# Where does the wood come from?



## Kezzab (11 Apr 2019)

Just curious if anyone can shed light on where and how the various wood types that are sold are sourced? Is it sustainably done, or is some forest/bog somewhere being annihilated for our "piece of nature"?

This discussion is had about livestock, but not seen much about hardscape.

K


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## Tim Harrison (11 Apr 2019)

I've often thought about that too. The short answer is probably no it's not sustainable, especially as the hobby grows and demand increases. I sometimes wonder where Tom Barr gets all his manzi from, and I imagine him having to range further and further in to chaparral to find it. But I'm guessing it's treated pretty much like a weed since it has no value as timber, and is often cleared to make way for fir and pine, and to create firebreaks to prevent wildfires from spreading.

Not a wood example, but it perhaps illustrates the point... I read somewhere that Seiryu stone was originally imported from Japan, but it's no longer available due to ecological/landscape conservation concerns.
Apparently, it's been substituted by a similar rock imported from China called Yingshi for some time. But I'm not sure how true that is.


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## DutchMuch (11 Apr 2019)

Kezzab said:


> Just curious if anyone can shed light on where and how the various wood types that are sold are sourced? Is it sustainably done, or is some forest/bog somewhere being annihilated for our "piece of nature"?
> 
> This discussion is had about livestock, but not seen much about hardscape.
> 
> K


i hope this thread goes far.
I dont think in my years of doing forum's i have ever seen someone ask this.

Following.


Edit: can verify that seiryu is now highly illegal to export from japan.
Most of the Seiryu stones being sold outside of Japan are typically Ryouh Stones and are just commonly misidentified. Even through Ryouh Stones are still worth their lbs, there is a difference between the two.


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## Kezzab (11 Apr 2019)

Can anyone who has worked in the industry shed some light?


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## DutchMuch (11 Apr 2019)

I just now remembered this, and its not related to wood, but it just goes to show how some things in the hobby come to be:

I used to (about a year ago) know a guy who lived in or near thailand, forget the name of the area, was out of my vocabulary. But he used to collect wild buce, and sell it across the nation for good profit (for his location it was "good profit") and after knowing him for a while he told me he also sold endangered types of buce and some other plants. Cant remember the names (again, out of my vocab) but anyway point is he would illegally collect them and resell for decent money.

Having been in the hobby for a while and knowing a Lot of people, i know about.... 7 people that if i needed Illegal plants or things done, i could get it. But obviously i dont because
A: illegal
B: immoral as hell.


I'm not in that life, as far as tree's/wood go, i'm not sure, and i have never known anyone who wanted to sell me a rare type of wood or an endangered type at that. Etc etc. I just know plants.


_*if its not obvious i dont like peeps who illegally collect/sell_


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## Kezzab (11 Apr 2019)

This is it exactly. With plants we know what we purchase in the uk is all grown in nurseries (i think!).

But is wood produced like that? Are there places growing azelea just so the can collect the roots? Is it byproduct?

Eg. https://m.alibaba.com/product/60381...ral.html?spm=a2706.7835515.0.0.4d5531eclhmZCJ


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## Kezzab (12 Apr 2019)

lose 10 house points.


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## zozo (12 Apr 2019)

Spiderwood comes mainly from China and or its surrounding countries, its Azalea (Rhododendron) in this region of the world this plant is already cultivated for ages by budhist monks. For it's medicinal propperty and the flowers symbolism as a gift. I believe the Chinese common name for this plant is "Think about home plant". I have to guess now, but because a shrub can gat rather big and old, nurseries cultivating it likely use the plant only till it reaches a certain age than cut it, dig it out and replant young ones again.

The roots go as a by product to the pet industry.

Wood under the name Savanna wood comes from Africa.. Mopina and Opuwa are a few i know of come under this name but there likely is more.
Probaly dug up from farming and mining fields etc. Instead of burning it, it goes around the wolrd for the pet industry again.

Yati Wood is Teak.. I guess it doesn't need explaination if you sit at or on teak furniture.

Cholla wood, is from the Cholla cactus, the flowers are edible and also have medicinal propperties. Cultivated and farmed in and arround Mexico.

