# Brown Algae



## Dinesh

Hi Guys, my tank has been running for about 3 months, 1st month only with plants and few guppies. Later i moved out the guppies and added 50 Cardinals. NOW im having a big problem with the brown algae on the glass. Can anyone please advise the cause. Below are my descriptions,

Tank Size : L180cm X W50cm X H90cm
Lighting : Aquasonic T5 lighting 4X80Watts - 12000K for about 8hrs
CO2 : None
Fert : Ferka (4 pumps each day)
Plants : Anubias and Java Fern
Filter : Eheim Classic


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## Dinesh

If you need any further information to be clearer please let me know i will provide them.


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## ian_m

Brown algae tends to occur in new tanks, see here James' Planted Tank - Algae Guide. Otto's ate all mine (and wiping off surfaces using filter floss) when it appeared a month or two after setting up and not been seen since.

However looking at your tank volume (180 UK gallons/210 US gallons) and light power (320Watts) and light time (8 hours) and no CO2 and not having x10 flow (8000litres/hour) and not using enough fertz you are in edge of disaster territory for an algae take over. You need to seriously reduce you light time/power, please read the Setting up a “higher” tech planted tank | UK Aquatic Plant Society for details.


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## Dinesh

I guess you are right as may tank is new algae may seem to take over but please advise if it  will go away slowly as the tank matures ?? Alright I will reduce my lightning period to 6hours a day .. Is this still too much of light?? Aquashade by Ferka is the fertilizer that I'm dosing. 

 I do not want to get this into a High Tech planted tank. So guys please let me know what would be your choice if you were to Get balance in tank  with  specification. 

I'm planning to add few more plants such as Crypts and giant vallisneria to my tank to take away the extra bit of nutrient on which these brown algae's are surviving. Do you think its a wise idea.


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## ceg4048

Hello,
		Algae only go away when you fix the root cause. As stated previously, you really have much too much light. You should disable AT LEAST 50% of your bulbs, and it probably wouldn't hurt to do a 3 day blackout.



Dinesh said:


> I'm planning to add few more plants such as Crypts and giant vallisneria to my tank to take away the extra bit of nutrient on which these brown algae's are surviving. Do you think its a wise idea.


Your premise is unwise. AS noted by Ian, algae is not caused by the presence of nutrients. It's caused by too much light combined with LACK of Nutrients. Therefore adding more plants without addressing the fundamental cause will not fix your problem. It will only cause more poor plant health.

It's always good to add more plants, but they should not be massacred by overabundance of light and they must be fed. When you reduce the light intensity you will also reduce the need for CO2 and nutrients. In the meantime, a blackout, additional scrubbing and cleaning, plus extra massive water changes should curtail the bloom.

Cheers,


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## linkinruss

Stupid question, but does a blackout also mean that you stop dosing your liquid/dry salts?
Would that also mean turning off the co2 or drastically dialing it down?
Thanks!


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## ceg4048

Not a stupid question at all. Plants can uptake nutrition regardless of light so dosing isn't a problem, however, it's easier to shut down CO2 and to not dose during the blackout. That way you can keep the tank completely dark. Prior to the blackout do a massive water change and dose NPK.

This also means no peeking and no feeding fish. After the blackout, mechanically remove debris and do a super-massive water change, then increase the CO2 and dosing but keep the lights at a low intensity for at least a few days.

Cheers,


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## Dinesh

Thank you ... So i would use only 50% of lights on my tank. But when you say blackout, should i never use lights for 3 days until this situation kills all the algae ? I will then do a 70% water change after the blackout ... Hope it works.

Another one for you guys, when i add *Aqua shade* by ferka which has elements like magnesium, phosphor, nitrogen, sulphur and potassium and other trace elements, all the anubias old leaves tend to turn brownish with few brown patches and new budding leaves become crinkled and tips pointing downward. But i have lots of new budding leaves coming out every 4 or 5 days but none of them are growing good ??  What is the case here guys ? Any idea ??


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## Dinesh

Y this that i can't upload any pictures for your reference ?


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## ceg4048

You must upload your photos to a third party site such as Flikr or Photobucket, then embed the link here.

To perform a blackout you need to totally cover the tank and to avoid turning on the lights. Black plastic bin liners are good for this. Wrap the tank as if it were a Christmas present. After 3 or 4 days remove the cover.

Regarding you Anubias, these are all the same related faults. Poor CO2 and poor nutrition. Once you reduce the lighting intensity then the Ferka becomes more relevant. High light = High demand for nutrients/CO2.

Cheers,


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## triumphcarnut

Would this problem be sorted by doing the opposite of the related faults? ie improve the CO2 and Nutrition or is a blackout the only way to go. Just interested as i have just set up my own tank again (300l tank, AP 1400 +UV filter, with twin T5 54Watt 10K Daylight bulbs pressuirsed CO2 system in the making!)


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## ceg4048

Hello,
		Well, performing both actions, addressing nutrition as well as a blackout, will improve the overall chances of recovery. Improving CO2 and nutrition will fix the root cause of the OP's troubles, however, algae like CO2 and nutrition as well. Nutrition and CO2 are required of all plants, but algae can thrive with very low levels of CO2/Nutrients. They can thrive at low levels.... levels which obliterate plants. So the improvement of nutrition helps the plants to recover from starvation, however plants recovering from starvation does not, in-and-of-itself eliminate the algae that is present. So the blackout functions to remove the light which algae need to produce their food.

So when there is overzealous lighting algae can produce their food. They are very small and need only very small levels of nutrient/CO2. Plants, being much more massive require hundreds or even thousands of times greater mass of nutrient/CO2 in order to produce food for that mass.

Therefore, nutrient/CO2 delivery improvement using injection, dosing, flow/distribution optimization etc., will address the long term health issues of plants and the blackout will help to eliminate the algae that is there. If you do not improve the nutrient/CO2 delivery sufficiently, and have not achieved the long term fix, then the algae will return because their spores are always present in the tank. As soon as the health of the plants deteriorates the spores will be triggered into growth at the drop of a hat. So keeping an algae free tank is all about maximizing the health of the plant. That objective is NEVER achieved by maximizing the light, only ever by maximizing nutrition.

