# liquid carbon



## deadlus3d (25 Nov 2019)

Hello,

I am planning my new tank and I will not be buying a co2 system.
However I would like to try flourish liquid carbon.
Lights will be those that come with the tank, juwel 180 litres.

My question is do I need to add anything else other than the
liquid carbon?

I will use a fertilizing substrate under the gravel.

Regards


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## Thumper (25 Nov 2019)

Dont use liquid carbo as a CO2 source, because its not. In facts its an algicide.
Usually the "recommended dose" of a liquid carbos adds just 1,5mg/L CO2. Thats nonesense.


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## deadlus3d (25 Nov 2019)

Thumper said:


> Dont use liquid carbo as a CO2 source, because its not. In facts its an algicide.
> Usually the "recommended dose" of a liquid carbos adds just 1,5mg/L CO2. Thats nonesense.



it seems to get a lot of goid reviews on youtube.

so if i don't use lc i will stay low tech and reduce lights.
could you advise me on what other ferts i could use?
do i need something lime iron tablets?


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## MJQMJQ (26 Nov 2019)

Yep thumper is right.If ure using liquid carbon its also less effective and more expensive in long run tham bottled systems.Root tablets osmocotes in substrate are ok.Otherwise for water column dosing check out EI(estimative index) dosing.I erhmm use diluted wood vinegar and fish emulsion that will further decompose in aquarium to provide biofilm for my shrimp.


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## MJQMJQ (26 Nov 2019)

Citric acid does need to react with carbonate right to form co2.Check out the diy co2 using fire extinguisher on thia forum.


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## MJQMJQ (27 Nov 2019)

True but how do u know if u added too much acid?Ph testing?


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## MJQMJQ (27 Nov 2019)

For my tap water:
Total Hardness (as CaCO3) mg/L 
avg 61  
range 30 - 154

U get citric acid from the bakery section?


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## Tim Harrison (27 Nov 2019)

deadlus3d said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am planning my new tank and I will not be buying a co2 system.
> However I would like to try flourish liquid carbon.
> ...


Generally speaking LC isn't anywhere near as effective as a pressurised CO2 system, and it usually works out more expensive in the long run; most folk just tend to use it as an algicide.
Take a look at Tom Barr's Non CO2 Methods and The Soil Substrate Tank.
If you're interested in taking a look at the possibility of pressurised CO2 check out the fire extinguisher method and CO2 Art.


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## deadlus3d (27 Nov 2019)

I was more interested in using it short term, so basically high tec to gert plants established and then switch to low tech after two months.
The high tec bit would be withouth fish.

In this scenario would it be easier if I did diy wC02 production?


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## MJQMJQ (27 Nov 2019)

freewolny said:


> You have massive swings of hardness, is it because of rain periods in SG?


Certainly.The ph can swing as much as 1 which translates to tank disaster.Thats why i only change abt 10-20% of water.


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## Tim Harrison (27 Nov 2019)

deadlus3d said:


> I was more interested in using it short term, so basically high tec to gert plants established and then switch to low tech after two months.
> The high tec bit would be withouth fish.
> 
> In this scenario would it be easier if I did diy wC02 production?



Sure that's an option, you can use DIY yeast fermentation, or in that scenario LC might suffice if you choose your plants carefully; most from the Tropica "Easy" list should do okay. At the end of the day some carbon fertilisation is better than none, it just needs to be stable. After your plants have established you can then taper off gradually over a couple or more weeks.

Another scenario would be to use pressurised CO2 permanently at a low conc, just enough to change a drop checker green rather than lime green. It'll give you a "slow burner" slower growth, less maintenance, and a bit easier on the pocket, that is after the initial investment.


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## MJQMJQ (27 Nov 2019)

Tim Harrison said:


> Sure that's an option, you can use DIY yeast fermentation, or in that scenario LC might suffice if you choose your plants carefully; most from the Tropica "Easy" list should do okay. At the end of the day some carbon fertilisation is better than none, it just needs to be stable. After your plants have established you can then taper off gradually over a couple or more weeks.
> 
> Another scenario would be to use pressurised CO2 permanently at a low conc, just enough to change a drop checker green rather than lime green. It'll give you a "slow burner" slower growth, less maintenance, and a bit easier on the pocket, that is after the initial investment.


I heard DIY yeast can really vary in success?Tropica up to medium seems to do ok in low tech for me.


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## Tim Harrison (27 Nov 2019)

MJQMJQ said:


> I heard DIY yeast can really vary in success?


I've read that too 

Which reminds me, something else that could be an option is this, it's old skool but can work really well https://tropica.com/en/plant-care/co2/system-60/ and maybe perfect for what you want it for and not too heavy on the bank balance.



Or you could start as you mean to go on, and just go low-energy from the outset. It'll just take a little longer to establish. You can always plant heavily form the outset for immediate effect, which will also infer better biological stability and improve your chances of success.


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## deadlus3d (27 Nov 2019)

The reason for going high tech at first is to achieve decent plant growth within two months.
after reading some of the tutorials my understanding is that I should avoid adding ammonia to cycle but wait a couple of months
to let the tank cycle naturally. My view was that if I can accelerate the growth then the cycling process will be better and
certainly done by week eight?

The system 60 is a good option but I will have a 180l tank, do I need two of these?

I must state that I will stick with the filter and pump thats comes with the tank (Juwel 180l).


