# Is this hobby losing the plot?



## Chris Jackson

This could be contentious but I am really curious. Since joining this forum last year I have noticed a huge focus towards flow, distribution and high levels of CO2 and EI ferts. I'm not saying any of this is wrong but it also doesn't seem to have made things any easier for beginners

Beginners regularly post new threads following this advice with their whirlpools of CO2 micro bubbles with green drop checkers, plenty of ferts. yet still with plants melting and algae issues... When did it become so difficult? My first planted tanks had T8 lights, bubble ladder reactors and the plants grew like crazy without any of these dramas. I might have given up otherwise.

This is my tank form April 2003, it's 1200 x 60 x 60. Lighting is 4 x T5 Tubes (staggered through a 10 hour photo period). Substrate is Dennerle Deponit Mix with gravel overlay and a heater cable. CO2 operated by a PH controller set at 6.6 with 3dkh water with injection at 2BPS directly in to the filter inlet of one canister filter. 

The simple open pipe outlet of the single Eheim 2226 filter is at the back right corner so that the water circulates gently round the whole tank a bit like stirring a bucket but there was little visible movement of the plants in the flow except at the back near the outlet. Now I'm not saying this is anywhere near Amano quality but by the same token I don't think many would complain about a tank with growth as lush as this. Fertilisation was mostly pinches of KNO3 as and when it seemed appropriate, with some Tropica liquid from time to time also when it seemed necessary. All a bit seat of the pants really but no atomiser, ugly co2 mist, no mega flow and few algae issues. Full lighting on for 5 hours in the afternoon.


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## dw1305

Hi all,





Chris Jackson said:


> Now I'm not saying this is anywhere near Amano quality but by the same token I don't think many would complain about a tank with growth as lush as this.


Perfect tank. I think that is probably a result of "_good things come to those who wait_".

Personally I think that is what a lot of people want from their planted tanks. I think some of the difficulties come when people want instant results from Iwagumi lay-outs etc, where there is a relatively low plant biomass. 

How did you get on with your _Aphyocharax nattereri? _

cheers Darrel


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## Patrick Buff.

I completely agree with you Chris. It's somethings looking that we are making it far to difficult and technical to follow instead enjoying the progressing and learning curve of keeping aquariums.

Patrick


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## Chris Jackson

dw1305 said:


> How did you get on with your _Aphyocharax nattereri? _



(Dawn Tetra) Aggressive little guys as I recall.. had some other tanks mates running for cover.


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## Edvet

This hobby lost a lot of it with the invention of the new lights. I am from the Netherlands (origin of the  Dutch style). There used to be a lot of nice tanks with just 2-4 rows of T8 lights. preferably a few months old so with some light loss already. We used plants wich did well/great under these circumstances, a bit of ferts (often in the bottom only), some fish/fishfood, maybe some bio CO2. Slow growing tanks with lots of plantmass. WE learned from the old experienced fishkeepers.
Then T5 and a bit later LED came into the hobby. People replaced their T8's with T5's HO and started melting their plants. The new small aquascape tanks with the beautifull scapes became popular, people wanted a beautifull tank in 6 weeks and in order to get there fast wanted  fast growth so used a lot of light, and hence needed CO2 in large amounts in order to protect their plants. In stead of learning to drive in a small car they wanted to step in a formula3 car and drive away immediately. No learning, it just needs to be perfect, and quick please.........


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## Sk3lly

I completely agree with all this. When i entered the hobby a couple of years ago i wanted to run before i could walk. It did not take me long to get the most powerful light i could lay my hands on. After a year of this approach i have now scaled back to a lower energy tank. I still use EI and co2 but i limit the light to slow my growth rates. My tank has never been as healthy 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Chris Jackson

Yes it's the lights... 

When you read of Tropica's advanced plants needing high light I think its more that actually they need reasonable light but definitely also CO2. For instance I had Pogostemon Stellata growing so vigorously in a 60cm deep tank under T5's that I got fed up with it and composted it. 

The scapes that made Amano famous were lit by T8's after all and complete with carpets of Glosso and Riccia


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## greenmac75

I thought I needed  high light and went for 4xt5, now at the moment I use 1 and put 2nd tube on for 2 hours in the middle of my photo period .


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## Wizard

I'm new and this would be my 1st planted tank ....but the information here is invaluable , I started out thinking , tank water gravel and fish .....now I'm using co2, getting the flow just right and looking into fertilizers, i have learned a lot and I'm sure iv only just touched the tip of the iceberg,


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## Chris Jackson

Wizard said:


> I'm new and this would be my 1st planted tank ....but the information here is invaluable , I started out thinking , tank water gravel and fish .....now I'm using co2, getting the flow just right and looking into fertilizers, i have learned a lot and I'm sure iv only just touched the tip of the iceberg,



Exciting... beware the light salesmen, and plant densely from the start!


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## Patrick Buff.

I don't think it's only the light and the questions about it. In the past it was the same with T8 and T5. But nowadays it's more concentrated about what we are using and how instead of what we are growing or keeping.

Patrick


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## scootamum

I recently started a new set up, using CO2 for the first time.  I chose to go down this route because I wanted to move out of my comfort zone, and try to grow some more demanding plants.  For years I was scared by the idea of using CO2 in case I got it wrong and ended up killing my livestock. In my very first set up I was even scared of dosing ferts in case I poisoned my fish.  

Before I purchased the kit that I've got now, I went to several shops to price up CO2 kits.  Fortunately I'd done my research before hand, so when one shop tried to sell me a super duper, high end CO2 kit, costing £500 I knew to thank them politely and walk out of the shop.

It's very easy to get sucked into believing the hype, and think that your results will be better if you spend lots of money on hardware.  I could quite easily have fallen into this trap if it wasn't for the fact that I'd had good results from just planting up my aquariums using low demand plants, and dosing ferts & liquid carbon.  Even then the liquid carbon is dosed on an as and when I remember basis.  Do my aquariums have algae in them?  A little, but I find that weekly maintenance is enough to keep it under control.

I'm fully aware that nothing happens quickly in this hobby.  It takes time and patience, and a lot of hard work to get good results.


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## parotet

Sk3lly said:


> When i entered the hobby a couple of years ago i wanted to run before i could walk.


Unfortunately this is what I see around me and IMO why the hobby is kicking off like a rocket in Spain but won't last too long. All the marketing is based on temporary super tanks with loads of lights and lots of maintenance that are only algae free in expert hands (exactly the same that happens with fashion supermodels in TV and young girls and boys... wrong model to follow!). But learning is long and most people think it is boring.  In my local forum we are a handful of hobbyist that keep planted tanks, the rest os slowly moving to Malawi and Tanganyika setups. Frustration is IMO behind this and frustration happens when you don't want to follow the learning curve and advice is crappy. This forum saved me from abandoning years ago and now I won't quit the hobby... but local advice is for crying, both in shops and forums. Very difficult to find the good answers to your problem, very high chance to fail.

When I was young I had a 60 liters tank in my bedroom where I had every critter I could find on the irrigation channels around home. Fish tanks were very boring to me and this is why I left the hobby for some years. Now when people come home and see my planted tanks, pond, WK, etc, and ask me why I have this "strange hobby" I just reply that it is a good excuse to learn about plants, fish, chemistry, physics, light, etc. But my guess is that it also has a therapeutic role... I feel very happy when my worries at the end of the day are more related with how to solve a particular problem in my tank rather than with my job!

Jordi


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## Chris Jackson

parotet said:


> I feel very happy when my worries at the end of the day are more related with how to solve a particular problem in my tank rather than with my job!



Oh yes! My daily trim is like a form of meditation....


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## Marcel G

Chris Jackson said:


> Since joining this forum last year I have noticed a huge focus towards flow, distribution and high levels of CO2 and EI ferts. I'm not saying any of this is wrong but it also doesn't seem to have made things any easier for beginners.


I do not like where this hobby is heading. But in my opinion it's just natural and in a way inevitable. Most people succumb to fashion. High light is fashion, EI is fashion, flow mania is but fashion. Go here 5 years later, and I'm sure there will be different fashion demands. It can be really liberating if you are able to rise above all this. The main problem I see causing all this is our human nature, and our tendency to seek simple explanations of our questions. As was said already, many people want it nice and fast (yesterday was already late). And rather they spend huge amounts of money for some better hardware than to learn something. It's much easier to invest money than to invest time into gathering some valuable knowledge and experiences. How many hobbyists do you know who are doing any experiments with growing aquarium plants under different levels of nutrients, light intensity, flow, etc? And how many hobbyists do you know who seek to solve their problems by seeking instant answers on different forums, by investing their money into better hardware, or by endless speculative discussions on different topics? Tom Barr says that 95% of our problems relate to wrong CO2 management. I would say that 95% or our problems relate to our unwillingness to think, watch and learn ... and stay objective. Even if you get to know something, it's easy to be focused and fascinated just by "your own truth" and ignore other facts. This tendency of ours is called "confirmation bias". Tom Barr advocates his own findings (EI and CO2), Christian Rubilar advocates his own findings (MCI), Takashi Amano advocates his own findings (ADA system), everyone else is advocating his own findings (?) ... and we all think that what we have found out is much better (or closer to the ultimate truth) that what others have found. So we ourselves (our bad tendencies) are the biggest enemies of our hobby.


