# 'The Full Monty'  Has Left The Building last photos



## REDSTEVEO

Coming to a UKAPS page near you soon....My first complete ADA scape in a brand new 400 litre Eheim Incpiria Aquarium. To be planted up as a Discus Aquarium...


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## Martin in Holland

subscribed...would like to see this...sound interesting


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## James O

+1


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## REDSTEVEO

Demolition almost complete, next comes the rebuild, can't wait....


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## James O

I love it whenever I see that sign.  I keep imagining 100ft daffodils stomping across the road


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## Lindy

When I was a kid my parents used to tell me to look out for the trees crossing the road :-\


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## REDSTEVEO

Remember 'Day of the Triffids'  1981 anyone...

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/...Zpz2O8BxSkKlRKinqmdalkzFyUp9FlKINauA6P9qOUMcM


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## Lindy

Oh yes, I am that old...


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## Edvet

and me


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## Gruff

Look forward to seeing this develop.


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## REDSTEVEO

Updates coming soon.... been working on the text separately and getting the photos lined up..don't want to miss anything out..

Watch this space!


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## REDSTEVEO

At last...The Aquarium is on its way, all being well it will be here on Sunday.

Watch out for a massive update coming very soon..


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## REDSTEVEO

‘The Full Monty’ Eheim Incpiria 400 Litre Aquarium ADA Aquatic Journal
Steve Lancashire

Okay so it has been almost two years since I sold my Juwel Trigon 190 tank. I sold it because I had just about exhausted every possible theme of aquascaping a corner tank.


Trigon Pictures at its best...





That and of course the fact that my better half wanted a new (bigger) dining room table and chairs.


What she had...



What I thought she wanted...




What she actually wanted...



I also needed to re-evaluate what I wanted to do next. It didn’t take long. I decided my next project would be a planted Discus Tank, going back to what I know and love. Only this time it was going to be a new (bigger) setup than before.


The problem was now that my missus had got her new dining room suite there was not much space for me to work with. Hmmm……how was I going to get around that problem?

I did think about converting my office space upstairs and setting it up there, but to be honest I wasn’t sure the floorboards would take the weight. This tank weighs 195 kilos dry, when full with water, substrate and rocks it is pretty close to 700 kilos.


So I discussed with her that must be obeyed all of the options available to me, from re-arranging the whole layout of the living room and dining room!!


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## REDSTEVEO

Needless to say that idea went down like a...



So I suggested selling the dining room furniture...




Or building a small extension!!



Even Moving house...





And finally knocking the part dividing wall down between the living room and dining room!!





Needless to say I got knocked back on every suggestion, the discussion was all over in less than it takes to say Myriophyllum Heterophyllum. So I finished up with lots of…..



That’s the main reason why it has been almost two years since I sold the Trigon 190. So it became an Aquarium-less house for the next two years.


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## REDSTEVEO

Wot no aquarium...

So I started saving all the money I would normally be spending on my habit obsession hobby and squirreled it away, adding to it with any small amounts I could.


The next thing I did was be extremely nice to my wife, a period of gentle persuasion by buying her chocolates.




Or maybe some flowers…


Doing the food shopping…


Or cooking maybe…


Surely not housework and cleaning…



I know how about emptying the dishwasher now and then…



I can even try decorating…





God the list goes on….But surely it would all be worthwhile in the end?


But all this time I dropped the odd hint here and there until eventually she came with me to a few places to look at new aquariums.


We went to Oasis in Salford, which is well worth a visit if you get the time, The Green Machine in Wrexham which you all know about by now, Andy’s Aquatics in Rock Ferry near Birkenhead, and several local TFS and Garden centres. We looked at loads of aquariums but they were either too big or too expensive, or both. Especially as we were still faced with the problem of a lack of space.


So as you do I trawled the Internet for hours, days and weeks, and then, I found what was looking for. The Eheim Incpiria 400 litre freshwater Aquarium.



Yes it was big, and it was expensive but hey ho, I might as well get shot for a sheep as for a lamb.

So off I went to the Abyss Aquatics Warehouse in Stockport and took my darling wife along for her opinion.


Big Mistake!!!!



“It was a bit on the big side…” she said, “I don’t really like the plain white doors on the front…” “What’s wrong with this one over here with the goldfish in it…”





Speechless…what could I say...

Never mind I had a cunning plan…I think…

It was time to knock down the offending wall and create some space…


Figure 1 Work begins more Elf and Safety



That didn't hurt a bit...

Maybe I was going to need someone with the right equipment to help move the rubble…



Okay it took me six hours non stop to knock it down, clear up the mess and ferry fifteen massive sacks of building rubble down to the local recycling plant…



Then there was the slight amount of brick dust to clear away…


And some dusting…


And all this before my other half got back from work…gulp…do you think she would she notice…



Nah surely not...


I think she’ll notice…gulp!


Now on to stage 3…What do we/do about the big chunk of carpet missing where the wall had been?


Several of these later…



This was our final choice…By that I mean my wife’s, but it’s a start…





Then was the need for ‘The art of _not quite so_ subtle subterfuge…’

Daraaaa…..



Alright maybe not that subtle...



A perfect simulation don’t you think…

Needless to say I wasn't getting a 'Blue Peter Badge for it.....

But...By Jove I think it did the trick....because now the tank is on its way and I can't wait until Sunday!

There will now be a short Interlude...

And key music...


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## R.W.

Love how you are adding so many pictures, keeps it very interesting haha


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## REDSTEVEO

The best is yet to come, starting tomorrow...


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## Alje

I'm hooked especially if it continues to be as interesting....


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## REDSTEVEO

Cheers guys, I'll do my best...


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## REDSTEVEO

Sitting here waiting until the Eheim Incpiria 400 litre aquarium arrives at 1:30 today all being well...getting nervous..just hope it gets here and no damages...


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## tim

Hope it arrived safely, looking forward to following this


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## Edvet

Looks like it crashed , and he's devastated................


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## Alje

Nah his misses saw the invoice when it was delivered and battered him


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## REDSTEVEO

Ooooh the suspense...nothing like a bit of drama...is there...

Sorry to keep you all waiting and wondering...It has arrived...safe and sound...later than expected but safe and sound never-the-less...and it looks absolutely brilliant even when its empty...

Problem was there was a little matter of a visit to see my new grandson...'Jake' who has the amazing ability to demand everyone's attention even though he's only three months old. So, pictures and update got second priority...

To be continued...


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## Greenfinger2

Hi Redstevo, Great thread Had me giggling  Looking forward to the scape now


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## Edvet

Grats on the little attentionseeker!!


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## REDSTEVEO

Thanks guys...if there is one thing that makes my missus go all soft and gooey it's our grandson...me too if I'm honest.

Lot's more pics and updates to come...


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## ADA

Sub'd


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## Lindy

Fantastic journal, making me chuckle. Keep up the good work. Btw' loved the cardboard 'mock up' that was inspired.


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## REDSTEVEO

Thanks guys...I am sitting here on pins and needles...my wife is off tomorrow evening visiting family abroad for ten days...which gives me the time and space to get cracking...

I hope to start this on Thursday afternoonish and keep working on it until Sunday night...or when ever it is finished...


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## REDSTEVEO

Update from Sunday...

Well the Eheim Incpiria 400 litre aquarium was picked up from The Abyss Aquatic Warehouse in Stockport at around 11:30 ish and was delivered to my house at about 13:45 hours. My thanks to Jordan and his helpers from New Aqua who are based in Manchester. Jordan's company is a maintenance, design and installation firm for everything aquatic from ponds to aquariums. Cheers Jordan!

Also thanks to Owain, Dan, Sean, Mark and Ann Marie from the Abyss for their patience with my pestering!

Well Thursday afternoon has come and gone...just got back from Manchester Airport...





The love of my life has gone to visit her family abroad and now the work begins. I have not been wasting my time though...I've been out looking for my substrate and some wood for my hardscape...and I think I've found the mother-lode...



Surely there must be some around here...



This looks promising...how big is my tank again...?



Seriously though...there was only one place I was going to get what I was after...it was time to go and see my old mate Jim at the Green Machine in Wrexham...

Plenty to choose from here...



And here...



Here are some bits of Hornwood and rock I put to one side...



Jim even let me have a play in his sandpit...



I played around getting some rough ideas on how I was going to lay things out...



Then Jim decided he wanted to play as well...



Then I must have said something funny...



Jim eventually looking proud of his achievements in the sandpit...not...




Several hours later I piled together a few large pieces of Hornwood, about 20 kgs of rock, a large bag of ADA Powersand Special (L), several large bags of Amazonia Aqua soil, likewise of the Amazonia Powder, some Penac (W), and several bags of La Planta Sand and Sarawak sand. I probably took more than I needed to be honest, but as Jim says there is nothing worse than being in the middle of an aquascape at 2am in the morning and you run out of something...you finish up pacing about like a caged tiger waiting for the place to open again so you can go back and get it.

Jim has kindly agreed that any rock, wood or soil that is not used, he is happy to take back for a full refund...how good is that...

Any way we piled the stuff up in the middle of the room and I made my way to the till...

I can't quite remember all the details of what happened next...it was all a bit of a blur...I came over sort of all dizzy...my mind is a complete blank...never mind I'm sure it will come back to me...

Tomorrow I will begin with all the fun stuff...like putting the backing on the aquarium while I can still move it away from the wall...until then here are a few pictures of the Eheim Incpiria 400 Litre aquarium and the cabinet...

This is not just an ordinary kitchen style cabinet...this is an M&S Eheim Cabinet...it weighs a ton almost as heavy as the aquarium so it has to be reinforced with all kinds to support the weight...



The quality is superb...







A close up of the feet... two at either end and two in the centre...they measure roughly two inches square by three quarters of an inch deep...



These are the holes viewed from underneath inside the cabinet...one is for an internal water inlet pipe which I have had capped off, the other is for all the pipe work and cables to go up the dry weir so they are hidden...



Reinforced inside...



A picture of the dry weir...it measures 20 cm x 12 cm and is made of black glass, so when I put the black backing on the back of the tank it will hardly be noticeable...



Now that the aquarium is home I have taken some other photos which are better than the one above...

The dry weir looking good...



End view from dining room end...hey I can still see my tele while I'm having my dinner...



Still got the protective wrapping on the cabinet...



Top view of the smoked black glass sliding lids which glide along so smoothly...



Some goodies inside here...like the Eheim 600T Thermal filter...I am going to have this running alongside my Eheim Professional Two filter from my old setup with the Trigon...this one will be connected up to my Co2 injection system going through an inline diffuser from JBL.





It is going to be a busy few days from tomorrow...
Meanwhile here are a few photos of some of my goodies that are ready and waiting to go tomorrow...

Stuff stashed away ready to be used...

My Substrates...



Some of my rock...



Some of the Hornwood...





Some goodies inside here...



And here...



All the stuff I never threw out or sold when I sold my Trigon...



The black inlet and outlet pipes for the filters...


Well that's about it for now...more updates to come over the next few days...

One question is still bugging me...whether to use the La Planta and Sarawak sand and have an un-planted open space at the front and sides...or just go for a complete coverage of Amazonia from front to back and full width...any views welcomed...

Thanks...

Steve.


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## Lindy

If the glass sliders are smoked glass doesn't that reduce the amount of light that will get through?


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## Edvet

I guess the lights are under it


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## Alastair

That alorra substrate 

Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk 2


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## Iain Sutherland

Good day for TGM!  Pretty sure you won't run out of substrate... Wowzers!


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## REDSTEVEO

ldcgroomer said:


> If the glass sliders are smoked glass doesn't that reduce the amount of light that will get through?



Sorry...Yes I should have pointed that out...the smoked glass sliders are on the top. The two light units each with 2 x 54 watt T5's sit underneath...[DOUBLEPOST=1406814458][/DOUBLEPOST]





Alastair said:


> That alorra substrate
> 
> Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk 2



Yes...I did go a bit over the top...but I would rather have a couple of bags over than be a few bags short at 2am in the morning...plus Jim has agreed to take any full bags back for a full refund which is nice of him...[DOUBLEPOST=1406814666][/DOUBLEPOST]Well just got back from work and the clock is ticking...between now and Sunday night I want to get the backing on the tank, get my substrate in, the rocks and wood, sand sorted...still not sure about the un-planted section at the front and sides using Sarawak and La Planta sand...any views?

Must dash lots to do...updates and photos later as I go along...


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## Greenfinger2

Hi Redstevo, Super set up  This is going to be an epic Scape


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## REDSTEVEO

Thanks very much Greenfinger2...I certainly hope so...I've just been washing off the rocks and the wood and the colour change is awesome!!

I also just had a play around with the lights...gobsmackingly good...I am totally impressed with the Eheim build quality and the attention to detail...

Just having a cup of tea to steady my nerves before putting the backing on the tank...I hate that job...using JBL Fixol to get a good contact I hope it works...


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## Ady34

Looks like a great set up.
I personally would go with a sand foreground, will look nice crisp and clean to match that impeccable white cabinet . You'll have to keep it that way though  choose whichever you feel  compliments the stone best 
Cheerio
Ady


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## R.W.

Looking great so far. Creating the hardscape is my favourite part of setting up a new tank.


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## REDSTEVEO

Wow...how stressful was that...I've only stuck one side of the backing on and it took me over an hour making sure all the bubbles were out...sweating a bit...think I need more than just a cup of tea to calm my nerves...[DOUBLEPOST=1406823026][/DOUBLEPOST]





Ady34 said:


> Looks like a great set up.
> I personally would go with a sand foreground, will look nice crisp and clean to match that impeccable white cabinet . You'll have to keep it that way though  choose whichever you feel  compliments the stone best
> Cheerio
> Ady



Yeah I'm leaning that way...it will give it a bit more perspective...just not sure what shape the section with the sand is going to be yet...


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## REDSTEVEO

Decided to switch the tele off and put some tunes on...David Gray's new album 'Mutineers'...Second piece of backing on in under twenty minutes...decided to stop pfaffing around...it worked...


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## Alje

Beer o'clock


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## REDSTEVEO

Beer...not me two pints and I'm out of the game...might have a slurp of Red Wine later...just put a massive pan of soup on for later...made enough to keep me going over the next three days...

Just opened the box with the Eheim 600T Filter in...its like something out of space...all the pipework is in place for both filters.

Just ploughing through the destructions for the filter...George Ezra playing in the background...

I'm taking photo's as I go along so some interesting bits to come...


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## REDSTEVEO

Back from work...time to start...



Backing on, Lights all sorted, Filters and pipework all done, Aquarium back against the wall and central I think...the missus will tell me when she gets back if it isn't...

So here is the pictorial description of what has been going on...started at...

1.   Made myself a healthy snack...can't work on an empty stomach...



Look at the protein and carbs in that...


2.   Soaked my Hornwood, as Jim said it sank straight away which is good...




3.   Washed the rocks and laid them out in a tray...looking good so far...








4.   Protected my wife's new dining room table and moved it to one side...






5.   Laid out lots of stuff on it...





6.   Got sidetracked and started messing about with the lights...wow they are bright...think I'm going to try two different tubes like the ones in the picture...trouble is they are too short so they will be going back...not sure if Eheim have made them an unusual length so I can only replace them with their tubes...








7.   I am mega impressed with the quality of the design and the materials used...the reflectors are awesome...










8.   Took some photos of the tank with the backing on...








9.   More photos with the lights switched on...




10.   Is that the time already...



I'm hungry again...time to make some soup, enough to last me three days ish...




11.   Started prepping the filters, washing and filling the different media for them...I got my old Eheim Professional 2 Filter out of a cupboard in the garage...it was like meeting an old friend...






12.   Took lot's of photos of the new filter...spent ages reading the destructions...









I am impressed again by the amount of media there is for the filter...



13.   Using some Oase Bio Kick-start in both filters...it's German so it must be good...works well on my pond filters anyway...




14.   Soups ready...time for a break...



15.   Spent ages fitting the pipework and messing about with the filters...it was a bit of a struggle to get four lot's of 16/22mm pipework down the dry weir and through the hole...got it all in finally...then found out I couldn't get the plugs for the lights through the hole Doh! So I had to take the plugs off, push the wires through then refit the plugs...bit of a palarva but it's done now...








16.   Look at the time...I think it's time for bed...



Bit of a mess...




17.   Then I thought I'll just upload all my photos on to Photobucket and update the journal...Photos are taking ages to upload and I can't go to bed until they are all up so I can add them to the journal...why can't I just load them from my hard drive? Anyone got any tips on how to do this...


18.   Still waiting yawn...01:44 hours


19.   I'm feeling hungry again...


20.   Photos done...Oooh it's late...never mind no work in the morning...I can have a lie in until about 7am...then get cracking with the substrate and the hardscape...


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## REDSTEVEO

Aaaarghhh...look at the time...time to get up...

Updates later...


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## James D

Almost there mate, the next step should be interesting!


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## REDSTEVEO

Tell me about it...quite excited but also a bit nervous...have to get it right this time...


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## REDSTEVEO

Well all I can say is that was quite an experience! The bad news is things didn't go as originally planned...no where near in fact...

It turns out the wood was too big and so were some of the stones, others were too small so I couldn't get the balance right between the two. So sadly the wood is going back tomorrow with some of the stones. I finished up with two bags of Amazonia Soil and one bag of Amazonia powder left over so that is going back, let's hope Jim's as good as his word I have got two small bags of Sarawak sand which I need to swap for La Planta sand also, the La Planta is a better contrast to the aqua soil and powder.

The good news is that there is water in the aquarium, both filters are up and running, the Co2 is connected and the lights are in position. All my substrate is in place with a 30cm high hillock interspersed with Mountain Stones to the left of the dry weir and a long slope going from left to right in front of the weir with more stones dotted about up to the edge of the sand. It looks sort of okay-ish, but it is definitely not what I had originally planned or imagined it to be. I have had to have a bit of a rethink on how this is going to look and will be looking for some smaller pieces of wood and revising my plant list slightly.

I also made a few schoolboy errors... I forgot to spray the top layer of Amazonia powder...so when I started filling the tank quite a lot floated to the surface so I finished up netting it and dropping it back in where it was needed...but by this time it was too late...it made a bit of a mess of my sand though so a bit of siphoning off to do tomorrow. I can see the sand is going to take some looking after...it's the first time I have worked with it and still not sure if I like it or not.

I am trying to stay positive and think it will look brilliant once the plants are in and they have softened the scape up a bit...

One thing I can say for definite, there is more to aquascaping than just throwing money at it, it is an art form and takes time and patience so hats off to all those brilliant scapers like Iain Sutherland out there...

That's it for now...pictures and update to follow...

Cheers.


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## REDSTEVEO

Well in the cold light of a new day I have just been downstairs to check on everything...the good news is that tank has still got water in it Also the 30cm hillock is still in place and all the rocks are still where they are supposed to be...one other thing from yesterday I learned was you can never have too many substrate supports, it its a bit fiddly but worth the effort...

Water is pretty clear, no ferts added at this stage and no Co2 pumping in because I have not got any plants or livestock in it yet, and there won't be any for a while...just waiting for the expected Ammonia Spike and the huge water changes every few days until it stabilises. 

Off to TGM later to take stuff back and order my plants for a few weeks time.

Waiting for the battery on my camera to charge before uploading more pictures...


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## Iain Sutherland

All sounding good, look forward to seeing some pics.

Your right about substrate supports.... Never too many! 
Setting up the hardscape is soo important, it's well worth taking time, even weeks, adjust it a little each day until your happy and really think about how the flow will work, how easy it will be to maintain, how stable it will be long term etc....  Having a difficult layout just means maintenance is a chore and your less inclined to do it.
It is the foundation after all.
My first tanks were shockers and I hated cleaning them!

What are the plans for plant list?


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## Greenfinger2

Hi Redstevo, This is the method i use when setting up the hardscape Its a lot less trouble than doing it in the tank Just cut up a cardboard box to the size of your tank put some sand in off you go. When you have the hardscape the way you want it. Then take pics and replace the hardscape into the tank  
One pic


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## REDSTEVEO

Cheers Iain, I will definitely try to take that advice on board! 

Just got back from TGM and Jim was as good as his word, he gave me a full refund for everything I brought back that wasn't used, so thanks Jim I appreciate it very much.

I still can't post any pics just yet because I left my battery charger at TGM last week and the battery is totally flat at the moment, its on charge now so should be okay by tonight.

I took the huge pieces of Hornwood back and picked up some very nice small bits which will be much better suited and keep everything in the right perspective...If I had used the pieces I originally had there would be no space left for planting which kind of defeats the object...

Plant List so far is...

6 x pots of Micranthum Monte Carlo all around the hillock between the rock and wood.
6 x pots of Staurogyne running down the hillock from left to right and around the base of the hillock.
6 x pots of Mini / Dwarf Elocharis Acicularis  along the front from left to right.
6 x pots of Alternanthera Reineckii around the centre.
1 x Hygrophilia Corymbosa XL to the right of the dry weir.
3 x pots of Hygrophilia Corymbosa compact in front the XL.
Lots of Fissidens Moss on the bit of wood.

When I get time I'll try and draw a plan and post it up...

Any comments or suggestions on alternative plants welcome...bearing in mind I am intending to put Blue Diamond discus in the setup...thanks...


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## REDSTEVEO

Well all in all its a been a bit of a weekend...sorry there has been no update or pics...I had the small matter of dealing with a !"£$%^g massive wasps nest the size of a very large beach ball up in the rafters in the garage. Got attacked on Friday night when I went in to the garage and switched the light on to look for something in a cupboard as you do First only one or two and I thought hmm that's unusual, two minute later I was sprinting 200 yards up the road to get away from them

So being a weekend I couldn't get hold of anyone to come and sort it out so I sort of did it myself-ish...so last night I zapped them with something from a local store which led to another sprint to the end of our road and back! This morning when I eventually plucked up the courage to open the garage door it was like something out of a horror movie. Needless to say it took me six hours to empty the garage and clean up the mess, zillions of dead wasps everywhere it was no fun I can tell you.

So showered and changed before going off to visit my grandson for a few hours..he's absolutely gorgeous

Here are the pictures that I couldn't upload earlier...

Some of the Amazonia substrates...





The Penac (P) and Penac (W)



Crushing up lots of bits of Lava Rock to help bolster up my hillock, I added layers of this and added Aquasoil mixed with the Powersand Special and filled in with Amazonia Powder as I went along, slotting in substrate supports where necessary...





Adding Penac (P) as I went...



This was the first thing in the tank...





Getting the base layer of Powersand in and working out how big an area I want for the planted area and where the Sarawak and La Plata sand is going to go...



This is a mix of Sarawak and La Plata sand...I am not convinced about the sandy area but my wife said she would like to see some area with sand in so I aim to try and please...but I have decided I like the La Plata sand better because it is brighter, not as red as the Sarawak...



Sand in place and a dusting of Penac (P) over the Powersand before adding the Amazonia Aquasoil...



This picture is deceptive because of the angle it was taken from...it looks like there is hardly any planting area and more sand but it isn't...



This is some of the rock and wood I planned to work with...but as already mentioned all the wood was too big and all of it went back to TGM for a full refund thanks to Jim...



Again another poor photograph from above this time...I only have a Canon Cybershot and photography is not my forte...you can see the powder is still dry...school boy error as mentioned earlier...



The tank is filled and looking rather dark...



Twenty four hours later mess all cleaned up...no one would know I'd been there...



Almost done...



Nice shiny Black smoked glass lids on...nice...





Got back tonight and switched one of the lights on to see what the water was like because it was pretty milky this morning, big bacteria bloom...its a bit clearer tonight...


The wood used here is Hornwood again but I used much smaller pieces this time and these positions are not the final positions...there will be some adjustments when the plants go in and I fix the Fissidens into place...



Thought I'd do a quick Ammonia check...through the roof as expected...completely off the scale in fact...5.0mg/l is a sort of dark green colour on the scale, this sample has gone a marine aqua blue but I was expecting this...almost would have been disappointed if it didn't happen...



So that's why the big water changes start over the next week or so..no plants or live stock going in until everything stabilises...

To sum up at this stage I'm sort of happy with it ish but somehow dissapointed that it didn't turn out how I had imagined it, I finished up working with what I had and sort of went with the flow..

'The Full Monty' it isn't...at least not yet...maybe once the plants are in...I might be looking for a name change...

More to come in the next few days...

More soup anyone...?


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## Martin in Holland

I like this photo way of story telling  keep it up


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## Edvet

There will be spillage from the Amazonia on to the sand, do you have any plan to combat that? Rummaging fishes will toss it around, working and planting will disturb it. If your plan is to lock it with plants would there be any possibility to heighten the border between the Amazonia and the sand at least till the plants have grown in, alternatively i've seen people using a "rockwall" to separate the two.


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## REDSTEVEO

Hi Edvet, I have used substrate supports cut into pieces which overlap each other between the Amazonia and the Sand I will be planting all along the border between the two substrates. I won't be adding any fish until the plants are established and the border is indistinguishable, but I do take your point about the inevitability of the Amazonia creeping on to the sand.

If it becomes too much of a pain I will remove the sand and add more ADA Powersand, Amazonia soil and plant it instead, which I would rather have done in the first place, but I thought I would try it...[DOUBLEPOST=1407146873][/DOUBLEPOST]





Martin in China said:


> I like this photo way of story telling  keep it up



Martin,

Glad you like it...it is hard work but it is also fun


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## REDSTEVEO

Hi all,

I had an interesting conversation with a guy named Ryan from Charterhouse Aquatics. We were talking about the Eheim Daylight 54 Watt tubes that came with the Eheim Incpiria 400 litre aquarium. I bought the optional additional light unit so I have four of these over the aquarium. They are a very crisp sharp white and I thought they would have a very high kelvin rating, but apparently they are only 6500k. The length of these tubes shows as 1149mm and I thought that maybe only Eheim provide these but this isn't the case.

Ryan told me about the Guisemann Aqua-flora 54 watt T5 tubes which are the same length. I am thinking of either buying two of these or two of the Eheim Plant Gro tubes which are only 4500k rating. I want a variation in the lighting with a more red and blue spectrum for highlighting the green of the plants (when I get them) and the Blue Diamond Discus fish.

Any thoughts...?


----------



## James O

Well the kelvin rating doesn't tell you much about the spectrum of light the tubes produce.  You'd need to see a full nm colour breakdown for each tube.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Yes I know, but if the kelvin rating had been 10,000 or even 12,000 this was what I used to have when I kept marines and far too strong for plants in a freshwater tank..


----------



## Iain Sutherland

the giesemann powerchrome midday have a good rendition for plants


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Incidentally I also had a conversation with Ryan from Charterhouse Aquatics on the subject of Ammonia, as we all know the ADA Amazonia leaches or produces a lot of Ammonia over the first few weeks and the level is off the scale at the moment. Ryan was suggesting that as long as there are no plants or livestock in the aquarium I shouldn't be in too much of a rush to start doing massive water changes just yet, just let the bacteria build up in the filters and let them do the work of converting the ammonia into nitrite and then into nitrate (if I have got that the right way around)  

Any views...

Ceg?


----------



## ceg4048

Too much media in the filter. Way too much. Flow will suffer.

You need to stop using test kits. I can see that the mind control programming has already begun.

I always do water changes because it helps to clarify the water of all the junk and debris, biofilm on the glass and so forth, but that's up to you. Ammonia kills bacteria so I see no profit in allowing the concentrations to build.

Cheers,


----------



## REDSTEVEO

ceg4048 said:


> Too much media in the filter. Way too much. Flow will suffer.
> 
> You need to stop using test kits. I can see that the mind control programming has already begun.
> 
> I always do water changes because it helps to clarify the water of all the junk and debris, biofilm on the glass and so forth, but that's up to you. Ammonia kills bacteria so I see no profit in allowing the concentrations to build.
> 
> Cheers,



Hi Ceg,

After reading and digesting all your previous articles on dry Ferts etc I stopped using testing kits years ago. Once the tank is established it is easy to tell if everything is fine just by using the eye, if the fish are healthy and eating well and the plants are growing with no algae problems then no worries.

The only reason I'm using an Ammonia test kit is so that I can tell when the levels have dropped to a safe enough level to start the planting or adding any livestock. I am pretty sure any fish would not survive the Ammonia soup I have got at the moment.

Water is crystal clear now...

Cheers,
Steve.[DOUBLEPOST=1407272152][/DOUBLEPOST]





Iain Sutherland said:


> the giesemann powerchrome midday have a good rendition for plants



I am looking at these now as an alternative to the Eheim Tubes..


----------



## ceg4048

You don't need to use any test kit to determine when to plant. You should have planted immediately. Ammonia test kits are just as flawed as NO3 test kits so you really have no idea what the ammonia values are anyway. Plant, do your water changes and wait 6-8 weeks before adding fauna. This then becomes automatic.

Cheers,


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi all,

Just a few photo updates following some water changes and stuff...


Water still a bit cloudy with a sort of brown tinge to it...





Testing the Co2 which is being pumped in from the Eheim 2 Professional Filter via an inline diffuser



Not sure if this will cause my Discus some problems with it being pumped in this fine...



During a large water change...



Looking a lot clearer today...





Ammonia levels dropping, will check again tonight to see what they are...

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Its beginning to grow on me...but I am waiting a bit longer till I know for definite...

Got plants on order from TGM...Been looking at lots, and I mean lots of Discus websites...


----------



## Lindy

I would have liked to have seen your original wood as, to me, the wood seems too small and will quickly be hidden by plants.


----------



## Edvet

(lol if you take one l away it get's a whole different meaning)


----------



## REDSTEVEO

ldcgroomer said:


> I would have liked to have seen your original wood as, to me, the wood seems too small and will quickly be hidden by plants.



Hi Edvet...the wood was huge...I overestimated the sizes originally, if I had put even half of it in and the rocks I had there would have been no room left fro planting and not much swimming space for the fish...

I intend to only plant low growing grass and Monte Carlo on and around the hillock with the other plants to the left. I am trying to find time to do a diagram which I'll post later...

A few big water changes done...Ammonia 0.3mg/l at the moment...


----------



## limz_777

that wood on the right side look out of place


----------



## REDSTEVEO

limz_777 said:


> that wood on the right side look out of place



Hi there, yes you are absolutely right it does look out of place. To be honest all of them do, they are just in place until I start my planting in a few weeks time. I can adjust them once I have got the Fissidens Moss tied to them and the rest of the plants are in place.

Thanks,

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

REDSTEVEO said:


> Not sure if this will cause my Discus some problems with it being pumped in this fine...



Any views on the potential amount of Co2 with the discus?[/quote]


----------



## ceg4048

Steve,
        Discus are the same as any other fish. The larger the fish the more affected they are by hypercapnia. You just have to be careful when you add CO2. Start with very low light so that you can use very low CO2 and then work your way up.

Cheers,


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Cheers Clive,

Sounds like good advice so will do. A period of gentle acclimatisation and adjustment...


----------



## LocustDemon

Just read the whole post. Can't wait to see this planted and with livestock. 
The tank is gorgeous and so clean!! Awesome setup  
Thanks for the awesome read! 
Matt.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hello Matt,

Wow thanks for the great comments, I am so glad you liked it, I try to keep it interesting and factual but light hearted at the same time...

Watch out for up dates to follow over the next few weeks...

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

No updates for a while sorry...but here is something to look forward to for now...



These are the fish I am planning to put in this setup...



Planting is going to be different than that in the photo...see early on in the journal for the plant list...

Steve


----------



## Greenfinger2

Hi Red, Wow Now i can see what you have in mind  That is going to look wonderful in your tank


----------



## Martin in Holland

If you also want to get some Tetras or other smaller fish like that in your tank I would suggest to get those first, let them grow a bit larger before adding Discus. All I know (from my brother who keeps Discus for years) is that they like it hot (28-30 Celcius) and some plants we often use don't like it that hot, so watch out that you don't end up with melting plants.


----------



## flygja

Discus do alright in cooler waters too (the Amazon rivers they come from drops to 24-26'C at night). They just won't have the high metabolism which causes them to grow into 12 inch platters.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Greenfinger2 said:


> Hi Red, Wow Now i can see what you have in mind  That is going to look wonderful in your tank



Thanks I hope so too...[DOUBLEPOST=1408008522][/DOUBLEPOST]





Martin in China said:


> If you also want to get some Tetras or other smaller fish like that in your tank I would suggest to get those first, let them grow a bit larger before adding Discus. All I know (from my brother who keeps Discus for years) is that they like it hot (28-30 Celcius) and some plants we often use don't like it that hot, so watch out that you don't end up with melting plants.



Hi Martin, I agree, I have got my eye on some Rummy nose Tetras like the ones in the picture, and some dwarf pearl neon's, ottocinclus, and that's it. Plants are not going to be too high I want to keep the free swimming space for the discus to shoal nicely...[DOUBLEPOST=1408008614][/DOUBLEPOST]





flygja said:


> Discus do alright in cooler waters too (the Amazon rivers they come from drops to 24-26'C at night). They just won't have the high metabolism which causes them to grow into 12 inch platters.



Hi you sound like you have a lot of experience - knowledge of discus...standby for some questions later on...

Thanks...


----------



## flygja

Actually I don't have that much knowledge and experience with discus. I've just kept one alive for a few years now (originally had 4 but 2 died from bullying, then the aggressor also died) and provided you don't intend to grow them into huge platters, you're usually fine. They do fine in CO2 but they won't thrive wonderfully, if that makes sense. In fact, when I bought them it was about 3.5 inches. Now, about 2 years later, it's only grown an inch to 4.5 inches. I feed them with frozen bloodworms once a day. 






I will of course help you in any way I can.


----------



## Timms2011

That is one beautiful Fish!


----------



## flygja

Thanks all


----------



## Vazkez

Hi there ;]

This thread remains me lots of things happening in my home 

Good one


----------



## Brian Murphy

Looking good, like the humour throughout. I would have used longer pieces of wood with maybe moss and trident on them.  I dont understand your reasons for not planting straight away before you filled the tank with water.  Even your mate Jim does that in his videos.


----------



## James Flexton

Brian Murphy said:


> Looking good, like the humour throughout. I would have used longer pieces of wood with maybe moss and trident on them.  I dont understand your reasons for not planting straight away before you filled the tank with water.  Even your mate Jim does that in his videos.



To be fair I just bought a load of substrate from TGM for a new setup and Jim advised to hold off on planting for 3 weeks 70% water change a week until week 3 to get the ammonia down. He said he uses this method when he's not being filmed and not under pressure to chuck it all together quickly. He said he usually loses a fair percentage of plants when he fills straight away and then replaces them later. Which is best avoided if possible for obvious financial reasons. 

Fantastic journal. I'm setting my new tank up tomorrow with Ada substrate and eheim 350t etc. similar setup to you just smaller. I've subscribed. Keep up the good work. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Vazkez said:


> Hi there ;]
> 
> This thread remains me lots of things happening in my home
> 
> Good one



What? Are you knocking walls down as well ha ha

Well you have probably all been wondering what's been going on with no new updates for two weeks

Simple answer...been away on holiday but didn't want to announce it to the whole world

Five days in Hong Kong, two days in Bangkok and seven days in Koh Samui Thailand...Big anniversary and thought my wife deserved some spoiling after putting up with me for all these years...Only got back last night after fifteen hours of flights and no luggage at Manchester Airport Hopefully off to collect it in a minute if I get the phone call to say it has arrived...

Got some interesting photographs from Tung Choi Street in Mong Kok in Kowloon...lots of photos and updates to come...

Ammonia levels in the tank this morning absolute zero, no algae...ready to rock and roll with the planting next weekend!!

Steve



Brian Murphy said:


> Looking good, like the humour throughout. I would have used longer pieces of wood with maybe moss and trident on them.  I dont understand your reasons for not planting straight away before you filled the tank with water.  Even your mate Jim does that in his videos.



Hi Brian,

Latest post should explain why no planting done yet...didn't want to do it, rush it and then come back to a soup of mushy plants and algae...hope that explains everything...updates to come soon...


