# Do I have BGA?



## Ruskie

Forgive my newbie ignorance. I’ve been reading about but just confused myself into whether I need to do anything about this or just let it run it’s course.
I’m not 100% sure if this is blue-green algae or just some symptoms of a newly developing tank. It appears to be mostly appearing on mosses and covering the wood. I’ve kinda convinced myself it is BGA as there seems to be a slightly earthy smell to the tank (normal

Tank has been running 3 and a bit weeks.
Tropica soil, nutrition capsules and topped with powder.
Non Co2.
Lights 6 hours a day.
No ferts for the first 2 weeks then 1 pump of Tropica  specialised nutrition every couple of days after (too much?).

















Any advice/comments welcome.


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## Nick72

Yes that's cyanobacteria (blue / green algae).

The slightly stagnant smell typically accompanies BGA.

It can be quite difficult to get rid of BGA, Erythromycin can help.


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## MirandaB

Does look like Cyano (BGA) to me unfortunately.
Might be worth checking out this thread  https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/cyanobacteria-identification-at-last.60496/


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## MirandaB

Nick72 said:


> t can be quite difficult to get rid of BGA, Erythromycin can help.



OP is in the UK and antibiotics are not available over the counter here


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## Ruskie

Thanks for the clarification 

Do you think this has been brought on by something I have done wrong or something that is wrong in my setup? Or is it just one of those things?


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## Nick72

Ruskie said:


> Thanks for the clarification
> 
> Do you think this has been brought on by something I have done wrong or something that is wrong in my setup? Or is it just one of those things?



Lighting is often a factor.  I see you are running for six hours a day, which seems very reasonable.

What lighting fixture are you using?

What power setting do you have it on?


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## jaypeecee

Ruskie said:


> Do you think this has been brought on by something I have done wrong or something that is wrong in my setup? Or is it just one of those things?



Hi @Ruskie 

Yes, there is little doubt that your tank is being taken over by the blue-green menace. As suggested by @MirandaB, please take a look at the thread I started a few weeks ago. Here is the link for convenience:

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/cyanobacteria-identification-at-last.60496/

I'll return later but I want to see what's going on at the ISS (NASA).

JPC


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## Ruskie

Nick72 said:


> Lighting is often a factor.  I see you are running for six hours a day, which seems very reasonable.
> 
> What lighting fixture are you using?
> 
> What power setting do you have it on?



It is just an unbranded 18w led jobby. It doesn’t have the option to dim unfortunately.

Led light


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## Ruskie

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Ruskie
> 
> Yes, there is little doubt that your tank is being taken over by the blue-green menace. As suggested by @MirandaB, please take a look at the thread I started a few weeks ago. Here is the link for convenience:
> 
> https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/cyanobacteria-identification-at-last.60496/
> 
> I'll return later but I want to see what's going on at the ISS (NASA).
> 
> JPC



Thanks Jay/Miranda I’ll have a read.


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## Nick72

Ruskie said:


> It is just an unbranded 18w led jobby. It doesn’t have the option to dim unfortunately.
> 
> Led light



OK.

The key factors for algae are lighting, organic waste / nutrients, filtration & flow, water changes and maintenance.

Can you expand on the above and include a photo of the entire tank.


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## Ruskie

Just for reference, as I’ve also read it can appear thru neglect, I was doing daily 50% water changes for the first week and then 50% every other day for the 2nd week. 3 rd week was every 2 or 3 days.
I haven’t trimmed much as it’s a low tech tank I just wanted the plants to grow out.

edit.  Seachem stability added with every water change


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## Ruskie

Full tank shot





Filter is an Oase filtosmart 100 external
Tank is 50x30x30 45L


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## Ruskie

Picture taken just this second.

5x RCS were added yesterday


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## dw1305

Hi all,





Ruskie said:


> Picture taken just this second.


Plant growth looks pretty good. 





MirandaB said:


> Does look like Cyano (BGA) to me





Ruskie said:


> Filter is an Oase filtosmart 100 external


Definitely cyanobacteria, bit of a strange question but what media do you have in your filter? and have you cleaned the pre-filter at all? 





MirandaB said:


> UK and antibiotics are not available over the counter here


There is an almost <"perfect correlation"> between <"antibiotic sales and bacterial resistance">. 

cheers Darrel


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## Nick72

Nice scape.

Sounds like you are keeping up with the maintenance.

Tank looks clean.  You've got good growth.

You may just be getting a nutrient surge from the new aqua soil.

I would manually remove the algae, including taking the wood out and scrubbing it.  Removing any leaves or stems effected.

Perhaps go down to one dose of fertiliser per week for the next couple of weeks (but keep an eye on the plants - if the suffer go back to two doses).

Try cutting the lighting to five hours a day.

That's about all I can think of.


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## Ruskie

@dw1305 Thanks, I was quite surprised by the amount of growth in the 3 and a bit weeks the tank has been running and thought I was doing ok so I am a little miffed by all this.

In the filter I use the default sponges supplied by Oase but I’ve put in Matrix, in filter bags, instead of the standard ceramic tubes supplied. I had a 500ml tub and still have some left so I estimate about 400ml in there split between 2 filter bags. I used bags figuring it would be easier to remove and rinse once required.
Pre filter has been rinsed once since setup. Rinsed in tank water just to be safe?!?


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## Ruskie

@Nick72 Thanks. As said above, thought I was doing ok so this is a bit of kick in the teeth. As a newbie your never sure if it’s something that you’ve done.


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## Nick72

Does the tank get any direct or indirect sunlight during the day?


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## Ruskie

Nick72 said:


> Does the tank get any direct or indirect sunlight during the day?



Nope. It obviously gets natural light during the day but is not in direct sunlight.


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## hypnogogia

I was always under the impression that excess phosphates promote BGA.  It’s also associated with poor maintenance, although in your case that doesn’t seem to be the cause.   Do you d9 water change with straight tap water? Have you checked your tap water for phosphates.  Often, during dry periods, phosphates run high, and when it does rain there is run off from agricultural fertilisation.


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Ruskie said:


> Pre filter has been rinsed once since setup. Rinsed in tank water just to be safe?!?


I'd probably try and clean then every week, a rinse in the tank water is usually preferred. I'll be honest I just run the sponges under the cold tap, because we have fairly low levels of chlorination in the UK. 

We don't know what causes BGA "outbreaks" (as you may have gathered from the the other threads), but it may be linked to high levels of organic matter and low levels of oxygen in the filter, hence my question and why @Nick72 asked about flow.  Personally I'd just syphon it out and I'm pretty sure as the plants grow fully in it will go away. 

In terms of the filter "Matrix" is fine as a <"biological filter medium">, because we have planted tanks we don't need (or want) <"anaerobic denitrification"> to occur in the filter, and plants will mop up <"nitrates etc."> for us.    

cheers Darrel


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## Ruskie

hypnogogia said:


> I was always under the impression that excess phosphates promote BGA.  It’s also associated with poor maintenance, although in your case that doesn’t seem to be the cause.   Do you d9 water change with straight tap water? Have you checked your tap water for phosphates.  Often, during dry periods, phosphates run high, and when it does rain there is run off from agricultural fertilisation.



I do the water change straight from tap and then add API stress coat+. I add this to the tank once I've finished the change.

I don’t any test kits or the like so I have no idea about phosphates in the tap water. I’m going to see if I can find some kind of water report online.


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## Ruskie

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, I'd probably try and clean then every week, a rinse in the tank water is usually preferred. I'll be honest I just run the sponges under the cold tap, because we have fairly low levels of chlorination in the UK.
> 
> We don't know what causes BGA "outbreaks" (as you may have gathered from the the other threads), but it may be linked to high levels of organic matter and low levels of oxygen in the filter, hence my question and why @Nick72 asked about flow.  Personally I'd just syphon it out and I'm pretty sure as the plants grow fully in it will go away.
> 
> In terms of the filter "Matrix" is fine as a <"biological filter medium">, because we have planted tanks we don't need (or want) <"anaerobic denitrification"> to occur in the filter, and plants will mop up <"nitrates etc."> for us.
> 
> cheers Darrel



As you’ve probably noticed I have the spin type outflow pipe in the tank. Do you think it’s possible this is creating flow around the perimeter of the tank thus causing a ‘dead spot’ in the central areas. Would I perhaps benefit from using a standard lily pipe?


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## jaypeecee

Hi @Ruskie


dw1305 said:


> We don't know what causes BGA "outbreaks" (as you may have gathered from the the other threads), but it may be linked to high levels of organic matter and low levels of oxygen in the filter, hence my question and why @Nick72 asked about flow. Personally I'd just syphon it out and I'm pretty sure as the plants grow fully in it will go away.


Low water flow in any part of the tank is probably what kick-starts the process of a cyanobacterial outbreak. This allows just one fragment of cyanobacteria to settle on the substrate and start growing. Then, other free fragments in the water column settle in the same (or more) colonies. I have scientific research papers going into detail as to how this happens. But, then, it's a collection of elements (nutrients) that may, or may not, fuel its growth depending on their relative proportions. Many of the heavy metals such as copper, nickel and cobalt all play their part. It is hugely complex and different types of cyanobacteria behave differently. I identified _Oscillatoria_ as being the type of cyano in one of my tanks. And that's the subject of the thread I started.

I wouldn't place much faith in hoping that it will just go away - that's not been my experience. And I can't see a good reason for thinking why it would happen.

JPC


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## Ruskie

@jaypeecee 

You posted a reply as I was typing the question about flow 

I’ve read your thread and to be honest a lot of it does go straight over my head, I am not scientific if any shape or form. I will reread until hopefully bits start sinking in 

I see you found a solution though which I will look into.


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## Ruskie

Not sure if this is of any use but this is apparently the latest report from my water supplier. Ashamedly it means nothing to me.

*What's in your water?*

SubstanceTypical ValueUK/European limitUnitAluminium8.3200µg Al/lCalcium42.3-mg Ca/lResidual chlorine - free0.37-mg/l Cl2Residual chlorine - total0.46-mg/l Cl2Colour120mg/l Pt/Co ScaleConductivity2552500µS/cmCopper0.02742mg Cu/lEColi00no/100mlFluoride0.061.5mg F/lIron8.8200µg Fe/lLead0.1510µg Pb/lMagnesium4.1-mg Mg/lManganese0.850µg Mn/INitrate6.7950mg NO3/lNitrite0.0020.5mg NO2/lSodium14.2200mg Na/lTotalColiforms00no/100mlTurbidity0.174NTUpH (Hydrogen Ion Conc.)7.66.5 - 9.5pH Units


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## jaypeecee

Ruskie said:


> I see you found a solution though which I will look into.



