# The End of The Beginning



## AverageWhiteBloke (2 Mar 2016)

As the title suggests I'm right at the very start of my first journal, in fact, its so early that I don't even have a plan yet other than some rough ideas. I'll try and put some flesh on the bones of the situation.  Been keeping planted tanks for about 25 years with varying levels of success. Read any gods amount of other poeples jounals and admired many videos and photographs of other peoples works of art and thought one day. So, that days here 

I was intending to do this properly and get all my stuff together with a plan but unfortunately/fortunately my hand has been forced a bit and I need to get a wiggle on so what better place to start than right at the beginning, the shopping phase. Some furniture has been ordered where my old tank sits so I need to strip it down. Its been there for probably 12/13 years so I've had my moneys worth and it still works and looks fine. To be fair up to this point its took a back seat to a growing family and the costs associated so everything was done on a budget but now its time for a bit of me time 

The intention is to get a new tank,cabinet,lighting and substrate but to use the filter,co2 system,hardscape and plants from the old tank. I will however be getting some more varieties of plants and hardscape. The tank still has some fish in so If I can I'm going to run the two systems parallel until things are settled then shut the old one down.

So, let's go shopping  Which isn't as easy as I thought. I've always been a fan of the TMC 600 in white and thought I"d get one one day. But that's where the first problem began, they are only available in 600x450x300 in clear silicone.  I tried scaling that up using some card today and I just can't get my head round the 300mm height. Firstly I'm not much of an Aquascaper. When I read posts on layout, focus,tension etc Ill have to be honest, I don't know what anyone's talking about. I either like what I see (for some reason) or I don't. I can see the practical benefits of a lower tank but it just doesn't do it for me, plus, me not being a scaper I prefer to jungle up a bit. The Dutch stuff has me Salivating. I do intend to get some hardscape feature going to draw the eye but mainly going for dense planting. I'm also considering some tall plants so I fear the lack of height won't show them off to their fullest.

That being said there does seem to be retailers with the 600x450x450 in clear silicone but trying to get one is like herding cats. they either don't deliver or are out of stock. Another big points is my glassware. I have two sets of lilly pipes, one set soaking in bleach while the other is in the tank. Both are far too big for a 300mm tank unless I have the intake elevated really high on the sucker.

That leaves me with either black silicone or ada 90 H. With this being a treat to my self I wouldn't like to get black silicone and after a while wish I'd held out for a clear as they do exist....somewhere.  I am quite prepared to pay the extra for an ADA at this point but can't even seem to find a supplier for them! Even greem machine which is where I used to browse the ADA stuff in hope one day doesn't appear to have any! I don't know, perhaps the black silicone will frame the picture if you like, certainly seems like easiest option right now.

First things first then, first hurdle, anyone know where I could source the ADA or clear silicone 600x450x450 or, any suggestions for a set up I may have over looked. Has to be in white gloss finish though. You know how it is when you have to balance practicality with her indoors deco to keep the deal sweet 

I have realised the typo in the title but can't be bothered to boot the laptop to change it 


Tapatalk On Blackberry PlayBook


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## alto (2 Mar 2016)

ADA does a 60 x 45 x 45 as well - look for the 60H (8mm)
75P is also a nice tank (75 x 45 x 45) but then lighting is more limited as this is not as standard a length (lots of fixtures will "fit" but many will have the same actual lights as a fixture sold for a 60cm tank)

90P is 90 x 45 x 45 (back to standard lighting)
90H is 90 x 45 x 60 and easily runs double the price of the 90P, it's also an unlikely tank height for aquascaping so not many shops will be inclined to stock this tank dimension, note that ADA has also supposedly discontinued some tank sizes recently.

In the past TMC made the TMC 600 in the 45cm height & black/white silicone upon special order - you might check Wisey's  journal Aurora Aquatica as I believe he mentions tank sourcing (somewhere ) 


> TMC Signature 60x45x45 Optiwhite
> Charcoal grey cabinet


I quite like the black silicone as white needs more attention re algae & take care with any colored aquarium meds (methylene blue will stain as will some of the analine dyes)  
(black also has higher tensile strength but that concern is seldom mentioned anymore ...)

I agree that 30cm height is too shallow for me, I think that 60 x 45 dimension looks more balanced with at least 36cm height (I'd chose 45)
I also feel that fish are more comfortable in deeper tanks


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## AverageWhiteBloke (2 Mar 2016)

Thanks, yes I meant the 60H. Still couldn't seem to find a UK stockist for ADA stuff. I'll check out the topic you linked although I may have read it already. I seem to have read every topic relating to TMC signature. Meth blue etc isn't too much of a worry to me as I will be introducing some RCS in early on from a little breeding setup I have. Copper based meds and shrimp don't mix  However I hear what you're saying on the black silicone, I'm sort of swaying on the subject. Was looking at my existing tank before trying to imagine what it would look like with black silicone and did indeed notice the amount of algae that does eventually get in behind. Whether that situation would be avoided with black I don't know.

Another bonus is with black if I decided on lighting I could push the button right now at charterhouse and get the majority of my equipment on the road.

Hmm, decisions decisions. I think I'm just used to seeing so many pictures of great scapes with clear silicone that black looks odd somehow.

Tapatalk On Blackberry PlayBook


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## alto (3 Mar 2016)

ADA still lists Aquatic Design Centre as a distributor for the UK so you might contact them - if nothing else seems they could sort you with a tank 

TGM was having a sale on all things ADA a few months ago - perhaps call & speak with the manager/owner

Note that many meds that are considered "shrimp safe" - as much as any are ... issue is that a recently molted shrimp is very sensitive until new shell hardens - contain dyes
 Eg I use formalin to treat external parasites but many prefer malachite green etc based meds


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## AverageWhiteBloke (3 Mar 2016)

Cheers, just checked TGM and the 60H is showing up so that now becomes an option for the tank. Not sure what was going on yesterday, maybe the site was under maintenance or something. No tanks were showing, pity the glass cover is out of stock but maybe they could get one in and send both together. Also waiting on a place called Distant Waters to ring me back, they show both the cabinet and tank in clear but on their site there's no option in the dropdown for the cabinet in 600mm and both are on back order. Depending on how long it takes to get both in and delivered depends on the next move.

Preferably I'd like to get both from the same supplier to keep delivery costs down but if I can't it is what it is.


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## Wisey (3 Mar 2016)

As you will see from my journals (as Alto kindly mentions), I have the TMC Signature 60x45x45. In hindsight I would have bought the 30 high, I always struggled to use the available height in my first scape, but if you look at my "Round Two" journal started at the weekend I have filled in some of the height with hardscape and stems to grow in later.

I don't mind the black silicone, I would have bought clear if it was available in the 45 high tank, but I checked at TMC and they did not list clear as being an option on the 45, black only. I still think it looks like a really nice aquarium, the quality is excellent and the price is right.

When sourcing my aquarium I did find a few places that mentioned the clear in the 45, but I think, and this is just an assumption, that it was errors in their product listings as when you speak to these places and they check its actually black that they had available.


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## Paulo Soares (3 Mar 2016)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> I am quite prepared to pay the extra for an ADA at this point but can't even seem to find a supplier for them!



Why don´t you order a tank at the size and glass specification you want in a glass shop/factory?

Here in Portugal we don´t buy ADA tanks... my goodness... with that amount of money i buy 3 or 4 tanks made by order. My tank was made with transparent silicone and the most clear glass. With 100*40*40 it costs me 120 euros! .


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## AverageWhiteBloke (3 Mar 2016)

Wisey said:


> As you will see from my journals (as Alto kindly mentions), I have the TMC Signature 60x45x45. In hindsight I would have bought the 30 high, I always struggled to use the available height in my first scape, but if you look at my "Round Two" journal started at the weekend I have filled in some of the height with hardscape and stems to grow in later.
> 
> I don't mind the black silicone, I would have bought clear if it was available in the 45 high tank, but I checked at TMC and they did not list clear as being an option on the 45, black only. I still think it looks like a really nice aquarium, the quality is excellent and the price is right.
> 
> When sourcing my aquarium I did find a few places that mentioned the clear in the 45, but I think, and this is just an assumption, that it was errors in their product listings as when you speak to these places and they check its actually black that they had available.



Yes subscribed to "round two" hopefully if you're learning from your mistakes from round one I can learn from your mistakes from round two as well  I believe you're right regarding the clear silicone. Companies are listing the clear but when you actually ring up they're black. I wonder why TMC did this, strength perhaps? They must realise that I would guess the majority of aquascapers prefer clear. People will have had so many requests for it. Coming back to the height, again the 300mm would require me either getting new shorted pipes or having them sitting high up on the tank side (inlet anyway) I also have some Balansae that I want to incorporate and a couple of swords from my existing so filling the height shouldn't be an issue. Also going covered glass top. That being said and now I know TGM is back in the game it would appear that tank and cabinet can be sorted, either the ADA 60H or Black silicone, the more I think about the black silicone and see tanks with it on the less of an issue it becomes to me.



