# NilocG powdered fert product discussion



## Sanderguy777 (8 Jan 2021)

Ok, so I know this has probably been discussed before, but I need advice on what fert package to pick up from NilocG. 
I have a 10g, a 55g, and a 60g tank. They all have some spattering of java moss, Christmas moss, java fern, anubius, amazon sword, and pogostemin stollatus octopus (the 55g has an unidentified sword, and some stemmed plant I like, but the salesman had no idea what it was LOL). All 3 tanks are planted about the same, but the 10g and 55g only recently got planted (2 months, and 1 month ago, respectively).

The issues are in the 60g. All of this started about 3 weeks, or so, ago, after I dosed Feran 2 for a sick platy, not sure if that was the cause or not. That was 2 or 3 50% WCs ago.

The anubius. Older leaves have holes and black spots/algae looking stuff on them. The black areas of the leaves eventually disappear and leave holes. Lately, new leaves look too light green, like almost yellow. I think they green up to the color of the old ones, but they look too light for a week or so before that. No leaves died exactly, but I usually snip them off if they are like half gone (which hasn't happened in months).

Java ferns. Same things. Black to holes, and really light green new leaves. Their old leaves DO die and fall off. Most of the mass of my large one is gone from a large die off of leaves a week or so ago)

Java and Christmas moss. Originally really dense and taking over, now thin and seeming not to grow as much. 

Swords (specifically in the 60g, the one in the 55g is brand new, and doing fine so far). Dying off. leaves get 4" long, thin out to clear, then just die off. New leaves go up looking fine, then melt away. I think this is because I don't have any root tabs (I ordered them, but they haven't arrived), but I don't know if they NEED them, or just prefer them to column feeding. 

Pogostemin. Massive die off. Bare stems up to 3" or 4" from the top of the plant, stunted growth (ie no growth). 

Hair or string algae, mostly on the mosses. but also starting on the ferns and anubius. 

I think the issue was/is the Furan 2, but also a shortage of potassium (which from this video () looks to me like the black/holey symptoms on the java ferns and anubius). 

The solution: I think that the Easy Green I have been using, isn't helping, and since I am a poor college student, I want to start using dry ferts mixed into distilled water when the Easy Green is gone. I want to get NilocG ferts, but all the dosing stuff and package names are confusing me. The PPS PRO looks to be the most thorough, but I don't know what I NEED vs what I don't need. 
I'm sorry this is so long, and round about, but I wanted to give as much info as possible.


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## Sanderguy777 (8 Jan 2021)

60g plants


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## Sanderguy777 (8 Jan 2021)

10g


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## Sanderguy777 (8 Jan 2021)

55g (new set up. Anubius, and pogostemin are from 60g. Everything else is new plants, or old plastic ones).

Again, sorry for the long photo essays, just want to show what is going on.


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## Sanderguy777 (10 Jan 2021)

bump


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## Sarpijk (10 Jan 2021)

Hi, most of the plants I see are fake. You have few plants I would not bother with dry salts. I doubt easy green is the problem although I have not used it but any all inclusive liquid fert should.be enough. 

The black holes on older leaves are to be expected at some point. As lond as new leaves look healthy it should be ok.

The Furan drug must have causes an imbalance on your tank make sure you keep up with water change schedule.

As a side note in case you ever decide to rescape look into getting a good aquasoil type subsample or look into dirted tanks if you want to keep the cost low. I would ditch the fake plants and use as many real plants possible. The contribution of plants to a healthy tank is phenomenal.


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## dw1305 (10 Jan 2021)

Hi all,
<"Difficult to say from the photos">, but I'm going to assume you have hard water? and that makes iron (Fe) deficiency more likely. Have a look at @Craig Matthews , <"FeEDDHA"> thread.

cheers Darrel


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## Sanderguy777 (15 Jan 2021)

Sorry for the late reply.


