# my piranha



## Jason Stanford (24 Aug 2013)

as you are aware I had problems with the o2 level in my tank when I repositioned my wavemakers

I put them back to the surface and came home to this, all is well and good again


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## Michael W (24 Aug 2013)

Mate they truly look like they're struggling to swim especially to the right. I really highly, strongly advice you to revisit the flow of the tank. To me they do not look like they're having an easy time swimming. I dare say you will have better shoaling action without that amount of flow.


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## Lindy (24 Aug 2013)

OMG they look like they are in a washing machine lol.. I thought they live in slow flowing water?


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## Matt Warner (24 Aug 2013)

They actually come from lakes or rivers so if they are from rivers they would have much more current than that. I actually think it looks quite natural


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## Lindy (24 Aug 2013)

Wouldn't that be larger, slow moving rivers?


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## Michael W (24 Aug 2013)

Here is a random video i found which shows what I would consider a nice schooling action  If you look at the OP's post and this, the OP's piranhas look like they're trying to fighting against a wave.

BBC's documentary on wild piranhas


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## foxfish (24 Aug 2013)

The op (Jason ) tank has 57 x flow, 13 hours of light & co2 injection of some kind !
And yes that is fifty seven times the volume of the tank every hour.
Apparently this keeps the fish fit......!
Jason has another thread going that has more details by the way.


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## sciencefiction (24 Aug 2013)

I don't know anything about piranhas but they don't look struggling to me much, just "playing". Anyway, O2 shortage is possible in an overstocked tank with piranhas because both of their bioload and messy eating, so lots of organics I suppose on top of that. But yeah, that's a lot of flow, even for a planted tank. And if the light is on for 13hrs, then hardly any co2 will get to these plants with that combination of factors.


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## Jason Stanford (24 Aug 2013)

weird that posted this on the piranha forum and they all say looks great, doing a good job but on here a planted forum im doing it wrong....I know which one I will use the advice of, guys that keep piranha...no offence to anyone.

also the critics...they aren't always swimming like this, they CHOOSE to, they are swimming towards the current. not shying away like they COULD if they chose to. the left side of the tank has very little flow.

I repositioned my wavemakers again....just to see if the naysayers were correct....and they are now doing the same thing on the back glass, where the current now is.

as I said before, piranha are from slow AND fast moving water.

I will show you some under water footage of piranha in the amazon....in high flowing water

because apparently foxfish knows best.

also adding two 12000,lph wavemakers makes it 24000 lph., but this isn't totally correct, the water doesn't move any faster, it just increases the size of the flow. something for you to think about.


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## Jason Stanford (24 Aug 2013)

lights are no longer on for 13 hours cheers for the reply sciencefiction. and matty1983


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## Michael W (24 Aug 2013)

Jason we are here to offer advice. At the end of the day its your choice if you want to take it or not. Foxfish is just giving you his own opinion. Its hard to really gauge what the fish prefers because you are not them. I know this kind of bites me back with my comments but from the looks of how the fish are swimming its hard to not believe they're not really fancying the current in my opinion. Again we are here to offer our opinion so please understand.


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## Jason Stanford (24 Aug 2013)

I do understand, what I am saying is...if they didn't like the current they could avoid it, I don't like burning so I don't set myself alight...
it seems pretty simple to me.

when he prefixes his statement with "apparently", you get an idea of how hes trying to put it across.

I have had only positive comments across all the piranha sites in the UK and US. so ill have to disagree with too much flow, or them not liking it


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## sciencefiction (24 Aug 2013)

Honestly, some fish just love flow although 70% of the area of the tank could have way less turbulent flow for them to go to and relax. I've got guppies and all they do all day long is go infront of the filter outlet or powerhead and blow themselves. I actually moved the powerhead around the tank 4-5 times over the last 2 years and the guppy bunch always moved their "resting" area to where the powerhead is and except for feeding time they stay there and blow themselves. If they want to avoid it, they just need to move out of there. Here's a short video of what they do, in front of both the powerhead and the filter inlet.


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## Jason Stanford (24 Aug 2013)

exactly


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## squid102 (24 Aug 2013)

I guess we can all look at the same thing but still see it differently. I see fish trying to shoal on the left of the tank and trying to swim towards the power heads. But then the force of the water blasts the shoal apart with some fish forced up, some down and some having to turn around. I don't see a "shoal" swimming in the direct flow from the power heads. I see a lot of fish on the far left where the flow has dissipated somewhat, some above the flow and a lot below the flow. None of those fish are actually staying in the flow for more than a couple of seconds.


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## MirandaB (24 Aug 2013)

I agree some fish do enjoy flow,I have rosy loaches which enjoy surfing the current sometimes but they are not forced to fight a current constantly.
There is little space in your tank for them to gain a respite and I can't help but notice that no mention has been made of the cichlid hiding under the wavemakers.
As has been said,you asked for advice and we are all just offering our own opinions.


