# Cycling tank with plants in it (not sure it qualifies as a planted tank!!)



## Newbiedoobydo (1 Sep 2015)

Hi, I'm completely new to fishkeeping and find the amount of information on cycling a tank completely overwhelming, although I do understand the basic ammonia to nitrite to nitrate then water change to remove nitrates cycle generally, and that the bacteria are most concentrated in the filter. I also understand that water changes are necessary during cycling to prevent negative feedback and inhibition of bacterial growth, but am not sure how much or how often to change. If I describe my set-up, can someone please advise on the best way to start cycling it? 

The fish are two comet goldfish (donated by my neighbour who didn't want them any longer). They're currently in a storage tub (approx 50l of water) with a small filter and a few plastic and a couple of small live plants and a moss ball.  They've been in there two weeks, am doing daily 50% water changes. They seem lively and curious about their surroundings. They will stay there until the new tank is ready. Given that they lived for 5 years in a 20l tank of untreated tap water with only sporadic filtration, anything would be an improvement, I guess! They must be as tough as old boots. Although stunted .

Yesterday I set up their new tank. It measures 100cmx40cmx40cm and I reckon there's about 150l of water in there, treated with the recommended amount of seachem prime. The substrate is a thin layer of moler clay (bonsai soil) which I rinsed manically and left to soak for a couple of days in tap water before rinsing in dechlorinated water and adding to the tank. I have added the following plants: two Vallisneria, half-a-dozen cryptocoryne walkerii, some bacopa monnieri, a couple of java ferns - all these are very small and need to grow on. There is also a large echinodorus rose. I dosed with King British Aquarium liquid plant food. I will be using one 30W fluorescent tube as lighting and have no CO2 set-up as I can't afford to spend any more money!! I poured in a litre of old tank water and threw in a plastic plant that has been in the storage tub with them. There are also two tiny pieces of bogwood that were soaked for several days in old tank water.

I live in Manchester so soft water, pH from the tap is around 7.2 and very low nitrates according to the (much scorned on this forum) API freshwater testing kit. Water temp in tank will probably reach about 20C.

The filters are two Marina S20 externals and I intend to swap the supplied carbon filters for ceramic noodles and sponge. I bought the tank etc second-hand (it had never been used) so it came with a heater. Could I use that whilst the tank is cycling and then remove and let the water cool at the end?

Sorry for all the questions. I know the fish would probably survive if I just popped them straight in but they've had such a tough life I don't want to subject them to any more stress. Plus the plants need some time to grow or the fish will devastate them!

Any advice welcome! Thank you for taking the time to read my long post.

(PS Once I get going with the goldies, I want to get a betta splendens and repeat the whole process, but this time in a smaller more densely planted tank with a complete or dirt substrate...)


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## Martin in Holland (2 Sep 2015)

As you are doing a fishless cycle  you don't need to worry to much about your WC....do 3 times 50% WC the first week...2 times 50% the second and third week...1 times 50% per week after that. After about 3 - 4 weeks your fish should be ok to go in.
Bare in mind that goldies are diggers, maybe use some stones around your plants to prevent your fish from digging them out all the time.


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## Newbiedoobydo (2 Sep 2015)

Thank you, Martin in China. I stuck a stocking with a handful of goldfish flakes in it into the tank last night and put the heater in. I added some gunk to the filter pads from the filter that is in the fishes' temporary home. This morning I woke up to a cloudy tank and the smell is all over the house, to the extent that I've had to open the windows! I've switched the heater off (temp was 25-26C) and turned the filter flow up. Is the cloudiness a bacterial bloom, and if so, does in normally happen so quickly? Test kit shows there is some ammonia in the tank. I am going to buy some household ammonia today if I can find any, so I can dose more accurately.

I had half and idea to use (frozen, minced) raw tripe in a stocking to kick start the cycle. Given how smelly the fish flakes are, I'm very glad I gave the tripe a miss!!


