# Restructuring a Problem Tank



## Tom Raffield (16 May 2018)

Hi all,

I have been running my Juwel Vision 240 for about 18 months now having switched up from a smaller tank when I moved house. I took the plunge and went for a heavily planted tank. I guess I expected things to be hard work but I really did not expect life to get as complicated and problematic as it is at the moment. I will try and summarise my experience so far and highlight some of the major changes I have made over the last year and a half:

- Created tank with half Eco-Complete and half gravel and added root tabs. Purchased 'easy' plants to grow. Dosed to EI levels for ferts and added liquid carbon daily. Stock lights with the Juwel tank. Pressurised CO2 added.
- 12 neons, 2 corys, 8 amano shrimp, 4 raspboras, 4 cherry barb, 2, rummy nose, 1 flying fox, 1 plec.
- Feed fish and shrimps every other day.
- Lights on for 5 hours a day, CO2 two hours before. 50% weekly water change.
- Maintenance of plants, circulation pump and filter as required. Added root tabs as necessary.
- Use drop checker with 4dkh solution.

At first thing seemed to be going ok apart from a few teething problems. Everything growing well and I worked hard to maintain things as they should be, following advice when given. Over time I began to find issues with the plants. This started with black flecks on the leaves and black edges. Leaves turning brown/orange. Dark green leaves rather than bright green. Limited growth. (see other threads from me on these forums). From feedback I made changes, spent a fair amount of cash and sought further advice. A general consensus was that CO2 must be the cause. Over time I have tried these solutions:

- Upgraded with a large Hydor Koralia circulation pump for water movement.
- Upgraded to an external Fluval FX4 and removed the internal Juwel filter.
- Upgraded to a bazooka atomiser which is placed directly under the filter intake to give CO2 time to dissolve through the filter.
- Reduced lighting period.
- Increased pressurised CO2 (resulted in some deaths due to excessive increase!), reduced levels again to safe levels but the plant issues remained even at elevated levels.

To cap it all off I have more recently noticed what look like white planaria in the tank. Whilst this was on just one evening and I have not seen them since, they must be there. All my amano shrimp also unexpectedly died in fairly quick succession. A number turned bright blue or red and then were found dead the next day. Some were found dead the normal colour. I read somewhere that this could be planaria or perhaps toxicity? Does Eco-Complete become toxic through dosing? And all the while my plants still don’t look that good.

Maybe the amano deaths was the last straw but I am simply at my wits end with my tank now, I am happy to maintain the tank as I should but it is no longer enjoyable - I am looking to potentially take drastic action!

I have a long 8 week break from work coming up and could undertake a project! Is it possible to breakdown a tank and attempt to convert from what is considered high tech (the tank now?) to low tech. Could I remove the Eco Complete, reduce the plant load and perhaps even stop adding CO2? Some plants can surely survive without loads of ferts, CO2 and nutrient rich substrates?

Would the process of removing substrate, uprooting plants and simplifying the whole tank be possible without moving the fish out? Is a 'low tech' tank any easier to look after? Ideally I just want to go back to basics and start to enjoy my tank again. My old Juwel Rio 125 with stock filter/lights had next to no CO2 addition and very limited nutrient supplementation but I maintained a similar schedule. It just seemed easier and I had no major issues that I can remember.

Any suggestions as to how I can safely undertake this project or at least try and claw back the passion I used to have for this hobby would be greatly appreciated. Please help me!

* The pictures attached show the tank as it is today (one is from July 2017, then December 2017). Older pictures can be seen on previous threads.


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## Edvet (16 May 2018)

Could you use an electronic pH device (pen or meter) to do a pH profile ( take a measurment every 30 mins from before CO2 start till lights out)
It is always possible to go low tech/no CO2, just reduce the light massively and add floaters.
Which lights are the stock lights?
What are your "EI levels?


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## PARAGUAY (16 May 2018)

If it was me stick with what you have got for now .How about increasing water changes to 50% say three times a week,check feeding regime for the fish ,try and not be too drastic with the CO2 in terms of ramping right up and right down could that have effected?Gradually increase while bear in mind livestock.If you have 8 weeks coming up you a bit of time to observe


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## Zeus. (17 May 2018)

I think the issue is more poor CO2 distribution due to poor flow. The FX4 outlet is pants at moving a body of water, fine for fish only tanks, but for planted tanks we need a greater body of movements better achieved with spraybars, your three jets of water from the FX4 outlet and powerheads could yeild a better turnover for there outputs. A spraybar.  placed at the back of the tank will get the CO2 to the lower plants better. Plants look pretty healthy which surgested the issue is purely CO2 related. As Edvet surgested a pH profile will highlight any CO2 fluctuations during the photoperiod. Max pH drop for lights on then stable for 4-5hours or CO2 off.
A 3-5 day blackout could also be used to clear the hair algea on the edges of the leaves. 
Changing the tank substrate etc will do nothing if the CO2 issues are not resolved first by improving the flow and CO2 distribution to the whole tank first.
Reducing the light will help OFC but better CO2 implementation is the key long term IMO only increasing the light slowly once plants are healthy.


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## HiNtZ (17 May 2018)

I've put amanos through some pretty horrid environments and never lost a single one. Something must be properly out of whack because they are really hardy shrimp.

The colours you mention depend on environment. If there's wood in the tank they will be more red/brown. No wood and they will be more blue.


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## Tom Raffield (17 May 2018)

Thanks for the responses.

With regard to the pH, I think that would be a good idea. I would have to buy something more reliable than the simple dip sticks. I just used one of those on the tank and according to those my pH is in the 6.8 region with a KH in the region of 15-20d which on the charts looks horrendous. Surely that can't be right!