Sarpijk said:


> Hi, most of the plants I see are fake. You have few plants I would not bother with dry salts. I doubt easy green is the problem although I have not used it but any all inclusive liquid fert should.be enough.
> 
> The black holes on older leaves are to be expected at some point. As lond as new leaves look healthy it should be ok.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I plan to upgrade the plastic plants in the 55g, to real ones asap, but in the mean time, I like the look of the tank being full. 
Good to know about the black spots. I originally thought it was so.e sort of algae, but then I heard about potassium deficiency, and thought it might be that. 
Here is a photo of an anubius in the 55g (the only tank with any fake plants). There are only about 3 leaves without the black stuff, they are new, but I wouldn't think that half the plant leaves are dying off (if I understand you correctly, you are saying that the black spots and then holes, are the leaves reaching the end of their lives?)
The weird thing is that the black fringes at least, look fuzzy. Like really black BBA. I have bba on some logs into that tank (that should be in some of the photos), but it is about ½" long, whereas the stuff on the leaves is less than 1/16" long...








dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> <"Difficult to say from the photos">, but I'm going to assume you have hard water? and that makes iron (Fe) deficiency more likely. Have a look at @Craig Matthews , <"FeEDDHA"> thread.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Yes, my water is pretty hard. 300ppm gH and 180ppm kH. Also, something around 8pH. 
I haven't read the article yet, but I will toady. (I totally forgot this thread. Oops🤪)

So for ferts, I plan on just getting this (Amazon product).
Will that work, or do I need to add an iron supplement to that? (I heard that either npk, or csm+b was mostly iron and that adding more was a waste of money without high light, co2 injection, and plants that I want to look super red. (I did pick up some limnophilia aromatica, do I need iron for that?)
Thanks


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## Sanderguy777 (16 Jan 2021)

Ok, so I read through about half of the linked forum on iron. WOW, there is a TON of info there!
Based on the part I read (and what I understood), I think that the EDDHA (or is it eddTa?) is better for my >pH 7.6 water. (I tested today, and about 6 days after I did a 25% WC on the 60g, I get 7.6 on my API test tube. I admit that I used my Tetra test strips to get a 7.8 reading, so I expect that I need the high range API kit.)
Do you think I need to dose iron? ( I will try to finish the other thread tomorrow, but good grief there is a ton of high end reading LOL)

I found this on a Fishlore thread (about a 30g tank about 12" high)

"Here is Tropica's guide:

Low light: 10-20 lumens per litre
Medium light: 20-40 lumens per litre
High light: 40< lumens per litre

Low light: 0.25-0.5 W per litre
Medium light: 0.5-1.0W per litre
High light: 1.0< W per litre"

Based on that info, since I have this light ( think. If not, it is really similar, like 5000k or 3500 lumens), I have a "high light tank." (my light is 3100 lumens/60g=51.67 lumens per gallon).
Does that info even apply, or is it something like the watts per gallon, where it is an outdated, inaccurate estimate? I don't have a PAR meter, so I don't have any idea what my light is like by the time it goes through the 6" of air to the glass top, through the top, through the 18" of water to the substrate...)


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## Zeus. (16 Jan 2021)

Having recently added the NilocG Thrive range of 'All In One' of fertilizers in solution to the IFC calculator , I have to admit for what they contain they are one of the best Value for money commercial ferts on the market ATM. I would imagine the DIY fert salt range to follow in the same value for money.


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## Sanderguy777 (16 Jan 2021)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, <"Plant blindness">.
> 
> In aquarium terms plants are the gift that keeps on giving, but it is a struggle trying to persuade people that plants are net oxygen producers, massively increase nitrification potential etc.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Reading through page 2 (I'm a super slow reader, and all the chemistry doesn't help my [hopefully future] historian brain lol). I had no idea that plants increased nitrification. I knew they used up nitrates and ammonium, but they apparently help BB process more ammonia or faster? Or am I misunderstanding, and the plants are just taking the nitrates up, and thus extending the nitrification into another phase?


Zeus. said:


> Having recently added the NilocG Thrive range of 'All In One' of fertilizers in solution to the IFC calculator , I have to admit for what they contain they are one of the best Value for money commercial ferts on the market ATM. I would imagine the DIY fert salt range to follow in the same value for money.


Based on my lights and water parameters, would the basic NPK/CSB+B be enough  or should I get into the Fe stuff too (and which chelator should I use? Eddha or dtpa?) 

