# Why does it take so long for my drop checker to go green?



## 5678 (15 Jun 2015)

This is baffling me, so I thought I'd ask for help. 

My light period is 1400-2100
I have my CO2 on from 1130-2000. 
Using a cheap ph pen, my ph is 8.1 in the morning with a blue dc.
I am using an UP in line diffuser 6" along the return pipe from my JBL e701, the tank is 50l.

The DC is a blue/green a lights on, ph is around 7.7/7.8
The DC does not go green until around 1700 when the ph will measure 7.4
Now, at 1930 the dc is still green and the ph is 7.3. 

All fish are happy, not even the slightest sign of stress/issues. 

My confusion is as to why it takes so long for the dc to go green and the ph to drop? 
What should I try to adjust to get it green for lights on and to remain static during my lighting period?


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## Julian (15 Jun 2015)

Check for leaks/increase bps.


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## 5678 (15 Jun 2015)

99% sure there are no leaks. I'll double check though. 

If I increase bps then isn't there a risk of it putting too much co2 into the tank? I guess I could counter by turning it off earlier, but then would that not lead to levels fluctuating too much?


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## 5678 (15 Jun 2015)

Just a thought, would too much surface agitation cause the issues I have described?


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## zozo (15 Jun 2015)

Sure that risk is always there when you increase Co2 gift.. But first check your KH..

And see this diagram as a rough gide line




In some cases this diagram isn't acurate and sometimes you have much more co2 in there than this table tells you.. That's why you should keep an eye on the fish. When they start to breath heavy you have to cut back on th bpm.

Also that dropchecker is a rough gide line and always 2 maybe 3 hour late.. So it shows you what the value was 2 hours before.

F.e. when i compare my current values with the above table.. I got a KH 5 and about a 10 hour 100% light intesity. Averagely  i start with PH 6.8 it rarely starts with PH 6.9 or PH 7.. PH 7.1 is the highest ever measured. My PH drops in less then 2 hours to PH 6.40 / 6.35 if i go PH 6.2 i see the Ember Tetra's gills movement change. So 6.4 is my turning point and keep it at that level. When you look at the table above i''m must be almost at the double of the recomended 30 ppm. I can't believe that's so, but i don't realy care, It's 24/7 pretty stable in the optimum range, my fish are happy and the plants grow like crazy..  That's all we want.

Yes surface agitation makes co2 disapear.. When i'm at PH 7 for a start i see my water level lower than normal. evaporation, got a ball shape lily creating a swirll, if i hear it splashing i need to fill her up 1/2 a liter..


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## xim (15 Jun 2015)

Now you are in the category of "gun shy" designated by Tom Barr .
His comment about this might help.
http://www.barrreport.com/forum/bar...ow-light-plant-deficienties?p=72507#post72507


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## xim (15 Jun 2015)

5678 said:


> Using a cheap ph pen, my ph is 8.1 in the morning with a blue dc.



There may still be some residual CO2 in the water in the morning. 
Try scooping some water into a vial, then agitating it in front of a fan.
This will drive most CO2 out of the water. Then measure the pH. 
Dropping 1 pH unit from that value should give you about 30 PPM.


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## 5678 (15 Jun 2015)

Lol @ gun shy! Pretty close! 

In the mornings the do is deep blue. I'm pretty sure I'm in equilibrium by then. 

I've decreased surface agitation a touch and will see how that goes tomorrow. I'm not scared about upping the gas. Just seems to make sense to understand the other variables with an amount that isn't toxic, my plants seem ok with and isn't causing me algae.


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## Jose (16 Jun 2015)

5678 said:


> Just a thought, would too much surface agitation cause the issues I have described?



Yes, a few factors that affect co2 concentration are:

-injection system. An inline atomizer should be farely good in dissolving co2. You should put it as near to the filter as possible so that bubbles travel  a longer distance to get to the tank, dissolving more in the way. Some people have it befor the filter. I wont get into this.
-surface agitation/surface scum...it doesnt let the co2 out so it will build up in your tank and gas the fish. This is quite important.
-mixing i.e how much flow inside the tank is mixing the co2 bubbles. So more flow under the surface can mean higher co2 levels because its mixing it better.
-Temperature. You ought to be no higher than 24/25 although if you are you can just add a bit more co2.

Think of co2 as a dynamic state. Almost everything has a play.

