# Is there something wrong with my water?



## drooke (2 Jan 2015)

Hi all,

I've lost some fish recently, given the tank a clean out and done a 25%ish water change with HMA filtered water. It's looking bright and clean again.

On Saturday I went to buy some new fish and bought two Whiptails, two Cory Arcuantas (to add to my existing 4), six Congo Tetras and two Rabbit Snails. 

I noticed that the Whiptails didn't really move yesterday and coming back from work tonight they're still in the same position and had died. The snails haven't really emerged from there shells either in the last day, not sure how to tell if they're okay. The corys and tetras seem happy though.

So I'm a bit gutted and would like the know if there's anything wrong with my water with these deaths and the earlier deaths of a couple of corys.

The tank is a big 350 litre Rena with an Eheim 2080 filter filled with Alfa Grog, Eheim Substrat Pro and some Purigen. I've never regenerated the Purigen yet but some is still white. It has a 300W Hydor external heater with tank temperature being 27C which stays constant. For Substrate I have Tropica Plant Substrate topped with play sand. I have mostly Amazon Swords and some floating Salvinia which regularly likes to take over the top of the tank. The substrate has been in now for about 3.5 years. I use a Devotedly Discus HMA 80-C three cartridge system for fresh water but I don't do many water changes. I have quite a low pH I believe at roughly 6, this is right on the boundary of the two test kits I have.

Looking up the common Whiptail species they should be fine in my pH and temperature water. I do take timein acclimating the fish also after their half an hour journey home from the shop, I open the bags and introduce a cup full of tank water 2/3 times every 5 minutes for about 15 minutes in total. I don't like to leave it longer as that seems to have caused me problems in the past.

Any help or advice appreciated. It makes me feel like giving up the hobby to be honest when I buy nice healthy looking fish get them home and they die a day or two later.

Thanks,

Dan


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## GHNelson (2 Jan 2015)

Hi Dan
Are you dosing Co2?
Do use water conditioner?
hoggie


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## kirk (2 Jan 2015)

Hi Dan, my first question is where did you purchase from, I'd question the supply before pannic, could be some fish that didn't get quarenteed property or over fed or under before you got them especially this time of year with hols and store been closed.


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## drooke (2 Jan 2015)

Thanks for the replies.

I don't add CO2, no fertilisers either and no tap water conditioner with using the HMA filter.

Fish were from World of Water in Manchester but I rate their selection and stock, making the trip from Yorkshire. Certainly one of the better shops. I guess it could be under feeding over Christmas, are whiptails particularly vulnerable to this?

Thanks,

Dan


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## ian_m (2 Jan 2015)

One of the issues with HMA filters is the carbon pre-filter can be quickly used up by chlorine/chloramine in the water, once used the chlorine/chloramine passes straight through the filter into your tank, despite the rest of the filter working fine. As you don't know your chlorine/chloramine levels it is hard to work out carbon lifetime.

Obviously the solution is to dose your water with a dechlorinator eg Prime all the time.


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## darren636 (2 Jan 2015)

You need at least an hour to acclimate fish.
The longer the better, just to be safe


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## drooke (2 Jan 2015)

The HMA filter is less than a year old and hasn't filtered much water in it's lifetime as I don't do very regular water changes, maybe 700 litres at most. I always make sure I flush about 10 litres of water through it to clear out the standing water and then put the fresh into the tank. I would be surprised if the carbon filter was spent on this basis, what do you think?

I do try and steer clear of long acclimatisation times due to potential for suffocation if they've traveled a little way and some of the corys I have are believed to self poison when stressed so I give them about 15-20 minutes generally with a cup full of tank water every 5 minutes. Is this too fast?

Dan


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## GreenNeedle (3 Jan 2015)

I was going to say about the acclimatising method.  Seems to much in too short a time to me.

When I get fish or shrimp I carefully open the bag up in 2.5ltr pot.  That would normally fill a fifth or so.  Then I drip acclimatise them at circa 1 drip a second for however long it takes to fill the pot.  (When it is half full I will normally speed the drip up a bit)  Then I float it for half an hour to match temps then put them in.  Sometimes its a couple of hours from start to release sometimes 4.  I just let it run until its done.

