# Larry's Glade



## hotweldfire (27 May 2011)

Hi All,

This is my first journal, first Iwagumi and first attempt at a second tank. It's going to be a slow burner as I don't really have the cash for all the gear I need so the shrimp and plants in my main tank are going to have to subsidise this one until it's up and running and can pay for itself (will start a journal for my main tank shortly).

This is the cube:
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=16036

I bought two of these. I had originally planned to buy one as a b'day present for a mate who used to keep a tank a few years ago but stopped after his wife did a water change with untreated tap water. Real shame as he was living in Singapore at the time (think of the rare shrimp he could have brought back). Anyway whilst I was there I thought I may as well buy another as they were so cheap and stick it in the attic until I could justify a second tank (that's what I told myself anyway). However, once I told the better half what an Iwagumi looked like and the philosophy behind it she told me to set it up in the living room (will take a pic of the space shortly).

As a result it needs to look as good as possible which will mean glass lily pipes, external filter, inline co2 and heater etc. That's all a bit longer term though. First I want to get it up and running with what came with it (need to buy a cheap heater still).

For now I need some advice on design, immersed/emersed, substrate and temporary co2. Firstly substrate and emersed.

Substrate: It's probably between ada amazonia (not amazonia II) and colombo florabase. Price is pretty equivalent but I'm tending towards the ada because I've got a bit of it lying around which will probably mean I'll only need a 3 litre bag rather than a larger one. At the same time I'd rather go for the powder form because I imagine it will be easier to plant in. But I'm struggling to justify the much higher cost. Is there any advantage to the powder other than the ease of planting?

Secondly emersed. Never tried this before but my recent tear-my-hair-out experiences (well would be if I had any) with HC makes me tempted. At the same time I have some boraras brigittae in my main tank that I want to get out soon as possible as they are struggling with the low temp, high flow and larger and more boisterous vietnamese minnows in there. How long typically do people grow something like HC for before flooding the tank? Is it worth doing with only the 11w light that came with this tank?

Additional comments and critiques very welcome.


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## Bobtastic (27 May 2011)

*Re: Hi-tech Iwagumi Nano - questions, questions*

I would say if you have some Aquasoil laying around go for that. I've never used the powder so couldn't comment. Stu is currently doing an ADA setup using it tho. So have a read through and maybe send him a PM?

I don't think that there are many on here that do or have tried the Dry Start Method (DSM), but I believe that Tom Barr is the main man on this theory/application. It's not a sure fire way to get a lush HC carpet tho, as I've read of ppl that had very little success with it.


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## gmartins (27 May 2011)

*Re: Hi-tech Iwagumi Nano - questions, questions*

Hi,

I've recently started a 12 litre tank as a DSM and with HC. I only have 11watts. So what I can say is. Under 11 watts, things grow but slowly. I have lots of CO2. Drop-cheker is pretty yellow and I've gased some red cherries now .
My tank is 20 cm tall plus a 4-5 cm to the light. If yours is taller, then maybe 11 watt is a bit low for HC, anyways.

On the other hand, with the lower light, it's easier to avoid CO2-related problems (algae). The DSM was good as it allowed the roots to become well established so it's easier to plant. I left mine dry for 2 1/2 months.

The only problem I had with the DSM is that because I was using inert substrate, I now have BGA. Apparently is just a consequence of the low nitrates. I've upped my ferts and hoping it disapears soon. 

Hope this helps.


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## Stu Worrall (27 May 2011)

*Re: Hi-tech Iwagumi Nano - questions, questions*

im with Bob, if you have some AS already then get a small bag of powder.  Its lots easier to plant into when your doing a HC carpet so put some osmocote or power sand at the bottom, then some of the old AS then top with powder.

I'd also suggest to flood the tank straight away but this depends on if you can get the ferts/co2 and light into the tank from the off as you mentioned you were on a budget.  The light looks sorted as its not going to be mega high but have you got pressurised co2 ready to go?  Have a look at mark evans newest tank for the HC growth he got in 15 days.  On that he was using powersand, soild subrate and ferts and high co2 plus an easycarbo mix from the go which has worked really well.  If the tank has to be SWMBO friendly then a DSM tank sat for a couple of months with no water and condensation laden glass wont look so good IMO.

hope that helps some, links to my nano are in my sig below which ill be planting and flooding this weekend


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## JEK (27 May 2011)

*Re: Hi-tech Iwagumi Nano - questions, questions*

Worth to mention is also that powder looks so much neater i small tanks.


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## hotweldfire (27 May 2011)

*Re: Hi-tech Iwagumi Nano - questions, questions*

Thanks all. The advice is much appreciated.



			
				gmartins said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> I've recently started a 12 litre tank as a DSM and with HC. I only have 11watts. So what I can say is. Under 11 watts, things grow but slowly. I have lots of CO2. Drop-cheker is pretty yellow and I've gased some red cherries now .
> My tank is 20 cm tall plus a 4-5 cm to the light. If yours is taller, then maybe 11 watt is a bit low for HC, anyways.



The tank is 30cm tall with the same lights as you. Might not be enough but given enough patience the HC will hopefully grow in. As you say, I'd rather have a slower growing scape than battle the algae. Have done enough of that to last a lifetime.



			
				stuworrall said:
			
		

> im with Bob, if you have some AS already then get a small bag of powder.  Its lots easier to plant into when your doing a HC carpet so put some osmocote or power sand at the bottom, then some of the old AS then top with powder.
> 
> I'd also suggest to flood the tank straight away but this depends on if you can get the ferts/co2 and light into the tank from the off as you mentioned you were on a budget.  The light looks sorted as its not going to be mega high but have you got pressurised co2 ready to go?  Have a look at mark evans newest tank for the HC growth he got in 15 days.  On that he was using powersand, soild subrate and ferts and high co2 plus an easycarbo mix from the go which has worked really well.  If the tank has to be SWMBO friendly then a DSM tank sat for a couple of months with no water and condensation laden glass wont look so good IMO.
> 
> hope that helps some, links to my nano are in my sig below which ill be planting and flooding this weekend



Yep, will probably go with the powder and was thinking about osmocote (power sand too expensive for the amount I need). I certainly can't wait 2 months before flooding. What's SWMBO? I assume it's something to do with those who patiently tolerate our hobby and obsession?

Have read through the blue sky journal today and the growth is quite incredible. It has become one of my inspirations for this tank.

Ferts are sorted. Have the option of going for ADA green brighty step 2 + brighty k (which I have lying around) or an EI premix.

You've hit the nail on the head with the co2 issue though. I want to be flooding the tank with co2 from the get go but I can't afford a proper regulator and bottle right now so don't have pressurised co2 ready to go. I was trying to come up with a temporary solution i.e. one of the nano sets or maybe just job lots of excel/easy carbo. However, at least for the first option, the research I've done today suggests they're so not cost effective I should try to stump up the cash for some proper co2 gear now rather than waste a ton on a temporary kit. Unless liquid carbon on it's own will sustain the early stages of growth which I assume it won't.

Not about to go out and buy a whole jbl kit though. Considering one of the far east regs. Have seen worrying things on this forum about the solenoids on the HSL:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI....120693&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_5286wt_956
and UP:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI....625325&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_5860wt_905
ones.
Am also considering these:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270707059891&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI....87210&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_5042wt_1041
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI....466520&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_4489wt_925


Anyone have any experience with these?

There's also a TMC v2 on sale on this site too.


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## hotweldfire (28 May 2011)

*Re: Hi-tech Iwagumi Nano - questions, questions*

Sorry to totally and utterly waste everybody's time on this but I'm afraid I've had a complete rethink. Two reasons:

1) Have put the tank on top of the cabinet that I was planning to have it on and it looks stupid. Basically too small. There's 30 cm on either side. Happily there's another, more tucked away, shelf in the same room that's smaller and that would work better. Unfortunately it's a shelf rather than the top of a cabinet so nowhere to put externals like filter co2 etc.

2) More importantly I've realised I don't have the time or (after doing some research on all the gear I need) the money to attempt a hi-tech tank right now.

So am going in completely the opposite direction, i.e. totally low tech nano. Will do some trawling around for inspiration and then come back and ask for opinions/ideas shortly. Ta muchly for the patience and help.


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## hotweldfire (29 May 2011)

*Re: Hi-tech Iwagumi Nano - questions, questions*

Apologies for the awful photos - phone camera and low light.

This is where it was going to go (without all that crap around it obviously):






This is where it is now going to go:






Filter currently running in my main tank:


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## hotweldfire (29 May 2011)

*Re: Hi-tech Iwagumi Nano - questions, questions*

So, quick question. Is it sensible to use an active substrate like aquasoil in a low tech nano or should I be using something inert? The reason I'm asking is that this tank is going to be moss heavy which obviously won't be planted in the substrate and the tank won't have many fast growing plants to use up ferts. 

Effectively, what I'm asking is does aquasoil and the like leach NPK into the water column? Because if it does then I'm likely looking at an algae bloom because there's going to be little else using that up. If it doesn't then it's worth me using because long term I might want to use plants embedded into the substrate.


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## John Starkey (30 May 2011)

*Re: Hi-tech Iwagumi Nano - questions, questions*



			
				hotweldfire said:
			
		

> So, quick question. Is it sensible to use an active substrate like aquasoil in a low tech nano or should I be using something inert? The reason I'm asking is that this tank is going to be moss heavy which obviously won't be planted in the substrate and the tank won't have many fast growing plants to use up ferts.
> 
> Effectively, what I'm asking is does aquasoil and the like leach NPK into the water column? Because if it does then I'm likely looking at an algae bloom because there's going to be little else using that up. If it doesn't then it's worth me using because long term I might want to use plants embedded into the substrate.



Hi,in my opinion you don't need the ADA soil for what you are aiming to achieve,i am not too sure if ADA soil leache's NKP into the water,i suspect not,  plain old gravel will be fine because as you say you are not planning on planting anything into the substrate,to make it look even better you could use some graded gravel's too,

john.


