# Fish struggling at surface



## Richard40 (17 Jun 2020)

Hi all, I’ve waited 4 and half weeks to add any fish into my tank. Today was the day.
I added 10 GBR’s all of which were doing fine, but as the day has gone on a few have been struggling at the surface.
My initial thought was too much CO2 and not enough O2.
What I’ve done is turn the CO2 off for today. I will re examine I’ve raised the glass outlet pipe so that there is loads of surface agitation to create more O2. Is there anything more I can do? I have a Twinstar steriliser which is also on. 
PH was 6.5. Temp 25.
Is there anything else I can do to get these fish swimming around?


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## dean (17 Jun 2020)

Rams ?
Water change will increase O2


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Richard40 (17 Jun 2020)

Yes Rams.  Tanks on a weekly cycle for water changes which will be Sunday. 
The drop checker was a lime green colour but there must have been too much C02 and not enough surface agitation to create 02 for them.  I’m hoping now I’ve turned off the CO2 and increased 02 it might sort itself out for them.


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## Zeus. (17 Jun 2020)

They need some time to adjust to the CO2 IMO. If you have turned the CO2 off turn down your lights (if you can) slowly increase the BPS over a few days and they should be fine IMO/IME (I have never had Rams in CO2 injected tank)


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## Richard40 (17 Jun 2020)

Definitely running too much CO2 in the tank. Most are swimming around fine now. Phew....


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## Richard40 (17 Jun 2020)

I’ve turned it down to 60%. Will re evaluate the BPS tomorrow morning.


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## dw1305 (17 Jun 2020)

Hi all,





Richard40 said:


> Definitely running too much CO2 in the tank. Most are swimming around fine now.


Good, and almost certainly no permanent harm done. 





Richard40 said:


> I added 10 GBR’s





Richard40 said:


> Yes Rams.


That is a lot of territorial fish. 

Because they are cichlids, albeit fairly mild ones, there will be a pecking order with two or three dominant fish taking territories on the bottom and excluding the others. You may be all right for while, but they will eventually need about 30cm x 30cm per fish, so you can only really keep a pair long term successfully in 60cm x 30cm tank.

Have you got somewhere you can re-home some of  them? 

cheers Darrel


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## Richard40 (17 Jun 2020)

Cheers Darrel,

I’ve had mixed messages tbh regarding the Rams. I’ve read that they can be territorial but also that they prefer large groups when in the wild. Alto who has kept Rams explained this would be better. I’ve bought  juveniles on purpose because of this. I do have a separate tank if it doesn’t go to plan but also would have to take back to my LFS.


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## jaypeecee (17 Jun 2020)

Hi @Richard40 

I agree with the points raised by @dw1305. I used to keep GBRs and I was pushing my luck having two males and three females in a 125 litre tank. Darrel mentions a 60cm x 30cm tank. What size is your tank? How many males and how many females do you have?

It looks as though you've brought the CO2 under control. That's good.

Some people have difficulty keeping GBRs. I would encourage you to get acquainted with the water parameters they prefer. Here goes:

https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/mikrogeophagus-ramirezi/

Note that they do prefer warmer water than many fish. I used to keep mine at 27C.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (17 Jun 2020)

Richard40 said:


> I do have a separate tank if it doesn’t go to plan but also would have to take back to my LFS.



Hi @Richard40 

No respectable LFS would advise a lot of GBRs in a 'small' tank. May I ask where you bought your GBRs from?

JPC


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## Richard40 (17 Jun 2020)

5 female and 5 Male. I bought them from Apisto Aquatics. Like I said I went off advice from Alto and Peter Clarke from Apisto aquatics. 
It’s an EA Aquascaper 900.  If it doesn’t work out, at least I’ve tried!


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## Ghettofarmulous (17 Jun 2020)

I prefer the high surface agitation and Co2 high injection rate. Use more Co2 but O2 is plentiful also.


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## jaypeecee (17 Jun 2020)

Richard40 said:


> I’ve bought juveniles on purpose because of this.



Hi again @Richard40 

GBRs mature rapidly with a life span of 3 - 4 years. I once raised 41 GBRs after a successful spawning so I saw how quickly they developed. The juveniles themselves make spawning attempts after just a few months. They are beautiful fish and I fully intend to keep/breed them again. If you're wondering what I did with 41 of the little beauties, I sold 30 of them to MA and gave the rest to my buddies at the local aquarist society.

