# Oedogonium and diatoms?



## Nautilus143 (31 Jul 2021)

Hi all,

I am currently struggling with what I believe is Oedogonium algae and diatoms. Please see below:





The diatoms are tricky to capture with my phone camera but you can see some badly affected leaves on the left of the photo.

My dragon stone has also turned pale green. I assume this is also algae but I haven't been able to get any of it off with a toothbrush.




And yes, I'm aware that my S. repens looks absolutely pitiful  my Amano shrimp just started eating it one day and never stopped. They eat all my plants tbh and I'm not quite sure what to do about it, but I think it's a story for a separate thread!

Tank info
Size: 75L
Filter: Oase Bioplus Thermo 100
Lights: Oase Highline Daylight LED 
Photoperiod: 6h, only one of the two bulbs on at a time as I have no other means of controlling intensity
Ferts: Tropica premium nutrition - used to add it once every other day, reduced to twice a week about a month ago. However, I've been on holiday for a week so no ferts in the last 7 days
Stocking: 3 honey gourami, 6 Endlers, 6 Amanos (I think, I never see all 6 out)
WC: once weekly without fail. I usually do 25% to 33% of the volume of water in the tank

Can anyone confirm the algae types and let me know if there is anything I can do to potentially improve the situation? I am considering replacing my S. repens and my water sprite as both have been absolutely destroyed by my shrimp, but I want to leave the other plants alone really.


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## Oldguy (31 Jul 2021)

Nautilus143 said:


> algae


Too much light, not enough CO2.  50% weekly water change. Use EI ferts, mix your own and you will know what you are adding (much cheaper than over the counter stuff.) Reduce light intensity by raising your lights (if possible). Add floating plants as these will reduce light intensity on your submerged plants & decor.

See threads on Estimated Index (EI) and on the 'duckweed index'

Hang on with your tank. Bottom line is to remove  plants, clean rocks etc and start again with lots and lots of cheap fast growing submerged plants and as your tank start's to settle down slowly remove the cheap and cheerful with plants that you like.

You will get there. Good luck.


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## ceg4048 (1 Aug 2021)

I agree with Oldguy. When you see algae growing over so much of the hardscape then it is a sure sign that there is too much light. 
If this is a CO2 injected tank then flow and distribution are also suspect but I cannot see the filter outlet orientation and it is unclear whether this is a CO2 tank or a low tech tank as it was not stated in the original post.

Cheers,


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## Nautilus143 (1 Aug 2021)

Oldguy said:


> Too much light, not enough CO2.  50% weekly water change. Use EI ferts, mix your own and you will know what you are adding (much cheaper than over the counter stuff.) Reduce light intensity by raising your lights (if possible). Add floating plants as these will reduce light intensity on your submerged plants & decor.
> 
> See threads on Estimated Index (EI) and on the 'duckweed index'
> 
> ...





ceg4048 said:


> I agree with Oldguy. When you see algae growing over so much of the hardscape then it is a sure sign that there is too much light.
> If this is a CO2 injected tank then flow and distribution are also suspect but I cannot see the filter outlet orientation and it is unclear whether this is a CO2 tank or a low tech tank as it was not stated in the original post.
> 
> Cheers,



Thank you both very much. I should have mentioned that this is a non-CO2 tank but I think you guessed it anyway 

Unfortunately my lights are already in the highest position possible in the tank - it's lidded and has a holder for the bulbs. I'm surprised that only having one bulb on at a time (of the two bulbs) is too much light, but I will definitely try adding floating plants. And will look into EI too!

When it comes to removing plants, I am very happy to take out the water sprite and S. repens but would really like to leave the others, including the Bacopa caroliniana shown in the photo, alone. The lower leaves of the Bacopa are unaffected - could a good trim help it recover? I also have Monte Carlo in the tank which is looking sorry for itself, but it has taken me 5 months to achieve good coverage with it so I'm reluctant to take it out


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## MrClockOff (1 Aug 2021)

Nautilus143 said:


> Unfortunately my lights are already in the highest position possible in the tank - it's lidded and has a holder for the bulbs. I'm surprised that only having one bulb on at a time (of the two bulbs) is too much light, but I will definitely try adding floating plants.


