# I accidentally salted my assassin snails with EI ferts



## ladybones718 (8 Apr 2022)

I have been trying to learn a lot and try new things in the past 5 months. I’ve been in the hobby for 3 years. Nothing was working especially well before this, but I do have an established 10 gallon tank. In January I decided to take the plunge and set up CO2, using the pH drop method. I also started dosing NilocG EI ferts about 3 weeks ago. So far so good. I then learned that my soft water would be detrimental to my assassin snails shells, so in an attempt to raise my KH (which normally sits at 3) I used baking soda. I opted for baking soda over crushed coral because it didn’t mess with my pH. But between the baking soda and the daily EI ferts and even with weekly 50% water changes, I salted and killed my assassins that I had for 2+ years. 

I’m about to start a new 12 gallon long tank and I would like to have assassins again. But I’ll be honest, I’m starting to think it’s piling my plate too high to try to balance all this chemistry for snails. I have not fertilized my 10 gallon tank for a week since I lost the snails, hoping to get one more 50% water change before I start again. Anyone care to propose a strategy for what I’m trying to accomplish? In the meantime, I guess I will dose my 10 gallon with 2mL doses of EI ferts rather than the 8mL I was doing before. I’m leaving the baking soda out because I have no more snails. 

And yes, I am aware about salt and how it never leaves the tank unless you remove it. This just escaped my common sense for the moment.

Thanks. I hope this makes sense, but I’m sure people might have questions. I really appreciate the help. 


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## Simon Cole (9 Apr 2022)

There are a few threads on this subject. The reconstituter and dolomite threads have interesting background information, there is also a recent thread of what people actually use with a link to the IFC calculator. Plenty of options if you want to reduce sodium levels. You just need to switch to something more suitable. Congratulations to our members for the hard work they have done developing this expertise in the past.

I use crushed pumice in all of my canister filters. If you were looking to replace your filter medium anyway, why not take advantage and use that to slightly reduce the amount of remineralisers that you choose. You could also look at using a dolomite clay when you are next working with a substrate in order to achieve the same slight benefit, but there is probably little certainty that these options will work on their own.


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## seedoubleyou (9 Apr 2022)

ladybones718 said:


> I have been trying to learn a lot and try new things in the past 5 months


I think your answer is right here.  
You’re trying to do too much.
Keep it simple.


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## Djoko Sauza (9 Apr 2022)

I'm sorry about your snails.

How much baking soda did you add? The sodium is probably the reason your snails died, rather than the ferts.

Baking soda, aka sodium bicarbonate, will raise your ph. It's in the name: sodium bi*carbonate*.

It could also be that your baseline ph increased due to the baking soda and, chasing that 1ph drop using an old ph benchmark, you added way too much CO2? Are you using a ph controller?

3kh should be fine for assassin snails by the way, I would only add something if you notice their shell eroding.



ladybones718 said:


> And yes, I am aware about salt and how it never leaves the tank unless you remove it.


Water changes take care of that. The solution to pollution is dilution.


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## zozo (9 Apr 2022)

It seems cuttlebone is often used by aquatic snail keepers with soft water. 

Some throw a complete shell in the tank and wait for it to sink. It is Aragonite built from CaCo3 that will dissolve really slow into the water.
Others crush the bone into a powder or smaller pieces and put in in the filter to speed up the dissolving process.

I'm not sure if snails and shrimp eat the bone itself, they might graze on the aufwuchs (biofilm) that grows to it and pick up tiny amounts of extra calcium.

Anyway if it doesn't help it doesn't hurt... I have no personal experience and it seems aquatic snail lovers with soft water love cuttlebone...


In my native language, we have a saying "That or he/she is putting salt on every snail"  It means something like that or he/she is nitpicking or making issues about every little thing there is to find.


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## Stu1407 (9 Apr 2022)

Just a thought. You had the snails for 2.5 years and I'm assuming that they were in good health before you added the baking soda. It strikes me that in that situation you would have been better off just leaving it alone or adding a cuttle fish bone like Zozo says, that would change the water parameters gradually. The snails did not have a problem but you unfortunately ended up creating one for them and yourself.


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## Hanuman (9 Apr 2022)

I don't know how much baking soda you added but as a general rule of thumb when you want to increase the KH of your water NEVER EVER do it in one go. Do it gradually in a matter of a few weeks if not you will kill all fish/snails etc. That's because KH impacts their osmoregulatory systems. A 2-3 dKH swing is enough to stress or kill them. If you want to increase the hardness slowly, then cuttlebone, corals etc are the best methods as the KH increase is progressive.


