# BGA - How does my hypothesis sound?



## Soilwork (6 Mar 2017)

Main focus - high production of dissolved organics and high BOD/low oxygen levels.

I was using Eco complete.  Had all other types of algae but not BGA.  Switched to soil BGA.  Not straight away mind.  Took a couple of weeks but the days I noticed it more prominently was the couple of days after I moved my spraybar below the water line to prevent co2 gassing out.

This could be coincidence but BGA appeared last time i used soil.

Tap water TDS is about 60ppm yet with pretty minimal dosing it sits at 315 despite a 50% water change not too days ago.  I think it's safe to say the soil or my previously established JBL 1501e is having to do some pretty serious work.  Soil has only been in a fortnight roughly so I doubt I have the bacterial colonies required at substrate level to keep up with the current organic loading (soil)

Perhaps o2 is low.  Low enough to induce such a pest.  Is it a pest? Or does it sense a failing Eco system and proliferate engineered by nature to save the day by providing oxygen for any potential life forms? A question for another thread.

So if it hasn't become overly clear at present I'm not the most astute at growing aquarium plants.  I've had trouble.  Perhaps too much light and too little co2.  So the plants at currently are probably offering little in the way of oxygenation and are actually 'taking without giving'  exacerbating the low o2 issue.

I haven't cleaned my fiter for a good while too and it's clear from my TDS that water changes during the soil submergence period have been somewhat lacking.

My plan:

*Begin to perform 50% water changes every other day to reset TDS.

*Increase surface agitation

*reduce light

*increase co2

*clean canister filter

How do you think this will go and does anyone believe the hype about increasing No3 levels being a direct fix? I can only think that no3 is low in the first place due to a slow in aerobic nitrification due to low o2/high organics and that adding no3 helps plants to grow and oxygenate roots/water column.

Thanks


----------



## Paulo Soares (6 Mar 2017)

Evening...
I believe you´re complicating too much.

Please do put here your entire set up, routines, and of course some photos so that we can observe.

Many thanks


----------



## Soilwork (6 Mar 2017)

Hi Paulo,

Tank is 85 litres.  Chihiros A series at setting 5 was at setting 7.  I've tried many light levels (probably too many) even running 2 x A series 60cm at full power before now but now im using1 at level 5.

JBL 1501e at full flow using a spraybar mounted along the back wall.  2kg fire extinguisher with CO2Art regulator.  I don't have a drop checker because it broke but I have one coming in the mail.  PH meter broken too as it was dropped. 

Light come on at 12-9pm and co2 runs from 10am-8pm now running maybe 3-4 bubbles per second.  This is to compensate for lots of surface agitation.

I'm using newly submerged john innes number 1 soil and dose 1/5th EI macros as my plant mass is low and the soil contains a small amount of additional Fertilisers.  I have crushed coral in the filter and magnesium sulphate to buffer soft water.

I have Monte Carlo, p.helferi, rotala macrandra, bacopa monieri, rotala wallichii, ludwigia repens, hygrophila pinnatifida, Pogostemon stellatus and Pogostemon erectus, alternanthera reinekii.

3 ottos, 3 harlequin Rasbora, 3 cherry barbs, 5 Amano shrimp, 5 red cherry shrimp and 3 horned nerite snails.


----------



## alto (6 Mar 2017)

Post a photo if possible - it puts everyone on the same page re no assumptions 

I'm a believer in mineralizing soil before use in aquaria so you might try that next time

BGA = Blue Green Algae or ???

I'm dubious about low nitrate & algae, I always run my tanks with maximum 5ppm nitrates as I keep fish from very "clean" waters


----------



## sgdiscus (9 Mar 2017)

Soilwork said:


> My plan:
> 
> *Begin to perform 50% water changes every other day to reset TDS.
> 
> ...



I like this plan!

Not clear how old is your tank or how long have the plants been in your tank. But I have a few additional thoughts for your considerations:

1. 





Soilwork said:


> does anyone believe the hype about increasing No3 levels being a direct fix?


 - I don't think there will ever be 1 factor/component direct fix. It is all about balance. To achieve balance, we would have to know what is the start state of water conditions and health of plants. Some plants were bought from suppliers who grew them emerged but take time to transit into submerged form in our tanks. The deterioration during the transition adds to the excess nutrients in the water column. There are many factors... for example CO2 diffusing kit being used, nutrients components in the soil etc. 

