# When to worry?



## Majsa (19 Feb 2019)

Another poop thread! Lately, I sometimes see a fish with white long feces. A while ago a tetra, a day after they had been eating a lot of BBS. Last week an adult CPD, but not really long but white and translucent...this morning another CPD fry (in the picture the string looks thicker than it actually is). The fry got BBS on Sunday and microworms yesterday. Is this related to the food they eat or should I be worried? I don't see any other symptoms, so I'm hoping this is normal... What do you think?


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## dw1305 (19 Feb 2019)

Hi all,





Majsa said:


> I sometimes see a fish with white long feces


I would be a little concerned. You don't normally get visible faeces when you feed live food. 

I'd probably try and keep a close look at their condition, and if they are showing any signs of thinness (or redness around the anus) I would medicate. 

The two most likely options are intestinal protozoa and/or nematodes. I haven't had fish with intestinal flagellates for a long time, but I have had a few recently (last ten years) with <"Nematode infections">. 

cheers Darrel


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## Majsa (19 Feb 2019)

Thanks Darrel.



dw1305 said:


> I'd probably try and keep a close look at their condition, and if they are showing any signs of thinness (or redness around the anus) I would medicate.



In that case, what kind of medication would you suggest? I can get Esha -ndx which I believe to be levamisole, or Flubenol. I don't think I can buy metronidazole here without prescription. 

But for now I will keep an eye on them. I am a bit wary about medication, especially with fry, so I'd like to avoid it if possible. How about feeding them garlic? Or Epsom salts? Won't hurt to try?


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## MirandaB (19 Feb 2019)

Personally Esha NDX is my go to wormer,well tolerated by all fish and apparently is supposed to boost the immune system too.


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## sciencefiction (19 Feb 2019)

Flubenol-flubendazole based treatment is pretty much harmless to fish and small fry and would be my first choice. The advantage is also that it does have an effect on both nematodes and flagellates such as the one causing hex, and also trematodes such as flukes, so it is quite broad spectrum.  It also does not require chemical removal as it is fully bio-degradable after about 4 days. 

To target flagellates only, you can also buy NLS Hex-Shield on Amazon but I'd personally start with Flubenol

Esha NDX-levimasole based, can actually cause issues with some more sensitive species of fish so it would be my second choice of treatment. The advantage of it is that it may not be as harsh on inverts such as Flubenol

Fish can suffer nematodes or hex without any external signs besides the white feces so if I were you, and have seen that in more than one fish on and off, I'd treat. In nature fish can carry worms for life but in fish tanks it interferes with their development and immune system, and can be trigger for secondary diseases.


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## Majsa (20 Feb 2019)

I am a bit undecided about whether to medicate or wait and observe. It was one neon, one adult CPD (but that looked a bit different), and the fry (but I think a couple of times, and not sure if it's the same one), all in different tanks. Should I treat them all (I'd skip the tank with shrimp and snails) or start with the fry tank? On the other hand, I am planning to let them join the adults in a few weeks, so maybe better treat them together.

If I go ahead with Flubenol, would it be the same recipe as for planaria (Flubenol 5%, 1 gram per 100 ml of water and then 1 ml of this solution per 5 L tank water)? Do I need to repeat the dose after a certain time?


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## sciencefiction (21 Feb 2019)

Majsa said:


> If I go ahead with Flubenol, would it be the same recipe as for planaria (Flubenol 5%, 1 gram per 100 ml of water and then 1 ml of this solution per 5 L tank water)? Do I need to repeat the dose after a certain time?



I've used Kusuri wormer plus, which is also flubendazole so not sure on the dosage of Flubenol but you do need to repeat in 4 days.


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## Majsa (21 Feb 2019)

It looks like both products have the same amount of flubendazole in them, 50mg/g, so in theory I can dose as if it was Wormer Plus I guess (or am I missing something?).


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## sciencefiction (22 Feb 2019)

Check what other ingredients are in the Flubenol besides flubendazole.  Flubendazole itself is safe to overdose. Also, make sure what you have is FLUbendazole and not FENbendazole.

The dosage I found for Flubenol 5% is /4 teaspoon per 20 gals which is 1/4 gram per 5 gallons


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## sciencefiction (22 Feb 2019)

You can also order Kusuri Wormer plus from the UK on many websites. At least you'd know it is formulated for aquarium use.


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## Conort2 (22 Feb 2019)

I would go ahead and use esha ndx. My fish had a really bad case of nematodes which wormer plus wouldn't even do anything to. One dose of esha and the fish were clear, was excellent stuff.

