# A Guide To Crystal Red Shrimp



## Dincho

I have a bit of time on my hands this afternoon so thought i would do a little guide to CRS. I have seen and read many posts about people wanting to keep them so thought i would share some basics and things i have learnt during my shrimp keeping years. I am hoping anyone else who keeps them will add to this thread as I'm sure I'll miss a few things.

*Understanding The Shrimp*
Crystal red shrimp(CRS) are a colour morph of the wild black and white bee shrimp. A Japanese breeder found a red coloured shrimp amongst his bee shrimp colony and set about creating a red variant of the bee shrimp. This single red shrimp was repeatedly bred with and back crossed to create a stable red variety of the bee shrimp that we now see today. It is said that the CRS shrimp strain was created from only 3 shrimp, making it extremely inbred and sensitive. Due to its sensitivity its extremely important to get your water parameters right and keep them stable.

*Water Parameters*
*PH:*CRS prefer acidic water so a ph below 7 is important. There have been cases where CRS have been kept with a higher ph but lifespan, health and breeding are severely diminished. Ideally a ph reading of 6.0-6.8 is needed, the lower the better. With a low ph the free ammonia in the water is also much lower, again improving living conditions. *GH:* You need to be aiming for a GH reading of 4-6, this is to help with molting. The GH reading basically consists of the calcium and magnesium content in the water, both essential for shrimp to molt, breed and grow. Its always best to use RO water with CRS as you are able to add back to the water what you want, without nasty surprises coming from the tap water. *KH:* Most breeders aim for a kh of 0. In the wild shrimp often molt and breed after a heavy rainfall, keeping your kh at 0 imitates the rain and encourages constant breeding. *TDS:* TDS (total dissolved solids) levels should ideally be kept between 100-150. If you get your gh readings right using RO water then this is usually simple to achieve. *Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate:* Like fish keeping, ammonia and nitrite levels should be 0 as standard. Nitrate in a shrimp tank also needs to be 0 or as close to it as possible. High nitrate levels lower the immune system of the shrimp making them very susceptible to bacterial infections, probably the biggest cause of shrimp deaths. *Oxygen:* Something that is often over looked is a simple air stone, from experience and experiments i have done i find high oxygen levels are essential! shrimp look, act, breed and feed better in a tank with good oxygen levels. *Temp:* Try to aim for a temperature between 21-23, a temp of 21c may result in a stronger colour to the shrimp, 23c helps eggs hatch a few days sooner. Try not to let the temperature fluctuate, pick a temperature and keep it.

*Feeding*
Personally i think our shrimp are over fed. In the shrimps natural habitat they feed off the leaves and biofilm they have available to them, they thrive on next to nothing. I used to feed my shrimp daily when i first started but i had a constant struggle with nitrate levels. Now i rely on bacterial based shrimp foods that help build a good biofilm, accompanied by 'black water' products that contain tannins and a good amount of fresh leaves such as spinach and stinging nettles. I always keep a couple cattapa leaves in every shrimp tank as standard, biofilm builds quickly on them, they release tannins and they have natural healing abilities. Packet shrimp food is great for a varied diet but feeding them once or twice a week from the packet is all that is needed.

Some of the above may seem a little daunting but its really not, if the aquarium is set up the right way from the beginning then keeping CRS is really simple. Thanks to their growing popularity there are many products designed solely for CRS. Shrimp substrates are brilliant, they buffer the water to near perfection, your only thing to worry about when using these is to get your GH and TDS readings right. RO water should be considered essential for CRS, again there are many products to help re-mineralise the water with the goodness needed. I think i have waffled enough now but hopefully other people can chip in with things i have not covered.

*Breeding*
Breeding CRS is as easy as breeding cherry shrimp once you have your water right. As mentioned above you should be aiming for a kh of 0 to encourage reproduction, its equally important for the water parameters to be stable and consistent. Sexing shrimp is also easy once you know what to look for, the females have a much rounder underbelly where as the males underside is less curved. The males also have longer atennules (the shorter pair of antennae). When a female reaches sexual maturity you will see what looks like a yellow saddle appear on her back, these are unfertilised eggs, the saddle can be harder to spot with strong coloured shrimp. Providing you have a mature male in the tank a mating takes place after the female molts and the body is much softer, after a couple days you will see the eggs move down to her abdomen where she will keep them moving using the pleopods (the mini legs on her belly). You can expect these eggs to hatch in around 4 weeks time.






*Bacterial Infections*
Bacterial infections are probably the biggest cause of unexplained shrimp deaths in the aquarium, they are much more wide spread than first thought. Due to the sensitivity of CRS their immune system is easily weakened letting bacterial infections run riot. A weakened immune system can be caused by many things but i'll try and cover the basics. High nitrate levels are an obvious cause, people new to shrimp do not realise nitrate levels acceptable in fish tanks are not acceptable to shrimp. Adding new shrimp to existing colonies is also risky unless quarantined, different shrimp from different aquariums have different fauna and tolerance to different bacteria. The shipping of new shrimp can also stress them out leaving them with a weakened immune system. *Treatment:* From my experience the best treatment for bacterial infections are pussy willow bark and beta glucan. Pussy willow bark should only be used short term, it has natural antibiotic qualities that can also start killing the good bacteria if left in the aquarium for more than 2-3days. Beta glucan has been scientifically proven to improve the immune system of shrimp. There are more and more shrimp products that contain beta glucan, dosing regulary can help fight outbreaks before they occur. 
Here are 2 great links that explain bacterial infections in depth and list possible causes and symptoms: 
http://www.crustahunter.com/en/node/894
http://www.garnelenblog.de/diagnoseliste/

*Crystal Red Shrimp Grading*





@ Admin/Moderator: Permission to post these images has been granted, proof available if required.


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## Antoni

Great info, thanks for sharing!  

Some more info about grading and additives will be great.


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## Gill

Def, agree with using Catappa Leaves, they get nice and slimy and provide loads of food.
IME they also go Nuts for Hikari Carnivore/Massivore Pellets.


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## Sentral

Great guide! I also think it'd be great if you could share some images of your set up and products that you reccomend and uk suppliers


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## George Farmer

Nice little article, thanks.

I will seek some advice as to whether it's worth pinning.

Thanks again,
George


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## Dincho

I'll keep adding to it.


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## Aquadream

Dincho said:
			
		

> I'll keep adding to it.


Great article.
I have many CRS and they have been breeding like crazy. Occasionally some of them loose the white colour then it comes back. Do you have any idea why this is happening?


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## Dincho

Aquadream said:
			
		

> Dincho said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll keep adding to it.
> 
> 
> 
> Great article.
> I have many CRS and they have been breeding like crazy. Occasionally some of them loose the white colour then it comes back. Do you have any idea why this is happening?
Click to expand...


Usually loss of colour is either an infection, old age, poor water conditions or if they have just molted? If the colour is coming back it would suggest either poor water conditions or a molt. Are there any ghost shells about when you notice it? does a water changes trigger colour improvement?


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## Aquadream

Dincho said:
			
		

> Aquadream said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dincho said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll keep adding to it.
> 
> 
> 
> Great article.
> I have many CRS and they have been breeding like crazy. Occasionally some of them loose the white colour then it comes back. Do you have any idea why this is happening?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Usually loss of colour is either an infection, old age, poor water conditions or if they have just molted? If the colour is coming back it would suggest either poor water conditions or a molt. Are there any ghost shells about when you notice it? does a water changes trigger colour improvement?
Click to expand...

I keep the water as close to perfect as possible, by monitoring all parameters with professional tests and professional electornic probe that can measure Cond., Sal., TDS., PH and Temp. All of the gear is quite expensive laboratory stuff.
I noticed that the shrimp seem to display better colour later in the day.
And by the way I have more than 95% survival rate on the babies, but the colours are not as I would hope them to be. Nothing like your shrimp shows for example.
The colour change is on all age, not just to the old ones.
Moulting is flawless.
I would not say that water change triggers much of a colour improvement. Some of the shrimp would seem better after water change, but others don't.
I wonder if I overfeed them or under feed them.
Also how good the Shirakura foods are, because that is all I can get in Bulgaria.


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## Dincho

Zdrasti 

Where abouts in Bulgaria are you? I lived in BG for 4 years, are you English?