----------



## Edvet

REDSTEVEO said:


> deserved some spoiling after putting up with me for all these years


 So you took her to fishshops for 7 days and to fish biotopes for the next seven... Wise, very wise.....


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Like I said, she is very patient with me...she did some shopping around Temple Street Market while I looked along 'Tung Choi Street' otherwise known as Fish Street, discus galore and plants, mosses etc at 30 Hong Kong Dollars per piece, so roughly £2.50, it was like being a kid in sweet shop

If I could I would have brought a suitcase full back with me....


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Just a few photos of the mosses on sale in Tung Choi Street Mong Kok Kowloon side...

Ranging from £2.50  a piece









Some bits and bobs I bought myself for next to nothing...



Disappointing to see these discus in small bags on hooks, prices ranging from about 50 dollars upwards...£4.50





Some pretty mean aquascaping going on in some of the shops with plants in abundance...







Some of the rock they are using...









 jealous..

Back to work next week...plants will ready for next weekend...


----------



## Edvet

coated rocks?..............


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Yes according to the note but I am not convinced...I think its just a gimmick...the stones do look sort of natural-ish but they can be shaped or hollowed out to allow plant substrate to be inserted...


----------



## ~firefly~

Great journal! I've enjoyed reading this.


----------



## LocustDemon

Amazing, thanks for sharing that with us!  I find it astonishing at how cheap things are there compared to here! Quantity, quality, selection. It's like dreamland!


----------



## REDSTEVEO

LocustDemon said:


> Amazing, thanks for sharing that with us!  I find it astonishing at how cheap things are there compared to here! Quantity, quality, selection. It's like dreamland!



You are not wrong! I asked one of the guys in one of the shops if they could deliver in bulk to the UK but it all seemed a bit complicated...it hasn't stopped me thinking about it though!


----------



## LocustDemon

EBay gift!! Haha. You just need somebody who's good with English and you'll sort it.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

I'm interested, can you expand...


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Unpacked my goodies from Hong Kong last night...hopefully putting them to good use in a week or two...

Decided to take Iain Sutherland's advice and postpone the planting until I have played around with the hardscape a bit more...I will only get one chance to get this right...it will be too late once its planted...

This will involve draining the tank, a large amount of which will be into a 200 litre drum kept alongside the tank so I can keep the filters running during this process...

I am going to rejig the sand arrangement to increase the planting area and try a rock wall using Seyria stone...I took some of it to a stone cutter yesterday...I am intending to use aquarium silicone to glue the pieces to the back wall to the left of the dry weir...then plant mosses and smaller plants into the rock wall...

Any alternative suggestions to using aquarium silicone appreciated...

Thanks,

Steve.


----------



## Greenfinger2

Hi Redsteveo, Wow the plants are cheap and in fab condition  That Tree scape that you posted a photo of. What a stunner  Thank you for sharing .Glad you and the wife had a great trip.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Cheers Greenfinger2, it was a great trip...plants are ridiculously cheap...I was over there twenty odd years ago and the prices were the same then. I had a marine tank at the time and they were selling Emperor Tangs for 15 Hong Kong Dollars which at the time equated to £1.00 sterling

Why....do we have to pay so much over here


----------



## LocustDemon

Rock wall sounds awesome! I wanted to try the mesh with lava rock tied to it then plant., maybe in the future! 
EBay gift is basically what they would write on the packaging. It's mainly for customs if you've ever bought anything from China or far away. I suppose you would have to look at how long the post usually takes to get from them to you as the plants are obviously perishable.


----------



## Andy Thurston

LocustDemon said:


> Rock wall sounds awesome! I wanted to try the mesh with lava rock tied to it then plant., maybe in the future!
> EBay gift is basically what they would write on the packaging. It's mainly for customs if you've ever bought anything from China or far away. I suppose you would have to look at how long the post usually takes to get from them to you as the plants are obviously perishable.


Doesnt always work
I once got charged £80 on a guitar which cost £350 and that was marked as an ebay gift


----------



## LocustDemon

Yeah it's a chance you have to take I suppose, just wondering what import fees on plants would be? I'd have a read up, might be in fact illegal to post plants from abroad?


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Maybe you need a CITES License or something like that...

http://www.fws.gov/international/cites/



LocustDemon said:


> Rock wall sounds awesome! I wanted to try the mesh with lava rock tied to it then plant., maybe in the future!
> EBay gift is basically what they would write on the packaging. It's mainly for customs if you've ever bought anything from China or far away. I suppose you would have to look at how long the post usually takes to get from them to you as the plants are obviously perishable.



I did this once before using Plastic eggshell crating, the type you see in ceilings covering fluorescent lighting, it worked great..did a journal on it a few years back...

Can't remember what it was called at present...but this time I am looking for something a bit more natural and longer lasting...

Cheers

Just found it in case you are interested in the future...

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/a-shady-glen-the-recovery-photographs.11352/


----------



## LocustDemon

That's where I got the idea from,  I was linked to your journal in mine because of the corner tank. Looked spot on!! Have a look at the tank! Let me know what you think! And let me know if you do anything on the plant front! 
Matt.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Have you got a link to it...


----------



## LocustDemon

Sorry. http://www.ukaps.org/forum/index.php?threads/33993/


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Thanks...I will have a look and let you know...
Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Well...EPIC FAIL Today...

As mentioned earlier I decided this afternoon I was going to drain the tank and build my rock wall...that was about 2pm this afternoon, I got all my bits of rock ready, went out and got the glue gun etc...its now 8.15pm and I have filled the tank back up and got the filters back working...that's the good news...bad news is no rock wall...

Why? Because my great idea of draining 200 litres of water into a barrel and connecting up the filters into the barrel didn't work...why is it that despite having hundreds of feet of hose lying around and millions of connectors I could not get an airtight seal to siphon the water from the filters into the barrel...airlocks left right and centre, and that much pipework lying around the living room it looked like spaghetti junction... Grrrr absolutely a complete waste of time, almost knackered one of the filters, twice I nearly flooded the place, her indoors wasn't best pleased with all the noise and my shimfing...

Has anyone else taken three inches of skin off their knuckles trying to force connectors into pipes that are too small or too big? (even after heating up the pipes in boiling water) I have got that many plasters on my fingers I look like I ran my fingers over with the lawnmower!! Then to top it all I sat down for tea and proceeded to grab hold of the pan handle of the pan of food my wife had just removed from the oven that had been on £$%&*g thermonuclear mark £$%^&*g 10 zillion aaaarghhh... 

If I can pluck up the courage I might have another go tomorrow...trouble is I just know I will finish up having to completely disconnect and remove the filters out of the cupboard place them next to the barrel and minimise the pipework...bit of a kerfuffle but I can't see any other way...

It's either that or no rock wall 

Laters...I'm off to bed


----------



## Wendal_spanswick

It probably doesn't make you feel any better today but it'll be worth it in the end mate. That's the good thing about the journals as you show the ups and the downs. Everyone can see what you go through to get to the finished article.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

You're right it doesn't make me feel any better today...but...

I have dreamed up a cunning plan...I think...

I am going to put a large container inside the tank and just drop the outlet and inlet pipes into that from both filters...then drain the tank to the bottom and hopefully the this will prevent me from having to disconnect and remove everything...

Update tomorrow...


----------



## Martin in Holland

Next time when you are in Hong Kong, come over to Shenzhen and I will show you a place were you can find even cheaper stuff....you could say where even the HK shop go to get it.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Great, Thanks Martin...any details, links etc...how can we get it over here? Is it practically possible and legal to post plants and stuff from China / Hong Kong to the UK, do they need a special license or something...


----------



## Martin in Holland

Plants will be a bit tricky, but there seem to be some logistic companies that can take care of it. Other things are easy, I even sent some glass Lily pipes to Holland ones by TNT (not cheap though, but still a lot cheaper than buying in Holland).
Many things I buy here are bought on a Chinese website called Taobao.com...it's in Chinese of course so I always have to ask my wife to assist.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Thanks Martin I will have look at the website when I get chance...do they have pictures...


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Wendal_spanswick said:


> It probably doesn't make you feel any better today but it'll be worth it in the end mate. That's the good thing about the journals as you show the ups and the downs. Everyone can see what you go through to get to the finished article.



Well today is another day...and guess what another EPIC FAIL Can someone remind me why we do this again...is it to avoid stress, chill out and relax...err not so far it isn't...

Drained the tank okay...good start...connected everything up externally...so far so good...

Some of the tank water stored...



Tank drained...



Big container with more water to be filtered while the job gets done...



Layout all my rock and prepared the glue gun...steady now...let's not get carried away...





Ready steady go...



Got cracking, going great guns, things are looking good so far...what could go wrong??



Two hours later job done...or so I thought...



Started filling the tank and no sooner had the water reached the level where I'd glued the rock wall to the glass I heard a plunk followed by another and another...the glue which had fixed the rock to the wall did a great job, it seemed to be fixed solid...until it got wet...

Bits of glue off the rock and the back wall...Should have guessed..if it ain't natural, it doesn't go in...end of...





Oh b£$%^&*x!!

So with regret I decided to be on the safe side and dismantle the rest... Rather that than a piece to fall down and hit the glass

So another day wasted...and no rock wall, at least not what I'd planned...

I did manage to lodge firmly in place some of the rock and then fixed the Hornwood in and around it so it does look a bit different...

Jim at TGM told me my plants were in yesterday but now I have messed about with it and changed so much water I am going to have to wait another week at least for the parameters to settle down again..

Then some good news...or so I thought...the two new Giesemann Powerchrome bulbs I ordered yesterday from Charterhouse Aquatics arrived just after lunchtime...hooray...until I unpacked them...boohoo they were both smashed to bits inside the packaging.







I have to say whoever wrapped them at Charterhouse Aquatics did a damn fine job, they were superbly packaged, double wrapped on the inside and out, so whichever £$%^&*g neanderthal from the courier company carried them must have driven over them or something to smash them...

So what next...well I have decided I am not going to touch anything for a week at least, and I am certainly not going to make anymore attempts at building a rock wall...

In case anyone is interested I have a few things going spare...for example...

A ton of rock in different shapes and sizes...
One Glue gun used only once...
About 50 spare glue sticks...
A couple of gallons of 'Fixol' used for sticking backing on aquariums...
A few hundred metres of pipework in various lengths...

Updates to follow...

Its beer and curry time....

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## The_Iceman

Oh my.... Steve 

But keep smiling! I'm pretty sure that the final result will be even better after all those obstacles! 

Cheers, 
Chris


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Chris,

Thanks for the kind words of encouragement...boy they are needed...

Just had a shower going out to get some food, feeling a bit better...ish

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## Martin in Holland

These things happen sometimes...better now than when you got water, plants and fish in...rethink, regroup and start over, but most of all, take it easy, this is a hobby and the world isn't ending.
Epoxy glue will work better but it needs to cure for a longer time.

And...yes, they do have pictures on Taobao.com. I really buy almost anything from that website, also my EI chemicals.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi Martin, you are absolutely right...I think Epoxy glue is called Araldite over here where you mix two substances, a glue and a hardener together.

I am always dubious about using stuff like this in aquariums...but thanks for the tip...

I looked at the Taobao.com website and used a Google engine to translate the page...This is what I found...

http://translate.google.co.uk/trans...sv&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=nts

Couldn't see any aquarium products though...


----------



## Greenfinger2

Hi Steve, Sorry to hear about your downs mate Hope the hand is better " I have done the pan handle thing %52"2 Hot "
And thank god the rock did not break the glass  And the tubes   After all of that i would have a couple of cold beers too
As to Araldite i have used it before to glue slate together " The fast setting one" Works a treat  And has done no harm to fish shrimp or plants
Hope things go smoothly from now on mate


----------



## Martin in Holland

Try this "水族馆" or just "CO2"....you will be amazed (http://tw.taobao.com/search/search....=on&_ksTS=1410015709812_229&callback=jsonp230  ..... is what I found)


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi Martin, not had chance to look properly yet...will let you know when I have...

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Okay all, I finished messing about with the hardscape, this is as good as I am going to get it for now...

After the two failed attempts at building a rock wall...





The scape actually looks better than these photos show it to be...there is much more perspective when you see it for real...



So, plants are ordered for pick up on Thursday and the planting begins on Friday...

This is the bit I have been waiting for...let's hope it goes more smoothly than doing the hardscape...


----------



## LocustDemon

Looks great. I'm sure it will do mate, hardscape is always different,  but plants you've worked with all the time, and you have a planting/care regime already in your mind from previous scapes. 
Can't wait to see it. 
Matt.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Cheers Matt, I can't wait either, its like waiting for Christmas when you were a kid, I go to sleep thinking about it and wake up thinking about it...


----------



## LocustDemon

I find it most exciting when I get home from work and see how much things have grown in 24hours, unreal! I went away to Spain on Friday morning and got at 1am last night. Her indoors has done a wonderful job looking after the tank! Insane growth. Needless to say I couldn't stop thinking about the tank haha. 
Why haven't you recreated the jewel 190 wall on the chicken wire? That worked really well and there was no chance of it falling off. Could always cut the wire on angles if you didn't want a straight wall. And even attach more the the front(thicker) but still as safe. 
Matt.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Yeah me too...

Juwel 190 been there done that, seen the video and got the T-Shirt..

Trying to keep it natural this time around...maybe the Full Monty version 2 in a few years time

Interesting picture here from the Grand Prix on Sunday...didn't Hamilton do well



Steve...


----------



## LocustDemon

Alrighty! 
You should have uploaded this picture earlier! Definitely gives you perspective now! Do love your tank though... Makes me sad not to have a rectangular tank anymore 

Roll on Friday anyway!! You already know how your planting it or you going to lay it all out when you get them? 
Matt.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi, I didn't think anyone would be interested in the Grand Prix

I have drawn a planting diagram using MS Word 2013 but struggling to work out how to get it to appear here...


----------



## LocustDemon

Screen shot the screen, paste in paint and crop accordingly. Post as a photo like you normally would.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Thanks I'll have ago at that now...my drawing is pretty naff but I think you will get the general idea...


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Tried and posted it but it appeared so small I deleted it again...back to the drawing board...literally...


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Following Vroom Vrooms advice in his thread here goes...

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk57/REDSTEVEO/PlantMap3_zpsc969f1e7.png~original

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk57/REDSTEVEO/PlantMap3_zpsc969f1e7pngoriginal_zps443f5345.png~original


----------



## LocustDemon

I'll message you.


----------



## REDSTEVEO




----------



## LocustDemon

Looks like it's going to be awesome  
Thought if just post it to save the hassle. Next time instead of saving the photo as a jpeg save it as a..png file. It's a lot higher quality and will resize in the right resolution.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hey...this is awesome...thanks very much for your help. I don't know what you did but it worked...


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi All,

I finished work early today and shot off to the Green Machine to pick up my plants... Had a good chat with Jim as usual, then spent ages talking to Gaz who made a few really good suggestions re the planting layout, he had some brilliant ideas. So tomorrow the planting begins...but with a few surprises in store from what was originally planned...

Got a 4am start for work in the morning so I can get away by lunchtime...

Watch out for updates either late Friday night or on Saturday...

Thanks,

Steve.


----------



## LocustDemon

exciting times! I also spoke to gaz and he did the same! Knows a lot that guy, and he's not even an aquatic lover! I pick up my shrimp tomorrow  keep us updated and good luck!


----------



## REDSTEVEO

You are right he is more into snakes and reptiles...but he has a natural eye for detail when it comes to layouts....

Where are you picking your shrimp up from?


----------



## LocustDemon

Place called Wharf Aquatics junction 28 on the m1, place called Pinxton. Amazing place! Roll on 11 am! What do you do for work?


----------



## Ady34

Sorry to hear of all the issues youve had Redstevo, it hasnt exactly been a relaxing experience, but it has served as an experience for you and others reading at least. One day soon youll be able to sit back and enjoy it, but beleive me when i say this....weve all been there and it can be extremely frustrating 
Epoxy putty is what the reefers use for holding rockwork together, 'milliput' is one brand. Personally i prefer free standing hardscape structures built from the aquarium base up, i think if the rocks fit together firmly without glue then that is more natural and gives a more natural look. If they are built from the aquarium base upwards there is less chance of collapse from subsidence also, for that reason id me more inclined to go with your original hardscape plans with some feature rocks and wood as removing all of your substrate now would certainly end in frustration.....a smashed tank and a very unhappy wife  Heavy rock backgrounds may also reduce flow efficiency and create dead spots, but with good attention to circulation this doesnt have to be a problem.
Good luck with the planting, look forward to some more happy updates 
Cheerio,
Ady.


----------



## LocustDemon

I'm tense.... Hope all is going well mate! Shrimpys are ace, there tds was nearly 500! Had to drip feed water to get it down to 100 haha! Let us know!


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi all,

Well after a 4am start at work this morning for the third time in a row this week, I have just worked out that I have had 15 hours sleep in the last 72 hours...

Despite being completely knackered when I got home at 1pm...I was still excited enough to get cracking with the planting...and I have to say I thought it went pretty well...intense, loads of concentration needed, but extremely therapeutic, almost cathartic, that finally I got round to doing the bit that I was looking forward to the most.

Five and a half hours later, the tank was drained planted and filled again, filters on lights refitted, and all the mess tidied up again. The biggest pain was filling the tank up five litres at a time from water bottle, using all the water I had drained from the tank.

Needless to say I am completely knackered now and too tired to be messing about uploading the photographs to photobucket so that I can post them into this journal...so I am off to bed now and the updates with photos will be up sometime this weekend...

Got a grandson to visit tomorrow and an interesting football match against Aston Villa at 5.30 on Saturday...

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## LocustDemon

That's refreshing news! Apart from the re-filling!! 
If you say your happy then it Must be pretty good! We're always very self critical! 
Look forward to the photo's! Sleeps overrated anyhow! Haha 
Matt.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Yeah I'll be happy when I get up in the morning and the water has cleared and there are not half the plants floating on the surface...

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Errrrr... bit of a lie in this morning...sorry no pictures to update with just yet, got too much on today...

But the good news is all the plants are still planted except for one bit of Monte Carlo floating around the tank.

I have got a few pots of One2Grow left of mini hair grass, some red dwarf altananthera reineckii, some Rotala Macranda and Monte Carlo I could let someone have cheap if they are local-ish and want to collect them...otherwise I might be ringing Jim at TGM to see if he will exchange them for something...

Photos still to come...


----------



## LocustDemon

Good to know! Same story on mine, shrimp haven't destroyed it so all is well! 
Can't really justify the five for some macrandra and monte carlo but I'm sure you'd shift it easily! 
Any more hardscape going in in the future or you done for now? 
Matt.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

There has been some additional hard scaping which is part of the surprise still to come...based on a suggestion from Gaz at the Green Machine


----------



## LocustDemon

I'd have rather you not even replied after saying your busy all day to not post pictures! 
Bahhhh!


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Patience is a virtue..my a$$...


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi all,

Sorry there has been no updates today or photos! The wife decided that she had loads of things planned for today which did not involve me loading my photos up to Photobucket so sorry to keep you waiting. The good news is, as i have just been telling LocustDemon, I have borrowed an all singing all dancing camera and just been practicing with it! Wow the difference in quality between my little Canon Cyber shot and this camera...well all I can say is the photos will be much better and you will get a much better idea of how it looks...and I have to say it does look rather good...

I will tray and get them up tonight or tomorrow...honest...

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Well here are a few photos from the planting process on Friday but taken with my Canon Cybershot so please excuse the quality...hopefully once I have sussed out the destructions on my sons camera I will be able to take some decent photographs and show you what it looks like two days after planting..enjoy for now...

Getting all my containers ready to drain the tank again...oh deep joy...



Laying out all my pots of plants from the Green Machine...



Dividing up the hair grass...



Got some of my spare Amazonia soil and powder on standby just in case...



Some internal cabinet photographs...got some more use out of my glue gun sticking these coat hook brackets on to the inside of the door to hang all my bits and pieces on...should have waited longer for the glue to set, they went a bit wonky...




I labelled all my plug sockets so I know which filter is which...




And my plug sockets for the lights and the timers...



Filters all nice and tidy with Co2 Kit all connected...



Water temperature 24 degrees after refilling...



Soon up to 28 degrees...



Planting equipment...



The 40 cm hillock but water a bit cloudy and lighting a bit naff...



Some earlier work...not looking good...had to start again...



Tank from end on right hand side...



Tank from end on left hand side...wait until you see the pictures taken using the other camera...



These last two photographs were taken with my son's camera...I hope they are a bit better but there are more to come soon..





Cheers,

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Errrrr I have borrowed this camera from my son...without the instructions...it is a Nikon AF - Nikkor 18-55mm, 1:3.5 - 5.6G with more functions than a NASA Space Shuttle...anyone know how to take pictures of close up stuff with mega clear quality...

There are ISO settings, White Balance, Auto, Fine, Raw, AF-F and lots of things I have not got a scooby doo about...

Any photo medics out there who can advise...

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## James O

If there's an image on the dial showing simplistic flowers use that (macro mode)  It will depend on the lens as well though

Tbh full auto with autofocus should let you get close enough


----------



## Andy Thurston

Which Nikon camera? The number is on the front right hand side just below the shutter release 
The lens has an auto focus switch on the side and theres another on the camera body switch these to man if the camera focuses on the glass
Turn the round knob on the top left to the small circle with a arrow in it, this if full auto without a flash. My nikon doesn't have a macro on the scene select switch


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Andy,

Its a Nikon D3200 DX SWM VR Aspherical if that is of any help...


----------



## Andy Thurston

D3200 was what i wanted to know. Dans just bought one of those but im not too sure exactly which buttons it has. Mine has a few more
If you just want to crack on and take photos use it in auto mode with the flash off and manual focus.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Well the sad thing is, just as I was getting somewhere with my son's camera the battery went flat and the charger was not in the bag with the camera...so I started messing about with the settings on the Sony Cybershot instead. Its amazing what you can find out when you put your mind to it.

These pictures may not be as good a quality as I will get from the Nikon but I hope you think they are better than what I have posted so far...





















http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk57/REDSTEVEO/DSC02346_zpsf4bdc71a.jpg~original


----------



## Martin in Holland

Starting to look great.....can't wait to see how it turns out after a few months.


----------



## LocustDemon

Looking absolutely awesome mate, very well executed! 
Can't wait to see that hillock when it fills out! Going to be something else!!


----------



## Greenfinger2

Hi RedSteveo, Looking good  When the plants grow and fill in the space.This is going to be stunning Well it is now.Cannot wait to see the scape in a couple of months


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Martin in China said:


> Starting to look great.....can't wait to see how it turns out after a few months.



Me too...got my eye on a shoal of about 20 Rummy Nosed Tetras and about 30 Cardinal Tetras...



LocustDemon said:


> Looking absolutely awesome mate, very well executed!
> Can't wait to see that hillock when it fills out! Going to be something else!!



I hope so, although i don't know about well executed, it was more of trial and error and go with the flow in the end...



Greenfinger2 said:


> Hi RedSteveo, Looking good  When the plants grow and fill in the space.This is going to be stunning Well it is now.Cannot wait to see the scape in a couple of months



I only planted it up on Friday and every day I see some development... a few roots extending here, a new leaf sprouting there...

I have only got a six hour photo period at the moment...the front light comes on at 1pm, this has got two 54 watt tubes in it, one is an Eheim bright white daylight, and the other is a nice blue/pink Giesemann Aqua-flora which shows of the red colours in the plants. This light stays on for a total of four hours.

At 2pm the rear light comes on which has the same tubes as the front one, but they are arranged so that the two Eheim tubes are next to each other. So the two white lights simulate the peak light period in the day. Both front and rear lights stay on together for an additional two hours before the front one switches off, leaving the rear light on for the last two hours of the six hour period.

On Sunday I added the cleaning crew...12 Japonica Amano shrimps and 5 Ottocinclus, so far they are doing a grand job...

More later,

Cheers for all your comments everyone,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Finally got my hands on the battery charger today for my son's camera, Nikon D3200, the battery is charging right now so should be ready for tomorrow and hopefully some good pictures.

Lights are still on a six hour photo period with pressurised C02 going in at about 70 bubbles per minute, working on a timer. Both drop checkers are a nice Lime Green colour.

Dry Ferts going in as follows:

1 x Teaspoon of KN03 3 x per week
Half a teaspoon of KH2P04 3 x per week
Half a teaspoon of CSM +B 2 x per week
Epsom salts as required

Keeping my fingers crossed, but so far no algae, but it is still early days...let's hope I haven't spoken too soon...


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Well...so far so good! Everything is still going according to plan...I am finally getting the hang of my son's camera thanks to some really helpful photo medics in the photography section

The plants are developing slowly, the Monte Carlos is starting to spread, the reds and greens are looking good...

I have taken some photographs and I am just sorting out the good from the bad and hopefully, resizing them if I can without blurring the images. Just waiting for them to finish uploading to Photobucket and I'll post them up later..

Thanks,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Well here are some photographs one week on post planting...hopefully they are not too bad.
I tried capturing some photos with the Amano shrimp in them also...

So far I have not added any any fish or livestock other than the five Ottocinclus, plus the twelve Amano shrimp...

Still thinking about the shoaling fish that would be best suited for this tank and layout...originally thinking of about twenty Rummy Nosed Tetras, and either twenty Cardinals or some Blue Cardinals. Probably add a couple of Panda Corys later when the plants are fully rooted.

Meanwhile hours later... still waiting for photos to upload...


----------



## REDSTEVEO

After almost losing the will to live waiting for the photos to upload to Photobucket I could not face the hassle of trying to change the size of them so I am posting them for now as they are...

In no particular order...





There is a shrimp there somewhere...



A full view of the hillock to the left of the tank...any suggestions on shoaling fish welcome...







The gap between the hillock and the rock feature to the right hand side...







The Rotala Macranda from 1 to Grow







I will leave it for a week now until there is more growth, then I'll post more pictures...


----------



## Andy Thurston

Why your pictures so small?


----------



## Vazkez

Very nice   

Looking good so far


----------



## Jason Blake

Nice work!

I hope I can acheive something as good.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Big clown said:


> Why your pictures so small?



Tried re-sizing them on Photobucket and they become blurred or fuzzy for some reason so I didn't bother especially after it took so much time to upload them...



Jason Blake said:


> Nice work!
> 
> I hope I can achieve something as good.



You will I'm sure, once you get the bug it becomes an obsession to create something unique...


----------



## Vinkenoog1977

REDSTEVEO said:


> Tried re-sizing them on Photobucket and they become blurred or fuzzy for some reason so I didn't bother especially after it took so much time to upload them...



Looks fine to me!


----------



## Andy Thurston

Even When i clicked the pic and looked on photobucket it looked pixleated but that is much clearer now


----------



## Edvet

I think rummy noses are the best schoolers in my book, cardinals school good too, but they need to be scared of something to stay schooled


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Vinkenoog1977 said:


> Looks fine to me!



Hey Vinkenkoog1977 please tell me how you did that. The picture looks much better that size, it gives you a real perspective of what it actually looks like. I will follow your advice on how to do it. Alternatively I don't mind if you do whatever you did with the rest of the pictures, but I would like to know how you did it anyway for the future...

Many thanks,

Steve.



Edvet said:


> I think rummy noses are the best schoolers in my book, cardinals school good too, but they need to be scared of something to stay schooled



Edvet I am inclined to agree with you on both counts...Rummy Nose Tetras do shoal well, I have seen Red Tailed Sharks with Cardinals and that makes them shoal well too...

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## tim

Looks awesome redstevo.


----------



## Vinkenoog1977

Hey Steve,

1. Upload pic to Photobucket
2. Go to page with uploaded pic
3. Click on the magnifying glass to enlarge the pic
4. Right click on image, and select "Save image location" (or words to that effect; my browsers are in Dutch LOL)
5. Click the image button on the UKAPS-forum page,right click and paste (should look something like this: http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk57/REDSTEVEO/005_zpsba8dc4d4.jpg~original)
6. That's it!


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi Vinkenoog1977,

I followed your directions and pasted this below. But from what I can see there is only the link, not the actual picture in the post?



Tried something slightly different and got the picture below...






And this...





And this...





Err I think I might have got the hang of it...





Spot the Tiger Shrimp any one...





Cooking on gas here...









I think this is probably enough for now, don't want to crash the site...


----------



## Vinkenoog1977

Review step 5; paste the link in the image box of UKAPS. 

Pics look great now!


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Sorry...I can't see for looking, I'll try again..the images I have posted seem to take ages to load and slows down the viewing experience...





Well I think that worked....


----------



## Vinkenoog1977

Photobucket is extremely SLOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWW.


----------



## Greenfinger2

Hi Red, Nice Scape healthy plants  And now fab photos


----------



## Brian Murphy

Pics look fab and nice health in the plants


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Greenfinger2 said:


> Hi Red, Nice Scape healthy plants  And now fab photos



Yes it took me some time to get my head around it...us folk from oop North especially at my age take a while...

Will wait now for some development...like fish going in next week before i take any more photos...

Might register with Flickr to see if that is any better at uploading the photos...

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Edvet said:


> I think rummy noses are the best schoolers in my book, cardinals school good too, but they need to be scared of something to stay schooled



Hi Edvet,

I have been doing some research on the Rummy Nose Tetras. Apparently there are three variations of this fish which most LFS call Rummy Nose tetras.

They are:

1.   Petitella Georgiae or False Rummy-nose tetra


 

2.   Hemigrammus Bleheri or Firehead Tetra - passed off as a Rummy Nose Tetra


 

3.   Hemigrammus Rhodostomus or true Rummy-nose tetra


 
Information found at: 
http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/hemigrammus-rhodostomus

The True Rummy Nose Tetra looks the best to me. Now I need to find somewhere that has got the genuine article and not something else...any ideas anyone?


----------



## Jason Blake

Hi Red,

How long after filling you tank did you add the Amano Shrimp?


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi Jason,

I am guessing you are thinking about the Ammonia Spike after using all the ADA Amazonia soil and Powder.
Basically, I finished all the hardscape, rock and substrate etc, then filled the tank. I measured the ammonia after a day or two and it was marine blue, completely off the scale!! I left it running for four weeks with no lights on, no Co2 and no fertilisers. A couple of big water changes (one third) for the first two weeks, then left it for two weeks. This was helped by the fact that I went away on Holiday for two weeks, when I got back the ammonia was down to zero.

I then bought all my plants in the fifth week, left it planted for one week, and the added the Amano shrimp. So in all a total of six weeks before adding the shrimp.

So far so good, no losses.

I hope that answers your question?

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## Jason Blake

Hi Steve,

Thanks for getting back to me. Yes that does answer the question. Thanks.

I was asking as I was reading an article that seemed to be suggesting adding shrimp at startup, which to me didn't seem right assuming that the ammonia would just as harmful to shrimp as it would be fish if not more so.

As you may have read I am using J Arthur Bowes Aquatic Soil (I can't really afford another mortgage for ADA soils!) but unlike you I will be adding plants straight away. A few threads and online articles suggest the initial ammonia spike will help feed the plants. There are some that suggest otherwise and I know the guy at The Green Machine is one of them who thinks you should wait for the ammonia spike to pass. But there are a lot who think that this is unecessary.

So I guess I shall see.

Thanks for the answer

Jason


----------



## Edvet

I think it will be hard to find "true"rummy noses, most we see in shops are massproduced by breeding (asia usually) and i think most are "false"ones. On the other hand "catching"season has started so wildcoughts can be found/ordered again.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Jason Blake said:


> Hi Steve,
> 
> Thanks for getting back to me. Yes that does answer the question. Thanks.
> 
> I was asking as I was reading an article that seemed to be suggesting adding shrimp at startup, which to me didn't seem right assuming that the ammonia would just as harmful to shrimp as it would be fish if not more so.
> 
> As you may have read I am using J Arthur Bowes Aquatic Soil (I can't really afford another mortgage for ADA soils!) but unlike you I will be adding plants straight away. A few threads and online articles suggest the initial ammonia spike will help feed the plants. There are some that suggest otherwise and I know the guy at The Green Machine is one of them who thinks you should wait for the ammonia spike to pass. But there are a lot who think that this is unecessary.
> 
> So I guess I shall see.
> 
> Thanks for the answer
> 
> Jason



Hi Jason,

You are right, shrimp will not take too kindly to being dumped in a tank full of ammonia.

I have set up tanks in the past where I have put the hardscape in, immediately followed by the plants and the shrimp, but I wasn't using ADA Soils so didn't have to worry about the ammonia spike too much. Some people say that to get the bacteria going quicker in your filter you need some kind of livestock in the tank, that's why they put the shrimp in straight away, but without overloading the tank with fish too soon before the filters have had time to mature. 

Some people have even used Black Molly fry to get things going. Filters breed two types of bacteria, Nitrobacter, and Nitrosoma depending on whether the filter is mechanical (with oxygen - aerobic) or biological (without oxygen - anaerobic) One relies on mechanical filtration and the other on biological filtration. The Ammonia is converted to Nitrite, and de-nitrified or converted into Nitrate by the bacteria, which then is utilised by the plants as fertiliser. Therefore it is not the initial ammonia that feeds the plants.

Hope this helps.

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Photobucket has done something weird with my photographs, any moderators out there who can delete these for me or advise otherwise...

Thanks,

Steve.


----------



## krzysiekh

You have to buy bandwidth  or wait for new month.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Thanks,

I think I'll just delete them and use Flickr instead...

Moderators any advice?

Thanks.

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi all,

Apparently its all your fault my pictures have temporarily disappeared So may people have viewed the post, the bandwidth from Photobucket has been used up for this month.

According to Photobucket this will reboot back to normal on the first of the month, so back up by Wednesday next week.

Meanwhile I am looking at setting up a Flickr account to see if that is any better. Updates to follow.

Thanks all...

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

REDSTEVEO said:


> Hi Edvet,
> 
> I have been doing some research on the Rummy Nose Tetras. Apparently there are three variations of this fish which most LFS call Rummy Nose tetras.
> 
> They are:
> 
> 1.   Petitella Georgiae or False Rummy-nose tetra
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2.   Hemigrammus Bleheri or Firehead Tetra - passed off as a Rummy Nose Tetra
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3.   Hemigrammus Rhodostomus or true Rummy-nose tetra
> 
> 
> 
> Information found at:
> http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/hemigrammus-rhodostomus
> 
> The True Rummy Nose Tetra looks the best to me. Now I need to find somewhere that has got the genuine article and not something else...any ideas anyone?




Chris at Charterhouse Aquatics in Sowerby Bridge has reserved 25 of these beauties for me, hopefully collecting them on Sunday!


----------



## Andy Thurston

REDSTEVEO said:


> Chris at Charterhouse Aquatics in Sowerby Bridge has reserved 25 of these beauties for me, hopefully collecting them on Sunday!



Do you mean calder valley aquatics?
Its tucked down a side street and is easy to miss. There is a sign showing the turn but it is quite high up.
The fish are very good quality i've never had any problems with fish health from cva and have only seen new arrivals in quarantine


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,





REDSTEVEO said:


> Some people say that to get the bacteria going quicker in your filter you need some kind of livestock in the tank, that's why they put the shrimp in straight away, but without overloading the tank with fish too soon before the filters have had time to mature.
> Some people have even used Black Molly fry to get things going.


 The "sacrificial" fish or shrimp is there to provide ammonia (NH3) via the continual diffusion from its gills, if you already have a source of ammonia (the "Amazonia") you don't need the fish etc.

This is the idea behind "fishless cycling", where you substitute the sacrificial fish for a large slug of ammonium chloride from household cleaner etc. This large initial dose of ammonia means your tank is "cycled" much more quickly.

This has its adherents amongst some people, but I'm definitely not one of them.





REDSTEVEO said:


> Filters breed two types of bacteria, Nitrobacter, and Nitrosoma depending on whether the filter is mechanical (with oxygen - aerobic) or biological (without oxygen - anaerobic) One relies on mechanical filtration and the other on biological filtration. The Ammonia is converted to Nitrite, and de-nitrified or converted into Nitrate by the bacteria, which then is utilised by the plants as fertiliser. Therefore it is not the initial ammonia that feeds the plants.


