# GreggZ Planted Rainbow Tank!



## GreggZ (7 Mar 2022)

I’ve been in the planted tank and Rainbowfish hobby for quite some time now. I was invited to come over and check out this forum, and have spent the past couple of days exploring the site.

It seems like a very good group of dedicated hobbyists who hang out here. A few people I recognize and there may be more here I have been in contact with over the years.

I wanted to take a moment to introduce myself. Some of you may know me from my long running journal on Plantedtank.net, which had 200 pages and 4K posts. If you do then you might also know that due to a disagreement with a moderator there that relationship has ended. I am also a moderator on the CO2 Supplemented Planted Tanks group on FB. Many of the best in the hobby hang out there.

Like I said I have been reading a lot of posts here and it’s always interesting to learn how others approach the hobby. If you would like to know more about my experience here is a link to an interview I did a while back sharing my thoughts on how I manage my tank.

Meet Gregg Zydeck – Dutch Inspired good guy – ScapeCrunch

My Rainbow tank was also selected to be included in the current edition of Aquarium Hobbyist Magazine. I am in discussions to provide further content for them regarding planted aquariums.






So if you see me hanging around here and making comments just be easy on me. I am the new kid on the block around here. I am most interested in learning more about how folks here manage their tanks.

Just for fun here’s an image someone made of my tank recently. Gotta love goofy gadgetry.


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## sparkyweasel (7 Mar 2022)

Welcome!


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## GHNelson (7 Mar 2022)

Hi Gregg
Welcome to the UKaps!
Nice introduction


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## MichaelJ (7 Mar 2022)

Welcome to UKAPS!


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## John q (7 Mar 2022)

Welcome aboard Gregg.


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## Hufsa (7 Mar 2022)

Welcome! 😃 We are glad to have you


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## Hanuman (8 Mar 2022)

Let the games begin. Welcome Gregg.


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## GreggZ (8 Mar 2022)

Hanuman said:


> Let the games begin. Welcome Gregg.


LOL thanks my friend!!!


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## Karmicnull (8 Mar 2022)

Welcome to our little corner of the net!


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## Ria95 (8 Mar 2022)

This will be a journal to watch! Welcome from me as well.


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## X3NiTH (8 Mar 2022)

Welcome!


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## heliophyte (8 Mar 2022)

Welcome! I love rainbowfish!


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## Geoffrey Rea (9 Mar 2022)

Welcome to UKAPS @GreggZ


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## JacksonL (10 Mar 2022)

I love that ScapeCrunch article. The multitude of tips at the end are great and I have copied and pasted them into my aquarium notes for future reference.
It also goes without saying that your tank is a real standout, the fish and plant health are amazing.


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## GreggZ (10 Mar 2022)

JacksonL said:


> I love that ScapeCrunch article. The multitude of tips at the end are great and I have copied and pasted them into my aquarium notes for future reference.
> It also goes without saying that your tank is a real standout, the fish and plant health are amazing.


Thanks for the kind words and warm welcome from you and those above. It's much appreciated.


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## ElleDee (12 Mar 2022)

Hi, Gregg! I'm apparently too new to send you a PM on this site, but I'll say this much here - what went down at TPT was unsettling; deleting your journal was such a low blow. Are you going to start a new one here?


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## medlight (12 Mar 2022)

Welcome Greggz


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## Hanuman (12 Mar 2022)

ElleDee said:


> deleting your journal was such a low blow.


Pretty much the works and psychology of a 12 years old prepubescent brat.


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## GreggZ (12 Mar 2022)

ElleDee said:


> Hi, Gregg! I'm apparently too new to send you a PM on this site, but I'll say this much here - what went down at TPT was unsettling; deleting your journal was such a low blow. Are you going to start a new one here?


Hello @ElleDee. The good thing is I downloaded my entire journal as soon as the commotion started, so I have a copy for posterity. 

I've analyzed everything I did and said and I wouldn't change a thing. I was giving sound advice to someone who was requesting it. And it revolved around a topic that should not be controversial at all. Somehow that moderator is now the arbitrator of truth and is censoring views he doesn't agree with. Sad for that site and the planted tank community.


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## ElleDee (12 Mar 2022)

GreggZ said:


> I've analyzed everything I did and said and I wouldn't change a thing. I was giving sound advice to someone who was requesting it. And it revolved around a topic that should not be controversial at all.


Yeah, the whole thing was very illogical, and, for everyone else, incredibly opaque. I'm fine with strict moderation and every community has its own standards, but if I'm going to participate I need to be able to understand what those are. If that's too much to ask for, then I guess I need to hang out somewhere else. (Hello, UKAPS!)

It definitely made me reconsider the piles of banned users over there, many with thousands of posts...  Oh well! Onward and upward and all that.


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## swyftfeet (12 Mar 2022)

Welcome GreggZ!   Im so sad I never made it all the way through that post.


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## Hanuman (12 Mar 2022)

206 pages worth of 24 karat gold deleted by some brainless punk.


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## GreggZ (14 Mar 2022)

Hanuman said:


> 206 pages worth of 24 karat gold deleted by some brainless punk.


I appreciate the support my friend. Sad thing is there were so many contributions from so many people in that thread that are now lost. Besides my usual drivel there were loads of nuggets that came from dozens and dozens of people who are actively involved in the hobby. It was a good run!


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## ceg4048 (14 Mar 2022)

Welcome Gregg. Reading through your interview was a pleasure. Nice plants as well.
Here is a spy photo taken of you during your discussion with the moderators at plantedtank.net






Cheers,


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## LondonDragon (14 Mar 2022)

Greggz took the red pill and is now liberated!!


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## GreggZ (14 Mar 2022)

ceg4048 said:


> Welcome Gregg. Reading through your interview was a pleasure. Nice plants as well.
> Here is a spy photo taken of you during your discussion with the moderators at plantedtank.net
> 
> View attachment 184484
> ...





LondonDragon said:


> Greggz took the red pill and is now liberated!!


Thanks for the LOL moments. I did a spit take when I read both of them. 

I have to say everyone here has been very welcoming and it's much appreciated.


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## Hanuman (15 Mar 2022)

GreggZ said:


> I appreciate the support my friend. Sad thing is there were so many contributions from so many people in that thread that are now lost. Besides my usual drivel there were loads of nuggets that came from dozens and dozens of people who are actively involved in the hobby. It was a good run!


Banning/suspending a member is one thing but deleting a long running thread of thousands of posts just because some ego got bruised shows some serious brain disfunction. They are actually depriving members from quality content so technically loosing views and possibly members. I am pretty sure the mods/admin there strongly believe they are punishing you when it's just the opposite. 😂


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## JacksonL (15 Mar 2022)

Is there a way for someone to view the archived thread?


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## GreggZ (15 Mar 2022)

JacksonL said:


> Is there a way for someone to view the archived thread?


That is a very good question. I have the entire thread saved. Not sure on the legalities of posting it elsewhere. Just haven't got that far yet.


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## GreggZ (24 Mar 2022)

I really need to start a journal. But in the meantime will post something interesting here.

Due to an equipment failure I have had no CO2 for 5 days. Part was supposed to arrive today but now is delayed. Likely another 5 days before I have CO2 again. Turned down lights to 50-60 PAR and everything else business as usual. Interesting thing is that all in all tank is holding up pretty good. We'll see what happens as more time goes by.


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## Gorillastomp (24 Mar 2022)

Hi @GreggZ , 

like i have already said to you on TPT you have an amazing colorful tank! Its not the first time i hear about controversial banning on TPT, sadly a big knowledge stuff gone for them.

What kind of Light/bulb are you using to achieve this purpleish hue ?


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## Hanuman (24 Mar 2022)

Gorillastomp said:


> What kind of Light/bulb are you using to achieve this purpleish hue ?


I'll answer that question as I was recently looking at his excel file.


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## GreggZ (24 Mar 2022)

Hanuman said:


> I'll answer that question as I was recently looking at his excel file.
> View attachment 184985


LOL thanks for the help! In the pic above the Tropics were not turned on so a bit more red/blue. Mostly running just the Powerveg 660's and Super Purples keeping the PAR low while I wait it out.


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## GreggZ (24 Mar 2022)

Here's the full parameters spreadsheet if anyone is interested.


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## JacksonL (24 Mar 2022)

8ppm PO4 per week, wow. That seems extremely high, what is the thinking behind that?


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## Hanuman (24 Mar 2022)

JacksonL said:


> 8ppm PO4 per week, wow. That seems extremely high, what is the thinking behind that?


That's what most people dosing EI level (~4ppm) and doing 50% WC have. The problem is that people seem to forget there is accumulation. That 8ppm is the peak after several week. So instead of dosing daily, he front loads and targets peak levels. Have a read < here >.


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## GreggZ (24 Mar 2022)

JacksonL said:


> 8ppm PO4 per week, wow. That seems extremely high, what is the thinking behind that?


Like @Hanuman said above, that is the target I dose new incoming water to. It would be the same as saying I'm dosing 4 ppm PO4 with 50% water changes. I know some people believe PO4 is the devil and causes algae, but in my opinion plants love it. Here's the tank when I was targeting 10 ppm PO4.


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## Hanuman (24 Mar 2022)

That tank is fake filled with epoxy resin so everything is held in time. Video or it didn't happen. 😂


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## GreggZ (24 Mar 2022)

Hanuman said:


> That tank is fake filled with epoxy resin so everything is held in time. Video or it didn't happen. 😂


LOL ask and you shall receive!

GreggZ Rainbow Tank Video


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## JacksonL (24 Mar 2022)

Hanuman said:


> That's what most people dosing EI level (~4ppm) and doing 50% WC have. The problem is that people seem to forget there is accumulation. That 8ppm is the peak after several week. So instead of dosing daily, he front loads and targets peak levels. Have a read < here >.





GreggZ said:


> Like @Hanuman said above, that is the target I dose new incoming water to. It would be the same as saying I'm dosing 4 ppm PO4 with 50% water changes. I know some people believe PO4 is the devil and causes algae, but in my opinion plants love it. Here's the tank when I was targeting 10 ppm PO4.View attachment 185009


That makes sense, I hadn’t thought about accumulation.


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## GreggZ (24 Mar 2022)

Planted tank people are the best! A friend of mine in the hobby sent me this yesterday...........


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## Hanuman (24 Mar 2022)

Back to square 1. Rough edges.


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## Unexpected (28 Mar 2022)

Hanuman said:


> 206 pages worth of 24 karat gold deleted by some brainless punk.


Completely insane wasn't it!

Welcome GreggZ! Good things to come...


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## GreggZ (28 Mar 2022)

Unexpected said:


> Completely insane wasn't it!
> 
> Welcome GreggZ! Good things to come...


Thanks my friend and good to see you here.

I think I need to contact the admins and see I can just move this to the journal section as I have some interesting things that have been going on lately.


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## Unexpected (28 Mar 2022)

Oh, I just noticed; you raised GH again! I'm wondering if you have found a "sweet spot" yet, or a ratio/dGH that stands out as "best range"?


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## GreggZ (29 Mar 2022)

Unexpected said:


> Oh, I just noticed; you raised GH again! I'm wondering if you have found a "sweet spot" yet, or a ratio/dGH that stands out as "best range"?


I am always amazed at what people notice. I did raise dGH a bit. Not trying to fix anything. I was thinking of adding some species that are known to prefer a bit more dGH. But before I do that, I like to change the parameter for about a month and observe. So far no real difference between 4 and 6 and didn't expect there to be. If that keeps going smoothly then it's on to about 8 dGH for a while.

In general I have found a range of Ca:Mg at 3:1 to 2:1 works well. I put it in the category of you want to have enough but not too much. 

But that isn't what has been interesting. It has do with my 10 days without CO2. Tank did far better than expected and it has me intrigued. Going to do some of my usual testing of the limits coming up. More to follow.


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## Hanuman (29 Mar 2022)

GreggZ said:


> But that isn't what has been interesting. It has do with my 10 days without CO2. Tank did far better than expected and it has me intrigued. Going to do some of my usual testing of the limits coming up. More to follow.


For you to start seeing changes you would probably need to wait fairly longer. I guess plants are currently tapping on reserves and readjusting and since they are probably well established the don't show signs of problems early on.

Keep us posted on how that experiment goes.


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## GreggZ (29 Mar 2022)

Hanuman said:


> For you to start seeing changes you would probably need to wait fairly longer. I guess plants are currently tapping on reserves and readjusting and since they are probably well established the don't show signs of problems early on.
> 
> Keep us posted on how that experiment goes.


Yep agreed. They were well fed and established before the CO2 went out. And I am not going to be going with low or no CO2. It's more about light. When the CO2 went down I lowered the light quite a bit and plants did surprisingly well. And all in all kept pretty good color except for Pantanal. 

As you may know I've been testing the limits of the upper end of lighting for quite a while running 200+ PAR. Now I am going to test the lower end of the lighting spectrum and see how little I can get away with and still have good color. Why? Heck I don't know I'd just like to know happens. 

Also have some observations about tracking pH at regular intervals with no CO2 injection. Quite interesting just need to put my thoughts together.


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## Hanuman (29 Mar 2022)

GreggZ said:


> It's more about light. When the CO2 went down I lowered the light quite a bit and plants did surprisingly well.


I was actually wondering exactly that. Makes even more sense now why your plants are doing well.



GreggZ said:


> And all in all kept pretty good color except for Pantanal.


Yeah that one is really the moody one of the class. Any slight changes she immediately starts whining and spitting her venom. She will most certainly come back to glory but will whine again temporarily if you dare increase light and CO2 in one go. This shows you how some plants can be very sensitive to environmental changes.


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## SpicyCrawdad (29 Mar 2022)

GreggZ said:


> That is a very good question. I have the entire thread saved. Not sure on the legalities of posting it elsewhere. Just haven't got that far yet.


Hey dude. Sorry to hear what happened. I'm not sure what the story is, but I'd be willing to bet I fell victim to something similar by the same moderator. I traverse many of the aquatic sites, including this one. I've learned so much from users like yourself as well as ceg here.  I'll DM you how to access the cached version of the page.

