# Leaves/Tannins



## Nelson (9 Sep 2016)

Just trying to find out what is safe to use and available in the UK.
I know,

Oak
Beech,what about the nut shells/casing ?.
Camellia ?

How about,

Field Maple
Elm
Zelkova
Cherry
Apple
Magnolia Stellata
Sycamore
Grape(leaves)
Ash
Hawthorn

Or any others.


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## zozo (9 Sep 2016)

I know Wallnut is used by many. Alder cones are used, so probably it's leaves are ok too.


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## Lindy (9 Sep 2016)

Colin Dunlop did an article for seriously fish on safe leaves to use. Well worth a read. I'm sure magnolia was on the list and maple too but best check with him.

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## Nelson (9 Sep 2016)

Was just reading that Lindy .


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## zozo (9 Sep 2016)

What i find rather funny, but it probably has a good reason i just do not know it yet.  But melting of aquatic plants tends to induce algae growth and is something we like to avoid and trim old melting leaves away. But on the other hand we throw in non aquatic leaves and many of us leave them to rot as well. Aint that a bit melting as well? Kinda makes me wonder.. Can't we just leave old melting leaves melt?

Btw what about Willow leaves, that's a tree often found near the water, obviously shedding all it's leaves in it year after year.. Next to that willow seems to contain aspirin (acetylsalicylic).. At least the fish certainly never will have a headage..


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## fleetEWD (9 Sep 2016)

I've recently collect a load of alder cones for my shrimp tank. about ten give for 20 gallons gives good results.


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## Lindy (10 Sep 2016)

Zozo these are dead leaves that have been dropped by trees. The sugar has been taken out of the leaf by the tree and then discarded. I'm sure there is a brain about to explain it better. 

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## zozo (10 Sep 2016)

Lindy said:


> Zozo these are dead leaves that have been dropped by trees. The sugar has been taken out of the leaf by the tree and then discarded. I'm sure there is a brain about to explain it better.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk



Ok that could kinda make sence that the drying proces does someting.. I red also that it's stated you could gather the life leaves from the tree and dry them at home.
I once red a very valid argumant it's best not to colect leafs from the forest floor, because you never know how long they are laying there decomposing and colecting fungus etc.

So if it is the drying process making the diference, why shouldn't be ok to dry the leave litter from the (aquatic) plants you trim off and throw 'm back into the tank.

It all sounds kinda odd to me, cutting a lot away from my tank dispose of it in the bin and then run into the forest to collect dead leaves to throw back in. In nature it's not only trees that shed their leaves into the water, also the marginal vegitation.. 99% of what we grow in our tanks grows rather marginal in nature than aquatic.

Just trying to connect some dots here, for example did read information from some plant nurseries they use and advice dried sedge as substrate to grow sertain aquatic plants from seeds. This because it has the same propperties in what it adds to the water. Tannins etc.. Now sedge is Cyperaceae which we also can grow as C. Helferi..


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## Nelson (10 Sep 2016)

zozo said:


> It all sounds kinda odd to me, cutting a lot away from my tank dispose of it in the bin and then run into the forest to collect dead leaves to throw back in.


Depends on what you're trying to achieve.
I want my two low tech tanks to be blackwater.Won't be using them in my high tech.


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## zozo (10 Sep 2016)

Nelson said:


> Depends on what you're trying to achieve.
> I want my two low tech tanks to be blackwater.Won't be using them in my high tech.



I'm not quite sure what you are refering to, if dried sedge does at tannins to the water you would acheive the same as using dried oak leaves or any other..  This stands completely beside high or low tech..  What i'm trying to say is if you grow sedge in your tank, why would a dying sedge leave not add tannins to the water? Do we need to dry it first before it does that? It kinda doesn't make much sence to me and also can't find any explanations. I'm just thinking there must be (aquatic) plants we can grow in our thanks or maybe our garden doing the same. Sedge (cyperus helferi) seems to be one of them.

So why run to forest and search for suitable terrestrial trees if we can grow it ourself in our tanks with the right plant choice?


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## zozo (10 Sep 2016)

I even think there must be a large number of plants we might be able to use for that, as long it contains tannoids and probably a lot do.. Only would need to find out what more does it contain we might not want in our tanks. The number of Edible Medicinal and Non Medicinal Plants is rather huge and fairly well researched and documented.

Our home botanist Darrel ( @dw1305  ) could shed a clear light on that one i guess..


