# Another user with CO2 Issues



## sonicninja

Hi everyone,
So another CO2 distribution thread from me as I'm clearly still not quite understanding what's causing lack of growth in my tank. 

To summarise Ive had pretty much the same set-up for a while now and over time have fiddled with various power-heads, CO2 bps & on/off time, lights,etc, etc, etc. 
At each stage I've had varying degrees of success but never got the balance completely right and gone through a lot of plants in the process. I started with some more demanding plants and am now working on 'beginner' plants such as Hygrophilia to get me going.

Anyway, my main issue is that some plants just don't seem to settle in and take off. They drop leaves (particularly the stauro repens) and eventually loose all of them just leaving a rotting stem and no root structure. The same occurs with my Hygrophilia lancea which sits not exactly dying but doesn't root for months until it also looses leaves. 

I have increased CO2 BPS and on time to gain a lime green drop checker by lights on but this doesn't seem to have made any discernible difference. The repens still sits there unhappily and eventually rots, irritating since it once did well but I haven't been able to replicate the conditions which it grew well under.

I've listed my set-up and parameters below. I'd really love some feedback on how to improve my direction of flow or anything you think I might have missed. I very nearly gave this all up last month but decided to plod on as im determined to get it all to work in harmony. 

*Schedule-*
CO2 On/Off 13:00/22:30
Lights On/Off 17:00/00:00 @ 27% Intensity
CO2 Approx 3-4bps
Dosing EI Mon-Sat
1ml Easy Carbo Daily
50% Water Change Sunday


*Equipment-*
2KG FE running to an in-tank atomizer. Hydor Pico 200 lies approx 6 inches above the atomizer
Eheim 250T filter cleaned every 2 weeks minimum filled with purigen & Bio media
1 x Hyor 650lph powerhead running 24/7 giving a slight surface ripple
1 x Hydor 200lph powerhead on with CO2 between 13:00-22:30


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## sonicninja




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## Ryan Thang To

Hi would you like to try a different type of lily outflow and see you it goes. Your one that you using are for surface movement is that right?

Cheers
Ryan


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## parotet

Hi sonicninja

I think some pH readings would help to understand what is happening in your tank. 

Jordi


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## sonicninja

The current lily pipe I have is supposed to help with surface movement but it really doesn't cause any. It's naturally positioned too far down in the tank. I do have another one which wins down more which I could try. 

Thanks parotet. Perhaps this is worth me doing again. Last time I attempted this was before I changed my lights and CO2 schedule and I never could get a pH point drop before lights on.


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## Ryan Thang To

Yep I would definitely try that and see how it goes

Cheers
Ryan


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## pepedopolous

I second the pH readings idea! Also have you got any livestock? If not all the more reason to pump in loads of CO2! 

Unless you have really really hard water, keep increasing the bubble count each day until you have a 1pH unit drop before lights on.


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## sonicninja

I do have it lightly stocked. 2xotos (+2 fry), 4 x pygmy Corys. I intend to get 10 cardinals this week too but perhaps since I'll be upping gas I should wait for the time being. I'll up the gas very slightly and see how it goes.


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## 13r0wn7

I use this chart. 
Basically I take a KH reading and then a PH reading before I add co2 and the monitor the ph every hour to see how it is!






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## pepedopolous

I see you keep your filter nice and clean. I've just found out how important this is as I've had an outbreak of BBA. I think I'd just forgotten how fast the flow used to be until I cleaned my filter the other day for the first time in more than a few months!

On the same note, if your filter is 'filled' with biomedia, what about throwing half of it away? This will increase the flow rate of your filter at no extra cost.

Also, I dunno if you get any surface scum but the Eheim Skim 350 (instead of your Hydors) can sort it out and as a side effect, really helps with gas exchange.[DOUBLEPOST=1405890339][/DOUBLEPOST]





sonicninja said:


> I do have it lightly stocked. 2xotos (+2 fry), 4 x pygmy Corys. I intend to get 10 cardinals this week too but perhaps since I'll be upping gas I should wait for the time being. I'll up the gas very slightly and see how it goes.



The best advice I've ignored to my cost, is getting fish before I'd sorted CO2 out.


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## sonicninja

I really feel like flow isn't my issue. I can physically see all the plants moving in the flow, I am though unsure if the flow is directed appropriately. All the flow is in one direction-from right to left. The filter is filled but since I clean it so regularly the flow remains high but I will bear this in mind. 
I did get surface scum but the hydor pico at the surface sorts this out subtly. Would a surface skimmer do this better? I'm a little unsure if I want surface agitation or not...?
Thanks everyone


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## sonicninja

Thanks for the chart too 13r0wn7


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## Michael W

sonicninja this thread maybe able to help you regarding flow distribution http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/right-distribution-with-spray-bars-on-front.22048/#post-225808


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## sonicninja

Wow, I've skimmed it but I'll have a good read of that tomorrow. Many thanks.


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## Ryan Thang To

sonicninja said:


> I really feel like flow isn't my issue. I can physically see all the plants moving in the flow, I am though unsure if the flow is directed appropriately. All the flow is in one direction-from right to left. The filter is filled but since I clean it so regularly the flow remains high but I will bear this in mind.
> I did get surface scum but the hydor pico at the surface sorts this out subtly. Would a surface skimmer do this better? I'm a little unsure if I want surface agitation or not...?
> Thanks everyone


surface agitation is a good thing and you can turn up co2 a little bit more if you have livestock


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## parotet

If you don't reach a pH drop that means that something is not doing well... You are not dissolving co2 for any reason!
Have a look to the co2, spraybars, pH profiles threads... Plenty of good information and nice review of all the things to be taken into account to adjust co2 in a planted tank

Jordi


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## sonicninja

So I read the thread about usign a spray bar to create a more efficient CO2 distribution and flow. Its worth mentioning that do have a fair amount of decor such as wood and rock so is investing in a spray bar and in-line atmoizer a worthwhile test?


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## Lindy

before spending more money could you take the livestock out and try cranking up the co2?


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## sonicninja

Sadly it's my only tank so I have nowhere to put the fish.


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## ceg4048

sonicninja said:


> So I read the thread about usign a spray bar to create a more efficient CO2 distribution and flow. Its worth mentioning that do have a fair amount of decor such as wood and rock so is investing in a spray bar and in-line atmoizer a worthwhile test?


Yes, but only if the flow through the filter is sufficient, otherwise the energy will peter out. According to the brochures, the pump output of the Eheim 250T is an anemic 700LPH, which means a filter stuffed with media will only get you around 300-350LPH. Removing the biomedia and using just cheap foam will improve the throughput significantly.

This scheme can be further augmented by dividing the tank length by 3 and placing each of the powerheads at 1/3 the distance from either end wall just above or just below the spraybar. You do not need to spend a lot of money on spraybars. Fluval and Eheim both make simple plastic spraybars, or you can DIY using cheap and readily available PVC piping.

An inline diffuser will be better than an in tank device, however, again just port the gas directly into the filter inlet tube and allow the filter to be your diffuser.

This will all look ugly but aesthetics is not the goal at this time. After the problems with plant health are resolved you can then look for more elegant hardware that accomplishes the same as the rough and tumble hardware.

As always, dropping the lights to no more than about 15%-20% will help the plants to recover, and increasing the liquid carbon dosages will also help in the short term.

pH profile checks should be accomplished in order to ascertain the benefit of any changes made.

