# EI Dosing Issues



## Henry (20 Mar 2013)

Having bought the EI starter kit from Aquarium Plant Food UK, I followed their instructions for making the solutions for micro and macro nutrients. They are as follows:
Macro
4 tsp Potassium Nitrate
1 tsp Potassium Phosphate
6 tsp Magnesium Suphate
Micro
1 tsp Chelated Trace

These are dissolved into 500ml of water, and dosed at 10ml per 50l of aquarium water. Having had problems with yellowing and curling leaves on my H. Corymbosa Compact, and pale looking H. Tripartita, I doubled the dose of Potassium Nitrate & Phosphate. I am still having problems however, and am now getting algae growth or various kinds.

The tank is a 5g (25 litres) long. Substrate is fine gravel with a clay base. Lighting is 2x18w T8 fluorescent hung about 6" from the water's surface. Carbon supplied by Hagen Plant Gro CO2 (Elite Mini diffuser) and a liquid carbon supplement at full recommended dose.

Any insight would be appreciated. Apologies if I've missed any information. Thanks_________________________________________


----------



## ceg4048 (20 Mar 2013)

Hello,
		You need to identify the algae. The type of algae will tell you what the problem is. It is very likely that your flow/distribution is inadequate. Photos would help a lot.

Cheers,


----------



## Henry (20 Mar 2013)

Flow is provided by a 400l/h HOB filter (flow rate turned down, no surface disturbance). Coupled with the fact that the CO2 is diffused using a Hagen Elite Mini, I'm not sure how much more flow I could get away with, without detrimental effect on the tanks inhabitants. I have some Pethia Gelius in there at the moment, and they aren't enjoying the flow as it is.

Due to the quality of the camera on my phone, this is the only picture I could get that would accurately represent the washed out colour of the plant leaves. This is a regular H. Corymbosa:





A film tends to build on the surface. I imagine this is something to do with the puffers' messy eating habits.

The offending article close up. Staghorn, stringy green algae, and what looks like cladophora





Full tank shot:


----------



## ceg4048 (21 Mar 2013)

Hi,
   Thanks for the images. These are all flow/distribution related issues and so your priorities are in conflict. This has nothing to do with EI.

Turning down the flow in a CO2 injected tank is seldom ever a good idea. The surface scum and the stringy algae is a direct result of the poor flow/distribution. The fact that you are dosing EI levels of nutrients and still getting deficiencies confirms that there is poor distribution. The only way to resolve this conflict would be to reduce the lighting intensity. You already have much too much light for a 5 gallon tank. You can try double dosing but that may not solve all the issues.

Isn't that Hagen device a yeast based CO2 system? If so then there might be a possibility that the fish are uncomfortable due to the method of delivery instead of aversion to flow. What do you do at night with this unit, i.e. does it continue to inject gas, or do you have some kind of control to divert the gas at night?

Cheers,


----------



## Henry (21 Mar 2013)

I've upped the flow slightly and raised the light by another couple of inches. I think I'll just play the waiting game now.
The CO2 is on the same timer as the lights. Once the lights go out, the CO2 is no longer sucked into the impeller, and simply rises to the top in big, undissolved, bubbles. What do you mean by "uncomfortable due to the method of delivery"?

Do the dosing levels of Magnesium Sulphate seem right? It says that on the sheet, but it does seem awfully high for what is essentially a buffer.


----------



## ceg4048 (21 Mar 2013)

Hi,
  What I mean is that if flow and distribution are poor, the CO2 tends to have high concentration where the fish are and so they suffer toxicity while at the same time the gas does not reach the plants, so you get the worst case scenario of plants suffering CO2 deficiency but the fish succumb to poisoning due to excessive CO2.

I wouldn't really worry about the Magnesium at this point. None of these troubles can be blamed on Mg shortages. In any case, it's very difficult to know exactly what the Mg dosage should be because tap water often has Mg in it. MgSO4 is not being used as a buffer at all in this dosing program.  Any buffering that occurs is completely irrelevant. This powder is being used to deliver Magnesium to the plant tissues. Magnesium is a very important micronutrient. Please review the thread About Magnesium | UK Aquatic Plant Society

Cheers,


----------



## Henry (21 Mar 2013)

I doubt I would have distribution issues to that extent in such a small tank. Either way, the flow is up and the light is down (or....up...vertically) so we'll see how they get on.

My point with the magnesium is the sheer quantity that is being dosed. An essential micronutrient, certainly, but why does it need to be dosed at such high concentrations?


