# Changing my tank too dirt.



## fisherkeepeer_z (19 Aug 2012)

Hi all, ive just registered on the forum!

I currently have a 100 gallon fully matured/stocked for around a year.

I am going to change my tank from the crap pea gravel to dirt, i ordered john innes no.3 as ive heard this is okay for the aquarium, i did order Westland but they never had that brand in stock so have sent Levington is there any difference in the two does anybody know?

I am going to soak the soil and do the process for around 2-3 days to try and suppress the ammonia spike the soil will do in my tank. Will be ammonia spike be a high ppm? I have ordered ammo lock just incase of any very high spikes aswell as more plants ontop of the plants currently in the aquarium which is a good amount which should/hopefully suck every up.

I am going to cap the soil with the current pea gravel i have and the fish will have a temporary home or two 80 litre dustbins.

Is there any tips, hunts or actions i should/need to do or anyone would recommend?
Thank you in advance.


----------



## BigTom (19 Aug 2012)

Exepct John Innes 3 to push up your pH and water hardness considerably - this may or may not be an issue depending on whether you have any obligate soft water fish. The ammonia leaching may go on for several weeks as well, so keep an eye on that and be prepared for regular, large water changes. I'd definitely also recommend adding a large number of floating plants (Amazon frogit and _Lemna minor_ are good choices, although you may never get rid of the latter!). as they'll be able to process the ammonia faster than most submerged plants. 

Other than that, just make sure you're happy with your planting before filling, as you want as little disturbance to the substrate as possible after that.

Oh, and expect a lot of tannins from the soil as well.


----------



## fisherkeepeer_z (19 Aug 2012)

hmm dont really want my ph moving alot as the altercations between my ph tap water and the fish tank water will end up shocking my fish too much.

My tap water ph is neutral.

The ammonia leaching problem i should have backed up with water changes and ammonia remover i have alot of floating plants already such as hornwot and duck weed covering most of the top of my tank but maybe i should get more.

the ph is a big problem though :/


----------



## BigTom (19 Aug 2012)

Whilst it's hard to say exactly what your pH will end up at, I'd hazard a rough guess that it'll be in the 7.3-7.8 bracket if using JI 3, with a TDS bump of about 100-200ppm on top of whatever's in your water. Obviously this will depend on frequency of water changes and how much soil you use.

Also, see my post in this thread about alternatives - http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=23004


----------



## fisherkeepeer_z (19 Aug 2012)

Aslong as its within 7-8 my ph i think that would be okay.
I could add peat ontop of the soil to maybe bring it to 7-7.5?
I have heard of TDS but never actually looked into it..is there a dangerous level?
Would you recommend me buying apparatus to measure tds or anything else in the aquarium?
I have a GH and kh, ph aswell as ammonia etc test kits.

The ammonia problem also..i really dont want to risk any deaths of my fish which i know may be hard in this situation. Will my mature filter and lots of plants benefit? My tank is fully stocked at the moment so i am guessing my filters can manage quite a high amount of ammonia. I am going to soak the soil for a few days which i hope helps to get rid of anything unwanted or should i forget soaking..does it make much difference at all? Is there anything else i can do to help the soil be safe for my fish and water columns.

I am not so to speak worried about the ammonia spike as i will be there to do water changes and i have ammo lock to remove all ammonia.



I have seen the blue bag soil before, would this be a better substrate to use?
The aqua soil is abit more expensive than John Innes but if it is safer with the ph and ammonia i would prefer that..is it a good nutrient full soil? Aswell just to cross reference is 1 litre for 1 gallon correct.

Thank you.


----------



## BigTom (19 Aug 2012)

fisherkeepeer_z said:
			
		

> Aslong as its within 7-8 my ph i think that would be okay.
> I could add peat ontop of the soil to maybe bring it to 7-7.5?



Most compost mixes will already contain a large amount of peat (see here - http://www.gardeningdata.co.uk/soil/joh ... _innes.php), so you'd need to be pretty generous with adding more to see much effect I think.



> I have heard of TDS but never actually looked into it..is there a dangerous level?
> Would you recommend me buying apparatus to measure tds or anything else in the aquarium?
> I have a GH and kh, ph aswell as ammonia etc test kits.



To be honest, I'm not too hot on what test kits are considered worthwhile. I have a Hanna combined pH/TDS meter as my only piece of testing apparatus, which gives me a general idea of what is going on. You can roughly convert TDS (in ppm) to gH by dividing by 18, although they measure slightly different things. As long as the levels don't hugely exceed the acceptable range for your fish then it should be OK - check somewhere like Seriously Fish species profiles if you're unsure of what's best for your fish.



> The ammonia problem also..i really dont want to risk any deaths of my fish which i know may be hard in this situation. Will my mature filter and lots of plants benefit? My tank is fully stocked at the moment so i am guessing my filters can manage quite a high amount of ammonia. I am going to soak the soil for a few days which i hope helps to get rid of anything unwanted or should i forget soaking..does it make much difference at all? Is there anything else i can do to help the soil be safe for my fish and water columns.



Having mature filters and plenty of healthy growing plants, especially floaters, will definitely help. It should be manageable, but will need monitoring. Do a google search for 'mineralised topsoil' if you want to put the effort into minimising any ammonia spike. 



> I have seen the blue bag soil before, would this be a better substrate to use?
> The aqua soil is abit more expensive than John Innes but if it is safer with the ph and ammonia i would prefer that..is it a good nutrient full soil?



Alastair is using this to good effect in his low tech tank, and reported it didn't mess with his water parameters too much. See his journal here - http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=21327[/quote]



> Aswell just to cross reference is 1 litre for 1 gallon correct.