Bog wood comes from the Peat mining sites wherever it is dug up.

Mangrove, grows all over the wolrd Africa has the most of it... And for example Brazil has a huge Urban mangrove site, a Manguetown build smack in the middle of a Mangrove swamp. Guess what..

There likely is much and much more, as a by product from a variety of undustrial sites. If we weren't there to buy it they would still dig it out and burn it

As Tim wold say, in it for a fast buck.


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## Keith GH (12 Apr 2019)

In Aust I think it must be labeled what country it came from as we have extremely strict import rules.

Keith


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## Keith GH (12 Apr 2019)

zozo

These pieces of Drift Wood are on the shore of an Australian Island just of our northern coast.
I can assure you they were not grown on that Island but another country, washed down a river then into the ocean and finishing up on the islands shore.













The same goes for the Dug Out Canoe






Keith


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## Kezzab (12 Apr 2019)

@zozo interesting, but im not 100% convinced that all the wood we have access to is just a byproduct of another process. The volume for sale seems too high and consistent for that. Its a little too neat. This is just my gut feeling though.


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## zozo (12 Apr 2019)

Kezzab said:


> @zozo interesting, but im not 100% convinced that all the wood we have access to is just a byproduct of another process. The volume for sale seems too high and consistent for that. Its a little too neat. This is just my gut feeling though.



Yes i've seen pictures, i believe it was Oliver Knot German aquascaper searching for wood in a warehouse. Several piles metres high in all sizes. i have no idea where it was, looked like asia..

But if you imagine reports about areas as big as several football fields get deforested for soy farming on a daily basis in Asia alone. I guess that would cover a large percentage of our wood. Than we still have Africa, farming and mining and South America doing the same. Not even to mention wood logging for the furniture and building industry. They all take down trees and the roots have to go somewhere too if you need the ground for other purposes.

I guess you are underestimating the numbers a bit, sizes of football fields per day per continent is quite a pile of root material as left over. 



> At least 10,000 square miles of primary forest and peatlands — the equivalent of five islands the size of Bali — have disappeared since the moratorium.


In one country only..

https://e360.yale.edu/features/despite-government-pledges-ravaging-of-indonesias-forests-continues

A trivia, long forgotten.. Can you iimagine, Spain ones was covered with huge Oak forests. Go look for them now.. Can't find them.. Its the dryest country of Europe, pretty empty in regards of forests.. All cut away to build the fleet to colonize other countries and start cutting down their propperty.. That's what people do.. Bonkers isn't it..


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## zozo (12 Apr 2019)

Btw same goes for the Netherlands, also a seafaring nation, with a VOC fleet. Our country once was one big forest.. Now you can't drive a mile without seeing a building.. It's no longer a country, it's one big city.


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## Kezzab (12 Apr 2019)

You might be right. Heartwarming to know we're playing a part in the rampant deforestation of the planet...

I think it would be great if suppliers/shops provided this information as part of an attempt to become a bit more ethical/sustainable.

I find it ironic that our desire for something 'natural' in our living rooms doesnt always seem to translate into a general desire to protect wild habitats.


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## zozo (12 Apr 2019)

Lon time ago i had a chat with a Hippy running around yelling world peace, same rights and treatment for all poeple on the planet. We drank a beer and i got to know him a bit better, he was a fasionable hippy and his hobby was playing DJ at house parties. He liked to undulge a good life..

Than i asked him, what are you willing to sacrifice to fullfill your hippy dream you stand for so fanaticaly? He looked at me rather strange and asked what do you mean?. I said simple, in comaprance to 3th world country you live like a king..If that should be equal in every aspect to everybody on the planet, you probaly could not afford that fasionable jeans you are wearing and likely would not have a CD player to play DJ at the house party. The world is so divided you probably have to give more than 50% away from wath we have right now to give that poor chap assembling your CD player an equaly good life. It would reduce your good life for 50% to give the other half away. Are you willing to sacrifice that?

He said you are to honest mate i don't want to talk to you anymore.. And i answered Ok kid go on living your dream..


