# 60ltr at 4bps???



## •Cai• (26 Dec 2015)

Hi all, I've posted a couple times about co2 and had some really top answers so far so hopefully you can aid me again. 

I've a 60litre tank,medium to full packed with plants such as HC, rotala bonsai, vivipara, Cryptocoryne lutea. Quite slow growing a lot of them. 

I was told to set an initial rate for co2 which I did. 2bps and see how long it took for the co2 to drop say 0.5 of a unit. I did so and set my timer for 2.5 hours before lights on. 

I bought a decent ph pen and took the readings throughout the day. My initial ph was 7.3 before any co2 was added. It only dropped to 6.8/6.7 I think at this rate at its lowest. 

Since then I've tweaked co2 and left it for day to observe unit drops. It's took me about a week to get a 1unit drop but it's a rate of 4bps. As I've read this is a lot of co2 for my tank. 
I have good flow using a fluval 305 canister filter at its highest flow rate as it's connected to a inline heater and inline atomiser so I figured flow rate would have slowed to what's said on manual. I can visibly see co2 reach bottom of tank and work in a circular movement around tank. 

I just want to know wether there's something a miss with what I'm doing with amount of co2 added as I'm worried this much is going to affect my livestock when I add them in couple weeks. 

I took my kh and gh readings to see what the buffering was like within tank water
The kh took 12 drops and gh took a whopping 23 drops of solution to change the colour needed. Could this be affecting my limited drop in ph? 

Can I run at this rate of bubbles or lower it? 

I just feel that if I'm throwing too much co2 at  my tank for no reason then I'd like to know so I can make a change before livestock is added. 


Cheers


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (26 Dec 2015)

Rather than testing your water perameter you would be better off purchasing a Glass drop checker and fill with bromide blue solution. This fuild changes colour with the quantity of co2 (PPM) within the water column - low co2 levels blue colouration, high levels of co2 yellow.The ideal colour is grass green to lime green, if yellow is achieved your fish will suffer and will be floating on top of the water.

Paul


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## •Cai• (26 Dec 2015)

Ye I've got drop checker also. I'm getting a very light yellow/tinge of green to get my 1unit drop in ph however. I'm using 4dkh solution with it.


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## RossMartin (26 Dec 2015)

Remember a drop checker has a delay, this can be an hour or two hours so the colour you are seeing is the colour from some time ago. This is why PH pens are recommended.


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## •Cai• (26 Dec 2015)

I went with @ceg4048 advice with pen so id say it's pretty sound advise without blowing smoke up his backend. It's been giving me an immediate reading. This is how I know my readings throughout day when I've spent day in front of tank. My ph still isn't dropping 1unit after 2.5 hours but I can hardly increase my bubble rate and time on prior to lights would have to be a fair few hours I would have to say. 
   I would budge to flow but my tank is filled with misted co2 throughout. Like I said it's a fluval 305 canister at it's highest flow rate. For 60litres it should be more than enough so it leaves me slightly frustrated at the high rate of co2 I'm adding. I'm just glad it's a small tank.


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## RossMartin (26 Dec 2015)

If you are dosing EI you could drop some of the powder in the tank to see what the flow does. This is what Ceg told me to do and I could immediately see what the flow was doing and where the flow wasn't getting to.

I used the trace powder and I did it on water change day!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## zozo (26 Dec 2015)

It kinda depends on you kH value and current pH to find out what  your theoretical estimate ppm co2 is. You aim for a 1 unit pH drop, but take in account at what pH value you start the day (light) cycle. If you kH is for example kH4 and start with a pH 7.0 than a 1 unit drop isn't what you need in this case and slightly to much if you have fish.

So even with a drop checker and a pH meter you need to use a table like this to estimate your current co2 ppm and know your start value if you aim for 1 unit drop.

Looking at the table and estimate kH12 to a pH 6.8, than you're already pretty high in co2..  Thus a start value of pH7.3 doesn't require a 1 unit drop..


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## Worshiper (26 Dec 2015)

Im no expert on plants so I just see how my plants look and their needs. Still learning though.


