# New "shallow" high tech planted setup



## James Flexton (28 Jul 2014)

Hi All,

i am expecting delivery of my new tank in a couple of weeks and as im starting this tank from scratch i want to make sure i buy the best possible equipment i can without spending ADA type money.

im sure there are a lot of people asking the same questions on here but if i can list what i have shortlisted please can any of you comment on the quality or products / suitability for the tank.

tank 100x40x30 (30 is the height) optiwhite float glass, braceless

substrate
Elos Terra Zero powder 14.60 EURO
http://www.elos.eu/productlines/freshwater/bottomsystem~42/terrazero~208.html#.U9YaWPldV8E
Elos bottom material 5L 24.65 EURO
http://www.elos.eu/productlines/freshwater/substratinaturali~39/bottommineral~175.html#.U9ZsufldV8F
Elos Terra Black 9L small 51.30 EURO
http://www.elos.eu/productlines/freshwater/substratinaturali~39/terrablack~176.html#.U9Zsy_ldV8F
Total cost substrate 90.55 EURO (£71.59)


CO2 (will be usinf 2kg FE)
professional dual stage reg with solenoid with precision needle valve £69.99
http://www.co2art.co.uk/collections...l-stage-regulator-and-solenoid-magnetic-valve
Diffuser not sure of, ive used rhinox glass diffusers before,  ive seen inline diffusers and not sure how effective they are. it would be nice to keep another thing out of the tank.
http://www.co2art.co.uk/collections...ine-co2-atomizer-diffuser-system-16-22mm-hose

Lily pipes - £38.99
http://www.co2art.co.uk/collections...-made-glass-aquarium-lily-pipes-set-o17-16-22

Lighting
im wavering between led and t5.
either arcadia OT5 2x39W T5 - £172.54
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Arcadia-O...3?pt=UK_Pet_Supplies_Fish&hash=item461b7cdcbb
or these led lights (LED luminaires are £400 ish - over budget)
13W - £159.99
http://www.co2art.co.uk/collections...-13w-led-for-nano-planted-tank-aquarium-6500k
20W - £169.99
http://www.co2art.co.uk/collections...d-for-planted-tank-aquarium-40cm-height-6500k
25W - £179.99
http://www.co2art.co.uk/collections...power-25w-led-for-planted-tank-aquarium-6500k

there's not much in it in price between the 13/20/25W so not sure what would be best for the tank. i want it bright and good plant growth (noted that co2 is more important!) my hesitation is that its a circular unit so will surely get more growth in the centre of the tank and less at the sides. is this true? does anyone have any experience of these?

so thats the kit i'm looking at. any thoughts or comments appreciated.

also as a side note i will need a filter but not researched yet. bearing in mind i will need a good water flow to distribute co2 effectivley what is the usual route regarding filters. 10x turnover ive read is optimal so are you lot using a big external or two smaller units. ive never seen a tank with more than one lily pipe fitted to i assume its one big external you lot go for.
if anyone would care to suggest a suitable filter (without costing the earth) id appreciate it.

to say things have changed since my last proper planted tank 6 or 7 years ago is an understatement. i remember looking for 4-5 WPG, 4x turnover, ei dosing etc..

naturally i will do another journal for this new tank and keep it up dated from initial build through to maturity. its going to be an interesting journey...


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## BigTom (28 Jul 2014)

I don't really know anything about high tech, but you're only getting an inch of substrate for your £71.59. You might want some more.


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## Alje (28 Jul 2014)

Can I suggest glass inlet/outlet and spraybars from 'Aquarium plant food UK'

http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/tools-glass/cascade-glassware.html

Also 10% discount for UKAPS members

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/ukaps-discount.14650/


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## pepedopolous (28 Jul 2014)

James Flexton said:


> i want to make sure i buy the best possible equipment i can without spending ADA type money.


So don't buy Elos then. I think they make some great products but they are more expensive than ADA- the Gucci of aquariums!

I recommend the CO2art reg however...

P


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## EnderUK (28 Jul 2014)

I don't know about the mechano set lights, would think you would need a few on a tank that length. You could get an Classica Stretch 120cm and hang it. That or you could get 3-4 of the Wavepoint 6500K Clamp Lamp - 12".

