# Co2 & ferts??



## Dave2a (3 Nov 2011)

Hi topic I don't know much about but learning (slowly) 

Im injecting co2 and been useing nutrafin plant gro and just got hold of some flourish excel which I done my first dose of last night! 
My question is, do I still add the plant gro or now just stick with the excel!! But what I find confusing is how do you know when your over fertilising??
Any help be much appreciated!!


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## GillesF (3 Nov 2011)

Nutrafin plant grow is a micro-nutritients mixture, right? Keep dosing it.

In order to grow well, your plants need:

Macro-nutritients: CO2, KNO3, KH2PO4
Micro-nutritients: Nutrafin Plant Grow, Profito, own mixture, ...

And of course light to provide the "growth energy", but keep in mind that more light = more energy = more nutritients.


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## foxfish (3 Nov 2011)

Dave you might want to revise 'EI' as this is the most popular fertilisation method discussed on the forum.
EI or Estimated Index, is all about guaranteeing you plants get every thing they need.
When you use C02 & EI it becomes necessary to change 50% of the tanks volume every week due to the strong growth of the plants & to prevent the build up of toxins the plants produce.
It appears very difficult to over fertilise as long as you follow the basic guidelines.


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## Alastair (3 Nov 2011)

Also, you said you'd just put in your first dose of excel last night, a liquid carbon dose only has a life of 12 hours once put in the tank, and if your dosing at night then by the time you come to pop your lights on it will almost certainly have gone. Unless your just using it for its algaecidal properties I imagine that's fine. 
If you want some help on working out ei amounts etc I'll help as our tanks are almost the same volume. As fox fish says, it's the most popular and provides everything your plants need, coupled with the co2 your injecting. Well worth it mate


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## Aquadream (3 Nov 2011)

Hi Dave.
Nutrafin Plant Gro is a fertilizer that contains Nitrogen. The recommended dose will add approximately 0.15 mg/L of Nitrogen per day. This means if you dose any Phosphate salt or fertiliser you should be careful not to dose more than 0.1mg/L of PO4.
If your set up requires more macronutrients then go ahead, but keep in mind that there is some N in the Nutrafin.

Liquid Carbon ferts are based on Glutaraldehyde. It is an algaecide and a source of Carbon for plants. Even if it is deactivated after 12 hours period (which will depend on the set up conditions) the carbon from Glutaraldehyde does not get lost, because it is not like CO2 gas.
The use of Exsel in the evening will be more efficient against algae as the lights go off, but some or all of the Carbon may be lost due to reaction with other chemical compounds. 

If you make regular 50% water changes or so over fertilizing is not going to be an issue.


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## Dave2a (3 Nov 2011)

Thanks for the quick replys guys!!   i keep using plant gro for time being with the excel, 50% water change is a lot how you guys go about that on the larger tanks?

been sat here reading for far to long my eyes hurt lol there a lot to understand about EI!!
but sounds like it to good not to try plus save some pennies! 
alastair im dosing excel at about 6pm, lights on at 4pm, off at midnight it either that or dose in morning about 8am, i was under the impresion it lasted 24 hours :-?  im using it for plants and to takle the slight BBA thats sprung back from my tear down 
also if you think you got the patients then yes please to some help


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## Alastair (3 Nov 2011)

Course mate. Pm me when your ready to buy ei salts. The sponsors on here sell them. I get mine from aquarium plant food. The ei starter kit is great but you'll need a bigger dosing bottle. 
Water change wise, are you using the fx5 filter I think you said, just order x amount of 25 mm internal diameter hosing and with your spare aqua valve, attach it and stick it on your outflow nozzle and watch that tank water rapidly drop lol. 
Then all I do after that is dose my seachem prime into the tank, get a mixer tap on my sink, run into a jug and use the thermometer to get it to the same temp as tank then slap a hose on and let it fill your tank up. All done in twenty mins


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## Dave2a (3 Nov 2011)

hmmmm i wonder where that spare valve is!! i allways done buckets  
thank you


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## Alastair (3 Nov 2011)

Think I've a spare should you not be able to find it


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## cichlidfam (3 Nov 2011)

Alastair said:
			
		

> Think I've a spare should you not be able to find it




Hmmmmm wonder where you got that from? Some generous guy i presume.


