# Who doses what?



## Dan Crawford (21 Jan 2008)

Here's a poll to try and figure out what is the most common method of fert dosing.
There is no need to say why you dose a particular way really i just want the numbers.
There are probably some other popular techniques so just let me know and i'll add them to the poll.
Some of you may mix X technique with Y technique so just try and vote for what you think is most appropriate.
Thanks for your votes.


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## Garuf (21 Jan 2008)

I does EI, I'd consider an all in one though, once I've got my algae problem gone that is.


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## Lisa_Perry75 (21 Jan 2008)

I'll go with other, as my tank has a high stocking of fish so I don't dose anything atm...

I would dose Tropica plant nutrition+ but cannot find it anywhere... Grrrr...


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## ceg4048 (21 Jan 2008)

Card carrying member of the EI Taliban, ergo the following credos;

1. Thou shalt dose frequently.
2. Thou shalt not accuse phosphates of causing algae.
3. Thou shalt deliver unto the rubbish tip thine nitrate test kit.


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## Martin (21 Jan 2008)

TPN+, easy peasy lemon squeezy


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## stevet (21 Jan 2008)

dose trace elements daily - Red Sea Flora 24
tropica Nutrition at w/c (once a week)
Potassium Carbonate solution at w/c in Brighty K doses
Large Excel dose at w/c
Sometimes add extra iron at w/c time
No N and P as i have a relatively large fish load and feed regularly.
I am going to count CO2 as fert and say 3bps via glass ceramic diffuser delivered from 5Kg FE on 24/7 with solenoid as power cut backup.

A sort of modified EI i guess...?


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## George Farmer (21 Jan 2008)

Normally TPN+ exclusively but have recently added more N via KNO3 and K, Fe and Mn via Dennerle E15 tablets.  

Growth is even lusher...


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## Lisa_Perry75 (21 Jan 2008)

Where do you buy TPN+ from? Unless you get that free too


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## Dan Crawford (21 Jan 2008)

He gets it FREE, us peasants get it from aquaessentials.co.uk.


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## Tom (21 Jan 2008)

Am I the only muppet that uses ADA?


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## Ed Seeley (21 Jan 2008)

I am currently just dosing trace and Potassium in my new tank and very little in all the others.


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## GreenNeedle (21 Jan 2008)

Tom = kermit.  LOL

I dose JamesCs PMDD+PO4. using TPN (not +) for trace.

Andy


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## Themuleous (23 Jan 2008)

Ei for me, but when I get the bigger tank, I'll prob switch to PMDD or PPS pro and I cant be dealing with the large water changes of EI

Sam


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## Bingy_bong (24 Feb 2008)

TPN+ at the moment,
but once its gone im giong to try the EI method.


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## aaronnorth (26 Feb 2008)

Tom said:
			
		

> Am I the only muppet that uses ADA?



Yours is the only vote so far   

I dose JBL proflora24 daily and nutrafin weekly, i am going to change in a few weeks to 

seachem iron
seachem excell
TPN+
maybe KNO3 via dry ferts


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## Terry (26 Feb 2008)

Just gone over to EI.


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## Luketendo (26 Feb 2008)

I dose nothing at the moment.

I know, I know, I'll try get something sorted when I have CO2.


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## LondonDragon (18 Mar 2008)

For the past year I have been using a mixture of dry and liquid. I purchased a gram scale (on ebay cheap) to measure the right amounts of dry ferts needed for my tank, don't think the table spoon method to be reliable, I have about 6 or 7 diferent table spoons 

For my Juwel Rio 125 I dose the following:

Dry:
KN03 (Potassium Nitrate) 1.4gm 3x a week
KH2P04 (Mono Potassium Phosphate) 0.3gm 3x a week 
K2S04  (Potassium Sulfate) 0.4gm 3x a week 

Liquid:
Tropica Plant Nutrition - 5ml 3x a week
Kent Botanica Fe - 10 drops 3x a week

50% weekly water change

I do water changes on Saturdays and on that day I don't dose anything.
I dose the dry ferts on Sundays, Tuesdays and Thursdays.
Then donse liquid ferts on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays.

Its been working for me so far and algae as not ever been a problem. I get the odd spot on the glass which gets cleaned when I do water changes.


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## Luketendo (18 Mar 2008)

A watered down EI.

KNO3
K2PO4
Trace


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## plantbrain (18 Mar 2008)

Hummm.......how do you answer multiple methods? :idea: 

I think most everyone changes and manipulates things till they realize it's not quite as critical as they think.
Later, they realize light and CO2 are likely the reasons.

