# Why are my plants struggling to grow?



## Keys_Tanks (25 Nov 2020)

Hi guys being new to the forum, I am after some advice on my plants. 
Spec-
90lt 
Twinstar 600E V2 
Oase Biomaster 250
Co2 injection 
Both ferts being auto dosed on alternate days using D-D dosing pumps. 

I am currently dosing EI ferts in my 90lt tank following AquariumPlantFoodUks advice but doubled phosphates. 

The 53b and hipporoides are such a slow growers within this tank and I cannot figure why. And I've come to the realisation it must be nutrient based. 

From the photos i am going to attach shows the clear deficiency within the plants. Unfortunately the camera does not show the overall paleness around the edges of the leaves. 

Thanks in advance 
Josh 
View attachment 156944View attachment 156943View attachment 156945View attachment 156946View attachment 156946View attachment 156947


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## dw1305 (25 Nov 2020)

Hi all,
Welcome to the forum. Click on the <"linked threads">, and <"links within them">, and it should give you a bit of idea about the forum.


Keys_Tanks said:


> From the photos i am going to attach shows the clear deficiency within the plants.


It doesn't look too bad, but it looks likely to be an iron (Fe), or <"just possibly manganese (Mn), issue">. Deficiency of these elements causes paling (chlorosis), and neither are mobile within the plant, <"which means deficiency effects new leaves">.  For non-plant mobile elements it takes a while before new healthy leaves grow.

Do you know how hard your water is? Because of where you live it could be soft water from a "black peak" reservoir, or hard water from a limestone aquifer. Iron deficiencies are much more likely in hard water, where you need a chelator like <"FeEDDHA or FeDTPA">.


Keys_Tanks said:


> but doubled phosphates.


Was their specific reason for this? There is no way of knowing, but it may have <"contributed to your problems">. Phosphorus (P) is <"highly mobile within the plant">, so that isn't your problem at the moment.

cheers Darrel


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## Keys_Tanks (25 Nov 2020)

Hi Darrel thanks for the detailed reply and the welcome,  

I live in Sheffield, water is pretty hard. Running around a TDs of 300 in the aquarium and 200 from the tap. 
Do you need me to test my water for parameters to help you understand better?  

I believe the photos Arent brilliant because in person it's much more pale around the edges and the leaves look so strange and remind me of tissue paper(crinkly) 

I have doubled my phosphates as I use the same ei mix for all of my high-tech aquariums. I experienced some extremely bad GSA in others and this is how I got around it. I got given the advice from a group on Facebook. 
The same chaps at this group also said I dont need to add any additional trace elements? And rather pump in more phosphates to get around this deficiency I am facing. What's really confused me hence why I've decided to get more info and advice. 

If so how do I supplement these other trace elements that I am lacking in? 

Thanks 
Josh


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## PARAGUAY (25 Nov 2020)

Welcome to ukaps


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## dw1305 (26 Nov 2020)

Hi all,


Keys_Tanks said:


> I live in Sheffield, water is pretty hard. Running around a TDs of 300 in the aquarium and 200 from the tap.


That is useful to know, it makes iron deficiencies more likely, just because nearly all <"iron salts are insoluble"> in alkaline water, water above pH7.

Because of this we have to chelate iron, with <"something like FeEDTA">, rather than just adding a soluble salt (like iron chloride (FeCl3)). When we add an iron salt to hard water the the ferric iron (Fe+++) ions will be mopped up almost instantly to form insoluble iron oxide ("rust") iron hydroxide, iron carbonate, iron phosphate etc.

All plants can only take up nutrients as ions from solution.


Keys_Tanks said:


> Do you need me to test my water for parameters to help you understand better?


No, not really. The figures from your <"water supplier"> would <"be useful">, mainly because they have an analytical lab. with lots of <"fancy kit">. The problem for us is that we don't have analytical kit, so we are reliant on <"test kits and meters">. Some of them <"work pretty well">, but some are more problematic. I use an alternative <"testing approach"> which uses the <"leaf colour and growth of a floating plant"> as a proxy for nutrient status.

I like a conductivity (TDS) meter, it isn't the most useful parameter, but it is <"nice and straightforward">.


Keys_Tanks said:


> I experienced some extremely bad GSA in others and this is how I got around it. I got given the advice from a group on Facebook.


