# Tall 250l - Y llechen ogof



## idris (17 Apr 2011)

Y llechen ogof

For various reasons it's taken about 18 months from starting to plan my new tank to getting something in it. 
It all started with my old 60l tank when I introduced a couple of new Bristle Nose Catfish and within 2 weeks all my fish (about 20 in total) were dead.   
But 'tis an ill wind, and there was a spot in the newly revamped kitchen set aside for a new tank. 

As the tank couldn't take up too much floor space, it would have to be a thin tank, and as I wanted it as large a volume as possible it would have to be a tall tank. All meaning a custom tank, and it's ended up as 107cm wide, 75cm high and 35cm deep - about 250l. (Really I would have liked it taller, but this was the limit for 12mm glass. With hindsight this is a very good thing, as I hadn't considered maintenance, and the fact that I can barely reach the bottom as it is!  )
The tank was made by ND, but because we wanted the stand to match the rest of the kitchen units, that has been made by someone else, and the doors are going to be spare cupboard doors we had, but cut down to size. (These should arrive in the net few days.)
This is what it looks like so far.






The stand is possibly a little over engineered, as the vertical strength is provided by pieces of 40mm worktop, as is the base. It's then clad in birch faced ply. It arrived just as a bare box, so I've varnished it myself, and because I get really fussy about details, I've done a little fettling along the way:

I'm hoping all the tank related stuff will fit comfortably in the left hand side (including CO2 if I add that later), and access to the mains socket is in the right hand side. So because I don't know how much stuff will end up moving around in front of the sockets, I've put a small frame in front of the sockets with a sliding piece of perspex, so I can see the switch is on, but the power shouldn't ever get knocked off accidentally.





The heater is a Hydor ETH 300. I wanted to keep everything possible out of sight, so this was the obvious choice. That said, IMHO there isn't a good way to mount it as it comes, and I've read several comments about it being easy to knock the temp dial by accident. So I put in a small shelf with a piece of perspex in front, again so it can be seen but not knocked.





There's still a little tidying to do when it comes to wiring, and I've not got the plumbing in yet, but this is basically what it looks like under the tank at the moment.





The filter is a Rena XP2. 

Much of the kit was spec'd and bought before I'd read up on plants. As a result, I opted for T8 lights, although it seems this may ultimately need adding to. Off the top of my head, the tubes are 38W each, which equates to about 1.3 W/gal, and there's room for another tube if I need.


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## greenjar (17 Apr 2011)

very nicely thought out holder for the heater and very nice tidy job all round. nice to see that attention to detail


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## Steve Smith (17 Apr 2011)

Very well thought out and executed Idris   I love the perspex window/protector   Unfortunately the image of your stand isn't showing right now but I'll be interested to see what it looks like.


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## idris (17 Apr 2011)

Possibly too well thought out  That's why it's take 18 months.

(The first pic looks like it's working for me but let me know if it's still not working properly.)


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## nayr88 (17 Apr 2011)

Excellent mate,

All the long planning has worked well aye, and leads to  much easier maintenance  and for an all together neater tidier job.
Will be good to see how you get on with planting and hardscape being so tall and skinny, will defo make a change to some recent tanks, will you be going for a spraybar on the filter? I think being so tall it would be a good good idea to.

Where did you get the tank and stand mate?


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## idris (17 Apr 2011)

Yes, a spraay bar is a work in progress. 
The Rena XP2 comes with one but it's far too short for my tank. So I've got some clear acrylic pipes I'm going to bend into shape. 

I'm not sure how to position the holes on the spraybar yet - pointing horizontally, virtically down, slightly above the surface, just below etc etc. *Suggestions on this would be very welcome*, as it's going to be a PITA to make it adjustable and I don't really want to have to make it all more than once.

As mentioned the tank was made by ND. http://www.ndaquatics.co.uk/
The stand was made by a small local company who mainly make kitchen, but will take on pretty much anything. 
Neither the tank nor stand were particularly cheap, but since the sizes were completly non standard that was inevitable.  And I'm far from unhappy what I've ended up with.


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## idris (18 Apr 2011)

*Hardscape*

One unusual detail I forgot to mention about the tank:
As only the back is against a wall and the other three sides are all on show, I didn't want to to be able to see pipes and wires hanging down behind it. So the sides of the tank extend an inch past the back. This means the tank appears to go right back to the wall but there is still room to get pipes and wires down the back. There are down sides to this, but it all looks neater as a result.

So on to hardscape etc.

I seriously considered having a photo on the back of the tank – I know this is a bit of a no-no with the planted tank community, but I wanted something that was going to give a sense of a real view in a real river, disappearing into the distance. But none of the picture backings I found really appealed (or were available in large enough sizes) so I played around with some online photos in Photoshop and created this:





I'm pretty happy with it, but then came the dilema. This was going to cost best part of £40. Knowing how this would actually look like by the time it was printed on vinyl (you can guarantee the colours would have been slightly different to what I was looking at on the PC) and with any colouration from the water, and  a load of hardscaping in front of it, well, that was anyone's guess. What if I didn't like it? So I've ended up with a black background. Not _really_ what I wanted, but the safest compromise. 

With the tank being so deep, I figured it's going to need something big in terms of hardscape, or it's just going to look a bit empty. And I've decided to do that with wood rather than rocks. After a lot of searching I ended up with these two pieces via eBay. I was a little nervous about what they'd be like “in the flesh” but I'm actually pretty pleased with them.









The piece in the second picture presented me with a small problem: part of taking 18 months to get this far came down to thinking through almost every detail, especially when it's come to other people making things for me. What I forgot to consider was that I didn't specify the width of the pieces that the support the cover glasses. These are each about 2” wide and meant there was significantly less room to get the wood in. So I had to hack a bit off the bogwood, whilst trying to keep it looking natural. Thankfully it shouldn't be too visible, especially if I cover that bit with moss.

Now I quite like fish like Plecs, but the fact that they're quite nocturnal means they're not going to get seen as much as I'd like. So I thought about having a large cave where the glass makes up the walls. The idea being that there should be plenty of space for fish to hide away from the main part of the tank, but hopefully they'll still be visible from outside the tank. 
This may turn out to be a bad idea, or just not work. I can see that there are potential problems eg Plecs are notoriously messy fish and a large cave will potentially be difficult to get a gravel vac anywhere near. We will see how it goes, and worse case, I just take it out.

It's difficult to show how the cave will look until it's all in the tank, but it's something like this: 





The roof of the cave will be a piece of roofing slate and will be planted on top, a small bonus being some of the plants will not be quite as far from the lights (though I understand that's not always as big a problem as CO2 circulation). It will be supported by pillars and these have been a real commitment to make. 





The pillars are about 5” high and are made of stacks of roofing slate, cut into shapes like the contours of hills on an OS map. Initially I was cutting the slices by just breaking slates up with a hammer, but it was quite easy to break the piece I was working on and it was very wasteful. So I invested in a tungsten carbide cutting tool for my Dremel. It ended up being a really messy job, dust everywhere, but the results were much better. The layers were then glued together with aquarium safe silicone and the whole shape softened and sharp edges removed, again with the Dremel. (The one on the right of the picture has only been stuck together and not smoothed off, the one on the left is much closer to being finished.) All told it's probably about a days work to make each pillar, so I really hope the cave works out!

(With hindsight I would have used something like Milliput, like reef keepers use for anchoring frags, rather than silicon. I think this would have made them a little stronger (I've had to re-glue a couple of layres) and I think they would have looked a slightly better.)

The roof of the cave has a lip, again built up from slate, with the idea that this will retain the substrate that will go on top of it. Hopfully I can grow some moss or similar over the edge to soften it. (My inspiration for this is this …)




(I'm afraid I can't remember where I found this picture, so I can't link to it properly, merely to a copy I saved. I think it was of a tank that took second or third place in an ADA competition, so if someone knows where it might have come from I will gladly link to the appropriate page.)
I'm certainly not expecting to get anything looking this good, but I really liked the over hanging feel to it.

I ended up with a couple of extra chunks of slate when I tried to find an alternative wat to support the cave roof. I have no immediate use for these, so the may end up in the tank somewhere just to ad a little extra shape.

Having read up on the stuff, the substrate is going to be Adakama. I've got about 2 bags of it, which I think should give and average depth of 5cm or so. I toyed with the idea of adding something else as well, but costs were starting to become an issue and I hope this will provide enough nutrients for the plants.


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## Gill (18 Apr 2011)

Excellently Thought out tank.
The Plug Cover is VV Nice indeed, aswell as the Heater stand. 
The committment to making the slate stands is impressive, and i can relate to the use of a dremmel when working with slate. Very Messy but worth it.


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## Ian Holdich (19 Apr 2011)

looking foward to this idris, nice tidy cabinet as well.


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## Gary Nelson (19 Apr 2011)

Very nice design, can't wait to see it develop.... this must be the way forward guys? a tank in the in the same wood to match the kitchen - this would keep my mrs very happy indeed!


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## idris (19 Apr 2011)

Viper - top tip - get it all done at the same time as having a new kitchen fitted, or at least make sure you can still get the same units. Otherwise it get's inordinately expensive.  But I've not discussed the price at home


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## idris (23 Apr 2011)

Spent far too long working on the cave roof yesterday. 



There are going to be substrate and plants above the cave and so I've built a "retaining wall" to stop all the substrate just falling off the edge. (Each of the 4 pieces that make up the wall took about 1/2 hr to cut and I still need to smooth it all off when the silicone has cured!!!)
The wiggly sides with no wall will fit against one of the pireces of bogwood, as if the woor has grown through the roof of the cave.

Having seen what it looks like I wonder whether the edge is going to need softening visually. I was planning on having Dwarf Hair Grass on most of the roof and I now think it might need some moss secured over the front edge, but I don't know how I'd blend the Hair Grass into the moss. 
*Any thoughts or suggestions?*

The bogwood is soaking in a dustbin together the tanins out and I've been practice fabricating inlets and spray bars from clear acrylic pipe. 

I've also finally ordered my first batch of plants. 5 pots each of Amazon Swords and Crypt Wendti as well as 7 pots of Hair Grass. 
I still don't really have a sense of how much ground that will cover, but seeing as I'm starting them emerged and will be ordering some vallisnaris and moss later I can add more later if it's not enough. 
(FWIW I've ordered from PlantsAlive on the basis of cost and (some) positive reports.)


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## Gill (23 Apr 2011)

Absolutely Love it, Is Going to look great when planted up.


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## George Farmer (23 Apr 2011)

Great journal, idris!

I really like the attention to detail you've provided and the explanations behind your decisions. 

Looking forward to seeing this develop.  Thanks for sharing.


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## John Starkey (23 Apr 2011)

Interesting read,this will be something different,and i can,t wait to see how it all turns out,

john.


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## idris (24 Apr 2011)

Thanks for the feedback. I hope the flora and fauna side of the project lives up to the rest.

As mentioned I've been playing with some pipe bending. This is my practice piece so far.



I'm pretty pleased with the intake sieve (the slotted end) although I'll probably take a little more time over it when I make the one that's going in the tank. Initially I tried one with slots that run paralel to the pipe (as per the one that came with my Rena filter) but I just couldn't get that very neat. I considered just drilling holes, but after a little web browsing I saw one with horizontal slots and this has been much easier to make well. It's a little fragile, but once it's in the tank it shouldn't have to take much abuse.

The crooked end is ok, but the problem I've had so far is the pipe flattens a little more than I'd like. I suspect I need to be a little braver with the heat gun and get the plastic a bit softer before I bend it.


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## bigmatt (24 Apr 2011)

Love that intake!
As far as the cave goes could you plant the hairgrass into the moss?  Ive seen it done with Wabis so it might work in the tank!
M


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## idris (24 Apr 2011)

bigmatt said:
			
		

> ... could you plant the hairgrass into the moss? ...


I like the idea. Not sure how to plant that as I've no experience of either and only seen youtubes of planting Hair Grass.  Do you know of any pictures?


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## GHNelson (24 Apr 2011)

Very good
Its gonna be a labour of love for you.
Nice one  
hoggie


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## idris (5 May 2011)

*Plants – the beginning*

My first batch of pants arrived today from http://www.plantsalive.co.uk   




Top left : Dwarf Hair Grass (Eleocharis Parvula) - 7 pots
Bottom left : Crypt Wendtii - 5 pots
Right : Amazon Swords (Echinodorus Amazonicus) - 5 pots

My initial reaction was that I was expecting a bigger package than the one that arrived, but I really felt a bit “in the dark”when it came to ordering quantities. 
I've opted for pots, not entirely going with advice here, but my instinct is that, all other things being equal, a plant with a root is going to be better than a plant without one. Time may yet prove me wrong.

The plan is to _start_ the plants emersed ie growing the plants growing out of the water. This decision was made largely based on an article by Tom Barr http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/g...ion/52332-new-method-start-up-algae-free.html that Garuf   pointed me towards.

When it comes to how many plants, the consensus seems to be in favour of a large bio mass. Well even opting for pants about half the price of Tropica I've still spent £40 on my first batch. And I haven't got everything I know I'm going to want yet (you can't really grow Vallis emerged  ). And I may still want more of what I've already got. But the article above suggests that emerged is a good  way to get plants multiplying quicker, leading to a higher bio mass in less time and costing less money.

But back to the plants I have got …

The Swords certainly look good and healthy – unlike TV personalities, they are taller than I expected (5” to 7” tall) so I'm pretty pleased with that. There are a few damaged leaves, but from what I gather that's not uncommon. A couple of the plants have runners and my guess is that's good.

The Hair Grass again looks healthy, though I had hoped for a little more in the pots. Maybe if I'd bought Tropica?  Who knows. 

The Crypts are significantly smaller than I expected (3” max) but I have no experience of these things, so maybe that's normal, and is an observation, not a criticism of the plants or the suppliers. I assume they'll grow significantly.

Tomorrow I have most of the day to myself, so as of tonight the plants are sharing a bucket of water with an old tank heater in the garage. In some respects I'm not entirely ready for the plants as there is still some finishing work to do on the cave and plumbing, and the plants may stay in the bucket for a day or three … pending responses to this … viewtopic.php?f=21&t=15839

Having built the cave roof as previously pictured, it all looked a little linear and unnatural. So I've added some bits in places and will be removed in others. This is the highest priority for tomorrow, though I'm a little nervous about the silicon not having quite as long to cure as I'd like when I get the Dremel out again. Again, time will tell.

The bogwood has now soaked for a bit over 2 weeks. After the first week I changed the water and it was very very dark. A week on the water was still a little coloured but obviously the bulk of the tannins that are likely to leaching out quickly have done so.


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## Bobtastic (6 May 2011)

idris said:
			
		

> Thanks for the feedback. I hope the flora and fauna side of the project lives up to the rest.
> 
> As mentioned I've been playing with some pipe bending. This is my practice piece so far.
> 
> ...



What did you use to bend your pipe? I tried to pack it with salt, but am looking into bending springs. I'm assuming that you used your dremmel for the inlet?


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## idris (6 May 2011)

I packed the tube with sand rather than salt though just because I had pleanty of play sand and was running low on salt. I considered a spring but discounted it for three reasons
1- I'm looking for quite tight bends and I was concerned about getting it out (which has since had coroborated by a friend) 
2- although it probably wont get seen I didn't want to leave spring marks in the pipe
3- again the sand was free and a pipe spring wouldn't have been.

I think the two keys to this method are getting the sand packed in really tight (lots and lots of tapping, not tamping) and getting the plastic as soft as possible. Otherwise the tube starts to fold a little.

I tried using a Dremel for the intake, but in the end found it easier to do a tidy job with a hack saw.
I covered the pipe in masking take, marked out the cuts on it and then used a mitre block to make sure my cuts were square. Each slot took 2 cuts as they're about 2mm wide. And I finished off the edges and ends of the slots with pin files. 
It was a slow process, but I enjoy doing things like this so it wasn't a chore.
As I said, it's a little fragile and I may have a spiral of slots when I make the one that's going in the tank. (I'll try to remember to take some photos as I go along.)


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## Bobtastic (6 May 2011)

Thanks for the reply. What did you use to seal the ends during the bending process and then the final capping?

I tried to bend a pipe at the weekend and had... mixed results...


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## idris (6 May 2011)

When I was bending the tube I just used a short piece of wooden dowel (about 2"). It wasn't a particularly tight fit so I just wrapped some masking tape round till it fitted.

