# Reconstituters....



## HiNtZ (10 Nov 2018)

What chemicals have you all got on the shelf to reconstitute 100% RO/DI?

I'm not very happy using solely GH booster because of the potassium. I'd like to decide when and how the K goes in.... same goes for KH without wholey using sodium based chemicals. I would like to however have a balance here to have at least a tad of sodium.

Any advice? Cheers!


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## X3NiTH (10 Nov 2018)

Calcium Carbonate
Magnesium Carbonate
Magnesium Sulphate
Magnesium Chloride
Potassium Bicarbonate

Front loaded Macro so Magnesium Nitrate and Potassium Phosphate added also.
Daily Micro, that chemical soup list is long.

The Calcium Carbonate and Magnesium Carbonate need to be turned into Bicarbonate before it can be added to the water change water, this is done by adding them to Carbonated Cold water (Sodastream) along with some Ascorbic Acid to reduce the pH to ensure maximal dissolution in the bottle, when this resultant 900ml of milk is added to around 24L of RO/DI there is 100% dissolution overnight and the water becomes crystal clear.

Trying to pin down Mulders' chart for me started a bit of a water chemistry obsession with the goal being to have nutritious waters without bumping into antagonism by adding nutrient fillers in excess (sodium, chlorides and sulphates).


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## HiNtZ (11 Nov 2018)

X3NiTH said:


> Calcium Carbonate
> Magnesium Carbonate
> Magnesium Sulphate
> Magnesium Chloride
> ...



Well I learned something new today! ...the other half of what I learned yesterday about turning a bicarbonate into a carbonate.

I like the idea of the soda stream but haven't got one - it seems the potassium bicarbonate is the best choice for ease here, right?

What would you consider an excess for Na & S?

Thanks for your time


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## X3NiTH (11 Nov 2018)

The above mix was aiming for 15ppm of K and having parameter ratios for Ca/Mg/K/NO₃ at 2:1:1:1 and NO₃/PO₄ 3:1, GH/KH ratio 1:1, so I had to come up with a formula that fit. I could have reached the same values using sulphates or chlorides but I have found this came with an increased TDS cost, for instance using Salty Shrimp Mineral GH+ for water hardening without carbonates results in (before ferts) GH6 KH0 TDS 150-200 (because it's a blend of Magnesium and Calcium chlorides you might not always get the exact same ratio in the scoop but it's near enough for it not to really matter though), whereas the above mix comes comes with 2 additional GH points and 8 in KH, front loaded with Nitrates and Phosphates for a whopping 130-150 TDS and the plants can eat it all.

It's not an easy mix but it's a balanced mix.


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## HiNtZ (12 Nov 2018)

X3NiTH said:


> The above mix was aiming for 15ppm of K and having parameter ratios for Ca/Mg/K/NO₃ at 2:1:1:1 and NO₃/PO₄ 3:1, GH/KH ratio 1:1, so I had to come up with a formula that fit. I could have reached the same values using sulphates or chlorides but I have found this came with an increased TDS cost, for instance using Salty Shrimp Mineral GH+ for water hardening without carbonates results in (before ferts) GH6 KH0 TDS 150-200 (because it's a blend of Magnesium and Calcium chlorides you might not always get the exact same ratio in the scoop but it's near enough for it not to really matter though), whereas the above mix comes comes with 2 additional GH points and 8 in KH, front loaded with Nitrates and Phosphates for a whopping 130-150 TDS and the plants can eat it all.
> 
> It's not an easy mix but it's a balanced mix.



It may not be easy but it certainly has piqued my interest to really break everything down that's going in to individual chemicals so I take the guesswork out of the tap and eventually the traces. It seems as though you've been on that journey for a while!

I certainly would like to be around 150 TDS though!

Calcium Carbonate
Magnesium Carbonate
Magnesium Sulphate
Magnesium Chloride
Potassium Bicarbonate

Do you have any recommendations where I can get these in the UK?


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## HiNtZ (12 Nov 2018)

Hold that thought - just bought it all on ebay


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## dw1305 (12 Nov 2018)

Hi all, 





HiNtZ said:


> Calcium Carbonate, Magnesium Carbonate, Magnesium Sulphate, Magnesium Chloride, Potassium Bicarbonate





X3NiTH said:


> The Calcium Carbonate and Magnesium Carbonate need to be turned into Bicarbonate before it can be added to the water change water, this is done by adding them to Carbonated Cold water (Sodastream) along with some Ascorbic Acid to reduce the pH to ensure maximal dissolution in the bottle


It will help a bit, but the group 2 (MgCO3, CaCO3)  carbonates will still come out of solution when you add them to the tank, it is back to the <"CO2~carbonate~pH equilibrium, and the common ion effect">.  




The group 1 "alkali" metal carbonates are soluble in water (they are the only carbonates that are), so as soon as you add potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3) (as K+ and 2HCO3- ions),  the <"least soluble carbonate"> (CaCO3) will come out of solution.  

cheers Darrel


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## X3NiTH (13 Nov 2018)

I agree this mixture is on the threshold of solubility targeting 32mg/L Ca while looking at it with the solubility of CaCO₃ being 47mg/L equilibrium CO₂ @ 25c, however there is zero observable precipitation within the tank (water level evaporation precipitation excluded as its present but minor), that's not saying it doesn't happen though only that if it is happening it will be during the night CO₂ off gassing phase when the pH climbs toward equilibrium level of 7.8, reversing on the day phase with CO₂ injection down to pH6.2 (gas on 1.5hr before lights).

The water is pH monitored with calibrated probes (have 2 injected tanks using same source water, one with active substrate and one with inert gravel, the active substrate has near enough filled its CEC so the profile is only slightly different by 0.2pH points, the probes read the same exact figures they are supposed to when swapped around the tanks and when in both tanks together (to discount electrical interference), that's multipoint calibration in addition to two reference calibration fluids (4 and 7), the daily profile never changes and the atmospheric equilibrium point is always pH7.8 when read in the morning before injection phase, at water change the sample kept outside the tank for comparative analysis (where I store the probe to keep it wet while performing the change) always reads pH7.8 and the drop checker is always the same shade of green. It's the stable carbonate hardness, daily, weekly, monthly, that's important here for non variance pH controlled CO₂ injection in low conductivity waters (sub 200 TDS).

I should also say that I have a third tank that has the same water and also has active substrate (JBL shrimp soil) just red rams horns for fauna, mainly crypts and Java fern for flora, it has no CO₂ injection and very infrequent micro (macro front loaded in the water), Java fern not doing so well developing the shotgun blast look, crypts slowly doing well since they are planted and enjoy a little osmocote in the tropica powder soil base layer (JBL cap layer), the tiny smattering of duck weed on the surface is still green and multiplying (very very slowly thankfully), zero precipitation, Snails shells look great in this tank, not so much in the CO₂ injected tanks which look fairly shabby telling me day phase CO₂ injection leaves some room for the water to take up a smidgen more calcium robbing it over a long period of time mainly from the larger adult snails, although not enough to effect the water KH week to week.

The actual recipe for 25L water and further notes on preparation are as follows -

25L RO/DI water contained in a plastic construction tightly sealable Jerry can. The need for a tight seal is you want to retain the CO₂ in the overal mixture to keep CaCO₃ in solution for as long as possible, this also has an advantage that water changes and maintenance can be performed during the lights on phase of an injection cycle as overall the water in the sealed container roughly holds 30-35ppm CO₂ (this is what I have observed over quite a few months since using this remineralisation formula). Decant 900ml of this water to the soda stream bottle and refrigerate.

Add to 900ml Refrigerated Cold Carbonated RO/DI (one full level round in new type soda stream machine is enough)-

2g Calcium Carbonate
1g Magnesium Bicarbonate
0.25g Ascorbic Acid

In order to keep as much CO₂ from off gassing the above mixture is added to a food spice diffusion bag and placed fully and quickly into the neck of the briefly open bottle, above the cold pressurised water making sure to close the top tightly before shaking to mix (adding the powder without the bag can turn the water into a volcano, not quite bicarbonate into vinegar but it gets close). This mix goes back into the fridge for 24hrs just to give it time to go somewhat into solution, it's more of a suspension that can sediment but over 24hrs there is a massive reduction in sedimentation happening and the liquid takes on a cloudy lemonade look telling me some bicarbonate has formed, when the bottle is reagitated and the sedimentation goes back into suspension the resultant liquid looks like skimmed milk (importantly the mix has fully exited the spice bag by this time).

A day before performing the water change I will add to the 24.1L (or thereabouts water volume it may be more, I just need enough space in there to take the 900ml back and not spill over the lip when the Jerry can is sitting upright and level)-

1g Potassium Bicarbonate
0.75g Magnesium Nitrate
0.5g Magnesium Sulphate
0.2g Potassium Phosphate
Pinch of Magnesium Chloride

I don't measure the Magnesium Chloride out because it really is just a teeny tiny pinch just enough so Chloride is non-zero hence its magnesium content I don't add to the final numbers I'll give below.

Once these salts are in the water in the Jerry can I then take the cold bottle of bicarbonate/carbonate solution from the fridge and add it all in (opening the bottle slowly and no vigorous agitation beforehand as to not off gas too much CO₂), fish out the empty spice bag floating at the top and pour half the liquid into the Jerry can, the remaing liquid in the bottle is given a swirl around to pick up any sedimentation and poured directly into the Jerry can, I then seal the top and leave it overnight to go clear.

24hr dwell time for everything in the water is not any special number it's just the minimum time I have so far left it to sit before use and since I do two jerry cans at a time. The other end of the wait spectrum is a Jerry can sitting 2 weeks before use with CO₂ still being retained at 30-35ppm.

The resultant values in mg/L are (resultant water TDS <150) -

Ca / 32
Mg / 14.42 (not counting MgCl addition)
K / 17.9
NO₃ / 15
PO₄ / 5.58
S / 2.6
Cl / Non zero

GH / 7.8 (MgCl addition probably pushes this to nearer 8)
KH / 7.8
pH / 7.8 (@ atmospheric CO₂ from stored sample which correlates with in tank behaviour)

In tank CO₂ injection phase behaviour -
pH / 6.2 (estimated 30ppm CO₂ via Lime Green colour change to Drop Checker 4dKH sample)

I have not measured the pH directly in the Jerry can but performing a water change (50%ish of total system water, 80%ish tank volume which other than plants there's is only 10 year old Bogwood and inert gravel substrate to alter the water chemistry to which it doesn't), the resultant refilled tank pH is 6.1 (controller set to 6.2 so once the canister filter is restarted and left to run for a few minutes the excess gasses off quickly and the controller can kick in when it reaches its control point).

Zero issues (inspecting for sedimentation issues within the Jerry can before use and there are none), crystal clear water. Further to this I'm currently skipping a water change or two to test if the KH drops over a longer period between water changes, 3 weeks so far and the KH hasn't budged (CO₂ equilibrium point is still pH 7.8 and the CO₂ addition pH drop to 6.2 results in the familiar lime green drop checker), micro daily and bio carbon every two days (non chelated micro, only chelation is if it binds with any free Gluconate that the Iron is sourced from when mixed in the same bottle).

For interest my daily micro dose levels in mg/L are -

Fe Gluconate / 0.1
Fe DTPA / 0.05
Mn / 0.05
B / 0.03
Cu / 0.002
Mo / 0.0015
Ni / 0.0005

The motivation for all this was trying to get Bucephalandra to thrive without deficiencies (leaf holes, curled malformed leaves, melt), previous remineralisation strategies were first Salty Shrimp Bee GH+ for 0KH, the rhizomes didn't appear to like this and disintegrated, I'm speculating through super low pH causing beneficial rhizobacterial colonies to not thrive, EI with FeEDTA based micro, stem plants absolutely thrived here. Next stop a combination of Salty Shrimp Bee GH+ and Seachem Alkaline Buffer (to KH8), brought the pH right up averaging neutral between CO₂ injected and degassed pH, halted rhizome degradation but any growth was glacial with curled malformed tiny new leaves, pinholes in old growth worst affected would melt in half if lucky, unlucky if the whole plant melted, grim if it's a whole bunch. Worried about iron dropping out of the EDTA I added supplemental FeDTPA, issues remained. I was providing all the necessary nutrients but no improvement. Stopped using Alkaline Buffer as I ran out and couldn't justify the cost of it (being mostly sodium bicarbonate) and swapped it out to Potassium Bicarbonate for the KH (that's a load of potassium before accounting for what comes along with the nitrate), not long after this did I stop using EDTA derived micro (ruminating that I may have FeEDTA de-chelation issues) I swapped to making a mix of Seachem Trace with Flourish Comprehensive (to near EI levels) fortified with Fe DTPA, got growth but leaf issues persisted, melting stopped though. Stopped using Seachem Trace (dosed at EI levels it gets expensive fast) and went DIY, went the whole hog and rethought the whole process for remineralisation focusing on Tap waters from natural sources where others (Vasteq mainly since he appears to have nailed it) had success with these plants and was compatible with CO₂ injection in mind. The above is the result.

I can now grow Bucephalandra. No melt. No disintegrating rhizomes. No malformed or tiny new growth. No pinholes. It's a minor victory but I'll take it.

Where there's growth (1 leaf every two weeks on the strongest growing plants) the Rhizome is elongating and new leaves reach maturity normally without deficiencies. Their mass is increasing. Current skipping WC test showed halted growth in new leaves after second week, phosphate or nitrate likely bottomed out a bit (still feeding fish in here) and it's readdition got growth going again, halted leaf has now opened growing again (without malformation) and a new leaf is on its way.

Read lots, learnt lots, thankfully now reaping the benefits.

It's my Cat and this is how I skin it!


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## dw1305 (13 Nov 2018)

Hi all,





X3NiTH said:


> I can now grow Bucephalandra. No melt. No disintegrating rhizomes. No malformed or tiny new growth. No pinholes. It's a minor victory but I'll take it.


Sounds good, just keep on going. 





X3NiTH said:


> I agree this mixture is on the threshold of solubility targeting 32mg/L Ca while looking at it with the solubility of CaCO₃ being 47mg/L equilibrium CO₂ @ 25c, however there is zero observable precipitation within the tank (water level evaporation precipitation excluded as its present but minor), that's not saying it doesn't happen though only that if it is happening it will be during the night CO₂ off gassing phase when the pH climbs toward equilibrium level of 7.8, reversing on the day phase with CO₂ injection down to pH6.2 (gas on 1.5hr before lights).


The CaCO3 will definitely go in and out of solution as the level of CO2 changes, but it will do this even if it wasn't originally in solution. 

Solubility will be enhanced if you have very fine CaCO3 particles (which you will have), because of their large surface area to volume ratio. It is the <"snail shell under added CO2 scenario">. Because your pH returns to pH 7.8 you know that you still have carbonate buffering in the tank. 

cheers Darrel


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## HiNtZ (13 Nov 2018)

So I'm a bit confused by the precipitation thing?

Is the difficulty keeping it in solution in the bottle, or the tank as well? Can you add acid to the solution as well as carbonating it to help?

I'd really like to have a go rolling my own as far as the Ca/Mg/KH goes. I just need a clear enough plan to start with.

Would keeping CO2 24/7 help with these? I could probably hold a decent 6.5-6.8ph constantly that way....

I'm just having visions of adding the solution to the water and seeing a white snow of deposits all over the place :/


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## dw1305 (13 Nov 2018)

Hi all, 





HiNtZ said:


> Is the difficulty keeping it in solution in the bottle, or the tank as well? Can you add acid to the solution as well as carbonating it to help? I'd really like to have a go rolling my own as far as the Ca/Mg/KH goes. I just need a clear enough plan to start with.
> Would keeping CO2 24/7 help with these? I could probably hold a decent 6.5-6.8ph constantly that way....