Tom Barr @plantbrain found that adding more phosphate (PO4---) controlled GSA, he didn't (and we still don't) know how it works. My guess is that it works by reducing iron availability.


Keys_Tanks said:


> Arent brilliant because in person it's much more pale around the edges


Have a look at <"_Rotala rotundifolia_ - Growth Issues">.  This is @sciencefiction 's iron deficient _Hygrophila corymbosa_ picture (from <"that thread">)







Keys_Tanks said:


> The same chaps at this group also said I dont need to add any additional trace elements? And rather pump in more phosphates to get around this deficiency I am facing.


It *definitely isn't *a phosphate deficiency. Phosphate (PO4---) is <"highly mobile within the plant">, so the plant can continually export from old to new leaves,  any deficiency symptoms would occur in old leaves and you would get a fairly instant response when it was no longer limiting plant growth.


Keys_Tanks said:


> What's really confused me hence why I've decided to get more info and advice.


I know this is a forum, and I'm not trying to be funny, but the advice on forums, by a lot of LFS, by the purveyors of test kits, pH buffers etc. is generally cr*p.

Hopefully we <"can do a bit better">.


Keys_Tanks said:


> If so how do I supplement these other trace elements that I am lacking in?


I'd probably start by just adding a separate iron source, <"Chempak Sequestered Iron"> would do.

cheers Darrel


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## Keys_Tanks (26 Nov 2020)

Sheffield South
Supply Zone ZDB02​

For most analysis, results are from samples taken at random in the water quality zone of your area. In some cases, results are from samples taken from water treatment supply points feeding the zone.Hardness ResultsHardness LevelValueSlightly HardStandardNo standard appliesUK/EU LimitHardness ClarkValue10.49StandardNo standard appliesUK/EU LimitDegrees ClarkHardness GermanValue8.39StandardNo standard appliesUK/EU LimitGerman DegreesHardness FrenchValue14.99StandardNo standard appliesUK/EU LimitFrench Degrees