Paulo Soares said:


> Why don´t you order a tank at the size and glass specification you want in a glass shop/factory?
> 
> Here in Portugal we don´t buy ADA tanks... my goodness... with that amount of money i buy 3 or 4 tanks made by order. My tank was made with transparent silicone and the most clear glass. With 100*40*40 it costs me 120 euros! .



I don’t, know of any aquarium builders and to be honest unless the delivery charges are OTT on the ADA there's approx £30 between it and the TMC Black. Getting them both from the same supplier would be the ideal for delivery costs but TGM have 15% off at the minute and the tanks come with clips for the glass cover which I would have to buy. Once I get some final prices I can see if it's worth putting a price on satisfaction  Wanted to do this for years so I would hate to get something and wish I hadn't over say £30/40 

So now I'm at lighting, been searching a few threads in here. Aiming for something low profile and silver, the tank will be in a corner of the living room between two couches so I'm avoiding looking round from a seated position and having light shining down in my eyes so ceiling mounting is out the question. Looking for something sat on the rim and stylish (see previous comment on other half)

So far in the running I've been looking at Arcadia stretch although reading experiences from other users I would probably need two. A growbeam tile (not sure how to mount. Arcadia Blade (anyone have any experience?) and because I have little or no experience in LED I could go down the route of playing it safe with APS T5

As always any advice or other suggestions much appreciated.


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## Wisey (3 Mar 2016)

I bought the ADA clips for a tenner and then had a plexiglass cover cut for my TMC Sig, works well to reduce evaporation and stop jumpers (I lost 5 of 6 Odessa barbs in the space of a week).


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## AverageWhiteBloke (3 Mar 2016)

Yeah, had a similar experience with some hatchet fish. Back in the day I had an open top aquarium with a 125watt mercury vapour hanging above. caused issues with condensation on windows, bleaching wall paper and fish losses. Not for me, plus my missus wasn't too happy. Looks good but but just not practical, you also have the issue of things like air fresheners and furniture polish etc getting into the water column. One of the reasons I'm after a light that sits as low as possible rather than suspended, if I suspend the light or hang above on brackets I can see me getting a bad time, my old system when the light was off you could still see the pattern on the wall


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## alto (3 Mar 2016)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> So now I'm at lighting, been searching a few threads in here. Aiming for something low profile and silver,


Check with TMC on availability of the Horizon lighting (initially the FW version was delayed) - it received good response at Interzoo etc
For a 60cm or 90 cm tank, you use multiples of the 30cm x 45cm panel (or 45 x 45 cm panel) 

Possible cons on this sort of lighting
 - intensity control/programming - email TMC in regards to whether their AquaRay controller runs this system as well
 - filter inlets etc
 - lighting while working in the tank   

From their website, sounds as if TMC is still manufacturing aquariums to request, so if you prefer the clear silicone ...


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## AverageWhiteBloke (3 Mar 2016)

Thanks for the heads up. Managed to see one at complete aquatics but it was the marine version. TMC site was a bit vague. Also remembered the UP Pro Led light U series P 
quite an aesthetically pleasing light but I know nothing about how adequate the lighting will be.  The lighting is by far the hardest bit 

So far I'm leaning towards the UP PRO or the Blade. The stretch doesn’t seem to be that powerful going by accounts in the forum. Growbeam tile is still a possibility with white brackets but is quite high up from the tank and looks a bit cumbersome. Like you say with TMC Horizon it may prove awkward working on the tank unless one 450x450 would do.


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## tim (3 Mar 2016)

are you heading to the ukaps aquascaping experience Saturday AWB, I was looking at an Ada 60h to downsize my 90cm tank but I'm interested to see the tanks and cabinets supplied for the hardscape competition first, http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/welcome-to-ukaps-crystal-aqua.39492/ new sponsor is supplying the tanks and cabinets I believe, maybe worth a look.


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## gareth777 (3 Mar 2016)

I will have a journal starting very shortly I have a ada 60 (h) sat on a tmc signature cabinet and im using kessil tuna sun a160 for lighting and it all sits very well together


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## alto (4 Mar 2016)

tim said:


> I'm interested to see the tanks and cabinets supplied for the hardscape competition first, http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/welcome-to-ukaps-crystal-aqua.39492/ new sponsor is supplying the tanks and cabinets I believe, maybe worth a look.


please take photos if possible 
they sound like excellent tanks


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## tim (4 Mar 2016)

alto said:


> please take photos if possible
> they sound like excellent tanks


I will certainly try.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (4 Mar 2016)

tim said:


> are you heading to the ukaps aquascaping experience Saturday AWB, I was looking at an Ada 60h to downsize my 90cm tank but I'm interested to see the tanks and cabinets supplied for the hardscape competition first, http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/welcome-to-ukaps-crystal-aqua.39492/ new sponsor is supplying the tanks and cabinets I believe, maybe worth a look.



Would love to but unfortunately I have some decorating and a floor to put in before the move round which I'll have to do at weekends. looking forward to seeing what's on offer though. I was looking at placing orders this weekend but I may hold of and see what's happening at this event.



gareth777 said:


> I will have a journal starting very shortly I have a ada 60 (h) sat on a tmc signature cabinet and im using kessil tuna sun a160 for lighting and it all sits very well together



Looking forward to that.

Regards lighting, I think I'm going for the UP Pro LED U Series P. Thus far I haven't seen any complaints about it in either this forum and there's a decent review of the fitting here
It's currently ticking all the boxes for price, can be dimmed with cheap ebay controller, aesthetically pleasing and sits low on the tank. Reading reviews it seems to sit in the medium lighting bracket so more wiggle room for me regarding dosing etc.

The horizon tile was another tempting deal, the fact that it sits flush to the tank was perfect but like was mentioned would need took off the tank  to work on it which isn't that much of a worry because |I generally do that in daylight but my worry is that I would have to get a single 450x450 tile to allow for pipework and with the close proximity to the surface maybe would result in too concentrated of a beam where as the UP extends to the full sides of the tank.

The arcadia blade again, a contender but I can't find much info on it. The Arcadia rep was in here but left little information and no one seems to have on. Also sits a bit higher on the tank.

Sooo unless someone pops up and says don't get the UP, so far I'm thinking...

TMC Signature white 
ADA 60H (depending if anyone gets back to me regarding TMC 600x450x450 clear silicone)
UP Pro LED U Series P

My credit card is getting warm 

So now substrate, any suggestions? Bearing in mind that I may need to swap some fish over pretty quick. Looking to avoid using ones that leach high amounts of Ammonia at the beginning so which to avoid is the first question. If I pull this off I intend to get the new tank set up pretty quickly using the filter and some old water from my existing tank to speed up the process. My existing tank is an Aqua One AR850 which came with a built in trickle filter the converted to a canister because of the trickle gassing off co2. I think I could split the media out the canister and run that in the trickle with Liquid Carbon while I get the other tank going then try and get the fish over within a week or so and put all the mature media back in the canister at shutdown so the quicker the cycling process the better.


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## alto (5 Mar 2016)

Tropica soil - this can stand alone or combine with Tropica substrate (I use this in addition as tap water is extremely soft) or ADA Power Sand etc
For this size of tank you could do powder or "regular" or a mixture

Tropica has an App you can follow  

I like to use Seachem's Ammonia Alert for new tank + fish (I'm lazy)

Unless your present tank has a very high bioload, you can generally remove 25% of media to establish new tank, just monitor fish in existing tank, perhaps increase water change frequency for a few days ... to stimulate bacterial growth in the new tank, just feed as if fish were present.
Not having fish present in newly planted tank allows you to run higher CO2 levels & gives plants a chance to establish roots etc without fish disturbing substrate


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## AverageWhiteBloke (5 Mar 2016)

Thanks, that was one of my main concerns with the Tropica stuff, lowering the hardness and PH. My tapwater is extremely soft, doesn't even measure on standard test kits and about 15ppm on the tds meter so I was avoiding products that did that. How come you think it might be beneficial? I actually put some coral gravel discretely in the back of my tank, just a teaspoon full now and again just to counter the softness and dose 2 tsp of mag sulf on WC day. This routine keeps my TDS about 180-200 with a 50% weekly and a KH of around 3/4dgh, obviously the salts in the EI make up a fair proportion of the TDS.

