# Seachem prime ????



## Frenchi (5 May 2014)

Hi ppl
I have been using seachem prime now for as long as I can remember, now I'm into this planted tank marlarki I was wondering if it is a good idea to use it with planted tanks as it removes some nitrate etc .. I know it's not a super agent or anything I just thought there maybe something better to use? 

What do you use? 


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## Claire (5 May 2014)

I use seachem safe - it's basically seachem prime but in powder form so more economical. I have those measuring spoon things and it works out at ⅛ teaspoon per 90l, so lasts a long time. I've never worried about the nitrate binding as I think it would be organic vs chemical binding, and since if you dose EI you are adding plenty of everything anyways (adding excess and then removing during water change) then I shouldn't think that amount of prime is going to bind very much. I think it's higher doses anyways to bind ammonia/nitrite/nitrates than chlorine/chloramines anyways is it not?


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## Frenchi (5 May 2014)

Claire said:


> I use seachem safe - it's basically seachem prime but in powder form so more economical. I have those measuring spoon things and it works out at ⅛ teaspoon per 90l, so lasts a long time. I've never worried about the nitrate binding as I think it would be organic vs chemical binding, and since if you dose EI you are adding plenty of everything anyways (adding excess and then removing during water change) then I shouldn't think that amount of prime is going to bind very much. I think it's higher doses anyways to bind ammonia/nitrite/nitrates than chlorine/chloramines anyways is it not?


Sounds good to me .. Infact I'm going to buy some of that, it sounds like a bigger money saver than prime thanks for that Claire  


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## EnderUK (5 May 2014)

I've got some Safe and I probably should of gone Prime. There's no way of measure the amount I need for a water change 0.005g, it's like a few grains. I've stopped using it any ways. Got a 25L bucket and an air stone, running it for 24 hours then do water changes three times a week. It actually takes less time to do that then do the big 60% once a week.


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## Frenchi (5 May 2014)

EnderUK said:


> I've got some Safe and I probably should of gone Prime. There's no way of measure the amount I need for a water change 0.005g, it's like a few grains. I've stopped using it any ways. Got a 25L bucket and an air stone, running it for 24 hours then do water changes three times a week. It actually takes less time to do that then do the big 60% once a week.


Valid point ... I was thinking of buying a water butt and filling that but was worried about keeping the water at a similar temperature to my tanks, at the moment I like you use 25ltr buckets with prime using correct temp from the tap,doing it on all three tanks once a week is a big chore..  


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## Vinkenoog1977 (5 May 2014)

With my old setup, I used a collapsable rain container which took 200 L and had a nice little tap at the bottom. Once a week, after showering, I placed it in the bathroom on a little table, filled it up with 80 L of regular tap water (had made markings on the inside), hooked up my RO-device, and let it run all night. As for temp, I used an old 300 W Jäger heater, set at the same temp of my tanks. The next day, when the container was filled up to 160 L with the RO-water, water changes were a breeze; hose with a water pump in the aquarium into the bathroom, and then refill with the hose coming from the container. Will be getting a similar setup again soon, this time from the washing machine connection in the closet of my balcony. Makes life a lot easier than using buckets and watering-cans.

As for the Prime; I really like it, but with Nano tanks, you neeld some smallish dosing needles/ syringes to get it just right, even though over dosing the stuff a bit doesn't seem to do any damage. With the powder-form, I can see that being near impossible, unless you use pharmacy grade scales.


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## EnderUK (6 May 2014)

Frenchi said:


> Valid point ... I was thinking of buying a water butt and filling that but was worried about keeping the water at a similar temperature to my tanks, at the moment I like you use 25ltr buckets with prime using correct temp from the tap,doing it on all three tanks once a week is a big chore..
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



You say that but it's actually not bad, I can empty and refill 25% in about 20 minutes, were as doing a big 75% water change took about 2-3 hours including letting the water settle with the tap safe for 15-20 minutes. Also take into the fact that the 25L bucket is around 20C and my tank is 26C then I have a drop of 1C. The other plus is my TDS won't jump from 375 to 200 and the fish are getting a constant supply of fresh water rather than once a week.


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## Frenchi (6 May 2014)

EnderUK said:


> You say that but it's actually not bad, I can empty and refill 25% in about 20 minutes, were as doing a big 75% water change took about 2-3 hours including letting the water settle with the tap safe for 15-20 minutes. Also take into the fact that the 25L bucket is around 20C and my tank is 26C then I have a drop of 1C. The other plus is my TDS won't jump from 375 to 200 and the fish are getting a constant supply of fresh water rather than once a week.