Cheers,


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## sonicninja

Thank-you ceg4048. Thats great advice so many thanks.
Given my decor layout do you still feel its worth ago with this method?
I think Ive got a perspex spray bar knocking about for the meantime and if not I'll get hold of one. I'll also put the CO2 in-line diffuser on the filter inlet (not something I would have thought to do).

The filter currently has two large baskets above the heating element. One filled with ceramic rings and eheim bio-balls, the other is filled with larger black teatra-tech balls. If i empty one of these do you think this will achieve the increased flow and not sacrifice my biological filtration?



ceg4048 said:


> This will all look ugly but aesthetics is not the goal at this time.


I think to be fair with all the equipment in the tank at the moment it wont look any worse


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## sonicninja

So i've finally a little luck. Found in my spares box a tetra tech persex spray bar, its 3/4 the length of the tank so I will try and get hold of another spare bit. I'll sort the in line atmomizer too and see how I go!


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## ceg4048

Hi,
   Definitely get rid of the noodles. They are by far the worst offenders of flow robbery because they are specifically designed to slow the flow so that heavier particles fall out of solution. You will not sacrifice bio-filtration because that's the job of the plants. When you feed the plants with flow and CO2 they will return more than you will have lost by removing the media. In any case, remove the noodles and leave the balls for the moment.

Mount the spraybar in the center so that there will be space on either end to mount each of the two powerheads. Mount the powerheads even with the bar so that all the flow effluents line up like soldiers all facing towards the front glass. Do NOT mount the powerheads close to the left and right walls, but rather closer to the center of the tank. Try that configuration in combination with the removal of the noodles while pumping the gas into the filter inlet and see how it goes. Take the pH profile if you are home to measure.

The more obstackes you have in the tank, such as stones and plants, the more important it is to use the spraybar and flow in the manner described above.

Cheers,


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## 13r0wn7

Hello Clive,
My canister goes as follows:

Bottom tray - course -medium - fine foam

Next tray course foam

Next - noodles

Top tray - course foam and finer foam at the top.

If this was your filter how would you configure it?

Also in my tank i have a 1 meter spray bar which is nearly the length of the tank, but either end looses out slightly, I have 2 power heads 1 is the nano 1600 and the other is the korila 3200 although I took this out because it seemed much for my tank.. Maybe I was wrong?

I currently have my nano powerhead on the left hand side pointing to the front (opposite side of intake) 
Would you move this to the Centre? 


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## pepedopolous

Hey

Sorry to butt in. By 'noodles' do you mean the black plastic tubes?

P


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## 13r0wn7

No the cermic cylinder shape with a hole through the middle 


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## pepedopolous

OK thanks. I have the 350T which has black plastic tubes in the bottom tray.


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## sonicninja

Cheers Clive. I'll ditch the ceramic media and give this set-up a go at the weekend. Fingers crossed!


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## parotet

sonicninja said:


> So I read the thread about usign a spray bar to create a more efficient CO2 distribution and flow. Its worth mentioning that do have a fair amount of decor such as wood and rock so is investing in a spray bar and in-line atmoizer a worthwhile test?


Well that was exactly my situation and that's what I did. Well to be honest I began with a pH profile and then modified some of the things mentioned: spraybar, change to inline atomizer, timings, simplify hardscape, move some plants, change bubble rate and play with different levels of surface rippling. It took me two months to test all this and have a suitable pH drop. Then it took some weeks to notice a significant biomass development. The tank I'm talking about is just 60 cm long but has two medium redmoors
plenty of branches... Beautiful but a nightmare to be my first high tech!

Jordi


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## ceg4048

13r0wn7 said:


> My canister goes as follows:
> Bottom tray - course -medium - fine foam
> Next tray course foam
> Next - noodles
> Top tray - course foam and finer foam at the top.
> If this was your filter how would you configure it?


Well, same advice really, ditch the noodles - a vampyric invention designed to suck the life blood out of your filter, leaving it forever in a state of "undead."
I guess if you're a purist, the foam can follow the water path and be in the sequence of coarse to fine. If you use Purigen, or other chemical media  like activated carbon (which works great by the way) then it should be the final filtration stage just so that it stays relatively clean. I think Fluval sells foam pads with a carbon layer also.
I really don't fret too much about filter media and sequencing, it's just not worth the energy. Whatever material you put in the filter will develop a bacterial colony - even if the packaging says something different. So noodles do plenty of biological filtration even though they are marketed as "mechanical filtration". 
For our purposes it's all just another illusion of The Matrix. We want to maximize flow throughput, because in a CO2 injected tank flow is King. Everything else is a distant secondary concern. Plants quickly uptake NH3/NH4 as nutrition, so we really don't need all that specialty stuff. The higher the plant mass the more thoroughly the job is done - and they pump Oxygen back into the water and sediment, which supports a more efficient bacterial load, so who cares if someone is selling overpriced special magic media with a gazillion square meters of surface area? That has no advantage whatsoever. A fish only tank is a different story because there is no method of NH3/NH4 removal other than the filter media.

So hobbyists coming from a fish only background worry needlessly about the wrong things. Put lots of plants in the tank and do all the things that foster _their _health. They, in turn, will make the tank healthier.



13r0wn7 said:


> Also in my tank i have a 1 meter spray bar which is nearly the length of the tank, but either end looses out slightly, I have 2 power heads 1 is the nano 1600 and the other is the korila 3200 although I took this out because it seemed much for my tank.. Maybe I was wrong?
> I currently have my nano powerhead on the left hand side pointing to the front (opposite side of intake)
> Would you move this to the Centre?


Well, if the output of the powerheads are too strong and cause too much commotion then you can do the opposite of what I advised sonicnija to do regarding their placement. Placing them near the tank walls will neutralize their output somewhat. Another alternative with overpowered pumps is to orient the flow scheme from left/right  i.e. across the tank because although the distance is longer, the muscle of the pumps will now carry the energy the longer distance. That means the spraybar can be shorter and thus it too will have a more even pressure across it's now shorter length. There are a couple of ways to skin the cat so just try different schemes and placements. Sure, you could just remove the nano and place the 3200 in the center. The only real rules here are that all effluent should work together and point in the same direction, AND always use the pH profile check to validate any new flow/distribution scheme.

Cheers,


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## sonicninja

So a little update. I've ordered a new bubble counter to attach directly to my reg/solenoid and also an in line atomizer. 
These should arrive tomorrow but to get me started and whilst doing a water change I swapped the lily pipe outflow and placed in the spray bar. 

Immediately I could already see how the spray bar arrangement creates a predictable flow pattern through the tank, you can track particles in the water through the circular shape when looking through the sides of the aquarium. 

Now that I've put the first stage of this change together I have noted a few things. 

Firstly the flow seems immense, ive removed all the ceramic dense media from my filter and now the single basket of black plastic balls remains alongside the pre-filter foam. I may have to re-arrange the spray bar higher at some point as its a fixed depth meaning the spray bar sits quite low in the tank. This means that if i angle the spray bar to aim at the front glass i can see some of the water hitting the glass and being deflected up towards the surface, its not easy to explain it but I've drawn the crudest picture ever to illustrate this (its a view from the side of the tank and the circular thing is the spray bar). I'm presuming that this is essentially still pretty inefficient since we want all the CO2 enriched water circling 'under'....but someone may correct me on this.
Also I've noticed that the plants at the rear are getting a little battered by the spray bar so hopefully raising this will help. 

In other aquarium news I've raised the lights up to a more sensible height, exciting. 

Finally (this is to ceg4048 ) with the flow being pretty brutal as is it and with me frequently cleaning the filter do you think the additional powerheads are still necessary? I only ask since at the moment it looks like strong flow and that any additional flow might be overkill...?