I did a 25% WC on the 60g today took out the carbon, and added two small java fern windblown, and some limnophilia aromatica (I couldn't wait lol)


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## dw1305 (16 Jan 2021)

Hi all,


Sanderguy777 said:


> I had no idea that plants increased nitrification. I knew they used up nitrates and ammonium, but they apparently help BB process more ammonia or faster?


I've got a bit more reading for you I'm afraid. There isn't <"a single answer">, it is a mixture of factors.

The plants themselves take up ammonium (NH4+), nitrite (NO2-) and nitrate (NO3-), Any ammonium that doesn't enter <"microbial nitrification"> reduces the <"Biochemical Oxygen Demand"> (BOD), and the most likely limiting factor for <"nitrification is oxygen">.
Plants are <"massively net oxygen producers">. The 21% oxygen in our atmosphere is the <"excess oxygen produced by photosynthesis">. 
Plants increase the volume of sites where <"nitrification can occur">. Have a look at <"Radial Oygen Loss"> from  <"Journal is it legit...">. The interactions in the rhizosphere are much more complex than it might appear at first sight, with plants changing the conditions to ones that favour <"the growth of preferred microbes">.
cheers Darrel


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## Sanderguy777 (17 Jan 2021)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I've got a bit more reading for you I'm afraid. There isn't <"a single answer">, it is a mixture of factors.
> 
> ...


You remind me of my professors LOL. Good info though!
For plants in my tank, will running a 4 air stones off a large air pump hurt anything? The oxygen should help the fish, but would the co2 in the bubbles dissolve into the water, or get exchanged at the surface for oxygen? I don't dose CO2, so it won't be wasting money exchanging the "air" for liquid CO2. But will there be more or less CO2 in the water from the bubbles, compared to not running the air stones? 
(Alita al-6a. A massively powerful diaphragm pump, at least compared to the cheapo ones from Tetra and Top Fin)


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## Sanderguy777 (17 Jan 2021)

I am sorry for all the questions.


Craig Matthews said:


> Interesting, so if EDTA is bound by purigen then higher more complex chelates, DTPA and of course eddha are most certainly bound by purigen. That confirms Zeus's thoughts. If after regeneration the purigen releases chloromines that's potentially becoming toxic to live stock?


Ok, so I am getting SUPER confused on the acronyms of the chelates. I think I want to use one that is chelated with EDDHA. 

Based on this:


FishWorks said:


> So I think DTPA is a great chelator if you can bring your PH below 7.5 which is an easily done with CO2 injection.
> My Hi-Light Tank for example, my water parameters 8.1 PH, 4 KH, 4 GH. After CO2 injection, I come down to 7.1 PH and I have about 90% FE DTPA remaining. Thinking about those numbers, then up to 8.5 PH, FE DTPA is still pretty good. Craig comes down from 8.1 PH to 7.3


I shouldn't use an iron supplement that uses DTPA as a chelator, since I don't dose CO2, and my water is basically liquid rock.

And based on this:


dw1305 said:


> Yes. The more efficient the chelator is the more likely it is to be bound by the purigen. In very hard water (where you would be more likely to FeEDDHA) any iron (Fe++(+)) ions will be mopped up pretty quickly by carbonate (HCO3-), hydroxide (OH-) or phosphate (PO4---) anions and will form insoluble compounds.


I gather that FeEDDHA is what I need for my water. Does EDDHA have a weaker bond with the iron ions? (I think I remember that iron ions are what plants use, correct?)

Ok, so I finished the FeEDDHA thread. TONS of great info, and really informative. Thanks Darrel.


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## veerserif (19 Jan 2021)

For what it's worth, I am currently DIYing ferts (a clone of Easy Green at double-dosage, in fact) using NilocG dry salts. My water is quite soft, so I use KNO3 + KH2PO4 + CSM+B along with the GH booster. I run a low light, non-CO2-injected tank and quite honestly am too tired to bother reading up about all these iron chelates, so I just mix everything into an all-in-one solution using CSM+B as my primary Fe source (I also add ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate to the mix). I'm not wholly convinced my plants require so much iron that I need to get a whole separate bag of the stuff for them. Plus, you say the new growth looks fine and it's the old growth that's dying? Iron's immobile so you should be seeing unhealthy _new_ growth if they were iron deficient.

