# Calling for help, starting to be tired !!!



## zanguli-ya-zamba (18 Feb 2014)

Hi guys,

I am again in an aquascaping blues !!!!!  
I am very lost guys, after writing my first aquascaping blues thread, I decided to go for a new scape without informing the forum or starting a journal to be sure to succes before showing something.
So I cleaned the tank, the filter, the sand, the rocks, and wen for a very simple scape. I made this choice as I did last for easy flow and distribution. Now the tank is planted for more than two weeks. I can clearly see some CO2 issue. But I don't understand why. 

Filtration is done with a FX5 and steel flow pipe of NA. On my last scape flow had too much pressure (plant were a bit rocking like a flag in a storm), so this time I decided to go with a less stronger flow. But I can tell that flow is veery good, because all CO2 bubbles are push in all area of the tank, without missing any spot, and all the plants are slowly moving in the flow. I am pretty sure that my flow is good, because when I started this hobby, my tank had very poor flow, battling with hair algae etc ... and for a long time I have search how to optimize the flow until I have found the good flow and hair algae and other distribution problems were "clean". Even when I watch video of other scape that are stunning, flow is as good as mine or some even much slower !!

Lights are only 2x36 w at 29 -cm from the water surface and on for 5 hours only. This is not a lot of light at all it is very low light, and photoperiod is quite short. So I don't think it's a matter of strong light etc...

Since the first day CO2 have been set up, with a very nice drop of the Ph !!
Before lights on, ph 5,2
45 min CO2 on, ph 4,1
1,5 hour CO2 on, Ph 3,7 and it stays there for the whole photoperiode. So I can assume that injection rate is good, and this from the first day.
Next day before lights on Ph is came back at 5,2, so this means degassing is ok.

So how come I have CO2 issue ??? I am very lost and starting to drop my arms down again.
I can also see diatom algae coming back, it is starting to cover the sand and some leaves , some of you will tell me this is a sign of too much light but how come with 200 L and only 72w over it can be too strong ?? 
Water change is 60% 2 x per week.

My last option is that maybe, it's because when I do water change I directly use water from the tap, without, living the water to rest for 24 hours. But before I have never had issues doing that.

The plants that are melting are : Monte Carlo (can be grow in lowtech tank)
													Alternanthera Mini
													Ammania Bonsai
Can it be possible that light is too low ?? I don't think so.
After more than a year in this community I have learn soooo much and I have the answer for every thing but anything is going right !! 
I am lost and almost to the point to give up 
Why I was having so much success when I knew nothing about aquascping nuking 3x54w over 250L
and bad flow and bad co2 management ? 

Please guys help, I need your support and help.

a desperate Zanguli


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (18 Feb 2014)

I almost want to cry when the lights turn on every day lol


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## Fern (18 Feb 2014)

Oh dear zanguli *big hug* I don't know what to suggest, I'm no expert, but I couldn't ignore your call for support, and just to say, don't give up!


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## Edvet (18 Feb 2014)

Ferts?
Do you know if you have Chloride in the tap water? Aerating it for 24 hours before using it will degas that, maybe the watercompany changed something, they usually don't give notification of changes.


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## pepedopolous (18 Feb 2014)

Hang on in there! Keep calm and Estimative Index!


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (18 Feb 2014)

Maybe Chloride yes but before when they were using it you could clearly smell it when opening the tap. since more than a year I can smell nothing.
Maybe someone can tell us if chloride can do structural issues (melt ...) Darrel ? Clive ? 

My truck company use to transport Chloride and sulfate for national water company but since more than a year we don't do that any more. 

guys I am so desperate


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## NatureBoy (18 Feb 2014)

...maybe it's time to take the other pill, and go back to what you were doing.

Diatom algae is usually an initial stages thing, some substrates seem to increase the chances of getting it, but I wouldn't be worried so long as plant growth is good, and you have an algae crew.

The main downer is plants melting...could this be emmersed to submerged transition, etc? is there sign of growth too? Look for positives, and move towards them.

No growth / pearling with CO2 injection implies that the plants are missing ferts or aren't given enough light / long enough to kickstart the photosynthetic machinery. I use a 10 hr photoperiod, get a bit of algae for sure (I'm currently having fun with cladophora), but never get a wilting plant, and the plants fizz like champagne for the last 4 hours. (I have 2 39wt T5s 15cm above a 270 l 22 inch deep tank)

I'm guessing you're using RO / v soft water to get that pH profile with gas injection, are you sure you are remineralising your water with calcium, magnesium, etc.
What about the NPK? (I'd also be a little concerned that some plant enzymes / symbiotic bacteria may be deactivated in very acidic waters)

I'd say go with your gut instincts on this.


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (18 Feb 2014)

Ela pepe,
I am dosing EI even more than what's in the tutorial


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## NatureBoy (18 Feb 2014)

zanguli-ya-zamba said:


> Ela pepe,
> I am dosing EI even more than what's in the tutorial


 
Then if it's not the CO2 and it's not the Ferts...then it's the lights....


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## Edvet (18 Feb 2014)

Just a stab in the dark: is it possible your plants were somehow damaged while getting to you?


