# Please share your successful longerterm tank...



## leap (22 Aug 2015)

....because I'm desperate to look upon some beauty (and hope)...

Importantly, I am curious to know what you do - or don't do, to keep them optimal?

Please if you have a mo can you share your insights about how & why your tank works so well - and give those of us in my situation an idea of your set up - substrate/filtration/ferts/lighting/wc/age of the tank, etc

I have just had an epiphany that actually I don't know what I am doing when it comes to my tanks.
This is so not a good place to be - especially since I thought I had it all worked out. _Theoretically. _I was proud of all my research... read Walsted till it came out of my ears - read forum topics - at the end of it all I was ready to go bigtime....

Well, pride does come before a fall, right?! 

This is _before_ I actually spent hours - nay - weeks - baking substrate, setting them up and staring into a glimmer of hope that one day there would be these lush healthy tanks housing happy fish.

Now months on - the ugly reality is staring me bleakly in the face. My pride is well hurt!  I almost can't stand looking at my tanks anymore.  I'm onto the excel out of desperation now. 

It all starts off hunky dory and then degenerates into algae, yellow leaves, no growth and waste.  I'm despondent - but still determined - or just plain foolish maybe.

Out of all my tanks - it's only a neglected mulm riddled experiment that has a healthy plant population(no fish.)

Is complete neglect, a substrate thick with mulm & a slow poke filter that has a trickle out of the encrusted spraybar - with no water changes - no filter rinses, no anything - only a calcium deposit crud on everything ....is this really the way to go?  Does my answer lie here do you think? -  or is there some intangible middle way I am missing?


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## Martin in Holland (22 Aug 2015)

I struggled for about a year, but didn't want to give up...tried all kinds of plants, because I liked to look of them, I failed to see that the plants I had didn't make the scape, I was more of a plant collector. Many plants never made it or grew in the beginning and later on stopped or became deformed.
For me it was lowering the light almost as low as in a low tech tank, adjusting the CO2 accordingly (lower), going from EI fertz to PPS-pro (as my TDS with EI was 500 or more, now it's 160-20) and using easier plants to make a scape not the other way around.
I always maintained my tanks weekly and even daily as I'm sure this is a must.

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/two-sisters.38013/


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## JohnC (22 Aug 2015)

All my tanks (see sig) have been run long term. Some are onto their 3 or 4 year... I've only really had to break one down as the kit did not live up to my expectations of the hardscape i wanted (T5's in the hood meant that the light was always too bright for the hardscape set up). 

Assess what you want to achieve and do it with the minimal of energy going into the tank (light) you can get away with or the amount of maintenance you want to put into it. Of course keeping on top of dosing (if needed) and cleaning is essential.


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## leap (22 Aug 2015)

Thanks guys - oh my word, I can't tell you how much hope your tanks give me!

I am still reading all about your journeys thank you for sharing. I will continue reading a little later on - just trying to absorb it all. Really enjoying the reads and the photo's.

These are MAGNIFICENT tanks - all of them.

Beautiful thoughtful names for your tanks John. Also very much love  your amazing decoupage cabinet. 

Today I thought I should just chuck it in & walk away tbh....but now I feel inspired to keep on trying.  

John I had to laugh at your learning curve with your corner tank...'learning about cynobacteria...learning about erithromycin'....

It could be me! I just discovered erithromycin could help too - but where to get it? .... do I feel a chest infection coming on?!

I also have red lilies in my small tanks - eventually they may yet cause me grief but I love them regardless. At the moment they melt then regrow & so we go!

Martin, love your layout & the way the wood branches out - are the plants mainly epiphytic?  Or is there soil in the tank?  How long do you leave your lights on for? 

 I think you are right I need to get a handle on my lights. I have a few tanks with plants in them - just excess trimmings and spares that get hardly any light and they just don't get the issues I see 
in the lit tanks.

I put loads of floaters in the tanks yesterday to try to tone down the light input while I grapple with diatoms and cyno. Deep joy - but hey - onwards and hopefully upwards!


