# Sedona - 20L (Liza's Tank - Update)



## keymaker (10 Sep 2008)

Hello UKAPS readers!

I guess it's time for me to start a journal of a 20L Nano Tank I built for my (then) 5-year-old daughter Liza. Thanks to Paulo for directing me to this forum and his encouragement for starting this.

Images after rescape of this tank are to be found on page 14.

*This is the most recent picture of the tank (02.03.2010):*






----

OK, so I launched it on June 16, 2008. It is a 35 x 24 x 24 cm size Tetra tank. It was a "complete setup" but I only kept the tank and the original compact tube.

*Filtration*: I am using an Eheim Classic 2211 external filter. It has a volume of 1L and an on-paper max Flow-Rate of 300 lph. Cal Aqua glass nano lily pipe set used for filter inflow/outflow, got it from AquaEssentials UK.

*Lighting*: the tank came with a 11W Compact Tube (9000K white). As that was far from enough I installed an additional 6W Osram T5 tube (4100K yellow) with a Juwel reflector. They're on for 9 hours/day 2PM-11PM, using a digital timer.

*Water Heating/Cooling*: Hydor ETH 200 external heater with 12 mm int. hose. A small DIY mounted 12V 4x4cm fan - running on 6V for lower noise-levels - cools the water surface and decreases water temperature by about 2-3Â° C.






*Carbon Dioxide*: Pressurized CO2 system with Dennerle Crystal-Line (glass) drop checker, bubble counter (currently set for  16-20 bubbles/minute) and diffusor. The glass check-valve will be replaced with a Dennerle Profi Line one soon (due to minor leaks). I use a 350g CO2 bottle from Aqua Light and a Papillon pressure reducer with a working pressure of 2 bars. The Dennerle solenoid valve switches on - using a second digital timer - 30 minutes before the lights and turns of the CO2 flow 10 minutes before lights go off. CO2 level is around 20 mg/l.






*Plant Fertilizing*: I dose 10 drops (0.5 ml) of Easy Carbo and 6 drpos of Tropica Plant Nutrition+ (0.3 ml) every day, doing weekly 30-50% water changes. I use Easy Life - Easy Life for tap-water treatment.

*Substrate/Deco.*: 1cm thick Dennerle FloreDepot and Sera Substrate mix, with 5 kg (4 cm thick) Africa Black Gravel on top. The background is black paper. *Water Parameters*: PH 7.2, KH 9, GH 16, Nitrate 10 mg/l, Nitrite 0, Ammonia 0, Temp.: 26-28Â° C. I know the KH,  GH and PH are pretty high but I did not want to get into the RO (or distilled) water business just yet, let's see if I can get by without.

*Plants*: Glossostigma Elatinoides (FG). Hemianthus Callittrichoidus (FG - only a small spot for testing purposes),  Hemianthus micranthemoides (mid-ground transition), Cladophora aegraglopila (cannot really see that, it is in the BG), Cryptocoryne x willisii, Microsorum pteropus 'WindelÃ¸v' (on rock), Microsorum pteropus (Java Fern - on rock), Rotala Macranda (Red stem plant in BG).

*Fish/Invertebrates*: Stocking rule - Maximum of 5 cm / 4.55 liter = 22 cm in total. 3x Otocinclus affinis (Oto, 2F, 1M), 6x Boraras Brigittae (Dwarf Rasbora, 3F, 3M), 5x Neocaridina Heteropoda (Cherry Shrimp, 4F, 1M), 1x Corydoras Paleatus (Pepper Cory - guest only).






Folks, please appreciate it when you have a well-equipped, competitively priced LFS near you. I usually drive 300 kilometers to Austria - thats about 4 hours - for most of the stuff, including fish and plants. Just never seem to be getting exactly what I want locally.  

-----------------------------------------------

*History*:
I've been fighting filamentous algae, green spot algae, diatoms and recently staghorn algae too. After the fishless cycle I heavily overstocked with bigger fish not really suitable for a tank like this. Who new?  :?  Gave away most of the original stem plants too, except Rotala Macranda (red). Having the Hemianthus micranthemoides in a Nano Tank FG was a mistake too, so I moved it to be a mid-ground plant. I grouped the rocks together as they started to disappear. I still need to remove the white surface film every day - I want to do something about that. My original blog with further details can be found here.

Day 0:





Day 2:





Day 40:





Day 75:





Day 76 (after planting the Glosso):





Day 82





Thanks for reading this. I'd really appreciate your comments.

B.


----------



## ceg4048 (10 Sep 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*



			
				keymaker said:
			
		

> Water Parameters[/b]: PH 7.2, KH 9, GH 16, Nitrate 10 mg/l, Nitrite 0, Ammonia 0, Temp.: 26-28Â° C. I know the KH,  GH and PH are pretty high but I did not want to get into the RO (or distilled) water business just yet, let's see if I can get by without.


Hi,
                Very well done. Who says these parameters are high? These are the perfect levels for all plants not named Tonina. You are not "getting by". The water is better for plants than RO could ever dream of being. None of the plants you listed are soft water plants.



			
				keymaker said:
			
		

> I've been fighting filamentous algae, green spot algae, diatoms and recently staghorn algae too.


Filamentous and staghorn are symptoms of poor CO2 or poor CO2 distribution. This can easily be fixed with increased injection rate. Green spot algae is a result of poor phosphate dosing. Increase your PO4 level and this will go away. None of these have anything to do with overstocking, although that is never a good idea in general. Increase your nutrient /Co2 levels and your surface film will magically go away as well.

Cheers,


----------



## a1Matt (10 Sep 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*



			
				keymaker said:
			
		

> Thanks for reading this.



Thanks for posting this! and the tank is looking good. 

Clive (ceg) is a wise man, following his advice will get your tank tip top in no time at all   



			
				keymaker said:
			
		

> Folks, please appreciate it when you have a well-equipped, competitively priced LFS near you. I usually drive 300 kilometers to Austria - thats about 4 hours - for most of the stuff, including fish and plants. Just never seem to be getting exactly what I want locally.



Wow! 400km, that is dedication! 1 hour drive is my limit! 

I do really apreciate my local LFS'

Just yesterday I had a peruvian friend in my home and I said 'you see those fish (points to Neon Tetras) they are from South America'.

'Wow' she says' where did you get them, are they expensive!'

to which I reply that they came from 1 mile down the road and cost about Â£1 each!


----------



## LondonDragon (10 Sep 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Hi Mate, guess the encouragement paid off, what a well written journal, love it and the tank is awsome, just follow Clives suggestions for the algae issues and you will be fine 
Thanks for sharing this with us


----------



## joyous214 (10 Sep 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

wow great tank looks just amazing.


----------



## keymaker (11 Sep 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Guys, thank you all for the positive feedback - glad you like the tank. I know there's a lot more to do. As someone on this forum rightly said, I should visualize the end result before starting to build the tank. Well, what you see now is something that was built based on step-by-step necessary changes. That obviously shows, the whole thing is a little hectic... 

Clive, thank you for your suggestions. I am surely taking your advice. Diatoms are mostly gone because of the Otos and Shrimps. Green spot and filamentous algae were only a problem at the beginning.

As with the staghorn algae... Well, the Eheim 2211 filter provides a really good - and as far as my modest experience says - even flow in this small tank, so I guess there's a problem with CO2 levels (or fluctuation). Most staghorn algae grows on the leaves with the strongest flow, closer to the filter output. I am increasing the CO2 injection from 20 bubbles/min. to 30 bubbles and switching it on 1 hour before the lights. In accordance, dosing of  TPN+ is up from 6 drops to 9. Yesterday I cleaned the filter too.


----------



## aaronnorth (11 Sep 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

nice tank, i saw this on PFK.


----------



## keymaker (12 Sep 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Thanks, aaronnorth. I posted my tank on PFK right after setting it up... I learned the basics of high-tech aquascaping from that site (big thx to George).

OK, so I finally got back my old Canon G3 from a friend and could not resist taking another picture, so here is the tank as of today:






The fertilizer dosing and CO2 injection rate looks like this:

Easy Carbo: 12 drops (up from 10)
TPN+: 10 drops (up from 6)
Sera Flore Daydrops: 2 (up from 0) 
CO2 bubble rate: 43 (up from 20).