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## Alexander Belchenko

What Jordi said reminds me something I have frustration with when I wanted to have nice planted tank, and have it quickly.
There are a lot of beautiful pictures of amazing tanks all over the internet, contest entries, sometimes they tell what fertilization regime they're used, what light, filter, etc. But! Nobody tell you about daily maintenance. This is one major point where my frustration with aquascaping begins. Especially trimming moss. And then removing cuttings.
I think this hobby needs more examples of slow growing tanks, with less demand on maintenance. Some people think that even every week water changes is too much for them.
"Why is water [in your tank] is so crystal clear?" - they often asked.
Probably there is need to educate people about "no pain - no gain". And stop pretend that beautiful planted tank is very easy thing. Because for too many people it's not.
Making the layout, put the plants into tank - that only tip of iceberg. Of course, I often saw total absence of artistic skills, even when I sold ready-to-use composition (hardscape+plants) and people failed to simply reproduce what I planned for them. But at the end of the day, somebody has to do a maintenance. Every week. Week by week. To keep the tank healthy and pleasing to eye.


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## zozo

Difficult is a very relative understanding.  It's more like we make it look to easy.

And it's also very easy to come by in our society, the whole commercial aspect is aimed for, make it look easy. If you want to keep plants and fish, you make a list, run into an aquarium shop and in majority nobody asks you a question. It doesn't work that way, you ask, and they put the record on you want to hear.



Chris Jackson said:


> Oh yes! My daily trim is like a form of meditation....



There you strike the most sensitive point. 

With this approach, difficulty isn't a question.. if the interest and the heart is in the right place it ain't an effort nor obligation it makes the hobby worthwhile, the love for it makes it easier to understand. This is a routine based gathering of knowledge which first starts and comes from the heart and in time passes to the mind. It's effortless learning on automatic pilot, happens to all of us with things we realy want.

I see it happen ammong my personal friends as well. And it's a rather extreme example. He wants an aquarium, he has an aquarium. But mainaining it, is an obligation for him. It's an effort in the back of his aganda in his bussy life. He shows me proudly his aquarium and i tell him, "hey you got fish in there which do not realy go together and your tank is to small for them". Then he acts a little offended, he doesn't believe me because the expert in the aquarium shop told him otherwhise. He rather expects a compliment, like "Nice Job". When we come to the cleaning part, he says, Yes i know i have to do that more, but i got little time. When i send him reads about issues we've discussed, there is no time to read them. Other things in life are more important.

He's one of my best friends and i hope we stay like that for the rest of our lives. But when it comes to keeping an aquarium i sincerely doubt his motivations and interest. Only thing i can do is accept he thinks differntly.. I do not know where his real interest lay when it comes to keeping fish and plants. If other things in live are more important, why the hell do you want an aquarium? I guess he's just one of those people who have seen it some where and have it just because they can and there's not much more to it. He just doens't have the same love for it as i have. For me it's peanuts and obvious it's my TV replacement a relaxation. For him it's difficult, an effort and an obligation he's strugling to understand and to keep up with. Sometimes you have to make choises in live and be honnest to yourself.

You can't have it all even if the world tells you otherwhise.


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## flygja

I'm trying to figure this out myself. Previously I could grow relatively nice looking aquascapes with some algae but not crazy amounts. Recently I can't even grow ferns or glosso or simple stems. Equipment has remained largely the same. I still live in the same house so same water supply. Not really sure what's wrong with me. It's quite disheartening to read all the advice on forums and say "I've done that" but without the proper results.

The only thing I have not done is anal-retentive attention to detail. Don't have time for that anymore unfortunately, but I still do weekly water changes.

Now my Eheim Pro 3 2080 has finally packed in and is leaking from inside the head. Known issue a few years ago but local dealer doesn't know anything and won't replace/repair it for me. Really feels like its close to the final nail in the coffin for me in this hobby!


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## Wizard

For me it started out with friends and family getting fish , the bug spread to the point where I thought "stuff it il show them how its done " lol but instead of taking the same route all my friends and family have taken iv decided to build an aquascape with fish in it .....I'm a tinkerer always have been and this hobby is a great way to release , for the moment I have literally built my setup from the ground up , as iv said before this forum is a world of knowledge and experience you just can't find , yeah you do get those that will just read , go and buy all the expensive unnecessary stuff and then wonder why it didn't work, but for people like myself I like the challenge to build it and learn as I go , its just being able to read something then to apply it to what you need and your own setup


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## Jose

I will say what I think. I think that problems come not only with high light but also with CO2 (related to what others have said about fast results). I think there should be something explaining people that if they use co2 at the beginning its not going to be nice. There are soooo many problems that arise with co2 and so much more work which I think newbies dont know about so they take the plunge out of ignorance really and then start looking for shortcuts. A high tech tank is hard work whether made byT Amano or By T Barr or by Oliver Knott or Viktor LLantos. The only reason why I enjoy the work going into a high tech is because I like science, biology, engineering, chemistry etc etc but many people hate those fields which is fine. But my point is that if you learn to enjoy the ride instead of getting focussed on the results then it suddenly becomes more enjoyable having an algae farm in your living room. If newbies knew what they were getting into theyd probably just keep a low tech tank which is a 100 times easier and can look just as nice and actually does at any given time look much better than a high tech.


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## pepedopolous

I think the problems mentioned here have a lot to do with marketing by aquatics companies themselves. _Any_ product will claim improvements over previous/alternative products, ease of use, and effective results. It can't be true for all of them. Most hobbyists with some experience learn to be sceptical of these claims and go to other hobbyists on forums for advice. There we find loads of contradictory ideas and dogmas. 

I wish the aquatics companies would be more open and not leave it only to hobbyists to do research. Hobbyists typically just don't have the resources to do scientifically-valid experiments. Surely, if ADA, Eheim, Tropica to name just three, pooled a little money into joint long-term research projects, they could conduct tests to get some definitive data on the problems hobbyists struggle with. They would benefit from truly more effective products based on this research and happier, more successful hobbyists.

P


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## parotet

Jose said:


> But my point is that if you learn to enjoy the ride instead of getting focussed on the results then it suddenly becomes more enjoyable


Excellence in such a complex thing like a planted tank is difficult to reach, and this should be the first thing to be assumed. However, once it is understood it can be a good motivation for progressing and "enjoying the ride". 

And please don't necessarily read "Excellence" as "whatever trendy aquascaper layout". BigTom's tanks (for example) are a good example of layouts that will never win a fashion contest but that are also an example of "Excellence" and that entail lots of learning even if they may look simple.

Jordi


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## Alexander Belchenko

yeah, this is process, not the final result you have to achieve.


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## Edvet

pepedopolous said:


> I wish the aquatics companies would be more open and not leave it only to hobbyists to do research


If only food companies(for humans) would tell the truth on their packaging..................


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## Edvet

parotet said:


> will never win a fashion contest


but are tanks i would love to own. That is why i enjoy biotope aquaria far more then artificial landscapes and forests, floating islands etc etc


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## JAX3000

In stead of learning to drive in a small car they wanted to step in a formula3 car and drive away immediately. No learning, it just needs to be perfect, and quick please.........[/QUOTE]

That's me... I'm embarrassed to say, I feel like I'm skidding around the corner in my Formula3 narrowly missing a tree and occationally clipping the curb!

All the gear and no idea, but willing to learn and actually not looking for instant results, just unsure how to go from 0-60 without killing everything.

I am injecting co2 from a fire extingisher via an atomiser into the outlet of my eheim pro3. I have set the whole tank up like a whirlpool with the help of a power head and I'm EI dosing. To be honest, the tank looked better before I added all this poxy stuff! I have 3 TMC Ultima Colourplus tiles running off a control unit, which combined cost me over £600 in the sales! But I guess there's no harm in that, as they're controllable and should last a long time...!

However I have suffered from all kinds of problems and I'm not at all happy with the way the tank looks.

On the plus side, my wife (says she) thinks it looks great, the fish all seem happy, healthy and continue to spawn and best of all I'm still enjoying myself. I have lots to learn and time to wait, but I am enjoying the journey in spite of the fact that I look at the tank and only see the flaws. like somebody on here said, if I can go home after a long day at work and worry about a fish tank, I'm not living the most stressful life... 

I must remember that this is a hobby for the pleasure, not just the result and that it's not going to look like the pros and you clever guys have achieved with years of experience. I'm 3 or 4 months in and I've learned SO much. As far am I'm concerned, if the fish are happy and I'm having fun, to hell with it. It's impossible for me to bored. I am constantly distracted by this and I like that.

Thanks for making me feel like I'm not the only idiot out there...!


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## Alexander Belchenko

Edvet said:


> ...That is why i enjoy biotope aquaria far more then artificial landscapes and forests, floating islands etc etc



When I was on seminar of Heiko Bleher (who is one of biotopes expert) here in Ukraine in 2013 he said something like:
"Amano is my friend, but he did it wrong way."


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## Chris Jackson

Manufacturers have to sell product to survive and prosper, shops have to do the same. The ideal customer will adopt their system and purchase their fertilisers, substrates and maybe plants as well which are clearly high margin products. So selling someone a complete high end set up with CO2 and potent lighting etc, is very attractive. Then further selling them, skimmers, alternative CO2 diffusers /atomisers and reactors test kits etc. to help them with their new found problems is also lucrative, in the short term at least. 

There's little short term incentive to say well actually you're best starting with a simpler and cheaper lower light "mid-tech" setup until you've become familiar with maintenance demands and balancing the tank. Oh and buy the way you can save yourself a bunch by mixing your own fertilisers...

Maybe an ADA retailer wouldn't actually sell a newbie a 60P with an Aquasky 602 but anyone can order that or similar online and face the consequences...

Maybe there should be an introductory article on the home page of this forum for beginners explaining some of this before they go shopping...


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## Jose

Chris Jackson said:


> Maybe there should be an introductory article on the home page of this forum for beginners explaining some of this before they go shopping...


Yeap this is what I dont understand. It doesnt take so much to do a nice detailed small booklet as an intro for beginners. They can even sell it.


