# TDS PEN



## Lee iley (5 Jan 2019)

Hi guys,

Just got a prozor TDS and EC test meter 
From Amazon only 10 pound. Just tested my water straight from the tap and it's reading 155 TDS. Do I have to buy a solution for this pen to dip into every so often if so how often do I do this. What kind of solution is it as nothing is said in the manual.

Thanks lee


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## Konsa (5 Jan 2019)

Hi
No solution needed.Its just plug(turn on)and play whenever U need to take measurement.
Regards Konsa


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## Lee iley (5 Jan 2019)

Brilliant thanks konsa.


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## jameson_uk (5 Jan 2019)

Depending on the TDS meter you can get different solutions to allow calibration.

I have a relatively good meter (HM digital COM 100) but I had a few cheapy ones from Amazon before.  The HM TDS3 I got was fine but the fake one (was called Yakamoz LCD Digital TDS3) but was terrible.




I got readings from about 120 to 450 from the standard 342 solution (the real TDS3 was +/- 10)

Not really needed though


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## zozo (5 Jan 2019)

In this case for what you use it for the acuracy and or conversions you can make of it are of minor importancy. Example if you use it for reference point to know when it's time for water change, than what the number represents is not much of use, only thing you want to know is "How much higher are we from the starting point." If this is for example starting point 120µS and do a water change at 180µS. Than even without calibration you still have you're 60 µS. That's all you want to know... I guess. Since there aint much other use for it in the aqaurium hobby. Only an indicator of solids accumulated, what ever they are..

Calibration if possible for accurate reading is more important when you use it to determine the amount of ferts you want to add. Example in horticulture it can be used for that and than the bottle of fert can say adding X ml/l = averagely X µS depending on the water source. And the fert solution is best at 180 µS for this type of crop, than you first read the starting point of the water source and determine from that starting point how much ferts need to be added not to exceed the recomended EC or add to less for the crop you like to grow. Since adding to much or to less can result in growth inhibition.


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## Ed Wiser (5 Jan 2019)




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## Lee iley (5 Jan 2019)

So would my pen need the solution to recalibrate? Thanks for the reply guys


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## zozo (5 Jan 2019)

Lee iley said:


> So would my pen need the solution to recalibrate? Thanks for the reply guys



What are you measuring for?


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## Lee iley (5 Jan 2019)

zozo said:


> What are you measuring for?


Just TDS. It is just a tds pen. But doesn't say anything in the manual what solution I need. Or even if this pen needs it?


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## dw1305 (5 Jan 2019)

Hi all, 





Lee iley said:


> What kind of solution is it as nothing is said in the manual.


All TDS meters are <"really conductivity meters">, so the calibration standards are in "microS". 

You can get calibration solutions for them, the best one for general use is "1411", or <"you can make your own">.

cheers Darrel


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## zozo (5 Jan 2019)

Ok i understand obviously you measure for TDS that is what the thing is all about.. Let me put the question this way.

What is your idea of doing with the numbers you get from this meter?

Please don't get me wrong, if you don't know what TDS actualy is about (read/watch back several previous replies), than why buy it in the first place?

And than what good is any accuracy?

Fisrtly figur this out before you worry about spending more money on calibrating.

Anyway, calibrating an TDS/EC meter you should calibrate closest to the desired value that is best for what you are measuring for. And than you need to know what you are measuring for. Than once you know this there are several different calibration fluids you can choose from..


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## Lee iley (5 Jan 2019)

zozo said:


> Ok i understand obviously you measure for TDS that is what the thing is all about.. Let me put the question this way.
> 
> What is your idea of doing with the numbers you get from this meter?
> 
> ...


I got the pen to measure the tds straight from my tap and also to measure tds out of my tank. To see how different it was from my water report. I am loosing cherry shrimp every day at the minute. So I wanted to see if my TDS is high enough and if not what I can do to increase it. 