Glad this was not enough to deter you from interacting with the community. That would have been a great loss.

Edit: Actually I may be too new to DM. I do not mean to break any rules so please delete this if it is. I am _certainly_ not looking to promote another site.

https://webcache.googleusercontent....1.1020497/page-197+&cd=16&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Just change the page number in the URL. You can view them that way.


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## GreggZ (29 Mar 2022)

SpicyCrawdad said:


> Hey dude. Sorry to hear what happened. I'm not sure what the story is, but I'd be willing to bet I fell victim to something similar by the same moderator. I traverse many of the aquatic sites, including this one. I've learned so much from users like yourself as well as ceg here.  I'll DM you how to access the cached version of the page.
> 
> Glad this was not enough to deter you from interacting with the community. That would have been a great loss.
> 
> ...


First of all thanks for the kind words. It's been interesting as I have been contacted by a bunch of people were following my journal. When you're writing it you never really know who is paying attention other than the regulars.

The basic thing going on there is that if you disagree with the advice of a moderator that's grounds for a suspension. I wouldn't have it and that was that. 

And thanks so much this link looks like it should be very useful. The only thing is that I change the page number in the URL but the same page keeps showing up. 

Do I know you from TPT? I've met a few now that I had conversations with over there and have different usernames here.


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## SpicyCrawdad (29 Mar 2022)

GreggZ said:


> First of all thanks for the kind words. It's been interesting as I have been contacted by a bunch of people were following my journal. When you're writing it you never really know who is paying attention other than the regulars.
> 
> The basic thing going on there is that if you disagree with the advice of a moderator that's grounds for a suspension. I wouldn't have it and that was that.
> 
> ...



Nope. Just another enthusiast you've motivated. Yeah, I see what you mean. Google has to have cached the page. This - Internet Archive: Wayback Machine might also be of use. I'm mostly a lurker just checkin out what people are doing and trying to find my own success.


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## GreggZ (29 Mar 2022)

SpicyCrawdad said:


> Nope. Just another enthusiast you've motivated.


I can't tell you how much that means to me and glad to hear my years of drivel helped in some way. 

I'll fool around with the wayback machine and see what I can come up with. I do have the entire thread saved but it wouldn't be easy to share.


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## Hufsa (29 Mar 2022)

Your thread and a couple of associated threads were the only reason I visited TPT @GreggZ 😊 
I think you would be surprised how many people were following from "the shadows" without posting


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## GreggZ (29 Mar 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Your thread and a couple of associated threads were the only reason I visited TPT @GreggZ 😊
> I think you would be surprised how many people were following from "the shadows" without posting


Thanks I appreciate that. Let me guess the associated threads were my friends Burr740 and Hendy8888? If so yep I follow them closely too!! Much to be learned from those two guys.


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## Unexpected (29 Mar 2022)

GreggZ said:


> Thanks I appreciate that. Let me guess the associated threads were my friends Burr740 and Hendy8888? If so yep I follow them closely too!! Much to be learned from those two guys.


Get them over here! 😁


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## GreggZ (29 Mar 2022)

Unexpected said:


> Get them over here! 😁


LOL I'll see what I can do! Hey did you notice you were popping into my thread in the archived page posted above?? Small planted tank world.


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## plantnoobdude (29 Mar 2022)

mmmm exciting times. try and drag over master plant keeper vin kutty aswell! Ukaps is making big boy moves


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## Hufsa (29 Mar 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> drag over master plant keeper vin kutty aswell! Ukaps is making big boy moves


Hoard all the big boys, preciouses, so preciouss


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## GreggZ (29 Mar 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> mmmm exciting times. try and drag over master plant keeper vin kutty aswell! Ukaps is making big boy moves


LOL yeah Vin and for that matter Tom Barr and Xiaozhuang don't post much in the forums anymore. That being said they are still active in the hobby and I am in contact with them on a regular basis. Maybe I can talk them into making a guest appearance in this new thread sometime!!!


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## Hanuman (29 Mar 2022)

Tom is already a member here but hasn’t posted in years.


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## GreggZ (30 Mar 2022)

Even if you have kept a planted tank for a LONG time, there is always something new to learn. To me that is one of the best parts of the hobby.

I mentioned earlier that I recently went for 10 days without CO2. The filter that drives my Cerges failed and it took longer than I expected to receive the part. And while I could have rigged something up in the meantime, I looked at it more like a learning experience.

The only change I made was to alter my lighting. My normal lighting is 200+ PAR of T5HO for 8 hours a day. I only ran a portion of the lights and removed some reflectors. I tested the light earlier today and it measured at 71 PAR.

I have to say I was startled at how well the tank did in general. Really didn’t look much different at all, the biggest difference being the slower growth rate. Now as mentioned above in another post the plants were well fed and in very good health so they had some reserves to draw on. But still it was intriguing how well they did.

With lower T5HO light the tank temp came down, averaging about 71 degrees most days. I also tracked the pH very closely as I was curious what it would do. My tank runs at very close to zero dKH with pure RO. Fully degassed reading right from the RO storage is 6.4. Fully degassed from the tank is 6.25. But here’s where it gets interesting. First thing in the morning the pH in the tank was consistently about 5.85. That’s a 0.4 pH drop overnight. It’s one of those things that makes you go hmmmmm??

So what does that mean? Heck I am not sure. One theory would be that cooler water holds more dissolved gas, and plants use O2 and expel CO2 at night. If anyone knows of Sudipta Shaw’s non CO2 tank the same kind of theory. Big part of the equation would be the cooler temp. Or could be a dozen other things affecting pH or bad readings or who knows what else. All I can say for sure is that the pH was about 5.85 at 7:00 in the morning and back to 6.25 at 7:00 at night. Every single day. If it’s from CO2 then that is a fairly significant amount that could have helped the plants stay a bit more stable.

So on to what’s next. Since the tank did so relatively well with the lower light, I am going to explore the lower light end of the spectrum a bit further. I hooked CO2 back up last night, but am going to leave the lights just as they are for a few weeks or a month. I want to see if I can find where the sweet spot is. A place where plants grow a bit less quickly, but still show very good color. I’ll update as I see how things go.


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## Hanuman (30 Mar 2022)

GreggZ said:


> So what does that mean? Heck I am not sure. One theory would be that cooler water holds more dissolved gas, and plants use O2 and expel CO2 at night. If anyone knows of Sudipta Shaw’s non CO2 tank the same kind of theory. Big part of the equation would be the cooler temp. Or could be a dozen other things affecting pH or bad readings or who knows what else. All I can say for sure is that the pH was about 5.85 at 7:00 in the morning and back to 6.25 at 7:00 at night. Every single day. If it’s from CO2 then that is a fairly significant amount that could have helped the plants stay a bit more stable.


I doubt it is bad readings if what you see is consistent every day. I think your assessment is correct about the temperature and plants/fish/bacteria releasing CO2. I would bet that the PH start slowly increasing shortly after lights go on.


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## GreggZ (30 Mar 2022)

Hanuman said:


> I doubt it is bad readings if what you see is consistent every day. I think your assessment is correct about the temperature and plants/fish/bacteria releasing CO2. I would bet that the PH start slowly increasing shorty after lights go on.


Yeah I am pretty meticulous about calibration and reading pH. And I agree those are likely the reasons. You would be correct pH did begin to rise when lights came on and did so slowly until it hit 6.25 later in the day. The first few days I thought oh something must be off but it happened the same way every day.

Yet you always have to leave room for other causes. 

Not many absolute truth's in this hobby.


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## SpicyCrawdad (30 Mar 2022)

How come you run your co2 on a third filter rather than say a dc pump? 

I originally ran a fluval 407 (55gallon ugh) with a reactor out to a spray bar but I flattened my circulation pretty badly. 

I now run an fx4 and just an in tank diffuser. Slowly growing tired of the insane amount of bubbles I have. I am just using the normal inlet outlet it comes with. The circulation with this combination is just about perfect though and I worry an additional pump to reactor to spray bar may be enough to turn my tank in to a washing machine.


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## GreggZ (30 Mar 2022)

SpicyCrawdad said:


> How come you run your co2 on a third filter rather than say a dc pump?
> 
> I originally ran a fluval 407 (55gallon ugh) with a reactor out to a spray bar but I flattened my circulation pretty badly.
> 
> I now run an fx4 and just an in tank diffuser. Slowly growing tired of the insane amount of bubbles I have. I am just using the normal inlet outlet it comes with. The circulation with this combination is just about perfect though and I worry an additional pump to reactor to spray bar may be enough to turn my tank in to a washing machine.


Your question actually brings up a couple of questions. What is the best way to inject and disperse CO2, and the more general question is what is good flow??

My tank is 120G (545L) and I run three filters. There are two Rena XP-L's with spraybar returns and one Rena XP-XL that drives my 20" Cerges reactor. With the Cerges there is never a bubble of CO2. I know some people will claim that having bubbles is somehow better for the plants, but personally I just don't like the soda pop bubble look. 

So next is what is good flow? I think flow is often misunderstood. People read you need good flow so they start adding all kinds of powerheads and pretty soon plants are waving around frantically trying to stay rooted. That is not good flow. In fact, it can create more problems than it solves. There are some plants that simply do not like high flow, and there are many algae that love high flow. The most common is BBA which will often show up right in the path of the strongest flow.

Years ago I had a large piece of driftwood in my tank. I could induce BBA into a spot just by aiming directly at it. It was very repeatable. 

In my experience good flow is a wide gentle laminar flow.......with a purpose. My spraybars are aimed up at about a 45* angle to the surface. The holes have been drilled out to make them larger, reducing velocity but not the amount of flow. Think of a garden hose. Put your thumb on the end of it and you have increase velocity, but you have not increased the flow rate. 

The water flows across the top towards the front of the tank creating good surface agitation (oxygen). Then it rolls down the front glass and  across the substrate towards the back of the tank. This moves most all detritus to the back bottom edge of the tank. It gathers there and is easy to vacuum up and remove.

The third filter has the output split so there are two returns one in each rear corner of the tank. Splitting the return decreases the output velocity by a lot. The output is aimed back inward at the spraybars. So the CO2 laden water hits the flow path going across the surface, down the front glass, and across the substrate.

This filter only has course filter pads and bio media as I want the flow rate to be stable. So really it's acting more like a pump than a filter. I could use a pump but I would have the flow rate set very, very low. 

So if your still with me I'm guessing that's way more than you wanted to know??


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## SpicyCrawdad (31 Mar 2022)

Yep. I've read your article over and over and over. I have kind of a weird setup with no room beneath the tank. Just some small space beside it as it sits on a window sill (no sunlight of course). Trying to come up with something that both looks pleasing and is functional has proven difficult in this location. Thanks for the info


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## GreggZ (3 Apr 2022)

After 10 days with no CO2 I got it back running on Monday. As mentioned above going to keep light levels low for a while now (71 PAR). Tank perked back up with CO2. Here's from a few minutes ago. Scape is a jumbled mess of indecision. I always figure if I stare at it long enough some inspiration will eventually hit me and I'll tidy it up.


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## plantnoobdude (4 Apr 2022)

GreggZ said:


> After 10 days with no CO2 I got it back running on Monday. As mentioned above going to keep light levels low for a while now (71 PAR). Tank perked back up with CO2. Here's from a few minutes ago. Scape is a jumbled mess of indecision. I always figure if I stare at it long enough some inspiration will eventually hit me and I'll tidy it up.
> 
> View attachment 185727


is that samolus parviflorus red and hyptis laciniata? I've heard both are pretty weedy. must be a lot of work maintaining this tank😅


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## GreggZ (4 Apr 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> is that samolus parviflorus red and hyptis laciniata? I've heard both are pretty weedy. must be a lot of work maintaining this tank😅


Yes and yes and it IS a lot of maintenance. Almost everything in there is weedy.  

This type of tank is not for anyone. I enjoy the process and consider it cheap therapy. 

But most importantly I enjoy sitting across the room and enjoying the view.


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## Quagulator (4 Apr 2022)

Glad to also join up on this forum! 

Tank looks good Gregg, I've been missing the updates as of lately. 

What are your opinions on LFS not allowing their employees to sell individual rainbows? Happened to me twice at 2 different stores - they could only sell pairs. I understand they don't want to be left with all females after the males have been picked through but... I've also never seen a for sale tank with only females left in it (with no regulation on selling pairs) so I'm torn on whether to be upset with the policy or understanding of it. 
Regardless, I told both stores no thanks and walked - one thing I have learned in the hobby is to try and not settle for anything less than what you want. If you put the effort and have patience, eventually you will source what you really want.


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## GreggZ (4 Apr 2022)

Quagulator said:


> Glad to also join up on this forum!
> 
> Tank looks good Gregg, I've been missing the updates as of lately.
> 
> ...


Hey good to see you here my friend! 

Yes I have see this trend of only selling pairs creeping up more and more. I know a LFS owner locally here and he said in the past many times he would end up with a tank full of females that nobody wants. So I have to say I don't like it but I do get it. 

The other option is to work with a breeder. But even that is hit and miss. Some will ship only males but others won't even guarantee the M/F ratio at all. And then you have shipping costs to factor in.

In the US there is one online retailer who will let you pick males and females, but they are the only one I know of.  So yeah it seems to have become more and more of an issue and likely will continue.


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## Quagulator (4 Apr 2022)

GreggZ said:


> Yes I have see this trend of only selling pairs creeping up more and more. I know a LFS owner locally here and he said in the past many times he would end up with a tank full of females that nobody wants. So I have to say I don't like it but I do get it.
> The other option is to work with a breeder. But even that is hit and miss. Some will ship only males but others won't even guarantee the M/F ratio at all. And then you have shipping costs to factor in.
> In the US there is one online retailer who will let you pick males and females, but they are the only one I know of.  So yeah it seems to have become more and more of an issue and likely will continue.


