# I think I did something really stupid....



## Achilles1 (12 Jan 2015)

I'm afraid I made a mistake that killed my rainbowfish. I did a 50% water change and filled my tank with cold water (as I always do). Since this week I had 6 pseudomogil Furcatus in my tank. After the wc five of them died almost instantly. I never had this with my Otocinclus, but maybe the rainbowfish are more sensitive. The normal temperature of my tank is around 25 C.

Is it possible that a sudden drop in temperature killed my fish?


----------



## ian_m (12 Jan 2015)

Dechlorinator?


----------



## Achilles1 (12 Jan 2015)

If I use that? No.


----------



## dw1305 (12 Jan 2015)

Hi all,





Achilles1 said:


> I'm afraid I made a mistake that killed my rainbowfish. I did a 50% water change and filled my tank with cold water (as I always do). Since this week I had 6 pseudomogil Furcatus in my tank. After the wc five of them died almost instantly. I never had this with my Otocinclus, but maybe the rainbowfish are more sensitive. The normal temperature of my tank is around 25 C. Is it possible that a sudden drop in temperature killed my fish?


 Yes.

cheers Darrel


----------



## nayr88 (12 Jan 2015)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, Yes.
> 
> cheers Darrel


 +1 

Sorry mate but you need to warm the water before had and use  dechlorinator ...
My method had always been to have a bucket with an internal filter chucked in to circulate the water and mix it up good. I had a heater in there too. Doesn't have to be for long, but straight from the tape is a no no.


----------



## Martin in Holland (13 Jan 2015)

Any fish (even goldfish) get a shock from temperature fluctuations, make sure that the water you dump in you tank is the same temp. as the water in it (1 degree different is OK) and of course dechlorinate.


----------



## ale36 (13 Jan 2015)

i was once advised not to use hot water from the tap when doing wc.
I normally fill a bucket with water then letting it come to room temp either overnight or over a few hours before WC. I've not had many issues with that but would any one know why the hot water tap is not recommended?


----------



## ian_m (13 Jan 2015)

Not too sure about temperature drop, I used to fill straight from cold tap via hose, tank used to drop to 15-18C, no fish problems. In fact most of the fish seemed to like to swim in the incoming cold water. BUT what I did do is always 100% without fail, was dose the tank with dechlorinator (AmQuel+ in my case), enough for the whole tank. Make sure filters are off when filling, as the filter bacteria are very susceptible to chlorine/chloramine in incoming water.

If you didn't use dechlorinator that could be your issue. In UK chloramine is often emergency injected into water network after leaks and/or issues and this has been known to wipe out aquariums for those silly enough not to use dechlorinator. Seachem prime is cheap and 250ml will dechlorinate 10,000litres of water. Will try and find the link to guy who lost £700 worth of fish after a burst water main repair and chloramine was injected to sterilise the water main repair and he didn't bother with dechlorinator.


----------



## Andy D (13 Jan 2015)

Achilles where are you based?

I would say dechlorinator is a must.

Any idea how cold the water was. In winter our cold water can be 8/9 degrees so quite a drop from a 25 degree tank.


----------



## dw1305 (13 Jan 2015)

Hi all, 





ian_m said:


> Not too sure about temperature drop, I used to fill straight from cold tap via hose, tank used to drop to 15-18C, no fish problems.


  I must admit I don't worry too much about matching the temperature, but I only change small volumes of water. 

I think the effect will definitely depend upon the fish, bigger fish will survive better than smaller ones, and it will be less of a thermal shock in larger volume tanks. 

For me the main issue is that  mains water will be at something like 4 - 8oC at present. 

