# Chihiros WRGB2 Pro has a separate 'white' LED channel but...



## adriancarr (16 Mar 2022)

I received the Chihiros WRGB2 Pro 45cm light today from China, so I thought I would do a quick test to confirm it has a separate 'white' LED unlike the original WRGB2.

The good news, is that it does have a separate white LED. I had feared it might just be the software simulating the presence of a white LED using the RGB channels.
The bad news is that the white LED isn't really full spectrum and the light still has a gappy spectrum, though it does improve on the RGB alone.

The below images were taken with spectroscope jerry-rigged to my mirrorless camera.  Camera settings were consistent for all images. I plan to extract more precise spectra from the images, but the current unprocessed images still illustrate the  results pretty well. The AI Prime Freshwater spectrum shows what a full spectrum LED aquarium light looks like. I included the CFL spectrum for calibration purposes, as it has bands from mercury at particular wavelengths: 436nm and 546nm.

The gappy spectrum isn't an issue for growing plants, though it will affect how accurately colours appears. Chromatic aberration (CA) can also become an issue when there are discrete wavelengths with gaps between them, especially for those who wear strong glasses (which I do). 

I hope people find this useful. It's a beast of a light, with some limitations.

Adrian


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## Maf 2500 (16 Mar 2022)

Do you think yellow shrimps and fish are going to look very natural under this light? Doesn't look that much of an improvement over regular RGB.


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## adriancarr (16 Mar 2022)

Maf 2500 said:


> Do you think yellow shrimps and fish are going to look very natural under this light? Doesn't look that much of an improvement over regular RGB.



That depends if the shrimp are yellow because they reflect yellow light (e.g. 580nm) or if they look yellow because they reflect both green and red light. Adding the 'white' LEDs definitely makes the colours look different, and probably better. The white LED fills in the gap a bit between green and red, so it should look better, but it is difficult to assess how much. I unfortunately don't have a planted/stocked aquarium at the moment to see how it looks.


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## Ria95 (17 Mar 2022)

Very nice, thank you for sharing your work. I wonder if the gaps for the 'white' leds  don't come from the  leds also being very peaky? In other words the phosphors on the leds are "full-spectrum" (marketing  keywords) but  the radiation emitted between the peaks was too low to be captured on your camera. The white really looks less bright compared to others.

This will would still produce very saturated colors but at least provide a smal filler for shades of  cyan, green and orange instead of circus colors only. Hope they make for better lights in person but for a majority of the target buyers  the colors will anyway end up with saturation and contrast 210% for social media.


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## oreo57 (18 Mar 2022)

Ria95 said:


> Very nice, thank you for sharing your work. I wonder if the gaps for the 'white' leds  don't come from the  leds also being very peaky? In other words the phosphors on the leds are "full-spectrum" (marketing  keywords) but  the radiation emitted between the peaks was too low to be captured on your camera. The white really looks less bright compared to others.
> 
> This will would still produce very saturated colors but at least provide a smal filler for shades of  cyan, green and orange instead of circus colors only. Hope they make for better lights in person but for a majority of the target buyers  the colors will anyway end up with saturation and contrast 210% for social media.


Photos fairly common for low  cri high k whites.
Double band in red is a bit odd.


Depends on the phosphors used.
The " all" spectrum sort of confirms the white only spectrum.


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## adriancarr (18 Mar 2022)

oreo57 said:


> Photos fairly common for low  cri high k whites.
> Double band in red is a bit odd.



The double band in red is something I see from my Macbook screen through a spectroscope, but not other displays or lights I've tested. 
There seem to examples in the literature of multi-peaked red phosphors doped with Pr3+ (Sun et al, 2020), so I guess it is something similar.

I have  ordered some blue (460-475nm) and yellow (590-595nm) 2-3W LEDs and I'm going to see if I can improve the colour rendering and general look of the light. The blue has a lower wavelength than I wanted, I was looking for more of a blue-green 480-490nm. The light is perfectly nice as it is, I'm just tinkering with it out of curiosity.


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## oreo57 (18 Mar 2022)

adriancarr said:


> The double band in red is something I see from my Macbook screen through a spectroscope, but not other displays or lights I've tested.
> There seem to examples in the literature of multi-peaked red phosphors doped with Pr3+ (Sun et al, 2020), so I guess it is something similar.
> 
> I have  ordered some blue (460-475nm) and yellow (590-595nm) 2-3W LEDs and I'm going to see if I can improve the colour rendering and general look of the light. The blue has a lower wavelength than I wanted, I was looking for more of a blue-green 480-490nm. The light is perfectly nice as it is, I'm just tinkering with it out of curiosity.


You may find this interesting


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## adriancarr (18 Mar 2022)

oreo57 said:


> You may find this interesting


Thanks for the interesting paper. It seems there is a real lack of phosphors that emit between 460-500nm (based on fig1 in the paper). I'm not clear if they are difficult to produce or if manufacturers don't bother developing them as colour vision (cones) in the human eye are least sensitive in this range. It does seem like most white LEDs (blue LED with phosphors for green/red light) have a dip in this region.


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## oreo57 (18 Mar 2022)

adriancarr said:


> Thanks for the interesting paper. It seems there is a real lack of phosphors that emit between 460-500nm (based on fig1 in the paper). I'm not clear if they are difficult to produce or if manufacturers don't bother developing them as colour vision (cones) in the human eye are least sensitive in this range. It does seem like most white LEDs (blue LED with phosphors for green/red light) have a dip in this region.
> 
> View attachment 184685


Not the 95+ cri whites.
Anyways the current way around it
2 different blue pumps, one phosphor pack.
Bridgelux cob.



Luxeon " fresh fish" one blue and phosphors.


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## oreo57 (18 Mar 2022)

Fun w/ phosphors..





						Yujileds - High CRI LED Leader
					

High CRI LED Leader




					www.yujiintl.com
				




JUST for fun on Friday..
Why there is no "purple" or "violet" only deeper blue..





						TM-30-18 Test LED | YUJILEDS
					

TM-30 metric is first mentioned in 2015 as TM-30-15, which is defined by Illuminating Engineering Society (IES), providing quantified measurements on overall average properties and describing a method for evaluating light source color rendition. TM-30-18 is the latest released version.




					www.yujiintl.com
				











						The color purple is unlike all others, in a physical sense
					

The 'royal color' does indeed stand apart from the rest.




					www.zmescience.com
				





> The more observant among you have noticed that cone cells that respond to the color red also produce a signal for parts of the visible spectrum corresponding to blue. And purple is a mix of red and blue. Coincidence?! No; obviously.
> 
> The thing is, while every color you perceive looks real, they’re pretty much all just hallucinations of your brain.





> Scientifically, *purple is not a color because there is no beam of pure light that looks purple*. There is no light wavelength that corresponds to purple. We see purple because the human eye can't tell what's really going on


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## adriancarr (18 Mar 2022)

oreo57 said:


> Not the 95+ cri whites.
> Anyways the current way around it
> 2 different blue pumps, one phosphor pack.
> Bridgelux cob.



Thanks. I've ordered some of the above Bridgelux Thrive LEDs to try: 3500K, 4000K and 5000K. Unfortunately, I couldn't find the 2700K or 6500K.


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## oreo57 (18 Mar 2022)

adriancarr said:


> Thanks. I've ordered some of the above Bridgelux Thrive LEDs to try: 3500K, 4000K and 5000K. Unfortunately, I couldn't find the 2700K or 6500K.


Yes that has been the universal problem.. Availability only on paper.
Not to long ago I believe some were at Digikey or Mouser..
Yea here..





						BXRE-65S1001-C-74 Bridgelux | Optoelectronics | DigiKey
					

Order today, ships today. BXRE-65S1001-C-74 – LED Lighting COBs Engines Modules Chip On Board (COB) series White, Cool Square from Bridgelux. Pricing and Availability on millions of electronic components from Digi-Key Electronics.




					www.digikey.com
				



5000k are always available.

You can always go the more expensive route of the "fresh fish" COB's.
Actually a really interesting pairing is Fresh fish/crisp white..
Crisp white has some violets chips inside to "brighten" white (flourescence) but runs warm at about 3500K.

Keep in mind 2 things
1) Chips below like 4500K are  judged (CRI) against an incandescent light
not sunlight.
2) Natural doesn't always reflect as "punchy".. just err natural.


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## adriancarr (19 Mar 2022)

I asked Chihiros support for the colour spectrum of the WRGB2 pro. They replied after almost 3 weeks with what appears to be a relabelled plot for the WRGB2 (which doesn't have a 'white' LED).  A disappointing response from them.


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## adriancarr (19 Mar 2022)

oreo57 said:


> Yes that has been the universal problem.. Availability only on paper.
> Not to long ago I believe some were at Digikey or Mouser..
> Yea here..
> 
> ...



I went for some strip modules from Digi-Key BXEB-L0280Z-50S1000-C-C3 Bridgelux | Optoelectronics | DigiKey

The Luxeon COBs look interesting, I'll take a closer look.


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## Hanuman (19 Mar 2022)

@chihirosaquaticstudio If you are reading this... might be a good time to chime in.


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## Wookii (19 Mar 2022)

adriancarr said:


> I asked Chihiros support for the colour spectrum of the WRGB2 pro. They replied after almost 3 weeks with what appears to be a relabelled plot for the WRGB2 (which doesn't have a 'white' LED).  A disappointing response from them.
> 
> View attachment 184713



I just saw that on their forum - clearly not the right spectral distribution graph!


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## neil frank (22 Mar 2022)

For the past week, I have been emailing chihiros about the pro.  In fact, they sent me the spectra and PAR data  before it was posted on  their ChihirosAquaticStudio. 
Yesterday,  I asked them to check with their engineers to confirm the labeling of these test results. Also to present the spectrum &PAR: with 0% white and only for white.


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## FISHnLAB (27 Sep 2022)

Any news on this? I'm looking for the best lighting option for my new build. I just want the highest CRI/RA and the most accurate colour reproduction with plenty of power and spectral control via app or controller. Thanks.


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## dw1305 (27 Sep 2022)

Hi all, 


FISHnLAB said:


> I'm looking for the best lighting option for my new build. I just want the highest CRI/RA and the most accurate colour reproduction with plenty of power and spectral control via app or controller. Thanks.


I'll add in @oreo57 , he is your best bet for a technically accurate answer. 

cheers Darrel


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## FISHnLAB (27 Sep 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'll add in @oreo57 , he is your best bet for a technically accurate answer.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Roger that and thank you sir👍.


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## oreo57 (28 Sep 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Any news on this? I'm looking for the best lighting option for my new build. I just want the highest CRI/RA and the most accurate colour reproduction with plenty of power and spectral control via app or controller. Thanks.


Ahhh tricky question.. Do you want a factory one or diy?
Anyways one of the closer ones is the AI Prime freshwater.
Plotting it into RAYCAL to the best of my ability  I came up wit ha base output of 5400K and 94 CRI.
Still has the "normal" cyan dip unlike real high CRI white leds.