For most analysis, results are from samples taken at random in the water quality zone of your area. In some cases, results are from samples taken from water treatment supply points feeding the zone.Data is for period 31-May-2020 to 30-June-2020Water Quality Summary Report1,2-DichloroethaneAverage<0.30Maximum<0.30Minimum<0.30UK/EU Limit3.0Unitsµg/lNumber of Results3Samples above PCV Limit0AldrinAverage<0.003Maximum<0.003Minimum<0.003UK/EU Limit0.03Unitsµg/lNumber of Results3Samples above PCV Limit0AluminiumAverage<14Maximum<14Minimum<14UK/EU Limit200.0Unitsµg/lNumber of Results4Samples above PCV Limit0AmmoniumAverage<0.064Maximum<0.064Minimum<0.064UK/EU Limit0.5Unitsmg/lNumber of Results4Samples above PCV Limit0BenzeneAverage<0.12Maximum<0.12Minimum<0.12UK/EU Limit1.0Unitsµg/lNumber of Results3Samples above PCV Limit0BoronAverage<0.030Maximum<0.030Minimum<0.030UK/EU Limit1.0Unitsmg/lNumber of Results3Samples above PCV Limit0ChlorideAverage17.37Maximum29.40Minimum10.60UK/EU Limit250.0Unitsmg/lNumber of Results3Samples above PCV Limit0Clostridium perfringensAverage0Maximum0Minimum0UK/EU Limit0.0UnitsNo. / 100mlNumber of Results4Samples above PCV Limit0Coliform BacteriaAverage0Maximum0Minimum0UK/EU Limit0.0UnitsNo. / 100mlNumber of Results8Samples above PCV Limit0Colony Count After 72 Hours at 22ºCAverage0Maximum0Minimum0UK/EU LimitNo abnormal changeUnitsNo. / 100mlNumber of Results4Samples above PCV Limit0ColourAverage<1.98Maximum<2.20Minimum<1.30UK/EU Limit20.0Unitsmg/l Pt/CoNumber of Results4Samples above PCV Limit0ConductivityAverage355Maximum357Minimum353UK/EU Limit2500.0UnitsµS/cm at 20ºCNumber of Results4Samples above PCV Limit0CyanideAverage<4Maximum<4Minimum<4UK/EU Limit50.0Unitsµg/lNumber of Results3Samples above PCV Limit0DieldrinAverage<0.008Maximum<0.008Minimum<0.008UK/EU Limit0.03Unitsµg/lNumber of Results3Samples above PCV Limit0E. coliAverage0Maximum0Minimum0UK/EU Limit0.0UnitsNo. / 100mlNumber of Results8Samples above PCV Limit0Free ChlorineAverage0.35Maximum0.40Minimum0.22UK/EU LimitNo abnormal changeUnitsmg/lNumber of Results8Samples above PCV Limit0HeptachlorAverage<0.003Maximum<0.003Minimum<0.003UK/EU Limit0.03Unitsµg/lNumber of Results3Samples above PCV Limit0Heptachlor epoxideAverage0.000Maximum0.000Minimum0.000UK/EU Limit0.03Unitsµg/lNumber of Results3Samples above PCV Limit0IronAverage<8Maximum<8Minimum<8UK/EU Limit200.0Unitsµg/lNumber of Results4Samples above PCV Limit0ManganeseAverage<0.7Maximum<0.7Minimum<0.7UK/EU Limit50.0Unitsµg/lNumber of Results4Samples above PCV Limit0MercuryAverage<0.015Maximum<0.015Minimum<0.015UK/EU Limit1.0Unitsµg/lNumber of Results4Samples above PCV Limit0OdourAverage0Maximum0Minimum0UK/EU LimitAcceptable to Customer and no abnormal changeUnitsDilution NumberNumber of Results4Samples above PCV Limit0Pesticides OtherAverage<0.010Maximum0.027Minimum<0.003UK/EU Limit0.1Unitsµg/lNumber of Results160Samples above PCV Limit0pHAverage7.66Maximum7.77Minimum7.61UK/EU LimitMin 6.5, Max 9.5UnitspH valueNumber of Results4Samples above PCV Limit0SulphateAverage37Maximum53Minimum29UK/EU Limit250.0Unitsmg/lNumber of Results3Samples above PCV Limit0TasteAverage0Maximum0Minimum0UK/EU LimitAcceptable to Customer and no abnormal changeUnitsDilution NumberNumber of Results4Samples above PCV Limit0Total Organic CarbonAverage1.2Maximum1.9Minimum0.8UK/EU LimitNo abnormal changeUnitsmg/lNumber of Results3Samples above PCV Limit0Total PesticidesAverage0.004Maximum0.012Minimum0.000UK/EU Limit0.5Unitsµg/lNumber of Results3Samples above PCV Limit0TurbidityAverage<0.12Maximum<0.12Minimum<0.12UK/EU Limit4.0UnitsNTUNumber of Results4Samples


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## Keys_Tanks (26 Nov 2020)

Thanks for taking your time to reply to my plant problem i have just ordered the product off Amazon and will be with me for Sunday. 

I have been looking at my plants again today and they are looking even lighter. And I am noticing some green dots on the leaves too now but I'm not too worried about this. 





Can you help me understand how I should dose this additional supplement? 
I think it's also an ideal time as my Ei ferts bottles are going to be depleted this weekend so u need to get my mix on Haha! 

Thanks 

Josh


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## jaypeecee (26 Nov 2020)

Hi @Keys_Tanks 

Additional to the points raised by @dw1305, I think it's also important to consider lighting intensity and CO2 concentration, both of which are very important in terms of _growth_. It's not easy to quantify lighting without specialist equipment. And the human eye is unreliable for judging the brightness of plant lighting. So, we have to experiment to see what works for each tank setup. You may find that reducing the lighting brightness is helpful. And, how long is your lighting on for (what is known as the photoperiod)? Then, there is CO2. I see that you are using a drop checker (DC). How long does it take from CO2 switching ON before the DC liquid is lime green? Does this happen before the lighting switches ON? Does the lighting ramp up slowly? That's enough questions for now.

JPC


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## AverageWhiteBloke (26 Nov 2020)

Jeez that's a hell of an in depth water report, my local authority just told me my water was wet


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## Keys_Tanks (26 Nov 2020)

Hey Jaypeecee, 

As you might have seen I am using a twinstar 600e  currently have my light come on at 14:00 and using a timer I have it so it lights upto 70% over the space of 30 mins anand then ramps down at 19.45 and turns off at 20:00

I rarely see the drop checker at a nice lime green when the lights come on. And today checking this I've noticed it's not really green. When the lights come on should I aim for this to be a lime green. 

