# Please help, so MILKY!



## ScaperJoe (15 Apr 2021)

Hi folks. My aquascape is 45 days in and its suddenly gone all milky. Is this a bacterial bloom and is it temporary? Is there anything I can do besides water changes and polishing pads to speed its removal? Here is is today and a week ago for comparison:

Today






And a week ago:





Let me know what information might help identify and solve the issue.

Any advice welcome. Thank you!


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## si walker (15 Apr 2021)

If I add Iron to my water it looks like that? Just a thought.


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## ScaperJoe (15 Apr 2021)

Ah OK, thanks @si walker  - didn't know that and I have been adding 'Seachem Iron' to my tank a few times a week. Not even sure if its necessary, just doing it because I have it. Maybe I'll try a week without and see what changes.


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## si walker (15 Apr 2021)

haha thats funny. i do the same. thought i had iron deficiency and just kept it up. i dont think you can do too much damage!
someone will be along in a mo and update us on iron facts, which i look forward too!
good luck mate.
si


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## Hufsa (15 Apr 2021)

If youre getting milky water from adding iron it is likely because the iron is reacting with phosphate and forming insoluble compounds. Seachem Iron is fairly weakly chelated if I remember correctly, you may have better success with a stronger chelator like DTPA or EDDHA


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## MichaelJ (15 Apr 2021)

+1 for Iron. I used to use Seachem Iron as well back in the day. And it always bugged me that it would cloud up the tanks - now I am just relying on what's in the Tropica Premium - which may not be quite enough.  Anyway, my tanks used to clear up in a day or two after adding the Iron.

Nice scape!



Hufsa said:


> If youre getting milky water from adding iron it is likely because the iron is reacting with phosphate and forming insoluble compounds.


Yes! It definitely appeared to be worse in the tank with the significantly higher phosphate level, if I remember correctly.


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## Hufsa (15 Apr 2021)

The milkiness itself isnt dangerous, but when they merge together you are basically removing a fair amount of two important plant nutrients, which is why I would avoid it. That being said the OP's milky water could also be a bacteria bloom


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## PARAGUAY (15 Apr 2021)

Your tank looks really nice Scaper Joe  no sign of iron deficiency so might be getting enough micro nutrients to your plants anyway. Maybe stop the "extra " iron and see if its a bacterial bloom


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## MichaelJ (16 Apr 2021)

Are those red ones flamingo Crypts? Sorry for being off topic. The plants looks really healthy!


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## ScaperJoe (17 Apr 2021)

Hufsa said:


> If youre getting milky water from adding iron it is likely because the iron is reacting with phosphate and forming insoluble compounds. Seachem Iron is fairly weakly chelated if I remember correctly, you may have better success with a stronger chelator like DTPA or EDDHA





Hufsa said:


> The milkiness itself isnt dangerous, but when they merge together you are basically removing a fair amount of two important plant nutrients, which is why I would avoid it. That being said the OP's milky water could also be a bacteria bloom



Thanks for this @Hufsa . I may even have a combo of the iron+phosphate situation and a bacterial bloom. I think I should have stopped adding the filter bacteria supplement a long time ago, but was just putting a minor dose in with each regular water change - perhaps its got to the point that its just happy to multiply in the water column. I've stopped that and the iron. Only been a couple of days but it looks to be subsiding slowly. Another water change today and I'll post a picture tomorrow.



PARAGUAY said:


> Your tank looks really nice Scaper Joe  no sign of iron deficiency so might be getting enough micro nutrients to your plants anyway. Maybe stop the "extra " iron and see if its a bacterial bloom



Thank you @PARAGUAY  I may not have an Iron deficiency but my Anubias are definitely missing something they need - they've started shedding leaves and some yellow is starting to creep in.



MichaelJ said:


> +1 for Iron. I used to use Seachem Iron as well back in the day. And it always bugged me that it would cloud up the tanks - now I am just relying on what's in the Tropica Premium - which may not be quite enough.  Anyway, my tanks used to clear up in a day or two after adding the Iron.
> 
> Nice scape!
> 
> ...





MichaelJ said:


> Are those red ones flamingo Crypts? Sorry for being off topic. The plants looks really healthy!


Cheers @MichaelJ its good to know its happened to others and there's a definite reason. Re the plants, they are '_alternanthera reineckii mini_' - from Tropica 1-2 Grow! cups. I really like them - they close up at night and are an even more vibrant colour underneath. They are tissuey thin though, so if they get algae and the Amano shrimp get on the case, they can actually put loads of tiny holes through the leaves as they graze!