If all you can get is shirakura then you are better off feeding boiled spinach or stinging nettles. Its pretty hard to under feed shrimp, as long as you have some plants or moss then they will live off the biofilm building up on them. What is the lighting like in your shrimp tank? I have a tank with poor lighting and shrimp always start the day with poor colouring and get brighter as the day goes on. I have a tank that has extremely high lighting and the shrimp seem to keep their strong colours even after lights off. You say molting is flawless, what about the shrimp colour after a molt? They become much softer and weaker in colour while they wait for their shell to thicken up, you could try feeding a food high in protein and calcium, this thickens the shell and makes them much brighter.


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## Quetzalcoatl

Thanks Dincho.

I was just about to return to my thread about CRS to ask you some more questions but then saw this excellent, informative thread   Thanks for taking the time to write it.

You state that Nitrate levels should be kept at Zero. Does this make keeping CRS in a high tech planted tank a No-No then?


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## Aquadream

Dincho said:
			
		

> Zdrasti
> 
> Where abouts in Bulgaria are you? I lived in BG for 4 years, are you English?
> 
> If all you can get is shirakura then you are better off feeding boiled spinach or stinging nettles. Its pretty hard to under feed shrimp, as long as you have some plants or moss then they will live off the biofilm building up on them. What is the lighting like in your shrimp tank? I have a tank with poor lighting and shrimp always start the day with poor colouring and get brighter as the day goes on. I have a tank that has extremely high lighting and the shrimp seem to keep their strong colours even after lights off. You say molting is flawless, what about the shrimp colour after a molt? They become much softer and weaker in colour while they wait for their shell to thicken up, you could try feeding a food high in protein and calcium, this thickens the shell and makes them much brighter.



I am not English. I am Bulgarian and I live in Ruse. It is on the BG-Romanian border.
I lived for about 8 years in the UK.

The light in my CRS tank is 18W T8 6500K Arcadia over 25 litres of illuminated volume. It is not strong, but not low either.
The shrimp colour after molt seems good at least on those that have the colour to begin with.
I tried to feed the shrimp some fish food and discovered that TetraPhyll fish food helps for the colour of CRS.

I wonder something else.
What GH booster do you use and what parameters that booster is providing? I established that if Ca++ and Mg++ are let say in proportion 3:1 and the GH is 6 then the TDS never gets lower then 175ppm.
You say that the TDS should be around 100-150ppm. That would suggest the Ca++ and Mg++ to be at a ratio 2:1 or even lower. That is one water parameter that no one talks about, but I have the hunch that it is the key to low TDS, Cond. etc and sufficient GH.


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## jimmy james

Excellent article. A must read for anyone looking to keep these fantastic shrimp.  I find a temperature of 23 degrees celcius preferable in my tanks.


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## Dincho

Quetzalcoatl said:
			
		

> Thanks Dincho.
> 
> I was just about to return to my thread about CRS to ask you some more questions but then saw this excellent, informative thread   Thanks for taking the time to write it.
> 
> You state that Nitrate levels should be kept at Zero. Does this make keeping CRS in a high tech planted tank a No-No then?



To be honest, i have no idea! I don't really keep high tech planted tanks, mine are all full of moss. The most adventurous i have ever been is by adding some Ludwigia glandulosa    I'm sure someone on here has CRS in a heavily planted tank though?




			
				Aquadream said:
			
		

> I am not English. I am Bulgarian and I live in Ruse. It is on the BG-Romanian border.
> I lived for about 8 years in the UK.
> 
> The light in my CRS tank is 18W T8 6500K Arcadia over 25 litres of illuminated volume. It is not strong, but not low either.
> The shrimp colour after molt seems good at least on those that have the colour to begin with.
> I tried to feed the shrimp some fish food and discovered that TetraPhyll fish food helps for the colour of CRS.
> 
> I wonder something else.
> What GH booster do you use and what parameters that booster is providing? I established that if Ca++ and Mg++ are let say in proportion 3:1 and the GH is 6 then the TDS never gets lower then 175ppm.
> You say that the TDS should be around 100-150ppm. That would suggest the Ca++ and Mg++ to be at a ratio 2:1 or even lower. That is one water parameter that no one talks about, but I have the hunch that it is the key to low TDS, Cond. etc and sufficient GH.



I know Ruse well, i was living in Veliko Turnovo.

Like you i used to mix my own re-mineralising 'powder', the problem i had was finding the balance between TDS and GH, mixing the same ratio each water change would not necessarily provide the same results each time. Now i use packet minerals and i seem to have much better results. Another difference is i add all the minerals under the substrate when setting up a new tank, instead of with each water change. I still need to add a little after water changes but nothing major, just a little booster.

I still don't think the colour loss in your shrimp is something serious, if the colour is returning then it can't be that bad. 10k lighting is 'suggested' for shrimp, if your shrimp start the day dull and brighten up over lights on hours then it may be something worth looking at?



			
				jimmy james said:
			
		

> Excellent article. A must read for anyone looking to keep these fantastic shrimp.  I find a temperature of 23 degrees celcius preferable in my tanks.



Well spotted  I added recommended temperature. Cheers Jimmy



			
				jimmy james said:
			
		

> Excellent article. A must read for anyone looking to keep these fantastic shrimp.  I find a temperature of 23 degrees celcius preferable in my tanks.



Working on it.


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## Dincho

Grading guide added. Anyone think of anything else that needs to be added?


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## basil

Dincho said:
			
		

> Grading guide added. Anyone think of anything else that needs to be added?



How about the effects of perfume on CRS??!!


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## billy boy

What minerals would you suggest to put under the substrate?

Just that I'm about to set up a crs tank and have some mosura bt-9 and mosura some old sea mud, What else would you recommend to put  under the substrate?

BTW, The substrate I will be using is Colombo Flora Base.

Cheers


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## Dincho

basil said:
			
		

> Dincho said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Grading guide added. Anyone think of anything else that needs to be added?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How about the effects of perfume on CRS??!!
Click to expand...


 Still a touchy subject    I guess that's pay back for the Crewe comment   



			
				billy boy said:
			
		

> What minerals would you suggest to put under the substrate?
> 
> Just that I'm about to set up a crs tank and have some mosura bt-9 and mosura some old sea mud, What else would you recommend to put  under the substrate?
> 
> BTW, The substrate I will be using is Colombo Flora Base.
> 
> Cheers



Mosura will do. Add the old sea mud on the base of the aquarium then add a layer of substrate, now sprinkle the BT-9 over the substrate then add a thick layer of substrate on top. The problem with mosura is they don't contain as much as some other brands so you might also want to get Mineral plus and rich water too. Have a look here about setting up a shrimp tank, just use your Mosura products instead on Benibachi: http://www.shrimpkeeping.com/basics.html


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## billy boy

billy boy said:
			
		

> What minerals would you suggest to put under the substrate?
> 
> Just that I'm about to set up a crs tank and have some mosura bt-9 and mosura some old sea mud, What else would you recommend to put  under the substrate?
> 
> BTW, The substrate I will be using is Colombo Flora Base.
> 
> Cheers



Mosura will do. Add the old sea mud on the base of the aquarium then add a layer of substrate, now sprinkle the BT-9 over the substrate then add a thick layer of substrate on top. The problem with mosura is they don't contain as much as some other brands so you might also want to get Mineral plus and rich water too. Have a look here about setting up a shrimp tank, just use your Mosura products instead on Benibachi: http://www.shrimpkeeping.com/basics.html[/quote]



Cheers Dincho    I have some mineral plus, Couldn't get any rich water in this country but got some mosura  bioplus hopefully that should help things along, Will also be using a fully mature external filter.

Cheers


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## toaster

Great guide thanks a lot. What substrate would you recommend? I've read people using ADA aquasoil but then I also found this website, http://www.shrimpkeeping.com/substrate.html, but it's hard to find the items it suggests.


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## George Farmer

Pinned.


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## logi-cat

brilliant guide, thanks


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## rudirudi

I am planning a Discus tank which will be kept at 28c would this be too hot to keep CRS?

Regards
rudi


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## George Farmer

rudirudi said:
			
		

> I am planning a Discus tank which will be kept at 28c would this be too hot to keep CRS?
> 
> Regards
> rudi


Probably, but I'd be more worried about them becoming an expensive snack too.


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## Getthejist

I am part of a shrimp forum and several people on there keep there crs at 28 degrees and they're SSS grade and they do fine but I'd also reckon in a discus tank your shrimp will be eaten as discus eat a lot of things shrimp and small fish included


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## AAB

Excellent Article, thank you.


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## hobbyshrimp

Great article so much information in one post is difficult to find Thanks


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## Richardblack5

Brilliant article, many thanks. My son has CRS and we have leant a lot from your info.


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## foxfish

Yeah, a good thread, it was reading this that encouraged me to start keeping CRS.


