# Headache with water change system



## Tigermoth (29 Apr 2009)

Bought a Y connector and a couple of square tap connectors to fit the kitchen sink taps, hoping to save on carting buckets of water around. After connecting it all up, I've found that the gravity/pressure from the hot water isn't sufficient and the cold water goes up the hot water pipe into the cistern, as well as into the tank. The hot will run ok from hot tap to tank if on its own.

The only things I can think of is using two pipes all the way to the tank, or one pipe to a large holding container close to the tank, filling it with hot and cold separately, then pumping it to the tank. Can anyone think of any another solutions?

My ceiling are very low, the distance from hot tap to ceiling is only 3.5', so there's only about 4' of drop to gravity feed the hot water from the immersion heater, which is a Fortic combination tank. Even with the cold turned down low, the pressure still forces the cold water up the hot water pipe.

I got the idea from this thread. What I don't understand from that thread is how the in-line hose taps can be turned off whilst filling the tank, without blowing the hoses off the connectors.

TIA


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (29 Apr 2009)

Tigermoth said:
			
		

> Bought a Y connector and a couple of square tap connectors to fit the kitchen sink taps, hoping to save on carting buckets of water around. After connecting it all up, I've found that the gravity/pressure from the hot water isn't sufficient and the cold water goes up the hot water pipe into the cistern, as well as into the tank. The hot will run ok from hot tap to tank if on its own.
> 
> The only things I can think of is using two pipes all the way to the tank, or one pipe to a large holding container close to the tank, filling it with hot and cold separately, then pumping it to the tank. Can anyone think of any another solutions?
> 
> ...



Tigermoth

Why dont up put an inline tap http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 0194779580 to reduce the pressure of the cold water or put a none return connection above your "Y" connector - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Hozelock-2185-Wat ... 240%3A1318. on the hot pipe - this should stop the cold going up the hot.

Regards
paul.


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## LondonDragon (29 Apr 2009)

Flyfisherman said:
			
		

> or put a none return connection above your "Y" connector - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Hozelock-2185-Wat ... 240%3A1318. on the hot pipe - this should stop the cold going up the hot.


What you posted doesn't seem to be a non return connector but a stop when the hose is disconnected, something like this would be more suitable:  http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Reich-Non-Return- ... 240%3A1318 but I couldn't find something bigger, but would work fine since you don't need a lot of hot to mix with the cold.


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## Tigermoth (29 Apr 2009)

Flyfisherman said:
			
		

> Tigermoth
> 
> Why dont up put an inline tap http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 0194779580 to reduce the pressure of the cold water or put a none return connection above your "Y" connector - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Hozelock-2185-Wat ... 240%3A1318. on the hot pipe - this should stop the cold going up the hot.
> 
> ...



Hi Paul

The first link is a T piece.

The second link is for a Stop End connector. I've taken these apart in the past, so I know how they work. I don't think that will solve the problem. Yes they work as a one way flow device for hoses, but for it to close the rubber seal to stop the cold going up the hot pipe, it would also stop the hot water from running. I think. 
Thanks for the reply.


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## Tigermoth (29 Apr 2009)

LondonDragon said:
			
		

> ........ something like this would be more suitable:  http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Reich-Non-Return- ... 240%3A1318 but I couldn't find something bigger, but would work fine since you don't need a lot of hot to mix with the cold.



Cheers LD.
Do you know how they work? 
I'm sure that would stop the cold going up the hot pipe, but would the pressure of the mains cold water simply block the flow of the hot as it backs-up to the outlet of the non return valve?


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (29 Apr 2009)

LondonDragon said:
			
		

> Flyfisherman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Paulo 

It works on the same principle as yours, it allow the water to flow down through the connection and down the hose pipe - but stops the water flowing back up the pipe and through the connection.

Regards

Paul


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## LondonDragon (29 Apr 2009)

Tigermoth said:
			
		

> Cheers LD.
> Do you know how they work?
> I'm sure that would stop the cold going up the hot pipe, but would the pressure of the mains cold water simply block the flow of the hot as it backs-up to the outlet of the non return valve?


You could put one of these in the hot water connection: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/18L-COMET-GEO-PLU ... 240%3A1318 to create a lot more flow and preventing the cold blocking the hot all together.

Paul, thanks for clearing that up, I haven't used one of those, was going by the description.


