# Overflow / Spray bar / Powerheads positioning



## Filip Krupa (29 May 2018)

Tank dimensions: 1700x1700x750mm

Plan is: the overflow, spray bars, and powerheads all on one wall. So that the sequence from the top of the wall is: overflow (800mm long and offset to one side), below that powerheads (3), below that spray bars (2 x 1500mm long). Powerheads and spray bars pointed towards the surface.

Without getting into the details of how strong the return pumps/powerheads are, will this setup work relatively well in principle?
My biggest worry is the % of the CO2 rich water from the spray bars, landing straight in the overflow.

Any comments appreciated!

Fil


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## Andrew Butler (29 May 2018)

Just my opinion..........

Why bother with the spraybars? This goes against everything I normally think but with a tank that big I'm not so sure a spraybar is your best answer and maybe simply relying on some well placed powerheads could work better.

I guess you could argue that doing away with a spraybar is just wasting flow but if you are to look at a reef aquarium then returns from a sump tend to just be an angled nozzle under the waterline and distribution of flow is primarily down to powerheads.
More so I also think a spraybar is more useful when used to create flow in a tank and just think that 1700 is a bit far for it to work and create a cycle.



Filip Krupa said:


> Powerheads and spray bars pointed towards the surface.


Any reason for this given the water will get oxygenated as it falls into the sump?

If you decide to go down the spraybar route any reason for 2? I assume you mean on top of each other if they are both 1500.

Powerheads can be moved all around the tank; changed direction, you can add more, take them away, increase/decrease power - there's different types for different jobs so possibilities are almost endless.
Have you a layout planned for the aquarium?

As I say just my opinion and thinking aloud!
Andrew


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## Edvet (29 May 2018)

Spraybars can work but you will need powerfull pumps, to get the circular flow. I would experiment with 32mm pvc pipes and bore holes in that.
I would aim the CO2 rich water slightly downward, you will want to get the circular flow. If possible start with a bare tank to ascertain it better ( even with some food dye).
The volume you will have to  pump around will be greater then the overflow volume to the sump


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## Filip Krupa (29 May 2018)

Food dye! Didnt think of that Edvet.

The 2 spray bars are to service 2 return pumps. The way I see it, the spray bars are there to mainly spread the co2 rich water evenly.
Its the powerheads that will provide most of the flow.

Ive a layout in mind. Nothing concrete yet,
But as you can see, plenty of space to work with


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## Edvet (29 May 2018)

Looking good! 
Just use your time to get everything dialed in perfectly, it will pay back. Take in consideration hardware and (hopefully lush) plantgrowth will block flow, so you will rarely have enough. The bean looks super
1)I would advise you to put some easily exchangeable foamblocks in the overflow to reduce 1) the amount of muck in your sump and 2) avoid fish getting in the sump, Just change them every week or so
2) realize it will be tough to reach everywhere to maintain the plants intensively (  been there, have the problem) so plan wisely


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## foxfish (29 May 2018)

That is an amazing tank 
I think the way you scape the tank will influence the best flow arrangement, an island scape might be an option.


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## Filip Krupa (29 May 2018)

foxfish said:


> That is an amazing tank
> I think the way you scape the tank will influence the best flow arrangement, an island scape might be an option.



Thanks m8
There is a video by the greenmachine on yt where they scaped a tank nearly the same dimensions as mine (theirs was a little smaller ). Sponteneity they called it.
I like the look of that scape. If I can manage half the effect they did, I can die happy.

Not sure about about an island layout. I would like to show off how deep this thing is by leaving as much space open in the middle as possible. With some hardscape roughly in 3 corners, with the 4th corner clear as the main viewing angle. Again, similar to the greenmachines scape.
Also, my aquascaping skills are a bit lacking, and an island layout feels like advanced stuff! Would probably look amazing though...


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## doylecolmdoyle (30 May 2018)

What a monster of a tank, I just watched TGM video you referred to - https://www.thegreenmachineonline.c...step-spontaneity-james-findley-green-machine/

Do you have a journal for this tank yet? Keen to follow along!


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## rebel (30 May 2018)

That is indeed a dream tank!!

