# Help/Advice - Major plant issue/melt :(



## Rob P (4 Jan 2014)

Well, where do I start? Can't believe what i'm seeing today...

I can give more details if needed but in a nutshell - set tank up end of August, no pressurised co2, too much light, wrong ferts, algae issues. Cue reduced lighting, injected co2 (mid October), find UKAPS, Clive intervention, lots of changes, bigger filter & big rear spray bar (3 weeks ago). Start on EI 2 weeks ago. Plants growing well, seeing a reduction in algae. Regular trim of plants due to good growth. All looks good.

I've come home tonight, half of my plants have translucent leaves, loose leaves floating around everywhere, plants look real unhappy/curled up, must have fished 40+ free floating leaves out. Tank looks bare! Can't believe what i'm seeing.

All I can think right now/all that's changed:

Twinstar Nano added last Saturday.
Filter cleaned last Friday. Bag of Purigen recharged recently (bleached and rinsed well) and reinserted yesterday, along with a new filter floss.

Fish seem happy, flow and co2 is good (did a PH profile Wednesday and getting 1 point drop from lights on til lights off).

What the hell has happened? Some plants seem totally unaffected but some have literally fallen apart in a day (Ludwigia glandulosa and couple of spieces of Hygro). I'm leaning towards bleach left in the Purigen but fish seem totally unaffected.

Can anyone give me any idea what may have happened?

Rob


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## MirandaB (4 Jan 2014)

sorry to hear this Rob,after all your hard work it's just not fair did you do an ammonia test on the purigen in some water before you put it back in?


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## Rob P (4 Jan 2014)

Hi Miranda, i know it sucks 

The hygro polysperma, siamensis and ludwigia are practically stripped back to bare stems this morning. Other plants seem ok. Fish are well.

I didn't test the purigen, i did read up on the whole recharging process and all pointed to if you could smell bleach to do a test. Mine didn't wiff so just put it back in. Tbh was slightly nervous about it. Do you think it could be the cause having not affected the fish and other plants?


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## MirandaB (4 Jan 2014)

I wouldn't like to say Rob but to me it seems a possibility as the melt happened after you did that  I don't like the idea of recharging the Purigen although I know it's supposed to be perfectly fine so I just buy a new bag of it.
If you think about it,when there is ammonia in a fish tank you can't actually smell it either as the amounts are small but still enough to affect livestock etc.
I would do an ammonia test on the tank just to rule it out if nothing else.


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## Rob P (4 Jan 2014)

Ammonia test done on tank and no reading. (disclaimer-hobby grade kit lol).

Not sure if I should remove purigen and put some carbon in perhaps? Or am I barking up the wrong tree?


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## tim (4 Jan 2014)

Hi rob, I'm sure ammonia would affect livestock before your plants, I think I've read plants can utilise ammonia, your ph profile though shouldn't it be a 1 point drop by lights on holding steady until just before lights off ? Plants shedding leaves is classic co2 or distribution issues, maybe your increased plant mass has hampered flow to the lower levels of the tank.


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## MirandaB (4 Jan 2014)

Rob P said:


> Ammonia test done on tank and no reading. (disclaimer-hobby grade kit lol).
> 
> Not sure if I should remove purigen and put some carbon in perhaps? Or am I barking up the wrong tree?


 
That's ruled that possibility out anyway.



tim said:


> Hi rob, I'm sure ammonia would affect livestock before your plants, I think I've read plants can utilise ammonia, your ph profile though shouldn't it be a 1 point drop by lights on holding steady until just before lights off ? Plants shedding leaves is classic co2 or distribution issues, maybe your increased plant mass has hampered flow to the lower levels of the tank.


 

Tim would it cause such devastation in so short a space of time?


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## tim (4 Jan 2014)

[quote="MirandaB,

Tim would it cause such devastation in so short a space of time?[/quote]

Possibly not, but the signs don't always show until it's too late sometimes with stem plants, it does seem extreme.


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## Manrock (4 Jan 2014)

Sorry to hear of your stem crash. How are the non-stem plants looking? Do you run/have a powerhead Rob? I found it was possibly the best bit of 'extra' kit I ever bought. Gets the circulation of CO2 and nutrients to most parts of the tank.


