# How would you position 3x lilly pipes outflow/inflow running on 3x canister filters ..Staghorn and bba comming back.



## Stefan34 (5 Aug 2021)

Hi guys!
I'm fighting with a bit of staghorn and BBA as I get rid of it and it's always coming back after a while.

My setup :
450l optic white 
2x oase biomaster Thermo 600 with seachem matrix and purigen {  Both filters are outflow and inflow are on the same side / one of the filters connected to the external co2 reactor ] 
on the opposite side pump jebao set to 5000l/h connected to the all pond solution 1000 {impeller removed /with matrix and purigen] then to co2 external reactor than to chiller and back to aqua.

the reason why I'm asking is as I'm trying to figure out why the staghorn is coming back...I'm trying to do proper maintenance every week using a turkey blaster to get rid of most of the organic waste from soil wood and stones.
.its that the issue as my trident and Bolbitis have the staghorn as I didn't clean the plants properly inside as I only blow turkey blaster on it if some mock coming out but not much.{or should the plants be removed and clean properly}?
 my tank parameters 

Ro water  60-70% weekly change,cleaning filters every week and pipes, hoses every second or third week { depend on how dirty they are.
Light 6x80 w ati full spectrum 2x giesmann super flora,1x ati purple,1x red , 1x 830 Osram,1x 865 Osram,
par reading near substrate 130-140 used photone app LED full spectrum {recomendation from developers as my bulbs are mixture for full spectrum]
Ph before co2 6.5 
After injecting co2 5.3 
kh 1 
GH 4-5 
remineralizing with seachem EQ.tropica soil with tropica plant food + Tropica root tabs combi with seachem flourish tabs.


Can the staghorn pop up by overdosing iron {seachem iron} ..As I notice my HEMIANTHUS CALLITRICHOIDES the top leaves start to get white leaves as well rotala blood too..From what I was searching that if the plants turning white there is iron missing ...I have been following seachem dosing calculator...Googe another website said too as overdosing iron can pop up staghorn algae.
But since I increase iron to 0.6ppm -1 ppm weekly the staghorn pop up with some BBA too.
Ammonia 0 by API test.
nitrite same nitrate 5 ppm.
now dosing  only 15ml seachem iron weekly 
K- arrond 20ppm as seachem equlibrium contain 40ppm of K {discussion with seachem team].
seachem trace  30 ml and advance 30ml  by seachem dosing calculator.

Sorry, guys if it is too messy but I'm just trying to figure out where can be the issue..

Hope someone with more experience can help and give direction. I will really welcome it!


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## plantnoobdude (5 Aug 2021)

i'm of absolutely no help. but i can't help but admire your ATI t5 fixture.


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## Gorillastomp (5 Aug 2021)

Would need to know what is your entire fertilizer routine, because if you dose only iron it's not enough with that type of lighting. BTW i like the scape, it looks great!



Stefan34 said:


> From what I was searching that if the plants turning white there is iron missing



In my experience, when plants turn white its a nitrate deficiency. When you dose the proper amount these should comeback to their usual or regain color.

Did you do a PH profile to see how it act during the photoperiod ?


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## plantnoobdude (5 Aug 2021)

Gorillastomp said:


> Would need to know what is your entire fertilizer routine, because if you dose only iron it's not enough with that type of lighting. BTW i like the scape, it looks great!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


it's not necessarily the colour the plants are turning. more where it is occuring. if it is occuring in old leaves N would be the prime suspect as N is a mobile plant nutrient, and plants can relocate it in order to facilitate new growth. if new growth it stunted and white, it is probably Fe or one of the other immobile plant micro nutrients.

I'd try figure out plant growth while killing the algae weekly with an algaecide such as hydrogen peroxide or seachem excel. as you improve plant growth the algae should go away eventually. seachem products are extremely expensive and i wouldn't recommend them for a large tank as they are extremely dilluted as well. have you looked into dry ferts @Gorillastomp?  cheers,


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## Courtneybst (6 Aug 2021)

Yes sorry, couldn't help but notice the scape is beautiful!!

I'm watching along to see what others advise. I hope you find resolution.


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## Gorillastomp (6 Aug 2021)

plantnoobdude said:


> have you looked into dry ferts @Gorillastomp?


i don't think that was towards me, but yes i am using dry fert.

