# Mountain Range



## Carpman (3 Nov 2018)

My original plan for my re-scape was Iwagumi. I struggled with this idea and could not find a balance with my stock of Dragon stone (and probably lack of experience) I have spent numerous hours and days looking for inspiration and possible layouts online to no avail, I have come to the conclusion that Trigon's and a Dragon stone style Iwagumi don't mix, maybe my next scape with some Seiryu stone. I did however during my trawling see lots of mountain scapes with dragon stone but again not in a trigon. 
I have now decided to try a mountain type scape instead, after spending 4 hrs in my back garden at stupid o'clock starting at 10 pm in the cold last night I came up with this. I am not totally happy, the left and centre are ok the right side and centre rear is bothering me but I need something at the rear to cover pre-filter, I may have to reduce it to 1 canister and with help of the plants hopefully it wont be to hard to hide


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## TBRO (3 Nov 2018)

I like it, pretty challenging shape to scape but it has a good feel of depth and feels like it is close to the “golden Ratio”. 

How are you planting, carpet style? 

Can you hide the cut end of the central stone? It stands out quite a bit. 

T



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Carpman (3 Nov 2018)

TBRO said:


> How are you planting, carpet style?
> 
> Can you hide the cut end of the centre stone? It stands out quite a bit.



The plan is frontal area to about halfway (point of back rock in the center) Eleocharis acicularis that will then possibly change to Mc or baby tears. Plateau's will have either Mc or baby tears and Pogostemon helferi. I will be mixing in Alternathera reineki mini, stauroggyne repens and I have loads of anubias nana gold of old tank. Background will be Hottonia Palustris, Limnophila hippurioides and vallis asiatica.

LOL yes I have a little stone in mind that will sit on top, I dont like it either.


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## Keith GH (3 Nov 2018)

Carpman






Carpman said:


> I need something at the rear to cover pre-filter, I may have to reduce it to 1 canister and with help of the plants hopefully it wont be to hard to hide



Going back to your old posting I would say this has the best possibilities of hiding your filter.   It would be extremely easy with a Canister filter as all you have to hide is the inlet piece.

As far as the other rocks my only concern is the LH side and corner .




I think this might be the best one to work with.  Please remember this is only the first move of several to get your mountain range perfect.

I would swap 1 & 2 around, as its now a Mountain Range you can have the rocks touching each other.

Here is something totally different that just might work in your corner tank.




Keith


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## Carpman (3 Nov 2018)

Thanks @Keith GH the rock (3) in the above was never placed it was left there by mistake. If I leave large rock at the rear of the tank I will never be able to get any kind of depth which is why I have had the turn round for feeling. If it comes to it I will remove pre-filters and return to standard or even a lily pipe.


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## Keith GH (3 Nov 2018)

Carpman

You only have a small tank, why are you using a prefilter?

If you must have an extra filter think about a UGF I always had them in my tanks very easy to hide and work perfectly with other filters.

Keith


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## Carpman (4 Nov 2018)

Nearly all tank electrics are ready now just waiting on the auto dosing system to arrive then it's done. The previous setup was untidy, I have renewed it all, fitted the new lighting system, and drilled multiple new shelf locations in left side ready for dosing sys.


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## Keith GH (4 Nov 2018)

Carpman

WOW that is one good looking setup you have there.   That solves one concern with a big filter there is certainly no need to have a prefilter.

The inlet can be hidden behind that big corner rock very easily.  

Keith


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## Carpman (4 Nov 2018)

Keith GH said:


> Here is something totally different that just might work in your corner tank.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I did do something similar but decided against it because it may cause flow issues unless I lay all stone against the side of tank. The natural shape of the stone would make it a pain to get flat against side and you have then the pain of try to clean that side. That said I'm not ruling it out, I just dont know if I want to rip down current mock scape for fear of not being able to put it back together if it doesnt work.


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## Daveslaney (4 Nov 2018)

If you look on utube at Goerges Famers videos. There is one where he goes to a aquascaping event in America. There is a brief but good example of a Trigon scape on that. They have put the rocks and some wood in the back corner and graded the scape down to the front from that.
Looks real nice.


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## Keith GH (5 Nov 2018)

Carpman





Personally I think this is the best you have done so far, it has varying heights and texture making it look very natural.  As far as water movement nothing a long fine airstone would not fix.  By bringing forward a few Cms tall plants could be placed behind those rocks to give you another feature. 

All I would do to that hardscape is carefully place some various sized rocks in the open section to link it all together. Suggestion one upright and two laying down would be plenty plus it would stop any slippage.  By carefully locating a few rocks in front of that wall of rocks it would look like they had fallen and make it look even more natural.

Keith


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## Carpman (7 Nov 2018)

Trying to sort out a sub-substrate, dosing kit turn up yesterday with Chinese plug on it, come on your sending it to the UK. 
I did get to have a play the other night just for curiosity, I tried the a suggestion of @Keith GH. My verdict, I am torn I love the feel of openness especially in 2nd shot but I don't like shapes it feels confusing if that makes sense, I do believe that Seiryu stone or any strong chiselled looking stone would make for a better mountainscape.


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## CooKieS (7 Nov 2018)

I agree, it was better before.

I don't like to work with okho stones but at least you can glue them together.

You'll need big seiryu for this tank


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## alto (7 Nov 2018)

Just to confuse ...
hardscape only photos - tends to look “better” with little distance between adjacent rocks in a grouping
planted - it often looks “better” with more distance between stones to allow for plant appearance

I’m not much of a dragonstone fan, occasionally I’ll see awesome scapes done with dragonstone but they usually include considerable effort by the aquascaper in altering the natural shape (glueing etc) or having an immense amount of stone to select from 
It’s a much more difficult stone to “star” in a hardscape than stone such as Seiryu, Frodo etc - re light & shadow play & natural shape

My preferred dragonstone layouts tend to be in the style of this tank from from Green Aqua

I’m not sure what’s happening in the above photos with that flat aspect to the uppermost portion of one larger stone .... and it may not be visible really from IRL viewing 
I’m also not keen on that sharply angled stone directing my eye towards the nearby tank wall

Sorry not really constructive


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## Carpman (7 Nov 2018)

Possible Change of Plan . I was just thinking about the mountainscape and had a brainwave, I've got 5 large granite/inca stones in my garden and wondered how a granite mountain would look. Considering the tank sides have now been blacked out they would stand out and then the flora would stand out with the white and black mountains. The only thing I'm worried about is the weight. These are all between 6-8" thick 7-9"wide


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## Barbara Turner (7 Nov 2018)

Sounds interesting, I wouldn't worry about the weight if you don't place them directly on the glass.  Have a play with your scape box and post the photos.


