# The importance of a 1 point pH drop



## sonicninja (11 Jan 2015)

Hi everyone,
I've had a planted tank for about a year now and have had a lot of issues getting the plants to stay alive and grow. I've finally got the hang of it after a few posts of these forums (thanks everyone). 

I'm currently having success with easy species such as hygrophilia and staurogyne repens and have a good and steady routine with dosing ferts and injecting CO2. Ive also made a series of significant improvements on my tank to increase my chances of success but one bit still eludes me. 

I've read a lot about trying to get a single point drop in pH before lights on. I'm currently injecting at a level that my fish are comfortable with but any higher the fish begin to show signs of stress. However despite pushing my injection rate as high as i can without upsetting the livestock I cant get near to the suggested drop. In fact even when I had no livestock i attempted the same thing and could only get close with a bubble rate of close to 7bps (hard to gauge when its that fast).

My surface agitation is at a minimum and the CO2 currently comes on 3 hrs before the lights, it seems like getting lower than 6.5pH is a struggle for me (my tank water is 7.0pH normally).

The CO2 is injected via an in-line atmoizer and then a spray bar running the length of the tank. The filter is an Eheim 3E 450 (1700lh) on a 65litre tank so even at half the stated output my flow is plenty and all the plants move visibly from the front to the back. 

My KH is 6dH which means considering my pH is 7.0 before i even start injecting CO2 Im already at an ideal level (http://s171.photobucket.com/user/plantbrain/media/Aquatic plants/CO2_Graph_zps9c124ef0.gif.html).

Can someone explain this to me? Perhaps it could be my pH pen (cheapo ebay model) or alternatively its ability to read water with a high proportion of RO water. Very confused!!!

Any help would be great, should I continue to get a full point drop or give up and look elsewhere?

Cheers everyone!


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## fablau (11 Jan 2015)

Forget the kh/co2 table, that works if you use RO water, otherwise it is misleading. Focus on the PH drop, and I think you are on the right track.  In order to be able to increase CO2 without stress fish, you need to increase surface agitation, without splashing, remember that Co2 and O2 are independent. What's your tank size?


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## sonicninja (11 Jan 2015)

Thanks fablau. The tank is an ADA 60P (60x30x36). I currently just have the spray bar which I could attempt to raise. Annoyingly they are made in a what which prevents it being lifted but i'll see if i can do it in a safe way this afternoon.


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## pepedopolous (11 Jan 2015)

Seriously, I think the best way to get consistent surface agitation (and no surface film) is an Eheim Skim 350. 

The 1 pH drop can't be taken as gospel because CO2/pH varies so much throughout an aquarium, and we most likely measure pH somewhere near the surface of the water (where CO2 levels are highest).

If the fish are unhappy due to too much CO2 I guess they go to the surface because (assuming you have decent agitation), O2 levels will also be the highest there.

Another reason that you need agitation is to be sure that the CO2 completely de-gasses (once injection stops), to a level in equilibrium with the air. This way you know that any pH drop is due to the CO2 you have added and that you are truly starting from 'zero'.

P


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## sonicninja (11 Jan 2015)

Okay, this is really helpful. I have a small 250lph powerhead that I could put in to increase the surface agitation but Id rather keep equipment in the tank down to a minimum. Is raising the spray bar a good place to start?


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## pepedopolous (11 Jan 2015)

I have a stainless steel inlet tube with a built-in clear acrylic surface skimmer. Was expensive and they aren't on the market any more. 

So I can only recommend the Eheim Skim 350 which I used before and now use on another smaller aquarium. It isn't too expensive and it gives consistent performance (you will have to clean the sponge each week though). 

With a surface skimmer, the skimming part floats on the water and so it goes down as the water evaporates. With a powerhead or spraybar, the surface agitation is gonna increase as the water level falls. 

P


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## sonicninja (11 Jan 2015)

good point, perhaps i'll look at the eheim as ive seen it fairly cheaply. So presumably I could run the spray bar where it sits naturally at about 3cm below the surface and a skimmer on the side to keep surface agitation up.


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## sonicninja (11 Jan 2015)

.......having said that I cant see how the skimmer would agitate the surface? Looking at a vide the water is sucked in gently at the top and expelled much lower down in the water column. Does it collect a mixture of water and oxygen at surface level?


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## Marcel G (11 Jan 2015)

Do you know that higher alkalinity (wrongly called "KH") does prevent pH drops much better then low alkalinity?
So if you have alkalinity of 6°dKH, and someone else has 1°dKH, then his pH can drop much easier then yours, as alkalinity work as a buffer against pH fluctuation.


