# Cold water planted Nano?



## Manrock (15 Sep 2012)

Has anyone tried a cold-water planted nano?

I have cycled a small tank (25L/6gallon) and have 16W of light and a big (for this tank) external filter (recycled from my 'normal' planted tank) and I'm looking to stock it pretty soon. I was thinking of a shoal of white cloud minnow but I'm a bit stuck about algae eaters. Are there any small cold water algae eaters?

Any other info would be welcome too - I can't find much on the web at all! I'm trying my tropical plants in it at the moment (vallis, sag, anubis and crypts) and hope that they should do OK at room temp? It will get pretty cold in winter as the tank is in my classroom (I'm a teacher) and they turn the heating off at Christmas etc.

Oh, and I have lots of cherry red shrimps in my planted tank - will they survive in a room temp tank?

Thanks in advance


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## Ady34 (15 Sep 2012)

Hi there and welcome,
Mark Evans runs all his tanks at room temperature and grows everything, check out some of his journals! Not sure about the really cold spells during a heater less winters mind you....classrooms are cold at the best of times. Maybe worth putting a heater in set at 21 degrees c just incase.
Cheerio
Ady


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## OllieNZ (16 Sep 2012)

Cherries will happily live and breed in a room temp tank, though breeding will slow or stop at low temps <16degC. My plants grew better in an unheated tank than heated (non co2) lower temp water is capable of holding more gas (both co2 and o2) for algae eaters you could look into hillstream loaches they love cold fast flowing water, I'm not sure about how small they come though.


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## jack-rythm (16 Sep 2012)

Hello buddy! happy I found this post! I'm doing the exact same set up as you but styling off a triptych 3 nano 27l tank set up. I have been researching about the walstad method for some time now and currently have a few bowl set ups to experiment with prior to my 3 nano walstad. The aim is to use no filters or heaters and just cycle te system using the correct balances of life. I too have been wondering how I tackle algae.. as for my walstad bowls my algae issue is extremely minimal and I only suffer hair algae which is not too bad as I have danios and shrimp that deal with this. But i too would like something more versitle and set out to destroy the algae 100% of the time. I wonder if ottos would be ok in a cold water tank? Its interesting post you have and I hope we can stay in touch as im interested to see what it is you do, I also feel I may have some stuff you might be interested in. If you have not already researched about the walstad method I recommend you do. Because its very very interesting and opens a whole new  world into low tech. my bowls are so low tech I change water 1 every 6 weeks minimum and my water clarity is better than my high techs..

Jack


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## jack-rythm (16 Sep 2012)

just realised how old your post was..... damn


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## Ady34 (16 Sep 2012)

jackrythm said:
			
		

> just realised how old your post was..... damn


Yesterday


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## jack-rythm (16 Sep 2012)

lol!! i read when manrock joined!! lol well thats good  glad to hear


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## Manrock (16 Sep 2012)

Thanks for the feedback guys.
At the moment I'm looking at hill stream loach as my algae eaters but I will also get some Cherry Reds in there too. Otto's would be better - does anyone know how they do in cold water?
I'm still thinking of a small shoal of White Cloud Minnows - anybody know if they jump (open top tank) or eat mature shrimp?
Jackrythm - yes it would be good to compare notes although you sound far more experienced and technical than me. I tend to just let my planted tanks take care of themselves and they do look a bit like overgrown jungles. Not at all like the beautiful scapes I see on here! I am running an old Ehiem 2224 on this tank and I have to keep the flow on fairly high as it has a slight air leak from somewhere so the Walstaed 'bowl' method won't be for me with this tank (although I might get my class to set one up as a project maybe - just need a bowl). Good luck and keep me posted.


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## jack-rythm (16 Sep 2012)

sounds brilliant, and yeah from an educational point of view it has opened my eyes to not only the dimension  of the stability and balances of the tank but has made me think hard about how our environment works. the walstad bowl explains how this planet is the way it is, unfortunately worse not better. but yes, have a google on walstad. I have some photos of one of my new walstads and later today ill attach a photo for you to see. would really feel grateful if you manage to find out if ottos can live in room temp water..


