# Some lfs dont know jack!!!!



## tko187 (26 Jun 2008)

Hi just got back home from 4 different fish shops and very dissapointed indeed, i was gonna by some planting substrate ie tropica or Ada but firstly they didnt even know what i was talking about, asked a chap in the shop first he looked round the whole shop and was looking around in the medicines, he then showed me gravel, after all this he went to checkout and asked 1 of 2 ladies there and the same they both didnt have a clue!!! I was like damn this a some crazy blahblahblahblah.......She was talking like she knew what to do but i knew everything she was telling me was wrong cos id done my homework, i was armed with info man!!! I been on here for the last 4 weeks...ha ha. She tried to tell me i could just put in a bag of eco complete mixing it in at different periods or even next to the plants. I then went to a couple more stores and just headed back home without buying anything. I have now dedided im giving my order online to the greenmachine who i  will be buying tropica or ADA, is eco complete any good guys??

I was at the ready with my c/c but nobody had the foggiest about anything....it looks to me that the workers in the shops dont know much and we are just better to do our own research, it looks to me as if fish shops are not regulated in any way by some sort of union and they just get overlooked!!


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## milla (26 Jun 2008)

*Re: lfs dont know  jack!!!!*

Sad to say but that is how things stand at most LFS's in the country, with the noticable exception of TGM - (still goot to get myself over to wrexham to see this rarest of things).
Aqua Essentials and TGM have had 99% of my custom since discovering them, plants and customer service from both are far supperior to any LFS in yorkshire.  

Hopefully this will improve over time, at least that is one of the aims of UKAPS to improve awareness of the modern practices of the planted tank hobby.

I am banned from buying fish from my local LFS because i add poisons to my tank (NPK).

I would and do choose ADA over any other substrate available at the moment.  Though ECOComplete would be my second choice.


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## Matt Holbrook-Bull (26 Jun 2008)

*Re: lfs dont know  jack!!!!*

one of the problems we face in the hobby is the lack of knowledge in fish shops, together with lack of the stock we're all after.  Some fish shop owners are approachable however to constructive criticism about their short comings.  

Occasionally, if you know the shop reasonably well, its possible to make some suggestions to them about the gaps they have in supply.  Tell them about UKaps, get them to come on the forum if theyre interested in improving their businesses.  Maybe once theyve seen just how many of us there are, theyll realise the income theyre loosing to the more 'on the ball' online retailers.

Part of our aim as a society is to raise awareness of the hobby.. that has to start with the LFS's in my opinion. Its just that most of arent even aware of the niche theyre missing out on.


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## REDSTEVEO (26 Jun 2008)

*Re: lfs dont know  jack!!!!*

I agree,

most of the large LFS in my area especially the ones in garden centres the staff have very little knowledge, experience of advanced fish and plant hobbies. I beleive that part of the problem lies in the fact that they get paid peanuts and you know what you get if you pay peanuts....Sorry if anyone on here works at an LFS in a garden centre.

If you want meat speak to the butcher....enough said TGM is my nearest butcher at 35 miles away, 70 mile round trip there and back! 

Cheers,

Steve.


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## planter (26 Jun 2008)

*Re: lfs dont know  jack!!!!*



			
				tko187 said:
			
		

> Hi just got back home from 4 different fish shops and very dissapointed indeed, i was gonna by some planting substrate ie tropica or Ada but firstly they didnt even know what i was talking about, asked a chap in the shop first he looked round the whole shop and was looking around in the medicines, he then showed me gravel, after all this he went to checkout and asked 1 of 2 ladies there and the same they both didnt have a clue!!! I was like damn this a some crazy blah.......She was talking like she knew what to do but i knew everything she was telling me was wrong cos id done my homework, i was armed with info man!!! I been on here for the last 4 weeks...ha ha. She tried to tell me i could just put in a bag of eco complete mixing it in at different periods or even next to the plants. I then went to a couple more stores and just headed back home without buying anything. I have now dedided im giving my order online to the greenmachine who i  will be buying tropica or ADA, is eco complete any good guys??
> 
> I was at the ready with my c/c but nobody had the foggiest about anything....it looks to me that the workers in the shops dont know much and we are just better to do our own research, it looks to me as if fish shops are not regulated in any way by some sort of union and they just get overlooked!!