I found the Sera stuff really boosting growth. They do not list the ingredients, so I have no idea if it contains anything extra from the TPN+ (I have that list) but it sure looks like Sera Flore helps. It might only be the extra amount of something, in a Nano Tank like this, every drop counts. Also, got my new Profi Line CO2 check valve from Dennerle to replace the old Crystal Line glass stuff - what a difference. This works. 

The mini-rock on the top of the pile is whiter because I introduced it only two weeks ago to pin down the otherwise floating zucchini for the Otos. The Austrian LFS guy who sold me the fish said Otos should eat potatoes (the hard type we use to make salad) as they contain more nutrients. Mine refuse to eat it though.

Thanks for reading this. Please comment.


----------



## JamesM (12 Sep 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Last pic(s) not showing for me atm, but the tank looks great in the first pics 

Being nosey. I have to ask... what's in the heavily wrapped parcel?


----------



## JamesM (12 Sep 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*



			
				JAmesM said:
			
		

> Being nosey. I have to ask... what's in the heavily wrapped parcel?


It's the Eheim filter.    The parcel is covered with polyfoam from outside and wrapped with tape to hold it. The inside is full of foam too. The whole thing is held together by my old belt (the one before I started working out as a mid-life-crisis thing).    The "technology" is also inside a closed cabinet. My daughter sleeps right next to it, so I needed it to be reeealy silent.


			
				JAmesM said:
			
		

> Last pic(s) not showing for me atm


You're absolutely right! No extra lights, hairdryer and other "hocus focus" for this shot.


----------



## ceg4048 (13 Sep 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Hi,
    I must have missed something but why have you attributed accelerated growth to the Sera drops? Did you not also increase TPN+, Easy Carbo as well as the CO2 injection rate? On what basis did you conclude that only the Sera drops increased growth and not the other ingredients? The Sera product is likely a duplicate of the TPN+ according to the advertising (*SERA HOME*) and if that's the case the only difference it will have is relative concentration of individual nutrients. It may be more concentrated than the TPN+ (or less so) but you will not be able to determine that based on these observations alone.

Cheers,


----------



## keymaker (13 Sep 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> why have you attributed accelerated growth to the Sera drops? Did you not also increase TPN+, Easy Carbo as well as the CO2 injection rate?


Clive, sry, I forgot to say the first day I did not raise the other levels, just added Sera to the lower dosing regime. I always measure overnight growth with Hemianthus micranthemoides and it developed wider leaves closer to each other the first day. I observed that earlier a couple of times, when dosing more...


			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> The Sera product is likely a duplicate of the TPN+ according to the advertising ... It may be more concentrated than the TPN+ (or less so) but you will not be able to determine that based on these observations alone.


Thanks, I think you are right (as always  ). Looking at the normal dosing quantities from both products, Sera seems to be the more concentrated one.

I did not like the idea of dosing too similar products anyway. What I'll do is increase the dosing of TPN+ with additional 4 drops, and waste the Sera for now. See how the tank reacts. New levels:

Easy Carbo: 12 drops (unchanged)
TPN+: 14 drops (up from 10)
Sera Flore Daydrops: 0 (down from 2) 
CO2 bubble rate: 43 (unchanged).

Thanks again for the suggestion!


----------



## ceg4048 (13 Sep 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Hi,
    I wasn't trying to persuade you to drop the Sera, but only to be careful of how you interpret your observations, as well as to bring to your attention that there was no need to _buy_ two products that do essentially the same thing. It's very easy to draw false correlations from optical illusions. I was also trying to emphasize that we really need to question and to understand the contents of the products we use otherwise we needlessly spend money for limited gain and we become susceptible to brainwashing.  

It's entirely possible that the Sera is less expensive to use but is just as effective at growing plants. I don't know the answer to that question. If it _were_ true then it would actually make sense to drop the TPN+ instead and to continue using the Sera. To determine which is more effective, or less expensive you would have to drop one, use the other and note the plant health/growth over a period of weeks. Compare plant growth with each while keeping all other ingredients the same as much as possible. This is not as easy to do as it sounds but is a much more scientific approach.

Most people just want to get on with it and prefer to leave experimentation to the guys in white lab coats, but it's worthwhile knowing the relative performance of these two products.

Hope this doesn't cause confusion...  

Cheers,


----------



## keymaker (13 Sep 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Clive, you're not causing confusion, you are making things more clear to me, actually. Thanks for that.

I prefer leaving experimentation to more experienced chaps than I am.  With or without lab coats...  The practice that I'm applying as a beginner is to copy the general fishkeeping techniques that have been applied for many years by people like you. I'm making enough mistakes even like this. I started with Sera as the only available fertilizer 3 months ago. Using TPN+ for only 2 weeks now. Will stick to it for the next couple of weeks to see how it works.


----------



## keymaker (15 Sep 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Just a quick question as I had just read about the sad happenings in LD's tank. Sry for that Mate. Am I supposed to run an airstone during off-light hours to prevent O2 levels dropping? I figured aeration will draw CO2 out of the tank, thus further contributing to CO2 fluctuation and algae growth. Fish seem to do fine without airing now.


----------



## ceg4048 (15 Sep 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

keymaker, if your fish are doing fine then leave things as is. In any case fluctuations only matter when the lights are on. If you do use an airstone overnight this is not a problem as far as algae are concerned. Poor CO2 is only a problem during the photoperiod as it interrupts carbon fixation.

Cheers,


----------



## keymaker (19 Sep 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

A quick update: Staghorn algae is still an issue, it looks like the growing had stopped, waiting for it to die back. CO2 levels are increased (drop checker lime green) and daily fertilizing stable with 12 drops (6ml) of TPN+ and Easy Carbo. I noticed some unconfortable fish one morning with the CO2 levels increased so I started airing from 8AM-1PM (no airing at night - too much noise for my little daughter). Seems it helps.

I painted the back and one side wall black replacing the old glossy black paper. What a difference! Plants no longer reflect on the two walls, it gives the tank a cleaner look and it gives more focus to the plants. I will try taking photos the next week, I hope the difference will show on them.

I found a local company producing glassware stuff and ordered some custom-made pipes for CO2 and O2 to replace the black hosing. It should add to the feel considerably.

How often should one change the mash pad in the external filter? Mine is in for 3 months now, I figured it's time...


----------



## keymaker (21 Sep 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Why is the water disappearing from my drop checker?  :? 

It can go two ways: towards the check valve right below it or towards the tank. Also, it always happens during the night. I checked the new check valve and the black hose leading to it a couple of times and no sign of any serious water volume. True though that pressure from the tank pushes back some of the water into the hose leading towards the check valve during the night but as far as I could see it's being pushed back with the opening of the solenoid valve.

The other direction is towards the tank. Can some the water evaporate from the drop checker every night into the long hose leading to the tank and be pushed when the CO2 goes on? How can I prevent that? Should I put a second check valve between the tank and drop checker?

I ordered some clear CO2 hose from the UK, will arrive the next week. Now it's black, I can't see anything.   

Any answer would be really appreciated. Cheers.


----------



## aaronnorth (21 Sep 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

I take it you mean bubble counter?

This is normal, it is just evaporation, you should only need to refill every few months although it does sepend on the temperature of its surroundings.


----------



## keymaker (21 Sep 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

OH, yes, sry. I meant bubble counter.   It looks like I slept too much...

Well, the temperature in the cabinet below the tank might be higher than the room temp. with all the equipment heating it... But the water disappears in just one week!!!


----------



## aaronnorth (21 Sep 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

not sure about the time it is evaporating in, but on mine, my equipment is exposed, and my room temp is around 22C, after 2 months it still doesnt need refilling and it could easily last another month the way it is going.


----------



## jay (21 Sep 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

I just fill it right up and only ever changed the water when I set up on a new tank.


----------



## keymaker (23 Sep 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Thank you for your anwers, I guess will wait for the clear hose to arrive to see where the water disappears from the bubble counter... I might also temporarily replace it with the new one from my big tank to see if it does the same thing. Honestly, I'm a little fed up with this messy CO2 equipment business. I am adjusting, changing, repairing, adjusting again, and-so-on for two months now. Also, can't seem to be able to find the right amount of CO2 / nutrient dosing quantities and staghorn algae grow like mad. Poor CO2 injection aside, can Potassium excess from the TPN+ be causing staghorn algea growth?

