# Stus Rio 125 re-plant journal



## Stu Worrall (20 Sep 2008)

Hi all

This is my first journal on here and im currently cleaning the gravel out of my rio 125 tonight in prep for putting in some ADA amazonia I picked up from TGM on Friday.  Im stuck on whether to do an Iwagumi with some schist rock I have or do a combined rock/redmoore as I also picked up a nice piece of this wood the other week from TGM which ive had soaking.  I definitely want a carpet of HC though so have been giving the forum a thorough read!

This is the tank as it was before i let it fell apart.  It looked quite messy compared to some of the posting here!



Im also not sure what to do with the back as I have a juwel black bumpy background siliconed in but they seem quite out of favour these days so i would welcome some comments when I post up some test layouts tomorrow

Equipment at the moment is;

Sera fil external 900 filter (juwel filter was remvoed at purchase time)
Sera internal co2 reactor (may be changing this for a rhinox 2000 or similar once funds allow)
Aquamagic drop checker (in the post)
Rio 125 with 18l of ADA Amazonia
2kg c02 FE with sera valve
Juwel 100w heater
3 * 18w T8 sera tubes (not sure if this will be enough for the HC?)


Im undecided what to do with the lighting at the moment as I find the inbuilt juwel lights a pain.  Ive got an Arcadia luminaire 60cm 2*24W T5 from my other tank with a T5 compact (18w i think?) bolted onto it.  Im not sure whether to shift this onto the rio but obviously the 60cm wont fit on the 80cm Rio.  Any ideas on this?

Ideally i'd like to buy an 80cm 4*24W but cant afford it at the mo as the next pay packet will be going towards ferts and plants.

Lots of things have changed since I was last doing this through Allisons Aquarium (which sadly closed due to emigration).  The Sera PH controller is going on ebay, the pump is being set to full flow and the ferts will be TPN+ for now  (not sure if I can combine it with Sera florena which Ive got loads of?)

Any pointers on the above would be great, thanks  


EDIT: tank after 5 months


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## aaronnorth (21 Sep 2008)

looking forward to it, i like the last layout


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## LondonDragon (21 Sep 2008)

stuworrall said:
			
		

> 3 * 18w T8 sera tubes (not sure if this will be enough for the HC?)


Don't think this will be enough, the Rio is pretty high so light doesn'Â«t get to the gravel that easy, with 4x24w I have never managed to grow HC.
Good luck mate looking good


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## keymaker (21 Sep 2008)

The tank looks really promising!

On the lighting: if your budget affords it, you might want to consider buying a Juwel T5 "I bar" sold separately as a spare part for your tank in most shops that have Juwel stuff. You can than boost that with reflectors and add one or two additional T5-s with reflectors using mralgae's solution from PFK:

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/f ... hp?t=14735


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## Stu Worrall (21 Sep 2008)

LondonDragon said:
			
		

> stuworrall said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


thats not so good news   I may have to have a re-think then but theres plenty of time for that. have you grown glosso ok in the rio as I definately want a carpet in there.

@keymaker:  I kind of already so the same as whats in the link except its with 3*18w T8's with reflectors.  I think for the cost of the high light ibar plus extra T5 ballast I'd go for a second hand 4*24w  luminair.

just painting behind the tank at the moment as it got missed at the last decoration due to the tank being full


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## aaronnorth (21 Sep 2008)

Run your CO2 high to get HC started off, and also leave it floating in the tank for a few days.


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## Stu Worrall (21 Sep 2008)

aaronnorth said:
			
		

> Run your CO2 high to get HC started off, and also leave it floating in the tank for a few days.


ta for that, i was thinking of planting the carpet while there was no water in there to amke it easier.  Ive got a 60cm tank going so could leave it floating in there as its got co2 running on it


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## joyous214 (21 Sep 2008)

NICE...


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## Stu Worrall (23 Sep 2008)

old tank has been ripped out now and Ive been playing around with the schist rock and redmoor over the last few nights.  Ill post some pics up later for some opinions on which way to go.  While the main tank has been doign nothing ive also stripped out my 60cm clearseal "spare" and put the recovered bogwood, crypts and java fern from the main tank in.  Ill post some pics of that too later but its going to be the holding tank for any plants I gradually buy to go in the main tank


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## Vito (23 Sep 2008)

Hey Stu, I have a rio 125 and I am using "hagen glomat twin unit 20W" with reflectors and balanced on the center brace along side the original juwel 18w light unit, I pinched the idea from one of George Farmers tanks and I am currently growing HC, Glosso and Hairgrass and all seems to be doing very well, the unit itself is Â£20 I got mine from here http://www.aquatics-online.co.uk/catalogue/fluorescent-light-control-units.asp.

good luck mate, hope to see some pics soon.

Vito.


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## Stu Worrall (23 Sep 2008)

Vito said:
			
		

> Hey Stu, I have a rio 125 and I am using "hagen glomat twin unit 20W" with reflectors and balanced on the center brace along side the original juwel 18w light unit, I pinched the idea from one of George Farmers tanks and I am currently growing HC, Glosso and Hairgrass and all seems to be doing very well, the unit itself is Â£20 I got mine from here http://www.aquatics-online.co.uk/catalogue/fluorescent-light-control-units.asp.
> 
> good luck mate, hope to see some pics soon.
> 
> Vito.


funny you should mention that as ive got one of those on my 60cm tank in the 36Watt version and was thinking of moving it to the Rio.  That would leave the 60cm with an arcadia which has 2*24w T5's in which should be ok for a low light tank of that size (i think!)


