# High PH



## Tommy (27 Oct 2018)

I have had my new planted tank running for about a week and a half to two weeks, the PH is on the high side, I measured it last night and it was 7.6. Measured again this morning it is 8.0. Is there anyway to get the PH down? I have not put fish in yet but I am thinking of putting a bit fresh fish or prawn in to start the nitrogen cycle. Amonia is at 0 as is nitrite and nitrate. Thanks


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## Edvet (27 Oct 2018)

The plants will 'eat' all the ammonia .nitrite and nitrate.
To reduce pH add some peat, or leaves or RO water.


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## Tommy (27 Oct 2018)

Edvet said:


> The plants will 'eat' all the ammonia .nitrite and nitrate.
> To reduce pH add some peat, or leaves or RO water.



Thanks Ed I will get some leaves but what kind do I need? Can I just go outside and get some that's come off a tree? or do you need specific leaves? So if the plants are eating the ammonia etc, am I ok to add a few fish? or am I best off just dropping a prawn in? I have some aquaone bio starter to go in. Sorry for all the questions


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## Edvet (27 Oct 2018)

Healthy growing plants will contain a lot of bacteria.
Starters don't do much, you can get the same bacteria from the rootsystem of a healthy garden plant, or rinse a working filter in the tank, or throw in some substrate from a healthy tank. No use in spending money there.
A 6 week old healthy tank with lots of growing and healthy plants will be very resilient, just dont add all livestock at once.
Leaves: not green ones but dried ones, oak, beach, etc Or tropical ones like catappa, guave, magnolia


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## Tommy (27 Oct 2018)

Edvet said:


> Healthy growing plants will contain a lot of bacteria.
> Starters don't do much, you can get the same bacteria from the rootsystem of a healthy garden plant, or rinse a working filter in the tank, or throw in some substrate from a healthy tank. No use in spending money there.
> A 6 week old healthy tank with lots of growing and healthy plants will be very resilient, just dont add all livestock at once.
> Leaves: not green ones but dried ones, oak, beach, etc Or tropical ones like catappa, guave, magnolia



Thanks Ed


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## alto (27 Oct 2018)

I like to start planted tanks slowly, allowing plants to root before adding fish - this is especially important if you’re trying to establish a carpet and want to have corydoras - or other substrate active fish ... even large japonica shrimp can be hell on beginning HC carpets 

BUT I also start tanks impulsively after acquiring fish I’ve been longing for that I see in a shop (most local shops won’t “hold” fish even prepaid) 

Media from another filter is always my preference but failing that Seachem’s Stability seems to work surprisingly well 
BUT it’s important to follow the directions (I still do daily water changes both for plants and my paranoia - my impulse buys are the wild caught sensitive sorts of fish  )

Rather than adding a prawn - rather smelly AND a rapid ammonia dump (which can have an inhibitory effect on some of the bacteria you’re hoping to encourage) - just use fish food as if feeding a dozen small tetras, add this alternate days as no one is actually eating the food 

If you’ve actively growing plants and small fish load relative to water volume (& plant volume), there’s no reason not to add fish or algae crew a few days after plants ... just a bit tense if your plants suddenly melt ... but nowadays you can then just pick up Seachem Stability


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## Zeus. (27 Oct 2018)

Why are you after lowering the pH ? Is it for some specific livestock you plan to put in the tank.


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## Tommy (28 Oct 2018)

alto said:


> I like to start planted tanks slowly, allowing plants to root before adding fish - this is especially important if you’re trying to establish a carpet and want to have corydoras - or other substrate active fish ... even large japonica shrimp can be hell on beginning HC carpets
> 
> BUT I also start tanks impulsively after acquiring fish I’ve been longing for that I see in a shop (most local shops won’t “hold” fish even prepaid)
> 
> ...



Thanks alto I will drop some food in


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## Tommy (28 Oct 2018)

Zeus. said:


> Why are you after lowering the pH ? Is it for some specific livestock you plan to put in the tank.



Ive got some rainbows to go in and I am thinking of putting some Moenkausia Costae, I would prefer the PH to be closer to 7.


