# Starting up a 34L nano tank



## Ken Loach (12 Jul 2017)

I am shortly going to be scaping and planting my Fluval Flex 34L nano using TMC NutraSoil Brown. I want to cycle it fishless and would like to know what's the best proprietary bio medium to kick start it. A local aquarium shop advises cycling with a couple of fish in but, as the TMC NutraSoil is said to give an initial ammonia spike, I think I'd prefer to cycle without fish. Advice please.


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## Silviu Man (12 Jul 2017)

Hi Ken,

First of all, try to ignore what people from shops says, in most of the situation they are wrong or simply don't have the proper knowledges. They are simple sellers. 
Use of fish during cycling is like a deat sentence for the fish!

The best solution is to put some plants inside, preferable floating plants that are fast growing and can be removed/replaced after. Then, is good to start with a filter filled with biological filtration medium (there are many solutions from Dennerle, Seachem, Sera, ...). In my 20 litters nano I am using a combination of Dennerle and Micro-Siporax and is working very well. You can add bacterial mixture (I use Prodibio BioDigest with good results) and a very small amount of fish feed (that will generate ammonia for stimulationg the develop of cleansing bacteria). 

Then ... wait for two-three weeks. Periodical check of the ammonia and nitrites will give you info about how the process evolves.

Good luck!


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## Ken Loach (12 Jul 2017)

That's very interesting but as TMC NutraSoil gives an ammonia spike (so I am led to believe) then hopefully just the addition of a proprietary bio starter, like Fluval Cycle, will have the desired effect or am I being too simplistic? There will obviously be plants (Anubias, Java Fern, Pogostemon)  rocks (Dragon Stone) and driftwood (Red Moor) introduced at setup and the filter comprising the usual Fluval sponge, charcoal and ceramic media.


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## Silviu Man (12 Jul 2017)

I was speaking, in first place, about the story with two fish in a cycling tank! 

I read about TMC but I cannot find the remark regarding ammonia. It is a complete soil, with a slow-release of the nutrients, very close to Tropica Aqvarium Soil and the only things I've notice are that  it lower the pH and have a certain porosity that help to fix in the substrate the cleansing bacteria. If you want to stimulate bacteria population, using bacteria mixture and a few organic matter, this could help. This was the ideea.


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## Ken Loach (12 Jul 2017)

My piece of Red Moor wood has been soaking outside for around 3 months in a plastic tub full of tap and rain water so hopefully there will be some bacteria on that to help kick-start the process.


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## Silviu Man (12 Jul 2017)

I'm sorry to say this but no, this will not help you. The cycling process involve a substrate where bacteria can fix themselves. This because why there are special biological filter medium like Matrix, Dennerle, Siporax, sintetic glass, etc. These have a special structure, with a lot of microscopic caves and ducts in which bacteria are fixed but through which water flow! The most important is the flow of the water, not simple presence of the water, because those bacteria need much oxygen for being able to multiply and work like cleasing population, transforming ammonia in nitrites and, in the end, using oxygen for transformig nitrites in nitrates. Wood have not these characteristics; is a compact matter, with a structure of ducts that work only when the wood is fresh and alive. Even then, the flow of the water from the roots to the leaves is very slow. When you will put the wood in the water, after around 6-7 days or maybe a few more, you will see on the wood some white-gray fluffy formations. Those are bacteria, in an agglutinated form, that are on the way to find their way "home". And home for bacteria mean filter medium and substrate, and in substrate, especialy around the roots of the plant.


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## Ken Loach (12 Jul 2017)

Thought there would be a flaw in my logic somewhere. Still, at least it sinks!


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## alto (13 Jul 2017)

Ken Loach said:


> My piece of Red Moor wood has been soaking outside for around 3 months in a plastic tub full of tap and rain water so hopefully there will be some bacteria on that to help kick-start the process.


Depending on temperature (& pH & oxygen levels) there likely are some "bacteria of interest" on this wood - add water to any container & various bacterial populations will establish over ensuring weeks, they won't be at the same sort of population densities or rapid growth phases associated with specialized filter media, but any adherent surface in a "cycled" tank will sport some "bacteria of interest"

Using commercial "cycle bacteria" products can be an effective way to jump start a tank - pay attention to brand instructions as proprietary bacteria preparation vary considerably (I'd not depend on them for shrimp success)



Ken Loach said:


> Anubias, Java Fern, Pogostemon


Even though the Flex is a fairly low light system, I suggest including some "auxiliary" plants at the start


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## Djoko Sauza (23 Jul 2017)

Hi Ken

As long as you have a filter with some kind of ceramic rings or lava rocks (even sponge works, even if it's less effective) and you have a source of ammonia, your tank should cycle. 