Lights: 2 T5 Tubes running iQuatics (Juwel Style) Aqua Blue and Tropical. I have reflectors but removed them.

EI: I am using the hand mixed salts from Aquarium Plant Food and add 25ml macro, 25ml micro on alternate days with Saturday (water change day) as with nothing added. I believe, if using the correct amounts on the bottle I should be dosing about 40ml.

Are sprays bars easy to fit? Can they fit under the Juwel hood? I have never come across them before other than what I have just googled.

Amanos: I have just discovered three shrimp (I thought they were all dead!). Two look normal coloration but one is super red! Like rust coloured. I have tried to attach a photo but the red colour is much darker than it appears. I figured he was on deaths door a few days ago! I do have wood in the tank but have never seen any of the other shrimp change colour like this.


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## ian_m (18 May 2018)

This is my spray bar for my Juwel 180. You will need something like this but bigger as your tank is bigger than mine.


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## Andrew Butler (18 May 2018)

Tom Raffield said:


> Are sprays bars easy to fit? Can they fit under the Juwel hood? I have never come across them before other than what I have just googled.


Hi Tom,
I know how frustrating things can get and sometimes taking that step back and looking at things is the best thing you can do BUT giving up is maybe the worst thing you can in my opinion.
Asking other people for help is a good move then listening to what they say and taking away from that what makes sense to you.
I think the best piece of advice ever given to me was to try a spraybar; you can ditch your Koralia too then.
I've made my own as the ones out there were just pants in my opinion and if you have a bit of DIY know how they are easy enough to make, any questions feel free to ask.


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## Tom Raffield (20 May 2018)

I've had a look for a spray bar that will attach to a Fluval FX4. Has anyone used one before? The Fluval spray bar that is available doesn't seem to mention the newer models of filter. Will this matter?

If one does not exist then some tips on how to construct one would be much appreciated. Word of warning... Not very DIY literate! 

Whilst doing my water change yesterday I took some close ups of some the plants in the middle (which are not doing so well). Does this look like a CO2 circulation problem and hence the need for a spray bar?


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## dw1305 (20 May 2018)

Hi all, 





Tom Raffield said:


> Does this look like a CO2 circulation problem and hence the need for a spray bar?


If the new leaves on the _Hygrophila_ are as pale as they look in the photo? That is chlorosis and likely to be a problem with iron (Fe) uptake (because it effects the new leaves it is  a non plant mobile nutrient deficiency, and iron is the most likely one to be deficient).

The problem is that nearly all iron compounds are insoluble, and plants can only take up nutrients as ions. 

Have a look at the <"Plant deficiency thread"> and <"Duckweed Index says...">.

cheers Darrel


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## Barbara Turner (21 May 2018)

Tanks can be pretty frustrating sometimes. 
The light acts a bit like an accelerator pedal, the more light you have the faster plants could grow but the more everything becomes critical, if the plant is growing faster it will need more co2 and more nutrients etc etc. 
If you're not in a rush dropping to a single t5 might make life a lot easier, but you will most likely lose some plants that are light critical. 

I'm a little bit relaxed, if a plant is growing well then great, if not, I'll remove any damaged leaves until I get sick of it pull it out. At which point I have space to try something else.  
Fish and shrimps are obviously a lot more disheartening. 

Trying to get an even flow around the tank can be a bit of a black art, I had two drop checkers a while ago and I was amazed how different readings you can get in the same tank. 
Sadly no one solution will fit all tanks, some people swear by lily pipes others spray bars. Everyone has different things in their tank so the flow will be different. 
Your tank is also quite narrow at 41cm and high at 55cm that will make life harder to get good flow to the bottom.  

The plants give you a good sign what the flow is doing around them the aim is to get them all moving slowly.     
ceg4048 posted a really good video showing flow around a tank (far better than what I get).
I ripped the internals out of my Eihiem filter and replaced them with a jebao 4000 pump, I still keep moving things around to try and get better flow to my eleocharis parvula carpet. 



dw1305 said:


> The problem is that nearly all iron compounds are insoluble, and plants can only take up nutrients as ions.



If you don't have an Iron test most local aquariums will do a full range of tests (avoid going when there busy as it takes a while) 
You might find some other problems that the tests will show,
But take care with advice as my local aquarium is still selling terrestrial plants to put in your aquarium and i'm sure they will still tell me what i'm doing wrong and try and sell me something to make them grow. 

Ps I find that if I overdose the liquid carbon it does a good job at killing of shrimps, but I also think that higher levels of liquid carbon help buffer poor Co2 distribution and reduce algae.  
(I tried a dip on some algae ridden plants and it also turned them to mush)


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## dw1305 (21 May 2018)

Hi all,





Barbara Turner said:


> If you don't have an Iron test most local aquariums will do a full range of tests.....and i'm sure they will still tell me what i'm doing wrong and try and sell me something to make them grow.


You are right, you can't test for <"available iron easily">, even with analytical grade kit. Seachem sell an iron test kit, but even they admit it isn't <"straight-forward to use">, or particularly accurate.

Iron is the most common element on Earth, and the fourth more abundant in the Earth's crust, and plants only need it in small amounts, but you can still have iron availability issues. 

The problem is the solubility question, you can have as much iron as you like in the tank, but usually that <"reservoir of iron is unavailable">.  In oxygen rich conditions ferrous/(ferric) iron ions (Fe++(+)) are only available below pH7.  If you have a well established substrate, with "chunky" plants (_Echinodorus spp._ etc.), you may get zones of in the fluctuating REDOX (in the rhizosphere) where iron ions become available.