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## Nelson (10 Sep 2016)

I just 'assumed' dried leaves added tannins.Not sure if dead leaves,from aquatic plants,do the same !.
Also not sure how many Cyperus helferi I would need for 125ltr and 150ltr tanks.Would they grow low tech and low light ?.
I can get a years supply of leaves,for free,in an hour or two.
I also like the aesthetics,with the leaves.


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## zozo (10 Sep 2016)

I meant it just as an example..  And i'm growing a Cyperus sp. in the garden emersed a metre high.. Just try to give a maybe valid alternative other then search for trees.
As said in my search for plants came across nurseries using and advising dried sedge as a substrate to grow certain difficult plant sp like utricularias. It seems to work beter than peat with simular propperties, adding tannins and beneficial acids, antseptic, prevent fungal growth, beneficial for microbiological development becaus it is perfect food for rotifers etc. It does everything what a dried almond or oak or beach leave does to our tank water.

All this information made me think and scratch meself behind the ears while adding almond leaves to the tank while growing sedge in the garden and some even grow it in their tanks. There aint realy much info to be found about this subject in aqaurium use other then leaves from terrestrial trees. So it kinda contradicts a few common practices in the aquarium hobby, like cutting away dying leaves and dispose it, even cutting away healthy tissue and dispose it. And them run into the forest to collect dead leaves to put in the tank.  Mean while what we dispose of could have the same propperties.. If so, then what the hell are we doing here? Having a run around?

I'm as unsure as you are in this, but since you brought the issue up i thought why not share it and maybe find out what others who know more about the subject think about it.


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## Lindy (10 Sep 2016)

If you are trimming leaves off they are not dead leaves. Do not take leaves off the trees as these will contain sugar still. If you are worried about contaminants you can bake them in the oven before using. You don't want the leaves releasing nutrients into the water. Just tanin stained. 

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## zozo (10 Sep 2016)

Lindy said:


> If you are trimming leaves off they are not dead leaves. Do not take leaves off the trees as these will contain sugar still. If you are worried about contaminants you can bake them in the oven before using. You don't want the leaves releasing nutrients into the water. Just tanin stained.



This already was clear to me the first time you mentioned it. Good point you don't want to much protiens and sugars leaching into the water column from dying life tissue in a tank.

Dry it, and it will be as dead as a leaf from a tree you find on the floor.


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## Lindy (10 Sep 2016)

But a picked leaf that is then dried still contains the sugars that you don't want in your tank!

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## Lindy (10 Sep 2016)

It is like the difference in hay and straw. Hay that is cut has sugars and nutrients used to feed horses etc as it is cut while the grass is alive but not too juicy but straw has no nutritional value as it is baled once the crop is harvested and it is completely dead. 

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## zozo (10 Sep 2016)

Lindy said:


> But a picked leaf that is then dried still contains the sugars that you don't want in your tank!


Was already afraid that this was your bottom line.. But then you might explain the differents between the 2 ways of dying and what it does to the sugars.. It might be applicable to certain spieces if i think correctly about what you mean with that one breef sentence.

If a leave dies and dry on your window sil it keeps the sugars but if it dies and dry on the tree it doesn't.. But you pick it off the floor.. How do you know then how it died?

The plot thickens and i'm getting realy lost.


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## Lindy (10 Sep 2016)

In autumn the trees are dropping their leaves after sucking all the good stuff out. That is why the leaves change colour in autumn. The tree then drops the leaf. We collect leaves in autumn/early winter.

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## zozo (10 Sep 2016)

I know trees or rather it's leaves stop making chlorophyll in the fall and therefore change color.. So you are saying the tree pulls back all the carbohydrates from the leaf as well to store energy for the hybernation periode? So then i tripocal tree as the indian almond must do the same without a winter but does this during a dry season? Hmm intresting? First time i hear this. Always thought the carbonhydrate was the main building block as a solid substance. Anyway i'll take your word for it, thanks for explaining..


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## KipperSarnie (10 Sep 2016)

I wouldn't use anything from Beech.
If I remember correctly there are more types of fungus found in beech Woods than any other types of woodland.
I know walking in a beech wood the woodland floor is very sterile with little, if any undergrowth.


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## Lindy (10 Sep 2016)

Beech leaves are great in a tank. Look lovely and take ages to break down. 

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## dw1305 (10 Sep 2016)

Hi all, 





zozo said:


> But on the other hand we throw in non aquatic leaves and many of us leave them to rot as well. Aint that a bit melting as well? Kinda makes me wonder.. Can't we just leave old melting leaves melt?


