# London based, sump systemised tanks.



## hotashes (19 Jan 2018)

Hi everyone, as I've been trawling through becoming intrigued as well as congested with info along the way I guess it's time to begin.

I've got my tanks set up and been running 3 years with fish and the odd plant. I'm awaiting my CO2 regulator so I can get on and install, (once I've worked out the best method that is suitable for my set up.  

This is where I'm sure I can start to learn with others helpful input as to where I start and how I go about the process.  I'm happy to look at YouTube vids or write ups, however any info which is good advice will help me.

Currently I've ordered the pro se elite regulator package from CO2Art, await delivery.  I've ordered an additional manifold also, (why I don't know).  I'm opting for 5kg fire extinguishers (just out of date), however other forum members from TFFuk are using them with no problems so far.  

As my return is hard plumbed I've got bits and pieces in my package from CO2Art which I will need to find the best use as it won't be a standard inline install etc.  My understanding so far will be to either opt for a reactor, or just place the diffuser next to the return pump intake....  I'm sure everyone understands, thanks for sticking with me.  This is as far as I've learnt, opinions welcome!!!!

I'm looking at my options of flow meter as although the kit has a decent bubble counter/needle valve manifold, I've picked up flow meters may be better as I've got a bigger sizes tank...  So yes with a bubble counter I won't be able to count if the bubbles will be streaming fast......

On this tank I use the apex Neptune controller so maybe gathering CO2 reading may be an option?  Input welcomed...

The tank I will be setting up on is 5' Aqua Oak with sump system, hard plumbed herbie overflow.  The return is hard plumbed and flows back into the tank via each end having an outlet so water spread is variable.  The substrate is split via corrugated plastic with sand stand alone at the front and at the back is tetra complete substrata topped with gravel.  (Tank is set up, just adding plants and CO2)

Feel free to jump in on hints and tips regarding emerged and submerged plant info, as I'm aware LFS sell non aquatic plants too........
I will even be happy to salvage and propagate my own plant culture, as I've seen is a good idea using propagator method *grin*

Below you will find some previous pictures of my efforts till now.  It's been a challenge keeping plants but now it's time to go hard or go home 

So basically fire away people and enjoy what may be a worth while hello.

Thanks, Ash.


























Aqua oak tanks 4'x2'x2' & 5'x2'x2' both freshwater set up on apex Neptune systems.  
Mortgage & Protection Adviser Full Time,
Peace


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## hotashes (21 Jan 2018)

Question time - Can anybody please advise/link on getting my pressurised CO2 into my water column via my sump.  So far I gather a basic shelf reactor will not withstand having to produce enough diffusion for my 575L/152 US gallon tank!! So looking at the DIY route I've crossed the cerges reactor method, another involving a ball gate and hard plumbing in a 'U' bend shape forcing the water through the bend where CO2 insertion is.  I like these ideas as they seem to dissolve 100% CO2......  However the renowned version of 'furr-ing up my impeller on return pump or simply placing the stock diffuser in the CO2Art package next to the return pump.  

My aim is to prevent gassing off, CO2 dissolving as close to 100% in water column, as little ph swing as possible etc.

I've not had any experience of any of this and all I know has been from reading/YouTube today.

Thanks everyone in advance,
Ash.


Aqua oak tanks 4'x2'x2' & 5'x2'x2' both freshwater set up on apex Neptune systems.  
Mortgage & Protection Adviser Full Time,
Peace


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## Edvet (22 Jan 2018)

CO2 and sumps bite each other. Any movement of water will tend to chase CO2 out of the column. Sealing the sump "airtight" will keep the CO2 in there, thus preventing loss, but in a sump you'll want more and easy acces to O2 to help the bacteria eliminate waste products.
So either be prepared to add a boatload of CO2, ( due to the sump removing it fast) or cripple the sump by sealing it and removing lots of filtermedia.
My large tank has a big sump (designed for discus fish). When i added CO2 i made sure as little water as possible went through the sump, and i had to add large amounts of CO2 through a big DIY reactor. I quit this after a few months, wasn't worth the hassle. I reduced lights and went low tech again.
I have used CO2 in adding it in smaller amounts 24/7 with succes, just in the low light situation.