If you have a similar setup in the making, then I highly recommend that you wait until you have the CO2 and fertilizers before flooding the tank. In fact, if you have never run a CO2 tank before I suggest that you flood the tank before you buy plants and just play with the injection technique, dropchecker, diffuser placement and filter outlet positioning. After the few days or a week or so that it takes to figure things out, then drain the tank and plant. This way it allows you to discover the silly mistakes we all make, such as leaks or pinched hoses or gear not responding as we think it should. When you do finally add plants you will have the kinks straightened out and will make fewer mistakes. This will give you plants a better head start.

Cheers,


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## Dinesh

Thanks.. i will soon upload a picture for our reference.

Alright i will cover the tank with a black fabric or something for 3-4 days... During this period can i continue to feed my cardinals and add Ferka ? Please clarify.


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## Dinesh

This is how my new anubias leaf looks.

Like you said its because of poor CO2 and Lack of nutrients. I agree with you on the 1st point .. As i do not have CO2 injection there may be poor CO2 but how is lack of nutrients possible when i still give Aquashade by ferka dosing.


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## ceg4048

Dinesh said:


> Alright i will cover the tank with a black fabric or something for 3-4 days... During this period can i continue to feed my cardinals and add Ferka ?


No, forget about the cardinals. They do not need to be fed and the pollution caused by feeding is part of the problem.



Dinesh said:


> how is lack of nutrients possible when i still give Aquashade by ferka dosing.


I cannot see the photo. It doesn't appear in my browser. In any case Ferka, like ALL commercial fertilizers is very dilute and does not provide enough nutrition, at the bottle suggested dosing, for plants that are being bombarded by so much light. If you were dosing 10X as much as suggested on the bottle then that might be sufficient. You've basically paid for water in a bottle. Again, this might be OK under low lighting. The combination of your Ferka plus food and fish waste would be OK. Under strong lighting the demand for nutrients rises sharply.

Cheers,


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## triumphcarnut

ceg4048 said:


> Hello,
> Well, performing both actions, addressing nutrition as well as a blackout, will improve the overall chances of recovery. Improving CO2 and nutrition will fix the root cause of the OP's troubles, however, algae like CO2 and nutrition as well. Nutrition and CO2 are required of all plants, but algae can thrive with very low levels of CO2/Nutrients. They can thrive at low levels.... levels which obliterate plants. So the improvement of nutrition helps the plants to recover from starvation, however plants recovering from starvation does not, in-and-of-itself eliminate the algae that is present. So the blackout functions to remove the light which algae need to produce their food.
> 
> So when there is overzealous lighting algae can produce their food. They are very small and need only very small levels of nutrient/CO2. Plants, being much more massive require hundreds or even thousands of times greater mass of nutrient/CO2 in order to produce food for that mass.
> 
> Therefore, nutrient/CO2 delivery improvement using injection, dosing, flow/distribution optimization etc., will address the long term health issues of plants and the blackout will help to eliminate the algae that is there. If you do not improve the nutrient/CO2 delivery sufficiently, and have not achieved the long term fix, then the algae will return because their spores are always present in the tank. As soon as the health of the plants deteriorates the spores will be triggered into growth at the drop of a hat. So keeping an algae free tank is all about maximizing the health of the plant. That objective is NEVER achieved by maximizing the light, only ever by maximizing nutrition.
> 
> If you have a similar setup in the making, then I highly recommend that you wait until you have the CO2 and fertilizers before flooding the tank. In fact, if you have never run a CO2 tank before I suggest that you flood the tank before you buy plants and just play with the injection technique, dropchecker, diffuser placement and filter outlet positioning. After the few days or a week or so that it takes to figure things out, then drain the tank and plant. This way it allows you to discover the silly mistakes we all make, such as leaks or pinched hoses or gear not responding as we think it should. When you do finally add plants you will have the kinks straightened out and will make fewer mistakes. This will give you plants a better head start.
> 
> Cheers,


 
Thanks for the reply and I sort of had that figured.... you cant fix somethings without undoing the damage.

If you live in a glass house and stop throwing stones then the glass will no longer get broken but the glass that was already broken wont fix itself!


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## Dinesh

Thank you... im not going to feed my cardinals during the blackout. Will start from tomorrow.


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## Dinesh

ceg4048 said:


> No, forget about the cardinals. They do not need to be fed and the pollution caused by feeding is part of the problem.
> 
> I cannot see the photo. It doesn't appear in my browser. In any case Ferka, like ALL commercial fertilizers is very dilute and does not provide enough nutrition, at the bottle suggested dosing, for plants that are being bombarded by so much light. If you were dosing 10X as much as suggested on the bottle then that might be sufficient. You've basically paid for water in a bottle. Again, this might be OK under low lighting. The combination of your Ferka plus food and fish waste would be OK. Under strong lighting the demand for nutrients rises sharply.
> 
> Cheers,


 
I have created a profile in flckr and it was there were i had uploaded the pictures. Will try sending few more pictures to you. Bro i will keep the lighting as low as possible going forward after the blackout... like only 50% (2X80watts) for 5hrs everyday with 5 pumps of Ferka as suggested on the bottle .. But tell me what would you do to attain a lush green environment with good plant growth in a tank of my specification. I'm really struck not able to go back to my Malawi Cichlids tank at this movement. Please share your thoughts.


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## Nathaniel Whiteside

Wow.. 4x80 watts without co2 is asking for problems


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## Dinesh

I've edited the hyperlink to show the image inline.
CEG.


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## Dinesh




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## Dinesh




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## Dinesh

Whitey89 said:


> Wow.. 4x80 watts without co2 is asking for problems


 
I just have anubias and java fern in my tank... So you think even these plants require CO2 ?


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## ian_m

Looks like you will have enormous flow issues with a tank this size and depth. The filter intake should possibly go right to the bottom of the tank to try an collect all the detritus falling to the bottom. Also you don't mention the exact filter model number, but it looks like 16mm piping, which means the filter is probably hopelessly too small for a tank this size. I have 22mm piping & 1500 litres per hour (+ another 600litre per hour filter) on only 180 litres.

If you are going high tech (which is certainly necessary with that amount of light) you are looking possibly at 8000litre per hour filter capacity  Of course you could do it with 2 off monster filters and some wavemakers/circulation pumps.


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## ceg4048

I've edited the posts to show the images inline.