Thanks lee


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## Lee iley (5 Jan 2019)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, All TDS meters are <"really conductivity meters">, so the calibration standards are in "microS".
> 
> You can get calibration solutions for them, the best one for general use is "1411", or <"you can make your own">.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Hi Darrel on the pen I got I can change it from micros to ppm and when I measured it straight from my tap today it came out as 155 ppm. Tds that is. I think I am correct. 

The is lee


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## dw1305 (5 Jan 2019)

Hi all,





Lee iley said:


> I measured it straight from my tap today it came out as 155 ppm. Tds that is. I think I am correct.


That is the one, TDS is in ppm. That would be worked out from a conductivity of ~240 microS (155/0.64).

cheers Darrel


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## Majsa (5 Jan 2019)

Is there a general rule about how often one should calibrate a TDS meter (in case you want to keep it accurate)? How can you check if the meter is accurate? My tap water gives a lot (100-150 microS/cm) higher reading than some time ago, and I don't know if that's real or is it the meter. On the other hand I look at the difference (now keeping the fry tank as close to tap as possible) as zozo mentioned so 100% accuracy is not that important I guess.


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## Lee iley (6 Jan 2019)

Majsa said:


> Is there a general rule about how often one should calibrate a TDS meter (in case you want to keep it accurate)? How can you check if the meter is accurate? My tap water gives a lot (100-150 microS/cm) higher reading than some time ago, and I don't know if that's real or is it the meter. On the other hand I look at the difference (now keeping the fry tank as close to tap as possible) as zozo mentioned so 100% accuracy is not that important I guess.


I would like to know this also how often we need to recalibrate. Or even if I need to recalibrate my pen.


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## Parablennius (6 Jan 2019)

Lee, this may or may not help you but this is how I use mine.
My tap is consistently around an INDICATED 50ppm, except for when the drought was biting, it has now returned to normal levels.
At waterchange day my tank TDS is around 170. I change 60% with 50ppm tap which resets tank to around 95 TDS, give or take. I then add a bit of GH and KH. Then using APF ferts and following their guidelines, each of the three doses of NPK adds around an INDICATED 18ppm x 3, the trace x 3 adds a bit more. By waterchange day I'm back to my 170 ish TDS  from GH, KH and ferts and do a reset with my 60% tap at 50ppm back to my around 95 ppm. This has worked consistently for me and is fairly predictable. What I will say re. TDS pens is that I have a cheap, non adjustable one and a more expensive calibratable one and I found that following repeated tests of the SAME WATER, the cheap one was more consistent and as zozo has said, actual figures aren't that important but it gives a guide to what's happening. Can't help with the shrimp, though, sorry. I don't keep them.


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## zozo (6 Jan 2019)

Majsa said:


> zozo mentioned so 100% accuracy is not that important I guess.



No it realy isn't  when you do not know what you are measuring.. As said above it is a Conductivity meter and there are numerous substances that increasy conductivity and these are the Total Dissolved Solids all under the same umbrella..

All you want to know is how far did it rise above your starting point. Your starting point is Water change day with fresh water in the tank.. Than after that, fish and plants secret waste products into the water containing solids. Maybe you add ferts on a daily basis, this adds solids. Water evaporizes but the solids don't they stay in the tank, but than you top the tank of again with fresh water adding more solids. Thus conductivity rises and the EC meter can tell you when it is time for a water change. The accuracy of the numbers isn't drasticaly important even if its off for a few mili siemens.

No what is EC calibration and how does it work? The device is electronic and has an acuracy of maybe 2%. This means if you calibrate at a certain value lets say for convenience 1000 and press the hold button. Than the meter is most accurate at 1000.. Now you put the meter in another solution that read 1800. Than the acuracy is 2% of 800 = 16 off either up or down. If you know what you are measuring for with intentionaly adding solids and you need this rather precise and 1800 is your desired end point, obviously you shouldn't calibrate on 1000 but rather closer to the 1800 to get more acurate data. This because you know what you are adding and want to know how much you did add.

In case you don't know what is added and you have to take that as it comes, than you can sufice with knowing am i Low or am i High.. The 2% inacuracy is not of life threatening importancy..