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## LondonDragon (23 Sep 2008)

stuworrall said:
			
		

> thats not so good news   I may have to have a re-think then but theres plenty of time for that. have you grown glosso ok in the rio as I definately want a carpet in there.


Glosso grows fine with 4x24w, so if you add a couple more tubes you should be fine, just attach them to the flaps if you don't want to get a luminaire


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## Stu Worrall (23 Sep 2008)

sorry vito, i just realised ive got an interpet t5 compact and not a hagen. - http://fluidwebs.co.uk/just4/product.php?productid=824  it  will probably still fit though so may try it out.

Paulo, its not that i dont want a 4*24w luminaire, just that I cant afford one!    am still checking out your german ebay supplier for auctions but they only seem to be doing buy it nows at the moment for Â£110


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## LondonDragon (23 Sep 2008)

One of these would do the trick and add a couple of 24W tubes 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HAGEN-GLO-T5-HO-T ... 286.c0.m14


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## Vito (23 Sep 2008)

Any of the glomat's would be good, its just a cheaper solution and fits nicely under the flaps and I went for the 20w because I didn't want overheating to occur.

Vito


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## Stu Worrall (25 Sep 2008)

ive been messing around with stones again tonight and came up with these although they are pretty much the same. any opinions and am I doing anything majorly wrong?  Ill put some more pics up with the redmoor ive got tomorrow but im having trouble fitting this in with the rocks at the moment and getting them to "balance" together if you know what i mean.


1.





2.





3.





4.





its all the same rock by the way, it just has varying amounts colour from some being new and some from my old tank setup


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## Vito (25 Sep 2008)

No. 3 is my fav, I love the left and right rock formation. great job mate.

Regards

Vito.


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## joyous214 (25 Sep 2008)

I like number one.


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## keymaker (25 Sep 2008)

joyous214 said:
			
		

> I like number one.


Me too, with the rocks on the right from 3 and 4.


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## Stu Worrall (25 Sep 2008)

thanks, ill re-align 1 with the right hand rocks from 3 tonight before I try to include the redmoor. more pics to follow!


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## LondonDragon (25 Sep 2008)

Watch out for that middle rock, with plants it will disapear in no time


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## Stu Worrall (25 Sep 2008)

id thought that might be the case. I was thinking of raising it up a little but by maybe putting some slate underneat where you wont see it, possibly the same thing for the rocks on the left too.


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## Stu Worrall (26 Sep 2008)

anybody got any suggestions for getting silicon off the glass?  Ive removed the old backing that was siliconed on but its letf circles of a thin layer that I cant get off with a razor blade as it just seems to smear it accross the glass.  You can see it on the pics on page two


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## aaronnorth (26 Sep 2008)

how about hot, possible boiling water?


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## Stu Worrall (26 Sep 2008)

ill get my big rubber gloves out and give it a go


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## milla (26 Sep 2008)

Try methylated spirit its what's used in the building trade to remove silicone sealer from windows / tiles etc.


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## alexandre (26 Sep 2008)

Acetone, remove what you can with razor blade and the littles pelicules with acetone. It work like a charm.


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## zig (28 Sep 2008)

WD40


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## Garuf (28 Sep 2008)

Wd40 will leave a toxic residue when it reacts with the silicon, I'd give that one a miss.


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## Stu Worrall (28 Sep 2008)

thanks for the advice. i got the silicone off with some isopropanol alc and the razor.

ive taken some more pics with the wood in that ive got and im struggling to integrate them both into the tank so it looks as good as just the rocks.  Ive also put in a black background as you can see the heating pipes behind without it in.
Excuse the pic quality as had to take them in daylight












(I dont like the rock on the left on this so will move it)


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## joyous214 (28 Sep 2008)

Like the second one. what plants are you going to put in?


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## aaronnorth (28 Sep 2008)

pic 3 does it for me with the wood, but the rocks still need re-arraging.


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## Stu Worrall (28 Sep 2008)

i want to put either HC or glosso along the front with Pogostemon helferi in front of the rocks along with some dwarf sag ive had off matt.  Xmas moss and fissidens on the wood if it goes in, not sure on any stems for the background yet.


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## Stu Worrall (3 Oct 2008)

and so it begins ...  Day 1

i finally got around to deciding on a hardscape layout after leaving it lit with no water for a week on the advice of Jim at TGM.  This worked really well as i re-arranged a few times to something I was finally happy with.  I met up with Dave Spencer the other night (great tank youve got there Dave   ) and he kindly gave me some clippings and HC to try.  Ive also had some plants from the For Sale section from James and Matt (dwarf sag in my other tank at the mo) and the rest of the plants from TGM (HC and Pogostemon helferi).

Planted and filling the tank.





Closeup of some of the Schist, Helferi and HC.  The redmoor has been wrapped with xmas moss and some fissidens.






