# Pearl Gourami - Is this white area anything to be concerned about?



## Andrew Butler (17 Sep 2016)

Unsure if this white area on top of one of my pearl gourami is anything to be concerned about? Can't quite make out if he has knocked it or it is an infection of some kind or similar. Any ideas and suggestions welcome - the links are of pitcures

https://goo.gl/photos/i3dgXEg9ftn5oE6V6
https://goo.gl/photos/6rB1wnxqKEWcPwKE6


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## Greenfinger2 (17 Sep 2016)

Hi Andrew, Could be cotton mouth.Not sure Others will know more 

http://www.fishdeals.com/fish_diseases/cotton_mouth/


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## Alex J (18 Sep 2016)

Definitely an infection, Difficult to say from the pictures but it may not be a fungal infection but rather bacterial, both are similar in appearance. The bacteria .Flexibacter columnaris is commonly present in  aquariums and on the skin of healthy fish, only causing issue when water conditions are sub optimal , and fish become stressed, lowering their immune system, allowing the bacteria to take hold.Also can take hold if a fish suffers some kind of open wound. Of course it could be a fungal infection, Saprolegnia or Achyla. API pimafix treats both fungal and bacterial infections.


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## Andrew Butler (18 Sep 2016)

Thanks both for your input, although my water parameters may not be perfect especialy the PH which has been around 6.5 they have been pretty consistent since first fish added over a month ago and have kept water changes regular. https://goo.gl/photos/LbXwdAX3XxcnEvWNA (picture is of JBL proscan results, I know it's not the most reliable testing!) I can't think what would be causing stress apart from him keep failing to build a good bubble nest for the female he has been mating with. I do seem to have a problem with minute white worms which have started to reappear every day https://goo.gl/photos/DsTiBPvQ8HHC31Hg8 which I will post a question about


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## alto (18 Sep 2016)

You might take a look at this thread
- these sorts of lesions are not that uncommon in various gourami species, a good first step is to increase water changes - you don't mention what your schedule is (or amount of water changed) but given the wee white worms (which generally occur with overfeeding/lack of cleanup of the excess food) I'm sceptical of the zero nitrate reading on that proscan strip...
Also pay more attention to your substrate vacuuming during water changes

It's possible this began as a surface scrape which then became infected - fish rarely have one "disease", instead secondary infections almost always present

Some tank details & care information might help


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## Andrew Butler (18 Sep 2016)

I had been making a minimum of 2no 30% per week minimum but I was on holiday last week so it was a week between changes. I understand your scepticism about the nitrates but I have checked the parameters regularly and nitrates have read 0 every time except once where they were 18 mg/l and that was when I returned from holiday before doing a water change. How would you suggest treating the problem?
What would you suggest the white worms are and your view on treating them (I have reduced feeding)

I Can't find the link for suggested information to post but the tank is 60l, test results are at the above link and have been pretty consistent - Any guidance welcome


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## alto (18 Sep 2016)

strange link works for me 

try
http://www.fishkeeping.co.uk/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=36395


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## Andrew Butler (18 Sep 2016)

alto said:


> strange link works for me
> 
> try
> http://www.fishkeeping.co.uk/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=36395



I had meant on this site there is a blank form suggesting what info to provide about your aquarium when you post. I didn't know whether the above link


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## alto (18 Sep 2016)

Try googling planaria - compare images to your special friends 

What sort of substrate do you have in tank? how do you do your water changes?  vacuum substrate?



Andrew Butler said:


> I had meant on this site there is a blank form suggesting what info to provide about your aquarium when you post.


I've no idea


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## Andrew Butler (18 Sep 2016)

Substrate is Colombo Florabase, W/C are done using a syphon gravel vac and I don't really vacuum the substrate as it sucks so much down the pipe - opinion?

