# Just got back from TGM...



## Tom (18 Sep 2010)

... with this - apologies for the picture quality






Bit of a trek from Ipswich, but worth it I think. After braving the hard sales pitches, came away with my Mini M, Amazonia powder, Power Sand (scoop from a large bag), Forest Sand, Brighty K, Step 1 and 4DKH. I also picked up a few nice stones from the bank of the river in Llangollen - sshhhh! I'll also be using a couple of small pieces of wood I've been wanting to use for a while now. 

Now the tough part is having the patience to keep the other tank running, sort out those algae problems and grow it in before moving the equipment over to the M    .. or I could just do it now....  

Tom


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## nayr88 (18 Sep 2010)

me jealous .....NOOOOOOOOOOOOO   

haha very nice mate, im sure yourll do the kit justice aswell, i just bought a nice set up, and am going ada all the way, one item i dont know if i can justify is the co2 kit, its the same price as the TGM's own kit, but is much muccch smaller. if i do well ill be upgrading to a ADA mini with ADA light.

dont stop the other nano just yet, beat the algae get a decent tank shot then do the change over.

anyway nice buy pal


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## Tom (18 Sep 2010)

I saw the ADA CO2 kit today, and it's smaller than a coke can! I'll stick with my FE and UP Reg thanks 

Had a look at that ADA light too for the Mini M. I'd love one, they seem very well made but at Â£300 I'll give it a miss. I'm looking into making my own similar one using an 18w compact T5 - getting a sheet of metal cut for the base, and something like a chrome shower rail for the arm.

I need to wait to set it up anyway, as I've got half the plants growing out at the moment.


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## chump54 (18 Sep 2010)

oh man Â£300... wow. nice though.

nice shopping Tom. I went to TGM from Halesworth, near southwold. do I get a prize for travelling the furthest? if it could be one of those mini m lights that'll be great!


Chris


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## nayr88 (18 Sep 2010)

yeh it does look tiny the co2kit, if you was running a high tech tank surely it would last more that a month? the tgm kit is good value for money.

sounds like a good idea to make your own, im an electrician(in training) and ive come across some amazing lights(geek) on the current job we are on, just waiting till the end of the job to see if any are left. id chase the cables into the wall and make good after as im also a experienced plasterer  haha.

did you ge any photos of the shop?


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## Tom (18 Sep 2010)

Maybe a month on a Mini M, nothing bigger!

No I didn't get any pics, I didn't take the cameras into TGM. I shot a roll of medium format at Llangollen though, there's some great moss and rocks down by the river bank.


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## nayr88 (18 Sep 2010)

will you be sharing


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## Tom (18 Sep 2010)

Once they're developed! I'll have to send em off


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## Tom (19 Sep 2010)

Just been researching a couple of things I was told while at TGM... They said TPN+ had no K in it... is that right? I notice the DIY TPN+ formulations all use Potassium Nitrate/Sulphate/Phosphate. He was trying to tell me why I had to buy the ADA fert range from them so I don't get a K deficiency, as opposed to using the TPN/TPN+ range I have boxes of. Are they just trying to make a sale, or is there truth to this?

He was also giving me chat about how essential the Power Sand was, but I'm sure people have had great success without, no? I refused to buy a bag of it, but he decided to split a large bag of PS Special for me, which was 2/3 cheaper. I'm still skeptical. 

If I had followed all the "essential" advice I was offered, I would have walked out of there with about Â£500 of fertilizers alone (maybe slight exaggeration). When I asked about each one, I was told how essential each one was (Phyton Git, Clean Super, etc etc). I'm not really a fan of that sales tactic. 

Tom


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## dw1305 (19 Sep 2010)

Hi all,


> He was trying to tell me why I had to buy the ADA fert range from them so I don't get a K deficiency, as opposed to using the TPN/TPN+ range I have boxes of. Are they just trying to make a sale, or is there truth to this?


 My opinion is that it is all moonshine, it makes absolutely no difference to the plant, they can't read labels, for them a K+ ion is a K+ ion _ad infinitum_.

I would buy the cheapest KNO3 you can find, we only use Analar grades in the lab for making standards now, I don't even use them for making solutions up. Analar grade reagents are more expensive because they are incredibly pure (it is something like the equivalent of 1 grain of NaCl in a tonne of KNO3), it is really irrelevant to us, or the plant. 

cheers Darrel


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## Tom (19 Sep 2010)

It was more the claim that TPN+ had no K in that confused me. Surely it does? Maybe I'm wrong. 