Best way to know if you have ammonia in the water it to test it! Your substrate should leak some ammonia, I know those similar to ADA aqua soil do. I would not add fish at the start and keep testing. Best of luck!


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## dw1305 (24 Jul 2017)

Hi all, 





Ken Loach said:


> My piece of Red Moor wood has been soaking outside for around 3 months in a plastic tub full of tap and rain water so hopefully there will be some bacteria on that to help kick-start the process.





Silviu Man said:


> I'm sorry to say this but no, this will not help you. The cycling process involve a substrate where bacteria can fix themselves.





alto said:


> Depending on temperature (& pH & oxygen levels) there likely are some "bacteria of interest" on this wood - add water to any container & various bacterial populations will establish over ensuring weeks, they won't be at the same sort of population densities or rapid growth phases associated with specialized filter media, but any adherent surface in a "cycled" tank will sport some "bacteria of interest"


I think that "@alto" is correct. 





Silviu Man said:


> The best solution is to put some plants inside, preferable floating plants that are fast growing and can be removed/replaced after.


That is the one, floating, and/or emergent, plants are really important in the set-up stage, because they have access to aerial CO2.

If you let the plants grow in for ~ 6 weeks then your tank will have a robust and flexible micro-organism assemblage, that can respond to changes in the ammonia supply. You don't need to do anything else, the secret ingredient is just time. 





alto said:


> Using commercial "cycle bacteria" products can be an effective way to jump start a tank - pay attention to brand instructions as proprietary bacteria preparation vary considerably (I'd not depend on them for shrimp success)


They aren't going to do any harm, but they may contain an assemblage of micro-organisms that are adapted to a much higher levels of ammonia than your tank contains.

All the recent research suggests that "Ammonia Oxidising Archaea" (AOA) are the principal organisms at low ammonia loadings, and that the subsequent conversion of nitrite (NO2) to nitrate (NO3) is carried out by _Nitrospira_ spp. bacteria. It is also know known that _Nitrospira spp. _can directly oxidise ammonia to nitrate (complete ammonia oxidisers "comammox").I think people should have access to <"Freshwater Recirculating Aquaculture System Operations Drive Biofilter Bacterial Community Shifts around a Stable Nitrifying Consortium of Ammonia-Oxidizing _Archaea_ and Comammox _Nitrospira_">?

How the companies produce their "cycle bacteria" products is a commercial secret, but I would suspect that it is under high ammonia loadings. 





Diogo Sousa said:


> As long as you have a filter with some kind of ceramic rings or lava rocks (even sponge works, even if it's less effective) and you have a source of ammonia, your tank should cycle.


Yes, I'm a fan of sintered glass and alfagrog, I also think that sponge is a lot more effective as a biological medium, than it is usually given credit for, <"but oxygen is really important">.

Because we keep planted tanks we don't have problems with rising NO3 levels, so we can ensure that all the filter media is aerobic to give us the maximum biological filtration capacity. 





Diogo Sousa said:


> Best way to know if you have ammonia in the water it to test it


If you have an <"ammonia ion selective electrode"> testing is a good way, if you have to rely on <"colormetric methods">, it isn't as good.

<"Because of the problems with testing for a lot of parameters"> we might be interested in I use a different approach, where the health and colour of a floating plant is used as a proxy for nutrient status. I called it the <"Duckweed Index">, because I originally used _<"Lemna minor_">, and it was an alternative approach to <"Estimative Index"> "EI" for adding nutrients.

The duckweed index is a simple method for ensuring some plant growth, and it works in hard water, soft water etc..

cheers Darrel


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## alto (24 Jul 2017)

dw1305 said:


> They aren't going to do any harm, but they may contain an assemblage of micro-organisms that are adapted to a much higher levels of ammonia than your tank contains.


I had opportunity to use Seachem's "Seed" recently & was pleasantly surprised at how well it coped.