But simply put, you could calibrated it on your set end point in the tank water.  But than the reading again is most inacurate when you measure your starting point, since you go all the way down and have to take 2% inacuracy in acount. Since lowest number is the safest, makes inacurace even less important. 

You see? there always will be a factory set % inacuracy no mater where you calibrate. The further away you measure from the calibration to more inacurate the reading.

Than if you are dead set on calibrating for your own peace of mind, calibrate somewhere in the middle of your set lowest and set highest.


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## zozo (6 Jan 2019)

I might add, there are different TDS meters on the market it depends on the make and the use.. Some have a hardcoded electronic calibration point to reset it back when its off. But than the manual says so and prescribes what solution to use. But these are the more professional and more expensive meters. If the manual doesn't say so, it has a hold button and a multitude of calibration ranges. 

Calibration fluid, can also tell you that the probe is dirty when the reading is off, than it needs cleaning and recalibration. But it shouldn't, cleaning it after each use prevents it getting dirty. Rinse it off with demi water.. That should read 0 btw.

That's also a way to check up on its acuracy, calibrate it at a high point and put it back in demi water. If it doesn't read 0 than you know its % deviation.


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## Lee iley (6 Jan 2019)

Parablennius said:


> Lee, this may or may not help you but this is how I use mine.
> My tap is consistently around an INDICATED 50ppm, except for when the drought was biting, it has now returned to normal levels.
> At waterchange day my tank TDS is around 170. I change 60% with 50ppm tap which resets tank to around 95 TDS, give or take. I then add a bit of GH and KH. Then using APF ferts and following their guidelines, each of the three doses of NPK adds around an INDICATED 18ppm x 3, the trace x 3 adds a bit more. By waterchange day I'm back to my 170 ish TDS  from GH, KH and ferts and do a reset with my 60% tap at 50ppm back to my around 95 ppm. This has worked consistently for me and is fairly predictable. What I will say re. TDS pens is that I have a cheap, non adjustable one and a more expensive calibratable one and I found that following repeated tests of the SAME WATER, the cheap one was more consistent and as zozo has said, actual figures aren't that important but it gives a guide to what's happening. Can't help with the shrimp, though, sorry. I don't keep them.


Thanks for that what do you use to add GH and kH into tour tank. 

Cheers Lee


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## Parablennius (6 Jan 2019)

Lee iley said:


> Thanks for that what do you use to add GH and kH into tour tank.
> 
> Cheers Lee


1Tspn CaNO3,  1/2 tspn KHCO3 into 200 litres. I only add because my tap is very, very soft. Lucky me!


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## Lee iley (6 Jan 2019)

Parablennius said:


> 1Tspn CaNO3,  1/2 tspn KHCO3 into 200 litres. I only add because my tap is very, very soft. Lucky me!


My tap reads 155ppm tds so will I need to add aswel or just leave be?


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## Parablennius (6 Jan 2019)

Lee iley said:


> My tap reads 155ppm tds so will I need to add aswel or just leave be?


Dunno, it depends what that 155 ppm is made up with?


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## Lee iley (6 Jan 2019)

Parablennius said:


> Dunno, it depends what that 155 ppm is made up with?


How would I find that out. On my water report?


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## Parablennius (6 Jan 2019)

I use test kits, but these are the only things I test for, GH and KH. Only because I view calcium and carbonates as part of my ferts. I think it helps my vals.


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## Lee iley (6 Jan 2019)

Just done a 50% water change and also added loads more plants at the same time. So I disturbed the soil. TDS reading before water change was 178ppm. TDS reading after water change 164ppm not a big difference. Could this be because of the soil been disturbed due to planting new plants?


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## jameson_uk (6 Jan 2019)

Lee iley said:


> Just done a 50% water change and also added loads more plants at the same time. So I disturbed the soil. TDS reading before water change was 178ppm. TDS reading after water change 164ppm not a big difference. Could this be because of the soil been disturbed due to planting new plants?


Could be anything.  Whilst it is likely that they are basically the same it is possible that the water is now completely different...