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## Martin in Holland (23 Aug 2015)

My tank scape before lasted for one year, it could last longer as it was going really well, but I just wanted something else.....I learned a lot from this setup
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/dutch-but-not.33675/


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## leap (23 Aug 2015)

That's the thing - it seems we are on an ever-learning course with our tanks.  I've been meddling well over a year but I still think I am a beginner...or maybe just a bit slow on the uptake!

It's a beautiful tank you have there Martin, you are doing really well. Loved the buce - it looks very healthy.  I have a couple but they melted almost to nothing. Now they are starting to sprout leaves again - so fingers crossed they get stronger soon.

Interesting point about the pps-pro not raising TDS as much as EI.  My tap water is hard & TDS is pretty high too. So something I must think about carefully before I go and waste yet more money. 

Add to that that I think my choice of filter material might be causing more issues than not (I have used de-nitryifing material in it) and I'm thinking maybe this is eating nitrogen in my tank, maybe starving my plants? I might have to rethink this too - but the thought of trying to cycle in new material....!

I have read several threads on what is available for ferts. I'm sure EI was made for people like me who are clueless....but with it raising TDS, it might not be my answer! I'm just plain confused about how to proceed. Wish it was easy, stick in something couple of times a week and that's it!

Spent the weekend sucking out crud from under the wood and generally cleaning/pruning.  I am trying low light to get some of the issues under control, 5 hours a day at the moment.


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## Martin in Holland (23 Aug 2015)

I just looked for another way to fertilize my tank as EI gave not only high TDS but on my floating plants it showed as little crystals on their leaves and looking burned while I had really low lighting.....I heard about PPS-pro and as it is almost the same as EI just a more moderate dosing I went ahead and gave it a try and never looked back.


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## pepedopolous (23 Aug 2015)

It's all about the light...

If you have loads of light it's like driving through a crowded city street in a Porche 911 at full speed. Not easy, takes a lot of skill, and even then very risky.

Of course you need to start using pressurised CO2 as well and that is a whole new aspect to learn...

Reduce your light until algae is manageable. I think you shouldn't need to clean aquarium glass even on a weekly basis (though it's a good habit).

By reduce light I mean a photo period of no more than 6 hours. You need to reduce intensity as well by raising the lighting unit, removing T5 tubes, or using an LED controller if you have such lights.

Take the EI recipe and halve it (either when making the solution, or just by adding half the recommended dose). You could also try a commercial fertiliser such as Tropica Specialised and start with the recommended dose (divided by 7 for daily doses). Then you can slowly increase the dose from here and see what happens.

The downside with low light is that because everything happens more slowly, new emersed plants will adapt more slowly to your tank's conditions which change anyway as you experiment and the tank matures. Still I think it's better this way to have some time to think and make informed decisions.

P


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## Rasbo (23 Aug 2015)

I have nine tanks, all planted with varying degrees of success. Like you I am after something low tech with less maintenance. The first ones were planted in gravel or silica sand with some Tetrabase underneath to supply iron etc. Gravel much less successful than the silica sand. THe three tanks based on that grow reasonable crypts, vallis and some algae though largely because in summer they get the evening sun, nothing ottos cannot deal with. The real horror is the 350lt corner tank with tetrabase and cat litter, plants really do not want to grow and because it has T5 lighting has always had an algae problem, now eradicated BG algae chemically just left with endless brown algae which seems impossible to get rid of. So I turned to Walsted and planted a small 60x20x20cm tank with pogo, micranthum micromoides crypts and moss, the tiniest filter in cat litter and soil. Growth is fantastic with no added ferts even monte carlo has grown though had real issues with roots not holding in the cat litter. Another with peat underneath is less successful but still OK. My advice would be to go with soil but to be aware that it takes a while to stabalise.


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## leap (23 Aug 2015)

Thanks pepedopolous your post confirms for me that I am doing the correct thing here by going with 5 hours of light at the moment. I'm learning big lessons in being patient here - the tanks are hard masters I tell you!  I wanted everything - like yesterday - the whole set up flourishing! Patience is not a strength I have so I am trying not to get all rash - and just to go slow but steady as I can - on the ropes of precarious learning.
I'm using excel - but not sure I could go to pressurised CO2,  I'm afraid of all that setting up and technical stuff!

