# 30" Deep Tank Lighting Advice needed



## Katfish (12 Apr 2013)

I am trying to get more light to the bottom of my tank.
My tank is 72"x24"x30" and at present I am running 4 x 54w T5's with reflectors.

The lights are 4-5" above the water level which means from light to top of substrate is about 32"

What are my options for getting more light to the bottom of my tank?


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## NanoJames (12 Apr 2013)

Do you have floating plants? If you do you could remove them. I'm thinking simple here!


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## foxfish (12 Apr 2013)

Why do you want more light, is there a problem?


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## Katfish (12 Apr 2013)

No floating plants

Yes my plants loses there bottom leaves and turn into palm trees.


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## Alastair (12 Apr 2013)

Hi is it co2 injected as it sounds like a co2 and flow/distribution problem


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## Katfish (12 Apr 2013)

Hi yes Co2 injection though a reactor   with twin full length spray bars  one on back one on front
Filters is 1 x sump with a OR 6500 return pump  1 x Ehime Bucket filter modded to take a 3400ltr pump


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## ceg4048 (12 Apr 2013)

Plants losing leaves and turning into palm trees is caused by poor CO2. Adding more light without fixing root cause will generally cause more loss of leaves, and worse things as well.

Cheers,


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## Katfish (12 Apr 2013)

Co2 level is always in the bright green and the co2 is on.


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## ceg4048 (12 Apr 2013)

Which means absolutely nothing to the plant leaves because they are seeing probably less than 10% of all that CO2 you are injecting. What this means is that your flow and distribution is poor, which prevents the CO2 from reaching the target, or that you have too much light, which drives the demand for CO2 more than what you are supplying.

Cheers,


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## Katfish (12 Apr 2013)

What do I need to do?	As I have 2 full length spray bars 1 pointing down to the middle of the tank and the other pointing straight down the front of the glass one of them is pumping out around 5000lrt an hour and the other around 2500lrt per hour.

Do i need to increase my co2 ?
more flow ?


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## ceg4048 (12 Apr 2013)

Well, here is the thing; The deterioration tells you that CO2 is marginal to poor. How you fix it depends on the sensitivity of the fish,economic factors as well as ergonomic and aesthetic factors. Everything stars with the light intensity. Instead of assuming, as you did earlier, that you needed to add more light, consider that it is the amount of light that is too high causing the problem. The first action you should take therefore is to REDUCE the amount of light. If you can accomplish this by disabling som bulbs then it will make your life a lot easier.

As I continually try to point out, Co2 is what grows plants. Have you ever sat under a gigantic English Oak and marvelled at it's incredible bulk and girth? Well all that bulk is mostly carbon. Light is an engine, the oven. Carbon is the dough that makes the bread.

If you are not able to disable bulbs or to raise the height of the fixtures, remove reflectors for the time being. Reduce the photoperiod. Reducing the light reduces the demand for carbon.

The next step is to change the flow configuration. It's clearly not working. I'm not sure why you have the holes pointed down. The preferred scheme for spraybars mounted on the aft wall is to have all holes and pumps pointed horizontally towards the front glss NOT pointed down.

Are you complying with the 10X rule?

Next is to think about supplementing using liquid carbon if affordable.

Last but not least is to consider an injection rate increase. This is the most dangerous, so make thes adjustments when you have time observe the fish for distress. You may need to drive the DC into the yellow. Is the timing of your gas correct? Is the bright green there before the light comes on? If not, you may need to turn the gas on earlier.

Do more water changes, an make sure they are massive. 90% is not out of the question, and make sure you do this at lights on, and that the plant leaves are exposed to air. That helps with CO2.

Clean the leaves during a water change. Rub them between your thumb and forefinger toclean away the slime and detritus. Every leaf...

Cheers,


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## Katfish (13 Apr 2013)

Right where do I start
The lights are 4x54w which are paired so yes I can turn off 2 the lights are on for 8 hours per day from 12-8pm   which would be the best way to do this   just turn 2 lights off all the time or have 2 come on for 2 hours then the other 2 for 4 hours then back to just 2 for last 2 hours?
Co2 is on all the time this is done via a ph controller and the indicator is bright green all the time. 

As for the 10x rule my tank holds 850ltr-900ltr and the return pump from the sump is a or6500 but I would say it runs at 5500ltr/ph due to the head my other filter is a eheim 1250 but I have modded this and changed the pump to a 3400ltr/ph all this filter has in it in alfagrog as did not want to restrict flow as this runs the co2 reactor and I have enough foam etc in the sump I know this filter is pushing out 3000lrt/ph at the tank  as I have measured it.