I understand why you should find this frustrating but I cant help feeling you may have been a little bit hard on your LFS.
We participate in a huge hobby with many different aspects, Is it fair to expect the young lady you spoke to to be expert in every area, After all she may have been an expert reef keeper with unlimited knowledge of marine aquariums or perhaps she keeps and breeds Lake tanganyika cichlids or knows her yamabukis from her tancho sanke's. 
Perhaps she would have been grateful to you for explaining to her exactly what is was you wanted and what it did.
The planted aquarium hobby is not huge in this country (yet) and the products you are requesting are still regarded by the majority as specialist. Of course a fantastic LFS will have a team of staff that each have a different specific area of interest/expertise and will be able to deal with every customers request but does that mean they will be familiar with every manufactures product? they have probobly only been offered training in the products the store stocks. I would also imagine the level of expierience amongst the staff would vary from the new starter (keen hobbyist) to store managers (expierienced fishkeepers). You should find stores staffed with fishkeepers very approachable as they will be keen to hear and share  expierience and knowledge. Ive kept aquariums for 20 years and learn new things all the time, you doing your research is very comendable and such a responsible approach should be encouraged but it may be a little presumptious to expect the young lady in the shop to know every thing youve spent four weeks reading!


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## LondonDragon (26 Jun 2008)

*Re: lfs dont know  jack!!!!*

I agree with planter, can't be too hard on the local LFS must are used to just sell fish and don't know much about planted tanks. I always try to have a chat with the staff to see what they are strongest in which areas and if I don't see something in the shop that I want I usually ask why they don't stock it. Most have contracts with certain brands and don't stock other brands and some just don't stock expensive substrate if it won't sell, but usually they will order it in for you if you ask (but can be more expensive than buying it online).


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## tko187 (26 Jun 2008)

*Re: lfs dont know  jack!!!!*

Ok guys sorry for being harsh on the lady in the store, and apologies to any lfs store workers or owners who take pride in their work, i was a bit hot headed just after driving round and not finding a single shop that could help me. I just think if i go into a shop they would know what a planting substrate is, i actually went through 4 different people in the store and went to 3 other shops, i now realise that this is more of a specialist sector, and if they dont know about a product they should advise as appropriate, and not just try to sell to make a sale. In my opinion the lady at the store really didnt know how to use this eco complete and totally advised me in the wrong direction, if anynbody wants to earn my hard earned cash i would appreciate they knew what they were talking about and not just fobbing me off. 

After all this i have spoke to a fine gentleman by the name of mark in thegreenmachine who was very helpful indeed and definately knew what he was talking about. I dont grudge paying someone who is helpful and easy to approach, and this was all over a phonecall when he gave me 30mins of his very busy time.  Also i dont know about you guys but i wouldnt even mind paying someone a bit extra for their help and convenience. Thats all i expect, i am also in the sale trade and would just expect the same quality of service as you would give yourself. Sorry if i hurt any of you guys feeling i was just trying to get a point across and yeah im also new to this and will learn only this way, just wanted to share my experiences with you all. Thanks.


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## LondonDragon (27 Jun 2008)

*Re: lfs dont know  jack!!!!*

We feel your pain, most shops don't know a lot about planted tanks, I had the same problem when I started and ended buying most of my stuff online for that reason  Next time just tell them to join UKAPS and see what they are missing. You could also print some of the UKAPS leaflets and ask if you can place them in your LFS, I am going to do that with 3 I have near me


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## planter (27 Jun 2008)

*Re: lfs dont know  jack!!!!*

Like I said I understand your frustration ...  It certainly wouldnt have been difficult for the sales assistant to read through the instructions on a bag of eco complete with you and learn something whilst trying to be helpful. 

It was quite a breakthrough to find a store stocking ECo Complete!


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## George Farmer (27 Jun 2008)

*Re: lfs dont know  jack!!!!*



			
				milla said:
			
		

> I am banned from buying fish from my local LFS because i add poisons to my tank (NPK).


Are you joking?


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## Themuleous (27 Jun 2008)

*Re: lfs dont know  jack!!!!*

Eco complete is a great substrate and wont cloud the water like ADA AS or akadama, though for a new tank and if I had the money Ive get AS every time.  But for an established tank the NH3 is prohibitory.