The final capping was made with a piece of clear acrylic rod to match the tube. The tube is 16/12 so the rod is 12mm and I only used about 3/8" : I was going to use some EMA Plastic Weld to glue it in (about £3 from a model shop) but I found the rod is such a snug fit I actually had to use some wet'n'dry on it to get it in. (The two ends of the rod were gently flame polished with a mini gas torch / soldering iron.)


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## Bobtastic (6 May 2011)

Flipping heck ur garage must be an Aladdin's den of tools! Thanks for the info.


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## idris (7 May 2011)

PMSL. So many I've only used once and frequently not the tools I need 
(I had to borrow a hot air gun  )


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## George Farmer (7 May 2011)

Hi idris

Will your (brilliantly constructed) pipe remain transparent, or eventually get opaque, like many clear plastics do over time?


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## idris (7 May 2011)

For bringing me news like that George, you've just been struck off my Xmas list.  
But being serious for a moment, I have no idea. It's not a problem I've seen mention of before. I'll be quite disappointed if it does. Do you know what causes it and whether that usually happens with acrylic or other clear plastics?


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## idris (9 May 2011)

The last few days haven't entirely go to plan and, although my plants arrived 5 days ago, I've not got any planting done till yesterday. 

I ended up spending more time finishing the slate cave than anticipated, but the cave is kind of the centre piece of the hardscaping so I think it's time well spent. As mentioned the roof and wall all seemed a bit flat and unnatural so it needed some more shape – cue more slate cutting, more glueing and more grinding. Along with fixing one of the towers that came unglued. 

It is _possible_ all the work on the wall may actually go to waste and disappear behind moss if it all looks a little too hard. And as the conventional way to anchor moss seems to be tying it on with cotton I've also drilled small holes in the roof  just behind the wall so there's any easy way to secure the cotton by threading it through the slate. (A picture speaks a thousand words, though I'm not sure this picture will explain enough.)




You can just about see the holes here ...




… and this is a view of the whole cave structure.

It may be over kill but, as the towers that support the cave roof are going to sit directly onto the glass base of the tank, I've got some non-slip mat glued onto the bottom of each of them to stop the glass getting scratched.

The real downer form the last couple of days is that the joiner who was cutting the cabinet doors down (they started as spare kitchen cupboard doors) has proved 
*a)* incompetent 
*b)* lazy 
*c)* just doesn't give a toss about details or 
*d)* just doesn't give a toss about customer satisfaction. 
It's taken him nearly 2 months to do them (only a couple of hours work!) and I could have done a better job myself. If you don't look closely they're all right, but I get hung up on detail and I'm disappointed to say the least. Unfortunately there may be no realistic option but to live with them. The one saving grace is that the tank should be the focus, not the doors! 
_It'll all be fine … it'll all be fine … it'll all be fine …!!!_


*Getting stuck in*

Saturday saw all the hardscaping going into the tank.

First there was then a load of faffing around as I tried to remember how to get the larger of the two pieces of wood into the tank – it's a tight squeeze and it only fits through the top one way. The smaller piece went in very easily.

Next the pillars for the cave.
*Oh boll***s*    
The tower that I had just fixed came unstuck again, but between different layers this time. I could have just tried to sick it back together with silicon again, but a quick dash to a LFS for some Milliput promised a stronger solution. But since Milliput doesn't really work as a thin layer the Dremel came out again and I cut as deep as possible into the two halves of the broken tower so the Milliput could provide some structure as well as adhesion. Unfortunately another two layers came apart in the process, so it was all a much more laboured process than expected – over 2 hrs work! Still, Milliput meant I wasn't going to have to wait 3 days for silicon to cure properly and it should all be stronger.

A bag and a half of akadama went in at this point and was roughly poured around the wood and pillars. Or at least most of it. (The remainder went on top of the cave later as the whole scape came together.) I had a bit of a play with shaping the surface, but it wasn't going to be final as I had to leave some clear space for the 3rd pillar when it was fixed.

So ended Saturday and I have to say it was all starting to feel a little anticlimactic. After 18 months of planning this tank, getting things built, assembling all the parts, and all the research, the project was actually approaching completion. What next? (Thankfully there is another major, and entirely different project waiting in the wings!) Add to that, with most of the hardscape in, the tank was starting to look smaller. Hey ho – more to do yet ...







A couple of front views.




Lfet hand side.




Right hand side.

This was the state at the end of the day. The roof to the cave isn't in place as one of the pillars is missing, and the substrate isn't really as I want it yet.


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## idris (9 May 2011)

*Next morning the final assault started.*

The pillar was fixed and rock solid. So in it went. Inevitably there was a little more Dremeling to do to get all three pillars, and the roof to fit perfectly against each other, the wood and the tank, but the work was minor next to the hours it's taken create them.







A couple of daylight photos, so lots of reflections off the glass I'm afraid. But it shows the cave in it's final stage … less substrate.

A little water was then added and attention turned to the plants.

Having initially thought the Crypts and Hair Grass looked smaller than expected (though in different ways) I take it all back. I'm pretty impressed with what www.plantsalive.co.uk have supplied. I think I'd expected each pot to be pretty much a single plant, but there were about 3 Swords to each pot, 6 Crypts, and from 7 pots of Hair Grass I got about 70 little clumps. Certainly the Swords and Hair Grass have exceeded my hopes. The crypts were still smaller than I expected, only a coupe of small leaves each and on small thin stems, but again I have to say that I have no previous experience and nothing to compare this with.

(Not the best background to show off the plants   )


 Amazons



 Crypts, with the root trimmings by the side.



 Hair Grass, again with the root trimmings by the side.

When it came to planting, I took a lead from the YouTube videos from TGM
The placement has changed form the original plan and this has largely been a result of the quantities of plants and the available planting space I've actually ended up with.

For the Swords I took off the worst damaged leaves, though there were few. I couldn't bring myself to pull too much off. And although the video suggests trimming roots, these were the first plants I tackled and couldn't bring myself to do this. As the plants were taller than expected I've planted these at the sides.

Getting a little braver, I did trim the roots for the Crypts. And as there were more than I expected these have taken up most of the middle foreground. As these felt quite fragile these were quite fiddly to plant. 

The Hair Grass also divided up into far more little clumps than I expected and although I had originally planned to have some of the Hair Grass taking up the foreground, It has all ended up on the roof of the cave.

Although the “correct way” to plant plants seems to be using tweezers, I didn't seen the need to spend money on something I would rarely use. The Swords and Crypts I just used my fingers to plant. With the Hair Grass I used a chopstick as a dibber which worked surprisingly well.

And on that note, as this posting seems increasingly rambling, I think it's time to let the pictures do the talking.




Front view. (You can just about see the crypts at the front.)




Swords at the left.




And Swords at the right.




And the roof of the cave, now covered with adakama and Hair Grass planted.

Thread

I'm pretty pleased with how it's all turned out but I'm wondering about moving the crypts from infront of the cave – as they grow they will probably obscure the front of the cave, and being able to see into it was largely the point of it. I'll possibly move some Hair Grass down to the front.

All comments, and more importantly recommendations and suggestions, would be very, very welcome.


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## a1Matt (10 May 2011)

Looks nice.

I can not see from the pic how dense the crypts are in front of the cave, but I would guess that leaving some there and putting some with the hairgrass would look good (would also stop the hairgrass looking too uniform, and could provide a transition between the hairgrass and wood).


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## idris (10 May 2011)

Thanks Matt. 
I was wondering about that. I don't really have a sense of how big the crypts will get. I like the idea of breaking up the grass "lawn" and softening the the transition at the wood. (The Crypts are about 2"-3" apart.)


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## a1Matt (10 May 2011)

I'd be tempted to put some of them close to the wood at the back, but just pull them forward a little bit so they are not crammed in against it.  Do you know what crypt species you have? Then I can guess how big they will grow...


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## idris (10 May 2011)

Wendtii.


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## a1Matt (10 May 2011)

OK, assuming you stick with the non c02 route and they are normal wendtii (not mi oya or green gecko), then they will probably get around 6" tall.  Very rough guess! So I would put a few about 3 or 4" from the wood.  Maybe staggered slightly.  Entirely up to you though of course


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## sanj (10 May 2011)

Oh I get it now...

Actually that Akadama doesnt look too bad in the photo.


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## idris (10 May 2011)

Sanj, thanks for your comments.
What didn't you get? When you say the Akadama looks OK, can you elaborate? What would it have looked like otherwise?
(Sorry if I'm missing something, but this is my first planted tank so I'm new to all this.)


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## bigmatt (10 May 2011)

i'll be honest - i thought your cave might look a bit of a mess, but all your attention to detail has REALLY paid off! When you get some moss established to obscure the straight edges it's going to look fantastic! What are your plans for taller plants? It's crying out for some MONSTER swords ...


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## Alastair (11 May 2011)

Tanks looking great so far. Looking forward to seeing it all planted and filled. Loved the intake you've made to...can you do me one


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## nayr88 (11 May 2011)

That cave is going to look wild when the hairgrass fills in!! Pulled it of nicely mate. Attention to details has really made this.

Congrats, ill keep watching for updates


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## idris (11 May 2011)

I'm really chuffed with how it's all turning out. And blown away by the approval it seems to have attracted from experienced folk. Especially for my first attempt at aquascaping  Thanks all.

*Bigmatt *- I'm glad to have comfounded your expectations  Having spent  couple of days lookiong at it I'm pretty sure I'm going to go with some moss on the "wall". Having spent so long constructing it I think I'll probably leave some of it visible, but I do want to break up the lines a bit. I was thinking of Java Moss, but any suggestions what would work best (and be easy to grow)? As mentioned, I really like the look of this ...






... but I have no idea what the plant is. Any ideas?

For taller background plants, I've not made any definite decissions yet. I was thinking of a "Vallis curtain" but I think I'd like something less ubiquitous. Am very much open to suggestions, but what ever goes in needs to be low maintainence and not likely to take over in a low tech set up.

*ALt81*- that depends what you're offering in return  I need some moss and some background plants


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## idris (11 May 2011)

As this tank is starting emerged I'm seeding the filter media with some finest vintage mulm I've acquired from a friend's tank ...





… and the pump is circulating about 50l of heated water in the garage. 





The one thing that has struck me today about the filter media supplied by Rena is that there are very few plastic widgets for biological filtering. I suspect some ceramic rings may be on the shopping list. The other consideration is that if I don't put in the included carbon (which many people think is unnecessary) there is room in the filter for something other than the foam, floss and widgets. Any suggestions what's worth adding? I've seen some mention of "water polishing" media, but I know nothing about it. *Suggestions please.*

I've done tiny amount of replanting as I didn't want the Crypts to obscure the front of the cave.



As *a1Matt* suggested, I've swapped the Crypts from immediately in front of the cave with some Hair Grass at the back of the cave roof. Ideally I would have liked to move some more, but even the tiny amount of water in the tank made it a complete nightmare replanting the Hair Grass. (Maybe this is where I should have invested in some tweezers.) Also this has highlighted one of the putfalls of such a tall tank – I can only reach the bottom with one hand, so adjusting anything at a later date is going to be a bit of an undertaking 
I might yet move some more crypts up there, but there is a really nice depression in the wood (it doesn't really show in the photos but it looks a bit like a glacial corrie) that I don't want to obsucre. I shall make a judgemsnt on that when everything has grown in a little.

Despite there being an inch or so of water in the tank, and temperatures of about 24 Celsius, and (from the amount of condensation) I would guess 100% humidity, I am concerned the leaves look as though they could be drying out. I don't recall seeing mention of this in my reading, but as a precaution I am misting the leaves at least once a day. 
(I'm currently researching ferts for emerged misting on another thread.)


----------



## a1Matt (11 May 2011)

I like the rearranging, that was exactly what I had in mind when I wrote my posts.  Just enough to break it up a little and open up the cave.  You can get 0.5m long tweezers, I have a pair and they do not feel as tactile as shorter pairs, but I would watch out for them when you come to future tweaks (bound to happen sooner or later).

In a tank this deep the trimming consideration for moss is paramount in my opinion.  Therefore the first thing that springs to mind mosswise is lomariopsis lineata (aka subwassertang, aka round pellia).
The reason is that when mosses layer the bottom layers get choked and die off.  So they need regular trimming (get some long scissors too!), but! with the lomariopsis as long as you get some inverts mooching through it you can get it pretty deep with no consequences.  I've grown it over 1 foot deep and when I trimmed it the bottom part was 100% healthy.  

or! you could opt for a moss that only needs trimming infrequently due to compact nature of its growth (may take years to grow in though!) in which case fissidens fontanus would be a good choice.

Having said all that, most of the common mosses will be suitable and will attach after a couple of months.

As for background I would go for one of the fancier vallis sp.  americana or natans I think would look nice ( http://www.livingwatersonline.co.uk/plant-stock.htm ), slow enough growers in a low tech environment that you can keep the runners under control.

Let Alt81 have first refusal on your offer, but if he does not want to then I will happily send you some moss in exchange for some custom piping.  I have a few species to choose from


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## bigmatt (11 May 2011)

always happy to be wrong! I'd opt for weeping moss along the front of it cave edge precisely because it will weep down. But i'd also ignore me and take a1matt's advice on moss! You'll be amazed at how much easier things are with proper tools - as the actress said to the bishop ...


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## Alastair (11 May 2011)

a1Matt said:
			
		

> Let Alt81 have first refusal on your offer, but if he does not want to then I will happily send you some moss in exchange for some custom piping.  I have a few species to choose from



Awww not fair. Matts beat me to it now. I've just gotten rid of all my background plants and only have small amount if moss that came from him. 
I have nothing left to give now.      

Saying that, I may have a very tall red tiger lotus that I'll be disposing of soon that you could have anyway if you wanted it. Saves me throwing it if I do
Alastair

Formerly Alt81


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## nayr88 (11 May 2011)

a1Matt said:
			
		

> ).
> 
> In a tank this deep the trimming consideration for moss is paramount in my opinion.  Therefore the first thing that springs to mind mosswise is lomariopsis lineata (aka subwassertang, aka round pellia).
> The reason is that when mosses layer the bottom layers get choked and die off.  So they need regular trimming (get some long scissors too!), but! with the lomariopsis as long as you get some inverts mooching through it you can get it pretty deep with no consequences.  I've grown it over 1 foot deep and when I trimmed it the bottom part was 100% healthy.



agree with that, nothing more annoying when you find rotting moss at the base and bits floating off, you have to keep on top of it, an the pellia it stays good and healthy 

bigmatt- weeping moss would look really cool though your right, with the tank being so tall the trimming to keep it from rotting at the base would be killer haha


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## Tony Swinney (13 May 2011)

Great work Idris   You're making a cracking job of scaping a very tricky shaped tank.  I'd consider cryptocoryne balansae in the back corners to give you some height, it'll grow to over a metre tall, and sways beautifully in any current.

Tony


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## idris (14 May 2011)

End of week one and all may not be going so well.  So all opinions please ...

I'm not unhappy with the crypts, and the grass doesn't seem to be doing anything bad.











But some of the Amazon Swords are not looking so hot 

















Some of the leaves have yellow and/or black bits, as is the end of the longest runner.
Now for the caveats …

On about day 3 I looked at the leaves and thought they looked as though they were a little dry, so I started misting them. And I've tried to do that once or twice a day.

I had intended to put some peat under the akadama. But in all the excitement I forgot.  So there were initially no nutrients for the plants. By day 5 I had acquired some NPK + trace ferts from http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk and, as the instructions are to use a couple of times a week, I have just misted with the ferts once so far.

And as mentioned, the Swords were the first plants I tackled and as a complete Noob I didn't remove all the damaged leaves. I don't know, but I suspect these are the worst leaves.

Diagnosis and/or recommendations please.


----------



## bigmatt (14 May 2011)

flood it and move to full EI dosing mate ... but then i've never used DSM so my advice may not be the best! M


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## idris (14 May 2011)

Too many water changes and too high maintenancefor my taste. Not going to happen.


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## idris (15 May 2011)

Having done some reading over night, I have identified a possible problem, and spotted some evidence of a secondary symptom.

I may have too much water.

Firstly I've read that if there's condensation on the glass the humidity is too high. 
Also that the substrate should be moist, but no more. 
And excessive humidity can cause mould.

Well I've spotted what might be mould - white spots on one of the pieces of wood.




And no only has there been a significant amount of condensation on the glass, there's been about an inch of water above the lowest part of the substrate. Reducing this was a pit of a PITA : initially I thought about syphoning it out, but with nothing but my lungs and a 12mm bore pipe and a 2'6" to raise the water, my lung power isn't sufficient to start the flow.
So I resorted to sponging the water out of the tank. A slow process, and although the water level is no longer visible, the substrate is still wet at best.