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## Tommy (31 Oct 2018)

Update on my PH, the pen meter I bought is not accurate, it is showing the PH at 7.8 - 8 but when I check with my API test kit my PH is 7 so I got my LFS to test my water and it is 7. I did calibrate the pen as per instructions. I will be getting my Co2 kit this week and I will be doing a PH profile, should I still use the pen or can you do it with the API test kit? Thanks


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## Edvet (31 Oct 2018)

Can''t you calibrate the pen?


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## Tommy (31 Oct 2018)

.





Edvet said:


> Can''t you calibrate the pen?



I did calibrate Ed using the buffer powder 250ml water @ 25 degrees, I thought it was accurate as it showed 4 as low PH and 6 as high ( I think those were the values ) but the API tests kits are showing a different PH than the pen


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## Siege (31 Oct 2018)

Don’t put any fish food or a prawn in. Assuming you are reasonably heavily planted' he plants will do most of the bio filteration.

Best to get on with your co2 and ignore the testing, calibrate your ph pen for a co2 profile once it is set up. 
ignore the usual test kits.


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## Tommy (31 Oct 2018)

Siege said:


> Don’t put any fish food or a prawn in. Assuming you are reasonably heavily planted' he plants will do most of the bio filteration.
> 
> Best to get on with your co2 and ignore the testing, calibrate your ph pen for a co2 profile once it is set up.
> ignore the usual test kits.



The pen was just calibrated a week ago I don't have any more buffer solution to do it again, could I not just use the values the pen is stating? so if the PH is say 8 before Co2 and then drops to 7 during the day with Co2 on, that is what I am aiming for I think? then it wouldn't matter if the pen was different to the other test kit, or am I wrong?


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## alto (31 Oct 2018)

Yes you’re wrong - you have no way of knowing what’s going on with that pH pen - just return as defective

Which model?

How is it calibrated?

You really need a 3 point calibration over the pH range you plan to measure AND an intermediate pH standard to test before determining that a pH probe is working as “promised”

Many cheap pH pens use an electronic single point calibration ...
- so put a point on some graph paper & draw a bunch of lines through it - any of those lines may be what your pH “pen” may be doing  
- then put a point at 4 and a point at 6 and draw a straight line, then extend the line to 8 as a) a straight line, then b) as a plateau line - both of these line shapes are very common in experimental measurements
You’ve no way to knowing whIch line your pH pen is following or even if it is a smooth curve 

The discrepancy between the pH pen & the test kit pH results from 2 different sources is not encouraging 

A pH probe should be calibrated or calibration checked daily so last week’s calibration (which sounds questionable) is like saying it didn’t rain last Thursday, so it won’t rain this Thursday 

Contact your water supplier for water analysis reports over the last 1-5 years, this will allow you to see trends & fluctuations in water quality


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## Tommy (31 Oct 2018)

alto said:


> Yes you’re wrong - you have no way of knowing what’s going on with that pH pen - just return as defective
> 
> Which model?
> 
> ...



That all sounds complicated, I will buy another pen is there a one you can recommend that's not too expensive? that one I bought was only a fiver.


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## dw1305 (1 Nov 2018)

Hi all,





Tommy said:


> that one I bought was only a fiver.


I agree with @alto, pH meters aren't straightforward bits of kit, and one for a £5 is pretty much worse then useless. 

Have a look at <"A long start, ....">, it explains why a drop checker is accurate, and why it shows what the CO2 concentration was, rather than is.





Tommy said:


> it is showing the PH at 7.8 - 8


It is likely to be somewhere about pH8, this is because of the carbonate: pH: CO2 equilibrium, basically if you have water with more than a minimal amount of carbonate hardness.

cheers Darrel


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## Tommy (1 Nov 2018)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,I agree with @alto, pH meters aren't straightforward bits of kit, and one for a £5 is pretty much worse then useless.
> 
> Have a look at <"A long start, ....">, it explains why a drop checker is accurate, and why it shows what the CO2 concentration was, rather than is.It is likely to be somewhere about pH8, this is because of the carbonate: pH: CO2 equilibrium, basically if you have water with more than a minimal amount of carbonate hardness.
> 
> cheers Darrel



So can you set up the Co2 with just using the drop checker? My Co2 kit has come today so eager to set it up.