Rasbo - I do wish it was simple and especially that it was easy!   Part of me won't let go of the idea that it can be simple/easy and beautiful at the same time, the tanks in the links above are reall inspiration for this.
Though I still don't think it is simple enough for me!.  

I'd love some otto's dearly (I think they are gorgeous!). I get sooooo tempted everytime I go to the lfs. I have to talk myself into being logical & putting the fishes interests first. Because my largest tanks are only 24L & I don't know whether they are over or understocked even!  Some are just snails, others house shrimp & snails and the 24L's are for betta, 1-2 amano shrimp plus 2 nerites.

For me it's hitting the tanks balance & sweet spot that is so challenging. Currently I have 12 tanks on the go. (What was I thinking!!!!)

6 are 10-19L - the rest are 24L.  Out of this lot not many are looking very good - plants survive but only just.

I want to set up some larger tanks because I'd love to see my bettas in heavenly paradise!  But after all my issues I think I must sit tight with the big ideas. Make these tanks work first  and then create bigger tanks for the betta's.

The only good thing for me is that despite the tanks challenges my bettas are doing well.

One of my girls jumped her tank when I was away on holiday - someone left the cover off. She was out of water for at least an hour - I think much longer!  She fell at least a meter and a half into a container that was on the floor.
When the nice guy who was caring for my babies ( I know I am so soppy!) found her she was in a bad way.

Well she has pulled through, but sadly there was damage to her. Parts of her had shrivelled up with being so dry.
I'm doing everything I can for her and she seems to be looking better lately so I live in hope there is still room for improvement for her.  She's a miracle fish - and I really want only the healthiest tank for her so she can continue to improve.
Whenever I think I am going to throw in the towel I look at her and I think - nope - got to carry on - if she can fight - so can I!!!

Good plan to go Walstead - this brown algae is a horrid curse!  It's lovely to read how you your low filter tank is doing well.
I read with interest that you only have a small filter in your tank.

I think my filters are possibly overkill - I might be doing more harm than good.  The 24L's have eheim canisters ( the small ones) - also internal sponge filters.  Think I am possibly barking up the wrong tree - I thought lot's of filtration would be the smart way forwards - specially with bettas - now I am not at all sure anymore!

My 12L experiment tank with it's almost non existent filter and blocked up trickle flow is the one that boasts the healthy plants!  I'm thinking there is a potential lesson it this. Could too much filtration rob the plants of nutrients? Is it possible to have too many denitrifing bacteria?  I just don't know!

I'm keen to give monte carlo a go in some of my tanks but do you think it will cope with 5hrs of light?


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## Rasbo (24 Aug 2015)

There are similarities with us both having small tanks and hard water (London). I believe that the shallowness of the tanks helps a lot - just think of a small stream. Many will tell you that high circulation is everything but I think that only applies to high light tanks where plants are being force fed and growing quickly and need nutrients readily available. 

Here is the way I set my tank up http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/first-time-aquascape.35466/#post-390846 

Dry start to get the plants growing with no shortage of CO2 am still seeing rampant growth and having to trim months later. The second tank less successful probably because i used peat rather than soil. Hair grass failed but moss doing nicely resident honey gourami's have bred. Quite a lot of algae on the glass but that is due to sunlight this time of year.

I would suggest the following:
Get some soil, mine was just garden but aquatic soil would be OK and leave it outside in a bucket covered with some rainwater for a few weeks before using in the tank. I put in a half inch layer covered with substrate, I'd recommend black silica sand, soil came with bloodworm and daphnia appeared too. I did a dry start so plants could root - all plants are grown emersed so they do not have to make the transition straight away, I used invitro plants which are cheap and strong and healthy. Tank flooded a month or so later.