That Ammonia thing looks ideal however I notice it says not to be used in an acidic tank. If I have extremely low hardness, substrate bringing to down and co2 surely this will pretty much result in a low PH most of the time. I could be wrong but my understanding was that Ammonia was only toxic in neutral or higher, below that it converts to something else no?

Previously I've used Tesco cat litter in all my setups but not even taking a chance with it on this one. Got to start at the foundations I guess. Not sure how long between stripping the old tank which is low stocked. Probably got about 5 Panda corys. 2x SAE (one false) and a couple of random Neons. I haven't replaced any losses for years since I knew this day was coming just didn't realise it was coming this soon!

Looking at the calculator on UKAPS I'm going to need about 14 ltrs so I guess 2x9ltr bags will be more than enough.


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## castle (5 Mar 2016)

relatively depressing journal title though


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## AverageWhiteBloke (5 Mar 2016)

HAHA, yeah never thought about it that way but now you mention it. I was eager to get this show on the road so I never thought about it too much. Maybe if I explain the logic behind it though it might make a bit more sense.

I've messed with planted tanks for over 20 years back in the mercury vapour pendant days and wrong information. Back in the day my first attempt I went all in with Dennerle stuff who were the world leaders at the time arguably. They were the go to people if you wanted a decent planted tank before I'd even heard of Amano. Since then my life took over and I've messed with attempts on the cheap, everything 2nd hand or off Ebay to varying levels of success. Then I found UKAPS and replanted a non planted Aqua One 850 and spent years looking at other peoples amazing set ups and doing a bit of dreaming...One day.

Now I've finally got the chance, I've made all the mistakes possible and wished I'd done things different from the start but not had the time or money to do anything about it so I've just had an extremely mediocre planted tank sitting in my dining room for about 12 years. Hence the beginning of the end, I'm ending that tank and beginning a new one that I've always wanted. Sort of and ending with experimenting with plants although I doubt that ever ends. I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination by a long way but I seem to have mastered the fundamentals of growing plants (The easier species anyway) so now I'm hoping to combine what I've learned so far with some decent equipment and rather than just grow plants to grow them in a manner correctly laid out to create an eye catching display that I can be proud of instead of drooling over other peoples. 

Open for suggestions on a better title though.


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## alto (5 Mar 2016)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Thanks, that was one of my main concerns with the Tropica stuff, lowering the hardness and PH. My tapwater is extremely soft, doesn't even measure on standard test kits and about 15ppm on the tds meter so I was avoiding products that did that. How come you think it might be beneficial? I actually put some coral gravel discretely in the back of my tank, just a teaspoon full now and again just to counter the softness and dose 2 tsp of mag sulf on WC day. This routine keeps my TDS about 180-200 with a 50% weekly and a KH of around 3/4dgh, obviously the salts in the EI make up a fair proportion of the TDS.
> 
> That Ammonia thing looks ideal however I notice it says not to be used in an acidic tank. If I have extremely low hardness, substrate bringing to down and co2 surely this will pretty much result in a low PH most of the time. I could be wrong but my understanding was that Ammonia was only toxic in neutral or higher, below that it converts to something else no?



Aquarium soils are said to "lower hardness & pH" as a consequence of their ability to bind ions in solution ... any substrate that is not completely inert has some CEC (cation exchange capacity) - generally the more clay base, the more CEC (loads of article on this on the net ... maybe Darrel dw1305 has a good link ) ... since Calcium & Magnesium are some of the bound cations, "hardness" may lower ... the other part is the "exchange" - generally H+ ions are the traded out/up ions - so between these processes, you may observe hardness & pH effects with soils (relative to inert substrates)

BUT when you begin with very soft water, there isn't much in the water column to be adsorbed to the soil - instead the process tends the other direction, & soils may release various cations into the water column ... to make it all more complicated, planted tanks generally have various fertilizers added to the water column, also CO2

I tend to use products such as Tropica GS as this creates a nutrient rich "reservoir" layer below the substrate, this may be available to plants through root interaction, also there will be some slow leaching into the water column. I've recently tried adding some fine aragonite sand to this layer but can't really say if it has much effect (intuitively it seems a nice gesture ) - what is obvious is if your aragonite is off white & you uproot plants  fortunately it also sinks away rather quickly (Carib Sea also offers a "Hawaiian black" but I've not seen it locally)  

Re the Ammonia Alert, you might email Seachem on technical explanation (my tanks run ~pH 6 & it seems to detect ammonia just fine ... an ADA tank that I never added fish to as the ammonia release just never stopped; I've also observed slight green tints with new tank startups that resolve with water changes) - you're correct that ammonia is less (immediately) toxic at acidic pH but I still prefer tanks to be free of ammonia when fish & shrimp are present.  



From another thread - oddly I "saw" this link in this thread 


Manuel Arias said:


> Hi ajm83,
> 
> I think that the comment of ceg4048 is directed to he fact that Ca and Mg exchanges each other in soils, understanding from your original post that you were concerned about the availability of Mg in soil because of this exchange. He is right in that context, and in aquatic plants the proportion Mg/Ca in soil is not critical, as Mg is available anyway in the water column.
> 
> ...


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## alto (5 Mar 2016)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Probably got about 5 Panda corys. 2x SAE (one false) and a couple of random Neons. I haven't replaced any losses for years since I knew this day was coming just didn't realise it was coming this soon!
> 
> Looking at the calculator on UKAPS I'm going to need about 14 ltrs so I guess 2x9ltr bags will be more than enough.



That's a low bioload which means that your filter N-cycle bacteria levels will also be fairly low but all the "starting components" should be there so once you begin "feeding", it should all go along fairly smoothly.
(Darrel has some excellent links on current aquarium N-cycle bacteria identities/activity) 

Volume of substrate needed depends on how you scape - if you calculate your tank surface area, eg, 60cm x 45cm = 2700 x height of substrate, eg, 10cm = 27 000 ie 27 litres if you wanted an even 10cm height of substrate.
In general a sloped substrate is more esthetically pleasing as it adds perspective so if this ranges from a few cm at front to 10 - 20 cm at back, you may easily use slightly more than 2 bags - I'd suggest buying a third bag rather than running short (of course I always have more than 1 tank so never worry about not using any leftover materials  )
You may also want to use just the Powder if you like to adjust  scapes as much as I do


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## AverageWhiteBloke (7 Mar 2016)

Thanks for all the info Alto, substrates are something I've never really got into. Always used cat litter with Osmocote under previously and got away with it. Quite an expensive do buying made for purpose stuff


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## alto (7 Mar 2016)

Buy a cat & cat litter seems a lot more expensive


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## AverageWhiteBloke (7 Mar 2016)

I could imagine. I have a rabbit and that can put some food away. I read a lot of people had problems with cat litter with it being scented and the smell not going away. I personally haven’t had any issues with it before but I washed mine over and over again. Not taking any chances on this occasion though with my luck.


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## dean (7 Mar 2016)

Rabbit poo is supposed to be a great fert


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## AverageWhiteBloke (7 Mar 2016)

Well I've plenty here I you want any  The rabbit seems to like it anyway. Rabbits are like deer, the food passes through their digestive system that fast it doesn't have time to absorb all the nutrients so it will eat them again.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (7 Mar 2016)

Just thought I'd throw a couple of random pics in of the tank that's getting broke down and my office shrimp tank. Everyone likes to see a pic in a journal but unfortunately I've nothing to show yet. As you can see I haven't been showing the main tank any tlc for a while. 




Probably about time to start making a plant list. Some I will be using from my old set up with some new ones I'll probably need some plant id's.

Not sure if I've mentioned this before while we're on the subject of apps. I find Hyplants quite handy for id'ing. It still needs some polishing but gets regular updates and some extra features so worth a look.


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## alto (7 Mar 2016)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Probably about time to start making a plant list.


decided on tank then? (quite likely I missed that  )
Wood or stone as dominant hardscape? or both?
Fish?


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## AverageWhiteBloke (7 Mar 2016)

I'm about 90% sure on the ADA H. Emailed them today for a quote on tank+delivery and other suppliers I emailed confirmed they didn't do clear silicone. Friday I thought sod it what's a bit of black silicone, I could get both tank and cabinet on its way. In fact as I was staring at my existing tank and looking at the algae in behind the silicone I actually thought black would be the better option. Then while looking for inspiration for layouts I thought no, just get the ADA and have it done with then there's no regrets. 

Now when I look at it being about £100 just for the substrate I don't know! Maybe I could use something cheaper as a first layer to bulk out but tis what will mix with what. 