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## hotweldfire (30 May 2011)

*Re: Hi-tech Iwagumi Nano - questions, questions*

Thanks for the reply. Am trying to hedge my bets a bit in case I can eventually move this to a space that will allow me to go high tech some time in the future. If that happens I'd rather not have to rip it all apart therefore having an active substrate in would be sensible as long as it doesn't play havoc with the water whilst it's a low tech setup. Also, whilst it will be moss heavy I will plant something in the substrate.

Am probably going to go for TMC Nutrasoil as my LFS sell 5 litres for £15. Exactly what they owe me for some shrimp I gave them. Would also be nice to have some spare to give to my mate as part of his tank present.


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## hotweldfire (1 Jun 2011)

*Re: Hi-tech Iwagumi Nano - questions, questions*

Found this in the garden shed:









Thinking about putting a sprinkle in the base of the tank as a powersand substitute. 5g for a 30x30x30? Other thing is I have no idea how old it is and there's not a best before. I didn't buy it and I moved in 6 years ago. Will this stuff degrade over time? Any consequences?


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## Stu Worrall (1 Jun 2011)

*Re: Hi-tech Iwagumi Nano - questions, questions*

i think the osmocote will be fine. thats what I use to sprinkle in the bottom of my tanks.  

Re the degredation the only thing they do is pop and realease the contents of the sphere in liquid form.  This is probably fine for planted tanks as its under the substrate.  They are bad for bonsai as if the pellet stays intact over summer then it can pop in the winter and flood the soil with a load of ferts you dont want at the wrong time of year.  As planted tanks dont seem to have seasons again it will be fine in there unless anyone knows any different?


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## hotweldfire (2 Jun 2011)

*Re: Now Lo-Tech nano - still questions, questions*

Thanks again Stu. Will put a teaspoon's worth in the bottom.

So, here's what's currently inspiring me:

http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2009.cgi?&op=showcase&category=0&vol=0&id=58

Love that Heteranthera. Apparently a very fragile plant though so will have to be treated with care.

Want to go for this sort of look but with a few differences

1) Redmoor twigs (have loads in main tank) sticking out of the Heteranthera. Won't poke through the surface. I might put some fissidens on the ends of some, not sure yet as that might detract from the Heteranthera.
2) Put some anubias petite scattered around the base of Heteranthera, at the darkest points
3) No HC, but use mini xmas moss as well as coral pelia on the rocks
4) Go for a carpet in front of the cliff instead of sand. I think this might look more natural if I broke it up with some smaller rocks. Thinking maybe marsilea

Picked this rock up yesterday (sorry again for photos, new SD card for DSLR on it's way):










Really like the layered look.

So, a few questions again I'm afraid:

1) Am I making a mistake using a carpet at the front? Will this ruin the cliff look?

2) If not, should I have an unbroken carpet or would using smaller rocks to break it up work? I was thinking of smaller rocks emerging in fingers from the cliff, maybe with some mid ground plants like hydrocotyle planted amongst them.

3) Again, if not, would marsilea be too big? Any low light alternatives? Thought about dwarf hairgrass but I think this would need to constantly trimmed to keep it short enough

4) Any tips on breaking up this rock?


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## hotweldfire (5 Jun 2011)

*Re: Now Lo-Tech nano - still questions, questions*

First effort at scaping it (actually first effort at scaping anything really).

Rock is pagoda rock. It fails the vinegar test but LFS assure me it won't harden the water much, especially with nutrasoil to counter act it.

Breaking it down from this:





to this:






Soaking in boiling water:






One teaspoon of Miracle Grow slow release:






Nutrasoil with my two year olds gardening set (great aquascaping tools BTW  ). Quite impressed with the size of the granules, smaller than aquasoil :






Base layer:






Building a bit of a slope:






Rocks in. From level of top rim of tank:






And from substrate level:






Somewhat closer:






And from above:






I think it needs more of a slope. Also, whilst I really like the rock laying more flattened out I think they need to be a bit more upright. Otherwise the stems behind are going to totally dominate the rock. Also, want to grow coral pelia in the cracks between the rocks and mini xmas/singapore on the tops of the rock. At the moment the xmas is just going to end up covering the nice layering near the top as it has got a top ridge to grow on.

Thoughts comments and critiques very welcome. Still struggling with what carpet to go for.


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## spyder (5 Jun 2011)

*Re: Now Lo-Tech nano - still questions, questions*

A bit more height for sure. 

If you going to carpet then those rocks would soon dissapear. More substrate, more slope it's looking very flat.

NIce rocks.  

Got me one of these cubes (20cm) , gonna grab a 30cm soon, or two


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## Stu Worrall (5 Jun 2011)

*Re: Now Lo-Tech nano - still questions, questions*

nice start and I like the pagoda.  As you said it is very low lying so if youve got any soil left id slope it a lot more as if you're going for any sort of carpet the rocks will be lost as soon as it starts growing.  It also looks quite low at the front which you may find difficult to plant into when you do the carpet.  The pelia in the crags sounds like a really good idea.


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## hotweldfire (5 Jun 2011)

*Re: Now Lo-Tech nano - still questions, questions*



			
				spyder said:
			
		

> Got me one of these cubes (20cm) , gonna grab a 30cm soon, or two



LOL. It's all about how you tell them.

Thanks both, plenty of substrate left so I will build up the slope. It's about 2cm at the front - that too shallow?


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## hotweldfire (9 Jun 2011)

*Re: Now Lo-Tech nano - still questions, questions*

Well, I've had a bit of a brain fart and have gone and run the thing probably quicker than I should have.

Coral pelia ready for attaching to the cracks between the rocks:






Then the camera battery ran out.

Here's what it looks like set up:





















Yep, that is HC in a low light non-CO2 tank. I know I'm on to a hiding for nothing but I couldn't for the life of me come up with another carpet that would look right. We'll just have to see how it works out. Almost certainly it'll all be melting and floating up over the next couple of weeks. Then I'll have to come up with a plan B.

Still not happy with the slope.  There is quite a strong slope which you can see from the penultimate pic but I didn't manage to fill out the substrate behind the rocks. Will attempt to do that this weekend.. Have slapped in a bunch of egeria densa as an ammonia sponge but couldn't get as much as I wanted so have shifted over some H. Angustifolia from my other tank as well as some rather ragged rotundifolia green and some frogbit. Also put in some hydrocotyle sibthorpioides and a couple of blades of DHG that was attached to the HC I bought.

Will eventually replace the background stems with the ones I've been planning and attach some anubias petite to some small remaining rocks to go behind the main rock face. Will also add some redmoor twigs that will come out of the stem bush.

Am going uber low tech aka Diana Walstad with this. I.e. no water changes if I can help it.

Wish me luck


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## nayr88 (9 Jun 2011)

*Re: Now Lo-Tech nano - still questions, questions*

Hey mate, haven't checked back in a while, but has made for a good little read  I like the rock a lot, havnt seen it before but looks really interesting.

I can't see the hc taking off  I'd I 10000000% would of gone for an xmas moss carpet, they look brilliant and would suit your set up. You can always replace the hc with moss at a later date anyway.

A low tech tank isn't complete without crypts!! So go get some haha. 

The  diana walstad tank approach isn't really going to work, I mean low tech guys and gals usualy do a lot less water changes, but your whole set up is what d.walstads method is not, you do have a nutrient rich soil but its not the same as top soil and the 'idea' behind the d.walstad thing is just ....I dunno...not this haha.

I had a d.walstad tank, mud from the garden, toped with gravel, loads of stems and crypts and low light loving plants, and the thing thrived, I didn't have a filter and it had a desk lamp over it  my betta loved it and was always setting up bubbles nests


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## hotweldfire (9 Jun 2011)

*Re: Now Lo-Tech nano - now up and running with photos*

Nayr, thanks   I hear what you're saying and ultimately you might well turn out to be right. But there is a distinction that's worth drawing between a look and a method. Naturally they often go hand in hand because the method typically limits what you can and can't grow and how it will grow. 

However, I don't think it's the case that a low tech tank has to be jungle-like or not heavily scaped. I think it can be the latter but you just have to wait a hell of a long time for it to get where you want it to be. Stems can grow and do ok in this environment as you say. HC? Almost certainly not although I have seen it done (e.g. in the AGA entry I linked to above). RE: the substrate, Tom Barr in his take on the Walstad method does suggest active substrates like I've used.

http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/2817-Non-CO2-methods

I think this tank is likely to fail   That's not too much of a disaster as it's a bit of an experiment. However, I think the method and scape combo (HC aside) won't be the cause - my impatience and lack of experience will. Should have waited longer for the filter to mature, should have added mulm to the substrate, should have planted more heavily.

Totally know where you're coming from with the moss carpet, would have looked even better than HC probably. But I wanted as much planted in the substrate as possible to feed oxygen to the bacteria.

BTW, should I remove the far left rock, at the back of tank. I'm finding it jarring.


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## Radik (9 Jun 2011)

*Re: Now Lo-Tech nano - now up and running with photos*

How is your tank now? No ammonia leach to the water column? I think you used too much of osmocote for the size of tank. I once used same in my 80L then I had to dig it all out as I been annoyed with constant ammonia at 4ppm


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## hotweldfire (9 Jun 2011)

*Re: Now Lo-Tech nano - now up and running with photos*

Really    Oh crap. 

I used a teaspoon's worth. Is that how much you used?

Haven't tested ammonia yet because I expect ammonia to be leaching from the nutrasoil. Hard to judge whether the osmocote is producing a problem because I don't know how much ammonia the nutrasoil will leach.

It may be a question of judging it by time rather than amount. If there are still high levels in a couple of weeks I may have a problem.


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## Radik (9 Jun 2011)

*Re: Now Lo-Tech nano - now up and running with photos*

yes observe do not put any stock in yet, osmocote can leach for months


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## nayr88 (9 Jun 2011)

*Re: Now Lo-Tech nano - now up and running with photos*

i didnt know it leached!! i havnt used it but i was thinking about it in a future scape.