Final image (some stems from dave are going to fill in the dead spots to the left and right of the wood.) Its also not completely full here so the root will be a little deeper.






I realised after looking at the final image that the 3 big rocks on the right that slope off look really uniform and not random.  The good thing for me is that from the way you view the tank in the lounge you dont notice this.  Form the couch its viewed from the right and they look fine and not regimented. also wehn walking into the room and looking down at the tank they again look randomly placed because of the different distances they are placed (if that makes sense!)  Ill get some more pics up from the differnt viewing angles once it settles down.  its also now running on 4 * 18W t8's but im on the lookout for a 4 * T5 luminaire.

Im using TPN+ and Jim has advised 8ml per day so was after some thought on this and when I should start dosing?  Ive also got easy carbo and im using the recommended doses for the Rio 125.  The Amazonia is new so will be doing 50% water changes a for the first week.  No livestock yet but shrimps and harlequins to come later


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## JamesM (3 Oct 2008)

Nice, Stu


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## Mark Evans (3 Oct 2008)

is the rock from TGM? it looks like what ive bought from there. looks great!


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## Stu Worrall (3 Oct 2008)

saintly said:
			
		

> is the rock from TGM? it looks like what ive bought from there. looks great!


yup its the same stuff, it has nice wavy lines through it that look great once its weathered in.  Some is from TGM and the rest is from my old setup from Alisons Aquarium down the road.


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## Stu Worrall (10 Oct 2008)

a look back at day 1





Heres an update of the tank at day 7 (today)






And a picture of the viewing angle in the lounge.  The spray bar is providing a good flow around the tank with the HC 






*Updated List*
Sera fil external 900lph filter 
Sera internal co2 reactor (Medium ceramic diffuser in post)
Aquamagic drop checker - Lime green
Rio 125 with 18l of ADA Amazonia
2kg c02 FE with sera valve
Juwel 100w heater
3 * 18w T8 sera tubes & 1 * 36W T5 power compact

*EI Dosing using:*
TPN+ - 5ml every other day
Sera Florena - 5ml every other day
EasyCarbo - 5ml per day

Ive got some more fontala cuttings growing behind the root which should appear soon once they get some height.  Im also after suggestions on how to hide more of the root. Any ideas what would be good to plant on it to make it less conspicuous?

Im beginning to become unsure of the rocks in the tank, one have I got too many and two are they put in too regulary so ive been thinking about moving one or two slightly.  Ive not noticed much pearling yet even though ive got the co2 running 24 hrs and its going in at about 3-4 bps at the mo.  Do new tanks take a while before they pearl?

Some shoaling fish and shrimp soon once ive got some more money and confirmed the amonia spike from the amazonia is no more.

Im open to any suggestions or comments so if you see anything thats crap then please do tell me!


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## Stu Worrall (10 Oct 2008)

further to the last post, are there any compact java ferns with short leaves that I could attach to the wood above?


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## beeky (10 Oct 2008)

You've done a really nice job there, well done. I would only say try moving the third rock in from the piece of wood so it points towards the front left top corner. Make it point more vertically than the one on the far left though.

I don't know if it will look any better, but I think it's worth trying!


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## Stu Worrall (10 Oct 2008)

cheers beeky. I hadnt thought about moving it the other way so will give it a go.  Ive got some java narrow fern spare so im going to attach it to the wood. anyone got any advice on attaching java to wood thats already in the tank? Cant realy get cotton around the bits I want to secure it to


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## beeky (10 Oct 2008)

If the wood is relatively flat you could put a couple of small pebbles on it to hold it down. If it's a twiggy bit then I'm stumped!


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## YzemaN (11 Oct 2008)

Try with needle and thread. Worked for me, anyway. Bits of stone or lead strips can also hold it down for a few weeks until it gets a hold. It doesn't take mush to hold them down.
Gorgeous looking tank btw. I really like the rocks. Maybe you could try to take the three largest pieces on the right and move them closer together and plant some Anubias or P. helferi between them?


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## Stu Worrall (17 Oct 2008)

stuworrall said:
			
		

> a look back at day 1
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Day 14











Ive added some java narrow fern and another fern which ive forgotten the name of to the redmoor to fill it in a bit.  They been attached to small round slate pebbles and placed in strategic locations.  The HC is growing but the flow of water from the spraybar keeps blowing it off the ground!  not sure what I can do about that as its not wise to reduce the flow is it?

unfortunately the algae has set in so im open to any pointers 














Ive been removing the algae with a toothbrush and there is one "test" amano shrimp in the tank at the moment.

Current dosing is 5ml TPN+ and 5ml easycarbo per day and ive been doing 50% water changes every 2-3 days due to the new Amazonia.  Lighting is now 4 x 18w for 9 hours (I took the t5 36w out as it was a pain in the hood as it didnt fit).  drop checker is lime green and bps around 3-4.

Should I be upping the TPN+ to combat the algae?


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## ceg4048 (17 Oct 2008)

Hi,
    You may want to consider increasing the injection rate and repositioning the diffuser. Try moving it under the spraybar so that it gets carried by the spraybar effluent and is distributed to the moss more quickly. 