JPC


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## Richard40 (17 Jun 2020)

Ghettofarmulous said:


> I prefer the high surface agitation and Co2 high injection rate. Use more Co2 but O2 is plentiful also.


Yes I found that with my tank I needed a high bubble rate to get my drop checker to turn lime green at lights on and stay that way until lights off but without any fish. Plant growth has been excellent. 
I’m going to start off slightly slower with good surface agitation tomorrow and see if they are ok. Currently all enjoying swimming around sifting through the sand.


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## dw1305 (17 Jun 2020)

Hi all





> I’ve had mixed messages tbh regarding the Rams. I’ve read that they can be territorial but also that they prefer large groups when in the wild. Alto who has kept Rams explained this would be better. I’ve bought  juveniles on purpose because of this. I do have a separate tank if it doesn’t go to plan but also would have to take back to my LFS.


You do normally recommend that people buy six juvenile fish, six just makes it likely that you will get both sexes.

I’ll be quite honest, I’ve known Peter for along time, but I don’t understand why he sold you so many fish.

Cheers Darrel


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## Richard40 (17 Jun 2020)

Like I said he said they do better in larger groups. He said they spawn close to each other in large groups in the wild. Only time will tell, they are the only fish in there for a couple of weeks so I’ll keep my eye on them. Can always sell off some pairs on Band if required.


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## jaypeecee (17 Jun 2020)

Richard40 said:


> 5 female and 5 Male. I bought them from Apisto Aquatics. Like I said I went off advice from Alto and Peter Clarke from Apisto aquatics.
> It’s an EA Aquascaper 900. If it doesn’t work out, at least I’ve tried!



Ah, it looks like your tank size may just be OK. It seems that the _Aquascaper 900_ is 900 x 500 x 450 (mm) and 186 litres.

I would have expected your LFS to give you more like 7 females and 3 males but let's see how things develop. I would try to create areas in your tank where each male/female pair was out of sight from each of the other male/female pairs owing to their territorial nature. So, each pair will have its own territory. But, that's over-simplifying things somewhat. The GBRs will do their own thing.

I will watch your thread with interest.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (17 Jun 2020)

Richard40 said:


> Currently all enjoying swimming around sifting through the sand



That's great! They love sand. GBRs are geophagic fish. Sounds like they're settling in well. Please keep us posted.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (17 Jun 2020)

Richard40 said:


> Can always sell off some pairs on Band if required.



What is 'Band'?

JPC


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## jaypeecee (17 Jun 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> GBRs are geophagic fish.



Or, should I have said _benthic_ fish? What say you, Darrel (@dw1305)? Mikrogeophagus must be a clue?

JPC


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## Richard40 (17 Jun 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> What is 'Band'?
> 
> JPC


It’s an app used to buy and sell fish or shrimp or anything aquatic. It was started up after fb put a stop to selling on its platform. It has regional groups for you to join, chat to people, post what you have for sale etc. I’ve bought amano shrimp, crystal shrimp on there and sold some nerites.


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## dw1305 (17 Jun 2020)

Hi all,





jaypeecee said:


> Or, should I have said _benthic_ fish? What say you, Darrel (@dw1305)? Mikrogeophagus must be a clue?
> 
> JPC


Both.

Cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee (17 Jun 2020)

Richard40 said:


> It’s an app used to buy and sell fish or shrimp or anything aquatic. It was started up after fb put a stop to selling on its platform. It has regional groups for you to join, chat to people, post what you have for sale etc. I’ve bought amano shrimp, crystal shrimp on there and sold some nerites.



Hi @Richard40 

Many thanks for that. I'm not a FB user so that probably explains why I'd never heard of it. But, it does sound interesting.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (17 Jun 2020)

dw1305 said:


> Both.



Thanks, Darrel.

JPC


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## sparkyweasel (17 Jun 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> The GBRs will do their own thing.


They certainly will, just like a lot of other fish.
I've got shelves full of books telling me how fish _should _behave, but I haven't managed to teach the little buggers to read yet.


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## Nick72 (18 Jun 2020)

Richard40 said:


> It’s an app used to buy and sell fish or shrimp or anything aquatic. It was started up after fb put a stop to selling on its platform. It has regional groups for you to join, chat to people, post what you have for sale etc. I’ve bought amano shrimp, crystal shrimp on there and sold some nerites.