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## Stu Worrall (9 Jun 2011)

*Re: Now Lo-Tech nano - now up and running with photos*

ive used it in a few scapes and not had any problems.  Do a search on here for osmocote and you'll get lots of hits.  Ceg has mentioned using 1-2 teaspoons per square foot so you should be ok  - http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=13353#p139591

Scape looks good by the way hotweldfire   but im with nayr on the HC battle you may face but its worth giving it a go to grow it.


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## hotweldfire (10 Jun 2011)

*Re: Now Lo-Tech nano - now up and running with photos*

Thanks Stu. I agree with you both about the HC but, as you say, it's worth a go.

Any suggestions on how I can increase its chances? 

-Should I be dosing? Have EI pre-mix and some ADA brighty 2 and K lying around
- Have considered adding Excel but worried it'll melt my Pellia. Anyone suggest a safe amount? Will also melt the egeria

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


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## Stu Worrall (10 Jun 2011)

*Re: Now Lo-Tech nano - now up and running with photos*



			
				hotweldfire said:
			
		

> Thanks Stu. I agree with you both about the HC but, as you say, it's worth a go.
> 
> Any suggestions on how I can increase its chances?
> 
> ...



Im trying to work out how best to approach your tank!  Your doing EI which requires 50% water changes every week but wanting to go low tech which prefers minimal water changes  

Im not sure if the nutrasoil releases ammonia like aquasoil does as ive not used it before.  If it does then youll be looking to do daily or every other day water changes in the first couple of weeks to remove the ammonia spike.  Im doing the same on my nano at the moment.

Re the dosing I start at day 1. The HC loves brighty K (or potasium carbonate) so yes i would use it.  It also loves co2 and liquid carbon but unfortunately the liquid will harm your pelia (ive previously killed some with easycarbo).

If you cant get hold of a cheap gas co2 solution which would balance the system then I would see how the HC goes for now.  If it fails, buy some moss and try and run it as a low tech.  Hopefully someone with more knowledge than me like Ceg will be along to tell you what you actually need to do rather than my ramblings! 

by the way, from page 1 SWMBO means - She Who Must Be Obeyed!  Relevant for a lot of people in the hobby including me


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## hotweldfire (10 Jun 2011)

*Re: Now Lo-Tech nano - now up and running with photos*



			
				stuworrall said:
			
		

> Im trying to work out how best to approach your tank!  Your doing EI which requires 50% water changes every week but wanting to go low tech which prefers minimal water changes



Sorry, I know I'm confusing everyone by saying I'm doing a low tech setup and then laying it out like a high tech one, then asking questions about using high-tech methods  :? 

I'm not thinking about any of these methods long-term, just considering them in the short term to give the plants a leg up whilst the tank stabilises. I'm still planning on not doing any water changes if possible so wasn't planning to use EI method of dosing, just using the EI pre-mix I have at a minimal level. In the same sort of way Tom suggests in his version of the Walstad method. So, long term, just adding a small of amount of ferts once a week. 

I don't think I need to do this as the nutrasoil should provide what the plants need. However, I may start using the green brighty step 2 and K daily to help the HC out. Then wean the tank of it so I'm only dosing once a week. That shouldn't necessitate water changes, right?  



			
				stuworrall said:
			
		

> Im not sure if the nutrasoil releases ammonia like aquasoil does as ive not used it before.  If it does then youll be looking to do daily or every other day water changes in the first couple of weeks to remove the ammonia spike.  Im doing the same on my nano at the moment.



Yep, definitely does, says so on the box. Not planning to do water changes and hoping (semi-) mature filter and lots of ammonia sponge plants will deal with the spike.  Probably  I know.



			
				stuworrall said:
			
		

> Re the dosing I start at day 1. The HC loves brighty K (or potasium carbonate) so yes i would use it.  It also loves co2 and liquid carbon but unfortunately the liquid will harm your pelia (ive previously killed some with easycarbo).



Short term use of easycarbo/excel would probably be what might save the HC from annihilation but I care more about the pellia because it's in between the rocks. Saying that I have been using Excel in my main tank at rec daily dose once or twice a week applied directly to algae. The pelia has been growing in that tank. So maybe very low levels, e.g. half rec daily dose a day, might be OK? Would that do the HC any favours though?


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## hotweldfire (10 Jun 2011)

*Re: Now Lo-Tech nano - now up and running with photos*

Actually just found this thread:

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=12955&p=136106&hilit=coral+pellia#p136106

Stu, were you using rec dose when you killed your pellia or over dosing in order to kill algae?


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## hotweldfire (11 Jun 2011)

*Re: Now Lo-Tech nano - now up and running with photos*

NeilW has kindly confirmed he dosed at 0.4ml in his 17l with no ill effects to the coral pellia so have decided to risk it. From today am dosing at 0.6ml daily. Am also adding 1ml green brighty step 2 and 1ml brighty k.

Test kit results today (for what they're worth   )

NH4 - 0.8
NO2 - 2
NO3 - 40
PH - 6.9
GH - 4.48
KH - <1
PO4 - <0.1
Fe - <0.1

Slightly kicking myself for not testing on day 1. Water appears to be surprisingly soft and did expect higher ammonia and lower nitrite after only 3 days. Maybe it's cycling faster than I thought.


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## Stu Worrall (11 Jun 2011)

*Re: Now Lo-Tech nano - now up and running with photos*

sorry, i missed your reply.  Yup with the easycarbo in mine i tend to not hold back with it so was most probably overdosing.  If youve seen it was ok in your other tank at the levels you were dosing then it sounds fine.


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## hotweldfire (12 Jun 2011)

*Re: Now Lo-Tech nano - now up and running with photos*



			
				stuworrall said:
			
		

> sorry, i missed your reply.  Yup with the easycarbo in mine i tend to not hold back with it so was most probably overdosing.  If youve seen it was ok in your other tank at the levels you were dosing then it sounds fine.



No worries mate.

OK, have filled in the back with what was left of my 5l nutrasoil tub. Jammed in a couple of pieces of large redmoor which I'm not too happy with and also added some smaller pieces hanging over the rock which I'm more happy with.

The egeria that I put in a few days ago was in a bit of a sorry state and had totally disintegrated by today. Replaced it with much healthier stuff and rearranged plants a bit. Also dropped small bits of stone I had left over on to the plateau. I think I'll tie some fissidens to the overhang wood at some point and anubias petite to the little stone. Pics as of tonight:

















Comments and critiques very welcome.


----------



## Muel (13 Jun 2011)

*Re: Now Lo-Tech nano - now up and running with photos*

Looking nice. I'll be redoing my 25L some point when I move house in a couple of months. Got some pagoda rock outside just lying around so may well have to have a crack using it for some sort of plateu like what you've gone for since it looks nice and effective. Hows the HC doing?


----------



## hotweldfire (13 Jun 2011)

*Re: Now Lo-Tech nano - now up and running with photos*

Thanks. Getting the plateau wasn't too easy as it was quite hard to get the pieces to fit together without big gaps. Had to plug the spaces with little shards and chunks I got when breaking it up. Hopefully the pellia will cover those up when it grows out.

Bit of melt on the HC but clinging on for now, doing better than I hoped. That's the least of my worries though. The egeria I put in there originally (photo above has replacement) completely disintegrated and is now littering the tank and nestling in amongst the HC. Got as much out as I could but got an algae bloom on the way no doubt.


----------



## hotweldfire (15 Jun 2011)

*Re: Now Lo-Tech nano - now up and running with photos*

Today's test results (with the usual pinch of salt, especially the nitrate):

NH4 - 0.2
NO2 - >3
NO3 - >100
PH - 7.5
GH - 5.6
KH - 1.1

Looks like it's cycling pretty fast.

The mass of disintegrating egeria hasn't caused the algae bloom I feared yet. I have cleaned out the filter to be sure. However, the tank appears to be host to a thriving community of micro-organisms. Quite a lot of small white nematodes, some small white things skitting about over the glass that I reckon are copepods. Also, weird little pods attached to the glass by hair like threads. Don't know what those are. First fish/shrimp to get in here are going to have a feast.

HC is, as feared, slowly melting. Hardly any uprooted yet though so there may be hope.


----------



## bigmatt (16 Jun 2011)

*Re: Now Lo-Tech nano - now up and running with photos*

Nematodes sound like planaria - bit of a pest.  AE do a treatment for them which i'm going to try in y 60cm as they're a royal pain!
Be a bit wary of cleaning out your filter too much - this in itself can cause algal bloom if you're too vigorous with the cleaning!
Glad it's going well - and the HC is holding its own!
Matt


----------



## hotweldfire (16 Jun 2011)

*Re: Now Lo-Tech nano - now up and running with photos*

Yep, could well be planaria, too small to tell yet. Have had them in the main tank and, TBH, won't be too fussed if they are. They do pop up from time to time but they've never stuck around for very long. Some reckon they're a danger to shrimp but I've never had that experience. In this tank I expect their presence is down to the melting egeria and no competition. If they don't disappear soon I've got some panacur dewormer liquid suspension that I've used before to take out intestinal nematodes - pretty effective on these guys too. If you want Matt I can dig out the link I have for dosing it.

I was pretty reluctant to touch the filter but glad I did - it was choked with egeria gunk. Will try to leave it well alone for as long as possible.

Cheers
Sajid


----------



## hotweldfire (22 Jun 2011)

*Re: Now Lo-Tech nano - now up and running with photos*

Have made a few minor changes today






Swapped out some of the redmoor and added some thinner twigs. Second batch of egeria (which was also melted quite badly) has gone and in it's place is some _Heteranthera zosterifolia_ and some _Lindernia rotundifolia 'variegated'_. Forgot to mention I had added some _Didiplis diandra _last week (probably even more ambitious than HC but doing ok).