I had a google about the little critters and my research pointed towards planaria being quite a generalised term and them probably being a flat worm of some kind from overfeeding - food has been cut back so I guess it might be a see how it goes and have to rethink things about vacuuming the substrate


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## Andrew Butler (22 Sep 2016)

Here's a couple of pics showing where it has got a little worse, I have been adding both melafix and pimafix the past 3 days now. Any clues?
https://goo.gl/photos/kUhEGvH3ChfYVy1T7
https://goo.gl/photos/TDPAGv5ivT3kut7w9


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## alto (22 Sep 2016)

Not to be completely annoying  but why not eSHa 2000 as per the link included above - the Pearl gourami looks to have a markedly similar lesion & seems to have responded favorably to the treatment

You might also try Seachem Kanaplex (if available)
If fish is eating, try feeding medicated food (I believe Seachem provides instruction on their website, note that the combined use of Focus does increase binding of the medication to food)



Andrew Butler said:


> melafix and pimafix



pretty much expresses my opinion of these 2 "medications" - I've yet to see any (research) evidence that these compounds affect actual fish pathogens - as opposed to some water column effects
ie the water column pathogens that were "treated" by M & P are not observed to be infectious agents in ornamental fish 
There are numerous reports of fish reacting adversely (even fatalities) in response to M & P, especially when used in combination as per the manufacturer - hopefully there is finally a _caution_ on the label 





Andrew Butler said:


> I don't really vacuum the substrate as it sucks so much down the pipe - opinion?


 missed this
Not sure about the Colombo, but Tropica aquarium soil can be "lifted" into the syphon tube, allowed to swirl about, then clamp off the suction to drop the "cleaned" substrate back to earth 
If this doesn't work with Colombo, just carefully do a surface vacuum to remove debris.
Also rinse filter media (use conditioned tap water), especially any sponge, replace any filter floss - this along with daily water changes (even just 25%) is often as effective as many aquarium medications 



Andrew Butler said:


> overfeeding


tends to lead to increased organic load in the water column, which means more bacteria etc,
As above, increased water changes 
It generally takes a week or 2 of frequent water changes


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## Andrew Butler (22 Sep 2016)

Cheers for the lengthy response Alto;
I assure you I didn't just completely ignore you! - I had a look over the link among others and aside from Esha 2000 not being available at my local M&P were and recommended by them and other links with similar looking problems.
The gourami is still eating well unlike the link BUT that doesn't mean it's not to come.
I will get some Esha  2000 ordered and if there is no improvement by the time it arrives then I will look at changing treatment routes - I figure a big water change would be in order as I change over
I have been doing 30% w/c but unsure quite how much I can safely change and how often


alto said:


> Also rinse filter media (use conditioned tap water), especially any sponge, replace any filter floss


Am I correct in thinking when everything is healthy all of this should be rinsed in tank water and not tap water?


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## alto (22 Sep 2016)

You can safely (gently!) rinse all filter media in treated tap water or tank water, I use tap as it's more convenient & there really isn't much difference between my tap & tank (I use the Python System for water changes) .... when tap & tank are similar parameters large water changes are fine BUT you need to get the water conditioner right when doing anything over 25-30% (especially if there's any chance of chloramines in tap water, check with your water supplier to see how they "emergency" dose for elevated coliforms etc)

Don't wait for the tank to be healthy though, give the filter a good rinse to remove the waste from overfeeding; also filters just accumulate debris so monthly check is often recommended



Andrew Butler said:


> I assure you I didn't just completely ignore you!






Andrew Butler said:


> M&P were and recommended by them and other links


yeah, marketing by the manufacturer is excellent 
Most shops never do any research in Ornamental Fish Diseases & rely upon suppliers for information

These sorts of lesions can arise from various triggers, mostly they clear as the fish's immune system gets going, treatments are just a bit of help, clean water is often the most significant factor.
Gourami's in general seem more susceptible to these sorts of infections, perhaps from inbreeding or stressors we don't recognize (Pearls aren't intensely bred for color lines, but still seem to have some issues) - iridoviruses have been identified in various gourami species, perhaps they are just more susceptible or ???

Monitor fish closely, if infection seems to worsen, you might do well to isolate fish to a hospital tank (to minimize exposure for tankmates) - a 40litre tank with inbuilt filter etc is worth collecting on sale/used for  a quarantine/treatment tank.   

If Metronidazole is available, a course of medicated food may be beneficial (more palatable than Kanaplex soaked food, & maybe more available???)


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## Andrew Butler (23 Sep 2016)

alto said:


> Don't wait for the tank to be healthy though, give the filter a good rinse to remove the waste from overfeeding


I have been doing this as a matter of course anyway, may just increase water changes for now



alto said:


> f infection seems to worsen, you might do well to isolate fish to a hospital tank


I have this in mind



alto said:


> Most shops never do any research in Ornamental Fish Diseases & rely upon suppliers for information


SALES = PROFIT!