This isn't quite right, mechanical filtration is just the removal of debris etc from the water column. The finer your mechanical filter is the more it polishes the water.

Biological filtration is the aerobic microbial oxidation of NH3 > NO2 > NO3. You've gone from 3 hydrogens to 3 oxygens, so you've added an acid (acids are H+ ion donors) and you've consumed oxygen. Biological filtration requires a source of carbonates (the bacteria are actually consuming carbon, but using the NH3 as an energy source) and lots of oxygen.

You can potentially anaerobically break down NO3 and outgas inert N2. This is the idea behind deep sand beds and plenums etc. Some filter media claim to support both processes (have a look for the wick test etc on "youtube"). Again having both aerobic and anaerobic processes in your filter is such a bad idea I'm not even going to go there. 
*
Biological filtration is all about oxygen.
*
Plants take up NH3/NH4+, NO2 and NO3. The original scientific work on the uptake of nitrogen by root hairs actually used Amazon Frogbit (_Limnobium laevigatum_) as it model plant. Details in this thread: <Plants roots....>.

cheers Darrel


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Big clown said:


> Do you mean calder valley aquatics?
> Its tucked down a side street and is easy to miss. There is a sign showing the turn but it is quite high up.
> The fish are very good quality i've never had any problems with fish health from cva and have only seen new arrivals in quarantine



Yes, sorry, what an idiot! It is Calder Valley Aquatics. Chris was very helpful and it will make a change for me to go and see somewhere I haven't been before...

Thanks,

Steve

Hi Darrell,

Always good to have an expert on hand to clear up any misunderstandings I based my comments on what I have supposedly learnt over the years and probably mixed up the biological with the mechanical. I understood aerobic to be with oxygen, so for example a wet and dry filter, or any filter with an area exposed to the atmosphere. Anaerobic, without oxygen is a closed system, i.e. an external canister filter or Biological system.

I just thought that the nitrosoma and nitrobacter bacteria did different jobs, and needed different environments to do it in.

Either way lets not continue this topic in this thread, I am sure it is available somewhere else in another forum.

But thanks for clearing things up.

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Well I finally got some fish and what fish they are. Twenty genuine Rummy Nose Tetras and twenty Diamond Neon Tetra which look absolutely stunning. And all from Chris at Calder Valley Aquatics near Sowerby Bridge.

Pictures coming soon...


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi Folks,

Sorry about the delay in getting these pics posted, I have registered an account with Flickr and uploaded them to their site. I am trying to work out how to get them on here in a decent size.

Anyone got any advice, hints or tips for me?

Thanks.

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Through some pfaffing about and trial and error I managed to post these pictures, trouble is I can't seem to be able to repeat the process...


https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2946/15223678798_681424e678_h.jpg


----------



## REDSTEVEO

I think this is it...


----------



## Vinkenoog1977

Looking great!


----------



## Greenfinger2

Hi, Looking good The plants are settling in and looking healthy too


----------



## Crossocheilus

Looking really good redsteveo I'm sure it can only get better.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Greenfinger2 said:


> Hi, Looking good The plants are settling in and looking healthy too



Hi thanks,

I did start getting some signs of brown algae on the mini hair grass stems and some deterioration in the Monte Carlos...so I have had to reduce the lighting period and the use of 4 tubes down to 2. I am just using the Guisemann Aqua Flora Tubes at the moment.
The other two Eheim Daylight tubes seem to be too bright or too strong...


----------



## wick

Stunning!
I'm loving the way the hill is growing in.Them tetras really give  a true idea of the scale of the thing . It's huge!


----------



## EdwinK

If you have a ceiling mounted pendant you can raise it up and use all your tubes. Plants look healthy and lush at the moment. Good job.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

wick said:


> Stunning!
> I'm loving the way the hill is growing in.Them tetras really give  a true idea of the scale of the thing . It's huge!



Hi Wick,

You are absolutely spot on there mate, I hadn't realised it myself until the fish went in. In a few weeks time I will be ready to put the Diamond Blue Discus in



EdwinK said:


> If you have a ceiling mounted pendant you can raise it up and use all your tubes. Plants look healthy and lush at the moment. Good job.



Thanks EdwinK,

The lighting units for this set up came with the tank and are designed to rest inside under the Smoked glass sliding trays so it is all nice and contained.

Also I found out today that the four original T5 tubes that came with it are just bog standard white T5 Tubes you could get from anywhere. So I have just bought 
2 x 54 watt T5 Eheim Freshwater PlantGro tubes from The Abyss Aquatic Warehouse in Stockport. These combined with the 2 x Guisemann Aqua Flora Tubes look absolutely amazing

So no more problems...hopefully..

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## EdwinK

REDSTEVEO said:


> Eheim Freshwater PlantGro



As Clive (ceg4048) says The Matrix has you


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Well folks I finally had to bite the bullet and upgrade my photobucket account with an extra 10 gig of bandwidth just to get most if not all my photographs visible in this journal. Any that are missing I will replace now that I have got the extra capacity.

Just could not stand it after all my hard work writing the journal and people not being able to see the funny pictures right at the start on page 1. So now they are back for any newcomers to enjoy...

Thanks all for looking and the kind comments.

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi All,

Those of you who are aficionados of the Rummy Nose Tetra club may have spotted from the photographs on page 10 that the Rummy Nose Tetras I bought from Calder Valley Aquatics are not actually the true Rummy Nose Tetras - The Hemigrammus Rhodostomus... they are in fact a mixture of the other two. This was not the fault of Chris I must add, in my enthusiasm to to get hold of these I mistook them for the real ones.

This is probably because they were in such good colour and shape and size that I went ahead and bought twenty of them along with the twenty Diamond Tetras. Also to be fair, Chris showed me the invoice that they came in on and it definitely listed them as the Hemigrammus Rhodostomus. Chris is so good he has even offered to take them back, but the cost of petrol for me to go up there and back again would negate the value of the fish.

Any way to cut a long story short, I have since been out and bought twenty of the genuine ones, so I now have forty Rummy Nose Tetras and twenty Diamond Tetras making sixty fish in total. I would like to offer the first twenty I bought from Calder Valley to anyone on UKAPS for a lot less than I bought them for, say £1.00 per fish , so £20.00 for all of them. They can cost you between £2.99 and £3.99 depending on where you go for them. These are beautiful fish in brilliant condition. They will have to be collected, so if you are local to Chester or Queensferry feel free to PM me if you are interested.

I'll post these in the 'For Sale Section also, and maybe on a well known auction site.

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## darren636

Really enjoying this mountainous layout.
 Its open yet full of detail.
Great plant health.

Its bloody awesome!


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Wow, thanks mate, its comments like that which make all the effort worthwhile


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Sorry,

The Rummy Nose Tetras have been rehoused. Didn't get a lot for them but at least the proportionality in my tank has been restored. Lesson learnt...

Thanks,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Well folks, I think it might be time for a Full Monty 'system reboot'

It has been a few days since I last posted any updates. First of all I have to say something is not quite right and I can't put my finger on the culprit, but it is one of the usual suspects not necessarily in this order:

Too much light and not enough fertilisers, minerals and/or Co2
Not enough light and too much fertilisers, minerals and or Co2
Not enough flow around the tank to distribute the fertilisers, minerals and Co2
A combination of all three above
The reason I say this is because despite the huge filtration provided by the two Eheim filters, changing all four of the tubes to Aqua Flora and Fresh Plant Gro, injected C02 with two drop checkers on lime green, fertilsers and CSM+ going in on alternate days, and 50% water changes once a week...several forms of algae are starting to present themselves in different places. I have left the lights off for the last two days and switched off the Co2 until I work out what is going on.

I have got a lot of brown algae starting to appear on the blades of the dwarf hair grass, green algae appearing on the rocks and some of the hornwood, stag horn algae appearing on the Altananthera Reineckii mini, holes appearing in the leaves on my staurgyrene, and leaves falling off the large leaf plant to the right of the tank.

http://www.aquahobby.com/articles/img/freshwater_algae_13.jpg

On top of this it seems that almost overnight at least 10 of my Amano shrimp have completely vanished without trace, no dead ones found, no carcasses, no exoskeletons nothing, vanished, disappeared..its a mystery

The fish are all doing fine and feeding well, I have not lost a single one since I put them in, but something is not right with the water parameters. I know Clive will do his nut, but I have tested for everything, Nitrite - zero, Ammonia - zero, PH 7.0 temperature 28 degrees, the only thing that is high is the Nitrate which is down to the dry fertilsers. One thing that might be part on the problem is that the GH is zero and the KH is only 1 or two at best. I have tried buffering it with liquid calcium and Sera Mineral salts but so far no change.

So system reboot, I think, stop everything, one quarter water changes every day until everything is removed from the water column and then start adding things back one at a time starting with Co2. I have already added a T-Bar to the outlet on the filter with the C02 going in to the tank so that the Co2 enriched water is going to both ends of the tank.

In the meantime if any one can identify any glaring mistakes in my regime, or has any brilliant inspirational ideas on what might be the cause of these algae outbreaks, I will be only too pleased to hear them.

Updates to follow.

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## ceg4048

Steve, as usual, your glaring mistake is that you are using too much light, so this is probably a diatomic bloom.
I don't know why people are always in denial about their lighting. When you flood plants they choke, when you bombard them with megawatts they melt or get algae. So you threw good money after bad and prayed at the Temple of Test Kits, and the results tell you nothing because it's a false God.

Do a proper blackout for 3-4 days, turn down your light intensity, do plenty of water changes and carry on mate.

Cheers,


----------



## Vinkenoog1977

And don't worry about the vanished shrimp; they are incredible at hide and seek.


----------



## Crossocheilus

ceg4048 said:


> So you threw good money after bad and prayed at the Temple of Test Kits, and the results tell you nothing because it's a false God.


 
Very articulate Clive and obviously very good advice.
Steveo, from what I know (not much) this sounds like a classic co2/light/flow issue. With full EI dosing you never really get nutrient deficiencies, however the normal culprit is a case of not enough co2 for the light levels and often poor distribution. It seems your flow is good, your co2 either needs increasing ( at the risk of the fish) or your light decreased to 2 tubes ( as is recommended) 
Best of luck mate I'm sure you can pull it back


----------



## REDSTEVEO

OOOooohh the wise one has spoken

Hi Clive, I thought it wouldn't take long before you picked up on this, but even the speed this time around surprised me!

Your right of course, I succumbed to the devil and whimpered back to the test kits

I got your message loud and clear, and as ever will follow your recommendations, just one question, when you say "total blackout for 3-4 days, turn down your light intensity, do plenty of water changes and carry on mate" By carry on, do you mean keep the Co2 going in and the ferts - CSM+ during the blackout?

Cheers,

Steve.



Vinkenoog1977 said:


> And don't worry about the vanished shrimp; they are incredible at hide and seek.



Either that or they are masters of der skies, sorry I meant disguise! I'll let you know if I see more than two in one day!


----------



## Vinkenoog1977

REDSTEVEO said:


> *Either that or they are masters of der skies, sorry I meant disguise!* I'll let you know if I see more than two in one day!



That was personal! LOL As a kid, I always thought that was what they said, didn't figure it out until those crappy movies came out a couple of years ago. Ow, the mind of a (Dutch speaking) child. 

Ow, and yeah, keep doing what you were doing, as far as CO2, ferts and flow, but cut down on the amount of light (as said, remove two tubes). I'd do a 4 day blackout, and after that, do 50% WC every other day for the next couple of weeks, then go back down to weekly WC. You could try upping the light after that, if all goes back to normal, but you would be wise to up the CO2 then as well. Might take some trial and error to see how far you can push it without stressing the fish too much, but if you want to have the full 4 tubes on eventually, you might have to.


----------



## ceg4048

REDSTEVEO said:


> when you say "total blackout for 3-4 days, turn down your light intensity, do plenty of water changes and carry on mate" By carry on, do you mean keep the Co2 going in and the ferts - CSM+ during the blackout?


No mate. What I mean is that after the blackout carry on with the good things such as high CO2 and nutrient dosing. You can dose during the blackout but this becomes an inconvenience if the the tank is wrapped correctly. 
Blackout instructions are found in the post http://ukaps.org/forum/threads/converting-an-emersed-tank-to-a-submersed-tank.13204/#post-140493

Cheers,


----------



## REDSTEVEO

OMG I didn't even make the connection - Vinkenoog1977, I am so sorry if I caused you any offense, how insensitive of me...it just came out and I thought no more of it...

Thanks for the advice, blackout starts tomorrow, so no more photo updates until I see what the results are. 

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Well folks, day two of the Blackout and nothing much to see here.







Not much on tele either so I thought I would have look for something on my Sky Planner to watch that might cheer me up a bit while I'm waiting...found this so thought I'd share it...


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Vinkenoog1977 said:


> And don't worry about the vanished shrimp; they are incredible at hide and seek.



Guess what you were right...I have seen quite few now...I am amazed because i looked for hours and could not see a single one..phew that's a relief.

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## Vinkenoog1977

I had 7 of them in a 25 liter tank (40x25x25 cm), with no obvious hiding places. I managed to get 5 of them out, after 1,5 hours of work, before I moved in my CRS. I figured the others had escaped. Two days later, guess what? I find one, out in the open. Three days later, another one! And these were mature, fully grown ones, so hard to hide in such a small tank.

It gets worse, because after another week or so, there was another one. So... Huh? Now, I've seen them move from tank to tank before, but that was with two tanks on the same shelf. The closest Amano tank to this one, is a good 6 meters, plus 1 meter down, and another meter climbing back up. To be honest, I wouldn't even put it past them.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

I have heard they can go into hiding when they are not happy with the water conditions. Years ago in another tank I thought I had lost all mine, couple of big water changes later and some Sera Mineral salts they were all out happy as Larry!

Never seen them move to another tank because they weren't keen on the water conditions though


----------



## Vinkenoog1977

They just went back and forth, same with the red cherries I had in those two tanks, was a real head-scratcher at first, but when I started taking daily counts, there was no doubt they were moving back and forth. And the water conditions were identical!


----------



## wick

I have this recurring thought, :  that when steve pulls back the curtains on his tank, the lovely Debbie McGee Will be waiting inside


----------



## REDSTEVEO

More like Cilla Black singing, "What's it all about, Algaeeeeeeee"


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Day three of the Blackout, although I have to confess while almost in total darkness I made some technical adjustments to the outlet pipe work from the Eheim Professional 2 Filter that supplies the Co2.

I made my own spray bar using some black and clear plastic pipework that I had lying around in the garage. Its a sort of large U-Shape so that Co2 enriched water goes to the left, centre, and right of the tank. There are four holes to the left and right and six to the centre all pointing slightly downwards towards the substrate. I drilled the holes myself using only a 4 mm drill bit to try and maintain a decent level of pressure to keep the water moving around the substrate. 

The only thing I still need to do is replace that awful grey Fluval tubing with some decent black stuff, the Fluval has gone a horrible white garish colour which spoils the background. Here are the pictures.





Obviously this pipework is below the water level normally I just lowered the water level while I was doing the work and maintenenance.












As you can see the pipe is an extended U-Shape which fits nicely around the dry weir, as long as I can sort out the Fluval stuff for some black pipe I'll be sorted.





FINALLY, I have got my grandson Jake who is only 8 months old coming round today and he hasn't see the tank yet

Does anyone think Clive will mind if I whip the covers off and put one set of lights on for an hour or two

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## tim

You know you shouldn't but it is your tank


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Yes you are right and childrers are more important


----------



## ceg4048

Steve, you can play with the light short term and get away with it if you've fixed the problem. I'm more worried about the lack of muscle coming out of the spraybar. Looks like you need more ooph unless you had dialed the flow back on the filter. I can't keep track the various gimmicks on different filter models these days but if it has a lever to change the flow rate then it should be set to max. Flow should always be Legendary when possible. Only then can you dance to your hearts desire with megawatts.

Cheers,


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi Clive, the Eheim Professional 2 Filter is turned up to the max, so the water that was coming out of the single 22/16mm outlet is now coming out of a total of 14 4mm holes, 6 front and 4 to left and right. I think the only way I could get a bit more oomph is by reducing the number of holes to build up the pressure, maybe reduce by one from each side, 2 in the middle? Less holes higher pressure = more oomph?

The other thing is the massive Eheim T3 Filter is set at max and could probably drain the tank in less than ten minutes, so I was kind of hoping that would keep the water moving around and help distribute the C02?

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## ceg4048

Well, maybe you had the holes pointing down when you took those photos because it looks weak. If that's the case you should reorient the holes so that they are pointing at the horizontal.

Cheers,


----------



## Edvet

Do the jets reach the front pane with some oomph? (when above water)


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Edvet said:


> Do the jets reach the front pane with some oomph? (when above water)



Hi Edvet,
No, as they are at the moment they just about reach half way when above the water. I have observed the movement of the Co2 bubbles from every angle of the tank to see where they are reaching, from my observations it would appear that they are reaching every corner, left to right and front to back. But this is being aided by the water movement from the second filter.

Steve



ceg4048 said:


> Well, maybe you had the holes pointing down when you took those photos because it looks weak. If that's the case you should reorient the holes so that they are pointing at the horizontal.
> 
> Cheers,



Hi Clive,

Yes you are right they are definitely pointing downwards, I deliberately pointed them downwards thinking that that would achieve a state where the Co2 enriched water would make its way easier down to the substrate level.

Is this not correct? How does having them horizontal improve the flow to the substrate. 

More than happy to adjust if it is going to make a difference. 

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## ceg4048

REDSTEVEO said:


> Is this not correct?


No, it's not.



REDSTEVEO said:


> How does having them horizontal improve the flow to the substrate.


Read the post http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/right-distribution-with-spray-bars-on-front.22048/#post-225808 as well as the sticky in the Filter subforum http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/water-flow-in-the-planted-aquarium.1167/

Cheers,


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Thanks for sending me the links Clive,

I have always said that anything not written somewhere on this site is not worth knowing about.

I have read the details in the two threads and it all makes perfect sense. I will adjust them on the next water change when I will also be replacing the Fluval tubing which has gone white with some black piping.

Pictures to come soon post blackout. I had a peak yesterday, there has definitely been some improvement, but I think by adjusting the angle of the spray bar will make a difference. I also need to do some pruning and remove quite a few leaves that have had it.

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Exciting news

Discus arriving on Friday! Can't wait


----------



## REDSTEVEO

So all being well, by this time tomorrow night I will have my discus all in the tank!

3 x Blue Diamonds, 2 x Blue Snakeskins from Chris Ingham at Plymouth Discus.
http://plymouthdiscus.com/

3 x Royal Reds crossed with Red Curipea, and 2 x Red Curipea from Steve Punchard in Clitheroe.
http://www.puncharddiscus.co.uk/discus-advice

So ten in total all around the 2.5 to 3.5 inch size, can't wait to see these guys shoaling across the tank!!

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## Vazkez

Calling for pictures please


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Thanks Vazkez, don't worry, camera is at the ready battery all charged up and pictures will come!!


----------



## ADA

Hi Steveo, tbh with you your pushing it with the 10 discus, once you factor in substrate, rocks and once the plants are fully grown that's no where near enough space for 10 discus mate, one thing I pride myself on is my discus knowledge , I kept them for 6 years and learned a lot, 7 max in that tank mate.


----------



## Edvet

ADA said:


> 7 max in that tank mate.


 depends on filter, i've been to a big german discus breeder, behind the screen, there can be a lot more in a tank, all depends on filter/water quality.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Quote _"Hi Steveo, tbh with you your pushing it with the 10 discus, once you factor in substrate, rocks and once the plants are fully grown that's no where near enough space for 10 discus mate, one thing I pride myself on is my discus knowledge , I kept them for 6 years and learned a lot, 7 max in that tank mate"_

Yes I hear what you are saying, but I also hear what a lot of other people are saying. Some discus breeders I have spoken with have read this journal and know exactly what the set up is like and they have still said as many as 15 or 20 discus depending on who you talk to. When people start talking about 10 gallons per discus fish, I always believe they are referring to fully grown adults, feeding on lots of beefheart etc. I am also relying on my own 10 years of discus keeping previously, so,  I have gone for somewhere in the middle with 10.

I have gone for ten based on the fact that they are only 2.5 to 3 inches in size and they won't be eating much if any beefheart, I am going with a multi varied diet using one of Chris Ingham's Discus Delight boxes from Plymouth Discus. See link below for what is included.

http://plymouthdiscus.com/ocretail/pd/index.php?route=product/category&path=108_92

As they develop and grow I will keep an eye on them, and at any time I think that the sizes are too big for that many and the tank is not coping with it, rather than harm or stress the fish out I will reduce by maybe 1, 2 or 3 depending.

I appreciate your concerns, time will tell if I made a mistake not, but I will sell a few off if there are signs of problems, for now I need them to shoal together and you need a decent group for them to feel comfortable enough to do this.

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## wick

I wonder if Steveo's Discus have arrieved yet.
I'm pacing the floors here.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Edvet said:


> depends on filter, I've been to a big German discus breeder, behind the screen, there can be a lot more in a tank, all depends on filter/water quality.



Cheers Edvet, 

 I kept and successfully bred discus in Germany for nearly 10 years, where was the discus breeder you went to?

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

wick said:


> I wonder if Steveo's Discus have arrived yet.
> I'm pacing the floors here.



Yeah me too!! I keep looking out the window every time I hear a car or van go past

They are here

Update to follow


----------



## REDSTEVEO

They are all in, safe and well! Lights off at the moment so no photos, plenty of unpacking etc just got to load them up to Flickr!

Steve.


----------



## ADA

I know you think I was prob a bit harsh mate but they're gonna grow and honestly wouldn't go higher than 7 and they're also best kept in odd numbers, can't remember why.

Also mate it's more than 10G a discus as imagine a fully grown side plate size discus in a 40L cube?


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Yeah I don't want to appear as if I don't appreciate your advice because I know you mean well, but all ten are in now so I will see how they get on over the next few weeks. My theory is that when adding discus to you tank you should always add them together so that none of them get territorial. If I had only bough five and kept them for a couple of weeks and then decided I wanted more, it would have been too late because the others will have claimed the space. I can always take one or two out in a few weeks time, but adding one or two in a few weeks time wouldn't work.

Besides they tend to eat better when there is a good group because they feel more secure.

I am just waiting for the pictures to finish uploading from the unpacking, not got any decent pics yet of the fish, I think its a bit too early to start photographing them.

One thing I can tell everyone is that the ones from Steve Punchard are a very big 2.5 to 3 inches compared to the ones from Plymouth Discus, there is quite a size difference, but they have all got good colour though.

Later!

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Started uploading some photos to Flickr over an hours ago, still waiting.

Took these on my phone and uploaded to Photobucket 10 minutes ago, not great quality because I used my phone to take the pictures, the others are with my sons camera and should be higher quality.

Will be taking some more tomorrow after things have settled down.

Cheers.

Steve


----------



## Edvet

REDSTEVEO said:


> discus breeder you went to


 Who else then Stendker


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi Edvet,

I agree Stendker has a great reputation, I would love to visit them next time I am in Germany...

Cheers,

Steve.

Well folks what a busy few days I've had over the weekend. Water changes, trying to feed them all, checking all the water parameters, I'd forgotten that it can almost be a full time job! 

As things have turned out, the discus I got from Steve Punchard are considerably bigger than the fish I got from Plymouth Discus, more like three and a half inches to four inches than 2.5 inches. It hasn't stopped them all shoaling together though which is a great sight when it happens.

Feeding them is my main concern at the moment and getting them used to a planted environment with other fish in that they have never seen before. Its early days but getting them to recognise the flake and granules as food is a bit frustrating. Especially when the Rummy Nose Tetras and the diamond Tetras are eating t like crazy. The Blue Diamonds are a brilliant colour although slightly small and I may struggle with them more than the others, the Blue Snakeskins are gorgeous.

I don't want to offer them frozen bloodworm for all the obvious reasons and I am set against beef heart for the time being. I did try them on live Brine Shrimp which they all went after, but a lot were eaten by the other fish in the tank before the discus really knew they were there. I might try feeding the other fish first on other food until they are full, then pop the live food in. I will be looking on the internet to see what alternative live foods are available, white worm, etc. but I don't want them to become solely reliant on this as a food source.

I am probably going to invest in a HMA Filter as well, I threw my old RO unit out a year or two ago after it had not been used for a long time.

I also have a feeling that I am going to have to provide a bit more cover or shelter in the form of roots or branches so that they don't get too spooked when all the lights come on.

Any suggestions or comments welcome, or anything to maintain or improve the welfare of the fish much appreciated.

As soon as I get some decent pictures of them shoaling together I will post them up.

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## Edvet

I would see if i could get hold of 2/3 pieces of root (kienholz/moorholz) and stick them in a corner (maybe even just suspend them hanging in a corner) to give them some cover.


----------



## ADA

What about a lighting controller? The more shade they have the less likely they'll come out in the open.


----------



## Edvet

I think they will come out in the open when they know they have a safe spot to retract too. Eventually they will get used to the "open" tank (most breeders have them in bare tanks, but at less light). Mine where in the open most of the time except when something was different, they "ran"to cover then and peeked out from it.
28833708_Pb290683 by Edvet, on Flickr


----------



## Vazkez

Hi Steve,

I was always thinking about something loke this :

http://tropica.com/en/inspiration/layout/Layout10/4851

Can't wait for the pictures btw 

EDIT :

Nice tank Edvet


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Vazkez said:


> Hi Steve,
> 
> I was always thinking about something loke this :
> 
> http://tropica.com/en/inspiration/layout/Layout10/4851
> 
> Can't wait for the pictures btw
> 
> Wow what a greta link to a site with really good suggestions on layout. I am going to have to have a think about this.
> 
> EDIT :
> 
> Nice tank Edvet


----------



## REDSTEVEO

ADA said:


> What about a lighting controller? The more shade they have the less likely they'll come out in the open.



I have got 4 x 54 watt T5 tubes on timers, but at the moment I am leaving them switched off during the day and only switching two of them on for a few hours in the evening,  so I am not sure a lighting controller would do me any good. Is it some kind of dimmer switch because I am not sure these work on tubes?

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Sorry guys that there has been no updates lately. I am having a few issues getting the discus settled in to their new environment!

They have all come from sterile bare bottomed low light slow moving water in tanks at 30 degrees temperature with no other tank mates and are now having to get used to:

A totally planted aquarium
Co2
High flow rates of water
Increased lighting
CSM+ and KNO3 Dosing
Loads of other fish, shrimps
Unfamiliar food
28 degree water temperature
As you might have guessed one or two of the Red Curipea discus are not settling in as well because of their previous diet of almost exclusively beef heart.

I am trying everything possible to get them to eat other foods but they are proving to be stubborn. The Blue Diamonds and the two Blue snakeskins seem to have adapted and are eating quite well, I thought the others would have followed their example by now but they don't seem to recognise anything else as food even when it is right in front of their noses.

The increased bio mass has also tipped my water parameters and led to an algae break out which Clive is helping me with.
I have added kattappa leaves and alder cones, plus various discus water improvers and now just have to wait and see what happnes.

Cheers,

Steve.

So the long and short of it is I have not taken any new photographs until such time as things have stabilised and things are looking better.


----------



## ADA

Why are you against beef heart?


----------



## REDSTEVEO

I have nothing against beef heart in a situation where you are breeding discus and trying to grow them on quickly in a sterile glass bottomed tank, easy to clean and maintain etc. but I have seen the mess discus can make with beef heart in a planted tank and it isn't good. Besides discus don't eat beef heart in the wild so why should they be fed on it in captivity?


----------



## NC10

....but they do eat flake and pellets?


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Yes I take your point, but the flake and pellets I am trying to feed them on are made up from ingredients that they would expect to find in the wild such as small shrimp and crustaceans etc


----------



## NC10

I think really it's just a cheap high quality protein source. I don't know exactly, but like you've mentioned crustaceans and small shrimp, I'm guessing 80% of their diet in the wild consists of high protein food with the odd vegetable snack thrown in.

You can easily and cheaply make your own beefheart mix, that's what I do. It includes prawns, garlic, spinach, oats, regular flakes and of couse beefheart. Just freeze it and you have quite a few months supply of high quality food.

I don't what you mean by the mess it creates in a planted tank, but I've been fine and I suppose that would come down to you and how much you throw in.

Let me know if you want the recipe anyway.


----------



## ADA

Feed them bloodworm then? The tetra will struggle to gobble that down before the discus do, I can see this having problem after problem. Feed them what they want to eat, they are going to out grow your tank whether you feed them flake or frozen but the flake will stunt them longer. Discus are big fish, drop the numbers to 7, feed well, stick to one other species of schooling fish like cardinals and they'll settle, discus look to cardinals as an early warning.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

NC10 said:


> I think really it's just a cheap high quality protein source. I don't know exactly, but like you've mentioned crustaceans and small shrimp, I'm guessing 80% of their diet in the wild consists of high protein food with the odd vegetable snack thrown in.
> 
> You can easily and cheaply make your own beefheart mix, that's what I do. It includes prawns, garlic, spinach, oats, regular flakes and of couse beefheart. Just freeze it and you have quite a few months supply of high quality food.
> 
> I don't what you mean by the mess it creates in a planted tank, but I've been fine and I suppose that would come down to you and how much you throw in.
> 
> Let me know if you want the recipe anyway.



Yes please pm me the recipe or post it here if you don't mind everyone seeing your recipe, I think if I have to use it I would rather mix it myself than order it on line, at least then I know exactly what is in it, and it won't have defrosted while in the post.

Cheers,

Steve.



ADA said:


> Feed them bloodworm then? The tetra will struggle to gobble that down before the discus do, I can see this having problem after problem. Feed them what they want to eat, they are going to out grow your tank whether you feed them flake or frozen but the flake will stunt them longer. Discus are big fish, drop the numbers to 7, feed well, stick to one other species of schooling fish like cardinals and they'll settle, discus look to cardinals as an early warning.



Again, I am sorry but I have never been a massive fan of bloodworm either, particularly the frozen variety. I have raed loads of articles on the net about the pathogens and bacteria that come with live bloodworm, so if I was going to use it I would probably give them a soaking in a mild solution of Myxazin or similar to kill the bacteria.

Years ago I used to add vitamin powder to a water solution and let the bloodworm swim around in that for an hour to ingest the vitamins and then feed them to the discus. They used to go mad for it, trouble is, if you are not careful you can get to the stage where they refuse to eat anything else.

Apparently a diet with as much variey in it is the best way forward so i try to stick to that if I can.

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## Edvet

Live food live food live food Live food live food live food Live food live food live foodLive food live food live food


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Edvet said:


> Live food live food live food Live food live food live food Live food live food live foodLive food live food live food



Hi Edvet,

I would like to feed the discus on as much live food as I can get my hands on honestly. Trouble is most of the places near where I live only get it in once a week and unless you get it fresh on the day it comes in most of it is dead in the bag a few days later, especially the brine shrimp. The bloodworm and the daphnia are 55 pence a bag and the brineshrimp is £1.10 per bag and you are lucky if there are more than 30 or 40 brine shrimp in the bag!

I have looked at buying a white worm starter culture off eBay and starting my own lot off. I have looked at garden worm farms,you name it.

So if you or anyone else knows somewhere on the internet you can buy cheaply in bulk I am all ears!

Thanks,

Steve.


----------



## Edvet

Set up a white worm and grindal worm culture, not that hard to do and good food.
Alternate with some Assellus and or Hyalella, or some hacked garden worms, (I've always thought a lot of bowel problems in fish stem from not enough roughage/ dietairy fiber. A lot of the white droppings can be cleared with good foodstuffs.)
Give black,white and red mosquito larvea (frozen or fresh if you can get them) and some algea wafers and you're done


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Cheers Edvet,

I will probably give the white worm culture a try, I know I can get live red mosquito larvae, not sure about black or white ones though. I have been trying with freeze dried californian blackworms which I have soaked in garlic slices and they seem to be going for that at the moment.

The next lot of live food comes in on Wednesday at my local TFS so I will probably buy a load then.



Edvet said:


> Assellus and or Hyalella


Not sure what these are.

I have just finished taking a load of pictures of the tank and waiting now for them to upload on to Photobucket. I will post them up for everyone to see later.

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## NC10

I'm not at home at the moment but I'll post the recipe as soon as I can.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

NC10 said:


> I'm not at home at the moment but I'll post the recipe as soon as I can.



Thanks NC10 I look forward to it.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Well here finally are some new photographs...as you can see I have added a few things to make the discus feel more at home...a few Amazon sword plants, some kattappa leaves, some Alder cones and some floating Frogbit which will give it a slightly more discus type biotope I think. The Manzanita wood is from Mr Manzanita, bought from eBay for a reasonable price for two quality pieces.










Sorry about the lighting for this photograph, I need to find the right settings for the camera (again)

































And finally the discus decide to come out and have their photographs taken...





























Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## James D

I can see the Discus pics at the bottom but a lot of the top ones are missing for me Steve. From the tantalizing glimpses behind the Discus your tank looks fantastic though!


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





REDSTEVEO said:


> I have looked at garden worm farms,you name it.


 Earthworms are an "easy to culture" live food that most cichlids really like (I've never kept Discus, but I would assume they will eat them).  The main problem is that you need the right worm to start with.

The worms you want are either_ Lumbricus rubellus_ (may actually be _L. castaneus)_, _Dendrobaena "veneta" (_now more properly _Eisenia hortensis)_ and _Dendrodrilus rubidus._ They are all worms you get in compost heaps, and you can just feed them on vegetable peelings etc. I've cultured them continuously for about 10 years.

I have a worm bucket, and I also add a few to the Grindal worm cultures, where they make a good "canary", if the earth-worms are on the culture surface it is time to re-culture the Grindal worms.

If you can't find them anywhere I can send you a mix as a starter. I got mine from our compost heap originally, but you often find _Dendrodrilus and L. rubellus/castaneus_ under patio pots etc. They are both extremely lively muscular worm, dark red with a purple sheen, and the fish really like them.

The fish will eat _Dendrobaena, _but they aren't as keen on them.

The one you don't want is the Brandling, or Tiger Worm, _Eisenia fetida (syn. E. foetida)_, it is a pale pink, stripy sluggish worm which produces a lot of bad smelling yellow fluid when the worm is broken. A lot of fish won't eat them, but they are the favoured worm for "vermicomposting".

There is some more discussion here: <http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=40827>.

cheers Darrel


----------



## REDSTEVEO

dw1305 said:


> Earthworms are an "easy to culture" live food that most cichlids really like (I've never kept Discus, but I would assume they will eat them). The main problem is that you need the right worm to start with.



Wow Darrel, you sound like you certainly know your worms. I have just been looking these up on Google Images, I think I am going to have nightmares!

I have just started my first worm farm using worms I collected in the woods nearby. These worms were underneath the wet leaves at the surface of the soil. They look pretty much like _Lumbricus rubellus _although they all look pretty much the same to me, I couldn't say for certain, but they definitely are not the Tiger Worms that I am pretty sure of.

I have put them in a large container following some guides I found on the internet. I am using peat soil mixed with some sand and vermiculite, chopped vegetable matter, composting leaves and porridge oats which have been soaked in water with vitamins and minerals. Trouble is they are all far too big to feed to any of my fish and I hate cutting them up, you get all kinds of brown stuff everywhere. I am hoping that soon there will be some little tiny ones that I can just rinse off and feed straight to the fish.

How do you know when is the right time to look for the baby worms?

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

James D said:


> I can see the Discus pics at the bottom but a lot of the top ones are missing for me Steve. From the tantalizing glimpses behind the Discus your tank looks fantastic though!



Hi James,

I am not sure why you can't see the pictures at the top, there are more pictures around page 10 I think that you might be able to see.

