# Positioning Spraybar?



## bhavik (28 May 2019)

i am a bit confused as to the best place for me to position the spray bar in the tank. I am planning on putting it at the back of the tank, the spray bar fits the length of the tank.

But i am unsure whether i should put it below the water surface near to the plants and pointing the hole towards the plants or if i should put it above the water surface?

I do have a Large air driven sponge filter which does also break up the water surface

thanks for your help.


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## Edvet (28 May 2019)

Just below the surface pointing towards the opposite side, to create a circular flow. ( with waterlevel lowered jets from the spraybar should hit the opposite side strengthwise)
Target is to have all the plants swaying in the flow.
Sponge filter could dirve out CO2 if you are using it.


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## dw1305 (28 May 2019)

Hi all, 





bhavik said:


> But i am unsure whether i should put it below the water surface near to the plants and pointing the hole towards the plants or if i should put it above the water surface?


Just below the surface, angled to give you a "surface ripple". 

I'm not a CO2 user and I like quite a strong "ripple", because I'm aiming for a larger gas exchange surface.

cheers Darrel


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## foxfish (28 May 2019)

What you are trying to achieve is a circular flow of the whole water contents of the tank.
We don’t want to much surface movement (especially if you inject C02) so the spray-bar (not the best term) is positioned along the back glass with the holes pointing towards the front glass and about 25mm under the water.
If we get it right with the position and the flow rate, then the water from the spray bar holes will travel along the surface, down the front, along the bottom and back up the back and while doing this, the flow should intermingle amongst the plant and cause a circular motion  within the tank.


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## bhavik (28 May 2019)

Hi thanks for the reply I don’t inject CO2. 
I am a bit confused is the main aim to increase surface movement to get more co2 in the tank or to increase circulation in the tank?

Thing is I don’t think the current is strong enough to make the water hit the front of the glass 
i’ll have a look to confirm. 

Also when I placed the spray bar just below the water surface do I position the holes straight ahead or angle them slightly downward?

Thanks


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## Tom Michael (28 May 2019)

Both surface movement and decent flow. In my non co2 tanks I find they do better with more of a rippling effect than Co2 injected as this way the water is in more contact with atmospheric Co2 (albeit very low levels, which is fine with lower lighting intensity and period).

So, spray bar either under the water pointing upwards or out trickling down. I prefer the former if you have enough flow rate.


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## bhavik (28 May 2019)

Tom Michael said:


> Both surface movement and decent flow. In my non co2 tanks I find they do better with more of a rippling effect than Co2 injected as this way the water is in more contact with atmospheric Co2 (albeit very low levels, which is fine with lower lighting intensity and period).
> 
> So, spray bar either under the water pointing upwards or out trickling down. I prefer the former if you have enough flow rate.



i have the sponge filter which makes good surface movement combined with the spray bar would that be good? - my tank is also open from the side and is not fully cover so it does have contact with the air.

but how would pointing the bar upwards create a circular motion?
I don't understand what you mean by tricking down? do you mean pointing the holes towards the plants? - would i be able to do this if i have reduced flow?

thanks


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## Tom Michael (28 May 2019)

if your spray bar is powered by a decent flow canister, the water should exit evenly at a decent rate i.e. If pointing vertically should hit the front glass without dropping too much height. If this is the case with your set up point the bar very slightly upwards so you get a good ripple effect for gas exchange.

This will also ensure circular flow front to back, notwithstanding hardscape.

If your flow is week from the spray bar the pressure might not be sufficient for this technique and you could raise slightly- it's a bit of trial and error.

If your aquarium was Co2 injected these details are fundamental, however as not you have a much bigger margin of error, provided you have low intensity lighting.


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## bhavik (28 May 2019)

Hi there so i have just setup my spray bar this is how it looks?
Is that alright? All of the plants seem to be moving gently.
most of the plants are quite small atm

Here is a video of it setup


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## Tom Michael (28 May 2019)

the flow and movement look great.

