# Using a PH controller



## JacksonL (15 May 2022)

I was going to post this is the dialling in CO2 thread, but didn’t want to take it further off topic!
I am wondering if those that use a PH controller could give a bit more information on their setups?
I am interested in:
What brand do you use?
How often do you calibrate? What is the process for calibrating your controller?
How long do the probes last?
What resolution does your controller read? 
How do you administer the CO2? (ie diffuser or reactor?)
Does it ‘overshoot’ the target at all?

Thanks for any replies!
(@Sdogg @Yugang @GreggZ )


----------



## JoshP12 (15 May 2022)

Locals use Ista. 

As long as it’s calibrated to yield the same result (consistently wrong)… you can just “drop it lower” and ignore the reading.

I’ve used “uncalibrated” proves that give consistently “wrong” results … but all I cared for were relative changes.


----------



## Yugang (15 May 2022)

I used a Chinese controller, very cheap but good for the job. Believe I paid less than 100 GBP for the full set in 2016.






I used it with various in tank and in line diffusors, and later with a CO2 reactor. The first probe lasted about two years, until forgot to keep it wet during a home move, bought a new one for 220 HKD (23 GBP).

My calibration routine was to take some water after weekly 60% water change (mostly degassed already), let it further degas for one night and dip the pH probe in, just to be sure everything is ok. 
Mostly I would find that calibration still good and find same pH value again, but only if needed adjust the pH 7 calibration. Don't worry about pH 4, the slope. Only monthly, or even with longer interval, check calibration with both pH 7 and pH 4 buffers. After some time, everything as expected, checking starts to be boring and allow longer intervals.

The controller keeps the pH within 0.1 stable. No overshoot or any problems that I am aware of.



Yugang said:


> After several happy years with my pH/CO2 controller I stopped using it. The controller switches the solenoid off when target is reached, then on again when pH has drifted 0.1 pH higher. When on, you inject a wave of relatively highly injected water in the tank, leading to localised CO2 inhomogeneities for the plants. This effect can be minimised by setting a lower bubble rate, but the downside is that it does not longer allow for the fast ramp up that is possible with pH/CO2 controllers.


----------



## GreggZ (15 May 2022)

JacksonL said:


> I was going to post this is the dialling in CO2 thread, but didn’t want to take it further off topic!
> I am wondering if those that use a PH controller could give a bit more information on their setups?
> I am interested in:
> What brand do you use?
> ...


I have been using an American Pinpoint Marine unit for many years. It's a high quality unit with a BNC connected probe. The resolution goes down to 0.01 which is nice. I generally adjust in 0.05 increments.

I calibrate about once a month, and the unit is very rarely off by more than 0.02. Calibration is simple. Stick the probe in calibration solutions and adjust as needed. My last probe lasted about 3 years. 

As to "overshooting" the target the answer is yes and no. The way the controller works is to shut off CO2 at a set pH, then turn it back on at a set pH. 

So in my case my set point is 4.85. When the pH hits 4.85 the unit shuts off the CO2. Now it could drift a bit lower maybe down to 4.82  before it starts rising. But nothing to worry about. My high end set point is 4.95. So when the pH reaches 4.95 CO2 is turned back on. So basically I am at a 1.3 to 1.4 pH drop all day long via CO2 injection. 

I hope that helps.


----------



## JacksonL (15 May 2022)

Thanks, very helpful. 
I think I am interested in giving one a try. Mostly because I love a gadget but also because it would remove one point of worry when I am away from the tank for a week or two.


----------



## Sdogg (15 May 2022)

The whole ordeal of doing a PH profile manually then adjusting accordingly, all the while using a drop checker to confirm etc etc blah blah blah - seems so imprecise and a chore to me. Doing a PH profile is generally accepted as the standard method of dialling in Co2. A controller is just a refinement of this process.

My UP controller was about £100, I like a gadget too, worth every penny. Having a constant live real time PH readout seems like such a simple thing, but having a number to go by is everything. You KNOW what is going on instantly. Without it, I struggled, I felt essentially blind, unless I stuck a PH pen in or I fancied guessing what shade of green my drop checker was.....

E.g
If I set target as 6.30
Controller will shut solenoid at 6.27 and reopen and 6.33
So easy and faultless so far. I've been using it about a year, still using original probe. Works well with my reactor, good Co2 and no fizzy water, fantastic.

I'm willing to bet my (our) Co2 control is far more precise than the mainstream YouTubers that don't use controllers. _Gasp controversial_. Their shotgun approach of slapping an in line diffuser on to a setup and watching for green just doesn't cut it for me.

I guess I'm a huge advocate for PH controllers lol


----------



## Yugang (16 May 2022)

Yugang said:


> I paid less than 100 GBP





Sdogg said:


> My UP controller was about £100





GreggZ said:


> using an American Pinpoint Marine



So it looks like entry level is fully adequate, retails slightly above 100 GBP. Amazon Pinpoint Marine and Milwaukee models can go up to double, and some exotic models far more. An open question is what benefits more expensive models bring. Even with buying an entry level controller, there is no need any more for spending on pricy CO2 regulators, as the exact bubble rate when solenoid is switched on is nearly irrelevant. For a demanding CO2 user (expecting 0.1 pH stability), especially with larger tanks, the combination of cheap CO2 regulator and entry level controller seems more economical (and better performing / see below remark) than spending on high end regulators.