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## Lindy (23 Sep 2016)

Melafix and pimafix should not be used in fish with a labyrinth organ as the oil these treatments have can coat the organ affecting it's function. Water life myxazin is a better option.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


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## alto (24 Sep 2016)

I think Melafix & Pimafix should remain as toothpaste additives 

(& other topical creams  )


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## Andrew Butler (30 Sep 2016)

I added the esha 200 - 1st dose last Sunday 25th and the further 2 doses Monday and Tuesday. I haven't noticed any improvement and wondering whether I should have by now / when to / what I should do next.
Any input would be appreciated again.

P.S I get the message to avoid Melafix and Pimafix in the future!


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## sciencefiction (30 Sep 2016)

alto said:


> There are numerous reports of fish reacting adversely (even fatalities) in response to M & P, especially when used in combination as per the manufacturer - hopefully there is finally a _caution_ on the label



I once isolated a couple of sickly corys in a tank for treatment and to do so I put them in a tank from which I had just moved away a big bunch of happy forktail rainbows. I put a dose of melafix. I woke up the day after to find their dead bodies. I never used the stuff since. The forktail rainbows and all other corys that lived in the tank from which I took the two corys survived.

When it comes to fish treatment, 90% of the time the meds we buy don't work because the advertisement of the meds is greater than the result. In most cases they either kill or weaken the fish, kill the biomedia, or are simply useless.



Andrew Butler said:


> The gourami is still eating well unlike the link BUT that doesn't mean it's not to come



To be honest, the fact that its eating is a very good sign. Sick fish, on death bed, don't eat.  If its flexibacter columnaris, it can spread in a few days depending on the strain of bacteria. What the fish have could be something else related to the species and/or water conditions.  Columnaris spreads to all fish regardless of species and if untreated , will wipe the tank out.  Depending on the time frame, maybe it is not what your fish have, although it looks like it.

However, as alto suggested, I'd get some seachem kanaplex. If its columnaris it should work. You can get it from ebay. They are maybe other meds out there too that are useful but its hard to recommend anything considering its a guess game when it comes to diseases. At least I know that for an antibiotic kanaplex is quite safe to put with any fish or inverts.



Andrew Butler said:


> I have been doing 30% w/c but unsure quite how much I can safely change and how often



50% is safe to do daily. The more often one does water changes, the bigger they can go simply because tank and tap/input water are pretty much the same in this case.
 You've been already doing regular water changes. Up it up for a week or two to 50% every second day if you have the chance. It is the fish immune system you need to boost. Because that's what fights the disease. Try not to disturb the fish too much when doing water changes. Just drain, de-chlorinate, refill.


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## Andrew Butler (1 Oct 2016)

I understand I'm playing a bit of a guessing game!

I have been having a bit more of a read into things and unsure if I have overlooked something with regards to using the esha 2000 -
As I understood it you have to remove carbon from the filtration but I am now unsure if I made a big error and should have removed the ceramic bio rings? I have an internal filter with standard filter wool and half a handful of ceramic bio rings.
I'm sure there is a distinct difference between biological and chemical filtration but reading elsewhere it suggests removing bio balls?!?!
link to esha 2000 where you can see there info - http://www.eshalabs.eu/europe/products/esha-2000supregsup.html

Regardless to the above I am going to get a water change done today and have another look into the Seachem Kanaplex - I'm just very weary about buying this kind of stuff from ebay.


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## alto (1 Oct 2016)

I'll admit to not opening the esha pdf, but it would be very unusual to remove biomedia during treatment, whereas it's standard to recommend removal of carbon or purigen or other "binding" type media

Seachem does have expiry date & lot # on their product so you can easily confirm product status with Seachem 

You might also check with local vets to see what might be available there (also local chemists that stock livestock supplies)

Depending on fish, it may be possible to net fish (look for a brine shrimp net as the fabric is soft & "dense" & will help protect fish skin/scales from handling damage), immobilize in the net, lightly coat lesion with a topical antibiotic cream such as Debride (you can likely substitute a Neosporin type cream)
This article is koi focused but worth reading
Note that the fish capture/hold/treatment process should be calm & quick so as to limit stress to fish (your local vet might be able to supply a fish anaesthetic but this needs to be used with care  - research thoroughly before attempting): if you don't observe daily progress over the first few days, discontinue.

