# Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosing?



## Nat N (14 Feb 2012)

Hi all,
I currently use Potassium Bicarbonate as a KH adjuster of tap water for my aquariums - raising the KH and adding Potassium at the same time. I need to dose some Phosphate. Is there any risk of overdosing if using Potassium Phosphate and Potassium Bicarbonate at the same time? Is there such a thing at all as Potassium overdosing? I need to raise the KH by 2 points (from 3 to 5 German degrees) and would like to have about 1 PPM more of Phosphate (currently 0.5 PPM to zero in my tap water)...


----------



## ceg4048 (15 Feb 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*

Hi,
    I'll assume you have some special reason for raising the KH, because 3 is as good as 5 for plants. In any case, add as much of these salts as you want without fear.

Cheers,


----------



## Nat N (15 Feb 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*

Thanks very much!
The reason of raising the KH is paranoia of PH crashes... I am a female after all and can be forgiven for "girlies fears"...   Seriously speaking, my tap water is not that stable as I would like it to be and rather than testing it every time in case the KH is lower than 2, I add Potassium Bicarbonate. As you cleared the fears I got from other internet sources on overdosing Potassium, I am off shopping - for Potassium Phosphate that is!


----------



## ceg4048 (15 Feb 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*

Hi,
    I think you should actually try and crash your pH just to come to terms with your fears. By the way, what exactly is supposed to happen if your pH crashes? No one has ever explained this. Do all the fish die? This is another curious tale I wish I knew the origin of...

Cheers,


----------



## gmartins (16 Feb 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*

My tap is amongst the softest you can find with virtually no gH or kH. When I tested this (a few years back) they were all 1. In addition, I use amazonia which is supposed to lower kH and pH and I inject lots of CO2 which also lowers pH. I haven't tested my pH in a while but I can garantee you that all my plants and animals are just fine! Just make sure you pick soft-water fauna (e.g. tetras, rasboras, etc...).

cheers,

GM


----------



## Nat N (16 Feb 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*

Hi all,
Thanks for the replies. Hmmm... this really made me thinking: my fears of PH crashes... I have read horror stories about fish suffocating and plants melting... but are these really true but not somewhat exaggerated?... Maybe crashing the PH on purpose is what I need to do?
If you read Walstad’s book, she states that soft water plants actually thrive in “hard” water whereas the hard water ones perish in soft water... I have a nice little jungle of Vallis Nana in one of the tanks and this plant definitely does better if the KH stays at a certain level... 
I do not keep any “hard water” fish and do tend to like “softies” most. My tap GH is about 7 and I use de-ionized water to top up evaporation to keep everything more or less at the same level. I suspect my tap water does not have any Potassium hence adding Potassium Bicarbonate seems to be beneficial. The tap water used to have ample supply of Phosphates but this suddenly changed (another water source?) so Phosphates are now a deficiency.
So, I did go shopping yesterday and waiting for the delivery now....
Gmartins, as a matter of curiousity – if you happen to be in the mood to test your water, I would love to know the results!


----------



## ceg4048 (17 Feb 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*

Yes there are lots of exagerations, but mostly there are illogical or irrational conclusions drawn from circumstantial evidence. Most people don't even know what pH is. I mean, have you actually thought about what pH is actually a measure of? It's just a ratio of one ion to another. In fact pH can be an acronym for "percent of Hydrogen ion (H+)". Low pH means high concentration of H+, and this can only happen if acids are added to the water.

In a tank acids are produced just from the breakdown of waste products. If you clean you tank regularly then this waste is removed, but even if you don't the acidic level of the water can't just all of a sudden fall off a cliff unless you dump acid in the tank yourself.

Most of the fish we keep are from highlky acidic waters like The Amazon River Basin where the pH of some streams can fall to 2 or 3. So even if there was suddenly a crash these fish would not be affected in the way it's claimed.

Here is an example of a tank where the KH was kept at 2 and the pH kept at about 3 with a combination of RO water and CO2 injection (The Apistogramma in the middle was breeding in the tank.):






There was no crashing or melting or any of that. Flora and fauna just carried on. This does not mean that plants never melt or that fish never suffocate, but when they do, it's not because of pH crashing. Plants melting occurs when they are starved of CO2. Fish suffocation happens when there is too much CO2. But we have not had a very accurate way of knowing the CO2 levels in our tanks - not unless we spend thousands of pounds buying scientific equipment to measure it, so people don't really know what the CO2 levels are and since they cannot measure it they attribute all the faults they observe to something that they _can_ measure. This is like losing you purse while walking down a dark alley and then looking for the purse on the High Street because there's more light on that street than in the alley. Doing that, you'll never find your purse and you'll never solve the problems in your tank by blaming everything on pH.

In any case, there's nothing wrong with buffering your water some more with bicarbonate. It's not really a big deal and it does no harm. It's the misunderstanding that does the harm.

There are really not that many plants which really need to be in soft water - only a handful, really and the some of these do OK in hard water (I haven't tried all of them). On the other hand, soft water is not what does damage to the so called hard water plants. The reason that some plants don't do well in soft water has to do more with the nutrient levels which are typically kept low by those who want to maintain the low TDS. So again, cause and effect gets confused because the softness gets blamed when the real culprit is nutrient deficiency, which you have noted with your Phosphate situation. Vallis is grown at many different KH values, however, in non-CO2 tanks, when the CO2 drops below some threshold value this plant is able to use bicarbonate to produce CO2. In a CO2 injected tank Vallis does not care about the KH because there is plenty of CO2.

The most important items in a planted tank are CO2, nutrients and avoidance of dibilitating excess of lighting. These have the biggest impact and pH/KH/GH has relatively minor impact.

Cheers,


----------



## Ady34 (17 Feb 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> On the other hand, soft water is not what does damage to the so called hard water plants. The reason that some plants don't do well in soft water has to do more with the nutrient levels which are typically kept low by those who want to maintain the low TDS. So again, cause and effect gets confused because the softness gets blamed when the real culprit is nutrient deficiency, which you have noted with your Phosphate situation. Vallis is grown at many different KH values, however, in non-CO2 tanks, when the CO2 drops below some threshold value this plant is able to use bicarbonate to produce CO2. In a CO2 injected tank Vallis does not care about the KH because there is plenty of CO2.
> 
> The most important items in a planted tank are CO2, nutrients and avoidance of dibilitating excess of lighting. These have the biggest impact and pH/KH/GH has relatively minor impact.



Hi Ceg,
its finally sinking in for me about all these water perameters and there relative unimportance. Ive constantly battled low gh and kh and the penny has finally dropped that its all about nutrients, c02, distribution and good tank maintenance. Learning the fundamentals of nutrients and that low gh may have deficiencies of Mg and Ca which is more of an issue than the gh reading itself is the key. It doesnt matter what the gh or kh readings are if youre providing adequately for the plants needs with ferts and c02.
With reference to this are you more of an advocate of the EI dosing method to ensure all the nutrient demands are met and would you suggest that this method may be better for softer water set ups in particular which are possibly more likely to suffer mineral deficiencies. I only ask as im currently using tpn+ and have recently also began dosing Mg Ca and K mineral salts to increase there availability to the plants (due to some issues encountered), would ei provide the levels of all nutrients needed without the need for additional minerals, or to some degree is there always a need to add extras? 
Cheerio,
Ady.


