# Quarantine procedure. Thoughts?



## Geoffrey Rea (4 Jan 2019)

Hello.


I’m looking for people’s thought’s regarding quarantine procedures for introducing new fish. Specifically I’m looking for a rationale behind any actions taken and wanted to know what others have found to work for them.


Assuming your quarantine tank/tanks are entirely separate from all other aquariums (own nets, siphoning tubing, cleaning/water changing gear etc) and it’s bare except for filter, heater and air stone, I wanted to direct the conversation towards three things:



How long to quarantine new fish for? And why?
Do you preventively treat fish with medicines ‘to be sure’ or simply observe for a set period of time?
If you are preventively treating any new fish, what do you treat for?


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## dw1305 (4 Jan 2019)

Hi all,





Geoffrey Rea said:


> I’m looking for people’s thought’s regarding quarantine procedures for introducing new fish. Specifically I’m looking for a rationale behind any actions taken and wanted to know what others have found to work for them.


I don't have a bare quarantine tank, <"I have a spare planted tank with a filter"> etc. 

I store spare sponges, plant cuttings, bits of wood, spare moss & floating plants etc. in the tank, and I treat it like the other tanks, but the tank doesn't have any permanent residents. I don't like bare bottom tanks, so there is a shallow layer of sand or cat litter.

When I buy new fish, have a fish I want to isolate, have unexpected fry etc. I put them in the tank. New fish stay there for six weeks, by which time I should be pretty sure that they don't have any internal parasites etc.

My rationale is that I wouldn't keep a fish I already tended for in a bare tank, so why would I put a new, stressed fish in a bare tank with no plants or overhead cover etc just so I could keep an eye on it? I want to give it the best chance, and the best chance is in a fully established  tank with plenty of live food etc.

Have a look at <"Splash Tetra - _Copella....._ ">, it shows my spare tank.

cheers Darrel


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## Geoffrey Rea (4 Jan 2019)

Thanks for the input Darrel. I must admit the most recent quarantine tank I’ve run ended up as a spare planted tank as well. Largely to justify running the thing. It also makes sense that keeping stressed fish in a bare tank with no cover doesn’t present the most reassuring environment.

That being said I’ve observed fish for four-five weeks in a spare planted tank before with no strange behaviour or outward signs of illness, only to be greeted with ich once the new species has been introduced to the main aquarium.  I know there’s potentially several explanations for this, including the ich was present in the main aquarium already, seizing the opportunity to infect the newly stressed fish.


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## Geoffrey Rea (4 Jan 2019)

It makes me wonder if two quarantine tanks makes more sense, first tank bare with the ability to preventively treat. Easy to put together, just pop in a matured sponge filter and dismantle when not required. The second being the spare planted tank which is a more permanent fixture so the fish can spend the majority of the six week quarantine period in more beneficial surroundings.


I believe the dividing point here is whether you think treating healthy looking fish is acceptable as a preventive measure or just adds stress.


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## PARAGUAY (4 Jan 2019)

I probably saw or read this about keeping a quarantine tank running with plants ,(as Darrell does)  on the forum when I joined UKAPS after coming back to aquariums and my quarantine tank often gets plant cuttings etc put in there with a algarde sponge filter. Also have small internal ready for adding seeded media if needed. I dont know how many shops have quarantine tanks these days but a few years ago  a customer was asking about why the shop hadnt got a certain fish in the shop. The ownwr/staff explained they was having difficulty puting them on sale not getting them out of quarantine even though other shops had them for sale at which point he invited about 3 of us in the back were he had as many quarantine tanks as display tanks,it was sort of a light bulb moment fo me


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## Keith GH (5 Jan 2019)

Geoffrey Rea

Shock Horror 
I never had a spare tank or the space to put it safely.  I was very lucky to have excellent LFS all were privately owned except one company shop but that was run like a private LFS.   Another point I never bought on their delivery day, look yes buy never.   Another time to look was as soon as they opened you would be surprised how many times I saw a dead fish in the tank especially after a new delivery. 