One way of looking at is thinking that TDS is the number of fruit pieces in your tank.   You put 178 bits of orange in there and your measurement is 178.  If you now have a reading of 164 this could mean you have removed 14 pieces of orange but it could also mean you have removed all 178 pieces of orange and added 164 pieces of apple.  It is just the total and on its own it isn't much use.

I used the calibration solution to validate my assumption that the cheapy meter I got was as useful as a random number generator.

I think shrimp keepers are obsessed with TDS based on keeping them in RO water and adding back minerals.   In doing this TDS does become useful as you can use it to reconstitute to the desired values (you are adding the only things to the water so the total measurement is showing what you have added).

I use my TDS pen as a guide of how much RO to cut my tap water with.  My tap water is consistently about 320 TDS but more importantly GH 12.  I want my GH to be 8 so I mix till it is about 220.  I also use it as an indication of any changes.  If my tap water suddenly became 100 or 500 I would start looking into it before doing water changes.


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## Lee iley (6 Jan 2019)

jameson_uk said:


> Could be anything.  Whilst it is likely that they are basically the same it is possible that the water is now completely different...
> 
> One way of looking at is thinking that TDS is the number of fruit pieces in your tank.   You put 178 bits of orange in there and your measurement is 178.  If you now have a reading of 164 this could mean you have removed 14 pieces of orange but it could also mean you have removed all 178 pieces of orange and added 164 pieces of apple.  It is just the total and on its own it isn't much use.
> 
> ...


The only reason I got this TDS PEN was because I was loosing shrimp so just wanted to see if my TDS was high enough from the tap/My tank water. Are  TDS and GH 2 totally different parameters. Reason I ask because do I need both to be a high number to keep my cherry shrimp. 
Thanks lee


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## Lee iley (6 Jan 2019)

used the calibration solution to validate my assumption that the cheapy meter I got was as useful as a random number generator. 

So you only used solution to test your cheap meter? And not because you needed to use it?


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## Lee iley (6 Jan 2019)

jameson_uk said:


> Could be anything.  Whilst it is likely that they are basically the same it is possible that the water is now completely different...
> 
> One way of looking at is thinking that TDS is the number of fruit pieces in your tank.   You put 178 bits of orange in there and your measurement is 178.  If you now have a reading of 164 this could mean you have removed 14 pieces of orange but it could also mean you have removed all 178 pieces of orange and added 164 pieces of apple.  It is just the total and on its own it isn't much use.
> 
> ...


So basically the lower the TDS the lower the GH is?


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## dw1305 (6 Jan 2019)

Hi all,





Lee iley said:


> So basically the lower the TDS the lower the GH is?


There isn't any direct comparison between them, but for most tap water they are correlated, because both TDS and dGH/dKH relate directly to the amount of Ca++ and HCO3- ions in the water.

The Ca++ and HCO3- ions both come from the dissolution of limestone (CaCO3) by rain-water, this may have occurred millions of years ago or it may have been geologically very recently. Most aquifers in the S. and E. of the UK are pretty pure limestones, and the same applies to reservoirs like Chew Valley Lake, Rutland and Grafham water etc. and most of the rivers (Thames, Great Ouse etc.) from which water is abstracted.

As you go N. and W. there are fewer limestones, and more rain, so water supplies are often from reservoirs in hard rock, like the Elan Valley,  Thirlmere, Ladybower, Stitithians etc. and these provide  softer water with lower TDS.

Although some compounds are added to water  by the water companies (NaOH, phosphoric acid, sodium fluoride etc) they have a relatively small effect on TDS (although the NaOH is deliberately added to raise the pH above pH7).

This isn't necessarily true for other countries (<"USA">, New Zealand, the Mediterranean countries) where different geology can lead to different ratios of solutes in the water.

cheers Darrel


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## jameson_uk (6 Jan 2019)

Lee iley said:


> So you only used solution to test your cheap meter? And not because you needed to use it?



To satisfy my curiosity yes and to see what sort of accuracy the devices had.  I also used it to calibrate my new device but it was basically spot on anyway.