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## basil

Also posted under inverts......but something for us all to aspire to here:-


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## curefan

basil said:
			
		

> Also posted under inverts......but something for us all to aspire to here:-





Where was that video footage taken?????


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## basil

I think it's Japan at the/one of the Benibachi breeding sites. They specialise in PRL and also have a UK site:-

http://www.benibachi.co.uk/catalog/benibachi_shrimp/


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## Crystal Red

Many thanks for taking the time to post this great article Dincho - Its always good to read up on these amazing little creatures.

Best wishes,

Murray


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## Victor

Dincho said:


> TDS: TDS (total dissolved solids) levels should ideally be kept between 100-150.


My TDS is at 400. Can I adapt any shrimp at this TDS level?


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## ourmanflint

Thanks for this, I might to tempted to have a go at shrimps.


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## Bassljne

Victor said:


> My TDS is at 400. Can I adapt any shrimp at this TDS level?


I think neo's can survive at that tds (cherry, rilli)


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## Planted Bows

This is the best guide out there!! Exactly what I needed 

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk


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## JMorgan

I've heard elsewhere of CRS keepers saying their nitrates are kept as close to zero as possible - just wondering how this fits with growing plants? Presumably you don't add any regular ferts to the water column? What about root tabs?
Thanks for the interesting article. I don't plan of keeping CRS just now but always interested to learn more.


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## Finn

JMorgan said:


> I've heard elsewhere of CRS keepers saying their nitrates are kept as close to zero as possible - just wondering how this fits with growing plants? Presumably you don't add any regular ferts to the water column? What about root tabs?
> Thanks for the interesting article. I don't plan of keeping CRS just now but always interested to learn more.



Plants can grow, just very slowly from the waste produced from the livestock. Shrimp keepers tend to use quite low lighting too so they can keep their tanks plodding away as low techs.

 People give lots of reasons as to why they avoid nitrates/micros/oxygen/brain activity but I feel that it's important to say that shrimp aren't affected adversely by fertilising, you have to understand that culturally there's a lot of bogeymen for shrimp keepers and ferts are one of them, with co2 being another. It comes with the pain of being completely unable to conclusively identify why your shrimp die (and they die a lot), so you make up reasons instead. Just look at the growing industry of snake oil bullshit aimed directly at shrimp keeping. Some people's shrimp are better fed than me! 

Coming back to ferts though, in my experience, it's largely an unfounded fear. CRS and other caridina shrimp (save for the sulawesi shrimp perhaps - no experience with them myself) are perfectly fine with EI nitrate levels, and will happily breed so long as water quality (TDS, ammonia) stays consistent. The tricky part of fertilising with CRS is maintaining this consistency while also being lazy and doing the typical 10% fortnightly water changes with occasional RO top-ups, which is the standard procedure with CRS tanks because you can happily get away with it (while also saving yourself some pennies with the salty shrimp stuff). 

So while lots of shrimp keepers could easily dose ferts and co2 and just do larger water changes more frequently (and buy more salty shrimp GH+!) I think a lot prefer to tell themselves that it's too risky just to stay comfortable! Which would be perfectly fine if they admitted it and didn't get on the Internet and spread misinformation about how harmful ferts can be, (which if it's not nitrates it's bloody copper) as it invariably turns novices completely off of fertilising properly for fear of murdering their livestock and thus find their new lovingly aquascaped tanks with the latest hypernuke Led 9000 light system melting all their plants with no recourse available. 

Indeed, as mentioned earlier there are now lots of shrimp keeping brands realising this and coming out with their own "Shrimp safe" ferts which should alleviate some fears of dosing in the hobby, but unfortunately at a significant premium for nothing but peace of mind. Still, as long as when one of their shrimp inevitably dies for no discernable reason they don't automatically go onto a forum and blame ferts, that's progress. Can't blame any one but the shrimp keepers and their silly myths though! 

Cheers!


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## JMorgan

Thanks for the detailed reply Finn. I suspected as much, but having no direct experience with CRS didn't want to assume anything. In fact when I read the intro, I thought Aha! crystal red shrimp, super inbred type with extremely limited gene pool and near to useless immune system . . .  maybe this is the grain of truth in the nitrates myth?
Hence my question 

What's intriguing is that while one hobbyist can be worldly wise to many forms of 'snake oil bullshit', the very same person can easily be unwittingly selling snake oil themselves if only in the form of spreading misinformation out of a sincere desire to help others. I'm pretty sure I've been guilty of this myself in years past. In normal circs just one to one this doesn't have a huge impact I don't imagine, but when such a person is blithering about nitrates on YouTube to an audience counted in thousands or even tens of thousands of hobbyists, its amazing how quickly total blahblahblahblahblahblahblahs becomes incontrovertible "scientific" fact.

I remember reading somewhere on UKAPS about people remineralising RO using standard EI ferts compounds. I think this was aimed at creating a pretty soft water environment that would also sustain decent plant growth, but I'm a bit foggy on the details and I can't find the reference just now. I imagine it might well avoid spending a small fortune on shrimp specific remineralisation products and combine getting the right TDS range for various shrimp types, with keeping plants happy.  

When I have time I'll look into it more as I quite fancy keeping CRS at some point. Right now sadly, they'd just be snacks.


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## Finn

JMorgan said:


> Thanks for the detailed reply Finn. I suspected as much, but having no direct experience with CRS didn't want to assume anything. In fact when I read the intro, I thought Aha! crystal red shrimp, super inbred type with extremely limited gene pool and near to useless immune system . . .  maybe this is the grain of truth in the nitrates myth?
> Hence my question



I think the idea that all of CRS fragility is linked to their breeding is becoming a lot less relevant. Maybe 10 years ago imported livestock wasn't so great, but I think they've improved dramatically. I believed it big time when I first started keeping them, because all I had was online articles that were essentially parroting information from each other. I was petrified of losing my shrimp, constantly second-guessing myself and sweating small stuff. Needless to say, it's the tinkering about that shrimp don't like much - and ironically that's the natural inclination of the novice - only to reaffirm myths of difficulty. 



JMorgan said:


> What's intriguing is that while one hobbyist can be worldly wise to many forms of 'snake oil bullshit', the very same person can easily be unwittingly selling snake oil themselves if only in the form of spreading misinformation out of a sincere desire to help others. I'm pretty sure I've been guilty of this myself in years past. In normal circs just one to one this doesn't have a huge impact I don't imagine, but when such a person is blithering about nitrates on YouTube to an audience counted in thousands or even tens of thousands of hobbyists, its amazing how quickly total blahblahblahblahblahblahblahs becomes incontrovertible "scientific" Fact.



Oh definitely, and you're not alone - I find myself cringing far too often of memories of my own proclaimed "facts" quickly mooted by new experiences in breath taking speed! I think the big problem with "getting shrimp right" is that after just a few generations everyone's shrimp will be slightly different, able to tolerate different things as they adapt to different care styles. That in many ways is the beauty of the species, but also often leads to more ambiguity than useful facts when lots of people get together and try to share their experiences. 

What I've found is that shrimp are just like any thing else - they can adapt to a range of conditions as long as they are kept consistent. Their quick generational cycles mean that they can compensate for poor breeding or previous tolerances and return to parity as long as a few manage to stick it out - not fun viewing for budding breeders but in the end you get healthier livestock that you don't have to bend over backwards to accommodate. 



JMorgan said:


> I remember reading somewhere on UKAPS about people remineralising RO using standard EI ferts compounds. I think this was aimed at creating a pretty soft water environment that would also sustain decent plant growth, but I'm a bit foggy on the details and I can't find the reference just now. I imagine it might well avoid spending a small fortune on shrimp specific remineralisation products and combine getting the right TDS range for various shrimp types, with keeping plants happy.
> 
> When I have time I'll look into it more as I quite fancy keeping CRS at some point. Right now sadly, they'd just be snacks.


 

As far as some shrimp products go, I must admit that salty shrimp remineralising stuff is actually pretty good (though I can' help complaining as I'm a terrible penny pinching miser), frankly because it's convenient and TDS is one of the few things it's best to do well (though I'm sure EI salts can do the job fine) but for the rest of shrimpy paraphernalia, my cynicism was formed from cold hard experience after falling for the snake oil big time myself. I naturally wanted guaranteed success when I started so have sampled many of the the various foods, dusts and potions available. I'm now pretty confident when I say that the only important thing is consistency and patience! Sochting oxydators, beta-glucans and immunoglobins, specialist foods and humic acid additives - I've been there and they're all about as useful as a fart in a jam jar! My 'fanciest' shrimp are taitibee hybrids and they've been fed on aquarian tropical flake and old leaves I've found for over a year now to excellent success. No silly blahblahblahblahblahblahblahs, just standard low tech care regime. My pure red line CRS culls are in an EI dosed CO2 tank and are perfectly happy as well.   