For technology freaks (apologize, here I go again 🤓) it is interesting to remember again how rough the control process is in a traditional regulator/diffusor/tank setup.
We start to inject lots of CO2 bubbles, which partially accumulate but mostly eventually outgas to our living room. After one, or a few hours, the outgassing has increased that much, that it balances more or less (assuming some plant uptake as well) the injection. When outgassing+plantuptake equals injection, we know that accumulated CO2 ppm in the water column must be constant, and we may call that 'control'. 
Now simple math tells us that when we double down, increase outgassing (agitation) as well as injection  it is easier to reach a stable state in the water column.  Essentially, by just throwing more CO2 into the process that, yes indeed, will end up mostly, through outgassing at the surface, in our living room.
The key point is that we actually don't 'control' the CO2 in the water column, and that's why it is so hard to reach 0.1 stability.
This is why pH controllers are so much easier, because they actually control (have a feedback loop) the parameter that our plants need to be stable. Through that control loop it is nearly irrelevant how good our CO2 regulator is, if we control the surface outgassing through our spray bar, or how much of the CO2 is actually taken up by plants. The controller manages that for us.,



Yugang said:


> After several happy years with my pH/CO2 controller I stopped using it. The controller switches the solenoid off when target is reached, then on again when pH has drifted 0.1 pH higher. When on, you inject a wave of relatively highly injected water in the tank, leading to localised CO2 inhomogeneities for the plants. This effect can be minimised by setting a lower bubble rate, but the downside is that it does not longer allow for the fast ramp up that is possible with pH/CO2 controllers.


I may start using my CO2 controller again, and do some further experiments. In my current setup (no controller) I know my bubble count to achieve target CO2. I am going to set this bubble count 20% higher, but in combination with my CO2 controller. This should give a more gentle control, and be the best of both worlds.


----------



## GreggZ (16 May 2022)

Yugang said:


> So it looks like entry level is fully adequate, retails slightly above 100 GBP. Amazon Pinpoint Marine and Milwaukee models can go up to double, and some exotic models far more. An open question is what benefits more expensive models bring. Even with buying an entry level controller, there is no need any more for spending on pricy CO2 regulators, as the exact bubble rate when solenoid is switched on is nearly irrelevant. For a demanding CO2 user (expecting 0.1 pH stability), especially with larger tanks, the combination of cheap CO2 regulator and entry level controller seems more economical (and better performing / see below remark) than spending on high end regulators.


Very good post.

IMO, like many things in life, there is a sweet spot where the law of diminishing returns applies. 

With CO2 controllers/monitors, it has mostly to do with the probe. Most cheap probes are not very accurate and they need to be replaced on a pretty regular basis. When you move up to something like the American Pinpoint Marine, you have a probe that rarely drifts and lasts for many years. 

Once you get above that level you are paying a great deal more for very little return. 

And I agree with your point cheap regulators and controllers. I've said before if I was starting out from scratch, I would get a  good quality controller and the cheapest regulator I could find. The actual flow rate means little when you have a controller.


----------



## Yugang (16 May 2022)

GreggZ said:


> And by the way Barr has used pH controllers many times. He uses them on his customers tanks as he's not there to constantly dial it in for them.


For years I have been following 'the American way' for high tech, until more recently active on UKAPS. It is funny, when it comes to CO2 controlling it seems that we have some catching up to do on UKAPS 



Yugang said:


> PS. CO2 dream machine builds on the benefits of pH/CO2 controllers, but takes it one step further with new benefits. I have found a more powerful concept however, simpler, cheaper and can probably be built by a hobbyist in a garage box. Still contemplating if/how to share for the hobby


Introduce it on UKAPS, now that we had some good discussion on the basic technology and perhaps a more receptive environment? Or go 'overseas' again?
A recent thread on  the Third World War on UKAPS seems less controversial than a new CO2 control concept


----------



## Zeus. (16 May 2022)

I have an UP pH controller as well used it at first in my 500l tank and had no real issues with it. Then I changed over to dialling the CO2 in via needle valves and timers etc. I cant 100% remember why I change over, it was probably due to the horror stories where the controller would go cawonkas because of reading errors or whatnot and then gasing the whole tank, plus I was injecting CO2 at a very very high rate. Plus this was before a learnt about the cheapo needle valves most of us use, then we have the varying room [CO2] as well.

You guys have made some excellent points IMO and I'm rethinking the possible use of a pH controller again on my next CO2 injected tank (tanks presently all non CO2 injected as renovating house ATM)


----------



## zozo (16 May 2022)

Things you could take into consideration about aquariums and electricity and Ph meters/controllers.