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## Yugang (9 Apr 2022)

I add one grinded eggshell in my 200 l tank weekly at WC. Make sure you disinfect with boiling water first. In a CO2 injected tank it will gradually dissolve, and there is no build-up.


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## Hanuman (9 Apr 2022)

Yugang said:


> I add one grinded eggshell in my 200 l tank weekly at WC. Make sure you disinfect with boiling water first. In a CO2 injected tank it will gradually dissolve, and there is no build-up.


Nice. What KH increase you get with 1 egg shell?


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## Yugang (9 Apr 2022)

Hanuman said:


> Nice. What KH increase you get with 1 egg shell?


If I remember correctly it is about 1-1.5 KH increase. I just want some Calcium source for my shrimp.


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## Hanuman (9 Apr 2022)

And that shell fully dissolves every week?


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## Yugang (9 Apr 2022)

Yes it does. Started doing this a couple of months ago, and have no noticeable buildup of the white powder. I am aware that it is supposed to dissolve very slowly, at higher pH, but apparently it works in my CO2 injected tank with a lower pH.


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## zozo (9 Apr 2022)

Eggshell vs cuttlefish bone​Chemistry teaches that eggshell and cuttlefish bones are both made of Calcium Carbonate. So, why should we prefer the second to the first one?

This table helps understanding the differences:






Both are mainly composed of Calcium Carbonate and in both cases calcium is available at 100%.

The difference is in that the egg is made of Calcite, while the bone is made of Aragonite.
 But what does that mean?

Both are Calcium carbonates, but the substantial difference is their crystalline structure. The first is very stable, while the second is more «unstable», or better metastable. Due to this stability the eggshell melt less easier than the cuttlebone.

By trying to crush the eggshell, the powder will tend to stay in the water for longer and, moreover, the animals will eat it less.

To better understand the chemical difference between these two elements it may be useful to make a similarity with Graphite (for example of the pencils) and diamond: they are both made of Carbon, the same identical element. The difference is how Carbon binds itself: in Graphite it is arranged in planes flowing one over the other. In the diamond, however, this element forms an extremely strong, giant grid.









						Cuttlefish bone: what is it and how to use it? - Acquariofilia Facile
					

Cuttlefish bone in the aquarium? Sure! In this article we explain you why to use it and how to use it.



					acquariofilia.org


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## Yugang (9 Apr 2022)

zozo said:


> Eggshell vs cuttlefish bone​Chemistry teaches that eggshell and cuttlefish bones are both made of Calcium Carbonate. So, why should we prefer the second to the first one?
> 
> This table helps understanding the differences:
> 
> ...


I was not aware of this, thank you.

Is the takeaway that it is better not to use crushed eggshell then? Perhaps it depends on whether you do it to benefit from the dissolved Ca, or rather that you hope the shrimp and snails would eat the powder? I am not the inventor of the crushed eggshell as cheap solution, was under the assumption that it is a tested practice and when disinfected could do no harm.


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## Hanuman (9 Apr 2022)

I think it depends on the purpose and the setup. If you have a Co2 injected tank I think the difference is pretty irrelevant because as you said your egg shell pretty much dissolves in a week time. Is that the only calcium source you add though?


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## Yugang (9 Apr 2022)

Hanuman said:


> I think it depends on the purpose and the setup. If you have a Co2 injected tank I think the difference is pretty irrelevant because as you said your egg shell pretty much dissolves in a week time. Is that the only calcium source you add though



The only reason that I add Ca is for shrimp, as there seems consensus that Ca deficiency for plants is unlikely. So I started adding CaCl a couple of months ago in small amounts.

Even before I used eggshells and CaCl I had no indication that my shrimp were unhappy. HK water however, depending on season, can have pretty low Ca, so just out of caution and care for the shrimp that  I add some.


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## zozo (9 Apr 2022)

Yugang said:


> Is the takeaway that it is better not to use crushed eggshell then?



I can't say... I kinda find the answers to the question of what is better or best in the aquarium hobby a tad mythical based upon personal experiences deemed or often presented as universally applicable, which they never really are... The article states (explains why) Calcite dissolves slower than Aragonite does. It doesn't say therefore Calcite can't be sufficient, it's simply slower dissolving. Eating less doesn't mean it's not enough. If it is enough then eating more isn't necessarily better. Then all I can do is refer back to the saying "If it doesn't help it doesn't hurt." 

My personal conclusion is if you suffer from calcium shortage and Eggshell doesn't seem to solve the problem you might want to try Cuttlebone instead.

