# leaves as a substrate cap



## dan4x4 (29 Sep 2016)

Hi, just wondering if anyone has attempted this? or having no gravel cap. Im sure it you look more natural. Although I haven't thought exactly how I would go about adding water and not disturbing the soil. Maybe if the soil was left in the new aquarium for a few weeks it would stick together more so then i could add water with minimal turbidity to the water column.


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## Aqua360 (30 Sep 2016)

dan4x4 said:


> Hi, just wondering if anyone has attempted this? or having no gravel cap. Im sure it you look more natural. Although I haven't thought exactly how I would go about adding water and not disturbing the soil. Maybe if the soil was left in the new aquarium for a few weeks it would stick together more so then i could add water with minimal turbidity to the water column.



I've seen it in discus tanks, but if I was trying it I'd probs do soil, thin thin sand layer, then the leaves personally


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## Doubu (30 Sep 2016)

I've seen in it some tanks - what I actually did for my last 60P was layer the bottom with Indian Almond Leaves and then add substrate on top of it and inbetween... Not exactly the same but similar. To add water without disturbing soil too much, you'll need lots of patience. What I usually do is put a couple layers of paper towel, put it over a rock or piece of wood and pour water slowly.If you don't have either then I would add a plate or something, the key is to disperse the water slowly. Actually, I mist the tank down to make sure everything is damp first before I start adding water (thoroughly soaking substrate) - this helps prevents soil from floating too much as well.


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## Manisha (30 Sep 2016)

Hi, I just wondered what soil you were using? Substrates designed for Aquarium use like aquasoil & tropica substrate don't need capped & the tesco cat litter (moler clay) shouldn't either...


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## sciencefiction (30 Sep 2016)

I'd say its a recipe for disaster. Leaves decompose and release powdery sort of debris. The only type of leaves I tried that don't do a mess are oak leaves. Uncapped soil is going to cloud for the tiniest of reasons, e.g. fish digging for food...

I'd say look into something else. Soil capped with sand and covered with leaves is a lot better option.


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## dan4x4 (1 Oct 2016)

thanks for the feedback, I'm using john innes no3. I don't want to use any of the fancy soils that need supplementing with co2.


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## Manisha (1 Oct 2016)

sciencefiction said:


> I'd say its a recipe for disaster. Leaves decompose and release powdery sort of debris. The only type of leaves I tried that don't do a mess are oak leaves. Uncapped soil is going to cloud for the tiniest of reasons, e.g. fish digging for food...
> 
> I'd say look into something else. Soil capped with sand and covered with leaves is a lot better option.



I use aquasoil as wasn't more educated about substrates when I got it & use it alone (as thought I'd make too much mess adding sand!) I haven't had trouble yet & have nosey Amano shrimp & greedy, clumsy Angelfish - I just wondered what soil you use? I've seen Tim using the cat litter uncapped too recently - do you think these soils may deteriorate in time?


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## sciencefiction (2 Oct 2016)

Manisha said:


> I use aquasoil as wasn't more educated about substrates when I got it & use it alone (as thought I'd make too much mess adding sand!) I haven't had trouble yet & have nosey Amano shrimp & greedy, clumsy Angelfish - I just wondered what soil you use? I've seen Tim using the cat litter uncapped too recently - do you think these soils may deteriorate in time?



I've used plain topsoil from the garden centre. I'd say its impossible to leave that soil uncapped. Some aquasoils can be used as a standalone substrate though.

 95% of my fish are bottom dwellers. They dig up big time. The corys go halfway with their body into the soil.  I set up a plastic container with soil and fine sand several months ago.  For the first two months the corys in it dug up the soil underneath and it was a mess, soil all over the plant leaves, cloudy water, the lot. I just hadn't put enough soil on top of the sand. I had to siphon out soil daily at some stage. I don't care about the messy look but soil particles settled on top of plant leaves suffocating them.

Same happened with a big bunch of almond leaves in a sand only tank. I was cleaning after them for weeks. When they started breaking down, powdery leaf particles covered all plants and you could see them suspended in the water column too....Oak leaves though take a lot longer to break down and don't do such mess.



dan4x4 said:


> thanks for the feedback, I'm using john innes no3. I don't want to use any of the fancy soils that need supplementing with co2



There's nothing wrong using the john innes soil. But for ease of maintenance and aesthetics its probably better to cap it with sand. You only need a 2cm cap. I'd suggest a slightly coarser sand but if the cap is thin any sand will do as long as it doesn't get blown away by the filters.