Also if you are not using very bright light then you might be fine as you are. Dont increase co2 unless you have algae/co2 defficiencies in plants.


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## 5678 (16 Jun 2015)

Jose said:


> Yes, a few factors that affect co2 concentration are:
> 
> -injection system. An inline atomizer should be farely good in dissolving co2. You should put it as near to the filter as possible so that bubbles travel  a longer distance to get to the tank, dissolving more in the way. Some people have it befor the filter. I wont get into this.



It's a few inches along the return pipe, I'm aware of the downsides to putting it in the inlet hence it being where it is 



Jose said:


> -Temperature. You ought to be no higher than 24/25 although if you are you can just add a bit more co2.
> .



I'm at 25/26 degrees at the moment so hopefully this wont make a massive difference. 

As I said, I decreased my surface agitation (changed spraybar angle to horizontal) so will see how that affects things first. Once I know the behaviour with this I will look to up the bubble count.


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## Paulo Soares (16 Jun 2015)

If you want to solve your issues about CO2 do as i did if you intend so.

CO2 turned on 24/7. 

In mother nature do you turn off CO2? Is always present no matter if it´s day or night. 
And for those who say plants release CO2 by night and warn about overgas livestock  bla bla bla forget it.. is such a minor amount that you can´t even measure it. Forget that argument. 

You can stabilise for good your CO2 living it on 24/7 
Leave it as it is now and don´t open the valve to increase more. Just leave it that way. 
By tommorrow check the DC. You should find it light green cause CO2 is now being acumulating even considering what is needed for consumption byt he plants. 
If Co2 still remains more blue or dark green in the DC increase just a little bit opening te valve and chek next day. Repeat till you find it light green.
BY the time you find light green you have it  The reagent inside it doesn´t lie as any test does 
It means that plants consume what they need during photoperiod and you have it stable in good values all the time. No flutuation at all. 
If you find it yellow anytime just do reverse and decrease till you get it.

Regard also that plants do consume CO2 along their living (day and night) and not only when lights are on. When lights are on they consume more cause or energie of course delivered from lights.

Also.. it is claimed that flutuations of CO2 and Ph are the cause of most algae isnt´that so? Yu can read in every post you find about CO2 issue. 

So i shuting off and on according to lights? Does this make any sense?

More you can buy a 30 ppm calibrated solution by CAL AQUA and there you know that you are in really good values. 

More even as time goes by you´ll find that you wont´need to have the DC in light green but in a darker green and plants do fine  Cause the CO2 is always present so the demand of themselves started to be minor in time. It´s just like they (the plants) dont have to worry of eating as mnuch as they can in that photoperiodo time  

I have it this way for a year now and no issues about CO2. Is a parameter i don´t have to worry about when somethings not right. 

This method of turning on the CO2 as the lights turn on also or some couple of hours before is a method tooken by thousands but concerning only consumption of CO2. That was the major concerning.
Why everybody adopt this method? Is there any scientific purpose or explanation that this is the right thing to do?
For thinking. 

Big hug to all.


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## Paulo Soares (16 Jun 2015)

Of course you´ll need a proper filter and really good difusser or inline to had the CO2 in your tank as it should be. Be aware of this. I also reach good values of Co2 by the time i bought also a ADA 40 Pollen beetle cause till then with medium equipment i had more difficulties. 
Seeing bubbles everywhere doesn´t mean you have good dissolution and so the same for inliners. Maybe there you´re wasting Co2.. and leaving it 24/7 will be wasting a lot. 
Buy really good equipment, leave it 24/7 and you´ll see. 

Best Regards


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## 5678 (16 Jun 2015)

Interesting concept Paulo and it does make sense I agree. I will give it some thought and potentially leave my co2 running later this evening and see what it does.


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## Paulo Soares (16 Jun 2015)

Concerning counsumptions: My 2 kg fire extinguisher of Co2 remains for 3 months in 24/7 worrk. It costs 6.5€ every three months.


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## 5678 (16 Jun 2015)

Paulo Soares said:


> Concerning counsumptions: My 2 kg fire extinguisher of Co2 remains for 3 months in 24/7 worrk. It costs 6.5€ every three months.



Not much of a concern really. I am using sodastream bottles on a very small tank.


