# Dosing Deficiency?



## klolyn (28 Apr 2020)

I am EI dosing, with CO2, and these Hygrophila appear to be showing signs of lacking something.....

Any idea what it may be? Further details of environmental setup as required


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## Tim Harrison (28 Apr 2020)

Can you gives us some more info according to these guidelines?


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## klolyn (29 Apr 2020)

Hi

Details as requested....

1. Size of tank.
400l with sump (50l approx over 4 chambers)
2. Filtration.
Sump - 1. In chamber filter sponges 2. K1 and Airstones 3. Biohome 4. Return pump
3. Lighting and duration.
fluvial fresh & plant 2.0 and fluvial aquasky 9 to 2000 with 2 hour break
4. Substrate.
JBL Mando
5. Co2 dosing or Non-dosing.
Co2 approx 8 bps - drop checker showing pale blue/green
6. Fertilisers used + Ratios.
EI Dosing salts from AquariumPlantFood - Micro 75ml and Chelated Iron 25ml x 3 days a week. Macro x alt 3 days per week
7. Water change regime.
70% on Sundays - although this is a new regime. previously it would have been circa 90l every other week. 
8. Plant list.
Hygrophila as per picture, crypts, java fern. Any attempts to try small leave and carpeting plants has seen them melt away/die off
9. Inhabitants.
Neon, Rummynose, Flying Fox, Clownloach,yoyo loach, Kooly loach, Bristlenose Alec, Boesemani Rainbow, Rainbow torpedo, Columbian and black widow tetras
10. Full tank shot below...

i wonder if the two LED lamps provide the required light to the bottom of the tank - though i would have thought they would be suffiecient. It is noticeable that the full setting of the plant 2.0 is only achieved by pressing the button on the lamp, if left to auto mode it does not reach full brilliancy, which is strange and picked up by others on forum. not keen to layout for new LED (fluvial 3.0?) unless this is the reason why my plants fail to turn into a jungle!!
Whilst the Flying fox can be seen scraping algae I'm not sure if they are wreaking havoc on the plants....

Thanks in advance for any advice for where I'm going wrong...

Keith


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## klolyn (29 Apr 2020)

..further. Im considering ditching the EI for liquid feed - TNC Complete et al. But not sure if its the EI dosing that is the problem (what I'm doing with it anyway) and, of course, it is much more economical to do the salts even if I am, I suspect, putting in too much each dose....

Keith


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## Siege (29 Apr 2020)

Hi Keith,

A couple of thoughts - 

I would suggest it is not fert related, more likely low co2 in comparison to a long lighting period.

Increasing the light intensity will only increase the plants demand for co2, showing up deficiencies faster.


Ps. You also look rather sparsely planted.


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## Zeus. (29 Apr 2020)

klolyn said:


> 3. Lighting and duration.
> fluvial fresh & plant 2.0 and fluvial aquasky 9 to 2000 with 2 hour break



Too long a photo period and a break isnt advised IMO



klolyn said:


> . Co2 dosing or Non-dosing.
> Co2 approx 8 bps - drop checker showing pale blue/green



Have you done a pH profile? To check the [CO2] is relatively stable for first 4-5 hours from lights on
when does CO2 come on/off



klolyn said:


> 6. Fertilisers used + Ratios. EI Dosing salts from AquariumPlantFood - Micro 75ml and Chelated Iron 25ml x 3 days a week. Macro x alt 3 days per week







klolyn said:


> 7. Water change regime.
> 70% on Sundays - although this is a new regime. previously it would have been circa 90l every other week.



So good ATM, but was only doing 25% WC fortnightly 



klolyn said:


> Any attempts to try small leave and carpeting plants has seen them melt away/die off



This could be CO2 related , inadequate flow/fluctuating [CO2]

Whats the output from the pump on the sump and what type of return do you have on the tank - spraybar, lily pipe etc


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## klolyn (29 Apr 2020)

Zeus. said:


> Whats the output from the pump on the sump and what type of return do you have on the tank - spraybar, lily pipe etc



i can't specify the flow from the pump, its quite strong and i have a Co2Art atomiser in place - with 1.5m length to standard outlet spray nozzle in tank


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## klolyn (29 Apr 2020)

Thanks all. noted and i will make changes......



Zeus. said:


> Have you done a pH profile? To check the [CO2] is relatively stable for first 4-5 hours from lights on
> when does CO2 come on/off



Lights ramp up at 0800/0900 and ramp down from 1800/2000. Co2 on at 0500 and off at 1800.

I am going to change this now to 1000 on and 1800 ramp down (take out the break)....with Co2 on at 0800 and off at 1700 (8 Hours Max) i will tune up the bubble counter a bit too

Its sparsley planted as historically if i put loads of amazons etc in there, they all die off, I'm wanting to make sure the current lot show signs of being in the correct environment, with the correct light/Co2 balance, before laying out for more "easy" plants. 

