# Any advice welcome



## uk bulldog (18 Nov 2012)

Hi all as being new to planted tanks & takeing on a new project of a 500litre display tank i was wondering what would be the best type of substrate to use? I will be keeping mainly angels as that is what i breed & my tank will have a 3D amazon background,i also want to use black quartz gravel.What are your thoughts? I have seen john innes N#3 under the black quartz but am unsure as to wether i will need this aswell as the gravel.

Paul


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## foxfish (18 Nov 2012)

Hi Paul, you dont mention if you are going to be using injected C02?


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## uk bulldog (18 Nov 2012)

Hi Foxfish sorry i should have mentioned that yes i do intend on useing Co2


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## ceg4048 (19 Nov 2012)

Hello,
        I strongly suggest that you avoid 3D backgrounds for now, as I suspect they have a negative impact on nutrient and CO2 distribution. 

You can use any gravel you want as long as you dose the water column. Organic sediments such as compost can be used as they are inexpensive, however, if you are consistently uprooting and replanting then things tend to get messy. Most people use simple clay substrates, some of which are fortified with nutrients (and which are expensive) and others which are inert (and cheap). Have a look at the thread viewtopic.php?f=17&t=13801

Cheers,


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## uk bulldog (19 Nov 2012)

Hi ceg4048 thanks for the reply & the link to the other thread as it as given me more of an insight as to which substrate to use,to which i feel the ADA will be the way to go as it also has peat which will be good for my angels & the Ph levels aswell as the plants,but as far as the 3D background goes this is already a feature in my tank so was wondering why you suspect they have a negative impact on nutrient & Co2 distribution as it would be a shame to have to remove it,& surely there must be a way around any problems that may be caused with this issue.

Paul


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## ceg4048 (19 Nov 2012)

Hello,
        The peat that is part of the Aquasoil construct will not have any noticeable impact. The peat is there in small amount in order to feed the bacteria. If you plan on using CO2 you will find that the pH will fall a tremendous amount because CO2 mixed with water produces an acid called carbonic acid. Furthermore your angels will not care on bit about the pH and you are advised to abandon any policy which attempts to manipulate the tanks pH. There are too many disparate natural forces acting in the tank for you to control the pH without doing damage. Therefore let the pH fall where it may and concentrate more on keeping the tank clean, distributing the flow properly and in feeding the plants and maintaining your aquascape. Fish actually don't have any health concerns as a result of pH, so this is good news because it's one less thing to worry about.

Cheers,


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## uk bulldog (19 Nov 2012)

Hi ceg4048 can you please elaborate on the problems i may have by haveing a 3d background.

Paul


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## ceg4048 (19 Nov 2012)

Hi,
    Well the problems in large tanks have to do with the distribution of flow. The 3D backgrounds evidently have a negative impact on the movement of water across the tank. In a CO2 injected tank flow and distribution patterns of water is critical, especially in those tanks which are highly lit. Have a look at the thread viewtopic.php?f=19&t=23201

Cheers,


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## foxfish (19 Nov 2012)

Well what we are trying to achieve is a lovely smooth circular flow withing the tank to assist in the C02 & fertilisers feeding all our plants on an equal level so.... We have found that not only the hardscape in the tank effect flow but also the back pane of glass has an effect also!
Most folk who are just setting out on the planted tank scene are advised to use a full length spray bar fitted along the back on the tank & just below the water level. This set up will send a flow across the surface towards the front of the tank down the front wall, along the bottom, up the back wall & back across the top & so on...
We would advise a flat clean rear glass, however if you are really keen to keep the 3d effect it might be possible just not so easy!


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## uk bulldog (19 Nov 2012)

Thanks for the replys guys i now understand what you are saying & it all makes a lot of sence although i had already thought about a full lengh spraybar as i had my background made just short enough so i could encorporate this but you have now given me food for thought on how i can solve this problem with the flow so as to still acheve the desired flow required.