In case if there is no way to raise the lights or dim them and they are LED then one of those could be very helpful Fish Tank Aquarium Light LED Dimmer Aquarium Light Modulator Lighting Controller Intelligent Timing Dimming System Amazon product or NICREW Single Channel LED Ramp Timer PRO for Aquarium Light, LED Digital Dimmer ClassicLED with Standard 2.5mm/2.1mm Power Connectors Amazon product

Personally using NICREW and very happy with results


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## Nautilus143 (3 Aug 2021)

MrClockOff said:


> In case if there is no way to raise the lights or dim them and they are LED then one of those could be very helpful Fish Tank Aquarium Light LED Dimmer Aquarium Light Modulator Lighting Controller Intelligent Timing Dimming System Amazon product or NICREW Single Channel LED Ramp Timer PRO for Aquarium Light, LED Digital Dimmer ClassicLED with Standard 2.5mm/2.1mm Power Connectors Amazon product
> 
> Personally using NICREW and very happy with results



Thank you so much for sharing this. Unfortunately my lights don't seem to be compatible with it - they are LEDs but have a hard-wired mains plug, there doesn't seem to be any way of me attaching a dimmer


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## MrClockOff (3 Aug 2021)

Nautilus143 said:


> Thank you so much for sharing this. Unfortunately my lights don't seem to be compatible with it - they are LEDs but have a hard-wired mains plug, there doesn't seem to be any way of me attaching a dimmer


I see they don’t have safe voltage.. which is quite uncommon. Well last resort is to use electrical tape and mask few LEDs along the lights. I’m not big fan of masking as it may leave sticking patches on the lights once removed. But it worked for me once before I’ve got the dimmer.


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## Wookii (3 Aug 2021)

I’d personally just add a load of floating plants - I’d wager that’d cure most of your problems when they’ve covered the surface - they’ll cut the light significantly and also significantly increase plant mass.

Make sure your filter outlet is breaking the water surface as much as possible for the best possible gas exchange.

Finally switch to either EI salts as suggested, or something like APT Complete or TNC Complete if you want it premixed, or if you really want to stick with Tropica, you at least need to use Specialised as Premium is missing N and P.

I suspect it is the lack of nutrients and too much light that are causing the leaves to degrade which the Amanos are then eating as they decay, rather than the Amanos eating healthy leaves.


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## ceg4048 (4 Aug 2021)

Nautilus143 said:


> Thank you both very much. I should have mentioned that this is a non-CO2 tank but I think you guessed it anyway


Hi,
    Yes it was my suspicion.  If you do not have the ability to dim the lights and cannot raise them then as wookii mentions, you can use floating plants to reduce light penetration, or any device can be use to obfuscate the light, such as dark perspex or even cheesecloth placed between the light and the water.

Cheers,


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## MichaelJ (4 Aug 2021)

Even a few strips of water-proof black electrical tape (which I am using) or a few layers of semi-transparent scotch tape over the LEDs can work magic.
Cheers,
Michael


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## Nautilus143 (8 Sep 2021)

Hi all, haven't posted in this thread in a while but I do have an update. Unfortunately, it's not great. The oedogonium (?) seems to be gone but the brown algae is worse than ever. I recently replaced half my plants and the new plants are just getting choked by it. I added frogbit, which is getting pretty big now, and even their roots are covered in brown algae now. I don't think it's diatoms like I had when I first started my tank - I can't rub it off the leaves and my shrimp/fish don't eat it. Its also more orangey than brown really. My filter is also covered in it - I can scrub it thoroughly and it'll come back within days. Any advice? I do still need to switch my fertiliser strategy - I will probably switch to Tropica Specialised - but I'm not sure this will really resolve the current algae takeover. Should also mention that I've re-started adding EasyCarbo, which I had previously stopped as it seemed to stress my shrimp, but that is making no difference. Really getting frustrated with the state of my tank. Will post some photos later.


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## Wookii (8 Sep 2021)

Do you have a current FTS?

You say you "still need to switch fertilizer strategy" - what is the current strategy?

What is your water change schedule, and how much surface agitation do you have?


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## Nautilus143 (8 Sep 2021)

Wookii said:


> Do you have a current FTS?
> 
> You say you "still need to switch fertilizer strategy" - what is the current strategy?
> 
> What is your water change schedule, and how much surface agitation do you have?


Here is an FTS:



Annoyingly it doesn't look anywhere near as bad in the photos as it is in real life! I took a close up of a plant to show the weird way in which this algae seems to deposit:



It seems to form distinct patches. 

I currently put one pump of Tropica Premium Nutrition into the tank on Mon, Weds, Fri, and Sun. And I am also adding 1mL of EasyCarbo a day. 

Surface agitation comes from my internal filter. I have it set so that the water comes out of the little holes at the top - I'm sure this has a technical name but I dont know it! 

Lights are still only on for 6h, one bulb at a time. 

I am just now wondering if changing lots of my plants contributed to the algae growth in some way. There was a LOT of muck that came up from the substrate when I removed the old ones. I did a massive (>75%) water change at the time and have done 50% weekly water changes since. Have had no loss of fish or shrimp but maybe there was a lot of ammonia knocking about? I've also cleaned the filter since changing the plants but maybe it is still dirty, given that the algae has really taken a hold on it...


