# Actual Shoalers



## Thomas McMillan (1 Sep 2008)

For my 72l I've been thinking about possible stocking ideas and would love a main shoal of 12 or so fish (maybe more depending on size). I don't want anything over 5cm though.

The thing is, I want them to actually shoal. I've had tetras and danios before that just don't shoal how I'd hoped they would. From what I've heard, Rummynoses are the best option although I'm not that keen on them. I would love to get some Ember Tetras.

There will also be a pair of Rams in the tank but that's it. Hopefully they'll help to keep them in a tight shoal but I'm not convinced.

Has anyone had any experience with Ember Tetras? Do they actually shoal? I'm open to suggestions too, but only if they keep in a shoal.

Cheers


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## a1Matt (1 Sep 2008)

I always shout out loud how good at shoaling rummies are, but if they don't take your fancy you can't argue with that   

I have had a pair of rams in my tnak before and they made no difference to the (lack of) shoaling from my other fish.
When the Siamese Algae eaters, the ancistrus, or the talking catfish come out, then the other fish shoal.
My other fish are a combo of endlers, neons, microgalaxy rasbora, and lampeye killifish.  Just a few of each and they rarely shoal, but when they do, they all shoal together.

Hope that is of some help.


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## Garuf (1 Sep 2008)

Ember tetra shoal, not in the same way rummynose's do, but they do. The only thing is they need a dither fish to really bring them out as they're so timid.


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## JamesM (1 Sep 2008)

Garuf said:
			
		

> Ember tetra shoal, not in the same way rummynose's do, but they do. The only thing is they need a dither fish to really bring them out as they're so timid.


Fully agree with that. I bought 12 the other day and have only seen them once since putting them in the tank  When they did come out they all stayed within a few cm's of each other and looked great.


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## Ed Seeley (1 Sep 2008)

IME all the smaller tetras with special colouring to signal to other members of the shoal, such stripes (e.g. Cardinals, Neons, Green neons, black neons and Glowlights (now there's an under-rated tetra...)) and tail and fin markings (e.g. rummy noses, head and tail lights and X-rays) shoal pretty well, especially with something like a pair of cichlids or a larger fish that scares them a bit to keep them on their 'fins'.  Their markings have evolved to hold the shoal together in murky or stained waters.

The only tetras I've found really don't shoal much are Silvertip tetras and Phantom tetras where the males stake out territories in the tank, but I know there are many others.


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## GreenNeedle (1 Sep 2008)

Is it no important to remember that most fish dont shoal like you envisage due to that being their safety mechanism as in safety in mubers?

I have found that with smaller fish that are shoalers that after a while they dont really shoal unless they are startled or feel vulnerable.

When first added to the tank they would shoal constantly but after a while and they felt secure they have tended to drift into smaller groups.

AC


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## Thomas McMillan (1 Sep 2008)

Thanks for the swift replies guys!

I understand what you're all saying, and I know that once the fish are comfortable then they won't really shoal unless they are startled in some way but I'm just looking for a shal that will stay in the same sort of area at least, rather than just spread out completely.

What would you suggest as a dither fish for Ember Tetras? I thought they were a dither fish in themselves.

I am considering serpae Tetras or Pentazona Barbs. Although they're a bit bigger than what I would prefer, I think they'll go witht he feel of the scape that I have in mind.


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## milla (1 Sep 2008)

Pentazona Barbs in a planted tank disappear into the background and only shoal at feeding times.


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## Ed Seeley (1 Sep 2008)

Dither fish are typically shoaling fish added to provide an early warning system for dwarf cichlids.  When they are out shoaling the cichlids think everything is safe and are more confident.

Target fish are added as competition to cichlids typically and may be other members of their species or other fish they will view as competition to distract them and focus their territioriality or reinforce a pair bond.

What we're after are 'Threat fish' that will chase the dither fish every so often or ones that the smaller shoaling fish will think are predators and therefore simulate a danger that they will shoal to avoid.


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## Thomas McMillan (1 Sep 2008)

Yeah, I understand that but Garuf suggested that it's best to have dither fish so that the Ember Tetras feel more confident.


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## Garuf (1 Sep 2008)

Not quite sure if dither fish is the right term but a fish to bring them out of their shells, they really come into there own when they are with more active fish. I kept my embers with lampeyes and they were really active and came out a lot more.


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## jay (1 Sep 2008)

The scene we're all after is a 'shoal' of bright nice fish to complement our planting scapes.
You look at the nature aquaiums on forums or in the ADA competion and they have a tight shoal well placed in the tank.
The thing I've found out is most of the aquascapers have usually only just put those fish in the tank a few hours before the final photograph. Therefore the fish are scared, don't know where they are going so they stay tight together and zip along the length of the tank.
We get a shoal of fish in a tank after a few days, they know the layout, they know where the hiding spaces are, so they will just lurk about, almost floating in the water in a loose shoal in most cases.

