# Beginner fert help please...



## FISHnLAB (30 Sep 2022)

Hi guys, I recently started my first planted tank and could use a hand with my nutrition. I'm not getting enough Nitrates or phosphates and am looking for advice on the best way to handle it.

Here's some info about my setup and routines...

Tank - 3 Gallon Rimless
Lighting - Nicrew RGB+W 24/7
Filtration - 3-Stage In Tank Power Filter(with mix of 3 types of biomedia) & 1 x small Air Stone
Soil & Fert - Seachem Flourite Black infused with API Root Tabs.
Water Column Ferts- The 2HR Aquarist APT 3 & Seachem Flourish Advance(both daily)
Hardscape - Mountain Stone & Spider Wood 

Let me know if you need anything else.

So, it has been 16 days since I planted and today is day 7 since a water change. I have been monitoring levels and everything looks good for the most part(aside from Nitrate and phosphate). The tank was running as an unplanted setup so it was pre-cycled for the most part(re-used filter & biomedia and didn't clean tank). Today is water change day and I just did some testing for Nitrates, Phosphates, and TDS. Results were as follows...

Temperature - 26.2C
Tap Water TDS - 45ppm
Tank Water TDS - 132ppm
NO3 - 0(or close to it)
PO4 - 0(or close to it)

This was the first time I went to a 7 day water change. I was doing one twice a week before that. Originally I was water column dosing API Leaf Zone but, switched to APT 3 one week ago to try and bring up N03 & PO4 levels. Obviously it didn't work. I get low levels of both a couple hours after dosing but, 0ppm the next day before the scheduled dose.

So, what should I do guys? I'm thinking about switching to ATP E instead as it has much higher levels of NO3 & PO4 but, know that consistency is best. The other option is getting a bottle of Seachem Flourish Phosphorus & Nitrogen to supplement the APT 3. I'm not sure what to do as I am too inexperienced. So, any help would be greatly appreciated. I can provide more pictures and whatever other info is needed. Thanks in advance👍.


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## FISHnLAB (30 Sep 2022)

Oh, I forgot to add my wildlife. The tank has... 

1 x Male Dragon Scale Plakat Betta 
1 x Zebra Nerite Snail


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## FISHnLAB (30 Sep 2022)

And, here is my plant list... 

1 x Bucephalandra Theia
1 x Anubias Nana "Wrinkle Leave" 
Valisinaria Fortifolia 
Hygrophilia Difformis 
Helanthium Tenellus "Green" 
Taxiphyllum "Spiky" 
Vesicularia Ferriei "Weeping" 
Salvinia Aruculata


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## Hufsa (30 Sep 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Originally I was water column dosing API Leaf Zone but, switched to APT 3 one week ago to try and bring up N03 & PO4 levels.


Yeah that tracks, I think API Leaf Zone is K and micronutrients only (from memory)



FISHnLAB said:


> Obviously it didn't work. I get low levels of both a couple hours after dosing but, 0ppm the next day before the scheduled dose.


K.I.S.S, dose more APT3.
Plants also have a feature called luxury uptake, which may mean they have taken up extra much and put it in storage for later.


FISHnLAB said:


> So, what should I do guys? I'm thinking about switching to ATP E instead as it has much higher levels of NO3 & PO4 but, know that consistency is best. The other option is getting a bottle of Seachem Flourish Phosphorus & Nitrogen to supplement the APT 3.


Use up your bottle of APT3 before considering getting a different product 
Dont get the Seachem ferts, they are too much water. If you want to buy APT EI when youre done with your current bottle you can do that, they are quite similar except APT EI is about twice as concentrated as the other. The nutrient ratios are almost the same.

Thanks for the detailed information 😊 Sorry I keep replying to all your posts 😆


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## xZaiox (30 Sep 2022)

I find the complete lack of nitrates interesting, are you 100% sure you did the test properly? Not saying it's impossible though. Your plants are also very green considering the lack of nitrates...

I'm going to copy/paste a previous comment I made about this (because I'm lazy ) - the API nitrate test kit requires you to vigorously shake the #2 bottle and the test tube afterwards for like a good minute each (give the bottle a whack on a tabletop if using this test kit). I believe it contains a substance that falls out of suspension and has to be knocked back in to give a result.

If the test kit isn't done properly (i.e the substance in the #2 bottle isn't in suspension) then it will give false readings of 0 every time.


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## FISHnLAB (30 Sep 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Yeah that tracks, I think API Leaf Zone is K and micronutrients only (from memory)
> 
> 
> K.I.S.S, dose more APT3.
> ...


Yep, Leaf Zone is just K2O & Fe, *no trace*. I figured if my bioload gets the NO3 & PO4 too high I can always go back to the Leaf Zone as it's basically a diluted APT 1 with no trace. Trace could be added with powder or Flourish Trace in a pinch.

Roger that and thanks tor the tip on luxury uptake, I'll read more about it👍. I finished a 50% water change, cleanup, trim and planted a bit more Rotalla Green and Helanthium Tenellus a couple of hours ago and I decided to just stay the course with APT 3 for now when I hadn't yet heard from anyone. I am likely dosing a little on the low side of the directions both because I am not sure of my actual water volume and am a bit nervous to give too much being inexperienced. My plants are growing and the floaters look ok to my untrained eye lol, so maybe I am just being a little over cautious?

I already have APT E on hand actually. I have a small bottle of that APT 3 & Leaf Zone.  Like you say, I heard how diluted Seachem's ferts were and that's what prompted me to go with APT. I got the Seachem Flourish Advance as I heard it's phytohormones were beneficial when planting and to speed up growth. I just considered Seachem's Nitrogen & Potassium because I can get them at the local pet store 3 blocks from my house😁. 

Ok, so considering I have both on hand, what do you think I should do? Continue the daily dose(maybe a touch more) APT 3? Or, switch to the suggested daily dose of APT E? My plan is to do weekly 50% water changes. What do you think? 

No problem, lol. No, I totally appreciate it, thank you so much👍. Any other help or constructive criticism you can offer is more then welcome. I am very new to this all.


