# Eradicate algae altogether from the tank - Theory



## ghostsword (29 Jul 2010)

Following some posts on the forum regarding how algae is ever present on the tank waiting for the right moment to grow, I came up with a theory that may actually create a free algae tank.

If we use 1-2-Grow plants that "are free of algae and snails" from Tropica, on water that has been boiled to kill any algae spores (if this is possible), with gravel or soil that has been burned to high temperatures, killing any living thing on it, we should in theory have a algae free tank, right?


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## ceg4048 (29 Jul 2010)

Wrong, sorry. Spores will always find their way into the tank. Algae have been around for billions of years. Do you think that you can outsmart them, or bully them? Stop trying to always think of ways of killing everything. This mentality is exactly why Planet Earth is so totally screwed up, and we'll most likely wind up killing ourselves. The only thing left at the end might actually be algae, which would be sweet irony and justice.  I don't kill algae and my tank is effectively algae free.

Concentrate more on having a healthy tank, whether you wish to use lean dosing methods or rich methods, whether you wish to use high energy or low energy. Use your heart, soul and brain cells to find the way to co-exist in that method instead of declaring total war. That path always leads to mutually assured destruction (M.A.D.)

Cheers,


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## AverageWhiteBloke (29 Jul 2010)

Interesting one m8, I don't know much about algal spores and their survival outside of the aquarium. There could be problems possibly from fish or water when adding fish from the other systems. I know previously I have add small breeding tanks which were sterilised and RO buffered water with the prospective fish only in and algae still appeared.
Maybe there are airborne spores not sure but algae seem to grow anywhere their needs are met. I'd be interested in what other people have to say though.

*edited posted before I saw Clives answer


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## George Farmer (29 Jul 2010)

Great post, Clive.

I quite like nuisance algae.

It's a warning sign that you're doing something wrong.

When you're doing things right, you don't get any.

It's part of life's rich tapestry.

Imagine life without nuisance algae.  UKAPS would be about 10% of the size it is now!!!


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## AverageWhiteBloke (29 Jul 2010)

First time I've heard a post on algae being a friend. Maybe we should look at it from now on the same as a DC indicating problems.
Creating a truly sterile environment has always been problematic, as soon as we mess with nature it comes back even stronger to bite us. You only have to look at MRSA in hospitals, the amount of allergy sufferers in the western world due to living in too clean environments and super strains of common virus due to over prescribed antibiotics.

Long Live Algae


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## ghostsword (29 Jul 2010)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Wrong, sorry. Spores will always find their way into the tank. Algae have been around for billions of years. Do you think that you can outsmart them, or bully them? Stop trying to always think of ways of killing everything. This mentality is exactly why Planet Earth is so totally screwed up, and we'll most likely wind up killing ourselves. The only thing left at the end might actually be algae, which would be sweet irony and justice.  I don't kill algae and my tank is effectively algae free.
> 
> Concentrate more on having a healthy tank, whether you wish to use lean dosing methods or rich methods, whether you wish to use high energy or low energy. Use your heart, soul and brain cells to find the way to co-exist in that method instead of declaring total war. That path always leads to mutually assured destruction (M.A.D.)
> 
> Cheers,



erm.. Seen on the title "Theory"? This is what it is, a theory. I have no issue with Algae, I am sure that there are uses for it, and I am yet to see a nature documentary about rivers where there isn't algae on the rocks and plants. 

When you say that you do not kill algae and your tank is algae free, don't you realise the impossibility of that comment? If algae is ever present, and you do not kill it, how can your tank be algae free? 

So please do not jump to conclusions and patronise a simple question.

The question remains, can it be possible to have a completely algae free tank? After all, Tropica is selling their plants algae free.


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## dw1305 (29 Jul 2010)

Hi all,
As Clive suggests algal spores are everywhere in the environment, for example the freshwater green algae (Chlorophyta) produce a special hard walled "spore", an "_akinete_" to facilitate aerial dispersal from drying ponds.  Have a look at  "_Survival strategies of the algae_" by Greta A. Fryxell on Google books for more details.