Cheers,


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## Stu Worrall (17 Oct 2008)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Hi,
> You may want to consider increasing the injection rate and repositioning the diffuser. Try moving it under the spraybar so that it gets carried by the spraybar effluent and is distributed to the moss more quickly.
> 
> Cheers,


cheers clive.  the diffuser bubbles do get dragged into the current off the spraybar but I'll move it over so its fully caught and bump the co2 up a bit.  co2 is on 24/7 by the way as I haven't got a solenoid on this tank yet. (thanks to a kindly dave spencer for the co2 stuff  )

by the way, ive not seen much pearling yet


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## LondonDragon (17 Oct 2008)

Looking great Stu, apart from the algae hehe  as Clive suggests up the CO2


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## Stu Worrall (17 Oct 2008)

already done LD, will see how it goes..

Forgot to say the old fonatllus I had in my spare tank is now starting to grow.  Its been sat in the mesh from aquaticmagic since about 2006 with no lights on but filter running so it shows how resilient it is


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## oldwhitewood (17 Oct 2008)

Looking really good.


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## ceg4048 (17 Oct 2008)

stuworrall said:
			
		

> by the way, ive not seen much pearling yet


Hi Stu,
    Yes, well that's because pearling is caused by high rate of oxygen production. High rate of oxygen production is a result of high rate of carbon fixation plus high rate of hydrolysis of H2O (removal of H from H2O). High rate of carbon fixation can only occur if there is high quantity of carbon. Clearly then, you can only have high quantity of carbon if you are actually adding high quantity of CO2 or high quantity of Excel or both. When there is high quantity of carbon available the plant will be strengthened, will resist the attacks of the hair algae and will produce excess oxygen as a "waste product" as it consumes the carbon. Oxygen bubbles will then replace the hair in your photos #5 and #6.

Cheers,


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## Stu Worrall (17 Oct 2008)

the plants must be sucking it up big time then.  Ive moved the diffuser under the spraybar now and also had a look at your thread where you showed your spraybar over nearly the full length of the tank.  Im getting more tubing to do this so it should distribute the nutrients better.

Can I up the easycarbo as well from 5ml or just stick with increasing the bps steadily?


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## beeky (17 Oct 2008)

People double dose (and even triple dose in some cases) without any ill effects, although there are concerns that vallis can melt in such conditions.


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## aaronnorth (17 Oct 2008)

> Clearly then, you can only have high quantity of carbon if you are actually adding high quantity of CO2 or high quantity of Excel or both



i thought that you would only be able to get pearling from CO2, not just C, as i though they took in CO2, then respired the O2?

sorry for the hi jack, and the tank is looking fab, great pics aswell.


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## ceg4048 (18 Oct 2008)

Well, it may be possible but I know of no way to add just C for plant assimilation. CO2 gas diffuses through the stomata directly, Excel/Easycarbo is converted to CO2 after diffusing through the leaf, the Carbo plus carbon block unit produces CO2 via electrolysis and the CO3 or HCO3 (measured as water's KH) can be processed into CO2 by many species. Which method of adding only C only are you referring to mate?

Cheers,


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## aaronnorth (18 Oct 2008)

by adding excel, i just thought that it was carbon, and nothing else? going by the quote below, you are saying that adding just excel will promote pearling? if excel is only carbon and no oxygen, then the plants wont be able to pearl will they? Or do they get the oxygen from the hydrolis of H2O?

Hpoe you understand, i dont know how to explain it   



> Hi Stu,
> Yes, well that's because pearling is caused by high rate of oxygen production. High rate of oxygen production is a result of high rate of carbon fixation plus high rate of hydrolysis of H2O (removal of H from H2O). High rate of carbon fixation can only occur if there is high quantity of carbon. Clearly then, you can only have high quantity of carbon if you are actually adding high quantity of CO2 or high quantity of Excel or both. When there is high quantity of carbon available the plant will be strengthened, will resist the attacks of the hair algae and will produce excess oxygen as a "waste product" as it consumes the carbon. Oxygen bubbles will then replace the hair in your photos #5 and #6.
> 
> Cheers,


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## ceg4048 (18 Oct 2008)

Aaron,
           If Excel/Easycarbo was only pure carbon then we wouldn't need to spend Â£20 per liter. If it was only carbon it wouldn't be so incredibly toxic to us. We would just need to throw some charcoal from the fireplace into the water.

The chemical process of photosynthesis and the physical construction of the reaction chambers, as well as the transport mechanisms (Rubisco enzyme) specifically requires Carbon in the form of CO2. Plants use the Calvin Cycle to "Fix", or assimilate Carbon from CO2. The O2 is simply a waste product of that cycle. Some of this O2 is used in "glycolysis" which is the process in which cells respire and consume energy.

Excel/Easycarbo is  a complex Carbon compound constructed of a molecular polygon which includes Glutaraldehyde (C5H8O2) as it's foundation. Many higher plants have the ability, through other chemical reactions to break down this complex molecule into CO2 which is then transported to enter the Calvin Cycle. Some plants, like Riccia, and most algae do not have the facility or the sequence of required sophisticated chemical reactions to perform this breakdown and so the Glutaraldehyde  becomes toxic. It's therefore a gross oversimplification to describe Excel/Easycarbo as "just Carbon and nothing else". Far from it mate.