Bridgelux high cri cob.6290k 98 CRI




A minor disclaimer CRI is obsolete.
The catch is though the closer the cri is to 100 the less "downgrading" is possible in the tm-30 system.
TM-30 Simplified - DMF Lighting

Simple RGB arrays will have a R(g) of over 100 but a R(f) under 100 by a fair amount
R(f) is the new "CRI" part R(g) lists deviations in saturation of colors.


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## FISHnLAB (28 Sep 2022)

oreo57 said:


> Ahhh tricky question.. Do you want a factory one or diy?
> Anyways one of the closer ones is the AI Prime freshwater.
> Plotting it into RAYCAL to the best of my ability  I came up wit ha base output of 5400K and 94 CRI.
> Still has the "normal" cyan dip unlike real high CRI white leds.
> ...


Thank you very much for those measurements, it is much appreciated👍. 

Probably just a factory one as although I have tried LED reflow and other build projects before, I am currently focusing on learning and mastering planted aquariums right now and my flashlight and LED hobbies are on the backburner. Although a lightboard filled with Yujis or Nichia Optiwhites would sure put everything on the market to shame... 

Yes, the Prime Freshwater is at the top of my list I am just not sure I can tolerate the shimmer of a point-source style light. I may risk it but, not sure yet. 

What are my best options for standard bar/line array style lights? Is Chihiros the only high end option that fits my criteria? If so what is the best model? 

Yes, I am aware of TM-30 but, CRI is still widely used and still has some relevance imo. Deviation from the black body locus, or lack there of, is very important in my flashlight hobby so as not to get a greenish or magenta tinted beams.

Thanks again for all of your help. Hopefully you can help me pick the best option for my new build👍...


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## oreo57 (28 Sep 2022)

Shimmer is controlled by surface agitation.

Magenta is the " preferred" aquarium tint as is exaggerated reds in " normal" lighting.
Just a side comment

Ignoring the " cyan issue" most white with some red green blue diodes can be spectrum tweaked to higher cri.
A compromise between high cri and exaggeration is any light with say 8000 k whites and 660 nm red

Your diy effort could barely take an afternoon..once the parts are gathered









						YUJILEDS® CRI 98 18W 2835MX Constant Current LED Linear Module - 10pcs
					

YUJILEDS® SunWave™ technology succeeds in broadening the spectrum coverage to 400nm - 730nm, which is 40% more coverage than a standard LED spectrum, in addition, this technology eliminates the sharp blue peaks then achieves the homogeneous spectral power distribution hence it mimics 95%...




					store.yujiintl.com
				




Oddly 36 v and they don't list if they are constant current or voltage driven.

Will get back to stock lighting but again any simple white/blue red green with the 3 seperate channels is fine.
A light with RGB secondary or low ( not the major par producer) is best
6450k, 96 cri,
0.7/1/1/6
 blue/green/ red/8000k white  ratio

Raising green or raising red  slightly just adds a green or red tint with minimal impact on cri. May impact tm-30 or the studio" standard TLCI.


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## oreo57 (28 Sep 2022)

Addendum about the Yuji strips posed above. The led use a violet emitter as the pump.
Rest is all done by phosphors.
Now the catch is 1) efficiency is lower than blue pump emitters so more heat less light
2) They have a tendency to fade faster both the pump and possibly the blue phosphor.


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## FISHnLAB (28 Sep 2022)

oreo57 said:


> Shimmer is controlled by surface agitation.
> 
> Magenta is the " preferred" aquarium tint as is exaggerated reds in " normal" lighting.
> Just a side comment
> ...


Yes but, unfortunately one often needs high flow in a large planted tank so at least some surface agitation will always be there. That said, I'm not fully against shimmer, I am just worried it will get annoying as this tank is going in my main living room where I spend most of my time and where my home theater system is. 

Yes, I too prefer magenta tint(under the black body locus) vs green tint(above it) if I have to have any. In general home lighting use though you want no tint or right on the bbl, pure white(CCT dependent of course). In aquariums, plant growth aside, I also prefer no tint but, can deal with magenta if it helps the plants grow. I don't however like strong magenta or blurple like what some of the traditional cheap plant grow lights have. This is where having spectral control really shines. Just dial it in to ones liking. 

Yes, I know, it's more that all of my soldering gear is put away and I'm not really looking to get into a light build project right now. I also want some of the features offered in the controller and app based factory lights and I can't get that with a DIY option. 

So, ultimately I think finding the best factory option is my path forward. Maybe in a couple of years when I am further along in my learning with fish and plant keeping I can get into trying to build a custom aquarium light with the ultimate colour rendition. 

Thanks again for all of your help Oreo👍.


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## FISHnLAB (28 Sep 2022)

oreo57 said:


> Addendum about the Yuji strips posed above. The led use a violet emitter as the pump.
> Rest is all done by phosphors.
> Now the catch is 1) efficiency is lower than blue pump emitters so more heat less light
> 2) They have a tendency to fade faster both the pump and possibly the blue phosphor.


Where does Nichia Optisolis stand? The ones I have are nicer then the Yujis I have to my eye(I only have the 95+ CRI Yujis though). I have a custom flashlight with a 4000K Optisolis in it and it's colour rendition is amazing. The same lighting they use in some high end art galleries apparently...

I would like to see an aquarium light built with the new Nichia Hortisolis... 



			Hortisolis™ Lighting | NICHIA CORPORATION


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## oreo57 (29 Sep 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Where does Nichia Optisolis stand? The ones I have are nicer then the Yujis I have to my eye(I only have the 95+ CRI Yujis though). I have a custom flashlight with a 4000K Optisolis in it and it's colour rendition is amazing. The same lighting they use in some high end art galleries apparently...
> 
> I would like to see an aquarium light built with the new Nichia Hortisolis...
> 
> ...


A 4000k 97cri bulb measured against a 6500k "standard" (D65) has a cri of like 53..
As you can see there is a catch to this.
Now I've run high cri 4000k's over my now defunct 55gal.
It has nice color rendering but imparts that "tungsten look" to the tank. Many would find it too err "yellow".

As human nature goes they would sell few lights using the likes of the Hortisolis.
It looks to be a blue/green/phosphor converted red light..
There is an arguement to make about phosphor converted red leds being more beneficial than just adding red or deep red diodes.
Plenty of people have used what the Chinese call "full spectrum" 3 watt leds in diy arrays.
Fluval uses "pink" which I assume is a phosphor converted diode high in red.

I don't doubt there are nicer looking diodes than the Yujis just as there are a ton of not nicer looking diodes 
For most people it would probably be splitting hairs yet orders of magnitude different than what they were used to.\





						LED test / review - Nichia Optisolis 3000 / 5000 K - ultra high light quality, even with high performance in mid-power class | BudgetLightForum.com
					






					budgetlightforum.com
				






> I also want some of the features offered in the controller and app based factory lights and I can't get that with a DIY option.


Well depends on what you need.  Some like the 
 corallux storm or bluefish mini have a lot of features..

I personally just had some drivers/controllers built to spec for relatively cheap.
Now they are stripped down to bare minimum as I wanted. No storms,lightning alarms ect..but functional.
Dig around the world and there are some pretty amazing people..
Unfortunately that was "then" now is different.


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## Wookii (29 Sep 2022)

oreo57 said:


> A 4000k 97cri bulb measured against a 6500k "standard" (D65) has a cri of like 53..
> As you can see there is a catch to this.
> Now I've run high cri 4000k's over my now defunct 55gal.
> It has nice color rendering but imparts that "tungsten look" to the tank. Many would find it too err "yellow".
> ...



Are these Optisolis LED's similar to the Sunlike ones we discussed in this thread: FUN high CRI LED strips

I stumped up recently for a couple of the Sunlike strips and controller here:









						LumiBarTW-112-4098+ Toshiba-SSC TW LED Strip Zhaga Sunlike CRI98 white 2700K+3500+5000K 990lm 24V 112 LEDs 11.02" module (1060lm/ft 12W/ft)
					

3 channel Tunable White SunLike LED module: 2700K, 3500K and 5000K Natural light spectrum with CRI98+ 24VDC operation for easy installation Very bright, up to 1060lm/ft




					www.uk.lumistrips.com
				




The strips have three different colour temp LED types on that can be independently controlled, so I figured they would provide the widest possible spectrum whilst also 'adjustment to taste'. I've not yet had chance to get them set up, which I hope to do in a few months.


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## oreo57 (29 Sep 2022)

Wookii said:


> Are these Optisolis LED's similar to the Sunlike ones we discussed in this thread: FUN high CRI LED strips
> 
> I stumped up recently for a couple of the Sunlike strips and controller here:
> 
> ...


Optisolis vs sunlike..Both use a violet pump (Optisolis high k  @ around 420, not sure about low k, Sunlike, can't detrming violet wavelength)  . Phosphor packs seem to differ by the data.
optisolis top


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## FISHnLAB (29 Sep 2022)

oreo57 said:


> A 4000k 97cri bulb measured against a 6500k "standard" (D65) has a cri of like 53..
> As you can see there is a catch to this.
> Now I've run high cri 4000k's over my now defunct 55gal.
> It has nice color rendering but imparts that "tungsten look" to the tank. Many would find it too err "yellow".
> ...


I wouldn't use 4000K for an aquarium, that is just my preferred temp for flashlights so I had this one built in 4000K. Optisolis is available in most CCTs. I would go 5000 - 7000K if I were to use them for an aquarium light. 

You are above my knowledge base with that part. I know next to nothing about grow lights specifically. Most of my knowledge pertains to high end "white" LED's for home lighting and flashlight use. I just noticed Nichia makes a grow specific emitter the Hortisolis and figured I would bring it up. 

Yes, once you are to that level of lighting you are splitting hairs really. I can definitely see the difference between say a 90+CRI/80+RA Nichia 219B R9080 and a 98+ Optisolis though.


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## FISHnLAB (29 Sep 2022)

oreo57 said:


> Well depends on what you need. Some like the
> corallux storm or bluefish mini have a lot of features...





oreo57 said:


> I personally just had some drivers/controllers built to spec for relatively cheap.
> Now they are stripped down to bare minimum as I wanted. No storms,lightning alarms ect..but functional.
> Dig around the world and there are some pretty amazing people..
> Unfortunately that was "then" now is different.


Never heard of them, I'll have to look them up.

Yeah, things may be harder now. It's ok, I'm really not looking to get into a custom light project right now anyway. I'm probably going to jusy buy a factory option. The AI Prime Freshwater and Chihiros WRGB 2 Pro are at the top of my list. Any others I should consider? I still have to check out a suggestion from my thread(Aqua-Grow) too...


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## Wookii (29 Sep 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> AI Prime Freshwater and Chihiros WRGB 2 Pro



I have both light (well the older WRGB II) - both are great lights, but very different form factor and colour rendition.


