# Dosing Macro and Micro on the same day, and add Easylife Ferro. but precipitation?



## JayZH (25 Nov 2014)

I've started EI dosing to replace my expensive Tropica Spercialised Ferts. 

I've been unhappy with the massive Macro dosing every other day, which increases the NO3 to the range of 60 to 80 ppm for a short period before plants absorbs it. Fish looks stressed. My NO3 reading is as follows: Dosing in the morning, 60 to 80 ppm, in the evening, drops to 20 to 30 ppm, the next day I have to add 1ml Tropica Specialised Ferts to top up the NO3 with the Micro.  

I've decided to do Marco and Micro at the same time with half the amount, but read the post the "cheap" Micro will cause Fe precipitation, thus I am thinking adding additional Easylife Ferro. But will Easylife Ferro interact with Marco and causing precipitation as well? Does anyone looked into it? 

I hope the above plan will work out. any thoughts would be very much appreciated.


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## Vazkez (25 Nov 2014)

Hi there 

Lol you made my head spinn with all the Macro / Micro 

Anyway mate I am sure someone will say this but why you makeing yourself trouble and doing it the hard way. Throw your test kit out from the window and just follow the EI dose. If you want to dose it daylly no problem you can calculate it. 

Regarding your question yes you should not those Macro and Micro (lol again  )  at the same time as P makes Fe precipitation as you already know and there should be at least 6 hours differences between the dose so you can dose Macro in morning and Micro in evening. However many dose it at the same time without any problems.

However I will just follow the EI and trow out the test kit as I said... Too much stress and nightmares.


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## JayZH (25 Nov 2014)

Thanks, the 6 hours difference is new to me, I will at least follow the morning Macro, evening Micro routine. 

I am doing it the hard way, becasuse one of my serpea tetra I have for well over a year died at lunch time after dosing Macro this morning(second week into dosing). I see other fish are getting stressed. heavy breathing etc, then they were all back to normal in the evening after NO3 dropped to 20 to 30ppm range. 

RIP little red guy... 

Why P makes Fe precopitate? out of curiosity, what's chemistry formula? This is why I asking for the Ferro dosing question, hoping its a more stable formula of Fe that does not react with P.


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## ceg4048 (25 Nov 2014)

There is no way your fish dies because of NO3. You need to look elsewhere, and while you are are busy witch hunting NO3 the real culprit goes undetected. And, as mentioned your test kit is lying through it's teeth.

Cheers,


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## JayZH (25 Nov 2014)

Thanks ceg4048. appreciated your input. I've stayed on this forum long enough to know test kit lies and know a lot of people have success with Dosing without killing livestock.  I tried two test kits, Both API and Tetratech, I think the tetra one is much better test kit wise. 

But I just want to play safe. I don't mind to have precipitation when dosing Marco and Micro together, but I just added commerical Fe to top up the Fe that has been precipitated. But Easylife doesn't actually show which compounds consistitutes their Ferro Ferts.


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## ian_m (26 Nov 2014)

JayZH said:


> but I just added commerical Fe to top up the Fe that has been precipitated.


But that will precipitate out as well ??? The chelated iron in the micro reacts with the potassium phosphate in the macro to form insoluble iron phosphate which precipitates out and becomes unavailable for plant use. You really must dose alternate days to allow phosphate & iron to be used by plants rather than precipitated out.



JayZH said:


> I tried two test kits, Both API and Tetratech, I think the tetra one is much better test kit wise.


How do you know which one is lying the most ? I suspect you NO3 readings are clearly wrong.

I've had over 350ppm NO3 in my tank for days after a pump failure and fish weren't stressed or worried, I only noticed when the heard the dosing pump running 24/7 and the just refilled 1litre macro container was empty. No change in fish behaviour. You need to look elsewhere for your fish issues.


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## Jose (26 Nov 2014)

ian_m said:


> I've had over 350ppm NO3 in my tank for days after a pump failure and fish weren't stressed or worried, I only noticed when the heard the dosing pump running 24/7 and the just refilled 1litre macro container was empty. No change in fish behaviour. You need to look elsewhere for your fish issues.