Regarding the scape, I don't really know yet. I have a 600 wide tank in my shed so I maybe start messing with that. It's not as deep as the tank I'm getting but at least I can get some ideas, photo them and then try re-creating when the equipment comes. 

So far I'm thinking both stone and wood but not a lot. The plants being mainly the thing. Thinking a tall planted area to one side running down to a bit of a stone formation beach area at the opposite side. 

That like my thoughts on which tank could all change on the day though


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## AverageWhiteBloke (7 Mar 2016)

As for fish. I'll be moving most my RCS from the office tank into the new tank so shrimp friendly species a must. Definitely adding to my panda corys with more. Keeping the sae, probably some ottos and small shoaling fish. Need to re house a female krib which I've had for about 7 years which will be sad. 
The office tank I'm going to try some different shrimp and use to top up RCS on th main tank.


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## alto (7 Mar 2016)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Now when I look at it being about £100 just for the substrate I don't know! Maybe I could use something cheaper as a first layer to bulk out but tis what will mix with what.


If you plan on a rocky beach area, you can remove this volume of the tank from your calculation & then 18 litres of Tropica soil would likely suit any scape you've in mind.
If you do mix substrates, I'd follow the "different substrate in stockings" (or good strong mesh between the layers) - very frustrating to accidentally mix substrates that are not easily separated later on.
If you're just looking for added height, a larger, more porous substrate is a good idea - just make sure it's not given to floating  
(there're a couple threads on here where some sort of pumice was used, all looked well at first, then within a couple days, the upheaval happened)

If you later change your mind on the beach area, it's easy to siphon out sand & drop in more aqua-soil.
(OK I usually remove the fish but that's because I feel they're less stressed hanging out in a quite hands-free zone  ... and I like to take my time, maybe change my mind a couple times ... fish are all snug in their temporary bin)



AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Need to re house a female krib which I've had for about 7 years which will be sad.


Just get her one of those plug & play tanks that will fit into some obscure space
George Farmer has some on his YouTube channel, most are also listed here in journals


When she passes, it becomes a quarantine/hospital tank


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## AverageWhiteBloke (14 Mar 2016)

Got nothing much to add here other than I'm a few quid lighter than before I started this journal  Got my stuff ordered, went for the ADA 60H in the end up so at least I can put together a hardware list of the proposed tank. Also working on a list of plant species which I will be keeping from the existing tank and some new ones Ill be looking out for.

In the meantime I've give the existing tank a thorough clip out and thinned out to the healthiest looking specimens ready for swapping over and raised my shrimp tank up a degree. Going to start acclimatising them over the next couple of week. I run the shrimps slightly cooler at 19/20 deg but I'll probably run the main tank about 24.



 

Regarding bulking out the substrate, I was toying with the idea of siphoning out some of the cat litter and putting it in stockings to add a bit of height and also aid with the maturing process. Not sure if when the Tropica settles they may keep showing up though/


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## AverageWhiteBloke (9 Apr 2016)

Still no movement this end which is probably a good thing as I haven't done the work in the house yet!
Just waiting of my 60H to turn up which is in ready to be dispatched and my cabinet turned up with damage. Soon as I saw it on opening of the box I was hoping it was somewhere you can't see but it turned out to be the door and visible.

All I can do is preparation for now. Cranked up another degree on the shrimp tank which is acting as a plant nursery for now. My main tank which usually runs on three t8 tubes I've thoroughly clipped out and knocked one of the tubes off but carried on ei dosing. Not sure of the science behind it but I'm thinking let growth slow down and let the  plants have a gorge on nutrients so they are at their best when swapped over....plus it saves electric 

Other than that I went with 2x9ltr bags of tropica and 1x3ltr bag of tropica fine. Hopefully this should be enough substrate and I can use the finer stuff along the front for a carpet.

Speaking of which, looking for some hc or tennelus if anybody has any as well as something red, any species. I can keep these in my shrimp tank which is booming at the moment since the addition of my new led light until I set the tank up. If anyone has some give me a shout.

Also decided not to use any of the wendtil and only one of my swords so if anyone is after a load of both let me know but these will only be available on the final strip down. Leaving them in the main tank for the existing fish until the new ones cycled ready for them to move home.


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## paulharris (9 Apr 2016)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> HAHA, yeah never thought about it that way but now you mention it. I was eager to get this show on the road so I never thought about it too much. Maybe if I explain the logic behind it though it might make a bit more sense.
> 
> I've messed with planted tanks for over 20 years back in the mercury vapour pendant days and wrong information. Back in the day my first attempt I went all in with Dennerle stuff who were the world leaders at the time arguably. They were the go to people if you wanted a decent planted tank before I'd even heard of Amano. Since then my life took over and I've messed with attempts on the cheap, everything 2nd hand or off Ebay to varying levels of success. Then I found UKAPS and replanted a non planted Aqua One 850 and spent years looking at other peoples amazing set ups and doing a bit of dreaming...One day.
> 
> ...



This is a familiar story I have also benefited from advice from UKAPS. Key items for me were; Fire extinguishers for CO2, dry ferts from TNC and the article on light quality and suppliers of florescent tubes. these 3 articles resolved issues that I had been tormented by for years and saved a great deal of money


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## AverageWhiteBloke (10 Apr 2016)

Yeah, the members of UKAPS have learned me a lot. Hopefully I can apply that knowledge and create a decent display.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (31 May 2016)

Nothing much going on this end, apologies but this is going to be a slow burner. Every time I set some time aside work seems to go mental. Anyway, took the opportunity of a long weekend to try and get some stuff done. Have to say broke eggs with a stick, as ethical strip downs goes everything went well. All fish apart from some Panda Corys ended up given to a friend. The plants I've set back up at my lock up and the garden loved the much needed watering it got. Not sure if I mentioned earlier but the plan to have the two tanks running parallel went out the window when my missus decided she thinks the tank is going back in the same position as the old one!

IMG_20160530_142637 by AWB70, on Flickr

Everything stripped down, cleaned and out in the sun drying. Even washed and laid out the gravel on a tarpaulin to dry and bag up ready for a future project.

Plant tank by AWB70, on Flickr

Plants all in the old tank as an holding pen. No point buying everything new. I probably will re-use most of the species except the crypt wendt. They grow like nuts with long roots. I tend to find that you pull one out and it rips up other plants from a distance from where it was. The advantage of this I reckon is I can get my plant collection together, adding some more species and the plants are there and good to go on the day I decide to plant. Another advantage is I can bomb them with some co2 and higher dose LC so they should be in good nick when they move across. Just running 1xT8 6hrs per day with a Koralia for a bit of movement and co2 distribution.

IMG_20160529_195919 by AWB70, on Flickr

IMG_20160530_175306 by AWB70, on Flickr

Panda Corys moved over into shrimp tank. Pandas and RCS are going to be the first inhabitants of the new tank. The RCS I keep have never seen a fish before in their lives so it won't do either of them any harm to get acquainted. Not sure of other fauna. Small shoaling fish still endecided.

But more importantly....
Photo 30-05-2016, 21 02 39 by AWB70, on Flickr

The new tank is in position! or is it? Missus keeps looking at it and mentioning it might be better somewhere else. not going to commit for now until it's a definite.

Photo 30-05-2016, 21 03 07 by AWB70, on Flickr

It's all getting exciting now though, really pleased with the tank, cabinet and light. Now I just need to add some plant species and start working on my nemesis, scaping layout. At least with not having to run parallel I can take some time getting things right. Watch this space.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (2 Jun 2016)

Anyone know where to get clear 16/22mm tubing? Seen a few on ebay but not sure if it's fit for purpose. Also looking for some cuttings of a red stem plant and possibly HC or similar carpeting plant. I think so far I'm trying to achieve a densely planted, tall plant side running down to a carpeted area. Still just surfing for inspiration at the moment, so much choice.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (4 Jun 2016)

This is harder than I thought, it's ok getting the hardscape the way you want it but it's imagining how it will look with some plants round it. I suspect if I don't make things tall it will be lost when the plants grow.

WIN_20160604_21_37_55_Pro by AWB70, on Flickr

WIN_20160604_21_30_14_Pro by AWB70, on Flickr

WIN_20160604_21_29_40_Pro (2) by AWB70, on Flickr

WIN_20160604_21_22_56_Pro by AWB70, on Flickr

Any suggestions? I might even have to turn the whole thing mirror image yet so the pipes can go to the other side so they are less on show as you walk in the room. Odd, maybe its with me being right handed but it seems more natural for the equipment to be entering left as I face it.


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## Lindy (6 Jun 2016)

Looks a beautiful set up. I think it is right the way it is and have your inlet in the rear right corner and outlet front right. I also prefer the dark grey filter tubing as it doesn't look dirty in a week but you can still see when it needs a clean if you look carefully, but then I have stainless steel inlets and outlets. 

