# WPG Confusion.



## Martin296 (5 Sep 2014)

Hello all.

After reading far too much into lighting, I've now confused myself.

I have a tank that measures 36"L x 18"W x 20"D which I'm getting to be 212litres.
But being in the UK, do I work with US gal, or UK Gal?

The lighting is 2x 25W (T8) and 2x 38W (T5HO).

Could someone please put me out of my misery and confirm what my approx WPG is please?

I'm thinking its around 3.2WPG

Thanks


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## allan angus (5 Sep 2014)

i make it around 3.93 watts per us gall ( i think us galls are the norm ) mind you risk an argument using watts per gall on here im sure someone will start to mutter par readings before long


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## ian_m (5 Sep 2014)

Original research was in US gallons.

Anyway the chart below from http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=105774 is a rough handy guide to light level.






So for your 20" depth with just T5's (assuming no reflector) you are in upper end of medium light, add the T8's and into high light region, matching the 4wpg given by Allun above.

So you need very very good CO2, ability to control light levels or you will end up just growing algae.


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## Martin296 (5 Sep 2014)

Ah thats perfect.

I'm not aiming for high light if I'm honest. I'm mainly growing anubias, java ferns, and amazon swords (can't spell the specific names sorry) I am however after medium light.

All my light have reflectors, the T5HO tubes are in a lumaiere? from all pond soloutions, so that too has reflectors.
Would it be adviseable just to use the T5 unit and bin the T8 tubes? I am trying to grow carpet moss too (Spikey, java and Taiwan) I am also using DIY CO2 currently, with one bubble a second - I do have a 10litre bottle ready to fill - but I need to get a reg - which will be happening on payday haha.


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## ian_m (5 Sep 2014)

You are heading for an algae growing & plant vaporising train wreck with having both high lights and DIY CO2. If you have high lights you must have high and repeatable and controllable and consistent and measurable (and in a cylinder and with a regulator and with a solenoid) CO2, which you will not get with DIY (I am assuming yeast CO2).

So in the meantime you need to reduce lighting, either not turning on tubes, removing tubes, covering tubes, putting foil around the tubes etc, to get the light levels down (to low ?) to match the very very very very very poor levels and poor control of CO2 you will get with DIY CO2.

If a new tank, run with even lower light levels for short periods of time until things settle down before attempting to gas and vaporise your plants.


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## Martin296 (5 Sep 2014)

The current lighting is two T8 (25w ea) and yeh, using a yeast mix. 

I'm thinking of replacing the twin T8's, with my T5 lumiare unit now after reading into lighting a bit more. I don't want to go too high as I just don't have the skill or knowledge to maintain a high level tank.

Its not a new tank, but plants haven't quite established yet after a rescape. (I have algae problems now with low light)


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## ian_m (5 Sep 2014)

Abruptly changing your light levels will cause issues.

I changed from 50W T8's to 70W T5's and saw my first ever green algae start appearing. Nipped that before it got hold by seriously reducing lighting time for a couple of months and cleaning. Now things have settled, lighting period with T5's up to what it was with the T8's but now with pearling plants and monster growth.


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## Martin296 (5 Sep 2014)

Wow how amazing is that!!

So going straight to T5's is a bad idea?
This is all confusing 

Can I fit my T5 unit tonight, and just maintain with water changes etc to reduce algae problems?

My lighting currently clicks on around 2pm and then goes off around 10pm


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## ian_m (5 Sep 2014)

Martin296 said:


> Can I fit my T5 unit tonight, and just maintain with water changes etc to reduce algae problems?


No. Yes if you want issues.

My lighting with T8 was 4pm to 11pm. Changing to T5 produced instant algae issues both BBA and plants and green on glass.

So reduced lighting to 7pm to 11pm with the T5's for a month or two and slowly ramped time up. Currently running 5pm to 11pm, which appears stable.

Remember I have spot of CO2 as well and 5100litres/hour flow (ok 3000litres/hour due to power head). My drop checker looks like this...heading yellow..regardless where I place it in the tank each day and every day.


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## Martin296 (5 Sep 2014)

I have a small amount of co2 going in, as I said around 1 bubble per second.
my flow is 1800 litres/hour.