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## FISHnLAB (30 Sep 2022)

xZaiox said:


> I find the complete lack of nitrates interesting, are you 100% sure you did the test properly? Not saying it's impossible though. Your plants are also very green considering the lack of nitrates...
> 
> I'm going to copy/paste a previous comment I made about this (because I'm lazy ) - the API nitrate test kit requires you to vigorously shake the #2 bottle and the test tube afterwards for like a good minute each (give the bottle a whack on a tabletop if using this test kit). I believe it contains a substance that falls out of suspension and has to be knocked back in to give a result.
> 
> If the test kit isn't done properly (i.e the substance in the #2 bottle isn't in suspension) then it will give false readings of 0 every time.


Yes, it is strange. And yes, I shake and bang the heck out of that sucker every time. Maybe because the tank has new hardscape and Substrate, is so new(16 days), and the beneficial bacteria hasn't caught up yet? Maybe because I went overboard on the biomedia(stock ceramic rings + Fluval Biomax +Seachem Matrix)? I'm not sure? Thanks for the help👍.


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## Hufsa (1 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Yep, Leaf Zone is just K2O & Fe, *no trace*. I figured if my bioload gets the NO3 & PO4 too high I can always go back to the Leaf Zone as it's basically a diluted APT 1 with no trace. Trace could be added with powder or Flourish Trace in a pinch.


Thanks for the correction , so its even worse than I remembered Uhh a "lightweight" type of fertilizer 😂 Sorry sorry. I know some people have success with this fert, I should cut it a little bit more slack.



FISHnLAB said:


> I am likely dosing a little on the low side of the directions both because I am not sure of my actual water volume and am a bit nervous to give too much being inexperienced. My plants are growing and the floaters look ok to my untrained eye lol, so maybe I am just being a little over cautious?


At the stage your tank is in I would rather give it too much ferts rather than too little, you have plants establishing new roots and underwater adapted leaves, and they are running through some of the reserves they came with from the store. 
But its not a good idea to let them run out too much, it tends to be harder to nurse something back to health rather than prevent the dip in health it in the first place. If you are changing a lot of water you are also removing a lot of the ferts regularly, water changes are more or less always a good thing, because you are diluting all the organic waste etc, but its really important to compensate with fertilizer addition. Trust me I know 😅 Ive had some problems in the past year going from low tech to high tech, and it turns out a large part of the issue was that I was changing too much water without adding enough nutrients back in.



FISHnLAB said:


> I already have APT E on hand actually. I have a small bottle of that APT 3 & Leaf Zone.  Like you say, I heard how diluted Seachem's ferts were and that's what prompted me to go with APT. I got the Seachem Flourish Advance as I heard it's phytohormones were beneficial when planting and to speed up growth. I just considered Seachem's Nitrogen & Potassium because I can get them at the local pet store 3 blocks from my house😁.


Ah well you can use one of the APTs or whatever you feel like then, im a bit tight with my money so I will usually advise using up the bottle you have on hand if the contents are workable (sometimes you just have to add more of it to make a difference) and the money has already been spent on it so youre not getting that back, might as well make it work, you know.

Out of curiosity what exactly are you dosing of the APT3 right now, and what is your tank volume? And what is your water change frequency and percentage?
Hang on I need to go back and reread the original post more thoroughly...



FISHnLAB said:


> Soil & Fert - Seachem Flourite Black infused with API Root Tabs.


So not an enriched substrate, and some root tabs that only have K and iron. I would definitely make sure your tank gets enough liquid ferts (proper one with N and P)



FISHnLAB said:


> Water Column Ferts- The 2HR Aquarist APT 3 & Seachem Flourish Advance(both daily)


Would indeed like to know how much you are adding, I can plug it in to the calculator and get us some actual ppm's to look at  



FISHnLAB said:


> Tap Water TDS - 45ppm


Your tap water is beautiful, even better than mine if this value is correct. Quite soft water and relatively clear of nutrients I would assume? (Dont flaunt this one in front of the englishmen too much, they are likely to start crying)



FISHnLAB said:


> Tank Water TDS - 132ppm





FISHnLAB said:


> Hardscape - Mountain Stone


I wonder if this stone is contributing to your tank TDS, do you know if it is limestone based, aka one of those scaping rocks that will raise hardness? Its not a problem Im just trying to make a sense of the overall picture
Do you add any GH powder or similar to your tap water before adding it to the tank?



FISHnLAB said:


> This was the first time I went to a 7 day water change. I was doing one twice a week before that.


Ok so this week got one water change, before you did two. Ill take this into account when I look at your dosing



FISHnLAB said:


> I get low levels of both a couple hours after dosing but, 0ppm the next day before the scheduled dose.


Sometimes the nitrate test kit can act up and show low values even when that should be impossible. Ive had this happen to me before. But since your phosphate test is also reading low im more inclined to think you might be running a bit lean instead. Many people on this forum are not huge fans of test kits, everyone has their reasons for it, im sort of in the middle on them, I think they can be useful in some situations, but we should be careful not to base our decisions solely on them, especially if the plants are telling us otherwise.



FISHnLAB said:


> Ok, so considering I have both on hand, what do you think I should do? Continue the daily dose(maybe a touch more) APT 3? Or, switch to the suggested daily dose of APT E? My plan is to do weekly 50% water changes. What do you think?


More fertssssss. Doesnt matter which APT just get some in the tank 



FISHnLAB said:


> Maybe because I went overboard on the biomedia(stock ceramic rings + Fluval Biomax +Seachem Matrix)?


This is not the cause, 100%



FISHnLAB said:


> Any other help or constructive criticism you can offer is more then welcome. I am very new to this all.


A tip is that when you quote another member, it is possible to break their quote into smaller sections and reply below each section. This makes it a lot easier to know exactly what you are responding to, and you can cut out sections that are not being discussed.

Lastly, I have been suspiciously eyeing that plant of yours that you have listed as Vallisneria, im willing to bet a decent sum of money that the big grassy plant in your tank is an Ophiopogon species, which is not an aquatic plant and should not have been sold to you. You should remove this plant as it will not grow and eventually just start rotting.


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## FISHnLAB (1 Oct 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Thanks for nthe correction , so its even worse than I remembered Uhh a "lightweight" type of fertilizer 😂 Sorry sorry. I know some people have success with this fert, I should cut it a little bit more slack.


