# Tank cycling - a bit clueless



## zoon (24 Sep 2018)

I haven’t had a tank for quite a few years. Previous to that, my large low tech tank used to be a Malawi tank so the filters were cycled. Used a fishless cycle when I originally got that tank many moons ago.

My new tank is 1/30th the size of my old and is currently sat with the hardscape ready and waiting for the plants. 

During my wait I’ve been snooping around the forum and see lots of mentions of the use of ammonia causing more issues than it solves and that test kits are not really required. 

So that basically leaves me stumped and I’ve no idea what I’m doing next!  I will have to buy a test kit if it’s required as I don’t have any old of my old equipment (sure it’d be out of date anyway), so that’s a nice amount of money saved if I don’t need it. 

Tank is a 19l fluval spec (old style with the low light) that’ll be planted with mini java fern and anubias bonsai. Maybe some dwarf sagg or hairgrass. Plan to keep chilli rasboras and shrimp/Pygmy corys 

How do I go about it if I’m not using ammonia and test kits???


----------



## Edvet (24 Sep 2018)

Plant it and leave it for 6 weeks. Healthy growing plants will provide plenty bacteria, especially if you stock lightly at the beginning.
Doing waterchanges and using a light dose of ferts will make your plants happy.
I have never tested water for nitrite.
( If you can get some water from another tank or filter it will speed up, but healthy plants can handle a big bioload)


----------



## zoon (24 Sep 2018)

As simple as that? dont add anything into the tank to feed the growth of the bacteria?


----------



## tam (24 Sep 2018)

There are a few ways you could do it - you could do a regular fishless cycle adding ammonia as you did before then once the tank is ready for fish, plant it and add the fish. You could plant heavily to start with (fast growing plants work best), let them establish and then gradually add fish - plants take on some of the role of bacteria. You could find someone with established filter media to start you off and use that to jump start you filter. You could use one of the substrates that leach ammonia and that will cycle you tank as a side effect and you can add fish in around 4-6 weeks same as for a fishless cycle.


----------



## Edvet (24 Sep 2018)

About feeding the  bacteria":
I don''t believe in that. A healthy bacteria population can double in size very fast, a healthy tank has plenty bacteria, start with a light stocking, plants will absorb/use the nitrogen for growth and bacteria will proliferate fast.
Things are different for a non planted heavily stocked tank like a large cichlid tank, then all the work is done in the filters, but even than starting with a light stock and doing waterchanges will work.


----------



## zoon (24 Sep 2018)

Thank you guys


----------



## dw1305 (24 Sep 2018)

Hi all, 





Edvet said:


> Plant it and leave it for 6 weeks.


That one. 





zoon said:


> that’ll be planted with mini java fern and anubias bonsai. Maybe some dwarf sagg or hairgrass.


Because these aren't quick growing plants, it would be useful to have a floating plant, the main advantage of these is that they have access to aerial CO2 (400 ppm), so that they aren't CO2 limited. 

I think the Fluval Spec has an inbuilt lid? so you would need to have a slightly lower water level to leave room for Amazon Frogbit or _Salvinia._

I also use a <"floating plant to assess the nutrient status of the tank"> when it is up and running.

cheers Darrel


----------



## alto (24 Sep 2018)

zoon said:


> Tank is a 19l fluval spec (old style with the low light) that’ll be planted with mini java fern and anubias bonsai. Maybe some dwarf sagg or hairgrass. Plan to keep chilli rasboras and shrimp/Pygmy corys



I’d skip the mini hair grass species as these really do prefer some additional CO2 for thriving growth

Sagittaria subulata can vary in its growth habit, changing from under 10 cm to over 20cm ... and then back again when you dare to move it to take advantage of the height  
Having said that, when I’ve kept it “low tech” in the old Spec 19, it remained ~5cm (Tropica Powder, occasional water change & Tropica fertilizers)

Limnophila sessiliflora looks awesome in a Spec with its relatively delicate leaf structure - it will grow reasonably quickly & help balance the tank, and is recommended for tank startups

If you tire of trimming it (growth rate will vary depending ...), replace with Myriophyllum matogrossense which I’ve also found does very well in the older Spec (low tech) - it’s more delicate in appearance than the L sess & different shade of green (I’ve not seen it get any red tips in my Spec 19s)


As long as you’ve not chosen an ammonia releasing soil (ADA Amazonia though there are others, note ADA Amazonia Light supposedly does not release ammonia), after a few days, I’d add in a few Clithon sp (Nerite type) snails as they will tidy up algae ... these tiny snails aren’t going to produce any significant ammonia so will be fine while tank establishes

Follow Tropica’s 90 Day app for an easy schedule


----------



## alto (24 Sep 2018)

I’m a proponent of Fishless Cycling when I’ve kept Tanganyikans or lived in remote areas - plants shipped in, then a few days after planting, I  begin “feeding” my planned fish population - which like plants, is going to be added in one go (once plants are established) ... I’ve always driven to select & pick up fish and when it’s several hours travel each way, I’m not adding my fish gradually 

For Rift Lake tanks, it’s recommended to add all fish at once as it’s a much more successful method for most species or limited community tanks - and they are quite sensitive to any measurable ammonia (especially given the alkaline pH)  

While bacteria populations can adjust fairly quickly, the relatively limited bacterial population established during a plant only “cycle”, will not be sufficient for the sudden addition of upwards of 20 fish ... 

