# Do I need to add ferts with liquid co2



## Jezmond (6 Dec 2017)

I have a well stocked year old 125l tank with just sand substrate and 15 recently added plants which are a mix of crypts, java fern, anubias, swords, rotalia, cabomba and ludwigia peruviana. Lights are 2 X 20watt t8 and 1 Arcadia stretch 24watt led. I'm adding JBL ferropol weekly and 2 ml dennerle carbo elixir a day and I've added JBL and dennerle root balls and tropica root capsules. 50% weekly water change. Nitrates are around 20-40ppm phosphate is 4ppm. Most plants growing with a bit of melting and some dying leaves which would have thought expect ed as they settle in, but I'm getting what looks like staghorn algae.

Not sure what to do.

Either reduce light? (which I thought was low light already)

Add more nitrogen/phosphate? (but tap water is 2ppm phosphate and plenty of nitrates in tank from fish)

Add more or less liquid co2?

Or something else..?

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.


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## rebel (7 Dec 2017)

If it's a new tank in the last 4 weeks, then do nothing extra apart from maintenance, removal of dead leaves and water changes. Just wait for them to bounce back.


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## Jezmond (7 Dec 2017)

OK. Thanks for your reply. I'll prune the affected leaves and carry on with the same.


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## Zeus. (7 Dec 2017)

Jezmond said:


> year old 125l tank



So tank a year old, so wants been in the tank the last year and how did it grow



rebel said:


> new tank in the last 4 weeks



so no



Jezmond said:


> sand substrate



So no nutrients in the substrate, except root balls and tabs

Signs of staghorn - any pics

whats your photoperiod? have you changed it recently


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## Jezmond (7 Dec 2017)

Thanks for the interest.

I set the tank up a year ago with the fish and some easy plants, crypts, elodea, swords etc. It was great for about 7 months and then I overdid it with the photoperiod and it got overgrown with hair algae BBA and then BGA. In the end I removed most of the plants and just had the light on moonlight setting for a few hours a day. After about 3 months the algae gave up and then I moved house shortly after. I managed to keep the water and get the tank up and running without having to cycle it again. That was early September. I let things settle for a few weeks then started adding plants. Last plants went in 4 weeks ago and I've been adding the liquid carbon since then. I've had lights on for 6 hours for most of this time and upped it slowly to 6 and a half using a timer.

I'll try and get some images uploaded this evening.


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## Jezmond (7 Dec 2017)

@Zeus, @rebel Hi, here's some pictures

whole tank




 

The Rotala was the last to go in a month ago. Its tripled in size, 4 stems grew to the top of the tank which I replanted, the rest are nearly there.



Amazon Sword. The algae is only as bad as this on a couple of leaves but most have slight signs of it.


 

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.


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## Zeus. (9 Dec 2017)

Jezmond

Thanks for the pics, Im no expert myself, was hoping another more experienced member would read your thread and help too.
But heres my thoughts

You have a low tech tank, which your using dennerle carbo elixir (LCO2) which technically make it high tech but not an issue, best to add the LCO2 just before lights on as has the best impact then on plant growth.

Your testing your water, general test kits are very unreliable at hobbyist level and classed as a waste of money and the results are not to be trusted. Most of us on here dont use test kits at all.

50% water change is probably on the high side for your tank - but will do no harm. Once the plants start growing they will add to your biological filtration.

Your not adding ferts, I would and do in my low tech tanks, yes your fish will be supply as source of nitrates but the plants also need Potassium for healthy growth too and not sure if the fish waste produces any.Plus any nutrients the root balls and tabs add are slow release and your substrate will be adding nothing.

I would add ferts for the small expense, you could buy the All in one products off the shelf and basically pay for a lot of water and little ferts or make your own which is much cheaper and easy to do. Good threads to read All-in-one Macro & micro fertiliser and AIO for low tech DIY. If you dont want to DIY the ferts TNC complete is one product which many use with great results.

I good plan is not to focus on aglea on the plants and how to treat it. But focus on getting the plants healthy and growing so adding a good source of NPK and micro nutrients makes sense IMO.