----------



## ceg4048 (21 Mar 2013)

Henry said:


> I doubt I would have distribution issues to that extent in such a small tank.


Well, my advice would be to stop doubting, because that is exactly what the tank is telling me when I see those photos combined with the symptoms you have reported. Again, under low light intensities the stresses on the plants are low, so it's easy to get away with poor flow/distribution, but when the lighting levels increase, so does the feeding stress, and so flow/distribution becomes more important than anything else, and is especially more important that the tank size.



Henry said:


> My point with the magnesium is the sheer quantity that is being dosed. An essential micronutrient, certainly, but why does it need to be dosed at such high concentrations?


The quantity of Magnesium Sulfate being dosed is not at all the same as the quantity of Magnesium being dosed. When you dose Magnesium Sulfate, only 10% of what you dose is Magnesium. See MgSO4.7H20??? | UK Aquatic Plant Society for additional details.

 Cheers,


----------



## Henry (21 Mar 2013)

I hope I don't seem flippant and ungrateful in my responses, it's just that I can see a great deal of flow happening in the tank. I'm almost tempted to remove the fish and turn the flow all the way up to maximum, just to prove you right. I couldn't possibly do this with the fish in; they would be extremely stressed with that level of movement.

I see your point with the MgS04. I suppose the majority of excess will be removed with the weekly water changes, even if the dose is high.

So, in conclusion, what you're saying is that I should increase flow. If I can't do that, decrease light so that the nutrient demands of the plants are reduced with it. I presume I should maintain my current fertiliser dosage?

Thanks for the replies.


----------



## ceg4048 (22 Mar 2013)

Hi,
	Flow distribution is a very difficult concept for people to grasp, and so people tend to concentrate more on the things that are more palpable.

Just because you see movement of the water, it does not automatically mean that your distribution is good. The water must move coherently, i.e., the individual particles of water must all move in the same direction, must meet barriers simultaneously, and must then change direction together to form a smooth even pattern, similar to what you can observe in a stream. If water particles on the left are moving to the right while at the same time, water on the right is moving to the left then their movements tend to cancel each other out and the result is stagnation and an overall net movement of zero. Therefore, CO2 and nutrients, which are dissolved in that water, have no choice but to follow that pattern and cannot reach the plants effectively. In a small tank, as you mentioned earlier, the problem should be easy to overcome, but HOB filters tend to just dump water back into the tank in a random pattern, so one could get lucky, or unlucky. That's why throttling back the HOB flow is not in the interest of plants, because it's making a bad situation even worse, from their perspective.

Again, it would be better to disable one of your bulbs, at least temporarily, because under low lighting conditions all this stuff becomes academic. You can even add a lot more floating plants to act as a "sunscreen" and to reduce the light stress. I agree with your summary conclusion and yes, maintain, or even experiment with increasing your dosages to see if it helps.

You definitely need to remove by hand all that algae. Scrub glass and hardscape and clean as much as possible and also change huge volumes of water as often as you can. Frequent large water changes helps both plants and fish.

Cheers,


----------



## Henry (22 Mar 2013)

I'm skeptical of how much improvement the increased flow will make, but I'm willing to try it; it's not like my plants are thriving at the moment anyway.
Subsequently, I have installed an AquaOne Aquis 500 canister filter (with duckbill to spread the flow. I'll change to a long spray bar when I have some money). If that won't supply good flow for the plants, I don't know what will. The fish are pretty much unaffected, since the flow is less concentrated than what the HOB produced.
I very much look forward to seeing some good results.

Thanks


----------



## scuttler (25 Mar 2013)

You could buy a cheap pvc pipe and make a custom spray bar the length of the tank. Very cheap.


----------



## foxfish (25 Mar 2013)

Good flow and even carbon distribution  is not necessarily about adding more lph! Adding a spray bar is a great idea though.


----------



## Henry (25 Mar 2013)

The new filter seems to be doing a very good job of circulating. The fish are happier, since the flow is less intense. Despite the mammoth l/h figure, the spraybar (with widened holes) does a good job of spreading it evenly.
I have also invested in a fairly basic pressurised CO2 setup. I'm using a disposable Clarke welding bottle and regulator from Machine Mart, with a bottle of water as a bubble counter. This runs into a Hagen Elite Mini, which does a good job of breaking the bubbles into a fine mist.

I think I'm on the road to success with my first hi-tech tank! I'll post pictures when it looks truly stunning


----------