Wow man! you carried out a really useful experiment for the rest unintentionally. Do you remember the fish you had in there? And how long did you keep those ppm levels in the tank?


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## ian_m (26 Nov 2014)

Jose said:


> Do you remember the fish you had in there? And how long did you keep those ppm levels in the tank?


Guppies, cardinal tetras, flying foxes, clown loaches, various coloured mollies, something yellow or other, ottos and numerous other "mid water column" fish. Levels of NO3 that start causing major issues are in the region 1500ppm and higher, so when people say "my fish are suffering due to my high nitrate levels"..I know different.

Reason for the mistake was miss setting the timer for my pump at the weekend and only realising later in the week.
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/diy-dual-peristaltic-dosing-pump-with-alternate-switching.22332/

What was annoying was, 50% water change in the morning before work (pumped onto lawn and hose straight into tank), losing 1litre of macro solution and plants not looking super fit and wonderful after such a monster feed.


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## Jose (26 Nov 2014)

ian_m said:


> Guppies, cardinal tetras, flying foxes, clown loaches, various coloured mollies, something yellow or other, ottos and numerous other "mid water column" fish. Levels of NO3 that start causing major issues are in the region 1500ppm and higher, so when people say "my fish are suffering due to my high nitrate levels"..I know different.



Ok I get this and for fish I believe it. But are CRS actually sensitive to it over 10 ppm? Is tis also a myth and they could go higher? although I bet not as high as fish. Maybe they are just bothered by the change in conductivity.


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## JayZH (26 Nov 2014)

I did a bit of readup on the internet. it appears that Potassium Phosphate is an iron binding agent. Does it mean it is optimal to use other phosphate ferts instead of Potassium Phosphate? Such as Ammonuium Phosphate? or even Iron Phosphate? anybody has any thoughts?

Checked the EasyLife Ferro. it is concentrated Fe II. I guess that will react with Potassium Phosphate as well, will it?

The bottom line is, even for Alternate day dosing, as long as there is surplus Potassium Phosphate, it wil bind any chelated Iron you throw in the next day to let it become inactive. that contridicate the whole point of EI dosing, which is to supply more nurtrient plants needs.

Thoughts?


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## Jose (26 Nov 2014)

JayZH said:


> I did a bit of readup on the internet. it appears that Potassium Phosphate is an iron binding agent. Does it mean it is optimal to use other phosphate ferts instead of Potassium Phosphate? Such as Ammonuium Phosphate? or even Iron Phosphate? anybody has any thoughts?
> Checked the EasyLife Ferro. it is concentrated Fe II. I guess that will react with Potassium Phosphate as well, will it?
> The bottom line is, even for Alternate day dosing, as long as there is surplus Potassium Phosphate, it wil bind any chelated Iron you throw in the next day to let it become inactive. that contridicate the whole point of EI dosing, which is to supply more nurtrient plants needs.
> Thoughts?



The tank water dilutes it enough so that not an important ammount precipitates. Dont worry too much about this. That a reaction occurs doesnt mean it happens with a 100% rate of reaction.


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## ian_m (26 Nov 2014)

JayZH said:


> Such as Ammonuium Phosphate? or even Iron Phosphate?


Ammonium phosphate doesn't exist, even if it did it would add ammonium to the water, not good for fish. Iron phosphate in insoluble in water thus no use for plants.



JayZH said:


> Potassium Phosphate is an iron binding agent


Other way round iron compounds (chloride normally) are used to precipitate/coagulate phosphate out of water for water purification.


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## JayZH (26 Nov 2014)

Hi Jose. Thanks for your optimism, but chemical reaction still happens in diluted form as long as the chemical is evenly distributed in water column.

It starts to make sense now on the Tropica Specialised Ferts, I always wonder why it contains Ammonium. in addition to Potassium, Nitrate and Phosphate. Obviously they must be using Amonium Phoosphate in place of Potassium Phosphate. so they can keep Fe II stable in the same solution.

Agree? it seems the optimal daily dosing formula would have Ammonium Phosphate.. Then I will have my DIY Tropica Specialised Ferts...