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## •Cai• (26 Dec 2015)

Ye by that chart I'm using around 113ppm to my kh and ph I'm down to. I'm slightly confused now to which method to use. The chart or getting down to 1unit drop In ph regardless? @ceg4048 advised on latter if I've understood him right which would cause me to question the use of the chart.. I obviously don't want to be going stupid with co2 and keeping to 7.0units in ph would be so much easier to produce but I don't want plants Struggling and the allowing algae to take a foothold. I'd be devastated as of yet I've had none(touchwood).


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## MedicMan (26 Dec 2015)

Keep in mind there are several components to kh and pH, not all are relevant. 
I would perosnally use a number of methods to see if I've got enough or too much co2:
PH drop, lime green drop checker and fish.
As for flow, cegs recommendation of adding the powder to see flow is spot on. That it use an inline diffuser 

Please excuse grammar and spelling mistakes in this post. I'm posting from my phone/tablet.


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## zozo (27 Dec 2015)

It might be that you somewhere misinterpreted the 1 unit drop approach.. Logicaly if you do not degass your tank with adequat surface agitation or an airstone over night, than your pH probably will not rise 1 unit over night. There still will be a fair amount of co2 left in the water. As what i've undertood from this approach, you could take some tank water in a glass take the pH value and let the glass stand for 24 hours and measure again. If this difference is 1 unit, than you're probably at the correct value of co2. If i'm not mistaken..

Example i'm at kH4 and start the day at pH 6.9 and only drop to pH 6.4-6.5 and i do nothing to degass extra over night if i do it will rise to around pH 7.5..
If i drop to pH 6.2 i see my fish having faster gill movement, so thats my turning point. So imagine i would do a 1 unit drop starting at pH 6.9 down to pH5.9 it'll probably kill my fish. 

If you like to experiment beyond the green drop checker, forget all charts and you realy need to pay very close attention to your fish.. First their gills start to move faster and could swell and turn very red, 2nd stage they go near the surface gasping for air.. 3th they go upside down, 4th is death.


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## Bacms (27 Dec 2015)

I was having similar problems to yours. I had pretty high CO2 and could even hear effervescence from CO2 degassing. My pH was 7.4 before lights and I could only get to maximum drop around 6.6. What I found out was that the 1 unit drops refers from the  CO2 balance with the atmosphere which I want getting unless I removed water from the tank and left it 24h.

I know run an air stone during lights off and get more than 1 unit drop but phony drops to 6.9. So if your drop checker is yellow you probably have more than enough CO2

Enviado do meu LG-V500 através de Tapatalk


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## •Cai• (27 Dec 2015)

I apologise if I'm misinterpreting anything. I'm just following Cegs advise from this Input he gave me on a previous thread:


"CO2 injection is somewhat of an art form and it's the most difficult feature of growing plants.
The idea is to set an arbitrary bubble rate and to determine how long it takes to drop the pH of the tank. If there are no fish then it doesn't matter what the bubble rate is. Instead of depending on the dropchecker, which is notoriously slow to respond, measure the pH of the tank water before the gas is turned on, then continue to take pH readings, say, every 30 minutes throughout the duration of the gas injection period.
Take note of the time at which the pH reaches it's minimum value.

The goal is to have an injection rate that can drop the pH about 1 unit, but to not allow the pH to drop much further. Ideally, this takes about 1-2 hours, but if your flow/distribution is poor, it may take longer. If the pH continues to fall below a difference of 1 pH unit then toxicity can become a serious issue. You will then need to reduce the injection rate and perhaps turn the gas on earlier so that the pH flattens out over the rest of the photoperiod.

Did I mention that flow/distribution is paramount? People poo-poo this idea all the time, citing examples of this famous person or of that famous shop who don't follow this path and yet still have great results. The thing is that there are solid equipment and infrastructure reasons they can get away with it and unless you have those reasons in _your_ equipment you'll need to pay attention to flow/distribution.

You'll need to fiddle with the needle valve over the course of the next few weeks and monitor the pH so that you gain an understanding of how the gas is behaving. For this reason I suggest that you get a good quality pH pen and to keep it calibrated. This make life a lot easier. Using the pH reagent can get tedious.