I will stay with the EI dosing regime at the moment and see how the tweak in photo period/Co2 is over the next week or so...

Will update here for your thoughts.

Any other pearls of wisdom greatfully received....

Keith


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## Zeus. (29 Apr 2020)

klolyn said:


> i can't specify the flow from the pump, its quite strong



Sorry 'quite strong' is no help at all  whats the pumps make and model?? Flow is 'KING' in the CO2 injected tank so if we cant access your flow 

With  400L tank 2hrs for tank to reach a peak [CO2] is a little on the lean side IMO, three hours would be better. A pH profile would be better still


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## klolyn (29 Apr 2020)

Fortunately, the pump label was just legible, a TMC Powerpump 4000 and is rated at 3800 Litres / 835 Gallons Per Hour (which i have now noted for records) and is set to max, i also have a powerhead above the return nozzle too. i can make out the bubble mist being sent right across the tank. Co2 timer now set to 3 hours pre lamps on. With a JBL drop test kit, I read the result as PH6.5 to 7 (the Co2 having been on for most of the day - though I have now upped the bubble count since the posts above). i have a new (2 days old) electronic PH tester, but I have to go get some ionised water to calibrate it. So 6.5/7 is my best guestimate against the chart at the moment.

Keith


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## Zeus. (29 Apr 2020)

The pH reading is irrelevant IMO its about how much it changes from lights on till CO2 off



Zeus. said:


> what type of return do you have on the tank - spraybar, lily pipe etc


 
As the type of return makes a big difference to the flow/turnover in the tank


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## klolyn (29 Apr 2020)

Hi
Return nozzle is very similar to this style....


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## jaypeecee (29 Apr 2020)

klolyn said:


> ...i have a new (2 days old) electronic PH tester, but I have to go get some ionised water to calibrate it.Keith



Hi @klolyn / Keith,

I suspect you meant 'de-ionised' water. But, it's not possible to calibrate a pH meter using de-ionised water. In order to do this, you would need to use pH buffer solutions. Which pH tester did you purchase (manufacturer and model number)?

JPC


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## klolyn (29 Apr 2020)

Zeus. said:


> The pH reading is irrelevant IMO its about how much it changes from lights on till CO2 off



i expect to get distilled water tomorrow, to flash up the electronic PH tester, will then report reading before CO2 comes on and again just before the off....


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## JoshP12 (30 Apr 2020)

For your reference on lighting, I found this: https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...parison-fluval-fresh-plant-2-0-fixture-4.html (I know from another forum but it has the PAR values for your light). That may shed some light on whether or not light is the issue or not + you have the aquasky as well. 

My experience with that kind of output (for CO2 distribution + general high turnover, low velocity flow) was not so good  - I fiddled with it ... I went so far as doing that ridiculous lilly pipe re-enactment in the photo below - and it was better than that type of output, but I wouldn't advise anyone to do it -- I can say that since changing that output to a spray bar, I have noticed a huge improvement in the overall health of my tank. 





I used this video as a model for the spray bar:  


Cheers,
Josh


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## kilnakorr (30 Apr 2020)

Plants234 said:


> I can say that since changing that output to a spray bar, I have noticed a huge improvement in the overall health of my tank.



What filter are you using to run the spraybar and how big is your tank?
From the picture it looks like you had lots of powerheads. You still use those along with the spraybar?


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## foxfish (30 Apr 2020)

Hi Kieth, 400lt is never going to be easy to get right without a bit of trial and error but definitely possible and you now have the backing of people who have mastered the art!
Starting with your opening question though, as long as you formula is correct then EI wont be the problem.
In my opinion your issue will be CO2 related or more precisely you plants are not absorbing enough to match your light source.
The overall idea is to offer enough C02 and distribute it equally amongst all the plants in a manner that the plants can use it and without waisting to much back into the atmosphere!

So although there are lots of basics to apply like PH profiles, correct flow the right amount of light, there are lots of other criteria like maintenance, water changing and generally being virulent and watching the tank in detail.
It some ways a big tank will be easier to keep on track due to the large volume of water staying more stable than a small tank but first of all you need to get it stable and running smoothly.

So as has already been suggested, we need to look at flow and C02 distribution, can we see you filter and pipework with the atomiser in shot?
It may be possible to vastly improve you flow without replacing the pump.
Also a Full PH profile will be required and probably repeated several times, this is time consuming but very helpful.


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## klolyn (30 Apr 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> I suspect you meant 'de-ionised' water. But, it's not possible to calibrate a pH meter using de-ionised water. In order to do this, you would need to use pH buffer solutions. Which pH tester did you purchase (manufacturer and model number)?



