# Radion fresh water



## Rabbit229 (15 Jul 2015)

just set up my ecosmart live for my radion lights what a cool light system. Very high tech, well it's a bit to complicated for me as I don't know what spectrum to have set up for plant growth
Is they any one here that has a schedule to shear
Awesome system. The thunder storm has a cool affect  feels like xmas


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## Tim Harrison (15 Jul 2015)

It's an awesome light, but it takes some getting used to, there are so many variables. Maybe PM Mr. Tea Pot I'm sure he can help...I'm still trying to get the hang of mine too.


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## Rabbit229 (15 Jul 2015)

How long do you have your lights on troi


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## Tim Harrison (16 Jul 2015)

Well...I still haven't filled my tank up yet http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/new-shallow-scape.37490/ but I plan to have the light on for 6hrs @ around 6500K at 70% ish power until the tank becomes biologically stable, with a 30min ramp up and down...but I don't really know what I'm doing yet, so I'll be paying close attention and tweaking as I go...best ask someone with much more experience really...


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## Rabbit229 (16 Jul 2015)

It looks awsome troi


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## Rabbit229 (16 Jul 2015)

Come on radion ppl! You know who you are


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## ian_m (16 Jul 2015)

Rabbit229 said:


> I don't know what spectrum to have set up for plant growth


Plants largely don't care about spectrum they use light. Marketeers care about spectrum as it is another tick point in rather useless marketing gimmicks.

Choose your spectrum that makes the plants look good, probably more red/green than blue, what ever makes the plants look good. Too much blue and will look washed out. Plants will adapt to what ever you provide. Remember to keep starting light very very low and short time (maybe 20% for 4 hours) or else the plants will not have time to adapt to their new conditions and melt and feed the algae.

If you really want to maximise growth per watt of light then sodium street lights are perfect (ask the pot growers) plants will grow like crazy but look like sh*te.


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## Rabbit229 (16 Jul 2015)

yes I new a guy who grew under high pressure sodium lamps, 

Ian am glad you replied to this thread, ive got them set at 100% for 12 h per day' over £100 worth of plants down the drain!
When is a good time to turn them up? Once I see growth


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## ian_m (17 Jul 2015)

Rabbit229 said:


> When is a good time to turn them up? Once I see growth


Probably after about a month, or if you start seeing growth. I suffered diatoms couple of weeks in, despite having lowly T8 tubes and reflectors turned around to deflect light the light level was clearly too high. Ottos scoffed all the diatoms. Then over period of weeks turned reflectors around and increased lighting period. No further problems, completely algae free.

Also a lot of aquatic plants are grown emmersed (out of water, so no algae, no snails etc) and do often start melting when plonked in water as they adjust from 400ppm CO2 in air to 30ppm Co2 in water. So when I get new plants that have been grown emmersed I turn the light period down for a week or two.

If plants are grown underwater (as indicated on their label for respectable suppliers) I just plonk in and leave light alone. They often start growing in a week or two.

Oh, before you turn your lights up you must make sure you CO2 levels are spot on all over the tank and ferts dosed appropriately or else plants will die and algae will flourish...

If you have no fish, you can crank that CO2 way way up whilst fiddling with drop checkers.


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## Rabbit229 (17 Jul 2015)

I've got about 3bubbles per second feeding into  2 bubble counters but the drop checker is still blue


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## ian_m (17 Jul 2015)

Should be like this....oops....


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## Rabbit229 (17 Jul 2015)

That's what I have got. I've got my bubbles running a constant stream now.


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## ian_m (17 Jul 2015)

Test if you can by catching CO2 bubbles in the bubble counter to see if it does change colour. I did this when having issues put the output of bubble counter into the tank so bubbled under drop checker and it went yellow in a very short time. Proved checker was working and my dissolving method and/or distribution was cwap.

Sorted with in line diffuser and a power head and drop checker goes green where ever it is placed in the tank.


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## Rabbit229 (17 Jul 2015)

That's now


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## Rabbit229 (17 Jul 2015)

No life stock yet but I've been told my water is cycled due to the environment substrait. Soon is my co2 is right I'll ad some shrimps


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## ian_m (17 Jul 2015)

Rabbit229 said:


> No life stock yet but I've been told my water is cycled due to the environment substrait


Errr no. Will take 4-8 weeks to mature a filter. If you add fish/shrimps right now they will all suffer a painful death due to ammonia. Don't bother with all the fishless cycling lark, more often than not the additional ammonia just kills the maturing bacteria in your filter and the tank never cycles.
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/nitrogen-cycle
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/fishless-cycling

Well done on drop checker. Tomorrow move it somewhere else, eg down bottom back left etc in the tank and verify it is just as green.


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## Andy D (17 Jul 2015)

Injection rate seems quite low for the size of tank you have. Drop checker could still be blue as there is not enough CO2 being added.