That makes sense too, saves messing with the mixer tap and thermometer like I do. 
I know some aquarium shops have a constant trickle feed to there systems I know our local one does. 
Looks like I'm changing my style again sounds like a less stressful way for both me and the fish 
Thanks for that  


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## Frenchi (6 May 2014)

Vinkenoog1977 said:


> With my old setup, I used a collapsable rain container which took 200 L and had a nice little tap at the bottom. Once a week, after showering, I placed it in the bathroom on a little table, filled it up with 80 L of regular tap water (had made markings on the inside), hooked up my RO-device, and let it run all night. As for temp, I used an old 300 W Jäger heater, set at the same temp of my tanks. The next day, when the container was filled up to 160 L with the RO-water, water changes were a breeze; hose with a water pump in the aquarium into the bathroom, and then refill with the hose coming from the container. Will be getting a similar setup again soon, this time from the washing machine connection in the closet of my balcony. Makes life a lot easier than using buckets and watering-cans.
> 
> As for the Prime; I really like it, but with Nano tanks, you neeld some smallish dosing needles/ syringes to get it just right, even though over dosing the stuff a bit doesn't seem to do any damage. With the powder-form, I can see that being near impossible, unless you use pharmacy grade scales.


I did have something similar in mind  


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## EnderUK (6 May 2014)

I got two 25L beer bins for my 125L tank, one for gassing off and the other to empty. A little expensive but they come with a lid and 5L markings. Pretty heavy (well about 26kg) lifting them on to the tank to syphon. My lass uses a pint jug to fill it up when she does it). I just cut a hole in one of the lids and then drop the air stone into it. I've done the same with my nano tank but used two 5L asda finest mineral water bottles. I do the two tanks on alternating days dosing macros after the change. Best of luck and make sure you lift with your legs and not with your back


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## Frenchi (6 May 2014)

EnderUK said:


> I got two 25L beer bins for my 125L tank, one for gassing off and the other to empty. A little expensive but they come with a lid and 5L markings. Pretty heavy (well about 26kg) lifting them on to the tank to syphon. My lass uses a pint jug to fill it up when she does it). I just cut a hole in one of the lids and then drop the air stone into it. I've done the same with my nano tank but used two 5L asda finest mineral water bottles. I do the two tanks on alternating days dosing macros after the change. Best of luck and make sure you lift with your legs and not with your back


I have the beer bins too  I was filling 4 of them  to re-fill but to syphon I use a 3000 lph pond pump straight into them silicone type buckets in the back garden and the wife uses the water on the plants free fertz for her  
I'm going to start doing the little and often as you do though sounds like a time saver to me... I think I'm still going to buy a water butt with a air stone thrown in and fill it in our junk room. 
I do have float valve for a caravan aqua roll so i can fit that and leave water on a constant supply saves even more time 







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## MikeC1408 (6 May 2014)

For people saying dosing prime in small tanks can be awkward and you need syringes etc just get the smallest bottle of prime. The dosages for small tanks are in drops rather than ml's and the bottle has a built in dropper lid. 


Works great on my nano tank.


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## EnderUK (6 May 2014)

I was talking about measuring out safe and I do have mg scales.

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## three-fingers (6 May 2014)

I mix the Safe with a bottle with RO water and use a syringe to dose.  With my current solution its something like 10g safe into 750ml bottle of RO water, then 5ml treats 7.5L.


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## ian_m (6 May 2014)

EnderUK said:


> Got a 25L bucket and an air stone, running it for 24 hours then do water changes three times a week. It actually takes less time to do that then do the big 60% once a week.


Problem with this is it only removes chlorine and not chloramine. I lost count the number of forum posts I have read where people (in UK) have stopped using dechlorinator and gone over to using air stones couple of days before water change, then wiped out their tanks due to chloramine being added to the water.

Last one I read the guy lost £620 of fish due to chloramine being added to water and not using dechlorinator "as not necessary".....
http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/410456-22-aquariums-wiped-out/

This is the blog of him building his "fish house"
http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/385563-rories-fish-house-project/


I have had chloramine added to my water at home. We had a water main burst near my house, and due to possible water contamination during the incident and repair, chloramine was added to the water supply. We were notified with a leaflet pushed through the door (and lack of water....) that said should not use water in aquariums/ponds for a week. Further investigation revealed chloramine being injected in mains.


