# Tired of gsa and bba



## sflaqua34 (11 Jan 2022)

Ok, so I’ve finally decided I need some advice. I have a decent amount of gsa on old marsilea growth and epiphyte leaves, some bba on old leaves, and a lot on the rocks. For the gsa, is my phosphate level still too low?

Tank- High Tech UNS 60u (20 gallons)
Lighting- Chihiros wrgb2 recently increased to 100% (algae has been ongoing tho before changing lighting intensity) from 2-9, 0hrs ramp time
CO2 - 2-3 bps, turns drop checker lime (pic taken at 330 so reading is at about 130 before the lights came on)
Substrate- UNS controsoil with Osmocote root tabs
Ferts - 1/32 tsp kh2po4 x3
            1/8 tsp k2so4 x3
             1/64 tsp kno3 x3
             1/64 tsp plantex csm+b x1
Paramaters
Nitrate - between 0 and 5
Nitrite - 0
Ammonia - 0
Po4 - 1

Filter - Oase filtosmart 200

50% Water change once a week

Pics


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## arcturus (11 Jan 2022)

Try decreasing the lights and increasing the macros for a while. Also check if there is sufficient water circulation in the tank, including at the substrate/carpet plant level. The full tank photo seems to show that the CO2 bubbles are mostly concentrated on the right side of the tank, but this is difficult to check from an image.


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## MichaelJ (11 Jan 2022)

sflaqua34 said:


> For the gsa, is my phosphate level still too low?


Hi @sflaqua34  I would bump the PO4 to 5ppm/wk or so.  I've had great success with high PO4 vs. GSA. But definitely, also look into your CO2 situation (dosing/flow), and in the meantime lower your light intensity (not necessarily the hours) and keep up the WCs.

Cheers,
Michael


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## hypnogogia (11 Jan 2022)

sflaqua34 said:


> Lighting- Chihiros wrgb2 recently increased to 100% (algae has been ongoing tho before changing lighting intensity) from 2-9, 0hrs ramp time


7hrs at 100% is a lot of light.  What was it before you increased it?  I’d certainly reduce it to below its previous level.


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## sflaqua34 (11 Jan 2022)

Ight I’ll do both those, it was around 75 before, I only increased it a few days ago. Also the gsa was around before the wrgb2 which I got for Christmas, I previously was using a fugeray planted+

Imma up po4 and turn light to 70 for now


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## sflaqua34 (11 Jan 2022)

arcturus said:


> Try decreasing the lights and increasing the macros for a while. Also check if there is sufficient water circulation in the tank, including at the substrate/carpet plant level. The full tank photo seems to show that the CO2 bubbles are mostly concentrated on the right side of the tank, but this is difficult to check from an image.


Myb I didn’t respond to u,

CO2 does manage to circulate around the entire way, flow looks suitable by watching the bubbles to me. By macros I assume you mean mostly my kno3 dosing?


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## arcturus (11 Jan 2022)

sflaqua34 said:


> Myb I didn’t respond to u,
> 
> CO2 does manage to circulate around the entire way, flow looks suitable by watching the bubbles to me.


That’s good. Is the drop checker lime green at lights on? Does it remain lime green just before lights off? Have you checked (via pH profile) if the CO2 remains stable while lights are on?

GSA and BBA are often a result of nutrient deficiency or issues with CO2 injection. You might have too much light for the CO2 and nutrients you are providing. Low PO4 is sometimes also pointed out as a potential factor for GSA.



sflaqua34 said:


> By macros I assume you mean mostly my kno3 dosing?


All of them. You want to remove nutrient deficiency from the equation. In your case  increase the NO3 and PO4. This will also increase K because your macro salts are based on K. What weekly ppm are you targeting with your doses? I am not entirely sure how much is a tsp to do the proper calculations. You should also check what are the accumulated K levels in your tank due to your salt mix.


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## sflaqua34 (12 Jan 2022)

arcturus said:


> That’s good. Is the drop checker lime green at lights on? Does it remain lime green just before lights off? Have you checked (via pH profile) if the CO2 remains stable while lights are on?
> 
> GSA and BBA are often a result of nutrient deficiency or issues with CO2 injection. You might have too much light for the CO2 and nutrients you are providing. Low PO4 is sometimes also pointed out as a potential factor for GSA.
> 
> ...


I have not checked really with pH, I can look into this. 

My K concentration calculations a while back were 20.7 ppm per week, I was trying to replicate the ADA system. This was w/ 1/64 tsp KH2PO4 which is now doubled and will be increased more now, probably doubled again. Wdym by check the accumulated levels, like with a test kit? Because if so I have not seen a K test kit for freshwater before


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## MichaelJ (12 Jan 2022)

sflaqua34 said:


> I have not checked really with pH, I can look into this.
> 
> My K concentration calculations a while back were 20.7 ppm per week, I was trying to replicate the ADA system. This was w/ 1/64 tsp KH2PO4 which is now doubled and will be increased more now, probably doubled again.


