# Alien invasion of Algae



## french47 (7 Apr 2013)

I have been setting up a tank with a fish less cycle at the same time trying to sort out my lighting over the last 3 weeks.
I have just come back after a week away and this is what I found. 
Question 1 What is it
Question 2 will a tank black out kill it
Question 3 Is it a strip down.
The wood had been soaking for a month and had been scrub, before I went away I did notice fluffy mould coming onto the wood.
The water test this morning was as follows
Ammonia 0.5
Nitrite  0
Nitrate  2.0
What is my best course of action to clear this tank?


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## NatureBoy (7 Apr 2013)

Hi, with the fishless cycle are you adding any ammonia? The ammonia value you have will promote the growth of some quirky algae such as this...


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## french47 (7 Apr 2013)

Yes I started three weeks ago, with Ammonia at 15 ml then topping up every day to hold at 3 ppm, all was fine until I went away and stopped dosing.


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## NatureBoy (7 Apr 2013)

I don't know where the advocation for heavy ammonia dosing comes from regarding establishing an aquarium ecosystem, but it jars with my experience of building up to a balanced aquarium.

By adding one off (large) doses of ammonia you're basically going to be seeing some massive pendulum swings rather than stability as bacteria boom, oxygen depletes and then bust, etc. You won't be able to predict how the tank will utilise that excess of ammonia, but spectacular algae would be a safe bet. Ammonia is the toxic you should try to avoid at all costs and you'll still be generating it in your aquarium so don't worry about that, but let the bacteria build up to what the aquarium will produce.

Let plants lead the way to establishing a safe environment for your fish. Plant heavily from outset, make sure plants are growing new leaves and roots (follow advice on here for making that happen), etc and then add a few fish. The plants will provide a safety buffer for your fish whilst nitrifying bacteria populate the filter (if you can use matured filter media from an existing tank, etc all the better).

Good luck with it all.


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## french47 (7 Apr 2013)

Hi Nature Boy, I have kept fish for years an I thought i would try the fish less cycling as recommended in  Fishless Tank Cycling and Avoiding New Tank Syndrome  Published by ​​Fishadmin​ ​on his web site, the reason for 15 ml at the start is the tank is 110 gallons as I say it was working fine I put enough each day to bring it up to 3 ppm and the next day ammonia and nitrate were right down and nitrate was up. I only got this problem when I left the tank for a week with the light on 9 hours aday.
I think I will black the tank out and see what happens, it might mean a strip out.
Cheers


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## mark4785 (7 Apr 2013)

I would clear the tank by scrubbing all of the algae away from the decor and then I wouldn't bother keeping the lights on for any length of time until you've completed your fishless cycle.

Ammonia is a useful thing to quickly cycle an aquarium but it can cause problems too if the correct conditions are created.


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## BigTom (7 Apr 2013)

I've never done a fishless cycle, seems like a terrible idea.

Instead of spending weeks or months dumping poison into your aquarium, spend the same time growing a large biomass of beautiful, healthy plants which will then look after your fish.


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## Henry (7 Apr 2013)

I've always just chucked the fish in from day 1. A big handful of duckweed will eat up any ammonia you can throw at it.


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## mark4785 (7 Apr 2013)

Henry said:


> I've always just chucked the fish in from day 1. A big handful of duckweed will eat up any ammonia you can throw at it.


 
What happens if the duck weed doesn't grow? Whats the backup plan then?


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## Henry (7 Apr 2013)

I suppose this was a slightly irrisponsible response. I retract it. Then again, in the presence of nitrogenous compounds and anything other than absolute darkness, duckweed will grow.


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## BigTom (8 Apr 2013)

mark4785 said:


> What happens if the duck weed doesn't grow? Whats the backup plan then?



Have you ever tried stopping duckweed from growing?!


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## mark4785 (8 Apr 2013)

BigTom said:


> Have you ever tried stopping duckweed from growing?!


