# Snails & Ferts



## jameson_uk (15 Jan 2017)

I recently got a zebra and a horned nerite online.  The zebra never moved and was dead a few days later.  The horned one didn't move for a day but has been fine since.

I then got another zebra from LFS and this seemed fine for several days but I found him upside down on the substrate.  After turning him over he hasn't moved in a few days now.  Checked this morning and trapdoor is there and closed.

I put the first zebra down to the stress of shipping but the second was active at LFS who have very similar water to mine and it was quite happy for a couple of days after adding it to the tank.

This morning was water change day and the horned nerite made a pretty sharp dash to the water line.

I had dosed with Tropica Specialised Ferts (which I believe contains urea) and Excel (standard dose after large water change).

Just wondering if the snails don't like the ferts, the Excel or perhaps large water changes?


----------



## MadMike (15 Jan 2017)

I believe it also contains copper, could be that. I was steered away by this as I was worried about my snails.

I also run the tap for a little while before filling up my 25l water change jug in case any copper has leached into the water from the pipes. Try a water change without ferts and see what they do.

Sent from my D5503 using Tapatalk


----------



## Fiske (15 Jan 2017)

I use both Tropica Specialised and Premium in a tank with loads of shrimp and snails (physa and ramshorn). Not having any issues. I stick to the recommended dosing, more or less.
Whatever copper content is in Tropica ferts is miniscule, and shouldn't pose an issue here.


MadMike said:


> Try a water change without ferts and see what they do.



I agree.


----------



## ian_m (16 Jan 2017)

MadMike said:


> any copper has leached into the water from the pipes.


I doubt it. If any copper were dissolving in the water, we would all soon be knee deep in water as our copper pipes dissolved away !!!. The green stains we see often under old taps is from the taps rather than the pipes. New taps for the last 30-40 years (except cheapies from China !!!) are resistant to this, dezincifaction resistant brass is what now must be used for drinking water taps.

Excel, in my experience will kill snails, if one doses much more than recommended (say x5 to reduce/kill algae).


----------



## kadoxu (16 Jan 2017)

ian_m said:


> Excel, in my experience will kill snails, if one doses much more than recommended (say x5 to reduce/kill algae).


I agree... even just the regular dose can affect some shrimps and snails, you can see changes on their behavior right away.


----------



## louis_last (16 Jan 2017)

I don't know if I can offer much help here but I use high doses of tropica specialised daily in a tank with red ramshorn snails and they never seem to be affected by it. I would suspect the excel, it can kill some delicate plants so at the very least I would imagine big doses would irritate a snail.


----------



## jameson_uk (16 Jan 2017)

I did originally think copper but I have read many accounts of people dosing Flourish and Excel with shrimp that I did't think it might be that.   The amanos I have in the tank have always seemed fine with everything and it is only the nerites which I haven't had much luck with.  The horned only spent about an hour or two at the surface and by the time I returned home he was right near the substrate cleaning the glass.

I am wondering whether it is actually the urea / ammonium in the Tropica ferts.   I didn't actually think about checking but the Seneye I got for Christmas does show a spike in NH4 when I dosed but also a small spike in NH3 (up to about 0.07 ppm for a few hours).  My understanding is that levels over 0.05ppm can be harmful (http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/your-guide-to-ammonia-toxicity-159994.html).  This is based on the recommended dose.

Either way I guess this is far from ideal so I think this is the push I need to move to dry salts.


----------



## john dory (16 Jan 2017)

kadoxu said:


> I agree... even just the regular dose can affect some shrimps and snails, you can see changes on their behavior right away.


This is also true of sae.


----------



## jameson_uk (20 Jan 2017)

Now I am wondering about nitrates?  Out the tap I just checked it as 10-20 and the water company have my area down as 14-31 with a mean of 25.

This is my level out the tap and I have been adding the Tropica ferts which include NO4.

The tank has always been 20-40 when I measure it so I am guessing I have been a bit stupid dosing extra nitrogen ? (I guess plants would consume the ferts before the nitrates)???

Is this level too high for nerites?


----------



## three-fingers (20 Jan 2017)

Nah, your nitrate levels and ferts are fine. I personally don't like using Excel with invertebrates, I've seen shrimp react badly to normal doses in the past and adding a biocide to kill algae doesn't fit with my personal fish keeping ethos. Having said this, I can say with certainty that it never killed your snails.

