# Any one have any experiance with this?



## Garuf (3 Mar 2008)

http://www.barrreport.com/co2-aquatic-p ... heads.html
Seems sound, and no flow loss on my eheim 2224.
Anyone tried it?
Any downsides on my 10gallon?


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## sks (3 Mar 2008)

I actually thought about doing this myself some years back but never bothered because I felt you would stress the pump.

I had a long conversation with a reef hobbyist many years back about the effects of needle wheel impellers and what Eheim felt about it. He tells me that the pumps run hotter and impeller life was shortened (but then again I've never had he privilege to ever wear out an impeller).

One thing I would be worried about is the hydrostatic effect going if the part where the impeller magnet and the shaft were dry because CO2 gas has filled the chamber, it would now not have water as a lubricant and wear down. Deltec can get away with putting their pumps upright since they do little lifting and literally blast into the chamber at no head so there is no chance of air filling in the chamber.


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## GreenNeedle (4 Mar 2008)

I may try this with the cheap Â£5 pumps that Wilko sell and stick it over my diffusor.  If it wears out as per previous post the I can buy another at that price.

I would of course put the 1mm hoels in the impellor blades as per another users comments on the thread.

Good find Garuf

Andy


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## Garuf (4 Mar 2008)

I was going to use one of the maxijet pumps that do the rounds for about Â£15 can't see it being that much hassle, keep us informed on how it goes Andy.


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## sks (4 Mar 2008)

SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> I may try this with the cheap Â£5 pumps that Wilko sell and stick it over my diffusor.  If it wears out as per previous post the I can buy another at that price.
> 
> I would of course put the 1mm hoels in the impellor blades as per another users comments on the thread.
> 
> ...



Impeller blades are like fans, whether that is on a helicopter or a ceiling fan. They must be perfectly balanced to work effectively or else when something unbalanced rotates on it's shaft you get vibes produced. Also an unbalanced impeller will grind at the shaft it spins on - not good!

So if you try to, what's the term, mutilate your impeller to copy the needle wheel principle I'd make sure that the impeller is balanced before putting it back, you do this by getting the shaft out and sliding the impeller in to spin it to see. Deltec and other companies wouldn't be bothering to make needle wheel impellers if we can DIY it ourselves you know.


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## GreenNeedle (4 Mar 2008)

> Deltec and other companies wouldn't be bothering to make needle wheel impellers if we can DIY it ourselves you know.



This is a silly statement.  Its like saying they wouldn't make CO2 reactors if you could make your own or they wouldn't sell branded filter film if you could just cust out the shapes from pond filter foam or they wouldn't make off the shelf ferts if you could make your own or they wouldn't sell Nutrafins if you could make a DIY.  All of which we all know we can.

Maybe we should just stop experimenting and spend loads of money on things that we can source cheaper or make ourselves.

Therefore I must stop using pond dechlor and revert back to aquarium dechlor,  Sell off my welding CO2 equipment and get aquarium labelled goods, stop using a dry powder based solution (that I made myself) replacing it with an off the shelf product.  Take the PC Fans (that I fitted and wired myself) out of the hood and get an aquarium labelled setup. Use tank water and solution that the drop checker instructions ask for and ditch the 4dKH (that I made myself)  Put the old original plastic aquarium canopy back on and throw out the pine one (which I built myself).  Remove the playsand and replace it with proper aquarium sand.  Remove the slate and pebbles that I didn't come from shops......Oh and get a proper aquarium stand instead of the pine cabinet that I bought to put it on.

If you read the thread that Garug links too people are trying it and while making the point about balance they don't once say that an item wouldn't be manufactured if it were possible to make your own.

anyway for Â£5 what does it matter if it doesn't work!  

Can everyone else stop putting their CO2 line into their filter.  You have to buy a reactor or diffusor now.

Garuf - I was also looking at the maxijet MP400 which is cheap at aquatics-online and has venturi action and hose intake as standard so could well be a good option.  Will let you know how it works.