Paul


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## REDSTEVEO (19 Nov 2012)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Hello,
> Therefore let the pH fall where it may and concentrate more on keeping the tank clean, distributing the flow properly and in feeding the plants and maintaining your aquascape. *Fish actually don't have any health concerns as a result of pH, so this is good news because it's one less thing to worry about.*
> 
> Cheers,



Hi Clive, I am not going to hijack the guys thread here, but would be very grateful if you could expand on the text highlighted in bold above. I have heard so many stories and people talking about a PH crash killing or being harmful to their fish. The PH Crash being due to the water's lack of buffering capacity and so on. Is this not true then?

Cheers,

Steve


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## Mick.Dk (19 Nov 2012)

Hi Paul
I breed Angels too - and there's absolutely no problems with pH. Might be if wild collected, but I've bred wild collected Peruvian Altum (and yes, I know they're not Altum!) without problems.
Mick.


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## ceg4048 (19 Nov 2012)

Hi Steve,
               As Mick confirms the situation in this hobby with pH is very similar to the situation with nitrate. People have a problem in their tank which affects the pH at the same time, i.e, some toxic agent which is killing their fish and so they blame the pH instead of looking deeper into the cause and finding the agent responsible for simultaneously killing the fish and for affecting the pH.

Think about what happens for example if a moderate sized fish dies and goes unnoticed in the tank. The body decays and pollutes the tank. The ammonia in the tank raises the alkalinity but it also poisons the other fish in the tank. So the hobbyists measures the pH and discovers that it is high...and concludes that high pH kills the fish.

The reverse reaction happens more often, especially in CO2 injected tanks. If you overdose your CO2 application it drives the pH low due to the carbonic acid right? If the alkalinity of the water is low (i.e, low KH) then the acidity of the water becomes extreme. The fish die. What killed the fish, low pH? No, they died of CO2 poisoning which causes the blood to acidify. The pH of the water is irrelevant at that point.

So when we have an unusual pH reading and when we suspect a problem we need to troubleshoot the cause of the unusual pH, because that will be the same cause that is causing the toxicity. Fish have a very wide tolerance for the variations in natural pH, but the pH must be considered within the context of the system. South American fish especially live in highly acidic waters which are often stained by high concentrations of tannic acids, so it's very unlikely that a low pH can kill these fish. However, many people dump highly toxic acids into the tank trying to control the pH, strong acids such as Phosphoric or Sulfuric acids which are strong acids and which burn the gills and mucous membranes resulting in asphyxiation.  These strong acids also drive the pH low but they are toxic whereas weak, non-toxic acids such as tannic or carbonic acids are weak acids but which drive the pH just as low without doing any damage.

Cheers,


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## uk bulldog (19 Nov 2012)

Hi Steve i have had a Ph crash in the past that has led to fish dyeing but that was due to me useing RO water to lower the Kh & through not monitoring the amount of RO  used my Ph crashed well below what my fish would toloerate & a very unstable Ph level at that,that inturn led to an expensive mistake i will not make again.I never use chemicals to adjust Ph as  fish as a rule are quite tolerant to reasonably high Ph but not to low.

Mike its was good to hear that you have had good results with breeding your angels while useing Co2 as that is quite reashoreing, even though i dont intend to breed in this tank  i have considered keeping wild caught altums in it due to the height being 30 inch & trying to make it am amazonion bio-tope as long as i can acheive the results i want & im now sure that with the great help of some of the knowlegable members here i will get there in the end.
P.S sorry about my spelling as its not my strong point.

Paul


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## daza.141 (19 Nov 2012)

Hi uk bulldog, i have been stuck in your position before and had trial and errors the best way bud is not the cheap quick option save a little money and buy yourself some ADA there is no point taking short cuts bud as it will just come back and haunt you in the future if your going to do a job then like they say unfortunately "do it properly" the best way i suggest is the ADA by far. 

Also what plants are you planning on putting in ? 
How deep is your tank (height) ? 
And are you planning on having any of the plants growing up out of the water ? 

Daza.


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## REDSTEVEO (19 Nov 2012)

Clive,

Thanks for that explanation. Yet another LFS myth put to bed.

Does this now mean that I can adjust the PH setting on my PH sensor to say 6.30 and get more CO2 into the water without doing any damage? I only ask this because the setting of 6.50 does not seem to have much affect on the colour of the drop checker, lately it is still dark green most of the time and I know you are a big fan of bright yellow before lights on and darker green by the end of the day.