I had the same couple nertites for a couple of years and was using EI while overdosing micros the whole time, they thrived and grew (new shell growth had a different pattern).  I even experimented with alternative nitrogen sources over the time I had them, so I'm sure the tiny amount of NO4 in the Tropica ferts is no issue.

From experience getting these in at the LFS when I worked there, you are most likely just unlucky and got unhealthy ones. When I go to Pets@Home or some LFS, I often see only about 25% of the snails moving around (usually around the water line trying to escape), the rest

Many nerites that are imported are absolutely starving by the time they arrive in shops (some are DOA and stink), and then they are usually just plunked straight into the shop tanks that often contain traces of fish medications and are relatively oxygen-deprived. If the tank they are in (or row of tanks, for shared filter systems) gets whitespot or similar, the snails are then subjected to a  full dose of chemical treatment, sometimes even for more than one course.

So yeah, nerites are sensitive snails that require perfect water, but I'm sure your tank water is fine.

Is there much food for them in your tank? Without a lot of algae to graze constantly...it doesn't take long for them to starve IME, especially just after being imported.  They need a lot of algae, I would stop the Excel and let algae grow on the sides of the tank.

If you want an algae-free planted tank, don't keep nerites .


----------



## jameson_uk (20 Jan 2017)

Plenty of food for them...

Not sure photos show it too well but it is the whole reason I am trying a couple of nerites!


----------



## flchamp89 (20 Jan 2017)

Your the best algae prevention. No snails, ottos, excel, or flag fish will be better than you Jameson. Need find balance. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


----------



## three-fingers (20 Jan 2017)

They will only really eat it from the glass and smooth surfaces like those rocks. The stuff on the bottom of glass looks good for them, though I can't see if there's a lot of it, are the back/sides covered in this too? Do you see the snail that's active in your tank eating? You should be able to see it's teeth rasping away at the algae through the glass. If you can literally see it ingesting algae, that would be a good sign it isn't starving. If it passes over the algae without eating it, the algae may be unsuitable (they don't eat BBA, staghorn and some others).

If you just dosed Excel before the snail dashed to the water line, the Excel could have irritated the snail, it wont have killed the other snails, but may have been a slight contributing factor if they have already been starved/weakened by other toxins en route to your tank.  In my mind it's strange to try and keep something that feeds exclusively on algae while regularly adding a toxic algaecide to the tank. If you want healthy growing nitrites, you need lots of algae, so have no reason to add Excel. I'm not sure if you bought the nerites to get rid of the algae, or just want to keep nerites, but if you don't like algae you shouldn't keep nerites IMO. I just clean the front glass and leave the sides for algae.

If there is food in the tank they can actually eat, you have just probably been unlucky and got unhealthy ones, which is very common.


----------



## jameson_uk (20 Jan 2017)

flchamp89 said:


> Your the best algae prevention. No snails, ottos, excel, or flag fish will be better than you Jameson. Need find balance.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


Indeed.  I am sure the issue is the lights.  The Juwel tank comes with 2x45W T5s that you can't dim or turn off one of the tubes.  The tubes are non standard size so I can't get lower power tubes.  The lighting unit forms part of the hood so other units aren't easy to fix.

Until I can afford to do something about the lights (or decide to go the whole hog and inject CO2) I am slightly stuck.


----------



## flchamp89 (20 Jan 2017)

No timer? 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


----------



## three-fingers (20 Jan 2017)

Simply cover one of the tubes or part of a tube? I know people used to use reflectors turned upside down. Some tinfoil and tape should do the trick too.

Also...floating plants.

Are we actually trying to reduce algae growth here though? If so, maybe rehome that nerite .


----------



## jameson_uk (20 Jan 2017)

three-fingers said:


> Simply cover one of the tubes or part of a tube? I know people used to use reflectors turned upside down. Some tinfoil and tape should do the trick too.
> 
> Also...floating plants.
> 
> Are we actually trying to reduce algae growth here though? If so, maybe rehome that nerite .



I don't want a sterile tank.  I leave the sides and back and I am quite happy with some algae but want a little help with cleaning the front glass.  The horned nerite is fine and constantly grazing (on one side of the tank).  I like the look of the nerites rather than looking at them as a cure.

I have amzon frogbit over part of the tank but the flow from the filter keeps it down one end of the tank.  It doesn't seem to fare too well in my tank and the first lot died off.

I did try some foil as an experiment but I wasn't happy with the increase in temperature (it is sealed in a plastic hood).  Might try it again or look into reflectors.


flchamp89 said:


> No timer?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


Yep, they're on for 8 hours.  I am not looking to get rid of the algae.


----------

