# EOTD  / Dual Stage Regulators - The Great Myth



## EgorTheGreat (13 May 2014)

I read a lot on here and very rarely post. I'd like to, it's just I just rarely get time.  There seems to be more and more threads on here relating to End of Tank Dump (EoTD) and the need for dual stage regulators and I just thought I'd share my experience with a single stage regulator from CO2 Supermarket...

I setup my tank around 3 years ago and looked to introduce a CO2 system, and had been quite scared of stories on here about EoTD.  I contacted CO2 Supermarket for their advice, and they said that they'd sold thousands of the single stage regulators that they stock and never had a single report of problems.  They floated the idea it was a myth, and I must say in my 3 years of running the CO2 system, I gotta agree with them.  I've used a variety of diffusers, but for the most part it's been inline atomizers, and I've used their SodaStream system, fire extinguishers, and BOC CO2 cylinders, and I've never had any problems with EoTD with either cylinder type.  Pressure and flow rate has remained pretty much constant right through the entire cylinder lifespan.  So, I don't really understand what all the fuss is about?

Is it possible that this is just a scare story that's being perpetuated because people take what they read as gospel, and is just repeated without questioning it?  I'm sure in certain situations it might be a problem, but I've never experienced any with the reg I bought from CO2 Supermarket, and they say they've sold thousands of them and never had a problem, so the evidence is kinda pointing toward it being a myth, or certainly over-hyped?

So they way I see it, you're basically paying extra to solve a problem that doesn't exist - I'd rather have the money in my pocket to be honest.

On a side note; I've also noticed CO2 Art seem to get a LOT of publicity on here and CO2 Supermarket gets hardly any.  Again, not sure why, CO2 Supermarket were the first CO2-dedicated website here in the UK and helped a lot of people get their systems setup (myself included), prices are very good, and my experience with their customer service and speed of delivery has been excellent.  So I just thought I'd give them the thumbs up as well.


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## RossMartin (13 May 2014)

Hi,

I've used both CO2 supermarket but more recently CO2Art, both very good!

I brought a Dual Stage regulator from CO2Art last week, not to protect against EOTD (although it did cross my mind and this also gives me peace of mind) but that my regulator was restricting the working pressure so I couldn't get more than 2.5bar. I'm running an Inline Atomizer and I wanted to be able to increase this so I brought a Dual stage regulator and am pleased to say it is just setting under 5bar now!

Adding the dual stage Regulator seems to have made a massive difference to how my Inline atomizer is working. I can, in two hours drop 1 PH, where as on my Single Stage regulator it took 4 to 5 hours!

Ross


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## pepedopolous (13 May 2014)

RossMartin said:


> Adding the dual stage Regulator seems to have made a massive difference to how my Inline atomizer is working. I can, in two hours drop 1 PH, where as on my Single Stage regulator it took 4 to 5 hours!



I'm not sure that this is anything to do with your regulator being dual stage. I'm sure most people have single stage regulators. I do and I've never had an EOTD. 

CO2Art are a great shop but I think that EOTD is unlikely if you have a decent regulator and needle valve.


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## EgorTheGreat (13 May 2014)

Weird, I've never had any problems with working pressure with an inline atomizer or bazooka atomizer either - I want more bubbles per sec I open the needle valve and voila, I get more CO2 going in.  Obviously there is a relationship between flow and pressure, but I don't understand how pressure can be increased without it affecting flow, so long as you have enough pressure to power the diffuser, it's flow (adjusted with the needle valve and checked with bubble counter) that dictates how much CO2 is going into the aquarium, not pressure.

I've used my trusty simple single stage regulator for years and never had any problems with EoTD, can use any diffuser I want, and can get as much CO2 going in as I want by adjusting the needle valve - drop checker goes from blue to green within an hour of lights on.

I dunno, I just read a lot on here and just wonder what all the fuss is about because I've never had any problems.  I sometimes think whether it's the manufacturers or shops that are helping to spread these rumours in order to sell more (expensive) kit.  Seems to be working too!  My recommendation; don't believe the hype.[DOUBLEPOST=1399994724][/DOUBLEPOST]Argh pepedopolous another plug for CO2Art, even after I tried to promote CO2 Supermarket.  Why does nobody ever recommend CO2 Supermarket, they've just as good customer service, same product ranges, prices as good often better than CO2 Art, and been around longer - why do they never get mentioned?  Poor guys.  Well, I tried.


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## RossMartin (13 May 2014)

The issue i had was that even with the needle valve fully open i couldn't get more than 5-6 bubbles a second. Not had that issue since i replaced the regulator! In fairness it could have been the regulator had an issue, but i was unable to get over 2.5 bar on my single stage regulator!