Every plant needs CO2 but some are more efficient than others. Anubias and ferns are some of the more efficient and it is not required to enrich CO2 - as long as you keep the lighting low. When the lighting is high these are some of the first plants that show signs of deficiency, so keep the lighting low and there will not be any need to get more complicated.

Cheers,


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## Dinesh

ian_m said:


> Looks like you will have enormous flow issues with a tank this size and depth. The filter intake should possibly go right to the bottom of the tank to try an collect all the detritus falling to the bottom. Also you don't mention the exact filter model number, but it looks like 16mm piping, which means the filter is probably hopelessly too small for a tank this size. I have 22mm piping & 1500 litres per hour (+ another 600litre per hour filter) on only 180 litres.
> 
> If you are going high tech (which is certainly necessary with that amount of light) you are looking possibly at 8000litre per hour filter capacity  Of course you could do it with 2 off monster filters and some wavemakers/circulation pumps.


 
i do not want my tank to be a High tech. I will reduce the lighting by 50% so it should be 2X80watts. How do you find this for my tank specification. Ya getting the intake pipe to the bottom will actually take more waste material in will try it . My Eheim filter reads 1000/hr. apart from this I have the black boyu internal filter which gives strong water movements.


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## Dinesh

ceg4048 said:


> I've edited the posts to show the images inline.
> 
> Every plant needs CO2 but some are more efficient than others. Anubias and ferns are some of the more efficient and it is not required to enrich CO2 - as long as you keep the lighting low. When the lighting is high these are some of the first plants that show signs of deficiency, so keep the lighting low and there will not be any need to get more complicated.
> 
> Cheers,





ceg4048 said:


> I've edited the posts to show the images inline.
> 
> I knew Anubias and java fern require less light but never knew they would be fine with low lighting ..  Say only 50% of lighting in my tank.
> 
> So keeping light as low as possible is going to bring some Nice plant growth with some ferka addition. I'm just keeping it this simple. Also in the pictures you can find Anubias new leaves crinkling and pointing downwards so even this will be sorted out by reducing the lighting. Right ??
> 
> Also suggest me few low light plants for my tank spec.


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## sanj

I think much has already been said.

I just wanted to confirm that Anubias and ferns can do very well in low light, low tech setups, albeit they grow slowly. Anubias in my experiance seem to do better than Java fern under low light. One thing that Anubias can suffer from is Green spot Algae, I get this in my more high tech tanks, but not at all in the low light tanks that only have gravel substrate, Anubias attached to rocks and only a sponge filter. I still do weekly 50% water changes though, but then they are breeding tanks.


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## ceg4048

Yes, anubias an ferns can excel in nothing more than light coming through the window to the tank. You really don't even need to turn the tank light on at all. Mosses also do well, Riccia, some stems such as Hygrophila polysperma 'Rosanervig', which is a lovely plant having pink veining, common Ludwigias such as L. repens. Carpet plants such as Pogostemon helferi can be grown. Almost all of the crypts and swords are OK in low tech. Vallis is a popular low tech plant as well.

The crinkling and leaf deformation is due to CO2 starvation. Once the lighting is lowered to within reason the CO2 demand is reduced and the deformation will not appear on new leaves. It's not likely the the existing leaves will straighten out but this is not a big deal. Just chop them off and the new ones will grow in.

Cheers,


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## Dinesh

sanj said:


> I think much has already been said.
> 
> I just wanted to confirm that Anubias and ferns can do very well in low light, low tech setups, albeit they grow slowly. Anubias in my experiance seem to do better than Java fern under low light. One thing that Anubias can suffer from is Green spot Algae, I get this in my more high tech tanks, but not at all in the low light tanks that only have gravel substrate, Anubias attached to rocks and only a sponge filter. I still do weekly 50% water changes though, but then they are breeding tanks.


 
Thank you letting me know anubias can survive in low lights.. Can you update a picture of your low tech tank anubias in here ? Im wondering about their growth and color.


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## Dinesh

ceg4048 said:


> Yes, anubias an ferns can excel in nothing more than light coming through the window to the tank. You really don't even need to turn the tank light on at all. Mosses also do well, Riccia, some stems such as Hygrophila polysperma 'Rosanervig', which is a lovely plant having pink veining, common Ludwigias such as L. repens. Carpet plants such as Pogostemon helferi can be grown. Almost all of the crypts and swords are OK in low tech. Vallis is a popular low tech plant as well.
> 
> The crinkling and leaf deformation is due to CO2 starvation. Once the lighting is lowered to within reason the CO2 demand is reduced and the deformation will not appear on new leaves. It's not likely the the existing leaves will straighten out but this is not a big deal. Just chop them off and the new ones will grow in.
> 
> Cheers,


 
Thank you so much bro, you have given a clear idea of plants that i should be looking to add without having to do any other additional equipments like filter, co2 etc.... Will try to source some here locally and will update you the pictures once i get them.

Will have lights really low in my tank so i will keep the plants CO2 requirement also low.

I just started the PARTIAL blackout today, with no bulbs ON. I haven't covered the tank completely as that is going to scare people coming into my home because my aquarium stands right in the entrance. Will continue this for 3-4days and see if this kills algae. Can i do a 50% water change during this NO LIGHT period ??


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## ceg4048

Hi,
	During the real blackout it's best to not do anything. Just keep the filters running and have patience. Those plant in particular are impervious to blackouts so the blacker, the better. I guess you can put up police barrier tape or "Wet Floor" sign or something just to throw people off the track...

Cheers,


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## Dinesh

I will be getting the tank covered completely atleast for 2 days... LET THE BLACKOUT BEGIN..


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## Dinesh

image | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


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## Dinesh

IMG_2485 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


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## Dinesh

IMG_2486 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


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## Dinesh

These are pictures of my java fern and i have no clue about whats happening and why they are going down.. Last picture shows my narrow leaf also with the black coloration. HELP


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## ceg4048

The reasons are as follows:


Dinesh said:


> Lighting : Aquasonic T5 lighting 4X80Watts - for about 8hr...


PLUS


Dinesh said:


> CO2 : None


 
Cheers,


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## nayr88

ceg4048 said:


> The reasons are as follows:
> 
> PLUS
> 
> 
> Cheers,



+1


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## Dinesh

Thank you Ceg.. To have a clear idea on the problem with java fern i have attached few close up pictures. Have look at them. i have decided to reduce the lighting period in my tank to 2X80watts 4hrs ..