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,





REDSTEVEO said:


> I have just started my first worm farm using worms I collected in the woods nearby. These worms were underneath the wet leaves at the surface of the soil. They look pretty much like _Lumbricus rubellus _although they all look pretty much the same to me, I couldn't say for certain, but they definitely are not the Tiger Worms that I am pretty sure of.
> 
> I have put them in a large container following some guides I found on the internet. I am using peat soil mixed with some sand and vermiculite, chopped vegetable matter, composting leaves and porridge oats which have been soaked in water with vitamins and minerals. Trouble is they are all far too big to feed to any of my fish and I hate cutting them up, you get all kinds of brown stuff everywhere. I am hoping that soon there will be some little tiny ones that I can just rinse off and feed straight to the fish.
> 
> How do you know when is the right time to look for the baby worms?


 The worms sound fine, they will probably be _Lumbricus rubellus_ or _Dendrochilus. _I feed mine on vegetable peelings, but they will eat virtually any organic matter, in the Grindal Worm cultures they must mainly eat the Oats.  I've found that you need to keep them slightly wetter than you think they should need.

It depends on the species when they lay eggs, some do all year around, some just in the winter. I find egg cocoons (below) all year around, but I don't know which species produces them (or whether they all do).



 
 <http://www.herper.com/earthworms/earthworms-breeding-habits.html> 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Edvet

Man you realy know stuf Darrel


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi Darrel,

I agree with Edvet, the question I want to ask is how on earth do you find these little cocoons amongst all the soil, or do you just wait for them to hatch into the soil and then harvest them?

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## NC10

Hi mate, how's the discus going? Have you managed to get them eating yet?

I haven't forgot about you, just been away. I need to make a new batch of food up myself tommorow so I'll post the recipe up when I dig it out.

Thought as well, I could send you a few cubes out in the post if you like, just to try them on it and to see how feel about throwing it in your tank before making a full batch up.

Edit: I knew I'd posted it on here before so I've just dug it up 

350g Beef Heart
150g Prawns
32g Spinach
20g Flakes
10g Oatmeal
2 Cloves of garlic


----------



## Crossocheilus

NC10 said:


> 350g Beef Heart
> 150g Prawns
> 32g Spinach
> 20g Flakes
> 10g Oatmeal
> 2 Cloves of garlic



What is used as a binding agent? And is it frozen? How is it made?


----------



## NC10

Crossocheilus said:


> What is used as a binding agent? And is it frozen? How is it made?



There is no binding agent, I have seen people use gelatine in their recipes though. I haven't tried it but found that's it's fine without it anyway. The flake and oats thicken it up into a more sticky consistency.

I finely chop the garlic and oats, chop the spinach up quite small and then pass everything except the flake through a grinder. I then mix the flake in. I bought the grinder especially for this, but I just used to finely chop everything with pretty much the same results.

I freeze it into ice cube trays and then chop them into quarters just before they're frozen absolutely solid, they're just thrown into a food bag then. I get one out in a morning and put it into a little dish in the fridge, it's then ready by the time lights are on. I break a new small piece of a bamboo skewer too and use this to feed them.

I have 6 discus and 4 angels and this makes up probably 90% of their diet. Every other day or so I'll substitute one of their meals for regular flake and pellets. I was feeding 5 times a day but recently dropped to 4, but the quarter of a cube is plenty, just to give you an idea. The 2 plecs I have get a few wafers too.

I haven't worked the cost out exactly, but you're probably looking at around £5 max which is a bargain for a few months supply of quality food


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi NC10, thanks for taking the time to dig this out for me. Although I have slowly come around to the idea of feeding my discus on some beefheart maybe once or twice a week I have found something which seems to be doing a great job at the moment. Freeze dried Californian Blackworms, it took them a day or two but now they have got a taste for it they are really going for it, fat bellies on all of them. I soak it in Vitazin from Waterlife and add some Kent Garlic Extreme drops, its like 'Discus Crack' 

I have also mixed a paste using a combination of all the food from the discus delights hamper that I got from Plymouth Discus. It is all kinds of flakes, granules, some spinach mixed with Vitazin and they seem to be taking that as well.

I don't know how far you are from me or how long the stuff would take to get here in the post and if it would have defrosted by the time it gets here but it is very kind of you to offer. Hang on for now and I will keep you up to date with how things are going.

Hopefully some pictures to come soon of some 'fat bellied' Discus!! 

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,





REDSTEVEO said:


> the question I want to ask is how on earth do you find these little cocoons amongst all the soil, or do you just wait for them to hatch into the soil and then harvest them?


 I leave the egg cocoons in the container and then just harvest the smaller worms from under the cover where I put the peelings (just like you would with White Worms etc). I use a bit of old carpet, but hessian sacking is the preferred cover medium. <http://www.herper.com/earthworms/earthworms-culture.html>

Every now and then I have a sort through the potting compost, and if it is full of worms I return any really large worms to the compost heap. I also use this process to "rogue out" any _Eisenia fetida.
_
cheers Darrel


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Darrell,

Thanks for the excellent information and the link. Worms are doing nicely in a container with a hessian sack cloth as recommended. I will try and take a photograph if I get any baby worms!!

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,





REDSTEVEO said:


> Worms are doing nicely in a container with a hessian sack cloth as recommended. I will try and take a photograph if I get any baby worms!!


 It will take them a while to bulk up, but you should see them soon. I get some that look a bit like thin white worms, but will definitely grow into Earthworms, and some that look like small adult earthworms even when they are 1/2 the length and thickness of a match stick.  

 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Bhu

REDSTEVEO said:


> Hi Edvet,
> 
> I would like to feed the discus on as much live food as I can get my hands on honestly. Trouble is most of the places near where I live only get it in once a week and unless you get it fresh on the day it comes in most of it is dead in the bag a few days later, especially the brine shrimp. The bloodworm and the daphnia are 55 pence a bag and the brineshrimp is £1.10 per bag and you are lucky if there are more than 30 or 40 brine shrimp in the bag!
> 
> I have looked at buying a white worm starter culture off eBay and starting my own lot off. I have looked at garden worm farms,you name it.
> 
> So if you or anyone else knows somewhere on the internet you can buy cheaply in bulk I am all ears!
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Steve.



get a small tank and breed guppies  or red cherries. These both breed like crazy and are easy to keep... My discus love both and watching them hunt is amazing! Probably get ear ache now for cruelty lol!


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Bhu said:


> Probably get ear ache now for cruelty lol!



Yes I am sure you will from the guppy loving fraternity, not sure about the red cherries though, after all discus do go for small crustaceans in the wild so fair game I suppose.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Happiness is watching your discus swimming around with fat bellies and nice black poo coming out, nice!! Photos to come honest!


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Photographs uploading to Photobucket now, I will upload later, brilliant photo of a very full looking Blue Diamond Discus.

Should be up around 10pm hopefully.

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Well Photobucket did not take quite as long as I expected, maybe something to do with the quality of the photographs as I have had to use my Sony Cybershot, my son asked for his camera back

Here are few photographs as promised. I am having some diatom type algae problems at the moment, photos of which are being posted on the Algae site under the thread, Are UV Filters any good for removing diatomous algae, but I will post one or two here so you know what I am on about.





The dreaded Brown stuff is driving me crazy









The good news is the Discus are really getting the hang of eating now, together we fought anorexia and won!




A shot of the hillock and more of the brown stuff!!




From a distance the tank doesn't look too bad, it's only when you get close which is where I like to get and it annoys me.













Now I have got the Discus sorted I need to work on the diatoms, but this little fellah is full and still looking!





I'm off for a pint!

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

ceg4048 said:


> Too much media in the filter. Way too much. Flow will suffer.
> 
> Cheers,




Hi Clive,

Remember your reply way back on page 4 of this journal? Too much media in the filter!! Flow will suffer!! Well it looks like this might have come back to haunt me, I am beginning to think you were right! The flow from the big Eheim filter is slowing right down.

So next week I am going to reduce the media in both filters by half and will be adding plain old Siporax to the Eheim Professional 2 filter with just a smattering of the original media. I am going to remove all of the plastic medial and replace that with Siporax instead. It will be a quick slick operation all done in less han an hour and shoudl improve the flow significantly,especially the Co2 water.

Will keep you posted, we learn from our own mistakes sometimes and ignore good advice at our peril!

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi All,

Well The Full Monty is on its second day of 'Black Out' and the UV Filter and pump has been installed which is increasing the flow around the tank, apart from the UV there is also an oxygenating feature on it. Water change done, as much brown diatomous algae siphoned out as I could, Flourish Excel added, Co2 Turned up now I just got too wait it out and see what happens in two days time.

Dying to feed the discus though

Steve


----------



## roadmaster

They'll be fine.
I raised a group of juveniles that I fed four times a day for nearly six month's.
Was hard for me once they reached adult size to drop feeding's to twice daily and ultimately to once a day.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

roadmaster said:


> They'll be fine.
> I raised a group of juveniles that I fed four times a day for nearly six month's.
> Was hard for me once they reached adult size to drop feeding's to twice daily and ultimately to once a day.



Thanks for those words of encouragement roadmaster, these discus are not quite juveniles, nor are they adults, they are somewhere in between. I have only just got them feeding so it seems a shame to stop now even if it isonly for a few days.

Any photos of your discus by any chance?

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## roadmaster

Sorry,was ten year's ago, maybe twelve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Well the Black Out Curtains finally came off today after 4 days. I can't say it has been total 24/7 Black Out because I have been feeding the discus at night time with no tank lights on only the house lights.

So today with everything ready to go I set out on a bit of a mission to do some maintenance, a lot of maintenance. I set myself a total time of 4 hours. The kit I had ready to go consisted of:

5 Litres of Siporax
2 Pairs of Eheim pipe connectors
1 Brand new UP Inline Atomiser (New version)
1 Brand New C02 Art Bubble Counter
Bubble Counter Fluid

First I removed the Black Out Curtains and things were looking much better. The internal UV Filter has been running 24/7 with the oxygenating feature turned on. Then off came the Black Smoked glass lids, then the lights removed. I siphoned out 60 lires of water, 20 with some debris and what was left of any algae, which wasn't much. The other 40 litres was kept for rinsing out all the filter substrate from both filters.

I disconnected everything and removed both filters. First I removed all the filter medium from the Eheim Professional 2 filter and replaced all three baskets with a mixture of brand new Siporax and some old Eheim Filter medium. Rinsed out the canister and flushed all the pipes clean, all mature filter medium was rinsed out in a bucket of tank water and the new Siporax was rinsed in the water to collect some of the bacteria.

I re assembled the Eheim 2 Filter and connected up the Eheim pipe connectors and fitted the new UP inline atomiser, 1 filter ready to go all done in less than an hour. Then I removed all the baskets (4) from the big Eheim Thermal Filter and placed each basket in a seperate bucket of mature tank water. I removed all the black plastic tubular filter medium and replaced it with brand new Siporax, again mixed with some of the old filter Eheim Clay ball medium. Overall I probably reduced the filter medium in each basket in both filters by a third.

Clive was right back on page 4 of this journal when he said there was far too much filter medium in both filters. The flow was becoming really slow and not efficient at all. So both filters now re assembled, I fitted another pair of Eheim pipe connectors on to the the thermal filter and placed both back in the cabinet. I rearranged all the positions of the inlets for both filters so there is now one either side of the weir. I removed the spray bar and fitted a wide spread outlet head on the Ehem Professional 2, connected up the new Bubble counter wth its new liquid inside.

I topped up the tank with a fresh lot of water with all my ferts, flourish Excel, Easy Carbo and got ready to get the filters going, just under two hours gone.

Then came the leak test, I connected up a vacuum pipe to suck the water up and into the filters, running the pipe into one of my 20 litre containers. Bingo all the water came flowing out into the container, no leaks Very happy indeed, and the flow coming out of both filters is nearly double what was coming out before, and crystal clear. Turned on the thermal heater, temperature showing 25 which was a bit cooler than I would have liked but the heater kicked in and soon it was back up to 28 degrees.

Two hours to do all that, I was quite chuffed with myself. Now it was going to take another hour and a bit to clean up the kitchen and tidy up the mess from all the bits and boxes. A total of three hours later and I'm sat in front of the tank drinking a cup of tea and the discus are out swimming around as if nothing had happened, how good is that.

So I got my camera out and took some photos which are now uploading on to Photobucket. As soon as they are up I will post any of them that look decent. The first thing I noticed was there are lots of white flecks in a lot of the photos, this is the air bubbles from the UV Filter whizzing round the tank and mixing with the Co2. Tomorrow I will take a few more without the oxygenating feature on.

I am off for my tea while the photos are loading up.

Cheers and thanks for looking..

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

New Photos as promised....

New Eheim Pipe connecors fitted, this is going to make things easier next time on filter maintenance...






All back in place, nice and tidy...





New version of UP Inline Co2 Diffuser fitted...





Dupla PH Meter showing current PH...





Cables and plugs all tidied up, honest...





Just need to tidy up the lower left side of the cabinet a bit...





A full tank shot, white bits are oxygen bubbles from the UV filter...





The Diatomous algae almost gone...





End of tank shot...





This end will get some tidying up and new plants next week...





Blue Diamond Discus on the hunt for food...





The Red Curipea joining the hunt for food...









Floating plants and the food amongst them, the discus looking for the Californian Black Worms...









The Hillock looking better than it did 4 days ago...





No more algae on the Amazon Sword Plants...





The tank is looking better now, although I think I am probably going to remove the Eleocharis and replace it with Echinodrus Tennellus instead. Some other plants going in next week..

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## Bhu

Looking really good. Why are you swopping the eleocharis over? Tenellus is lovely and very easy to grow. A tank to be proud and happy of for sure!


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Bhu said:


> Looking really good. Why are you swopping the eleocharis over? Tenellus is lovely and very easy to grow. A tank to be proud and happy of for sure!



The Eleoharis is too fine and catches too much debris, I think the Tennellus will do better...

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## DivZero

Maybe I missed it earlier, but why are you dosing both Excel and EasyCarbo?

Glad the tank is on its way to recovery!


----------



## REDSTEVEO

DivZero said:


> Maybe I missed it earlier, but why are you dosing both Excel and EasyCarbo?
> 
> Glad the tank is on its way to recovery!



One of the things about diatomous - brown algae is that it can be a number of causes, so I thought I would attack this from every angle in an attempt to get rid of it. I was already dosing Flourish Excel and that wasn't having the effect I was looking for. I already had my Co2 turned up as high as I thought I could get away with without harming the fish, so I supplemented it with Easy Carbo. So far it seems to be working, obviously the Black Out helped but I am sure the internal UV is also having an effect. The water seems to have a much clearer brighter edge to it, similar to as if it had been polished using activated carbon in the filter.

Why do you ask, would you be advising against it?

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## DivZero

REDSTEVEO said:


> One of the things about diatomous - brown algae is that it can be a number of causes, so I thought I would attack this from every angle in an attempt to get rid of it. I was already dosing Flourish Excel and that wasn't having the effect I was looking for. I already had my Co2 turned up as high as I thought I could get away with without harming the fish, so I supplemented it with Easy Carbo. So far it seems to be working, obviously the Black Out helped but I am sure the internal UV is also having an effect. The water seems to have a much clearer brighter edge to it, similar to as if it had been polished using activated carbon in the filter.
> Why do you ask, would you be advising against it?



The active ingredient for both Excel and EasyCarbo are the same: gluteraldehyde, which plants can use as carbon source (which is referred to liquid CO2 in marketing terms) and have the side effect of being toxic to many sorts of algae in low concentrations. Beware that it's toxic for just about anything at higher concentrations. The products are basically the same but will most likely have a slightly different concentration of gluteraldehyde and/or dosing regime. One of the things people do using either product is increase the dosage (in most cases the double dose, which is only recommended for heavily planted tanks) isn't a problem for your fish/shrimp (but don't take my word for it, look it up if in doubt!). So basically by adding both Excel and EasyCarbo you are increasing the concentration of gluteraldehyde which is helping you fight your algae. I personally don't know if it helps against diatomous, but if it is, the same thing applies. Also have a look at this topic: http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/anyone-tried-easy-life-easycarbo.441/

So basically I wouldn't advice against it if it hasn't been giving you problems with your fish. But using both Excel and  EasyCarbo should have the same effect of double dosing either Excel or EasyCarbo.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Okay that makes a lot of sense. I am only dosing the minimum recommended dose of each, but combined that may be the double dosage so I wil take heed of your warning.

Thanks very much...

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Here is somthing I have not heard of before, it is from Seachem called 'Stability' 

Looks a great quality product, something I used yesterday while I was changing all the filter media. You don't need much so it lasts for ages. See the link below.

http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Stability.html

Any one used this before?

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## DivZero

REDSTEVEO said:


> Here is somthing I have not heard of before, it is from Seachem called 'Stability'
> 
> Looks a great quality product, something I used yesterday while I was changing all the filter media. You don't need much so it lasts for ages. See the link below.
> 
> http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Stability.html
> 
> Any one used this before?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Steve.






> The bacteria used in competing products are inherently unstable. The conditions necessary for their growth and development fall into a very narrow range of temperatures, pH, organic loads, etc. When any of these parameters are not strictly within the proper range, the bacterial culture quickly crashes and dies. Stability® does not contain any of the aforementioned bacteria.
> 
> The bacteria strains in Stability® have been in development for over a decade. The necessary conditions for growth of our bacterial strains encompass a very broad range. When other bacteria begin to die off (usually from high organic loads caused by the undetected death of an organism), Stability® simply works harder and grows faster! The strains function in fresh or saltwater. Stability® contains both nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria, a blend found in no other product.



I have studied biotechnology and this is a great pile of horse blahblahblahblah they are selling! They are claiming to have some form of super advanced (genetically modified???) uber bacteria to add to your aquarium and try to tell you your ordinaire run of the mill bacteria of both the competion and found in nature are weak, pathetic and fragile. This isn't true. Bacteria are hardy and can adapt to a wide range of conditions. And even if the above was true... all they are selling are denitrifying bacteria to easily/more quickly populate your filter and cycle your tank. But guess what... your tank is already cycled and you have literally billions of denitrifying bacteria in your filter media (and the substrate of your tank). It's more than likely that these bacteria sold by Seachem are either the same as there are already found in your filter or a specific hardy variant enabling it to survive for long periods of time in the capsules. But what this tells me is that these hardy bacteria are tougher and this always comes at a price: slower growth speeds. If you were to add these to your aquarium, they will be outcompeted by the fastest growing bacteria already present in your filter... "development for over a decade" you say? Try evolution of literally billions of years ...

I beg you to not waste money on this product.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Ooops I'm thinking 'Cat Amongst the Pigeons' here!! Shame I have already got it, the great news is I got it for free as a 'reward' so no harm done...

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## DivZero

Well, adding this wont benefit you. But you can always get/start a new aquarium


----------



## REDSTEVEO

I'm always a sucker for a good advertising spiel The details on the website got me...

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Sunday - Maintenance Step 2.

Well today I bit the bullet and removed most if not all the Eleocharis from the tank. A fair few bits of substrate support came out with it. I pruned the Monte Carlos to within an inch of its life, the damn thing was about three inches thick, no wonder there was a flow problem around it. I also removed some smaller pieces of rock from around the base of the hillock, they were not adding anything to the look and just took up space and reduced the flow so they are out.

I regrouped some of the Staurgyrene and some of the Altanantheri Reinecki then leveled the sand, siphoned out about 80 litres of water with the muck resulting as a result of the removal of the Eleocharis.

Topped up the water, cranked up the Co2 added Flourish Excel and now am waiting for the water to clear. I will take some photos tomorrow when things have settled down.

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## DivZero

Where are the pictures?  

Everything still running stable since the blackout?


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi DivZero,

Sorry no pictures yet, still waiting for things to settle down. I came home from work today and all the discus were out looking for food, which is a first, it is normally only one or two of them! I have got some more plants coming this week, maybe tomorrow. So I will take a couple of pictures of how it looks now since the big trim and a few after the new plants have gone in.

I am even thinking of removing the rest of the Monte Carlos now, it is too thick, traps muck and doesn't really do anything for the look of the scape. So already after two months since it was planted I am rethinking the scape in terms of the fish in there.

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Just been feeding the discus so I thought I may as well take a couple of photos while I'm at it.

Here you go!

The Brown Diatomous algae is still present in places but I think I am on top of it, like I said some more of the Monte Carlos is going to have to go.










You can still see some of the diatomous algae on the leaves of thsi plant...





This is how thick the Monte Carlos is...









Some recovery here...





Discus looking for the Californian Blackworms...









Cheers,

Steve


----------



## flygja

Some Otos should help with your diatoms.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

flygja said:


> Some Otos should help with your diatoms.



Hi I have got 7 x Ottos, 2 x L-Plecs and a Golden Nugget Plec plus the shrimp. I thought these would be enough, but obviously not.

Thanks for suggesting any way.

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi All,

Some good news and some not so good news. The good news is I think I have finally got the brown diatoms on the back foot at last and things are looking better. The not so good news is I noticed over the last few days one or two of my discus looking a bit dark and slightly off their food so yesterday I decided to dose my tank with Kusuri Wormer Plus. I have used this before with no problems and all the discus were fine after a few days and eating back to normal.

At 11pm last night everything looked fine. I came home from work today and found one discus dead with a strange looking round brown coloured disc around the belly area on both sides. It looked like the type of mark left by a burn from say being trapped against a heater.

Anyway I checked all the other discus and they all looked fine and came out for food when I offered it. I fished the discus out and examined it. I decided to have a look inside the belly to see what was in it. Inside was just a brown disgustingly bad foul smelling mush. Here are some photographs to give you an idea. If anyone has any ideas what caused this please let me know.

Thanks,

Steve.









None of the other fish were affected.


----------



## Crossocheilus

I'm afraid I can't offer any helpful advice or incite, just sympathy. It's always a shame when a fish dies, and its often worse when the cause is unresolved. However you are getting on top of the diatoms and the tank is looking great, so that's something to be happy about. 

Best of luck with finding the cause and keep persevering, you'll get their eventually mate.


----------



## Edvet

If all the rest of the fish are happy, eating and have good looking feaces it probably is just an individual problem (to much stress from moving made an underlying  disease/problem apparent). Always be carefull with dosing the whole tank without realy identifying the problem. If the individual is the problem a) move it to a small quarantine tank (50x50x50cm will do) and treat it in there or b) treat the animal with medicated feed  or c) forcefeed it with some medication


----------



## Lindy

The brown mush is probably down to the bacteria in the gut breaking down the intestines after death and not some horrible disease.
Sorry you lost one


----------



## REDSTEVEO

It is definitely not a burn from a heater. My heater is inside the Eheim Thermal Filter. I am thinking if the discus did have worms and the Kusuri Wormer Plus killed them inside the discus, maybe the bacteria turned the stomach to acid and burned the skin around the stomach area??

Thanks,

Steve.


----------



## Edvet

It looks to be flubendazol, that should be safe. The stomach is already acid.
I wouldn't worrie or try to do a diagnosis on an external symptom. The rest is healthy and eating.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Well guys,

The battle against the brown diatomous algae is just about over, and dare I say it looks like it has been won. I have had to have a rethink on the plants and also take some pretty drastic action. Firstly I have removed practically all of the Eleocharis Hair grass, the original bunches I planted I have removed and just left the odd bit of new growth which is spread quite thinly reaching into the sand at the front of the tank. This doesn't seem to be affected and doesn't catch or accumulate any debris in the tank. I have replaced in parts the Eleocharis with Echinodorus Tennellus which seems to be doing really well.

The next thing to go was the Monte Carlos, it was just melting underneath and not rooting properly even though I was trimming it. I have also removed a few pieces of rock that were not adding anything to the look of the tank. I have removed these to make room for more plants and fill in the gaps in the substrate. This will help increase the bio mass and stop the Corys stirring up the Amazonia Soil.

Now comes the biggy. In the last seven days I have done three 50% water changes and one 80% water change. And here is the other shock news, I have not added any chemicals whatsoever. I have stopped adding the Easy Carbo and the Flourish Excel, and...stopped adding the EI Ferts in the form of Macro Nutrients or TMC + Micro nutrients.

Yes, thats right absolutely nothing apart from Co2. Why have I done this I can hear you asking. Well I was at the Green Machine last weekend having a chat with my mate Jim about the diatomous algae. After some long discussion and hard discussion, the advice was to do a complete Water Column Reboot, get the water completely back to its basic element of H20 with nothing added.

The thought process behind this was based on the Aquatic Triangle of Water, Light, and Nutrients. By a simple process of elimination we decided that there was nothing wrong with the water change regime, the water was going through a HMA filter and the filtration in the tank was sufficient, the Eheim PlantGro tubes and the Guisemann Aqua Flora Tubes are more than adequate to provide enough quality light for a planted tank. So there was just the final part of the triangle, the nutrients.

Jim knows I have been using EI Dosing methods and he knows if you get the balance right people are getting good results with it, so no real argument there. However Jim is a firm believer that if the balance isn't right, it can cause you all sort of problems. So between us we decided to do a trial, an experiment to prove one way or another what was causing my problems.

The reason for the high volume and high frequency water changes was to completely remove everything from the water column until the water was neutral, i.e. absolutely no Nitrates, phosphates, or trace of any kind whatsover. Each time I did the water change I tested the Nitrate, Nitrite and Ammonia levels. I always had zero ammonia and zero nitrite levels, but the phosphates and nitrates were always off the scale, so I kept doing the water changes until the tests came up bright yellow instead of dark orange bordering on dark red.

Once I got the water to this stage we agreed on doing a trial using half dose only of Tropica Balanced Fertiliser which basically means 25 ml once a week, adding some Sera Mineral salts and some Sera KH plus to buffer the PH and make sure the CO2 was being triggered. Keep the lighting period to 6 hours maximum with only one set of lights on for the first week.

It is early days but so far things are looking very good, the plants have started to pearl again, the discus fish are out a lot more and there is no sign of any diatomous algae, any that was still in the tank has died, the staurgyrene is showing signs of recovery and the altananthera reineckii mini is starting to flourish again.

So what was the problem? I don't think it is fair to say the blame lies solely with EI Dosing, I firmly believe that I got the dosing regime completely wrong, and most probably was not getting the mixture of the dry ferts in the right proportion, and then probably overdosing the tank. I know EI is supposed to be Estimative Index, but in my case I am sure I was putting a mixture in that was far too high in concentration.

So for the time being I am going to give this a month with the Tropica Fertiliser, standard large water change once a week and monitor the situation to see how it goes. I have not taken any photos yet, but I wll try and post some up at the end of each week so we can see for ourselves the difference it makes and monitor the results.

Cheers and thanks to everyone who has helped and given advice so far, even if I didn't always follow it

Steve.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,





REDSTEVEO said:


> Yes, thats right absolutely nothing apart from Co2............By a simple process of elimination we decided that there was nothing wrong with the water change regime, the water was going through a HMA filter and the filtration in the tank was sufficient, the Eheim PlantGro tubes and the Guisemann Aqua Flora Tubes are more than adequate to provide enough quality light for a planted tank. So there was just the final part of the triangle, the nutrients..... Each time I did the water change I tested the Nitrate, Nitrite and Ammonia levels. I always had zero ammonia and zero nitrite levels, but the phosphates and nitrates were always off the scale, so I kept doing the water changes until the tests came up bright yellow instead of dark orange bordering on dark red........Once I got the water to this stage we agreed on doing a trial using half dose only of Tropica Balanced Fertiliser which basically means 25 ml once a week, adding some Sera Mineral salts and some Sera KH plus to buffer the PH and make sure the CO2 was being triggered. Keep the lighting period to 6 hours maximum with only one set of lights on for the first week.


First the normal disclaimer that I've never used added CO2 or EI, and I can't see a time when I ever will, but....

If you have reduced the nutrients down to nothing you can turn off the CO2, mainly because the plant mass won't deplete as much CO2 from the water column as they would when they were in active growth. Although the plants will have stored some excess nutrients within their tissues they won't be able to make use of the extra  CO2, mainly because at least one of the mineral nutrients will be limiting growth.

You honestly can't rely on test kits, no-one really knows what they are measuring. Basically if you are a water company with a dedicated lab. and millions of pounds of equipment (ISE, AAS, GLC, HPLC, MS) you can measure a specific set of water parameters accurately. Even bodies like the Environment Agency don't rely on chemical testing (for nitrate you need to use cadmium reduction colorimetry), or portable kit like ion selective electrodes, they look at a combination of Biotic Index and 5 day BOD test to assess the broader category of "water quality". 

You can use a TDS meter (so really a conductivity meter) to give you an accurate measure of the total number of ions in solution. If you start with RO you have ~5 microS conductivity (or 3 ppm TDS) and as you add any salts conductivity will rise in a linear manner. Personally I don't routinely measure anything, but I occasionally dip the conductivity meter into the tanks in the lab., and into the rain water that I use for water changes. 

Because I keep soft water fish and have hard, but clean, tap water, I can mix together rain, tap and RO water to keep the tanks at about 70 - 120 microS (60 ppm TDS). I choose ~100 microS because it seems to work OK and it is an average value for our rain-water over the year. In the summer the rain water might be ~130 microS and in the winter ~50 microS, which would mean cutting the water with RO or tap respectively. The only time I've ever run out of rain water I just mixed RO and tap to ~100 microS.

It doesn't matter what fertilizer you use, you can use a calculator like the one on Ardjuna's <"Nature Aquarium" web site>,  or <"James' Planted Tank"> to adjust your nutrients to any level you like. If you really do find a sweet spot measure the conductivity over the week and then use that as indicator. I originally started intending to do this, but soon realized that I'm too shoddy a fish keeper to keep this up successfully for long.

It was at this point that I became aware that I it made more sense to use the health of the plants as a measure of tank health, and that if I used a floating plant it took CO2 availability out of the equation. 

If the plants are a healthy green and in relatively slow growth things are fine, if they are yellow and not growing I need to add some nutrients, and if they are deep green, growing well  and looking extremely healthy I need to measure the conductivity, and if it is raised, change some more water and look for the reason (dead fish etc). 

Once the tank is grown in and the plant mass is fairly large you don't get much algae with this approach, and you definitely don't get rapid algae "outbreaks".

cheers Darrel


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi Darrel,

Thanks very much for the insight and useful comments about the Co2, that is advice I will follow. Regarding TDS, I measured this using a fairly bog standard TDS Meter I bought and the tank water measures 237 TDS, no idea what that is in Microsiemens though. The TDS of my tap water is 90 TDS, zero DKH and GH. I am using the HMA Filter, do I really need an RO filter?

The only other question I have is whether or not to add iron, (Easy Ferro) for the plants especially the red plants?

Otherwise I am quite happy to leave well enough alone.

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 
Steve 237 ppm TDS would equate to about 400 microS. It would depend on what constant the meter uses to convert the conductivity that it measures into an estimated ppm TDS, but it is usually 0.62 (although a few meters use 0.50). Cheap TDS meter are OK, and usually give an accurate reading. 

If your tap water is naturally soft the water company will add both orthophosphate (PO4---) and NaOH to the water. This is to reduce the risk of lead (Pb) and copper (Cu) dissolving from old pipes, the phosphate forms insoluble compounds with most metals, and the NaOH addition raises the pH. 

Because this gives you soft alkaline water, with-out any carbonate buffering or dGH, you will need to buffer the tap water up a little bit. You can use a propriety mix, or make your own from "Epsom salts" (MgSO4.7H2O), calcium chloride (CaCl) and potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3). The other option is a small amount of "Oyster shell chick grit" in a bag in the filter, it doesn't give you fine control but it works OK., and it is a cheap option. You would be adding magnesium (Mg) to the water anyway with your fertilizer addition.

Whether you use the RO filter is really up to you. Because your water is soft you would get a high yield to waste ratio, and you wouldn't need much RO to cut your HMA treated tap with.  I'd be tempted to go 50:50 HMA:RO. 

Plants don't need much iron (Fe), if it is in your trace mix you don't need to add any extra.  

cheers Darrel


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hello Darrell,

Dare I say it, but the tank is looking better today than it has for some time. Maybe at last I have confirmed what was wrong. Thanks for the tips on the salts and ferts above, I have added some and got a really stable DKH of 4 and PH of 6.8. The thing is my GH readings are still coming out as zero, do I need to do something about this?

Pictures to follow soon.

Thanks,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi All,

Sorry for the delay in getting some new photographs up on this journal. A little thing called 'work' and 'Christmas Shopping' has got in the way of me keeping this up to date.

You will be pleased to know that the 'Back to Basics' plan has worked. It has proved 100% that I was getting things wrong with my EI Dosing regime. Not saying that EI Dosing is wrong, just that if as in my case you get the calculations wrong problems can occur. Since my last post I have carried on with the new regime of one 50% water change per week using my HMA filter and only adding SERA KH Plus and the Tropica Fertiliser I got from Jim at the Green Machine at 30mls per week. I just need to work out the best way of buffering the GH which is still low.

The overall effect of this is that all algae, not just the brown diatomous algae has completely dissapeared. As well as the ammonia and nitrite readings being zero, my nitrate readings are showing yellow to light orange which is less than 12.5 mg/litre. Previously the readings for nittrate and phosphate were completely off the scale, and I thought this was normal.  Just adding the Tropica Fertiliser once a week after the water change is working for me at the moment, and I can have the lights on longer which gets the plants photosynthesising nicely.

I have still got the internal UV Filter going inside the aquarium, but to be honest I am only using this now for the oxygenating feature at night time. I am not convinced that the UV has had anything to do with the recovery, but it certainly hasn't done any harm.

So here we go, photos as promised. These are the photos one week after going back to basics, there are more to come from this week. Any white fuzzy bits are the oxygen bubbles in the water

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Just a few from this week.

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi All,

Just a quick update. Last week I removed the internal UV filter from the tank to see whether there was any change. Within two days I noticed something about the water quality. Despite doing big weekly water changes the water had a different look about it, not as clear as it has been for the last few weeks. Now I can't say if this is definitley down to the removal of the UV element of the equation, or if it was the removal of the additional oxygenating feature that came with the filter.

I did add two air stones and connected them up to an air pump which came on via a timer at around midnight, but this does not seem to be having the same effect as the oxygenating feature that came with the internal UV filter, so a bit of a conundrum really.

On another note I have been scouring the forums and reading anything on the internet about the Twinstar Super S with its fancy features. I can get it for £139.00 from the Green Machine, or £149.00 from All Pond Solutions. I know the Iceman has got one of these in his tank, is anyone else using one and how is it going, recommended or not. I am either going to get one or put the internal UV back in because things are not the same regardless of whether it is the UV or the oxygenating feature.

Thanks,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

My missus has asked me what I want from Santa this year and I am torn between the Twinstar Super S at £139.00, or a V2 Pure RO system with built in TDS meter at around £130.00, or an Arcadia Stretch LED light at around £100.00.

I have got a HMA Filter which I hook up to the mixer tap in the kitchen, turn the thermostat down on the combi boiler to 29 degrees and do my water changes with that. It is quick and easy but not entirely convinced on the water quality coming through the HMA filter though, that's why I was thinking of the RO Unit. I am not keen on the amount of water wasted from RO Units or the hassle of filling up containers, heating it to the right temperature, humping them over the tank and pouring them into the tank.

I am having second thoughts on the Arcadia Stretch, the lighting I have got is more than adequate, I think I just wanted a different light spectrum with a sharper crisper look, hence the thought of going down the LED route.

So that just leaves the Twinstar??

A good PDF document with loads aof FAQ's can be found here.

http://www.allpondsolutions.co.uk/media/pdf/TWINSTAR.pdf


----------



## Edvet

Perhaps you can ask Santa for a raincheck/delay, just to wait and see how it all works out. You don't need RO or more light, and the twinstar for me feels like a panacea ("a mythical cue-all").Better to wait and see if you realy need it or just want a new toy, just my 2 €cts


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Edvet said:


> Perhaps you can ask Santa for a raincheck/delay, just to wait and see how it all works out. You don't need RO or more light, and the twinstar for me feels like a panacea ("a mythical cue-all").Better to wait and see if you realy need it or just want a new toy, just my 2 €cts



Cheers Edvet,

Finally decided my lighting is sufficient and the HMA filter seems to be doing okay for now so it looks like the Twinstar Super S it is.