Thanks again everyone!


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## sonicninja




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## ceg4048

Hi mate,
             You have mounted the spraybar too low. That's why there is a deflection upwards. The holes of the spraybar should be within 1 tube diameter of the surface, pointing horizontally, NEVER downwards. If the flow is too much then add more filter media. Now, YOU are in control of the flow throughput. You can add really useful media such as activated carbon or Purigen to clarify the water even more.

As plant mass increases, what you now think is immense may soon become inadequate, especially at the lower reaches and corners. The effectiveness of this scheme is determined by how well the plants in the most disadvantaged locations grow. Plants that are sitting behind rocks will need extra flow to overcome their disadvantage even though at other, less critical locations the flow may seem excessive.

In any case, only the plants can answer you question as to whether there is too much, not enough, or just right flow. Try using the spraybar only and then after a few weeks try adding powerheads to see if there is a difference. Number of supplemental pumps or position of filter outflow devices should always be done with geometric symmetry in mind. If adding one extra pump then it should be positioned in the center. If adding two then they should be mounted equidistant from the two end walls and at the same vertical distance. Always avoid placing flow effluent in such a manner as to cause collision or opposing flow.

If you keep these general principles in mind then you will be able to devise any variety of successful flow schemes.

Cheers,


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## sonicninja

Cheers for that. Ive since moved the spray bar up and I'll change the angle when i get home this evening. Like youve suggested i'll see how it goes and add the powerheads furthur down the line if the flow is insufficient. 

The filter currently contains a small quanitity of purigen which sits in the otherwise empty filter basket. 

Many thanks again, much appreciated.


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## Sacha

Things are looking up! 

Clive, just wondering why you say the spray bar should never be angled downwards?


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## ceg4048

Hi Sacha,
                Pointing the bar down defeats the purpose and has the same effect that sonicninja just observed when the bar was mounted too low. We want the front glass to do the work of deflecting the flow downward and to move unimpeded across the sediment towards the back wall. That movement is interfered with when the flow is pointed downward. Movement towards the front wall is reduced and the deflections that occur are not in the preferred direction of down and back.

Cheers,


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## Sacha

So by that token, you don't want anything to interfere with the directional flow the spray bar provides. Which means adding any power heads is just counter- productive, as they alter the directionality of the circulation?


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## ceg4048

Sometimes the filter throughput in the spraybar is weak and the jets don't quite reach the front glass. In such a case the powerhead flow will push the water along to the front and will drag more flow along with it to the front. Ideally, it would be better to have all the flow coming through the bars, but if that is not possible then the powerheads are the next best thing. 
As I mentioned, if the powerheads are pointing in the same direction as the holes then their flows cooperate. It gets deflected by the wall and moves down towards the substrate. If the powerhead is pointed in a way that opposes the spraybar flow then yes, it will be counterproductive. There is always some interference when multiple devices are used. It's just not possible to be perfect, but that isn't the goal. The goal is to maintain an overall movement of water in the tubular shape, over to the front and downwards. 

Cheers,


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## sonicninja

Ive purchased an additional section of spraybar so it can sit the entire length of the tank, I could place a powerhead directly underneath it centrally to keep things even.


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## sonicninja

So it's all fully up and going and the in line diffuser connected to the filter in-flow. One thing I have noticed is that there is no misting or fine bubbles on the filter outflow. Is this common for a diffuser like this? I imagine it's because the diffusion rate it good as the CO2 is passing through the filter before entering the tank....?


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## sonicninja

So things have got marginally worse with the repens in particular which is dying off quicker since the changes it seems. Since the last post Ive had major issues getting a green/lime green drop checker at lights on despite increasing the time the between when CO2 is on and lights on. I've upped the bps to what I would consider pretty mental. I've checked for leaks 4 times so somehow my CO2 diffusion is worse than with the old in tank atomizer (it seems).

Other changes are a spray bar that runs the length of the tank and the addition of a single powerhead mounted in the center of the tank just under the spray bar (pointing in the same direction).  I've also changed the in line diffuser to the filter outlet as when it was on the inflow I literally got a blue drop checker during the entire photo-period. 

Any ideas as to what im doing wrong, my flow seems better but now Im having issues with getting enough CO2 in there.....who though getting gas into an aquarium would be so hard!


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## Sacha

Oh no  maybe you should reduce the amount of surface agitation? 
Have you done a pH profile recently?


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## ceg4048

Yeah, I agree with Sacha. Surface agitation drives off the gas so there should be a limit on how much agitation. No air bubbles or anything else that breaks the surface. Check for gas leaks using washing up liquid, especially at, and downstream of, the bubble counter area and do the pH profile checks as mentioned. Can we see another image of this configuration? Has the lighting been reduced as well? Liquid carbon addition is a good interim step until you sort out the gas.

Cheers,


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## sonicninja

I'm still dosing liquid carbon daily. I've checked for leaked all away along the path of CO2 from bottle to diffuser but I'll check again. 
Frustratingly I've been working a lot recently so have been unable to do a proper pH profile recently. This is probably my downfall and I realise it will help but my boss might not let me take a day off to 'check tank pH levels' 
I'll have another look at the surface agitation when I get back tonight and adjust accordingly. I'll also send a picture. 
Thanks guys.


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## sonicninja

As you suggested Clive the spray bar is higher and sits about 2-3 cm under the surface which is about as high as it will go. 

The powerhead is facing dead forward.


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## ceg4048

Yes, but the output nozzle is far below the bar.. It's perhaps a minor point but try rotating it 180 degrees (or 90 degrees) so that the cable is below and the nozzle is above.

Cheers,


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## sonicninja

Ok, I'll turn it 90 degrees and move it as far up as possible. In terms of the surface ripple it's only really very slight and barely breaks. I'm not sure how to avoid it without either tilting the angle of the spray bar or lowering it.


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## ceg4048

OK, well if it's just a ripple then the problem does not lie there. Lighting is still in question but in your Opening Post you mention that you have two Hydors. I can't keep track of the sequence of events but it looks like there is only one pump. It's also possible that the flow out of the spraybars is too weak. Can we see an image showing what the jets look like? Just drop the water level by half so we can get a better view.

Cheers,


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## sonicninja

Lol, literally just done a water change. I'll drain it slightly now to show you.


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## sonicninja




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## ceg4048

Thanks for going through the trouble. It doesn't look too bad to me. It would be nice if the jets touched the front glass but the powhead should help. I think you ought to mount the other one as well though.

The only thing left is the injection rate. I reckon you just need to increase it until you get the necessary pH drop. AS always, dropping the light to under 20% will also help.

Cheers,


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## sonicninja

No problem, thanks for the on-going help. I'll mount the other one at the weekend and space them as you've suggested. I'll drop the lights down too.
I'm still very confused as to why, even with a bubble rate of 6ps and CO2 on 4 hrs before lights on I still can't get a green drop checker.
Hopefully despite my busy weekend away I can get back in time to do a pH profile


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## Sacha

That injection rate means there is almost definitely a leak somewhere. Have you checked the bubble counter itself for leaks?


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## sonicninja

I've checked everything with washing up liquid and water in a spray bottle. I'll try again tonight.


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## Sacha

I would be amazed if all that co2 was making it into the tank, and the drop checker was still blue. 
There's something very strange going on here!


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## Sacha

Do you not get any mist/ micro bubbles coming through the spray bar? The atomizer should  be making your water look like lemonade


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## sonicninja

Yeah I've got a fairly fine mist, it's not hugely noticeable. I'm checking for leaks now.


