# Is Brighty K a Bright Idea?



## sks (14 Jan 2008)

just out of interest, how much does a 5 litre bottle of Brighty K cost?


----------



## james3200 (14 Jan 2008)

about Â£100 delivered from Hong Kong


----------



## sks (16 Jan 2008)

I'm with the DIY dry ferts dosing at the moment. One day I intend to have a lawn like yours and if I have to use ADA to do it, then I will. At the moment I find that the HC clump that I have is getting stronger and stronger, and HC is not as hard as people make out to be.


----------



## Garuf (16 Jan 2008)

I find hc to be, Can't get the stuff to grow nicely its always a funny colour or a slow grower.
How do you find the ADA ferts? Are they as good as people make out?


----------



## Tom (16 Jan 2008)

I've never had algae with ADA, but that's just me. EI for me has gone horribly wrong so far!!   

Tom


----------



## George Farmer (16 Jan 2008)

Garuf said:
			
		

> How do you find the ADA ferts? Are they as good as people make out?



I hope James doesn't mind me jumping in here...

I think the key to success with the ADA fert range is its use in conjuntion with the ADA substrate system.

The ADA Step Series has no NPK, which is compensated for by the uber-rich ADA Power Sand and Aqua Soil.

The ADA Special Brighty Shade and Light has NPK.  The Shade is a diluted version of Lights. 

I also think that most folk have success with ADA stuff because they are generally serious hobbyists.  Otherwise they wouldn't pay the Â£Â£Â£.

They would likely have good results using any method, because they get the basics right i.e. good light, CO2, regualr dosing and water changes.

All this said, I have no personal experience of the ADA range.  I have great results with any of the substrates I've used and either dry ferts or Tropica TPN+.

One day I will try out the complete ADA system and find the comparisons interesting.


----------



## stevet (17 Jan 2008)

ADA stuff seems very over priced to me - surely NPK is NPK whatever medium it is delivered in? I try and use powdered ferts from AE wherever i can - at 400 litres running my tank with ADA stuff would be out of my budget and im reasonably well off!


----------



## ceg4048 (17 Jan 2008)

I have to say I agree 100% with stevet but there is no denying that Tom and many others have experienced difficulty implementing EI and yet when they switched to a different scheme they have had better luck. This seems bizarre to me and I'd really like to understand how this happens. Perhaps Tom you could offer some data regarding the dosing schemes, tank parameters etc. so we could analyze what goes wrong. I know that a lot of times CO2 is a weak link in a scheme. Poor CO2 during a span of a week or two can undermine any dosing scheme and trigger algae making it appear to be the fault of the dosing.

Cheers,


----------



## james3200 (17 Jan 2008)

If this tank was at my home where i could give it more attention i probably wont be dosing ADA ferts. As its in the office, i just hook the dosing pump into the bottles and let it go, an easy solution for the setup + alot of the time i am away from the office so this works great for me as no one else there can be trusted 

EI works great and have had success with it and will be using it in my Dutch tank (at home  )

James


----------



## sks (17 Jan 2008)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> I have to say I agree 100% with stevet but there is no denying that Tom and many others have experienced difficulty implementing EI and yet when they switched to a different scheme they have had better luck. This seems bizarre to me and I'd really like to understand how this happens. Perhaps Tom you could offer some data regarding the dosing schemes, tank parameters etc. so we could analyze what goes wrong. I know that a lot of times CO2 is a weak link in a scheme. Poor CO2 during a span of a week or two can undermine any dosing scheme and trigger algae making it appear to be the fault of the dosing.
> 
> Cheers,



The problem with this is simple, you are dealing with human beings and not robots. The only way for you to correct his problem would be to visit him and see what he's doing that's wrong. Tom  Barr and a lot of other people have moved aquatic gardening to where it should be: cook book recipes that we all follow, hence leading to what we should be concerned about: scaping. I have never crossed to the scaping part simply because all this time I've been listening to the wrong advice and hence have to start again, just getting a nice lawn is the start for me, even though it would a triviality to other people, but unless I cross that line I can't even be bothered to think about scaping.