@Stefan34 Ok i just saw you added your fertilizer routine in the photos.  With this you are adding like nothing for the nitrate and phosphate. Something like 2 ppm nitrates and 0.3 ppm PO4 per 2 weeks while potassium at 30 ppm weekly. So i would look into this.  Some guidance would be around 21 ppm NO3 and 3 ppm of PO4 a week even though you may need more with this much light.

I think @plantnoobdude question was towards you. You should look into dry ferts, it will be way less expensive than seachem product for this tank size. 

It seems you only have bba/staghorn in the middle area ? If so it is probably a flow issue in this area, usually bba/staghorn is related to fluctuation in co2 concentration. So maybe you have some death spot in the middle due to your wood scaping and how your lily pipe are setup.  How old is your glossostigma ? If they were added at the same time as the rest, you can tell there is co2 deficiency around there also because its not really dense compared to the rest.



Stefan34 said:


> 2x oase biomaster Thermo 600 with seachem matrix and purigen { Both filters are outflow and inflow are on the same side / one of the filters connected to the external co2 reactor ]
> on the opposite side pump jebao set to 5000l/h connected to the all pond solution 1000 {impeller removed /with matrix and purigen] then to co2 external reactor than to chiller and back to aqua.



This is a bit confusing are you using 2 reactors ?



I think it's a bit of both, lack of nutrients and CO2 in some area.  Mostly plants that are attacked are the epiphyte plants, the one that takes nutrient from the water column which your are really lean.


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## Stefan34 (6 Aug 2021)

Gorillastomp said:


> Would need to know what is your entire fertilizer routine, because if you dose only iron it's not enough with that type of lighting. BTW i like the scape, it looks great!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


hi.Thx for reply...From my experience and a lot of reading and watching they are many aquascapers that prefer lean dosing with rich soil for slow growth..My goal is slow growth to not do weekly trimming and as well after lean dosing the plants will get more colorful etc rotala blood-red should be blood red under strong light but is not at the moment....So if the plants don't have inaff nutrition in the water they will take it from the soil and grow slower.....By the way I'm degassed my ro water for 3 days in barrel after adding EQ to 120tds the ph measure by ph controller was 6.5 ...So with co2 there is no issue ..i can't go lower.If the shrimps start to respond like crazy and try to jump out from the tank which means too much co2...


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## Stefan34 (6 Aug 2021)

plantnoobdude said:


> it's not necessarily the colour the plants are turning. more where it is occuring. if it is occuring in old leaves N would be the prime suspect as N is a mobile plant nutrient, and plants can relocate it in order to facilitate new growth. if new growth it stunted and white, it is probably Fe or one of the other immobile plant micro nutrients.
> 
> I'd try figure out plant growth while killing the algae weekly with an algaecide such as hydrogen peroxide or seachem excel. as you improve plant growth the algae should go away eventually. seachem products are extremely expensive and i wouldn't recommend them for a large tank as they are extremely dilluted as well. have you looked into dry ferts @Gorillastomp?  cheers,


hi. thx for the reply..Yes i did ..the problem in a past was it didn't really dissolve properly especially k2so4 and I have many problems with it.. a lot of algae ....but I'm thinking carefully to go forit again


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## Stefan34 (6 Aug 2021)

plantnoobdude said:


> it's not necessarily the colour the plants are turning. more where it is occuring. if it is occuring in old leaves N would be the prime suspect as N is a mobile plant nutrient, and plants can relocate it in order to facilitate new growth. if new growth it stunted and white, it is probably Fe or one of the other immobile plant micro nutrients.
> 
> I'd try figure out plant growth while killing the algae weekly with an algaecide such as hydrogen peroxide or seachem excel. as you improve plant growth the algae should go away eventually. seachem products are extremely expensive and i wouldn't recommend them for a large tank as they are extremely dilluted as well. have you looked into dry ferts @Gorillastomp?  cheers,


i did that with 3 % h202 and my pinnatifida completely melted..


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## Stefan34 (6 Aug 2021)

Gorillastomp said:


> i don't think that was towards me, but yes i am using dry fert.
> 
> @Stefan34 Ok i just saw you added your fertilizer routine in the photos.  With this you are adding like nothing for the nitrate and phosphate. Something like 2 ppm nitrates and 0.3 ppm PO4 per 2 weeks while potassium at 30 ppm weekly. So i would look into this.  Some guidance would be around 21 ppm NO3 and 3 ppm of PO4 a week even though you may need more with this much light.
> 
> ...