An aquarium simply is a bucket of conductive water, the solids (salts) in this water determine its conductive capacity. When the waterbody is grounded it will conduct, when it's not grounded it will charge with electrons capacitively.

It requires electrical thus conductive equipment, such as pumps, heaters, light, optional feeders and or measure equipment. This equipment runs power 24/7 over coils and such back and forth from and to the electrical grid and it creates a magnetic force field, the device itself and the power cable has it. In simple terms, this forcefield is an electron flow over the atmosphere and your aquarium stands in a magnetic electron bubble. Therefore a capacitive and or conductive coupling between equipment and aquarium is unavoidable.

This actually also happens in your home installation, if for example there are several electrical cables in 1 tube in the wall and 2 cables run power and the others are switched off. Then there still is a conductive coupling between all cables because of the forcefield from the cables that run power. In some cases, people report LED lights that keep glowing faintly when actually switched off? This phenomenon can be is caused by such a conductive coupling from the cables in the wall. Look up both types of couplings to learn a bit more about how and why it establishes.

Back to the tank and its capacitive properties and the capacitive coupling when all equipment is switched on... As said it's a bucket of water in glass insulation and as long as the water is not grounded it can only charge till a certain point and only release this charge again over the atmosphere (moist conductive air). And these values are harmlessly tiny. This all changes when you ground the water, this you can do by sticking a finger in the water and touching something conductive such as a heater pipe from the house. In some cases, you can feel it. You can also take a multimeter and set it to measure (small) voltages, put the positive lead in the tank water and hold to negative lead to something grounded and you'll have a 99% chance you will measure a voltage. Reports of people measuring up to 60 volts from their aquarium can be found out there... 

And as said, when you stop measuring and stop grounding the water then it just remains a charge the water holds and it goes nowhere. It only conducts physically when grounded.

Now the Ph controller is a voltage meter, it measures the difference between the fluid in the probe and the water to determine a value that is recalculated to a pH value on the display. And it only can do this when connected to the power grid, thus the Ph probe grounds the water. Depending on the conductive coupling capacity and the capacitive coupling capacity between other equipment and the water all this charge will leave the tank over the pH probe. And since the pH meter is a voltmeter this electricity flow can cause incorrect and fluctuating measurements. Then your pH controller renders rather useless and unpredictable. It doesn't need to be much, you can find reports of people complaining about Milwaukee controllers with a constantly rattling relay and solenoid. Simply because of the 0.1 pH threshold and a fluctuating measurement because of the electrical interference in between its set threshold value making it switch on and off constantly. This could happen suddenly when the heater switches on or off and the conductive coupling it causes alters.

Some Milwaukee controllers use a low reference voltage and could be more susceptible to interference than other brand controllers using a higher reference voltage, some brands such as Hanna equip their meters with a separate ground pin to circumvent these interferences and guarantee more stability. I've used the sensitive Milwaukee for quite some time that rattled now and then and also used the rock steady Hanna, but the Hanna I could feel measuring with my finger in the water.

Anyway, stable or not, that's not my point, the point is a permanently connected pH probe will ground your aquarium and make it conductive.

An old school rule of thumb was never to ground your aquarium water... Simply pull all the plugs of electrical equipment before you are thinking of sticking a finger in it. Not only for the latter but also and maybe even more for your fish's LLO function.

If we can measure it and in some cases even feel it, then what about the fish? This debate still holds a lot of controversies, which we yet don't fully understand. But there are reports of claims that electrical current flowing through the water can cause harm to fish but yet there is no real scientific proof of at what values it starts and ends. Well, it definitively ends at the high voltages that we know. But a constant long term irritation in the lower range is still beyond our grasp, we can't tell and the fish can't tell us. It's the lack of proof overshadowing the plausibility the trade uses to sell to you for your convenience.

I can only give an opinion, which is irrelevant at this point...


----------



## DeepMetropolis (16 May 2022)

zozo said:


> Things you should take into consideration about aquariums and electricity and Ph meters/controllers.
> 
> An aquarium simply is a bucket of conductive water, the solids (salts) in this water determine its conductive capacity. When the waterbody is grounded it will conduct, when it's not grounded it will charge with electrons capacitively.


How interesting, makes sense. But isn't our aquarium not a bit grounded by the wires we put in the water heaters and such.. As far as my understanding of electricity goes it also travels around the wires but you have to have an carrier to let it flow like a conductive material.


----------



## Aleman (16 May 2022)

I use a JBL Proflora pH Touch, pretty much have done since Day 1 of filling. It's a great unit, I set it to the KH of the water (~1.0) and it works out what the pH needs to be ( pH 6.15), and then controls the pH via CO2 injection to within the hysteresis I set (+/- 0.1 pH Units). I use the needle valve on the regulator to control the rate of pH change. When the KH was 5, then I had more bubbles / min than I do now with the KH of 1.0, this is because the higher the KH the more it buffers the change in pH. I try and get the same rise and fall in pH over time, regardless of pH to avoid stressing the fish. The good thing is, now that I have stabilised my KH where I want it to be, I don't have to change the settings on the pH Touch or the regulator.