Lots of people do different things in different ways and they have assumptions/beliefs/faiths at looking at things. It's the latter that can make it all messy. I am in your's and Tom Barr's camp, I subscribe to the scientific method, because it's what all of our modern world is base. But for me to reach a good enough proficiency I'd need to do a lot of work/experimentation. From my point of view, if ADA aqua soil and ferts can get to me what I want quickly (and effortlessly) then I'll do it. I don't have that much time to experiment around.



			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> I also think that most folk have success with ADA stuff because they are generally serious hobbyists. Otherwise they wouldn't pay the Â£Â£Â£.



I personally don't think this is true at all. I think ADA has put a lot of research and effort into making their system the way it is, and Dennerle and dupla have stalled and not bothered to move on.


----------



## George Farmer (17 Jan 2008)

sks said:
			
		

> George Farmer said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You have missed my point, sks.

I am not saying ADA are good or bad.  I like their system.  It works well and is the most user-friendly out there for non-techies.  "Pure" 'scapers i.e. folk that don't like dry chems etc. love it, for good reason.  Their substrate system is probably one of the best in the world.  It allows lots of room for error with under-dosing etc.

What I'm trying to say is that _most_ folk who spend the Â£Â£Â£ on planted tanks, are generally quite serious about wanting good results.  

FYI Dennerle now have NPK products, glassware and T5 lighting.  They have moved on.


----------



## ceg4048 (17 Jan 2008)

sks said:
			
		

> The problem with this is simple, you are dealing with human beings and not robots...



I wouldn't mind being a robot...but I insist on being programmed with aquascaping subroutines written by Dave Spencer and Graeme Edwards..ooh...ooh...I also insist on being programmed to receive awesome free PFK goodies and free lifetime supply of TPN+...subroutine to be written by George Farmer...  


Cheers,


----------



## sks (17 Jan 2008)

George Farmer said:
			
		

> You have missed my point, sks.
> 
> I am not saying ADA are good or bad. I like their system. It works well and is the most user-friendly out there for non-techies. "Pure" 'scapers i.e. folk that don't like dry chems etc. love it, for good reason. Their substrate system is probably one of the best in the world. It allows lots of room for error with under-dosing etc.
> 
> ...



If any of his tanks are to go by, ADA is impressive to say the least. For me a scaper is someone who can produce such displays REGARDLESS of system used.

I've spent Â£Â£Â£s on the Dennerle system, it's never given me good results! It was only after learning about how to grow plants and other fishkeeping issues that things started to settle. It was only after learning about other subtleties that I had my head screwed in straight. I still remember the first time when I started to use Dennerle - way back in 1992 and I was just starting uni - it was the only game in town as far as I was concerned. I didn't know about Tom Barr, or the krib then.

If Dennerle have moved on I'd like to see them:

1) ditching the heating cables. This is a no brainer, we don't need them, full stop. There is no controversy about them, what there is a propaganda being fueled by those who need to sell them. I still have my 50 watts and 75 watts cable transformers for anyone who wants them. I also have a brand new spare undergravel heating cable that cost me Â£100, free for anyone who wants it.
2) stop telling people to use pH controllers, saying that they should be used to control CO2 in the tank
3) stop taliking gibberish about once tank volume per hour flow for filtration etc. . . 
and some more I've forgotten about . .

I now know why people tend to use glassware, because under the bright lights normal Eheim plastic walking sticks will blush and degrade.



			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> PFK have also moved on, especially in the planted tank hobby. Try it - you might like it. Very Happy
> 
> Out of interest - what issue PFK was it? PFK are quite anti-tankbusters these days.


----------



## sks (17 Jan 2008)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> sks said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hopefully what will happen is all these issues with algae and tank maintenance will get resolved and we get to the point where we just buy something due to its design and/or quality. The difference would be like cook your own food or going out to an expensive restaurant.


----------



## George Farmer (17 Jan 2008)

Any new pics, James? 

I reckon this would make a nice PFK feature.  Would you be interested in a reader visit?  Maybe after you've stocked the fish and it's matured a little more.

Keep up the good work mate.


