# First dip into live food, am I doing it right?



## DaveWatkin (28 Jul 2021)

Hey all, 

I have been wanting to produce live food for awhile but time/space and wife have always been against me. I decided recently to try this Hatchery and it seems to work well. Doesn't take up too much space, no extra equipment and provides plenty of artemia for two to three days feeding at a time  (depending on survival of artemia).

I'm currently feeding this for two/three days and then peas or cucumber on the off day while I reset hatchery and to make sure the shrimp get enough food (although the amanos do hunt the artemia surprisingly). I'm currently really low stocked, just three guppies in one tank and four black tetras in another so I feed one or two pipettes a time and they send the fish crazy for 10 minutes catching them all. Question is, are these small artemia enough for grown fish? They seem quite small, although each fish eats 50-100 at time probably.

I have a school of 20 chilli rasboras arriving soon and I think these will be great for them but not sure about the bigger guys.

Thanks for any help.


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## Wookii (28 Jul 2021)

My fish love them also (my shrimp grab them too!). I started with that Hobby unit, and it works very well, but I had to step up to the JBL Artemio 1 and brought some good quality eggs as I have around 40 odd fish to feed at once.

I think the general consensus is newly hatched (first 12-24 hours) the brine shrimp have a decent level of nutrition, but after that their nutritional value declines rapidly. The practical problem is that they don't all necessarily hatch at the same time, so on day two you don't know if you've got newly hatched ones, or two day old ones. I just tend to feed two days worth, and scrap the rest.

You could also try Grindal worms too - very easy and maintenance free to culture, and just about small enough for Chilli's too.

It's also worth feeding in between with a decent quality dried food (Fluval Bug bites are a good one), to ensure they get enough protein and other vitamins. Variety is key I think.


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## ScareCrow (28 Jul 2021)

I agree with Wookii grindals are really easy to culture. I also culture banana worms which are even easier. Microworms require the same care but are a bit bigger than banana worms so might be a better choice for your rasboras. My young kribs at just over an inch still take banana worms though.


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## DaveWatkin (28 Jul 2021)

Bugbites is my current go to so I will continue that on days there are no artemia and start to bin after two days. Will also check out the JBL hatchery you suggest.

Worms interest me but the wife won't go for that in her house haha. I have a shed but I'm in NE Scotland so the temperature isn't great.


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## Wookii (28 Jul 2021)

DaveWatkin said:


> Bugbites is my current go to so I will continue that on days there are no artemia and start to bin after two days. Will also check out the JBL hatchery you suggest.
> 
> Worms interest me but the wife won't go for that in her house haha. I have a shed but I'm in NE Scotland so the temperature isn't great.



I don't think the JBL hatchery will be any good for you Dave, it'll produce too many at once unless you're going to freeze them off. You could improve your hatch rates, and shrimp quality by getting some better quality cysts (assuming you are using the standard Hobby ones).

I appreciate the worms might be a hard sell to the other half, but they are very self contained. I have mine in a layer of damp coconut coir in a sealed plastic tub - there are some airholes, but they are stuffed with filter floss so the worms have no way of escaping - not that they ever attempt to, as they remain in the soil, and only surface to eat the food I add (cat food pellets). Even after 18 month of being kept in the same box, there is no odour what so ever either.


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## DaveWatkin (28 Jul 2021)

That looks like a pretty good setup, might give it a try then. Do they need any special light/heat conditions or would they be happy enough in the cupboard under a tank?

I'm using the standard egg/salt mix hobby sell just now but swapping to separate eggs and salt so I can mix the water prior to adding eggs and hopefully get better results with the eggs I was recommended.

Been watching some reviews on the JBL, looks good but as you say, too much for me right now. Once my stocks are back up I may consider the change if the Hobby one isn't producing enough for everyone.


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## Wookii (28 Jul 2021)

DaveWatkin said:


> That looks like a pretty good setup, might give it a try then. Do they need any special light/heat conditions or would they be happy enough in the cupboard under a tank?



I keep mine out on a shelf, but I don't believe they especially need light, so in your tank cabinet should be fine, and room temp should be fine also.


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## mort (28 Jul 2021)

If you use the hobby hatcher and are getting a slow hatch rate, or you take a few days to feed them to the fish, you could try enriching the bbs. The bbs can't feed in the first 12 hours after hatching but after this once they reach there second instar stage, they are able to take in enrichment. I used to have to do this with my baby seahorse and pipefish. It's a simple process to add enrichment, I used phytoplankton mostly but sometimes selcon. You could do similar with some green water from a garden bucket. 

If you dont have pretty open top tanks then you can put the hatcher on top and it really speeds up the hatch rate.

You can also make brine hatchers out of a margarine tub very easily that work just as well as the hobby hatcher.


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## DaveWatkin (25 Aug 2021)

mort said:


> If you use the hobby hatcher and are getting a slow hatch rate, or you take a few days to feed them to the fish, you could try enriching the bbs.


