# T5 Lighting for 8ft x 2ft x 2ft



## lincsflier (8 May 2009)

Hi planning a 8ft x 2ft x 2ft tank planted.  T5 lighting will be used and a dimmable ballast system for a natural dawn to dusk cycle.

This tank was originally going to be a reef tank but the cost of replacing 24 T5 tubes every 6 months put that out the window so said the boss lady lol.

Filtration will be using either and FX5 or external remote sump which will be a Kockney Koi fibreglass filter with all heaters etc in it.

Thanks in advance for all suggestions etc.

Dave


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## aaronnorth (8 May 2009)

the best way would be to use some metal halides/ pendant lighting.
Have you seen thecheap tubes from here, come are only about Â£4  

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=555


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## james3200 (8 May 2009)

Couple of 4' pendants with T5 / Halide combo?


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## lincsflier (8 May 2009)

Hi thanks for the advice so far halide not an option unfortunately due to the heat had 2 x 150W on a 5ft marine tank and heat and noise etc was way too much can mount ballasts etc remotely so not a problem with heat or noise from them just from the tubes themselves.

Thanks
Dave


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## james3200 (8 May 2009)

Its worth noting that with halides most people use them for a midday burst, say no more than 90-120 mins, i have mine on for 30mins, if you could live with that might be worth looking into..?


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## ceg4048 (8 May 2009)

lincsflier said:
			
		

> Hi planning a 8ft x 2ft x 2ft tank planted.  T5 lighting will be used and a dimmable ballast system for a natural dawn to dusk cycle.
> 
> This tank was originally going to be a reef tank but the cost of replacing 24 T5 tubes every 6 months put that out the window so said the boss lady lol.
> 
> ...


Well, before you even think about lighting, in my opinion, you should seriously assess flow and CO2 implementation in such a big tank, especially if you intend to have it illuminated by marine level lighting. A single FX5 powering a 240 USG tank will struggle mightily. As absurd as it sounds you really are looking at a target turnover "rating" in the neighborhood of 2400GPH, or about 9600LPH, so that's at least 4 FX5s. Perhaps you sump pump has this capability?

CO2 injection is another critical issue. I'd have at least 2 injection points (and probably 3) entering from both ends of the tank. If you use the sump you might need to seal it from atmosphere so as to reduce out gassing, and you'd need to find a way to minimize splashing in the sump, which also outgasses CO2.

I would avoid noonday bursts altogether and just have a steady lighting level that isn't over the top. 300-500 watts, tops, until you get a bit more experience.

Needless to say, high level lighting will necessarily mean high level nutrition so you should check out the EI articl as well as the CO2 article in the Tutorial section.

Cheers,


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## lincsflier (9 May 2009)

> Well, before you even think about lighting, in my opinion, you should seriously assess flow and CO2 implementation in such a big tank, especially if you intend to have it illuminated by marine level lighting. A single FX5 powering a 240 USG tank will struggle mightily. As absurd as it sounds you really are looking at a target turnover "rating" in the neighborhood of 2400GPH, or about 9600LPH, so that's at least 4 FX5s. Perhaps you sump pump has this capability?



Thats what I was thinking have a range of pumps I can use so was thinking of using a 12,000 litre per hour pump which will have around the 9,000 lph mark when head etc taken into account.  Also thinking of having several entry points from the sump possibly at different levels?.




> CO2 injection is another critical issue. I'd have at least 2 injection points (and probably 3) entering from both ends of the tank. If you use the sump you might need to seal it from atmosphere so as to reduce out gassing, and you'd need to find a way to minimize splashing in the sump, which also outgasses CO2.



The sump is a unit which has no splashing at all.  It is actually a fibreglass filter designed for Koi ponds but have spare units available which I can use has around a 190l capacity along with a vortex chamber and brushes etc..  This unit can also be totally enclosed to ensure no loss of CO2.



> I would avoid noonday bursts altogether and just have a steady lighting level that isn't over the top. 300-500 watts, tops, until you get a bit more experience.



Does this remain the same with T5 lighting this figure and would a dawn to dusk cycle be beneficial for plants and fish?.



> Needless to say, high level lighting will necessarily mean high level nutrition so you should check out the EI articl as well as the CO2 article in the Tutorial section.



EI used a similiar thing in my marine tanks.  Thinking of using a dosing bag the type you get for medical purposes and then a peri pump to continually dose the system.  What are your thoughts on this?.

By the way should I be posting all these parts in seperate forums or okay to do all in here?.

Cheers,
Dave


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## ceg4048 (10 May 2009)

lincsflier said:
			
		

> ...have a range of pumps I can use so was thinking of using a 12,000 litre per hour pump which will have around the 9,000 lph mark when head etc taken into account.  Also thinking of having several entry points from the sump possibly at different levels?.