There is a chart of the solubility of metallic compounds here <"Wikipedia: Solubility chart">, if you look at iron III (ferric) compounds, most are insoluble. It was the problems with keeping <"iron in solution"> in hydroponics that lead to the development of chelators for iron, originally citric acid and subsequently EDTA etc.

It sounds really strange but often using the plant as your "test kit" is actually a more sensitive, and more scientific, option than using a chemical reagent kit.

Iron is a really good example of this, if you have the combination of hard water and an aquatic plant with small, pale, new leaves then iron deficiency is very likely, whatever testing says.

Because iron isn't mobile within the plant you don't get an instant greening when you add it in an available form, it is only the new leaves that will be larger and greener. Nearly all the other elements where deficiency leads to chlorosis are mobile.


dw1305 said:


> The "green plants" are all the plants we want to grow (mosses, ferns and higher plants), plus some we don't, and we call these ones "green algae".
> 
> Because the green algae don't have the secondary thickening, vascular tissue etc. they can show a quick response to nutrients.
> 
> ...


cheers Darrel


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## Matt Havens (22 May 2018)

Hi Tom,


I cannot really help an awful lot with regards to what appears to be deficiency in some of your plants (I have this problem myself) but with the livestock issue I hope I can.

I have skim read through the replies here and forgive me if I missed it but you mentioned about fert tabs. 
I know from my own errors if these get disturbed or are not buried deep enough they can cause problems.

I only mention this because of what you said about your Amono's, as others have pointed out they are pretty hardy and can withstand a lot of abuse and neglect.
I could not see from the background story anything else that would cause the shrimp to do such a thing in such a short time frame and this would have sent my alarm bells ringing.
If it was me I would be looking at how deep my root tabs are, all other factors I would say do not relate to your shrimp deaths and since you do not yet know the cause of this I would focus on finding that out first.

How many shrimp did you lose in one go? 

If you can find the answer to the cause of this it may also lend a hand in sorting your plants out.

Cheers,

Matt


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## Tom Raffield (22 May 2018)

Thanks for the responses again everyone.

Root Tabs - I do use these and I generally don't push them in too far. Maybe an inch or so. Perhaps they dislodged or were moved when doing my usual maintenance. This could be a factor. I started noticing the losses on the same day that I saw the white planaria - I have not seen these since either. It felt like I had lost 'all' my Amanos as I found a number of bodies over a number of days. However since then I have seen a few survivors. Possibly 5 or so which is much better than I first thought. The 'red' shrimp was still wandering around slowly but I am fairly sure he is on his way out. The rest look fairly healthy in my opinion.

Iron - I know I am not dosing EI to the suggested amounts on the bottles. I always fear overdoing it which is silly considering I do a 50% weekly water change. Should I slowly increase ferts (especially micro) in an attempt to increase iron levels? Perhaps some of my other symptoms are deficiencies? I could resort to the 10ml per 50litres as instructed on the bottles, or even more? What do you think? I am also dosing 10-15ml of liquid carbon each day too.

Spray Bar - CO2 has been highlighted as my main problem for a long time now but everything I have to resolve this has failed. Increasing CO2, adding a larger Koralia etc. A spray bar sounds like the next best thing to try. However I can not find one suitable for a Fluval FX4. I even wrote to Fluval and asked what they would recommend and they told me not to fit a spray bar as it would cause a build up of pressure which could cause the filter to leak and damage the motor! Has anyone ever had this issue with a spray bar? And if I do pursue the idea. How am I going to fit one to an FX4 with the large piping? Any ideas or better still, DIY instructions for a novice would greatly appreciated.


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## Zeus. (22 May 2018)

Did a custom spraybar for my FX6



 
Used 25mm PVC-U Aquariumplumbing.co.uk


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## Tom Raffield (23 May 2018)

Zeus - you have had not issues with it?
How easy was it going about constructing one and attaching it to the Fluval fittings? My Juwel Vision is fairly wide - would making one as wide actually work? Any advice on how to do this would be great as the spray bar does seem the best option for circulation as I have tried everything else already! I am a total DIY novice as well. 

Has anyone had any thoughts on me increasing my ferts levels (particularly micro for iron)?


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## Zeus. (23 May 2018)

Tom Raffield said:


> Has anyone had any thoughts on me increasing my ferts levels (particularly micro for iron)?



I would up both macros and micros to EI STD to start with then wait 4-6weeks before any further change esp if doing 50% WC



Tom Raffield said:


> Zeus - you have had not issues with it?


Not really except mine a pain to clean.

But yours should be easy, I wouldn't even use any solvent weld on yours as didn't on mine where pipe was under water as easier to clean adjust etc.
1m 25mm pipe 
Or  1m clear 25mm pipe
25mm to 3/4 Inch THREADED CONNECTOR
25mm PVC-U PLAIN END CAP
 3/4 INCH HOSE ADAPTOR TO 25mm HOSE
3-4 25mm clips with suction cup. Easy on eBay etc
Done, don't even need jubilee clip as hose connects underwater, plus 1m length of pipe should be great fit for your tank. Hose will need a good soak in boiling water to get 90 degree bend on it that's all IMO, don't even need PTFE tape as minor leak underwater is irrelavent
Only issue is the P&P charge so I would get 2-3 spare grey 25mm meter lengths in case you mess up with too many/big holes. Plus big advantage of not using the solvent is you can change the pipe and use the same fittings


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## Tom Raffield (24 May 2018)

Wow - thanks Zeus!  Very kind of you to link the products in. 

Assuming that the dimensions of those will fit into the FX4 pipework. When the inlet from the filter enters the tank (on the far left in the pictures, opposite end to the out to the filter pipe) will I be bending the Fluval ribbed hosing through 90 degrees and then attaching the items you mention. That piping is super strong and not the easiest thing to bend. Will need a long old soak! I also am not sure I have the slack in piping to accomplish the turn. Is there an alternative in case I can't make the bend?

