# Bank Charges?



## PM

I just got charged Â£25 for being past my limit by Â£60

I thought it was illegal now, does anyone know what's going on?   

Thanks again HSBC


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## Mark Evans

not sure, its unauthorised borrowing mate, it stinks but they can do it.when ever you think your near your limit just up your overdraft limit so you dont get stung. then lower it again when your finacialy better off.


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## nickyc

PM said:
			
		

> I thought it was illegal now, does anyone know what's going on?



Have a look on www.moneysavingexpert.com


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## a1Matt

They are allowed to charge you a fee.  It is supposed to be 'reasonable'  though.

Personally I'd contest it as not being reasonable.  If you don't go over your limit very often there is a good chance they will refund it.


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## howardish

I work for a bank quite heavily involved in the charges case *cough*LTSB*cough* (though not directly with the charges side of things) banks can charge for going overdrawn past your limit..this should all have been laid out at the start when you open the account...
however, the charge should be reasonalble (a Â£25 charge for a couple of quid IMO isnt!)
and also, yes if you havent done it before just ask, say you werent aware of the charge and they are more than likely to refund it.
Also, ask nicely..sounds stupid but the moodier you are the less likely they are to agree to refund it.

HTH
Howard


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## GreenNeedle

The current situation is that the Banks lost the first case at which point of course they appealed so it is all now in limbo until the second stage is done.

They are allowed to charge a fee but the case is all about proving that it doesnt cost Â£X to administer the letters and control the account as it is mostly automated.

Most people who have claimed have then been told go to court at which point the case gets so far and is then stayed pending the result of the high court case.

Check out the threads on consumeractiongroup.co.uk

Some people have been successful though because you can appeal against your case on grounds of hardship (proper hardship not short for a week or 2. lol) at which point the banks try and make a deal quick because they dont want to set a precedent before this case finishes as it would mean admitting fault.  They call it a 'goodwill gesture'. lol

Can you tell I have been researching. he, he.

AC


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## a1Matt

howardish said:
			
		

> Also, ask nicely..sounds stupid but the moodier you are the less likely they are to agree to refund it.



Good general rule of thumb that one - it's nice to be nice.  I have found you nearly always get further when being nice


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## aaronnorth

my aunty got charged Â£16 for Â£1 over


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## JamesC

I'm sure Martin Lewis said the other day that anything over Â£15 is considered unreasonable.

James


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## howardish

a1Matt said:
			
		

> howardish said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, ask nicely..sounds stupid but the moodier you are the less likely they are to agree to refund it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good general rule of thumb that one - it's nice to be nice.  I have found you nearly always get further when being nice
Click to expand...


If only the majority of my customers realised that


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## GreenNeedle

The insider that is being used by the claimants suggests it costs in the region of 30p for the administration and this is what the whole case is based around!!!!

The amount overdrawn doesnt matter for this case as it is the charge that is being challenged.  Overdraft interest covers the mount overdrawn. Its just the one off charge for going overdrawn which costs the bank the same amount in 'admin' wether you are 1p over or Â£1000.  Bad debts and non payers is a different matter entirely.

AC


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## Superman

If you go over your overdraft limit then you should be charged - simple as.
Sometimes its a mistake or a miscalculation on your side - tough luck.
I've had it, paid it - couldn't be bothered to kick up a fuss - then got it refunded as the bank saw it was something of a one off.
It's in the T&Cs of the accounts so you've agreed to it.
Can't believe people that there might be a chance that people will get their money back.


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## Mark Evans

Superman said:
			
		

> If you go over your overdraft limit then you should be charged - simple as.
> Sometimes its a mistake or a miscalculation on your side - tough luck.
> I've had it, paid it - couldn't be bothered to kick up a fuss - then got it refunded as the bank saw it was something of a one off.
> It's in the T&Cs of the accounts so you've agreed to it.
> Can't believe people that there might be a chance that people will get their money back.



kinda what i was thinking but didn't want to say, management of accounts is key, i used to end up in right financial messes, until i took control and managed my accounts better. never looked back since.if it looks like your going to go into unauthorised overdraft, just up the level.