I use an inline homemade Cerges reactor, getting a few micro bubbles in the tank, but thats a good thing as it lets me know that the flow is reaching all parts of the tank.

Calibration is done using the supplied kit, and is automated, the unit tells you what to do, follow the instructions and it's job done ... It even nags you and goes into alarm mode if you go over your chosen calibration interval  (28, 45 or 60 - not recommended, days).

Yeah, it's expensive, and new probes are not cheap, but it works, it's one less thing for me to think about, and I have a visual check of what the pH, and therefore the CO2 level is in the tank. The other plus point is, it's a great "Boys Toy" ... I came down this morning, and had a "WTF!" moment, "Why is the pH that high ( pH 6.48 ) ?" Turns out my CO2 cylinder is on it's last legs, so I swapped it out for a new 5Kg fire extinguisher.

To answer Marcel's point the JBL Proflora unit that I have comes with a double insulated power supply with only 2 pins, live and neutral, so in this case the pH controller is not earthing the tank.


----------



## Yugang (16 May 2022)

zozo said:


> An old school rule of thumb was never to ground your aquarium water.


I am happy to be corrected on this, I am not an electrical engineer - As a physicist I would put my water and all (measurement) equipment to the same ground, and don't like conducting stuff that is not properly grounded.

The argument is indeed a very valid area of attention, but seems more a call for correct design and operation than a fundamental obstacle. Correct?


----------



## zozo (16 May 2022)

DeepMetropolis said:


> But isn't our aquarium not a bit grounded by the wires we put in the water heaters and such..



Yes a tiny bit maybe, all are insulated, as said there actually is a % of grounding over the atmosphere on rainy days more than on the sunny dry days.  This type of grounding is tiny and about neglectable, or should I say unavoidable, we can't do anything about it other than unplug it all. Neglectable by force... We don't know...

Physically grounding it with a rather high conductive material such as the available titanium ground pins and or a simple Ph probe that is connected to ground(negative lead) from the electrical grid makes it flow freely without any restrictions.

As said, the debate holds a lot of controversies because we yet do not really know how it affects fish...  And since we don't you can find Aquarium ground pins in the trade advertising we should ground our aquariums for our safety. We don't have the proof thus F... the fish safety, we come first so let us use that to make some money and give you a titanium ground pin.








						Vertex Titanium grounding pole - grounding with titanium sensor | Tools for aquarium maintenance
					

Vertex Titanium grounding pole - grounding with titanium sensor The titanium grounding pin from Vertex Aquaristik gives your aquarium a positive electrical ground




					reef-aquarium-store.com
				




There is no murder without a dead body...

And as said, I can only give an opinion, which is irrelevant... Just make your own with whatever gives you peace. 

And if you have a Ph controller then you know now how and why it could be incorrect and unreliable...  Simply do not trust it as long you didn't eliminate all possible potential interfering sources.


----------



## zozo (16 May 2022)

Another old school rule of thumb is written in the books, old-timer here at the forum can confirm, once was, never to switch on all lights at once, the sudden light flash may startle the fish...  So we were advised to install different colours of tube lights, starting with a UV tube an dwait 30 minutes before switching on the yellows and reds. That was our old school gradual dim function back in the day.

And indeed when you switched on all lights at once you could see the fish get startled...

Nowadays in the LED era people use LED controllers you can find videos of guys creating Thunder lightning effects above their aquarium. LO and behold!! 0 people report fish being startled! They go on with their daily life as if nothing happened.

Refer this experience back to old school tube light installation with ballasts and starters and in many cases all situated under the hood. What is the next best-educated guess of what actually startled the fish back in the day? The sudden power surge over the ballast and tube starters? Or is Tube Light light so much more irritating than LED light?

I bet a month's wages on the power surge over the ballasts and starters 10 inches above the water surface...  We didn't know back then because it was all we had so we blamed the light itself... Now we have LED that doesn't require heavy ballast and starters and see it actually ain't the light flash causing it.


----------



## DeepMetropolis (16 May 2022)

zozo said:


> And as said, I can only give an opinion, which is irrelevant... Just make your own with whatever gives you peace.
> 
> And if you have a Ph controller then you know now how and why it could be incorrect and unreliable... Simply do not trust it as long you didn't eliminate all possible potential interfering sources.


I don't use a ph controller nor do I ground my tank. Most equipment I use on my tank doesn't even have a ground wire. Just found your post interesting to think about it..


----------



## zozo (16 May 2022)

DeepMetropolis said:


> I don't use a ph controller nor do I ground my tank. Most equipment I use on my tank doesn't even have a ground wire. Just found your post interesting to think about it..



I once did use them for a few years and experienced interference and erratic pH readings... So I started digging to find out how and why. Finding out was the reason why I stopped using them...


----------



## zozo (16 May 2022)

Aleman said:


> To answer Marcel's point the JBL Proflora unit that I have comes with a double insulated power supply with only 2 pins, live and neutral, so in this case the pH controller is not earthing the tank.