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## Zeus. (17 Apr 2021)

Had the same issue with Seachem Fe some time back, I take it you have hard water in your part of the world also.
Tanks looks great IMO , and from the pics I dont think you need the extra Fe either. See your Amanos have been snacking on your Alternanthera a bit 😬


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## ScaperJoe (17 Apr 2021)

Zeus. said:


> Had the same issue with Seachem Fe some time back, I take it you have hard water in your part of the world also.
> Tanks looks great IMO , and from the pics I dont think you need the extra Fe either. See your Amanos have been snacking on your Alternanthera a bit 😬


Thank you Zeus! We have hard water but I create RO and it still comes out at TDS 20-25. Its a cheap RO unit though.

And yeah, I fed all the cheeky Amanos a shrimp pellet each today, hoping to discourage them from the Alternanthera. They've been doing such a great job everywhere else in the tank, I can't stay mad at them.


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## ScaperJoe (18 Apr 2021)

3 days later and a couple of water changes. No iron or bacteria added. I think you can see a slight improvement in water clarity, but its not quite there yet.

I have recently changed mechanical filtration over in my filter (not the Seachem Matrix) and I read that this can sometimes have a disruption on the bacteria and potentially cause blooms if you over clean your filter?





Maybe a few more days and I might be back to glassy water?


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## dw1305 (18 Apr 2021)

Hi all,


ScaperJoe said:


> I think I should have stopped adding the filter bacteria supplement a long time ago, but was just putting a minor dose in with each regular water change -





dw1305 said:


> ......... What grows from that microbial assemblage, in the inoculum (filter bacteria supplement), is going to depend on all sorts factors, some of which aren't quantified yet. It looks like ammonia level is the chief driver, which means that products produced in a commercial bioreactor, with high ammonia loadings (again I'm going to guess it is all of them), aren't likely to be very suitable......


It definitely isn't doing any good now, even if it helped initially. Have a look at our <"Dr Tim Hovanec"> and <"Bacteria in a bottle"> threads, they cover this whole area in some detail.

I use a different approach to "cycling", that doesn't require any water testing, or the addition of ammonia and/or bacterial supplements. All you need to do is wait until your plants are grown in and then your tank is fish safe. Using this metric your plants were plenty grown in after 45 days (and still look really healthy). Have a look at <"Where are the bacteria?">  (and the threads linked in to it).


Hufsa said:


> but when they merge together you are basically removing a fair amount of two important plant nutrients, which is why I would avoid it.


I'd be reasonably confident that the cloudiness has been caused by <"insoluble iron compounds">.

cheers Darrel


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## ScaperJoe (19 Apr 2021)

A further update. I did another 50% WC yesterday and monitored all day today as I worked from home. The cloudiness hasn't shifted, if anything it may have gotten worse. 

This has lead me to believe that it is bacteria having a right old knee's up and my water changes may have been encouraging them... which has all lead me to this:

It ain't pretty, the _Green Killing Machine Internal UV Sterilizer with Power Head_, but lets see what this does overnight


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## ScaperJoe (22 Apr 2021)

Following 3 nights of the "killing machine" on the case, here it is today. Again, I think there is a small improvement, but it didn't have the result I was hoping for. Perhaps I am just being impatient.

I was sure it was going to return me to crystal clarity, but I was only running after the lights and CO2 had gone off. Do you think it would be OK to run full time for a few days? 
Concerned about the amount of CO2 'off-gassing' it might cause and disrupt the plants day routine? But perhaps I have insoluble compounds floating around in there too?


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## MichaelJ (22 Apr 2021)

@ScaperJoe
I think its going in the right direction. Not sure the sterilizer made the difference or if the improvement would have happened anyway - if so, just give it another couple of days.
Also, the UV sterilizer would only have helped if its some kind of algae or bacteria bloom and depending on what kind as the Green Killing Machine will only take care of (i.e. kill) certain algae and bacterias (both good and bad) and if it's an insoluble compound it won't do anything as far as I know. For what its worth, I am hysterically impatient myself with water clarity and had similar issues in the past after dosing iron (possibly reacting with phosphate). In bad cases I have successfully used the Mainland internal polishing filter - it comes with a micron filter cartridge and can further be charged with diatomaceous earth powder (90% silica) to increase its polishing efficiency.  It would make my tanks crystal clear in a day. I haven't had to use it for a very long time though.

Perhaps just wait it out and see how things improve after your next WC.