Glosso its after trimming thats why it looks like that...I have to trim it almost every week to kepp compact and spread at the bottom as it likkes to spread the roots upwards..


Gorillastomp said:


> This is a bit confusing are you using 2 reactors ?


Yes I'm using 2 reactors ..More efficient...How would you solve the issue with the flow.?i did try add 2000l pump at the bottom but the plats was moving a lot seems to me...


Gorillastomp said:


> I think it's a bit of both, lack of nutrients and CO2 in some area.  Mostly plants that are attacked are the epiphyte plants, the one that takes nutrient from the water column which your are really lean


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## Stefan34 (6 Aug 2021)

Gorillastomp said:


> Would need to know what is your entire fertilizer routine, because if you dose only iron it's not enough with that type of lighting. BTW i like the scape, it looks great!





Gorillastomp said:


> In my experience, when plants turn white its a nitrate deficiency. When you dose the proper amount these should comeback to their usual or regain color.
> 
> Did you do a PH profile to see how it act during the photoperiod ?





Gorillastomp said:


> i don't think that was towards me, but yes i am using dry fert.
> 
> @Stefan34 Ok i just saw you added your fertilizer routine in the photos.  With this you are adding like nothing for the nitrate and phosphate. Something like 2 ppm nitrates and 0.3 ppm PO4 per 2 weeks while potassium at 30 ppm weekly. So i would look into this.  Some guidance would be around 21 ppm NO3 and 3 ppm of PO4 a week even though you may need more with this much light.
> 
> ...


The thing is that the more nitrate you add that more the plants will grow and that's i don't want as my goal is to keep the plants longer under strong lights and keep them compact to avoid  weekly trimming...So if the plants don't have npk in the water they will take from the roots..


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## plantnoobdude (6 Aug 2021)

Gorillastomp said:


> i don't think that was towards me, but yes i am using dry fert.


that was a mistake haha. sorry about that.


Stefan34 said:


> hi. thx for the reply..Yes i did ..the problem in a past was it didn't really dissolve properly especially k2so4 and I have many problems with it.. a lot of algae ....but I'm thinking carefully to go forit again


maybe you can do lean dosing with dry ferts. 10ppm N, 1ppm PO4, and 6-10ppm K?
ukaps fert calculator is very good and also shows solubility limits which is extremely helpful.








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Hello everyone,  Based on its ancestor, the new IFC Aquarium Fertilizer Calculator is completed at last. This has been a long (sometimes fun, sometimes painful) adventure for me. I have spend more time than I care to admit but here it is, ready to roll. Home screenshot here below:  Background...



					www.ukaps.org
				




if gorrila's quote here is correct. (I don't have time to double check math at the moment)
"Ok i just saw you added your fertilizer routine in the photos. With this you are adding like nothing for the nitrate and phosphate. Something like 2 ppm nitrates and 0.3 ppm PO4 per 2 weeks while potassium at 30 ppm weekly. So i would look into this. Some guidance would be around 21 ppm NO3 and 3 ppm of PO4 a week even though you may need more with this much light."
you're dosing extremely lean, and that won't work well especially with RO. i'd up dosing to atleast 10ppmN, 1ppm P and 6-10ppm K. especially because you have a lot of fast growing stems.
an npk ratio of 10:1:10 is good for non-limiting growth. maybe 0.2-0.4ppm Fe.





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If you're wanting to start Ei dosing or PMDD and not sure where to start, this is the right package for you. You get all you need, all you need to do, is pop them in the bottle and mix, whatever mixture you are creating, you will get plenty of dry salts




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aquarium plant food uk is a sponsor if i remember correctly. and their fert kit is extremely good value for money.
you can adjust the recipe for your needs.
At the end of the day, I think unhealthy growth is causing your algae. good growth will deter most if not all algae.


Stefan34 said:


> The thing is that the more nitrate you add that more the plants will grow and that's i don't want as my goal is to keep the plants longer under strong lights and keep them compact to avoid  weekly trimming...So if the plants don't have npk in the water they will take from the roots..


you can have slow growth to an extent, but if it's causing unhealthy growth/deficiency. you will get algae. you can still have lean dosing just not 3ppm N per week lean.
cheers, plantnoob


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## erwin123 (6 Aug 2021)

Stefan34 said:


> .My goal is slow growth to not do weekly trimming and as well after lean dosing the plants will get more colorful etc rotala blood-red should be blood red under strong light but is not at the moment....







You have a nice tank!