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## foxfish (2 Sep 2015)

Just have a little patience, you don't need to add anything, just let your filter do the work.
Some folk recommend adding ammonia but to me that is just crazy!!!
Do exactly as Martin says and you fish will thank you in a few weeks.


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## dw1305 (2 Sep 2015)

Hi all, 





foxfish said:


> ust let your filter do the work. Some folk recommend adding ammonia but to me that is just crazy!!! Do exactly as Martin says and you fish will thank you in a few weeks.


"Foxfish" and Martin are right, you can ignore what they tell you about cycling on other forums, it is based upon a series of half-truths and misconceptions.





Newbiedoobydo said:


> I stuck a stocking with a handful of goldfish flakes in it into the tank last night and put the heater in. I added some gunk to the filter pads from the filter that is in the fishes' temporary home. This morning I woke up to a cloudy tank and the smell is all over the house, to the extent that I've had to open the windows! I've switched the heater off (temp was 25-26C) and turned the filter flow up. Is the cloudiness a bacterial bloom, and if so, does in normally happen so quickly? Test kit shows there is some ammonia in the tank. I am going to buy some household ammonia today if I can find any, so I can dose more accurately. I had half and idea to use (frozen, minced) raw tripe in a stocking to kick start the cycle. Given how smelly the fish flakes are, I'm very glad I gave the tripe a miss!!


You will have some ammonia, in fact as you've found you don't need a test kit, you can smell it. 

You don't need to add any ammonia, or source of ammonia (tripe etc.), this is because the key metric in biological filtration is oxygen, and basically you just need to have enough oxygen so that the available dissolved oxygen exceeds the biochemical oxygen demand (BOD) at all times, and then your fish will be fine. 

Plants and time are the answer to "cycling", there is more in this thread <"Setting up ....."> and links. 

I can send you some plants that will act as both surfaces for bacterial colonisation and should be reasonably Goldfish proof. The ones I would recommend are _Ceratophyllum _and _Pistia, _I can send you a large starter pack of both, if you cover the cost of postage and packing. 

PM me if you want to go down that route.

cheers Darrel


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## BigTom (2 Sep 2015)

In this situation I'd simply move the old filter and fish straight across to the new tank. Same bioload and filtration capacity but a much larger volume of water. Although I understand your concern about getting the plants established. Otherwise as the others have said, get the plants established, get a load of floaters in and once they're happily growing do the above. And plenty of water changes on the tub in the mean time.


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## alto (2 Sep 2015)

Newbiedoobydo said:


> This morning I woke up to a cloudy tank and the smell is all over the house, to the extent that I've had to open the windows!





Just drain the tank, refill, run filter for a bit, check odor, drain again & refill if still manky  

If you want to add something to "boost" the cycle, just add a pinch of fish flakes every other day - this will more than suffice.
You can also "cycle" a tank just by running the aquarium for some weeks, no intervention needed ... suitable bacteria will be established by 6-10 weeks (there are some actual (science lab) studies on this, that showed the various bacteria isolated over time etc). What this does NOT do is provide a considerable N-cycle bacteria population, rather numbers are quite low & population doubling time on these bacteria is 72 hours (given optimum conditions), so you still need to add fish slowly over time ... in your case, you could add both goldfish in & just do 25% daily water changes for a few days, then every other day, then weekly (taking about 2 weeks to get to this stage).
Don't add straight ammonia without a lot of measuring/calculating - too high ammonia & then nitrite (& even nitrate) levels have inhibitory effects on the bacteria you're trying to encourage; it is also very important to use ammonia that has no other additives (most household products contain additional compounds - at least in North America). 

I'd continue with your earlier plan of getting plants established before adding in the goldfish, at this stage, just do daily water changes until tank smells nice again.

Adding in the heater will speed up the filter process & possibly plant growth (I don't recall which plants, but check the tags to be sure they're suitable for your planned gold fish temperature) but I'd only elevate it a couple degrees.