I have some Spirulina powder, think that would work as food for them? How long can they survive in the hatchery? I would be interested in growing some a little larger for my bigger fish.


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## DaveWatkin (25 Aug 2021)

Wookii said:


> I appreciate the worms might be a hard sell to the other half, but they are very self contained. I have mine in a layer of damp coconut coir in a sealed plastic tub - there are some airholes, but they are stuffed with filter floss so the worms have no way of escaping - not that they ever attempt to, as they remain in the soil, and only surface to eat the food I add (cat food pellets). Even after 18 month of being kept in the same box, there is no odour what so ever either.


Going to give this a try I think. How often do you feed the culture? I work away semi regularly so switch to dry food for those periods anyway but wondering if the culture would crash quickly or survive for a week or two?


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## Wookii (25 Aug 2021)

DaveWatkin said:


> Going to give this a try I think. How often do you feed the culture? I work away semi regularly so switch to dry food for those periods anyway but wondering if the culture would crash quickly or survive for a week or two?



I’m not sure how long they can go without food Dave. I’m currently away on a two week holiday, so I this will be a good test. I fed the cultures 6 cat biscuits each the day before we left, so I’m hoping the worms will be fine until in get home.


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## DaveWatkin (25 Aug 2021)

How much/often do you normally feed?


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## Wookii (25 Aug 2021)

I generally feed around 3-4 cat biscuits (the small pea sized cat food ones) once or twice a week.


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## mort (26 Aug 2021)

DaveWatkin said:


> I have some Spirulina powder, think that would work as food for them? How long can they survive in the hatchery? I would be interested in growing some a little larger for my bigger fish.



Should do. I tended to just use green water (you can simply leave a container of water out in the sun) or more commonly a product such as lipovit.

The problem with the hatchers is that they don't have a very large water volume and the water fouls quickly if you add a decent number of eggs. You could move the newly hatched brine to a new tub of water but I've had very little success with growing on large volumes of bbs to adult, at least not enough to warrant not just buying a frozen block of brine.


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## sparkyweasel (27 Aug 2021)

To raise adult Brine Shrimps needs a lot of aeration. The classic way is to make an inverted pyramid from four glass triangles siliconed together, and put the output from an air pump at the bottom. Opinion is divided on whether an airstone is better, or larger bubbles straight from the airline.


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## DaveWatkin (27 Aug 2021)

Got my tubs, got my coir, now just need the starter culture  Going away for a couple weeks next week so figured I'd wait till I'm back before buying.


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## Midwife (1 Sep 2021)

Get micrworms off eBay. Buy the cheapest. Use instant plain mash potatoes. Cheapest is about 27p and yeast. Plenty of good videos on Youtube. Culture can easily last 6 weeks but will smell a bit. Add more yeast after a few weeks. Couple of small pinches. Have two cultures on the go at once.
No point spending money on more hatcheries. I have the one you have and I'm very p!eased with it. I also use a cheap £5 reptile. heat mat under it.  My local aquatic store messages me every Friday when my live food order  arrives. I also have frozen shop bought  food.
Food I prepare and freeze down are boiled courgettes. At least 3 months worth everytime.Thats less than a pound. I also freeze down repashy. Fish and shrimps and bottom dwellers go nuts for it but not that cheap.


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## dw1305 (1 Sep 2021)

Hi all,


Midwife said:


> Get micrworms off eBay.


I'm a <"micro worm fan as well">. During the summer months <"my fish get 95% live food">.


Midwife said:


> Culture can easily last 6 weeks but will smell a bit.


If you use <"Rolled Oats">, rather than instant potato, the cultures don't smell bad, just slightly yeasty. The also last longer without having to re-culture.

@Midwife if you want any of the other live food cultures that I have you are more than welcome (for p&p). I think most of the <"cultures of_ Lumbriculus_ and _Crangonyx">_ in the UK probably originated <"via this forum">.

cheers Darrel


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## Midwife (1 Sep 2021)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm a <"micro worm fan as well">. During the summer months <"my fish get 95% live food">.
> 
> ...


I use to use rolled oats for a long time but I found occasionally it can go moldy. It could be my error though in making it. I swapped to mash and have had no problems with it so far. I use cold water. No need to boil water I have found,


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## Wookii (2 Sep 2021)

DaveWatkin said:


> Going to give this a try I think. How often do you feed the culture? I work away semi regularly so switch to dry food for those periods anyway but wondering if the culture would crash quickly or survive for a week or two?



Just to update,  I came back from my two weeks away and fed another four cat biscuits, and there were loads of worms feeding on them a day later, so it seems being left unfed for two weeks has little to no impact on them.


