# Liquid carbon dosing



## The Don (10 Sep 2016)

Hi, I've been experimenting with easy carb dosing 4ml a day in my 240l tank for about over a month. This is along side marco ferting and 2 T5s on 7 hour timer.


Before Id say the majority of the plants I had were allot of cyrp, Xmas moss, floating plant that would have to be reduced weekly and a huge plant that did well from the left hand side of the tank. I wanted to try carpeting the middle of the tank so bought after advice from my local aquarium easy carb and carpeting plants that would take without too much trouble.  

After the initial cyrp burn I persisted but Im not over convinced things have changed for the better and wondering what my next step should be. Moss has definitely decreased I can almost see the underneath of the bogwood it was attached too. Carpeting plants haven't taken at all, the large plant of the right hand side although became lush green and healthier looking
Went seriously weak at the base and leaves would come off from the root. Floating plant slowed down loads although that could be because my red tiger lily has gone crazy mad taking over the top right hand side of the surface. Also the plants directly at the back in the middle of the tank has also enjoyed good growth (sorry not sure on the Id)

BEFORE:




 

AFTER:


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## mark4785 (10 Sep 2016)

The only plant that seems to visibly react to the dosing of Easy Carb are the various types of Anubias. A lot of plants don't seem to benefit and can even be killed by Easy Carb dosing such as Valisneira and Amazon Frogbit.

The best thing you could do to encourage proper plant growth would be to reduce the strength / intensity of your aquarium lights as it would appear that the high light that you have is causing the plants to try  to propagate at a rate that cannot be sustained due to a lack of co2 and/or nutrient intake.


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## The Don (10 Sep 2016)

Hi thanks @mark4785 , I've already turned off one of the T5 bulbs as I'm away on holiday! Won't be no dosing or ferting until I'm back (11days). Also did a big water change the night before leaving. If I continue to run on one bulb once I'm back and ferting I wonder whether I should continue to dose easy carb? I guess I'll be able to visibly see upon return. Also the two t5 bulbs I have one is the "plant growth pink" the other "marine white" the way I wired it the marine white is off, thus making the tank look a tad green looking. Do you think if I changed to just the marine white that would look whiter and still be suffice for my plants?


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## HiNtZ (13 Sep 2016)

That does look very bright for no CO2.

I'd say if you ditch the easy carbo for a pressurised system you could run with those lights fine. I know it's not ideal for everyone, but there you have it.

I used to dose 2% glute regularly in conjunction with CO2 - I didn't see any benefits apart from it melting any algae I might have had, and as such, that's all I use it for these days now.


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## Manuel Arias (14 Sep 2016)

mark4785 said:


> A lot of plants don't seem to benefit and can even be killed by Easy Carb dosing such as Valisneira and Amazon Frogbit.



This has not been fully proven. Seachem did a specific test with their equivalent product Seachem Flourish Excell, and they were not able to replicate the apparent death of _Vallisneria _with it. However, they did not publish the experimental conditions, so hard to say if the way in which they did it made the difference. In my opinion and experience, Excel is a good complement that helps at some stages of the aquarium. However, dosage must be done carefully. I would follow a strategy of small increments from very low dosage to normal dosage. This also helps to cut off the problem if plants start to suffer.

Noe that, however, EasyCarbo and Excel are not exactly the same thing. They are based in glutaraldehyde, but molecular speaking they are derivatives from it. Being more precises, EasyCarbo is polycycloglutaral, meanwhile Excel is polycycloglutaracetal.
One common problem from people looking for using cheaper cleaning products is, precisely, that they are not the same thing than Excel or EasyCarbo. Even between EasyCarbo and Excel, as said, there is a small difference. However, these changes are important to understand the different effect in the plants of each substance.

The problem with glutaraldehyde or similar is that they are molecular intermediates of the photosynthesis. The theory is that, by adding these by-products, the plants can absorb them and then follow the metabolic paths associated to them, saving the stage of photosynthesis. Under such conditions, plant can get carbon from a different source than CO2. However, because they are precisely intermediates of the photosynthesis, they can interfere in the normal physiology of the plants. For instance, a large doses of it in water can cause that the normal receptors of glutaraldehyde-like molecules in plants, derived from photosynthesis, become blocked. Then, the own products generated by the plants cannot follow the normal metabolic path, which can translate into some toxicity effect.
Plants can readjust their metabolism to the situation, but for that they require time, so that is why I think safest way is to follow a progressive strategy. Toxic effects between the products will be different because the degree of interference they cause will be also different. For long time people have been calling EasyCarbo as "excel" too, what has created lot of confusion. It is hard to say if the problem is really associated to one, the other, or both. And it is also hard to tell if the ones reporting the issues have actually followed the recommendations of the fabricants. For instance, Seachem recommends to employ half the dosis when you have sensitive plants. But you will not get that piece of info just reading the label of the bottle.

The photosynthetic inhibition also explains why these products have reported effect over certain algae: If they cannot readjust to this, then their photosynthetic path become blocked, killing them.

So, a good product but needs some care when using it.