> First time I've heard a post on algae being a friend"


 I look at it like that, if you don't have any there is something wrong. Just don't look on it as the hated and feared algae, but think of it as the wholly beneficial aufwuchs or "biofilm". In terms of water quality the big difference in aquarium keeping is plants or no plants, it doesn't matter whether the plants are algae or higher plants.


> Maybe we should look at it from now on the same as a DC indicating problems. Creating a truly sterile environment has always been problematic, as soon as we mess with nature it comes back even stronger to bite us. You only have to look at MRSA in hospitals....."


 Very true, that is why I like limited intervention, stability and slow change, things may get out of balance, but it all happens fairly slowly giving you much more of a chance to nudge the parameters until things stabilise at a new equilibrium. I use an _ad hoc_ "algal early warning system" and I expect most of us do this, in that, for example, I expect to have both BBA and a fuzz of green algae on older leaves, but normally I have very little BGA. Therefore if the BGA suddenly starts to proliferate, or I get a unicellular green algal bloom in the water, something has changed, and need to find out what it is, and then decide if I need to attempt to do anything about it.

The higher plants and the green algae share exactly the same photosynthetic pigments and physiology, you can't create conditions that allow your aquarium plants to grow but exclude them, it is not possible, to all intents and purposes they are the same thing. What you can do however is nudge the conditions towards an equilibrium where the growth of the higher plants is favoured, this can be a highly interventionist high tech. approach, where extremely good growing conditions allow the plants to grow at a much faster rate than the algae, or they can be a much lower tech. approach where conditions are sub-optimal for both plants and algae, but they remain in a balance we find aesthetically acceptable.   

cheers  Darrel


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## AverageWhiteBloke (29 Jul 2010)

What does Tropica do to be able to sell their plants as algae free? Not disputing that they are just wondering if they can make this claim when we are talking about things at microscopic level. Maybe they are grown hydroponic so no algae that lives in water but then they would take time to recover once submerged. Just throwing ideas up.


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## Anonymous (29 Jul 2010)

Well I'm not that into theory .. why don't you buy one and test it?


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## ceg4048 (29 Jul 2010)

Luis,
     When we talk about a tank being algae free we are saying that there are no algal blooms. It is the algal blooms that are problematic and that cause headaches, not the spores. Your theory is not valid because as I said, you cannot prevent spore intrusion into the tank because spores travel by every means possible, by land air and sea. You probably have spores on your hand, so when you stick your hand into the tank they intrude. When you open the tank lid, they intrude. When you insert a new piece of hardscape, they intrude. Your proposal is a hopeless one and it's not focused on the correct path. 

You think you are being patronized? I don't do that. I'm telling you the truth. Go to any pond supply shop. There is an always an entire row of shelves dedicated to killing algae. They work for about a week, they damage the plants as well as algae and the algae returns with a vengeance because the plant is weakened and spore return to a more favourable environment for them. These products are all focused on killing. DDT was meant to kill insects, but instead it kills birds and kills us. Now it's banned. The killing mode is why you now pay extra for "organic" vegetables which supposedly have no insecticide.

The idea of an algae free tank is one in which there are no blooms, not one in which there are no spores. An algae free tank means that you have convinced the spores to not bloom, and that you have done so in plant friendly manner, NOT that you have annihilated spores from existence. You want to kill every living thing in the sediment?? Hello...Earth calling Luis, the critters that live in the sediment are the good news. They help plants. Killing _them_ doesn't help the health of the plants or the fish.

So lets say you kill all spores. Do you think this relieves you of the burden to to feed the plants and to have proper levels of CO2 and to keep the tank clean, and to not have too much light, and to have proper flow, and so on and so forth? This still has to be done because the focus is on plant health, not on killing. You plants can still fail miserably even if there were no algae.

So if you have to do the right things anyway to make your plants grow properly, why not just learn to do them right in the first place? As George points out, if you see algal blooms then this means you are doing something wrong with respect to plant health. They effectively act as an indicator. Eradicating spores will not ultimately solve the core issue of plant health. 

Cheers,


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## ghostsword (29 Jul 2010)

Thanks Clive.. 