The first store employee said he ordered males only, and of the 3 species that arrived, only 1 species was male only, the other 2 were 50/50. I think the stores know how the trends go so they try and be proactive and request only males from the suppliers, but like you said it's not a guarantee and thus, the pairs only policy is implemented. Just one of those things we'll have to deal with!


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## KirstyF (4 Apr 2022)

Excerpt from your post



GreggZ said:


> hooked CO2 back up last night, but am going to leave the lights just as they are for a few weeks or a month. I want to see if I can find where the sweet spot is. A place where plants grow a bit less quickly, but still show very good color.



Excerpt from my journal yesterday



KirstyF said:


> I feel that I need to find the place where my light hungry plants are a bit happier but the tank isn’t running at super speed and I don’t think I’m quite there yet. Hopefully the very small increments of increase will help me find my sweet spot.



You’re coming down, I’m coming up. Spooky huh! 😂😂

Different planting I know, but will certainly be watching this ‘experiment’ with interest. Curious to know at what PAR level you hit that sweet spot! 👍


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## JacksonL (5 Apr 2022)

How are you measuring PAR?


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## GreggZ (5 Apr 2022)

KirstyF said:


> You’re coming down, I’m coming up. Spooky huh! 😂😂
> 
> Different planting I know, but will certainly be watching this ‘experiment’ with interest. Curious to know at what PAR level you hit that sweet spot! 👍


It will take time to understand the effect. Once things get really stable and I know what is what I can start slowly increasing PAR in small increments. Or might first try running a shorter burst of high light during the day. These things take patience.


JacksonL said:


> How are you measuring PAR?


I use a Seneye Reef. I've had it for years and have loaned it to dozens of people in the US. I have found it to be very reliable and close enough for our purposes. Knowing your PAR can help sometimes help explain things you are seeing in the tank.


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## ElleDee (5 Apr 2022)

Random question for you @GreggZ - do you have other tanks running? I get that this one is your pride and joy, and rightfully so, but I don't think I've heard mention of another.


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## Quagulator (5 Apr 2022)

ElleDee said:


> Random question for you @GreggZ - do you have other tanks running? I get that this one is your pride and joy, and rightfully so, but I don't think I've heard mention of another.



I'm almost positive he has a secret tank set up for the sole purpose of housing his piece of driftwood, with enough peer pressure he finally removed it from this tank but we all know he still loves that driftwood piece.


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## GreggZ (5 Apr 2022)

Quagulator said:


> I'm almost positive he has a secret tank set up for the sole purpose of housing his piece of driftwood, with enough peer pressure he finally removed it from this tank but we all know he still loves that driftwood piece.


LOL yeah I just saw that driftwood the other day on a basement shelf. Brings back lots of fond memories. It got to a point where it was almost entirely covered with plants. Here's the last pic of it in the tank. 

for a LONG time.


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## GreggZ (5 Apr 2022)

ElleDee said:


> Random question for you @GreggZ - do you have other tanks running? I get that this one is your pride and joy, and rightfully so, but I don't think I've heard mention of another.


Good question. I only keep the one tank. 

I've thought many times about starting up other ones but honestly this one keeps me busy enough. It's located in my den so it gets a lot of viewing. If I started other ones it would have to be in the basement and I doubt I would give it the attention it deserves. Put it this way. It's a hobby and I don't want it to become a chore.


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## ElleDee (5 Apr 2022)

Yeah, that all sounds very reasonable, but at the same time also wildly unrelatable! Such a dedicated hobbyist without at least a couple side projects? How?? I thought MTS comes for us all.


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## fjord (8 Apr 2022)

Hi GreggZ, and yes I remember you from TPT.  As a lover of Rainbow Fish, I look forward to continuing to follow you here.

Referring to your post about water flow from the previous page, it appears the two Rena XP L’s delivers 350G/Hr (1325 Ltr/ Hr), and the Rena XP XL delivers 450 G/Hr (1700 Ltr/Hr), totaling 1150 G/Hr (4350 Ltr/Hr).  All please check that my numbers are approximately correct.  This gives approximately 9 water changes per hour.  I thought this might be of interest for others making a comparison with other filters.

Could you possibly post the the online source for Male only Rainbows online, or PM me directly with the source info?  Might they be located in the Portland, OR area?


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## SkaleyAquatics (8 Apr 2022)

Hello Greggz, 

I was a pretty big lurker to your journal over at TPT, only commented a few times. As your tank was a huge inspiration for me to get into high tech planted aquariums. I am glad to see you have found a new home for your aquarium journal.


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## GreggZ (8 Apr 2022)

fjord said:


> Hi GreggZ, and yes I remember you from TPT.  As a lover of Rainbow Fish, I look forward to continuing to follow you here.
> 
> Referring to your post about water flow from the previous page, it appears the two Rena XP L’s delivers 350G/Hr (1325 Ltr/ Hr), and the Rena XP XL delivers 450 G/Hr (1700 Ltr/Hr), totaling 1150 G/Hr (4350 Ltr/Hr).  All please check that my numbers are approximately correct.  This gives approximately 9 water changes per hour.  I thought this might be of interest for others making a comparison with other filters.
> 
> Could you possibly post the the online source for Male only Rainbows online, or PM me directly with the source info?  Might they be located in the Portland, OR area?


Yep in theory with the filters unloaded that is about right. But turnover is only part of the equation. It's also in how you disperse that flow. Put it through a narrow nozzle and you have a strong turbulent flow. Put it through a wide nozzle and you have a weaker gentler flow.

Now as to Rainbows there are lots of options. Since you are in Portland I'd probably start with the WetSpot. They work with some breeders to bring in good lines of Rainbows. Next would be Imperial Tropicals out of FL. They also work with many of the top breeders in the US to offer good blood lines. With some species you can pay just a bit more and get all males. 

The next option is to work with individual breeders. I know most of the them. The issue there is that they usually only have one or two species available and ready to ship at a time. They also tend to ship when the Bows are very, very small and can't be sexed. 

You even have sites like Dan'sfish that gets fish from breeders and then sells them out of a central site. So there is good variety there of many "rarer" species in the hobby.

If you have something in particular you are looking for let me know and I may be able to point you in the right direction. 



SkaleyAquatics said:


> Hello Greggz,
> 
> I was a pretty big lurker to your journal over at TPT, only commented a few times. As your tank was a huge inspiration for me to get into high tech planted aquariums. I am glad to see you have found a new home for your aquarium journal.


Thank you and I am glad to hear it helped inspired you to get into high tech. That always warms my heart a bit as you never really know who is following and what they are thinking.

I will say from the time I started the journal to the end I sure did notice a LOT more planted Rainbow tanks popping up everywhere. And seeing their success makes all the posting worthwhile.


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## SkaleyAquatics (8 Apr 2022)

GreggZ said:


> Thank you and I am glad to hear it helped inspired you to get into high tech. That always warms my heart a bit as you never really know who is following and what they are thinking.
> 
> I will say from the time I started the journal to the end I sure did notice a LOT more planted Rainbow tanks popping up everywhere. And seeing their success makes all the posting worthwhile.


Does it count if I started a low tech tank with rainbows? LOL.  In reality they are going in my first summer tub this year, hoping to have a bunch of rhadinocentrus babies.


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## Easternlethal (9 Apr 2022)

@GreggZ Am also a keen follower and have been for years. 

Quick question - how do you get the plant at the back on the left hand side to stay short? Mine grow several feet long

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk


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## GreggZ (9 Apr 2022)

Easternlethal said:


> @GreggZ Am also a keen follower and have been for years.
> 
> Quick question - how do you get the plant at the back on the left hand side to stay short? Mine grow several feet long
> 
> Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk


How come I hear from more people now than when the journal was still up??

Do you mean the Nymphoides Hydrophylla 'Taiwan'? If so I pinch the top leaves every week, which makes it get bushier and bushier and keeps it shorter. Then every once in a while I pull the whole thing and rip off about 8" or 10" then replant and the cycle repeats. 

Like most plants it takes a while to understand how to trim it and bring it to good form. The good thing about this one is you can never make a bad mistake........it just grows and grows and grows.


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## Yugang (9 Apr 2022)

GreggZ said:


> Like most plants it takes a while to understand how to trim it and bring it to good form


This is so true. I believe trimming, selection, replanting are underrated skills. I consider myself, after many years, still an absolute beginner compared to the pro's, and would welcome if this aspect got a bit more attention on this forum so that I can develop my skills. It seems to me that trimming and planting skills have more impact in the total mix of things than a few ppm of this or that.


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## Yugang (9 Apr 2022)

I study the FTS of  your  tank in detail,  how different plant groups have their carefully crafted shapes and textures. I don't necessarily mean the texture of one stem, or leaves of a plant, but rather how the different stems are combined into one 'bunch' that looks interesting. And of course, as you say,  every species has its own character that you need to learn and master. If I would have to do four weeks maintenance of your tank, I worry the magic would have gone already. Understand what I mean?

I have seen youtube video's on trimming, and I have some experience myself as well. But what I would be looking for is some of the great scapers giving a 'masterclass'  that covers perhaps 2 months of their maintenance, with a focus on plant trimming, replanting, shaping etc. Perhaps that would be an interesting thread, where we see a bunch of photos/videos on that topic. I would be the first student


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## GreggZ (9 Apr 2022)

Yugang said:


> I study the FTS of  your  tank in detail,  how different plant groups have their carefully crafted shapes and textures. I don't necessarily mean the texture of one stem, or leaves of a plant, but rather how the different stems are combined into one 'bunch' that looks interesting. And of course, as you say,  every species has its own character that you need to learn and master. If I would have to do four weeks maintenance of your tank, I worry the magic would have gone already. Understand what I mean?
> 
> I have seen youtube video's on trimming, and I have some experience myself as well. But what I would be looking for is some of the great scapers giving a 'masterclass'  that covers perhaps 2 months of their maintenance, with a focus on plant trimming, replanting, shaping etc. Perhaps that would be an interesting thread, where we see a bunch of photos/videos on that topic. I would be the first student


You know I was thinking about that this morning when I did my weekly maintenance. In my old journal every once in a while I would document the process and I remember people always enjoyed it. There's no question different plants prefer different methods. I'll have to do that again soon.

And yes a tank like mine does take a bit more effort than other styles and is not for everyone. For me I actually enjoy the process and find it therapeutic. And more importantly I enjoy seeing the results. If someone does not enjoy the process, then it may not be the type of tank they should keep. 

One thing I always say is that once you learn how to grow plants..........well, they grow. A lot. There's a reason people say "keep your sleeves wet". Because it's a big part of keeping a high tech tank.


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## GreggZ (10 Apr 2022)




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## SkaleyAquatics (11 Apr 2022)

The first time I saw millenniums in person I was instantly hooked on them and they still look really good here.


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## JacksonL (20 Apr 2022)

Sorry if I’ve missed it, but may I ask what raw ingredients you use to roll your own micros?


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## GreggZ (20 Apr 2022)

JacksonL said:


> Sorry if I’ve missed it, but may I ask what raw ingredients you use to roll your own micros?


Jackson here is probably more than you want to know. I've been rolling my own for quite a few years now. Like many things in life, once you figure it out you find it was not as complicated as you first thought. If you have any questions let me know.


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## Quagulator (20 Apr 2022)

GreggZ said:


> Like many things in life, once you figure it out you find it was not as complicated as you first thought.



The toughest part about mixing your own micros is breaking out all the baggies and a scale then mixing them up. Not complicated at all, but it's sadly not an excuse to run to a LFS to grab some fertilizer and check out new plants / fish.


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## SkaleyAquatics (20 Apr 2022)

Greggz do you have a link to the file you use to track with. As I have switched to dry fertilizer I would like to breakdown what I put in weekly.


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## GreggZ (20 Apr 2022)

SkaleyAquatics said:


> Greggz do you have a link to the file you use to track with. As I have switched to dry fertilizer I would like to breakdown what I put in weekly.


I put together that spreadsheet years ago to help me track everything going on in my tank. Any time I make a change I take a screenshot and save it. So I can go back to any point in time and see what I was up to then. 

IMO it helps to keep good records. They can prevent you from making the same mistakes over and over again.

I've been freely sharing the file for years now. You can download it at the link below and use it any way you like to suit your needs.






						Planted Tank Shared Files – Google Drive
					






					drive.google.com


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## SkaleyAquatics (20 Apr 2022)

GreggZ said:


> I put together that spreadsheet years ago to help me track everything going on in my tank. Any time I make a change I take a screenshot and save it. So I can go back to any point in time and see what I was up to then.
> 
> IMO it helps to keep good records. They can prevent you from making the same mistakes over and over again.
> 
> ...


Thanks greggz!


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## JacksonL (21 Apr 2022)

GreggZ said:


> Jackson here is probably more than you want to know. I've been rolling my own for quite a few years now. Like many things in life, once you figure it out you find it was not as complicated as you first thought. If you have any questions let me know.View attachment 187087


Thanks for that Gregg, that’s super helpful. I just have a couple questions.
Are you mixing those into a single solution for your dosing? If so do you mix it weekly or make up a larger batch of it to save time weighing out ingredients? I guess a quick rundown of your process would be greatly appreciated if you have the time.
also what form do you get the fe gluconate in? I have found and ordered the rest of the ingredients, but my search for fe gluconate turns up both liquids and powders and those are all differing strengths.
thanks!


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## GreggZ (21 Apr 2022)

JacksonL said:


> Thanks for that Gregg, that’s super helpful. I just have a couple questions.
> Are you mixing those into a single solution for your dosing? If so do you mix it weekly or make up a larger batch of it to save time weighing out ingredients? I guess a quick rundown of your process would be greatly appreciated if you have the time.
> also what form do you get the fe gluconate in? I have found and ordered the rest of the ingredients, but my search for fe gluconate turns up both liquids and powders and those are all differing strengths.
> thanks!