Cheers,


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## Stu Worrall (18 Oct 2008)

i think i get most of that although im not a chemist   Ive now moved the diffuser to under the intake as dave spencer suggested when he was around the other week.  the tank is now a lot less cloudy as the bubbles seem to be getting nicely smashed inside the filter. ive upped the co2 as well so will see how the algae goes.

still dosing 5ml TPN+ and 5ml easycarbo.


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## aaronnorth (18 Oct 2008)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Aaron,
> If Excel/Easycarbo was only pure carbon then we wouldn't need to spend Â£20 per liter. If it was only carbon it wouldn't be so incredibly toxic to us. We would just need to throw some charcoal from the fireplace into the water.
> 
> The chemical process of photosynthesis and the physical construction of the reaction chambers, as well as the transport mechanisms (Rubisco enzyme) specifically requires Carbon in the form of CO2. Plants use the Calvin Cycle to "Fix", or assimilate Carbon from CO2. The O2 is simply a waste product of that cycle. Some of this O2 is used in "glycolysis" which is the process in which cells respire and consume energy.
> ...



Thanks, i get the basic process of it, i am sure the scientific part will follow


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## Stu Worrall (22 Oct 2008)

not a great day     Ive bumped up the co2 and its going in at a rate of knots but I found one of the two amani shrimps deed tonight.  I did also find a shedded skin yesterday so not sure if its this one thats died.

On a good front I won a 4 x T5 24w Luminaire for Â£52 inc delivery on ebay this week so that should be here soon.  Not putting it on though until i sort out the algae then get a plan for increasing the light for the HC.

im still on 5ml of tpn+ and easy carbo.

is it worth turning off one of my lights to help with getting rid of the algae?


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## ceg4048 (23 Oct 2008)

Hi Stu,
       Yes, lowering light is always a good idea when fighting algae. This is because light is one of the fundamental causes of algae. I'll repeat that HC, glosso and all the other carpet plants are not necessarily high light plants, they are high CO2 plants. Given the proper levels of CO2, these plants simply grow faster with high lighting, but they really do not "need" massive lighting. Generally, if you have enough light to grow algae then you probably have enough to grow HC. For example, has it registered in your mind yet that the moss, which is much closer to the light has more algal growth than some of the carpet plants? I would estimate roughly that the light energy being received at the surface of the Fissidens leaf location is about 10X higher than at the substrate level where the P. helferi is. That means the Fissidens needs 10X as much CO2 (roughly speaking.) 

100 watts T5 with reflectors is a lot of light for a 30 gallon tank. Your CO2 and or flow distribution will need to be flawless to avoid trouble. So really, lighting, in a way, is the root of all evil. High lighting drives the plants to grow faster but if the nutrients and CO2 levels cannot support that growth rate then the the plants stumble, leaving them vulnerable to algal attacks.

If it is indeed determined that the higher injection rate is negatively impacting the shrimp then the only alternatives will be to have lower lighting, and/or have higher flow, and/or to use more Excel. Lower lighting lowers the CO2 uptake demand. Higher flow increases the CO2 distribution and of course, higher Excel dosing increases the available CO2 without raising the water column CO2 levels.

Cheers,


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## Stu Worrall (23 Oct 2008)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Hi Stu,
> Yes, lowering light is always a good idea when fighting algae. This is because light is one of the fundamental causes of algae. I'll repeat that HC, glosso and all the other carpet plants are not necessarily high light plants, they are high CO2 plants. Given the proper levels of CO2, these plants simply grow faster with high lighting, but they really do not "need" massive lighting. Generally, if you have enough light to grow algae then you probably have enough to grow HC. For example, has it registered in your mind yet that the moss, which is much closer to the light has more algal growth than some of the carpet plants? I would estimate roughly that the light energy being received at the surface of the Fissidens leaf location is about 10X higher than at the substrate level where the P. helferi is. That means the Fissidens needs 10X as much CO2 (roughly speaking.)
> 
> 100 watts T5 with reflectors is a lot of light for a 30 gallon tank. Your CO2 and or flow distribution will need to be flawless to avoid trouble. So really, lighting, in a way, is the root of all evil. High lighting drives the plants to grow faster but if the nutrients and CO2 levels cannot support that growth rate then the the plants stumble, leaving them vulnerable to algal attacks.
> ...



cheers clive, all very well explained as usual. I had realised about the moss getting the algae quicker and ive been spraying the easy carbo on that to try and help it out.  Ive dropped down to 3 lights for now and the co2 is still up, drop checker is limeade green.  Ive still not got around to buying an extended spraybar so thats still to do but there's still tons of flow dropping down the front of the glass and onto the carpet.

The luminaire isnt going in yet as its an xmas pressie from the wife.  Ill probably try and blank one light out when it first goes on but I thought id read on here that the t5's got better penetration into the tank as the Rio is 45cm high? That plus it will be so much easier to do maintenance on the tank without a hood!


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## Stu Worrall (6 Nov 2008)

just thought id post an update on my tank.  I got rid of most of the algae by upping the co2 to almost yellow levels and putting a fluval powerhead in to blow some water around the tank a bit more.  The only thing I was left with was lots of spyrogyra.  Did lots of work with the toothbrush but it kept growing and growing   Dave spencer suggested a blackout so the tank is currently under wartime conditions with a grand opening on friday night.