I do not dose a thing to a non CO2 planted tank..........other non CO2 tanks without sediment based ferts, I do, but only once every week and certainly at pretty lean levels. But the plants respond well, because CO2/light are limiting, thus growth demand is very low in such tanks.

Other tanks, say at the opposite end, can be driven fast using daily dosing, sediment ferts as well, and high light/high CO2.

Obviously, there are middle ranges of dosing and CO2/light as well.

*
Keeping these variations in mind can help you see why a so called confounding example works or fails when you try it.*

I see folks post about how little they add and things work well, likewise a certain person also used PO4/NO3 remover and had very rich sediment mud. While another had very rich water column dosing. Both worked well. 

Why?

Both methods supplied enough nutrients for the CO2/light demands.
However, some assume that one method is "better" as it controls for algae, that's not true.

Algae generally drives folks to try different things with methods, then plant health is next.
I'd suggest plant health as a focus. 

Give nutrient routines a fair test also, do not assume that you have good CO2 and light, plant species etc.
Make sure you do before drawing any conclusions.

Otherwise you run into many issues and make bad assumptions.
If you test, test carefully!

Overall, I think a combination of both methods in the water column and in the sediment works best(easy and forgiving) for CO2 enriched systems. Non CO2 system can have any of the 3 combinations and still does pretty well.

Also, be sure to be as critical about fish waste and fish N and P additions as you are about KNO3 measure.
There are methods to measure this.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Graeme Edwards (18 Mar 2008)

Tropica N+, only because I won a shed load in the PFK aquascaping compotion. I have enought o last a life time.

Lisa, save your money for when you come and visit TGM, they have the full range of Tropica stock and are doing a special days discount on it for us Ukaps members.
Its dead easy to use and yealds great results IMO, )

Cheers.


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## Aeropars (19 Mar 2008)

I've used EI but didnt like the water changes since i am away a lot of weekends.

I'm about to give the PPS pro tyle solution a go although I'm curious about the Tropica clone on James' website. Dosing pre made ferts just get too damn expensive for my liking.


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## plantbrain (19 Mar 2008)

Aeropars said:
			
		

> I've used EI but didnt like the water changes since i am away a lot of weekends.
> 
> I'm about to give the PPS pro tyle solution a go although I'm curious about the Tropica clone on James' website. Dosing pre made ferts just get too damn expensive for my liking.



Yep, that's why they came up with PMDD a 13 years ago.
If you want less work, use Excel or use non CO2 methods, then no testing nor no water changes.
Also, use sediment nutrients(ADA AS). I can easily go weeks without water changes even with sizable fish loads.

You just dose less and use the common sense approach which is pretty clear in EI's article.
It's just a starting point for non limiting levels, you can reduce them down, or change due to tap water etc.

Then you can easily get away with less water changes.
If you want a nice garden without work, plant choice and slowing the growth rate down is the key.

The best ways to do that: less light and perhaps going non CO2 or Excel(if you still want a water change here and there say once a month). This address the algae issues, the over growth issues and water change or testing issue.

No one dosing method can do that.
Do not place all th weight on a dosing routine.
The are other larger factors that can meet your goals and not cause more issues for you with you having even less work to do.
Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Aeropars (20 Mar 2008)

Its not that I dont want to to any water changes but with EI you have to be so strict on them otherwise you could be in a green mess! These other methods will supposedly give me a little more freedom. due to my work and weekend commitments i can sometimes do 2 water changes a fortnight then another time i can only get in 2 a month.


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## ceg4048 (20 Mar 2008)

Aeropars said:
			
		

> Its not that I dont want to to any water changes but with EI you have to be so strict on them otherwise you could be in a green mess! These other methods will supposedly give me a little more freedom. due to my work and weekend commitments i can sometimes do 2 water changes a fortnight then another time i can only get in 2 a month.



This is not really an accurate assessment. If you cruise the planted tank websites you'll find no correlation between number of tanks experiencing "green mess" and the dosing method being used in that tank. Nutrients don't cause algae. Ammonia causes algae. If a tank is being dosed via EI it is more than likely that the tank is a high light tank. In a high light tank, if the organic waste is not managed properly, ammonia buildup plus light will trigger a bloom. Many people seem to be fixated on water changes as it relates to EI. In a high light tank water changes are a necessity regardless of the dosing method. As plantbrain says, if you want less water changes then simply lower your light. If you want less plant deterioration and less algae simply add more CO2/Excel.