I will keep everyone updated on how it goes.

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Decided it was time for a few new photographs so everyone can see how things are progressing since I set the water column back to zero. Still haven't added any EI Ferts, just sticking to the half dose liquid Tropica fertiliser once a week.

Nitrate less than 12mg/liter
Nitrite zero
Ammonia zero
GH up to 6DGH
KH up to 4DKH
PH 6.66
TDS 125
Water Temp 28 degrees

Here are some photos from today. (some cheeky discus getting in the way)














Excuse the white dots it O2 from the plants!





























Cheers everyone,

And if I am not back on here before, I hope everyone has a Merry Christmas and an Algae free New Year!


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi All,

Santa came early this year and brought me a Twinstar Super S from Jim and Santas little helpers at The Green Machine. It is installed and working fine, time will tell before I know if it has any effect or not. I will update after Christmas. 

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi all,

Sorry there has been no updates for a while. As probably everyone else its been back to work this week and been mad busy. Quiet over Christmas and New Year.

Just got back after being away with work for the best part of a week and left the missus in charge of looking after things for the first time, feeding etc.. Sadly the first thing I noticed was 1 x dead discus floating at the top of the tank. By the look of it, it looked like it had been dead for a day or two, it could have even have even happened on the day I left. When I fished it out it absolutely stank, and yet it had not affected the water parameters, i.e. Nitrate etc. and all the other fish seemed perfectly fine. My wife was pretty cut up about it because she hadn't noticed it. I explained to her that it wasn't her fault and it could just have easily happened if I had been home.

So from an original starting point of ten discus in total, I now have six, three Blue Diamonds and three Red Curipea. They are all doing really well and the Blue Diamonds have virtually doubled in size since I bought them.

The question now is do I stick with six or add any more. I have seen two fantastic Blue Leopard Skin Discus at the branch of Maidenhead Aquatics in Chester which are the same size as the fish that I have got now so I am tempted to get them.

Generally the rest of the tank is doing well, absolutely no algae problems whatsoever and the plants are doing really well now. This is probably something to do with the fact that I have turned the reflectors so that not as much light is going in to the tank and I have reduced the lighting period to five and a half hours, so they come on with a timer at 3pm and go off at 8.30pm.

The Twinstar Super S is working perfectly and seems to be doing a real good job in oxygenating the water, so all in all things are not too bad.

I will try and take a few photos this weekend and post them up when I get time.

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## DivZero

Sorry to hear about the discus Steve. But great to hear the algae issues you've been having seem to be resolved and your plants are doing good. 

Daniel


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Cheers Daniel,

The algae issues are something that everyone gets and not everyone is lucky enough to be able to get rid of them. Persistence and more persistence combined with shed loads of determination got there in the end. No matter how experienced we think we are, if you take your eye off the ball the algae takes advantage. At least everyone can learn form our experiences.

Steve.


----------



## ADA

Have you lost 4 or did you sell a couple?


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Very sadly I lost 4 in six months. Scroll back through the journal to see the photos and what happened. In retrospect I bought them too small and had a hard time getting them to take any other food as they had been reared on exclusively beef heart. The good thing now is the six that I have got take anything I put in the tank, and I mean everything, i.e. Sera San Flake Food, Tetra Discus Granules, Freeze dried bloodworm, Freeze dried Californian Blackworm, New Era Discus Pellets, the New Era Plec pellets. I use Vitazin Vitamin liquid on all the dry food. Once a week I give them a treat of the Discus Essentials Beef Heart which is really good quality.

This means that if I did decide to put any other discus in with them they would go for the food by learning from the discus I have now. Eventually they are going to be large enough to start pairing off. I am sort of hoping that one of the Blue Diamonds will pair off with one of the Red Curipea at which point I will probably sell off the remaining discus and just keep the pair.

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi All,

Sorry only just got around to uploading some new photos to Photobucket. Not sure if there is much difference between these and the ones posted up last time. The only way to see is to compare them, so here goes.

The full Tank shot.




A closer shot of the middle section. The Twinstar Super S has kicked in and there is O2 flowing all around the tank in most of these pictures so I apologise for the white dots on most of the pictures.





I replaced almost all of the Eleocharis hair grass with Echinodorus tennellus which sems to be doing much better.




There are quite a few Crypts growing now some sprouting up where I didn't plant them by spreading their roots.




One of the three remaining Blue Diamonds out and about. The mark on the head as been there since I bought it so nothing to worry about.




End shot of the tank from the left.




Blue Diamond foraging for food as usual. They eat anything I put in the tank now!




Bit dissappointed that the Staurgyrene is not doing well.




Still doing the big water changes and only using half dose of the Tropica Liquid Fertiliser. I don't think I will be going back to using EI again in a hurry, but if i do I will be either reducing the quantities in the solution I mix up, or cutting down the days it gets dosed. I got it badly wrong last time and I won't make the same mistake again.

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi all,
A quick update. Plants seem to be going ballistic at the moment with a real growth surge. I am wondering how much of this is down to the Twinstar Super S and the superb oxygenation it gives to the water. Co2 levels are stable at 6.25 and nice green colour on the drop checkers. Just waiting for timers to switch the lights on and take a few photos

Cheers Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

I took these photos today just as the lights came on to catch the tank and the plants in a different light which I think the red colours really stand out. At least that's what it looked like looking at them close up, I'm not sure if this shows in the photos though.

Thanks,

Steve.

A full tank shot waiting for the lights to come on. Sorry about the reflections!





A couple of full tank shots after the first set of lights have been on for about five minutes.









A few close ups from different angles.









Here you can see the Twinstar Super S Kicking in.










Can't stop the Corys from rummaging around amongst the Altananthera Reinecki Mini and kicking the Amazonia Soil to the front of the tank. This causes the plants to lift sometimes and I finish up having to re-plant them.

Some shots of the discus thinking they are about to be fed, they come right out when ever I walk in the room and they eat out of my hand.






The Blue Diamonds are always out first, the Red Curipea are a little more cautious so I am going to have to sit in front of the tank with the camera ready to get some shots of them, but it will be worth it because they are really colouring up nicely now. There are some shrimp in this tank somewhere but the only time I ever see them is while I am doing a water change and then they are out and about.

Issawlgettinabitjungly but the Discus seem to like it.

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi all,
Just done my weekly 50% water change using the HMA Filetr straight from the tap with the water on the combi boiler turned down to 30 degrees. Still not gone back to EI yet, just a half dose of Tropica Liquid fertiliser. Did some pruning of leaves etc. While doing this I noticed some strange critturs crawling about on the leaves of the floating plants and also on the broad leaves of the emersed Amazon Sword plants.

They sort of looked like blackfly aphids but smaller. I've no idea where they came from or how they manged to introduce themselves into my tank. I don't suppose anyone has any suggestions on what they might be. I couldn't take any photos with my camera worth posting they were that small.

Anyway needless to say I washed as many as I could off the floating plants, trimmed back the emersed leaves on the sword plants and then gave them a really good spraying with some DEET Flykiller and some other pesticide I found in the shed, I think it was DDT or something like that just to make sure.



Only joking! I spread the guey stuff from some old flypapers onto the leaves instead.

I have put some photos up taken just before the water change, in a day or two I will post some more when the discus are out and about. Still trying to get some good shots of the Red Curipea but no luck yet.

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## Greenfinger2

Hi Red, Looks stunning


----------



## BigTom

REDSTEVEO said:


> While doing this I noticed some strange critturs crawling about on the leaves of the floating plants and also on the broad leaves of the emersed Amazon Sword plants.
> 
> They sort of looked like blackfly aphids but smaller. I've no idea where they came from or how they manged to introduce themselves into my tank. I don't suppose anyone has any suggestions on what they might be. I couldn't take any photos with my camera worth posting they were that small.



Almost certainly springtails Steve (Collembola spp.). They're just about the most numerous and widespread order of animals on earth (more so than insects), yet hardly anyone has ever heard of them. You get long termite-looking ones and little round blob-shaped ones. Harmless fish food 

Here's a photo I took of one of the larger termite-looking ones under a scanning electron microscope with it's 'spring' (furcata) extended. They use these to bounce out of danger when disturbed -





And one of the blob shaped ones (photo from Wiki commons) -


----------



## kirk

Look like a white 



nicky minage.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Greenfinger2 said:


> Hi Red, Looks stunning



Thanks Greenfinger, to be honest the photos don't really do it justice, its much better close up. I have even got my own chair next to it so I can chillax in front of it.
If anyone is ever passing by this way feel free to drop in and have shufty, just let me know before you come.
Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

BigTom said:


> And one of the blob shaped ones (photo form Wiki commons) -



Thanks ever so much Big Tom,

They definitely look like the ones in the second picture only a greyish black colour, not yellow or white.

They don't swim very well and I haven't seen the fish eating them. Any idea how they got there in the first place?

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## BigTom

They just 'turn up'. Probably came in on some of the floaters or might have hitched a lift if you've been in the garden or whatever.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Okay, the floating plants have been there for about six months with no sign of them, so I guess they must have come from the garden.

By the way, where did you get that !"£$%^&ng hat!!

Cheers,
Steve


----------



## BigTom

I made it out of a large cardboard box and half a roll of duct tape. You find your entertainment where you can when stuck on a remote Scottish island in the depths of winter.


----------



## Edvet

BigTom said:


> remote Scottish island


 Monster hunting?


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Edvet said:


> Monster hunting?


Killer Mice. <"St. Kilda update.....">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## REDSTEVEO

BigTom said:


> Almost certainly springtails Steve (Collembola spp.). They're just about the most numerous and widespread order of animals on earth (more so than insects), yet hardly anyone has ever heard of them. You get long termite-looking ones and little round blob-shaped ones. Harmless fish food
> 
> Here's a photo I took of one of the larger termite-looking ones under a scanning electron microscope with it's 'spring' (furcata) extended. They use these to bounce out of danger when disturbed -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And one of the blob shaped ones (photo from Wiki commons) -



Cheers Tom, your photography is stunning, what the "furcata" is that! It is giving me nightmares to think I was touching these with my hands.

PS Shame about the hat!


----------



## REDSTEVEO

'The Full Monty' One Year On!

Well folks it's surprising how time flies! It has been almost a year since I bought the Eheim Incpiria 400 litre aquarium from the Abyss Aquatic Warehouse and started my journal 'The Full Monty'. In that time I have become a grandad and the little fellah is 1 year old this month, honestly where does the time go?

After doing a massive water change and some serious pruning yesterday I decided I would show some before and after photographs to show the results of my handy work. After removing what looked like a bucket full of plants, mainly Echinodorus Tenellus which had more runners than the London Marathon, and trimming the stem plants, it looks a bit tidier now (I think). 

After one year and fifty two weeks of 50% water changes = 10,400 litres of water, good job I am not on a water meter

I also thought it would be good to do a step by step bit to show how it has evolved over the last twelve months, so here goes.

After lots of gentle persuasion I finally managed to persuade my wife to let me knock a wall down to make room for where I wanted the new tank to go.





Then get the floor tiled where the new tank was going to sit.





Then through the subtle art of subterfuge I knocked up a simulation of how big the tank was going to be, (I hoped)









Then after lots of research I finally stumbled on this, the Eheim Incpiria 400 liter tank at the Abyss Aquatic Warehouse. All In had to do now was convince my wife this is the one I (_we_) should get!





This is it after arriving safely and installed in its new home complete with built in dry weir and very nice sliding smoked black lids.





This is it after I had sweated buckets trying to stick the black backing on. Still got about 2 gallons of JBL backing glue left! 






This is it filled up, and the start of a six week cycling period, two weeks of which I was on holiday. Complete with ADA Substrates including Penac P, Penac W,
Powersand, Amazonia Soil and powder topped around the front with La Plata Sand.






Back off holiday and ready to start planting after a water change.





Water a lot clearer after big water change.




The first lot of plants going in.
























Not much happening after a week.





Some very expensive rock used here which was completely unnecessary as eventually the plants grow in you can't see the rock anyway!









Two weeks and plants starting to spread.





Then I got the dreaded hair algae, filamentous brown diatom algea and the usual battle began to combat it. I finished up ripping out all the hair grass and the Monte Carlos and replacing it with Echinodorus Tennellus.





After experimenting with UV, O2, Co2, EI, lots of light, low light, no light to black out, massive water changes and a combination of sheer bloody determination I managed to sort out the algae problems. 





The messing about with 'Flow' rates, direction and spray bars!





After several adjustments and introduction of all the fish and several new plants this is how it looked yesterday before the water change and the trim.

















The Echinodrus Tennellus spreading everywhere.













Now after removing a lot of Tenellus and a trim of the stem plants, removing some dead leaves and a huge water change.

Before I did the water change I cleaned out the Eheim 650 Thermal T3 Filter and scrubbed out all the pipework. I also switched the Eheim easy connectors around so that I can remove the pipes and filter much easier. Now I have got all six green lights showing on the flow display instead of only three as before. This was mainly due to the amount of clag built up in the pipes.





Within an hour of the filters going back on and the lights on, the Blue Diamond Discus are out and the plants are beginning to pearl.
























Well folks, that's just about it on the Full Monty for now, I hope you enjoyed reading it as much as I enjoyed writing it. The next update will probably be when the Discus are showing signs of breeding behaviour!!

The only questions I have now is whether to experiment with an Arcadia Stretch LED Lighting unit and whether to start using an RO unit for my water changes in the future.

Thanks for looking,

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## greenmac75

Steve I had the stretch, I wouldn't bother your tank looks great.


----------



## Greenfinger2

Hi Steve, Great journal enjoyed reading from start to finish 

And fifty weeks later you have a Exquisite Aqauascape   Fifty two weeks of 50% water changes = 10,400 litres of water  Wow How it add up over time.

Good luck on the Discus breeding Hope all go's well  Looking forward to the photos.


----------



## Lindy

I love the way it has grown in and looks more jungly but with fab colours too. Well done! That tank and stand is stunning


----------



## Edvet

Looking healthy!
With 20/20 hindsight: what would you have done differently??


----------



## REDSTEVEO

greenmac75 said:


> Steve I had the stretch, I wouldn't bother your tank looks great.



Cheers Greenmac, maybe for once I will take someone else's advice and save my money. The only thing I miss about LED's is the shimmer effect and the night time function.

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

ldcgroomer said:


> I love the way it has grown in and looks more jungly but with fab colours too. Well done! That tank and stand is stunning



Cheers idcgroomer I like it very much also and hopefully it will produce many more aquascapes in the future!!

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Edvet said:


> Looking healthy!
> With 20/20 hindsight: what would you have done differently??



Cheers Edvet,

With 20/20 hindsight what would I have done differently?? Wow where do I start!


Not bought expensive Mountain Rock it was not necessary, no point in having it if you can't see it!
Not bothered with creating the 30cm hillock, I think it takes up too much water volume and less room for the fish to swim around in.
Kept to a much simpler planting theme in keeping with a discus biotope.
Bought adult or at least almost adult discus instead of 2.5 inch discus, the theory was good based on past experience but the experience this time around was different.
Maybe bought one large matched pair of discus instead.
Bought less Rummy Nose tetras and Diamond Neons than I did.
Worked out a way to produce, store, heat, store and pump RO water into the tank instead of using HMA Filtered water.
Maybe consider using condensation trays, removing the smoked glass lids and using a hanging pendant light instead of the tubes?
I can see over a period of time the plants being reduced in this tank, the number of small shoaling fish will probably decrease and the hillock will gradually be reduced until it is no more, finishing up with what I originally intended, a simple classic looking planted Discus Tank.





Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi All,

Just a quick Easter update on 'The Full Monty'

I think the clocks going forward have had an effect on the plant growth in the tank

A few pictures taken yesterday below.

The other update is that the Easter Bunny brought me a TMC V2 Pure 100 Advanced RO System!! As ever, always wanting to get things as perfect as possible I decided to go back to RO Water. Now I just need to work out how to get the stuff into the tank without humping 30 liter containers about.

One perfectly good HMA Filter for sale - bargain! 

At the moment I have got the water running straight into the tank with the water siphoning out of the tank on one side into the garden and the waste water also running into the garden. Yes the missus is away again at the moment!

Here are some pictures. Enjoy!

Stem plants fizzing away, getting a bit leggy though so wil be trimming soon.





Staurgyrene starting to look better since I added the substrate fertiliser. Still got some leaves with bit of algae on but trimming them off every time I do the water change.





Reinecki Mini really starting to do well since I added the substrate fertiliser tablets.





Blue Diamond Discus with a full belly, looking for somewhere to do a pooo..




There are six Discus in this tank, looks great when they all come out together!





Changed the photo period on my lighting recently and upped the CO2. The new style UP Inline CO2 diffuser was leaking like hell so for the time being I have gone back to two of my old glass in tank diffusers. It seems to have made a difference because even the Reinecki Mini is starting to pearl!





All plants have had some fertiliser root tabs pushed in around the base and they seem to have started utilising it pretty well now, especially the green plants.





My favourite time, Discus coming out for a nosey around!





Feeding time! Discus Essential beef heart and Californian Blackworm, they love it!





These Blue Diamonds were only two inches big when I bought them, now they are pushing towards five inches easily.













My new toy! TMC V2 Pure with built in Water Pressure gauge and built in TDS meter showing TDS reading of water going in and change when it come out. At the moment it reads TDS 128 going in and TDS 3 on the way out.





Water draining out on the left, RO water going in on the right.









Happy easter everyone,

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## parotet

This tank looks much better Steve, amazing to see how you have sorted out all the problems!
Just one question: am I wrong or are you recycling the tank water through the RO unit? Is this common? Is it like a drop by drop WC system?... I've always used tap water and all this is quite new to me.

Jordi


----------



## Sk3lly

Gorgeous fish and beautifully healthy plants.

Great tank. Jealous!!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Edvet

I don't think he's recycling (quite sure he's not). He's adding RO water one side and siphoning off on the other side.
One of the reasons i like an overflow in a tank is i can add RO water 24/7 without having to keep an eye out.


----------



## Tim Harrison

Great posts, fantastic images of a great tank, they took a while to load due to the pants internet around here, but well worth the wait. I especially like the hindsight post...


----------



## REDSTEVEO

parotet said:


> This tank looks much better Steve, amazing to see how you have sorted out all the problems!
> Just one question: am I wrong or are you recycling the tank water through the RO unit? Is this common? Is it like a drop by drop WC system?... I've always used tap water and all this is quite new to me.
> 
> Jordi


Hi Jordi,

No Edvet is right I am not recycling the tank water back through the RO unit. I tried it once using a pressure pump, far too much pfaffing about. I let the tank water drain into the garden on one side, and let the fresh RO water run in from the other.

The tank water has a TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) of 220 and I am trying to get that down, using the HMA Filter isn't achieving that, that's why I have gone for the RO unit. Takes a while using this method though, far better filling loads of containers with about 200 to 300 litres then drain the tank and refill with the RO water, throuble is this can be too much of a change in one go, plus getting it all to the right temperature is a pain in the bum. So little by little until the water is how it should be.

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Sk3lly said:


> Gorgeous fish and beautifully healthy plants.
> 
> Great tank. Jealous!!!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


HiSk3lly,

Thanks for the compliments, it's really appreciated. Jealousy is a good thing! It makes us strive harder to do better, work harder achieve more!


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Troi said:


> Great posts, fantastic images of a great tank, they took a while to load due to the pants internet around here, but well worth the wait. I especially like the hindsight post...



Hindsight is wonderful, until you realise the mistakes you made, learning from them is even better

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi all,

I got bored watching the Liverpool v Newcastle match on TV so I decided to sit in front of the aquarium instead. And within a few minutes it was obvious there was more going on than on than on the TV so I got my camera out. At last I got some decent shots of the Red Curipeau Discus, in fact some shots of almost all six discus out together, which although I often see, I don't usually have the camera handy when it happens.

I hope you enjoy these few photos of the discus, I also got a shot of a long stalk from one of the plants which looks as if it is about to flower, which is nice.

I must remember next time to switch off the Twinstar Super S before taking the photographs, the white flecks and dashes are the O2 bublles flying round the tank which makes the shots look as if the water is not clean, when in fact it is crystal clear.

























I am hoping this beauty is going to pair off with one of the Red Curipeau!





There has been some courtship activity going on between these lot, especially after the lights have gone out and the lamp is on in the corner of the room.





Anyone care to tell me what this is and what it might look like if it flowers?





One shot during a time when the Twinstar Super S was not active.

















Thanks for the really kind comments on previous posts!

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## Rahms

amazing pictures, and so much effort uploading them all! That's some ridiculous pearling.

I'm actually commenting in hope of starting a new page..... It's been a very long time since I had to wait for a page to load. Think its the next post that will do it...


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Cheers Rahms,

Uploading the pictures to Photobucket or Flickr can be a pain but I dont know any other way of doing it.

Good luck with the new project. 
Steve


----------



## Jaybles

Some lovely Discus here. Nice to see them in a properly decorated tank, too.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,
The red wild type Discus are lovely. I much prefer the look of these to any of the bred colour forms.





REDSTEVEO said:


> Anyone care to tell me what this is and what it might look like if it flowers?


Looks like an <"_Echinodorus_ flower spike">. Presumably one with a red leaf (like _Echinodorus_ "Rubin" or "Special Red").

Mick.Dk should be able to give ou a definitive ID.

I assume the flower will be 3 petalled and white in a raceme.

cheers Darrel


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Cheers Darrel,
It is an Echinodorus with red leaves and the bud is splitting into three petals. Will it have to break the surface to flower?

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Jaybles said:


> Some lovely Discus here. Nice to see them in a properly decorated tank, too.



Hi Jaybles, I agree it is great seeing them in a natural planted situation, although some could say this is not exactly the biotope where you would expect to see discus in. I am hoping to see a pairing between two of them and when they spawn you know for definite you are doing something right.

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,





REDSTEVEO said:


> Will it have to break the surface to flower?


 Yes I think it probably will. If it doesn't make the surface it may grow viviparous plants instead.

cheers Darrel


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Thanks Darrel,

It is about two inches away from the surface, large petals growing off sides of stalk now.

Steve


----------



## Jaybles

REDSTEVEO said:


> Hi Jaybles, I agree it is great seeing them in a natural planted situation, although some could say this is not exactly the biotope where you would expect to see discus in. I am hoping to see a pairing between two of them and when they spawn you know for definite you are doing something right.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Steve



Yeah, I'm not really a fan of the typical Discus tank.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Me neither, most of them always seem to look a bit dark and gloomy, sandy bottoms, dark yellow to brown water leaves floating about on the bottom. It maybe natural but doesn't always make for great viewing, so I try to compromise. They seem happy enough at the moment. Just about to post something on a different section on Reverse Osmosis water and the relation toTDS. 

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Some photos of the discus taken with my phone yesterday.














Cheers,

Steve


----------



## luckyjim

The orange/blue one is awesome


----------



## genomecop

REDSTEVEO said:


> Cheers Rahms,
> 
> Uploading the pictures to Photobucket or Flickr can be a pain but I dont know any other way of doing it.
> 
> Good luck with the new project.
> Steve



Morning. Just want to chime in here about photos. I've used every service and highly recommend http://imgur.com/  This truly is the best for uploading and posting to a forum. After you upload, on the right side at the bottom you choose the size you want to post. Above that is a selection of links pertaining to what "site" you want to post for..."forums" ect. You copy the link and thats it. Easy Easy Easy. Check it out.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

luckyjim said:


> The orange/blue one is awesome



Cheers Jim,

This is one of the Red Curipea discus that I bought from Steve Punchard in Great Harwood, Lancashire. The value for money was superb, 4.5 inch discus for £30.00, absolute bargain.

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Thanks genomecop, will do. At the moment I am using photobucket and Flickr.


----------



## Cooperman

Redsteveo, firstly thanks for an entertaining and informative read. I located your thread via a google search as I was researching the potential for using the Incipiria 400 marine for an identical project to yours (planted discus). I've kept them a number of years ago but have for the last 6 years focused on Malawi CIchlids. My question relates not to the fish but the adaptability and suitability of the incipiria 400. My tank will be located in my living room which is on the first floor above my garage and I intend to have the sump filtration system (about another 600 ltrs) located in the garage. I have a Deltec variable wattage/ flow pump which will ce with the head (4m plus friction) between the garage and the tank in the living room above. I have two 250 ltr potable water tanks that for part of the sump system which to which I can alternate my HMA water feed, for semi automated wateri changes, as the wife (out of concern for the carpet) and my back can no longer cope with lugging barrels of water up to the living room. The incipiria tanks inlets / outlets are designed around Eheims 12/16 tubing (I believe) and the holes in the base of the glass only 19mm (I think). As such I'm concerned that I may only get a turn over of 1 - 1.5 tank volumes an hour, limited by the weir and the two gravity drainage tubes set up to run silently. What are your experiences on turn over rates etc please? I know your using a filter and had issues with media quantity but do you get sufficient flow via the single small ID drain? Thanks again for a great thread.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi Cooperman,
Firstly welcome to the forum, I think you will find everything you need here, and thanks for the kind comments on my journal. 

Basically I had the ID drain capped off so I don't use it. I don't have a sump system, I use the dry weir to hide all my pipes and cables etc so there is as little hardware visible as possible. what I can tell you is that there is enough room to fit four lots of 22mm Eheim tubing through the drilled hole at the base of the weir. From these I run two Eheim filters, a big T3 thermal filter and a Professional 2 filter that the co2 is pumped through. There is still room for all the cables for my lights and the Twinstar.

Good luck with the project and I look forward to seeing it on the Ukaps forum.

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi All,

As nearly always happens, through our devoted attention in trying to get our plants to grow, if and when we are successful in what ever methods we employ, EI or no EI, Co2 or no Co2, high tech light, low light tech, etc. eventually the tank reaches a stage where it has reached what I call its, 'Critical Mass' 

This is the point where the tank in terms of its appearance has reached its optimum level. The problem is that this stage is only sustainable for so long before some changes have to be made. This could involve removing plants altogether (which I try to avoid if possible) or sessions of pruning and trimming to keep everything in check. Once pruning begins we can find ourselves looking at a tank that bears no resemblance to how it looked before pruning, so I try to do it in stages and asses after a day or two what still needs to be done, rather than chop it all out and then think...mmmm maybe I should not have cut that bit off!

This week I decided it was time to do some pruning and cutting back, not just because the plants had reached 'Critical Mass' but because aesthetically the balance of what was growing was starting to look out of proportion; and the space for my Discus fish to swim freely about was getting less and less.

Well after the first pruning at the weekend I decided a bit more was neccessary, and last night I set about it. Carried out a big water change at the same time, cleaned the glass, all the usual maintenance...

And what is the point of all this rambling I hear you ask......?

Well, DADADADADADAERAAAA!! I discovered I had some new occupants in my tank that I didn't even know were there! Aaaahh they are so cute I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw them, so far I have only seen about five of them.

So I grabbed my camera and took some photos, very poor photos I might add as the little beggars would not keep still long enough or come close enough to get a good shot. So I have started uploading the photos to photobucket and will be posting them here soon!

Can you guess what they are yet?

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## Rahms

REDSTEVEO said:


> Can you guess what they are yet?



Well I'll be very impressed if they're discus! ...and *very* disappointed if they're snails lol


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Aaaww sorry guys, I have just looked at the photos on Photobucket and they are so crap I am almost too ashamed to post them on here, but here goes anyway.

Hard to spot but this one is sat right in the middle of the green plant in the centre of the picture. Sorry its a bit blurred but for the sharp eyed you can just about make out what it is...









The juvenile delinquents are actually just over half an inch in size, so they have obviously been in there for some time, maybe a month or so. And I have no idea how many eggs the parents must have laid for these five to have survived.

I have got five adult Corydorus Julii and although I have seen them chasing each other around occaisionally I have never seen any eggs; and I was thinking about putting half a coconut shell in there somewhere just in case they wanted somewhere to lay their eggs. I have got two rather large chocolate plecs which may have hoovered up a lot of the eggs. I will be removing the plecs and replacing them with two smaller ones. The large ones are about 5 to 6 inches and if anyone wants them they can have them for free, collection only though!

Below is a link to a website which shows pictures of what the adult Corydorus Julii look like if anyone is interested.

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/...NFH6h8M52Rss72XaWOk96qOj77tL3KNXTUbMVZohoRw44

Here are two pictures of the plant that shot out a long stalk and has since produced three more plants on the end of it which I will be removing soon, free of charge to anyone who can collect them. I was hoping for some white flowers but no joy, although the buds are there.









Thanks for looking.

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Rahms said:


> Well I'll be very impressed if they're discus! ...and *very* disappointed if they're snails lol



Sorry to disappoint you Rahms, but I was almost excited as if they were discus

Steve.


----------



## Rahms

To be fair to you, breeding any fish by accident is impressive! Nicely done

except maybe kribs and livebearers


----------



## REDSTEVEO

I don't know about breeding! I have never studied how difficult or otherwise breeding Corydorus Julii is suppose to be. All I can say is there must have been enough cover for them to survive being eaten or sucked up into the filters.

Steve.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 
Fantastic, you can't beat some free fish.  Are they the true _Corydoras julii_? The fish sold as "C. julii" is usually _<"Corydoras trilineatus_">. I don't know about _C. julii_, but _C. trilineatus_ isn't the easiest _Corydoras_ to raise.  They need soft, clean water for successful egg development. 





REDSTEVEO said:


> Here are two pictures of the plant that shot out a long stalk and has since produced three more plants on the end of it which I will be removing soon, free of charge to anyone who can collect them. I was hoping for some white flowers but no joy, although the buds are there.


Probably developed plantlets, rather than flowers, because it didn't make it to the surface.  When you cut the terminal plantlet off, put it in some shallow water and it may flower.

cheers Darrel


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Thanks Darrel,

I am pretty sure they are the Corydorus Julii or at least that was what it said on the tin when I bought them. I looked at the picture on the link you sent and they do look very much like them. I will keep the camera handy next to the tank and try and catch a few pictures of the adults and post to see what you think.

I will trim one of the plantlets off tonight and place it in a glass of water on the window ledge to see what happens.

Regards,

Steve.


----------



## banthaman.jm

Hi Red,  Have just read your journal and have to say it's a great read, I found it informative in so many ways.  Your tank looks fantastic with really healthy plants and fish.
Jim


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi Jim,

Thanks very much glad you enjoyed it, and pleased you found it useful!

Sorry there were probably a few photos missing, photo bucket caused me a few problems. How long did it take to read from start to finish?

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Take your eye of the ball and guess what? Yep the algae is back

Hair algae, brush algae everything but Blue Green Algae. Started gradually and got worse, tried starting back with EI for a week and only made it worse.

Back to a few huge water changes, Excel and Black Out

So frustrating!

Steve


----------



## Vazkez

I am sorry to hear that 
I like your scape ( much better then main ). I will check everything and blackout should help you too. At least it's helped a lot in my tank. You can have a look on my journal what happened to my tank after holidays and I was very surprised what blackout can do 

Anyway good luck hopefully you will sort it out


----------



## flygja

I had Cory trilineatus breeding in my discus tank as well. I've read in some articles that triggering them into breeding is as simple as doing a water change with water that is a few degrees colder than the in-tank temperature, to simulate a rainstorm in the wild. I didn't do that, though I think my feeding of live tubifex worms was responsible for triggering the breeding. Unfortunately they didn't grow past 2-3cm or so.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Vazkez said:


> I am sorry to hear that
> I like your scape ( much better then main ). I will check everything and blackout should help you too. At least it's helped a lot in my tank. You can have a look on my journal what happened to my tank after holidays and I was very surprised what blackout can do
> 
> Anyway good luck hopefully you will sort it out



Hi Vaskez,

I just viewed your journal, great looking scape. My eyes popped outwhen I saw that algae when you came back off holiday, you must have been well p"£$%^&* off, I know I would have been. You did a great job in bringing it back though so well done on that. Another lesson for everyone.

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

flygja said:


> I had Cory trilineatus breeding in my discus tank as well. I've read in some articles that



Hi flygja,

Yes those are the same as mine, so not Corydorus Julii after all. I have got five babies in total and they are all doing well, about 2.5 cm big already. They swim about in a little group of their own and look so cute!

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Well....

End of day three of the black out today. Just done a 50% water change and to be fair things are looking much better already. 

I think I was being a bit harsh previously saying that, " I tried starting back with EI for a week and only made it worse" It was nothing to do with the EI, because I left all the NPK and Trace elements in the tank during the blackout and the Reineckii Mini has gone a dark deep red and looking gorgeous, whereas before it was looking pale pink and sort of greeny yellow, so EI has had a positive effect. 

If I am being completely honest I also realised that I had miscalculated the mix for the NPK, I was working off the old measurements from my old Trigon 190 and forgot that the mixture was based on a 20 gallon tank. So when I calculated for 300 litres I tripled the mix forgetting that the previous amounts were already doubled. Now that's a b"£$$ up if ever I saw one.

During the blackout I also left the CO2 on almost permanently, at one stage the AquaMedic digital ph reader was showing 5.85 ph and I was a bit concerned that some of the fish may have karked it. But they all seemed fine today. Fed them a bit

I think I have identified what caused it. Now that the days are longer and brighter a fair bit of sunlight gets into the room, so this combined with eight hours of 4 x 54 watt T5 tubes was far too much light I reckon. So I have rotated the reflectors so that they are almost pointing upwards, switched one light off permanently and reduced the time for the remaining light until the plants have recovered.

The black out is back on at the moment and I have re-dosed the EI NPK and will continue for all of next week to monitor how it goes. But I am feeling optimistic, especially after reading Vaskez's post about his *slight* algae problem when he came back off holiday.

Will post some photos next week sometime when hopefully things are back to normal.

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Just out of interest...

Has anyone tried this...



Did it work?

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## Sk3lly

Yes I have tried that in the past. Didn't find it too effective if I'm honest


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Vazkez

REDSTEVEO said:


> Hi Vaskez,
> 
> I just viewed your journal, great looking scape. My eyes popped outwhen I saw that algae when you came back off holiday, you must have been well p"£$%^&* off, I know I would have been. You did a great job in bringing it back though so well done on that. Another lesson for everyone.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Steve.



Yeah tell me I was thinking OK I am done here 



REDSTEVEO said:


> Well....
> 
> End of day three of the black out today. Just done a 50% water change and to be fair things are looking much better already.
> 
> I think I was being a bit harsh previously saying that, " I tried starting back with EI for a week and only made it worse" It was nothing to do with the EI, because I left all the NPK and Trace elements in the tank during the blackout and the Reineckii Mini has gone a dark deep red and looking gorgeous, whereas before it was looking pale pink and sort of greeny yellow, so EI has had a positive effect.
> 
> If I am being completely honest I also realised that I had miscalculated the mix for the NPK, I was working off the old measurements from my old Trigon 190 and forgot that the mixture was based on a 20 gallon tank. So when I calculated for 300 litres I tripled the mix forgetting that the previous amounts were already doubled. Now that's a b"£$$ up if ever I saw one.
> 
> During the blackout I also left the CO2 on almost permanently, at one stage the AquaMedic digital ph reader was showing 5.85 ph and I was a bit concerned that some of the fish may have karked it. But they all seemed fine today. Fed them a bit
> 
> I think I have identified what caused it. Now that the days are longer and brighter a fair bit of sunlight gets into the room, so this combined with eight hours of 4 x 54 watt T5 tubes was far too much light I reckon. So I have rotated the reflectors so that they are almost pointing upwards, switched one light off permanently and reduced the time for the remaining light until the plants have recovered.
> 
> The black out is back on at the moment and I have re-dosed the EI NPK and will continue for all of next week to monitor how it goes. But I am feeling optimistic, especially after reading Vaskez's post about his *slight* algae problem when he came back off holiday.
> 
> Will post some photos next week sometime when hopefully things are back to normal.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Steve.