Hope thats some help

Zeus

Keep us updated on how it goes


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## Jezmond (11 Dec 2017)

Thanks Zeus

I've ordered some TNC complete. I'm pretty sure I'm lacking potassium. So hopefully that will take care of it. I don't want to get into a routine of using powders because I want to be able to be away from home without any issues.

I'm also pretty sure I've got too much light. I saw a few threads over the weekend and they seem to say that 2 T8 tubes is giving me 50 par plus the extra LED another 15 par.

The same threads are also suggesting medium light starts at 30 par, so if they're right I'm well into medium light and so probably need pressurised CO2 and NPK..

This seems to be evident as the algae is growing most in the area where the light is most focussed.

What I don't understand though is how 2 X 20 watt T8 tubes with a combined output of around 2000 lux gives around 50 PAR but 1 24 watt LED with a similar output of around 2000 lux only gives 15 PAR.

Hopefully the changes will help.

I'm also thinking about doing a bleach dip for the most effected plants. They're stem plants so getting them out and back in shouldn't be an issue I'm just not sure if they might be worse off as they aren't that healthy.


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## Danny (11 Dec 2017)

I don't have any useful input really but following with interest as I'm dosing TNC liquid carbon and also TNC complete on my tank which I flooded on Saturday.

From what I read about the ferts before deciding to go with them it did seem best to also dose the complete alongside the liquid carbon.


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## ceg4048 (12 Dec 2017)

Jezmond said:


> Most plants growing with a bit of melting and some dying leaves which would have thought expect ed as they settle in, but I'm getting what looks like staghorn algae.


This is a classic symptom of poor CO2.



Jezmond said:


> Not sure what to do.
> 
> Add more... co2?


Yes.

Cheers,


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## Zeus. (12 Dec 2017)

Clive

So just increase the LCO2 dose you think his ferts was fine?



Danny said:


> TNC complete on my tank which I flooded on Saturday.



depends also on your substrate, if just sand or gravel I would dose Ferts, plants cant grow well with out ferts, the extra CO2 from the LCO2 should increase the grow

Zeus


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## Jezmond (12 Dec 2017)

Thanks ceg

The recommended dose is 1-3 ml a day and I've been adding 1.5. I'll increase it to 3.


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## ceg4048 (12 Dec 2017)

Zeus. said:


> Clive
> 
> So just increase the LCO2 dose you think his ferts was fine?
> 
> ...


Well, I don't really know if NPK is fine or not.

Jezmond claims to know the NPK concentrations. On what this information is based it's not really clear. This may later prove to be inaccurate, but at this moment, every symptom reported, including photos indicates a CO2 shortfall.

It's entirely possible that the CO2 shortage is also masking an NPK shortage. We won't know until the CO2 problem is fixed....

Cheers,


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## Jezmond (12 Dec 2017)

I've tested for nitrate and phosphate using API kits. I know they're not accurate and give different readings depending how you hold them up to the light but the nitrate is definitely orange and gets darker throughout the week so I thought that means there's enough there.

I got a phosphate kit last week and tested the tank water which went blue straight away, it seemed to be showing 4ppm on the test card. I tested the tap water which went blue straight away but not as dark as the tank water so I'm thinking this indicates the phosphate level in the tank.is going up during the week after the water change.

Not very scientific or accurate I know. But possibly an indication that the N and P levels are going up during the days after water changes.

I haven't tested for potassium but the JBL ferropol which I've been adding contains it as does the dennerle liquid carbon I'm using. I don't know if it's enough or what level. There are a few pinholes on some leaves and the ludwigia leaves are going yellow. This made me think K levels might be low.

I've reduced the light level to just the T8's and should receive the TNC complete tommorow. I plan on doing a 50% water change, removing the effected leaves and I'll up the dose of co2 and start adding the TNC.


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## Zeus. (12 Dec 2017)

Only problem if you do both, you will be no wiser to if it was just the extra LCO2 or both. 
Hard to do just one and wait all the same

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


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## Jezmond (12 Dec 2017)

True. I suppose I could try just upping the co2 and see how it goes.

Any thoughts on how long it should take to see an improvement?


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## ceg4048 (13 Dec 2017)

As I'm sure you realize, test kit readings are not a reliable source of information. They really are a waste of money and I strongly advise to abandon them because they will always lead you astray.