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## Edvet

Alexander Belchenko said:


> Amano is my friend, but he did it wrong way


Just like when you look at the Lisboa tank, it looks good but it feels off to me. And the followers have gone to the extremes. While Amano wants to recreate the atmosphere of nature, the folowers recreate trees.


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## Alexander Belchenko

Edvet said:


> Just like when you look at the Lisboa tank, it looks good but it feels off to me. And the followers have gone to the extremes. While Amano wants to recreate the atmosphere of nature, the folowers recreate trees.



I like the pictures of Lisboa tank. I think it has great education intent. But on the other hand I understand how big a maintenance efforts there, just to keep it beautiful.
This is extreme I talked about earlier. Many of people (me including) do like such nice and colorful pictures of the tank, and even enjoy them in real life, but in reality it's hard, and I do understand that true biotopes is better but not always as attractive as such Hi-Fi tanks. Dilema!


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## Jose

Alexander Belchenko said:


> I like the pictures of Lisboa tank. I think it has great education intent. But on the other hand I understand how big a maintenance efforts there, just to keep it beautiful.
> This is extreme I talked about earlier. Many of people (me including) do like such nice and colorful pictures of the tank, and even enjoy them in real life, but in reality it's hard, and I do understand that true biotopes is better but not always as attractive as such Hi-Fi tanks. Dilema!



Yeap its like comparing POP to Classical music.


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## Edvet

Alexander Belchenko said:


> true biotopes is better but not always as attractive


Not as much better, depends on what you aim for, but in my mind always better for the fish, and thus more atractive.
I look on the internet weekly , almost daily, to find data about natural environments i could use to make a copy of a slice of nature to give fish the most natural and nice looking tank i can make.


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## roadmaster

I believe a  member on another forum said it best.
"Everybody want's to turn everything up to eleven" .


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## flygja

No manufacturer will release all its info to the hobbyists. Most of them have good intent and do help out hobbyists, but they can't reveal their company secrets to the world. No commercial company survives on good will and good faith. Someone in Asia will clone it and that will affect their bottom lines.

I think the hobby is still in plot. It's just become a bit more complex these days with the advent of technology and products. There's never a one solution fits all, unless you go with a vertically integrated solution like ADA. Back then you rode a horse. Now you drive cars. In the future cars will drive you. But getting from A to B has not lost the plot. Its whether you wanna ride, drive yourself or be driven


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## pepedopolous

flygja said:


> No manufacturer will release all its info to the hobbyists


With the freshwater hobby, I don't think that the companies really have any secrets to give away. Their 'research' is not much better than hobbyist amateur efforts. That's why I would like to see a pool of money from various companies aimed at specific planted aquarium research.

Take the case of Tropica. I think they must have plenty of company secrets when it comes to successfully cultivating plants for sale and which plants are suitable for the market. They can keep that. However, the advice they give to hobbyists regarding CO2 and light seems either outdated or contradicting the EI dogma. This is where we need more research. 

An example: Tropica say that _Staurogyne_ _repens_ is a 'medium' difficulty plant and therefore needs '6-14 mg/l' of CO2. Really? In that case I ought to turn down my CO2 right now and save on gas! I wouldn't dare, my _Staurogyne_ is struggling at the moment with low light and (measured with my amateurish hobbyist means), 30+ mg/l CO2.

P


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## parotet

flygja said:


> No manufacturer will release all its info to the hobbyists. Most of them have good intent and do help out hobbyists, but they can't reveal their company secrets to the world.


I'm not sure about this... take for example the ADA fert line. It is fairly easy to find in the internet what's the content of this cool bottles. Does it mean that people will not buy them anymore? I may be wrong but my guess is that ADA is selling more and more fertilizers. I think there are two reasons for this: on the one hand, some people are not really interested in making their DIY version. And on the other hand, ADA (as it happens with BMW, Mercedes or other luxury car brands) is selling not only products, but a "way of life", a status. ADA SuperJet filters are extremely expensive for the flow delivered. Does it matter? Not at all, tthey look gorgeous under transparent cabinets or cabinets without doors... 

Think about it, more brands are following this path (i.e Elos, Aquavas). IMO there are few secrets in the hobby. The day after a new product is released I'm sure it is analyzed in detail by the other companies or hobbyists, and in most cases there is no need to do so... a new stainless 300 lph filter for 1,000€? a new co2 cristal bell diffuser for 400€? a new light that grows better plans? Come on guys, this is smoke and nothing more. But the classic brands (Sera, JBL,  Eheim, etc.) are not that cool.



flygja said:


> No commercial company survives on good will and good faith. Someone in Asia will clone it and that will affect their bottom lines.


That's different, being the first is important. ADA has sold millions of AquaSoil bags and thousands of AquaSky units before the EU and knock off Chinese versions came to the market. I'm sure Twinstar is earning a lot of money right now, at least until cheap version will be manufactured. I'm pretty sure companies know this and are focused on new (but not necessarily useful) gadgets. 

Jordi


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## Jose

I agree totally with Pepedopolous. It wont make them no harm to put out some info on how to grow plants, I can only see it benefiting them as the hobby becomes more popular.



pepedopolous said:


> An example: Tropica say that _Staurogyne_ _repens_ is a 'medium' difficulty plant and therefore needs '6-14 mg/l' of CO2. Really? In that case I ought to turn down my CO2 right now and save on gas! I wouldn't dare, my _Staurogyne_ is struggling at the moment with low light and (measured with my amateurish hobbyist means), 30+ mg/l CO2.



I think there is a lot to be said about co2 and tropica. I honestly think there is a difference between how co2 is injected (dissolved vs bubbles). How can Amano grow perfect HC/or any other carpet plant with bad diffusers and some bubbles in the tank yet others struggle with 30 ppm CO2? Have you guys seen Viktor Lantos's tanks? I think the answer is in the bubbles. I think here lies the main crossroads for the different methods and why people keep coming up in forums saying they have good co2 with almost gassed fish but are still getting melting and algae. Well its not the only reason because there are also people using diffusers and having problems but I think its the main one.


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## parotet

pepedopolous said:


> However, the advice they give to hobbyists regarding CO2 and light seems either outdated or contradicting the EI dogma.


IMO Tropica website includes one of the most consistent information on the internet. Honestly I think these guys know very well their job...



pepedopolous said:


> An example: Tropica say that _Staurogyne_ _repens_ is a 'medium' difficulty plant and therefore needs '6-14 mg/l' of CO2. Really? In that case I ought to turn down my CO2 right now and save on gas! I wouldn't dare, my _Staurogyne_ is struggling at the moment with low light and (measured with my amateurish hobbyist means), 30+ mg/l CO2.


Remember that what is happening in your tank may be affected by dozens of parameters you are not taking into account, and this does not make advice from others wrong

Jordi


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## Edvet

I don't think there is a non high- tech- lab way to measure CO2 with any degree of certainty.


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## Jose

parotet said:


> Remember that what is happening in your tank may be affected by dozens of parameters you are not taking into account, and this does not make advice from others wrong



This types of affirmations is what keeps us in the dark. Thinking that companies know their things and that they know more than anyone else, and thinking that the planted tank has got millions of parameters that make a difference. Well I just dont see it that way. IMO it can be reduced down to light, ferts, and CO2/flow and maybe plant biomass, water hardness, water changes, temperature and not many more. bUT People think its very complicated stuff so I'm not going to convince anyone I know, nor do I want to.


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## parotet

Jose said:


> This types of affirmations is what keeps us in the dark.


I just try to be honest. I'm just saying that saying "it does not work in my tank" is not enough



Jose said:


> and thinking that the planted tank has got millions of parameters that make a difference





Jose said:


> IMO it can be reduced down to light, ferts, and CO2/flow and maybe plant biomass, water hardness, water changes and not many more.


That's what I think too, but  it is quite complex dealing with 10 important parameters. If I'm not wrong, statistically a combination of ten parameters in groups of 2 (testing these 10 parameters but in each case keeping all the same except the two to be compared) would deliver 45 different situations. We need to simplify things but remembering that a certain degree of complexity occurs.



Jose said:


> Thinking that companies know their things and that they know more than anyone else


Tropica staff is has been growing Staurogyne probably during the last 20 years... I would say they know what they do.

Jordi


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## Jose

parotet said:


> That's what I think too, but it is quite complex dealing with 10 important parameters. If I'm not wrong, statistically a combination of ten parameters in groups of 2 (testing these 10 parameters but in each case keeping all the same except the two to be compared) would deliver 45 different situations. We need to simplify things but remembering that a certain degree of complexity occurs.



But you dont need to get an exact number for each of them, there is quite a wide range for most of them. Im not saying its not hard for a beginner, yes it is, but also its not magic like many would like it to be.


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## pepedopolous

parotet said:


> Remember that what is happening in your tank may be affected by dozens of parameters you are not taking into account, and this does not make advice from others wrong



I'm sorry Jordi, and I expected this kind of response, but this is just like saying 'the Lord works in mysterious ways' - completely unsatisfactory. It's just someone's subjective experience versus another's.

There is an answer out there and it needs real research. 



parotet said:


> Tropica staff is has been growing Staurogyne probably during the last 20 years... I would say they know what they do.



If there is a certain factor which despite adequate CO2, leads plants like _Staurogyne_ to be unhealthy in low light aquariums, would Tropica etc. be so kind as to share that with us? It seems quite uncharitable to leave loyal customers in the dark like that.

Without this info is it any wonder we end up with extreme approaches like 'turning everything up to eleven' or 'nutrients=algae'.

P


----------



## Jose

parotet said:


> . I would say they know what they do.


I would say they know how to grow it well, and thats it.


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## Alexander Belchenko

I'm sorry? Are we talking about the same staurogyne?
http://tropica.com/en/plants/plantdetails/Staurogynerepens(049G)/4481
it's not even in medium category - it's in easy one.
I don't agree with it either, not easy plant at all. 

