# Substrate maintenance!



## LMuhlen (8 Jul 2022)

Some of the 2hr aquarist articles suggest regularly performing maintenance on aquasoils, blowing particulate matter out with a turkey baster during water changes.

I think this is directly related to wanting to keep microbiological growth under control with all the organics present. At least, with the relatively large grains, it is easy to get some of this excess removed.


----------



## _Maq_ (8 Jul 2022)

LMuhlen said:


> Some of the 2hr aquarist articles suggest regularly performing maintenance on aquasoils, blowing particulate matter out with a turkey baster during water changes.
> I think this is directly related to wanting to keep microbiological growth under control with all the organics present. At least, with the relatively large grains, it is easy to get some of this excess removed.



The life cycle of most heterotrophic bacteria counts 2 to 8 hours.
You obviously do not refer to dissolved organics.


----------



## macek.g (8 Jul 2022)

Hi @MAQ I would like to hear from you
on the K-Ca-Mg relationship
Well, for years I have been visiting various forums around the world and these opinions are different
I also meet those where the main problem is Mg and it is best when we keep it low (or even very low) in relation to K (example equailibrium)
What is the role of Mg in "submerged plants" in relation to K according to you?
Of course, I take into account the soil substrate - neutral gravel
maybe some research?

Overall, I was intrigued by your observation here:





						Latest insights on Calcium
					

That is a very good question @Yugang.  When you look at natural habitats it doesn't seem like Mother Nature is being excessively caught up in ratios.... :) for instance Chemistry of different amazonian water types. shows waterway with anything from 1:1 to 8:1 with regards to Ca:Mg contents. (but...



					www.ukaps.org
				




Can manganese in aquatic plants be mobile? (I repeat in aquatic plants)


----------



## sparkyweasel (8 Jul 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> The life cycle of most heterotrophic bacteria counts 2 to 8 hours.


 . . . and?


----------



## _Maq_ (8 Jul 2022)

macek.g said:


> Hi @MAQ I would like to hear from you
> on the K-Ca-Mg relationship
> Well, for years I have been visiting various forums around the world and these opinions are different
> I also meet those where the main problem is Mg and it is best when we keep it low (or even very low) in relation to K (example equailibrium)
> ...


Submerged plants do not form any separate group among higher plants. Their traits can be subsumed among the term 'adaptation'. I mean, the physiology is basically the same. Differences are minor; par example, submerged plants invest less in the supporting tissues, do not need regulatory mechanisms to avoid water loss through transpiration, they build aerenchyma to transport gasses to the roots, and so on. The enzymes, chlorophyll, amino acids, sugars, etc. etc. are the same.
So, manganese is just as immobile as within terrestrial plants. The role of magnesium is also the same; predominant part of magnesium is used for building chlorophyll. 
I've arrived at certain ratio among K, Mg & Ca which works well. At the same time, plants are plastic creatures and can cope with wide deviations from this ratio. Yet from time to time distortions appear. I'm still researching this issue, but so far, my ratio seems to never fail. That's why I dared to announce it publicly.


----------



## _Maq_ (8 Jul 2022)

sparkyweasel said:


> . . . and?





LMuhlen said:


> Some of the 2hr aquarist articles suggest regularly performing maintenance on aquasoils, blowing particulate matter out with a turkey baster during water changes.
> I think this is directly related to wanting to keep microbiological growth under control with all the organics present. At least, with the relatively large grains, it is easy to get some of this excess removed.


How often do you do water change? Once a week? Within a few days, bacteria can multiply many many times.


----------



## erwin123 (9 Jul 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> Submerged plants do not form any separate group among higher plants. Their traits can be subsumed among the term 'adaptation'. I mean, the physiology is basically the same. Differences are minor; par example, submerged plants invest less in the supporting tissues, do not need regulatory mechanisms to avoid water loss through transpiration, they build aerenchyma to transport gasses to the roots, and so on. The enzymes, chlorophyll, amino acids, sugars, etc. etc. are the same.
> So, manganese is just as immobile as within terrestrial plants. The role of magnesium is also the same; predominant part of magnesium is used for building chlorophyll.
> I've arrived at certain ratio among K, Mg & Ca which works well. At the same time, plants are plastic creatures and can cope with wide deviations from this ratio. Yet from time to time distortions appear. I'm still researching this issue, but so far, my ratio seems to never fail. That's why I dared to announce it publicly.


I hope you will be able to conduct your experiments on Ammannia Pedicatella 'Golden' as its supposed to have different requirements where K is concerned - if you are able to grow it with high or even 'normal' levels of K dosing simply by adjusting the Ca ratio, that would be valuable information for many hobbyists.  Plantnoobdude is growing it successfully in low TDS RO/DI (40+ TDS)  water while mine are struggling a bit in tapwater (120+TDS  Gh6).


----------



## _Maq_ (9 Jul 2022)

erwin123 said:


> I hope you will be able to conduct your experiments on Ammannia Pedicatella 'Golden' as its supposed to have different requirements where K is concerned


I do have it, small in-vitro plantlets, in all Portugals. As yet, they live and grow in all of them. In a few months, I'll learn more.
In spring, I tested Ammannia crassicaulis. Have a look here: Latest insights on Calcium . Key findings: A. crassicaulis can prosper in wide range of pH, at least 6 to 8, no defects with my ratio K:Mg:Ca = 1:3:10 by weight. It seems it does not like _very_ low-mineralized water. It can uptake un-chelated micronutrients while pH=8.