It could happen in both tank and bottle, it depends upon the ratio of bases (H+ ion acceptors) and acids (H+ ion donors). In the bottle you can just add enough acid to dissolve all the calcium carbonate (CaCO3), it is like when you drip a strong acid (HCl) on chalk, CaCl2(aq) and CO2 are formed and you can see the CO2 as bubbles. 

When you add CO2, you've donated a H+ ion (from the H2CO3). Calcium carbonate is sparingly soluble in pure water (<"15mg/L at 25oC">), but soluble in acids. This is a buffered system where CO2 (as H2CO3) and CO3 (as HCO3-) are the conjugate acid and base.  

This is also how a drop checker works. We have a known amount of bases (the 4dKH solution) and we can use the change in pH (via the change in colour of the bromothymol blue pH indicator) to estimate our CO2 concentration.

CO2 in solution acts as an acid because a very small proportion of it becomes carbonic acid (H2CO3). The proportion of CO2 that becomes H2CO3 is dependent upon the amount of CO2 dissolved, which is proportional to the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere (~400 mg/L), *unless you are continually adding it. *If you continually add CO2, you will retain more Ca++ and 2HCO3- ions in solution (you have more CO2 in solution than the equilibrium value, therefore more H2CO3 and more H+ ions).  





HiNtZ said:


> I'm just having visions of adding the solution to the water and seeing a white snow of deposits all over the place :/


If you add a lot of potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3) that is exactly what happens, but it shouldn't with @X3NiTH's solution. 

When you turn off the CO2 CaCO3 will begin to precipitate, but it may go back into solution as CO2 levels rise (from the respiration of the bio-load outside of the photo-period). 

cheers Darrel


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## X3NiTH (13 Nov 2018)

No you won't see precipitation with this mix, one of the tanks I mentioned above receives the same water but no CO₂, I presume it sits near equilibrium the majority of the time and there's is zero discernible precipitation, higher humidity in air space of this tank (heat from light above) has so far not allowed any water to dry out on the glass above the water line and so hence there is practically zero calcification tide marks. Not tested anything in this tank, literally fill it and then neglect it for a few weeks between water changes.

The acid in use here is Ascorbic acid (0.25g/25L), also it's in the micro solution to bring pH right down to 3 (0.25g/500ml dosed 3ml per day to 40L system volume).

The precursor experiment to using food grade Calcium and Magnesium Carbonates (it's a flour so massive surface area to volume as described by Darrel above) started with the thought of buying and using Dolomite Powder but it comes with mystery milligrams of trace metals (wasn't pure enough for my liking), remembered I had a bag of Cuttlefish Fish bone and had at it with a Stanley blade and shaved it into a powder, performed the same preparation as above and it worked although it had a fishy aroma to it and not knowing its preparation assumed it will come with mystery milligrams but at least the test worked and so opted for the food grade carbonates instead.


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## dw1305 (14 Nov 2018)

Hi all,





X3NiTH said:


> started with the thought of buying and using Dolomite Powder but it comes with mystery milligrams of trace metals (wasn't pure enough for my liking)..........and so opted for the food grade carbonates instead.


Dolomite powder is a ground limestone where some of the calcium has been replaced by magnesium during lithification. Dolomitization of  lime rich muds occurs in warm, evaporite basins, so you will get other <"evaporite salts"> incorporated into the rock. 

I would assume they are the other trace metals, and I wouldn't worry about them.  

cheers Darrel


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## Oldguy (14 Nov 2018)

HiNtZ said:


> I like the idea of the soda stream but haven't got one


I use Asda fizzy water at 17p for 2 litres. (most of the lower priced carbonated waters have a low mineral content).  I add it to rainwater/tap water mix to bring CO2 up. Then follow EI trail at the lower end for macro nutrients. Many years ago used Soda Stream but when the unit broke and the little CO2 bottles became hard to find I gave up on it. Assume its back on the market.
Love this hobby, it brings the Scientist out in people.


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## dw1305 (14 Nov 2018)

Hi all, 





Oldguy said:


> I use Asda fizzy water at 17p for 2 litres


That was where <"Amano started"> (the carbonated water, not Asda). 

cheers Darrel


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## HiNtZ (14 Nov 2018)

Thanks again guys - I'm just waiting on the stuff to arrive. The magnesium carbonate which turned up already is weird - virtually weightless it feels.


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## dw1305 (14 Nov 2018)

Hi all, 





HiNtZ said:


> The magnesium carbonate which turned up already is weird - virtually weightless it feels


As a salt the pentahydrate (MgCO3.5H2O) is of similar density to sodium chloride (NaCl), but yours is "food grade" and really finely ground. You could make it denser by heating, the anhydrous salt will be denser (water has a density of "1", and your salt will be hydrated), but you've already paid for the water. Salts that "want" to be hydrated can only be kept anhydrous by storing with a desiccant in a air tight container.    

You can think of it as the difference between snow and ice, or <"granulated and icing sugar">, ice and granulated sugar are a lot denser, because they don't contain the air that the fine powders do.

cheers Darrel


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## X3NiTH (14 Nov 2018)

HiNtZ said:


> The magnesium carbonate which turned up already is weird - virtually weightless it feels.



Magnesium Carbonate has huge bulk to it, feels like wool in the bag. Wait till the Magnesium Chloride turns up, that's a sensory pleasure in itself, squeeze the bag and it crunches like footsteps on fresh snow.



Oldguy said:


> Love this hobby, it brings the Scientist out in people.



Yeah, curiosity, just listening to the radio isnt enough it has to be taken apart and put back together multiple times, learning, then building your own. Not everybody's cup of tea though!



dw1305 said:


> I would assume they are the other trace metals, and I wouldn't worry about them.



Funnily enough I didn't wholly discount its use because of this even though I said differently above, I could have lived with it if it was easier to source than the food grade carbonates, had an MSDS for the product, and it came in a less than 20 Kilo Bag. Turns out using the food grade carbonates is easier and a little more precise.


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## HiNtZ (14 Nov 2018)

X3NiTH said:


> squeeze the bag and it crunches like footsteps on fresh snow.



Noooooooooooooooooooooo! That makes me cringe! like biting down on wet wool, or stroking short pile velvet *shudder*


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## X3NiTH (14 Nov 2018)

HiNtZ said:


> like biting down on wet wool



Let me turn that up to eleven!



> like biting down on ACRYLIC wool



'Shudders' and passes ou............


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## HiNtZ (15 Nov 2018)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, As a salt the pentahydrate (MgCO3.5H2O) is of similar density to sodium chloride (NaCl), but yours is "food grade" and really finely ground. You could make it denser by heating, the anhydrous salt will be denser (water has a density of "1", and your salt will be hydrated), but you've already paid for the water. Salts that "want" to be hydrated can only be kept anhydrous by storing with a desiccant in a air tight container.
> 
> You can think of it as the difference between snow and ice, or <"granulated and icing sugar">, ice and granulated sugar are a lot denser, because they don't contain the air that the fine powders do.
> 
> cheers Darrel




But the weight is what counts at the end of the day right? Like a ton of feathers and a ton of bricks - both are a ton still (excluding the moisture it may/may not have absorbed)?

I just played with the MgCO3 - 1 litre RO, small pinch of MgCO3 and it turned really milky. It's like it semi-dissolved. Then I added a small pinch of ascorbic acid and now it's crystal clear.


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## dw1305 (15 Nov 2018)

Hi all, 





HiNtZ said:


> But the weight is what counts at the end of the day right?


Yes.





HiNtZ said:


> (excluding the moisture it may/may not have absorbed)?


It will be a hydrate unless you've heated it and then kept it in an air tight container, it just means that if you work out the Mg or CO3 content on a weight basis you need to add in the <"water of crystallization">.

I've just found that the stable form of magnesium carbonate <"is the trihydrate"> (MgCO3.3H2O) 





HiNtZ said:


> I just played with the MgCO3 - 1 litre RO, small pinch of MgCO3 and it turned really milky. It's like it semi-dissolved. Then I added a small pinch of ascorbic acid and now it's crystal clear.


It is back to the carbonate solubility rules, magnesium carbonate is "sparingly soluble" in water so if you add more than the smallest amount most will remain un-dissolved. Carbonates are soluble in acids ((MgCO3 + 2 HCl → MgCl2 + CO2 + H2O)), so adding the ascorbic acid will dissolve the milky fraction.

cheers Darrel


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## HiNtZ (15 Nov 2018)

So these tiny amounts, the tipping point at which it stays dissolved or not - is there a limit for such a GH/KH calculation where this will simply stop working? Would increasing the acidity of the water offset the amount which would be added extra?

We are talking about the carbonates being the problem here right? Not the actual Ca or Mg.... not sure if that makes sense as a question but is this why other forms of Ca/Mg as sulfates for example don't have these dissolution problems?

Sorry to be a pain with stupid questions. I'm really eager to understand all aspects.


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## dw1305 (15 Nov 2018)

Hi all,


HiNtZ said:


> is there a limit for such a GH/KH calculation where this will simply stop working?


Usually dGH and dKH are the same, because they originate from CaCO3, but you can create water with a high dGH and no dKH (if you add MgSO4.7H2O etc) or water with no dGH and a high dKH, if you add NaHCO3 etc.


HiNtZ said:


> Would increasing the acidity of the water offset the amount which would be added extra?


When you add an acid to a solution with HCO3- ions you don't change the total amount of Total/Dissolved Inorganic Carbon (TIC/DIC) you just change the form that it is in from HCO3- to CO2 gas.






The amount of DIC is regulated by the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, when you add pressurised CO2 you can just think of that as analogous to an atmosphere richer in CO2.


HiNtZ said:


> We are talking about the carbonates being the problem here right? Not the actual Ca or Mg.... not sure if that makes sense as a question but is this why other forms of Ca/Mg as sulfates for example don't have these dissolution problems?


That's it. Some calcium compounds dissolve readily (like CaCl2), but the carbonate doesn't.

The only carbonate compounds that are soluble in water are the Group 1 alkali metals, sodium (Na), potassium (K) etc. Nearly all group I metal containing compounds are soluble.

When you add potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3) to water it becomes K+ and HCO3- ions, but if that water already has HCO3- and Ca++ ions in solution, the less soluble calcium carbonate will precipitate out. This is the <"common ion effect">.


> A practical example used very widely in areas drawing drinking water from chalk or limestone aquifers is the addition of sodium carbonate to the raw water to reduce the hardness of the water. In the water treatment process, highly soluble sodium carbonate salt is added to precipitate out sparingly soluble calcium carbonate. The very pure and finely divided precipitate of calcium carbonate that is generated is a valuable by-product used in the manufacture of toothpaste.


Toothpaste - Wikipedia

cheers Darrel


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## goldscapes (16 Nov 2018)

I must admit this thread is mostly beyond me but I think it opitimises the depth of understanding, dedication and supportive nature of the UKAPS members and experts.

All credit to @HiNtZ and @dw1305 for sharing their experiences and expertise in this thread - @LondonDragon surely this is a keeper, it just needs a suitable home!


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## HiNtZ (16 Nov 2018)

davexcape said:


> I must admit this thread is mostly beyond me but I think it opitimises the depth of understanding, dedication and supportive nature of the UKAPS members and experts.
> 
> All credit to @HiNtZ and @dw1305 for sharing their experiences and expertise in this thread - @LondonDragon surely this is a keeper, it just needs a suitable home!



Not sure I contribute much more than problems and questions when I get round to posting! 5 years in and I'm still suffering...

X3NiTH and Darrel have really both helped immensely. Darrel's got a good way of breaking the science down & has lots of experience (always see him among others in the archives), also very good at providing further reading, links to other discussions and scientific papers. 

X3NiTH has started me on the road with the recipe too. There's literally no discussion anywhere else on the internet on dissolving this stuff. I found one thread on another fish forum but it was brief.


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## HiNtZ (16 Nov 2018)

dw1305 said:


> When you add potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3) to water it becomes K+ and HCO3- ions, but if that water already has HCO3- and Ca++ ions in solution, the less soluble calcium carbonate will precipitate out. This is the <"common ion effect">. cheers Darrel



So literally pushes the least soluble compound out of solution? This is fascinating - I wonder if there are any videos online of an accelerated demonstration of this? Obviously I don't want to find out for myself, hah!

Thanks again Darrel for taking the time.


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## dw1305 (18 Nov 2018)

Hi all,





HiNtZ said:


> So literally pushes the least soluble compound out of solution?


Yes, there is always the <"same sequence of salts"> going in and out of solution. It also effects the amount of dissolved gas that a solution can hold, sea water is <"fully saturated with oxygen"> at a lower level than fresh water (for the same temperature) because it is a much saltier solution.

Carbonate salts differ from the other salts in that they are more soluble at lower temperatures (because gas solubility is higher at lower temperatures), for the other salts solubility increases with water temperature. 





HiNtZ said:


> There's literally no discussion anywhere else on the internet on dissolving this stuff.


You really need to look at the scientific literature. I'm lucky because I can always ask a proper scientist at work if I'm not sure about something. 





HiNtZ said:


> This is fascinating - I wonder if there are any videos online of an accelerated demonstration of this?




cheers Darrel


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## HiNtZ (21 Nov 2018)

Hey guys - so I gave this a go earlier in the week.

GH: 6 KH: 6.6

CaCO3 - 6g in 75L =                     32.04ppm Ca
                                                         4.47 dKH
                                                         4.47 dGH

MgCO3 - 0.75g in 75L =              2.88ppm Mg
                                                         0.66 dGH
                                                         0.83 dKH

NaHCO3 - 2.25g in 75L =            1 dKH
                                                         8.1 Na

MgCl2 - 0.93g in 75L    =             0.35 dGH
                                                         1.5ppm Mg
                                                         4.37 Cl

MgSo4 - 2.8g in 75L    =              0.6 dGH
                                                         3.12 Mg
                                                         4.05 S

dGH      6.08
dKH       6.65
Ca          32.04ppm
Mg         7.5ppm
S             4.05ppm
Na          8.1ppm
Cl            4.37ppm

Ratio:    4.3/1

Mixed all that into 3L of carbonated water (I'm waiting on the home carbonating kit and regulator to do my own - which reminds me, can I carbonate pure RO?!) I had lots of fun drying myself off afterwards - I hadn't realised the amount of gas that would be produced! Anyway, it pretty much dissolved bar a modicum of silt at the bottom of the barrel. I figured that would be fully dissolved within an hour or two at 6.5ph in the tank.

I think my calculations above are correct.....


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## X3NiTH (22 Nov 2018)

HiNtZ said:


> Can I carbonate pure RO?
> I had lots of fun drying myself off afterwards - I hadn't realised the amount of gas that would be produced.
> Pretty much dissolved bar a modicum of silt at the bottom



Yes no problem carbonating RO/DI (0TDS).
Did warn you it could get messy, you'll need the spice bags!
Don't see the addition of an acid in your recipe it will help the reaction out by adding some, (I'm using Ascorbic Acid).

Your values look correct, I take it you are using the Sodium Bicarbonate for extra KH because your either you don't have the Potassium Bicarbonate yet or are you going to use KNO₃ for the K? I've seen best results with Mg:K:NO₃ @ 1:1:1 so you can dose way more MgCO₃ (your MgCO₃ is likely Magnesium Carbonate Pentahydrate).
Magnesium Carbonate Pentahydrate

I would say you don't need that much Sodium, the only sodium I am adding comes from the DIY traces I make up as either Sodium Boron Decahydrate (Borax but I've swapped to Boric Acid which has no sodium) and Sodium Molybdate, so Sodium is there but in trace amounts. Anecdotally from what I've read Sodium in plants get used in lieu of Potassium if the environmental K levels are very low.