What I miss a lot on many many websites about plants: not only origin and light/co2 demands, but also more parameters about water chemistry like hardness (KH preferably). Is it from black water or not? Etc.


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## dw1305

Hi all,





pepedopolous said:


> I'm sorry Jordi, and I expected this kind of response, but this is just like saying 'the Lord works in mysterious ways' - completely unsatisfactory. It's just someone's subjective experience versus another's.


 It would be really good to quantify things, but you really would need a lot of time and money.  





parotet said:


> If I'm not wrong, statistically a combination of ten parameters in groups of 2 (testing these 10 parameters but in each case keeping all the same except the two to be compared) would deliver 45 different situations.


That is the real problem, and you would actually need more replication than that with a traditional statistical approach. 

Assuming that the variables are <"parametric"> you would need a minimum of  6 replicates of each different treatment, and if there are 10 variables of which you would need at least 4 different levels. If you assume that all the parameters are independent (and you would have to start from this assumption) you would use <"one way analysis of variance"> with a <"fully factorial design">. This gives you 10 x 4 = 40 different combinations, replicated 6 times, giving you a grand total of 240 combinations. 

Even if you said it was 3 key variables and 3 levels you would still have 3 x 3 x 6 = 54 combinations.  

If you could accurately measure the parameters in the tank, which would be particularly problematic with dissolved gases, you could build  a model using a GLM (<"generalised linear model">) or a <"multivariate approach">, using something like <"multidimensional scaling">.

The great advantage of this is is that you could take data from a wide variety of differing tanks, such as hobbiest tanks, but it would be reliant on accurate measurement of parameters, some of which (fish health etc.) will be subjective. 

If we had a lot of data of the quality <"Marcel G" has been collecting>, then we could get a lot nearer to the "answer".

cheers Darrel


----------



## Sk3lly

Surely theres a difference growing these plants for sale and actually having them grow in our tanks?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dw1305

Hi all,





Sk3lly said:


> Surely theres a difference growing these plants for sale and actually having them grow in our tanks?


 I think there is, and that is also a really important issue.

Nurseries grow plants emersed because that is a successful business model, and supplies the retailer with an attractive plant which doesn't have algae etc.

Access to aerial levels of CO2 allows you to have a longer photo-period and use higher nutrient levels. Plants can be produced more cheaply, and sold more cheaply. 

I don't see that model changing, because relatively few people are going to pay a premium for a smaller plant, potentially with some algae, that has been grown submersed, even if it might be more successful in the long term. Have a look at <"low tech plants"> for comment from "Mick.Dk".

cheers Darrel


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## pepedopolous

I'm not denying the complexity of the task, nor blaming any one company in particular (I use Tropica plants and soil). However, the situation is generally frustrating and as I get more experienced I just try to be more patient and adjust my expectations. If anyone could/should do research, it's the companies within the hobby.

I can't help but wonder if (money and space for a RO unit notwithstanding), I would have more chance of long-term success in the marine/reefkeeping side of the hobby? This is because coral husbandry is being researched due to conservation issues and the many large public marine aquariums around the world, often supported by universities etc. (I know of course about ADA's massive Lisbon aquarium but this is a temporary exhibit that is closed for days at a time for maintenance). So although there are plenty of alternative methods for keeping reef aquariums, and pedlars of snake oil, successful reef aquariums are known to last years and years and the means to achieve success seem to me to be less mysterious and more reliable for average hobbyists.

P


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## Chris Jackson

dw1305 said:


> Nurseries grow plants emersed because that is a successful business model, and supplies the retailer with an attractive plant which doesn't have algae etc.
> 
> Access to aerial levels of CO2 allows you to have a longer photo-period and use higher nutrient levels. Plants can be produced more cheaply, and sold more cheaply.



Tropica used to say that emmersed grown plants where stronger because of being grown that way made them better able to adapt to life submersed in the varying conditions of peoples aquariums than those grown submersed already. Seems to make sense.

Clearly there are many routes to success but as far as companies are concerned ADA lead the way by some distance in my opinion. However they are very clever with their image making, the ADA Gallery is only open one day a week when everything can be at it's best and they only publish photos that show the tanks at there very best as well. How many companies can confidently plant and establish a 2m deep 40m tank in 3-4 months with apparently no dramas?

How many people here have planted up a 60p using the full ADA ferts, substrate, equipment and *only* ADA advice? Any...probably not, you'd need deep pockets, but if you did would all run smoothly? It would be nice to think so....

I'm too long in the hobby for that and have to tinker and experiment.....

But for someone who just wants a nice planted tank in their living room, forget, bright lights, EI and fizzy whirlpools....


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## Alexander Belchenko

IIUC reef tank requires almost full control over all parameters. Today AFAIK led light experiments is where all troubles begin.

Probably if you will use in planted tank only remineralized RO water to some "ideal" parameters (I think that's KH=2, GH=6-8) and provide some average CO2 and average light - most of your plants will grow just fine.


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## Alexander Belchenko

Chris Jackson said:


> How many people here have planted up a 60p using the full ADA ferts, substrate, equipment and *only* ADA advice? Any...probably not, you'd need deep pockets, but if you did would all run smoothly? It would be nice to think so....
> 
> I'm too long in the hobby for that and have to tinker and experiment.....



Here in my country I know only few of really good aquascapers who run full ADA system and properly follow their giudes and advices, and who report it success. For others this is tooooooo expensive.


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## viktorlantos

I think the problem is still the reading. There are dozens of wonderful guides and information. But many beginners do not like reading. They are asking questions and try to find answers in journals or different topics. Tropica has wonderful guides like how much algae eater you need. ADA has many planting caring tips and general operation. Are you interested in nature habitat to learn more? Kasselmann plant bible has that. All puzzles on the desk just need to read it. 

But i see beginners helps other beginners as older members getting tired of the repetitive questions. It is not a hard thing to do. And if you leave behind costs, pricing, marketing you will see that Tropica, ADA and others are helping a lot and the goal is common. Have more successful long-term hobbyist. The more problem you have the less you read in the past from the useful sources.

No need contest tank everywhere, but you can do healthy tank on many levels. Of course there are important things and none of the tanks will run in autopilot mode. You need to take care of it.

Maybe a quick starter summarized points for all beginner in a topic with resource link would be enough. Like to all newcomers, plant growers. Having this highlighted. 

But i do not believe in that, all beginners need to dig into test kits, zillion scenarios, or the lumen craziness. We just confuse them with all of this. If he stays in the hobby a little longer he will learn much more easier all about it. Just have some success as a starter.


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## viktorlantos

Back to Tropica. 2 years ago (or a little earlier?) Tropica changed the way of promoting aquatic plants. Strange how time is moving and information lost quickly.
But this campaign built by some of the best and most experienced UKAPS members. These guys spent weeks to build up something which is easy to understand for all.
Tropica even made a step by step guide.

http://tropica.com/en/guide/make-your-aquarium-a-success/

Check the rest of the menus on the left. Easy not needed too much reading. They build it for an avg aquarist. But you can have success keeping all of this in mind.


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## viktorlantos

On Staurogyne and some other plants. The general guide Tropica has is right.
But there are plants which easier to melt in new condition than others.

Maybe this is something what would be nice to have highlighted in a catalog since we know many of them.
But if not then your retailer need to inform you which are the typical problems.

I usually try to avoid selling plants which is 50-50% success rate to stay alive to any beginner. And tells to my clients to go with an easier one.
They seen a perfect Utricularia carpet? Nice, keep that in mind coz 99% that you will not have it  Do it when you're ready to play a little and accept failures.

Crypts, Blyxa, Staurogyne melting? Well they look bad after that but hey most of them grows out quickly from the roots again. And that plant will work better with your water condition then.
Just give it a little time. Maybe you will not have a beauty Staurogyne bushy part in 2 weeks but after 4 months you will hate it how it's overgrown and need to take care all the time 

Patience. That is the key. I only have a few plants in my head which i do not like to work with. All others works immediately or after a little time.

We do have 20 display tanks. And i frequently sees that if i move over a wonderful microsorum trident bunch to another tank which also running with the same RO water, same temp, but the micros will have algae on it after a week.
Stress, just a little conditional change. Coz in the other tank has a decoration element which raise the hardness a bit. Light, CO2, ferts everything else is the same. And still it will be a harder 1 months to get over on this thing.
Same with Riccardia moss and many others. This is normal. 

If we accept that these are living things and need time to work with the new environment we will see more success stories.


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## viktorlantos

I also like what Tom Barr does with his tank. Beautiful gardening! Just in the real garden he move plants quickly if that plant do not feel ok in a spec position
Maybe this is not a step1 beginner class, but something what remind us that a tank can have multiple locations with different conditions. light etc. And some plant may will appreciate better the more open areas than others.
A lot to learn just from those posts.

Ah so many things on the plate.  But you also need to try some of it.
I do not remember how much failures i had in the past and still has some nowadays. That's normal.
And i still say that algae is our best friend. A very good indicator that you're getting lazy, you forget about something, a CO2 may ran out or leaking etc etc.
Helps me every day bugfixing who messed up what in our tanks


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## pepedopolous

I think things are surely getting easier for absolute beginners because there are far more shops (both LFS and online) and forums like UKAPS with really good advice from helpful members 

The truth is that even with experience and practice, this hobby simply isn't easy. I think perhaps this is where beginners could be given a more realistic picture.

It's more experienced members too, who express frustration and these are people who don't need a beginners guide from Tropica. Maybe with new knowledge the learning curve actually gets steeper?

There are some people who feel they had comparable or even more success when they were starting out, through sheer luck, even though they had less knowledge, experience, and cupboards full of aquarium gear!