If my journal at TPT was still up I'd just point you to the page where I went over it. I make up a 1000ml solution and dose 20 ml per day so lasts about 50 days. I make the solution with RO water and add 10 ml of distilled white vinegar and 0.4 gm potassium sorbate. The gram scale is a typical jewelers model that goes to 0.01 gram. Shake it like heck every so often for a few days and keep it stored in a dark place. Mine is in a closet and I have never had any issue with mold or anything like that. 

For the items that are very small amounts I create a separate 1,000 ml container (Nickel Sulfate Hexahydrate, , Copper Sulfate Pentahydrate, Sodium Molybdate) and add that to the micro 1,000 ml solution. It's a bit more math but not that bad. 

The ferrous gluconate is dry. 

Once you do it once you will see how easy it is.

Let me know if you have any other questions.


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## plantnoobdude (21 Apr 2022)

GreggZ said:


> If my journal at TPT was still up I'd just point you to the page where I went over it. I make up a 1000ml solution and dose 20 ml per day so lasts about 50 days. I make the solution with RO water and add 10 ml of distilled white vinegar and 0.4 gm potassium sorbate. The gram scale is a typical jewelers model that goes to 0.01 gram. Shake it like heck every so often for a few days and keep it stored in a dark place. Mine is in a closet and I have never had any issue with mold or anything like that.
> 
> For the items that are very small amounts I create a separate 1,000 ml container (Nickel Sulfate Hexahydrate, , Copper Sulfate Pentahydrate, Sodium Molybdate) and add that to the micro 1,000 ml solution. It's a bit more math but not that bad.
> 
> ...


Is there a reason you use unchelated? the reason I ask is because most of my Micros are chelated, but I haven't tried other sources. have you done so and have you found any difference?


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## GreggZ (22 Apr 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Is there a reason you use unchelated? the reason I ask is because most of my Micros are chelated, but I haven't tried other sources. have you done so and have you found any difference?


Hey Plantnoobdude I hope you don't get in trouble with the other guys for stopping in here!😄😄

I've been using the same or similar mix for about 5 years now. And I know dozens of others rolling their own with the same ingredients. I haven't found a need to try anything different as things have been going pretty well for a long time now.

As to micros in my opinion most tanks can get by well on a pretty wide range of dosing. I've been as high as 0.60 with Fe as proxy and as low as 0.20 weekly. No big changes other than interesting reactions from a very select group of plants. For most stem heavy tanks like mine I have found about 0.40 to be a sweet spot. Enough but not too much is a good general rule. Not an exact science and there are far more important things to worry about.

The bigger issue is to have good stable relative values and nothing in excess or completely lacking. That is the issue with some popular mixes being sold. As I am sure you know CSM+B is meant to be mixed in large vats with 100's or 1,000's of gallons of water to dose crops. The odds of getting a stable mix in your 1/8 tsp is very unlikely. That was likely an issue with many of the micro tox complaints. Just a single large overdose of B can wreak havoc on a tank. By rolling your own you can create a much more stable mix.


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## JacksonL (22 Apr 2022)

GreggZ said:


> If my journal at TPT was still up I'd just point you to the page where I went over it. I make up a 1000ml solution and dose 20 ml per day so lasts about 50 days. I make the solution with RO water and add 10 ml of distilled white vinegar and 0.4 gm potassium sorbate. The gram scale is a typical jewelers model that goes to 0.01 gram. Shake it like heck every so often for a few days and keep it stored in a dark place. Mine is in a closet and I have never had any issue with mold or anything like that.
> 
> For the items that are very small amounts I create a separate 1,000 ml container (Nickel Sulfate Hexahydrate, , Copper Sulfate Pentahydrate, Sodium Molybdate) and add that to the micro 1,000 ml solution. It's a bit more math but not that bad.
> 
> ...


Thanks yet again for your help!
All my ingredients have been ordered so I will be giving it a shot once they arrive.


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## Hanuman (22 Apr 2022)

JacksonL said:


> All my ingredients have been ordered so I will be giving it a shot once they arrive.


Time to try the IFC calculator to mix all those goodies? 😉


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## JacksonL (22 Apr 2022)

Hanuman said:


> Time to try the IFC calculator to mix all those goodies? 😉


Of course! only calculator that lets me see all the micros on the same page and calculate the individual solutions at the same time

(Feel free to put that on the infomercial 😃)


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## GreggZ (23 Apr 2022)

I posted this picture earlier in another thread. A rare treat to have someone you know in the hobby get a chance to see your tank. Gives a perspective of the size of the 120G


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## KirstyF (23 Apr 2022)

So….do you take that whole lid off for maintenance or do you have deceptively long arms! 😂


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## plantnoobdude (23 Apr 2022)

KirstyF said:


> So….do you take that whole lid off for maintenance or do you have deceptively long arms! 😂


an extra joint in his arm perhaps?


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## GreggZ (24 Apr 2022)

KirstyF said:


> So….do you take that whole lid off for maintenance or do you have deceptively long arms! 😂


LOL good question. The small doors on the canopy work well for daily tasks like feeding. The canopy has a piano hinge and flips wide open for maintenance. 

It's a DIY build made of solid oak using a Kreg's pocket jig and face frame construction. No plywood. No 2 x 4's. All 1x4, 1x6,1x10's. I built it so that the tank sits higher than most stands as I feel it has a better presence in the room. I need to use a step stool to do maintenance.


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## KirstyF (24 Apr 2022)

I use a step stool for my beastie too, though at 4’ 11” tall, I’d be using a step stool for most any tank tbf. 😂

That piano hinge design is pretty nifty and I guess the extra height on top makes access a bit easier. My cabinet top is fairly shallow so whilst it has liftable lids, access towards the back of the tank is still a bit awkward. Wasn’t brave enough to even think about DIY’ing something that size. 

Your cabinet is beautifully built, I must say (very tidy joints 👍) I’m planning on building some DIY oak planked cabinets on softwood frames this summer (not aquarium related) If I can get my finish anywhere near that I’d be chuffed.


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## swyftfeet (24 Apr 2022)

@GreggZ what polyurethane brand did you use?


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## GreggZ (24 Apr 2022)

swyftfeet said:


> @GreggZ what polyurethane brand did you use?


Varathane Ultimate. And lots of it. Holding up very well years later. 



KirstyF said:


> That piano hinge design is pretty nifty and I guess the extra height on top makes access a bit easier.


Yes the piano hinge works very well. I need open access to do what I have to on a weekly basis.

The canopy needed to be extra high as the T5HO's are mounted inside.


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## GreggZ (14 May 2022)

Sometimes life just gets super busy and the tank gets neglected a bit. That's the way it has been for me for a month or so.

Here's the mess it was this morning about 8:00am.






And here it is after about two hours of trimming. Once in a while I just need to whack the heck out of it, and today was that day.





It's been about 6 weeks running at what for me is very low PAR (71). All in all things have gone pretty well. But a few plants like (Pantanal, Bacopa Colorata, L. Cuba) are not showing great color.

So going to slowly start it back up in small increments and short bursts of high light to see where it goes and will update as things progress.


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## Yugang (19 May 2022)

GreggZ said:


> Sometimes life just gets super busy and the tank gets neglected a bit. That's the way it has been for me for a month or so.
> 
> Here's the mess it was this morning about 8:00am.
> 
> ...


I really love these before and after FTS @GreggZ , trying to learn from your trimming skills. Hope you can post like this more often 

Am I right that virtually all your plants this time were uprooted and replanted? Sometimes I read opinions that you can trim back a stem plant 6-7 times, after which it is time to uproot?


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## Qwedfg (19 May 2022)

I love this tank and I’ve been following your journal since the last website.  Was one of the big inspirations to get back into planted tanks although at a much smaller scale.


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## GreggZ (19 May 2022)

Yugang said:


> I really love these before and after FTS @GreggZ , trying to learn from your trimming skills. Hope you can post like this more often
> 
> Am I right that virtually all your plants this time were uprooted and replanted? Sometimes I read opinions that you can trim back a stem plant 6-7 times, after which it is time to uproot?


Much depends on the plant. There are some you can uproot and beat down every time and they don't miss a bit. Others require more finesse. It takes trial and error to determine which ones like what.

Take a plant like Pantanal or Cabomba Furcata. You can beat the heck out of them and they don't care. They grow so fast that they never really get any large root systems. But then take plants like Eriocaulon's or Samolus Parviflorus. They don't take uprooting as well and take longer to recover. Both are better left undisturbed as long as you can. And something like Barclaya Longifolia you never want to uproot. I had to when I deep cleaned my gravel and it's just now starting to bounce back from a complete melt. 

But in general my tank gets a LOT of uprooting. With some stems as things get shaded and crowded the older growth will begin to decay. Usually best just to trim it off and keep the tops. Better to have the energy spent on new growth than trying to repair old growth. With most stems roots grow quick. 

And keep in mind when you just trim back plants go through a period of not looking their best. I don't have much patience for that and like to keep the tank looking as good as I can. So for most of the faster stem type plants they might get uprooted every couple of weeks, and some like Myriophyllum Roraima it's every week or even more. It grows so fast I just pull out the entire bunch, rip off about 8", then plunge the entire bunch back in at once. Takes a few seconds and it could care less and just grows and grows.



Qwedfg said:


> I love this tank and I’ve been following your journal since the last website.  Was one of the big inspirations to get back into planted tanks although at a much smaller scale.


I can't tell you how glad I am to hear that. You know I wrote hundreds of pages of drivel and other than the regulars you never really know who is following. I will say when I started hanging out on some FB groups I was shocked at how many people knew my tank when I posted it. The sense of community and the many people who are willing to help and inspire others is one of the things that makes the hobby great.


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## John q (19 May 2022)

GreggZ said:


> I can't tell you how glad I am to hear that. You know I wrote hundreds of pages of drivel and other than the regulars you never really know who is following.


There's lots of folks following, continue uploading drivel. 😉


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## Hanuman (20 May 2022)

GreggZ said:


> Take a plant like Pantanal or Cabomba Furcata. You can beat the heck out of them and they don't care.


I'm surprised you used Pantanal for this example. My experience is  that Pantanal does not take uprooting/trimming kindly. I would think most other plants in your tank would not show much if any signs of looking bad as you say below after replanting. My experience is that Pantanal doesn't like being manhandled and even if it can still look great even 2-3 days after replanting, the top will progressively shrink and some side shoots might appear until it has properly re-established itself. You never experience that?
All other plants in my tank with no exception show 0 signs of degradation after replanting. To be fair I also don't have that many stem plants at the moment but all those stems plants I have kept in the last few years never showed as much stunting as L. Pantanal after replanting.


GreggZ said:


> And keep in mind when you just trim back plants go through a period of not looking their best





GreggZ said:


> and some like Myriophyllum Roraima it's every week or even more. It grows so fast


Yes that thing is like a bodybuilder on steroids. My Myriophyllum tuberculatum is the same. Sometimes I have to trim it mid week as it grows tall and thick quite indecently and I can see other plants running for safety.


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## GreggZ (20 May 2022)

Hanuman said:


> I'm surprised you used Pantanal for this example. My experience is  that Pantanal does not take uprooting/trimming kindly. I would think most other plants in your tank would not show much if any signs of looking bad as you say below after replanting. My experience is that Pantanal doesn't like being manhandled and even if it can still look great even 2-3 days after replanting, the top will progressively shrink and some side shoots might appear until it has properly re-established itself. You never experience that?
> All other plants in my tank with no exception show 0 signs of degradation after replanting. To be fair I also don't have that many stem plants at the moment but all those stems plants I have kept in the last few years never showed as much stunting as L. Pantanal after replanting.


I've kept the same patch of Pantanal for about 6 or 7 years. In that timeframe I've seen it do about everything it can do.

In my tank it likes good nutrient levels, high CO2, and high light. IME if you provide those, it barely skips a beat from trimming. I pull out the whole bunch and replant them every week (three at a time to speed things up).

For me it's a good indicator plant. If it's lacking something it's quick to complain, but it's also quick to recover when you make adjustments. 

But as always that is just my experience. Others mileage may vary.


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## erwin123 (20 May 2022)

I've experienced the 'head shrinking' of Pantanals as well. I'm wondering whether it has anything to do with the level of water column dosing. 
If Pantanal is in a tank with rich water column dosing, the fact that it loses its roots due to uprooting and replanting would not be a big loss to it, compared to say, a Pantanal in a tank with leaner dosing.
However (fingers crossed), Meta appears more tolerant of trimming and replanting.


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## Hanuman (20 May 2022)

GreggZ said:


> In my tank it likes good nutrient levels, high CO2, and high light.


Same here. Perhaps I could tweak CO2 / light a bit further but with the temperature swinging I am always a bit concerned about gazing the fish if temperature decreases.


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## GreggZ (20 May 2022)

erwin123 said:


> I've experienced the 'head shrinking' of Pantanals as well. I'm wondering whether it has anything to do with the level of water column dosing.
> If Pantanal is in a tank with rich water column dosing, the fact that it loses its roots due to uprooting and replanting would not be a big loss to it, compared to say, a Pantanal in a tank with leaner dosing.
> However (fingers crossed), Meta appears more tolerant of trimming and replanting.


Keep in mind I also front load all macros for the week right after a water change. If someone is following a schedule where they change water then space out macro dosing all week their nutrient levels are not stable. If you remove 50% or 75% of the water, you also remove 50% or 75% of the nutrients. Keeping levels stable goes a long with needy plants like Pantanal.

And having CO2 optimized is important as well. If my Pantanal acts up that's the first thing I double check.


Hanuman said:


> Same here. Perhaps I could tweak CO2 / light a bit further but with the temperature swinging I am always a bit concerned about gazing the fish if temperature decreases.


I think fluctuating temperatures and fish response is greatly overblown. I haven't run any heaters in my tank in years. When I do a water change the water is pumped up from holding tanks in my basement. In the winter that water is quite cool. I used to heat it but don't anymore. Tank temp goes from about 74* to maybe 66* (23C to 19C). Fish don't blink and are fine. Remember in nature water temps change, even going a few feet deeper there is drop in temp. IMO it would have to be a pretty radical drop to have any effect on fish at all.