In any case it takes a lot longer to get out of trouble than it does to get into trouble. We cannot predict how long it takes to recover because  we do not know the extent of the CO2 shortage. We only know that there is a shortage. It may be a few days or a few weeks to recover depending on the extent of the deficiency and the amount of extra CO2 being added. I do not really know what the active ingredient of dennerle carbo elixir is. I assume it is Gluteraldehye which would be the same as all the other brands such as Excel and so forth. In any case browsing around the web it seems expensive. Aquaessentials sells an equivalent product https://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/ne...Path=544_208&zenid=co7jn793uldlpcguttqt6apgt2
Have a look and see if this is less money.

Also be advised that you may have to use more than the bottle suggested amount. Liquid products are not as effective as gas so you really need to experiment in your tank to determine best dosing.

Cheers,


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## Jezmond (13 Dec 2017)

Thanks Clive

I agree that test kits are a waste of money in one sense. But as a beginner probably necessary for cycling tanks and helpful in understanding the chemistry in aquarium water. It'd be great if they sold much smaller kits at a fraction of the price.

One thing I've learnt in the hobby is to be patient and not rush into things. It can be expensive and disappointing.

The goal with this tank is to get a nice habitat for my fish foremost. If plants die and algae turn up my fish don't care even if I do. I'd also love the plants to look ace and be lush. Just having sand substrate makes it difficult as posts on forums deal with different substrates.

I'm planning on setting up a new tank soon as my first serious planted tank and I'm hopefully following my own advice as being patient and learning as much as possible before I do.

In a way I'm hoping that doing things really lean with sand substrate will accelerate my understanding of the light/co2/nutrient balance. For this tank I can take the hits so long as the fish are happy.

Having said that since I reduced the light a few days ago my fish are definitely happier! Algae growth seems to have slowed or stopped also.

The dennerle carbo elixir as far as I know doesn't contain glute. In hindsight I would have just gone for the straight glute based LCO2 as the combination of micro ferts from the ferropol might be causing an iron overdose  as I'm getting a film on the water surface.

I found a web based company who sell  big bottles of Excell out their industrial unit which is nearby so after delivery costs it might work out cost effective. 

Ferropol is nearly used up so I'm thinking I might be best off looking for an alternative.

Also thinking of DIY co2 but again fish are the priority.

For now I'm happy to overdose the dennerle LCO2 to get rid of it and remove the micro aspect, but I've got inverts. 5 amanos, 5 RCS, 2 nerites and a bamboo shrimp which is awesome. From reading people seem to say it's Ok to overdose LC02 but it may harm inverts. Any thoughts?

Many thanks.


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## rebel (14 Dec 2017)

If toxicity is a concern, then reducing light, adding a complete fert and continuing with water changes are the safest course of action. 

Liquid co2 can be toxic at higher levels but as with any compound it will depend on each species concerned; including algae.  Hard to generalise but slow changes are no doubt safer.


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## dw1305 (14 Dec 2017)

Hi all, 





Jezmond said:


> Also thinking of DIY co2 but again fish are the priority.





Jezmond said:


> whole tank


You try the <"Duckweed Index">.

It is just a simple technique where you use the health of a floating plant (originally Duckweed (_Lemna minor_), but I usually use Amazon Frogbit (<"_Limnobium  laevigatum">_) now) to indicate the nutrient status of the tank.

It uses a floating plant to take CO2 out of the equation (aerial leaves have access to 400ppm of atmospheric CO2), and then you only add nutrients when plant colour and health declines.

cheers Darrel


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## ceg4048 (14 Dec 2017)

Jezmond said:


> I agree that test kits are a waste of money in one sense. But as a beginner probably necessary for cycling tanks and helpful in understanding the chemistry in aquarium water. It'd be great if they sold much smaller kits at a fraction of the price.


People say this all the time, and it just isn't true. Test kits are the worst thing for a beginner because they program the beginner to think that the test kit knows more than they do. You do not need a test kit to cycle a tank, especially a planted tank. Just wait 6 weeks or more and the tank is cycled and stable. It's automatic. It can't not happen. Do lots of water changes, have lot's of plants in the tank and viola.