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## bushaaayyy (21 Sep 2021)

Wookii said:


> I don't think the JBL hatchery will be any good for you Dave, it'll produce too many at once unless you're going to freeze them off. You could improve your hatch rates, and shrimp quality by getting some better quality cysts (assuming you are using the standard Hobby ones).
> 
> I appreciate the worms might be a hard sell to the other half, but they are very self contained. I have mine in a layer of damp coconut coir in a sealed plastic tub - there are some airholes, but they are stuffed with filter floss so the worms have no way of escaping - not that they ever attempt to, as they remain in the soil, and only surface to eat the food I add (cat food pellets). Even after 18 month of being kept in the same box, there is no odour what so ever either.
> 
> View attachment 172378


Hi wookii, 

Do you need to replace the coconut coir often? Just wondering whether it’s worth ordering 3.5kg of the stuff as it’s only a couple of quid more than 650grams on eBay.


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## Wookii (21 Sep 2021)

bushaaayyy said:


> Hi wookii,
> 
> Do you need to replace the coconut coir often? Just wondering whether it’s worth ordering 3.5kg of the stuff as it’s only a couple of quid more than 650grams on eBay.



I’ve not replaced mine since I set it up, it doesn’t seem to have changed or broken down at all, and it gives off zero odour. I just stir it around every few months to get more air into it - though I’m not sure I even need to be doing that.


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## DaveWatkin (28 Sep 2021)

Wookii said:


> I’ve not replaced mine since I set it up, it doesn’t seem to have changed or broken down at all, and it gives off zero odour. I just stir it around every few months to get more air into it - though I’m not sure I even need to be doing that.


Got two cultures set up last week and both have loads of worms scoffing about 2 cat biscuits a day per culture.

My next question now is how often do you raid the culture for feeding to keep it big enough for growth while still providing food? I believe the eggs take a couple of weeks to hatch and they then take a month before they are big enough to reproduce? 

Looking to get my feeding cycle worked out so I know what to feed on what days. Was thinking in terms of days a cycle of artemia, artemia, worms, Bug Bites, repeat. Or can I use the worms more often to reduce the maintenance of raising artemia cultures multiple times a week?

Thanks for all the help so far.

Dave


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## Wookii (28 Sep 2021)

DaveWatkin said:


> Got two cultures set up last week and both have loads of worms scoffing about 2 cat biscuits a day per culture.
> 
> My next question now is how often do you raid the culture for feeding to keep it big enough for growth while still providing food? I believe the eggs take a couple of weeks to hatch and they then take a month before they are big enough to reproduce?
> 
> ...



How many fish are you feeding?

I have two cultures running, and if I were to feed 2 cat biscuits per day I'd imagine there'd be enough worms to feed my 50 fish perhaps every other day continuously (I've never tried so I can't be sure). As it is I feed the culture once of twice a week with 4-5 biscuits, and harvest maybe twice a week.

You'd have to try it and see - if you find the numbers of worms dwindling, simply increase the amount of food, or start an additional culture.


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## ScareCrow (28 Sep 2021)

I normally harvest every day for feeding to my young kribs but maybe twice a week for the adults. I normally feed the culture in the evening and then harvest the next morning. Back when it was warmer, I was harvesting 2-3 times a day with no apparent reduction in numbers.
Just read back through the thread and noticed you're in Scotland. You might be able to culture white worms too. Very similar to grindals but quite a bit bigger. I had a culture years ago that was fine in the winter but in the summer I couldn't keep the temp low enough and the fridge was too cold so they were too much of a goldilocks culture for me and I moved over to grindals.


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## DaveWatkin (28 Sep 2021)

Cheers guys.

I am feeding a small community tank of Harlequin Rasboras (12), Guppies (3) and Black Neon Tetras (3) with Amanos (10ish) and another tank with Chilli Rasboras (15) and Amanos (10ish). 

Will see how they get on, there seems to be lots just now so will feed in a few days when my current Artemia culture is finished and see if they like them 

What's your method for separating them from the dirt? Got some mesh on top just now, do you place some food above it to entice them on or just gather what are on it from below naturally?


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## Wookii (29 Sep 2021)

DaveWatkin said:


> Cheers guys.
> 
> I am feeding a small community tank of Harlequin Rasboras (12), Guppies (3) and Black Neon Tetras (3) with Amanos (10ish) and another tank with Chilli Rasboras (15) and Amanos (10ish).
> 
> ...



I place the mesh on top of the food, and press it down slightly. When the worms swarm over the food, you can see them filling the gaps in the mesh. I then just lift the mesh out, hover it over a shot glass, and use a pipette with some water in and squirt through the mesh, washing the worms off the mesh into the glass. You should then end up with a shot glass with some water in and the worms in the bottom, and very little, if any soil/coir.

I then just stir the glass up with the pipette as the worms can clump together very quickly, and immediately suck some up and squirt into the tank before they clump up again in the pipette.

They do tend to sink fairly quickly, and if you have a coarse substrate (anything other than sand really), and no bottom feeders, the worms will burrow into the gaps, so feed a drip at a time and give the fish chance to eat them all - particularly for your Chilli tank, as they'll just want to eat in the top half of the tank.


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## tam (2 Oct 2021)

How do the grindal compare to microworms in size? I've done microworms before for fry, I'm bad at the refreshing culture in time though. The grindal sound easier if they last that long just eating cat biscuits! Threadfin rainbows are probably my smallest mouth fish.


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