While floating plants might be fine to use in the Flex as startup plants, the LED stocked on this tank is of such low intensity that I'd severely limit floaters if I wanted plant growth at the substrate level - while 7watt LED sounds OK for this tank size, individual LED are <0.2w & the housing does not provide the best transmission (though waterproof) .... but the rainbow color show is fantastic - it's really a fun tank 




dw1305 said:


> I called it the <"Duckweed Index">, because I originally used _<"Lemna minor_">


I was wondering why people were calling  Limnobium laevigatum  "duckweed" 

I need to get my camera out & manage decent photos of the flourishing bright green L laevigatum in my "no tech" tanks -  Tropica Aquarium soil & extremely soft tap water, no measureable nitrogens, I rarely fertilize, change water erraticallly 
(fauna may be a few snails or shrimp), lighting is sun powered so perhaps that is a relevant factor


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## Ken Loach (12 Aug 2017)

So how many hours a day can I leave the lights on in my 34litre Flex? If the general opinion is that they aren't that effective can I leave them on (with Anubias, Java Fern, maybe Pogostemon) for 10-12 hours? The tank will be in a corner, away from the window (NW facing) but with an up-lighter standard lamp above. Obviously from a lounge-cosmetic point of view, the longer the lights are on, the better.

As far as cycling goes, I am happy to start the tank with the ammonia spike from the NutraSoil and, when my mate returns from holiday in a couple of weeks, I will have a bag of Bio Max ceramic that has been "brewing" in his well-established tank for a month.


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## Nigel95 (12 Aug 2017)

Ken Loach said:


> So how many hours a day can I leave the lights on in my 34litre Flex? If the general opinion is that they aren't that effective can I leave them on (with Anubias, Java Fern, maybe Pogostemon) for 10-12 hours? The tank will be in a corner, away from the window (NW facing) but with an up-lighter standard lamp above. Obviously from a lounge-cosmetic point of view, the longer the lights are on, the better.
> 
> As far as cycling goes, I am happy to start the tank with the ammonia spike from the NutraSoil and, when my mate returns from holiday in a couple of weeks, I will have a bag of Bio Max ceramic that has been "brewing" in his well-established tank for a month.



I start with 6 hours photoperiod and increase by 15 mins every week until max. 8 hours and watch closely if there is any extra algae.

Good way to seed your filter with some estabilished media.


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## Ken Loach (14 Aug 2017)

Initial setup, plants tomorrow. Anubias Nana & Java Fern.


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## Ken Loach (16 Aug 2017)

Part 2 - nice new piece of Azalea Root soaking, plants chosen but not planted so a rough approximation of what I'd like to achieve


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## alto (17 Aug 2017)

Do you have plant names? 

Right back pot looks to be a Hygrophila species that grows quite large 

Don't forget with the Flex you can turn on some of the color LEDs for evening viewing, or drastically reduce the intensity of the white LEDs for "moonlight" viewing - I wouldn't run the full on lights for 10-12 hours, especially while the tank is getting established .... unless you're adding CO2 it's likely that will become a limiting factor rather than light


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## Ken Loach (17 Aug 2017)

alto said:


> Do you have plant names?
> 
> Right back pot looks to be a Hygrophila species that grows quite large
> 
> Don't forget with the Flex you can turn on some of the color LEDs for evening viewing, or drastically reduce the intensity of the white LEDs for "moonlight" viewing - I wouldn't run the full on lights for 10-12 hours, especially while the tank is getting established .... unless you're adding CO2 it's likely that will become a limiting factor rather than light



Hygrophila Salicifolia Narrow Leaf
Anubias Nana
Lobelia Cardinalis
Microsorum Pteropus - Java Fern Narrow Leaf

The rear right is Lobelia Cardinalis. I'm giving them 8hrs a day at the moment with red LEDs on with the White. I've been told blue light encourages algae so I'll skip the moonlight modes for now.


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## alto (17 Aug 2017)

I'm not convinced the color LEDs on the Flex are sufficient intensity to offer much PAR, but it's fine to run with it

Interesting cardinalis, looks very different in this emerse form than what my lfs stocks
You might consider some small crypts at the front, eg C beckettii 'Petchii',there are a few plants in Tropica 1-2-Grow that work well (I think you're not plannng CO2, though I'd consider a liquid carbon) or moss covered stones etc


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## Ken Loach (19 Aug 2017)

Finished the aquascaping and planting, and happy with the result. Thinking of a couple of Crypt Wendtii in the front corners then look forward to a few small inhabitants, when the readings are right.