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## dan4x4 (3 Oct 2016)

I have low flow mechanical filtration, just enough so theres slight movement in the water. its turned all the way down and partially blocked at the front. This is in an attempt to minimise co2 gassing off at the surface. I have too lighting periods as well, again in order to make most efficient use of co2.

I don't mind the gravel looking dirty and I like the idea of tannins in the water, however I don't want the tank to be a murky puddle of mud so I will stick to using a cap on the new tank. 

I can say for sure that the oak leaves I put in haven't released any noticeable amounts of tannins yet. Its a 60l tank. I only put 2 in to begin with. One is still floating after 48 hours! 

I will add another one tomorrow to the current tank. The red crystal shrimp haven't paid the leaves any attention but now one has sunk I'm hoping they will. I know my amano I had ages ago used to love the indian almond leaves.


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## JSeymour (4 Oct 2016)

Another vote for a sand capping here, mostly due to mess. If it was something you wanted to do, I'd add a bit of powdered bentonite clay to act as a flocculant. Adding oak leaves, I definitely recommend this, it looks so good!
An old tank of mine.


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## Andy D (4 Oct 2016)

dan4x4 said:


> I can say for sure that the oak leaves I put in haven't released any noticeable amounts of tannins yet.



Don't expect them too either. I have used oak leaves a lot and they release hardly any tannins (if any at all). They do take ages to break down as well which I like.

If you want a nice tint then alder cones work well. Indian almond leaves also do a great job.


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## dw1305 (4 Oct 2016)

Hi all, 





dan4x4 said:


> I'm using john innes no3.





dan4x4 said:


> I have low flow mechanical filtration, just enough so theres slight movement in the water. its turned all the way down and partially blocked at the front. This is in an attempt to minimise co2 gassing off at the surface. I have too lighting periods as well, again in order to make most efficient use of co2.


I'd be a bit worried about this, <"JI No.3 is very nutrient rich">, and that combined with the lack of water movement could asphyxiate your livestock. 

cheers Darrel


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## dan4x4 (5 Oct 2016)

Thanks, Ill keep an eye out for some alder cones, I'd like to give that a try. Walstad states that the tannins are beneficial for the tank, also I imagine it will make it more natural looking.

If I'm honest I don't test my water. I look at the plants and fish in the hope that there will be an indication of something going wrong. Nutrient levels in the wild are nowhere near as consistent as what we have in a well kept aquarium. I'm not saying any one is wrong or right here, its just my method.


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## JSeymour (8 Dec 2016)

Thought I'd add this real quick if your still interested.



From, How to make a peatswamp-aquarium with Cryptocorye and BarclayaI with some notes on fish:
https://crypts.home.xs4all.nl/Cryptocoryne/Botanical/Documents/Berge/Berge2014.pdf


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## dan4x4 (9 Dec 2016)

JSeymour said:


> Thought I'd add this real quick if your still interested.
> View attachment 95495
> From, How to make a peatswamp-aquarium with Cryptocorye and BarclayaI with some notes on fish:
> https://crypts.home.xs4all.nl/Cryptocoryne/Botanical/Documents/Berge/Berge2014.pdf



I love this!


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## micheljq (21 Dec 2016)

Fallen, brown, Alder leaves and mature fruits release tannins and make the pH go down, if this is what someone is looking for.

Michel.


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## Aqua360 (22 Dec 2016)

I'd say nutrient levels in the wild are far more balanced than in an aquarium....Body of water etc, and equilibrium; for example in many bodies of water you will never ever see nitrate above 5ppm, probably even less. Though I'm here to learn, so if this isn't the case please provide info


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## Kezzab (31 Dec 2016)

Really interesting link re the crypt swamp. What is the significance of beech leaves over any other kind of leaf litter/leaf mould? Sycamore is what is more immediately to hand near me.


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## dw1305 (2 Jan 2017)

Hi all, 





Kezzab said:


> What is the significance of beech leaves over any other kind of leaf litter/leaf mould?


They are really long lasting. Sycamore (_Acer pseudoplatanus_) will break down a lot quicker, and add more nutrients. Oak (_Quercus robur_) leaves also last well, if they are easier to source?

cheers Darrel


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## prdad (19 Jan 2018)

Some interesting ideas here. http://bugs.bio.usyd.edu.au/learning/resources/Mycology/Habitats/aquaticFungi.shtml

Aquatic mycelium eating the leaves and creating food for our shrimp and fry.


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