Sam


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## milla (27 Jun 2008)

*Re: lfs dont know  jack!!!!*

George

No i ain't joking , thay are proper old school.  
They make a fortune by selling nitrate and phosphate removers as a way of controling algae and providing beter water quality for fish. 
They also sell non-aquatic plants by the truck load to unsuspecting shoppers, highlighted this to the manager and got told to mind my own.So now they get none of my business.


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## GreenNeedle (27 Jun 2008)

*Re: lfs dont know  jack!!!!*



			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> milla said:
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> 
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I've had this before.  Mainly because most LFS are not really into plants as such.  they do stock plants but not really for planted tanks.  More for the 'put a few real plants in to make the fish feel more comfortable, then replace them when they go tatty' people.  They are often still of the belief that N is poison and P causes algae etc, so when told that we add it they are horrified because it goes against what they have always known as 'fact.'

Can't be too hard on them really.  You don't go to a supermarket expecting a huge selection of every product.  More of a bit of this and a bit of that.  If you want a varied selection of fish go to an LFS.  If you want a good selection of planted gear/equipment then find one that is into that side too.  Easier said than done.

My local LFS is quite knwoledgable about planted tanks and has a few decent display tanks BUT he doesn't stock much because it doesn't sell whereas his fish and normal fishy equipment sell very well.   Can't fault him for it because there's no point losing money as business by having stuff on the shelves for months/years.

Also have to remember that the majority of pqople will always head to the P@H / Maidenheads of this world because chains have the power in that they can afford prominent positions to locate their businesses and also have the power of advertising etc.

I tend to get things from ebay/internet and get the odd thing from the chain stores.  Fish always come from my LFS or if they don't have something I head for the Maidenhead as they are much better than a chain normaly is.

Andy


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## Ejack (27 Jun 2008)

*Re: lfs dont know  jack!!!!*

One problem lies in the fact that Planted Aquariums aren't advertised enough. As the average person who wants to keep fish automatically goes for the coloured gravel, a diver with airpump and a 45Ltr tank, and 2 of each fish, with a tendancy to overstock. The wonders why his fish are dying so often and why his plants dont grow. WIth that in mind you can't blame LFS for not knowing much about plants and substrate; count yourselves lucky if they even know about the types of fish they have.

Like a lot of you suggest, its all about educating LFS and chains.


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## aaronnorth (27 Jun 2008)

*Re: lfs dont know  jack!!!!*

when i did my work experience, one of the staff was setting up a planted tank and he asked about ferts, i told him that i used TPN+ and that it contained N&P - should of see his face


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## planter (27 Jun 2008)

*Re: lfs dont know  jack!!!!*



			
				aaronnorth said:
			
		

> when i did my work experience, one of the staff was setting up a planted tank and he asked about ferts, i told him that i used TPN+ and that it contained N&P - should of see his face



Thing is you probobly made a similar face when you was first told about adding N&P  .

The LFS's have concentrated forever on selling 'FISH' and in a fish only aquarium N&P will cause algae. Therefore the best defense was always phosphate and nitrate removers. You have to remember what you have all learned through forums such as this about adding N&P or EI is 'new school' its almost revolutionary. Some leading aquarists are still willing to challenge the practices you and I may have become familiar with. You know what they say about teaching old dogs new tricks! Things will change its just a matter of time!   

Trust me I know, Im an old dog who just learnt a great new trick


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## George Farmer (27 Jun 2008)

*Re: lfs dont know  jack!!!!*



			
				Themuleous said:
			
		

> ...AS every time.  But for an established tank the NH3 is prohibitory.
> 
> Sam



Not true.  Chemical filtration, established filter and plenty of water changes...


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## George Farmer (27 Jun 2008)

*Re: lfs dont know  jack!!!!*



			
				milla said:
			
		

> George
> 
> No i ain't joking , thay are proper old school.


Interesting.  Should make a good PFK blog.  Do you mind if I use your example of being banned from buying fish because you add NP?

Thankfully my LFS are more open-minded...