The only fish I've known to constantly shoal are Rummynose and Danios... in a good fast flow.


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## GreenNeedle (1 Sep 2008)

Is that true?  I wouldve thought that the fish wouldnt be as coloured up as desired if they had only been in the tank a few hours.

AC


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## Thomas McMillan (1 Sep 2008)

Looks like Rummynoses are the only option then - I thought they would be. I'll probably still end up getting Ember Tetras though! Or Coffee Bean Rasboras or something similar.

Thanks for the advice though.


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## jay (1 Sep 2008)

They have usually been in a quarantine tank for a while, well fed and then plonked in the main tank with good water changes. They're fine and healthy, just unfamiliar with their surroundings.
Some people get lucky with a shoal and they zip about all time anyway. My cardinals did, even more so when I added some rummynose, then I added 5 more and the cardinals just stick to the back now. Its a fine line of experimentation with water, lights volume and tank mates.


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## jay (1 Sep 2008)

Thomas McMillan said:
			
		

> Looks like Rummynoses are the only option then - I thought they would be. I'll probably still end up getting Ember Tetras though! Or Coffee Bean Rasboras or something similar.
> 
> Thanks for the advice though.


 
Not really mate. Go with whatever you like the look of at the end of the day, its your tank and you need to enjoy it. If they shoal, its a bonus.


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## Superman (1 Sep 2008)

I would say that my 19 Harlequins 'shoal' somewhat, sometimes they're really close and they're all together. Some of the time they make a few small groups.


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## PM (2 Sep 2008)

My black phantoms and black neons never shoal together, but sometimes they might join in with my rummies.

Rummy noses rule!


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## Thomas McMillan (2 Sep 2008)

The more I think about it, the more I'm beginning to like Rummynoses actually. I might pop into a few LFS next weekend to have a look at them, I've never really paid that much attention to them.


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## a1Matt (2 Sep 2008)

I'm with Jay, go with what takes your fancy.  

They will live for a few years so IMHO it is good you are taking your time to decide what you want.  

I spent months deliberating, then was torn between lampeye killifish and microgalaxy rasboras.  Ended up getting half of each


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## Thomas McMillan (2 Sep 2008)

Yeah, I mean this tank won't be set up for months yet. I'm still in the process of setting up my 35l.


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## willson (2 Sep 2008)

My marble hatches constantly shoal, just really high in the water


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## PM (2 Sep 2008)

willson said:
			
		

> My marble hatches constantly shoal, just really high in the water



Don't they jump out?


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## Ray (3 Sep 2008)

In a really nice Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyphessobrycon_pulchripinnis) on Lemon Tetra's it explains why a some tetra's break up and even become terratorial:



> Lemon tetras exhibit an interesting behaviour pattern in the aquarium, replicated by several other characin species, in which males will adopt 'landmarks' within the aquarium and use these as places from which to display as maturity approaches. Displays are principally performed between rival males...


So in this case you do need the threat fish to get them back in a group.  However, I wonder if the level of threat to get them schooling is also quite stressful and might effect their long term health - could be ethically thin ice to keep your fish scared so they compliment your planted tank...?!


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## a1Matt (3 Sep 2008)

That is an interesting post Ray.  With regards to the ethics I am quite happy that my 'shoaling' fish are relaxed enough that they rarely shoal nowadays.  If I really wanted shoaling again I would buy rummies   ...


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## GreenNeedle (3 Sep 2008)

On the display front, when I had Cardinals (pre washing up liquid)  5 or 6 of them (I assume males) would line up head to toe about an inch apart in front of the large Mopani and just "hang" there, meaning that they would be motionless.

Was quite cool to watch as if they were all tied together and then the thread attached to each end of the glass.

AC


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## a1Matt (3 Sep 2008)

SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> On the display front, when I had Cardinals (pre washing up liquid)  5 or 6 of them (I assume males) would line up head to toe about an inch apart in front of the large Mopani and just "hang" there, meaning that they would be motionless.
> 
> Was quite cool to watch as if they were all tied together and then the thread attached to each end of the glass.
> 
> AC



I've seen that before with a whole tank of cardinals (about 100 in a 150litre tank) and also in video clips of tetras in their native habitat in South America (hundreds of them) ...  All motionless and spaced apart from eachother by the exact same amount. It seems as opposite as you can get from shoaling.  An amazing sight.


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## willson (3 Sep 2008)

PM said:
			
		

> willson said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not yet, seem fairly calm, although they always seem to get in the breeding net, if I've been using it over night


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## Ed Seeley (3 Sep 2008)

I kept hatchets for years and actually lost a few and for ages couldn't work out why until I heard them being startled by other fish in the tank and slamming into the cover glass!  One day too I left the cover glass half open and found one dried up on the other half when I got back from work.  So yes they do jump!  A lot!  

