# Help needed on a big tank project, low tech



## tel (26 Apr 2010)

Hi All, 
I really need some help on a massive tank project. This tank is at work so a couple of things. 
a: no co2, will be running as the business won't pay for it
b: plants need to be such that they don't require a lot of maintenence with regards to trimmimg.
c: water changes I would like to keep to once a fortnight or longer.
d: dosing would be ei
e: lighting suggestion would be nice.
f: need a fairly detailed explanation of low tech setups

Now the tank has a central wier as it is viewed on all four sides and the size,
In CM
Length: 241
Depth: 90
Height:185

Volume is 887.79uk gallons.

I would appreciate the help from those here at UKAPs, If I can put something together then the company may go for it. I will more than likely be tipping in a fair bit of my own money into this also in order to get it through. I understand it is a big ask, but if I can explain how a low tech setup would work than it will mean a higher chance of this being allowed to happen. Unfortuantely I am battling time a little so I don't really have the time to do research which is why I am calling on the vast knowledge of all those here.

Well a bit of news, whilst typing the this I have been given a partial ok. 

cheers, much appreciated tel


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## ceg4048 (26 Apr 2010)

Hi tel,
        Ferns are the champion non-CO2 plants but there are others. Check this recent thread for ideas viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11089

The long and short of a non-CO2 planted tank is that you don't do water changes. Just fill up and replace the water that evaporates. CO2 grows plants, so since you don't enrich the tank, the growth rates will be 3X-5X slower than in your enriched tanks. Obviously, you have to keep the lighting intensity low. Don't know how you propose to light an Olympic sized swimming pool. Is this an outdoor pond, or are your numbers really in millimetres?

In any case the nutrient level is kept low, many times smaller than for an enriched tank. Normally you'd simply use an enriched substrate like Aquasoil, with hardly the need to dose the column, but your numbers are over the top.

Cheers,


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## tel (26 Apr 2010)

Lighting sorted, 8 x 21W t5 units which can be linked together for about $200au


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## tel (26 Apr 2010)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Don't know how you propose to light an Olympic sized swimming pool. Is this an outdoor pond, or are your numbers really in millimetres?



Sorry Clive I made an error with my decimal points, so I have ammended the dimensions to the correct ones.... 
I will have a look at the thread when I get home from work. Also try and get a phot of the current tank, albeit just an iphone shot.
cheers, tel


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## tel (26 Apr 2010)

A shot of the tank in question


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## tel (26 Apr 2010)

Ok, so how this came about. Several of the stores have tanks like these. All them house fish and fish alone, plastic plants and some wood maybe a few rocks. Fish tend to be natives, Australian estuary perch, eel tail cats, saratoga, barramundi, ie fish you can put on a plate.

The caretakers , so to speak, is a major aquarium( I won't say names just in case) they supply fish and also are our emergency help line. I had been in discussion and posed the question of changing over to planted/ tropical and it was somewhat balked at, budget and all.

Over the last month there has been some issues with the tank which have been difficult/ nigh on impossible to nail down, resulting major losses, last of which being this morning. Arrived at work to find two more deceased and the now sole occupant is an eel tail cat, which from discussion and photos may be the cause. That cause being it has a disease and is actually the host. Deceased are being tested.

I put forward the question again and as mentioned above have been given a partial green light. Which then prompted my first frenzied message to garner some help.

So the plan is to try and assemble as much as possible, lighting plants etc. Then strip the tank clean and sanitize and rescape.
Now I know some may be thinking , "learn to walk before you run" ie my own tank. But, this is important to me and I am prepared to take it on, which is why I am spending my own money for the most part. 

I have an idea, and it is this, let me know what you think.

My aim is to create a sunken tree with roots extending out. The "tree" will be  the form of a wood shell (think hollow log cut in half) encasing the central weir, root system of longer various shaped wood, with the substrate used to create definition of exposed and partially exposed root system.

As there is viewing on all four sides there is no front to back as such, my thinking of plants is clusters or groups which there is a small medium high combinations. As Clive mentioned ferns (java),also sword species, crypts, vallis and maybe some hygophila (nitrate soaker upppers).

Lighting will be the two banks of four either side of the central column. These are single units which have the ability to be linked together, and I can easily get some gal to create a reflector. The handy thing is that these units come with a mounting bracket, so it simplifies things.

The filter currently, not sure of the make, but could be a pond filter does from memory about a 2-3 times per hour turnover. I may be able to get them to spring for a second filter.

The current substrate is just a pebble mix which will need to be cleaned, I do have about 15- 20 kg of sand left from my tank which was never used so maybe a sand area at one end leading back to the pebbles. As these are both inert I would like to have something "ert" to go underneath to help with plants, so some suggestions would be mightily appreciated. ADA, Akadema and all the good stuff is out, a bit beyond me, and the company wouldn't go for it.