I guess what I'm trying to say is that when you do try some CRS yourself just remember that there's more than one way to skin a cat!


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## Victor

I still don't understand some things. There is any problem to perform 50% wc at once in crystal red shrimp tank? And what happens If I keep the TDS between 300 and 400? They can adapt well to this hardness level? The TDS is that high due EI regime. And one last question, based in former replies, CRS can tolerate nitrates very well, ins't it? My tank can accumulate until 40 ppm if the plants don't uptake nothing. Please, share your experiences.


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## Finn

A 50% weekly water change will be fine on it's own, but a high TDS will likely mean they won't breed and may have shedding issues (kind of in same manner that Cherry shrimp get shedding issues at lower TDS, only reversed). That would be my main concern. Are you using RO water currently? If not then try remineralising RO to 140 TDS and using that in your tank, while maintaining your EI regimen and monitor your TDS rise over the course of a month, if anything, then just to see if you're experiencing a nutrient creep. If you can keep your TDS between 140 and 250 within a week with RO water, I would say it's fine for shrimp. They'll get used to the fluctuations as long as they're regular.

To be honest, I think TDS as a measure of water quality for shrimp kind of falls apart with EI dosing as KH (which is what you generally don't want with CRS) can remain entirely stable despite the other nutrients increasing conductivity, essentially makes a red herring for yourself. A lot of what raises conductivity in your EI salts aren't going to cause your shrimp any bother at all, including the nitrates, but the magnesium can start your GH to creep if you're not careful. I guess the simplest way to find out whether your set up can work is to wave off some brave pioneering shrimp in to test the waters themselves, but I would definitely look at using some remineralised RO water first, and possibly monitor GH and KH instead of TDS until you're confident that what you're doing is resetting your tank reliably after every water change - which is the most important thing.


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## Victor

Thank you for your reply. My tap water is pretty soft, about TDS 60. I dose weekly, 21,3 g of MgSO4.1/7H2O (magnesium sulfate heptahydrate), 9,8 g of KNO3, 10 g of CaSO4.1/2H2O (calcium saulfate hemihydrate) and 0,86 g of KH2PO4 in my 300 L tank. All them pre-mixed in a solution. This yields 20 ppm of nitrate, 7 ppm Mg, 2 ppm PO4, 10 ppm Ca and increase the dGH in 1,6 as "rotala butterfly calculator" indicates. So my high TDS is due this ferts salts. Do you think I'm dosing too much Mg and Ca? Today my TDS is 309, still too high to CRS breeding, isn't it?


----------



## Finn

Yeah it is quite high, perhaps you might be able to reduce your Mg and Ca dosing slightly, personally I don't use any Calcium in my EI mixes, even for the aquariums where I use remineralised RO, but my lights are low and my CO2 is gentle (1bps for a 60L). Thinking about it, that could be the secret -  you could try reducing lights while dosing 3/4 EI to see if that gives you a more even TDS reading, and then perhaps try removing Ca from your fert mix altogether and see whether you begin to get deficiency in your plants. If not, then you're golden, but if you do then you can just go back to dosing your standard formula and then tone down the Ca until you reach the tolerance point. Just some ideas though.


----------



## Victor

Alright. OK, it's easy to remove the Ca completely, I was just taking some powder (CaSO4+1/2H2O), putting it in a cup of water and than throwing the content into the tank. My tank is high tech and I use high light. I'm sure I can keep the TDS at 200 or less If I perform a 70 % wc per week at once. But it seems too much, no? I'm afraid to kill the future CRS with a sudden change in water parameters. Oh, my dKh tank water is less than 1 I've measured with two different test kits. But the dgh I don't know to inform, my gh test kit is very inaccurate.


----------



## Finn

Victor said:


> Alright. OK, it's easy to remove the Ca completely, I was just taking some powder (CaSO4+1/2H2O), putting it in a cup of water and than throwing the content into the tank. My tank is high tech and I use high light. I'm sure I can keep the TDS at 200 or less If I perform a 70 % wc per week at once. But it seems too much, no? I'm afraid to kill the future CRS with a sudden change in water parameters. Oh, my dKh tank water is less than 1 I've measured with two different test kits. But the dgh I don't know to inform, my gh test kit is very inaccurate.


Haha I know what you mean about not wanting to kill your shrimp but if you want to keep shrimp, you have to be prepared to lose them too! 

 I agree that 70% is a lot but if you're talking about a 300 litre tank then that increased volume is going to smooth the ride a little. If you want to stick with the high light, cut down the Ca/Mg and try big water changes to see if you can get CRS to breed then I think you should go for it mate. It's a risk sure, but all that can happen is that you go back to the drawing board. 

Ultimately shrimp are weird. There are people that meticulously set up a new tank for CRS following guides to the letter and still manage to have their shrimp die on them, despite doing everything right. Then there are people who blithely disregard everything written on the matter and manage to have very successful breeding colonies. It's not fair and certainly not quantifiable, so the best thing you can do is to have a go.


----------



## JMorgan

I've just come across an article on CRS keeping in a back issue of Amazonas magazine March/April 2012. The article is by Kurt Mack and has some excellent tips. For example using daphnia as "guinea pigs" to test that wood and plants are safe and insecticide free before introducing them to a shrimp tank. He describes how a friend's entire shrimp colony was killed off by him stroking a dog that had been dosed with a flea treatment a few days previously - which made me think about how many otherwise mysterious shrimp deaths might have a similar cause. I also appreciated his comments on over-feeding as another major cause of problems. Definitely worth a read and if you don't have a subscription then its the right time of year to start dropping hints


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





JMorgan said:


> I've just come across an article on CRS keeping in a back issue of Amazonas magazine March/April 2012. The article is by Kurt Mack and has some excellent tips. For example using daphnia as "guinea pigs" to test that wood and plants are safe and insecticide free before introducing them to a shrimp tank.


I use the same method (<"_Daphnia_ bioassay">) to make sure that the rain-water for water changes is OK. I'd also add some <"structural leaf litter">, it acts as a browsing surface for the shrimps, and the humic and fulvic compounds produced complex any heavy metals, that may have become soluble at lower pH values.  





Victor said:


> My tap water is pretty soft, about TDS 60. I dose weekly, 21,3 g of MgSO4.1/7H2O (magnesium sulfate heptahydrate), 9,8 g of KNO3, 10 g of CaSO4.1/2H2O (calcium saulfate hemihydrate) and 0,86 g of KH2PO4 in my 300 L tank. All them pre-mixed in a solution. This yields 20 ppm of nitrate, 7 ppm Mg, 2 ppm PO4, 10 ppm Ca and increase the dGH in 1,6 as "rotala butterfly calculator" indicates. So my high TDS is due this ferts salts. Do you think I'm dosing too much Mg and Ca? Today my TDS is 309, still too high to CRS breeding,


Soft water is really useful as a starting place, I'd try halving the calcium and magnesium addition. 

You could use the TDS meter to get a balance between fertiliser addition and water quality. Do a 50% water change and then add enough of your pre-mixed fertiliser to bring the TDS to ~150ppm before the next water change. It might take a few water changes before you get down to 150ppm TDS. Record your initial TDS after the water change and how much solution you've added. 

Once you are at a fairly consistent 150ppm you will know roughly how much fertiliser solution to add, but this will vary dependent upon plant mass. 

If plant health suffers you will have to decide between low TDS and plant growth. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## zozo

dw1305 said:


> I use the same method (<"_Daphnia_ bioassay">) to make sure that the rain-water for water changes is OK. I'd also add some <"structural leaf litter">, it acts as a browsing surface *for the shrimps*, and the humic and fulvic compounds produced complex any heavy metals, that may have become soluble at lower pH values.



Darrel do you mean Daphnia or shrimps with "browsing the leaflitter surface"? I was wondering is it a typo? If so that would mean leafliitter is enough to keep daphnia alive? I kinda strugle  a bit to keep daphnia culture alive sometimes and they just disapear after clearing all the food (i guess) but i never used leaflitter for daphnia.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





zozo said:


> Darrel do you mean Daphnia or shrimps with "browsing the leaflitter surface"? I was wondering is it a typo? If so that would mean leafliitter is enough to keep daphnia alive? I kinda strugle  a bit to keep daphnia culture alive sometimes and they just disapear after clearing all the food (i guess) but i never used leaflitter for daphnia.


