# Staurogyne Repens suffering!



## dkraft12 (21 Nov 2016)

Hi everyone!

Wanted to ask for some help, I have a 20 gallon planted tank with a bunch of staurogyne repens that seem to be suffering.  Some stats on the tank...

Lights: 2 x 105 (.1W) LED fixtures 6500K
Co2: Pressurized w/ solenoid 2-3 bps - indicator is dark green
pH: 7.8-8.0
Ferts: E.I w/ 1/4tsp traces, 1/8tsp KNO3, 1/32tsp monopotassium phosphate - all once per week after 25% water change.
substrate: inert sand.
fish: cherry barbs, neon tetras, 1 dwarf gourami, and 2 german blue rams.

The repens when i first added them grew very fast and came in nicely, this was roughly 1.5 to two months ago.  For some reason lately they look droopy and are even getting holes in the leaves.  I noticed that the few that are still looking very healthy may be shaded by my amazon sword (ones in the back).  Could this be an issue of Co2/light balance? too much light and not enough co2 to the ones in direct light? Could it be that I have a nutrient deficiency?  all of my other plants seem to be doing very well (crypts, anubias, DHG, swords), and i have no algae in the tank so I am confused as to why these guys aren't doing well. 

Any and all help is appreciated!


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## Mark Allen (21 Nov 2016)

One thing I was told 50 to 80% water change per week for a planted tank. Not saying that's the cause, because I don't know much


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## AverageWhiteBloke (21 Nov 2016)

Not sure about the light fixtures, do you have any more details? Holes in leaves can be associated with poor co2. Generally speaking your drop checker wants to be lime green at lights on time rather than dark. When dosing EI you can pretty much rule out the level of nutrients if done correctly. EI by its very nature means you are supplying more nutrients than your plants could physically use regardless of how much light you are throwing over the tank. However, any reason why you're dumping them all in the tank in one go? Most people will dose on alternate days, macros then micro/traces. I believe this is so the iron  in the traces doesn't react with the phosphate in the macros.
That been said, does sound like a co2 distribution issue. I would crank it up a little and make sure the S.Repens has a good flow of water round them. Also note, 20 Galls is approx. 90 ltrs so unless I'm understanding you wrong those doses you are adding should be added 3x per week not once to be within EI levels.


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## kadoxu (21 Nov 2016)

With EI you should do a bigger water change...

What about other water parameters like GH and KH?

I think you are dosing way too much traces... some quick calculations and usually 1tbs + 500ml of water should last you for 8 weeks (dosing the regular 20ml 3 times a week), meaning it should be 1/8tbs per week... unless you have some traces way different than mine. And trace toxicity in plants has been debated a few times...
And you are giving less macros than recomended on EI... 4tbs of KNO3 + 1tbs of Monopotassium Phosphate + 500ml of water should last for 8 weeks = 1/2tbs KNO3 + 1/8tbs Monopotassium Phosphate a week.

You should also provide some Magnesium to the plants... even on hard water, the ratio between Calcium and Magnesium may make Magnesium unavailable to plants.

Hard water and High PH levels can make unchelated and some chelated Iron sources unavailable to plants. You may need a stronger chelator on the iron.

To know how much CO2 you have in the tank, you should compare your KH with your PH when the CO2 is on, according to the chart:


 

You want you PH to be around 30ppm when CO2 is on.


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## dkraft12 (21 Nov 2016)

Ok, currently don't have a reliable way to test GH or KH but I do have test strips, according to those my GH is on the soft side and KH is off the charts, which makes sense because I have well water. 

As an FYI my trace fertilizer includes 3XKSO4, 3xCaSO4, 1xMgSO4. I don't dose any iron which may be the problem, which is why I asked if I may have iron deficiency. and it looks like I need to do some more research on EI dosing. if my problem is iron, would root tabs with iron in them be the best way to source my plants??

I figured I might need to crank up the co2, I was just hesitant because I run a paintball system so the tanks don't last very long. I feel like my lights aren't very intense so I thought what I had co2 wise was enough. I guess I'll turn it up and see how it goes! 

Thoughts on any of this?


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## AverageWhiteBloke (22 Nov 2016)

Hello Buddy, my thoughts for what they are worth...firstly not sure what the (3X) means, are you adding this to the traces? I wouldn't get too into the water hardness, it's not that important for now as long as the important stuff is covered first. Generally speaking there should be enough Iron in the traces, some people do experiment with it and see if it makes a difference but again if you're adding the correct amount of traces it shouldn't be an issue.
Firstly I would look at your dosing, traces you look like you're dosing a weeks worth in one hit. The problem here is depending on the type you use some of it doesn't stay in the water plant accessible for as long as the macros which is why people spread the dose out over alternate days and don't mix it with the phosphate.
To be within EI range your kno3 is also a bit low. That's not to say you need that much but if you want to rule it out from your enquiries then use the full dosage and you can feel sure that it isn't the issue. With a tank of your volume it may be better to pre-mix some bottles and dose that way as 1/32 spoons is quite difficult to gauge. If you want to stay with dry salts then your dosing should be something along the lines of..