Yesterday the cannister of my Eheim 2211 cracked as I tightened the outflow pipe too much. What a mess, I had to rush to the nearest store to get a replacement. The filter was off for 2 hours. One Oto died as a result. I guess he was weekended anyway, he was in the tank for 3 weeks only. Would not eat the zucchini like the other two. They say if Otos survive the 3 weeks they have good chances. I certainly hope so.

I picked up my custom-made CO2 and O2 glassware yesterday, they look really good in the tank, repacing the black hosing. It also was surprisingly cheap.

I visited the biggest (!) Hungarian Fishkeeping Expo on Sunday. They had 30 tanks with about 5 exhibitors. OMG what a sad story this is... I was not expecting an Interzoo, but 5 tables??? And Micranthemum Umbrosum being sold as Glosso by the biggest independent retailer??? German shrimp expert Chris Lukhaup was here for a lecture though. That was interesting.

Thanks for reading...


----------



## keymaker (24 Sep 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Today I bought 2 additional Otos. The "old" ones are in the tank for 3 weeks already. Check this photo out - on the left you see one of the newcomers. On the right you have the fat guy from earlier. What a difference. 







I read somewhere that they usually arrive starved from the LFS. Sad but true.


----------



## LondonDragon (24 Sep 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*



			
				keymaker said:
			
		

> I read somewhere that they usually arrive starved from the LFS. Sad but true.


Nice Ottos and nice photography  it will be fat like the other one in no time  good luck


----------



## a1Matt (24 Sep 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

I read somewhere once... "a fat oto is a happy oto"

I couldn't agree more and am sure your newcomers will 'cheer up' in no time at all


----------



## jay (25 Sep 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*



			
				a1Matt said:
			
		

> I read somewhere once... "a fat oto is a happy oto"



Mine must be grinning like Cheshire cats then.


----------



## keymaker (27 Sep 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Paulo, jay, a1Matt, thx for the replies. The new Otos seem to do fine for now, bellies rounding. 

I finally have all the CO2 equipment working properly. I installed the clear hosing from AquaEssentials, I changed the bubble counter and finally there's no water loss whatsoever. When on, bubble rate is constant 72 per minute. The drop checker is lime green, plants pearling like crazy and fish not suffering from it.

The algae issue however is not fine. The whole mess with the CO2, switching to smaller fish (thus less load on the tank), replanting the FG with Glosso and a filter canister crack seem to have caused serious imbalances in this small tank, so staghorn algae took over. It spread from the Fern next to the filter outlet to the Glosso in the FG. Strangely it mostly grows in areas with higher CO2 distribution.

At Clive's advice (thank you again for that) I increased the CO2 injection rate a couple of days ago. As a result the Glosso seems to be spreading nicely. I installed a third 6W tube with reflectors, so now I have 23W total for the 4 gallon so I kinda' hit the WPG high-light requirement.  I know I will have to increase dosing and CO2 accordingly.

Just to clear this staghorn algae mess quickly I decided to do a 3-day blackout too. I'll be gone tonight for the Munich festival anyway.


----------



## keymaker (4 Oct 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Blackout did not to help get rid of staghorn algae plus another type appeared on the Glosso.

This is the tank picture as of today (please ignore the poor quality, I really feel ashamed of my tank full-shot photography skills  ):






I know that staghorn algae can be a fluctuating CO2 sign. On the tank shot you can see that the drop checker color is light-green at the start of photo period. (CO2 switched on 1 hour before lights on. I changed it to 2 hours today to provide more CO2 at start.) The light green color changes during the day only to be on the yellow side at lights off:






Does that qualify as fluctuation inducing SA?

On another issue -- promise to open a new topic for this in due time:

It took ages but I'm almost ready to set up my 240L tank. I bought it in April. It's still empty, waiting for me to mature   .    Anyway, I plan having *two* Eheim 2028 filters with *two* Aquamas in-line reactors -- CO2 being supplied through a Y divider. I am also thinking to do the airing through the reactor itself with another Y connector and a series of check valves but I'm afraid it will lead to air accumulation at the top of the reactor and thus high noise-levels.

I read here that JamesC and Ray are already using this combination so what do you guys think of this?


----------



## keymaker (7 Oct 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

After doing some thinking I suspect that the Eheim Classic 2211 filter might be too slow for my tank, thus not providing enough flow to deliver CO2 to the plants. The spec. says it has a 300 lph turnover. Sure, we know what numbers Eheim put on their fact-sheets.  Well, I'm thinking of upgrading to 2222 Pro (500 / 350 w. load lph) or 2224 Pro (700 / 500 lph). Please help me decide which one...

Also, I had surface scum and I recently found Clive's reply on one of the other journals:



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> ...from what I've seen is that surface scum is often an indication of stressed plants leaching proteins back into the water column. My first inclination is to increase nutrient dosing first before I try making adjustments to anything else...  As bizarre as it may sound I normally equate surface scum with starvation.



I wonder if 1ml/20l/day of TPN+ is too little. This is what George Farmer usually doses though. Should I try increasing?

Any thoughts on my previous posts? Please, I feel lonely here.


----------



## ceg4048 (8 Oct 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Hi keymaker,
                    Normally when George gives his dosing numbers he almost always gives it with a proviso, and that is that he lives in an area where the water supply is reportedly high in NO3/PO4 due to runoff. This is an important caveat and every tank is different so one cannot simply use his numbers blindly without considering the properties of ones own water supply and tank conditions. If you add more CO2 oftentimes an increase in NO3/PO4 is a good idea.

Having said that the staghorn algae  is not typically associated with NO3/PO4, but the surface scum is a combination of CO2 and/or NO3/PO4. Our rule of thumb for flow rates is 10X tank volume filter rating. This 10X rule already takes into account that the filters only ever deliver 40%-50% of their rated flow so no further calculations need to be applied, however depending on your flow patterns and biomass geometry it may be that you need more (George typically uses the 20X rule in very small tanks). So it could easily be that your injection rate and timing is adequate but that flow to the carpet plants is marginal for example. There is quite a bit of biomass in the tank so it will help to thin it out a bit. 

Having added more light you have given yourself less margin of error so cutting back the lighting level, for example during the hours that you are not home, will help.

Also, are you using 4dKH distilled water in your drop checker? If not you could have false high reading in the dropchecker if you use tank water in it.

Cheers,


----------



## vauxhallmark (8 Oct 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Also, are you using 4dKH distilled water in your drop checker? If not you could have false high reading in the dropchecker if you use tank water in it.
> 
> Cheers,



It could just as easily be giving a false low reading - where I live (in London) the KH of tap water is 18. If I used that in a drop checker, to get to the same colour (pH) that 4KH water shows in the drop checker, I would have to raise CO2 levels to nearly 150! If I used 18KH water in the drop checker and raised CO2 levels to 30ppm the reagent would still be blue at pH7.3, giving me a false low reading (if I was aiming for green).

Mark


----------



## ceg4048 (8 Oct 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Mark,
        Well, false lows are easy to tell because the fish would have been annihilated long before keymaker's dropchecker reached the yellow color. Also there is CO2 related algae in the tank so it's a safe bet that if tank water is being used it's reading a false high rather than a false low. With all the other acids in tank water it's very unusual to see dropcheckers reading false lows.

Cheers,


----------



## keymaker (8 Oct 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> If you add more CO2 oftentimes an increase in NO3/PO4 is a good idea.


Ok, the NO3 liquid test tells me I have approx. 12.5 mg/l in my tank. Thats in the morning. It looks like my tap water has about the same amount.



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Having said that the staghorn algae  is not typically associated with NO3/PO4, but the surface scum is a combination of CO2 and/or NO3/PO4.


I will certainly increase TPN+ dosing from 20 drops to 30 for a couple of weeks to see what happens.



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Our rule of thumb for flow rates is 10X tank volume filter rating. This 10X rule already takes into account that the filters only ever deliver 40%-50% of their rated flow .... George typically uses the 20X rule in very small tanks...


