# How much fertiliser should I dose?



## HBomb (20 Dec 2021)

Hi All. 
This is my first time posting on here and I could really use some help. My tank has only been set up for a few months now as I have had to restart a few times because algae got out of hand. This is the most success I have had since I got into aquascaping about two years ago. Although my plants are now growing and they have a lot of roots I don’t think they are thriving, and the algae will still take over eventually if I don’t do a good scrub regularly. 
I can’t help but think it could be better than this. Since I have never experienced a balanced aquarium I don’t know. 
As you can see from the photos I am struggling with green spot algae and blackbeard algae is starting to appear in places. The tank is about 100l with a sump so a total volume of 120l of actual water. I have recently added 3 Otto’s and 4 Amano shrimp but have ordered some more. Also have: 7 Rasboras, 4 Corys, 4 Rummynose Tetras and 1 Hongkong plec. My lights are on an 8 hour cycle at 80% and my C02 is between 25 and 30ppm. I have been dosing 5ml of TNC complete and about 2ml of Chelated iron daily. I started dosing the iron because many of the plants had yellow leaves with dark veins. I do water changes weekly. 
Should I dose more or less or could it be a different problem all together?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.


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## MichaelJ (20 Dec 2021)

HBomb said:


> Hi All.
> This is my first time posting on here and I could really use some help. My tank has only been set up for a few months now as I have had to restart a few times because algae got out of hand. This is the most success I have had since I got into aquascaping about two years ago. Although my plants are now growing and they have a lot of roots I don’t think they are thriving, and the algae will still take over eventually if I don’t do a good scrub regularly.
> I can’t help but think it could be better than this. Since I have never experienced a balanced aquarium I don’t know.
> As you can see from the photos I am struggling with green spot algae and blackbeard algae is starting to appear in places. The tank is about 100l with a sump so a total volume of 120l of actual water. I have recently added 3 Otto’s and 4 Amano shrimp but have ordered some more. Also have: 7 Rasboras, 4 Corys, 4 Rummynose Tetras and 1 Hongkong plec. My lights are on an 8 hour cycle at 80% and my C02 is between 25 and 30ppm. I have been dosing 5ml of TNC complete and about 2ml of Chelated iron daily. I started dosing the iron because many of the plants had yellow leaves with dark veins. I do water changes weekly.
> ...



Hi @HBomb  5 ml daily of TNC Complete should be fine as far as I can tell for a 120L tank (the sump counts towards the body of water) - its 35ml per week which is fine if you target EI - keep the high dosing (which is not that _high_ btw. you could even increase it..) - it's not the reason for your algae problem. Your algae problem looks like a classic CO2 application/light intensity and flow issue - a full tank shot would be helpful with more details on how your dosing CO2 ... timing, pH profile, equipment. I am not a CO2 specialist so hopefully others will chime on that or you can dig into the vast amount of CO2 threads with solutions to similar problems. See if you can better your flow throughout the tank.
To get the upper hand on this issue you should increase your weekly water changes / amount and lower your light intensity - the 8 hours is fine, but dial it down to 50% while you're working through this.  Also you should start dosing some PO4 on top of what your getting with TNC Complete (such as Sachem Phosphate) to accelerate the decline of the GSA.

Welcome to UKAPS 

Cheers,
Michael


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## Happi (20 Dec 2021)

you are dosing about this daily:

N    0.62500 (2.74 ppm NO3)
P    0.08333
K    2.08333
Mg    0.33333
Fe    0.03333
Mn    0.00750
Cu    0.00083
B    0.00417
Zn    0.00417
Mo    0.00042

I doubt what you are seeing is an Iron deficiency, it very well could be Mn and Mg. but based on those pictures it doesn't appear you have Iron deficiency, I do see varieties of algae growing on the leaves, wood etc. what kind of additional Iron are you using?  what exactly are the water parameters? 