Cheers,

Steve


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## REDSTEVEO (19 Nov 2012)

Hi UK Bulldog I tend to agree mostly with what daza 141 says here. The cheaper quick fix routes are not the best, although that said there are plenty of options that are not quite as expensive as the ADA route. Tetra, Dennerle to name a few have a pretty good mineral substrate to put under whatever gravel substrate you decide to go for. I have used plain old quartz gravel in the past with the under gravel fertiliser.

Have a look at this little link if you find time.

http://home.infinet.net/teban/jamie.htm

Cheers,

Steve

ps don't worry about your mishspelling noe ones going to take the pyth here  

p.s I just remembered here is another link for some good kit

http://www.sera.de/typo3temp/pics/5d3aca5f7d.jpg

http://www.sera.de/uk/pages/products/category/370.html


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## daza.141 (19 Nov 2012)

REDSTEVEO said:
			
		

> ps don't worry about your mishspelling noe ones going to take the pyth here



   Very true Tetra do one that isn't to bad.


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## Garuf (19 Nov 2012)

Akadama is super cheap if you're prepared to do the leg work and has a higher CEC than ada's aquasoil, isn't as pretty though, tropica's base layer is very good too and much cheaper to buy but costs average out at about the same once you factor in gravel/sand. 

http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/akadama.htm


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## daza.141 (19 Nov 2012)

However if you do opt for the Akadama then i would suggest you let it cycle for at least 3 weeks as it will bring the PH and KH levels up !!.


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## Garuf (20 Nov 2012)

Do you mean drop? Most people experience a drop in KH but a rise in GH.


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## daza.141 (20 Nov 2012)

That's the badger ! ha cheers Garuf


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## ceg4048 (20 Nov 2012)

REDSTEVEO said:
			
		

> Does this now mean that I can adjust the PH setting on my PH sensor to say 6.30 and get more CO2 into the water without doing any damage? I only ask this because the setting of 6.50 does not seem to have much affect on the colour of the drop checker, lately it is still dark green most of the time and I know you are a big fan of bright yellow before lights on and darker green by the end of the day.


Well depending on your lighting you may not need to be as extreme as to be in the yellow zone, but yes, if you are using a pH controller (which is not a good idea generally) then setting a lower pH target value will achieve a higher dissolved CO2 concentration. As I mentioned, setting too low a pH value carries the risk of overdosing CO2 and that will cause damage, not the pH. 

It just depends on what the alkalinity of the tank water is. That is why the controller has no idea about how much CO2 is in the water. It only measures the pH without an alkalinity context. If your water has a high alkalinity then it buffers the carbonic acid and the meter sees only a small pH change, so it's possible to kill the fish because a lot of CO2 is in the water with only a small change in pH. If the tank water has a low alkalinity then small amounts of CO2 cause large drops in pH and the plants suffer poor CO2. That's why we suggest that you turn off the controlling function of the controller and to simply use it to monitor the pH. 

Controllers also do not care about the rate at which the gas is injected and so the rate varies during the day. This can contribute to CO2 instability which can in turn, result in BBA blooms.

Cheers,


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## uk bulldog (20 Nov 2012)

Hi Daza,i intend to buy ADA as like yourself i dont think going the cheeper route will help me in the long run,its now a matter of working out how much i will need to buy as the tank is 5 1/2 foot long x 18" wide x 30 "high i then intend on useing black quartz gravel ontop of that so i know its going to set me back a bit as far as substrates are concerned & as its been stated if youre going to do a job doit  right.The tank has a good hight of 30" so i will be looking at useing plants that will reach the surfice as well as the useual amazon swords & java ferns but i would also like to use something that will give me a good carpet effect but being new to planted tanks i will have to take a lot of advice from those that know & do a lot of reading to find what will suit the tank best.I'm still looking into what Co2 set up will be best for me,the lighting i have is an iquatics luminair that has 6 80w tubes but i,m able to switch between 3 & 6 as it has 2 plugs so i hope this will help asfar as increaseing the light asit is needed i also have an LED setup that i was thinking of useing,my filter is an FX5 but i find this very noisey so am looking at changeing it for an ehiem pro 3e, plus as i have an ehiem 2217 i was going to use that aswell.