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## Keith GH (8 Nov 2018)

Carpman

Keep trying you will get there eventually.   It might be a good idea to leave every thing alone for at least one week then come back with a clear open mind.

Keith


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## rebel (8 Nov 2018)

I think the dragon rock has more detail/texture than the granite but keen to see your creation.

Tiny details help keep scale in your setup.


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## Carpman (8 Nov 2018)

@Barbara Turner, I will be putting them on polystyrene so they are directly on the glass.
@Keith GH, Unfortunately, I want and think my fish need to get back in their home, I will continue to play for another week then it's going to make my mind up time..
@rebel, I agree dragon has got a lot more texture and detail but too much for mountains, whereas the granite is plainer and more mountain-esk lol

But before I start with the granite, I'm going to have a little play tonight with dragon stone in a horizontal orientation instead of the usual vertical, you can blame @alto for this 1 after watching the above Green Aqua link, not sure if it will work because of width restrictions


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## Carpman (8 Nov 2018)

After a play with the above idea.


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## Keith GH (9 Nov 2018)

Carpman





This Hardscape has plenty of character and extremly easy to scan your eye and look at every detail.

An overall opinion on the last three very sorry to say extremely flat and totally uninteresting, even the rock placement looks very confusing.

Keith


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## DeepMetropolis (9 Nov 2018)

I agree with Keith.. I like that first one of post #12 also it would look really nice if you plan your plants right


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## Barbara Turner (9 Nov 2018)

I was impressed by Ste Rhodes scape for Evolution Aqua. 
Just thought it might help to inspire.


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## Carpman (9 Nov 2018)

Cheers @Barbara Turner but that is a prime example of my problems space/width, oh the joys of dealing with a trigon tank and yes there are some great scapes out there done it a trigon but I want to do something different. That is the hard bit, I also have consider flow again just because of the shape.


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## Barbara Turner (9 Nov 2018)

I very nearly bought a second hand juwel 350 triangle shaped tank to scape, when I got there to buy it it was painted in matt grey emulsion and pretty beaten up. So I came home without it.


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## Carpman (9 Nov 2018)

Barbara Turner said:


> I very nearly bought a second hand juwel 350 triangle shaped tank to scape, when I got there to buy it it was painted in matt grey emulsion and pretty beaten up. So I came home without it.



Lucky you, I sometimes wish I had,  I think they used to clean it with a scourer going by the scatches on the inside.


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## CooKieS (9 Nov 2018)

Keith GH said:


> Carpman
> 
> 
> 
> ...



+1

This scape With the right plants...perfect


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## alto (9 Nov 2018)

I prefer the scapes in the first post with more separated rock groupings & more rock action at the front of the tank - need some tweaking but still my favourite 

I think the Green Aqua version will also work - but doesn’t show nearly as well in standard photos - just needs a bit more rock play


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## Carpman (11 Nov 2018)

New version of the Mountain range. I have a left gap intentionally sort of, could not find a way to marry the 2 together without looking like crap, my intention now is to fill gap with some nice stems.


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## alto (11 Nov 2018)

but have you tried bringing the mountain “range” forward so there is space behind - this will allow for flow & glass etc cleaning - it should also increase the distance perspective (possibly more notable through water than air) especially if you add some back lighting 

In case you missed Jurijs mit JS video on backgrounds - watch for the Q&A 

This Build a Nano Scape by GreenAqua is also worth watching - note how the foreground development changes perception


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## alto (11 Nov 2018)

This is where I find scape boxes limiting compared to the actual tank - aquarium lighting can dramatically alter perception of a scape

Given the care (& patience) you’ve demonstrated to date, I suggest filling the tank before determining final hardscape - then drain for planting


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## Keith GH (12 Nov 2018)

Carpman

I have not changed my mind at all, this is still the best one you have done, it has every thing going for it.

In the end its your tank in your home making it your decision.  

Keith


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## Carpman (12 Nov 2018)

alto said:


> aquarium lighting can dramatically alter the perception of a scape
> 
> Given the care (& patience) you’ve demonstrated to date, I suggest filling the tank before determining final hardscape - then drain for planting



I agree with your comments above. The reason I set up a mock tank was to save messing with wet soil and the rocks in the tank, I believe that would be different if I wasn't using soil.   



alto said:


> but have you tried bringing the mountain “range” forward so there is space behind - this will allow for flow & glass etc cleaning - it should also increase the distance perspective (possibly more notable through water than air) especially if you add some backlighting



There is only really 2/3 spots that I can't get behind fully, the starting edge 2 stones and the large stone following it  
I have not tried bringing the range forward for a few reasons, flow and dead space (can't really plant behind the range without disrupting the illusion of depth, They must be some huge plants to be seen over the top of a mountain range if you get what I mean). If I use my last scape I can have some medium stems (Limnophila / Hottonia / Vallisneria) in the left-hand gap and on a mound in the front right corner, I need to have another look to see if there is anything that looks tree-like. Hoping to cover most of the open area with a carpet of  Eleocharis mini or MC, And dotting around in the gaps some Pogestemon, Alternanthera mini and Staurogyne repens.

But looking at scape, I'm not actually sure what could be done behind the stone at back/centre


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## alto (12 Nov 2018)

What soil will you be using?
I assumed Tropica or similar 

I’ve lost track of the details re what your actual tank is doing at this time 


That first set of 3(?) stones at the left front bother me, the “mountain” looks upside down 
- base appears narrower than top
- texture of the upper viewing surface of main stone appears “opposite” of the other mountain stone strata (perhaps this is  flattening aspect of camera?)


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## Carpman (12 Nov 2018)

@alto Yes you assume right, I'll be reusing ADA Amazonia.
You don't miss a trick do you lol, again you are right the stone in question is a lot smaller at the base of it, I'm hoping to be able to hide that fact with plant/ing, I didn't really have much choice in the orientation of this stone because it had been cut flat on what is now the bottom (so it's hidden)
The tank is empty and clean, well I say empty it has been setup with everything just waiting to be re-scaped and populated with its residents who are currently in a small hold tank.