Don't be too scared of stocking I have loads of cherry shrimp with 5 vietnamese mountain minnows and 4 cory hastatus in one and loads more cherries and honey gourami in the other. So long as inhabitants are small all seems well. I have another with lots of rasbora which anyone would tell you was overstocked but they seem happy.

So just light and plants to consider. I have tried various LED lights for the small tanks as these do not add heat and will fit under the plastic hoods. All have grown plants so I think any light is suitable, most have a 6 to 8 hour timer. Water circulation is necessary but does not have to be aggressive, even a sponge filter can be enough. For plants I would steer clear of stem plants - you want ones with a root system so they can benefit from the nutrient rich soil.

Crypts, hairgrass, HC, micrantemum micromoides etc


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## leap (24 Aug 2015)

Now that is such a fab little tank Rasbo - you must be well chuffed to see all that amazing growth!

Funny you mention about streams. I was just reflecting yesterday how when I take my dog for walks along the river the best plant growth seems to be in the more shaded areas, with algae much more prevalent where the water is in direct sunlight and often less plant life there too.

I have mostly LED lights - finnex for planted tanks.  I definitely under estimated how powerful they are.  I think I was in totally overkill with them and am grateful to everyone here for pointing me into better control over my lighting.  It's only been a couple of days but already things do look better & I feel my tanks are almost breathing sighs of relief!

My tanks are largely soil (which I baked as it was freezing cold when I set them up so I did not fancy going the rinsing route) and akadama (too little I think), Some have tropica base added as I had a few bags lying around. They're capped with black sand in the front, small size black gravel at the back.

One thing I regret is not using any red clay. I am thinking on making small clay balls and drying them, then pushing them into the substrate....mmmm.

If I ever get up the drive to move on & create bigger tans I will deffo follow your method Rasbo.

I planted lots of anubias,crypts & some java & various moss. Lobelia cardinalis has been a good one for me. I have lotus Taiwan & red tiger lilies.  I tried HC but it got leggy despite trimming and then a bout of algae killed it off outright. I have lost a great many plants alas!

I also used a few stem plants which are temperamental - most struggle on sparsely!  My biggest worry right now are the anubias that get a gritty deposit on the leaves and recently have had diatoms.

I'm pretty sure another aspect of my plant failure is due to the high temps the Bettas need - the tanks with shrimp do much better at the cooler temps. Not sure how to work around this issue. I lowered the betta tanks to just under 27 degrees for now - they seem okay with it but I don't dare to go any lower.

I think I am going to ramp up the planting again very soon as I love a really thick lush look and all the tank pics you lot have posted here really make me yearn for it!  

I was a bit shocked by how much organic matter was sitting in my gravel - spending lot's of time with the trusty old turkey baster cleaning it up. It's difficult to see it on the black gravel...no wonder I have had issues with planaria....

I'm doing 20% water changes every other day on the tanks and recently have been doing 50% twice a week. It's killing me!
Think I could be overdoing it. 

How often do you do water changes Rasbo?


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## Rasbo (24 Aug 2015)

I am very lax about water changes probably on average around fortnightly with topping up as required, no more than 50% often less. The shrimp can act as an early warning system, if they start swimming around rather than eating then things are getting critical. That has happened once when a tank was in its early stages, perhaps a slight ammonia rise. I cannot comment on plants for higher temperatures as I am mostly keeping tanks in 22-24c range. Maybe look up plants suitable for discus aquaria.


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## leap (24 Aug 2015)

Rasbo - the water changes you are making seem like paradise to me - I am so sure I am being ocd about them - I need to chill out!

I'd not thought about looking at what they plant in discus tanks - neat idea! Thanks for that.


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## Rasbo (24 Aug 2015)

I worried about the water changes on a small tank at first and was making more changes than now but providing you do not overfeed or have large dirty fish I believe there is some sort of balance eventually. I also believe that a shallow tank is easier to grow some plants in than a deeper one as there is more surface area and that if you have a ripple then carbon is more available than it would be in a deeper tank with less surface area. As a consequence flow is less of a problem. Choose plants that are rooted rather than those which rely on the minerals etc in the water column. Having said that mosses are doing well for me too - weeping moss being slightly better than xmas moss IMO. Maybe will try a moss wall with them next. In time when the soil might be a bit depleted use slow release fertiliser pushed into the substrate for crypts etc. 