----------



## ceg4048 (17 Feb 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*



			
				Ady34 said:
			
		

> ..It doesnt matter what the gh or kh readings are if youre providing adequately for the plants needs with ferts and c02...


Yes, exactly. Even if a plant does have some parameter preference it just means that you may need to provide it with a little more nutrition and a little more CO2 to overcome the inefficiency caused by being outside of the preferred range. There really are only a few plants out of the 300+ varieties that are stubborn and which absolutely demand that you stay within a specific range.



			
				Ady34 said:
			
		

> ...With reference to this are you more of an advocate of the EI dosing method to ensure all the nutrient demands are met...


 Yes this is THE Prime Directive of EI.




			
				Ady34 said:
			
		

> ...and would you suggest that this method may be better for softer water set ups in particular which are possibly more likely to suffer mineral deficiencies...


Well, the people who are hypnotized into think that only soft water can be used for plants are coincidentally also often under the impression that nutrients in the water column cause algae. There are a lot of myths built upon myths, so there is a psychological and sociological component at work as well. The most important nutrients are Carbon, Nitrogen, Phosphorous and Potassium in that order. These are called "macronutrients" , "macro" referring to large scale and in this sense meaning that the plant needs large quantities of these elements. And these components can be poorly available in hard water as well as in soft water, especially if the hobbyist uses a lot of light, which increases the demand for these nutrients, or if flow and distribution of water in the tank is not delivering these nutrients at a fast enough rate to sustain their food production and health. So it's not that EI has a greater relevance for soft water versus hard water because there are many ways for a plant to starve, regardless of the water type. What is typically true about soft water though, as we discussed earlier, is that the "micronutrient" levels in soft water are typically absent (or are at a concentration level below the required threshold); Iron, Calcium, Magnesium, Manganese, Zinc, Copper and so forth.

Because the availability of macronutrients is much more important, and is more of an imperative, the EI dosing scheme has special emphasis on the macronutrients NPK, but micronutrients are not ignored, just that the quantities of dosed micronutrients are a lot smaller - because they don't need to be available in large quantities as the macros do. EI does not address Calcium or Magnesium because of the wide variety of water types available, so as a community we agree that these salts can be added to suit. Ca/Mg dosing is therefore an adjunct to the EI dosing program, i.e. add these if you need them for soft or otherwise deficient water, and leave them out if the water supply is enriched with Ca/Mg.
Check the Tutorial section of the forum for the article discussing EI in more detail.

By the way, TPN+ contains Mg. In any case, as I mentioned, because water types vary so much across the world EI focuses on the issues common to all hobyyists, especially the ones who are paranoid about NO3 and PO4. Because there are many things that can go wrong in the tank EI eliminates macronutrient and micronutrient deficiency as a possible cause of poor health. One still needs to address flow/distribution/Ca/Mg, lighting, CO2 techniques as well as maintenance and cleaning, which are all just as important and can all be sources of failed plant health.

Cheers,


----------



## gmartins (17 Feb 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*



			
				Nat N said:
			
		

> Gmartins, as a matter of curiousity – if you happen to be in the mood to test your water, I would love to know the results!



I would but... I have never bought them again after they finished. I have not a single test at home at the moment.
I do have a drop checker solution though which is a pH test. Can I use this to test my water? Does the amount of water sample influence the reading? What about the colour scale?

cheers,


----------



## ceg4048 (17 Feb 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*

Yes, you can use it because as you mentioned, it's exactly the same test reagent as found in the regular pH test kits. If you're using a CO2 injector with a solenoid though your readings will depend on what time of day you measure the tank water pH. The scale should be identical and the amount of test water if it's too much will make the sample paler. Just use the same amount of water that you would use in the drop checker, a couple of ml is all...

Cheers,


----------



## gmartins (17 Feb 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*

cheers Ceg. I do have a solenoid so... I suppose that if I take my sample just prior to lights on this corresponds to the time of the day when pH is lowest right?


----------



## ceg4048 (17 Feb 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*

No, at that time it's at it's highest mate. CO2 acidifies the water thereby driving the pH down. The pH might be at it's lowest just before the solenoid turns the gas off. 

Actually, thinking about it some more, it would be more accurate to simply take a sample of water, at any time, and just let it sit for 1 hour to allow whatever CO2 is dissolved in it to outgas. This is what you do when you want to find out what the natural pH of your tap water is, so the same works for tank water.

Cheers,


----------



## Nat N (17 Feb 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*

Hi everybody,
Ceg, thanks very much. I know what you mean about misconceptions and “old wives tales” an totally agree with you. I think there is a lot of information/opinions around which are fundamentally wrong as they mix up principles of keeping planted and fish only tanks. These are being circulated, repeated and sometimes grow to enormous proportions. I feel I am a victim of reading too much of “rubbish” myself. I know one person on one of the beginners forum. This person has a university degree in chemistry, has been keeping fish for over 10 years and is a sort of a “guru” for novices on that forum. I understand that the advice given by that person is sometimes invaluable for those who just started but some of the recommendations are simply... how would I put it... daft... And that will be carried around in circles over and over again, unfortunately. 
I understand what PH is and the thing what got me confused is the fact that acidic conditions increase the toxicity of metals in water, push down oxygen levels and allegedly make an overdose of anything to be more dangerous. (Am I right or am I confusing myself even further?). Walstad describes an experiment with Val Americana being grown in soft and hard water. According to this experiment, the Val completely deteriorated and eventually died in acidic conditions. Walstad states that Val is one of the plants which prefers uptake of carbon from bicarbonates to uptake from CO2. I noticed myself that adding CO2 makes it growing slower and producing smaller leaves in comparison with non-CO2 conditions where the plant can take up carbon from bicarbonates. However, this may be purely the lack of something else (I am suspecting Phosphates). Hence I wanted to start dosing Phosphates to check if that was the reason. I have 7 tanks (most of them can be classed as nanos or medium sized) – all with different conditions and substrates. The Val Nana is doing great in a 35 litre tank with no CO2 and the Val Americana in a different tank has significantly slowed down after I added CO2 (it is the same tank where Pogostemon Stellata is doing rather well – I am starting to understand what people mean by calling it a “weed”). 
As I am thinking over a project of a not biotope but true to a certain locality tank, I discovered that collecting endemic or native plants in one tank may be tricky. I want to create an aesthetically pleasing effect as well, so I am trying to put together plants from the same place but not necessarily from the same river/lake/swamp. This creates a certain challenge as I have to develop a routine/conditions which cater for all of them equally. Hence I am trying to balance between reasonable KH and CO2 injections in one of the tanks where I gradually collect those plants (and the fish from the same locality). I am also trying to develop a routine which is somewhere in between of low-tech and high-tech approach as I work full time and really would prefer to spend more time admiring the tanks than doing maintenance all the time in those very few spare hours I’ve got! 
It will be a long learning path – and thanks for clearing some of the things for me.


