# Is it possible to have a high tech planted and well stocked Community tank without algae issues ?



## tubamanandy (16 Jun 2016)

Is it possible to have a high tech planted and well stocked Community tank without algae issues ?

Only really seen very nice high tec planted tanks that are incredibly lightly stocked with fish. Is there an art or secret to running this type of tank without algae issues or are the two mutually exclusive ?


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## alto (16 Jun 2016)

Sure
water change water change water change



If you go back & look at Amano's Nature Aquarium volumes, many of those tanks are heavily stocked with small fish, also larger tanks with considerable shoals of discus or altums or angel fish ...

Sometimes I end up with rather a lot of fish in my tanks (no resistance at the shops  ) but then later I find them too busy & reduce fish numbers .... I don't notice much difference in algae
I do see an upswing in algae if I don't clean filters for months (my ideal is monthly but sometimes it's 3-4 & flow has slowed substantially ... for 1-2 months  )


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## Martin in Holland (17 Jun 2016)

I have about 60 cardinals, 15 penguin tetras, 4 SAE, 6 Otos and 2 bristle nose plecos without any issues, I do 2 times per week a water change (once 25-30% and once 50%), stir up the sand and try to get as much fish waste out as possible.
To answer your question, Yes, it is possible.


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## ian_m (17 Jun 2016)

As well as frequent water changes you will need decent filter flow and having light at the lower and of high tech will keep algae away.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (17 Jun 2016)

Basically the plants and the fish are constantly adding nasties to the tank which the algae thrive on but with extra leg work to do with tank hygiene it's more than possible as we have seen on numerous occasions. You just have to be prepared for that hard work and decide how much time you have on your hands to deal with the hobby.

High tech or high energy input from the lighting increases plant growth resulting in high metabolic waste products from the plants, added to this a heavy fish load also producing waste products and compounded further by the dense plant growth killing the flow around the tank will result in algae related issues. Constantly trimming out, changing for clean water and making sure the filter is running at it's optimum is the way to combat that = more work from you.

The hardest I would guess would be in the case of a planted Discus tank. Fish that like copious amounts of high protein foods that don't like to swim in "un-clean" water and the higher temperatures driving up the growth of the plants as well, not for for the faint hearted! That's why you often see them in bare bottom or sparsely planted aquariums. Whenever I see a heavily planted Discus tank I take my hat off to the owner. I've tried both in separate situations and it's a full time job in itself.

Nothing to say you can't have a densely planted well stocked community tank though. You don't have to throw loads of light in there which can reduce plant waste, things will still grow just at a slower rate if you select plants that are more adapted to that situation. Plenty of tanks out there low tech that are amazing. And, IMO more enjoyable to the hobbyist as you have more time to appreciate it rather than constantly working on it.

All depends personally on what you want. If a high tech, densely planted tank with loads of fish in is your goal be prepared to do the graft. I have two tanks running at the moment, one maturing which will be quite high energy and a little shrimp tank. I have a busy lifestyle so can only really get to do the high energy one for a few hours on a Saturday afternoon, some days if it's been a heavy week I feel like I could do without it and it becomes a chore but hey, you only get out what you put in. The shrimp tank on the other hand I do maintenance whenever I get round to it which is more enjoyable.

So no, I don't think it's mutually exclusive.


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## alto (17 Jun 2016)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> planted Discus tank. Fish that like copious amounts of high protein foods



Sorry this is one of my _soap box oratory_ triggers 

_Symphysodon_ _aequifasciatus_



> There were many dissections of discus in the wild. For polish speakers I hereby present the link:
> http://krytykaakwarystyczna.wordpress.com/zywienie-ryb-moze-wreszcie-niektorzy-zrozumieja-ze-czyli-czym-odzywiaja-sie-przedstawiciele-rodzaju-symphysodon-w-naturze/
> 
> The unprocessed food was analised by Crampton, and the result is, that *at the wet season 77% of the food was detrytus and plant matter, 5% were decapods, 10% Chironimidae larvae, 8% were composed of wood matter, bugs and Crustacea.* In the dry season, the balance drifts towards bugs and crustacea (only 55% were composed ef the detrytus/plant matter).
> ...



You can search out the various Discus analysis papers, but the above is really an excellent summary
(feeding beef fat ("wrong" biochemistry) also has negative consequences for Discus)


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## tubamanandy (17 Jun 2016)

You tend to see most Discus breeders feeding beefheart to no doubt speed up the growth rate for sale - I would guess its quite unnatural


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## alto (17 Jun 2016)

tubamanandy said:


> Discus breeders feeding beefheart


& dirt cheap compared to products such as the freeze dried Australian black worms (some pellets etc are being trialed by the local Discus breeder/importer)

BUT beefheart causes liver issues & fish version of "arterial" fat deposits, also fat deposits in the body surrounding organs - things that had never been seen in any fish (let alone Discus) 

Again


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## Chris Jackson (18 Jun 2016)

I'd say you absolutely can especially if you take an approach of shall we say "enhanced low tech". This means a deep nutrient rich substrate as primary nutrient source for the plants with the wastes from your high stock levels as the main secondary fertiliser component. Moderate light levels.

The 120x60x60 tank below follows this method, it is well stocked but runs on just 1bps CO2 directly into one of the filters, is lit by 2 x old 54w T5's for 12 hours a day plus another 2 for hours #10 and #11. Around 35% water change weekly and 1or 2 pumps daily of Tropica Specialised fert with the fish well fed am and pm. Algae grows naturally on the hardscape but very little on the plants or glass. I never disturb the substrate and O2 levels are high due to the high flow.