Talking of which, as feared, HC is melting badly:






but hanging on near the front where there is most light:






I've pulled out the_ H. Angustifolia_ from the back left as it was blocking out too much light and tucked the frogbit behind the spraybar.

Did some tests this morning and no ammonia but nitrite and nitrate off the charts. Cycling OK I guess.

Fair bit of algae on the glass but not quite sure what. Also, much respect to the common pond snail which is thriving in these toxic conditions (although only a couple of them):






Right hard little bugger.

Worms appear to have vanished though.


----------



## hotweldfire (24 Jun 2011)

*Re: Now Lo-Tech nano - now up and running with photos*

Right, HC has pretty much given up the ghost now so am going to follow Nayr's advice and go for a moss carpet. Have a big pile of xmas moss sitting in a glass tray on a window sill that I'll use.

Anyone know where I can pick up some slate chips from? Tried my local homebase, which has a big garden centre, but they don't stock them.


----------



## Mrmikey (25 Jun 2011)

*Now Lo-Tech nano - now up and running with photos*

Must have missed this journal but it's a good read, shame your hc has melted, it happened to me then it got loads of algae so I just chucked it. Definatly do a moss carpet, so much easier, and if kept well trimmed can look just as cool I think. If u do get some shrimp on there they will love it to. 
Where did you get your mini Xmas from? I need to carpet my 60l and need loads of moss, I like the sound of mini moss


----------



## hotweldfire (26 Jun 2011)

*Re: Now Lo-Tech nano - now up and running with photos*

Thanks. Am thinking a bit more patience might be worthwhile. Whilst most of it is now brown mush there looks like some possible new growth near the front. Couple more weeks should tell.

Not mini-xmas, I'm afraid, just the normal stuff. The LFS I bought it from (Living Waters, South London) do do the mini version but haven't had it in stock for some time. The only other place I've seen it is here:

http://www.aquaticplants.eu.com/acatalog/MONTHLY_SPECIAL_OFFERS.html

Someone on here (sorry, can't remember who) has used mini spiky moss too. 

More bad news on the tank. I now have hydra. These are definitely not good for shrimp so may have to dust down that panacur after all.


----------



## hotweldfire (29 Jun 2011)

*Re: Now Lo-Tech nano - now up and running with photos*

Test readings today:

NH4 - 0
NO2 - 0
NO3 - 50
PH - 7
KH - 1
GH - 9

Tank is cycled. Something's pushing the GH up hard, I assume it's the pagoda stone. Not affecting the KH though so good shrimp breeding parameters. Of course all these numbers may be nonsense   

Still, I trust them enough to believe the tank is cycled. So I could start adding livestock.

I was planning to start with 3 of the 4 red nosed shrimp currently in my main tank. However

1) tank is overrun with hydra. There are also still some planaria in there, not many though
2) the shrimp will rip to shreds what's left of my HC. Maybe it's beyond saving but feel I should give it a bit longer in case of miraculous recovery.

May hold out another week then dose panacur, rip out HC (assuming no recovery), do big water change, replace HC with moss carpet, put in shrimp.

Sound like a sensible plan?


----------



## Sentral (29 Jun 2011)

*Re: Now Lo-Tech nano - now up and running with photos*

First post but I've been reading a variety of threads on here for a few weeks!

Great read indeed, I've recently acquired a 10 litre tank and it's currently cycling, waiting for me to chose plants and scape it! I plan on using a cheap a Co2 system along with relatively easy plants to grow, having read you're progress I'm pretty confident that xmas moss (or similar) is the way to go for the carpet!

Looking forward to your progress


----------



## hotweldfire (6 Jul 2011)

*Re: Now Lo-Tech nano - now up and running with photos*

Thanks very much Sentral, honoured to have your first post on my journal   

Just dosed panacur into the tank. Will see what the infestation looks like by the weekend and if good will do first water change and add some shrimp.

All but 2 stems of the zosty is melting. Other stems are surviving though. All hope for the HC is now lost so will replace with a moss carpet, probably this weekend.


----------



## hotweldfire (11 Jul 2011)

*Re: Now Lo-Tech nano - now up and running with photos*

So, dosed panacur on Wednesday. Knocked out the hydra and most of the planaria. Saw some of the latter on Friday but not yesterday. Most snails seemed to have survived.

Yesterday did a serious clean of the tank. Scraped all of the dead critters off the glass, cleaned the rock, pulled out dying plants etc. This is what was left of my HC experiment:







Didn't have time to replace with moss but might manage that today or tomorrow. Was going to go for anchor moss but I picked up a grid of it yesterday and the amount isn't nearly enough. Will go for xmas as a temporary measure.

Did a big water change and drip acclimatised 13 chili rasbora and 2 red nosed shrimp. This is what the tank looked like last night:






This is what I found next to it this morning:








This is with the glass cover on too. The other one's still in there but does not look happy. Will put it back in the main tank. Fish seem fine though. Maybe the water's too soft for these shrimp? Maybe an amano might be ok?


----------



## Radik (11 Jul 2011)

*Re: Now Lo-Tech nano - now up and running with photos*

No osmocotte left in tank? No ammonia? Maybe some residue from planaraia treatment? Shrimps are ultra sensitive. You will learn through mistakes no worries.. You basically redone tank from scratch you should wait before putting shrimps in and do few smaller water changes.


----------



## hotweldfire (12 Jul 2011)

*Re: Now Lo-Tech nano - now up and running with photos*

I'm not so sure Radik. You're right, shrimps are sensitive but so are boraras IME. The fish are looking happier than they have in months. Even a particularly sick one that was being blown around by the current, twitching, in my main tank is now swimming about and feeding.

The other shrimp settled down after an hour or two so I left it in. Is happily grazing now. Should have said - I only pulled out the two rocks at the front to clean. Did a big water change because I was worried about the effect of pulling up the melted HC on water quality. Used re-con RO for the change.

There was no sign of ammonia and nitrite yesterday. Osmocote is in there but not leaching into the water column it seems. I don't think the panacur is an issue. Have used it in tanks with very sensitive shrimp before with no ill effects.


----------



## hotweldfire (16 Jul 2011)

*Re: Now Lo-Tech nano - now up and running with photos*

Have just added 3 CBS (one of them looks S grade   ) and the final stray chili from my main tank. Have also just stupidly over fed rather a lot so am going to have to do a water change tomorrow morning.


----------



## NeilW (17 Jul 2011)

*Re: Now Lo-Tech nano - now up and running with photos*

In my experience Red Nose Shrimp were really difficult to keep. I remember finding somewhere that they actually live in estuaries so maybe they are more suited to brakish water? A shame though as they are such a nice looking shrimp


----------



## hotweldfire (21 Jul 2011)

*Re: Now Lo-Tech nano - now up and running with photos*

Paulo told me recently that he thinks they tend not to survive more than 3 months in FW tanks. Don't think I'll be buying any more.

Don't know if people have been following the P@H nano thread 

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=16036&start=60

but it emerges that the filter in the tank eats fish and shrimp. Have lost at least 3 chilis to it, including one death watched live. Also the post above was wrong - I had 4 CBS, 1 A & 3 S grade. After I found the final one dead today I decided enough was enough. 

Went to LFS planning to get a Dennerle nano clean. They were out of stock so I bought a Sera fil 60. Very nice internal. Two compartments, one of which I've put the sponge from the old filter in, the other I've filled with siporax. 

Bad move. Firstly it's too big. Won't fit into the right hand corner without being buried deep into the substrate. Secondly it's a 340 lph with no flow adjustment. I set the spray bar up to flow against the back glass to break the flow. When I turned it on the water started gushing up the back glass threatening to flow over and the chilis started getting knocked about all over the place.

Jammed the canister full of bits of spare sponge. Made no difference. In a desperate last attempt I jammed the spraybar itself with sponge (I kid you not) and this has done the trick. Flow still strong but manageable. Hopefully this won't blow the thing up.

Also rescaped a wee bit. Pulled out a lot of the dying stems and planted a bunch of very healthy stuff which is still being identified:

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16822

Also broke up the wood and rearranged it closer together. Couple of pics:











The very badly tied left hand moss mesh is going to be replaced with a smaller one of something uber rare from my main tank.

Comments, critiques and sympathy welcome


----------



## hotweldfire (27 Jul 2011)

*Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre*

This thing is turning into the shrimp tank of the death.

I know I've lost at least a couple to the murderous filter and assumed the subsequent poisoning of the water did for the rest. However, I put two in there at the weekend and found one of them dead yesterday morning. The other one looks very lethargic, barely moving. Did some tests and everything looks fine. Phosphate and nitrate levels a bit high but fine. 

Except the PH. Don't know exactly what the reading is as I use a narrow range test that only goes up to 7.6, but it was high. 8.5, maybe 9. Did an immediate 50% RO change and PH came down to 6.7.

What's causing this? Thought maybe the pagoda rock which isn't inert but the tank water is soft. KH at 1 GH at 5. Could it be my ferts? Instead of ADA stuff I was using I've been dropping in 10ml of EI mix once a week. Reckon I should switch to TPN+?


----------



## cheebs (27 Jul 2011)

*Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre*

 such a shame.


----------



## Radik (27 Jul 2011)

*Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre*

Do the test. Put pagoda to RO water and if you have TDS meter (you should if you have RO unit) watch TDS increase over time. I did that with mini landscape stone and he gave me +30TDS per day and that's why I hate using them in shrimp tanks. You need inert stones also if you have RO you can remove ADA and go inert substrate. You will get stable conditions this way.

For low tech you do not need ADA really, I have just gravel and use fert once a week now next to window getting daylight (no sun) and it is fine with 3 pregnant CRS and recently 1 pregnant Sakura. I mix RO with Tap 50/50 to get to KH4 and my PH is still around 7.6 but CRS are not bothered.

If you want to keep shrimps without losses make it simple as possible then you can experiment with high tech later.

Regarding filter I am using Dennerle nano filter which is  small, good and safe.