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## Tigermoth (29 Apr 2009)

LondonDragon said:
			
		

> You could put one of these in the hot water connection: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/18L-COMET-GEO-PLU ... 240%3A1318 to create a lot more flow and preventing the cold blocking the hot all together.



Thanks LD,I'm sure that would work, just more expense and fiddling about. Also not sure I'd fit it in before the Y connector and still keep the rest of the connections inside the sink. 
The two hose option is looking more attractive by the minute, especially as I've got loads of hose lying around the place. I could even bind them together for extra convenience. 
Cheers


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (29 Apr 2009)

Thanks LD,I'm sure that would work, just more expense and fiddling about. Also not sure I'd fit it in before the Y connector and still keep the rest of the connections inside the sink. 
The two hose option is looking more attractive by the minute, especially as I've got loads of hose lying around the place. I could even bind them together for extra convenience. 
Cheers[/quote]

Tigermoth

Try this - run two pipes side, at the very end put your "Y" piece and then into the tank - use the bottom part of the "Y" as the nozzle. As for securing the two pipes together use some tie wraps.

Paul


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## Tigermoth (29 Apr 2009)

Flyfisherman said:
			
		

> Tigermoth
> 
> Try this - run two pipes side, at the very end put your "Y" piece and then into the tank - use the bottom part of the "Y" as the nozzle. As for securing the two pipes together use some tie wraps.
> 
> Paul



I'm glad you said that, it's something I'd thought of, but was a bit unsure of.
The reason I think the cold is causing the problem is because of the close proximity of the Y piece to the source of hot and cold taps.

Cheers


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## TDI-line (29 Apr 2009)

Low head of water and Fortic cylinders, hmmm. 

Have you tried turning on the hot water tap full on, and just cracking the cold water tap open a little?


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## LondonDragon (29 Apr 2009)

What kind of T are you using?


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## Tigermoth (29 Apr 2009)

TDI-line said:
			
		

> Low head of water and Fortic cylinders, hmmm.
> 
> Have you tried turning on the hot water tap full on, and just cracking the cold water tap open a little?



Yum, boiled fish!  

These Fortic cylinders really suck. There's probably a limescale issue restricting the flow even more.


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## Tigermoth (29 Apr 2009)

LondonDragon said:
			
		

> What kind of T are you using?



Here's a pic of the monstrosity I created. It's not happy, in fact it's in bits.


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## TDI-line (29 Apr 2009)

Tigermoth said:
			
		

> TDI-line said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lol boiler fish.  

I think i'd probably try runnning to hoses in parallel, both cable tied together and cut to the desired length, either tee at the end or both into the tank at the same with a shepherds crook.


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## altaaffe (30 Apr 2009)

Personally, I pre-condition my water to the correct temp and add my NPK, etc, first in two 50 litre bins.
I then use a water pump and single hose to refill the tank from them.


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## Tigermoth (30 Apr 2009)

TDI-line said:
			
		

> I think i'd probably try runnning to hoses in parallel, both cable tied together and cut to the desired length, either tee at the end or both into the tank at the same with a shepherds crook.



I'll be wanting to pump the old water out of the tank, so instead of a separate pipe for emptying, I should be able to attach one of the two filler hoses to the pump, cold would be safest if it's going through the pump. Then put a T piece on the cold pipe near the sink for an outlet. Practically the same system as before, just not mixing the water at the tap end.
Anyone see possible problems with this idea? 




			
				altaaffe said:
			
		

> Personally, I pre-condition my water to the correct temp and add my NPK, etc, first in two 50 litre bins.
> I then use a water pump and single hose to refill the tank from them.



That's one of the solutions that was mentioned in the first post. The only thing that puts me off this idea is changing over the pump and its connections between pumping water out of the tank, then back in. 
Oh, and storage of the huge buckets.


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (30 Apr 2009)

Tigermoth

By the time this thread get sorted you would have done a water change using a pint pot or paid somebody to come and do it for you

Forget the pump to remove the water from your tank - put one end of the hose into the tank water, at the other end pop the hose into your mouth and give it a good suck (pardon the pun) and let gravity take is cause for water removal. 