No problem👍. Yep, just 3% K20 & 0.1% Fe per dose lol. It is less then half the price of APT 1 though too. Yep, every one of MD Fish Tanks Low techs run very successfully on just that and API Root Tabs so it still can work in certain situations.


Hufsa said:


> At the stage your tank is in I would rather give it too much ferts rather than too little, you have plants establishing new roots and underwater adapted leaves, and they are running through some of the reserves they came with from the store.
> But its not a good idea to let them run out too much, it tends to be harder to nurse something back to health rather than prevent the dip in health it in the first place. If you are changing a lot of water you are also removing a lot of the ferts regularly, water changes are more or less always a good thing, because you are diluting all the organic waste etc, but its really important to compensate with fertilizer addition. Trust me I know 😅 Ive had some problems in the past year going from low tech to high tech, and it turns out a large part of the issue was that I was changing too much water without adding enough nutrients back in.


Ok good to know, I just didn't want to burn or kill anything with ferts as I am too new to this to know any better. I'll wait for your final opinion but, will likely up the dosage.


Hufsa said:


> Ah well you can use one of the APTs or whatever you feel like then, im a bit tight with my money so I will usually advise using up the bottle you have on hand if the contents are workable (sometimes you just have to add more of it to make a difference) and the money has already been spent on it so youre not getting that back, might as well make it work, you know.


Yes totally. I'm with you on this one and definitely like to use up what I buy and save where I can. I only got the bottle of APT E as I had planned to try EI after my tank was established to see the difference. I'll likely just stick to the APT 3 for now as advised.


Hufsa said:


> Out of curiosity what exactly are you dosing of the APT3 right now, and what is your tank volume? And what is your water change frequency and percentage?
> Hang on I need to go back and reread the original post more thoroughly...


I have been dosing 4 drops(0.2mL) APT 3 daily. My tank is a 3 US Gallon and I am not sure of the actual water volume so I just used 2/3rds as a guess. So, 2 gallons and rounded down to be safe...

3mL/100L = 0.03mL x 2 Gallons(7.570823568L) = 0.227124707mL

0.227124707mL/0.05(the size of an average medical dropper droplette) = 4.54249414 or 4 drops rounded down.

The 2HR Aquarist recommendeds 3mL per 100L daily. Or, 5mL 4 times per week.

For the Seachem Flourish Advance I'm giving 10 drops per day. They suggest 0.25mL per gallon.


Hufsa said:


> So not an enriched substrate, and some root tabs that only have K and iron. I would definitely make sure your tank gets enough liquid ferts (proper one with N and P)


Nope, just fracted clay and man if you think that black diamond gravel is sharp, you should see this stuff. Luckily I have no bottom feeders in the tank and just a Nerite Snail.

Oh, API Root Tabs have full NPK and iron too. I added a pic of their GA...


Hufsa said:


> Would indeed like to know how much you are adding, I can plug it in to the calculator and get us some actual ppm's to look at


Thanks, that would be great👍.


Hufsa said:


> Your tap water is beautiful, even better than mine if this value is correct. Quite soft water and relatively clear of nutrients I would assume? (Dont flaunt this one in front of the englishmen too much, they are likely to start crying)


Yes, she's pretty good aside from the high silicates(I'm not sure how high as I haven't bought a test kit yet). I get 45ppm +/- 2 ppm consistently over the month. Here are some more tap water test results just in case it helps...

pH - 7.8ppm
GH - 89.9ppm
KH - 71.6ppm
NO3 - 0ppm
NH3 - 0ppm
NO2 - 0ppm


Hufsa said:


> I wonder if this stone is contributing to your tank TDS, do you know if it is limestone based, aka one of those scaping rocks that will raise hardness? Its not a problem Im just trying to make a sense of the overall picture
> Do you add any GH powder or similar to your tap water before adding it to the tank?


I'm not sure, I have not done a bucket TDS test to see. It is Caribsea's Mountain Stone bought from PetSmart and is specifically for aquarium use. I soaked it for two teeks and scrubbed it thoroughly before adding to my tank too.

I have Seachem Equilibrium in stock but, I have not added any yet. Should I be adding any?


Hufsa said:


> Ok so this week got one water change, before you did two. Ill take this into account when I look at your dosing


Yes, I figured I would do extra for a while after I planted. But, when I saw levels low, I thought maybe I was doing too many so I went to the standard 1 x 50% a week system. Thanks again for helping.


Hufsa said:


> Sometimes the nitrate test kit can act up and show low values even when that should be impossible. Ive had this happen to me before. But since your phosphate test is also reading low im more inclined to think you might be running a bit lean instead. Many people on this forum are not huge fans of test kits, everyone has their reasons for it, im sort of in the middle on them, I think they can be useful in some situations, but we should be careful not to base our decisions solely on them, especially if the plants are telling us otherwise.


Good to know, I have always questioned the accuracy of these tests but, refraction style can get expensive.


Hufsa said:


> More fertssssss. Doesnt matter which APT just get some in the tank


Ok, I'll wait to hear back on how much but, will give 5 drops APT 3 today(1 extra drop) to start with.


Hufsa said:


> This is not the cause, 100%


Ok, I thought maybe because Seachem Matrix is supposed to lower Nitrates it might be contributing. I have about 3 times the biomedia in my filter as what came with the aquarium kit. Good to know it isn't hurting things as I was trying to increase surface area for benefitial bacteria in this small tank.


Hufsa said:


> A tip is that when you quote another member, it is possible to break their quote into smaller sections and reply below each section. This makes it a lot easier to know exactly what you are responding to, and you can cut out sections that are not being discussed.


Roger that and have adapted my posting style. Thanks for the heads up👍.


Hufsa said:


> Lastly, I have been suspiciously eyeing that plant of yours that you have listed as Vallisneria, im willing to bet a decent sum of money that the big grassy plant in your tank is an Ophiopogon species, which is not an aquatic plant and should not have been sold to you. You should remove this plant as it will not grow and eventually just start rotting.