Cheers,
Manuel


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## HiNtZ (15 Sep 2016)

Manuel Arias said:


> Noe that, however, EasyCarbo and Excel are not exactly the same thing. They are based in glutaraldehyde, but molecular speaking they are derivatives from it. Being more precises, EasyCarbo is polycycloglutaral, meanwhile Excel is polycycloglutaracetal.
> Cheers,
> Manuel



What exactly is in Excel aside from polycycloglutaracetal? I gave it a whirl a while back and again didn't really see any benefits, nor side effects (apart from the cost!). They aren't very forthcoming with their ingredients, and while I can appreciate the reasons behind that, for a chemical like that you would expect it.


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## Manuel Arias (15 Sep 2016)

HiNtZ said:


> What exactly is in Excel aside from polycycloglutaracetal? I gave it a whirl a while back and again didn't really see any benefits, nor side effects (apart from the cost!). They aren't very forthcoming with their ingredients, and while I can appreciate the reasons behind that, for a chemical like that you would expect it.



I do not see any need to Excel having anything else. I was also skeptical about it, so I did a test y my last aquarium, and in my opinion, it is good as a synergistic approach to CO2 injection that helps to some plants and reduce the needs of dosage. For instance, plants with more difficulties to retrieve DIC from water will benefit more from this, even with CO2 injection. And in my case was what happened: I have never got a 'Cuba' carpet developing so fast. I also understand that there are some risks with it, so having care in its use is important. Additionally, effects are not inmediate and depend also of the species you have, so different people can have different experience. Unfortunately, I cannot support this with data, as this was not a formal experiment. Some people have done experiments but results are also very different in each case.

What it seems very well verified is that Excel has a very negative effect in BBA at high dosage. During my testing I also noticed that less algae grew than I was expecting in an early tank. But again, this is just my experience and not an objective analysis.

Cheers,
Manuel


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## kadoxu (15 Sep 2016)

Manuel Arias said:


> For instance, plants with more difficulties to retrieve DIC from water will benefit more from this, even with CO2 injection. And in my case was what happened: I have never got a 'Cuba' carpet developing so fast.


I upgraded from Excel to CO2 injection a few days ago and was wondering about this. Do you mean you can keep using Excel while doing CO2 injection?



Manuel Arias said:


> During my testing I also noticed that less algae grew than I was expecting in an early tank.


I've also come across a lot forums and websites stating that slightly overdosing helped with algae as well. So I wouldn't be surprised if it really was a nice side effect.


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## HiNtZ (15 Sep 2016)

Manuel Arias said:


> I do not see any need to Excel having anything else. I was also skeptical about it, so I did a test y my last aquarium, and in my opinion, it is good as a synergistic approach to CO2 injection that helps to some plants and reduce the needs of dosage. For instance, plants with more difficulties to retrieve DIC from water will benefit more from this, even with CO2 injection. And in my case was what happened: I have never got a 'Cuba' carpet developing so fast. I also understand that there are some risks with it, so having care in its use is important. Additionally, effects are not inmediate and depend also of the species you have, so different people can have different experience. Unfortunately, I cannot support this with data, as this was not a formal experiment. Some people have done experiments but results are also very different in each case.
> 
> What it seems very well verified is that Excel has a very negative effect in BBA at high dosage. During my testing I also noticed that less algae grew than I was expecting in an early tank. But again, this is just my experience and not an objective analysis.
> 
> ...



It wouldn't be possible to run a a full blown, high light tank with just that and no pressurised though would it?

I mentioned in another thread, I use it where algae shows up - especially BBA. Usually goes white and the shrimp devour it! I've not had any algae for the past 6 months (touch wood), although have had some plant problems during that period and therefore the glute just sits in the dark corner of the cupboard where I'm hoping I won't need it because it stinks like an undertakers emporium.


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## Manuel Arias (15 Sep 2016)

kadoxu said:


> I upgraded from Excel to CO2 injection a few days ago and was wondering about this. Do you mean you can keep using Excel while doing CO2 injection?



Oh yes, that is why I tried the thing. The input of carbon from photosynthesis is different from this one, so they are not incompatible. The only "issue" is that as you are forcing the machine, plants needs to adapt the concentration of enzymes in their system to tackle the secondary source of carbon, what takes some time. However, I noticed improvement in some plants that face difficulties with CO2 injection only. As mentioned, this is just my experience, and I see some logic behind it, but this would need a proper experiment, which I am not in conditions to do right now (but I would like to).



kadoxu said:


> I've also come across a lot forums and websites stating that slightly overdosing helped with algae as well. So I wouldn't be surprised if it really was a nice side effect.



Indeed. In fact, I started using it really as prevention technique rather than for carbon fertilizing. In the new tank is where I tried the other idea of keeping lower dosage of Excel plus CO2 injection.



HiNtZ said:


> It wouldn't be possible to run a a full blown, high light tank with just that and no pressurised though would it?



In general terms, I would say "no". I think that is marketing. But I see it as a coadjuvant for most cases. In specific setups, composed mainly by _Cryptocorines _ or other specific plants, leaving CO2 injection and using this stuff can work pretty well. But as said, not as general rule.



HiNtZ said:


> I mentioned in another thread, I use it where algae shows up - especially BBA. Usually goes white and the shrimp devour it! I've not had any algae for the past 6 months (touch wood), although have had some plant problems during that period and therefore the glute just sits in the dark corner of the cupboard where I'm hoping I won't need it because it stinks like an undertakers emporium.



Yes, this is what I said: Many people reported positive effects in this sense. And I agree, as also makes some logic. Yes, the smell is bad...and I would try not to smell it too much. It is not really healthy for humans...

Cheers,
Manuel


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