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## Rabbit229 (20 Jul 2015)

ian_m said:


> Errr no. Will take 4-8 weeks to mature a filter. If you add fish/shrimps right now they will all suffer a painful death due to ammonia. Don't bother with all the fishless cycling lark, more often than not the additional ammonia just kills the maturing bacteria in your filter and the tank never cycles.
> http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/nitrogen-cycle
> http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/fishless-cycling
> 
> Well done on drop checker. Tomorrow move it somewhere else, eg down bottom back left etc in the tank and verify it is just as green.


I spoke to a sponser from here who sells shrimp, I called there shop on Friday and they said if I'm using environment soil then the tank is ready to put shrimp in immediately soon as it cleared up. I was quite supprized about what I was told and was ready to buy right away! Thought I'd get some other advice on here before I did


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## ian_m (20 Jul 2015)

Rabbit229 said:


> water is cycled due to the environment substrate


What exactly is it and how does it get your filters instantly mature ?

If you are in an emergency (which I have been before) you can (if lucky) get away using daily large water changes (50% ?) and/or using Kordon Amquel and/or Prime which will remove ammonia. However removing the ammonia can make the filters take even longer to mature as ammonia is foodstuff for the ammonia to nitrite feeding flora.

Or you can borrow someone else's filter sponges. I seeded (oh err missus...) my mates tank by giving him the water contents + yuck from my external filter in a bucket which he then circulated round his new filter filling the sponges and floss with suitable nitrifying flora.


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## Rabbit229 (20 Jul 2015)

Environment Aquarium Soil is an active substrate consisting of various fired and sterilised earths that was especially developed for aquarium use. It naturally lowers and stabilises the pH (depending on the parameters of the water you use, the pH will be lowered to 5.5 to 6.5) as well as water hardness and thus creates optimal conditions for softwater plants and animals in your tank.

The special properties of Environment Aquarium Soil make your water crystal clear. This soil is rich in natural nutrients providing your plants and mosses with everything they need to grow healthily and to develop lush colours.* The fulvic acids contained in this substrate help create an optimal environment for plants, animals and microorganisms from day one.*


Instructions of use
• Do not rinse before use
• Spread the substrate evenly, or create your individual layout
• Fill in water carefully and slowly

Recommended soil height:  4 cm
Content: available in 4 and 9 Liter - Bags
Colour: black-brown
Grain size: Normal-Type 2 - 4 mm


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## ian_m (20 Jul 2015)

Rabbit229 said:


> *The fulvic acids contained in this substrate help create an optimal environment for plants, animals and microorganisms from day one.*


But you still have to get the microorganisms from somewhere first ? Either someone else's filter or wait 6-8 weeks for them grow naturally.

It is just bog standard enriched substrate, which as it says is a great start for plants (and animals ???) and microorganisms. It does not supply the microorganisms (or plants) that is your job.


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## Edvet (20 Jul 2015)

Rabbit you're free to believe it,but if you go through life believing all the advertisements tell you, i am afraid you will be disapointed regularly. Especialy in hobbiist environments claimes are never/seldom proven. This varies from lights, to soils and foods


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## Rabbit229 (20 Jul 2015)

The thing is, the shop I bought the substrate from was trying to sell me shrimp a few days after the tank was installed. it's a real shame that we are being misled to benifit others pockets


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## ian_m (20 Jul 2015)

Rabbit229 said:


> was trying to sell me shrimp a few days after the tank was installed.


That's because they will probably all die. Then he can sell you a test kit at £xx, very carefully not selling you an ammonia test kit, as your water was clearly not good enough, followed by some expensive chemicals and even more shrimp....


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## ian_m (20 Jul 2015)

The thing about this planted tank lark is patience and a bit more patience and finally even more patience. All these nice planted tanks didn't happen over night. I was not really happy with my tank and it's greenness and its growth for over a year.

Mine too ages to get like this....






But trimming got slightly ignored and got rather full....(has been major holiday trimmed, got buckets full off trimming off).


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## Rabbit229 (20 Jul 2015)

Can't wait to get trimming' sure after time I'll be like' do I have to


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## Rabbit229 (26 Jul 2015)

Some of my plants look to be melting' some leaves are have turned to mush and Java furns look to be going black.

Lights are set at 20% for 8h per day
I've been dosing salts to

As its a new planted tank could this be the salts?


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## 5678 (26 Jul 2015)

Standard answer is co2 issues. 

Try lights at 6 hours/20% and up co2 levels. Then once melt stops, up light in small increments. This worked for me.


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## Edvet (26 Jul 2015)

Could be plants grown emersed adjusting to submerged state. How often and how large do you do waterchanges? To much ferts shouldn't be harmfull. Do you have full tanks shots?


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## Rabbit229 (26 Jul 2015)

I've not done a water change yet. Tanks been running 2 weeks and only started with the salts 4-5 days ago


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## Edvet (27 Jul 2015)

Uhhhh...... go do waterchanges asap, in your case 50% twice a week at least.  Have you read any of the articles in the tutorial section?