Please post some pictures as soon as you uncover it. Hopefully it will sort it out for you. To be honest  if the blackout is still on I will switch the CO2 as you do not need it at al. Also you have very expensive fish (always wanted discus)


----------



## Andy Thurston

I'm trying it at the moment just to clear the hardscape. it seems to work, not as quick as excell but you can treat more at one go with H2O2 and its much cheaper


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Sk3lly said:


> Yes I have tried that in the past. Didn't find it too effective if I'm honest
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Hi Sk3lly,

The video says use it at a rate of 3mls per gallon. I am guessing that means US gallon because the guy doing the video is from the states. If that's the case the mixture will be different stronger or weaker I can't remember which.  I think I will err on the side of caution to begin with. I have just got a 500ml bottle off tinternet so might give it try on the next water change.

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi Vazkez,

Just got back home tonight after being out all day and uncovered the tank. Co2 has been on 24/7 for the last two days, showing 5.77 on the digital display. All the fish seem to be doing fine, just fed the discus with freeze dried Californian black worm soaked with Vitazin liquid vitamin drops they are hoping for it like crazy as usual.

The plants are all looking greener and brighter, the Echinodorus Tennellus has shot runners out Al over the place. There are still some leaves with beard and brush algae on them but looks pretty dead. I will be doing some selective leaf trimming tomorrow and then take a few photos and post them up.

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Big clown said:


> I'm trying it at the moment just to clear the hardscape. it seems to work, not as quick as excell but you can treat more at one go with H2O2 and its much cheaper



Hi big clown,

What % H2o2 did you buy and how did you prepare your solution? 3ml of 3% h2o2 per gallon is what it says in the video. What I don't understand is the guy in the video uses the spray bottle under the water, when you press the lever to squirt the solution out of the bottle, when you release the lever normally air is sucked in to the spray bottle. If the bottle is under water it will pull water into the bottle instead of air which means the solution is constantly being diluted. So the solution must gradually become more and more diluted.

Any thoughts anyone?

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## Andy Thurston

3% food safe, neat with a syringe


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Are you applying this to the hard scape outside of the tank or under water inside the tank?
3% direct neat with Syringe, how much does the syringe hold?

Steve


----------



## Andy Thurston

I use a 5ml syringe and use 10ml in my 60l tank underwater with filters off. wait till it stops bubbling and turn filters back on


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Sounds like quite strong solution. I take it you have got shrimp in your tank? Are they affected by it?

I discovered another solution today, a Karcher Jetwasher! Does the business

Steve


----------



## Andy Thurston

no shrimp in tank. some internet sources recommend higher doses. I'd never get the stones back in the same place if I took them out to jet wash


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi All,

Well it has been a few weeks since the battle with the algae commenced and I am happy to say that things are looking pretty good now. I have a nephew called Joe Woollen who has set up his own film company called JPW Films and he has offered to make a film of the tank and put it up on YouTube, how could I refuse so he is coming round on Saturday. Can't wait!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=HsI_ifV-D6A#t=91
https://www.facebook.com/jpwfilms

In the meantime here are a few pictures that I have taken over the last few weeks, some showing the eggs from the corys and others showing the discus off and the recovery of the plants.

I apologise in advance for the reflections in the photos as these were taken during the day time, and the lights go off at 7pm as the tank is still on a reduced lighting period with only two of the four 54 watt T5 tubes on.

Here is one with the Cory near where the eggs are laid






Here you can just about see a few of the eggs on the plant leaves









A full tank shot, the plants were given a huge trim a few weeks ago and are only just coming back now..





Here you can see the staurygene making a very slow comeback, these were just plastered in algae...





All the leaves on these plants were previously covered in beard and thread algae




Finally a close up of one of the Red Curipeau Discus







I will try and take some photos later tonight when there are less reflections, in the meantime, can't wait for the video shoot.

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## Vazkez

Nice stunnig mate 

Gzz to the eggs as well.

Also did not you thing about some sort of carpet in the front ?


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi Vazkez,

Thanks, I have now got 15 Coryadorus, the original five plus ten offspring in two different sizes.

I did have a carpet of dwarf hair grass at the front but all that came out when I got the filament algae the first time around. I was thinking of planting Glossistigma as a carpeting plant around the front but decided against it as it does tend to go wild and takes some looking after.

Strangely enough there is some Hemianthus Cuba sprouting on the right hand side of the tank so i thought I would just leave that and see what happens. Not enough light on at the moment for it to thrive though. I did think about some sort of external spotlighting just on the HC to see if that had any effect but not sure what external spot light would be effective.

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

As promised here are some pictures of the Discus that I took last night which I hope you will enjoy, it was dark in the room so hopefully no reflections this time!





































Cheers,

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hey, finally some action with the discus, today I saw two of them looking like they might be 'gittin it aawwnn' Its the two together in the middle of the 5th picture above.

Some serious shimmying action going on.

I'll have none of that in my house thank you! As my Dad used to say.

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi All,

As per one of my previous posts here is the link to the video on YouTube. We had some issues with reflections because the film was done during the day time but sort of got around it using some blackout curtain.

It is perhaps not quite as good as some discus tanks you might see on YouTube but I am very pleased with it. 

I hope you enjoy it,

Cheers,

Steve.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=prs9YOqCFtc


----------



## parotet

Hi Steve

very nice and smooth camera movements. Congrats for the video, looks awesome IMO!

Jordi


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi Jordi,

Thanks, I am very pleased with it but all the credit goes to my Nephew Joe Woollen at JPW Films. He used some kind of sliding platform with the camera mounted on it. He is just starting out but is doing a huge project with a film called, 'For the Love of Pugs' coming out later this year.

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi all,

I decided to clean out the big 650T Eheim Filter this week because there were only 3 of the LED lights displayed instead of the maximum 6 for the amount of flow coming out of it.

I did all the usual and was just lifting out the last tray from the bottom of the filter and rinse it in a large container of tank water, and guess what I found wriggling about in the filter substrate? Only a baby corydorus about three quarters of an inch big. Amazing how it managed to survive so long in there, anyway it's back in the tank now with the rest, so I have got 16 now from a starting point of five.

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## Ryan Thang To

cool video steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Thanks Legytt I am pleased with it, the camera work is better than some I have seen on YouTube although we did have some problems with lighting because it was done during the day time.

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi All,

Just a bit of an update...Well the 30cm hillock that I created as part of the Hardscape for the Full Monty has finally reduced itself to a ground level and is no more. The sheer weight of the mountain stone rock and constant shifting of the soil by water movement and the fish etc have flattened it out completely.

So I have removed all the Mountain stone and the Seryiu stone and am now in the process of doing a partial re-scape of 'The Full Monty'. I have cleared a fair bit of space to the left hand side of the tank and acquired a few pieces of Horn Wood, one of which is rather large with loads of nooks and crannies for planting some mosses, maybe Fissidens or any other small plants that grow on wood.

I have posted in the 'wanted' section to see if anyone has got some interesting varieties but in the meantime I would welcome any suggestions for plants to tie to this wood. I will try and post some photographs later this week.

Many thanks,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi all,

Here is the piece of Hornwood which is still soaking at the moment, it's taking longer than I thought it would for it to sink.



Doing this from my iPad instead the laptop so not sure if this will work.
Cheers,
Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Next week I am taking out all the Rummy Nose Tetras and the Diamond Neons and ten of the corydorus and they will be up for sale for £1.00 each. So you could get 20 full size Rummy Nose a Tetras for £20.00, same goes for the Diamond Neons, £10.00 for 10 Corey's. Sorry but these will be for collection only, I will be catching them the night before sale and bagging them up, so whoever buys them will need to collect them early the next morning.

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi All,

Well the partial rescape of The Full Monty is _sort of _finished. Many thanks to Tim and Ryan for all the moss they sent to me, lovely chunk of Fissidens and a massive portion of Weeping Moss. Donation to UKAPS on its way guys, cheers!

The reason the rescape is not quite finished is because the very large piece of Hornwood I got from Jim at TGM was still floating after two weeks of soaking it in a barrel. I tried boiling water, weighing it down with rocks all the usual stuff but it still would not sink completely. But because I had all the moss and my other pieces of Hornwood were already in the tank I decided to go for it anyway.

The finished result is not yet how I want it because I can't position the wood exactly where I want it yet, but it's not looking too bad. I just took some photos with my phone and am uploading them to Photobucket now.

Here is the ginormous portion of Weeping Moss I got off Tim.





And the Fissidens off Ryan.





This is the big piece of Hornwood measuring 62 cm from tip to tip




Only a small photo of this because the blown up one was very blurred..

Here is the wood in the tank, sorry about the photo quality, the Twinstar kicked in and the lighting is not brilliant. As soon as things settle down a bit I will take some decent photos and re-post later in the week.









Cheers,

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Guess what? I have just discovered an amazing new Discus Food that I was previously totally unaware of....it's called Utricularia Graminifolia!!

I just finished planting six clumps of this as a foreground carpet, (if it survives). Lots of loose bits have been floating round the tank and the Discus are eating it like it was their favourite food. It is brilliant! Which means that when I trim the Utricularia Graminifolia I can just leave the bits floating round for the Discus to eat. How good is that? 

Well chuffed!

Steve


----------



## Ryan Thang To

i didn't know they eat that lol. cool

Sent from my SM-N915FY using Tapatalk


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi legytt,

Yeah surprised me too! As long as they only eat the floating bits and leave the planted stuff alone I don't mind ha ha

Steve


----------



## tim

Discus lawn mowers  you may be starting a new trend


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Very Funny!

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## flygja

Discus are known to add vegetation to their diet, though its usually spirulina and not UG


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Yes your'e right, a long time ago when I used to make my own beefheart mix I used to add Spirulina and Spinach to the mix. Never seen them go for this stuff though, it will be interesting when I come to trim the UG, if it grows enough to need trimming that is!

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Just a few photos as an update since the partial rescape of The Full Monty. The Discus are out and about as well. I have been feeding them on Piscine Energetics Mysis shrimp and they absolutely love it..


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi All,

Just got back after two weeks holiday in Cyprus...god it was hot out there...couldn't wait to get back to good old England till I saw how much rain we were having...

My neighbour has been looking after things while we have been away. As usual with true military precision I measured out 12 portions of various dry foods and sealed them in the little plastic pots, the ones you get with lids from the Indian and Chinese takeaway food shops. Labelled up all the liquid fertilisers, daily routine, a list of do's and dont's, what to look out for, how many discus there are in the tank, check each day there are no floaters etc etc...

Glad to say I got back and all fish doing well. The only negatives are that the Hygrophilia XL has melted completely and doesn't look like it is going to recover, the Altanthera Reineckii Mini is struggling, the Staurgyren Repens is making a _very slow_ comeback and I think the dicsus must have eaten what I had left of the Untricualria Graminifolia because there is not a scrap of it left.

So all in all the tank is gradually becoming devoid of plants, which means it is morphing more into a sort of natural discus biotope as time goes by. I might give up altogether with the Hi Tech plants, the tank is 60cm deep and even the 4 x 54 watt T5's are not up to the job. Its getting expensive and more and more time consuming so taking the enjoyment away slightly. So its either go Low Tech or invest in some higher quality lighting system.

On the plus side recently I have got hold of some PISCINE Mysis Shrimp from Andy's Aquatics in Rock Ferry and the Discus eat it like there is no tomorrow, all of them with huge full bellies after feeding.



http://www.mysis.com/

Bit of a water change and some tidying up needed then I will try and take some decent photographs to add as an update.

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## Edvet

I used to feed the discus and the altum's mysis, they did seem to love it. I bought it frozen


----------



## flygja

Your discus are looking great. I've had, in recent months, 2 discus jump out of the tank, 5 of them falling sick to some fungus from newly introduced fish where 4 recovered and 1 looks like its not gonna recover. So stressful!


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Edvet said:


> I used to feed the discus and the altum's mysis, they did seem to love it. I bought it frozen



Hi Edvet,

Yes this stuff is frozen also, the trouble is they like it so much I have to be careful that they don't just eat this and nothing else!

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

flygja said:


> Your discus are looking great. I've had, in recent months, 2 discus jump out of the tank, 5 of them falling sick to some fungus from newly introduced fish where 4 recovered and 1 looks like its not gonna recover. So stressful!



Hi Flygia,

To be honest those photos don't really do them full justice, in real life close up they look the absolute business.

Discus jumping out of the tank is not a good thing at all. This is the main reason I have been looking for an LED lighting system that I can fit in under the smoked black glass lids. On a gamble I have ordered the US Current Satellite Plant + Pro 48 inch LED off eBay. It took a while for the e-cheques to clear via PayPal but I am expecting delivery between now and the 10th of September....

Is the discus that you think is not going to recover still alive? Have you got any pictures that you can PM me just in case I can think of something you could try to help?

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## flygja

Thanks for the offer Steve, but unfortunately the discus is no longer with me. That particular fella hasn't eaten much for some weeks now, as it was being chased away from the food but one of the other discus. I was distracting the rest and dropping some food in front of it and it was eating a bit, but still a lot lower than normal intake. Then the fungus struck and it wasn't strong enough to recover. Forehead so sunken in due to starvation and sickness. Last Friday I couldn't bear the sight of it suffering as it was being pushed around by other discus, so I decided to euthanise it by means of ice cold water. 

Sorry for the sob story.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Tough love in this case, if the fish was suffering the way you describe it, you did the best thing in the end, hard to do but less stressful than watching them suffer and die slowly

Comiserations,

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi All,

After a large water change on Wednesday and added minerals I noticed one of my large Blue Diamond Discus was acting strangely...sort of swimming about aimlessley as if it didn't know exactly where it was going...last night after seeing it by itself in the top corner I went to bed with a strong suspicion it was not going to make it through the night.

Guess what, this morning it was dead at the surface with a really bloated stomach, so I am guessing and intestinal disorder and digestive problems, loads of gas in the stomach killed it I reckon. It could be something to do with over feeding all the discus on lots of high protein food trying to get them into breeding condition.

The good news is the other five are all doing really well and there is a lot of pairing activity going on and the genitalia are all prominent, I have even seen one or two of them shimmying in front of leaves and hornwood even cleaning the glass, so I suspect something is imminent. Once two of these pair off for definite and have had a few attempts at spawning I will be selling the other three to allow the spawning pair to have the tank to themselves.

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi All,

At the moment it is looking like I might have two pairs from the remaining five discus. One of the Blue Diamonds looks like it is in the process of pairing off with the smallest of the Red Curipeau discus. The other two larger red Curipeau are going through the same process. Which leaves one Blue Diamond looking like 'billy no mates' without a partner.

Although I have got a good idea, I have not managed to confirm 100% which sex is which from each potential pair, but if any of them start spawning I will know for sure, as long as I can observe the process when it is happening.

Getting excited now also because I am expecting delivery of my US Current Satellite Pro Plus LED tomorrow. I will take some photos and update once I have installed it.

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Well I'll be damned...I had no sooner finished writing up this post and went to see what the discus were up to and the two Red Curipeau have finished spawning on a large leaf on an Amazon Sword Plant in the right hand side of the tank. Now that they have finished I can't identify which one did the laying and which one did the fertilising...doh!

Never mind I am not expecting many of these eggs to be fertilised properly as it is their first time. I expect most if not all of them to go white within 24 hours and the pair will start picking them off ready to start again in a few days. Any that do survive to the hatching stage will probably get lost and eaten by the other fish or sucked up into the inlet pipe on the filter. Now I just need to wait and see what the other pair get up to.

Its going to be difficult getting a photograph as the leaf with the eggs on is at an angle and high up at the back of the tank.

Updates to follow.

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi All,

Well just as expected by the time I checked the tank again this morning, the eggs were not just white, they were invisible, gone completely. So I am guessing the newly formed pair ate them, or at least that's what I think. It could be that in their inexperience they took their eye off them long enough for another fish to eat them, but hey ho that's nature for you.

The good news is that the pair don't seem overly distressed. So all being well they will have a nother go in a few days. I have put a large piece of slate in the tank near to where they laid and hopefully they will use this instead.

Thanks,

Steve.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Daraaaaaahhh....

At last the Current US Satellite Plant Plus Pro LED Light has arrived from across the pond! Just unpacked it and what a relief that it is all in one piece. Not had chance to have a proper play with it yet, but dead excited none the less.

Updates later,

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi All,

Well the Current US Satellite Plant Plus Pro LED Light is now installed and I have removed one set of 2 x Eheim 54 watt T5 tubes. For the moment I have left the other set still in place until I know what the outcome is of the new LED.

My first thoughts are that it is a much crisper cleaner looking white than the T5 tubes, very high quality, although it is not as bright as I thought it would be, and if I am going to just have this light running I am not sure how the plants will react to it, but I am going to try and be patient and give it a few weeks before deciding whether to combine it with the other two 54 watt Guiesemann Aqua Flora tubes.

I am still playing around with some of the settings, it has got so many functions with six different dynamic settings like cloud cover, sunset, half moon, full moon etc. It also has a lightning storm sequence which is a bit freaky.... It also has two different memory settings to play about with so you can choose alternative day time settings by pressing the memory button of your choosing.

Overall I am impressed with it, it is light weight, ultra thin and fits perfect under the glass covers and still gives me the room to get my hands in for routine maintenance. The cost wasn't too bad for a light of this quality, just the import taxes and extra postage paid bumped the price up a bit. It also took longer than expected to arrive because it came via eBay's Global Shipping service.

I have posted some photographs below, please accept my apologies for the poor quality, but at least you get an idea of some of the colours from the light.

There are also some nice close up pictures of the Discus laying their eggs on a piece of driftwood a day after I put a spawning cone in especially for them!
A full tank shot...





Dark Moon Light...





Full Moon Light...





Sorry about the flash I am crap at photography..









This pair of Discus laying eggs for the first time....













As with the other pair the eggs were gone by the morning, not sure which one ate them or even if it was this pair, but after a few more goes I expect one of the two pairs to get the hang of it..

Bit of a re-scape and some big tidying up gone on over the weekend with some new plants added. Updates to follow...

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## aaron.c

Looking amazing Steve! Great work


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Thanks aaron.c,

It looks a bit better now after the new plants went in yesterday, I am waiting for it to get dark so I can take some photogrpahs without all the reflections.

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## flygja

Nice. I've had 3 or 4 attempts at spawning, all of them failures as the eggs turned white the next day. On the last attempted, my turqoise leopard male spawned with a red melon female! Internet wisdom says blue discus should not spawn with red discus as the offspring would be extremely peppered. Strangely the male ate the eggs within minutes of fertilising them.


----------



## Martin in Holland

flygja said:


> Nice. I've had 3 or 4 attempts at spawning, all of them failures as the eggs turned white the next day. On the last attempted, my turqoise leopard male spawned with a red melon female! Internet wisdom says blue discus should not spawn with red discus as the offspring would be extremely peppered. Strangely the male ate the eggs within minutes of fertilising them.


I guess the male loves peppered eggs ....lol


----------



## REDSTEVEO

flygja said:


> Internet wisdom says blue discus should not spawn with red discus as the offspring would be extremely peppered. Strangely the male ate the eggs within minutes of fertilising them.



Hi flygia,

I have spoken with a few people about this subject, this is what I found out.

Example 1:

A Male Blue Diamond pairs off with a Female Red Curipeau.

The female offspring from this pair will be passed the colour and genes of the Blue Diamond Male
The male offspring from this pair will inherit the colour and genes of the Red Curipeau Female.

Example 2:

A Male Red Curipeau pairs off with a Female Blue Diamond.

The female offspring from this pair will be passed the colour and genes of the Red Curipeau Male.
The male offspring from this pair will inherit the colour and genes of the Blue Diamond Female.

This allows for cross matching and passing on certain gender and colour characteristics.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi All,

Since the last update I can tell you that I am keeping the other set of 2 x 54 watt Guisemann Aqua Flora tubes in the tank along side the Current US Satellite Pro Plus LED. The Altanthera Reineckii Mini and the Staurygene Repens are making a miraculous recovery so I am really pleased. Even a spot of Monte Carlo Cuba has sprouted its head and is spreading so the LED has made a difference.

The other update I have got is about the Discus.  As some of you will know I lost a few discus along the way due to one thing or another and so now I have got five left in the tank. It was always my intention to let nature take its course and see which fish paired off with one another. From the five remaining fish I have got two pairs and one single male Blue Diamond. Two of the Red Curipeua have paired off and have spawned twice in the last couple of weeks. The other pair is a large female Blue Diamond and the remaining male Red Curipeua which have also spawned twice in the last few weeks. So far nothing has come of the eggs and they were all gone within 24 hours.

Well here is the situation I have got now. Last night the Blue Diamond female and Red Curipeua started spawning again on a spawning cone in the right corner of the tank. The trouble is the other pair interfered, and the male from the other pair was eating the eggs off the cone as quick as they were being laid, so not good. A bit stressful for me and probably for the fish. 

It is obviously time keep one pair and sell on the three others, but I don’t know which pair I should keep!  The female Blue Diamond is a quality fish and looks gorgeous with solid bright red eyes and great shape, but to be honest she has paired off with probably the least colourful and smallest of the Red Curipeua, the other two Red Curipeua are bigger and much better looking with beautiful halos around the top and bottom fins. Ideally I would have liked the big female Blue Diamond to have paired off with the other larger Red Curipeua male, but that’s nature I suppose.

Any way, as soon as I have made my mind up which pair I am keeping, the other three will be for sale at around £65.00 each including the other pair. I will post another update as soon as I know which pair I am keeping. If anyone is interested let me know and I will keep them for you, collection only though I am afraid.

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## Edvet

hIs it possible to make a makeshift "wall"in your tank to see if one pair actually fertilises the eggs? (like a large piece of filterfoam stuck in the tank). The usual breeding tanks for discus are quite small so if you only have 1/3 of the tank it will be large enough.
If you realy want to breed them you might want to lower the TDS, it enables the fertilising of the eggs


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi Edvet,

Thanks, I have thought about a divider using the plastic egg shell crating, but to be honest I don't really want to spoil the appearance of the tank, and I am not sure if I can be doing with the extra hassle. I have been lowering the TDS gradually by adding more RO water with the water changes. Recently I have managed to get my hands on loads of live Blackworm from a supplier. The discus have been eating it like crazy and I think this is what has triggered all the spawnings.

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## alto

If that smallest red male is not the same quality, I'd just remove him first ... his loss may encourage a pairing between blue girl you like & another male ...

If the fish didn't seem stressed about the other fish joining in (& dining), I'd not worry about it - it's all good practise ... some fish never seem to get it right, others seem to get it right the first go ...
As long as there is no stress behavior, I'd just let the fish continue playing for the next few months - also consider if you really want to raise discus fry, what will you do with the juveniles (I'm crap at selling on babies I've raised)

Great update on the plants


----------



## flygja

You can also consider moving the pair into a bare bottomed tank with a spawning cone. You'd have to remove the fry and parents sooner or later anyway, so might as well get a cheap tank, filter and put them in there. No lights needed even, natural sunlight is enough.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

alto said:


> If that smallest red male is not the same quality, I'd just remove him first ... his loss may encourage a pairing between blue girl you like & another male ...



Hi alto,

This sounds like a plan to me, great idea and one which I will definitely consider. 



alto said:


> As long as there is no stress behavior, I'd just let the fish continue playing for the next few months - also consider if you really want to raise discus fry, what will you do with the juveniles (I'm crap at selling on babies I've raised)



To be honest I am not doing this to make any money from selling on any fry, just doing it for the pleasure of seeing any baby discus being raised naturally by the parents, without all the cafuffle of bare bottomed tanks, water changes and feeding routines etc. I've been through all that before in Germany and it can take over your life. 



flygja said:


> You can also consider moving the pair into a bare bottomed tank with a spawning cone. You'd have to remove the fry and parents sooner or later anyway, so might as well get a cheap tank, filter and put them in there.



Hi flygia,

I don't mind setting up a few bottles of newly hatched brine shrimp once they are too big to feed from the mucus on the skin of the parents, but that is about as far as I will go, at least until I retire from full time work.

If I was successfull enough in having a lot discus fry I would happily give them away to anyone who knew how to look after them properly.

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Here are a few photos of the discus that have paired off.

Any white dots you can see in the water are from the Twinstar Super S, must remember to switch that off next time.

This is the female Blue Diamond...her male partner is just out of shot to the right...






This is the other pair of Red Curipeau...









The Staurgyrene Repens making a comeback...





Cheers,

Steve


----------



## Ady34

Hi Steve,
stunning looking Discus....even through the mist


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Ady34 said:


> Hi Steve,
> stunning looking Discus....even through the mist



Thanks Ady,

The Discus have since laid eggs again and I now know exactly which fish are females and which are the males. The downside is that the biggest and best Red Curipeau which I thought was male is actually a female, a bit gutted because I was hoping to pair that fish off with the big female Blue Diamond.

Here are some of the latest photographs.

The female Blue Diamond. The pair of Red Curipeau are busy laying eggs in the background!













Still not sure which pair I should keep, but I will decide once I have actually seen some eggs hatch that have been properly fertilised. The other pair plus the single male Blue Diamond will be for sale once I have decided which pair I am keeping.

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Sad News

After catching as many Planaria as I could using a trap that I bought off eBay and after much deliberation I finally decided to try out the 'No Planaria' product to finish off any remaining Planaria that I couldn't catch with the trap. So I put the first dose in yesterday as per the instructions, one small measuring spoon for each 50 litres of water. The water went a bit cloudy to begin with but soon cleared and everything seemed fine. I checked everything late last night and all was well.

I came down this morning and the first thing I saw was one very dead Blue Diamond Discus in the right hand corner of the tank, the other four were nowhere to be seen. 

My first thought was that the Ammonia levels had gone through the roof as a result of the die off from the Planaria. After removing the dead discus I tested the water and was very surprised to see that it was a zero reading. Meanwhile I located the other four discus at the back of the tank behind the bogwood and heavily planted section on the left hand side of the tank. At first sight my heart sank because looking at their appearnace and how still they were, I thought they were all dead, but as I proceeded to remove the first one with the net there was some movement, likewise with the other three.

I decided to do a massive water change, turn down the heater and pump loads of air into the tank from an air pump via the internal aquaclear powerhead. I cleaned as much of the glass as I could, then gently lifted the four discus to the front of the tank where I could see them better. The single remaining Blue Diamond is in a very bad way, gone almost white and showing signs of a distressful night, but still breathing, the other three Red Curipeau were a little better, but still not moving or swimming, except for their mouths and small amount of fin movement.

At the moment all four are still alive, but I am not holding much hope for the Blue Diamond and one of the Red Curipeau On top of this two Flying Foxes were also dead and a number of Amano shrimps. Yet strangely one Flying fox is fine and none of the Ottocinclus have been effected by this at all??

So what has caused this? My first thought after eliminating the suspected ammonia spike from the cause, was that a combination of high temperature, (30 degrees) and the addition of the 'No Planaria' product which is a Palm Nut Oil based product, had caused a huge reduction in the oxygen levels within the water. This in turn led to stress, possible darting around during the night, and hypoxia killed the fish. This is just a theory but in reality I have no idea what caused this and would be very interested to hear what anyone else thinks might have caused it.

I will be emailing the company who produce the No Planaria product with the pictures below to ask what their view is on this. Sadly the pictures are a little distressing so I apologise to anyone who is upset by them. I have deliberately kept the photos small so hopefully less graphic.





This is the large female Blue Diamond which had paired off with one of the Red Curipeau.




Two others struggling, fighting for their life.




The Flying Foxes and the discus.








I will keep an eye on them and hope for the best. Updates to follow.

Sadly, Steve


----------



## Ryan Thang To

hi steve

im really sorry about the fish. im really stock about that. do you worm your fish every month?

cheers
ryan

Sent from my SM-N915FY using Tapatalk


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## John S

I really feel for you Steve. Must have been horrendous to get up to that this morning. Fingers crossed for the survivors.


----------



## Clint Hewitt

legytt said:


> hi steve
> 
> im really sorry about the fish. im really stock about that. do you worm your fish every month?
> 
> your blue discus is amazing. colour is really bright and colourful. how the fissiden moss by the way?
> 
> cheers
> ryan
> 
> Sent from my SM-N915FY using Tapatalk


Please read Steve's post just before you sent yours.


----------



## Ryan Thang To

Clint Hewitt said:


> Please read Steve's post just before you sent yours.


my phone is very slow at loading steve journal. i did not see the sad new. i just saw the post about blue discus laying egg so that was my first post and then i relise so im sorry about that. I've edit the post.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 
That is a horrible thing to happen. 





REDSTEVEO said:


> was that a combination of high temperature, (30 degrees) and the addition of the 'No Planaria' product which is a Palm Nut Oil based product, had caused a huge reduction in the oxygen levels within the water. This in turn led to stress, possible darting around during the night, and hypoxia killed the fish. This is just a theory but in reality I have no idea what caused this and would be very interested to hear what anyone else thinks might have caused it.


That would be my suspicion. I've never used "No Planaria" (although I have used "Panacur" without any problems in the past), but a film of oil may have reduced gas exchange. 





REDSTEVEO said:


> Yet strangely one Flying fox is fine and none of the Ottocinclus have been effected by this at all??


 If it was low oxygen levels it might be a size issue, larger fish are more prone to hypoxia than small ones (body volume increases more quickly then gill area). Also _Otocinclus_ can also extract oxygen from gulped air (like a _Corydoras).
_
cheers Darrel


----------



## REDSTEVEO

legytt said:


> do you worm your fish every month?



Hi Legytt,

No I don't worm them at all now. I did use the Kusuri Discus worming powder I got from Plymouth Discus, I used it twice and each time resulted in a fish death, twice I lost a discus the next morning, which I have put photos up somewhere in this thread a while ago. So basically I have been scared to use the stuff since then. Any reason you ask?

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

legytt said:


> my phone is very slow at loading steve journal. i did not see the sad new. i just saw the post about blue discus laying egg so that was my first post and then i relise so im sorry about that. I've edit the post.



No worries Legytt, thanks for the concern.

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

John S said:


> I really feel for you Steve. Must have been horrendous to get up to that this morning. Fingers crossed for the survivors.



As it is at the moment, it is looking like two might survive, the other two are still breathing but not moving at all.

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

dw1305 said:


> If it was low oxygen levels it might be a size issue, larger fish are more prone to hypoxia than small ones (body volume increases more quickly then gill area). Also _Otocinclus_ can also extract oxygen from gulped air (like a _Corydoras)._



Hi Darrell,

I suspect you are right about the size issue, the gills on the remaining discus were pumping like mad at first but have slowed right down now. I am not sure if this is a good sign or not.

I also forgot about the breathing mechanism of the Ottos.

Thanks,

Steve


----------



## Ryan Thang To

yep


REDSTEVEO said:


> Hi Legytt,
> 
> No I don't worm them at all now. I did use the Kusuri Discus worming powder I got from Plymouth Discus, I used it twice and each time resulted in a fish death, twice I lost a discus the next morning, which I have put photos up somewhere in this thread a while ago. So basically I have been scared to use the stuff since then. Any reason you ask?
> 
> Steve


i use the same worming brand. i had no problems using it and i would always use it every month untill i sold the tank to a friend next door. he got abit lazy and one day all the discus kinda went dark and black and blue. so i told him to do water change for a few week with little results. i then ask him have you worm the fish he said no. he then did the treatment and every day the fish poo is white but im not saying your fish had worms im just wondering that why i ask. to be honest if they were fine and looking good then i think is that no Planaria stuff that cause it.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi Legytt,

My suspicion about the worming powder was that maybe the two discus that died were possibly full of worms and the Kusuri powder killed the worms inside them which in turn poisened the fish, but that is only speculation.

Do you think I should use the worming powder on any of the surviving discus if they recover?

Steve


----------



## Ryan Thang To

REDSTEVEO said:


> Hi Legytt,
> 
> My suspicion about the worming powder was that maybe the two discus that died were possibly full of worms and the Kusuri powder killed the worms inside them which in turn poisened the fish, but that is only speculation.
> 
> Do you think I should use the worming powder on any of the surviving discus if they recover?
> 
> Steve


hi

i would give it a try so if there was anything inside them it would clear it out but before you do it just do water every day and see how they are. after a week if no different then add the treatment. i hope everything gets back to normal for you.

cheers
ryan


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





REDSTEVEO said:


> the gills on the remaining discus were pumping like mad at first but have slowed right down now. I am not sure if this is a good sign or not.


 Fingers crossed, I think that is probably a good sign. 

It also suggests that oxygen was the issue. If oxygen reduction is caused by high ammonia levels, usually the ammonia will have damaged the gills to the extent that breathing will remain rapid.

If problems are caused by low oxygen and/or high CO2, breathing should return to normal fairly rapidly when dissolved gases levels return to normal.

cheers Darrel


----------



## REDSTEVEO

dw1305 said:


> f problems are caused by low oxygen and/or high CO2, breathing should return to normal fairly rapidly when dissolved gases levels return to normal.



Hi Darrel,

Thanks for the encouragement. As things are now it is looking like two of them might survive, but the other two are in a very bad way, breathing slowly but can not keep themselves upright, they are lying on their side and sometimes drifting upside down.

I doubt they are going to make it till the morning, if by late tonight I might have to do the humane thing rather than let them suffer and to come down to find them both dead.

God I am gutted.

Steve


----------



## Andy D

Fingers crossed for those that remain. 

Really gutted for you mate.


----------



## alto

So sorry to read your update 

but please give these fish a chance to sort themselves

- I've seen discuss ship in with massive fin damage (ammonia in bags) & dark & lying down in the tank, after daily 90% water changes, no food, lots of aeration (sponge filters so little current), no lights, a surprising # recover (I think 3 losses out of 40 young discus on that group) ... a few of these fish remained dark for 3-4 weeks, while most looked much better after a week ... not much change over the first 3-4 days except that they didn't look worse: it was couple of months before the shop released any for sale.

Sometimes these oil based products have (severe) adverse reactions - anoxia may be a factor but it would take quite a bit to limit oxygen in the tank through surface film as your filters will be constantly aerating the water BUT oil coating the gill tissue & surrounding structures would be very effective at limiting oxygen uptake ...
there is also the possibility of organic toxins present in the oil based product post-production ... unfortunately most manufacturers are very quiet about processing & there are few regulations in place for fish & livestock meds (relative to human drug quality controls).

As for worming your discus, I'd not add any meds to their tank for several weeks ... most compounds effective against parasites/worms etc are *less* toxic to the host but not "non-toxic" so most will cause stress to varying degrees  (healthy fish will show few adverse signs ... but most healthy fish also have immune systems which will act to keep parasites in check  ... unless you're feeding loads of live worms etc, you should not need to deworm fish frequently)


----------



## LondonDragon

dw1305 said:


> That would be my suspicion. I've never used "No Planaria" (although I have used "Panacur" without any problems in the past), but a film of oil may have reduced gas exchange.


Yeah, never heard of the product killing any fish or shimp if dosed accordingly. Bizarre indeed.


----------



## Lindy

I'm so sorry to read these updates. Horrific to lose fish this way. I have used no planaria on my shrimp tanks with no ill effects including my shadow bees but it looks like it hasn't worked out for you. I use the wormer 'fluke solve' by the same company that make the other wormer you have tried. I have used on all my fish including older fry without ill effect. I will keep everything crossed that your fish make it. Heart breaking.  