Interested to see how it goes. Where are you exactly?


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## leap (24 Aug 2015)

Wait.... this is interesting about the flow not being too vital if there is carbon preservation.  That is lots of food for thought.

I think shallow tanks look amazing. Mine are typical rectangles but I often wish they were more shallow - not least for easier access. I have them all lined up on a shelved rack and not much space between the shelves to play with. Totally impractical!
When I get more money together I will look into some custom tanks in the right proportions.

Funny, weeping moss is doing pretty well for me too - and xmas moss is ok too. It's java that stumps me - mine gets very sparse and leggy. Maybe if I prune it harder it will eventually thicken out - and I thought that was the easy moss! Yea right! 

Great minds ( erm not that mine is actually that great - but you know what I mean!) think alike. Just today I was thinking a moss wall could look quite spiffing. I have some fissidens on mesh at the bottom of the tank not doing well at all, which I have just hung on the side of the tank - hardly a wall but it did get me thinking. I notice the closer to the water surface I can get my moss - the better it does.

I really have a thing about moss - one day I think I will create a moss tank and try to learn about as many species as I can.

I'm already seeing improvements in the tanks - just can't believe how fast it happens. Much less diatoms. The water looks clearer and the feesh  are really happy and (I think) more active. I'm worried I am imagining it all, but even the plants are looking less yellow & washed out.

Sometimes it is so overwhelming and all of you have been brilliant at helping me regain focus & work out a plan - thank you so much.

Most of what I have left are water column uptakers. There are some crypts,sagittaria & lotus but that's about it.  Now I am getting back on track I think this week I will buy some more rooted plants. Been looking at crypt parva as a possible foreground plant & going to try my luck with monte carlo too.

I'll try get some photo's of my set up posted on here - warts and all later this week.

I'm in Surrey, whereabouts are you?


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## leap (25 Aug 2015)

It must be midnight madness. I decided to just crack on with it and order some rooting plants.
Parva, lilleopsis, rotala's,monte carlo to name some.  Very controlled and logical.

But then...
without warning I broke down, got carried away and ordered some fancy smancy probably already doomed RED plants.
Oh fool that I am!

The retail therapy was good while it lasted, but already I have buyers regret!

Oh well... if they start looking atrocious I will make plenty red wabi kusa I guess..........


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## Rasbo (25 Aug 2015)

I've found getting plants that are small in leaf tends to make the tank look larger than it really is but there are no small red plants so have had to make do with brown crypts. Make sure that the MC never gets shaded and it should be OK, a bugger to plant though - hence the dry start. 

Bromley


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## leap (26 Aug 2015)

I'll probably try planting the MC during a 50% wc. I struggle to plant most things - the tweezers always tend to stick to the plants just when I think they are nicely in the soil!
And the bettas are very curious - they make me laugh as  when I try to work in the tanks they are right little pests getting in the way!  I'll remove them as this might be a bit of a plant-athon.
I think brown plants look much more natural than reds.Reds can look quite dutch and formal. Good aquascapers can pull off a very natural effect - so beautiful, but loads of experience helps them do this. Problem is I love the reds but love a natural look too.

I have some red ludwigia in one of the tanks - it got quite muted and veers more towards some ochre/ apricot yellows with a little red still on the uppermost leaves. I really like it. It does reasonably well in my water & pretty slow growing too. So I'll use some of the new batch in another tank on the same shelf to try to get more of a visual balance between the tanks.
I might take down two of my scraggly 12L tanks and give red wabi kusa a go in them instead.


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## leap (31 Aug 2015)

Just a little update - things are turning around for my tanks thanks to everyone's excellent advice.
Still a smidge of diatoms - but a fraction of what it was. Anubia's seem to be greening up more too. 
I'm starting to believe I can actually get to a point where there's more enjoyment than pain involved in this hobby.
So just want to say a BIG thanks for all the help.


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