If your tank is fairly small volume, runs at 25oC, and you change 1/2 the water, you will get a rapid temperature drop from 25oC to ~17oC (25 - 6 = 19, 19/2  = 8.5, 25 - 8.5 = 16.5), and that is going to see of a lot of smaller fish. 





ian_m said:


> f you didn't use dechlorinator that could be your issue. In UK chloramine is often emergency injected into water network after leaks and/or issues and this has been known to wipe out aquariums for those silly enough not to use dechlorinator. Seachem prime is cheap and 250ml will dechlorinate 10,000litres of water. Will try and find the link to guy who lost £700 worth of fish after a burst water main repair and chloramine was injected to sterilise the water main repair and he didn't bother with dechlorinator


 Chloramine is a real problem, <"on the plec keeping forums there were reports of an epidemic of deaths in 2010/11">, when we had a lot of freezing damage to water mains and emergency water main treatment. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## ian_m (13 Jan 2015)

Here you go 22 aquariums wiped out due to emergency chloramine.
http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/410456-22-aquariums-wiped-out/

Also just reading that HMA filters may not work on chloramine as well. The HMA carbon filter breaks chloramine to chlorine and ammonia, chlorine get absorbed but ammonia passes straight through, so recommendation with HMA filter is to always use Amquel+ to remove excess ammonia on filtered water.


----------



## dw1305 (13 Jan 2015)

Hi all, 





ian_m said:


> Here you go 22 aquariums wiped out due to emergency chloramine.
> http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/410456-22-aquariums-wiped-out/


 Things like this remind me of why I use rain-water.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Edvet (13 Jan 2015)

ian_m said:


> cold tap via hose, tank used to drop to 15-18C, no fish problems.


 Same for me, i don't experience problems with a temp drop, maybe/probably has to do with the speed of the change. I know in nature watertemparatures can fluctuate hugely too, most notably day/night.


----------



## Another Phil (13 Jan 2015)

ale36 said:


> i was once advised not to use hot water from the tap when doing wc.
> I normally fill a bucket with water then letting it come to room temp either overnight or over a few hours before WC. I've not had many issues with that but would any one know why the hot water tap is not recommended?


 
I believe the advice not to use hot water from the tap is due to copper immersion tanks causing a build up of copper if the water stands in the tank for a long time. If your water is heated by gas so it only heats up while the water is actually running it won't be a problem.

cheers phil


----------



## ian_m (13 Jan 2015)

Another Phil said:


> copper immersion tanks causing a build up of copper if the water stands in the tank for a long time


Yes but I think largely an old wives tale. Copper pipe is attacked by hot soft low pH water, but my "Copper Tube in Domestic Water Services Design and Installation" book states that there are no UK companies that supply water that will attack copper as the water is treated to remove acidity before delivery. However water above 60C, if stored for a "long time", what ever that is, will "soften" and dissolve copper over a number of years. It states "copper is not a toxic metal" if in the water.


----------



## Andy D (13 Jan 2015)

When I used tap water I would always mix hot and cold to get the right temperature. It was from a gas boiler so no issues.


----------



## Paulo Soares (13 Jan 2015)

Edvet said:


> Same for me, i don't experience problems with a temp drop, maybe/probably has to do with the speed of the change. I know in nature watertemparatures can fluctuate hugely too, most notably day/night.



From my point of view and experience here you have the cause.. *to fast that waterchange*. 
I always did (as my friends here in Portugal) WC directly from the TAP. Linking a hose witch is pumping right above the thermostat ... slowly introducing tap water that is being mixed as i do not turn off the filter (only reduce a bit the strenght menawhile is filling the tank). The INFLOW is always under water so i don´t need to turn off the filter. Filling the tank with the filter working so the temperature never goes down more than a 1 or 2 degrees. 

I do not even use any Declo..  or anti something (never did) .. cause our tapwater is pretty good as analyses reveal. And very reach in calcium, magnesium, iron, and others. 

