# German ram - parasite/worm?



## Sammy Islam (17 Feb 2020)

Hey all,
I thought i was having good luck with my rams but my male is now ill and I don't know what meds are effective for this sort of thing. I've had a pair for nearly 6 months and they are very active and eat a lot. I feed them different types of tetra crisps, hikari micro wafers, NTlabs red 48 chichlid food and mixed frozen food aswell as peas every week.

The last 2 days the the male has been hanging around near the substrate and not moving, just breathing heavy. He hasn't been interested in food for the first time ever which is very worrying as hes usually a beast. I've done 2 water changes in the past two days to see if that helps him out.

Now i have noticed something hanging out his bum, looks like a worm? It has come out more today so maybe hes crapping it out? I did 2 rounds of general cure the 3 weeks ago as his belly was becoming flat/sunken even though he was eating loads and not pooping much. What can i do? Only positive thing is he is still very colourful, with the dark striping.

Thanks


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (17 Feb 2020)

To me this looks like the ovipositor on the female... have a google and see if you think it might be... the behaviour and colour action fits also...


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## Sammy Islam (17 Feb 2020)

It's my male, the female seems fine and doesn't have a sunken belly and is red/pink, also very active and eating loads.


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## Tim Harrison (17 Feb 2020)

It's always hard to diagnose what's wrong, especially remotely. I'd be tempted to treat with broad spectrum meds. Take a look at eSHa products. They've always worked well for me and are usually well tolerated and shrimp and plant safe. A combination of eSHa 2000, EXIT, and gdex will cover most bases.


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## dw1305 (17 Feb 2020)

Hi all, 
I think @Tim Harrison's are good suggestions, but I would also worry about <"_Camallanus">. "_Levamisole HCl" is what you want for these, you can buy it as <"Harka Verm"> for caged birds. 

cheers Darrel


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## Tim Harrison (17 Feb 2020)

That makes more sense Darrel; just reread the op properly.


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## alto (17 Feb 2020)

Sammy Islam said:


> I did 2 rounds of general cure the 3 weeks ago as his belly was becoming flat/sunken even though he was eating loads and not pooping much. What can i do? Only positive thing is he is still very colourful, with the dark striping.



Listed ingredients for API general cure (metronidazole praziquantel) sound decent but is there any indication of amount that is dosed?
What are the dosage/treatment instructions?
Want is tank pH? Temperature? Water hardness?
Are you dosing EI fertilizer?


At this point I’d likely do a quick ich treatment (though from what you’re reporting I’m more inclined to think internal parasites - nonetheless you may see some improvement)
I prefer formalin based meds such as Hikari IchX as one can usually observe an improvement within 60min IF external parasites are a main issue, as eSHa EXIT comes highly recommended, give that a try  - if you don’t see improved activity, reduced respiration rate within 12-24 h, assume this is not treating a primary issue

Med “cleanup” - large water change (I’ll do 50-90% BUT an 80% water change is not unusual for my tanks) followed by good quality activated carbon/charcoal (I use Seachem or a Marine grade carbon)
Remove carbon after 12-24h (I like to do another water change, especially if you’re only doing 25-50% water changes)

And as you’ve done metro/prazi (assuming that the dosage was correct and not too low (unfortunately some aquarium remedies don’t meet “threshold” levels for active ingredients) and active ingredients were stored properly at the distributor and the retailer) I’d choose a different medication for the next round

eSHa ndx is levamisol based and one of the few anthelmintics effecfive against Camallanus (once sufficiently advanced, the typical “red threads” can be observed (often temporarily) extending from the vent)
Levamisol is reasonably well tolerated by most fish species, and fairly effective as a “bath medication”

The “bit” seen in the photo above looks more like shed intestinal lining than any worm (most of which will still be active and possibly quite lively when “hanging out”)

Fish doesn’t look too emaciated so he should recover IF you can sort out the suitable medication
Generally you should observe *some* improvement within 3-5 days
Medicated food is much more efficient than most bath remedies, so if fish begins eating, switch over to this (it’s also better tolerated)

 Note, when medicating, daily water changes are always recommended 

Lovely fish! hopefully you see some improvement


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## alto (17 Feb 2020)

Tim Harrison said:


> It might be what has come to be known as ram disease.


