# EI Mix with Tap Water



## Bobtastic (14 Jun 2011)

Hi all, 

I was wondering if there was any reason not to use regular tap water in our EI mixes? Atm I'm using deionised water in my mix as it was called for in a DIY TPN+ mix.


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## Alastair (14 Jun 2011)

I just use boiled and cooled tap water myself but I was wondering the same when I made my next batch up yesterday. Be interesting to see what answer you get


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## Bobtastic (14 Jun 2011)

The way I understand the reasoning behind not using tap water and using deionised or RO water is that you can control exactly the amount of each chem you are adding into your tank. But surely a couple of extra ppm of nitrogen in an EI mix isn't gonna hurt?


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## Stu Worrall (14 Jun 2011)

I cant imagine it would make a difference as I dump 80 litres of the stuff in my tank at water change!


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## Bobtastic (14 Jun 2011)

Yeah, that was my thinking as well but I would like someone with a little more experience and chemistry knowledge to say "Yes, you are fine using tap water in your EI mix".


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## Stu Worrall (14 Jun 2011)

no probs Bob, i know stuff all about EI anytway


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## niru (14 Jun 2011)

Hi

guess theres no reason why NOT to use tap water, just as you guys mention above. However, it depends on how much EI solutions you are making. If its a dose only for a month or so then tap water does fine. If its much larger stock solution to go for a few months or so, then one has to be careful. Tap water contains, apart from the chemicals etc, lots of biologically active but sleeping things (algal & fungal spores, bacterial & viral residues etc etc). These guys get triggered in presence of EI ferts, and rejuvinate to life.

EI micros are chelated essentially with "sugars" so are prone to fungal growths if kept for too long. Thats why its recommended to seal and refrigerate these solutions to minimise these growths. In general warmth, light etc break down these sugars helping the fungal muck. The EDTA sugars are more prone to this than DTPA and other chelation types. Thats why DTPA are more expensive than EDTA chelated micros. Plus the tap water chems can react with Fe causing it to precipitate in the solution itself. So its a 2 way breakdown.

I noticed that even EI macros are prone to fungal mold growths. Though these are only "salts" per say, even tiny amounts of organic matters in tap water and these salts are enough to feed fungi. I had made a 6 month stock solution for automated dosing of EI, and macros went bad since I used tap water in them. 

Keeping the jars open makes them prone to mold spores from air as well. So using DI or RO water is a better option always. More so when making larger stocks & in warmer weathers.

cheers
Niru


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## ceg4048 (14 Jun 2011)

Bobtastic said:
			
		

> ..I was wondering if there was any reason not to use regular tap water in our EI mixes? Atm I'm using deionised water in my mix as it was called for in a DIY TPN+ mix...


Hi Bob,
   No there is no reason. 
JamesC is a very precise and organized individual, therefore he does not like the idea of introducing a nutrient level into his mix that is unaccounted for (especially since it cannot reliably be measured). Tap water will also introduce uncontrolled levels of other ions such as Calcium, Magnesium and Carbonates/Bi-Carbonates, so if you were running a soft water tank and were concerned about TDS then using RO/deionized would minimize the TDS increase in the tank. Someone like Ed Seeley would use this method because he specializes in breeding soft water fish.

JamesC's goal when developing DIY TPN+ was to simulate, as accurately as possible, the NPK and trace concentration values of the commercial TPN+. In this way it would be possible to predict performance, and to compare performances more accurately and more consistently than if an uncontrolled and unknown nutrient level were present in the mix. This is a scientific and highly rational approach, but for most users this is also completely irrelevant. Since it is not your purpose to study effects or to compare performance factors you should not care what kind of water is being used, unless your tap water contains significant levels of known toxins such as herbicides. 

Your goal is to provide at least the minimum nutrient value necessary to avoid nutrient deficiency. If this is your objective then it does not matter if your mix has inconsistent nutrient levels from batch to batch, or whether your mix has a higher or lower nutrient level than the batch made up by the boy across the street. If both of you added the same ratio of powders to water then you are assured that both mixes contain at least the minimum required nutrient level. That is all EI cares about. Do not make things more complicated than you need to. This is why we have difficulties, because we pay far too much attention to things that do not matter while ignoring the things that matter most.

Therefore, use whatever water you want, whatever is cheapest or whatever makes you happy, whether that be RO water, tap water, Antarctic iceberg water, or even ancient Babylonian water pilfered from the Museum of Natural History. But just don't worry about it because it will not make any difference. If you have trouble with fungal growth then just add a few drops every now and then of any strong acid such as Muriatic or Sulfuric. That will prevent fungal growth.

Cheers,


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## plantbrain (14 Jun 2011)

This is one reason why I dose dry powers, but make a stock solution for traces. It's more a hold over from the old days when I dosed this way using TMG and then dry macros.

Simple, easy and you can alter whatever rate of each individual nutrient.
Rather than thinking and testing much, I noticed many just want someone to tell them what to add.

So a simple recipe is straight forward.

Many are already familiar with dosing trace liquids.  
And getting folks to use teaspoon measuring spoons is not hard.