I never had a fish dead cause of this. 
Best regards


----------



## GHNelson (13 Jan 2015)

Mixing from a combination boiler is okay as the water is drawn straight from the mains pipe.......and heated almost emmediately! 
Still add water dechlorinator though! 
hoggie


----------



## ian_m (13 Jan 2015)

Paulo Soares said:


> do not even use any Declo..  or anti something (never did) .. cause our tapwater is pretty good as analyses reveal


The problem is, when there is ever a water supply issue and emergency chlorine & chloramine is added to the water, you won't know until all your fish die and all the bacteria in your filters die. Thus, in most first world countries, you should always use dechlorinator. If you know your water company only uses chlorine and will only ever use chlorine, you can degas your water before used by simply standing it for 24 hours with an air-stone running.

Can always make your own dechlorinator from sodium thiosulphate, 1Kg for £6 will dechlorinate approximately 100,000litres or more of water.


----------



## Paulo Soares (13 Jan 2015)

I´m aware of that but here the water is treated in tanks before it goes to the home chain suply. 
One tank for each region, to treatment than goes to another and only after that is inserted in the chain suply.


----------



## Achilles1 (13 Jan 2015)

I live in the Netherlands. I never heard of anyone using dechlorinator here . But it won't hurt so I will buy it as a precaution. I will not pour cold water immediately in the tank anymore. It was a hard lesson. Thanks for your replies.


Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met behulp van Tapatalk


----------



## ian_m (13 Jan 2015)

Achilles1 said:


> I live in the Netherlands


Netherlands uses other methods to sterilise water, chloramine is one, various other sulphur compounds as well.

This says 95% chlorine free.
http://www.hollandtrade.com/sector-information/water/water-technologies/?bstnum=4931

I seem to remember this low use of chlorine came about, due deployment of a certain type of plastic pipe (leading the world in the 70's, might be polythene) that can react with chlorine leading to chemical issues. This type of pipe not an issue in UK (as not used) and we have to use chlorine due to the poor state of the Victorian water pipes.

Found it, trihalomethanes (carcinogenic) were found in dutch water supplies in the 70's caused by chlorine, so water purification switched to UV and hydrogen peroxide sterilisation, which costs more but works fine. So might not need dechlorinator in Netherlands. Nice.


----------



## alto (13 Jan 2015)

I don't know how current this brochure is, but contacting the local water treatment company is likely your best source of information



> In mid-2002, Evides decided to add an activated carbon
> filtration unit, pH correction, and chlorine dioxide dosage for
> post-disinfection ...



So sorry for your losses


----------



## Edvet (13 Jan 2015)

Yup no chlorine here, i just throw the garden hose in the tank and let it run a few hours...........


----------



## NC10 (13 Jan 2015)

ian_m said:


> Can always make your own dechlorinator from sodium thiosulphate, 1Kg for £6 will dechlorinate approximately 100,000litres or more of water.



Do you have any more info on this Ian? Is the 1kg per 100,000 litres exact or have just approximated it?


----------



## ian_m (13 Jan 2015)

NC10 said:


> Do you have any more info on this Ian? Is the 1kg per 100,000 litres exact or have just approximated it?


Search ebay for sodium thiosulphate, think dose is 0.1gr per 10litres.

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/chlorine-chloramine


----------



## NC10 (13 Jan 2015)

Nice one, cheers ian.


----------



## brumbird (13 Jan 2015)

I have a friend in the Netherlands I am sure he doesnt dechlorinate.

I looked up your fish on the Seriously Fish database and it does say that the temp in their natural environment rarely fluctuates and that they tend to fare poorly unless maintained at 24-28. 

