# 27 litre scape - "Bearing new fruit"



## Steve Smith (8 Apr 2008)

Hey all.  Had this little tank going for a few weeks now.  Found a lovely little bit of redmoor at my LFS and had to have it.  Cost me about Â£1.10!

Setup:

Superfish Aqua 40 - 27 litre (My first ever fish tank!)
11w PC
Eco-Complete Substrate

Edit: (Ferts to be re-fudged...)

This picture is just after getting it setup.  I plant to plant more Eleocharis further back, but I'm trying to decide if I want to go with a longer variety in the back right.  Not sure if it would work.  (The narrow java at the back was there to provide a little extra cover while the endlers settled in, its gone now).







Planting:

Eleocharis Acicularis
Weeping Moss (Vesicularia ferriei - Not 100% on this)

Fish are tiny Leopard Endlers and 6 Yamato/Amano shrimp.  I plan to add some cherries soon too.  The livebearers are the inspiration for the scape name   I found out yesterday I have 2 tiny fry swimming about in the hair grass.  They're very cute looking!

Anyhow, the eleocharis has filled out quite nicely after a few weeks of growth.  Its still a little thin but getting a little height and looks very nice   I'm also having hair algae problems at the moment.  The wood is covered in the stuff.  I have what I think are diatoms on the glass too.  Also got some plants floating in there at the moment which are waiting to go somewhere else.  So no updated pics as yet.  I plan on adding pressurised CO2, but I've ordered some Flourish Excel also (which I'll use on another setup too).

Hoping to add some cherries as I said earlier, but maybe a couple of ottos temporarily.  I will be buying a group this week for my large tank (to add to the 2 I have to increase the social group).  I'll pinch two for this tank for a while and see how they get on


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## ceg4048 (8 Apr 2008)

Wow Steve, that's nice. Reminds me of the open Serengeti with the occasional Acacia tree. Personally I'd prefer keep the same Eleocharis species across the "Plain". Maybe you could just build up the substrate height some more in the back instead of adding a taller version.  8) 

Cheers,


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## Steve Smith (8 Apr 2008)

Thats a good idea   I have probably just the right amount kicking about in that little 1.5 litre nano that these guys used to be in


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## ulster exile (8 Apr 2008)

Looks really nice Steve!  Bit of a bargain on the wood front too (git  ) 

Just curious, presumably you've taken the original hood off the tank to have the PC on there?


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## Steve Smith (8 Apr 2008)

Yep, thats correct   The 36w PC is quite long, but fits diagonally front to back.  Original hood had an 11w tube which was a bit crap.  I also found a sheet of glass at work which is a good fit for the top to try and alleviate the evapouration problems I've been having (quite warm water combined with warm PC light - I was topping up mid week).

I'm going to replace the filter with the Eden 501 external clone I have on my 54 litre low light crypt livebearer scape.  I want to get a larger filter for that tank so it would free up the clone for this tank which will do a better job than the Fluval 1+ in this one.


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## Arana (8 Apr 2008)

Very nice Steve, great idea  should develop nicely but it is missing 1 thing... More pictures!!!


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## TDI-line (8 Apr 2008)

Wow, awesome setup.


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## Themuleous (8 Apr 2008)

Like the tree idea  the hairgrass is perfect for the grass lawn.

Sam


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## ceg4048 (8 Apr 2008)

Steve,
         Just now reviewed your tank stats. Do you really have 36 watts T5 power compact over a 7 gallon tank?  Then, it looks like you are dosing TPN+ and TPN? TPN is just trace element, while TPN+ is traces with NPK added so why double up on traces in lieu of NPK? I must be reading that incorrectly... :?: 

If you are getting hair algae already it's a sure bet that your CO2 is inadequate, which wouldn't be surprising considering the amount of light low biomass and lack of fast growers. You may want to consider doubling or even trebling your water change frequency.  

Cheers,


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## Steve Smith (8 Apr 2008)

Yah, I should of worded that better, "TPN + Trace", asin TPN and Trace.  Edited the post to read a little easier   Do you think I should maybe reduce trace to 1/16th twice a week?