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## oreo57 (29 Sep 2022)

Wookii said:


> e:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting modules.. 
Nice to have 2x the 5000k diodes.
Curious about all the extra "stuff" on the boards.

Uses constant voltage but are those constant current drivers on board?
Doesn't look like normal resistors you'd expect to see.

Expensive controller if it just a a simple 24v PWN controller.. but not horrible.








						PowerController V2 Control Unit Casambi Classic | the leading LED-shop by LUMITRONIX
					

Powerful and extremely flexible control unit with Casambi support for many luminaire types




					www.lumitronix.com
				





> Up to 10 A can be switched via the output channels (1x 10 A / 2x 5 A)
> For controlling constant voltage LED modules (output voltage from 12 - 30 V)
> Input voltage depending on LED module (12 - 30 V)


Soo no constant current drivers on board or it is a weird system. Seen it used though (rare) , shutting off (via pwm) power to a "proper" driver to dim it.
I've had questions about this methodology that were never answered.


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## FISHnLAB (29 Sep 2022)

Wookii said:


> I have both light (well the older WRGB II) - both are great lights, but very different form factor and colour rendition.


Thanks for the reply Wooki👍. Can you please go into further detail? It would be much appreciated. Any chance you have a pic of both setups with as much of the same conditions as possible?


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## Wookii (29 Sep 2022)

oreo57 said:


> Expensive controller if it just a a simple 24v PWN controller.



Its a wifi app controlled controller if you didn't spot that. The app looks designed more for advertising display an dpro usage, but looks like it should give lots of control options for timer and ramps.


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## oreo57 (29 Sep 2022)

Wookii said:


> Its a wifi app controlled controller if you didn't spot that. The app looks designed more for advertising display an dpro usage, but looks like it should give lots of control options for timer and ramps.


No I got that.. I understand it wants to build a universe like others of its kind.. like "Hue" and a dozen other brands.
you can buy Chinese "versions" for 1/4 (or less)  that price though.
This is only 3 channels but you get my point.
Amazon product
4 channel..








						Wi-Fi RGBW LED Controller - Alexa/Google Assistant/Smartphone Compatible - 5 Amps/Channel
					

This Wi-Fi RGBW LED controller lets you operate RGBW LED strip lights with your Alexa- or Google Assistant-enabled devices or your smartphone. Link the Smart Life app by Tuya with your Amazon Echo, Google Home, etc., and adjust brightness, color, white or color-changing modes (scenes), or turn...




					www.superbrightleds.com
				




Not saying it is equivalent though.
Most Chinese interfaces are horrible in my "limited" experience though German and American apps seem to be catching up if you listen to reefers complain about Moebus in Radions or GHL Mitras's


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## Wookii (29 Sep 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Thanks for the reply Wooki👍. Can you please go into further detail? It would be much appreciated.



The RGB combination chips used in the Chirhiros units (also used in similar lights from ADA, UNS, Week Aqua etc) give superb colour rendition, and real 'pop' to aquariums. They do require a little tailoring, otherwise that 'pop' can look a little too over saturated and artificial. 

My only criticism is that whilst, the colour rendition is very good, and a lot wider than the incredibly peaky colour spectrum graph suggests, it is apparent that there is an under-emphasis of certain colours between those peaks such as amber and certain greens. 

However it's one of those things, once you'd had a light with those sorts of saturation characteristics, you can't go back to white LED's very easily as everything looks washed out. The anology I use is it's like water your first high definition blu-ray (or 4K these days) and then trying to go back to VHS.

That said I still want to find a light that accurately replicates natural sunlight, which is why these finds of @oreo57 always interest me, and why I stumped up cash to test out the Sunlike LED strips.



FISHnLAB said:


> Any chance you have a pic of both setups with as much of the same conditions as possible?



I don't I'm afraid, and the colour rendition is incredibly difficult to capture on camera.


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## FISHnLAB (29 Sep 2022)

Ok, this looks interesting and you can get a wifi controller too. What do you guys think?... 









						UNIQ FS 900
					

Aufgrund von gestiegenen Rohstoffpreisen und Transportkosten, müssen wir den Preis der UNIQ FS Reihe leider um ca 5% anheben. Es tut uns sehr leid…




					aqua-grow.de


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## FISHnLAB (29 Sep 2022)

Wookii said:


> The RGB combination chips used in the Chirhiros units (also used in similar lights from ADA, UNS, Week Aqua etc) give superb colour rendition, and real 'pop' to aquariums. They do require a little tailoring, otherwise that 'pop' can look a little too over saturated and artificial.
> 
> My only criticism is that whilst, the colour rendition is very good, and a lot wider than the incredibly peaky colour spectrum graph suggests, it is apparent that there is an under-emphasis of certain colours between those peaks such as amber and certain greens.
> 
> ...


Thank you, that was very helpful. What about the AI Prime Freshwater? Where does it stand? Judging by this thread it has a much fuller spectrum..


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## Wookii (29 Sep 2022)

oreo57 said:


> No I got that.. I understand it wants to build a universe like others of its kind.. like "Hue" and a dozen other brands.
> you can buy Chinese "versions" for 1/4 (or less)  that price though.
> This is only 3 channels but you get my point.
> Amazon product
> ...




Depends what they do I guess. I think with that dedicated controller I should be able to set on/off and ramp times for each channel independently.  I thought that might make for quite a good sunrise/sunset schedule start fading the 2700K LED's on first then fade on the 3500K LED's, and finally the 5000K LED's, then fading the 2700K and 3500K down as the 5000K ramps up to max.


----------



## Wookii (29 Sep 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Thank you, that was very helpful. What about the AI Prime Freshwater? Where does it stand? Judging by this thread it has a much fuller spectrum..



Sorry, pressed Submit before mentioning the Prime. I love the Primes, great little lights, nice interface, huge amount of output and great form factor. They do use bog standard white LED's though. I have to turn all the warm white LED's off though for acceptable colour rendition. You won't get anywhere near the saturation of the RGB chip lights, but its as good as white LED lights get in my experience and testing (probably thanks to the separate R, G and B LED's.

I think you mentioned not liking shimmer above though - the Prime will give you loads of shimmer as its very much a point source light - where as the WRGB II is a panel light and wont produce any shimmer.


----------



## oreo57 (29 Sep 2022)

Wookii said:


> The RGB combination chips used in the Chirhiros units (also used in similar lights from ADA, UNS, Week Aqua etc) give superb colour rendition, and real 'pop' to aquariums. They do require a little tailoring, otherwise that 'pop' can look a little too over saturated and artificial.
> 
> My only criticism is that whilst, the colour rendition is very good, and a lot wider than the incredibly peaky colour spectrum graph suggests, it is apparent that there is an under-emphasis of certain colours between those peaks such as amber and certain greens.
> 
> ...


Going into personal preferences I'll "up the ante" so to speak. I'll raise your RGB  to Deep red/pc amber/cyan/royal blue/lime as to punchy w/ no dullness.
Sorry camera doubled the die count.
NOW the personal part.. Having both high cri whites (Luxeon Freh Fish COBS) High cri (sunplus luxeon 6500k) white with ancillary diodes in deep red royal blue (should be plain blue btw) and cyan
I STILL haven't decided what I like best.
You can get high CRI (and high  R(f)/Neutral R(g) running those 5 "colors' with no white. A very natural look.
You can also pop whatever color you want.
Which was my intent when I built it.


----------



## Wookii (29 Sep 2022)

oreo57 said:


> Going into personal preferences I'll "up the ante" so to speak. I'll raise your RGB  to Deep red/pc amber/cyan/royal blue/lime as to punchy w/ no dullness.
> Sorry camera doubled the die count.
> NOW the personal part.. Having both high cri whites (Luxeon Freh Fish COBS) High cri (sunplus luxeon 6500k) white with ancillary diodes in deep red royal blue (should be plain blue btw) and cyan
> I STILL haven't decided what I like best.
> ...



That looks like the ideal. I've always thought the RGB chips used by Chihiros et al, combined some amber, a couple of green of different peak wavelengths, a couple of red's of different peak, and a royla blue or two would fill the gaps. Well beyond my DIY skill level though!

Have you measured the output spectrum of your light?


----------



## oreo57 (29 Sep 2022)

Wookii said:


> That looks like the ideal. I've always thought the RGB chips used by Chihiros et al, combined some amber, a couple of green of different peak wavelengths, a couple of red's of different peak, and a royla blue or two would fill the gaps. Well beyond my DIY skill level though!
> 
> Have you measured the output spectrum of your light?


Yea 2 ways.. One using luxtools and the Z diodes in it 2) With a budget Thunder Optics spectrometer I picked up.
It's got this "thing" w/ the green band that I haven't got around to understanding. According to the builders it's a calibration thing but  I have a calibration file.
Example . early and crude capture of an led flashlight spectrum.



So till I find the file this is right from the creators of the leds..
NOTE this is with the deep red channel 100%. Normal percent is like 50 giving a much more "neutral" look.
I knew the design had excess red. I built one w/ 3 cyans in their place. Talk about punchy greens.
Anyways taming the red can get me a real neutral white as pure white on a wall..white.







3 CYAN  version.



As much as I consider cyan the "secret sauce" 3 was just too much though ADA affectionados may love it.



One red puck..



This shows the "white" possibilities of the 3 red puck.







yea doubt if Chihiros went that far .. One rgb for all makes a lot of COMMERCIAL sense..


----------



## FISHnLAB (29 Sep 2022)

Where do you guys think this light would stand compared to the Chihiros WRGB 2 Pro and Prime Freshwater?









						UNIQ FS 900
					

Aufgrund von gestiegenen Rohstoffpreisen und Transportkosten, müssen wir den Preis der UNIQ FS Reihe leider um ca 5% anheben. Es tut uns sehr leid…




					aqua-grow.de


----------



## FISHnLAB (29 Sep 2022)

Here is the writeup on it. There site doesn't work the greatest on mobile. It uses 9 different Emitters...


----------



## oreo57 (29 Sep 2022)

It's unique and has its own niche..
The stats and spectrum speaks for itself.
"MY" personal opinion.. the short cyan would be a deal breaker for me and it makes me sad


----------



## FISHnLAB (29 Sep 2022)

oreo57 said:


> It's unique and has its own niche..
> The stats and spectrum speaks for itself.
> "MY" personal opinion.. the short cyan would be a deal breaker for me and it makes me sad


Yes but, which of the three would you buy if you could only have one? Which do you think would make my dream tank look best? Which would offer the best user experience? What things should I think about that I may not have yet when considering the three? 

Sorry to ask so many questions and be a pest, you just clearly know a ton more about this topic and have much more experience with grow specific lights then I do so anything you can offer is helpful to me. I really don't want to buy two lights for this build and want to get it right the first time. This is my dream spare no expense(within reason of course) ultimate planted community tank build. This will be my centerpiece and only large tank for years most likely so this decision, all of them really, are very important to me. 

