# Using dry ferts help



## bhavik (12 Dec 2017)

Hi there I had a question regarding ferts dosing. 
So I live in London and my tank is filled with hard water don’t know how hard but I think slight - medium. 
Now I have made a dry ferts solution made up of using warm water which is connected to a water softener and my question is would the contents of the ferts dissolve fine in my tank when added?

Thanks


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## ian_m (12 Dec 2017)

You should never use water softened water in your tank ever, as it contains sodium (as carbonate). Sodium has no major biological role in fish or plants and will just accumulate. Why do you think the sea is salty, there are no plants or animals using the sodium.

You could use potassium chloride in your softener, if you can afford it, that is fine. In States some states it is law to use potassium in water softeners due to sodium accumulation in sewerage.

Basically mix your EI using cooled bolied water, you will be fine.


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## bhavik (12 Dec 2017)

ian_m said:


> You should never use water softened water in your tank ever, as it contains sodium (as carbonate). Sodium has no major biological role in fish or plants and will just accumulate. Why do you think the sea is salty, there are no plants or animals using the sodium.
> 
> You could use potassium chloride in your softener, if you can afford it, that is fine. In States some states it is law to use potassium in water softeners due to sodium accumulation in sewerage.
> 
> Basically mix your EI using cooled bolied water, you will be fine.



Oh ok didn’t know that thanks for that! I didn’t think it would matter if I used water softener water in the tank not that I do always been adding normal water. 
I also wanted to ask. 

I have been using the miracle grow all purpose plant food it looks like osmocote. Can’t get osmocote here as I find shipping too expensive. Is this any good? Only problem I am having and hence don’t like using them is the yellow beads only don’t dissolve so when you disturb the substrate a billion of these yellow beads pop out.


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## ian_m (12 Dec 2017)

bhavik said:


> I have been using the miracle grow all purpose plant food it looks like osmocote


Be careful some of these ferts contain ammonium compounds (ammonium nitrate, ammonium citrate and others) that are very toxic to fish (and can produce algae blooms), which is why it is generally ok to use them buried in the substrate where they release slowly. On saying that not heard anyone wipe out their fish or produce algae blooms when accidentally exposing the ferts.

You are in London, you can get proper Osmocote from Ebay and most garden/DIY centres.

One hint about placing Osmacote is to freeze it in water in an ice cube tray and then you can easily push the frozen cubes under the substrate, say 1-2cm deep (or more).


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## AverageWhiteBloke (12 Dec 2017)

ian_m said:


> One hint about placing Osmacote is to freeze it in water in an ice cube tray and then you can easily push the frozen cubes under the substrate, say 1-2cm deep (or more).



I do the same. Noticed you can get empty organic gelatine caps on auction sites that you can fill yourself with whatever, not sure if these have any issues once dissolved in the water though. I capture rain water for my fert bottle mixes these days. Started just with the traces as my tapwater is quite heavy on phosphates and didn't like the idea it could be possibly reacting with the iron but now I do the Macros with it as well. I just put a bucket out on the garden a couple of hours after the initial downpour once most of the crap is down. I only need about a ltr for both bottles so doesn't take long especially where I live where we have had "prolonged showers" for a couple of hundred years


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## bhavik (12 Dec 2017)

ian_m said:


> Be careful some of these ferts contain ammonium compounds (ammonium nitrate, ammonium citrate and others) that are very toxic to fish (and can produce algae blooms), which is why it is generally ok to use them buried in the substrate where they release slowly. On saying that not heard anyone wipe out their fish or produce algae blooms when accidentally exposing the ferts.
> 
> You are in London, you can get proper Osmocote from Ebay and most garden/DIY centres.
> 
> One hint about placing Osmacote is to freeze it in water in an ice cube tray and then you can easily push the frozen cubes under the substrate, say 1-2cm deep (or more).



Hi thanks for that yes that’s what I do with the miracle grow root tabs I’m using fill them in an ice cube tray and then freeze and put them in. 

This is what it looks like 
But the only problem I’m having is having some yellow beads in there that don’t fully dissolve and when I disturb the substrate they all come up. Does this happen with Osmacote?


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## AverageWhiteBloke (12 Dec 2017)

bhavik said:


> Hi thanks for that yes that’s what I do with the miracle grow root tabs I’m using fill them in an ice cube tray and then freeze and put them in.
> 
> This is what it looks like
> But the only problem I’m having is having some yellow beads in there that don’t fully dissolve and when I disturb the substrate they all come up. Does this happen with Osmacote?