I see what you're saying about the light.  I wasn't really sure if it would be too much.  In hind sight I think I will shorten the lighting period "a smidge" and do as you suggest and increase the water changes.  

CO2 is non-existent at the moment.  I hope to add pressurised CO2 soon, but untill then I will be dosing Excel (though not started yet as waiting for it to arrive).

I had pondered going back to the 11w light in the hood at first, but I thought this would be too little light.  Any thoughts no this?


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## ceg4048 (8 Apr 2008)

Well, I'd certainly stick the 11 watt bulb in there until I got the CO2 sorted. Even if you lower the photoperiod with 36W the fact is that while the lamp is on the plants cannot photosynthesize properly if there is insufficient CO2. Therefore a smidgen reduction in photperiod with 36W only means a smidgen reduction in algae. Once CO2 is up and running you will need significant CO2 concentration as well as the Excel addition to keep the plants happy with a 36 watt T5, so this is a serious problem in my opinion.

Ummm..I guess I'm still confused about the TPN  TPN by definition is only a Trace element mix. The product having Trace elements combined with macro nutrients is called "TPN+". If you are only dosing the product identified as "TPN" (without the plus sign) then you are only dosing Trace elements. You need to dose the product called "TPN+" (with the plus sign) which gives you macros (NPK) and traces. Does that make any sense? Blame Tropica for the moronic product designation  

Cheers,


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## Steve Smith (9 Apr 2008)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Ummm..I guess I'm still confused about the TPN  TPN by definition is only a Trace element mix. The product having Trace elements combined with macro nutrients is called "TPN+". If you are only dosing the product identified as "TPN" (without the plus sign) then you are only dosing Trace elements.
> Cheers,



Oh  man, I thought TPN was NPK and TPN+ was NPK and Trace.     

I guess I'll be revising that too


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## ceg4048 (9 Apr 2008)

Yeah, with 5WPG you'd better get some NPK and quick mate, otherwise you'll have to change your scape name to "I Can't Bear it"...


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## Ray (9 Apr 2008)

TPN+ is a magic all in one solution in a bottle - I don't think you need to dose anything else.

On my 25L with 13w PC light with reflector I dose TPN+ weekly and Easycarbo daily at maximum dose and I'm still getting Green Spot  Algae on my crypts (but not the Vallais or the Java fern).  To get rid of that I would need to either add CO2 or reduce my lighting.  So yes, Clive is spot on, as usual - you will be looking at algae city if you run 36W on that tank.


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## Ray (9 Apr 2008)

TPN+ is a magic all in one solution in a bottle - if you use it you don't need to dose anything else.

On my 25L with 13w PC light with reflector I dose TPN+ weekly and Easycarbo daily at maximum dose and I'm still getting Green Spot  Algae on my crypts (but not the Vallais or the Java fern).  To get rid of that I would need to either add CO2 or reduce my lighting.  So yes, Clive is spot on, as usual - you will be looking at algae city if you run 36W on that tank.


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## beeky (9 Apr 2008)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> If you are getting hair algae already it's a sure bet that your CO2 is inadequate, which wouldn't be surprising considering the amount of light low biomass and lack of fast growers



I don't understand this. I can't see how a low biomass and lack of fast growers would make CO2 inadequate. I can however see how increasing the light would drive the plants harder thus requiring more CO2. Am I reading it wrong?


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## Steve Smith (9 Apr 2008)

Swapped out the light for the old hood with the 11w this morn, and dosed some KNO3 and KH2SO4 this morn.  Hopefully have a regulator arriving tomorrow and then need to get my FE refilled or get hold of another one.

I'm wondering about the light.  I thought that you always needed higher light on a small tank.  OK 36w might be a "tad" excessive, what about 18w?  Is this need for higher light if you are trying to grow a lot more plants then I actually am currently?  I had originally wanted to get hold of an 18w PC as I know it would fit into the hood and replace the 11w.