Thanks again for all of your help, all of you👍.


----------



## oreo57 (29 Sep 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Yes but, which of the three would you buy if you could only have one? Which do you think would make my dream tank look best? Which would offer the best user experience? What things should I think about that I may not have yet when considering the three?
> 
> Sorry to ask so many questions and be a pest, you just clearly know a ton more about this topic and have much more experience with grow specific lights then I do so anything you can offer is helpful to me. I really don't want to buy two lights for this build and want to get it right the first time. This is my dream spare no expense(within reason of course) ultimate planted community tank build. This will be my centerpiece and only large tank for years most likely so this decision, all of them really, are very important to me.
> 
> Thanks again for all of your help, all of you👍.


I want to like the aquagrow.. just can't.
Chihiros is too RGB for me . New RGBW has promise. Fair amount of reports of issues though in GENERAL not model specific.
Go back to the very first post and you will see why "I" like the AI Prime
It is in no way "perfect" though.
I am not you though. I've given you enough to see why I pick what I like..Does it fit your philosophy?

Anyways crunched the aquagrow in RAYCAL and compared generated spectrum to posted.
Somebodys numbers are wrong..Ignore chart set to  saltwater and ignore IR/UV blobs.. Technically they have some validity since they are listed diodes..BUT
not in THEIR chart.
Data doesn't include them. Even included doesn't change things much.
Oh 850IR is worthless AFAICT. Emerson enhancement is not reported, or not very strong in that range..Orphek used them for awhile, don't think they do anymore .
740-ish is arguably better.
The old lot of sizzle little steak motto seems to apply.
I'd need to see one in person but I trust my specs. Of course all channels can be shut off individually so there is that.
most people should find an enjoyable spectrum.


----------



## oreo57 (29 Sep 2022)

_I miseed/lost/or you never reported tank size._


----------



## FISHnLAB (29 Sep 2022)

oreo57 said:


> _I miseed/lost/or you never reported tank size._


Waterbox Clear 3620
900x500x450mm(LxWxH)
49.1US Gallon/186L

Filter : Fluval 307 or 407
UV Filter : Fluval UVC Inline
Heater : Ista 300watt Inline Heater
Temperature Controller : Inkbird ITC-306T WIFI
Powerhead/Wavemaker : AI Nero 3
CO2 : Inkbird Regulator with 5 pound aluminum tank and inline diffuser


----------



## FISHnLAB (29 Sep 2022)

oreo57 said:


> I want to like the aquagrow.. just can't.
> Chihiros is too RGB for me . New RGBW has promise. Fair amount of reports of issues though in GENERAL not model specific.
> Go back to the very first post and you will see why "I" like the AI Prime
> It is in no way "perfect" though.
> ...


Not sure yet but, I'm leaning towards the Prime FW for a number of reasons. The only thing that has me worried is the shimmer of a point source light. I generally don't mind shimmer and find it more realistic looking. I just worry it will get annoying when watching movies and such as the tank will be in our main living room which is equipped with a full home theater setup. Any insight on this?

Thanks for that it is helpful. It is weird the measurements are so off. It definitely is an interesting light and I'm sure I could tailor it to my liking but, it will likely be very expensive to get it shipped from Germany to Canada. I still am considering it though.


----------



## oreo57 (29 Sep 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Waterbox Clear 3620
> 900x500x450mm(LxWxH)
> 49.1US Gallon/186L
> 
> ...


You are best off w/ 2 ai prime fw if going with them.


----------



## FISHnLAB (29 Sep 2022)

oreo57 said:


> You are best off w/ 2 ai prime fw if going with them.


Yes sir, that is my plan as they only cover 24 x 24" and not very well from what I hear.


----------



## oreo57 (29 Sep 2022)

AI1
More examples..

AI2
want to go crazy Radion Freshwaters plus diffusers.. but that will really break the bank.

Aftermarket diffuser for AI..








						Prime Diffuser
					

FREE SHIPPING ON ALL DIFFUSERS!   (USA Domestic Only) Upgrade the lighting on your AI Prime 16HD with our full diffuser. This diffuser helps to blend and diffuse the LED light into a more uniform spectrum, resulting in a more natural shimmer and eliminating the "disco ball" effect. The diffuser...



					3dreefing.com
				




diffuser


----------



## oreo57 (29 Sep 2022)

Why are the video link previews soooo large?
Changed them to links,,


----------



## FISHnLAB (29 Sep 2022)

oreo57 said:


> AI1
> More examples..
> 
> AI2
> ...


Thanks again👍. 

Man, it is frustrating that no one makes a light without issues. I wish Fluval would just make a pro version of their Plant 3.0 with industry leading output, a much more diverse emitter array with no low CRI emitters and a much higher/wider emitter count, and true full spectrum output with world class colour reproduction. All of that in their IPX68 waterproof body, with industry leading 3 year warranty, and their nice app with full spectral, scheduling, and output control. I would pay almost whatever they wanted for that personally... One can dream😔...


----------



## Wookii (29 Sep 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Thanks again👍.
> 
> Man, it is frustrating that no one makes a light without issues. I wish Fluval would just make a pro version of their Plant 3.0 with industry leading output, a much more diverse emitter array with no low CRI emitters and a much higher/wider emitter count, and true full spectrum output with world class colour reproduction. All of that in their IPX68 waterproof body, with industry leading 3 year warranty, and their nice app with full spectral, scheduling, and output control. I would pay almost whatever they wanted for that personally... One can dream😔...



Just get a Chihiros WRGB II - you won’t be disappointed, and you won’t get shimmer. You won’t want shimmer in your living room, it makes a lovely dancing light show on your ceiling (and I love shimmer - I’ve gone to great lengths to source a point source RGB light from Week Aqua).


----------



## erwin123 (30 Sep 2022)

I am using WRGB2 (at the back) and WRGB2 Pro (in front) in my current 90P tank.  The Pro is better because of the additional W channel but the price differential is pretty large especially since the price of the original WRGB2 has been reduced (probably because of the competition). 

After using the Pro for a few months, I'm also going to disagree with earlier reports that the W channel leads to colours being washed out.  

Maybe in showrooms with the light still new and lack of knowledge of the best settings they were running 100/100/100/100 in which case I can understand why the colours look washed out.  But if you do some tweaking, you can get pretty pleasing colours at a higher brightness than the original WRGB2


----------



## FISHnLAB (30 Sep 2022)

Wookii said:


> Just get a Chihiros WRGB II - you won’t be disappointed, and you won’t get shimmer. You won’t want shimmer in your living room, it makes a lovely dancing light show on your ceiling (and I love shimmer - I’ve gone to great lengths to source a point source RGB light from Week Aqua).


Thanks, good to know. I had a feeling it might be a problem but, I have never owned a point source light before.

So, now I am reluctantly leaning towards the WRGB 2 Pro 90(although I am still going to price the Aqua-Grow). None to be found in stock in Canada though unfortunately. I will either have to wait for an authorized dealer to get stock or order from AliExpress. The saga continues...


----------



## FISHnLAB (30 Sep 2022)

erwin123 said:


> I am using WRGB2 (at the back) and WRGB2 Pro (in front) in my current 90P tank.  The Pro is better because of the additional W channel but the price differential is pretty large especially since the price of the original WRGB2 has been reduced (probably because of the competition).
> 
> After using the Pro for a few months, I'm also going to disagree with earlier reports that the W channel leads to colours being washed out.
> 
> Maybe in showrooms with the light still new and lack of knowledge of the best settings they were running 100/100/100/100 in which case I can understand why the colours look washed out.  But if you do some tweaking, you can get pretty pleasing colours at a higher brightness than the original WRGB2


Good information, thank you👍.


----------



## FISHnLAB (1 Oct 2022)

erwin123 said:


> I am using WRGB2 (at the back) and WRGB2 Pro (in front) in my current 90P tank.  The Pro is better because of the additional W channel but the price differential is pretty large especially since the price of the original WRGB2 has been reduced (probably because of the competition).
> 
> After using the Pro for a few months, I'm also going to disagree with earlier reports that the W channel leads to colours being washed out.
> 
> Maybe in showrooms with the light still new and lack of knowledge of the best settings they were running 100/100/100/100 in which case I can understand why the colours look washed out.  But if you do some tweaking, you can get pretty pleasing colours at a higher brightness than the original WRGB2


Hey, if you don't mind me asking how high(output) do you run your lights? How high do you think I would have to run a single WRGB 2 Pro 90 on a 90p(basically what I am getting) at most with CO2 jacked and a Dutch style fully carpeted aquascape? Just trying to get an idea how much power is needed. Thanks.


----------



## erwin123 (1 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Hey, if you don't mind me asking how high(output) do you run your lights? How high do you think I would have to run a single WRGB 2 Pro 90 on a 90p(basically what I am getting) at most with CO2 jacked and a Dutch style fully carpeted aquascape? Just trying to get an idea how much power is needed. Thanks.


For my 90P tank, I am currently running at:
WRGB2 Pro (front)  84/64/75/72
WRGB2 (rear) 88/68/80

For the WRGB2 Pro I had gone as high as 89/69/80/75 but I have since reduced it,  to see if I could reduce the amount of GDA I had to scrape off the tank glass every week.


----------



## FISHnLAB (1 Oct 2022)

erwin123 said:


> For my 90P tank, I am currently running at:
> WRGB2 Pro (front)  84/64/75/72
> WRGB2 (rear) 88/68/80
> 
> For the WRGB2 Pro I had gone as high as 89/69/80/75 but I have since reduced it,  to see if I could reduce the amount of GDA I had to scrape off the tank glass every week.


Oh wow, so high power can definitely be put to use considering the WRGB2 Pro 90 alone is almost 10000 lumens😳. I had better get a powerful light then. I was starting to think maybe I could cheap out and just get 2 of the Nicrew RGB-W 24/7s I have on my other tank but, their 90 equivalents are only 1650 Lumens each lol. So even 2 of them would likely limit me in the future on this high tech build. Either way, the Nicrew RGB-W's are still great lights for the money though.

I have contacted every authorized Canadian Chihiros dealer and none have stock on the WRGB2 Pro 90 unfortunately. I have a couple of months max before I am ready to fire it up so hopefully they get one. Otherwise, I may have to order from AliExpress or just get 2 x AI Prime Freshwater(they are much much easier to get as Waterbox sells them).

Thanks for your help👍.


----------



## rzn7z7 (1 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> I have contacted every authorized Canadian Chihiros dealer and none have stock on the WRGB2 Pro 90 unfortunately



fzaqua.com in the US sells the Pro including the 90 and per their shipping policy it looks like they'll ship to Canada....give AquaRocksColorado a call, too


----------



## FISHnLAB (1 Oct 2022)

rzn7z7 said:


> fzaqua.com in the US sells the Pro including the 90 and per their shipping policy it looks like they'll ship to Canada....give AquaRocksColorado a call, too


Thanks for the heads up, I'll look into it👍. Hopefully the shipping isn't prohibitively expensive and I also will need to check about warranty as I get 1 year warranty from Chihiros when bought at an Authorized dealer here in Canada.