Not suggesting you need to take as long as me or do the drip but I would say changing big amounts is not a good idea.  If you need to do it in 15 minutes then I would at least decrease the amount you change to 1/4 cup every minute or something rather than a couple of big changes especially as you are adding 6ph and I would find it surprising if the water they come in is as low as that.

Not sure I understand the suffocation part?  How does that happen.  When Corys are delivered they are in the 'post' being stressed out for up to 24 hours.  Not sure the difference between 15 minutes and an hour will affect poisoning.  They will have been more stressed over that 24 hour period than when they are left still in a pot for an hour.  I've never had a problem with Corys through delivery nor acclimatising.

I use rainwater with no Chlorine/Chloramine in it as well as tap water in a ratio of 3:1.  I always calculate the dechlor as if it was all tap water just in case there is anything else there.  Dechlor is cheap so I don't skimp.  Fish and shrimp (even if you are only buying cheaper fish) are much pricier than dechlor.


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## sciencefiction (3 Jan 2015)

There could be a number of reasons why the fish died but there are a few questionable points in what you mentioned that may have caused that.
The first one, as already suggested, is the acclimation method. Fish not acclimated properly do just that when dropped into new water conditions, freeze. Some adapt eventually, some die. That's from personal experience. Some people swear by drop and flop method, for me it resulted on fish loss from time to time although not all died.    
I drip acclimate until I match the conditions with those of the tank. But it's important not to acclimate in the bag itself as the method on how you secure it to the tank can indeed suffocate them as soon as the bag is opened. This is to do with lack of surface area if you have squished the opening of the bag in order to secure it.
So I pour the contents in a big container, such as a bucket. I connect the drip(mine is just an air tube with knots to control the flow), it doesn't have to be extremely slow drip, fast enough to double the water amount in 30-45 min or less, but slower at the start and then I increase the drip after the first hour.  I normally remove old water at the same time as soon as it's doubled but eventually I make sure the bucket stays full and I just remove some at the top, to give the fish room to swim as they normally come in very little water.
I drip acclimate until the TDS of the water is the same as in the tank. I top up the tank itself with fresh dechlorinated water at the same time so I don't even switch off the filters.
 Before when I had no TDS meter I used a normal liquid Ph test kit instead to match both water stats eventually but it's not as accurate. Alternatively, depending on the source water, it takes anything between 1hr and 2.5hrs even without testing.
I make sure the bucket is covered and fish are in the dark(dark bucket). They really do stress out otherwise. If you take a peak by removing the towel covering the bucket, they get really spooked.
Once it's finished I move them to my tank and fish normally start behaving straight away as if they always lived in the tank, and start exploring and even eating, providing there are no predators to chase them around.
 If you even sneak a peak in the bucket carefully some time after the first hour of acclimation, the fish already swim around exploring the bucket itself in a comfortable manner. There should be no pale, skittish fish if acclimated properly.

And on the contrary, if you acclimate in a bag, placed in the tank, you can see how scared they are no matter how long you acclimate for. I've seen my fish turning bellies just while acclimating them this way.


And my second point is, what's the real ph of your tank water? Ph of 6 is like the lowest the liquid test kits show. Unless you've tested with a test that shows lower, you don't even know how lower your ph is. And that kind of ph in a non-co2 tank points to a very low kh and a fluctuating ph too.  Some fish that have lived that way may adapt in a way depending on the species, but losing fish for no reason and disease outbreaks is common in these conditions. Fish don't mind the ph but like it stable and not moving.  New fish will have tough time adapting. I'd invest in a Kh test kit and I am almost certain by what you said that you won't measure much of it, if any at all.


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## sciencefiction (3 Jan 2015)

I actually took a video once of my ottos just after acclimating them for 3 hours as they came from vastly different conditions and a several hour trip.  I was discussing the same topic at the time so took some "proof".  It's from almost 2 years ago.