1m of pipe should fit nicely along the back wall of the tank. Should I aim for holes about 1 inch apart and how large did you drill yours? I have read in places that the line of holes should also not be straight but slightly wavy along the tube - is this a good idea too?

Sorry for all the questions, and the baby steps approach I need, but I really am a total novice when it comes to this. Some might say a total novice to tank-keeping based on my experience so far!!


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## Zeus. (24 May 2018)

Tom Raffield said:


> That piping is super strong and not the easiest thing to bend. Wil


That's also a minor concern of mine too. 
Could just get
25mm SHORT RADIUS 90 DEGREE PVC-U BEND spraybar on one end (no solvent) and the adaptors on other with solvent and PTFE on thread and hose clip.
All depends on how it works with your hood and bracing!

I do use the fluvial tubing myself and will try and see how well it bends with boiling hot water as I have a few off cuts. On holiday ATM but back home at weekend so will see how easy it is to bend. Will do a hole and size check too.



Tom Raffield said:


> Sorry for all the questions, and the baby steps approach I need, but I really am a total novice



No problem, keep asking it wasn't that long ago I was asking all the questions  It's good to share and help each other.


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## Zeus. (24 May 2018)

Tom Raffield said:


> That piping is super strong and not the easiest thing to bend. Wil


That's also a minor concern of mine too. 
Could just get
25mm SHORT RADIUS 90 DEGREE PVC-U BEND spraybar on one end (no solvent) and the adaptors on other with solvent and PTFE on thread and hose clip.
All depends on how it works with your hood and bracing!

I do use the fluvial tubing myself and will try and see how well it bends with boiling hot water as I have a few off cuts. On holiday ATM but back home at weekend so will see how easy it is to bend. Will do a hole and size check too.



Tom Raffield said:


> Sorry for all the questions, and the baby steps approach I need, but I really am a total novice



No problem, keep asking it wasn't that long ago I was asking all the questions  It's good to share and help each other.


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## Andrew Butler (24 May 2018)

Tom Raffield said:


> If one does not exist then some tips on how to construct one would be much appreciated. Word of warning... Not very DIY literate!


Karl can and has given you some good tips and I'm sure I could too.
I'm not sure whether you can fit normal hose to the FX4 or where you can pipes can enter into the aquarium but if you need any further help then ask away.


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## Zeus. (24 May 2018)

Used
25mm PVC BRAIDED HOSE which fitted fine to the hose connectors which connect to the FX6 canister filter and the 25mm to 3/4 Inch THREADED CONNECTOR
However getting a 90degree bend on that hose would definatly be harder than the ribbed fluval hose as the braided hose themselves to kink a bit in tight bends. Think the fluvial ribbed hose is better for tight bends IMO
Will test both as have spare of each


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## Zeus. (27 May 2018)

So 25mm braided hose was hardest to hold in position would kink quite a bit if close to wall. The fluval hose fitted nicely with the fluval connector to the 25mm PVC with about a four inch drop from top of tank !!! I didn't put the tank connector bracket straight as it fit better having it at a tilt
the swept bend would fit but at best an 8 inch drop even a tight 90 degree bend isn't much better


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## Tom Raffield (27 May 2018)

Thanks for the photos Zeus. 

Looking at that it looks like my best bet might be the Fluval hose? Simplest to do and least depth in the tank. I assume 4 inches down would be ok. I've got all the items you mentioned lined up in my online basket ready to go. Do you think I should crack on or give my ferts a a few weeks to take hold and monitor the difference. 

As an update, I did my usual water change this week and did my usual shudder at the state of some of the plants! Nevertheless I have now upped my dosing to the full recommended EI levels. That is to say 10ml per 50l which works out at 50ml of macro then micro on alternate days. The mix I use is from Aquarium Plant Food so I hope I won't be overdosing anything with the increase in ferts. 

I also added an extra drop checker into my tank to see if the CO2 distribution was equal. Both ran the same colours at the same times which is positive. The only area of the tank I can't measure is the centre due to the curve of the glass.


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## Zeus. (27 May 2018)

Tom Raffield said:


> Looking at that it looks like my best bet might be the Fluval hose? Simplest to do and least depth in the tank. I assume 4 inches down would be ok. I've got all the items you mentioned lined up in my online basket ready to go. Do you think I should crack on or give my ferts a a few weeks to take hold and monitor the difference.



I think the fluval tubing and 25mm PVC tubing direct without the PVC bends etc would be the best and cheapest option, as to 4 inches down is too deep,or not its a judgement call, but the holes in the spraybar can always be aimed upwards slightly which would create a gyre effect also. So I would get two 1m lengths of 25mm tubing (or more as handy to have a few to try different number and size of holes) and one 25mm end cap plus some clips to attach to tank.

I would crack on as having good flow/distribution is key to high tech tank. My 500 tank is flow limited ATM IMO but waiting release of new powerheads which should resolve this. But its your call on whether to wait or not.

Worth checking you LFS Garden centre esp if they do garden ponds as they might stock the tubing as one of my local ones does have a limited stock of it which would save on postage , as four 25mmx1m  plus end cap works out at £6.50 plus £8.00 p&p



Tom Raffield said:


> I did my usual water change this week and did my usual shudder at the state of some of the plants! Nevertheless I have now upped my dosing to the full recommended EI levels. That is to say 10ml per 50l which works out at 50ml of macro then micro on alternate days. The mix I use is from Aquarium Plant Food so I hope I won't be overdosing anything with the increase in ferts.