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## Kezzab (12 Apr 2019)

I know, we're all guilty of that to some extent. But that doesnt mean you shouldnt at least try to do something positive.


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## zozo (12 Apr 2019)

I don't know if it has to do with beeing guilty.. I'm rather tankfull to mother nature winning the lotery and beeing born where i was born.. I didn't ask for it..
I feel like doing enough possitive and try to be as responsible as possible.. But to change the world, change humanity?. I'm afraid words don't do it and in regard of action it takes collectivity.. But survival of the fitest is a rather selfish instinctive concept we can't get around. It's probably something the majority of todays generation in the west doesn't think about because they never suffered a day beeing realy hungry.


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## mort (12 Apr 2019)

The thing is though, even if these are just normal by products from other industries, is it the best thing to be shipping them half way around the world so we can use them in our tanks. For me it would be better to use locally sourced materials that are probably abundant and not damaging to the environment. Rock and wood weighs a lot and I've seen pictures of containers stack high, with each size of each type of wood filling them. These warehouses go on for seemingly ever and there are lots of them in China (check out aquarium product sourcing in China vlog on youtube).
But that comes from someone who is not a true aquascaper. I don't have the skill or wish to create a lovingly crafted scape with a specific type of rock that I've seen the great masters using. So getting a local rock with less character isn't an issue, nor is using wood that I've pruned from my fruit trees or picked up in the woods, as I know I won't see them under the plants if all goes well.


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## LondonDragon (12 Apr 2019)

Tim Harrison said:


> I sometimes wonder where Tom Barr gets all his manzi from, and I imagine him having to range further and further in to chaparral to find it


He has actually seek local authority permission to collect it, has a fire prevention method of eliminating the dry wood. Lucky guy


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## Kezzab (12 Apr 2019)

mort said:


> But that comes from someone who is not a true aquascaper. I don't have the skill or wish to create a lovingly crafted scape with a specific type of rock that I've seen the great masters using. So getting a local rock with less character isn't an issue, nor is using wood that I've pruned from my fruit trees or picked up in the woods, as I know I won't see them under the plants if all goes well.


I'd agree with this. I haven't bought wood or rocks for a few reasons - a) i'm tight fisted and they are EXPENSIVE! b) i'm fortunate to live in a part of the UK that is overflowing with wood and rocks c) sustainability etc

I appreciate that i can be accused of whistling in the wind on the last point, but it makes be feel fractionally less bad about everything else.


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## Kezzab (12 Apr 2019)

He doesn't seem to ask at any point where all the stuff comes from, putting aside the rights and wrongs, i'd just be curious!


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## Ed Wiser (12 Apr 2019)

I always wondered why no one isn't selling ceramic pieces in wood shapes. In the marine hobby it has become something that is done since they banned the collection of Live rock years ago.
I could see this coming for the aquascaping hobby if any one started going on about deforestation of the land. Ceramic pieces could be useful as they would not leach tanins and might not be a good home for bad beard algae as other problems


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## DutchMuch (12 Apr 2019)

mort said:


> For me it would be better to use locally sourced materials that are probably abundant and not damaging to the environment.


a lot of people dont know this is an option.
i guess most people figure that *_Well if its not bought, there is just no way you can use it _!*
Example is for old cedar wood (depending on type, age varies)
in my area we have tons of old dead dried up cedar wood from years and years ago (20+ some of them, its really neat and pretty) and if you soaked it for roughly 3 weeks to be safe imo you could very well use it.
Yes its softwood, but its still local and beautiful 

I used to do dutch tanks so i dont use hardscape, never really have, but if i were to, i'd either buy lava rock from the store or just locally collect everything else lol.


Speaking of, i remember now i do have a tub of lava rock that i bought a while back- just never used it. hmmm.


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## zozo (12 Apr 2019)

Lately there was another thread about it and in it i learned from @Edvet  and @dw1305 that the common redish collered bogwood available in the trade is Pinewood dug up from the peat bogs. Thus if you find redish bogwood in the lfs it most likely is Bog Pine wood.. And since pine trees grow only in the northern hemisphere it most likely is from a Peat digging site not very far away (few 100 miles or less) from the wholesalers location if found in Europe.   For the rest of the decorative woods in the vivarium hobby trade except Magrove probably never was submersed for a day.