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (18 Feb 2014)

NatureBoy said:


> ...maybe it's time to take the other pill, and go back to what you were doing.
> 
> Diatom algae is usually an initial stages thing, some substrates seem to increase the chances of getting it, but I wouldn't be worried so long as plant growth is good, and you have an algae crew.
> 
> ...


 

Hi nature boy,

thanks for your answer mate !! unfortunately I don't have an algae crew, first because I can't find these type of fish or shrimp in congo. Second is that I want to know how to grow plant before doing plant and fish.

The first two weeks plant were growing, and than it's stop growing and start melting ( I have change nothing). But for example the leaves that were growing on the Monte Carlo was tiny, smaller than HC, I have the same phenomenon on the hydrocotile tripartita, ammania. Maybe light is not enough ??? 
I think you could be right on that.

regarding ferts. Where I live tap water is very very very soft. So Two time a week when I dose macro I put MgSO4 and Ca. I never miss it. PO4 and KNO3 is dose more than in the tutorial. Same for trace mate.

The plant that is suffering more is Monte Carlo, and it's the plant that have the best position regarding CO2 and flow.

Guys do you think that Only 5 hours of 72w is too short or too low ? I am starting to think that. But if I increase light the diatom will go even stronger !!!

thank for helping !!!!!


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (18 Feb 2014)




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## NatureBoy (18 Feb 2014)

Hi Cheers for letting me know how the new growth looks.

Sounds like a calcium deficiency, not light related. My water is moderately hard and has about 80ppm calcium, 4ppm magnesium and 2ppm potassium.

So I'm not used to remineralising soft / RO water so cannot comment on a successful formula, but Victor Lantos certainly does with great success. Maybe double check his fert routines and see if you can copy it?

 (I can't help but think that you have calcium locked out by too much K relative to Ca but that's just me! Excess of K, Na, Ca, Mg... fact or myth? | Page 2 | UK Aquatic Plant Society:

cheers


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (18 Feb 2014)

NatureBoy said:


> Hi Cheers for letting me know how the new growth looks.
> 
> Sounds like a calcium deficiency, not light related. My water is moderately hard and has about 80ppm calcium, 4ppm magnesium and 2ppm potassium.
> 
> ...


 

Thanks mate !!! 
I thought that this was a myth. but I will read again this thread. But I am sure that master Clive told us it is a myth lol .

Maybe my dosing regime can help us. 

KNO3 --> 1/2 tsp 3 time a week (I put a bit more of 1/2)
KH2PO4 --> 1/3 tsp (a bit less) 3 time a week
MgSO4 --> 1/2 tsp 2 time a week (1st after WC)
Ca --> 1/2 tsp 2 time a week (1st after WC)

Trace --> 1/3 tsp 3 time a week. 

........


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## NatureBoy (18 Feb 2014)

this is just me...and we're all entitled to our own opinions...but I'd go way easier on the KH2PO4, say just 1/4 teaspoon max split over the week. Get Magnesium Nitrate and Calcium Nitrate and aim for 5ppm - 10ppm Nitrate, more calcium, less magnesium and less potassium. 

The trace I'd scale way back on too. What substrate do you use?

(...all I know is only bad things happen when I up the K, and I tend to trust my own judgement on that....I'll leave it at that)

Clive is gonna kill me when he gets home


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (18 Feb 2014)

NatureBoy said:


> this is just me...and we're all entitled to our own opinions...but I'd go way easier on the KH2PO4, say just 1/4 teaspoon max split over the week. Get Magnesium Nitrate and Calcium Nitrate and aim for 5ppm - 10ppm Nitrate, more calcium, less magnesium and less potassium.
> 
> The trace I'd scale way back on too. What substrate do you use?
> 
> ...


 
The substrate is just plain sand of congo river !! 
We will see what Clive will say. maybe he will kill us hahaha. But I remember Tom and Clive saying that Ratio doesn't matter and that you just need to be sure that ferts have to be sufficient for the plant demand. So I assume that even if you dose more than what is recommended it wont be harmful for plants. 
Lets see what they say.

cheers


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (18 Feb 2014)

As the Monte Carlo is melting from the bottom, should I trim ot a replant the tops that are alive ? Or is it a waist of time ? 

cheers


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## NatureBoy (18 Feb 2014)

...I _know_ what they'll say.

I also know that although you can grow in sand it's not the best media for planting. You're making life hard on yourself by using sand along with the soft water. Would you plant a houseplant in sand or soil? same with aquatic plants, soils and clays hold onto cations...then anions...like a magnet close to plant roots, and have abundant trace elements too...it gives you loads more room for error. Sand dosen't do that, incidentally sand is heavily linked to diatom algae, something to do with silicates perhaps.

Switch to good ol mud, that lovely deep red stuff you have in Congo would be awesome! Look at the verdant growth coming from that rich clay top soil...can you imagine that plant life growing in sand?


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## terry82517 (18 Feb 2014)

Diatoms....silicates....ratios......... Can of worms opened


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## dw1305 (18 Feb 2014)

Hi all, I'd definitely lengthen the photo-period. I always use 12 hours light, and just up the plant mass when I have a very bright light. 





NatureBoy said:


> incidentally sand is heavily linked to diatom algae, something to do with silicates perhaps.


 No, that ones a myth. Silica sand is inert and Diatoms can only make their frustules from silicic acid (H4SiO4), details here <High amount of silicate in tap water | UK Aquatic Plant Society> & <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/combining-chemical-filtration-media.20015/>. 