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## MichaelJ (8 Sep 2021)

@Nautilus143 To me this tank still look too bright for a non-injected tank (hard to judge from a photo obviously). If you dim it way down it will solve your algae problem. I run the lights in my two heavily planted non-injected tanks 12 hours a day  but at very low intensity - and have zero algae to speak of.  Also Tropica Premium will only give you Trace (Micros) minerals (and very small amounts if your doing 8ml/week (one pump 4 times/wk) and your not getting any Macros (NPK) with Premium. You need Macros and plenty of it! If you want to stick to Tropica, I would do Specialized instead, but it becomes really expensive in high doses. Ideally you should use a dedicated NPK fertilizer and dedicated Trace fertilizer which gives you more control - or find a complete/all-round fertilizer that gives you more bang for the bucks.

Cheers,
Michael


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## Nautilus143 (8 Sep 2021)

MichaelJ said:


> @Nautilus143 This tank still look too bright for a non-injected tank. If you dim it way down it will solve your algae problem. I run the lights in my two heavily planted non-injected tanks 12 hours a day  but at very low intensity - and have zero algae to speak of.  Also Tropica Premium will only give you Trace (Micros) minerals and no Macros (NPK). You need Macros and plenty of it. If you want to stick to Tropica, I would do Specialized instead and double the dose. Ideally you should use a dedicated NPK fertilizer and dedicated Trace fertilizer which gives you more control.
> 
> Cheers,
> Michael



Thanks so much Michael. I should have mentioned in the post that I put both bulbs on for the pic, doh! Normally it is only about half as bright as that. To remedy the light problem, I'm gradually letting more and more of the frogbit out of the ring so that it can start covering the whole surface. I decided to keep most of it in the ring at the beginning so that I can block out light directly above the most badly affected plant, but it isn't really helping 😅

Will look at changing my fertiliser ASAP.


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## MichaelJ (8 Sep 2021)

Nautilus143 said:


> Thanks so much Michael. I should have mentioned in the post that I put both bulbs on for the pic, doh! Normally it is only about half as bright as that.


@Nautilus143  Post a picture with the light as it is normally - with one bulb. Same angle and same lights in the room. I think it might still be too strong.


Nautilus143 said:


> Will look at changing my fertiliser ASAP.


Yes, Your plants are struggling which makes them algae magnets.

How old is the tank btw?

Cheers,
Michael


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## plantnoobdude (8 Sep 2021)

yes agree with michael. insufficient nutrients causing unhealthy deficient growth which attracts algae. look into EI dosing. aquariumplantfood.co.uk is a good website i've purchased from. they have an EI kit with everything you need. it is quite straightforward in that sense. and ofcourse changing dosing will not solve anything. keeping excess detritus in substrate low, manual removal of algae, regular fillter maintenance are all things you should be thinking about. cheers,


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## Nautilus143 (10 Sep 2021)

MichaelJ said:


> @Nautilus143  Post a picture with the light as it is normally - with one bulb. Same angle and same lights in the room. I think it might still be too strong.
> 
> Yes, Your plants are struggling which makes them algae magnets.
> 
> ...


Apologies for the delayed reply. Here is a pic with only rear bulb on:



The tank is 7 months old.


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## Nautilus143 (10 Sep 2021)

plantnoobdude said:


> yes agree with michael. insufficient nutrients causing unhealthy deficient growth which attracts algae. look into EI dosing. aquariumplantfood.co.uk is a good website i've purchased from. they have an EI kit with everything you need. it is quite straightforward in that sense. and ofcourse changing dosing will not solve anything. keeping excess detritus in substrate low, manual removal of algae, regular fillter maintenance are all things you should be thinking about. cheers,


I'll definitely look into that - a kit would suit me really well. It's the thought of having to spend ages figuring out what I need and purchase it all separately that puts me off!

Regarding filter maintenance, I was wondering if I could clean my filter in dechlorinated tap water. I know that the usual recommendation is tank water, but I don't know if it really makes sense to rinse my sponges in the water that I know is full of algae.


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## Sergey (10 Sep 2021)

Frankly, I disagree that you need EI in your tank, since it's non-CO2. What's the substrate? Looks like some kind of aqua soil to me. 
What I'd do is the following (assuming you keep lights reduced): 
1.  More plants!!! You need more fast-growing easy plants. Personally, I like to use hornwort (Ceratophyllum demersum) as a startup plant. Just let it float in the water and grow wild. 
2. More frogbit! Let it cover half of the surface or even more.
3. Stick to Tropica specialized with their recommended dosing routine.
4. Water changes 50% twice a week. 
5. Amanos, snails, maybe otocinclus. 

I'd keep in on this regimen for 2-3 weeks and see how it goes on.