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## Patrick Buff. (27 Jul 2015)

Hi Rabbit,

Same like Ed, perform WC.
Turn your light back on at 100% only for the duration around 4 1/2 hour's and build up from that weekly. Light duration is the key not the intensity to start.
Keep the CO2 high and use ferts.
Nice tank and setup.

Patrick


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## Rabbit229 (27 Jul 2015)

Cryptocoryne Parva Has almost melted completely


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## Rabbit229 (27 Jul 2015)

Edvet said:


> Uhhhh...... go do waterchanges asap, in your case 50% twice a week at least.  Have you read any of the articles in the tutorial section?


50% 2 times per week? Why so much at this stage of a new set up


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## Wisey (27 Jul 2015)

Rabbit229 said:


> 50% 2 times per week? Why so much at this stage of a new set up



For a high tech with EI, the norm is to change 50% every day for the first week, then 50% three times in the second week, then by week 3 you can go down to the single 50% change on the Sunday. I have a lot of tannins still, so I did a few extra changes in week 3, but now in my fourth week I just did the single 50% change.


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## Patrick Buff. (27 Jul 2015)

To equalize your waterparameteres and to stabilize your tank. You can read in the tutorial section everything about it, great articles.
Same why I said something your light (duration versus intensity).
Crypts sometimes melt (leave the roots in the substrat, most of the times they bounce back) but parva also needs a lot of light.

Patrick


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## Sk3lly (27 Jul 2015)

Wisey said:


> For a high tech with EI, the norm is to change 50% every day for the first week, then 50% three times in the second week, then by week 3 you can go down to the single 50% change on the Sunday. I have a lot of tannins still, so I did a few extra changes in week 3, but now in my fourth week I just did the single 50% change.


This is very true from what i see on here. The fact is though i think this is an 800litre aquarium. Not your relatively standard 60litre. Are you seriously telling me you'd perform daily 50% water changes on an 800litre tank if you had one?? Im with Rabit on this one. Would need to be an exceptional reason to make me do this many changes. I think id be inclined to stick to just the standard one 50% change per week, unless i saw algae


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Wisey (27 Jul 2015)

Sk3lly said:


> This is very true from what i see on here. The fact is though i think this is an 800litre aquarium. Not your relatively standard 60litre. Are you seriously telling me you'd perform daily 50% water changes on an 800litre tank if you had one?? Im with Rabit on this one. Would need to be an exceptional reason to make me do this many changes. I think id be inclined to stick to just the standard one 50% change per week, unless i saw algae
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I'm just quoting the standard from the EI article. I guess if I had an 800 litre aquarium I probably wouldn't want to do it, especially if I was on a water meter! Then again, if I was on a water meter I don't think I would buy an 800 litre tank. My point was that water changes need to happen, Rabbit is 2 weeks in and has not done a single water change. Even if you don't do the 50%, some water changes need to happen.


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## Sk3lly (27 Jul 2015)

Wisey said:


> I'm just quoting the standard from the EI article. I guess if I had an 800 litre aquarium I probably wouldn't want to do it, especially if I was on a water meter! Then again, if I was on a water meter I don't think I would buy an 800 litre tank. My point was that water changes need to happen, Rabbit is 2 weeks in and has not done a single water change. Even if you don't do the 50%, some water changes need to happen.


Totally agree. I also think some articles although theoretically correct, cannot always be followed perfectly. Its a tricky one


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Wisey (27 Jul 2015)

I live in Scotland, no water meter, so I would just do the changes, but you need a really nice water change system where you are not carrying water around on a tank that size. Rabbit, have you got a system set up for doing your changes?


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## alto (27 Jul 2015)

If you're doing what seems the modern version of "typical high tech" then it's either lots of water changes while tank establishes or have a very good water polishing system in place ... back in the day, tanks started with loads of (cheap) fast growing stem plants while getting established, crypts & "sensitive" plants were added later (after a few weeks to months), those T8 lights put out a lot less intensity so less CO2 demand etc, etc

From my recollections, Amano did frequent 50% water changes even on his big tanks, though as the tanks matured, those 50% water changes might be done at 7-14 day intervals ... he also used considerable amounts of charcoal in his filters.

With new soils/substrates, melting plants, there are a lot of DOC's entering the water column.

If on a water meter, then a large tank can be established with just a partial fill of the tank so water volume is easily reduced by half.


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## ian_m (27 Jul 2015)

Large tank water changes is reasonably easy apart from cost 400l of metered water which is about £1.30 in my area.

1.Turn off filters and pumps.
2. Use a gravel vacuum to vacuum out 400l of water and detritus, using 16/22mm or larger pipe to either drain or lawn or garden. Some people use 1" PVC fittings to syphon out, though how you easily prime a 1" syphon will be interesting.
3. Add enough Prime or Amquel for 800l to tank.
4. Put hose pipe into tank and fill. If plants only no need to preheat water. Might want to consider raising tap water temperature if fish are present, though many including me have used hose pipe straight into the tank, drops to say 18'C or lower but fish appear fine.