*I would recommend adding additional Mg and Mn and go from there, you can keep your TNC dosing same as it is right now. *


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## hypnogogia (20 Dec 2021)

You could easily double your TNC complete and still not be approaching full EI.  As you’re running high tech, I’d suggest increasing your TNC complete to 10ml daily and see how you go.  Algae is often caused by nutrient deficiency as they can outcompete plants when there is insufficient nutrition.


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## MichaelJ (20 Dec 2021)

Happi said:


> I would recommend adding additional Mg and Mn and go from there, you can keep your TNC dosing same as it is right now.


What @Happi said... as it is frequently an issue in the UK that you tap water is very low on Mg... (assuming your using straight Tap and living in Brentwood UK and not US  ).... I would say 5g of MgSO4 (Epsom Salt) per week which would add 4 ppm of Mg in addition to what your getting from the TNC... and as mentioned, your high dosing is really not that _high_... so go with @hypnogogia advice as well and double it -  that will put at 38 ppm of NO3 weekly instead of 19 ppm.


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## John q (20 Dec 2021)

The plants in general look fairly healthy, the only problem I see nutrient wise is possibly a lack of P04, this thread might be of some use phosphate with EI - higher than 3 ppm?



MichaelJ said:


> Your algae problem looks like a classic CO2 application/light intensity and flow issue



Very hard to work out how the flow is being circulated from that spray bar but it looks like you have the flow pointing down, you also appear to have very little surface agitation. Maybe this configuration can work, but it seems unusual.

With the types of algae you have lights have to be considered, I'd automatically suggest you reduce the intensity,  but will respectfully ask what light illuminates this tank.


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## HBomb (21 Dec 2021)

Thank you all for the advice so far. I’ll start by trying to answer some of the questions asked. 
I’m using a pressurised C02 system with an inline defuser. It starts 3 hours before lights come on and turns off 30min before lights turn off. It’s been a while since I checked the BPS because I was going by the drop checker colour and also measuring the KH and PH to work out the C02ppm. Last time I measured the PH was 7 and the KH was 9 degrees which gives me 27ppm. We have fairly hard water in my area so I have to use more C02 hence why I have no surface agitation. Also the water flowing into and through the sump has a lot of agitation so I figured that would be enough. Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, Nitrates normally around 30ppm but near the end of the week closer to 40ppm, Phosphate between 0.5 and 1ppm at the moment, GH 16 degrees/286.4 ppm. The pump has a flow rate of 2000l/h but I have it running at around half that. I had it running stronger in the past but the plants were swaying about a lot and the fish struggled.
I made the spray bar myself and the nozzles can be adjusted to almost any angle so I have them pointing in different directions to try and hit every spot. In general they are pointing down though. 
I agree that there isn’t and iron deficiency at the moment but a few weeks ago almost all the plants had yellow leaves on them with dark veins. That all went away shortly after a started dosing the iron. I am using an EDTA Chelated Iron, 13% which I mixed at a ratio of 20g per 500ml. I have been adding 2ml per day which is about 0.104ppm for my 120l, I think. 
I’m using regular tap water and Seachem prime and yes I live in the UK. 

The most difficult part to answer is the lights. It is a light that I made myself. I designed it using the Tropica Lumens/litre guide and countless research on what spectrum and Par levels. It consists of the following high spec LEDs ordered from the US:
*94 x LUXEON 3535L COOL WHITE 5700K LED      
14 x LUXEON 3535L WARM WHITE 2700K LED
12 x LUXEON 3535L BLUE 475NM LED
12 x LUXEON 3535L Red 620nm-630nm LED*
Now this probably doesn’t help you in determining if my lights are correct but since I finished this light I have had the best plant growth since I got into this hobby. I have never managed to get the Monte Carlo to grow so well and carpet. It might just be too intense, but that is an easy fix. 
I hope I answered all your questions but I you need more info please let me know and I’ll do my best. 