So the spores are not only on the water. I still got lots to learn, it seems that algae is much more interesting than plants.  

So they hang around for perfect conditions, most probably sensing when plants are at their worst, their spores travel by air, attached to items, even on our own hands, survive in water, dry soil and foreign objects and to top it all provide us with a large amount of O2 from the seas. 



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Your proposal is a hopeless one and it's not focused on the correct path.


The theory is flawed it seems, but I have to disagree with the above, there is no correct path I think, we learned from our mistakes and by trying new things. I learn a  lot from yours and other senior members posts, but it would be foolish of me not to try things and questions some of the established ideas.

This thread was not about plant health, just a question if there is a possibility to completely eradicate algae from the tank. Impossible it seems. 



			
				AverageWhiteBloke said:
			
		

> What does Tropica do to be able to sell their plants as algae free? Not disputing that they are just wondering if they can make this claim when we are talking about things at microscopic level. Maybe they are grown hydroponic so no algae that lives in water but then they would take time to recover once submerged. Just throwing ideas up.



Now, this opens another questions. Tropica is then selling a gimmick. Plants without algae? Why bother? If our tanks are not up to scratch on CO2 and enough nutrients, with adequate light, as soon as you put the Tropica pristine plants in less than a week the algae problems will appear.


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## ghostsword (29 Jul 2010)

dw1305 said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> As Clive suggests algal spores are everywhere in the environment, for example the freshwater green algae (Chlorophyta) produce a special hard walled "spore", an "_akinete_" to facilitate aerial dispersal from drying ponds.  Have a look at  "_Survival strategies of the algae_" by Greta A. Fryxell on Google books for more details.
> 
> cheers  Darrel



Thanks for the book link, I will check it out. Quite amazing the techniques algae has to survive the harsher environment thrown at them.


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## Dan Crawford (29 Jul 2010)

AverageWhiteBloke said:
			
		

> What does Tropica do to be able to sell their plants as algae free? Not disputing that they are just wondering if they can make this claim when we are talking about things at microscopic level. Maybe they are grown hydroponic so no algae that lives in water but then they would take time to recover once submerged. Just throwing ideas up.





			
				ghostsword said:
			
		

> Now, this opens another questions. Tropica is then selling a gimmick. Plants without algae? Why bother? If our tanks are not up to scratch on CO2 and enough nutrients, with adequate light, as soon as you put the Tropica pristine plants in less than a week the algae problems will appear.


I have to disagree somewhat. Clive has made it clear that nothing is algae free, Tropica could have told you that 40 years ago. What they are selling is plants that are not already covered in unsightly algae like you get in many retailers. They are not pretending to sell magic plants that won't get nuisance algae on them, just that they wont have it on them when you buy them. They are not saying "dump them in your tank and they'll grow 30cm in 30 days". If you read the packaging it clearly says "*with sufficient light and nutrition", and they include a great deal of detailed instructions. It's a normal plant at the end of the day, just grown and sold slightly different to what we are used to. What you're getting here is a great deal more info then a usual potted plant and a great deal more for your money for a little extra cost.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (29 Jul 2010)

> Tropica is then selling a gimmick. Plants without algae?


 It would appear so  :? and nature all things being equal once in the tank soon would have some on.
Well worth posting the theory though ghost we all learned something from it (except Clive and George that is   ) Thats is after all what theories are for.


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## ghostsword (29 Jul 2010)

AverageWhiteBloke said:
			
		

> > Tropica is then selling a gimmick. Plants without algae?
> 
> 
> It would appear so  :? and nature all things being equal once in the tank soon would have some on.
> Well worth posting the theory though ghost we all learned something from it (except Clive and George that is   ) Thats is after all what theories are for.




 yep, I came out of this with much more information that when I started this morning, so it is good result. If buying online plants I would buy the new tropica plants, but if buying at a shop where I can see the plants, then rather buy the normal potted, even if the price difference is under Â£2 per pot (it may be more), however that is for another thread.  