The thing with with nematodes is you may not actually notice them until it's too late. A lot of my fish got secondary infections and died from things like dropsy. Since using esha I haven't had any deaths at all for over two years.

Cheers

Conor


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## sciencefiction (22 Feb 2019)

Levamisole specifically treats round worms and nothing else.

What the OP's fish may have is either round worms, tape worms or spironucleus vortens, i.e Hexamita.

It is not about which med is best. There is no such a thing. It is about what it treats.  Flubendazole is broad spectrum and it definitely treats what it claims to treat. It is an extremely safe med as well, except for inverts of course. I don't recommend levamisole because it can kill sensitive fish and may not be safe for fry.


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## sciencefiction (22 Feb 2019)

@Conort2 

What dosage did you do with the Kusuri and how many times? Was the Esha Ndx just a follow up? How long after the Flubendazole?


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## Conort2 (22 Feb 2019)

sciencefiction said:


> @Conort2
> 
> What dosage did you do with the Kusuri and how many times? Was the Esha Ndx just a follow up? How long after the Flubendazole?


I believe I used the recommended dosage over a few seperate occassions as it wasn't having any effect. This was for callamanus which I believe is a type of round worm, so would make sense why the esha worked. I also tried feeding panacur which I have good results with in the past but this didn't work either.

 I hate callamanus, must be one of the worst diseases/ parasites going. Almost thought I was defeated but the esha done the trick.

Cheers

Conor


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## Conort2 (22 Feb 2019)

sciencefiction said:


> @Conort2
> 
> What dosage did you do with the Kusuri and how many times? Was the Esha Ndx just a follow up? How long after the Flubendazole?


Sorry didn't reply to the question, I believe this was a couple of weeks after the kusuri. However this was some time ago so can't be too sure.


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## sciencefiction (22 Feb 2019)

Thanks Conort2. From what I know levamisole paralyzes the worms and they have the potential to remain in the fish, and cause dropsy or death, so I was a bit surprised you experienced that with Flubendazole instead. It sounds more like a side effect of levamisole. Flubendazole starves the worms, so they're still mobile and can get out themselves. If the infestation was heavy, perhaps both drugs were needed and the final dosage just worked. So it is possible it was the duration and timing effect rather than flubendazole not being effective in the first place. Callamanus worms are nasty.

Ph. D Charles Harrison also wrote an article some years back on Flubendazole effect on hexamita and velvet. See below link. It is also used in human trials on blocking the growth of tumors. 

http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/FlubendazoleArticle.pdf


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## Majsa (22 Feb 2019)

Thanks all for your replies. 

I am sure Esha is effective but I think flubendazole is a good starting point in this case, being safe for fry.


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## sciencefiction (4 Mar 2019)

Hi, Majsa. How did you get on with the treatment?


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## Majsa (4 Mar 2019)

Good that you ask, I forgot to update. It was rather expensive to order Kusuri from abroad so I ordered Flubenol 5% from a shrimp breeder. I read about the recommendations online and there are huge differences, from light concentrations to maybe 10-folds against all parasites. In the end I calculated the concentration Kusuri uses as they say it's safe for fry. I treated the fry tank last week with the following "recipe":

- 0,5 grams of Flubenol 5% stirred in 50 ml of warm demineralised water (or 1 gram in 100 ml)
- 1 ml of this fluid treats 3,8-4,5 L tank water (whether you calculate from UK or US gallons...) 
- Leave in water for 4 days.

I went for 4 ml for the 15,5 litres of my NanoCube 20 (I was disappointed how little water it actually holds). First, I was so focused on the fish that I forgot that I had two horned nerites in the tank! Luckily, I got them out on time (and found out that the flubenol is quite irritating for your skin, not to be used without gloves). 

There seemed to be both stress and excitement in the tank for the first two hours, the fish went eating something on the bottom of the tank (dead limpets?). One smaller fry looked a bit drunk and he literally somersaulted when producing a short bit of white feces. After that, everything went normal again. I was a bit worried about not being able to do WC's for four days with such a small tank but all went well.

I understood that you should redose after four days with heavy infestations, but I though it wouldn't be needed in this case. I hadn't seen any white feces for days before treatment and haven't since either. I do still have some grams of Flubenol in case of doubt, so if needed I can treat all my tanks. 

Unfortunately I lost one fry in the last day of treatment, but I don't think it had anything to do with the medication. One fry got trapped between the internal filter and the glass and whereas I had been able to save him before, now the filter somehow opened up and sucked the poor little one almost in...he didn't recover  A sponge filter next time.


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## sciencefiction (4 Mar 2019)

Thanks for the update


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