Hi @Ruskie 

I have spent hundreds of hours trying to solve the cyano conundrum. I am a scientist but not in the microbiology field. Fortunately, I could understand enough of the scientific papers to realize that only a true specialist in this field would ever get to the bottom of it. Being photosynthetic organisms, this form of bacteria uses light just like plants. But, cyano needs very little light to grow. However, the rate at which it grows will depend on the intensity/brightness and colour spectrum of the light. In fact, cyano makes use of a part of the spectrum (yellow/orange) that is of no/little use to plants. It probably puts up its feet and basks in it. There's plenty of yellow/orange light in some of the aquarium lighting products currently on the market. But, it _is_ needed for our benefit in order to make plants look nice. As with so many things, it's a case of finding the right balance.

I'll stop there - for the moment.

JPC


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## jaypeecee

Ruskie said:


> Not sure if this is of any use but this is apparently the latest report from my water supplier. Ashamedly it means nothing to me.



Hi again, @Ruskie 

Those figures appear to be typical for your geographical region. No major surprises there. It's interesting that they only provide typical values. Some water companies, including my own, publish maximum, mean and minimum values.

JPC


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## Ruskie

jaypeecee said:


> Hi again, @Ruskie
> 
> Those figures appear to be typical for your geographical region. No major surprises there. It's interesting that they only provide typical values. Some water companies, including my own, publish maximum, mean and minimum values.
> 
> JPC



The report is just one I found on their website for my supply/area code. I can request a more detailed one I believe. Is that needed?

I feel I have a better, albeit very limited, understanding of what might be occurring at least thanks to the knowledgeable people in this thread.

So, plan of action.

Ive ordered some Blue Exit that’s due in a couple of days.
Syphon what I can out and clean the wood best I can.
Continue with the regular water changes and clean the filter a little more frequently.
Look at maybe purchasing a standard lily pipe instead of the spin type to change up the flow.
Reduce photoperiod and ferts for a while.
Pray.

Sound reasonable?

Appreciate the input from everybody


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## jaypeecee

Hi @Ruskie



Ruskie said:


> The report is just one I found on their website for my supply/area code. I can request a more detailed one I believe. Is that needed?



No, it will not be needed (by me, anyway).



Ruskie said:


> Ive ordered some Blue Exit that’s due in a couple of days.
> Syphon what I can out and clean the wood best I can.
> Continue with the regular water changes and clean the filter a little more frequently.
> Look at maybe purchasing a standard lily pipe instead of the spin type to change up the flow.
> Reduce photoperiod and ferts for a while.
> Pray.



Sounds like a good start. Once you've got the _Blue Exit_, let us know. I'm confident that the _Blue Exit_ will start to show visible effects within about three days. But, please be aware that it may be necessary to purchase a UV-C sterilizer to finish the job off - once and for all. There is no need to purchase it yet. Let's wait and see how things unfold. I'd also consider alternatives to changing your lily pipe in order to improve flow.

JPC


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## Ruskie

jaypeecee said:


> I'd also consider alternatives to changing your lily pipe in order to improve flow.




Im showing my lack of knowledge again but could you elaborate on the above please?

I originally purchased the spin outflow figuring that with the tank being non CO2 it would be ample in my smaller tank.
I also thought the Oase filter would be adequate but now I’m second guessing myself.

I thought I had done a lot of reading/research before diving in, clearly not  
I guess there’s no substitute for getting your hands mucky and learning the hard way!!


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## jaypeecee

Ruskie said:


> Im showing my lack of knowledge again but could you elaborate on the above please?



Hi @Ruskie 

No problem. The primary function of filtration systems such as the Oase is to do just that - provide _filtration_. And, of course, this means a certain amount of _flow_.  But, in order to ensure good distribution of nutrients around the tank and reduce the likelihood of cyano taking hold, it is sometimes necessary to supplement this with such things as circulation pumps, for example. But, this may not be necessary in your case whilst not using CO2. I believe it may be @Wookii who is currently investigating water flow in some detail. I suggest you search for threads by @Wookii for more information.

So, just to be clear, I'm _not_ suggesting that you change your lily pipe. You may decide that this is fine and will, in conjunction with your Oase filter, be perfectly adequate.

Does this clarify things?

JPC


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Ruskie said:


> I originally purchased the spin outflow figuring that with the tank being non CO2 it would be ample in my smaller tank.
> I also thought the Oase filter would be adequate but now I’m second guessing myself.


I think you are doing fine, plant growth is good and <"that  is the most important thing">. 

You haven't done anything wrong,  cyanobacteria, diatoms, green algae etc. are <"pretty much universal where you have liquid water">. All tanks will have them, it is just a case of getting a balance where you have more of the <"plants you want">, and less of the "plants you don't want".

I think of all the intersecting factors as forming a <"shades of grey"> world, where you just need to keep tweaking until you find a grey shade that you are happy with. Some people are never going to be happy unless they have "black" or "white", but for me grey is fine.

cheers Darrel


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## Ruskie

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Ruskie
> Does this clarify things?



Perfect, thanks. Sorry for all the questions, really appreciate your time.



dw1305 said:


> Hi all, I think you are doing fine, plant growth is good and <"that  is the most important thing">.
> 
> You haven't done anything wrong,  cyanobacteria, diatoms, green algae etc. are <"pretty much universal where you have liquid water">. All tanks will have them, it is just a case of getting a balance where you have more of the <"plants you want">, and less of the "plants you don't want".
> cheers Darrel


 
Thanks, I guess I just needed clarification it wasn't something I was doing wrong.


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## Ruskie

A quick update after an erm interesting evening!

So, I’ve done another big water change and a clean today. I removed the wood and cleaned it the best I could. It came out pretty good to be fair and the gunky slime, which stinks btw, came off the wood quite easily. Not so off the moss. Also cleaned the pre filter which wasn’t actually that bad.






There is one piece of wood at the front of the tank that is glued firmly in place and didn’t really want to move so I left that in place complete with slime so I have something to reference once the Blue Exit arrives.





Then the fun really started.
When reconnecting the hose connector back onto the filter I somehow managed to knock off one of the pipes. Cue water spraying everywhere and my missus shouting about water on the carpet. In my haste to grab the pipe and sort it out guess what, I knocked off the other one - a proper calamity!!   I really need to figure out how to attach these better as I did this when I first set the filter up. I need some thicker hose I think as the stuff I have is quite thin.

It’s fair to say I’ve had enough tonight and am now reaching for a beer


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## hypnogogia

It’s only water and won’t stain. Enjoy your beer.


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## jaypeecee

Hi @Ruskie 

Hope you've recovered from yesterday evening's ordeal!

I've just been looking again at your lily pipe outlet. I would imagine that the flow from that shape is very gentle. Do your plants sway in the flow of the water or are they almost stationary?

JPC


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## Ruskie

@jaypeecee

All part of the learning curve 

The flow is gentle but the plants do sway albeit not much. I’m worried that with the design of the outflow I will be getting decent (ish?) flow around the edge of the tank but I might be susceptible to a dead spot in the central area. The first bit of cyano I spotted was some moss which is pretty much dead centre.

The other thing that actually dawned on me this morning was that for the first 2 weeks the tank was in a temporary location on a shelf with the filter on the floor. Since then it has been moved onto a cupboard unit which is higher than the shelf it was on previously but the filter is still in the bottom of the cupboard. I’m wondering if this increase in head height has affected the flow more than I thought it would?!?
I’m at work currently but I need to have a measure and see what I’m dealing with. It may all just be coincidence but it won’t hurt to move the filter up a shelf


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Ruskie said:


> but the filter is still in the bottom of the cupboard. I’m wondering if this increase in head height has affected the flow more than I thought it would?!?


Head height will make a lot of difference to flow. I like to have my external filters <"at (just below) the tank height">, with a short run of hosing, just enough excess hose to ensure that the hose doesn't kink.

Eheim (all my external filters are <"2nd hand Eheims">) recommend at least 4" (10cm) of head height (water surface at least 10cm above the top of the filter),  but some of my filters will have slightly less than that.

Another good thing about having very little head height is that it reminds you to keep the pre-filter and hoses clean, because as soon as you don't you keep them clean you begin to get trapped air issues.

cheers Darrel


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## Ruskie

So, just got home and done a quick measurement and I’m pushing towards the max head height recommended for the filter, not ideal 
Looks like I’ve got a reshuffling job to do at the weekend! Think this is the route I’ll take first before messing with the lily pipes.

The Blue Exit has also arrived but after reading the instructions I’m a little concerned.
Instructions state to dose consecutively for 5 days and it should clear by 10 days after the last dose, fair enough.

What has me concerned is that it states not to do a water change for 14 days after the first dose, is this going to be ok?
Bare in mind the tank will only be a month old in a couple of days so I’m still doing frequent changes. Will I not just be promoting other unwanteds?


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## jaypeecee

Hi @Ruskie


Ruskie said:


> The Blue Exit has also arrived but after reading the instructions I’m a little concerned.
> Instructions state to dose consecutively for 5 days and it should clear by 10 days after the last dose, fair enough.
> 
> What has me concerned is that it states not to do a water change for 14 days after the first dose, is this going to be ok?
> Bare in mind the tank will only be a month old in a couple of days so I’m still doing frequent changes. Will I not just be promoting other unwanteds?



OK, I hear you. You are right to point this out.

Please remind me what stage you are at with your tank. Specifically, what inhabitants do you have? How are you planning to establish a microbial colony to break down fish waste, etc? Many people on UKAPS allocate this task to the plants. I favour a different approach but I value my life so I'd better keep hush. 

JPC


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## Ruskie

Right.

So as stated tank will have been running for 4 weeks this coming Thursday.

Filter has standard, as shipped, course and medium sponges but instead of using the ceramic tubes supplied for biofiltration I added Seachem Matrix -Installed from day 1.

Week 1 - 50% water change every day.
Week 2 - 50% every 2 days.
Week 3 - 50% every 2/3 days.
So far this week water change on Saturday and yesterday.
Seachem stability added with EVERY water change.

5x RCS added just last Saturday (all doing well) -no other inhabitants.


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## jaypeecee

Hi @Ruskie 

Thanks for that. 