Again I welcome advice and suggestions from everyone, and with a bit of luck it will all go well. 
cheers, tel

Thanks Clive for your input, . . .  you know I will be asking more


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## ceg4048 (26 Apr 2010)

OK, that makes more sense. You were beginning to frighten me. The problem with stone pebbles is that the stones typically don't have a very good CEC. Really, I'd opt to have a sediment made of clay. It doesn't matter if it's inert. Clay has a high CEC, which means it has the ability to pull nutrients from the surrounding area and make it available to the plant roots. Wasn't there another Aussie on here who stated that you entire continent was red clay? Or did I dream that? C'mon, it can't be that tough to find cheap clay substrates down there. Check the ingredients on the various packages, or check shops that cater to Bonsai specialists.

Can you find osmocote down there? This is a slow release fertilizer and all you need is a little under the clay, with perhaps a little sprinkling of peat and BAM! instant Aquasoil clone.

Cheers,


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## tel (26 Apr 2010)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> OK, that makes more sense. You were beginning to frighten me.


Oops, it wasn't a good morning for me,  :?   




			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Check the ingredients on the various packages, or check shops that cater to Bonsai specialists.
> Can you find osmocote down there? This is a slow release fertilizer and all you need is a little under the clay, with perhaps a little sprinkling of peat and BAM! instant Aquasoil clone.



Thanks for for the break down Clive, osmocote and peat, should be readily available at one the major hardware outlets. I will hunt around for some Bonsai specialists and see what I can come up with for clay. I assume these are to be layered?
Then I can just top with the pebble mix for show

cheers tel


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## Brenmuk (26 Apr 2010)

It is well worth researching the planting medium in a low tech tank as this is probably the most important consideration in this type of set up and on a tank that big you don't want to have to restart multiple times.

Alot of people use potting compost as a planting medium in low tech tanks and would work out alot cheaper on a large tank than a specialist aquarium planting medium. 

You should also consider adding some kind of lime to the planting medium if it isn't buffered to ph 6.5 - 7.5 and you have soft acidic tap water. 

You might want to look at this thread for some further info http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=282

This would make a good journal - are you going to start one?


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## tel (26 Apr 2010)

Thanks for your thoughts Brenmuk



			
				Brenmuk said:
			
		

> It is well worth researching the planting medium in a low tech tank as this is probably the most important consideration in this type of set up and on a tank that big you don't want to have to restart multiple times.


I agree, with this it is going to have to be a one shot deal, it has to be right the first time otherwise it will revert back to large fish and plastic plants.



			
				Brenmuk said:
			
		

> Alot of people use potting compost as a planting medium in low tech tanks and would work out alot cheaper on a large tank than a specialist aquarium planting medium.
> 
> You should also consider adding some kind of lime to the planting medium if it isn't buffered to ph 6.5 - 7.5 and you have soft acidic tap water.


That's the reason why I struggle with substrates, as there are so many people using various products from compost , cat litter, peat etc. For me this starts becoming confusing. I have found a place nearby that sells Akadema, just arrived apparently, so I need to go and price it. If it works out cost effective I'll get it.



			
				Brenmuk said:
			
		

> This would make a good journal - are you going to start one?


Probably not, low tech does not attract much interest as the growth rates are slow, so nothing to update for lengthy periods. The preperation and putting together the scape lighting etc may be interesting for a few, but again this will be a slowish affair. Just because I am tipping in my own coin doesn't mean I am loaded, eg if I got the lights this week, that would be it for a fortnight and a few nights of vegemite on toast would follow 
cheers tel


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## ceg4048 (27 Apr 2010)

Hi tel/Ben,
        Really there is no need for lime, which only serves to add GH to the substrate. That might be good for some lawn soils, but for our purposes, one could argue the benefit. The peat is organic matter for the sediment bacteria, and the osmocote adds a supply of nutrients with which the clay can absorb and return to the roots. That covers all the basics. Keep it simple. There is no need to get any more complicated than that because the benefit of additional complication does not reward you with substantially better plant health. The rest is taken care of by dosing the water column once or twice a month with the dry salts.

Barr's non-CO2 method calls for the addition of weekly 1/4 tsp of SeaChem EQ + 1/8 tsp of KNO3 + 1/32 tsp of KH2PO4 per 20 US Gal. If this is a roughly a 1000 USG tank then simply multiply these basic numbers by 50. So this means a weekly dosing of;
12 teaspoons Seachem Eq
6 teaspoons KNO3
2 teaspoons KH2PO4

Adding the equilibrium eliminates the need for lime and also acts as a pseudo trace mix because it's got Iron, Magnesium and Manganese. Your tap water provides the rest.