Bad luck - its a good database to research the requirements of new fish - i always have a look before i buy.something new


----------



## GHNelson (13 Jan 2015)

Hi
It would be a  good idea if the avatar had the members location.....as this gives a better indication of the circumstances that they may encounter within their area/region/country.
hoggie


----------



## Another Phil (13 Jan 2015)

Hi Achilles1,
Sounds like brumbird above has the answer, some fish are more sensitive. You're probably fine in summer, but need to heat it in winter as the ground temp is a lot lower.



ian_m said:


> Yes but I think largely an old wives tale. Copper pipe is attacked by hot soft low pH water, but my "Copper Tube in Domestic Water Services Design and Installation" book states that there are no UK companies that supply water that will attack copper as the water is treated to remove acidity before delivery.


 
cheers for that. I'm in an area of Devon which is "moderately soft" and whenever I've tested it it is pH7.2. and there is no corrosion in our pipes, but we get a bit of green staining around the hot tap in the bath. There's never any mineral build up in our kettle, but a little bit where water evaporates around the lid.
I know SWW harden the water but I couldn't find out when they started, and whether it was pre my grandparents and parents telling me not to drink from the hot tap or my insides would go green!
(there was also the run-the-tap-before-drinking-from-it which is probably a holdover from when lead pipes were used!)
phil

argh. That burning spell is from the cooking onions I forgot while writing this.


----------



## wijnands (13 Jan 2015)

The use of chemical disinfectants such as chlorine is no longer allowed in the Netherlands except for emergencies. Such emergencies are almost always published to the public and they are quite rare to be honest. Dutch law also specifies that during normal operations if chlorine or chloramine is found in the water then sodium thiosulfate must be added to neutralise it. As a result few fishkeepers here use conditioners because it's not necessary.

In general water here is of a constant and very high quality and like almost all other European countries lab test results are readily available to the public.

PErsonally I never bother to match temperatures. I just syphon in the water in a 6mm hose and lace it with some thawed cyclops or other small snack. As a result my fish are conditioned that fresh cold water is a good thing but I hardly ever do more than a 35% change in one go and the new water goes in over 90-120 minutes. 

I think in this case temperature shock may have been the issue. Poisoning via the tap water is very unlikely.


----------



## Martin in Holland (14 Jan 2015)

The water quality here in China is always fluctuating, I always use prime just to be on the safe side, I also always match water temp. as I seem to have read this and I change 50% of my water in 30 minutes or less (300 liter tank). So you guys think that I don't need to do this?


----------



## alto (14 Jan 2015)

Martin in China said:


> The water quality here in China is always fluctuating, I always use prime just to be on the safe side, I also always match water temp. as I seem to have read this and I change 50% of my water in 30 minutes or less (300 liter tank). So you guys think that I don't need to do this?



Much depends on the health of your fish & some species are definitely more sensitive to fluctuating parametres than others - not sure how much this is inherent in the fish & how much is a reaction to the manner in which we keep them (strange (inappropriate?) foods, bright lights, extreme space limitations, "dirty" water, enforced interactions with non-compatible ie stressful tankmates etc, etc).
Generally a healthy (thriving) fish is well able to deal with single stressors, but start compiling the stressors & fish pathogens increase dramatically (even before we recognise signs of disease) which means fewer resources left for absorbing the impact of temperature changes, pH changes, chemical challenges (not just the basic ammonia, chlorine, nitrite, nitrate etc that most consider).

If you do frequent 25% water changes, it's often possible to ignore balancing of new vs old water; perform 70% water changes (especially over a short interval, think python system & 10 min total time) & fewer fish are going to thrive longterm with these fluctuations (part of this fish response may be due to impact on the cycle bacteria) - don't forget that ammonia/chlorine/nitrite/nitrate (& so on) damage is often permanent, so over time, damage becomes cumulative.
If you do infrequent water changes, then tank water parametres (not just the few we might measure with limited test kits) may drift quite far from tap water, now even that 25% water change may be significant.

Some fish are also more sensitive to the mechanical act of water changes, tank maintenance, external vibrations/noises ...