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## RossMartin (13 May 2014)

pepedopolous said:


> I'm not sure that this is anything to do with your regulator being dual stage. I'm sure most people have single stage regulators. I do and I've never had an EOTD.



Dual stage regulators allow you to change the working pressure, where as some single stage regulators work at a fixed pressure.


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## Andy Thurston (13 May 2014)

Co2 art is the best budget supplier regardless of which came first 
Co2 supermarket told my friend he couldn't collect from them that answer cost them a couple of substantial orders and now i wont recommend them to anybody[DOUBLEPOST=1400000460][/DOUBLEPOST]





RossMartin said:


> Dual stage regulators allow you to change the working pressure, where as some single stage regulators work at a fixed pressure.


Not true what about the a165 thats an adjustable single stage reg


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (13 May 2014)

Big clown said:


> Co2 art is the best budget supplier regardless of which came first
> Co2 supermarket told my friend he couldn't collect from them that answer cost them a couple of substantial orders and now i wont recommend them to anybody[DOUBLEPOST=1400000460][/DOUBLEPOST]
> Not true what about the a165 thats an adjustable single stage reg



Co2 Art will bend over backwards in the name of customer service.

I cannot recommend Co2 Art enough.
Every single order has come the very next day. Even when I've messaged to add something I'd forgotten (more than once  )


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## RossMartin (13 May 2014)

Hi Big Clown,

Thats why i said some regulators! I know mine was one that was set to a fixed pressure and moving to the Dual Stage where i can adjust the working pressure was the best thing i have done!


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## EgorTheGreat (13 May 2014)

I'm sure both CO2 Art and CO2 Supermarket provide equally good customer service, I'm not debating that.  All I'm saying is from numerous dealings with CO2 Supermarket throughout the years their customer service is also top-notch, and I also cannot recommend them highly enough and would rate them as my best budget supplier.  Each to their own.

I didn't mean for this to become a competition between us like a 'my dad is bigger than your dad'.  It's just an online shop after all, so nothing to get territorial about.  If we have two suppliers that provide great products, prices, and customer service then that's all the better for us isn't it.  All I'm saying is I don't think CO2 Supermarket get the exposure they deserve and CO2 Art seem to get 99.9% of all promotion on here.  It just seems a bit unfair to me, but what do I know.  I like to spread the love a bit y'know.

@Big clown - eshk, remind me not to get on your bad side!  Well, they're an online business so if they don't allow collections then I guess that's fair enough, I'm sure they had their reasons.  To not recommend them for not providing a service they don't advertise I think is a bit unjust.

Anyhow, gone a bit off course here folks...  sorry.


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## 13r0wn7 (13 May 2014)

Personally I have never had a better experience with an online shop before then with CO2Art customer service 10/10. So unless I cannot get what i want from there, I would have no reason to go else where!


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## Andy Thurston (13 May 2014)

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/dual-stage-co2-regulators-for-aquaria-co2-art.29641/
Heres a quote from that thread


> Thanks Richard. My reason for asking is that one of my regs suffers from end of tank dump with a fire extinguisher. I'd just like confirmation that this doesn't / cannot happen with the Co2 Art one. It's a great price but I'm wary that you can get what you pay for.



Eotd is not a myth its very rare but it does happen


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## co2supermarket (14 May 2014)

Hey Folks,

I just want to say that creating this kind of battle between CO2 Art and myself isn’t necessary, although it is quite funny reading people arguing who they received the best service from - what lucky people you are to have two suppliers that are providing good service to the community.  I have some very good customers and appreciate the custom and recommendations I get from people on here.  If people are happy to recommend my store then I just see that as a bonus, if people are recommending CO2 Art then that’s fine too, I’m sure they provide good service as well.  For some reason my customers are a little less vocal, and I'm not sure why that’s the case because as far as I know I haven’t had an unhappy customers in the 5 years that I've been in business, which from serving thousands of customers I think is quite an achievement.  Maybe they’re not active on forums, I dunno...

Like I say, I like to think I provide an excellent service and appreciate the custom I receive and the thumbs up I get from people on here, and I’m more than happy about the level of custom I get, so no need to argue for me, EgorTheGreat, but I appreciate the sentiment.  I have more ideas and developments in the pipeline and looking to expand my product range further once I secure new premises.  If you have any ideas for products you think I should to start stocking, or anything else then please feel free to contact me in the meantime.  Perhaps the dual stage regulator discussed here is one of them, to give people the choice.