 
Well it doesn't grow in moving water. It grows in little to no moving water. When it over-runs the tank and clogs up the filters you then run the risk of ammonia building up if there isn't another plant to opportunistically utilise the organic compounds that the decaying duckweed has leached. I should imagine some fish eat it, so again, you run the risk of it become a source of ammonia.

There's nothing wrong, I guess, from filling an aquarium up with plants and then stocking it but the owner of such an aquarium would have to be very experienced in knowing how to keep plants alive so that they use up toxins (i.e. ammonia and nitrate) rather than become a toxin.


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## flygja (8 Apr 2013)

To me, adding fish from day 1 is only safe if the filter media or substrate is matured. Using new nutrient-high substrates like ADA Aquasoil, its not advisable to add fish on day 1 as it leaches a ton of ammonia for the first few weeks. Even more if you disturb it during scaping.


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## Henry (8 Apr 2013)

Hornwort then?

I appreciate that a mature filter is a good option, but isn't always available. I've never done a fishless cycle, and never had problems with the above algae. I had fish deaths in my first tank, years ago, but these days I avoid problems with heavy planting. 

Even inexperienced fish keepers would be better off throwing in some very easy plants (hornwort). This would prevent early failure that is brought on by the misinformation given by irresponsible fish shops; "Run the filter on an empty tank for 48 hours".  Plants are much better at creating a biologically stable environment than any filter media you can buy, so anybody involved in the hobby would benefit greatly from learning the basics of plant keeping. Low light and some Hygrophila difformis takes no effort at all, you don't even have to plant it!

I realise this is slightly off topic now, but I started so I thought I'd finish.


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## sciencefiction (2 May 2013)

There's probably nothing wrong with your tank. The stuff is on the wood could be due to sap it's realeasing. All my wood gets grown with white fuzzy stuff for the first couple of months and the fish are very happy tearing it off. Yours just went out of hand and it actually looks beautiful 
9hrs light a day is a bit too much during cycling considering you've got just a few jave ferns in there.
And I don't see why fishless cycling via adding ammonia is any different than cycling with Ada amazonia or any soil containing ammonia. It's exactly the same ammonia. Additionally, it involves no live creatures either way.


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## dw1305 (3 May 2013)

Hi all,


sciencefiction said:


> And I don't see why fishless cycling via adding ammonia is any different than cycling with Ada amazonia or any soil containing ammonia. It's exactly the same ammonia. Additionally, it involves no live creatures either way.


It is all NH3/NH4+, but it is also different. In any stocked tank ammonia is continually diffusing from the gills of the fish, shrimps, snails etc and being created from the break down of proteins by microbial action, this is not the same as adding ammonia hydrochloride, in a series of big hits, to an empty filtered tank.

The thing to remember is that NH3 (and to a lesser degree NO2-) is a highly toxic substance and ideally we want to minimise its level in the system. Planted tanks are great for this, because the plants take up NH3 (as NH4+) as well as providing extra surfaces for nitrification. Similar processes occur in the substrate, plant roots are leaky structures and create a huge area for nitrification in the substrate.

The whole concept of "cycling" is based upon the assumption that the filter bacteria are the only site of nitrifying bacteria, and that those bacteria are entirely responsible for the removal of ammonia and its conversion to NO2 and NO3. Both those assumptions are incorrect for all tanks (other than ones with no décor what so ever) and mainly irrelevant to planted tanks.

This is why you can plant a tank and then just wait without adding old media, ammonia etc. Once the plants are in active growth the whole plant/microbe system is a lot more resilient than a microbial system and about an order of magnitude more efficient.

Biological filtration is really all about oxygen, and that rarely gets a mention when cycles are debated.  

Have a look at these pages on the "Skeptical Aquarist":
Nitrogen cycle: <Nitrogen cycle | The Skeptical Aquarist>
Fishless cycling: <"Fishless" cycling | The Skeptical Aquarist>
Substrate: <Substrate | The Skeptical Aquarist>

cheers Darrel


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## Martin cape (3 May 2013)

I had the same stuff when I done my fish less cycle. I got rid of it every day so never got that bad. It does eventually go on its own once it's all going properly.