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## Hanuman (20 May 2022)

GreggZ said:


> I think fluctuating temperatures and fish response is greatly overblown. I haven't run any heaters in my tank in years. When I do a water change the water is pumped up from holding tanks in my basement. In the winter that water is quite cool. I used to heat it but don't anymore. Tank temp goes from about 74* to maybe 66* (23C to 19C). Fish don't blink and are fine. Remember in nature water temps change, even going a few feet deeper there is drop in temp. IMO it would have to be a pretty radical drop to have any effect on fish at all.


It's not the temperature affecting the fish that worries me. It's the dissolved CO2 in relation to temperature that concerns me. If your temp is stable you don't have much issues. If temp swings then that's a different thing. You also have a controller which regulates CO2 injection in relation to PH so you don't have much to worry about. That's not my case.


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## GreggZ (20 May 2022)

Hanuman said:


> It's not the temperature affecting the fish that worries me. It's the dissolved CO2 in relation to temperature that concerns me. If your temp is stable you don't have much issues. If temp swings then that's a different thing. You also have a controller which regulates CO2 injection in relation to PH so you don't have much to worry about. That's not my case.


Aha I misunderstood what you meant. Yes with my tank full of hard to replace Rainbows the controller acts as a fail safe. It's a bit trickier if you are dialing it in with a needle valve that is for sure.


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## Unexpected (12 Aug 2022)

Haven't seen anything from you recently. Must be the hustle of summer! How's the tank going and any updates for us? How are you doing?


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## GreggZ (12 Aug 2022)

Unexpected said:


> Haven't seen anything from you recently. Must be the hustle of summer! How's the tank going and any updates for us? How are you doing?


Thanks for checking in. Summers are short here in Michigan so the tank does not get the full attention is deserves. Here it is from yesterday. Not ready for prime time but going to whip it into shape soon. It needs a good cleaning and general maintenance to get everything back on track.

Also just had a few new plants arrive and need to put my thinking cap on and start getting more serious about placement.

As far as updates have slowly been turning back up the light. Was down at 70-80 PAR for quite a while. I guess I just can't drive 55, so lights are back up to about 140 for most of the day then up to a little over 200 PAR for three hours. Dosing is steady targeting 24:8:30 NO3 : PO4 : K in the water column at all times.

Other than that all is well. I have a daughter getting married in a couple of months and seems like that has taken over my life!!!


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## Unexpected (12 Aug 2022)

Excellent, still looking good even while on autopilot. The Bows are looking nice too!


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## Hanuman (12 Aug 2022)

GreggZ said:


> Also just had a few new plants arrive


What are the new goodies?


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## GreggZ (12 Aug 2022)

Hanuman said:


> What are the new goodies?


You should see very shortly. Joe Harvey sent me some new ones and I have to work out how I fit them in. Likely going to lose a few species as I am just overloaded.

First weekend in a long time not traveling or some other event going on so hope to whip things into shape real soon. Will report back once I get things going again.


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## Ed Wiser (12 Aug 2022)

Glad to find you are here. Always enjoyed reading your thread on the planted tank forum. So sad about the Mod.


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## GreggZ (12 Aug 2022)

Ed Wiser said:


> Glad to find you are here. Always enjoyed reading your thread on the planted tank forum. So sad about the Mod.


Hey Ed yeah the whole thing was stupid. I posted what is commonly known among a very successful group of planted tankers from around the world. 

He disagreed and I was gone.


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## GreggZ (12 Aug 2022)

Had a chance to work on the tank today. Not the money shot but you get the idea. Seems like I always have a vision but getting it there takes time.


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## Ed Wiser (13 Aug 2022)

The scape crunch site seems to be down.
Will check with Art about it. 

Here is a link to the pdf of Aquarium Hobbyist issue your article is in. 



			http://aquariumhobbyistmagazine.com/magazines_files/184260348236f9554fe9375772ff966e-ahm-q1-2022-web.pdf


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## GreggZ (13 Aug 2022)

Ed Wiser said:


> The scape crunch site seems to be down.
> Will check with Art about it.
> 
> Here is a link to the pdf of Aquarium Hobbyist issue your article is in.
> ...


Thanks Ed! Let me know what you find from Art. I'd at least like to get a copy of it if the site is not going back up.


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## Ed Wiser (14 Aug 2022)

Checked with Art. He has been to busy and doesn’t have the time right now for keeping the site up. 
He did send me a link for the article in web archive. 









						Meet Gregg Zydeck - Dutch Inspired good guy - ScapeCrunch
					

Gregg Zydeck Dutch inspired aquascaper is stunning. In this indepth interview, Gregg shares his secrets to success with planted aquariums.




					web.archive.org
				




I was wanting to work on changing my current tank to a Dutch style like yours.


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## GreggZ (14 Aug 2022)

Ed Wiser said:


> Checked with Art. He has been to busy and doesn’t have the time right now for keeping the site up.
> He did send me a link for the article in web archive.
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Ed! 

My tank would likely get DQ'd in a Dutch competition. It's more "Dutch" inspired as it does not follow many Dutch rules. 

Your tank is looking great. If you go with more stems just be prepared......they grow.....a lot! Maintenance and pruning/trimming time will go up significantly.


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## GreggZ (14 Aug 2022)




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## Hanuman (15 Aug 2022)

GreggZ said:


> Had a chance to work on the tank today. Not the money shot but you get the idea. Seems like I always have a vision but getting it there takes time.
> 
> View attachment 192440


So what are the new plants names? Not that I don't like playing "spot the differences", but might be better if you tell us 
I see you also whacked the tulu and replanted a small stem. What's up with that?


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## PARAGUAY (15 Aug 2022)

Just a great tank and choice of Rainbows perfect 😍need to reread this journal @GreggZ .


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## GreggZ (15 Aug 2022)

Hanuman said:


> So what are the new plants names? Not that I don't like playing "spot the differences", but might be better if you tell us
> I see you also whacked the tulu and replanted a small stem. What's up with that?


I am always amazed at the level of detail that people pick out of my tank pics. Right now I have a bunch of new plants that are just sprinkled in amongst the regulars. Joe Harvey sent me a nice mix and it will take some time to see how they do and find them permanent homes.

Most are not all that “exciting”. There has been a trend of people wanting to find and keep “rares”. I have found that many times the rares are not that great to scape with. I am actually going back in the other direction and putting back in some tried and true favorites of mine.

What I try to do is mix a variety of colors and leaf shapes to create something that draws your eye around the tank. Sometimes I am more successful than others, and I have found that some folks love it and some folks hate it. In the end matters little as I pretty much just do whatever is pleasing to my eye. If I can sit for a long time staring at the tank and not lose interest then it’s what I set out to do.

So let’s take the Tulu you mentioned. I’ve kept it for a while but it has a similar color and leaf shape as other species that I keep. With everything else that I have I just don’t have a good spot to place it where it adds a lot to the presentation. That being said I kept a single stem just until I see how everything shapes up. Same for Macranda Variegated. I’ve kept the same batch going for about 8 years now. In my tank very similar color to Rotala Blood Red SG. I can only have so many red/pink plants or it could get overwhelming, so it might be time to phase it out. I feel like you need a balance with greens and other colors. I’ve seen some tanks where it's almost all reds and it doesn’t work for me. Of course in the meantime I did keep one stem just in case I change my mind!

Here is the list of what’s new.

Blyxa octandra, Hygrophila corymbosa 'Compact', Ludwigia Repens 'Rubin', Physostegia Purpurea, Rotala Mexicana Goias, Isoetes lacustris, Staurogyne spatulate, Lobelia cardinalis Mini.

I needed something grassy in the mix and the Blyxa Octandra should work well. Larger grassy plant stays green/yellow. Brings a nice contrast to other species. I wanted to add a large leaved red plant so added Ludwigia “Rubin”. I am going to keep it medium height as I like the way it is framed by the L. Cuba and Bacopa behind it.

Added back Hygro Cory Compact. Nothing special, easy to grow, but adds a burst of green at the foreground with a nice leaf shape. Same for L. Cardinalis mini. Common plant but should be nice in the foreground once it spreads and fills in.

Right now the R. Mexicana Goias is just sitting to the right of the Barclaya. The next step will be moving it to the foreground once it settles in a bit.

So right or wrong that is how my thought process works. These pics are really of a tank in transition. I have a vision of where I want it to be. Less species with fuller groups. A bit more “Dutch” like if you will.

But heck I could probably always say it’s a work in progress. Funny thing is some people see my tank and think it’s always the same. But rarely do I take a pic where everything is in the same place as the previous one. Subtle changes that few would notice but I do.

Now are your sorry you asked?


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## Ed Wiser (15 Aug 2022)

GreggZ said:


> Thanks Ed!
> 
> My tank would likely get DQ'd in a Dutch competition. It's more "Dutch" inspired as it does not follow many Dutch rules.
> 
> Your tank is looking great. If you go with more stems just be prepared......they grow.....a lot! Maintenance and pruning/trimming time will go up significantly.



Gregg I am retired.  I have been keeping Aquariums for 60 years now.


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## GreggZ (15 Aug 2022)

Ed Wiser said:


> Gregg I am retired.  I have been keeping Aquariums for 60 years now.


Perfect! If you go full Dutch you will have plenty to fill your time! Looking forward to updates.


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## Hanuman (15 Aug 2022)

GreggZ said:


> Now are your sorry you asked?


I'm glad I did. As we say, a picture is worth a 1000 words but it's good to hear the artist behind the work too!


GreggZ said:


> What I try to do is mix a variety of colors and leaf shapes to create something that draws your eye around the tank. Sometimes I am more successful than others, and I have found that some folks love it and some folks hate it. In the end matters little as it I pretty much just do whatever is pleasing to my eye. If I can sit for a long time staring at the tank and not lose interest then it’s what I set out to do.


Exactly that's the only thing that matters. The rest is superfluous. 


GreggZ said:


> Blyxa octandra, Hygrophila corymbosa 'Compact', Ludwigia Repens 'Rubin', Physostegia Purpurea, Rotala Mexicana Goias, Isoetes lacustris, Staurogyne spatulate, Lobelia cardinalis Mini.


Nice. A few that I have never grown.


GreggZ said:


> So let’s take the Tulu you mentioned. I’ve kept it for a while but it has a similar color and leaf shape as other species that I keep. With everything else that I have I just don’t have a good spot to place it where it adds a lot to the presentation. That being said I kept a single stem just until I see how everything shapes up.


The only problem I see with that plant is that it needs to be located at its final place from day one as any uprooting and replanting seem to affect the plant heavily and it takes quite some time for it to have a good shape again. I've been trying on my 60cm tank to shape it an it's giving me headaches. I think the tulu would look very nice in the center of your tank at the back as a big bush but it would take several months to grow to a good size.


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## GreggZ (15 Aug 2022)

Hanuman said:


> The only problem I see with that plant is that it needs to be located at its final place from day one as any uprooting and replanting seem to affect the plant heavily and it takes quite some time for it to have a good shape again. I've been trying on my 60cm tank to shape it an it's giving me headaches. I think the tulu would look very nice in the center of your tank at the back as a big bush but it would take several months to grow to a good size.


Yeah I have thought about that. But as you know Tulu is subject to sudden stunting. Why? Who knows it just doesn't like something. 

I have found I have no problem growing it. Plenty of side shoots and gets nice and bushy over time. But when it pouts it takes a while to come back to peak form. I get a similar color/look with the Rotala Macrandra Caterpillar just to the left of the Furcata. And it is totally drama free. I can literally pull out the entire bunch out, rip off about 5 inches, then plop it back down and it never skips a beat. So choosing to go down the path of least resistance. At least for now. These things are always subject to change.


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## rzn7z7 (15 Aug 2022)

Hi @GreggZ, the tank is looking great as always!  What's the tall flowery green plant behind the Barclaya (between the pantanal and blood red)?  Looks like something else to add to my wish list...


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## GreggZ (15 Aug 2022)

rzn7z7 said:


> Hi @GreggZ, the tank is looking great as always!  What's the tall flowery green plant behind the Barclaya (between the pantanal and blood red)?  Looks like something else to add to my wish list...


Thanks @rzn7z7!   That's Syngonanthus Sp. Meta. A no drama super easy steady grower that looks great. Will get as tall as you let it. Great for the background. Propagates steadily with side shoots so you don't need much to get started. 

One caveat the softer the water the better.


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## GreggZ (17 Aug 2022)

A few days later and a bit different. Cleaned up a few things. Still working at it!!


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## Hanuman (17 Aug 2022)

GreggZ said:


> A few days later and a bit different. Cleaned up a few things. Still working at it!! View attachment 192658


Is that Rotala Mexicana Goias up front? Looks like it to my naked eye. I added some in my new setup around a month ago. It's cute but grows rather slow for me.


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## GreggZ (17 Aug 2022)

Hanuman said:


> Is that Rotala Mexicana Goias up front? Looks like it to my naked eye. I added some in my new setup around a month ago. It's cute but grows rather slow for me.


Yep that's it. It's known to be a slow grower.....which may be good as I have enough weeds to keep me busy!


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## Hanuman (17 Aug 2022)

GreggZ said:


> Yep that's it. It's known to be a slow grower.....which may be good as I have enough weeds to keep me busy!


Indeed that was my intention as well. In fact I am thinking of removing L. Meta from that tank. It's just a pain to have to uproot every week since it reaches the surface.
I want to see if I can make a tight bush of that Rotala Mexicana Goias. It grows rather erratically and crawls on the substrate if given the space.


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## GreggZ (17 Aug 2022)

Hanuman said:


> Indeed that was my intention as well. In fact I am thinking of removing L. Meta from that tank. It's just a pain to have to uproot every week since it reaches the surface.
> I want to see if I can make a tight bush of that Rotala Mexicana Goias. It grows rather erratically and crawls on the substrate if given the space.