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## ian_m (22 Nov 2018)

X3NiTH said:


> Anecdotally from what I've read Sodium in plants get used in lieu of Potassium if the environmental K levels are very low.


You clearly read the wrong articles and don't think about what falsity you have just read. .

Why do you think the sea is salty ?

Because there are virtually no biological processes that use sodium in any decent quantity, this why all the sodium (in form of chloride) washed out of rocks/soil ends up in the oceans. There is nothing, plant or animal, using it.


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## X3NiTH (22 Nov 2018)

Ha ha, ok sorry 'in lieu' probably wasn't the best choice of words and reading it back it does sound silly as it makes it sound as if plants can actually beneficially use Sodium as a replacement ion to Potassium. Doesn't stop the plant taking it up though.

Potassium Substitution by Sodium in Plants
Article in - Critical Reviews in Plant Sciences July 2011

I know it's a paper on non aquatic plants specifically but all plants were once aquatic. My point is why add Sodium when it's easily avoided in anything but trace amounts and I'm saying trace because I wouldn't want to omit it entirely just in case a plant may have a need for it, I'm clearly not 'ooh all bad' about using Sodium Bicarbonate as I've used it in the past and plants are obviously tolerant to the Sodium, but at what ratio does it become either Antagonistic or Synergistic depending on the ratio with other ions is unknown to me (if someone can dismantle Mulders chart and give real numbers and ratios to what it describes, well that would be real appreciated) and since the recipe I have described above tries to supply literally an all you can eat buffet (an attempt at the nice balanced hard'ish Tap/Karst Water you all seem to have great success with) I chose to omit Sodium in anything other than trace. Don't see anything wrong with that?


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## HiNtZ (22 Nov 2018)

X3NiTH said:


> Yes no problem carbonating RO/DI (0TDS).
> Did warn you it could get messy, you'll need the spice bags!
> Don't see the addition of an acid in your recipe it will help the reaction out by adding some, (I'm using Ascorbic Acid).
> 
> ...



Sorry forgot to mention I am adding a small amount of ascorbic acid....

I also do have KHCO3, I just wanted to experiment a little with and without sodium. I could never test the theory that sodium -/+ has any benefits. I read many things over the years and there's been debates both ways about it so figured I'd draw my own conclusions. I'm pretty well equipped with various salts now to have the freedom to mess around. I'd like next year to start making my own traces too so this is good practice.

Cheers


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## HiNtZ (25 Nov 2018)

Well.... I don't know what's happened but my problems have literally completely disappeared.... and not just the suspected lack/excess of something that was causing induced Ca deficiency (zinc? manganese? I'm almost certain it was something in the trace inducing it but alas, it is just an anecdotal opinion and I could never say with such conviction that was the problem).

What did I change?

In short..... A LOT.

I made up some water using the very helpful information in this discussion here and got 100% dissolution after a few hours in the barrels before even needing the acidic conditions of the tank to finish it off. Very happy with that to say the least.

Next, I dumped EI. It worked fantastically well for me in the beginning with straight tap (14GH 12KH). When I moved to half cutting the tap with RO things started to go dodgy. Plants were in a stasis of growth with health that was barely clinging on. It was mostly colours that were not right. Structural damage was minimal. It was a limbo.

So I thought I'll reconstitute the RO with GH booster and NAHCO3 and keep on with EI. Disaster! Pest MTS population wiped out over night. GH was 6 KH5 - so hardly anything to do with being too soft. PH was around 6.2 so perhaps if anything, that was a factor... but why so quickly?? I have a low tech downstairs same water parameters (albeit PH is 6.8) that has hundreds of the bloody things. The difference between the tanks is that one gets EI and the other gets a half dose of profito.

I've always considered the macroelements to not be completely blameless in the grand scheme of things. I think there is still such a thing as "too much". Not as in danger levels to livestock or plants in that they will kill them.... just it won't be optimal for certain tank conditions. I mean if you're uptaking 10ppm NO3 a day, then by all means dose it with that. Not doing so would be silly. However, I don't think default EI is a one size fits all solution. Even Tom maintains that there is some adjustments that should be made depending on other factors which is fair enough. It does exactly what it says on the tin - you estimate how much YOUR tank uses. It's just up to you how you get there. Start high and reduce? Or start low and increase? Me personally I would start in the middle, 1/2 EI for half a week and see how that takes you to water change. Observe, adjust, repeat. If I am completely honest, I thought in the beginning I've got CO2, high light and the EI kit mix the bottles up, job done. I was naive but I am wiser for it now.

So - in the three days since the lovely water I made and added to the tank the improvements are already evident. BUT - I also wound right down on dosing. It can hardly be called EI, and not because of the reduced dose but because I've dropped KNO3 out of the dosing. Now my regime looks a little like this:


WC (I do these at night under moonlight) + 10ppm K (from K2SO4 - I'll substitute this for the carbonate in the next mix)

Day 1
Trace -
B      0.0038
Cu   0.0008
Fe   0.03 (as EDTA)
Fe   0.05 (as a mix of DTPA and EDDHA)
Mn  0.0066
Mo  0.00054
Zn   0.004

PO4 0.5 (slightly apart from the trace)
Urea 0.7

*Day 2*

Urea     0.7
Fe         0.06 (DTPA/EDDHA)
K           2

Then to day 7 (water change) alternating the same.

Next step will be to monitor it a bit longer than 3/4 days before getting too excited but I know my r. rotundifolia as if it was my child and I know when it's not happy. Well this afternoon when I return the leaves have doubled in size. They aren't spindly thin.... they are like huge lobes. I know something has changed for the better because it's been about a year since I've had it anywhere near good health. My sunset was rolling its leaves up like tubes down the mid rib. This had something to do with induce Ca I mentioned earlier by something in the trace. Cutting trace completely out stopped it happening - interestingly enough GDA disappeared too (but came back if I added trace). All plants were yellow during these problems and h. difformis had a marbled veiny look to its leaves which looked like Mg, but induced too because I was adding it. This only stood to intensify the problems the trace may have been causing whereas ridiculous amounts of K alleviated the symptoms slightly.  

I don't know where I'm going with this rambling but there you go.... perhaps I have realised how invaluable all the aquatic forums have been in my quest and the more information that I put in the post about my issues, the more relevant the google results will be for people to find us who have spent years trying to make sense of it all. Other people's problems and solutions being solved has helped immensely and I'm only too happy to contribute my own tribulations if it will at least help people realise they aren't the only ones who have problem because it certainly can feel like that when you see some member's amazing tanks here juxtaposed to your own horrid mess!

Anyway, I'll (try to) shut up now..... I WILL update this I PROMISE. If there's one thing that really bothers me it's people who get massive threads going with the issues then disappear at the end without telling anyone what they did or what happened with the advice they were given! Did they leave the hobby fed up of the problems and the money it costs etc etc? Or was it more a case of they solved the problem and were so happy and overwhelmed with their tank they forgot to let us know.

I'll post a pic of the tank tomorrow then a few every week regardless of what happens - I was pretty embarrassed to post pics for the past year because of how bad it looked but I do have a few pics of the symptoms I encountered on different plants for future reference.

Cheers guys!


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## X3NiTH (26 Nov 2018)

Good to hear!

It worked for me to alleviate deficiencies in Bucephalandra but that took time (weeks) to see improvements, impressive that you are seeing such a change in your stem plants so quickly!


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## HiNtZ (26 Nov 2018)

X3NiTH said:


> Good to hear!
> 
> It worked for me to alleviate deficiencies in Bucephalandra but that took time (weeks) to see improvements, impressive that you are seeing such a change in your stem plants so quickly!



At the height of my successes with the tank (years ago) I was culling plants bi-weekly. Ok so they are relatively fast growers overall but others like P. Stellatus were still putting inches on over just 24hrs - I was literally watching them grow. The canopies were huge, like umbrellas and the leaves broad and flat and the colours, amazing - orange, purple tinges of blue and silver. I really miss it how it used to be. Even that is showing great signs now but is much greener than I remember it being. It was always a bit custardy, but nice with it. 

I run the tank pretty harsh as per lighting and CO2 because I am impatient at seeing results from my little tests. Not a good way upsetting the balance all the time. I did always, always do 80% average water changes when the tank would start going downhill mid week though - I've been resetting A LOT which is why I think the plants have hung on for almost a year now.


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## HiNtZ (26 Nov 2018)

Oh and.... are we ready for a ferrous gluconate discussion?

I've wanted to incorporate it for a while. Any advice? 

Cheers


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## HiNtZ (26 Nov 2018)

Here is the tank today:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1i8G5Nxl6ORBYJkgB907J9C65J5AScSD5
https://drive.google.com/open?id=17CcheXCY0gUytbhEGBRRKnQydovMU2ta
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1yALATpiun1m61Y2b-cAqOdR46RQM3I8Q
https://drive.google.com/open?id=14hjSINQ1iGdaSXMhNjssISQJTCf3PMB9
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Z9B21e4sMkT4l5EipvTT3Lc58abGgImZ
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1NZ4L-ay5X_e8T2I_CF2dpIR-eJ187t5V
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1SPNDSgE0EWscw1xDX4GYp_ZdwqIpGc_a

Here are a couple of photos from before changing things up - I didn't take pics at its worst:

This is what the polysperma did - it would do this overnight after EI micro dose, without fail. I doubled the dose and it got worse, lessen the dose and it got better. Some discussions have proposed an induced Ca deficiency.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1a0I8lHd3kO_9PP_5Ef0skYuDRNGe39Tl

Not the best photo of the wisteria I think I have better ones somewhere but the lime green newer growth was constant, and instead of slightly darkening as the leaf matured it became more and more lime green but with dark green veins. Most would say Mg, except I added a little, some, and a lot to rule it out.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-X5pQnmKCjYIViYCbpR_rsU24Ig_Xt-_

Similar with repens with the lime green again and patchy between veins. Mg, again?
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1BFcwx5W6HzNe6IcMin_KvABQUbHyeHnM


This photo I just found is from last year, when things were a lot better. This was under EI and same CO2 as I run today, maybe even a bit less.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1wZJ-7KKkr6W59Lwu4hWqMihiFFSZ9La2


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## HiNtZ (28 Nov 2018)

Another thing worth mentioning is that in the past the APF Trace:

27.4g in 500ml - 10ml dose 3 x week (150L tank)

Fe   8.2%
Mn  1.82%
Zn   1.16%
B     1.05%
Cu   0.23%
Mo   0.15%

EDTA

Causes way, way more problems than profito:

10ml per 100 litres

Fe    0.24%
Mg   0.31%
B      0.02%
Mn   0.10%
Zn    0.002%
Cu   0.003%
Al     0.003%
Co   0.003%
Ni     0.003%
Li     0.003%
Se    0.002%
Va    0.003%
Sc   0.001%
Te   0.002%
Nb  0.002%
Mo  0.002%

EDTA/DTPA/NTA

My better times were usually with profito......  I also found someone else who noticed improvements when they switched



> , i recently switched from Chelated Traces to Easy Life Profito Ferro and i see improvements and i wonder why , my Kh is 5


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## X3NiTH (28 Nov 2018)

If you're within the pH parameters for EDTA to remain stable it works extremely well.

I had great success with it full EI as per recommended instructions when I was running a tank with near 0dKH and had an active substrate (Fluval Stratum Shrimp) where the water pH profile was from below 6.5 down to 5.2ish (or lower). The problems started for me with EDTA when somehow the tank water KH rose 12 points in the space of a week, wow that was a wacky week, had no idea what was going on until the plants started to look really bad and then I tested everything and saw the KH pegged out when it should read near zero, on reflection I suspected the stratum substrate just disgorged all or any KH it stored up over time after a micro dosing accident (200ml got dosed because I got distracted and forgot I had the autodoser running, did water changes to rectify it but the substrate must have been done for) and the pH rose taking it out of range for the best use of EDTA. Remineralisation here was entirely Bee Shrimp Mineral GH+.

It didn't stop me from using EDTA though, I continued to do so but fortified it with DTPA to take into consideration that after a total restart (for Bucephalandra) I was going to add KH to bring the water to a more neutral pH (Seachem Alkili alongside Bee Shrimp GH+), stem plants always did well but the Buce always struggled with deficiencies or melted away entirely either bottom up or top down. Reading as much scientific literature as I could find on Bucephalandra and a side note anecdote (not supported by any measurements) of 'Sensitivity to Metals in water' gave pause for thought specifically because the mix of salts in a bag of EDTA trace are non homogenous, the ratio of elements could be very slightly out of whack in each teaspoon especially more so when you aim to get some copper sulphate crystals in (because that's really the only element apart from the iron that you can differentiate from the other salts), thus trying to pin exact ratios down is fruitless unless you mix the entire bag in one go into water (providing the bag has had weighted elements in a known exact ratio added to this bag and not taken from an even larger bag where each scoop may have a slightly different ratio), in the grand scheme of things this shouldn't really be a problem unless you are trying to pin down a particularly sensitive element (Cu?). So I looked into it and went about doing things differently and because my concentration was about Buce I specifically looked at how they get their nutrients in the natural environment and what their sources are. (I should note that my Remineralisation strategy here changed and I replaced the Seachem Alkili for Potassium Bicarbonate, not because it wasn't working but because I ran out and was too stingy to pay for more). 

From where I could find analysis about water where Buce are likely to live Copper is present in very trace amounts where it is noted as <0.00mg/L (it's not saying it's not present just likely that the test doesn't detect it below this level) but Manganese could be as high as 0.05mg/L, so in the first instance I fortified my EDTA/DTPA mix with extra manganese (because my plant symptoms appeared to indicate K deficiency (pinholes in leaves) alongside Ca deficiency (loss of structural integrity, fancy way of saying melt) when they were present in abundance, literature appeared to point he finger at manganese for these combination of symptoms. This actually helped a lot and temporarily alleviated some of the problems but never entirely, root health was always an issue so I started adding phytohormones to help out the roots (I'm growing Buce entirely epiphytically on Bogwood and the roots have no access to an interstitial soil) again this helped but things still weren't right. Around this point I changed things up and started front loading the macro weekly at water change and dosing micro daily.

Staring at Mulders chart (often) and trying to match it with real numbers (you'll get through a lot of fertilisation literature doing this and come across an enormous amount of data not always correlative) I came to the conclusion that antagonism really is a thing and its ratios not total concentrations that work and you also need to pick the appropriate micro chelate.

Determined to fix this situation I decided to stop using EDTA and swapped to Flourish Comprehensive fortified with DTPA and Flourish Trace, spiced up a little with some extra manganese, all dosed beyond their bottle label recommended levels by targeting EI micro daily rates. At this point for remineralisation I reduced the potassium bicarbonate levels by using powdered cuttlefish bone instead which reduced the need for Bee Shrimp GH+ (down to a pinch for the chlorides) and started front loading macro weekly with extra magnesium sulphate. Things were going in the right direction and I was seeing huge improvements in Buce health by ratioising everything by this point, but it was going to be seriously draining on the wallet to do so using Seachem Trace (using because it's non chelated for low persistence), so decided to DIY everything including my simulated Karst water recipe were discussing here.

I'm 4 weeks + into no water change with my daily micro dosing, (micro daily level listed way above, copper is in this mix, have dosed extra MgNO₃ and KH₂PO₄), GDA on the glass and BBA increasing but I'm not seeing any signs of toxicity, I may or may not have accumulation happening, however my equilibrium pH is now 7.95 up from 7.8 (no extra KH added, inert substrate), my other tank (getting same treatment, ert substrate) has risen by the same 0.15 points, so over 4 weeks the chemistry has slightly changed, the daily micro solution is acidic at pH3.2. I run electrocoagulation at night so I am ruminating that hydroxides may be accumulating (without testing, no idea).