I meant for the shrimps, but I use leaf litter in the buckets I have for _Daphnia_. 

I used to have the same problems of "boom and bust" in my _Daphnia_ cultures, but I found an <"article on caudata.org"> that suggested that adding leaf litter made the cultures more stable. I don't actually have a tank culture of _Daphnia_ any more, I get a reasonable amount from the buckets and water butts, even in the winter, now that I have fewer fish.

cheers Darrel


----------



## zozo

Thanks for the explaination and link Darrel.. I'll give it a try and see how it goes.


----------



## Chuck Turtleman

If I may bump this, I have a few year's experience with Cardina shrimp and some thoughts. I should first say that I am FAR from an expert, let alone any "authority" on these, but I've had some strong colonies, and lost more than my share (of individual shrimp and whole colonies) as well.

My biggest takeaway is, these things _*hate* _to be moved. It's odd because they seem to ship pretty well, but many crash from either bacterial infections or the change in environment well after settling in to their new tanks. Several days and even weeks later, you may lose shrimp in a "perfect" tank they have been moved to. I suspect that some perish from simply having empty stomachs for several days during shipping, but have no way of proving that theory. Dead shrimp after the first week of purchase is not necessarily an indication that your parameters are bad, or even off a little from their ideal. It's just different and different makes them die. I always suggest buying juveniles, because they 1) tend to be less expensive, 2) seem to acclimate better, 3) will have a full life as a breeder if they survive. If you can just get a few gender pairs to survive to maturity in your tank, the shrimp will do the rest and you will not only have plenty, but the new generations will positively thrive in your water.

After that, I'd suggest that an RO/DI filter is darn near needed. I live in a place with pristine mountain water -it's soft and neutral and only about 40 PPM TDS. And guess what -I can't get new Cardina shrimp to acclimate to it for love or money. I use a 50/50 mix of tap and RO/DI for my tanks, but whenever I'm expecting a shipment, I pretty much get that tank water changed to the point that it's almost all remineralized RO water until I can get them used to mine. This works only because it is what most breeders (at least here in the US) do. I don't tend to use heaters, and my house can get quite cool. Breeding will absolutely slow down but I think the shrimp are hardier for it in the long run. Even tanks I heat to only 68 F (20C) don't seem to fare as well as the ones I allow to fluctuate (which is becoming all of them soon as the odd Ancistrus or so can be moved). I think the perfect shrimp tank in a perfect world is set up for many months_ without_ shrimp. Put a few danios or such in there, and get a good bacteria colony going. I'm not simply talking about cycled for a month for NH4, NO2 and such here; it's the maturation that an old tank has that provides the bulk of what these creatures eat. Can't stress that part enough. Leaf litter should go in right after substrate. Doesn't have to be catappa or anything fancy, I use more oak from my yard than anything. I also like to set out Rubbermaid bins with some leaves and let them sit in the sun a few days in warmer months to cover with algae and biofilm. Few foods exist that they flock to like aged sun leaves! I use two main foods, though I have a couple of dozen on hand that I've bought and am trying to use up. Outside of produce from my local grocer, I use Bacter AE (or Dennerle's Bio Tase Active -both seem very similar) for babies and flake food (usually plain ol' Omega One freshwater flakes) and Ebita's Quarto 2 for juveniles and adults for 99% of my supplemental feeding.

I do 20% water changes weekly with a 50/50 mix of dechlorinated tap (only because I have tap which I can do this with) and remineralized RO/DI on each tank. In some, I am growing prized plants (like Buce) and so lightly fertilize the new water. In tanks with tougher plants, I only add potassium. Always have clean hands and arms before putting them in your shrimp tank. I have lost whole colonies from putting my arms in tanks with lotion or sunscreen on. Fish tanks I had been in previously that should have gotten the brunt of poisoning were unaffected. CRS will let you know there is a toxin very quickly by all dying.

To finish up, I guess I would mostly want people to know that these aren't ideal for fish tanks. Frankly, they stink as a long term fish tank resident. If you don't want a shrimp tank, get Neos. If you want Cardina, set up a tank just for these amazing specimens. You may find ottos or micro danios thrive alongside them, but I feel like virtually all fish are either a predator at some life stage or a competing species. Hope this helps anyone interested in starting out with these awesome creatures!


----------



## Victor

Dincho said:


> *TDS:* TDS (total dissolved solids) levels should ideally be kept between 100-150


These TDS values are expressed in ppm or uS/cm?


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Thread Bump and a half
I have just started keeping the bog standard Red Cherry Shrimp. I started off with 10, now I've got about 70 odd, with more tiny one's appearing every week.

I have just moved them all into a planted Jewel Lido 200 litre tank yesterday. They seem to be loving it.

Is it okay to add a group of about 15 Ember Tetras in there with them?

Also is it possible to add any other kind of shrimp in there with them or should I stick with the one species? 

Thanks, and great thread.


----------



## LondonDragon

REDSTEVEO said:


> I have just started keeping the bog standard Red Cherry Shrimp.


Wrong type of shrimp for this thread  



REDSTEVEO said:


> Is it okay to add a group of about 15 Ember Tetras in there with them?


It's fine for adults, but if they get a taste for the babies they will eat them, as long there are plenty of hiding places some should survive.



REDSTEVEO said:


> Also is it possible to add any other kind of shrimp in there with them


Will be fine as long they are not also Neocaridina, otherwise they will interbreed and you will get natural colours (plain shrimp).


----------



## ForestDave

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, I meant for the shrimps, but I use leaf litter in the buckets I have for _Daphnia_.
> 
> I used to have the same problems of "boom and bust" in my _Daphnia_ cultures, but I found an <"article on caudata.org"> that suggested that adding leaf litter made the cultures more stable. I don't actually have a tank culture of _Daphnia_ any more, I get a reasonable amount from the buckets and water butts, even in the winter, now that I have fewer fish.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Hi Darrel.
Would you change or add anything to this guys daphnia system, I fancy giving daphnia breeding a go.
Thanks Dave


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## Kelvin12

I hope this post is still active......
What a brilliant well thought out article followed by great posts.  I am just venturing into these CRS for the first time after some while with neo's.
However I have a few water worries.  I am using RO with a mix of old used wood and plants together with AZoo for re-mineralizing.  I thought the old mix would be better maybe than the solution..
My TDS at the moment is 111ppm but I understand it still needs to be raised a little.
My main concen though is my KH and GH readings.  On testing with the API kit my GH starts green straight away with no orange then to green as per the instructions.  
KH starts yellow straight away again with no blue to start then to yellow again as per instructions.  
Is there something I have missed here or is this a normal feature of RO water being as a result of it being stripped of everything.  
At the moment I am starting with 50 litres and a move later to a 150 litre just to see how they go.  
This really is a great forum I seem to have lost track of it for a while and just rediscovered it .


----------



## MichaelJ

Hi @Kelvin12,

What are you using for remineralization? please provide a link to the product... is it AZoo-Aqua.com ? 

Shrimps generally prefer around 6-7 GH...  (Mostly made up by Calcium). You probably never want to go lower than 30 ppm of calcium, but also a relatively low TDS < 300 ppm depending on species, Crystals wants it much lower, but It also really depends on how well the stock is adapted to specific water parameters.   I keep my Cherry shrimps (Neocaridina) at 275ppm, 7 GH, 24C and they are very colorful and breeding... the ppm is a bit on the high side according to the expert breeder I bought them from. Ideally I should be down in the lower 250 ppm, but its somewhat of a balance with a densely planted tank.



Kelvin12 said:


> Is there something I have missed here or is this a normal feature of RO water being as a result of it being stripped of everything.


Yes, you will essentially see zero KH and zero GH out of a RO unit.... Not really sure if thats what your asking?



Kelvin12 said:


> I seem to have lost track of it for a while and just rediscovered it .


You are hereby redeemed... Welcome back to UKAPS!  

Cheers,
Michael


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## Kelvin12

G'DAY michaelJ,  thank you for the reply I was worried the post might have been a bit old to get a reply.   The re-mineralizer is  AZoo Gh plus gh and is according to the add,  and its supposed to be new.    
Yes that is the concern I have its the readings from the GH on testing it starts green straight away with no initial orange colour to start with as the API instructions say.  Similar results on the KH straight to yellow with no blue colour at the start as the instructions say.   I have read elsewhere today, endless reading, about this and they say its a normal thing with RO water to get these sort of readings with RO.    I do worry about some of this information on Google as a lot of it is quite old now.  
Been adding a few plants and wood today and watching carefully the TSD.  I'll  have to add a bit more AZoo de-mineralizer yet to bring it up as its still at 111ppm.  I'll do that steadily and in small increments.  I did actually overdose it initially and had to drain the tank and refill it all over again.      
Amazing site and its really busy with a lot of traffic.  No idea how I lost track of it as its bookmarked in my list but glad I stumbled across it again.   
.