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## Rob P (4 Jan 2014)

Thanks for replies. Tim i don't think it's down to plant mass i really don't have that many and as I've trimmed and replanted I've also cut out some unsightly bits so increases in mass as such have been minimal. My ph does drop the 1 point by lights on and hold steady throughout lighting period?

Flow is good, it's a good thing about the Twinstar in that you can certainly see distribution well lol. And the affected plants are definitely in areas of good flow, co2 injected by inline diffuser and bubbles run down front glass and along the bottom.

Really did just happen in a day spectacularly. Anyway, I've cut out all the rubbish bits and saved what i can. Removed the purigen and put some carbon in just in case. 

Guess the main thing is the fish are happy. Lovely showing of my rainbows last night as if to rub it in a little!

Should i redo the purigen in another 24hr prime soak/rinse and try it again?


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## Rob P (4 Jan 2014)

Manrock said:


> Sorry to hear of your stem crash. How are the non-stem plants looking? Do you run/have a powerhead Rob? I found it was possibly the best bit of 'extra' kit I ever bought. Gets the circulation of CO2 and nutrients to most parts of the tank.



I was running a Koralia 900 but took it out when i put the tetratec 1200 in as it didn't seem necessary. I have to say i have good movement on all plants using a centrally mounted 60cm rear spray bar (80cm tank) and as mentioned co2 is diffused from this.

That's minimal damage to some Rotala but it's really just the ludwig and hygro that have taken a kicking. I have some hygro pinni which looks fine and some bacopa that I'm undecided on (certainly not blown up like the obviously affected stuff). All these plants are in amongst each other so just weird really!!

Anyway, off to look for some nice wood near Castle Howard now and if anyone is trimming their tanks this weekend please don't throw cuttings away as i need some more plants!!


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## NatureBoy (4 Jan 2014)

...I reckon it's that twinstar!

In all seriousness I recall you said you'd had a bit of a CO2 fluctuation / increases surface agitation...I reckon this is a CO2 / flow type of issue...


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## Rob P (4 Jan 2014)

Well the Twinstar does off gas the co2 quicker/more thoroughly over night, but the latest ph profile was done after all changes (as i always do).


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## kirk (4 Jan 2014)

Is there any possibility that your timer has stuck on and light have been on constantly? I've has 4 timers in 12 mths let me down do not by the cheap Tesco ones.


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## Rob P (6 Jan 2014)

kirk said:


> Is there any possibility that your timer has stuck on and light have been on constantly? I've has 4 timers in 12 mths let me down do not by the cheap Tesco ones.


 
Hi Kirk, lights are TMC grobeams with an Aquaray controller so no dodgy time clocks involved. CO2 solenoid is on a timer but it's been perfectly fine, been double checking everything!!

I really can't belive it's flow/co2, and if it is not to such major effect so quickly. The tank is 80cm/125L with a long rear spraybar (60cm) flowing across the top and down the front powered by a tetratec ex1200. I can clearly see a wall of bubbles flowing down the front glass and distributed back around the tank/all over. It's not a heavily planted tank by any means.

Did another ph profile yesterday which points to all being ok?

PH before injection is 7.5/7.6 so it's a good drop by 3pm and stays pretty constant! (lights on at 2.50pm ramping up to a maximum of 26% over 60 minutes, ramp down starts 9.00pm).



Observation over the weekend does look as if almost stems have been affected in one way or another  Just some more spectactularly than others (which have had to be removed). I've left the less affected plants alone but will possibly have to trim these substantially if they don't improve. Have added another pot of Ludwigia and some Hygro guianensis bought from lfs at the weekend so will see how we go from here.

Totally baffled, but still leaning towards purigen recharge/bleach (now removed and carbon in for a while).


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## ian_m (6 Jan 2014)

Here is my list of reasons for plant wipe out I have experienced...

- Timer failure leading to lights being on 24/7.
- Too much Excel/Liquid Carbon.
- Failure for put in any macro fertiliser due to timer failure on dosing pump. (micro continued OK).

Strangely some plants appeared to be affected instantly and never recovered, just melted away, even the unaffected parts eventually melted, yet other plants carried on as if nothing happened.


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## harryH (6 Jan 2014)

It would be great to have the views of one of the specialist (Clive etc) on this as there is obviuosly a serious imbalance going on in the OP's tank.