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## hotashes (22 Jan 2018)

Edvet said:


> CO2 and sumps bite each other. Any movement of water will tend to chase CO2 out of the column. Sealing the sump "airtight" will keep the CO2 in there, thus preventing loss, but in a sump you'll want more and easy acces to O2 to help the bacteria eliminate waste products.
> So either be prepared to add a boatload of CO2, ( due to the sump removing it fast) or cripple the sump by sealing it and removing lots of filtermedia.
> My large tank has a big sump (designed for discus fish). When i added CO2 i made sure as little water as possible went through the sump, and i had to add large amounts of CO2 through a big DIY reactor. I quit this after a few months, wasn't worth the hassle. I reduced lights and went low tech again.
> I have used CO2 in adding it in smaller amounts 24/7 with succes, just in the low light situation.



Interesting....   Another spanner in the works!!  I've been like a cat chasing it tail while reading through various posts on the forum, now this is why...  I vaguely remember reading a post whereby a hose was put up the main overflow to prevent gassing off from the drop back to the sump.  This is something I could do if it works?  My weir is home to the herbie overflow method where currently my main drain pipe is basically a grilled standpipe screwed on by a union fitting so it is interchangeable.  This was used to prevent any possible fish/lead litter. So having the hose pipe in there will not be visible. 

As my sump has essentially not wet-dry media, to be honest the flow can be easily reduced by the ball valve on the main drain in synchronisation to the return pump pressure being reduced.  The configuration of my sump from chamber one is; over,over, immediately under and then return pump chamber.  Basically I have no major area where gassing off might be an issue so to speak.

Predicament- if I leave the main drain as it is without using the hose up method, and then seal the sump compartment with acrylic top and seal strips, will it really prevent my sponge media from getting the O2 or will the main drain water flow from the DT to sump be sufficient enough to feed the beneficial bacteria?
In chamber two of my sump where as stated above its over first baffle from chamber one and the over second baffle from chamber two (main water flow is surface in this chamber) I have siporax which actually need slower water flow so makes sense.  Here I would not seal the sump with acrylic as I don't see major gassing off here.
Finally in chamber three where return pump and CO2 will be injected (either reactor or direct diffuser next to return pump) I will seal the top with acrylic as I know it's the main injection exchange and will be important to keep the CO2 sealed in.  

So in a round about way do you think it might work as suggested?  I know every sump is different and other things play part I.e temperature, dosage amount of co2, however am I on the right path with my thoughts?

Still I'm not sure if I should do a DIY reactor (Venturi/cerges) with outlet next to return pump method or stock diffuser next to return pump method?

Thanks, Ash.


Aqua oak tanks 4'x2'x2' & 5'x2'x2' both freshwater set up on apex Neptune systems.  
Mortgage & Protection Adviser Full Time,
Peace


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## foxfish (22 Jan 2018)

There are hundreds of post on this forum based around sump design, it seems there are lots of different opinions about the best way to use them!
Some people swear their own designs don't use much C02 but from my own personal experience, I would say... be prepared with a regular supply of exchange C02 bottles & just do what you want.
Your big tanks are going to use a lot of gas anyway.
There are some big benefits that come from injecting straight into the return pump & those are the simplicity & extremely low maintenance of the method.  
Best done with a needle wheel pump, although you will get a mist effect inside the display tank, there are no atomisers to clean or clog up & you don't need high working pressures.
The overflow design will effect gas loss  especially if you pour 10 x the tank volume down it every hour.


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## Edvet (22 Jan 2018)

In a planted tank the need for a sump is low seeing the plants will do a lot of the nitrogen using ( we even add it) so i would lower the flow in it anyway, and take away a lot of the media. You would need to add extra flow/pump separate from the sump to get to the advised 10x turnoverflow anyway. I would run a separate DIY reactor and pump to get to the 10x volume, use a spraybar on this system over the full length of the tank to get good distribution.


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## hotashes (22 Jan 2018)

Edvet said:


> In a planted tank the need for a sump is low seeing the plants will do a lot of the nitrogen using ( we even add it) so i would lower the flow in it anyway, and take away a lot of the media. You would need to add extra flow/pump separate from the sump to get to the advised 10x turnoverflow anyway. I would run a separate DIY reactor and pump to get to the 10x volume, use a spraybar on this system over the full length of the tank to get good distribution.



Sorry I'm a little lost in regards to the slow flow you mention to have in the sump and then the 10x turnover you say is advised?