Couldn't find it on Malaysian AppStore


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen (18 Jun 2020)

It sounds like the CO₂ issue is largely resolved, but for future reference it’s always a good idea to turn your CO₂ off completely prior to adding new fish and leave it off for the rest of the day. And of course you’ll be keeping your lights low as well. Your new fish will probably acclimatise to your normal level of CO₂ but to start with they’re probably not accustomed to any CO₂ at the shop they’ve come from. So increase CO₂ and lighting gradually over a few days.

Also it’s worth noting that if your fish are gasping at the surface, an immediate 50% water change would by my first action. This will probably resolve the issue within minutes, then aeration with an air stone will continue the improvement.


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## dw1305 (18 Jun 2020)

Hi all, 





Richard40 said:


> Only time will tell, they are the only fish in there for a couple of weeks so I’ll keep my eye on them.


I'm interested in how this goes as well. I should have said that Rams are great fish and one of my all time favorites. 

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee (18 Jun 2020)

sparkyweasel said:


> I've got shelves full of books telling me how fish _should _behave, but I haven't managed to teach the little buggers to read yet.



Hi @sparkyweasel 

That's brilliant! Gave me such a good laugh.   I know someone who is a cartoonist. I'll ask him if he could draw a cartoon depicting a fishkeeper trying to teach his/her fish to read. He's a long-standing member of my local fish club - so he'll like the idea. I'll try to contact him - but don't hold your breath as this could take a while!

JPC


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## jaypeecee (18 Jun 2020)

Dr Mike Oxgreen said:


> It sounds like the CO₂ issue is largely resolved, but for future reference it’s always a good idea to turn your CO₂ off completely prior to adding new fish and leave it off for the rest of the day. And of course you’ll be keeping your lights low as well. Your new fish will probably acclimatise to your normal level of CO₂ but to start with they’re probably not accustomed to any CO₂ at the shop they’ve come from. So increase CO₂ and lighting gradually over a few days.



Good advice.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (18 Jun 2020)

Richard40 said:


> I found that with my tank I needed a high bubble rate to get my drop checker to turn lime green at lights on...



Hi @Richard40 

I've just been looking at your tank layout. Although I can see your DC on the rear glass panel at the RHS, I can't see your CO2 injector. Is it an inline injector? Also, good flow is necessary with CO2 as it diffuses through water at an unacceptably-slow rate. If all your plants are swaying gently, that's a good sign. This is also _very_ important if the DC is going to give a reliable indication of dissolved CO2. And, whilst the DC is an elegantly-simple design, it is inherently slow to respond to changes in CO2 concentration. We're talking an hour or more in some cases.

JPC


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## Richard40 (18 Jun 2020)

Yes it’s the CO2 art in-line injector. I’ve turned it down this morning and the lighting, so keeping an eye on the tank each hour.


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## Ghettofarmulous (18 Jun 2020)

My Co2 art drop checked takes a few hours to come up to colour. on 2 hours before lights. My ph profile is stable so I know it takes about three hours for drop checker to come up to speed. I spent best part of 2 weeks getting injection right. Make one small increase on the morning and leave it all day. Make change next day if necessary. Again, high injection and high surface agitation for me is working fantastic. Mitigates against sudden Co2 increase for whatever reason.
Nice tank!


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## hypnogogia (18 Jun 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> I'll ask him if he could draw a cartoon depicting a fishkeeper trying to teach his/her fish to read.


Is that a bit like teaching ravens to fly underwater?


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## jaypeecee (18 Jun 2020)

Ghettofarmulous said:


> My ph profile is stable so I know it takes about three hours for drop checker to come up to speed.



Hi @Ghettofarmulous & Everyone,

For anyone who owns a pH meter, it is a simple matter to convert this into an electronic version of the humble DC. It will respond within 10 minutes and settles in about 30 minutes. Just let me know and I'll be happy to explain how this can be achieved.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (19 Jun 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> For anyone who owns a pH meter, it is a simple matter to convert this into an electronic version of the humble DC.



I should have stated what may be obvious and that is - it's a way of measuring CO2.

JPC


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## Driftless (5 Jul 2020)

I like GBR's and have three, one to be removed as the others have paired off, in a 40 gallon breeder, and more in my larger Discus tank.  I had a recent CO2 failure and all of the fish in the 40 were gasping at the surface.  Turning the Twinstar Nano on and off repeatedly, and turning off the CO2, had the fish still is in distress but not gasping at the surface within 5 minutes or so.  FWIW - I don't rely on my drop checkers on tanks that have discus and GBR's but instead regularly count bubbles which is the opposite of what I do with aquascaped tanks.  Good luck with your aquarium.


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