----------



## Edvet (29 Nov 2018)

X3NiTH said:


> I run electrocoagulation at night


??


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## dw1305 (29 Nov 2018)

Hi all,





X3NiTH said:


> I run electrocoagulation at night





Edvet said:


> ??


I was wondering about that one as well.

cheers Darrel


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## HiNtZ (29 Nov 2018)

X3NiTH said:


> If you're within the pH parameters for EDTA to remain stable it works extremely well.
> 
> I had great success with it full EI as per recommended instructions when I was running a tank with near 0dKH and had an active substrate (Fluval Stratum Shrimp) where the water pH profile was from below 6.5 down to 5.2ish (or lower). The problems started for me with EDTA when somehow the tank water KH rose 12 points in the space of a week, wow that was a wacky week, had no idea what was going on until the plants started to look really bad and then I tested everything and saw the KH pegged out when it should read near zero, on reflection I suspected the stratum substrate just disgorged all or any KH it stored up over time after a micro dosing accident (200ml got dosed because I got distracted and forgot I had the autodoser running, did water changes to rectify it but the substrate must have been done for) and the pH rose taking it out of range for the best use of EDTA. Remineralisation here was entirely Bee Shrimp Mineral GH+.



My PH drops about 1.2 to 6.5



X3NiTH said:


> the mix of salts in a bag of EDTA trace are non homogenous, the ratio of elements could be very slightly out of whack in each teaspoon especially more so when you aim to get some copper sulphate crystals in (because that's really the only element apart from the iron that you can differentiate from the other salts), thus trying to pin exact ratios down is fruitless unless you mix the entire bag in one go into water (providing the bag has had weighted elements in a known exact ratio added to this bag and not taken from an even larger bag where each scoop may have a slightly different ratio), in the grand scheme of things this shouldn't really be a problem unless you are trying to pin down a particularly sensitive element (Cu?). So I looked into it and went about doing things differently and because my concentration was about Buce I specifically looked at how they get their nutrients in the natural environment and what their sources are. (I should note that my Remineralisation strategy here changed and I replaced the Seachem Alkili for Potassium Bicarbonate, not because it wasn't working but because I ran out and was too stingy to pay for more).



Always played on my mind this did - some months were good, other's not so..... when I thought about why this was it coincided more or less with the first week of a new mix of trace. I hate seeing those little blue/green balls... there always seems to be so many of them and always on the top.



X3NiTH said:


> Staring at Mulders chart (often) and trying to match it with real numbers (you'll get through a lot of fertilisation literature doing this and come across an enormous amount of data not always correlative) I came to the conclusion that antagonism really is a thing and its ratios not total concentrations that work and you also need to pick the appropriate micro chelate.



Is the chelate for the Fe in my mix for example the same as the one that binds the other metals?



X3NiTH said:


> Determined to fix this situation I decided to stop using EDTA and swapped to Flourish Comprehensive



This was going to be the next micro mix I was going to try.



X3NiTH said:


> I'm 4 weeks + into no water change with my daily micro dosing, (micro daily level listed way above, copper is in this mix, have dosed extra MgNO₃ and KH₂PO₄), GDA on the glass and BBA increasing but I'm not seeing any signs of toxicity, I may or may not have accumulation happening, however my equilibrium pH is now 7.95 up from 7.8 (no extra KH added, inert substrate), my other tank (getting same treatment, ert substrate) has risen by the same 0.15 points, so over 4 weeks the chemistry has slightly changed, the daily micro solution is acidic at pH3.2. I run electrocoagulation at night so I am ruminating that hydroxides may be accumulating (without testing, no idea).



GDA was a sure bet the next day for me after adding Mg.


Here's todays pic with some closer up shots. I'm actually noticing deficiencies already and some thread algae on my fissidens!!! Wasn't there yesterday. NO3/PO4/K there is enough of for sure. I'm definitely lacking something but when I add traces and even quadruple the doses I show different problems. I promised myself I wouldn't give up!

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=1tfomzuMnE4ps3kAPhREPMUE5hf7ti0Fm


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## X3NiTH (29 Nov 2018)

> X3NiTH said:
> 
> 
> > I run electrocoagulation at night
> ...



Electrocoagulation

This thesis - Removal of Trace Heavy Metals from Drinking Water - Joe Heffron

Also this thesis - Combined electrooxidation and electrocoagulation process for the treatment of municipal wastewater - Mohammed Sajeed Farooqui

Mines a DIY affair, two pieces of stainless steel mesh separated by some PVC mesh (gutter guard) so the electrode distances from each other are 2.5-3mm. Power supply is straight 12vDC @ 2.5A, (pulsed reversed polarity in the KHz range would be great, but I've not incorporated that yet as I don't have a suitable circuit design, the cost of a dedicated pulsed power supply is out of the question). It's cobbled together with cable ties and hot glue (hot glue used to isolate wire connection to each electrode from the water so it doesn't corrode and break the connection, additional to this I'm not using copper core cable to make the connections) in a sandwich and suction cupped to the side wall of the tank under the spraybar (produced gasses are circulated quickly around the tank). I run the device overnight on a timer that switches on for 10 intervals of 6 minutes each spread over the night, first interval is half an hour before lights off (so I can monitor functionality) and the last interval is half an hour before Micro autodosing happens and one hour before lights on.

What I hope to achieve is 'Increased oxygen saturation levels overnight', I see this as pearling at lights on in the morning, this is additional to aeration provided by an air pump overnight to off gas CO₂, the tank reaches atmospheric CO₂ equilibrium before each injection phase. 

I also want to 'Increase the removal of metals from the water to mitigate against the effects of accumulation', because there is daily micro addition (not specifically chelated but any combination with fulvic and humic acids that are part of the micro mixture in the dosing bottle is advantageous), there should be a degree of accumulation, hopefully coagulation and flocculation happens naturally when unchelated metals bump into each other and therefore use of this device should increase that chance considerably. 

Ideally a reset of the trace elements to very low levels before each day's addition would be great. Only evidence I have if this is working (and its anecdotal at best) is that over 4 weeks of no water changes daily micro, daily fish food, bio carbon every two days, addition of 10ppm NO₃ (from MgNO₃) and 6ppm PO₄ (from KH₂PO₄) at week two, that in this time my TDS has risen from 170ppm to 220ppm and atmospheric CO₂ equilibrium point has risen from pH7.8 - pH7.95. 

My Buce are still throwing out new leaves and showing no signs of deficiency/antagonism or toxicity (given their 'Sensitivity to Metals'). My Crypt Balansae has turned into a weed and the BBA on it is getting a bit out of control, I also include the M.Pteropus Windelov prothalium growing on the Bogwood being out of control also as it's getting to about 4cm long and suspended in the water column all day by oxygen bubbles. Water is still crystal clear. Guaranteed that when I do a water change I'm going to empty the filter because it's going to be full of flocculant (mulm), it was the last time I had a look in there.

DIY Twinstar 'More Science than Sorcery!'


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## HiNtZ (29 Nov 2018)

X3NiTH said:


> Electrocoagulation
> 
> 
> Mines a DIY affair, two pieces of stainless steel mesh separated by some PVC mesh (gutter guard) so the electrode distances from each other are 2.5-3mm. Power supply is straight 12vDC @ 2.5A,




Is this anything like those oxy cleaning devices? Can't remember what they're called...


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## X3NiTH (29 Nov 2018)

HiNtZ said:


> Is the chelate for the Fe in my mix for example the same as the one that binds the other metals?



Yes it will bind with the other traces and not just the Iron, EDDHA is an environmentally persistent chelate it will remain bound to the iron throughout all pH ranges you are likely to encounter in an aquarium (and beyond). Very little degradation in this chelate, because it's so stable it will accumulate if you were to add it daily. I wouldn't use it the way I'm currently running my tank, DTPA works better for me because it will break down due to photodegradation (sunlight will eliminate it in 30mins) and reach its half life potential when the pH hits 7.5. In 24hr Fe titration testing  (JBL test kit) the difference in readings I see are that the Fe Gluconate is gone within 24hrs while the assumed remaining Fe is Fe DTPA that reads about half its dose (0.025ppm, the JBL test barely reads the level). Regarding the chelates I have used (not used EDDHA) this is what can be said of them.

Fe Gluconate - can last as little as two hours after dosing, least stable above pH6, similar to EDTA

Fe EDTA - stable to pH6, degrades above pH6, half life is at pH7, total degradation above ph7.6

Fe DTPA - stable to near pH7, degradation above pH7, half life is at pH7.5, total degradation at pH8.5.



HiNtZ said:


> What is the profito putting in per dose? I've no idea where to start working out the ppm from the %



0.0001% = 1ppm. The volume of the contents of bottle represents your million parts per million, the percentages given will be in relation to the volume in the bottle, the resultant ppm dosed into the tank is dependant on the dose instruction in this case 10ml/100L hence the iron percentage of 0.24% becomes 0.024ppm in the 100L. Flourish Trace for instance has a little different dosing instruction 5ml/80L, the bottle percentage reads for Cu 0.0032% (32ppm) but the actual dose into that 80L is 0.002ppm.

This is Flourish Traces Guaranteed Analysis and its adjusted figures for what the dose instructions deliver 5ml/80L.

B - 0.0028% - Per Dose 0.00175 ppm
Co - 0.00003% - Per Dose 0.000018 ppm
Cu - 0.0032% - Per Dose 0.002 ppm
Mn - 0.0085% - Per Dose 0.0053 ppm
Mo - 0.0003% - Per Dose 0.0001875 ppm
Zn - 0.0169% - Per Dose 0.0105 ppm
Ni - 0.000002% - Per Dose 0.00000188 ppm
Rb - 0.000008% - Per Dose 0.000005 ppm
V - 0.000002% - Per Dose 0.00000125 ppm

Here's my Micro recipe and preparation instructions if you are interested.

500ml Micro Mix @ 1ml/10L -

Fe 0.15 ppm
Mn 0.05 ppm
Zn 0.04 ppm
B 0.03 ppm
Cu 0.002 ppm
Mo 0.0015 ppm
Ni 0.0005 ppm

This mix includes a liquid Fe Gluconate component, 'Grow Microbe-Lift Plants Fe'  (bottle instructions 1ml/100L - 0.1 mg/L and the solution in the bottle is pH 3.05).

The preparation water is RO/DI.

I acidified the water beforehand using Ascorbic acid (I had this already and should have used it with the previous 5L preparation noted in my last post) and checked the pH of the solution before adding the salts. At the addition of each salt there was vigorous mixing to achieve near full dissolution (salt crystals disappearing on visual inspection after each shake of the bottle) then the pH probe was put in the resultant mixture and the reading was allowed to stabilise for 5 mins before it was noted down. The following list shows the respective weights of the salts addition and the resultant pH of the mixture, the Mo, Cu and Ni component is derived from individual pre prepared solutions (100ml containers dosing at 10ml/5L for Mo 0.0015, Cu 0.002, Ni 0.0005).

500ml Micro dosed @ 1ml/10L, Preparation as follows -

450ml RO/DI + 0.25g Ascorbic Acid - pH 3.2

+ 0.77g MnSO4.H2O (Mn 0.05 mg/L) - pH 3.42

+ 0.9g ZnSO4.7H2O (Zn 0.04 mg/L) - pH 3.5

+ 0.86g H3BO3 (B 0.03 mg/L) - pH 3.5

+ 0.019g Na2MoO4.2H2O (Mo 0.0015 mg/L) - pH 3.6

+ 0.04g CuSO4.5H2O (Cu 0.002 mg/L) - pH 3.68

+ 0.0113g NiSO4.6H2O (Ni 0.0005 mg/L) - pH 3.74

At this point the resulting mixture is clear with zero precipitation. The addition of the Fe increases the opacity of the mixture.

+ 50ml Fe Gluconate (pH 3.05 - Fe 0.1 mg/L) - pH 3.35 (Green tint to the mix)

+ 2.275g FeDTPA 11% (Fe 0.05mg/L) - pH 3.19 (Brown Green tint to the mix)


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## X3NiTH (29 Nov 2018)

HiNtZ said:


> Is this anything like those oxy cleaning devices? Can't remember what they're called...



Söchting Oxydator - Nope that's a passive device using H₂O₂, but H₂O₂ will be a reaction byproduct using Electrocoagulation but unfortunately it's not enough to kill BBA.

Depurator - Yeah I suppose.

The above papers I posted were enough to get me to at least try the Ghetto version of a Twinstar device but obviously without the box of sorcery that comes along with that. In addition I'm not paying a premium by using Platinum coated Titanium for the electrodes instead using Stainless Steel (repurposed mesh that moss came on). I'm not hiding the science behind a Patent which in Twinstars case will be for the sorcery box (reversing pulsed electrolysis with a 'SPECIAL' timing sequence), and it will remain sorcery until someone plugs one into an oscilloscope.

I'm running two of them, one in each tank, the 12L tank has one half the size (repeated bending a few times until a full size piece off moss mesh snapped in half).


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## HiNtZ (30 Nov 2018)

Really appreciate these replies. Certain things you mention put me on paths to research more.

You said about EDDHA being a persistent chelate - does this include UV sterilisers? Do they have an effect on breaking it?


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## X3NiTH (30 Nov 2018)

All the chelate species breakdown due to photodegradation and are ethylene based and thus if made to become unstable that ethylene will be a component of the breakdown products. Ethylene is a mediator in apoptic cell death in plants (plants with their feet in soil may be protected from this to a degree but those with roots in the water column will see it all). Accumulation of ethylene, nope not going there........again? (I may have been there already as I was using UV when KH was zero and I had that wacky week after EDTA micro dosing accident described earlier, never used it since). I'm not using UV and the amount of Fe DTPA I'm using is low so if I have any accumulation of ethylene I'm hoping electrocoagulation is taking care of it (again 4 weeks into no water change and 0.05ppm of FeDTPA is added daily).

Addendum to post above about my micro mix. It waffles briefly about something 5L, this was a copy paste of a post I made on the BarrReport in the Custom Micro Thread and forgot to remove that part for here (the story goes.... I made 5L of micro without pre acidifying the water and the zinc addition turned it into a pulped paper consistency, acidifying afterwards then oxidised it and it dropped out of solution).


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## dw1305 (30 Nov 2018)

Hi all, 





X3NiTH said:


> Also this thesis - Combined electrooxidation and electrocoagulation process for the treatment of municipal wastewater - Mohammed Sajeed Farooqui


OK., that is the <"context that I've come upon it before">.  

Best of luck with the experimentation.

cheers Darrel


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## HiNtZ (30 Nov 2018)

I'm very interested to see the results of your experiments. Be sure to keep us updated!

Will be putting photos up tonight of the tank again - I'm noticing good and bad things. Update later.


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## HiNtZ (30 Nov 2018)

30/11

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1bnBpQmK3z24ia_fRX-r6JHDuaGcaNDTG


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## HiNtZ (1 Dec 2018)

1/12

https://drive.google.com/open?id=16Glu3LPYq9hows6ntGVz0xkxIXvwtfib

The Hygro has rolled up its leaves over night more or less! I woke up to them like it this morning. Now I'm baffled. The tank hasn't had anything at all in 4 days (in the sense that no daily additions were made as in EI)

Could it be the Fe I added on the 28th showing problems only now?

Is this actually true deficiency?