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## Andy D (27 Jul 2015)

Water changes are really important. I recently set up another tank and it still surprises me how much detritus builds up in a tank with no fish.

Given the plant mass to water volume ratio a daily change is probably not needed but I would at least have started with 2-3 changes per week for the first 2 or 3 weeks.


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## Rabbit229 (28 Jul 2015)

Well I did the 50% water change and that's a lot of water to take out every day for a week 2800ltr to just flush down the drain. Plus that's a lot of work

Will this not just flush out all the goodness in my fluval filters that I'm trying to gain? I was under the impression that all that chlorine will kill the good stuf


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## Edvet (28 Jul 2015)

If you have chlorine in the water you'll need to use a dechlorinator indeed.


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## 5678 (28 Jul 2015)

You should be dosing a dechlorinator with a water change e.g Seachem Prime.


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## ian_m (28 Jul 2015)

Rabbit229 said:


> 2800ltr to just flush down the drain


Water the garden with it, that's what I do. Might as well have some use of your £8.96 of water (Southern water price is £3.20 per m3).

Might also want to consider sodium thiosulphate as dechlorinator as considerably cheaper than the likes of Prime and AmQuel. Get it from Ebay.


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## Rabbit229 (28 Jul 2015)

How do I dechlorinat 400ltr, I don't have 400ltr tub to mix the water


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## Rabbit229 (28 Jul 2015)

ian_m said:


> Water the garden with it, that's what I do.


We don't need to water the garden in Oldham, rains almost every day


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## ian_m (28 Jul 2015)

Rabbit229 said:


> How do I dechlorinat 400ltr, I don't have 400ltr tub to mix the water


You don't. First you vacuum out 50% (400l) of water, removes all the detritus as well.

Then add to the remaining 400l in the tank enough Prime/AmQuel/Thiosulphate for 800l. The double dose is extremely important.

Then add your 400l of fresh water. Done.


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## 5678 (28 Jul 2015)

Rabbit229 said:


> How do I dechlorinat 400ltr, I don't have 400ltr tub to mix the water


Just dose it into the tank as you refill.


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## ian_m (28 Jul 2015)

Rabbit229 said:


> We don't need to water the garden in Oldham, rains almost every day


Yes, but it doesn't rain nitrates, phosphates, potassium, fish poo and plant organics, all very yummy to plants and/or lawn. There is an extremely green area on my front lawn which shows the length of my waste fish water hose pipe, must get a longer pipe to water rest of lawn.


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## Edvet (28 Jul 2015)

ian_m said:


> shows the length of my waste fish water hose pipe


lol
pics or it didn't happen


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## ian_m (28 Jul 2015)

Edvet said:


> pics or it didn't happen


Doubter...


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## Edvet (28 Jul 2015)

Yup you definitly need a longer hose


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## Rabbit229 (28 Jul 2015)

Unbelievable lol


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## Rabbit229 (28 Jul 2015)

When should I run the co2? Just the 4h my light on? I know plants only take on co2 when its light but it's quite light through the day with the light off, with natural day light
Should I have the co2 starting up at 7am till 9pm or 4pm till 9pm


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## 5678 (28 Jul 2015)

People suggest 2-3 hours on before lights and then 1 hour before lights off. 

In what I've learnt so far, this seems to not be a hard and fast rule though. 

My tank is in a fairly light room and gets day light most of the day. I suffered with a lot of melt and algae until I switched to running my co2 24/7. I am toying with stopping it from lights off until around 4am though as it is fully dark in the room during that time. Just trying to save a bit of gas.


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## Rabbit229 (28 Jul 2015)

i think I'll just switch it of when the rooms in total dark ness


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## ian_m (28 Jul 2015)

You run your CO2 say 2hours before lights on so that your drop checkers are comfortably green when the lights come on. Or pH has dropped by one unit when lights come on. Both these indicate about 30ppm CO2. Running CO2 for more than lights on time is a waste of CO2 which will be considerable in a large tank.

In lower light or room light plants may or may not make use of the natural CO2 that dissolves into the water from the atmosphere giving about 3ppm dissolved. No need to add any more.


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## Wisey (28 Jul 2015)

I'm also running 24/7 after struggling with unstable CO2 during the photoperiod. It's solved problems for now. If you have no fish or shrimp I would go high and work it down lower rather than go too low and loose plants like I did. That's just my experience, I'm pretty new to this, but it's way less disappointing to over dose CO2 and then ease back than see your plants die.


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## 5678 (28 Jul 2015)

I gassed my fish when I first started using co2! Bizarrely now though I can't seem to get enough in still! Running something like 4 bubbles per second into a small but heavily planted tank and the fish don't mind at all.


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## Rabbit229 (31 Jul 2015)

Well just bought the Aqua safe best part of £20 and will only do 2.5 water changes at 400ltr a time. I can't afford this guys. And I've been recommended to do this every day lol. I'll be broke in no time.