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## ceg4048 (9 Apr 2008)

beeky said:
			
		

> ceg4048 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



OK, here is the explanation: When a plant is healthy the direction of flow of nutrients and some NH4 is from the water column towards the plants. In turn, plant metabolism produces waste products such as proteins and carbohydrates which are ejected into the water column. These waste products are a source of carbon to the phytoplankton and bacteria. These organisms, whose populations number in the billions are an important source of NH4 reduction in our tanks. They depend on the carbon source ejected by the plants. This carbon ejection is described as Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC) which is different than Dissolved Inorganic Carbon (DIC) which only some bacteria and plankton can access. An example of DIC is CO2. Many people ignore the importance of theses critters but they do as much or more nitrification than the plants, whose NH4 uptake is attenuated by the presence of nitrate in the water column. This is why filtration in a high tech tank is so important. There is therefore a symbiotic relationship between the plants and the microorganisms in the tank. The plants convert inorganic supplies of NPK and carbon (the stuff we dose) and convert these nutrients to an organic form that the microorganisms can use in the form of proteins and carbohydrates. Additionally, photosynthesizing plants also oxygenate the water which helps the aerobic bacteria even more. These microorganisms are then able to nitrify NH4 and to compete effectively with algae who use NH4 concentrations to trigger blooms.

Low biomass means that this critical symbiotic relationship is weakened as not enough carbohydrates are being ejected to feed the bacteria crop and not enough oxygen is being dissolve to support their respiration. The tank is describes as being DOC limited which fundamentally limits the nitrifying bacterial population. Low biomass also means that not enough NH4 uptake is being performed by the plants themselves. So low biomass is a double whammy as it ultimately limits the rate of NH4 reduction, leaving more NH4 available the algal spores to sense.

A similar assessment can be made of fast growing plants. If a plant is fast growing that fundamentally means that it's NH4 uptake is (potentially) faster. This also means that it's production and ejection rate of carbohydrates into the water column would be faster. This means that it feeds the bacteria colony faster and generates higher colony population faster.

If a tank is DIC limited (low CO2) this can then translate to DOC limitation (low carbohydrates), thus dragging the entire nitrification system down and benefiting only the algae. In a high tech tank the process of nitrification is of paramount importance. If plants become carbon limited and/or nutrient limited then the flow of nutrients and NH4 is actually reversed. NH4 being leached into the water column by the plants as their cellular structure breaks down due to DIC and/or nutrient starvation makes this an algae triple whammy.

We need to perceive our tanks as a system of components - the plants being only a single component within that system. The system is fueled by our intervention of regulating light, CO2 and nutrients. If we can understand the role of the plant component we can then have a better understanding of the forces that are unleashed as a result of our plant choices and plant care.

It is specifically for the reasons given above that we see the recommendation to use high capacity filtration, to seed with mulm or detritus from an established tank and to have as many as possible fast growing plants when starting up a tank. New tank suffer terribly from lack of bacterial population in the water column as well as in the soil and filter, and the bacterial population that does develop suffers DIC starvation.

Hope this makes sense. 

Cheers,


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## Steve Smith (9 Apr 2008)

That makes lots of sense.  I think I might just re-think this whole thing and plant loads of stems for now.  CO2 will help but I doubt I'll get that setup before next week.


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## ceg4048 (9 Apr 2008)

SteveUK said:
			
		

> That makes lots of sense.  I think I might just re-think this whole thing and plant loads of stems for now.  CO2 will help but I doubt I'll get that setup before next week.



Don't lose heart mate.  It all sounds apocalyptic but your basic problem is that you've simply got too much light. As I mentioned, the entire machinery is driven by the light. Plants do not have the ability to "close the shutters" and to "not" use the light. Electro-Chemical reactions within the Chloroplast reaction chambers prevent any sort of control. Here is what I'd try:

1. Remove whatever algae you can by hand.
2. Do an 80% or more water change.
3. Immediately following, do a 3 day blackout. Blackout means zero light.    Those black plastic bin liners are pretty good for sealing all sides of the tank. If you can get your hands on NPK, dose, but only at night with no light on in the room at all.
4. At the end of the blackout do another 80% water change, dose and only use your 11 watt light until you get your CO2.
5. Did I mention you have to dose NPK without fail?

By the way, an 18 watt light bulb is exactly 4 times better for this tank than a 36 watt bulb. I know you probably feel like Alice in Wonderland tumbling down the rabbit hole? You can just accept this, take the Blue Pill and wake up in your bed tomorrow and everything will be OK. If you take the Red Pill I can explain and show you how deep the rabbit hole actually goes...  

