# NaCl as source of micronutrient Chlorine?



## Djoko Sauza (10 Jan 2022)

Hi all. I'm using 100% remineralised RO water with CaSo4 and MgSo4. My fert mix doesn't contain any chlorine.

Since I'd rather not add any tap water, is adding a miniscule amount of NaCl (as kosher salt) a good idea? Say up to 2ppm Cl?

I know other chlorine compounds exist but that's one more expense I'd rather not have.

Cheers


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## Wookii (10 Jan 2022)

Chemistry is not my strong suit, but could you not use CaCl2 (Calcium Chloride) rather than CaSO4?


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## Djoko Sauza (10 Jan 2022)

Wookii said:


> Chemistry is not my strong suit, but could you not use CaCl2 (Calcium Chloride) rather than CaSO4?


That would be ideal but I'd rather not buy more powders and pay delivery etc when that's the only I need. Thinking about it, I have a lot of CaCl2 to use in those dehumidifier boxes but I have no idea how pure it would be?


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## MichaelJ (10 Jan 2022)

Djoko Sauza said:


> Hi all. I'm using 100% remineralised RO water with CaSo4 and MgSo4. My fert mix doesn't contain any chlorine.
> 
> Since I'd rather not add any tap water, is adding a miniscule amount of NaCl (as kosher salt) a good idea? Say up to 2ppm Cl?
> 
> ...


If your worried about lack of Chloride (you don't need much) just add a bit of KCl or some CaCl2 as @Wookii suggest - the CaCl2 will increase your GH though. I would go with KCl - Potassium Chloride.
Cheers,
Michael


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## plantnoobdude (10 Jan 2022)

hi, it is not advisable to use sodium chloride because sodium isn't the best for plants or fish, i use calcium chloride instead of sulphate and it works well, dissolves much faster too!
also, an important note, you want *chloride* in your tank not chlorine, chlorine is extremely toxic to fish and plants,


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## MichaelJ (10 Jan 2022)

if you target 2 ppm of Chloride you will get 1.25 ppm of Na  from NaCl - which shouldn't be a problem?  Others may want to chime in on that.  Natural amazonian water ways routinely contains between 1-5 ppm of Na.

Cheers,
Michael


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## Djoko Sauza (10 Jan 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> if you target 2 ppm of Chloride you will get 1.25 ppm of Na  from NaCl - which shouldn't be a problem?  Others may want to chime in on that.
> 
> Cheers,
> Michael


Yes, I guess the question here actually is "at what levels is Na problematic"?


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## MichaelJ (10 Jan 2022)

Djoko Sauza said:


> Yes, I guess the question here actually is "at what levels is Na problematic"?


1.25 ppm of Na shouldn't be - Natural Amazon river ways routinely contains 1-5 ppm of Na.

Also it's not unusual to have quite a few ppm's of Na in tap water... and people get along with that just fine - as long as its not anything extreme.


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## X3NiTH (10 Jan 2022)

Go to the Supermarket and buy ‘Low Sodium Salt’ or ‘No Sodium Salt’, the former is a blend of Potassium Chloride and Sodium Chloride the latter should be solely Potassium Chloride.


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## MichaelJ (10 Jan 2022)

X3NiTH said:


> Go to the Supermarket and buy ‘Low Sodium Salt’ or ‘No Sodium Salt’, the former is a blend of Potassium Chloride and Sodium Chloride the latter should be solely Potassium Chloride.


Brilliant!


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## Djoko Sauza (10 Jan 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> 1.25 ppm of Na shouldn't be - Natural Amazon river ways routinely contains 1-5 ppm of Na.


I guess adding NaCl would surprisingly be the perfect solution then?


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## Djoko Sauza (10 Jan 2022)

X3NiTH said:


> Go to the Supermarket and buy ‘Low Sodium Salt’ or ‘No Sodium Salt’, the former is a blend of Potassium Chloride and Sodium Chloride the latter should be solely Potassium Chloride.


I don't think this exists here in the Netherlands?


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## MichaelJ (10 Jan 2022)

Djoko Sauza said:


> I don't think this exists here in the Netherlands?


Try a search for No Sodium Salt made with Potassium Chloride on Amazon. Theres got to be something similar available in the Netherlands.


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## Djoko Sauza (10 Jan 2022)

@MichaelJ I'm adding NaCl, your paper about Amazonian river water parameters convinced me. I mean, even a blackwater river with 8 microsiemens EC has 0.4ppm Na so what could go wrong? Apart from me miscalculating and adding way too much salt of course...


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## Maf 2500 (10 Jan 2022)

I think you will be OK, 1.25 mg/l of Na is nothing - the legal limit for tapwater in the UK is 200 mg/l


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## MichaelJ (10 Jan 2022)

Djoko Sauza said:


> @MichaelJ I'm adding NaCl, your paper about Amazonian river water parameters convinced me. I mean, even a blackwater river with 8 microsiemens EC has 0.4ppm Na so what could go wrong? Apart from me miscalculating and adding way too much salt of course...