The day after you start injection, the pre-gas-ON pH may be a little lower than the first day. That's because there may be some residual CO2 dissolved in the water on the second morning. Don't worry about that. Just remember what the first reading was and use that number as your reference.

There are lots of things that will affect the pH readings. Over time, the tank produces organic acids which tend to lower the pH. Plants grow and then USE the CO2, removing it from the water, which tends to raise the pH. This may require a slight adjustment of the needle valve to pump more gas. Higher water temperatures reduce the solubility of gases, so in warm weather this will tend to raise the pH. If your tank is heated you can lower the thermostat to say, 23 degrees instead of 25 degrees. This improves gas solubility and will tend to lower the pH. If you are using tap water, then water change day may disrupt your readings because tap water generally has high CO2, so if you change a large volume of water (which you should be doing) you will tens to see lower pH values before and during injection. Some regulators do not regulate well as the gas pressure in the tank falls. The gas flow rate may suffer which will tend to raise the pH.

So there is a lot of learning to do regarding how your particular tank, with your particular equipment behaves. Observe the plant health and monitor the pH so that you get a clearer picture of cause and effect.

Use the dropchecker as a "quick reference guide" but do not depend solely on it's color changes. The DC should corroborate what you observe the the pH readings.

Cheers,"


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## •Cai• (27 Dec 2015)

So I've been and checked my water after waking up and it's sat at 7.0. That's 0.3 of a unit drop from my arbitrary reading of 7.3. 
How I've interpreted Cegs advise is to not worry about the residual co2 left in water and still look for injection rate that will bring my levels down to close to 6.3 but no lower. If it bottoms out at say 6.4 but never lower and stays stabilised around this number throughout period then that is a good injection rate as there isn't too much fluctuation of co2 or ph. 
What in this am I misinterpreting?


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## tim (27 Dec 2015)

Hi cai, which bubble counter are you using some have a very small aperture so your 4bps could be less than 1bps with a different counter, it's possible your drop checker is giving a false reading due to the small bubbles dissolving in the dc leading you to believe you have higher co2 levels, I would use the ph probe and aim for the 1 point drop, monitor plants no melt algae etc then all good, add livestock before co2 on and make sure you are around to adjust co2 accordingly, drop checker and bubble counter are very rough guides, ph pen is the most accurate measure you have.


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## Chris Jackson (27 Dec 2015)

tim said:


> Hi cai, which bubble counter are you using some have a very small aperture so your 4bps could be less than 1bps with a different counter, it's possible your drop checker is giving a false reading due to the small bubbles dissolving in the dc leading you to believe you have higher co2 levels, I would use the ph probe and aim for the 1 point drop, monitor plants no melt algae etc then all good, add livestock before co2 on and make sure you are around to adjust co2 accordingly, drop checker and bubble counter are very rough guides, ph pen is the most accurate measure you have.



I agree entirely. You've had great advice from Ceg also, relax and watch and learn from the fish and plants, with high circulation and night aeration 4bps isn't excessive.


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## •Cai• (27 Dec 2015)

@tim its the co2art precision metal bubble counter with built in check valve. My whole co2 system is co2 art bought premium complete system. I've just bought an inline reactor off eBay however as I don't like the constant mist effect my atomiser creates. I'm happy to go looking for the 1unit drop. I just thought 4bps was a lot for a 60litre tank. There's probably only 50litres in there at the most. I understand it's an artform and dialling correct co2 in is an artform I have to learn. HOWEVER, why go blind with it when there's many a pro on here that can help me not waste a ridiculous amount of co2 by listening to your answers and advice. 
A clever person if confused should try and ask the right questions to glean the appropriate direction to go in. This is what I'm trying to do so thank you everyone for the time your giving me to work this witchcraft out.


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## zozo (27 Dec 2015)

•Cai• said:


> The day after you start injection, the pre-gas-ON pH may be a little lower than the first day. That's because there may be some residual CO2 dissolved in the water on the second morning. *Don't worry about that. Just remember what the first reading was and use that number as your reference*.



Ceg is spot on with his explaination.  But i guess the above quote is probably your misinterpretation..  I think he means remember the very first reading you made to start with and estimate where you end point is from that. It's not meant as the first reading of every other day to start with. Or maybe i'm misinterpreting your situation and question.. Now i'm a bit confused as well.