Interestingly they also beat their pectoral fins so they can actually fly for a few metres in the larger species so you could find them far away from an open topped tank!


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## beeky (5 Sep 2008)

Rummy's rarely show their best in the shops because of the bright lights, noise, lack of cover etc. When they're happy, they're stunning.


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## Thomas McMillan (5 Sep 2008)

I've been looking around and it seems Lampeye Killis shoal quite well?


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## a1Matt (5 Sep 2008)

Thomas McMillan said:
			
		

> I've been looking around and it seems Lampeye Killis shoal quite well?



I've got these in my tank right now.... they shoaled when first put in the tank, but now they are settled they rarely shoal. Then again, I only have four of them at the moment so that could be why!

Can you hear those Rummies, they are calling louder and louder


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## Thomas McMillan (5 Sep 2008)

They're callin' alright but I'm trying not to answer!


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## jay (5 Sep 2008)

Just get whatever takes your fancy mate. Then if and when you want to take a good shot of them shoaling around like sardines, just takes them out for a couple of days or you could even scare them(Personally don't like the sound of it) but thats what most of the pro's do.

The shoaling aspect should come a far second to the colouration in complementing your tank and giving you enjoyment.

I may be the wrong person o give advice though, after all... I have a great shoal of Rummynose


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## Garuf (5 Sep 2008)

From looking through other peoples thread's microrasborra seem to shoal really well, 20 in a 60cm tank would be a sight to be seen.


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## Thomas McMillan (5 Sep 2008)

Hmm... like Coffee Bean Rasboras? I knida like them. The other types don't seem to be that colourful apart from Galaxies.


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## a1Matt (5 Sep 2008)

Garuf said:
			
		

> From looking through other peoples thread's microrasborra seem to shoal really well, 20 in a 60cm tank would be a sight to be seen.



Nooooooooo!!! This thread is turning into a list of what is in my tank! As well as a few lampeyes I also have a few microgalaxy rasboras.  The Rasboras are uber chilled as well and rarely shoal!

They are beautiful though. From a distance they look a bit drab, but up close they have the most exquisite patterning I have ever seen. I have contemplating getting rid of all my other small fish and filling the tank with them on more than one occasion!  Not for shoaling purposes though that is for sure!

Tom I hope you take Jays advice and go for whatever you like best, in the meantime I am going to keep making comments about Rummies, cos it makes me laugh and I think you are taking it all in great spirit!


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## a1Matt (5 Sep 2008)

microgalaxy rasbora AKA celestialpearldanio 

http://celestialpearldanio.com/

Stunning, but will never shoal like a (coughs to disguise the next word) rummy in my tank!


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## Garuf (5 Sep 2008)

Wrong ones. 
I'm talking microrasborra http://dier-en-natuur.infonu.nl/artikel-foto-upload/vissen/9130-boraras-brigittae-microrasbora.jpg


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## a1Matt (5 Sep 2008)

oops. Sorry all. was posting in a hurry (again)


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## Thomas McMillan (5 Sep 2008)

Yeah, I love the red ones. They're like the ones in SteveUK's livebearer tank. 

Hah, my opinion keeps cnanging on Rummies Matt, one minute I'm all for getting them and the next I'm back to hating them. I can't see myself actually getting them though... (but don't hold your breath ).


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## GreenNeedle (5 Sep 2008)

Microrasbora erythromicron.  This is called Burmese Zebra Striped microrasbora in Maidenhead Aquatics.

Like most of the other ideas this fish doesnt shoal.  After they are settled they tend to seperate into smaller groups 3 or 4.  Then they chase each other within their little groups.

If they see humans or cameras they immediately head for the undergrowth and "go to ground". lol

takes a lot of patience to get a pic of them.

Males are very pretty.  females have less of a blue on their side closer to grey stripes.

AC


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## Ray (5 Sep 2008)

The best school I saw was Barracuda this summer - we were scuba diving and a school of maybe 1000 went right around us in a vortex - a wall of fish only 2 or 3 metres away, each a metre long.  They were so tightly packed it was incredible.  Nothing I've seen in freshwater comes close.

But getting back on topic, how about Sawbwa resplendens, also known as the Rummynose Rasbora (confused?): http://www.seriouslyfish.com/profile.php?id=991


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## Thomas McMillan (5 Sep 2008)

ooh, those rasboras look and sound really interesting. SuperColey, I've seen those from your Journal and have to say I really like them. I think Microrasboras is the way to go! I just like the fact that they are small because I like to give my fish a lot of room to swim, so a shoal of these will have plenty of room in a 72l. I know they don't shoal that much but it doesn't look like there are any species that shoal really well apart from Rummies. Ember Tetras are also still an option. 