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## sanj (27 Jun 2008)

*Re: lfs dont know  jack!!!!*

You know i think this fella is right to an extent. I have been to aquatics outlets with staff that are more suited to working at Tescos and is very annoying when their basics are up the creek, dont expect people to be an expert on everything BUT too many are pretty shoddy.

On the other hand there are some very good ones, i particualrly like Maidenhead Aquatics, well ive only been to three different ones. 

What do I use Petsmart for? erm, erm...buying catfood in bulk! They have a use.


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## aaronnorth (27 Jun 2008)

*Re: lfs dont know  jack!!!!*



> Thing is you probobly made a similar face when you was first told about adding N&P  .




i didnt know when i was told but otherwise i might off, but hearing it from George made it more believable


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## tko187 (28 Jun 2008)

*Re: lfs dont know  jack!!!!*

Hi guys, as you are aware im new to this game, ive also just realised ive been sold a non aquatic plant a purple and green thing which is now floating at the surface so i defo will not be going back to that store....i new all along they were at it. It just didnt feel right, its like she was trying to get one over me.

The other thing sorry for being dumb but what is NPK and what is it used for? 

The plant section in the shop i went to was a disgrace, the dirtiest tank ever and plant quality was yellow, i thought id buy cos they just had a delivery and the plants were fresh and not added to their nasty tanks.....how wrong was i when i found out it aint even an aquatic plant. The other shops i went to who also had eco complete said its "bloody fantastic stuff" when asked a few more details they didnt have much to say and were looking for a way out. Anyway i never thought i would receive such a response Thanks guys.

PS: if this eco complete stuff is good should i just go and buy it??? I trust you guys now!!! Im just not sure of the process as my tank has been cycled only a month and i would need to remove gravel + fish after adding everything back can i add fish straight away or would i need to wait, just wondering cause i dont have another tank? Thank you.


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## Lisa_Perry75 (28 Jun 2008)

*Re: lfs dont know  jack!!!!*

When I went to my LFS I worked at, they had a new delivery of plants in. Still in the box so I read the list of contents:-
Elodea
Draceana
Vallis
Etc
Etc
Etc
Eleocharis vivipara
Blyxa japonica ...
... Blyxa!!! So I said to the guy can he open the box for me and he was so stroppy. Do you know whay it looks like?? Yes, thank you very much! Managed to get a bunch for Â£1.40. I wanted a little bit after mine kinda died. The bloke said "oh I have to read a book about plants for the job (he's new) but it makes me fall asleep". I suggested PFK as a great source of info, loads of great articles about plants.

None of them read it there, I just wish they would actually care about their job and not rely ok books. Such an old media! I mean at least try PFK, but no. Don't even mention internet.

OOOH I tell you what they did say about pfk, "oh they came to check us out, I didn't see the write up. I didn't like the bloke much". This LFS is in the top 20 based in Wiltshire. Lol lol lol.

PS I don't think it gets said enough how hard George works writing all these great articles for PFK. I love them. Hear hear for George and his new protegee Tom!


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## milla (28 Jun 2008)

*Re: lfs dont know  jack!!!!*



			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> milla said:
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Blog away George.  
Could be interesting to see how the modern approaches to ferts and high tech planted tanks are perceived by PFK readers and LFS's  around the country.


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## Matt Holbrook-Bull (28 Jun 2008)

*Re: lfs dont know  jack!!!!*



			
				milla said:
			
		

> George Farmer said:
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I was in my LFS last night buying shrimp. Got talking to the girl about planted tanks, turns out shes a big fan. she showed me a little display tank that shed set up, was really nice work although alot of it was melting due to no ferts.  I was talking to her about maybe putting in some TPN+ and asked if they stocked it.. the manager (who seemed quite.. well.. arrogant) told me their other shop sold it, but not him.. we then had a small 'discussion' about the water wheel type filter she had on it and the loss of any co2 (which was being added).. but we agreed to differ!

what it showed me is that there are people in these places that want to know and are trying hard, despite some of the weirdo's that run the places!  I gave her the URL for here, hope she joins up she has huge potential!