Are you going to snorkel to clean it? [ Serious question ]


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## Zeus. (30 May 2018)

rebel said:


> That is indeed a dream tank!!
> 
> Are you going to snorkel to clean it? [ Serious question ]



Think he might need O2 tank too


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## Andrew Butler (30 May 2018)

Edvet said:


> I would advise you to put some easily exchangeable foamblocks in the overflow


Have you not come across filter socks before Ed? - Surely the teeth of the weir would stop fish casualties?



Edvet said:


> circular flow


That was the descriptor I was looking for but wouldn't come to mind!



Edvet said:


> Spraybars can work but you will need powerfull pumps


I think the question here is can your weir keep up with this amount of flow?
If you've looked you will know there's countless options on how to rig it up with the 3 pipes.



Filip Krupa said:


> The 2 spray bars are to service 2 return pumps. The way I see it, the spray bars are there to mainly spread the co2 rich water evenly.
> Its the powerheads that will provide most of the flow.


Isn't this kind of the same thing Filip?

I agree 100% with foxfish and suggested before that the arrangement will largely dictate flow required.

However I do still question if a spraybar is the right option and maybe you would be better off looking at the normal returns on an elbow under the waterline and if you do find a spraybar would be the best option then not a problem as @Zeus will tell you the Maxsepct Gyre is a powerhead which acts like a spraybar only you can adjust the power, angle, height, direction etc with ease and think this could be your best option if you go for a layout that wants a circular flow as Ed perfectly describes it.


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## Filip Krupa (30 May 2018)

rebel said:


> Are you going to snorkel to clean it? [ Serious question ]



Im planning to use diving goggles + holding my breath if I must (seriously)

I believe Edvet's got some experience doing that


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## Filip Krupa (30 May 2018)

Andrew Butler said:


> I think the question here is can your weir keep up with this amount of flow?



According to an online calculator, my weir should handle 10 litres of water per second. 
Which is aprox 18x my tank volume per hour. 
I would think thats plenty!


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## Filip Krupa (30 May 2018)

doylecolmdoyle said:


> Do you have a journal for this tank yet? Keen to follow along!



Not yet, but planning one!


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## rebel (30 May 2018)

Filip Krupa said:


> Im planning to use diving goggles + holding my breath if I must (seriously)
> 
> I believe Edvet's got some experience doing that


Shikes. Yeah I cant think of other ways to have the finesse that will be required . Strategic planting will alleviate it. 

Also look in to that robotic glass cleaner....


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## Edvet (31 May 2018)

Filip Krupa said:


> According to an online calculator, my weir should handle 10 litres of water per second.
> Which is aprox 18x my tank volume per hour.
> I would think thats plenty!


I wouldn't set it up like that. I would do a separate setup for the CO2, with the spray bars and the heavy pumps, and have another for the overflow and sump wich handles maybe 1 or 2 tankvolumes per hour. I would think it would work better : not a huge volume through the sump, slower flow is better; and a separe setup to get flow optimal for CO2


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## Filip Krupa (31 May 2018)

Edvet said:


> I wouldn't set it up like that. I would do a separate setup for the CO2, with the spray bars and the heavy pumps, and have another for the overflow and sump wich handles maybe 1 or 2 tankvolumes per hour. I would think it would work better : not a huge volume through the sump, slower flow is better; and a separe setup to get flow optimal for CO2



The numbers quoted are maximum values. My actual flow will be much lower, aprox 2.5 litres per second.
Nevertheless, Ive two pumps connected to the sump. Need be, I can always dedicate one for the co2, as you suggest.


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## Edvet (31 May 2018)

For CO2 tanks the "rule of thumb"is get about 10 times the volume of the tank in pump/filtercapacity ( this keeps overly enthousiastic manufacturer claims about pumpvolumes in mind)
But the best thing is : figure it out in detail while the tank is "empty".


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## rebel (31 May 2018)

Does anyone know whether the 10 times rule scales up like this? Does the ratio change with very large tanks?


