomsouthall (9 Feb 2021)

3 more dead this morning... only 1 left now. All Amano still looking fine. Still none the wiser!

It has been quite a rapid die off - all in 7-10 days. Should I just leave the tank for a while before adding anything else?

Tom.


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## aquascape1987 (9 Feb 2021)

Are you fertilising for the plants?


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## tomsouthall (9 Feb 2021)

Yes I'm adding Neutro T from Aqua Essentials (about 6ml to 120l) and 2.5ml liquid CO2 each morning.... could this be having an impact? It seems to always be at night they die?

Tom.


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## aquascape1987 (9 Feb 2021)

Well I’m not an expert to be honest, but I think it’s got to be something that is added to the water that’s upsetting them if your nitrogen cycle parameters are all good.
I  only asked about ferts because I had an instance where all my Amano shrimp kept dying a few years ago, and I put it down to the micro mix I was using. They visibly seemed to react when i poured in the micro fertiliser every day. Acting weird and darting  around etc then sitting there dormant. The next day I would find them dead. Not sure what it was in the liquid that caused it though. I suspected copper but 🤷🏻‍♂️.

I also asked for help on here and everyone I spoke to thought it wouldn’t have been the fertiliser, or the liquid carbon I was using, as tons of people dose these to their tanks with no ill effects on their shrimp. But I could visibly see them react when I poured it in, and death would follow shortly after the strange reactions.

I would advise systematically stopping adding the additives one by one temporarily, and seeing if the deaths stop. The result of this may only be anecdotal, but it may hit the nail on the head as well.

Sorry I can’t be of more help. I know how frustrating things like this can be. 😩


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## tomsouthall (9 Feb 2021)

Thanks, that's really helpful. I have wondered to be honest as 6ml of fertiliser squirted in every day is quite a lot! Did you stop adding ferts then or just add less?
It will be hard to monitor as there's only 1 cherry left! Hopefully my Amano's stay healthy as I've grown quite attached to them!


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## aquascape1987 (9 Feb 2021)

Well you see for me, it was easy to identify what I strongly suspected was causing the problem, as I had a very visible and very strange reaction immediately,  in response to adding something to the tank (repeated day after day) I simply stopped adding that for a week and the deaths stopped.

Then changed fertiliser regimen  from EI, self mixed from salts to TNC complete and haven’t had any shrimp problems since.

I personally would start with stopping the liquid carbon, and then the fertiliser. You say your tank is low tech, and I presume low light with slow growing plants?  I would suggest that stopping the ferts for a few days isn’t going to send the tank spiralling into immediate destruction, if so.

A bit more difficult now though, as  you only have one of the affected shrimp left 🤔


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## Kevin Eades (9 Feb 2021)

You mentioned some white worms. There was a thread on here the other day about worms which kill shrimp. Planaria worms? Couldn't be those? I don't know the symptoms but it's what my brain put together but might be because I read the post recently.


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## tomsouthall (9 Feb 2021)

Could be Kevin - I need to get a microscope to try and identify them as they are so small, definitely not as big as examples on Google images. There are quite a few either stuck on the glass or wriggling in the water column though, I'm sure I read somewhere that Planaria don't tend to wriggle like that in the column..so they are probably 'detritus worms'?


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## Simon Cole (10 Feb 2021)

My guess is actually an odd-ball:  (POPs  aka persistent organic pollutants) Organic compounds that are highly toxic, persist in the environment, bioaccumulate in human and animal tissue, and can be transported by wind and water. Most POPs are pesticides. Perhaps, your plants or the soil has one of these present. My best guess, having read similar stories, is the soil itself. I might even go so far as to suggest that the ammonia had a synergistic impact upon the presence of a POP, causing it to become sublethal to your cherry shrimp population.


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## Protopigeon (12 Feb 2021)

Is it an open topped tank? Could someone have been cleaning the room recently and sprayed some polish or something nearby?


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## Fred Dulley (13 Feb 2021)

If water quality is fine (ammonia, nitrite, copper etc) then it leaves chemical contamination (as suggested above with sprays etc), predation or disease. I'm not sure how disease could be identified or treated but I was surprised how many different types of disease shrimp can get after listening to some shrimp experts.


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## tomsouthall (16 Feb 2021)

Hi all, the tank is glass topped and is in my home office - no sprays or anything which could get into the water. I think disease might be the most likely reason, the fact that they all went 1 by one (literally 1 a day pretty much, no mass die off) seems to suggest this I think? Sadly the Amano's have started going 1 by 1 now too (although only 2 so far), again seemingly always at night! It can't be predation, unless they are killing each other! WQ still all good, sticking to ~30% water changes a week.