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## hotweldfire (29 Jul 2011)

*Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre*

Radik, you're probably right. I have been eyeing that rock with suspicion for some time. As you know Erdal has the same stuff in his nanos and he has problems. Whilst overstocking is the likely candidate in that situation I don't think the rock can be ruled out. Don't have a TDS meter but may attempt to do what you suggest and use my other test kits.

In the meantime PH is holding fairly steady - was 6.9 yesterday. Will test regularly. Remaining shrimp seems ok. Am switching to TPN+ too. Oh, and have put the Dennerle nano filter in yesterday.


----------



## hotweldfire (29 Jul 2011)

*Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre*

So, I came home about an hour ago to this:














Don't know if you can make it out in the pics but basically all fish dead. Proper horror movie scene. The one at the front is still breathing but not doing much else. Have left it in there but, barring a miracle, will be coming out shortly too.

The shrimp seems fine. In fact better than ever.

First thing I did was go down the shops, buy a pack of fags and light up (gave up a couple of days ago so a bit of a setback there). Next thing I did was put some water in some vials and did a 70% remin RO water change.

Going to do some tests now. Already did the PH which is where it should be - 6.9.

The only thing I did yesterday was put in the the Dennerle nano filter. Obviously using the same filter media from previous filter (sponge that came with the P@H one and some siropax that had been running in the sera one). This naturally involved taking out the white sponge and plastic surround that was in the filter. 

Anyone who has this filter know what I've done? Have I screwed the flow so nothing is going through the media?

Someone posted a thread a few months ago entitled "About ready to give up" or something like that. At the time I have to admit I scoffed. Now I know how they feel.


----------



## hotweldfire (29 Jul 2011)

*Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre*

Test results
NH4 - 0
NO2 - 0
NO3 - 50ish
PH - 6.9
KH - 1.1
GH - 5.6

So no ammonia readings, despite the fact that there may have been dead fish in there all day. Now I know that test kits aren't very reliable but this JBL ammonia kit has always picked up something when I've suspecting an ammonia spike might have occurred. 

So it may be that most of the fish died in the last few hours and thus hadn't polluted the water. Which would also suggest it's not an issue with the filter not doing it's job.

So what is going on?

 :? 

Help please.


----------



## Radik (29 Jul 2011)

*Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre*

Nitrates at high ppm can be also toxic to fish and shrimps and you do not have enough plants to absorb them fast. Maybe you are at peak of nitrogen cycle and ammonia is converting fast to nitrites and then nitrates + you added tpn+. So maybe half of what you measured would be Ok around 20-25ppm. Do


----------



## gregadc (30 Jul 2011)

*Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre*

...One of this ones...

Matter complicating as all shrimps are fine( ? )

Was filter creating any water movement when you came back?
Definitely something worth resolving for the future reference...


----------



## hotweldfire (30 Jul 2011)

*Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre*

Thanks both.

No sign of the shrimp since I last posted so doesn't look good there.

Greg, almost certain now it's not an issue with the filter. Was on low but definitely producing a flow. In addition, no ammonia or nitrite readings. There is a small issue with it, by the way. When you remove the media it comes with and replace with something like siropax you lose the plastic guard that stops something getting to the impellor. A shimp would have to do a lot of wriggling around to get through but it is conceivable. I think I'm going to put a layer of sponge underneath the impellor just to be safe.

Radik, the nitrate levels in here have been bothering me a bit from the start. They've always been high since cycling and never really come down. This is despite not adding any N for most of the tank's life. I only started doing that a couple of weeks ago.

To be clear I haven't started using the TPN+ yet, was going to start on Sunday. Last ferts I added were 10ml EI mix about a week ago. So whilst nitrate levels could be a problem I don't know if the background level would cause such a sudden wipeout of all inhabitants. Unless it's interacting with something else.

Darren suggests either something bacterial or PH shock as an explanation for such sudden death. Can't see where anything bacterial could have come from. However, given I picked up high PH early in the week could it be a delayed reaction to that?


----------



## dw1305 (30 Jul 2011)

*Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre*

Hi all,
I'm sorry really horrible when this happens, for me it is definitely a water quality issue, the problem is trying to find which parameter. I'm not a great believer in "pH shock" as a cause of death, if you tipped 1/2 a bottle of NaOH or HCl into the tank it would certainly kill the fish, but I'm not convinced that relatively slow changes in pH cause fish death. 

My suspicion would be that it is an ammonia issue, despite the test kit readings. This could be 1 of 3 things:

1. De-oxygenation, where the NH3 conversion has stripped the O2 from the water. However if your deaths happened why the lights are on? this is unlikely.

2. The rise in pH converted enough NH4+ to NH3 to kill the fish.

3. Levels of NH3 rose high enough to cause gill damage and death.

I'd be tempted to do a complete water change, add a few stems/floaters for the while (I usually use _Ceratophyllum_ or _Limnobium_) and then wait for a couple of weeks before adding any more livestock. I'm pretty sure once the tank has stabilised you won't have any more problems.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Radik (30 Jul 2011)

*Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre*

So as Darrel said do full water change and then you can test water and again over time do not add any stock yet. If that's amazonia substrate you can still go through cycle sometimes it takes longer.

No osmocotte there added?


----------



## Ian Holdich (30 Jul 2011)

*Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre*

just had a read back through this thread...why Miracle grow? Personally i wouldn't have bothered with it...it contains dye's, and the make up isn't really good for aquatic life. Isn't the chlorine in Miracle grow sky high as well? More than a dose of de chlor could probably handle?


----------



## hotweldfire (31 Jul 2011)

*Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre*

So the shrimp reappeared. More surprisingly a surviving rasbora showed up today too. Both look less than great but alive at least.

Test results today indicate stable PH, no ammonia or nitrite and again nitrate at at least 50ppm.



			
				Radik said:
			
		

> Nitrates at high ppm can be also toxic to fish and shrimps and you do not have enough plants to absorb them fast. Maybe you are at peak of nitrogen cycle and ammonia is converting fast to nitrites and then nitrates + you added tpn+. So maybe half of what you measured would be Ok around 20-25ppm. Do



I'm starting to suspect there's something in what you say. TBH I'm a skeptic about the effects of nitrate on fish/shrimp health. I'm also a skeptic about the reliability of nitrate test kits. But I have been picking up the same sort of reading for the last few weeks, ever since the tank properly cycled (assuming it ever did). Given I did a massive RO water change 2 days ago why am I getting a nitrate reading like this?



			
				dw1305 said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> 1. De-oxygenation, where the NH3 conversion has stripped the O2 from the water. However if your deaths happened why the lights are on? this is unlikely.



Lights came on at 5pm I got home at 6pm. Deaths could well have happened when lights were off. Or am I misunderstanding?



			
				dw1305 said:
			
		

> 2. The rise in pH converted enough NH4+ to NH3 to kill the fish.
> 
> 3. Levels of NH3 rose high enough to cause gill damage and death.
> 
> ...



This seems more and more likely but why the instability. Tank appeared to have cycled weeks ago. Yes, I have messed with the filter recently but still using the same media. Also, the PH swing. What's that? Has to be the rock right?



			
				Radik said:
			
		

> No osmocotte there added?





			
				ianho said:
			
		

> just had a read back through this thread...why Miracle grow? Personally i wouldn't have bothered with it...it contains dye's, and the make up isn't really good for aquatic life. Isn't the chlorine in Miracle grow sky high as well? More than a dose of de chlor could probably handle?



I know it's not entirely uncontroversial but I do think this is barking up the wrong tree. Whilst there are examples to the contrary there are enough people on here who've used it without any adverse consequences.

Hmm, although whilst typing I am starting to wonder. 

Might a steady small dose of ammonia be converted through NO2 to NO3 so fast by a mature filter that I wouldn't pick it up with test kits? but result in stress killing my livestock, especially when combined with PH swings?


----------



## Radik (1 Aug 2011)

*Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre*

I used same osmocotte as you and I had constant ammonia leeching.. remember this stuff works for 6 months so you can have it but not detectable to test kit. I then stripped down tank and picked each granule one by one. This could also explain your nitrates at 50ppm as whole nitrifiing process is trying to work at max. But if you overdosed you might never have 0 ammonia 0 nitrites for some time. I tried to fix that by overdosing seachem prime so no livestock died but after month I just removed granules.


----------



## GHNelson (1 Aug 2011)

*Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre*

Hi
I did a massive RO water change 2 days ago.
Can you clarify.
What ratio did you use if any :?: 
How did you perform this action :?:
I have my suspicions it could be oxygen starvation.
I would stop using RO for the moment and use good old tap water for water changes. 
hoggie


----------



## hotweldfire (1 Aug 2011)

*Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre*

Radik, I'm starting to come round to your point of view. Perhaps I should have paid more attention to your warning at the beginning.



			
				hogan53 said:
			
		

> Hi
> I did a massive RO water change 2 days ago.
> Can you clarify.
> What ratio did you use if any :?:
> ...



No ratio, pure RO with a tiny bit of remineraliser. About 70% of tank volume. Oxygen starvation from RO?

By the way last shrimp found dead this morning. Don't hold out much hope for the last chili given how it was swimming last night.

Despite the hassle, am minded to rip this down. Get rid of the osmocote, get rid of the rock. Never been that happy with the rock anyway. Could never get it to sit right.


----------



## GHNelson (1 Aug 2011)

*Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre*

Hi hotweldfire
I think that's where your problem has arisen.
I'm not a expert on RO application...but I think it also strips other valuable components from tap-water.
Electrolytes come to mind.
I suppose its like asking you to scale the Himalayas with out any oxygen and periodic acclimatisation its not going to happen.
I would remove as much water as possible and slowly add tap-water over a 5/6 hour period.
hoggie


----------



## Tom (1 Aug 2011)

*Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre*

Is there any reason behind you using RO?


----------



## madlan (1 Aug 2011)

*Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre*

I doubt it would be oxygen starvation. Reverse osmosis water has an increased oxygen concentration, as O2 has a small enough molecule to cross the membrane.

Do you aerate\heat the water before changing? 