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## MichaelJ (10 Sep 2021)

Nautilus143 said:


> Apologies for the delayed reply. Here is a pic with only rear bulb on:


@Nautilus143   Lights still looks pretty strong to me... again, it's kind of hard to judge from a photo. I would dial it down to err on the safe side (put some black electrical tape over say 1/3rd of the LEDs).

Now, with respect to fertilizer, I do agree with @Sergey  that you probably do not need that level (EI) of fertilizer for your tank. That said, there is no harm done finding a middle ground here. Fertilizer do not cause algae. I have been  pummeling my two low-tech tanks with fertilizer (NPK in particular) for a long time now ... no drawbacks what so ever. Could I get the same results with half the fertilizer ? ... probably. 1/4th  ? perhaps... The thing is, I do not know (the experts wouldn't know either unless they would really get in on the excruciating details of the individual plant species, plant mass etc.)... and that's kind of the beauty of the Estimative Index  I'd say - You just want to make sure you got enough of everything and combine that with proper maintenance, The worst thing that can happen is that it will burn a hole in your wallet - especially if you buy the fertilizers bottles that are almost 95% water. And right now your doing nothing except for traces with Tropica Premium - plus whatever the fish, food and plant waste provides in terms of NPK... So, what I would do, as both @Sergey and myself, have recommended is to do Tropica Specialized for starters - you can always change it up as things gets better (you probably want to because that stuff is expensive in the long haul).  I do, with all due respect, disagree with @Sergey about the amount - the recommended dosing of Tropica is not nearly enough IMO, so double that - that's what I used to do not too long ago when I was doing Specialized + Seachem NPK, before switching over to DIY fertilizers.

I also think you should add more plants,  and a cleanup crew - never a bad thing to have a around if your existing livestock is compatible (which it is...).  I am huge fan of frogbit myself, both my densely planted tanks have the surface covered around 60-70% with frogbit - they are amazing! Since they draw co2 from the air you can use them to "tell" if you have enough fertilizer in your tank - mine are growing rampant and I basically have to weed out every two weeks.... (it hurts to throw them away... I wish I knew someone nearby I could give them to) but what I have recently realized is that you dont have to worry about too much coverage in terms of light penetration - as long as you do not obstruct flow and circulation of course, which is the life blood of the planted tank!  it's a fun balancing act really. All my regular plants are thriving just as good as ever - it's just perhaps somewhat slower growth - which sort of makes pruning of the regular plants easier.

As for water changes... During the time you are combatting the algae problem you should definitely up you WC frequency - 50% twice a week is a good recommendation. With that you get rid of algae spores and that extra waste that under normal circumstances wouldn't be a problem.  When you get things under control you can dial back the WC to say 40-50% weekly. ... but keep that light intensity low.

Cheers,
Michael


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## Nautilus143 (11 Sep 2021)

Sergey said:


> Frankly, I disagree that you need EI in your tank, since it's non-CO2. What's the substrate? Looks like some kind of aqua soil to me.
> What I'd do is the following (assuming you keep lights reduced):
> 1.  More plants!!! You need more fast-growing easy plants. Personally, I like to use hornwort (Ceratophyllum demersum) as a startup plant. Just let it float in the water and grow wild.
> 2. More frogbit! Let it cover half of the surface or even more.
> ...





MichaelJ said:


> @Nautilus143   Lights still looks pretty strong to me... again, it's kind of hard to judge from a photo. I would dial it down to err on the safe side (put some black electrical tape over say 1/3rd of the LEDs).
> 
> Now, with respect to fertilizer, I do agree with @Sergey  that you probably do not need that level (EI) of fertilizer for your tank. That said, there is no harm done finding a middle ground here. Fertilizer do not cause algae. I have been  pummeling my two low-tech tanks with fertilizer (NPK in particular) for a long time now ... no drawbacks what so ever. Could I get the same results with half the fertilizer ? ... probably. 1/4th  ? perhaps... The thing is, I do not know (the experts wouldn't know either unless they would really get in on the excruciating details of the individual plant species, plant mass etc.)... and that's kind of the beauty of the Estimative Index  I'd say - You just want to make sure you got enough of everything and combine that with proper maintenance, The worst thing that can happen is that it will burn a hole in your wallet - especially if you buy the fertilizers bottles that are almost 95% water. And right now your doing nothing except for traces with Tropica Premium - plus whatever the fish, food and plant waste provides in terms of NPK... So, what I would do, as both @Sergey and myself, have recommended is to do Tropica Specialized for starters - you can always change it up as things gets better (you probably want to because that stuff is expensive in the long haul).  I do, with all due respect, disagree with @Sergey about the amount - the recommended dosing of Tropica is not nearly enough IMO, so double that - that's what I used to do not too long ago when I was doing Specialized + Seachem NPK, before switching over to DIY fertilizers.
> 
> ...