I have never used _Seachem Stability_ but using this is a similar approach to that which I adopt. I strongly suggest that you read the 'Related Articles' on the _Seachem Stability_ web page:

https://www.seachem.com/stability.php

If you're using tap water, did you 'condition' it with _Seachem Prime_, for example? And, may I ask why you are doing all the water changes? How are you planning to monitor what's going on in your water? At the very least, I would suggest that you keep an eye on ammonia and nitrite. If you opt for _Seachem Prime_, it would be advisable to use the _Seachem MultiTest Ammonia_ kit:

https://seachem.com/multitest-ammonia.php

and, dare I add another test kit to the list:

https://seachem.com/multitest-nitrite.php

Before you take any decisions about purchasing the items I have suggested, let's re-visit this tomorrow. Try not to rush things. Patience will pay off umpteen times over in the end.

BTW, I'm not on commission from Seachem! But, in my opinion, they are one of the best aquatics companies around.

Sleep well and try not to dream about fish, shrimps or plants!

JPC


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## jaypeecee

Hi @Ruskie

You could, of course, ignore what I've said and leave everything to the plants. Or, a combination of both methods. It's entirely up to you.

JPC


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## Ruskie

@jaypeecee 

Thanks again.

I feel like we are falling down a rabbit hole here  Let me try and clarify a little.

•Tap water was treated with API stress cost+.
•Big and frequent water changes were done as everything I read and watched stated this was the most efficient way to deal with excess ammonia released from the new substrate so was beneficial to do in a new tank.
•Although, as stated before, I am not scientific at all I do have a basic understanding of the nitrogen cycle and the cycling of a new tank.
•I was under the impression test kits were deemed somewhat unreliable and a better gauge was plant growth/health.

FWIW I do have an old Nurtrifin mini master test kit kicking about somewhere that was given to me some time ago. I presumed these have a shelf life tho so have never dug it out. I guess I could give it a try?

So with regards your last post I guess I have been using a combination of both methods and I should rephrase my question/concern -

‘After 1 month is my tank stable enough to be able to go 2 weeks without a water change?’

Obviously I want to start using the Blue Exit soonish to try and nip the cyano in the bud but I don’t want to rush into it and crash my tank.


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## Nick72

I’m with JPC on this one.

i would be testing Amonnia, Nitrite and Nitrates every day.

i would only do water change once a week on a cycling tank.

Excess ammonia from substrate is very useful to get the cycle started and only a problem if over 4ppm.

if ammonia is less than 1ppm in the first few weeks I would be supplementing ammonia to feed the cycle.

Once you have seen the Nitrites build up, then disappear, then seen the Nitrates build up while the ammonia vanishes, then the cycle is complete.


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## dw1305

Hi all,
I've not linked in any threads, because the scientific background to this is all listed on <"page 4. of @Miss-Pepper "Bedside Aquarium"  thread">.





Nick72 said:


> Excess ammonia from substrate is very useful to get the cycle started and only a problem if over 4ppm. if ammonia is less than 1ppm in the first few weeks I would be supplementing ammonia to feed the cycle.


@Nick72  you may not have read all of our cycling posts. I know that you are a <"relatively recent member of the forum">, but this is based on advice that has been totally superseded by relatively recent scientific advances. Read what Dr Tim Hovanec says in <"Bacteria Revealed">. 





Ruskie said:


> I feel like we are falling down a rabbit hole here


Every-one will have a different opinion of the best way forward.

I think there are thing we all agree on :

We would like to know what the levels of ammonia (NH3), nitrite (NO2) and nitrate (NO3) are in our tanks. I'm a scientist, I would really like to know.
We want efficient nitrification via biological filtration.
We want stable and resilient systems, which aren't continually plagued by problems.
After that there is going to be a divergence of opinion as to how you achieve this.  I've taken an approach of trying to avoid any single points of failure and look at probability and risk management, using visual signs of tank health.

My opinion is:

Make sure your plants are in active growth. Plant/microbe filtration is *a lot more efficient* than "microbe only" filtration.
Microbial nitrification is, nearly always, *limited by oxygen*.
Good things come to those who wait.
*Definitely don't add any ammonia* and keep up the water changes.
*Don't make decisions based on test kit results*, they aren't reliable enough.
cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee

Hi Everyone,


dw1305 said:


> ...this is based on advice that has been totally superseded by relatively recent scientific advances. Read what Dr Tim Hovanec says in <"Bacteria Revealed">.



What Dr Tim Hovanec talked about in that article demonstrated that "...Nitrobacter winogradskyi and its close relatives are not the nitrite-oxidizing bacteria in aquariums. Rather, this task falls to the Nitrospira-like bacteria". Nothing more, nothing less. But, nitrification as a process is as real as it ever was, isn't it? Whether it's bacteria or an assemblage of bacteria and Archaea is the finer detail. That's how I see it. Have I got the wrong end of the stick?

JPC


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## dw1305

Hi all,





jaypeecee said:


> But, nitrification as a process is as real as it ever was, isn't it?


Yes, it definitely is, that was the initial reason that I didn't think that the traditional view of nitrification (and "cycling") was correct.

The dichotomy for me was:

Ammonia (and fixed nitrogen in general) is a rare resource and limits productivity in many ecosystems, but
only a few bacteria can convert ammonia to nitrite, and they are restricted to situations with high alkalinity and ammonia loadings.
It just  <"doesn't make any evolutionary sense">. There is a more complete discussion in <"Has my tank instantly cycled....">





jaypeecee said:


> "...Nitrobacter winogradskyi and its close relatives are not the nitrite-oxidizing bacteria in aquariums. Rather, this task falls to the Nitrospira-like bacteria".


The more recent research suggests that _Nitrospira_  spp. are much more important in  aquarium filters than had been realised, this is partially because they've found that they are <"COMAMMOX microorganisms and can directly oxidise ammonia to nitrate">.

For most  microbial nitrification, away from initial sewage treatment, it looks like Ammonia Oxidising Archaeae (AOA) are the most important organisms for the conversion of ammonia (NH3/NH4+) to nitrite (NO2-) and that the _Nitrospira_ bacteria utilise both ammonia and nitrite, converting them to nitrate (NO3-).





jaypeecee said:


> Whether it's bacteria or an assemblage of bacteria and Archaea is the finer detail. That's how I see it. Have I got the wrong end of the stick?


No, but I think the <"devil is in the detail"> and that high ammonia loadings may delay the formation of a stable microbial assemblage.   





dw1305 said:


> There are a number of recent scientific papers specifically on the nitrifying organisms in aquarium filters, which suggest that their assemblage shows a fluid response to varying ammonia loadings, with a stable core of Archaea and an ever changing cast of nitrifying bacteria.
> 
> This is described in <"Freshwater Recirculating Aquaculture System Operations Drive Biofilter Bacterial Community Shifts around a Stable Nitrifying Consortium of Ammonia-Oxidizing _Archaea_ and Comammox _Nitrospira"_>, Bagchi _et al _(2014) <"Temporal and Spatial Stability of Ammonia-Oxidizing Archaea and Bacteria in Aquarium Biofilters">
> & <"Kinetic analysis of a complete nitrifier reveals an oligotrophic lifestyle">.
> 
> The last study (published in the journal <"Nature">) found that high ammonia levels inhibit the growth of _Nitrospira._


I was looking at a paper yesterday on transporting live sea-food to market in Japan, that is quite interesting <"Total ammonia nitrogen (TAN) removal performance of a recirculating down-hanging sponge (DHS) reactor">. There is also a useful review article Stein, L, 2019 <"Insights into the physiology of ammonia-oxidizing microorganisms"> _Current Opinion in Chemical Biology" _*43* pp 9:15.

I can get the full-text of both if any-one wants a copy?

cheers Darrel


----------



## jaypeecee

dw1305 said:


> I can get the full-text of both if any-one wants a copy?



Hi @dw1305 

I have all the papers that are on your list with the exception of the last two. So, yes, I'd like to add them to my Dropbox 'library'.

A couple of years ago, I read pretty much every available paper on the subjects of nitrification and denitrification. I wrote a draft article about setting up a biological filter to handle nitrification only. But, it was slightly different from what I'd read previously in that I geared it towards those people who may be setting up a biological filter using RO water as the starting point. I never published it. And, in the process of writing this document, I consulted none other than Dr Tim Hovanec who kindly replied.

JPC


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @dw1305 ,

How are we to reconcile these two:


dw1305 said:


> We would like to know what the levels of ammonia (NH3), nitrite (NO2) and nitrate (NO3) are in our tanks. I'm a scientist, I would really like to know.





dw1305 said:


> *Don't make decisions based on test kit results*, they aren't reliable enough.



If we don't use test kits, how can we possibly know the levels of NH3/NH4, NO2 and NO3 in our tanks? I don't have a problem using test kits for each of these three parameters. They have proven to be perfectly reliable for tanks that I have cycled. And they are used quite successfully by other fishkeepers on another forum on which I'm a member.

JPC


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





jaypeecee said:


> So, yes, I'd like to add them to my Dropbox 'library'.


PM an address and I'll email them. 





jaypeecee said:


> I consulted none other than Dr Tim Hovanec who kindly replied.


I've got a lot of time for <"Tim Hovanec">.





jaypeecee said:


> about setting up a biological filter to handle nitrification only


Good idea, that is definitely what I'm recommending,  filters as <"nitrate factories"> and plants, with the aerial advantage, to suck up the  nitrates.

There is a bit of research on it in the waste water industry as the <"Extended aeration or complete  oxidation"> process.  It has some down-sides in waste water situations, because the end product is CO2 which is out-gassed to the atmosphere, but that isn't an issue in aquarium filters.  

Both aquaculture and waste water treatment are now mainly looking at systems where there is a <"spatial or temporal separation"> of aerobic nitrification and anaerobic denitrification, this is because it reduces CO2 emission and the amount of expensive aeration,  and also because the physical footprint of the water-treatment works/filter can be smaller.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Ruskie

So, just to stir up the fun even more ...... 

I had a rummage last night and dug out the old test kit I had kicking about - which, according to what’s gone on above, may or may not be of any use 

Best before 31/04/2014 hmmmm

I spent 15 mins trying to find it so thought what the hell, might as well try it.

Ammonia - 0 mg/l
Nitrite - 0.1 mg/l
Nitrate - Somewhere between 5 & 10 mg/l

Read into that what you will, it’s an out of date test kit


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @dw1305

I am acutely aware that we are not helping @Ruskie decide how best to proceed. So, we need to bring this to some satisfactory conclusion very soon. Please bear with us, @Ruskie.


dw1305 said:


> The dichotomy for me was:
> 
> Ammonia (and fixed nitrogen in general) is a rare resource and limits productivity in many ecosystems, but
> only a few bacteria can convert ammonia to nitrite, and they are restricted to situations with high alkalinity and ammonia loadings.