----------



## stevet (17 Jan 2008)

To quote sks,

'From my point of view, if ADA aqua soil and ferts can get to me what I want quickly (and effortlessly) then I'll do it. I don't have that much time to experiment around.' 

and

 'his attitude was "throw money at it" and that should fix it.'

...are perilously close to the same thing. I know what you are saying about ADA - its a regime that is proven to work and im sure their stuff is good - but i am also equally sure a bottle of brighty K can be made up for a fraction of the price with the dry ferts i have in my house mixed with RO water (potassium carbonate)! My point therefore is that EI is as legitimate a regime as Amanao's, it can be made up with dry ferts with info sourced from this site. James has a recipe for a one stop NPK solution in a thread on this site...what was that about homework...?


----------



## George Farmer (17 Jan 2008)

George Farmer said:
			
		

> Any new pics, James?
> 
> I reckon this would make a nice PFK feature.  Would you be interested in a reader visit?  Maybe after you've stocked the fish and it's matured a little more.
> 
> Keep up the good work mate.



An attempt to keep this thread nice and on track...


----------



## sks (18 Jan 2008)

stevet,

that comparison is not fair. ADA know what they are doing and in what bounds. Also you need a reasonable level of knowledge/competence to use their stuff anyway. At least with ADA I know what I'm doing. I don't mind killing plants, I do mind killing fish. And if I had issues I would bother to look further into it, which the person in the article did not even bother, nor did the journalist who wrote the article bothered to tell him to do some reading up. That's the difference.

The guy in the PFK article in question did not even go as far as to bother to understand biological filtration. George puts forward the view that PFK was anti tank busters at the time, which is neither here nor there. I can understand journalistic practices in not tainting the article, but PFK's non intervention and the guy's total utter laziness in putting in any effort was what I had issues with.

ceg4048,

forgot to add, artistic ability (or any qualitative abilities) are not logically computable, otherwise computers would have replaced artists/writers/musicians/ etc. . . long ago. It doesn't work like that. And it's for this reason why I'm still in this hobby, because we will always learn new things, and there is always new things to learn.

On the other hand issues like ferts/maintenance/dosing regimes/lighting etc. . . are all falsifiable and hence we can agree and disprove issues raised with them. That's the mechanical side of the hobby. I need to nail that before I move onto the scaping.

sorry for the interruption James, feel free to spoil my journal thread  .


----------



## George Farmer (18 Jan 2008)

sks said:
			
		

> George puts forward the view that PFK was anti tank busters at the time, which is neither here nor there. .



I said PFK are quite anti-tankbusters "*these* days".  Not "*those*" days.

BTW there's at least two planted articles in there every month.  But if you don't take PFK seriously then I guess you're not interested...


----------



## stevet (18 Jan 2008)

George Farmer said:
			
		

> George Farmer said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I hope the implication here isnt that you think other people hijacked this thread without you being involved George...?


----------



## stevet (18 Jan 2008)

sks said:
			
		

> stevet,
> 
> that comparison is not fair.  .



I said 'perilously close' and not the same thing. I understand the point you are trying to make though. I just feel ADA get away with charging a premium for branding - some would say this is just reward for Takashi's years of hard work and study....?


----------



## George Farmer (18 Jan 2008)

stevet said:
			
		

> George Farmer said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have apologised to James3200 via PM for my part.

I don't think James has an issue with me.  If so I am sorry.

Thanks to Clive for the split too.


----------



## George Farmer (18 Jan 2008)

stevet said:
			
		

> ... I just feel ADA get away with charging a premium for branding - some would say this is just reward for Takashi's years of hard work and study....?



I think this is true to an extent.

In the US, ADA is not particularly expensive - relatively speaking.

I had a long telephone conversation with Richard from Aqua Essentials last night.  We both think the US have a much better deal with ADA.  Whether this is because ADG etc. (US ADA importers) have less profit margin is unclear.  I suspect shipping etc. is cheaper also.  I note ADG have recently had a shipment of 3 containers recently.  That's a lot of ADA gear....  :drool:

Amano is a shrewd businessman, as well as a talented 'scaper and photographer.  