Oh really? It was labeled as Jungle Val at that pet store 3 blocks from my house. It was sold fully submerged with a ceramic weighting ring and foam around the root bunch to hold it down. I picked the nicest bunch and split a small bunch off it to add to a small 1 Gallon Bowl aquascape I also have. I'm gonna be pretty upset if I have to take it out as it already replaced a Hastifolia I ending up deciding was too large for the tank. Any way to tell for sure? Should I jusyt leave it and see if it thrives or melts first? It's doing great so far other then one yellow leaf tip and some diatoms on the leaves that I scrubbed off during yesterdays cleaning and WC.

Thank you so much for all of your help Hufsa, I can't tell you how much it's appreciated. I wish there was a way I could reciprocate. I find it hard being a rookie as I don't have a lot to offer other members but, like to help out if I can. As I learn more I will try to help newer members as I can...


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## Hufsa (1 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Ok good to know, I just didn't want to burn or kill anything with ferts as I am too new to this to know any better.


It takes a lot of ferts to burn or kill the plants.
Usually the worst that could happen is if you suddenly add a lot more fertilizer into a system that is based on the lean method, you will get a lot of algae.
And if its an EI based tank, it can take _a lot_ of ferts without anything really happening because the system is built around excess anyway.
I used to dose full EI targets, 30 NO3, 3 PO4, 30 K, 0,5 Fe in my low tech tank. There was no way my non-CO2-injected tank actually needed that much but it worked fine for the majority of the plants.
The uptake of a low tech tank is usually assumed to be somewhere between 1/3rd to 1/10th of what a CO2 injected tank uses.


FISHnLAB said:


> I'll wait for your final opinion but, will likely up the dosage.


Ooh final opinion..  


FISHnLAB said:


> Yes totally. I'm with you on this one and definitely like to use up what I buy and save where I can. I only got the bottle of APT E as I had planned to try EI after my tank was established to see the difference. I'll likely just stick to the APT 3 for now as advised.


For the fun of it I decided to put together the actual amounts of APT 3/Complete and APT EI. Since I know a few people who dose 1/2 APT EI as a way to get cheaper APT 3.



So APT EI is unsurprisingly a richer fertilizer if youre dosing the recommended amount, but if you dose half of it you almost get APT 3 except for a few differences.
Between 1/2 APT EI and APT 3: NO3 is more or less the same, PO4 too, K is half as much and Mg is a bit less than half. (These last two points might be of interest to @erwin123 although he has probably already ran these numbers.)
If you want to, lets say use up that bottle of APT 3 before you crack open the APT EI, dosing 1,5 times the recommended dosing would give you;



That would give you something closeish to APT EI. Or you could do twice the normal APT 3 dose, its entirely up to you.
If this seems like its a very big deal then you may be comforted to hear that its really not, the plants will be pretty happy as long as they get "some" rather than "none" as Darrel @dw1305  would say. Especially with easy plants.
Im not a very moderate person always, but if I was to suggest the moderate option I would say just increase to 1,5 times the suggested dose of APT 3 and see how it goes, and when that bottle runs out you can do suggested dose of APT EI.

After this you will just need to give the tank and the plants some *time*.
Time, that slow b*stard 😅



FISHnLAB said:


> I have been dosing 4 drops(0.2mL) APT 3 daily. My tank is a 3 US Gallon and I am not sure of the actual water volume so I just used 2/3rds as a guess. So, 2 gallons and rounded down to be safe...
> 3mL/100L = 0.03mL x 2 Gallons(7.570823568L) = 0.227124707mL
> 0.227124707mL/0.05(the size of an average medical dropper droplette) = 4.54249414 or 4 drops rounded down.
> The 2HR Aquarist recommendeds 3mL per 100L daily. Or, 5mL 4 times per week.
> For the Seachem Flourish Advance I'm giving 10 drops per day. They suggest 0.25mL per gallon.


Alright, so right on the recommended dosing give or take a rounding here and there.
Too lazy to work out the dosing on the Flourish Advance, mostly because its gonna be a bunch of zeroes anyway and not add up to anything that would tip the scales either way  (My excuse is that ive been making ferts for hours already so im feeling kinda done  )


FISHnLAB said:


> Oh, API Root Tabs have full NPK and iron too. I added a pic of their GA...


Ah interesting, I gave those tabs a quick google before I condemned them last time, but I must have pulled up the wrong product then or maybe they have more than one kind? Note to self; thorough googling before scathing reviews, getting embarrassing to be wrong all the time.



FISHnLAB said:


> Yes, she's pretty good aside from the high silicates(I'm not sure how high as I haven't bought a test kit yet).


Wait.. how do you know you have high silicates then?



FISHnLAB said:


> pH - 7.8ppm
> GH - 89.9ppm
> KH - 71.6ppm


Im not used to seeing GH and KH reported in ppm, do you know what the equivalent values are in degrees?



FISHnLAB said:


> I'm not sure, I have not done a bucket TDS test to see. It is Caribsea's Mountain Stone bought from PetSmart and is specifically for aquarium use. I soaked it for two teeks and scrubbed it thoroughly before adding to my tank too.


Its not a problem if it is the stone, its just a free source of Calcium that slowly adds itself to the tank 


FISHnLAB said:


> I have Seachem Equilibrium in stock but, I have not added any yet. Should I be adding any?


Nah I mostly asked out of idle curiosity. A part of the EI regime is to ensure enough Calcium and Magnesium in the water too, some people overlook this part. Usually there will be enough Calcium in the water if there is some kind of GH value. But sometimes people have super soft water and then they could potentially run into some exotic issues if they skip over the GH part of the EI tutorials. Calcium is a problematic nutrient to add to a solution with other nutrients, but luckily most tap water has enough Calcium already. So fertilizer manufacturers then add "enough" Magnesium in their fert to make sure the plants dont run out, and everything is good.



FISHnLAB said:


> Ok, I thought maybe because Seachem Matrix is supposed to lower Nitrates it might be contributing. I have about 3 times the biomedia in my filter as what came with the aquarium kit. Good to know it isn't hurting things as I was trying to increase surface area for benefitial bacteria in this small tank.


