# Two complete CO2 System vs One with multi output regulator



## N_F_S (9 Dec 2020)

Hello again. 

My next doubt are related with CO2 configuration to my tank. Right now, I  setup the new tank (5 days before) with a cheap CO2 regulator and in-tank diffuser (80€ all Kit) that I achieved from lfs only to not delay the start up.

I want now upgrade to the final setup, and I'm thinking to buy CO2Art setup with two inline diffuser (one for each Case Biomaster 850 Thermo). In your opinion, which is the best configuration?

*Shared Setup with two output :* 1 CO2 FE + 1 CO2Art *Elite* Regulator + 2 outputs option (with two needle valves) + 2 inline diffuser
*Isolated Outputs: * 2x (1 CO2 FE + 1 CO2Art *Pro SE* Regulator + 1 inline diffuser)
From what I saw in the CO2Art site, the main differences between Elite and PRO SE regulators, are the Elite can have multiple outputs and almost the double working pressure.

What your thoughts about this?

Thanks in advance


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## Driftless (9 Dec 2020)

Are you talking about one or two tanks?


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## N_F_S (9 Dec 2020)

Driftless said:


> Are you talking about one or two tanks?


Only one. But because it's has 1,70m, I want to inject in both filters to get better co2 distribution in the water.


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## Wolf6 (9 Dec 2020)

I dont think it matters much, only for how often you have to change the co2 tank. In the end its just co2 being added into the tank via 2 routes, doesnt matter if that co2 comes from different sources or the same source. Big advantage of having 1 co2 reg with 2 outputs would be that you require far less space in your cabinet then 2 bottles would. Downside is the bottle will deplete faster then 2 bottles.


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## N_F_S (9 Dec 2020)

Wolf6 said:


> I dont think it matters much, only for how often you have to change the co2 tank. In the end its just co2 being added into the tank via 2 routes, doesnt matter if that co2 comes from different sources or the same source. Big advantage of having 1 co2 reg with 2 outputs would be that you require far less space in your cabinet then 2 bottles would. Downside is the bottle will deplete faster then 2 bottles.



Thank you.


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## Zeus. (9 Dec 2020)

Or go for twin solenoids as well (I did), The major advantage of twin solenoids and needle valves IMO/IME is it makes doing you pH profile so easy. Have both on for pH drop and one on to hold the pH.
The one you have on for the whole CO2 period you adjust till till your pH is stable from lights on till CO2 off. The one CO2 injection line for pH drop I have the needle valve fully open and soon as you reach your target pH and lights come on that CO2 injection switches off. Having twin solenoids makes sense to me but I am unaware of any one else who does it. Other advantage is you ca drop the pH fast, I can drop a 500l tank over 1.0pH in 30 mins. I have a spare CO2 cylinder so when it runs out a just swap over easy. Having two go empty at same time cant happen.
Having got two tanks on CO2 one duel stage and the other not I would say a duel stage with pressure regulation is better as it gives more flexibility/control


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## N_F_S (9 Dec 2020)

Zeus. said:


> Or go for twin solenoids as well (I did), The major advantage of twin solenoids and needle valves IMO/IME is it makes doing you pH profile so easy. Have both on for pH drop and one on to hold the pH.
> The one you have on for the whole CO2 period you adjust till till your pH is stable from lights on till CO2 off. The one CO2 injection line for pH drop I have the needle valve fully open and soon as you reach your target pH and lights come on that CO2 injection switches off. Having twin solenoids makes sense to me but I am unaware of any one else who does it. Other advantage is you ca drop the pH fast, I can drop a 500l tank over 1.0pH in 30 mins. I have a spare CO2 cylinder so when it runs out a just swap over easy. Having two go empty at same time cant happen.
> Having got two tanks on CO2 one duel stage and the other not I would say a duel stage with pressure regulation is better as it gives more flexibility/control


Thank you Zeus.

When I started this thread, I have two subjects that I'm wondering if one of the scenarios (shared vs isolated) are better. 

First, is regarding the working pressure, I don't know, if a shared co2 regulator with 2 outputs, will stay stable in both diffusers or it's easier to accomplish with 2 isolated regulators.
To other thing I was wondering, it's exactly your scenario. I'm with some difficult to adjust CO2, because I get a lime green DC on lights on (start 1:45 before), but the DC is yellow on lights off. And with two isolated regulators with to solenoids I can change the CO2 flow during the lights, switching off one of the regulators. (I don't know any dual solenoid in the same regulator). I know I can reduce the BPS and turn the CO2 on early, but I don't know what approach it's more efficient. 

Are you ok with your setup?


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## Zeus. (9 Dec 2020)

Well if you have a duel stage you will be able to adjust the working pressure, mine will go over 100psi. Adjusting the working pressure affects all outputs.