NatureBoy said:


> You're making life hard on yourself by using sand along with the soft water. Would you plant a houseplant in sand or soil? same with aquatic plants, soils and clays hold onto cations...then anions...like a magnet close to plant roots, and have abundant trace elements too...it gives you loads more room for error.


 I like a substrate with a bit of AEC/CEC, but if you use EI the substrate doesn't make much difference, you can't really use a terrestrial plant analogy, you are in an entirely hydroponic system with all the nutrients non-limiting and in solution, so substrate really doesn't matter.





NatureBoy said:


> that lovely deep red stuff you have in Congo would be awesome


The red Congo clay soil won't actually have many nutrients (but it does have high CEC), it is "laterite" and all the soluble compounds have been leached out, leaving the insoluble aluminium, silica and iron oxides/hydroxides.

cheers Darrel


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## ceg4048 (18 Feb 2014)

Thomas you need to add more CO2. It's that simple. I recall your water supply is very soft, so just aim for a bigger pH drop. That's all you need to do mate. It's not rocket science.

Cheers,


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## Tim Harrison (18 Feb 2014)

dw1305 said:


> The red Congo clay soil won't actually have many nutrients (but it does have high CEC), it is "laterite" and all the soluble compounds have been leached out, leaving the insoluble aluminium, silica and iron oxides/hydroxides.cheers Darrel


 
Yup most of the nutrients will be rapidly recycled and stored in the biomass...but like Darrel also said the photoperiod is a little short.


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## NatureBoy (18 Feb 2014)

wait...is EI working here or not? This should be a classic EI success story: lowish light, high CO2, maxed out ferts...


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## NatureBoy (18 Feb 2014)

terry82517 said:


> Diatoms....silicates....ratios......... Can of worms opened


 
I think I managed to do it all in the same post!


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## ceg4048 (18 Feb 2014)

Melting plants are caused by poor CO2 and has nothing to do with EI. Poor CO2 is the cause of 95% of the problems out there. EI cannot fix that. Only good CO2 can fix it.

Cheers,


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## NatureBoy (18 Feb 2014)

fair play, if you don't have livestock in there the first and easiest thing would be to crank up the CO2 and see...then up the photoperiod...or do both at the same time, all that might happen is the plants start growing!


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (19 Feb 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> Thomas you need to add more CO2. It's that simple. I recall your water supply is very soft, so just aim for a bigger pH drop. That's all you need to do mate. It's not rocket science.
> 
> Cheers,


 
Hi Clive,

thanks for your answer, should I increase the injection rate on one shot ? or should I go slowly to not stress the metabolism inside the plant ?
I know I ask a lot, but should I go for a drop of more than 2 ph point ? 
When I degas water I have a Ph of 7,3, is this base from where I have drop the ph. Because before CO2 is on in my tank ph is 5,2. So which one should be the base ?
7,3 or 5,2 ??
As soon as I arrive at home I will crank the CO2, and cross finger. I don't care I don't have any live stock (even snail lol) I want to grow plant before going back to fish.

What about photoperiod ? should I go for 6 hours now or I stay to 5 hours. 

I know the answer but I would like to ask again. Do you think that on 72w at 30 cm from the water surface for 200 L (90x45x50 cm) is enough to grow plant  ???


cheers


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (19 Feb 2014)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, I'd definitely lengthen the photo-period. I always use 12 hours light, and just up the plant mass when I have a very bright light. No, that ones a myth. Silica sand is inert and Diatoms can only make their frustules from silicic acid (H4SiO4), details here <High amount of silicate in tap water | UK Aquatic Plant Society> & <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/combining-chemical-filtration-media.20015/>.  I like a substrate with a bit of AEC/CEC, but if you use EI the substrate doesn't make much difference, you can't really use a terrestrial plant analogy, you are in an entirely hydroponic system with all the nutrients non-limiting and in solution, so substrate really doesn't matter.The red Congo clay soil won't actually have many nutrients (but it does have high CEC), it is "laterite" and all the soluble compounds have been leached out, leaving the insoluble aluminium, silica and iron oxides/hydroxides.
> 
> cheers Darrel


 
Hi Darrel 

thank you for you in put !
I wanted to know why you suggest me to up my photoperiod ? do you think that because of the low light I have 72 w over 200 L (90x45x50cm) is not enough powerful to have a good start in the photosynthesis process. So lengthen the photoperiod of one or two hour could help this process. I am just curious about everything haha . 


cheers


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## NatureBoy (19 Feb 2014)

zanguli-ya-zamba said:


> Hi Clive,
> 
> thanks for your answer, should I increase the injection rate on one shot ? or should I go slowly to not stress the metabolism inside the plant ?
> I know I ask a lot, but should I go for a drop of more than 2 ph point ?
> ...


 
Hi

Just to be clear you can degass your aquarium water and it will be 7.3? So the drop to pH 3.9 is purely CO2 related?

This is weird...the pH of carbonic acid at normal atmospheric pressures is about 5.7, Only under high pressure like in a soda bottle can the pH fall lower due to CO2...it's a weak acid

At pH 5.2 and even with zero carbonate I'd say CO2 was maxed out...