I bought the ADA ferts anyway, because I can see the point that it makes sense to use their ferts with their substrate. I've used it before, it's easy and convenient, and it just works - just 1 squirt of each per day. I'm having far more issues with TPN+ in inert sand, but that's probably my own fault. The diatoms won't budge!


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## zig (19 Sep 2010)

Pretty sure JamesC has done the breakdown on the TPN+ if you search the forum Im sure you will find more info on it. Personally I have run tanks exclusively on TPN+ with no problems, George Farmer has as well AFAIK.


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## Tom (19 Sep 2010)

I looked on theplantedtank.co.uk and there were the recipes for those DIY TPN+ I mentioned, so presumably they are very similar and DO contain K. 

I know it's me not the TPN+ causing the problems, but I can't work it out!


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## Mark Evans (19 Sep 2010)

just go EI (light or heavy)and save yourself a ton of wonga!


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## Tom (19 Sep 2010)

I will do once my ADA has run out I think. I just love the convenience of the ADA though and I find it easier to get my head around. I might end up making some Trace and Potassium to use in the ADA bottles, at the same concentration if possible. That's assuming trace would be equivalent to Step1


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## Graeme Edwards (19 Sep 2010)

As far as ive ever been aware, and after talking to they bods at Tropica, I have been and have sold advice that says TPN has no K. N,P and trace, thats all. If you make your own up, then you can make it with K.

My slant on adding K, is that it stimulates photosynthesis, and that it is not a macro element, but more an essential element like Co2 is to plants. There is the argument that K is never really needed in an aquarium as our tap water usually has enough. I would be inclined to agree, but as adding it doesnt do any harm, I use brighty K. Once that runs out, ill look at making my own, purely because I can afford to buy it. Im still using my Tropica ferts I won from the aquascaping contest PFK ran, and I think you are too, if I remember right?

Im a bit suss about using to much TPN+. I tend to use 2/3 of TPN and 1/3 of TPN+. So, if I was dosing 4ml of Tropica ferts, I would dose 3ml of TPN and 1ml of TPN+ daily. 
I personally think you can over cook it just using TPN+ all of the time. Maybe you just use less of it, rather than greater amounts of TPN. Ive always aired on the side of caution when dosing TPN+.


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## Tom (19 Sep 2010)

Thanks for that Graeme. Interesting to see Tropica don't see the need for K, when ADA see it as essential enough to base their main fert system around - unless of course it's just another money-making scheme. I did wonder about mixing my TPN and TPN+, and now you've mentioned it I think I'll try. Might go half and half for the time being, and see how it goes. And yes it's still my PFK stuff! Got several TPN, TPN+ and root tabs left. 

Do you use Brighty K alongside TPN+ then?

Tom


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## Graeme Edwards (19 Sep 2010)

Yes, I use all 3. I wouldnt mix them, just dose them separately. 

For example. In my 30cm, I dont 2ml of brighty K, 3ml of TPN and 1ml of TPN+. I use old ADA bottle to give me accurate dosing amounts. 

When I first plant up, I only ever dose EasyCarbo and brighty K (and Co2) for the first couple of weeks, even the first month or so if using ADA soil. Then, I tease the TPN in, dosing half dosage, and then, when things are really moving along, I add TPN+, lean at first, at the 2/3 of TPN and 1/3 of the +. At some point, depending on plants and their growth, you may get to a 50-50 of TPN and the + or fully +. But my experience is, go easy on the +. I know some may disagree, but for what your planing, this would be my advice. I wonder if people get told to add to much fert and then complain of algae. 

Cheers.


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## Tom (19 Sep 2010)

I'm wondering if that might be my problem in the 10 liter - I have been dosing 0.6ml of TPN+ daily and can't budge the diatoms. I've built it up and up from 0.3ml TPN daily. Oddly, it was only 3 or so days after switching to TPN+ and slightly increasing the dose that the algae began to appear. I swapped to TPN+ because growth was very slow, and I associated this with lack of macros although there was no algae anywhere. Plants have now started to grow slightly quicker, but they're just dark brown in colour under the diatoms - as is the glass, rocks and sand! For an algae supposedly associated with new tanks and probably ammonia spikes, it's odd that it's still blooming strong as ever with good filtration and daily 50% water changes.


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## Graeme Edwards (19 Sep 2010)

I always use carbon and ammonia remover now when setting up. This helps a lot IMO. 

If I was you, I would dose 1ml of TPN and 1/2ml of TPN+ after your daily water changes. Or even give it 2ml and bin the TPN+ for now. Remember, you tap water will be high in N too, so adding more is probably not needed when doing daily water changes.