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## MichaelJ

Kelvin12 said:


> G'DAY michaelJ,  thank you for the reply I was worried the post might have been a bit old to get a reply.   The re-mineralizer is  AZoo Gh plus gh and is according to the add,  and its supposed to be new.



Hi @Kelvin12 According to the product page for AZoo GH Plus  5ml adds 1 GH per 100 L.   So if your conditioning 50 L for say a GH of 6 - assuming its all RO water - you should add 15 ml. or basically 3 of the inner 5 ml caps.  This will require 6 drops using the API GH Test before the water in the test-tube turns green (remember to shake the tube with the cap on a couple of times between each drop).

Your KH will still be zero. In order to raise the KH you need to add a conditioner for that. You can use a bit of Calcium carbonate (CaCO3) which is cheap and readily available of Amazon  - a quarter of a teaspoon (1 gram) will add about 1 KH to 50 L. (it will also add about 1 GH - so you could lower the GH Plus dosage to 12.5 ML or two and a half inner cap if you want to remain at 6 GH...).

When you do weekly 50% water changes (25L), again, assuming all RO water, you just use half the amounts or a bit more to compensate for precipitation and uptake etc.

Unfortunately there is no guaranteed analysis on the GH Plus product, it only states its a w_ater soluble mineral complex_, so its hard to say what your resulting TDS will be, but a cautionary guess, based on the KH + GH + some minerals, is about 130 ppm. which should be perfect for Crystal Red Shrimps and still leaves a bit of headroom for additional fertilizer for your plants - not much though. Which, btw. is the reason I have not plunged into Crystal Red's yet... I would have to go lean on fertilizer and use 100% RO water... to meet the lower TDS requirements vs. Neo's... Instead of my current 40% Tap water / 60% RO water mix and lots of Macro fertilizer for my densely planted tanks.

I hope this helps!

Cheers,
Michael


----------



## Kelvin12

OK thank you once again.  At a guess I would say my API GH test solution is crook as it just goes straight to green and despite the number of drops I add and nothing changes it stays the initial green colour from the start.  I have shaken the guts out of the bottle and thumped it against the table to make sure nothing is setelled in the bottom and its mixed but no change.  I have read various posts about faulty API GH tests so it looks this might be the problem. Its expiry date is 2 months out of date while the KH solution still have another year plus to run.  Not a great quality control over the product. 
You are exactly right with the quantity of AZoo and my water is 100% RO.  
I only have 2 small plants of Java fern in this tank the rest will be various moss.  If the JF looks like its failing I will remove it.  I have been told CRS will not tolerate any nitrates so this tank won't  be fertalized at all.
My other tanks are all heavily planted and fertalized along the lines of the  PPS recomendations and have Co2 injection.  They are my dwarf reds and are in plague proportions.  They have bred like rabbits.  So really looking forward to having a go at CRS.


----------



## MichaelJ

Kelvin12 said:


> OK thank you once again.  At a guess I would say my API GH test solution is crook as it just goes straight to green and despite the number of drops I add and nothing changes it stays the initial green colour from the start.  I have shaken the guts out of the bottle and thumped it against the table to make sure nothing is setelled in the bottom and its mixed but no change.  I have read various posts about faulty API GH tests so it looks this might be the problem. Its expiry date is 2 months out of date while the KH solution still have another year plus to run.  Not a great quality control over the product.


Hi @Kelvin12  Yep, sounds like the GH solution is bad. I've never experienced that myself, but have heard of others where it wouldn't react correctly.



Kelvin12 said:


> I have been told CRS will not tolerate any nitrates so this tank won't  be fertalized at all.


I am not entirely sure that CRS won't tolerate any Nitrate at all - I think people with CRS are just trying to keep it on the low side of 5-10ppm or so - plenty of people are keeping CRS in heavily planted high tech tanks and that probably wouldn't work well if they would only be relying on the NO3 they get from nitrification.



Kelvin12 said:


> So really looking forward to having a go at CRS.


Sounds great - best of luck with the CRS's.

Cheers,
Michael


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


Kelvin12 said:


> I have been told CRS will not tolerate any nitrates so this tank won't be fertalized at all.


It isn't true. I know what they mean, but whoever has told you that just doesn't fully understand nitrification.  <"Plant growth is the easiest way to maintain water quality"> and <"plants need nitrogen (N)">.

The "_no nitrates_"  comment comes about because if you have an unplanted tank nitrate (NO3-) is the <"smoking gun"> of previous ammonia (TAN NH3/NH4+) and nitrite (NO2-) and it can only be depleted by <"water changes, ion exchange or anaerobic denitrification">. As soon <"as you have plants"> it all changes and they do the <"heavy lifting for you">, depleting all forms of fixed nitrogen (and all the other thirteen <"essential nutrients for plant growth"> as well).

I've not kept CRS, but if I did I'd use <"nutrient depletion"> and the <"Duckweed Index">. If you like it is an <"Orchid Growing approach">. 

Nitrate (NO3-) isn't toxic at low levels, we don't know what "low" means in terms of Crystal Red Shrimp (_Caridina cantonensis_), but whatever it is a planted tank is the <"easiest way of keep levels low">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Kelvin12

So much confusing and conflicting information out there guess its going to a case of careful and slow experimenting.   I do actually have 2 juvenile CB's in a reasonably heavy fertilized tank for a month or so now and they seem to happy enough so maybe I'll  experiment a bit.  
Thanks again for the input here.        
Dirk


----------



## erwin123

My 12G softwater
					

New light!  chihiros wrgbii 45  running at 60:60:35 rgb in order.   /forum/attachments/img_7416-jpg.171780/?hash=224e667fc31fb359479a577cbb47d3fe




					www.ukaps.org
				




Maybe you can check with plantnoobdude. Early on, he put CRS into his softwater planted tank with EI dosing.

But in the latest photos, the CRS are gone

​


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


Kelvin12 said:


> So much confusing and conflicting information out there guess its going to a case of careful and slow experimenting.


That is <"one of the issues"> with the WWW, but <"the coffee (not the froth)"> is that growing plants are the major factor in retaining and <"improving water quality">.Have a look at @Wookii 's <"post to see what I mean"> about plants and water quality.

cheers Darrel


----------



## The_storm

Great thread.
I'm fairly new to CRS and have yet to have any success with breeding them.
I have a 45L aquarium with a HOB filter containing biohome media. The tank is scraped using tropica soil, dragon stone, azaelia root and is heavily planted. I use RO, remineralised to a TDS of 130 with salty shrimp gh+. 
I have mineral stones from amazon in the water as well as alder cones and catapa leaves. I lightly dose ferts (twice a week) as well as glutaraldehyde. I dose 1 pump of each from the provided bottle, the recommended is one pump per 5l. 
As well as non breeding CRS I have a mix of Neocaridina, which are breeding prolifically. I also have a few amanos. 
My problem is my pH. Its 5.7, which I'm guessing is the reason why the CRS aren't breeding. 
Any advice and suggestions gratefully received.


----------



## Wookii

The_storm said:


> Great thread.
> I'm fairly new to CRS and have yet to have any success with breeding them.
> I have a 45L aquarium with a HOB filter containing biohome media. The tank is scraped using tropica soil, dragon stone, azaelia root and is heavily planted. I use RO, remineralised to a TDS of 130 with salty shrimp gh+.
> I have mineral stones from amazon in the water as well as alder cones and catapa leaves. I lightly dose ferts (twice a week) as well as glutaraldehyde. I dose 1 pump of each from the provided bottle, the recommended is one pump per 5l.
> As well as non breeding CRS I have a mix of Neocaridina, which are breeding prolifically. I also have a few amanos.
> My problem is my pH. Its 5.7, which I'm guessing is the reason why the CRS aren't breeding.
> Any advice and suggestions gratefully received.



If you are only adding Salty Shrimp GH+, I assuming you are running on RO water and therefore on zero carbonates (zero KH)? If so, I believe it is very difficult to accurately measure pH (@dw1305 might confirm).