Cheers,


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## Steve Smith (9 Apr 2008)

I have NO3, KH2SO4 and AE trace mix which I use on my main tank, along with Mg, and KH2PO4 available.


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## Ray (9 Apr 2008)

Clive, that is very interesting - you are getting better and better - I hate to think what kind of botany and bio-chemistry textbooks you must be keeping at your bedside these days!    

 :?: I think you are saying that a cycling process is important not just from the point of view of fish but also plants and not getting algae.  If I put a mature filter on a new planted tank will the bacteria population in the filter crash for want of sufficient organic carbon pollution from the plants?

 :?: I presume that turning the light down in the initial weeks is the best approach to allow things to get going slowly?



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> By the way, an 18 watt light bulb is exactly 4 times better for this tank than a 36 watt bulb. I know you probably feel like Alice in Wonderland tumbling down the rabbit hole? You can just accept this, take the Blue Pill and wake up in your bed tomorrow and everything will be OK. If you take the Red Pill I can explain and show you how deep the rabbit hole actually goes...


Sounds right instinctively from what we already know, but I don't know the science behind where you get the 4x figure.  I take the red pill


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## Steve Smith (9 Apr 2008)

I think I might get the DIY CO2 on the go tonight on this tank, try and get the algae under control...


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## ceg4048 (9 Apr 2008)

Ray said:
			
		

> ...I hate to think what kind of botany and bio-chemistry textbooks you must be keeping at your bedside these days!


 I'll tell you what; there are some killer Microbial Ecology articles on the Springer-Link Journal website. I can't remember the URL right now but T.Barr directed us to the site. There is an article entitled "Strong Indirect Effects of a Submersed Aquatic Macrophyte,
Vallisneria americana, on Bacterioplankton Densities in a Mesotrophic Lake". What is so cool about this article is that it's one of the few tests done specifically using a popular aquarium plant. Most other research are done with terrestrial or invasive plants, leaving us to extrapolate the data to the aquatic regime.



			
				Ray said:
			
		

> :?: I think you are saying that a cycling process is important not just from the point of view of fish but also plants and not getting algae.


Oh most definitely Ray. Many people view tank cycling as if it were some sort of childhood disease to get over and done with. Cycling is critical because it establishes the very foundation upon which the battle against algae will be fought. The same process that we call "cycling" is actually a process which goes on continuously in the tank. If the plants are the cavalry, the bacteria are the infantry. It is specifically because of low bacteria population in a tank that the levels of NH4 and NO2 rise to such toxic levels. Then somehow we completely ignore this important component once the toxic levels fall. 



			
				Ray said:
			
		

> If I put a mature filter on a new planted tank will the bacteria population in the filter crash for want of sufficient organic carbon pollution from the plants?


 Well I suppose it would depend on what condition the tank from which you are pulling the filter from was in, but yes, generally, DOC limitation will cause a loss of population, but so what, you'd have a filter with a much higher population of nitrifying bacteria than if you used a brand new filter, and the bodies of the bacteria that die will contribute to the DOC as they decay (they'll contribute to NH4 as well though).  This is one of the reasons we suggest to seed a new filter or to put mulm from the gravel of an established tank into the gravel new tank. We want to get that population up as quickly as possible.



			
				Ray said:
			
		

> :?: I presume that turning the light down in the initial weeks is the best approach to allow things to get going slowly?


 Yep, there is way too much light turned on tanks startups round the world. I start my tanks with 50% to 75% of nominal value. This slows the DOC production a bit but the plants are usually inefficient anyway and lowering the light reduces algae's advantage. I also dose full EI from the start as there are some "good guy" bacteria which can use inorganic phosphates. I see so many cases where people do the exact opposite - high light and no/low nutrients, and it makes me think Hmmmmm...  