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## X3NiTH (2 Dec 2018)

It might be, it might not be, I know that's too vague an answer but as long as all the elements for plant growth are present (and you know exactly what you have added) either something has bottomed out (deficiency) or something is in too great a ratio to something else preventing uptake (antagonism). I'm leaning more to the 'might be' if you're front loading P, it could bottom out with persistent Fe to react with.

One of my Buce leaves curled its sides yesterday, same as your Hygro, I'm coming up again to the end of the second week of no nitrate or phosphate dosing, there's three large emperor tetras in the tank so nitrate could be low but it will not be zero, the phosphate on the other hand that's likely to bottom out, adding N and P uncurled it a couple of weeks ago, I'll dose tomorrow (I'll test for P presence before I do, I may test N also).

If you are doubting the ferts (and I did before I eventually went DIY) I would change to something of known commercial success with less persistence and with stated known values (on the bottle) for everything in it that you could dose every day, (that'll be a bottle of flourish comprehensive and a bottle of flourish trace, just for testing the effects of unchelated traces and gluconated iron though). 

If you want precision and stability, come up with a definitive balanced dosing regime and stick to it without deviation for at least a month, It's easier to paint when the canvas isn't moving.



dw1305 said:


> Best of luck with the experimentation.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Thanks, I'm gonna need it, I have my water ready for the change anytime but it's going to be used for a planned emergency. Emergency because we have a little carpet moth problem that just won't go away and planned because I've allowed Premethrin to be used in the room where the nexus is (I know Superbad, I'm still drawing air through my teeth about it but the wife's got the humongous spray can already), I have no shrimp to worry about but I'm still gonna seal the tanks up and put the airpump in a box with a face mask organics filter cartridge cobbled to it so it can get air clean air. It's gonna be a total tank gut and substrate change which will give me a chance to really reduce/eliminate(wish) some BBA in the hard to get spots.

:-/


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## HiNtZ (2 Dec 2018)

X3NiTH said:


> It might be, it might not be, I know that's too vague an answer but as long as all the elements for plant growth are present (and you know exactly what you have added) either something has bottomed out (deficiency) or something is in too great a ratio to something else preventing uptake (antagonism). I'm leaning more to the 'might be' if you're front loading P, it could bottom out with persistent Fe to react with.
> 
> One of my Buce leaves curled its sides yesterday, same as your Hygro, I'm coming up again to the end of the second week of no nitrate or phosphate dosing, there's three large emperor tetras in the tank so nitrate could be low but it will not be zero, the phosphate on the other hand that's likely to bottom out, adding N and P uncurled it a couple of weeks ago, I'll dose tomorrow (I'll test for P presence before I do, I may test N also).
> 
> ...



I think one thing I have noticed is that going lean on the N & P works better for me than EI. R. rotundifolia always seems much bigger and more healthy when at least N is low.

I'll definietely grab a couple bottles of flourish and give it a go. Gonna see this through to the end of the week and see where my N & P levels end up. N seems to be sustaining itself at 5ppm naturally. P is still just detectable but I feel I'll run out by Monday/Tuesday.

My plan for next week which I will (try) and stick to will be just commercial trace dosing. No N & P, but maybe a little K to top it up.

BBA is getting VERY fluffy by the way. I can see it increasing. :/


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## HiNtZ (2 Dec 2018)

Today: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1dkWpe-O0uhQk87GPXv-YGhCsHMcdtUiu

Think I might have dropped out on CO2 earlier in the week, causing the hygro leaves to roll up. It would make some sense as it is the old leaves and it happened very quickly.


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## HiNtZ (3 Dec 2018)

3/12: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1y7aZ9TIfdNOtrbt-BUEbt0sJ_VfcYgRN

Rotala standing straighter. I pinched the curled leaves of the hygro, stellatus is looking pretty reem. The rest is a bit meh. The crypts never worry me - they're quite hardy. 

Tempted to get some K in there though. Only 5ppm, just to see what (if any) changes occur. It must need some.... I only started with 7ppm 5 days ago. 

What do you think? Add some K?


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## X3NiTH (3 Dec 2018)

I would have left the curled leaves on so that if you dose anything and it unfurls then you found your deficient element, if nothing happens and more leaves curl then move on to another element. A few extra ppm of K won't do any harm, I'd dose it via KH₂PO₄ because if any things likely to react (Fe) and bottom out quicker it's likely the P so it wouldn't harm to add it.

I have more curling today and a couple of small Buce leaves melted. I am seeing same symptoms in both tanks now, (infrequent trace dosing (got an infrequent dose yesterday, melt today) and daily trace). I dosed some MgNO3 for the N, if there's no sign of improvement by tomorrow I'll dose P via KH₂PO₄. Topped up the tanks with RO/DI last night to account for 4 weeks of evaporation and the pH has appeared to have settled back down to nearer where it's equilibrium point of 7.8 should be. I emptied and refilled my trace (flushed lines also) it was nearly empty and there was a little bacterial growth in there, using a smaller amount this time decanted from the fridge so it doesn't have months to go off. I tested for both NO₃ and P, NO₃ via the API titration kit read about 10-20ppm (it's lying through its teeth of course because when I've calibrated the kit before it gave me a 40ppm+ reading for a 10ppm calibration value), so N would appear to be very low (adjusting for the calibrated values) but non zero. The P gave me a perceptible colour change indicating P is still present but it's Indicating the lowest value readable hence dosing it tomorrow. If neither of these things changes the symptoms, I believe my best option is to perform the water change to reset everything to avoid me sending ratios everywhere by dosing this and that.


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## HiNtZ (4 Dec 2018)

X3NiTH said:


> I would have left the curled leaves on so that if you dose anything and it unfurls then you found your deficient element, if nothing happens and more leaves curl then move on to another element. A few extra ppm of K won't do any harm, I'd dose it via KH₂PO₄ because if any things likely to react (Fe) and bottom out quicker it's likely the P so it wouldn't harm to add it.
> 
> I have more curling today and a couple of small Buce leaves melted. I am seeing same symptoms in both tanks now, (infrequent trace dosing (got an infrequent dose yesterday, melt today) and daily trace). I dosed some MgNO3 for the N, if there's no sign of improvement by tomorrow I'll dose P via KH₂PO₄. Topped up the tanks with RO/DI last night to account for 4 weeks of evaporation and the pH has appeared to have settled back down to nearer where it's equilibrium point of 7.8 should be. I emptied and refilled my trace (flushed lines also) it was nearly empty and there was a little bacterial growth in there, using a smaller amount this time decanted from the fridge so it doesn't have months to go off. I tested for both NO₃ and P, NO₃ via the API titration kit read about 10-20ppm (it's lying through its teeth of course because when I've calibrated the kit before it gave me a 40ppm+ reading for a 10ppm calibration value), so N would appear to be very low (adjusting for the calibrated values) but non zero. The P gave me a perceptible colour change indicating P is still present but it's Indicating the lowest value readable hence dosing it tomorrow. If neither of these things changes the symptoms, I believe my best option is to perform the water change to reset everything to avoid me sending ratios everywhere by dosing this and that.



In the past I waited and waited for the leaves to unfurl and they never did so I pinch them off these days. Pretty sure now that it must be a blip with CO2 (I was messing around with it earlier in the week).

My NO3 has gone up and PO4 has stayed at 1ppm. I've added 5ppm of K (K2SO4) so will see the next couple days. I must say I have been very tempted to dose P but restrained myself. I've got no GSA so until that moment, I won't.

Going to water change maybe Thursday night I think then dose very small amount (1/4 dose) of commercial trace daily with 2ppm K, again with no N and no P.

Do you have a journal about the tank you are experimenting with?


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## X3NiTH (5 Dec 2018)

HiNtZ said:


> How do you add nickel? NiSO4? I suppose this is dodgy territory if one was to mess up, right?



Trying to dose it directly will lead to issues, because the weight is so marginal for the dose and accuracy of weight is paramount it's easier to weigh a larger dose and prepare a solution that you can then decant a volume of liquid that would give you the ppm needed. I used 100ml bottles with the salt weighing enough to give me a solution that is dosed at 10ml - 5L for my target dose (1ml - 500ml is how much I use for traces that I make up and store).




 

I could weigh out smaller amounts but I want accuracy and the scales become less accurate the lower the weight goes (the scale is 0.01g resolution with an accuracy of +/- 0.01g so larger amounts better accuracy).



HiNtZ said:


> Do you have a journal about the tank you are experimenting with?



I do but I haven't kept it up to date, you can access it through the link in my sig, I lost enthusiasm when the tank went bang.


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## X3NiTH (15 Dec 2018)

The update to my 4 week waterchange plan was the day after my last post a Cherry Red Buce senesced a leaf and a few more leaves elsewhere curled and I wasn't going to chance testing the problem was the need to dose extra phosphate (still registered on a test) so I performed a 75% waterchange and things appear are all back to normal now (senescence has halted, curling halted although not yet recovered and a Theia blue is throwing up a flower (? Stress response)). Lesson learned - two weeks between water changes needs an extra dose of nitrate and phosphate if going for a longer water change period, end of third week perform a 75% water change, leave it longer and issues will appear.


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## HiNtZ (23 Dec 2018)

X3NiTH said:


> Trying to dose it directly will lead to issues, because the weight is so marginal for the dose and accuracy of weight is paramount it's easier to weigh a larger dose and prepare a solution that you can then decant a volume of liquid that would give you the ppm needed. I used 100ml bottles with the salt weighing enough to give me a solution that is dosed at 10ml - 5L for my target dose (1ml - 500ml is how much I use for traces that I make up and store).
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yeah I thought as much - I was pleased to see Zorfox's fert calculator had it in the list and had a look at what amount (in wight) equated to different PPMs. It made me think of getting some Tanitas to really get it spot on.

I know how you feel about updates.... I'd like to give them more regularly but I have things come up where I miss a dose, and it just makes things worse but, I have made some observations still:

The below is a bit [TL;DR] - sorry. Skip to bottom for short version....

The week I documented here earlier was no ferts at all. Things looked good but at day three I felt things were going downhill. I knew I couldn't do without full spectrum fertilising but I wanted to see what true deficiencies looked like and I understand that at least a little better now from that week. So I went back to EI on micros and macros (7.5ppm NO3 1.3ppm PO4 day 1.3.5) and a close to EI micro dose day 2.4.6 using profito. Probably for about 0.3ppm Fe as a proxy. Well, that was a bad week to say the least. Water quality was again, terrible.... looked like milk. This is more than likely the suffering plants creating this problem. I thought it was algae bloom first but soon dismissed that. Also pretty sure it wasn't the Fe precipitating because I find in my tanks after a dose of iron it clouds a little but has a kind of blue tinge to it rather than being pure white, and, it soon clears in those tanks. In my high tech it doesn't. It also appeared on day 1 before any iron had been added.

I'm really convinced adding KNO3 as per EI causes me problems, or just adding any NO3 at all (although not when from urea). Cloudy water, K deficiency symptoms and degrading older leaves.... stunted growth, discolouration and the plants just sit in this stasis  doing nothing.

Adding urea at around 0.5ppm and omitting KNO3 every day shows positive and noticeable effects like older leaves staying healthier for longer, yet still ultimately dying. Little growth spurts can be observed but they are short lived. I think I can use urea as the only form of N. I think maybe if the plants use the urea before it gets converted to N, like if I dose it at peak time of plant absorption that would limit the amount of N lingering at the end of the day as my plants really either don't like to consume nitrogen, or elevated levels make them not want it. Either way the NO3 just seems to be on the up and up throughout the week with EI except the times when I don't add KNO3, even the smallest amount. 

Now - not adding PO4 = bad. Like REALLY bad. I think this has been the issue all along. But "you were adding 0.65ppm a day! That should be at least adequate?" I hear you say..... well yes, but with the 7.5ppm NO3 going in with it, I was showing PO4 deficiency symptoms (obviously induced) like darker old growth, green spot on glass and crypts, old leaves falling off despite maximum CO2 and flow. New growth (if any) was usually a normal shape but very small. I noticed leaves were pinker in hue with reddish veins. Stems between nodes especially on r. rotundifolia were deep purple. Anthocyanin production overload? Could it be linked to low P? I dunno - all I know is when I add P it's like switching on a growth switch....  but only when I don't add any NO3 as KNO3.

I used to suspect K but have put that one to bed now. I'm confident elevated levels of K causes no issues for me at least. In fact, I noticed that elevated levels of K seemed to alleviate the symptoms. Keeping the plants just holding on and not dying, but not growing either.

Traces - I think there are still issues with standard dosing them at recommended quantities in my tank for some strange reason (the softer water?). Obviously I again need "some", not least since I've been making up the water as discussed originally in this thread. Unlike tap water there is nothing being introduced that I don't know about. So I've decided to cut back hugely on them. I'm talking 1/20 the dose.

To recap, I am still doing the water recipe from X3n1th - I love it. I'm even making my own carbonated water. It is arduous and not for everyone for sure - but I enjoy the process and the peace of mind of what's exactly in my water. I believe this is a great help when you're trying to narrow an imbalance or deficiency of something. You can literally rule out a handful of nutrients in one swoop and concentrate on the others. I will therefore be doing this from now on, but maybe going to 2-3 week water changes, or, weekly partial (instead of 50%) water changes.

So here is the recipe I am using for the water

*GH: 6 KH: 6.6 - POTASSIUM*





*CaCO3 - 6g in 75L = 32.04ppm Ca*

*4.47 dKH*

*4.47 dGH*



*MgCO3 - 0.75g in 75L = 2.88ppm Mg*

*0.66 dGH*

*0.83 dKH*



*KHCO3 – 2.67g in 75L = 1 dKH*

*14 K*



*MgCl2 - 0.93g in 75L = 0.35 dGH*

*1.5ppm Mg*

*4.37 Cl*



*MgSo4 - 2.8g in 75L = 0.6 dGH*

*3.12 Mg*

*4.05 S*





*dGH 6.08*

*dKH 6.65*





*Ca 32.04ppm*

*Mg 7.5ppm*

*S 4.05ppm*

*K 14ppm*

*Cl 4.37ppm*



*Ratio: 4.3/1*


That's a good clean start to a week I think. Everything I need for the basic water chemistry, not too much, nor too little. I've not seen definitive numbers for optimal S and Cl for example. Something makes me think S in it's concentration and consumption rate is probably on a par with Mg. Whether equal amounts of S and Mg hold any benefits I don't know but I'd like to try.... I can do this quite easily now with this new water method. A true sulfur deficiency is something else I want to see first hand. This too is possible for me now.

I thought about what you do with front loading the macros. I did want to try that until I became wary of the KNO3 so scrapped that idea, albeit not totally. I get the 7ppm K (in tank total) from the WC water and have this last water change (17th) added about 6g of GH booster to bring hardness up a little more to about 8gh, plus the K it contains (what, 5-8 ppm?). The day after the WC and adding the booster, the water was crystal clear. I've never seen it so transparent. I can actually look down the length of the tank and not physically see anything in between. I'm sure this is something to do with the GH booster. I've noted it in other tanks a couple of times.... anyway, it was about this time I would start an EI week and slowly watch the tank deteriorate and watch my water cloud up etc plus black beard, cladro, green spot, a few specs of cyano on the sand line. Pfff, I'm not playing that game anymore.