For example, reading UKAPS you quickly learn about the effectiveness of doing a CO2 profile, ensuring a 1 unit ph drop before lights on. Just about any problem is solved by 'more CO2!'. However, now I find myself constantly being stressed out about the possible miscalibration of my pH meter, possible leaks in my CO2 setup, and even though I have more than a 1 unit pH drop, my _Staurogyne_ isn't lush. 

In my case, I think the answer has been to have 2 aquariums so if I get frustrated by one, I focus on the other one with fresh enthusiasm. It's kinda like gambling addiction! 

However, I expect that other people might drift to their other hobbies or even leave the aquarium hobby altogether. Now that can't be good for business, can it?

P


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## viktorlantos

pepedopolous said:


> However, now I find myself constantly being stressed out about the possible miscalibration of my pH meter, possible leaks in my CO2 setup, and even though I have more than a 1 unit pH drop, my _Staurogyne_ isn't lush.



I do not want to go offtopic here, but i rarely use pH computers. Sometimes this is helpful, but since active soils, soft water, spec bio mediums etc you will face with more problems than success.
I do use a profilux machine on some of our tanks, On fresh start i surely sees that pH probe is hard to work with. And you will dose less CO2 with it than it is needed many times, coz pH is already too low.

Later on after 2-3 months when the pH dropping is less by the soil you will have more success with a pH computer.

Just look at this chart from my Profilux machine on my last scape. Especially the first part of the pH chart.

Measurement data after 4 months by Viktor Lantos, on Flickr

So i would go the manual way in the first 2 months and then put it on a pH computer.


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## JAX3000

Can anybody recommend a good book to help us newbies with the basics please?

I know there's allot of conflicting info out there, so my big worry would be reading a book and forming a basic starting point from which to learn, only to later find that half of it was inaccurate or outdated...


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## Edvet

JAX3000 said:


> a good book



Funnily there is a lot to learn in the tutorial section here.


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## pepedopolous

viktorlantos said:


> Later on after 2-3 months when the pH dropping is less by the soil you will have more success with a pH computer.


Thanks, Viktor. Though I'm just using a pH meter to measure pH not control it. it's just a 'pen' with a digital display that you dip in the water. Wouldn't re-using old soil prevent the initial low pH?

P


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## Alexander Belchenko

I personally tried Tropica guide and their 90 days app. Just out of interest, back in 2013 when I was thinking I was not beginner anymore, just to check what route their app can lead an aquarist. Overall I think it's very good, because it tried to lead beginner by safest path possible, but it's not ideal though. At some point I had diatom algae, but guide don't mention it, and only recommended to add 1/2 does of micro nutrientrs. With advice from local forum I started to add macro earlier than tropica app suggested and that helps. Should have I followed their guide absolutely no exceptions, or should have I learned that diatoms can be cured by adding macro? I'm still in doubts.
Also Tropica app/guide is not very clear about adding macro, after 2 months it just said: add macro. Not very clear, probably due the fact I'm not native English speaker.


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## zozo

An aquarium is a living breathing symbiotic entity, its a little replica of what happens in mother nature.. It can't be seen as a box of numbers or as a puzzle you have to try to complete.There are so many factors playing a role that it's impossible to write a bible that contains it all. Every book is nothing but a rough guid line to help you to get a little closer to understanding the big picture. Yes just a little  because in this picture are still many many things we don't know. Maybe we never will know, but there is one thing you never should forget. Nature has no perfect constant number, it is a constanly changing and fluctuating cocktail thriving on PPM's and CEC's, milions of bacteria, hormones and many other things you dont even see and still many things nobody knows about. A little bit of this can have a major impact on that and it might even not be measurable for us.

That's the point why we are with so many different spieces on this planet, invironmental differences and fluctuations create other life forms with othe properties and addaptibilities. The system is so complex that we can talk for hours and write another milion words, it will never be the complete package containing it all, because there are still lots of things we don't have a clue about.

I started aquarium in 1973, did practice the hobby till about 1988, after that i tossed the hobby because i had seen enough of it. I kept my interest without practice and since there is more in life i focussed on other things, like gardening and ponds. I did read many books, articles, magazines whatever and even all of them piled tohether do not contain the whole picture. I don't give a flying figure about numbers i do it all by what they tell me.. And if one among the others tells me i don't like it in here i don't want to be here, i'm not going to try to push something down it's throath. I try to move it or just swap it with something  that wants to be there among the others. If it's healthy it all is equaly as beautifull in their own way, choises in abbundancy.

Jesus Christ i'm much to philosophical for topics like this.. But this short quote says so many more than all books and numbers piled together.. 


Edvet said:


> Not as much better, depends on what you aim for, but in my mind always better for the fish, and thus more atractive.



It's what you aim for..

And to quote and other dear UKAPS member from another topic "Patience is a virtue". 

And that's where the plot thickens.. 

Since 1973 untill today nothing much has changes in this plot.. People were and still are educated and raised whit the collective and commercial thought.. "What do i want?". "I want that fish!" - "I want that plant!"

No matter what you want, an aquarium is and stays a living breathing symbiotic entity, its a replica of what happens in mother nature. It's not about what "you" want.  It's about what they want/it wants, the plants the fish, the symbiotic entity. There are 2 kinds of aquarists, the kind who insinctively think or learned to think "What do they want?" and build and work an aquarium in that pespective for them. And the other kind thinks instinctively "What do I want?" And build an aquarium for themselfs.

The keepers who build it for them and make choises of plants and fish in that perpective have the least problems and the most beautiful, atractive and natural harmonious aquariums and solve problems with just minor changes.

The keepers who build it for themselfs with only what do i want in perspective are the ones who oftenly run in to problems which are hard to tackle, because the starting point already failed harmoniously. Because it just isn't about you and what you want.

Now 25 years later i come back to the hobby and i see there developed a 3th kind of aquarist, the aquascaper. the most talented ones are a spinoff from the keepers who know what they/it wants. And play in that perspective with the what I want perspective and start a beauty contest. I'm not going to give examples, because i don't want to point a finger, offend or judge people. but there are aquascapes which are by the looks naturaly totaly off and far from what you would find in nature but still are judged in the contests top rating. And thats a dangerous mix for the common spectator. Those keepers make it so beatifull and looking so easy that they unwillingly helping to educate young interested newbies in the wrong direction and turning the collective thought "That's what i want!" up a notch. The pictures says without words "It's all about you, you can do and have all that you want.. They? Never mind they can addapt!?

Sorry Cinderella! it doesn't start there, it's not about you and not about what you want. It's about wath they want.. That's the philosophy. Aquarium keeping or working with nature in general isn't an excact sience from a book it actualy is more a philosophy. It's a way of thinking and feeling beyond yourself and what you want. When you come to the point where you get a grip of what they want, then you may start to think what do i want and what you can do whit that?

Are you a newbe? toss Fibernazie, toss the golden rule, toss the less is more idea. Toss the looks. Don't let a beauty contest push your buttons (yet). Read books between the lines many things are possible, they are a guide not a rule,, Start with a jungle style aquarium.. Grab a tank, toss in is much plants as you can, take a moderate firt regime and moderate lights, see what they do and how they grow, get to know them. If they don't grow move them to an other spot and watch again.. Or take 'm out and swap. Make your fish happy, make a playground with loads of hidding places, see and feel the harmony.. grow into it, the rest comes naturaly over time.. Don't stare yourself a blind eye on the happy few who have it naturaly or are just lucky in replicating.

It's not about you!! 


Cheers..


----------



## flygja

parotet said:


> I'm not sure about this... take for example the ADA fert line. It is fairly easy to find in the internet what's the content of this cool bottles. Does it mean that people will not buy them anymore? I may be wrong but my guess is that ADA is selling more and more fertilizers. I think there are two reasons for this: on the one hand, some people are not really interested in making their DIY version. And on the other hand, ADA (as it happens with BMW, Mercedes or other luxury car brands) is selling not only products, but a "way of life", a status. ADA SuperJet filters are extremely expensive for the flow delivered. Does it matter? Not at all, tthey look gorgeous under transparent cabinets or cabinets without doors...
> 
> Think about it, more brands are following this path (i.e Elos, Aquavas). IMO there are few secrets in the hobby. The day after a new product is released I'm sure it is analyzed in detail by the other companies or hobbyists, and in most cases there is no need to do so... a new stainless 300 lph filter for 1,000€? a new co2 cristal bell diffuser for 400€? a new light that grows better plans? Come on guys, this is smoke and nothing more. But the classic brands (Sera, JBL,  Eheim, etc.) are not that cool.



The ADA fert line content, as far as I know, was only done by Tom Barr which he sent off for chemical analysis. ADA themselves didn't publish the contents and concentration. Brighty K is just "Deep Sea Water with K" or something like that. Brighty Step 1 is Traces with no Macros. We all know what ferts are needed for a tank, but its the concentration that is important.

I fully agree about the lifestyle statement. I don't doubt that their stuff works. It's kinda like Starbucks in my country - Malaysia. They sell so-so coffee at a high price, yet their outlets are always full. So they're selling the lifestyle - its cool to be seen in Starbucks with a Starbucks cup and your tablet/smartphone/macbook. If I do strike the lottery, I'll buy into the entire ADA lifestyle, because I'm really curious as to how the whole system works and yes, its cool as heck 



parotet said:


> That's different, being the first is important. ADA has sold millions of AquaSoil bags and thousands of AquaSky units before the EU and knock off Chinese versions came to the market. I'm sure Twinstar is earning a lot of money right now, at least until cheap version will be manufactured. I'm pretty sure companies know this and are focused on new (but not necessarily useful) gadgets.