I decided to get some Otinculus at the weekend to see how they fare, I know this was risky as they can be temperamental at the best of times. So far all 6 seem to be doing well and have cleared lots of brown algae. Still about 10 amano shrimp, I will keep up with water changes and hope they hang in there. If not I will stick to fish for a while!

Tom.


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## Fred Dulley (16 Feb 2021)

tomsouthall said:


> Hi all, the tank is glass topped and is in my home office - no sprays or anything which could get into the water. I think disease might be the most likely reason, the fact that they all went 1 by one (literally 1 a day pretty much, no mass die off) seems to suggest this I think? Sadly the Amano's have started going 1 by 1 now too (although only 2 so far), again seemingly always at night! It can't be predation, unless they are killing each other! WQ still all good, sticking to ~30% water changes a week.
> 
> I decided to get some Otinculus at the weekend to see how they fare, I know this was risky as they can be temperamental at the best of times. So far all 6 seem to be doing well and have cleared lots of brown algae. Still about 10 amano shrimp, I will keep up with water changes and hope they hang in there. If not I will stick to fish for a while!
> 
> Tom.


Sorry to hear that. If they're still dieing I'd be doing water changes every few days just in case it is water quality.


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## tomsouthall (16 Feb 2021)

You get paranoid though don't you... maybe it's something in the tap water!!!

The only chemical I put in other than liquid co2 and Prime with water changes is Neutro T: Neutro T Plant Fertiliser - Medium [NTM] - £14.99 : Tropical Aquarium / Fish Tank Plants for Sale, CO2 Sets, Fertilisers, and more - Aqua Essentials, The Planted Aquarium Specialists

This says it is safe for shrimp and the reviews are good - I've been putting it in since Day 1. To be fair I don't really know what is in it as there are no 'ingredients' listed on the bottle. Having searched the forum quickly it doesn't seem like too many other people use it, would I be better off switching to something else?


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## Fred Dulley (16 Feb 2021)

Very rarely is it anything in the tap water unless its from a bore hole or something.
That product provides trace elements (micro nutrients) to the plants. As long as its not overdosed itll be fine. It contains nutrients such as iron, manganese, zinc, boron, copper (very small amounts so dont worry). I wouldnt switch as theyre basically all the same product.


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## tomsouthall (16 Feb 2021)

Thanks Fred, I'm really pleased with how the tank looks so will stick with it. I will try and step up the water changes - I've got a few big amano who have probably quadrupled in size in the 6 or 7 weeks I've had them - would genuinely be a bit upset if they went too!

Tom.


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## jaypeecee (16 Feb 2021)

tomsouthall said:


> You get paranoid though don't you... maybe it's something in the tap water!!!


Hi @tomsouthall 

That's not an unreasonable thought to have. Is it copper in the tap water, I wonder. But, then, I think - why should the die-off only occur at night? Please take a look at your water company's detailed water report and check the measured copper concentrations. Not all species of shrimp are equally susceptible to copper toxicity. You may find it interesting/useful to take a look at:









						How Copper Affects Dwarf Shrimp - Shrimp and Snail Breeder
					

Exposure to high copper disrupts respiration, inhibits reproduction, reduces fertilization success, decreases fecundity of the shrimp.




					aquariumbreeder.com
				




I am mentioning copper just so that it is something to consider, not that it is necessarily the culprit in this case. BTW, there is a better test kit for testing copper than the API but we may not need to go down that route. What's more, _Prime_ should deal with heavy metals of which copper is just one example (but probably the most important).

JPC


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## tomsouthall (16 Feb 2021)

Thanks JPC - will read. Here are the copper stats from my Thames Water report, I notice the report is quite old... not sure how often they update these. Clearly there is a bit of copper in the water, but it seems well below the regulatory limit?

Tom.


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## jaypeecee (16 Feb 2021)

Hi @tomsouthall

Those tap water copper figures look good. But, I've just spotted something in the _Aquarium Breeder_ article that needs clarification - never noticed it before. I will contact the author of the article (Michael) about this. BTW, have you now measured KH and GH? If so, what were the figures? The API test kit is OK for these.

JPC


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## tomsouthall (16 Feb 2021)

At the moment, I only have the Tetra strips for kH and gH.... they are a little hard to read but show 6 d for kH and 8 d for gH. The water here is pretty hard (water report says 290 mg/l). Not sure how exactly how this relates to the 'd' measurement Tetra use... I assume the Tropica AquaSoil has softened the water.