Test kits are actually more for the experienced hobbyist who understands the nature of the flaws in kits. Experience teaches possible ways of circumventing these flaws.
If you consistently perform frequent and large water changes, then you will automatically be removing toxic compounds that develop in the tank. Both the filter and the substrate will automatically develop the bacterial colonies.



Jezmond said:


> Just having sand substrate makes it difficult as posts on forums deal with different substrates.


This is also a subject containing a lot of misconceptions. Sand, while not as good as a clay substrate, does not really cause any more problems than any other substrate. As long as you dose the water column with NPK and Trace elements then the plants will not care that they are in sand. You should simply carry on as normal because there is nothing to worry about.


Jezmond said:


> the combination of micro ferts from the ferropol might be causing an iron overdose as I'm getting a film on the water surface.


This is also a subject filled with misconceptions. There is very little chance that ferropol causes Iron toxicity, primarily because there is very little Iron in ferropol. Even if there was a lot of Iron, plants can tolerate huge levels of Iron and will reject Iron and other metals if the concentrations are too high.

Cheers,


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## Jezmond (14 Dec 2017)

Thanks for the advice guys, it's much appreciated.

I did add some Amazon Frogbit when I first added the plants a few months ago. For the first week it grew OK and sent out some nice looking roots. Then the following weeks it slowly went yellow and mushy and the leaves broke off and I ended up removing it bit by bit.

At the time I thought it was because it was getting bashed about in the current or because it was so close to the lights. Could this be a problem Darrel.

I didn't know about the duckweed index then. Coincidentally I was reading some of your posts on it last night. Sounds interesting I might give the Frogbit another try.

So far I've increased the LCO2 to 4ml a day and reduced the light. The algae seems to have stopped growing and the plants seem to be better colour.



ceg4048 said:


> It's entirely possible that the CO2 shortage is also masking an NPK shortage. We won't know until the CO2 problem is fixed....



Just wondering how we know when the co2 level is fixed.


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## ceg4048 (15 Dec 2017)

Jezmond said:


> Just wondering how we know when the co2 level is fixed.


Well, there is no metric other than the observation that the CO2 related algae is arrested and that there are no other CO2 related faults apparent. The list of CO2 related faults is very long due to the fact that a large percentage of the dry mass of the plant is Carbon. I mean, that why logs make a great fuel in a fireplace, right? The coal that you burn is Carbon, stripped from CO2 taken out of thin air. Folks tend to not realize this point. So any time there is a Carbon shortage, depending on it severity, you will observe various symptoms. Melting, translucent leaves, browning, brown spots, black spots, holes in leaves, falling leaves, deformation of leaves, surface scum, hair algae, BBA, GSA and any other filamentous algae will all be a result, at least in part, to poor CO2.

CO2 is never really fixed, because as the plants grow, their demand for CO2 increases and as you give them more CO2 then become more dependent on CO2 and start to fail even when there is only a slight dip in the CO2.

CO2 is therefore like a narcotic and the poor hobbyists can only ever hope to play the role of a treatment center for the addicts in the tank.

I suggest that you trim the stem that has the leaves with GSA that are shown in your photos above. These leaves will never recover
The leaves that only suffer the hair algae will be OK, but the GSA infected ones are a liability.

When new leaves grow clean and without fault then you know that at least you are on the right track...for the moment.

Cheers,


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## Konsa (15 Dec 2017)

Jezmond said:


> I did add some Amazon Frogbit when I first added the plants a few months ago. For the first week it grew OK and sent out some nice looking roots. Then the following weeks it slowly went yellow and mushy and the leaves broke off and I ended up removing it bit by bit.
> 
> At the time I thought it was because it was getting bashed about in the current or because it was so close to the lights. Could this be a problem Darrel.
> 
> I didn't know about the duckweed index then. Coincidentally I was reading some of your posts on it last night. Sounds interesting I might give the Frogbit another try.



Hi U are having closed tank and sometimes the high humidity is an issue.I have several low tech tanks and the frogbit is not doing well in one of them but the dwarf water lettuce is.If I were U I will try different floating plants to see wich one will be the one for your conditions.U can try  Dwarf water letuce, Saggitaria,Red root floaters or even the duckweed but the latest is a pain to control and will end up everywhere if U have other tanks.
Regards Konsa


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## dw1305 (15 Dec 2017)

Hi all,





Jezmond said:


> I did add some Amazon Frogbit when I first added the plants a few months ago. For the first week it grew OK and sent out some nice looking roots. Then the following weeks it slowly went yellow and mushy and the leaves broke off and I ended up removing it bit by bit.