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## alto (12 Nov 2018)

What have you done to prep the ADA Amazonia?

What was in the first run with the soil
Power sand?
Tourmaline etc?
Time of previous scape?
Fertilizer details?

Try the stone the other way around - think about placing Flame or Spikey moss on top or HC/MC to grow downwards


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## Carpman (13 Nov 2018)

alto said:


> What have you done to prep the ADA Amazonia?
> 
> What was in the first run with the soil
> Power sand?
> ...



First run was almost 2 yrs.
The substrate was Amozonia soil and powder + Maui sand just for the beach.
Ferts were Tnc Complete from whenever I started them. Not regular , thats why I decided on auto dosing this time around.  

Soil Prep work, Washed till clear (not clouding up in water) and currently drying out. 

I would appreciate the opinions on soil re-use from the experienced and those that have done it.


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## alto (15 Nov 2018)

At this point your Aquarium Soil may be relatively depleted - obviously this will depend on plant growth, water parameters, regular fertilizers use etc 
Carpet plants definitely get “tired” as substrate ages (Green Aqua, Jurijs, Filipe Oliveira all mention this)  

ADA also warns that Amazonia allowed to dry out is more likely to collapse and “mud” 

If you decide to reuse your old soil, I’d definitely use bottom additives 
- such as Tropica Nutrition Capsules: watch Jurijs mit JS Aquascaping Masterclass video for details - I don’t recall his recommended dose - scatter some (new soil), then opened capsules etc) 
- ADA system of tourmaline etc (I used  Power Sand once  it kept resurfacing and drove me mad as it was all I saw every time I looked at the tank  ) 
- you could also add a layer of Tropica Growth Substrate (1-2 cm) but if you like to adjust your scape frequently or occasionally - this will mud the water column so be ready with water changes, extra Prime etc 

Even with the enriched bottom layer, I’d still mix in some new Amazonia (or whatever) ... maybe up to 30% new soil depending ...


I just replaced the aquarium soil in my 90cm & 60 cm tanks
I’d set up a new 60P with Tropica soil and the difference in plant root growth & leaf growth was significant, so decided I’d switch out my other tanks on the next rescapes (I like to change plants in running scapes, or even change hardscape etc) 
Note I have very soft tap water with minimal nutrients so this definitely impacts substrate longevity 

Of course I remembered that I meant to add Tropica Nutrition Capsules to the base layer once I’d gotten well into the planting stage  ... next time I just might remember in a more timely fashion


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## Carpman (16 Nov 2018)

I still have new soil and powder left over from original setup so I will use in layers with old stuff,  alfagrog to build up bank layer old soil, layer new powder, layer old soil then top off with new soil.


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## Carpman (17 Nov 2018)

Some slight modifications to try and add some more depth, the mound on right will be right in the corner of tank obviously I couldn't do that in mock-up, that way I can get the fall away more towards the centre.  The last pic I overexposed the soil deliberately because I'm debating whether to put a sand cap over the soil, I feel that the gap needs to have been created by something (river erosion).


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## DutchMuch (17 Nov 2018)

PLEASE DO NOT CAP THAT WITH SAND

Its awesome as it is, FILL IT! lol


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## Daveslaney (18 Nov 2018)

DutchMuch said:


> PLEASE DO NOT CAP THAT WITH SAND
> 
> Its awesome as it is, FILL IT! lol


Totally agree,Looks great as it is,Any ideas on planting yet? Would look good with Monte Carlo between the rocks coming to the forground.


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## Carpman (18 Nov 2018)

No more messing about, going with the last scape, it's time to start setting up tank. First pic possible flow setup, the rest don't really need any explantion. I would have done video but camera were flat. Don't be distracted by the state of the glass ( I hate it), but thats what happens when you dont check properly before buying used, I may try and polish it out next time but the only good thing is when its filled most of it can't be seen. It will probably be replaced with a regular shape possibly a 900.


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## DutchMuch (19 Nov 2018)

oh this...
this is going 2 be good.


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## Keith GH (19 Nov 2018)

Carpman

With all your preparation work every thing should work out OK for you..

Keith


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## Carpman (22 Nov 2018)

Heres a couple of 60s gopro videos of me setting up scape in the tank


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## Carpman (22 Nov 2018)

Here is the full shot, ignore the glass.


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## Keith GH (23 Nov 2018)

Carpman

Going back to the beginning in comparison what you are achieving now is fantastic.

I can see a few concerns in the sloping substrate it will start slipping once the tank is working.  this can be prevented by adding under ground retaining walls using strips of glass or plastic pressed into the substrate.

Keith


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## alto (23 Nov 2018)

I didn’t watch the videos yet but tank scape perspective looks much better 

Plant densely and they will hold a slope surprisingly well


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## Carpman (23 Nov 2018)

@Keith GH @alto   I do have the same thoughts on the soil slipping, had that issue with previous setup even with barriers in place, flow was coming from front of tank so it was actually pushing soil down the slope so I don't suppose that helped. This time is different flow coming from back so effectively trying to push soil up hill with some barriers in place and a full carpet it should lock soil into place. 

I don't know if it makes a difference but when using barriers to retain the soil would you put them perpendicular to soil slope or the tank base ?


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## Carpman (23 Nov 2018)

Plants arriving tomorrow with a fresh bag of Amozonia (going to topoff with approx 1cm of new fresh soil) and last piece to complete tank Co2 tube. Did final bit to cabinet tonight, routed ferts tubes, airline and pump for the 10" air curtain which has been hidden behind stones in corner. Just got to sort/connect gas tomorrow because I've changed to an inline system.

Got to sort running details tomorrow and hope to plant sunday.


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## Keith GH (24 Nov 2018)

Carpman



Carpman said:


> I don't know if it makes a difference but when using barriers to retain the soil would you put them perpendicular to soil slope or the tank base ?


I have only pushed them down vertically, no harm it trying both and see what works the best.
Heavily rooting plants also helps.

One big tip in setting every thing up take it slowly and double check it as you proceed less chance of having problems later.

Keith


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## Carpman (24 Nov 2018)

nd 





Keith GH said:


> Carpman
> One big tip in setting everything up take it slowly and double check it as you proceed less chance of having problems later.
> 
> Keith



Its all done now apart from the gas connection. I'm now going mental trying to plan and work out the timings for lights koralia gas bubble wall and ferts.