Keith


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## Geoffrey Rea (5 Jan 2019)

You’ve kind of touched on the very point that started this post for me Paraguay. What is permissible for sale these days is not necessarily stock that will be free of problems but that may look free of problems. It’s just a matter of incentive. Trying to be more vigilant and patient with regards to the quarantine process.


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## tam (5 Jan 2019)

My setup/rational is roughly the same as Darrell. 

My main goal is to prevent a disease spreading from a small number to a big number. So I basically have a tank that is a normal tank (substrate, plants etc.), but doesn't already have fish in. The new fish can chill out, get used to my water, have less competition for food etc. and I will move them on into the main tank  - usually after about 3 weeks of no issues. Three weeks is just because that seems long enough to get over the stress of the move to bring out anything that might might develop from it. 

I start mine in water matched to my LFS, gradually swap them to my own mix so by the time they move to the main tank they are going to/from identical water. 

No preventatives. My, unscientific, rational is I don't keep things isolated enough that I'd expect nothing to be kicking around in small numbers anyway. I don't  routinely treat my existing fish there is no point worrying too much about sterilising the new ones. I swap plants with people, I feed live food from my LFS or collected from buckets outside, I'm sure I dip my arm in my pond and then in the tanks without thinking. I think the trouble is a lot of treatments can be as bad for fish (or their environment) as the things they are to get rid of.


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## Geoffrey Rea (5 Jan 2019)

With regards to the original three points outlining this conversation in post #1, so far I think it’s fair to say that the quarantine period that people follow is largely arbitrary. Four to six weeks is generally what I’ve heard and up to this day it hasn’t been based on the life cycle of a parasite, disease etc... Just popular consciousness maybe?

As Keith pointed out, who you buy from and when you buy stock from them will be important factors.

I think your point Tam can be summarised as herd immunity to some extent, correct me if I’m off the mark. Any weak specimens being introduced won’t survive in a more freely exposed environment but the existing inhabitants, being settled, have good immunity by the fact they’re alive.

I’m surprised no one is up for preventative treatment.


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## Oldguy (5 Jan 2019)

Many years ago I had free fish meds and tried 'preventative treatments' in a bare tank. Came to the conclusion that I was making bad worse.

Now very selective about buying fish and judge the whole stock in the shop.

New fish go into a 20 gal planted tank with canister and undergravel filter for at least three weeks. I assume wholesaler has fed them medicated food and dipped them for flukes, but fish/bag water may carry white spot. Large expensive fish were a problem, now only buy small shoaling/schooling fish, display tank too heavily planted. Bag water never goes into the tank.

White spot is my biggest concern. It is endemic in the fish trade, both fish for food and ornamentals. Fish may not show signs but could be in gills. A lot of fish shops dose their stock up to their eyes in meds. but go from tank to tank with wet hands. (including plant tanks). Zero bio security. Many also spread the myth about dormant_ Ich._ in the customers home tank so that the customer is made to feel guilty.

Plants go into a heated plant trough in the conservatory for three weeks. (or into the 20 gal holding tank)


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## Geoffrey Rea (5 Jan 2019)

Thanks Oldguy.

The human factors involved in transmission from tank to tank within a fish store are obvious if you hang around long enough and watch.



Oldguy said:


> Now very selective about buying fish and judge the whole stock in the shop.




Recently did a tour of six of the lfs’s in my area on a day off as I was looking for stock. All of them had fish with ich on display and up for sale. Not saying this was deliberate, but glaringly obvious if you bother to observe for a minute or two. I did mention this to each store, most would just take that particular species off sale when realistically that entire section of display tanks shares water.


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## Geoffrey Rea (5 Jan 2019)

Not trying to demonise the fish shop market either. 



PARAGUAY said:


> I dont know how many shops have quarantine tanks these days but a few years ago  a customer was asking about why the shop hadnt got a certain fish in the shop. The ownwr/staff explained they was having difficulty puting them on sale not getting them out of quarantine even though other shops had them for sale at which point he invited about 3 of us in the back were he had as many quarantine tanks as display tanks,it was sort of a light bulb moment fo me



As Paraguay highlighted, shops would end up with as many quarantine tanks as display tanks if they went down this road....And also out of business I should imagine as this method is not scalable or profitable compared to large scale treatment dosing.