Hi @sflaqua34   You should check your dosing measurements. Teaspoons are not a meaningful measure as it can vary quite a bit - and how the heck do you measure out 1/64th of a teaspoon anyway and by what standard? medical, cooking, US, UK,  EU ? ... get a microgram scale such as this and state your measurements in grams  


Cheers,
Michael


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## sflaqua34 (12 Jan 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> Hi @sflaqua34   You should check your dosing measurements. Teaspoons are not a meaningful measure as it can vary quite a bit - and how the heck do you measure out 1/64th of a teaspoon anyway and by what standard? medical, cooking, US, UK,  EU ? ... get a microgram scale such as this and state your measurements in grams
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Michael


True I never realized this. I use a set of mini spoons from Amazon and I looked up some conversions online but they may not apply the way I think they do making my calculations off. Time for more chemistry and stoichiometry lol


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## Mr.Shenanagins (12 Jan 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> Hi @sflaqua34   You should check your dosing measurements. Teaspoons are not a meaningful measure as it can vary quite a bit - and how the heck do you measure out 1/64th of a teaspoon anyway and by what standard? medical, cooking, US, UK,  EU ? ... get a microgram scale such as this and state your measurements in grams
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Michael


Yeah I have a similar set of spoons from Amazon, 1/64 is the smallest size. Believe the intention is food grade measurements. I always do rounded scoops to compensate for +/- error.


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## arcturus (12 Jan 2022)

sflaqua34 said:


> True I never realized this. I use a set of mini spoons from Amazon and I looked up some conversions online but they may not apply the way I think they do making my calculations off. Time for more chemistry and stoichiometry lol


Those quantities are way too small to measure and can introduce a very significant error margin. If a tsp is 4g, then 1/64 is 0.06g... With such a small amount you can very easily add half or double the amount depending on the compactness and humidity of the particular salt. You should review the quantities so that you use a few grams of each salt in your mix. If the resulting mix has a too high concentration then you can always dilute it. You want to mix the salts and then dose the resulting liquid mix in quantities that are easy to measure. The goal is to produce the same fertilizer mix consistently over time.

And since you are using a lean ADA clone fert regime, you need to be much more precise about the salt amounts because you can easily run into nutrient deficiencies if those tiny amounts of salts are not correct. If you were dosing in excess with EI this would not be a problem.


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## arcturus (12 Jan 2022)

sflaqua34 said:


> True I never realized this. I use a set of mini spoons from Amazon and I looked up some conversions online but they may not apply the way I think they do making my calculations off. Time for more chemistry and stoichiometry lol


Those quantities are way too small to measure and can introduce a very significant error margin. If a tsp is 4g, then 1/64 is 0.06g... With such a small amount you can very easily add half or double the amount depending on the compactness and humidity of the particular salt. You should review the quantities so that you use a few grams of each salt in your mix. If the resulting mix has a too high concentration then you can always dilute it. You want to mix the salts and then dose the resulting liquid mix in quantities that are easy to measure. The goal is to produce the same fertilizer mix consistently over time.

And since you are using a lean ADA clone fert regime, you need to be much more precise about the salt amounts because you can easily run into nutrient deficiencies if those tiny amounts of salts are not correct. If you were dosing in excess with EI this would not be a problem.


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## sflaqua34 (12 Jan 2022)

I see what you're saying. The main reason I have not done this is because I would always run into mold forming in the micros that I couldn't seem to get rid of despite adding a decent amount of seachem excel. Also fridge is not a great option for me as that is downstairs and my tank is upstairs in my bedroom (I'm in high school btw so live w/ parents). I could return to dosing EI, I used to dose EI but ran into other algaes there. An additional reason for not dosing EI is that I want to try to keep nitrates to low to hopefully get the rotala hra deep red. Suggestions for mold in the micros (and where to get RO water)? 

But in essence, this seems to be boiling down to nutrient levels. Should I just cave and buy something like APT that _might_ solve this for me?


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## arcturus (12 Jan 2022)

sflaqua34 said:


> I see what you're saying. The main reason I have not done this is because I would always run into mold forming in the micros that I couldn't seem to get rid of despite adding a decent amount of seachem excel. Also fridge is not a great option for me as that is downstairs and my tank is upstairs in my bedroom (I'm in high school btw so live w/ parents).
> I could return to dosing EI, I used to dose EI but ran into other algaes there. An additional reason for not dosing EI is that I want to try to keep nitrates to low to hopefully get the rotala hra deep red. Suggestions for mold in the micros (and where to get RO water)?


You can reduce/avoid the mold by adding <ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate> to the mix.

The macros are quite easy to prepare. But the micros are more complicated because of the number of elements needed and other required substances such as chelators. I would suggest you get a dry mix with all the micro salts (<like this>) or buy a liquid complete micro/trace fertilizer. This will make sure that you are using the correct micros while your tank improves.



sflaqua34 said:


> (and where to get RO water)?