What happens in natural settings? Are nitrifying bacteria non-existent in streams, rivers and lakes? Is there no ammonia being produced by decaying animal and vegetable matter? Would it be possible for you to start a thread on this very subject? I, for one, would be very interested in benefitting from your specialist knowledge.

JPC


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





jaypeecee said:


> If we don't use test kits, how can we possibly know the levels of NH3/NH4, NO2 and NO3 in our tanks?


 I just need to ensure that the levels of ammonia and nitrite are always well below their toxicity thresholds. If I have a tank with lots of plants (including some with the <"aerial advantage">), and high levels of dissolved oxygen, scientific research, and my experience, tells me that it is going to fulfill these requirements. All I need to do then is avoid any single points of failure which would compromise either of those factors. 

I don't need to know the levels of all the nutrients, I'd really like to, but it isn't essential. Nitrate I'm less worried about, I can use the <"Duckweed Index and a conductivity"> measurement to give me a proxy for nutrient content. If you will the duckweed index (and the behaviour and appearance of its inhabitants) is my biotic index for the tank.

This is actually the approach we take in the field you use <"a biotic index with a bioassay organism">, or assemblage, of  <"experimentally defined tolerances">. There are also some <"citizen science projects"> using this approach.

If I sample the invertebrate assemblage in a stream and I find Stonefly (Plecoptera) larvae in that assemblage, I don't need to go any further, I know the water quality is good and that dissolved oxygen levels have been consistently high. If I want to know exactly how clean the water has been I just need to go through that sample and get the ASPT and  MNWH (Modified New Walley Hawkes) scores. If I wanted to get empirical proof of the water quality, on the day we sampled, I would need to use the five day BOD test. 

Same applies to the vascular plant assemblage. If I go to a pond and find it has <"abundant Charophytes">, I know we are dealing with a low nutrient environment. If I take a water & sediment sample from a stream I could potentially spend a long time in the lab. and get a <"Trophic Diatom Index">.  

cheers Darrel


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





jaypeecee said:


> What happens in natural settings? Are nitrifying bacteria non-existent in streams, rivers and lakes? Is there no ammonia being produced by decaying animal and vegetable matter?


I think that the answer is that every single natural environment will have nitrifying organisms, they are ubiquitous. 

The nature of this microbial assemblage will be controlled by the <"amount, and composition, of the nutrients available">. 

Since we had mechanisms to look for the genes that oxidise ammonia in the natural environment they have popped up absolutely everywhere.

If you want another analogy it is not that long ago we were looking at the night sky with a very small optical telescope and counting the stars, now we have the Hubble Space Telescope and we've found a lot more stars. In this case the "small optical telescope" is the bacteria we could culture from sewage in a petri dish and the "Hubble Space Telescope" is the assemblage that we can find using RNA and DNA libraries.

cheers Darrel


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @dw1305 

I'm having problems quoting material from post #52 above. So, I'll try a different approach. I was talking about "setting up a biological filter to handle nitrification only", i.e. NH3>NO2>NO3. But you then say 





dw1305 said:


> Good idea, that is definitely what I'm recommending, filters as <"nitrate factories"> and plants, with the aerial advantage, to suck up the nitrates.


 But, if plants absorb NH3 or NO2 in preference to NO3, then why bother using biological filtration at all?

JPC


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





jaypeecee said:


> But, if plants absorb NH3 or NO2 in preference to NO3, then why bother using biological filtration at all?


<"Belt and braces really"> and for some flow.  I just want to keep levels of NH3 and NO2- as low as possible, I really don't care whether they are taken up by plants or enter microbial filtration. 

I've often concentrated on nitrate on other forums, because the <"mistaken desire"> to have anaerobic denitrification of nitrate is often the reason why people have problems with their filters and set-ups.

Have a look at @Bart Hazes <"blog posts"> for more discussion. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## jaypeecee

dw1305 said:


> I just need to ensure that the levels of ammonia and nitrite are always well below their toxicity thresholds.



Exactly. And I, for one, don't have the benefit of your considerable experience. I'll stick with ammonia, nitrite and nitrate test kits. I greatly admire the fact that you are able to do what you do. But, many of us don't have that hands-on knowledge. You have a skill that I, most certainly, don't possess.

JPC


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





jaypeecee said:


> Exactly. And I, for one, don't have the benefit of your considerable experience.


It was lack of expertise that made me think about <"simple metrics you could use to define successful fish-keeping">. 

I initially thought that I would find meters and chemical test kits that would work across the whole range of freshwater water types, but it soon became apparent that there were a <"myriad of difficulties">. 

The only two measurement techniques that worked universally across all the fresh-water types, without any need for interpretation, were conductivity and dissolved oxygen. The problem with dissolved oxygen was that the meter was very expensive and it really needed to work, as a data logger, 24/7 365 days of the year.

Which <"just left conductivity">. It was at that point I started thinking about methodologies that weren't reliant on test kit, or meter, results.  

*A picture is worth a thousand words*
Bit of a strange title, but if I'm lost and need directions I want some-one to draw me a map, not to tell me me to "_turn left at the 4th junction and right at the next one"_ etc.  or if some-one gives me a data set and I want to look at the interaction between multiple factors , I'm going to start by plotting the data, because a picture is worth a thousand words. 

It is the <"same with the tank">, I want a picture. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @dw1305 

I have been keeping (and, occasionally, breeding) fish for about 20 years but adding plants to the mix has proved to be a challenge. And this is where you obviously have much more knowledge and experience. But, I will continue to use test kits until such time as I see irrefutable proof of their inaccuracy. On another forum that I use, someone recently compared a 'hobby grade' nitrate test kit with a Hach professional kit costing $100. He tested tank water in a freshwater setup. The readings from the two kits tallied very closely.

JPC


----------



## jaypeecee

Ruskie said:


> I had a rummage last night and dug out the old test kit I had kicking about - which, according to what’s gone on above, may or may not be of any use
> 
> Best before 31/04/2014 hmmmm
> 
> I spent 15 mins trying to find it so thought what the hell, might as well try it.
> 
> Ammonia - 0 mg/l
> Nitrite - 0.1 mg/l
> Nitrate - Somewhere between 5 & 10 mg/l
> 
> Read into that what you will, it’s an out of date test kit



Hi @Ruskie

OK, back to the topic in hand.

Unfortunately, I wouldn't put any trust in those measurements as the test kits are seriously out-of-date.

JPC


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,
It is whatever works for you, if people use the duckweed index and it works for them, that is all well and good, if some-one else has a successful tank based on water test results, well that is all also well and good. I just want people to have successful tanks, that they can take pleasure from, I don't really mind how they get there.





jaypeecee said:


> But, I will continue to use test kits until such time as I see irrefutable proof of their inaccuracy. .....On another forum that I use, someone recently compared a 'hobby grade' nitrate test kit with a Hach professional kit costing $100. He tested tank water in a freshwater setup. The readings from the two kits tallied very closely.


And that is sort of the point, sometimes they kits will be accurate, and for some users they may always be accurate, but it isn't the case for all of  the users, all of the time.

If some-one tells me that they have recorded no nitrate, but they have to throw away great skeins of deep green duckweed every week, then I can tell them, without any probability of it being wrong, that they have plenty of nitrate and it is the test kit (or their experimental method) that is at fault. Even in these circumstances, in my experience, a certain proportion of aquarium keepers are willing to ignore the evidence of their own eyes and carry on insisting that they don't have any nitrate because that is what the test says.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Ray

Ruskie said:


> So, just to stir up the fun even more ......
> 
> I had a rummage last night and dug out the old test kit I had kicking about - which, according to what’s gone on above, may or may not be of any use
> 
> Best before 31/04/2014 hmmmm
> 
> I spent 15 mins trying to find it so thought what the hell, might as well try it.
> 
> Ammonia - 0 mg/l
> Nitrite - 0.1 mg/l
> Nitrate - Somewhere between 5 & 10 mg/l
> 
> Read into that what you will, it’s an out of date test kit



Eyeballing your tank photos (green plants that are growing), and the results, and speaking as someone who just used a set of JBL test strips he purchased in 2007 to monitor the cycling of his Betta tank* - I think these results are probably correct and you are good. No ammonia, trace nitrite and some nitrates is probably exactly what you have, give or take, and is fine.

You just cleaned and water changed, if I were you I’d proceed to dose the Blue Exit as per instructions and then monitor and report back in this thread - enquiring minds want to know! Also look at your flow situation re. filter head height .

*when I disturbed the substrate and my neerite went into lockdown the 13 year old JBL test - 7 years past its sell by date - said “you have nitrites”. I ran out to buy a new nitrite test kit and it just confirmed the old kit was still working.


----------



## jaypeecee

Ruskie said:


> The Blue Exit has also arrived but after reading the instructions I’m a little concerned.
> Instructions state to dose consecutively for 5 days and it should clear by 10 days after the last dose, fair enough.
> 
> What has me concerned is that it states not to do a water change for 14 days after the first dose, is this going to be ok?
> Bare in mind the tank will only be a month old in a couple of days so I’m still doing frequent changes. Will I not just be promoting other unwanteds?



Hi @Ruskie

Having used _Blue Exit_ previously and having outlined its usage in the following thread, I suggest that we just pause for a moment before proceeding. Is that OK? In the first instance, I haven't yet had the opportunity to answer your question above.

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/cyanobacteria-identification-at-last.60496/

BTW, I have PM'd you.

JPC


----------



## Ruskie

Well, looks you all had fun in this afternoon’s ‘science-off’  

As always, appreciate all the comments 

I have a plan mapped out in my head, I think, of how I want to proceed but that is always subject to change 

I think before I start dosing I want to sort the head height and potential flow issue out with my filter. With work commitments atm I’m not going to get chance to do this until sometime this weekend. What’s a few more days huh?
After that is sorted then I can then think of maybe moving onto the next phase.


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @Ruskie


Ruskie said:


> I have a plan mapped out in my head, I think, of how I want to proceed but that is always subject to change



May I suggest you draw out your plan and let us take a look at it? We can then give you our feedback. How does that sound? You could just draw (by hand) a rough-and-ready flow chart. Then, photograph it and upload here on this thread. In the meantime, here are a few thoughts:

1 Although you very recently tested for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, the test kit was seriously out-of-date. But, that's not to say the figures were incorrect. For reasons that we discussed yesterday, it is likely that you will benefit from repeating these three tests - perhaps on a daily basis. If it's within your budget, I would suggest replacing these kits with new ones. But, right now, I'm not sure which manufacturer's test kits to advise. And, I'm also unsure about the use of Seachem Prime because of something I've just discovered about it. I can't remember if it was here on UKAPS or A N Other Forum that I was very recently singing the praises of Seachem products! I'll check this out today.