----------



## ian_m (14 Jan 2015)

Another Phil said:


> green staining around the hot tap


Generally this is nothing to do with copper pipes, occurs with plastic piping as well, but is due to dezincifcation of the "non water board compliant" parts in the brass in taps (or other fittings). This is seen on very old taps as well as more modern Chinese cheap taps (and fittings), the hot soft water dissolves the zinc in the brass allowing the remaining copper to be attacked. Easily fixed by using resistant brass (talks about arsenic preventing it, but I assume not in drinking water ) or stainless steel.

http://hghouston.com/resources/mate...nd-copper-alloys/brasses/dezincification.aspx


----------



## Paulo Soares (14 Jan 2015)

ian_m said:


> Here you go 22 aquariums wiped out due to emergency chloramine.
> http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/410456-22-aquariums-wiped-out/
> 
> Also just reading that HMA filters may not work on chloramine as well. The HMA carbon filter breaks chloramine to chlorine and ammonia, chlorine get absorbed but ammonia passes straight through, so recommendation with HMA filter is to always use Amquel+ to remove excess ammonia on filtered water.




Sorry but what i´ve read is this:

Basically, Scottish Water used to add chlorine to the water, but a few years ago they *realised if they added ammonia....yes....AMMONIA!*!! then they didnt need to add as much chlorine and they could provide better drinking water!


----------



## Paulo Soares (14 Jan 2015)

alto said:


> Much depends on the health of your fish & some species are definitely more sensitive to fluctuating parametres than others - not sure how much this is inherent in the fish & how much is a reaction to the manner in which we keep them (strange (inappropriate?) foods, bright lights, extreme space limitations, "dirty" water, enforced interactions with non-compatible ie stressful tankmates etc, etc).
> Generally a healthy (thriving) fish is well able to deal with single stressors, but start compiling the stressors & fish pathogens increase dramatically (even before we recognise signs of disease) which means fewer resources left for absorbing the impact of temperature changes, pH changes, chemical challenges (not just the basic ammonia, chlorine, nitrite, nitrate etc that most consider).
> 
> If you do frequent 25% water changes, it's often possible to ignore balancing of new vs old water; perform 70% water changes (especially over a short interval, think python system & 10 min total time) & fewer fish are going to thrive longterm with these fluctuations (part of this fish response may be due to impact on the cycle bacteria) - don't forget that ammonia/chlorine/nitrite/nitrate (& so on) damage is often permanent, so over time, damage becomes cumulative.
> ...




For instance.. I don´t do a 50% waterchange as regarding instrutions from most users of "Ei" fert. Cause i always thought as you mentioned. It´s quite a large amount in one time.. and i don´t believe that would do anygood.. changing parameters so abruptly. And in the summer i change three times a week cause of heat and evaporation. 

I do a 30% WC on Wednesday and more 30% on Sunday. It just take a couple of minutes  Simple.


----------



## critch (14 Jan 2015)

Years ago I had a tank with rainbow fish and harlequins & Cory's, water changes used to be matched to 26 degree's, one day the heater failed n the tank temp dropped to 21,
Lost all the rainbow fish and harlequins,

Since then I do cool not cold water changes, I think the fish get used to it, temp drops 4 degree's sometimes, used to send my Cory's into a breeding frenzy,
I'm sure in nature water temperatures fluctuate,
However now
My Discus tank drops 2 degree's during the water change, sets them off laying eggs, oops,


Can you guys get Hma units over there? 
Wish I had discovered them before I kept Discus,


----------



## ian_m (14 Jan 2015)

Paulo Soares said:


> Basically, Scottish Water used to add chlorine to the water, but a few years ago they realised if they added ammonia....yes....AMMONIA!!! then they didnt need to add as much chlorine and they could provide better drinking water!


No the guy was confusing chloramine with ammonia. Scottish water injected chloramine into the water supply to sterilise the water/pipes after a burst pipe, this is very common all around the world (including the Netherlands) if there is ever any chance of contamination of the water during water main repair work. The guy who lost his fish, just preheated and air bubbled his water 24hours before use to remove chlorine (would have also removed ammonia if present as well, so his ammonia theory is clearly wrong), which is fine, but has absolutely no effect on chloramine, as he found out. Also bare in mind carbon filters are not sufficient to remove the effects of chloramine (will work fine on chlorine), in fact can make it worse as break chloramine down to chlorine and ammonia. The chlorine is absorbed but not the ammonia, so further filtration or chemical methods are required.