Thank you both so much for the recommendations. It helps massively. Looking forward to getting my tank back on track!!


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## Sergey (11 Sep 2021)

@Nautilus143 
I agree with @MichaelJ . Double dose of Tropica Specialized is maybe better. The main message is that you should increase the plant biomass with some easy (and cheap) ones. Frogbit is a good one, have more of it. Another, like I said before, is hornwort. I particularly like it: you don't need to root it, it looks good, easy to prune, and most of all, it grows in almost any conditions! Let it overrun the tank.  

Other easy plants are Elodea canadensis, Egeria densa (those grow like weed as well), Hygrophila  polysperma, Hygrophila corymbosa, Ludwigia repens, Ludwigia palustris. 
Rosetta plants like Cryptocorine and Echinodorus are good in a long run, but they grow much more slowly.


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## Nautilus143 (19 Sep 2021)

Sergey said:


> @Nautilus143
> I agree with @MichaelJ . Double dose of Tropica Specialized is maybe better. The main message is that you should increase the plant biomass with some easy (and cheap) ones. Frogbit is a good one, have more of it. Another, like I said before, is hornwort. I particularly like it: you don't need to root it, it looks good, easy to prune, and most of all, it grows in almost any conditions! Let it overrun the tank.
> 
> Other easy plants are Elodea canadensis, Egeria densa (those grow like weed as well), Hygrophila  polysperma, Hygrophila corymbosa, Ludwigia repens, Ludwigia palustris.
> Rosetta plants like Cryptocorine and Echinodorus are good in a long run, but they grow much more slowly.


Apologies, only just saw your post - thanks very much for all the advice Sergey. I stopped in at my local Maidenhead Aquatics today for more plants but unfortunately they were covered in what looked like BBA - I definitely don't need MORE algae in my tank! Will order online as soon as I can. Lately I'm in work every day which makes shopping online a bit tricky as I'm not home to receive anything.

The state of my tank is really getting me down at the moment but I am determined to tackle the issue. It is just really sad that it has gone from this:





To this:




I've never missed a water change and to my knowledge have not made any serious errors, despite being a beginner. I still don't really understand what the root cause of the problem is - my tank was thriving when I was blasting it with light (when the first pic was taken I had both bulbs on 6-7 hours a day with no floating plant coverage). Can it really be too much light??


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## Sergey (20 Sep 2021)

@Nautilus143  Hmm, I really wonder what has happened in your tank that caused such a downfall. What substrate do you use? 
As I understand, you've had this tank running for 7 months, and it was thriving at the beginning, but later it started to go down without any change in the parameters or maintenance routine? 
How long had it been thriving before things started to fall apart? Also, in the 1st picture: did the plants grow out such big in the tank, or it's a freshly planted batch?


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## Nautilus143 (20 Sep 2021)

Sergey said:


> @Nautilus143  Hmm, I really wonder what has happened in your tank that caused such a downfall. What substrate do you use?
> As I understand, you've had this tank running for 7 months, and it was thriving at the beginning, but later it started to go down without any change in the parameters or maintenance routine?
> How long had it been thriving before things started to fall apart? Also, in the 1st picture: did the plants grow out such big in the tank, or it's a freshly planted batch?


Tropica Soil powder. The plants grew that big inside the tank. Here's what it looked like when it was freshly planted:



I did add some extra plants along the way as you can see 

Having looked back at some photos, I see that I started having issues with diatoms specifically in mid-July. By this time I was no longer blasting my tank with light - I had realised that it was too much after starting to get some weird little tufts of green algae on my plants in April, and reduced my lighting to the level it's at now. One thing that potentially caused a problem is that my shrimp started eating my water sprite like crazy. There were always tiny bits of it floating around that I could never get rid of. Perhaps the little bits were decaying in the water? The only other thing I can think of was that I wasn't cleaning my filter regularly in the beginning. I now do it at least once a month (weekly at the moment). Cleaning involves scrubbing off the diatoms with a toothbrush and rinsing the sponges in dechlorinated water.


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## dw1305 (20 Sep 2021)

Hi all,


Nautilus143 said:


> I still don't really understand what the root cause of the problem is


It maybe a nutrient issue. Plants need all <"fourteen of the essential nutrients (as ions) for growth">, just in vastly differing amounts. What does your <"floating plant look like">? They have access to 400ppm atmospheric CO2 and <"first dibs on the light">.