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## PM (28 Jun 2008)

*Re: lfs dont know  jack!!!!*

I think the clue is in the title, Local *Fish* Store, I wouldn't go to a bakers and ask about pork joints


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## GreenNeedle (28 Jun 2008)

*Re: lfs dont know  jack!!!!*



			
				tko187 said:
			
		

> Hi guys, as you are aware im new to this game, ive also just realised ive been sold a non aquatic plant a purple and green thing which is now floating at the surface so i defo will not be going back to that store....i new all along they were at it. It just didnt feel right, its like she was trying to get one over me.



Can't blame the shop for this.  Most shops will get a stock list and most will not know which are true aquatics and which are short term display/marsh plants so they assume they are all for the aquarium long-term.

The Dracena you are talking about is widely sold as aquatic and is used in many tanks for short term displays like photo shoots but not by people in the know that are setting up a longer term scape.

NPK = N-Nitrate, P-Phosphate, K-Potassium.  the chemical systems.  These are the main nutrients that a plant uses along with C-Carbon(CO2 etc) and trace elements (metals mainly)

Eco Complete is as the title says.  It is a complete substrate so it doesn't need gravel/sand on top.  Still put mulm underneath it (rinse the filter media in the filter water and then empty the contents of a dirty filter into the tank whilst it is empty, water and all)  then chuck the eco complete on top to your desired level then scape away.  As easy as that.

Andy


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## Superman (28 Jun 2008)

*Re: lfs dont know  jack!!!!*

I've found that up around the Calderdale area of West Yorkshire that I have different shops for different things.

The one in Sowerby Bridge (Caldervalley Aquatics) is really good for nipping for smaller items, food, meds and they do get a wide variety of fish.
The one outside Keighley (Fish People) is really small and they're very helpful but didn't stock many items but found their fish conditions to be one of the best I've seen.
Then there's a place in Huddersfield which is better for equipment as they've got a large shop near the Galpharm.

Each one has its own area of expertise and I'm sure if I mentioned adding NPK in some of them then I'd be thrown out. I usually tell the truth but most aren't really into the "planted" scene.

Its one of the reasons why I tend to buy online more.


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## sanj (5 Jul 2008)

*Re: lfs dont know  jack!!!!*

You know its amazing, some of these places are big aquatic stores that have been around for years. They are doing somthing write then, but i have found that sometimes the market they are catering to are the new and not so clued up, not the specialist or the adanced hobbyist. 

I went to one a few months ago in Surrey near my aunty (wont name it). I asked the owner if he had PFK and he stated that 'No, Those magazines are a waste of money and filled with a load of rubbish'.  I was looking for some T5 lights in a spectrum they did not have and one of the assistants told me to use nail varnish on the tubes they sold. Hmmm.


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## GreenNeedle (5 Jul 2008)

*Re: lfs dont know  jack!!!!*



> I was looking for some T5 lights in a spectrum they did not have and one of the assistants told me to use nail varnish on the tubes they sold. Hmmm.



This goes to prove how different people's opinions actually are. lol

she was wrong to tell you to paint them with nail varnish to change their CRI. lol  What she should've said is that the CRI only matters to your own eyes and not to the plants.

Andy


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## spaldingaquatics (8 Jul 2008)

*Re: lfs dont know  jack!!!!*

I must be in a lucky area, my lfs, m/a in crowland is fantastic. I'm there at least once a week stocking up on bits and pieces, I only ever deal with one person though, I've dealt with him for the last year and by doing that you get a good rapor going. It's great to go back and not have to explain your whole tank situation each time!! He knows what fish/plants/equipment and tanks I have because he sold them to me! Also he's the reason I'm with ukaps because he's a member and recommened to me. It's true that certain staff have specific interests and knowledge, and thankfuly this staff member is an expert on aquatic plants!!!
If anyone lives in Lincolnshire/cambs then you really must see Kevan at m/a!  
Hopefully he'll read this and I might finally achieve a discount!  
Seriously though, if you're lucky enough to be served by a staff member that actualy knows what they're talking about then stick with them!


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## sanj (9 Jul 2008)

*Re: lfs dont know  jack!!!!*



> I must be in a lucky area, my lfs, m/a in crowland is fantastic.



if that haapens to be Maidenhead Aquatics, Crowland then yes I would agree. I think it is one the best.


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## spaldingaquatics (9 Jul 2008)

*Re: lfs dont know  jack!!!!*

It is sanj, shame it's inside a garden centre though. Best to go in the week, less people


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## aaronnorth (9 Jul 2008)

My local MA @ the Dukeries is good aswell. Thy say PO4 still auses algae though.