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## Newbiedoobydo (2 Sep 2015)

OK - I will remove the stocking of fish food (it's not a full stocking!) for a start and see what's what in the morning. I have just bought another tank from ebay (naughty I know, but it's a real bargain) so will pop the goldies in there with all the substrate and filter from the storage tub they're in at the moment. I'll be happy to let the big tank take its time then. The storage tub is bowing alarmingly under the weight of the water in it, and I'm getting increasingly concerned that it's going to split.

Once the big tank is cycled, the goldies can go in there and I can plant this newer tank up ready for a betta fish. It will already be cycled, won't it, if the goldies have been in it for a few weeks? (I'd plant it up quickly and put the filter in a bucket of old tank water so it wouldn't dry out).

Is fishkeeping and planted tank addiction a recognised condition in the diagnostic manuals?


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## foxfish (2 Sep 2015)

Is fishkeeping and planted tank addiction a recognised condition in the diagnostic manuals? [/QUOTE]
You might want another tank to dry start as well


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## Newbiedoobydo (2 Sep 2015)

foxfish said:


> Is fishkeeping and planted tank addiction a recognised condition in the diagnostic manuals?


You might want another tank to dry start as well [/QUOTE]

Stoppit! I have two heated propagators for my 'land plants' so the DSM would definitely be a possibility but I don't need any more encouragement! Plus my parents are already worried about my eccentricities - if they come to visit and the house is stuffed with tanks they'll think I've lost my marbles for certain!


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## Newbiedoobydo (13 Sep 2015)

An update on the big tank - I added more bonsai clay as the darned plants kept floating to the surface grrr. They seem to be anchored in place now. Water is crystal clear. I have ordered some Seachem Flourish Excel, will turn the temp up a degree or two and switch the light on for 6-7 hours a day (currently only lit for 5 hours) to try and speed up te growth a little. But everything looks healthy.

This is a very good hobby for honing one's patience!!

I now have 3 (ahem!) other tanks waiting to be set up. Remembered I have pebbles in the yard from an old pebble pond I had years ago. Plus a neighbour of mine is a tree surgeon with a woodburning stove so am going to see if he has any seasoned oak/cherry/apple wood I can scrounge... I am looking forward to fiddling with the tanks and plants over the autumn/winter as I tend to get very depressed at the lack of gardening opportunities 'on the land' as it were. I am already mesmerised by the movement of the plants from the filter flow and that's before the fish have even got into the tank.

PS The tanks were picked up for a song on ebay. Sadly I can't afford new! I think I have a full-blown case of MTS already...


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## leap (13 Sep 2015)

Tanks sound good.  Are you still keen on a Betta? - if so I can only say may the gods help you!  
With three tanks your MTS is deffo in swing. But if you get a Betta it will go into total overdrive!   If I could I would line my entire living room in Betta tanks - throw out the telly and use the space for a lovely big tank - maybe keep a female betta harem or maybe a giant betta !
My family live in fear as it is!

I love being able to fiddle around with my tanks when it's too cold to potter around gardening outside.
Keep us posted it's lovely to hear your updates.


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## Newbiedoobydo (13 Sep 2015)

Yes leap I am still interested in bettas! And, erm, well, I do have a telly which my sister gave me, but no licence, so I never watch it. It's taking up space. I would be lying if I said it hadn't crossed my mind to sell it and put a fish tank there instead...


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## leap (13 Sep 2015)

Thing with Betta's is unless one does a large female set up - the lads need to be kept singly....you already know this though!   Cycle a tank really well beforehand - it is well worth giving a betta tank a little more cycling time as their fins are delicate, they really react badly to even minor changes that hardier fish would shrug off. I find 5-6 weeks is better than the usual 3-4 weeks.
They are very addictive....full of character and highly responsive to humans...you've been warned....I predict withing a few weeks of your getting one the telly will go!


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