How about looking a sera 1000 reactor rather than the diffuser?


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## James Flexton (28 Jul 2014)

Elos came in a lot cheaper than Ada when using powersand and aqua soil combo with base layer powder. I think I priced it up at about £250 for the quantity I'd need. 
I forgot to add in 2 bags of terra black so that's about £120 ish. Still half price of Ada. Thanks for pointing out I need more than one bag

Thanks for links to glass wear alje but I'm pretty sure I want lily pipes rather than spray bars. 

Thanks for recommending reg pepedopolous. Have you used it then? I've had 5 different regs over the years and had problems with every one of them. Mostly due to leaking or solenoids exploding

Thanks for lighting suggestions enderuk. I'll look into those as well


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## James O (28 Jul 2014)

For co2 I think you'd need an external diffusor/reactor.  30cm minus substrate doesn't buy you a lot of time for diffusion in the tank (especially in a long tank like yours)


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## pepedopolous (28 Jul 2014)

James Flexton said:


> Thanks for recommending reg pepedopolous. Have you used it then? I've had 5 different regs over the years and had problems with every one of them. Mostly due to leaking or solenoids exploding



I'm not using it in a running setup but will be starting it soon. I've only had one other reg. from the now defunct lunapets but with the smc needle valve this is much better. I tested the co2art reg on a bottle which was pretty much empty and wouldn't work on my original reg. It worked perfectly which is testament to the two stages. The BMV solenoid is super. I have one with my original lunapets reg. 3 years no probs with heat or leaks. TBH many CO2 issues can be due to bad check valves.

Regarding the ADA vs Elos prices you don't need any extra substrate additives. If you feel like it, you could use some pumice or lava rock to build-up the height. However, to pay so much for top-brand additives is not worth it. Bona fide homeopathic snake oil.

For CO2 diffusion, have a look at the Up atomisers, also available from CO2art. If you're daring, put one on the filter inlet.

P


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## Iain Sutherland (28 Jul 2014)

Skip the base powders they are basically snake oil and the Amazonia powder gets muddy so unless you want fine detailing it's not money well spent. 
3 or 4 bags of Amazonia is all you'd need.


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## James Flexton (28 Jul 2014)

I do want it fine, I've used eco complete on my 40 and 100 gallon tanks and it's a bit too gravel like. This tank is going to be using very small plants like Hc etc so want a fine grain substrate. Amazonia powder is £50 a bag and after talking to james at green machine he said I'd need a bag of powersand beneath it so that's another £73 so that's 223. Hence why I'm looking at elos..??? Confused now. I don't want to scrimp on substrate quality but also don't want to spend a fortune on er mud 

James o, great point re height of tank. I hadn't thought of that you are right ceramic in tank diffuser won't work well at all. 

Pepedopolous, all my regs have leaked around either the main thread to the fe or out of the stalk the gauges are sitting on. I've just read somewhere that you shouldn't over tighten them. Is this true. I have always added ptfe tape and tightened till my knuckles turn blue.  
I'll get that reg then. Looks good and if others have got it I'd feel better. Rather than my last one I ebay'd from Malaysia broke in a week!


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## Iain Sutherland (28 Jul 2014)

Amazonia is fairly fine anyway, the powder is nice to look at but it will ruin the substrate for a second use.  Power sand isn't a must, really only beneficial in deep substrate banking and again makes reusing the substrate a total pain. I certainly wouldn't pay £73 for some! Alfagrog is basically the same thing if you want a tall bank.
Your plants will grow in inert gravel, sure Amazonia has benefits but it's the co2 that makes or breaks a tank. 

In tank diffusers work fine in shallow tanks but a reactor will likely be less of a headache.

Don't over tighten, ptfe and slightly more than finger tight, the gas pressure does the work for you


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## pepedopolous (28 Jul 2014)

Seriously, you might as well take the money you would spend on powersand and burn it. Powersand is how ADA dealers make a quick buck. Even Amano says it is not needed.

I've never used pfte tape but if you search this forum I think the consensus is that you shouldn't use it to connect the reg. to the tank. I think it's something to do with small pieces of tape breaking loose...