There seems to be no way for us to tell the excact ppm of co2 in our tank, of what i understand this even is very difficult with very expensive lab equipment. So that leaves us only with what the pH meter, the co2 chart, your plants and fish tell you.. If your tap water kH is 12 and your start value pH is 7.3 from the tap. Regarding the chart you already must have a pretty fair amount of co2 in the tapwater of almost 19 ppm..  If i compare it to my tap water readings i have a 3 ppm co2 in my tap water.

That's why many people take a glass of water, from the tank or tap and leave it for 12 to 24 hours and measure it again. And use that value as start value for the 1 pH drop.
That's the first reading you have to take with you for al next days after that. ill you do the same check again.



•Cai• said:


> "CO2 injection is somewhat of an art form and it's the most difficult feature of growing plants.


This is what makes it so difficult, whatever everybody is telling you, what you see happening in your own tank is what you realy get. And that can be somewhat contradictive of what is told. There are no 2 tanks to find which are excactly the same. For example i'm such a Poo poo (just kidding) experimenting all the time and running my tank with very low flow (less then half of the recomended) the past few months and still have good results. And still are waiting for the problems it might bring.  But i think for this tank it works. The only thing you can do is start with all average recomendations in check and work your own way up and down the road with what you experience in your tank. This can take months to find the right way to make everything looking equaly happy..


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## foxfish (27 Dec 2015)

There are plenty of opinions about getting the best from your set up & plenty of people who love to confuse the matter.
Cegs advice is sound in my opinion & I would stick close to his recommendations.
This vid seems to be doing the rounds on all the planted forums at the moment, but have a quick look at 7.45 on the vid...


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## •Cai• (27 Dec 2015)

I have at the minute buckets of water waiting to be put in tank and it's been sat there since yesterday afternoon. My tap water straight from tap is 7.3 and testing tat bucket water is 7.4. Hardly a big leap in change. 

That's what I went with. 7.3. Then, trying to drop a unit to 6.3 regardless of it showing for instance today, 7.0. I'm still using my arbitrary 7.3 reading. 
I'm not changing my ph everyday with what I have on that specific day. 

I'm happy that my plants are growing and as of yet(touchwood) I'm yet to see any algae. I'm sure it's lurking, ready to pounce.


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## tim (27 Dec 2015)

Cai, next time you clean your diffuser stick the co2 tube in a glass of water and turn it on for a few seconds, I think you'll be surprised how slowly it comes out compared to the bubble counter, I'd say you are definitely on the right path mate question everything, follow the advice you think is sound but ultimately watch your plants and livestock for the answers, good luck with your setup


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## tim (27 Dec 2015)

Oh and your substrate will drop your ph to around 6.5 eventually anyway.


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## •Cai• (27 Dec 2015)

@foxfish thanks for vid. Ye I've watched that a couple times now. What I don't get is by that video if I follow his chart, 7.3 with a kh of 12 it shows I have 19ppm already. 
Then if I'm to take Cegs advise to drop a full unit to 6.3 with a kh of 12 I'm injecting 163 ppm or something. I feel they conflict with each other. 
I'd rather follow Cegs advice. It just seems there's so many theories and ideas of what's needed regardless of the likes of ceg giving advice such as I've received. It clouds and confuses matters to the point a beginner like me becomes mislead. 
I understand there needs to be a certain flexibility when it comes to my bubble counter due to each one being slightly different  in build.  
Drop checkers are slow, and as has been stated above the size of the co2 mist given off by different atomisers, diffusers and reactors etc give a misguided colour to what's actually in tank. 
Guide points only I know. 
everybody just seems to have their own theory on it that it bothers and worries me that it's left that way. Surely if this niche of planted aquariums is to grow in popularity we need to have some more structured standards to begin from.


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## zozo (27 Dec 2015)

I also started with a small in tank diffuser and it was realy hard to get a steady co2 supply and saw more bubbles leave the water than beeing disolved. Than i followed a advice (also red an a reply from Ceg long time ago) to place the diffuser under the filter inlet, so all bubbles are sucked into the filter. The filtermedia will disolve it much better and there will be co2 saturated water from the outlet. This worked pefect so far, co2 suply was more steady, droped faster and stayed more stable. Only thing was, once in a while the canister traped a big bubble of co2 and burps a bit. 