2 I would have thought the Tropica Aquarium Soil would still be leaching substances into the water. This is what Tropica have to say about it:

"Aquarium Soil is further an active bottom layer that lowers the pH value and slightly affects the water chemistry.
We recommend that you change 25-50% of the water min. twice a week during the first 4 weeks after establishing the aquarium".

A quick conductivity check of your tank water should confirm any leaching. Conductivity meters are one of the best tools that every aquarist should own. Plus, they are low-cost instruments. The company, DAQUA, should have a good choice:

https://daqua.co.uk

That'll do for the moment.

JPC


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @Ruskie


jaypeecee said:


> Although you very recently tested for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, the test kit was seriously out-of-date. But, that's not to say the figures were incorrect. For reasons that we discussed yesterday, it is likely that you will benefit from repeating these three tests - perhaps on a daily basis. If it's within your budget, I would suggest replacing these kits with new ones. But, right now, I'm not sure which manufacturer's test kits to advise. And, I'm also unsure about the use of Seachem Prime because of something I've just discovered about it. I can't remember if it was here on UKAPS or A N Other Forum that I was very recently singing the praises of Seachem products! I'll check this out today.



Returning to the above, my concern arose because of the way in which _Seachem Prime_ works. I have known for some time that it can cause false positives for ammonia when _Prime_-treated water is tested using other manufacturers' test kits, e.g. API. But, it appears that this can also occur, perhaps not surprisingly, when testing for nitrite and nitrate with other manufacturers' nitrite and nitrate test kits. I therefore think it's best to ensure that the tap water conditioner, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate test kits are all produced by one, and the same, manufacturer. And, I would strongly suggest contacting the manufacturer to confirm that you will get reliable and accurate measurements. I have found Seachem's technical support to be pretty good. API and NT Labs (UK) are also half-decent.

You may want to look at this:

https://www.seachem.com/support/for.../1930-prime-and-reading-nitrite-levels?t=4055

JPC


----------



## Ruskie

Just a quick response, I’m far too busy tonight 😕

I don’t use Seachem Prime to treat the water, I use API stress coat+

I have used Seachem Stability with every water change (of which there have been many- outlined in this thread somewhere) to help promote beneficial bacteria.


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @Ruskie


Ruskie said:


> I don’t use Seachem Prime to treat the water, I use API stress coat+
> 
> I have used Seachem Stability with every water change (of which there have been many- outlined in this thread somewhere) to help promote beneficial bacteria.



OK, no problem. In which case, it makes sense to continue with the _API Stress Coat+_ and use _API _ammonia, nitrite and nitrate test kits. I have never used _Seachem Stability_ but I use _Tetra SafeStart_ instead, which is a well-proven bacterial starter.

JPC


----------



## Ruskie

So, an update.

Busy day today and the wheels are in motion.

First off the stems and H Zosterifolia have had a good trim as they were getting a little out of control - My pruning skills leave a lot to be desired, something else I need to learn 






Just out of curiosity, and to please all parties , I purchased another test kit and binned my old one.

Ammonia - 0 - 0.25ppm
(I thought 0, wife thought 0.25. I guess this is why some people find them inaccurate as people can read the results differently.)
Nitrite - 0ppm
Nitrate - Between 5-10ppm
PH - 6.6

Results I guess confirms what everybody already expected.

All associated glass work and tubing has had a good clean and the head height issue with the filter has hopefully been resolved.
Moving shelves about and sorting the tubing out I have shaved over 1/2m off. Flow is looking better already.

So onto the original issue, the dreaded Cyano. I feel like it is slowly beginning to spread. As well as the mosses it is now starting to affect the carpeting plants.









You can see from the photos how it’s now attached to the tips of the leafs.

My work schedule for the next week or so is pretty hectic and maintenance on the tank would have been a little bit and miss. So with that in mind and the spread of the cyano plus the work I’ve done today I’ve decided to start the Blue Exit treatment program. First dose has gone in.

So there we have it. I’m now committed to dosing for 5 straight days and no water changes for 2 weeks - Wish me luck!


----------



## jaypeecee

Ruskie said:


> My work schedule for the next week or so is pretty hectic and maintenance on the tank would have been a little bit and miss. So with that in mind and the spread of the cyano plus the work I’ve done today I’ve decided to start the Blue Exit treatment program. First dose has gone in.
> 
> So there we have it. I’m now committed to dosing for 5 straight days and no water changes for 2 weeks - Wish me luck!



Hi @Ruskie 

Is that a round of applause I hear?

May I suggest that you keep the tank light ON for the minimum possible time so as not to promote cyano growth? Obviously keeping an eye on your plants in the process. I seem to recall from earlier in your thread that it's not possible to adjust the brightness.

Please keep us updated as, and when, you have a few spare minutes.

JPC


----------



## Ruskie

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Ruskie
> 
> Is that a round of applause I hear?
> 
> May I suggest that you keep the tank light ON for the minimum possible time so as not to promote cyano growth? Obviously keeping an eye on your plants in the process. I seem to recall from earlier in your thread that it's not possible to adjust the brightness.
> 
> Please keep us updated as, and when, you have a few spare minutes.
> 
> JPC



Correct, I cannot alter the brightness. Ive already dropped the photo period down to 5 hours, hopefully that will be ok. I’ve stopped adding ferts for the time being as well so I don’t want to push it too far.
After today’s trim I figured the plants will need to recover somewhat.


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @Ruskie


Ruskie said:


> I’ve stopped adding ferts for the time being as well...



Yes, well remembered.

JPC


----------



## Ruskie

Just a quick update. Day 4 of dosing.
There are a couple of black bits appearing on some of the tips of the moss, not sure if this shows well on the attached photo or not, but overall not much progress. If anything it still appears to be spreading, tank looks a mess 





Dosing says for 5 straight days, I may just dose for a full week.
I wasn’t expecting a miracle instant improvement but I am a little disheartened. I’ll carry on though and see it through, instructions say up to 10 days after the final dose. Guess we’ll see


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @Ruskie


Ruskie said:


> Dosing says for 5 straight days, I may just dose for a full week. I wasn’t expecting a miracle instant improvement but I am a little disheartened. I’ll carry on though and see it through, instructions say up to 10 days after the final dose. Guess we’ll see



No need to be disheartened just yet. You've only been dosing _Blue Exit_ for three days as you started on Sunday. Perhaps I raised your expectations by saying what I did previously. There is no reason to think that _Blue Exit_ will be ineffective. To be fair, you have far more BGA/Cyano than I had. We may be able to increase the dose, if necessary. I will need to check my emails with _Easy-Life_, the manufacturer of this product. They gave me some good guidance on adjusting the dosage.

JPC


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @Ruskie

What's the latest news on your tank?

JPC


----------



## Ruskie

Hi @jaypeecee 

Thanks for checking in!

Honestly, it’s not looking good, tank is a mess and I’m not holding much hope of any success .













I’ve been dosing up to and including today, that’s a full week not the 5 days as suggested, but it still appears to be spreading. In places it’s now getting clumpy. I don’t know if this is the BGA just getting thicker or is an effect of the Blue Exit.

Im not going to dose anymore so, according to the instructions, it should be gone in 10 days - I’m not that hopeful.

Not being able to do water changes and a clean (as per instructions) is starting to annoy me some what as the BGA is starting to cover the front glass a little too. All in all tank is looking bad and I fear I’m going to lose my plants 

So, that’s where we are at. I’ll persevere and run the course to give it a chance. 10 days and counting.

On another note I’ve managed to get my hands on some Ultralife Blue Green Slime Stain Remover of which I’ve read good things about. Delivery is going to be a couple of weeks so there’s time for Blue Exit to redeem itself before I try something else!


----------



## Ray

What do folks think about combining treatment with a 3 day blackout?


----------



## Witcher

I'd personally increase the flow as a very first thing to slowly break the colony and not allow it to form anymore.


----------



## jaypeecee

Ruskie said:


> Im not going to dose anymore so, according to the instructions, it should be gone in 10 days - I’m not that hopeful.



Hi @Ruskie 

It's your call - obviously. But I don't think you should give up just yet. It's also just gone midnight and I need to be logging off. But, I'll be back on tomorrow morning. I do think a combination of manual removal plus an increase in dose plus a reduction in lighting would have definitely been worth a try.

JPC


----------



## jaypeecee

Ray said:


> What do folks think about combining treatment with a 3 day blackout?



Hi @Ray 

Eliminating light completely or reducing light intensity should most certainly help when dealing with cyanobacteria.

JPC


----------



## Onoma1

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Ray
> 
> Eliminating light completely or reducing light intensity should most certainly help when dealing with cyanobacteria.
> 
> JPC



I agree with @jaypeecee. The advice I was given was for a three day complete blackout followed by lots of water changes and manual removal. This cleared it up and I then focused on the causes. I found lean dosing, increasing flow,   reducing light intensity and use of floating plants worked for me.


----------



## Ray

I finally got rid of my BGA with a blackout and antibiotics I picked up in a trip to the US. This was a last resort for me after a complete nightmare that this thread is bringing back vividly. I think blackout and blue exit treatment could be effective too. I’ll quote what Clive advised me when I did mine:



> Do a 100% WC to begin with then refill, dose ferts and cover the tank. Do a 3 or even a 4 day blackout but dose at night in pitch black at 2 day intervals. At the end, 100% water change 1/2 lights if possible and continue dosing.



I’ll add you should get ensure plenty of surface agitation during the blackout because as the algae dies it rots, and also to remove as much as possible during that water change. I used good quality bin bags (check they block light) to do mine.


----------



## jaypeecee

Ray said:


> ...antibiotics I picked up in a trip to the US...



Hi @Ray 

My understanding is that the use of antibiotics for home aquatics is illegal in the UK. I'm not sure about Switzerland but I suspect it's the same there.

JPC


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





jaypeecee said:


> I do think a combination of manual removal


I'd just keep syphoning out the cyanobacteria at the moment. 





Onoma1 said:


> I found lean dosing, increasing flow, reducing light intensity and use of floating plants worked for me.