My tank is 26" deep so fast stems have some room to grow. You can see I just cut down the Pantanal a few hours ago. I'll post again in a few days to show the difference. People think that plants growing an inch a day is a myth.......I can tell you it's true with a few.


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## GreggZ (17 Aug 2022)




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## GreggZ (22 Aug 2022)

I have been spending a good deal of time talking to some of the brain trust I have access to and am going to try and make my tank more "Dutch" like. Keep my "style" but bring in more Dutch elements. Worked on it today and made it maybe 20% more Dutch. Going to keep working on it and practicing to determine if maybe I want to go full Dutch and enter the AGA next year. A long way from that now but you have to start somewhere. You have to crawl before you can walk.


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## Unexpected (22 Aug 2022)

GreggZ said:


> I have been spending a good deal of time talking to some of the brain trust I have access to and am going to try and make my tank more "Dutch" like. Keep my "style" but bring in more Dutch elements. Worked on it today and made it maybe 20% more Dutch. Going to keep working on it and practicing to determine if maybe next year I want to go full Dutch and enter the AGA next year. A long way from that now but you have to start somewhere. You have to crawl before you can walk. View attachment 193036


I mean, you have just over a week to make an entry this year!


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## milesjames (22 Aug 2022)

Mate that sounds like a great idea!! 

You have some fabulous plants to work with colour,  texture and them being matured. 

Can't wait to see it come to life 🙂🙂🙂


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## GreggZ (22 Aug 2022)

Unexpected said:


> I mean, you have just over a week to make an entry this year!


LOL yeah a few people suggested that. At this point it might just be a DQ. Creating actual Dutch takes time to perfect a layout. I am long, long way from that right now.


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## Thea B (22 Aug 2022)

You have great colours and textures going on in this tank. Really lovely!


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## Hanuman (22 Aug 2022)

GreggZ said:


> Going to keep working on it and practicing to determine if maybe I want to go full Dutch and enter the AGA next year. A long way from that now but you have to start somewhere. You have to crawl before you can walk.


Been saying the same thing to myself for the past year but each time I look at the rules made by Vin on the AGA website, I get cold sweats and I just go back to my freestyles. The amount of work to bring a tank to be a real Dutch is in my book beyond human, at least beyond myself 🤣


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## Hufsa (22 Aug 2022)

Hanuman said:


> The amount of work to bring a tank to be a real Dutch is in my book beyond human, at least beyond myself 🤣


Amen to this, just the amount of practice and detail required to master lining up the stems to get the groups looking exactly right, and then time the growth rate of a bunch of completely different plant species so it all comes together for one picture.. as you say, beyond
I like a wide variety of tank styles, but the skill required for the true Dutch style I have a lot of respect for 💪


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## GreggZ (22 Aug 2022)

Hanuman said:


> Been saying the same thing to myself for the past year but each time I look at the rules made by Vin on the AGA website, I get cold sweats and I just go back to my freestyles. The amount of work to bring a tank to be a real Dutch is in my book beyond human, at least beyond myself 🤣





Hufsa said:


> Amen to this, just the amount of practice and detail required to master lining up the stems to get the groups looking exactly right, and then time the growth rate of a bunch of completely different plant species so it all comes together for one picture.. as you say, beyond
> I like a wide variety of tank styles, but the skill required for the true Dutch style I have a lot of respect for 💪


Amen to both those replies. When I was just tightening things up and practicing I was already driving myself looney. 

But I've done the same type of scape for many years now, and figured I might dip my toe deeper into the Dutch end of the pool for a bit.

Will I be able to create a true Dutch tank? Unlikely. But if I can create something that blends my style with more Dutch elements that wouldn't be DQ'd in a contest that would be an accomplishment enough for me. At least for now. We'll see where things go.


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## Hanuman (22 Aug 2022)

GreggZ said:


> Amen to both those replies. When I was just tightening things up and practicing I was already driving myself looney.
> 
> But I've done the same type of scape for many years now, and figured I might dip my toe deeper into the Dutch end of the pool for a bit.
> 
> Will I be able to create a true Dutch tank? Unlikely. But if I can create something that blends my style with more Dutch elements that wouldn't be DQ'd in a contest that would be an accomplishment enough for me. At least for now. We'll see where things go.








						Some Rules for Dutch Style Aquascaping - A Quick Guide for Beginners
					






					www.aquatic-gardeners.org
				



Good luck. 
Jokes aside, I would really like to do a dutch one time too. Obviously one needs many skills for a Dutch tank but most importantly I think is knowing the growth pattern, the behavior, the trimming preferences etc of each sp planted and usually this take years to learn. Some people are more naturally able to learn these things fast, I am slow.


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## GreggZ (2 Sep 2022)

The latest. Not going to make it in time for the AGA this year. Will have to plan ahead more next year and give it a shot.

Right now it's just my tank with about 30% more Dutch!


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## John q (2 Sep 2022)

GreggZ said:


> Right now it's just my tank.


Aga can wait, I enjoy what you produce and suspect you do.....? I'll repeat aga 23 👍


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## GreggZ (4 Sep 2022)

Someone messaged me with a question recently about making custom micros. I thought I would answer it here as kind of a PSA on how I make mine. So if you don’t make custom micros this won’t be of much interest. For those who do it might help make it easier for you.

There are three components to micros that are measured in VERY small amounts, Copper Sulfate Pentahydrate (CuSO4*5H2O), Sodium Molybdate (Na2MoO4*2H2O), and Nickel Sulfate Hexahydrate (NiSO4 6(H2O)). The measurements are small fractions of a gram. That’s tricky to get right.
For my micros I make a 1000ml (1000ml = 1L) solution that adds the following per 20 ml dose to my 105 gallons of actual water volume: Copper at 0.00086, S. Molybate at 0.0005, and Nickel at 0.00142 ppm. In order to make that solution I would add 0.067 gm of Copper, 0.025 gm S. Molybate , and 0.0126 gm of Nickel to the solution. If anyone has tried measuring these small amounts you know what a pain it is, and the likelihood of it being correct is probably slim.





There is another way. I make a separate 1000ml solution of just these items.

So let’s look at Copper. If I was doing it the traditional way, I would add 0.067 gm of Cu into my solution. If I calculate that I find that 0.067 gm of Cu into 1000ml raises the concentration of that 1000 ml to 17.05 ppm. This is key. The amount of Cu I would add the old way brings that 1000ml solution to 17.05 ppm.





So instead of doing that, I will make a solution that raises 1000ml to 17.05 ppm Cu. In my case I make it so that 60 ml will raise 1000 ml to my target levels.

Still with me?

So again, I am creating 1000 ml solution so that a 60 ml dose will raise 1000 ml (1L) to 17.05 ppm Cu. To do so I need to add 1.1165 grams to the solution. This is much easier than measuring out 0.067 grams each time you make a new batch.





And then it’s so on and so forth for the other components. When I’m done I have a solution that will make about 16 batches of micros. That is a long time! I can tell you that it makes putting together your micro solution batches MUCH faster, easier, and less of a chore.

Now I need to go lie down for a while with a cold compress on my forehead!!


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## Hanuman (5 Sep 2022)

GreggZ said:


> Someone messaged me with a question recently about making custom micros. I thought I would answer it here as kind of a PSA on how I make mine. So if you don’t make custom micros this won’t be of much interest. For those who do it might help make it easier for you.
> 
> There are three components to micros that are measured in VERY small amounts, Copper Sulfate Pentahydrate (CuSO4*5H2O), Sodium Molybdate (Na2MoO4*2H2O), and Nickel Sulfate Hexahydrate (NiSO4 6(H2O)). The measurements are small fractions of a gram. That’s tricky to get right.
> For my micros I make a 1000ml (1000ml = 1L) solution that adds the following per 20 ml dose to my 105 gallons of actual water volume: Copper at 0.00086, S. Molybate at 0.0005, and Nickel at 0.00142 ppm. In order to make that solution I would add 0.067 gm of Copper, 0.025 gm S. Molybate , and 0.0126 gm of Nickel to the solution. If anyone has tried measuring these small amounts you know what a pain it is, and the likelihood of it being correct is probably slim.
> ...


Serial dilution baby. You said it. Only way to go in my opinion when it comes to these compounds unless one likes trading with the devil!


GreggZ said:


> Now I need to go lie down for a while with a cold compress on my forehead!!


If only you used the IFC Calculator (DIYTraceCalculator sheet to be specific) to make those serial dilutions, you wouldn't need to lie down and use those cold compress on your forehead!! Zeus and I specially got our heads and faces banged, trashed, hurt and disfigured at length for you all to have a peaceful and less painful, compress-free life. 😇
@Zeus. knows what I am talking about and will vouch for that statement, I'm sure.😅

Jokes aside, Zorfox's calculator works great and has also been one of the source for the making of the IFC calculator, so credits also go to Zorfox's. A quick note though, we have detected the same 3 or 4 miscalculations in both Zorfox calculator and Rotala Butterfly, which is not surprising as they are based one on each other. Luckily @fablau has been made aware of those bugs through the past 2 years and has fixed them in the Rotala Butterfly calculator.


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## GreggZ (5 Sep 2022)

Hanuman said:


> Jokes aside, Zorfox's calculator works great and has also been one of the source for the making of the IFC calculator, so credits also go to Zorfox's. A quick note though, we have detected the same 3 or 4 miscalculations in both Zorfox calculator and Rotala Butterfly, which is not surprising as they are based one on each other. Luckily @fablau has been made aware of those bugs through the past 2 years and has fixed them in the Rotala Butterfly calculator.


I've been meaning to do this for a while as this question comes up a lot. It's SO much easier when you make a secondary solution.

And tell Fablau I said hello. He's a great guy and has been a great help to the hobby over the years.


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## dw1305 (5 Sep 2022)

Hi all, 


Hanuman said:


> Serial dilution baby. You said it. Only way to go in my opinion when it comes to these compounds unless one likes trading with the devil!


I'm a <"serial dilution"> fan as well.

cheers Darrel


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## RLee2 (6 Sep 2022)

Hanuman said:


> If only you used the IFC Calculator (DIYTraceCalculator sheet to be specific) to make those serial dilutions, you wouldn't need to lie down and use those cold compress on your forehead!! Zeus and I specially got our heads and faces banged, trashed, hurt and disfigured at length for you all to have a peaceful and less painful, compress-free life. 😇
> @Zeus. knows what I am talking about and will vouch for that statement, I'm sure.😅
> 
> Jokes aside, Zorfox's calculator works great and has also been one of the source for the making of the IFC calculator, so credits also go to Zorfox's. A quick note though, we have detected the same 3 or 4 miscalculations in both Zorfox calculator and Rotala Butterfly, which is not surprising as they are based one on each other. Luckily @fablau has been made aware of those bugs through the past 2 years and has fixed them in the Rotala Butterfly calculator.


I would love to use you calculator, unfortunately I do not have microsoft excel 365, 2016 or 2019. I suspect many others may have the same issue.  I was able to open it with "Open Office" and poke around and it offers so much more than Zorfox or Rotala Butterfly. Oh well.


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## RLee2 (6 Sep 2022)

GreggZ said:


> I've been meaning to do this for a while as this question comes up a lot. It's SO much easier when you make a secondary solution.
> 
> And tell Fablau I said hello. He's a great guy and has been a great help to the hobby over the years.


Good to see your still at it. I followed you over from "TPT", shame what happened there. Tank is looking just as awesome as ever. It's a small world to Fablau aka Fabrizio lives just down the street from me.


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## GreggZ (6 Sep 2022)

RLee2 said:


> Good to see your still at it. I followed you over from "TPT", shame what happened there. Tank is looking just as awesome as ever. It's a small world to Fablau aka Fabrizio lives just down the street from me.


Hey I remember you from TPT!  Good to see you here! Yeah it is a shame. That guy SWS is out of control. I've read what I wrote and wouldn't change a thing. The worst part is that he took the journal down. I get loads of messages still asking where it went. Turns out far more people followed it than I was aware of.

In addition to journaling here I am also active on FB. I am a moderator at the Supplemented CO2 Planted Tanks group, and am active on the High-Tech Planted Tanks (Xiaozhuang Wong's group).

And you know Fab? How cool is that. You've got a great planted tank mind to pick there.


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## GreggZ (6 Sep 2022)

I always think of my tank presentation like a painting. So one thing led to another and here is the tank if it were a painting. Silly but fun!


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## Hanuman (7 Sep 2022)

RLee2 said:


> I would love to use you calculator, unfortunately I do not have microsoft excel 365, 2016 or 2019. I suspect many others may have the same issue.  I was able to open it with "Open Office" and poke around and it offers so much more than Zorfox or Rotala Butterfly. Oh well.


Unfortunately it will not really work under Open Office. It does work with the Online Excel version, although lots of the visuals are screwed but calculations seem ok.
Gregg has no excuse though, he has Excel and is a pro at it


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## GreggZ (7 Sep 2022)

Hanuman said:


> Gregg has no excuse though, he has Excel and is a pro at it


Who needs a calculator? I just do all the calculations in my head!! 😝


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## CMooner (10 Sep 2022)

GreggZ said:


> View attachment 193980


Hi Gregg,

Clarification please, So 1000ml of base micros, then 60ml of 1000ml Cu solution, 60ml Mo solution, 60ml Ni solution?
1000ml + 180ml = 1180ml final micro solution?

Thanks


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## GreggZ (10 Sep 2022)

CMooner said:


> Hi Gregg,
> 
> Clarification please, So 1000ml of base micros, then 60ml of 1000ml Cu solution, 60ml Mo solution, 60ml Ni solution?
> 1000ml + 180ml = 1180ml final micro solution?
> ...


Close.

1000ml base solution - add 60 ml Cu/Mo/Ni solution - total 1060ml - close enough for our purposes.