I find root tabs a helpful additional supplement, and the NilocG tabs are pretty cheap so I throw those in too. The fuzzy black edges on your anubias' older leaves I'd call proto-BBA. Give it another couple weeks and it'll probably form into identifiable BBA, I'm dealing with something similar in my tank.


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## Sanderguy777 (19 Jan 2021)

veerserif said:


> For what it's worth, I am currently DIYing ferts (a clone of Easy Green at double-dosage, in fact) using NilocG dry salts. My water is quite soft, so I use KNO3 + KH2PO4 + CSM+B along with the GH booster. I run a low light, non-CO2-injected tank and quite honestly am too tired to bother reading up about all these iron chelates, so I just mix everything into an all-in-one solution using CSM+B as my primary Fe source (I also add ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate to the mix). I'm not wholly convinced my plants require so much iron that I need to get a whole separate bag of the stuff for them. Plus, you say the new growth looks fine and it's the old growth that's dying? Iron's immobile so you should be seeing unhealthy _new_ growth if they were iron deficient.
> 
> I find root tabs a helpful additional supplement, and the NilocG tabs are pretty cheap so I throw those in too. The fuzzy black edges on your anubias' older leaves I'd call proto-BBA. Give it another couple weeks and it'll probably form into identifiable BBA, I'm dealing with something similar in my tank.


From what I hear, the micros and macros need to be separate because they react to each other. So you might be dosing both, but only some of the nutrients are actually plant available by the time it enters the tank. (I have heard that on several places, but that may be water or brand specific, I don't know). 
But I do get your point, and you're probably right about the iron, so I'll just get the basic NPK and CSM+B. 

Are the Niloc tabs NOT root tabs? I thought they were just a different type of root tabs...
I thought the black edges was BBA too, but it went away after a 5 day lights out period, and hasn't been back till the "Great Die Off of 2020." I guess it still could be, but I thought it was tougher than that. (is there anything I can do to kill it other than hydrogen peroxide?


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## veerserif (20 Jan 2021)

Sanderguy777 said:


> From what I hear, the micros and macros need to be separate because they react to each other.


The ascorbic acid acidifies the DIY solution so they don't react -  you can tell it's working when there's no precipitate in the bottle. So my order of mixing is distilled water > ascorbic acid > everything else. Potassium sorbate's also in there as a preservative, and just to be certain, I store my DIY fert mix in the fridge.


Sanderguy777 said:


> Are the Niloc tabs NOT root tabs? I thought they were just a different type of root tabs...


They are, my bad! They are root tabs.


Sanderguy777 said:


> I thought the black edges was BBA too, but it went away after a 5 day lights out period, and hasn't been back till the "Great Die Off of 2020." I guess it still could be, but I thought it was tougher than that. (is there anything I can do to kill it other than hydrogen peroxide?


Huh. Well, I spot-dose liquid carbon for the most stubborn patches, and that generally gets me something inside of a week. I'll be interested to see how your tank's situation changes.


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## Sanderguy777 (27 Feb 2021)

Ok, so I finally got the NilocG fert package (just the basic NPK and CSM+B) and their root tabs as well. I have been using a lot of their root tabs and I think that they are WAY better than the API ones I tried. I don't like that they float, but they are a lot less of an issue than the reviews claim, and, maybe I'm just lucky, but I haven't had any dissolve before I could get them into the substrate.

So, I usually have my tanks fluctuate between 40 and 60ppm nitrates, and then do a WC. I don't have a set schedule because of school.
Also, my water is about 8ph, 180kh, 300gh. Based on those numbers, and my admittedly suboptimal WC system, should I go with a clean 1/3 EI dose, of ALL of the chemicals in the package I got from Niloc (KNO3, CSM+B, K2SO4, KH2PO4) or just go with the duckweed index, or just start off with the CSM+B, and add to that regimen as I see deficiencies?

Edit: forgot to say that I DON'T have squirt bottles. I think for now I am just going to use 50ml water bottles, and use a syringe for the actual dosing. Unless there is a cheap option on amazon for measured pump bottles.


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