# The Green Reaper



## gex23 (26 Apr 2017)

*Updated equipment list 23/12/17*

First off, don't expect good photos (they look like they've been taken with a potato), clever aquascaping or a green finger, I possess none of this 

Initially this was supposed to be a low tech build, however i'm probably going to go for a medium / high tech setup.

Equipment so far :

Aquarium - Fluval Roma 90 (60l x 35w x 45h)
Filtration - Eheim Professional 3e 700
Heater - Hydor 200w external
Lighting - Ecotech Radion XR15FW x 2 running the freshwater planted template. Kessil A160 tunasun on a timer for 2 hours at midday.
Substrate - ADA Amazon 12l soil and ADA Amazon 3l powder
Hardscape - No hardscape.

Maintenance regime - 

50 litre water changes (tap water) twice a week, treated with Seachem prime
TNC complete fertiliser (10ml) added daily
Easylife easy carbo (liquid carbon) (5ml) added daily
Easylife ferro (iron supplement) 1.5ml added daily

Still to purchase :

- Reefloat automatic water changer
- Ectotech Vortech MP10QD
- Ecotech Reeflink
- Sodastream CO2 system

Planned livestock :

- Paracheirodon Axelrodi
- Hyphessobrycon pulchripinnis
- Apistogramma Panduro
- Corydoras Pygmaeus





20170418_201559 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr

This has changed a bit :











So today I added plants and honestly it was a total disaster as it looks awful and over-planted. Way too many varieties. The Alterna Reineckii was a particularly poor choice and will be removed ASAP.

The plant list is as follows :

- Rotala Wallichii
- Hygrophila Polysperma
- Hydrocotyle tripartita 'Japan'
- Cryptocoryne Willsii
- Cryptocoryne Wendtii
- Cryptocoryne Wendtii Green
- Cryptocoryne Becketii
- Alternanthera reineckii 'Pink'

(Only planted a few hours ago) :



20170426_170208 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr



20170426_170115 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr



20170426_170227 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr



20170426_170254 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr



20170426_170237 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr



20170426_170307 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr



20170426_170328 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr



20170426_170337 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr


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## Million (26 Apr 2017)

I like the hardscape a lot. I think a bit more depth could be created but ramping up the substrate at the back, and introducing some smaller grade rocks. As you say, I don't think the Alternanthera quite gels. I'd also suggest breaking up the crypts into separate plantlets so that they grow out and converge eventually, rather than staying bunched up forever


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## Konsa (26 Apr 2017)

Hi 
Its a very nice setup.For a newly setup tank high O2 levels are important for the tank N cycle especially with ADA Amazonia.If U are going for the CO2 route.
As soon as U install it the spraybar needs to be under the water with flow not breaking the surface as it will outgas a lot of the gas you pump in.That said while fine tuning the CO2 some surface agitation is useful to achieve constant levels.
Good luck with your project and all the best.
Can't wait to see it all grown in.
Regards Konsa


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## Eduard18 (30 Apr 2017)

Hi there! Don't be so harsh on yourself: it's not a disaster and it's certainly not overplanted; actually this vegetal mass will bring " balance to the Force " ; problem is, IMHO, that you started this tank - high end substrate and light unit - without CO2; I think you're on the edge there; BTW, what's your opinion on this Ecotech XR15? Is it blindingly strong? At what percentage do you run it? 
If I can give you a piece of advice: use the Tropica starting guide application for the first 3 months; I have been using it myself, 3 out of 3 times, 100 % success.


Envoyé de mon SM-G935F en utilisant Tapatalk


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## gex23 (1 May 2017)

Cheers for all the replies,

Eduard - It's a great unit, as I come from a marine background I like high powered high end light units. I currently run it on a 45% peak intensity. Colour temp starts at 4500k, steadily ramping up to a midday temp of 7000k, and back down for dusk. Also runs lunar cycles.

A few things :

CO2 system will be ordered tomorrow.
I need more flow but don't want to spend on a Vortech MP10QD and reeflink right now, so will go for something like a Jebao RW4 or Fluval Sea wavemaker for better flow.
Fertilisers will be ordered with the CO2 system.