----------



## gmartins (19 Feb 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*

ok just for the record - I've measured pH over a full cycle and it ranged between 6.8 (in the morning) and 6.0 (during the  lights on).


----------



## ceg4048 (20 Feb 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*



			
				gmartins said:
			
		

> ok just for the record - I've measured pH over a full cycle and it ranged between 6.8 (in the morning) and 6.0 (during the lights on).


So using the calculation [Molarity of H+ ions] = (10)**(-pH)
at a pH of 6.8 the concentration of H+ in the water is 0.00000016 moles per liter
at a pH of 6    the concentration of H+ in the water is 0.000001     moles per liter

Therefore, dropping the pH from 6.8 to 6 causes a 562% increase in the concentration of H+

In order to crash the pH from a value of 6 to say a value of 2 you would need to increase the molar concentration of H+ by an additional 999,990% - that's almost 1 million percent. Even at a KH of nearly zero there is nothing in that tank that can produce that amount of H+.
Unless you dump pool acid in the tank, it will never happen. Can you see how crazy the idea of a pH crash is?



			
				Nat N said:
			
		

> ...I understand what PH is and the thing what got me confused is the fact that acidic conditions increase the toxicity of metals in water, push down oxygen levels and allegedly make an overdose of anything to be more dangerous. (Am I right or am I confusing myself even further?)...


I think you're confusing yourself further because the toxicity we are talking about doesn't apply in our tanks. It also depends on what metal we are talking about. For example, Iron, Fe, which is an important micronutrient typically exists in two forms Fe++ (Ferrous) and Fe+++ (Ferric). Ferric Iron compounds have a very low solubility, but as the pH is lowered, the Ferric converts to Ferrous which has a high solubility. So acidity actually helps the plant to uptake Fe, whereas at a higher pH the probability of Iron deficiency is more prevalent. On the other hand, the metal Molybdenum (Mo) which is also a very important micronutrient, has a higher solubility at higher pH, so acid conditions lower the availability of this metal.



			
				Nat N said:
			
		

> ...Ihave 7 tanks (most of them can be classed as nanos or medium sized) – all with different conditions and substrates. The Val Nana is doing great in a 35 litre tank with no CO2 and the Val Americana in a different tank has significantly slowed down after I added CO2 (it is the same tank where Pogostemon Stellata is doing rather well – I am starting to understand what people mean by calling it a “weed”).


But other people grow Vallis fantastically with added CO2 so this cannot be true. There are lots of reasons for the Val in the CO2 tank to have a lower performance, and this may have nothing to do with CO2. In fact it may even be a result of not enough CO2 at the location where the Val is. One of the errors we consistently make is that we assume that we have control of the tank environment, when in fact we have very little control. Plants only can use CO2 in their food production chain. Therefore HCO3 has to be converted to CO2 internally before the plant can use it, therefore it cannot be that HCO3 is a preferred method of carbon uptake. It may be that Val is better than most at using HCO3 however.



			
				Nat N said:
			
		

> ...I am trying to put together plants from the same place but not necessarily from the same river/lake/swamp. This creates a certain challenge as I have to develop a routine/conditions which cater for all of them equally. Hence I am trying to balance between reasonable KH and CO2 injections in one of the tanks where I gradually collect those plants (and the fish from the same locality).


Again, this approach causes more problems than it solves because there really is no need to cater to specific parameters. The plants and fish are highly adaptable. If you concentrate on the things that actually matter, such as good nutrition, good flow and flow distribution, and if you limit the energy of the light, then flora and fauna will make the adaptations. 

Cheers,


----------



## Nat N (21 Feb 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*

Hi Ceg,
It’s Clive isn’t it? I did a bit of reading around...
Thanks very much for the reply. For a person with a patchy knowledge like me it is sometimes what puts the final bit into a puzzle but sometimes causes more questions...


> So using the calculation [Molarity of H+ ions] = (10)**(-pH)
> at a pH of 6.8 the concentration of H+ in the water is 0.00000016 moles per liter
> at a pH of 6 the concentration of H+ in the water is 0.000001 moles per liter
> 
> ...


This is pretty much self explanatory and very obviously convincing – thanks.

I have read some opinions – like this:
Quote:
<<<The nitrifying bacteria which oxidise ammonia in to nitrate use 4.8 grams of oxygen is used, 7.14 grams of calcium carbonate (or other carbonates) for every gram of ammonia converted in to nitrate. 
The oxygen replenishes itself at the water surface but the carbonates have to be replenished by either water changes or by adding buffers to the water. It is the carbonates which hold the pH stable, so as the carbonates become depleted the pH will begin to fall. If you get to a point where the carbonates are completely depleted the pH will crash and biological filtration will stop.>>>
Unquote.
I suppose, this is not relevant/true for planted aquariums for many reason (production of oxygen by plants and a much smaller contribution of bacteria into the general balance e.g. uptake of ammonia by plants, etc. etc...)
This is from another forum – you see why I keep on getting all confused? To be honest, I am not sure I need to buffer the KH in my tanks any more – the Potassium will be added by dosing Potassium Phosphate anyway. 


> I think you're confusing yourself further because the toxicity we are talking about doesn't apply in our tanks. It also depends on what metal we are talking about. For example, Iron, Fe, which is an important micronutrient typically exists in two forms Fe++ (Ferrous) and Fe+++ (Ferric). Ferric Iron compounds have a very low solubility, but as the pH is lowered, the Ferric converts to Ferrous which has a high solubility. So acidity actually helps the plant to uptake Fe, whereas at a higher pH the probability of Iron deficiency is more prevalent. On the other hand, the metal Molybdenum (Mo) which is also a very important micronutrient, has a higher solubility at higher pH, so acid conditions lower the availability of this metal.


Walstad  highlights  an example of somebody trying to combat Phosphates in their tank by adding FECl3. They reported what they thought was signs of Phosphate deficiency which she promptly dismissed as Iron toxicity in plants. According to her, such thing as toxic destructive levels of Iron can happen... (page 13 of her book). She also states that chlorosis and Iron deficiency in plants can be caused by excess of Copper, Manganese and Zinc (the same page). She does, however, state that PH between 6 and 8 is “safe” in respect of metal toxicity...
I seem to quote and refer to Walstad’s book an awful lot. It is not because I completely agree or take her findings as an ultimate guideline. I deeply respect her and wish that Tom Barr would write a book as well – it will be some other very valuable opinion to take in, re-work and use depending on individual preferences, goals and conditions. I do not want to go Walstad’s El Naturel approach but find some of the things she explains very valuable and a food for thought. 


> Again, this approach causes more problems than it solves because there really is no need to cater to specific parameters. The plants and fish are highly adaptable. If you concentrate on the things that actually matter, such as good nutrition, good flow and flow distribution, and if you limit the energy of the light, then flora and fauna will make the adaptations.