And so my week continued as follows

17th 0.5ppm PO4 0.5ppm urea
18th same
19th same
20th same
21st same + 0.25ppm Fe (EDTA/DTPA) dosed 3 hours apart
22nd 2ppm PO4


On those days the plant health was like this

17 so so
18 some noticeable growth
19 same again
20 no change
21 quite a few leaves fell off my stellatus in one sitting - was quite strange
22 having done an NO3 test the night of the 21st (I know, I know... not calibrated either) it seemed high so I thought no urea today, just PO4 and not 0.5ppm, but 2ppm in one dose. That was this morning at 6am, I went out and came back just before lights off and there's been an explosion of growth. The leaves are noticeably much more massive than I've seen for a long long time. Rotala stems are losing that purple stem burn they had, sprouting new sprouts at each node, cardamine leaves looking like great progress, crypts, are always great but they look especially nice at the moment. Stauro, sunset, HC are not looking great but not dead. Stellatus is looking good at the top despite losing all lower leaves so quickly. The surface of the water and my skimmer was smothered with its leaves in the morning. Wisteria is looking bushier and old growth colour is holding well.

Tomorrow's dose (23rd) I think I will give it another little 1ppm of PO4 but no urea or iron etc. I have a hunch that what I need to be doing is adding 1ppm a day PO4 to maintain a level of 3-4ppm while keeping NO3 at around 10-15ppm dosing just urea to get a little N and letting the fish/feeding provide the rest.

I'm not saying NO3 is my problem. It's essential, but me adding more as KNO3 seems to cause me headaches and poor plant health.

Over xmas and the new year I'll be running this new regime while trying to integrate that super small dose of micros and maybe a tad supplementary iron (in the region of 0.02ppm per dose increasing slowly). In the last two days I've seen growth I used to see when I first started and everything was peachy. I hope that this is it finally!

I'll take and post pics tomorrow.


SHORT VERSION:

What I think I should be doing


Don't dose KNO3
Smidge of Fe every couple days
Drop of traces (not sure where yet)
PO4 EVERY DAY
K front loaded
Urea daily but - sparing. 0.3-0.5ppm


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## HiNtZ (25 Dec 2018)

Here's a pic as it stands now.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1_PHnZykcF2LuMjzEkLmLkkest6EOkWgd

I've trimmed back a couple times, raised the wood bit but that's about it.

I'm going to do 1 more week with a small amount of KNO3 because I can't believe I don't need any. Although growth was noticeably better health with no KNO3, it was also a lot slower . There's still a part of me that thinks just 1 more week of no micros will show yet morepositive results. Things seem to be getting better without them.

So this week what I'll do is:

3ppm NO3 (from KNO3)
0.6ppm urea
1ppm PO4
1ppm K (there's like 15ppm front loaded)

3 x over the week.


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## HiNtZ (27 Dec 2018)

Sorry no photos. Will get some close ones up as the cardamine is going that weird tortoise shell pattern on old leaves again like when I stopped dosing Mg in the past with harder water. Repens is just static and pale.

I don't understand why these symptoms are showing again when I have what should be ample Mg for the week going in with the reconstituted water. Especially considering the mild Ca concentration.

I've added 5ppm Mg as MgSO4 tonight and will observe. I may add another 5 ppm the day after tomorrow which will see Mg levels at close to a 1/1 with Ca.

Maybe with lower Ca concentrations a tighter ratio to Mg might be beneficial/required. In very hard, Mg deficient water I only added 3ppm a week along with EI with great results.

Worth a go!


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## X3NiTH (28 Dec 2018)

HiNtZ said:


> I don't understand why these symptoms are showing again when I have what should be ample Mg for the week going in with the reconstituted water. Especially considering the mild Ca concentration.



I observed the same thing and after reading up a whole lot more the apparent fix was fortifying my trace (was using FComp and FTrace at this point) with extra Manganese so that it was dosed at 0.05mg/L daily, a ratio of 3:1 Fe:Mn.


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## HiNtZ (6 Jan 2019)

X3NiTH said:


> I observed the same thing and after reading up a whole lot more the apparent fix was fortifying my trace (was using FComp and FTrace at this point) with extra Manganese so that it was dosed at 0.05mg/L daily, a ratio of 3:1 Fe:Mn.



I read something similar somewhere - the relationship between Mg/Fe/Mn. I can't make heads or tails of it either way but did try more traces (daily in fact) and observed some slight improvements but nothing to write home about.

With hindsight in what we are discussing recently I think I'm barking up the wrong tree....

CO2 still appears to be an issue for me (which is really difficult for me to publicly admit to), it seems after each WC I need to up the BPS slightly to attain the same concentration of CO2 in the water.

Since I've been quiet on the thread I have been continuing with the water recipe (which I love by the way) except I have dropped the KHCO3 from the regime. I am compensating for the lost KH it gave with MgCO3 instead.

I've also kept NO3 at 10ppm and PO4 at 1ppm (with nothing added) and been adding profito (standard dose) broken up into 3 x a week. Flow was increased just to eliminate it as a factor. This along with increasing the CO2 only 2 days ago I reduced light intensity by 50%

Obviously it will be some days before I can see if progress is being made. I can see new shoots on every node of rotundifolia already, though they are a bit yellow looking. S. Repens is not happy, baby tears is hanging on for dear life but sometimes starts growing then stops. Wisteria is doing fine, sunset is looking better (no more rolling up leaves). Had some crypt melt which worries me as they are usually solid. f fontanus is doing quite well. Cardamine is stunted and deformed. Stellatus despite losing all its lower leaves is growing healthy up top. I doubt now the lower leaves problem was PO4, instead I believe CO2.

The long and short of all that's been discussed and tried here is that I am happy with the water I'm making - it has definitely helped not to push my trials over the edge where I would have long recovery times to rectify the damage - when I water change, I feel I start with a much cleaner slate than my tap. It takes a lot of the guess work out, which most of my experiments are really :/


----------



## X3NiTH (6 Jan 2019)

HiNtZ said:


> CO2 still appears to be an issue for me (which is really difficult for me to publicly admit to), it seems after each WC I need to up the BPS slightly to attain the same concentration of CO2 in the water.



Which is precisely a tough nut to crack and why I use pH controllers to dispense CO₂ so that I can treat the gas as free and not be meagre with it. I know they get a lot of hate but personally I feel that is unjustifiable, accuracy of the actual pH reading is not wholly important with their use but what is desired is that they work consistently in a range that corresponds to the addition of CO₂ and this I have found to be the case. For me to eliminate CO₂ controller inaccuracy as a variable in poor plant health I needed absolute consistency in my water parameters to ensure the pH range the probes were detecting (super cheap probes, less than £10 each on eBay, calibrated with JBL pH4.1 and pH7.1 calibration kit) was similarly consistent and that there is always maximal fish safe CO₂ saturation by the time the lights come (that first hour or so I feel is really important), the ubiquitous drop checker is my correlation tool. The water recipe was partly designed to ensure good conductivity in the water to allow the controller to give consistent readings day in and day out. Currently the probes are still reading the exact same ranges and it's been at least four months since I last calibrated the probes. 

I should also add that my tanks are nearly effectively sealed with only about a half inch aperture to allow gas exchange with the atmosphere during the day (aerated from an air pump plus O₂ generation from the DIY electrolysis/electrocoagulation thingimy I'm running at night to ensure maximal O₂ saturation to discount that as a factor in poor plant health (night suffocation)) so that the atmosphere above the surface of the tank water has a higher CO₂ concentration than the background to help with recirculation in the system. I mainly covered the tank to eliminate anthropogenic dust contaminants from entering the system and fouling the water surface reducing gas permeability (I don't use a surface skimmer but I do have a vigorous surface flow to keep it clear and also maximise surface area to promote gas exchange). 

Generally speaking there is a need to turn variabilities into consistencies. I can say that CO₂ is one of my consistencies, consistently maximal even with a slow 0.1 variable every couple of hours (UP Aqua). Through observation this small variable is no great detriment to plants and it appears not to ensure algae thrives because of this, this even with a 0.2 variable (Weipro), maximal CO₂ within the first lit hour or two is what counts most.


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## HiNtZ (15 Jan 2019)

X3NiTH said:


> Which is precisely a tough nut to crack and why I use pH controllers to dispense CO₂ so that I can treat the gas as free and not be meagre with it. I know they get a lot of hate but personally I feel that is unjustifiable, accuracy of the actual pH reading is not wholly important with their use but what is desired is that they work consistently in a range that corresponds to the addition of CO₂ and this I have found to be the case. For me to eliminate CO₂ controller inaccuracy as a variable in poor plant health I needed absolute consistency in my water parameters to ensure the pH range the probes were detecting (super cheap probes, less than £10 each on eBay, calibrated with JBL pH4.1 and pH7.1 calibration kit) was similarly consistent and that there is always maximal fish safe CO₂ saturation by the time the lights come (that first hour or so I feel is really important), the ubiquitous drop checker is my correlation tool. The water recipe was partly designed to ensure good conductivity in the water to allow the controller to give consistent readings day in and day out. Currently the probes are still reading the exact same ranges and it's been at least four months since I last calibrated the probes.
> 
> I should also add that my tanks are nearly effectively sealed with only about a half inch aperture to allow gas exchange with the atmosphere during the day (aerated from an air pump plus O₂ generation from the DIY electrolysis/electrocoagulation thingimy I'm running at night to ensure maximal O₂ saturation to discount that as a factor in poor plant health (night suffocation)) so that the atmosphere above the surface of the tank water has a higher CO₂ concentration than the background to help with recirculation in the system. I mainly covered the tank to eliminate anthropogenic dust contaminants from entering the system and fouling the water surface reducing gas permeability (I don't use a surface skimmer but I do have a vigorous surface flow to keep it clear and also maximise surface area to promote gas exchange).
> 
> Generally speaking there is a need to turn variabilities into consistencies. I can say that CO₂ is one of my consistencies, consistently maximal even with a slow 0.1 variable every couple of hours (UP Aqua). Through observation this small variable is no great detriment to plants and it appears not to ensure algae thrives because of this, this even with a 0.2 variable (Weipro), maximal CO₂ within the first lit hour or two is what counts most.



I wish I had't sold the PH controller I had last year. I never did try it because of things I'd read. Should have probably given it a go.... then again, with the big EI doses and all sorts of other stuff that was going in maybe it would have caused more problems than it solved? Either way, my CO2 was way off for my lighting. I noticed improvements within a few days but as the EI doses progressed through that week it started to go down hill, again.

It really seems to be a problem with macros. It's like I simply cannot have more than 10ppm NO3 without getting problems. PO4 I'm not sure about yet - I seem to be able to get away with lows of 0.5ppm but always feel the need to add some, so I usually do. 

This week I'm only doing traces, no macro (including K) with this newly set CO2 level. I know I'm on the limit because my fish tend to hug the surface a little bit.

The last WC I didn't use the KHCO3 so there is literally no potassium going in the tank from any direction. I'm going to wait until I see true K deficiency then start at 1ppm a day.

It doesn't look too shabby - as soon as I reduce NO3 rotala goes from spindly to big lobes. Cardamine leaves much bigger, crypts go darker. I will nail this one day!

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1w4q3ThNoYR8uQAUoDo0P8Jvd3DK57b8R


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## HiNtZ (15 Jan 2019)

I've been thinking about something, and that something is sulfur...

This reconstitution mix I'm doing gives me around 6ppm of S and I recall reading somewhere that adequate levels of S (which normally isn't an issue using tap water) has a relationship with N and its utilization.

If I shave off some CaCO3 and replace it with some CaSO4, where will I get the 2KH I've dropped from? I don't really want to use the KHCO3 because that will get me 27ppm of K. Nor do I want to increase it through MgSO4.

Any ideas?


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## dw1305 (16 Jan 2019)

Hi all, 





HiNtZ said:


> This reconstitution mix I'm doing gives me around 6ppm of S and I recall reading somewhere that adequate levels of S (which normally isn't an issue using tap water) has a relationship with N and its utilization.


That is plenty of sulphur (S), you don't need to add any more.

cheers Darrel


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## HiNtZ (16 Jan 2019)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, That is plenty of sulphur (S), you don't need to add any more.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Thanks Darrel - I figured S would be required in about the same amounts as Mg. Would this assumption hold any truth? I'm experimenting anyway up to around 25ppm to see if there is anything to observe.

As for today, I think I'm starting to piece together these problems. I did another water change without including KHCO3 (which would ultimately give me about 7ppm in tank) and this happened 12 hours later to my sunset:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1dI4clFSn3Qd_BCsCXMSpybFRJt2wR-Mz

I've added just K today at 15ppm to see what happens over the next few days.

Everything right now is pointing to more N than K is a problem for me. If I keep N low and K high things seem to go a lot better. There's definitely some adjustment I can do to micros but I really need to sort out this apparent macro issue first.

The table below shows my intentions for next water change.


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## dw1305 (16 Jan 2019)

Hi all, 





HiNtZ said:


> I figured S would be required in about the same amounts as Mg.


Similar amounts, <"a bit less for sulphur (S)">.

On the photo as well as the leaf curling the new leaves <"look smaller and paler green">? If they are then that suggests iron (Fe) or manganese (Mn) deficiencies (they both cause chlorosis of new leaves, because <"they aren't mobile in the plant">).

I don't know what causes the leaf curling.

cheers Darrel


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## HiNtZ (16 Jan 2019)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, Similar amounts, <"a bit less for sulphur (S)">.
> 
> On the photo as well as the leaf curling the new leaves <"look smaller and paler green">? If they are then that suggests iron (Fe) or manganese (Mn) deficiencies (they both cause chlorosis of new leaves, because <"they aren't mobile in the plant">).
> 
> ...



I've tried 3 different commercial micro ferts as well as APF traces, including extra Fe of various chelates. The more I lard on the worse it gets.

The leaves that are curled in the photo I would consider to be closer to "old" than "new" - they've been there a while not doing much until WC where they almost instantly rolled up. The new leaves have a more upwards cup shape to them which I'd be more inclined to think was Ca or a micro? Either way, I've always had older leaf problems before newer leaf problems if that makes sense. 

Since dumping the K in, the whole tank is pearling like mad already. Could this really be a K deficiency? Something to do with osmotic pressure in the leaves not being maintained? I'll post a pic tomorrow side by side with the one I took today - see if it alleviates the roll.


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## ian_m (16 Jan 2019)

No sure what I can add, but due to a timer failure I ran at 350ppm NO3 (as KNO3), 40ppm PO4 and 50ppm Mg for a while, with absolutely no observable effect on plants and fish. Only noticed when a week later heard whirring of dosing pump as timer had jammed on. Basically emptied a 1 litre container of EI mix into my tank the day after I filled it and only found this out a week later.

As nothing interesting appeared to be happening plants (or fish) just did a 50% water change (front lawn benefitted from liquid fertiliser) and ran the next week with 170ppm NO3, 20ppm PO4 and 25ppm Mg + my normal EI dosing regime. Eventually after many weeks the levels would have returned to EI levels.

Really disappointing really (and cost of wasted EI ferts) as nothing happened plant wise, they just grew at there normal high tech rate, clearly enough ferts provided. Bit worried about lack of Fe due to micro reaction with the phosphate but no yellowing seen everything carried on as if nothing had happened.

The timer jamming was one of the reasons I built my PLC controller.


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## HiNtZ (23 Jan 2019)

ian_m said:


> No sure what I can add, but due to a timer failure I ran at 350ppm NO3 (as KNO3), 40ppm PO4 and 50ppm Mg for a while, with absolutely no observable effect on plants and fish. Only noticed when a week later heard whirring of dosing pump as timer had jammed on. Basically emptied a 1 litre container of EI mix into my tank the day after I filled it and only found this out a week later.
> 
> As nothing interesting appeared to be happening plants (or fish) just did a 50% water change (front lawn benefitted from liquid fertiliser) and ran the next week with 170ppm NO3, 20ppm PO4 and 25ppm Mg + my normal EI dosing regime. Eventually after many weeks the levels would have returned to EI levels.
> 
> ...



I've never had a mishap like that happen but have intentionally run much higher levels of everything more or less. I've also experimented with not adding anything, or only very little and I still can't interpret where the problem lies. Even completely removing and limiting elements such as sodium, and sulfates, and chloride.... 