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## EnderUK (6 May 2014)

Not an issue with a planted tank, you'd have to ask some one else for the exact science but the choramine breaks down into chorine which gases off and ammonia which plants gobble up. Three fingers I read that safe does not have the stablizing agents of prime so you can't pre mix the batch.

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## ian_m (6 May 2014)

EnderUK said:


> Not an issue with a planted tank, you'd have to ask some one else for the exact science but the choramine breaks down into chorine which gases off and ammonia which plants gobble up


Not true. Chloramine is added to domestic water supplies as it doesn't break down and out gas, like chlorine. Chloramine, in aerated water will last days.
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/chlorine-chloramine

Chloramine will kill bacteria in your filter as well, which is what it is designed to do, kill bacteria in water supplies.

Issue is, in UK at least, chloramine may be added to water, with zero notice to provide extra sterilisation to domestic water, due to supply "issues". Thus you should always dose dechlorinator, regardless, or suffer the consequences in the link I gave previously.


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## sciencefiction (6 May 2014)

I agree with Ian. As far as I know you need a dechlorinator that can to break the bond between the chlorine and ammonia in the chloramine.  It doesn't break down without it, at least not for a good while. So adding water with chloramines will lead to disasters.


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## EnderUK (6 May 2014)

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/seachem-safe-dosage-calucations.32255/#post-341976

All though Darrel doesn't mention what he means about a large water change. Unless I'm miss reading and Darrel is saying is just saying use the Chlorine levels of safe. I'll try dig some more up.


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## ian_m (6 May 2014)

Couple of points/confusion here:
1. Chloramine is not always present on UK water. You won't know when until too late.
2. Chloramine will injure fish if not kill fish.
3. Chloramine will kill bacteria and will kill the biofilm present in planted tanks. Chloramine is used to sterilise things, so works well sterilising your fish tank, especially as planted tanks to 50% water change.
4. Seachem Prime will neutralise chloramine with its standard dose (unlike sodium thiosulphate where you have to double dose to neutralise chloramine) and does not release ammonia. http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Prime.html
5. Seachem Prime doesn't cost much for the volume of water it conditions. 500ml will condition 20,000litres of water.

So regardless, at water change you add Prime (or equivalent), and get on and worry about other things like CO2 distribution, location of rocks, type of plants, type of fish etc.


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## EnderUK (6 May 2014)

Okay I haven't found a definite arguement that says plants can deal with the Chloramine. Personally I do read skepticalaquarit but I read it like I would wiki, skeptically. So stick with Ian and sciencefictions advice and continue to use tap safe.


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## Claire (6 May 2014)

Just when people are saying about safe being difficult to measure, I really don't find it difficult to measure as I use the little baking measuring spoons as I said, and the smallest spoon ⅛ teaspoon does 90l. You dose (I think) 4x this amount for ammonia, so you don't need to worry about getting it exact right down to the last grain.


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## EnderUK (6 May 2014)

I'm a yorkshireman born to a Scottish accountant, of course getting it to the last grain is important 

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## EnderUK (6 May 2014)

Claire said:


> Just when people are saying about safe being difficult to measure, I really don't find it difficult to measure as I use the little baking measuring spoons as I said, and the smallest spoon ⅛ teaspoon does 90l. You dose (I think) 4x this amount for ammonia, so you don't need to worry about getting it exact right down to the last grain.



from seachem website http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Safe.html

Chlorine: use 1 measure to each 130 L (35 gallons*) of tap water (removes 1 ppm). 1 measure = 100 mg or 0.1g

A dash (level 1/8 of a teaspoon) is 0.6g of Safe.

I have smidgen spoon 1/32 and I measure out a tiny corner of that to get about 0.03g for 25L. I measured it out today to check but I have been eye balling it on water changes.


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## three-fingers (7 May 2014)

EnderUK said:


> Not an issue with a planted tank, you'd have to ask some one else for the exact science but the choramine breaks down into chorine which gases off and ammonia which plants gobble up. Three fingers I read that safe does not have the stablizing agents of prime so you can't pre mix the batch.


I read that too, only from Seachem marketing folk though . I also remember seeing forum posts of people saying it was fine. I see no reason why the chemicals would need stabilisers to work in RO water, it looks and smells the same, never had any problems with 80% water changes and my waters treated with both chlorine and chloramine.