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## ceg4048 (19 Feb 2014)

zanguli-ya-zamba said:


> thanks for your answer, should I increase the injection rate on one shot ? or should I go slowly to not stress the metabolism inside the plant ?


Hi Thomas,
					  Going higher in CO2 is never a problem for plants. Going down is the problem. They are CO2 addicts, so it's never a problem to add more. Drop the pH by WHATEVER VALUE IT TAKES TO ARREST THE POOR CO2.

I cannot really say why your CO2 is ineffective mate. It's possible that Congolese weather is too warm (I don't know that for sure. It's just a possibility).

If the bulbs are 30cm from the water and if the tank is 50cm tall  then the largest distance possible is 80cm, which is about 32 inches. Multiply by 2 bulbs and that brings you just into the pink area on the PAR chart. Probably your distance is less than 80cm if you have substrate, so this is not a problem at all.

If you want to increase the photoperiod you can go to 8 hours, but I believe, fundamentally, that the problems are occurring at lights on. Inject more gas, especially if there is no livestock.

Any images of how the distribution is?

Cheers,


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (20 Feb 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> Hi Thomas,
> 
> 
> Cheers,


 

Hi Clive,

thank you for looking at the chart for me 
In fact I have totally forgot that few month ago I lowered my light to 20 cm. Bulb are exactly at 67 cm from the substrate where Monte Carlo is.
So I must be in the good range with the 2x36 w ??

Unfortunately yesterday I run out of CO2, but lucky me 3 days ago I send my spare FE for refile so I will get it today. 
You are telling me to crank CO2 so tonight I instal the bottle and pump the max CO2 I can. My only regards is about consumption, it will be expensive for me to do that, but I least I can do this for a month or two to get the plant set and than reduce slowly ? 

So I will increase photoperiod to 7 hours and crank CO2 up.
I really want to grow plant !!!! hahaha and I want to masteries how to grow these plant. before going in aesthetic scape and fish, I want to be sure that I know how to grow them, and not crossing finger every time I start a new scape !!!
I know the theory, the problems occurs when I have to apply it.  


I will try to take a small film like that you can how flow is. I can ensure you that flow is good. I will try to film this. 
thanks for your help and I will do my best.

cheers


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## dw1305 (20 Feb 2014)

Hi all,





zanguli-ya-zamba said:


> do you think that because of the low light I have 72 w over 200 L (90x45x50cm) is not enough powerful to have a good start in the photosynthesis process. So lengthen the photo-period of one or two hour could help this process.


 Assuming you have non-limiting CO2 and nutrients, there isn't really anything else left other than light.

If the plants are melting this means they are shedding leaves that they can't support, and the only potentially limiting nutrient you have is light.

If a leaf is shaded to the extent that it is a net consumer, rather than a net producer, the plant will shed it.

If a leaf is in the light, but it never gets above "light compensation point" <Compensation point - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia>, the plant will shed it. You can't compensate for this by a longer light period, the problem is *intensity* rather than *duration*.

You have added CO2 and all the nutrients (just check, they are  N, P, K, Mg, Ca, Fe, and micro-nutrients Cl,Si, S, Mo, Mn, Cu, Co, Zn, B, (Ni)) <Soil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia>).

I always run a 12 hour day, whatever light I have, and just add plant biomass until the tank is stable.

cheers Darrel


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## ceg4048 (20 Feb 2014)

zanguli-ya-zamba said:


> My only regards is about consumption, it will be expensive for me to do that, but I least I can do this for a month or two to get the plant set and than reduce slowly ?


Yes, that's a good plan. Also, as a temporary measure, you can cover the top of tank with acrylic or glass which will retain the gas more and will reduce the loss.

Cheers,


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## Ady34 (24 Feb 2014)

zanguli-ya-zamba said:


> I know the answer but I would like to ask again. Do you think that on 72w at 30 cm from the water surface for 200 L (90x45x50 cm) is enough to grow plant  ???


hi Zanguli, i have 78w over my 250l at a height of at least 30cm above the water surface. 8hr photoperiod.
Some of my plants at the substrate are heavily shaded and still grow, admittedly they are dark green mosses and pelias, but my staurogyne although not rapid is growing and green. I dont think light is your issue, like Clive says, structural failure is lack of c02.
I also have very soft water and struggle to get enough c02 in, i have chosen my plants to suit so i can have a little wriggle room regards flora and fauna. Its just too stressful  for me to have too much light and demanding plants. As soon as i use higher light i struggle to get the balance for healthy plants and happy fish, distribution is then the key and it must be spot on to succeed.
Just pump lots of c02 in while you can and see what happens. 
Good luck mate, dont give up!
Cheerio,
Ady.


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (24 Feb 2014)

Ady34 said:


> hi Zanguli, i have 78w over my 250l at a height of at least 30cm above the water surface. 8hr photoperiod.
> Some of my plants at the substrate are heavily shaded and still grow, admittedly they are dark green mosses and pelias, but my staurogyne although not rapid is growing and green. I dont think light is your issue, like Clive says, structural failure is lack of c02.
> I also have very soft water and struggle to get enough c02 in, i have chosen my plants to suit so i can have a little wriggle room regards flora and fauna. Its just too stressful  for me to have too much light and demanding plants. As soon as i use higher light i struggle to get the balance for healthy plants and happy fish, distribution is then the key and it must be spot on to succeed.
> Just pump lots of c02 in while you can and see what happens.
> ...