----------



## FISHnLAB (4 Oct 2022)

Found another option but, it is in ADA Solar RGB pricing territory. Looks very nice though... 






						RSX FRESHWATER - Maxspect
					

maxspect




					www.maxspect.com


----------



## oreo57 (4 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Found another option but, it is in ADA Solar RGB pricing territory. Looks very nice though...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Might as well add the Mitras 7000 series in here:








						Mitras LX 7006, black, USA/CND - GHL USA
					

7006 Freshwater Model, six cluster, black, power supply included




					www.aquariumcomputer.com
				




Advantage to Mitras for including "reg blue" diodes to help fill the "cyan gap" of the Maxpect.


----------



## FISHnLAB (5 Oct 2022)

oreo57 said:


> Might as well add the Mitras 7000 series in here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for adding that Oreo👍.


----------



## FISHnLAB (10 Oct 2022)

oreo57 said:


> Might as well add the Mitras 7000 series in here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey Oreo or anyone else, what about commercial LED plant grow lights? Why don't more Aquarists use them? They seam to be a much, much better value then aquarium specific ones, have fuller spectrums for the most part,  and also generally have better quality and clearly listed components like Meanwell Power Supplies and Samsung Emitters. The only downside seams to be lack of spectral control really as even ramping timers can be a added to them. Am I missing something? Thanks👍.


----------



## FISHnLAB (10 Oct 2022)

Just as an experiment, I ordered a cheap one to try on some of my propagation tanks, installed it today, and it has me considering going with a quality one instead of an aquarium specific one for my new tank build as well. It is crazy bright with a high emitter count(224 total), has quite good colour rendition with quality Samsung 5000K, 3000K, 660nm Deep Red, & 730nm Infrared emitters, has good tint(just a touch of a yellow hue if I had to describe it which it should have due to the temp of its emitter selection but, no green or magenta), and came with a plethora of accessories including a nice temp/humidity weather station and ratchet pulley with carabiners. All for $50CAD(37EUR). I added an inline dimmer and that is that.

The only cons I can find/think of off hand are fast PWM(I don't think this is an issue on quality commercial lights but, this is bottom of the pile price wise and I used a cheap inline dimmer which could be causing it), lack of spectral control, and lack of a timer and ramping features(both can be achieved with an inexpensive wifi ramping timer however).

So, here I am considering scrapping all of these aquarium specific options we have been tanking about and going with a mid to higher end commercial LED Grow Light instead(not quite as cheap as the one in my experiment).

Hopefully we can get some opinions on this and some suggestions of things I may not of thought of or other cons to this approach. I have no issue buying an Aquarium specific product but, it seams silly not to consider this path due to the above mentioned benefits. What do you guys think?

Here are some pics of my experiment...

Edited for punctuation etc.


----------



## Wookii (10 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Just as an experiment, I ordered a cheap one to try on some of my propagation tanks and it has me considering going with a quality one instead of an aquarium specific one for my new tank build as well. It is crazy bright with a high emitter count(224 total), has quite good colour rendition with quality Samsung 5000K, 3000K, 660nm Deep Red, & 730nm Infrared emitters, has good tint(just a touch of a yellow hue if I had to describe it which it should be due to the temp of its emitter selection but, no green or magenta), and came with a plethora of accessories including a nice temp/humidity weather station. All for $50(37EUR). I added an inline dimmer and that is that.
> 
> The only cons I can find/think of off hand are the fast PWM from the dimmer I used(not a problem on quality commercial lights but, this is bottom of the pile price wise), lack of spectral control, and lack of a timer and ramping features(both can be achieved with an inexpensive wifi ramping timer).
> 
> ...



It is a sad fact that once you put the word “Aquarium” in front of any device name, it’s suddenly a licence to triple the price, so I’ll be interested to read about any option you come across.


----------



## FISHnLAB (10 Oct 2022)

Wookii said:


> It is a sad fact that once you put the word “Aquarium” in front of any device name, it’s suddenly a licence to triple the price, so I’ll be interested to read about any option you come across.


Hi Wooki, thanks for the reply👍. 

Yes, I have definitely noticed that😔. Hopefully we get some other perspectives and experience with this. Maybe I should have started a new thread on the experiment/topic...


----------



## oreo57 (11 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Hi Wooki, thanks for the reply👍.
> 
> Yes, I have definitely noticed that😔. Hopefully we get some other perspectives and experience with this. Maybe I should have started a new thread on the experiment/topic...


There is nothing inherently wrong with what you said.
Really mostly it comes down to err "aesthetic" and/or personal choices.
There are also plant lights with at least 2 channels.
Though you will see that once you get into channels, high power, quality large power supplies it may be cheaper but not as cheap as the difference in the low end.

_


I've personally never saw a cheap light with a Meanwell or UL listed power supply . _

Amazon product
I do find some interesting, like the above.
It is  "only"  65 watts per unit though.

I got to admit It don't find the tone appealing.
Science has proven the same thing btw.
Why???????
I mean candlelight is accepted but when it comes to daylight color rendition the " feeling" changes to a tone w/ exaggerated reds/ magenta and not yellow.
ADA favors green tints inc extra green metal halides.

I'd love to love them..just can't .
Not for a display tank.
Didn't even go into the " dynamic" aspects.






						Shop | Crescience
					

Products Archive | Crescience




					cre.science
				



These are not 6 channel $50 lights .. 

Point is they each have different target markets.
People complain the Ai primes are " too yellow"
How popular were " growlux" tubes and their rich color cast?
One area of agreement is they could provide more output for the $$$' s in aquarium lights.
Then again most tanks probably couldn't take it.


----------



## Wookii (11 Oct 2022)

oreo57 said:


> People complain the Ai primes are " too yellow"



They are if you run the warm white LED's - switch those off and you get a much better daylight balance, with the individual RGB's to add a little more pop (even more so if you don't need to run the cool whites at 100%).

I really wish AI would do a Prime with the white LED's switched out for some RGB LED's and use additional red, green and blue and amber LED's at different peak frequencies to infill the gaps in the spectrum. It'd be the perfect light!


----------



## FISHnLAB (11 Oct 2022)

oreo57 said:


> There is nothing inherently wrong with what you said.
> Really mostly it comes down to err "aesthetic" and/or personal choices.


Yes but, there are plant lights with all different types of spectrums and emitters used. If one wants a higher temperature or different aesthetic, they should pick based on the emitter selection used and provided specs(some use 6500K instead of 5000K for the cool emitter for instance).


oreo57 said:


> There are also plant lights with at least 2 channels.
> Though you will see that once you get into channels, high power, quality large power supplies it may be cheaper but not as cheap as the difference in the low end.


What do you mean by channels?


oreo57 said:


> _
> 
> 
> I've personally never saw a cheap light with a Meanwell or UL listed power supply ._


_I have found many with UL listed and several with Meanwell for as low as 60EUR. I can send you some links if you want. Here is just one example. Samsung and Osram Emitters & a Meanwell PS all for $66EUR...

LED Grow Light ,CHVEGLUZ CH1000 Plant Grow Light Full Spectrum with Samsung LM301B and Meanwell Driver for 3x3 ft Coverage High PPFD Grow Lights for Indoor Plants Seedling Veg Flower Growing Lamps https://a.co/d/6Guassm



_


oreo57 said:


> Amazon product
> I do find some interesting, like the above.
> It is  "only"  65 watts per unit though.



Ha, that's funny. That was the other choice to the one I bought. I may still buy it to compare...


oreo57 said:


> I got to admit It don't find the tone appealing.


It's all personal preference and the camera doesn't show tones well. I can tell you that it isn't too bad at all. Just a bit warm at maybe 4000K. Little to no green or magenta shift. If one wants cooler just pick a light with 6500K instead of 5000K cool emitters, blue may be beneficial too. I'll take a pic later showing it net to my RGB-W light.

Also, humans are very good at adapting to tone and colour temperature changes. Differences in tone are only really evident when comparing to another light source. Ones eyes will generally adapt to a new light source and no longer see the tone.


oreo57 said:


> Science has proven the same thing btw.


My research, when I was into lighting years ago, showed humans prefer magenta tones(below the BBL) over green. No idea if that had changed...


oreo57 said:


> Why???????
> I mean candlelight is accepted but when it comes to daylight color rendition the " feeling" changes to a tone w/ exaggerated reds/ magenta and not yellow.


I would guess that most aquariums are enjoyed in the evening hours though not at peak day. In the evening, the sun's colour temperature is quite warm with those attributes increased. Also, for anyone that has their aquariums in their living rooms, most use warmer lighting in there between 2700 - 4000K(2700 or 3000K is most common). So a 7000K aquarium light(just for instance) would look very out of place and be harsh on the eyes in the same room. Cooler colour temperatures are also high in blue light and have been proven to suppress melatonin production and cause various sleep and health issues(definitely not ideal in the room you are in before bedtime).

Lower wavelengths are also more damaging to our eyes and cause more issues long term.

Blue light also increases glare and less effectively penetrates particulate matter so it is a poor choice for street lights and headlights as well.

Knowing all of this and having all of my aquariums in my living room sways me towards warmer colour temperature lighting solutions overall. Even in the rest of my house, the coolest lighting I use is 5000K and that is only in work and laundry rooms. Living areas all use 2700 or 3000K and 4000K in the kitchen and hallways.


oreo57 said:


> ADA favors green tints inc extra green metal halides.


The ADA lights I have seen have a ridiculous spectrum imo and have hugely oversaturated and exaggerated colours nothing like real life. The analogy I think is valid is they look just like some modern phones amoled displays that exaggerate colours beyond real life. Personally, I want real colours that are rendered the way they are under natural sunlight. Not cartoon land exaggerated ones but, YMMV of course. I think a more balanced spectrum like the sun with less peaks and valleys is what to shoot personally.


oreo57 said:


> I'd love to love them..just can't .
> Not for a display tank.
> Didn't even go into the " dynamic" aspects.


We all have to like our displays...


oreo57 said:


> Shop | Crescience
> 
> 
> Products Archive | Crescience
> ...


That's funny as the AI Prime FW has one of the most complete and balanced spectrums of any light on the market as seen from the start of this thread. Yep, I think a lot just want a pure white. In my experience that means around 4500-5500K right on the black body locus... Definitely a little harder to get in a commercial grow light but, maybe not impossible... 


oreo57 said:


> One area of agreement is they could provide more output for the $$$' s in aquarium lights.
> Then again most tanks probably couldn't take it.


Yes, aquarium lights pricing is absolutely ridiculous. Everything in this hobby is hugely inflated it seams...