I do EI dose as per the calculator on The Nutrient Company's website which this is what I dose which again might be wrong?
Sun	   
		  2 tsb---Potassium Nitrate (KNO3)		 
		  3/4 tsb---Monopotassium Phosphate (KH2PO4)	  
		  6 tsp---Magnesium Sulphate (MgSO4)		 

Mon			   3/4 tsp---TNC Trace		 

Tues			  2 tsb---Potassium Nitrate (KNO3)		 
		  3/4 tsb---Monopotassium Phosphate (KH2PO4)		 
		  6 tsb---Magnesium Sulphate (MgSO4)	  

Wed			   3/4 tsp---TNC Trace		 

Thur			  2 tsb---Potassium Nitrate (KNO3)		 
		  3/4 tsb---Monopotassium Phosphate (KH2PO4)		 
		  6 tsb---Magnesium Sulphate (MgSO4)		 

Fri			   Rest	  

Sat			   Rest	  

As for water changes 100ltrs-120ltrs gets changed everyday this is automatic  I do not have to do anything at all  which gives me a around 800ltrs per week change over.

I have 2 spray bars one running along the back glass  and one running along the front glass   How should I position them ?


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## wolfewill (13 Apr 2013)

What about using an atomizer for the CO2, and locate the business end as close to the substrate as possible, and in such a location that the water flow is going down over it. I do this and if the bubbles are small enough they will flow out from the side of the tank on the current and dissolve before reaching the surface. And I suggest this in addition to the method you are presently using. I've been getting a yellowish green in my drop checker with no apparent ill effects to my livestock.


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## foxfish (13 Apr 2013)

It has been sujested many times on this forum that PH controllers don't work very successfully with plated tanks.
sumps & overflows to sumps will gas off C02 at a disturbing rate!!
The more warter you flow over the wier the more gas you will waste!
PH controllers don't offer a very constant supply as they use the dropping Ph to operate the supply & you end up with fluctuations when there is no Co2 being supplied.


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## ceg4048 (13 Apr 2013)

I agree 100% with foxfish. You need to disable the controlling function of your device and use a steady state injection rate, or, you need to set a low enough target pH so that the gas is continually on for the duration of the photoperiod. That might be all you need to do, but even so, that is a tall order. The injection rate needs to be high for that size tank.

When the controller is running, the CO2 is not really on all the time. As foxfish mentions the gas will be shut off because a controller only measures pH. It is not capable of measuring CO2. The dropchecker has a two to three hour time lag so reall you have no idea of the CO2 content of the water with this configuration.

The two bulbs should be turned off and left off. It doesn't matter which two.

There is nothing wrong with the dosing scheme. This problem has nothing to do with nutrients.

Fix your injection rate first. The wait a few weeks to see the effects. I assume the gas is injected into the sump. The sump should be sealed off from atmosphere with a cover, otherwise CO2 is lost from the sump at an alarming rate.
Cheers,


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## Katfish (13 Apr 2013)

The co2 is on the filter and not the sump  this is how is runs

25mm pipe from tank to bucket filter then outlet from bucket filter to co2 reactor then from reactor to tank via a full length spray bar.


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## foxfish (13 Apr 2013)

The point I was making about the sump burring up gas still applies though!
The most efficient tanks will hold the gas in suspension for as long as possible but if you are pouring water over the overflow down to the sump then you are effectively removing the co2 from that water.
I use a sump myself, & a trickle tower, the system works very well, its just that I use lots of gas & in a tank your size you will need a lot to satisfy the plants needs.


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## Katfish (13 Apr 2013)

Ok I see what you mean now

My tank has become such a headache over the last few months that I have thought about giving it up and just changing it to a cichlid tank as I still can not get clear water I have so many suspended particles that it makes the water look cloudy I have tried everything I know of.  90% water change   I vacuum the whole tank every week  change the filter floss every week and still suspended particles I am pulling my hair out over it now and it is no more enjoyable more like a chore.


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## foxfish (13 Apr 2013)

O dear thats not good!
You need to take heed of our advice, forget the controller, cut down the lights & reduce the time they are on for.
I would add some liquid carbon too.
I use 2 kg of gas every 8-10 weeks on my 200lt tank so expect to use quite a lot on you tank!
I am not sure what you have in your tank but you could try some fast easy plants like Amazon swords to give you some conferdance back.