Hi mate 
how are you ?

thanks for your support !!
Since friday I have crank up the CO2, the only problem is the UP AQUA atomizer, when I want to pump big amount of CO2, instead of having a huge mist, I have a lot of big bubbles and medium bubbles. In this configuration the drop of ph is slower than when I have a medium injection rate of CO2. The other problem is that I can't get under 3,9 ph even when I inject way more CO2.
I have a ceramic diffuser of 5cm diameter and I am starting to think that I will have better result with it. what do you think about this ?
The UP AQUA is not faulty I have buy 3 of them and they all act the same way, even if I clean them.

This diatomic algae is starting to kill me, I am battling with it since more than a year in each tank.

I am a bit in a hurry I will ask some more help later lol
Cheers mate


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## Ady34 (24 Feb 2014)

Hi mate,
I'm good thanks 
yeah I'd try the larger diffuser and see how it performs, more mist is best as you've found as opposed to larger bubbles which find their way out of the water easier. Seems like the up aqua reaches its maximum output before you get the desired injection rate.
Give it a go and monitor ph.
Cheerio
Ady


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (25 Feb 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> Hi Thomas
> 
> If the bulbs are 30cm from the water and if the tank is 50cm tall  then the largest distance possible is 80cm, which is about 32 inches. Multiply by 2 bulbs and that brings you just into the pink area on the PAR chart. Probably your distance is less than 80cm if you have substrate, so this is not a problem at all.
> Cheers,



Hi Clive,

I am trying to max out my CO2, but the up atomizer is giving me head hack, at a certain pressure it starts outputting only big and medium bubble, and that's inefficient !!

I have two solution to that :

- As I told Ady, I have a 5cm ceramic disc that is doing nothing. But it is a cheap one ! Maybe I can have a better result with it because even if injection rate is high I can pump more than with the UP aqua, as I know it from previous "test". 
If I go with this configuration, the idea is to take out the NA steel flow that is 16mm and replace it with the FX5 original tubing 25mm like that I will have less velocity but more mass flow and turn over. Do you think it would help also ? 

- For the second solution, I have a Fluval 305 filter (900 L/H) and a up aqua that I was using in my 90 L tank, that is now empty. I can instal it and have two filter with two UP aqua running. The first one would be positioned in the front left corner, and the second one in the back right corner. 
The only problem will be that I will have two filter, and two CO2 FE in the cabinet, taking a lot of space.

So what do you think master about the two configuration ?
For the ph profile I am facing a small problem, my calibration fluid are now very old, and I broke the glass of the 4 ph solution. So I don't have any more calibration fluid only a very small amount of 7 ph fluid  .

Ok light is not an issue as i understand, but I wanted to check hoppy's chart again, and I am in the good zone with only two bulbs on at that height.

tank is : 20"
light at : 7"

So by looking at this chart I am above the curve almost at the zero line (I will put the chart with my phone)
If you look also at the table (I will put it after) I am between the nothing and the low range. 
But I don't realy care I know by you guys (Ady and Clive) that I have sufficient light, and that it is 100% a CO2 issue so the solution of my problem is above, but I will still put you the charts.

I have an echinodorus in that tank, the new sprout are coming out red, than the leaves grows and stay red/brown, and when it reach a very good size, you can see that the leave is very thin and not in good shape, I am sure you will tell me it's CO2 related lol. 


What should I do for the diatomic algae that is covering every thing ? 

cheers guys 
I will not give up !!!


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## ceg4048 (25 Feb 2014)

Hi Thomas,
                  Sorry you\re still having issues with this. I\m surprised that the Up is not performing. Could it be just dirty and in need of cleaning? I like to keep things simple, so I would start with the FX5 option and pump the gas into to the inlet, It sounds like you may have distribution problem but I haven't seen an image of how that is set up. Is it just a single outlet pipe with no spraybar? I'm a little unclear on that.

As I mentioned earlier, if your T5 bulb is 27 inches (70cm) above the substrate then on Hoppy's chart that gives you around 25 micromoles per bulb. If you have two bulbs then that is 50 micromoles at the substrate, so there is nothing wrong with that.

Are the bulbs on a timer, and are you certain the timer is working properly? Sometimes they turn on by themselves at night when there is no CO2.

Cheers,


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (25 Feb 2014)

Hi Clive,

thanks for our reply.
I have already tried to put the CO2 tubbing in the inlet filter, but result is not good. With the high amount of CO2 that I pump the result is that I got a CO2 buid up at the top of the filter and every 10 or 15 min there is a huge blast of big CO2 bubbles coming out the filter outlet. So there is a waste of CO2 and it is not dissolving well, even if I increase the flow power.
It is a single outlet that is pointing to the right face of the tank. I can clearly see that flow goes around the tank and every where. The plants that have CO2 issue are the one that are near the right face of the tank, so where distribution and flow must be the best . The filter is working at only 1/4 of capacity, above that I have too much pressure on the flow (like it was in the previous scape).

The bulbs are on timer and the lights are on from 7 pm to 2 am. I have already been at home during day they don't turn on. I have have also check during night (when I come back from pub or club lol) and nerver turned on. 