			
				Ray said:
			
		

> ceg4048 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well you are the electronics guy right? So you are aware that power is a squared expression, i.e Voltage squared/Resistance or Current squared*Resistance and so forth. Well, if you have double the bulb wattage (36W versus 18W) then that basically means that you are pumping 4 times a many photons per square centimeter onto the surface of a leaf. In the science of photsynthesis this is referred to more or less as the Photon Flux Density (the number of photons that pass over a certain square footage per unit time). Each wave of light carries with it a photon energy packet in the same way as an ocean wave carries flotsam onto the shore. Each lap of the wave strikes the beach and delivers the flotsam. Now just imagine a series of waves that strike the beach 2 billion times per second delivering 2 billion pieces of flotsam per second.  If I double the wattage I quadruple the number of waves and likewise quadruple the number of delivered energy packets. Each time a photon packet strikes the Chlorophyll, an electron is ejected from the chlorophyll and this electron flow starts the enzyme and carbohydrate production. Enzyme/carbohydrate production requires the availability of nutrients so If I quadruple the electron flow guess what happens to enzyme/carbohydrate production? Yep, quadrupled. Guess what that does to nutrient uptake requirements? The nutrients are required to support the increased electron flow in order to produce the increased enzyme/carbohydrate production rate. Now this is a simplistic view and I'm just using representative numbers but you get the picture. If Steve uses an 18 watt bulb in lieu of a 36 watt bulb the pressure on the plants to uptake nutrients/CO2 drops tremendously.

Cheers,


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## Ray (9 Apr 2008)

Lets see if I got this, because this is quite new, at least to me.  

Plants help with the removal of Ammonia not only by taking it in to metabolise it themselves but by contributing Derived Organic Carbon (DOC) to the environment which makes a more favourable environment for bacteria including those that breakdown ammonia in the nitrogen cycle.  Hence the more plant biomas you have the more DOC is produced - so a well planted tank will have less ammonia and so is less likely to have algae (since algae is induced by ammonia).

 :idea: Can we dose DOC in the early days of a tank without it contributing to the ammonia levels?

(Steve - apologies for jumping all over your thread - if it bothers you PM Clive who I'm sure will move this somewhere else)


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## Steve Smith (9 Apr 2008)

No no, its very interesting reading   I'm just about following it, though I wouldn't be able to explain it to someone else


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## ceg4048 (9 Apr 2008)

Ray said:
			
		

> Lets see if I got this, because this is quite new, at least to me.
> 
> Plants help with the removal of Ammonia not only by taking it in to metabolise it themselves but by contributing Derived Organic Carbon (DOC) to the environment which makes a more favourable environment for bacteria including those that breakdown ammonia in the nitrogen cycle.  Hence the more plant biomas you have the more DOC is produced - so a well planted tank will have less ammonia and so is less likely to have algae (since algae is induced by ammonia).



Yes I agree with this. (DOC is _Dissolved_ Organic Carbon not _Derived_)




			
				Ray said:
			
		

> :idea: Can we dose DOC in the early days of a tank without it contributing to the ammonia levels?



Theoretically this should be true based on this extract on the summary page: "In ... lakes, high rates of respiration in relation to primary production suggest the presence of other sources of organic carbon for bacteria in addition to phytoplankton-produced organic matter. In ... lakes with large inputs of ... (mainly terrestrial) carbon, there is a greater supply of DOC for bacterial growth than in clear-water ... lakes less influenced by such sources. Further, because the littoral zone can dominate over the pelagic zone on an area basis in many small and shallow lakes, loading of DOC from littoral communities can be significant and may be several times greater than the amount produced by pelagic phytoplankton.

This is a mouthful but what they are saying is that is shallow lakes, organic carbon washed into the water from the shore have a positive influence on the bacteria development. Bacteria in lakes influenced by DOC from the shore have a higher population than in lakes with rocky shores for example which have no source of DOC at their shore. In those types of lakes the DOC is produced from phytoplankton alone so that lake is more likely to be DOC limited than if there is a rich supply of DOC from a nearby forest or heavy carbon content soil for example.

I read another article which discussed the addition of glucose as a substitute form of DOC and it's effect of nitrification but I can't recall the article and I haven't really tried adding glucose myself so I can't confirm. I'll have to ask T. Barr about this because it's not clear. There is a set of dynamics between N, P and DOC so it may not be as straightforward depending on what else you are dosing.

This is probably as clear as mud but let me dig deeper can I?