I used to live close to Berti Gesting and often visited him at his shop. Bertie wrote a very informative booklet Nature and Aquarium of which I still have a copy for occasional reference. He does state quite categorically that too much oxygen is bad for the planted tank and warns against any form of air pump or spraybar that over agitates the water surface. His reasons given are that water exposed to air in this way absorbes so much oxygen that elements that are taken up by plants in their bivalent form (eg Fe2) become trivelent (fe3) and can no longer be absorbed by the plants. He states all oxygen in the aquarium should be provided by plants only and should not exceed 8 mgs/ltr.
Furthermore he says the use of activated filter carbon in the planted tank is an "biological nonsense" as 'cations' vital plant nutrients are taken out.

I just find things a little confusing as I understand the modern day procedures do advise some surface agitation and that many today seem to use carbon on occasions.

I must stress the above views are from the book mentioned and not mine, though I have tried to adhere to them over the years.


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## dw1305 (6 Jan 2014)

Hi all,





harryH said:


> He does state quite categorically that too much oxygen is bad for the planted tank and warns against any form of air pump or spraybar that over agitates the water surface. His reasons given are that water exposed to air in this way absorbes so much oxygen that elements that are taken up by plants in their bivalent form (eg Fe2) become trivelent (fe3) and can no longer be absorbed by the plants. He states all oxygen in the aquarium should be provided by plants only and should not exceed 8 mgs/ltr.


 But our knowledge has moved on, and this isn't true, although we used to believe all sorts of similar things.

I started keeping fish in the 1970's when most people never changed any tank water, because "aged tank water" had all sorts of magical properties. It wasn't true then, and all it meant was that we forced our life-stock to live in an ammonia rich organic soup until they eventually (or normally rapidly in my case) expired.

If you are interested in ferric and ferrous iron within the tank I'd recommend the "Sceptical Aquarist", very good on all aquarium chemistry questions <Iron transformations | The Skeptical Aquarist>

cheers Darrel


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## darren636 (6 Jan 2014)

Anecdotal I know, but my low tech jungle is happier with maximum surface agitation, so are ze fish


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## Rob P (7 Jan 2014)

Well I've just done a 20 minute makeover... Had to lol. 

Appears that nearly every stem in the tank has been affected  at first it was the obvious hygros and ludwigia that looked no hopers as they'd gone within a day. But was dubious about the others and they've continued to melt away. Looks like a continuation of last weeks 'incident' rather than a current problem. 

The new pot of hygro guanensis and ludwigua glandulosa planted Sunday look fine while the existing plants continue to deteriorate so think I'll bite the bullet and get a few more pots to replace dying stuff and get plant stock back up. 

What a carry on!


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## darren636 (7 Jan 2014)

Gotta larf , eh?  this hobby is a wind up!


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## Rob P (7 Jan 2014)

Feels like it at times mate, good to have a sense of humour about these things though  drive you mad otherwise.


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## James O (7 Jan 2014)

All the best with this Rob.  Wish I knew more so I could add something more useful


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## Rob P (7 Jan 2014)

Ah it's ok James, live and learn eh? Still think it's the bleach, i read of a similar incident someone else who'd recharged purigen had had, except he'd lost fish and plants. Was paranoid the fish were acting differently after putting it back in and I've tried bleaching some plants to clear them of algae a fair while back and they melted soon afterwards, effect was identical.

At least this tank's just for messing around with, rather learn about nasty surprises before getting going on the new optiwhite


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## dw1305 (8 Jan 2014)

Hi all,





Rob P said:


> Some plants seem totally unaffected but some have literally fallen apart in a day (Ludwigia glandulosa and couple of spieces of Hygro)





Rob P said:


> Still think it's the bleach, i read of a similar incident someone else who'd recharged purigen had had, except he'd lost fish and plants. Was paranoid the fish were acting differently after putting it back in and I've tried bleaching some plants to clear them of algae a fair while back and they melted soon afterwards, effect was identical.


 My suspicion would be the bleach as well. Sodium hypochlorite bleach is a really powerful biocide, and oxidising agent, so you only need a trace to de-nature chlorophyll.