As a secondary measure I'm going to leave the tank open for a while to see if evaporation will help.


----------



## a1Matt (16 May 2011)

Your after pic looks like a good amount of water.  I did not realise how much you had in before or I would have said something.

I'd go for 80% humidity. Lower than that and the crypts will suffer as they like really high humidity (up to 95% ime).
Swords like lower humidity (I keep some as normal pot plants in my house), so it may not be possible to keep them both happy.
If I had to err on one side, I would stick with higher humidity as I suspect the swords will be more tolerant.
Stop misting them though!


----------



## Ian Holdich (16 May 2011)

IME the wood goes like that when not dried to its full potential. Shrimp and snails love it! Those swords need a good trim as well.

interesting project!


----------



## NeilW (16 May 2011)

Two tips for your hairgrass
1) Try and separate all the individual blades with a comb. This may sound extremely tedious but I've found emersed hairgrass hates being stuck together for some unknown reason and as soon as the blades are individual you get a boost in growth. 

2) Cut about 5-10mm off the top of all of it to encourage new growth. To get rid off all the clippings just fill with water and net out all the floating bits.


----------



## idris (16 May 2011)

Thanks guys.



			
				a1Matt said:
			
		

> ... I'd go for 80% humidity. Lower than that and the crypts will suffer as they like really high humidity (up to 95% ime).
> Swords like lower humidity ...
> ...Stop misting them though!


Any tips on how to estimate %age humidity?
And is it ok to mist with ferts. (I've got this advice from a Tom Barr thread.)



			
				ianho said:
			
		

> IME the wood goes like that when not dried to its full potential. Shrimp and snails love it! Those swords need a good trim as well.


So the white bits will get munched when it gets flooded, yes?
As for trimming the swords, what should I be trimming, the damaged leaves, or more generally? And when trimming should I just cut back as far as possible? (It's going to be very different to just pull leaves off as the tank is too tall to get two hands to the plants.)



			
				NeilW said:
			
		

> ...Try and separate all the individual blades with a comb.
> ... To get rid off all the clippings just fill with water and net out all the floating bits.


Combing grass? If anyone finds I'm doing that I'll get sectioned!
As for the clippings, are they ok lying on the substrate for a few weeks till I flood the tank?


----------



## Gill (16 May 2011)

Totally Agree with NielW and Ianho. Wood does go like that if not fully dried out. And Yes Shrimp love it. 
And yes cutting the Hairgrass and seperating the indiviual blades will help greatly IME.


----------



## a1Matt (16 May 2011)

idris said:
			
		

> Thanks guys.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A hygrometer will measure humidity.
I got mine off ebay (about £1 for a secondhand exo terra analogue dial one).
I found it interesting how the humidity varied not just by the amount I had the cover glass open, but also by how hot the tank was.  

I guess there is a bit of a paradox misting\not misting the swords.  I'd be inclined not to as that raises their humidity and use substrate fertilisation instead (osmocote or similar), then again it is a good way of feeding them. ....If it was me I would turn it into an experiment and mist one half and not the other and see which fares better


----------



## idris (18 May 2011)

*This is not going well.*

A week and a half in and my Swords are increasingly in a very sorry state.  I don't think there's a single healthy looking leaf on any of the plants.








As per *NeilW*'s recommendations, I have trimmed the Hair Grass and splayed out the blades as best I can. However, having done this, it has revealed a significant proportion of the blades are turning brown.   (This may be because they have spent a week or so in tight clumps.)





Even the Crypts are looking less than happy.   





By my reckoning there is only a limited number of possible causes: 
1 - too much or too little water
2 - too much or too little light
3 - too much or too little nutrients
And since there are 3 species involved, it could be a combination of causes.
But which are responsible is beyond me. *HELP!*
(In case the humidity is a significant factor I have ordered a hygrometer which should arrive in the next day or so.)

And to add insult to injury, I also seem to have a weed. 





Presumably it's come in with one of the other plants, but any ideas what it is and whether I need to worry about it?


----------



## idris (18 May 2011)

Hygrometer arrived and installed.
After a couple of hours it's reading 70%.
I know this has been higher in the last week as the cover glass was open for a while and the condensation has reduced significantly.


----------



## a1Matt (18 May 2011)

I'd leave the weed to see what it grows into.
Can always pull it out later easily enough.

Water level is OK now.

So I would put humidity as main cause.

I've tried swords a few times emersed and my only success is at room humidity.
Crypts need higher humidity than 70%. Aim for 80-90%.
I do not know about hairgrass, as I have never grown that emersed.

I am not sure to be honest, but I suspect that unless your plants were starved before you got them, ferts will not be an issue.  

Not sure about light! I found it wasn't an issue on emersed setups.

By the way, when I grew emersed I just put a handful of osmocote in the substrate (I used akadama too) and that was ferts sorted (for the 2 or 3 months I had the setup).  You can freeze osmocote in ice cubes, then poke the cubes under the plants.
I then left the setup to do its own thing. Just checked to make sure the substrate did not dry up completely. and tweaked how open the cover glass was to get the humidity right. Light was from a window. Hope that helps.


----------



## Gill (18 May 2011)

a1Matt said:
			
		

> I'd leave the weed to see what it grows into.
> 
> I've tried swords a few times emersed and my only success is at room humidity.
> Crypts need higher humidity than 70%. Aim for 80-90%.
> ...



Agree IME Swords do best at room temp - Had them in a Vase and they would grow really well after initial withering. 

Hair Grass - Yes if left clumped together it starts to go brown. The more Splayed out the better, and more frequent smaller groups helps with hairgrass. 
Saying that though I Always use the marginal pond hairgrass as it has been grown emersed, and you get a huge pot for £3.00


----------



## idris (18 May 2011)

a1Matt said:
			
		

> ...Water level is OK now ... I've tried swords a few times emersed and my only success is at room humidity. Crypts need higher humidity than 70%. Aim for 80-90%.


Thanks (again). 

In my state of panic I've been googling loads, and I'm starting to wonder if the water level may actually be part of the problem. As the substrate is 1" - 3" higher at the sides of the tank than at the middle, and the water isn't actually to the top of the substrate anywhere, does the water actually need to be higher. 
In that context, the other possible consideration is whether I've got the Sword's roots deep enough. My guess is that in some places they may be a good 2" above the water and reliant entirely on capillary action through the akdadma. 

And as he bulk of the Hair Grass is on the roof of the cave, my guess is the substrate it's planted in could be draining far too much.

I'm starting to wonder if I should cut my losses, abandon DSM, strip out the blackened leaves and flood the tank. 

Any thoughts?


----------



## Alastair (18 May 2011)

Flood it


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## idris (18 May 2011)

Thanks Al. A partisan voice me thinks.


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## Alastair (18 May 2011)

He he. I just think your giving yourself more work to do than is needed....that's just my personal opinion though mate. I thought about it but in the end I know I wouldn't have been able to sit looking at it like that for long. A glass or two of wine later and I'd have the hose pipe in their


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## a1Matt (18 May 2011)

I think you have enough water.The roots do not have to sit in water, they just need to be wet... think of giving them the same water as you would a well watered houseplant.

I also think your never going to get all the plants in there happy while emersed as there requirements are too far apart... might be better to just flood it.  But! If you do flood it and stay low tech you will have a long wait for the hairgrass to grow in.  

If it was me I would grow the hairgrass on separately in a propagator and have the main tank flooded from day one.
or
flood it, put co2 on it, get it grown in, then wean it off co2 (an easy option if you have the kit already lying around).


----------



## idris (18 May 2011)

Definitely want to stay low tech. 
Maybe I'm just being impatient, but the Swords apparently dying in days has shaken what confidence I had. 

What do you think about flooding the tank to the height of the cave. The Crypts and Swords would then be submersed and the bulk of the Hair Grass would be emersed.


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## Alastair (18 May 2011)

You can only but try mate. You have far more patience than I'd ever have lol..my hairgrass has finally settled in, and it's been in there nearly 2 months now..growth is finally happening...


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## Alastair (18 May 2011)

Ps, whilst your waiting for growth, you could start taking orders for acrylic spraybars and intakes ha ha ;0)


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## idris (23 May 2011)

To quote from Ghostbusters, *never cross the streams.*

Over the last week, things haven't been going well, and there have been a lot of people saying flood the tank. So more research. And with the help of the the likes of Ceg, I have learnt more about  the pros and cons of the DSM. (Every time I think I'm getting the hang of this aquarium lark it turns out I know bugger all!)

So I decided to flood the tank.

_Then_ I read Ceg's next offering of expertise … and kind of wished I hadn't flooded it. 

As part of the flooding process there was a bit of rushed pipe bending (and in the process of rushing it, I forgot one of the lessons I'd learnt from my earlier experiments and they're not as good as they should be.  blahblahblahblah!) At the moment the pipes are temporary – there are no holes in the spray bar, just a spare nozzle taped on the end, and the intake has the stock Rena sieve taped on the end. They will be finished properly as soon as possible.

To make life “easier” I have only put about 8” of water in the tank so far. (About 60 litres.)






This covers all the Hair Grass (including on top of the cave), all the Crypts and all but the tips of the tallest Swords' leaves … and most of these are dying anyway.  I decided not to fully flood the tank on a couple of grounds:
1 – I figure the first few weeks are going to involve the most maintenance and less water means less getting wet for me. 
2 – it gives me the opportunity to keep an eye on the floor as it becomes more loaded, and how the tank settles on it's polystyrene pad. (I'm not nervous about this. Honest.)
3 – it means there is less water above the plants to absorb the light, and the surface area to volume ratio is reduced, so there should be improved gas exchange. Both of these will, I hope, be of some benefit whilst the plants are establishing.

Having flooded the tank, I then read the afore mentioned comments form Ceg. One factor of which I remain oblivious, is whether my plants were initially grown emersed or submersed. Now there had been some signs of new growth on some of the Swords (the plants that have suffered the worst), and it seems that whilst those leaves that have died already may have been submersed form leaves suffering from being emersed, the new growth may well be emersed form leaves that will likely suffer from being submersed. Hey ho.  The water's in now and I'm not in a hurry to take it out. We shall see how things go.

I can't say whether flooding has made the situation worse, but with no water in the tank it was harder to see quite how many of the leaves had died. Now that the decaying shadows that used to be leaves are gently wafting to and fro in the current, the horror is all to plane to see. 
I've tidied up many of the casualties 





This plant floated free in the process and appears to have had it almost completely   although I replanted the roots in deluded hope.





… and this is the pile of over 25 leaves I removed.   





These are what's currently left of the Swords.









Whilst I've trimmed off the truely dead leaves, I've resisted the urge to remove leaves with some green left. I'm assuming that whilst there is still some chlorphil in the leaves they're still photosynthesising and still have some worth.

The Crypts and Hair Grass have shown no significant changes since their last photo call, except that although the tank has only been flooded for 3 days, the Hair Grass is developing brown filamental algae.  (Not great pictures but you can just about see it on a couple of the clumps.)









The one thing I am considering at this stage is CO2. I can't justify the cost of a pressurised system, so I'll probably go for a Schweppes bottle, ordinary air line, and an air stone, all of which I have lying around. Not a brilliant system, and not long term, but it's free. (There is even some yeast in the cupboard  ) I know that algae can benefit from CO2 as well as plants, but I'm wondering whether this might be of benefit at this stage.

I know I'm probably being impatient, and the whole thing isn't going great just now, but *thoughts from the experts please?*


----------



## greenjar (24 May 2011)

Hi Idris

I'm no expert but I would say that if you going to go for CO2 then take the plunge and get a pressurised system straight off. The inability to control the output of the diy CO2 may just be more trouble than its worth in the long run.


----------



## foxfish (24 May 2011)

I must agree - pressurised C02 all the way.   
 Even thought the C02 will give a fresh set of issues to deal with, ultimately the gas will give you a beautiful tank much faster, lusher looking & in a fraction of the time it would take without it.
I have tried immersed stats a few times without much success although I have had more success using propagators outside.
If you go for the gas I would be tempted to start afresh with new plants, you could try to save the ones you have ( :? ) by putting them in some rich garden soil in a propagator in full sun?


----------



## idris (24 May 2011)

idris said:
			
		

> I can't justify the cost of a pressurised system


Humble appologies, I thought underlining it would help make it obvious enough. 

 *I can't justify the cost of a pressurised system!!!*


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## Dan Crawford (24 May 2011)

Hi, there appears to be a few issues in your tank, the main one being CO2 IMO There is simply no substitute for good CO2!

What sort of flow do you have in the tank? Now that you've flooded it it needs to be treated like any other tank. It needs proper filtering, proper flow, proper CO2, proper ferts and proper lighting. Not doing it properly to save yourself some effort is counterproductive and will only cause problems like the ones you are seeing now.


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## nayr88 (24 May 2011)

Chill pal.

If you cant justify then its time to get a couple of yeast bottles set up 
Yourll have to be really ontop of the change overs and get your mix on point. When I used it I had it diffusing via a standard ceramic disc glassware and the bubbles rising into the filter outlet....this worked great and gave a really good spread of fine bubbles across the tank. HOWEVER!!! I will say others have reported filter damage when doing that, personally I didn't but I have to say,....but will also add other have used the technique for long term and had no problems sooooo its you call. 

Turn that frown upside down buddy  haha


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## Bobtastic (24 May 2011)

idris said:
			
		

> The one thing I am considering at this stage is CO2. I can't justify the cost of a pressurised system, so I'll probably go for a Schweppes bottle, ordinary air line, and an air stone, all of which I have lying around. Not a brilliant system, and not long term, but it's free. (There is even some yeast in the cupboard  ) I know that algae can benefit from CO2 as well as plants, but I'm wondering whether this might be of benefit at this stage.
> 
> I know I'm probably being impatient, and the whole thing isn't going great just now, but *thoughts from the experts please?*



The way I understand it is that inconsistent Co2 levels can trigger MORE algae so using DIY Co2 may cause more problems than the "solve". 

I agree with Dan, it that cutting corners to make things "easier" on yourself doesn't usually work out and I can speak from experience. I have one failed scape/tank under my belt and I'm lining myself up for my second! 

Now you've flooded the tank you're gonna have to change the water regularly, this will help with any algae problems.


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## nayr88 (24 May 2011)

I'd say as long as you keep on top of switching the bottle of yeast mix over when one begins to drop bubble rate...also make sure the one you swap it for has been set up and giving of co2 at a close ratio to the one you swap it for.

It worked well for me, but you do have to be on top of your yeastage haha


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## Bobtastic (24 May 2011)

Fair enough Ryan, don't forget the check valves! U don't want a tank full of yeast mix. 

I personally think it's a little soon to be jumping on the "Co2 will fix it!" bandwagon. The plants aren't dying because they didn't have enough Co2, it was because they didn't have the right humidity/water. Cryps and Swords should be able to grow happily in a low tech setup.


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## chrisjj (24 May 2011)

What about liquid CO2?

I'm no expert, but I also cannot afford the initial outlay of a CO2 sysyem, but am happy to buy Easycarbo every so often.

I had algae problems in my 72ltr tank (60ltr water).

I started dosing 1ml easycarbo per day & all algae issues were solved (in conjunction a bit of messing around with lights & liquid ferts).  I have now increased the dose to 1.5ml.  This is obviously a very small dose, but has acheived balanced & constant conditions with good plant growth and no algae issues. 

So with a 250ltr tank, I'm guessing around 200-220ltrs water due to your decor displacement.  You could start by adding 5-6ml & see what happens.

So a 500ml bottle (say £15?) would last you approx 3 months - £60 per year.

This is just what worked on my tank, but may be an option for consideration.......


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## faizal (24 May 2011)

Yes,..Idris. I think if you can't afford a pressurized co2 system right now,...then as chrissjj points out,...you'd be better off with liquid carbon.

I am really sorry for your troubles but it's also probably a good idea to lower those lighting levels first for now. Just as clive often points out,....to compensate and help the plants to settle in into the submerssed environment.

I am definetely not an expert too but in your situation I would probably
1. Lower the lighting level as much as I can. 
2. Reduce the photoperiod to about 5 hours. Add some floating plants to help absorb any NH4 or any of the other bad thingees
3. Keep tank & filter clean.
4. Water change every other day & then dose liquid carbon & appropriate nutrients for the day.
5. Keep the flow up in view of your deep tank etc
6. remove any browining leaves that are still attached to your submerged plants. Only keep the healthy looking leaves. It could also help if you keep some Egeria densa i suppose just as a temporary nutrient absorbing plant. You could remove it later on. I'd make sure my plants are small with less leaves so as to reduce the co2 stress on that plant,...and hence help them with their current transition phase. I'm not sure if this is right,....just seems like the right thing to do.