Paul


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## REDSTEVEO (20 Nov 2012)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> REDSTEVEO said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks Clive, that explains a lot. I will leave it there for now and let uk bulldog crack on with his thread.

Good luck uk bulldog, I am interested to to see how you get on. Start saving up your pennies for the ADA kit by the sounds of it. Did you check out the links I posted before?

Cheers,

Steve


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## uk bulldog (20 Nov 2012)

Hi Steve yes thanks the link on substrates makes intresing reading although im still trying to digest it all.The ADA sure isnt cheap at £35 for 9ltr & i think im looking at a good 4 or 5 bags if i have worked it out correctly but knowing me i havent

Paul


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## REDSTEVEO (20 Nov 2012)

Check out the other link to the SERA Catalogue, it is an option, Sera Mineral soil or Mineral depot.


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## uk bulldog (20 Nov 2012)

Hi steve thanks again for the link but after a long & helpfull chat with the guys at the green machine i bit the bullet  & have just orderd 6 bags of ADA amazonia,an Ehiem pro 3 e 1200xlt a TGM Co2 kit & an Aqua medic 1000 reactor all of which should be with me on thursday.So now the bit that really hurt has been done (& believe me it did hurt but i wont tell the mrs as that would hurt even more  ) i can get down to looking at what plants i want.

Paul


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## daza.141 (20 Nov 2012)

Hi uk bulldog and ok as i was going to say u may not need CO2 as i do not use it and mine is fine if u was to have plants reaching the surface then thaey would gain alot of CO2 anyways in which they release some into the water, i have started to do a riccia carpet with no CO2 nothing i have no ferts nothing at all and it is amazing i will upload a picture in which i took a little while back of it ill try and grab a camera to take a new one for you it looks amazing !! 

Darren


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## uk bulldog (20 Nov 2012)

Wow that all sounds great daza but i have taken the plunge now & gone for it but it would be good to see your pics.

Paul


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## daza.141 (20 Nov 2012)

#Riccia Carpet by Darren Williams., on Flickr 


#Riccia Carpet by Darren Williams., on Flickr 

Remembering This Is All Grown With Nothing At All No Co2 No Ferts !! Nothing !! 

Darren


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## jack-rythm (20 Nov 2012)

Riccia doesn't need co2  

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


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## REDSTEVEO (20 Nov 2012)

Riccia Carpet without CO2     I have got to see this.

Pictures


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## daza.141 (20 Nov 2012)

well its growing well with no ferts etc so ha jack go back to using your toilet ladle !!  aha


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## Garuf (20 Nov 2012)

I would say the best thing is to shop around and see what else you can get from elsewhere, buying products because they're from a nice shop doesn't always get you the best products. Read around decide what's best because it's right for the job you have and work from there. 

Why may I ask are you capping the ADA, it's strength comes from the fact it is an all in one requiring no capping, if you were to cap it you may as well use tropica's base layer. 

I have to say it's a touch misleading to suggest riccia doesn't need co2, it doesn't need co2 if it's in a very narrow band of par and in very specific situation where atmospheric co2 is just able to match the overall biomass requirement of the riccia. It all depends on the light, flow, depth of the tank and the overall biomass of the tank.


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## daza.141 (20 Nov 2012)

My tank is 800x300x400 (LXWXH) 
light is GLO, MODEL A-3900 22" 24W T5 
and has a good flow


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## Garuf (20 Nov 2012)

From the pictures it's also clear that you have a very low biomass which means the atmospheric co2 is nearer to the percentage needed for it to grow. Ultimately plants grow because they can not because the conditions are perfect. I was simply pointing out that it's very hard and sometimes unwise to make sweeping remarks in this hobby when the dynamics of every single tank is different and you could easily find at some point that you do need ferts or co2 or any other thing. I would also perhaps cheekily suggest that if riccia was really growing well it'd be pearling like a mother, especially given your light load, in the past it was used as a identifier species, when it started to pearl people knew they were adding enough co2/ferts. 

Another thing is to assume flow is good, you're a brave man, it's only good till you have problems in my experience, then you discover it wasn't as good as you thought.