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## Silviu Man (19 Aug 2017)

Looks nice! 
Maybe if you put the big rocks from the front of Anubias close to the root and make a "free" space instead, will look better (just my opinion).
The bigger one, in center, under the root and the smallest, in the right side, in a small group ?!


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## Ken Loach (20 Aug 2017)

Silviu Man said:


> Looks nice!
> Maybe if you put the big rocks from the front of Anubias close to the root and make a "free" space instead, will look better (just my opinion).
> The bigger one, in center, under the root and the smallest, in the right side, in a small group ?!



Good advice. Newer arrangement.


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## Ken Loach (27 Aug 2017)

The Hygrophila Salicifolia was planted as a bunch and rotted away within a week! Replaced with an Anacharis Elodia and I'm going to put some Java Moss in too. Aged ceramic bio media introduced yesterday so hopefully livestock soon.


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## chr15_8 (27 Aug 2017)

Hi Ken

I have exactly the same tank as you. Had it running for over 2 months now and am happy enough with it. Planning to add co2 in the next few weeks.


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## Ken Loach (5 Sep 2017)

Crypt Wendtii added to foreground and all readings now good so some occupants have been added. Ember Tetras and Otocinclus and a zebra striped Nerite. Cherry Red Shrimps will be added in a day or so.


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## Ken Loach (9 Sep 2017)

This is the latest pic of my little project. The crypt in the foreground has been in a week and no sign of melt! The Nerite gets around the tank at a fair old pace. In the photo he is on the uppermost branch of the Azalea Root. The Begonia at the rear right is in decline but all other plants are thriving. Four Cherry Red Shrimps added but they aren't "very Cherry" with two being reddish and two quite clear.


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## Ken Loach (10 Sep 2017)

Three small snail interlopers found, and disposed of. Wonder which plants they came in on?


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## Ken Loach (20 Oct 2017)

Long time since I posted anything about the tank. Had hair algae problems so bought a couple of large-ish Amano Shrimps, which are busy munching their way through it. Very rarely see my 4 Cherry Shrimp but the Amanos are very visible and active so I might get a few more. Had a mollusc problem with little things that look like limpets around 2mm long on my glass and wood so I introduced an Assassin Snail, which, after 5 days, has laid eggs all over my wood! .

Took the Lymnophila out as I don't think it enhances the look of my scape (and it was going a bit brown) and got another Java Fern and another Crypt Wendtii. Photos to follow, if anyone's interested.

I do water readings weekly and pH is 7.0, Ammonia is 0, Nitrite is 0 but Nitrate is around 20-40ppm so I do at a 35-50% water change weekly to balance this out. I now have 6 bags of various ceramic bio-media in the middle compartment and can't fit any more in. All in all, I'm really enjoying the hobby.


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## Ken Loach (20 Oct 2017)




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## dw1305 (20 Oct 2017)

Hi all, 
Looks like it is growing in OK.





Ken Loach said:


> Had a mollusc problem with little things that look like limpets around 2mm long on my glass and wood


They are freshwater limpets _Acroloxus lacustris, _I think mine initially arrived in some <"wild collected moss">. 

cheers Darrel


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## Ken Loach (20 Oct 2017)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> Looks like it is growing in OK.They are freshwater limpets _Acroloxus lacustris, _I think mine initially arrived in some <"wild collected moss">.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Like these?


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## dw1305 (20 Oct 2017)

Hi all,





Ken Loach said:


> Like these?


Yes, that is _Acroloxus, _they are entirely harmless.

cheers Darrel


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## Ken Loach (20 Oct 2017)

Assassin Snail making short work of them by now.


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## dw1305 (20 Oct 2017)

Hi all, 





Ken Loach said:


> Like these?


It also looks like you might have _<"Hydra viridissima">_ on the wood.

They are the <"very small green branched things"> below the Limpet. 



 

cheers Darrel


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## Ken Loach (20 Oct 2017)

Are they harmful at all? 

I've also found (and removed) this organism.


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## Ken Loach (20 Oct 2017)

Anyone got any ideas as to why my fish (Neons and Embers) are hardly ever seen free-swimming in the mid to upper layers of the tank? They spend most of their time relatively stationary near the bottom and behind rocks and plants except, of course, at feeding time.