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## Tim Harrison (27 Nov 2019)

deadlus3d said:


> The reason for going high tech at first is to achieve decent plant growth within two months.
> after reading some of the tutorials my understanding is that I should avoid adding ammonia to cycle but wait a couple of months
> to let the tank cycle naturally. My view was that if I can accelerate the growth then the cycling process will be better and
> certainly done by week eight?


That's right, there's no need to add ammonia to a planted tank. Usually my low-energy soil substrate tanks cycle in around a week so it's safe to add critters immediately afterward, so long as it's done gradually. But it will take much longer to reach biological maturity and stability. I usually wait several weeks before adding critters, but that's more to do with letting plants establish and allowing the scape to mature so it's easier to iron out any problems should they occur.

The key with any method is to plant heavily form the outset, for several reason. In terms of tank cycling, the bacteria on plant roots and leaves etc will help inoculate the substrate and filter and cycle the tank. Also plant roots will oxygenate the rhizosphere and make conditions more conducive to growth. Additional CO2 will help accelerate plant growth and therefore the processes involved, but it's not essential to get a balanced low-energy system up and running, that's more a question of patience.


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## deadlus3d (27 Nov 2019)

slightly different question. I plant to populate my 180l with x 1 ancistrus, x 20 neon tetras and x 6 corys.

Would you say this is on the low end of stocking and if so how would you stagger the fish introduction?


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## Tim Harrison (27 Nov 2019)

That sounds fine. I would always stagger the introduction of critters, it gives time for the bacteria in the filter etc to keep pace. 
Some Ancistrus spp. seem to be partial to plants. But it maybe just a sign that they haven't been fed enough.


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## ian_m (27 Nov 2019)

freewolny said:


> You could potentially mix citric acid with baking soda, like the below:


Absolutely crap for CO2 production for fish tanks as the reaction proceeds too fast and will be exhausted in an hour our two. You either use sugar and yeast, which lasts a lot longer (and is cheaper) but if you insist you can use citric acid and baking powder but must devise a way to dose the acid into the bicarbonate.

Here is a handy guide to both methods.
https://www.co2supermarket.co.uk/diy-co2-kit-setup-instructions-guide-6.html

I would certainly add a third "trap bottle" to catch escaping yeast/citric acid as many people here have accidentally wiped out their tanks when the "reactor" contents have accidentally got into the piping and into their tank. Remember one way valves everywhere to stop the tank syphoning back into your equipment it the pressure falls. More than one person has ended up with a flood when a bottle springs a leak and tank starts syphoning back into the equipment.

As you cannot turn the CO2 off I would either run an air stone at night, when CO2 is not needed to degas the CO2 or a solenoid valve to vent to the atmosphere during the night. Issue with solenoid valve it makes the fish room small of lemonade or fermenting yeast when it vents.

Someone placed the yeast reactors in a bucket of water to keep reaction rate constant as they found they got algae outbreaks in the winter when their yeast reactor was colder. Ran wonderfully for ages until the aquarium heater he used to heat a bucket of water containing the yeast reactors melted a hole in the bucket and emptied the bucket out onto the floor.

Also someone had an exploding yeast container, as you do actually have to run with decent pressure in order to achieve decent CO2 injection rate.

I have run fire extinguisher bottled CO2 for 8 years now and am so glad I did not even attempt to use either of the above two methods due to all the drawbacks.


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## deadlus3d (27 Nov 2019)

i may stick with the 60 system linked previous but maybe use two for an 180 litre tank?


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## MJQMJQ (28 Nov 2019)

ian_m said:


> Absolutely crap for CO2 production for fish tanks as the reaction proceeds too fast and will be exhausted in an hour our two. You either use sugar and yeast, which lasts a lot longer (and is cheaper) but if you insist you can use citric acid and baking powder but must devise a way to dose the acid into the bicarbonate.
> 
> Here is a handy guide to both methods.
> https://www.co2supermarket.co.uk/diy-co2-kit-setup-instructions-guide-6.html
> ...


I agree the main prob with co2 is that it doesnt like to stay in the tank and escapes and the instant reaction prob means that there will be instant ph swing?Is the fire extinguisher co2 safe to make?Im concerned abt safety i dont wanna die HAHAHA.


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## ian_m (28 Nov 2019)

MJQMJQ said:


> Is the fire extinguisher co2 safe to make? I'm concerned abt safety i don't wanna die HAHAHA.


Not sure what you are talking about ?? We have 14 2Kg fire extinguishers here at work and nobody has died. I have 3 at home, one on tank and 2 spares and nobody has died.

Here is my tank one, being extremely boring sitting in the corner of the lounge doing it's CO2 type stuff 8 hours a day...


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## MJQMJQ (30 Nov 2019)

ian_m said:


> Not sure what you are talking about ?? We have 14 2Kg fire extinguishers here at work and nobody has died. I have 3 at home, one on tank and 2 spares and nobody has died.
> 
> Here is my tank one, being extremely boring sitting in the corner of the lounge doing it's CO2 type stuff 8 hours a day...
> View attachment 129388


Ok I read up about the safety part and seems its very safe unless u do stupid things haha. However for us a 2kg cylinder costs 90 SGD, cheapest 80.Replacement is also the same price.It seems expensive to me.Plus all the valves and gauges I think its about the same as a normal co2 system.What do u think?


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (30 Nov 2019)

Does anyone have or could you link to dose rates for citric acid?


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