Just some thoughts. I'm sure there's more to it but unfortunately that's all I can come up with.

Wish you all the best.

Faizal


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## a1Matt (24 May 2011)

I'd of replied sooner, but I missed that the journal had been updated.



			
				Bobtastic said:
			
		

> The plants aren't dying because they didn't have enough Co2, it was because they didn't have the right humidity/water. Cryps and Swords should be able to grow happily in a low tech setup.


Wise words.  Always remember why things did not go right.

Damaged leaves...
Unless it is just a little bit of damage on the edge of the leaf, I'd cut the damaged leaves off of the swords, as the plant will not be getting much use from a heavily damaged leaf.

Flooding...
Now it is wet it is best to flood it completely now, get the filtration going, dose ferts. Get into a routine.
Tweaking the water levels here and there will mess the plants around as they will try to readjust to each change of conditions and will not thrive.  Stability is key.  (You'd be amazed what you can grow low tech with a stable tank and a lot of patience.)


Co2 or not....
Personally I would not bother and stick with low tech.
But all the options are valid, so it is your choice.

If you are not fussed about the health risks of using it (I know I am), then I think liquid carbon is a good choice.

DIY is also an option, but like people say it can be tricky to get right, and 250l (larger tank) makes the task tougher still.
It worked for me well in a 160l with a DIY reactor (google: barr internal venturi reactor).

Hope that all helps


----------



## idris (24 May 2011)

_*A big big thanks to everyone for their input. *_



			
				Dan Crawford said:
			
		

> ...IMO There is simply no substitute for good CO2!...


Tom Barr would disagree.
http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/433-Non-CO2-methods?highlight=co2+free


			
				Dan Crawford said:
			
		

> ...What sort of flow do you have in the tank? ... It needs proper filtering, proper flow, proper CO2, proper ferts and proper lighting. Not doing it properly to save yourself some effort is counterproductive and will only cause problems like the ones you are seeing now.


Flow = aprox 8x tank per hour, delivered with flow across the full width of the tank at the opposite end to the filter intake. 
Light = aprox 4 W/gal (UK)
Ferts = http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/aquarium-plant-nutrition/82-aquarium-plant-nutrition.html - dose as per instructions
As you will see from the journal, there is nothing in this setup that's about cutting corners to save effort. Not using pressurised CO2 is about saving cash. (That said, if anyone wants to give me the gear for free, I'll be happy to use it.  )



			
				nayr88 said:
			
		

> Chill pal.
> 
> If you cant justify then its time to get a couple of yeast bottles set up
> Yourll have to be really ontop of the change overs and get your mix on point. When I used it I had it diffusing via a standard ceramic disc glassware and the bubbles rising into the filter outlet....


Feeling a little more chilled now thanks. Just a moment of frustration at my own failure to use a large enough font when I originally typed "I can't justify the cost of a pressurised system".

As stated, yeast bottle(s) and airstone is one _current_ contemplation, if it will be of benefit in the circumstances. (Liquid carbon is the other but I'll come to that in a minute.) I was also hoping to have the outlet near the filter intake as you suggest, assuming the bubbles are fine enough to not worry me from a pump engineering POV. If not, a ceramic diffuser might be an expense I can swallow comfortably.



			
				nayr88 said:
			
		

> I'd say as long as you keep on top of switching the bottle of yeast mix over when one begins to drop bubble rate...also make sure the one you swap it for has been set up and giving of co2 at a close ratio to the one you swap it for...


I was thinking about disconnecting the CO2 overnight (corresponding to the photoperiod +/- dissolving time) and use this as an opportunity to keep an eye on the CO2 output. How long does a 2l yeast bottle last at eg 2bps?



			
				Bobtastic said:
			
		

> ...Now you've flooded the tank you're gonna have to change the water regularly, this will help with any algae problems.


But algae occurring within 3 days of the initial flood? Surely that's gotta be excessive?



			
				Bobtastic said:
			
		

> Fair enough Ryan, don't forget the check valves!...


Thanks Bob, I'd forgotten about those! 



			
				Bobtastic said:
			
		

> I personally think it's a little soon to be jumping on the "Co2 will fix it!" bandwagon. The plants aren't dying because they didn't have enough Co2, it was because they didn't have the right humidity/water. Cryps and Swords should be able to grow happily in a low tech setup.


I was hoping someone would chime in with that perspective   



			
				chrisjj said:
			
		

> What about liquid CO2?...
> I started dosing 1ml easycarbo per day & all algae issues were solved ...
> So with a 250ltr tank, I'm guessing around 200-220ltrs water due to your decor displacement.  You could start by adding 5-6ml & see what happens.
> So a 500ml bottle (say £15?) would last you approx 3 months - £60 per year...


Thanks Chris. Very useful information.  



			
				faizal said:
			
		

> ...you'd be better off with liquid carbon...
> Lower the lighting level ... Reduce the photoperiod to about 5 hours. Add some floating plants ...
> ... remove any browning leaves that are still attached to your submerged plants. Only keep the healthy looking leaves. It could also help if you keep some Egeria densa i suppose just as a temporary nutrient absorbing plant...


Thanks Faizal. Some things there I had not considered.
Removing all leaves that have any brown wouldn't leave very much  
Adding nutrient absorbing plants seems at odds with keeping fert levels up. Can you clarify please?



			
				a1Matt said:
			
		

> ...Wise words.  Always remember why things did not go right...
> Unless it is just a little bit of damage on the edge of the leaf, I'd cut the damaged leaves off of the swords, as the plant will not be getting much use from a heavily damaged leaf...
> Now it is wet it is best to flood it completely now, get the filtration going, dose ferts. Get into a routine.
> Tweaking the water levels here and there will mess the plants around as they will try to readjust to each change of conditions and will not thrive.  Stability is key...
> ...


Thanks for confirmation of Bob's observation on cause and effect.
*Re Damaged leaves.* I'm currently working on the principal that some partially damaged leaves is better than none at all.  
*Re Flooding and stability.* What are the mechanisms relating to adjusting to the amount of water in the tank? (I think that question makes sense.) I'd like to keep the water level lower for practical reasons, but if that's counter productive I have no issue with fully flooding. But I would be interested to understand the reasons first.
*Re Health risks of liquid carbon* I doubt this will trouble me but health risks are news to me. What are the concerns?
And I'm way ahead of you on reading up on Tom Barr's reactor, but thanks anyway.


----------



## a1Matt (24 May 2011)

idris said:
			
		

> *Re Flooding and stability.* What are the mechanisms relating to adjusting to the amount of water in the tank? (I think that question makes sense.) I'd like to keep the water level lower for practical reasons, but if that's counter productive I have no issue with fully flooding. But I would be interested to understand the reasons first.



I was thinking that with the water level as low as it is you probably do not have the filter turned on.
So that would be the biggest reason, as the plants will do better with the flow and biological filtration provided by the filter. 

Sorry, I just read my post and what I wrote did not properly reflect what I was thinking (rushing to type while at my day job).  I meant to get across that I was also thinking in general terms of picking a strategy and sticking to it overall, not just with regards to water level.  For instance if you dosed liquid carbon for only 1 week, it would probably be less helpful to the plants than if you just stuck low tech throughout (because of the time it would take them to adjust to the changes).  

To put it another way around, what would be your motivations for not flooding fully?
(At the end of the day it has to work for you and how you want to run the tank  )



			
				idris said:
			
		

> *Re Health risks of liquid carbon* I doubt this will trouble me but health risks are news to me. What are the concerns?
> And I'm way ahead of you on reading up on Tom Barr's reactor, but thanks anyway.



Scarred hands short term and breathing issues long term.  I chatted about it in one of my journals recently: viewtopic.php?f=49&t=15567&p=163759&hilit=vivarium+nano+liquid+carbon#p163725 (which in turn links to another more comprehensive thread)

Good to see you on the case with the Tom Barr reactor.  I made mine from an old gravel vac and a £2 Hailea pump. Worked a treat


----------



## faizal (24 May 2011)

idris said:
			
		

> Adding nutrient absorbing plants seems at odds with keeping fert levels up. Can you clarify please?



Hi Idris,...
I am truly sorry if I had confused you with my very limited & premature (newly gained) knowledge    but the rationale behind my advice was this.

1. Keeping the nutrient levels up should aid the plants in getting all their nutrients during their most difficult phase (i.e. transition into the new submersed environment) along with lower light levels among other things.

2. Adding nutrient absorbing plants should decrease the chances of any NH4 spikes while your tank is settling in to prevent any algal attacks. Yes those plants might take a big share of some of the nutrients that you are trying to provide your primary plants but I think if you are dosing Modified EI ( should you choose to take the liquid carbon route) or Tom Barr's non co2 fertilization regime or even full Ei ( if you decide to go pressurized),....then there should still be,...in theory a lot of nutrients left in the tank for your primary plants to take advantage of.

I hope that helped.   
Faizal


----------



## idris (24 May 2011)

a1Matt said:
			
		

> I was thinking that with the water level as low as it is you probably do not have the filter turned on ... I was also thinking in general terms of picking a strategy and sticking to it ... what would be your motivations for not flooding fully?
> ...
> Scarred hands short term and breathing issues long term ...


Yeah, the filter is on and has been maturing with 2nd hand mulm for a couple of weeks, independant of the tank. So hopefully that is helping. (I've not got round to testing the water yet.  )

In terms of adding CO2, be it liquid of yeast based, my thought was that it might be worth getting the plants up and running with it and then reducing it slowly. Though I have no sense of apropriate time scales for application or weaning.
The CO2 fluids' "hazchem" doesn't fill me with enthusiasm, though I am interested that the active ingredients seem to vary between the different brands.

Thanks for the clarification Faizal.

Just for some further context, I've removed yet more leaves from the Swords and the Crypts are looking pretty poor. This is how bad they have got ... 




... though the fact that there is a small green shoot and the roots are white gives me some hope, even if they are a shaddow of what hey were when they arrived in the post.


----------



## a1Matt (24 May 2011)

There is hope in that plant 
It is only when the rhizome goes mushy that it is game over with crypts.


----------



## faizal (25 May 2011)

idris said:
			
		

> Thanks for the clarification Faizal.



You are most welcome. But I didn't come up with those ideas by myself. I only sort of repeated what I learned from clive, a1matt , mark & brenmuk among others here @ UKAPS. 

I wish you all the luck with your amazing new tank. I could never come up with such interesting ideas for a scape like you have,....very exotic.


----------



## Bobtastic (25 May 2011)

a1Matt said:
			
		

> There is hope in that plant
> It is only when the rhizome goes mushy that it is game over with crypts.



Yep. I'm always amazed at how the cryps can melt/die back to the substrate at one point and then happily grow back as healthy as ever!


----------



## Dan Crawford (25 May 2011)

Hiya, I was under the same impression as Matt, since I could see the spray bar which was not running then I presumed that the tank wasn't filtered/has no flow. So you do have a filter running on this tank right?


			
				idris said:
			
		

> As you will see from the journal, there is nothing in this setup that's about cutting corners to save effort.


I never mentioned you were cutting corners, just saving yourself some effort....


			
				Dan Crawford said:
			
		

> Not doing it properly to save yourself some effort is counterproductive and will only cause problems like the ones you are seeing now.


It was these comments that made me come to this conclusion....


			
				idris said:
			
		

> To make life “easier” I have only put about 8” of water in the tank so far. (About 60 litres.)





			
				idris said:
			
		

> ]1 – I figure the first few weeks are going to involve the most maintenance and less water means less getting wet for me.



One thing that has just sprung to mind is the relatively small amount of water in comparison to the amount of lighting. Forgive me if this has been mentioned but just at the minute I don't have time to read through everything.
I'm sure I don't need to tell you this but it may be helpful to others....The more light you throw at the plants = the harder they are driven - the harder they are driven = the higher the demand for nutrients and CO2.

If I was in your situation, which of corse I'm not, I'd fill the tank up and treat it the same as any other tank. When we buy plants from the shop they are grown in very similar conditions to yours so I see no reason to treat the tank any differently.


----------



## idris (25 May 2011)

Dan - Sorry, wasn't trying to pick a fight. Your input is genuinly appreciated. Sometime's I'm a little blunter than I intend 

I confess I thought it implicit that the pump was running but I do understand the confusion. My mistake.

Just to clarify why I say "make life easier". The tank is deeper than my arms are long, and the top of the tank is higher than my shoulder. So I have to stand on a chair just to get access to it, and if I flood it fully, even with scissors and tweesers a foot long, each time I need to tend to most of the plants will mean arms in water above the elbow and probably a change of clothes, if not a shower. Add to that it is nigh on impossible to get two hands in the tank such that I could use the tweasers and scissors on lower plants at the same time. And it is pretty difficult to see what you're doing even as it is. 
The tallest plants at the moment are the swords, and there is at least 18" between the tips of any of the leaves and the top of the tank, never mind any _healthy_ leaves. 
If I flood the tank fully, my misguided choice of tank dimensions will quickly become even more of an irritation than they already are, I will get wet, there will not be the oportunity to keep an eye on any movement in the floor as it is porgessively loaded (a small concern I alluded to in an earlier post), and I would expect the ferts and CO2 to be in a significabtly lower concentration than if I maintain the current level. 
So I see no benefit to adding over 150l more water.

I take your point on light levels and it would be easy for me to half the wattage and/or reduce the photoperiod. 
Suggestions on prefference?
I'm currently working on recommendations to use a 12hr photoperiod (sorry, can't remember where from) and from most of what I have read, I was under the impression that 4W/gal is not a bad level of lighting for a planted tank. So I'm a little confussed. My best guess is that this may be too high for a low tech tank, which this obviously is. 

I'm also a little uneasy about the way the maths for the W/gal rules are generally interpreted, as to me they seem to assume a constant ratio of biomass to volume of water: in my case, even if I increase the water to about 400% of it's current level, by depth alone, the same number of plants will not need any diffeent amount of light (other than the fact that slightly more light will be absorbed and or disipated by the increased amount of water above them). I'm no botanist (hands up who hadn't spotted that  ) but I don't see how it can be a simple linear relationship. 

Equally would not increasing the volume increase the potential for dead spots in terms of circulation of CO2 and ferts?

Your thoughts?


----------



## spyder (26 May 2011)

Someone can explain this better than me but the WPG rule is not linear. As the tank size scales up the amount of light needed doesn't scale up as much. Maybe half wattage and around 6hrs would be a good place to start.

Sorry I can't be of any more help.


----------



## faizal (26 May 2011)

Dear Lord,....I know that I am well over my league here but I will try to give the best I can. So if anyone here thinks I am talking gibberish please do interupt & I will take a rear corner seat.  :silent: 

Okay so the tank is 107 cm by 75cm by 35cm = 75 US Gallons . Unless I am missing something I don't see how you have 4 WPG worth of lighting because if I remember it correctly,...you said you had a pair of T8s worth 38 watts each. So that puts us at about 1 wpg. Which is not too much light unless you have changed it & I am talking gibberish. 

If you did change the lights then I should think that the pair of T8s that you had started with there should do well under the current circumstance. The only way we can be sure of the lighting levels is with a PAR meter. The rest is simply guess work.Our aim is to get your light levels down.

You can think about this one or you can dump the idea but just for what it is worth,....  here we go:

1. Fill up the tank 3/4 th way up (i.e. height from the tank bottom to water surface should be about 22 cm). Don't ask me why just seems like a nice number. Also I remember Clive saying tanks deeper than 2 feet will have trouble co2 getting to the substrate level unless you have a Honda Boat engine for a filter.This should get us the middle ground that you seek in terms of tank management (working around the tank with the plants) & more water volume that we definetely need in that tank. I don't think there should be any MAJOR issues with respect to increasing the water volume & arisal of dead spots as long as you :

a) Mount the spray bar horizontally across the whole rear wall of the tank just below the water surface & make   sure that the water jet sprays that come out of that bar are travelling as horizontally as possible & hit the front glass.

b) You adhere with the 10 times flow rate with respect to your filter's GPH rating.


**Minor tweakings can always be done as the tank progresses & as and when any co2 deficient symptoms should arise.


2. Maintain the current height & position of your lights but change the tubes to T8s. There might be some distance between the lights & the water surface. This should be okay. Maintain with the 2 T8 lights that you began with. 

3. Dose Liquid carbon atleast for another 3-4 weeks. From there ,...you can either wean down to a non co2 set up or step up to pressurized co2.