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## ceg4048

Yeah, check the cylinder valve at the neck too. Open the needle valve until you can't count bps anymore.

Cheers,


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## sonicninja

I'll check when I get back this weekend. Booked Monday off simply to do a pH profile. I'm going to change the fire extinguisher bottle too.


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## sonicninja

So I managed to do a pH profile albeit a manic one. I did this directly after a water change and annoyingly without a bubble counter since it as sacha suggested was the cause of the leaks. I didn't want to waste my 'pH profile day off' so just had to guess on the bps.  Here are the results-
Just to re-iterate CO2 is on at 1:00pm and Lights on at 5:00pm

1:00- 7.2
1:30- 7.0
2:00- 6.7
2:30- 6.5
3:00- 6.2
3:30- 6.2 *
4:00- 6.2

* unfortunately the fish started showing signs of stress at this point so i partially changed the water and got an aerator going under the power-head. The drop checker went yellow and my main concern was ensuring the fish were ok (which they are thank-fully). Anyway, since the bubble checker has been removed from the solenoid I've been using a bodge job using a glass one I've propped up. Its currently set at 3bps and the tank is showing a fine mist from top to bottom. Ive ordered a more substantial and higher quality bubble checker which I'll set up later this week. For now I'm just going to leave the set-up as it is and plan another pH profile at the weekend.

I'd also like to attempt a later CO2 on time if I can to avoid wasting CO2. Should I be aiming to get a full pH point drop between CO2 on and Lights on or go with the drop checker colour?


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## Sacha

You shouldn't need the Co2 to come on 4 hours before the lights. Your pH is dropping one whole point in 2 hours, so I would say have your Co2 come on 2.5 hours before the lights. Then it can go off maybe 3 hours before the lights do.


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## ceg4048

sonicninja said:


> I'd also like to attempt a later CO2 on time if I can to avoid wasting CO2. Should I be aiming to get a full pH point drop between CO2 on and Lights on or go with the drop checker colour?


the target pH drop depends on your KH. You have not yet supplied that information.

It shouldn't require 4 hours to drop the pH by one unit assuming a moderate to low KH.

Cheers,


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## sonicninja

I'll do a KH test tonight.


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## sonicninja

Just checked my tank water and the KH is 80mg/l
I used a Hagen liquid test


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## Sacha

I believe that equates to a dKH of 4.5.

Based on this chart:






Your Co2 concentration yesterday was 85.2 PPM.

So I think based on this, in combination with the readings in my other thread, and the fact that these charts suggest that Iain Sutherland is running his Co2 at levels in excess of 200 PPM, we can safely throw all our pH test kits and KH/ pH/ Co2 charts out of the top floor window of the tallest building we can find.


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## sonicninja

hahahaha, all that's happened is I'm super confused. Im going to put this to bed for the moment and just see how the plants develop. I can physically see a mist of CO2 throughout the aquarium evenly so I might just let it settle for a while and see how things go!


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## sonicninja

So it seems to be going well generally, the CO2 is stable now and that part of the set-up working well. As you suggested Clive I'm going to employ the use of an additional powerhead. The main area that seems problematic is the right hand side of the aquarium where im trying to grow stauro repens. The small bunch of stauro in the centre of the tank is responding well to the new spray bar arrangement and as its directly below the central powerhead gets a consistent supply of CO2. I think the flow in the tank is good but perhaps its the spread of this flow that is the issue, hopefully by placing two identical powerheads equidistant from each side of the tank will re-address this problem and help with flow to the dead area on the right hand side.
I am still having issues with some plants looking a bit off, for example holes in leaves but this might be down to my dosing regime which I'll increase until hopefully this goes away. I'll post a picture of the new powerhead arrangement when the equipment gets here.
Cheers!


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## ceg4048

sonicninja said:


> I am still having issues with some plants looking a bit off, for example holes in leaves but this might be down to my dosing regime which I'll increase until hopefully this goes away.


No. Holes in leaves is another CO2 issue. Sorry to rain on your parade 

Symmetry is always a problem and that's why I prefer to put all my eggs in a muscular filter that is man enough to power a long spraybar. That will even out the gas distribution across the length of the tank, however, as you suggest, spacing the powerheads will be the next best thing. Can you tweak the injection rate up some more?

Cheers,


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## sonicninja

ceg4048 said:


> Holes in leaves is another CO2 issue. Sorry to rain on your parade


You've rained on it and denied me an umbrella too! I have been looking around for a more powerpul filter but with my funds being low I'll have to hold off. 

I can up to injection rate which i'll do at the weekend when I can be around to check on the fish, generally plants die off in a standard way in my tank. The leaves look pale or transparent, fall off and the plant fails to root at all, eventually Im left with a stem. Some plants have stayed in 'stasis' for months neither completely dying or growing at all, again ive has plants in there for about 4 months (or more) which just dont grow roots. Hopefully the powerheads and increase in CO2 will prompt things to kick off.....or i'll cry.


----------



## ceg4048

Well, as the flow/distribution scheme improves the deterioration should be arrested. What you describe is a typical CO2 failure mode. When plants neither grow nor die they are producing just enough fuel to survive but not enough to grow. When they melt or deteriorate they are using more fuel than they can produce.

Cheers,


----------



## sonicninja

well fingers crossed for the powerhead and CO2 increase. I was saying to sacha the other day, I have absolutely no idea how Takashi Amano gets such good growth with a tiny glass diffuser sat on the opposite side to his filter output with next to no visible signs of flow. This has been far harder than I had ever imagined.


----------



## ceg4048

Because he uses low lighting. He is NOT a Klingon.

Cheers,


----------



## Sacha

I was under the impression that most of Amano's tanks were high lighting...

Otherwise, how does he get such vicious pearling?


----------



## tim

Sacha said:


> I was under the impression that most of Amano's tanks were high lighting...
> 
> Otherwise, how does he get such vicious pearling?


Plenty of threads on the forum about amanos lighting and I'd have to agree its low to medium, massive pearling really healthy plants or a massive water Change pre photo.


----------



## ceg4048

Sacha said:


> I was under the impression that most of Amano's tanks were high lighting...
> Otherwise, how does he get such vicious pearling?


As discussed previously, there are more factors that contribute to pearling than just light. CO2, temperature, nutrients all play a role.

Here is an extract from Tom Barr's visit to the 2008 Aqua Forest event:



> *ADA lighting at Aqua Forest and nice low PAr values-who knew? *
> I just got back today from Aqua Forest's gracious event and demo. I took my PAR meter and Ian brought his as well to the event. Every tank I measured, the one that ranked 20th in the ADA contest last year in the wolrd ranking had no more than 150 micromol at the surface of the tank right near the HQI MH light. At the bottom all along the front, 35-40micrmol and near the window at noon time(north face), 50-55 micro mol.
> 
> Gloss, HC, E tennellus, moss etc, no issues..............
> 
> This is very low light overall.
> 
> PAR meters do not care about brands, lux, lumens, funky nutty correlation tables, the water, reflections, distance etc, they can drop down and measure the parameter that makes the plant produce sugars via photosynthesis right at the surface of individual leaves.
> 
> Someone said "there is a redder plant, measure there", so I did: no difference.
> On to other tanks, exact same trends, all very low, 30-50micromol ranges at the bottoms, 150 or so at the highest, did not matter if if was a 180cm, 120cm, 90cm, 60cm, 45 cm sized tank, all where pretty much lower light tanks in each and every case.
> 
> I was a bit mythed about the ADA lights, they are really inefficient or set up that way to limit folk's from going wild with the lighting.
> 
> Many think more is better, so reducing it down helps folks do better and have better luck with CO2, so many think the ADA lights are better.
> 
> But not when tested...........
> 
> Almost 1/2 of what my lights are at home.
> Much less.
> 
> How might this influence what folks think and assume about CO2 and stability?
> How about nutrient demand and uptake?
> 
> If you cut the light by 1/2, what do you expect?
> 
> This was not some aberration, this was done in front of 50 plant hobbyists in the club here. I'm not pulling anyone's leg here with some baloney.
> 
> This was not merely 1 or 2 tank,s this was 7 tanks and other folks' I've gone to to measure had similar values and results.
> 
> I've heard about every crazed idea about measuring light that's out there, yet few have ever bothered to measure the one that matters the most _in situ_ and compare. I have a bit more lately and the cost is not much now either.
> 
> I have 2-3x as much light in some of my tanks, yet I also have no issues, but much faster growth rates.
> 
> I also scale up the nutrients, and the CO2.
> If you don't, then you have a lot of issues.
> 
> So keep light low, not high!
> BTW, the T5's rock and produce some of the best light and are very even. I like them, but.......I like HQI and ripples light real sun light too
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr





> Yes there are minimum light values and they will vary species to species.
> Obviously if you have non limiting CO2, nutrients, good KH/GH etc.....clean low organic waters.......you will be able to determine minimum thresholds, whereas other folks that have not provided non limiting condition(or assume that they have, when in fact, they have not- belief can get you into trouble here), will have to have higher light levels.
> 
> With this idea in mind, what condition do you think will allow less light and still have good growth:
> 
> Tank#1: 25 micromol + good rich CO2/nutrients/fishwaste and sediment nutrients
> Tank #2: 35 micromol + non CO2 and sediment nutrients(only) and fish waste
> 
> I think many assume that non CO2 methods have the lowest light of all aquariums, but this is simply not true. They are not light limited, they are CO2 limited. The light is mildly limiting in a few cases, but generally, it's CO2 that is the stronger limiting factor. Also, the strength of the limitation for nutrients is pretty low since both light and CO2 are limiting(non CO2).
> 
> So if you wanted to try really low light, then you'd want CO2.
> 
> This provides the best combination.
> It is not this malarky about Powersand, various little bottles of marketed snake oils, iron tabs etc, nor secret liquid ferts and ratios etc.
> 
> The ADA tanks are very low light, they can easily target CO2 and nutrients from any source, the ADA aqua soil is rich, folks dose the routine daily, they also do weekly 50% water changes, ........or more...............
> 
> Now some of those parameters start to make sense.
> But Amano will never tell this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At least it would surprise me if he did.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


----------



## sonicninja

Very interesting, either way id be chuffed if my tank looks half as good as any of the amano tanks (or Tom Barr!)

I've added another powerhead to my tank, the nozzles are 13cm from each side. Ignore the extra plant mass, I got some cheap hygrophilia so I could monitor flow throughout the tank.


----------



## ceg4048

Perform another pH profile check when you have the opportunity.

Cheers,


----------



## sonicninja

I will do one Sunday 

Also it did occur to me that as I'm running a filter with 16mm hose and I've stepped it down to 12mm to fit the intake and spray bar that this could be reducing the flow...?


----------



## Sacha

Nope. Any effect on flow will be negligible.


----------



## foxfish

I am surprised you say that Sacha, I would of thought reducing the filter pipe diameter would affect the flow quite a bit?
It would depend or the pumps power rateing and impeller design but certainly, some pumps can be dramatically effected by any flow restriction via pipe diameter or elbow bends.


----------



## ceg4048

sonicninja said:


> I will do one Sunday
> 
> Also it did occur to me that as I'm running a filter with 16mm hose and I've stepped it down to 12mm to fit the intake and spray bar that this could be reducing the flow...?


Stepping down the hose size from an internal diameter of 16mm to a hose with an internal diameter of 12mm reduces the flow rate by approximately 44%. However, this might not be the case if your filter outlet spud has an internal diameter of 12mm. The difference in cross sectional area between the filter outlet spud and any other smaller ID hose will determine the percentage loss in flow rate.

Cheers,


----------



## Sacha

I was under the impression that he only used a small amount of 12 mm hose on the intake and spray bar, and the rest of the hose, including the hose attached to the filter, was 16mm?


----------



## sonicninja

The 16mm hose runs for approx 12inches before the converters then runs 12mm hose all the way to the spray bar.


----------



## Sacha

Shows what I know!


----------



## sonicninja

2:30-7.5
3:00-7.4
3:30-7.2
4:00-7.0
4:30-6.8
5:00-6.7

Again, CO2 on at 2:30, Lights on at 5:00. Given this im going to up the CO2 slightly.


----------



## Sacha

Yeah, increase the Co2...


----------



## ceg4048

No kidding....you can do better I think.

Cheers,


----------



## sonicninja

So this is ridiculous.
Ive had the increased CO2 running for a while now and there are some positive signs but still some very negative ones. I planted some more stauro on the right hand side last week and initially it showed some slow but positive signs of growth, nothing massive but it didn't die which I view as a positive. The plants showed no leaf dropping which Ive had previously in my tank. I performed a water change Wednesday night and came home this evening (Friday) to find an awful lot of stauro leaves on the surface and the remaining plants were pale yellow. I have changed absolutely nothing concerning the CO2/dosing regime and suddenly they have died. 

This has got me wondering if this could possibly be an issue other than CO2. I'm performing regular maintenance/cleaning on pipe work and the filter (at least ever 2 weeks) to ensure the flow remains high, I can visibly see CO2 reaching all areas of the tank and my drop checker is at a steady lime green verging on yellow. My pH profile is at the bottom of this rant. I cannot see what I'm doing wrong and am worried that after concentrating on CO2 distribution (which I agree is main concern) I may have overlooked something blatantly obvious in my water chemistry.

I'm going to run tests tomorrow morning when I get a chance but is there anything glaringly obvious I should be looking at which could be making my plants die off so quickly? This is getting ridiculous, 6 months and no positives 

Test 8- 25/08/2014
2:00-7.6
2:30-7.0
3:00-6.7
3:30-6.7
4:00-6.6
4:30-6.5
5:00-6.3


----------



## pepedopolous

Wish I had the answer!

P


----------



## sonicninja

I wish I did, it's the saddest tank of them all


----------



## ceg4048

Did you get rid of the 12mm ID tubing?
CO2 diffusion method?

Cheers,


----------



## sonicninja

The 12mm tubing will be gone tomorrow when I collect my new 16mm spray bar and inlet. The diffusion method is currently an inline diffuser on the outflow but again the is due to be changed to the inlet tomorrow.


----------



## sonicninja

So I've just taken another profile with the new 16mm spray bar and intake installed. In order to maintain pressure coming out of the spray bar as well as keep the 2 powerheads as close to the spray bar as possible ive only run the spraybar for 3/4 of the tank length. Hopefully by doing this i haven't pushed the two powerheads too near the side walls like you have mentioned Clive. 

I took a profile today, like I said the in-line atomizer is now on the filter intake.

2:00-7.6
2:30-7.3
3:00-7.0
3:30-6.9
4:00-6.8
4:30-6.7
5:00-6.6

Any suggestions would be great, Im going to do my weekly water change in two stages this week and maybe try using all tap. Perhaps my RO unit has become dirty internally and is harboring something nasty, I cannot understand why im still struggling so much.