I personally wouldn't worry about it.  For instance, for a 100 liter tank you only need 0.33 grams. to reach 2 ppm of Chloride -  Thats a pinch or 1/16th of a 5 gram teaspoon - that is a tiny amount. 

Cheers,
Michael


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## Djoko Sauza (10 Jan 2022)

Maf 2500 said:


> I think you will be OK, 1.25 mg/l of Na is nothing - the legal limit for tapwater in the UK is 200 mg/l


Yes, of course, it makes sense. Since adding NaCl is never mentioned when talking about ferts I thought perhaps it wouldn't be an option for some obscure reason.


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## X3NiTH (10 Jan 2022)

Djoko Sauza said:


> I don't think this exists here in the Netherlands?



Absolutely Impossible because the Netherlands are ‘the’ European leaders at using low or no sodium salts in products, out of the whole of Europe the Netherlands accounts for 9% of the total used and it’s not exactly a massively populated country, you’re a healthy bunch!

Aldi does low sodium salt in their Simply Natural range apparently.


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## Djoko Sauza (10 Jan 2022)

X3NiTH said:


> you’re a healthy bunch!


To be honest I don't notice much of a difference between here and other countries, from my experience living here for 3 years now (what is in "frikandel" anyway??).
Perhaps in Holland&Barret (yes, we also have that!) I can find some KCl, I know for sure in my local supermarkets there's only lame NaCl.


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## MichaelJ (10 Jan 2022)

Djoko Sauza said:


> (what is in "frikandel" anyway??).


Ok, I am getting hungry now.


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## X3NiTH (10 Jan 2022)

Yeah try a Health Foods Shop, Holland&Barret should fit the bill!


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## Happi (15 Jan 2022)

@Djoko Sauza

plant truly use very little Na and Cl, 0.1-0.2 ppm Na and 0.5-1 ppm Cl is plenty during water changes. for RO water I recommend using CaCl to add little Ca and Cl along with your Caso4 and MgSo4. 

we use to use Calcium Chloride, Calcium Gluconate, Magnesium Chloride, Magnesium Gluconate. this was similar attempt to clone the "Aqua Vitro Mineralize" back then. but we took out the Ca and Mg Gluconate because we were only able to dissolve very little, wasn't worth it. but you can use the Ca and Mg chloride in a stock solution for your water changes due to its high solubility. 

your best bet is to use these in conjunction and directly added to the water: Caso4, MgSo4, Calcium Chloride, Calcium Gluconate, Magnesium Chloride, Magnesium Gluconate in combination would be best idea. and you can use NaHCO₃ and KHCO3 to add Na, K to your water.


need help breaking this down
aquavitro - mineralize


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## MichaelJ (15 Jan 2022)

Happi said:


> @Djoko Sauza
> 
> plant truly use very little Na and Cl, 0.1-0.2 ppm Na and 0.5-1 ppm Cl is plenty during water changes. for RO water I recommend using CaCl to add little Ca and Cl along with your Caso4 and MgSo4.
> 
> ...


Hi @Happi I am using MgSO4, CaSO4, Mg(NO3)2, KH2PO4 and just started K2CO3 to get that tiny bit of CO3 (~1.4 KH) and what I need for K.... I am thinking about targeting about 1 ppm/wk of Na and 1.5 ppm/wk of Cl. or half of that... (0.5 ppm Na / 0.75 ppm Cl) with NaCl... I believe that should be good. Thoughts?

Cheers,
Michael


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## Happi (15 Jan 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> Hi @Happi I am using MgSO4, CaSO4, Mg(NO3)2, KH2PO4 and just started K2CO3 to get that tiny bit of CO3 (~1.4 KH) and what I need for K.... I am thinking about targeting about 1 ppm/wk of Na and 1.5 ppm/wk of Cl. or half of that... (0.5 ppm Na / 0.75 ppm Cl) with NaCl... I believe that should be good. Thoughts?
> 
> Cheers,
> Michael


I don't see any issue with this. but, I strongly recommend using KHCO3 over K2CO3 especially if you like to dose higher amount of K. I once tested whatever this thread is talking about: Problems with possible KHCO3 toxicity
I too encountered the same issue as Kekon, am not a believer of PH swings killing fishes but most likely the issue He/You could encounter could be NH3/NH4 switching and causing some issue when K2CO3 is used. I used KHCO3 at 3 ppm daily like ADA does in the past and nothing bad happened. K2CO3 have a PH of 11.5 vs KHCO3 PH of 8.2


aquavitro - carbonate


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## MichaelJ (16 Jan 2022)

Happi said:


> I don't see any issue with this. but, I strongly recommend using KHCO3 over K2CO3 especially if you like to dose higher amount of K. I once tested whatever this thread is talking about: Problems with possible KHCO3 toxicity
> I too encountered the same issue as Kekon, am not a believer of PH swings killing fishes but most likely the issue He/You could encounter could be NH3/NH4 switching and causing some issue when K2CO3 is used. I used KHCO3 at 3 ppm daily like ADA does in the past and nothing bad happened. K2CO3 have a PH of 11.5 vs KHCO3 PH of 8.2


Hi @Happi, Thanks for your reply.
Coincidently I did some investigation into the K2CO3 usage. It is indeed a _very_ potent base in pure RO water. What I realized though is for my low target of ~1.5 KH and ~20 ppm of K that I target my WC water at, I _should _be good especially as my WC water is mixed with all my other minerals and salts (Ca and Mg in particular) the pH should be much more stable.  Your right about KHCO3 - lower pH and I would get the same amount of K from an equal KH with KHCO3 with the benefit of a lower initial pH. The downside is that I get an initial higher TDS with KHCO3 (36 ppm with K2CO3 vs. 54 ppm with KHCO3) which is a bit of a bummer as I am chasing low(er) TDS as mentioned.