4. Keep the tank & filters clean. 

5. Dose accordingly ( Full EI if u choose to use co2 pressurized ; Modified EI for the liquid carbon route)

6. Add some excess nutrient absorbing plants like Egeria,etc I think You would be needing more plants in there to help the tank settle in. Strip big leaves off the future new plantlets and just plant them in with a few new shoots. Somebody correct me if I am wrong but I think we do this to reduce the risk of co2 stress on that particular plant because that new plant could have been previously grown in a co2 enriched environment.
7. Be persistent with the above  routine in order to provide the plants with a stable environment to help them settle in.

If I have missed out on anything I am very sorry because I can't think of anything else to add . If I AM WRONG ,....PLEASE DO CORRECT ME.

All grand advises like a pro,...and to think that I actually bombed my attempt at a planted tank  .

Faizal


----------



## idris (26 May 2011)

spyder said:
			
		

> Someone can explain this better than me but the WPG rule is not linear. As the tank size scales up the amount of light needed doesn't scale up as much. Maybe half wattage and around 6hrs would be a good place to start.
> Sorry I can't be of any more help.


Thanks Spyder, good to know. Any idea where I can find more detail, as nothing I've seen to date has talked explicitly about variable ratios?




			
				faizal said:
			
		

> ...the tank is 107 cm by 75cm by 35cm = 75 US Gallons ... I don't see how you have 4 WPG worth of lighting because ... you had a pair of T8s worth 38 watts each. So that puts us at about 1 wpg.


I've currently only got 60l of water in the tank and have had 2x 38W T8s running. So _roughly_ 4W/gal at present, but _not_ when full



			
				faizal said:
			
		

> ...Fill up the tank 3/4 th way up (i.e. height from the tank bottom to water surface should be about 22 cm)...


22com is roughly what I've got in the tank at the moment, but that's a long way soouth of 3/4 full. Which are you recommending?



			
				faizal said:
			
		

> ...tanks deeper than 2 feet will have trouble co2 getting to the substrate ...


I'm aware of this is a potential issue, but I wasn't planning a "planted tank" when I spec'd it and didn't know this.



			
				faizal said:
			
		

> ...Maintain the current height & position of your lights ...


For various reasons, changing this is not an realistc option anyway.



			
				faizal said:
			
		

> ...I think You would be needing more plants in there to help the tank settle in...


That's on the cards. I left out taller plants to start with due to the abortive attempt as DSM: tall plants will go at the back, but they wouldn't have worked that way.


----------



## Bobtastic (26 May 2011)

idris said:
			
		

> I take your point on light levels and it would be easy for me to half the wattage and/or reduce the photoperiod.
> Suggestions on prefference?
> I'm currently working on recommendations to use a 12hr photoperiod (sorry, can't remember where from) and from most of what I have read, I was under the impression that 4W/gal is not a bad level of lighting for a planted tank. So I'm a little confussed. My best guess is that this may be too high for a low tech tank, which this obviously is.
> ?



I would definitely reduce your photoperiod as 12hrs is very high, certainly when first starting out. Cut it in half at lease and then you can turn it up (if you like) once the plants are more established.

I personally see Watt per gallon as voodoo! As I understand it's based on T8s so become useless with any other types of tube. But also with currently thinking lighting doesn't need to be that strong anyway. As well, I assume it's based on a "standard" tank size/ratio, which yours isn't. 

I think our experts seem to be advocating constancy so what ever you do make sure you stick with that plan for a while at least. If you change something, just change one thing, that way you'll know if it causes a problem that that one thing is the cause. 

I would say that if you filled your tank to the top and set up everything to how you intend it to be then at least you'll know and get used to how you'll have to be working with your tank. If you get dead spots you're going to get them regardless and then you can identify them and over come them. That being said, I can understand why you don't want to! I wouldn't want to be my nipples wet every time I reach for the bottom of the tank!


----------



## faizal (26 May 2011)

idris said:
			
		

> 22com is roughly what I've got in the tank at the moment, but that's a long way soouth of 3/4 full. Which are you recommending?



 I am so sorry Idris!!! 3/4th full was what I meant.  Err,...that would be 56 cm then.   Like I said,...I'm a bit over my league here. This is like just completing my swimming lessons then deciding to take a toss into the ocean  I think I should go & sit in that rear corner now. :silent:


----------



## a1Matt (26 May 2011)

All good comments from others I think 
Here is another angle to think of (as I just can not get my head past the tank not being filled completely!)...

How are you doing your water changes?
If you rig up a DIY water changer you could easily drain the tank down to a convenient level when you need to work on it.
Then fill up again after.
Only takes a few minutes* to do and it would remove the maintenance issue of it being a PITA having the tank fully filled 


*This is assuming you include a pump in your system.  If you use gravity\siphon, maybe 30min all in on a tank your size.
Paulo did a great thread on his DIY water changing system here: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=1729


----------



## Alastair (26 May 2011)

Bobtastic said:
			
		

> That being said, I can understand why you don't want to! I wouldn't want to be my nipples wet every time I reach for the bottom of the tank!


----------



## Bobtastic (26 May 2011)

a1Matt said:
			
		

> If you rig up a DIY water changer you could easily drain the tank down to a convenient level when you need to work on it.
> Then fill up again after.
> Only takes a few minutes* to do and it would remove the maintenance issue of it being a PITA having the tank fully filled
> 
> ...



I have one of these DIY python syphons and they are a life saver on larger tanks! I have mine connected to a Maxi-Jet pump and it sends it down the kitchen sink with very little fuss. In fact I have more trouble getting the water temp right on the mixer tap than anything else!


----------



## idris (26 May 2011)

I hope my apparent reluctance to flood fully does not come across as disagreement with those far more experienced than myself.

I'm using one of these for water changes.





I guess my reservation about filling it completely is that I don't see how it helps. (That does not translate as I think it won't!) I understand what has been said about stability, but what specific advantage would there be to having an additional 20" / 150l of empty water above the plants? 

(Also I have been fishing out more dead leaves on a pretty much daily basis, and changing 100l of water a day seems a little excessive / wasteful to me. That said, the number of dead leaves to remove is reducing, so I am increasingly open to persuasion.)


----------



## a1Matt (26 May 2011)

I take no offense at your posts, I quite like my views being challenged. I should add I take no umbrage if you do not fill it  

Stability really was my main reason.

In terms of optimum water level one may have better flow, better light levels, plant waste more diluted (therefore less likely to get algae), etc - but I doubt there is much in it either way.

Another thing to think of is, not just for the plants, but for all aquariums, a larger water column equals a more, um, stable (sorry can not stop myself saying that word   ) tank.


----------



## faizal (26 May 2011)

idris said:
			
		

> ...... what specific advantage would there be to having an additional 20" / 150l of empty water above the plants?



Hi Idris. The only reason I could think of would be in terms of aesthetics. Please don't get me wrong here but it would appear like so much wasted space in such a tall tank. Unless  ,.....now I am only bringing this up since you are increasingly open to suggestions,....

1. Fill her up till about 45 cm ( because 22 cm looks too low for a tank that size , my friend). Cut down the T8 lighting further so you have about roughly 1.3- 1.5 WPG. Bring the spray bar down to water surface level.

Convert the upper half of the aquarium space into a vivarium sort of set up. Emmersed plantsl like ferns,...nice little flowering plants ,....are you seeing the picture.

With regards to your hesitancy to fill up the tank, wasting so much water on water changes & difficulty in managing the plants ,...this should score a point in your favour.

But with respect to the fact whether this might work is open to further discussion because it's just an idea that suddenly came to me. We should consult with more experienced aquarists here.


----------



## idris (26 May 2011)

*a1Matt* ok, ok, I'm coming round to your way of thinking (maybe it's just atrition  ) but what would the effect of increased water volume  be on the maturation of the biological media / nitrogen cycle?



			
				faizal said:
			
		

> ... The only reason I could think of would be in terms of aesthetic ... it would appear like so much wasted space in such a tall ...


Have I given the wrong impression again  ? It's always been the intention to have it fully flooded eventually. Probably in a few weeks when I don't need to get to the bottom of the tank on a regular basis.


----------



## Alastair (26 May 2011)

Idris what pump is that your using for water changes


----------



## a1Matt (26 May 2011)

idris said:
			
		

> *a1Matt* ok, ok, I'm coming round to your way of thinking (maybe it's just atrition  ) but what would the effect of increased water volume  be on the maturation of the biological media / nitrogen cycle?



I don't know   Just when you were starting to come round too


----------



## idris (26 May 2011)

a1Matt said:
			
		

> I don't know   Just when you were starting to come round too


And I thought you knew what you were talking about 

*Alastair* it's a submersible pump from a camping / caravanning shop. There are lots on eBay. 
http://www.caravan-components.co.uk/epa ... tViaPortal
It doesn't come with a power supply but I had a spare 12v wall-wart kicking around. And it takes 10mm (internal) tubing. I've also knocked up a foot switch from Maplin parts, but it's not strictly necessary.


----------



## Alastair (27 May 2011)

Eeee all this fancy piping and pumps, and ya can't even fill a bloody tank he he ;0)


----------



## Bobtastic (27 May 2011)

idris said:
			
		

> I've also knocked up a foot switch from Maplin parts, but it's not strictly necessary.



Now that's a fine idea! I would like to see how that's done. Only last night I was thinking it would be handy to have and extra arm, but a foot switch would have been just as good!


----------



## idris (27 May 2011)

[In a Fluff Freeman style...]
Bob Tastic of Manchester wrote to us saying 





			
				Bobtastic said:
			
		

> ...Only last night I was thinking it would be handy to have and extra arm, but a foot switch would have been just as good!


 Well Bob, we can't help you with the extra arm, but this one goes out to you Bob. (Lot's of kisses on the bottom.)

Assuming you've got your pump, tube and power supply...
Parts:
Foot switch
Box
“Chocolate block” type connector
Small piece of sheet plastic (optional)
Grommets (optional)
Wire






I could have opted for a push-and-hold type foot switch, the advantage being that you'll never end up pumping more water out of your tank than your bucket can hold. But the switch I used is of the push-to-make / push-to-break (DPDT) variety, so I don't have to keep a foot on it while it's pumping. So I've only used two pins out of the 6 available. This means only the +ve (red and brown) wires have a switch in between. If I'd had a 4 terminal chocolate block to hand I'd probably have had both the +ve and -ve wires switched. But it's only 12v and a low current so I'm not really bothered.

Because the box I got has vertical slots to take PCBs I bolted the chocolate block to this. (Glue would have done fine as an alternative, but I like to have the option of disassembly at a later date.)

A multimeter was used to identify a pair of switched pins on the foot switch...



and these had a short length of wire soldered to them.

Then is was just a case of connecting the +ve wire from the transformer to the +ve of the pump via the switch, and the -ve wire from the transformer to the -ve of the pump directly.




And that's it …




Any questions? (I'll look out the Maplin part numbers when I've got a minute.)


----------



## idris (4 Jun 2011)

The last week has been one of much wondering. Should I have flooded? Should I have held fast and see through the DSM?

Nearly all the Crypts' original leaves died. 
Nearly all the Swords' original leaves died, and none of those that remained looked healthy. There are at least three rhizomes(?) with no leaves at all. 
A significant proportion of the Hair Grass has turned quite brown and when I've accidentally uprooted some clumps there has been little evidence of root growth. The brown may well be down the Diatoms which are blooming nicely. 

(Interestingly, one of the places the Diatoms are most obvious is as distinct spots on the glass, and directly next to plants. I've read a couple of things on their possible causes in new tanks, but it strikes me that they are possibly related to something that the plants are expiring / excreting. Someone with more knowledge would be very welcome to baffle me with a little more biochemistry.  )





The upside is that having largely left the surviving plants to get on with things themselves,...

… many of the Crypts seem to have produced one or two small new leaves in the last week  Nothing dramatic, and a backwards step from when they arrived in the post, but it is progress.





… some of the Swords even have some new growth. Though the predominance of dying leaves makes for a depressing view of both ends of the tank.  And I really I don't want to depress myself by going back to look at the pictures of them when they arrived.








… the Hair Grass, although brown and fuzzy in many places, does seem to have become a slightly more vibrant green, though that may be uncommon optimism on my part.





Having partly flooded the tank, my mind has turned to “cycling” and since I'm new to properly planted tanks, research was needed. The consensus seems to favour heavy planting and just adding fish slowly, allowing the plants to clean up unwanted compounds.

Whilst I had planted the tank moderately, the amount of healthy plants remaining has been greatly depleted. So more plants needed to be considered. (To be fair, I had planned on adding Vallis when the tank was flooded (it would have just fallen over without water) so this was on the cards anyway.) My reading (and a couple of recommendations – thanks Faizal) got me looking at fast growing stem plants that absorb nutrients predominantly from the water column, rather than through their roots, and I liked the look of Wisteria (Hygrophillia Difformis). So 5 pots each of this and Vallisneria Spiralis were ordered, again from http://www.plantsalive.co.uk

It took me about a week after the initial flooding to start testing the water for nitrogen compounds. (I know the likes of Ceg have little faith in this, especially with domestic indicator fluids, but I feel they are at least useful as a guide.) I have deliberately left some rotting vegetation in the tank as an ammonia source and thrown in the occasional bit of old fish food I had kicking around from my last tank. That said, I have never detected any significant concentration of ammonia / ammonium. I hope this is due to my use of second hand mulm to seed the filter and the delay in testing. 
Over the first few days of testing the nitrites were constant at about 5ppm, but in the last few days have dropped to zero. All pretty much making sense, and all heading in the right direction. 
The slight fly in the ointment has been the nitrates: it seems my tap water contains about 40ppm nitrates and in the tank they seem to have varied day to day, from 5ppm to 80ppm. I've been assured nitrates aren't an issue in planted tanks and the advice that made most sense was ...





			
				Bobtastic said:
			
		

> As we in the planted tank world happily add large quantities of nitrates why would free nitrates in the tap water be a concern?


... so I am not going to concern myself with this, but if it all goes wrong, I'm coming for ya Bob  But my interpretation is that by adding more plants, especially the like of the Wisteria, the nitrates may well fall.

Again I was initially impressed by the quality and quantity supplied by PlantsAlive – the bag of Wisteria was absolutely full ...





... though disappointingly the plants in 2 of the pots were significantly smaller than the other 3.





Unwrapping the Wisteria I was increasingly disappointed, *BUT* I should add that this may be unjustified. Having had pretty respectable roots on all the other plants, all the Wisteria were just cuttings. 





Thankfully it turns out I have some experience of stem plants from the few scraggy plants I had in my previous tanks, and realising how these plants self propagate, certain things made a little more sense. Stem plants, it seems, are called stem plants as that's pretty much all they are – stems with leaves and nominal root systems that send out runners. So ok, fair enough, I'm not going to grumble about lack of roots on the Wisteria, but I do feel that perhaps they shouldn't be sold as “pots”: the price wasn't significantly different to buying a bunch, but for those with little experience, I think it may be a little misleading.
That aside, I have ended up with far more Wisteria than I expected and I nearly threw some away.
The up side (jeez – it's really not like me to see up sides, and certainly not this regularly  ) is that the smaller plants work well to add graduation, front to back.

The Vallis all seemed a good size, an average of 16”  and would fit well with the height of my tank without much need for growth.





My initial experience of planting the tank definitely made me think that it was easier to do with no water in the tank at all. So I drained it completely, keeping as much of the water as possible in the dustbin previously used to soak the bogwood. I could have just chucked all the water away and started from scratch, but I estimated that as it is, filling the tank would equate to about a 2/3rds water change, and saw no benefit to a 100% change of water.




(The two chairs are there just so I could get inside the tank, and even then it's a PITA. (Who's stupid idea was it to have a tall tank?  )

The plan has always been to have the Vallis at the back, but I figured a “Vallis curtain” all the way across will look a little dull. The Wisteria is supposed to grow relatively tall, and  I figured would fill the centre background quite well. Bearing in mind the quantity of Wisteria I've ended up with, the Vallis has ended up more densely planted and pushed further into the corners than expected. And with hindsight some more across the back will probably look quite good.

The biggest problem I've had with the Wisteria is stopping the stuff floating off. Google leads me to believe this is a common problem. 
First I stripped off the lower leaves and just pushed bare stems into the substrate. Did that work? Ha bloody ha.
Second, and after a little help from Uncle Google, I tried trimming back the lower stems and buried a couple of the lower leaves. Success? See above.
There are two further options I shall try before I just let it float: using some cotton to tie a couple of stems together, in a “V” shape, in the hope that this will help the substrate hang on to them. And failing that I may well have some old lead strip from bye gone days. 
If all else fails and I just leave it all to float, there is one concern: how much shade it casts over the other plants. But I shall address that if it becomes a problem.