The (yellow-green) ground lead we have at home is a physical pin hit into the ground at the fuse box. The positive (brown) lead and the negative (Blue) lead go to the power companies control box somewhere in your neighbourhood/street where the Live is hooked to the power grid and the Neutral lead to a pin in the ground.

Big apartment buildings that actually have their own control box at the entrance door only have a 3 phase Live and a (yellow-green) ground coming in and in the building at fuse boxes, this ground is split into Ground and Neutral.

So both are actually the same...  Thus a permanent measuring device hooked to the power plug is always grounded by the Neutral lead... That's why pH meters/controllers ground the stray voltage coming from other equipment leaving/flowing to the ground over the Neutral lead.

Some pH controllers go bonkers over it... Because it measures a voltage difference between its own life and neutral to determine the pH value. Now the stray voltage in the tank flows away over its neutral interfering with what it reads... And gives a wrong or erratic value...


----------



## Yugang (16 May 2022)

zozo said:


> The (yellow-green) ground lead we have at home is a physical pin hit into the ground at the fuse box. The positive (brown) lead and the negative (Blue) lead go to the power companies control box somewhere in your neighbourhood/street where the Live is hooked to the power grid and the Neutral lead to a pin in the ground.
> 
> Big apartment buildings that actually have their own control box at the entrance door only have a 3 phase Live and a (yellow-green) ground coming in and in the building at fuse boxes, this ground is split into Ground and Neutral.
> 
> So both are actually the same...  Thus a permanent measuring device hooked to the power plug is always grounded by the Neutral lead... That's why pH meters/controllers ground the stray voltage coming from other equipment leaving/flowing to the ground over the Neutral lead. Some pH controllers go bonkers over it...


This is definitely  a design flaw, for a device that has been created to operate continuously and with high precision. Good point, and worth feedback to the manufacturer


----------



## zozo (16 May 2022)

Yugang said:


> This is definitely be a design flaw, for a device that has been created to operate continuously and with high precision. Good point, and worth feedback to the manufacturer



I guess it's not, a voltage meter can't measure anything if it doesn't have a life and a neutral. I guess they are not really designed for this particular small scale hobby purpose with so many potential interfering devices around them. The aquarium trade is nothing more than a commercial hitchhiker making a nice profit not telling you the complete story... As what they do with so many other things, such as bacteria in a bottle or plants that are actually terrestrial and doomed to die if permanent submerged.

They are sellers, not scholars...


----------



## GreggZ (16 May 2022)

zozo said:


> I once did use them for a few years and experienced interference and erratic pH readings... So I started digging to find out how and why. Finding out was the reason why I stopped using them...


While this is interesting myself and the dozens of people I know who use pH controllers would argue otherwise. I can tell you my American Pinpoint unit is rock steady. There are loads of other reasons your probe may have been off, but I seriously doubt it had anything at all to with your theory. 

I can tell you in general that folks who use controllers love them and wouldn't be without them. I've communicated with enough of them over to years to be confident in that statement. 

But again the biggest issue is fluctuating dKH. If your dKH is not stable, then a controller may not be for you.


----------



## zozo (16 May 2022)

GreggZ said:


> While this is interesting myself and the dozens of people I know who use pH controllers would argue otherwise. I can tell you my American Pinpoint unit is rock steady. There are loads of other reasons your probe may have been off, but I seriously doubt it had anything at all to with your theory.
> 
> I can tell you in general that folks who use controllers love them and wouldn't be without them. I've communicated with enough of them over to years to be confident in that statement.
> 
> But again the biggest issue is fluctuating dKH. If your dKH is not stable, then a controller may not be for you.



 As said I'm not into sharing my opinion or arguing with others on theirs and it's certainly not about party-pooping the pH controller enthusiast...

That a pH probe does ground the aquarium water is not a theory it's a 1+1=2 you can't get around. This also goes for quite a lot of pH controllers that are rather susceptible and unreliable this can be found all over the net. The cause is mainly only discussed in the Electronics DIY communities with members knowledgeable in electronics. As you can read in the below thread (one of many), an extra ground pin in the aquarium water resolved the faulty Ph reading because it gives unrestricted flow to the ground and minimze the ground flow over the probe. What flows to the ground is capacitive current that comes from other electrical devices.








						Arduino + PH probe in Aquarium. Ground Loop. Please help.
					

Hi, I'm making a project with arduino that monitor my reef aquarium. So one of the things that I have is PH monitoring.  To do that, I have the Atlas Scientific Ph Stamps:    http://atlas-scientific.com/product_pages/embedded/ph.html  My connection is like this:    When I mesure the PH inside a...




					forum.arduino.cc
				




 So I'm also not saying there aren't any stable Ph controllers, I had them myself... 

But they are still voltmeters and thus send a voltage into the tank water, they also function as a ground for the tank water and make the capacitive current flow out freely... And an electrical current flowing through the aquarium is not a natural thing and it might be not so nice for your fish... Since fish do rely on a number of Electro receptive organs to communicate, find food and get around their environment.