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


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## rebel (6 Jun 2016)

Beautiful indeed! The general rules about not touching the sides with hardscape don't apply in this case . Really liking it.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (6 Jun 2016)

Thanks guys, unfortunately I had to push on with the setup and give up on scaping. I went to work Sunday and noticed the plants that were being kept in the temp holding tank were melting big style! Seems to have happened over night mainly affecting the Crypts, Stellata and s.repens. Not sure if this was a reaction to high dosing of LC or because the roots were exposed. Maybe even temp changes when moving stuff about.

Thought I best just get this show on the road so set the tank up. Took the plants that were least affected and removed any damaged leaves. Tank isn't as heavily planted as I would have liked but the remaining specimens look healthy enough. Had a bit of a school boy error with the setup, because I rushed into it and was messing about with the layout the night before the wood had dried out. You guessed it, got to the last couple of inch of water and up they came pulling most of the plants up with it  Managed to get them weighted down with some stones on rubber band but bang went the vision of the scape. By time I had sorted it last night it was too cloudy to photograph but I'll get some shots later. Last I saw of it this morning things had cleared up and essentially I'm happy with the layout although the wood will need a bit of dialling in when it decides not to float. It's a work in progress anyway, even if it turned out exactly as I planned I probably would have shuffled some stuff about. My original layouts didn't take into a account the height of the gravel which was quite deep so I probably would have had to alter it anyway.

In the meantime the plants are in intensive care, hopefully I can get some flesh back on their bones. Just got the light at 25% for 5 hours and dosing EI already. Putting the recommended dose of LC in the morning because the tank gets some ambient light from a nearby patio door but don't want to be od'ing the LC just in case they're suffering from a hangover from the holding tank  Expecting some die back though.

Regarding pipes. I had to use the green eheim ones I already had. The inlet and out let were in the best positions I could get with the length of tube I had. These might change if the flow isn't right. I was intending to hole cut the cabinet with a white plastic desk tidy but to be fair I couldn’t bring myself to do it. Things look a lot neater with the pipes out the back.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (6 Jun 2016)

Best I can come up with for now.  My phones away getting repaired and my spare is rubbish. Had to take this with the one on my laptop.

WIN_20160606_23_09_53_Pro by AWB70, on Flickr

Water is clearing up nicely and no signs of any plants deteriorating further, the Balansae looks like it took the worst hit. I've switched over the full co2 setup from my old tank which held about 50 or so ltrs more water than this one and had a lot more plants. Haven't bothered adjusting the bubble rate obviously just the timing to coincide with this tanks timing. Got some lager coloured DC's in the worst flow areas. Would worry me if there was fauna in there but while the cory cats away the plants can play I guess.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (21 Jun 2016)

Nothing really to add at the moment, week 2 shot, Didn't do one for week one, as you can see with the pebble wedged in the roots that one piece refused to sink after I took the stones off on WC day  Very annoying not to be able to see the scape as I intended it for the first time but the roots are pretty much whereabouts they will be going. Ripped a few plants up as well when it floated so I took a hissy fit and and left it, hopefully another week submerged will do it.

On the brighter side though while I was in P@H I spotted a healthy bunch of Lindernia rotundfolia, nice looking plant, reminds me of gooseberries. Added this to the front left side to cheer myself up. Got a bit of surface scum but I'm not worrying, it will go. The plants seem to have finished with melting at the moment and some signs of new growth. My co2 I turned down, on my previous setup I had a 3in1 bubble counter/check valve/diffuser but plugged straight into a glass diffuser here, put a bubble counter I had lying about on at the weekend and my co2 was full on! Turned it down a little so I could at least see separate bubbles (still too many to count per second) The DC is still yellow but I think I'll leave it like that for a while, don't want to be messing too much and encouraging BBA. It needs no encouragement to start with. I'll re-evaluate the situation when the plants are growing in more and using a bit of co2 prior to adding any fauna.

Full tank by AWB70, on Flickr

Was working on my list of Hardware and plants so I could post that up. Only one I'm not really sure about is the fore plant between the Lindernia rotundfolia and the Japonica. I have a better picture of it from my shrimp tank where it came from if anyone can ID please.

unknown plant by AWB70, on Flickr
Quick shot from the side. (Really need to get a camera)

side shot by AWB70, on Flickr

And the DC still looking good as well as the Balansae making a come back. Glad I saved some Balansae, I keep some of every species in my shrimp tank but after the melting disaster this was the last portion of it I had left.

Drop Checker by AWB70, on Flickr

Talking of the shrimp tank, things are looking quite healthy in there at the moment. I'm considering leaving the Panda cats in there as permanent residents. One looks a lot fuller bodied than the other and chances of them being a male and female, maybe spawn, worth a try, I haven't spawned anything and raised the young for about six years ago with my Kribs so might be an interesting little project. I also added some water lettuce in the main tank, hopefully it will soak up some of that spare ammonia and I can get some RCS in here within the next couple of weeks. My shrimp tank is at critical mass at the moment!

shrimp by AWB70, on Flickr

I also came across this picture courtesy of ADA Italy on Instagram, thought I'd post that up here as well as a bit of a mood room shot to remind me of what type of things I like and try and incorporate some of them into the scape. Might have mentioned this before but I'm useless at scaping, things either look good to me or they don't regardless of the ratio and focal point or what have you. Not exactly what I'm trying to achieve but something similar in that vein. One side heavily planted with an open area front left.

ada by AWB70, on Flickr

I have followed some jungle scaping rules by not putting plants with same leaf shape next to each other and in rows wherever possible. Other than that it's just a bit random.

Feel free to comment, any advice greatly appreciated.


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## Wisey (22 Jun 2016)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Plants all in the old tank as an holding pen. No point buying everything new. I probably will re-use most of the species except the crypt wendt. They grow like nuts with long roots. I tend to find that you pull one out and it rips up other plants from a distance from where it was.



I'm a little late to the game with this, but if you want to move plants with large root structures such as Crypts, you don't have to pull the whole root out and cause mayhem. For ease of replanting, you are likely to trim most of the root off anyway, so just ease the plant up so that enough root for replanting is exposed, trim at the substrate, lift out the plant to re-use with 4-5 cm of root on the bottom and leave the rest of the root in the substrate. It will die off in the substrate and just adds nutrients to your substrate.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (22 Jun 2016)

Thanks Wisey, I've heard someone mention that before about an Amazon sword they were removing. My plants were moved to a bare bottomed tank for storage just until I set my new tank up. They're all back in now other than the wendtil which melted in the holding tank. I still have a couple of them in my shrimp tank if I need some in future. I’m a bit weird like that  for some reason every time I buy a plant it doesn't matter if I don't really want that particular type in the scape I will always keep at least one specimen in on of my tanks in case I want one for future. At some point I'll have the finest collection of plants in the UK.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (4 Dec 2016)

Wow, just been reading through this again and it seems like a lifetime ago now. I don't think I could have picked a worse time to be setting up a scape and doing my first journal  busy at work and home improvements at home so haven't had time to keep up. I also don't own a camera and my phone broke, been using a crappy old thing until my contract was up so unfortunately no decent pics. I managed to get a few using my laptop cam and a phone I recently got and try and bring things up to date.

Been through the usual start up issues but this tank has been fairly kind to me on the algae front. Had some brown algae to start with which wiped off easily as well as cutting off affected leaves. Some pictures of the tank, hopefully in the correct timeline order.

Going back to June 20th 2016




June by AWB70, on Flickr


26th Aug 2016



Aug by AWB70, on Flickr

As you can see things are starting to grow in a bit better. Also haven't added any fish yet. The good thing is about not having any time you can be more patient. Added some RCS, didn't see any casualties so I guess the substrate had done it's job and fishless cycled the tank. A few week later added 9 Ember Tetra. Lost one pretty much the same day but all the rest were fine...then the problems began.



Sept 2 by AWB70, on Flickr

Again, apologies for the camera work. The adding of fish as well as some missing of water changes had a bit of a breakout of green filamentous algae of unknown type. Starting to get on top of it now.



oct by AWB70, on Flickr

The algae pretty much decimated the Rota and hairgrass. Currently taking out the Japonicas on the right hand side and replacing with what's left growing tips from the Rota.