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## Iain Sutherland (28 Jul 2014)

Sorry, yes don't use ptfe joining to the tank.


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## James Flexton (28 Jul 2014)

Thanks guys, may explain countless headaches I've had ha ha.


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## parotet (29 Jul 2014)

Hi James

Co2art reg+solenoid+SMC needle valve is definitely a good option. I have this combination (with an inline atomizer) and I am very happy.
I've seen there is an interesting discussion around substrates and powders... but my worries for a 140 cm shallow high tech tank would be the flow and filtering system. On the one hand and as mentioned before, Co2 diffusion on line is probably the only option (I think there is no water column enough for other diffuser devices inside the tank). On the other hand you will need a good filter to move all this water and CO2 along 140 cm (in a high tech I can well imagine quite a lot of plants making your life imposible). Not sure if a powerful filter with a single lily pipe would blow the substrate (with 3-4 cm of substrate and the outlet a few cm under the water... the outlet would work on just 20 cm of water column). Maybe two medium filters with two spraybars? Or two medium filters with nano pipes looking towards the front glass? In that case CO2 in one of them or in both?
You are probably much more experince but for me this is the challenge!

Jordi


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## EnderUK (29 Jul 2014)

blasting grit + EI. Job done.


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## James Flexton (29 Jul 2014)

parotet said:


> Hi James
> 
> Co2art reg+solenoid+SMC needle valve is definitely a good option. I have this combination (with an inline atomizer) and I am very happy.
> I've seen there is an interesting discussion around substrates and powders... but my worries for a 140 cm shallow high tech tank would be the flow and filtering system. On the one hand and as mentioned before, Co2 diffusion on line is probably the only option (I think there is no water column enough for other diffuser devices inside the tank). On the other hand you will need a good filter to move all this water and CO2 along 140 cm (in a high tech I can well imagine quite a lot of plants making your life imposible). Not sure if a powerful filter with a single lily pipe would blow the substrate (with 3-4 cm of substrate and the outlet a few cm under the water... the outlet would work on just 20 cm of water column). Maybe two medium filters with two spraybars? Or two medium filters with nano pipes looking towards the front glass? In that case CO2 in one of them or in both?
> ...



thanks Jordi,

you are right the issue is going to be the water circulation across the whole tank. i am planning on using mainly carpeting plants though and mosses etc, little if any stem plants. if i hardscape correctly i will have a clear run of open water around the whole tank with some rocks breaking the water and emersed plants growing up them. i am torn as to the best options for filtration. ideally i want one filter, removing the need for additional inlets and outlets in the tank, dual co2 reactors etc... so i suppose the answer is a powerful filter with a lilypipe directing the flow around the tank in a horizontal circular flow pattern rather than vertical loop pattern as you would usually aim for. 



EnderUK said:


> blasting grit + EI. Job done.



eh? youve lost me sorry lol


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## EnderUK (29 Jul 2014)

You'll get 25kg of black blasting grit for about £20, if you're dosing to EI you don't have to spend £70. If you really want some rich substrate buy a bag of line free top soil, sieve out all the big bits and put about 10mm below the blasting grit

Sent from my Radar C110e using Tapatalk


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## foxfish (29 Jul 2014)

There are plenty of opinions about substrate & I would not dispute any of them but I have my own opinions that might differ from some!

Personally I don't like using any sharp edges grains or anything that compacts, it might not matter but I feel that when starting a new tank, I like to stack the odds, as best I can, towards the plants future...

I like ADA because it has a high concentrate of nutrients, it is great for scaping undulating  slopes without collapsing & eventually forming a flat scape.
It is plant friendly to push the roots into without causing damage & allows easy growth for the plant roots to further push through.

If I were to use a sand I would look for river washed round grain sand without shell in it.

Just my own opinions of course but I have always had great success  with high CEC & AEC capacity soft grain substrates & not so great start ups using  inert hard substrates.
I think a lot depends or your ultimate goals & the overall look you want....