Cheers,
Michael


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## X3NiTH (16 Jan 2022)

If you really want to chase low TDS then supplement remineralisation with CaCO3 and MgCO3 for the Carbonates, they will fully dissolve to bring water to 8GH and 8KH if needed (these levels I targeted were to simulate Karst water), it’ll take at least a week if dry dosed to stop looking like it snowed in the tank though. You can speed things up significantly if you semi convert these into bicarbonates by dosing into very cold refrigerated CO2 saturated water (I used a Sodastream machine to get CO2 saturated water), 900ml of CO2 soda strength saturated water into 26L of RO ends up at about 30ppm CO2 in the Jerry can so you can waterchange mid injection cycle. When it comes to purity of water Chlorides and Sulphates can be seen as hallmarks for pollution and reducing their amount overall isn’t a bad thing when chasing low TDS.


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## Happi (16 Jan 2022)

this is what Marcel Shared with me at some point similar to what X3NiTH is talking about

*CaCO3: In this recipe you have to use CaCO3 for adding Ca++ and CO3--. The problem is that CaCO3 is very hard to dissolve. There is one relatively easy way how to dissolve it, but you need the SodaStream for it. The best way is to add no more than 0.5 to 0.6 grams into 900 ml of distilled water, and pump CO2 into it using the SodaStream. For this amount of CaCO3 to fully dissolve you have to leave it in the bottle for 2 to 3 days (occasionally shaking it)! After all the powder dissolves, you need to get rid of the excess CO2 in the bottle. The best way is to put an air stone inside it, and buttle an air thought it for about 5 to 10 minutes (but you need to watch the pH of the water, it is best to keep it about a neutral pH = 7). Never ever add the soda water directly into your tank, because the concentration of CO2 inside it may exceed 4,000 ppm!!! That's the reason why you need to aerate it first using an air stone (to get rid of the excess CO2). If you don't have SodaStream at hand, you can add the CaCO3 directly into your tank, but be prepared that it may take some time for it to dissolve (also you need to supply CO2 into your tank for it to dissolve, so in tanks without CO2 the CaCO3 won't probably dissolve).


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## MichaelJ (16 Jan 2022)

X3NiTH said:


> If you really want to chase low TDS then supplement remineralisation with CaCO3 and MgCO3 for the Carbonates,


Hi @X3NiTH   So currently I am targeting 30ppm of Ca with CaSO4 that gives me 24 ppm of S. If I would target the same amount of Ca with CaCO3 I would end up with 45 ppm of CO3.  A net difference of 21 ppm in favor of CaSO4, so I am not sure how that would work in my favor overall (I am not a chemist btw.)?



X3NiTH said:


> they will fully dissolve to bring water to 8GH and 8KH if needed (these levels I targeted were to simulate Karst water), it’ll take at least a week if dry dosed to stop looking like it snowed in the tank though.


Yes, thats another issue. Remember I was experimenting with Ca Gluconate and Mg Gluconate  and it made my water look like someone had poured a gallon of whole milk into the tank overnight 

EDIT: However, I never really took it to the test to see if I could compromise between the Ca Gluconate and CaSO4 - i.e. doing half-and-half. Get 15 ppm from each compound without the negative side effect. That might be worth trying.



X3NiTH said:


> You can speed things up significantly if you semi convert these into bicarbonates by dosing into very cold refrigerated CO2 saturated water (I used a Sodastream machine to get CO2 saturated water), 900ml of CO2 soda strength saturated water into 26L of RO ends up at about 30ppm CO2 in the Jerry can so you can waterchange mid injection cycle.


I don't inject CO2 but we do have a Sodastream machine in our household, but this might be a bit too elaborate for my maintenance routine 



X3NiTH said:


> When it comes to purity of water Chlorides and Sulphates can be seen as hallmarks for pollution and reducing their amount overall isn’t a bad thing when chasing low TDS.


Yes! What bugs me is all the SO4 I am adding... If I could get rid of (minimize) that from my Ca and Mg dosing I would be a pretty happy camper - as that would get me down to the 130 ppm TDS range while maintaining my relatively high N/NO3,P/PO4,K,Ca,Mg levels  (I already tweaked those down quite a bit btw.).

Cheers,
Michael


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## Happi (16 Jan 2022)

I added like 1 spoon of Caco3 into my RO water in a aquarium that didn't have any substrate and it never truly dissolved and I waited for few weeks, the ph was around 6. calcium acetate is another option, you can probably react CaCO3, MgCO3 with vinegar to achieve this.


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