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## Oldguy (12 Apr 2019)

Kezzab said:


> wood types that are sold are sourced



Some UK bog wood is ploughed out of peaty farmland or sourced as a byproduct from peat extraction. In a past life there was a guy that came round with a lorry and chain saw and sold it by the cwt. Seldom use it now. As for the fancy spidery stuff I use heather twigs that can be found on poorly managed moorland.


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## Oldguy (12 Apr 2019)

zozo said:


> seafaring nation, with a VOC fleet



We took the precaution of planting oak trees for our navy. Moved on to steel ships before the oaks matured. Still have them but they are past their prime. Where I live the surplus forestry plantations (softwoods) are being returned to heathland grazing.


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## sparkyweasel (12 Apr 2019)

Kezzab said:


> I think it would be great if suppliers/shops provided this information as part of an attempt to become a bit more ethical/sustainable.
> .


That's a good point. When you buy timber, furniture, sheds, cutting boards or almost anything else wooden it's labelled with the origin and what sustainability scheme it's been approved by.


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## Kezzab (12 Apr 2019)

Out of curiosity ive emailed the FSC to see if they certify anything sold in the aquarium trade. Ill share the response if i get one!


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## Aqua sobriquet (13 Apr 2019)

Some of the thin spidery stuff looks like fairly ordinary dry wood that has been sand blasted.


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## zozo (13 Apr 2019)

Oldguy said:


> We took the precaution of planting oak trees for our navy. Moved on to steel ships before the oaks matured. Still have them but they are past their prime. Where I live the surplus forestry plantations (softwoods) are being returned to heathland grazing.



VOC stands for "Joined East-Indian Company" 1602-1800, back then it was worlds largest monopoly trading company. It was so large they had their own navy fleet to protect their cargo fleet. Back then there was no invironmental awarness, only colonial explotation without remorse. Actualy the whole country the Netherlands is gouverned by 2 provinces called Holland (north and south) where the harbors are. The rest around it called The Netherlands is simply confiscated as buffer area for its recources and strategic or political value. That was the first signe of their colonial expansion drift, exploit the confiscated areas around you.

The gouverment still is seated in Holland, actualy all major multinationals that run the country and beyond are seated in Holland too. It got big by name and marked itself on the world map with colonial explotation. Still, today actualy, but a little less in everybodies face, times change now they play saint. But behold..  Dutch poliiticians are since memory all educated or simply forced by the powerfull to become White-Collar Criminals..  Some journalists say, we aren't a democracy at all, we simply are a Lobbycracy.. And they are correct.. Politicians are pushed forward by large multinationals, making deals, do and say what ever it takes, make this happen for us and your pension is secured..


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## PARAGUAY (14 Apr 2019)

Just a example. In his book A Walk In The Woods Bill Bysons while praising rangers on the ground but realises the authorities have failed they  the National Park Service and US  goverment In the demand for the diverse flora botanists and scientists from early in the last century were allowed to raid and plunder the unique habits in the Appalachian Mountains, many of these people disapeared in the wilderness never seen again but some extracting plants on a industrial scale for mainly Europe.In the last century mammals unique there have become extinct now in double figures, many flowers and a whole lot of trees only found there have gone forever, in one example he shows instance of mismangement. A creek river is "chosen" for a Rainbow Trout farm,so they poison the creek killing all the native fish again many rare and unique to that habitat and one species that had never been seen before scientists said! Many times the National Park budget was spent totally on roads and bridges in the wilderness instead of protecting flora and fauna.The Appalachians are only one example in one place  in the world. The books a great read by the way written as only Bryson writes and not all doom and gloom for anyone who has not read it about walking the Appalachian Trail


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## dean (16 Apr 2019)

I know for a fact that people in Indonesia go into the forest searching for the right type of plants (azalea etc) to dig up for the roots which are then exported by the container load to China 
Due to what I do I get offered all sorts of stuff like this people just send me pics in hope that I will buy or know someone who will buy 
So unfortunately I believe a lot of this is not even sourced legally let alone ethically 

The only wood that I know of that is available commercially and is a true byproduct is the wood that’s commonly used in vivariums in the uk which is coffee wood  


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## Kezzab (16 Apr 2019)

Interesting post Dean, good to get insight from someone in the business.