 Excellent! Massive flow will erase a lot of mistakes. Definitely have multiple entry points. It's not so important to have different levels so much as to have a good movement pattern. New entry water must touch all leaves and replace old water without having stagnation points. Don't try to get too fancy with the entry point design. Avoid entry points that are opposing, otherwise they actually cancel each other's energy resulting in stagnation.



			
				lincsflier said:
			
		

> The sump is a unit which has no splashing at all.  It is actually a fibreglass filter designed for Koi ponds but have spare units available which I can use has around a 190l capacity along with a vortex chamber and brushes etc..  This unit can also be totally enclosed to ensure no loss of CO2.


Great! Not familiar with this type of system. "Vortex" sounds anti-CO2 though, but that's probably just a marketing term right?



			
				lincsflier said:
			
		

> Does this remain the same with T5 lighting this figure and would a dawn to dusk cycle be beneficial for plants and fish?.


 I'm actually referring to T5. In and of itself, the dusk/dawn scenario does little for plants or critters. It's mostly an aesthetic, however, there is an advantage for doing it; The beginning of the photoperiod is THE most critical time of the day. It's at this time that the plant requires high, stable levels of CO2 the most. The more light striking the leaf, the higher the demand for CO2. With the large volume of water that you have, rapidly saturating it with CO2 can be difficult. If the light intensity is kept low at morning, i.e. "Dawn mode", this limits the CO2 demand and gives your injector time to build up CO2 levels for when the intensity increases to max. Many don't realize that the beginning of the photoperiod relative to CO2 often makes or breaks the system and means the difference between healthy plants versus algae. Be sure to study the article CO2 Measurement Using A Drop Checker



			
				lincsflier said:
			
		

> EI used a similiar thing in my marine tanks.  Thinking of using a dosing bag the type you get for medical purposes and then a peri pump to continually dose the system.  What are your thoughts on this?.


Yes, this will be fine. As long as you dose the proper levels it doesn't matter how the nutrients get into the tank. LondonDragon has a thread in the fert section on this technique. I'd suggest you start off with the teaspoon method first though. It makes it easier to troubleshoot problems when you know exactly how much of what you added. Of course if your autodoser allows you to know accurately what is being dosed on a daily basis then yes, by all means, go for it.



			
				lincsflier said:
			
		

> By the way should I be posting all these parts in seperate forums or okay to do all in here?.


Well, technically, yeah, specific issues should be raised in their appropriate sections but the thread just kind of meandered as I threw various ideas at you, so no big deal.  

Cheers,


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## lincsflier (10 May 2009)

Excellent want to make sure I get right from the start rather than blunder along as I go   .  The vortex has now been thrown out the window and a bigger unit without a vortex will now be used so should avoid CO2 loss through that.

Had a hunch that the dawn/dusk scenario might help with CO2 uptake but wanted to be sure.  Will have a look at the fert section next.

By the way work in a LFS but at the moment we do not do any plants other than pond stuff but something the boss woman wants to bring in but she not allowed to do it until we can do it right lol.  It's me that will have to look after them so when i fully understand the principles etc then we will get them and have care sheets etc prepared want to get away from the old way that LFS just chuck a plant in a bag take your money and run a mile   our customers need to understand that a plant is a living thing as well.

Thanks greatly for all your help.


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## Ed Seeley (10 May 2009)

The vortex will not lose any CO2 (more so than any open chamber in the filter) but will be an excellent method of passively removing solids.  It is just a large cylindrical/conical chmaber where solids will settle out and can easily be drained out.  You certainly don't need to get rid of it for that reason but it may not be necessary unless you have large or messy fish that will generate lots of waste as koi do.

Personally having one on my koi pond I would use one on a tank this size.  If, in the future, you find it doesn't collect much waste you can always add filter media to it later to up the biological filtration if you feel it necessary.


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## ceg4048 (10 May 2009)

Cool! 8) Thanks for clarifying Ed.

Cheers,


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## lincsflier (10 May 2009)

Hi Ed yeah they are fantastic only problem I have is the flow as the maximum the 5000 unit will sope with is around the 6000lph .  The boss indoors says 10000 filter is too big can't see the problem with it personally only seen foot long.


Thanks
Dave


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## Garuf (10 May 2009)

Starting with such an epically proportioned tank seems a bit of a bad idea to me, even a 4x2x2 would be attention stealing and much easier to scape and to maintain. 
Is their any reason for such a big tank, is it a shop display?


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## Ed Seeley (10 May 2009)

lincsflier said:
			
		

> Hi Ed yeah they are fantastic only problem I have is the flow as the maximum the 5000 unit will sope with is around the 6000lph .  The boss indoors says 10000 filter is too big can't see the problem with it personally only seen foot long.
> 
> 
> Thanks
> Dave



9,000lph will be a lot of flow through the filter as on such a huge tank and with your own designed filter you shouldn't experience the same loss of flow rate as from a normal external.  However you can't really have too much flow so I suppose it's all good!  I have a 1m diameter vortex on my 3,500gallon pond that deals with over 2,500gph (11,250lph) so you're really going to have a lot of flow on this tank!  What were the dimensions of the filter you were planning?  If you lose the vortex can you fit in a bigger filter then?  Really it's the transfer ports of the filter that you will need to consider so you can have that much flow through the filter.  And what happens if the media blocks.