Erm, no idea. Depends how deep you want it and the tank dimensions - just work out the volume of tank that you want to be taken up by soil.



> Thank you.



You're welcome!


----------



## fisherkeepeer_z (19 Aug 2012)

ah okay, so if i do decide to use john innes..putting a layer of mineralised topsoil ontop would reduce the spike? Okay will have a look through the topic.


----------



## BigTom (19 Aug 2012)

The idea would be to mineralise all the John Innes, so that the organic matter (which is largely what produces the ammonia leaching) is broken down before going into the tank.

Never tried it personally though - quite time consuming and messy by all accounts.


----------



## fisherkeepeer_z (19 Aug 2012)

oh i understand i did look into that one time and it seems you loose quite alot doing so.
I really am stuck on what to do really


----------



## BigTom (19 Aug 2012)

Out of interest, what fish do you keep?


----------



## fisherkeepeer_z (19 Aug 2012)

I keep a community tank with a few chiclids.

1 Angelfish
1 Severum
6 Rainbow Chiclids
13 Black Phantoms
6 Sunset Platies
2 Synodontis euptera

Its a shame i am really bad at making decisions.


----------



## BigTom (19 Aug 2012)

OK, not fish I have much experience with but a quick google suggests most of those should be reasonably adaptable to hardish water, except maybe the sev and angel. 

Maybe consider rehoming those two fish and use a mix of John Innes and the blue aquasoil and you'll probably be OK I would think.


----------



## fisherkeepeer_z (19 Aug 2012)

Sounds silly but i wouldn't want to re home them fish as i have had them for nearly two years and have built a great bond with them. I have another tank big enough for the angel but not the severum.

If i am getting the soil it would be one or the other, it would be a great disappointment if i cannot have john innes with these fish.


----------



## BigTom (19 Aug 2012)

Well, up to you on the rehoming really - I just have no idea how adaptable those two are likely to be. 

Your other option here is to go with the John Innes but buy some cheap sand to mix it with - a 50/50 mix of sand and compost would keep everything reasonably lean, reduce the ammonia and water buffering and still give you a pretty nutritious substrate for your plants.

Also, if you are able to change your order then ordering John Innes 1 or 2 instead of 3 might be good - same soil mix but with less added fertilisers - http://www.gardeningdata.co.uk/soil/joh ... _innes.php


----------



## fisherkeepeer_z (19 Aug 2012)

Any specific sand? Ive just ordered some CaribSea Tahitian Moon Black Sand to cap it with.
But if i need to buy anything you can suggest to mix the soil with which will lower the ph even more.
I am thinking though the ph wont raise much from what i currently have.


----------



## BigTom (19 Aug 2012)

You could add some extra peat to the soil, and then just mix it in roughly equal quantities with any cheap lime-free grit (worth washing this first to get rid of dust). Should be available from just about any garden centre, or you can even use play sand from Argos if you have one nearby.


----------



## Alastair (19 Aug 2012)

Hiya, as Tom said the John innes can ramp up the ph and gh quite a fair bit, where as the pond aqua soil contains no limestone in it so has little impact on raising the levels but still has really agood nutrient base.
I tested the pond soil for over a week and levels stayed the same as what they went in at.  I'd suggest what tom mentioned and if you really want the John innes ( which I'd not)  use half the John innes and half the pond aqua soil. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Morgan Freeman (19 Aug 2012)

I'd advise against John Innes 3 it will send your hardness levels skyward.


----------



## foxfish (19 Aug 2012)

Tom has already given you lots of sound advice but I might also add that using John Innes 3 is not something I would recommend.
Aqua soil is a much better bet but search for Troi's post about using soil.... here is one viewtopic.php?f=35&t=22651


----------



## fisherkeepeer_z (20 Aug 2012)

Thanks for all the information.

I have ordered 50 liters of the aqua soil, the john innes is still on the way to me.
A big 100 liters of it, i am going to do a 50:50 mix with root tabs capped by black sand or gravel.

I have two 80 liter dust bins on the way which hopefully will be a suitable home for my fish for the day.

I have a electronic ph pen indicator which should give me a good eye on the ph aswell as a gh and kh meter so while the soil is soaking i will test the water. Does the aqua soil need soaking?

I was thinking of soaking the john innes for a couple of days and topping up when dried out, will this process benefit anything?


----------



## Alastair (20 Aug 2012)

50 litres plus capping too??  Wow how longs the tank ha ha. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fisherkeepeer_z (20 Aug 2012)

The tank is a 100 gallon.
4x2x2, someone said to me once for dirt the rule is 1 liter per gallon
so i thought a mix of 50 litre of each soil would do..hope he was right ¬.¬
goes in the garden any extras.


----------



## C00ki3 (20 Aug 2012)

100 uk gallons = 450 litres and 100 us gallons = 390 liters, so 100 litres of substrate is way to much.

if you want 3 inches (probably somewhere about right if you presume you will have some slopes on it with higher parts etc) of dirt you would need 48inch (4foot) x 24inch (2foot) x 3 inchs = 3456 cubic inches = 56 litres roughly


----------



## fisherkeepeer_z (20 Aug 2012)

oh so ive ordered double the amount :/ looks like ill have to get planting  

Does anyone know how much kg of sand ill need to cap it with aprox 2cm.


----------



## BigTom (20 Aug 2012)

http://www.plantedtank.net/substratecalculator.html


----------



## Morgan Freeman (21 Aug 2012)

I'd advise not going deeper than an inch with the soil to prevent gas buildup. Just a thought.


----------