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## Wisey (31 Jul 2015)

I use Seachem Prime, 5ml treats 200 litres! I just bought 500ml for about 18 quid. You would need 10ml for 400 litres so that means that bottle would do 50 water changes, thats almost a year once you are on to once a week 50% changes.


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## ian_m (31 Jul 2015)

Aquasafe is incompatible with Purigen if you ever decide to use it.

Prime is a good option.

Even cheaper is sodium thiosulphate. £6.50 for 1Kg at some popular auction site. You need about 0.1gr per 10l water, thus you will need 4gr per water change. You will get 250 water changes for £6.50, so about 5 years worth. Bargain.


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## ian_m (31 Jul 2015)

Rabbit229 said:


> Well just bought the Aqua safe best part of £20


£16.60 for 2 x 500ml at zooplus.co.uk, Mr Local Fishshop must have seen you coming....


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## ajm83 (31 Jul 2015)

ian_m said:


> In lower light or room light plants may or may not make use of the natural CO2 that dissolves into the water from the atmosphere giving about 3ppm dissolved. No need to add any more.



Sorry for the OT, but it's 0.5ppm according to Walstad. 

-not trying to be a smart Alec, just thought some on this board might find it interesting as 3ppm is so commonly mentioned as the equilibrium level. Actually that's what you see when the co2 from  respiration etc is taken into account.


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## 5678 (31 Jul 2015)

Rabbit229 said:


> Well just bought the Aqua safe best part of £20 and will only do 2.5 water changes at 400ltr a time. I can't afford this guys. And I've been recommended to do this every day lol. I'll be broke in no time.


Not trying to be a blahblahblahblah, honestly! But £20 on some treatment is too much? You've spent thousands on this so far!


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## Wisey (31 Jul 2015)

5678 said:


> Not trying to be a blahblahblahblah, honestly! But £20 on some treatment is too much? You've spent thousands on this so far!



To be fair, I would not want to spend £20 if the bottle was only going to last 2 weeks, unless of course it was beer!

I think the issue here firstly is the LFS price is a rip off, but that's standard. Secondly, the AquaSafe stuff is not as good value for money as something like Prime or Ian's DIY suggestion.


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## ian_m (31 Jul 2015)

The other way of course of dechlorinating 400l for water for free, IF and ONLY IF you can guarantee chloramine is not being used, is to pop 400l of water into bucket the night before and run and airstone in it for 24hours. This will outgas the chlorine pretty quickly. You can also pre-heat your water at the same time using a 500W aquarium heater. Aerating does not work for chloramine, this is being used more and more often in the UK. You can test your water with a pool chlorine test kit to verify it is chlorine free.

This guy lost over £600 worth of fish due to not dechlorinating (or testing) due to chloramine being added to his water after a water board incident.
http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/410456-22-aquariums-wiped-out/


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## Wisey (31 Jul 2015)

ian_m said:


> 400l of water into bucket



That's one big ******* bucket


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## ian_m (31 Jul 2015)

Wisey said:


> That's one big ******* bucket


Use two of these..
http://www.ampulla.co.uk/Shop-For-P...-60L---210L/210L-8-Kilo-L-Ring/p-170-129-410/
or one of these.
http://www.ampulla.co.uk/Shop-For-Plastic/IBC-Containers---1000-Litres/c-1-170-120/


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## Wisey (31 Jul 2015)

Haha, yeah, the second one could go down in Rabbits basement! Just need a good pump to get it upstairs!


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (4 Aug 2015)

Hi,
maybe some of you have seen that I am looking for a new light for my tank.
I am considering Radion 30 and I have a question about this product.
As I live in Congo we have some power lost every day (at least) and wanted to know if power goes of, do you need to reprogram every thing, or the lights save all settings (time, intensity, colors) when power goes off ?
I don't want to set my light every day.
So if someone have an experience of power lost or something else it would be nice to have his report. 

cheers


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## Rabbit229 (4 Aug 2015)

zanguli-ya-zamba said:


> Hi,
> maybe some of you have seen that I am looking for a new light for my tank.
> I am considering Radion 30 and I have a question about this product.
> As I live in Congo we have some power lost every day (at least) and wanted to know if power goes of, do you need to reprogram every thing, or the lights save all settings (time, intensity, colors) when power goes off ?
> ...


You won't need to reprogram once you set them


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## Rabbit229 (4 Aug 2015)

Still got no growth yet in my tank. The hair grass he's gained some length but not started carpeting
Bet it's been running 4 weeks now?


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## ian_m (4 Aug 2015)

Rabbit229 said:


> The hair grass he's gained some length but not started carpeting


Patience. Some of my plants when first planted appear to "stall" for quite a few weeks before starting to grow. This can be as the immersed grown plants (in air) get used to their new underwater home.

What does drop checker if placed in amongst the hair grass ?

I tied my drop checker to a stone to could move it around the bottom of my tank.