Yep, I think I have only to agree with you. I apply this method to terrestrial plants which I grow quite successfully so should really apply the same to the aquatics without complicating my routine.

I started dosing Potassium Phosphate and will see what happens. 

By the way, Gmartins report on the PH fluctuating from 6 to 6.8 – is it not quite a lot of difference? Some people use solenoids to switch the CO2 supply off at dark time. I have not got one yet but probably it is a good idea – economy and plus more stable CO2 level?


----------



## ceg4048 (22 Feb 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*



			
				Nat N said:
			
		

> I have read some opinions – like this:
> Quote:
> <<<The nitrifying bacteria which oxidise ammonia in to nitrate use 4.8 grams of oxygen is used, 7.14 grams of calcium carbonate (or other carbonates) for every gram of ammonia converted in to nitrate.
> The oxygen replenishes itself at the water surface but the carbonates have to be replenished by either water changes or by adding buffers to the water. It is the carbonates which hold the pH stable, so as the carbonates become depleted the pH will begin to fall. If you get to a point where the carbonates are completely depleted the pH will crash and biological filtration will stop.>>>
> ...


Well, there are so many processes going on that, as you mentioned, effects of some processes cancel the effects of others.
Here is a typical 1st stage aerobic bacterial nitrification equation:
(NH4+) + 1.5(O2) ----> (NO2-) + 2(H+) + (H2O)

The 2nd stage looks something like this:
(NO2-) + 0.5(O2) -----> (NO3-)

Now, really, lets forget about calcium carbonate for a second, because it's clear from these equations that because these are aerobic, a lot of Oxygen is being used to convert Ammonia to Nitrate. Lack of Oxygen kills a lot of fish in tanks so if there was a pH crash (which we know is unlikely) and if these bacteria decided to stop nitrification due to low pH, the plants will absorb the ammonia, and will do so without adversely affecting the Oxygen levels. Isn't this a good thing? Who cares if pH drops and Nitrosomas /Nitrobacter decide to take a vacation as a result? In any case, a pH of 6 does not mean that these microbes stop functioning. It just means that they don't nitrify as much as if the pH were at 8.0. Also, ammonia is less toxic as the pH falls because it converts to a higher ratio of NH4+ - so lowering the pH does more good things than bad things. I don't really see a problem here. Higher Oxygen due to direct plant uptake of ammonia/ammonium (plus extra Oxygen expulsion from photosynthesis), better plant health, lower toxicity of any ammonia/ammonium that is not immediately taken by the plants. I can't see why this is even an issue.



			
				Nat N said:
			
		

> Walstad  highlights  an example of somebody trying to combat Phosphates in their tank by adding FECl3. They reported what they thought was signs of Phosphate deficiency which she promptly dismissed as Iron toxicity in plants. According to her, such thing as toxic destructive levels of Iron can happen... (page 13 of her book). She also states that chlorosis and Iron deficiency in plants can be caused by excess of Copper, Manganese and Zinc (the same page). She does, however, state that PH between 6 and 8 is “safe” in respect of metal toxicity...


Well, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I've doses massive amounts of metal micronutrients in my tanks and I have never seen metal toxicity in plants at any pH - and I'm generally considered to be an extremist as regards dosing. I probably dose higher quantities of nutrients than anyone else in the known world (or at least I'm in the top 10, I reckon). I can't recall who it was, but I was embroiled in a bitter argument with one of those lean dosing acolytes, and they referred to me as "The High Priest of Nutrient/CO2" because I kept telling people to "add more", "add more" of everything.

Here is a tank dosed with 3-4X the EI suggested macronutrient levels, 6X the EI micronutrient levels (3ppm Fe) and enough CO2 to drive the tank water down to a pH of around 5 (although, this is not quite the same as your conditions because the KH and GH were high). I did this specifically to test the theory of low pH and nutrient toxicity. I failed to induce any form of toxicity in any plant doing this. It is possible that the toxicity issues arise if the plant is in an emmersed state and not submersed. There is no "practical" limit to the amounts of metal micronutrient you can add or practical lower limit to the pH in which you can grow excellent plants in. What's more important is that you feed ample levels of nutrients, have excellent CO2 without damaging your fish, have good flow energy, to distribute that flow properly, to not go crazy with lighting and to keep the tank spotlessly clean via frequent and massive water changes. These are enough things to worry about, believe me. You don't need to worry about all that other stuff. It's all good to know, but ultimately it's irrelevant. The more you worry about things that don't matter, the more trouble you'll have.




Here I lowered the CO2 injection to allow more fish. This caused the pH to rise to a minimum daytime level of about 6. But remember that it isn't the fact that the ph rose that allows the fish thrive, it's the fact that the CO2 toxicity level was reduced. The net effect was a rise in the pH. So this highlights the second and perhaps more important point that when we measure the waters pH it's necessary to understand WHY the pH is at it's value. It's the thing in the water that causes the pH to rise or fall that is important, not the actual pH value itself. I think that's what people completely disregard when analyzing these parameters. It's this poor analysis that often renders the parameters useless.







			
				Nat N said:
			
		

> By the way, Gmartins report on the PH fluctuating from 6 to 6.8 – is it not quite a lot of difference? Some people use solenoids to switch the CO2 supply off at dark time. I have not got one yet but probably it is a good idea – economy and plus more stable CO2 level?


Yes, you are absolutely right. This is a humongous difference. It's a 6X increase in acidity and I'd even go as far as to say that Gmartins would do even better to have pH fluctuation of at least 10X instead of 6X. Neither his fish nor his plants care about this and that's what we are trying to get through to people - to forget about pH stability because you will not see any practical benefits to maintaining a stable pH. This adds no value whatsoever unless you are breeding fish.

Cheers,


----------



## bigmel (23 Feb 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Hi,
> I think you should actually try and crash your pH just to come to terms with your fears. By the way, what exactly is supposed to happen if your pH crashes? No one has ever explained this. Do all the fish die? This is another curious tale I wish I knew the origin of...
> 
> Cheers,




Hi mate 

Ph crashes are very real in areas of  soft water with koi pond owners, although i have never come across this keeping tropicals due to regular water changes i have had a few near miss,s on my koi pond .  Due to the heavy feeding the bacteria use up the kh very quickly and i buffer regulary with bicarb .

I hardly bothered checking my ph on indoor tanks for over 20 years with no problems ,but  my ph can drop like a stone on a 500 gallon indoor  pond and outside 2700 gallon with heavy feeding .

Theres some info here ...http://www.mankysanke.co.uk/html/questi ... wered.html

The link is koi pond related , and i  feed  1/4 kilo a day in summer and this causes the kh to get used up very quickly and my kh is only 1 from the tap so i have to buffer to 4 in the pond but still it drops quickly even with water changes .

I doubt this would concern the average aquaruim keeper who does regular water changes and feeds tiny tetra, shrimp etc but  a tank with a low kh ,over stocked with big trops and over fed with neglected water changes and it could happen ?