Yeah, Osmocote does the same thing. Not sure how these things are made or whether the bead that gets leftover is purely there for transporting the nutrients which are coated on it but eventually the beads do make their way to the surface. Just syphon them out or pick them out with the king tweezers. I guess they've done their job by then anyway.

Can't really think of a way that these things "slowly release" other than when they are in contact with moisture so when it rains some of the nutrients dissolve so if that is correct I would say they release a lot faster under water than in the garden soil.

Only guessing at that mind you, maybe someone more knowledgeable can elaborate. 

Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


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## ian_m (12 Dec 2017)

Yes looks like they contain ammonium citrate so try not to let too much get in the water at one go.

When I had "floaters" like you describe I just pushed them back under the substrate or crushed them up with fingers.


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## bhavik (12 Dec 2017)

Yeah I understand it’s just very annoying about yellow beads all over the substrate.

As for the freezing method I never know how much to put into one cube. I use one cube for one plant

Also what is the difference between clay peat balls and the root tabs? And are clay peat balls any good?


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## ceg4048 (13 Dec 2017)

bhavik said:


> Also what is the difference between clay peat balls and the root tabs? And are clay peat balls any good?


Clay peat balls are just clay and peat. Unless the particular brand being purchased indicates otherwise on the package then this is generally a waste of time.
Clay is a typical aquatic substrate due to it's ability to capture nutrients from the water column and to then pass it on to the roots of plants. As I mentioned, some clay products such as ADA Aquasoil take this one step further and they soak the clay gravel in a nutrient rich solution. Peat is also added to the solution. The product is then baked. So this makes it a nutrient rich substrate. This is a completely different effect than clay balls, which does nothing really. Clay balls are a marketing strategy.
If you want to use clay as a substrate but don't want to spend the money for expensive products like ADA Aquasoil, then simply go to any garden center that sells clay sediments for bonsai plants.

A root tab on the other hand is a product that typically contains NPK and sometimes trace elements that dissolve in the sediment. As always, they should be placed deep in the substrate because they typically derive their Nitrogen from ammonium salts. So if they are pulled up from the substrate when replanting then they can release ammonia/ammonium into the water column and can trigger algal blooms.

Osmocote cupsules contain the same ingredients as root tabs but is a lot cheaper/ The same caution applies however, that they are high in ammonia.
Osmocote is best used when setting up the tank as small amounts can be spread over the bottom glass and then the sediment of choice can be placed over the granules.

The OP is advised to abandon the idea of using root tabs or osmocote. Dose the water column as previously planned and forget about hard water effects, becaues it really doesn't matter. Also, as advised by other posters, your fertilizer mix should avoid Miracle Grow or other ammonium containing salts. Use standard products that can be purchase from any of our sponsors, KNO3, KH2PO4 and Trace Element mix. These will be a lot safer for your fish.

Cheers,


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## bhavik (13 Dec 2017)

Thanks a lot for explaining that to me!
That helped a lot! And sure i’ll will carry on with just dosing the liquid ferts. 
Where would I go about buying these is it from this website?


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## ian_m (14 Dec 2017)

Root tabs.
http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/...ate-capsules/apf-substrate-capsules-x-12.html

EI starter kit.
http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/fertilisers/dry-chemicals/starter-kits/ei-starter-kit.html


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## bhavik (15 Dec 2017)

Thank you! For that i’ll go have a look at it!

I have a 200L tank with 2 x 25watt aqua sky led lights. Tank is around 55cm to the substrate and wanted to ask would I be fine growing all of these plants with the ferts and the lighting?

aponogeton boivinianus
Staurogyne reps
Nymphoides sp
Vals nana
Dwarf sag 
Red lotus 

I could add another t8 30w tube if lighting is short


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## ceg4048 (15 Dec 2017)

Thinking that you need more light is the path to disaster.
You are advised to stick with the lighting that you have and hope that you don't already have too much.

Light causes algae. Too much light causes too much algae.

Concentrate your energy on ensuring good flow rate, good distribution of that flow rate and good CO2. That is the path to ensuring excellent plant health.
More light can always be added once you have achieved good gas exchange.

Cheers,


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## bhavik (15 Dec 2017)

Oh no adding more lighting is just a suggestion if need be I haven’t added it yet and the current lights I have can be dimmed if need be as well. 