The one thing I was confused about was id read on here that lots of water chanes were recommended with the blackout. How do you do this when your tank is taped up with bin liners and you dont want to let any light in?


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## Goodygumdrops (6 Nov 2008)

stuworrall said:
			
		

> just thought id post an update on my tank.  I got rid of most of the algae by upping the co2 to almost yellow levels and putting a fluval powerhead in to blow some water around the tank a bit more.  The only thing I was left with was lots of spyrogyra.  Did lots of work with the toothbrush but it kept growing and growing   Dave spencer suggested a blackout so the tank is currently under wartime conditions with a grand opening on friday night.
> 
> The one thing I was confused about was id read on here that lots of water chanes were recommended with the blackout. How do you do this when your tank is taped up with bin liners and you dont want to let any light in?




Do it at night?(with a light on obviously,or a torch if you want an adventurous feel!)


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## Stu Worrall (6 Nov 2008)

i had thought of that but id also seen someone say "no peeking" so assumed it had to be totally dark for the 3 days.  ill cut a big hole in the bag tonight and doa stealth change   

on a side note to get rid of the ugly powerhead I was thinking of upgrading my serafil 900 filter.  Was looking at the tetratec ex1200 but it seems to be getting a bashing on this forum at the moment with random quality issues.  Has anyone every tried a Serfil 1300 or what eheim would be good for a Rio 125?


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## Goodygumdrops (6 Nov 2008)

"ill cut a big hole in the bag tonight and doa stealth change  "

Send in the ninjas!


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## ceg4048 (6 Nov 2008)

Stu, there's no pressing need to do water changes during the blackout. Massive water changes immediately before and after the blackout is a better idea...

Cheers,


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## vauxhallmark (6 Nov 2008)

Goodygumdrops said:
			
		

> stuworrall said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you've got an external filter then you only need to open the bags up enough to see the water level - drain the tank out of the filter's inlet pipe till the level's down to what you want, then refill through a tube in the normal way. This would be the least disruptive. 

If you've got fish in the tank I'd be really careful about taking the covers off at the end of the blackout too - I'd do it at night so they get a dawn when the sun rises. I once put the light on in my tank when the room was completely dark (wanted to show it off   to someone) and the ottos in particular went crazy - you could hear them banging their noses on the tank walls as they shot around   So there's another lesson I've learnt!

Good luck with the tank,

Mark


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## Stu Worrall (6 Nov 2008)

thanks ceg and mark.  i did a large water change before the blackout so will do another sat morning before lights on.  Ill open it up under dimmed light mark, thanks for the info as Ive got some high spot rasboras and blue emporer tetras in there now.


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## Dave Spencer (6 Nov 2008)

I would just leave it under 100% darkness for the duration, Stu. As soon as the covers come off, hit it with as big a water change as possible and get straight back on to the ferts and CO2 for maximum plant growth whilst the Spirogyra is subdued.

You may want to consider upping the water changing frequency for a week or two after lights on to keep on top of the algae spores.

Once you start to get some real plant mass in there, controlling the algae will be a lot easier. This is when you can then trim the plants back to where you want, but be aware that you are reducing plant mass. Another big water change or two after the pruning session should help keep the algae at bay.

Dave.


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## Vito (6 Nov 2008)

stuworrall said:
			
		

> Was looking at the tetratec ex1200 but it seems to be getting a bashing on this forum at the moment with random quality issues.



I have a Tetratec ex1200 and I havn't had a single problem or complaint and its dead silent, having said that this is my first external filter but I did alot of research before I bought it, you can pick one up for Â£60-Â£70 online, as far as I am awear thats a good value for money....

Any way thats my opinion mate, hope it helps

Good luck with the blackout

Vito


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## JamesM (6 Nov 2008)

No problems with my EX1200 either. Its a great filter


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## Stu Worrall (7 Nov 2008)

thanks all, i think im going to go with one of those and switch over to an external heater, its the larger hydor heater id need with the ex1200 isnt it?


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## Vito (7 Nov 2008)

stuworrall said:
			
		

> thanks all, i think im going to go with one of those and switch over to an external heater, its the larger hydor heater id need with the ex1200 isnt it?



I went with the 300W but i think the tubes of the 200W fit also, I just thought I'd get the extra power just in case I needed it and it was only a few quid diffrence at the time.


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## Dave Spencer (7 Nov 2008)

You will need the 300W to fit the 1200 hoses.

I run two 1200s on my 120cm and am very happy with them...and the Hydor in line heater.

Dave.


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## Steve Smith (7 Nov 2008)

You can get the 200w ETH in both 12mm and 16mm.  Just make sure you get the right one!


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## Stu Worrall (19 Dec 2008)

just a quick update on the tank.  The algae seems to be getting under control now although there is still some spirogyra in there.  I dumped all my shrimp out of my spare tank last week so theyve helped clean up any other algae.

