# Question about Estimate index powders



## Jeroen712 (7 May 2022)

Yesterday i decided to switch over to EI dosing for multiple reasons. I live in Holland, and all the big names from america (NilocG etc.) aren't available to me. So i've found this Dutch website which sells all the powders. They have their own little Estimative Index calculator, which shows you how much of their powders you have to put in the seperate containers (Macro, Micro) in order to get the solution you need. which is the following:

Recipe for the Macro solution:
Add 432ml of lukewarm to warm (osmosis) water in a container with a minimum content of 500ml.
Add 10.28 grams of potassium nitrate (KNO3)
Add 0.8 grams of potassium phosphate (KH2PO4)
Add 4.68 grams of potassium sulfate (K2SO4)
After you have added the ingredients, shake the bottle for about 1 minute so that all the powders dissolve.
Then add another 48ml of lukewarm to warm (osmosis) water so that your total solution comes out in volume at 480ml. This amount makes dosing easier than 500ml.

Recipe for the Micro solution:
Add 432ml of lukewarm to warm (osmosis) water in a container with a minimum content of 500ml.
Add 2.92 grams of trace elements (Tenso Cocktail)
After you have added the ingredients, shake the bottle for about 1 minute so that all the powders dissolve.
Then add another 48ml of lukewarm to warm (osmosis) water so that your total solution comes out in volume at 480ml. This amount makes dosing easier than 500ml.

Monday
Add 40ml Macro solution to your aquarium.
Tuesday
Add 40ml of Micro solution to your aquarium.
Wednesday
Add 40ml Macro solution to your aquarium.
Thursday
Add 40ml of Micro solution to your aquarium.
Friday
Add 40ml Macro solution to your aquarium.
Saturday
Refresh (approximately) 50% of your aquarium water
(rest day)
Sunday
Add 40ml of Micro solution to your aquarium.

So after that i looked up the Rotala Butterfly calculator from Barreport and it shows different grams for every single ingredient except for KNO3. For example: the website i use says add 0,8 grams of KH2PO4 and the barreport says 1,56 grams. So my question is...
Are there different kinds of powders which are like "stronger?"? The guys who sell these powders have award winning aquariums and they have been doing this for a long long time.
It might be a dumb question but yeah.. I've never done this before and would like to do this the right way.

Thanks!


----------



## Hufsa (7 May 2022)

I think in order to help we will need to know exactly which targets are meant to be met, sometimes I see people quote different numbers for "Full EI" dosing.
But with some more information im sure the people here will be able to figure it out


----------



## Jeroen712 (7 May 2022)

22.50 ppm NO32.00 ppm PO422.50 ppm K0.05 ppm B0.27 ppm Ca0.06 ppm Cu0.40 ppm Fe0.00 ppm Mg0.27 ppm Mn0.01 ppm Mo3.07 ppm S0.06 ppm Zn0.00 ppm dGH

This is what the website says i'm adding to my 70L aquarium if i dose according to what i've mentioned earlier. Which seems pretty much like "Full EI" dosing to me


----------



## Hufsa (7 May 2022)

Your numbers in the first post look to be correct, I ran the numbers for KNO3 and Tenso cocktail and they both match the result from both our IFC calculator and Rotalabutterfly.
I think there has been a simple mistake in your input in Rotalabutterfly, I believe your original calculator is giving you the dose per week, for 3 doses of macro and micro.
You need to account for this when entering into Rotalabutterfly, that the target number will be for only one dose of 40 ml, not 3 doses of 40 ml.
I divide 22.50 ppm NO3 with 3 (the number of times you dose per week),
and then it matches up =10,27 grams (rounding is slightly different therefore its not 10,28 grams)


----------



## Hufsa (7 May 2022)

Alternatively you can enter 120 ml (3 x 40 ml) as the dose size and input your weekly target below, like this:






Also; Welcome to UKAPS! 😊


----------



## Jeroen712 (7 May 2022)

Oh wow, you're actually a life saver lmao. For some reason i messed it up because my input was "EI dosing" instead of "dose to reach a target" as shown below.