Takes four to six weeks to see any change, but STD EI dosing will do no harm esp if doing weekly 50% WC better to have ferts in excess than shortage get plants healthy then cut back or get cheaper DIY salts


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## Andrew Butler (29 May 2018)

Zeus. said:


> the swept bend would fit but at best an 8 inch drop even a tight 90 degree bend isn't much better



Why not connect the pipe behind the aquarium and use 90's to come up and over the top of the rim?
I've used normal 90's and these have no effect on the flow of my filter. These also mean I can get the spraybar up as close to 45mm from the top of the rim to the centre of the spraybar..


Tom Raffield said:


> would making one as wide actually work?


I also use tee's at the centre of my spraybar and distribute the flow either way which I think works better.


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## Zeus. (29 May 2018)

Andrew Butler said:


> Why not connect the pipe behind the aquarium and use 90's to come up and over the top of the rim?



Tight bends leads to loss of laminar flow so turbulence results in increase resistance so drop in flow rate. Yes you can oversize the pipework which helps and use swept bends But 90 degree tight bends or 'T' peices are best to avoid 'if' you can.

Your solution Andrew looks very tidy, but the cheaper solution would give better flow IMO.


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## Andrew Butler (30 May 2018)

Zeus. said:


> Tight bends leads to loss of laminar flow so turbulence results in increase resistance so drop in flow rate.


Of course, I'm not trying to argue that they don't but my Fluval G6 will still push through the same amount of water as if it was using their supplied fittings believe it or not.
Not to say that's the case for every filter though.


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## Tom Raffield (31 May 2018)

I have had a play around at the back of my tank and the only location I can place the tubing is on the far left of the tank where there is an indent in the tank edge. I could place the tubing in the middle with a T-joint but would also then have black tubing sticking up and out, as well as clearly visible behind the glass, which wouldn't look too good.

Since adding the new 50ml of ferts a week ago I can't report too much change (and wouldn't really expect to). Having said that the hygrophila polysperma has shot up. The older growth and stems are still of course not good but for now I don't mind what the plants look like until I get everything else sorted. The dual drop checkers are still the same colours at the same time which is a green colour at lights on and a more yellow colour for the majority of the lighting period. 

Looking through my maintenance log, my current iQuatics T5s will be a year old in July/August. In the past when I started my tank I used Juwel tubes (Day and Nature). Is there any argument for returning to Juwel tubes? The cost is largely the same from what I have seen. I also have reflectors which are not in the tank. Would reintroducing them have any benefit considering the large increase in ferts or should I be keeping light low for the time being.


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## ian_m (1 Jun 2018)

Tom Raffield said:


> Looking through my maintenance log, my current iQuatics T5s will be a year old in July/August


Why does this matter, many, many years life left then, good news. Most quality T5 tubes will be at least 5 years before lumens drops to 90% of initial value and even after that should be fine for a long time.

See here for picture of 30month and 6 month T5 Juwel daylight tubes.
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/juwel-t5-bulb-type-help.52873/#post-521671



Tom Raffield said:


> Is there any argument for returning to Juwel tubes?


I have used both Juwel and Arcadia T5 tubes and colour and light output is similar for same tube types. eg Juwel HiLite Day and Acadia Tropical Pro.



Tom Raffield said:


> I also have reflectors which are not in the tank. Would reintroducing them have any benefit considering the large increase in ferts or should I be keeping light low for the time being.


Adding reflectors will effectively double the light output in the tank, thus you need to ensure your ferts dosing is correct and more importantly you CO2 levels and distribution is spot on. I run 4 T5 tubes with reflectors on my Juwel Vision 180 and is mostly algae free, but have spent ages and ages getting CO2 levels and distribution spot on. I run 2 tubes for 17:00 to 17:30, 4 tubes 17:30 to 22:30 and 2 tubes 22:30 to 23:00, so 2 tubes 6 hours and 4 tubes on 5 hours. Possibly better algae free plant growth starting light period with only 2 tubes (and less shocked fish).


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## Tom Raffield (9 Jun 2018)

Thanks Ian, I have always read that tubes need replacing every 12 months. I guess that just keeps the manufacturers tills ticking over. I won't bother for now then. 

I am getting hold of the piping and bits for the spray bar at the moment and will take the plunge with the construction and fitting soon. 

We are into Week 3 of the 50ml ferts and growth has accelerated on the hygrophilia. There is also some nice new red/purple leaves growing on the large plant on the back right. I guess I need to remove any of the poorer leaves to really see a difference but at this point that would not leave me with many plants! On the flip side, there is now quite a lot of green algae across the back of the tank. Its not spot algae but more 'sheet' like. Nothing on the front glass though. 

This got me thinking about the actual mix of ferts suggested on the Aquarium Plant Food packs - is it actually a sensible mix? I double my amounts as I mix into a 1L solution. 12tsp magnesium sulphate does sound a lot! What do you guys think? 

*Macro Solution*

4tsp Potassium Nitrate
1tsp Potassium Phosphate
6tsp Magnesium Sulphate
500ml Water
*Micro Solution*

1tsp Chelated Trace Elements
500ml Water


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## Andrew Butler (9 Jun 2018)

Tom Raffield said:


> I could place the tubing in the middle with a T-joint but would also then have black tubing sticking up and out, as well as clearly visible behind the glass, which wouldn't look too good.


I wasn't sure where you could get pipes neatly into the tank. I have put black vinyl on the back of mine to hide everything but that's down to personal choice.



Tom Raffield said:


> I am getting hold of the piping and bits for the spray bar at the moment and will take the plunge with the construction and fitting soon.


What have you opted to go for then? I'm always interested to hear how other people approach these things and how they turn out.