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## daza.141 (20 Nov 2012)

ha fair enough and it is pearling they are old pics i have taken a newer one today and i was just saying information on which i found worked for me as you will see i am new to this whole thing to as of my fish status thing and was trying to help with what i have found seemed to work


#Riccia Pearling by Darren Williams., on Flickr


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## Garuf (20 Nov 2012)

Oh no, don't take it the wrong way, I'm not berating you at all, I was pointing out that some things appear to go against logic or the general accepted but in reality they work in just the same way and work for very specific reasons that might not be applicable to someone else, imagine it a bit like saying "well, I'm a size 8 and that fits me so a size 8 must fit everyone". Plants needs and demands are always the same it's how you provide them that varies and every tank dynamic will having the same but varying needs which must be met.


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## daza.141 (20 Nov 2012)

ahh i see  fair enough buddy  

Cheers


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## foxfish (20 Nov 2012)

jack-rythm said:
			
		

> Riccia doesn't need co2
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


That does look like unusually splendid growth from a non C02 injected tank!


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## jack-rythm (21 Nov 2012)

I'm pleased I passed it forward now   get in there Darren! Come over tonight Daz I got some more to trim for u!   got to send some off to another ukaps member but you can have my next lot. My peacock moss from Tim should arrive today so u can check that out too  

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


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## uk bulldog (21 Nov 2012)

Hi Garuf i fully understand what you say regards shoping around to see what is available to do the job i require but as i was given a great deal by TGM on the equipment i bought along with very sound advice it seemed logical to buy my bits there ie the Ehiem pro3 1200xlt was sold to me at price i was unable to match anywhere else & at a great saveing just like the ADA its on an if i dont use a bag they will take it back senario & the Co2 system with an aquamedic reactor was more than competertively priced .Plus after talking to TGM i now realise i dont need to top  off the ADA with gravel so i wont be,but thanks for your advice as it is more than welcome.

Daza that Riccia carpet looks stunning to me but like you i am new to all regards planted tanks & now i have a lot to learn & know doubt i will make a lot of mistakes along the way which was my reason for joining this forum & im more than happy to take on any advice from people in the know & thanks for the pics.

Paul


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## dw1305 (21 Nov 2012)

Hi all,
I have a low tech _Riccia_ "carpet", unfortunately it is at the waters surface, not the substrates. 


> Hi Steve i have had a Ph crash in the past that has led to fish dyeing but that was due to me useing RO water to lower the Kh & through not monitoring the amount of RO used my Ph crashed well below what my fish would toloerate & a very unstable Ph level at that,that inturn led to an expensive mistake i will not make again.


I get this a lot on some of the other forums, but  "pH crash" honestly is a myth in planted tanks. The problem is that pH isn't a very useful measurement away from carbonate buffered water, once we get into water with few salts in it (like RO) pH becomes totally meaningless and inherently unstable. 

pH is a ratio, and it tells us nothing about amounts. 

If you can visualise the acidity/alkalinity in terms of the relative amounts of proton (H+ ion) donors and acceptors, and their reserves, rather than being entirely reliant on their ratio (which we measure as pH) it becomes a lot easier. If you have small potential reserve of H+ acceptors and donors, (the soft water/low conductivity scenario), the pH can swing about over almost the entire pH scale, but there can only ever be a very limited change in the numbers of ions and it is the total amount of ions that is much more important than their relative ratio.

You get the exact reverse of this is in very strongly buffered alkaline water (with a huge reserve of H+ acceptors) where you need to make extremely large changes in water chemistry to effect the pH. 

That is not to say that low pH and lack of buffering are irrelevant, they aren't and in very soft, salts poor water, biological filtration capacity will be compromised and if biological filtration is severely compromised acidosis can occur in the un-planted tank. Both fish dying and low pH are symptoms of the loss of biological filtration, rather than the low pH killing the fish.  

However in planted tanks we can largely ignore biological filtration by the filter bacteria (which require HCO3) because the plants are removing the NH4+ ions before microbial oxidation occurs. 


> fish as a rule are quite tolerant to reasonably high Ph but not to low.