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## john dory (11 Jan 2015)

i think it`s best to have the holes in the spray bar just under the surface.


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## pepedopolous (11 Jan 2015)

The skimmer aerates the water well because the water falls down the hole at the top. I think it is here that the gas exchange happens as there is a high surface area to volume ratio.

P


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## parotet (11 Jan 2015)

A short clip to show you how the spray bar ripples the surface when the light and co2 are on, and then what I do during the night. No need to use any skimmer in my case. The spraybar is just 1.5 cm under the water level. This way I achieve a 1 ph drop with KH 10+, inline atomizer, 2 bps and a filter rated 10x the tank volume



Jordi


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## pepedopolous (11 Jan 2015)

2 bps? I don't get it. I have KH 4 and I get a 1 pH drop with uncountable bubble counts! 

P


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## sonicninja (11 Jan 2015)

This is mine, I've raised it as much as I can and this is with the water as high as it would ever be.


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## sonicninja (11 Jan 2015)

I agree, I'm amazed that you can can achieve a tank like that with 2bps. I think that's what I find difficult to get my head around, I understand that conditions and parameters differ tank to tank but it amazes me that you can create a tank as a lush as that with 2bps and i struggle despite good injection and circulation methods with a far higher rate. Also, my tank looks far smaller than yours, I dont understand why my tank is seemingly so inefficient. 

For example, there is a chap on here who im sure you've come across. He also has an ADA 60P and the growth is simply stunning, however he doesn't seem to have had anywhere near the issues i've had with getting the CO2 to the plants and got amazing growth and health using an in tank glass diffuser and glass outflow pipes placed at one end of the tank. This isn't to downplay his achievements but quite the opposite, its just frustrating the amount of time and effort you can put in for often little in return.

Having said that im still chuffed with what i've accomplished. Ive learned a lot but its just that final piecing together of the puzzle that im looking for. It seems to allude me!


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## parotet (11 Jan 2015)

pepedopolous said:


> 2 bps? I don't get it. I have KH 4 and I get a 1 pH drop with uncountable bubble counts!
> 
> P


Well... As you know bps is not an accurate indicator of the gas delivered. Your bubbles may be smaller, your diffusion device different, your timing, tank volume, etc. At the end it is a matter of effectiveness of your dissolution technique which includes lots of aspects.

This is IMO the most tricky part of high tech planted tanks. There is no magic recipe that can be transferred to other tanks. pH drop, flow rate and so on are just rule of thumbs but the fact is that each one has to fine tune all this for his/her tank.

Jordi


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## parotet (11 Jan 2015)

sonicninja said:


> I agree, I'm amazed that you can can achieve a tank like that with 2bps. I think that's what I find difficult to get my head around, I understand that conditions and parameters differ tank to tank but it amazes me that you can create a tank as a lush as that with 2bps and i struggle despite good injection and circulation methods with a far higher rate. Also, my tank looks far smaller than yours, I dont understand why my tank is seemingly so inefficient.
> 
> For example, there is a chap on here who im sure you've come across. He also has an ADA 60P and the growth is simply stunning, however he doesn't seem to have had anywhere near the issues i've had with getting the CO2 to the plants and got amazing growth and health using an in tank glass diffuser and glass outflow pipes placed at one end of the tank. This isn't to downplay his achievements but quite the opposite, its just frustrating the amount of time and effort you can put in for often little in return.
> 
> Having said that im still chuffed with what i've accomplished. Ive learned a lot but its just that final piecing together of the puzzle that im looking for. It seems to allude me!


Well, it took me one year to find the sweet point and my tank is far from being good. I gave achieved to grow a good amount of plants but honestly not very difficult ones. Apart from pH drop other issues are important as you know. For example I haven't been able to reduce algae to the minimum with high lights (in 64 liters I have just 48w t5 20 cm above the water surface), I have no hardscape blocking my flow (in my journal I explain that this tank is 'just plants', a way of testing plant growth in the easiest conditions).... Once I will be able to do so it will be the time to play the aquascaper

Jordi


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## sonicninja (11 Jan 2015)

Fair enough. I suppose that each tank is very different and has its own issues to overcome. With this forum being absolutely crammed with members who have insanely good looking tanks its easy to be downbeat if you dont feel you own tank is up to much. I know im on the edge of this tank exploding, compared to what I had 4 months ago before the re-scape its fantastic but i know there's more to do.