Tom Raffield said:


> This got me thinking about the actual mix of ferts suggested on the Aquarium Plant Food packs - is it actually a sensible mix? I double my amounts as I mix into a 1L solution. 12tsp magnesium sulphate does sound a lot! What do you guys think?


I've used the amounts suggested by aquarium plant food and it all dissolved absolutely fine; I emailed them about making it more concentrated but never got a reply - if anyone has an opinion here I'm interested.



Tom Raffield said:


> I have always read that tubes need replacing every 12 months


I think this is more with marines where the corals rely on the tubes being in top condition.


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## Zeus. (9 Jun 2018)

Tom Raffield said:


> Aquarium Plant Food packs - is it actually a sensible mix? I double my amounts as I mix into a 1L solution. 12tsp magnesium sulphate does sound a lot! What do you guys think?



Sounds about right to me. I have been sing TNC calculators to work my mixes out and for making 4l stock solution dosing 100ml x3 week to yield a 10ppm weekly dose of Mg I need to add 650grams of MgSO4


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## Tom Raffield (9 Jun 2018)

Andrew Butler said:


> What have you opted to go for then? I'm always interested to hear how other people approach these things and how they turn out



I'm going for Zeus' first option. Adding the piping to the existing Fluval hose and connectors. It looks the simplest and quickest method to construct a spray bar. It may well be nearly 4 inches down into the tank but I will twist the pipe and holes upwards slightly. Waiting for parts to arrive.

BAD NEWS!!
Just returned home from the pub and found one dead neon, two near dead cory's and a near dead pleco. All on their sides gasping for air. Checked the drop checker and it is more yellow than I have ever seen. My pressure gauge is also showing near zero (I knew it was almost empty) but strangely enough the pressure has shot from just under 2 bar to almost 2.5 bar! I have poisoned the fish?! Stupid thing is I suspected I may have been adding too much CO2 recently as when I checked my cylinder today (water change day) it was running very low and in less than 2 months! It was a 3.25kg cylinder! The corys have also been acting strangely for a while!
I have turned off all CO2 and adding some fresh water whilst hammering my koralia towards the surface to agitate the water. Surely this now points to a lack of circulation in the water as my ferts are definitely in excess and from the looks of tihngs so is my CO2.


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## Zeus. (9 Jun 2018)

sorry to hear the news

Sounds like an end of tank dump from a single stage regulator to me. Feel you pain m8 .


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## Tom Raffield (9 Jun 2018)

Zeus. said:


> sorry to hear the news
> 
> Sounds like an end of tank dump from a single stage regulator to me. Feel you pain m8 .



Add to the potential casualty list another Amano! On his back, legs going - I have had some seriously bad luck with this tank. Cursed perhaps! Have to wait till morning and see what happens. 

I'm not even sure my regulator is single stage?! Can you check the photo for me? I will admit that I did tamper with it to increase pressure a while ago and in doing so did 'explode' a spring and part of the mechanism underneath. I did manage to put this back but I guess there could be an issue there, or perhaps a leak hence the quick use of an entire cylinder. They usually last me 3/4 months minimum.

So do I spend out on a new regulator before I attach a new cylinder, or try and reduce the working pressure on my current one back to 1.5 bar. Is it worth risking this regulator again? How much is a suitable replacement? My CO2 replacements are £36 delivered. I've just spent £100 today on 4L of Excel Flourish, 1L of Aqua Safe and a pH tester kit! My tank is eating my money and thats before I even consider restocking the inhabitants or replacing plants. Grrrr!


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## alto (9 Jun 2018)

Replace the regulator - this is not really an optional spend (IMO) - unless you can remove livestock
You could check into having it rebuilt/repaired but the would leave you without CO2

As for when to replace fluorescent tubes ... this has to do with the phosphors used to generate the spectra which the manufacturer states for the particular tube (blend): these degrade at different rates, the human eye is NOT an analytical detector of spectra
Annual replacement (based upon hours of use) is suggested for these reasons
I've seldom replaced my T5's annually but try to do so at ~2yr - my plants do notice


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## X3NiTH (9 Jun 2018)

Sorry for your losses, single stage apparently.

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/does-anyone-own-a-jbl-m001-regulator.32366/

Your choices are - 

1. Keep an eye on the cylinder pressure and replace before EOTD (waste of gas but better than dead fish).

2. Replace single stage regulator with a dual stage regulator.

3. Use a pH controller and set it to switch off just beyond where your current injection volume maximum levels are.

4. No supplemental CO₂.

Either of these four things will prevent EOTD casualties.

Option 1 is not fail safe (subject to life gets in the way sometimes - likely)
Option 2 is near fail safe (subject to user error or material degradation - less likely)
Option 3 is near fail safe (subject to user error or material degradation - likely user error - likely pH probe lifespan (can be mitigated through readjusting controller to new profile even if the pH reading is inaccurate compared to titration testing)
Option 4  is a lot tougher than its made out to be if targeting fussy plants.

There's always the belts and braces which is a combination of Option 2 and Option 3 (not 100% safe as belts and braces are still vulnerable to user error and material degredation).

Read enough about EOTD to never want one, it's not easy keeping the plants happy and not killing the fish with added CO₂, it's all about a happy equilibrium and it can be a tough road to walk.


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## Tom Raffield (10 Jun 2018)

Good news. Having checked the tank thoroughly I appear only to have lost the neon and possibly the amano. The corys and the plec appear to be heading back to normal after the partial gassing! My CO2 is now fully depleted and I will be waiting till Wednesday for the new one. Should I add more Excel to counter the loss of CO2 or just go lights off and stop ferts for a few days? Not sure of the best case of action whilst waiting for what I am ordering.