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## GreenNeedle

People arent 'thinking' they will get their money back.  they already are, albeit the ones that can claim hardship caused to get their cases through the staying period.

If you check the contract you initially signed with a bank it probably states 'admin fee' rather than the amount to be charged and with all things it is being disputed wether a company should be allowed to charge that amount for an automated process.  Especially as they often charge for being overdrawn when you actually weren't!!!

If you are in the situation where you have a direct debit coming out tomorrow.  You haven't enough money in your account to cover it.  Not a problem because tomorrow is pay day.
You are paid via BACS (automated) you are charged via direct debit (Automated)  They both automatically process at midnight (or 2am for some banks)
Your conclusion and mine should be that you weren't overdrawn.  Wrong.  Most banks make sure they make payments before they receive money and then charge you for being overdrawn when you weren't as the outgoing and income both happened at the same millisecond automatically.  This is also being disputed.
I don't mind paying a reasonable amount if I default in my bank but were I to go overdrawn and then be charged a fee on top of interest when I had not defaulted before and the bank has had my money in good faith to do with as they please making money on the markets then I would rightly feel peeved.

You are the lucky one Clark.  Not many people get their charges back by asking.  In fact if you look at the forums on this subject then there are some unbelievably terrible practices and responses from the banks including at the minute recalling overdrafts with one months notice (this is happening a lot at the moment)

One instance I read was that someone had a Â£500 agreed overdraft which they used and never went past, paid the interest etc.  The bank sent a letter saying they were withdrawing the overdraft 1 month from the letter.  The person rang the bank to say they couldn't afford to pay it back that quickly and guess what.  When their week's pay went in they couldn't get at it.  The bank had frozen all transactions, refusing to pay direct debits and then charging 'commission'.  This is illegal and this case was sorted fairly quickly with the bank deciding against being found out in court and making a 'goodwill' gesture of compensation on top of refunding the 'commissions'. refunding the direct debit payee's charges and reinstating the overdraft with an agreement to repay it monthly for a year.

There are thousands of cases like this and I have been hit by a couple this year just the same.  Its been a bad year but the banks make a rod for their own backs and have got away with it for too long.

AC


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## GreenNeedle

The other one that people can fight is when a debt collection agency drops one of those threatening letters through your letterbox saying they are chasing payment of a company you were using.

This is illegal as first the company you owed the money to have to send you a letter of assignment to tell you that they have passed the debt onto a different company.

You can refuse to pay this debt collection agency until you have this and are legally entitled to do it.  If not anyone could send you a letter asking for money that you owed to someone else.

If they take you to court for non payment when you have not received this letter of assignment then your solicitor only needs to point this out and the case will be thrown out!!

Bad practices everywhere all in the name of the mighty dollar.

AC


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## Superman

The matter is that the banks are refunding the money because people are kicking up a fuss and the small amounts mean that is doesn't warrant a legal challenge in each case. So thats why the test case with all the banks together was brought on.

Whilst I don't have any problem with people who are hard up getting assistance from the bank to repay, I've seen/heard cases that those who's own fault has caused the financial problems getting away with it in this way. 

I've been reviewing certain arrears management policy today at work and noticed how "softly softly" banks are now cos they're scared of getting people to repay the money they owe - money which they can easily repay, but are getting round things by saying the right things. I would hate to be in arrears but then that's a different story, I must be old fashioned.

I don't blame people asking for their money back, if they want it back and can get it fair play. I just think it's wrong. Similar to everything being totally politically correct.

I must sound like an old grump.


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## GreenNeedle

> The matter is that the banks are refunding the money because people are kicking up a fuss and the small amounts mean that is doesn't warrant a legal challenge in each case. So thats why the test case with all the banks together was brought on.