 This is another factoid you get on a lot of forums, but again you can't generalise, it all depends upon the fish. Lake Tanganyika cichlids, for example, have evolved in infinitely buffered water where small changes in pH indicate huge changes in alkalinity, but another cichlid like _Apistogramma nijsenni_ has evolved in water with virtually no salts, but with plenty of acid humic compounds. In this second case these black-water fish are prone to unexplained death if kept in harder, saltier water.

cheers Darrel


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## daza.141 (21 Nov 2012)

ideal will do mate  
Darren


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## jack-rythm (21 Nov 2012)

your lush mix came too


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## Skatersav (21 Nov 2012)

> "This is another factoid you get on a lot of forums, but again you can't generalise, it all depends upon the fish. Lake Tanganyika cichlids, for example, have evolved in infinitely buffered water where small changes in pH indicate huge changes in alkalinity, but another cichlid like Apistogramma nijsenni has evolved in water with virtually no salts, but with plenty of acid humic compounds. In this second case these black-water fish are prone to unexplained death if kept in harder, saltier water."



Sorry, to hijack this, but can I ask Darrel to expand a little more on this point?  Does this make Tanganyikan cichlids unsuitable for a planted aquarium?  I assume, from what you're saying, that in hard water, injecting CO2 won't have a meaningful impact on the environment the fish experiences, other than more luscious plants to swim around, and so there is no concern.  I live in London, don't use RO, so my tank is basically just hard London water.  I don't know how hard, but quite hard.  I inject CO2, have big lights, EI, lots of flow etc.    Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.  

Thanks to all, S


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## jack-rythm (21 Nov 2012)

By all means its actually an interesting point you made!

Sent from my Nexus 7


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## dw1305 (21 Nov 2012)

Hi all,


> Does this make Tanganyikan cichlids unsuitable for a planted aquarium?


 Simple answer is I don't know.  I know Ed Seeley has kept high tech tanks and Tanganyikan Cichlids, but I'm not sure it was simultaneously.  Most  Rift Valley Cichlid keepers tend not to have any plants, and the only planted tanks I've seen have been low tech. which were fine.


> I assume, from what you're saying, that in hard water, injecting CO2 won't have a meaningful impact on the environment the fish experiences, other than more luscious plants to swim around, and so there is no concern. I live in London, don't use RO, so my tank is basically just hard London water.


High CO2 levels can definitely have an impact on your fish, if you ramp the CO2 high enough to get your drop checker (pH indicator) into the green or yellow (with very hard water and bromothymol blue indicator), you will have asphyxiated your fish. I'm not a CO2 user, but based on the table below you would still be in the alkaline pH range when you got to 30ppm CO2. From <http://www.tropica.com/en/tropica-abc/basic-knowledge/co2-in-the-aquarium/co2-table.aspx>







cheers Darrel


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## uk bulldog (21 Nov 2012)

Hi Darrel,i can see where you are comeing from regards Ph crash in the planted tank but when i breed my angels they are kept in barebottom tanks with no plants & no Co2,i used RO water to lower the Kh in my tank as the harness was to high for breeding the angels,the mistake i made was to use way tomuch RO to try & lower the Kh which inturn lowerd my Ph to below 4Ph which basicly wiped out my fish which i understand to be a Ph crash if i am wrong then i stand corrected & thanks for pointing it out.

Paul


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## ceg4048 (21 Nov 2012)

Yes, you have drawn the wrong conclusion as to cause of death. Something else killed your fish and whatever it was may also have had an impact on the pH, or the pH may have only coincidentally been low.Since no one does an autopsy on fish that perish people guess incorrectly as to the cause of death. There is a plethora of possibilities as to the root cause, but fish that have evolved in acid waters cannot possibly be killed just due to acidic waters. I have routinely kept and bred dwarf chiclids in RO water below pH 4 and many times I could only breeding success I could get was to lower the pH below 3 so low pH causing death cannot be a cause. Angels originate in the same waters as dwarf chiclids.



			
				Skatersav said:
			
		

> Does this make Tanganyikan cichlids unsuitable for a planted aquarium? I assume, from what you're saying, that in hard water, injecting CO2 won't have a meaningful impact on the environment the fish experiences, other than more luscious plants to swim around, and so there is no concern.


CO2 has an enormous impact on the environment because it is extremely toxic to fish. Therefore a planted tank with Tanganyika cichlids carries exactly the same risk as with any other fish in an CO2 injected tank.

