# What's wrong?



## Bhu (19 Nov 2014)

hi All

So it's getting close to use my EI now as my neutro+ is nearly all gone. So I decided 3 days ago to mix the solutions up.

The micro mixed well and is all in solution, but...

The macro is not fully dissolving and I have a sediment of salt in the bottom about 2-3 cm in thickness, this is after 3 days and nights of being mixed and shaken every day hard. As below...




 

I've followed the the amounts as on the apfUK card that came with the starter kit. 
4 tsp Potassium Nitrate
1 tsp Potasium Phosphate
6 tsp Magnesium Sulphate

And mixed with 500ml of RO water. 

I did make a slight change. As I use RO I split the nitrate so used 2 tsp of potassium nitrate and 2 tsp of calcium nitrate. 

Is this what's causing the salts not to fully dissolve or is it normal to have salt sediments in the 500 ml bottles and you just shake well before dosing? Or should they be fully dissolved?

Can someone please advise as its my fist time starting with EI and don't want to mess up my tank as its doing well... 

Thank you in advance

Bhu


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## tim (19 Nov 2014)

I think it's a reaction with the phosphate and calcium nitrate, I stand to be corrected


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## Bhu (19 Nov 2014)

Mmmm ok can this be used, shake well before use kind of thing? Or is it best I throw it away and start again using just Potasium nitrate?


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## ian_m (19 Nov 2014)

You have just performed the wonderful reaction below, producing insoluble calcium phosphate precipitate.

2KH2PO4 + Ca(NO3)2->  Ca(H2PO4)2 + 2KNO3

Why do you want to add calcium nitrate ?

If dosing EI, just follow the tried and tested formula. Just mix with tap water, works fine.


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## Bhu (19 Nov 2014)

I don't use tap water period! These days it's barely good enough to flush your toilet with let alone be used for my fish! I never touch it and only use RO water. I will just have to throw it away and see how I get on with tried and tested version adding a bit of Ca No3 if needed as a separate solution. Hopefully this reaction won't happen in the tank. Or maybe tuffet I add to the RO before a water change has enough Ca in it.


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## ian_m (19 Nov 2014)

Try this for re-mineralising solution, it doesn't contain nitrate. Probably best to add this at water change.
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/RO.htm

Or you could just re-mineralise, like a lot of people do with 50:50 RO:tap water.

I assume your water is not UK based then ?


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## Paulo Soares (19 Nov 2014)

Good morning,
I´m gonna took this thread to also point something else similiar that happens to me. But in my case with MGSO4

My Ei dose in a 500 ml bottle was:

KNO3 - 26.09g
KH2PO4 - 6.3g
KCl - 8.87g

Since i had join in the same bottle *6 TSp of MGSO4 *that i have always the same amount of Nitrates concentration in the tank no matter if i dose 10 or 15 or 20 ml a day.. At the end of the day when i measure the concentration i always  have 5 MG / litre in the test. 

I just can´t figure out what´s wrong. 

I allready made another bottle and the same happens...

best regards


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## ian_m (19 Nov 2014)

Paulo Soares said:


> I just can´t figure out what´s wrong.


Really really simple, you are using a hobby grade test kit and as you have found give useless results. These test kits are severely affected by other salts/chemicals in the water, so much so you cannot rely on their readings. Why do you think EI "was invented", so that you don't need to test anything.

Not helped by adding KCl (why ?) which chlorides are know to cause test kits to give false readings.

So just dose EI and stop testing, you are being misled into doing things that are just making things worse.


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## Paulo Soares (19 Nov 2014)

Now i´m gonna put my head in the rope cause you allready told me this before 

Anyway IAn.. how we can measure if we´re dosing properly? At list that we´re dosing more then less.. 

Many thanks


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## Paulo Soares (19 Nov 2014)

Of course we know we´re given the less by apointments in the plants but i rather prevent then get at that point if you know what i mean!