The ability of various biomedia to reduce nitrates may be somewhat overstated



FISHnLAB said:


> Oh really? It was labeled as Jungle Val at that pet store 3 blocks from my house. It was sold fully submerged with a ceramic weighting ring and foam around the root bunch to hold it down. I picked the nicest bunch and split a small bunch off it to add to a small 1 Gallon Bowl aquascape I also have. I'm gonna be pretty upset if I have to take it out as it already replaced a Hastifolia I ending up deciding was too large for the tank. Any way to tell for sure? Should I jusyt leave it and see if it thrives or melts first? It's doing great so far other then one yellow leaf tip and some diatoms on the leaves that I scrubbed off during yesterdays cleaning and WC.


Yeah im sure, sorry. The leaves are solid opaque which means its not a Vallisneria, and the leaves are too thick and the wrong shade of green to be Cyperus helferi.
You are entitled to get somewhat irritated at the pet store and demand an actual aquatic plant to replace it.
You should take it out and get something aquatic in its place sooner rather than later, so that the replacement can start growing.



FISHnLAB said:


> Thank you so much for all of your help Hufsa, I can't tell you how much it's appreciated. I wish there was a way I could reciprocate. I find it hard being a rookie as I don't have a lot to offer other members but, like to help out if I can. As I learn more I will try to help newer members as I can...


Oh you are very welcome 😊 I quite like helping out when I can and to hear that it is appreciated to such a degree is really all I could want 😊😊


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## FISHnLAB (2 Oct 2022)

Hufsa said:


> It takes a lot of ferts to burn or kill the plants.
> Usually the worst that could happen is if you suddenly add a lot more fertilizer into a system that is based on the lean method, you will get a lot of algae.
> And if its an EI based tank, it can take _a lot_ of ferts without anything really happening because the system is built around excess anyway.
> I used to dose full EI targets, 30 NO3, 3 PO4, 30 K, 0,5 Fe in my low tech tank. There was no way my non-CO2-injected tank actually needed that much but it worked fine for the majority of the plants.
> The uptake of a low tech tank is usually assumed to be somewhere between 1/3rd to 1/10th of what a CO2 injected tank uses.


Good to know, that makes me feel more confident with the ferts. Thanks👍.


Hufsa said:


> Ooh final opinion..


Yes, after you did fert calculations😁. Thanks.


Hufsa said:


> For the fun of it I decided to put together the actual amounts of APT 3/Complete and APT EI. Since I know a few people who dose 1/2 APT EI as a way to get cheaper APT 3.
> View attachment 195099
> So APT EI is unsurprisingly a richer fertilizer if youre dosing the recommended amount, but if you dose half of it you almost get APT 3 except for a few differences.
> Between 1/2 APT EI and APT 3: NO3 is more or less the same, PO4 too, K is half as much and Mg is a bit less than half. (These last two points might be of interest to @erwin123 although he has probably already ran these numbers.)
> ...


Ok, thank you very much for that. Seeing it in a table made it very easy to compare. I think I will up my dose of APT 3 from 4-5 drops per day to 7 drops per day and see what happens like you say. Then when the bottle is done(like a year if I don't get a larger tank lol) I will try switching to a regular regimen of APT E.


Hufsa said:


> After this you will just need to give the tank and the plants some *time*.
> Time, that slow b*stard 😅


Yes, yes time is indeed slow lol. That is why I decided a few weeks ago to kybosh my plan of going low tech first with the new 90. It will be getting plenty of light, ferts, and healthy dose of CO2 to speed things up a bit(hopefully a lot). I am going to shoot for a supercharged dutch style aquascape off the hop and I can always dial it back if I get sick of trimming(right now I want more).


Hufsa said:


> Alright, so right on the recommended dosing give or take a rounding here and there.


Yep, and rounded towards the conservative side too.


Hufsa said:


> Too lazy to work out the dosing on the Flourish Advance, mostly because its gonna be a bunch of zeroes anyway and not add up to anything that would tip the scales either way  (My excuse is that ive been making ferts for hours already so im feeling kinda done  )


No problem, it's mainly trace and phytohormones anyway. I appreciate all the work you did already. Thanks.


Hufsa said:


> Ah interesting, I gave those tabs a quick google before I condemned them last time, but I must have pulled up the wrong product then or maybe they have more than one kind? Note to self; thorough googling before scathing reviews, getting embarrassing to be wrong all the time.


Lol, yeah they are better then I thought too. A descent low cost option for infusing some aquasoil but, not great for adding once the tank is full as they are super crumbly and disolve a bunch before you can get them under the soil. It's manageable but, not great.


Hufsa said:


> Wait.. how do you know you have high silicates then?


I don't for sure. Before I went planted, I had persistent diatom problems that were quickly cleared up with Seachem PhosGuard(and promptly came back when it started to get depleted) and considering I had tested for Phosphates and they were low to nil, that was the conclusion I drew whilst always planing to buy a Silicate test kit.


Hufsa said:


> I'm not used to seeing GH and KH reported in ppm, do you know what the equivalent values are in degrees?


Sorry, I really should switch to degrees...

pH - 7.8
GH - 5dKH
KH - 4dKH

That is tap water, not tank water.


Hufsa said:


> Its not a problem if it is the stone, its just a free source of Calcium that slowly adds itself to the tank


Roger that.


Hufsa said:


> Nah I mostly asked out of idle curiosity. A part of the EI regime is to ensure enough Calcium and Magnesium in the water too, some people overlook this part. Usually there will be enough Calcium in the water if there is some kind of GH value. But sometimes people have super soft water and then they could potentially run into some exotic issues if they skip over the GH part of the EI tutorials. Calcium is a problematic nutrient to add to a solution with other nutrients, but luckily most tap water has enough Calcium already. So fertilizer manufacturers then add "enough" Magnesium in their fert to make sure the plants dont run out, and everything is good.


Yes, a calcium test kit is on my list so I can use it with the GH one to get a rough idea of Calcium and Magnesium ratio. I hear it is important for my Nerite Snail Henry to have enough calcium. His shell looks great so far but, I have only had him for a couple of weeks. 

I also plan to get an Iron test kit from Nutrafin and a Redox meter. Any other test equipment or kits that you recommend? 


Hufsa said:


> The ability of various biomedia to reduce nitrates may be somewhat overstated


I don't doubt it, that seams to be a theme in this hobby🙄.