High light shouldn't be a problem, but it doesn't do well in high flow, if it all ends squashed up against the glass and 1/2 underwater. Usually if the plants are healthy they will end up floating in a calmer bit of the tank, or circulating around the surface. You may need to angle the spray bar a little bit more down, if they end squashed against the glass?

From your description that sounds more like a deficiency symptom, diagnosing these is a mugs game, but I might try adding some <"Epsom Salts"> and a <"different chelator for iron (Fe)">, if you have hard water?

cheers Darrel


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## Jezmond (15 Dec 2017)

Hi everyone. Again, many thanks for everyone's input.

To update..

I've done a water change and trimmed nearly the last of the original round leaves of the rotala which is where the algae was most concerning and the cabomba which was looking a bit black from algae.

Things look much better.

Many thanks Clive for your sage advice.

The rotala has more or less doubled in size over the past fortnight and the tips are are still a beautiful pink, the new leaves are needle shaped and big nearer the tops, multiple side shoots have sprouted but  leaves are small lower down. Apart from the highest tips it all has algae on it but only if I look close and in my case with reading glasses on (and my strong ones which show up all sorts!). The bad algae was on on the original round leaves but some on the stems which remains. (Spot dosing that now)

The cabomba which when I planted about 6 weeks ago zoomed to the top of the tank and was subsequently trimmed right back to give the sword next to it a chance to grow hasn't gained any height since. There's some really lush green leaves coming out at the bottom but next to it some very odd looking yellow leaves that don't seem to be what I've seen before where lower leaves go a dry brown.

New leaf on sword is a bit translucent but a week old.

Crypt undulatis had an old leaf that seemed to be going a really wierd yellow with contrasting dark veins yesterday or day before which gave me a sinking feeling. Today its coloured up really nice, the leaf is green and seems to have thinned in width and has nice looking reddish veins. The four surrounding leaves seemed to be doing the same and make the rest of the plant look shabby in comparison.

Ludwigia looks like it's been in the desert but much better over past day.

I haven't added any NPK apart from the K in the Ferropol and LCO2. Ferropol is 1% K and I've been adding >15ml per week plus whatever is in the dennerle carbo elixir (which I can't find the composition of) so maybe not enough but there.

Phosphate - the APi test turns dark  blue out the tap (sorry Clive), I downloaded the water report but it doesn't mention phosphate (or magnesium) calcium is 3.5 ppm.

Nitrates - test says 20-40 ppm. I used to live in Hull and the APi kit said tap water was 60ppm so I know to aim low on that. The rotala is pink so I gather it's more like 10ppm

So far then NPK seems to be Ok ish but co2 wasn't enough. I have reduced the light  intensity by 30% though since doubling co2. In my limited insight poor co2 levels relate to light levels. The lower the light the less co2 is needed and vice versa.



ceg4048 said:


> CO2 is therefore like a narcotic and the poor hobbyists can only ever hope to play the role of a treatment center for the addicts in the tank



Ideally I'd like to use co2 to grow the plants to the ideal size quickly and then reduce back to a low tech set up.

Light is not an issue for aesthetics. I much prefer the 15 PAR led light to the 40 PAR T8 light.

Once the plants are grown out do you think I could reduce the LCO2 as long as I reduce the light intensity.


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## ceg4048 (16 Dec 2017)

Jezmond said:


> Once the plants are grown out do you think I could reduce the LCO2 as long as I reduce the light intensity.


Well, can an addict just stop using narcotics cold turkey? What is the likely result?
If you want to wean your plants off of CO2 you had better do it very gradually, reduce the dosing by 10% or so every few weeks.
New leaves that appear will be accustomed to the new lower concentration.

You can also try turning the lights off and leaving them off for a few weeks, then slowly increase the power. I've done that before but the only plants that were unaffected were the ferns and crypts. The other plants lost a lot of weight, and of course the plants with the strongest CO2 dependency the carpet plants withered away into nothing.
No guarantee that it will be painless, unfortunately.