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## James Flexton (29 Jul 2014)

im not dosing EI in the old school sense, might use ADA ferts might go tropica tpn+ not sure. i will certainly use a nutrient rich substrate as the tank is in the office and fert addition will probably be a bit hit and miss. certainly not proper EI as i havent got time for all that messing about.

so if i went for just ADA amazonia would you lot suggest the normal one or the fine one. ive watched the greenmachine set up vid on crimson sky scape and the powder looks fantastic. although i have a habit of chopping and changing whole scapes every few months so if i mix layers of substrate that will end up a big mixed up mess.

so can i go with just ada amazonia powder or is that not advised? there will be some sizeable rocks in the scape protruding out of the water so i need something supportive that wont shift about too much. im not sure if just normal amazonia will look right.
hmm round in circles i go...

on the plus side as its an office tank i get the VAT back!!


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## James Flexton (29 Jul 2014)

on the filter front...
124L tank capacity, less substrate, rocks displacement etc probably around 100L actual water in tank. so 10x turnover means i need a filter turnover of 1000lph correct?

any suggestions as to the best options for the tank.


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## James Flexton (29 Jul 2014)

looking at Eheim 350T (1050lph) plus removed the need for thermometer in tank.
can i use that with an inline co2 reactor?
that filter is around £300 so other options around that price (or cheaper of course) are welcome....


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## Alje (29 Jul 2014)

Spraybars produce better distribution than lily pipes. Hopefully Ceg will be along soon to explain it better than I can


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## pepedopolous (29 Jul 2014)

Hi James,

I have the 350T- it's great but TBH I'm in two minds about whether any heater is necessary (unless you have some particularly sensitive livestock). The only problem I see without a heater is if your water taps output particularly cold water....

The other filters I can personally recommend are the JBL Cristalprofis. The way you can turn around the hose connectors is great if you have little cabinet space. I kinda miss that with the Eheim.

I'm not bashing everything ADA makes! Like a few others I'm sure, I think their Amazonia is worth it for many reasons, even if you do dose EI.


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## Iain Sutherland (29 Jul 2014)

pepedopolous said:


> The other filters I can personally recommend are the JBL Cristalprofis


great filters, id get a 1501 greenline then you have the option to turn it down rather than adding a powerhead if your lacking which you may be due to the length of the tank.


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## James Flexton (30 Jul 2014)

just looked at the 1501 and looks great and cheap too. the only issue is from what i can tell they all come with EU plugs and will need an adaptor. im not keen on that as its in the office and dont really want an adapted plug running 24/7


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## Iain Sutherland (30 Jul 2014)

Should come with uk plug, if not cut it off.


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## James Flexton (30 Jul 2014)

pepedopolous said:


> Hi James,
> 
> I have the 350T- it's great but TBH I'm in two minds about whether any heater is necessary (unless you have some particularly sensitive livestock). The only problem I see without a heater is if your water taps output particularly cold water....
> 
> ...


i will need a heater. my office has no running hot water, just a plumbed in boiler like a tea urn type thing. i use that for water changes but its a bit hit and miss what temperature i get.

ok so heres the dilema, i like the jbl 1501 greenline however the tank is shallow remember and wont have any stem plants if my planting vision stays the same as it is currently. if i get the Eheim 350T i wont have a heater in the tank. but the jbl is half the price at £149 for a more powerful filter (1400lph) but with no heater.

theres no point in me spending a lot of money on getting this tank to look great then chucking a dirty great heater in it to spoil the look. 

so is there any alternative ways to heat the tank if i use the JBL filter but dont want a heater in the tank. 

i dont know if there are any inline heaters or anything like that. bearing in mind i will be running inline co2 already on the outlet (or maybe inlet)

any thoughts on that people??


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## Iain Sutherland (30 Jul 2014)

Hydor eth300 heater. You could always step up to the 1901 to allow for loss of flow. But at 140cm long my bet is you'll end up with 2 filters or a powerhead.


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## James Flexton (30 Jul 2014)

Hang on a minute - im an idiot!! 

its not 140cm long its 101 cm long.

length 101
depth (front to back) 41
height 30

although hydor eth300 initially made me punch the air in joy at a solution i have another issue now.
i would have to go for the 1901 to account for flow loss and that filter will just about fit in my cabinet but i would have to cut holes in the sides of it to put the pipes through (angle would be too sharp if going out the back to the lily pipes at the sides.)

then the issue is the hydor could only be fitted to the tubes which are now in view on the outside of the cabinet to the side of the tank. and its er, massive and butt ugly lol.

so theory is good but falls down again.. hmmm 
good thought though, thanks for the input.