I would put my money on a massive pH swing due to no buffering. (What's the KH value of the water?)
I use osmocote (quite a large amount compared to most) with no negative effects just lots of plant growth! I have sensitive fish too – wild cardinals\angels\rams\hatchets.


----------



## GHNelson (1 Aug 2011)

*Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre*

Hi
I doubt it would be oxygen starvation.
I think your wrong first it depends on the membrane being used.
Also I think it could be a combination of low oxygen a large Ph swing and mineral depletion.
Have a read at this article :arrow: Once collected the water MUST be aerated for 24 hours to replace the oxygen removed by the Ro unit. For freshwater keepers it will also need reconstruction, this can be done in a number of ways.
You can mix it with a percentage of prepared tap water passed through a tap water filter (see guide), the quantities of which will differ depending on what type of water you will need for your aquarium(s) and the hardness in your tap water, so experimentation will be required.
You can also add a number of powders and buffers into the water to give it back the GH and KH lost in the Ro process. There are many of these on the market and your aquatic dealer will be able to advise you.
An electronic TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) meter and pH meter will come in very useful indeed for the preparation. Ordinary liquid or tablet kits will be fine but an electronic pH meter is much quicker and the TDS meter is a must.Once installed you will have to collect the water for preparation. 

The water will be very unstable and gladly soak up any contaminants in plastics, so buckets used for wine making and the like are recommended. An Ro unit is excellent for removing any contaminants in the water as discussed, however it is also very good a removing all the good things such as Minerals, Salts and Oxygen.
The pH will be lowered by about 1 to 1.5 and the water will be distilled and lifeless. Needless to say that your fish won’t live for very long in it, however freshwater fishkeepers will have very soft water to reconstruct as they wish for breeding or maintaining purposes. Marine keepers have clean water to mix with salt for their systems.
Taken from this page :arrow: http://www.fishcrazy.co.uk/Guides/View_ ... -and-Units.
Regards
hoggie


----------



## dw1305 (1 Aug 2011)

*Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre*

Hi all,
I wouldn't worry too much about the osmocote, I think if you have a larger plant mass and leave the tank it will stabilise. If you want to keep black water fish then I would remove the "Pagoda Rock", if you aren't I'd leave it in.


> Deaths could well have happened when lights were off. Or am I misunderstanding?


 That would be my suspicion that whilst the lights were off the O2 levels fell low enough to kill the stock. This is probably because the conversion of the ammonia (from the shrimp/fish/substrate/osmocote) to nitrite and nitrate stripped enough O2 out of the water. Once the light were on, oxygen was evolved by photosynthesis, and O2 levels would rise above lethal/sub lethal levels. 


> I would put my money on a massive pH swing due to no buffering. (What's the KH value of the water?)


I'll try and explain why I'm not convinced about pH swings at low carbonate buffering (when using RO) are actually that damaging to fish. In this case I also think that the "Pagoda Rock" would be adding carbonate/bi-carbonate (dKH) and calcium (dGH) ions. 

The pH is a measure of the* ratio of OH- ions and H+ ions* (H + H + O = H2O) (or other acids and bases expressed as OH- and H+ ions). 

The easiest way to think of it is that *acids are H+ donors and add H+ ions*, and* alkalis are H+ acceptors and remove H+ ions*.

At the ratio of 1:1 H+:OH- the pH is pH7 (really it should be pH-7 (10-7 H+ ions and 10-7 OH- ions)), more H+ ions are added and pH falls (more H+ added, at pH6 H+ = 10-6).

What the pH doesn't tell you is how much of the OH- and H+ ions there are, in the case of RO there is no reserve of alkaline ions, they are all in solution. As soon as the ratio changes in favour of the H+ ions, there are no alkaline ions in reserve and the ratio can rapidly rise to pH5 (10-5) etc. The pH can swing wildly at low dKH, but this is not the same thing as the pH fluctuating wildly in buffered systems, it is because pH is an inappropriate way of measuring acidity/alkalinity in very dilute solutions. The actual change in the amount of OH- and H+ ions is very small, it is *the ratio that has changed and that we have measured as pH*. A very dilute solution of a weak acid can have a very low pH, but it won't effect the fish in the same way that a low pH in a buffered system would, because in the buffered system the change in the number of ions would be several orders of magnitude larger.

I hope that makes sense, as I know from other forums I am cr*p at trying to explain pH and buffering.

cheers Darrel


----------



## hotweldfire (2 Aug 2011)

*Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre*

People, thanks all for your advice. Have to say I'm getting confused so will try to write a synopsis.

Possible causes appear to be

- osmocote
- PH fluctuations
- oxygen depletion

Darrel, I'm just about following your explanation above. You're saying that it's the amount of H+ or OH- ions that matter to fish and the PH doesn't measure this. It measures their ratio to each other. Are you saying that in a buffered system a change in PH is actually a much larger change in the amount of ions than in a non-buffered system? Therefore a change in PH represents something less harmful in a non-buffered system? KH is at 1, btw, has been since setup. Never changed.

TBH I don't know how big the PH fluctuation earlier that week that I picked up was. This is because I hadn't measured PH for some time having assumed it had stabilised (and because I got lazy about recording my measurements). Last record I have of the ph is 10th July where I was picking up 6.9. That's just over two weeks before I picked up the massive PH reading off the scale of my test kit. So it could have been a gradual shift up over two weeks or it could have more recent and massive.

Your suspicion is that the activity of the filter converting NH4->NO2->NO3 stripped the oxygen out of the water when lights were off because the plants weren't producing oxygen. Why on earth would that happen though? 

Why would the bacteria have to be working so hard to nitrify? New filter (but with same filter media)? Let's remember this tank has been running for 2 months now. Or is it osmocote constantly adding ammonia to the system hence the small filter bacteria colony working overtime to convert it? The only other explanation is a spiral of death. One started by my killer filter but once established hard to stop. I had lost a shrimp on the Tuesday (ammonia spike even if followed by big water change). On Friday lost all fish.

Re: the RO issue. Firstly, the reason I'm using it is to keep the water soft and acidic for blackwater fish and fairly high grade shrimp. In terms of oxygen level. Even if an RO filter does strip the oxygen out of the water (I don't have one, I buy the stuff) it will sit for at least a couple of days if not a week before use.

Admittedly this will be in a closed container but then will be poured in to a bucket (lots of splashing) and then over my hand into the top of the tank water (more splashing). In addition the spraybar is directed and positioned to break the surface of the water to enable gas exchange primarily for co2 exchange (don't go there - different debate on a different thread http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=16243) but this would work for o2 right? I also add remineraliser to it for calcium and magenesium. By doing so I appear to have achieved the parameters the far east breeders like to keep their shrimp tanks at - PH in the 6-7 range, KH at 1, GH at around 4-6.

Except I've created the shrimp tank of death.

The consistently high nitrate readings would indicate a big big clue. Suggests to me that there is a source of ammonia in here that is being worked on by the filter colony all the time. This might be coming from shrimp/fish deaths or might be coming from osmocote. Or might it be coming from the nutrasoil? Surely it should have stopped leaching by now?

That is if the nitrate test kits could be relied upon. They are notoriously unreliable. Mine seems reliable as it indicates the same level for two months. This doesn't mean it is accurate.

A short timeline recap may be helpful

Tank running for 2 months now
Seemed to cycle in 21 days (no NH4 or NO2 readings, none since then either)
Subsequent deaths due to (mainly at least) killer P@H filter
Sunday 17th stopped using ADA ferts, swapped to 10ml EI solution once a week
Thursday 21st replaced killer with Sera filter, replanted, water change
Sunday 24th 10ml EI mix
Tuesday 26th, very high PH, dead shrimp, water change
Thursday 28th, installed Dennerle nano filter, very small water change (top up really)
Friday 29th - all fish dead


----------



## dw1305 (2 Aug 2011)

*Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre*

Hi all,


> Darrel,........ You're saying that it's the amount of H+ or OH- ions that matter to fish and the PH doesn't measure this. It measures their ratio to each other.


 Yes.


> Are you saying that in a buffered system a change in PH is actually a much larger change in the amount of ions than in a non-buffered system?


 Yes.


> Therefore a change in PH represents something less harmful in a non-buffered system?


 Yes.


> Your suspicion is that the activity of the filter converting NH4->NO2->NO3 stripped the oxygen out of the water when lights were off because the plants weren't producing oxygen. Why on earth would that happen though? ......


Could be a number of reasons - warmer water?, less flow speed, water change removed DOC which was acting as a chelating agent etc and we may never know.


> Or is it osmocote constantly adding ammonia to the system hence the small filter bacteria colony working overtime to convert it? The only other explanation is a spiral of death. One started by my killer filter but once established hard to stop. I had lost a shrimp on the Tuesday (ammonia spike even if followed by big water change). On Friday lost all fish.


 Could be either of these options.


> The consistently high nitrate readings would indicate a big big clue. Suggests to me that there is a source of ammonia in here that is being worked on by the filter colony all the time. This might be coming from shrimp/fish deaths or might be coming from osmocote. Or might it be coming from the nutrasoil? Surely it should have stopped leaching by now?


 That was the thing that made me think it was an O2 issue, high nitrate would indicate high ammonia, unless you've added a lot of  KNO3 etc. 

I'm pretty sure if you replace the Pagoda Rock, and then leave the tank alone (add some more stems and/or floaters) for another month, or so, that it will stabilise. Personally I'd stop adding any ferts. for the while and only start again when the plants begin to grow paler green and growth slows. If you have a TDS meter, I'd dip it in every week and get a reading (should be reasonably consistent), if not I'd use the pH meter. I'd expect the pH also to remain much the same (you need to be consistent in the time of day when you do this, as you will have large diurnal pH swings). I'd probably also only top of evaporation for the while (with RO).

After the month I'd add a few cherry shrimps, and then assuming everything is OK, after that  your other shrimps.

cheers Darrel


----------



## hotweldfire (2 Aug 2011)

*Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre*

Very useful. Will pull out the pagoda and leave substrate, including osmocote, as is for now.