Just bought and I am about to install an Eheim Pro 2222 to replace the Classic 2211. The flow rate will be 500 instead of 300 with more than double the size - thus I will make it less stuffed.



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Having added more light you have given yourself less margin of error so cutting back the lighting level, for example during the hours that you are not home, will help.


No way.  The point of the whole "exercise" is to find that narrow balance line in this little tank, so I will be prepared for everything in the big tank... Better to learn how to handle a more difficult condition.



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> are you using 4dKH distilled water in your drop checker?


You obviously do not know me.    I'm the type of guy who bought his big fishtank in April, and it is still empty waiting for me to cycle.  I read everything, I learn fast. The only problem is that I found out that most of the fishkeeping knowledge comes with experience.

Of course, my drop checker has the 4dKH water.  I actually have two drop-checkers in the tank, a Dennerle with it's original solution from before, and one ADA with a ready-made AquaRebell CO2-KH4 solution ordered separately from Germany. Both have the very same color.



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> ... the fish would have been annihilated long before keymaker's dropchecker reached the yellow color.


Is this how a yellow drop checker should look like?  :?  I thought there's still way to go to yellow.

*Oh, I just realized something*: there is a great chance of CO2 gas being "trapped" in the drop checker. Being a small tank, there is not enough space to separate the drop checker from the diffuser. They are simply too close! Some of the CO2 bubbles - on their way up - manage to land in the drop checker! This is not how drop checkers are supposed to work. The tank water is supposed to release the gas already dissolved in it.


----------



## keymaker (22 Oct 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Update: I finally realized that low nutrition levels were the main cause of plant decay and ammonia spikes in the tank. After increasing TPN+ dosage to 2ml/20l/day things have stabilized somewhat. But I can't get rid of the already grown staghorn algae. Ugly stuff:














Moved the drop checker near the glosso, it's light green (upper right corner on the last pic.), 84 bpm should be enough CO2...

-----

In my preps for the 260l tank I found the following rock in a LFS (said to be a pagoda stone from South Africa, but guess it's not really...):






I want to buy 30kg of these but my concern is that after dripping some PH-Minus on it I can see heavy bubbling so it might raise the KH that is originally 9. I know it depends on a lot of factors, but how much do you think it would increase my tank's KH? Sure looks like I'm in a desperate need of a good link discussing the water parameter changes induced by rocks. 

What about the pagoda stone used by the winner at the ADA Contest in 2008? Does that react to PH-Minus in the same way?


----------



## LondonDragon (22 Oct 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*



			
				keymaker said:
			
		

> In my preps for the 260l tank I found the following rock in a LFS (said to be a pagoda stone from South Africa, but guess it's not really...):



It is Pagoda stone  now if it comes from South Africa no idea! lol


----------



## Themuleous (23 Oct 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

If you've sorted out the cause of the staghorn, then overdosing excel will get rid of the stuff you have at the moment.  Very effectively as well.  Works a treat 

Sam


----------



## keymaker (24 Oct 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Thanks for the answers!

Paulo, I guess I will have to put the stone in the nano tank, once I got rid of all the algae to see what does it do to the KH. If it proves OK, I'm gonna get the whole bag... I just feel so sorry for this little tank, once I sort something out I'm immediately going for the next experiment to ruin everything. Grrr.

My question stands though: does anyone know of a good site or article about different rocks in the fishtank and water chemistry changes?

Themuleous, thanks mate, I will take your advice and overdose Easy Carbo directly next to the algae, see if it speeds things up.

I made a photo of one of my drop checkers yesterday - I think it turned out pretty good:


----------



## keymaker (4 Nov 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

It's US election day, so here's the poll:  I am planning a full rescape of this tank, which layout do you like?

1.





2.


----------



## Stu Worrall (4 Nov 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

no 1 does it for me. the centre rock is too dominent in the second one i think


----------



## Themuleous (4 Nov 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Yep I agree, no 1.  Could imagine that with a lush HC or glosso carpet around the rocks.

Sam

PS - love the DC photo.

EDIT - a word on aesthetics.  Rocks in small numbers, say less than 11, should be added in odd numbers.  The 1st layout has 6, which unbalances the scape.  Perfect if thats what you are going for, but generally its more pleasing to the eye if there are odd numbers.  Perhaps remove the front left rock complete, and move the font right rock back towards the other rocks?  Just a thought.  You'll probably need to try lots of variations before it works


----------



## Dan Crawford (4 Nov 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

No. 1 for me too, i'd maybe leave out the two stones in the corners near the front glass?


----------



## Tom (4 Nov 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

I like number one


----------



## YzemaN (4 Nov 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Neither does it for me, I'm afraid. I guess I'll have to vote for one fo the independents  
I think you need to align the lines and structure of the rocks. Once you've done that you can always have a play-around to create that much sought after tension in the composition.
Here's an example from nature:
Image

But I'm sure you'll turn out another cracking scape. Really liked the other one!


----------



## Steve Smith (4 Nov 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I prefer arrangement 2, appart from the central stone.  To me, the central stone is just that, too central.  It's also too flat onto the front of the layout.  I think if it were rotated and leant to the left (making it part of the cluster on the right) it'd work better.  It does however leave you a gap, but that might be a good thing or a bad thing...

Just my opinion


----------



## Goodygumdrops (4 Nov 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Well,I'm going to be contrary,I am apparently a non conformist btw,and say I also like no2 out of the two choices.Not that I know the last thing about this it just sits better imo.


----------



## keymaker (4 Nov 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Thanks so much for all the feedback! It looks like the turnout was good here... 

For those who preferred the scape #1 I made some small modifications.

Themuleous, now it's 5 rocks. 
Dan, I took out the FG rock from the right side only, the one on the left balances the composition, so it needs to be there for me.

3.





For those who preferred the scape #2 or the "independents"  :

YzemaN, I agree with you completely, usually it is highly desirable to have the lines aligned. Initially, I had a couple of setups with that in mind - none of which were good enough to post. These rocks are just too eclectic. I will try to experiment further.

Steve, I will do another version later on with your suggestion in mind - it will also be in line with YzemaN's theory. Please check back later.


----------



## Tom (4 Nov 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

From this latest pic, I'd put the front left rock kinda front-mid right if that makes sense


----------



## keymaker (4 Nov 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Thanks for the suggestion, Tom. I get your point but placing the rock there would kinda block the "incoming open channel from the point of first focus. Hope this makes sense... 

3. (analysis)





4. (all hail inspirations from the nature)





To help better understand my intentions with the last scape (4) here's the planting plan: the BG in the right is going to be filled with a thick bush of Hemianthus Micranthemoides that will reach the surface. The whole FG and around the rocks is HC. I am considering maybe some Pogostemon Helferii to act as transition. HC or some moss on and between the rocks (not decided yet, I am open to ideas).

So it's between 3 and 4 now. Please hurry with your new votes - the US polls are closing soon. 
Tell me what you think.


----------



## keymaker (6 Nov 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Poll closed, rescape done. Some Microsorum pteropus 'WindelÃ¸v' still missing from the BG (right). A couple of quick pictures:




























What do you think?

I know that many of us have been dosing Easy Carbo in tanks with shrimp. I was wondering though if there is a dose amount above which Easy Carbo is not really good for shrimp. I increased dosage to 1.5 ml / 20l for a couple of days and I found a shrimp dead.


----------



## YzemaN (6 Nov 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Neat! I like how the rock on the right form a tunnel in the angled shot but a canyon in the straight shot. I'm looking forward to see how it develops. And you've chucked in Boraras brigittae. Lovely little fish, I have 15 (left...) in mine. They'll soon get used to you and shoot straight to the surface anytime you go near the tank. Greedy little buggers   I am using EasyCarbo on a similar sized tank, and my RCS don't seem affected at all. In fact they're breeding like crazy, picking up every little bit of food that falls to the bottom, so now my snail infestation has turned into a shrimp infestation  :? They are a lot more fun to watch than snails, so until next time they breed I don't have to worry about what to do with the surplus.


----------



## vauxhallmark (6 Nov 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

It looks FANTASTIC!

Those rocks are unrecognisable underwater - when they were dry they gave no indication of their colours!

Agree with YzemaN about the canyon/tunnel effect too - make sure nothing grows through it!