As for filling two pipe running side by side so @ the mains hot and cold tap your have your tap adaptors or connectors (like the ones in your picture), then your have two straight through joints then you want two pieces of hoze pipe, cut them to a desired length, tie wrap them together, then you want two more straight through connector - one on the hot and cold returns to the tank - then put the "Y" connector , if you wanted to - add another connector and a very small length of hoze pipe to a nozzle (similar to how the pipe comes off your "Tee" piece (as per your pic). I thought you had made your decision last night what you were going to do. Easy peezy 

Regards
Paul.


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## Tigermoth (30 Apr 2009)

Flyfisherman said:
			
		

> By the time this thread get sorted you would have done a water change using a pint pot or paid somebody to come and do it for you



Flyfisherman

Thanks for showing concern over the amount of time I've wasted talking about this.   



			
				Flyfisherman said:
			
		

> Forget the pump to remove the water from your tank


No   

I've been doing bucket method water changes on this 4' tank for over ten years, do you think I deserve a break from it yet? 



			
				Flyfisherman said:
			
		

> I thought you had made your decision last night what you were going to do.



I had.
I was just replying in a polite manner to altaaffe's post.

cheers


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (30 Apr 2009)

Tigermoth

Sorry if i seemed abrupt in my reply.

Do you use an external or internal filter pump.

If you use an external filter pump - cut the water return pipe in half and fit one of these - you will need two sets of them. As one set will be on your water input side to the tank the other 1/2 set will be on a piece of hoze pipe use for water removal.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 0347040943 - they are available in 16mm to 22mm. 

When it water change split the connection and attached the other half which is attached a piece of hoze pipe (that why you need two set) and use you filter to pump out the water from tank.

Pic attached how mine is set up





Regards

paul.


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## Tigermoth (30 Apr 2009)

Paul

No probs, just jesting.

I have an internal filter. Never occurred to me to use that for pumping the water out. I've got a 1600LH powerhead/pump I'm going to use for pumping water out of the tank.

Nice looking set-up there. How come the filter has 3 pipes coming from it? And how rude of you not to add annotation via MS Paint!


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (30 Apr 2009)

Tigermoth

Thx for your comments

Its an Ehiem 2080 - the outer two pipes at the pump and the intakes of which i have one in each corner of the tank and the middle one is the water outlet which passes through a Aqua medic diffuser where I inject my Co2 and then back into the tank. Saturday is my water change day and I disconnect one of the water intake connections lets say the female joint, I then attached the male joint to the connection which has a length of hoze attached - open the taps and the water run out to the plug hole in the sink (gravity feed). Its not fast but whilst its draining I can drain some water off my little tank - Aqua Mode 300 (only 20lts) my bigger tank Aqua One AR980 is 217ltr 

Regards & thx

Paul


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## Tigermoth (30 Apr 2009)

Paul

Sorry chap, I didn't understand that first sentence, I'm a simple soul.

If you're using the external filter/pump to remove water from the tank, how is that gravity fed.  :?  I get confused easily.


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (30 Apr 2009)

Tigermoth said:
			
		

> Paul
> 
> Sorry chap, I didn't understand that first sentence, I'm a simple soul.
> 
> If you're using the external filter/pump to remove water from the tank, how is that gravity fed.  :?  I get confused easily.




I was thinking of you using the external filter pump to remove the water - I break the joint on the left hand side of the cupboard above the filter attach the connector with the hoze attached open the taps and the water drains out by its self - take about 20 mins.

Regards

Paul.


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## Tigermoth (30 Apr 2009)

Thanks for clearing that up.


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (30 Apr 2009)

Why dont you use your existing internal filter to remove your water, remove it from its holder and place on the gravel. I am sure you can adapt a connection to fit on the outlet pipe on the filter and of coarse the hoze pipe will be connected.

What internal filter pump / pumps are you using.

Regards

Paul.


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## Tigermoth (30 Apr 2009)

Paul

Sorry chap, thought I was going mad there for a minute after reading your last post. Entirely my fault, I made a boo-boo, should have typed 'external' instead of 'internal' in above post. The home made beer kicked in quite some time ago. 

Did a water change tonight with the new duel pipe malarkey, pumped out 110L in 13 minutes. That's not 1600l/h as pump is rated, but will do nicely. 
Filling with two pipes went great, both hot and cold taps on full bore, temp in tank stayed spot on as it was. Complete water change took 20 mins, no lifting, no spilling. Get in!   

Big thanks to all who replied.


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