Iridovirus ???

Unfortunately the symptoms appear consistent with Iridovirus, but as parasites are a lot more treatable, I’m voting for them


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## Sammy Islam (17 Feb 2020)

Thanks for the replies, going to head over to LFS and see what meds they have in a bit. 

My temp is 25.5, tank ph 7.9 and is no longer co2 injected or dosed. Just water changes every week as i was getting ready to break down the tank and put the fish into my new scape. 

Regarding the previous general cure treatment, the dosing instructions are 1 sachet per 10gallon (3 in my 30g) then repeat after 48 hours, then water change after another 48 hours. I generally change 70-80% water weekly, but have been doing it daily since i noticed something is up. 

I'll have a look at what meds they have hopefully they have some Esha meds, what about water life octozin? Can i get medicated foods from LFS? I work from home so i will be observing his behaviour and looking out for an improvement. Hopefully he gets better as rams are my favourite and this is the longest a pair have survived.


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## Sammy Islam (17 Feb 2020)

Just been to 2 LFS and both of them had like half of the meds they usually have. They didnt have any eSha products so im going to order them online, will be good to have seeing as you can use them with eachother. 

Luckily i found a bag of fluke solve which has prazi in it, it was the only medication with either prazi or metro availabile. Reading online people have had success with it for what i need to treat for and seems highly concentrated. Also bought some garlic guard to see if i can encourage him to eat. Will keep this updated over the next couple of days and see how things go. 

Thanks


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## Simon Cole (17 Feb 2020)

Go and smell the frozen food - is it off? Every time I fed my rams on frozen food they died within a month. It turned out that the deliveries were defrosting according to LFS staff.


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## Sammy Islam (17 Feb 2020)

I don't buy much at a time, just the mixed blister packs. I usually pick one towards the back of the freezer and they end up in my freezer within 10m. I only bought a new pack last week and fed the bloodworms or red mosquito larvae the other day which the female ate, but the male didn't so i knew something was up with him and have been monitoring since.

This might be a better pic


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## Simon Cole (17 Feb 2020)

It happened before it even reached the shop floor in my case. Sometimes it smells okay. But if it's rank....


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## Sammy Islam (17 Feb 2020)

I'll have a smell next time i feed the frozen food. It may smell, but shouldn't smell rank?

I plan to dose the fluke solve later after a 80% water change. The instructions are a little vague, is it a 24h treatment? After which i should do another water change?


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## Tankless (17 Feb 2020)

Do you keep your rams with shrimp? (Deviating away from the topic at hand)


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## Sammy Islam (17 Feb 2020)

No, only amanos at the moment. But was planning on putting them into my new tank which has 20+ cherrys and is heavily planted.


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## Tankless (17 Feb 2020)

OK, I'll keep an eye on your journal. I'll be looking for that final showpiece fish within the next few months. I've always wanted rams.


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## Sammy Islam (17 Feb 2020)

Cool! I just updated it, first trim 
Rams are the best, but the warm temperatures make everything harder with co2 etc. For me, they never seem to last long, i always drip aclimate them and feed them up, and give them some meds if any issues arise which is bound to happen. These have lasted the longest, and have been very healthy in general so the rapid change in health is worrying.


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## alto (17 Feb 2020)

Based upon a quick literature search, Waterlife Octozin is likely worth a trial (it will impact some known internal parasites (though not helminths)


From Tropical Fish Site
Waterlife Octozin


> The main active ingredient of Octozin is dimetridazole and contains 0.085g per gram.