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## Brian Murphy (11 Jan 2015)

As some have already said, each tank is set up differently and all the tests such as drop checkers, bubble rate, type of diffusers etc etc all factor in to getting the optimum levels for plant paradise and non toxic conditions for fish and shrimp.  You seem to know what you need to do but it can hard to just get that balance right .... keep trying by upping one factor and seeing if there is any change and if not try the next factor and so on until you see which one makes the most difference and then try factor 2 and so on until you see that change and then you will have your own rule of thumb.  It can be irritating seeing some people get it right straight away or soon after set up but that is just the way it goes.


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## sonicninja (11 Jan 2015)

thanks Brian. 
Since upping my CO2 today (fractionally i should add) my fish are looking fairly sheepish. the corys usually play at the front of the tank but i havent seen them since upping the CO2. The otos are also looking pretty lethargic. 
Im not concerned yet but everything has got a bit 'dozy'


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## parotet (11 Jan 2015)

sonicninja said:


> thanks Brian.
> Since upping my CO2 today (fractionally i should add) my fish are looking fairly sheepish. the corys usually play at the front of the tank but i havent seen them since upping the CO2. The otos are also looking pretty lethargic.
> Im not concerned yet but everything has got a bit 'dozy'


What about reducing your light intensity a little bit to reduce CO2 demand? It looks like these two tiles are really bright and the tank is not that large... You can always use more intensity once you have fixed your problem.

Jordi


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## Sacha (11 Jan 2015)

Too much light. 

Cheers,


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## sonicninja (11 Jan 2015)

Thanks Jordi. I had a very lengthy thread about my lights already 
I had them at 25-27% for a long while and was advised to drop the level for the reason you stated. 

Basically I had no luck with this tank until I decided id had enough and was ready to give the whole thing up. As as last ditch attempt I decided to whack them up just to see the results (the lights were the last things left to try). Within a week I was growing stauro and the tank showed the only signs of promise id seen since starting. 

They were up at 40% then and Ive slowly dropped them down to 36% each. They probably look a lot brighter since the lights were off in the room when i took that video. I could continue to drop them over the next few weeks too i suppose.


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## tim (11 Jan 2015)

Do you have surface film on the water at all ? Fwiw I couldn't get co2 right on my 90cm Untill I added a skimmer, IMO even a slight film traps unused co2 ie at the surface not the substrate and it builds to unhappy levels, surface skimmer alows this to gas off, wasteful but better for livestock and I found I could increase bubble rate significantly without affecting my livestock. Only caution ref the ehiem skimmer it loves to eat shrimp and small fish so it's worth finding a way to prevent this, mesh, foam etc to block the opening.


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## sonicninja (11 Jan 2015)

Hi Tim.
No I don't generally. I perform a lot of frequent water changes which helps keep it at bay too.


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## tim (11 Jan 2015)

It's baffling sometimes, you do seem to have all the bases covered, flow co2 not extreme lighting, just have to keep at it mate, it's a nice looking scape by the way. Also fwiw I use london tap hard water and two different scapes in the same tank, first scape ph drop was from 7.8 -7.1 healthy plants grew in in around 3 months, next scape, same tank lights filter etc ph drop of 1.4-1.6 and I could not get anything to grow and had nothing but issues


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## Sacha (11 Jan 2015)

parotet said:


> A short clip to show you how the spray bar ripples the surface when the light and co2 are on, and then what I do during the night. No need to use any skimmer in my case. The spraybar is just 1.5 cm under the water level. This way I achieve a 1 ph drop with KH 10+, inline atomizer, 2 bps and a filter rated 10x the tank volume
> 
> 
> 
> Jordi





You do that every night before you go to bed?


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## parotet (12 Jan 2015)

Sacha said:


> You do that every night before you go to bed?


When I'm home, when I do not forget it.... But yes, this is done mostly every night. When I wake up in the morning and I'm taking my cup of coffee, I turn it back to its position and add the ferts. That is basically my daily tank management. 
(But I keep on with my 2x 40% WCs weekly, probably unnecessary but plants and fish love it and it is a longer time twice a week for maintenance: cleaning glass, siphoning debris, etc. time consuming but this is the advantage of having this 65 liters tank as my larger tank)

Jordi


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## sonicninja (12 Jan 2015)

Well what you're doing is clearly working. Ten point to Griffindoor! 


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## parotet (12 Jan 2015)

sonicninja said:


> Ten point to Griffindoor!


Sorry, lost in translation...


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## sonicninja (12 Jan 2015)

There is no translation, it makes no sense in any context and Im not sure why i put it


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## Paulo Soares (12 Jan 2015)

Fablau sayd it all.
I was strugling with this issue for months, injecting and injecting, making changes here and there bla bla and guess what.. i follow Clive advise (Ceg4048) I bought a pump, put it right next to the outflow, both poiting into diffuser and in a couple of hours, for the first time i reach a drop of 1 PPm (7.6 to 6.6) ... easy as simple. 
Taking a good or closer look i can see the astonishing diferences in the aqua.... mostly right next to the substrate.full of bubbles and the plants with bubbles attached all over them   That was quite a diference! Oh if it was!!!