So if I put my lights on say from 5-10 and see how it goes? but basically its a case of reduce the lighting hours, and slowly up it by what? 1/2hr per month?


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## ian_m (5 Sep 2014)

Martin296 said:


> So if I put my lights on say from 5-10 and see how it goes? but basically its a case of reduce the lighting hours, and slowly up it by what? 1/2hr per month?


You need to just suck it and see. If your plants melt away (lack of CO2 and/or too much light) and tank goes green, then too much light. You will have difficulties, due to unknown and variable levels of CO2, but start low level light, you just get slow plant growth. The ramp up light level slowly what ever amount doesn't cause issues.

One thing you could do of course is use liquid carbon. eg http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/neutro-co2-medium-p-6377.html

For your tank just dose 5ml every 24 hours. As well as feeding plants does have slight anti-algae properties, can be used to remove BBA and other algae off hardscape etc. In my experience using both CO2 (from cylinder) and liquid carbon leads to great plant growth and algae free tank. So much so, that it was obvious when I forgot to liquid carbon dose regularly, the plants (and slight algae told me) I got a dosing pump to automatically dose every day.


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## Martin296 (5 Sep 2014)

I was growing vallis but they have just melted and died after the rescape. So pulled them out and gone for a selection of amazon swords.
I do have slight algae on the glass now, and a tiny amount of hair algae on some higher plants - which the shrimp seem to love.

maybe stopping the DIY co2 feed, and just try liquids would work? at least until next month when I can afford a reg and to top up my co2 bottle?


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## ian_m (5 Sep 2014)

Check your shrimps are not sensitive to liquid carbon.


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## Martin296 (5 Sep 2014)

I have yanato in the big tank... never thought about them tbh. I could fish them out and put them in my other tank. so that not a problem really.


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## MatTheFish (5 Sep 2014)

ian_m said:


> Original research was in US gallons.
> 
> Anyway the chart below from http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=105774 is a rough handy guide to light level.
> 
> ...



Hi,

Sorry to hijack the thread. I'm after similar info myself.

My tank is 71L x 51W x 65H cm. From top of gravel to water level it's 48CM in height and from gravel to T5 bulb about 50CM. I have 2 x Juwel T5 28w HighLight bulbs. Total 56w. Both bulbs have the Juwel reflectors on them.

I don't understand that graph myself. Would you mind telling me where my lighting would be on that scale please? i.e low/medium/high and WPG.

Thanks for any help.


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## ian_m (5 Sep 2014)

MatTheFish said:


> Would you mind telling me where my lighting would be on that scale please


Bulb to bottom is 20" (50cm). Thus assuming 1 tube with reflectors is medium light (65par), therefore with two tubes is 130par and high light region. Lots of assumptions though,  I think Juwel are high output T5's (as opposed to normal T5's), you are using a reflector, tubes are not worn out etc.

Really just to be used as an indicator as to how much attention you should pay to the tank and if CO2 is a necessity.


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## MatTheFish (5 Sep 2014)

Yeah just wanted a rough guide, as been trying my best to get some information and one source told me i'd probably get to plant low light, another said medium light and another high light.

I would like to go for medium plants mainly with a one or to highlight plants probably (. Yeah it's only a few months old the tank so brand new bulbs and the new shape juwel reflectors. I will be getting pressurised co2 and EI dosing aswell with eco complete fine, so many options on susbtrates but eco complete being high in CEC i think it's called with EI and some root tabs and maybe some laterite under the eco complete it will hold on to the nutrients i add via EI pretty well as i understand. Yes i think Juwels are HO bulbs but they juse the word HighLight instead, i guess anyway.

So from the info you gave me, thanks for that! I can assume i will be able to plant medium-to-high plants ?

I do get some algae now with my two 9000K day bulbs, mainly in centre of tank where light is strongest and some on front and back glass, it's like green dots here and there and sometimes dusty looking mainly just a little in the corners tbf, no real plants in there mind so nothing competing with the algae.

Thanks!