(this is reported in several places but may have a single source, you might attempt to confirm this is still the case 
One poster reported this as part of an email inquiry with Waterlife)

You’ll need to determine how this value relates to the pill formulation


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## alto (17 Feb 2020)

Treating diseases in fish is complicated, remedies marketed for the aquarium hobbyist don’t help the situation by not clearly listing active ingredients and concentrations when dosed as directed (and often generate their own version of treatment rather than following veterinary text protocols)

Note that Metronidazole and Dimetridazole are NOT alternate names for the same compound (as suggested by quite a few online fish forum posts)

This article is open access
*Diplomonad flagellates of some ornamental fish cultured in Thailand*
Suchanya Mankhakhet1,4, Naraid Suanyuk1, Chutima Tantikitti1*, Wutiporn Phromkunthong1, Suphada Kiriratnikom2, Theerawoot Lerssutthichawal3 and Boonkob Viriyapongsutee1

While Diplomonad flagellates were identified in angelfish, oscars and mbuna (sorry no rams in study but they often share high coincidence with angelfish), only those isolated from angelfish were able to be grown under culture, so data is based upon that group



> *2.10 In vivo treatment of spironucleosis in angelfish*
> 
> Dimetridazole was chosen for treatment of spironucleosis in angelfish because of its effectiveness in inhibiting parasite growth in vitro study.
> Infected angelfish collected from ornamental fish farm were used in this study.
> ...


The article is worth reading in its entirety 





> Metronidazole was not effective for treatment of C iubilans, but bath treatments with dimetridazole (80 mg/L for 24 hours, repeated daily for 3 days) or 2-amino-5-nitrothiazol (10 mg/L for 24 hours, repeated daily for 3 days) may be useful in decreasing the prevalence of infestation.


(Sorry forgot to include the link, thIs was also picked up through Science Direct)

From  Gastrointestinal Protozoal Parasites



> *Acute General Treatment*
> *Husbandry*
> Correcting environmental abnormalities and removing stressors (poor water quality) is a critical step in decreasing morbidity/mortality and preventing disease.
> 
> ...




(Chapter preview via Science Direct so limited access)


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## alto (17 Feb 2020)

Note that as 5-nitroimadazole compounds, both Dimetridazole and Metronidazole are photosensitive and more stable at acidic pH 
(So keep the lights off, maybe add dark paper to tank back and sides if there is considerable ambient light, eg sunlight or bright room light illuminating tank; obviously you can brighten the tank for water changes etc)

Assuming your tap water is hard and alkaline (re pH 7.9), you might consider moving the male ram to a hospital tank and adding in RO water - do this gradually so as not to stress an already ill fish

Levamisol is also more effective in softer, more neutral water (IIRC suggested range is ~ pH 6 - pH 7.4)


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## alto (17 Feb 2020)

Sammy Islam said:


> Can i get medicated foods from LFS?


I prefer to make up my own medicated foods 
Seachem Focus is indispensable when making medicated food as it binds the active ingredient to the food (I choose frozen bloodworms or brine shrimp as my fish consider these the most palatable foods - almost all medications will reduce food palatability) and retains this link for some time under aquarium conditions (sorry I don’t recall the specifics but decent over the 10-20min I expect fish to consume the medicated food, without a binding agent, most medications release very quickly under aquarium conditions)

Open the Directions subsection 

- note my fish didn’t care for Garlic Guard or Entice (so I no longer use these)
- some fish were fine with stored or frozen medicated foods, others much preferred the freshly prepared versions and very few significantly ill fish will consume sufficient food within the 1minute guideline (so often used when feeding fish)
- some medications are much less palatable than others, eg if treating Altum angels, I could soak metronidazole~food up to 60 minutes, but levamisole (crystalline pharmaceutical grade levamisole HCl)~food was DIRT if I forgot and allowed it to soak for 60 min (10min was acceptable, 20min was almost edible)

I found Hikari freeze dried foods to be very refractive to my soaking attempts, most commercial pellet foods were either equally resistant or became mush (and it’s often difficult to convince a sick fish to eat sufficient amounts of unfamiliar foods), Hikari frozen foods were voted most palatable (& thus effective) by the fish