Conclusion: Lack of waterflow never let me have a one ppm drop in the PH cause i was not dissolving it, but wasting it!!. And even, my diffuser is a prety dump... by the time my ADA Diffuser arrived i should be capable of decreasing a little bit more what is coming from the fire exting. Cause with a diffuser like this ADA the bubbles will be broken even better  

Now, not only i have to decrease closing the valve but i finally got that drop!  

I can see the bubbles going all the way closest to the substrate and not up there!. Not going up as before. Just a little insignificant parcel. 
And of course plants dancing a little bit more cause ot increasing flow but... who cares? As long they get what they need, and grow beautifully, with colours let them dance !! 

For me it was this simple to solve this "drop" issue.

Best regards,


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## foxfish (12 Jan 2015)

sonicninja said:


> Ten point to Griffindoor


 LOL...


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## sonicninja (12 Jan 2015)

Thanks Paulo. Ceg helped me a lot on my original thread actually. I originally started with a much lower rated filter and a set of lily pipes. Then I changed to a spray bar and diffierent flow patter, then one additional powerhead.....then another. The I finially changed my filter completely, ditched the powerheads and increased the spray bar diameter to 16/22mm.

Im convinced my problems now have little to do with overall flow. Im not far exceeding the suggested flow minimum for a tank my size although im sure there are small alterations i could make to improve the flow patters. The spray bar sits even higher now which should help. 

Anyway, Ive increased the CO2 which is making the entire water column look like ive put a giant alkazetzer in it. Not sure if this is good or not but I can visibly see the flow pattern working and the CO2 reaching the back of the tank before it rises back to the surface.


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## Paulo Soares (12 Jan 2015)

I also see but in the lower part of the tank right next to the substrate, wich is something that before i never saw.. today i even saw some Co2 bubbles being sucked by the inflow.

I dont´need to reach this kind of things.. i think you´re wasting Co2 and not dissolving it. That is where your concern should be. 



> Ive increased the CO2 which is making the entire water column look like ive put a giant alkazetzer in it


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## foxfish (12 Jan 2015)

Paulo Soares said:


> I dont´need to reach this kind of things.. i think you´re wasting Co2 and not dissolving it. That is where your concern should be.


I am not sure if you are right Paulo!
The way the atomizer works is by dong exactly that - filling the tank with micro bubbles - so they can contact the plants foliage & be adsorbed by the plant.

Sure you are using a lot of gas that will just disappear into the atmosphere but that is the pay off of using a atomiser but the method works very well.

If you choose to use a reactor there will be no visible bubbles but you will still use a very similar amount of gas to get the same growth rate, you just wont witness the gas dispersing into the atmosphere but it still does!


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## Paulo Soares (12 Jan 2015)

I do believe that with a pretty good diffuser there wont be so much waste...  i see it for my self. 
Of course with a reactor is thee same or more profitable even. 

I´m telling you.. as soon i put the pump i had to reduce the Co2 coming from the FE. Cause after 4 hours my drop was transparent. Not even yellow or so.

I reduce it and got the drop also green lime. So this makes me conclude that before i was pumping a lot to aim the same goal and didn´t reached it. 

I´m only telling my experience.


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## Paulo Soares (12 Jan 2015)

By the way.. look at the ADA set up´s... you see those ADA diffuser pumping just a bit. It´s almost like dust. Not bubbles.


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## sonicninja (12 Jan 2015)

So can someone clear something up for me then. In an ideal world should I be aiming for gin clear water once my CO2 is dissolved? In other words is my CO2 not 'dissolved' if im seeing micro bubbles?


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## foxfish (12 Jan 2015)

No, there are two main ways of feeding Co2 into the water...
One is use micro bubbles that are forced to travel around the tank in an effort to contact the plants & of course, many will dissolve during their travel.
The other is to completely dissolve the bubbles in a separate chamber ( a reactor) & circulate the dissolved gas within the tank.
On top of that, there are certain circumcises where a column of bubbles are introduced into the tank & are more gently circulated around the tank as it appears  in the ADA tanks.
However tying to compare an average hobbyist tank to an ADA professionally attended tank, might be a bit of an ambition rather than a reality!
So there are two main approaches to the same goal, both work!
However it is possible to use other methods if you can get every factor to work in unison.... not so easy.