I fail to see the downside of including a fishless cycle in your tank preparation


----------



## dw1305 (24 Sep 2018)

Hi all,


alto said:


> the relatively limited bacterial population established during a plant only “cycle”, will not be sufficient for the sudden addition of upwards of 20 fish


It probably won't, but I still think this is missing the main point.

It isn't just a bacterial population we are interested in, it is the composite synergistic assemblage of plants, archaea and bacteria. The plants create a much larger volume of space where nitrification can occur, they remove all forms of fixed nitrogen and they are net oxygen producers.

If you want to keep a larger bioload of fish, you just need more plants, and more oxygen reaching the biological filtration. There will be a theoretical limit to this, but based on the work on Recirculating Aquaculture Systems and <"phytoremediation"> it is at a stocking density that exceeds anything you are likely to reach in an aquarium.


alto said:


> I fail to see the downside of including a fishless cycle in your tank preparation


I can see the point of adding ammonia (via ammonia or fish food) if you are going to keep a large bioload in a bare tank, you don't have any alternative and you are likely to end up with a similar "high ammonia" microbial assemblage.

Personally I'm never going to keep a large bioload in a bare tank, if I wanted to keep a shoal of Pacu (or _Tilapia_), it would be with a very volume large planted trickle filter system (from <"Integrated Multi-Trophic Recirculating Aquaculture System for Nile Tilapia (_Oreochromis niloticus_)">.






cheers Darrel


----------



## alto (24 Sep 2018)

dw1305 said:


> If you want to keep a larger bioload of fish, you just need more plants,


I’ve had various fish disagree with my plant keeping 

Even one shoal of chocolate gouramis decided to trim all my delicate stem plants one day ... & once started, they refused to cease & desist  eventually they moved to a driftwood affair with a few sturdy plants for visual relief but sloooooooow growing plants aren’t going to do much bio-filtering 

Your trickle plant system looks grand  but I’m far too lazy for anything beyond a canister 
(have yet to listen to a sump that wouldn’t drive me mad ... I can’t fathom why anyone would want to listen to water sounds inside their home ..... )


I have done an ammonia style fishless cycling - it was a fun experiment for the lab tank ... that was also when I decided to test out every test kit I could source locally (running standard curves etc)


Of course, read any tank startup thread on here, & if people suggest adding livestock during the first weeks, almost everyone insists upon waiting until the tank “cycles”  - further that companies that recommend adding algae crew at the start are just “wrong”
BUT if plants are actively growing, and capable of “filtering” ... why wait


----------



## alto (24 Sep 2018)

dw1305 said:


> very volume large planted trickle filter system


I think that’s bigger than my living room


----------



## Edvet (25 Sep 2018)

alto said:


> to water sounds inside their home


Lol it''s very Zen or Feng shui, You should hear my 400 gallon in my living room, but even the missus doesn''t complain anymore.
https://www.hbmag.com/water-in-feng-shui/


----------



## zoon (25 Sep 2018)

Now I’m confused


----------



## Edvet (25 Sep 2018)

Conversation went of topic, for a scaped tank with not a huge bioload see my first post. The followup discusion was about big bioloads and few or no plants, in that case arguments could be made for ammonia for cycling.


----------



## dw1305 (25 Sep 2018)

Hi all,





Edvet said:


> for a scaped tank with not a huge bioload see my first post


That advice.





zoon said:


> Now I’m confused


It is a bit confusing, but the there are some simple concepts that make it a bit easier to follow. 

The really important ones are that: 

Oxygen is the prime metric in biological filtration, not ammonia. This means that as long as your oxygen supply exceeds your oxygen demand then you have a resilient system. We can't easily measure dissolved oxygen, but we can put systems into place that make high oxygen levels much more likely.  I wrote this, about ten years ago, specifically for rheophilic plec keepers, but it is relevant to all fish keeping: <"Aeration and dissolved oxygen....">.
Cycling isn't a black and white situation which flips from "non-cycled" to "cycled", it is a <"shades of grey"> scenario where good systems have greater capacity to deal with unexpected ammonia spikes.
The next one is that 

"Plant/microbe" biofiltration systems are a lot more effective and flexible than "microbe only" systems.
The third one is that:

A lot more organisms are involved in nitrification than was initially recognised, and some of the bacteria that were thought to be important in aquarium biofiltration (_Nitrobacter_ spp.) <"don't actually occur in aquariums">.
cheers Darrel


----------



## rebel (25 Sep 2018)

What I always say is that there is not much harm in using the classical 'organic' method of urine in the tank. Day 1 and Day 10. 

Those species that you mentioned are very sensitive. I would wait for 2 months before adding them.


----------