----------



## FISHnLAB (11 Oct 2022)

With all of that said, I still may buy an aquarium specific light for my new build(mainly for the ramping features and spectral control) I just think this topic deserves investigation/debate considering the ridiculous disparity between commercial grow light and aquarium light pricing. We are clearly being ripped off.

One thing is for certain for me, my propagation tanks will definitely have commercial grow lights over them going forward. This light is amazing for $37EUR and completely trounces anything in the aquarium field value wise. Aesthetics aside, it will likely grow plants better then any of them(including ADA) as well...


----------



## FISHnLAB (11 Oct 2022)

I think this article fits with this discussion. I find the part about red light loss in water particularly interesting. One might want to get a light with a heavily red biased spectrum considering...









						Choosing the best light spectrum for planted tanks
					

What is the best light spectrum for a planted aquarium? Is 6500k lighting the best for plants? (no) An in-depth read on tuning light spectrum for better color and pigmentation for your planted tank.




					www.2hraquarist.com


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## oreo57 (11 Oct 2022)

Any 6500k in an inexpensive fixture is a bad 6500k. 
Applies to most expensive lights as well.
Yes can be balanced w/ warm whites.

As to the Meanwell thing.. lights $99 not $50...
My feeble defense. .

My 55 had, over time, Luminous Devices 4000k high cri cobs, 5400k SORRA violet pump high cri cobs, and luxeon 6500  " fresh fish" high cri ( per luxeon 96+) cobs over it.
All looked good, differences were subtile if not err " together" more extreme if side by side.
If I never put the 6500's on I may have been quite unaware of the tonal difference.

Most do seem to want really either a tad blue white (8000k and above k terms) and/ or a hint of more red.
Finnex uses 8000k ( 7000k, I forget) and added blue and/ or red ( old fugeray clip on)
I doubt anyone would be unhappy w/ the color.


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## FISHnLAB (11 Oct 2022)

oreo57 said:


> Any 6500k in an inexpensive fixture is a bad 6500k.
> Applies to most expensive lights as well.
> Yes can be balanced w/ warm whites.


Yes, unfortunately companies like to cheap out and use low CRI emitters even though 90+ ones are easily available(same with in the home lighting world) but, pennies count and most customers don't even know what colour rendition is.


oreo57 said:


> As to the Meanwell thing.. lights $99 not $50...
> My feeble defense. .


That's Canadian pricing I linked. Its 66 Euros all in here in Canada and it goes on sale lower then that if you watch. Still pretty damn cheap if you ask me compared to anything aquarium related on the market that I know of. I mean try and find anything with 256 Samsung LW301B & Osram emitters, a Meanwell Power Supply, that puts out 16439 Lumens@100watts with a good plant spectrum and even boosted reds to compensate for red loss underwater. For comparison a Chihiros WRGB 2 Pro 90 only puts out 9250 Lumens and it burns 10 more watts(110 watts@100%) to do it. All at 6.5 times the price😳.


oreo57 said:


> My 55 had, over time, Luminous Devices 4000k high cri cobs, 5400k SORRA violet pump high cri cobs, and luxeon 6500  " fresh fish" high cri ( per luxeon 96+) cobs over it.
> All looked good, differences were subtile if not err " together" more extreme if side by side.
> If I never put the 6500's on I may have been quite unaware of the tonal difference.


Nice, that's some cool experiments. Maybe one day I will muster the motivation to build my own aquarium light.

My 3 gallon has a Nicrew RGB-W 24/7 on it that uses a mix of RGB and 6500K emitters so I have a direct comparison side by side. I know that it's a budget light but, it gives me an idea anyway. It definitely looks sharper and has less yellow cast overall due to the higher colour temp but, the cheap grow lights colour reproduction is still more then acceptable to me anyway(especially for a propagation tank).

Keep in mind I hate cool white too so I am biased on this topic. There isn't a single flashlight, light bulb, or fixture anywhere in my house that has anything higher then 5000K(well, I may have an old Surefire or two closer to 5500K) in it aside for my aquarium. 4500K is my preferred day/night compromise so it's what I shoot for in a daily use flashlight for instance. At night and when camping I would throw something at anyone who turns on anything higher then 4000K with 2000-3000K preferred lol.


oreo57 said:


> Most do seem to want really either a tad blue white (8000k and above k terms) and/ or a hint of more red.


Preference aside, if their aquariums are in their bedrooms or living rooms they must not like quality sleep lol. There are several studies on the detrimental effects of cool lighting. Some major cities have even retrofitted their entire streetlight grid due to not researching this first.


oreo57 said:


> Finnex uses 8000k ( 7000k, I forget) and added blue and/ or red ( old fugeray clip on)
> I doubt anyone would be unhappy w/ the color.


I might😁. Seriously though, my Nicrew looks great with its 6500K/RGB array(settings at 50%white/90%red/20green/25blue). So, maybe I can tolerate a bit cooler temps in an aquarium application when paired with RGB's. It would make it a lot easier if I could actually see some quality lights in person... Ah the joys of living in small town Canada😔...


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## oreo57 (11 Oct 2022)

Don't forget w/ RGB emitters the red and blue produce a lot of par but little in terms of lumens.

Let's look at lumens bigger brother.. lux.
Lumens/ m sq/ sec.

100 lux of low cri 6500k is 1.34 " par"

100 lux of  450/650 blue/ red diodes is 8.87 " par".

450 blue only 100 lux is  11.56 " par".
Close to an order of magnitude more  par per lux.







						Convert Lux to PPFD - Online Calculator |         Waveform Lighting
					

Online calculator to convert illuminance (lux) to PPFD (micromoles per second per meter squared).



					www.waveformlighting.com
				



Not defending pricing just clarifying.


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## FISHnLAB (11 Oct 2022)

oreo57 said:


> Don't forget w/ RGB emitters the red and blue produce a lot of par but little in terms of lumens.
> 
> Let's look at lumens bigger brother.. lux.
> Lumens/ m sq/ sec.
> ...


Good to know, thanks. I wasn't aware there was such a difference in PAR between the two.

I own a high quality Lux Meter(Extech HD450) but, no PAR meter... Yet😁. I wonder if anyone can chime in with a LUX reading of a Chihiros WRGB 2 Pro 90 at 100%?

This light I am currently testing(I will put a link at the bottom) is putting out over 30000LUX@12" on 100%. It is $36EUR full price but, goes on sale like most things on Amazon...

Deruikeer LED Grow Light Dimmable 600W, Full Spectrum Dimmable Grow Lights for Seedlings with Samsung Diode and Daisy Chain, Suitable for Hydroponic Indoor Plants Veg and Flower 3X3ft, No Noise https://a.co/d/emxvkJW



oreo57 said:


> Convert Lux to PPFD - Online Calculator |         Waveform Lighting
> 
> 
> Online calculator to convert illuminance (lux) to PPFD (micromoles per second per meter squared).
> ...


Roger that👍.


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## FISHnLAB (11 Oct 2022)

Judging by the chart this light looks like it wouldn't be quite as warm/yellow...





What ya think?


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## Wookii (12 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> What ya think?



Hard to tell from just the spectral graph, but greens might be lacking quite a bit (bear in mind rendition of green plants is aesthetically very important in a planted tank), and you might be quite close to your typical purple grow light.


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## FISHnLAB (12 Oct 2022)

Wookii said:


> Hard to tell from just the spectral graph, but greens might be lacking quite a bit (bear in mind rendition of green plants is aesthetically very important in a planted tank), and you might be quite close to your typical purple grow light.


Yeah, hard to say for sure. I'm going to guess it wouldn't be that low on green though. Here is the spectral graph for my current aquarium light on my 3 gallon. As you can see, the green part of the spectrum is only a little higher(that chart is taken with all channels on 100% though). I have the green portion of the RGB's at only 20% and the greens are very bright and vibrant. In fact, any more then that and the tank starts to look green biased throughout. But, it does have much lower yellow and orange so who knows I guess without seeing it in person.





I ordered a new light yesterday to try and will report back. I got it for $66EUR on sale. It is the larger and more feature laden 100watt version of the one I am currently using. I will likely be keeping this one as my main grow light for my basement. It will power a 29 gallon propagation tank and 4 - 6 domed propagation trays. This light uses 6500K instead of 5000K for the cool white emitters so should be a little cooler overall. It also has a built in dimmer. Here is it's graph and emitter selection(320 total) ...


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## FISHnLAB (12 Oct 2022)

I think this is applicable here as well.

This is the Spectrum Graph for the Fluval Plant 3.0...





As you can see, it is terrible. Any light I posted here and most of the much cheaper aquarium lights on Amazon offer better colour reproduction then it. Yet, many use it to great avail for growing plants and are quite pleased with it overall. It's worst critiques seams to be a yellowy cast or lack of coverage.

So, we need to keep in mind that we are somewhat splitting hairs here and it is really more about aesthetics. What I would really like to see, is a controlled experiment of a top end aquarium plant light against a high end commercial grow light that includes UV & IR to see how much better the actual grow light grows aquatic plants. I may get motivated to do this experiment myself in the future once I finish my new tank build...


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## Wookii (12 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> It's worst critique seams to be a yellowy cast or lack of coverage.



I used one for about a year, and that pretty much sums it up. (Very good app though).



FISHnLAB said:


> it is really more about aesthetics



Any basic light will grow plants without an issue if it has sufficient output, so yeah, choice for the aquarist is almost entirely about aesthetics (and a little about usability).


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## FISHnLAB (12 Oct 2022)

Here are the Spectrum Graphs for the ADA Solar RGB & Chihiros Vivid 2 just to touch on another point...

ADA



Chihiros



While these seam to be popular high end aquarium lights, I'm posting these to show an example of a ridiculous and artificial light spectrum. This is why they make the colours so exaggerated and oversaturated. They are basically boosting the red, green, and blue and leaving out other spectrums. This will render inaccurate and artificial colours not like the ones rendered by the sun(especially the missing spectrums) which I also included a spectral graph for. Some may think these lights look good but, they are definitely not accurate. They are akin to glow fish or other genetically modified for aesthetic reasons animals imo. Human created artificiality and not an attempt at mimicking nature. 

Sunlight



All of that said, I'm sure the above lights still make aquariums look vibrant and ok overall and I may even buy one but, they are far from accurate colour reproduction and I think that needs to be pointed out...


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## FISHnLAB (12 Oct 2022)

Wookii said:


> I used one for about a year, and that pretty much sums it up. (Very good app though).


Good to know, thanks for the input. Yes, the app looks very good. If only they would make a pro version with 2-3 times the emitters/power and a world class spectrum... One can dream😊. 


Wookii said:


> Any basic light will grow plants without an issue if it has sufficient output, so yeah, choice for the aquarist is almost entirely about aesthetics (and a little about usability).


Agreed. But, I do wonder how much better a quantity commercial grow light would grow aquatic plants compared to an aquarium specific one considering all the R&D that goes into tailoring them specifically to that task.


