# A constant fight



## SumoC (25 May 2020)

Hi folks,

Another cry for help I'm afraid.  I've had this planted aquarium going for 18 months now but it's never really settled down,  a couple of times I've thought it had but then it's just gone all wrong again a few weeks later.  During it's time I've certainly had brown hair algae, BBA, cyanobacteria, green spot algae - right now I seem to be free of brown hair stuff and low on green spot but the others are having fun.  I've messed about with just about everything (based on reading around the topic), but over the last couple of months I've gone back to 'the rules' and I'm still getting nowhere.  So here I am laying it out before you for your help - please help me get my sanity back!  I'm giving this one last shot before I go bogwood and blackwater....

Tank: 6ftx2ftx18" (appx 510 litres)
Filter: Eheim Pro 3 1200XL filter, two inlets at the same end of the aquarium, outlet through spray bar whole length of the aquarium, flow reaches front glass
Heater: Hydor inline heater, 28 degrees (this is nominally for discus, but they're all on holiday whilst I sort this lot out)
Substrate: ADA Amazonia (no other ADA additives)
Ferts: EI using aquariumplantfood.co.uk EI salts at their recommended doses (Macro - 4tsp nitrate, 1tsp phosphate, 6tsp sulphate per 500ml water, 100ml dosed every other day; Micro 1tsp chelated trace elements per 500ml water, 100ml dosed every other day).  Dosed using a Jecod pump so no rest days
CO2: pressurised CO2 with in line atomiser from 1 hours before lights on to 1 hour before lights off, drop checker green
Lighting: 3x Kessil 160WE Tuna Sun, set at 13.00 5%; 14.00 100%; 20.00 100%; 21.00 5%; 21.10 off (so effective photoperiod 6 hours)
Stocking: 100 black neon tetra, 60(ish) amano shrimp, 40 nerite snails (previously 20 otos but they got a bit too nippy at the discus)
WCs: 50% weekly
Deep filter clean at first water change of the month
Photos: Taken this afternoon - sorry about the state of the glass! (enthusiasm has waned over the last few weeks but is ready to go again! (kept up WCs just not stringent algae removal, to be honest I was bored of that....))

I had a nice selection of plants in there a year or so back but with each algae I've removed the afflicted plants.  I'm left with a good covering of sagittaria subulata (I let that go to try to outcompete the algae...no joy), a sprig of heteranthera zosterifolia, a few stems of hygrophila 53B in various stages of fight with algae, some java fern which is currently arguing with cyanobacteria and an occasional cryptocoryne leaf.  I'd like to get back to a lower carpet (eleocharis acicularis mini or micranthemum monte carlo), and a nice variety of plants, just a nice aquascape really - this has eluded me completely since set up!

I'd really welcome your input, a step by step to get me on the straight and narrow would be brilliant.  I'm happy to turn it into a weekly photo journal if you'd like to see it as we go.

Thanks in advance for your help.
Paul


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## Sammy Islam (25 May 2020)

I'm no expert but i can probably help a little. From the info you have given i would think:
1) 1 filter is not enough to get proper circulation around a 500l tank, i would add a strong power head of some sorts, check out @Zeus.  Journal for some ideas. 
2) co2 needs to come on a lot earlier, probably 3 hours before lights come on. Getting co2 dissolved and distrubuted around a 500l tank is going to be difficult, especially at substrate level. 
3) most algae will not go away, you have to battle it by removing effected plants/leaves, scrubbing hardscape and spot dosing excel/easy carbo.


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## SumoC (26 May 2020)

Thanks Sammy, really helpful.  Thanks for the direction to Zeus' journal - what an incredible setup!

I'll have to think carefully about equipment and flow for discus....more reading to do I think!   I'm well up for an ongoing 'algae maintenance' but it was definitely a losing battle until now...

Thanks again


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## Sammy Islam (26 May 2020)

There's definitely a lot of continous reading to do, i spend a lot of time reading old threads everywhere i can. 

Fighting algae is tough, especially BBA and staghorn. Both co2 and flow related algae. I would start by removing any wood and scrubbing the BBA off, i would also soak them in a storage container (if they fit) with some excel/easy carbo for an hour and that should kill off any remaining BBA. 

