# Giant Vallis - in Flower!



## Martin Fletcher (17 Apr 2013)

Just noticed something very satisfying in the new forthcoming Discus tank - my Giant Vallis ( Vallisneria gigantea) is in flower!!  

A white flower on the surface along with a couple more buds. Funny thing is since transferring it from the community tank a few weeks ago there has been some die back and it's not currently looking at it's best.

OK - hands up all those that didn't know that Vallis flowers?

It puts out a very fast growing stem from the centre of the plant (last photo) with a white flower at the surface. The flowers that reach the surface are female and the male flowers develop lower down near the base of the plant. Pollination is thought to be via water movement.

Chuffed!


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## jojouk (17 Apr 2013)

Had no idea!


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## Henry (17 Apr 2013)

These look identical to Sagittaria subulata flowers. I'm absolutely insistent that they are the same species!


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## Martin Fletcher (17 Apr 2013)

Henry said:


> These look identical to Sagittaria subulata flowers. I'm absolutely insistent that they are the same species!


 
lol - I had a thick forest of 'Sag' in my other tank and had to tear it all out as fish were getting lost in it, But know what you mean it's just like Vallis, only not quite as tall!


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## Manrock (19 Apr 2013)

Mine does the same every couple of months. It will flower for weeks at a time!


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## dw1305 (19 Apr 2013)

Hi all,
Interesting thread and nice flower. 





Henry said:


> Sagittaria subulata


I'm not sure it is _Vallisneria_ either, both it and _Sagittaria_ would have 3 petalled flowers, but I think the petals on _Vallisneria_ are really small, and one is often missing all together.

Also it looks like Martin's flower has stamens, and in _Vallisneria_ it is an all female flower ("pistillate") that emerges emeresed, the male flower is separate and releases its pollen under water.

Sorry it is an awful drawing, but it was the best image I could find.





cheers Darrel


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## Martin Fletcher (19 Apr 2013)

Very interesting Darrel, I ended up with 5x  3 petal flowers on the surface but no male flowers lower down and there are not any seed pods developing, nor is the flower stem coiled.

The thing is then, if it's not Vallisneria gigantea or Vallisneria - what is it?  The tank is 2 ft deep to give an idea of how long it's grown.Sagittaria_, w_hilst it does look very similar and can grow to about 5 inches certainly doesn't grow this tall - does it?  It's not a good photo because of the reflections but you can see the plants and the flower stems at the top.

You have certainly got me wondering now!

Martin


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## Henry (19 Apr 2013)

This is one of my tanks that is planted almost exclusively with Sagittaria subulata. Growth height varies massively. I find it tends to be older plants that put out the taller leaves.


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## Martin Fletcher (19 Apr 2013)

Hi Henry, well they have certainly grown taller in there - Looks great, always liked the 'jungle' look!


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## Henry (19 Apr 2013)

I find neglect is the best method of achieving it  The killifish love it in there. It's a super low maintenance tank; it doesn't even have a filter!


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## Martin Fletcher (19 Apr 2013)

Excellent - I thought about Killifish a while back but decided to go with Discus in the end. I know if you have a really well planted tank they can take the part of a filter but obviously it depends on the bio load of the chosen fish.


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## dw1305 (20 Apr 2013)

Hi all


Martin Fletcher said:


> The thing is then, if it's not Vallisneria gigantea or Vallisneria - what is it?


With the 3 petals it must be another member of the Hydrocharitaceae (_Vallisneria, Limnobium_) or Alismataceae (_Sagittaria, Echinodorus_ etc). _ Sagittaria subulata_ would still be my guess. <http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f24/sagittaria-subulata-dwarf-sag-flowering-sequence-new-pic-93769.html>.

cheers Darrel


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## Martin Fletcher (20 Apr 2013)

Thanks Darrel, It's certainly given me something to think about but I didn't realise that _Sagittaria subulata _can grow that tall, so I suspect you may well be right. Thanks for the expert advice.


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## Manrock (21 Apr 2013)

Now you have got me thinking too, as mine seems identical to Martin's. I was pretty sure I never added any vallis to my set-up, although I did have some short (dwarf) type sag in there. I did just leave it for about a year (jungle look) and when I finally did a rescape I had loads of really tall 'vallis' - it's about 2 foot tall in places! Can this really be mature sag or did some vallis get into my tank hidden amongst some other plants?


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## GHNelson (21 Apr 2013)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all
> 
> With the 3 petals it must be another member of the Hydrocharitaceae (_Vallisneria, Limnobium_) or Alismataceae (_Sagittaria, Echinodorus_ etc). _ Sagittaria subulata_ would still be my guess. <http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f24/sagittaria-subulata-dwarf-sag-flowering-sequence-new-pic-93769.html>.
> 
> cheers Darrel


I go with Darrel on this one...Sag subulata can grow to different sizes in various tank set-ups.
Even lighting can determine how compact it grows.
When i had this plant in a mature non Co2 tank it flowered a few times.....flower was same as pictured.
Cheers
hoggie


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## Martin Fletcher (21 Apr 2013)

Manrock said:


> Now you have got me thinking too, as mine seems identical to Martin's. I was pretty sure I never added any vallis to my set-up, although I did have some short (dwarf) type sag in there. I did just leave it for about a year (jungle look) and when I finally did a rescape I had loads of really tall 'vallis' - it's about 2 foot tall in places! Can this really be mature sag or did some vallis get into my tank hidden amongst some other plants?