Thank you
Hannes


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## erwin123 (21 Dec 2021)

Having had Algae infested AR in my tank (usually the lower leaves), I would say that its "excess waste" and "unstable parameters - including unstable CO2".  After improving tank cleanliness and CO2 stability, the algae situation on my remaining AR is much improved.

I have AR in my low tech tank - not as red, but no algae - it suggests that what ARs like is to be left alone, with stable parameters... whereas in high tech we tweak things too much. I was tweaking my CO2 recently and algae appear on one of my AR's leaves  To quote 2hr Aquarist on this:



> Alternanthera reineckii is not a demanding plant - often it suffers because aquarists try to do too much rather than too little; changing too many variables frequently. Alternanthera reineckii requires a sustained period of stability to do well.


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## Zeus. (21 Dec 2021)

Hi @HBomb and welcome to the forum 

I was going to post a compare sheet of TNC v EI dosing with a full breakdown of what your dosing and what may be missing, that would just make it look to technical and boring.

With a 100Litre tank IMO it is worth making your own ferts, so getting some salts and moving to full EI dosing will be cheaper than buying TNC or any other ferts and your plants will love you for it.



HBomb said:


> Although my plants are now growing and they have a lot of roots I don’t think they are thriving, and the algae will still take over eventually if I don’t do a good scrub regularly.
> I can’t help but think it could be better than this. Since I have never experienced a balanced aquarium I don’t know.
> As you can see from the photos I am struggling with green spot algae and blackbeard algae is starting to appear in places.





HBomb said:


> I have never managed to get the Monte Carlo to grow so well and carpet.



Which is all pointing to fluctuating CO2 levels and/or *Tank turnover/flow*, which is the number one cause of issues in a CO2 injected tank. Plus too much light for present Fluctuating CO2 levels. I have grown Monte Carlo (MC) with 50cm of water and low light in that area, however flow was excellent and CO2 was stable from lights on till CO2 off. I class stable CO2 a pH drift less than 0.1pH from lights on till CO2 off - which is tricky to achieve

We could do with some details of filter output, plus have you done a pH profile from CO2 on till CO2 off - this will highlight fluctuating CO2 levels

I would reduce photo period to 6 hours and reduce light intensity whilst the CO2 and *Flow* are addressed


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## Happi (21 Dec 2021)

@HBomb 
"I have been adding 2ml per day which is about 0.104ppm for my 120l"

0.7 ppm Fe weekly is quite a rich dose.  I suggest using DTPA Fe rather than using EDTA and dose about 0.15-0.3 ppm Fe weekly, TNC already use EDTA based Iron, using DTPA would be more beneficial in case of harder water. as mentioned earlier, I would try to add some extra Magnesium and see what happens. also if you could get some MnSO4.H2O and dose about 0.075-0.15 ppm weekly you should see some kind of response.  

*weekly Dose:
current dose of TNC
about 5-8 ppm Magnesium to changed water
0.2 ppm Fe DTPA (not EDTA)
0.1 ppm Mn *


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## HBomb (21 Dec 2021)

Hi Zeus. 
What do you mean by filter output? I have a sump filter which I thought is more than big enough as it holds about 20-25l and can easily handle a flow rate of 2000l/h. It has large mechanical filtration and more than enough biomedia. I was under the impression that you should aim for a flow rate of 10x the volume of tank water. So for the 100l only that’s a flow rate of 1000l/h. If you include the sump I should be aiming for about 1200-1250l/h. I have increased the flow slightly since I started this post.

How do I do an HP profile? How often should I take a reading throughout the day? I can do it tomorrow and post it here for you.

I have seen an EI kit on ebay that someone does which has everything you need plus instructions to make your own EI fertiliser. Will this work? 

Thanks 
Hannes


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## HBomb (21 Dec 2021)

Here are screenshots of what’s in that kit.