I would strongly suggest filling with much more plants (easy section from tropica), the plants you have may well fill in, but this will take a long time in your set up and more importantly   algae have a much lower chance of outcompeting a high volume of healthy plants

what is the sand you are using? I ask as it looks quite a small grain size which could cause you problems - if its designed for aquarium use then no problems. 

also I am fond of red tail sharks but may be a tad large for your set up. Likewise for the Angel, who prefer to shoal in groups.


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## bhavik (28 May 2019)

Thank you I cleaned the filter today and that’s why I think it’s giving this much flow I will leave it as is and see what happens. Would you say the flow is good enough for the tank? I’m also using profito easy life as a fert is that any good?

As for the plants I have a small grow out tank which I’m growing more plants in and once they are ready I will be moving them over but I will check that out 

Yes the sand is quite small but it for aquarium use

I know that red tail I have had since I started the tank I think which was quite a while ago it seems happy. As for the angel it was bonded with a pair but died probably will get another mate for it


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## Tom Michael (29 May 2019)

Yes, flow looks good. 

Regarding fertilisers you need to supply plants with Macro and Micro. The fish you have in there will create a lot of waste, which will probably suffice for your Macros. So occasionally micro dosing should suffice, I don't know that brand look on the label if it refers to trace elements like iron etc your good to go.

In my low tech aquariums I like to supply ferts to the plants roots, tropica capsules are a good choice.

My key advice is to keep your lighting intensity and period low as your plants will be growing slowly due to the low levels of co2 present, therefore any excess light will only help nuicence algae. Water changes will also help your plants and limit algae


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## Wolfito (29 May 2019)

from left ro right or if you have 2 filters from corner to the oposite corner diagonal way


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## bhavik (29 May 2019)

Tom Michael said:


> Yes, flow looks good.
> 
> Regarding fertilisers you need to supply plants with Macro and Micro. The fish you have in there will create a lot of waste, which will probably suffice for your Macros. So occasionally micro dosing should suffice, I don't know that brand look on the label if it refers to trace elements like iron etc your good to go.
> 
> ...



Yes the Profito easylife i am using only add micronutrients, i have added some root tabs under the more demanding plants so see how they get on.

I am assuming the more plants i add to the tank the easy it will get to maintain as well as find of aglae?

Thanks for your help!


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## Tom Michael (29 May 2019)

_I am assuming the more plants i add to the tank the easy it will get to maintain as well as find of aglae? 
_
That's right, they won't be growing that fast in low tech so trimming won't be too bad. Just make sure they are 'easy' plants, some will do better than others a bit of trial and error really as each aquarium is different.

This was my last low tech attempt to get an idea of plant types:

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/japan-inspired-low-tech.35811/page-2#post-429437


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## bhavik (29 May 2019)

Tom Michael said:


> _I am assuming the more plants i add to the tank the easy it will get to maintain as well as find of aglae?
> _
> That's right, they won't be growing that fast in low tech so trimming won't be too bad. Just make sure they are 'easy' plants, some will do better than others a bit of trial and error really as each aquarium is different.
> 
> ...



Wow that looks good! How did you manage to get the plants look very lush and green?


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## Tom Michael (30 May 2019)

Nothing particularly special- low lighting, regular water changes, soil substrate and quite a high volume of plants to start.


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## bhavik (22 Jun 2019)

So after position my spray bar like you guys said there is defo movement of the plant leaves and it seems like the flow is reaching everywhere in the tank.

The plants did start to grow new healthy leaves but now has stopped and now growth has stopped
Not sure why or what’s happened

also does decreasing the temp of the tank a couple of decrease increase the amount of CO2 can hold from the atmosphere from surface movement?


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## bhavik (23 Jun 2019)

any help please?