I would hoover the substrate heavily and do bigger water changes, atleast 50% a week but i get that having discus in the tank (later on) will determine how much water you can remove - i do 80% water change on my tank every week. I would also trim off the worst effected leaves of the plants and spot dose the rest if it's manageable.


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## SumoC (26 May 2020)

Grand, so here is the plan....

1. Leave the mess for now....increase CO2 to 3 hours before lights on
2. Order 2 Hydor Koralia 5000 pumps (I can't quite stretch to the Gyre...)
3. When they arrive go for a fresh start, wood out, scrub, leave in bath with liquid carbon, heavy trim and gravel vac, restore wood, install pumps, one top left, one bottom right.
4. Watch the magic happen

Right?


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## Sammy Islam (26 May 2020)

SumoC said:


> Grand, so here is the plan....
> 
> 1. Leave the mess for now....increase CO2 to 3 hours before lights on
> 2. Order 2 Hydor Koralia 5000 pumps (I can't quite stretch to the Gyre...)
> ...



Yes and extra water changes if you can. I would lower lighting levels if they are on 100% for a month until you think things are better. Essentially you have too much light, not enough co2 + flow and maybe not enough ferts depending on your dosing. So to be able to use your lights at 100% for around 6-7 hours a day you need to meet the other demands that your lights are dictating.


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## SumoC (4 Jan 2022)

Hi all,
Almost two years since I shouted for help on this tank, that's gotta be a good thing, right?!  Thanks to the above advice things got better, semi settled but an occasional tinker. A few months ago I noticed a bit of a shrimp genocide, did a bit of reading around and identified the likely culprit as variable CO2 which would tie in with a good outbreak of BBA.  I got that under control and have got a good way through the BBA removal, which isn't regrowing once removed, and I'm finding no more ex-shrimp.  Info now...

Tank: 6ftx2ftx18" (appx 510 litres)
Filter: Eheim Pro 3 1200XL filter, two inlets at the same end of the aquarium, one outlet directed down length of aquarium.
Flow: Two Hydro Koralia G3 5000, one above CO2 diffuser blowing across the carpet away from filter intakes one upper right directed back towards filter intakes
Heater: Hydor inline heater, 27 degrees
Substrate: ADA Amazonia (no other ADA additives)
Ferts: EI using aquariumplantfood.co.uk EI salts currently at 1.25x recommended doses, dosed using a Jecod pump so no rest days
CO2: pressurised CO2 with in line atomiser from 08.00 until 19.30 drop checker green/yellow all lit hours, pH appx 6.3 at lights on, 6.15 at CO2 off, 6.3 at lights off.  (pH 7.00 from the tap, very hard water)
Lighting: 3x Kessil 160WE Tuna Sun, set at 12.00 5%; 13.00 100%; 20.00 100%; 21.00 5%; 21.10 off
Stocking: 13 discus, 100 black neon tetra, army of amano shrimp and nerite snails, MTS galore (could have killed someone when they rode in on a plant!)
WCs: 50% weekly, filter maintenance monthly

Now here's the fun bit. Recently all settled after what I thought were CO2 challenges, I tore up the foreground Sagittaria and replaced with micranthemum Monte Carlo which has taken nicely, started to broaden my staurogyne repens which had be very slow growing when surrounded by sagittaria but has been much quicker since and new cuttings have taken well, the anubias are all doing well aside some brown dust algae, existing crypts are doing well and new ones seem to be setting themselves up BUT rescued trimmings of Hygrophila 53b are growing very slowly and have very tatty leaves and new alternanthera rosaefolia took really well and made much better progress than I expected but have over the last week all just fallen apart!  Any ideas about why this might be happening would be much appreciated.

Thanks as ever for the wisdom.
Paul


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## aquagenetics (5 Jan 2022)

have u thought about that this could be caused by high temperature ? usually i see discus tanks struggling with plants.