Like Lindy says the leaves you want have had all the sugars and proteins removed them by the plant before being shed.

The seral stage of the plant also matters, trees from later seral successions (climax communities) like Oak and Beech have leaves and often fruit loaded with toxic compounds to make them unpalatable to grazers, as well as antimicrobial compounds to deter opportunistic fungi etc. This creates shed leaves that are resistant to decay. 





KipperSarnie said:


> If I remember correctly there are more types of fungus found in beech Woods than any other types of woodland.
> I know walking in a beech wood the woodland floor is very sterile with little, if any undergrowth.


 This is the other side of the fungal coin, trees are reliant on their mycorrhizial symbionts to procure scarce nutrients, so as well as the opportunistic fungal pathogens they want to deter there are a large number of "toadstools" they want to combine with. Also it is only the Basidiomycota that have the enzymes to digest the lignin rich heart wood of trees.

Beech woods have little undergrowth because they have persistent leaf litter that reduces seedling emergence, they have a very full canopy that intercepts nearly all the light (and water) falling on it and you can't easily coppice them, meaning that most ancient beech woods have been managed as high forest.

cheers Darrel


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## dw1305 (10 Sep 2016)

Hi all, 





Nelson said:


> Magnolia Stellata


_Magnolia grandiflora_ has very persistent leaf litter. If you can't PYO they sell them for Dart Frog vivaria.

cheers Darrel


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## Lindy (10 Sep 2016)

Thanks for that Darrel!

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## Nelson (10 Sep 2016)

Cheers Darrel.
Most on the list are in my garden.Do you know if any of the others are ok ?.


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## dw1305 (10 Sep 2016)

Hi all,





Nelson said:


> Do you know if any of the others are ok ?.


Elm and _Zelkova_ are very similar, my suspicion would be that they won't be very persistent as leaf litter. _Magnolia stellata_ is OK, but the leaves skeletonize really quickly. 

I don't think any of them are likely to be toxic, but I might avoid Ash (the leaves still have some chlorophyll when they are shed), and possibly Cherry (these may contain traces of cyanide). 

cheers Darrel


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## Nelson (10 Sep 2016)

Cheers .


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## Tim Harrison (10 Sep 2016)

The leaves and stems of woody terrestrial plants contain lignin, and cellulose, which gives them the structural rigidity needed to resist gravity etc.

They're pretty tough organic polymers and hard to break down. Aquatic plants don't require so much structural support so they don't contain so much lignin and therefore rot away much quicker.

Tannins serve to protect woody terrestrial plants from predation. During times of stress or autumn etc the flow of nutrients to the leaves is gradually cut off, and any molecules in the leaves that can be re-mobilised are used elsewhere.

Tannins on the other hand remain, and give trees their characteristic autumnal shades of brown.

Aquatic plants are relatively devoid of tannins.

So I guess that's why aquatic plant leaves (even those that have been dried) aren't fit for our purposes, but woody terrestrial plant leaves are.


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## zozo (11 Sep 2016)

It was the dried Sedge which is used and solled as a beter alternative instead of peat to use as substrate to grow a few aquatic plants. Was what made me go out of the box here, since we also use peat for this purpose. It came a bit like adomino effect.. 

Anyway is started diggin after some very usefull comments here and is is indeed the Chloroplasts which ofcourse contain glucose and starches and are retracted from the leaves by the tree during that dying process. Plants obviously do the same and after reading all again, i missed a fe words in the sedge story too. Same story actualy
*Robust sedge or reed litter (i.e., dry dead leaves or straw collected in late winter) is the required substrate.*

They advise to collect Carex and Cyperus sp. for that, i happen to grow both at the pond in the garden. not far away from dying, this time of year.. Still makes me wonder about it's use in aquarium as cappata replacement..


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## dw1305 (11 Sep 2016)

Hi all,





zozo said:


> They advise to collect Carex and Cyperus sp. for that, i happen to grow both at the pond in the garden.


Some "Sedges" have persistent leaves, they used to use <"_Cladium mariscus"> _for thatching houses in the UK, and much of the peat we still harvest is <"sedge peat"> from former fens. 

It won't soften the water like sphagnum peat would (the cation exchange sites will have at least some Ca++ ions present), or add much in the way of tannins (for the reasons "Tim Harrison" mentions). 