2. 3-4 bubbles per second - I usually count the number of bubbles in 1 min and divide up by 60 secs to have a better feel. Do note that it is not the most accurate gauge of CO2 level. Some hobbyists uses the ph/kh table to measure the CO2 in terms of ppm. I use both to have a better sense.

3.  CO2 gassing off vs Aeration in tank to have higher O2 level. When I set up my sump tank with plants in it... I had to make a choice. So armed with a ph Pen, I measured the ph of the tank before and after the CO2 come on. I also took into consideration how long it would empty my 1.5 litre CO2 tank to achieve the level of CO2 that I wanted in my 495 litre tank (with sump). I was able to drop my ph from 7 to 6.6. Based on a kH of 2 to 3 (according to the ph/kh Chart in Tom Barr's report), theoretically, I achieved a CO2 of 19 to 28.5 ppm. My current lighting duration is 5 hours 3pm to 8pm. CO2 is on for 6 hours from 2pm to 8pm. To deal/mitgate with BBA, I have two air stones in my sump throughout the day to increase O2 level to help nitrification (i also have wild discus). This consumption pattern empties the 1.5 litre CO2 tank in about 3 months. I have a LFS within 10min drive from my home which does a 1 for 1 replacement. CO2 is 'relatively' cheaper, easier and less frustrative to replace compared to spending time to get rid of algae and BBA... for me the choice was easier. Do note also that I live in an area whereby humidity is high so perhaps the loss of CO2 from water to atmosphere is lower.

4. Transition of plants from emerged to submerged form. There is a theory that as plants transit, they may not be as efficient in utilising nutrients. I remember reading some posts about this. The point here is that it is possible that you may not see much growth in newly added plants in your tank even with increased NO3 and when there is an excess of nutrients and the plants are not doing well, there will be an algae bloom. Many people will then commonly associate this with too much NO3. But if they had increase the NO3 in relations to the growth of the plants, they may find algae issues to be more manageable. (for my tank, I have accepted that scrubbing GSA once a week from the lower reaches of my tank is part and parcel of maintenance).

5. I change my filter wool in my sump once every 3 weeks. Replacing dirty and clogged filter wool is the most efficient method in getting rid of excess organics.


----------



## Soilwork (9 Mar 2017)

Thanks Sgdiscus.

The soil has been in 2 and a half weeks so not really that long.  The BGA is only a little bit at the corner in the soil at the front.  You can see it sandwiched between the soil and eco complete layers.

I installed a drop checker the night before last.  When I come home from work 2 hours in to the photoperiod drop checker was blue.  I wondered how this was possible so I rotated my spraybar down more to decrease surface agitation.  Fish started acting strange.  I took a closer look at the drop checker and noticed a second bubble in the swan neck part of the glass.  I took the checker out and blew out the bubble put the DC back in and within 20 mins the DC turned lime! I know I have enough co2.  I turned it down a little bit and put surface agitation back to how it was.

My light is lower now.  Setting number 4 on the Chihiros A series.  I had 2 fixtures running on full power which caused lots of problems.  Things are calmer now.  I have good growth in some plants but not in others.

I don't think I have been changing water with enough regularity and I'm also questioning the hardness of my water.  It's very soft with 10ppm calcium and 1.4ppm magnesium so a 40 litre water change only gives me about 5ppm magnesium and 40ppm calcium for the week.  I have snails and shrimp. Do you think this is enough calcium/magnesium? I ask because most of my plant leaves even though appear healthy tend to curl back on theirselves. What would/could cause this.  I think if I find the answer to that then things will be ok.

Other problems are that I'm scared of putting in too many fertilisers whilst the soil settles.  John innes is supposed to contain a small amount of additional ferts that can last months so is adding EI really necessary?  I don't want to displace heavy metals from the soil in to the water column and I know there is a lot going on with the soil/soil water chemistry right now.

I have some RO water I could use to 'cleanse' my unknown cocktail that is my aquarium water and just replenish with EI nutrients and see if this helps.  I've been adding daily EI on and off but after a few days with no sign of improvement I get put off adding more and more and just stop.