> It is estimated that there are about 3300 accidents needing hospital treatment caused by sodium hypochlorite solutions each year in British homes (RoSPA, 2002)


 Personally I'm not a great fan, if it was a new product now it would never get any-where near the consumer now. 

cheers Darrel


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## Rob P (8 Jan 2014)

The plants with bigger root structures (couple of Crypts, large Sags etc) look unaffected. All the stems with small roots/delicate leafs have bitten the bullet. I'd say ALL were affected, holes in leaves, leaves going translucent, black spots and/or turning to mush. Most are taken out now  But some new additions in and will add a couple more pots to bulk back up with 

Feel a moan at seachem coming on as I followed the recharge instructions and was even over compensating of their instructions! (not soaked in bleach as long, extra rinses, stronger prime soak etc etc). Won't get me anywhere I know, but may make me feel better


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## dw1305 (8 Jan 2014)

Hi all,





Rob P said:


> The plants with bigger root structures (couple of Crypts, large Sags etc) look unaffected


 I don't think it is the root structure that has made a difference, my suspicion would be that the plants that survived have a much tougher, more resistant epidermis and this has stopped the bleach coming in contact with the mesophyll layer (where the chloroplasts etc. are). 

cheers Darrel


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## harryH (8 Jan 2014)

Hi all,
Just hope Rob gets his tank sorted.
Purigen recharge may well be the problem but the only reservation I would have is that there are so many people using and re charging this product without these complications.
It's one of these things that can really be a curse, knowing exactly what is wrong.
I always find the best way forward is to change as little as possible and eliminate things one by one where you can. For example, do away with the Purigen for now or just use another NEW pack after a huge water change. Re plant some of the exact same species as the ones that melted and if they grow then it's near certain the recharged stuff was to blame, but if they melt then you're looking elsewhere.


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## Rob P (8 Jan 2014)

harryH said:


> Purigen recharge may well be the problem but the only reservation I would have is that there are so many people using and re charging this product without these complications.


 
Yeh but it could just be me being rubbish at all this  lol


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## darren636 (8 Jan 2014)

Did you soak the purigen in dechlor?


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## harryH (8 Jan 2014)

Rob P said:


> Yeh but it could just be me being rubbish at all this  lol


 
Not at all Rob and I certainly wouldn't like to give the impression I thought that.
There isn't a man who has kept a fish tank who hasn't encountered problems.
It's always easiest and best to change things one by one until you find the problem. I have lost it in the past by changing a number of things and not knowing which one it was that solved the issue


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## Rob P (8 Jan 2014)

darren636 said:


> Did you soak the purigen in dechlor?


 
Soaked in 1:1 water/plain bleach for about 8 hours (i'd only had it 2 months so wasn't that dirty), then rinsed like fury under tap water until i was bored. Soaked in a tub with a solution measured out in a cup, 2 tbps prime/water. Left in that for over 24 hours. Well rinsed again. No wiff of bleach I could tell. Back into filter with a new floss pad in the evening.

Did notice a lot of the fish swimming up against the glass quite soon afterwards which I thought was odd, but happens occasionally (not en masse like this time though if i'm honest...). But seemed to settle down quite quickly. Thought I was being paranoid.

Following day come home from work, boom!! Bits of plant everywhere lol.

Purigen out, carbon put in.


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## darren636 (8 Jan 2014)

Ah, glass surfing


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## Rob P (8 Jan 2014)

Yup, amazing I haven't killed all my fish yet!


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## darren636 (8 Jan 2014)

Rob P said:


> Yup, amazing I haven't killed all my fish yet!


  plenty of time


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## Rob P (8 Jan 2014)

darren636 said:


> plenty of time


 
 ....... lol


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## Chrisintheuk (11 Jan 2014)

Sorry for your loss! I had a similar experience recently when I cleaned my lily pipes for the first time in a bleach solution (regular household thick bleach) letting soak for about twenty minutes then flushed with tap water for about 5 minutes and dried off as best as possible with kitchen towels. I didn't have pipe brushes to really scrub inside the pipes and didn't soak in conditioner either. Reinstalled and got things running again. Next morning my alternanthera reineckii mini was obliterated and bits of leaf everywhere except on the plant! Other plants seemed unaffected. Ammonia test showed a non-zero reading so big water changes for the next couple of days and everything has been fine since then. Luckily nothing other than plants in there....


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