Cheers,


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## Aeropars (20 Mar 2008)

I wouldn't say I have high light, not in comparison to some on here. I run 4 t8's over 180 litres. I was always taught that you need weekly water changes with EI. But then your saying if I did dose EI on a low light tank then I'm less likely to get algae?

Surely nutrients have to come into it because algae is also a plant lifeform, albeit an unwated one. I freshly cycled tank filled with tap water is more prone to algae blooms than a cycled tank filled with mainly RO water surely? I know that in my experience this was the case.


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## Ray (20 Mar 2008)

Aeropars said:
			
		

> Surely nutrients have to come into it because algae is also a plant lifeform, albeit an unwated one. I freshly cycled tank filled with tap water is more prone to algae blooms than a cycled tank filled with mainly RO water surely? I know that in my experience this was the case.



True _but_ without the nutrients you can't grow plants either     It is a big misconception that nutrients cause algae - people spent a lot of effort trying to dose just enough, measuring constantly, but EI throws that out the window and gets just as good results, if not better because there is more margin of error.  You need to focus on avoiding the triggers that cause algae, namely:

Too much light for the CO2 present (= sick plants that release ammonia)
Nutrient deficiencies (=sick plants that release ammonia)
Ammonia spikes

For quite an in depth discussion on this try this thread here: http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=615&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=epiphany (quite long I'm afraid)


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## ceg4048 (20 Mar 2008)

Aeropars said:
			
		

> Surely nutrients have to come into it because algae is also a plant lifeform, albeit an unwated one. I freshly cycled tank filled with tap water is more prone to algae blooms than a cycled tank filled with mainly RO water surely? I know that in my experience this was the case.



Hi,
    No, not really. This is a common misconception which is primarily why there are so many tanks suffering algal blooms. Study this thread carefully: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=905

It's rather long winded but well worth the patience. You would be surprised to learn that in nature, freshwater algal blooms only appear in nutrient poor waters. It's important to be clear about the difference between _inducing_ algae versus _growing_ algae. The default mode of algae is in the form of spores, which, through various sensor mechanisms, monitor the condition of the environment. When the environment is favorable, the spores trigger a change and the bloom occurs. For algae, a favorable environment is one in which there is decay and pollution. Ironically, algae function as scavengers to actually clean up the environment by removing the products of decay characterized by high organic waste content and ammonia.

Once algae has been induced, then, yes they are opportunists and will feed voraciously on whatever nutrients are available in the environment. In a poorly managed tank algae is induced by the ammonia produced by organic waste and then proliferates because of the nutrients present. This becomes an optical illusion as many assume that the nutrient levels _caused_ the algae.

One of the main reasons a tank is at it's most vulnerable to algae attacks during setup is specifically due to the imbalance between ammonia and the population of other organisms which can feed on ammonia and thereby reduce it's concentration. This is the mechanism of the nitrogen cycle. When a tank is cycled the first product produce unsurprisingly is ammonia which is driven to high concentration levels until a specific population of bacteria can develop which feed on the ammonia and oxidize it to nitrite (NO2). The rise in ammonia in the presence of light triggers alga blooms. I can guarantee you 100% that this procedure occurs in exactly the same way whether the water is 100% RO or tap. RO water does nothing to stem the tide of ammonia buildup. If you experienced less blooms when using RO then there was some other factor or factors which led to less blooms. It cannot be attributed to RO water alone. There are so many variables in the ecology of a tank that it is easy to draw correlations between unassociated factors. You would have to review your entire management scheme and your procedures to compare between various tank setups.

It is specifically for this reason that in the first 6 to 8 weeks of a tank setup multiple and large water changes per week are critical to success. The water changes lowers the ammonia concentration thereby suppressing the algal trigger mechanism. After a few months the billions of bacteria required to stabilize the ammonia production in the tank develop and thus less frequent changes are required.

A low light tank lacks the dynamics of a high light tank specifically because of the low light. The metabolism of the plants is greatly reduced, the organic waste content is reduced and the plants ability to recycle organic waste is given enough time because the low light suppresses the algal trigger mechanism, even in the presence of ammonia. Therefore to answer your question, yes dosing EI on a low light tank results in less likelihood of algae. Of course, you would dose less since the plants would not need as much nutrients under low light conditions.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,


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## LondonDragon (20 Mar 2008)

Nice reply Ceg, very informative, enjoied the read, glad I joined the forum  
I have never had an algae bloom or anything of the sort, guess the constant maintenance of the tank helps and balances things out.


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