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## sonicninja (12 Jan 2015)

Thanks Foxfish. When you say 'completely dissolve' does that mean that the bubbles are no longer visible to the naked eye but still remain a gas or are we talking about something i almost certainly wont understand on a microscopic level? Just trying to get my head around all this.


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## foxfish (12 Jan 2015)

Well it is probably something I don't understand either but from a laypersons point of view, 'completely dissolve' means no visible bubbles in the display tank.
I use a reactor as you can see in my signature link, but I would think the most popular method would be an in - line atomiser like the UP model.


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## Sacha (12 Jan 2015)

foxfish said:


> ...certain circumcises...





foxfish said:


> ...certain circumcises...





foxfish said:


> ...circumcises...


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## foxfish (13 Jan 2015)

Hi Sacha, could you please explain why you have quoted the above three times?


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## sonicninja (13 Jan 2015)

LOL!


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## Marcel G (13 Jan 2015)

sonicninja said:


> So can someone clear something up for me then. In an ideal world should I be aiming for gin clear water once my CO2 is dissolved? In other words is my CO2 not 'dissolved' if im seeing micro bubbles?


If you are seeing micro bubbles, then this CO2 gas in these bubbles is of course not dissolved yet in the water. So when the CO2 bubbles dissolve in water, the CO2 remains in the water much longer then the bubbles, and will degass only because the concentration of CO2 in the air vs. water is different. If the CO2 concentration in the air was higher then the one in the water, then the CO2 in the water will never degass, but on the contrary more CO2 from the air would come to the water.

Also the reason why (micro) bubbles of CO2 seem to work better then fully dissolved CO2 in plant growth is that the dissolved CO2 must get over the diffusive boundary layer on leaves, whereas if the CO2 is in the form of bubbles, and these bubbles get catched under the leaves, then the CO2 gas diffuse into the leaves much better.


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## sonicninja (13 Jan 2015)

Thanks ardjuna. I suppose ive always been hesitant of the lemonade look, i instinctively get concerned when i see so much gas that could basically kill my fish.
Last night I did notice some bubbles under the leaves of various plants. I guess it just looks so inefficient, so much gas but the plants use very little of it comparatively.


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## Wisey (13 Jan 2015)

foxfish said:


> Hi Sacha, could you please explain why you have quoted the above three times?



http://www.yourdictionary.com/circumcise


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## Paulo Soares (13 Jan 2015)

Ardjuna,



> Also the reason why (micro) bubbles of CO2 seem to work better then fully dissolved CO2 in plant growth is that the dissolved CO2 must get over the diffusive boundary layer on leaves, whereas if the CO2 is in the form of bubbles, and these bubbles get catched under the leaves, then the CO2 gas diffuse into the leaves much better



Exactly. I think that i did not explain to well my point of view..
What i was trying to say is that the most the bubbles are breaked as soon they got out the diffuser (almost like dust)  the most easy to achieve what was mentioned by Adjuna! Creating those bubbles under the leaves)
And that´s where ADA get´s in cause their diffuser is with no doubt the best to break the bubbles into micro bubbles.

As you might see a lot of other diffuser brands makes quite large bubbles (waste..) and by no means we are taking a large profit of the Co2 in being injected as if it were in a ADA diffuser. The larger the bubbles are more waste we´re gonna have cause they rapidly went to the top. ADA is.. Not even think in comparison.. just forget it.. ADA is the best in this issue. "Do-AQua" is almost there. 

And i´m not gonna facilitate in this matter as Co2 is the KEY to allmost major problems in tanks.
best regards


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## foxfish (13 Jan 2015)

Wisey said:


> foxfish said:
> ↑
> Hi Sacha, could you please explain why you have quoted the above three times?Click to expand...
> http://www.yourdictionary.com/circumcise
> ...


 Oh I thought Sacha was implying ( http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/implying-implying-implications0) I was circumcised three times


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## sonicninja (13 Jan 2015)

...this thread has become confusing. Im guessing its the first CO2/Circumcision thread on this forum.


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## Sacha (13 Jan 2015)

The thread is nothing more than another powerful illusion of the matrix. 

Cheers,


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## foxfish (13 Jan 2015)

You guys seem to have missed the point... when the upper portion of outer skin is removed from the capsulated C02 bubble, the exposed, and now more sensitive area, then becomes more likely or able to release the interior contents  of the main body.
This skin removing process  is achieved via my latest reactor technology & is commonly termed  as gas circumcision.  
Cheers.


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## sonicninja (13 Jan 2015)

It took me 2 reads to know what that was about. Today has been long! 


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