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## Carpman (24 Nov 2018)

Well, that's this weekend done! Aquarium gardens sent plants and soil out yesterday for delivery today( in 2 packages for the plant's safety) but somehow DPD have managed to cock up the delivery, they delivered the plants but no soil yet!!!
The cabinet hardware is now complete and fitted, checked seals on gas system got no leaks so I'm ready to go now.




I am however worried about the new plants now. I have now got to store 10 pots of 1-2 grow under my stairs (cool and dark) and 2 plants in holding tank Limnophila hippuridoides, Hottonia in their pots for a week minimum


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## Konsa (24 Nov 2018)

Hi
Lit the tank and put pots in it.6 hours light will be enough and the temperature inside should be ok for the 1-2 grows . I kept one pot on fireplace for months think it was Littorella 
As for the others yime will tell.
Regards Konsa


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## Carpman (24 Nov 2018)

Sorry in advance for a long winded post. Finalised the running details today, but it is all subject to change just a baseline to work from.

Lighting  (max 70% over 5 hrs to start, increasing to 8hrs after max lumnosity is reached (approx 5 wks)) 

Mon-fri
Dawn

Start 06.00.                                                                                        

End 13.00.

Luminosity, blue 50%  white 0%.
Sunrise       (increasing by 10% each week)

Start 14.00.
End 15.00.
Luminosity, Blue 70% white 70%.
Sunset

Start 20.00.
End 21.00.
Luminosity, Blue 50% white 0%.
Dusk

Start 21.00.
End 23.00.
Luminosity, Blue 5% white 0%.

Sat - Sun
Dawn

Start 8.00.
End 12.00.
Luminosity, Blue 50% white 0%.
Sunrise         (as above)

Start 13.00.
End 14.00.
Luminosity, Blue 70% white 70%.
Sunset

Start 19.00.
End 20.00.
Luminosity, Blue 50% white 0%.
Dusk

Start 20.00.
End 23.00. 

Luminosity, Blue 5% white 0%.

Co2 approx 8-10 bps (subject to ph profile)

Mon - Fri 12.00 - 20.00
Sat -Sun 11.00 - 19.00 

Circulation Pump 

as per Co2 times.

Air Curtain

Mon - Fri 21.00 - 00.00
Sat - Sun 20.00 - 23.0  

Ferts  ( TNC complete untile used,  double dose).

38ml TNC + 214ml de-ionised water PW
Daily dosing over 7 days 36ml, until early Jan 2019

I dont know what time to feed plants! Is there a best time to add ferts ? Late night, Morning 

If anyone can see any possible issue's with the above I would appreciate the heads up.


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## Keith GH (25 Nov 2018)

Carpman

Looks like you have every thing sorted out now



Carpman said:


> I am however worried about the new plants now. I have now got to store 10 pots of 1-2 grow under my stairs (cool and dark) and 2 plants in holding tank Limnophila hippuridoides, Hottonia in their pots for a week minimum



I will leave the plant storage to the plant experts, in my opinion they should be stored in a warm and good lighting area.

In there own video it shoes how they are grown.   This is exactly what I was referring to.


Keith


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## alto (25 Nov 2018)

Carpman said:


> store 10 pots of 1-2 grow under my stairs (cool and dark) and 2 plants in holding tank Limnophila hippuridoides, Hottonia in their pots for a week minimum



Don’t put 1-2-Grow (or any other plants) in the dark for a week 

1-2-Grow is best stored cool with moderate light (Tropica has a new “cool” fridge for retail shops, you can see it in George Farmer’s Tropica Interzoo video) - you can easily check the bottoms of the cups for “browning” (often older), also check the liquid for cloudyness, and watch for “puffing” of the plastic cover

I’m sure Dave at AG will have good advice


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## Carpman (25 Nov 2018)

I have moved plants from the cupboard to the living room windowsill, its cool and moderately lit at this time of year (east facing). I did check  plant conditions some have liquid some don't but 2 have very tight puffy tops. Have spoken with AG and they say its fine for puffy lids, Iwll be able to see if they are going bad.


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## dw1305 (25 Nov 2018)

Hi all, 





Carpman said:


> I have now got to store 10 pots of 1-2 grow under my stairs (cool and dark)





alto said:


> Don’t put 1-2-Grow (or any other plants) in the dark for a week





Keith GH said:


> in my opinion they should be stored in a warm and good lighting area.


I agree with the others, You can put the on a window-sill at this time of year, ambient light levels are pretty low and they won't over-heat.

cheers Darrel


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## Keith GH (26 Nov 2018)

Carpman

The problem with window sills the temp can drop considerably at night.

Keith


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## alto (26 Nov 2018)

Carpman said:


> If anyone can see any possible issue's with the above I would appreciate the heads up


Why the 4-5 hour dawn ordeal 
If it’s just to check tank before work, I’d just do a back light or ambient room light 

I’d have light times more consistent rather than altering for the weekend - though having said that, I’m rather arbitrary with my own light schedule and most plants manage just fine (but I doubt it’s ideal)

As I’ve mentioned before, (after months ) I finally noticed that Rotala ‘Vietnam H’ra’ was keeping time irrespective of my light schedule - leafs were “opening” sometime before noon, and beginning to “close” 4-5ish 
I’d set my photoperiod to start 4-5ish ... needless to say, my H’ra was a sad looking lot 
I kept thinking “something” was missing CO2/fertilizer/substrate/shading from other plants/ tap water too soft/intensity (of light) lacking  

I like to dose daily @ CO2 or light start but I’ve no idea if this makes much difference, plants do seem happier with daily  rather than weekly (or perhaps I so imagine as it suits my intuitive thinking)


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## Carpman (26 Nov 2018)

alto said:


> Why the 4-5 hour dawn ordeal
> If it’s just to check tank before work, I’d just do a backlight or ambient room light
> 
> I’d have light times more consistent rather than altering for the weekend - though having said that, I’m rather arbitrary with my own light schedule and most plants manage just fine (but I doubt it’s ideal)
> ...



The 4-5 hr dawn is just a very gentle wake up call. Once the tank has settled it then sunrise & sunset will be made longer (hopefully avoiding any PIA algae) to represent a normal-ish day.

Weekend time changes purely for me, if I'm in I can see my creation and watch the residents swimming around. These times will all come into line when everything has settled in.