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## Andy Pierce (5 Jan 2022)

That whole tank photo is very helpful.
I'll take a punt and go with a combination of much too much light and not nearly enough CO2.  Your tank depth of 18" is pretty much the same as mine (45 cm) but I'm doing a Kessil A80 (15 W) with a max intensity of 70% for 2.5 hours plus +1.5 hours ramping up and 1.5 hour ramping down (Green spot algae in the summer - Fireplace aquarium) vs. your Kessil 160WE (40 W) which has triple the output of the A80 and is running at max intensity of 100% for 7 hours plus additional ramping.  I suggest you change your peak intensity from 100% to 30% and see if that helps with your algae.  You'll find the reduced intensity still gives you plenty of great visibility for your tank.
Your pH drop of 0.15 units is very modest (most aim for 1.0 unit drop) and although drop checkers are accurate when used correctly, could you show a picture of the drop checker under white illumination?  How much CO2 do you go through?  Check out the excellent UKAPS thread on CO2 consumption:  CO2 used Database -needs your data.  I think when you do your calculation along these lines you'll find you're consuming much less CO2 than most other people.


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## Zeus. (5 Jan 2022)

Fluctuating CO2 due to inadequate flow/tank turnover and light too High - IMO
With two years the Vals should be at the top off tank and MC carpet should have much better coverage of the substrate
I would have the filter outlets and Two Hydro Koralia all at one end pointing slightly upwards forcing the water all one way so you get good surface agitation, at the moment they are all working against each other. Not sure how the Discus will handle it but worth a try IMO

The Two Hydro Koralia can go off once lights go off and come back when CO2 starts. I have my gyres on very low once lights went off. This will give the fish a rest at night and enable clean up crew to clean the Two Hydro Koralia and any free leaves to fall off

I am running my 500l without CO2 at the moment no kessils just some T5 lighting and algae isn't an issue as flow is still good. I think EI dosing is a little excessive for your plant biomass


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## Conort2 (5 Jan 2022)

Big messy discus which like high temperatures are not the best fish for high tech planted tanks unfortunately. You could probably up your flow a fair bit and the discus won’t mind, yours are domestics but in the wild discus live in areas with surprisingly high flow at certain times of the year. Do you ever vacuum your substrate? I know it’s a pain with aqua soil and planted tanks but it does appear to be quite dirty. 

I would also recommend that you worm those discus, there are quite a few that appear to be quite thin with pinched in bodies.

Cheers


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## SumoC (5 Jan 2022)

Thanks everyone for your advice. 


Andy Pierce said:


> I suggest you change your peak intensity from 100% to 30% and see if that helps with your algae.  You'll find the reduced intensity still gives you plenty of great visibility for your tank.
> Your pH drop of 0.15 units is very modest (most aim for 1.0 unit drop) and although drop checkers are accurate when used correctly, could you show a picture of the drop checker under white illumination?  How much CO2 do you go through?  Check out the excellent UKAPS thread on CO2 consumption:  CO2 used Database -needs your data.  I think when you do your calculation along these lines you'll find you're consuming much less CO2 than most other people.


I'll drop the lights slowly and see what happens.  Will dropping to 30% still be enough to keep the carpet growing?   I'll spy tomorrow before the CO2 comes on what the initial pH is, the 0.15 is through the day from lights on to CO2 off, sorry, that's probably not a very helpful set of readings!  I get throught a 5kg cannister in 2 months, I'll have a good read around the CO2 use database, thanks for the pointer.


Zeus. said:


> With two years the Vals should be at the top off tank and MC carpet should have much better coverage of the substrate


Sorry Zeus, I should have explained that one better too! The background sagittaria got a very harsh haircut to get rid of the BBA, it's happily up at the top when let to grow.  The MC has been in about 4 weeks.


Zeus. said:


> I would have the filter outlets and Two Hydro Koralia all at one end pointing slightly upwards forcing the water all one way so you get good surface agitation, at the moment they are all working against each other. Not sure how the Discus will handle it but worth a try IMO
> The Two Hydro Koralia can go off once lights go off and come back when CO2 starts. I have my gyres on very low once lights went off. This will give the fish a rest at night and enable clean up crew to clean the Two Hydro Koralia and any free leaves to fall off


Oky dokes, I'll sort that.  Would you place them towards the top of the aquarium? One is currently low to blow across the carpet - am I trying something foolish there? The discus seem happy enough with the flow as it is so I can't imagine just moving from one end to the other will cause too much trouble.