I guess it's a bit based upon the Redfield ratio / Estimative Index? If I'm not mistaken... Always having more than you need as a starting point never will be too less. Then that is best?

Same as what is said about filters, the wet and dry trickle sump is the Rolls Royce of all filters, that would make a canister a Mini Cooper? If both still can bring you from A to where you need to B, then doesn't make the Rolls Royce better than the Mini.


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## Hanuman (9 Apr 2022)

Yugang said:


> The only reason that I add Ca is for shrimp, as there seems consensus that Ca deficiency for plants is unlikely. So I started adding CaCl a couple of months ago in small amounts.
> 
> Even before I used eggshells and CaCl I had no indication that my shrimp were unhappy. HK water however, depending on season, can have pretty low Ca, so just out of caution and care for the shrimp that I add some.


Not sure what level of CaCl you are adding but if you have shrimps the general consensus is that 3-5dKH is a good level. So depending how much CaCl you are adding + the egg shell + tap water it could be enough, or not.


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## Simon Cole (9 Apr 2022)

Yugang said:


> ...there seems consensus that Ca deficiency for plants is unlikely


Interesting to consider this. I suspected a calcium deficiency in pictures of plants grown in a RO water aquarium (with considerable dosing of Epsom salts) posted by a member a few years back. Ca2+ and Mg2+ appear to have antagonistic interactions in plant cells, and therefore terrestrial plants depend on a homeostatic balance between Ca2+ and Mg2+ for optimal growth and development, which is in the ratio of 3:1. Perhaps this is not such a factor with aquarium plants. I would presume some of the deterioration in snail shells could be due to similar antagonism. To me it seems logical that you want bicarbonate ions and calcium present in the water.

I have also tried dissolving egg shells in deionised water years ago, but it did not work, unsurprisingly  I should have added lemon juice.

I currently use Evian bottled water for terrestrial plants suffering from calcium deficiencies and to raise the water hardness at the same time. It is 360 ppm bicarbonates (1-), 14 ppm sulphates (2-) and 10 ppm chlorides (2-), with 80 ppm calcium (2+). So by my calculations, 1 litre of Evian should give you a 1 KH rise for every 21 litres of water treated and it would cost £1.28 ($1.67) to treat this 10 gallon aquarium with around 2 litres of Evian bottled water in order to raise carbonate hardness to 4 KH (at current UK prices).  It is the only water I am drinking at the moment because I think it really helps to maintain tooth enamel and prevent tooth decay and the tap water where I am right now has barely any carbonates and negligible calcium ions. I still think dolomite clays and pumice would be a good mitigation, but if I did not want to mix salts or if it was cheaper, then I would opt for Evian bottled water because it has determined chemical parameters and you can adjust the dosage accordingly.


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## Yugang (9 Apr 2022)

We recently had this thread Latest insights on Calcium
I started it, as I was always a bit confused hearing about Ca deficiency and Ca/Mg ratios. 

The takeaway at that time, at least my understanding, is that for plants we should not worry about Ca - Just a little, basically anything will be enough. The shrimps and snails is why Ca is really important.


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## ladybones718 (9 Apr 2022)

So many great and very informative responses here, so I will just respond generally, and answer the question or two about what I was doing. I was adding 1/2 teaspoon or 1.7 grams of baking soda with my 50% water changes. I had been doing this since early March so you can see the compounding effect (so stupid of me, I truly didn’t associate it with “salt” until I remembered “sodium” bicarbonate). But it wasn’t until I was two weeks into EI ferts that the snails died. I think it was just all of it. 

I chose baking soda over crushed coral because I had heard that crushed coral can raise pH. I will also add though, that I had heard just as many people say that crushed coral does not raise pH and that baking soda did. I can tell you what my own experience was: the KH went up to 8 and was maintained at 8 degrees and the pH stayed steady at 6.8 to 7.0 with CO2. (I think I’m likely underdosing CO2 for the time being until I get the new larger tank set up). 

So, from reading all this, I’m thinking I should find some source of calcium carbonate. For my purposes in the new tank, this would be an additive rather than a substrate. I would definitely add this after the new tank has been established. I’m using an aquasoil in the new tank (versus the fluorite I currently have) and I’d like to try lean dosing of the EI ferts, if I can get away with it. 

But I’m also really curious by a couple comments here saying that a KH of 3 isn’t too low for snails. I never really cared about the KH until I started injecting CO2, and this old tank has had all kinds of pH swings over the years, just from the municipal water. The snails were always fine. In fact, over the past 3 years, I’ve only lost 2 fish before I lost the two snails together. Maybe my best bet is to go back to not worrying about the snails. 