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## Andy D (4 Aug 2015)

Patience. This is key!

It can take an eternity for them to adjust and start to grow.


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## ShawnMac (4 Aug 2015)

If you can get your hands on a PAR meter that may help you set your light levels and programming. Just throwing that out there in case it hasn't been mentioned.


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## Rabbit229 (4 Aug 2015)

Well I've noticed the long grass (30cm long) is starting to spread out! It's going to mingle with the hair grass! I best take this out before it takes over


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## Wisey (5 Aug 2015)

I was in a similar situation, between 4 and 5 weeks in and really very little growth, some plants like they Hydrocotyle had shed their emmersed leaves and put out submersed leaves, but they were tiny and did not grow larger. My low light plants were growing, but anything that needed light was not. It's really tempting to push the light, but be patient. I kept it at 6 hours, but went from 20% to 30% intensity and I am seeing a little more growth on things like the Hydrocotyle and Alternanthera Reinecki Mini, but I am leaving it at that for a week, then I will try adding another 30 minutes to the duration. Small steps!


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## Rabbit229 (6 Aug 2015)

Well I'm on 100% for just 4 hours at the moment


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## ian_m (6 Aug 2015)

Rabbit229 said:


> Well I'm on 100% for just 4 hours at the moment


Perfect recipe for algae farming ....You need to start much much lower and increase over a period of months as the plants adapt.


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## Patrick Buff. (6 Aug 2015)

Keep your CO2 and ferts high. Do a lot off WC and maintenance. 
Siphon all the debris and old leaves away (this is were you get algue from, light or not). Look at you tube how George Farmer do this, explains a lot for maintenance.
Read about light in aquariums, the spectrums and the intensity of light. It will explains a lot why some people can grow anything were they lay there hands on.
Remember, light is what plants get's going on, second the equation: light,CO2 and ferts.
Happy reading and growing.

Patrick


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## Rabbit229 (6 Aug 2015)

ian_m said:


> Perfect recipe for algae farming ....You need to start much much lower and increase over a period of months as the plants adapt.


I started at 20% but nothing happening apart from some plants melting, maybe this was due to lack of water changes. I'll get the lights back down to 20% for 4h per day.
I'm on my 3rd water change in 10days. 1200ltrs  down the drain. Shame I don't have a garden to water


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## Wisey (6 Aug 2015)

My understanding is that 4 hours is the absolute minimum photoperiod that plants must have, can't remember which thread I read that on, was a while ago. I personally started with low intensity, 5.5 hours, then up to 6. I would reduce intensity back to 20-30%, but maybe go for 5 hours. You need to make small changes and observe, it takes time to see the effect, whether positive or negative, from the change you made. Going from 20% to 100% is huge change. Im a really impatient person, I want to see results, I'm really having to reign myself in. Make a small step, observe, make another small step.


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## 5678 (6 Aug 2015)

20% for 6 hours then go from there IMO.


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## Patrick Buff. (6 Aug 2015)

Rabbit leave it at 100%. The light what you are using is strong but only for shallow tanks, yours is 24 deep. You need the light to get to the bottom. If you dim it, it won't penetrate far enough to get to the bottom. They are making a mistake. How deeper a tank is, how stronger a light needs to be to get to the bottom. Look at diagrams about! (planted tank forum)

Patrick


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## Iain Sutherland (6 Aug 2015)

I have had this light running for 10 weeks plus now on my 60cm, it was a mature scape that had the churios ?spelling? (aquasky rip off) previously going very well, however ive really struggled to get the light intensity even close to what i want with this.  It is set up on the standard on-tank bracket which holds it too high, even at 100% i cant get fast growth or red stems especially around the edges.  Now added the churios back on at 100% and the rx15fw at 100% and going like the clappers.

Current feeling is it lacks real power if used on the bracket and the spread is pretty narrow. Hoping to get a PAR reading fairly soon.
I would hasten to add that unless you are 100% your co2, flow etc is 100% then i wouldnt advise this cranking it right up....


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## Rabbit229 (6 Aug 2015)

Right I'm going run it 100% for 7h per day for one week. Let's see how this plans out. 

Trial and error 

The radion lights do set 12inch from the top of the tank then it dose have 24inch to penetrate to the bottom.

Plants are waving around vigorously in the curant and c02 is in yellow

My fingers are crossed 


I'll keep a close eye on this, keep the salts going in and get 2 water changes done over the next 7 days


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## Wisey (6 Aug 2015)

It's up to you, but looking at that picture, it looks bright. Like I said before, it's easy to start lower and step up week by week, going high and causing problems will be more difficult to recover from.


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## Patrick Buff. (6 Aug 2015)

Build it up, like what I said a couple pages ago. Start around 41/2, 5 hours and increase it weekly by 20-30 minutes to 6-8 hours.
Just use a gentle flow for it.
@ Wisey- I don't want to offend you but what you see is not what plants see or getting out of it for photpsynthesis.