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## Zeus. (21 Dec 2021)

HBomb said:


> I have a sump filter which I thought is more than big enough as it holds about 20-25l and can easily handle a flow rate of 2000l/h


So filter/pump output is great - next would be what output method are you using? lily pipes/spray bar. If its just a pipe with a wide bore then it will generate little flow in tank. The should be surface movement/ surface agitation and the plants should sway with the CO2 bubbles being force all the way down to the substrate level, ideally with flow at substrate level as well
If your not doing a carpet flow at substrate level isn't as critical



HBomb said:


> How do I do an HP profile?



take a glass of tank water and let it degas 24hrs and take pH or place it in a bottle half fill it and shake it lots releasing air every so often till there's no pH change. that pH is the degased pH of tank. lets say its 6.5pH ( doesn't matter what it is, the degassed pH is what you use).
Your aiming for 30ppm CO2 so that's approx. 1.0pH drop so target pH in this example is '5.5pH'
start taking pH at CO2 on and every 30 mins till CO2 off and at lights on.
at lights on it should be 5.5pH (if degased tanks water pH is 6.5)
Then 'ideally' the pH from lights on should remain at 5.5pH till CO2 off, less drift the better - I aim for less than 0.1pH drift

Getting a stable pH/[CO2] is hard
get it stable with good flow is the first step by adjusting injection rate/BPS. then *do not* adjust injection rate/BPS again. then you just time how long it takes to reach target pH- if its 2hrs or 4hrs you accept it, as with single injection CO2 methods your pre CO2 injection time is what it is. Only with expensive twin injection can you speed it up and it can be fatal to all your livestock very easy if its done wrong.


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## HBomb (21 Dec 2021)

Hi Zues. 
I am using a spraybar with nozzles that can adjust to different directions. They definitely create a lot of flow and I have some of them pointing down/angled etc. You should be able to see that on the photos I have attached. I have also taken some photos at substrate level to show how many bubbles there are lower down and even all the way at the other side of the aquarium at that level. The plants are swaying but not too much. Unfortunately I can’t post a video of that. 
I will do a PH profile tomorrow every half hour and post the results tomorrow evening. 
Thanks again everyones advice so far.


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## Zeus. (21 Dec 2021)

Flow from pics doesn't look bad as it has the '7up' appearance. Spray bars are IMO the best way to generate form from a filter/pump. They normally work best along the back of the tank with the jets aims to hit the front glass. This creates good surface agitation and all the detritus will gather at front of tank for easy spotting/removal as when the water hits the front glass it is forced down to the lowest part of substrate then flows along bottom of tank to the back of tank then up the back to the spray bar again.

I don't like the '7up' appearance which is why I took the CO2 reactor route so tank is 'Gin' clear except for pearling. Maybe something for the future

Your CO2 profile may be fine, unlikely as very few get it right first time. Well worth checking then we can think other ferts as CO2 is the main fert in a high tech tank 

Your algae issues may be just too much/intense light, which is very easy to do with modern LED lights, most of us in the hobby have melted many of our plants with too much/intense light, I have and they pearled like mad then melted


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## Zeus. (21 Dec 2021)

HBomb said:


> Here are screenshots of what’s in that kit.


Looks the same as the APFUK starter kit from your pics which normally cost about £20. It will contain everting you need to start DIY ferts and easy to move on to EI dosing as well


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## HBomb (21 Dec 2021)

Zeus
I forgot to ask, how much surface agitation do I need? Someone said that because I am using a sump filter that is more open than a canister filter I should be getting enough agitation as the water flows through it and back into the tank. Because my water is so hard I use a lot more C02 as it is and any surface agitation in the tank will increase my C02 demands even more.


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## HBomb (21 Dec 2021)

Zeus
I don’t like the ‘7up’ look either but I have to live with it a little longer. I am currently designing a new type of reactor which if my calculations are correct should be more effective than current designs on the market. I hate wasting C02.

I can change the orientation of the spraybar to face the front glass and see what effect that has. I might do that in the new year.


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## HBomb (21 Dec 2021)

Btw that is the APFUK starter kit.


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## Zeus. (21 Dec 2021)

HBomb said:


> Btw that is the APFUK starter kit.