----------



## _Maq_ (27 Jul 2022)

As a novice to this forum I'm surprised that most of you use commercial 'active' or 'nutrient-rich' substrates.
My thesis: *All those commercial substrates are no better than silica sand*. The success or failure depends on other variables, and commercial substrates do not render any real advantage.
You are sincerely welcome to *prove me wrong*. Suggest a species which - in your opinion - I cannot keep in good condition in silica sand (while you can, thanks to a better substrate).
I imagine I'll acquire the suggested species and plant it in one (or more) of my tanks. I'll inform you on the result. 
So, any suggestions? 😁


----------



## LondonDragon (27 Jul 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> As a novice to this forum I'm surprised that most of you use commercial 'active' or 'nutrient-rich' substrates.


I kept a tank for 7-8 years with plain gravel and grew most plants including various carpeting plants without any issues! 
Using a commercial soil just means that after 2-3 years it will turn to mud, and you will need to redo it all again LOL


----------



## sparkyweasel (27 Jul 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> As a novice to this forum I'm surprised that most of you use commercial 'active' or 'nutrient-rich' substrates.


Do we?
You could post a poll to ask people what they use.

I don't remember any-one who uses active substrate claiming that they grow plants that users of inert substrates *cannot *grow. Although the manufacturers make some bold claims.


----------



## Andy Pierce (27 Jul 2022)

I use aquasoil because I find the texture convenient and I'm pleasantly surprised by how it hasn't all turned to mud after a couple of years so I like it as a physical support that doesn't pack in too densely.  I do EI ferts and expect all the fertilisation to come through the water column (I don't ever change out the aquasoil).


----------



## GreggZ (28 Jul 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> As a novice to this forum I'm surprised that most of you use commercial 'active' or 'nutrient-rich' substrates.
> My thesis: *All those commercial substrates are no better than silica sand*. The success or failure depends on other variables, and commercial substrates do not render any real advantage.
> You are sincerely welcome to *prove me wrong*. Suggest a species which - in your opinion - I cannot keep in good condition in silica sand (while you can, thanks to a better substrate).
> I imagine I'll acquire the suggested species and plant it in one (or more) of my tanks. I'll inform you on the result.
> So, any suggestions? 😁


All in all I have to agree. I have kept high tech tanks in both Black Diamond Blasting Sand and Landen Aqua Soil. You can have a great tank with either. The basics remain the same. The right light, CO2, fertilization, maintenance, horticulture and you can do equally well with either.

Here is my tank with inert BDBS.






And here is a year later with Landen.


----------



## macek.g (28 Jul 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> As a novice to this forum I'm surprised that most of you use commercial 'active' or 'nutrient-rich' substrates.
> My thesis: *All those commercial substrates are no better than silica sand*. The success or failure depends on other variables, and commercial substrates do not render any real advantage.
> You are sincerely welcome to *prove me wrong*. Suggest a species which - in your opinion - I cannot keep in good condition in silica sand (while you can, thanks to a better substrate).
> I imagine I'll acquire the suggested species and plant it in one (or more) of my tanks. I'll inform you on the result.
> So, any suggestions? 😁


I will refer to it later

And to this, because I have a different view, "deeper analysis"





						Latest insights on Calcium
					

That is a very good question @Yugang.  When you look at natural habitats it doesn't seem like Mother Nature is being excessively caught up in ratios.... :) for instance Chemistry of different amazonian water types. shows waterway with anything from 1:1 to 8:1 with regards to Ca:Mg contents. (but...



					www.ukaps.org


----------



## jaypeecee (28 Jul 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> As a novice to this forum I'm surprised that most of you use commercial 'active' or 'nutrient-rich' substrates.
> My thesis: *All those commercial substrates are no better than silica sand*.


Hi @_Maq_ 

My current tank substrate is inert silica sand but I only have Java Ferns in this tank, which get all their nutrients from the water column. In previous tanks, I've always been concerned about nutrients from the substrate leaching into the water column where they could potentially encourage algae/Cyano growth.

JPC


----------



## _Maq_ (29 Jul 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> I've always been concerned about nutrients from the substrate leaching into the water column where they could potentially encourage algae/Cyano growth.


That sounds logical, and there are various papers on ecology which suggest it works like that in natural habitats.
In tanks, it seems to be different. Consider what huge amounts of fertilizers many hobbyists pour in their tanks, incl. chelated (!) micronutrients, and still hardly any algae appear. It's a fact for which I've got no explanation. It's bewildering.
On the other hand, many (incl. myself) would agree that organic pollutants support algae.


----------



## PARAGUAY (29 Jul 2022)

A bit simplistic in my non scientific view because all kind of set ups can get cyno gravel ,sand soil___


----------



## ElleDee (29 Jul 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> That sounds logical, and there are various papers on ecology which suggest it works like that in natural habitats.
> In tanks, it seems to be different. Consider what huge amounts of fertilizers many hobbyists pour in their tanks, incl. chelated (!) micronutrients, and still hardly any algae appear. It's a fact for which I've got no explanation. It's bewildering.
> On the other hand, many (incl. myself) would agree that organic pollutants support algae.


My background is in horticulture and generally speaking the conditions a plant grows in its natural environment is a starting point for tips on its cultivation, not the final word. This is especially true when we are talking about a growing environment as contrived as an aquarium. Supplementing plant nutrition is one of the most basic ways to enhance plant growth there is and the way you determine how much is optimal vs. too much is through experimentation, not ecological studies.


----------