What do the leaves look like, are they yellow? and if they are is it the old or new leaves?

cheers Darrel


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## MichaelJ (20 Sep 2021)

Nautilus143 said:


> Apologies, only just saw your post - thanks very much for all the advice Sergey. I stopped in at my local Maidenhead Aquatics today for more plants but unfortunately they were covered in what looked like BBA - I definitely don't need MORE algae in my tank! Will order online as soon as I can. Lately I'm in work every day which makes shopping online a bit tricky as I'm not home to receive anything.
> 
> The state of my tank is really getting me down at the moment but I am determined to tackle the issue. It is just really sad that it has gone from this:
> 
> I've never missed a water change and to my knowledge have not made any serious errors, despite being a beginner. I still don't really understand what the root cause of the problem is - my tank was thriving when I was blasting it with light (when the first pic was taken I had both bulbs on 6-7 hours a day with no floating plant coverage). Can it really be too much light??



Hi @Nautilus143  Did you change fertilizer as discussed above?  This is super important for the recovery of your tank.... since you have only been doing a lean dose of Tropica Premium so far, providing essentially no macro nutrients except for a tiny bit of Potassium, your plants have basically been relying on fish and food waste to provide all the macro nutrients (and not much at that assuming you've been doing weekly WCs).  I think it is very possible that your plants have slowly been starving to death -  compounded with too strong light... light drives the plants metabolism to a large extent and thus nutrients demands (CO2 in particular). If those demands are not met, the plants will suffer and eventually crumble - a surefire way to get all sorts of algae issues and despair.

And, as @dw1305 asks, how are those Frogbit doing?  If they don't thrive its a huge red flag indicating non-CO2 related nutrient issues.

Cheers,
Michael


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## Nautilus143 (24 Sep 2021)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> It maybe a nutrient issue. Plants need all <"fourteen of the essential nutrients (as ions) for growth">, just in vastly differing amounts. What does your <"floating plant look like">? They have access to 400ppm atmospheric CO2 and <"first dibs on the light">.
> 
> ...


Apologies for my slow reply. Here's what my frogbit looks like:





MichaelJ said:


> Hi @Nautilus143  Did you change fertilizer as discussed above?  This is super important for the recovery of your tank.... since you have only been doing a lean dose of Tropica Premium so far, providing essentially no macro nutrients except for a tiny bit of Potassium, your plants have basically been relying on fish and food waste to provide all the macro nutrients (and not much at that assuming you've been doing weekly WCs).  I think it is very possible that your plants have slowly been starving to death -  compounded with too strong light... light drives the plants metabolism to a large extent and thus nutrients demands (CO2 in particular). If those demands are not met, the plants will suffer and eventually crumble - a surefire way to get all sorts of algae issues and despair.
> 
> And, as @dw1305 asks, how are those Frogbit doing?  If they don't thrive its a huge red flag indicating non-CO2 related nutrient issues.
> 
> ...


I have indeed changed over to Tropica Specialised now


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## MichaelJ (24 Sep 2021)

Nautilus143 said:


> Apologies for my slow reply. Here's what my frogbit looks like:
> 
> 
> I have indeed changed over to Tropica Specialised now



@Nautilus143  That sounds good.

How long have you had those frogbit ? Of course, if you haven't had the frogbit for more than a couple of weeks and if they always looked like this, the current look of your frogbit may not entirely reflect the nutrient state of your tank.
I noticed the leaves have very pronounced veins. I'm not entirely sure what, if any, deficiency that might point to (Mg or Iron perhaps?), but none of mine shows the veins to this extent.  Also from previous pictures (above) I noticed that the roots are very long which may indicate lower than ideal amount of nutrients, but not necessarily a deficiency problem.

Cheers,
Michael


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## Nautilus143 (25 Sep 2021)

MichaelJ said:


> @Nautilus143  That sounds good.
> 
> How long have you had those frogbit ? Of course, if you haven't had the frogbit for more than a couple of weeks and if they always looked like this, the current look of your frogbit may not entirely reflect the nutrient state of your tank.
> I noticed the leaves have very pronounced veins. I'm not entirely sure what, if any, deficiency that might point to (Mg or Iron perhaps?), but none of mine shows the veins to this extent.  Also from previous pictures (above) I noticed that the roots are very long which may indicate lower than ideal amount of nutrients, but not necessarily a deficiency problem.
> ...


I've had the frogbit a month. What's really strange is that I've just looked at my photos from a month ago and my issue with diatoms was absolutely nowhere near the scale it is now:



This was taken just after I took out my water sprite and staurogyne repens and replaced it with other plants. When I removed those plants and put the new ones in, a LOT of muck was kicked up. Although I did have diatoms before, it was not even close to the level I have now. I'm wondering whether this was a major contributor to the problem. 

Over the last week I've been doing 33% water changes every other day. What I'm noticing is that the diatoms are continuing to build up on the plant leaves and the filter inlets but not on the glass like before. Its extremely difficult to clean off the filter though, and I can't rub it off the plant leaves. From what I've read this is one of the things that is usually used to diagnose diatoms, so I am a bit confused. I'm tempted to get some otocinclus but I don't think they will clear it, seeing as I can't wipe it off. I'm going to continue with the water changes for a bit, but at this point I'm seriously wondering whether I'll have to rip everything out of the tank and start again...