Cheers,


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## Jezmond (23 Jan 2018)

Hi all and thanks again for everyone's input.

It's been a while, many changes have happened so I haven't updated until things have settled which I think and hope they have.

So, over Xmas I was away for 5 nights so couldn't dose LC02. Algae didn't get too worse but gave me a chance to see it. I don't think it was staghorn but some sort of hair. 

Whilst away I decided that I didn't want it and ordered some algexit and to up the dose of LC02.

Got a new filter - fluvial 306, set it up and dosed the algexit and upped the LC02 to 4.1 ml. After a week the algae seemed to be dying off and was pretty widespread after being away.

A few neons of 12 that have had various symptoms for months started bugging me. I did a bit of research months ago and decided to leave things. Long story short I decided they weren't right so got some melafix and after 5 days it wiped out half my fish.

Spent a week doing large water changes every other day and thus stripped all nitrates (I have really high phosphates in tap water) so started adding TNC complete last week.

Did a rescape, pruned pretty much everything with algae on, added a few swords and a crypt and a small shoal of cardinals and an angelfish. 

I'm adding 2 hrs of extra lighting from an Arcadia stretch 23w.

So far so good, plants look much better with extra light and TNC.


I


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## Jezmond (23 Jan 2018)

As I'm looking at my plants they look much better, possibly erect.!!

I'm thinking  C02  has been the same, nutrients the same (+/- bio load and fertilizer) which leaves the extra light.

Any thoughts. !?

Thanks.


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## ceg4048 (23 Jan 2018)

Hi Jesmond,
                Well, you did water changes, added a new filter, used the TNC regularly, the tank has had an extra 5 weeks to mature and so forth. I'm not sure I would credit the extra 2 hours of light for the improvement. I suppose you could remove the two hours of extra lighting period and see if things deteriorate, then add it again to see if things improve. It's not good to draw conclusions unless hard data is available, otherwise we are just seeing what we want to see...

Cheers,


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## Jezmond (24 Jan 2018)

The best lighting advice to get an idea was from this thread.

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/par-readings-what-are-good-readings.26134/

Plus the chart from this thread

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...-par-instead-watts.html#/topics/184368?page=1





My tank is 16 inches tall so this suggests 2 X T8 lights would be around 50 par and thus plenty of light.

So the Arcadia LED according to the their website is 15 PAR. So assuming this is pretty reliable if I added another it would give me 30 PAR.

So without using a PAR meter and using the best information I can find.

2 X 23watt LED = 30 PAR

Or

2 X 20watt T8 = 50 PAR

When I compare the lights 1 X 23 watt Arcadia LED looks nearly as bright as the 2 X 20watt T8

I'm thinking of getting another 23 watt Arcadia LED and doing away with the T8's. This would be 46watts LED giving 30 PAR and would be much brighter than 2 X T8's

I'm not convinced that the 2 x T8's are giving anywhere near 40-50 PAR, more like half.

If so would 20 PAR a little bit low and plants benefit from an extra short period of extra light.?

Many thanks.


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## ceg4048 (24 Jan 2018)

Hi Jezmond,
                  Well, keep in mind that humans are not very good at seeing blue or red, so sometimes, when you look at a light source, it may not appear to be all that bright, but if there is a fair amount of blue, indigo and violet, then the total energy may be higher than you'd think. Likewise, if a light source has a lot of green, yellow and orange, then it may seem to be brighter to us but may not be as energetic. So one has to be careful using human eyes to determine PAR.

In any case, at the end of the day, you have to be happy with what you are seeing in the tank. If the tank appears dime or has odd colors then you may not enjoy looking at it as much, so if you want to get something brighter, then that's fine. You just need to be aware that as the PAR values climb, so must your diligence in assuring sufficient CO2 and so forth.

Cheers,


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## Danny (25 Jan 2018)

ceg4048 said:


> So any time there is a Carbon shortage, depending on it severity, you will observe various symptoms. Melting, translucent leaves, browning, brown spots, black spots, holes in leaves, falling leaves, deformation of leaves, surface scum, hair algae, BBA, GSA and any other filamentous algae will all be a result, at least in part, to poor CO2.


co2 really does rule the tank.


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