IMG_2503 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


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## Dinesh

IMG_2502 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


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## Dinesh

Please help and turn all these images in line .... Let me know how you do it


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## LondonDragon

Dinesh said:


> Please help and turn all these images in line .... Let me know how you do it


You will find guides in the technical/help forum, have a look at this post: Resolved! - How do you post a picture | UK Aquatic Plant Society


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## Dinesh

Hi Guys,

After partial black out, 60% water change and hard scrubbing most of the algae are gone.

So im going to start with 4 hrs of 2X T5 bulbs and Aquashade by Ferka. Hope things will be better with this set up.


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## Dinesh

Now im planning to add few Crypta and Vallisneria. Do you think its right for me to go ahead with adding plants now. Please advise.


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## jack-rythm

Go for it! Things are good when we aim to plant 60-80 percent of our tanks   I don't actually know why we only stop at 80 percent! I just read that in a dennerle book  

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


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## ceg4048

Dinesh said:


> So im going to start with 4 hrs of 2X T5 bulbs and Aquashade by Ferka. Hope things will be better with this set up.


It would be better to start with 1X T5 for 6-8 hours and to dose 3X the amount of Ferka suggested on the bottle. Also, continue to perform more 60% water changes and do that as often as possible Generally you don't need to do that on a non-CO2 tank but you are trying to cure an algae problem so that takes precedence.

Add any amount of plants you want, but keep the lighting low because those new plants were grown in air, and now you are flooding them. Do not make their lives more miserable by attacking them with Star Wars light sabers.

Cheers,


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## Dinesh

ceg4048 said:


> It would be better to start with 1X T5 for 6-8 hours and to dose 3X the amount of Ferka suggested on the bottle. Also, continue to perform more 60% water changes and do that as often as possible Generally you don't need to do that on a non-CO2 tank but you are trying to cure an algae problem so that takes precedence.
> 
> Add any amount of plants you want, but keep the lighting low because those new plants were grown in air, and now you are flooding them. Do not make their lives more miserable by attacking them with Star Wars light sabers.
> 
> Cheers,


 
Thank you ceg, i will do as you said. Will update a picture of the tank at this present state, after blackout and water change as soon as possible.

Can i even go for carpeting plants in my set up ??


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## ceg4048

Hi Dinesh,
			 Yes, there are some carpet plants that folks have had success with non-CO2, P. helferi, E. tennelus and even Staurogyne sp. Patience is needed though, due to slow growth - or buy a lot of plant mass to fill the space....

Cheers,


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## Dinesh

ceg4048 said:


> Hi Dinesh,
> Yes, there are some carpet plants that folks have had success with non-CO2, P. helferi, E. tennelus and even Staurogyne sp. Patience is needed though, due to slow growth - or buy a lot of plant mass to fill the space....
> 
> Cheers,


 
Hi Ceg,

I would definitely wait for the carpeting plants to grow and cover the tank. The whole reason for setting a planted tank is to understand the different happenings that take place each day and to look at each development.. Waiting to see the change each day is a nice feeling.

I think ill go with Staurogyne sp along with crypts and vallisneria in my next planting.


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## Dinesh

jack-rythm said:


> Go for it! Things are good when we aim to plant 60-80 percent of our tanks  I don't actually know why we only stop at 80 percent! I just read that in a dennerle book
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


 
Jack, Thats is a nice motivational post asking to go for more plants as im a beginner in this hobby. Will keep you posted with Post planting pictures soon.


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## Dinesh

IMG[IMG_2518 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


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## Dinesh

IMG_2516 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


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## Dinesh

i posted the 2nd picture as per your instruction that i found on Resolved! - How do you post a picture | UK Aquatic Plant Society but i still cannot post the pictures in line. Anyways please look at the iphone pictures of the tank after partial black out and water change. 

What are your ides for my next planting ?? All comments welcome


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## ceg4048

You are not using the right link.

When I click on your link the image appears on Flickr, which indicates that the link is a webpage, not a direct jpg link.

If I move the cursor over the image on the page and right click I get an option to view the image in different sizes, i.e "medium 500" , "medium 640" and so forth.

If I left click "medium 640" it takes me to another page showing the image in that resolution (640 x480 pixels)

Now if I move the cursor over that image and right click I get an alternate menu, one of which is to copy the image location. That is the URL that is needed. Using that copy location and pasting it into our image insertion produces this:




If I select a larger image size such as "medium 800", I can right click that image, select "copy image location" and paste it into the image link box to produce this:





Also, you do not need to use different posts for different images. They can all be embedded in a single post. This makes it less tiresome to read and to write the thread.





Cheers,


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## Dinesh

Thank you ceg... I will post my next pictures that way but its working already because i see the URL ending with .jpg


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## ceg4048

Nice room by the way. Loving the intricate detail on the door. Is that a marble floor? Class act mate. Slippery when wet though. Be careful.

Cheers,


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## ceg4048

Dinesh said:


> What are your ides for my next planting ??


I would put something like Fissidens on the wood and some kind of other moss on the rocks. Also, you could mount some needle leaf fern in the crook of the wood which would add that third dimension to the planting. A nice crypt wendetii brown would change up the color scheme a bit as well.

Cheers,


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## LondonDragon

Use the Insert Image button when posting the image URL and don't just paste the link into the image, otherwise it just assumes its a link!


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## Dinesh

Ceg, Thanks mate and yes the flooring is complete italian marble. Should be really careful when wet.


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## Dinesh

The problem with moss is tying them on to the rock. It took a lot a time and pain to put those rocks in place. And its going to be really difficult to take them out and tie the moss and put back in the tank. So i think i will instead tie few Fissidens and other mosses on the wood like patches here and there. Between will they thrive in a none co2 set up ??

Crypt wendetii brown is definitely a nice idea as this will give different color scheme to the tank. Thanks for the idea but this depends on the availability of plants here in India. Do you guys know any reliable source in india.