And, of course, everyone loves a full room shot - b r a v e ! Nice MacBookPro.   I like how you used iPhoto to organise your rock pics - talk about hi-tec!

Can't wait to see it growing and developing. 

All the best,

Mark


----------



## aaronnorth (6 Nov 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

nice little tank you've got there


----------



## Vito (6 Nov 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Nice tanks Liza, Im loving the hardscape.

Well done!

Vito


----------



## JamesM (6 Nov 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Nice


----------



## keymaker (7 Nov 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Thanks all.    It's the UKAPS influence that drives me....

I hope I'll be able to run it without algae issues. The past has shown that even minor nutrient underdosing or a couple of CO2 fluctuations can cause wild algae blooms with the high lighting in this really small tank.

I currently dose 1ml / 20l / day Easy Carbo and 2ml / 20l / day TPN+ with water changes every second day. Will gradually slow that down to one WC every week later on.

Vito, Liza is my little daughter. It's her tank after all.  Hence the dolls and toys on the room shot...  

vauxhallmark, I have a secret - I bleached the rocks in acid before putting them into the tank. That cleared most of the grey crust.

Second poll: what kind of plant would you put in the empty space on the right (behind the rocks)? I would maybe use some Eleocharis or Java Fern (Windelow?) there?...


----------



## Themuleous (7 Nov 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*



			
				keymaker said:
			
		

> It's the UKAPS influence that drives me.....



Glad to hear it  tanks looking good, once the HC gets going it'll look sweet.

Sam


----------



## keymaker (8 Nov 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

How many days after planting the HC am I supposed to see them pearling?

Looking at James' DIY TPN+ nutrient table I'm supposed to have 41.3ppm NO3, 2.17ppm PO4 and 26.6ppm K, 2.38ppm Mg in the tank which falls within the EI range of optimal growth.

CO2 drop checker is lime green with a really good circulation (25x). If you say I'm supposed so see bubbling by now, I'll crank up the CO2 some more even with the drop checker in the OK category.


----------



## keymaker (11 Nov 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

OK, so I dose 2 ml TPN+ every day with 50% wc every second day. Based on James' formula I add 5.9ppm NO3 and 0.31ppm PO4 with each dose. Cumulated amount is 2x5.9=11.8ppm NO3 and 0.62ppm PO4 in two days.

Please confirm that I must then have 2x11.8=23.6ppm NO3 and 2x0.62=1.24ppm PO4 in the tank through the whole week based on the EI rules. Is this correct?


----------



## vauxhallmark (11 Nov 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*



			
				keymaker said:
			
		

> OK, so I dose 2 ml TPN+ every day with 50% wc every second day. Based on James' formula I add 5.9ppm NO3 and 0.31ppm PO4 with each dose. Cumulated amount is 2x5.9=11.8ppm NO3 and 0.62ppm PO4 in two days.
> 
> Please confirm that I must then have 2x11.8=23.6ppm NO3 and 2x0.62=1.24ppm PO4 in the tank through the whole week based on the EI rules. Is this correct?



You are figures are correct, but they are the maximum levels, and occur only on the day without a water change.

Here's a simple way to check it - let's just look at Nitrate.

Open a spreadsheet (in Excel or openoffice). In cell A1 type 0.
In cell A2 type "=A1+5.9" (no quotes). This is the non water change day.
in cell A3 type "=(A2/2)+5.9" (no quotes). This is the water change day, where you remove half of the nitrate, and then add 5.9 again.

Highlight cells A2 and A3 and drag the drag handle at the bottom right of the coloured highlight down for 20 or 30 rows. You'll see that if you drag down far enough (over 27 rows) it will stabilise at 17.7 on wc day, and 23.6 on the other day.

Here are the assumptions we've made to create this simplified model:

~ You are able to measure your dosing accurately
~ There is no other source of Nitrate (no fish food etc)
~ The water used for water changes contains 0 Nitrate
~ There is no uptake of Nitrate (by plants or bacteria or any other means) in the tank - hopefully a false assumption!

If 1 is not true then the model is wrong.
If 2 is wrong (likely!) then reality will be higher than the model's output.
If 3 is not true then reality will again be higher than what the model shows.
If 4 is not true (I hope it is untrue!!) then the real figure will be lower than the model.

So, what I'm saying is, yes, your maths are correct, but really, who can tell? 1,2,3 and 4 will all affect the nitrate levels. If your plants aren't growing then add a bit more, maybe they're taking up more than you expected!

Good luck with this great tank,

Mark


----------



## keymaker (11 Nov 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*



			
				vauxhallmark said:
			
		

> Good luck with this great tank


Thanks, Mark, and many thanks for the formula. I looked into it and my tap water contains 11,8ppm NO3.
Your calculation now looks like this:

In cell A1 type "11,8"
In cell A2 type "=A1+5.9" 
In cell A3 type "=(A2/2)+(11.8/2)+5.9" 

Is this how I'm supposed to factor in the tapwater contents for the 50% wc?


----------



## keymaker (12 Nov 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

After 1 week... (Eleocharis Acicularis is in.)


----------



## lowee (12 Nov 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Its looking really nice! Good choice with the Acicularis, I think it has defiantely added something to the scape.

Can't wait to see it when the foreground fills in!

Tom


----------



## aaronnorth (13 Nov 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

should look good when filled in, but IMO i think you should remove the front left rock which is against the glass.


----------



## Superman (13 Nov 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Looks really nice.


----------



## Themuleous (14 Nov 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Yeh, should look great 

Sam


----------



## keymaker (14 Nov 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Cheers, yeah, it will definitely start to take shape as HC fills in.

I'm a little worried about the absence of the pearling at this stage. 25x flow could be one cause, the other being the CO2 level. It is currently 120 bpm and lime green drop checker in a corner with the least flow and CO2. I'm a little afraid of cranking it up some more as higher bubble rate resulted in some fish gasping earlier. It looks like I do not have any choice though (fert levels should be OK, I'm dosing EI). Would be great to have one of the USD 2500 CO2 tests Tom Barr is using, to know for sure.  



			
				lowee said:
			
		

> Good choice with the Acicularis...


Thanks, I wanted to have some hairgrass for a long time.



			
				aaronnorth said:
			
		

> IMO i think you should remove the front left rock which is against the glass.





			
				Tom said:
			
		

> ...I'd put the front left rock kinda front-mid right if that makes sense


No way guys, it stays. Don't touch my front left rock   Seriously though. I will wait for the HC to fill in, and I can always move it later. I like the idea of having something against the glass on the left side, it "unbalances" the composition a bit.


----------



## YzemaN (14 Nov 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*



			
				keymaker said:
			
		

> Don't touch my front left rock   Seriously though. I will wait for the HC to fill in, and I can always move it later. I like the idea of having something against the glass on the left side, it "unbalances" the composition a bit.


  
I agree. I can quickly become too boxed-in in a small tank like that. This seems to strech the scape a bit.
The tank is turning out beautifully, I can't believe these are the same rocks I commented on earlier.


----------



## keymaker (17 Dec 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

A friend came over with a Nikon camera and some superb macro lens and we took a couple of close-ups of the Rasbora Brigittae.















title: "Lost"


----------



## Thomas McMillan (18 Dec 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Nice! I'm not a huge fan of gumis and rocks, but I love this tank. Looks really natural and unique, well done.


----------



## GreenNeedle (18 Dec 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

I'm with Thomas above. lol (Not in that way of course )

Not a huge fan of black rocks, backgrounds, or substrate but I quite like the clean look of this tank.

Nice journal, has been a good read (Just read it from the start for the first time)  Keep it updated.  Will be watching the progress for sure.

AC


----------



## keymaker (18 Dec 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Thanks for the appreciation, Thomas and AC!

I hope to be able to post a completely algae-free full tank shot in a couple of weeks. After redoing the scape earlier I had serious K deficiency problems because of the low levels in TPN+. (Who thought you cannot even trust Tropica with their relative amounts...)

Things look much improved after I started adding additional K2SO4 and the staghorn problem I posted earlier is gone. Switching on the CO2 a lot earlier in the morning seemed to help alot too... So now all I have to do is keep it nice and clean and wait for the diatoms to disappear. Will keep you guys updated.