Being first is important, but companies don't plan for short term only. While they continue to innovate to find the next best thing, they need to continue to protect their current USPs. Even ADA wrote some articles about their soil vs other brands, their CO2 diffuser vs other brands. Think about it in the extreme, if ADA said "Oh, you wanna know where I dig for Aquasoil Amazonia? Over there" or "Oh just mix these 5 ingredients in these concentrations, you can make your own Bright Lights", how long would they survive for? Another example, I see that most of the active hobbyists on this forum are not buying ADA lily pipes anymore, preferring cheaper alternatives like Cal Aqua, Gush, etc. I think ADA would be worried about that. 

I do appreciate what the companies have done for the hobby and I don't expect them to reveal all their secrets to hobbyists either.


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## flygja

pepedopolous said:


> With the freshwater hobby, I don't think that the companies really have any secrets to give away. Their 'research' is not much better than hobbyist amateur efforts. That's why I would like to see a pool of money from various companies aimed at specific planted aquarium research.
> 
> Take the case of Tropica. I think they must have plenty of company secrets when it comes to successfully cultivating plants for sale and which plants are suitable for the market. They can keep that. However, the advice they give to hobbyists regarding CO2 and light seems either outdated or contradicting the EI dogma. This is where we need more research.
> 
> An example: Tropica say that _Staurogyne_ _repens_ is a 'medium' difficulty plant and therefore needs '6-14 mg/l' of CO2. Really? In that case I ought to turn down my CO2 right now and save on gas! I wouldn't dare, my _Staurogyne_ is struggling at the moment with low light and (measured with my amateurish hobbyist means), 30+ mg/l CO2.
> 
> P


The way I think about it, there are always multiple ways to go about achieving the same results. A good example is "format wars". Beta vs VHS. Bluray vs HD-DVD. Both formats achieve the same result but using different methodology. EI vs PPS-Pro vs PMDD vs Tropica vs ADA vs Seachem are all different methods of fertilising. They all work to some extent, based on research and company direction. For Tropica, I find that their method of using 4x 54W T5HO a short distance on top of their 300L tanks is madness with only 30ppm of CO2, using their own line of ferts (which has less concentration than EI) and the built-in sump filter. But it somehow works!


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## flygja

JAX3000 said:


> Can anybody recommend a good book to help us newbies with the basics please?
> 
> I know there's allot of conflicting info out there, so my big worry would be reading a book and forming a basic starting point from which to learn, only to later find that half of it was inaccurate or outdated...


I think you hit the crux of the problem right there. And reading this entire thread would have alluded to this - There's no one good book because information gets outdated, new methods are created, different manufacturers have different methods/biases. The first level of information is always the same - good soil, practical amount of light, sufficient CO2, sufficient fertilisation, effective filtration. Second level is where it all goes into the blender. Previously one of the advices I gave out to newbies is to copy someone's tank that is within your means. Now I don't know if its applicable anymore.


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## JAX3000

I have read this entire thread and you're right, I didn't expect a simple solution. Nor would I want one really...

If it was easy it would be no fun and not nearly as satisfying when I got it at least partly "right". And the reality is, the day (if it ever comes and I'm sure it won't) that I look at my tank and say it's perfect and stable... I'll kind of run out of things to do, you know? So do I start another tank? Rip it down and re-model the existing one? Take up gardening and ponds..?  I rather keep hunting for the holy grail than find it in a way. How many of you can put your hand on your heart and say, if somebody had the solution to all your aquatic problems, that you even want to look. My point is, if the companies knew all along and they suddenly decided to tell us, or if they had no clue and suddenly decided to invest time effort and money, then publish their findings, they'd lose business, we'd lose the thrill of the hunt and the whole thing would become a bit boring... wouldn't it? (This doesn't contradict my question for a good book, as I wasnt looking for an instruction manual, just a basic overview of the fundamentals of aquatic plant keeping)

Anybody looking for a "painting by numbers" approach, I believe, will be disappointed, as discussed here I can't imagine a scenario where somebody can say "Do this that and the other and the result will be so and so" as some unknown variable will knock the whole thing out anyway.

I find one of the strongest learning tools - besides trial and error - is sitting in on conversations like this and absorbing all the differing opinions and beliefs so I can take little bits of knowledge away with me and use them to interpret the results of my own trial and error... If that makes sense.

So thank you all. I'll shut up again and keep reading...


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## dw1305

Hi all, 
Neither of them are really about aquascaping, but Diana Walstad's  <"Ecology of the Planted Aquarium"> is probably the best book on plants in the aquarium, and the same applies to the <"Skeptical Aquarist"> web-site as a source for general scientific information. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Michael W

I must admit that I've always envied those with awesome aquascapes and exotic looking stem plants in a spotless tank, something which I can't achieve. But when I ask myself how they achieved it I tend to get overwhelmed with the amount of work needed and what appears to be some costly equipment, substrate and the need to get the CO2 and flow correct etc. Whenever I get into these situations not knowing what I want to achieve and do (which is occurring outside of this hobby with my desire to be an Illustrator but needing to hone my skills), I tend to ask myself why have I chosen this path of growing plants or career choice and the same answer comes back. It's because I enjoy it. I enjoyed keeping fish and I looked into the planted aquarium in order to create a suitable habitat for the aquarium's inhabitants. I was not looking at the presentation of it nor was hoping to be alongside with the professional aquascapers. Being able to keep simple plants like Anubias and Crypts are actually enough for me, I don't bother much with the locations of the plants, as long as they are doing well is enough for me since I know they help to keep whatever is in my tank alive. 

What i'm trying to get across is that you need to know what you are wanting to achieve and choose the right plants for your needs. Obviously you need to read up on the basics and get a grasp of the relationships light, CO2 and nutrients etc have on the plants. But for you to enjoy this hobby, you need not go broke, for example you can have a good substrate for £3 or so buy purchasing and washing some Tesco Cat Litter or go out to your garden for some dirt. Don't dwell on the branded products and statistics which may otherwise confuse you (unless you genuinely want to know the higher level of science behind it), keep it simple, observe and discuss with others who are in the hobby and exchange information to better your understanding of things so you can have fun.  

Also, accept the failures you experience, everyone goes through them. The best way to minimize them is to again know what you want and your limits. Try out low tech setups to understand the needs of the plants through the less demanding ones, the great thing about low tech is that everything is happening so slow that it gives you time to change and learn before a plant fails. Once you have a better understanding/more time on your hands, you can try out high tech setups. One thing which puts beginners off the hobby is certainly through the comparisons of their tanks with the pro aquascapers. They want to get good fast and skip steps. If they tried low tech setups first and experience the success of growing the low demanding plants while building up their knowledge, I'm sure their view of the hobby would have changed.


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## Marcel G

JAX3000 said:


> Can anybody recommend a good book to help us newbies with the basics please?


In my opinion, one of the best aquarium books ever for installation and care of the freshwater aquarium is _*The Optimum Aquarium*_ by Kaspar Horst and Horst E. Kipper from 1986 (1st edition) or 1988 (2nd edition). It can be bought at Amazon or ebay. It's very informative, well written, and contains a great number of analyses as well.


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## dw1305

Hi all,





Marcel G said:


> _*The Optimum Aquarium*_ by Kaspar Horst and Horst E. Kipper


Thank-you, that is a new one for me, I've just ordered a pre-owned copy via Amazon.for £5.

cheers Darrel


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## zozo

That's a nice deal Darrel..  seems not to be available anymore in new condition. But used still offered regularly in original edition, which is in German.. For those who are interested and can.. . Can search for ISBN: 3925916083


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## Edvet

I have it, i liked it in the beginning, though it feels a tad biased on Dupla stuff........


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## zozo

Edvet said:


> I have it, i liked it in the beginning, though it feels a tad biased on Dupla stuff........



Yup thats what the review sais too..  Both authors are/were Dupla employees and promoting that stuff a lot in the book. But besides that it's indeed the first book reviewed in that article as number 1 to have .. The second book was from same author, titled "My First Aquarium". Dummy for beginners...


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## OllieNZ

I also own it, it was one of my first aquarium books. Unfortunately some of the ideas in regards to setup and running an aquarium are a tad dated but it's still well worth a read and their studies they carried out in the wild are gold dust


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## Tim Harrison

Chris Jackson said:


> This could be contentious but I am really curious. Since joining this forum last year I have noticed a huge focus towards flow, distribution and high levels of CO2 and EI ferts. I'm not saying any of this is wrong but it also doesn't seem to have made things any easier for beginners
> 
> Beginners regularly post new threads following this advice with their whirlpools of CO2 micro bubbles with green drop checkers, plenty of ferts. yet still with plants melting and algae issues... When did it become so difficult? My first planted tanks had T8 lights, bubble ladder reactors and the plants grew like crazy without any of these dramas. I might have given up otherwise.
> 
> This is my tank form April 2003, it's 1200 x 60 x 60. Lighting is 4 x T5 Tubes (staggered through a 10 hour photo period). Substrate is Dennerle Deponit Mix with gravel overlay and a heater cable. CO2 operated by a PH controller set at 6.6 with 3dkh water with injection at 2BPS directly in to the filter inlet of one canister filter.
> 
> The simple open pipe outlet of the single Eheim 2226 filter is at the back right corner so that the water circulates gently round the whole tank a bit like stirring a bucket but there was little visible movement of the plants in the flow except at the back near the outlet. Now I'm not saying this is anywhere near Amano quality but by the same token I don't think many would complain about a tank with growth as lush as this. Fertilisation was mostly pinches of KNO3 as and when it seemed appropriate, with some Tropica liquid from time to time also when it seemed necessary. All a bit seat of the pants really but no atomiser, ugly co2 mist, no mega flow and few algae issues. Full lighting on for 5 hours in the afternoon.