So regarding my answer to your solution, that is "not working" for me, would you consider one of the two solutions I put before ? 

cheers master


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## ceg4048 (25 Feb 2014)

Thomas,
                It's not a certainty that the far right edge of the tank has the best distribution. That'ss part of the problem when you send flow across that long axis of the tank, especially if the pump is only working at 25% power. You need more force to push the flow across the to the other side. Movement of the water where the tube is mounted pulls water along from the bottom, so it's entirely possible that there is better flow just below where the outlet pipe is mounted. That's generally why I have a preference to mount the outflow on the back wall, because the distance is shorter.

Also, what media do you have in the filter? Stronger flow should do a better job of dissolving the gas, not just trapping it and burping it. Anyway there is something a little strange about this. 

There is something about your distribution that is not right. I really don't like the idea of pointing two outflows against each other as you mentioned in option 2. If they are both on the same side then that makes better sense to me.

Cheers,


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (26 Feb 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> Thomas,
> 
> Cheers,



Hi Clive,

So yesterday I did a big clean in the tank, cleaning glasses, scrubbing plants, stir substrate in some area, clean the stones ....
I made a change in distribution. I put back the 25mm hose of FX5, put the big ceramic disc in the tank. Up the power of FX5 to almost 50%. With a bigger outlet and a bit more power, distribution is way better !!! a have a bigger mass of water that moves across the tank with out too much velocity. I can clearly see that with the ceramic disc I can pump more CO2 in the water. But as it is cheap disc, all the bubbles are not very small, but I am sure I will have better result.
The filter media, is just foam from different size. About CO2 in the filter, when I tried it months ago when it was in my older tank (bigger) it was running at 100%, but still the gas was trap at the top of the filter and was burping big bubbles.

Would you advice me to run the second filter with second FE and up aqua, pointing in the same way than the FX5 ?

Hope I am going on the good road.
Cheers


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## ceg4048 (26 Feb 2014)

Yes I think that will help if you use the second filter, but try and keep things simple for now and see how this one works first. If you do install a second unit then DEFINITELY point it in the same direction.
Did you chop up the foam into small pieces? That will help to dissolve the gas and avoid big bubble buildup.

Cheers,


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (26 Feb 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> Yes I think that will help if you use the second filter, but try and keep things simple for now and see how this one works first. If you do install a second unit then DEFINITELY point it in the same direction.
> Did you chop up the foam into small pieces? That will help to dissolve the gas and avoid big bubble buildup.
> 
> Cheers,


 No I didn't chop the foam !! I will do it next time I clean the filter, and give a try to put the tube in the inlet.
I have to find some calibration fluid for my ph pen, but here in Congo it will impossible so I will have to order it !! 
So should I wait and see for 10 days ? If there is no improvement I put the second filter ? 

thanks


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## ceg4048 (26 Feb 2014)

Hi Thomas,
       you ought to see an improvement in less than 10 days. You might see quicker pearling, or better growth, or less melting.

Cheers,


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## TOO (26 Feb 2014)

Another option for better CO2 dissolution and distribution is to put the atomizer on the inlet. I did this about one month ago and am quite happy with it. Since I changed to glass spray bars I found difficult to work with the UP on the outlet (as soon as the bubbles start to get big they make a lot of noise on their way out of the small spray bar holes). Putting it on the inlet saves that. And I have no issues with gas buildup in the filter, perhaps because there is not a lot of material in the there. In my (limited) mind this method must mean more or less 100% dissolution of the CO2 before it enters the tank...

Thomas


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (26 Feb 2014)

TOO said:


> Another option for better CO2 dissolution and distribution is to put the atomizer on the inlet. I did this about one month ago and am quite happy with it. Since I changed to glass spray bars I found difficult to work with the UP on the outlet (as soon as the bubbles start to get big they make a lot of noise on their way out of the small spray bar holes). Putting it on the inlet saves that. And I have no issues with gas buildup in the filter, perhaps because there is not a lot of material in the there. In my (limited) mind this method must mean more or less 100% dissolution of the CO2 before it enters the tank...
> 
> Thomas



Hi Thomas,

thanks for your in put, I have already tried this , I did first the CO2 tube directly in the inlet not working, than I tried to put the UP on the inlet, and still having gas build up .
This is due to the huuuuge amount of CO2 I need to pump to reach good concentration in my very soft water.

Lets see what the new configuration do, if it's not working, than I will try with second filter+ UP AQUA, and the ceramic inside the tank.

cheers


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## TOO (26 Feb 2014)

zanguli-ya-zamba said:


> Hi Thomas,
> thanks for your in put, I have already tried this



What advice for the man who has tried everything? Bottle of wine (instead of EI)?

Thomas


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (27 Feb 2014)

Hi guys,

So yesterday was the first full day with the changes. The ph drop is better with this configuration it reached 3,65. I wasn't satisfied how the CO2 bubbles were hit by the flow, so I added a koralia pump just under the outlet of the filter, 20 min after installation ph drop to 3,2 !! great.
I don't know if it is because of the changes but surface scum is gone that's great !!! Is it already a good sign ?
I have not noticed any earlier pearling. 
But this is only the first 24 hours, so we can't really judge. But overall flow in the tank have really improve !!!



ceg4048 said:


> Hi Thomas,
> Cheers,



One interrogation is about  flow pressure. Clive how do you know if you have to much flow or that the flow is too stronger ? 