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## ceg4048

You can use superglue to fix the moss to surfaces. Lower the water level to expose the surface and dab a bit on on it. Use the gel type super glue. Mosses and ferns do very well in bob-CO2, you just have to be patient. These are the plants that people grew before CO2 became widespread. Anything that grows naturally in your country will do well in that tank, no worries at all mate. What I envision in that tank which seems fairly tall (there's too much blank space in the upper areas) is the use of very thin and tall "branching out" type wood that stretches out horizontally at it's top, sort of like an Acacia tree on the African savannah. Then glue moss on the "branches" so that when they grow in it simulates a mango tree. Very appropriate for an Indian tank Willow moss or Xmas moss would look really cool forming the "leaves" of the tree. 

I'm fairly certain that if you contact any of our sponsors they can arrange shipment to your location.

Cheers,


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## Dinesh

Mate your concept of filling the area with tree like structure is awesome.. But im having no clue on how to start it. May be with all your help i can bring up such scape. First let me try to attach few mosses to the existing wood, so we can see the result of moss in my tank.

Regarding your idea of tree structure, i know getting wood is the first and foremost step in this process, so i will try inquiring for such woods in India. In the meantime if you guys find any woods with our sponsors then let me know. BUT THIS PROJECT IS ONLY AFTER GETTING THE PRESENT SETUP AND PLANTS TO A NORMAL CONDITION


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## ceg4048

Yeah, absolutely mate. Without a doubt, our sponsors TGM and AE will have the root type wood. Check their websites.

Cheers,


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## sanj

Dinesh said:


> Regarding your idea of tree structure, i know getting wood is the first and foremost step in this process, so i will try inquiring for such woods in India.


 
Are you based in India or UK? I just looked back at your photos and saw the living room, looks like a house in India to me. 
I would have thought you must be able to source some excellent wood overthere. The piece you already have in the tank is very nice tree structure. I notice the Indonesian guys have access to real nice wood scape i am sure you would be able too.


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## Dinesh

Ceg, i will first try to source it locally in my place as one of my friend had promised me to get few strange tree looking woods. Will post pictures once i get any update from him.  If not satisfied then i will try one of our sponsor.


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## Dinesh

sanj said:


> Are you based in India or UK? I just looked back at your photos and saw the living room, looks like a house in India to me.
> I would have thought you must be able to source some excellent wood overthere. The piece you already have in the tank is very nice tree structure. I notice the Indonesian guys have access to real nice wood scape i am sure you would be able too.


 
Hi Sanj, You are right and your absolutely guessed it with the living room. Hope i do get good woods here in india. And between both the tank of yours look stunning. Keep doing great scapes mate.


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## Dinesh

Hey Ceg, narrow leaf ferns are starting to give out new sprouts on the leaves. Hope the baby plants survives unlike the parent plant which is dying.


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## ceg4048

Hi Dinesh,
			 Well there are a couple of things that could be happening. The young plant is small so has smaller CO2 requirements, plus, if it is still attached to the large leaf may be leeching. Also, it could be that the leaves of the young plant are better adapted to life submerged than the main plant, which may have been grown emersed. Oftentimes, when you place a plant underwater, or apply environmental stress, the original leaves perish but the plant recovers and sends out new leaves with a completely different construction that is better able to cope with being flooded and is more efficient at gathering CO2.

Cheers,


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## Dinesh

ceg4048 said:


> Hi Dinesh,
> Well there are a couple of things that could be happening. The young plant is small so has smaller CO2 requirements, plus, if it is still attached to the large leaf may be leeching. Also, it could be that the leaves of the young plant are better adapted to life submerged than the main plant, which may have been grown emersed. Oftentimes, when you place a plant underwater, or apply environmental stress, the original leaves perish but the plant recovers and sends out new leaves with a completely different construction that is better able to cope with being flooded and is more efficient at gathering CO2.
> 
> Cheers,


Hi Ceg,
The baby plant is still attached to the parent plant and it must be leeching. Hope is gets acclimatized to being flooded condition. Excited. So i can now breath easy as the ferns are sprouting the water parameters must me ok (i'm not meaning my water parameters are perfect but still lies within acceptable range to grow plants submerged)....... other plants in my tank i.e anubias which was showing crinkling in new leaves and regular fern which is having black spots will also slowly get adopted to being flooded and will develop itself to these conditions. Right ??


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## ceg4048

The only parameter that counts is the level of CO2. The adaptations that plants make when submerged are all about the functions of collecting CO2 and exchanging gases such as Oxygen. When the lighting is intense it causes many problems with those functions.

Cheers,


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## Dinesh

Mate can i induce liquid CO2 and see if that is helping my anubias and ferns ?? If yes advise me some better options for liquid CO2.


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## ceg4048

Hi Dinesh,
			   Well, yes you can, but it's a large tank and that would consume quite a bit of the liquid...and that really needs to be done every day....and you would need to do more frequent large water changes...and if you use more liquid carbon you then should also increase the fertilizer dosing...and...and all of a sudden the train rolls down the hill without brakes and it departs the station without you.

If I were going to spend more money, I would, in this case, chose to spend it on more plants to fill that space, however if you can tick all or most the boxes I listed above then sure, adding CO2 in any form will improve the growth rates, but there is also a different set of problems associated with enriching a tank with Carbon. There are PLENTY of Carbon enriched tanks with algae as well - they just have a different algae because the problems are different.

If you have access to hospital supplies and reagents you might try to get access to gluteraldehyde, because that's basically what liquid carbon products are. Then you can mix your own for much cheaper. If you have to this product at your location then shipping isn't a problem but prices may be.

You could start off by dosing the bottle instructions once per day and that would give an advantage which would improve as the dosage increases.

Cheers,


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## Dinesh

Ceg, i understand that when once i start inducing co2 other requirements of the plants are alo going to increase. But at this present situation where none of my plants new growth are showing any good signs i think i should ATLEAST try these liquid co2 for some time till i get some improvement over the new growth.

Once after getting goods sign from my plants new growth then i can think of something which is more economical in long run.


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## ceg4048

Yeah mate, I totally understand. I know exactly how you feel. As I mentioned, if cost is not prohibitive and if you are willing to do a little extra work, I see no reason that it cant be accomplished. It's just very scary for me to think about a two meter liquid carbon tank. I hope you have some extra Italian marble tiles. You might have to sell a few on ebay to support this liquid carbon habit. 