----------



## sonicninja




----------



## ceg4048

Try a little more injection rate increase and make sure there are no leaks.
Once you had gotten rid of all the 12mmID tubing and connections you should have seen a marked increase in flow unless you have the filter stuffed with media.

Cheers,


----------



## sonicninja

Id like to ask a very theoretical question. Say my CO2 rates, flow,lighting etc were absolutely perfect in this tank (which Im not expecting them to be). Could there be something concerning my water chemistry that could be affecting the plants ability to take in CO2. I'm only asking since I don't think I should be focusing all my attention on the CO2 without at least considering other options. Unfortunately my brain capacity for this isnt particularly high so any suggestions would be great. I'm determined to persevere but without seeing any results and with CO2 constantly on my brain im going to go man.

Anyone got any suggestions if for the sake of argument my CO2 method was perfect...?


----------



## ceg4048

Well, only a high concentration of herbicide or water very high in organic waste, or a too high concentration of liquid carbon would interfere with CO2 uptake. There really is nothing else. Barr has estimated that about 95% of all problems in the planted tank is CO2 related, so as far as I'm concerned, you should be focusing 95% of your attention on CO2 availability.

As I mentioned, if you can do very large water changes and if you can wipe the biofilm off the surface of the leaves, either while they are exposed to air or while submerged, you can go a long way in reducing the obstacles to CO2 uptake. CO2 has a 10,000X poorer ability to move through water than it does through air. That's why plants living in air seldom, if ever have a CO2 deficiency, and why plants that are flooded ALWAYS have a CO2 problem. Stick your hand in the tank and rub the leaves between your thumb & fingers. Is there a slimy coating? Keep rubbing until the slime wipes off. That is major barrier number one.

There are as many ways to have poor CO2 as there are hobbyists, and yes it does drive people crazy, but once you understand the extreme difficulty that CO2 has finding it's way into a leaf you'll concentrate harder on finding ways to help the plant.

Cheers,


----------



## sonicninja

No slimy coating on any of the plants leaves.


----------



## Sacha

That holiday to Switzerland is looking more and more desirable.


----------



## sonicninja

If I'm going you're coming with me!


----------



## sonicninja

Update-
So things have been moving slowly and not particularly well (shocker). I've now taken out the glasswear and put in 16/22mm eheim intake and spray bar. The spray bar runs the length of the aquarium (more or less) and the two powerheads are mounted below. I've noticed that the flow from the spraybar is pretty poor and certainly not as vigorous as the previous 12/66mm one. 

The in-line diffuser is now placed on the intake to the filter and cleaned regularly (I clean my filter at least every 2 weeks and the pipework when it starts to get visible dirty).

Doing a pH profile is difficult but I'm hoping to do one tomorrow when im finally at home during the photo-period stage. 

I've also decided to completely remove the right hand side section of wood. The plant im having the most issues with is still the stauro, it generally lives for a couple of weeks but never roots and eventually the leaves drop off. Hopefully removing this piece of wood will increase flow to that area. The Stauro in the dead center of the aquarium does slightly better than the plants on the right which is guess is due to there being no obstructions. 

I think my main issue with this tank is that i still struggle with 'easy' plants. I was hoping that even without CO2 plants such as hygrophilia would do well but their growth isnt exactly impressive. The Hydrocotyle tripartita is doing ok and showing some signs of improvement. 

I also increased the lights slightly, when i originally set up this tank i had good growth with the stauro and the intensity then was 27 percent so ive gone back to this in an attempt to replicate conditions. My feeling is that the flow is still too low, when I have the funds I'd like to upgrade to an Eheim 600T.

Just as a re-cap here are the current parameters, cheers for reading!

CO2 on between 14:00-23:00
Lights on between 17:00-00:00
Light Intensity @ 27%
Dosing EI


----------



## sonicninja




----------



## parotet

Hi

In also purchased the Eheim inflow and outflow sets some weeks ago. In my opinion they are excellent in terms of quality, but the spraybar has a very large diameter (larger tan the pipe diameter). That means that you need a short spraybar section (it looks like it's done to be placed on the sides... You don't probably want this option) or a filter with a lot of muscle to really keep or have a decent flow velocity.
What I did is to adapt my previous spraybar to the outflow piece/elbow issuing some tubing... And it works excellent.
Cleaning the filter every two weeks looks quite a lot to me... It would be much better to use a coarse sponge on the inlet to avoid plant bits in the filter. Let the microbes in your filter work at ease. IMO tank husbandry is very important (if you put the sponge clean it frequently... It takes some seconds) but I try my filter rest at least a month or more.
Can you see at least some plant growing? If you have healthy growing and no visible algae outbreak I would increase plant biomass and/or light very slowly. You want plants growing, and as much as possible, that's the challenge.

Jordi


----------



## sonicninja

Cheers for the reply. I did originally have it as a much shorter section mounted centrally but the plants on either end of the aquarium seemed to suffer. 

Cheers for the advice on the cleaning. Currently my maintenance is pretty meticulous both in tank (removing an dead plant leaves etc) and out. As you've said perhaps I could do a bit less on the external filter cleaning. Ive currently got the eheim coarse pre-filter sponge and a finer pad of foam which I clean during maintenance. I also have one tray full of the mech-pro and one empty tray. 

Generally the plant growth is pretty pitiful. Like I said in my previous post even some 'easy' plants seem to struggle in my tank such as ludwigia and hygrophilia. My drop checker is always a light green/yellow colour so i think it must be down to the effectiveness of how i supply the CO2. The taller plants at the rear of the tank mostly suffer from poor/dying growth towards the bottom which again i think can be equated to the poor flow from the spray bar not reaching low enough after deflecting off the front glass. 

I did pull on a couple of stems of the Stauro last night and was surprised to find that some had grown roots. Hopefully that will continue.

Im going to get some fish today to try and take my mind of the tragedy that is this tank. It currently only has 6 pygmy corys so some cardinals should be great in there.


----------



## sonicninja

I have the eheim 2176 (450) in mind with a rated output of 1650ltr, do you think that is sufficient with a 65ltr tank?


----------



## pepedopolous

1650 litres per hour for a 65 litre tank seems like overkill to me? Flow is super important and I have no way of knowing what would happen for sure, but I think such a filter might make your tank like a whirlpool!

P


----------



## sonicninja

I'm guessing the actual flow rate would be considerably lower than advertised. I think that model has an electronic flow controller too. My feeling is get something powerful and have the option to turn it down. I could lose the additional power heads too hopefully.


----------



## Andy Thurston

I'm using a 2217 1000lph on a 60l cube and it seems more than adequate
1600lph seems overkill to me but if you can reduce flow it gives you the option of upgrading to a much bigger tank later without having to buy a bigger filter


----------



## sonicninja

I was under the impression that most filters operated well below their stated output. I currently have an eheim 250T which is rated at 950ltr per hour and I doubt it does anywhere near that despite being very lightly loaded with media.


----------



## Andy Thurston

Even if it runs at half the quoted flow rate your still pretty close to 10x rule
With my experience with canister filters my eheims seem to perform just as well when crammed full of media as when they have hardly any. Which is more than i can say about any of the others. If you want to make a big difference to your flow make the hoses as short as possible.


----------



## sonicninja

Great suggestion. I've shortened the hose by as much as I can and raised the filter on a short filing cabinet by about a foot.


----------



## pepedopolous

Hmm. I've pulled out half the media and all the filter wool from my Eheim 350T. Surely that wasn't all for nothing (no flow increase)?