Now excuse me. I have to throw out all the fresh fruit veg and meat I have and go out and buy some ready meals from Waitrose (To keep with the theme of spending more than I have to)

A very peed off with pooh poers Andy


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## GreenNeedle (4 Mar 2008)

Well after the comments on the barrreport I have just ordered a Maxijet MP400 from aquatics online for Â£11.99+Â£3.50 shipping.  Maybe should've paid anther Â£7.50 for a spare impellor but the they don't call e SUPERcoley for nothing. lol

Will let you know what happens as I may sample it above the diffusor first.

Andy


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## Garuf (4 Mar 2008)

Andy, I used to model so I've already got these, invest in a pin vice and a set of hss micro drills I've got a set down to .2 of a millimetre. Ideal for modding a impeller.


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## GreenNeedle (5 Mar 2008)

Well I was going to use the fine diamond tip of an etching pen that I happen to have around the house which should be similar to your size.

Andy


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## Garuf (6 Mar 2008)

After reading It seems bigger is better, maybe 1mm is fine after all.


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## GreenNeedle (6 Mar 2008)

Well I've done it so I though I would put it in pictures:

Maxijet MP400 Powerhead (inc loads of bits not needed





My etching pen




The impellor after making the holes with the etching pen




The CO2 fed through the guard




Makes a change for something to hide in the tigers. lol  Normally the tiger hiding in something isn't it?




So far I think I don't need a bubble counter anymore. lol. Every time I see a bubble pass through the bubble counter I hear a phizz from the powerhead to the exact millisecond.

When I first got the whole thing working I had to turn the CO2 right down as without the backward pressure the disc diffusor gave the bubble count suddenly went from 1 bps to 3 and I don't want to risk that.

As for the mist.  Its not as fine as the couple of hours after bleaching a diffusor but smaller than the disc eventually gives after a day or 2. Also the powerhead pushes them further around the tank.

When it spits out the bubbles you don't think there are many but when you actually look at the rest of the tank you can see loads of bubbles so some must be coming out too fast to see.

Will keep an eye on my drop checker for the next few days (I run 24/7) just to be on the safe side, and also to make sure it keeps me green like the Rhinox did.

Andy


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## Garuf (7 Mar 2008)

excellent write up, how loud is the noise? enough to be obnoxious?


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## GreenNeedle (7 Mar 2008)

its like a click (quiet clock ticking) every second.  With the telly on can't hear it.

I'm gonna add some more holes when I get time though.

Andy


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## Themuleous (7 Mar 2008)

Really interesting idea, I like how you've managed to fix the co2 tubing to the bottom of it.  Could even turn in upside down in the tank so you haven't got to bent the co2 tubing too much.

Sam


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## JamesC (7 Mar 2008)

A little tip for you. What you need to do is get the holes as close as possible together. What makes the CO2 bubbles really small is the fine bit of plastic impellor between the holes which acts like a blade cutting the bubbles.

James


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## Steve Smith (7 Mar 2008)

Do you find the maxi jet produces too much flow, or is the 400lph rating a good combo for that size of tank?


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## GreenNeedle (7 Mar 2008)

Sam - I was going to put it upside down but in the end it hid OK the way it is and the hose was already this length from the Rhinox.  If it don't work it means I can very quickly swap back as the hose needs no adjustment.


James - I saw about the 'blades' part after I'd drilled so will try again and drill more this wekend to get some 'blades'

Dev - From what I have been reading I gather that as you introduce these holes and the interference increases that the flow reduces too.  At the moment in my 125Ltr it is OK but I would prefer a little less.

Andy


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## Garuf (7 Mar 2008)

http://www.reefcentral.org/forums/showt ... genumber=3

Interesting if we could get one of those set up!


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## GreenNeedle (8 Mar 2008)

Forgot to take pictures but I have now redrilled the holes in the impellor with a 1.5mm bit.