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## Hanuman (10 Sep 2022)

@GreggZ I plugged your numbers in the IFC calculator to see how well the below statement would compete with a machine calculator


GreggZ said:


> Who needs a calculator? I just do all the calculations in my head!! 😝


Unfortunately, as Sting says, I "hate to say it, but it's probably me" who's right 😂
I spoted an error with your NiSo4. Weight is off by quite a lot in relation to your target PPM. It's a decimal error. You just went one too far . I double checked with Rotala to make sure it was not an error on our side.
Also, we have coded the calculator so that it subtracts the volume from what is added from the stock solution so you end up with your requested container volume and accurate ppm requested values.

To your credit all others numbers match, so your head is working pretty well 😇


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## John q (10 Sep 2022)

Hanuman said:


> Unfortunately, as Sting says, I "hate to say it, but it's probably me" who's right 😂


And yet his plants look OK 👍


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## Hanuman (10 Sep 2022)

John q said:


> And yet his plants look OK 👍


Indeed, these are traces and I doubt even such big difference would make a difference at the end. As long as there is some, it's fine.


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## GreggZ (10 Sep 2022)

Hanuman said:


> @GreggZ I plugged your numbers in the IFC calculator to see how well the below statement would compete with a machine calculator
> 
> Unfortunately, as Sting says, I "hate to say it, but it's probably me" who's right 😂
> I spoted an error with your NiSo4. Weight is off by quite a lot in relation to your target PPM. It's a decimal error. You just went one too far . I double checked with Rotala to make sure it was not an error on our side.


LOL I can't believe someone actually reads this drivel!!😁 Good eye.

I transferred the information over from another sheet for that post. The amount of Ni that goes into the solution is actually correct. The error I made was when I transferred over the per dose ppm. Should have been 0.000142 ppm per dose.

But like you said, doubt it would make any big difference unless it got to toxic levels.


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## Hanuman (11 Sep 2022)

GreggZ said:


> LOL I can't believe someone actually reads this drivel!!😁 Good eye.
> 
> I transferred the information over from another sheet for that post. The amount of Ni that goes into the solution is actually correct. The error I made was when I transferred over the per dose ppm. Should have been 0.000142 ppm per dose.
> 
> But like you said, doubt it would make any big difference unless it got to toxic levels.


That’s what I guessed.
Order has now been restored. Here is the corrected version for the posterity or anyone with a 105 gallon tank wanting to replicate your dosing scheme.


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## GreggZ (11 Sep 2022)

Hanuman said:


> That’s what I guessed.
> Order has now been restored. Here is the corrected version for the posterity or anyone with a 105 gallon tank wanting to replicate your dosing scheme.
> View attachment 194341


Thank you my friend. It's always good to have an extra set of eyes for these things.


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## GreggZ (1 Oct 2022)

I am at the AGA Convention in Chicago and finally got to meet a couple of people I have been friends with for many years yet we never met in person. Vin Kutty, Joe Harvey, and a bunch of other wonderful hobbyists. What a pleasure to spend a few days talking planted tanks with people who love the hobby!


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## Yugang (2 Oct 2022)

GreggZ said:


> I am at the AGA Convention in Chicago and finally got to meet a couple of people I have been friends with for many years yet we never met in person. Vin Kutty, Joe Harvey, and a bunch of other wonderful hobbyists. What a pleasure to spend a few days talking planted tanks with people who love the hobby!View attachment 195133


I know most, but who's that handsome guy in the middle?


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## Hanuman (2 Oct 2022)

What I notice though is that you guys have been drinking more beer than a photography can handle.


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## GreggZ (2 Oct 2022)

Hanuman said:


> What I notice though is that you guys have been drinking more beer than a photography can handle.


LOL we haven't even had a drink yet..........you should have seen us eight hours later!


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## Hanuman (2 Oct 2022)

GreggZ said:


> LOL we haven't even had a drink yet..........you should seen us eight hours later!


Bellies don't lie. Ever.


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## Ed Wiser (2 Oct 2022)

It’s always fun to spend a weekend talking aquariums with those that share your interests.


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## GreggZ (3 Oct 2022)

Ed Wiser said:


> It’s always fun to spend a weekend talking aquariums with those that share your interests.


Agreed. The weekend exceeded my expectations and it seemed like it flew by far too fast. A great group of people and some of the brightest planted tank minds I know were there. If anyone has access to an event like this I strongly recommend making the effort to attend. It was well worth it for me.


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## Yugang (4 Oct 2022)

GreggZ said:


> the brightest planted tank minds I know


What are the topics where these brightest minds are still experimenting and making progress? Or is the meeting  more like an information sharing to try and all get to the same high level?


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## MichaelJ (5 Oct 2022)

GreggZ said:


> Agreed. The weekend exceeded my expectations and it seemed like it flew by far too fast. A great group of people and some of the brightest planted tank minds I know were there. If anyone has access to an event like this I strongly recommend making the effort to attend. It was well worth it for me.


Hi @GreggZ  Sounds like a great meetup with lots to learn. Next time something like this comes up in the upper midwest please let the forum know  

Cheers,
Michael


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## GreggZ (5 Oct 2022)

Yugang said:


> What are the topics where these brightest minds are still experimenting and making progress? Or is the meeting  more like an information sharing to try and all get to the same high level?


It's a little bit of everything. Folks talking about what works for them, what doesn't work, discussing new plants in the hobby, horticulture methods, maintenance methods, lighting methods, CO2 methods, aquascaping  methods, photography methods, fertilization, equipment set ups, water change set ups, etc. etc. etc. The level of detail in these discussions surpasses what you can do with the written word. 

But mostly it's a chance to meet a bunch of like minded people in person. Let's face it, outside of other nuts like us, most people aren't very interested in our nonsense. Spending a weekend with a bunch of people who are very enthusiastic about the hobby is a rare treat. And personally for me I got to spend a lot of time with two of my best friends in the hobby, Vin Kutty and Joe Harvey. Picking their brains over the weekend was a true pleasure!

Another bonus is that Gary Lange was a featured speaker so I got to spend a good deal of time talking Rainbows with him too!


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## MichaelJ (5 Oct 2022)

GreggZ said:


> Let's face it, outside of other nuts like us, most people aren't very interested in our nonsense.


Haha... you're completely right about that!


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## Ed Wiser (5 Oct 2022)

I have gone to many MACNA’s the marine version of the AGA meeting. You get to talk to people who are all in to the hobby. An do not roll their eyes when you spend all day talking about aquariums. Wish I could have come this year. But my wife’s health limits my travel now days.


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## MichaelJ (5 Oct 2022)

Hi @Ed Wiser.    Yes, that social aspect, as in meeting likeminded people in real-life, can really be a challenge in this hobby. Around here where I live in Minnesota there is not much of an organized aquarium community and the few people I know personally in this hobby are either into near plant-less tanks (big cichlids) or reef tanks. We do have a couple of pretty good serious aquarium stores around in the outskirts of Minneapolis though that always seems busy and I did mention to one of the owners that he should put in a bar so people can hang out for an adult beverage and talk hobby 

Cheers,
Michael


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## GreggZ (5 Oct 2022)

Cabomba Furcata. Kind of a pain to maintain but worth the effort.


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## John q (5 Oct 2022)

GreggZ said:


> Cabomba Furcata


Wow, now that's a nice looking plant.


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## GreggZ (5 Oct 2022)

John q said:


> Wow, now that's a nice looking plant.


Thanks. It's also pearls like mad later in the day. I'll get a shot and post it.


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## GreggZ (29 Oct 2022)

Here's the latest. Currently targeting NO3 : PO4 : K at 30 : 10 : 40 in the water column. Everything seems to be on autopilot at those levels.


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## milesjames (29 Oct 2022)

Looking great everything looking nicely spaced and very healthy. 😊 Nice to see a cabomba colour up well. 😊😊


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## Hanuman (30 Oct 2022)

GreggZ said:


> 30 : 10 : 40


Nice. Going Godzilla mode.
Surely at those levels you noticed an increased growth speed?


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## GreggZ (30 Oct 2022)

Hanuman said:


> Nice. Going Godzilla mode.
> Surely at those levels you noticed an increased growth speed?


LOL it's not really THAT high. Keep in mind those are target numbers in the water column. Just boosted them slightly a while back.

And yes the plants grow fast. But also healthy and colorful and that's my primary goal. I can deal with the trimming. Cheap therapy for me!!


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## Freshflora (30 Oct 2022)

GreggZ said:


> Here's the latest. Currently targeting NO3 : PO4 : K at 30 : 10 : 40 in the water column. Everything seems to be on autopilot at those levels.View attachment 197015View attachment 197016View attachment 197017View attachment 197018View attachment 197019View attachment 197020View attachment 197021View attachment 197022View attachment 197023


Looking really great!  Especially jealous of your Pantanal.


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## Courtneybst (30 Oct 2022)

GreggZ said:


> I am at the AGA Convention in Chicago and finally got to meet a couple of people I have been friends with for many years yet we never met in person. Vin Kutty, Joe Harvey, and a bunch of other wonderful hobbyists. What a pleasure to spend a few days talking planted tanks with people who love the hobby!View attachment 195133


Had no idea you were there! Will have to seek you out next time. 😁


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## GreggZ (30 Oct 2022)

Courtneybst said:


> Had no idea you were there! Will have to seek you out next time. 😁


Yep was a wonderful time and flew by much too quickly!


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## Unexpected (3 Dec 2022)

Are you still front loading those numbers?


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## GreggZ (11 Dec 2022)

Unexpected said:


> Are you still front loading those numbers?


Yes still front loading but just a little bit richer now.


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## Unexpected (11 Dec 2022)

GreggZ said:


> Yes still front loading but just a little bit richer now.


Are you offering a mid week bump or ride it out through the next water change?


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## GreggZ (11 Dec 2022)

Unexpected said:


> Are you offering a mid week bump or ride it out through the next water change?


My water is all pre dosed in my RO storage tanks. Whether I change water in 3 days or 7 days, the new water coming in is always dosed to the same target. I don't dose any macros between water changes.

There is a reason. If you would like to know more I can elaborate.


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## Unexpected (11 Dec 2022)

GreggZ said:


> My water is all pre dosed in my RO storage tanks. Whether I change water in 3 days or 7 days, the new water coming in is always dosed to the same target. I don't dose any macros between water changes.
> 
> There is a reason. If you would like to know more I can elaborate.


Always. Over on that other forum, you told me I might need to add a bit mid week when you first explained front loading to me. I actually didn't get my AGA submission because I messed up on this part. So definitely elaborate.


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## DeadFish (14 Dec 2022)

GreggZ said:


> My water is all pre dosed in my RO storage tanks. Whether I change water in 3 days or 7 days, the new water coming in is always dosed to the same target. I don't dose any macros between water changes.
> 
> There is a reason. If you would like to know more I can elaborate.


Please do elaborate.


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## GreggZ (18 Dec 2022)

DeadFish said:


> Please do elaborate.


*Front Loading Macro Nutrients. What is it and why would anyone do it??*

As some of you may know I have been front loading all macro nutrients right after a water change for years now. I get a lot of questions about that so I going to try and explain why this works for me, and why it may work for you.

When I got started I was dosing like the majority of people do. I’d perform a water change, have a day of rest (whatever that means?), then start dosing macros and micros on alternating days. I did this without really thinking much about it, it was just what I read and seemed like what everyone else was doing.

But along the way I began to notice something. Some plants seemed to really stall after a water change, and then would peak just before the next water change. This happened mostly to sensitive species or large fast growing colorful stems.

After observing this long enough I decided to rethink what I was doing. It occurred to me that with my large (70%) water changes I was removing a large amount of nutrients out of the water column. So I put together a spreadsheet to better understand and visualize what was happening in my tank. I also started thinking more about plant uptake of nutrients and tank generated nutrients. As I began to examine things more closely it really changed the way I looked at nutrient dosing.

Let’s look at my tank. At the time I was dosing 21 ppm NO3 weekly with 70% water change. For now I will ignore plant uptake and tank generated nutrients. Excluding any other variables this is what happens from one water change to the next. The number to focus on is the Daily NO3 in week 11. I used week 11 because as you may recall from the post on accumulation anything past week ten is reflecting the maximum theoretical accumulation.





It's not surprising you see a steep drop off of nutrients, and then a slow rise until they peak again just before the next water change. This also correlates exactly to what I was seeing with certain plant species. Their peak health was on the same timeline.

Now let’s say for the sake of argument that 30 ppm NO3 in the water column is the optimum number to keep the highest number of plants happy at one time. If that were true, why would I want my numbers to be constantly changing, and why wouldn’t I just want to keep it at that peak level?

One thing that I have learned over the years is that plants like stability. They don’t like change. I look at plants like a factory. After a period of time the factory is humming along. But when things change all of the sudden things are not so smooth. A good example is when you get plants shipped to you. Sometimes that plant will go through a pretty rough period. It’s adjusting to the parameters of your tank (CO2 levels, light levels, nutrient levels, etc.). But once it adjusts and figures things out the growth is robust and healthy again.

Since I am big believer in stability, I started looking at ways to keep my water column numbers more stable. So let’s say instead of dosing that 21 ppm NO3 in three doses, let’s dose all of it right after a water change. Well here’s how that looks.





Again pay attention to the daily NO3 level in week 11. Shocking, right? The water column level is completely stable. So which do you think is better for plants? For me there is no question it’s better to keep things as steady as possible.

Now those are very simple examples. I didn’t include plant uptake or tank generated nutrients. In my tank with my large fish load I have determined that the two pretty much cancel each other out (about 2 ppm per day each). But other tanks may be different. Let’s say someone has a high light tank full of stems but no fish so little to no tank generated nutrients. Let's estimate the plants are taking up 2 ppm of NO3 daily. How would that look?




As you see now the tank peaks with nutrients right after a water change then nutrients slowly get depleted throughout the week. In this case someone may want to split their dosing into two doses, ½ after a water change (replacing the nutrients), then two smaller doses later in the week. This is how that would look.




So you see in this case by splitting up the doses it keeps the water column more relatively stable.

My thought about posting this is to help people think outside the box, and not to be afraid to try something new. Every tank is different and you need to think in terms of what would work best in your own particular tank.