I don't think Rotala Blood Red requires nitrate limitation.  

Here's my low tech tank without CO2 injection and lean dosing (because its low tech). You can see the new growth of Blood Red at the top is yellow. The bottom red part was when it was in my tank with CO2. However, the old red leaves are still red and not melting. While my desk lamp is not the brightest, its less than 10cm away from the top of the stems.  

In my tank with Co2, the blood reds are heavily shaded by C. Retrospiralis leaves but are doing ok.


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## Gorillastomp (7 Aug 2021)

Stefan34 said:


> The thing is that the more nitrate you add that more the plants will grow and that's i don't want as my goal is to keep the plants longer under strong lights and keep them compact to avoid weekly trimming...So if the plants don't have npk in the water they will take from the roots..


Keep in mind that your epiphyte plants like bolbotis, anubias, ferns, buce do take nutrients from water column. Even though they are slow growing plants, you are injecting CO2 and have high light on them. You were stating a 140 PAR at substrate so in the middle of the tank they have probably around 200+. AT the same you said you were using Photone apps, I don't know accurate it is.  You may just need a little bit more water column dosing for these plants to be happy and thrive. 

If you look at ADA fertilizer regimen, they do dose between 2-6 ppm of nitrate a week and their light is way lower than 140 PAR (If i remember correctly from an article they were more around the 50 PAR marks.) ADA seems to use a lot of ferns, anubias etc in their aquascape.


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## Stefan34 (7 Aug 2021)

Gorillastomp said:


> Keep in mind that your epiphyte plants like bolbotis, anubias, ferns, buce do take nutrients from water column. Even though they are slow growing plants, you are injecting CO2 and have high light on them. You were stating a 140 PAR at substrate so in the middle of the tank they have probably around 200+. AT the same you said you were using Photone apps, I don't know accurate it is.  You may just need a little bit more water column dosing for these plants to be happy and thrive.
> 
> If you look at ADA fertilizer regimen, they do dose between 2-6 ppm of nitrate a week and their light is way lower than 140 PAR (If i remember correctly from an article they were more around the 50 PAR marks.) ADA seems to use a lot of ferns, anubias etc in their aquascape.


thx for the reply mate..My ro water has it 5ppm of nitrate TDS 9-15 depend if the cartridges are new or used...You can not get 0 nitrates from ro water unit if ou not using resin...So with those am adding 5 + 2 ..7 ppm weekly.....By the way, i got fed up yesterday and I took all the trident bolbidiss and anubias out and blow there with a turkey blaster, and honestly a couldn't believe my eyes how much organic waste was there.!!!!!. A lot really a lot...So that is probably the main cause of BBA and staghorn ..Is there any other way how to prevent sitting the mock and waste there ? Strong pump directing flow on the ferns?,,Thanks


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## Stefan34 (7 Aug 2021)

erwin123 said:


> You have a nice tank!
> 
> I don't think Rotala Blood Red requires nitrate limitation.
> 
> ...


Nice one..I have to figure out somehow where is the problem as my blood getting bit red but mostly green..I will increase the ferts and i can only hope.


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## X3NiTH (7 Aug 2021)

With the amount of light that your epiphytes are receiving the addition of supplemental co2 will drive demand for nutrition, you can do whatever you want within reason with the macro nutrients but you absolutely need sufficient micro fertilisation, if this is cut back because there is algae appearing then it’s the exact opposite of what you should be doing, you need to add more because the metals provided are utilised by plants to deal with the tissue damaging oxygen produced by photosynthesis which in your case is full steam ahead and the plants aren’t coping and are obliterating themselves. Iron, Zinc and Manganese are easily oxidised and will become unavailable over time, using these elements with an appropriate chelate such as EDTA allows extended availability, if using unchelated nutrients (DIY) you can expect they will quickly leave the water column and need to be redosed at least every other day if not daily depending on plant mass. They don’t need masses of these elements they just need way more than what comes out the tap and because they are non persistent they need topped up over time.