Pics taken Saturday after a clip out.



corner view by AWB70, on Flickr

Had to change from an inline atomiser back to a glass diffuser. The inline was very effective but the Embers just didn't like it at all. They seemed to hang in the upper back corner where the mist was at its least, not gasping at all just staying away. As soon is it's knocked off they would start swimming normally again. Not to worry, I know I may be wasting some gas but I think the glass diffusers are quite aesthetically pleasing..even when they are not running.



ember tetra by AWB70, on Flickr



hairgrass algae by AWB70, on Flickr

Still battling with the hairgrass, been clipping it out and spraying direct with LC.



s.repens algae by AWB70, on Flickr

Also affecting around the bottom of S.repens. This is the areas I had to clear out.



side view by AWB70, on Flickr

Japonica always seems to try and float away.



fts december by AWB70, on Flickr

Light on 25% Setting for last hour.


light up a corner by AWB70, on Flickr

But on the plus side, lights up a corner nicely! 

Any comments or help greatly appreciated.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (30 Jan 2017)

Still battling with the same old algae. Not sure which type it is so I've attached a picture. It seems more prevalent in the flow of water at the front and been removing it manually but its a PITA in my hair grass as you end up yanking that out with it.



IMG_20170128_1538242 by AWB70, on Flickr



IMG_20170128_1537498 by AWB70, on Flickr



IMG_20170123_2154226 by AWB70, on Flickr

Is there any condition in particular this algae thrives or do I just need to tighten up all parameters?


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## dw1305 (31 Jan 2017)

Hi all,





AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Still battling with the same old algae. Not sure which type it is so I've attached a picture.


If it feels tough and a bit "gritty"? It is _<"Cladophora">. 
_
cheers Darrel


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## AverageWhiteBloke (31 Jan 2017)

Certainly looks like it Darrel based on those pictures , I'll get a piece out and give it a feel. It's not particularly stubborn and doesn't appear to be growing attached to the plants more growing within the structure of the plant. It is very easy to remove, you just grab it with your fingers and a whole clump just pulls away other than in the hair grass where you tend to uproot the grass. It also seems to grow around the base  of the plants and spreads upwards.

As with most of the algae on JPT it says low co2 or nutrients. I'm currently dosing EI at around 21ppm kno3 per week and 2ppm po4. With weekly 50% wc and Mid week about an hour before lights off I change about 2 gall just to drop the water level and get a bit off has exchange. My tank holds quite a bit of co2 due to not having much surface agitation. Based on the water lettuce and duck weed nutrients don't appear at first glance to be an issue.

I've just changed my co2 bottle and right now co2 is a little high for my liking, DC is quite yellow in the evening and I find a couple of my ottos hanging out on Sword leaves that are next to the surface which they don't generally do. Don't fancy turning it up any more although I have added some more ottos at the weekend and they could still be climatising to a co2 rich environment.

As for flow the algae seems more prevalent in high flow areas.I have the outlet pointing towards the hairgrass.

Maybe just needs a bit more time and manual removal. I also dose 3ml Flourish in 100 ltrs and have recently added a bag of purigen to the filter so the only thing left in my arsenal is the kitchen sink 

Other than this everything seems fine. Just added another three Embers at the weekend and four ottos bringing the total to 10 of each. That's me nearly fully stocked including the shrimp. Just got 6 pygmy Cory's to add but I'll give things chance to settle with the new additions before getting them. Struggling to find any at the minute just normal ones which are a bit big, trying to keep the scale right. I have one panda Cory which is living out retirement from a previous set up, was going to get more but I find they don't seem to care which variety of Cory they hang out with.


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## dw1305 (31 Jan 2017)

Hi all,
I don't tend to get it in the tanks, low nutrient, no added CO2 and softish water, but that may because the snails graze it off before it becomes obvious. I found a large tuft in one of the tanks once, lodged in an _Anubias, _and in the flow from the filter, but it never spread and eventually disappeared. I actually like the look of it, and would quite like it to grow in the tanks

I think _Cladophora _is quite a difficult one to control. Not much eats it, and it is a <"green algae">, and they are very similar in physiology to the plants we want to grow.

cheers Darrel


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## AverageWhiteBloke (31 Jan 2017)

So as algae goes it may be a good sign that things are fine it just got a foot hold somehow. It's definitely not at a nuisance stage right now. If it wasn't attached to the hairgrass I could probably completely remove it like I have on the Staurgoyne. The plants certainly appear to grow faster than it does so it can't really dominate. In fact rather than spread it seems to go into a denser tighter ball. I maybe try trimming the hairgrass down really short as the algae is mainly on the surface of it and see if I can eradicate it that. 
Just realised this is supposed to be a journal so better get some updates going  Thanks for your response Darrel, as always very informative. I know this isn't really your bag forcing Plants to grow as opposed to your philosophy of just letting Plants grow.


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## dw1305 (1 Feb 2017)

Hi all, 





AverageWhiteBloke said:


> So as algae goes it may be a good sign that things are fine


Yes, pretty much.





AverageWhiteBloke said:


> In fact rather than spread it seems to go into a denser tighter ball. I maybe try trimming the hairgrass down really short as the algae is mainly on the surface of it and see if I can eradicate it that.


I think manual removal is a good idea.


AverageWhiteBloke said:


> I know this isn't really your bag forcing Plants to grow as opposed to your philosophy of just letting Plants grow.


I'm just lazy. I've spent the last two months looking at the scum of floating _Riccia_ and _Utricularia gibba _on one of the tanks, and thinking _"I should probably remove some of it", _but I haven't and it is now about 2" thick and has engulfed moss and _Ceratopteris_ plants as well.

cheers Darrel


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## micheljq (2 Feb 2017)

castle said:


> relatively depressing journal title though



Title is the same as a song from Black Sabbath


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## AverageWhiteBloke (3 Feb 2017)

micheljq said:


> Title is the same as a song from Black Sabbath



I wish that was the reason why I called it that now, didn't realise must have been subliminal when I was playing it backwards 

Time for some shots, apologies for the phone pics but at least my new phone has a better camera than my previous one..

Algae starts like this.



IMG_20170131_2206342 by AWB70, on Flickr

Then culminates into this although very easy to just pull out in clumps. Some use you are mate  Ok fair enough, it's like feeding bananas to a piranha but he looks healthy enough on something even if this algae isn't his thing. 


IMG_20170131_2205134 by AWB70, on Flickr

Not quite as easy too remove from the hairgrass though!



IMG_20170131_2205260 by AWB70, on Flickr

He's not much use either but good to watch.



IMG_20170131_2213472 by AWB70, on Flickr

As you can see my lily pipe enters from the rear left pointing towards the front of the tank so the hairgrass and s.repens get the full flow making me think flow isn't an issue. No signs of any plant deficiencies either in the Water lettuce and duck weed which can get out of hand if not netted out weekly.



IMG_20170131_2210300 by AWB70, on Flickr

Doesn't appear to affect anywhere else on the tank other than the odd clump on the wood. Only really in areas of high flow.



IMG_20170131_2215238 by AWB70, on Flickr

I'm running my co2 a fair bit higher than I normally would, looks lager yellow when taken out the tank.



IMG_20170131_2212308 by AWB70, on Flickr

Doesn't seem to bother the other ottos or embers. New ones are settling in.



IMG_20170131_2207191 by AWB70, on Flickr




IMG_20170131_2208099 by AWB70, on Flickr

Except this guy who doesn't appear to have moved from this position since I got them 5 days ago???



IMG_20170131_2203375 by AWB70, on Flickr

Obligatory FTS, can't get the right angle because my dining room table and chairs are in the way which means I have to move them to get a 90 angle to the tank...One day when I think its worth it though and I have a decent camera.



IMG_20170123_2154226 by AWB70, on Flickr

As usual I've let the tank do what it wants and grow where ever it wants. My next move is better placing of plants and some structure. I think I'm just a habitual junglist.



IMG_20170131_2159146 by AWB70, on Flickr

All comments or advice greatly appreciated.


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## Doubu (4 Feb 2017)

From my experience, thats due to excessive lighting. I think you're on the right track (reducing hours). I also recommend cutting back your dosing at the same time. I had the same thing happen - reduced lighting intensity, period and did not dose for like 3 weeks.. eventually it kinda went away on its own and I manually removed the rest and am slowly starting to dose again.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (4 Feb 2017)

Doubu said:


> From my experience, thats due to excessive lighting. I think you're on the right track (reducing hours). I also recommend cutting back your dosing at the same time. I had the same thing happen - reduced lighting intensity, period and did not dose for like 3 weeks.. eventually it kinda went away on its own and I manually removed the rest and am slowly starting to dose again.


I'm always a bit dubious about reducing ferts at anytime of algae. Strangely this situation became worse when I increased the amount of water changes unless it's a throw back from the previous couple of months where wc's were a bit hit and miss. 