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## Edvet (31 May 2018)

The ten times rules is made to get optimal circulation in the tank. This has to be done in any CO2 tank ( to distribute CO2 to all parts of the tank, and to remove all waste metabolites the plants excrete). It will be harder in large tanks. With very good circulation i guess you could get away with far less then 10 times, but when ten times is adviced we err to the safe side. Sadly most often when there are problems ( plants don't lie or read manufacturers brochures) in CO2 enriched tanks CO2 levels and distribution are 99% of the times at fault.
In very large tanks ( believe me i know) the problems scale up with the size. I used two very large powerheads in my large tank ta get a decent distribution and never got it to my liking, if i haed to do it again i would make a supersized spraybar ( 32 mm pvc) with matching pump and flow


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## Zeus. (31 May 2018)

From my reading the bigger the tank the flow/distribution of CO2 gets harder as Edvet says. Edvet does have the experience with monster tanks so well worth listening too esp CO2 IMO


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## ceg4048 (31 May 2018)

Andrew Butler said:


> Just my opinion..........
> 
> Why bother with the spraybars? This goes against everything I normally think but with a tank that big I'm not so sure a spraybar is your best answer and maybe simply relying on some well placed powerheads could work better.


Spraybars are among the best answers but they are not always used because they are ugly and are very difficult to implement correctly on a large scale.



Andrew Butler said:


> I guess you could argue that doing away with a spraybar is just wasting flow but if you are to look at a reef aquarium then returns from a sump tend to just be an angled nozzle under the waterline and distribution of flow is primarily down to powerheads.
> More so I also think a spraybar is more useful when used to create flow in a tank and just think that 1700 is a bit far for it to work and create a cycle.


 Reef tanks have little in common with planted tanks in this regard. Freshwater leaves require a certain flow rate and direction across the surface of the leaves in order for the boundary layer thickness to be reduced sufficiently to maximize the movement of the gasses across the boundary layer.



Andrew Butler said:


> Any reason for this given the water will get oxygenated as it falls into the sump?


Water that falls and crashes onto water or onto other surfaces immediately evaporates the CO2. For this reason, it is better to avoid falling water and instead to have a full siphon from the tank and to extend the tube in the sump so that the end of the siphon tube is just below the surface of the water. Crashing over baffles and other obstructions should also be minimized to reduce off-gassing of the CO2.



rebel said:


> Does anyone know whether the 10 times rule scales up like this? Does the ratio change with very large tanks?


As Edvert mentions, our 10X rule was meant to neutralize the effect of  manufactures who provide inflated flow ratings.
To achieve the boundary layer management I mentioned, plants really only need about 3X-5X the tank volume per hour in a CO2 tank. We find however, that in typical installations the filters only deliver about 40%-50% of their rated flow, so the 10X rule is a "fudge factor" to ensure that the filters will deliver the necessary flow. So this is regardless of tank size and if anything, is more important in large tanks. Whether this is achieved by filter alone or by combination of filters and pumps doesn't really matter.

Cheers,


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## foxfish (31 May 2018)

Personally, I never push high flows over the weir due to C02 loss, I would rather recirculate the water Column and push 3 x the volume over the weir.
A relitivily small trickle tower will do the bio filtration.... lots of options and many ways to skin a cat!


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## Zeus. (31 May 2018)

Planning on getting two Maxpect Gyres myself to get good flow in my 500l tank, my tank is flow limited ATM IMO the claimed 6500lph just isnt cutting it of my Fluval FX6 and eheim 3000+, any increase in the light just leads to melting leaves, any increase in plant biomass leads less flow which leads to melting leaves.My CO2 is maxed out with DC light yellow to clear and one 6.5Kg cylinder of CO2 lasts about a month.So need better flow/distrubution to get the CO2 to the plants quicker and to all areas of the tank. 

The gyre is very controllable and not expensive compared to the 12v controllable powerheads on the market. Plus no pipework £££ and minimal size footprint in tank easy to clean,adjust flow, change position NO pipes to clean !!!!