I have tried to get good flow around the tank so just before I buy the plants above would the current setup I have be able to grow the plants listed above?


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## ceg4048 (16 Dec 2017)

bhavik said:


> I have tried to get good flow around the tank so just before I buy the plants above would the current setup I have be able to grow the plants listed above?


Hi,
     Well of course. There aren't any plants that _cannot _be grown with this combination. It's not how much light you have that determines success. It's how well you are able to provide good flow and distribution.
Saying that you have good flow around the tank is easy. Actually having good flow/distribution and CO2 dissolution is not so easy.

Success growing these and any plants will be strictly dependent on CO2/flow/distribution as well as your nutritional program and maintenance habits. There are so many factors it's difficult to predict success with having very specific details. The only details we have so far is that you have hard water, which doesn't really matter, that you have 200L and that you have a bunch of lights. These detail are relevant within the context of the more important details as follows:

We do not know, for example what kind of filtration or supplementary pumps you have. We do not know how the pump/filter outputs are arranged. We do not know how you are dissolving CO2. We do not know the diameter of the hose or the type and quantity of the filter media, which affects flow. Maybe you have already optimized these factors, as you mention, but we cannot say for certain until we are able to assess that information.
These are the things that matter most.

The only effect more light will have is to make things happen faster, but faster is not necessarily better because bad things happen in the tank faster than good things.

Inexperienced hobbyists are always worried about whether they have enough light to grow this plant or another, when actually 99.999% of the time they have way too much light which sets up a series of events that contributes to failure. The industry in general programs people to worry about this so that the hobbyist will spend lots of time, energy and money buying lighting products, which they all seem to have a stake in. The hobbyist is told that he must change his bulb regularly, so he/she spends more money on absurdly priced bulbs that cost no more to make than the bulbs at Tesco. We are told that only specialist "Plant Bulbs" are satisfactory thereby ensuring that the high bulb prices can be justified.


You would be wise to start asking the right questions, such as:
Do I have enough pumping power?
How should I arrange the filter outputs?
How much and often should I change my water?
How should I dose the water column and what products should I use?
What is the best CO2 dissolution method for 200L?
Should I be concerned about water chemistry?
Should I trust test kits?

There are about 100 more questions that are important to know the answer to.

The "Do I have enough light?" question should be down at around number 101.

Cheers,


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## bhavik (16 Dec 2017)

Hi thanks for that i appreciate the reply i think ive got what your trying to say now.
I will leave the lights till very last.

So the answer to your questions are that i have a fluval 205 filter with a U bend output right now and its near the top of the tank so it makes ripples. I dont know if this is correct and your advice would be great. The media filter i have is standand what came with it 4 large sponges and 2 bio media and one of the tray is empty which should have carbon.

As for the water change i do it roughly every 2 weeks and i know it should be about once a week. I tend to add liquid about 5ml when needed.
Is there anything else you would like to know please let me know!

thanks


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## ceg4048 (16 Dec 2017)

bhavik said:


> I will leave the lights till very last.


Yes, a very wise decision.

Since you haven't mentioned anything about CO2 it's completely unclear at this point whether you are using gaseous CO2, or using a liquid carbon product, or whether this is a low tech tank.

Carbon enrichment is a completely different ball game, so the procedures and equipment requirements are unclear, so you'll need to clarify because I and Ian have been assuming a CO2 tank in our responses.

So for a CO2 gas injected tank, for example, a Fluval 205 may not be adequate but in a low tech tank it may be OK.

Cheers,


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## bhavik (17 Dec 2017)

ceg4048 said:


> Yes, a very wise decision.
> 
> Since you haven't mentioned anything about CO2 it's completely unclear at this point whether you are using gaseous CO2, or using a liquid carbon product, or whether this is a low tech tank.
> 
> ...



Ok as for co2 I wasn’t dosing or adding co2 so far but from yesterday onwards I going to be adding about 5ml of easycarbo everyday just to see if that gets things along.

I would like to keep it low tech but don’t mind dosing easycarbo if it helps with getting the plants along

Why would you say that the fluval 205 wouldn’t be enough?


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## bhavik (18 Dec 2017)

Ceg any help?