Get some green gain in there, it will pick up then.


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## dw1305 (20 Sep 2010)

Hi all, 





> My slant on adding K, is that it stimulates photosynthesis, and that it is not a macro element, but more an essential element like Co2 is to plants. There is the argument that K is never really needed in an aquarium as our tap water usually has enough.


 I'm not sure why Tropica don't add K (potassium), but plants need large amounts of it. If you are growing hydroponic Lettuce, Tomatoes etc. you need growing solutions with about 300 - 500ppm K, compared to 200 - 300 ppm N and about 35ppm P. On a dry matter basis plants are on average 2% - 3% K. Potassium is necessary for the synthesis of proteins, and in the osmotic regulation of stomatal opening, amongst other functions.

I also don't think tap water will contain large amounts of it, ours (Bath) certainly doesn't. There isn't a regulatory limit for the K content of  drinking water in the UK, so you would have to request the value from your water supplier. As a ball park figure rivers in the UK generally contains about 2-3 ppm potassium, and our tap water (from a limestone aquifer) less than 1ppm.  If you live in an area with a lot of granite, particularly if it is partially de-composed (China clay mining areas), or where the water quality is fairly iffy anyway (East Anglia, major conurbations) you might get a bit more in your water, but my suspicion would be that plant growth would be K limited in nearly all UK tap water.

cheers Darrel


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## Tom (20 Sep 2010)

I'll start dosing Brighty K then!


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## samc (20 Sep 2010)

just checked mine. there is 6ppm of K. but it says there is no standard.


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## JamesC (20 Sep 2010)

There is potassium (K) in both their TPN and TPN+ products. Here is the breakdown of TPN+ from the Tropica website.

N  	1.34%
P 	0.10%
K 	1.03%
Mg 	0.39%
S 	0.91%
B 	0.004%
Cu 	0.006%
Fe 	0.07%
Mn 	0.04%
Mo 	0.002%
Zn 	0.002%


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## JamesC (20 Sep 2010)

Tom said:
			
		

> I'll start dosing Brighty K then!


Remember that Brighty K also contains carbonate so will raise you alkalinity (KH)

James


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## Tom (20 Sep 2010)

I've also got crushed oyster shell in there, so it won't do too much!!! I swapped half over to ADA sand when I realized what it was (I didn't have a bag, and it didn't look like typical coral sand), but didn't want to disturb the plants too much once they had rooted. My pH and kH are HIGH!


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## ceg4048 (20 Sep 2010)

Graeme Edwards said:
			
		

> ...My slant on adding K, is that it stimulates photosynthesis, and that it is not a macro element, but more an essential element like Co2 is to plants. There is the argument that K is never really needed in an aquarium as our tap water usually has enough...


Graeme, K is a macronutrient, is omnipresent within the plant and id does a whole lot more than that. We covered this a couple of years ago in the thread Lack of Potassium?


			
				Graeme Edwards said:
			
		

> But my experience is, go easy on the +. I know some may disagree, but for what your planing, this would be my advice. I wonder if people get told to add to much fert and then complain of algae.


I add too much fert all the time and I don't get algae. So algae can't be due to adding too much fert. Although having said that, TPN+ derives much of it's N from Ammonium Nitrate.
Ammonium has been implicated as an algal trigger. Unsing non-ammonium containing ferts will avoid this possibility. In any case, if you look at the data you'll find that overwhelmingly, there are more cases of algae due to not adding enough ferts, or due to poor general husbandry. Poor flow, too much light, poor maintenance, overfeeding - theses are the causes of algae. This should be obvious by now.

Speaking of which...


			
				Tom said:
			
		

> For an algae supposedly associated with new tanks and probably ammonia spikes, it's odd that it's still blooming strong as ever with good filtration and daily 50% water changes.


This typically means you have too much light for the given conditions. None of your corrective actions will fix the problem unless you reduce the intensity because diatoms love CO2 and nutrients too. They are just not triggered by nutrients/CO2. Once triggered by excessive light and other poor conditions they are happy to live in your tank until evicted by low lighting.

Here is another obvious fact that no one seems to pay attention to: LIGHT triggers algae.
If excess nutrients cause algae, how come there's no algae in that highly concentrated nutrient bottle of yours? 

Cheers,


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## ghostsword (20 Sep 2010)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> If excess nutrients cause algae, how come there's no algae in that highly concentrated nutrient bottle of yours?



Why didn't I thought of that myself? ? 

I came back from holidays to see my tank with so much algae that I could put my hand inside and scoop it, I could scrape it from the fern leaves. 