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## Lee iley (6 Jan 2019)

jameson_uk said:


> To satisfy my curiosity yes and to see what sort of accuracy the devices had.  I also used it to calibrate my new device but it was basically spot on anyway.


Ok thank you for the replys I appreciate it. So I won't need solution to calibrate my tds pen. This might sound stupid but the reading I am getting from mine is just numbers. Which is telling me I have a low TDS reading from my tap and in my tank water. What can I do to raise these numbers? Or do I not need to raise them?


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## jameson_uk (7 Jan 2019)

Lee iley said:


> Ok thank you for the replys I appreciate it. So I won't need solution to calibrate my tds pen. This might sound stupid but the reading I am getting from mine is just numbers. Which is telling me I have a low TDS reading from my tap and in my tank water. What can I do to raise these numbers? Or do I not need to raise them?


It is just a number.  Do you know what your GH / KH are?  If not I suggest you get a test kit to measure that.  A TDS reading isn't going to give you any answers but rather point you where to look or give you an indication things have changed.


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## Lee iley (7 Jan 2019)

jameson_uk said:


> It is just a number.  Do you know what your GH / KH are?  If not I suggest you get a test kit to measure that.  A TDS reading isn't going to give you any answers but rather point you where to look or give you an indication things have changed.


My water report is telling me my GH is 6.5 and kH  is the same isn't it? But havnt tested my actual tank water for GH/kH 

Cheers Lee


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## zozo (7 Jan 2019)

Funny to know actualy  Don't you have an EC meter, but you happen to have a multimeter?

it might help to understand the EC meter a bit better, what it does and how the number it gives is created.
Think of Electrical conductivity, can not be determinated without knowing its resistance. Try this..

Fill a small square plastic container with a layer of water.

Now we need lenght, width and depth in cm.

Assume 30cm long, 20cm wide and 2cm water in it.

Take a multimeter and switch it to measuring Ohm (Resistance) symbol is *Ω*

Touch both leads of the multimeter to the water one at each end of the containers lenght.

Assume we measure 33Ω

First we need the area of the width and depth: 20 x 2 cm = 40 cm²

Now we need to devide the lenght with Ω and the square to get at the conductivity in units of siemens per meter

 30 / 33 / 40 = 0.0227 Siemens per meter.

Convert the conductivity to microsiemens per cm by multiplying by 10.000.

0.0227 x 10.000 = 227 µS

If you like to convert that number to PPM - TDS see bellow
https://www.lenntech.com/calculators/conductivity/tds_engels.htm


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## dw1305 (7 Jan 2019)

Hi all, 





Lee iley said:


> How would I find that out. On my water report?


Yes you can, it is posted in your other thread, it has values for <"hardness (this is really the dKH) and calcium (Ca)">.

The hardness values (as mg l-1 of CaCO3) are min. 63, mean. 102, max. 177.
Calcium (Ca) (mg L-1) values are 18.3, 30.8 & 51.1 respectively.
Conductivity (microS.) is 160, 257 and 406.
Hardness is given as "slightly hard" and you have a "degrees Clark" hardness value of 7.14.
From the other thread.





dw1305 said:


> As @Parablennius suggests that is a lot of variation in water hardness, so you have supplies from more than one source. Because you have virtually no nitrate in your supply the harder water is almost certainly from a deep limestone aquifer, and the softer water from a moorland reservoir.


I'll start with the degrees Clark hardness (degrees Clark is also called "English Degrees"), you can convert that to dKH/dGH by dividing by 1.24, so 7.14 equates to about 5.75 dGH/dKH.  Again the working are back in the <"other thread">. 





dw1305 said:


> The best summary of water hardness I've found are still the ones on "the Krib" <"Water Hardness"> and <"Hardness (incl. History">, mainly because they include the history and definition of the units.


If you want to work out the maximum, minimum and mean values, this thread (I got the formulae etc from the "Krib threads") has the <"workings for my tap water at home">. 