The _Aldrovanda_ link is interesting, I add <"some dried grass to my _Daphnia_ cultures">, and it definitely makes them stay productive longer.  

cheers Darrel


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## zozo (11 Sep 2016)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,Some "Sedges" have persistent leaves, they used to use <"_Cladium mariscus"> _for thatching houses in the UK, and much of the peat we still harvest is <"sedge peat"> from former fens.
> 
> It won't soften the water like sphagnum peat would (the cation exchange sites will have at least some Ca++ ions present), or add much in the way of tannins (for the reasons "Tim Harrison" mentions).
> 
> ...



Indeed intresting articles to find at bestcarnivorousplants.com, al tho their information is a bit scatered. Everywhere bits and pieces They also sell leaf litter to use in which they short explain how to use it. Even tho it might not realese much tannins as you say, still they recomend to soak it in warm water for a few days, to wash out excesive tannins. Seeing the excample pots on the picture it still is pretty stained with 4 grams on 3 litre they recommend. Is indeed a bunch you would need to stain a 150 litre tank with it. 200 grams, i guess thats quite a ba full in dried state..

http://www.bestcarnivorousplants.com/aldrovanda/aldrovanda_for_sale.htm
All the way down on this site.. 

For me personaly it's not the staining i'm after, more the other biological effects.. I'm growing Cyperus alternifolius, Cyperus Gracilis and Carex panacea at the pond this year.. They die off anyway.. I'll collect and dry them and do some tests.. Still waiting on my Utricularia volubilis seeds to germinate, it might come into use if they do.


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## mr. luke (19 Sep 2016)

dw1305 said:


> Cherry (these may contain traces of cyanide).
> 
> cheers Darrel


I was readin something the other day about temperatures above 60 removing cyanide some how. Do you know much about this at all? If so then a quick boil wold do the trick perhaps?


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## zozo (19 Sep 2016)

mr. luke said:


> I was readin something the other day about temperatures above 60 removing cyanide some how. Do you know much about this at all? If so then a quick boil wold do the trick perhaps?



You are refering to the Glucosides which are formed in those chloroplasts mentioned above which are retracted from the leaves during this dying process by the tree. Some are Glycoalkaloids, cyanogenic glycosides is one thing it can contain.. One of the most common for us humans is Solanine form the nightshades as Tomatoes and potatoes.

This is what said about coocking..


> *Home processing methods (boiling, cooking, frying, and microwaving) have small and variable effects on glycoalkaloids.* For example, boiling potatoes reduces the α-chaconine and α-solanine levels by only 3.5% and 1.2%, respectively; the corresponding loss during microwaving is 15%. Deep-frying at 150 °C (302 °F) does not result in any measurable change; significant degradation starts at ∼170 °C (338 °F), and deep-frying at 210 °C (410 °F) for 10 min causes a loss of ∼40%.[9] Freeze-drying or dehydration has little effect.[10]


We can take a certain level of this poisoning a few mg a day is still safe, we probably eat it more than we realize with fruits and nust etc.. That mexican tree spinach is a good example, of which is said you can eat 3 raw leaves of it without ill effects. If cooked you can eat more.. I guess it's that little loss about 15% only which is enough for us to eat more of it..


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## dw1305 (19 Sep 2016)

Hi all,





mr. luke said:


> I was readin something the other day about temperatures above 60 removing cyanide some how


I don't know, we need a chemist. 

You can smell the prussic acid in laurel leaves (_Prunus laurocerasus_), it smells of almonds (or more correctly almonds smell of prussic acid), so that may be an option.

cheers Darrel


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## zozo (19 Sep 2016)

dw1305 said:


> it smells of almonds



I remeber working near _DSM_ Acrylonitrile where HCN was/is made, they said if you smell almonds you are to late to run and if you do and do not get help within a few munites you'll never run again. There where reports of people fainting while walking by a HCN gass leak.. Personaly i never experienced something happening there, but i was glad only to be there for a very short periode. That stuff seems to be very nasty and lethal.. Very unpleasant place to work..


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## mr. luke (19 Sep 2016)

*searches frantically for a chemist*

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## zozo (19 Sep 2016)

Maybe search for a proffesional cook, they might be easier to find and able to tell you some basics as well. I have a gut feeling that this subject is with some degree and in-depth in there study. Since that stuff is so common to be found in food.. 

See this and is all about, soaking and cooking..
http://www.cfs.gov.hk/english/programme/programme_rafs/files/ras27_natural_toxin_in_food_plant.pdf

I quickly skipped throught it with the search query cook.. And it seems it's rather not as you ask an quick boil.. It's more thoroughly soaking and cooking.. Even dry heat seems to be useless to get the stuff out.


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