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## spaldingaquatics (9 Jul 2008)

At least they didn't think that was a postcode, there is another lfs in lincs that told me they can't deliver to that area!


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## TDI-line (9 Jul 2008)

*Re: lfs dont know  jack!!!!*



			
				spaldingaquatics said:
			
		

> I must be in a lucky area, my lfs, m/a in crowland is fantastic. I'm there at least once a week stocking up on bits and pieces, I only ever deal with one person though, I've dealt with him for the last year and by doing that you get a good rapor going. It's great to go back and not have to explain your whole tank situation each time!! He knows what fish/plants/equipment and tanks I have because he sold them to me! Also he's the reason I'm with ukaps because he's a member and recommened to me. It's true that certain staff have specific interests and knowledge, and thankfuly this staff member is an expert on aquatic plants!!!
> If anyone lives in Lincolnshire/cambs then you really must see Kevan at m/a!
> Hopefully he'll read this and I might finally achieve a discount!
> Seriously though, if you're lucky enough to be served by a staff member that actualy knows what they're talking about then stick with them!



I'm surpised we haven't bumped into each other yet at MA Crowland. I'm always in there, and Kevan really does know his fish.  , and plants.


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## spaldingaquatics (9 Jul 2008)

We probably have mate  

You'll know how busy it gets then with those garden centre shoppers popping in to have a look at the 'pretty fish'!  

What do you think to his tank at the back of the shop, just past the angel and clown loach setup? I've been trying to copy it! and managed to get a few cuttings from it to help!


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## sanj (10 Jul 2008)

Have to say though somebody at MA Crowland has mislabelled some of their Rainbowfish. I have mentioned it once, BUT they are selling the same fish in three tanks as different species and none of them are the correct species.

They are selling what is Melanotaenia Splendida australis as M.Maccullochi, and two other species.

I know rainbowfish can be difficult to label, but this is one that is reasonably easy and although the fish are different sizes in the three tanks, they are exactly the same patterning.


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## sanj (10 Jul 2008)

> What do you think to his tank at the back of the shop, just past the angel and clown loach setup? I've been trying to copy it! and managed to get a few cuttings from it to help!



The Rena aquarium (350 litre), i have the same model aquarium, although will be seeling it in the next xouple of months. That planted set up was looking pretty nice the last time i saw it. They used to have it setup as semi-terrestrial but not my thing. Still it was good to give people an idea of what they could do intead of just conventional set ups.


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## TDI-line (10 Jul 2008)

Yes that tank is coming on very well, but haven't been in for a couple of weeks, as i keep spending too much money. Did you see the Eustralis Stellata mother plants in that tank, these came from my tank not soo long ago but i wanted to minimise on background plants. But i do like HC foreground.


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## spaldingaquatics (12 Jul 2008)

TDI-line said:
			
		

> Yes that tank is coming on very well, but haven't been in for a couple of weeks, as i keep spending too much money. Did you see the Eustralis Stellata mother plants in that tank, these came from my tank not soo long ago but i wanted to minimise on background plants. But i do like HC foreground.



It's looking really good now, fast growing tank, everytime I'm in there Kevan's cutting and sorting.

Hope you got a good price for the mother plants!


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## jay (29 Jul 2008)

Have some 'OK' LFS in my area.

Small family run shop in North Wembley with Tropica plants and ferts, although they don't really have any idea what they're selling.
MA@wembley have some JBL range but don't know what they're really talking about. Guy tried selling me a pH controller after he told me he didn't know what a drop checker was or never heard of ADA.
Aquatic Design Store in London sells Tropica but the plants need to be brought on day of delivery or they get algae soon as.
Don't think tey really know much either, just don't seem interested.
Best place is MA@ St. Albans, huge selection of Tropica plants 6 pots for Â£20!! Also a lot of products from Tropica and JBL. Some knowledge but it can be a bit hit and miss. Plant guy tried telling me he grew a thick carpet of Lileopsis with minimal lighting, asked him how much..... 4x 24W T5 strips.....  

Basically just stick to online until you can maybe help educate your LFS into the new way of thinking.


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