Aquarium Plant Food UK ( APFUK) starter kit, site is down for maintenance ATM, lots of folk get salts from them in UK


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## HBomb (20 Dec 2021)

Hi All. 
This is my first time posting on here and I could really use some help. My tank has only been set up for a few months now as I have had to restart a few times because algae got out of hand. This is the most success I have had since I got into aquascaping about two years ago. Although my plants are now growing and they have a lot of roots I don’t think they are thriving, and the algae will still take over eventually if I don’t do a good scrub regularly. 
I can’t help but think it could be better than this. Since I have never experienced a balanced aquarium I don’t know. 
As you can see from the photos I am struggling with green spot algae and blackbeard algae is starting to appear in places. The tank is about 100l with a sump so a total volume of 120l of actual water. I have recently added 3 Otto’s and 4 Amano shrimp but have ordered some more. Also have: 7 Rasboras, 4 Corys, 4 Rummynose Tetras and 1 Hongkong plec. My lights are on an 8 hour cycle at 80% and my C02 is between 25 and 30ppm. I have been dosing 5ml of TNC complete and about 2ml of Chelated iron daily. I started dosing the iron because many of the plants had yellow leaves with dark veins. I do water changes weekly. 
Should I dose more or less or could it be a different problem all together?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.


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## HBomb (24 Dec 2021)

Hi Zeus. 

I did a Ph profile yesterday and the results are as follows. Bear in mind that I don’t have the world’s most expensive Ph meter:

Degased water      Ph - 7.67

8:30                       C02 turns on
11:30 - Ph 7.00     Lights starts fading on
12:00 - Ph 6.88     Lights halfway through fade
12:30 - Ph 6.75     Lights on
1:00   - Ph 6.65
1:30   - Ph 6.64
2:00   - Ph 6.65
2:30   - Ph 6.66
3:00   - Ph 6.65
3:30   - Ph 6.68
4:00   - Ph 6.59
4:30   - Ph 6.53
5:00   - Ph 6.66
5:30   - Ph 6.56
6:00   - Ph 6.66
6:30   - Ph 6.64
7:00   - Ph 6.69
7:30   - Ph 6.62
8:00   - Ph 6.56      Lights starts fading out
8:30   - Ph 6.56      C02 turns off
9:00   - Ph 6.65      Lights off

So not 100% stable like you said but how much of that is from the inaccuracy of the Ph tester? 
If not, I wouldn’t know how to get it more accurate as its on a fine adjustment regulator. 
The other thing that is obvious is that I probably should turn the C02 on an hour earlier. 
Following on from all the advice you guys gave me, I have since doubled the fertiliser daily dose, turned the lights down to 50% and have done an extra water change this week so far. 
As soon as I can buy the Ei starter kit I shall do so and start dosing that way. 

Let me know what you think please. 
Regards 
Hannes


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## Zeus. (24 Dec 2021)

HBomb said:


> Hi Zeus.
> 
> I did a Ph profile yesterday and the results are as follows. Bear in mind that I don’t have the world’s most expensive Ph meter:
> 
> ...


Not too bad just needs some fine tuning IMO/IME, but the BPS is about right.
I would-
CO2 on time 30 earlier - that should resolve the biggest part of the pH drift
CO2 off time 4-5hours after lights on (6 hrs max) - as after 4-5 hours plants have had their fill
You will also use less CO2 with above and pH/CO2 will be more stable for the first 4-5 hours of photo period which is the important part
Repeat pH profile and check/post it 
If/when pH profile is then good need to wait 4-5 weeks for results - this part is hardest 😬😅


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## Mr.Shenanagins (24 Dec 2021)

Looks like you have some quality LEDs. In all honesty, the best advice to understand your lights output is to get a hold of PAR meter and test their output. We can speculate all day but that’s not going to give an answer that will help you. I almost went the DIY route myself in order to adjust the spectrum the way I desired, but abandoned the project due to time constraints and inexperience in the area. 