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## Jose (26 Nov 2014)

You would still have K+ and Fe2+ and PO4 in your tank wouldnt you? Wont it still precipitate. I guess I dont really get it. Can you explain in detail please? Unless the ammonia/um is helping to keep the Fe in its Fe2+ form. I guess we can run a simple test to proof this.
Also are we talking about keeping an all in one fert or about precipitating components in our tank? Tank water and ferts are different media.


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## JayZH (26 Nov 2014)

Hi Jose

I simply mean in Macro Mix as below,

Potassium Nitrate
Potassium Phosphate
Magnesium Sulphate

Since Potassium Phosphate is the Iron binding agent, replace it with Ammonium polyphosphate, I checked on Wikipedia, its a much better form ferts,100% solvable in water. so you have the below for Macro, Plants loves it, and you can mix the Macro with Micro, and the Iron F2+ will not react with Ammonium polyphosphate.

Potassium Nitrate
Ammonium polyphosphate
Magnesium Sulphate

What do you think?


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## ian_m (26 Nov 2014)

Woow be careful, you are adding ammonium compounds to your water, not good at all as far as fish are concerned. Also will just dissociate into ammonia/ammonium (very bad) and phosphate which will react with the iron chelate and precipitate out as iron phosphate. Also it will raise pH thus releasing the chelated iron even more. You normally store chelated compounds in low pH solutions to keep the iron chelated.

Virtually everyone that tries to deviate from EI "oh I invented this dosing technique..." ends up with issues.

1. Either dose EI properly macro one day, micro another.
2. Make an all on one solution and dose everyday.
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/allinone.htm
Follow this recipe 100%, the ascorbic acid and potassium sulphate are NOT optional. One holds the iron chelated and other stops it going mouldy.


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## Jose (26 Nov 2014)

In solution its the phosphates from the K3PO4 that bind with Fe2+. So youll be replacing the phosphates for polyphosphates. I think this will precipitate Fe2+ as well wont it?


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## ian_m (26 Nov 2014)

Jose said:


> I think this will precipitate Fe2+ as well wont it?


Yes. And as a bonus kill your fish with ammonia, result


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## JayZH (26 Nov 2014)

ian_m said:


> Woow be careful, you are adding ammonium compounds to your water, not good at all as far as fish are concerned. Also will just dissociate into ammonia/ammonium (very bad) and phosphate which will react with the iron chelate and precipitate out as iron phosphate. Also it will raise pH thus releasing the chelated iron even more. You normally store chelated compounds in low pH solutions to keep the iron chelated.
> 
> Virtually everyone that tries to deviate from EI "oh I invented this dosing technique..." ends up with issues.
> 
> ...


 
This is exactly what I am looking for  
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/allinone.htm

A breakdown of Tropica's all in one formula. Thanks!

I think I won't have the energy making a DIY All in One. I will half dose the Marco on alternative day, and the next day top it up with Micro and one 1 ml Tropica Specialised all in one ferts to boost the Macro. All what I have been doing happen to be accidently correct. only need to half the Marco dosing amount.

Cheers, and thanks all for your detailed insights!!!


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## Jose (26 Nov 2014)

JayZH said:


> It starts to make sense now on the Tropica Specialised Ferts,



Im sure they add ammonia/um for a reason but I dont think anyone here knows why or maybe there is(?).


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## ian_m (26 Nov 2014)

JayZH said:


> I will half dose the Marco on alternative day


Why only half dose...? as I said 'Virtually everyone that tries to deviate from EI "oh I invented this dosing technique..." ends up with issues' unless you lighting is low and therefore a proper EI dose is not needed.



JayZH said:


> A breakdown of Tropica's all in one formula. Thanks!


Notice the presence of ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate helps keep the iron chelated and, as they are dosing ammonium nitrate, helps keep ammonia as the less fish toxic NH4.


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## JayZH (26 Nov 2014)

Jose said:


> Im sure they add ammonia/um for a reason but I dont think anyone here knows why or maybe there is(?).


 
I noticed from use Tropica s ferts, I did get a mini spike in nitrite every day. guess, either Ammounium turned into Ammonia, or the nitrfying bactria converts Ammoium also to Nitrite.