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## pepedopolous (30 Jul 2014)

OK if it is 'only' 101cm I reckon a powerful filter (350T) with a long spraybar might work.

The sexiest plastic I've ever got my hands on: - https://www.eheim.com/en_GB/products/accessories/installation_installationsSets_4004310

(Though you would need to buy extensions.)

I have a 350T on a 125 litre aquarium. So it's not exactly 10X turnover but then I have an Eheim surface skimmer as well which is maybe 200 l/h.


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## Iain Sutherland (30 Jul 2014)

1501 would be fine for 100cm.


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## James Flexton (30 Jul 2014)

hmm only issue is everything visible has to be glass. (just to be difficult - sorry!)
you can get glass spray bars but not sure how good they are - and as im inpatient and ordered the reg, bubble counter and inline reactor yesterday  i put lily pipes on the order as well.

ill see how i get on with the lily pipes and can always swop for spray bars later if needed.

the question really is which filter to get.

its looking more and more like the 350T is the best option for aesthetics. im trying really hard to have a tank that looks like the ones in professional pictures (where they remove all the kit before taking pics) but all the time. i dont want to see heaters, spray bars, diffusers etc in the tank. i sit at my desk 8 hours a day and will be able to see it all the time. it would be great if i can create a living work of art that always looks good with no distraction of plastic kit etc.. especially as its open top and braceless, these things are more relevant in that kind of set up IMO.

thanks again for the input and i dont mean to be difficult.[DOUBLEPOST=1406735808][/DOUBLEPOST]





Iain Sutherland said:


> 1501 would be fine for 100cm.


hydor heater would still be a very tight fit even with the 1501 (plus the heater will slow the flow.)

im being tight and using the old cabinet stand from the broken Juwel rio180. the tank is being custom made to fit the stand just shallower than the rio180. plus the new tank will sit next to a juwel vision 450 so having the two matching cabinets will look better than having two different stands in the office next to each other.


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## James O (30 Jul 2014)

Clear Perspex/acrylic pipe........


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## Iain Sutherland (30 Jul 2014)

Before they send your order check your lily pipes don't direct the flow down too much otherwise in a shallow tank you will have a spot where the flow removes all the substrate.


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## James Flexton (30 Jul 2014)

James O said:


> Clear Perspex/acrylic pipe........


I'm getting clear pipe from green machine when I order the filter. What's the Perspex for though?


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## James Flexton (30 Jul 2014)

Iain Sutherland said:


> Before they send your order check your lily pipes don't direct the flow down too much otherwise in a shallow tank you will have a spot where the flow removes all the substrate.


 The only other lily pipes I found were poppy glass type but as they slow the flow I assumed this would be counter productive. They're the co2 art ones £38 I think for intake and outlet set. Not the end of the world if I need to change them for something else later on. The tank will be hard scaped and run in for three weeks before planting so plenty of time to fiddle with flow etc.


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## pepedopolous (30 Jul 2014)

James Flexton said:


> The tank will be hard scaped and run in for three weeks before planting so plenty of time to fiddle with flow etc.


Now why would you do that? These days people plant their tanks from the start. Aquasoil contains ammonia so the plants use it up and there's no need to bother with the traditional weeks and weeks of cycling. If you're gonna have shrimps some people add them after only a few days (Amanos and cherries).


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## James Flexton (30 Jul 2014)

pepedopolous said:


> Now why would you do that? These days people plant their tanks from the start. Aquasoil contains ammonia so the plants use it up and there's no need to bother with the traditional weeks and weeks of cycling. If you're gonna have shrimps some people add them after only a few days (Amanos and cherries).



I spoke for ages with james Findlay, green machine about the set up and he said if he's setting up a tank in the shop without the constraints of being filmed he always runs for 3 weeks before planting. The ammonia released from Ada substrate does the fish less cycle but he said to run in for three weeks. 70% water change a week and plant on week 3. Also gives you time to fine tune hard scape etc and avoid any algae blooms. I'll end up spending over £100 easily on plants and he said if I do it this way I should have no losses whereas plant immediately using Ada substrate and I'll lose a fair proportion due to the ammonia / potential algae etc. 