I'm in the process of finalising the orders:

Have opted for a new dual stage regulator from CO2 Art: PRO-SE Series - Aquarium CO2 Dual Stage Regulator with Integrated Solenoid.
Going for 3 x 25mm black piping, the 25mm end cap, the threaded connector and hose adaptor (not sure I need all this to pull of Zeus' first build option above but am getting it just in case).
4 suction cups and clips for 24mm tubing. The 1mm difference should be ok? https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00X9IP6B8/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=AG4A6CPO0BVL1&psc=1

This lot, on top of yesterdays spending and the £40 for my new 3.5kg CO2 cylinder, has made this weekend quite an expensive one!


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## Zeus. (10 Jun 2018)

Tom Raffield said:


> Wednesday for the new one. Should I add more Excel to counter the loss of CO2 or just go lights off and stop ferts for a few days? Not sure of the best case of action whilst waiting for what I am ordering.



In the same boat here as CO2 very low due to Hols. I did a double WC lights off, no ferts/LCO2. Cover tank so NO light. So blackout 'no peeking' When CO2 ready WC before CO2 then need to let plants adjust to CO2 again so turn light /photoperiod down


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## Andrew Butler (11 Jun 2018)

Tom Raffield said:


> 4 suction cups and clips for 24mm tubing. The 1mm difference should be ok?


I'm sure I have some new 25mm black ones here you can have for postage if you like?


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## Tom Raffield (12 Jun 2018)

My purchases are slowly arriving.

Have my 4L Excel, 1L AquaSafe, pH alert and the new regulator. It does look smart!

The CO2 is arriving tomorrow and then i'm waiting on the piping.

When it comes to reattaching the CO2, should I go for a much reduced rate at first and build up over a few days? Do I need a water change first, I have added nothing to the water since the accident. My next scheduled water change is on Saturday.


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## Tom Raffield (14 Jun 2018)

Everything is here! Piping and all.

Have just done a water change having ended the tank blackout and have everything back up and running. Running the new regulator which seems so much better than my previous one. Very precise when setting working pressure and bubble count but then for £110 I would expect that.

Some of the plants looked a little pale which isn't a surprise and some of the crypts had a black edge which had developed on some leaves. Running the CO2 at a low level for a day to build it up and the new pH Alert is showing a level of 7.4 after the water change. 

Will build up the courage to build the spray bar next so any suggestions as to hole diameter and spacing would be great. Just waiting on the clips to arrive and then I can get it installed.


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## Andrew Butler (15 Jun 2018)

Tom Raffield said:


> any suggestions as to hole diameter and spacing would be great


I know you're running a Fluval FX4 but I'm unsure of the supplied hose dimensions which is what you want to base things on.

For now as an example if we base it on the 25mm PVC pipe you have brought; that will probably have an internal diameter of around 21mm.
Back to basic maths; we need the area of the pipe and the formula for that is Pi times the radius squared - if you google area of circle google will pull you a calculator up which makes things nice and easy.
In this case the radius is 10.5mm (half the diameter) and the area of the circle is 346.36 which is what we want the area of the holes to match in the spraybar.
We will assume your spraybar is 1m long between fittings for now.
If we look at the area of a 3mm circle that is 7.07 which would mean you would need 49 holes to match the area of the 21mm
If we want to divide these holes up evenly we can divide our 1m length by 50 (number of holes +1 for the ends) which conveniently this gives us spacings of 20mm between hole centres and 10mm at either end.
Does this make sense to you?

49 holes may sound a lot or spacings of 20mm too close but I have holes around 16mm apart and I don't think it looks too busy.
I think a hole around 3mm makes a nice size but this is just my opinion.
To make it easy if you get it all assembled dry, without the holes and get the measurements between the fittings it's a simple case of dividing the holes evenly.

Any questions or help needed just ask.


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## Tom Raffield (24 Jun 2018)

Hi all,

With everything now here I am ready to make and test a spray bar. Thanks to everyone for their advice so far. 

One question remains: will my 25mm piping (21mm internal) be too small to cope with the Fluval FX4? The Fluval tubing has an internal diameter of 28mm. Whilst this sounds a small difference I have been advised that the difference in area of each pipe's cross section could cause a problem for flow rate from the FX4? Or worse still, could it cause problems with backflow or damage the filter? Has anyone got any final advice or suggestions before I commence a build? I was planning to follow Zeus' suggestion and feed the bar from the left of the tank, attaching to the Fluval tubing directly. I have all the components from Zeus' build but am happy to buy the odd additional piece (or new pieces) if required. Thanks in advance.


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## Edvet (25 Jun 2018)

Could you manufacture a T piece on the 28 to go to 2x 25?


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## Andrew Butler (25 Jun 2018)

Tom Raffield said:


> will my 25mm piping (21mm internal) be too small to cope with the Fluval FX4? The Fluval tubing has an internal diameter of 28mm. Whilst this sounds a small difference I have been advised that the difference in area of each pipe's cross section could cause a problem for flow rate from the FX4?



The FX4 pump uses a 28mm internal filter pipe; area of - 615.75
The area of 21mm circle and the inside of your PVC pipe - 346.36
This means the area of the inside of your PVC pipe is only around 55% of your filter pipe which I think you will agree is quite a restriction and from the experience I have had will most likely cause quite a restriction on your filter and flow.
The filter flow rate of the FX4 is advertised as 1700 LPH

I have Fluval G6 filters which use a 16mm internal filter pipe; area of - 201.06
I tried using a 16mm pvc pipe so the hose barbs worked which have the internal dimension of 13mm and area of - 132.73
You can see this is again only around 55% of the G6 filter pipework.
The Fluval G6 filter has a graph on screen showing the rate of flow and no matter the amount of holes I drilled in the 16mm PVC I could not get flow much beyond half so I changed the pipe to 17.5mm internal which has given me more than enough area and no problem since.
The filter flow rate of the Fluval G6 is advertised as 1000 LPH so a lot less than your FX4.