The main differences would be my tap water is a lot harder and much more consistent through-out the year (it always comes from a deep limestone aquifer).  The home tap water is good for Cherry Shrimps and _Vallisneria, _but the rain-water (that I use in the tanks) is too soft for either of them in the winter, <"I also get a lot of shell attrition on the Ramshorn snails">. 

cheers Darrel


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## Lee iley (7 Jan 2019)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, Yes you can, it is posted in your other thread, it has values for <"hardness (this is really the dKH) and calcium (Ca)">.
> 
> The hardness values (as mg l-1 of CaCO3) are min. 63, mean. 102, max. 177.
> Calcium (Ca) (mg L-1) values are 18.3, 30.8 & 51.1 respectively.
> ...


The hardness values on my report. How does this contribute to my water? Probably a stupid question really but does this make up my GH? Or contribute to my TDS. I appreciate you replying Darrel if it wasn't for you I wouldn't know how to convert my hardness Clarke into GH and conductivity into TDS. All these letters and numbers are mind blowing.is calcium a big factor in my water. On my water report which ate the important ones I should be looking at. Conductivity/ calcium/ PH / hardness clarke/ which others. Also do I have to convert every reading on the report to get a ppm figure? 

Cheers Lee


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## Kalum (7 Jan 2019)

i'll leave the guys above to explain it all better than i can but to cut to the point, your water should be more than fine for red cherry shrimp to live and breed in. It's very similar to my tank parameters after my very soft water has added calcium added


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## dw1305 (7 Jan 2019)

Hi all,





Kalum said:


> but to cut to the point, your water should be more than fine for red cherry shrimp to live and breed in. It's very similar to my tank parameters after my very soft water has added calcium added


That would be my thought as well. 





Lee iley said:


> The hardness values on my report. How does this contribute to my water? Probably a stupid question really but does this make up my GH? Or contribute to my TDS.


It does both.

*TDS*
The ppm TDS value (really electrically conductivity) is a just measure of all the salts (ions) in solutions. What we call "water" isn't pure H2O, but a <"dilute solution with water as a solvent">.

Pure H2O is to all intents and purposes an electrical insulator, it doesn't conduct electricity. If you test DI water with a conductivity meter it will read less than 5 microS (3 ppm TDS), conversely sea water has a lot of salts (mainly salt NaCl, about 33 ppt.) and it is an efficient  conductor of electricity, (it would have a conductivity of ~50,000 microS).

A lot of salts are highly soluble in water, including the ones we use a fertilisers. All plants, even terrestrial ones, can only take up nutrients as ions from solution.

*Hardness*
The assumption is that the hardness/dHG/dKH are the same, because they all relate to how much calcium carbonate (CaCO3) is dissolved in the water. One unit of dGH, and dKH, are both equal to 17.86 ppm CaCO3.

Limestone (calcium carbonate) isn't very soluble (technically it is only soluble in weak acids), but because rain water absorbs some CO2, it is a weak acid until it has dissolved some bases, almost always CaCO3 in the UK. The remaining, undissolved limestone, acts as a "buffer" that can go into solution and ensures that new rain water arriving becomes harder. This dissolution of limestone by rain-water is how you get caves, tufa springs and limestone pavement etc formed.

When water collects in limestone geology ("aquifers") it will become fully saturated with Ca and HCO3- ions, giving it a pH of pH8, a hardness of about 18dKH/dGH and a conductivity of 650 - 800 microS. If these values are higher you have other stronger bases present, if the aquifer values are lower there is some calcium carbonate present, but you might have very high rainfall, a very hard limestone (like the Carboniferous age limestone) or a sand-stone aquifer with only small amounts of CaCO3 present.

If your tap water doesn't have any carbonate buffering (dGH/dKH),  and a low TDS value you can say that it has not encountered any limestone in its journey from rain-water to your tap. Because limestones are porous, upland reservoirs are almost always in non-calcareous rocks and these are the principle source of soft water in the UK.

cheers Darrel


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## Lee iley (7 Jan 2019)

Kalum said:


> i'll leave the guys above to explain it all better than i can but to cut to the point, your water should be more than fine for red cherry shrimp to live and breed in. It's very similar to my tank parameters after my very soft water has added calcium added


I like the simple answers haha. What do you add to your water for calcium mate?