Probably that one in the longer term.

cheers Darrel


----------



## MirandaB

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Ray
> 
> My understanding is that the use of antibiotics for home aquatics is illegal in the UK. I'm not sure about Switzerland but I suspect it's the same there.
> 
> JPC



Yes antibiotics are illegal in the UK without prescription from a vet and I suspect the reason Chemiclean etc is not for sale over the counter here.
Whilst it states it does not contain Erythromycin succinate,it has a distinctive antibiotic smell to it.


----------



## Ray

jaypeecee said:


> My understanding is that the use of antibiotics for home aquatics is illegal in the UK. I'm not sure about Switzerland but I suspect it's the same there.


I am not sure.  You certainly can’t buy it over the counter in a pet store like you can In the US.  I do not condone or recommend what I did and in hindsight it was perhaps ill advised.  It seems some of us were cowboys back then: https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/erythromycin.4699/
Today, I would just blackout and use Blue Exit.


----------



## Ruskie

Thanks for the input everybody it really is appreciated. I can honestly say this is not how I envisaged my first foray into scaping/fish keeping would turn out. This is the kind of nightmare I didn’t read about when doing my research and it’s pretty heartbreaking if I’m honest.



Ray said:


> What do folks think about combining treatment with a 3 day blackout?



The more I’ve read into this the more I’ve seen this pop up.



Witcher said:


> I'd personally increase the flow as a very first thing to slowly break the colony and not allow it to form anymore.



I did this before I started dosing the treatment  by reducing the head height to the filter. The filter should give me enough? The Cyano seems to have spread more readily since I’ve done this though that could just be coincidence. I have already ordered a different  outflow pipe to use instead of the spin one I have.



jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Ruskie
> 
> It's your call - obviously. But I don't think you should give up just yet.



I haven’t given up yet! It’s just a little soul destroying to go from the excitement of the new tank growing in to a horror show in such a small amount of time.



dw1305 said:


> Hi all, I'd just keep syphoning out the cyanobacteria at the moment.



The only reason I haven’t been doing this is because I was trying to follow the manufacturers instructions to do no water changes or add any water during treatment.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Ruskie said:


> do no water changes or add any water during treatment


No, I'd definitely syphon. You don't need to remove a huge volume of water. 

If you are going to have a black-out I'd definitely try and syphon out as much BGA as possible first. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Nick72

My Fluval Plant 2.0 lights broke on the 14th June 2019.

They were under warranty and replaced with Fluval Plant 3.0 free of charge on 28th June.

What I learned from a two week blackout.

1). This kills all algae.

2). This will kill most plants.

3.) Due to algae and plant decomposition you get a massive build up of organic waste in the tank.

4).  When you reinstate the lights you get a massive algae bloom - hair, fuzz, BBA, BGA, diatoms - you name it.

I know no one is suggesting a two week blackout, but here is what I would do if I planned even a 4 day blackout.

A). Remove / Rehome as many plants as possible.

B). Do big water changes every day, or at least every other day.

C). Reintroduce as many plants as possible on lights on.  

D).  Do water changes every other day for the first week from lights on.

In truth I think i would prefer to break down the tank, give it a 100% clean, including hardscape and substrate - and start again.

You can achieve this in a few hours and probably end up in a better place.


----------



## jaypeecee

Ruskie said:


> The only reason I haven’t been doing this is because I was trying to follow the manufacturers instructions to do no water changes or add any water during treatment.



Ah, now I see why you left the cyano untouched! I think you'll find that the reason the manufacturer, _Easy-Life_, discourages water changes is simply because it dilutes the _Blue Exit_ and thus reduces its efficacy. It may be the best thing for you to email them directly with your questions and concerns. But, in parallel with that, I'll now go back over my previous emails with Easy-Life. I'll get back to you on this. I found this supplier's tech support to be pretty good and they replied the same day.

JPC


----------



## jaypeecee

Nick72 said:


> What I learned from a two week blackout.
> 
> 1). This kills all algae.



Hi @Nick72 

But, we're not dealing with algae.

JPC


----------



## Nick72

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Nick72
> 
> But, we're not dealing with algae.
> 
> JPC



1. Cyanobacteria is know as Blue / Green algae because it behaves like an algae.  

2. If waste organics from the blackout are left unchecked you will be dealing with algae.


----------



## jaypeecee

Nick72 said:


> In truth I think i would prefer to break down the tank, give it a 100% clean, including hardscape and substrate - and start again.



Hi @Nick72 

Conventional cleaning methods with cloth, sponge, scrubby and the like cannot be guaranteed to eradicate cyanobacteria. I did successfully eradicate it using a 'strong' potassium permanganate solution that I made up in situ by adding potassium permanganate crystals directly to the tank of water. Don't forget for anyone that wants to try this that potassium permanganate will stain anything in which it is in contact - including our skin! Wear suitable (long) gloves!

JPC


----------



## jaypeecee

Nick72 said:


> 1. Cyanobacteria is know as Blue / Green algae because it behaves like an algae.



Yes, I realize that we tend to refer to it as blue-green algae (aka BGA) because, at first sight it resembles algae and it photosynthesizes. In this respect, it 'behaves' like algae. But, it is a form of bacteria and needs a different approach to get rid of it.

JPC


----------



## Nick72

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Nick72
> 
> Conventional cleaning methods with cloth, sponge, scrubby and the like cannot be guaranteed to eradicate cyanobacteria. I did successfully eradicate it using a 'strong' potassium permanganate solution that I made up in situ by adding potassium permanganate crystals directly to the tank of water. Don't forget for anyone that wants to try this that potassium permanganate will stain anything in which it is in contact - including our skin! Wear suitable (long) gloves!
> 
> JPC



I have also found that SL Aqua Z2 if dosed as per instructions will nuke all plants, algae and Cyanobacteria in an aquarium without harming livestock.

I will use this in future to clean a tank for breakdown.


----------



## Nick72

jaypeecee said:


> Yes, I realize that we tend to refer to it as blue-green algae (aka BGA) because, at first sight it resembles algae and it photosynthesizes. In this respect, it 'behaves' like algae. But, it is a form of bacteria and needs a different approach to get rid of it.
> 
> JPC



There we disagree.  IMO and experience several methods that work for algae irradication also work on Cyanobacteria.

A blackout is one example.

SL Aqua Z2 is another.


----------



## Witcher

Nick72 said:


> 2). This will kill most plants.


I always looked at the blackouts like using an atomic bomb to kill the mosquito. Blackouts/chemicals/erythromycin etc. will only remove the effect, but not the source/cause of the problem.



Nick72 said:


> When you reinstate the lights you get a massive algae bloom - hair, fuzz, BBA, BGA, diatoms - you name it.


Exactly that, source of the problem won't be removed and algae will very likely come back as plants will be weakened.




Ruskie said:


> I did this before I started dosing the treatment by reducing the head height to the filter. The filter should give me enough? The Cyano seems to have spread more readily since I’ve done this though that could just be coincidence. I have already ordered a different outflow pipe to use instead of the spin one I have.



How long did you waited before the treatment? With all respect @Ruskie but you may seem to be very impatient. I'd increase the flow, suck out whatever BGA I see as per Darrel's suggestion and wait. BGA are relatively easy to combat - all you need is the flow, oxygen and healthy plants doing their job. I haven't seen any BGA in the oxygenated mountain streams etc in the nature - is it a coincidence?


----------



## jaypeecee

jaypeecee said:


> Eliminating light completely or reducing light intensity should most certainly help when dealing with cyanobacteria.



I chose my words carefully when I wrote the above. Anything that doesn't encourage growth of cyano has to be a good thing. But, it won't necessarily eliminate every single cell of the blue-green menace. That's why blackouts don't necessarily kill this stuff. Just for the record, cyano is one of the oldest living things on our planet. It has been around for approximately 3.5 billion years and, from what I've read, is responsible for the production of oxygen in our atmosphere. Mind-boggling, eh?!

JPC


----------



## Ray

Witcher said:


> I always looked at the blackouts like using an atomic bomb to kill the mosquito. Blackouts/chemicals/erythromycin etc. will only remove the effect, but not the source/cause of the problem.


In my experience it can also work like a reset button on a computer - restores a stable known state in favour of the plants.  This does have to be combined with root cause removal and a massive clean up,  of course.

Re siphoning: I think if you calculate how much Blue Exit you dosed per litre so far you could put it back in if you siphoned out what BGA you can.  I presume Easylife don’t advise that because not every customer is going to be able to correctly figure that out!?


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





jaypeecee said:


> But, it won't necessarily eliminate every single cell of the blue-green menace





jaypeecee said:


> It has been around for approximately 3.5 billion years and, from what I've read, is responsible for the production of oxygen in our atmosphere.


True, <"cyanobacteria are universal on Earth"> and are the first organisms <"known from the fossil record">.





Witcher said:


> Exactly that, source of the problem won't be removed and algae will very likely come back as plants will be weakened.





Ray said:


> reset button on a computer - restores a stable known state in favour of the plants. This does have to be combined with root cause removal



I'm not a fan of <"magic bullets" either">, but in this case I'd try @Ray's suggestion of an extensive syphon followed by a three day black-out. 





Witcher said:


> all you need is the flow, oxygen and healthy plants doing their job.


That would be pretty much my thoughts as well.

cheers Darrel


----------



## jaypeecee

dw1305 said:


> ...but in this case I'd try @Ray's suggestion of an extensive syphon followed by a three day black-out.



Hi Folks,

Use of a siphon on thick 'sheets' of cyano may result in blockages. I would suggest to the OP that the use of a bottle brush may be better. Dip it into the cyano and twirl the brush to 'reel it in'. Just a thought.

JPC


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @Ruskie 

How would you like to move forward on this? I don't want to waste time going back through my notes and emails if you've decided to move away from the _Blue Exit_ approach.

JPC


----------



## Ruskie

Witcher said:


> With all respect @Ruskie but you may seem to be very impatient.



Impatient- No, Inexperienced- Yes.

The questions I ask are due to the fact I have zero experience in the matter so I don’t actually know if the results I’m seeing are expected or not. 
You’ve got to bare in mind this my first ever tank and only just over a month old at that. This hobby may come naturally to some people, clearly it doesn’t for me.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





jaypeecee said:


> Use of a siphon on thick 'sheets' of cyano may result in blockages. I would suggest to the OP that the use of a bottle brush may be better. Dip it into the cyano and twirl the brush to 'reel it in'.


I know what you mean, but I would definitely go for syphoning. I think that the twirl method works well for filamentous green algae, but in this case I'm worried that it is just going to fragment the BGA into a million pieces.