P


----------



## Andy Thurston

No! filter wool is bad for clogging up and reducing flow i just have coarse sponges in mine i haven't cleaned the filter since i set the tank up in january and the flow still looks as strong as day one. 
I cant comment on the 350t you would have to measure it and see if it makes a difference.
Shortening your hoses makes more difference than reducing media imo but if your below the 10x rule 'every little helps'


----------



## sonicninja

My last in a long line of attempts to get this tank sorted. I bought an eheim 3E 450 and got it set up, I removed the two pumps that were in the tank. Flow is very good and the 16/22mm spray bar running the length of the tank now hits the front face of the aquarium. Fingers crossed! 



I do have a question regarding flow. Does it matter where the flow comes from? i.e should the 10x turnover rule apply to flow produced by the filter only?


----------



## tim

Always more efficient to have the 10x flow from one source IMO less chance of conflicting flow patterns.


----------



## sonicninja

Thank you. This may seem like a ridiculous question but seeing as the co2 was previously coming from the spray bar with the additional flow made up with power heads should this makes difference? I'm presuming if the flow carrying co2 from the spray bar isn't sufficient to hit the front glass with force then the gas will simply rise quicker....?


----------



## tim

Yes gas will want to rise, if the power head position isn't optimum it could be out of the tank rather than being pushed back down.


----------



## sonicninja

So the saga continues. Ive been persevering with the tank still and very nearly shut it down before I went on holiday. When I came back I decided to do the one thing I haven't tried yet which was turn the lights up. I know that this hasn't been the focus of my attention (flow and CO2 have taken precedent) but I thought that I should at least try everything. I cranked them up from 26% to 40% and some plants seem to have taken off especially the 'easier' plants that are essentially weeds such as hygrophilia and hydrocotyle tripartita. 

The flow from the Eheim 450 is superb even with the 16/22 diameter hose and the spray bar running the length of the tank. Im almost certain flow is no longer an issue. Im still not convinced by the CO2 though. I cant seem to get the balance between getting a full point drop before lights on and gassing my fish. Ive tested for leaks numerous times with none found anywhere. The CO2 is still going into an inline diffuser (now set at the outlet of the filter since the Eheim didn't run well with it on inlet). 

My main issue is still the Stauro and getting it rooting. It lasts maybe a week or so before the leaves start to drop off or become riddled with holes. Im determined not to fail with this plant, the flow is reaching down to it as I can see it all moving. 

Anyone care to suggest what I can do to get this plant to flourish and what I can do to get a full pH point drop? My results here are from today, turning up the CO2 any more seems to result in very unhappy fish.

Test 11- 08/11/14
2.00-7.0
2:30-6.9
3:00-6.8
3:30-6.8
4:00-6.6
4:30-6.4
5:00-6.4


----------



## sonicninja




----------



## Andy D

Have you considered removing the rock in front of the Staurogyne? I just wonder if given the flow pattern the rock is deflecting the CO2 etc away from that area?

I'm sure you have mentioned this earlier but what is your kH?


----------



## 13r0wn7

.


----------



## Sacha

http://www.dignitas.ch/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=20&lang=en


----------



## sonicninja

Thanks for the replies and the suggestions (Sacha!).
I have already removed a section of wood to increase the flow, the rock on the far right is very low profile but the stauro behind this suffers just as much as the stauro behind the central rock. They are clearly being moved by the flow and I can physically see bubbles reaching these areas.

My KH is 90mg/l

Any suggestions on CO2/Lights On/Off times? I'd like to start again with this if anyone has any ideas based on their own success.....


----------



## sonicninja

Based on this am I right in saying that the KH (based on 90 x 0.056) = 5.04 dH?

In that case im in the ideal range pushing on slightly too much CO2...?


----------



## Sacha

I would crank the lights up  and hope for the best. You don't have algae in the tank. If you get algae, you can take a different approach. But for now, you have nothing to lose. 

Hoping Clive doesn't stumble upon this post.


----------



## pepedopolous

Who's afraid of the big bad Clive?


----------



## sonicninja

I think even Clive's bored of this thread. Think how I feel!


----------



## Andy Thurston

sonicninja said:


> Based on this am I right in saying that the KH (based on 90 x 0.056) = 5.04 dH?
> 
> In that case im in the ideal range pushing on slightly too much CO2...?


If thats based on a ph/kg/co2 table you probably don't have enough co2
These tables ALWAYS underestimate co2 levels. Use the value as a starting point and slowly increase injection rate
I'll try find the thread that explains better but basically its down to other things in the tank reducing ph and giving you a false reading.
I don't have a clue what my co2ppm is and don't really care, i just know its as much as my fauna allows. once you realise that getting an accurate value is impossible then things will start to make more sense. 
I lower my ph by 1.2 points and my drop checker is bright yellow at lights on all fish and shrimp are fine


sonicninja said:


> I think even Clive's bored of this thread. Think how I feel!


I don't think clive's bored of the thread but has given up because you choose not to believe that your technique is bad. 
There could be a small chance your light levels are too low but its unlikely, if you want to try more light just remember things go wrong faster when you have more light
My monies on poor flow and/distribution
When you do eventually get it right you will know exactly what was wrong 
Good luck


----------



## sonicninja

Thanks for the replies.

I don't think that's completely true Big Clown, Ive taken everyone's' opinion on board including Clives and made many changes to my tank so I think its unfair to say that I haven't listened to what he's had to say. I don't actually think he's ignoring the thread, it was an off the cuff remark (although I'm sure he's got better things to do then go back to old posts.

I completely changed my flow pattern including filter outlet, changed my method of injecting CO2 as well as dramatically increasing my flow by buying a new filter. I've not only listened to what he and others have said but Ive spent money to try and improve the tanks chances. 
I turned up the lights as a last ditch attempt since nothing else seemed to be working for me. Since I don't have a light meter I can only describe 'how much' light im giving the tank using the controllers percentage values but I suppose this wasn't particularly helpful as there is no real reference as to how much light this is. 

Since turning the lights up ive seen very positive changes in a lot of the plants (such as roots/runners growing and increased growth overall). Its just this last push to try and get the Stauro to perk up


----------



## pepedopolous

Personally, I think your tank is looking a lot better.  

_Staurogyne_ is hard to grow sometimes. Mine was suffering from GSA until I doubled the phosphates in my EI mix. Just when it was looking good again, I went on holiday for a week, leaving the lights and CO2 off and with no ferts. This fish were fed once or twice by a neighbour. When I came back the Stauro was in real poor condition, with pale white/yellow leaves, many of them dropping off. It took about a month to recover.

The same thing happened recently when my solenoid broke and it took a week to get a replacement. It is still recovering.

P


----------



## Andy Thurston

Are you still using the tiles and what power are they set at and to save me trawling through all the thread again how bigs the tank just to get a rough idea of light levels?


----------



## sonicninja

Yes the lighting is the same. 2 x TMC 400 LED Tiles suspended at 14cm above the surface. The tank is an ADA 60P (65Litre). Dimensions are 60x30x36cm. The lights have consistently been around the 26 percent mark. I understand that increasing the light will increase the plants requirement for CO2 and therefore if I increase light intensity too much my plants may starve (or words to that effect). Based on a lot of planted tanks I've seen in person my lighting at 26 percent was considerably dimmer. Like I said increasing the light certainly hasn't had a negative effect on my plants with most of them responding very well and showing signs I've not seen before. I wont be increasing them anymore for the time being. 
Cheers for your input, much appreciated.