Later on i went for an inline diffuser in the filter outlet hose, to prevent the co2 from beeing traped in the canister. And actualy my experience is this  works even better. I'll stay with an inline diffuser.


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## zozo (27 Dec 2015)

•Cai• said:


> everybody just seems to have their own theory on it that it bothers and worries me that it's left that way.



More to say, everybody has his own experience after a while, probaly a bit contradictive of what other experience. Better don't worrie about that, after a while you'll be as experienced and find your own way... 

Best practise always is to go down in small steps and wait and see what it does for you. I'm just quoting a chart that says your water contains 19ppm co2 from the tap. Only would be correct if your kH check is accurate, drop tests are notorious for beeing inaccurate. So there you go, the first theory is born and you'll encounter some more along the way. It all doesn't matter so much, for example just start at the top with going down to say pH6,9 and stay there for a few weeks and see what it does. If you think you can do better go down again 0.1/0.2 units and wait and see. That's a much safer way than force everything down to 6.3, maybe wasting a lot of co2 and or endangering your lifestock if you have and going up again.. Take your time and patience you'll get there and find the sweetspot without much confusement. You're plants wont die from it going down easily in little steps.


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## foxfish (27 Dec 2015)

•Cai• said:


> everybody just seems to have their own theory on it that it bothers and worries me that it's left that way. Surely if this niche of planted aquariums is to grow in popularity we need to have some more structured standards to begin from.


Yep drives me mad! I used to post my methods based on long term experience but, in recent years, I find it difficult to deal with all the new school of experts so I generally keep quiet & just answer the basic questions.


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## Chris Jackson (27 Dec 2015)

foxfish said:


> Yep drives me mad! I used to post my methods based on long term experience but, in recent years, I find it difficult to deal with all the new school of experts so I generally keep quiet & just answer the basic questions.



Yes my long term experience indicates that it does not have to be so difficult and it need not be so precise. As a beginner I suggest you follow one train of advice from someone with proven success because for every expert there is an equal and opposite expert...


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## alto (27 Dec 2015)

I won't add much to this discussion as you've already stated which way you wish to proceed ... but I must protest that

CO2 dissolution/concentration in water is NOT art, it is SCIENCE  

    

In the absence of livestock, run CO2 at any level that suits (again there are plant preferences but that would be more of that interfering - & decidedly optional - science & unlike livestock the result is unlikely to be devastatingly permanent); just remember to turn down the CO2 when you introduce shrimp/fish & only gradually increase CO2 back to previous levels, paying close attention to shrimp/fish behavior.

Fortunately shrimp/fish are quite sturdy creatures & they will survive in many environs that are far from "perfect", so find the balance that works for you.


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## •Cai• (27 Dec 2015)

@alto. Haha sorry for using the taboo terminology. I believe it's in a more metaphorical tone. In the way that getting it right is like somebody doing fine art. It takes time, experience and hard work seeing what works. I'm not disputing science reigns all my friend!


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## alto (27 Dec 2015)

my post may've come off as rather more serious in tone than I meant 


But do look at Tropica's display/inspiration tanks - they run with an array of filter rates & CO2 levels


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## •Cai• (27 Dec 2015)

Thanks @alto i will have a gander. My main concern is the livestock for sure. I know I can have injection high at moment but I just want to know my livestock are happy and safe. I intend to lower it like you've reccommended to allow them to adapt. Il be drip acclimating them also.
Will be adding ottos, Amanos, red cherry shrimp and a single shoal of Galaxy rasbora as my main fish.
id never seen anyone comment on such high injection rates for such a small sized tank. This was my main concern to begin with.


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## alto (27 Dec 2015)

Is this injection rate to an in-tank diffuser (such as the ADA style) or an "atomizer/reactor etc?


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## •Cai• (27 Dec 2015)

I have an inline atomiser by co2 art but I've bought a ISTA inline reactor as I don't like the mist all over my tank during injection period. Especially at 4bps at the moment.