I will continue to report 

Cheers


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (27 Feb 2014)

Forgot to say, temp is a bit too high 27,7 C°


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## ceg4048 (27 Feb 2014)

Hi Thomas,
                   Yes, getting a sharper pH drop is definitely a better sign. Surface scum disappearing is definitely a fantastic sign.

If the flow is too strong then the leaves will flap about as if they were flags in strong wind. If they just rock and shiver then it's OK. There were a couple of threads with video showing strong but good flow, but the links died. I'll have to search around for some others. I don't suppose your sister's Congolese camera has video capability?

Cheers,


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (27 Feb 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> Hi Thomas,
> Yes, getting a sharper pH drop is definitely a better sign. Surface scum disappearing is definitely a fantastic sign.
> 
> If the flow is too strong then the leaves will flap about as if they were flags in strong wind. If they just rock and shiver then it's OK. There were a couple of threads with video showing strong but good flow, but the links died. I'll have to search around for some others. I don't suppose your sister's Congolese camera has video capability?
> ...



Hi Clive,
My sister's cam cameback from japan, they have fixed the problem. But she is in Kenya since a week and she will be back in a month !
I can film with my go pro (it films in 1080p) so quality is good. Or I can film with my iphone.
It would be great to see a video of a tank with strong but good flow. 

What is the correlation between surface scum and poor CO2 ? I would love to have one of your rocket science explanation lol.

cheers


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (27 Feb 2014)

the "congolese camera" is a Canon 5D lol


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## ceg4048 (27 Feb 2014)

zanguli-ya-zamba said:


> It would be great to see a video of a tank with strong but good flow.


I'll keep looking but ca you upload a short video clip of your leaves moving to youtube and paste the link here?



zanguli-ya-zamba said:


> What is the correlation between surface scum and poor CO2 ?


See comments in the thread Surface Film | UK Aquatic Plant Society

Cheers,


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (27 Feb 2014)

Ok no problem I will do it


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (27 Feb 2014)

Some thing very strange happened in my tank !! Water change was two days ago and  today when lights turned on the water is yellow ???


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## ceg4048 (27 Feb 2014)

Might be something in your micro mix. Sometimes the Iron will cause staining.

Cheers,


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (27 Feb 2014)

And white matter is on and in a part of the substrate. 
Can it be a reaction between Iron and phosphate ?


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## ceg4048 (27 Feb 2014)

It is possible that the precipitate is Iron phosphate.
I cannot say for sure. Are you dosing micro and macro at the same time?
Is the Iron chelated?

Cheers,


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (27 Feb 2014)

No but yesterday I dosed trace in the afternoon and at 9pm I have put macro. So yes this precipitation. 
What is the move. 50% WC. I was thinking that you could dose macro and micro within three or four hours lol


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (27 Feb 2014)

First time I do this so first time I see that


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## ceg4048 (27 Feb 2014)

Try dosing on alternate days mate. Every tank and every different brand of micros is a little different. This might indicate that there is poor chelation of the micros. I'm not even certain it's the Iron. It could be the zinc or even manganese, or some combination. I can't say for certain.

Cheers,


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (28 Feb 2014)

Hi,
So I did a 60% WC, took out the part of the sand that had precipitation on it. 
I have put some tetra aquasafe after water change. I will let my water stay in a container for 24 hours for every WC now, like that we will see if I have a chlorine problem. 
Because I put directly from tap to water. 
After WC and aquasafe water was clear. But this moring when I looked to the tank water was a bit "milky" ??? what is wrong again hahaha ? starting to get crazy here
The only thing I have done after WC and aquasafe is putting a dose of KNO3 that's it.
We will see if there is an amelioration tonight.

I really wish to kill that diatomic algae, that is covering everything grrrr.

cheers


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## ceg4048 (28 Feb 2014)

Not sure why the milkiness mate. Normally that is bacterial. If your municipality doesn't use chloramine then just leaving the water for 24 hours should be enough to off-gas the chlorine so you wouldn't need to use the Aquasafe. If they do use chloramine then yes, the dechlorinator should be used.

Cheers,


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (28 Feb 2014)

I will try to have the info (I don't know how) of what they put in their water ! 
Yes it looks like bacterial. Do you think it could be a reaction of the bacteria to the chloramine or chlorine ??


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## ceg4048 (28 Feb 2014)

Well the chlorine/chloramine is there to kill the bacteria so I'm not really sure if using the aquasafe allows a bloom to occur. If that's the case then I wouldn't really worry about it because you are not drinking the water so no big deal.

Cheers,


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (28 Feb 2014)

What is the difference between Chlorine and Chloramine ? 
It is armful for the plants I suppose ? 

cheers


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## Edvet (28 Feb 2014)

Any chance you could get a hold of active coal to clean your water before you use it for for a waterchange?


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (28 Feb 2014)

Edvet said:


> Any chance you could get a hold of active coal to clean your water before you use it for for a waterchange?