I can tell you this I have been front end loading macros for many years now and would never go back. If nothing else for the convenience factor. The interesting thing is that my readings are almost exactly the same no matter what day I take them, and my TDS is almost exactly the same right before and after a water change. I remember when I announced I was going to try this a lot of people gasped. Now I know a lot of people using the same or similar methodology. I hope that is interesting to some of you out there.


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## Unexpected (18 Dec 2022)

GreggZ said:


> *Front Loading Macro Nutrients. What is it and why would anyone do it??*
> 
> As some of you may know I have been front loading all macro nutrients right after a water change for years now. I get a lot of questions about that so I going to try and explain why this works for me, and why it may work for you.
> 
> ...


Thanks for showing these. I think where I went wrong was front loading too lean. I thought the Landen Soil would cover the difference, but I lost the tank right before the AGA deadline.
The tank had other arrangement problems but it could have been a top 10 (I think). This is the only picture I have of it. I was pretty disgusted with my failure. I also had a few cutting issues with the colorata.


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## GreggZ (18 Dec 2022)

Unexpected said:


> Thanks for showing these. I think where I went wrong was front loading too lean. I thought the Landen Soil would cover the difference, but I lost the tank right before the AGA deadline.
> The tank had other arrangement problems but it could have been a top 10 (I think). This is the only picture I have of it. I was pretty disgusted with my failure. I also had a few cutting issues with the colorata.


Yeah that pic has a lot of great Dutch elements. I think it would have scored well.


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## DeadFish (19 Dec 2022)

GreggZ said:


> *Front Loading Macro Nutrients. What is it and why would anyone do it??*
> 
> As some of you may know I have been front loading all macro nutrients right after a water change for years now. I get a lot of questions about that so I going to try and explain why this works for me, and why it may work for you.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much, @GreggZ . Not to hijack your thread, but just to make sure I'm 100% clear, without testing (I refuse to because I don't care enough to at the moment) RBF calculator puts my NO3 accumulation at 21ppm by WC day. If I'm doing a 50% WC and removing 1/2 the NO3 (~11ppm,) I would just dose back the 11ppm then? This is very interesting to me as I also notice the same trends, particularly in fast growing stems. I know PAR changes as plants grow up, but I definitely notice a difference in plant color pre/post WC. Recently, I've been noticing that prior to a WC, R. Mini Butterfly will have a gorgeous pink (this is a slow grower for me) hue, and then immediately after,  it loses color. However, it has only grown a few cm in that time and even without a trimming, it still will lose that color until it perks back up by the end of the week. Is this similar to what you've noticed? Based on your reply I will begin frontloading this week. I have a ton of fast growing stems and a fairly well stocked tank, so I'm operating under the assumption that accumulation from waste and plant uptake will cancel out as well.

Edit: I'm also operating under the assumption that these symptoms are non-CO2 related in my case as my pH controller drops 1.4 within 30 min and doesn't move for the duration of the PP.


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## dw1305 (19 Dec 2022)

Hi all,


DeadFish said:


> I've been noticing that prior to a WC, R. Mini Butterfly will have a gorgeous pink (this is a slow grower for me) hue, and then immediately after, it loses color. However, it has only grown a few cm in that time and even without a trimming, it still will lose that color until it perks back up by the end of the week.


I'd guess it is probably to do with the chlorophyll density of the plants. The <"pink colours are the anthocyanin based pigments"> (in the cell vacuole) showing through the mesophyll cells.

When you've just added nutrients (and I'm also going to <"guess really nitrogen (N)">) the density of chlorophyll in the mesophyll chloroplasts is high enough to mask that pink colouring.

cheers Darrel


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## Tim Harrison (19 Dec 2022)

Thanks for sharing your methodology here @GreggZ. Great to gain at least some insight in to how you achieved such stunning plant growth.


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## DeadFish (19 Dec 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'd guess it is probably to do with the chlorophyll density of the plants. The <"pink colours are the anthocyanin based pigments"> (in the cell vacuole) showing through the mesophyll cells.
> 
> ...


If I'm misunderstanding, let me know - However, I'm saying that at max nutrient accumulation prior to a WC is when I see the best color, and then a subsequent water change will decrease color for a day or two. I was not frontloading NPK, so accumulation would occur throughout the week. So if I'm understanding  your post correctly, would that not have the opposite effect? I.e. reducing N w/ a WC bringing out more anthocyanin pigments?


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## GreggZ (19 Dec 2022)

DeadFish said:


> RBF calculator puts my NO3 accumulation at 21ppm by WC day. If I'm doing a 50% WC and removing 1/2 the NO3 (~11ppm,) I would just dose back the 11ppm then?



If your max accumulation is 21 ppm and you change 50% then you should dose the new incoming water to your max accumulation target. Let's say you remove 50 gallons, then the "new" 50 gallons is dosed to 21 ppm. To look at it another way all new incoming water is dosed to the targeted max accumulation.

This is what I refer to as "target" dosing. No matter how much water is removed, the new incoming water is always dosed to the target. 

If you really want to geek out here is something I wrote up about this recently. This is the way I look at my tank and my dosing.

*Target Dosing – What does it mean??*

For some reason along the way the commonly accepted method of reporting dosing became posting the total ppm of nutrients you dose per week (NO3 : PO4 : K). As shown in the discussion above about accumulation depending on your water change schedule that can mean a lot of different things. So if you compare your dosing to others you may not be comparing apples to apples.

The odd thing to me is that common way we report dosing has little to do with the level of nutrients we would like to see in the water column. Which, if you think about it, is the whole point of dosing, right?

I prefer to look at my tank in terms of what I call “Target Dosing”.

So what does that mean? Instead of thinking in terms of how much you dose per week, instead start thinking in terms of the “Target” ppm you would like to see in the water column. This takes the water change volume and frequency out of the equation.

If we go back to the discussion on accumulation, you may remember that someone saying they dose 20 ppm of NO3 can mean a lot things. At 25% water change that means 80 ppm in the water column, at 50% water change that means 40 ppm in the water column, and at 75% water change that means 26.66 ppm in the water column.

So lets look at this another way. Let’s say my target is 30 ppm of NO3 in the water column. In my tank I change 70 gallons of water at a time. The way I calculate dosing is that I want to raise the “new” incoming 70 gallons of water to my “target” ppm. Here’s the calculation.





So why do I prefer to look at my dosing as dosing to a target? Well in my case sometimes I change my water once a week. Sometimes twice a week. Sometimes a full 70 gallons. Sometimes 35 gallons mid week. Makes no difference I keep it simple. If I remove 35 gallons I dose the new 35 gallons to my target. If I change 70 gallons I change the new 70 gallons to my target.

Here’s one more way to look at it. Below are my RO water storage tanks. It’s where I store the water that is pumped up to my tank during a water change. These tanks are constantly kept at the same nutrients levels. So all incoming water is pre dosed to my water column targets.




And there is one more advantage. Let’s say I am comparing my dosing to my friend Joe Harvey .

He might tell me he is dosing 28 ppm NO3. But his water change percentage is 90%.

And I might tell him I am dosing 22 ppm NO3. But my water change is 70%

And someone else tells me they are dosing 15 ppp NO3 with a 50% water change.

If we remember our calculation to find the maximum theoretical accumulation (ppm divided by water change percentage), it turns out we are all dosing to reach the same "target".

28 ppm NO3 divided by .90 = 31

22 ppm NO3 divided by .70 = 31

15 ppm NO3 divided by 0.50 = 30.

So to me this is a simpler way to think about dosing that makes it easy to understand what that dosing means. A few years ago I went on a crusade to change the way people report their dosing as their “target”….but it didn’t really catch on. Although I do see a few people here and there that I know now referring to it. So you might notice when I post my parameters I list the “target” ppm. I also convert that to the typical EI equivalent if I was performing the typical 50% water change that most do.

As usual I hope that helps a few people out there and offers another way to think about how you dose your tank.


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## GreggZ (19 Dec 2022)

And as long as I am posting some of my nonsense here is something I wrote up about accumulation and why it matters.

*Accumulation……what is it and why does it matter?*

As you progress in the hobby, you will notice that people often report their weekly fertilizer dosing. You might see some report they are dosing NO3 : PO4 : K at 20:5:20.

First of all what does that mean? It’s the total weekly dose of each nutrient into the water column. People post it as a reference to their dosing schedule. In the above example someone is dosing 20 ppm of Nitrogen (NO3), 5 ppm of Phosphate (PO4), and 20 ppm of Potassium (K).

So most people think if I just copy this dosing then I am dosing the same thing. Makes sense, right? Well the truth is not really. The thing people don’t factor into the discussion is the water change percentage and frequency. Depending on those two variables that dosing can mean a lot of things, and if you aren’t on the same schedule then your water column nutrients could be wildly different.

To understand why you need to understand how accumulation works, and something we refer to as the maximum theoretical accumulation. The maximum theoretical accumulation is the highest level the water column ferts will accumulate to over a long period of time. It’s theoretical as we are not taking into account the uptake of nutrients by plants or the tank generated nutrients that come from fish waste, fish food, dead/decaying plant matter, etc. For what it’s worth in my tank I believe those two pretty much cancel each other out.

Let’s take a look at what happens when we dose 20 ppm of NO3 into the water column and perform 50% water changes once a week. The tank starts with 20 ppm NO3 in the water column. At the end of the week you perform a 50% water change which removes half of the NO3 which lowers the NO3 level to 10 ppm. Then you add another 20 ppm NO3 and the tank is now at 30 ppm NO3. And so it goes. The next week you remove 50% of the nutrients which brings the tank to 15 ppm NO3. Then you add another 20 ppm NO3 which brings the level to 35 ppm.

And this goes on and on until after 10 weeks you are constantly at your theoretical maximum. There is actually a formula to calculate this number quickly. It’s the ppm of the amount of nutrients dosed between water changes divided by the water change percentage. For instance in this case the theoretical maximum would be 20 ppm divided by 0.50 = 40 ppm. And note I said the amount of nutrients dosed BETWEEN water changes. If you are performing water changes every two weeks use the total nutrients dosed in those two weeks for your calculation. Same goes if you are changing water twice a week……..use the total nutrients dosed between water changes.

So why does this matter? First of all when someone reports their dosing it is not the same as reporting their preferred level of nutrients in the water column. It is simply reporting how much they are dosing. But let’s say instead of changing 50% of the water someone changes only 25%? What is the effect? Let’s use our formula. 20 ppm NO3 divided by 0.25 = 80 ppm. So you see the accumulated nutrients are twice as high. Then let’s compare that to someone who changes 75% of their water. 20 ppm divided by 0.75 = 26.66 ppm.

So the point is that if you think you are following someone’s dosing, if you aren’t performing the same water change percentage at the same frequency then your end result can be drastically different.

I put together the chart below to help visualize how accumulation works. If you can understand what is going on in this chart then you will understand accumulation and why it matters. Remember after ten weeks you have hit your maximum accumulation and the nutrient levels will be stable at the number.

I hope this is helpful to some folks. It’s something that should be discussed more often. I thought I would lay out my thoughts on the subject so I can refer people back to this when it comes up.


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## MichaelJ (19 Dec 2022)

Great writeup's  @GreggZ !



GreggZ said:


> It’s theoretical as we are not taking into account the uptake of nutrients by plants or the tank generated nutrients that come from fish waste, fish food, dead/decaying plant matter, etc. For what it’s worth in my tank I believe those two pretty much cancel each other out.


I experience more or less the same thing in my tanks (low-techs). How do I know, you may ask? Well, a good indicator is that my TDS stays pretty much the same over time and in-between water changes (35% every 10-12 days)-  within a 5-10 ppm margin.  Very stable.

Cheers,
Michael


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## DeadFish (19 Dec 2022)

GreggZ said:


> If your max accumulation is 21 ppm and you change 50% then you should dose the new incoming water to your max accumulation target. Let's say you remove 50 gallons, then the "new" 50 gallons is dosed to 21 ppm. To look at it another way all new incoming water is dosed to the targeted max accumulation.
> 
> This is what I refer to as "target" dosing. No matter how much water is removed, the new incoming water is always dosed to the target.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for this. This is all appreciated. I guess my one question is that if we're assuming that fish waste / plant uptake cancel each other out, why dose the new water to the accumulation point if we already have half the accumulation remaining in the aquarium? If my target is 21ppm and I change 10g (50%,) why dose the new 10g to 21ppm when we have a residual ~10ppm in the tank? I really like this idea and can see the practical benefits, just curious if I'm understanding that correctly.

Edit:  I should have looked at the flowchart a little closer. I get what you're saying about theoretical max accumulation now.


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## GreggZ (19 Dec 2022)

DeadFish said:


> Thank you so much for this. This is all appreciated. I guess my one question is that if we're assuming that fish waste / plant uptake cancel each other out, why dose the new water to the accumulation point if we already have half the accumulation remaining in the aquarium? If my target is 21ppm and I change 10g (50%,) why dose the new 10g to 21ppm when we have a residual ~10ppm in the tank? I really like this idea and can see the practical benefits, just curious if I'm understanding that correctly.
> 
> Edit:  I should have looked at the flowchart a little closer. I get what you're saying about theoretical max accumulation now.


As you probably figured out if you remove 10g of 21 ppm water, we replace with 10g of 21 ppm water.


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## dw1305 (20 Dec 2022)

Hi all, 


DeadFish said:


> However, I'm saying that at max nutrient accumulation prior to a WC is when I see the best color, and then a subsequent water change will decrease color for a day or two. I was not frontloading NPK, so accumulation would occur throughout the week. So if I'm understanding your post correctly, would that not have the opposite effect? I.e. reducing N w/ a WC bringing out more anthocyanin pigments?


It would, scrub my original reply. 

cheers Darrel


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## DeadFish (20 Dec 2022)

GreggZ said:


> As you probably figured out if you remove 10g of 21 ppm water, we replace with 10g of 21 ppm water.


Yes, I confused concentrations. My bad.


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