Plants actually prefer Ammoium, I read its in the order of Ammoium, Nitrate, Nitrite. so I guess Tropica put Ammoium for the benefit of plants rather tan livestock. The mini spike is minumal, 0.25ppm. doesn't harm anything.


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## dw1305 (26 Nov 2014)

Hi all,
The other posters are right, the problem is that nearly all iron (Fe) compounds are insoluble. Once you have Fe++ (ferric) iron ions in solution they will combine with nearly all anions (including hydroxide OH-) to give insoluble compounds.

Because iron II is one of the most tightly bound ions in cation exchange (<"the lyotropic series">) Iron compounds are amongst the first to be precipitated. This is why soils develop an "iron pan", and ancient leached soils are formed of insoluble iron and aluminium compounds (<"laterite">).

This problem led to the  development of iron chelation, using compounds like <"FeEDTA">. This is chemically stable but degraded by light, meaning that a trickle of iron ions are released by photo-degradation.

Phosphorus has some of the same problems, in that most phosphates are also insoluble. Polyphosphates also act as chelators, but are cheaper and less efficient ones than EDTA, EDDHA etc.

cheers Darrel


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## Jose (26 Nov 2014)

Thanks Darrel! 
Can you tell by the colour of your solution if your Fe-EDTA bond has broken?. Mine is green at first and then turns into orange I think after some time.


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## ian_m (26 Nov 2014)

Jose said:


> Can you tell by the colour of your solution if your Fe-EDTA bond has broken?. Mine is green at first and then turns into orange I think after some time.


It is the ferric iron (iron II) compound which is red/brown coming from the ferrous iron (iron III) compound which is green. Plants prefer ferrous as generally more soluble and by keeping pH low (acid) stays as ferrous iron.

Read end of article here.
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/allinone.htm

Not so sure if it makes any difference ferrous or ferric as far as plants are concerned.


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## Jose (26 Nov 2014)

JayZH said:


> I noticed from use Tropica s ferts, I did get a mini spike in nitrite every day. guess, either Ammounium turned into Ammonia, or the nitrfying bactria converts Ammoium also to Nitrite.
> Plants actually prefer Ammoium, I read its in the order of Ammoium, Nitrate, Nitrite. so I guess Tropica put Ammoium for the benefit of plants rather tan livestock. The mini spike is minumal, 0.25ppm. doesn't harm anything.


This has been debated at the barr report and the conclusion is that using ammonia isnt worth it. But what is the reason they use it if its not worth the risk? Mnah my plants grow fast enough really so....


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## Jose (26 Nov 2014)

ian_m said:


> It is the ferric iron (iron II) compound which is red/brown coming from the ferrous iron (iron III) compound which is green. Plants prefer ferrous as generally more soluble and by keeping pH low (acid) stays as ferrous iron.
> Read end of article here.
> http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/allinone.htm
> Not so sure if it makes any difference ferrous or ferric as far as plants are concerned.



Thanks Ian, I think Ill have to prepare a new solution.


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## dw1305 (26 Nov 2014)

Hi all, 





Jose said:


> Mine is green at first and then turns into orange I think after some time.


Ian is right iron II compounds (ferrous) are green, and iron III compounds (ferric) are rusty coloured (sorry I've just noticed I've lost a "I" in the last post). 

If you don't keep your FeEDTA in the dark the FeEDTA will be photo-degraded and the iron ions will form insoluble Fe2O3 (basically "rust") and precipitate out of solution. 

If it is a sealed bottle the available oxygen may be used up before all the iron is oxidised.  <"It was the oxygen from the first photosynthetic organisms"> that deposited most of the iron ore reserves that we still utilise.

cheers Darrel


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## ceg4048 (27 Nov 2014)

The reason is simple. Ammonium salts are cheaper and deliver a higher Nitrogen content per unit weight than NO3 can. It's basic economics. That's the same reason farmers use ammonium salts. Ammonium has nothing to do with binding in this context. That's all completely rubbish. The salts all dissolve and the ions are free to react depending on the temperature, acidity, hardness and so forth.