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## Manrock (16 Sep 2012)

Just found this on PFK website re ottos;

'Chemistry is not critical and, provided the water is kept clean and fresh, temperatures between 22-28°C (72-82°F) and a neutral to slightly acidic pH and soft water will make them feel at home.'

Does anyone know what a typical room temp tank is?


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## jack-rythm (16 Sep 2012)

i think typical room temp is around 21-22? but im not sure on a room temp tank. my bowls are around 22... here is a photo of my new one for you 










am designing my 3 27l nanos to do the same sort of thing... thanks for the otto advice.. i think ill try it with a couple in my bowl and see how they do keeping a close eye on their behaviour


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## jack-rythm (16 Sep 2012)

ps i had just done a water change to the water still has loads of oxygen floating around! ill get another up when the riccia has grown..


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## Matt Warner (16 Sep 2012)

Hi,I have a fluval flora and I don't have a heater in it anymore. I have some celestial pearl danios and some yellow cherry shrimp. They all seem to be doing well!


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## jack-rythm (16 Sep 2012)

yellow cherry shrimp are pretty damn cool... where did u get them from??


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## Matt Warner (16 Sep 2012)

I got them from http://Www.freshwatershrimp.co.uk. Very good quality shrimp too they seem to have settled in ok which is good as I spent over 2 hours acclimating them!


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## jack-rythm (16 Sep 2012)

wow thats doing it properly! hat sort of process did u take? did u keep them in a bag and drop them in the tank? im thinking of getting some but want to do it right and safely!


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## Matt Warner (16 Sep 2012)

I've lost shrimp before within 24 hours of adding them, probably from not acclimating them properly. This time around I poured the shrimp with their water into a plastic Tupperware box. I then got some airline tubing and started a siphon from the aquarium to the tub. I then tie a knot to restrict the water flow of the tubing to about a drip or two every second. I left it dripping until the amount of water in the tub had tripled which took a couple of hours. I then netted them gently into the aquarium. Acclimating them this way allows the shrimp to get used to the new water very gradually, so hopefully they don't get too stressed. Hope this helps.


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## jack-rythm (16 Sep 2012)

Perfect


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## jack-rythm (16 Sep 2012)

What's the difference between neocaridina and caridina shrimp?


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## Manrock (16 Sep 2012)

That bowl looks really good jackrthym. Sounds like the shrimp and ottos should be ok in a non-heated tank - so Otto's it will be! I'll just make sure I heat the tank slightly during the school holidays when they turn the heating off. What's the best way to stop the shrimp being sucked into the filter? In my 'big' tank I just let nature take it's course and reclaim the (live) shrimp from the filter every few months - they seem to thrive in there actually and I usually recover 30 - 40 each go!


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## HarryRobinson (16 Sep 2012)

My tank is room temp  21-22 degrees all the time


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## gmartins (18 Sep 2012)

Hi,

I seldom heat my nano tanks (unless I have some fish that requires it).

The tank is in the attic (not sure this is the correct word) so the temperature fluctuates with the season quite a lot between 12 C during winter to 22 C in summer.
I have maintained a variety of aquatic plants, red cherry and neritine snails all year around with no problems. Even with guppy it seems fine during winter... I would worry about ottos though... white minnows will be fine.

But for a small nano tank, red cherry and neritine snails is all you need... as for cleaning team.

Some people here maintain red cherry on ponds all year around. They do not seem to bother... little bulldozers these guys...

GM


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## jack-rythm (18 Sep 2012)

sweet thats ideal advice, yeah i was curious about the ottos.. maybe ill do some more research.. I was thinking about geting a crew of tiger shrimp.. also what do people think are the best snails to clean your tank with?