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## dean (16 Apr 2019)

I really love this hobby and have done so for over 30 years but it’s an industry that isn’t particularly ecofriendly due to our species greed and strange behaviour of having to own things
Wild caught fish demand a higher price by the end retailer compared with farmed specimens of the same species and the rarer something is the higher the price goes 
Or make something illegal and watch the prices go through the roof 
CITES doesn’t really work that well, for example the Asian Arrowana is freely traded in parts of Asia so it only effects exports to EU, USA Australia etc 
Some fish species are illegal in some EU countries but due to open borders within EU all you have to do is drive to the nearest country where it’s legal, buy it and drive home 
Lots of Buce are still collected from the wild and sold by the kilo 

Greed is a terrible Human trait but we all show it and accept it even on here we praise people for owning a collection of fish and plants without even wondering if they were ethically sourced or not 

Why do we crave the exotic non native things ? 

Why do people buy gars and other large predatory fish and yet they would not even consider having a pet Pike? 





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## dean (16 Apr 2019)

Where’s the section of this forum that promotes native aquascaping ?

Surely even in the UK we have enough native plants to have a go at this ?

I’m not knocking this forum in any way as I think it’s brilliant but is this something that our hobby should be encouraging ? 


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## Kezzab (16 Apr 2019)

It is that weird paradox of folk wanting something 'natural' in their home, but generally being unconcerned about the impact on actual nature.
Is there anyone trying to push a more ethical and sustainable approach in the aquascaping side of the hobby?

Your point about UK plants - i wonder if some of the challenges are about seasonality and keeping a cooler water temperature?

Is there a list somewhere of common aquascaping plants and their closest UK native equivalent? Do we just not have the species suitable?


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## dean (16 Apr 2019)

I don’t think anyone’s ever tried it 


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## zozo (16 Apr 2019)

For nothern hemisphere biotope aqaurium, you would need a Cooler instead of a heater. And yes people have tried occasionaly there are a few topic about it..  If i remeber correctly even George our forum founder once did an English biotope tank.

But without a cooler it never is a long term succes.. It simply gets to warm in the tank setting this up indoors in small aqaurium volumes Indigenous plants from our region are mostly anual plants, some can be grown as evergreen in higher artificial light conditions..But all Indigenous fish need that cool winter periode and overall cool water, if it gets to warm to long than don't live past a year.. The only one able to coop with this is the Carp, officialy not indigenous, but an ancient exotic from asia. Romans are to blaim introducing the carp into Europe..


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## zozo (19 Apr 2019)

If you're up to it emotionaly, follow this..

https://www.facebook.com/brutnature

It regularly reports and articles about deforestation etc. around the world, obviously it's mainly in the tropics.. Where else, since the majority of worlds forest is left in the tropics.





Or this
https://www.facebook.com/borneoproject



https://www.facebook.com/worldeconomicforum

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019...5AyMtv_DbEOUqj4l9QXx8q66-AYg_twJrN8fCRIL-s8lI

Nice sites to follow and it's not only doom and gloom but can be confronting sometimes.


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## Ed Wiser (19 Apr 2019)

This why we need to support fisher people that collect responsibly. I just don't think we will get the truth about where the wood comes from as well as the rocks.


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## dean (19 Apr 2019)

I think if you want imported wood and wood that is ethically and environmentally sourced then the price would be many times what it is currently 
So I guess it’s either find hardscape locally or do without and do more Dutch style aquascapes  (I can think of much worse things) 


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## PARAGUAY (24 Apr 2019)

dean said:


> I don’t think anyone’s ever tried it
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Practical Fishkeeping have native biotopes on occasion but usually limited to sticklebacks as most native to uk fish would be unsuitable for aquariums but it would be good to have uk planted species aquariums


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## mort (24 Apr 2019)

PARAGUAY said:


> Practical Fishkeeping have native biotopes on occasion but usually limited to sticklebacks as most native to uk fish would be unsuitable for aquariums but it would be good to have uk planted species aquariums



We could fake it a little as well, switching native fish with temperate.