Maybe I should invest in the API test.

Tom.


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## Andy Pierce (16 Feb 2021)

I don't know that the cherry shrimp would be more sensitive to anything than the amanos would... maybe you just got a bad batch of shrimp from a dodgy ebay supplier?  Before you tear your hair out messing with tank parameters you could try a fresh batch of cherry shrimp from a different supplier.  I used to use Neutro T and the related liquid carbon from AE, but switched to EI and EasyCarbo.  I'm quite convinced the AE liquid carbon (maybe liquid carbon in general?) loses potency with time in the bottle since an old bottle of AE LC failed to spot-treat algae on hardscape while a fresh bottle of EasyCarbo worked great.


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## jaypeecee (16 Feb 2021)

tomsouthall said:


> The water here is pretty hard (water report says 290 mg/l). Not sure how exactly how this relates to the 'd' measurement Tetra use...


Hi @tomsouthall 

1dH is approximately 18 ppm. To make things easier for you, try this:






						Hardness convertor
					

Omrekenen van verschillende notaties voor hardheid.




					www.lenntech.com
				




BTW, German Degrees is the one normally used in aquatics.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (16 Feb 2021)

tomsouthall said:


> Maybe I should invest in the API test.


Yes, it's well worth the minimal outlay. Both KH and GH are important water parameters, not just for the reason we're discussing here. I use the API KH/GH Test Kit and I also have the Tetra strips but you'll get more reliable results from liquid tests than you will from strips.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (16 Feb 2021)

Andy Pierce said:


> ...messing with tank parameters...


Is that the official term? 

JPC


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## jaypeecee (16 Feb 2021)

Andy Pierce said:


> I don't know that the cherry shrimp would be more sensitive to anything than the amanos would...


Hi @Andy Pierce 

It is well-known that different species of shrimp have differing sensitivities to copper, for example. Take a look at the information to which I linked in post #23.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (16 Feb 2021)

tomsouthall said:


> Clearly there is a bit of copper in the water, but it seems well below the regulatory limit?


Hi @tomsouthall 

I should have possibly mentioned this earlier but the regulatory limits are aimed at we humans, not creatures that swim around in fish tanks.

JPC


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## PARAGUAY (17 Feb 2021)

Everything seems covered here Source of your plants? If from UKAP sponsers they will be ok


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## tomsouthall (17 Feb 2021)

Yes, all from Aqua Essentials... another dead amano today (just one, at night again). Might just give up on shrimp!

Tom.


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## PARAGUAY (17 Feb 2021)

Think you can rule out plants then as AE only use l think European suppliers


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## PARAGUAY (17 Feb 2021)

Gabor Horvath has a article on shrimps in PFK February issue which has loads of information, alot of what is said on here covered but well worth aread if you can get a copy


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## tomsouthall (17 Feb 2021)

The kH test arrived and is measuring 7d, or 125.3ppm. Is this too high for shrimp? This link suggests that the ideal is 2-5.... Beginners guide to aquarium carbonate hardness (KH)

Could 7d be causing my problems?

Tom.


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## Andy Pierce (17 Feb 2021)

You don't have e.g. kids that might be "helping out" by adding stuff into the tank on your behalf?


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## jaypeecee (17 Feb 2021)

tomsouthall said:


> The kH test arrived and is measuring 7d, or 125.3ppm.


Hi @tomsouthall 

And what is GH measuring? KH is a measure of how well the water can keep pH stable. GH is primarily a measure of how much calcium and magnesium is in the water. As you will no doubt be aware, calcium is important for shrimp.

Here is a website that provides suggested KH and GH for shrimp:






						Red Cherry shrimp (Neocaridina davidi) | Care & info
					

Learn how to care for red cherry shrimp (Neocaridina davidi), the beginner-proof, easy dwarf shrimp for your freshwater aquarium.




					www.theshrimpfarm.com
				









						Amano Shrimp Care Sheet
					

Amano shrimp or commonly called Algae Eating Shrimp is a must have for your aquarium. Find out basic care requirements, diet, sexing, breeding and much more




					www.theshrimpfarm.com
				




JPC


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## jaypeecee (17 Feb 2021)

tomsouthall said:


> I have also noticed...and also the appearance of Freshwater Limpets and small white worms - not sure if these arrived with the Cherry's or not (no proof).