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## sciencefiction (3 May 2013)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> It is all NH3/NH4+, but it is also different. In any stocked tank ammonia is continually diffusing from the gills of the fish, shrimps, snails etc and being created from the break down of proteins by microbial action, this is not the same as adding ammonia hydrochloride, in a series of big hits, to an empty filtered tank.
> 
> ...


 
I agree with all that Darrel. But having done a fishless cycle many times, there's nothing wrong with it and once done, the fish will be totally safe. It also has the advantage of being able to fully stock a tank at once after the cycle is established. For me it has taken 3-4 weeks from start to finish, whether the tank is planted or not. And I can control the amount of ammonia unlike soil based substrate leaching ammonia, or fish stock. Plus I don't have to be doing water changes like mad, just one at the end before introducing stock.
Cycling with plants is even better, because besides the filter bacteria, there's an additional source that takes up ammonia so it should speed it up. And even in a planted tank, most people install their filters at the same time, and also use substrate that establishes bacteria too. It isn't just the plants that do the entire thing and establishing healthy plant growth will take as much time or even greater than growing bacteria in your filter.
 Also, promoting plant growth fast enough to actually be the sole remover of nitrogen compounds, you'd need to think over it right. You can't just get some play sand and stick amazon swords into it and stock it with fish, not even after 6 weeks.  Whatever way you go,it has to be something that promotes fast growth, whether high light/injected CO2, or nutritious soil/decomposition for CO2, and a combination of right plants, not just a few mosses and anubias on manzanita wood with some carpet plants, even if it takes 80% of the tank as is often suggested as a rule.

For some of us that weren't able to start densley planted tanks due to financial reasons or availability of the plants we want, then fishless cycling is great. Don't ask me how much I had to pay to get enough plants for a 100G tank and at the end they got stuck in the post and melted to nothing, losing a few too.  I am glad I had cycled the tank by the time I waited for all of the stuff to arrive, and it's been several weeks since it's setup without any bit of algae, not even diatoms, considering the plants aren't doing it's best yet.
However, the wood grew white fuzzy stuff as usual while I cycled with ammonia but 8 platies and a guppy had it ripped apart in 2 days after introduction to the tank and it's now history.


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## dw1305 (6 May 2013)

Hi all,


sciencefiction said:


> Also, promoting plant growth fast enough to actually be the sole remover of nitrogen compounds, you'd need to think over it right. You can't just get some play sand and stick amazon swords into it and stock it with fish, not even after 6 weeks.


Honestly you can, but you really want a floater like Amazon Frogbit (_Limnobium laevigatum_) with access to aerial CO2. Duckweed is great and free.


sciencefiction said:


> And I can control the amount of ammonia unlike soil based substrate leaching ammonia, or fish stock. Plus I don't have to be doing water changes like mad, just one at the end before introducing stock.


You can't measure the levels of ammonia accurately with test kits, it really is guess-work.


sciencefiction said:


> Plus I don't have to be doing water changes like mad, just one at the end before introducing stock.


Get away with you, water changes are always a good idea.

cheers Darrel


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## lurch1000 (6 May 2013)

Water changes can be beneficial for the fishless cycle with household ammonia as well.


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## sciencefiction (6 May 2013)

Yes, water changes can be beneficial but are not normally necessary. You aren't trying to remove the ammonia or nitrites with them, because you dose ammonia  With soft water however, you may need to refresh it to keep the Kh at bay, otherwise the Ph can crash.



> You can't measure the levels of ammonia accurately with test kits, it really is guess-work.


 
Well you don't need exact measure because knowing the concentration of ammonia you use and the tank volume, you calculate the ammount of ammonia needed to achieve a certain ppm concentration. From then on you can just dose every so often or use a liquid test kit to tell you whether the ammonia is near converted or not if you've nothing better to do, and then dose, same for nitrItes after. Liquid test kits are good enough for that.
My last fishless cycle went with 2 tests, one in the very beginning and one in a few weeks time to see how I was getting on and it was done by then.


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