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## lincsflier (12 May 2009)

Garuf said:
			
		

> Starting with such an epically proportioned tank seems a bit of a bad idea to me, even a 4x2x2 would be attention stealing and much easier to scape and to maintain.
> Is their any reason for such a big tank, is it a shop display?



The tank was originally going to be used as a reef tank but had enough of marines and the tank is on order already.  Surely the addage that a bigger tank is easier to set parameters etc. still holds true?.  Have a 10 x 2 x 2 in the shop where I work .

Cheers


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## lincsflier (12 May 2009)

Ed Seeley said:
			
		

> lincsflier said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hi Ed.  The filter will be one of the Kockney Koi units as we have a few damaged ones lying around I can fix up which saves quite a bit.  The problem with them is that they have internal baffles arranged which force the water through each chamber and its keeping the pump fed that would be a problem with a smaller unit so may reduce the size of some of the baffles and still keep the vortex chamber.  For media I was going to fine brushes, jap matting, Flocor and finally Alfagrog so media shouldn't ever clog up and will be using external pump.  The feeds back into the tank will be 1" inlets with taps fitted to rear of tank to even flow throughout the tank probably going to go with 6 inlets and 50mm sump feed.

Meeting with a guy from JBL later next week to have a word with him about suitable CO2 system for large tanks will keep you posted.

Cheers


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## lincsflier (12 May 2009)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Cool! 8) Thanks for clarifying Ed.
> 
> Cheers,




Sorry forgot to clarify that .

Thanks Ed


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## Garuf (12 May 2009)

Yes you're more stable with regards to parameters it's just that everything, absolutely everything is proportionally more difficult due to the vastness of it all. I can't imagine anyone ever wanting their first tank to be this big, not when they've had first tank syndrome like everyone on here. (Read that as not knowing what you're doing and ending up with huge amounts of algae).


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## lincsflier (12 May 2009)

Thats why i'm on here first before I do anything and avoid making mistakes.  Used to algae control in my marine tanks and in tropical tanks I used to have its good fun lol. 

If its going to be too difficult and not worth the effort then will just have it as a bog standard tank with very minimal planting.


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## Garuf (12 May 2009)

Ahhh but of course, still, everyone makes mistakes. Not to talk you down or anything. If I were you I'd be following Tom barrs big tanks and cegs massive turnover rules. 
Do you know what kind of scape you want? That will again effect what lighting you'll want/need to grow things at a nice controllable rate.


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## Ed Seeley (12 May 2009)

lincsflier said:
			
		

> Hi Ed.  The filter will be one of the Kockney Koi units as we have a few damaged ones lying around I can fix up which saves quite a bit.  The problem with them is that they have internal baffles arranged which force the water through each chamber and its keeping the pump fed that would be a problem with a smaller unit so may reduce the size of some of the baffles and still keep the vortex chamber.  For media I was going to fine brushes, jap matting, Flocor and finally Alfagrog so media shouldn't ever clog up and will be using external pump.  The feeds back into the tank will be 1" inlets with taps fitted to rear of tank to even flow throughout the tank probably going to go with 6 inlets and 50mm sump feed.



I might need you to backtrack a bit here.  Is this filter going under the tank fed by overflows, next to the tank and gravity fed like it would be in a pond or pump fed?

If it was me then I'd look at units based around static K1 with maybe a sintered glass or ceramic media in the final chamber.  Static K1 is brilliant for trapping even tiny solids (down towards the 20 micron sized level).  The only reason I wouldn't use fluidised K1 for the biological filtration is that all the aeration used to fluidise the media which would gas off all the CO2!  Rather than buy huge amounts of Sintered glass then you could just use alfagrog or a ceramic media instead but I wouldn't bother with the matting without aeration as it will block with dirt and the flocor doesn't provide such a large surface area for the bacteria.


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## lincsflier (13 May 2009)

Sounds good Ed the filter will be in a different location but will be used as a sump filter still being fed by weirs.  The filter is non fluidised and will be fed under gravity with a pump back.  The jap matting we use in a different configuration so that the dirt still gets caught but the water will flow.  Will definitely be a unit without a vortex as well as pulling that amount of water through the smaller version doesnt work (tried it at work today ).  Instead of the Flocor probably just use another chamber of Alfagrog instead.

Cheers


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## Ed Seeley (13 May 2009)

Sounds like you've got it all sorted mate.  Just don't forget the pics!!!!


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## lincsflier (14 May 2009)

Ed Seeley said:
			
		

> Sounds like you've got it all sorted mate.  Just don't forget the pics!!!!


 lol won't mate just waiting for the tank to arrive now.


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## lincsflier (12 Jul 2009)

At long last the tank arrived on Thursday and is to say the least excellent.  Very thorough build and even used sump design I wanted to minimise gas off.  Will post some pics soon just got to finish off the pipework to the remote sump.


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## TDI-line (12 Jul 2009)

Hi,

just out of interest, is the shop in Lincolnshire?

Regards,

Dan.


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