----------



## Paulo Soares (9 Mar 2017)

Soilwork said:


> JBL 1501e at full flow using a spraybar mounted along the back wall. 2kg fire extinguisher with CO2Art regulator. I don't have a drop checker because it broke but I have one coming in the mail. PH meter broken too as it was dropped.
> 
> Light come on at 12-9pm and co2 runs from 10am-8pm now running maybe 3-4 bubbles per second. This is to compensate for lots of surface agitation.
> 
> I'm using newly submerged john innes number 1 soil and dose 1/5th EI macros as my plant mass is low and the soil contains a small amount of additional Fertilisers. I have crushed coral in the filter and magnesium sulphate to buffer soft water.



Evening:
My attack plan for you.

Filter:
Your filter should only contain filter pad and ceramics. Nothing else. 
First of your problems is to much flow and water agitation. Way too much indeed. A 1501 Jbl for an 85 Liter tank? 
Why? I´m even surprised how you didn´t get allready BBA...
You dont´t need to have so much movement on the water. Please do not believe in myths and stuff that is being for too long in the web such as having a filter that needs to do 10 times the tank liter capacity and or such kind of movement of the water and so on.. do you see any ADA or Tropica tank performing such things? No you don´t! 
As long as you have just a little water agitation on the surface you are allready delivering/mixing enough O2.

Took off the spray bar and insert the original tubes pointing the outflow in to the direction of the CO2 in order to have a good dissolution of it. Regulate the output power cause as i said you have too much flow. 

CO2: 
You really need to forget that stuff of 2,3 4 or 5 bubbles counting.. what you really need is *observation*!
Buy a JBL CO2 reagent and insert 2 ML of it inside the Drop Checker. Don´t use any handmade store reagent solution! Don´t use also "Cal-Aqua reagent solution. Please do use JBL. 
Your goal is to have a transparent green one hour after the lights on. A transparent green is a truly reliable mark of having more than neough CO2. 
Don´t rely in bubble counter measures, KH PH tables, just forget it. Use your eyes and observation.
In a couple of days you should have it done. And since that don´t touch it no more. 

Fertilizer:
Your substrate  provide some nutrients to roots and that is ok so don´t worry about it. But If i were you i end imediately with that "EI" stuff. Stop dosing "EI" for a complete day. Than perform a 50% WC to "clean" your water.

Buy the Tropica Specialised and Premium fertiliser and dose each day and you wont´have to worry about what your tap water does have ot not have about calcium, MG and so on.
4 Push of Specialised and 2 of Premium each day. (A photo of the tank would help to advise better)

As you don´t insert any image i can´t figure out how much of BGA we´re talking about but no matter.
After previous recomendations done, i would performa WC routine in these terms (Also Removing manually all algae that you can):

First week - 50 % each day
Second Week - 50% day in day out
Third week - 20 to 30% each day

After these three weeks do a Filter maintenance. 
After: Two WC a week of 20 to 30 %

And finnaly the main cause of all issues... the Light. 
You dont´say what "CHI" is that one but according to the 60 cm reference i believe you have 6000 Lumens with only one of those in full power. So one "CHI" is more than enough for your tank at list for now to BALANCE things and in the future you may consider using both. But for now connect only one in a 80% power so that you´ll be able to accomplish around 4000 Lumens. (Remember our goal now is to kill the BGA).
When the third week ends and doing the routines i said please get back and if the is ok than you can dose a bit more pumps of Tropica Ferts and increase light to 6000 Lumens or in other words put that one "CHI" in full power.

If you don´t want to do this you´ll always have the BlackOut solution.. but by that way your plants will suffer.

This is what i would do in this case. 

Best regards,


----------



## Soilwork (9 Mar 2017)

Hi Paulo,

Thanks for your detailed response.  Ill post some pictures when i get home.  I just have filter foam, and ceramics in the filter along with a bit of crushed coral.  I purchased this 1501e for a 180 litre tank as I was running with a fluval 205.  By the time i added the spray bar to the tank using the 205 the flow had been reduced.  I added a spraybar to deliver co2 more evenly and to accommodate an inline diffuser.  I had grown many types of algae in the 180 litre including BGA with the low flow.  In fact, adding more flow was when the algae disappeared in conjuction with increased water changed and a reduction in micro nutrients.  The 180 litre was originally a Walstad tank so it was quite severely polluted considering i was using John Innes number 3.  I subsequently tore down the 180 litre because of maintenance issues.  The size was becoming problematic and getting around the tank was impossible with it being station in a chimney breast alcove.  The JBL was new however and i didn't want to have to buy a new filter or try selling the JBL.  I did think myself that it might be too much but when i hooked it up it wasnt that bad.  I will take note of your thoughts though and will reduce the flow somewhat using the control switch on the outflow.