Here is them just after placing them in the tank after acclimation and ottos are one of those that "freeze" if not acclimated properly. They actually started exploring and polishing the glass instantly.

And this one is from the same day of acclimation some time later.


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## dw1305 (3 Jan 2015)

Hi all,





drooke said:


> I noticed that the Whiptails didn't really move yesterday and coming back from work tonight they're still in the same position and had died. The snails haven't really emerged from there shells either in the last day, not sure how to tell if they're okay. The corys and tetras seem happy though.


 Sorry to hear that. You need to take back the snails, they need hard alkaline water and are doomed in your tank.

Do you know if the Whiptails were wild caught, and what <"genus"> they were ? If they were wild caught they have a poor record of survival, possibly because of the conditions they were kept in after capture and the shock of transportation. Additionally they may not have recognised dried food as food, and they need a higher protein diet until they've recovered. Another issue with wild caught is that they may have come from an area with cooler water in S. Brazil, it wouldn't be a temperature issue as such but probably a dissolved oxygen issue. 

If they were <"L10a">? a water/tank issue is more likely. Have a we got a photo? "_Bright and clean_" actually worries me a lot, slightly fuzzy and tannin stained might be better for long term survival, fort any of these types of fish. I like some dead leaves and biofilm in the tank. One advantage of some tannins in the water is that they will complex any heavy metals in the water, which could be an issue in soft water.  

The late Bob Marklew (macvsog23 in the linked post), a fantastic Loricariid keeper & breeder, was successful with fish like <"_Lamontichthys llanero">, _I'm sure part of the reason was that he kept mulmy tanks, but with very clean water and high levels of oxygenation. 

I must admit I don't acclimatize any of the fish I buy, I try and get them into the tank as rapidly as possible under their own steam.  I usually turn the lights off, open the bag and let the tank water in. If after 30 minutes the fish are still in the bag, I just tip them in. I work on the theory that the water in the tank is definitely going to be better quality than the water in the bag, so the sooner they are in the tank water the better. 

cheers Darrel


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## drooke (4 Jan 2015)

Thanks for the replies.

No movement from the snails so I've put them in a second tank I have which has a slightly higher pH to see if they reemerge.

It seems like the length of the acclimatising period is up for debate from your comments but there does seem to be a common element in that you all seem to drip your tank water in rather than put larger amounts in less frequently as I normally do. Perhaps this was the problem here for the Whiptails if they're sensitive to it. I'm afraid I'm not sure what genus they were, simply listed as 'Whiptail catfish' in the shop although I doubt they were wild caught at £12 each. From the photos, I think they were *Hemiloricaria lanceolata.*

And here's the tank just now:




 

I've just tested the water and measure pH at 6 (the lowest I can test for) and kH at 0. I'm sure I had a low pH test kit but can't lay my hands on it. Are these too low for stable water conditions and good fish health then? My tap water has a higher pH so I suspect it may be the Tropica Plant Substrate which lowers it, perhaps changing substrate would improve matters with the right acclimation for the fish? I do tend to lose the odd fish every now and then for no apparent reason.

Thanks for the help so far, I'd like to get to the bottom of this and fix it for the future.

Dan


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## sciencefiction (4 Jan 2015)

Kh is used up during nitrification, the more stock, food, the more ammonia, the faster the Kh drops. Substrates do drop it, but just temporary when new.
I've seen it happen in new tanks, such as overfed fry tanks and in old tanks, such as those that get little to none water changes. In any scenario it leads to the same result, the Kh drops, then the Ph drops, and older inhabitants start to die, new fish tend to introduce diseases and the owner starts pumping all sorts of meds in desperation. I don't know the condition in which your new fish were in, but acclimating fish to those conditions would be very difficult for any already weakened fish.  And if the conditions stay like that, you'll see more deaths.