Nice tank...
I know what you mean...I thought the same thing when I re-entered the hobby in Nov 2011 after a 25 year,or so, hiatus.
Being new to forums as well, and not fully appreciating the appropriate etiquette, I even posted a slightly embarrassing rant entitled - The High-tech way or the Highway, which I hesitate to link here...but what the hell...it may prove amusing...Clive didn't like it very much... http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/the-high-tech-way-or-the-highway.18562/
And, not only but also, it was the precursor to my Tutorial The Soil Substrate or Dirted Tank - A How to Guide...

Needless to say I'd recommend the low-energy soil substrate way for newbies, because there is so much that can be achieved with relatively low risk - including to the bank balance.
It seems it's also increasingly becoming a sanctuary for battle weary high-energy refugees who've decided they need a change of pace...and therein lies the fundamental lesson that others have commented on...it takes time and patience - but the end results are worth it.


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## Andy D

I'm glad you posted that link Troi. Quite an enjoyable read.


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## zozo

Lol..


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## Chris Jackson

Troi said:


> Nice tank...
> I know what you mean...I thought the same thing when I re-entered the hobby in Nov 2011 after a 25 year,or so, hiatus.
> Being new to forums as well, and not fully appreciating the appropriate etiquette, I even posted a slightly embarrassing rant entitled - The High-tech way or the Highway, which I hesitate to link here...but what the hell...it may prove amusing...Clive didn't like it very much... http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/the-high-tech-way-or-the-highway.18562/
> And, not only but also, it was the precursor to my Tutorial The Soil Substrate or Dirted Tank - A How to Guide...
> 
> Needless to say I'd recommend the low-energy soil substrate way for newbies, because there is so much that can be achieved with relatively low risk - including to the bank balance.
> It seems it's also increasingly becoming a sanctuary for battle weary high-energy refugees who've decided they need a change of pace...and therein lies the fundamental lesson that others have commented on...it takes time and patience - but the end results are worth it.



Yes good link. I think my frustration is that there seems to have been a loss of the middle ground and everybody is getting obsessed with CO2 and flow levels when actually you can grow most things very well with moderate flow, light, and CO2 which would make life far easier for beginners as it did for me when I started out with CO2.
I upgraded the tank pictured a few years later to include 2 x 150w halides as well as the 4 T5's but soon tired of uber growth and the constant trimming. Last year I got well schooled in the full high light, high everything approach with an Aquasky 602 and 60h tank. I learnt loads and indeed revovered from my algae farm after much reading and tweaking but now I've settled back to something less intense and with a very high degree of control over my lighting. Maybe soil could be next...


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## Tim Harrison

Chris Jackson said:


> there seems to have been a loss of the middle ground and everybody is getting obsessed with CO2 and flow levels when actually you can grow most things very well with moderate flow, light, and CO2 which would make life far easier for beginners as it did for me when I started out with CO2.


I think George's slow burner is a good example of the middle ground http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/na-65cm-slow-burner.37285/


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## Chris Jackson

Ah perfect example... nice one George!


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## JAX3000

Thanks for the suggested books. I went for The Optimum Aquarium. I like how one for the reviews describe it as "...not a how to, but more of a how it works..." which is exactly what I need. Technology may have moved on since the early eighties, but the plants don't know that, so this seems a good place to start. (Out of print, so second hand, in very good condition on Amazon for less than a fiver posted.) And I'd have sure as hell  never heard of it, if it weren't for you guys...  

Re George Farmer's slow burner it's great to see this approach being taken by a seasoned pro, as this is what I have done. (Used a "high energy" set up with low maintenance slower growing plants.) If I can master a tank full of beginner plants, then I can move forward from there. For now I have more forgiving plants, I'll have more time to react and a less demanding maintenence regime. I'm going Echinodorus,  Cryptrocoryne and Anubias crazy. 

I'm sure I'm not the only one who is very glad to have this middle ground. A Formula 3 car, but driving slowly round an oval, rather than steeming into the Nurburgring!

I think it's too late to trade in for a Nissan Micra and besides, I don't want to. I'll just have get used to the controls... 

The reason I'm saying all this, is because it has all happened since and because of reading this thread. A wise man once said "Its not about you!"  and I hate to be all me me me, but I want you to know, you've helped a great deal in getting my head around this whole thing.

Thanks again...  


Sent from my SM-G850F using Tapatalk


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## Chris Jackson

I like that JAX3000 and am glad starting this thread has had its wider benefits!

Maybe the middle ground should be likened to cruising in a Bentley, plenty of power available if needed but delightful cruising the rest of the time..?


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## JAX3000

Precisly how I see it!

Sent from my SM-G850F using Tapatalk


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## Edvet

JAX3000 said:


> trade in for a Nissan


I prefer the low tech to be "drifting around  in a sloop" not fast ,but with a lot of comfort and a good glas of wine


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## Tim Harrison

Nice analogy, I'd subscribe to that...


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## Chris Jackson

Gaff cutter, good friends, and some single malt?


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## flygja

That might go the way of the whole hobby-losing-the-plot thing. Too much expection, too little ability (to hold your alcohol )


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## ShawnMac

This is a good and interesting conversation. Being one of the guys who entered into this hobby at the emergence of T5 lighting and one of the countless aquarists who stumbled upon the work of Amano and hence began the plunge into aquascaping, I can say it is hard to slow down an over enthusiastic beginner. Why oh why does every one of them want to grow HC!?  The combination of varying information and stunning photos of aquascapes lead to beginners to try and hit the ground at full sprint. The scapers who make it through this phase become wiser and learn to take a simpler and more reasonable approach. It has been this way for me....and even now occasionally I pursue stupid high amounts of light and loads of fast growing weeds which look nice at moments few and far between, simply due to the constant trimming and the occasional algae issues that come from walking the razor's edge.

Additionally, I think beginners and some more experienced scapers are pursuing that final photograph. They are not interested in how it looks in their living room or study. They don't care about the micro bubbles swirling or even care to add fish until the photo. I always wonder what some of the tanks with the nice photography and tricks with perspective and dimension look like in person when the effects do not work like they do for the front camera shot. This is a different type of scaper and by and large not representative of most.

Best management for me is lower than you'd think light, always add CO2, and stay as on top of ferts as much as possible. But with the reduced light and thusly a reduced energy system....you can get away with the eventual human neglect most of us non professionals will encounter over the life of a scape. Its more forgiving and its a wiser approach. But try telling the beginners this and they will blow you off....I still tried to grow that HC


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## flygja

Shawn... not sure what you mean, since your aquascaping portfolio on Flickr is gorgeous!


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## Bacms

This thread is a bit scary. I am new member, have been reading lots and thought I was doing everything right, after reading this it seems I should throw all the equipment out of the window


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## Edvet

Bacms said:


> should throw all the equipment out of the window


No, but take your time to learn it. Aquarium keeping is a game of patience


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## ShawnMac

flygja said:


> Shawn... not sure what you mean, since your aquascaping portfolio on Flickr is gorgeous!




That's because I have hidden away all the photos from the beginning of my aquascaping hobby  And I've learned to grow HC 

 I suppose that is one thing to realize as well....how often do we get to see the total bombs people make!? lol 

A little something I wrote for the ASW magazine (when it was still being put together) from my first, probably, year in the hobby. A Beginner's Perspective It was published a while after writing it. I was hoping to share the experience of a beginner with other beginners. 

More to the topic, I absolutely feel things are being over complicated in the hobby and that good simple common sense management is all it takes. I've never been one for testing, and yet, I hear about all these people testing every known paramenter of their water, calculating their fert dosing and estimated plant uptake. All is overly complicated and unnecessary to be successful. Not to mention, few really have a true handle on how to appropriately test samples (use reference solutions, calibration procedures, high quality reagents, etc). Same goes for CO2, with experience and less light than you think you need, CO2 can be managed simply by observation. I use a drop checker to get into the ball park(<Is this an American saying?) and adjust from there. Calculating ppm based upon pH, KH, and CO2 isn't really that important because the number is just that without observation and other relative considerations like plant mass, light level, etc., some of which cannot be measured....so observation and experience is more important than some formula.


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## Alexander Belchenko

Shawn, great article! It said there should be next part, can you give us the link?


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## ShawnMac

Alexander Belchenko said:


> Shawn, great article! It said there should be next part, can you give us the link?



Thank you! I don't think the next one ever got published as the magazine thing died out over at ASW. I wrote it, but the issue was never completed. I'll see if I can find the draft if you are interested. It was funny, the second article was literally going to come out after I'd been in the hobby for about 2 or 3 years and I had just become a moderator over at ASW.


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## JAX3000

I'm interested...  

Sent from my SM-G850F using Tapatalk


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## Chris Jackson

Great article Shawn indeed, oh and such beautiful scapes on Flikr..

What few beginners realise is just how much attention a fancy hi tech scape will require even after you've chased your tail for a few months getting your modern day CO2 and flow issues sorted and now have to deal with stem plants growing 25mm+ a day. It's a whole lot of trimming and re-planting etc. sooner or later something will have you backing off the maintenance and dealing with the ensuing jungle...

Nobody wants to be told  "that's not for you yet" mind so as has been said earlier...get reading first but with a critical eye/hear and listening most closely to those who have shown a proven record of growing successes rather than vociferous opinions.


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## flygja

Shawn, I hear what you're saying, though one thing I've learnt in this hobby is "common sense is not common". Some would say "look at your plants" and someone else would say "No, get a dropchecker" and another would say "Drop checkers suck, get a pH probe". And then you run into all sorts of problems with pH pens and low KH and CO2 mist and dissolved CO2 and flow and.... you get what I mean.