I dont have much algae.  Just a bit of Cyanobacteria a long the front which is common.  It just appeared more quickly when i reduced the surface agitation for a couple of days which got me on to this thread.  I do admit i over think things a little but i have also managed to carpet monte carlo initially in this tank with the same filter so i do not believe that flow is the issue.  I had a BBA outbreak after a few weeks dosing aquarium plant food trace mix target EI levels of iron.  I had fish and shrimp deaths as well as severe stunting and deformation of almost all plants.  I got terrible BBA and other types of algae.  Not BGA though.

I added soil so i didnt have to worry about micro nutrient dosing but have continued to use EI for the macros.  I supplement everything NPK Mg.  The soil has added NPK possibly Mg so i wonder whether my low level of calcium is being exacerbated by high levels of Mg and K since these nutrients compete somewhat.  I'm goiong to upload so pictures that reinforce my thoughts to see what people think.

Thanks and stay tuned.

Regards 

Craig


----------



## Soilwork (9 Mar 2017)

Ok for those that are following.  Pic heavy post coming.  This is the current plant status.

Here is drop checker 4 hours in to photoperiod  (just got home) Hopefully that should eliminate poor co2.  

Next up are curled/melting plants 



 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Note the curling on p.heferi leaves.  They were perfectly healthy early soil and pre soil.

Alternanthera is going green and lower leaves are getting algae covered.  Also they are crinkled and the new leaves are small and deformed.

The ludwigia in the third pic I only bought on Sunday.  New growth small and deformed (might still be in emersed stage too)

Hygrophila pinnatifida in fourth pic.  Pale new growth and leaf tips curling back on themselves.

Pic 5 more twisted alternanthera.

Pic 6 droopy curled leaves on Monte Carlo that grows straight up.

Pic 7 twisted/curled leaves on bacopa the only plant that appears to be doing well as in it is actually growing.

Pic 8 surface scum

Pic 9 a poor excuse for rotala wallichii.

Light on one Chihiros has been running at level 4 of 7 for the past 3-4 days so about 60%.  

Keep watching.  More pics to follow....


----------



## Soilwork (9 Mar 2017)

Now in the tank I also have a p.stellatus that has stalled and p.erectus that I bought in sunday which hasn't grown at all.

Now here are pics before the soil using just Eco complete.  Note light intensity was much much higher and so things were much much worse.

I also had severe BBA in this period.

Notice the white tips on all plants. Odd growth from rotala wallichii that was trying to switch to emersed.  Crippled S.repens etc



 

 

 

 

 

 

 

More pics coming if you like pics.


----------



## Soilwork (9 Mar 2017)

So here is the same tank one less than one week after installing my new FE and only just started with EI with the same JBL filter 

BBA just starting to creep in and chlorosis appearing on s.repens.

Good growth 4 days after adding soil below before and after pic.



 

 

 

And just a flash from the past. 

These pictures are if my 180 litre after I cleaned it up added more flow and stopped dosing micros.  My plant mass grew and grew and I was adding macros but they were probably just being swallowed up straight away but looking closely.  Look at some of the curled leaves on the swords in particular and some of the Anubias leaves.

They are curled for a reason but why??



 



 



 

I've had good EI nutrient dosing through all this and I've lost faith in the concept particularly when more water is ultra soft TDS just taken now 44ppm.

Help me find the answer.  

Cheers 

Craig


----------



## Daveslaney (9 Mar 2017)

What is your Gh and Kh?
If your TDS is only 44 I should imagine really low.
Curled leaves on plants can often be a sign of calcium deficiency?
Although not usually on swords.


----------



## Soilwork (9 Mar 2017)

Curling is on all plants at present.  GH is about 1.5dGh according to water report not sure on KH but it's low.