Cheers,


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## Dinesh

Mate cost shouldnt be problem but will be strictly limited only to equipments which assists to attain a lush green scape and i do not want to spend on fishes ad plants. I mean I dont want to put alot of plants to just to cover the tank quickly but instead let the plants take over and cover all by its new growth over a period of time once their basic needs are met. For this i'm going to first try with liquid co2 only to understand basics with planted tank
In long run liquid co2 like you said its going to really expensive for tank this size. So later i will opt pressurized set up. Is it right ?? I again need you guys help in selecting the right type of pressurized options.


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## ceg4048

Hi mate,
			Yes that's right. I also suggest that you visit the webpage of any of our sponsors that sell the dry powder fertilizers and use these instead of the commercial liquid you currently use. As sanj mentions, if you live in India you should be able to find all kinds of native aquatic plants if there are any waterways nearby. I know it's a big country though so you might not have direct access.

If you intend to go down the path of a CO2 enriched tank, then it's advisable to read the articles in the Tutorial section of the forum. Even though the articles assume the reader has gas injection, you can ignore that because the rest of the information still applies.

When you're ready to use a gas system then just let us know.

Cheers,


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## Dinesh

Ceg,
I got  a seachem 1ltr liquid carbon. Hope that will last for about a month and half. But once the 1st bottle of liquid carbon gets over there is no turning back, just want to switch over to pressurized gas cylinder. Because like you said in long run liquid carbon is definitely not a good idea. So please guide me with pressurized set up .. will start to gather bits and parts right away by your advise. So once a after month when my liquid carbon ceases to exist i will have all bits and parts in my hand required to inject gas into my tank.

Its hard to find any naturally submerged plants in the place where in live....I do find few LFS having few stem plants but my worry is all about the snails that they give it along with the plants. It just blooms in some time causing my tank look very messy. If they were snail free then i would not have any problem with these LFS.


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## Dinesh

Mate will a DIY yeast based co2 injection work in my tank ?


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## ceg4048

Hi Dinesh,
Really I would strongly advise to stay away from yeast based systems in general, and on that size tank in particular, because that's another set of problems altogether, primarily because you have very poor control of the gas production, which induces some forms of algae that are a lot tougher to get rid of than brown algae. If you're going to do gas then do it right.

There are many different competent gas cylinder regulators, so that part is easy, but the difficult part is always finding a regular supply of the gas. You can use CO2 fire extinguishers and follow the guide in the Tutorial section Fire extinguisher CO2 | UK Aquatic Plant Society or you can use any cylinder that contains liquid CO2 such as beverage cylinders or welding cylinders. There should be an industrial gas company or companies that supply professional CO2 cylinder rentals and refill/replacement.

The most important feature of the cylinder, wherever you get it from, is that the coupling on the cylinder valve uses the European standard DIN477. In that way, you can fit a regulator like the one shown here on TGM website: Aquamedic Regulator

Then, to control when the gas turns on and off automatically (without your having to remember every day) you would do well to get a solenoid like the on pictured on TGM SolenoidNow, this isn't strictly required, because you can just leave the gas running 24 hours per day. It's probably worthwhile to try both ways, just to see which is more hassle free and which gives the best results. If you do use a solenoid then you'll need a timer to tell the solenoid when to co on and off and when to turn the tank lights on and off. I'm just being lazy here, so I'm staying on the TGM website just to show you examples: Electro-Mechanical Timer
Again, I'm also assuming that India uses 220V and those big cumbersome three-pronged plugs. I'll let you figure out any needed adapters, especially if you wind up buying from Asia, or from mainland Europe instead of UK.

The next thing you need to think about is how to mix the gas with the water. For smaller tanks, it's easy enough to put an "airstone" like disk inside the tank, but for behemoths such as what you have, it might be a better idea to use what's called an "in-line" device where the output of the filter mixes with the gas before it returns to the tank. These devices seem to work better in larger tanks, but it's up to you depending on how elegant you want the tank to look. Have a look at this page: TGM Diffuser Types
The only two in-line devices on that page are the Aquamedic AM1000 and the CalAqua
There are other types such as the UpAtomizers that are less expensive and work just as well as these. If you are handy, you can even make your own reactor out of nothing more than PVC tubing and some fittings.

After these items, the rest are sundries such as CO2 compatible tubing and dropcheckers, 4dkh water and pH reagent, all of which are very easy to get. I would suggest that you stick with any of our sponsors who sell this gear. AquaEssentials offers similar equipment.

Hope this helps!

Cheers,


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## Dinesh

ceg4048 said:


> Hi Dinesh,
> Really I would strongly advise to stay away from yeast based systems in general, and on that size tank in particular, because that's another set of problems altogether, primarily because you have very poor control of the gas production, which induces some forms of algae that are a lot tougher to get rid of than brown algae. If you're going to do gas then do it right.
> 
> There are many different competent gas cylinder regulators, so that part is easy, but the difficult part is always finding a regular supply of the gas. You can use CO2 fire extinguishers and follow the guide in the Tutorial section Fire extinguisher CO2 | UK Aquatic Plant Society or you can use any cylinder that contains liquid CO2 such as beverage cylinders or welding cylinders. There should be an industrial gas company or companies that supply professional CO2 cylinder rentals and refill/replacement.
> 
> Dinesh : So the first step in injecting co2 is sourcing a co2 cylinder. I think i can get the Fire extinguisher as most of my factories have them as a safety measure. I can talk to the person who has supplied those fire extinguishers to my factories and get a good new one. Will update once i do some talking with the concerned person.
> 
> The most important feature of the cylinder, wherever you get it from, is that the coupling on the cylinder valve uses the European standard DIN477. In that way, you can fit a regulator like the one shown here on TGM website: Aquamedic Regulator
> 
> Dinesh : Next is regulator, mate i just checked TGM and it says it has only the regulator with needle. But i found few other regulators that had needle valve, solenoid and bubble counter on the same instrument. How do you suggest that ? Are they reliable ? But to be frank in this matter, i would prefer a regulator with multi-functions like solenoid, needle valve, bubble counter and other parts integrated and also the aquamedic regulator which i found on TGM is expensive when compared to a integrated regulator. Anyways give me few other options in integrated regulator ...
> 
> Then, to control when the gas turns on and off automatically (without your having to remember every day) you would do well to get a solenoid like the on pictured on TGM SolenoidNow, this isn't strictly required, because you can just leave the gas running 24 hours per day. It's probably worthwhile to try both ways, just to see which is more hassle free and which gives the best results. If you do use a solenoid then you'll need a timer to tell the solenoid when to co on and off and when to turn the tank lights on and off. I'm just being lazy here, so I'm staying on the TGM website just to show you examples: Electro-Mechanical Timer
> Again, I'm also assuming that India uses 220V and those big cumbersome three-pronged plugs. I'll let you figure out any needed adapters, especially if you wind up buying from Asia, or from mainland Europe instead of UK.
> 
> Dinesh : Electro-Mechanical Timer. This should not a big task like selecting regulator and cylinder. But timer is definitely a must i guess because i will put both co2 and light off in the night.
> 
> The next thing you need to think about is how to mix the gas with the water. For smaller tanks, it's easy enough to put an "airstone" like disk inside the tank, but for behemoths such as what you have, it might be a better idea to use what's called an "in-line" device where the output of the filter mixes with the gas before it returns to the tank. These devices seem to work better in larger tanks, but it's up to you depending on how elegant you want the tank to look. Have a look at this page: TGM Diffuser Types
> The only two in-line devices on that page are the Aquamedic AM1000 and the CalAqua
> There are other types such as the UpAtomizers that are less expensive and work just as well as these. If you are handy, you can even make your own reactor out of nothing more than PVC tubing and some fittings.
> 
> Dinesh : Whats is the difference between single in-line and two in-line diffusers. Mate i do not want the diffusers inside the tank i feel it spoils the look of the tank... can i have something outside like i can connect it to my Eheim so the co2 dissolved water will come out through spray bar regularly.
> 
> After these items, the rest are sundries such as CO2 compatible tubing and dropcheckers, 4dkh water and pH reagent, all of which are very easy to get. I would suggest that you stick with any of our sponsors who sell this gear. AquaEssentials offers similar equipment.
> 
> Dinesh : Alright this keeps me a bit of relief as you said this is going to be easy when other major equipments are fixed.
> 
> Hope this helps!
> 
> Cheers,


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## Dinesh

And thank you soooo much for that detailed post regarding co2 set up. Thank You so much for answering all my questions so patiently.


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## ceg4048

No worries mate. That's why we're here.

Yes the needle valve is an important part of the regulator because that's the knurled knob that allow you to fine tune the amount of gas that you inject. Normally it comes with the regulator assembly but I should have mentioned that they are sometimes sold separately.

If you can find a complete assembly that has needle valve and solenoid attached, and at a price you can swallow, then definitely go for it. Another of our sponsors, AquaEssentials has this combined assembly AE Regulator Assy Which is a complete unit. Bubble counters are a simply sundry and is a very easy add on. Don't get too worked up about bubble counters, which are an annoyance anyway because they often leak.

Remember that there are lots of different kinds of fire extinguishers, so just because there is a red cylinder attached to the wall it doesn't mean it's CO2. Make sure you tell your guy/gal that you want CO2 only and no dry chemical agent cylinder. You can mount the cylinder anywhere and just run tubing to the tank. Check the beer breweries, and Coca-Cola bottler's as well. They use CO2 to make the beer and coke fizzy, so you might be able to get a better deal and it might be easier to get the cylinder refilled - that's the second hard part. If you can't get the Fire Extinguishers refilled then you have to keep buying them, and you'll need to have a few on hand to swap them out when the gas content get too low.

I'm not really sure about single in-line versus dual. The two units that I linked to, the AM100 and the CalAqua are mounted outside, and as I mentioned, are installed between an external filter and the tank, so the CO2 and water get mixed on the way to returning to the tank. I assumed you had an external filter, and it needs to be a strong one. If not then you should get a second one and use two sets of spraybars. Here is an example of an alternative to those two, a much less expensive external diffuser: Up Atomizer
Water comes from the filter at the bottom, the gas goes in through the spud on the left and the mixture comes out on the top, then into the spraybar.

Cheers,


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## Dinesh

Mate a quick question ... I just received the Seachem flourish excel. Can i dose as per bottle instruction i.e 5ml for every 40litres after a 40% water change. Will it harm my cardinals in any way ?? Adding lots of carbon suddenly into the tank ???


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## Nathaniel Whiteside

Dinesh said:


> Mate a quick question ... I just received the Seachem flourish excel. Can i dose as per bottle instruction i.e 5ml for every 40litres after a 40% water change. Will it harm my cardinals in any way ?? Adding lots of carbon suddenly into the tank ???



Dose as per bottle, don't go any higher until your satisfied you understand how it works enough.

As the flora content is low, Maybe do a half initial dose, for a week see if you see an improvement, then up to recommended dose. But lighting still needs to be addressed until you can get a pressurised system.

Cheers,


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## Dinesh

ceg4048 said:


> No worries mate. That's why we're here.
> 
> Yes the needle valve is an important part of the regulator because that's the knurled knob that allow you to fine tune the amount of gas that you inject. Normally it comes with the regulator assembly but I should have mentioned that they are sometimes sold separately.
> 
> If you can find a complete assembly that has needle valve and solenoid attached, and at a price you can swallow, then definitely go for it. Another of our sponsors, AquaEssentials has this combined assembly AE Regulator Assy Which is a complete unit. Bubble counters are a simply sundry and is a very easy add on. Don't get too worked up about bubble counters, which are an annoyance anyway because they often leak.
> Dinesh : Yes, i will go with the complete assembled regulator with solenoid and needle valve. I just looked at the AE regulator Assy and they are pretty much what i was looking for ... all integrated. This is interesting and will have this as an option. Will look out for other regulators in the market and if you could help me with few other reliable options so i could finalize the regulator soon.
> 
> Remember that there are lots of different kinds of fire extinguishers, so just because there is a red cylinder attached to the wall it doesn't mean it's CO2. Make sure you tell your guy/gal that you want CO2 only and no dry chemical agent cylinder. You can mount the cylinder anywhere and just run tubing to the tank. Check the beer breweries, and Coca-Cola bottler's as well. They use CO2 to make the beer and coke fizzy, so you might be able to get a better deal and it might be easier to get the cylinder refilled - that's the second hard part. If you can't get the Fire Extinguishers refilled then you have to keep buying them, and you'll need to have a few on hand to swap them out when the gas content get too low.
> Dinesh : You are exactly spot on. The extinguishers what i had in my factory are with dry powder. Just contacted the supplier and had asked him for liquid co2 cylinder. He has agreed to show me sample cylinder in 1.5ft and 2ft, i do not exactly know if how much of liquid co2 can go in a 1.5ft or 2ft cylinder. And he has aslo agreed to refill the liquid co2 cylinder if i get one from him. But the unlucky part is, cylinder is made of steel and NOT aluminium. He also mentioned that maximum pressure that he would arrange in his cylinder is 15psi .... Will this cause any problem and make it not suitable for use in the aquarium ???
> 
> I'm not really sure about single in-line versus dual. The two units that I linked to, the AM100 and the CalAqua are mounted outside, and as I mentioned, are installed between an external filter and the tank, so the CO2 and water get mixed on the way to returning to the tank. I assumed you had an external filter, and it needs to be a strong one. If not then you should get a second one and use two sets of spraybars.
> Dinesh : Perfect, if these are installed between the external filter and the tank then it is fine. But mate they are really expensive and my filter is Eheim 2217. If 2217 is not strong enough then again i will have to get a another stronger filter just to connect it to this diffusers. Definitely this set up will empty my pocket.
> 
> Here is an example of an alternative to those two, a much less expensive external diffuser: Up Atomizer
> Water comes from the filter at the bottom, the gas goes in through the spud on the left and the mixture comes out on the top, then into the spraybar.
> Dinesh : I will go for this option, but can you suggest any other diffusers that are can be fixed between the filter and tank and lie somewhere in this same price tag. Learning lot of things and thank you guys for you support.
> 
> Cheers,


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## Dinesh

Whitey89 said:


> Dose as per bottle, don't go any higher until your satisfied you understand how it works enough.
> 
> As the flora content is low, Maybe do a half initial dose, for a week see if you see an improvement, then up to recommended dose. But lighting still needs to be addressed until you can get a pressurised system.
> 
> Cheers,


Hi Nat,
I just did my 40% water change, will do a half initial dose (10 capful) by tomorrow morning. Then after the initial dose, will carry on with regular daily half dose(2 capful). Hope this should be fine right. Advise if im wrong.


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## Nathaniel Whiteside

Dinesh said:


> Hi Nat,
> I just did my 40% water change, will do a half initial dose (10 capful) by tomorrow morning. Then after the initial dose, will carry on with regular daily half dose(2 capful). Hope this should be fine right. Advise if im wrong.



Sounds alright to me mate, you can increase up to full dose if you deem necessary.

Just be careful, if you overdose, potentially all your neon tetras will be gone.


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## Dinesh

Whitey89 said:


> Sounds alright to me mate, you can increase up to full dose if you deem necessary.
> 
> Just be careful, if you overdose, potentially all your neon tetras will be gone.





Whitey89 said:


> Sounds alright to me mate, you can increase up to full dose if you deem necessary.
> 
> Just be careful, if you overdose, potentially all your neon tetras will be gone.



Nat, Will proceed with half dose as I do not want to harm my cardinals. These fishes have nicely settled in the tank why should they be disturbed. Should I have all my 4X 80W for 6hrs after dosing Excel or 2X80w for 4hrs which I'm following now.


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## Nathaniel Whiteside

Ha never can tell the difference, I thought cardinals had more red? Who knows!!

Anyway, I would keep the lighting as low as possible, although its better than doing nothing, Easy carbo isn't anywhere near as good and cheap as co2. The stronger your lights, the more you'll have to add. Thus more expensive to run.

If clive advises you on a matter, I would follow his guidance to the letter, as he really knows a great deal about planted aquaria. A mind blowing amount. He might waffle on about the matrix every now and then  (  ), so just pick out the parts you need.

Your moving in the right direction with this, and if you can obtain a pressurised co2 system, I've no doubt you'll succeed. 

Anubis' like the shade, meaning you'll have to dose more co2& ferts if you want them to stay in good condition.

Think albino, without sunscreen (co2& ferts) on a  hot day in the desert. Just hand him that cream Dinesh, go on.


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## ceg4048

The Matrix is all around us. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth....

Cheers,


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## Dinesh

Hi Guys,

I just dosed with half initial dosing of Execl. Will continue regular dosage from tomorrow lets hope for the best. Yes, liquid carbon is obviously expensive in long run. 

I'm seriously looking for pressurized set up. Have asked for the cylinders. Will update once I have the sample with me. Aqua essential haven't mentioned about the coupling / Thread on the web page I'm not sure if aqua essential or any European regulators will have coupling / thread that can fit our local cylinders. 

If you have any experience about the European regulators fitting Indian cylinder threads or even any idea about this set up, then please help me.


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## Dinesh

Nat im getting all possible help from Ceg to turn my tank into a descent planted tank. He has brilliant amount of knowledge in planted tanks and I can just see it in his so detailed replies.


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## Dinesh

Great support you are, Ceg.


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## ceg4048

No worries mate.
As far as the cylinder couplings go, It's more reasonable to ask you Indian supplier whether their cylinder valves use the DIN477 European standard. Except for the small disposable bottle connectors, any regulator you buy in Europe will be DIN477. Suppliers in Europe won't necessarily know what is used over by your way.

Cheers,


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## Dinesh

Mate can you suggest me any regulators ?? Easy Aqua Twin Guage Regulator/Solenoid is going to be one option.


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## Nathaniel Whiteside

Dinesh said:


> Mate can you suggest me any regulators ?? Easy Aqua Twin Guage Regulator/Solenoid is going to be one option.


 
JBL m001's are good if you want to stretch a bit


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## Dinesh

Any solenoid valve integrated regulators ?? Your suggestions on this mate. Should have good reliability and warranty.


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## Nathaniel Whiteside

you can buy a JBL solenoid too!

JBL are reliable and covered by a warranty


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## Dinesh




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## Dinesh

Guys i have added two separate 40W T8 bulbs (Red Virtue). This is how it looks. Please advise if this is going to be fine with anubias and java fern when i keep the lights on for 6hrs a day. Seachem Excel and Aquashade by ferka is being dosed daily.


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## ceg4048

Should be fine mate. AS long as you like the way it looks, and as long as the intensity isn't overpowering, there is no reason it shouldn't work.

Cheers,


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