You can use distilled water instead of RO water. It should be available in most hardware stores or drugstores. A large jug will last for a while.



sflaqua34 said:


> An additional reason for not dosing EI is that I want to try to keep nitrates to low to hopefully get the rotala hra deep red.


Sure. But first you need to have sustained healthy plant growth without algae. Then you can start playing around with the nutrients. Otherwise you will just get more algae instead of red rotalas 



sflaqua34 said:


> But in essence, this seems to be boiling down to nutrient levels. Should I just cave and buy something like APT that _might_ solve this for me?


EI will not cause algae by itself. But it can certainly promote algae if the rest of the tank is not in balance because there will be more nutrients in the water column available not only for the plants but also for the algae. But if the plants do not get enough nutrients and become unhealthy then you will have algae. It is about balance. And since you are using CO2, you really need to make sure that CO2 concentration is stable during the day, sufficient CO2 for the amount of light, and that you enough distribution/flow inside the tank.


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## sflaqua34 (12 Jan 2022)

arcturus said:


> You can reduce/avoid the mold by adding <ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate> to the mix.


Ok cool, how much do you recommend?


arcturus said:


> The macros are quite easy to prepare. But the micros are more complicated because of the number of elements needed and other required substances such as chelators. I would suggest you get a dry mix with all the micro salts (<like this>) or buy a liquid complete micro/trace fertilizer. This will make sure that you are using the correct micros while your tank improves.


Can't click the link (in school lmao) but I use plantex csm+b for micros (which is one mix)


arcturus said:


> You can use distilled water instead of RO water. It should be available in most hardware stores or drugstores. A large jug will last for a while.


Ok I thought so


arcturus said:


> Sure. But first you need to have sustained healthy plant growth without algae. Then you can start playing around with the nutrients. Otherwise you will just get more algae instead of red rotalas


Yea maybe getting ahead of myself there lol


arcturus said:


> EI will not cause algae by itself. But it can certainly promote algae if the rest of the tank is not in balance because there will be more nutrients in the water column available not only for the plants but also for the algae. But if the plants do not get enough nutrients and become unhealthy then you will have algae. It is about balance. And since you are using CO2, you really need to make sure that CO2 concentration is stable during the day, sufficient CO2 for the amount of light, and that you enough distribution/flow inside the tank.


Yes, Ik that something else was off, but EI made that even more obvious to me.


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## arcturus (12 Jan 2022)

sflaqua34 said:


> Ok cool, how much do you recommend?


A usual recommendation is ~1 gram ascorbic acid (E300) + ~0.4 gram potassium sorbate (E202) for every 1 litre of distilled or RO water used in the fertilizer solution. Ideally, try to make a fertilizer batch for a maximum of ~1 month. This will also help reducing mold. Do not use transparent bottles and keep them in a dark place, especially the micros solution.


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## sflaqua34 (12 Jan 2022)

Ight, will look into getting ascorbic acid, potassium sorbate, and a scale; 

Meanwhile going to increase macros

Thanks, we'll see what happens


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## sflaqua34 (12 Jan 2022)

I decided for the price of the stuff I need to get accurate w my dosing that I could just try apt instead. So I ordered some apt complete, which should allow me to eliminate nutrients as a cause

Thanks everyone I will hopefully remember to update


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## sflaqua34 (22 Jan 2022)

Update
One week in on apt complete, light still on 60%

Algae is definitely receding and tank is looking pretty good

I think maybe another week or two and then I’ll start increasing light to get more rotala color


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## eminor (23 Jan 2022)

folks say that bba is triggered by inconsistent co2/ low level, my first tank was a mess, small filter, crazy high light, almost no ferts, i used diy co2 with yeast, there is nothing more inconsistent than that. I never had BBA during the entire life of the scape (1 year), since i upgraded to pressurized, i got BBA. the more i take care about the tank the more i get trouble it seems =)

with the now scape, i try to focus on co2, maintenance is good, i tried lots of things, can't beat bba, i havee a little bit, but you need to really search about it to see it, i think that nobody really know why that algae really come, if it's co2 why i never got it in my first scape ?

i did crazy things in the first scape, really cold water change, running filter without media for months... tha tank should've crashed but no, it was solid, no BBA anywhere, i had staghorn which disappeared a week after a water change, i did water change once a month...


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## Tom101 (3 Feb 2022)

Hey @sflaqua34 I've recently recovered from a catastrophic BBA issue in my 70L low tech. It persisted for about 6 months and was then solved when I did the following:

Cleaned my filter intake (to maximise flow downstream)
Positioned filter output slightly above the waterline (to maximise flow, surface diffusion and turbulence)
Did a deep clean of my canister filter (and I now regularly schedule that into my maintenance routine)
Did a deep clean of my substrate with a gravel vac (and I now regularly schedule that into my maintenance routine)
Turn my lights down 

Hope the above helps.

Funnily enough I'm now dealing with a GSA issue, it's been kindly suggested by other members to dose some extra Phosphate. I've started trialing that this week.


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