The only thing is Microrasboras seem to be really rare around here. Maybe that's just my area? I've only seen Microrasboras once and they were really dull, just seethrough to be honest. I think they were called Mosquito Microrasboras or something.


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## GreenNeedle (5 Sep 2008)

these were almost see through as were the galaxys when I saw them in Maidenhead.  2 days in my tank with plenty of cover and they were coloured up nicely.  The males are the same colour as the pic in my journal but I have yet to get a decent actual photo.

AC


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## jay (5 Sep 2008)

Ray said:
			
		

> The best school I saw was Barracuda this summer - we were scuba diving and a school of maybe 1000 went right around us in a vortex - a wall of fish only 2 or 3 metres away, each a metre long.  They were so tightly packed it was incredible.  Nothing I've seen in freshwater comes close.
> 
> But getting back on topic, how about Sawbwa resplendens, also known as the Rummynose Rasbora (confused?): http://www.seriouslyfish.com/profile.php?id=991



I love the look of these, since seeing them in the Nature Aquarium books but never seen them in any shops.


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## GreenNeedle (6 Sep 2008)

They are cute fish.  Are these top dwellers or do they hide in the lower half like other micros seem to?

AC


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## a1Matt (8 Sep 2008)

So Tom, the million dollar question is...

did you succumb and buy any rummys this week (rummy rasboras or tetras that is!)


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## Thomas McMillan (8 Sep 2008)

Hah, no not yet. The tank isn't even set up yet and won't be for months. I just wanted to get an idea of what's out there and what I liked. 

I'm in the process of setting up my 35l to get the hang of things now. It's called 'Forest' in the journals section. It was originally going to be for Guppies but I might put some Microrasboras or something in there instead.


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## a1Matt (8 Sep 2008)

As soon as I hit submit on my last post I remembered that you hadn't even set the tank up yet   
Oh well! 

I was in Wholesale Tropicals in East London yesterday and saw about 3 different types of micro rasboras (couldn't tell you exactly what ones as the tank labels were all mixed up). They were all nice looking fish. Also saw CRS shrimp for the first time, low grade, but still gorgeous looking


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## Ark (8 Sep 2008)

harlequins all the way a group of 12 would be top notch in your tank.

they shoal brilliantly and feeding time is a frenzy...

if my camera could take better macro shots i would of posted a pic of my 15 during feeding time


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## Thomas McMillan (8 Sep 2008)

There's pretty mixed opinions on Harlequins. Some people say they don't shoal at all, and other say they shoal brilliantly. 

Either way, I will still consider them. I think they will go great with the 'feel' of the scape I have in mind, although they aren't one of my favourite fish.


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## GreenNeedle (10 Sep 2008)

If you saw my "airline horror stories" thread you will know I am still stuck in Lisbon and therefore my father took delivery of and acclimitised the 6 black corys I had arranged for the day after my scheduled return.

My sister in law who is in our house while we are away says that they all stay at the front and if you come and look at them they bang into the glass to try and scare you off. lol

The reason I post in this thread is when I asked how the 12 microrasboras are reacting (they were hiding in the Java Fern when anyone approached the tank) she says that they are all out and about and schooling nicely.  maybe a temporary phase until they realise there is no threat but still I thought worth posting!!!

I will see with my own eyes tomorrow afternoon.

AC


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## Thomas McMillan (10 Sep 2008)

Thanks for that. Where did you get your Microrasboras from? Was it that website that used to be called Tropical Fish 4 U? I can't think of the new name of it now.


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## GreenNeedle (12 Sep 2008)

it will still load up from tf4u webstie.  That was where I first saw them for Â£3.50 or something.  Then I found some in my local MA at Â£9 for 6 so I bought 12.  Huge saving.

AC


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## a1Matt (12 Sep 2008)

I got my MicroGalaxy Rasbora (Microrasbora sp.Galaxy) from MA (Dartford branch) as well.
I can't remember what I paid, but they were the healthiest and cheapest I could find in all of my LFS.


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## frothhelmet (12 Sep 2020)

Garuf said:


> Ember tetra shoal, not in the same way rummynose's do, but they do. The only thing is they need a dither fish to really bring them out as they're so timid.



This is so true. Mine have been hiding for years. Just threw an Endler in there and viola. Out and about. Love them bold endlers!


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## tiger15 (13 Sep 2020)

Rasboras in general are better schooler than tetra and barb.  My Brilliant rasboras are tight schooler, rarely break up and  always face the same direction

Tetra and barbs don’t school but shoal loosely, and frequently break up in a familiar environment.    But I have big fish in a big tank to herd them into tight shoal, most of the time.  Note that my Congo and Diamond tetra shoal together on the left end of my 125g, and tiger barb shoal along the bottom left.


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