Hufsa said:


> Yeah im sure, sorry. The leaves are solid opaque which means its not a Vallisneria, and the leaves are too thick and the wrong shade of green to be Cyperus helferi.
> You are entitled to get somewhat irritated at the pet store and demand an actual aquatic plant to replace it.
> You should take it out and get something aquatic in its place sooner rather than later, so that the replacement can start growing.


Any idea what it is so I can tell them when I bring it back? Not in a rush to pull it out but, I guess no choice. I'll see what they have at PetSmart and that small petstore today when I'm out. Or, I could just fill that whole back corner with Rotalla Green...


Hufsa said:


> Oh you are very welcome 😊 I quite like helping out when I can and to hear that it is appreciated to such a degree is really all I could want 😊😊


Thanks again👍. It has definitely been very nice having someone to help mentor me a bit. This is a very large and sometimes intimidating rabbit hole of a hobby... I'm sure you know lol. I hope to become a master at it in short order😁.


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## Hufsa (2 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Any idea what it is so I can tall them when I bring it back?


Ophiopogon japonicus, there are a few different cultivars of this species. The common name is Mondo Grass. 
If they need a different source than "some plant lady on the internet told me", you can show them this link
Unfortunately low quality pet stores (low quality meaning they dont give a ****) commonly stock several species of non aquatic plants. Since they dont have any moral qualms about selling plants that will never thrive under water, I bet they make a nice sum of money from people who buy the terrestrial plants, slowly watch them die, and then assume they did something wrong and come back in the store to buy another pot and try again.


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## sparkyweasel (2 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Lol, yeah they are better then I thought too. A descent low cost option for infusing some aquasoil but, not great for adding once the tank is full as they are super crumbly and disolve a bunch before you can get them under the soil. It's manageable but, not great.


You could try freezing them inside ice cubes; the ice will hold them together long enough for you to get them into position before it melts away.


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## FISHnLAB (2 Oct 2022)

sparkyweasel said:


> You could try freezing them inside ice cubes; the ice will hold them together long enough for you to get them into position before it melts away.


Ah, good idea. Thanks.


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## FISHnLAB (2 Oct 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Ophiopogon japonicus, there are a few different cultivars of this species. The common name is Mondo Grass.
> If they need a different source than "some plant lady on the internet told me", you can show them this link


Thank you for the information once again😊.


Hufsa said:


> Unfortunately low quality pet stores (low quality meaning they dont give a ****) commonly stock several species of non aquatic plants. Since they dont have any moral qualms about selling plants that will never thrive under water, I bet they make a nice sum of money from people who buy the terrestrial plants, slowly watch them die, and then assume they did something wrong and come back in the store to buy another pot and try again.


 Pretty sad really😔. A pretty good pet store normally but, there getting called on this one.


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## erwin123 (3 Oct 2022)

I think a 4 bottle fertilisation routine for a 3 gallon betta tank is way too complicated..... unless the APT3 is defective (mislabelled APT1?), there's no reason why it shouldn't be sufficient for a 3 gal tank. From the photos, the plants seem green enough. More importantly, you have floaters that can give a clear picture of nutrient deficiencies


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## MichaelJ (3 Oct 2022)

erwin123 said:


> I think a 4 bottle fertilisation routine for a 3 gallon betta tank is way too complicated


Agreed - this a low-tech with all easy plants. One (1) complete fertilizer such as APT 3 or Tropica Specialized following the instruction on the bootle should suffice.

Cheers,
Michael


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## FISHnLAB (3 Oct 2022)

erwin123 said:


> I think a 4 bottle fertilisation routine for a 3 gallon betta tank is way too complicated..... unless the APT3 is defective (mislabelled APT1?), there's no reason why it shouldn't be sufficient for a 3 gal tank. From the photos, the plants seem green enough. More importantly, you have floaters that can give a clear picture of nutrient deficiencies


Hi, thanks for the reply👍.

That's not a routine but, just all the liquid ferts I have on hand/own. I'm dosing APT 3(for Macro+Micro/Trace) & Seachem Flourish Advance(for Phytohormones) daily for this tank. If you read the rest of the thread, you will see that Hufsa has suggested that I up the dose of APT 3 as I was likely on the conservative side. I fed 7 drops today instead of the 4-5 I was giving and am going to see how it goes. I'll report back...


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## FISHnLAB (3 Oct 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> Agreed - this a low-tech with all easy plants. One (1) complete fertilizer such as APT 3 or Tropica Specialized following the instruction on the bootle should suffice.
> 
> Cheers,
> Michael


Hi and thanks for the reply👍.

Yes, all but the Weeping moss and Rotalla Green which are Medium.

The issue was I was not seeing enough Nitrates or Phosphates in the tank after 7 days without a water change. I think we have it sorted now but, I will report back on results...

Edit: I just remembered Rotala Green is Medium as well.


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## FISHnLAB (3 Oct 2022)

Ok, I'm going to place a plant order to replace that Mondo Grass. It's still in the tank but, I will pull it out on water change day(Friday) and bring it back to the pet store for a refund.

I'm thinking regular Rotala Rotundifolia as I figure it's easy to propagate and it can go right behind the Rotala Green I already have in there, which is growing nicely, making a nice stand of 2 different coloured Rotalas. I also am going to get some Phyllanthus Fluitans to mix in with my Salvinia Aruculata and add some colour.

Descent plan? Think it will look ok? @Hufsa


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## Hufsa (3 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Descent plan? Think it will look ok? @Hufsa


Sounds good to me


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## FISHnLAB (3 Oct 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Sounds good to me


Good, good thanks👍. I'll post some pics when I get it all done but, plants don't ship until next Monday so it will likely be towards the end of next week...


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## Hufsa (3 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> I'll post some pics when I get it all done but, plants don't ship until next Monday so it will likely be towards the end of next week...


Ill let it slide for this time but make sure it does not happen again 😠  😉



MichaelJ said:


> Agreed - this a low-tech with all easy plants. One (1) complete fertilizer such as APT 3 or Tropica Specialized following the instruction on the bootle should suffice.


However I must apologise @FISHnLAB , im not sure what happened but I had misunderstood if your tank was a CO2-injected or a non CO2-injected tank. 
I could have sworn I saw a bottle under the tank and some slim tubing, but when I read @MichaelJ 's comment I realized I never actually confirmed this with you.
If youre indeed not using CO2 injection at this point then suggested APT dose should have you covered, as this fert (both APT Complete and EI) are designed to cover CO2-injected tanks and their relatively higher demand.