Aqua oak tanks 4'x2'x2' & 5'x2'x2' both freshwater set up on apex Neptune systems.  
Mortgage & Protection Adviser Full Time,
Peace


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## hotashes (22 Jan 2018)

foxfish said:


> There are hundreds of post on this forum based around sump design, it seems there are lots of different opinions about the best way to use them!
> Some people swear their own designs don't use much C02 but from my own personal experience, I would say... be prepared with a regular supply of exchange C02 bottles & just do what you want.
> Your big tanks are going to use a lot of gas anyway.
> There are some big benefits that come from injecting straight into the return pump & those are the simplicity & extremely low maintenance of the method.
> ...



Thanks for the detailed and clear input.  So if I use  a diffusers laced next to the return pump it's likely to clog?  I was set on thinking the DIY reactor was majority decision of people who had larger tanks!!  However you've sparked the brief thought of the DIY needle wheel approach (due to low maintenance...

Ash.


Aqua oak tanks 4'x2'x2' & 5'x2'x2' both freshwater set up on apex Neptune systems.  
Mortgage & Protection Adviser Full Time,
Peace


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## hotashes (22 Jan 2018)

Just a quick thank you for the input in readiness for my install, we will get there eventually..

In preparation I for-see my next challenge will be learning how much CO2 to inject into my water column?  As far as I've noted, it's best to monitor the stability of Ph prior to any CO2 and then adjust slowly the amount added while monitoring the Ph until I can maintain a stable 1.0 drop in Ph during photoperiod!!  If so then I will also run the drop checker (DC) side by side my checks to learn how my set up adjusts etc.  (NOTE I have the apex neptunes controller to read Ph (yes it will be calibrated to my ability)) 

NOTE this tank has fish who've been established here for 2 years so I MUST act cautiously.

Again thanks to all and we will get there eventually.


Aqua oak tanks 4'x2'x2' & 5'x2'x2' both freshwater set up on apex Neptune systems.  
Mortgage & Protection Adviser Full Time,
Peace


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## Edvet (22 Jan 2018)

hotashes said:


> slow flow you mention to have in the sump and then the 10x turnover you say is advised


In order to save CO2 in the sump i would use slow flow, but the sump isn't that important in a planted tank ( with enough plants, not one swordplant in between 10 discus)
In a CO2 enriched tank 10x turnover is advised, that doesn't mean all through the sump, a separate pump could be used, for instance one on a separate DIY CO2 reactor


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## zozo (22 Jan 2018)

IMHO 90% of the sump designs are over complicated when it comes to sufficiency.. I looks like the majority of them are more build to the aim extending the water volume as a positive, 350 litres in the display tank and 150 litres in the sump. Makes 500 litre volume to feed with Co2, hence you waste a lot (40% extra ?) with only 350 litres volume planted.

Than if you want a sump and Co2, this extra water volume isn't realy a positive regarding expenses. But even if more water volume is a positive regarding contamination and stability.. Do you realy need it with a high tech tank where with what ever volume you have still need that 40% weekly water change with using EI fertilization to reset you water volume? IMHO you are more wasting energy and money than anything else..

What makes the sump more efficient regarding filtration? That it is an beter aerated/oxygenated open biological filtration system than the closed cannister not the extra volume of water it contains. Even more sufficient if it has a smal portion emersed biomedia trickling and also this doesn't need to be a huge volume to be effective. Than just think of it, if you have a 350 litre tank and with this a 5 litre volume canister with biomedia is sufficient to filter it.. Than why in heavens name does a sump need to be 30 x bigger in volume. It doesn't make sense, it doesn't need to be so big.

Size it down and your problem is solved create a sump from a 25 litre tank that only holds about 15 litres of water volume will save you 90% loss of the 40% wasted in the other scenario.. Than you still have room for 10 litres of media and if you want also with a small trickle part. Than you still have 100% more media than a sufficient canister would have.

With out a sump you need to regularly top off your tank because of evaporation, daily if it's an open top. This is the only con a down sized sump will have, you need to do your daily top off consequently, if you have no means to automate this. With a canister you can forget it a day, with a small sump you don't..


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## Edvet (22 Jan 2018)

zozo said:


> What makes the sump more efficient regarding filtration? That it is an beter aerated/oxygenated open biological filtration system than the closed cannister not the extra volume of water it contains. Even more sufficient if it has a smal portion emersed biomedia trickling and also this doesn't need to be a huge volume to be effective. Than just think of it, if you have a 350 litre tank and with this a 5 litre volume canister with biomedia is sufficient to filter it.. Than why in heavens name does a sump need to be 300% bigger in volume. It doesn't make sense, it doesn't need to be so big.