Thanks for the help 

Josh


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## Siege (26 Nov 2020)

Yes a nice lime green colour at lights on.

your filter is under powerEd for your size if tank when using co2. I’d suggest running co2 inline, swapping the prefilters to the course sponges to maintain flow. May be worth supplementing the filter with something like the Eheim skim 350 to help with flow.

The biomaster 600 would be the more suitable filter for a 90L.


Either way CO2 on perhaps 3 hours before lights. Move the drop checker around to test it.


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## Keys_Tanks (26 Nov 2020)

Thanks for the advice @Siege, I am injecting my co2 via a co2 art inline diffuser.
Currently with my financial position I'm going to gave to stick with this but will have it in mind for when I upgrade. 
Although within my tank i get a very good flow from the filter and as far as I am aware very little dead spots or collection of waste organics. 

Thanks 
Josh


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## dw1305 (26 Nov 2020)

Hi all,


Keys_Tanks said:


> I have been looking at my plants again today and they are looking even lighter.


I'm 99% sure that is iron deficiency.


AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Jeez that's a hell of an in depth water report, my local authority just told me my water was wet


Yes, it is quite interesting. My guess is that there is a third sheet as well with NO3 etc values? It looks a good quality water supply.

The conductivity values are really similar (355 microS ~ 225 ppm TDS) and the dKH value (8.39) is somewhere in the middle (slightly hard) and it makes me think it is a blended supply (lime rich aquifer water and Pennine reservoir water), and possibly blended to a conductivity value (there are only 4 values, but they are almost identical).


Keys_Tanks said:


> Can you help me understand how I should dose this additional supplement?


Have a look at <"Chempak and dosing calculator"> and <"Could it be..."> 

cheers Darrel


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## Keys_Tanks (26 Nov 2020)

Hey Darrel! 
Somehow I missed them readings. (Added below) 

Glad the water quality seems good to you. I'm going to take on the same approach as you and work from the health of my plants that is visible. The TFKUK  Facebook group kinda drilled the get out your test kit sort of approach into me, personally I think I will enjoy it much more as I find myself constantly chasing values that may be completely false and or fluctuating due to it being a cheap 25 pound kit from API.

Sorry to bother you I've tried to follow the link to the guide of the iron supplement and I am lost Haha. I'll have a couple more reads of the guide to try and figure it. 

Thanks 

Josh 






NitrateAverage8.79Maximum10.93Minimum6.65UK/EU Limit50.0Unitsmg/lNumber of Results2Samples above PCV Limit0NitriteAverage<0.005Maximum<0.005Minimum<0.005UK/EU Limit0.5Unitsmg/lNumber of Results2Samples above PCV Limit0Nitrite - Nitrate CalculatedAverage0.18Maximum0.22Minimum0.13UK/EU Limit<1Units-Number of Results2Samples above PCV Limit0


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## dw1305 (26 Nov 2020)

Keys_Tanks said:


> Hey Darrel!
> Somehow I missed them readings. (Added below)
> 
> Glad the water quality seems good to you.


That looks good, pretty low nitrate (NO3) levels.

cheers Darrel


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## Keys_Tanks (27 Nov 2020)

Hi Darrel, 
I think I was running off fumes yesterday reading through your previous threads... just had a read through. Does this look right? 


After following what you said saying that the chempack Fe is at 2% therefore I need to times it by five to find the volume that I need to add. 

How do I add this? Is it weekly Just pour 2.25g of the chempack on one day or split over the days? I just couldnt find this part. 

I think I've plugged in all the correct values. But I am unsure. 

So I am going to make the new batch of ferts tommorow using the Ei would you reccomend anything to me otherwise I am going to follow APFUK guide but with still double phosphates.

Let me know what you think? 

Thankyou for all the help I really appreciate it. 

Josh


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## Siege (27 Nov 2020)

Hi Josh,

Have you got a full tank shot?

when was your tank set up?

temp?


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## dw1305 (27 Nov 2020)

Hi all,


Keys_Tanks said:


> After following what you said saying that the chempack Fe is at 2% therefore I need to times it by five to find the volume that I need to add.