I don't know if anything related to Co2 can cause this... I'll leave that question to the domain experts on this forum.

Cheers,
Michael


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## ScaperJoe (22 Apr 2021)

Thanks @MichaelJ - that helps and I don’t think I’ll be surprised if it’s down me over tinkering (and over worrying) with my first scape without enough experience to know what I’m doing.

I won’t be returning the killing machine to the tank tonight. I haven’t added any iron for a week or any bottled bacteria. So I’m going to try to exercise patience - keep up the WCs and let nature do her thing.

All the creatures seem happy enough in there, so I’m confident it’s safe whatever the cause.

edit: I am however going to look into this Mainland internal polishing filter you mention 😁


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## MichaelJ (22 Apr 2021)

ScaperJoe said:


> Thanks @MichaelJ - that helps and I don’t think I’ll be surprised if it’s down me over tinkering (and over worrying) with my first scape without enough experience to know what I’m doing.
> So I’m going to try to exercise patience - keep up the WCs and let nature do her thing.


Yep, patience! That's one of the guiding principles in this hobby.



ScaperJoe said:


> edit: I am however going to look into this Mainland internal polishing filter you mention 😁


In my experience, it's nice to have in the arsenal.


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## JoshP12 (22 Apr 2021)

Hi @ScaperJoe

What is your lowest pH? And your approximate KH?

Josh


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## ScaperJoe (22 Apr 2021)

JoshP12 said:


> What is your lowest pH? And your approximate KH?
> 
> Josh


Hi Josh. Last I checked, I go down to about pH 5.7 when the co2 is on and I think my KH is somewhere between 0 and 1. But I couldnt tell you if that’s good or bad. I use RO water and remineralise to TDS 120 (using a combo of seachem equilibrium and shrimp mineral GH/KH+).


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## JoshP12 (22 Apr 2021)

ScaperJoe said:


> Hi Josh. Last I checked, I go down to about pH 5.7 when the co2 is on and I think my KH is somewhere between 0 and 1. But I couldnt tell you if that’s good or bad. I use RO water and remineralise to TDS 120 (using a combo of seachem equilibrium and shrimp mineral GH/KH+).



Thanks for the info.

The scape looks healthy.

If it was me, and you are not afraid of fiddling (equipped with a keen eye), I would turn down CO2 a micro hair and watch. I can't say how much - that is based on your regulator - but maybe so that pH goes a bit higher (again hesitant to give a number, you will have to feel the system).

You can probably get away with less CO2 at those lower KH's and that may stabilize bacterial activity.

My 2 cents.

Josh

EDIT: if you see a decrease in plant health, turn it back up.


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## ScaperJoe (22 Apr 2021)

JoshP12 said:


> You can probably get away with less CO2 at those lower KH's and that may stabilize bacterial activity.


Thanks Josh, I didn’t know bacteria were fans of low pH or that CO2 works better at low KH (I achieved my scape results via Green Aqua YouTube videos) - the science is all new to me.

I’m a little hesitant to play with the CO2 again because it’s taken me these 6 or 7 weeks to find the spot that pushed back the algae and stopped the fish stressing, which was making me stress 😁 but I’ll definitely consider it if I’m in the same boat after the weekend.

thanks again!


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## JoshP12 (22 Apr 2021)

ScaperJoe said:


> I didn’t know bacteria were fans of low pH


Can't find my exact reference right now - but denitrifying bacteria should be classified as Neutrophiles (The Effects of pH on Microbial Growth | Microbiology.) and would "prefer" that neutral environment.

Honestly, though, I don't know the magnitude of impact as you stray away from neutral. It could just be "time".

It's a game of economics. Is the damage of "less" CO2 beneficial? We should actually question what is the damage of "less" -- and I am not so sure the answer is obvious. It too will be a balance as the ability to manufacture sugar decreases as pH drops as well (The Effect of PH on the Rate of Photosynthesis)



ScaperJoe said:


> CO2 works better at low KH


Have no reference. I wouldn't be surprised if higher KH disrupt the acquisition of CO2 from the water column (directly or indirectly ... don't know). 


ScaperJoe said:


> I’m a little hesitant to play with the CO2 again because it’s taken me these 6 or 7 weeks to find the spot that pushed back the algae and stopped the fish stressing, which was making me stress 😁 but I’ll definitely consider it if I’m in the same boat after the weekend.


Been there friend.

Face the fears! Crank that needle valve and watch its effects. You can always re-turn it back up. Learning experiences .

Josh


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