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## Bhu (19 Nov 2014)

ian_m said:


> Try this for re-mineralising solution, it doesn't contain nitrate. Probably best to add this at water change.
> http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/RO.htm
> 
> Or you could just re-mineralise, like a lot of people do with 50:50 RO:tap water.
> ...


Ha ha yes I'm UK based but not under some Victorian spell of greatness. My eyes are wide open and my tap water tested often. 

Thanks for the link I will compare it to what I use already.  I wouldn't even use 50% tap water thank you!


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## Michael W (19 Nov 2014)

Paulo Soares said:


> Now i´m gonna put my head in the rope cause you allready told me this before
> 
> Anyway IAn.. how we can measure if we´re dosing properly? At list that we´re dosing more then less..
> 
> Many thanks



The best method to know if you are dosing properly in my opinion is to observe your plants. If they are doing well then you are doing something right if not then you know you have a problem. I use the Duckweed Index proposed by Darrel. It involves observing floating plants in your aquarium, since they have access to unlimited CO2, we can rule out CO2 as a problem if we see that they were doing bad, this leaves us with nutrient deficiency. Once this happens we can then start dosing until we see that the floaters start to perk up. This method works very well in a low tech aquarium.

In the high tech, it is harder to judge because there is always a chance that CO2 can be a limiting factor so, in this case high tech users usually will follow EI and just simply give more than the plants need. I think then through the dosing of EI we then turn to monitoring the opposite of the Duckweed Index, we turn to CO2 deficiencies and flow since we can now potentially eliminate nutrients as a factor for poor growth. 

I may be wrong with my explanations but this is my view.

Michael.


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## GlassWalker (19 Nov 2014)

I came across that precipitate on another forum. I do recall that calcium phosphate isn't insoluble as such, just quite low solubility. The concentrations in a dosing container are too high for it to dissolve, but at tank concentrations it'll be ok.

I'd just mix the EI to standard, and if you do want to add calcium, add that to the tank separately.


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## Paulo Soares (19 Nov 2014)

Many thanks to you all.

I´m enlightened and overwellm for the reception and help around here. Something not seen in most foruns. 

You are cool. All of you. 

A big hug!


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## Bhu (19 Nov 2014)

GlassWalker said:


> I came across that precipitate on another forum. I do recall that calcium phosphate isn't insoluble as such, just quite low solubility. The concentrations in a dosing container are too high for it to dissolve, but at tank concentrations it'll be ok.
> 
> I'd just mix the EI to standard, and if you do want to add calcium, add that to the tank separately.



Thank you


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## ian_m (19 Nov 2014)

Bhu said:


> Ha ha yes I'm UK based but not under some Victorian spell of greatness. My eyes are wide open and my tap water tested often.


I know of no UK water that is not suitable for aquatic use AFTER use of suitable dechlorinator (obviously RO, with suitable pre-carbon filter also counts as suitable dechlorinator), interesting you know otherwise ?


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## roadmaster (19 Nov 2014)

Have kept  domestic tank raised Discus,Mikrogeophagus,cardinal tetra's, (presently) in 12 DGH.pH of 7.6 from the tap .
If neighbors can drink the water,Likely fish shops in the area also use same water.
Some folks convince themselves they need R/O to keep fishes, and with exception of some wild caught species, or if breeding is a consideration,the local water would be fine assuming your neighbor's aren't dropping like flies.
I do know friend's here in the U.S. that will not drink anything but bottled water and they are amazed that I remain healthy drinking from the tap or garden hose while working outdoors.


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## dw1305 (19 Nov 2014)

Hi all, 





ian_m said:


> You have just performed the wonderful reaction below, producing insoluble calcium phosphate precipitate.
> 2KH2PO4 + Ca(NO3)2-> Ca(H2PO4)2 + 2KNO3


 That is the one, most phosphates have very low solubility.  Once the ions are in solution they can recombine into insoluble compounds (like carbonates & phosphates), which will precipitate out of solution.

Have a look at <"Solubility rules">.

You also potentially have the "common ion" effect if you make up concentrated solutions. This means that if a solution is saturated with ions, when you add more of the same ion the compound with the lowest solubility constant will come out of solution.