My advice is, don't even bother testing the Ph as it's value doesn't matter, it just needs not moving at all(in a non-co2 tank). Start testing the Kh, first your tap. If it's solidly higher than your tank, then do enough water changes to bring the Kh back up, which in turn will bring the Ph up. And then keep it where it stabilises.  You may need to figure how often and how big water changes you have to do to keep the tank stable. Bringing the ph back up has to be a slow process, as to not to stress them again but think of it as new acclimation and do it very slowly.

Normally with the right amount of regular water changes, the Kh doesn't drop to a 0 and the tank stays "stable". If that's not the case, either water changes need to be upped depending on your source water, or you need to use artificial measures such as a bit of crushed coral in the filters. This won't raise the Kh or the Ph much but it will keep the Kh stable, even if low, as long as your tap doesn't have a kh of just 0-1 max.

When you get your tank water back on track, get new fish but acclimate them properly, at least in my opinion it's important, and you'll see how differently they'll behave upon introduction, and how "fish shop borne diseases" such as ich and the likes will no longer be an issue.


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## GreenNeedle (5 Jan 2015)

drooke said:


> I've just tested the water and measure pH at 6 (the lowest I can test for) and kH at 0. I'm sure I had a low pH test kit but can't lay my hands on it. Are these too low for stable water conditions and good fish health then? My tap water has a higher pH so I suspect it may be the Tropica Plant Substrate which lowers it, perhaps changing substrate would improve matters with the right acclimation for the fish? I do tend to lose the odd fish every now and then for no apparent reason.
> 
> Thanks for the help so far, I'd like to get to the bottom of this and fix it for the future.
> 
> Dan



Like above I wouldn't worry about the Tropica or the Ph in the tank.  The Tropica might (or might not) have sucked up KH in its first few days or first couple of water changes but if its past that stage then it shouldn't suck up more.  Are you sure the KH is 0?  If so I suspect your tap water is naturally much lower than neutral.


When you say your tap water is higher is that after a day or straight out of the tap?  Water companies adjust their water so that it is as close to neutral (7) as it can be straight out of the tap.  It may be that your tap water has been adjusted up whereas mine is adjusted down.  i.e. straight out of the tap mine is  7.2.  After a day it is 8.4 after the CO2 has gassed off.


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## drooke (6 Jan 2015)

I've done some more tests on my tap water, both fresh from the tap and some that has stood for 24 hours.

Fresh from tap:

pH: 7
kH: 0

Stood for 24 hours:

pH: 6.8
kH: 0

So based on those values, something in the tank seems to be reducing the pH but the kH is naturally low. 

What are the best things to do here to improve the situation, presumably find the reason why pH of the tank water is lower? I do have some crushed oyster shell which i believe can help increase kH but I'm guessing I'll need a fair amount of this to make a difference. Any suggestions appreciated, hopefully things that aren't lots of additional maintenance.

Thanks,

Dan


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## sciencefiction (6 Jan 2015)

The Ph will fluctuate with a Kh of 0 so not surprise about the different ph values. It's best if you find a way to raise the Kh slightly so you get more stable conditions.


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## dw1305 (7 Jan 2015)

Hi all,
The tank looks fine. My suspicion would be that the problem was with the Whip-tails, not the tank water. If you get some more, I'd put <"some tubes in for them">, and some "structural leaf litter" 





drooke said:


> crushed oyster shell


 Yes, add a bit of "Oyster Shell Grit". With apologies for the cross-post, but this looks at a very similar situation. <"My water conditions, help, do I need RO or HMA or neither">.

cheers Darrel


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## drooke (10 Jan 2015)

Thanks for the replies. So the message is I need to raise my kH to stop any pH swings. 

To do this, I can get a big filter bag to hold all the crushed oyster shell I have (a decent handfull) in the filter, will this be sufficient to raise kH? Will it raise it slowly or quickly? What kH should I aim for? I guess I can always add more to raise it further.

How do I handle water changes? My tap water has a higher pH and no kH to it which is different to the tank water I'm aiming for, so is it a case of little and often? What is 'little', how many litres should I aim for given the size of my tank?

I have a couple of good sized pleco slate caves in the tank, is there any difference between these and the tubes as far as the fish are concerned?