Doh, correct, i meant distilled. I was trying to make it myself, but it is too much of a phaff.

The pen is unbranded....and came with PH6.86 and 4.0 powders. i have some JBL 4.00 and 7.00 buffer solutions from an old system - could i use them, calibrating it to 7.00 vice 6.86?


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## klolyn (30 Apr 2020)

Hi. thanks for the comment. I have attached a photo of the  pump (and a few K1) chamber - there is approx 2m of 16/22 hose from the pump out the back of the cab via the FE bottle to the outlet. The atomiser is in the sump chamber with the pump. I extended the pipe entering the tank to lower the return nozzle which i think helps direct the mist at a lower level aiding distribution. I'm a little limited in what i can do at the return end as the tank has only small enter point in the corner (has frame and glass sliding panels across the top) but a spraybar could be fettled across the end panel. I'm content the pump has the umph to circulate the tank ok, i would add another powerhead to the front corner to assist water flow if it is required.


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## Zeus. (30 Apr 2020)

klolyn said:


> The pen is unbranded....and came with PH6.86 and 4.0 powders. i have some JBL 4.00 and 7.00 buffer solutions from an old system - could i use them, calibrating it to 7.00 vice 6.86?



Use to have one of them myself . I would use those buffers it will be fine, as the actual reading is irrelevant IMO, its how much it changes once lights come on that counts.


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## foxfish (30 Apr 2020)

So where exactly is the atomiser placed, is it feeding all the gas directly into the pump?
The PH testing needs to be quite extensive, start testing just before the CO2 comes on and every hour until it goes off.
It is really worth the effort but make sure you write it all down so any changes can be compared.


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## JoshP12 (30 Apr 2020)

kilnakorr said:


> What filter are you using to run the spraybar and how big is your tank?
> From the picture it looks like you had lots of powerheads. You still use those along with the spraybar?


 
My filter is the API Filstar XP- M - it would be much better if I had a stronger one, but this is just what I had.

I had lots of power heads - it was the only way to get the flow directed -- I use nothing now except the spray bar and the skimmer (but the skimmer is merely because I want to use it).

65 gallon tank, 24 inches deep, 36 inches long, 18 inches width.


Josh


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## kilnakorr (30 Apr 2020)

@Plants234  Thanks for info Josh.
Just re-read your -thread https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads...-an-issue-or-if-patience-is-the-virtue.60454/
Hoping everything improves


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## klolyn (30 Apr 2020)

I have added a little Ehiem powerhead adjacent to the existing one....The leaves on the plants at the distant end are moving in the current....


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## klolyn (30 Apr 2020)

@Plants234 thanks for the picture of the spraybar. i may make something like that to replace my nozzle....


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## JoshP12 (30 Apr 2020)

klolyn said:


> @Plants234 thanks for the picture of the spraybar. i may make something like that to replace my nozzle....



If you are serious about it, I would do it more sooner than later as you will have to re-do the entire pH profile and dial-in process once you install it.


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## klolyn (30 Apr 2020)

.


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## jaypeecee (30 Apr 2020)

klolyn said:


> The pen is unbranded....and came with PH6.86 and 4.0 powders. i have some JBL 4.00 and 7.00 buffer solutions from an old system - could i use them, calibrating it to 7.00 vice 6.86?



Hi @klolyn

I feared that you might say it was unbranded. But:


Zeus. said:


> Use to have one of them myself .



And, as @Zeus says:


Zeus. said:


> I would use those buffers it will be fine, as the actual reading is irrelevant IMO, its how much it changes once lights come on that counts.



Please be aware that a pH _change_ of 1.0 is a tenfold increase in CO2 concentration. So, if this figure is, for example, 5 ppm before lights come on, it would rise to 50 ppm with a 1.0 pH change. But, if you also use a drop checker, keep an eye on this. Needless to say, your fish are likely to suffer at 50 ppm CO2!

One final thing - if the pH buffer _solutions_ are from an old system, they may be beyond their expiry date.

JPC


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## klolyn (30 Apr 2020)

@zeus I used the JBL buffers to calibrate it and got a reading of 6.85 (Co2 been injecting for approx 5hrs). Having used the dropchecker one at about 0600 (before Co2 came on) i assess it was the hue of 7.5
I will use the pen again tomorrow morning to see what it reads then...to show a pre on and just before shut off across the day using the pen......

i have added another PH. a small Ehiem unit. not having any joy loading a short video to show the resulting movement

Keith


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## klolyn (30 Apr 2020)

@jaypeecee this is my main concern. Flapping too much about getting the correct co2 level may see off my fish off. i will keep an eye on the two dropcheckers.....
i will check the PH levels over tomorrows phase; using the pen and pass the numbers on here (the ppm maths does my head in when I'm looking at a mist of bubbles!!)