Reward indeed.

BTW you can make up Brighty K yourself.  Potassium carbonate and water.

http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/index.p ... 24550cc256


----------



## Tom (18 Jan 2008)

FROM AE-   



> A solution of 20g K2CO3 + water to make a 500ml will yield something similar to Brighty K.



Would you then use the same doses as you would for Brighty K? I'm considering this as I'm running low on my bottle now.


----------



## George Farmer (18 Jan 2008)

Tom said:
			
		

> FROM AE-
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think so.

email them to make sure.


----------



## james3200 (18 Jan 2008)

> I have apologised to James3200 via PM for my part.
> 
> I don't think James has an issue with me. If so I am sorry.



Nope, no problems. 


Let me know your thoughts Tom, i probably have a couple of months before i need to decide which route i take.


----------



## stevet (18 Jan 2008)

George Farmer said:
			
		

> stevet said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I use this myself. It is good - though i find using it in Brighty K doses means my water is at about 6KH - slightly higher than i would like really. I have reduced the dosage slightly.


----------



## ceg4048 (18 Jan 2008)

K2CO3 + H20? That's it? And 5 liters of this stuff cost Â£100? I guess it's time for a reality check  The EI soup recipe includes the option to add K2SO4, which would have no effect on kH. Additionally, Barr feels that if you are adding sufficient quantities of KNO3 and KH2PO4 then you are adding more than enough K. It's hard to argue with success, and if the system works for you by eliminating guesswork etc then that's fine but what a price to pay for convenience. 

Cheers,


----------



## GreenNeedle (18 Jan 2008)

I think ADA works in its system because it was all designed to work together.  I would guess if you replaced one element with another brand (i.e. replace the potassium with Seachems version) the results might not be so good.

Likewise the Dennerle system maybe is designed so that the heater cables actually use the substrate to speed up ammonia production or something and then they reduce their N in their mixes.  No idea.

I use JamesCs PMDD+PO4 mix at the mo and it is working superb for me.  My water is like crystal!!!  The plants were algae free until I moved house 1 week ago and am now  experiencing algae springing up everywhere due to having a ridiculous amount of crypts which of course are rotting.  I would water change every day but I have a lot of redecorating and sorting out to do.

I never really got on with EI but then I was always moving stuff and CO2 was up and down.

In the end if you've got the bucks and like the ADA system then go 4 it.

An answer to the 'I know why people get glassware comment'  Its not because green pipes look bad after a while.  Its because the glass looks nice (take a look at George's tanks where he leaves his glassware in for the pics!!!) and in most cases it works really well so this is the main reason (thinking of ceramic diffusors and Lily pipes mainly)

Andy


----------



## sks (18 Jan 2008)

George Farmer said:
			
		

> I said PFK are quite anti-tankbusters "*these* days".  Not "*those*" days.
> 
> BTW there's at least two planted articles in there every month.  But if you don't take PFK seriously then I guess you're not interested...



<<edited>>

<<edited>>

If I can get to what I want with EI or PMDD I'd probably not bother with trying other things because I would have achieved my objectives. The only reason would be if other methods has certain advantages, be it more robust or better plant growth.




			
				SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> Likewise the Dennerle system maybe is designed so that the heater cables actually use the substrate to speed up ammonia production or something and then they reduce their N in their mixes. No idea.



Well if you have no idea why do you bother? And if Dennerle can't prove it neither here nor there, then we've reached an unfalsifiable situation. And when that happens we might as well talk gibberish. I've got nothing against Dennerle, they make some nice stuff, but some of the stuff is obsolete and they should have the decency to acknowledge so.



			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> BTW you can make up Brighty K yourself. Potassium carbonate and water.



yes, but similar does not mean equals. And similar in what way? Similar in concentration of K? Similar in what it does? I'm sure he has a lot more stuff in it that you don't know about and he won't divulge. But we as aquarists only care about the end result.


----------



## Tom (18 Jan 2008)

> <<edited>>
> 
> <<edited>>
> 
> If I can get to what I want with EI or PMDD I'd probably not bother with trying other things because I would have achieved my objectives. The only reason would be if other methods has certain advantages, be it more robust or better plant growth.