Hi @tomsouthall 

Looking back over your thread, I spotted the above. Could you please describe what the above critters look like or provide a photo? Please also take a look at:









						How to Identify and Kill Planaria Worm The Easy Way
					

Planaria flatworm is a nasty parasite that wrecks havoc in a shrimp tank. You want I gone fast. here, I am going to show you how to get rid of planaria!




					fishlab.com
				




As you say above, perhaps what you are seeing arrived with the Cherry Shrimp?

JPC


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## jaypeecee (17 Feb 2021)

tomsouthall said:


> ...another dead amano today (just one, at night again).


Hi @tomsouthall

I think we may be homing in on the culprit! The clue is "at night again". Take a look at the following and what do you see? NOTE: Scroll down the page to "Lifestyle & Habitat".






						Planaria - structural features and vital functions of a freshwater parasite, methods of dealing with it
					

White or milk planaria is a primitive invertebrate creature belonging to the class of ciliary worms. It is found in freshwater bodies of water or aquariums, where it can be seen with the naked eye. White Planaria is a free-living organism that, unlike most flatworms, in its natural habitat poses...




					fin-radom.com
				




"The lifestyle of the white planaria is mainly nocturnal; during the day, creatures hide among the leaves of aquatic plants".

JPC


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## tomsouthall (18 Feb 2021)

Hi JPC,

Thank you for the links and the research! This does seem rather compelling!! The worms are most definitely still there, I had thought they might not be planaria because lots of them are free swimming 'wrigglers' which I read meant they were something else. They are also really small, but all the things you have pointed to too seem to add up!

They are too small to determine the pointed head by eye, but I remembered I have an old SLR camera and macro lens which is just charging up. Will post a photo if I can get one!

Thanks again

Tom.


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## tomsouthall (18 Feb 2021)

I introduced some Ottos at the weekend which I read should eat Planaria. Next up will be a school of tetras which will hopefully take care of the rest. Interesting, I decided to get shrimp first to control algae and as I read they can be skittish when introduced to fish, but actually maybe this was a mistake as there was nothing to control an micro inverts.

Tom.


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## jaypeecee (18 Feb 2021)

tomsouthall said:


> Will post a photo if I can get one!


Hi @tomsouthall 

If you can't get a photo (and even if you can), it would definitely be worth checking your suspected planaria with a magnifying glass at night when they emerge. Hopefully, they'll crawl on the tank glass panels.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (18 Feb 2021)

tomsouthall said:


> I introduced some Ottos at the weekend which I read should eat Planaria.


Hi @tomsouthall 

That seems very unlikely to me. Otocinclus normally live on an herbivorous diet - algae, in this case. @zozo has a related thread on this topic:






						Fish eating Planaria
					

This is actualy a topic of which not much is writen about.. Seems like those darn wurms are not realy on anybodies menu.. But i kinda experience different..  Now i got 3 tanks and 2 with lifestock, both i feed regularly life or froozen foods.. One tank only tetras, oto's and cory's, they...



					www.ukaps.org
				




To date, I've been fortunate not to have to contend with Planaria. So, this is a useful exercise for me.

JPC


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## Fred Dulley (18 Feb 2021)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @tomsouthall
> 
> That seems very unlikely to me. Otocinclus normally live on an herbivorous diet - algae, in this case. @zozo has a related thread on this topic:
> 
> ...


I've heard of ottos eating baby shirmp and also Dean from Aquarium coop has talked about a method of his where he gives ottos some baby brineshrimp to encourage them to breed.


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## jaypeecee (19 Feb 2021)

Hi @tomsouthall 

I'd be interested to know how things are (hopefully) progressing.

JPC


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## tomsouthall (21 Feb 2021)

All going OK I think - no new shrimp casualties. I still have most the Amano (~10) and the Otocinclus are doing great, completely stripped the tank of brown algae so now supplementing with Repashy SuperGreen. Putting the macro lens on the tank was eye opening! Lots of random worms and other things. Still not sure about the planaria from these pics.... I've never seen any large ones, or any going for the little extra food I put in the tank. The tank is also super clean, no rotting material or anything like that which apparently shouldn't suit them.. will see how it goes. Would rather not start added meds. I'm intrigued by the Galaxy Rasbora (CPD), sounds like these might be good for invert control as I have nothing other than Otos and Amano's at the moment.


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## Hufsa (21 Feb 2021)

First pic looks like a rhabdocoela to me, third one should be a non parasitic nematode of some kind.

Happy to hear you havent spotted any planaria


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