Until then, I wish a Marry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all UKAPS readers!
May the force of the Aquascaping Gods guide your path!


----------



## keymaker (26 Dec 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

We visited Vienna to get in the Christmas mood, and what did I come back with? Two pots of Tropica HC and the carnivorous Utricularia Graminifolia.  The leaves for the Tropica HC is at least twice the size of the ones in my tank. Never seen such big leaves before, I am truly amazed.

And what did I come home to? The luminaire for one of my two 6W T5's - the one lighting the BG is caput. Shops closed, the photon torpedoes will have to operate on 70% for now. 











As you can see on the pictures, the Diatoms are still not gone. Not too worried about them though. I had them with all my fresh setups, and they were all gone after a couple of months.

What worries me though is how to clean the rocks. They are so deeply embedded into the substrate that taking them out for cleaning is out of question. I would really like to preserve their original black and white look. Lesson learned here, next time I will put some plastic on the bottom of the tank up to the gravel surface and place the rocks on them. Will make life much easier.


----------



## aaronnorth (27 Dec 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

to clean the rocks use a toothbrush, or even easier an electric toothbrush.


----------



## keymaker (27 Dec 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*



			
				aaronnorth said:
			
		

> to clean the rocks use a toothbrush, or even easier an electric toothbrush.


What a great idea! Thanks mate.


----------



## viktorlantos (27 Dec 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*



			
				keymaker said:
			
		

> A friend came over with a Nikon camera and some superb macro lens and we took a couple of close-ups of the Rasbora Brigittae.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



wow! great shots! what lens you used? i plan to get some macro to my EOS450. very nice photos really.
i am glad i found you here too keymaker 

your mate,
Viktor


----------



## viktorlantos (27 Dec 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Where did you get those plants in Vienna? Zierfisch?

looks amazing!


----------



## keymaker (27 Dec 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Szia, Viktor. Nice to see another fellow Hungarian aquascaper here. One more step and we'll beat the "Svenska medborgare" in numbers here. Heja Ungern.  

To answer your questions: I really do not know what kind of macro lens my friend, Nigro had. You'll have to ask him on his blog. You know the way there. 

Yes, you can get Dennerle plants at Zierfisch, but I bought these at Zoo Exquisit, a small shop near the Vienna Ring.


----------



## viktorlantos (28 Dec 2008)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*



			
				keymaker said:
			
		

> Szia, Viktor. Nice to see another fellow Hungarian aquascaper here. One more step and we'll beat the "Svenska medborgare" in numbers here. Heja Ungern.
> 
> To answer your questions: I really do not know what kind of macro lens my friend, Nigro had. You'll have to ask him on his blog. You know the way there.
> 
> Yes, you can get Dennerle plants at Zierfisch, but I bought these at Zoo Exquisit, a small shop near the Vienna Ring.



Thanks for the warm words buddy. 
Did not know he was Nigro. But will check with him then 

Thanks also on the shop info. i know a couple shops in Austria, but this was new to me. Will check them sometime.
Too bad that they did not have any webshop. I order a lot this way.


----------



## keymaker (12 Jan 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Just got back from Stockholm... I could not resist to some beautiful Rasbora Maculatus (best I've seen so far -- ever) and brought them home in a thermos on the plane. They now swim happily with the Rasbora Brigittae from Vienna. International crew. 

I can happily report that after almost a year of continuous efforts and experimenting, the tank is virtually algae-free!!! As Neo says in the Matrix: "I know kung fu". 8)


----------



## samc (12 Jan 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

the tank looks real good how did u get the fish back ok its illegal isnt it? lol


----------



## GreenNeedle (12 Jan 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

I was thinking that...flask...non sealed container....you terrorist you. lol

AC


----------



## Goodygumdrops (12 Jan 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

They used to make you drink liquids to prove they were ok,baby formula etc


----------



## keymaker (12 Jan 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Well I know you guys are looking for some good smuggling stories here , but I'll have to disappoint you:
I simply checked them in, in my big bag (with a "handle with care" sign on it, hoping the guys will not play ball with the luggage - as they usually do).


----------



## GreenNeedle (12 Jan 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Or leave them behind like an airline did to me last year.  Had to wait for over a day to see my bags!!!!  Risky business

AC


----------



## keymaker (12 Jan 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Well, this was WizzAir (discount airline), flying from a remote terminal in a small village some 100 km-s from Stockholm, that has almost no traffic and I could actually see the luggage being lifted into the plane just a couple of meters from where I checked it in (no other flights leaving or checking in). I have been back and forth to Stockholm many times, and I know there's virtually no way to loose a luggage under these conditions.

But I agree with you, I would't do it on a regular flight. Too much risk.


----------



## viktorlantos (12 Jan 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

keymaker, i love the last few shots about your Tank. looks much larger than it is. really superb photos and feeling. congrat buddy!


----------



## keymaker (13 Jan 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Thanks, Viktor.


----------



## keymaker (19 Feb 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

I wonder if this tank is really featured under the "your tanks" section of the printed december PFK issue. If any of you guys happen to have a copy you do not need (and it is indeed in there), I would be enormously grateful if you could send it to Hungary. I am ready to pay double or triple price plus postage via bank transfer or western union. Money is not an issue here.


----------



## aaronnorth (20 Feb 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*



			
				keymaker said:
			
		

> I wonder if this tank is really featured under the "your tanks" section of the printed december PFK issue. If any of you guys happen to have a copy you do not need (and it is indeed in there), I would be enormously grateful if you could send it to Hungary. I am ready to pay double or triple price plus postage via bank transfer or western union. Money is not an issue here.



Why would it be in December if you uploaded it in January?


----------



## keymaker (20 Feb 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*



			
				aaronnorth said:
			
		

> Why would it be in December if you uploaded it in January?



You're right, a friend of mine ordered it from Feb., the issue he showed me did not have it, I thought I was looking at the January issue...

It's the Jan. issue then... The one I'm looking for. Thx.


----------



## TDI-line (20 Feb 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Wow, lovely tank Liza.


----------



## aaronnorth (20 Feb 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*



			
				keymaker said:
			
		

> aaronnorth said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Just had a look in Jan, Feb & March but i didnt see it - sorry.

I remeber seeing it in the newsletter


----------



## YzemaN (20 Feb 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*



			
				TDI-line said:
			
		

> Wow, lovely tank Liza.


(I think Liza is his daughter  )


----------



## TDI-line (20 Feb 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*



			
				YzemaN said:
			
		

> TDI-line said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Hey, i only read the title and look at the pictures.


----------



## YzemaN (20 Feb 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Pretty much what I do (at least in the journals section), but I just remembered from when the thread was started


----------



## keymaker (20 Feb 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Liza, well... It's her tank, after all, I just keep an eye on it for her...   

I guess I just have to live without the printed issue then. Thanks for looking it up Aaron.


----------



## LondonDragon (23 Mar 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*



			
				keymaker said:
			
		

> I guess I just have to live without the printed issue then. Thanks for looking it up Aaron.


Its in this months Issue


----------



## keymaker (24 Mar 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*



			
				LondonDragon said:
			
		

> keymaker said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh, great news! Thanks for the info Mate.
John has already offered to send it to me - you guys at UKAPS really rock!


----------



## keymaker (16 Aug 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

More than a year after it's launch Liza's famous (  ) old tank is going bye-bye. I managed to keep it pretty much algae-free for the past year except for some diatoms on the rock - due to the inadequate lighting spectrum of the 11W Tetra compact and 6W T5. I consider this to be a great thing, considering that keeping the balance in a Nano is always a challenge.

Good CO2 (and distribution), EI-based ferts and regular 80-90% water changes did the thing. What I'll do now is keep all the equipment but change the substrate, tank and lighting to ADA. The Seiryu rocks will be replaced with Hanko stones. 

Please let me know what you think of the three setups (the black gravel is only in for the hardscape arrangament):


----------



## Nelson (16 Aug 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

i love that stone.
No 3 for me but with the extra stone on the left from No 2.
but i know nothing  .