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## Katfish (13 Apr 2013)

I have today I have only 2 tubes running and on my tank it looks so dim now and the co2 I have turned up on the controller for now as the pipe is cut so I have ordered up some more co2 pipe and then I will remove the controller and have the co2 on a timer  for 2 hours b 4 lights on.


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## foxfish (14 Apr 2013)

I dont know why your tank has so much suspended matter, i dont understand why your filter is not picking it up?


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## Katfish (14 Apr 2013)

Nor do I 

I have tried everything  from a full floss filter to 3 different micron filter socks on the sump	90% water change	vacuum 2 x per week which is not easy on the tank

I am at a loss now on what to try next


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## ceg4048 (15 Apr 2013)

Hi,
	You need to stop worrying about cloudy water. This might continue for months. Those leaves that are disintegrating? The same reason they are disintegrating is causing the cloudiness. Fix your falling leaves and the tank will come around. One thing at a time.

Cheers,


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## Katfish (15 Apr 2013)

Thanks
This is how the tank looks


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## Katfish (16 Apr 2013)

I forgot to ask if I did get some liquid carbon at what do I dose at as I am using injection too so would I go with 1ml per 50ltr per day every day as per the instructions or would it be 1ml every 100ltrs every day or like 1ml per 50ltrs every 3 days ? I ask as with the tank my size I would go though a 500ml bottle in no time at all using the 1ml per 50ltr per day.


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## ceg4048 (16 Apr 2013)

Hi,
	Thanks for the images. You know, many people would kill to have a tank looking as nice as that. 

I'm not able to see exactly which plants have leaves that are falling off from that angle of view, but in any case, there does not seem to be any of the Excel-finicky species, so you can dose per bottle instruction on a daily basis. Dose it in the morning. Wait a couple of weeks to make sure there are no toxic issues to fish or plants then increase the dosage by say, 50% and see how that goes.

The tank is a very large volume and there is a large biomass producing organic waste. A combination of liquid carbon, perhaps a slight injection rate increase, plus continued water changes, while keeping the lighting subdued for the moment will improve the health and clarity. You can also try Purigen to see if that helps. You'd need a lot though for that size.

The only other thing that might be  causing the cloudiness is if the chelation in your trace element mix is failing due to water hardness. Do you notice whether the cloudiness increases after dosing?

Cheers,


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## Katfish (16 Apr 2013)

I have looked into purigen and I worked it out I would need 2ltr of the stuff something for the shopping list at the end of the month.

The cloudiness is there all the time no difference at all when I dose

I do have 2kg of crushed coral in my tank though as I had a low KH could this be the cause or related ?


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## ceg4048 (16 Apr 2013)

Hi Craig,
			Well, I'm not really sure about whether it can be blamed for the cloudiness. I've read where some people who were using it experienced cloudiness, but it is unclear whether the two events were coincidental. Conclusions are often irrational and since I've never used it I can't really say.

One thing's for sure, you don't really need it so if it's in a bag, and is easy to handle, then definitely take it out to see if that helps. If it's under the gravel though then forget about it and just worry about one problem at a time. I would much rather you concentrate on getting your plants to regain their leaves. That objective is 1000X more important that cloudiness, and probably, by the time you sort that problem out, I'll bet the cloudiness will have cleared a little. You cannot rush a tank that size.

Cheers,


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## Katfish (16 Apr 2013)

The coral is in bags in the sump so very easy to remove.

Today I did some heavy pruning and got rid of every leaf that was not 100% the only ones I left was the anubis as that has a little algae/diatoms on the edges of the leaves is there any way to get rid of this with out cutting away the leaves?

Tomorrow I am going to give the sump a clean take everything out and wash it in tank water  and add a new filter sock I got which is a felt sock and is 25 micron I brought 3 of them as I know they will clog quick and I expect to change them every 1-2 days.


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## ceg4048 (16 Apr 2013)

DIatoms can just be scraped off but they usually return unless the root cause is fixed, which is generally too much light. Definitely clean/scrub them because that helps the leaf to breathe and feed more easily. If it cannot be scraped off then that means it's probably a kind of GSA.

Cleaning is always a good idea. Always....Use whatever micron size you want and change as often as you please. I will only be satisfied when you report new leaf growth as a direct result of CO2 injection increase, Excel addition, extra cleaning, water changes and lowered light intensity.

Cheers,


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