The HC still hasnt really done anything and the hairgrass at the back seemed to really suffer after the blackout so not sure what I did to upset it.  Not sure whether to try some glosso or more hairgrass instead of the HC as ive resided to the fact i just cant grow it     The white bits on the substrate are from where I smashed up some schist to create some more graduated rock.  they still need to wheather in so are a bit white.  Ive put a kind of rock fall in to the right of the biggest rock if you can see it o this pic  

Heres the latest pic. the moss, rotala and hairgrass needs a bit of chopping back plus im going to re-position the java a bit further back.


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## TDI-line (20 Dec 2008)

Great pic Stu.


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## ceg4048 (20 Dec 2008)

Hey Stu,
            FYI Master Po of the Shaolin Temple advises not give up on HC, and that's because when you solve the riddle of HC you'll in effect solve a lot of other problems as well. I reckon you just need to get more CO2/flow to the front bottom of the tank. Is that some kind of moss floating in the upper RH corner? What ever it is get it away from there as it will block flow from the spraybar. Perhaps a tad more injection rate might be in order as well s a bit more Excel/Easycarbo. Even a powerhead mounted in upper front RH corner pointing downwards towards the carpet might help as well.

Cheers,


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## Stu Worrall (20 Dec 2008)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Hey Stu,
> FYI Master Po of the Shaolin Temple advises not give up on HC, and that's because when you solve the riddle of HC you'll in effect solve a lot of other problems as well. I reckon you just need to get more CO2/flow to the front bottom of the tank. Is that some kind of moss floating in the upper RH corner? What ever it is get it away from there as it will block flow from the spraybar. Perhaps a tad more injection rate might be in order as well s a bit more Excel/Easycarbo. Even a powerhead mounted in upper front RH corner pointing downwards towards the carpet might help as well.
> 
> Cheers,


master Po, thanks for the advice. I should explain myself a bit more than above.  ive actually removed the spraybar as the old sera filter wasnt putting enough flow out when I expanded the bar across the whole tank so I moved to one outlet on the left blowing across the back right hand side and along the front.  Ive just bought a tetratec ex1200 off george and was waiting for some 16mm tubing i ordered so the spraybar should be going back in soon.  

The stuff on the top RHS is riccia bobbling away, what you cant see in the shadows under the riccia is a fluval powerhead thats blowing down.  The intention is to replace this with a koralia nano so I should be well above the 10x turnover then and every bit of the tank should have some flow.  As you say i wont give up on the HC, i might get another pot of it to get a bit more planted around.  I'll remove that riccia to get more light in but I should point out that ive been running half lights at 48W T5 while the spirogyra got sorted (which thrives in high light/high nutrients from what ive read).  Im a bit nervous of turning the light up if needed as im not sure what nutrient/co2 id have to bump it up to to compensate for the increased light.

At the mo im using 6ml of easy carbo per day. haven't gone above this as I wasn't sure about upsetting the shrimps or fish with it being 125L.  co2 is running 24hrs and the bps is quite high (drop checker nearly reaching lime/yellow with 4dkh water).  Using 3ml per day of a combined mix of 1:2 TPN+:TPN.


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## ceg4048 (20 Dec 2008)

Hi Stu,
          All good stuff. As you noted, there's no point upping the lighting until you sort out the flow. TPN+ is the same as TPN but with added NPK so I don't get why you'd need both. If anything you'll be low on NPK. Is your tap high in N & P? If not, 3ml sounds really low. If you are using a lean mixture to deter the spirogyra that's fine, but if you go too far with this you'll cause more problems than you solve...

Cheers,


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## aaronnorth (20 Dec 2008)

Tank is looking good Stu, reminds me of the TGM tank


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## Dave Spencer (20 Dec 2008)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Hi Stu,
> All good stuff. As you noted, there's no point upping the lighting until you sort out the flow. TPN+ is the same as TPN but with added NPK so I don't get why you'd need both. If anything you'll be low on NPK. Is your tap high in N & P?
> Cheers,



You have the same tap water as me Stu, I think. Therefore, it is very soft with negligible N and P. I like to add a pinch of GH booster at water change, too, just to keep the Mg and Ca levels up a bit.

Your mosses look a bit sorry for themselves. Keep the Easycarbo away from them when you dose, as it can burn them.

Spirogyra thrives in just about any conditions, especially in our water, Stu. Manual removal with frequent water changes is the key, and keep the CO2 good all round the tank. Another black out may help. I have done a black out with Eleocharis without any ill effects. What I would say, though, is don`t prune them just prior to a black out. They will not like that at all.

Your plant mass is on the up, so things should turn for the better. With an improvement in plant health and some careful pruning of the stems and mosses this tank should like terrific.

As for the exposure and amateurish composition of the photograph.....well I can`t help you there.  

Dave.


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## Stu Worrall (21 Dec 2008)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> TPN+ is the same as TPN but with added NPK so I don't get why you'd need both. If anything you'll be low on NPK. Is your tap high in N & P? If not, 3ml sounds really low. If you are using a lean mixture to deter the spirogyra that's fine, but if you go too far with this you'll cause more problems than you solve...