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## Jason Stanford (24 Aug 2013)

I do see that, this is also only a couple of minutes, I do see them in direct flow, but when they get too close it does knock them about but that's literally a couple of inches from the wavemaker,
also they aren't always trying to swim in the current. most of the time they just shoal normally, they have like a mad half hour where they do what they are doing in the video


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## Jason Stanford (24 Aug 2013)

cichlid hiding? where? lol oh.... in his nest where he chose to be? must be hiding, ...they lay eggs there
some people will see the negative in anything, at the moment those convicts run the tank, they aren't hiding


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## MirandaB (24 Aug 2013)

Jason Stanford said:


> cichlid hiding? where? lol oh.... in his nest where he chose to be? must be hiding, ...they lay eggs there
> some people will see the negative in anything, at the moment those convicts run the tank, they aren't hiding


 
I am not,by nature,a negative person and I am trying to see a positive side to your set up.
You state in an earlier post that your video is an example of their "mad half hour" and that the rest of the time they shoal normally.
I am quite happy to say no more if you would perhaps consider posting a video of their usual behaviour


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## Jason Stanford (24 Aug 2013)

sure, check my youtube channel. lots on there, if not I will upload one tomorrow after work np


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## MirandaB (24 Aug 2013)

I have just checked out your youtube channel but it's hard to see any "normal" behaviour as most of the video's are the usual piranha versus dinner type!
I presume that's where the other 15 of the shoal ended up?


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## Jason Stanford (24 Aug 2013)

not a clue, I have only ever found one head, im not sure I ever did receive the 40 I paid for, the piranha cant bite through bone yet, they aren't strong enough. and I only ever found remains of one. when you buy juvenile piranha you usually lose half as they grow up as they kill weaker fish. survival of the fittest, they calm down after sexual maturity 5-6" between 6months to a year. I named it piranha vs to get views, as you can see the videos are not of any feeder fish or anything distasteful, just wanted to get some views, thanks for viewing  I have 3 zebra danios 1 giant danio, and one guppy in the tank, and have lost none.
the piranha haven't killed any thing yet, apart fromone of their own, but that piranha may have died whilst I was at work, and they ate the remains, I have kept piranha for a while, they do kill it happens, but with this new shoal I am yet to see it.

I will upload a short video for you tomorrow.

you could presume the others were dinner, but I don't honestly know. it happens in aquariums and in the wild with piranha, so I would have no need to deny it, but I am yet to see it with this shoal, I saw it with my last shoal


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## MirandaB (24 Aug 2013)

I know that piranha do this,as to what extent in the wild I don't know but the principle reason in aquariums is down to overcrowding.
You admit that your tank is overstocked now so why on earth did you buy 40 to start with?
Why have the danio and guppy in there,hardly fair to keep them in constant fear of predation?
Sorry for all the questions but I don't want to make judgements on my own assumptions,I hope you understand.


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## Michael W (24 Aug 2013)

Piranhas are only cannibals in nature because at times food are rare which turns them against each other. If in the wild this happens because of the lack of food then in theory the same problem may be happening for the same reason. This could be the problem of having too many as they are competing with food with each other leaving other with no food causing them to attack their own.


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## Jason Stanford (25 Aug 2013)

theres food in the tank constantly, I also feed pellets aswell as lots of different foods, there is always some left so that all get a go, even the danios etc.
which is part of the reason I have only lost the one. (that I know of)
and in the wild when young they still kill each other, its like teenage boys getting into fights a lot, then when they grow up they calm down a lot.
other reasons could be ...an eye damaged when feeding, or a nip. they get weak, separate themselves from the shoal. next thing they are now on the menu.
the cannabilism you are on about Michael is when older, mainly in the dry season where they are left in puddles with no other food source etc, where its for survival.
just to make it clear, I don't have a problem with my piranha, everything is going well, only issue I had was the o2, and to try and get a forest growing at the same time, the o2 is now fine and everything seems ok for now, I agree with what someone wrote about the flow being turbulent, I have tried repositioning the wavemakers a LOT and am finding it very difficult to get the optimum position.
in regards to overstocking I receive a 6x3x2h in a few weeks, they have enough room for now, and the new tank is more than enough for them at 5"-6" when they slow down growth to an inch a year.

I don't want the danios, the only reason they are in there is I had them a long time ago, some neighbour dumoed them with me, at the time I had a 16" serrasalmus rhombeus imported from peru, I wasn't going to rehome them as I would have had to stress my rhom getting them out, as it turned out they were too quick for him and lived anyway.
the importer who I sold the rhom too in the end gave me a great price where I got £800 of juvenile piranha for him, the transition was instant and again with my newly imported shoal my concern wasn't the 3 danios in the tank, but some how they have lived...again.

if the piranha were hungry they would have killed another fish by now, I even have 5 ancistrus in the aquarium, pretty small and none have been eaten. these would be a free meal if they were hungry, so im pretty sure they are fine for food. like I say though if a fish becomes ill or weak it will be food, that's the nature of piranha, they don't necessarily go out murdering other fish, they spend a lot of time roaming and nipping fins for their nutrients as they grow back.