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## Tim Harrison (20 Oct 2017)

Lack of cover, lighting too intense, high water flow dynamics...


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## dw1305 (20 Oct 2017)

Hi all,





Tim Harrison said:


> Lack of cover, lighting too intense, high water flow dynamics...


That one.

cheers Darrel


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## Ken Loach (20 Oct 2017)

Tim Harrison said:


> Lack of cover, lighting too intense, high water flow dynamics...



Probably guilty on all counts. I think the tall design of the Flex doesn't help and a longer rectangle shape might be more conducive to shoaling fish being more mobile. However the Flex is a very user-friendly tank for a beginner so I'll have to persist with it. The plants may grow-on and I can adjust the lighting and possibly do something about the rate of flow from the pump vents.


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## Ken Loach (21 Oct 2017)

If I put a block of sponge over the water outlet nozzles to diffuse the flow will it put the pump under stress and shorten its life? I definitely think the flow is a contributing factor to the fish not moving around freely.


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## Ken Loach (21 Oct 2017)

Just observing my tank and noticed this biggish Shrimp that I didn't know I had. The only Shrimps that have been introduced to the tank are 4 Cherry Reds which were very small and almost clear, and 2 Amanos only introduced 2 days ago. This shrimp is around 1.5" long and brownish with a lighter strip along the back. Anyone know what it is?


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## Ken Loach (21 Oct 2017)

Another view.


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## techfool (22 Oct 2017)

I have a boxy tank and found that my fish came out more when I added floating plants.  Fish liked the frogbit but it was suffering in the current, getting too squished up so I'm trying water sprite.
I wonder if that is a wood shrimp.


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## Ken Loach (22 Oct 2017)

Nearest thing I can see to it in a guide is a “two coloured matano” someone on another site suggested it is a natural coloured Cherry, but it’s massive by comparison - at least 3 times longer than a normal Cherry. Not sure about floating plants as there would be light loss to my other plants. Initially I am going to try to stem the flow from the pump vents as it is quite strong in a Fluval Flex.


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## Ken Loach (22 Oct 2017)

Water flow problem possibly solved by cutting a slit in a piece of filter sponge and inserting it over the outlet nozzles from the pump. Water flow now well diffused. Hope I don’t get any oxygen transfer problems now, since changes with tanks seem to have a domino effect on other factors!


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## Ken Loach (22 Oct 2017)

Proper pic of the imposter! Approx 31-37mm long.


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## Ken Loach (3 Nov 2017)

Slightly tweaked the hardscape and added another Anubias and a couple of crypts. Fish still being very shy so might introduce a few Endlers to encourage them into the upper layers a bit more.


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## Silviu Man (3 Nov 2017)

Very nice scape, Ken! It start to become mature.
Only from an artistic point of view, I would free the fron side from the plants (relocate them, maybe under the root, on the left-back side).


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## Ken Loach (3 Nov 2017)

I like the plants in the foreground, they are very slow-growing. The Crypt Wendtii, furthest left, has been in 2 months. I like the way it's turning out but if I'd gone for an Iwagumi-style scape at least I'd get to see my fish and shrimps a bit more!


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## Kezzab (3 Nov 2017)

it's an Amano. Their colouration can change depending on tank parameters and age.


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## Ken Loach (10 Nov 2017)

Update: (if anyone is interested) 
Removed Azalea Root to give more clear water and added another Anubias and a Crypt. Only regularly seeing 3 of my 6 Otos and not seen any of my shrimps for a week. After 2 months since introducing the fish the tank still looked like a ghost-town with only the tumbleweed missing.
So I've introduced a dozen Endlers and in the two days they've been in all of the Embers are out and swimming around with them but the Neons still seem a little reluctant.
Are shrimps sensitive to nitrate levels? I test my water weekly and my nitrates are usually between 20 and 40ppm. I endeavour to rectify this with a 35 - 50% water change. Haven't actually tested the tap water for nitrates yet, so that's next on the to-do list. Pleased with how the tank looks now and I've added more bags of bio-media to the central chamber so it's now full to the waterline.


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## Ken Loach (11 Nov 2017)

Link to a short video of the tank that I made today.


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## Ken Loach (12 Nov 2017)

This is the flow in my Fluval Flex since I modded it with a piece of sponge. Also tested my tap-water for nitrates and it's 5ppm which is a contributing factor to the high-ish weekly readings.


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