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## dw1305 (25 Sep 2021)

Hi all, 


MichaelJ said:


> if you haven't had the frogbit for more than a couple of weeks and if they always looked like this, the current look of your frogbit may not entirely reflect the nutrient state of your tank.


The Frogbit looks pretty healthy, I was expecting it would show some obvious nutrient deficiency symptoms, but it doesn't. 


MichaelJ said:


> Lights still looks pretty strong to me... again, it's kind of hard to judge from a photo.


This is the million dollar question. 


Nautilus143 said:


> I have indeed changed over to Tropica Specialised now


We can't really judge how bright your light is, because the Frogbit looks healthy I might be tempted to turn <"the light intensity back up"> now that you are adding the "Tropica Specialised".

cheers Darrel


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## MichaelJ (25 Sep 2021)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> The Frogbit looks pretty healthy, I was expecting it would show some obvious nutrient deficiency symptoms, but it doesn't.


@dw1305  Agreed. Pretty healthy. Colors look good to me.  The only thing that struck me was the pronounced veins, but if a deficiency I would also think it would come with pale leaves and other bad signs, as I've seen in the past. Also, I would have excepted a bit more propagation after a month, maybe.



Nautilus143 said:


> This was taken just after I took out my water sprite and staurogyne repens and replaced it with other plants. When I removed those plants and put the new ones in, a LOT of muck was kicked up. Although I did have diatoms before, it was not even close to the level I have now. I'm wondering whether this was a major contributor to the problem.
> 
> Over the last week I've been doing 33% water changes every other day. What I'm noticing is that the diatoms are continuing to build up on the plant leaves and the filter inlets but not on the glass like before. Its extremely difficult to clean off the filter though, and I can't rub it off the plant leaves. From what I've read this is one of the things that is usually used to diagnose diatoms, so I am a bit confused.



I agree, it is very confusing. I always associated diatoms with  new and immature tanks.  It's almost like your tank has never gotten around to build that beneficial bacteria flora and yes, algae, that would stifle the diatoms and eventually make them go away. Could also be due to high levels of silicates in your tap water that compound the problem, or perhaps those rocks  you have in there are leaching silicates - in every picture, they always seems to be covered in the most amount of diatoms. What are those rocks anyway?



Nautilus143 said:


> I'm tempted to get some otocinclus but I don't think they will clear it,


Although the Oto's will eat the diatoms, there is only so much they can do at this stage, but they are always good to have to keep certain algae and diatoms at bay. (I have Oto's in both my tanks).

Cheers,
Michael


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## MichaelJ (25 Sep 2021)

Nautilus143 said:


> but at this point I'm seriously wondering whether I'll have to rip everything out of the tank and start again...


Hi @Nautilus143  Well, I would give it a bit more time.


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## Nautilus143 (25 Sep 2021)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> The Frogbit looks pretty healthy, I was expecting it would show some obvious nutrient deficiency symptoms, but it doesn't.
> 
> ...





MichaelJ said:


> @dw1305  Agreed. Pretty healthy. Colors look good to me.  The only thing that struck me was the pronounced veins, but if a deficiency I would also think it would come with pale leaves and other bad signs, as I've seen in the past. Also, I would have excepted a bit more propagation after a month, maybe.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you both for your continued input! I think I'll put the lights back to their original positions (I had angled the bulbs outwards slightly so they weren't shining light directly on the water) but I'll leave the length of the photoperiod as is (6h). Regarding the rocks, they are ohko stone/dragon stone. They have developed a bit of a green colour over time but I dont mind that really. Its my plants looking a complete and utter mess that I'm unhappy with! Also, I'll consider otos. I had heard they are very fragile but I saw loads and loads in the MA I visited last weekend and none looked ill/dying.


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## dw1305 (25 Sep 2021)

Hi all, 


Nautilus143 said:


> (I had angled the bulbs outwards slightly so they weren't shining light directly on the water) but I'll leave the length of the photoperiod as is (6h).


That makes low light a lot more likely, it was probably still shining on the Frogbit, but not lower into the tank onto the submerged plants.

I'd try a longer photoperiod as well, probably eight hours for starters. If things don't improve you've taken light out of the equation.

cheers Darrel


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## MichaelJ (25 Sep 2021)

Hi @dw1305  What about those Ohko/Dragon rocks? are they prone to leaching minerals such as silicates? Searching around seems to suggest that they may, at least for a while? Seems inconclusive. 


I agree on the longer photoperiod. 

Cheers,
Michael


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## sparkyweasel (25 Sep 2021)

There's some discussion here;
Silicates


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## John q (26 Sep 2021)

MichaelJ said:


> What about those Ohko/Dragon rocks? are they prone to leaching minerals such as silicates?