I can't imagine pH 5.7 would be an issue for Caridina anyway, but if you wanted to try buffer it upwards a little, you can do so by adding some carbonate - potassium carbonate (K2CO3) or potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3) are the best options, as your plants will utilise the potassium also. You don't need a lot, as you probably want to keep your KH below 1 anyway. For your 45 litre tank you'd need to add 1.62 grams of KHCO3 or 1.08 grams of K2CO3 per 1dKH change.

How long have you had the CRS in the tank? Bear in mind that they have after a successful moult and breeding, it can take 4-6 weeks for the babies to appear. Also how many mature adults do you have in there of each gender - I can't see many in your FTS?

If you are serious about breeding the CRS, you may also want to take out the Amano's - they can be quite predatory and may well take freshly hatched baby shrimp. I'd also discontinue the glute - though it's only anecdotal, I noticed fewer babies when I used to dose it (though admittedly that was with Neo's).


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


Wookii said:


> I assuming you are running on zero carbonates (zero KH)? If so, I believe it is very difficult to accurately measure pH (@dw1305 might confirm).


Sort of yes and no. As you lose carbonate buffering the pH of the water becomes much less stable and you can see much <"bigger diurnal (diel) pH oscillations"> in <"vegetated waters">.  

In terms of accuracy of pH measurement it isn't dKH that matters, it depends on <"the ionic strength"> of the dilute solution ("tank water").

cheers Darrel


----------



## Wookii

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Sort of yes and no. As you lose carbonate buffering the pH of the water becomes much less stable and you can see much <"bigger diurnal (diel) pH oscillations"> in <"vegetated waters">.
> 
> In terms of accuracy of pH measurement it isn't dKH that matters, it depends on <"the ionic strength"> of the dilute solution ("tank water").
> 
> cheers Darrel



Thanks Darrel - so if you have carbonates (zero KH) but still have a TDS of 100-150 ppm, will you be able to get an accurate pH reading?


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


ForestDave said:


> Would you change or add anything to this guys daphnia system


I see I never answered this one. Yes, that looks a pretty good method if you want to culture a lot of _Daphnia. _


Wookii said:


> so if you have carbonates (zero KH) but still have a TDS of 100-150 ppm, will you be able to get an accurate pH reading?


Potentially you could, it will still take the meter a while to equilibriate (that is still a dilute solution in pH measuring terms). The reading will be accurate when you took it, but it would only be  snap-shot, and you might find readings taken an hour apart are vastly different, particularly when the plants are photosynthesising etc.

This quote is from Diana Walstad's <"Ecology of the Planted Aquarium">


> ......_Data collected in a freshwater lake (Star Lake, VT) with a very low alkalinity showed a diurnal pH fluctuation beyond the imagination of most hobbyists. Thus, the pH at 10 am was measured at 5.7 (strongly acidic), 9.6 at noon (strongly alkaline), 8.3 at 2 pm (moderately alkaline) and finally, 6.4 at 4 pm (slightly / moderately acidic). Readings were taken at a 0.5M depth. The fluctuation observed was due to the low KH value of the water (something reported for the Amazon river, too) and the presence of large amounts of phytoplankton._ .....


cheers Darrel


----------



## The_storm

Thanks for the replies. 

I've had CRS in the aquarium for 6 months, maybe about 30, including 10 younger ones I purchased last week, there are a good mix of m/f. 

I'll stop using glute but I'm not sure the anecdotal evidence on amano shrimp is correct, as many baby neocaridina in the tank, would caridina young be easier to prey in than neocaridina? 
If the consensus is my pH isn't a problem, perhaps I need to look at something else?


----------



## MichaelJ

The_storm said:


> Thanks for the replies.
> 
> I've had CRS in the aquarium for 6 months, maybe about 30, including 10 younger ones I purchased last week, there are a good mix of m/f.
> 
> I'll stop using glute but I'm not sure the anecdotal evidence on amano shrimp is correct, as many baby neocaridina in the tank, would caridina young be easier to prey in than neocaridina?
> If the consensus is my pH isn't a problem, perhaps I need to look at something else?



HI @The_storm  Its possible that your on the edge of suboptimal water conditions for the CRS to take off... 5.7 pH is probably a bit low, but shouldn't be a problem in isolation, as pointed out by @Wookii , the ideal pH range is probably around 6.5 pH  - You said you target 130 ppm with Salty Shrimp GH+... (I assume thats not all Ca:Mg.. I couldn't find a guaranteed analysis for the product)  Whats your GH? Also, I would provide _some_ buffering capacity as well, like 1.0 KH, just to stabilize things a bit. And finally, what's your temperature?

Cheers,
Michael


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## Wookii

MichaelJ said:


> I assume thats not all Ca:Mg.. I couldn't find a guaranteed analysis for the product



I believe it’s pretty much just calcium chloride and magnesium chloride @MichaelJ


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## MichaelJ

Wookii said:


> I believe it’s pretty much just calcium chloride and magnesium chloride @MichaelJ


Thanks @Wookii  OK, if chloride based ( in the customary 3:1 Ca:Mg ratio) at 130 ppm that should land the tank at around 6 GH  (with room for a a bit of other minerals), which should be fine as well for the CRS. Would be interesting to know what GH @The_storm is actually measuring.

Cheers,
Michael


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## The_storm

I've not measured the GH as I've been assured (rightly or wrongly?) that remineralising RO to a TDS of 130 gave a GH of 6. My temp is 22.
Correction to my earlier post, this is the remineralising salt I'm using .
Really appreciate the advice.


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## MichaelJ

The_storm said:


> I've not measured the GH as I've been assured (rightly or wrongly?) that remineralising RO to a TDS of 130 gave a GH of 6.


Yes, it should give you right around 6 GH... I would check the GH regardless. I saw a note on a different forum where someone was targeting 150 ppm and measured 4 GH... might be a fluke, but you never know.   Always good to know where it's at with these "proprietary blends" products, in case there are production slip-ups etc. I know we cant verify everything, but GH is a fairly easy one to measure reliably in my experience.



The_storm said:


> My temp is 22.


22 C should be fine for CRS.



The_storm said:


> Correction to my earlier post, this is the remineralising salt I'm using .


That's the one I thought you were using.

Cheers,
Michael


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## pat1cp

I'm pretty new to this, but after adding 12 RCS about 5 weeks ago, I've had a bit of a population explosion  It's very satisfying to have them breeding.

Edit...sorry, I didn't realise this was a dedicated thread for CRS and not RCS.


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## The_storm

Would "cutting" the remineralised RO with dechlorinated tap water with a pH of 7.3 and a TDS of 330 (liquid rock area!) solve the problem or would I be adding KH to the aquarium?


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## MichaelJ

The_storm said:


> Would "cutting" the remineralised RO with dechlorinated tap water with a pH of 7.3 and a TDS of 330 (liquid rock area!) solve the problem or would I be adding KH to the aquarium?


Adding tap water will almost certainly add KH to your tank. Again, I suggest you measure your GH (and KH) so you know where you're at approximately - you really just need to measure occasionally, but they are good parameters to know when keeping shrimps especially. 

Cheers,
Michael


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## MichaelJ

pat1cp said:


> Edit...sorry, I didn't realise this was a dedicated thread for CRS and not RCS.


Hi @pat1cp  No problem. Not super critical either way... plenty of people keep both and are having both thriving and breeding in the same tank - but it seems a good idea to slant the water parameters  more towards what is preferred by the CRS rather than the RCS which seems more adaptable to typical CRS conditions rather than the other way around. Congrats on your RCS success btw! 

Cheers,
Michael


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## The_storm

Can you recommend a good gh/KH kit?


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## Wookii

The_storm said:


> Can you recommend a good gh/KH kit?



I use the API drip titration ones for checking my RO based tanks, and they are very consistent, plus they give you the ability to double/quadruple the test fluid volume to vary the test accuracy/resolution:

Amazon product


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## The_storm

Ordered. Thanks everyone. 
pH seems settled at 6.6 but its early days. I bought ht some  Fritz buffering and mixed a batch with the gh+.


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## MichaelJ

Wookii said:


> plus they give you the ability to double/quadruple the test fluid volume to vary the test accuracy/resolution:


Yup, I use a 10 ml test tube, instead of the 5 ml tube that comes with the API GH/KH Test Kit. The 10 ml tube gives what is akin to a +/- 0.5 resolution. At least it narrows the uncertainty. For measurements in the 4 and above range its perfect, but it becomes tricky to measure if your down in the 1-2 range, where I am at with my KH, as the color and reaction gets very faint and subtle in a 10 ml tube.