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## ceg4048 (7 Aug 2021)

Stefan34 said:


> Can the staghorn pop up by overdosing iron {seachem iron}


No, both staghorn and BBA are CO2 related algae.
Your minimum pH reading (5.3?) should occur at or around lights on.
Also, placing a filter outflow at an opposing angle as shown in your sketch, is not usually a good idea as it typically results in flow cancellation. It would be better if all outflows were on the same side. Ideally, it would be even better if the outflows were placed evenly spaced along the back wall pointing forward, but that may be impractical.
Nice tank by the way!
Cheers,


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## Stefan34 (8 Aug 2021)

ceg4048 said:


> No, both staghorn and BBA are CO2 related algae.
> Your minimum pH reading (5.3?) should occur at or around lights on.
> Also, placing a filter outflow at an opposing angle as shown in your sketch, is not usually a good idea as it typically results in flow cancellation. It would be better if all outflows were on the same side. Ideally, it would be even better if the outflows were placed evenly spaced along the back wall pointing forward, but that may be impractical.
> Nice tank by the way!
> Cheers,


Hi Ceg.
I really appreciate you join the conversation as you are one of the tops from this group with a lot of experience!
If we talking about co2 related algae 
You saying co2 issue.
Co2 comes on 4h before lights ..Co2 drops from 6.5 to 5.3  using two co2 reactors.
I'm using a ph controller calibrated each month to just make sure the probe measuring properly.
At the moment the tank light and co2 is off for about 36h so it should be completely degassed and ph is 6.57
So I'm maintaining more than 1 ph drop  ..Ph controller is set to ph 5.33 and switching off by ph 5.25 ...
As I said at the top cant go lower. Shrimps acting like crazy all over the tank and wants to jump out.
So the safe level of co2 I would say 5.35 -5.3 what is a 1.3 ph drop.
I as well moved the co2 drop checker to the bottom . The color is the same lime green, slightly yellow.
Any idea how you would position the Lilly pipes as they should create vortex..
I Cant put them on the same side }

At the moment 2x oase bio master 600.. flow describe by seller 1250 l/h  { real flow  probably 700-800 l/h 
Jacob jebao dc pump set to 5000l/h {but because the pump is connected to the  all pond solution filter then co2 reactor than to the chiller  so real flow probably 3500 l/h 
plus I added at the bottom circulation pump 2000 l/h 
I was trying to avoid it and minimize staff at the aquarium but seems to me I have no other choice.


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## Stefan34 (8 Aug 2021)

X3NiTH said:


> With the amount of light that your epiphytes are receiving the addition of supplemental co2 will drive demand for nutrition, you can do whatever you want within reason with the macro nutrients but you absolutely need sufficient micro fertilisation, if this is cut back because there is algae appearing then it’s the exact opposite of what you should be doing, you need to add more because the metals provided are utilised by plants to deal with the tissue damaging oxygen produced by photosynthesis which in your case is full steam ahead and the plants aren’t coping and are obliterating themselves. Iron, Zinc and Manganese are easily oxidised and will become unavailable over time, using these elements with an appropriate chelate such as EDTA allows extended availability, if using unchelated nutrients (DIY) you can expect they will quickly leave the water column and need to be redosed at least every other day if not daily depending on plant mass. They don’t need masses of these elements they just need way more than what comes out the tap and because they are non persistent they need topped up over time.


Hello..Thx for the reply...Very interesting!!
I just don't understand why google answers are full of crap!
That's why I was worried to add more iron etc. because of blown-up algae.
Can you specify the ppm dosage of the weekly regime Of iron and other elements, please?
At the moment iron dosage is set 0.6 - 07 ppm...would that be naff or should I slightly increase it?


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## ceg4048 (8 Aug 2021)

Stefan34 said:


> You saying co2 issue.
> Co2 comes on 4h before lights ..Co2 drops from 6.5 to 5.3 using two co2 reactors.
> I'm using a ph controller calibrated each month to just make sure the probe measuring properly.
> At the moment the tank light and co2 is off for about 36h so it should be completely degassed and ph is 6.57
> ...


Hello Stefan,
                    Thanks for the kind words. Normally, when you have a situation where the animals are stressed by the CO2, yet at the same time the plants suffer CO2 related faults then the problem can be attributed to poor flow/distribution.

Now, you do have a lot of light. That amount of light drives a very high demand for CO2.
Generally, RO water is not good for pH probes or for their accuracy. You may wish to think about adding any carbonate salt in order to raise the KH to about 3-4.

I find it very strange that with two CO2 diffusers it takes 4 hours to drop the pH by 1 unit. This can be due to a low injection rate but can also be due to poor distribution. Is the dropchecker green/yellow at lights on?

It's very difficult to solve distribution problems if you are limited in placing the outflow. There is no such thing as creating a vortex in the tank. That is an illusion, and a terrible one at that, because placing outflows at opposite ends of the tank causes flow cancellation. If you need to add more tubing to be able to mount that one outlet on the same side as the two  biomasters it would be worth trying.