----------



## samc (16 Aug 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

i like the stone too   

i like the first one but they are all very similar


----------



## Stu Worrall (16 Aug 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

superb stone and great tank ebfore as I hadnt seen this thread before.  

first layout for me


----------



## aaronnorth (16 Aug 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

wow, impressive layout, #1 for me as it i like the rocks in the background which are like distant mountains


----------



## taylsimon (16 Aug 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Totally agreee #1 for me, the look like a mountain range in the distance, beautiful rocks.

Simon.


----------



## keymaker (16 Aug 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Thank you all! I like no. 1 too, so here's the deal:







(Stu, I have your 60cm as desktop background on my 24" - stunning!)


----------



## Fred Dulley (16 Aug 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Fantastic hardscape. A rocky mountain landscape in a tank.  8)


----------



## Stu Worrall (16 Aug 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*



			
				keymaker said:
			
		

> (Stu, I have your 60cm as desktop background on my 24" - stunning!)



wow! cheers keymaker   

Should have an update on that one soon. its had a big chop as it was getting too overgrown causing a lack of flow


----------



## flygja (19 Aug 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Those are some really nice rocks. My only comment is on the smallest 2 rocks, one in the front middle and one on the left. They're too small. They look good now, but once the plants have grown in, they will be totally covered. Even a HC carpet will cover it unless you meticulously trim trim trim all the time and keep it thin. 

Carrying fish from another country in a thermos, now that is something


----------



## Themuleous (19 Aug 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Nice scape, the big bold rocks should look cool once planted up 

Sam


----------



## keymaker (19 Aug 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*



			
				flygja said:
			
		

> (...)the smallest 2 rocks, one in the front middle and one on the left. They're too small. They look good now, but once the plants have grown in, they will be totally covered. Even a HC carpet will cover it unless you meticulously trim trim trim all the time and keep it thin.


Exactly! I was actually thinking of replacing them with slightly bigger ones as the FG fills in. I only used these particular pebbles to accentuate those points in the empty scape. I have about 30 kg of Hanko stones available for this 3-4 kg. scape.


----------



## zig (20 Aug 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Great rocks, exceptionally good. Nice work on the hardscape so far. I will be interested to see it planted/finished. One to watch for sure.


----------



## Superman (23 Aug 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Wowaweewa, some stonking rocks there.
Where did you get the hanko stones from?


----------



## LondonDragon (24 Aug 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Now were can I get rocks like those??? hehe truly amazing rock work  congrats


----------



## keymaker (30 Aug 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Cheers guys, thanks!

Here's the deal with Hanko stones: I just got into my car and drove about 10 hours (no, actually 12-13 hours, two days) east to the Carphatians in Romania. I spent 8 days there to visit some really remote locations recommended by some exceptionally dedicated local geologists. I was looking for some stones that would be volcanic but also rugged and interesting shape - which is a very rare thing. 

Problem is that nature (wind and water) forms the most interesting shapes out of loose-structured rock. Like chalk. This is mostly unusable for our purposes for it hardens the water too much. Even Seiryu stones are chalky - just not that much.

The other problem is that most volcanic rocks just erode to dull shapes. Not the Hanko stones though. They have some narrow chalky veins that were mostly washed away in time and that gives a most interesting look. Believe me - it's very rare. I was extremely lucky to find them in the distant forests of Romania - far away from civilization.



			
				keymaker said:
			
		

> Just got back from Stockholm... I could not resist to some beautiful Rasbora Maculatus (best I've seen so far -- ever) and brought them home in a thermos on the plane.





			
				SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> I was thinking that...flask...non sealed container....you terrorist you. lol



So I took some 50 kg-s back in my car - hoping customs will not consider it "theft of national resources" or something. My second fishkeeping-related "crime" in a year - where does that take me? Backsliding? 

I plan to get the permits and start selling them later in our webshop. Difficulty is that the location (I can only find it with GPS) is really far away even from the nearest dirt-roads. Plus I have to carefully hand-pick these from a larger area - covering several hills. So it's gonna take some time, money and sherpas to get it - but it'll happen eventually and will be available for anybody who is inspired by the Hanko style.  

Here's the the huge 33 kg and 45 cm high stone that I've been carrying and dragging down sweating for ages. You can see the actual color when wet. It's gonna go into my future 180 cm optiwhite tank. If I live to see it .


----------



## JamesM (30 Aug 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Wow  That's some stunning stone!


----------



## samc (30 Aug 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

awsome stone!

i am looking for huge stone but not many places to it here


----------



## aaronnorth (2 Sep 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

wow,


----------



## keymaker (6 Nov 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

OK, so I've never ever dedicated so much thought and DIY skills-practice to any tank component as to aeration lately.

Looks like I'm stuck here:

There is no technology in the tank except the glass in- and outflow. This obviously means I have to introduce air through the external filter hosing. Let me tell you what my problems are:

1. Air pumps are too noisy. I tried Tetra, Ferplast, Schego (on timer at night). The later is the best of all, but still too noisy for my daughter sleeping right next to the tank. An 50 lph Ferplast would be ok soundwise, but the filter pressure is too strong for this size of an airpump and no bubbles enter through the Tee on the filter hose.
2. The AquaMedic 12/16 and 4/6 Tee is garbage. The 4/6 end is made of soft plastic, I already broke 2 Tees in the process of dealing with hose changes - so I gave this up. Plus it produces bigger bubbles that make too much noise when entering into the tank and coming to the surface.
3. Tried a normal 12/16 Tee with an airstone glued to one end - same result: bubbles too big - too much noise.
4. I tried many products and there is no way to use an air-pump with a CO2 diffuser (internal or external of any kind) to produce smaller bubbles. They are obviously designed for bigger pressures.

Silence is the most important issue here.
Any ideas? Any products you recommend (like an external O2 reactor)?


----------



## keymaker (7 Nov 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*



			
				keymaker said:
			
		

> Silence is the most important (...)


I did not mean silence on this forum. 
It looks like there is no solution on the market for this......


----------



## JamesM (7 Nov 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

I think people are still drooling over that stone, I know I am


----------



## Steve Smith (7 Nov 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Holy moly!  That's an awesome stone!

What are you trying to do with the air pumps/equipment?


----------



## John Starkey (7 Nov 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

wow liza i love it,every time i see all these great nanos on here i cant make up my mind what to in mine,
superb,john.


----------



## Maurits (7 Nov 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

There are no silence air pumps, only some of them make less noise than others.

The only thing you can do is take a box, fill this completely with 1 or 2 mm gravel and bury your air pump in the gravel. You will see the noise is almost gone.

Maurits


----------



## keymaker (7 Nov 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*



			
				JamesM said:
			
		

> I think people are still drooling over that stone, I know I am


That's exactly what I am doing too...  It's just that making a 180 cm tank called "without compromises" for it, well, thats an expensive venture. My plans: bottom drilled opti-white 180x60x60 tank with 3x Eheim 2080, ADA light, AS Amazonia, auto fert dosing, CO2, etc. About EUR 3600 if I do everything as I planned.  Don't tell my wife. 



			
				SteveUK said:
			
		

> What are you trying to do with the air pumps/equipment?


Simple: nighttime aeration. On timer, through the external filter hosing. The quiet and professional solution is not easy though.



			
				john starkey said:
			
		

> wow liza i love it,every time i see all these great nanos on here i cant make up my mind what to in mine


Thanks John (Liza is my daugter...  - we've been talking about this here, that there are some - like me - who only look at the pictures.   



			
				Maurits said:
			
		

> (...)take a box, fill this completely with 1 or 2 mm gravel and bury your air pump in the gravel.


Thanks for the idea Mate, I will try it!

Now there's only one question: how to "mist" the air into the filter hose? Big bubbles = too much noise in the tank.


----------



## JamesM (7 Nov 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Boyu Diffuser?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CO2-Carbon-Dioxid ... 120wt_1165

Very effective ime  

If the pump in the gravel doesn't work, what about placing the pump outside the room, or in a closet? The airline could be quite easy to hide and protect within some trunking...


----------



## Steve Smith (7 Nov 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

And airline is very cheap too of course, making a several metre long run of it no issue in that respect


----------



## keymaker (7 Nov 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*



			
				JamesM said:
			
		

> Boyu Diffuser?


I have something similar. Not even a bigger 500 lph airpump is strong enough to push the air through it.

Yes, I have been considering moving the pump to another room if the gravel solution is not effective, but the main issue is noise from bubble size here.