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## Alastair (4 Nov 2011)

Nope, im using that one. Others from my sold one :0p


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## cichlidfam (4 Nov 2011)

Alastair said:
			
		

> Nope, im using that one. Others from my sold one :0p



Hahahaha


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## ceg4048 (4 Nov 2011)

Aquadream said:
			
		

> ...Nutrafin Plant Gro is a fertilizer that contains Nitrogen. The recommended dose will add approximately 0.15 mg/L of Nitrogen per day...
> 
> ...If your set up requires more macronutrients then go ahead, but keep in mind that there is some N in the Nutrafin...


Actually this is a misinterpretation of the data offered by the Nutrafin website, which lists the product's N content as follows:
GUARANTEED ANALYSIS:
Total Nitrogen (N).................................0.15%
0.15% Water Soluble Nitrogen (Chelating agent)

The fact therefore is that the Nitrogen contained in this product is as a chelating agent, which is irrelevant and has nothing to do with the common Nitrogen species that plants use (NO3 and NH4/NH3). The chelating agent happens to be EDTA (Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid).

Ultimately, EDTA complexes do biodegrade and release ammonium through a very complex chain of compounds, but this takes months, depending on the water's pH. So it is very persistent and you may as well not consider the Nitrogen in these compounds to be bio-available at all.


			
				Aquadream said:
			
		

> ...This means if you dose any Phosphate salt or fertiliser you should be careful not to dose more than 0.1mg/L of PO4...


This is also not accurate. When dosing a CO2 enriched tank, more Phosphate simply means more growth. One never has to worry about limiting PO4. This concept of limiting PO4 is a myth. I routinely dose 100X this value and I have no problems whatsoever. The EI dosing values for PO4 is at least 10X that value.


			
				Aquadream said:
			
		

> Liquid Carbon ferts are based on Glutaraldehyde. It is an algaecide and a source of Carbon for plants. Even if it is deactivated after 12 hours period (which will depend on the set up conditions) the carbon from Glutaraldehyde does not get lost, because it is not like CO2 gas.
> The use of Exsel in the evening will be more efficient against algae as the lights go off, but some or all of the Carbon may be lost due to reaction with other chemical compounds.


This is also not accurate. We should consider that the main use of liquid carbon products is as a supplemental source of CO2, and only secondarily as an algecide. Since we are trying to avoid or negate the root cause of CO2 related algae liquid carbon products should be dosed at a time when they will be at maximum strength and maximum use and that is during the photoperiod. So we are trying to increase the CO2 availability to the plants so that they become healthier. in becoming healthier they will then resist the forms of algae that are related to CO2 deficiency. It is a completely upside down policy to dose liquid carbon at night when COI2 is not being used. You need to dose it before it weakens and degrades and when it is of most use.


			
				Aquadream said:
			
		

> If you make regular 50% water changes or so over fertilizing is not going to be an issue.


Over fertilizing is never an issue generally. The water changes have nothing to do with the level of fertilizers and has everything to do with cleaning the tank. Dirty tanks and low nutrient content encourage algae. Clean tanks and abundant fertilization encourage healthy plants and discourages algae.

Cheers,


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## Alastair (4 Nov 2011)

Thanks Clive. I thought i was right when I'd said it was best he dose it at the beginning of his photo period ;0)


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## Dave2a (4 Nov 2011)

*Co2 & ferts??*

So dosing at 6 is no good!! 2 hours after photo period starts!! Or I can dose at 8am but then it be running out 4 hours before photo period stops!! 
What you guys recommend??


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## George Farmer (4 Nov 2011)

Dave2a said:
			
		

> So dosing at 6 is no good!! 2 hours after photo period starts!! Or I can dose at 8am but then it be running out 4 hours before photo period stops!!
> What you guys recommend??


In reality it doesn't make much difference. Dose when is most convenient for you. Just dose regularly and in sufficient qtys.


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## Alastair (4 Nov 2011)

Don't rack your brains dave, 6 is ok as its only 2 hours into your lighting period


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## foxfish (4 Nov 2011)

Thing is Dave, growing plants underwater is not so difficult as it might first appear, granted there are some folk who have mastered the finer details of perfection & own pristine tanks but, most folk on here are just happy to see healthy plants growing without nuisance algae.
It does take a little experimenting however, the easy route is - use a pressurised C02 system, make sure the C02 gets into every tiny area of the tank, this is easily done buy using a full length spray bar just below the water surface & pointing at the front of the tank. 
Introduce sufficient ferts, easily done with the EI system.
Supply enough light but think about using less light rather than more light to get good growth rather than algae, two tubes the length of the tank is fine.
50% water change a week once the tank is stable & perhaps additional water changes durring the first few weeks.