Keys_Tanks said:


> Is it weekly Just pour 2.25g of the chempack on one day


I just tip it in, but you could dissolve it in a small amount of RO/DI water if you felt happier. With all the micro elements (trace elements) you normally just need <"some", rather than "none">.

No, the workings are right for a 90L tank, 2.25g in 90L to give *0.5 ppm Fe*.  Because you are only aiming for 0.5 ppm Fe "the 2.5 ppm target" (in the Rotala Butterfly calculator) takes into account the 2% (rather than 10%) FeDTPA in the Chempak product.

cheers Darrel


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## Keys_Tanks (27 Nov 2020)

Hey Siege! 
yeah I'll dash over some photos of the tank. Currently running it at 21°c to keep algea at minimum. I noticed a year ago having higher temps I had no end of algae. 
I set up this tank about 2 months ago now matey. 

Cheers
 Josh


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## dw1305 (27 Nov 2020)

Hi all, 
Nice tank, are the Tetras _Aphyocharax paraguayensis? _and how do they get on with your Gouramis?

cheers Darrel


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## Keys_Tanks (27 Nov 2020)

Hi Mate, 
Yeah spot on! Or panda tetras Haha. And my Gouramis are like no other extremely peaceful I've had them for a good while before and they get on great with the tetras. Never seen any form of territorial action or fighting so great tank mates together. 

Cheers
Josh


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## Wookii (27 Nov 2020)

Keys_Tanks said:


> Hey Siege!
> yeah I'll dash over some photos of the tank. Currently running it at 21°c to keep algea at minimum. I noticed a year ago having higher temps I had no end of algae.
> I set up this tank about 2 months ago now matey.
> 
> ...



Algae couldn’t care less about temperature until you start to get into single digits, but your Gourami’s might not be so happy. Seriously Fish suggests a minimum of 24 degrees:

https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/trichopodus-leerii/


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## Keys_Tanks (28 Nov 2020)

Hi mate,
unfortunately I have to strongly disagree with you there.
 I've followed alot of George farmers and not to mention Green aquas videos and George farmer keeps his pearl gouramis at around the same temp too infact I belive he keeps them at 20°c to ensure that algae is controlled. 


> Wookii said:
> 
> 
> > Algae couldn’t care less about temperature until you start to get into single digits, but your Gourami’s might not be so happy. Seriously Fish suggests a minimum of 24 degrees:


I can confirm that they are more than happy. And they are feeding and over all they are Triving in their tank. 

But thankyou for posting your thoughts 😊

Josh


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## Keys_Tanks (28 Nov 2020)

Hi Darrel just had a delivery, 



Cant wait to get it in!  As you mentioned if I felt better dissolving it in RoDi, is it important that I use that to dissolve it or can I just use some warm tap water? 
So does it matter if I dose it on a macro or micro day ? Ideally I'd like to dose it on my WC Day and also on that day I add Macro nutrients once I've refilled the tank  would I run into any problems ? 

Cheers 
Josh 


dw1305 said:


> just tip it in, but you could dissolve it in a small amount of RO/DI water if you felt happier. With all the micro elements (trace elements) you normally just need <"some", rather than "none">.


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## Wookii (28 Nov 2020)

Keys_Tanks said:


> Hi mate,
> unfortunately I have to strongly disagree with you there.
> I've followed alot of George farmers and not to mention Green aquas videos and George farmer keeps his pearl gouramis at around the same temp too infact I belive he keeps them at 20°c to ensure that algae is controlled.



I would be surprised if George had stated that relationship between temperature and algae, but I’m more than happy to be proven wrong, do you have a link and time stamp to the vid?

Certainly Green Aqua keep all their tanks at 22 degrees:



Zeus. said:


> On  recent visit to Green Aqua I was quite surprised to find they have all their tanks at 22 degrees, all their tanks looked amazing IMO very hard to find any algae at all



Either way it doesn’t change the fact that temperature - within the range we would typically keep aquaria heated to - has no direct bearing on the ability of algae to grow. 

Sure you will get greater dissolution of CO2 and O2 at lower temperatures like 20 degrees, which could feasibly help a little, but that might be somewhat countered by slightly slower plant growth.



Keys_Tanks said:


> I can confirm that they are more than happy. And they are feeding and over all they are Triving in their tank.