I'm flaky with documenting things - I just remember things (or try to) and how they were with a set dosing regime at that time. But I do remember in my early days of EI it was working great!

I think I'm on the right track now with magnesium. I'm certain this is the aggravator for me at least. In my early years of EI my water was hard at 14GH, and mostly calcium. My EI recipe had 3ppm of Mg going in a week and things were pretty good for about a year. Then I moved to cutting tap with RO and this is where the problems came. I kept the EI regime the same, as well as everything else from flow to co2 and light. The results were poor. Obvious iron deficiency and chlorosis, induced Ca deficiency symptoms and pin holes in leaves despite adding K at various concentrations - nothing was working. 

I could have just gone back to tap but I really wanted to understand the problem rather than avoid it. I wanted to make it work. Yet I'm here like 3 years later still scratching my head. I'm ticking all the boxes and getting nothing. 

SO - this week I done a sneaky 50% water change with JUST 32ppm CaSO4 and absolutely no magnesium any which way. I'll just have to get some calcium chloride to make up what the MgCl2 was giving me in Cl.

And the results are...... actually pretty good so far. Leaves are looking more pumped up and bigger with it. Also look a lot greener. Growth rate has increased dramatically.

There's something in this I'm sure - there's some guys in Sweden who seem to have the exact same issues as I whenever they dose Mg. Even a few ppm above whatever that evidently extremely low threshold for them is causing havoc with plant health.

I'm going to concentrate the next few weeks on completely getting whatever amount of Mg is in the tank, out, then go with 2ppm a week in the change water giving 1ppm in the tank and see where that goes. A 1/32 ratio of Ca:Mg will be interesting but thinking about it, that's where the ratio was more or less in the beginning when I was using tap water and having great growth.

I'll report back at some point either way with some observations.


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## HiNtZ (24 Jan 2019)

Here's some pics from today....

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1J4YfD6JO0Ieun1Z9DFf73okmpKJYx-U4


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## X3NiTH (24 Jan 2019)

Lowering Magnesium is on my list of things I could adjust, as an example the reasoning behind this is that the information I have seen on Fire Assay of Interstitial soils in Forrest over Limestone (Buce Habitat) is they have on average a Ca:Mg of 10:1. Trying to understand the levels retained in the soils presents a challenge (not considering the ratio in source water as that data didn't come along with the soil data), is the Mg content low because more is uptaken by plants or is it a naturalised ratio due to the increased solubility of Mg over Ca when stored in these soils due to CEC (in this case the CEC number is 210 m-equivalent per 100g dry weight at 105'c), I don't pretend to know exactly what that number means but it's a high number so the soil has a large CEC. 

I am using a ratio of 3:1 because that is what is generally found in plant tissue after fire assay, it could be that this is not the most most synergistic ratio for soils or waters and that plant uptake of Ca and Mg doesn't necessarily correlate with the available ratio in the source. Uptake/Availability and Synergism/Antagonism conundrum, 3:1 Ca:Mg may be the Synergistic Uptake ratio on the plant side but may be Availably Antagonistic on the source side and it takes a ratio of 10:1 on the source side for Ca and Mg to be Synergistically Available and stored at a ratio of 3:1. And that's just considering one type of plant (Buce), these ratios could shift depending on the adaptability of other plants, the less adaptable a plant is the more precise conditions/ratios need to be for growth (without deficiency) for example Vallis needing harder water than say Moss does to thrive.

I'm sticking with 3:1 for the time being though in the offchance I'm overthinking all of the above.


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## HiNtZ (28 Jan 2019)

X3NiTH said:


> Lowering Magnesium is on my list of things I could adjust, as an example the reasoning behind this is that the information I have seen on Fire Assay of Interstitial soils in Forrest over Limestone (Buce Habitat) is they have on average a Ca:Mg of 10:1. Trying to understand the levels retained in the soils presents a challenge (not considering the ratio in source water as that data didn't come along with the soil data), is the Mg content low because more is uptaken by plants or is it a naturalised ratio due to the increased solubility of Mg over Ca when stored in these soils due to CEC (in this case the CEC number is 210 m-equivalent per 100g dry weight at 105'c), I don't pretend to know exactly what that number means but it's a high number so the soil has a large CEC.
> 
> I am using a ratio of 3:1 because that is what is generally found in plant tissue after fire assay, it could be that this is not the most most synergistic ratio for soils or waters and that plant uptake of Ca and Mg doesn't necessarily correlate with the available ratio in the source. Uptake/Availability and Synergism/Antagonism conundrum, 3:1 Ca:Mg may be the Synergistic Uptake ratio on the plant side but may be Availably Antagonistic on the source side and it takes a ratio of 10:1 on the source side for Ca and Mg to be Synergistically Available and stored at a ratio of 3:1. And that's just considering one type of plant (Buce), these ratios could shift depending on the adaptability of other plants, the less adaptable a plant is the more precise conditions/ratios need to be for growth (without deficiency) for example Vallis needing harder water than say Moss does to thrive.
> 
> I'm sticking with 3:1 for the time being though in the offchance I'm overthinking all of the above.



Could it be that in terrestrial plant soils a tighter ratio, or more Mg can be tolerated as it is at the roots as opposed to touching every leaf in water. I saw a video where someone with a hydro setup sprayed the leaves with an MgSO4 mixture and they greened up real quick. He was suffering a deficiency but said something along the lines the Mg gets to work a lot quicker sprayed on leaves than if he adds it to just the water the root balls are in.

Since the last water change (about 3 days ago) with no Mg added the tank has hoovered up 25ppm of NO3 and 2ppm of PO4! By day 3 with the higher Mg content NO3 would rise and PO4 wouldn't budge.

I'm doing a water change tonight with the change water made up like this using CaCO3, CaCl2, CaSO4, MgCO3, KHCO3

Ca 40ppm
Mg 2.8ppm
S   9.6ppm
Cl  14ppm
K   13ppm

GH 6.1
KH 4.6

I will be double dosing macro too - 10ppm NO3 + 2.6ppm PO4 3 x week with traces as:

B       0.06
Cu     0.01
Fe     0.5
Mn    0.1
Mo    0.009
Zn     0.07

3 x week


Let's see how this goes......

It would be interesting if in the future you decide to bring the Mg down what results (if any) you may have.


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## dw1305 (29 Jan 2019)

Hi all, 





HiNtZ said:


> He was suffering a deficiency but said something along the lines the Mg gets to work a lot quicker sprayed on leaves than if he adds it to just the water the root balls are in.


You can foliar feed terrestrial plants with magnesium (Mg) and you get a <"quick greening response"> (if it was deficient), but I'm not sure it would make much difference in the tank, probably just a little bit quicker from the water column.





X3NiTH said:


> I have seen on Fire Assay of Interstitial soils in Forrest over Limestone (Buce Habitat) is they have on average a Ca:Mg of 10:1.


I'd be really surprised if the exact calcium:magnesium ratio was relevant.

cheers Darrel


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## Ady34 (29 Jan 2019)

Hi,
how are people measuring the amounts used? I can understand how you quantify what’s going in, but what is being used to measure the consumption?
Thanks
Ady.


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## HiNtZ (30 Jan 2019)

Ady34 said:


> Hi,
> how are people measuring the amounts used? I can understand how you quantify what’s going in, but what is being used to measure the consumption?
> Thanks
> Ady.



There's not much else than trial and error for me and watching the plants

I know what IS normal and what ISN'T growth - I just don't know how to correlate the abnormal growth to a cause. So I either leave a mineral out, or add one in and try every which way I can. If I suspect there might be an excess of anything I do a few massive water changes and reset the tank.

This was the whole point of this thread initially - I wanted to make up my water with exact amounts from scratch so using Zorfox's absolutely excellent calculator, the great advice on this thread from members and, buying in the base minerals, I could make up water with different combinations of minerals and macros without adding anything extra (like sodium) - in fact, sodium I'd say is at trace levels if anything. Just an example of something I thought WAS a problem but turned out not to be. I'm still leaving it out though.

But what you're saying about consumption - I for example guess (which is the best I can do without taking any measurements) magnesium is consumed at 1ppm a week. SO I will start adding 1ppm a week..... if I see deficiencies I'll up it again, and again etc etc and if no change is noted I'd drop back and try something else.


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## X3NiTH (30 Jan 2019)

dw1305 said:


> I'd be really surprised if the exact calcium:magnesium ratio was relevant.



Yeah I'm of the same opinion, doesn't hurt to ruminate on the minutia in a paper on Borneos forests though. I am leaning toward the 10:1 ratio in the interstitial soil as a byproduct of Magnesium having a 10x solubility ratio than Calcium and that weathered limestone (or evaporative conditions at water margins) forms part of the sample bumping the ratio up, the soil itself will be the broken remains of other riparian/epiphytic plants that collects in the cracks and crevices forming a matrix over/amongst the limestone, given all things equal that tissue would have Ca:Mg to give up in a ratio of 3:1. 



HiNtZ said:


> It would be interesting if in the future you decide to bring the Mg down what results (if any) you may have.



Before I even start messing with ratios again I want to try in another tank to bring the water conductivity right down to the levels that Buce see in the wild in pristine Forrest over limestone to see what happens. The conductivity is 40 micro Siemens, taken from a water sample on the Kelian River above the Kelian Gold deposit (this is the paper the data is from), Alkalinity as CaCO₃ 13.47ppm, SO4 5ppm, Fe 0.06ppm, Mn 0.01ppm, Zn 0.01ppm, Ni <0.02ppm, Cu 0.00ppm (likely present in ppb). No idea for B, Mo and other trace elements, they will be there though in the ppb/ppt range.



Ady34 said:


> I can understand how you quantify what’s going in, but what is being used to measure the consumption.



In my situation mainly through observation of negative plant response (Bucephalandra) to something bottoming out or accumulating when extending water change periods. I have tested for how Iron (mix of Gluconated Iron and DTPA) behaves in my tank when dosed so I can dose daily along with the other traces (unchelated) to an amount where Iron shouldn't accumulate to any great significance between water changes. As I front load my Macro dose at water change (ideally weekly) I can extend the period between the water changes allowing me to see negative responses in the plant, which is that new leaf growth slowed and it took three weeks for first leaf to curl in a Blue Theia, an upward rolling curl to a whole leaf, a Cherry Red new grown leaf curled tightly downward around the perimeter, Motleyana Wavy Green curls its leaves anyway so tough to say what's going on with that, it straight out melts on me when its really unhappy, Theia does that too to a lesser extent. It was near on 4 weeks for the first sign of leaf senescence in the Blue Theia. Week two saw me add back MgNo3 and KH₂PO₄ at the amount I would normally put in at water change, on titration testing PO₄ had completely bottomed out, Nitrate was still present (perceived accuracy/inaccuracy of the consumer titration tests considered, especially the nitrate), I would have dosed it again at the end of week 4 but I chickened out and performed a 75%ish water change (because I've seen seen the horror of Bucemaggedon too many times to become bored of it, not as scary as Anubiageddon though, that movie had killer worms in it!). I am as yet undecided if the deficiencies leading to melt are due to an element bottoming out or something else detrimentally accumulating (metal toxicity from unchelated traces arising past week three)

I have to say I have a Triffid in the tank (3ft Crypt Balansae in the corner of a 12inch Cube and it drapes across the surface providing a large amount of shade for the Buce below, still throwing out new leaves), it has its feet in a small pot of tropica soil which has not stopped it reaching the other end of the tank with some daughter plants growing in inert substrate. So a significant amount of ferts probably end up in that monster.

If I was not on a shoestring budget and I could go to town on this I would be measuring and logging data 24/7 with Ion Selective Electrodes.


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## dw1305 (30 Jan 2019)

Hi all,





X3NiTH said:


> The conductivity is 40 micro Siemens


Interesting, so very few ions of any description. It may be to do with the amount of precipitation, if it rained pretty much every day then the water would be ~rain-water and the underlying geography would be less relevant. 

Another possibility is that the solid geology isn't limestone, I know that gold deposits are usually in hard rock where it has undergone some subsequent volcanic activity. 

The <"geology of Borneo"> looks quite complex, so that doesn't really help.

cheers Darrel


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## HiNtZ (30 Jan 2019)

Have any of you caught the BBC's rivers of the world series on iPlayer right now? Saw one on the Amazon IIRC an there was a fresh spring annex on one part of the river where the water is practically pure. The fish were using it as a nursery to raise their fry.

Didn't catch many plants in there though.....


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## Oldguy (30 Jan 2019)

HiNtZ said:


> Saw one on the Amazon





X3NiTH said:


> Borneos forests


Have you read this book. I know wrong river, wrong continent, but good insights. Abstract (mine from memory): Basically no aquatic plants, no mosquitoes, virtually no minerals but lots of fish. Food chain is terrestrial into the water. Minerals such as they are wind blown from the sea, along long way away. Huge drainage catchment.
Rio Negro—Rich Life in Poor Water, by M. Goulding, M. Leal Carvalho & E.G. Ferreira. SPB Academic Publishing bv., P.O. Box 97747, 2509 GC The Hague, The Netherlands: xii + 200 pp., with 32 figures and 18 tables, 24 × 16 × 1 cm, paper cover, US $35, 1988.


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## X3NiTH (30 Jan 2019)

dw1305 said:


> Interesting, so very few ions of any description. It may be to do with the amount of precipitation, if it rained pretty much every day then the water would be ~rain-water and the underlying geography would be less relevant.



Average yearly precipitation 5 metres, lower altitudes seasonal variation, upper altitudes daily variation.

I found this paper to be an interesting read -

Trace metal and carbon isotopic variations in cave dripwater and stalagmite geochemistry from northern Borneo



dw1305 said:


> Another possibility is that the solid geology isn't limestone, I know that gold deposits are usually in hard rock where it has undergone some subsequent volcanic activity.
> 
> The <"geology of Borneo"> looks quite complex, so that doesn't really help.



The complexity is an understatement seeing as the place started out as an evaporative basin interspersed with hydrothermal vents, and over nMillions of years the minerals held within these formations that were left high and dry were then interspersed around the surrounding landscape due to hydro geologic processes and not just once but many times over. I reckon the modern average rainfall of 5m is peanuts compared to the precipitation it has seen in the past.

I came across this paper when I was looking up Iron sources in Borneo -

Origin of iron carbonate layers in Tertiary coastal sediments of Central Kalimantan Province (Borneo), Indonesia

(Researchgate link, the only other link I found for his once free document has now been paywalled @$38 for the PDF)

The underlying geology doesn't always have to be limestone, it all depends on where on the river you are growing and what part of that landscape has been mixed up and changed over time. I suspect this is why there is such a huge variation in Buce species due to their adaptability to the landscape they have found themselves laying roots in.



HiNtZ said:


> Have any of you caught the BBC's rivers of the world series on iPlayer right now? Saw one on the Amazon IIRC an there was a fresh spring annex on one part of the river where the water is practically pure. The fish were using it as a nursery to raise their fry.
> 
> Didn't catch many plants in there though.....



Yeah that's the only one I have watched so far, it's too short, the 10 minute bit at the end showing a little more detail about the spring and other planty places really could have done with about 4hrs of extra footage to satisfy my curiosity.



Oldguy said:


> Have you read this book.



No not read it. I've seen quite a few pristine areas like what's being discussed around Southeast Asia which has a not too dissimilar landscape to Borneo. I'd love to do Borneo itself but I am pretty sure I'd end up being persona non grata for the duration of a holiday getaway by irresistibly turning it into a field trip!