Thanks for sharing your insights and experiences, it was helpful.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (29 Jul 2010)

Tropica are pretty much saying that they sell plants with no nuisance algae already on as oppose to algae full stop. That has to be the standard surely anyway?  Anyone who sells plants already with it on isn't going to be selling them long I guess. A bit like selling ice cream guaranteeing its cold   
Tropica plants are better in other ways and are generally very healthy compared to some I use, I think they just stated the obvious as an advertising campaign OR it could be said a bit of a gimmick intended for people who haven't read this post yet.


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## ghostsword (29 Jul 2010)

AverageWhiteBloke said:
			
		

> Tropica are pretty much saying that they sell plants with no nuisance algae already on as oppose to algae full stop. That has to be the standard surely anyway?  Anyone who sells plants already with it on isn't going to be selling them long I guess. A bit like selling ice cream guaranteeing its cold



But that is what marketing is, right?


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## AverageWhiteBloke (29 Jul 2010)

yep I guess so, a bit like the more bacteria on your chopping board than your toilet seat advert   Initially you think best buy some then think hold on that means I don't need it because I never had it before which means up to press I could have chopped food on my toilet seat and still been alright!

* DISCLAIMER
I personally or UKAPS do not recommend the preparation of food on your toilet seat. Anyone doing so is doing it solely at their own risk and accept no responsibility but can recommend putting the toilet roll in the fridge before hand as you will be needing it extensively on a tender area.


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## Mark Evans (29 Jul 2010)

were forgetting that 90%of tropica and aquafleur plants are grown above water. 

It's tank conditions that induce algae, the amount of wonderful, brand new planted tanks with tropica plants, ADA systems...high end gear basically, that end up not quite as good as the products them selves...still believe in tropica algae free plants? 

i've bought plants covered in the green stuff, and transformed them back to how they once was. so maybe algae covered plants are the future?....


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## George Farmer (29 Jul 2010)

AverageWhiteBloke said:
			
		

> What does Tropica do to be able to sell their plants as algae free? Not disputing that they are just wondering if they can make this claim when we are talking about things at microscopic level. Maybe they are grown hydroponic so no algae that lives in water but then they would take time to recover once submerged. Just throwing ideas up.





			
				clonitza said:
			
		

> Well I'm not that into theory .. why don't you buy one and test it?





			
				ghostsword said:
			
		

> AverageWhiteBloke said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OK, let's clear a few things up... 

Tropica's 1-2-GROW plants are _guaranteed_ algae free because they are grown from cells in a sterile laboratory environment.  I've been in the lab.  We had to go through all-sorts of procedures to ensure we didn't contaminate anything.

Tropica's regular potted plants are _not_ guaranteed algae free because they're grown in unsterile wet/humid conditions using plenty of light and nutrients, so some algae will grow, mostly on surface of the mineral wool.  None is visible on the plant leaves.

However, when the potted plants reach the retailer they're often stored in poor conditions, leaving the plants susceptible to algae.

This is where the 1-2-GROW are advantageous in some situations, as regular shops can stock them for weeks at a time with no risk of algae and without the necessary expense of CO2-enriched, well-lit and filtered selling/holding tanks...  The trade-off is that they're generally more expensive and relatively small.

No gimmicks really.  Just a viable alternative to regular potted plants.


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## dw1305 (30 Jul 2010)

Hi all,
George wrote: 





> This is where the 1-2-GROW are advantageous in some situations, as regular shops can stock them for weeks at a time with no risk of algae and without the necessary expense of CO2-enriched, well-lit and filtered selling/holding tanks... The trade-off is that they're generally more expensive and relatively small."


 Yes that would make sense, the tissue culturing process needs to be aseptic or all sorts of things grow on the nutrient agar.

When I worked in the horticultural industry in the 1980's, tissue cultured plants were the next big thing. They have revolutionised some bits of the industry (that is where all the cheap Orchids have come from) and meant that "virus free" stock of many old cultivars of Strawberries, Carnations, Double Primroses etc. can be created and the bulked up really quickly. 