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## dw1305 (5 Jan 2019)

Hi all, 





Geoffrey Rea said:


> Four to six weeks is generally what I’ve heard and up to this day it hasn’t been based on the life cycle of a parasite, disease etc... Just popular consciousness maybe?


I didn't originally use such a long period, but about ten years ago I acquired a female _Apistogramma_ "Blue-Steel", and she <"brought a flubendazole resistant _Camallanus_"> infection with her, which only showed once she was in the tank.

cheers Darrel


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## tam (5 Jan 2019)

My concern with preventatives is judging what is safe and effective. If I want to worm my dog I get a pack specific to my dogs age/size with full details of ingredients and datasheets, it been scientifically tested and adverse reactions are centrally recorded. I can check online for reviews but more importantly ask my vets recommendation on what's effective. 

With fish, picking a treatment is a lot more based on anecdotal recommendations, we're talking about hundreds of species that can react differently and the environmental conditions play a part in the effectiveness. I'm not confident in what to give that's both effective and definitely not harmful so I err on the side of only treating when there is a visible issue.


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## Geoffrey Rea (5 Jan 2019)

That is a bummer Darrel. Did anything else in the tank survive? My understanding of camallanus is they are a real nightmare once they’re in.


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## roadmaster (5 Jan 2019)

I normally try and source medicated foods for new fishes to help clear possible parasites/ worms.Other than that,I just quarantine and observe till I can't stand it no more and plop them in display tank.


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## dw1305 (5 Jan 2019)

Hi all,





Geoffrey Rea said:


> Did anything else in the tank survive?


The _Otocinclus _did, along with some of the Black-neon Tetra, but they never spawned again.

cheers Darrel


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## Geoffrey Rea (5 Jan 2019)

tam said:


> With fish, picking a treatment is a lot more based on anecdotal recommendations, we're talking about hundreds of species that can react differently and the environmental conditions play a part in the effectiveness. I'm not confident in what to give that's both effective and definitely not harmful so I err on the side of only treating when there is a visible issue.



It’s each to their own really when it comes to concerns then Tam. Depends on individual experience I suppose. That’s why I started this thread so others could share their experiences as I’ve found a lack of consensus surrounding what quarantine actually consisted of according to people within the hobby.

For example, ich medications containing formaldehyde and malachite green oxalate are given at a toxicity that is known to be fatal to certain parasites. Is it problematic to the fish we put in these same concentrations during treatment? Highly probable in the long term.

http://www.vri.cz/docs/vetmed/52-12-527.pdf

The above review article from Veterinarni Medicina highlights the affect of malachite green in carp and trout. Section 3.3. Accumulation and persistence in treated fish and section 4.2. Fish treatment – treatment of ichthyophthiriosis and fungal infections are most pertinent.

It’s deciding between long and short term risk in my mind. I’ve lost the majority of fish in a main aquarium to ich before despite a watchful waiting period of four weeks before introducing them. The ich was travelling with these fish and didn’t present itself in any way that I picked up at that time. It certainly makes me consider treating fish in quarantine before introducing them as any long term risk is outweighed by the more immediate risk of wide spread fatality.


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## Geoffrey Rea (5 Jan 2019)

roadmaster said:


> Other than that,I just quarantine and observe till I can't stand it no more and plop them in display tank.





Yeah understand that feeling all too well...


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## tam (5 Jan 2019)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> It’s deciding between long and short term risk in my mind. I’ve lost the majority of fish in a main aquarium to ich before despite a watchful waiting period of four weeks before introducing them. The ich was travelling with these fish and didn’t present itself in any way that I picked up at that time. It certainly makes me consider treating fish in quarantine before introducing them as any long term risk is outweighed by the more immediate risk of wide spread fatality.



It's difficult. I also wonder would a preventative course have prevented it? I've treated ich where you can see it's there and had to run through twice to get rid. Which makes me think, I could do a preventative course, then assume I'm clear and still introduce it. I imagine if it was a hardy enough strain you lost the majority of fish then once through in quarantine might not have been enough. There are so many variables it's hard to way up the risks.