Daily dosing, my reason for asking about the time is because I have to dose over 7 days (Jebao dp2 auto dosing),  my water changes will probably be midday-ish so if I dose early I will half the dose in the water change if I dose afterwards then plants have less time to soak up the ferts, Saying that its also going to effect Co2 but I don't suppose they will mind as they are getting double the rest of the time.


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## Andrew Butler (26 Nov 2018)

Carpman said:


> hopefully avoiding any PIA algae


from first hand experience; I found leaving my lights on even 1% algae started growing - it seems algae likes any kind of light colour or intensity so just be warned.
You may not have any problems.


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## Carpman (26 Nov 2018)

@Andrew Butler, well let's hope I can get the balance right then.  There will be lots of carpet with Eleocharis acicularis mini and Monte Carlo, along with some Pogostemon Helferi dotted around and some medium stems namely Staurogyen repens, Alternanthera Reineckii mini, Hottonia and Limnophilia hippuridoides, so if I can get everything balanced no algae problems. I may have been lucky or spoilt on my first scape I only got a bit of BBA which the angels munched on.


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## alto (26 Nov 2018)

I’m with Andrew B on this one, that long low light sounds perfect for algae and I don’t see livestock being all that appreciative either 

I’m about 40min dawn/dusk time, but this will shorten to ~30 min, then lengthen again to ~40 min so the notion of 4-5hours of dawn is disturbing my equanimity  


Light spectrum also _encourages_ different types of growth - in plants and algae - so, again, I’d suggest a little reading on the topic (in peer reviewed or referenced articles ) before committing to “unusual” light schematics

Once plants are established with healthy submerse growth, light play will have a lesser effect - or at least, plants will have enough stored energy to easily recover from any upsets 

How’s that for some not very subtle discouragement 





Carpman said:


> my water changes will probably be midday-ish so if I dose early I will half the dose in the water change if I dose afterwards then plants have less time to soak up the ferts, Saying that its also going to effect Co2 but I don't suppose they will mind as they are getting double the rest of the time.



I try to do water changes before or after the main light period but have never done any consistent exploration of effects on this 
Mark Evans - who accomplished some of the nicest plant growth I’ve seen - felt post-photoperiod water changes (according my sometimes not so perfect recall ) worked best ...
 I’m just better at doing pre-light water changes (ie I usually end up putting the night version off )

I don’t recall your fertilization scheme - EI or ADA style or ???


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## Carpman (28 Nov 2018)

alto said:


> I don’t recall your fertilization scheme - EI or ADA style or ???




I'm using TNC cmplete (double dose =2/3 EI) until its used, I will be going EI style afterwards


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## Carpman (28 Nov 2018)

DPD what a shower! After losing my original soil parcel from Aquarium Gardens on Saturday and ruining my plans, I had contacted AG on Mon and they sent out another bag of soil for delivery Tues, Tuesday comes and DPD says they are delivering both parcels. Guess what? Neither of the 2 deliveries made it, first delivery failed because according to them my premises were closed I live in a HOUSE the 2nd just never showed up! I get more messages this morning from DPD stating they are delivering both again today so with baited breath I watch the first delivery (I'm driving at work), eventually he makes the delivery but Leave's the parcel on my front door mat in plain view of everyone passing it wasn't there by the time I got home I again contacted AG about the missing package the only thing I could think off was the 2nd one is coming between 15.30 - 16.30, Its now 19.00 and still no parcel.  I have just their App and low and behold the driver is delayed FUNNY that NOT. They really are king useless.


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## Carpman (28 Nov 2018)

Wahoo the dpd guy just dropped the soil off finally I can get on as the put it on the floor in my hall I find a big hole in the side of the packaging and the soil is spilling out. For god's sake what next. Now I've got to contact AG again tomorrow. I'm Glad Dave is a nice understanding guy because I would getting fed up of hearing my voice by now. 

So big shout out to Dave @Aquarium Gardens for their customer service.


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## Carpman (29 Nov 2018)

Following the advice of the more experienced, I'm going to shorten dawn to period to 1hr but I'm going to keep dusk period same length and reduce lum to 0% overnight. I will however be keeping a close eye out for algae. Ferts feeding time now added

Lighting  (max 70% over 5 hrs to start, increasing to 8hrs after max luminosity is reached (approx 5 wks))

Mon-Fri
Dawn

    Start 12.00.                                                                                     
    End 13.00.
    Luminosity, blue 50%  white 0%.

Sunrise       (increasing by 10% each week)

    Start 14.00.
    End 15.00.
    Luminosity, Blue 70% white 70%.

Sunset

    Start 20.00.
    End 21.00.
    Luminosity, Blue 50% white 0%.

Dusk

    Start 21.00.
    End 23.00.
    Luminosity, Blue 0% white 0%.


Sat-Sun
Dawn

    Start 11.00.
    End 12.00.
    Luminosity, Blue 50% white 0%.

Sunrise         (as above)

    Start 13.00.
    End 14.00.
    Luminosity, Blue 70% white 70%.

Sunset

    Start 19.00.
    End 20.00.
    Luminosity, Blue 50% white 0%.

Dusk

    Start 20.00.
    End 22.00.
    Luminosity, Blue 0% white 0%.


Co2 approx 8-10 bps (subject to ph profile)

    Mon - Fri 12.00 - 20.00
    Sat -Sun 11.00 - 19.00


Circulation Pump

    as per Co2 times.


Air Curtain

    Mon - Fri 21.00 - 00.00
    Sat - Sun 20.00 - 23.0


Ferts  ( TNC complete until used,  double dose).

    Feeding time 11 am
    38ml TNC + 214ml de-ionised water PW
    Daily dosing over 7 days 36ml, until early Jan 2019.


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## Carpman (29 Nov 2018)

Can one tell me if this is normal Tnc complete ferts prepared for auto dosing after a few days it has settled with sediment? this is what happened when I stirred it up.


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## Carpman (30 Nov 2018)

After the above problems, I got some advice from @ian_m, @tam and Dave @Aquarium Gardens. I have now decided to go full EI using the TNC complete (3 x dosage) this will be administered over 7 days at 8ml per day without any added water. I wasn't planning on full EI until today when I was thinking about the plants and decided that it will give them the best possible chance if I do. I have now ordered the EI starter kit for when the TNC runs out. I will start looking at adjusting ferts dosage after 4/6wks along with everything else so I am not spending all my time on maintenance instead of enjoying the tank and its inhabitants.