However, would rather not have a completely rock free tank. Anybody have recommendations for inert rock? How about dragon stone? Black lava rock? Have both of these knocking about. Don't have to add now but would like some rock in there eventually and don't want the same problem.

Also thinking about adding both purigen and an almond tea bag to the filter to help remove some of the ammonia and create mild blackwater conditions. Adding too many additional parameters at this stage?


----------



## dw1305 (3 Aug 2011)

*Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre*

Hi all,
Black lava rock should be fairly inert. You can use the hardness test otherwise. Any rock that is really hard won't add many solutes, even if it is carboniferous limestone etc. If you don't mind it being light in colour any rock which is mainly quartz (Granite, Flint) will also do.

I wouldn't worry about the ammonia level if all the stock have died, the plants will mop it up, so there is no need for purigen. I always have a few alder cones or leaves in the tank, so I don' see that the Indian Almond leaf will hurt. If you can keep the pH below pH7 most of the ammonia (NH3) will be as the much less toxic ammonium ion, NH4+.

I'd probably keep "gardening" to a minimum, just remove dead leaves.

cheers Darrel


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## hotweldfire (14 Aug 2011)

*Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre*

Thanks Darrel.



			
				Radik said:
			
		

> Do the test. Put pagoda to RO water and if you have TDS meter (you should if you have RO unit) watch TDS increase over time. I did that with mini landscape stone and he gave me +30TDS per day and that's why I hate using them in shrimp tanks. You need inert stones also if you have RO you can remove ADA and go inert substrate. You will get stable conditions this way.



Got a TDS meter a week ago. Tested both my tanks. Both read around 250. Tested them couple of days ago and both read around 275.  Main tank has had a full week of EI ferts go in. Nano has had nothing go in. Hmmm.

So did what you suggested. Put a spare piece of pagoda that I pulled out of the tank a few weeks ago in a glass of tap water.

Immediate reading of 25 (this is the RO reading).
12 hours later - 47
24 hour later - 57

Naturally the TDS won't be going up in the tank this fast as the proportion of rock to water is nowhere near as high (although there is the effect of acidic substrate to be taken into account). Still, not good. 

Have ripped out all the rock.


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## hotweldfire (12 Sep 2011)

*Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre*

Hello all, 

Sorry for the tardy update. Apologies for the images - phone camera.






Obviously the first thing you'll notice is that I've wimped out and injected co2. I promise this is temporary and the co2 levels are now very low as I'm weaning the tank off it.

I've effectively replaced the stone with three pieces of mopani wood. Left the stems pretty much as they were (except for the zosty which all died) and they're doing well. Added some hydrocotyle verticillata which is doing ok, despite being in the shade.

Also this crypt:





Green gecko. Absolutely love it. Arrived as just some roots with the leaves already trimmed off. Growing like a nutter. The wood behind it has fissidens fontanus growing on the lower part and a mystery moss (courtesy of Erdal again) growing on the upper part.






Third attempt at growing HC in this tank (masochist) but appears to be doing ok this time. This lot are from my main tank and it's growing - vertically rather than horizontally - but growing. Will trim and hopefully it will spread a bit more.






This is a new mini java fern I got in from the far east. Not doing so well, nor is it's compatriot, a mini windelov fern which is in my main tank. Very generous portion from the ebay seller but am starting to suspect it may have been grown emersed. Thinking of trimming it right back to the rhizome to see what happens. 

Also not at all sure about this largest piece of wood. Have a thinner piece in the garden that I may swap it for. If I keep it might go for coral pelia growing out of the gnarly little hollows and cracks. If I go for the thinner one might cover it in mini xmas moss.

Currently have 6 ember tetras in there dealing with the mayfly infestation I have. The last of the surviving mayfly appear to have emerged from the water tonight (pretty amazing to watch) but there's plenty of copepods and the like still in there. The tetras are very skittish but given room they come out to hunt and are very watchable. 

They'll likely be shifted to the main tank in a week or so. Might have another go at microrasbora or might go shrimp only. 

Thanks for looking.


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## hotweldfire (13 Mar 2012)

*Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre*

Quick update to precede another one when I get round to taking more photos.


Home nano end Feb by hotweldfire, on Flickr

This is a few weeks old. CO2 gone as is HC which was ripped out a few months ago to be replaced by parvula. However, I didn't like how it looked there so it has been replaced:


2012-2-2_20.48.44 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

With Elatine hydropiper

  :?   

Yep, probably doomed but it's doing so well in my main tank with no conscious intervention on my part I thought why not. If it takes I think it will look fantastic there. If it doesn't, well, I planted C. parva just behind it (hacked back to the root so you can't see it above) and I'll be perfectly happy with that as the final carpet in this tank.


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## JohnC (27 Mar 2012)

*Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre*



			
				hotweldfire said:
			
		

> Quick update to precede another one when I get round to taking more photos.
> 
> 
> Home nano end Feb by hotweldfire, on Flickr
> ...




This is starting to look lovely. I'm still sitting on my P@H cube but i've got an instant scape waiting to go in from my 10L dennerle.

Thanks for taking the time to post this all.

Best Regards,
John


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## hotweldfire (27 Mar 2012)

*Re: Lo-Tech nano - Filter Impeller Massacre*

Thanks John. Was about to give up on the hydropiper as getting quite a lot of melt. However, am now seeing new tiny leaves   This stuff is incredible. Am now certain it is different from what other people have been sold in the past as Elatine hydropiper. Will start a separate thread on it. What's interesting is that I can't get it to grow emersed.


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## hotweldfire (19 Aug 2012)

Did give up on the hydropiper in the end, was painfully slow. Gave up on the low tech as well, was painfully slow. Started on the easycarbo again and then ended up injecting. Also, inspired by a tank at ADC I decided to do a minor rescape. Deeply underrated is that Greg (more discounts please mate). This is how it looks at the mo:


19-8-12_1 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

Bit of a mess around the tank. The worst aspect of which is this:


19-8-12_3 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

I mean, really, what were TMC thinking about when they created this rail? Whilst the light unit itself is not classically beautiful or anything it isn't bad looking. The mount is disgusting. Why am I using it? Because the better half doesn't want screws jammed into her custom made book shelf above so I can mount it. Fair enough but it means, in addition the mount's ugliness, I'm stuck with its other stupid feature. The light is fixed on it and, on a 30cm cube, means it sits near the front of the tank. This means that all my stems at the back of the tank are growing almost horizontally. Sigh.

She is up for letting me punch a larger hole near the back of the shelf the tank sits on though which means I can move all the crap to the shelf below and hide it behind books. Including this:


19-8-12_8 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

Eden 501. Great little filter. Actually bought it for my 12l office desk tank but was way overpowered. I have two criticisms: firstly, flow is not adjustable which is easily remedied by the two 9mm eheim taps you can see. Secondly the nature of the attachment and sucker which holds it in place means the outlet sits too deep in the water for my liking. I want it at the back left corner pumping diagonally across the tank but because it sits so low this will flatten my stems. Have got some 9mm lily pipes on the way from HK but I don't think I can angle them so the outlet piece will probably have to sit where the current outlet is which is a shame. Not a disaster. Only thing I'm worried about is if it doesn't have the power to pump up from the shelf below.


19-8-12_2 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

At the back is myrophyllum, red and green, on the right is didiplis diandra. May need to replant the myrophyllum as the two types are mixed in a bit randomly at the moment. Grows like a nutter with co2.

Midground is some of the amano pearl grass (hemianthus sp??) that used to be at the back:


19-8-12_7 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

and some one-to-grow Ammania bonsai which is a lovely little mini bacopa like plant:


19-8-12_6 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

Piece of wood at the front has afro moss (courtesy of Living Waters, Croydon) growing on it as well as a few fissidens hitchhikers:


19-8-12_4 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

Rest of the foreground is Lileaopsis mauritiana:


19-8-12_5 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

Which I'm not that chuffed with. Very slow to fill out. May hack it back to the substrate a second time and see how it grows back. I might end up replacing with brasiliensis.

Fauna are currently a mixed batch (almost inevitably it seems) of Boraras brigittae and merah and 1 hisonotus (unknown sp). Shrimp are lots of sakura, that are getting moved to the main tank now it's been rescaped, and what's finally inspired a name for this tank. Caridina meridonalis, courtesy of Aquatic Design Centre, otherwise known as Larry shrimp:


19-8-12_9 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

Beautiful shrimp. According to ADC and Ed/Radik of Freshwater Shrimp these are wild. If so then they have the best colouration of a wild shrimp I've ever seen. They've not bred for me in this tank yet. I had a berried female when I kept them in my office nano but the pair of sparkling gouramis I had did for her. Nothing since I moved them here but hopefully when I pull all the sakura out they'll start reproducing.

The tank has a long way to go yet but I'm fairly happy with the layout and plant selection. Might move the column of wood forward a bit to thicken the stems at the back but that's about it. Now just need to wait for everything to grow in. Really nice feeling knowing a tank is actually on its way to where you want it to be. No doubt there's a disaster round the corner


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## tim (20 Aug 2012)

really nice looking tank those shrimp are stunning for wild caught shrimp i can see what you mean about the light bracket though looks like you have a massive hob filter on the tank couldnt you diy a free standing light hanger so you dont have to drill into anything very impressive nano mate


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## hotweldfire (21 Aug 2012)

Thanks mate. Filter is actually an external canister and hopefully will be out of sight soon. Just waiting on the glassware from HK before moving it.

Yeah, a free standing light hanger would be sensible. Unfortunately my DIY skills are awful.


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## sr20det (21 Aug 2012)

How is the Boyo filter? I like the spray bar idea but heard the flow can be weak? Amongst other things of leaks, etc.  Tempted in one for my shrimp tank?


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## JohnC (21 Aug 2012)

I'd also heard bad things about the Eden 501, i'll be interested to see how it fares being below the tank level. 