> Well if you have no idea why do you bother? And if Dennerle can't prove it neither here nor there, then we've reached an unfalsifiable situation. And when that happens we might as well talk gibberish.



If you never bother, you'll never know much at all. 



> yes, but similar does not mean equals. And similar in what way? Similar in concentration of K? Similar in what it does? I'm sure he has a lot more stuff in it that you don't know about and he won't divulge. But we as aquarists only care about the end result.



Again, if you never try you'll never know

I'm sure these were only suggestions, possibilities or people's opinions. Not a be all and end all of anything


----------



## sks (19 Jan 2008)

Tom,

it's not a question of trying, look up what the word "falsifiable" means and you know what context I am talking in. You've got the wrong end of the stick and taken what I said out of context.

As for the Brighty K comment I was only pointing out a similar does not mean equals. If they were one and the same then great, we now don't need to bother to buy Brighty K. We DON'T know that, and we may try it to see, but that does not change the fact that we have no proof (short of chemical analysis and/or confirmation from ADA themselves) that it is indeed what is claimed.


----------



## George Farmer (19 Jan 2008)

sks said:
			
		

> We DON'T know that, and we may try it to see, but that does not change the fact that we have no proof (short of chemical analysis and/or confirmation from ADA themselves) that it is indeed what is claimed.



Tom Barr does - chemical analysis is his middle name, especially with the new gear he has.  

Results will be published soon, I think.

http://www.barrreport.com/barr-report-newsletter/



> But we as aquarists only care about the end result.



Not true, on the whole.  Most folk enjoy the journey, as well as the destination.

BTW it was me that edited your libellous comments about PFK.  You are close to libelling Dennerle also.

Be more careful in the future, please.


----------



## sks (19 Jan 2008)

George Farmer said:
			
		

> Not true, on the whole.  Most folk enjoy the journey, as well as the destination.



Again, remark taken totally out of context. Tell me, when you use your canon eos 10d do you care to understand the jpeg implementation in terms of sines and cosines transforms, and would you like to know further about betters methods like using wavelets that gets rid of the edge alignment problems in the images? The issue is about how far you want to go, and my point is that there are a cut off point where most people's threshold tolerance gives up, and abstraction can be invoked.


----------



## GreenNeedle (19 Jan 2008)

I think I shall not bother anymore with thread seeing as the OP asking a question, seems to already have decided on his solution and is not interested in any opinion or suggestions other than that + I dont want to lose my temp on here again.


----------



## woodsman (19 Jan 2008)

SKS - I've been a guest on this forum for quite some time and followed your journal and thought heres a guy who needs some help and guidance (judging by the plants) and then reading this thread you seem to be a bit of "know it all".
Given the state of your past efforts i would have thought that advise freely given by what seem to be very knowledgeable people would have been taken on board and not thrown back at them in less than constructive arguements.

This was not how i wanted my first post to be but couldn't let it go.

If i were you i'd read through your posts and try and decipher what it is that you are actually arguing about, alls that i can figure out is that you keep plants, in a tank and thats about it.


----------



## ceg4048 (20 Jan 2008)

Hi guys,
              A reliable indicator of thread failure is when one must continually read the thread title in order remind oneself of what the argument is about. Threads are in danger of being consigned to the dustbin of irrelevance  when the posts become personal or when the content of the posts indicate disinterest and/or disillusionment.

I would rather that our forum develop a reputation as a source of accurate and insightful information as well as of inspired discussion. In an attempt to salvage what should be an intriguing  debate regarding the merits of this ADA product, I took Woodsman's advice and attempted to reconstruct what valid arguments I could find:

Consistent with other ADA products, Brighty K is hideously expensive. Most EI anoraks find the purchase of this product, which I presume is essentially Potassium, hard to swallow. SuperCorley1 bought up a point that I had completely overlooked though, in that Brighty K is part of a system and therefore must be used in conjunction with other elements of the system in order to ensure success. EI is also a system and in the same way, KNO3 must be used in conjunction with the other powders in order to achieve success.