My lighting is on for 7 hours from 4.30pm to 11.30pm, intensity is at 100% throughout and the light isn't what I would call excessively bright compared to say T 5 's.  

Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


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## xim (4 Feb 2017)

Hi, I have an acquaintance who had these algae. Only manual removal got rid of them. They are very similar to moss. Some sources even call them a moss, i.e., moss balls.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (4 Feb 2017)

Funny you should mention that, I had a feel of it today during the water change and I can't say that it felt gritty at all. Because the ball gets tighter rather than spreading I thought to myself this reminds me of those Moss balls you often see for sale in the lfs. 

Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


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## Doubu (4 Feb 2017)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> I'm always a bit dubious about reducing ferts at anytime of algae. Strangely this situation became worse when I increased the amount of water changes unless it's a throw back from the previous couple of months where wc's were a bit hit and miss.
> 
> My lighting is on for 7 hours from 4.30pm to 11.30pm, intensity is at 100% throughout and the light isn't what I would call excessively bright compared to say T 5 's.
> 
> Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk



Ahhh, my rationale is that you want to starve your tank of all nutrients so that there's no energy for it to grow anymore. It won't allow it to spread (and isolate in the areas left) while it stagnates and slowly withers out (your other plants might suffer). I have a feeling that 7 hours might be the issue as well - is this tank exposed to ambient light from the outside? As long as you keep testing and adjusting I'm sure you'll conquer it .


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## AverageWhiteBloke (4 Feb 2017)

That corner of the tank is exposed to light as it is closest to the patio window, however, the window faces East so is generally dark in the morning and by the evening the sun is round the other side of the house. 

Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


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## Doubu (4 Feb 2017)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> That corner of the tank is exposed to light as it is closest to the patio window, however, the window faces East so is generally dark in the morning and by the evening the sun is round the other side of the house.
> 
> Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk



I think we've found the issue haha! My Brio35 is the same, although it's not directly in the light, it still gets exposed a bit for a few hours and it really throws everything off...


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## AverageWhiteBloke (18 Feb 2017)

I've been looking at my dosing lately and wondering if I could reduce the amount of ferts based on my tank being fully stocked and the fauna should be producing nitrate etc. I'm not one for running to extremes as handy as this is. Also should help in reducing my TDS build up a little by not dosing as much salts.

Currently my regime is along the lines of.

100 ltr tank taking into account hardscape.

Macros in a 500ml bottle
30 Grams of KNO3
4 Grams of PO4
Dosing 20ml 3x per week

Micros in a 250ml bottle
10 Grams traces co2 art
Dosing 5ml 3x per week

So using James calculator (I have tried other ones but they all give differing results and James seems to be the simplest) I appear to be dosing the following.

KNO3  7.36 ppm 3x per week 22.08ppm weekly
PO4     1.12 ppm 3x per week 3.36ppm weekly
Mg        10ppm (Dry dosed on WC day in a oner)

According to the above calc that would have my K at about 15.3ppm weekly, considering ukaps ei page says the following.

Nitrate (NO3) 20ppm per week
Potassium (K) 30ppm per week
Phosphate (PO4) 3ppm per week
Magnesium (Mg) 10ppm per week
Iron (Fe) 0.5ppm per week

My K looks like it's at the bottom of where I want to be. Taking into consideration that my tapwater is very soft and according to various test kits (there I've said it ) which I appreciate are probably two fields and a dyke out. What I do know about my tapwater is that it has no mag, no nitrate and loaded with po4. Even given the inaccuracy of the tests the PO4 is still off the scale. So, if I'm looking at salt reduction what would be the way forward?

I'm thinking using my water lettuce and duck weed as an indicator to keep the mag levels the same and gradually reduce the macro dosing by 1ml in the back end of the week dosing when the accumulation is probably at its highest as in dose the 20ml Saturday, 20ml Monday and 19ml Wed then maybe work to 20:19:19, 19:19:19 and so on until I find an issue.

My main concern is does the K have a lower limit so that I don't confuse low K with with low No3 or low PO4? Was thinking if my current 15ppm of K has caused no issues should I set that as lower limit and supplement my dosing by extra pot sulph to maintain the lower limit? Another worry is if my PO4 out that tap is high and I reduce no3 and po4 together gradually would I hit a point of low no3 but still high po4? Would it maybe better to reduce the po4 first in my mixed bottle to see how that goes?

Appreciate you thoughts and opinions on it.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (22 Jul 2017)

Just thought I'd throw some random mobile shots of the tank pre clip out. As you can see quite a lot has changed. Pics don't do it justice if I may say so myself, really need to get a half decent camera.




 

 

 

 
Some shots were taken with 100% lighting and some at 50. I tend to run the tank at 50 these days. Added some Rams which prefer softer water and running 100% lighting with lots of salts was causing my TDS to rise quite significantly so I dropped the lighting to 50 and started dosing lower using Darrels duck weed index as an indicator of when I was too low but to be fair still haven't came across any deficiency. I noticed that to get my co2 right by lights on the ph would just keep dropping in the evening so now when I get in usually about 2 hours before co2 off I give the tank a 100% light burst to try and burn a bit of excess co2 off. Just got sick of meddling with it TBH, couldn't seem to find a happy medium with co2.

I no longer dose LC except on WC change for spot dosing as I found the Balansae didn't like it and fell apart. Also stepped up my cleaning regime regarding filters and changes and have found this far more beneficial regarding algae than messing with co2 and ferts. Unfortunately the hairs grass I had to rip out, couldn't keep on top of it and pulling out clumps of algae just kept up rooting it. Replaced it with a MC carpet which is coming on strong, looks a bit yellow on the tops in some of the pics but that was down to letting it grow too much and I don't think the light was penetrating through it so its currently growing back from a good scissoring, same goes for the S.Repens.

I think I might up the lights again to 100% right through the period now that I have about third surface coverage with duck weed. Some of the higher lighting plants are appearing to get a bit sparse down the bottom but that will mean looking at my co2 again I guess which is a PITA. Using an inline diffuser which seems to have better results but it starts to start of slow bubble counts and get faster as the days goes on but can't find any leaks. Toying with the idea of going back to my reactor, not really a fan of fizzy water even though I know it's beneficial but the plumbing of it is a bit of a pain as well due to how the cabinet is designed and the space I have. Would be easier modifying the cabinet but don't know if it's worth it.

I'll take the easy option and say its not a scape as such, more a long term tank mainly designed for the well being of the fauna and trying different plants out.

Any comments or advise greatly appreciated.


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## alto (22 Jul 2017)

I glanced back through the journal but still unclear as to

Substrate?
Lighting?
Filter?

(just curious  )


The P erectus looks a bit thrifty  - not sure on the why (ok balance but that tells you nothing concrete) 
I grow this in moderate tech - nice LED lights, CO2, water change, fertilizers etc - & no tech (window light, no CO2, occasional water change, even less occasional fertilizer - though I do use Tropica Soil as substrate), yours looks like a leggy version of the latter which suggests something is limiting its growth 

From what I read in your post above, you run with higher CO2 & fertilizer BUT I have extreme soft tap water & that changes things rather significantly - I suspect - some advanced plants grow like weeds & some easy plants just melt away .... the disclaimer being that I'm a lazy aquarist so anything that doesn't thrive with my minimal efforts can grow in someone else's tanks  

In your instance, I'd not add any phosphate in the fertilizer mix as it's already present in tap - you can get proper #'s from your water board if you like - personally I don't find the basic aquarium kits to be all that inaccurate or imprecise (but I used to syringe microlitres & report picomole binding constants sooooo ....)

Maybe try reducing the surface cover (what is duckweed anyway  - the local version is nothing you'd want in your tank as it clogs filters & sticks in every plant) before upping light intensity OR do a  1-2h 100% burst midday when CO2 levels are optimum etc 


The tank looks very nice!
Mine is no scrapers dream either, I try to scape for my fish first & that's also why moderate CO2 etc


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## alto (22 Jul 2017)

The rams have brilliant colours & obviously not complaining


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## AverageWhiteBloke (23 Jul 2017)

Thanks all for the likes and interest, really appreciate the input. Always good to get some opinions, sometime you can't see the wood for the trees. 



alto said:


> I glanced back through the journal but still unclear as to
> 
> Substrate?
> Lighting?
> Filter?



You're right, reading back through the journal I've realised it looks more like me thinking out loud and not much detail so here's some specs....