What ever happens, having bought the Wisteria, I'm now not that keen on it aesthetically, so I suspect it may only be in the tank a (relatively) short while before it's appears on the Sale/Swap/Wanted board.

One other consequence of the large mass of Wisteria was that some of the Crypts had to be moved. I was a little nervous as the leaves are somewhat frail, and although they look unhealthy above the substrate, there are quite a few new roots starting to emerge. I really didn't want to trim these back and I am hoping I haven't damaged them when re-planing.

There is still some moss to be added, courtesy of a1Matt though I fear I may have messed up a little here. There is cotton in place to tie it to the shelf, as trying to thread the cotton through the (specially drilled) holes will be nigh on impossible without removing the shelf. Chaos! Unfortunately it seems the cotton is already getting fragile after a few weeks under water. I hope it lasts long enough to hold moss on, but we shall see. There will also be some going on the wood, but  this shouldn't be a problem.

The remaining part of the equation is the Algae Crew. (I love that term  )
My initial plan has been for some Ottos, Amano Shrimps and Assassin Snails, with other fish TBC to follow. All very standard. The Ottos have been quite hard to find, but after some phoning around I think I have finally located some, albeit a little further away than I wanted. I shall keep an eye on the tank over the next week, just to make sure nothing goes wrong and then see about introducing some fauna.

But this does leave me with a couple of questions for the experts:
1) What would be good numbers respectively of Ottos, shrimps and snails to start with? (These will not be the stars of the tank in terms of quantity, but rather just to keep the algae in check.)
2) Would it be ok to add them all on the same day?

(A picture of the whole tank wil follow as soon as I've got the floating Witeria issue resolved.)


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## idris (6 Jun 2011)

After much faffing around the Wisteria is stuck in the substrate. So a picture is in order …





The keen eyed will spot the tank is not yet full. I still have to add some moss and as I shall almost certainly have to drain a significant proportion of the tank to affix that, I see no purpose in adding more water. 

I'm generally pretty happy with it. Even though it's only my first really attempt at aquascaping and my first properly planted tank I feel, with a little better planning it would look even better.

My view on the different areas …





*Amazon Swords (red)* : obviously this has been a bit of a disaster. Stil, some of it is growing slowly and I still hope it will survive.

*Crypt Wendtii (pink)* : yes, they're in there. And are starting to grow. How big they'll get, or wuite how they'll look in the end, I can only guess.

*Dwarf Hair Grass (pale blue)* : the fact that some of the tufts are starting to have healthy looking blades pointing further away from vertical makes me wonder whether it is trying to spread. There is quite a lot of diatom algae effecting this, and it will be at least a week before any fauna are introduced to tackle this. So fingers crossed.

*Vallis Spirallis (green)* : in the short term I may have planted this over too small an area, or I should have bought more of it. On the left it is a little crowded by the Wisteria, and I think it needs to spread more towards the centre of the tank. On the right I'd like it to spread behind the upright section of the wood, but the hardscaping may prove prohibitive on that front. Some of this looks as though it may be struggling a little (even though it's only been in the tank for a few days) – I'm dosing with ferts and have some “liquid carbon” on the way so hopefully it won't go the way of the Swords.

*Wisteria (dark blue)* : although I have reservations about the look of the Wisteria, I like the effect this section has, and how it surrounds the wood. Long term, this will either stay as is, or get replaced with something that gives the same feeling, albeit a different plant.

*Wisteria (yellow) *: this is the section I am least happy with. It's too bushy and just looks a little messy. It will almost certainly go at some point and get replaced, although I don't know what with.


One thing that is becoming apparent is that I may have pump issues and I'm getting a lot less turn over than I would expect. This may well be down to my pipework as it has a slightly smaller diameter than the stock pipes. There is an EX1200 winging it's way to me as I type and I shall experiment with this, my current xP2 and different pipes to see what improvements can be made.


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## flyingfish (6 Jun 2011)

i have the same diatoms starting to for on my glass, and the hairgrass is starting to go like yours. how do i get rid of it?


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## Bobtastic (7 Jun 2011)

idris said:
			
		

> *Vallis Spirallis (green)* : in the short term I may have planted this over too small an area, or I should have bought more of it. On the left it is a little crowded by the Wisteria, and I think it needs to spread more towards the centre of the tank. On the right I'd like it to spread behind the upright section of the wood, but the hardscaping may prove prohibitive on that front. Some of this looks as though it may be struggling a little (even though it's only been in the tank for a few days) – I'm dosing with ferts and have some “liquid carbon” on the way so hopefully it won't go the way of the Swords.



I was told by Andyh on the weekend of TGM meet that Vallis does NOT like liquid carbon. I think to the point of it melting when it is used on/or near it... Can someone else confirm this for me?


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## Ian Holdich (7 Jun 2011)

I have found in the past, if you OD on the liquid carbon it will melt. I did find if you kept withing the dose limit, i didn't have a problem.


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## idris (7 Jun 2011)

flyingfish said:
			
		

> i have the same diatoms starting to for on my glass, and the hairgrass is starting to go like yours. how do i get rid of it?


As far as I understand it, patience and algae feeders. I think it's something that mainly effects new tanks and that it goes away with time. My guess is shrimps would be the best bet for harvesting it, but that's only a guess.

*Bob & Ianho* - thanks guys I shall dose with care and stop if the Vallis looks to be ailing.


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## Alastair (7 Jun 2011)

tanks looking better all the time now mate. i wouldnt worry too much about the diatoms, i got it quite bad at first but it cleared up relatively quickly. if its there when you introduce some ottos theyll love it


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## idris (7 Jun 2011)

Thanks Alastair. Bit nervous about the plants staying healthy. But time will tell. Really looking forward to getting some fish in.


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## idris (15 Jun 2011)

Since the Wisteria and Vallis went in, the tank has generally looked pretty healthy. With the exception of a Diatom bloom. It started slowly, but as with all good mitotic organisms, it displayed a somewhat exponential increase. Still, everything looked relatively healthy otherwise.

The Crypts are finally growing back …





… the Swords are starting to produce new growth …





… and even the Hair Grass is coming along. There are definite signs blades growing …





… and there is obviously some root / runner growth, as I've not planted anything this close to the glass.





So I'm actually a pretty happy bunny right now.

The Wisteria has stopped floating away and although some of the Vallis is looking a little peaky …





… there's no melt on the devastating scale that there was after the first round of planting.

I've been concerned the flow I was getting from my Rena xP2 was not what it might be. After some investigation, my suspicion was that the acrylic pipes I'd made may be the main culprets. Their internal diameter is 12mm, whereas the stock pipes are 14mm-15mm (ID). According to George Farmer's research, it seems that should give a flow reduction of about 50%  . The Nicest Man On The Planet, aka Alastair very kindly donated a Tetratec EX1200 which has improved the flow by about 25% already and I will now be remaking the pipes in 20/16

One of my other mistakes has been with the photoperiod. As I had initially been trying DSM, I had been working with 12hrs of lighting but I didn't think to check up on appropriate photoperiods for wet start.  It seems this is most likely behind my Diatom bloom and the lighting has now been cut to 5hrs. I have also started getting a tiny bit of hair algae ... 





… so I'm hoping reducing the light and introducing the algae crew will nip this in the bud.

With a mix of impatience, optimism and frustration at the Diatoms, after a bit over a week with the new planting and no disasters, I headed for an LFS for some livestock. As mentioned the 4 closest LFSs have had no Otos. The next closest has had some, though I had been told by a UKAPS member that there was an outbreak of Ick. It's the first time I've shopped there and I wasn't too impressed, but I saw no signs of Ick in their tanks, so took a chance with 6 Otos. I know on paper I shouldn't have added any other fauna at the same time, but I also got 6 Amanos from my local MA.












Both the fish and shrimps seemed to settle in fine and although both spent an hour or so looking a little subdued, they all started tucking into the Diatoms the same day. I wish I'd taken a photo of the shelf covered in Diatoms as the amount that just 6 Amano and 6 Otos have cleared in 24hrs has astounded me. It's not even as if they haven't been eating elsewhere. 

On the basis of eating means excreta, this does make me think I really do need to keep on top of water changes at the minute, but that's no bad thing.

I had intended to add some Assassin Snails but, as I hadn't had a problem with “pest snails” and there is a chance of the Assassins breading heavily, I had been put off the idea a little. That said, today I've crushed 2 pest snails. As I hadn't spotted them before the livestock had been added, I can only assume I was sloppy when checking the fish bags. In the past it's always seemed to me that if you can see 2 snails, there are 3 you can't see, so maybe there will be some Assassins getting added soon.

The only other concern I have at the moment is that intermittently both the Otos and Amanos seem to prefer the area of the tank where there is most surface disturbance ie dissolved oxygen. They don't stay there consistently so I'm not overly concerned, but it does make me think the I need to get new pipes sorted reasonably soon.

Which all leaves us with this ...


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## spyder (15 Jun 2011)

Looks like it starting to turn around.  

Not sure about amano's but generaly shrimp and oto's dont take a fancy to hair algae unless it's dead. The easy carbo should help along with plenty of manual removal. 

The bad leaves on the swords can come off. In fact any bad leaves should be removed. Bad leaves = Ammonia. The damaged leaves wont recover. There will be plenty of good growth ahead.   

Enjoy your Oto's, they're great little fish.


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## faizal (15 Jun 2011)

It's looking much better now,... 

hey where's your spray bar? I just can't see them.


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## Bobtastic (15 Jun 2011)

idris said:
			
		

> I've been concerned the flow I was getting from my Rena xP2 was not what it might be. After some investigation, my suspicion was that the acrylic pipes I'd made may be the main culprets. Their internal diameter is 12mm, whereas the stock pipes are 14mm-15mm (ID).
> 
> I will now be remaking the pipes in 26/22.



Why are you going for such a massive step up? As I understand it you dont really what to reduce or increase the ID of tubing/hosing over the manufacturers recommendations as you are likely to stress the motor of the filter (correct me if I'm wrong). I would personally, and have done  go for the 20/16 or even better get the tubing with the same ID of your hosing. This way there will be no reductions in flow from the step up/down of the spray bar.

I agree with spyder it looks like you've really turned it around! It's starting to look really nice. Manual removal of the hair algae is a good idea, get it out as soon as u can. People recommend using a tooth brush and twisting it around so the algae gets dragged off. Also agree with spyder about the dead leave on the sword (and anything else), they wont be helping the plant any and will be decomposing in your water column which can cause problems.


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## idris (15 Jun 2011)

Pipes : my mistake - 20/16 is what I'm aiming for (edited) - just brain fade when typing 
Leaves and hair algae : thanks - on the To Do list.


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## Bobtastic (15 Jun 2011)

How are you liking your Ottos? I think they have to be one of my most favourite fish. They're full of character and can happily chase each other round and round the tank. I personally think they really resemble sharks whilest swimming!


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## idris (15 Jun 2011)

I'm surprised how active they are - I think they're really cool. But so are the shrimps. 
And that's before they get busier than a Massey Furgeson combine harvester with the diatoms. 
I didn't expect the Algea Crew to be so interesting.

Fazial - there is no spray bar as such yet. There is a pipe along the top of the tank (doesn't reply showin the pic) that was going to be drilled as a spray bar, but it went in the tank in a bit of a hurry and it only has a jet type nozzle on it at the moment. Since I've decided to remake the pipes in a larger diameter to aid flow, and the tank still won't be flooded to the top till I get the mosses in, I see no sense in drilling it as a spray bar.


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## Bobtastic (15 Jun 2011)

Are you going to run both of your filters at the same time to increase the over all flow?


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## idris (15 Jun 2011)

Don't know yet. I'm hoping I can just use one but I'll make that decision when I've got the pipes properly made.


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## Bobtastic (15 Jun 2011)

A thought to help, is that if you use both filters you could use shorter spray bars on each which should increase the exit velocity of the water from the holes and meaning that the flow should travel deeper into the tank. As you're not concerned about Co2 dispersement you could have them meet in the middle of your can and have no cause to overlap or run the full length of your tank. Just a thought.


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## Bobtastic (27 Jun 2011)

Any updates Idris?


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## idris (27 Jun 2011)

It's always gratifying to be remembered by one's public 
Not a whole lot to report but ...

The biggest change recently has been the addition of more fish. 6 Dwarf Blue Rainbows and 13 Neon Tetras. 
The Rainbows have taken over a week to settle in, so it's only in the last 24 hours it's been possible to get any photos of them without setting up a camouflaged hide and recruiting Chris Packham and Kate Humble.
The Neons aren't proving easy to take photos of either, but I think that's a combination of them being small, fidgety, and only having a relatively simple compact camera.












My wife commented that we need some more colour, and I'm inclined to agree with her,. I like the fish I've got, but the whole picture is greens and blues. With hindsight I think I possiby should have gone for some more reddish Tetras, but there feels like plenty more room for fish, so *suggestions on a post card to the usual address.*

Bearing in mind this is low tech, progress is s.....l.....o.....w.... which is fine by me. 
The Crypts have recovered really well, and pretty much all the leaves have grown since the plants grew back after the failed DSM attempt. 
The Amazons have also made a pretty good recovery, although patience hasn't quite proved enough, and I think a little more than half the original plants seem to have died. I'll probably replace them in the next week or two. Possibly some more Crypt Wendtii too, to fill out the left and right foreground.
Whilst the Hair Grass hasn't flourished into a lawn yet, they're definitely growing. I suspect it may be worth trimming it a little to force it's growth. *Suggestions and comments welcome.*
The Vallis doesn't seem to have dome much, but then again, as the tank still isn't full to the top, it's a little difficult to see just how much it has grown.











The Wisteria is still quite dominant, and in the medium to long term this will definitely need rebalancing. Though that's for a future decision.

The whole thing looks like this at the moment.





Moss and new (larger bore) pipes are iminent, and as soon as they're in I'll flood the tank completely.

But just in case anyone thought I've been idle, or I that I don't have too much time on my hands, I needed somewhere better to put tools rather than just stuffing them behind the filter.


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## faizal (28 Jun 2011)

That looks simply lovely,....

It is looking soooooooooooooooo much better now!!!!

Congratulations!!!   

The hairgrass have gone wild in there. Amazing. Idris,....did you uproot the hairgrass to remove the dying / dead leaves or did you just snip them off?

You mentioned the tank being low tech. Are you still dosing Excel / Liquid carbon,....if so,....are you dosing as per recommended value?

I am curious because you have Vallis in there,...and they look really healthy despite the liquid carbon dosing.


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## idris (28 Jun 2011)

Thanks Faizal.

I haven't actualy removed any of the Hairgrass. And to be fair, I don't know how much was actually dying as opposed to just covered in diatoms. Certainly the shrimps did some sterling work on it and there wasn't much left that wasn't green within a few days. Equally I've not trimmed it, though that's a consideration, just to promote more growth.

The recommended dose for the Easycarbo is 1-2ml per 50l per day. ie about 3ml daily. The ferts should be 5ml per 50l per day, ie 10ml per daily. But as mentioned, I keep forgetting so I'm actually only dosing both 2ml Easycarbo and 10ml ferts once every 2-3 days.


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## Bobtastic (28 Jun 2011)

It is looking 100% better Idris! I would definitely trim the grass down, it should promote it to send out runners and has the added advantage of making you suffer whilest having to collect up all the trimmings! I want you to feel my pain. 

I can't seem to see the last picture either...


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## idris (28 Jun 2011)

Picture fixed.


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## idris (30 Jun 2011)

Three small points of interest at the moment:

1) Although it may not be initially obvious from this picture ...



... the Rainbows aren't actually the star of this photo. It's the grey / white blob in the middle of the frame, at the top of one of the blades of grass. A vermin smail. And if it weren't for the rainbow on the left, two of them would be in vision. I've been able to crush about 1 a day for the last week or two. This afternoon I'm pretty sure I spotted 3 on one clump of Hair Grass. When my tanks have suffered from snails in the past they have escalated to as many as 30 snails removed from a 60 litre tank EVERY DAY! And that could mean over 100 per day in this tank. 
So come next week, there will be some more snails in there. Big snails. Fast snails. Hungry snails. Assassin snails! Murhahahaaaaaa  

2) Second is much more positive.



I think this is the second, if not third shrimp shuck I've spotted in the tank. To me that says the shrimp are growing, which surely means they think they're in a healthy environment. 