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## dw1305 (18 Sep 2012)

Hi all,


> so Otto's it will be! I'll just make sure I heat the tank slightly during the school holidays when they turn the heating off...&.......I would worry about ottos though


I don't think _Otocinclus_ are suitable, they require warm, well oxygenated good quality water. I'd go shrimp and snail only. 

cheers Darrel


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## Manrock (18 Sep 2012)

Ok - thanks - I'll grab some shrimps out of my 'big' tank to add to my Ramshorns that are already in there. I also do not plan to add any CO2 to this tank. What are my chances of good (slow) plant growth? And...do White Clouds jump??

Many thanks


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## viktorlantos (18 Sep 2012)

Well we're not heating out shop and last year with open window the closest tank to the window cooled down to 18-19 celsius. With more light and co2 we've seen that we've got hair algae shortly after that. I guess the bacterial filtration power decrease a lot under 20 celsius. But this was with high light, so you may will be ok with a bit lower light than we had.


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## Manrock (19 Sep 2012)

Hey, that's a good point - I hadn't thought about the effect the lower temps would have on the filter bacteria. Hopefully it will be warm enough for them to function effectively but I'll let you know in January!

Open top tank- will White Clouds jump out?? Anyone?


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## gmartins (19 Sep 2012)

viktorlantos said:
			
		

> Well we're not heating out shop and last year with open window the closest tank to the window cooled down to 18-19 celsius. With more light and co2 we've seen that we've got hair algae shortly after that. I guess the bacterial filtration power decrease a lot under 20 celsius. But this was with high light, so you may will be ok with a bit lower light than we had.



I really do not think bacteria are that sensitive!!! Otherwise, what would be of cold freshwater keepers? They also run filters with bacteria etc... What about pond filters?

I have had no problems running my tanks at lower temps. Actually, I think that plants grow a lot better but this is just anecdotal evidence...

I am sure something else might have happened with your tank. Perhaps more ligh getting in due to the open window??

cheers

GM


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## viktorlantos (19 Sep 2012)

Will find the study about this for you. The key was the high light - sensitive balance - vs too cold water. As we heated up the tank water to 22c again all problems disappeared. 

There's a study about it that colder water cause decreased filter bacterial activity. Need to find it. But this was the first time i experienced that way under 20c with high light


Mi másról, mint iPhone-ról Tapatalk progival


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## foxfish (19 Sep 2012)

I think there is an optimum temperature for bacteria to flourish, outside pond filters most definitely slow down their biological process in the winter months & cold water reef tanks rely on skimmers & water changes rather than biological activity - however I think biological filters still work pretty well down to about 15-16c & up to about 30c.

In the outside pond situation, the spring time is a dangerous time for fish as they start to feed before the filters are fully active. It is quite common to get both algae outbreaks & fish illness at this critical time hence the fashion to heat koi pond thought out the winter months.


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## viktorlantos (19 Sep 2012)

Just an additional thoughts to my previous post. However the window was open by a few centimeter, but no additional light comes in that time. We had -15C outside and the closest tank to the window had a Super Jet filter which is a steel housed thing (exchange heat quicker).

I guess at night the tank cooled down to 15 and daytime was 17-18C

I found something quickly on google but will seek for the detailed answer for you on bacterial activity vs cold water.

http://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html



> Temperature
> 
> The temperature for optimum growth of nitrifying bacteria is between 77-86° F (25-30° C).
> 
> ...



So as the above lines describe there's a border below 20C when you see changes with the bacterial activity. On our high energy tank this proven visible effect in a day. Once the tank got heated back above 21C the issues disappeared just as quickly as it comes before

I remember i had a discussion with probably Clive before on low pH vs bacterial activity. Since we're using soft water on our tank with very low pH 5.6 we're facing different issues than others who run only tap water.

Low pH caused similar issue in a high energy tank sometimes like the very cold water. 

In this enviroment we clearly seen that the first algae what appears with the above conditions is hair algae. Since we're running same fertilization, water change, maintenance, filtration power, filter medium, light hours and light setup we got to a conclusion there's a connection between too cold water and bad filter performance and low pH (around 6.3 and below) and filter performance.