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## Jose (16 Jun 2015)

There are pros and cons for each method

CO2 on 24/7: 

Good if you have unstable BPS (bad regulator) which changes with the solenoid being turned on/off. Also good if you have a lot of window light hitting the tank. If co2 were off it would make algae grow. Also good  if your diffusion method is weak. I consider an intank diffuser quite a weak method. Inline atomizers are a lot better.

Bad for saving co2, worse for fish (believe me its not the same being exposed to it 24/7), also bad if you want to push your co2 to the maximum fish can handle because fish cant handle so much co2 if they are exposed 24/7. Basically co2 is going to be 2-3 times more expensive so this is a biggie.

In the end the main thing is trying to get good levels of co2 when plants start photosynthesis. This is the most important time.


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## Paulo Soares (16 Jun 2015)

Jose said:


> In the end the main thing is trying to get good levels of co2 when plants start photosynthesis. This is the most important time.



Sorry but that seems a wrong vision in my opinion. That is the goal for thousands or millions trying to accomplish cause of a *sudden need*.. in a *quicly* method or way no regarding second effects. We just close our eyes to whats on the left or right and get focus on a goal. 
Usuallly people state in their minds to get a goal of one unit down on the PH assuming that will do a 30 PPM amount of co2 in accordance to those tables and other events.

This sudden need and brute force hading CO2 in a minor time alters all tank water parameters in a suden time also.Do you believe this won´t have a great negative impact? 
And then again by the end of the day when you shut it down you´ll be altering again all parameters. Don´t tell that me you believe this is a good method cause i know you don´t.

By having Co2 in a 24/7 i didn´t even worry about achieving that. Is always there. My tank parametters are always the same. CO2+PH+KH+GH etc.. 
This is called a stabilised ecosistem. 
By having a stabilised ecosistem plants and fishes adapt and live in those conditions and aren´t adapting twice a day, 730 times a year to changes in the list of probalities. 

As concerning push CO2 to limits what is the need for that? 

You also know the maximum CO2 *intake* that plants have. You really don´t need more than 20 to  30 PPM.  
All that you had beyond this is waste. 

And something else i didn´t reffer before is that by having this establishment i can even measure much better the plants consumption. Almost the same during times.. establishment! They grow adapting to the STUCKED parameters. 

Other concern but that is just a thought of mine:  I think the "Estimative Index Sistem"  is not a good companion of all this.. cause that ideia of putting all salts in the tank no matter in what values doesn´t bring algae is not quite true.  cause if you have it stabilized as i do without algae and doing fertilization by ADA method or Tropica ferts and nothing occurs till you start doing "Ei".. i take my conclusions. Nothing that i didn´t have said and thought quite a long time ago. I quit "Ei" for quite a time now. To much variables to deal with.

A big hug Jose.


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## Jose (16 Jun 2015)

I think many many many people think the same way as you Paulo. Ive had the same debate a few times now over here.

The origin of all the confusion is in the co2/light and peoples assumptions. EI is more complex than many think, specially the questions that people bring up. Tom Barr has explained all this questions in his page and its makes very good sense. Many of those assumptions are being made by you now Paulo. T. Barr has explained why ADA works and every other method out there works but its all down to the relationship light-co2, and then nutrients need to be there as well wether it is from soil or in the wate.

For example I wouldnt dare to tell anyone about EI in Spain cause they would throw tomatoes at you. So it really has to be taken with an open mind and it takes a bit of reading and testing as well from yourself.


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## Paulo Soares (16 Jun 2015)

Jose said:


> For example I wouldnt dare to tell anyone about EI in Spain cause they would throw tomatoes at you.



 why is that? 
My spanish brothers are complicated?? i live right next to them


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## Jose (16 Jun 2015)

Paulo Soares said:


> why is that?
> My spanish brothers are complicated?? i live right next to them



Haha nevermind. But because everything about EI is in English I doubt anyone is applying it in Spain. Its a shame Paulo but we are a few years behind in many things Im afraid.


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## PARAGUAY (16 Jun 2015)

Put if not already the checker near the substrate it gives a indication as to flow around the aquarium if enough CO2 .You could put a couple of checkers in to see if flow is all around. A re plants growing better in a certain part of the tank


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## 5678 (16 Jun 2015)

Spray bar is against the back wall facing the front of the tank. 

DC is about 1/3 way down on the back wall. I might put a second dc in against the front wall too.


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