3) Perhaps of most relevance to UKAPS members.



There are quite a few Swords for which I'd given up hope. (More than half of those that went into the tank initially.) All their leaves had died and of those that had been uprooted, there was no sign of root growth. These, however, are two such plants. Tiny leaves they may be, but between the two plants shown there's about 8 or 10 of them, and they're a good colour. There is a similar little sprout on the other side of the tank.


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## idris (4 Jul 2011)

The other day some moss arrived in the post – Round Pelia and Taiwan Moss. 

But as I have journeyed to this point I have made some errors in judgement and it leaves me with some problems.

First mistake, was the whole DSM débâcle, and the consequences of that decision are still causing ripples. If I hadn't tried it I would almost certainly have tied on the moss before flooding the tank, adding fish, and getting some growth in delicate plants.

The second mistake (though not chronologically) was to have such a tall tank. Dealing with things in the tank without removing them is a right PITA.

Thirdly, despite having the foresight to put holes in the cave roof to feed thread through for tying moss on, the cotton rotted enough to make it useless 2 or 3 weeks before I got the moss.

Fourth, the wall round the shelf  is no more than an inch high and at the moment, a deeper layer of substrate would be a great help.

These mistakes have the following result. It's going to be an absolute ***** to tie the moss onto the shelf wall. 
With the wood and cave in the tank it's really difficult to tie moss on without disturbing all the plants and hardscape around them.
The fact that I'm having to stand on a chair, and even then can only really reach the things I need to, just compounds the situation.
The thread that was in place to take moss on the wall isn't there any more (fishing line would have helped). As the tops of the holes are now covered in substrate, they are no longer even visible.

With the moss for the wood, this is not the end of the world, just a major inconvenience.
I've manage to tie all the Round Pelia onto a couple of branches on one piece of wood. It's not particularly neat and it doesn't cover as much as I had in my head, but that's probably my own fault and I'm not redoing it now. I shall have to put Taiwan Moss on the other tree stump, but that is in itself is no bad thing, as it will hide the join, and give some continuity between the wood and the stone. 'Tis an ill wind...

With the moss for the cave roof, the situation does give me a major problem.
As far as I can think, I have three options:
1) Leave the cave roof without moss. But I think it would look a lot better with moss, and I hate admitting defeat.
2) Use a large needle to root around the substrate on the cave roof to find the holes and tread the cotton / fishing line through them again. I've tried this, and it is difficult at best. I don't really want to drain the tank to below the shelf, so the water doesn't help. Then there's the issues of disturbing everything else and the problems with height / access. I've uprooted several clumps of Hair Grass in the process  of threading just two holes, and replanting them is fiddly as ****. 
3) Take the shelf out, and tie the moss on on dry land. I really don't want to think about the disruption this would cause as the cave roof supports the right hand wood, which in turn supports the deep substrate round the end of the tank. Add to that, the Wisteria at the back on the shelf will almost certainly need replanting, as there is nothing except the tank glass to stop the substrate pouring off the back of the shelf as I it gets moved.

I think I shall probably have to have another go at option 2 (rethreading the holes) but I think I'll have to drain most of the tank to do this, otherwise the moss is just going to float off as I try to tie it down.

So all in all, not a great situation to end up in.

On a different note, I am a little concerned about the health of one of my Dwarf Blue Rainbows. At times he has been swimming slightly on his side, and and also with a slight curve in his spine. Sure signs of an unhappy fish. But sometimes he seems fine and is buzzing round the tank and chasing the females like his life depends on it. I've rarely had ill fish recover, so I am not a little worried.


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## a1Matt (4 Jul 2011)

I'd go for draining the tank and option 2 as well.
(Option 3 seems like to much of pain getting it all out and in again.)


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## faizal (10 Jul 2011)

Hi Idris,....any new pics there? How's the tank coming along?


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## idris (14 Jul 2011)

I've been a bit busy with work in the last couple of weeks so both the tank and journal have had to take a back seat. This is likely to continue for a couple of months. But since most of the hard work is done, and the growing will be at low-tech speeds, it's no big deal in my book.

That said, I didn't want to leave the moss residing in a bucket for too long and tying that on was a priority. 
I chose option 2 in the end (see above) and drained the tank so the water level was just  below the shelf. Even then tying the Taiwan Moss on was difficult and digging around in the substrate to find the holes in the shelf was quite disruptive in terms of uprooting hair grass. 





It was also impractical to get the whole of the shelf covered. Hopefully it will grow in time.





Scruffy, but hopefully effective.

Tying the remainder of the Taiwan Moss onto the wood was easier and the result is a _little_ neater.





Which left the Round Pelia for the other piece of wood. 





Again not the neatest of job, but hopefully effective enough.

Admittedly, it's now only a week later now and the cotton is starting to fail. Possibly just rot, possibly down to the shrimps which seem to be pretty active around the moss. I guess I should have listened to advice and used fishing line. But I didn't want to have to go swimming just to remove it once the moss was attached. But it looks like I may have to go swimming to secure it. But none has floated off so far, so I guess I'll wait till it starts to become a problem. (I _really_ don't want to have to deal with the shelf again.

The plants seem to be doing pretty well. Especially the crypts. I'm amazed how well they're doing when I think about how they were when I first flooded the tank.








The swords that have survived have done equally well





but I think I'll have to get some more as about half have never recovered. There should be about 6 plants in this shot.





I can't make any judgement on the use of liquid carbon and Vallis just yet. Now that the tank is fully flooded, the Vallis can stand at it's full height, and it looks good. But there is a little melt, and I'm not experienced enough to say whether that is a result of the liquid carbon.





Despite trying to keep on top of the pest snails they have beaten me. 








Although there are only 3 pest snails between the two pictures above, I have counted as many as 12, which is doubtless the tip of the ice berg.So today I have added three ruthless ninja killers … aka Assassin Snails.











I've not seen them munching pest snails yet, but I was assured by the guy at MA that there's nothing like watching an Assassin sprinting across the tank and ripping a snail from it's shell   

I'm feeling more confident about the health of rainbows and they seem to be behaving pretty normally. Yesterday one of the Neons spent about 5min sipping air at the surface, which gave me some concern, but it has either died and disappeared from view or recovered.

One note for concern is that I do now seem to be getting a little algae. I've noticed some green spots on the shelf. 





*Any thoughts / suggestions *(that don't compromise the low tech nature of the tank)?

And finally a general view …
To me it feels as though there's a bit of a hole in the middles of the view, but I am confident that will fill in, one way or another. And I really need to sort out the pipes, but that's not a 5 min job so I may have to wait for a few weeks. But generally I'm really quite chuffed.


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## foxfish (14 Jul 2011)

Looking better & better   
 Pelia has become a real nuisance in my tank, I planted some 5-6 years back & even though the tank has been rescaped a couple of times the  Pelia remains a nuisance.
Some of the Pelia must of been hiding on the plants I reused to rescape & it grows like a weed, bizarrely enough it is a very satisfying job to weed out the little clumps that form amongst my plants every week.
 You can just see a tiny piece peeking out but it turns out to be a nasty unwanted clump entwined withing my plant mass


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## Bobtastic (14 Jul 2011)

A little big if GSA will probably lend to a more natural looking tank so I don't think it's anything to worry about. Just keep an eye on it.

Your tank is looking nicer and nice with each update. All you need to do is finish that damn spray bar! It'll be interesting to see the effect the change on flow will have (positive/negative). Keep up the good work!


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## faizal (14 Jul 2011)

Nice one Idris    Glad that it is coming along beautifully. Keep up the good work


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## spyder (14 Jul 2011)

Now your winning the battle. The MA guy missinformed you about sprinting Assasins, either that or mine are plain lazy. I think I've lost some of mine, they seem to hide for weeks then you see 1 here and there.

Now your ahead and things are settling, have a look at cryptocoryne wendtii green. Low in height and sticking with your low tech theme, it would give some nice foreground cover and contrast. I have some in my nano and it seems to be the most stable and reliable plant in there hovering around 2 - 3 inches. I must do a low tech crypt only tank, (ok crypts n moss).

Keep up the good work.


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## Bobtastic (14 Jul 2011)

Yeah my Assassin Snail did more ambushing than chasing across tanks. They would move out and attack any passing morsel tho. Pretty horrific way to go too!


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## spyder (14 Jul 2011)

The transparent look of the victims shell says it all.


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## idris (14 Jul 2011)

Thanks as ever for the praise guys. Does my ego the world of good.   



			
				foxfish said:
			
		

> ... Pelia has become a real nuisance in my tank ...


Well if you have some you want to get rid of, the wood on the right would benefit from some more cover.
Thinks to self - hang on, that means going swimming again.  



			
				Bobtastic said:
			
		

> A little bit of GSA will probably lend to a more natural looking tank so I don't think it's anything to worry about ...
> All you need to do is finish that damn spray bar! ...


FFS! Give me a brake Bob! Did I mention I was busy. I'll get the spray bar done soon. As soon as I've earned some money to pay for the damn tank. Jeez. What's a guy to do. Now stop worrying about my tardiness and go do something useful like scrubbing the algae from your rocks or poisoning your Otos. 
Speaking of algae, and to save me typing GSA into Google (yes I spotted the irony of typing in here) what are the causes / remedies for GSA? Will my Algae Crew eat it?



			
				spyder said:
			
		

> ...The MA guy missinformed you about sprinting Assasins ... they seem to hide for weeks then you see 1 here and there.
> ... have a look at cryptocoryne wendtii green. ...


I think I read somewhere that Assassins tend to bury themselves in the substrate and "leap out" when food passes. Your's may still be in there, just in Ninja Stealth Mode.
The existing Crypts are Wendtii. I didn't order any particular colour, and none was specified by the supplier, but they've turned out to be the brown ones. I do want to add something else (possibly in a couple more months) possibly replacing some of the Wisteria, but I'd like to add some more variety of colour. Except for the Crypts, everything is mid green. dw1305 suggested Red Tiger Lotus, which is a strong contender. or maybe something like this?


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## Bobtastic (14 Jul 2011)

idris said:
			
		

> Bobtastic said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Man up ya tart!    

Jame's Algae Guide is good to pinpoint the exact algae, but must admit the advice seems more for high tech setups... I am assuming it's GSA. And it's rude to kick a man in the Otto's whilest he's suffering from the algaes!

Apparently Ottos do not eat GSA but stiphodon percnopterygionus "love the stuff".


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## idris (14 Jul 2011)




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## Alastair (15 Jul 2011)

Green spot algae is usually down to low phosphates from what I remember. If it's on rock work, when you come to water change day or just a neat and tidy day, use a tooth brush to just rub it off. With low tech tanks I dont really know a remedy for it, mine just seemed to stop when I began dosing ei. Maybe try that long named individual bob mentioned :0)


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## Alastair (15 Jul 2011)

I've just googled them and the colours of some of them are amazing. Does say you need a fair bit of algae to keep them happy though


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## Bobtastic (5 Aug 2011)

Idris, how's it going? Any progress?


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## faizal (6 Aug 2011)

Yeah,...how is it coming along?


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## idris (12 Aug 2011)

Y ogof is going well. There will be an update coming at some point, but work is stupidly busy just now, so it may be a few weeks away. Just to wet your appetite, there will be tales of plants heading for the surface nicely, moss and getting wet, possibly a little planting (not had time for that either), a little algae, and snails both appearing and disappearing.
Thanks for the interest.


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## idris (23 Sep 2011)

At long last, an update.

I've had a couple of massive work projects that have robbed me of pretty much all my free time (anything up to 16hr days, 7 days a week) for a couple of months or so, and not only have I not had time to update the journal, I've barely had time to do water changes, let alone any other deep water chores. But we're getting back on track now.

I'm really pretty happy with the plant growth over the last couple of months.

The Crypts have filled out nicely.










I think they've lost a little of their brown colour, and I suspect that may be down to light levels. (I assume it's the same as red plants in that they need a lot of light to maintain their non-green colour.) If I trim the Vallis and Wisteria, hopefully that will help as they are reducing the amount of light that can get to the Crypts. 
It has amused me (at my own expense) that Crypt Wendtti usually seems to be sold as a mid-ground plant, as having a stupidly deep tank, for me it's very much a foreground plant.

Equally the Amazon Swords really aren't a background plant for me. Not to suggest they haven't grown well, as some are over 12” high and only have a couple of damaged leaves.





The Swords that I feared had died definitely have. So I think there is room for a few more in the near future. Having seen the all plants grow, I now have a much better idea of how many to order. 
I mention the damaged leaves because they have highlighted yet another reason to not have a tank this deep and narrow, and why I am very glad to be aiming for a low maintenance tank: dealing with the plants is an utter nightmare . There are two factors : 1) even with long scissors / tweezers, I get wet very nearly to my arm pit if I need to get to the bottom and 2) the refraction caused by 2.5 ft of water means it's virtually impossible to get a sense of where things are in the tank when I'm shoulder deep in it. This was exemplified when I tried to trim a dead leaf from the Swords and in the process, uprooted a large chunk of Vallis ... Which was then a complete ***** to replant. 

However, the Vallis is definitely a success story.





If memory serves me, there was about a foot between the tallest leaves and the surface of the water when I started. Now there is more than a foot of Vallis across the surface, the leaves having reached the top some time ago and trimming is definitely on the cards. The plants have also sent out some really strong looking runners which are in turn starting to grow leaves. 





I've long wanted to steer clear of the ubiquitous Vallis curtain at the back of the tank, and were it not for the shelf and the Wisteria, there is something approaching that already. But the shelf does provide a great natural barrier for that - an unexpected bonus.

The Wisteria has certainly done what it was supposed to, as a fast growing plant, and the taller stems reached the top of the tank a few weeks ago.





As the picture shows, the leaf growth is almost exclusively in the top 12” of stem, with the lower part being almost completely bare, except for runners. I suspect I should have pruned all this quite a while ago to promote leaf growth lower down, and given the rate of growth and number of runners, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Wisteria take over the tank, given the opportunity. However, it has long been the plan to use it to help establish the tank quickly, and then replace it, so maybe it's days are numbered and it will be coming to a Sale/Swap page near you very soon.

The Hairgrass has done OK.





It's not the carpet I would like, yet, and having read about such foreground plants before I started, without pressurised CO2, the odds of achieving that quickly are supposedly slim. But there has been significant growth in terms of height and there have been plenty of runners, some of which have set themselves free and floated off, but I'm pretty sure others have taken root. So hopes are still high. As with the rest of the tank, I haven't got round to pruning the grass yet, but it's on the cards and hopefully that will promote lateral growth. The down side is the Wisteria seems to have inhibited the growth of the Hairgrass on top of the shelf, but as mentioned, the Wisteria is coming out so hopefully the Hairgrass will regain some territory.





In writing this journal entry I've went back to review the last batch of pics I posted, and the main thing that steuck me is how well the mosses have grown in.













Getting the mosses into the tank was another example of why tall tanks are ****.
Having tied the it on, as mentioned in a previous update, I was hoping the cotton holding it on would last till it had secured itself. Which of course it didn't. So I had the painful task of securing it a second time with everything still in the tank. Redoing the shelf was going to be a major PITA so I decided not to do that and hope for the best. 
And thankfully I seem to have got away with it!

As with the Vallis and Wisteria, I think the moss would benefit form some pruning, though I am not confident how much yet. I think the Taiwan moss just needs thinning a bit on the right hand wood, but it is a bit of a mess on the shelf. I think the latter may not look so bad if trimmed along with some light pruning to the Hairgrass. We shall see.

Since I'm not using pressurised CO2, in the hope of kick starting growth, quite a while ago I tried administering liquid carbon. I was warned (somewhere in this jounal IIRC) that it may be detrimental to the Vallis, and I think there may have been some melt, so I stopped using it. Not using it doesn’t seem to have done any harm, nor has there been any long term damage to the Vallis. I also ran out of ferts, and have just relied on the natural chemistry of fish and plants to look after that side of thigs. Obviously it's not perfect, but it's low tech and not a disaster by any means. 

That said, in my last proper update I mentioned a little GSA. Not surprisingly this spread, but only really to the glass. 





A lack of time for tank maintenance saw quite a significant layer, but a good scrape with a razor seemed to do a lot of good, though there does seem to be a thin layer coming back on the glass in less than a week. I know many suggest increasing phosphates, but this kind of goes against my low tech approach. I've also seen talk of just toughing it out and waiting for tank maturity to get the better of GSA, and though I have no idea how long this would take with a tank this size, it does concur with my (limited) previous experience. Any thoughts on this would be more than welcome.