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## ian_m (7 May 2014)

Here is a link to water list of water companies that use chloramine, as not all do.
http://www.fishkeeping.co.uk/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?post_id=317946

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=4400


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## dw1305 (7 May 2014)

Hi all, 





ian_m said:


> I lost count the number of forum posts I have read where people (in UK) have stopped using dechlorinator and gone over to using air stones couple of days before water change, then wiped out their tanks due to chloramine being added to the water.....Issue is, in UK at least, chloramine may be added to water, with zero notice to provide extra sterilisation to domestic water, due to supply "issues". Thus you should always dose dechlorinator, regardless, or suffer the consequences in the link I gave previously


 I don't use tap water partially for this sort of reason, but I think Ian is right that most of the problems with chloramine have come about due to "emergency" chloramine dosing when water main integrity is breached. I first became aware of it as a problem after the freeze and thaw during the winter of 2010/11 damaged a lot of water mains and subsequently a lot of plec keepers lost all their more rheophilic L numbers. 

I think the "Skeptical Aquarist" is right, and although chloramine is a reasonably stable compound, the disinfectant is still chlorine (as hypochlorous acid HClO), and it this trickles out as the chloramine breaks down to Cl- and NH3(NH4+). Because it is trickling out over time, a planted tank will mop up the NH3. 

Seachem won't tell you how "Prime" works, but Kordon's "Amquel" has a patent <http://www.kordon.com/kordon/products/water-conditioner/amquel#compatabilities!> and I would be very surprised if the mode of action of Prime is much different. 

I would suspect that all the newer, "better" conditioners (have a look at the blurb for "Amquel+") use EDTA and sodium hydroxymethanesulphonate (or similar). The EDTA chelates any heavy metals (as long as Fe ions aren't present in large amounts) and the hydroxymethane - end of the molecule reacts with ammonia to form a non-toxic, stable water-soluble compound "aminomethanesulphonate". The sulphonate end of the molecule reacts with both free-available chlorine, and combined-available chlorine in chloramines. Any ammonia (from the break down of the chloramine) is then mopped up by the sodium hydroxymethanesulphonate.

cheers Darrel


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## sciencefiction (7 May 2014)

dw1305 said:


> and it this trickles out as the chloramine breaks down to Cl- and NH3(NH4+).


 
Hi Darren. One thing I don't understand. Chloramine in its stable form is most dangerous so if its tickling out ever so slowly then it confirms the point that it's very slow to break down. . So what happens in the tank until the bond is broken? Aren't the chloramines harming everything in the tank while in it's stable form? Especially since one doesn't really know the amount of chloramines because as far as I know one can use certain dose of chloramine on fish to treat them from bacterial infections but obviously that kills all sorts of other bacteria such as nitrifying bacteria and possibly others.
 I am not opposing that any mature tank can deal with chlorine and ammonia fast enough due to surface agitation/mature filters but it's the chloramines a tank can't deal with from what I understand on regular basis. You'd be wiping out your microorganism every so often even if you don't manage to kill the fish outright as with a fish safe chloramine doses it's like treating them with toxic meds every weekend during a water change.


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## ian_m (7 May 2014)

If the chloramine from the water supply doesn't kill the fish first time, (it passes straight through their gills into bloodstream), the ammonia from rotting dead bacteria killed by the chloramine will make them suffer more.


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## dw1305 (7 May 2014)

Hi all, 





sciencefiction said:


> Chloramine in its stable form is most dangerous so if its tickling out ever so slowly then it confirms the point that it's very slow to break down. . So what happens in the tank until the bond is broken? Aren't the chloramines harming everything in the tank while in it's stable form?


 I think the answer to that is that chloramines themselves are toxic to fish, from *"*Chlorine-induced mortality in fish*"*. Grothe, D. _et al_.  (1975) Transactions of the American Fisheries Society *104:4*, pp. 800-802.





> Chloramine passes through the gills of fish and enters the blood stream. There, it reacts with haemoglobin, forming methaemoglobin. In fathead minnows (_Pimephales promelas_) exposed to 1 ppm-Cl of monochloramine, for example, about 30% of the haemoglobin is converted into methaemoglobin. The fish then suffer from anoxia (low oxygen in their tissues) because they have lost some of their haemoglobin, which is responsible for carrying oxygen in the blood.


 Cheers Darrel


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## ian_m (7 May 2014)

How drinking water is disinfected.
http://www.staffs.ac.uk/schools/sciences/consultancy/dladmin/zCIWEMPOTWAT/Activity5/act5.html


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## dw1305 (7 May 2014)

Hi all, 





sciencefiction said:


> I am not opposing that any mature tank can deal with chlorine and ammonia fast enough due to surface agitation/mature filters but it's the chloramines a tank can't deal with from what I understand on regular basis. You'd be wiping out your microorganism every so often even if you don't manage to kill the fish outright as with a fish safe chloramine doses it's like treating them with toxic meds every weekend during a water change.