Whoever will argue otherwise, fine by me... I'm also not here to share my opinion on what one should or shouldn't do, everybody can make and control their own...


----------



## JacksonL (17 May 2022)

What about timers? I assume you all turn off the co2 injection overnight?
Do you put the timer at the controllers electrical plug (ie the controller itself shuts off overnight) or between the solenoid and the controller outlet (ie controller stays on overnight but the timer prevents it powering on the solenoid)?


----------



## Yugang (17 May 2022)

JacksonL said:


> What about timers? I assume you all turn off the co2 injection overnight?
> Do you put the timer at the controllers electrical plug (ie the controller itself shuts off overnight) or between the solenoid and the controller outlet (ie controller stays on overnight but the timer prevents it powering on the solenoid)?


       same question in this other thread     

My cheap controller has no timer, so put the controller on a timer.
Some controllers may have a timer, then they take care of it.


----------



## JacksonL (17 May 2022)

Yugang said:


> same question in this other thread
> 
> My cheap controller has no timer, so put the controller on a timer.
> Some controllers may have a timer, then they take care of it.


I haven’t seen one with a built in timer in my research so far, apart from the full blown reef tank controllers.
I guess what I am saying is I see two different ways to install an external timer to the controller.
1) add a timer to the powerpoint that the controller itself plugs into, turning the controller itself off overnight.
2) adding a timer to the controlled outlet that powers the CO2 solenoid, leaving the controller on but preventing the solenoid from opening.
I have a preference for option 2 as it leaves the controller on, which means I can view the pH 24 hours a day, not just when the CO2 is on. I am not sure if there is an issue with running it this way though so I was wondering if anyone chooses this option?


----------



## Aleman (17 May 2022)

JacksonL said:


> What about timers? I assume you all turn off the co2 injection overnight?


I did think about this when setting mine up, but in the end just left it to do it's own thing. My light are on from 16:00 to 22:00, so I have plenty of opportunity during the day to check what the pH is doing "In the dark", and the answer is ... Not much! Certainly not enough to trigger the alarm function of the controller, which I have set to a =/- 0.2 pH units ... the controller having a hysteresis of 0.1.

If I did decide to put a timer on it, then I would go with option 2 as well ... This can always be tested by pulling the plug out of the solenoid to see if it really makes all that difference.


----------



## dw1305 (17 May 2022)

Hi all, 
With the usual disclaimer that I'm not a CO2 user and I never will be, but I do know a reasonable amount about pH measurement via my "day job".


GreggZ said:


> Most cheap probes are not very accurate and they need to be replaced on a pretty regular basis. When you move up to something like the American Pinpoint Marine, you have a probe that rarely drifts and lasts for many years.


That would be <"worry straight away">. Most of the probes work by exchanging potassium (K+) ions from <"their internal supply"> for protons (H+) ions in solution. As they begin to run out of K+ ions (from the internal reservoir of KCl), they begin to drift, usually this doesn't matter (because you will pick it up), but if the pH probe is controlling CO2 injection? The results are potentially catastrophic.

cheers Darrel


----------



## zozo (17 May 2022)

JacksonL said:


> What about timers? I assume you all turn off the co2 injection overnight?


That is what's advised and commonly done, something like switching on the CO² via timer about 1 or 2 hours before the lights come on depending on how fast you get to your desired pH level. And switch it off again an hour before the lights go out since it doesn't all gas out immediately.

Depending on the controller construction it is an easy thing... I had the Milwaukee that has its own DC12 volt power supply and a plug with a socket. Thus it requires 2 main sockets to operate.




Have the power supply constantly powered and the extra extension socket/plug for the solenoid should be plugged into a different socket on a timer switch.

I do also see controllers without a separate PSU that confuse me a bit, should get my hands on them to figure it out. Such as...




Put the timer on E the controller will also be switched off... Put the timer on D then the timer will run on its battery power each time the relay from the controller switches off?  Personally, I would steer away from such a design... But I actually don't know, never had one... But the looks of it the second one is not really designed to use with a timer without making strange curves.


----------



## JacksonL (17 May 2022)

The other option I thought of is to put a standalone solenoid downstream from the solenoid the controller is connected to, and have that run off a timer.


----------



## Ria95 (17 May 2022)

> As said I'm not into sharing my opinion or ...


Interesting theory, Marcel! However I suspect the effect to be minimal, if at all, when all the other equipment is running in good order. Also not sharing my opinion, but my observations. 

pH probe in tank , plug everything  out of shared power strip except the controller  ...same pH
plug everything back in ...same pH
Move pH controller to a separate wall socket...same pH.
Take a sample of tank water in a plastic container, dry the exterior put on a table put probe in and wait a minute till it stabilizes from the air exposure ...same pH. 

Tried the same with a second pH controller... like one posted previously, on a separate aquarium ... same pH in all situations. I can't say why some controllers fail  but the theory doesn't seem to really be an issue in my tanks. Seems an easy check in any setup.