----------



## Hufsa (7 May 2022)

Jeroen712 said:


> Oh wow, you're actually a live saver lmao. For some reason i messed it up because my input was "EI dosing" instead of "dose to reach a target" as shown below.


Youre very welcome 
Its a jungle out there with stuff and all the options can be super overwhelming. I still get a little lost sometimes myself.

Here is the readout from IFC calculator (made by some very clever people (not me!) here at UKAPS), as you can see it also matches.





One thing to keep in mind is that you get K from both KNO3 and KH2PO4, so when you put in the target you should account for some of the free K that you already got, that is, if you are doing things manually.

Not to be a salesman, but the IFC calculator is even more all-inclusive than Rotalabutterfly, and while it looks scarier, its actually easier to use once you get to know it, and less easy to make mistakes, because the calculator does more things automatically for you 
I wrote up a little guide for it if you want to have a look


----------



## Jeroen712 (7 May 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Youre very welcome
> Its a jungle out there with stuff and all the options can be super overwhelming. I still get a little lost sometimes myself.
> 
> Here is the readout from IFC calculator (made by some very clever people (not me!) here at UKAPS), as you can see it also matches.
> ...


Thank you so much for all of this. I've been worrying about this all night because i'm going to start dosing tomorrow. Hopefully the EI method will help my plant growth since my previous fertilizing routine was all over the place.


----------



## Jeroen712 (8 May 2022)

Hufsa said:


> One thing to keep in mind is that you get K from both KNO3 and KH2PO4, so when you put in the target you should account for some of the free K that you already got, that is, if you are doing things manually.


That is also very interesting, explains alot why it was still going wrong for me in my calculations (just for K2SO4). Thanks again !


----------



## Zeus. (8 May 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Here is the readout from IFC calculator (made by some very clever people (not me!) here at UKAPS)


Thank you and to generous, 'we was standing on the shoulders of giants'  

I would say the OPs Dose is close to Full EI which is plenty, maybe just lacks the Mg, easiest fix would be a level teaspoon of Epsom salts at WC or add 2 to 4 teaspoons of Epsom salts to macro mix


----------



## Jeroen712 (8 May 2022)

Zeus. said:


> Thank you and to generous, 'we was standing on the shoulders of giants'
> 
> I would say the OPs Dose is close to Full EI which is plenty, maybe just lacks the Mg, easiest fix would be a level teaspoon of Epsom salts at WC or add 2 to 4 teaspoons of Epsom salts to macro mix
> View attachment 188152


Thanks for this, assuming epsom salts are MgSO4? They sell it on the website aswell. Is this necessary? Kind of tight on money right now and don't want to pay for the product + shipping right now. Also my aquarium does not use RO water, just pure tapwater.


----------



## dw1305 (8 May 2022)

Hi all,


Jeroen712 said:


> So after that i looked up the Rotala Butterfly calculator from Barreport and it shows different grams for every single ingredient except for KNO3. For example: the website i use says add 0,8 grams of KH2PO4 and the barreport says 1,56 grams. So my question is...
> Are there different kinds of powders which are like "stronger?"?


There are often forms of a compound which are "stronger" (ones with more of the nutrients we are interested in), it is to do with the differing amounts of water in the compounds, the  <"water of crystallization">.


Jeroen712 said:


> 0.00 ppmMg


Are you using RO water, that you've <"already re-mineralised">, in the tank? If you aren't you'll need to add some magnesium (Mg). There are <"differences in hard water"> between N. Europe and much of N. America, <"for geological reasons">.

*edit What @Zeus. says


Jeroen712 said:


> Thanks for this, assuming epsom salts are MgSO4?


MgSO4.7H2O and ~10% magnesium. You can get them cheaply for bath salts etc. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Jeroen712 (8 May 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> There are often forms of a compound which are "stronger" (ones with more of the nutrients we are interested in), it is to do with the differing amounts of water in the compounds, the  <"water of crystallization">.
> 
> ...


Hi Darrel,

Nope, i just use plain old tap water.  I've just measured the GH which is 8, didn't expect it to be this high.. PH is around 7,5-8. I currently don't own a KH test.