Just to answer your point Big Clown, the reason I've declined requests for pick-ups recently isn't because I'm not trying to help or be difficult, but is because in the past I did allow people to pick up and sometimes it was fine but on other occasions it went wrong; on one occasion the customer went to the wrong address and was sat outside for 30mins thinking I’d gone out, when I was in fact around the corner at my address waiting for him.  He didn’t have his phone with him so he couldn't call me.  So an hour later I get an angry email from him claiming I wasn't in, when I actually was.  But I posted his order to him for free.  Another time a customer said they’d pick up at a certain time, but they didn't and I had to leave to pick the kids up from school before he arrived.  They arrived later, got angry I wasn't there etc etc, but again I posted it to him for free.  But as a result of these incidents I decided not to provide that option.  I’m sorry to hear you can no longer recommend me because of that, but just to keep everyone’s (mine and the customer’s) life simple and avoid confrontation I decided not to provide the option any more.  If that means I've missed out on some sales then I guess that's my loss, but a price I'll pay for a quiet life.  Hopefully now you've heard my side of the story, you can understand why, and wouldn’t be unhappy to refer people to me – it’s not for lack of trying that I don't provide the option.

Thanks again,

Martin
CO2 Supermarket


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (14 May 2014)

co2supermarket said:


> Hey Folks,
> 
> I just want to say that creating this kind of battle between CO2 Art and myself isn’t necessary, although it is quite funny reading people arguing who they received the best service from - what lucky people you are to have two suppliers that are providing good service to the community.  I have some very good customers and appreciate the custom and recommendations I get from people on here.  If people are happy to recommend my store then I just see that as a bonus, if people are recommending CO2 Art then that’s fine too, I’m sure they provide good service as well.  For some reason my customers are a little less vocal, and I'm not sure why that’s the case because as far as I know I haven’t had an unhappy customers in the 5 years that I've been in business, which from serving thousands of customers I think is quite an achievement.  Maybe they’re not active on forums, I dunno...
> 
> ...




I've never ordered anything from you Martin, so I obviously couldn't comment on your customer care.
If I had, and received excellent customer service from yourself, I would be quick enough to sing your praises. 
I'm not bias, I just gave a review of the company in my opinion. Which I and others are entitled to. 

You all enable us to maintain our hobby, so thanks for that.

Cheers,
N


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## co2supermarket (14 May 2014)

Thanks, N.  It's okay, I understand that.  People will naturally refer to whoever they've bought from and had good service from, it's to be expected.  All I ask is for people to keep an open mind because these forums carry a lot of weight in the community, and can send a lot of business one way or another, and if an entire heavily-trafficked forum all supports just one supplier it creates a very heavy bias.  But, that's life aint it


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## Alje (14 May 2014)

Customers eh, business would be so much better without them !


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (14 May 2014)

co2supermarket said:


> Thanks, N.  It's okay, I understand that.  People will naturally refer to whoever they've bought from and had good service from, it's to be expected.  All I ask is for people to keep an open mind because these forums carry a lot of weight in the community, and can send a lot of business one way or another, and if an entire heavily-trafficked forum all supports just one supplier it creates a very heavy bias.  But, that's life aint it



People will buy If they see a good deal.

Sometimes the donkey has got to see the carrot.

Maybe dangle a carrot? Get more active. I know it's not easy, but this is business. Your lively hood. 
Show us what you have each week. Have a weekly deal. Everybody loves deals.


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## sonicninja (14 May 2014)

I've never heard of CO2 Supermarket and automatically went with CO2 Art from various comments on this forum. As to EOTD I haven't experienced it myself but as other here purchased a dual stage reg just in case. Another very happy customer for CO2 Art, they are absolutely superb in helping out with any teething problems.


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## ian_m (14 May 2014)

co2supermarket said:


> For some reason my customers are a little less vocal


I am vocal for you...my CO2supermarket still working over 2 years later...


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## EgorTheGreat (15 May 2014)

Nice first post, Martin.  Welcome to the forum.  I see you’re sponsor now too, so thanks for supporting the community here.

As Nathaniel said, people will just recommend whoever they’ve bought from and received good service from.  It’s nothing personal against you, so don’t get disheartened or feel hard done by, but I can fully understand where you’re coming from when every other thread on here seems to promote a competitor.  As sonicninja said, not heard of CO2 Supermarket, but heard of CO2 Art because of various comments on here.  Kinda backs up what you said – very biased toward one supplier, and that is unfair.

I’m happy to recommend you because you’ve answered a lot of my questions and I bought a lot from you and received the stuff quickly, next day in most cases.

Keep up the good work and please keep us informed of developments and before you know it we’ll all be recommending you


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## Yo-han (15 May 2014)

I think EOTD only happens on large tanks. I've two exactly the same regulators, one on a 20L and one on my 400L. With over 10 times the bubble count EOTD on my 400L happens in 1 day. On the 20L in two weeks. Enough time to notice CO2 gets higher and adjust on time.

EOTD isn't a real problem if you have a small tank and a little bit of spare room (no yellow dropchecker). When CO2 is already maxed out and a large tank, it happens more often.


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