I'd use a reasonably long run ~90 cm of 12/16 tubing, or similar, and have the water flowing fairly quickly. I've always used a mouth syphon to start the flow going. I've never got on with the squeezy bulb ones. 





Ruskie said:


> This hobby may come naturally to some people, clearly it doesn’t for me.


No you are good, I don't think it comes easy to any of us. When I started keeping aquariums there wasn't really much information, so you had to <"learn by your mistakes">.  It is different now, there is a huge amount of information, much of it conflicting.

Personally I've got a <"fairly jaundiced view ">of the suppliers of <"many of the sellers of aquarium products">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## castle

I get an ever reducing sheet of BGA if I don't syphon twice a week. I put my arm in the tank and wriggle my fingers all over the place - this dislodges the BGA and then I syphon it away. Works well, just have to keep it up.


----------



## Ruskie

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Ruskie
> 
> How would you like to move forward on this? I don't want to waste time going back through my notes and emails if you've decided to move away from the _Blue Exit_ approach.
> 
> JPC



At the minute I’m not giving up on the Blue Exit approach altogether just veering away from ‘their’ suggested approach.
Personally I feel that leaving the tank sat as is for another 10 or so days is not going to be doing me any good at all. Maybe I’m wrong.

I’ll tell you what my gut feeling is at the minute.

•Remove as much of the Cyano as I can.
This is probably going to involve cutting away a good chunk of the mosses as this seems the worse affected.
Clean as much as I can from the wood/rock. Trim the worst affected leaves.
Syphon the carpeting plants (will probably end up uprooting them)

•Do a big water change and general clean up.
Clean the glass, remove any debris, clean the pre filter.

•Double dose Blue Exit

• Blackout for 3 days.

•Pray 

Thoughts people?


----------



## jaypeecee

dw1305 said:


> I know what you mean, but I would definitely go for syphoning. I think that the twirl method works well for filamentous green algae, but in this case I'm worried that it is just going to fragment the BGA into a million pieces.



Hi @dw1305 

Don't forget that this cyano is likely to be Oscillatoria species, which is a filamentous cyanobacteria. My previous experience, if the OP has this same species, is that it peels away from some surfaces _very_ easily. It's like removing thick cellophane. It is comprised of multiple sheets lying on top of each other and bonded together by something secreted by the cyano itself. If it's the same stuff as that which I once had a few years ago, the OP should be able to remove it all in less than 30 minutes. Apart from the little bits that just don't come away. That's where the _Blue Exit _comes in. And, finally, the belt-and-braces bit but only if it's necessary, a UV-C sterilizer to suck in and kill the cyano once and for all. That's what I did and detailed in my other cyano thread. And it worked. For anyone in doubt, please look at the photos I attached. Here's the link:

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/cyanobacteria-identification-at-last.60496/

JPC


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Ruskie said:


> This is probably going to involve cutting away a good chunk of the mosses as this seems the worse affected.


I think it should syphon of in a sheet as @jaypeecee suggests. I'd definitely go for twirling/syphoning before I resorted to too much in the way of surgery.

The problem with chopping out bits of effected plant is that cyanobacteria are often really quicker growers, and can grow much more quickly than your plants can.

cheers Darrel


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @Ruskie,

Comments below and please read post #109.


1 





Ruskie said:


> At the minute I’m not giving up on the Blue Exit approach altogether just veering away from ‘their’ suggested approach.



Agreed, no problem.


2 





Ruskie said:


> Syphon the carpeting plants (will probably end up uprooting them)



Agreed.


3 





Ruskie said:


> Remove as much of the Cyano as I can. This is probably going to involve cutting away a good chunk of the mosses as this seems the worse affected. Clean as much as I can from the wood/rock. Trim the worst affected leaves.



Agreed. Please read post #109.


4 





Ruskie said:


> Do a big water change and general clean up. Clean the glass, remove any debris, clean the pre filter.



Agreed.


5 





Ruskie said:


> Double dose Blue Exit



I think we can increase the dosage to a much higher level. To be confirmed.


6 





Ruskie said:


> Blackout for 3 days.



No harm in doing this.

JPC


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @Ruskie 

Further to the above, please confirm what inhabitants, if any, you have in your tank, as this may have some bearing on the safe dose for _Blue Exit_.

JPC


----------



## Ruskie

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, I think it should syphon of in a sheet as @jaypeecee suggests. I'd definitely go for twirling/syphoning before I resorted to too much in the way of surgery.
> 
> The problem with chopping out bits of effected plant is that cyanobacteria are often really quicker growers, and can grow much more quickly than your plants can.
> 
> cheers Darrel




Ok, cheers Darrel. 
I actually just tried twirling a skewer about in a section of the moss and although it doesn’t come off in sheets as such it does come away quite easily. I don’t want to disturb it too much with out syphoning though as it does seem to break up as you suggested.
For what it’s worth the moss underneath still looks surprisingly healthy.




jaypeecee said:


> I think we can increase the dosage to a much higher level. To be confirmed.


If you could reference your notes that would be great 

Edit: @jaypeecee You posted as I was typing. I have 5x RCS in the tank, nothing else


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @Ruskie 

OK, I have some more info. The standard dose for _Blue Exit_, as you will know, is 10 ml per 80 litres. This is equivalent to 0.125 ml per litre. The effectiveness and toxicity to fish of _Blue Exit _(and _AlgExit_*) was the subject of the following paper:

https://mnet.mendelu.cz/mendelnet2013/articles/43_postulkova_817.pdf

There's little chance of fish suffering with elevated dosages of _Blue Exit_ because "BLUE EXIT moves beyond the range of a hundredfold concentration, because no fish died".  Regarding other tank inhabitants, this is what Easy-Life have to say on their web site:

"Blue Exit is easy and safe to use and is harmless to fish, shrimps, molluscs and plants. If there is a serious infestation, the Blue Exit treatment can be prolonged for a few days, even with a double dose".

Returning to the effectiveness of _Blue Exit_, the paper above concludes that "Percentage cell inhibition of Anabaena sp. in 96 hours with ALGEXIT in concentration 0.1ml.l-1 was 43.53% and with BLUE EXIT in concentration 0.125 ml.l-1 was 90.64%". Note that this was using the Anabena species of cyanobacteria, not Oscillatoria, which is what I had in the latest tank on which I reported.

So, to summarize, you can definitely increase the dosage amount. How would you feel about doubling the dose tomorrow (Tuesday), then tripling the dose on Wednesday and, finally, quadrupling the dose on Thursday. Then, we'll review the situation.

* Ignore _AlgExit_

JPC


----------



## Ruskie

@jaypeecee 

Many thanks for that it’s both informative and reassuring 

On the back of that I’m happy to try the increased doses you’ve suggested.

I think I will follow the plan I laid out in post #108 minus the blackout and using the daily increased dosages and see where we stand.

I can always try the blackout at a later date if we still feel it’s needed. I must admit I do wonder if the lack of ferts due to the treatment and then introducing a blackout would be the final nail in the coffin for my plants.


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @Ruskie,

I spotted this a couple of days ago and I thought it was of interest for two reasons:

https://www.aquasabi.com/Willow-Bark-10-g

 - Shrimps like to nibble on it
 - Contains i.a. salicylic acid

As you have RCS in your tank, it adds support to the fact that your RCS should be safe. As I understand it, salicylic acid was first extracted from the Willow tree. In fact, the word 'salicylic' is derived from the Latin, salix = willow tree.

Today should have been the quadruple dose, if I remember rightly. Looking forward to getting an update. I can't help but feel that Easy-Life were being ultra cautious with the recommended dose of _Blue Exit_.

JPC


----------



## Ruskie

Thanks @jaypeecee I'll have a look into that.

Right, an update.

Your correct, yesterday should have been the quadruple dose but I’m a little behind and plans have changed slightly again.

Tuesday was a big clean up and I removed a fair amount of the Cyano. The problem I had is that currently I don’t have a simultaneous water in/out system while doing a water change. In effect that meant I ‘ran out of time’ whilst cleaning as I’d removed about 75% of the water. I did a double dose this day once I had refilled.

Wednesday I did the same again. Cleaning more out while doing another change. I dosed slightly more than double this day.

Yesterday. No water change and a triple dose.

As it stands the tank looks a hell of a lot better but I can still see traces of the Cyano in places around the tank and clinging onto some plants so feel like I should do at least another clean up. What I don’t see is any new patches appearing but it is very early days.

That leads us onto today where I think I’m gonna change the plan slightly. 

My new inflow/outflow pipes turned up out of the blue today (thanks China post). The new lily outflow should give me better flow and surface movement than the spin one I have currently and the inflow (with skimmer) is going to sit much deeper in the tank than my old one. Hopefully that will also give me more movement at substrate level to help with the Cyano that clings to my carpet plants - Yes, I uprooted several trying to syphon it off 

So current modified plan:
•Have another clean.
•Fit new pipes.
•Start the double/triple/quadruple dose again over the coming days.

Let’s see what happens.

What are people’s thoughts on maybe starting to add ferts again? Plants are starting to look a little worse for wear and I think they are suffering from the reduced photo period / lack of fert combo.


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @Ruskie


Ruskie said:


> What are people’s thoughts on maybe starting to add ferts again? Plants are starting to look a little worse for wear and I think they are suffering from the reduced photo period / lack of fert combo



Thanks for the update. You've certainly been busy!

I think it's worth gradually adding some ferts again. It's a bit of a guess as to which way things will move as a result. Your plants may need ferts but any cyano may also take advantage of these. This is where I would resort to measuring nutrients in the water column - nitrate, phosphate, potassium, magnesium and iron. That way you could target any specific nutrient deficiencies. Otherwise, you could try an all-rounder such as _TNC Complete_. Please remind me if you are adding liquid carbon as I don't think you're injecting CO2. Carbon may not be a problem as your plants will be leaking carbon into the water. They do this when healthy but even more so if they are suffering.

JPC


----------



## jaypeecee

Ruskie said:


> As it stands the tank looks a hell of a lot better but I can still see traces of the Cyano in places around the tank and clinging onto some plants so feel like I should do at least another clean up. What I don’t see is any new patches appearing but it is very early days.



Good news!

JPC


----------



## Ruskie

@jaypeecee 

No CO2 or liquid carbon. I only have Tropica Specialised nutrition.


----------



## Ray

Ruskie said:


> @jaypeecee
> 
> No CO2 or liquid carbon. I only have Tropica Specialised nutrition.