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


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## REDSTEVEO

alto said:


> So sorry to read your update
> 
> but please give these fish a chance to sort themselves
> 
> - I've seen discuss ship in with massive fin damage (ammonia in bags) & dark & lying down in the tank, after daily 90% water changes, no food, lots of aeration (sponge filters so little current), no lights, a surprising # recover (I think 3 losses out of 40 young discus on that group) ... a few of these fish remained dark for 3-4 weeks, while most looked much better after a week ... not much change over the first 3-4 days except that they didn't look worse: it was couple of months before the shop released any for sale.
> 
> Sometimes these oil based products have (severe) adverse reactions - anoxia may be a factor but it would take quite a bit to limit oxygen in the tank through surface film as your filters will be constantly aerating the water BUT oil coating the gill tissue & surrounding structures would be very effective at limiting oxygen uptake ...
> there is also the possibility of organic toxins present in the oil based product post-production ... unfortunately most manufacturers are very quiet about processing & there are few regulations in place for fish & livestock meds (relative to human drug quality controls).
> 
> As for worming your discus, I'd not add any meds to their tank for several weeks ... most compounds effective against parasites/worms etc are *less* toxic to the host but not "non-toxic" so most will cause stress to varying degrees (healthy fish will show few adverse signs ... but most healthy fish also have immune systems which will act to keep parasites in check  ... unless you're feeding loads of live worms etc, you should not need to deworm fish frequently)



Hi Alto, Everyone,

Many thanks for the best wishes and the support, advice and suggestions.

Last night saw the demise of the second Blue Diamond female discus. Around 10:30 last night I had spent an hour and forty minutes holding the discus upright in front of a gentle water stream of oxygenated water hoping she might recover. But sadly every time I let go she just drifted to the bottom and went upside down. The last time I attempted it the breathing had stopped and there was no movement whatsoever. It was time to call it a day.

After removing the fish from the tank I went and got a piece of kit that I have not used in donkeys years. In a box in the garage was a Sochting Oxidator series A for large tanks. Fortunately I still had some of the 6% peroxide solution and the ceramic catalysts to make it work. After cleaning etc I placed it in the aquarium and sat back to watch the oxygen flow into the water.

The positive news is that this morning all three remaining Red Curipeau Discus have got through the night and are huddled together in the corner of the tank. The one that was the worst off for wear last night was the big female Red Curipeau, I honestly did not think she would make it, but I wanted to give her every chance to recover. She is still looking a bit pale but the breathing is fine and she is the right way up. This is such a relief because if she had died that would mean I would have been left with just the two remaining male Red Curipeau.

So the situation at the moment is, water temperature slightly down to aid oxygenation, Sochting Oxidator running in tank, Air pump pushing air through diffuser, Co2 is turned off, PH has risen from 6.15 to 6.95, no feeding at the moment and the lights are off to give them a bit of peace.

Not sure if I should do another water change today, there was no problem with ammonia levels yesterday so that wasn't the cause of this. Just somehow maybe the No Planaria product had a dramatic effect on the O2 in the water.

We learn every day!!

Assuming all is well and the three remaining discus survive I will remove the single male Red Curipeau and just keep the two that paired off originally. 

Updates to follow,

Thanks for caring.

Steve.


----------



## alto

Again sorry for your blue girl loss 

I'd do large daily water changes for at least a few days so as to facilitate removal of the No Planaria product - do you have charcoal/activated carbon in the filter? (use marine grade, quality really makes a difference on this stuff) - then alternate day water changes .. tank is likely deep enough that you can do a 50% water change without too much stress ... if they perk up with every water change, then you know you're on the right track.
If they seem much the same with water changes, I'd still do the water changes; only stop the frequent water changes if they seem "worse" after a water change.
Keep monitoring water quality just in case of filter effects.

Don't feed until fish are beginning to look/move better, start with small amounts frozen brine shrimp (go back to feeding more frequent, tiny meals if possible) - gut activity may also be compromised so go carefully.
The oxygenator was an excellent idea.

I'd not move out the extra male for at least a couple months, discus really are group fish (even as adults).

As I recall you cleared most of your other fish from the tank in the summer, what stock remain?


----------



## REDSTEVEO

alto said:


> I'd do large daily water changes for at least a few days so as to facilitate removal of the No Planaria product - do you have charcoal/activated carbon in the filter? (use marine grade, quality really makes a difference on this stuff) - then alternate day water changes .. tank is likely deep enough that you can do a 50% water change without too much stress ... if they perk up with every water change, then you know you're on the right track.
> If they seem much the same with water changes, I'd still do the water changes; only stop the frequent water changes if they seem "worse" after a water change.
> Keep monitoring water quality just in case of filter effects.
> 
> Don't feed until fish are beginning to look/move better, start with small amounts frozen brine shrimp (go back to feeding more frequent, tiny meals if possible) - gut activity may also be compromised so go carefully.
> The oxygenator was an excellent idea.
> 
> I'd not move out the extra male for at least a couple months, discus really are group fish (even as adults).
> 
> As I recall you cleared most of your other fish from the tank in the summer, what stock remain?



Hi Alto,

I will start with the water changes tomorrow and see how they do. I don't use any form of activated charcoal, I used to but apparently it reaches a point where when it gets saturated it releases everything back into the water in one dump, and it was a bit of a pfaff taking it out and changing it every so often to avoid the supposed dump of toxic stuff back into the water.

I think the gut activity is definitely compromised so will heed the advice re the feeding. Glad you liked the Oxygenator idea. I bought that in Germany when I was stationed there, it cost me 89 deutsche marks, so that shows you how long ago it was, but I never get rid of anything useful like that, you never know when you might need it.

You are right, I will keep the three together until they have all well and truly recovered. If the original two Red Curieau pair off again and spawn there won't be as much interference now.

Remaining stock = 10 Ottocinclus, 6 Corys and one Flying Fox, thats it.

Thanks,

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

As for worming your discus, I'd not add any meds to their tank for several weeks ... most compounds effective against parasites/worms etc are *less* toxic to the host but not "non-toxic" so most will cause stress to varying degrees  (healthy fish will show few adverse signs ... but most healthy fish also have immune systems which will act to keep parasites in check  ... unless you're feeding loads of live worms etc, you should not need to deworm fish frequently)[/QUOTE]

Alto,

A few weeks back I was feeding them loads of live Californian Blackworms that I got from the Abyss Aquatic Warehouse which they devoured and showed no signs of distress as a result so I never thought they needed de-worming. After feeding with these worms they really coloured up and began the spawning activity.

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## alto

REDSTEVEO said:


> activated charcoal, I used to but apparently it reaches a point where when it gets saturated it releases everything back into the water in one dump


I'd like to see the data & specifics on that one 

While it does begin to desorb particles, this is generally a continual process, compounds with higher binding affinity will always preferentially bind - it's all just "adsorption" so no permanent bonds are formed with the activated carbon & the assorted molecules.
While it's possible to "bind" a compound of interest to activated charcoal & then wash in such a fashion as to "release" the compound of interest, this is an unlikely scenario in a freshwater planted aquarium (never say never ) 

At this stage, the activated charcoal will preferentially bind any oil-based compounds remaining from the No Planaria - you want to use a charcoal with larger "pores" as this will greatly facilitate binding of these (likely) larger molecules; you can safely leave it in place for a week or so, then remove.
In this type of scenario where carbon is used to bind medications/toxins in aquaria, it is recommended to change out the carbon as removal from the system is the goal.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi All,

I just spent some time on line doing research on any previous incidents of the No Planaria Product causing Fish Deaths. While researching I found this forum below very informative, quite light hearted and in some way very funny. It is an Austarlian forum mainly to do with shrimp keeping, but there are some interesting points raised, i.e. don't dose the No Planaria Product if you have got high Co2 levels or if you are using EI Dosing regimes, all of which I have been doing.

See the link below for the forum.

Cheers,

Steve

http://www.aquariumlife.com.au/archive/index.php/t-29190.html?s=651a85bf2a2e83f48e50953703e1da13


----------



## REDSTEVEO

alto said:


> I'd like to see the data & specifics on that one


Could have sworn I have seen it written on the instructions when I use it last, something about removal at a certain point before saturation. Suppose it could have been a marketing thing to get you to buy more of it.

The only other reason I have not been using activated charcoal is because I thought it removes everything, not just the toxins, so the EI Ferts, the minerals etc so would be defeating the object of putting any ferts in the tank if the charcoal is just removing them?

Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## alto

I don't usually run charcoal but it's very useful for clearing suspected toxins & removing not just the intentionally dosed medication compounds but also the by-products that may be generated in aquaria re heat, light, various chemical, even bacterial action  

That instructions comment is one of those part truths of marketing


----------



## LondonDragon

REDSTEVEO said:


> don't dose the No Planaria Product if you have got high Co2 levels or if you are using EI Dosing regimes, all of which I have been doing.


I used in the past on my high tech with very high CO2 and IE dosing without any issues, I do buy liquid panacur though, have never used products such as no planaria, not sure what is in those. Panacur kills all planaria in 24 hours and would recommend it as a de-wormer for the tank, first time I went into the vet and asked for it for my fish tank, the vet looked at me as if I was crazy! lol


----------



## REDSTEVEO

LondonDragon said:


> I used in the past on my high tech with very high CO2 and IE dosing without any issues, I do buy liquid panacur though, have never used products such as no planaria, not sure what is in those. Panacur kills all planaria in 24 hours and would recommend it as a de-wormer for the tank, first time I went into the vet and asked for it for my fish tank, the vet looked at me as if I was crazy! lol


Hi London Dragon,
Based on what I have learned from the research I have done I would be extremely reluctant to use the No Planaria product again, or at the very least would under dose and oxygenate the tank as much as I could during the process. When I was in Germany I asked a vet once to provide me with a product called Flubenol which the German Discus keeping fraternity swore by as a cure all for everything. I got the same look as you probably did, but the vet prescribed the Flubenol for me.

I would be interested to hear more about the dosing regime for Panacur, how much per litre over how many days etc. Also what did the vet charge you for the Panacur in liquid form, did it have to be mixed to a specific strength etc.

Interestingly enough I have had no response whatsoever from the makers of No Planaria, I have emailed them twice at the email address provided on their website, www.genchem.com.tw/ I even emailed them before I used the product to ask for advice on water changes post treatment and still no response. This just about sums up the standard of their after care and customer service.

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## LondonDragon

REDSTEVEO said:


> I would be interested to hear more about the dosing regime for Panacur, how much per litre over how many days etc. Also what did the vet charge you for the Panacur in liquid form, did it have to be mixed to a specific strength etc.


Hi Steve, you can buy panacur in liquid form from Amazon, no need to visit the vet any longer.

The recommended dosage when I first used it 5-6 years ago was 0.1ml per 10l, but I have dosed 1ml in a 30l tank full of shrimp with no issues.

The No Planaria product is not based on Panacur.

Always have a bottle handy, use it on the dogs and in the fish tanks  works both ways for me, note that there is an expiry date on the bottles, I always check and when it expires I bin it and buy another one.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi Paulo,

Thanks very much for the advice and the tip for getting hold of Panacur. 

Water change done, all three remaining discus are still alive, although two are in the right hand corner and the one that was looking the worse out of the three is tucked away in the left hand corner.

While doing the water change I cleaned the glass and noticed there was a very clean and clear but slightly oily feel to the glass. I am guessing this is residue from the No Planaria product. There is not a single Planaria worm in sight, so I guess the stuff has had some effect on these, unless they have all headed for the depths of the substrate to get away from it.

Next time I feed the discus with Mysis shrimp I will know then if they are gone or not.

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi All,

I have run out of the 6% Hydrogen Peroxide to use with the Sochting Oxygenator. I can get hold of it from a supplier on eBay who deals with Sochting as a UK distributor. Trouble is it comes in a liter bottle for a few quid but costs £12.00 plus to send it by courier because he can't send it via Royal Mail.

I found the 6% solution on Lloyd's Pharmacy website which is clinical or food grade quality but also contains a trace of Phospheric Acid plus hydrogenised water. I am guessing that this is not advisable, but grateful if anyone can confirm one way or the other.






Thanks,

Steve


----------



## flygja

Very sad to hear about your discus mate. I've had similar incidents where discus health suddenly degrade and they die, with no known causes. I got so frustrated and disappointed at one point that i almost gave up on discus. In any case, I would suggest to raise the water temp to 29-30'C as this helps increase discus metabolism and helps them fight disease. Whenever my own discus look unhealthy, I switch off the cooling fans of my tank and dose API fungus care as needed.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





REDSTEVEO said:


> Thanks very much for the advice and the tip for getting hold of Panacur.


If you don't mind it buying granules you can buy it really cheaply for treating dogs and cats. I think 4.5g of Panacur (22% Fenbendazole) is about £2.

I also don't think it goes off if it isn't in liquid form. 

I used the approx. the same dose as Paulo, 0.1g in 10 litres. I crushed it up with a pestle and mortar, and then dissolved it a small amount of alcohol (Vodka would do). 

Last time I used it I skipped the vodka, and just tipped the powder into the tank, and it still seemed to work.

cheer Darrel


----------



## alto

This Reef topic suggests that any pharmacy grade peroxide is fine - look for the quoted material (possibly from Söchting) ... I suspect that the peroxide you've linked is "standard" manufacture & that all peroxide products contain similar - often the difference in clinical/food grade/pharmaceutical grades etc is the product analyses have been done on that production run & are available ...

Good news that all 3 are still upright today.

I'd not consider raising temp for several days.

Again I'll suggest the charcoal - that residue on the glass is a clear indicator of product remaining in the tank in areas that you can't easily clean.

If you had a suitable tank to remove the discus to, I'd consider that as it would allow you better control over water quality.


----------



## X3NiTH

REDSTEVEO said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I have run out of the 6% Hydrogen Peroxide to use with the Sochting Oxygenator. I can get hold of it from a supplier on eBay who deals with Sochting as a UK distributor. Trouble is it comes in a liter bottle for a few quid but costs £12.00 plus to send it by courier because he can't send it via Royal Mail.
> 
> I found the 6% solution on Lloyd's Pharmacy website which is clinical or food grade quality but also contains a trace of Phospheric Acid plus hydrogenised water. I am guessing that this is not advisable, but grateful if anyone can confirm one way or the other.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Steve



There may be two different types of this stuff available over the counter from Lloyds as mine slightly differs to that description.

I have the Care+ stuff, 'Hydrogen Peroxide Solution 6% 20 vols', it's a slightly different label though (yellow circle portion of label around image of hand is white bordered with red and the yellow field below with writing is brown, same text though except for an inclusion of a red warning label below main body of text which reads 'External Use Only'), it was bought over the counter from a Lloyds Pharmacy, the ingredients listed on the back are -

Active Ingredient: hydrogen peroxide 6% w/v
Also Contains: phosphoric acid (E338), phenacetin and purified water.

Using it to nuke BBA, the first bottle of H2O2 I had was from boots as it was 6% pure without the unnecessary extras but the last time I tried to get it over the counter I was told they don't stock it anymore, had to go to Lloyds and the above stuff was all they had. It still works to nuke BBA, but I haven't used it in the presence of fish only plants. The phenacetin it contains is an Analgesic (metabolises to paracetamol), not sure how that would affect fish if they come into contact with it, there's no information on how much per volume there is, you couldn't trust it to be trace amounts.

Regarding using Panacur/fenbendazole to treat planaria in the future, the vet I tried only had it in syrup form (didn't fancy the syrup component which may or may not have caused extra issues to the ones I was trying to cure) ended up with the Panacur dry granule sachets from P@H and I can say they are a pig to get into solution (I should have ground them up more before adding to water), I used RO/DI to mix with it, it took a few days for it to break up enough for me to say that when I shook the bottle it was 'in solution', it still sediments on the bottom of its container as a mixed up solution if left to settle, a good shake of the bottle and it's back to being suspended as a solution again for a little while but once it's in the tank generally that's where you want it to end up (in the sediment). Hit my planarians quite hard but didn't wipe them out entirely, deep sediment ones appeared to recover after a while but the population was hit really hard, shrimps had a good time though pulling out and feasting on the dead. Next time I need to treat I'm going to inject directly into the substrate where it's needed the most for a more direct approach rather than dosing the water column which goes cloudy for a day or so while it sediments out of solution.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

X3NiTH said:


> I have the Care+ stuff, 'Hydrogen Peroxide Solution 6% 20 vols', it's a slightly different label though (yellow circle portion of label around image of hand is white bordered with red and the yellow field below with writing is brown, same text though except for an inclusion of a red warning label below main body of text which reads 'External Use Only'), it was bought over the counter from a Lloyds Pharmacy, the ingredients listed on the back are -
> 
> Active Ingredient: hydrogen peroxide 6% w/v
> Also Contains: phosphoric acid (E338), phenacetin and purified water.


Hi X3NiTH,

The Hydrogen Peroxide goes inside a sealed rigid plastic container with the ceramic catalysts, then placed upside down inside the Ceramic Oxugenator pot and a Ceramic ball sits on top of that, so as far as I know the chemical does not ever come into contact with the water, just the escaping O2 that comes out through two tiny holes in the bottom of the plastic container.

What do you reckon, safe enough to use or not?

I'll give the powdered form of Panacur a miss thanks

Steve


----------



## X3NiTH

The phenacetin likely not much of an issue for contact with water column if it's separated from it, only issue is if it somehow interacts with the catalytic process going on. From reading up on catalytic reactions and h2o2 taking the phosphoric acid content of this solution into account I have no idea if it's being used to adjust the pH of the h2o2 making it slightly more energetic at the 6% concentration under the conditions it is to be used in or if it's there to allow the phenacetin to remain in solution by making the solution more acidic, however it will likely be very small amounts and probably of a very low concentration itself as this product directs that it can be used as a mouthwash and gargle, phosphoric acid and teeth not the best combination as in higher concentrations its used as a dental etchant which is why it probably states not to be used for under 12's unless on the say 'so of a doctor', so probably not very safe to use in the presence of milk teeth, so likely a stronger concentration than what's in fizzy pop. 

From having a look at the description for your device it appears that the catalyst used is a perishable item to be replaced intermittently so the presence of phosphoric acid may cause the catalysts longevity to decrease if it can eat the support medium that's holding the metal catalyst and because h2o2 catalytic reactions are influenced pH and phosphoric acid influences pH the reaction may be more energetic, but since the instructions direct you not to use 35% food grade solution which is very energetic and even give precise instructions on how to dilute to down to a 6% solution from 35%, then it's probably safe to use in the presence of phosphoric acid only that the reaction may just be a little quicker. There's a catalysed 35% h2o2 reaction over on YouTube that makes some interesting watching, although it's likely using a more exotic flavour of metal than the catalyst contained within the ceramics for this device. 

If it's all you can get then if it were me I would test first and add a drop or two onto the catalyst to see how it reacts, if it reacts exactly like you expect it to compared to that used previously then it's probably safe to use for the purpose you intend. A more energetic reaction just means more gas produced (and heat of course), if it's too quick then it may produce enough gas that the container can't cope with the quickly expanding volume and fail, I can't see that happening though at the 6% concentration. 

You could try Boots, you'll need to ask at the pharmacy if it's not on the shelf, they may have some 6% h2o2 that comes without the extras you'd rather do without and take the doubt out the equation.


----------



## Nelson

http://www.freshwatershrimp.co.uk/category.php?id_category=94
Postage £7.99.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

X3NiTH said:


> The phenacetin likely not much of an issue for contact with water column if it's separated from it, only issue is if it somehow interacts with the catalytic process going on. From reading up on catalytic reactions and h2o2 taking the phosphoric acid content of this solution into account I have no idea if it's being used to adjust the pH of the h2o2 making it slightly more energetic at the 6% concentration under the conditions it is to be used in or if it's there to allow the phenacetin to remain in solution by making the solution more acidic, however it will likely be very small amounts and probably of a very low concentration itself as this product directs that it can be used as a mouthwash and gargle, phosphoric acid and teeth not the best combination as in higher concentrations its used as a dental etchant which is why it probably states not to be used for under 12's unless on the say 'so of a doctor', so probably not very safe to use in the presence of milk teeth, so likely a stronger concentration than what's in fizzy pop.
> 
> From having a look at the description for your device it appears that the catalyst used is a perishable item to be replaced intermittently so the presence of phosphoric acid may cause the catalysts longevity to decrease if it can eat the support medium that's holding the metal catalyst and because h2o2 catalytic reactions are influenced pH and phosphoric acid influences pH the reaction may be more energetic, but since the instructions direct you not to use 35% food grade solution which is very energetic and even give precise instructions on how to dilute to down to a 6% solution from 35%, then it's probably safe to use in the presence of phosphoric acid only that the reaction may just be a little quicker. There's a catalysed 35% h2o2 reaction over on YouTube that makes some interesting watching, although it's likely using a more exotic flavour of metal than the catalyst contained within the ceramics for this device.
> 
> If it's all you can get then if it were me I would test first and add a drop or two onto the catalyst to see how it reacts, if it reacts exactly like you expect it to compared to that used previously then it's probably safe to use for the purpose you intend. A more energetic reaction just means more gas produced (and heat of course), if it's too quick then it may produce enough gas that the container can't cope with the quickly expanding volume and fail, I can't see that happening though at the 6% concentration.
> 
> You could try Boots, you'll need to ask at the pharmacy if it's not on the shelf, they may have some 6% h2o2 that comes without the extras you'd rather do without and take the doubt out the equation.



X3NiTH,

You know what I like about this forum? When guys like you come on and take the time and the effort to give support and advice of this quality. That is what I call an A Star response my friend. I will go out and get this tomorrow and exercise caution by testing it first as you recommend. 

I am so grateful for the time you have taken to answer this and provide a solution to the solution

Best regards,

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Nelson said:


> Postage £7.99.


Nelson,

Thanks very much for the heads up on the contact for this. Before I run out I will probably get it from here, unless this other stuff works like a dream, at £1.99 for a 200ml bottle that works out at around a tenner for a litre and I can pick it up in minutes.

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

alto said:


> This Reef topic suggests that any pharmacy grade peroxide is fine - look for the quoted material (possibly from Söchting) ... I suspect that the peroxide you've linked is "standard" manufacture & that all peroxide products contain similar - often the difference in clinical/food grade/pharmaceutical grades etc is the product analyses have been done on that production run & are available ...
> 
> Good news that all 3 are still upright today.
> 
> I'd not consider raising temp for several days.
> 
> Again I'll suggest the charcoal - that residue on the glass is a clear indicator of product remaining in the tank in areas that you can't easily clean.
> 
> If you had a suitable tank to remove the discus to, I'd consider that as it would allow you better control over water quality.


Thanks for the link alto, an interesting read on the subject of the peroxide and the use of Sochting Oxygenators.

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

REDSTEVEO said:


> Hi Paulo,
> 
> Thanks very much for the advice and the tip for getting hold of Panacur.
> 
> Water change done, all three remaining discus are still alive, although two are in the right hand corner and the one that was looking the worse out of the three is tucked away in the left hand corner.



Paulo,

I have worked out why two of the discus are in the right hand corner of the tank and the one that was looking the worse out of the three is tucked away behind a load of bogwood and plants in the left hand corner. The two on the right hand side are both Red Curipeau males, the other one on the left side is the red Curipeau female, and every time she comes out the males are already nudging her and she is definitely not up for any of that at the moment.

Trouble is she can't stay tucked away there and not come out for food otherwise she will deteriorate. So should I be removing one of the males and go against Alto's advice on page 25 a few posts up.

Thanks,

Steve


----------



## alto

Is there any way you can create a net barrier creating 2 separate tank areas? this would likely be the best solution for all fish involved.

Note that as the previous pair has "broken", further pairing may be with different fish.

Re hydrogen peroxide, food grade or pharmaceutical grade is about as "pure" as it gets, there are further discussions on this

here

&

here (last page)

You might also contact the manufacturer


----------



## REDSTEVEO

alto said:


> Is there any way you can create a net barrier creating 2 separate tank areas? this would likely be the best solution for all fish involved.
> 
> Note that as the previous pair has "broken", further pairing may be with different fish.
> 
> Re hydrogen peroxide, food grade or pharmaceutical grade is about as "pure" as it gets, there are further discussions on this
> 
> here
> 
> &
> 
> here (last page)
> 
> You might also contact the manufacturer



Hi Alto,

The Hydrogen Peroxide solution is sorted

I see what you mean about the previous pairing being 'broken' 
I have got some white plastic egg shell crating that I could use to divide the tank, it would look a bit ugly but I suppose it might be worth a try. The female is still behind the bog wood, I need to move the female to the right hand side where there is a bit more space, and shift the two males to the left.

Bit of a palarva, plus I need to cut the egg shell crate to size

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

LondonDragon said:


> Hi Steve, you can buy panacur in liquid form from Amazon, no need to visit the vet any longer.
> 
> The recommended dosage when I first used it 5-6 years ago was 0.1ml per 10l, but I have dosed 1ml in a 30l tank full of shrimp with no issues.
> 
> The No Planaria product is not based on Panacur.
> 
> Always have a bottle handy, use it on the dogs and in the fish tanks  works both ways for me, note that there is an expiry date on the bottles, I always check and when it expires I bin it and buy another one.



Paulo,

I forgot to ask what was the percentage strength of the Liquid Panacur you have been using?

I saw this on Amazon for £15.43 a bottle
* Panacur 10% x 100ml Liquid for Cats & Dogs *
by Panacur

Thanks,

Steve


----------



## LondonDragon

REDSTEVEO said:


> Panacur 10% x 100ml Liquid for Cats & Dogs


That's the one Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

LondonDragon said:


> That's the one Steve


Thanks Paulo.

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

alto said:


> Is there any way you can create a net barrier creating 2 separate tank areas? this would likely be the best solution for all fish involved.
> 
> Note that as the previous pair has "broken", further pairing may be with different fish.



Hi Alto, All,

Sadly, the question of how to put a tank divider in the tank to separate the female from the two males is no longer an issue.

The female died at around 2.30 this afternoon. I found her barely breathing at the back of the tank so I took her out and placed her in a bucket of half tank water and some warm tap water with Tap Safe put a heater and air stone in to see if she would recover. Nothing doing I'm afraid. 

I feel like a fish murderer

I am convinced that the No Planaria caused the Hypoxia and the Hypoxia killed the discus fish. 
So the moral of the story I think is; *Do not use the No Planaria Product in a tank with Discus* *Fish. Be extra careful if you are injecting Co2 and dosing EI, add extra aeriation to the tank to reduce the effects of Hypoxia.*

That's it for now.
Thanks,
Steve


----------



## alto

So sorry to read this update 

If it helps, most of us have gone through bad times like this, you do something where you're hoping to improve a tank situation & instead it's a downhillslide  

It's especially difficult when the product manufacturer refuses to even acknowledge contact or accept product responsibility.

There are many anecdotes on the net where products such as Melafix & Pimafix cause dramatic & severe adverse reactions ... sadly the manufacturer still won't place a warning on the label ... maybe you can write up your experience in article form & have it posted as a sticky here & on Discus forums (or create a FB page etc).


----------



## Lindy

Oh how sad  but you did everything you could to help the fish recover and used this product in good faith so don't waste energy blaming yourself. I hope the other 2 continue to make a full recovery. 
Lindy

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


----------



## REDSTEVEO

alto said:


> So sorry to read this update
> 
> If it helps, most of us have gone through bad times like this, you do something where you're hoping to improve a tank situation & instead it's a downhillslide
> 
> It's especially difficult when the product manufacturer refuses to even acknowledge contact or accept product responsibility.
> 
> There are many anecdotes on the net where products such as Melafix & Pimafix cause dramatic & severe adverse reactions ... sadly the manufacturer still won't place a warning on the label ... maybe you can write up your experience in article form & have it posted as a sticky here & on Discus forums (or create a FB page etc).


Still no reply from the manufacturer If you look at the website and the chemicals they apparently produce I have my doubts that the stuff is actually a natural Betel Palm nut extract. I think it something else. Maybe we could get members of UKAPS to bombard their email with requests for an explanation.

Thanks,

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi 


ldcgroomer said:


> Oh how sad  but you did everything you could to help the fish recover and used this product in good faith so don't waste energy blaming yourself. I hope the other 2 continue to make a full recovery.
> Lindy
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


Lindy,
The remaining two males are recovering but they have gone very skittish and don't come out and swim around as much. They don't come to the front when I go to feed them which is a bit sad
Thanks,

Steve


----------



## banthaman.jm

Sorry to hear of your issues Steve, I'm sure the two males will gain confidence when you approach the tank at feeding time, just need time.
Jim


----------



## REDSTEVEO

banthaman.jm said:


> Sorry to hear of your issues Steve, I'm sure the two males will gain confidence when you approach the tank at feeding time, just need time.
> Jim


I hope so Jim, but today they disappeared behind the plants and bogwood when I went to feed them and they haven't come out yet

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Really bad weather here today, got bored so I have been experimenting with the US Satellite Current Plant Pro Plus LED today. The variety of settings on each colour spectrum is amazing. Trouble is there are that many variations its hard to know what is best overall.

Here are a few photos under a different light setting.


































At least I haven't got any algae issues at the moment.

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## Lindy

The discus are probably being skittish because there are only 2. 

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


----------



## flygja

Sad to hear about the discus deaths mate. It echoes my own experiences, though not with No Planaria. A neon tetra death is just another death, but a discus death is heart crushing. Up to a point I almost gave up on discus completely. I also read about PFK forummer medicman and his experiences, he also lost a discus with no apparent reason and because of that, plus his job rotations, he's given up on discus for now. His tank is on PFK's website, which is what made me look up his forum.

I agree with Lindy... have less than 6 discus will cause them to be skittish and hide most of the time, only coming out for food.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi Flygia,

The thought has crossed my mind believe me, but not yet! I will give it a few more weeks to see how they get on. Still hiding most of the time, they are out when I am not in the room then they disappear when I walk up to the tank to put food in, which is not heartening. 
Thanks to Lindy and everyone for the kind words.
Cheers,
Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi All,

The two remaining male discus having fully recovered have been sold. So is the tank now a discus-less tank? Not quite, have alook at these beauties! This is a pair of Super Red Flames that have spawned several times previously for their previous owner. I picked these up on Friday and as an adult pair have settled in very quickly, swimming around together, eating well, and have even showed signs of looking for the next potential site to spawn.

I have had some serious issues lately with discus, mostly down to putting my trust in certain products all in the name of trying to do my best to look after the environment of the fish that I am responsible for looking after. Now after these lessons, keep it simple is my motto, and keep your eye on the ball! 

These pictures were taken a few hours after putting them in the tank.





Slightly subdued lighting at first using the settings on the Current US Satellite Plant Plus LED.












All plants are doing well at the moment with the exception of the Staurygene Repens to the left, yet another completely unexplained melt of their leaves.

I also spotted at least 50 eggs yesterday from the Corys on the glass, on the plants everywhere.

Updates to follow.

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Well it has been a while so just time for a quick update. The Full Monty has been undergoing a bit of a transformation. It all started when I saw this huge piece of English Oak about two months ago and could not stop thinking about how it would look in my tank. It is 85 cm wide and is full of features and nooks and crannies to plant into.
I bought it and soaked it for over a week, while it was soaking I drained the tank and removed two thirds of the substrate from the front and middle sections of the tank and replaced it with gravel and fine sand. I re - planted only some of the plants and the rest are in other containers while I decide what to do with them..

The tank now looks a lot more like a natural discus biotope and the fish seem very happy. Photos to follow soon.

Cheers

Steve


----------



## Ryan Thang To

pictures please lol 

Sent from my SM-N915FY using Tapatalk


----------



## James O




----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi all,

Guess what I am really crap at photography, out of all the photographs I took most of them have got massive reflections in them, they are really poor, certainly not to the standard that some guys post up on here. So I have limited it to just a few to give you an idea of what is going on. I will have to borrow my son's camera again to try and take some decent photos at night time with just the tank lights on. But here goes...

















The water is still a little bit cloudy and brown looking. I have used the Easy-life Fluid Filter Medium which if it does half the things it says on the label is the the new wonder treatment for everything.

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Well it has been a week now since I changed things around and put the huge piece of English Oak into the tank and changed over to a sandy substrate. I did however leave a layer of the ADA Power Sand and some of the ADA Amazonia soil under the sand along the back to plant the Aponogeton Crispus into when it arrives. All seems to be fine so far, even though the water has taken on a dark tea colour. The tannins from the wood are still coming out and there has been the odd bit of slimy fungus which I have vacuumed out as it appears.

I have got a container full of Reinecki mini and Staurygene Repens growing separately which I am also waiting to re-plant but not sure how it will grow in the sandy substrate. Anyone got any views on how this will do if I re-plant it in the sand?

Today I changed 50% of the water using a mixture of RO and HMA filtered water, before the water change the TDS was up at 330, it is now down to 230 TDS.

Here are a few pictures I took before and during the water change.


Still got more plants to fix onto this wood when I get time




















I have raised this end of the wood up by putting a rock under the wood at the middle section. Now the discus can swim through the tunnel under the wood.




Kattappa leaves 











view from the top under the LED light




Taking quite some time filling the tank very slowly so as not to drop the temperature




Cheers,

Steve.


----------



## Martin in Holland

Looks as if it's a piece of the Amazones....


----------



## flygja

Should be pretty much perfect for discus.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Martin in China said:


> Looks as if it's a piece of the Amazones....



Thanks Martin, that's the look I am trying to achieve

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

flygja said:


> Should be pretty much perfect for discus.



Thanks Flygia,

I hope so, I really want this pair to breed in this tank. I am still trying to find out if the Reineckii mini and the staurgyrene will grow in the sand substrate or not.

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## Lindy

Looks brilliant and I love the colour of the water. I doubt you need catappa leaves while your oak is leeching tanins. I expect you ph has dropped a bit? 

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


----------



## REDSTEVEO

ldcgroomer said:


> Looks brilliant and I love the colour of the water. I doubt you need catappa leaves while your oak is leeching tanins. I expect you ph has dropped a bit?
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk



Strangely enough no the PH has not dropped which I was surprised to see. 

Several large water changes have lightened the colour quite a bit.

Think the discus are going to spawn tonight or tomorrow. So far they have not managed to get the fry past the one day old stage post hatching. Fingers crossed they get it right this time!!

Steve


----------



## Lindy

I have had my head turned by discus and as my fishroom plans have been shelved I'm allowed to get a big tank for the lounge.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi Lindy,

Once your head is turned there is no going back

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi All,

Just a quick update as it was January when I posted the last news. There have been a few changes. Firstly the huge piece of English Oak had to be removed. On reflection it seemed a good idea, but it caused no end of problems with the water quality, and it started to grow fungus from various places and no matter how I tried to clean it or scrape it off it grew back and there was a 'Rotten egg' smell emanating from the water during the water changes. I had no idea how much crap was being left behind in all the nooks and crannies underneath and behind the wood. So I bit the bullet and took it out, it is now an expensive looking piece of garden decoration next to my pond.

The next thing after at least ten failed attempts by the discus to breed in the tank, I bit the bullet a second time and moved them to a separate cube tank in my computer room / office at home. They have been in there for ten days and spawned once but I think there was too much filtration - water movement and most of the eggs were not fertilised so they went white. Fingers crossed sometime this week with some filter adjustments there will be a better result.

So with no more discus in the main tank and only a handful of fish, 3 corys, 5 ottos and some amano shrimp it was time for some serious maintenance. Filters all cleaned and pipes totally pulled through, again I was amazed at the amount of crap and sludge that can build up inside the pipes. Some plant trimming followed by some seriously big water changes 50% to 70% twice a week for a couple of weeks saw a vast improvement in the water quality. I just used fresh cold water from a hosepipe straight from the tap and added Seachem Prime with a bit of filter aid and hey presto, absolutely crystal clear water, great water flow and brilliant CO2 distribution, and guess what? A massive amount of improvement to the plants, photosynthesis like I have not seen for ages and not one single trace of algae so far.

I have cranked up the CO2 and reduced the temperature down to 26 - 27 degrees, after a 50% water change the temperature decrease is as much as 3 or 4 degrees, but the plants and the fish don't seem to mind, and within an hour or two it is back up to 26 - 27 degrees. I replaced the 2 x T5 54 watt Flora Grow Tubes with the original Eheim Fresh Daylight tubes that came with the tank and the tank now looks a whole lot brighter. All this with virtually no feeding causing pollution has made a massive noticeable difference. So much so that my wife has even commented on how much nicer it looks.

I am keeping the ferts down to the minimum, 25 mls of macro NPK 3 x per week and 25 mls of micro trace twice per week. This regime has been going on for only three weeks. The huge Amazon Sword plant sent out a straight shoot with at least six sister plants which I have now cut and replanted along the back of the tank which should give a lovely green foliage background against the black backing on the glass.