 
You see, thats exactly what I mean - mine is almost 2 ft tall, the tank is 2ft deep but of course theres a few inches of substrate, so nearly 2ft. So just how does one decide what it actually is, is it Sag gone wild or is it Vallis, I always assumed it was Giant Vallis and I'm pretty sure thats what it wa sold as although it's a long time now since I bought plants.


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## Martin Fletcher (21 Apr 2013)

hogan53 said:


> I go with Darrel on this one...Sag subulata can grow to different sizes in various tank set-ups.
> Even lighting can determine how compact it grows.
> When i had this plant in a mature non Co2 tank it flowered a few times.....flower was same as pictured.
> Cheers
> hoggie


 
I think we are coming to this conclusion but it would be good to know how we can make a positive ID, I finished up with 5 flowers coming off the top of the stalk in a branch, but no male flowers which I believe should appear at a lower level.


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## GHNelson (21 Apr 2013)

Hi
Gaint Vallis has about a thumb width wide leaf when fully grown.
hoggie


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## Martin Fletcher (21 Apr 2013)

Now I know for the sure the stuff thats covering the foreground in this photo is Sag, (taken in January) it all grew in a matter of weeks from 5 small pieces that someone gave me - BUT on the left of the photo you can see some of the Giant Vallis that I transferred into the Discus tank which are the ones that flowered, now this was planted long before I got the Sag. Shortly after this photo was taken I ripped all the Sag out to get the sandy beach back for the Corys. Don't worry though, it all went to good homes.


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## Martin Fletcher (21 Apr 2013)

hogan53 said:


> Hi
> Gaint Vallis has about a thumb width wide leaf when fully grown.
> hoggie


 
Ah right, well this is only about half a thumb, at the most so I think we can rule out Giant Vallis then - that narrows it down now to tall Vallis or Sag subulata growing like mad!
Are we getting somewhere now???


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## GHNelson (21 Apr 2013)

Have a look here.....Tropica Aquarium Plants - Vallisneria 
Plant Details
Plant Details
hoggie


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## Ravenswing (21 Apr 2013)

Every time you can see the mid rib, wich can be seen pics above, the plant can`t belong to genus _Vallisneria _. The margin of vallis is slightly serrated, you can feel it but not see without magnifying glass. The leaf of vallis is totally flat and smooth when touched. One possibility to confuse is also _Helanthium_ `Angustifolium` ( from _Alismataceae-_family*)* , its leaf is flat, feels a bit "plastic like" and is slightly rough and rigid, where _Sagittaria_ is smooth and soft (=not so rigid). The leaf of _Sagittaria subulata_ is lenticular when cut half. Since _H_ `Angustifolium`is quite rare in our hobby, I always bet for _Sagittaria _when this "how to differentiate" question is asked.

Briefly:

_Vallisneria_: smooth leaf, margin serrated, no mid rib, loose way of growing, flat when cut half
_Sagittaria (subulata)_: smooth, margin entire, mid rib, lenticular when cut half
_Helanthium_ (`Angustifolium`) bit rough, feels like "plastic", mid rib, slightly rigid, margin entire, flat when cut half

Hope this helps. I have had similar problems when I tried to find H `Angustifolium` (never succeeded), but got kind help from Mr Falck who knows (current and past) _Alismataceae-_family pretty well I think. I hope I can remember right all details of each and every plant! I made precise notes when talking to him, but unfortunately cant find them right now.

Cheers, Maria


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## Martin Fletcher (21 Apr 2013)

OK, thanks for that Maria, using those pointers I have just cut a piece off and I can confirm it's got a centre rib and is quite smooth. The fact it's got a centre rib confirms it's not Vallis and the fact it's smooth and not rough tells me it's not H. Angustifolium - Then when I looked at the link above posted by Hoggie I found this under Sagittaria subulata - so I reckon that pretty much identifies it as Sag

_This plant may cause problems because in certain conditions it suddenly grows to a height of 50 cm when it grows older. But if it is then moved into the background it may become low again. I*n the aquarium it sometimes sends a long flower stem to the surface, and small white flowers unfold just above the water surface. *_

Agreed?


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## GHNelson (21 Apr 2013)

_Helanthium  `Angustifolium_
_Ive also had this plant very rough leaf structure like sand paper._
_Cheers_
_hoggie_


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## Martin Fletcher (21 Apr 2013)

hogan53 said:


> _Helanthium `Angustifolium_
> _Ive also had this plant very rough leaf structure like sand paper._
> _Cheers_
> _hoggie_


 
Yes, when I read Marias descriptions I started to think that maybe thats what I've got, until I felt how smooth it was so that was out! Thanks Hoggie.

So we still looking at it being Sagittaria subulata


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## GHNelson (21 Apr 2013)

Yes mate


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## Martin Fletcher (21 Apr 2013)

Agreed!


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