Rift Valley chiclids are typically not kept in planted tanks because they tend to rip the plants apart, therefore, depending on the species, the plants must either be protected using some kind of barrier or the plants must be of the very tough and hardy variety to discourage the fish from attacking. This limits the types of plants that can be used. Other than that there is no reason why they cannot be mixed. These lakes typically do not have plants due to the extremely high Sodium content, some plants can be found normally only in the littoral zones (i.e, shoreline) so most of the hobbyists typically do not associate plants with these fish. High alkalinity or high general hardness is not a deterrent to plant growth, only the sodium caries the toxicity, but people don't bother to think about that, they just assume that because the lakes have a high GH/KH and that it must be bad for plants. This is how the myth about RO water being necessary for plants came about, because Amazonia has soft water with plants while Rift Valley Lakes have hard water with no plants. As it turns out London tap water is fine for plants so the only problem with Tanganyikans is to find a way or a species that are less hostile to plants as well as to find plants that are somewhat resistant to the attacks.

Cheers,


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## Clifford (21 Nov 2012)

Most of the Tanganyikan cichlids available couldn't care less about the plants in the tank, and any plants tend to be for the pleasure of the fishkeeper. Of the most commonly kept only the Tropheus are particularly herbivorous. The rest are pretty much carnivorous, and only damage plants if they dig to set up territories or as breeding behaviour.

Vallis, in particular, seems to do very well and provides an excellent screen to reduce sight lines and aggression. I'm sure there may well be some reason why vallis seems to thrive in water with high KH, but I don't know what that is.


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## ceg4048 (21 Nov 2012)

Well there you have it. If most are not prone to attack the plants then there is no issue at all.

Vallis has the ability to convert the bicarbonate to CO2 using the reactions:
(bicarbonate)HCO3- + (H+) => (Carbonic acid)H2CO3
Then
(Carbonic acid)H2CO3  => CO2 + H2O

Hydrogen protons (H+) are pumped out into the water column from the leaf and immediately reacts with the bicarbonate (which is responsible for high KH.) After the CO2 is formed in the  vicinity it can then be absorbed by the leaf.

About 50% of aquatic plants have this capability to a greater or lesser extent.

Cheers,


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## Clifford (21 Nov 2012)

Now that's interesting. I had been told by a chap that had kept aquariums for a very long time that vallis "used" the KH to grow, but he was never able to explain to me why or how.

Is this a "default" behaviour for plants such Vallis - i.e. will it use this process to convert  bicarbonate to co2 irrespective of bicarbonate levels, or is this method of conversion only used when levels are high?

I'd imagine pumping H into the water column to release CO2 is quite a high energy exercise compared to simply absorbing readily available CO2 as would be found in a CO2 enritched tank?


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## Ady34 (21 Nov 2012)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Well there you have it. If most are not prone to attack the plants then there is no issue at all.
> 
> Vallis has the ability to convert the bicarbonate to CO2 using the reactions:
> (bicarbonate)HCO3- + (H+) => (Carbonic acid)H2CO3
> ...


Hi Clive,
sorry if this sounds dumb, but its always intrigued me slightly..... I have low carbonate water, would vallis choose c02 or the kh extraction process first?....or both? Im guessing that its harder work for the plant to convert the KH to c02 and therefore if c02 is already available they will just use it without the chemistry?
Thanks,
Ady.


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## Skatersav (21 Nov 2012)

this website is awsome. thanks all


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## ceg4048 (21 Nov 2012)

Yes, there is some energy cost for proton pumping, however, what we have to consider is that the use of bicarbonate is a competitive advantage. Natural systems are often limited in CO2 so this ability opens up new areas of exploitation if atmospheric CO2 is not readily available. CO2 is more important than anything else so it's usually worth the investment. 

Hydrogen proton production occurs in the initial stages of photosynthesis where the water molecules (H20) are split by hydrolysis. The protons are used  to produce ATP, which is later used to make sugar in the final stages of photosynthesis, so the "Proton Pump" mechanism is actually very well developed.