Now all of our tanks are running at 21-22C water temp and pH around 6.5-6.8
We taking care that water has enough buffering capacity so using GH/KH booster on those tanks which got super soft after water changes and has no decor what increasing the hardness.

Without telling this is all something what usually happens at everyone this was only our conclusion in the past 2 years soft water / cold water activity. 

But back to the topic you're fine above 20C under that fishes will be more sensitive to diseases, shrimps will slow down and breeding will stop etc.


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## pepedopolous (20 Sep 2012)

This is really interesting. Thanks for the insight Victor. I use Hydor inline heater set at 24C but to be honest it hardly ever comes on as the room is always 22C or so. .. Maybe I'll just do without the heater next time round. That'll leave more room in the cabinet for a big CO2 reactor


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## jack-rythm (20 Sep 2012)

does anyone know what optimum temperature a CRS needs?


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## rolexbene (20 Sep 2012)

Here is my cold water nano with fire red shrimp


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## Manrock (20 Sep 2012)

I have a small heater so it sounds sensible to set it to 21C and keep the worry of a cold snap in the room effecting the filter performance to a minimum. Also seems that White Cloud Minnows don't usually jump if they are happy with space and conditions. I thought about getting 7 of them for my 6gal - any opinions?


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## Manrock (20 Sep 2012)

Wow - that little nano is beautiful! What kind of carpet is that? I want one!!


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## jack-rythm (20 Sep 2012)

im not tooooooo sure how many litres are in a gallon and im only used to working in litres lol sorry! but I need to know how many chilli rasboras I can have in a 30cm cube.. I was thinking 12-15 max?


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## Manrock (20 Sep 2012)

I've just found a '1cm of fish per litre' rule (on PFK) and that schooling fish do best in groups of 10 or more - even in small tanks. So...a bakers dozen for me now I think.


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## jack-rythm (21 Sep 2012)

13 sounds ideal


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## HarryRobinson (21 Sep 2012)

Manrock said:
			
		

> Wow - that little nano is beautiful! What kind of carpet is that? I want one!!



Riccia


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## Manrock (21 Sep 2012)

Riccia - that needs lots of light doesn't it? never had much luck with it in my tank with < 2wpg. My nano is 6gallons with 16w - so >2wp but no CO2. Would it grow so lushly?


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## jack-rythm (21 Sep 2012)

no far from it.. I grow it in a bowl in my lounge and does fine.. riccia will grow at any light level, I can get it to pearl in my bowl with no fertz, lighting or co2  mine in all my tanks looks wicked and I only do low techs


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## gmartins (21 Sep 2012)

viktorlantos said:
			
		

> Just an additional thoughts to my previous post. However the window was open by a few centimeter, but no additional light comes in that time. We had -15C outside and the closest tank to the window had a Super Jet filter which is a steel housed thing (exchange heat quicker).
> 
> I guess at night the tank cooled down to 15 and daytime was 17-18C
> 
> ...



Hi Victor. Ok I think that proves the point. Is there any chance that the common nitrifying bacteria can replaced by functionally similar bacteria  with a lower temp tolerance? This often happens in natural communities. "Temporal functional redundancy". Will try to check this myself...  

Still, provided that plant growth rate is not affected by lower temps and that there is a relatively large biomass, there should be no problems. They do all the filtering needed. My feeling is that in planted tanks, the filter is just a pump... Does this make sense?

Of all the plants I have grown at 12 C (winter months), the only one I found to slow down its growth was Echinodorus tenellus. Healthy but apparently very little growth. All the others were just fine! Cuba, Eleocharis and HM were perfect.

Victor do not judge me bad. I am just trying to make myself clear about this...   

cheers

GM


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## Manrock (30 Sep 2012)

Here are some shots of my classroom, cold water nano. It definitely needs some work and I am planning a re-scape as soon as the hair algae is under control. Put some WCM in yesterday and have already lost one! Water temp is a cool 18C so may need to add a heater (to keep it at 21C).


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