So, unless you test your water before use, note that most chlorine test kits do not register chloramine, just use dechlorinator to be 100% safe. Prime and sodium thiosulphate don't cost much.


----------



## wijnands (14 Jan 2015)

Martin in China said:


> The water quality here in China is always fluctuating, I always use prime just to be on the safe side, I also always match water temp. as I seem to have read this and I change 50% of my water in 30 minutes or less (300 liter tank). So you guys think that I don't need to do this?



Chinese tap water is, from what I know, ranging from bad to outright dangerous for your health. I'd definitely always use conditioner. A 50% change in 30 minutes is a big temperature shock so I'd do some temp matching.


----------



## Paulo Soares (14 Jan 2015)

Well ok.. altough in Portugal never heard anything regarding problems concerning the water is no big deal to introduce an anti CL.  
No arm doing so probably i´m gonna start doing it. 
Safer to prevent than let it be.. you have a point.

Compliments


----------



## Another Phil (14 Jan 2015)

ian_m said:


> Generally this is nothing to do with copper pipes, occurs with plastic piping as well, but is due to dezincifcation of the "non water board compliant" parts in the brass in taps (or other fittings). This is seen on very old taps as well as more modern Chinese cheap taps (and fittings), the hot soft water dissolves the zinc in the brass allowing the remaining copper to be attacked. Easily fixed by using resistant brass (talks about arsenic preventing it, but I assume not in drinking water ) or stainless steel.
> 
> http://hghouston.com/resources/mate...nd-copper-alloys/brasses/dezincification.aspx


 
Thanks Ian,
some useful info. The taps are very old, so even with the water hardener added by the water co. there can still be some corrosion in  "non water board compliant" fittings?

cheers phil


----------



## ian_m (14 Jan 2015)

Another Phil said:


> there can still be some corrosion in  "non water board compliant" fittings?


Yes. Generally copper pipe gets coated with limescale, either naturally in the water or added by water companies, thus copper (and lead pipe if you still have it) is immune to being attacked, due to the coating. However this is not the case with some brasses, which will be attacked, zinc being removed and copper being attacked. Most pipe fittings are now dezincification proof (and only a small area in contact with water) but taps, especially non UK manufactured taps are often not resistant. In general only a problem with bath taps depositing a green stain on bath, due to frequent use of hot water and bigger areas exposed, not noted to be an issue with taps elsewhere. I suspect not an issue, unless you are frequently drinking from bath taps, just remove green stain with descaler or diet coke or change the taps.


----------



## Another Phil (14 Jan 2015)

Thanks Ian.

Sorry to the OP for going off-topic; a bad habit of mine.
cheers phil


----------



## ian_m (14 Jan 2015)

Another Phil said:


> Sorry to the OP for going off-topic


Not really, we have ascertained that copper did not poison the original posters fish as copper pipework does not add copper to the water supply.


----------



## Achilles1 (27 Jan 2015)

Thanks for all the replies. I really learned a lot.

I'm quite sure the problem was the large difference in water temperature. Two weeks ago I bought 14 Furcati and was more careful with the water changes regarding temperature. Since then I haven't lost a single one. 

It's a shame though that fish had to die for me to learn a lesson 


Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met behulp van Tapatalk


----------



## jellyfish6 (4 Feb 2015)

It is possible to have elevated levels of copper in drinking water - however it is unusual and normally only affects the water that is "standing" in the pipework. See the link below for full details as it depends on lots of factors.  If you do notice a blue discharge from your tap (which normally stains your sink/bath) then run your tap to discharge any sanding water within the pipe before  doing a water change.
dwi.defra.gov.uk/consumers/advice-leaflets/copper.pdf


----------