Just thinking out loud i,m here to learn


----------



## roadmaster (24 Feb 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*

With EI dosing scheme,GH booster/equilibrium,50 % weekly water changes, used in many planted tanks, I'm not sure pH crash could happen, unless you also remove that which buffers the water,stop water changes, or drive it down with CO2 No?
Plant's and fishes may not feel pH, but I believe both would be affected to varying degrees with lack,or excess of dissolved minerals that influence dh,KH no?


----------



## plantbrain (24 Feb 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*

I've yet to have seen this mythical pH crash, been in the planted CO2 enrichment for about 2 decades now. 
Pixie dust, I say.

Regarding Vals, they are pretty cool plants, they actually can do something like CAM and bicarbonate uptake on the lower portion of the leaf, and on the SAME leaf, take up CO2 as well on a different part.



CO2 enrichment effects:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 135.x/full

Sediment based CO2 uptake(supports DW's contentions):

http://aob.oxfordjournals.org/content/103/7/1015.full
http://www.bio-web.dk/ole_pedersen/pdf/ ... p24-35.pdf

This is a good interesting paper
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 599.x/full
http://resources.metapress.com/pdf-prev ... ze=largest


----------



## ceg4048 (24 Feb 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*



			
				bigmel said:
			
		

> Hi mate
> 
> Ph crashes are very real in areas of  soft water with koi pond owners, although i have never come across this keeping tropicals due to regular water changes i have had a few near miss,s on my koi pond .  Due to the heavy feeding the bacteria use up the kh very quickly and i buffer regulary with bicarb .
> 
> ...


Hi bigmel,
Well, the thing is that I'm always suspicious of these reports because you really don't know what was going on, what the hobbyist had been doing to his tank, and the symptoms have been interpreted. As a result, it's almost impossible to untangle cause and effect because there are so many things going on simultaneously when we are talking about pollution and it's impact on fish.

Now, I don't really know anything about Koi or even ponds in general other than to know that pond keepers are even more paranoid about Nitrate than aquarium keepers. And then there are some basic physiological facts that should be valid for most or all kinds of fish. The question asked on that page was:


> My pH is 4.7, ammonia 4 mg/L, nitrite 0.05 mg/L (the pond is 16oC) what has happened?


We really don't know the whole story. Is this a FAQ type question that is a compendium of all the similar questions that were asked, or was it a specific question by an individual? Because we don't know, we therefore don't know specific conditions making it difficult to analyze.

Here is a statement in that response that is really only half true:


> ...The bugs in the bio-filter use about seven times as much carbonate from the pond water as they do ammonia when they turn ammonia, first into nitrite, then into nitrate, and they cannot remove ammonia from pond water without carbonate....


Nitrosomonas/Nitrobacter are "Chemoautotrophs" which means that they make their own food using primarily CO2. They can also use carbohydrates and they can convert Carbonates to CO2. We do not know the CO2 level or the level of carbohydrates in the pond in question so it's not very clear what the status of the bacteria are. Of course the low pH does inhibit nitrification, but again, there are plenty of examples of soft low pH environments, particularly in the Amazon basin which routinely become acidic after rainfall dissolves tannins from the leaf litter, causing the streams to turn brown. This is where your tetras and chiclids come from, so it's difficult for me to buy into "acidity is problematic."  As I've mentioned, I've kept tanks at very low KH/pH with very little problems. As you've mentioned, with all the water changing and CO2 injecting and so forth that we do there is a zero chance of reproducing the conditions in a Koi pond.

Here is another item I'm skeptical about:


> ...The pH is the first priority.  At pH 4.7 the koi would be suffering from acidosis, (extreme acidity of the blood caused by the low pond pH), and the low pond pH would also be causing severe gill, and internal organ damage. If the pH was slightly lower, they would be beyond the survivable limit...


If you put a strong acid in the water such as HCl or H2SO4, the toxicity of these substances can be lethal due to the damaged caused to gill membranes. It's very unlikely though that the H+ ion concentration from the water will find it's way into the fish's bloodstream. Blood acidosis, is triggered by CO2 in the bloodstream, so this can only happen if CO2 is being dosed. It may be that for Koi, low pH causes some sort of electrolyte migration or deficiency, but as far as i know, low pH water is not a cause of blood acidosis.

You mentioned that you had a "close call". Can you clarify what the conditions were and what symptoms the fish were exhibiting?



			
				plantbrain said:
			
		

> Regarding Vals, they are pretty cool plants, they actually can do something like CAM and bicarbonate uptake on the lower portion of the leaf, and on the SAME leaf, take up CO2 as well on a different part.


Hi Tom,
   I was under the impression that the bicarb conversion to CO2 only happens under low CO2 conditions. Is the bicarb stored as a C4 malate product and converted later?

Cheers,


----------



## bigmel (24 Feb 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*

You have lost me with the above ..lol..  

My close call....it wasn,t in a tropical tank , i,ve never had to buffer water in my tropical tanks but i always do regular water changes which puts back in kh .

Ok ....My ph dropped to about 5 iirc , the Nitrite was up and basically as the kh was now zero ,the filter got knocked back ,and the fish were flashing  due to the nitrite iiratateing them .

A did a water change and slowly upped the kh but it took months for my filter to get back up to speed .

I have to buffer every week with bicarb  or the same thing happens .


Forgot to say its wasn,t a q&a type of report although it does read like one , i think it was a hyperthetical question as it gets asked so often with koi ponds .
The guy does have a good understanding of water and writes articles in koi magazines .


I guess its very different ,ponds and aquariums .

Cheers


----------



## dw1305 (25 Feb 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*

Hi all,
I don't buy in to the "*pH crash*" scenario either. We have this question frequently on another forum that I do staff for (Plecoplanet <http://www.plecoplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8904>). I think the problem is the one that Clive mentions, some-one has fish death and then measures the pH, which is lower than they expect. This then becomes "_*low pH killed my fish*_", and the "*pH was lower than last time I measured it, therefore the pH has crashed, causing my fish to die*".

It is bit like saying "_*people have umbrellas up and it is raining, therefore raised umbrellas cause rain*_", events can be correlated with out being cause and effect. My opinion is that in these cases fish death and low pH are both symptoms of the underlying problem(s).

In my experience of fish keeping, the relationship between pH and buffering is probably both the most misunderstood concept and the most difficult for the ordinary person to fully understand.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Nat N (25 Feb 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*

Hi all,
Clive, these are really impressive planted tanks! This is the best ever confirmation that EI works wonders.


> I guess its very different ,ponds and aquariums


The main fundamental factor as I understand is the correlation of  different plant biomass percentage to livestock biomass (if I can put it this way). I do not know much about fish ponds (I only have a small one in my garden without fish but only plants and various wildlife). However, I am used to believe that you cannot have as many plants per fish in a pond as you can in planted aquaria. Please, correct me if I am wrong.

I started this post with the misconception which originates from non-planted aquarium keeping, I now believe. So, really the effect of  PH falling and bicarbonates depleted are very-very different in a non-planted and planted aquaria and the plant mass plays a very big role. A pond is probably an equivalent of a goldfish aquarium with only a couple of plants... This is of course a very primitive description of what I have been thinking for a while and what this post confirmed to me. The “correct ratio” of the two seems to determine stability of an ecosystem preventing from PH crushes (however hypothetical they are) and many other crushes of all sorts.