As to bicarbonate usage as a default behavior, well, this is a loaded question because there are so many environmental variables.. For example, a plant may have the ability, but the local water may be low in bicarbonate and slightly higher in CO2, so a better strategy may be to allocate energy in maximizing uptake enzymes/proteins for direct CO2 uptake. The plants are "atheletic" and so will choose the best technique based on cost/benefit.

I've read the results of some experiments using Elodea nuttalli wherein if the plant is subjected to high CO2 levels for extended periods it actually loses the ability to use bicarbonate. The same plants under conditions of low CO2 increased their capacity to use bicarbonate. So this seems more like a "rolling average" behavior as opposed to strict rule.

There are a couple of different ways of maximizing CO2; the bicarbonate method, the use of root uptake of CO2 since the sediment often has a lot of microbe activity which produces CO2 (which Vallis is also very good at), and another mechanism involves the sequestering of CO2 during non-photoperiod times and the conversion and storage of it as an acid called "malate" for later use when the light is available. This mechanism is referred to as Crassulacean acid metabolism (CAM).

So there are all kinds of strategies depending on what stress the plant faces and what it's capable of. The plant has to assess what's available and what the cost/benefit ratio is of a particular strategy. These abilities marks the difference between delicate plants that disintegrate if you even look at them the wrong way, and  those that are indomitable weeds.

Cheers,


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## Ady34 (22 Nov 2012)

8) 
Thanks Clive.
Is it generally the true aquatic species that tend to have the ability to extract carbonates for conversion or just a few limited species? Or do all plants have this in their survival pack, just some more so than others and does it mean that those with low carbonate water need to be even more generous with co2 as there is no back up? I know gas/atmospheric co2 is most important to focus on, but technically do you have a tiny bit more leniency with co2 injection rate in higher carbonate water?
Cheers
Ady


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## Clifford (22 Nov 2012)

Thanks Clive,

A truly fascinating and informative reply.

I'm always amazed at the diversity and adaptability of both the flora and fauna that we keep.


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## ceg4048 (22 Nov 2012)

Ady34 said:
			
		

> Is it generally the true aquatic species that tend to have the ability to extract carbonates for conversion or just a few limited species? Or do all plants have this in their survival pack, just some more so than others and does it mean that those with low carbonate water need to be even more generous with co2 as there is no back up? I know gas/atmospheric co2 is most important to focus on, but technically do you have a tiny bit more leniency with co2 injection rate in higher carbonate water?


The bicarbonate usage ability occurs in about 50% of species, so those that don't have the ability are at a competitive disadvantage and so there is less margin of error. As I mentioned, because of the various strategies, some plants based on their combination of abilities, have a much wider tolerance for poor CO2 injection.

We see this reflected everyday in out tanks. When the CO2 availability becomes perturbed we see some particular plants start to melt or to get CO2 related algae first, while others simply carry on. But, remember the different strategies involved that I mentioned above. Because of the different strategies, as well as the different abilities that species (as well as the individual specimens) may have, it's not always clear that the bicarbonate usage is the specific mechanism at play in any given scenario. Also remember as discussed above that the plant has to assess the cost vs benefit and has to decide to invest energy in the maintenance of that strategy. As with that experiment with Elodea I mentioned it may be that if you inject high levels of CO2 the plant decides to shut down the bicarbonate mechanism and allocate it's resources to some other function.

Since we don't know at any given moment what strategy is being employed by what plant, and to what degree, it's not a good idea to unilaterally decide that you can drop the injection rate just because the KH is high. We just know, based on low tech tanks, that some of these old school plants like Egeria, Elodea and Vallis happen to be good at this bicarbonate strategy, and we have a pretty good hint that plants which have a large root network typically are good at sediment CO2 uptake. It's much less obvious which species are using what degree of C4/CAM strategy.

So unless you have a tank full of only Vallis/Elodea it's not a certainty that you'll have leniency in high KH water when it comes to CO2 injection. What happens if you have both Vallis and HC in the same tank? Your CO2 injection has to serve the least competent species in the tank, and we know by now that most carpet plants wear a dunce cap when it comes to CO2 uptake competence.

Cheers,


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## uk bulldog (22 Nov 2012)

Hi ceg4048 thanks for your reply & insight as to the death of my fish & what i assumed was due to Ph levels you have now given me something to think about as to other causes.Once again thank you.

Paul


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