SKS has a valid point in that it may not be enough to merely come close in synthesizing Brighty K. There may be other nutrients in the mixture which, if left out, could cause the system to fail. The effort therefore is to determine exactly what Brighty K is composed of, to determine whether these other compounds are at all relevant to plant growth, and if so to reproduce them. Although it is beyond the capability of the average hobbyist to determine the content of Brighty it is far from impossible. Any Chemistry Lab with spectrometry tools can do this. In fact, Tom Barr is doing this very thing. SKS, this is _why_ we should care about Tom Barr, Amano and others. They test or invent products, and they push back the boundaries of our knowledge. It is up to each individual to determine the limits of his/her knowledge. If someone is content to buy this product without understanding it's chemical composition, then fine. But possibly, by determining the composition I _may_ learn something that I had not known before, or, I _may _confirm something that I already knew. I feel that it is therefore worth the bother.

Like many other ADA products, Brighty K surely has it's merits but if it has to be used in a system comprised of other hideously expensive products, then it's value diminishes.

Some time ago, during the dawn of aquatic gardening (remember the scene from 2001?)  Dupla formulated a product called "Dupla Drops". It too was atrociously expensive and it seemed that on the rich and famous would ever have the privilege of lush growth. A chemical analysis revealed that Dupla Drops was composed of essentially Potassium Nitrate,  Magnesium Sulfate, and some trace elements. This revelation led to the development of the home brew PMDD - Poor Man's Dupla Drops. After years of EI we take this for granted now but at the time it was revolutionary because it brought nutrient dosing within the grasp of the average (and less affluent) hobbyist. The high price of Dupla Drops actually stifled the growth of the hobby. Contemplating Brighty K generates a feeling of deja vu.

So is it worth it? Well, it seems if you use it within the context of the system - and are prepared to pony up the cash, and if you have an aversion to the dry powder or PMDD or PPS-Pro methods then yes. But you should purchase Brighty with eyes wide open - know that there are less expensive alternatives and that if you are just willing to study a bit more you can achieve equal levels of success with any of the alternative systems listed above.

Cheers,


----------



## sks (20 Jan 2008)

SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> I think I shall not bother anymore with thread seeing as the OP asking a question, seems to already have decided on his solution and is not interested in any opinion or suggestions other than that + I dont want to lose my temp on here again.



Edited by moderator.



> SKS - I've been a guest on this forum for quite some time and followed your journal and thought heres a guy who needs some help and guidance (judging by the plants) and then reading this thread you seem to be a bit of "know it all".



No one gets to be a know it all! LOL. Again, you've also got the wrong end of the stick. Am I also rubbing you the wrong way as well?

I find all this preposterous. Shall we invoke censorship so that certain views and experiences are filtered so we don't rub certain individuals and companies the wrong way? If so, then we all might be reduced to a bunch of "polite" women who meet at tea parties who are ever so agreeable and charming, like a tedious Jane Austen novel. By the way, in case you are all wondering, feelings never went into this.

Thank you for your reply ceg4048, here is someone willing to "think". That's what's important to me.


----------



## Lisa_Perry75 (20 Jan 2008)

Well done Ceg for an accurate and very helpful summation, the thread was going off the rails a tad and perhaps would be better locked now?

PS I did not know anything about PMDD, so cheers for that!


----------



## sks (20 Jan 2008)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> SKS, this is why we should care about Tom Barr, Amano and others



you don't understand, I made that statement in the context that I don't care for them as personalities, or their status in the plant community. I care for what they can prove, and that is all. That's a depersonalising separation. Just like you might like the company of someone but not like their political views.

I'm sure Barr, Amano, the Dennerle family etc. . . are very nice if I get a chance to meet them. That does not change the fact that I don't like some of their products, or their philosophies.


----------



## Ed Seeley (20 Jan 2008)

As this thread is going nowhere I am locking it.

I have also edited some more posts as I feel some of the language used was, at best, misguided.  Keep things civil.  This is supposed to be an open, honest and polite exchange of views, not somewhere to have a go at people.


----------

