# What would you recommend?



## dean (31 Aug 2016)

What substrate would you recommend for a newbie who is setting up a large tank 
It's a 5.2.2 and he wants to go high tech but also loves L number plecs ( smaller ones of course in a planted tank) it's going to be a discus tank 


Regards
Dean


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## dw1305 (31 Aug 2016)

Hi all, 





dean said:


> What substrate would you recommend for a newbie who is setting up a large tank. It's a 5.2.2 and he wants to go high tech but also loves L number plecs ( smaller ones of course in a planted tank) it's going to be a discus tank


Swimming pool filter sand.  

I'd also try to persuade that he doesn't want to go high tech., partially because that is a large investment in fish if there is a CO2 incident, and a lot of CO2. 

The more rheophilic plecs (like _<"Hypancistrus _L333">, _<"Peckoltia compta">_ etc) are always at risk from low dissolved oxygen levels and the <"Bohr Effect">, and the combination of Discus temperatures (lower gas solubility at higher temperatures) and added CO2 just compounds that as a problem.

You may also get issues with diet for the more herbivorous plecs (_<"Panaque nigrolineatus"> etc_)_. _Where they are prone to bloat if they get too much protein.  

If he hasn't seen them I'd really strongly recommend reading Larry Waybright's ("Apistomaster") posts on <"PlanetCatfish"> etc. He is a very long term Discus and L number <"keeper/breeder"> with <"planted tanks">, and his posts are a fantastic resource.

cheers Darrel


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## dean (31 Aug 2016)

Darrel 
Thanks for the reply 
Believe me I've tried to tell him to start low tec but he's one of those people who jumps on with both feet upto his neck before he asks for help or advise 
I'm preemption the problems to try n help 


Regards
Dean


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## alto (31 Aug 2016)

also point him towards posts/videos on plec's attaching to discus - generally to the detriment of the discus 

Some people have no issues & must admit I was in the sceptical group as well ... until I observed it several times
- & not my tanks so I wasn't there often ... unlikely that it happened only on the few occasions I was there


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## zozo (1 Sep 2016)

You should put a hardheaded newbe with his nose in the books and underline the paragraphs which tell that keeping fish in an aquarium is not about what you want. For example the paragraphs saying a plec is a river biotope fish living in highly oxygenated water. Yes it can live in other circumstances as well if you know what you are doing, but still any other invironment is far from ideal... And fresh nose doesn't know what he's into and already wants to deprive the poor anymals what they need the most?

Unbelievable that this still occurs in 2016 with so much very good information for the grasp..

Slab the books even beter the desktop monitor because this one is harder around his ears till he finaly understands that he's dealing with living animals which have needs. It's not an ornamental toy and not about what he needs, wants or likes and living creatures are not to be experimented with for fun.

Sorry if it was my friend not willing to listen i'd kick him (so to speak) and tell to find help elswhere. For example in the lfs where everything is possible.



Sorry no pun intended.. But the way you discribe this dude he's beyond any help. He misses a few very essential things..


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## Manuel Arias (5 Sep 2016)

zozo said:


> You should put a hardheaded newbe with his nose in the books and underline the paragraphs which tell that keeping fish in an aquarium is not about what you want. For example the paragraphs saying a plec is a river biotope fish living in highly oxygenated water. Yes it can live in other circumstances as well if you know what you are doing, but still any other invironment is far from ideal... And fresh nose doesn't know what he's into and already wants to deprive the poor anymals what they need the most?



In the era of internet, most people think that  by reading a couple of posts and asking in facebook groups everything is done. Reading books is becoming a kind of vintage activity, changed by the laziness that internet has created in the habits of people. However, I would insist to a newbie starting reading information for a few months BEFORE even plan an aquarium. But that is me...



zozo said:


> Unbelievable that this still occurs in 2016 with so much very good information for the grasp..



Well, to be honest, large part of the eternal discussion comes because there is a mix of good and bad information, and with no a good base that only invites to confusion. Even in this forum I read all the time some wrong statements, perpetuated by people thinking they are right when they are not. Discussion is good, however, but does not make things easy for a newbie. A newbie would really struggle to discriminate what is right from what is not in this forum, for example.



zozo said:


> Slab the books even beter the desktop monitor because this one is harder around his ears till he finaly understands that he's dealing with living animals which have needs. It's not an ornamental toy and not about what he needs, wants or likes and living creatures are not to be experimented with for fun.



I could not agree more into this. This is not a toy: Plants and animals are living things that require the utmost respect and care for their life. As Amano said once, encapsuling animals into a glass box involves the responsibility of providing them the best conditions as possible.



zozo said:


> Sorry if it was my friend not willing to listen i'd kick him (so to speak) and tell to find help elswhere. For example in the lfs where everything is possible.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry no pun intended.. But the way you discribe this dude he's beyond any help. He misses a few very essential things.




As many things in life, there are two ways:

a) Trying to be influential in people to break wrong habits.

b) Do not get involved and avoid arguments.

In both cases the result can be a fail, but I am always in the a) side of the life.  However, there is a limit: If someone does not want to listen then...why asking for help? Nowadays this is more and more common, in which people just want help to confirm their own assumptions, not to accept a different point of view... 

Anyway, back to the topic, Darrel and Marcel are right. The guy is too ambitious and will have issues with the aquarium. The bad side of it is that our small friends will unnecessarily suffer for it.

Cheers,
Manuel


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## dean (5 Sep 2016)

He not a newbie fish keeper I should of states that 
He's bred a lot of fish mainly Malawi cichlids 
This will be his first adventure into the planted scene 

But honestly I've felt like bashing his head hard with a solid object over the past few days
Finally talked him out of high tec 
Actually I think price of the lights did that 


Regards
Dean


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## Manuel Arias (5 Sep 2016)

dean said:


> Finally talked him out of high tec
> Actually I think price of the lights did that



When people do not come to a reason. money makes the job. 

Cheers,
Manuel


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## zozo (5 Sep 2016)

dean said:


> He not a newbie fish keeper I should of states that
> He's bred a lot of fish mainly Malawi cichlids
> This will be his first adventure into the planted scene



Then i realy wonder even more where did it go wrong? With choosing, pleco's, discus in a heavily planted high tech tank. That's one hell of a challange, one where absolutely nothing adds up. And in my humble opinion hell of a challange is a hell of an understatement..


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