Well worth at look at for your monster tank IMO. Then like Foxfish suggests you can have a low flow going though your filter so less CO2 loss and the Gyres can take care of the flow/turnover. They do have a new model coming out in sept which is replacing the XF230, same size but quieter then the current model, which is the one I'm after. The XF250 is suppose to be quiet, couple of XF250 would do the turnover easy


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## Andrew Butler (1 Jun 2018)

ceg4048 said:


> Spraybars are among the best answer


I completely agree with you Clive and haven't looked back since you advised me to give them a go, I just think the size and flow rate needed for an aquarium this size would be quite something.
If a product like the Maxspect Gyre exists and gives you full control then why not utilise it?
They 'suck' as well as 'blow', you can adjust angle, power, direction, height.



Zeus. said:


> Well worth at look at for your monster tank IMO. Then like Foxfish suggests you can have a low flow going though your filter so less CO2 loss and the Gyres can take care of the flow/turnover.


Agree 100% - but this is just my opinion.


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## Edvet (1 Jun 2018)

Andrew Butler said:


> f a product like the Maxspect Gyre exists and gives you full control then why not utilise it?
> They 'suck' as well as 'blow', you can adjust angle, power, direction, height.


This might give you the flow you want, but I would build a huge CO2 reactor anyways to get enough CO2 dissolved, and this will need a large pump anyway, and distributing that through a large tank will be easiest with a spray bar, you might add the Gyre, or even need it to get the distribution correct.


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## Andrew Butler (1 Jun 2018)

Edvet said:


> I would build a huge CO2 reactor anyways


I believe Filip has a couple of big CO2 reactors to go with his two return pumps that will dissolve the amount of CO2 he was talking about before.
Surely if that CO2 enriched water is delivered to the tank it is then just a case of having it distributed evenly?


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## Edvet (1 Jun 2018)

Andrew Butler said:


> distributed evenly


Agreed.
(i just believe delivering it over the full length of the tank will ease the distribution, we are talking about 2100 liters)


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## Edvet (1 Jun 2018)

I used a 10.000 and 12000 liter Korallia in my 1500 liter and wasn't happy. If i could have gotten a Gyre i would've probably tried that


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## Filip Krupa (1 Jun 2018)

ceg4048 said:


> Spraybars are among the best answers [...]
> 
> Water that falls and crashes onto water or onto other surfaces immediately evaporates the CO2. For this reason, it is better to avoid falling water and instead to have a full siphon from the tank and to extend the tube in the sump so that the end of the siphon tube is just below the surface of the water. Crashing over baffles and other obstructions should also be minimized to reduce off-gassing of the CO2.
> 
> Cheers,



I've been lurking around forums for a while, and took note of the need for a full syphon, and advantages of spraybars for CO2 distribution. Most likely from your old posts! (cheers!)
For this reason, I'm building a 3 pipe, bean-animal style overflow system, and 2 spraybars (not bothered about the looks).
I will have a 6500L/h pump connected to one, and a 10,000L/h to the other (both Jebao/Jecod AC). Each pump will push the water through a separate large CO2 reactor.
Hopefully, the flow will be slowed down enough (by height, and CO2 reactors), so that I won't have 16,500L/h going through my sump. Hopefully half that or less. I can always turn it down anyway.

The circulation around the tank itself will be managed with powerheads, I've 3 x 12,000 L/h cheapo ones, will upgrade need be.

Can't wait to start testing, perhaps this weekend.


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## Edvet (1 Jun 2018)

Filip Krupa said:


> testing


Good luck and have fun


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## Filip Krupa (1 Jun 2018)

Edvet said:


> Good luck and have fun



Thanks,
I intend to, the first thing that will go in after I half fill it with warm water, is my kids!


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## Edvet (1 Jun 2018)

Oh and if everything looks OK, put some large flow disrupting items in the tank ( mimicing the layout you have in mind) and see how that works out


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## Edvet (1 Jun 2018)

Filip Krupa said:


> first thing that will go in after I half fill it with warm water, is my kids


Priceless, Pics for the family album


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## Filip Krupa (1 Jun 2018)

Edvet said:


> Oh and if everything looks OK, put some large flow disrupting items in the tank ( mimicing the layout you have in mind) and see how that works out



Oh that's a thought...
I've some food grade glitter I could put in, to see the flow around obstacles. Too much mess? Food colouring enough? (got that too!)