The assumptions made by the OP are absolutely preposterous. A fish dies, a bogus test kit reports impossible numbers, and, based on dodgy values, the hobbyist then decides to use ammonium based salt, which is potentially 1000X more toxic to life than NO3.

Cheers,


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## Jose (27 Nov 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> The reason is simple. Ammonium salts are cheaper and deliver a higher Nitrogen content per unit weight than NO3 can. It's basic economics. That's the same reason farmers use ammonium salts. Ammonium has nothing to do with binding in this context. That's all completely rubbish. The salts all dissolve and the ions are free to react depending on the temperature, acidity, hardness and so forth.



Such a big company is selling fish poison then? They have quite an image to maintain. Something isnt adding up in my book. Maybe theyve done some testing and it turns out that our filters run better with a bit of ammonia added periodically so that it can better cope with a spike(?¿). Just guessing but fish ferts arent produced in such a big quantity as to go to the extremes of adding a fish poison, but its just my opinión of course. Its not like fertilizing crops in the field where it does make an economical difference. I think a fish product is all about quality even if they have to charge the buyer 1 pound more.
To be honest this isnt such a big deal for me since my plants grow fast enough already, its just curiosity.


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## ceg4048 (28 Nov 2014)

No, your suppositions are entirely off the mark. There is one very obvious way around toxicity and that is to reduce the concentration to minuscule levels, and so that's what they do. It's not just that company, but all of them that use ammonium salts. The concentrations are extremely low and the bottle is almost 99% water. 

So, in reducing the concentration level, they not only reduce the toxicity, but also reduce the VALUE of the product, while at the same time, they charge ridiculous amounts of money for the bottle. Please go to the Tutorial section of the forum and read the EI tutorial. I explain all this in my opening paragraph.

This strategy was started by Dupla. At the time, they used a nitrate salt and so they could use a much higher concentration level in a bottle the size of an eyedrop bottle. So you squeezed the bottle and drops came out. This came to be known as "Dupla Drops". Unfortunately, at a unit price of over £500 per liter, the thing that "dropped" the most was the hobbyist's spendable income. 

A couple of clever guys (Sears & Conlin) figured out that there was just KNO3 and trace element mix in the eyedropper bottle - stuff that could be found in any garden center. Thus was born the recipe known as "Poor Man's Dupla Drops" (PMDD) and due to the threat of copyright infringement rules, had to be renamed "Poor Man's Dosing Drops". EI is, in many ways, an extension of PMDD since Sears & Conlin, at the time, still implicated PO4 in algal blooms, so they did not add PO4 to their recipe. In modern times the recipe has been extended to PMDD+PO4 since Barr demonstrated that PO4 was not responsible for algal blooms and was instead, very necessary.

Many people use commercial fertilizer products (or no products at all) with great success, and they always are quick to argue this point, but the thing they forget is that most people use tap water in their tanks and in fact, most tap water, in the UK at least, usually have some level of PO4 and NO3 anyway. IThat's why Nitrate haters are always blaming Nitrate for their algae and for their fish health woes, and that's why they are always looking for ways to eliminate Nitrate.

Cheers,


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## Jose (28 Nov 2014)

Mmmm Ok, Ok. In all honesty Ive never really used comercial products like this one. But thanks for the info. But it still not a good business practice IMHO.
Maybe its designed to be dosed daily. This way added to the low concentration doesnt let there be any bad effect on life forms.


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## dw1305 (28 Nov 2014)

Hi all,
I have a similar jaundiced view to Clive on the honesty and integrity of many of the large suppliers of "*specialist aquarium*" equipment, fertilizers, fluorescent tubes and filter media.

I think in this case that they use ammonium polyphosphate for a reason, and that is because it is widely available and has properties as an emulsifier and chelating agent. If it was purely on a cost basis, urea (CO(NH2)2) would be cheaper.

My suspicion would be that the companies use what is the most cost effective option for them, which I can understand, but then they use advertising which is deliberately obscure and misleading (although presumably legal) to sell a, cheap to produce, product for a huge mark up.