The issue wasn't CO2 or Nutrients, but too much light and no water changes. 

Forward 3 weeks, a dark period of 3 days, then only 6 hours of light a day, with a complete clean out of pipes, Koralia and heater, the algae is gone. Still some patches of green spot algae, but with three times a week water changes of at least 60% each, I know that I will win the battle.

From posts, and from personal experience, the welcome committee for algae is not ferts or CO2, but light! Light is the one that give us the grief.

I have seen amazing tanks that take lots of ferts, with EI, and they look amazing, algae free and very healthy!


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## Mark Evans (20 Sep 2010)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Here is another obvious fact that no one seems to pay attention to: LIGHT triggers algae.



AMEn TO THAT!!!! i've said this for AGES! I also got slated for it by one or 2!

i'm glad you said this clive, now hopefully people will listen


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## andyh (20 Sep 2010)

Mark Evans said:
			
		

> ceg4048 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am with you on this too! Its so evident in so many tanks that people i have got a little over-keen with the lights and not got the balance of all the key parts right. Yes you can have strong lighting but start low and get the balance right then turn all (light+co2+nutrients etc) things up if you want to


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## NeilW (20 Sep 2010)

This may sound obvious to some but when we talk of having 'too much light' it took me a while to click that it actually means 'too much light _for the current conditions_'.  This subtle difference made me realise that there is no set rules on how little light is actually needed to trigger algae and be 'too much'.  For example normally the 9 watt T5 over 17 litres of water in my nano would be considered low lighting when conditions are optimal of both CO2 and nutrients, but due to lack of flow both of these elements were not delivered resulting in algae.  I have learnt that even small amounts of light can be 'too much light' if the other criteria of both CO2 and nutrients aren't met to match and doesn't necessarily mean I was trying to suspend a thousand megawatt metal halide over a puddle and wondering why it went green.  Where I wasn't fulfilling the 'balance' the light was 'too much'.  As I'm a bit thick and slow this made me scratch my head a lot until finally I was enlightened


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## Brenmuk (22 Sep 2010)

I must admit the hard sell tactics have put me off going to TGM somewhat. I would still pop in if I was in the area but perhaps now would not make a special trip. I would also be a bit dubious about any advice they give out if they are claiming that products like TPN/TPN+ do not contain K.


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## ghostsword (22 Sep 2010)

Brenmuk said:
			
		

> I must admit the hard sell tactics have put me off going to TGM somewhat. I would still pop in if I was in the area but perhaps now would not make a special trip. I would also be a bit dubious about any advice they give out if they are claiming that products like TPN/TPN+ do not contain K.



I have made a trip to TGM from London, a bunch of us did, it was 4 hours each way, and I found the staff very friendly and not salesmen at all. I stayed at the shop for about 4 or 5 hours, and was free to walk around, look at all the tanks, plants, wood, rocks and the first time someone came to talk to me was to ask if I wanted sugar or milk on my tea.  

I did buy a couple of things, but picked them up myself and just paid, no hard sell whatsoever.   

Will for sure do another trip, before the bad weather comes again.


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## Gfish (22 Sep 2010)

Well said, I've not visited TGM yet but my dealings on the phone have always been pleasurable.
I don't know how your conversation went with the staff there, but if you go in, like many tirekickers and make out you're up for purchasing and asking about products, then perhaps the impression was given that you were wanting to make a purchase. Forgive them for assuming this, if it was not the case.

If I'm ever accused of giving anyone a hard sell in my own retail environment it's usually a complete timewasters, not someone who wants to shop. 
Sales is a tough line to be in and make everyone happy.

I have no complaints of TGM and there's nothing worse than coming away and thinking, "I wish someone had given me the push and best advice to persuade me to purchase, instead of walking away empty handed. So that's another way to think about it.
There's a great saying, 'we don't regret the money we spend, we only regret the money we don't spend' 

Cheers


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## Tom (22 Sep 2010)

It's probably just the enthusiasm, which is definitely a good thing provided you're given the option of what to buy, rather than feeling channeled towards the most expensive ADA product (and I'm not doubting it's ability at all). Had a good chat with Jim over the phone when I got back, which was a nice touch. I would go again, but only when I don't fancy going through the online shop - it's a long way. I like the area too so would probably integrate the trip into a couple or three days away. It is nice having a cup of tea and a chat there though, and Graeme's square tank was looking fantastic if a little overgrown at the moment! Altums are lovely too. Some bits and pieces including some hardscape is unjustifiably expensive for me anyway, however generally comes through ADA I imagine, so... yeah.

Tom


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