Now, if only I can teach my 5 year old to hold her breath, and sit on the bottom of the tank for 2 minutes...


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## Edvet (1 Jun 2018)

Filip Krupa said:


> food grade glitter


video's please


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## AverageWhiteBloke (1 Jun 2018)

Filip Krupa said:


> I've some food grade glitter I could put in, to see the flow around obstacles. Too much mess? Food colouring enough? (got that too!)



Problem is with checking flow in a tank that's just hardscape is the plants are going to change everything and it's a dynamic situation. As it grows in you may find the flow setup you had no longer fits the current condition of the tank and may need a little tweaking. Rather than food dyes etc maybe you could use some blackwater extract like tetra or something that stains the water brown a little, put a few drops in and see where it goes then adjust pumps and outlets to suite. You could also knock up some of your own using oak or almond leaves and leave them soaking in a bucket until the water is brown. I think someone also mentioned that you could use a certain type of tea. At least that way what you are putting in an already running tanks is actually of some use to the tank with dual purpose.

Thinking about it the doctor medic o2 creators are quite good in this situation, just get the el cheapo one from hinterfield. Doesn't need to be on the whole time but the mist it creates is very buoyant and hangs in the column for some time, they are actually quite good at seeing how your water is flowing around the tank and with the benefit of some pure o2.


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## Filip Krupa (1 Jun 2018)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Thinking about it the doctor medic o2 creators are quite good in this situation, just get the el cheapo one from hinterfield. Doesn't need to be on the whole time but the mist it creates is very buoyant and hangs in the column for some time, they are actually quite good at seeing how your water is flowing around the tank and with the benefit of some pure o2.



Like it!
This should be a fun weekend.

Fil


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## Gill (2 Jun 2018)

really stunning tank, miss having a tank of such volume aswell.Have you seen these from Jebao, would have bought these for mine.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JEBAO-JECOD-CROSS-FLOW-CP25-CP40-CP55-WAVE-MAKER-PUMP-AQUARIUM-4714-HC/222803691906?_trkparms=aid=555018&algo=PL.SIM&ao=2&asc=49130&meid=b66b1125762a444d8e874fb0ec40f75e&pid=100005&rk=4&rkt=12&sd=322846597134&itm=222803691906&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851


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## Andrew Butler (2 Jun 2018)

Gill said:


> Have you seen these from Jebao


I brought some of these to try instead of the Maxspect before I got a spraybar in my planted tank and they really are awful, very noisy and just feel cheap.
Stick with the Maxspect if you go down that route is my opinion.


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## Zeus. (2 Jun 2018)

Maidenhead aquatics do sell the Glamorca GP03 which is the licensed copy of the maxsept gyre they only do the one size which is the same size as the Maxspect Gyre XF250 and the controler only runs one pump. Plus I couldn't find any spares for the Glamorca GP03 either unlike the Maxspect, plus the Warrenty of the maxspect gyre can be extended 12months if your register at maxspect


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## Filip Krupa (3 Jun 2018)

I'd have to get the XF280 (for 1" thick walls) probably 2
Thats some serious $$$

In the meantime, flowtesting in progress...


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## Zeus. (3 Jun 2018)

*MAXSPECT GYRE PUMP REINFORCED MAGNET KIT £45*


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## Filip Krupa (3 Jun 2018)

Zeus. said:


> *MAXSPECT GYRE PUMP REINFORCED MAGNET KIT £45*



SWEET


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## Filip Krupa (4 Jun 2018)

Hi All.

The only solid conclusions after a weekend of testing are as follows:

- the beananimal style overflow is amazing, handles ridiculous amounts of flow completely silently (3 x 40mm pipes)

- as some of you suspected, the 16500 l/h flow is too much for my sump to handle, will be redesigning the return plumbing to use my pumps in line (instead of parallel), so that 1 can service the co2 reactors exclusively. Btw, thank blahblahblahblah Ive my sump overflowing into my house waste, full flow testing felt like driving a car 100 mph on a busy mexican road


Thanks
Filip


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## Edvet (4 Jun 2018)

Maybe even get a 2000 lit one for the sump and use the others for the CO2


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