----------



## Daveslaney (9 Mar 2017)

This could be the answer to the curled leaves on your plants.
You are starting with low GH and KH from your tap water, So your calcium levels are low. So your water changes will not add to these.
Co 2 injection will decrease your KH levels in your aquarium. The peat in your soil substrate will decrease your GH levels. Think it exchanges the magnesium and calcium ions for sodium ions not really sure about this but it definitely has a lowering effect on the GH.
I would try adding a commercial GH booster or calcium carbonate to your water at your water changes to increase your GH and KH and calcium levels and see if the curled leaves situation improves.


----------



## Soilwork (9 Mar 2017)

Thanks Daveslaney.  I'm already thinking along these lines so I'm due calcium chloride any day now.  I'm going to mix this with magnesium sulphate and dose this. 

What you say about the peat is true etc.  Although I read on here that John innes no3 makes water harder but I didn't know how this was possible unless there's a lot of lime in it. 

It's also possible that the extra NPK in the soil and my NPK+Mg EI dosing had further interrupted the uptake of calcium. 

Tonight I did back to back 90% water changes.  My TDS is come down from 300+ to 90ppm so a lot closer to tap.  My co2 is good and light is not high so I'm going to lay off the NPK macros for a week or so and just add the buffer.  See if things improve.


----------



## PARAGUAY (10 Mar 2017)

You could use a propriety GH Booster from sponsers and see how it goes


----------



## Daveslaney (10 Mar 2017)

Don't really know the make up of the john innes soil just assumed it was a peat based formula.
However don't think it's a case of your soil or your EI dosing preventing your plants calcium intake, More of a case of as your tap water GH is so low in the first place there is very little calcium in your water for your plants to use.


----------



## Soilwork (10 Mar 2017)

PARAGUAY said:


> You could use a propriety GH Booster from sponsers and see how it goes



I thought about it but decided to order calcium chloride and more magnesium sulphate.


----------



## Soilwork (10 Mar 2017)

Daveslaney said:


> Don't really know the make up of the john innes soil just assumed it was a peat based formula.
> However don't think it's a case of your soil or your EI dosing preventing your plants calcium intake, More of a case of as your tap water GH is so low in the first place there is very little calcium in your water for your plants to use.



Well it does say it has excellent buffering capacity and that it doesn't support 'lime hating' plants which would suggest it contains a fair amount of lime.  Maybe there is too much calcium considering I added crushed coral to the soil and to the filter.  But this problem occurred using eco complete before I had crushed coral in the filter something is off.


----------



## dw1305 (10 Mar 2017)

Hi all,





Soilwork said:


> . Look at some of the curled leaves on the swords in particular and some of the Anubias leaves.
> 
> They are curled for a reason but why??


They look fine. 

Leaves are "designed" to collect light, if the leaves were vertical they wouldn't be in the best position to intercept the PAR. 

For a rosette plant once the leaves are in the light there isn't any imperative for them to grow up, they just need to grow out to intercept the light. For a vertical light source (like your aquarium light or the sun) a horizontal leaf will have maximum interception. Stem leaves naturally grow horizontally, but for a taller rosette plant, the leaves will naturally arch. 

You can actually see the light "blazing" from the horizontal surfaces.


Soilwork said:


>





Soilwork said:


> Although I read on here that John innes no3 makes water harder but I didn't know how this was possible unless there's a lot of lime in it.


You add lime, and the "loam" component is usually agricultural soil, so likely to have both lime present (and a highish CEC).





Daveslaney said:


> Don't really know the make up of the john innes soil just assumed it was a peat based formula.


 Loam based, have a look at <"JI Manufacturers' Association"> for all you need to know about JI composts..

cheers Darrel


----------



## Soilwork (15 Mar 2017)

I think Paulo was on to something. I came across this thread as a potential reason why my MC was persistently growing upwards.   At 16x flow rate NOT including filter media and hoses etc I just had way too much.  You could argue plants see more flow in natural systems but the species may have adapted to certain niches in flow pattern (between rocks or in lower current areas).  Most being submerged only 50% of the time or less due to seasonal water level changes would place less stress on leaf uptake of leaf nutrients etc. 

In a glass box of fairly uniform flow there is just no escape.  I don't suppose a small foreground plant grown at smaller depths in the wild is subject to large amounts of flow?

Could my flow have been causing mechanical stress and decreasing nutrient absorption? Flow is good no doubt but there has to be such thing as too much.  Just looking at my MC dancing violently in the flow was enough to make me turn it down to just above 50%.

Time will tell.


https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/is-too-much-flow-bad.33876/page-2


----------