Better oxygenation goes a long way, but it's best in the trickle filter. But a longer contact time (slower flow speed) helps a lot too, in a bigger system the water stays in contact with the media longer and so more there is more time to exchange between the water and the biofilm. The bigger volume is helpful in diluting the toxins. Again the planted tank functions in another way, but the plantless biotope tank with a lot of fishmass the big sump will be very helpfull in lowering the pollution and removing far more pollution, then any small canister can.


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## zozo (22 Jan 2018)

Edvet said:


> The bigger volume is helpful in diluting the toxins.


That's what i meant.. In theory yes! But what do you effectively realy need to be sufficient in practice and the scenario you use it? In a low tech invironment or a marine or anything bare bottom without plants, for this the concept initialy was designed. Having a larger more stable volume to reduce water changes etc. For a planted tank, a sump still works perfectly but it doesn't need to hold a massive volume.. If there is a weekly water change scheduled.. The whole point of the water change with EI is draining and deluting waste.

The large sumps water volume in this case is only a waste, more ferts need to be added, more co2 needs to be added and it gasses off a bit more co2.
IMHO opinion that gassing off aint the biggest waste in this.

All sumps i've seen on planted tanks are massively over calculated and wasting more than they are adding.

The question is: Is more than enough beter or a waste of recources?


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## Jakes (28 Jan 2018)

Nice tank I wish I had the space for a beast like that!  

As with the other comments on here your sump is massive for what is needed.  Great if you’re we’re going to keep Rift Valley cichlids or a marine aquarium but for a hi-tech planted setup a little of a Achilles heel but not completely insurmountable.

I like your idea of sealing in the final chamber and making it CO2 rich.  However one problem I can see with that is at night most of us switch CO2 off for obvious reasons.  If you have loads of CO2 in an airspace in there it will continue to dissolve through the night and if your tank is heavily planted may stress the fish as all the plants are gassing of CO2 as-well.  Your best bet is a diffuser.

If I were going to run this tank... and by no means am I an expert on planted tanks, môre an enthusiastic amateur... I’d have two in tank diffusers on either side of the aquarium with a spray bar along the entire length of the tank.  That way you have a CO2 supply and you are going to use a crap load anyway for the entire tank and I found in tank diffusers are great talking points when people visits. 

What size is you return pump, I assume you want to keep the aquarium clear from equipment.  You could always run two smaller return pumps with inline diffusers or ‘T’ your return line with separate diffusers supplying two halves of the tank.
What lights will you be running it looks like LED jobbies from some of your initial pictures?

One option is to get se plants that do well in low tech systems and then the CO2 is just gravy.... just an idea...

Jakes


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## HiNtZ (9 Feb 2018)

When I was sumped, mine was sealed and covered. I tried various methods and settled on in-line. I also kept the distance from water surface to the overflow (durso) box at 1" as not to loose too much.

Overall, you will use more gas than a canister filtered tank. I had great results with planted tank and sump.


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## hotashes (13 Feb 2018)

Received the Pro Elite series regulator from Co2Art and now to find the courage to tamper with my 5KG FE, to get things up and running..  For now I will be looking to use the Ista reactor (from our Chinese keepers) to dissolve the Co2 into the water u Gil I pluck more courage to build my own cerges reactor..  








Ashley..
Aqua oak tanks 4'x2'x2' & 5'x2'x2' both freshwater set up on apex Neptune systems.  
Mortgage & Protection Adviser Full Time, Peace ️


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## John White (18 Feb 2018)

Can I ask why you are using a light over your sump please?


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## hotashes (18 Feb 2018)

John White said:


> Can I ask why you are using a light over your sump please?



No teasing John, just so I can see in the unit.  You'd be surprised how dark it can get 


Ashley..
Aqua oak tanks 4'x2'x2' & 5'x2'x2' both freshwater set up on apex Neptune systems.  
Mortgage & Protection Adviser Full Time, Peace ️


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## Jakes (19 Feb 2018)

hotashes said:


> Received the Pro Elite series regulator from Co2Art and now to find the courage to tamper with my 5KG FE, to get things up and running..  For now I will be looking to use the Ista reactor (from our Chinese keepers) to dissolve the Co2 into the water u Gil I pluck more courage to build my own cerges reactor...



Have you managed to plumb it all in?  Hows the reactor working out for you?

Jakes



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