Agree on the tile mount. Very ugly. I think i'd be tempted to mount it going sideways across the tank with the intake/outtake either side, then at least you wouldnt have to look at the back facing, although you still have the issue of it not being centre. 

Plant wise - coming along nicely. Some plants i've not seen there that interest me like that afro moss.

Shrimp - BLOODY AMAZING wild shrimp. So pretty. More photos please.

Best Regards,
John


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## JohnC (21 Aug 2012)

p.s Can you tell us all your current dosing regime?

Thanks,
John


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## hotweldfire (21 Aug 2012)

sr20det said:
			
		

> How is the Boyo filter? I like the spray bar idea but heard the flow can be weak? Amongst other things of leaks, etc.  Tempted in one for my shrimp tank?



Filter on this tank is an Eden. I'm very happy with it so far but, as John says, the test will be moving it to the shelf below. Funnily enough I'm literally about to set up a boyu filter on my office 12l tank. Will try to post on that thread later today.



			
				JohnC said:
			
		

> Plant wise - coming along nicely. Some plants i've not seen there that interest me like that afro moss.
> 
> Shrimp - BLOODY AMAZING wild shrimp. So pretty. More photos please.



Thanks mate. Afro is only available from LW but some other members have it. Painfully slow grower though, probably the slowest moss I've ever had. Will do my best with the shrimp photos but photography not my strong point. Hope they survive this weather all right. I'm losing sakura in this tank to what I assume is a bacterial outbreak caused by the temperature. Hopefully that'll settle down when the weather cools. Dosing paraguard in the meantime to keep it under control.


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## sr20det (21 Aug 2012)

hotweldfire said:
			
		

> sr20det said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think they might be a same filter rebranded?  Not sure might be different?  I have seen them refeered to as Boyu, but APS do the same I think:

http://www.allpondsolutions.co.uk/aquar ... 0-l-h.html

That was te one I had planned to go for.  Mainly due to price and spray bar option. And seeing it was a 14l.  I have a 260l HOB and it doesnt seem like 260lph


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## tim (21 Aug 2012)

think the eden has a higher flow rate just put the boyu one on my 12 ltr nano found the pipe work bit to stiff so swapped it for some jbl 9/12 pipe have orderd some acrylic to make inlet outlet flow was non existent with supplied spray bar and it leaks when i turn it off unless i pull the intake out for a second but for £20 its better than the hob i was using i wouldnt want to put it under the tank though i think if i had a power cut itd empty the tank sorry to spam your thread :?


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## hotweldfire (21 Aug 2012)

No mate, not spam at all. I've left it running on my office tank and have been feeling anxious since I left the building. How does it leak when power's off? I didn't notice that. 

It's definitely a different filter to the Eden. They look identical but I think the Boyu is basically a cheap copy of the Eden. Build quality on Eden much better and it has double the flow as Tim said. My Boyu has air trapped in it that I wasted two hours trying to get rid of. Not too impressed with it so far but you get what you pay for. Eden is more than double the price. 

Sent from my GT-P7310 using Tapatalk 2


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## hotweldfire (21 Aug 2012)

JohnC said:
			
		

> p.s Can you tell us all your current dosing regime?
> 
> Thanks,
> John



Sorry mate, missed that earlier. Up to recently I was doing 1ml of TPN and 1ml TPN+ 3 times a week (so total of 3ml of each). Since adding the much more powerful light and co2 I've cranked up to 2x5ml TPN+ and 1x5ml TPN a week. 

Sent from my GT-P7310 using Tapatalk 2


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## tim (21 Aug 2012)

> No mate, not spam at all. I've left it running on my office tank and have been feeling anxious since I left the building. How does it leak when power's off? I didn't notice that.


soon as i unplugged it i assume it just started syphoning water at a higher pressure or something started leaking from the lid canister seal until i pulled up the outlet if i need to unplug it now i pull the intake out of the water for a second or so clear the intake pipe no leaks like you say you get what you pay for bit of tweaking and i think for me its better than a hob flow wise


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## tim (27 Aug 2012)

how did the boyu hold up mate no leaks i hope mine seems to have stopped leaking


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## wazuck (27 Aug 2012)

I have the same problem with my Led not being in the centre of my 35cm cube . It's annoying and yours must be worse!!


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## wazuck (27 Aug 2012)

I have the same problem with my Led not being in the centre of my 35cm cube . It's annoying and yours must be worse!!


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## hotweldfire (27 Aug 2012)

Spent today routing out holes in shelves and reorganising kit so that everything is on the shelf below hidden behind books. Other half now so impressed with the way the tank looks and so unimpressed with the rail that I have a pass to screw it to the shelf above   

Meanwhile I'm dead impressed with the eden 501. I now have it running on the shelf below too (which is not recommended apparently) and it's pumping fine and pretty strong. Took a while to vent all the air but to be fair it had a large amount of empty hose to fill up. Have now got it connected to lily pipes which look well nice.

Not so impressed with the Boyu. The two look identical but the boyu is a pretty poor imitation. Not leaked yet but after I set it up in the office it had trapped air rattling away in it that I couldn't shift. Eventually went by itself after a couple of days but then started buzzing on Friday. Wasn't because of vibration on the desk (although that could happen as it doesn't have rubber feet) because I lifted it and it still made the noise. Hoping I'm not going to come in tomorrow to a flooded office. Also the taps I installed on it were a waste of time as the flow doesn't necessitate their use.

Wish I'd gone for another Eden.


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## hotweldfire (30 Sep 2012)

Quick update and apologies as ever for crap phone camera photos. Still need to tape up that power cable but looking a bit tidier in the alcove:


2012-8-30_23.30.58 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

2012-8-30_22.59.20 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

Myrophyllum is a well nutty plant. Especially in a co2 tank:

2012-8-30_22.59.30 by hotweldfire, on Flickr

Only thing struggling is this ammania bonsai. I am wondering if it ain't getting eaten as nothing else is showing these sorts of co2 related deficiencies and there's minimal hair algae in the tank (but there are a few snails):

2012-8-30_23.2.39 by hotweldfire, on Flickr


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## nayr88 (8 Oct 2012)

this looks really nice mate, really clean and fresh looking. you must be very pleased with it.


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## Ben22 (11 Oct 2012)

Just read this from start to finish. What a brilliant thread! I love how you have started something and then just changed it! Brilliant. The final outcome is looking great. I have the same tank, two of them. Did you know though pets at home did a recall on that light unit for a fire hazard? The tanks have now been discontinued altogether no idea why as the tanks themselves are great. 

I have a few questions if you don't mind me asking. 1: from the experience of trying to set up a low tech tank, what plants would you recommend to others? 2: your current co2 kit what is it? And 3: where the previous problems related to the use of those rocks do you think? 

Thanks and are be following all updated progress!


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## Iain Sutherland (11 Oct 2012)

Looks great saj, id say the ammania looks nibbled rather than co2.  Wish i had bought 3 or 4 of these tanks before they were discontinued


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## hotweldfire (16 Oct 2012)

nayr88 said:
			
		

> this looks really nice mate, really clean and fresh looking. you must be very pleased with it.





			
				easerthegeezer said:
			
		

> Looks great saj, id say the ammania looks nibbled rather than co2.  Wish i had bought 3 or 4 of these tanks before they were discontinued



Thanks all. Yep, pretty convinced ammania is down to snails. The sheer amount of snail eggs being laid on it (and not elsewhere) is a pretty clear sign. Unfortunately assassins don't survive long in this tank (or in my other tanks) because of the low PH. It has to be manual removal which is a pain.

I'm now starting to get some algae. Mainly cladaphora and a bit of hair but also the dreaded BBA. This is down to me trying to adjust the co2 level and the TMC nano reg valve being so crap. I've got some tips from Radik about getting a needle valve off ebay and attaching it so will probably give that a go.



			
				motionless said:
			
		

> Just read this from start to finish. What a brilliant thread! I love how you have started something and then just changed it! Brilliant. The final outcome is looking great. I have the same tank, two of them. Did you know though pets at home did a recall on that light unit for a fire hazard? The tanks have now been discontinued altogether no idea why as the tanks themselves are great.
> 
> I have a few questions if you don't mind me asking. 1: from the experience of trying to set up a low tech tank, what plants would you recommend to others? 2: your current co2 kit what is it? And 3: where the previous problems related to the use of those rocks do you think?
> 
> Thanks and are be following all updated progress!



Thanks for the kind words. Yep, I believe the supposed fire hazard was the fact that they didn't quite fit on to the glass snugly enough. Answers to questions are

1. Myrophyllum is a fantastic low tech stem, especially for nanos. I wouldn't recommend the red type though, I've had little success with it. Didiplis diandra also has done OK. The amano pearl grass (currently mid ground right) I've struggled with. It never rooted that well and is very fragile, even under co2. Might be removing it. Most mosses will do well but you need to keep them pretty clean. I've yet to find a carpeting plant that is low tech happy. Crypts are often great low tech plants but I think they are too big for a nano, even parva. But then I like miniaturisation.
2. co2 kit is a TMC nano reg on a 95g (I think) bottle. Not happy with it. I previously used the waterplant version which was crap but the TMC isn't much better. The valve is very hard to control so you spend ages adjusting it back and forth and it still takes a while to settle down so you can come back ten minutes later and find it running at a different rate than you thought. My problem is that the bottle has to sit on the shelf below and I'm not willing to lay a co2 bottle on its side.
3. Dunno if it was the rock but I don't take any chances in nano tanks any more. No rocks in this one and I'm using lava rock in my 12l which is inert. Dragon stone in my main tank but it's bigger and gets 50% weekly water changes anyway.


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## hotweldfire (14 Aug 2016)

Another summer, another rescape. Maybe another name. Kinda looks like an ent. An elephant ent.

2016-07-17 13.15.48 by hotweldfire, on Flickr
2016-07-17 13.16.00 by hotweldfire, on Flickr


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## tim (14 Aug 2016)

Looks great, nice to see you back on here.


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