----------



## JamesM (7 Nov 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

ah yes, sorry. I've seen people using cigarette filters on co2 setups, but again, air might struggle to get through...Got me thinking now...


----------



## JamesM (7 Nov 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

You guys are the premier ADA dealers, so what about using a fancy ADA Air Diffuser?


----------



## keymaker (7 Nov 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*



			
				JamesM said:
			
		

> You guys are the premier ADA dealers, so what about using a fancy ADA Air Diffuser?


Not even ADA have a solution for everything.  They have internal air diffusers.

I want external... No tech in the tank except glass in- and outflow.


----------



## JamesM (7 Nov 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Well the simplest method would be to use something like this: http://www.petstore.com/Aqua_Medic_Redu ... AC-vi.html

And place something like the cigarette filter, cotton or fine mesh in the airline... I'm surprised there aren't any inline air diffusers out there actually  

Something like a mini compressor for tattooing or airbrushing could also work for the pump, but the silent ones cost a fortune afaik.


----------



## keymaker (8 Nov 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*



			
				JamesM said:
			
		

> Well the simplest method would be to use something like this: http://www.petstore.com/Aqua_Medic_Redu ... AC-vi.html


That's the exact garbage material that I broke two times when messing with the hoses. Plus for some reason the regular 16/22 hose just keeps leaking on both ends. I had to glue the hose to it and fasten it with plastic "whats-the-english-expression-for-it". Here's what I did:







 Garbage. Aqua Medic Tee = never again. 



			
				JamesM said:
			
		

> I'm surprised there aren't any inline air diffusers out there actually


Yeppp, surprising indeed. But if we count that cheaper but good quality plastic in-line CO2 diffusers only appeared about a year ago to offer alternative to the easily broken Cal Aqua glass ones - then we must really hit the alarms to lobby for in-line airing solutions!



			
				JamesM said:
			
		

> Something like a mini compressor for tattooing or airbrushing could also work for the pump, but the silent ones cost a fortune afaik.


Never thought of that one, money is never issue with me so I'll check to see if I can find good and silent ones. Would be simple and convenient to put a Tee on the CO2 hose and introduce air into the CO2 diffuser with a check-valve at night. Thanks for the tip.  :idea:


----------



## Nick16 (8 Nov 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

have you tried something like this? 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CO2-Carbon-Di...QQptZUK_Pet_Supplies_Fish?hash=item19b79d147b

i use it on a TT ex1200 and its a good'un. 
keeps it all out of the tank.


----------



## keymaker (8 Nov 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

Nick, can you use that CO2 diffuser externally? Is your airpump strong enough to push the air through it? Most diffusers need stronger pressure than what an airpump produces.


----------



## JamesM (8 Nov 2009)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

You can use them externally yes, but I don't think a normal air pump would be strong enough. A compressor might be though...


----------



## keymaker (2 Mar 2010)

*Re: Liza's 20L Nano Tank*

UPDATE:

I started a new tank on th 29th of Dec 2009. It looked like this after one month:











The tank as of today (3 months):

X07 and X08 - img temporarily removed

*GEAR:*
- ADA Cube Garden Mini M tank - 20 liters.
- ADA Solar Mini M light 5,11 WPG. On timer 16:00-23:00-ig (7 hours).
- ADA Aqua Soil Africana substrate - 2*3 liters.
- Tropica plant substrate - approx. 1 liter.
- ADA Bacter Balls in the substrate.
- ADA Dragon - Ohko stones -  3 (approx. 5-6 kg.)
- Cal Aqua Nano glass filter in- and outlet.
- ADA transparent thermometer for 5mm glass
- Eheim Professionel 2222 external filter - 500 lph. 25x.
- Transparent filter tubing
- Eheim Substrat Pro biological filter media, 1 liter.
- ADA Bio Rio biological filter media, 0.6 liter.
- ADA NA Carbon activated carbon filter media, approx. 0,4 liter
- Hydor ETH 200W external heater (12/16 tubing), on 26 degrees.
- Pressurized CO2 bottle - 2 kgs.
- Papillon check valve.
- Aqua Medic solenoid valve on timer. CO2 on daily from 07:00 to 22:45.
- GreenWorks CO2 check valve.
- Green Aqua bubble counter - blue. 60 bpm.
- ADA and Dennerle drop checkers.
- Green Aqua CO2 indicator solution Lime-green.
- GreenWorks transparent CO2 tubing.
- External CO2 diffuser on the filter return pipe. Cheap and efficient stuff.
- Schego Prima airpump on filter hose tee.

*FISH / INVERTS:*
- 3 Otocinclus Affinis
- 7 Iriatherina Werneri
- 9 Red Cherry Shrimp







*Plants:*
- Lilaeopsis Brasiliensis
- Hydrocotyle verticillata
- Hemianthus Callitrichoides
- Glossostigma Elitanoides
- Echinodorus Tenellus
- Anubias Barteri var. Nana
- Microsorum pteropus 'Windelov'
- Vesicularia dubyana "Christmas" moss

*DOSING / MAINTENANCE:*
- Water change with Easy Life FFM, 50% weekly.
- 2 drops of ADA Green Bacter after WC.
- Daily 1 ml. Easy Carbo
- Daily 1 ml Green Aqua Macro and Micro
- Daily 10-12 drops of KH2PO4 solution
- Daily 4 drops of ADA ECA - testing.
- Daily 4 drops of ADA Phyton Git - testing.

*Photos:*
Canon EOS 450D with Canon EFS IS 17-55, 2.8 lens. 

More images, links, etc. in my Hungarian Aquascapers' Forum journal.


----------



## Nelson (2 Mar 2010)

that looks fantastic.also love Iriatherina Werneri.
did you ever plant the Hanko stone tank.never saw any pictures.


----------



## Steve Smith (2 Mar 2010)

Really nice!  Loving the Anubias, it's a great focal point


----------



## keymaker (2 Mar 2010)

Thanks guys.


			
				nelson said:
			
		

> did you ever plant the Hanko stone tank.never saw any pictures.


Here. I did not really like the "dark mood of it", so I took it apart after these pictures:


----------



## Steve Smith (2 Mar 2010)

That's really cool   That big rock gives the whole thing a lot of tension!  I love that stone.  I wish I could get hold of some nice stone like that.


----------



## Nelson (2 Mar 2010)

keymaker said:
			
		

> Here. I did not really like the "dark mood of it", so I took it apart after these pictures:


cheers  .i love the way the stone contrasts with the plants.still,new tanks great.


----------



## keymaker (7 Mar 2010)

A quick update. Tank shot after trimming.


----------



## LondonDragon (7 Mar 2010)

Nice photography, the tank is looking great  
Love the Rainbows, I am going to replace my Bosemani with those


----------



## Steve Smith (7 Mar 2010)

Looking great   The layering of the leaves on that anubias is perfect!


----------



## keymaker (7 Mar 2010)

LondonDragon said:
			
		

> Nice photography, the tank is looking great
> Love the Rainbows, I am going to replace my Bosemani with those


Cheers Paulo. This 17-55 Canon lens is a bless. I love these fish too, I just realized that with more time spent in the fish-keeping business I kinda started to appreciate the more subtle colors and sophistication of fish. I guess that applies to us all.  



			
				SteveUK said:
			
		

> Looking great   The layering of the leaves on that anubias is perfect!


Thx Steve. With all you mods posting here I start to feel embarrassed though.


----------



## keymaker (15 Mar 2010)

A couple of close-ups of rainbows and Red Cherry shrimp:


----------



## LondonDragon (15 Mar 2010)

Nice shots  I see what you mean about the quality of the Rainbows I must say they are very nice looking, but the ones I managed to get are something else


----------



## LondonDragon (10 Apr 2010)

Just got my PFK mag this morning and a nice suprise to see your tank in it Balazs  
Congrats and nice read the interview  Who's the "Master" now


----------



## Garuf (10 Apr 2010)

Very nice indeed, I love that the anubias is the focal point for once rather than a supporting character, very pretty indeed.


----------



## keymaker (14 Apr 2010)

Cheers Guys, thanks. Paulo...  
My copy did not arrive yet, but I am really interested to see how the tank images look on the printed page.  8)


----------