For example Rift Lake Cichlid keepers get this this if they add NaHCO3 to hard tap water, which is already saturated with HCO3-. Sodium ions  ( Na+) go into solution and the less soluble Ca++ ions (as CaCO3) are precipitated out. 





ian_m said:


> Really really simple, you are using a hobby grade test kit and as you have found give useless results. These test kits are severely affected by other salts/chemicals in the water, so much so you cannot rely on their readings. ......  Not helped by adding KCl (why ?) which chlorides are know to cause test kits to give false readings.


 Same again Ian is right, the chlorides (Cl-), and too a much lesser extent, sulphates (SO4--), in solution are interfering with the NO3 test kit.

Ion interference is a particular problem with anions, and even effects Ion Selective Electrodes (IOS).  The traditional methods of testing for NO3 in saline water etc  use a cadmium (Cd) reduction, which raises all sorts of H&S issues.

cheers Darrel


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## ian_m (19 Nov 2014)

roadmaster said:


> I do know friend's here in the U.S. that will not drink anything but bottled water and they are amazed that I remain healthy drinking from the tap or garden hose while working outdoors.


The problem in the US is the bottled water industry have convinced consumers tap water is unsafe and also managed to pass laws virtually telling the water companies how they and what they should do to purify the water. Thus a lot of US tap water whilst perfectly safe, has a taste and smell issue, due to not belong allowed to use clarifiers and other chemicals and even chlorine (so use chloramine) that the rest of the world uses. Mind you has encouraged plenty of other "state of the art" ways to purify water by the water companies.

In fact my Dad worked for a testing company (a few years ago) who performed independent water quality tests for both water companies and bottled water companies. This is to check the companies labs are correct and consistent. In his opinion, from what he found, it is UK tap water every time, significantly safer than any bottled water, mainly due to presence of chlorine. It is chlorine that keeps the water safe, also keeps all the processing equipment safe, and in one shot makes tap water safer than any bottled water. If your bottled water has any minerals in it then it can be a breeding ground for bugs, unless yes, chlorine is added (and often removed before bottling) or ozone added or UV sterilised.


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## Paulo Soares (19 Nov 2014)

After read this i can say i live in a paradise..  

In Portugal tap water is the safiest. And the best you can drink, or cook etc. etc. 
All our cityhalls (312) take care of it and it´s higly controled. 

In my country  Is unthinkable to have any kind of issue with the domestic water. 

Even the lab results are published on the websites of each cityhall. 
Our water is very reach in Calcium, magnesiim, iron, and all others necessary to health. 

That´s why we don´t had Calcium or magnesium in our Ei. Cause our tap water does have it in good porpotions. 

For instance: In my village calcium in tap water is about 45 mg /liter.


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## Mr. Teapot (19 Nov 2014)

Paulo Soares said:


> Our water is very reach in Calcium, magnesiim, iron, and all others necessary to health.



You're lucky, London tap is rich in prescription and illicit drug residues, hormones and agricultural runoff.


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## ian_m (19 Nov 2014)

Mr. Teapot said:


> prescription and illicit drug residues, hormones and agricultural runoff.


I doubt it, you are confusing the press fuss about these when they were found in London sewerage.


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## Mr. Teapot (19 Nov 2014)

Pesticides were above maximum level on 26 occasions in my area last year. Loads of papers written about prescription drug residues being found in drinking water.


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## Bobster (29 Nov 2014)

ian_m said:


> "UK tap water every time, significantly safer than any bottled water, mainly due to presence of chlorine. It is chlorine that keeps the water safe, also keeps all the processing equipment safe"



Not all UK water is chlorinated!

It's also important to remember that chlorinated water is proven to increase the risk of cancer so "safe" is only relative!


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## Bobster (29 Nov 2014)

ian_m said:


> I doubt it, you are confusing the press fuss about these when they were found in London sewerage.



Pesticides and hormones run off the fields into the rivers and then into tap water. Presticides/hormones are not removed during processing.


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