Cheers,


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## robinj (16 Sep 2021)

ceg4048 said:


> Hello Stefan,
> Thanks for the kind words. Normally, when you have a situation where the animals are stressed by the CO2, yet at the same time the plants suffer CO2 related faults then the problem can be attributed to poor flow/distribution.
> 
> Now, you do have a lot of light. That amount of light drives a very high demand for CO2.
> ...


Hi, are you sure he has the pipes wrong? Cause he has outflows in the opposing corners so I would actually expect this to create a vortex (circular flow around tank sides). No? If he had those Biomasters centered, then I would expect that the flow goes down and back (laminar), but when in the corner I think the flow is partially reflected to down and to the side creating whirlwind. No?


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## ceg4048 (17 Sep 2021)

robinj said:


> Hi, are you sure he has the pipes wrong? Cause he has outflows in the opposing corners so I would actually expect this to create a vortex (circular flow around tank sides). No? If he had those Biomasters centered, then I would expect that the flow goes down and back (laminar), but when in the corner I think the flow is partially reflected to down and to the side creating whirlwind. No?


Hi,
   No, this rarely, if ever, happens. The reason is that the water comes out of the pipe as an expanding cone. The cones from each direction then collide and typically cause cancellation. This weakens the flow from each direction. It is always better to have all pump outlets on the same side, pointing in the same direction. That way the effect of the the combined flows is additive and more flow energy moves across the tank. Opposing flow directions are never as good, generally.
And no, there won't be any laminar flow from any of our pumps and in any case, there is no advantage when moving along the glass. Laminar flow is typically due to weak flow, so this doesn't really help.
Having said that, every tanks has different obstacles and different dimensions so it's always worthwhile trying different combinations. So what may not work theoretically may work in practice due to the geometry.

Cheers,


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## erwin123 (17 Sep 2021)

I guess all outlets on the same side is sort of mimicking what a long spray bar would do, and those have proven to be very effective based on user experiences here.

I have 2 canisters but the positioning was done a long time ago, pre-UKAPS, so I have stuck with outlets in opposite corners and have managed to achieve a relatively 'circular flow' (based on twinstar mist), but I also agree that there is nothing 'special' about circular flow, it sort of seemed a logical thing to do (until I read about spraybars in UKAPS which are all on one side).  

What I'm still trying to figure out is the best way to help Lily pipes push more water to the substrate level.... (at least my Twinstar mist is being pushed to the substrate level, but even more circulation at the substrate level would be better)


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## Driftless (17 Sep 2021)

I thought that I would throw out my configuration for my large discus and angelfish tanks for your comments and criticisms.  I always use two similarly sized filters for redundancy, to even out the flow in the tanks, and, well these fish are messy eaters.  Looking at the tank on the side right glass panel I have the two intakes, one is a skimmer.  In the back right corner, I have a Lily pipe outflow that is pushing water along the back glass panel.  In the back left corner, there is the second Lily pipe outflow that is pushing water to the front panel of the tank.  Typically my tanks have Val or large Amazon Swords in the back center of the tanks.  I have spent a lot of time watching the micro-bubbles from the CO2 and Twinstar move around the tanks.


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## ceg4048 (18 Sep 2021)

erwin123 said:


> I guess all outlets on the same side is sort of mimicking what a long spray bar would do, and those have proven to be very effective based on user experiences here.
> 
> I have 2 canisters but the positioning was done a long time ago, pre-UKAPS, so I have stuck with outlets in opposite corners and have managed to achieve a relatively 'circular flow' (based on twinstar mist), but I also agree that there is nothing 'special' about circular flow, it sort of seemed a logical thing to do (until I read about spraybars in UKAPS which are all on one side).
> 
> What I'm still trying to figure out is the best way to help Lily pipes push more water to the substrate level.... (at least my Twinstar mist is being pushed to the substrate level, but even more circulation at the substrate level would be better)