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## Zeus. (30 Apr 2020)

Plants234 said:


> re-do the entire pH profile



When I was doing pH profile I was doing it every sat/sunday for about a month before I was happy with it.


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## klolyn (30 Apr 2020)

foxfish said:


> So where exactly is the atomiser placed, is it feeding all the gas directly into the pump?
> The PH testing needs to be quite extensive, start testing just before the CO2 comes on and every hour until it goes off.
> It is really worth the effort but make sure you write it all down so any changes can be compared.



The atomiser is fitted 15" from the pump outlet, not feeding into the pump but the water exiting it on route back to the tank and providing a mist - checker showing green now. I will do the PH checks hourly tomorrow.


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## jaypeecee (30 Apr 2020)

klolyn said:


> i have added another PH. a small Ehiem unit.



Hi @klolyn

Perhaps it's clear to others but I don't understand what the above means.

Probably me!  

JPC


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## klolyn (30 Apr 2020)

@Plants234 thanks for the link to the F&P Lamp. Mine is set to the 18" level, so PAR66 is my level at the bed....

Keith


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## klolyn (30 Apr 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> Perhaps it's clear to others but I don't understand what the above means.



added another Power Head unit - to aid the water column movement within the tank


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## jaypeecee (30 Apr 2020)

klolyn said:


> Rainbow torpedo



Hi @klolyn 

Have you kept these fish before? I know them as Denison Barbs (Sahyadria denisonii). I've not kept them but often admired them. You may find it useful to read about them here (if you haven't already done so)....

https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/sahyadria-denisonii/

JPC


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## foxfish (30 Apr 2020)

klolyn said:


> The atomiser is fitted 15" from the pump outlet, not feeding into the pump but the water exiting it on route back to the tank and providing a mist - checker showing green now. I will do the PH checks hourly tomorrow.


Ok well you can certainly try to locate the atomiser directly in front of you pump that might give you better results very quickly.
Is does not need to be plumbed in just sited as close as possible to the inlet.


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## klolyn (30 Apr 2020)

foxfish said:


> Ok well you can certainly try to locate the atomiser directly in front of you pump that might give you better results very quickly.
> Is does not need to be plumbed in just sited as close as possible to the inlet.



Its a Co2Art in-line atomiser. its fitted into the hose on the return side....its not a diffuser in the sump


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## foxfish (30 Apr 2020)

I know but you can take it out of the line and place it in front of your pump,
You may well  will get better flow and a smoother run without the atomiser in line and even better diffusion and even some completely dissolved C02.
It is just an idea although quite a few guys do use this method, it might not make a huge difference but maybe worth trying.


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## jaypeecee (30 Apr 2020)

klolyn said:


> added another Power Head unit - to aid the water column movement within the tank



Thanks.

JPC


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## klolyn (1 May 2020)

foxfish said:


> I know but you can take it out of the line and place it in front of your pump,



i did try that once before, but since opting for a Co2Art in-line system i have noticed a significant level of mist bubbles coming in to the tank via the nozzle (felt that maybe most of the bubbles were escaping to vent out of the sump than going to tank. I also put a 2m length of hose after the in-line unit which i think helps the absorbtion in the transfer into the tank. The pump appears to cause quite a return flow by itself and i have it helped it with two Powerheads. I have ordered another to place at the distant end of the tank to further assist the circulation current. Im conducting a PH Profile today and hope to see an improvement on the plant health over the next week or two...


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## foxfish (1 May 2020)

OK that is cool, you must do what you feel comfortable with just bear in mind that every inch of pipe will reduce flow and any fitments  in line will also do the same.
The best method that I used incorporated a cut down plastic bottle and a small ceramic diffuser.
For many years I just fed the gas straight into the pump without a diffuser of any kind but used a needle wheel pump.
That was a fantastic maintenance free method but was quite noisy.
Look forward to your test results.....


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## klolyn (1 May 2020)

@zeus @foxfish 
Here you go chaps. readings from today.....let me know your thoughts. Drop checker almost green. Does the bps need a tweak up?


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## kilnakorr (1 May 2020)

I can't help noticing the ph drops and rises again.
You got any powerheads, skimmer or such that also turns on and off?


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## Zeus. (1 May 2020)

0.10pH drift from light on till CO2 off . not bad, almost green isnt bad, but light green better [CO2]


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## foxfish (2 May 2020)

Looks good for the time being, be very careful increasing from this point, perhaps concentrate or seeing what the plants do and if you can improve flow patterns and keep up or even step up maintenance.
See what happens over a few days or a week.
There does seem to be a bit more potential for more C02 but you have to use your own discretion as you are the one in control and watching the tank.


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