GreggZ said:


> I can tell you in general that folks who use controllers love them and wouldn't be without them. I've communicated with enough of them over to years to be confident in that statement.
> 
> But again the biggest issue is fluctuating dKH. If your dKH is not stable, then a controller may not be for you.



Fully agree with you there, especially in the age of active buffering substrates. KH fluctuation will make a big impact, followed by accumulation of weak organic acids ... just enough to push the pH down bit by bit.  

Still a controller comes in handy as a fail-safe device. Dial in the injection rate so that the desired pH is maintained with the solenoid open for most of the  light period. Set pH controller a bit lower than that.  In case CO2 injection somehow gets too high the pH controller will catch it and close it of.  Some other members on this forum are also using it like that.


----------



## zozo (17 May 2022)

Ria95 said:


> Interesting theory, Marcel! However I suspect the effect to be minimal, if at all, when all the other equipment is running in good order. Also not sharing my opinion, but my observations.



I'm not quite sure what effect you're pointing to, I described rather a few...

Anyway... For the record,  the only theory in my story is that an electrical current flowing through the aquarium water might be a discomfort for your fish... There yet is no real proof for this, but them not showing it to you might be suspicious but also isn't a disproof. We simply do not know, but we know they have highly sensitive electroreceptive organs. If it's plausible or not that they might feel artificially added electrical current I leave in the grey area it still is in. My opinion or what I believe in this part I deem irrelevant and not worthy of a yes-no discussion. Just pick a side and have fun...

For the rest, the capacitive coupling from electrical equipment with the tank water is a technical fact. Tho it's not something with universal values different pumps and heaters and lights etc. have a different impact on the values you could measure and or have an effect on the Ph controller. You can take for granted that you don't have any capacitive coupling or simply measure it. 99% chance you have it because it's a technical aspect of electrical equipment in and around water or other conductive mediums. This is all replicable and measurable.

Some pH meters are susceptible to this capacitive coupling or electric charge in the water caused by this coupling and give faulty results if it flows back over the Ph probe... Already linked to a thread about it above. Measuring outside the tank is correct and measuring inside the tank is faulty.

I personally also experienced and observed my Milwaukee controller being very inaccurate and erratic and suddenly starting buzzing like mad without any obvious physical reasons. And I didn't seem to be alone in this and the Milwaukee controller is not alone in this. That was the trigger for me to start researching the cause...

BUZZING noise from JBJ solenoid  (And this again is one of many threads about it.)

Not repeating myself, the cause is already described above. Which is not theoretical. Thus this is what you could expect using a pH controller in an aquarium with pumps, heaters and lights etc. and when you do experience it you need to tackle it. And my advice is better do not trust it out of the box from the start but make sure they are always spot on for the complete 6,8 or 10 hours, whatever period of light cycle they are used to controlling.  Simply and for short always keep in control of your controller. If you think it's a laying back in the lazy chair foolproof device doing it all for you, then you might be in for a nasty surprise one day or another. Not experiencing any issues with particular combined devices is not something universally applicable to the rest of the world and all other devices combined out there.

So this is not a theoretical rant about or against pH controllers it's just some honest review, advice and information about Using a Ph Controller and potential issues you could run into. 

Good luck...

Oh, btw back then I solved my Milwaukee problem by taking the probe out of the aquarium and putting it inline in the filter outlet in front of the lily pipe... 

Here you can see it on the left side (Blue Probe) inline behind the aquarium.


----------



## Yugang (18 May 2022)

zozo said:


> So this is not a theoretical rant about or against pH controllers it's just some honest review, advice and information about Using a Ph Controller and potential issues you could run into.


I am definitely out of my depth when it comes to this level of electrical engineering. I also get the impression that you researched very well what you're talking about. My disconnect is that I can't see why specialised electronic designers wouln't have thought about it in their design, wouldn't have found a solution (like instructing users to put water and all electronics on the same ground), why so many in the aquarium hobby (including myself) have never experienced problems with their pH controller and why it is not mentioned as a key issue for aquarium hobbyists by others.



zozo said:


> For the record,  the only theory in my story is that an electrical current flowing through the aquarium water might be a discomfort for your fish


For sure it does, and to humans as well. The challenge is to understand quantitatively at what levels we should start being concerned. If we properly ground all relevent items, or have sufficiently conducting ambient air, no faulty equipment connected, I would expect (with my  limited expertise) no issues for our aquarium.



zozo said:


> taking the probe out of the aquarium and putting it inline in the filter outlet in front of the lily pipe...


This is an interesting idea, also from a  CO2 systems control perspective      
Yet back to the electrical perspective, I am a bit puzzled why this solved your issue as the probe position is still part of your aquarium water body.

@zozo thank you for sharing your experience -  it is definitely food for thought and raising awareness of  key issues.


----------



## GreggZ (18 May 2022)

zozo said:


> I personally also experienced and observed my Milwaukee controller being very inaccurate and erratic and suddenly starting buzzing like mad without any obvious physical reasons. And I didn't seem to be alone in this and the Milwaukee controller is not alone in this. That was the trigger for me to start researching the cause...
> 
> BUZZING noise from JBJ solenoid  (And this again is one of many threads about it.)