Also I have seen some browning on the water wisteria leaves, this is what it looks like. 
What is this and why is this occurring? Is it dying?
It grew great in a small 20 litre tank and moved it to the bigger tank as the plant was pretty large.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (18 Dec 2017)

bhavik said:


> Ceg any help?
> 
> Also I have seen some browning on the water wisteria leaves, this is what it looks like.
> What is this and why is this occurring? Is it dying?
> It grew great in a small 20 litre tank and moved it to the bigger tank as the plant was pretty large.


Hiya mate, the fluval 205 is a small filter for a 200 ltr tank. Looking at the stats it runs at about 680 lph. When you put highish light and inject carbon dioxide into the tank you need to have good circulation around the plants. The general rule of thumb we use is 10x the volume of the tank. Manufacturers also show the turnover without filter media so realistically fully loaded your filter is turning the tank volume over about 3x per hour at best. 

If your lights are lower you can get away with less circulation and no co2. Lowering lights and liquid carbon should brings things back on side and you can add another circulation pump if necessary.

Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


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## ceg4048 (18 Dec 2017)

bhavik said:


> Also I have seen some browning on the water wisteria leaves, this is what it looks like.
> What is this and why is this occurring? Is it dying?
> It grew great in a small 20 litre tank and moved it to the bigger tank as the plant was pretty large.


This is a CO2 and possibly an Oxygen related issue. When you move a plant from one tank to another, the second tank may not have as much dissolved CO2 so it will take a few weeks for the plant to make an adjustment to the new CO2 levels. During that time you may have some leaf die off.

Try using an airstone at night if you have an air pump.

AS AWB mentions, if you are injecting CO2 gas then you need a substantially higher flow rate to move the dissolved gas around the tank. Typically, for gas injection, we suggest at or about 10X the tank volume per hour turnover rating using pumps and filters.

Since you are not injecting gas, you do not have the imperative for such high turnover, but think you may want something a bit stronger than a 205.
If you are not injecting gas then the need to dose high levels of nutrients also is not there. If you dose liquid carbon then yes, it will require higher dosing.

There is a huge difference between a low tech tank and a carbon enriched tank.
If you will dose liquid carbon then you will need to do it consistently every morning and perhaps dose at a higher concentration level than what the bottle suggests.
You're also advised to step up your water changes - 50% per week.

For the browning plant, pull it from the substrate and allow it to float on the water's surface for a week or two. Then replant and see if that helps.



Cheers,


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## bhavik (19 Dec 2017)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Hiya mate, the fluval 205 is a small filter for a 200 ltr tank. Looking at the stats it runs at about 680 lph. When you put highish light and inject carbon dioxide into the tank you need to have good circulation around the plants. The general rule of thumb we use is 10x the volume of the tank. Manufacturers also show the turnover without filter media so realistically fully loaded your filter is turning the tank volume over about 3x per hour at best.
> 
> If your lights are lower you can get away with less circulation and no co2. Lowering lights and liquid carbon should brings things back on side and you can add another circulation pump if necessary.
> 
> Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk



Ok thanks for that! what i have done now is lowered the lights and still dosing co2 to see how things go now. Im thinking of adding a spray bar to the output of the filter would that make any difference?



ceg4048 said:


> This is a CO2 and possibly an Oxygen related issue. When you move a plant from one tank to another, the second tank may not have as much dissolved CO2 so it will take a few weeks for the plant to make an adjustment to the new CO2 levels. During that time you may have some leaf die off.
> 
> Try using an airstone at night if you have an air pump.
> 
> ...



As for that plant i am seeing new shoots all over the plant like its trying to grow new a new plant from the old one im assuming that its a good thing and does that mean my co2 levels are ok?
I run an airstone all day should i cut that down just to night or leave it off all together?
Yes the 205 was given standard when i bought the tank.

also would i still be able to add these plants to my tank and see them grow?

aponogeton boivinianus
Staurogyne reps
Nymphoides sp
Vals nana
Dwarf sag 
Red lotus 

thanks


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## ceg4048 (19 Dec 2017)

bhavik said:


> As for that plant i am seeing new shoots all over the plant like its trying to grow new a new plant from the old one im assuming that its a good thing and does that mean my co2 levels are ok?


Hi,
  New growth is always a good thing and if they mature normally then it means CO2 is OK.
If you are not injecting gas then leaving the airstone on 24/7 is fine.


bhavik said:


> also would i still be able to add these plants to my tank and see them grow?
> 
> aponogeton boivinianus
> Staurogyne reps
> ...


Should be OK theoretically, but again, it depends on whether you have too much light or not.