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## dean (24 Apr 2019)

What about our native Minnow they are nice 
Yes they prefer streams but I’m sure with a x10 flow they would be ok 






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## castle (24 Apr 2019)

dean said:


> What about our native Minnow they are nice
> Yes they prefer streams but I’m sure with a x10 flow they would be ok
> 
> 
> ...




They generally die


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## castle (24 Apr 2019)

.


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## dean (24 Apr 2019)

castle said:


> They generally die



You have to ask why they die 
As there’s no reason any fish should just die 


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## dw1305 (24 Apr 2019)

Hi all, 





castle said:


> They generally die


They have quite high water quality requirements, you only find them in relatively highly oxygenated flowing water.

cheers Darrel


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## sciencefiction (24 Apr 2019)

When I was a kid, I pretty much started fish keeping with fish caught locally. I even ended up with carp at some stage...not that they lived crammed in my "big" 5 gallon tank 

I don't think the requirement for cooler temperatures would be that much of a problem if you keep the aquarium in a cooler room of the house. As a kid I kept a fast flowing river loach that was caught for bait, from an area of the world where every winter gets below zero. With all my inexperience it still lived for 5 years inside at home in an unheated tank and ate dried floating daphnia as a staple, lol. It's obviously the worst example one can give but just saying  

There is a small local river here where I walk the dog sometimes. In the summer, the water is crystal clear and the bottom covered in aquatic plants. It's pretty striking looking and non typical for around here as most rivers are mud brown. I actually must take a picture sometime.


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## sciencefiction (24 Apr 2019)

Kezzab said:


> It is that weird paradox of folk wanting something 'natural' in their home



I don't think folks want anything "natural". There's nothing natural about us keeping tropical fish in non-tropical climates, in glass or in my case plastic boxes, lol. 
Folks want unique, something the others don't have, the "wow" factor they can boast about. Nature and habitat destruction is just something one reads on the news and forgets about. 

We were in a local park the other day on a lovely day. The park is quite big with plenty of area to walk around. There are a couple of lakes and a river passing through. 80% of the people were sitting in the wooden tables and benches area, having a beer "in nature", grilling meat, making noise, throwing rubbish and generally messing up. That's nature experience for most people. 

Our dog is totally not friendly with other dogs and we can't let her off the leash. Guess what, she had a massive stretch of a field for herself to run around like a lunatic as most people were sitting around where the "fuss and buzz" is, and the dogs standing there like tools.


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## Kezzab (25 Apr 2019)

I know what you mean, thats why i put natural in commas .

But ive read so many times on here people talk abou their 'slice of nature' or similar, and we talk about Nature Aquariums etc and we, aquascapers, are inspired by natural habits but then dont question the impact of our hobby on other natural habitats. 

Yes, im sure many people just dont give a blahblahblahblah but i also think a lot of people in the hobby do have an affinity for the natural world, but they ve never just stopped to think.

Im no saint in this regard, but im trying and i think we need to make people ask more questions and think about how we minimise our hobby's contribution to the degredation of the planet.


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## zozo (25 Apr 2019)

In our northern hemisphere fish evolved in relative cold waters during the biggest part of the year far bellow 10°C. Since fish are cold blooded their metabolisme is highly depended on this invironmental temperatur. If they are kept permanently in higher temp conditions for example indoors the biggest part of the year above 15°C and higher. Their metabolism will triple in speed and not only age and burn up their lifecycle 3 times faster but also require more food and polute the water a lot faster. A hot summer with a heatwave, 8 weeks water temps above 25°C in small tank can be deadly.

A Stickleback for example in natural invironment can live up to 4 years the very strong maybe 6 in cold streams. In small captive invironmnets averagely less than 1 year.


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## mort (25 Apr 2019)

Kezzab said:


> Yes, im sure many people just dont give a blahblahblahblah but i also think a lot of people in the hobby do have an affinity for the natural world, but they ve never just stopped to think.