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## dw1305 (1 Nov 2018)

Hi all,





Tommy said:


> So can you set up the Co2 with just using the drop checker?


<"You can">, I'm not a CO2 user (I don't want quick growth and I can find enough ways of accidentally killing my fish without adding another one), so you would be best getting some practical advice from some-one who is about the pitfalls of the setting up process. I'll link in @alto and @Zeus. 

cheers Darrel


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## Tommy (1 Nov 2018)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,<"You can">, I'm not a CO2 user (I don't want quick growth and I can find enough ways of accidentally killing my fish without adding another one), so you would be best getting some practical advice from some-one who is about the pitfalls of the setting up process. I'll link in @alto and @Zeus.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Thanks Darrel appreciated mate


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## Tommy (1 Nov 2018)

Got the Co2 up and running with a bubble per second, lots of little bubbles in the tank. Ive got the drop checker in, its blue at the min so will wait a few hours and see what colour it is then.


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## alto (1 Nov 2018)

1 bps is a good conservative start for both fish and plants
I don’t recall which fish you have - or which plants 
But as plants have been surviving without additional CO2, I’d increase CO2 at a rate comfortable for fish - they need to do some biochemical changes to adapt to higher CO2 levels and this takes a few days to get going and a couple weeks to really settle


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## alto (1 Nov 2018)

OK 240l aquarium so I’d likely increase to 2bps tomorrow as long as fish seem fine


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## Tommy (1 Nov 2018)

alto said:


> 1 bps is a good conservative start for both fish and plants
> I don’t recall which fish you have - or which plants
> But as plants have been surviving without additional CO2, I’d increase CO2 at a rate comfortable for fish - they need to do some biochemical changes to adapt to higher CO2 levels and this takes a few days to get going and a couple weeks to really settle



Don't have any fish in yet alto, want to get the tank set up properly before I start to add them. I have anubias, bucephalandras, cryps, java ferns, a ludwigia, a bacopa and moss mate.


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## Zeus. (2 Nov 2018)

240L is pretty big tank.

I would not do it the same way as 'Alto' suggested not that he is wrong OFC as he has far more experience than me  

You have no livestock ATM so perfect time to setup the CO2. You dont need a pH pen but one is very handy to check your pH profile is stable once the lights are on. But you could start using the CO2 but if the [CO2] is fluctuating once the lights come on the plants will suffer if the [CO2]/pH fluctuates esp in the first 4-5hours. If you cant afford a decent pH pen I would go for some decent pH test strips but dont know which ones to advised as I have always used a pH pen/probe/controller.

You could go down the CO2 on 24/7 route as some do but it does use more CO2 OFC. But it does make things easier esp seeing the plants you have a dark green DC may be more than enough dependant on your light output

I have used a cheap pH pen is the past and did find it useful but not to measure the pH drop _per sa_ but just to measure if its stable and to ignore the actual reading value if that makes sense. So if it says says 7.10ph or 6.10pH it doesnt mater its the relative change it shows from lights on for first 4-5hours or till CO2 off. This method is subject to the errors the cheapo pH pens but with just justing the relative change after the Main pH drop IMO it minimises the errors in the actual pH reading. If going down this route still calibrate the pH pen but dont expect it to read the same valve day after day your just going of the relative change

If you have a high output light, with your CO2 equipment I would start the CO2 at a reasonable high BPS with the DC in the tank, the DC needs to be in a place where it doesnt catch any CO2 bubbles. Then allow 2-3hrs to allow the  [CO2] to reach equilibrium in the tank then you need to wait 2 hrs for the DC to change colour and stay at that colour , I would aim for yellowish/green first then dial back a bit on the BPS esp if it goes yellow. After 2hrs of CO2 being on use the cheap pH pen and start measure the pH and see if it remains relatively stable for the rest of the CO2 period esp from lights on using paper and pen and make a note of time and pH as you soon forget when you last did it, do it every 30mins

Also we have very little details of your tank like filter output lights etc and a FTS helps too. Plus the flow/turnover in the tank needs to be good esp with a 240l tank. Setting up CO2 on a tank is very hard to do right.