I think you have to dose so your plants don't get unwell or other problems will come.  I'd dose after lights off so the plants have overnight to wick it up before the algae gets a look in.  Back in the day there was a school of thought that mega dosing nitrates would hammer BGA. I'm not sure where that stands these days?

So you could either double dose on that philosophy or micro dose on the basis the plants will take it all in overnight and there will be nothing for the BGA by morning...


----------



## Nick72

Ray said:


> I think you have to dose so your plants don't get unwell or other problems will come.  I'd dose after lights off so the plants have overnight to wick it up before the algae gets a look in.  Back in the day there was a school of thought that mega dosing nitrates would hammer BGA. I'm not sure where that stands these days?
> 
> So you could either double dose on that philosophy or micro dose on the basis the plants will take it all in overnight and there will be nothing for the BGA by morning...



Hi Ray,  do plants absorb nutrients in the dark or only when photsynthesising?  I've no idea.


----------



## Ray

Nick72 said:


> Hi Ray, do plants absorb nutrients in the dark or only when photsynthesising? I've no idea.



The pathways for nutrient absorption are not the same as those used for photosynthesis. Plants respire 24/7, they grow overnight, a wilted plant watered in the evening will perk up overnight - so my understanding is yes they can do that using stored ATP manufactured during the last light cycle. Sort of like a factory taking component deliveries overnight ready for when the assembly line starts again the next day.


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @Ruskie

This is not a clear-cut situation but that's the nature of our hobby. I think you should try a dose of Tropica Specialised Nutrition and monitor the situation closely.

JPC


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @Ruskie 

It's a long time since I used _Tropica Specialised Nutrition_ and I seem to remember that it may contain ammonium and urea. If so and if you still have RCS in your tank, it would be wise to keep an eye on ammonia/ammonium and nitrite.

JPC


----------



## Ruskie

For those of you still following this nightmare, an update.

On Friday I cleaned up the Cyano again the best I could and fitted the new pipes. Flow is definitely increased as the poor stems on the opposite side of the tank are taking a fair old pummelling. I added 1 squirt of ferts as the plants looked in need and I double dosed Blue Exit.
Saturday and Sunday I upped the dosage to triple and then quadruple. Yesterday was also a quadruple dose.

Unfortunately the Cyano is still coming back . Whether this is the result of adding ferts again or or not I don’t know. A couple of pics attached.

The 1st one shows the new Cyano on the L Sessiliflora - This was all removed on Friday so has come back pretty quickly.






The 2nd is Cyano returning on the moss in the middle of the tank. This moss, with the new pipework, is in the direct firing line of the outflow pipe. You can see on the stems to the left that the Cyano is starting to break up somewhat and has become more stringy.





The 3rd is taken from the same spot as an earlier photo where it was becoming quite clumpy. It’s not quite as bad but obviously there is still a fair bit. The S Repens behind are definitely looking worse for wear compared to the earlier picture.





Did the addition of  1 squirt of ferts help or hinder? I don’t know, hard to say I guess.

I’ve done another clean today and double dosed BE again. Let’s see where we are in a few days.


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @Ruskie 


Ruskie said:


> For those of you still following this nightmare, an update.



What's the latest? Any progress?

JPC


----------



## Ruskie

Hi @jaypeecee 

An update, as requested 

I believe steady progress is being made 
Light is off at the moment so no pictures, I can add some later maybe.

If you recall on the last update I did a big clean and double dosed BE. I dosed BE a couple more times after that before the bottle ran out.  Within 48 hours the Cyano was coming back quicker again. I feel that the Blue Exit was slowing the growth of the Cyano some what but not actually stopping it outright or eradicating it.

As luck would have it the Ultralife blue green slime stain remover I ordered (Amazon, it shipped from the US) turned up the day after the BE ran out - Fate??

So last Sunday was another clean and the first dose of Ultralife followed by another dose on Tuesday (as per manufacturers instructions) I’ve kept a close eye on the tank this week, being furloughed has its upsides I guess,  and so far I believe progress has been made -
No new areas of Cyano, any covering the wood has subsided and it is slowly disappearing from the plants. 
There is still some visible on the tips of the carpeting plants (the hardest to clean without uprooting) but in places that looks like it is slowly starting to die and fall off - My shrimps have also visibly been more active doing their thing which I can only assume is a good thing! One has took to chilling in a section of the moss, they never went near it before!

So, early days but it looks positive. I’m going to be patient but the Ultralife has given me some confidence that it will work and hopefully I can start giving the plants a bit more attention soon. 
I have some new growth which looks healthy so with a little time I plan on trimming and replanting this healthier growth to replace the older somewhat damaged plants.

Patient baby steps.


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @Ruskie

It's good to get your feedback about the _Ultralife BGSSR_. It does appear to be effective. But, I have run shy of using it as I don't like adding undisclosed substances to my tanks. There is also a possibility that it is a chemical that is available at a fraction of the price charged by _Ultralife_. So, please keep us posted. I'm very keen to see how things develop. It's a shame that the _Blue Exit_ failed you. My hunch is that Easy-Life's recommended dosage of _Blue Exit_ is over-conservative.

JPC


----------



## oscar

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Ruskie
> 
> It's good to get your feedback about the _Ultralife BGSSR_. It does appear to be effective. But, I have run shy of using it as I don't like adding undisclosed substances to my tanks. There is also a possibility that it is a chemical that is available at a fraction of the price charged by _Ultralife_. So, please keep us posted. I'm very keen to see how things develop. It's a shame that the _Blue Exit_ failed you. My hunch is that Easy-Life's recommended dosage of _Blue Exit_ is over-conservative.
> 
> JPC





Ruskie said:


> Hi @jaypeecee
> 
> An update, as requested
> 
> I believe steady progress is being made
> Light is off at the moment so no pictures, I can add some later maybe.
> 
> If you recall on the last update I did a big clean and double dosed BE. I dosed BE a couple more times after that before the bottle ran out.  Within 48 hours the Cyano was coming back quicker again. I feel that the Blue Exit was slowing the growth of the Cyano some what but not actually stopping it outright or eradicating it.
> 
> As luck would have it the Ultralife blue green slime stain remover I ordered (Amazon, it shipped from the US) turned up the day after the BE ran out - Fate??
> 
> So last Sunday was another clean and the first dose of Ultralife followed by another dose on Tuesday (as per manufacturers instructions) I’ve kept a close eye on the tank this week, being furloughed has its upsides I guess,  and so far I believe progress has been made -
> No new areas of Cyano, any covering the wood has subsided and it is slowly disappearing from the plants.
> There is still some visible on the tips of the carpeting plants (the hardest to clean without uprooting) but in places that looks like it is slowly starting to die and fall off - My shrimps have also visibly been more active doing their thing which I can only assume is a good thing! One has took to chilling in a section of the moss, they never went near it before!
> 
> So, early days but it looks positive. I’m going to be patient but the Ultralife has given me some confidence that it will work and hopefully I can start giving the plants a bit more attention soon.
> I have some new growth which looks healthy so with a little time I plan on trimming and replanting this healthier growth to replace the older somewhat damaged plants.
> 
> Patient baby steps.


That’s good news I also have had issues, i have a thread under journals ‘ aquascaper 600”  goes into detail.
All the best, fingers crossed for you


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## Nick72

oscar said:


> That’s good news I also have had issues, i have a thread under journals ‘ aquascaper 600”  goes into detail.....




(Starting on post #109 if you want to skip straight to the BGA)


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## Ray

Ruskie said:


> So I’ve finally (hopefully) gotten over the BGA disaster in my tank and I feel now is the time to start thinking about adding some more livestock in. Exciting.


Based on this comment in another thread it looks like the Ultralife BGSSR did the job?  @Ruskie - please can you confirm that's the case?


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## Ruskie

Ray said:


> Based on this comment in another thread it looks like the Ultralife BGSSR did the job?  @Ruskie - please can you confirm that's the case?



Hi @Ray

Yep, Ultralife BGSSR  did the trick for me.

As I stated in post #128 I believe Blue Exit was slowing the growth of the Cyano somewhat but not actually eradicating it but I did have a pretty bad case!
Ultralife BGSSR seemed to go that step further and the improvement was pretty rapid.

As my case was pretty bad most of my plants were pretty badly affected and I’ve had to remove some as they were beyond saving and replant with new. The carpeting plants being the main ones as they were so hard to clean properly without uprooting.
The ones that could be salvaged have had the new growth cut and replanted and are starting to show signs of recovery. Hopefully things will grow back in fully in time.

Now, one thing I will state is that the Cyano is not completely gone. I still get traces appearing on the glass which are easily removed when cleaning and there is a section of the wood that occasionally shows a little but these are the only places I see it but it doesn’t spread and it is way more manageable than before. I keep a close eye on it but it maybe something I just have to live with!

Just for completeness I’ve attached a couple of photos of the tank at it’s worse and the tank as it is now


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## jaypeecee

Hi @Ruskie


Ruskie said:


> As I stated in post #128 I believe Blue Exit was slowing the growth of the Cyano somewhat but not actually eradicating it but I did have a pretty bad case!



And, I think you've hit the nail on the head there. Serious infestations of Cyano possibly call for something stronger than _Blue Exit_. I am in no doubt that _Blue Exit_ is worth using before Cyano really gets out of control. And it annoys me a little that Easy-Life, the manufacturer of _Blue Exit_, recommends such a cautious dose. I think I presented research that had been carried out on _Blue Exit_ demonstrating that it didn't kill any fish at up to 100X the recommended dose! I can always check that I've got my facts right here if anyone wants me to do so.


Ruskie said:


> Now, one thing I will state is that the Cyano is not completely gone. I still get traces appearing on the glass which are easily removed when cleaning and there is a section of the wood that occasionally shows a little but these are the only places I see it but it doesn’t spread and it is way more manageable than before. I keep a close eye on it but it maybe something I just have to live with!



This is interesting. I have read other people saying that BGSSR isn't 100% effective. But, it obviously gets very close to this figure. I am still doing experiments to see what else we might consider. I am unhappy about using BGSSR if it contains antibiotics. I think Ultralife's blurb says it does not contain erythromycin sulphate (going by memory) - but that's just one antibiotic from many.

BTW, congratulations on your 'new' tank - what an improvement! Well done!

JPC


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## Witcher

jaypeecee said:


> call for something stronger than _Blue Exit_


Oxygen?


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## jaypeecee

Hi @Witcher


Witcher said:


> Oxygen?



But, of course!

JPC


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