If you want to do it this way, then adding some acetic acid to the tap water(5% distilled) and wait about 30  min, then add traces to that might be fine, some use HCL also.....this makes the water very soft and removes the KH.

CMS+B and many dry traces are EDTA chelated which is better for low KH tank waters. 
Most in the UK would benefit from adding about 1:4 ratio Fe DTPA to CMS+B.

Tropica uses a similar formulation.


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## Bobtastic (14 Jun 2011)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Bobtastic said:
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What! No rare Klingon megawatt waters with extra dilithium crystal juice on the side!

I see the need for controlled numbers for testing, but I will be happy with my regular tap water once the deionised water I have runs out. Thanks for the input everyone, has been most helpful. I hope others have found it so!

I'm not concerned about mold or fungus as I am only making 1-2 weeks of mix, so it's not stood around enough.


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## CeeJay (15 Jun 2011)

Hi Bob


			
				Bobtastic said:
			
		

> I'm not concerned about mold or fungus as I am only making 1-2 weeks of mix, so it's not stood around enough.


On a 2 week supply you are unlikely to get any mould, however, the Trace will react with the PO4 and the Fe will become unavailable to the plants, so you need to make the solution acidic to prevent this from happening.

By the way, I'm using good old tap water for my DIY TPN+ mixtures, and have been for nearly 2 years


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## Bobtastic (15 Jun 2011)

CeeJay said:
			
		

> Hi Bob
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Soz CeeJay, I should have made it clear I'm not making a TPN+ style fert. I am mixing KNO3, KH2PO4 and MgSO4 in one bottle and Trace in another.


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## Alastair (15 Jun 2011)

Bobtastic said:
			
		

> CeeJay said:
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Ditto


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## CeeJay (15 Jun 2011)

Hi all

Aha, All is now clear   
No worries guys.


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## ceg4048 (15 Jun 2011)

Bobtastic said:
			
		

> ceg4048 said:
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Err...I assume you're referring to waters of the Skral River on Klingon home world Qo'noS right? Well, what people forget is the reason it _became_ dilithium enriched was fallout from  the explosion of their moon Praxis due to insufficient safety procedures and over-mining.

You can use this water for EI, sure, the plants don't care......except HELLO! Earth calling Bob! Remember The Klingon High Council banned the use of dilithium enriched water for EI due the extremely high risk of a Warp Core breach?? This could easily trigger accelerated hypernova activity in the sector and could even cause a significant space-time displacement of the super-massive black hole at the galactic centre - and that would ruin your epoch...wouldn't it?  

Cheers,


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## Stu Worrall (15 Jun 2011)




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## Bobtastic (15 Jun 2011)

I'm such a geek!  I actually lol'd reading that!


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## niru (16 Jun 2011)

Hi Guys

after such a nice wrap-up updating the status of different sectors in the Universe and pitfalls of the über-intelligent dwellers of other space-time regions, I have a much mundane issue to deal with  .

I have an autodoser for my EI ferts. Its essentially a small pump in a jar with timer etc. To avoid fungal molds the suggestion is to put a small amount of strong acid like hydrochloric or sulfuric.. Wont these corrode the pump metals? Another suggestion is to put EasyCarbo. But again wont this stuff disintegrate sooner than the lifetime of the dosing stock solution rendering it less (or un-)effective? The whole point of an autodoser is to do a timely correct dosing & that the process lasts for more than a month, thereby the need of large-ish stock amounts.

Thanks as always.

-niru


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## Bobtastic (16 Jun 2011)

Jame's Planted Tank's All-in-One (DIY TPN+) calls for 0.5g  E300 Ascorbic Acid and 0.2g  E202 Potassium Sorbate I believe that the acid is to prevent mold/fugus growth and  and the P-Sorbate is to prevent unwanted reactions with the trace. If that is the case could you not use this acid in your mix?


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## Alastair (16 Jun 2011)

I take it it's not required to add the acid when say just making up a 4 week bottle of macro and seperate trace then?


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## Bobtastic (16 Jun 2011)

A good question. I think you might need some if it is last that long, but I'd wait for the official response!


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## CeeJay (16 Jun 2011)

Hi all

I mix a 4 week supply in seperate bottles and have never had any mould/fungus issues in 2 years, and mine are kept in the cupboard under the tank   



			
				Bobtastic said:
			
		

> I believe that the acid is to prevent mold/fugus growth and and the P-Sorbate is to prevent unwanted reactions with the trace.


Other way round Bob   . Keeping the solution acidic prevents the reaction between PO4 and Fe in the Trace,  P-Sorbate prevents the mould


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## Bobtastic (16 Jun 2011)

Lol! Oooooops! Thanks for correcting me!


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## ceg4048 (18 Jun 2011)

Liquid carbon is also a pretty good item to use in the mix if you're experiencing mold. This is not really a big deal if it degrades because it kills everything in the bottle. Just add a few more drops a few weeks later. Acids will definitely corrode metallic parts of the pump if contact is made, but most of the pumps are made of plastic parts. Unfortunately, just about all of the convenient substances that kill mold/mildew/fungus also corrode metal.

Cheers,


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