They are refunding the money because they have lost the first case and are scared now of the hardship cases that can go to court setting a precedent.  Thats why they are refunding.  they are on the run and holding onto as much money as they can earning as much as they can off of it until the day when they do lose the second stage at which point they know the flood gates will be opened.  If they hadn't been so heavy handed and 'pompous' with their ridiculous charges to begin with then they wouldn't have had this problem but money breeds greed and contempt.

If you think its wrong for people to want money back that is rightfully theirs (and soon to be legally proven that it was illegally taken) then thats your choice and yours to make.

As for banks being soft then you must have some superb experiences with banks.  I have had 2 bank accounts in my life.  both rank and both charged me for things that were unchargeable (when I wasnt overdrawn charging me overdraft fees etc) as well as things that were 'in the t&C when even if you read the T&C several times there is no amount stated.

Each to their own and I hope your bank continues to please you.  I know I wish mine would. lol

I was just answering the first post really as the guy asked if it was illegal.  The answer to the first question is no it is not illegal but it could (and probably will) be illegal soon.  The link is there as there is a full guide of what you can claim, how to do it, how much interest to claim for the time periods and the whole process of going through the small claims court etc.  (You can claim the last 6 years of bank charges!!!)

p.s. the "small amounts" that have been successful on that particular advice forum I linked to so far totals Â£16,595,128 from 9717 successful cases!!!  Tiny little pittence I'd call that. lol and all the cases that are 'stayed' in the courts are yet to come!!!

AC


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## Joecoral

howardish said:
			
		

> a1Matt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> howardish said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, ask nicely..sounds stupid but the moodier you are the less likely they are to agree to refund it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good general rule of thumb that one - it's nice to be nice.  I have found you nearly always get further when being nice
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If only the majority of my customers realised that
Click to expand...


I'll second that !


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## hellohefalump

What a WUNCH OF BANKERS!!!       

I got nearly a grand back from Nationwide    early last year      

What happened was... it was my fault initially.  I didn't put a cheque in on time because I forgot to, and then all my direct debits went out and bounced.  So I went to the bank, and said 'I'll pay one of the charges if you let me off the rest, it was a mistake... etc etc' and they refused.  So then I had no choice.  I was heavily pregnant (so no job), and even after I cancelled all the direct debits they were still charging me Â£25 every month for my unortherised overdraft.  So I took them to court, for all my charges in the last six years (quite a lot) plus 8% on top for interest and Â£80 court costs.

But that was before they starting holding applications because they were doing a trial court case.


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## squiggley

Looks like the banks have drawn even!!

http://www.fool.co.uk/news/your-mon...ank-charges-case.aspx?source=uemfoleml0010038


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## GreenNeedle

Funny how the weekend the government takes control of the banking system becoming shareholders in effect, the judge finally rules in the bank's favour.

I don't particularly care any more.  I am out of work again so I am going to declare myself bankrupt.

They can't repossess the car because it has been my wife's since last year and she requires it to do her job (I signed it over to her)
They can't repossess my computer (I need it to search for work)
They can't repossess any of my white goods (I have children and therefore they are 'necessary' to the well fare of my children)
They can have 1 of my 2 tellys and sell it for a couple of hundred quid.  The other Â£10k is lost to them.

So stuff the lot.  I will keep everything and this idiot government can weigh up what I have paid into the system and never had returned. lol

AC


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## squiggley

My thought exactly.

It's not exactly the best time for them to repay the expect 9million(billion??)



			
				SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> Funny how the weekend the government takes control of the banking system becoming shareholders in effect, the judge finally rules in the bank's favour.
> 
> 
> AC


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## GreenNeedle

they've already repaid over 16 million.  I think the estimated amount 'stayed' in the court cases ads up to many many billions!!!