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## alto (1 Dec 2018)

I use limited nutrient dosing methodology

Tropica Aquarium Soil
Tropica Premium 2-6ml daily dose (6ml only after 70-80% water change)
Tropica Specialized 2-4 ml daily dose
- for tap, think rain water
Kessil A160 @ 100% ~ 8h photoperiod + some “dusk/twilight” time
< 100g CO2 per month for a 60 x 45 x 52cm (water height), densely planted tank
Depending on plant volume I may increase/decrease fertilizers ...

My goal is moderate growth with minimal visible algae

It works

I tend to keep wild caught fish species from very “clean” waters so I have no interest in EI (excess) levels of nutrient dosing

Both methods work
-  find the balance that suits your schedule and tank 

In the first couple day after “transplanting”, plants really aren’t doing much, so if it take a few days to get dosing sorted, it’s all fine - just don’t blast the lights 14hours a day 

I have a few days a month that end up “no lights” or “14 hour lights”  ... it all works in the end
If I start to see algae - water change, tidy, stop forgetting the lights & leaving them on 12-14hours 

I hate cleaning filters so I have Eheims with various media including the coarse blue sponge & the fine white stuff  - it can really hold an amazing amount of “mud” before the flowrate slows (what Eheim Professional Series is good at)and there’s visible algae


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## Carpman (1 Dec 2018)

Soil now topped off and ready for planting. Just got to double check Co2 and airpump timers, Lighting and ADS setup as above, must remember to prime filter with water from holding tank.






A wider shot


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## Keith GH (2 Dec 2018)

Carpman

Its a pity the tank scratched so badly.   Is there any chance of buying the tank only?

Keith


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## Carpman (2 Dec 2018)

Keith GH said:


> Carpman
> 
> It's a pity the tank scratched so badly.   Is there any chance of buying the tank only?
> 
> Keith


Yes, you can buy the tank separately, fortunately, it's not so bad when flooded. The unit is not in the best condition, and to be perfectly honest I don't think I would buy another corner tank!  When the time comes, possibly next time, I will probably replace it with a 900 opti-white.


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## Carpman (2 Dec 2018)

Sorry this post pic heavy, it's started water going in the tank, finally. I am a little anxious about how this will look. Have a look around.
























































I am very pleased with how it has come out.


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## Keith GH (3 Dec 2018)

Carpman

With all the effort you have put in it shows in your very good Aquascape which is not easy to do in a corner tank.

Keith


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## Carpman (4 Dec 2018)

Tank has been running for a few days now, I can see some growth from the stuarogyens and the ar mini but I can see the MC and Helferi are beginning to melting! Plants were 1 2 grow, ferts EI, lighting period 5hrs @ 60%, injected co2 @ was 12 bps now reduced to about 8bps. 

What would be most likely cause of melt?


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## Carpman (7 Dec 2018)

My latest purchases,


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## Carpman (8 Dec 2018)




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## Carpman (10 Dec 2018)

It's been 1 hellish end to last week!

Saturday's jobs drain the water, set up the ADS with the new ferts micro-macro after water is drained (I can move the tank out of the corner then), change light timings and power, adjust co2 for new timings, refill and finally do a PH profile....

I had to wait for lighting to come on prior to doing Saturdays water change, when it did, I spotted some BBA on the Monte Carlo and Eleocharis mini so out came the toothbrush and the fear started. I didn't want to uproot any of the plants. Anyway, cut a long story short got it cleaned and water changed, added the tanks inhabitants back to their new home and added a load of anubias to hopefully help with algae control. Wahoo job done.

I got up early Sunday, no lay in, I need to check dosing is running right. Oh god it's dosing both pumps at the same time (my fault I didn't dry run them first) so I pinched pump 1’s tube then pulled pump 2’s tube out of the bottle breathing a sigh of relief thinking I had stopped the dose entering the tank only to find out when checking both containers/bottles that the dose had been administered oh well nothing I can do about it now. HOW am I supposed to sort out the ferts lines now the tank is full, the lines run up the rear with only 2" between the tank and wall and go into the tank in the back corner, oh the joys of having a corner tank. I decided I  would have to do everything at the pump or wait till next water change but didn't feel that was an option, I clamped the output lines to stop air getting in and then realised no that’s not right the tank will drain out, disconnected I can now mess about with timings and intervals, I found this to be a nightmare and could not get it to run right. I then found a tutorial, even then it wasn't easy after about 6 attempts and a whole bucket of stress I eventually got it running correctly, I think! Dosing into pots now as test for a few days.

After all the messing about with the above the lights had come on in the tank. I stared into the tank with disbelieve at what I was seeing there are loads of plants (AR mini, Staurogyne, MC and bits of the Eleocharis mini) stuck to the wall of the circulation pump. Here we go again then I see that the Reineckii mini has been almost completely obliterated apart from a few plants the rest are just stems and some have totally disappeared, by this stage. I have a mixture of emotions going on in my head including cursing the shrimp as they are eating it right in front of me, I feel like they are baiting me for a reaction the little sh*ts. I'm at a loss and don't know what to do, they look like they are now moving onto the Staurogyne. It’s now 2pm on a Sunday what the hell am I going to do to stop them! (I know it's only natural but when see your work getting destroyed you know how it feels). I ring @Aquarium Gardens and once more they come to my rescue and advise me to add some cucumber for the shrimp to eat saying they must be hungry, how hungry can they be they have devoured nearly a whole pot! I added 4 clumps of cucumber strips straight away and they flocked to it and are munching the hell out of it thank god, now they will leave the poor Reineckii alone. Problem sorted I thought.

I replanted all the poor floaters and have noticed some gaps in the MC, it's obvious where they have gone.

The first thing I did this morning (6am) checked the tank and to my relief everything was still intact, problems over. This was short-lived on arriving home for a quick visit at 10 am I can see the rest of the Reineckii is gone and another load of plants have been uprooted/partially eaten and again stuck to the pump side wall.

I have now removed some of the bunches of cucumber and replaced it some lettuce leaves, I have also ordered some almond and banana leaves in the hope they will leave the plants alone. 

I did not have a chance to replant these tonight, tomorrow I will do a water change and replant then. 



 

So, the sage continues tomorrow….


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## alto (10 Dec 2018)

Commiserations 

What’s your livestock?