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## Wookii (12 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Agreed. But, I do wonder how much better a quantity commercial grow light would grow aquatic plants compared to an aquarium specific one considering all the R&D that goes into tailoring them specifically to that task.



Unless you are setting up your home set-up to grow commercial quantities of plants (in which case you'd grow them all emersed anyway) . . . no difference at all. There will be a plethora of other variables in the tank that will limit any gfrowth, long before the lighting spectrum does.



FISHnLAB said:


> While these seam to be popular high end aquarium lights, I'm posting these to show an example of a ridiculous and artificial light spectrum. This is why they make the colours so exaggerated and oversaturated. They are basically boosting the red, green, and blue and leaving out other spectrums. This will render inaccurate and artificial colours not like the ones rendered by the sun(especially the missing spectrums) which I also included a spectral graph for. Some may think these lights look good but, they are definitely not accurate. They are akin to glow fish or other genetically modified for aesthetic reasons animals imo. Human created artificiality and not an attempt at mimicking nature.



It comes down to personal preference at the end of the day. How many of the RGB based lights have you tested at home?

They can have a tendency to oversaturate as you suggest, but they are still head and shoulders better than any white LED based light out there. They may not render colours as accurately as the sun - and I agree when I get sunlight shining directly on my tank the colours look superb -  but unless you plan to have your tank outdoors, we have to wait for LED technology to catch up before we can achieve similar rendering indoors. Until it does, the RGB LED's (with careful adjustment) give as close to it as we can get at the minute, despite the apparent 'peakiness' of their spectral response graph.


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## FISHnLAB (12 Oct 2022)

Wookii said:


> Unless you are setting up your home set-up to grow commercial quantities of plants (in which case you'd grow them all emersed anyway) . . . no difference at all. There will be a plethora of other variables in the tank that will limit any gfrowth, long before the lighting spectrum does.


I don't know if I fully agree with that. I have read several reports of Aquarist's plants changing growth patterns, rates, colour representation, etc. when they bought and installed a new type of aquarium lighting. To me this proves that using different spectrums can definitely have an affect on a plants growth characteristics. But yes, there are definitely many other things that can have a effect too.


Wookii said:


> It comes down to personal preference at the end of the day. How many of the RGB based lights have you tested at home?


Just 2, and never a high end one like ADA, Chihiros, Twinstar, etc as I got into this hobby only 4 months ago and planted my first aquatic plant about 4 weeks ago. I am as green as they come but, learn faster then many.


Wookii said:


> They can have a tendency to oversaturate as you suggest, but they are still head and shoulders better than any white LED based light out there. They may not render colours as accurately as the sun - and I agree when I get sunlight shining directly on my tank the colours look superb -  but unless you plan to have your tank outdoors, we have to wait for LED technology to catch up before we can achieve similar rendering indoors. Until it does, the RGB LED's (with careful adjustment) give as close to it as we can get at the minute, despite the apparent 'peakiness' of their spectral response graph.


Honestly, I think it is likely a lack of someone trying to build the end all and be all aquarium light and get the right components to do it. Probably due to the cost of the finished product and the limited customer base that would buy it due to the final price. That and the top binned LED emitters go to large contracts and not to the likes of niche industries like aquascaping and fish keeping(I know this due to my other LED hobby). I don't think it would be that hard to build a light like the ADA Solar RGB that also use a bank of 98+CRI  white emitters, in different CCT's with a very complete spectrum, to fill in the gaps and result in a sun like spectrum. One could also theoretically add other colour emitters as well to fill in the gaps. There are some companies like the German one we were talking about earlier that are coming close to a Sunlike spectrum but, the above mentioned issues and others are possibly handicapping them. But, who knows for sure I guess and I only have a limited knowledge on this topic...


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## FISHnLAB (12 Oct 2022)

I just want to add that I have heard people complain about off colours after buying an ADA, Chihiros, etc and installing it on their tank. Things like my Lemon Tetras look orange or red now instead of yellow like they should. The reason for this is the missing parts of the spectrum with these lights as seen in the spectral graphs. I think this is a perfect example of the artificiality that these lights offer and why they rub me the wrong way.


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## FISHnLAB (12 Oct 2022)

Here is an example of someone building a lightboard with a closer to Sunlike spectrum. This is just a bank of Nichia Optisolis too so one could mix them with RGB, UV, & IR emitters for possibly an even better solution(especially with user enabled full spectral control) . I bet this would render colours much more accurately then any aquarium lighting on the market even without the added emitters...









						CRM-3050-Optisolis Mid Power Led MCPCB 3030 - Cutter Electronics
					

CRM-3050-Optisolis is a perfect small light engine approx 1000 lumens at around 6 watts, solderless option for centre wire draw 97-98 CRI




					www.cutter.com.au
				






			Optisolis™ Lighting | NICHIA CORPORATION


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## FISHnLAB (12 Oct 2022)

Yuji AP series would likely work great too...


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## Wookii (12 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> To me this proves that using different spectrums can definitely have an affect on a plants growth characteristics.



I don't think it proves anything. Did they all measure the change in PAR with the different light? I'd happily wager that if two lights are PAR matched with differing spectrums, you won't notice a jot of difference in aquarium plant growth once the plants are adapted in the context of a home aquarium. As I said before, there are far too many other factors that will have a far greater influence on growth.



FISHnLAB said:


> Just 2, and never a high end one like ADA, Chihiros, Twinstar, etc as I got into this hobby only 4 months ago and planted my first aquatic plant about 4 weeks ago.



Which two then if not ADA or Chihiros? I like it that you are getting your teeth into it, but you need to reserve judgement until you've seen a proper RGB light over your tank. I've got around 10 different aquarium lights in my search for the best colour rendition, and one yet (the DIY Sunlike strips) yet to try.



FISHnLAB said:


> I just want to add that I have heard people complain about off colours after buying an ADA, Chihiros, etc and installing it on their tank. Things like my Lemon Tetras look orange or red now instead of yellow like they should. The reason for this is the missing parts of the spectrum with these lights as seen in the spectral graphs.



Yes, I can agree with that to an extent, and has been my  only complaint of these lights, but it still looks miles better than any white LED based light I've tried to date, and you can't say:



FISHnLAB said:


> I think this is a perfect example of the artificiality that these lights offer and why they rub me the wrong way.



. . . if you haven't even seen one over your own tank? How can you say they rub you up the wrong way, and have such a strong opinion when you've never even tried one at home?


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## FISHnLAB (12 Oct 2022)

Wookii said:


> I don't think it proves anything. Did they all measure the change in PAR with the different light? I'd happily wager that if two lights are PAR matched with differing spectrums, you won't notice a jot of difference in aquarium plant growth once the plants are adapted in the context of a home aquarium. As I said before, there are far too many other factors that will have a far greater influence on growth.


Well, if you look at Terrestrial plants like Cannabis(what most of these lights are used for) there is definitely growth differences between different lights(even with matched PPFD). I don't know much about it but, the lights are constantly evolving with new types of emitters, UV, IR, etc and massive improvement has been made since the dawn of LED Grow lights. I don't see why aquatic plants would be any different but, I'm not a scientist to know for sure. Maybe Diana Walstad or the like can chime in on this.


Wookii said:


> Which two then if not ADA or Chihiros? I like it that you are getting your teeth into it, but you need to reserve judgement until you've seen a proper RGB light over your tank. I've got around 10 different aquarium lights in my search for the best colour rendition, and one yet (the DIY Sunlike strips) yet to try.


Nicrew RGB-W 24/7 and a Hygger. Yes, in house trail would be best but, I don't have thousands of dollars to waste, especially on poorly designed lights with ridiculous spectrums and hugely inflated price tags. I suspect they would just be even more exaggerated then my Nicrew which is the best off name aquarium light available in Amazon from my research. The main reason for this whole discussion is helping me pick a light for my new 90. I am trying to use a combination of others first hand experience and knowledge with my own knowledge of lighting mixed with experiments of actual aquatic plants. Honestly, I really don't care that much and might just cave and get a AI Prime FW or Chihiros but, I am a bit obsessive with getting the best I can for the money I want to spend and the inflated prices for poor spectrums has me obsessin lol. I'm not buying until black Friday as my new tank doesn't get here until the start of November so, I have time to kill learning and experimenting so to speak.


Wookii said:


> Yes, I can agree with that to an extent, and has been my  only complaint of these lights, but it still looks miles better than any white LED based light I've tried to date,


I don't doubt that but, that may be because very few if any quality aquarium lights exist. That's why I am looking at other options. I would gladly pay $1000US for a light like the Fluval 3.0 with a world class spectrum and emitter selection. Unfortunately that appears to not exist... This may push me to building my own quantum board out of some of the emitters I listed above but, I have too much on my plate to get into that right now.


Wookii said:


> and you can't say:. . . if you haven't even seen one over your own tank? How can you say they rub you up the wrong way, and have such a strong opinion when you've never even tried one at home?


There are several videos on YouTube and forums comparing these lights side by side on the same screen. It isn't hard to see the differences and compare the similar ones(or same exact light) to the way mine looks in house. There are also written and video commentaries from people who have owned the same or similar light to mine and upgraded to a Chihiros or the like and describe the differences, pros, & cons. I admit it might not be as good as an in the house trail but, it is plenty good enough to see the differences imo. It doesn't always take first hand experience nowadays to know if something is right for you in my experience(the internet and high quality displays and testing equipment have helped this a lot).


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## dw1305 (12 Oct 2022)

Hi all,


FISHnLAB said:


> Well, if you look at Terrestrial plants like Cannabis(what most of these lights are used for)


<"Tomato" growing"> has had a few <"mentions on the forum">.   I haven't had a look lately, but I think that the "grow your own" Tomato* growers have gone away from just using red and blue LEDS towards using more full spectrum "daylight" lamps?

*other plants may be available

cheers Darrel


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## FISHnLAB (12 Oct 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> <"Tomato" growing"> has had a few <"mentions on the forum">.   I haven't had a look lately, but I think that the "grow your own" Tomato* growers have gone away from just using red and blue LEDS towards using more full spectrum "daylight" lamps?
> 
> ...


Thanks for the links Darrel, they are interesting👍. 

Yes, tomato growers may be a good source of information. Same with Cannabis growers, maybe even more so(with it legal in my country and many others now, you will likely see a ton of new lighting research and products released). What would be really nice is to find a Cannabis and/or tomato growing expert that is also obsessed with Aquatic plants and fish to mentor me. You never know, maybe this person exists in my small town lol...


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## oreo57 (13 Oct 2022)

Wookii said:


> Until it does, the RGB LED's (with careful adjustment) give as close to it as we can get at the minute, despite the apparent 'peakiness' of their spectral response graph.