AC


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## Egmel

hellohefalump said:
			
		

> What a WUNCH OF BANKERS!!!
> 
> I got nearly a grand back from Nationwide    early last year
> 
> What happened was... it was my fault initially.  I didn't put a cheque in on time because I forgot to, and then all my direct debits went out and bounced.  So I went to the bank, and said 'I'll pay one of the charges if you let me off the rest, it was a mistake... etc etc' and they refused.  So then I had no choice.  I was heavily pregnant (so no job), and even after I cancelled all the direct debits they were still charging me Â£25 every month for my unortherised overdraft.  So I took them to court, for all my charges in the last six years (quite a lot) plus 8% on top for interest and Â£80 court costs.
> 
> But that was before they starting holding applications because they were doing a trial court case.


Hmmm, as a Nationwide user who doesn't go over her authorised overdraft I find this a little annoying.

I have had one cheque bounce in my entire life and it was when I was 17, I learnt my lesson, Nationwide were great, took pity on me and refunded me the Â£25 and it didn't happen again.

While I accept that it's more difficult to get to the bank and pay in a cheque when you're heavily pregnant, if that is what you need to do to cover your outgoings then that's what you should do, or ask someone to do for you.

Now maybe it's just me but I don't have all my direct debits going out on one day, that's like keeping all your eggs in one basket, I spread them over the first couple of weeks after my pay goes in.  That way if something goes wrong with my pay arriving (as it did at the beginning of this month) I don't find myself trying to pay all my outgoings with nothing.  So how long did it take you to notice that you had forgotten to pay in the cheque, before you phoned the bank and explained what had happened?

To compound all this, the fact that you have paid "quite a lot" in charges over the last 6 years it suggests that this isn't the first time this sort of thing has happened.

So while I do sympathise with your predicament, and I agree that the charges are too steep for the events, I find it galling that you stand there and laugh about it.  Especially when you know as well as I do that Nationwide are a building society and the money you've got back from them isn't coming out of the pockets of big bankers in London but is instead affecting the costs of banking for people like myself who have learnt to manage their money.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that banking charges are the stick to the carrot of interest on credit.  They are there not just to get money back for the banks but also to encourage people to look after their money better.  There will always be cases where people should be excused but at some point you need to ask yourself why you are always incurring these charges and what you can do about it to stop it happening.

And before anyone starts saying that it's ok for people with money to say these charges are fair, I am a research student and my take-home grant is near equivalent to the take-home salary of someone working full time on the minimum wage.  I don't claim any benefits and the only discount I get that's worth mentioning is paying no council tax.  I also live in one of the most expensive areas of the country and I have an active social life, I would by no means say that I am struggling to survive on the money I 'earn'.

Rant over and I hope I haven't offended anyone too much, I just want to see a bit more personal responsibility in this world.


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## GreenNeedle

Sorry I disagree.  If you look at most bank's balance sheets they are tending to abouse the charges system to make themselves profit because on savings accounts they are nowadays having to compete by giving higher interest rates.

20 years ago they made a much larger profit from the gap between their interest rate and the underlying interest rate the government/BofE set whereas now they have to be much closer or they lose all their money.

The question isn't should you get charged for going overdrawn.  the question is when something is automated and costs in the region of 30p to process (automated admin) then how can they justify a Â£30 charge.

This is worsened when they have openly admitted that payments out of account are made on the stroke of midnight whereas payments in are done much later.  This is them making sure they catch a few more and make some more profit.

In summary.  Yes charge people for going overdrawn.  Yes charge them interest on the amount they go overdrawn.  But don't take the p*** by charging Â£30 for 30p admin work (done by an automated franking machine) and don't charge Â£30 for 0p work when your automated system refuses to pay a DD and automatically sends out an e-mail.

AC


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## Themuleous

Cant say I care either way, but lets end this topic?  We're all here due to an interest in aquariums.  Topics like this can ruin forums. We'd all be worse of it that happened to UKAPS 

Sam


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## JamesC

Agreed. This topic is going nowhere now.

Closed


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