Hi erwin,
               Yeah, getting nice even flow to the substrate really does require the combined effort of all the outputs to push the water across and then down, regardless of what type of output. Robinj above in post #22 mentions a desire for laminar flow, but that is only true when the water makes contact with the leaves. In order to _deliver _the flow to the plant beds you need the oomph of non-laminar flow in order for it to stick to the tank wall and travel down to the substrate. This seems counterintuitive, but the more energy the flow has, the better it sticks to the surface that it is moving along. You want to use the energy to carry the water along so that by the time it gets to the plant beds it has expended most of it's energy in getting there, slows down and becomes more laminar across the leaves.
It's difficult to tell from looking at bubbles whether the flow across a particular region is nice and even and headed in the right direction because the bubbles are under another independent force, i.e., that of their buoyancy, so their movement is a composite of both the flow force and buoyancy forces It's better to visualize using a tiny piece of paper, which has near enough neutral buoyancy to illustrate the flow path for you. You could even add small pumps like Koralia to add energy to the flow. Trying to push water along the long axis of the tank is more difficult but that's what many have to deal with for practical reasons.


Driftless said:


> I thought that I would throw out my configuration for my large discus and angelfish tanks for your comments and criticisms.  I always use two similarly sized filters for redundancy, to even out the flow in the tanks, and, well these fish are messy eaters.  Looking at the tank on the side right glass panel I have the two intakes, one is a skimmer.  In the back right corner, I have a Lily pipe outflow that is pushing water along the back glass panel.  In the back left corner, there is the second Lily pipe outflow that is pushing water to the front panel of the tank.  Typically my tanks have Val or large Amazon Swords in the back center of the tanks.  I have spent a lot of time watching the micro-bubbles from the CO2 and Twinstar move around the tanks.


Hi Driftless,
               As I mentioned, depending on the placement of flow obstacles in the tank we are forced to deviate from the theoretical ideal. On face value and theoretically speaking, the most ideal configuration is actually to have both lily pipes on the same panel and also to have the intakes mounted on that same panel so that all four implements are lined up along that panel, whether it be left or right panel. Again, the shape we are trying to draw is (lets say we mount everything on the right panel) flow across the upper 1/3rd water layer from right to left, then the flow strikes the left panel and is forced down. the flow then strikes the substrate and is forced along the substrate to the right. The debris is on the substrate picked up on the water's travel to the right where the intake pipes are waiting.
But there are always obstacles, like hardscape and plants, correct? Depending on the strength of the filters, they may not have enough muscle to carry the water 2X the tank length + 1X tank height. This is a common weakness, so the combination of issues means you have to move away from our theoretical configuration.
As I said, your solution probably works better than the theoretical for that tank. I only say that the theoretical configuration is the best configuration to start with, then deviate based on actual real life conditions. Again, I would use a few very tiny pieces of paper, just to see how they move. I have a distrust of bubbles in this regard.

Hope this makes sense somewhat! 

Cheers,


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## Driftless (18 Sep 2021)

ceg4048 said:


> Hi erwin,
> Yeah, getting nice even flow to the substrate really does require the combined effort of all the outputs to push the water across and then down, regardless of what type of output. Robinj above in post #22 mentions a desire for laminar flow, but that is only true when the water makes contact with the leaves. In order to _deliver _the flow to the plant beds you need the oomph of non-laminar flow in order for it to stick to the tank wall and travel down to the substrate. This seems counterintuitive, but the more energy the flow has, the better it sticks to the surface that it is moving along. You want to use the energy to carry the water along so that by the time it gets to the plant beds it has expended most of it's energy in getting there, slows down and becomes more laminar across the leaves.
> It's difficult to tell from looking at bubbles whether the flow across a particular region is nice and even and headed in the right direction because the bubbles are under another independent force, i.e., that of their buoyancy, so their movement is a composite of both the flow force and buoyancy forces It's better to visualize using a tiny piece of paper, which has near enough neutral buoyancy to illustrate the flow path for you. You could even add small pumps like Koralia to add energy to the flow. Trying to push water along the long axis of the tank is more difficult but that's what many have to deal with for practical reasons.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your comments.  My flow obstructions are at the rear/back of the tank as compared with George Farmer's discus tank where he has plants/scape in the center of his tank.  I use equal capacity filters which are plenty strong individually so there is not a strong/weak system.  The return flow along the front of the tank is not restricted until it gets to the outflow.  This weekend I will be doing tank and filter maintenance on a Discus and an Angelfish tank and I will try your suggestion using tiny pieces of paper.  I understand and appreciate your suggestions, I may try them on a future tank.  Thank you.


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## Driftless (18 Sep 2021)

Post-Script:  when I didn't have the flow the set up this way I had algae forming in the vegetation at the back of the tank that wasn't receiving good flow.


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