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## Tom Michael (23 Jun 2019)

In non Co2 injected growth rate will be slow. Soil/root tabs should help, but if the aquarium hasn’t started with a high plant mass (ie full of plants) you will probably need to wait a long time to see the tank fill in.

Ironically, if you increase light to increase the growth rate this may lead to algae problems as there is not enough co2 present the plants to grow. It’s a balancing act.


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## alto (23 Jun 2019)

As this no longer seems to be about spray bar positioning, beginning a new topic re specific plant growth issues might generate more assistance

Details such as those listed in the beginning post of Dragons Den
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/dragons-den.57416/
are useful

If possible include photos of tank set up, plant closeups etc



bhavik said:


> also does decreasing the temp of the tank a couple of decrease increase the amount of CO2 can hold from the atmosphere from surface movement?


I think you’re asking how surface movement affects CO2 transfer from air to water column?
And will this improve with lowered temperature?

My thoughts
- what is the current tank temp?
- what is the target temperature?
- is this the only source of CO2? 
- are you adding “liquid carbon” supplements? if so, what exactly?
- is fish load moderate? light? heavy? (a list of snails, shrimp, fish species and number would help me deduce effects of CO2 from livestock)
- what are tank dimensions? - volume to surface area ratio is important when considering passive diffusion 

When you provide minimal information, all I can do is guess (wildly) at possible factors and effects, the more detail you provide, the more informed my guesses might be


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (23 Jun 2019)

Yea if you decrease water temperature the co2 is more readily dissolvable. Green Aqua run all their tanks at 22-23 degrees for this very reason I believe


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## bhavik (26 Jun 2019)

Also would keeping up the water changes help in getting stable co2 in the tank?
Say water changes ever 1-2 weeks?


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (26 Jun 2019)

Water changes add co2 to the system temporarily. Either do them once a day before lights on or do them as part of your maintenance regime.


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## bhavik (27 Jun 2019)

Ok that’s fine so the more water changes I do the better the co2 will be?


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## Zeus. (27 Jun 2019)

bhavik said:


> Ok that’s fine so the more water changes I do the better the co2 will be?



I use a pH controller Via a PLC to control my tank, its a bit OTT, however it does make things easier IMO. I always get the pH drop after a WC a bout 25% faster after a WC it is dependent on how much of a WC I do and how close the WC is next to the CO2 starting OFC but there is allows a significant difference.
So IMO/IME the user who doesnt use a pH controller and just injects CO2 at a constant rate and duration will on WC day have a bigger pH drop for lights on. I not saying a pH controller is worth the money or in fact needed, I would say the opposite in fact. I Good pH probe/pen on the other hand is very useful.

I do plan to take the pH controllor off my tank, as I only use it the control a fast pH drop with having duel CO2 injection, but do plan to have the CO2 on time before lights shorter on WC day (made easy with PLC)


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (27 Jun 2019)

That makes perfect sense. I was assuming anon injected system, in which a water change will add co2, if the water is already saturated with co2 from a night of continuous injection and no 'users' then what you have observed will be true.


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## bhavik (27 Jun 2019)

Sorry I’m a bit confused so what does this mean?


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## bhavik (29 Jun 2019)

???


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## Zeus. (29 Jun 2019)

bhavik said:


> ???



If that is referring my post about CO2 and the change in the time it takes to reach target pH/[CO2] via the pH controller. What I was trying to say is that if the WC is near lights on then you will get an increase in [CO2] for lights on just in doing the WC, however you would need to to it every day and you would still have fluctuating [CO2] as the [CO2] will decrease as it degases and the plants use it. Fluctuating [CO2] is worse than no CO2


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (30 Jun 2019)

Agreed, looking back you are not injecting co2, so water changes will add co2 for maybe 1 day max, but fluctuating levels of co2 in your system are not good. So in conclusion we do not recommend water changes to increase co2 levels.

As an aside, I now dose guteraldehyde with my water changes to minimise the risk of algae taking hold during this "time of change" which is proving quite effective.


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