Hi Edvet,
What do you mean by Coal ?? I don't know what is it ?

cheers


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## ceg4048 (28 Feb 2014)

zanguli-ya-zamba said:


> What is the difference between Chlorine and Chloramine ?
> It is armful for the plants I suppose ?cheers


When water is chlorinated, the typical product used is just bleach, but chloramine is a chlorine+ammonia product so it has different properties and has to be gotten rid of  a little differently. See Darrels explanation in the thread How long can you store water? | UK Aquatic Plant Society




zanguli-ya-zamba said:


> What do you mean by Coal ?? I don't know what is it ?


This is activated carbon. You can use this to remove either bleach or chloramine but you need lots of it. It rains a lot in Congo right? Why not just collect rainwater? Then you don't have to worry about any of this when you have fish in the tank. If you have only plants then there really isn't too much of an issue.

Cheers,


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## Edvet (28 Feb 2014)

something like this:Adsorptive filter media


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (28 Feb 2014)

Thanks guys for your answer.
I can easily find activated carbon here ! I have a friend who have a water factory and I know he import a load of it for the production of drinking water.
I don't have any livestock in there only plants. As I said I want to know how to grow plants !! I have been keeping fish for 15 years now I want plants lol.

So if I don't have any live stock, chloramine will not be harmful for the plant ? I can still pump directly from tap ? This will help me and will be better than having 100 L sitting twice or once a week in the living room lol ?


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## ceg4048 (28 Feb 2014)

Yes just add it and forget about it.

Cheers,


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (28 Feb 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> When water is chlorinated, the typical product used is just bleach, but chloramine is a chlorine+ammonia product so it has different properties and has to be gotten rid of  a little differently. See Darrels explanation in the thread How long can you store water? | UK Aquatic Plant Society
> Cheers,




Thanks for the link !!


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (28 Feb 2014)

So we can take out one parameter (chlorine/chloramine) of why I have a growth problems in my tank ? 



ceg4048 said:


> When water is chlorinated, the typical product used is just bleach, but chloramine is a chlorine+ammonia
> 
> Cheers,



DOes this mean every time I do a WC I add a small amount of Ammonia ? Can this small amount help the diatomic algae to bloom or persist ?

Cheers


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## ceg4048 (28 Feb 2014)

No, that only happens when you use a dechlorinating agent that does not have sodium thiosulfate and which does not neutralize the free ammonia from the chloramine. We don't know what your municipality uses so it's no good jumping to conclusions.

Cheers,


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (28 Feb 2014)

Why such a strong product is not harmful for plants ?


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (28 Feb 2014)

I just understood that by reading a link in the thread you linked me lol 

cheers


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (4 Mar 2014)

Hi
Just to let you know that I don't have melting since a week now. Since 3 days I can see new green growth !!!
The only down side is that diatomic algae is taking over all plants and hardscape. How can I get ride of this ? black out ?

cheers


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## ceg4048 (4 Mar 2014)

Hi Thomas,
                   Yeah try a blackout to stop the diatoms and hopefully it will not return since you've improved the conditions.

Cheers,


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## José Macedo (10 Aug 2014)

Hi,
Any news about your tanks?
Planning to start a tank soon in Kinshasa also.
Cheers,
José


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (11 Aug 2014)

José Macedo said:


> Hi,
> Any news about your tanks?
> Planning to start a tank soon in Kinshasa also.
> Cheers,
> José



Hi José,
you are in Kinshasa ????????? That's great to know that there is an other UKAPS member in Kinshasa, I was feeling a bit lonely here hahaha !

So we should meet and do the first UKAPS MEMBER MEETING in Congo I am sure the forum would be happy to see that even in center africa UKAPS is a reality and we could share pictures of that meeting haha.

The tank is running very well since two month, I am back on track and I am building a new tank.
So you are planning to start a new tank here ? Did you bring your TMC and all your gear in Kinshasa ? how will you proceed with plants do you have some ? For CO2 refiles I know also the place and if you need to buy a FE let me know.

Do you come to live in Congo or it is just for holidays. 
Contact me in PM I will give you my number.

great mate 

cheers


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## José Macedo (11 Aug 2014)

zanguli-ya-zamba said:


> Hi José,
> you are in Kinshasa ????????? That's great to know that there is an other UKAPS member in Kinshasa, I was feeling a bit lonely here hahaha !
> 
> So we should meet and do the first UKAPS MEMBER MEETING in Congo I am sure the forum would be happy to see that even in center africa UKAPS is a reality and we could share pictures of that meeting haha.
> ...



Yep, living and working in Kinshasa. We must do that meeting! We'll make an aquarium club and help each other! 

I brought all the gear but the thank and the CO2 bottle (airlines don't allow it). I'm ordering an ADA 60P from South Africa. Regarding plants I think they'll come from Europe once I had already planned a setup, but I'm always open to your suggestions.

I'm having some difficulty in finding a CO2 bottle.. Apparently Safgaz can adapt a regular bottle to the ADA CO2 system.

I'll send you a private message with my phone number.

Cheers,
José


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## Martin in Holland (12 Aug 2014)

José Macedo said:


> Yep, living and working in Kinshasa. We must do that meeting! We'll make an aquarium club and help each other!


Sounds like a good plan.....anyone here living in Shenzhen?


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## Greenfinger2 (9 Apr 2015)

Hi Sorry to but in   This is what forums are all about sharing info  Cool when you can meet like minded people though For coffee and a chat


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