You can also remove fish to an alternate container for strong short term "bath" treatments (it's recommended to add aeration even for short term baths)

In case you've not done the math yet, its usually much cheaper to just euthanize & buy a replacement fish 
(I tend to give up only after the fish in question has given up, but it's not the most practical choice )


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## Andrew Butler (1 Oct 2016)

alto said:


> In case you've not done the math yet, its usually much cheaper to just euthanize & buy a replacement fish


Haha, I'd done that long time ago but sometimes in a small startup aquarium it's a good time to learn before going bigger places.

All the instructions with the esha were in German so I relied on the pdf info, I'm sure bio and chemical are different but after reading elsewhere was unsure if it was lost in translation.

I did also read elsewhere about repeating the dose cycle of the esha 2000 but not on  their site 

All of the seachem on eBay was from  the states.

Think a couple of water changes and observation maybe in order and guess the only real worry is if this is contagious


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## alto (1 Oct 2016)

FWIW I doubt it's Columnaris - it's not really a common infection in home tanks, except through introduction of infected fish, & it would be unlikely to be "contained" to a single fish after all this time

I'd complete the first esha 2000 Tx, do large daily water changes for 3 days, then repeat Tx

You might write out exactly what protocol you're following


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## Andrew Butler (1 Oct 2016)

alto said:


> FWIW I doubt it's Columnaris - it's not really a common infection in home tanks, except through introduction of infected fish, & it would be unlikely to be "contained" to a single fish after all this time
> 
> I'd complete the first esha 2000 Tx, do large daily water changes for 3 days, then repeat Tx
> 
> You might write out exactly what protocol you're following



I have already carried out the first esha 2000 following their dosing recommendations for 50l:
Day 1 - 13 drops
Day 2 - 6 drops
Day 3 - 6 drops

Prior to that I carried out several water changes notably 2no 50% one on day 1 and the other the day before.

What else would you like to know - forgive my idiocy please.


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## alto (1 Oct 2016)

I don't see any idiocy here 


This is from PFK forum back in 2008 (so may have been changed somewhat since - might be worth emailing the manufacturer & asking (which is what the original poster did   - if you do email, include a photo of the sick fish))


> Originally Posted by *Susie*
> For anyone interested the ingredients of Esha 2000:
> 
> 6.3 mg ethacridine lactate (Rivanol)
> ...



I've now opened the pdf file -
eSHa mentions double dosing for persistent or severe infections (& other situations), so I'd give this a try

"normal" dosing scheme"
60 litre
Day 1 15 drops
Day 2  8 drops
Day 3  8 drops
Then with stubborn infections, continue the 8 drop dosing for several days

Slightly confusing, they also suggest double dose if soft water with GH<4, so then for the 60l tank, Day 1 dose 30 drops, then 16 daily for a few days

Based upon this you'd likely be safe to dose additional eSHa 2000 & continue treating
I do prefer to perform large water changes & observe fish in a "medication-free" environment before repeating any treatments
Depending on the medication, I'll even add carbon back in for at least overnight - once water changes have been performed (makes for more efficient removal)

BUT
please list all livestock here first

If you've tank photos, those are always helpful
Also just list setup details



> *Tropical Bay *(I've borrowed this from Luis Cardosa's journal)
> *
> Setup Date:* 16-09-2014
> *TAnk:* 120x50x50 extra clear glass
> ...



other useful factors
*Temperature
Water change schedule
Livestock
Water Chemistry* such as pH, GH, KH etc if you happen to know them, it's always good to have some idea of what your local tap water parameters are (it's usually fairly easy to find water reports for your area)
Basically the more detail you provide, the better 

The sorts of lesions shown in the photo are often persisting - a "scrape" will reveal quite a long list of pathogens (many are there as part of the "normal flora" of the fish, in a healthy fish they are present in very small numbers, in an ill fish, the numbers rapidly increase) - fish will also usually continue to act fairly normal while the lesion persists.


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## Andrew Butler (2 Oct 2016)

The short response to this is he decided to jump out of the tank and commit suicide last night. 

Thank you everyone for your input


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## alto (3 Oct 2016)

sorry to hear that


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