Cheers Lee


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## Lee iley (7 Jan 2019)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,That would be my thought as well. It does both.
> 
> *TDS*
> The ppm TDS value (really electrically conductivity) is a just measure of all the salts (ions) in solutions. What we call "water" isn't pure H2O, but a <"dilute solution with water as a solvent">.
> ...


Thanks Darrel for the replys. All this water chemistry blows my mind. You can look to far into it I suppose. What is carbonate buffering? 

Cheers Lee


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## Kalum (7 Jan 2019)

Calcium sulphate (CaSO4)

But you don't need to worry about adding that, the main things I learned with my first shrimp tank is they like stability and its when parameters swing around that you see deaths

Once you know nothing is killing them (ammonia, nitrite, copper etc...) just aim to keep things steady and stop making changes and just feed a good calcium supplement a couple of times a week, I've found they thrive and breed more when they're fed regularly rather than just surviving on algae etc....


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## Lee iley (7 Jan 2019)

Kalum said:


> Calcium sulphate (CaSO4)
> 
> But you don't need to worry about adding that, the main things I learned with my first shrimp tank is they like stability and its when parameters swing around that you see deaths
> 
> Once you know nothing is killing them (ammonia, nitrite, copper etc...) just aim to keep things steady and stop making changes and just feed a good calcium supplement a couple of times a week, I've found they thrive and breed more when they're fed regularly rather than just surviving on algae etc....


I appreciate everything every one has said on here. But I get mixed reports. Some saying my TDS and GH is to low for cherry shrimp.
I have had cherry shrimp since July last year lost a few at first then things went brilliant breeding like crazy from 10 shrimp I have now 150 or so. Then over the last couple of weeks I have lost about 15 shrimp. The only change I made was getting a pair of rams and wen I realised they was eating my shrimp I took them bk. Then did 1 big 80% water change and I have lost a few since that. I haven't messed with any water chemistry. So you are saying my TDS which is from the tap 155 and GH 6.5 is ok for my shrimp. Does kH matter because from what I have read it doesn't matter. 

Cheers Lee


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## Lee iley (7 Jan 2019)

I feed my shrimp every day flake/ algae wafer/ tropical granules also. I'm going to try some knettle leaves what else is a good source of calcium. I have 2 big pieces of cuttle bone in the tank aswel.


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## dw1305 (7 Jan 2019)

Hi all,





Lee iley said:


> What is carbonate buffering?


It is just the reserve of limestone. A buffered system is where you have a weak acid and a weak base that haven't gone fully into solution.

In this case there is a reservoir (the buffer) of undissolved CaCO3, as you add acid more calcium (Ca++) and bicarbonate (HCO3-) ions enter solution, and maintain the stable pH. The amount of calcium and bicarbonate ions that remain in solution is dependent upon the amount of CO2 in solution, so if you warm the water it can hold less gas and solid calcium carbonate "scale" is precipitated (like when you boil a kettle, or have a shower).

If you can add a strong base, like caustic soda (sodium hydroxide (NaOH)), this doesn't have any buffering effect, when you add it to water it all goes into solution as Na+ and OH- ions, these are both alkaline (bases), so the more you add the higher the pH will become and the more caustic the solution will become.  Same would apply to a strong acid like hydrochloric acid (HCl) it will disassociate into H+ and Cl- ions, the pH will fall and it will keep falling.

If you add HCl to limestone it will "fizz" as the calcium carbonate is converted into CO2, H2O and CaCl. 





Lee iley said:


> I have 2 big pieces of cuttle bone in the tank aswel.