So the up shot is, I had forgotten how easy it was to grow plants and have minimal issues with water quality and algae. Back to basics, keeping it simple. I don't care what any one says, if you have no fish in the tank it is definitely easier to maintain and keep the plants looking healthy.

So what about the discus I can hear you ask? When they spawn next I am hoping to keep them in the cube with the parents for as long as possible, maybe six weeks, then give some of them away to people I know who already want them, sell a few for minimal price and put a shoal of them in the main tank to raise them.

The pictures below are of what I have talked about above.

Thanks for looking.

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## rebel

REDSTEVEO said:


> Thanks Flygia,
> 
> I hope so, I really want this pair to breed in this tank. I am still trying to find out if the Reineckii mini and the staurgyrene will grow in the sand substrate or not.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Steve


They will grow as long as you give them root tabs.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi Rebel,

I did add some of the ADA Mineral and Iron root sticks which I have dotted around the roots of most of the plants. Are there any other Root tabs you would suggest or recommend?

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## alto

REDSTEVEO said:


> Firstly the huge piece of English Oak had to be removed. On reflection it seemed a good idea, but it caused no end of problems with the water quality, and it started to grow fungus from various places and no matter how I tried to clean it or scrape it off it grew back and there was a 'Rotten egg' smell emanating from the water during the water changes. I had no idea how much crap was being left behind in all the nooks and crannies underneath and behind the wood. So I bit the bullet and took it out, it is now an expensive looking piece of garden decoration next to my pond.


Sorry to hear that - while assorted fungus stages are "normal" with wood, there should be no off odours or reduction in water quality (aside from the tannins release doesn't seem to both most livestock or plants) ... you might call up the shop that sold you this & see if there is any possibility of refund/credit ... if wood was sold for aquarium use, it should be usable in an aquarium!

High pressure cleaning & just sitting out in the elements where the wood can dry out properly (so not really in the elements of an English Garden  ) might see wood usable at some point ...




REDSTEVEO said:


> I replaced the 2 x T5 54 watt Flora Grow Tubes with the original Eheim Fresh Daylight tubes


I don't know why companies are still trying to sell these odd colored tubes - plants grow fine with a variety of light spectra that are rather more esthetically appealing.

Tank looks good after the rescape


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi Alto,

I did think about ringing the shop to ask if they would take it back, but I bottled it. Its been a while, plus I am kind of getting used to it in the garden It was reduced from £99.00 to £89.00 so I suppose for a garden ornament not too expensive.

The Flora Grow Tubes gave off a slightly pinker reddish light which was okay, but the American Satellite Current Plant Plus LED has more than enough functions to cover that, that's why I wanted the brighter crisp white tubes back in. If it wasn't for the LED I might have stuck with the Flora Grow from Giessmann.

Cheers,
Steve


----------



## rebel

REDSTEVEO said:


> Hi Rebel,
> 
> I did add some of the ADA Mineral and Iron root sticks which I have dotted around the roots of most of the plants. Are there any other Root tabs you would suggest or recommend?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Steve


I have used the ADA ones ( very recent though). We have a product called dino dung from aquagreen.com.au which is great. I've also used diy tabs made from mixing kitty litter and blood and bone into a paste and then dried in the sun. All work.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Kitty Litter, Blood, Bone! Dino Dung!

This is what I found on Google images for Dino Dung. Eeeeerrrr I think I'll give that one a miss thanks.





Cheers

Steve


----------



## rebel

LMAO!


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi Rebel, I couldn't laugh I'm afraid, I was too busy being sick!

Update with new photos to follow next week.
Cheers,
Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Following some trouble medicating for worms the discus developed some cloudy eye and other stress related problems. So I have moved the discus from their breeding tank back in to the Full Monty Planted tank. I am very relieved to say they are doing much better now. Phew at one stage I thought they were going to go blind.

Some photos below, very sorry about the reflections













Cheers,

Steve


----------



## alto

Good to see the update 

Even better to see them back in the main tank 

Is this a proven pair? (spawned & successfully raised fry)


----------



## rebel

REDSTEVEO said:


> Thanks Flygia,
> 
> I hope so, I really want this pair to breed in this tank. I am still trying to find out if the Reineckii mini and the staurgyrene will grow in the sand substrate or not.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Steve


Yes they should with root tabs. Not sure about high temps tho.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

REDSTEVEO said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Just a quick update as it was January when I posted the last news. There have been a few changes. Firstly the huge piece of English Oak had to be removed. On reflection it seemed a good idea, but it caused no end of problems with the water quality, and it started to grow fungus from various places and no matter how I tried to clean it or scrape it off it grew back and there was a 'Rotten egg' smell emanating from the water during the water changes. I had no idea how much crap was being left behind in all the nooks and crannies underneath and behind the wood. So I bit the bullet and took it out, it is now an expensive looking piece of garden decoration next to my pond.
> 
> The next thing after at least ten failed attempts by the discus to breed in the tank, I bit the bullet a second time and moved them to a separate cube tank in my computer room / office at home. They have been in there for ten days and spawned once but I think there was too much filtration - water movement and most of the eggs were not fertilised so they went white. Fingers crossed sometime this week with some filter adjustments there will be a better result.
> 
> So with no more discus in the main tank and only a handful of fish, 3 corys, 5 ottos and some amano shrimp it was time for some serious maintenance. Filters all cleaned and pipes totally pulled through, again I was amazed at the amount of crap and sludge that can build up inside the pipes. Some plant trimming followed by some seriously big water changes 50% to 70% twice a week for a couple of weeks saw a vast improvement in the water quality. I just used fresh cold water from a hosepipe straight from the tap and added Seachem Prime with a bit of filter aid and hey presto, absolutely crystal clear water, great water flow and brilliant CO2 distribution, and guess what? A massive amount of improvement to the plants, photosynthesis like I have not seen for ages and not one single trace of algae so far.
> 
> I have cranked up the CO2 and reduced the temperature down to 26 - 27 degrees, after a 50% water change the temperature decrease is as much as 3 or 4 degrees, but the plants and the fish don't seem to mind, and within an hour or two it is back up to 26 - 27 degrees. I replaced the 2 x T5 54 watt Flora Grow Tubes with the original Eheim Fresh Daylight tubes that came with the tank and the tank now looks a whole lot brighter. All this with virtually no feeding causing pollution has made a massive noticeable difference. So much so that my wife has even commented on how much nicer it looks.
> 
> I am keeping the ferts down to the minimum, 25 mls of macro NPK 3 x per week and 25 mls of micro trace twice per week. This regime has been going on for only three weeks. The huge Amazon Sword plant sent out a straight shoot with at least six sister plants which I have now cut and replanted along the back of the tank which should give a lovely green foliage background against the black backing on the glass.
> 
> So the up shot is, I had forgotten how easy it was to grow plants and have minimal issues with water quality and algae. Back to basics, keeping it simple. I don't care what any one says, if you have no fish in the tank it is definitely easier to maintain and keep the plants looking healthy.
> 
> So what about the discus I can hear you ask? When they spawn next I am hoping to keep them in the cube with the parents for as long as possible, maybe six weeks, then give some of them away to people I know who already want them, sell a few for minimal price and put a shoal of them in the main tank to raise them.
> 
> The pictures below are of what I have talked about above.
> 
> Thanks for looking.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Steve
> 
> View attachment 83909
> 
> View attachment 83910
> 
> View attachment 83911
> 
> View attachment 83912
> 
> View attachment 83913
> 
> View attachment 83914
> 
> View attachment 83915
> 
> View attachment 83916
> 
> View attachment 83917
> 
> View attachment 83918
> 
> View attachment 83919
> 
> View attachment 83920
> 
> View attachment 83921



Well not a lot going on fish wise with The Full Monty, my Discus are back in the breeding tank looking after eggs which are 36 hours old this morning so should be hatching sometime around midnight tonight so its going to be a late one.

Just thought I would post these pictures up as a comparison to the last photograph from the previous update.

As you can see there has been a little bit of growth since then. Hardly any fish in there, so very little feeding going on, lower temperature to 26 degrees, TDS around 250, Macro and Micro ferts going in as per Pedro Rosa's regime, 50% water change using tap water once a week.  CO2 is left on 24/7 at around 50 bubbles per minute going through a standard in tank ceramic diffuser. I have had it with the UP Aqua In-line Diffusers now. Although I have looked closely at the new JBL one at Maidenhead Aquatics in Chester, still not convinced though at £34.00. The plants seem to be happy enough.

Full tank shot taken at an angle to try and avoid the reflections

















This photo doesn't do this end of the tank a lot of justice, it looks amazing in reality





Cheers,

Steve


----------



## Nick16

what is the foreground plant in #557 ? is it some some sort of saggitaria?


----------



## REDSTEVEO

That is Echinodorus Tennellus my friend. It is growing in simple white sand with some NPK root tabs added.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi All,
Just a quick update, not a lot going on to be honest, but tank not looking too bad. All the discus have been sold and I have just got some very pretty Rainbow fish species at the moment who seem to be enjoying the planted environment. 














Picture quality not brilliant, taken with my phone, close up the tank looks much better than the pictures.

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## alto

Great to see an update


----------



## Lindy

I was considering getting some discus after seeing you manage in a planted tank but now I might save myself the bother. Why did you decide to get rid of them? 

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi Lindy,

You get the bug and go for it. It takes over and you get obsessed, it no longer becomes enjoyable, especially when you finish up with pairs that want to breed in the same tank. So you set up a breeding tank and it goes on from there...but you never get rid of the bug, it comes back like an itch that you just have to scratch. My tank has morphed over the past few months where I have reduced the number of plants and taken out the carpet plants and covered the ADA Substrate with sand, only had a few Rainbow Fish dithering about. The water has never been better, the Amazon Swords went crazy, massive, and the algae problems were zero.

Then the itch comes back...you wonder, you read, then read some more, do a bit of research and by accident stumble on something that starts the whole process all over again.

See my next post with photos in about half an hor for an update to see what I mean.

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

So following on from my reply to Lindy, I was sat staring at my tank just over a week ago, looking at the spave and wondering what to do next. After some exhaustive surfing on the net I started looking at photogrpahs and posts on the BIDKA Site of wild Discus Aquariums.

A guy called Dave Mercer posted a video, I watched it and that was it I was bitten again. See the link below for his video, lets just say I was Suitably Stunned.



I went to visit him to see his tank, and ask loads of questions about the Wild Discus. He confirmed what underneath I thought all along, it can be heaven or hell, I could see these beautiful fish swimming and shoaling about, eating and getting on fine...or I could be entering a whole world of pain! It didn't matter I had to do it, so I did.

By pure coincidence a guy from BIDKA contacted me and told me about his Red Spotted Wild Discus from the Rio Nannay that he was selling as he was moving and closing his tank down. Okay so he lives in Hull and I would have to collect them...but the price was too good an opportunity to miss.

So yesterday I got up at 05:30 and was on the road by 6am. Seven hours later I am back home thinking s£$% what have I done, but there was no going back. After two hours of very carefully acclimatising the fish in a huge barrell all nine of them were in the tank.

I was still sat watching them at 1 am this morning...unbelievable, how quick theys seemed to settle. Okay so I had done two 60% water changes in the few days previously and turned off the CO2, the NO3 was virtually zero, PH 7.2, KH 4, GH 6, TDS 198, temperature 29 degrees, now tunred down to 28 degrees as Wild Discus prefer the slightly lower temperature to domestic Discus.

I left the Moonlight LED on over night, came down this morning at 07:30 and they were all swimming around beuatifully in a shoal. I sat eating my breakfast watching them. So far so good... now comes the hard part, getting them to feed, and so it begins, another adventure, another experience to share.

I have promised myself that no matter what happens, I WILL NOT get my self to the point where I am obsessed to the point where it is not enjoyable looking after them. More of a ke sera ke sera, whatever will be will be.

Fed them a few tiny pieces of PISCINE Mysis shrimp, some Tetra Prima Granules, and a bit of Freeze Dried Californian Blackworm. They all sniffed at it at first, but I noticed that when one of them starts going for it, its like a wolf pack mentality...and guess what, that was the first sign of them behaving differently, the pecking order for who gets at the food first...slight bust up and a bit of sand got disturbed, but hey nothing to get stressed about right? That is what happens in nature, so if you want nature in your living room, especially with Wild Discus, you have to take the good with the bad.

So far from watching them shoal, the good outweighs the bad, as long as it stays that way I'll be happy.

Some early photos off my phone below, updates to follow.

Thanks,

Steve

Normal LED Tank light on









Subdued LED Tank light on




LED going into dusk


----------



## tim

They are stunning Steve, never really understood the attraction of discus but you may have just changed my mind, beautiful fish.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

The attraction is they are the King of The Freshwater Aquarium Fish, one minute they are peacefully swimming about, yet occaisionally they can have a bit of a kerfuffle over food and disturb enough sand to almost uproot an Amazon Sword Plant


----------



## alto

Fantastic update!
so glad you were able to source an established shoal & well worth the drive.

I'm not much for the painted Discus (some of them are brilliant art but just not something I want in my aquarium) but the wilds are amazing.

Really like the look of the Discus with the sand & limited plants.

Hoping for Daily .... OK ....  Weekly Updates  




Now don't read the following unless interested in unasked for opinion 

I'd ditch the rainbows - too distracting 
& you'll likely observe a change in discus behaviour afterwards - even if you don't see any apparent (negative) impact while the rainbows are there 

It's also much easier to feed the tank (especially longterm water quality/filter maintenance) if Discus only - try to choose tankmates with similar or complimentary feeding habits  ... perhaps some bottom cleanup crew whether Corydoras or M ramirezi etc or some sort of hatchet fish (I don't recall if tank is covered  
(none of the fast darting voracious food gulping tetra crew  )

I'd not add any new fish without 4-6 week quarantine.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Thanks Alto,

I am not keen on some of the colour varieties, like marlboro, pinks, bright yellows etc, some videos on Youtube lok like a right box of smarties. Informative and as helpful as ever. You are right there doesn't seem to be any negative effect so far from the Rainbows being present, then again I am not sure what would be a negative effect. Any tips, if it does make that much difference I will probably ditch the rainbows if I can catch them without freaking the discus out. 





alto said:


> & you'll likely observe a change in discus behaviour afterwards


 What kind of change???

The tank is covered and there are a few corys and ottos in there but probably not enough to call a clean up crew. There are that many M Ramirez species / types I wouldn't know where to start, so many colour varieties. I like the Hatchet Fish, Dave Mercer had a shoal in his tank. They all seem to stay aroung the top, so not exactly a clean up crew.

So anyone interested in a bunch of dwarf neon rainbows? Let me know.

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Alto, I like these,

M Ramirez
http://www.seriouslyfish.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Mikrogeophagus-ramrirezi-pair.jpg

Hatchet Fish
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&r...vR5M0bd8FcEOm8RpBmDKGTEQ&ust=1473616130873271


----------



## alto

For Rainbow catching (& most fish) I just use a large net (think 25cm "square" very fine, thin mesh - it seems less visible ... or maybe because the frame is more distant ...) & just move very slowly, never chase, just wait for fish to come close - at this point I remain slow with the net, though some people have a very good "flick" mine doesn't seem to work as well 
Just be satisfied with however many Rainbows you catch quietly, then return later etc

You can also set up a Fish Trap - just google "fish bottle trap"


Sometimes fish are much easier to catch when tank is only dimly lit - I'd not try "night catching" as this will likely freak the Discus  



Discus + rainbows - the discus seem more comfortable & "outgoing" once rainbows are gone - not big changes but more like as expanded range of behaviours; though I've seen some discus change from seemingly shy & retiring to bold as anything within a day of rainbow removal 

Htachet fish are more if you (or housemates ) want a few more fish in the tank - I quite like the _Carnegiella _species, they won't really compete with discus over food

M ramirezi - the natural wild type (as pictured) tends to be a stronger fish, you can sometimes find wild caught stock (likely the hardiest IF acclimated properly, also greater need for soft acidic water though)

If you can find locally bred stock, they are usually sound.

Shop fish, you need to really look at their behaviour & ask the shop for details on the fish, avoid any of the "balloon" & "long fin" mutations, if you can source German or Dutch bred they're often stronger fish, some of the farmed fish are fine, some seem extremely sensitive (note that Asian farms also market some of their fish as "German blue" "Holland red" so you cant assume origin without confirmation from shop)


----------



## REDSTEVEO

10 x Dwarf Neon Rainbows for sale at very reasonable prices.

PM me if interested.

Steve


----------



## Lindy

Beautiful wilds Steve. I have seen them on Chens Discus and if I ever go down the discus rabbit hole it will be wilds i get.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Thanks Lindy, So far so good. They have been feeding quite a lot, which is the only time they get a bit tetchy. Just got to keep an eye on the NO3 and TDS and work out the water change routine.

If you are ever near Chester feel free to pop in and see them for yourself.

But beware, once bitten it stays with you. I bought a huge tank years ago from Oasis Aquarium in Salford and set it up as a Marine tank, Corals, live rock, fish the full hit. Less than 9 months later I went to Germany and saw a massive discus tank. Within a week of getting back home I'd sold all the contents and converted it into a discus tank.

Mad or what...

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Well first water change done today, only about 25% to begin with, cleaned all the glass at the same time nice and steady, and no mad panic or darting around from the fish! So all good so far.

I am using a HMA Filter straight from the tap in the kitchen and I usually set the thermostat on the combi boiler to 29 degrees (its a posh boiler) then run the water in at a trickle. But...I am thinking of using a Hydor 300 watt Inline Heater that I have got lying around, and connecting it to the outflow from the HMA Filter and letting it run from there into the tank. The reason I am thinking of doing this is because it does away with pumping warm water from the combi boiler into the HMA Filter, and stops any messing around with the thermostat, and I think there may be more copper from the hot water pipes than there is from the cold.

Just a thought, what do you reckon.

Steve


----------



## flygja

Glad to see that you're still madly in love with discus. I have given up to be honest!


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi Flygia sad to hear that, I have done the same over the years, it happens to everyone at some stage, but with me it keeps coming back. This will come as a shock, but this time I am determined to keep them, even at the sacrifice of the plants if I have to, so it may evolve into a sandy leafy branchy discus biotope.

But at the moment I an trying to strike a balance so done away with the carpet and foreground plants and stuck with large mid to rear ground plants that can tolerate warmer softer water.

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## Tim Harrison

Lovely fish, and thriving Discus tank, it's not something we see very often


----------



## Greenfinger2

Hi Redsteveo, Wonderful looking fish mate


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Just in the middle of a 50% Water change. One thing I have noticed is the glass has a lot more slippery feel to it when I am wiping it down with the sponge. Possibly looking to install an Eheim Reeflux UV steriliser on the second Eheim filter.

CO2 only coming on twice a day for one hour, lights set to low to medium on the LED. Fish feeding okay, photo update to follow.

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi All,

Use of UV Steriliasation??

Please forgive me if this topic has been thrashed to death in another thread somewhere. If anyone has a link to further information on the topic of UV Sterilisation on this forum please add it and I won't pursue it any further here.

By now you will know on Friday last week I picked up 9 x Wild Red Spotted Green Discus (Rio Nannay in Peru) and they are now in my tank and so far so good. They seem to have settled in quite well and are eating fine.

Current Water Parameters are:-

PH - 6.8
KH - 5DKH
GH - 8DGH
NO3 - 15 PPM
TDS - 170
Temp - 28 degrees
Low tech LED Lighting on 7 hours a day
Plants: Amazon Swords, Crypts and Anubias Barteri

Feeding Beefheart every other day. Other foods include Tetra Prima, Tetra XL Flake, PISCINE Mysis Shrimp, and Freeze Dried Californian Blackworm.

Water change is twice weekly around 50% using a combination of HMA Filter and a RO Water.

I am told by the so called 'Wild Discus experts' that UV Sterilisation is essential so I have been looking at the 20 watt version from the D-D UV Range which use Quartz bulbs and sleeves which are supposed to be more efficient with less UV transmission loss than standard glass bulbs and sleeves. Because of this the 20 watt version is supposed to be the equivalent of a standard glass 40 watt type of UV. See link below for details.

http://www.theaquariumsolution.com/p...uv-sterilisers

I also watched the video on Youtube of the presentation by SimplyDiscus but I think the guy omitted the bit about UV Filtration even though it was on his slide.

My question really is before I go and splash out £124.99 on a UV unit, is it going to make a difference in the maintenance of the health of my discus? Curiosity fuelled by paranoia may well mean that I go and get one just to see if there is any difference...unless anyone out there is going to persuade me otherwise.

Some photo updates below. The large piece of wood floating at the top to the left has now been removed as it served no purpose and was beginning to smell. Hence the curiosity about UV Sterilisation.

Evening Dusk setting on LED





Cloud cover setting on LED




Normal daylight setting on LED







Cheers,

Steve


----------



## alto

I included some link on UV sterilization in this thread (post 16)

There are benefits to UV, it's just not quite how it's presented by the glowing brand ads  

Manufacturer should be able to answer as to level of sterilization provided by their lamp, ie Level 1 or Level 2 (likely you'll need to contact tech support though rather than sales)


----------



## alto

REDSTEVEO said:


> splash out £124.99 on a UV unit,


that's a pretty cheap "quartz" sleeve in there  - while transmission is certainly greater than borosilicate glass, it's far from the sort used in lab grade UV sterilization systems
- but you don't want to even start with the costs of the quartz sleeve nevermind the UV lamp or other components ... problem is that the UV systems sold into the pet trade tend to _borrow_ off the literature from substantially more robust systems  

Manufacturer should be able to provide energy specifics for their system & exactly what it's going to "kill"


----------



## REDSTEVEO

I have had a conversation with Manuel on this subject.

He replied with a very detailed and informative reply. He has confirmed what I have thought all along, I think I just needed a few second opinions to make my mind up.

I will monitor the situation and see how things develop. One thing I agree on is the creation of the natural biotope which is something I am going to progress towards gradually, a steady transformation of siphoning out the substrate and replacing it with more sand, removing the plants from the substrate to attach them to Manzanita wood to suspend from above instead. The plants are too dense and I believe may be harbouring food and other waste which is potentially having an effect on the water quality.

I will keep you posted.

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## alto

Why not just remove fish to a holding bin (50% tank water, 50% fresh)  with filter & strip down the tank, rescape etc, then return fish to completed tank (bin water + fresh)

In this way there's no chance of exposing fish to waste trapped in substrate & released into water column (as you remove plants/ADA etc), also wild fish can be much more stressed by manipulations in the tank, so take note of how your fish react.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi Alto,

Thanks, I am leaving the big Amazon Swords in the Substrate, the plants in the centre of the tank aren't in the substrate, they are sitting on top of the substrate attached to bits of rock, some Manzanita wood etc. It is these plants mixed with Java Fern, some moss etc which I think need to be lifted off the bottom and suspended from above. I plan to move these very carefully a bit at a time and attach to more Mazanita wood and fix along the back of the tank.

This will leave the Amazon Swords to the sides providing cover, the centre would be opened up giving more swim space and cover provided from above by the suspended wood with Anubias, Java fern, and some Trident.

That's the plan, but if I find the discus are getting freaked out then plan B is to do as you suggest. Removing the centre ground plans wouldn't take too long so hopefully no need to remove the fish. I will be startng this on Monday next week.

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi All,

Spent most of yesterday carrying out maintenance and moving things around. Did a huge water change, cleaned all the glass, took out all the plants that were not planted into the substrate and have now suspended them from above. I have tied Java fern, Trident, Anubias and a small amount of moss to some Manzanita wood.

I used suction cups, drilled holes on the stem end of the wood and used plastic covered wire to fix them in place from the bottom of the tank. I did all this very carefully and slowly, and as a result did not freak the fish out once. An hour after I had finished the discus were swimming around and feeding as though nothing had happened. 

I am trying out a few new products from Tropical in Poland. Torfin, Blacklarin, Kettapang Extract, and some new Flake and Pellet food. I will update later how I get on with them.

Just waiting for the slight cloudiness to clear in the water before I take some photos and post an update.

In the meantime on the subject of UV, I emailed DD at Aquarium Solutions to ask a few questions. A chap called Leigh Dawson replied. Here is his response on the subject, "Is UV Sterilisation a Absolutely Necessary"

Dear Steve,

Thank you for your email.

I also keep wild discus and use a DD uv system on my aquarium. I have 11 discus, six heckel and five green/brown and other fish in a 600 litre system.

Wild discus are usually very hardy once settled and can be more resistant to disease than captive raised fish, but they are wild fish and can still become stressed in a captive environment.

I am a firm believer that prevention is better than cure and as we both know wild discus are not cheap to buy, so I always want to protect my fish from any possible disease or stress. Fitting a uv system does help in disease prevention and for me is just peace of mind. You invest heavily in livestock so it is good practice to provide the best environment for them to be in. Problems can occur when you mix wild fish with mass produced or captive raised fish as diseases that normally the wild fish would not get can  be introduced to them and this is where the problems can start. I mix my wild discus with F1 Rio Nanay Angel fish ( bred from wild stock) and captive bred cardinal tetras plus corydoras sterbai. I have had no disease issues but do use Ro water and run a uv and the fish are well fed.

You may end up mixing your discus with captive raised fish yourself so I would certainly consider fitting a uv. I have a group of ten corydoras in my tank and they are a fantastic clean up crew and feed on all the food particles the discus leave behind. I never have to clean my sand as the cory's do it for me. As you are keeping your discus in a planted aquarium you will need some fish to help keep the tank clean. It is really hard work keeping a planted discus aquarium. I know as I ran one and the additional fish help keep things in order. I also have otto catfish as well to keep on top of any algae and all the fish live together without issues.

I also run Rowa Carbon as this helps to keep the water clean as well as I have a fair amount of wood in the system.

You could get away with the 10 watt unit but if you went for the 20 watt uv then it would be fine if you upgraded your aquarium. I usually over size my equipment just incase I upgrade plus it is more than ample for the aquarium it is running on. The 20 watt is better suited to your sized aquarium.

I am sure there are many people running without uv and say they have had no issues but 
I think it is worth fitting one to prevent possible future issues. If the people who have kept wild discus for a long time recommend using a uv and understand the benefits of running one then I would certainly consider their advice.

Good luck with your new wild discus. They are an absolute joy once settled and can be easy to keep if you give them what they need. 

Kind regards,

END

Cheers,

Steve


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## REDSTEVEO

Hi All, (From Peru to North Wales via Northants and Hull)

Just thought I would share some photographs of my Wild Red Spotted Green Discus from the Rio Nannay in Peru.

These were bought from Chris Brampton at Northants Discus by Prapasn 2 (Stuart) and about a year later have finished up in my tank in North Wales.

They have been in the tank now for about three weeks and have settled in well and are eating a very mixed diet of Tetra XL Falkes, Tetra Prima, Freeze Dried Australian Blackworm, Tropical Discus Gran D-50 Plus, Discus Gran Wild pellets, a bit of Yorkshire Beefheart and some Mysis Shrimp.

After much pfaffing about I finally installed a 25 watt TMC Vecton 600 UV to one of my filters last night and did a 60% water change at the same time.

All the fish are looking good except one, which has a white spot / lump on the side of its head just above the eye. It had been doing a bit of flicking and darting over the last few days. I am hoping whatever it is the UV will help it, was thinking of treating the whole tank but the instructions on the meds say to switch off the UV during treatment, which I don't want to do because the UV will hekp eradicate any Ich or Whitespot. I am thinking of giving it a medicated bath in some tank water and salt or a generic White Spot Treatment instead.

Enjoy the photos assuming they all load up, if not I will put the link up to the Photobucket page.

Cheers,

Steve

None of the images have been photo shopped or enhanced in any way, but the changing light intensity of the LED does have an effect on the colouration so I have posted a few in different lights. I would have liked to put larger photos up of all of them but a few look a bit blurry.


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## Ryan Thang To

just pure joy looking at them. would be amazing to have them one day

cheers
ryan


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## REDSTEVEO

Hi Ryan,

Glad you like them. You are right it is a joy looking at them! A fair bit of extra work to do in looking after them, but the pleasure I get from watching them is worth it. When I think about it, anyone who owns a dog has to walk it every day, possibly twice, plus feed it, clean it after muddy walks, treat it when it is unwell etc, so as I haven't got a dog...

If you ever fancy getting some, give Clive Brampton a ring at Northants Discus or better still contact him through his Facebook page.

Cheers,

Steve


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## Ryan Thang To

REDSTEVEO said:


> Hi Ryan,
> 
> Glad you like them. You are right it is a joy looking at them! A fair bit of extra work to do in looking after them, but the pleasure I get from watching them is worth it. When I think about it, anyone who owns a dog has to walk it every day, possibly twice, plus feed it, clean it after muddy walks, treat it when it is unwell etc, so as I haven't got a dog...
> 
> If you ever fancy getting some, give Clive Brampton a ring at Northants Discus or better still contact him through his Facebook page.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Steve


thanks for that steve. definitely keep that in mind. last time i own a 400 litre tank i did say never again hahaha.


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## cooling

Simply stunning fish!


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## REDSTEVEO

Thanks Cooling, I guess that's why Discus are called 'King of the Aquarium'


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## REDSTEVEO

Well Folks, I think it is finally time to draw a line under this Journal, The Full Monty is well and truly over now, so probably best to put it to bed.

Since I invested in the Wild Discus I have had to adapt things so much for their environment that I don't think it is fair to call it a planted tank any more, at least not as we in UKAPS know it. A few weeks ago I started having some issues with a few of the discus fish, I won't go into great detail, but I lost one to 'whirling disease' and one to Hole in the Head Disease, so it was obvious something had to change.

So change it did, out came all the fish, the plants, the substrate and the water. A complete blitz clean of everything, all wiped down in an Acriflavrine solution. Then the tank was briefly dried out before putting things back in. The discus during this time were in a holding tank, all the other fish except the corys and the ottos were taken to a local LFS. The plants, those that were left were cleaned discinfected and placed in another tank while the main tank was being put back together.

First thing to go in was a good layer of ADA Penac W all over the base of the tank, followed by a good sprinkling of ADA Power Sand Special Small Grain size. Then came just over half an inch of JBL Sansibar River Sand, followed by a good sprinkling of Penac P, and lastly another 3/4 inch cover of the JBL Sansibar River Sand. Here comes the bit where everyone takes a sharp intake of breath before they make loads of tut tutting sounds. I had seven or eight plant pots in neutral colours, in each of which I had put a layer of Power Sand Special, followed by a layer of JBL Special Planting Substrate. Each of these pots was seeded with clean tank water, and left until the tank was refilled.

Once the tank was refilled with 50% fresh RO and HMA filtered water and 50% retained tank water, I then re-planted all the remaining plants into the pots and topped them off with a layer of the JBL Sansibar River Sand before placing the pots in various positions around the tank.

Both filters had been left running with heaters and areation so that the tank water was in good condition and both filters kept well seeded. That said I did decide to clean one of them completely before connecting it back up to tank water again. After 24 hours the water was smelling sweet, at the right temperature, and all water parameters spot on. So in went the corys and the ottos plus a few shrimp, and left for a couple of hours to see how things were. Everything seemed to be fine so I then acclimatised the discus in a large barrel by adding tank water into the barrel and topping up the tank with HMA Water. Over the next hour or so I gradually added the discus back in and "voila" they loved their new environment, and within an hour were shoaling around exploring their now surroundings and feeding.

Strangely enough they seem to take comfort from the pots, and it is as if they are using them as 'landmarks', as coincidentally, the way the pots are situated they swim around them in a sort of 'S' bend from one side of the tank to the other.

Now I know when you read this and see all the photos, someone is going to say, "Well Steve, this doesn't look like a very 'wild' Wild Discus biotope to me, all looks a bit sort of artificial like." Well yes, you know what, they may well be right but I have seen people with bare bottomed glass tanks and plastic plants inside with both wild and domestic discus, (no offence to anyone with a bare bottom) , so this has got to be one step better than that at least. The only thing I have done too make it slightly more natural is hang three pieces of Manzanita Wood with Java Fern and Anubias plants attached from the back of the tank. The added bonus is that it is now so easy to maintain the water quality and keep everything really clean. I can see the fish poop much easier so can vacuum it out dead easy, plus I do 50% water changes twice a week with RO/HMA water and use Tropic Marin Discus Pro Re-mineral Powder. I am adding Calcium, Magnesium, plus esHa Optima Vitamins once a week after the second water change.

I am no longer using Co2 or adding any ferts into the tank whatsoever

Water paramaters are:

Temp 28/29 degrees c
PH 6.8
KH 6
GH 11
TDS 263

So that's it folks, 'The Full Monty' has left the building.

Here are some photos of the finished tank, the photos have been taken during different phases of the LED Light change hence the difference in colour and appearance. I also took photos of the 'change over' process but haven't uploaded them yet to Photobucket.

Feel free to ask any questions.

Cheers,

Steve



































Thanks for all your comments and support in the past.

Steve


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## REDSTEVEO

Here are some photos taken during the changeover.

Keeping the Filters Cycled





Storing about 50% of the tank water. Before doing this I had done a few huge water changes in the days preceding the change over.





Making the usual mess!




More mess.









The tank emptied and cleaned at last. Took about three hours.




The second wheel barrow full of the original substrate! I was going to bag this up and take it to the re-cycling centre, and then I decided to add it to the borders around the garden, couldn't do it any harm could it?




Plants cleaned and soaking in Acriflavine Solution




HMA Filter doing overtime. I am about to change this for a new one from Devotedly Discus.




The second lot of JBL Sansibar River Sand gone in.




Tank finally filled with the other big filter and heater on.




I kept the substrate pretty shallow and have a spare bag for topping it up whenever needed.

Cheers,

Steve


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## tim

Shame the journal has come to an end Steve, still planted IMO  please keep Us updated on these lovely fish.


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## dw1305

Hi all,





REDSTEVEO said:


> I then re-planted all the remaining plants into the pots and topped them off with a layer of the JBL Sansibar River Sand before placing the pots in various positions around the tank


I don't see why it shouldn't work. 

Larry Waybright ("Apistomaster") <"uses potted plants with his Wild Discus"> and he is a pretty good reference point



 

cheers Darrel


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## alto

REDSTEVEO said:


> but I lost one to 'whirling disease' and one to Hole in the Head Disease,


Commiserations on this - must've been devastating
(FWIW the HITH is unlikely to have had much to do with your care, it's a long term issue; similarly the "whirling disease" in wild angels (& likely discus) is thought to be a (long term) virus ... both may've triggered just through the stress of moving etc but it's always good to take preventative measures )


I hope you continue to journal your experiences with these amazing fish


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## REDSTEVEO

tim said:


> Shame the journal has come to an end Steve, still planted IMO  please keep Us updated on these lovely fish.



Thanks Tim,

I will probably post updates but in a new thread, not sure what to call it though

Steve


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## REDSTEVEO

alto said:


> I hope you continue to journal your experiences with these amazing fish



Thanks Alto, a new thread methinks, The Full Monty is done.

Cheers,

Steve


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## REDSTEVEO

Four years has flown by since I wrote this journal. Where does the time go to.

If any of the photographs are missing I am going to find them on my old Laptop and re post them. The journal is not complete without the photographs


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## REDSTEVEO

REDSTEVEO said:


> Four years has flown by since I wrote this journal. Where does the time go to.
> 
> If any of the photographs are missing I am going to find them on my old Laptop and re post them. The journal is not complete without the photographs


@LondonDragon  is there a way to access an Edit Function in an old thread? I would like to go into the journal and remove those blank annoying Photobucket stamps and re-insert the original photographs. Any way I can do that? Thanks


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## Ray

REDSTEVEO said:


> @LondonDragon  is there a way to access an Edit Function in an old thread? I would like to go into the journal and remove those blank annoying Photobucket stamps and re-insert the original photographs. Any way I can do that? Thanks


I'd like to do that too if possible please.


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