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## HiNtZ (31 Jan 2019)

Oldguy said:


> Have you read this book. I know wrong river, wrong continent, but good insights. Abstract (mine from memory): Basically no aquatic plants, no mosquitoes, virtually no minerals but lots of fish. Food chain is terrestrial into the water. Minerals such as they are wind blown from the sea, along long way away. Huge drainage catchment.
> Rio Negro—Rich Life in Poor Water, by M. Goulding, M. Leal Carvalho & E.G. Ferreira. SPB Academic Publishing bv., P.O. Box 97747, 2509 GC The Hague, The Netherlands: xii + 200 pp., with 32 figures and 18 tables, 24 × 16 × 1 cm, paper cover, US $35, 1988.



It definitely sounds like something I'd enjoy reading. I wonder if there is an e-book online somewhere?


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## HiNtZ (31 Jan 2019)

X3NiTH said:


> Yeah that's the only one I have watched so far, it's too short, the 10 minute bit at the end showing a little more detail about the spring and other planty places really could have done with about 4hrs of extra footage to satisfy my curiosity.



Tell me about it! A 5 minute segment on the most interesting part of the programme - really spoiled it for me.


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## HiNtZ (31 Jan 2019)

Some pics from today - warts and all.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1xzPsFACfaqYxvUg1gldYn3MoZvAexp5m

It's really annoying me that it screams iron from the chlorotic look. I have this same look regardless of Mg content so I'm probably almost ready to rule that out.

I just can't seem to get enough iron absorption with the EDTA traces from APF despite a PH of 6.2. I think I need some more iron options. Gluconate perhaps? I've tried from no trace dosing to 4 x and more Fe (EDTA DTPA EDDHA) and the symptoms still persist albeit a lot less with the DTPA/EDDHA.

Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

p.s had some clado appear 2 days after WC by the way. So this must be an imbalance as opposed to any excesses.

Edit: just bought some Flourish Iron - I'll work out a dosing regime using the APF traces as I'm sure the Fe in this is the problem, not the other metals. Along with the Seachem iron and maybe some EDTA 13% at 0.1ppm


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## X3NiTH (31 Jan 2019)

HiNtZ said:


> It's really annoying me that it screams iron from the chlorotic look. I have this same look regardless of Mg content so I'm probably almost ready to rule that out.



Bucephalandra Motleyana Wavy Green did this to me, pale old leaf growth leaf with dark veining (new Buce leaves are usually always very pale when they first unfurl). There was plenty of Magnesium in the water and this plant just wasn't able to utilise it, the move toward the way I'm doing things now alleviated this considerably. Java fern growth in the tank at the same time was a normal healthy green, but I find this plant to be a poor indicator of fertiliser levels and wouldn't be surprised if it could suck nutrients out of a vacuum.

You could always try some *BuceJuce TM. *  I could mix you up a batch and send you some.


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## Oldguy (1 Feb 2019)

HiNtZ said:


> EDTA 13% at 0.1ppm


I make my own based on EDTA FE 13% and a similar one with Traces and Fe. I adjust so that Fe is 0.1ppm and Cu and others are 0.001ppm and keep an eye on the shrimps.

Outlay was expensive but enough to last several life times. Took the view that if you mixed your own from dry, then you knew what you have.


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## HiNtZ (1 Feb 2019)

Oldguy said:


> I make my own based on EDTA FE 13% and a similar one with Traces and Fe. I adjust so that Fe is 0.1ppm and Cu and others are 0.001ppm and keep an eye on the shrimps.
> 
> Outlay was expensive but enough to last several life times. Took the view that if you mixed your own from dry, then you knew what you have.



That's what I want - the ability to experiment with individual elements. I'm even a bit sceptical of premixed traces because not every spoon out the bag is the same composition as the last. I'm sure the differences are minor and keeping a strict dosing regime would ensure that all elements, whether more in one scoop or less in another, are eventually getting to the tank.

I'm not striving to get a maintenance free tank that I can just set to auto-dose everything and be done with it. I like the messing around.


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## HiNtZ (5 Feb 2019)

OH MY GOD - this Flourish iron (gluconate) smells like a 10 day old curry!!! Absolutely rotten!

Things are pootling along, will post some pics tomorrow when I can find the time.


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## HiNtZ (7 Feb 2019)

Sorry I didn't get pics up - my van got broken in to and complicated a few things.

However, I have come to a conclusion that this is a K problem. Since the last water change and only adding 7ppm of K the plants get better and better each day, but if I dose K as KNO3 or K2SO4 or any other micro/ferro product with K in, things stop instantly.

No new shoots, no new root growth and old roots decaying, turning brown. Really veiny leaves on everything like a marbled effect (see pics). I read a lot of terrestrial plant literature that says high K there can block Fe Ca Zn which interested me as I was showing induced Ca issues in the sunset upward cupped leaf shape with pale yellow veiny look, almost chlorotic. I still don't know what caused the leaf edge roll though. I think it was stress from the induced deficiencies because it happened almost overnight and usually after a water change.

Cardamine is a good plant to watch in my tank. Its roots are suspended, it's not in the substrate too tough. In at least the last couple of days the leaf size and shape has improved dramatically and rather than the pale Mg deficient look (tortoise shell pattern) the leaves are greener and much more waxy looking. Almost shiny.

Ceratopteris is showing improvements as is repens and even, EVEN the dwarf baby tears!

The rest is looking promising too and I at least know now that higher N and adding Mg is not a problem. It's just the K that's the elephant in the room. It's in all the products I was using - Easylife Ferro, Profito and more obviously KNO3 and PO4. It just seems, for me in reconstituted, or any water under 10GH and I get these issues with EI amounts of K.

KH2PO4 has negligible amounts of K for what I dose it at so I'm going to be dosing next water change with no KHCO3 and will use MgNO3 for N and KH2PO4 for P and K. I want to see where the next two weeks goes with dosing K solely through KH2PO4.

Oh and the gluconate is in the dosing regime now in place of Easylife Ferro - I don't think it has any K?? Doesn't say on the label.


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## HiNtZ (9 Feb 2019)

08/2

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1dyGyt9h4aE0XHknsqdZmWj7J-4O_wNjP


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## HiNtZ (12 Mar 2019)

Ok so an update - I've been running with this for 2 weeks after literally dosing nothing at all since the last post.

Water has pretty much stayed the same, I mix up to these parameters now:

Ca  -  40 ppm
Mg  - 10 ppm
Cl    - 14 ppm
S    -  11.7 ppm

KH 5.2
GH 8

Macro (dosed daily before lights on)

NO3 --- 0.5ppm (as KNO3)

PO4 --- 0.1ppm (as KH2PO4)

K --- 0.34ppm (as KNO3)

Micro (dosed daily 4 hours after macro - APF trace)

B --- 0.01 ppm
Cu --- 0.0025 ppm
Fe --- 0.09 ppm
Mn --- 0.02 ppm
Mo --- 0.0015 ppm
Zn --- 0.0125 ppm

Week totals Macro:

NO3 --- 3.5 ppm
PO4 --- 0.7 ppm
K      --- 2.38 ppm

Week totals micro:

B --- 0.07 ppm
Cu --- 0.0175 ppm
Fe --- 0.63 ppm
Mn --- 0.14 ppm
Mo --- 0.01 ppm
Zn --- 0.09 ppm

I'll grab pics when I get a chance. Health is improving way more dramatically than I've seen with this lean dose.


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## HiNtZ (16 Mar 2019)

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1yJmS2CJhg8TJ1zUIoeMmm0sqraHoq7PP

So here is the tank today. Growth is slower but seems more dense and compact. Still showing issues on older growth.

Water change today, then I'm going to double up on macros this week and keep micro the same and bring the light closer 6".


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## HiNtZ (16 Mar 2019)

Forgot to mention that the Ni has been added. I made a 500ml solution:

200ml
201mg NiSO4
1ml dose in 150L = 0.0015ppm (1.5ug/l)

Hope that's right? Nothing has died, and I read that Ni is the least toxic of the metals, far less so than Cu.

I only added the single dose for the week. Going to break it down into my micro mix. That will require around 5.6mg and a decent set of scales...

Must say also, thank you to X3NiTH for sending me some NiSO4 and the advice/good conversation. Really appreciate it.


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## Soilwork (25 Aug 2021)

Hi All,

I haven’t read all of this thread but wanted to ask a question since it was touched on early in the discussion.

If.you add a lot of KHCO3 to your tank is it possible that you will cause calcium to go out of solution if it forms calcium carbonates?

cheers 
CJ


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## dw1305 (25 Aug 2021)

Hi all,


Soilwork said:


> ....... add a lot of KHCO3 to your tank is it possible that you will cause calcium to go out of solution if it forms calcium carbonates?
> ...


Yes it will.

Cheers Darrel


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## Soilwork (25 Aug 2021)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> Yes it will.
> 
> Cheers Darrel



Hi Darrel,

Thanks.  I have a hypothesis that I would like to share and here seems to be a good a place as any.  Feel free to move this to it’s own thread if deemed necessary.

I wanted to raise the dKH in my tank so I added 2tps of KHCO3 to my 85l tank.  According to rotala calculator this adds a whopping 50ppm K+, 78ppm HCO3 and raised the dKH by 3.8

Joe Gargas wrote a fantastic piece in an aquarium magazine some time ago on water chemistry with particular focus on TDS and osmoregulation.  I took a snippet from there that reads.

‘Some fish species can tolerate higher Conductivity, TDS and Osmotic Pressures than others in comparison to their natural habitat. What makes matters worse, though, is when aquarium salt and other additives are added to the aquarium ... not only does the conductivity increase but now the ions that were in balance in the natural water (tap water or water source) are completely out of balance.
To explain this better, ionic imbalance occurs when Chloride and or Sodium become the major cations or anions in water, then it becomes imbalanced and unnatural. If you look at just about all fresh waters, with very few exceptions it is calcium and or magnesium that are the major cations, and sulfate, alkalinity/bicarbonate/ car- bonate are the major anoins. Even in Lake Tan- ganyika, which is the biggest exception to the freshwater rule, the principle cation is magnesium and the major anion is bicarbonate/carbonate.
These ions, even though they are water soluble, are much less soluble than the chloride and sodium ions. All aquarium additives have one thing in common: included in their products are chloride and sodium. It is the chloride ion then the sodium ion that are taken in by the freshwater fish due to their water solubility. When these ions are so numerous and are the chief cations and an- ions in an aquarium, the freshwater fish is under much stress osmoregulating, thus spending much energy as chloride and sodium are being taken
up.
Freshwater fish are hyperosmotic, which
means that they have to maintain a higher concentration of salts in their body than the surrounding water. Then, if that fish is moved to waters with lower chloride and lower sodium and naturally a lower conductivit, it is stressed further as water naturally moves to the higher ionic concentration (4).
When I was with Wardley/Hartz, we analyzed competitors’ products as we were looking for a product to compete with other conditioners. We tested them by analyzing blood work on fish. After using specific products, we saw that after 72 hours, the Cortisol (Cortisol is an indicator of stress. It is found in the blood and it is released as a response to stress) levels started to increase rapidly. One of the most characteristic aspects of stress in fish is osmoregulatory disturbance, which is related to the effects of both catecholamine and cortisol hormones. The extent of the disturbance following stress depends upon the ionic and osmotic gradients (difference) between the internal fluids of the fish and its surrounding environment (water). If the stress is persistent and of sufficient intensity, changes in the cellular structure of the gills may occur under the influence of cortisol. In this situation, increased death and turnover rates of branchial epithelial cells leads to accelerated aging of the gills. These degenerating and newly formed gill cells do not function normally, which further limits the fish’s ability to maintain water and ion homeostasis under stressful conditions. Thus, acute stress limits the fish’s capacity to osmoregulate, and prolonged periods of extreme stress may result in osmotic shock and death. This is especially true if the chloride and sodium ions are present in such abundance that they become the major anions and cations in the water superseding calcium, magnesium as the cations and alkalinity/carbonate/bicarbonate and sulfates as the anions. Even though the conductivity will always increase in an enclosed environment, it is the chloride ion then the sodium ion that are usually the culprits. That is especially true if the chloride anion along with the sodium cation increase, to the point that they are now the most abundant of both the cations and anions’

Now my tap water and hence tank water has very little magnesium with Calcium, Chloride, Sodium and Sulphates all being very close to each other in terms of concentration.

I would often have problems with water changes hit or miss that would result in fish gasping at the surface or becoming twitchy and erratic in movement.  Often times I would lose fish the morning after a water change.  I blamed my conditioner as thoughts of overdosing become apparent.  I stopped changing water it got that bad opting for infrequent changes with rain water.

After a long time not changing water with tap the plants began to suffer so I began remineralising with dolomite powder and EI nutrients.  Things took off and I had a lush tank.

I got tired of the milky water that occurred after adding dolomite, though after a few hours it would disappear and the water clarity improved with plants clearly booming.

I decided to try KHCO3 as it would be much more soluble, raise my dKH the same amount and would not cloud the water.  So I put my 2tsps in.

The next morning I had 1 dead long standing Amano shrimp and over 100 Malaysian trumpet snails holed up in their shells lying on the sand.  Usually they would be all over.  The fish seemed ok at the time until I did a huge water change.  Then they all exhibited the same symptoms I’d seen time and time again only this time their slime coat came off.  I added some magnesium sulphate and within half an hour they were recovering.  I had also lost 2 of my 3 red cherry shrimp and couldn’t find the last two Amanos.  Lastly, every single crypt I  had melted.

I did enough water changes until the snails one by one started moving again.  Then just to be 100% sure it was the KHCO3 and not the water that was causing the issues with the snails I dosed 2tsp KHCO3 again.  I watched the snails close up again within 5 minutes.  The water changes were worse for the fish this time until I remineralised.

My mind went back to the Joe Gargas article.  What if adding all the KHCO3 had precipitated the calcium and other protective ions and resulted in osmoregulatory disturbances because thee highly sodium, potassium and chloride ions were now the most abundant ions in my very soft water and the fish were suffering an osmotic pressure shock of some kind? Something you would never normally see in most tap waters and most situations.  I also wondered if the sodium thiosulphate was exacerbating historic water change issues due to the very low concentration of calcium, magnesium, sulphate and carbonate ions in my tap water.

My other thought was that pH increase due to kH addition making underlying ammonium ions toxic free ammonia but this never happened when adding dolomite which raises the KH the same amount based on dosage albiet much more slowly.

I have done several large water changes since but now always ensure I have many other ions in solution from EI dosages magnesium sulphate addition and dolomite and haven’t experienced these issues since.  Crypts are slowly making a return.  

Any credibility to this?

thanks
CJ


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## Zeus. (25 Aug 2021)

Interesting 🧐.....

Why did you not add some dGH as most Reconstituters contain dGH or dGH and dKH. Adding some dGh would have increased the Ca,Mg, Cl and SO4 also, which may of countered the effect 
​


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## Soilwork (25 Aug 2021)

Zeus. said:


> Interesting 🧐.....
> 
> Why did you not add some dGH as most Reconstituters contain dGH or dGH and dKH. Adding some dGh would have increased the Ca,Mg, Cl and SO4 also, which may of countered the effect
> ​



afterwards I did add some magnesium sulphates and dolomite powder.  It seemed to work.  I do that from now on when water changing and haven’t had an issue since.


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## Soilwork (25 Aug 2021)

I also googled around afterwards and found this









						Potassium (bi)carbonate and inverts
					

I wanted to start a conversation on this because I haven't seen too much mentioned and I wanted to see if anyone else has had a similar experience to mine.  I switched to RODI water several months ago. I used a potassium bicarbonate product to raise my KH to ~3, yielding approximately 40 ppm K...




					www.plantedtank.net


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