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## MichaelJ (3 Oct 2022)

Hufsa said:


> ut when I read @MichaelJ 's comment I realized I never actually confirmed this with you.


The thing under the tank is obviously the kerosene heater for the tank!  tsk tsk...      .... I didn't even notice it to be honest, I just assumed  

Cheers,
Michael


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## FISHnLAB (4 Oct 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Ill let it slide for this time but make sure it does not happen again 😠  😉


😂


Hufsa said:


> However I must apologise @FISHnLAB , im not sure what happened but I had misunderstood if your tank was a CO2-injected or a non CO2-injected tank.
> I could have sworn I saw a bottle under the tank and some slim tubing, but when I read @MichaelJ 's comment I realized I never actually confirmed this with you.


No, this tank is *Not using CO2. *It is about as high tech as it can get other then that though for such a small tank. The slim tubing you see is coming from an air pump and going to a small air stone at the back left of the tank by the Mondo Grass. The white thing is a valve to adjust the flow. I'm running that and a 3-Stage Internal Power with a very low flow rate due to my pal Chester the betta. Between the two I have pretty good gas transfer. 


Hufsa said:


> If youre indeed not using CO2 injection at this point then suggested APT dose should have you covered, as this fert (both APT Complete and EI) are designed to cover CO2-injected tanks and their relatively higher demand.


Ok, if my Nitrate and Phosphate levels don't come up by the end of the water change period again this week then what should I do?


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## FISHnLAB (4 Oct 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> The thing under the tank is obviously the kerosene heater for the tank!  tsk tsk...      .... I didn't even notice it to be honest, I just assumed
> 
> Cheers,
> Michael


Bahaha, you guys are hilarious😂.

It is an old heat lamp fixture I had from a Terrarium housing a Uromastyx Ocellata(Rusty) many years ago. I stuck a cheap Noma LED Full Spectrum Grow bulb in it as a make shift propagation tank while I await my new 90. I needed somewhere to put all the leftovers and clippings after I converted this 3 Gallon to planted. In hindsight, I probably should have just sprung for a cheap tank setup but, I used what I had on hand lol. It's definitely a bit Frankenstein🤖 but, for some reason I kind of like it😊...


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## MichaelJ (4 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Bahaha, you guys are hilarious😂.
> 
> It is an old heat lamp fixture I had from a Terrarium housing a Uromastyx Ocellata(Rusty) many years ago. I stuck a cheap Noma LED Full Spectrum Grow bulb in it as a make shift propagation tank while I await my new 90. I needed somewhere to put all the leftovers and clippings after I converted this 3 Gallon to planted. In hindsight, I probably should have just sprung for a cheap tank setup but, I used what I had on hand lol. It's definitely a bit Frankenstein🤖 but, for some reason I kind of like it😊...



Hey @FISHnLAB,  you are a great addition to the forum!  👍

Cheers,
Michael


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## FISHnLAB (4 Oct 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> Hey @FISHnLAB,  you are a great addition to the forum!  👍
> 
> Cheers,
> Michael


Thanks Mr J, you're not so bad yourself🍻.


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## FISHnLAB (4 Oct 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Ill let it slide for this time but make sure it does not happen again 😠  😉


Well, looks like you won't have to wait so long Hufsa, my Rotala & RR Floater just shipped so it will be here Thursday at the latest. Perfect, right in time for water change day😁.


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## FISHnLAB (5 Oct 2022)

Well, that was quick. These are from the only in-vitro aquatic plant producer in Canada apparently. I wanted to try them in anticipation of the new tank build. Planting now...

Edit:As pointed out by Michael J, there are other in-vitro plant breeders in the US too.


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## FISHnLAB (5 Oct 2022)

There, how's that look?


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## MichaelJ (5 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> These are from the only in-vitro aquatic plant producer in North America apparently.


Hi @FISHnLAB ,

Not quite:

Aquarium Plants Factory from California, USA








						APF Tissue Culture | Aquarium Plants Factory®
					

Tissue Culture plants also known as in vitro plants. It's a collection of techniques used to maintain or grow plant cells, tissues or organs under sterile conditions on a nutrient culture medium of known composition. Tissue Culture Plants are 100% Snails, Algae & Disease Free!




					www.aquariumplantsfactory.com
				




Aquatic Arts from Indiana, USA





						Tissue Culture Plants
					

If something is listed as sold out and you are interested in getting some please sign up to be notified once it goes back in stock! You may go to any sold out listing and click on the “email me when available” button to sign up to be notified the instant we are able to put something back in...




					aquaticarts.com
				




 I am sure there are more, but these are the ones I have bought  plants from in the past. Never bought In-vitro / tissue cultures though.

Congrats and good luck with your plants! 👍


Cheers,
Michael


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## FISHnLAB (5 Oct 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> Hi @FISHnLAB ,
> 
> Not quite:
> 
> ...


Sorry, it was in Canada I believe, not North America...

Thanks👍.


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## FISHnLAB (5 Oct 2022)

It's so bare at the back now. And, on to the waiting... Lol


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## MichaelJ (5 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> It's so bare at the back now. And, on to the waiting... Lol



LOL Yep, this hobby is not conducive to the mentality of instant gratification!

Your tank look really nice! I like that center piece wood. 

Cheers,
Michael


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## FISHnLAB (5 Oct 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> LOL Yep, this hobby is not conducive to the mentality of instant gratification!
> 
> Your tank look really nice! I like that center piece wood.
> 
> ...


Yep definitely not😂. I have never been the most patient person either so maybe this hobby will be beneficial to me in more ways then one lol.

Seeing the slow progress prompted me to throw out my start with low tech plan for my new tank. It will be getting CO2 and a pH controller to run it right off the hop now lol. I'm sure I'll get tired of trimming eventually but, I can always turn off the bottle...

Thanks Michael. It is spider wood I got off of Amazon. I boiled it with some red moor wood(I believe) to give it a more reddish hue and it worked out nicely. I have a bunch more pieces currently soaking in anticipation of my new build. I'm going to use Mountain Stone and that same wood for my big tank too...

Any pics of your tanks?