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## Geoffrey Rea (5 Jan 2019)

Chances are the fish we buy have already been treated for ich, internal parasites and/or fungus prior to them being purchased anyway. A moral argument as to whether fish should be exposed to such treatments is kind of moot if this is true.


The ‘hardy strain’ argument doesn’t sit well with me either unless someone in a lab, trained in identifying parasitic types can, to the best of their abilities, confirm the identity of a known resistant strain. (Not likely to happen, but better chance of it happening on UKAPS forums).


Also, it’s highly more probable that people don’t fully understand the desired environment for the species of fish they keep, leading to stress for that species once moved to a main aquarium.


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## Geoffrey Rea (6 Jan 2019)

An example being people keeping CPD’s or green neons and saying they’re shy. Sure being shy is a natural behaviour, but in response to feeling threatened. Having a fishes sympathetic nervous system constantly being stimulated will only lead to health issues.

In my limited experience I’ve found that placing hatchetfish (or other surface dwellers) to occupy higher up in the water column completely changes behaviour between species. You can watch how CPD’s or green neons react to the cues of the hatchetfish, darting for cover when the hatchetfish engage fast twitch muscles to jerk in response to something that’s bothered them. Equally swimming confidently around the water column when the hatchetfish sit there bobbing up and down at the surface. Conversely hatchetfish seem to love things that interrupt flow like wood sticking out through the surface, creating an eddy in the current to sit in and wait for food to come to them increasing alertness when others look like they’re searching for food. Adding a floating plant like frogbit doesn’t seem to create the same behaviours. It’s not about cover but relationship in my humble opinion.


Now compare introducing CPD’s or green neons to a tank like above or into a Iwagumi. To me that’s the tipping point and a key variable.  


Getting back on topic.... treating fish could get them ‘clear of problems’ but plunging them into an undesirable environment could just set the whole process right back, stressing them and making them vulnerable.


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## alto (6 Jan 2019)

tam said:


> With fish, picking a treatment is a lot more based on anecdotal recommendations, we're talking about hundreds of species that can react differently and the environmental conditions play a part in the effectiveness. I'm not confident in what to give that's both effective and definitely not harmful so I err on the side of only treating when there is a visible issue.


There is loads of ornamental fish data but it tends to be buried in rather technical tomes (limited publications designed for veterinary programs, even most libraries are uninterested in investing) or non-open online research groups/journals

Noga’s book is much more affordable now
*Fish Disease: Diagnosis and Treatment, 2nd Edition*
Edward J. Noga
(I’ve tried to encourage my local library to replace their (surprisingly useless) current book selection with this (more technical) book and the Manual Of Fish Health (general readership) 

Beginning with the very approachable Manual of Fish Health, then reading through the Fish Health & Aquaculture Articles available through University of Florida EDIS extension (and other American universities, though some only host UofF articles) will give a good background (included are basics of treating fish with antibiotics etc and what steps should be taken to minimize stress and maximize medication efficacy)


BUT

many of the proven medications are unavailable to hobby fish keepers - either through cost or regulations - and very few veterinary clinics are set up to handle ornamental fish enquires
Effective treatment of fish illness often depends on identification of the dominant pathogen (fish do secondary infections like nobody’s business ) and at the stage when it’s early enough for effective treatment

Hobby fish keepers usually only really notice (ie begin active research) for fish illness after fish are no longer eating - at which point the disease is well advanced - or visible lesions/abnormalities are seen on fish fins/skin (these are often secondary infections)

Stress dramatically suppresses fish immune system (well documented if you want to go digging ) and pathogens that are part of their “normal flora” can transition very quickly to disease states
(As I recall the Manual of Fish Health has a decent chapter on fish stressors)

When selecting suitable online articles for treating fish, I suggest leaning towards those dealing with Zebra danios rather than Channel Catfish  (or salmonids  )

Preventative treatments for common pathogens such as ich, tend to be reasonable treatments rather than unnecessary stress - again look at recent articles discussing ich prevalence on (ornamental) fish production farms of even wild caught South American fish species, then add in the stress of shipping & (possible multiple) temporary holding stations 
(again there is data for pathogens present at the start of the journey, and then pathogens present at journey’s end)

Some wild caught fish species react adversely to medications, especially bath treatments, again there are alternate protocols discussions (trials)


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## alto (6 Jan 2019)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> That’s why I started this thread so others could share their experiences as I’ve found a lack of consensus surrounding what quarantine actually consisted of according to people within the hobby.