Well if they are feeding, then they may well be fine then - watching the fishes reaction is certainly the best appoach, however I can’t see a single resource online that gives a minimum acceptable temperature below 22 degrees.


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## Keys_Tanks (28 Nov 2020)

Hey @Wookii !


Wookii said:


> do you have a link and time stamp to the vid?


I cant remember the video that what it was to but The way I think of temprature it essentially speeds up processes and what I mean by processes is metabolic rates of fish ( requiring more food) what increases fish waste  and not to mention bacteria most definitely is more active and breakdown of organics will happen much quicker. Now with this being a slight bit lower it can give you more leeway until your weekly waterchnage to remove the organics if that make sense and therefore before the algea has the chance to set in.  
I am also very willing to learn new information and ensure that I am creating the best living environment for the fish I am keeping. I am very aware of our constant changes in understanding of how to correctly keep fish. 



Wookii said:


> but I’m more than happy to be proven wrong


I'm not trying to prove anything just that I've seen multiple highly experienced fish keepers use this same method. And honestly somtimes it takes a little bit of experimentation as every fishtank is different. 

Cheers 
Josh


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## Zeus. (28 Nov 2020)

Wookii said:


> Either way it doesn’t change the fact that temperature - within the range we would typically keep aquaria heated to - has no direct bearing on the ability of algae to grow.
> 
> Sure you will get greater dissolution of CO2 and O2 at lower temperatures like 20 degrees, which could feasibly help a little, but that might be somewhat countered by slightly slower plant growth.



They also used RO water which they remineralized, so they don't have to deal with the fluctuations in the contents of the tap water. Smart move if you ask me- the better the show tanks look - the better the product looks. You don't see dirty cars in a showroom, however in reality who cleans there car every week? Once in spring to get all the winter salt off once in fall with a valet as the inside of windows and in need of a clean for the low sun.


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## Witcher (28 Nov 2020)

Keys_Tanks said:


> The way I think of temprature it essentially speeds up processes and what I mean by processes is metabolic rates



It's almost winter now. What will happen when the spring or summer will come? Everything will bloom, including algae.


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## Zeus. (28 Nov 2020)

Witcher said:


> It's almost winter now. What will happen when the spring or summer will come? Everything will bloom, including algae.


Thats what happens in my pond once/twice a year and blanket weed then tadpoles feast on it


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## Keys_Tanks (28 Nov 2020)

Hi @Witcher,

My house is Air conditioned. When it comes to the warmer months ovs it does get alot warmer . But I've not really had an issue to date when it comes to algae as I'm always ontop of my maintenance game.


Witcher said:


> It's almost winter now. What will happen when the spring or summer will come? Everything will bloom, including algae.


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## dw1305 (29 Nov 2020)

Hi all, 


Keys_Tanks said:


> I use that to dissolve it or can I just use some warm tap water?


Yes, it should be fine.

cheers Darrel


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## Keys_Tanks (19 Dec 2020)

Hi Darrel, @dw1305 
How reliable are the charts that show deficiencies in tanks ? 

I think I might have a potassium deficiency.  I'm starting to get small holes in leaves now.

Thanks 

Josh


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## Keys_Tanks (20 Dec 2020)

Doing my Sunday WC and this is a better look


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## dw1305 (20 Dec 2020)

Hi all, 


Keys_Tanks said:


> How reliable are the charts that show deficiencies in tanks ?
> 
> I think I might have a potassium deficiency. I'm starting to get small holes in leaves now.


Yes they definitely still look like they're deficient in something. I'm not sure, it might be magnesium (Mg)?  Which salts are you adding for your EI dosing?

cheers Darrel


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## Keys_Tanks (21 Dec 2020)

Hi darrel, 

So I'm just following the salts from the apfuk starter kit. 
Although I have doubled the phosphates for GSA. 
 I know I am adding magnesium sulphate for sure. 


I'm just not sure what's happening to be honest. 
Let me know what you think.


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## dw1305 (21 Dec 2020)

Hi all, 
No, I'm at a loss really.


Keys_Tanks said:


> Although I have doubled the phosphates for GSA.


Maybe go back to a single dose? Are you adding twice as much di-potassium phosphate (K2HPO4)?

We don't know why adding more PO4--- reduces GSA growth, but it maybe because it <"reduces iron (Fe) availability">.

cheers Darrel


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