# length of day with sunrise and sunset



## Ray_Norwich (16 Jul 2018)

Hi there, I'm setting up a smart led controller (from Hinterfield) on a Twinstart 450E to enable a sunrise and sunset schedule.  Question is, how long can my day be without causing algae problems or causing plants to become stretched?  The tank has been running for about 15 weeks and has been free of any issues to date running on 7 hrs @ 100%. (journal available  https://ukaps.org/forum/threads/dennerle-50l-scapers-tank.53011/)  I don't want to ruin things but would like to add a couple of hours to the length of day at lower settings if possible.   Rough cycle I'm thinking of is: 

11 - Noon : 10%
12  - 13: 25%
13 - 14: 50% 
14 - 18: 100%
18 - 19: 50% 
19 - 20: 25%
20 - 21: 10%
21 - 11: 0%

That would mean a ten hour day but six hours of this will be at 50% or less and only four hours would be at 100%.  

Any advice welcome, thanks in advance! 
Ray


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## zozo (16 Jul 2018)

Hard to say what will cause algae to grow in relation to light.. Depends partialy on the plant spp. you are growing.. For example  I have an outdoor aqaurium recieving sun light unshaded for the first part of the day from dawn to 4pm.. The sun commes up befre 6am pops over the roof at about 9am so 5am to 9am already daylight and till 4pm is full sun, than filtered/shaded daylight from 4pm till 10pm.. And it still doesn't grow massive amounts of algae i can not control. I have to pull out some easy to control clado now and then but for the rest it has non algae issues.. But it contains rather very fast growing true aqautics like several potamogetons and floaters and stuff.

Anyway that's compared to any indoor setup a enormous amount of light for a darn long periode without any significant issues. If that's possible outdoors  than indoors with artificial lights should be peanuts.. Again note: With the correct plant spieces grwoing under it..

This experience triggered my idea to place an indoor aqaurium under a sky light in the roof indoors and this one has the same periode with less intensity. But still much more intensity than any artificial light can bring.. Also this tank is relatively without algae issues.. At the highest point of the summer i have some GSA issues only on the Anubias standing in the for ground.. Hence wrong plant spp.? Yes actualy it is for this setup at that spot.. But i can controll it to dose easy carbo early summer to  mid summer.

Experimented a lot with long light periodes with artificial light only.. As said in combination with the correct plant spp. and considering the tanks maturity and the correct fert schedule. you can go pretty beyond the generaly adviced light schedules in the high range even without extra CO².

Only thing is... There is no schedule to give.. Aquarium is much to dymanicaly versatile.. No 2 are the same.. What works for me could be dissasterous for you and visa versa.

Bottom line... There are no specific one size fits all rules.. There is no spoon.... 

These things you have to figure out and experience solely by yourself. Where you can go with this..


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## Zeus. (16 Jul 2018)

Can be tricky as Zozo says as algea will use any light it can whilst plants have a minimum par they need to grow, so having light at low levels only increases the chance of algea. I try to keep the sunrise/sunset as short as possible unless actually using the room at the time. Trouble with most timers is that they are 24hr timers so each day the same. Beauty of the PLC is it has 7day timers so each day can be different with a bit of programming so go for longer on say sat and sunday. PLC isnt cheap. I have set my PLC up so at the press of a button the four kessil lights do a moonlight passover 

I would say only extend it if you are there, which can be tricky. keep the algea at bay as you have done so far.

I Glad you posted you Intensity settings for your Twinstar 450e as I was going to be asking you what settings you was using Ray as you tank is looking good  and thinking of getting Twinstar 450e for my scapers tank. Always good to have others settings for same tank/light esp seeing the results


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## Ray_Norwich (16 Jul 2018)

zozo said:


> Hard to say what will cause algae to grow in relation to light.. Depends partialy on the plant spp. you are growing.. For example  I have an outdoor aqaurium recieving sun light unshaded for the first part of the day from dawn to 4pm.. The sun commes up befre 6am pops over the roof at about 9am so 5am to 9am already daylight and till 4pm is full sun, than filtered/shaded daylight from 4pm till 10pm.. And it still doesn't grow massive amounts of algae i can not control. I have to pull out some easy to control clado now and then but for the rest it has non algae issues.. But it contains rather very fast growing true aqautics like several potamogetons and floaters and stuff.
> 
> Anyway that's compared to any indoor setup a enormous amount of light for a darn long periode without any significant issues. If that's possible outdoors  than indoors with artificial lights should be peanuts.. Again note: With the correct plant spieces grwoing under it..
> 
> ...