Patrick


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## Wisey (7 Aug 2015)

I'm pretty new to this, tank is now 6 weeks old, but what I have seen is that having CO2 right and EI levels of ferts, then a fairly low light, does not cause plant problems, it just means they grow slowly and don't develop reds, but they don't die or get covered in algae. My point was that it is easier to start cautiously and make small steps each week, than make a big step, then get some algae and have to clean that up and recover from it. I'm essentially saying what you are saying with the duration, I'm just advising caution on the intensity as well. I have my tile 30 cm from the surface which works out as about 70 cm from substrate, my tank is not huge but it is not shallow, TMC Sig 60x45x45. I'm currently getting good growth from my low light plants and slow growth from the higher light plants, but I have no algae apart from a few tiny bits of diatoms on my bogwood. I do also have a bright room though, so my plants will get some indirect light all day, hence why I run CO2 24/7 at the moment and that's been beneficial.


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## Patrick Buff. (7 Aug 2015)

Okee, it's fair to explain it futher. I normally stay away of discussions of giving advise to people. But now I see people going on a route that is not right path to follow for having a nice and a good aquarium. I think that some advise giving about light and how to use it is missing the point were it's supposed for, growing plants.
Now I'm not saying that I'm a expert but I have done a fair amount of reading over this subject and this is what I would advise you to do to.
Look up:

Par values versus waterdepth
Par values versus beam and spread
Light intensity and amounts of lumens
Light spectrum for (water)plants.
Led beam and CRI values of different types
Further:

High light does not get algue growing, bad maintenance does.
Algue belongs in aquariums. You want to keep them minimal.
Plants need light to grow. Especially red and blue, not the colors which we see or want to see.
Leds aren't as strong or perfect as we think in comparison to example T5.
Light behaves differently in water then in air.
All plants have different needs. Learn what they need or look it up.
When you dim light, it will lose very quickly it's energy and becomes inefficient.
I think, if you take the time to read a little over the subject, you will understand why some people can grow anything and others not (or just grow algue).
So I think you have re-think about what people were telling you to do. Do plants need time to adapt? Yes. Weeks or months? No way. Plants can grow as fast as there gen's are telling them. Just look in the nature around you and see how fast plants can grow.
Turn the questions around: You suffered melt of plants in the lower regions. Why? Look at somebody how has no problem at growing this plants. Ask him the how he does this.
Wisey, I don't want to offend you but look at your scape. Undemanding, low-light plants stand in the place were the light is the most strongest. The plants how need the strong light are in place were it's far less. I hope I start you thinking and start looking at scapes in a different way (how are they build, were to place plants, which ones,ect).

Patrick


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## Wisey (7 Aug 2015)

I'm here to learn, so happy to take advice. Can you clarify what you you mean about my plant positions please? I specifically put the Alternanthera Reineki Mini which needs more light at the centre of the aquarium, directly under the tile and where there was nothing to shade it. The majority of my plants don't need high light, I put in the Hygrophila which likes light to get the best colour in a position where it would get light and provide some shade to my Anubias. It needs work to thin it as it grows so quick the the lower leaves don't get as much light.

The plant I had trouble with was the Limnophila H. Yes, this does need light, ok, its not in the highest light area, but its a tall stem plant so needs to go at the back. My tissue culture plants put out new growth but the bottom melted, these were only an inch high. Since planting the Tropica stems a week ago they have put out loads of new growth and seem to be doing really well. Was that a light issue or a tissue culture issue? I don't know? It could also be a CO2 issue as I had less stability when I first started and had not moved to 24/7 at that point. All I know is that with stable CO2 and Ferts, but not high light, that plant is now growing nicely, but not fast.

I'm tempted to increase my intensity again as it has been a week at 30%, but most people on this site apart from you advise caution and patience, so for us newbies its hard to know what is best. I do personally feel that light is my limiting factor at the moment as my tile is high and my intensity low. I also notice that my plants at the front lean towards the window at the far side of the room which suggests to me that my dominant light source is the window that gives them low light all day rather than the 6 hours of the tile in the evening. They don't get any direct light from the window, it does not fall on the tank. It's hard to know whether to increase intensity, lower the tile (will I then get darker corners etc), but what ever I do, I try to do one step at a time rather than do two or three things so I know what change I made gave the result and I try not to push too hard too soon as that's what everyone seems to caution against doing.


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## Patrick Buff. (7 Aug 2015)

Wisey, about your plants it is better to do it in your journal but there is nothing wrong with your tank. I only think, if you were doing a rescape should you place the wood with those plants, on the same place? Would you give the plants a different position? And if so why?
Back to the light. You don't need to believe me but start reading about the first five points I was giving to you. In just a couple of articles you will see what I mean. About the others, I and Iain Suth. said something about the light. Do you hear them now? Why? Look at somebody's tank, there journals, you get the point.
Start reading about light and go with your feelings.
In the featured journals you can find a lot of information about tanks,set-ups and also your light.