Walstad has very heavily planted tanks with soil based substrate, no CO2, plant fertilization coming from fish waste and fish food and one every 6 months water changes. That seems to work, too. However, the EI dosed tanks have an obvious advantage from the aesthetical point of view and Walstad’s range of plants is also rather limited exactly because not all of the plants can thrive or even grow in El Natural style aquariums. 

Although tempting with its “easy aquarium keeping” routine, El Naturel style is somewhat limiting so I would not follow it. However, the book she wrote to promote this style is very interesting as it contains a lot of data and experiments.

Returning to my initial question about overdosing Potassium, I now think that the overdose can happen in Walstad style aquarium (it should be massive quantities of it though) but will never happen in any of EI aquariums. 

I hope everyone agrees with this conclusion? That basically means that really overdosing of anything is more hypothetical that real.
However, I have an example when an overdose of Iron to toxic level did happen with an aquarium of one person on a beginners forum where I was able to help. Being a learner here I am the one there which gives advice! The girl set up her tanks with the intention to keep plants. So, she used massive quantities of Laterite type substrate and capped it with gravel. However, the lighting level supplied with the tank as standard was insufficient for most of the plants – and algae started and the plants did not really take off, only a few hardy twigs were surviving. Plus she was methodically following advice for non planted tanks – she was vacuuming the substrate “very well” (she thought) pushing the vac tube right down. It actually did not occur to her that she is mixing the layers up brining Laterite to the surface. When her fish started behaving oddly and a few deaths happened, she asked for help. I am proud that I could help to identify the problem. I was right as she checked this by using Polyfilter which changed colour to Orange (Iron) and it was so much of it that it started to form Iron precipitate on the surface of the gravel in a couple of spots she could not reach and stir with her gravel vac. She had to strip the whole tank down.
The bottom line – overdosing can happen but one has to be “specifically talented in creating problems” to reach that point in their aquaria...


----------



## dw1305 (25 Feb 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*

Hi all,


> However, I am used to believe that you cannot have as many plants per fish in a pond as you can in planted aquaria....


 No, not really, you can find fish in ponds with a huge plant biomass. Problems can occur with de-oxygenation at night during very calm periods (when de-oxygenated, stratified water may reach almost to the surface), but there will always be an oxygenated zone at the interface between water and air.

Problems with eutrophication usually occur when you have an artificially large plant biomass which then dies and de-oxygenates the entire water column. This isn't a plant problem, it is a biochemical oxygen demand (BOD) problem caused by an excess of nutrients. This doesn't have to be a man-made pollution, a good example is where you have huge starling roosts on the Somerset levels, their droppings de-oxygenate large areas below the roosts, and these areas are fish free.



> However, I have an example when an overdose of Iron to toxic level did happen ........she used massive quantities of Laterite type substrate and capped it with gravel.....However, the lighting level supplied with the tank as standard was insufficient for most of the plants – and algae started and the plants did not really take off, only a few hardy twigs were surviving. ........It actually did not occur to her that she is mixing the layers up brining Laterite to the surface. When her fish started behaving oddly and a few deaths happened, she asked for help. I am proud that I could help to identify the problem. I was right as she checked this by using Polyfilter which changed colour to Orange (Iron) and it was so much of it that it started to form Iron precipitate on the surface of the gravel in a couple of spots she could not reach and stir with her gravel vac. She had to strip the whole tank down.


I'm pretty sure this is another "cause and effect" problem, you can half fill a tank with laterite, but you won't have any problems with iron toxicity., The reasons for this is that laterites are red because of the ferric oxide (Fe3+) in them and this present in these soils because it is insoluble. In fact laterites are defined as soils where all the soluble salts have been removed from them. This from Wikipedia: 


> Laterites are formed from the leaching of parent sedimentary rocks (sandstones, clays, limestones); metamorphic rocks (schists, gneisses, migmatites); igneous rocks (granites, basalts, gabbros, peridotites); and mineralized proto-ores; which leaves the more insoluble ions, predominantly iron and aluminium. The mechanism of leaching involves acid dissolving the host mineral lattice, followed by hydrolysis and precipitation of insoluble oxides and sulfates of iron, aluminium and silica under the high temperature conditions of a humid sub-tropical monsoon climate


Her problems may have occurred for all sorts of reasons, including the sediment becoming anoxic (having a large REDOX potential) and the reducing conditions within the substrate then liberating a variety of toxic sulphides and other reducing compounds. Iron sulphides may have been produced as well, but are insoluble. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Nat N (25 Feb 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*

Hi Darrel,
Hmm, perhaps I have not made myself perfectly clear...


> No, not really, you can find fish in ponds with a huge plant biomass. Problems can occur with de-oxygenation at night during very calm periods (when de-oxygenated, stratified water may reach almost to the surface), but there will always be an oxygenated zone at the interface between water and air.


This is of course true for the natural ponds and lakes... However, to my experience of what I’ve seen, koi keepers in this country do not have many plants in their artificial ponds – if any. This is what I was referring to... I believe, the chemical/biological processes are very different... Hey, as I said I am a learner here so I am only happy to learn if I am wrong...


> I'm pretty sure this is another "cause and effect" problem, you can half fill a tank with laterite, but you won't have any problems with iron toxicity., The reasons for this is that laterites are red because of the ferric oxide (Fe3+) in them and this present in these soils because it is insoluble. In fact laterites are defined as soils where all the soluble salts have been removed from them.


Again, what I was trying to say is that she had plenty of Iron enriched substrate in what was effectively a fish only, not planted, tank. I said “Laterite” – she actually had about 2 inches of JBL Aquabasis (enriched with Iron, minerals  and traces as JBL states). She had this in the tank with fish but effectively no plants to speak of. She stirred it up on a regular basis... The water column contained huge volumes of soluble Iron (and other metals, I suspect – no means available to test/measure) which poisoned her fish. Nobody in their right mind would put Iron in concentration in a fish only tank... she did... She did treat her tap water with the dechlorinator/metal chelator prior to water changes but her own substrate was poisonous... 

Natalia


----------



## bigmel (25 Feb 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*

Thanks for the inputt guys , i find it very interesting .

Just another point , its only the koi keepers with ultra soft water like up in scotland and Cheshire to name two areas  that have to buffer there kh , in hard water areas its no problem .

With heavy feeding in a koi pond and not enough water changes it will happen as the kh gets used up if its not replaced .

Most koi keepers (not pond keepers)will have no plants in there pond as they wouldn,t last 5 minutes ..lol..

I,m sorry i,ve gone off topic on this post   and it seems things are different in tropical planted tanks ,like i have also found after 20 years of tropical tanks and  have had no problems , but the pond is a different matter .