To save money it might be better to start this bi-weekly and see if there are any deficiencies. Due to inefficiencies in flow, you may find that this large tank may require some upwards adjustment, but the tank will speak to you. These are just the baseline numbers.

Cheers,


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## Brenmuk (27 Apr 2010)

Here's a link to a largish low tech tank you might find interesting (125 US gallons - large by my standards).

http://www.dataguru.org/misc/aquarium/125tank.html

The soil in this tank is top soil and has provided good growth but I have seen other tanks using various soils & compost that end up looking like some evil swamp so If I were you I would try out any garden soil/ potting compost/ home made mix etc in a small tank or even a large jar before with a few plants to see how it gets on.


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## tel (27 Apr 2010)

Cheers Brenmuk, 
I did have a read and I don't think soil is the way to go, reason being, as the author in the link stated, problems with hydrogen sulfide, also the link to the Walstad method recommends letting the soil sit for several weeks. As this tank is in a retail store I won't be allowed the time for a substrate to leach toxins. 

As Clive outlined above "keep it simple", given the the time frame I will have to work in this seems to be the sensible option. From the minute the current tank is drained I will have less than a week to get the entire system up again. All of which needs to be done outside of business hours.
cheers tel


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## tel (28 Apr 2010)

Hi All, 
Jumping a couple of steps ahead, given the nature of this project , low tech, few water changes, would that rule out keeping fish such as Discus.
I have never had discus, but I have read and been told that water quality is the paramount to keeping them successfully.
cheers, tel


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## ceg4048 (29 Apr 2010)

Yes mate, there is no limitation on what kind of fish you can keep with this method. Plants help to detoxify the tank which discus love. Put them in much later though, after you have things figured out. Get the system up and running and you'll be fine.

Cheers,


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## tel (29 Apr 2010)

Thanks Clive, 
They were very much an afterthought but that is good to know.
I priced the akadama today, if I buy three bags it is $35 au a bag, so will think six bags should be enough, just need to confirm the price, and then how long for them to get it in. Other options are eco complete live 9kg $49 au + $7.50 pp(flat rate doesn't matter about the volume).
I can also get aquasoil for the same price as the eco-complete but they sting you on the postage $50au for three 9litre bags.
cheers, tel


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## ceg4048 (29 Apr 2010)

Err..mate I think you'll need more than six bags - unless those are really big bags. The tank is 241 cm long by 90 cm wide right? Well, for about 2 inches of substrate, call that 5 cm, the volume of substrate will be 241 X 91 X 5 = 108,450 CC which is 108 litres. So those bags better be at least 18 litres apiece.

Each additional inch of substrate will require 241 X 90 X 2.54 = 55 litres more.

Cheers,


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## tel (29 Apr 2010)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Err..mate I think you'll need more than six bags - unless those are really big bags. The tank is 241 cm long by 90 cm wide right? Well, for about 2 inches of substrate, call that 5 cm, the volume of substrate will be 241 X 91 X 5 = 108,450 CC which is 108 litres. So those bags better be at least 18 litres apiece.
> 
> Each additional inch of substrate will require 241 X 90 X 2.54 = 55 litres more.
> 
> Cheers,


,  
Well then, first on the list then is a bulk purchase of two minute noodles, looks like I am going to be very poor for a while


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## Brenmuk (29 Apr 2010)

Using the calculator here I think this works out at 19x9kg bags of eco complete !  

http://www.plantedtank.net/substratecalculator.html


Using your prices above that is $931 au +$7.5 pp.

 I'd look for sponsorship! And why not? If you end up with a spectacular looking tank then the shop will benefit.


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## tel (30 Apr 2010)

Brenmuk said:
			
		

> Using the calculator here I think this works out at 19x9kg bags of eco complete !
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/substratecalculator.html
> 
> ...


Oh just a lazy grand, I'll just whip that out from the shoebox under the bed     



Well the akadama has fallen through as the place isn't carrying it anymore. 
So options,  Kanuma I haven't read a great deal of but will do so later. 
Vermiculite, but the CEC may not be as good as once thought.
Diatomite, which doesn't seem to bad an option, maybe.