----------



## Andy Thurston

Those tiles are 15watts each over a 65l tank.
I have a single colour plus tile (30watts)over my 60l cube 40x40x40cm, they are set at 75% on channel 1 and 25% on channel 2 and about 15cm from the surface. Any more and i start having problems. Based on that i would say you might be able to use a bit more light without problems.

My advice would be increase the light by 2-5% every fortnight and look for algae appearing aiming for about 30% on both tiles but if you have further problems reduce light and review your co2/flow/distribution.
Good luck


----------



## sonicninja

Thanks for the advice Big Clown, I'll take that on board and make some changes.


----------



## X3NiTH

To demonstrate the apparent brightness of a single mini 400 tile at 22% 14cm above a tank (tank height is 24cm) look at my shrimp tank on the shelf! (iPhone4 pic, shot in darkness with only the tanks lights on hence terrible quality)



The two channels on my 1500 tile above my 28L are set to 15% and 22% (which is why my 400 is set at 22% as it's on the same controller).

There is Zero algae in the planted shrimp tank and the light is low enough to kill off all the Flame, Christmas and Stringy moss that got planted on the wall, the Anubias are fine. There is algae in the main tank but it's only just hanging on in places and it's not bright enough at the moment to make it a problem, my Stauro grows but it's slow and steady with nice compact growth. I can't uproot my Stauro as it's locked solid into the substrate so I have to trim and replant the tops.

I think you can turn the lights up a bit.


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## sonicninja

Hi everyone.
Just wanted to post some positive progress. I completely re-scaped the tank (with the same layout idea in mine) and pulled out all the JBL Manado substrate. 

My main issue previously was Stauro Repens and I'm happy to say finally it has taken off! The substrate ive chosen is 'H.E.L.P Advanced Soil' and the cuttings are finally rooting, I think the extra nutrient content provided by this soil as apposed to the nutrient lacking JBL Manado seems to have solved part of the riddle. 

I also turned my lights up. They are now at 40% each and much lower at approx 2 inches from the surface. The CO2 is pretty much the only stable thing and has remained at 3bps through an inline diffuser. 

Anyway, finally something good!


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## Sacha

Finally, things are looking up for you. Look forward to seeing the tank when it's exploded with growth and is flourishing and healthy like you want it to be. 

"H.E.L.P Advanced Soil"- so damn appropriate.


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## sonicninja

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## Sacha

That Stauro looks very healthy to me. Should be taking off in no time.


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## Julian

Glad to hear you're finally having some luck. 

It appears that light was the main factor that remedied your issues, how much do you think was related to flow? I have a similar setup, my plants aren't dying but my glosso just wants to grow upwards instead of sideways, I believe which is down to the flow (lilly pipe instead of spray bar). Lights are at 45% which I've found to be the balance between algae/no algae.

That substrate looks amazing, definitely going to get some.


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## sonicninja

Hi Julian,
Are you using TMC Mini 400's also? Mine are set at 40% currently, above that was when i started experiencing algea. They are sat lower now also which seems to have helped a lot. My main issue with the whole lights debate is that my light output and how I decribe that to other forum members is totally subjective. I cant give a figure and so stating percentages isnt that helpful.....how dim is actually dim? As soon as i cranked my lights up I got good resuits and that was long after id already improved the flow pattern and CO2 injection method. It was the last piece of the puzzle.

I think orignall my flow was just simply too low. When i started the tank I had an Eheim 250T rated at 950L/H and now I have an Eheim 450 rated at 1650L/H. Obviously neither of them realistically output this but im able to pack the new filter with media and still get superb flow to all areas of the tank. Although I never ran this new filter on the old glass lily pipes I cant really comment on how good the flow would have been then but the current spray bar system seems very effective. Cegs general tips have certainly improved my tank no-end. 

Im still not 100% happy. Get a complete pH point drop is a struggle and getting the balance between good CO2 and not gassing myself is my issue. Ive checked for CO2 leaks several times with no success, 

Im really chuffed with the substrate, the Stauro roots much better in it then the sharper chipped rock substrate from JBL. Ive stuck some root tabs in also to make up for any shortfalls in my EI dosing method. They seem to benefit from it anyway, im using the TMC Plugs.


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## sonicninja

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## Julian

sonicninja said:


> Hi Julian,
> Are you using TMC Mini 400's also? Mine are set at 40% currently, above that was when i started experiencing algea. They are sat lower now also which seems to have helped a lot. My main issue with the whole lights debate is that my light output and how I decribe that to other forum members is totally subjective. I cant give a figure and so stating percentages isnt that helpful.....how dim is actually dim? As soon as i cranked my lights up I got good resuits and that was long after id already improved the flow pattern and CO2 injection method. It was the last piece of the puzzle.
> 
> I think orignall my flow was just simply too low. When i started the tank I had an Eheim 250T rated at 950L/H and now I have an Eheim 450 rated at 1650L/H. Obviously neither of them realistically output this but im able to pack the new filter with media and still get superb flow to all areas of the tank. Although I never ran this new filter on the old glass lily pipes I cant really comment on how good the flow would have been then but the current spray bar system seems very effective. Cegs general tips have certainly improved my tank no-end.
> 
> Im still not 100% happy. Get a complete pH point drop is a struggle and getting the balance between good CO2 and not gassing myself is my issue. Ive checked for CO2 leaks several times with no success,
> 
> Im really chuffed with the substrate, the Stauro roots much better in it then the sharper chipped rock substrate from JBL. Ive stuck some root tabs in also to make up for any shortfalls in my EI dosing method. They seem to benefit from it anyway, im using the TMC Plugs.



Yeah I've got 2 Mini 400's, set at 45%. I think this is possibly too much but I'm not growing any algae so I'll leave it be for now. 

I think my leggy glosso is simply my flow configuration, I dont think it's getting enough contact time with the CO2 bubbles. My lilly pipe is directing flow sideways rather than across the front as Ceg advises. I'm hoping that I can get away with this because my tank is 80 litres and my filter is a Fluval 306 (rated for 300L tanks I believe). I'm going to persist for now, I think trimming it will help it grow more horizontal, then I'm going to upgrade to a glass spray bar when I get the money. The leggy glosso is actually a good thing, it makes it very easy to replant and I have lots of 'bald' patches where I had some die-back.


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## sonicninja

A few new pics including some new stauro Porto Velho and dosing pumps. All growing in well and lights down to 38% each.


















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## sonicninja

A few new pics taken today. A not so nice additional light in the center and the two mini tile 400's turned down to 15% each.

Lots of new plants all of which are doing well. 











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## Sacha

Looking really really nice


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## Andy D

Looks great!

You gotta be pleased you have stuck with it now.


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## sonicninja

Yes very, it's really taken off now. Still not 100% what I did but turning the lights up seemed to help!


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## Julian

Lights were at 35% now 15%, what made you turn them down?


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## sonicninja

The addition of a third light as mentioned. 


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## Deansie

Why add a third light and not just turn up the two tiles?


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## sonicninja

I wanted to try out a spare fluorescent light I had lying around and also equal out the spread of light throughout the tank. 


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## Deansie

Cool, I'd be out of buying those tiles if they couldn't manage s spread in tank that size.


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## sonicninja

I'm sure they'd be capable but I added the central light as a test and I've seen big improvements ever since. 


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## Deansie

sonicninja said:


> I'm sure they'd be capable but I added the central light as a test and I've seen big improvements ever since.
> 
> And explain that Eh? Lol. Glad there had been improvement, I've had loads of melt, keeping the plant shops in business lol.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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