Cheers,


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## GreenNeedle (9 Apr 2008)

I assume that Tom Barr's love of Leonardite is DOC related then?

Nice tank by the way Steve.  Where did you get the wood from that cheap?

Andy


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## ceg4048 (9 Apr 2008)

SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> I assume that Tom Barr's love of Leonardite is DOC related then?


Exactly. Leonardite is basically peat+coal, organic matter and DOC for the substrate bacteria. In the end this is probably a better option than adding glucose.

Cheers,


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## Steve Smith (9 Apr 2008)

SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> Nice tank by the way Steve.  Where did you get the wood from that cheap?
> Andy



My LFS, Coventry Aquatics.  They don't seem to be able to get any more redwood in at the moment.  This bit was in a display tank, so I asked if they'd sell it to me


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## Garuf (18 Apr 2008)

Hows this coming along, have you got the algae under control yet? This really should be great when it grows out, I'd be tempted to use some moss stones in their too and maybe some small "thinking" stones in the meadow carpets are nice but they need punctuation by something so they look more interesting.


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## Steve Smith (18 Apr 2008)

Its recovering quite well after mass hair algae.  I will have pressurised CO2 soon, but the Excell and lower light has really helped.

I like the idea of some small stones.  I'd need to find some good looking smallish stones.


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## Garuf (18 Apr 2008)

just get a single landscape rock and shatter it up a charm, some tiny off cuts of that petrified wood would work well too I reckon. I'm trying to think abit outside the usual realms here and so far its not going well but I think this scape has all the right ingredients its just a matter of bringing everything together.


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## Steve Smith (21 Apr 2008)

Well, the hair algae is now gone.  Still no CO2 but dosing Excel and ferts (need to get a correct regime going).  Growth is quite good still, though obviously slowed down a lot after reducing the light.  I even had 2 babies born about 1 1/2 weeks  ago 

Plans for the future include retrofitting an 18w PC into the hood, adding some cherry shrimp and planting more Eleocharis.  I will also toy with the landscape rock idea, as I have some kicking about that I can break up...

I'll post a pic later this week after the next water change


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## Steve Smith (24 Apr 2008)

Well, after a lot of advice from Clive and others (read previous pages!) I think I've pulled this back from the edge of destruction!  Still no CO2 but dosing Excel and dry ferts.  Not got a good routine yet but overdosing the dry ferts for now and seems to be doing OK.

I also had a stroke of luck when I discovered that a desk lamp I've had for several years has the same type of tube as the hood to this aquarium.  The bulb is a nicer, slightly brighter one.  The old was a half white, half blue tube.  This is white, and is 64000k so fingers crossed   It looks a little yellow but its nicer than the original.  Anyhow, some pics:












I'm going to play with Garuf's idea of a landscape rock or two strategically placed tomorrow to see what it looks like.  Added some Sylvania Natans and removed the E. Stellata stems I've had growing in there, as it looked messy 

Comments welcome!


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## Steve Smith (24 Apr 2008)

Actually, I've just been comparing the old photo to the new... I hadn't realised the weeping moss had grown so much  :!:


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## Garuf (24 Apr 2008)

It's really really good! give the moss 2 more weeks then trim it back hard so that it forms thicker more tight pads of growth.
I can't wait to see how this comes together It really looks the part.


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## Garuf (24 Apr 2008)

also regarding the rocks I think 3 would work best one largish one just behind the trunk of the tree a smaller one in the corner infront of the tree and one in the meadow of a middle size.


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## Steve Smith (24 Apr 2008)

Thanks Garuf 

Now all I need to do is sort out better filtration.  I can either use the crappy Eden 501 clone or maybe the Eheim 2213, though I think this might be a bit OTT.  The endlers don't seem to like too much flow...


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## Arana (24 Apr 2008)

It's growing in lovely mate, nice 1


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## Garuf (24 Apr 2008)

2213, all the way, endlers don't like the flow because like guppies they're not strong swimmers initially and are prone to becoming lazy.


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## Steve Smith (24 Apr 2008)

Heheh... I sense a work out commin...


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## Dan Crawford (25 Apr 2008)

Looking good pal!