Patrick


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## Wisey (7 Aug 2015)

Patrick, I would welcome you comments on my journal, that's why I started my journal, for feedback, so please do discuss these things there. You are right in that my Anubias gets a lot of light, but it's where the wood fits in my tank. That's why I added the Hygrophila to shade it. It's a learning process for sure.


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## Wisey (7 Aug 2015)

I don't understand your comment about Ian Sutherland though. Ian is also advocating low light. Pretty much everyone on here pushes the low light, Ian, Clive, people with thousands of forum posts, so who do you believe?

I'm happy to go read on your subjects and will do so over the weekend. I've increased to 40% tonight as its over a week since I went to 30%.

Rabbit jumped from 4 hours to 7 hours with 100% intensity. That's a 75% increase in duration, not a small step. Even you said that he should only go up in duration to 5-6 hours. I don't know if you read Rabbits earlier posts, but he's already lost £100 worth of plants. I'm just advocating a little caution. Swinging from 20% to 100%, 4 hours to 7 hours. It just seems counter productive. I don't want to see him loose another load of plants.


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## Sk3lly (7 Aug 2015)

Personally I saw nothing wrong with your advice Wisey. This hobby is all about opinions. A disagreement doesn't always mean your wrong


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Patrick Buff. (8 Aug 2015)

Have you been reading or googled some of the points of my earlier post? Please do, specially the one about par versus depth, that will give you some insight were we are talking about.
Have you read the post of Iain good? Because he is now using at his 60, his aquasky rip-off together with his radion-15. He is also saying that the radion isn't as strong as what people believe. Now Rabbit has 800 liter of water, more than 10 times the amount of the 60 from Iain with just 3 Radions and 60 cm of depth. I find it curious that some people suggest to dim to 20%. What I even find more curious that nobody looked at the lumens or par (maybe they don't no what it is). In the T5 time if somebody said he had around 0.3W p/liter at 100%, would you then advice him to dim his light to 20%? Do some calculations and find out why I'm saying this (Yes, there are some thumb rules for it, like the watt pro liter rule for T8/T5).
Rabbit probably lost many plants because they were getting not enough light in my opinion (maybe your m.c. also) That's why I said something about it, many posts ago. Dimming light to very low levels is not the way to go, you should look in duration. Dimmed light lose his energy very quickly and therefore his intensity. 
I think you have to look closer to nature, large swings appear there also and very natural with no bad consequences in your question about change.
I don't say you are wrong but there is far more to it. Many people just think light is light but it isn't. You need to do your homework for getting good results of it.

Patrick


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## Wisey (8 Aug 2015)

I was mixing up Ian M with Ian Sutherland. I haven't read up yet, if I had spent my Friday night reading about light my girlfriend would not be amused  I'll be sure to do some research over the next few days though.


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## Rabbit229 (13 Aug 2015)

Ok I'm starting to see the bog wood getting green patches 
Shall I drop the light to 50%
Will this stop the bog wood going green


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (13 Aug 2015)

Hi mate,

As I can see your pictures, your tank is not enough mature to handle so much light !! reduce it. 
Also you could add some fast growing plants to speed up a bit the whole process. try some hygrophilia they are cheap and fast growers.
but you really need to let your tank mature before nuking it with that much light. You never know how much time it gets to be mature. My last scape it took 4 months as a started from scratch (new sand, new filter etc...) 

hope it will work for you mate cheers


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## Wisey (13 Aug 2015)

Plenty of people, both experienced and less experienced like myself advised caution and small steps to build up gradually. One person said blast it with 100%. You went with the one person, you got algae. I would read back through the advice of others and make a balanced decision based on advice of the majority.


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## Rabbit229 (13 Aug 2015)

I under stand what your saying. led are not as bright as metal halide, I'm hearing that if I have led I need run it full power.
Now I no not to  
I have gained growth in my plants. My grass is staring carpeting, my knot weed has grown 4inch

So now I'll have to run it at 40% will the green die or will I have to spray it with hydrgen peroxide?


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## Iain Sutherland (13 Aug 2015)

Just to be clear, I said I ran mine at 100% and advised other shouldn't unless they are 100% sure that fert co2 etc are spot on. 

Any advise of "all LEDs aren't as bright" should be disregarded. They aren't born equal, I'm yet to get my futura over 40% power long term... It's like looking at the sun!

Unfortunately green algae on hardscape is a consequence of bright light and generally you have to accept it and that cleaning the hardscape is part of your maintenance weekly... Or use less power  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rabbit229 (13 Aug 2015)

I don't mind the wood turning green. I just don't want it growing on my plants and glass


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## Rabbit229 (18 Aug 2015)

My clean up crew

Otocinclus Catfish - got
Snail:
Malaysia trumpet snail 
Assassin snail - got
Nerite Snail - got
Red Rams horn snail
Shrimps:
Cherry shrimp - got
Amono shrimp

What else is worth adding to this list


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