----------



## bigmel (25 Feb 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*

Hi Nat 

*i started this post with the misconception which originates from non-planted aquarium keeping, I now believe. So, really the effect of PH falling and bicarbonates depleted are very-very different in a non-planted and planted aquaria and the plant mass plays a very big role. A pond is probably an equivalent of a goldfish aquarium with only a couple of plants... This is of course a very primitive description of what I have been thinking for a while and what this post confirmed to me. The “correct ratio” of the two seems to determine stability of an ecosystem preventing from PH crushes (however hypothetical they are) and many other crushes of all sorts.*

I think the above must be right as my pond behaves in a totally different way than any planted aquarium i have ever had . If any havn,t been planted they had large predators in there and hence large weekly water changes which would replenish the kh (which is just about 1 from my tap water ) .


----------



## dw1305 (27 Feb 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*

Hi all,
Hi "Nat N", you wrote:


> ... However, I am used to believe that you cannot have as many plants per fish in a pond as you can in planted aquaria.....


 & 





> This is of course true for the natural ponds and lakes... However, to my experience of what I’ve seen, koi keepers in this country do not have many plants in their artificial ponds – if any. This is what I was referring to.


Your first quote made me think you were asking about planted ponds, but if you aren't and are talking about "hi tech" Koi ponds you are into an entirely different situation. The Koi pond principle is much more similar to a "waste water works" situation with a very high BOD. Here you need a huge gas exchange surface for biological filtration, and you may have to add both (bi)carbonates and oxygen to the pond to cope with the BOD. If biological filtration can reduce the BOD, the problem then becomes the nitrate in the water, in this case we are back to "_the solution for pollution is dilution_", although many Koi keepers choose to treat the symptom of the nitrates (the planktonic green algae that cause "green water"), with UV, rather than the nitrates themselves.



> The water column contained huge volumes of soluble Iron


I think you are wrong here, it is honestly really difficult to keep iron ions in solution.


> She did treat her tap water with the dechlorinator/metal chelator prior to water changes but her own substrate was poisonous...


The ion that is most strongly bound to EDTA etc are the iron ions (Fe), so the chelator would have removed the iron first. This may have  left other toxic metal ions (Zn, Cu, Pb) available, but I doubt they were the cause of her problems, although I do think the substrate was at least partially responsible. 

Personally I'm convinced that the majority of problems people encounter in the aquarium are related to lack of oxygen, either cumulative long-term sub-lethal effects, a fatal de-oxygenation of the water column or the one that I think is the biggest problem, not enough oxygen reaching the biological filtration media. In my experience, both in the aquarium, and with our landfill leachate work, in any system (that has some carbonate buffering), as long as the amount of O2 exceeds the BOD at all times you don't have too many problems.

The other proviso is if you start adding CO2 this may lead to CO2 poisoning, due to the Bohr effect, even in fully oxygenated systems.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Nat N (29 Feb 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*

Hi all,
Hi Darrell,


> I think you are wrong here, it is honestly really difficult to keep iron ions in solution.





> The ion that is most strongly bound to EDTA etc are the iron ions (Fe), so the chelator would have removed the iron first. This may have left other toxic metal ions (Zn, Cu, Pb) available, but I doubt they were the cause of her problems, although I do think the substrate was at least partially responsible.


Yes, Iron binds much stronger than other metals and often releases them by the process of binding itself. As all of us know,  Chelated Iron is added as a fertilizer. This is because Iron is released under the light and becomes soluble and accessible to plants. That woman had a powerful “concoction” of metals  in her effectively non-planted tank. The reason for me to think I was right is the fact that she used Polyfilter to remove contaminants. Polyfilter changes its colour depending on what it is removing. In her case, it was orange (Iron). Of course, of course, I suspect there were plenty of other metals – Polyfilter is not designed to show them. I also know that EI “adepts” dismiss test kits as highly inaccurate. I TOTALLY agree with this. However, a test kit (or Polyfilter) is capable to show presence of a chemical in the water no matter how inaccurate the actual reading is.  Her Polyfilter turned bright burning colour at first and the intensity was gradually decreasing as she was following the course we agreed was best in her situation.
By the way, here’s a quote from DW (again, I am sorry I quote her so much not being myself an adept of El Natural method) – this is page 132 of her book:
Quote:
“I had a first-hand experience with iron toxicity when I mixed potting soil with laterite, which is sold as an iron-rich clay. (At the time, I mistakenly thought I needed to add iron to the substrate.) Although I added only a cup of laterite to the potting soil underlayer, within two weeks the roots of all floating plants died. Java fern turned brown and died. Plants rooted in the substrate didn’t die right away, but eventually they detached from the substrate and floated to the surface. I measured high iron levels in the water. (Genarally, my tanks show no measurable water iron.) Also, I had a persistent problem with algae in this tank. Eventually, I gave up and tore the tank down.”
Unquote.
Having quoted this, I still stand by my conclusion of metal poisoning in that woman’s tank(Iron or other or combined ). 


> Personally I'm convinced that the majority of problems people encounter in the aquarium are related to lack of oxygen, either cumulative long-term sub-lethal effects, a fatal de-oxygenation of the water column or the one that I think is the biggest problem, not enough oxygen reaching the biological filtration media.


Thanks for this – this is a very valid argument which is one of the things which definitely have to be taken into the consideration.


> I think the above must be right as my pond behaves in a totally different way than any planted aquarium i have ever had . If any havn,t been planted they had large predators in there and hence large weekly water changes which would replenish the kh (which is just about 1 from my tap water ) .





> Your first quote made me think you were asking about planted ponds, but if you aren't and are talking about "hi tech" Koi ponds you are into an entirely different situation. The Koi pond principle is much more similar to a "waste water works" situation with a very high BOD. Here you need a huge gas exchange surface for biological filtration, and you may have to add both (bi)carbonates and oxygen to the pond to cope with the BOD. If biological filtration can reduce the BOD, the problem then becomes the nitrate in the water, in this case we are back to "the solution for pollution is dilution", although many Koi keepers choose to treat the symptom of the nitrates (the planktonic green algae that cause "green water"), with UV, rather than the nitrates themselves.


Yeah, I know, I probably did not make myself quite clear when I was referring to the most common practices of keeping pond fish I know. 
The bottom line is – I do not want to argue and “prove my point”. I did say I am here to learn!  One important thing however, which I observed is the fact that very often a very-very good advice leads to the total disaster because fish-only and plant heavy tanks principles are mixed, misinterpreted and used where they should not be used. I constantly read advice given by “fish only” tank keepers (very experienced in their own way) to people trying to grow plants. Guess what? - The plants perish, fish die and people give up. Equally, EI method which I highly respect, will undoubtedly fail  for people who only have a couple of plants in their aquariums. 
I am trying to optimize my own maintenance & ferts regime suitable for the tanks/plants/fish and the spare time  I have and I am very grateful to all opinion expressed in this post.
As the result of this, I topped up the CO2 in the tanks I was mainly referring to when I asked the question. I also stopped worrying about the PH crush (not relevant for my reasonably planted tanks) but I am watchful about dosing Potassium. I decreased the amount of Potassium Bicarbonate but increased Potassium Phosphate. All looks good at the moment – I hope that Val Americana will perk up and I had to pull out unwanted twigs of Pogostemon Stellata as it is truly going mad. The fish look happy, too. So, generally, I think, I have learned something here!