Presumably Tropica already were using tissue culture to rapidly produce plants of their new _Echinodorus_ cultivars etc. so it was a logical move.  In fact a very quick look on Google produces this for _Echinodorus_ 'Oriental' <http://192.38.244.204/article.asp?type=aquaristic&id=255>

The problems we had were with tissue cultured Roses. A lot of Roses won't grow from cuttings, so cultivars are usually produced by "T budding", that is taking a dormant bud from the rose cultivar you want to propagate (this is called the scion), and then placing it into a T shaped slot cut in the bark of a growing rose "stock", that is  a rose seedling, (usually of a thornless strain of _Rosa dumetorum "laxa"_ ). The trick is to get the cambial layers of the stock and scion to line up and them grow together (or "take") and then later you cut the head of the stock of just above the bud of the scion, this grows out giving you the rose you want on the root of the stock. As you can imagine this is quite an expensive and time consuming process, so tissue culture looked a really good proposition. 

The problem with the Roses was weaning, we bought them in the agar blocks (like the Tropica 1-2 Grow ones), but most of them used to die in the months after potting into potting compost, so to reduce mortality the plants used to have to go into a shade tunnel with a fogging machine etc. and soon they worked out more expensive than the traditional method, so it was back to the budding. 

I think the weaning problems should be lessened for the aquatics, but it will still be interesting to see how quickly the 1-2 GROW plants adapt, if it is a trouble free process and they grew away strongly they should stay algae free longer, but if the change in environment causes growth to drop off, presumably the algae will get a hold on any senescent leaves and that advantage will be lost. 

cheers Darrel


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## ghostsword (30 Jul 2010)

dw1305 said:
			
		

> I think the weaning problems should be lessened for the aquatics, but it will still be interesting to see how quickly the 1-2 GROW plants adapt, if it is a trouble free process and they grew away strongly they should stay algae free longer, but if the change in environment causes growth to drop off, presumably the algae will get a hold on any senescent leaves and that advantage will be lost.



Without trying one cannot really be sure, I will have to order a few pots to see how it pans out  . 

Now if the plants from tropica are completely algae free, no spores, sterilized, and on the gel, are they deemed to have grown emersed, or imersed? 

The reason I ask is that if they are grown emersed they will still need to adapt to underwater conditions, and this will further weaken them, making it prone for algae already existent on the tank as spores to attach to the leaves. Also the fact that they are much smaller than other plants purchased on the LFS's would it be correct to say that they have fewer energy reserves to keep them going while adapting to life underwater?

I have not purchased any 1-2-grow plants yet, or have seen them on a LFS, not sure if they are being sold in London. 

If you have obtained any, can they be deemed as emersed or immersed?


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## dw1305 (30 Jul 2010)

Hi all,
Luis, I don't think that there is any real difference between the plants grown in rockwool and the I-2-GROW plants in terms of being emersed/immersed.

In both cases the roots are "immersed" and the top growth "emersed". I think this was the problem with roses, the roots terrestrial plants grow in hydroponics, agar or in rock-wool are quite different from the roots they grow in a terrestrial growing media, and it was during the change the plants died. It may be the 100% humidity within the sealed container for the 1-2-GROW plants will make the transition from emersed to immersed less problematic . 

Any true aquatics won't be grown in this way, they will have to be grown in a liquid medium. 

cheers Darrel


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## AverageWhiteBloke (30 Jul 2010)

> Maybe they are grown hydroponic so no algae that lives in water but then they would take time to recover once submerged


That was my point earlier on in the thread, would plants that are grown in this way take time to recover thus making all the time, effort and OTT sterile environment counter productive if the plant is on the back foot from day 1 in your tank?
I remember discussing with Clive the snorkel effect that some plants have when not grown under water where the plants bolt to the surface to get to atmospheric air to exchange gases which I wrongly assumed was it bolting for more light. Would this also be the case with the 1-2 plants?
It seems a shame that these plants have so much TLC in the beginning of life the chances are they are going to end up in a tank which is less than adequate, probably mine    
Does this start in life demand a premium price that will be worth the extra cash or not I don't know, me personally probably no. Considering I have various algae already on a few plants which is not such a bad thing as long as it isn't ruining the overall effect as soon as the plant gets in my tank the algae is going to colonise it from the plant next door to it.
On the other hand if I had a new setup I was very experienced these would be for me.
Irony here being when Ghost was contemplating the idea of the sterile environment for plants it didn't go down too well which turns out is what tropica do