Zeus. said:


> I am running my 500l without CO2 at the moment no kessils just some T5 lighting and algae isn't an issue as flow is still good. I think EI dosing is a little excessive for your plant biomass


I'd been pondering that, I pushed it up thinking that the holey leaves may have been a phosphate problem (I've been reading around...probably the wrong sources!)  I'll drop it back to the usual EI dosing next time I mix some up for dosing

Apart from the algae, do you think the issues outlined could cause the rosaefolia to fall apart the way they are?

I'm wary of changing too much too quickly, it's normally when I start messing about that it all goes wrong.  I'll take the changes steady and let you know what happens.

Thanks for your help.


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## Zeus. (5 Jan 2022)

Forgot to mention a pH profile would also help to confirm the CO2 is or is not stable


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## Aqua360 (5 Jan 2022)

Definitely up against it with high temperature, big discus contributing to bioload, and high lighting. Also can't go mad on the flow side either as discus aren't fond of it. 

In any case, I'd consider reducing lighting as mentioned above.


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## SumoC (6 Jan 2022)

pH was 6.70 as the gas turned on this morning, will plot it through the day to make a profile and repeat tomorrow to make sure I've got it right.  I've found that much more CO2 than I'm putting in now causes the fish to gasp at the surface so I'm reluctant to go too much higher.

I've been minful of flow for discus since upgrading the flow with the Koralia a couple of years back, so they've been in there for that long without getting too blown about.  I'll make sure it's nice for them. 

Thanks all for your input.


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## SumoC (7 Jan 2022)

Hi everyone,
I love a good graph, so here you go!  One CO2 profile, through the night even has a couple of points thanks to the dog who woke me up to let him out!  It seems to be following the same track again today.





Andy Pierce said:


> Check out the excellent UKAPS thread on CO2 consumption:  CO2 used Database -needs your data.  I think when you do your calculation along these lines you'll find you're consuming much less CO2 than most other people.


That's a great little tool, thanks for the pointer Andy.  By my maths I'm coming in at about 0.015g/l/h, which is at the lower end of the chart but not off the bottom.  I've also just noticed an error in my initial repost, the CO2 is now delivered by one in tank diffuser, rather than inline.  I might return to the inline atomiser and see about pushing the CO2 a little higher, watching the fish as I'm definitely near the edge!


Conort2 said:


> Do you ever vacuum your substrate? I know it’s a pain with aqua soil and planted tanks but it does appear to be quite dirty.


Thanks Conort, sorry I just realised that I never did reply to this.  One reason for the move from sagittaria to MC in the foreground is to make hoovering a bit easier, I've been careful lately to not disturb the MC as it roots, but the plan is to be much more vigorous with that side of things.  Thanks for the pointer.


Zeus. said:


> I would have the filter outlets and Two Hydro Koralia all at one end pointing slightly upwards forcing the water all one way so you get good surface agitation, at the moment they are all working against each other. Not sure how the Discus will handle it but worth a try IMO


I've been pondering on this one all of yesterday Zeus.  I've always aimed for a bit of surface movement but not too much, thinking that surface agitation encourages gas exchange and hence CO2 degassing from the water and increasing oxygen in the water column? Have I got this all wrong?

Thanks as ever,
Paul


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## erwin123 (7 Jan 2022)

SumoC said:


> I've been pondering on this one all of yesterday Zeus.  I've always aimed for a bit of surface movement but not too much, thinking that surface agitation encourages gas exchange and hence CO2 degassing from the water and increasing oxygen in the water column? Have I got this all wrong?
> 
> Thanks as ever,
> Paul






This video of George Farmer's own tank shows the amount of surface agitation he has.


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## dw1305 (7 Jan 2022)

Hi all, 


SumoC said:


> I've always aimed for a bit of surface movement but not too much, thinking that surface agitation encourages gas exchange and hence CO2 degassing from the water and increasing oxygen in the water column? Have I got this all wrong?