I think we also have to consider that it simply isn't publicised. If we bought a pet/decor here we would assume that it has been bred or collected in a responsible manner. Unfortunately this isn't always the case now and the same can definitely be said for other parts of the world. So we kind of sit in a happy ignorance until we discover something is wrong. 
Our hobby will always have an impact even if we collect our own materials but I do think it has a more positive aspect as well. With our reefs we know that by sustainably collecting fish and corals we place a "value" on them for local people which means they maintain them rather than dynamite fish, or remove rock for roads or building. The same applies to aquaculture and I think it's this that helps promote ecological management.


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## dean (25 Apr 2019)

we humans collect stuff from plastic traffic cones to real live Elephants and everything in between it’s a bit weird when you think about that 
But we have always brought in things from nature to our homes to decorate them such as holy and ivy during cold northern winters way before it was a Christmas thing 
Now it’s much easier to decorate our homes with exotic and unusual items such as aquaria without thinking about how the items were sourced 

I get videos sent to me from fish collectors and one that I don’t agree with is the amount of clown loach taken from the wild knowing that they will never grown to full size in the average home aquarium  and most will simply die, and because there are so many collectors and the fish are easy to catch the price is on average is only $0.50 (USD) 

Another thing I find strange about aquascaping is why do a lot of designs try to replicate terrestrial scenes instead of celebrating aquatic ones ? Mountains scenes especially seen favourite, therefore the need to use rock that is taken from mountains etc by the tonne and shipped around the world 
What is the ecological cost of this ? 
What is the cost to the planet of the average aquarium or aquascape ?  Tropical fish flown half way across the planet, hardcore ripped from tropical forests, mountains, beeches, quarries, not to mention how the “special” substrate raw materials are from or how it’s made 

So unless we are breeding endangered species to repopulate the wild habitat or educating people about aquatic life  can we say honestly hand on heart or hobby is eco friendly? 

No, I can’t say that 

When I first got into fish keeping in the 70’s there was no thought at all about any of this it was an age of discovery, wildlife programmes, all glass aquaria, heaters, special aquarium lighting  all dazzling things I could spend my pocket money on or put on my list for birthdays or Christmas 


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## zozo (25 Apr 2019)

dean said:


> When I first got into fish keeping in the 70’s there was no thought at all about any of this it was an age of discovery, wildlife programmes, all glass aquaria, heaters, special aquarium lighting
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Once i red a significant quote from <Konrad Lorenz> a famous Austrian Zoologist and it got me thinking in a different direction.



> "Each single cared to death Stickleback contributed more to wildlife preservation than any sign at the wildlife park entrance ever did."



In a way he is spot on and indeed i can reflect myself in this. Because it took quite some failures and death to finaly learn and understand how fragile an aqautic biotope actualy is. Without this experience i would never be able to share and pass this knowledge on to the next generation and hopefully trigger them to learn more about it and appriciate it even more. 

That is what this quote is all about... Morbidity of science in a positive perspective..


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## Ed Wiser (26 Apr 2019)

I think at some time wood and rock will become an environmental issue. Just as corals and live rock became one in saltwater end of the hobby. Most of the corals have been banned from collection as well as mariculture in Indo for the past year. Making the cost of corals rise even higher and many corals are not even found for sale any more. Luckly plants can be grown and many plants that we use are farmed Buce is perhaps the one that is just starting to transition from wild collecting to farming. But rock and Wood is in the same boat as Live rock and even more so as Live rock is farmed in Florida.


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## Ed Wiser (26 Apr 2019)

It's all about money really. People have to make a living and if they make money by cutting down forest and putting in a cash crop that is what they will do. It is really how does one promote the "rainforest" and give those people living there a sustainable living. People need "money" families need to eat.


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## PARAGUAY (26 Apr 2019)

Ed Wiser said:


> It's all about money really. People have to make a living and if they make money by cutting down forest and putting in a cash crop that is what they will do. It is really how does one promote the "rainforest" and give those people living there a sustainable living. People need "money" families need to eat.