Thanks Zozo, I sort of suspected there was no one size fits all answer; that's often the right answer, but thought I would see what advice came back.    Sounds like you're running some great setups, have you posted journals on them?


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## Ray_Norwich (16 Jul 2018)

Zeus. said:


> Can be tricky as Zozo says as algea will use any light it can whilst plants have a minimum par they need to grow, so having light at low levels only increases the chance of algea. I try to keep the sunrise/sunset as short as possible unless actually using the room at the time. Trouble with most timers is that they are 24hr timers so each day the same. Beauty of the PLC is it has 7day timers so each day can be different with a bit of programming so go for longer on say sat and sunday. PLC isnt cheap. I have set my PLC up so at the press of a button the four kessil lights do a moonlight passover
> 
> I would say only extend it if you are there, which can be tricky. keep the algea at bay as you have done so far.
> 
> I Glad you posted you Intensity settings for your Twinstar 450e as I was going to be asking you what settings you was using Ray as you tank is looking good  and thinking of getting Twinstar 450e for my scapers tank. Always good to have others settings for same tank/light esp seeing the results



Glad you like the tank Zeus!  I ramped up the intensity from planting day at 50% to 100% over the first week or so and have had it at that level on seven hours a day since then (with a two week vacation where they were at 50%).    Thanks for the advice on longer day / lower, light;  makes sense, think I will err on the side of caution and simply have a 30 min dawn / dusk on either side of the usual seven hours at 100%.  It gives an extra hour to the day and shouldn't cause too many problems.


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## Ray_Norwich (16 Jul 2018)

Meant to say, like the moonlight passover (and tank) may have to try a PLC if I get my hands on the right tank with the right lights


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## zozo (16 Jul 2018)

Ray_Norwich said:


> Sounds like you're running some great setups, have you posted journals on them?



Thanks for asking.. Great maybe a great word, but it sure is fun.. 

Mission Bathtub 2018

The naturaly lit indoor tank mainly based upon mission bathtubs previous experiences is 2nd - The Stove... But haven't updated it for almost a year i see.. Have to some about that.. It's still running strong. Actualy stronger and more matured.


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## Zeus. (16 Jul 2018)

Ray_Norwich said:


> may have to try a PLC if I get my hands on the right tank



Had great fun making it with Ians help, plus doing the logo software programming was fun too Ian helped there also but mine wasnt cheap


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## Ray_Norwich (17 Jul 2018)

zozo said:


> Thanks for asking.. Great maybe a great word, but it sure is fun..
> 
> Mission Bathtub 2018
> 
> The naturaly lit indoor tank mainly based upon mission bathtubs previous experiences is 2nd - The Stove... But haven't updated it for almost a year i see.. Have to some about that.. It's still running strong. Actualy stronger and more matured.



Some ingenious work there Zozo, your home, garden and tanks all fit together beautifully, a seamless blend of terrestrial and aquatic nature.  Love the industrial style cabinet for the stove


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## Ray_Norwich (17 Jul 2018)

Zeus. said:


> Had great fun making it with Ians help, plus doing the logo software programming was fun too Ian helped there also but mine wasnt cheap



When you say wasn't cheap Zeus, roughly how much are we talking? (If I'm not being nosey) and are they intuitive to programme or need some expertise to get to grips with it?


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## ian_m (17 Jul 2018)

Ray_Norwich said:


> When you say wasn't cheap Zeus, roughly how much are we talking? (If I'm not being nosey) and are they intuitive to programme or need some expertise to get to grips with it?


Starter kit £170 in UK.https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/logic-modules/1653283/

This is a 240V 4 relay output device and licensed programming software, Logo!SoftComfort, that allows software download to the PLC. This is much better than my older PLC version 8 , as version 8.2 includes a web server so can render web pages that you can click/modify things via a browser and have nice pretty pictures.

The extra 8 relay output module here. £115.
https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/logic-modules/8251679/

Siemens Logo page here
https://www.siemens.com/global/en/home/products/automation/systems/industrial/plc/logo.html

So not cheap, but in my opinion (and probably Zeus's) worth every penny for reliability, great fun building and great fun programming.

My article on how to use a PLC to control your fish tank.
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/how-to-use-a-plc-to-control-your-fish-tank.42993/

Here is a simple light control, in Logo!SoftComfort. A single timer for lights on Mon, Tues, Wed, Thu & Sun 17:00 to 23:00 and Fri & Sat 18:00 to 23:45. Trivial easy peasy. Load into Logo PLC and run.




Same program, but programmed by front panel buttons. Not easy but doable for simple operations.