N_F_S said:


> I'm with some difficult to adjust CO2, because I get a lime green DC on lights on (start 1:45 before), but the DC is yellow on lights off.


which is unstable, normally you have to adjust the injection rate till the pH is stable from lights on till CO2 off, once this is achieved the injection rate should not be changed (which is where most go wrong). Once pH stability is achieved from lights on till CO2 off the pre CO2 on time is the time it takes to drop the pH to your target pH, you can not speed it up or slow it down with one solenoid. Change the injection rate via needle valve or working PSI and the pH will no longer be stable during photo period.
Bigger tanks take longer to drop the pH 3 to 4 hours or due when the user has a stable pH from lights on.
Having twin solenoids and needle valves ( or  two CO2 complete setups) on one tank changes everything. as once your target pH is reached just switch one off. You can then adjust the other via needle value, but it takes many goes to get it right all the same.

My injection rate


However using twin injection like I have carries a big *RISK, *if the timer fails to switch off with the high injection rate your pH will continue to drop and all the livestock in your tank will be *DEAD*. So you need reliable timers. I have a PLC to control all my tank (many thanks to @ian_m who helps loads with it) so I can trust the CO2 will goes off when it should. If your using cheapo timers don't use twin solenoids as timers do fail. I did the PLC to control my lights mainly so it changes intensity etc via the software, but also made controlling the CO2 easy and *reliable* too.

pH controllers have a place too, I use to use one. The best place for a pH controller is in the box in came in, pH controllers swing the pH all day long and you have to calibrate them regular - so I would give them a miss.

pH pen is very useful and a good one can cost £100 easy, pH papers are good also but IMO a cheapo pH pan has its place too and handy for doing pH profiles


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## N_F_S (10 Dec 2020)

Zeus. said:


> However using twin injection like I have carries a big *RISK, *if the timer fails to switch off with the high injection rate your pH will continue to drop and all the livestock in your tank will be *DEAD*. So you need reliable timers. I have a PLC to control all my tank (many thanks to @ian_m who helps loads with it) so I can trust the CO2 will goes off when it should. If your using cheapo timers don't use twin solenoids as timers do fail. I did the PLC to control my lights mainly so it changes intensity etc via the software, but also made controlling the CO2 easy and *reliable* too.
> 
> pH controllers have a place too, I use to use one. The best place for a pH controller is in the box in came in, pH controllers swing the pH all day long and you have to calibrate them regular - so I would give them a miss.
> 
> pH pen is very useful and a good one can cost £100 easy, pH papers are good also but IMO a cheapo pH pan has its place too and handy for doing pH profiles



Ok, with this disclaimer, I already choose for the shared setup . It's safer to turn on the CO2 earlier with less danger for the fish, than using two solenoids.

But I really like the idea of using PLC. I will check the PLC thread soon.

Thank you for your help.


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## ian_m (10 Dec 2020)

You do a dual CO2 injection system like this. You have to have two needle valves so you can balance the CO2 flow between the two diffusers. Many people have implemented this type setup with no issues.


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## N_F_S (11 Dec 2020)

ian_m said:


> You do a dual CO2 injection system like this. You have to have two needle valves so you can balance the CO2 flow between the two diffusers. Many people have implemented this type setup with no issues.
> View attachment 157648


Yes, I will go for this. I will do a slight modification, and try not use the CO2 bottle in the horizontal position 😂


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## ian_m (11 Dec 2020)

N_F_S said:


> will do a slight modification, and try not use the CO2 bottle in the horizontal position 😂


I ran with my CO2 fire extinguisher on its side, in a magazine rack for months, no problem.

Theoretically we should really run fire extinguishers upside down, or take them apart and remove the "dip tube" so that we are only taking output from the gas rather than the liquid.



In the end we are using so little gas, compared to putting a fire out, it doesn't really matter which way we run out extinguishers, there is absolutely no chances of liquid CO2 getting into our regulators.


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## Zeus. (11 Dec 2020)

ian_m said:


> it doesn't really matter which way we run out extinguishers


Think the only reason why they should be vertical is in case the top blows off, if that happened it would be a case of torpedo away!!! However the chances of that happening is very slim indeed IMO.


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## Mr.Shenanagins (11 Dec 2020)

Zeus. said:


> So you need reliable timers. I have a PLC to control all my tank (many thanks to @ian_m who helps loads with it) so I can trust the CO2 will goes off when it should. If your using cheapo timers don't use twin solenoids as timers do fail.


Another solution for reliable timing are WiFi plugs. I use the KASA TP-Link plug and it’s fantastic, will never use analog or digital timers ever again. The plugs are easy to manipulate through the App.


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## Zeus. (11 Dec 2020)

Mr.Shenanagins said:


> Another solution for reliable timing are WiFi plugs. I use the KASA TP-Link plug and it’s fantastic, will never use analog or digital timers ever again. The plugs are easy to manipulate through the App.


Looked at various WiFI systems before finding about PLCs and our resident expert (@ian_m )  and not a bad price, however I don't trust WiFI connections as they can be unreliable esp when the on/off may be critical to livestock.


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## Mr.Shenanagins (11 Dec 2020)

Zeus. said:


> Looked at various WiFI systems before finding about PLCs and our resident expert (@ian_m )  and not a bad price, however I don't trust WiFI connections as they can be unreliable esp when the on/off may be critical to livestock.


I have to agree. However, I can honestly say these specific plugs work excellent and work literally like clockwork.


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## N_F_S (12 Dec 2020)

My timer, it's digital, has battery, but already change the clock 2 times


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