I've been into aquascaping for about 7 years now and I still can't grow HC consistently


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## ltsai

I been in this for about 5 years and I can only grow algae. ☺

Sent from my Mi 4i using Tapatalk


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## Jack Reilly

These days you can still make a simple low tech tank. There is a wealth of information and beginners can make anything they want.

How can more options, more info, more layers of optional complexity and more ranges of tank styles possibly be a bad thing ? If beginners are overwhelmed, rush or aim too high and fail, only they are to blame. If they love the hobby, they will persevere. If they quit, they were tourists just passing by. 

Me, I want to make a low tech, a high tech, a biotope, I want to try it all. And I feel so grateful that I have all the information at my fingertips to make those happen. There's so many helpful people ready to share information. 

Takashi Amano's style is my favourite, and I don't like a lot of the new popular aquascapes with the fake trees and fake ocean etc. I don't like when it becomes a model train set type deal. But I'm happy to have the style in the hobby as it just makes it that much more interesting. The hobby seems to be pushing new boundaries constantly and that makes it exciting. I was into this hobby five years before even making my first planted tank. Reading the journals and watching the competitions and learning about the planted tank ecosystem. It was fun enough I didn't even need a tank myself !


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## Aqua360

Some interesting posts here, I'm a relative newbie too; and fell into the trap of high light which of course, produced an algae farm. I've since scaled back to low light, and if I want to grow some of the harder plants I try a combination of liquid carbon, ferts; and if needed co2 injection, which has produced healthy carpets.

Very frustrating when first entering the hobby and reading about very intense (expensive!) lighting, when it's probably the last factor to consider...


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## Aqua360

I should also add, when first starting planted; I received a little criticism for opting to use liquid pre-prepared ferts, instead of jumping into EI method with dry salts.

I've never used EI or dry ferts, solely relying on liquid ferts to this day; and have found them to be effective.

Not saying they aren't as cost effective as salts etc or that they offer micro management, but I think the EI method is very strongly enforced sometimes as the one and only way, when it doesn't need to be.


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## roadmaster

EI is but one of a few method's, but easily (in my view) the most favored for those who wish to largely eliminate deficiencies when first starting out.
Leaves only light and CO2 to focus on.
Can start with EI level's and scale down till poor performance or algae becomes problematic, and then bump nutrient's back to previous level.
Hard to tell much if plant's are dying from the out set due to deficiencies of one or more nutrient's.
I have used liquid fert and currently the dry mineral salt's and the mineral salt's last way longer than the liquid (mostly water) in fairly large tank(s).
In smaller tank's,maybe not so much a concern.


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## Jack Reilly

Aqua360 said:


> I should also add, when first starting planted; I received a little criticism for opting to use liquid pre-prepared ferts, instead of jumping into EI method with dry salts.



People recommend dry salts because they cost a fraction of what the commercial liquid fertilisers do. Are there any reasons to use commercial liquid ferts over dry ferts?

You may have received criticism, but it was probably just people trying to help. If it was zealots, that's unfortunate.

I post on Tom Barr's forum, and even there I don't feel pressure to follow the EI method. Tom himself repeatedly says that it's not the only method that works, and that even if you decide to follow EI, the rules aren't set in stone. But he does suggest you have reasons to deviate from it, based on evidence, which is rational.



Aqua360 said:


> Not saying they aren't as cost effective as salts etc or that they offer micro management, but I think the EI method is very strongly enforced sometimes as the one and only way, when it doesn't need to be.



Personally I haven't found that to be the case, that's it's strongly enforced. It is suggested frequently, but that's just because it's a very simple way to fertilise your tank and avoid deficiencies. People suck at explaining it though.


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## Jack Reilly

I remember a story I heard about a university professor who had been researching and teaching a theory for over a decade. One day one of his students proved the entire theory to be incorrect. The professor walked down to the student, with tears in his eyes, hugged him and said "thank you".

This is the attitude I have towards the hobby.


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## Aqua360

Jack Reilly said:


> People recommend dry salts because they cost a fraction of what the commercial liquid fertilisers do. Are there any reasons to use commercial liquid ferts over dry ferts?
> 
> You may have received criticism, but it was probably just people trying to help. If it was zealots, that's unfortunate.
> 
> I post on Tom Barr's forum, and even there I don't feel pressure to follow the EI method. Tom himself repeatedly says that it's not the only method that works, and that even if you decide to follow EI, the rules aren't set in stone. But he does suggest you have reasons to deviate from it, based on evidence, which is rational.
> 
> 
> 
> Personally I haven't found that to be the case, that's it's strongly enforced. It is suggested frequently, but that's just because it's a very simple way to fertilise your tank and avoid deficiencies. People suck at explaining it though.



Convenience mostly. 

But as per the topic, as a beginner it was slightly deflating.


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## parotet

Praxis + persistence is the cornerstone of every hobby I am into. It just blows all the barriers we create for understanding complexity (in our case, low/high tech, high/low light, etc.). Personally I see in my hobbies a learning curve. In the first stages I swallow all the information that gets to my hands and I probably get obsessed with some issues. Then real life or new interests come, but most of the times it comes back again. With panted tanks it's been like this for about 3 years now. And honestly, I just don't know how to classify my light, dosing routine and CO2... i just don't care because I am able to grow most of the plants I love in a comfortable way for me.
Just keep on walking and forget about the rest, it is a very beautiful hobby to get stuck with all this, maybe good stuff for learning and night reading but never a constraint!

Jordi


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Jack Reilly said:


> People recommend dry salts because they cost a fraction of what the commercial liquid fertilisers do. Are there any reasons to use commercial liquid ferts over dry ferts?


Jack is right, what ever any-one says _"an ion is an ion is an ion". 
_
Plants can only take up mineral nutrients as ions. 

Potassium (K+) ions are the same whether they came from the dissolution of potassium chloride (KCl), or from the dissolution of potassium nitrate (KNO3). 

The potassium (K39) on earth has been present for the last 4.5 billion years (and was formed some time before 7.5 billion years ago), it is highly reactive, soluble and an essential nutrient for plant growth and will have been constantly re-cycled (as an ion) through-out that time from the breakdown of rocks and organic compounds.

cheers Darrel


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## Manisha

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, Jack is right, what ever any-one says _"an ion is an ion is an ion".
> _
> Plants can only take up mineral nutrients as ions.
> 
> Potassium (K+) ions are the same whether they came from the dissolution of potassium chloride (KCl), or from the dissolution of potassium nitrate (KNO3).
> 
> The potassium (K39) on earth has been present for the last 4.5 billion years (and was formed some time before 7.5 billion years ago), it is highly reactive, soluble and an essential nutrient for plant growth and will have been constantly re-cycled (as an ion) through-out that time from the breakdown of rocks and organic compounds.
> 
> cheers Darrel



I understand & agree but feel EI & mixing salts for a new hobbyist can seem difficult & may be a possible barrier? I am yet to use EI & dry salts but dose equivalent amounts on a nano using an all in one simply for convenience!


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Manisha said:


> I understand & agree but feel EI & mixing salts for a new hobbyist can seem difficult & may be a possible barrier? I am yet to use EI & dry salts but dose equivalent amounts on a nano using an all in one simply for convenience!


 I agree. I recommend the <"all in one"> mixes from one of our sponsors.

It is only really if you have a large volume tank (or you need to count the pennies) that it makes sense to start with dry salts.

I'd be the first to admit that it is a case of "_do what I say_", not "_do what I do_". 

For the_ "do what I do"_ part at the moment I have a coffee jar filled with <"Yara PG mix"> (mainly because I bought 25 kg of it for work), and then when either floating plants on the tank, or the house plants, look a bit peaky I sprinkle a good pinch of the fertiliser into the tank or plant pot. I've only recently run out of the liquid fertiliser from this thread <"What Ferts...">. I'm not going to recommend this as an approach, it would be irresponsible, although my suspicion is that a number of the, more long term, planted tank keeping members do something similar.

Making up reagents (or explaining to people how to make up solutions etc.) has been part of my "day job" for the last ~30 years. I think it is easy to forget that not every-one is familiar with the periodic table, SI units, molarity etc. or has access to a three place balance, a chemical store, a chemistry technician etc.

cheers Darrel


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## Aqua360

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,  I agree. I recommend the <"all in one"> mixes from one of our sponsors.
> 
> It is only really if you have a large volume tank (or you need to count the pennies) that it makes sense to start with dry salts.
> 
> I'd be the first to admit that it is a case of "_do what I say_", not "_do what I do_".
> 
> For the_ "do what I do"_ part at the moment I have a coffee jar filled with <"Yara PG mix"> (mainly because I bought 25 kg of it for work), and then when either floating plants on the tank, or the house plants, look a bit peaky I sprinkle a good pinch of the fertiliser into the tank or plant pot. I've only recently run out of the liquid fertiliser from this thread <"What Ferts...">. I'm not going to recommend this as an approach, it would be irresponsible, although my suspicion is that a number of the, more long term, planted tank keeping members do something similar.
> 
> Making up reagents (or explaining to people how to make up solutions etc.) has been part of my "day job" for the last ~30 years. I think it is easy to forget that not every-one is familiar with the periodic table, SI units, molarity etc. or has access to a three place balance, a chemical store, a chemistry technician etc.
> 
> cheers Darrel



may or may not be along the same lines, but I tend to look at the salvinia natans in my shrimp tank and do the same; helps me avoid going overboard on ferts, while keeping water changes down to a minimum


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## Manisha

I think it's normal for there to be a discrepancy between 'what I say' & 'what I do' because there will always be other commitments beyond the hobby ☺ One reason why I prefer low tech, as the slower pace means it's more forgiving & I can balance it better with other things. 

On a low tech nano the 'salvinia' is far more practical than attempting a 1/10 EI dose


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