At the end of the day could I not just go with peat and ozmocote as the top is still going to be a gravel cap?


tel


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## ceg4048 (30 Apr 2010)

Vermiculite is a type of clay. If it's clay, then it has a good enough CEC to be useful. Not all CEC is created equally though and I think that may be why Vermiculite is not as popular as it once was. But so what? All that means is that someone was more of a dreamer and then woke up and got real. It depends on the cations that are attracted to the surface. In Vermiculite's case it tends to attract Calcium more so than Potassium as opposed to something like Muscovite, which has a higher selectivity for K+. According to AquaBotanic, Vermiculite is OK at attracting PO4 but not NO3 directly. It can pull NH4 but does not make it easily available to plants, so this then requires bacterial activity to convert the NH4 to NO3. No big deal. You may need to top this with basic gravel as well to keep it from sending particles everywhere, especially if you have digging fish. It does float as well so requires soaking for a week or more.

I thought the Diatomite is that material they use in Diatom filters. It is very fine, almost like talcum powder so that might not be the best. How ironic that this is just the dried silica shells of the very same diatomic algae that everyone moans about...

From what I gather, Kanuma is basically pumice. They just dig it out of the ground in that region of Japan. I'm personally not overly impressed with the CEC of pumice (this is what ADA Powersand is). It might be great for Bonzai but I reckon you can do better.  The nutrient retention in pumice has more to do with it's porosity, not much with chemical attraction of nutrient ions although it does have some CEC.

Cheers,


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## dw1305 (30 Apr 2010)

Hi all,
I think Clive s' post pretty well covers it , I've just read that  diatomaceous earth does have quite a large CEC _c._ 50 meq/100g, (from this useful pdf.  http://files.clino.webnode.com/200000022-0bdf60cd97/What is CEC.pdf).

If you use peat I wouldn't use a large amount, and over time the CEC of the substrate will decline as the peat is oxidised, other than that it works.  

The advantage of a clay mineral is that it will last indefinitely. Can you get calcined clay (or "Fullers Earth") based cat litter? Another possibility would be bentonite based "drilling mud" (they also use it for sealing land-fills etc.).

cheers Darrel


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## tel (30 Apr 2010)

Thanks, Clive, Darrel,
Locally, inexpensive (being the key word) options are starting to run a little thin, due to the quantities needed mail order is not going to happen as the rates make it too expensive.

I did have a look at bentonite, I think it is used in cat litter. Again, though there are different types of bentonite, calcium, potassium, sodium. I think predominately the cat litter is Calcium Bentonite.
Fullers earth is not available here Darrel, from what I have been research so far.

The Vermiculite seemed a good option as it was local. I am still looking into bonsai retailers for options and also gardening centers to see what I can come up with. I did find out that a lot of wineries use laterite, I just need to find out where they are getting it from  

cheers tel


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## tel (30 Apr 2010)

Just in case you may be wondering why my posting seems a little nonsensical / or incomplete, most times is that it is being done at about half six - seven in the morning before I rush out the door for work.   

Back to the vermiculite, Clive I kind of get what you wrote with the regards to the cation attraction. I do get a little lost with the converting NH4 to NO3. Even though it does not readily attract NO3 directly, I would have thought plants would draw this from water column directly ( if you take my meaning). What I am wondering though is becasue it does not attract directly, and requires the biological conversion, does that mean greater levels of toxicity for fish using Vermiculite.

Also, again things that run through my head, as these substrates absorb nutrients from the water column, would it not mean that the PPM levels would fluctuate until the substrate is full (for want of a better term). The thinking then being that you would have high levels of nutrients going until thre substrate is fully absorbed, then scale back


cheers tel


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## ceg4048 (1 May 2010)

Hi tel,
      Don't worry too much about the NH4 to NO3 issue. First of all because, you are right about the water column uptake. Since all this happens in the sediment the toxicity isn't an issue unless you constantly uproot and dig into the sediment, which you shouldn't be doing very often anyway. Sometimes, a lot of gunk and detritus builds up after time and you want to get rid of it. Since you 're not changing the water in a low tech, just wait every six months or so and do a water change while vacuuming out the gunk. Thirdly, you cannot help but build up bacteria in the sediment particles so that after some weeks the bacteria on the surface of the vermiculite will convert NH4 anyway, so this is absolutely nothing to worry about.

You would really have to do very careful tests to actually see much of a difference in some of this stuff we're talking about. As you've figured out, it's only if the tank were on the edge of starvation that these issues would be worrisome, and of course you're not going to let that happen because you will dose the water column occasionally. The biggest issue is all about the ergonomics of the sediment; does it cloud the water, does it require soaking to make it sink, is it messy, do I need to top it, does it look pretty, is it expensive and so forth. 8) 

Cheers,


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## dw1305 (1 May 2010)

Hi all,
Laterite doesn't have much CEC, but I can't remember the actual value, and calcium bentonite would be better than sodium (I think it is the sodium form that expands, but I'd need to check). I'm bit short of time but I'll have a look later.
cheers Darrel


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