----------



## dw1305 (2 Mar 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*

Hi all,


> Her Polyfilter turned bright burning colour at first and the intensity was gradually decreasing as she was following the course we agreed was best in her situation.
> By the way, here’s a quote from DW (again, I am sorry I quote her so much not being myself an adept of El Natural method) – this is page 132 of her book:
> Quote:
> “I had a first-hand experience with iron toxicity when I mixed potting soil with laterite, which is sold as an iron-rich clay. (At the time, I mistakenly thought I needed to add iron to the substrate.) Although I added only a cup of laterite to the potting soil underlayer, within two weeks the roots of all floating plants died. Java fern turned brown and died. Plants rooted in the substrate didn’t die right away, but eventually they detached from the substrate and floated to the surface. I measured high iron levels in the water. (Genarally, my tanks show no measurable water iron.) Also, I had a persistent problem with algae in this tank. Eventually, I gave up and tore the tank down.”
> ...



Iron toxicity it is then, it is certainly possible that reducing conditions in the substrate may have released Fe2+ (ferrous) ions at toxic levels, that have then oxidized to ferric oxide (Fe2O3) in the polyfilter. This COD (chemical oxygen demand), would have further reduced oxygen levels. 

I don't use EI personally, this is because I don't use added CO2 and I would like all the changes in my tanks to be fairly slow ones. I use the "reduction of BOD" as my primary tank management method.

With apologies for the cross-post, but there are some details here in "_Aeration and dissolved oxygen in the aquarium_": <http://plecoplanet.com/?page_id=829>.

cheers Darrel


----------



## ceg4048 (2 Mar 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*

I use more Iron then anybody I know of and I never get this. And she appears to be implicating Iron for here algae woes? Sorry, I'm not buying this at all. Could it be that the tank was suffering poor CO2 and that the plants simply melted away causing massive rise in BOD? The symptoms are just not adding up. Detaching from the substrate sounds like exactly what happens under excessive light and low CO2.

Apologies if I seem obnoxious and argumentative but this is what my roots look like under unreasonably high Iron loading. I actually pulled these from the sediment to throw them away because the plants were overgrow. pH approx 5.5 by the way. No toxicity whatsoever. There must have been something else going on that we are not aware of.









Cheers,


----------



## bigmel (3 Mar 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*

Can i just ask what "Bod "is please  :?: 


Thanks


----------



## ceg4048 (3 Mar 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*

Here you go    => http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biochemical_oxygen_demand

Cheers,


----------



## Nat N (3 Mar 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*

Hi all,



> With apologies for the cross-post, but there are some details here in "Aeration and dissolved oxygen in the aquarium": <http://plecoplanet.com/?page_id=829>.


Thanks Darrel,
I have been just reading the article and bookmarked it. 


> Apologies if I seem obnoxious and argumentative but this is what my roots look like under unreasonably high Iron loading. I actually pulled these from the sediment to throw them away because the plants were overgrow. pH approx 5.5 by the way. No toxicity whatsoever. There must have been something else going on that we are not aware of.


Clive, I don’t think you are obnoxious/argumentative at all. I do like “argumentative” conversations – I tend to learn from them!   This is just a very different method DW uses which seems to not require additional dosing. I have seen truly spectacular examples of aquariums created/maintained with different approach – equally, there were examples of failures of each of the system. There may be something else going on in that tank, I agree. 


> I use more Iron then anybody I know of and I never get this. And she appears to be implicating Iron for here algae woes? Sorry, I'm not buying this at all. Could it be that the tank was suffering poor CO2 and that the plants simply melted away causing massive rise in BOD? The symptoms are just not adding up. Detaching from the substrate sounds like exactly what happens under excessive light and low CO2.


As far as I know, DW uses moderate light and yes, no CO2 injections (CO2 is meant to be provided naturally, like in lakes and ponds – the essence of NPT method). 
By the way, rather than being a “third party” for DW, I can say that she is actually relatively easily accessible. She is on one of the American planted tanks forums. I am not sure I can actually “promote” other forum here, so I am not sending a link. She also replies to emails as she did reply to me last year. The email is actually in her very book. I could try to contact her asking to have a look at this thread – would be interesting to know what she says first hand rather than me interpreting/quoting... Please, let me know guys – and I will try to email her.

Natalia


----------



## O'Neil (3 Mar 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Yes there are lots of exagerations, but mostly there are illogical or irrational conclusions drawn from circumstantial evidence. Most people don't even know what pH is. I mean, have you actually thought about what pH is actually a measure of? It's just a ratio of one ion to another. In fact pH can be an acronym for "percent of Hydrogen ion (H+)". Low pH means high concentration of H+, and this can only happen if acids are added to the water.
> 
> In a tank acids are produced just from the breakdown of waste products. If you clean you tank regularly then this waste is removed, but even if you don't the acidic level of the water can't just all of a sudden fall off a cliff unless you dump acid in the tank yourself.
> 
> ...




This guy really knows his stuff, are you some kind of aquatic super genius Ceg?
Oh and do you want an apprentice? lol


----------



## Nat N (3 Mar 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*



> This guy really knows his stuff, are you some kind of aquatic super genius Ceg?
> Oh and do you want an apprentice? lol



Of course, he does! And I am being "sort of" an apprentice right now.


----------



## bigmel (4 Mar 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Here you go    => http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biochemical_oxygen_demand
> 
> Cheers,




Thanks


----------



## O'Neil (4 Mar 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*



			
				Nat N said:
			
		

> > This guy really knows his stuff, are you some kind of aquatic super genius Ceg?
> > Oh and do you want an apprentice? lol
> 
> 
> ...



lol nice one Nat


----------



## ceg4048 (5 Mar 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*

The real geniuses are plantbrain and dw1305. They make their living understanding these concepts. One simply has to believe what they are saying and then  follow their advice.    

Cheers,


----------



## Nat N (14 Mar 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*

Hi all,


> The real geniuses are plantbrain and dw1305. They make their living understanding these concepts. One simply has to believe what they are saying and then follow their advice.


Well, I’ve guessed that... You are not bad either, Clive, to be honest. However, I take my hat off to real geniuses!  



> By the way, rather than being a “third party” for DW, I can say that she is actually relatively easily accessible. She is on one of the American planted tanks forums. I am not sure I can actually “promote” other forum here, so I am not sending a link. She also replies to emails as she did reply to me last year. The email is actually in her very book. I could try to contact her asking to have a look at this thread – would be interesting to know what she says first hand rather than me interpreting/quoting... Please, let me know guys – and I will try to email her.


Well, I guess the topic is old now and asking DW about her opinion is too late now... Never mind.


----------



## O'Neil (14 Mar 2012)

*Re: Potassium Bicarbonate and Potassium Phosphate = overdosi*

One has to find a way to remember their advice, lol


----------