As there are more (& more) restraints on obtaining medications for ornamental fish, but fish farms continue to have significant disease issues, it’s a pretty dim future for hobbyist fish that become ill
While maintaining optimum water quality will always benefit fish, some diseases will continue to overwhelm individual fish
I recommend quarantine tanks for any new purchases, and hospital tanks for any fish that show signs of illness - if you can “catch” first symptoms (eg accelerated respiration in ich infected fish) rather than infestation (visible white spots on ich infected fish), recovery chances are much better


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## Sammy Islam (18 Feb 2020)

Thanks for the very informative and quick replies! Really appreciated it! Will monitor over the next couple of days after the prazi treatment, and have ordered eSha ndx and octazin. Really don't like using loads of courses of meds, but i have to try and save him!


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## Sammy Islam (19 Feb 2020)

He died  couldn't see him earlier all day so i had to remove stuff from the tank to find the body! The female is still doing good so will just keep an eye on her.


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## alto (20 Feb 2020)

So sorry to read this

While it’s possible that using some of the suggested remedies sooner, may have helped, there’s really no way to predict
(I suggest having the levamisole eSHa ndx as part of your fish medical kit, just store everything in a cool dark place, while some medications store well in the freezer, others begin to breakdown from the moisture)

When I observe a fish with signs of illness - often the first symptoms are reduced activity, especially a reluctance to be  up front and forward (except this behaviour can also develop for other various reasons ... which is the issue when determining fish health, ie, most observed “symptoms” may have several explanations) - I begin with a white spot treatment (which usually treats a number of external parasites, ich just being the most common)
If there’s is no improvement after 2-3 daily doses (preceded by 70-80% water change), then move on to a different type of disease possibility

If fish has a food response, but is then reluctant to eat, internal parasites (various sorts) is a likely guess
Metronidazole, Praziquantel, Fenbedazoles, Levamisole are all contenders - some knowledge of “most likely” species pathogens is a helpful guide in choosing which medication to start with

Fish with internal bacterial infections are usually advanced before fish begin to refuse food - at this stage it may sometimes be kinder just to euthanize, rather than playing the guessing game, as recovery via bath medication (at this late stage) is unlikely. It is further unlikely that randomly guessed antibacterials will be effective.
(Most of the broad spectrum antibacterials have limited efficacy as baths, even when the particular pathogen is one that responds to bath medication)

Fish with viral or Iridovirus infections are generally terminal - supportive care, minimal stress environment is the “treatment” ..... and very occasionally, a fish may recover

The rapid respiration, stillness, lack of food response, brilliant colors is observed in M ramirezi with Iridovirus (which is rarely transmitted to other fish species in the community tank, especially when optimum water quality etc are maintained)
If the female ram is from the same source as the male, it’s more likely she may also develop the condition
As it’s not treatable with any hobbyist available medications, I would not subject her to any sort of treatments, just maintain great water quality, good care & feeding

As M ramirezi is not a long lived fish, even wild caught fish kept in excellent conditions: it’s recommended to purchase obviously juvenile fish. Most commercial bred fish will live 1-3 years, inbred fish such as the balloon form, extreme long fin form, hormone treated fish will seldom make the 2-3 year mark


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## Sammy Islam (20 Feb 2020)

Thanks you, this is very helpful. I've got the meds in my stash now so i am definitely more prepared if anything happens in the future.


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## alto (20 Feb 2020)

Sammy Islam said:


> tank ph 7.9


If you’re keen on M ramirezi, I’d suggest setting up a tank with softer, more acidic water, especially if you’re interested in breeding (you’ll want to culture suitable live foods for the fry )


In case you missed Green Pekoe Pond
- one of my favorite journals, especially with the ram pair (with brood in link)


Seriously Fish M ramirezi species profile


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## dw1305 (6 Dec 2021)

Hi all,


mrsajun05 said:


> I suggest you use a water conditioner to control this parasite.


What exactly do you mean by "water conditioner"? I'd recommend <"Fenbendazole"> for control of some "pests", but I'm not sure it works against _Camallanus, <"_Levamisole HCl"> does.

Unfortunately the OP's fish died.

cheers Darrel


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