4-6 weeks minimum
It really depends upon suspected or observed pathogens, fish condition etc, etc
Many texts will recommend 8 -12 weeks as more suitable
One American angelfish breeder did 3 month quarantines (with suitable medications for wild fish, and microscopic examinations), and still managed to introduce some nasty surprises into breeding stock
Now his Bio Security is much stricter


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## Geoffrey Rea (6 Jan 2019)

Thank you for your input Alto.

Lot’s of food for thought.

Unfortunately/fortunately I have access to online libraries through university. This means instead of doing what I should be doing, I shall probably go digging for research articles/peer reviewed journals on experiments conducted on Zebra Danios this week


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## sciencefiction (6 Jan 2019)

In my humble experience when getting new fish the most important thing is for them to be placed in a suitable low stress environment. Low stress means everything, from perfect water quality, size tank, suitable tank mates(r(preferably none), high quality fish food, well fed fish with the appropriate water changes to compensate, etc..I normally keep them in quarantine 2 to 3 months in quarantine..to have enough time for them to settle really well so a second move isn't stressful. It is not unusual for me to do daily water changes for that period of time...This method has worked really well for me and I truly believe in daily water changes for newly bought fish...Fish tanks are full of germs, pathogenic and not pathogenic. It's all about boosting the fish's immune system which deals with them. Transported fish, fish in crowded LFS tanks with hands chasing fish all the time or kids pointing at the glass, etc... can be very stressed...

If one is to treat with anything, I recommend anti-parasitic meds such as flubendazole, as long as there are no snails/shrimp in the same tank. Fish can carry parasites without outward signs and these can be a trigger for secondary diseases once the fish is exposed to stress. I would now routinely treat new fish with flubendazole. If I don't quarantine, I'd treat the "display" tank with flubendazole when the new fish are added. I wouldn't treat with anything else routinely but I know flubendazole is very safe.

And third, but not last, pick your fish properly. I'd sometimes delay the purchase by a couple of weeks to check if the fish is still fine in the shop itself. If I am to buy straight away, I'd spend quite a bit observing them in the shop. My LFS normally also tells me how long they've been there so I get an idea whether to wait or not. They're honest that way, whether they got the fish the day before or two months prior.  I have also deliberately gotten sick fish but I had the time and the spare tank to treat them and this can be quite a journey time wise, and money spent on meds, without guaranteed success. It is a very rewarding experience though because if you succeed, you give that fish a chance to live a long and normal life which it certainly wouldn't have gotten otherwise, and you develop a special relationship with that fish...

With the exception of highly contagious deadly diseases, I don't believe in bio-security for fish and I also don't believe in bio-security for humans either.  Two same people can be exposed to the same thing and the one with the low immune system is the only one that will develop the sickness. Same goes for fish.Sickly people and sickly fish are individuals with stressed immune system. Eat bad, live bad, out of your own choice or not, and the diseases will follow early or later...The journey of having healthy fish is never over, regardless of the time one has had the fish for....One needs to provide a healthy lifestyle...


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## PARAGUAY (7 Jan 2019)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> Not trying to demonise the fish shop market either.
> 
> 
> 
> As Paraguay highlighted, shops would end up with as many quarantine tanks as display tanks if they went down this road....And also out of business I should imagine as this method is not scalable or profitable compared to large scale treatment dosing.