Can you put everyone easily caught back into a holding tank?

I usually wait a few days after a rescape before adding any livestock - in case of floaters or wood choosing skyward travel (this can happen anytime the first week rather than just the first day or 2) I’ve no worries re massive water changes or draining tank for replanting etc 

Once I’m convinced hardscape is secure and plants are beginning to root, I’ll add in snails (they really are fantastic), the smaller shrimp (tigers are my favourite algae crew, more dedicated than most cherry’s, more attractive and predictable than japonica types) 
If diatoms appear, I’ll move some otocinclus over 

I usually only add fish back once plants are rooted - fish activity (especially larger fish like angels) can easily lift plants


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## Carpman (11 Dec 2018)

@alto,  Stock consists of cardinals emperior penguin tetra, a ram, large angel, 10 amano and a few other species that i cant think of at the moment, plants had been in a week when I put stock back in.


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## Carpman (15 Dec 2018)

I believe I now have a tank full (11) of brat shrimp. I have feed them cucumber and lettuce since last Sunday and even purchased dried Banana and Almond leaf just for them which I put in the tank on Wednesday, they have munched on the lettuce and cucumber but not the banana or almond which is supposed to shrimp food!
Anyone got any ideas why?

They have really made a mess of the scape it is virtual unrecognisable from original, planted 2wks tomorrow, stock returned 1wk tomorrow. I sure the shrimps are taking the proverbial p-$$ as I have sat and watched them rooting up plants and rolling the soil down the slopes, there are worse than brats! 

Can soil be moved back up slopes now plants are in? or do I have to uproot plants (what's left of them) and sort soil then replant again ?
I never had any issues with them in the old scape but that was established before I got them! 

Check it out for yourselves before and after

Day 3




Day 10. Reineckii is all gone now, just some roots left.




Day 14.  You can see the devastation caused to the Eleocharis mini in just a few days. 






I have replanted previous floaters, a couple of poor shots of 1 lot of the floating plants.


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## Carpman (15 Dec 2018)

Loads to do again this weekend. Fitting new circulation pump (up to 4000ltrs ph) coming tomorrow. Plant some of the floating plants and my extra pot of Staurogyens in my propagator, if their gonna try and destroy them in the tank then I going to grow them externally. I need to check ADS calibration, measures this week have been a little off and bleed the lines, will be feeding directly into the tank. The last thing to do is adjust lighting period up after dropping it last week to 6hrs @50% now adjusting to 6hrs @60%. Checking  PH  profile today.


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## Carpman (15 Dec 2018)

The propogator with a whole pot of Stuarogyens and loads of Anubias ana gold.


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## Konsa (15 Dec 2018)

Hi
Dont know abot the  anubias but the Staurogine is too wet.U need to keep it like just watered house plant and will grow fast and strong.Try to lower the water level in the tray so it is catching 0.5-1cm of the tray with the soil.I used to grow mine without any water at all just a mist every 4-5 days if is emersed (more often if is tank grown till it grows more robust leaves)If on other  side is Monte Carlo same thing as for Staurogine but dont plant it just put it on top and gently press it down
Regards Konsa


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## alto (15 Dec 2018)

Commiserations 

Is the top soil layer “Powder”?
- this really holds plants much more tightly 
(I use Tropica AS whIch seems to have a slightly smaller grain size in both the regular and powder than ADA)

If you look at Green Aqua or Jurijs mit JS (both mostly use ADA Soils) tank startups, Clithon sp. snails added initially with japonica shrimp added once plants have rooted (though I believe Jurijs rarely adds japonica to his personal tanks)
- unfortunately you’re experiencing the reason for this method 

Likely the Alternanthera leaves weren’t in the best condition though there are instances of even healthy established plants being decimated by J shrimp

Be cautious with the circulation pump as that current may lift soil and plants ... again once plants are rooted, it’s less concerning
Given the lack of plant mass - so no obstruction - I’m confused why your flow is so poor (except that T construct will definitely reduce filter flow)

I’m not sure which plants are floating but both Eleocharis and MC can be mostly buried in soil with just tips showing - this is better than the float/replant scenario which does cause physical damage to plant material  

If the J shrimp are more damage than assistance, remove them ..... I haven’t added japonica shrimp in years much preferring tiger shrimp, cherry shrimp varieties 
My newest acquisition is a group of orange “sunkist” shrimp, they may look very pale in shop, especially as juveniles, but color quickly in tank and do breed (there are rumours that they dont breed in aquaria, but I suspect this is merely that they aren’t as easy or prolific as the usual orange/ red/yellow cherry)
They seem to have a translucent shell with orange color coming from the “flesh” rather than the “painted” shell

Agree with Konsa, dry start method is damp soil not wet


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## Carpman (16 Dec 2018)

This weekends maintenance is done and it looks a lot better than it did!
Ferts now feeding direct to tank.
I was in a dilemma as to how to get scape back to where it was and get some shape back. My options were to lift all the carpet plants and move soil back, move soil with brush with plants in situ, using a pump and using the output to move soil, or hoover out the soil then put it back it correct place, I tried most of the above with the exception of removing the plants in the end I hoovered out the soil (about 1ltr) during water change. The new pump has now been fitted I opted for the Wavemaker 8000 Ltr instead of the 4000 because of price and power available. I do have it on the lowest speed setting for now.





@alto no powder on top just Amazonia. I do have a thin layer of old powder below it left over from the previous scape. Too late to worry about it now definitely cant add powder to a flooded tank  bad enough adding the Amazonia back in mind you, it did not cloud up as bad as I thought it would,


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## Carpman (28 Dec 2018)

Its been a couple of weeks now since my last update so here goes. What's been happening? Obviously still doing the weekly maintenance and 50% water changes as well as almost daily replanting. I won't say this scape has been easy to maintain if fact I think I have made it so much harder for myself by using the alfagrog underneath (to save on cost), let me try and explain why, I have used quite steep slopes to try and create a sense of depth and it has come back to bite me on the rear,  its created a lot more work than I had expected or wanted  to have done. I have to hoover out soil and put it  back every week because it keeps sliding down hills/slopes, a few times I got so fed up with it and was debating on pulling the plants out and re-scaping but as my intention is to get a new regular tank for next re-scape I didn't see any point in starting over again especially with Christmas only a few days away, can you imagine the grief from the boss women I'd be . There really was only 1 solution that would allow me to continue with this scape, I would have to add more retainers to try and stop the soil slippage, hoping this will help with some of the floating plants too. I knew I was going to have problems doing this because the alfagrog is under the slopes of soil, I could only use barriers about an inch high causing its own problems as so as you try and plant the barriers move/float up then soil falls down the slope again. Fighting a losing battle, but I did manage to get there in the end.