they are territorial in an aquarium though, so if I ADDED new fish..thats another story..

the overcrowding in aquariums im not too sure on by the way, as I have seen overstocked tanks which are amazing, usually the more you have spreads aggression anyway.  in fact the better tanks/shoals I have seen are from overstocked. ill find some vids of this as well.

im not sure if different rules apply  to having as many as I have, reason being I have kept them for a long time now, the last shoal was a shoal of 10, ended up with 7. quite a small number, but they had territories in the tank, this big shoal doesn't, they act more like a shoal....

on the piranha forums I usually see people keeping 5 or 6, which I bet they are acting the same, making territories for each other, and chasing away the others when they swim in it. which in the end will end in nips etc.

in my tank theres way too much going on to get a territory, this may change, I can only say whats been happening so far.

lights aren't on yet and I have work but ill try get a video for you asap.

thanks for the replies


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## Jason Stanford (26 Aug 2013)

heres a quick vid of faster water, Jeremy wayde also caught some piranha from rapids


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## Jason Stanford (26 Aug 2013)

rubbish quality vid, just uploaded it quickly to show you they aren't always trying to dive into the current and that they chose to.

will delete the video later as its awful lol


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## dean (26 Aug 2013)

Just because fish are found in part of a river that is fast glowing doesn't necessarily mean that's where they prefer to live, they could be moving through for any number of reasons unless they are adapted for such a life likes plecs are
Perhaps if you placed a large piece of wood or rocks in the tank to give an area of calm water, then they would have a choice 
It's like putting a greyhound on a tread mill 24/7 because it can run fast doesn't mean it wants to do it all the time.
You could put wave makers on a timer and add airstones to keep O2 levels high.
Trout would be a good example of a fish found in fast water, but they lay up behind rocks or in slow pools a lot of the time


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## Jason Stanford (26 Aug 2013)

the left hand side has next to no current


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## Iain Sutherland (26 Aug 2013)

Hey Jason, i know very little about Piranhas so wont speculate on flow/natural behaviour.  I do really like the tank though, just as an observer the fish dont look stressed and its clear to see there are slow water areas of the tank if they so choose.
I think following the advise from the species forum is correct, of course if you would like advise on plants and how to balance the two aspects together we are more than happy to help where we can.
Will be nice to see it develop especially when the new tank arrives so keep us updated.


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## Ian Holdich (26 Aug 2013)

Right, I think we have made our points of concern to Jason, can we cut him a little slack now. He has posted a vid showing there is not a lot of flow in one of the corners of the tank. We all learn from these kinds of processes.


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## Jason Stanford (26 Aug 2013)

cheers lain, completely agree, I didn't post here thinking I would have got the comments I did.
and I will definitely need advice on the planted side.
cheers for the reply


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## Andy Thurston (26 Aug 2013)

I like it. I bet theres more people on here keeping fish from still waters in high tech tanks with 10x turnover but they never get jumped on like that. I thought it was a little much but didnt know, so didnt comment. Looking forward to seeing their tank develop.


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## MirandaB (26 Aug 2013)

My apologies Jason if I have been a bit hard but I'm a very passionate about fish as well as my plants 
I'm quite happy to shut up now


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## foxfish (26 Aug 2013)

Ian Holdich said:


> Right, I think we have made our points of concern to Jason, can we cut him a little slack now. He has posted a vid showing there is not a lot of flow in one of the corners of the tank. We all learn from these kinds of processes.


 I though that was quite a good choice of words there Ian "can we cut him a little slack now" although I think you should of directed the comment towards the fish LOL..

Anyway can I just ask you what would be you best advice to help Jason grow his plants...just asking like?

I have already tried to help by quoting the standard statistics of 10 x flow, subdued light & carful addition of C02 but perhaps there is a way of not gassing of the Co2 at very high flow rates?
I honestly don't know how you could feed in enough C02 without emptying a 2kg in a few days, we know that trickle towers burn up Co2 but what about huge flow rates ... surely that will just gas off the C02 almost instantly?

I don't know how Jason is getting the gas into the tank or what his bubble rate is though?

We do know that in even a standard big tank, like Jason's, it is not always easy to get algae free growth but, I wonder if the disturbed surface area will diffuse the light?
I guess that certain types of algae related to poor flow would not be not be an issue though...
It is just not something most of us have come up against to be able to give first hand experience, we know what does work but I doubt many of us can offer much help other than to say ... get a drop checker although that might not work either lol...ok other than to get a ph pen & do hourly test during light on.


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## Jason Stanford (26 Aug 2013)

I have a drop checker, and thanks for the reply foxfish,
it read like I had very low co2.  when I had the o2 problem I repositioned the wavemakers back at the top of the tank. this must have actually created better flow to the other end of the tank because it now reads pretty good, im probably burning through co2 lol, but all seems well in the tank for now. I am getting a green algae on the glass but its not loads


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## ghostsword (27 Aug 2013)

The flow is too high.. they need less flow than that..


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