----------



## dw1305 (8 May 2022)

Hi all, 


Jeroen712 said:


> I've just measured the GH which is 8, didn't expect it to be this high............. I currently don't own a KH test.


You are likely to have about 8 dKH as well, again for geological reasons.  Chalk is white because it is pretty <"much pure CaCO3">.


> Naturally you tend to get similar amounts of dGH and dKH, because they both originate from <"dissolved limestone (CaCO3)">. The derivation of the various units is in Larry Frank's article at <"the Krib">.








Jeroen712 said:


> ........ PH is around 7,5-8


The pH value just reflects you that have <"some carbonate hardness">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Jeroen712 (8 May 2022)

More details about my aquarium:
The scape is around 1 year old
The aquarium is 85L, around 70L without the hardscape etc. The light i'm using is a Chihiros WRGB 2 Slim (the less powerful version of the normal one). Current light intensity is 85% Red, 75% green, 75% blue. It used to be 100/85/90 but i am struggling with some BBA and Staghorn on my hardscape and slow growing plants, i have started lowering the light intensity just a few days ago so can't speak of any results yet. 1hr ramp up, 7 hours of 85/75/75 intensity 1 hr ramp down.
My previous dosing schedule and ferts were absolute trash, i just did whatever because i've always had low tech aquariums and a year ago made the switch to high tech.

My current struggles are:
Black beard AND staghorn on hardscape, very small amounts on my slow growing plants Anubias, ferns, and a little bit in my Monte Carlo, the monte carlo doesn't appear to be that healthy either.
Stems are growing very well and look to be very healthy, however my monte carlo carpet isn't growing in that well and has some bba / staghorn in it.
The filter is use is a Fluval 207, and an Eheim skim 350 for additional flow, the skimmer's output is directed at my co2 diffuser. This is because the current filtration i have is drilled through the tank and i am limited to what kind of outflow "nozzle?" i can use.
So yeah.. The reason i'm switching over to EI is because i'm fairly certain that my light is fine, and my co2 is fine. And the only thing i was missing is proper nutrients.

If anyone has any further questions just let me know, i can also upload pictures of the current "issues" i have.


----------



## Jeroen712 (8 May 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> You are likely to have about 8 dKH as well, again for geological reasons.  Chalk is white because it is pretty <"much pure CaCO3">.
> 
> ...


Makes sense, thanks!


----------



## Jeroen712 (9 May 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> You are likely to have about 8 dKH as well, again for geological reasons.  Chalk is white because it is pretty <"much pure CaCO3">.
> 
> ...


Just measured my KH and it's 12, seems a little bit high.


----------



## dw1305 (9 May 2022)

Hi all,


Jeroen712 said:


> Just measured my KH and it's 12, seems a little bit high.


The dKH test <"measures alkalinity"> (rather than carbonate hardness) via an acid / base titration, so there maybe other bases present.  It doesn't really matter whether it is dKH 8 or dKH 12, in both cases you will have enough dKH to raise the pH to ~pH 8 and mean that <"you need a better chelator for iron (Fe)"> etc.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Carlos Carvalheira (17 May 2022)

can you message me that Dutch site please Im sufering in finding a place to buy the salts where I live in Portugal cannot find those anymore


----------



## Kevin2016 (20 May 2022)

Carlos Carvalheira said:


> can you message me that Dutch site please Im sufering in finding a place to buy the salts where I live in Portugal cannot find those anymore


Here you go!








						Welkom bij Aquariumbemesting.nl
					

Sinds 2006 het adres voor aquarium gerelateerde voedingsstoffen die tekorten in aquariumplanten voorkomen en de algehele kwaliteit van het aquariumwater kunnen verbeteren. Tot onze klanten rekenen wij zowel Nederlandse als Belgische aquarium winnaars. Tevens kopen aquariumzaken en verenigingen...




					www.aquariumbemesting.nl


----------



## hypnogogia (20 May 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Not to be a salesman, but the IFC calculator is even more all-inclusive than Rotalabutterfly, and while it looks scarier, its actually easier to use once you get to know it, and less easy to make mistakes, because the calculator does more things automatically for you


I’ll second that. It’s a fantastic marvel of an excel sheet.


----------