 I think that probably is a pretty reasonable summary. High levels of oxygenation, small water changes and heavy planting cut down the risk involved with water changes with tap water, but there will always be some risk.

Personally I've never used tap water (I've always used rain-water) and I've never kept a non-planted tank where biological filtration was dependent upon the microbial  conversion of ammonia to nitrate.

There are risks involved with rain-water as well, but by using the _"Daphnia_ bioassay" <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/distilled-deionised-water.26098/> they are much reduced.


ian_m said:


> How drinking water is disinfected.


 The Staffs University water industry web pages are great. I assume that they were meant to be hidden behind a pay-wall, but you can download the whole course by changing the "/Activityn/actn.html" ending.

cheers Darrel


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## Claire (10 May 2014)

EnderUK said:


> from seachem website http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Safe.html
> 
> Chlorine: use 1 measure to each 130 L (35 gallons*) of tap water (removes 1 ppm). 1 measure = 100 mg or 0.1g
> 
> ...



On my tub of safe it says to use 5g (1 teaspoon) per 750l. Which to me works out about ⅛ per 90l. Maybe the concentrations are different for the sizes or something as the tube I have is the small 250g one.


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## EnderUK (11 May 2014)

Claire said:


> On my tub of safe it says to use 5g (1 teaspoon) per 750l. Which to me works out about ⅛ per 90l. Maybe the concentrations are different for the sizes or something as the tube I have is the small 250g one.


that's for 4ppm of Chlorine, again read that link I gave you. We don't have 4ppm in our water. Just trying to save you ££££ my safe should last my 125l 90 years at ei dosage water changes.


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## Claire (11 May 2014)

Well to be honest I don't know how much is in my water, I've just been following the instructions and find it still to be very economical. The point is that you can follow the instructions and make life simple for yourself without having to try and measure minuscule amounts, which is what some people were complaining of.


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## dw1305 (11 May 2014)

Hi all, 





> that's for 4ppm of Chlorine


 You'd know if you had 4ppm chlorine in your water, you can taste it from about 0.5 ppm upwards, 2 ppm is pretty unpleasant and a municipal swimming pool would only have 4 or 5ppm. The USA has much more heavily chlorinated water than us because they don't invest any money in water quality, and the Netherlands don't need to chlorinate their water supply at all, mainly because they've invested in infrastructure etc.

cheers Darrel


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## ian_m (12 May 2014)

dw1305 said:


> Netherlands don't need to chlorinate their water supply at all, mainly because they've invested in infrastructure etc


Not quite. Interesting you mention this as I bumped into this the other day.
http://students.chem.tue.nl/ifp42/netherlands/Current.html

Use a combination or chlorine, UV and ozone.

However this is old and chlorine in form of chloramine is now being added.
http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/dutch-tap-water-be-chlorinated

In UK we suffer from leaky Victorian water infrastructure, so more chlorine has to be added usually less than 1 ppm (0.2ppm in my area), which normally you can't smell or taste.


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## dw1305 (12 May 2014)

Hi all, 





ian_m said:


> Not quite. Interesting you mention this as I bumped into this the other day.


 Thank for that, it is interesting. I think the bottom line is that you can't really argue with chlorine as a cheap and efficient disinfectant for drinking water, and that chloramine has the advantage of providing disinfection for longer. 

We might not be very happy with it as fish keepers, but providing safe drinking water has to be the primary consideration, and I expect that more water suppliers will move over to using chloramine. 

Personally I've always used rain-water, and I'm fairly happy that it is a better option than tap for me, although I realise that it isn't an option for every-body. 

cheers Darrel


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## sciencefiction (12 May 2014)

Plenty of rain here but I am having trouble fitting the tank on the window sill in my apartment 
Personally, my local tap is treated with just chlorines and low level at that. I've forgotten to dechlorinate tanks in the past and I've come back to seemingly unaffected fish. But for some reason I still pump Prime at water changes because I like spending my money on something that I can't even buy in a local shop here. It's fun getting online deliveries and paying almost as much for the postage as it costs to buy the Pirme. But I guess my mind is clear


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## ian_m (12 May 2014)

dw1305 said:


> I think the bottom line is that you can't really argue with chlorine as a cheap and efficient disinfectant for drinking water


In about 1991 due to scare stories about chlorine in water generating organo-chlorines (which it can at very high doses and unsuitable pipework) chlorine was removed from water supplies leading to about 10,000 deaths due to cholera and other water born diseases.


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