What leaf litter should I get? Indian almond leaves? I've just been reading these can lower pH which I think I need to avoid. Leaf litter is new to me!

Thanks,

Dan


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## sciencefiction (10 Jan 2015)

drooke said:


> To do this, I can get a big filter bag to hold all the crushed oyster shell I have (a decent handfull) in the filter, will this be sufficient to raise kH? Will it raise it slowly or quickly? What kH should I aim for? I guess I can always add more to raise it further.


 
How fast it makes a change depends on the tank itself, but normally it's not too fast to cause a problem, sometimes it may take a couple of weeks to see any readable change.  As you said, you can always put more later on. Any readable Kh would be fine, possibly 2-4 is what you need.



drooke said:


> so is it a case of little and often?


 
Yes, I'd probably stick to this.



drooke said:


> What leaf litter should I get? Indian almond leaves? I've just been reading these can lower pH which I think I need to avoid


 
Leaf litter lowers the Kh, and it turn may or may have an effect on the Ph because of that, so it's contradictory to putting oyster shells.


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## sciencefiction (10 Jan 2015)

drooke said:


> I have a couple of good sized pleco slate caves in the tank, is there any difference between these and the tubes as far as the fish are concerned?


 
Not sure, but probably doesn't make a difference


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## dw1305 (10 Jan 2015)

Hi all,





drooke said:


> Thanks for the replies. So the message is I need to raise my kH to stop any pH swings.
> 
> To do this, I can get a big filter bag to hold all the crushed oyster shell I have (a decent handfull) in the filter, will this be sufficient to raise kH? Will it raise it slowly or quickly? What kH should I aim for? I guess I can always add more to raise it further.
> 
> ...


 Yes, a filter bag is fine for the shell grit.  It will depend on how much water you change as to how much your dKH varies, I change about 10% of the tank water a day on smaller tanks, on larger tanks (over 100 litres) you can change a smaller proportion of water. 

You can ignore the pH of the tap water, it all comes from NaOH, and doesn't add any buffering (all the OH- ions are in solution). The leaf litter won't have much effect on pH, Oak or beech leaves are good, you don't need _Terminalia_ leaves.

Whiptails won't make use of pleco caves they are too big, they really like open ended tubes (like Bamboo).

cheers Darrel


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## drooke (24 Jan 2015)

Thanks for the further replies. I've ordered some bits which have arrived. I haven't got any leaf litter in yet but will keep an eye out for some.

I have lost another cory and a cardinal since my last post, hopefully no more to come.

I've just put a big bag of washed and boiled oyster crushed shell into my filter during maintenance. Hopefully this will increase the dKH, I plan to test the water again in about a week and see if there's any difference.

Thanks,

Dan


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## drooke (7 Feb 2015)

Since my last update I've tested the dKH twice, once every week. The API test kit I have is a little difficult to test with, with the first drop of solution added to the water sample the water should turn blue and then with repeated drops it should eventually turn yellow. For these last two tests I've done, it seems that there may now be some low reading of dKH due to the water turning very pale yellow on the first drop and not the stronger yellow it turns with the second. So I don't believe I'm at 0 dKH anymore but don't know exactly what the reading is.

Anecdotally, my fish seem much more active - in particular the corys which would previously gather in groups and remain stationary for long periods. This can only be a good thing.

In the last couple of days I have noticed the tank water turning a pale brown colour. I haven't made any other changes except for the filter maintenance and additional of oyster shell a couple of weeks ago. Not sure if this is related or a good/bad thing.

Dan


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## sciencefiction (12 Feb 2015)

This is good news. As long as you have any kind of reading, then the stats will stabilize. KH is essential in a fish tank(not in nature because it's not an enclosed environment and other factors come into play) The most useful bacs in a fish tank depend on KH, so any readable measure is good enough as long as it stays like that.

And you are right that your fish should start getting better. What happens to them in a tank with no Kh is shocking experience.  Once you have the tank stable for a few weeks maybe you can try getting the fish you want but I still recommend drip acclimation.


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