Here is mine under the tank. Been working over 2 years now no issue what so ever....though I am working on adding new "features" albeit a tad slowly...one day...




Really really really glad I made mine as one less thing to worry about, so I can concentrate on other issues with the tank...algae, fish, filtration, CO2 etc.


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## Zeus. (17 Jul 2018)

Ray_Norwich said:


> When you say wasn't cheap Zeus, roughly how much are we talking? (If I'm not being nosey) and are they intuitive to programme or need some expertise to get to grips with it?



Well I did have to buy some special tools which I didnt have for crimping also which have come in handy quite a bit. Also my PLC was the more expensive one as it can read an analog input also, plus it can adjust the intensity and spectrum of my kessil A160 tuna suns and the moonlight passover so needed to be able to switch then off individually so more outputs to switch so cost gets more. . Then there was the fert dosing plus LCO which I did like Ian use the good ones at about £50 each. But all in about £1000.00. was it worth it YES was great fun to do have done another for my scapers tank but just on the basic model. Great to be able to adjust it all from the PC over ethernet and Ians 'TankyMyTank' timer is great


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## Ray_Norwich (17 Jul 2018)

ian_m said:


> Starter kit £170 in UK.https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/logic-modules/1653283/
> 
> This is a 240V 4 relay output device and licensed programming software, Logo!SoftComfort, that allows software download to the PLC. This is much better than my older PLC version 8 , as version 8.2 includes a web server so can render web pages that you can click/modify things via a browser and have nice pretty pictures.
> 
> ...



Many thanks Ian, I'll keep this to hand - sounds like everyone that's gone for a PLC is pretty happy they did.  I'm hoping to get a new set up at home going over the next few months where a PLC might be more justified, currently I've been limited to fairly small tanks and mostly internal equipment (which is a bit limiting)


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## Ray_Norwich (17 Jul 2018)

Zeus. said:


> Well I did have to buy some special tools which I didnt have for crimping also which have come in handy quite a bit. Also my PLC was the more expensive one as it can read an analog input also, plus it can adjust the intensity and spectrum of my kessil A160 tuna suns and the moonlight passover so needed to be able to switch then off individually so more outputs to switch so cost gets more. . Then there was the fert dosing plus LCO which I did like Ian use the good ones at about £50 each. But all in about £1000.00. was it worth it YES was great fun to do have done another for my scapers tank but just on the basic model. Great to be able to adjust it all from the PC over ethernet and Ians 'TankyMyTank' timer is great



Sounds like an awesome setup Zeus, but you're well ahead of me.  I'm still working on getting a decent size tank on a cabinet! Still, some day


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## Zeus. (17 Jul 2018)

Ray_Norwich said:


> are they intuitive to programme or need some expertise to get to grips with it?



Highly technical requiring great expertise OFC   , straight forward really via the Logosoftcomfort, you can play with the demo program for free and use the same design on the fully functioning software just open the design you saved in the demo in the working product and upload to the PLC via ethernet, few of the setting are a little tricky but no big deal. Bit of a play with it and helps also with Ian and myself having one OFC. Ian does see it as a challenge to write some pretty good software design which is shares freely. The auto ramping/dimming light intensity/spectrum design he did for me works great and no need to change it just mod a few settings here and there over time to suit, just a copy and paste. Plus Ian is a Wizard on his electrical hardware knowledge


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## HiNtZ (11 Aug 2018)

My plants tell me when they want to go to bed by closing up. I just set it half hour after they start closing.


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## tiger15 (11 Aug 2018)

Many aquatic plants grow in forest edge, and get shade from high trees that change with season and time of the day.  So they don’t get full sunrise to sunset photo period.  Also, outdoor light intensity is much much higher, in the 1000+ par versus 200 to 300 par maximum in artificial high light.  Plants seem to be able to utilize co2 and fight off algae better at such intense light than artificial Iight.  I have a shrimp bowl that receives 4 hr direct window sunlight and there is no algae despite co2 going down to near zero at the end of sunlight period.


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## zozo (12 Aug 2018)

I've once experienced such a remarkable issue with a flowering lily in an indoor tank.. The tank stands relatively close to an east facing window.
For a day flowering lily, the flower opens in the morning and closes again in the evening during here 5 day lifecycle. Funny thing was, it was november, rather short daylight periode. Despite i fooled to lily with artificial light to flower in november in the late afternoon at about 5pm when dusk was setting outside.. The tank lights were still at 100% till after 8 pm but the flower was closing each day at the time the outdoor dusk was setting.


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