I've hardly seen my Assassin Snails recently, but I know they like to hide in the substrate, and I have seen almost no signs of pest snails since only a few days after the Assassin's were introduced. So I am not concerned about their demise, but I really like seeing them so I'm a little disappointed. A couple of weeks ago I spotted an entirely different snail, one of size and shape I've not seen the like of before. Unfortunately I only had my phone's camera to hand and it has only made one brief appearance, so any help identifying it would be appreciated.





There is nothing significant to report on the rest of the livestock. On the ocsasions I've sat and watched the tank recently I've not managed to  count a full compliment of anything except the Dwarf Blue Rainbows. But we all know counting a small schoal of Neons in a well planted tank is nigh on impossible, and there are so many places out of sight for the Ottos and shrmps to hide, it's not really surprising. Maybe one evening I'll just spend a whole eveing sat in front of the tank (rather than repeats of Mock The Week on Dave Ja Vu  ) and try a propper head count. There is pleanty of room for more fish, and hopefully soon I will get round to adding a little more colour – probably something with some orange or reds.

I think the thing I am most proud of is achieving is what seems to be one of the holy grails of planted tanks. Despite running the tank almost as low tech as it's possible to get, I have seen signs of pearling. 



To be fair, this may be misplaced on my part – I've only seen it a couple of times, and only in small areas of the tank, but with low light and no pressurised CO2, I'm really pleased to have shown that it can be done. (I look forward to someone telling me that this isn't actually pearling.  )


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## foxfish (24 Sep 2011)

Looks great - congratulations.


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## spyder (24 Sep 2011)

Looks good. You have really battled through the early problems and it's paid off. Keep it up.


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## andrejacobs81 (5 Nov 2011)

Really nice!

What substrate are you using?


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## idris (6 Nov 2011)

It's just Akadama. Between 1" and 3" deep.


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## idris (23 Nov 2011)

It's been a difficult time for my tank in the last few weeks.

It all started with the inevitable algal bloom. Predominantly GDA on the front glass, but a little GSA on the pipework and some sort of hair algae on leaves. Thankfully the latter hasn't been too bad and you have too look for it.
The general diagnosis seems to be a lack of CO2, but as anyone who's followed this journal will know, that's a route I'm reluctant to take.

Water tests at the time showed a possible slight increase in ammonia, though whether that was real is difficult to say as the test solution was neither one colour on the test chart nor the next, and they're notoriously inaccurate anyway. Nonetheless, I decided to do. 20% water change rather than the usual 10%.

And that's when things started going badly wrong.
A day or two later and a Rainbow was dead, with no obvious reason.
Next day another Rainbow had died.
Some panic research and water tests (my own and at LFS), and I did another 10% water change, upped the temp a couple of degrees and introduced an air stone.
Next day another 2 Rainbows were down.
For fear of doing anything else wrong, I just left things as they were. Add to that another Rainbow was breathing heavily and one of the Killis was clamped. Bearing in mind my last tank (about 2 years ago now) just collapsed and wiped out about 15 fish in a week, at this stage I was fearing the worst. (For the record the circumstances were entirely different, but the fear was just as real.)
The next day there were no casualties, but the day after another Rainbow was dead, leaving just one.
And a couple of days later a Killi was dead as well.  I've mentioned before the pitfalls of my tall tank, but this time I fell foul of my hardscaping: the Killi's corpse was in the large cave and there was absolutely no chance of retrieving it, until couple of days later when the flayed skeleton worked it's way out into the open and could be removed from the tank.

Whilst this was all going on I spoke to our water company and the duty Water Quality Team guy was really helpful. Not at all definsive or “party line” as I expect companies to be, so I'm inclined to take what he said on faith. He went off and looked into what had been going on locally and there were no obvious reasons like chlorine or chloramine.

So the cause remains a mystery.
I've since nervously done another water change, and three days later I have no causlaties. Phew!

Other than the fish trauma, I should really turn some attention to the plants. This is, after all, the UKAPS forum 

The Wisteria seems to have done as much growing as it's going to. I almost certainly should have cut it back as it grew, but I never really got round to it, and all the foliage is on the top few inches of each stem. I had latterly tried nipping this back, in the hope of promoting growth further down, but this hasn't really worked, and those stems just died. I never really liked the Wisteria anyway, so it's time has come and it will be getting puled out iminently.
In the long term, the Hair Grass has also dissapointed me. Either this really does need CO2, or my hopes were too high for it, or both. Whilst it has grown, and sent out runners, the density of the grass hasn't increased much, and for some reason I regualrly find small pieces of it floating on the water's surface, I suspeect having been uprooted by the tank's fauna.
Between the Wisteria and the Hairgrass, the middle of the tank looks a bit scruffy, so a small revamp is due and I've ordered some new plants.
Fot the background I've gone for Echinodorus Cordifolius. I'm not sure I've got this choice right aesthetically, but we'll see what it's like.
To go on the roof of the shelf in front of the Cordifolius I've gone for Cryptocoryne Lingua. I think this is a similar shape and hopefully will give some graduation and a sense of depth.. 
For right at the front of the tank I've ordered Echinodorus Tennellus. Again this is similar to the Amazon Swords and hopefuly will provide graduation across the tank as well.

The new plants shoud be with me by the end of the week and be in the tank over the weekend.

Getting back to the fish …

It's an ill wind etc, and the demise of all but one of the Rainbows is an opportunity to get some more fish. The male Gouramis are really quite aggressive towards eachother so I'm going to get some females as soon as 1) I'm confident that what ever killed the Rainbows has passed, 2) the LFS has some in and 3) I've got the replanting done. 
I've also got my eye on some Cherry Red Shrimp.

I don't know whether I still have a full compliment of Otos and Amanos. I rarely see them these days, and I don't think I've seen more than 3 (of each) at any one time. The Otos certainly seem to be more active at night now, but I don't know whether they're all hiding or dead. I hope it's the former. I'm contempting some night / dusk lighting for the tank, but there doesn't seem to be much of a concensus on the best way to do this. I shall try to figure that out in time for a letter to Santa.

The Assassins also are a lot harder to find these days, though that was what I expected. I have seen them in the last couple of days, but I've also got an infestation of pest snails as well so they're not doing their job as well as they had been. I suspect the increase in pest snails is down to the increase in temperature, or the Assassins have been at it like Platties; they're just too small for me to tell yet.


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## idris (9 Dec 2011)

Today has seen me spend about 5 hrs in my tank. I don't know how it's taken so long, but it has. A significant proportion of that time was taken up by catching livestock and draining about 60% of the tank. I would like to have drained more water, but there's a cavity in one of the pieces of wood that I'm pretty sure the Amanos have colonised, and I didn't want to leave them stranded in it if I drained the water below it.

My Wisteria and Hairgrass had been earmarked for replacement and a little over a week ago I ordered some more plants from Plants Alive. I've never felt I cold justify the cost of Tropica plants and I've been reasonably happy with what I've had from Plants Alive so far. As mentioned last time I'd chosen Echinodorus Cordifolius (background), Cryptocoryne Lingua (centre ground) and Echinodorus Tennellus (foreground). 

Unfortunately circumstances have conspired against me this time, as the Cordifolius wasn't in stock, and rather than advising me of this before shipping anything, they sent the Lingua and Tennellus straight away and said the Cordifolius would follow ASAP.  As I didn't want to disrupt the tank more than necessary, I really wanted to do the replanting in one hit, so I put the Lingua and Tennellus in a bucket with a heater and waited for the Cordifolius to turn up. 

The Lingua and Tennellus both looked pretty healthy when they arrived, but what turned out to be the best part of a week in a bucket has taken it's toll on the Crypts. Of 9 plants, (3 pots worth) there is only one leaf left between them, and that isn't completely healthy.





I'm wouldn't suggest that they were unhealthy plants that were supplied, and as far as I can tell Crypts are notorious for melting, but with hindsight it would have been nice to have been offered the choice of having all the plants shipped together. Maybe they would still have suffered, and my Crypt Wenditti ended up in a similar state, but are now doing very well. So hopefully the Lingua will do the same.





The Tennellus was chosen as a direct replacement for the Hair Grass. When I had a look at pictures I thought the leaves were broader than they've turned out to be. My concern is that they will not fare much better than the Hair Grass, but time will tell








I think the Cordifolius is possibly an example of why Tropica plants may be better quality … even if they are not particularly cost effective. It may be that the leaves are meant to be a little yellowed, but from the little I know about plants, my guess is that these weren't the best of specimens. 





But as with the Crypts, I have faith in the pants ability to recover. 
The Cordifolius was the big buggerance factor of the replant. Despite adding some more akadama on the roof of the cave, I had real problems trying to get the roots to stay buried and almost every plant floated free … at least once … or five times. It was most frustrating when the tank was almost completely refilled, and one plant floated free, and replanting that uprooted three more  but I got there in the end.





A couple of my other recent threads have dealt with my missing Ottos and Amanos. I've seen relatively little of either in the last few months, and I don't think I've seen an Ottos for a couple of weeks or more. Add the fact that I had a spate of unexplained deaths, and my failure to catch either species in a bottle trap, I had serious doubts that there were any left alive in the tank. But having removed all the other fish to a temporary tank for a few hours, out they all came, despite my rummaging around and churning up the substrate. At least 5 each of the Ottos and Amanos. And I figure if I can find 5 of each, there's a pretty good chance the 6th is ok too. So I' really chuffed about that. Unfortunately, as soon as the other fish went back in the tank, the Ottos disappeared again, and  so have most of the shrimps.

I did try to take some photos to prove they’re still there, but this was the closest I got to a usable picture.




There is a bizarre foot note to the replanting process.
My tank has a couple of openings for pipes etc. As condensation was giving me minor issues with warping of the wooden lid, I had covered these holes up with cling film. (I shall get round to something more permanent one day.)  As I was putting the lid back on the tank I spotted a desiccated corpse – one of the two Killifish that I'd lost. I knew one had died, but the other had just gone missing. It seems there must have been a slight gap between the glass and the cling film, and the fish must have just jumped out of the water and got stuck. A real pity, but pretty much unforeseeable.





The whole tank has a very different feeling with the new plants, and it definitely needs to grow a little to look good again. The changes have made me think I probably trimmed the Taiwan Moss (RHS wood) more than I should have. But it seems to grow easily. So whilst I'm happy it will grow back, I may delay getting some CRS until it has filled out again.

And the obligatory tank shot ...


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## idris (1 May 2012)

After a year of the tank being up and running (and about 4 months since I last updated this journal) I thought it over due that I did an update.





Plant growth has been generally pleasing. 
The *Vallis Americana* has thrived, and when I've given it the opportunity, has grown to about 5ft in length and has put out loads of runners. I think if I let it, it would take over the whole tank, but I given a load away.
The *Amazon Swords* again have done ok. There are the odd melting leaves once in a while, but nothing that concerns me greatly.
The *Crypt Wenditti* grew pretty well, but don't seem to have tried to spread in the way the Vallis and Swords have, but that may be a characteristic of Crypts – I don't know.





The *Echinodorus Cordifolius* hasn't been a success. Of 9 plants that went in originally, only three have survived. As documented, they weren't the best of specimens when they arrived, but I was hopeful they'd recover. Sadly I was wrong. I do like how they look, and they fill the centre well, but I'd guess it would be good if they'd been healthier to start with.

If the Cordifolius didn't do well, the *Cryptocoryne Lingua * was a disaster. Of the 10 plants that went in, none survived. They weren't in good condition when they went in to the tank (I kept them in in a bucket, rather than the tank until the whole of my order was delivered, to make planting less of a chore) but to end up with none was very disappointing.

And the *Echinodorus Tennellus * didn’t do much better. About 25 plants went in and maybe only 4 or 5 are still going. To be fair, this may not be entirely down sub standard plants or my failure to provide them with suitable conditions, as they were plagued by male Gouramis, desperate to show off, building bubble nests, and they were constantly digging up the Tennellus.





On the wood, the *Round Pelia* has done really well. Possibly too well. Although I trimmed it back a while ago, I have not particularly kept on top of the Pelia, and whilst it has done really well on the wood it was originally attached to, it has also spread anywhere it could. As a result, every once in a while I find myself pulling up large clumps of it from between the Amazon Swords and Crypts.

The *Taiwan Moss* did really well to start with. (See pictures from Jan at the top of page 16.) The I cut it back, and it's never really recovered. There are plenty of small wispy pieces to be found around the tank, and there is still some on the wood, but it has never filled out to what it was before I trimmed it. I've tried to remember recently whether the trimming coincided with me stopping using ferts (because I ran out and didn't get round to buying more), which could account for the moss failing to grow, but I really cant remember the timing. I have recently bought some more all-in-one ferts from Aquarium Plant Food and we'll see if that makes a difference.

Right




There's a degree to which I'm hoping adding ferts will also help with the algal problems I've had. Despite GDA only being supposed to have something like a 6 week life cycle, mine has resolutely refused to go away. I've also had filamental algae problems, which are particularly bad just now on some of the Vallis and the Cordifolius. From what I’ve read, adding ferts may actually work in favour plants and in tern that may give the algae less of a life line. We'll see.

Not that the algae can be blamed exclusively on a lack of ferts. If you look at the back of the tank in the top pic, and reference it against pictures early in this journal, you'll see that the filter outlet has never changed. And the pipes have never been quite what I intended. For a very long time, I have meant to make some new pipes – larger diameter, and with a proper spray bar. This should help with circulation, which in turn, should help combat the likes of the GDA.

One other minor hardware point of note is that, having had the doors for the cabinet reconstructed by Beaumont Joiners in Redbourne (whose staff repeatedly lied to me about progress, and even then did what I consider a very poor job) the centre panels of the doors have both subsequently split. This makes me think the job they did was done even more badly that just in terms of aesthetics. And I'm not sure what the long term solution is to that.

As for livestock …

I have had a couple of bad periods with fish illness. As a result, I have lost half the original Neons, 6 out of 9 Dwarf Red Gouramis, 3 out of 4 Kilifish, and all 6 Dwarf Blue Rainbows. This has not all been in one hit, though I did have a worrying period where quite a lot of fish dies suddenly, and without an obvious reason. But the system seemed to stabilise, and I have since added 6 Lemon Tetras, and 6 Cherry barbs. And all seems healthy at the moment. 

The Amanos went AWOL for quite a few months and were hardly ever seen, but in the  last month or so have become really quite active: it is currently not uncommon for me to see 5 at any one time (6 went in originally) and there are regularly discarded shucks to be found. 

An apparent absence that does disappoint me a little is the Ottos. I think it was around the time the Gouramis went it, I stopped seeing the Ottos. Though I did find 5 when I did the replant in December, I have rarely seen any and when I have, it has been a solitary fish, in the middle of the night. That's not to say they're not there, but it would be nice to see them more often.

Over all, I'm not unhappy with the last year, but there are issues I need to address. I've lost more fish than I would like. I've got more algae that I would like. And do need to find some plants to fill the centre foreground. I had considered adding some CRS, but I think I have now ruled that out for the moment, on grounds of unsuitable tank mates. 

So more work still to do, but certainly not a disaster.


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## jack-rythm (17 Nov 2012)

wow.. just wow.. thats is one truly thought out journal.. love it. great odd size too  well done mate


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## idris (17 Nov 2012)

Thanks. 
To be honest, the tank's not in quite such a good state at the moment. 

After I trimmed back the Taiwan Moss (on the right) it never recovered. There is very little left on the wood, and none on the cave roof. 
The Pelia has run a mock and no only has it pretty much covered the wood (on the left) I could probably harvest quite a bit from the floor of the tank. 
The growth of the Valis has slowed dramatically.
The Tennellus has all died, as has the Lingua and most of the Cordifoliu . 
The Amazons and Wenditi have proved pretty resiliant. 

Algae has thrived, predominantly GDA (which has proved very persistent) and what I think is brush algae. 
I've long intended to improve the circulation in the tank to try to combat this, but have just never got round to it. 

My livestock seem pretty happy, but I've given up on the Ottos. 

Hopefully I'll get round to giving everything a bit of an overhaul some time soon, but I suspect it won't be till the far side of Xmas now.


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## jack-rythm (17 Nov 2012)

I'm sorry its going so badly mate, stick with it. You will get through the thunder  

Sent from my Nexus 7


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## idris (20 Nov 2012)

It's not reeally going badly - everything's stable enough just now. I think it's just down to poor choice of plants, less than ideal tank dynamics and a bit of neglect on my part.

On the up side, having decided at the weekend that my Ottos must have all died months ago, I saw one this morning. Yhe must be telepathic!


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