Well a lot of shops,although retail is tough, got through on recommendation and the fact they were well run by enthusiastic fishkeepers of course there is the added competion of the internet these days ,so its a hard sell for them now to compete on items what can be delivered cheaply next day, councils were more reasonable in the day with grants and rates


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## alto (7 Jan 2019)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> Unfortunately/fortunately I have access to online libraries through university. This means instead of doing what I should be doing, I shall probably go digging for research articles/peer reviewed journals on experiments conducted on Zebra Danios this week



You should be able to find discus and angelfish articles as well
- if you use specific disease/pathogen as Search term, that should pull up more specific articles 

“zebra danio” “zebra fish” 
or it’s common Latin names _Brachydanio rerio, B frankei,_ _Danio rerio_ 
will likely put you in way deep   

Veterinary research articles often require a log in, depending upon country/associations


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## Geoffrey Rea (7 Jan 2019)

When I was a kid I used to get taken along by my father when he bought fish. This was either some small store off the beaten track or someone’s private fish room, usually a converted garage or something similar. The one part that sticks in my mind is just how passionate these breeders/ shop keepers were.


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## Geoffrey Rea (7 Jan 2019)

alto said:


> You should be able to find discus and angelfish articles as well
> - if you use specific disease/pathogen as Search term, that should pull up more specific articles
> 
> “zebra danio” “zebra fish”
> ...



Time for a deep dive then Alto. Knowledge awaits!


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## Geoffrey Rea (7 Jan 2019)

alto said:


> *Fish Disease: Diagnosis and Treatment, 2nd Edition*
> Edward J. Noga



@alto This book by Noga retails at about £25 paperback. Does that sound about right?


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## alto (7 Jan 2019)

No idea, I’ve only seen a hardcover edition (& at that time it retailed ~$400 USD)

Not sure how the photo plates would show in a reduced cost paperback edition

Obviously current journal etc articles will be specialized, Noga is basic foundation

You should be able to find some decent summary articles ... then wend your way through the extensive references for followup reading


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## DAltonn (21 Oct 2022)

I'm here to give you some helpful tips for quarantining plant with alum fumigation. Dissolve 1-3 tablespoons of aluminum sulfate into a gallon of water (room temperature). The amount of alum will depend on the sensitivity of your plant. Soak the plant for at least 3 hours if you use more alum. Soak it for three days if you used one tablespoon of alum or less.


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## DogTailRed2 (21 Oct 2022)

I have a quarantine tank and all new fish go in this tank for two weeks.
My rationale is protection of the main tank but more importantly easier to treat a small volume of water.


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## DAltonn (6 Nov 2022)

DAltonn said:


> I'm here to give you some helpful tips for quarantining plant with alum fumigation. Dissolve 1-3 tablespoons of aluminum sulfate into a gallon of water (room temperature). The amount of alum will depend on the sensitivity of your plant. Soak the plant for at least 3 hours if you use more alum. Soak it for three days if you used one tablespoon of alum or less.


Quarantining the aquarium plants is not an option but rather a necessity. Knowing how to quarantine aquarium plants may save your fish and other plants from diseases. It will also keep your tank and its habitats clean and healthy.


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## Aqua360 (6 Nov 2022)

I don't use quarantine tanks tbh as I don't keep many fish now, but when I do, I treat them with praziquantel for parasites just in case


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## Hanuman (7 Nov 2022)

@Geoffrey Rea This is an old thread but I thought I'd give my input coming from a country that actually produces fish in masses contrary to countries that retail them in smaller retail shops like in certain countries in Europe.
In Thailand there is this market called the JJ market (Chatchuchak market) which is a wholesale/retail market for animals and fish. This is a regional/international hub for fish trade. They have an extensive amount of fish shops many of which are specialized in a certain category of fish. It is my understanding that the majority of these shops do preventive treatments before selling the fish. You can often see several tanks in their shops with this yellow colored water where all fish get treated before being sold. I've had some conversations in the past with some of the owners of these shops and some actually even have secondary places where they keep fish before displaying them in order to treat them.
In my case, and the case of many people I know here, we never quarantine fish as I know for a fact that the place where I buy them have already treated the fish for most known fish diseases. I see no point in stressing the fish any further.


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## erwin123 (7 Nov 2022)

Yes, most of the better fish shops do quarantine their fish... you can see their quarantine tanks in the shop with the 'not for sale - under quarantine' sign.
I would run an in-tank UV for a few days after introducing new fish....


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