If you belong to other US forums or local clubs, you could prob borrow or rent a PAR meter from someone if you inquire.


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## HBomb (24 Dec 2021)

Thanks guys. I will adjust the C02 accordingly, do another Ph profile and post it here. 
So do I run the lights at 50%, the doubled fertiliser dose and the new C02 schedule for the next four weeks with more regular water changes?


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## Zeus. (24 Dec 2021)

Reducing the light intensity will also change the plants CO2 uptake and potentially the CO2/pH profile as well.
Any change to the tank turnover, light intensity or plant mass is worthy of checking the pH profile and adjusting if needed.
I find in my 50l if I don't trim the plants regular there a reduction in flow/tank turnover and surface agitation and pH profile goes to all over the place with the pH dropping more during photoperiod, a good trim flow returns and pH profile is good again. Same if my Ehiem skim is over due a good clean


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## Matti (31 Dec 2021)

HBomb said:


> I have been dosing 5ml of TNC complete and about 2ml of Chelated iron daily. I started dosing the iron because many of the plants had yellow leaves with dark veins. I do water changes weekly.


Yes, I know that here  the standard answer is  "it's a CO2 related problem" , but stop with the extra iron for a while and see what happens.


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## HBomb (1 Jan 2022)

Thanks Matti. I have stopped with the extra iron since I got the first response about doubling the amount of TNC but I have also implemented a lot of the other advice I was given. I am definitely seeing some positive results but it’s hard to tell which of the changes is most responsible. Still happy with the outcome.


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## HBomb (4 Mar 2022)

Hi all.
I know it’s been a while since I posted my initial query, but I thought it’s about time I give everyone who helped me an update on my progress. I think I’m finally winning the battle and things are really looking promising.  See the attached photos. It’s not perfect yet, but I think with a bit more time  most of the algae will go. 
Zeus, if you are still there, the reason I took so long to reply is because I had to make some drastic changes to my water after your last post. I acquired some shrimps to help with my algae problem, but then I also had to gradually switch to RO water because my tap water is so hard is practically solid. The shrimps would not last. That of course threw out my C02/pH balance that I worked so hard to get right. So I finally have the GH and KH levels that I need and have “tuned” the C02 to give me the desired pH and it is stable. I have also started making my own ferts using that EI kit and the results are amazing. All the advice that I received on here from everyone has made this possible so I thank you all.


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## MichaelJ (4 Mar 2022)

HBomb said:


> I have also started making my own ferts using that EI kit and the results are amazing. All the advice that I received on here from everyone has made this possible so I thank you all.


Great to see things coming around! Keep it up! 👍


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## Zeus. (5 Mar 2022)

Glad to hear your getting there and it does take time, if it was easy there would be no challenge and the harder something is the greater the achievement in my book.


HBomb said:


> It’s not perfect yet


Very few/if any aquascapers have a 'perfect tank' in their own eyes as when you get close to getting everything right the scaper of the tank sees all the minor imperfections with the naked eye which the camera doesn't pick up. When I look back on some of the pics I have of my tanks they always look better retrospectively as all the minor faults are hidden


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## Garuf (6 Mar 2022)

Zeus. said:


> Glad to hear your getting there and it does take time, if it was easy there would be no challenge and the harder something is the greater the achievement in my book.
> 
> Very few/if any aquascapers have a 'perfect tank' in their own eyes as when you get close to getting everything right the scaper of the tank sees all the minor imperfections with the naked eye which the camera doesn't pick up. When I look back on some of the pics I have of my tanks they always look better retrospectively as all the minor faults are hidden


Or that show up when using a potato to take pictures that look a okay in real life. 

And even then it’s ephemeral, the image you like gets further away with growth.


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## HBomb (7 Mar 2022)

One thing I’m still struggling with is BBA. It is the only nuisance that still seems to be getting worse when all the other are slowly going away. I spot treat treat every evening with Hydrogen Peroxide but not sure I will ever win the battle the way it’s going at the moment.


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