I think these rocks are mainly made up of clay, silt and other organic materials, so likely contain a fair variety of minerals, including silicates. Just how many of these minerals get leached into the water column, I don't know, but suspect it's a negligible amount. 

One thing I can say with some certainly is that these rocks alone are not the cause of the algae or diatoms seen in the above pictures. 
I can also confidently say that dragon stone needn't be an algae or diatom magnet.

Picture below shows stones that have been in a tank for almost 12 months and have never been cleaned whilst in the tank.


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## MichaelJ (26 Sep 2021)

John q said:


> I think these rocks are mainly made up of clay, silt and other organic materials, so likely contain a fair variety of minerals, including silicates. Just how many of these minerals get leached into the water column, I don't know, but suspect it's a negligible amount.
> 
> One thing I can say with some certainly is that these rocks alone are not the cause of the algae or diatoms seen in the above pictures.
> I can also confidently say that dragon stone needn't be an algae or diatom magnet.
> Picture below shows stones that have been in a tank for almost 12 months and have never been cleaned whilst in the tank.


Hi @John q  Yes the silicate factor might be a red herring... Plenty of people are using rocks that leaches silicate, tap water with elevated silicate levels and sand as substrate without having diatom issues (including myself at some point), besides what you typical see while the tank is immature. From what I can tell, when you get a sufficient amount of beneficial biology going in the tank the diatom will usually recede regardless.

@Nautilus143  The tank has now become very barren and bleak. I think it would help a lot to accelerate the recovery if you would add a lot of easy cheap fast growing plants. That, combined with your regular dosing of the Tropica Specialized, upped WC's and moderated light intensity in part helped along with the frogbit will help. You should also up the hours a bit as @dw1305 suggest above - its not the hours within reason that causes problems, its the intensity. 

Cheers,
Michael


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## Nautilus143 (4 Oct 2021)

Thanks to all for the input r.e. rocks. I've just ordered more plants online and I'm hoping to get some Otos this weekend. Despite doing 3 water changes a week at the moment (2 x 33%, 1 x 66%), the bloody diatoms have spread to my frogbit! I'm not sure if this is simply because the tank is so badly "infected" with them or because my shrimp like to chew on the leaves. I've seen them doing this a few times. It's only ever the older leaves, but still. Grr! Hopefully the new plants will help. Not totally sure what I'm getting as I've bought three "not so perfect" plants from Aqua Essentials. Figured there isn't much point splashing out on top quality plants with my tank the way it is.

On the bright side, my Bacopa has finally started to show signs of growing back after the massive chop I gave it. New growth will probably turn orange within the week but I'm glad the plant isn't dead (I was a bit worried as it used to bounce back immediately after a trim).


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## MichaelJ (5 Oct 2021)

Nautilus143 said:


> I've just ordered more plants online and I'm hoping to get some Otos this weekend


@Nautilus143  Sounds good.  Turning things around always takes patience and time.


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## John q (5 Oct 2021)

Nautilus143 said:


> New growth will probably turn orange within the week but I'm glad the plant isn't dead (I was a bit worried as it used to bounce back immediately after a trim).


If you see diatoms starting to cover the leaves they can be wiped off by gently rubbing them between your thumb and forefinger, best to do this prior to a water change.


Nautilus143 said:


> I've bought three "not so perfect" plants from Aqua Essentials. Figured there isn't much point splashing out on top quality plants with my tank the way it is.


Hopefully the new plants will take. If they don't and you want some healthy, fast growing plants that have already adapted to life under water just pm me your address and make a £3 donation to the forum and I'll send you some out the following week.


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## Nautilus143 (5 Oct 2021)

John q said:


> If you see diatoms starting to cover the leaves they can be wiped off by gently rubbing them between your thumb and forefinger, best to do this prior to a water change.
> 
> Hopefully the new plants will take. If they don't and you want some healthy, fast growing plants that have already adapted to life under water just pm me your address and make a £3 donation to the forum and I'll send you some out the following week.


Thank you so much John  I will keep this thread updated with my progress!


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## Nautilus143 (10 Oct 2021)

Apologies for vertical pic, but here are my lovely new Otos  




Here you can really see how bad my Monte Carlo has got. New growth is obviously the light stuff. I've already seen one of the Otos having a chew on it!

I also got a new Echinodorus and a moss in my mystery plant box. So unfortunately, nothing fast growing. I've whacked them in in though.


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## eminor (15 Oct 2021)

You need to take the light pill, hardest one, it's a kind of blackpill actually, everybody want tons of light in the tank, me first, thanks to this board the therapy is going slowly, i'm now a medium light user which is a step to the freedom which is low light


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