I'm in no rush so will follow this method. The tank layout will be similar to crimson Skye seen in his journals so I'm not one to argue if that's how his turned out!


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## pepedopolous (30 Jul 2014)

I see. Interesting that he is advising against ADA methods in this case.


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## foxfish (30 Jul 2014)

That is interesting... never bothered myself!


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## James Flexton (30 Jul 2014)

pepedopolous said:


> I see. Interesting that he is advising against ADA methods in this case.


Ha ha. Really? I haven't looked into what Ada actually advise although as a rule of thumb over my 10 years of keeping planted tanks ammonia = bad = algae so I'm happy to get rid of it before planting and lighting it up. I'll have the filter running and heater going and hard scape in but that's it for 3 weeks. 

I'll use that time to test the flow as well. I just need to think of something light but non buoyant and inert I can chuck in the tank to see the flow. Small bits of filter floss maybe might do the job


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## Iain Sutherland (30 Jul 2014)

seems a strange way to start up but there is more than one way to skin a cat.... not that ive tried recently 
i did considered finding something to test flow in this way, best i found were neutrally bouyant balls used for fishing... ill see if i can find the link.


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## James O (30 Jul 2014)

James Flexton said:


> I'm getting clear pipe from green machine when I order the filter. What's the Perspex for though?


 Full length spraybar


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## James Flexton (31 Jul 2014)

right then, i think im getting there on the hardwear. settled on the eheim 350T filter mainly because it has a heater and will fit in cabinet whereas the hydor in line wont with a jbl filter (and if it did it would be in a weird folded type pattern but i want straight tubes, no kinks etc.

so next is substrate..

i like the fine grain ada amazonia and am tempted to use normal amazonia 2x9L bags and then hardscape finally putting one bag of the fine powder version over the top. to create scale and a nice fine substrate.
however i imagine if its much finer grain than the bottom layer then after time it will sink below and end up on the bottom after time. is this true? if so theres no point.
and i am thinking i need 2x9L normal and 1x9L powder. - how much depth will that give me in a 100x40 tank? as its only 30 deep i dont want it mega deep or ill have no room to play with.

price wise the three bags as above work out to £119 so not as bad as i thought if i skip the powersand that i originally thought i had to use.


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## pepedopolous (31 Jul 2014)

Check this out: -
http://www.flowgrow.de/db/soilcalcu...pth=400&soilHeightFront=10&soilHeightBack=125


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## Alastair (31 Jul 2014)

James Flexton said:


> I spoke for ages with james Findlay, green machine about the set up and he said if he's setting up a tank in the shop without the constraints of being filmed he always runs for 3 weeks before planting. The ammonia released from Ada substrate does the fish less cycle but he said to run in for three weeks. 70% water change a week and plant on week 3. Also gives you time to fine tune hard scape etc and avoid any algae blooms. I'll end up spending over £100 easily on plants and he said if I do it this way I should have no losses whereas plant immediately using Ada substrate and I'll lose a fair proportion due to the ammonia / potential algae etc.
> 
> I'm in no rush so will follow this method. The tank layout will be similar to crimson Skye seen in his journals so I'm not one to argue if that's how his turned out!



James method is what I used few years ago on my shallow. Did it for two weeks. 

Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk 2


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## Edvet (3 Aug 2014)

pepedopolous said:


> Check this out: -
> http://www.flowgrow.de/db/soilcalcu...pth=400&soilHeightFront=10&soilHeightBack=125


It would cost me about 5.700 euro to replace my gravel with aquasoil amazonia.............


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## James Flexton (3 Aug 2014)

pepedopolous said:


> Check this out: -
> http://www.flowgrow.de/db/soilcalcu...pth=400&soilHeightFront=10&soilHeightBack=125


I'm confused, what am I looking at?


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## Edvet (3 Aug 2014)

price calculator for a certain tank/substrate volume


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## James Flexton (4 Aug 2014)

Ahh I see now (slaps forehead!) that's great very useful thanks


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