After all the barriers soil and replanting done.




I've had some issues with my growth expectations https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/expected-growth.56157/.  I'm dosing EI and using Co2 so it could be lighting flow or the Co2, I'm hoping that has been resolved now after I upped the Co2 a bit and lighting to 7hrs @ 75%. I added another a couple of pots each of MC, AR mini and grass, to cover some of the plant loss and try help with the soil retention.  I can finally see some growth from the MC, the AR mini has got fresh roots so hopefully things are on the up. I am still having to do regular replanting though.

This is how it looked pre the new plants going in





after the planting








And this is currently after re-plant a couple of plants today but as you can see there is growth.








I've been messing around with ph profiling but decided I'm going to have leave it be until I've got the lighting up to 8hr @ full power. https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/new-scape-ph-profile.55995/#post-545446.


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## Keith GH (28 Dec 2018)

Carpman

Welcome to the world of Aquascaping and planting in sloping substrate.

Treat it as a massive learning curve.  You have learnt one very valuable lesson "Cutting corners can often come back and bite you very hard".

Keith


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## Kalum (28 Dec 2018)

Just a thought but why not get your CO2 maxed out now rather than changing it whenever your lights are at full power? 

At least then you'll have a stable CO2 delivery for any light intensity and you'll never come up short with that side of things


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## Carpman (28 Dec 2018)

Kalum said:


> Just a thought but why not get your CO2 maxed out now rather than changing it whenever your lights are at full power?
> 
> At least then you'll have a stable CO2 delivery for any light intensity and you'll never come up short with that side of things



Because if I'm not mistaken then Co2 needs to be adjusted as demands by plants go up with photoperiod and the growing in, I am borderline now with the odd green /yellow drop checker points in the tank but fish are ok. Once the lighting has reached the 8hr @100% and plants have settled/rooted down (so I dont have to replant all the bloody time), the tank should stabilise with less variants to worry about making it easier.


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## Carpman (30 Dec 2018)

Not much has changed at this stage soil on the left is still slipping even with the extra retainers, growth is a bit here and there. MC seems to be doing well at the moment but seems to be growing up rather than along, think this may be a flow issue, to strong maybe I dont know, so it can't root down (I down know maybe someone with more MC growing knowledge could pipe up). The AR mini growth seems to have slowed down. Photoperiod now at 8hrs @ 80%, 12.00 - 20.00, Co2 and flow pump starting 2 1/2hrs prior to lighting and ending 1hr before lights out, still dosing EI. I'm just playing the waiting game now, not going to bother moving the soil anymore there is only so many times you can bang your head of a brick wall before you realise your not actually getting anywhere.


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## Carpman (31 Dec 2018)




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## Konsa (31 Dec 2018)

Hi 
it says "video unavailable "


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## Carpman (31 Dec 2018)

Konsa said:


> Hi
> it says "video unavailable "



Try it now, working for me.


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## Konsa (31 Dec 2018)

All good now


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## Carpman (3 Jan 2019)

Flow all charted/checked now.















I'm still watching for growth Mc still doing ok but only ok, Staurogynes repens has stopped growing and the Reineckii mini seems to have slowed now neither of these looks great now.


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## Carpman (5 Jan 2019)

Its looking quite scruffy currently, nothing to trim yet, still waiting for carpet to cover. Definitely don't want to start messing with the MC just in case it uproots, as it is I had a clump float the other day telling me that its not rooting down very well.


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## Carpman (13 Jan 2019)

Week 6, I'm a Little down; The soil is still moving, MC seems to be adamant in becoming a floating plant instead of a carpet plant.




Prior to this weeks maintenance and soil move/replacement.




After the above with most of the floaters replanted.




I hadn't mentioned that I upped my stock just before christmas adding; 3 more Otto's, 3 Tuxedo mollies, 8 Neons and another Ram, since then I have lost 6 of the neons they just vanished (but they did start vanishing after day 2/3) and it now looks like my older Ram is about to pop his cloggs. I moved my DC to the back corner and found it was suffering from either a lack of flow or Co2 DC was blue/green, to try and rectify this I have increased flow from power head. Everthing else is moving along slowly; the AR mini seems to have taken a turn over the last few days,  Lighting now @ 90%.

I don't think there is anymore room in the cupboard for anymore electronic lol.


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## Ady34 (13 Jan 2019)

Try keep your chin up, it can be very frustrating but eventually it will begin to come together and then it becomes enjoyable again. Sorry to hear about the fish, it’s unusual for there to be no trace of the missing fish.
Just a thought, I’m pretty sure mollies are great at eating and pulling up plants which won’t help them trying to root.....which in turn won’t help with the movement of the soil.


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## alto (14 Jan 2019)

Why not move fish to a temporary home?
You’ve several larger fish that appear to displace soil/plants (earlier video) just by swimming close to the substrate, nevermind when they muddle about looking for food etc 

You’ve put so much effort into this scape!

That MC should be rooted and growing in a couple weeks, and very much so by 6 weeks - that it’s still floating up indicates something is preventing this 
Break up the MC clumps into much smaller portions, plant deeply (this is easiest in dry/damp soil if you’re willing to go that far)

Examine flow in the tank - it just needs to get everywhere, it doesn’t need to do so at a rapid rate - strong current can “lift” the soil and may be contributing to the MC’s lack of root development


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## Carpman (10 Feb 2019)

Things are moving slowly, In the last week I have had an outbreak of snails. I believe its time for some assassins 

 The images below bit more detailed in my defence I must say hand held macro and through water is hard work. Physa and Physella Species,


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## jagillham (10 Feb 2019)

The angelfish could well be the culprit for the disappearing neons?

Had a Rummy Nose Tetra issue for a while... then found a tail wiggling out the angels mouth one day!!


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## Carpman (18 Feb 2019)

Not Much of an update, I had a trim up yesteday and took out some of those pesky snails, I added 3 Assasins on Saturday and it looks like 2 are dead already 1 is MIA . Is this normal (they were bought from Pro Shrimp). Excuse the watermark.


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