No, <"that is right">.  I'm not a CO2 user, but I believe that people are willing to exchange increased CO2 loss for greater stability. 

cheers Darrel


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## Zeus. (7 Jan 2022)

dw1305 said:


> I believe that people are willing to exchange increased CO2 loss for greater stability.


Correct as D Wong put in his early Vids, Higher surface agitation helps get a more stable [CO2], IMO all CO2 users should think the CO2 is free (cost wise and to the environment)- only then you can use it to its max benefit for tank/plants


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## SumoC (7 Jan 2022)

Ah cool, glad I wasn't totally misunderstanding the whole situation!  Very happy to go for stability over cost.  Great point well made Erwin.

Here's the big update from me today, and it means everything that I've told you so far is pretty much redundant, as are the lovely yellow drop checker photos from this morning.  The surface agitation has made *so* much difference to the CO2 levels that I've decided to go 'in for a penny, in for a pound' and change everything today.  So, updates are:
1. Both Koralia 7000s (sorry, another initial error, checked today, definitely 7000s) are by the filter outlet, angled slightly upwards, surface agitation gets almost half way down the tank and there's still motion in the plants at the far end.  Discus occasionally ride the wave but are looking on the whole pretty relaxed about the whole situation.  This was done at about mid day, after which the pH has started to _rise_ again, so that needs attention!
2. Diluted Jecod doser boxes to straight EI concentrations as recommended by the manufacturer
3. Lights reduced, now at 60% max (was 80% yesterday, will be 50% tomorrow)

One question for you guys...I've got the old in line CO2 atomiser that I could return to.  I've just got one manifold on my solenoid so am limited to one atomiser or one in tank diffuser.  What would you do? Go in line or just pump lots through the diffuser?

After all this I'll take a while to dial the CO2 back in so it might be a few days before the next update.  Is the profile above something like what I should be looking to get back to?

Thanks as ever.


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## Gorillastomp (7 Jan 2022)

SumoC said:


> After all this I'll take a while to dial the CO2 back in so it might be a few days before the next update. Is the profile above something like what I should be looking to get back to?


would need to know your degassed water PH, you will need take a sample in a glass and let it sit for at least 24hrs or shaking the sample then test the PH, repeat until the ph doesnt move anymore.

Because if your degassed water is really 6.7 then you only have a .5 ph drop which is too low. You need to aim for at least 1 ph drop. To do so you need your actual degassed water PH.


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## Gorillastomp (7 Jan 2022)

Denis wong Video about how the curve should look using gaseous exchange at around 3:10 min mark :


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## SumoC (7 Jan 2022)

Gorillastomp said:


> Denis wong Video about how the curve should look using gaseous exchange at around 3:10 min mark :



What an incredibly helpful video. Thank you!


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## SumoC (30 Jan 2022)

Thanks all for your help in this.  Update time!

After your advice I dropped the light, moved my flow around, had a good tune up of the CO2, and here is where I am at...

Currently 3 kessils at 65%.  I had dropped to 50% but I noticed a definite drop in growth rate, to almost nothing at all.  Back to 65% now, algae doesn't seem to be taking over an the monte carlo is sending out runners.
2x Koralia 7000s in the top left corner pushing the same way as the inlet, lots more surface agitation
Moved back to inline atomiser for CO2
Degassed water from the tap is pH 7.40.  CO2 profile for the last few days has been (purple lines CO2 on and off, yellow lights just on, orange lights on 65%):





My first question - does this all sound ok? All looks ok in the tank, although the plants aren't doing a vast amount of growing.
My second question - I initially came here as I was struggling with Hygrophila 53b (very slow growth) and alternanthera rosaefolia (leaf holes/melt).  The hygrophila is still there, still growing slowly, and the alternanthera has gone completely now.  I'm really keen to have a red plant across the front of the longer wood, to break up the greens and to add a different texture.  Should alternanthera work now I've got the other things right, or is there something fundamental? When I planted last time it took beautifully then fell apart after about 3 weeks, never to return - I assume after it had used all the nutrients in the jelly?

Photos attached for your enjoyment and in the hope they might be useful.
Thanks as ever.


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