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## Tom Raffield (25 Jun 2018)

Would something like a 32mm PVC pipe do the job instead? https://www.aquariumplumbing.co.uk/list-pondplumbing.asp?ProdGrp2=700 With a simple end cap? Hopefully it would attach to the Fluval tubing using the existing pieces on the filter.


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## Andrew Butler (26 Jun 2018)

Hopefully other people have an opinion too; but the simple way to see if the 25mm pipe impedes your original filter tubing is to time how long it takes to fill a bucket with/without a piece of 25mm tubing attached to the end.
If it's the same then there shouldn't be a problem but if not then maybe it is worth looking at a bigger pipe.



Tom Raffield said:


> Would something like a 32mm PVC pipe do the job instead?


32mm 10 Bar PVC pipe would have a wall thickness around 1.8mm so internal would give you around 28.4mm which is as big as your filters tubing.



Tom Raffield said:


> Hopefully it would attach to the Fluval tubing using the existing pieces on the filter


Unsure quite what pieces you mean on the filter or how you would do this but IF you were to go bigger then there are many options

IF you were to go bigger on the pipe then you could look towards 32mm solvent weld waste pipe as it comes in black so might look neater - just my opinion though.

Andrew


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## Tom Raffield (14 Jul 2018)

Photo Update:

I have everything I need to build the spray bar and with Andrew's help I will be doing this next week as I am away for a week on Monday.

The plant photos clearly show the state of the leaves and as I am now dosing excessive ferts, have a limited photoperiod of 5 hours and good tank maintenance routines I assume this must, must, must be a CO2 issue. Primarily circulation and this is where I hope the spray bar will be the final piece of the puzzle.

It appears to me that new growth starts of a nice green colour (see photo) but then within a matter of days/weeks starts to take on the appearance of the other leaves shown in the photos. The main issues are the 'orange' mottled appearance of the leaves, the black edging and flecking on some leaves which then appears to cause the edges to die and the generally limited growth of the tank compared to what it was when setup almost 2 years ago. I am aware that some plants simply don't take in certain tanks but I would hope 'easy' plants would do well in a tank such as mine. Perhaps I need to purchase new plants when the spray bar goes in and try some different ones. Perhaps I need more fish? With so few in the tank the usual waste which would feed the plants must be very limited?

Does anyone have any further thoughts on the plant issues. I will of course update again as the spray bar is made and fitted!


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## Tom Raffield (23 Jul 2018)

Hi all,

As no one has mentioned anything about the photos, would someone be kind enough to comment on this water quality report? I am no expert but, due to continuing issues with my plants I have researched the water I am using in my tank. My water company provided me with the link below. Could the actual water I am adding to my tank be causing me some problems? Thanks in advance.

https://www.waterplc.com/waterquality/L02.pdf


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## ian_m (24 Jul 2018)

Tom Raffield said:


> Could the actual water I am adding to my tank be causing me some problems?


Makes no difference. You drink the water and don't die, so whatever the tap water, it will be fine for plants. Just dechlorinate if keeping fish. Job done.


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## Tom Raffield (24 Jul 2018)

ian_m said:


> Makes no difference. You drink the water and don't die, so whatever the tap water, it will be fine for plants. Just dechlorinate if keeping fish. Job done.



I always treat the water when doing my water change so thats all good. Does the hardness (or other parameters of the water) not have an impact on nutrient or CO2 availability or uptake?


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## ian_m (24 Jul 2018)

Tom Raffield said:


> Does the hardness (or other parameters of the water) not have an impact on nutrient or CO2 availability or uptake?


Not really. Some plants may prefer softer water, some fish/shrimp spawn better in softer water, but really you should try and work with the water you have as you can then concentrate on getting other things right, namely CO2 levels, flow and distribution.

My water is rock hard, 22' Clark (320ppm) and never had an issue with plants not growing and fish no reproducing like rabbits....

Some people sometimes, possibly, more likely falsely infer, that hard water prevents their magnesium and/or iron and/or phosphorus uptake by the plants, but I have not seen any issue.

People get all worried about the "Redfield ratio" (ratio of NO3 to P) being affected by hard water, but this has well and truly been debunked, both Redfield ration and any affect of NO3 and P uptake due to hard water.

Some people seem it infer that as water is hard therefore high pH there iron "unchelates" and falls out of solution and would recommend a better chelated iron that can survive high pH. Again I have not had any issues with my AquariumPlantfood micro's. (Solufeed B). The instructions for Solufeed B say, just mix with water.

As for CO2 injection, regardless of water hardness, a 1pH drop in pH levels equates to about 30ppm CO2. eg if your water is 4 kH and pH is 7.6 then dropping pH (via CO2) to 6.6pH will be due to 30ppm CO2, similarly for 20kH and pH 8.3 dropping to 7.3 pH will be due to 30ppm CO2. (OK I read these values from a table, but generally will be the same'ish in a tank).


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## Tom Raffield (2 Aug 2018)

SPRAY BAR IS COMPLETE!

I have had the bar running for almost a week now. I have lowered it by an inch from where it was in the photos.

Since the installation I have adapted my CO2 injection rates to ensure my drop checkers are green for lights on. Am really hoping the bar makes a positive difference on the plants in the tank - but who knows?!

Thanks to everyone who has helped so far. I couldn't have got to this point without your advice.


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## Andrew Butler (1 Oct 2018)

Any update Tom?


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