With all due respect my guess is that if your unit was buzzing it was faulty. And the link you posted has ONE person who heard buzzing with a JBJ Solenoid back in 2004. Two others had issues and made minor changes and solved them. There are thousands of these types of units in use everyday and people have been using them successfully for years and years. 

Just saying that IMO there are loads of things to worry about in a planted tank, but your pH monitor or controller zapping your fish is not one of them. 


Yugang said:


> My disconnect is that I can't see why specialised electronic designers wouln't have thought about it in their design, wouldn't have found a solution (like instructing users to put water and all electronics on the same ground), why so many in the aquarium hobby (including myself) have never experienced problems with their pH controller and why it is not mentioned as a key issue for aquarium hobbyists by others.
> 
> Yet back to the electrical perspective, I am a bit puzzled why this solved your issue as the probe position is still part of your aquarium water body.


I was thinking the same thing. I know hundreds of people in the hobby and this is a topic that has never come up. And the companies have been selling thousands of these devices for many, many years. With so many in use I would expect something like this would not only be documented but also solved by the manufacturers. 

Also curious how moving a device from one area of the water column to another changed anything?


----------



## zozo (18 May 2022)

GreggZ said:


> With all due respect my guess is that if your unit was buzzing it was faulty. And the link you posted has ONE person who heard buzzing with a JBJ Solenoid back in 2004. Two others had issues and made minor changes and solved them. There are thousands of these types of units in use everyday and people have been using them successfully for years and years.



They all had a Milwaukee controller the same as I used, and the controller has a relay, the solenoid actually is similar to a relay it's an electric operated gas valve/switch. Guess what? If the relay switches the solenoid will follow switching too, that is the whole idea behind it. If the relay switches erratically the solenoid will do the same thing simultaneously. His bulky JBJ solenoid probably was buzzing louder than the controller's tiny relay so he didn't notice and only blamed the solenoid... 



GreggZ said:


> With so many in use I would expect something like this would not only be documented but also solved by the manufacturers.





GreggZ said:


> Also curious how moving a device from one area of the water column to another changed anything?


A less noisy spot... 

Documented? Yes, it is, and easily accessible if you are willing to find it... Solved also yes, and as said I did too but it took me quite a while to find that sweet spot in a 10ft² footprint affected by interferences.



> *Electrical Interference*
> pH is a deceptively simple measurement. However, there are many factors that need to be taken into account for a reliable reading. The most important characteristic of pH electrodes is their very high impedance, of the order of 109 ohms. This is compounded by noisy factory environments and by long distances between the electrode and the controller.



Guess what, an aquarium with pumps, heaters, and lights can be a darn noisy little factory, some light setups are noisier than others.





						PH Drops when lights turn on - Reef Central Online Community
					

PH Drops when lights turn on Large Reef Tanks



					www.reefcentral.com
				








						Reef Central Online Community - View Single Post -  PH Drops when lights turn on
					

Reef Central is dedicated to the marine reef aquarium hobby. Learn about reef aquarium setup and maintenance, and view coral and marine fish photos.  Visit our online community and discuss and chat with hobbyists of all levels from beginner to advanced.



					www.reefcentral.com
				




Funny actually talking about noise? Controller noise is caused by the noisiness in and around your fish tank.

Noise in this terminology is a synonym for "Random variation in signals of the electromagnetic spectrum that carries no useful information from the source. And extraneous uncontrolled variables influencing the distribution of measurements in a set of data."



> *Relay Hunting/Buzzing*





> Hunting of the relays around the setpoint is a very common problem faced in the industry. This may even lead to the breakdown of expensive dosing pumps and solenoids at times.








						Typical Problems in Industrial pH Measurement & Control from Cole-Parmer
					

With increasing growth in human population, water for human consumption has become scarce and increasingly polluted so monitoring water quality is important. pH is one the most important parameters that define water quality. Read this article to learn solutions to common problems in industrial...



					www.coleparmer.com
				




To say they are faulty, define faulty!? Wrong measurements? Then yes... It could be faulty and there is no guarantee it will be stable in an aquarium set up with the controller out of the box. Is it broken if it's not? No it isn't, it can be solved but if the footprint is too small and the interference too much you could be in for a treat? It's not something for the manufacturer to solve but for the end-user, if he wants to measure and control in a noisy environment.



GreggZ said:


> Just saying that IMO there are loads of things to worry about in a planted tank, but your pH monitor or controller zapping your fish is not one of them.


Nice way of emphasizing things but I didn't say anything about zapping either... I guess one should worry more about potentially gassing the fish rather than zapping them using a pH controller.


----------



## JacksonL (19 May 2022)

Thanks for all the input everyone! 
I found the newer version of the Up Aqua pH controller at a local shop and after the positive reviews of the older model here I took the plunge into pH controllers.
It looks to be the same setup as the ones posted here, just with a more modern look.


----------