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## johnny70 (25 Apr 2008)

I like it, very nice nano you have there  

JOHNNY


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## YzemaN (25 Apr 2008)

Nice one there! I would like to do a "Tree Scape" myself. Just need to work a bit on "she who must be obeyed" as I'm one tank short ATM. I also need to find a piece of wood that would do the job.


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## Themuleous (25 Apr 2008)

Woo - great scape Steve  really love the wood and moss.

Sam


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## Garuf (25 Apr 2008)

Here, have a picture on the house.


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## Steve Smith (25 Apr 2008)

I've put some stone in today and I quite like it.  I need to plant more eleocharis at the back of the scape.  I'll post a pic when I get a chance later/tomorrow.  Busy weekend ahead though.


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## Steve Smith (25 Apr 2008)

Well, I'm quite happy with the positioning.  Was difficult as I had to uproot a little of the eleocharis.  Now, I need to plant more!  I think the stones are subtle enough, and should look nice with some eleocharis growing inbetween them.


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## aaronnorth (26 Apr 2008)

Garuf said:
			
		

> 2213, all the way, endlers don't like the flow because like guppies they're not strong swimmers initially and are prone to becoming lazy.



My endlers like my flow of my fluval 204, 10x turnover on my 60l tank. They are always swimming into the outflow near the outet.

Loving the tree


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## Arana (26 Apr 2008)

Looking better by the day mate... well done


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## Themuleous (26 Apr 2008)

Good rock placement, they want to be almost invisible really. The 'tree' should remain the focus.

Sam


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## Steve Smith (27 Apr 2008)

Themuleous said:
			
		

> Good rock placement, they want to be almost invisible really. The 'tree' should remain the focus.
> 
> Sam



That was what I was trying to achieve   Hopefully the eleocharis will grow around it nicely


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## Steve Smith (3 May 2008)

And, asif by magic, the tank lives up to it's name!  I've just gone around feeding various tanks and I noticed a few tiny babies in this tank... I looked closer and current head count for new briths is 9 fry!  These plus the 2 older (few weeks) fry make 11 so far


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## Arana (3 May 2008)

Very cool mate, your a Dad!...Congrats


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## Steve Smith (12 May 2008)

Added about 20 or so cherry shrimp on Saturday.  They settled in well and are competing with the Yamato shrimp for algae   All happy and munching away!

Anyone ever noticed their amano and cherry shrimp eating blood worm?  Mine seem quite happy to munch on this if they get to one before the endlers do


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## johnny70 (12 May 2008)

yeap, mine love bloodworm, daphina, mysis etc

JOHNNY


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## Steve Smith (13 May 2008)

Few updated pics.  Moss needs a trim   You can just make out some of the youngest fry in the background at the bottom left!






3 week old fry:






Possibly the parents? May be the other pair! 






One of the new cherries:






I need to take some better pics   I was hastily taking a few pics before work this morning


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## JamesM (14 May 2008)

I love this scape. Its giving off some kind of vibe that I can't quite pinpoint... reminds me of a band I played in once too - Spooky Tree


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## Steve Smith (14 May 2008)

Hah, cool band name 

I can't help but think this needs something more.  Maybe a re-shuffle of the rocks.  It definately needs it's bold spot filling in around the back of the "tree"


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## JamesM (14 May 2008)

I was thinking the rocks may be too small for the grass... they fit the scale of the tree quite well, but the grass overpowers them a little too much.


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## Steve Smith (22 May 2008)

I seem to be loosing Cherry shrimp by the day at the moment   I've lost maybe 5 or 6 this week   Not sure what it is, maybe the Excel dosing (which I've stopped) or maybe too much trace (AE trace mix) perhaps?


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## JamesM (23 May 2008)

Sorry to hear that  

I've had a lot of good advice from this place: http://www.shrimpnow.com/forums/

Ammonium and Nitrite should always be 0, and as for the ferts, shrimp are massively sensitive to even the smallest amounts of copper. They are more prone to these (and other things) after molting. 

Copper levels worry me when adding trace mix, although the AE stuff has a lot less than the Garden Direct stuff, and other people seem able to keep shrimp happy. Can a copper free trace mix be made up or purchased? This fert business confuses me tbh :?


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