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## alto (27 Dec 2015)

Your increased bubble rate is not unusual then, sometimes you'll see photos of uncountable bubble rates needed for these sorts of reactors.


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## •Cai• (27 Dec 2015)

I will add @alto I havent connected my reactor up yet so it's still an inline atomiser linked up.


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## zozo (27 Dec 2015)

alto said:


> I won't add much to this discussion as you've already stated which way you wish to proceed ... but I must protest that
> 
> CO2 dissolution/concentration in water is NOT art, it is SCIENCE



Science is the art of knowing..  Or at least thinking/believing you know.. Less then a century ago Mercury still was used as a medicine in the name of science.. Today it would be a crime to make you swallow it..


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## Danny (20 Jan 2018)

Lots of great info in this thread, very good to read.


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## ceg4048 (20 Jan 2018)

•Cai• said:


> Hi all, I've posted a couple times about co2 and had some really top answers so far so hopefully you can aid me again.
> 
> I've a 60litre tank,medium to full packed with plants such as HC, rotala bonsai, vivipara, Cryptocoryne lutea. Quite slow growing a lot of them.
> 
> ...


Hello,
           If you review many of the threads regarding this issue you will normally see that the advice is that it may not be necessary to drop the pH a full unit when the water's alkalinity is measure to be 12 dkH. Hobbyists who don't have the whole picture may sometimes conclude that the information provided is conflicting, and that's usually because they are attempting to fill in the dots.

So for example, you mention that your KH test kit required 12 drops to change color. Since the kits sometimes differ, can you verify that based on that kit instructions the dKH is indicating 12, or 11? So can you see that merely by not stating exactly what your reading is, that it would be possible to misinterpret what the values actually are and to provide advice that may someday appear to someone else as being contradictory?

Also note that the one can use the pH/KH/CO2 chart to determine the target delta pH, but this loses some of it's relevance if the dKH number (I'll assume 12 in this case) is not 100% due to Calcium Carbonate dissolved in the water. The test kit measures alkalinity. It is incapable of measuring KH.

So if we go to the chart and find where the pH 7.3 column intersects the KH 12 row then it would imply that the water's starting CO2 content is around 18ppm which is unlikely.
Still, we are looking for a "Delta", not an absolute number, so we can simply follow the row to the left and stop at the 45.3ppm red box. Now, 45ppm minus 18ppm is 27ppm, which is a pretty good target. That box intercepts the 6.9pH column, right? So for your 12dKH water a pH drop of 0.4-0.5 can be the target instead of a traditional 1 unit drop. Again, there is some ambiguity because we do not know how much of the dKH value is due to ions that are not CO3 or HCO3.

Will this all seem confusing to some people? Well yes, no doubt. Years from now someone will accuse me of conflicting them terribly? I'll regretfully have to plead guilty. 

But the conflict doesn't end there. Suppose the water is actually 12 dKH due to 100% CO3 dissolved in it. Lets say you can successfully reduce your bubble rate, to get a 0.4-0.5 pH drop and a 27ppm CO2. Are all your troubles over? Maybe not.

It may be that you are of Klingon ancestry and that your tank is lit by several megawatts of Atomic powered LED. If so, 27ppm may not be enough. 
Suppose your flow rate and distribution were not as good as you thought? 27ppm may not be enough. 
There are so many ways to having problems, it's staggering.

The 1 pH unit drop is just a guideline which assumes a much lower dKH and which takes into account the possibility that the starting CO2 concentration level is optimistic in the chart.
Acids in the water corrupt the pH reading and alkaline substances in the water corrupt the dKH reading. That's why we don't use tank water in the DC, remember?
You have to outwit the pH/KH/CO2 chart because it always assume your water only has Carbonate (CO3) dissolved in the water and that there are no other acids except for the Carbonic acid that is reacting with the water and with the Carbonate.
We cannot cover every possible scenario so we just shoot for a nice round number that works _most _of the time.
The DC is a good indicator visually so you can try to throttle back on the injection rate so that the yellow goes away, and that should give you the confidence that you will be able to add fish - but it will not necessarily guarantee that the plants will be happy.

Hope this helps...somewhat....

Cheers,


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