But the million dollar question is, knowing all this, what do folks here think killed my snails? I think it’s the combination of EI ferts and the baking soda. Can one possibly overdose EI ferts to the detriment of invertebrates? 

Thanks. 


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## Hanuman (10 Apr 2022)

ladybones718 said:


> I was adding 1/2 teaspoon or 1.7 grams of baking soda with my 50% water changes.


That's equivalent to ~3dKH for 19L. If you started dosing like this the first time and nothing much happened then it is most probably the sodium that progressively killed the snails. It looks like it accumulated to he point where it became lethal. Sodium doesn't have much business being in a softwater tank.



ladybones718 said:


> I chose baking soda over crushed coral because I had heard that crushed coral can raise pH.


Anyone correct me if I am wrong but it doesn't matter where the carbonate is coming from since the higher the KH the higher the PH. With coral or cuttlebone it will just be more progressive.



ladybones718 said:


> So, from reading all this, I’m thinking I should find some source of calcium carbonate. For my purposes in the new tank, this would be an additive rather than a substrate. I would definitely add this after the new tank has been established. I’m using an aquasoil in the new tank (versus the fluorite I currently have) and I’d like to try lean dosing of the EI ferts, if I can get away with it.


If you want to go natural, then cuttlebone, corals, egg shell. All those will work. If what you want is only Calcium then Calcium Sulphate (CaSo4) will do the job and it does not provide any KH. A lot of people in here use CaSo4 for their Ca source.



ladybones718 said:


> But I’m also really curious by a couple comments here saying that a KH of 3 isn’t too low for snails. I never really cared about the KH until I started injecting CO2, and this old tank has had all kinds of pH swings over the years, just from the municipal water. The snails were always fine. In fact, over the past 3 years, I’ve only lost 2 fish before I lost the two snails together. Maybe my best bet is to go back to not worrying about the snails.


Well a lot of people me included have a KH = 0. I have small snails in there but you need to be aware that if you are injecting CO2 it's the acidity that will create problems with your snails as their shell will dissolve with time. <Read this topic> and also the linked topics within it specially those of @dw1305



ladybones718 said:


> I think it’s the combination of EI ferts and the baking soda. Can one possibly overdose EI ferts to the detriment of invertebrates?


I would say yes but it would have to be a very gross overdose. Also depending what traces you used if there was too much copper in there that would definitely kill them. But considering what you have said, it looks to me like it is the sodium that accumulated that killed the snails.


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## Hanuman (10 Apr 2022)

Simon Cole said:


> I use crushed pumice in all of my canister filters.


Side note, I think depending the type of pumice it might not be a good idea to have that in the filter. I know it is common practice and even Seachem sells it as Matrix to be used as a biological media, but rich silica pumice being abrasive due to all the oxides it contains will increase the rate at which the impeller gets damaged/used.


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## ladybones718 (10 Apr 2022)

Wow. It’s so dispiriting learning that snails are probably not recommended in high tech tanks. I’ll have to ponder all this. I suppose I could just try them with a cuttlebone or wonder shell. But it does worry me. 


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## Simon Cole (10 Apr 2022)

Hanuman said:


> rich silica pumice being abrasive due to all the oxides it contains will increase the rate at which the impeller gets damaged/used


I have used it in 6 canister filters and the propellers are unaffected and usually a bit slimy. If you have a filter that sucks media towards the impeller then use a piece of medium-size sponge or a nylon mesh bag.


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## Djoko Sauza (10 Apr 2022)

ladybones718 said:


> Wow. It’s so dispiriting learning that snails are probably not recommended in high tech tanks. I’ll have to ponder all this. I suppose I could just try them with a cuttlebone or wonder shell. But it does worry me.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


No need to worry, just use cuttlebone, hardscape with seiryu stone or use less CO2. On a high tech tank keeping snails alive will probably be the easiest of your challenges.


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## Hanuman (10 Apr 2022)

Simon Cole said:


> You state that as a fact. I have used it in 6 canister filters and the propellers are unaffected and usually a bit slimy. If you have a filter that sucks media towards the impeller then use a piece of medium-size sponge or a nylon mesh bag.



Well it is a fact that pumice is composed of silica, more or less depending its origin. Silica is by nature abrasive. Impellers are usually made of plastic and the shaft of ceramic or SS. It’s not because you have had it in 6 filters that my statement is wrong and that your experience proves me wrong. Also please note my choice of words. I said: «will increase the rate of …».