Those are the basics required for a hight tech planted tank with perhaps the C02 distribution being the key factor.
If you use an inline atomiser, these devices will produce a zillion micro bubbles that will clearly show the water movement within the tank. These bubbles really help when you start off & I would recommend using one before you go down the reactor route. (reactor don't allow the C02 to be visible in the tank & offer a much clearer view of the plants & fish)


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## PeteA (4 Nov 2011)

foxfish said:
			
		

> Those are the basics required for a hight tech planted tank with perhaps the C02 distribution being the key factor.
> If you use an inline atomiser, these devices will produce a zillion micro bubbles that will clearly show the water movement within the tank. These bubbles really help when you start off & I would recommend using one before you go down the reactor route. (reactor don't allow the C02 to be visible in the tank & offer a much clearer view of the plants & fish)



(slight thread hijack).  So for visibility a CO2 reactor provides clearer water than an inline diffuser?


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## foxfish (4 Nov 2011)

During the time the gas is being introduced through an atomiser there will be visible micro bubbles in the tank.
A well designed external reactor will dissolve the gas before it reaches the display tank so - yes the water, during gas on time, will be much clearer with a reactor.
However the atomised bubbles are extremely small & not particularly visible unless viewed from close up.


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## PeteA (4 Nov 2011)

foxfish said:
			
		

> During the time the gas is being introduced through an atomiser there will be visible micro bubbles in the tank.
> A well designed external reactor will dissolve the gas before it reaches the display tank so - yes the water, during gas on time, will be much clearer with a reactor.
> However the atomised bubbles are extremely small & not particularly visible unless viewed from close up.



Thanks for that!  Will look into an external reactor rather than diffuser then


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## Dave2a (5 Nov 2011)

*Co2 & ferts??*



			
				foxfish said:
			
		

> Thing is Dave, growing plants underwater is not so difficult as it might first appear, granted there are some folk who have mastered the finer details of perfection & own pristine tanks but, most folk on here are just happy to see healthy plants growing without nuisance algae.
> It does take a little experimenting however, the easy route is - use a pressurised C02 system, make sure the C02 gets into every tiny area of the tank, this is easily done buy using a full length spray bar just below the water surface & pointing at the front of the tank.
> Introduce sufficient ferts, easily done with the EI system.
> Supply enough light but think about using less light rather than more light to get good growth rather than algae, two tubes the length of the tank is fine.
> ...


 i notice quite a few people use a spray bar!! Would a spray bar work 5ft long from a fluval FX5 any one do this???


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## Alastair (5 Nov 2011)

Yes mate I did just that, worked well too but me having a bow front flow didn't hit the sides well. It's really easy to do as long as the holes are relatively small to allow enough pressure the hole length of pipe


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## Dave2a (5 Nov 2011)

Alastair said:
			
		

> Yes mate I did just that, worked well too but me having a bow front flow didn't hit the sides well. It's really easy to do as long as the holes are relatively small to allow enough pressure the hole length of pipe


relatively small? like 3-4mm? and what colour tubeing did you use/find!! good to know there enough preasure from the FX5 shame it didnt work in the bow front
am i getting carried away now lol


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## Alastair (6 Nov 2011)

Off the top of my head I think it was 3mm but will check as still have them. If your happy with your flow as it is, leave it for now. Unless your wanting everything spot on first time round lol


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## Dave2a (6 Nov 2011)

*Co2 & ferts??*

No point doing things by half lol I Defo have dead spots even with with large power head running


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## Alastair (6 Nov 2011)

I find the twin outlets in the fx5s not great for big tanks. If not a spray bar then change the outlet to a single l bend running along the back the powerhead blowing along the front to get circular flow.


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## Westyggx (6 Nov 2011)

*Co2 & ferts??*



			
				Alastair said:
			
		

> I find the twin outlets in the fx5s not great for big tanks. If not a spray bar then change the outlet to a single l bend running along the back the powerhead blowing along the front to get circular flow.



I can confirm that the single outlet works better than the double you get loads more flow from it.


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## Dave2a (17 Nov 2011)

*Co2 & ferts??*

Alastair ive just  received my EI starter kiti have 4 shiny foil bags and two bottles!! 
For some reason PM not working I've sent few messages now over last couple of days and none have come up in sent folder!! Weird!!


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## Alastair (17 Nov 2011)

Pm'd mate


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