Cheers,
Michael


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## Kelvin12

Just got my CRS finally.  Had to wait to go down to Sydney after lockdowns were lifted to collect them as relying on our crappy postal service was way to big a risk.   Anyhow they seem happy in their new home and foreaging around but are small so no idea of the mix M or F at this stage.  
So following this post with interest.  
Dirk


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## The_storm

So 6 weeks in and the pH is settled at 6.2 +/- .1
The GH is 5/6 & the KH is 0.5/1
 I do a 20% water change when the TDS reaches 220
Patience and time will tell!


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## The_storm

Time told. I have a berried female. Stability is the key. Chasing water parameters is pointless.


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## Frenchie

The_storm said:


> Time told. I have a berried female. Stability is the key. Chasing water parameters is pointless.


Totally agree with this! 
Took me a while to get that stability but then they have kicked off and my females seem to be constantly berried!


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## The_storm

Fruits of toil. Lots of tiny shrimplets roaming around the tank. 
Thank you so much for your help.


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## Wookii

The_storm said:


> Fruits of toil. Lots of tiny shrimplets roaming around the tank.
> Thank you so much for your help.



Well done - I'm still waiting for my CBS to start producing!


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## The_storm

Thanks. It was a puzzling journey!


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## MichaelJ

The_storm said:


> Fruits of toil. Lots of tiny shrimplets roaming around the tank.
> Thank you so much for your help.


@The_storm  Exciting! Congratulations!  I am in the process of slowly tweaking my water a bit for a future introduction of CRS to my shrimp tank (currently have various colors of RCS) - essentially knocking the TDS down to the 150 ppm range from 210-230 in the past. I am currently hovering at 190 ppm - still a bit too high for the CRS I am getting which are mostly raised in waters around 150-160ppm...  I assume you maintained GH at 5/6 and KH at 0.5/1, but what about your TDS? Where is that at? also what's your water temperature?



The_storm said:


> Stability is the key.


Very true.



The_storm said:


> Chasing water parameters is pointless.


As a blanket statement, for shrimps in particular, this is most certainly incorrect. You got to be in the ballpark with your water parameters, but probably nothing more than that.  If your Ca and/or Mg content is too low your shrimps wont be able to build their exoskeleton and molt successfully...if Ca content is too high they wont be able to molt successfully either.  Shrimps don't have the same ability for osmotic regulation as fish, so if your TDS is too high (or extremely low) your shrimps wont thrive - and rapid changes to TDS can be lethal as  shrimp adapts to change in osmotic pressure very slowly. If your Cu content is too high your shrimps will most likely die etc.

Cheers,
Michael


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## The_storm

Thanks Michael, exiting indeed! GH has always been at about 6 and KH usually zero but never more than 0.5.
I've gradually reduced the TDS to 150 after realising I was making the mistake of topping up with mineralised water. I now top up the evaporation with pure RO.
Temp sits at about 22.
I do a bi weekly water change of temperature matched, remineralised RO. 
10 litres of RO at a TDS of 130 in a 45 litre tank.


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## MichaelJ

The_storm said:


> Thanks Michael, exiting indeed! GH has always been at about 6 and KH usually zero but never more than 0.5.
> I've gradually reduced the TDS to 150 after realising I was making the mistake of topping up with mineralised water. I now top up the evaporation with pure RO.
> Temp sits at about 22.


Great! Good to know that my targets are not too far off 

Cheers,
Michael


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## Jaseon

The_storm said:


> I've gradually reduced the TDS to 150 after realising I was making the mistake of topping up with mineralised water.


I learnt that from reef keepers in that they top up with fresh, and not salt.

Ive not been keeping shrimp long so excited seeing i have two berried. They are molting ok so my water seems to be ok for them.


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## Kelvin12

Interesting point by Storm about using straight RO.   I was following a recomendation of using only straight RO top up water.  The theory being the minerals don't evaporate but I found that straight RO replacement water, (in my case 10 lts) did  drop the TDS and I lost a few critters.   Now I do remineralize the top up to the same TDS reading as the tank.  

These CRS are delicate enough depending on their previous parameters but try PRL they are a challenge.   I am battling a high basic tap water Ph level  which also gives me a higher RO Ph level than generally but looks like I have it under control, (sort of) but its taken some doing and keeping it at the correct level and the other readings stable is definately the answer.  I also drip aclamatise my top up water just as a caution.

Just waiting for new shipment of PRL's this morning or whenever they arrive with this lousy postal service we have here these days.


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## Jaseon

Kelvin12 said:


> I also drip aclamatise my top up water just as a caution.


I think thats a real good habit to get into, and i do the same. Although doing it manually is no hardship i would like to set up an auto top up system as i get further along into it.


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## The_storm

I do the water change with remineralised RO to a TDS of 130 but I top up with 'pure' RO. 
I'm still in the mode of checking the TDS daily and it's stable at 150, the GH stays at 6 and the KH is negligible. 
When I topped up with mineralised RO, my TDS kept rising.


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## Jaseon

The_storm said:


> I do the water change with remineralised RO to a TDS of 130 but I top up with 'pure' RO.
> I'm still in the mode of checking the TDS daily and it's stable at 150, the GH stays at 6 and the KH is negligible.


What makes the TDS jump to 150?


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## Wookii

I top up with pure RO too - topping up with remineralised water should definitely cause a rising TDS otherwise.


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## The_storm

Probably the addition of ferts.


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## Kelvin12

My TDS readings are lower GH are similar but KH are 0.   Temperatures are pretty high at this time of the year and I am dropping in large ice cubes to try to keep them down in bigger tanks but so far the CRS and PRL are staying reasonable.


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## erwin123

I'm starting my cardinia journey with regular bee shrimp first (i.e. the 'normal' black striped version) as they are supposedly less sensitive than CRS (and cost a lot less, at least the low grade ones I got).  When I measured the TDS of the water they came with, it was 162.


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## Kelvin12

Seems a little high but I haven't had experience with B's myself but can't  see them being all that much different to CRS.


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## MichaelJ

erwin123 said:


> I'm starting my cardinia journey with regular bee shrimp first (i.e. the 'normal' black striped version) as they are supposedly less sensitive than CRS (and cost a lot less, at least the low grade ones I got).  When I measured the TDS of the water they came with, it was 162.


Hi @erwin123   Congrats! The breeder I will get mine from is in the 150-160 ppm range. So 162 seems fine. Of course, your tank needs to be in the same range as well. Drip acclimate for sure - but I am sure you did that.

Cheers,
Michael


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## The_storm

After 6 months of trying to get the CRS to breed, they now won't stop. I've put the issue down to a heater that fluctuated wildly. 
Since replacing it with an Eheim thermocontrol, the temperature has remained between 21 and 21.5. The tank has new shrimplets once a week for the last 3 weeks. Stability is the key, via effective monitoring of all the relevant parameters.


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## Wookii

The_storm said:


> After 6 months of trying to get the CRS to breed, they now won't stop. I've put the issue down to a heater that fluctuated wildly.
> Since replacing it with an Eheim thermocontrol, the temperature has remained between 21 and 21.5. The tank has new shrimplets once a week for the last 3 weeks. Stability is the key, via effective monitoring of all the relevant parameters.



You’re doing better than me then - my CBS still haven’t bred. Not sure where I’m going wrong on this one. What do you feed yours CRS?


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## The_storm

Hi. They took ages and I couldn't see the wood for the trees but I got the parameters right and kept it, without messing and chasing. 
I feed them a variety of foods, including some home made. 
They get bacter ae and a nettle/dry bloodworm/fish food/algae wafer dust I've milled down, as well as dehydrated nettle (fresh blanched when in season) a mixture of dried leaves and snowflake. I vary this but freed them tiny amounts. 
Best advice? Run a daily log of pH/TDS and temperature, do this several times a day to ensure your parameters are constant.


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## Dobert

The_storm said:


> They get bacter ae and a nettle/dry bloodworm/fish food/algae wafer dust I've milled down, as well as dehydrated nettle (fresh blanched when in season) a mixture of dried leaves and snowflake.


sounds like some happy shrimps you have there


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## The_storm

They don't suffer for lack of variety!


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## Kelvin12

Storm can you post up a photo of stinging nettle.  Not sure if its the same one we call stinging nettle here in AU.  
Good mix of foods.  Amazing how different tanks of the same shrimp won't even look at the same foods.


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## The_storm

Stinging nettle (Urtica dioica)


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## Kelvin12

They look different to our unfortunately from what I can see. 
Thanks for doing the photo, appreciated.


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