I start from the premise that I'll review at the advertising blurb for the bits of science that I'm pretty sure that I understand.

Because I come from a scientific back-ground in botany and horticulture, and I've worked for ~20 years in a lab. where we did a lot of work in ecology and phytoremediation, I think I've probably got more understanding of the principles that under-pin much of what happens in the aquarium than the average fish keeper.

The other great advantage I have is that I work in the same school with statisticians, animal ecologists, plant physiologists, micro-biologists, plant ecologists and analytical chemists, so I when I don't understand something I can always ask a colleague.

For example when an analytical chemist with 35 years experience,  in a lab. with ~£500,000's of pounds worth of kit, tells you it is quite difficult to measure some anions (like NO3-) accurately, you tend to take their word for it.

Whilst where on the subject of ions, plants can only take up nutrients when they are in solution as ions. Every NO3- or NH4+ ion is the same, it doesn't matter where it came from, it doesn't know it was from NH3NO3 or KNO3 etc., once they are in solution they are all the same.

Reactive elements like potassium (K), nitrogen (N) and oxygen (O) have been on Earth for the last 4.5 billion years combined in a huge range of compounds, they don't "know" what those compunds were.

It is the same with fluorescent tubes with "special phosphors" etc. It is all smoke and mirrors, or the Emperor's new clothes.

cheers Darrel


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## Jose (28 Nov 2014)

dw1305 said:


> Because I come from a scientific back-ground in botany and horticulture, and I've worked for ~20 years in a lab. where we did a lot of work in ecology and phytoremediation, I think I've probably got more understanding of the principles that under-pin much of what happens in the aquarium than the average fish keeper.
> The other great advantage I have is that I work in the same school with statisticians, animal ecologists, plant physiologists, micro-biologists, plant ecologists and analytical chemists, so I when I don't understand something I can always ask a colleague.
> For example when an analytical chemist with 35 years experience, in a lab. with ~£500,000's of pounds worth of kit, tells you it is quite difficult to measure some anions (like NO3-) accurately, you tend to take their word for it.


 This is why people like you are quite useful to these type of forums. Its not that people like Tom Barr are Gods or anything its just this is what they do for a living and have been doing this for a few years. Its always very healthy in IMO to have different views as long as they are based ones.


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## Frenchi (1 Dec 2014)

Hi 
I contacted john APF and ordered the following this enabled me to mix the whole lot together and dose the normal EI but because it's all in one I add it at half the dose daily .. Or if you prefer you can add at full dose but just 3 times a week .. My shrimp and fish are still alive and not to forget my plants are too. 
magnesium sulphate 
Potassium phosphate
Potassium nitrate
Ascorbic
Sorbate
Chelated trace elements


Cheers

Mick


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## Edvet (1 Dec 2014)

dw1305 said:


> phytoremediation


 Had to look it up, but that is interesing stuff, good job man.


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## JayZH (1 Dec 2014)

Frenchi said:


> Hi
> I contacted john APF and ordered the following this enabled me to mix the whole lot together and dose the normal EI but because it's all in one I add it at half the dose daily .. Or if you prefer you can add at full dose but just 3 times a week .. My shrimp and fish are still alive and not to forget my plants are too.
> magnesium sulphate
> Potassium phosphate
> ...




Cool, I think i will order the same, what's the quantity of Ascorbic and Sorbate you ordered, Are they in salt form or liquid form? what's the percentage of the element you mix with other dry salt.


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## Frenchi (1 Dec 2014)

JayZH said:


> Cool, I think i will order the same, what's the quantity of Ascorbic and Sorbate you ordered, Are they in salt form or liquid form? what's the percentage of the element you mix with other dry salt.


It's in dry form 

500ml Bottle
Add Macro parts (Nitrate, Phosphate, Mag)
Add 1/2 tsp Ascorbic & 1/4 tsp Sorbate
Add water and dissolve
Add Trace
Shake and leave overnight
I tend to times the above by 4 and mix in 2 litre pop bottles.. 

Hope this helps

Edit sorry should have said this is standard Ei mix but then dose standard Ei 3 days a week or half the dose and do it everyday


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