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## Martin in Holland (20 Jun 2016)

Brilliant tank Chris


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## rebel (2 Nov 2016)

Yes but they are an exeption to the rule. Not many willbe able to pull this off in the long term.


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## zozo (2 Nov 2016)

Its a constant battle till the right combination is met.. Depending on experience this can be from the beginning, starting when all plants are transisioned, i guess 90% of the aquariums have alagae growth/issues in the first periode as long as the plants are not fully addapted to the submersed conditions.

But once you are through that first stage you need to know the plants, their light and nutrient (co2) demand, the imballance in these 2 factors versus the tanks bioload are commonly the algae triggers.. For example a tank full of slow growing low light demanding plants can still be high tech, but still doesn't need a massive amount of light and probably much less ferts than if a tank is stacked with difficult high light demanding plants. Combinations in plants species mixed from easy to advanced is where the experience comes in to find the sweetspot (also placement plays a role) where all is equaly happy.. 

Here you see the shocking truth.
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/windswept-eternity-warts-n-all.37490/page-22#post-464337

Proof is in the pudding..

And this is something you can only learn by experience.. Not only your tank is a living thing, you need to live it as well, each seperate tank in it's own personality.. Seeing, feeling, smelling what it wants and needs. For some people it comes natural and probably have no clue what i'm babbling about, others maybe never will get it and think i'm babbling and keep trying..


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## Munchy2007 (2 Nov 2016)

Bit late coming to this, but I'd have to say the answer is yes.

These are my two tanks

180L corner tank, 2 x 18W T8, injected CO2 and EI


 

4ft 220L tank 2 x 38W T8, injected CO2 and EI


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## rebel (3 Nov 2016)

With the 'high tech' I took to mean 'high light' = PAR above 80 at the substrate.

You can easily have low/medium light (PAR less than 50), high CO2 scapes which may not even need much Nitrate addition due to high stocking.

It's the high light that makes things unstable.


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## Easternlethal (3 Nov 2016)

I wouldn't consider any of these tanks as well-stocked. My tank has easily double the amount of guppies who seem to be bearing all the time. I'm able to keep algae at bay with high flow and frequent water changes but even then parts of my sand substrate gets dirty pretty fast. I also switched to a sump mainly because they are so easy to clean.


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## sciencefiction (3 Nov 2016)

I'd agree with Easternlethal. These tanks given as an example are not "well stocked". It depends on one's idea of well stocked tank but generally you cant avoid algae if you are on the heavy side of fish stocking unless you are up to daily large water changes.


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## Munchy2007 (3 Nov 2016)

My tanks are well stocked, the pictures only show a portion of the entire stock.

For example in the 2nd picture, what you can't see are 12 cory, another pearl gourami, another 5 neon blue rainbows, 1 bn plec, another dozen or so guppies, another 11 cardinals, 2 x 5" clown loaches.

I don't know what you would consider well stocked, but once you add the hidden ones to what you can see I'd consider it pretty well stocked!

I suppose it wouldn't be considered high light, but in terms of what the plants need it's more than enough.


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## sciencefiction (3 Nov 2016)

I just think its not sustainable long term, not just for the sake of algae problems but for the sake of the fish. One will not have fish dying of old age, but dying prematurely. Its hard to know what's died in a livebearer tank because they keep mulitplying but keep an eye on the lifespan of the longer lived fish and you'd know if what you're doing is sustainable. It may as well be, but speaking from experience, overstocking leads to inevitable problems, Algae will spread its paws early or later. And when it does, there's no return until you offload the stock, that's if the fish don't die prematurely. With good maintenance one might prolong the inevitable...

I kept a bunch of male guppies once in a "well stocked" tank. They probably lived 1.5-2.5 years max. I had only one female guppy at the time so I decided to put her in a separate tank as I had no intention of breeding the guppies.  She ended up in a very lightly stocked tank. She was over 4 years of age when she died. I don't think the difference in life span was a coincidence. Then again I keep tanks for the fish, not the plants. Plants are just a vehicle to keep the tank healthier for the fish.

My advise is, get the biggest tank you can afford and fit in your house. Do not overstock it, don't even go near that. This way you can enjoy the hobby long term and have room to stock with the fish you want without overstocking...  Time goes, we all have our own problems, we may temporarily lose interest, neglect the tanks for a few weeks, etc..A well stocked tank needs strict maintenance regime....each week, large water changes the minimum, etc... If you can't do that, go light  or you'll end up tearing your hairs of and even give up the hobby....


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## Easternlethal (4 Nov 2016)

I started with 6 guppies in my 50 gall and now have over 30. I also have a few tetras otos minnows which have been there for years and don't reproduce. I also have inverts which reproduce. 

I didn't start out wanting to overstock but with reproducing fish it's hard to target a specific population. At first I thought about giving away the females but I rather like having a changing community now. Also guppies are more interesting when they are chasing tail. 

Before I got them I had the same fish for about a year and didn't enjoy the tank as much. 

Now I let the tank regulate the population. Combined with same cleaning and feeding regime, my population is high but steady. 

My sump (and large canisters previously) also effectively doubled the volume of water in my setup. So maybe even though my tank looks overstocked, it's not compared to the volume of water flowing throughout. I think that's the main difference between a healthy and unhealthy tank.  

Adding more water to the system this way and constraining the tank size I think is an effective way to have a high population with lots of action in a healthy tank. 

And I only clean change water once a week.


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