After WC day 1
1/4 TSP KNO3
1/16 TSP PO4
Day 2
1/16 TSP Traces
Day 3
1/4 TSP KNO3
1/16 TSP PO4
Day 4
1/16 TSP Traces
Day 5
1/4 TSP KNO3
1/16 TSP PO4
Day 6
1/16 TSP Traces
Day 7
Rest Day

Those figures are at the top end for a tank your size but like I say it's quite difficult when dealing with teaspoons to get any level of accuracy but at least you know your ferts are covered. As for the co2, the demand for co2 is governed by the amount of light over the tank. More light=more co2. There's a chance that having just a green drop checker at lights on is adequate for your lighting. People usually go lime green bordering on yellow to make sure they are covered. If it's no worry to you to turn it up then once your ferts are in order and the co2 is right the only thing left to look at is the flow of water around the tank. Best practice though is not to let how long your co2 bottle lasts or the price of the co2 to dictate how much you put in. It is what it is, if the plants need it you have to give them it. The only other option is to reduce the lighting and demand for co2.
Maybe try these things one step at a time before you reduce the lighting and see how things look in a months time. A word of warning though, since you have been dosing quite lean on the KNO3 increasing it might give the plants a little growing spurt which results in a further demand on co2.


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## David Shanahan (25 Nov 2016)

Have you moved anything in the tank recently? I find that they can do poorly if you are kicking up the soil and the ammonia levels have increased.


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## HiNtZ (3 Dec 2016)

I also have a 20 gallon, high light, CO2, and dosing EI.

500ml water with:

6tsp MGSO4
4tsp KNO3
1tsp KH2PO4

10ml per 50 litres (so 20ml) on Mondays Wednesdays, Fridays

500ml water with:

1tsp APF chelated trace

same again, 10ml per 50 litres (so 20ml) on Tuesdays, Thursdays, Saturdays

Sunday = no dosing, and 50% water change in the evening before lights out. I also add 1 tsp of MGSO4 after WC because my tap is a bit low on it.


I've never had my repens looking like yours with these mixes, but have found I sometimes need to give a little extra trace from time to time.

When I see holes I automatically think "potassium" - have you got any K2SO4? Then again, the yellowness makes me think "iron".

Can we see the other plants at all? Different species respond to deficiencies at different rates and characteristics.

I would suggest first and foremost upping the CO2 a little to get a more lime green DC just to eliminate it.


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## David Shanahan (4 Dec 2016)

I'm just dosing ADA step 1 and ADA special lights. Not had any melt from mine. As long as the Co2 is ok, then I don't see any immediate issues. Barely any iron in my ADA bottles.


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## sciencefiction (4 Dec 2016)

kadoxu said:


> Hard water and High PH levels can make unchelated and some chelated Iron sources unavailable to plants.



Hard water renders almost all traces ineffective if they are EDTA based, not just iron. But holes in the leaves are normally potassium related. Have a look at the picture below how it affects glosso. Also the website from which I took the picture is quite handy because the owners of the pictures have resolved the issue by dosing the relevant nutrient pointed out.

http://deficiencyfinder.com/


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## sciencefiction (4 Dec 2016)

Also, at what intensity and duration do you have the lights on?


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## sciencefiction (4 Dec 2016)

dkraft12 said:


> I noticed that the few that are still looking very healthy may be shaded by my amazon sword (ones in the back). Could this be an issue of Co2/light balance? too much light and not enough co2 to the ones in direct light?



When one subjects plants to lower light amounts, the plant needs everything in lower amounts, all nutrients, not just CO2 so to conclude CO2 is the issue is like having a problem resolved with 1% accuracy.


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## Manisha (4 Dec 2016)

Hi, 
Just to add yet another opinion..! If you bought your Staurogyne repens as a pot, it may have thrived in the first few weeks using its stored energy & I'd hazard a guess that explains it's sudden decline now. So I think conditions for it might never have been optimum because of this.
The other thing is I'm a low light non co2 user & all the other species I've grown so they are generally less demanding than Staurogyne (although there are a few exceptions like anubias pinto & echinodorus vesuvius).
I didn't notice what filter you're using? It could be even with adequate co2 levels the co2 might not be distributed at the substrate level properly & you may need to rethink your flow?


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