*Equipment*
ADA60H 600x450x450mm (supposed 125ltr without scape and substrate, based on size of canister filter I treat the tank as 100ltrs volume)
Lighting UP Pro Led light Z series P
Don't know much about the light as LED isn't my thing, all I know is it has 30x0.5watt leds, depending on what you read last is about 7>8000k and runs on 15watts of power. If watts is an indicator I would say this is quite low in comparision to say the Chihiros stuff. I've always assumed it to be low to med lighting going off the reviews I've found. No idea of PAR
Tropica Aquarium Soil Substrate
Aqua One 1250 Aquis Advance Canister filer (supposedly 1250 lph) Containing sponges, ceramic and bio balls.
Eheim 350 Surface Skimmer
Lilly Pipes 
Up-aqua 100watt heater 
Inline diffuser
Co2 Art pro regulator

*Fauna*
8nr Ottos
8nr Amanos
8nr Ember Tetra
Pair of Czech Blue Rams
6nr Sterbai
2nr Panda Cory (weren't part of the plan but a couple of old mates of mine from previous setups seeing out their retirement)
Possibly some RCS (very rarely see any these days but had some in at setup and one by one found them dead in filters intake slits and the eheim)

I'll put a list up of flora shortly, I have the tropica labels that came with most of the plants which I can't find right now and I'm really bad with plant names.

*Ferts
Currently Dosing Weekly*
22ppm Kno3
2.52ppm PO4
14.94ppm K (Derived from the above)
5ppm Mag Sulf (From 1 tsp epsom salts chucked in after WC
Traces Aquarium plant food (unsure of exactly what, I mix 10gram in 250ml bottle and dose 5ml 3xper week
Recently started using Tetra Crypto tabs just because I was in LFS and couldn't find anything to buy  Put two tabs in once per month (contains no P or N)*

Chemistry
Tank Water
As checked today 50% WC was yesterday (No CO2 on)*
7dgh
4dkh
210 ppm TDS (Took from 2 really crap TDS pens, on is a high value pen I can't calibrate down enough the other factory calibrated, when checked against ref solution measure about 10ppm higher than ref. One said 219 other said 210 so make of that as you will. I just use them as a guide.
7.2PH*

Tapwater*
2dgh
1dkh
89ppm TDS
PH 7.4



alto said:


> (what is duckweed anyway  - the local version is nothing you'd want in your tank as it clogs filters & sticks in every plant)



Which brings me round to the Duck Weed, before adding the RAMS tests show my TDS was in the 350ppm at the end of the week just prior to WC. My tapwater had no measurable gh/kh and a TDS of 39ppm which lead me to believe that I was adding too much salts considering the only other hardening factors would be the three lumps of seiryu stone in the tank. Since I started the tank I was dosing the recommended 30ppm KNO3, 3PPM PO4 and 10PPM Magnesium weekly, over the last few months I have gradually been incrementally dropping my dosing and using the co2/Light unlimited  Duck weed as an early warning indicator of deficiency, as you can see from the below pic that at the rate I'm dosing currently the Duck Weed is in good health which also has the upside of my TDS now is very rarely over 250ppm by WC day.*



 
*
Was all going well until my local water authority decided to blend my tap water with well water which increased TDS GH/KH so I now have to take that into account although I have no intentions of lowering dosing right now as I seem to be in a bit of a sweet spot regarding TDS/plant growth.*
*


alto said:


> In your instance, I'd not add any phosphate in the fertilizer mix as it's already present in tap - you can get proper #'s from your water board if you like - personally I don't find the basic aquarium kits to be all that inaccurate or imprecise



Interesting you should say this, I do have my Water Authority figures for Tap Water which show no hardness/No magnesium/No Nitrate and avg 1-2ppm phosphate however these were the figures prior to the blending. I do occasionally use API tests and don't tend to give them too much credence however when combined with other factors I>E TDS and the Duck Weed they do seem to corroborate each other. Regarding nitrate the kit runs through yellow to red so I tend to avoid any redness in the result if TDS is rising and DW is healthy I see that as possibly reducing ferts slightly. PO4 does indeed measure between 1-2ppm out the tap but always a lot lower at the end of the growing week (taken when nothing has been dosed for two days on the morning of WC to avoid ferts or water conditioners affecting the results) Combined with a bit of GSA on the lily outlet and glass I was actually starting to consider adding a touch more po4 as it happens so that is interesting. 

As you say though my Pogostomus does look a bit leggy at times as does another red plant at the back. Which seem to pick up about 4 inch from the substrate. Maybe I should be looking at my co2 and distribution again. Water comes in from the main filter co2 enriched from the back left corner pointing towards the front of the tank which keeps my MC carpet happy. The flow of water then gets round to the eheim skim in the back right corner which points along the back glass over the heater and creates a circular swirling motion in the tank and creates movement in the back corners.



 

 

There's also a couple of Amazon's in there which don't do to good. One of them Red, I originally chopped the normal amazon swords down to substrate level as the centre of the tank was too busy and they didn't grow too well. The red amazon is a later edition impulse buy and is very slow growing. The original swords have made a come back but the leaves don't generally get any bigger the 4/5 inch and I end up cutting them back due to BBA on the edges. Thought the tabs might ipmrove their growth when placed by the roots but not much change really. As you can see in most pics I still have some filamentous algae mainly in the repens but it picks out in clumps easy enough and doesn't seem to be as prevalent is it was before but I have stepped up my tank husbandy. Found leaving the filter/pipework too long before cleaning was the worst offender.*
*
Here’s some of the crew with some plant shots, plants seem in relatively good health I think although spotting deficiency isn't my forte.* 






 

 

 

 


 


 
*
Also found a bit of leftover hairgrass trying to make a come back so I put it in an open area. I'll see how it goes although I'll be keeping as a standalone plant rather than trying to carpet it.
*


 
*
My phone appears to do better close up shots than distance although I know nothing about photography or the phones manual settings, just ordered a little tripod with blue tooth controller off ebay. Getting a decent FTS is hardwork as I have a glass dining room table in front of the tank so I have to lay on it to get a FTS which as you can imagine results in shaky hands  Hopefully with the tripod I can get some better shots.

I think that's all I've got for the current state of play. Thinking out loud again I'm considering ramping the lights up to see if that helps with the legginess. Lights are on 50% from 6pm to 12pm co2 comes on at 2pm to 9.30pm. Since using the surface skimmer I find it's quite difficult to get a good PH drop by time lights come on, generally around 6.6 at lights on but this will keep going down to around 6.3/6.4 around co2 off which then gasses of at a rate of about .2 unit until lights off. I counter this by ramping the lights up to 100% when I get in from work for a couple of hours and then drop it back to 50% around 10pm. If I'm considering going full lighting throughout the period I guess I should take another look at co2 first and see if I can dial it in a bit better. I find that around 8.30/9 ish when co2 is at its peak my fish get a little uncomfortable. No laboured breathing more hanging out in corners not looking too happy.

Again. any comments greatly appreciated. I feel the tank is doing ok at the moment and not very problematic as far as algae and growth goes but it just seems to be lacking that certain something.

Thanks for reading.


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## dw1305 (24 Jul 2017)

Hi all,





AverageWhiteBloke said:


> I feel the tank is doing ok at the moment and not very problematic as far as algae and growth goes


The plant health looks pretty good, and so do the fish. 

Looking at the Frogbit leaves I think you can up the light a bit. 

At higher light they may start to develop red "tiger" stripes, and possibly grow aerial leaves (although mine only do this if they root in the substrate). 



 


 

cheers Darrel


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## AverageWhiteBloke (24 Jul 2017)

Thanks Darrel, appreciate the input. I think I'll maintain my current dosing for a month and see if anything further can be shaved off after turning up the lights for a while. Don't want to risk lowering it much more right now, the tanks been running in excess for some time and now I have a bit more floating coverage sucking out ferts and the plant mass is building up a bit I'll see if the excess gets mopped up. Turning the lights up to 100% throughout will also eat a bit more.

The Pogostomus has always grew leggy but in the first planting it was quite shaded from the repens and stone so when I topped them off I replanted the heads in a better place, they still don't flourish for the first 3 or 4 inches though. Maybe turning the light up will improve that situation. they don't get shaded by the DW because the eheim pulls all the DW into the back right corner which shades mainly the Balansae which doesn't need too much along the lines of light anyway.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (27 Jul 2017)

Been having a mess with my phone camera now my Tripod has arrived. Not a bad bit of kit for £7, obviously I'm not going to get decent pics from a phone but from what I hear I can improve them by using the manual settings. 

Only settings I have are iso, white balance, shutter speed and what appears to distance from subject. Any recommendations on settings to start with? Any entry level half decent cameras people would suggest?





Kebab Night for the Ottos 





Having a mess with some lenses that I got, not very good. Can only focus the macro lens when combined with the bubble eye lens but only a couple of quid so why not  





Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


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