Any warm white/cool white containing light can achieve a "natural" look. As well as RGB/White or RGBA ect
"Normal" white leds have 2 weaknesses.. 1) Lack of power in the cyan range which btw RGB are also prone to this and 2) Low cri "cool" whites lack much in the way of red spectrum..
So technically any cool white plus red plus cyan (reg blue can substute a bit) can achieve a more "natural" spectrum than a RGB array.
Or a simple cw/ww array.
Fun with estimators. ONE catch CRI doesn't tell the whole story as to real color BUT that along with the spectrum tells a lot.
The yellow band in the "normal" leds (blue plus yellow = white) has a dulling effect on color. One of the reasons one color white arrays are dead to the aquarium world.
Well until someone puts "GOOD" whites in, like the CREE.  I wouldn't hold my breath and besides people usually prefer a bit more punch than "natural". Or utilizing the led "power" of dimming/ramping with ease.
Keep in mind there are almost infinite combinations with multiple colored LED lights.


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## oreo57 (13 Oct 2022)

One last one.. Sort of "state of the art" COB, not counting violet pump emitter styles.


			https://www.bridgelux.com/sites/default/files/resource_media/DS405%20Bridgelux%20V4HD%20Thrive%20Array%20Rev%20B%2020210831.pdf
		

It's only competition is daylight..


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## Wookii (13 Oct 2022)

oreo57 said:


> One last one.. Sort of "state of the art" COB, not counting violet pump emitter styles.
> 
> 
> https://www.bridgelux.com/sites/default/files/resource_media/DS405%20Bridgelux%20V4HD%20Thrive%20Array%20Rev%20B%2020210831.pdf
> ...



Can you produce matching graphs for the Toshiba Sunlike LED's that I'm going to test (assuming they're included in the software)? It would be useful to see:


Graph for 2700K version
Graph for 3500K version
Graph for 5000K version
Graph for all three versions combined (assume equal output)

The output of those Bridgelux does look good - are they available in an off the shelf product anywhere? (Google has drawn a blank for me)


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## Hufsa (13 Oct 2022)

Ive been following this thread, I dont always understand all the terms used but I know that I will want to get a better spectrum light for my tank some time in the future, either a premade light or learning how to DIY it. My personal goal would be to have something close to sunlight without big gaps in the spectrum, to have accurate color rendition. Plants will grow pretty much no matter what, so its just for my own personal satisfaction. Ive been looking around a little bit on the internet, keeping in mind that I have only the vaguest grasp on what the terms mean. The knowledge level in this thread is way beyond my current, so forgive me if this is a stupid question or already known about.
I came across these two products, and was wondering if one could make a custom aquarium fixture/pendant with these strips and the aluminium profile and accessories a little further down on the page.
I assume they would definitely not be able to go under a hood (needs waterproof rating for that), but could these otherwise be used as an aquarium light?
I added a set to the cart to see what kind of price range one would be looking at.
One of these Lumibars with the Nichia Optisolis 5000K 56cm plus the accessories (dont know if I selected the correct driver) works out to around €70.
Grateful if someone could explain it to me in relatively simple terms or just let me know if its not relevant


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## Wookii (13 Oct 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Ive been following this thread, I dont always understand all the terms used but I know that I will want to get a better spectrum light for my tank some time in the future, either a premade light or learning how to DIY it. My personal goal would be to have something close to sunlight without big gaps in the spectrum, to have accurate color rendition. Plants will grow pretty much no matter what, so its just for my own personal satisfaction. Ive been looking around a little bit on the internet, keeping in mind that I have only the vaguest grasp on what the terms mean. The knowledge level in this thread is way beyond my current, so forgive me if this is a stupid question or already known about.
> I came across these two products, and was wondering if one could make a custom aquarium fixture/pendant with these strips and the aluminium profile and accessories a little further down on the page.
> I assume they would definitely not be able to go under a hood (needs waterproof rating for that), but could these otherwise be used as an aquarium light?
> I added a set to the cart to see what kind of price range one would be looking at.
> ...



Yes, that's where I got mine from (UK Version of the same site is call Lumistrips). I got the Sunlike bar with the three different colour temp Sunlike LED's to test them out:









						LinearZ 112 Toshiba-SSC TW LED Strip Zhaga Sunlike CRI97 white 2700K+3500+5000K 990lm 24V 112 LEDs 28cm module (3500lm/m 40W/m)
					

3 channel Tunable White SunLike LED module: 2700K, 3500K and 5000K 24VDC operation for easy installation Very bright, up to 3500 lm per meter




					www.ledrise.eu
				




Then you just need a PSU and a controller (the controller bumps the price up a fair bit, but gives more scope for testing - you may not need that if you went for just one type of LED - just some sort of dimmer), along with the other bits you've mentioned. Connections on the board are push fit, so it makes for a nice plug-n-play kit to play around with. 

That's why I asked @oreo57 if he could produce the spectrum graphs for each LED CT so I could get an idea of the output of each, and all combined, for when I get around to playing with it.


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## Hufsa (13 Oct 2022)

Wookii said:


> Yes, that's where I got mine from


Ah I totally missed that you already had these! So you'll test them out for me, thanks @Wookii 😍😘
Ill just swoop in later to grab the results while having done none of the work 😊 You da bess


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## Wookii (13 Oct 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Ah I totally missed that you already had these! So you'll test them out for me, thanks @Wookii 😍😘
> Ill just swoop in later to grab the results while having done none of the work 😊 You da bess



Lol you know my looooonnnnngggg timescales - if you wait for that, they may have developed hydrogen fusion in a bulb by then so we can have proper mini-suns over our tanks!


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## VinzPhua (13 Oct 2022)

Started looking into high CRI LEDs a few weeks ago and foundthis awesome thread. Some of the info is over my head though.

I was considering the AI Primes and Hydras but found out about the fan noise which is a big concern for me. The rest seem to have gappy or peaky spectrums. 

Has anyone considered WaveForm Lightings Centric Daylight Linear LED fixtures? They have 95 CRI and 80+ R9 rating. Water and moisture will be an issue but they will be ways to solve that. CENTRIC DAYLIGHT™ 95 CRI T5 LED Linear Light Fixture

They have growlights too.


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## oreo57 (13 Oct 2022)

Wookii said:


> Can you produce matching graphs for the Toshiba Sunlike LED's that I'm going to test (assuming they're included in the software)? It would be useful to see:
> 
> 
> Graph for 2700K version
> ...


First..








						Seoul led attempts sun spectrum emulation
					

SunLike is a series of leds from Seoul Semiconductor, intended to producing light that closely matches the spectrum of natural sunlight (but check




					www.electronicsweekly.com
				



I'll get back to the above.

As to the Bridgelux Digikey has the cobs at $13 US for " 20 watts".

https://uk.farnell.com/bridgelux/bxre-65s2001-c-73/cob-led-cool-white-128lm-w-6500k/dp/3498865 
Farnell UK seems to carry them.


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## Wookii (13 Oct 2022)

oreo57 said:


> First..
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks



oreo57 said:


> As to the Bridgelux Digikey has the cobs at $13 US for " 20 watts".
> 
> https://uk.farnell.com/bridgelux/bxre-65s2001-c-73/cob-led-cool-white-128lm-w-6500k/dp/3498865
> Farnell UK seems to carry them.



Yeah, I've seen the COB's for sale, but assembly of a bare COB might be a bit above my skill level.  I was looking more for a ready made light fixture sporting them, or at least a plug and play kit with then already on a board with heatsink etc?


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## oreo57 (13 Oct 2022)

Wookii said:


> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I've seen the COB's for sale, but assembly of a bare COB might be a bit above my skill level.  I was loking more for a ready made light fixture sporting them, or at least a plug and play kit with then already on a board with heatsink etc?


Actually making led lights is simple. Making them look er "good" is not..
Take a 48V DC switching  power supply, a Meanwell ldd-hw, a cob, "heatsink plaster"  to glue said cob to a piece of aluminum of your choice, and wire and solder. 

Anyways as to Sunlike  graphs I do have the 5000K one..
Any of the rest will need to be added to my collection.
BTW these are all manually plotted and fed into RAYCAL
They are not always "lumen consistent" as that depends on drive current ect.
Point is ignore power data for now.




> * MIXING LIST
> ----------------------------------------
> myData sunlikeseoul5000.txt x1
> ----------------------------------------
> ...


I normally don't bother w/ generating graphs for lower K temps since I consider that band more accent color or sunrise/sunset shades.
With high cri leds in high color temps you are normally not going to improve "daylight" rendering much if at all.
And CRI is calculated using 2 different standards soo gets messy blending below say 5000k.

OH Bridgelux thrive comes in easy to use strips. Usually can't find any k temp higher than 5000k


			https://www.bridgelux.com/sites/default/files/resource_media/DS133%20Bridgelux%20EB%20Series%20Thrive%20Data%20Sheet%20081320%20Rev%20A.pdf
		


Same technique.. ps..driver...strip.. thermal silicone to attach to aluminum.

Dimming is a bit more complicated (read added expense) though  BUT can be as cheap as a manual dimmer for a few $'s.


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## oreo57 (13 Oct 2022)

An expensive (though at a normal 2:1 (CW/WW) ratio  not as expensive) partner to the Bridgelux.
Adds a bit of violet to the mix.
Sadly I've never seen the combo in person. I've intrigued some but not sure, since this is strictly COB form, if anyone ever used it.
On paper (pun intended) it's brilliant (again intended)..  
Stimulates fluorescence  in paper and cloth.





Old times.. 
3:1 mix..








						LED Build, 465 Watts (Bridgelux EB Strip LEDs, prev...
					

They are running at 900-1000mA  That is great, got mine running at the same mA and %  PAR meters are above budget for me since it would be a one time use.. But its good to know that my PAR is more or less the same when it comes to the Vero's :D  Thank you very much for sharing the info




					www.plantedtank.net


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## oreo57 (13 Oct 2022)

Remember S Sunlike below say 4500k is really seoul "candlelike"
Anyways fun mockup of  Crisp white/Bridgelux at various lumen ratios.


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## oreo57 (13 Oct 2022)

Using 3000/5000k


> * MIXING LIST----------------------------------------
> myData sunlike3000k.txt x1----------------------------------------
> * SIMULATION DATA----------------------------------------
> Luminous flux: 999 lm
> ...





> * MIXING LIST----------------------------------------
> myData sunlikeseoul5000.txt x1----------------------------------------
> * SIMULATION DATA----------------------------------------
> Luminous flux: 1,000 lm
> ...


Using the d65 standard any combination from 1:1 to 6:1 (CW/WW) has a cri of 72-82


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## FISHnLAB (15 Oct 2022)

Well, my new grow light showed up. It's pretty nice for the price. The CCT is a little cooler on this one as expected. The rendition is about the same, maybe a bit better. Definitely a bit less yellowy/creamy overall and a nice tint imo. The dimmer is perfect too and no visible PWM to boot. This one is a keeper I think and will be my new propagation lighting in my basement once my new 90 gets here...


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