Thats the issue wealthy countrys should help the people who in most cases have no way of making a decent life without whatever it is a Palm Oil plantation or agricultural deforestation and we should then ask ourselves if as an example Palm Oil should only be used from sustainable sources and the logging  the same.We are not fooled by petrochemical industries spending thousands on adverts to say they look after the enviroment while polluting water sources in the rainforests and destrying habitats forever


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## dean (26 Apr 2019)

I’ve always wondered if it was possible to buy the rain forest ? 
Surely there’s enough people around the world to contribute and buy it 
But then the problem is how to protect it 

The locals need to eat etc 
There needs to be a way for locals to make money without destroying it 

Eco tourism ?
Yes I know if you increase flights etc you may as well cut down the trees 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PARAGUAY (26 Apr 2019)

It is possible Charles Hamilton James bought 100 acres off the Peruvian goverment rubber stamped in an office somewhere in Lima. He wanted to preserve it  but the authorities failed to mention it was occupied by drug barons and local native Indians continued to fell trees and received a pittance from some illegal company in offices somewhere. These native tribes had been and looked after their home in the rainforest and the rainforest for generations but were pushed into poverty by speculators and authority, Hamilton James discovered the grim truth and ended up feeling a real sense of sorrow for them. These things and solutions are not always clear cut


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## sparkyweasel (27 Apr 2019)

Here's an interesting thing some people are doing to save trees from illegal logging.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/magazine-31650591/buddhist-monk-ordains-trees-to-help-the-environment


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## sciencefiction (27 Apr 2019)

If I was sustaining myself from collecting wild fish where I live, I'd certainly fight for those habitats to be preserved, so I can keep collecting and selling on.


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## Oldguy (27 Apr 2019)

sciencefiction said:


> fish keeping with fish caught locally.



Like most people I stared with pond life and sticklebacks. My father was a keen angler and also kept fish tanks and in the winter months would sometimes come back with very small fish in a wet rag. They typically survived and out grew their tanks and then the old bath tub. They got relocated to the local marl pit, a fantastic place as it was also the cooling water for a large steam boiler and associated machinery. The pit was also know by us kids as 'The Steam Pool', a section of which never froze and was always stuffed with plants and pond life.

As a teenager I have kept chub with silver orfe in an aquarium and chub are very attractive but grew rather fast. Stone loach from the local canal were always a better bet and loved small worms.

My first book on 'Aquariums' was my fathers and was written pre WWI, it even had a section on how to make aquariums. It was written for adults but contained chapters on pond life. It even had a Tropical Chapter which I followed. The water was heated with a small paraffin heater under the tank which sat on a converted wooden apple box. I cracked the bottom glass in a hard winter with the wick too high. Oh misery.

As an adult I successfully keep locally caught minnows in a small garden pond. Minnows in breeding colours are very beautiful.

Most native aquatic pond plants grow well in the home aquarium, typically low tech. Aquatic plants from rivers and brooks are difficult to impossible to acclimatize ie pond water crowsfoot grows well, floating leaves as well as submerged leaves; chalk stream crowsfoots no floating leaves, I found difficult. Water parsnips impossible. May of cause be different with a CO2 system. The chalk stream plants have a constant flow of bicarbonates around their leaves and this may be key to their growth.

The high oxygen fish like trout will need a chilled tank. I have seen a large set up when on a visit to the Social Club of a chemical works many years ago. The system ran through a beer cooler. The tank was hard- scaped and plant free.

Happy memories.

PS where I currently live, my wife and I have a garden pond, no fish, just lots of 'stuff'.


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## castle (27 Apr 2019)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, They have quite high water quality requirements, you only find them in relatively highly oxygenated flowing water.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Not entirely true I was under the impression that they are abundant where there is water (in the south), but they are highly active fish - I did keep a handful as a kid in a larger tank and they didn't last too long (tank was about 100l). Edit - on second thoughts, I have no idea how oxygenated a fishing spot of my youth was is. Though you're more likely to find them in a river than a lake.

@dean  as for why they die, I think that's covered in the above sentence. I'm not a biologist so I don't know really. I suspect if i had a 3000L tank they'd do just fine.


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