The bubbles are smaller and it seems a little quieter as well.  The flow is reduced but not by much.

The biggest bonuses I can see so far are:

1 - Additional circulation in the tank
2 - Uses less CO2 (I am at about 30bpm from 60bpm with the disc to achieve green)
3 - The 'click/fizz' when the bubbles are spat out of the spout are quieter than the 'chirp' of the disc.
4 - No need to clean the damn thing each week.

The one disadvantage with this version of the method is that the powerhead is a lot more unsightly than the glass/ceramic.  I have managed to hide it behind my Zenkeri though.

I wouldn't be able to do an inline version as my outlet pipe is 1.5m long and already goes from filter to UV to heater to Lily Pipe and there isn't the room to insert it anywhere there.

And


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## Garuf (8 Mar 2008)

I'm lead to believe you junction it off rather than have it in line in the conventional sense.

I think you would plumb it in much like you would a light bulb in a parallel circuit.


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## GreenNeedle (12 Mar 2008)

1 week after putting this needle wheel injector into the tank, I think I can verify that either my circulation or my diffusor were letting me down on the CO2 front!!!

The 'slow' growers which fill my tank (no fast growers) have shot up and the tank is much fuller in 1 week!!!.

Also the surface scum has disappeared totally, leading me to believe that it is as I have read on a fair few other threads a CO2 related problem.

I will post some before and after pics probs Saturday seeing as the forum will be down on Friday so that you can see what I mean growthwise.

Nice spot Garuf.

Andy


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## Steve Smith (12 Mar 2008)

Wow, glad to hear its working so well.  I drilled my powerhead impellor this eve, and hope to install it tomorrow eve if I get time 

Fingers crossed!


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## Steve Smith (13 Mar 2008)

Well, its all in place.  Power head is working, but seems to be giving off a lot of flow still.  I have my CO2 at about 1 bubble per 1.5 seconds at the moment.  Not run CO2 for a while so will increase this when I get a reading on my drop checker.  Its a murky blue at the moment but its only been in there for 20 mins or so.

I had to re-drill the impellor as it seemed to produce too big a mist of CO2.  It still gives a "phutt" and a mist comes out, but its a little finer than before.  Not sure if I can get it any better, I pretty much drilled as much as possible second time around.  Still, the mist is spurted half of the way to all the way accross the tank before it rises, and then the spraybar kicks it back most of it.  I'd say CO2 bubbles circulate for about 6 seconds generally, before reaching the surface.  I think it needs some work still.


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## Steve Smith (15 Mar 2008)

Well, it didn't seem to be working too well, so I've modified the idea slighty.  I'm currently using a glass diffuser underneath the powerhead.  The diffuser is a cheap one, so the bubbles comming out aren't as "misty" as I'd like, but they get sucked into the powerhead with the modified impellor and it seems to smash them up a little more.  I'm getting a reasonably fine mist accross the whole of the tank, which then gets sent back again by the spray bar, and its constant instead of the "phutt-phutt" I was getting before.


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## GreenNeedle (24 Mar 2008)

I have actually returned to the diffusor.  Why you may ask?

It wasn't for any problem with the powerjet but aesthetically it is noticeable and not very pretty whereas the glass ceramic is quite nice to look at.

I found that I had to clean it anyway as the holes would catch muck just like any filter or pump does.

I found that it was moving the substrate in the front left corner of the tank and I wondered about my 'barrier' being broken and cloudy clay Tropica substrate coming into contact wit the water.

I like my Nympheae stems and leaves to gently move in the water rather than be 'forced' into an outstretched position.

The final aspect was that my fish were all hanging out at the opposite end of the tank and I wasn't getting to see them.

So I cleaned the diffusor which weekly isn't really a hassle anyway and then did a complete clean of my filter (which only has half the media in it anyway)

Hopefully the fish will settle back into viewable positions soon.

Andy


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