Cheers,


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## AverageWhiteBloke (19 Dec 2017)

Hard to weigh up this mate, are you adding co2 or just liquid carbon? I think earlier you mentioned you were injecting gas.

If you're injecting gas then the air stone wants to be knocked off during gas and lighting on and just put on at night as the air stone will drive off the co2  you are injecting.

Everything you have done so far will improve your situation, high lighting affects all the other things like flow, nutrients and co2, the lower the lighting the less critical these things are to some extent.

Forcing Plants to grow fast with high lights causes the demand for ferts and co2 to increase and the extra circulation to get them both all around the plants even down to the bottoms. 

If you fail in any the plants suffer and algae takes over. Plants showing symptoms of poor growth and deficiency is the first sign one or all of the above is lacking. Usually co2 if I'm honest.

Less light creates less demand on co2. 

A spray bar may help if positioned right to evenly distribute the water but failing that you can back that up with the various koralia style pumps that are available or the eheim 350 springs to mind. Dual purpose, it will help push a bit of water about and clear surface scum of the water. Maybe look at upgrading the filter at some point or add another and run two smaller ones if the cabinet has room. Filtration inside the filter takes a back seat to the plants anyway, they do most of the filtering and the filter just removes debris and pushes water about. 

Also keep in mind that plants adapt to their environment so don't expect any over night success stories. Make some positive changes like you have and stay with that for maybe four weeks. In the mean time trim off any dying leaves which also cause problems in the tank and look for new growth. Keep on top of changing water and keeping things like the filter and tubing clean.

Reevaluate the situation then and see if further changes are needed like either working on co2 and flow or reducing the light further until you find the right balance. 



Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


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## bhavik (22 Dec 2017)

ceg4048 said:


> Hi,
> New growth is always a good thing and if they mature normally then it means CO2 is OK.
> If you are not injecting gas then leaving the airstone on 24/7 is fine.
> 
> ...


No not injecting gas only adding liquid carbon
As for the lighting I have turned it down and will leave it for a couple of weeks to see how the plants are doing and then will work my way up if need be.
I also wanted to ask my lights are leds where I can change the amount of red blue and green lighting. I know the green makes no difference to the plants but what to ask how much should I keep the red and blue lights at? ATM I’ve only got the white and blue(running at 100%) running.


AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Hard to weigh up this mate, are you adding co2 or just liquid carbon? I think earlier you mentioned you were injecting gas.
> 
> If you're injecting gas then the air stone wants to be knocked off during gas and lighting on and just put on at night as the air stone will drive off the co2  you are injecting.
> 
> ...


No not injecting only using liquid carbon.
Ok thanks for the advice i’ll see how things are going in a couple of weeks with the lighting turned down as it is right now.
I’ll have a look at the wavenakers your talking about and see if that makes a difference


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## ian_m (22 Dec 2017)

bhavik said:


> I know the green makes no difference to the plants but what to ask how much should I keep the red and blue lights at?


Plants don't really care. Adjust the RGB values (and more importantnly intensity) so that the plants look good to your eyes. Plants will use whatever light you throw at them. Aim for Kelvin settings off around 6000-8000 makes the plants stand out.

See here how the different K ratings make your tank look.
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/cheap-ho-t5-fluorescent-tubes-update-with-photos.555/


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## bhavik (23 Dec 2017)

thanks for that!
How would I know if the lights I’ve giving right now are between 6000-8000K right now I’m running white blue and green.
Thanks


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## AverageWhiteBloke (23 Dec 2017)

bhavik said:


> How would I know if the lights I’ve giving right now are between 6000-8000K right now I’m running white blue and green.



You don't mate and as mentioned it doesn't matter if you are or not. Set the RGB values to make the plants look greener to your eyes. Between 6000 and 8000 is suggested because this colour range is yellower and warmer making greens looks natural. Going higher makes the lights whiter and a bit unnatural looking if you go too high. The plants won't care, they'll just pick up and use the photons whatever wavelength they come in.


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## bhavik (1 Jan 2018)

Hi thanks for that i have tried to adjust the lights as best i could here is a video of my tank and plants after i added a spray bar is that better? or should i tilt the spray bar a bit more up to increase flow?
Also right now the plants aint looking great i dont know if its because they are adjusting or dying?
the Vals look fine but the other plants are a bit touch and go i would say.

http://sendvid.com/bmrwupze


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## bhavik (4 Jan 2018)

any help please?


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