Abrasion will not happen overnight. Additional to that you are stating as if the problem would be the media being sucked to the impellor. That’s not what causes abrasion. Pumice will slowly desagregate in a filter due to friction and it’s the dust that is the problem. Not the large chunks.


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## Simon Cole (10 Apr 2022)

Hanuman said:


> It’s not because you have had it in 6 filters that my statement is wrong and that your experience proves me wrong...
> Pumice will slowly desagregate in a filter due to friction and it’s the dust that is the problem.


I've not had dust going through the impeller. There may be a bit somewhere in the cannister. It's been three years since I started using it. If I notice any problems, I'll post an update.


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## Hanuman (10 Apr 2022)

Simon Cole said:


> I've not had dust going through the impeller. There may be a bit somewhere in the cannister. It's been three years since I started using it. If I notice any problems, I'll post an update.



There are extremely fine particles. You won’t see them. I’m not trying to say that people should not use pumice. I am simply stating a mechanical property of pumice and the fact that the life of the impellor will be reduced due to that. Not a big deal. In fact I have myself some S. Matrix in my canister, and I don’t sweat it.


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## ladybones718 (10 Apr 2022)

Hanuman said:


> There are extremely fine particles. You won’t see them. I’m not trying to say that people should not use pumice. I am simply stating a mechanical property of pumice and the fact that the life of the impellor will be reduced due to that. Not a big deal. In fact I have myself some S. Matrix in my canister, and I don’t sweat it.



I will also be keeping an eye on this part of the convo as well as I am running Matrix in my current tank which I will be using to establish the BB in my new tank where I am also running Matrix. I think impellers have to be replaced on a somewhat regular basis on my canister filter (although I don’t know how often that is).


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## Hanuman (11 Apr 2022)

Hanuman said:


> it might not be a good idea to have that in the filter.


Maybe I should not have worded it that way, as it triggered some reaction specially since I have some Matrix in my canister 😆

Honestly don't sweat it. I was making a simple side note comment, not someting of great importance. For you to able to properly assess the erosion you would need 2 canisters one with and the other without pumice so you can compare. And as you said it impellers should be replaced anyway, not always because of the impeller itself but because other bits get uses or hardened, like the rubber parts supporting the shaft for example.
Anyhow I am totally off topic so let's keep it here 😀


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## LMuhlen (11 Apr 2022)

I've been looking at some numbers to see if this idea of bicarbonate killing snails makes sense. I'm worried because I also use it in similar quantities.

So 3 dKH of sodium bicarbonate adds 25ppm of sodium. With 50% water changes, your accumulation maxes at 50ppm.

I'm seeing some references for "soft" brackish water mentioning values as low as 165 ppm of sodium, but most cases at 500ppm+.

So it seems that 50ppm still leaves us safely in the fresh water category. Is it really possible that these levels of sodium can hurt our more sensitive fauna?


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## ladybones718 (11 Apr 2022)

LMuhlen said:


> I've been looking at some numbers to see if this idea of bicarbonate killing snails makes sense. I'm worried because I also use it in similar quantities.
> 
> Is it really possible that these levels of sodium can hurt our more sensitive fauna?



Hanuman and others here think it’s not a great idea to use it in a soft water tank. So I’m going err on the side of caution and stop. 


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## LMuhlen (11 Apr 2022)

I also think that any CaCO3 based product would be less than ideal, since you would have an osmotic shock with every water change, removing hard water and adding soft water, then having it harden slowly over the week.

I don't know of an alternative to raise KH, I don't have access to potassium bicarbonate and my understanding is that KH aquarium products are basically sodium bicarbonate in a fancy package.

That's why it worries me to consider sodium bicarbonate as unsafe, I need to raise KH for my shrimps, or so I'm told.


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## dw1305 (11 Apr 2022)

Hi all,
I'm guessing that Assassin Snails (Clea (_Anetome) helena_) aren't too bothered by 50 ppm sodium (Na). They don't <"survive in soft water"> long term.


LMuhlen said:


> So it seems that 50ppm still leaves us safely in the fresh water category. Is it really possible that these levels of sodium can hurt our more sensitive fauna?


Limestone aquifers often supply water with <"quite  a lot of sodium, and if those limestones formed in evaporite basins?>"  They can be very salt(s) rich.  Lake Tanganyika, for example, would be <"pretty sodium rich">.

Having said that it does depend on the fish and the plants, soft water organisms don't tend to do well in <"water with much sodium  in it"> and I try to limit its level in the tank.

cheers Darrel


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