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## a1Matt (30 Jul 2010)

Thread about DIY tissue culture that may be of interest as a starting point to those wanting to experiment growing plants in a sterile environment :

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10194&hilit=tissue+culture


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## ghostsword (30 Jul 2010)

AverageWhiteBloke said:
			
		

> On the other hand if I had a new setup I was very experienced these would be for me.
> Irony here being when Ghost was contemplating the idea of the sterile environment for plants it didn't go down too well which turns out is what tropica do



 It was a question that had been on my head since I heard about the 1-2-grow plants. I obviously didn't know about the air borne algae spores.

I believe that some of the comments were made not out of understanding of what was being asked, but jumping of the bandwagon of others commenting the same. Makes sense? 

I got algae on my tank, some brown green algae growing on the rocks, where there is high flow, and I actually like it, it gives the tank a natural look. My plants are so far without visible algae, and I probably would not buy the new tropica plants for the main tank, but for a emersed setup, or wabi kusa plant balls they would be a good choice.


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## sWozzAres (30 Jul 2010)

ghostsword said:
			
		

> I obviously didn't know about the air borne algae spores.



Dont let that put you off! Sir Isaac Newton didn't know about relativity but that doesn't mean his science wasn't of any use 

Just because spores are possible, doesn't mean they are probable. Your "practical clean room" theory could still prove beneficial by reducing and possibly removing algae for long periods of time


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## ghostsword (31 Jul 2010)

Thanks.. 

For example, would RO remove the spores from the water? Would bottled water have the spores?

For substrate, would ADA or similar, that has been cooked at high temperatures have the spores?

I may try the theory on a small tank, something under 20L, lots of ferts, lots of light and using the 1-2-grow plants, but with boiled water and with cooked substrate. Will be hard to get a completely sterile environment, but can try. 

It is quite interesting how algae finds ways to survive and multiply.


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## sWozzAres (31 Jul 2010)

RO filters out molecules so spores wouldn't get through.

http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/ ... lls/scale/


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## ghostsword (31 Jul 2010)

sWozzAres said:
			
		

> RO filters out molecules so spores wouldn't get through.
> 
> http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/ ... lls/scale/



Thanks.. I will get some RO water for a nano, then dose EI and 12 hours of light, see if there is any algae turn up.  It is cheap to try, even with just two of three 1-2-grow plants. One stems, the other anubias..


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## Brenmuk (2 Aug 2010)

ghostsword said:
			
		

> Thanks..
> 
> For example, would RO remove the spores from the water? Would bottled water have the spores?
> 
> ...



Can you ensure that your RO equipment is algae spore free and that the ADA substrate has not been contaminated with algae spores between the time it was heat treated and you buying it?

You can try a simpler experiment, get a glass jar fill it with boiling water and leave it on a windowsill for a few weeks/months where it can get light and is open to the air. The jar and the water should be sterilised by boiling so any algae that grows will have come in by some other means such as airborne spores.

All this though perhaps misses the point as an earlier poster has said that they can get algae covered plants and get them back to growing healthy and 'algae free' under good plant growing conditions.


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## a1Matt (2 Aug 2010)

Brenmuk said:
			
		

> You can try a simpler experiment, get a glass jar fill it with boiling water and leave it on a windowsill for a few weeks/months where it can get light and is open to the air. The jar and the water should be sterilised by boiling so any algae that grows will have come in by some other means such as airborne spores.



Possibly also adding a second jar that has the same treatment, but the lid is screwed down tight, and see how long that one takes to show signs of algal growth as well.

and a third and fourth which get the same treatment as one and two but are kept in darkness


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## ghostsword (2 Aug 2010)

The main thing for me will be to try the 1-2-grow plants, I may get some anubias and slip the rhyzome, then after a month or two see how they developed.


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