I got this from Graham Edwards which he got from tropica whod been having trials of mixing them apparently. I had some TPN spare so thought i'd try a mix which seems to be working well. I have been keeping lean on the amount due to the spirogyra so may start upping the dosage slightly.



			
				aaronnorth said:
			
		

> Tank is looking good Stu, reminds me of the TGM tank


cheers aaron, think its got a long way to go before its up to TGM standards 



			
				Dave Spencer said:
			
		

> You have the same tap water as me Stu, I think. Therefore, it is very soft with negligible N and P. I like to add a pinch of GH booster at water change, too, just to keep the Mg and Ca levels up a bit.


with working for the water board I know the location of my water changes regularly between alwen res water and abstracted water from the dee so i think it changes. Watch for when it snows as apparently the melt from the farmers fields always casuses the levels of phosphates and stuff to jump around due to them leaching into the rivers.  It is always very soft though so i might do the same with the gh booster as I still got some of this from my RO days.



			
				Dave Spencer said:
			
		

> Your mosses look a bit sorry for themselves. Keep the Easycarbo away from them when you dose, as it can burn them.


The moss was full of algae so I applied some easycarbo to it at water change and, lets say, left it on a little too long so it resembled my garden at weed/feed time.  Its recovering now though with no algae  and geting greener so have learned from that little mistake.



			
				Dave Spencer said:
			
		

> Spirogyra thrives in just about any conditions, especially in our water, Stu. Manual removal with frequent water changes is the key, and keep the CO2 good all round the tank. Another black out may help. I have done a black out with Eleocharis without any ill effects. What I would say, though, is don`t prune them just prior to a black out. They will not like that at all.


Handy tip about the no prune before blackout, ill remember that.  doing two large water changes a week at the mo which seems to be working.



			
				Dave Spencer said:
			
		

> As for the exposure and amateurish composition of the photograph.....well I can`t help you there.


Git   ill get there one day...


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## Stu Worrall (5 Mar 2009)

Just a quick update of my tank.  Currently on month 5.  Just had a trim of the moss and rotala, some of the moss at the front im going to trim some more so it shapes tot he branch going into the aquasoil.  No problems with algae at the mo and shrimp are breeding nicely


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## George Farmer (5 Mar 2009)

Looks great, Stu!  The extensive use fine textures and moss makes it look very appealing.


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## Tony Swinney (5 Mar 2009)

Hi Stu

The tank looks really nice - love the mix of  plants you've got, it makes it very interesting to look at.   

Tony


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## LondonDragon (5 Mar 2009)

WOW tank is coming along nicely indeed Stu  Congrats mate


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## Stu Worrall (5 Mar 2009)

thanks all, im really pleased with it at the moment and have had no algae issues for a while now.  I changed a few things on the tank after advice and help with equipment from here which resulted in the algae just disappearing.

here are the things I changed.

Dumped in 20 red cherry shrimp (they worked wonders on the algae)
upgraded from 900lph sera filter to tetratec ex1200 filter.
moved from a spraybar to inlet and outlet on the back left. outlet runs right along the back then pushes the water left along the front.
lowered dosing, dosing now 2/3rd TPN and 1/3rd TPN+ mixed to 4ml daily, 5ml easycarbo daily now at 3ml.
lowered lighting to 3*24 watt t5 (removed one bulb)
put some activated carbon in the filter.


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## Superman (5 Mar 2009)

The photo gives the impression that the tank is huge and not a Rio 125.
I like what you have done and the hairgrass on the right looks fab. I would be inclined to start getting that a bit along the front but a much shorter plant in height, but that's just me.


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## JamesM (5 Mar 2009)

Wow, 5 months already! Its looking great, Stu, really inviting to the eye


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## aaronnorth (5 Mar 2009)

looking great Stu, that wood looks huge and it gives a great sense of depth.


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## Dave Spencer (5 Mar 2009)

Loving the mosses on the stone, Stu. That`s something I haven`t tried yet, but intend to.

Dave.


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## Stu Worrall (6 Mar 2009)

Superman said:
			
		

> The photo gives the impression that the tank is huge and not a Rio 125.
> I like what you have done and the hairgrass on the right looks fab. I would be inclined to start getting that a bit along the front but a much shorter plant in height, but that's just me.


Cheers SP,  id thought about grwoing some hairgrass at the front but im perservering with the HC at the moment as its still slowly spreading.  if it ever starts looking straggly ill replace it with hairgrass if ive not taken the tank down by then.



			
				JamesM said:
			
		

> Wow, 5 months already! Its looking great, Stu, really inviting to the eye


Its gone really quick, i had a surprise when I worked out the time the other day !



			
				aaronnorth said:
			
		

> looking great Stu, that wood looks huge and it gives a great sense of depth.


I really like the redmoore. got some extra bits from TGM the other week but havent put any moss on them yet. think im going to leave them bare as I like the contrast of the brown



			
				Dave Spencer said:
			
		

> Loving the mosses on the stone, Stu. That`s something I haven`t tried yet, but intend to.


Funily enough some of the fontalus on the stone grew by itself. it must have become detached from the wood, floated around the tank then attached itself and grown. it looks really natural where its landed.


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## John Starkey (6 Mar 2009)

Hi Stu,
i just read through the whole journal and i think its a very nice pleasing layout,i especially like the wood coming out of the rock with the moss on,the only thing i would have done different at the start was the lighting duration,i would have started with maybe six hours then upped it gradually,it may have saved you all your algae issues,but thats what makes aquascaping such a good hobby as we are always learning from each other,regards john.


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