I don't think it is a calcium or hardness issue, basically if the new water was softer (more acid) it would just dissolve more cuttle bone (this is your carbonate buffer).

cheers Darrel


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## Kalum (7 Jan 2019)

Lee iley said:


> I appreciate everything every one has said on here. But I get mixed reports. Some saying my TDS and GH is to low for cherry shrimp.
> I have had cherry shrimp since July last year lost a few at first then things went brilliant breeding like crazy from 10 shrimp I have now 150 or so. Then over the last couple of weeks I have lost about 15 shrimp. The only change I made was getting a pair of rams and wen I realised they was eating my shrimp I took them bk. Then did 1 big 80% water change and I have lost a few since that. I haven't messed with any water chemistry. So you are saying my TDS which is from the tap 155 and GH 6.5 is ok for my shrimp. Does kH matter because from what I have read it doesn't matter.
> 
> Cheers Lee



Your GH and TDS are both fine as they are and shouldn't be the reason your shrimp are dying, shrimp go through cycles and you'll occasionally get a few dying off, a lot of people understandably start changing things and see even more die off as a result, if your parameters have stayed the same and they've bred and thrived in it then keep it the same as that's what they've always known so will be accustomed to it

Don't go chasing numbers unless you know there is something definitely wrong and know exactly how to fix it


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## Kalum (7 Jan 2019)

Shrimp king do a mineral food which is good


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## jameson_uk (7 Jan 2019)

Lee iley said:


> I appreciate everything every one has said on here. But I get mixed reports. Some saying my TDS and GH is to low for cherry shrimp.
> I have had cherry shrimp since July last year lost a few at first then things went brilliant breeding like crazy from 10 shrimp I have now 150 or so. Then over the last couple of weeks I have lost about 15 shrimp. The only change I made was getting a pair of rams and wen I realised they was eating my shrimp I took them bk. Then did 1 big 80% water change and I have lost a few since that. I haven't messed with any water chemistry. So you are saying my TDS which is from the tap 155 and GH 6.5 is ok for my shrimp. Does kH matter because from what I have read it doesn't matter.
> 
> Cheers Lee


First off I would largely ignore TDS for the moment.  GH6 should be ok for cherry shrimp and the fact they have already bred lots over a prolonged period of time shows it is fine.  Most breeders seem to go for a GH of between 6 and 8 for cherries.

GH problems normally manifest themselves as molting problems and this would have put a big dent in your colony to start with and you would have noticed multiple deaths before now.


If you have had lots of unexplained deaths then this is almost certainly down to something else.  It is possible the rams could have introduced something to the tank or you might have sprayed something on the vicinity of the tank?   The other thing is that these could just be old age if you have had the shrimp for a while and they were quite large when you got them.

What is actually happening with the shrimp?   Are you still seeing deaths?  What is you water change schedule?


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## Lee iley (7 Jan 2019)

jameson_uk said:


> First off I would largely ignore TDS for the moment.  GH6 should be ok for cherry shrimp and the fact they have already bred lots over a prolonged period of time shows it is fine.  Most breeders seem to go for a GH of between 6 and 8 for cherries.
> 
> GH problems normally manifest themselves as molting problems and this would have put a big dent in your colony to start with and you would have noticed multiple deaths before now.
> 
> ...


My water changing schedule is 50% every sat/sun. over the last 2 weeks I have suddenly lost about 15 shrimp some big some small. Out of the 15 I lost about 6 of them was to the rams before I took them bk. Since I took them bk about 8 days ago I have lost more shrimp 1 to 2 a day. 2 of the ones I lost had a white band across it's back. Not lost any for 3 days now. So hopefully things are settling down. I have 2 berried females aswel at the minuite. I am probably looking to much into it. But I've worked hard to get my colony the way it is and my tank looking as good as it is. 
Cheers Lee


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## Lee iley (7 Jan 2019)

Kalum said:


> Shrimp king do a mineral food which is good


Thank you you have helped a lot and put my mind at rest. Also you make it sound simple aswel without all the science that I don't under stand haha. Wish I could understand it though.


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## Kalum (7 Jan 2019)

It's taken me a year and every mistake under the sun including doing exactly what you are now to have a slight understanding of it all and I still probably only understand about 10% of it  always learning

Its funny when I look back and read the advice given to me by some on here which I either didn't understand at the time or decided to not follow and it's all making sense where I went wrong now... Funny that eh lol!


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