After writing all that I think the method 'Alto suggested would be the best bet as small steps as a beginner to CO2 will help you understand whats happening which will help you get the CO2 right  But try using the cheapo pH pen after lights on as it may help


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## Tommy (2 Nov 2018)

Zeus. said:


> 240L is pretty big tank.
> 
> I would not do it the same way as 'Alto' suggested not that he is wrong OFC as he has far more experience than me
> 
> ...



Hi Zeus, thanks for the detailed reply. So today Co2 on at 11 Lights on at 1, at 1-35 drop check was still blue so I increased the bubble count, went out to a LFS to get some plants, 4-45 drop checker was dark green, so increased the bubble count again, 8 is Co2 off so checked DC again it is lime green. Here's some pics of the tank and the drop checker. 




 


 


 


 


 

Let me know if my placement of the Co2 Diffuser and Drop Checker is in the right place and if the DC looks ok, Thanks


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## Tommy (2 Nov 2018)

When do you get the see the plants pearling off the Co2? cant wait for that it looks great in my opinion


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## alto (2 Nov 2018)

Zeus. said:


> I would not do it the same way as 'Alto' suggested not that he is wrong OFC as he has far more experience than me



No fish then no worries on working out the CO2 kinks


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## alto (2 Nov 2018)

24/7 CO2 is very useful if tank receives even low ambient light - I was surprised at how low that light can be and still “trigger” Rotala ‘Vietnam H’ra’ to “open” its leaves ... I tried to convince it to an evening photoperiod, 4pm - 11pm but it would “close” it’s leaves by 5pm 
Tank is in a dim corner under the stairs 

I also like 24/7 CO2 for a Tropica’s 1-2- Grow plants, I run lower bps during during the 24/7 period, transitioning to photoperiod CO2 once plants are actively growing, adding fish etc


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## Tommy (2 Nov 2018)

alto said:


> 24/7 CO2 is very useful if tank receives even low ambient light - I was surprised at how low that light can be and still “trigger” Rotala ‘Vietnam H’ra’ to “open” its leaves ... I tried to convince it to an evening photoperiod, 4pm - 11pm but it would “close” it’s leaves by 5pm
> Tank is in a dim corner under the stairs
> 
> I also like 24/7 CO2 for a Tropica’s 1-2- Grow plants, I run lower bps during during the 24/7 period, transitioning to photoperiod CO2 once plants are actively growing, adding fish etc



So does everything look ok so far mate?


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## Zeus. (2 Nov 2018)

Is your water intake and output on opposite sided of the tank? if so best next to each other 'if you can'
DC position is fine to start with, once you get the BPS that gets the colour change your after, then you can move it arround to see if the [CO2] is the same all over the tank.
Remember Tank turnover (flow) is KING in a high tech tank ( yes there are folk who do great things with low tank turnover but they are experienced )
CO2 bubbles don't seem to be reaching other side of tank (far right)


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## Tommy (2 Nov 2018)

Zeus. said:


> Is your water intake and output on opposite sided of the tank? if so best next to each other 'if you can'
> DC position is fine to start with, once you get the BPS that gets the colour change your after, then you can move it arround to see if the [CO2] is the same all over the tank.
> Remember Tank turnover (flow) is KING in a high tech tank ( yes there are folk who do great things with low tank turnover but they are experienced )
> CO2 bubbles don't seem to be reaching other side of tank (far right)



Yes one of my filters intake is on the left as theres no room on the right. My filters have 3 outlets all on the right. How could I improve the flow? add a wavemaker on left hand side? Co2 bubbles are drifting up through the middle, some reach but you have to look for them.


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## Zeus. (2 Nov 2018)

Tommy said:


> My filters have 3 outlets all on the right. How could I improve the flow?



play with the way their jets move the water as some jet positions/angles will give better flow its all trial and error


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