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## FISHnLAB (14 Oct 2022)

Hey guys, the new growth on my Hygrophilia Difformis is coming in very light and almost white and see through in places. The pics make it look better then in real life(it actually quite a bit worse in person)...



Also, the new growth on my in-vitro Rotala Rotundifolia is looking off too(short, fat, and light green)...






Iron deficiency? Maybe because of high calcium leaching from my Mountain Stone? ATP 3 use EDTA Iron I'm guessing? What do you think? Suggested course of action? Thanks guys👍.


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## FISHnLAB (14 Oct 2022)

Also, my Rotala Green... Should I top it now and replant the new growth, to get rid of the bad parts, to prevent access organic waste or wait longer? It was in rough shape due my failures when originally planting it in clumps(it almost died completely but, I saved it) but, now it seams to be growing ok(you tell me lol)...






I transplanted some tops into a beaker and they are dojng well too. As is the small garden I'm propagating...


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## plantnoobdude (14 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Hey guys, the new growth on my Hygrophilia Difformis is coming in very light and almost white and see through in places. The pics make it look better then in real life(it actually quite a bit worse in person)...
> View attachment 195715
> Also, the new growth on my in-vitro Rotala Rotundifolia is looking off too(short, fat, and light green)...
> View attachment 195717
> ...


Rotala looks perfect to me, plants have different forms to adapt to conditions. I can’t see much wrong with the hygrophila either, I think you’re fine. A top down shot for the hygro may help.


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## FISHnLAB (14 Oct 2022)

Here is an updated tank pic too for anyone interested. I'm about to do my weekly water change and maintenance...



I was going to wait for my big tank build but, I am now considering a Journal for this one as I could really use help from you kind folks on a regular basis. I'm reading and trying to learn as much as I can everyday but, as you know, there is just so much to learn. Think a Journal is a good idea?


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## FISHnLAB (14 Oct 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Rotala looks perfect to me, plants have different forms to adapt to conditions.


Roger. I wasn't sure if it's just adapting as it was only planted like 10 days ago or if it was a deficiency as I have been reading a bunch of threads about Nitrogen deficiency in Rotala and short fat new growth seams to be a symptom. Ok, sounds like maybe i had better give it some time. Thanks.


plantnoobdude said:


> I can’t see much wrong with the hygrophila either, I think you’re fine. A top down shot for the hygro may help.


It's extremely hard to get an accurate pic. The tops of all of the new growth are white or almost transparent in spots. I circled one of the bad spots that I can get to show on camera...









Thank you for your help👍.


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## plantnoobdude (14 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> It's extremely hard to get an accurate pic. The tops of all of the new growth are white or almost transparent in spots. I circled one of the bad spots that I can get to show on camera...


I’d still let it sit for a while, new growth should be better. Wait a month maybe. 
For your high tech tank I think a journal would be great!


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## FISHnLAB (14 Oct 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> I’d still let it sit for a while, new growth should be better. Wait a month maybe.


Lol, I may be an idiot. Here is a pic from the top down. It appears the white is only in the bottom of the leaves(I'm guessing a natural trait of Hygrophilia?). Just trying to be on top of things😁. Thanks for your help👍. Will do.



I'm going to top it today and replant as it's reached the surface anyway. 


plantnoobdude said:


> For your high tech tank I think a journal would be great!


Definitely going to do one for my big tank build but, considering it won't be ready for a couple of months, I'm thinking I should start one for this tank as well to help me learn. I am currently propagating several species to cut down on the cost of plants and mostly to learn how to grow them lol. Fun stuff...


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## FISHnLAB (14 Oct 2022)

Rah roe....


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## plantnoobdude (14 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Lol, I may be an idiot. Here is a pic from the top down. It appears the white is only in the bottom of the leaves(I'm guessing a natural trait of Hygrophilia?). Just trying to be on top of things😁. Thanks for your help👍. Will do.
> View attachment 195727
> I'm going to top it today and replant as it's reached the surface anyway.
> 
> Definitely going to do one for my big tank build but, considering it won't be ready for a couple of months, I'm thinking I should start one for this tank as well to help me learn. I am currently propagating several species to cut down on the cost of plants and mostly to learn how to grow them lol. Fun stuff...


Yep, they look fine haha


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## FISHnLAB (14 Oct 2022)

There, maintenance done. Topped both the Hygrophilia Difformis and the Rotala Green, removed old bottoms, and replanted. She looks a little bare now but, it will grow back fast and the Rotala Green should do better now. Had some melting of my Helanthium Tenellus Green so I cleaned and added root tabs underneath. Definitely got at least 2 kinds of algae growing. I have upped my husbandry, lowered lighting duration and intensity, and started adding Seachem Excel yesterday. Hopefully I can get it under control before it gets out of hand. I was doing fine until the Helanthium Tenellus started to die and I think that caused the algae outbreak. That and my dumb a** upping lighting intensity... Lesson learned. Let it be until its stable and then up the lighting.


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## FISHnLAB (14 Oct 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Yep, they look fine haha


I'm a newbie but learning fast😁. Thanks again for your help sir👍.


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## FISHnLAB (19 Oct 2022)

Update, things are growing well. I'm going to keep everything the same for the next few weeks and see how it goes...


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## Hufsa (19 Oct 2022)




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## FISHnLAB (19 Oct 2022)

Hufsa said:


> View attachment 195979


🤣


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## FISHnLAB (19 Oct 2022)

Quick question... 

Detritus worms or do I need to worry? Thanks again👍.


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## Hufsa (19 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> View attachment 195986


If those details in the picture are hairlike things along the body then definitely detritus worms


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## FISHnLAB (19 Oct 2022)

Hufsa said:


> If those details in the picture are hairlike things along the body then definitely detritus worms


They are so small I can't tell much better then the pic(I need to get a magnifying glass) but, I'm pretty sure they are detritus worms. I lowered my Bettas feeding portions a few days to a week ago when I lowered the lighting so they should reduce in numbers in time. I also left the side glass last water change/maintenance day in an effort to leave more food for my Nerite Snail but, I think that was a mistake and will probably go back to just leaving the back glass and cleaning the sides and front every week. I'm fighting a hair algae outbreak as well but, I think it's partly just the tank maturing.


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