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## Martin296 (6 Sep 2014)

Well I popped my new lighting hood on last night...

doesnt seem to illuminate the tank half as well as the T8's did.
However, this might be beacuse the one tube is an unknown "white" tube, and the other is an unknown "plantgro" tube which is pink looking in colour.

With just the hood lit the tank looks dark and dull. with the T8's lit too (which have x2 Juwel daylight tubes) the tank is amazingly lit. But after talking with guys on here, its going to be too much light  

I am thinking of getting some frogbit (HYDROCHARIS MORSUS-RANAE) to help with shading the aquarium - what do you guys think?

Do you think the Pond Solutions hood just has rubbish reflectors? or rubbish tubes? heres a link to one I have; http://www.allpondsolutions.co.uk/a...ing/silver-t5-fish-tank-lights-two-bulbs.html


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## MatTheFish (6 Sep 2014)

mate i had frogbit in mine and is brilliant at absorbing nitrates and for shading, i saw a few recommendations on using frogbit in fact when starting a planted tank to help compete with any algae. It was the only live plant i had in my tank but grew like wildfire, new shoots every few days, i was giving bunches of the stuff away up until last week until i got rid of it all ready for a proper planted tank.

You may also want to look at iquaticsonline as they do pendant/controller kits for aquariums at good prices i believe and customizable. Not sure about the allpondsolutions hood etc hopefully someone else can help you on that.


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## Martin296 (6 Sep 2014)

I also like the way frogbit roots too. Thinking they'd be ideal for my rams.


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## MatTheFish (6 Sep 2014)

yeah some of my fish nipped at the roots of the frogbit which was ok with me as they kept them trimmed. My two Angelfish was the worst at eating the roots. I have a GBR and doesn't bother him if I have it in tank or not.


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## Martin296 (8 Sep 2014)

Well, I've done some work...

Now I'm only running my twin T5 light unit. Feel a lot better now I know I'm back down the top low/medium lighting range.
This is the reason why I had so many problems;

Before;





After;




With lighting leg on;




Without lighting legs on - this is my preferred position;




Much Much better, thanks for the advice people....


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## ian_m (8 Sep 2014)

Its very easy to wonder accidentally into higher light scenarios without realising it.

My mate has a tank with a single T8 tube, tank maybe 25years old now (steel framed, remember those) in which he keeps a few fish and slow growing plants, generally replacing plants every couple of months as they don't really grow just stay steady. Never had any algae issues.

One day the tube ballast failed, possible due to water ingress along cables from 25 year old crumbling T8 tube holders. Decided to replace with equivalent length T5 tube, got a couple of water proof tube holders from Ebay and T5 tube and ballast from electrical supplier. Fantastic tank was much brighter, plants went ballistic, cutting away every week...then it all went pear shaped, as I assume the plants scoffed all the food supply, melted away and algae started appearing on plant remains, glass hardscape in fact every where.

Quick consult me and verified he had moved from low light to higher medium which explained his issues.

Sorted by turning light period down, frosted piece of plastic on top of tank cover sheet to reduce light level and 1/4 dose dosing liquid carbon and 1/4 dose EI ferts (borrowed from me ). Quite chuffed as didn't cost a lot to fix (£9.99 for carbon, free fertz). Anyway no algae seen, plants now grow a bit, compared to T8 tube and tank looks much better in brighter light especially the green plants.


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## Martin296 (8 Sep 2014)

Well I'm hoping I've not drifted too far up.
Its a semi-low tech tank - aquatic compost topped with sand, 1 BPS co2 (DIY), Tropica fert (Waiting for it to run out), and now twin T5 (38w) tubes 
Not growing anything too high demand, however I was thinking of growing E.Aflame which might have to be knocked on the head being a red plant.

Just need to get my co2 reg and decent fert, and I'll be as happy as a pig in muck


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## ian_m (8 Sep 2014)

Martin296 said:


> E.Aflame which might have to be knocked on the head being a red plant


And what has the colour of the plant leaves got to do with anything ?


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## Martin296 (8 Sep 2014)

Well this is the one I want...

http://paratusplants.co.uk/echinodorus-aflame-p-60.html

It says "high light" so worry my lighting might actually be too dull for it


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