Question though - should I carbon dose AND add CO2?


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## gex23 (1 May 2017)

Made the most of the CO2art bank holiday discounts and ordered a sodastream CO2 system, along with a 16 /22 mm inline atomiser from someone off here,


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## gex23 (4 May 2017)

Attached some Java / Christmas / Weeping moss.

Ammonia still high and no sign of nitrates yet.

CO2 system should be here tomorrow. Atomiser arrived today.

Definitely need more flow.


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## Eduard18 (7 May 2017)

liquid carbon and CO2 are complementary ; I use them both simultaneously ; there is no risk for the fish or the invertebrates


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## gex23 (14 May 2017)

So a warts and all update.

CO2 added plus a pair of Apistogramma Nijsseni.

As you can tell, LOTS of algae and diatoms everywhere. 

Plenty of crypts have melted and significant detritus build up on every possible surface.



20170514_201015 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr



20170514_201022 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr


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## gex23 (14 May 2017)

Also wanting to add a bright red stem plant between the H.Polysperma and R.Wallichi - any suggestions?

Also the Java fern will be mounted on the manzanita eventually with leaf litter put in the bottom right hand corner.


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## gex23 (19 May 2017)

Update

- Added some red root floater
- Pretty much every crypt has melted
- Need to pick up some liquid CO2
- Considering EI ferts method
- Considering going less hardscape and lot more dense planting, sort of a dutch hybrid.


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## gex23 (22 May 2017)

Thinking of adding a second XR15fw to my tank.

Frustrated by the growth habit from a single point light source.


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## gex23 (29 Jun 2017)

Quick video update - the qualities been killed by youtube.




Dosing wise - TNC ferts 10ml daily, easycarbo 10m daily (temporary to kill algae), also I returned the Apistogramma Nijessini and replaced with a pair of Microgeophagus Ramirezi.

Seem to have gotten in control of the hair algae, though the rotala wallichi has slowly died off from the bottom up. Also added a coupe of Buce 'Wavy green' and am now thoroughly addicted to all things Buce!

Equipment wise i'll be purchasing a second XR15fw, this time the G4 pro most probably, an inline heater and a second Eheim external to increase capacity / add biomedia / increase total turnover. Glass lily pipe and intake / surface skimmer ordered and on their way.


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## gex23 (1 Jul 2017)

Seem to be talking to myself but oh well.

Second Ecotech XR15FW (3rd gen) bought - should be here next week.


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## Konsa (1 Jul 2017)

Hi
The things happening in your tank are very commonly seem in new setups.The key is to keep on top of the maintenance and regular water changes. I am surprised U desided to put the drop checker there.Its ussualy positioned on opposite  side of the diffuser. U may get false reading where it is as bubbbles of Co2 may enter it directly.From what I see U have pretty good flow.
Ferts wise make sure U dose macro and micros both.U haven't said wich TCN U are using.Dont go wild on the liquid carbon as is not a miracle cure it works best when spot dosing with filter off.Some plants are sensitive towards it.Adding floating plants is a good idea.They will help balance the tank.Adding more light may be a bit tricky at this stage so make sure U reduce the intensity of both.Dont hassle about having more biomedia as the actively growing plants will do most of the  biological filtration .
Regards Konsa


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## Zeus. (1 Jul 2017)

Keep the posts coming, watching thread with interest.

Sent from Mountolympus via neural interface


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## gex23 (1 Jul 2017)

Konsa said:


> Hi
> The things happening in your tank are very commonly seem in new setups.The key is to keep on top of the maintenance and regular water changes. I am surprised U desided to put the drop checker there.Its ussualy positioned on opposite  side of the diffuser. U may get false reading where it is as bubbbles of Co2 may enter it directly.From what I see U have pretty good flow.
> Ferts wise make sure U dose macro and micros both.U haven't said wich TCN U are using.Dont go wild on the liquid carbon as is not a miracle cure it works best when spot dosing with filter off.Some plants are sensitive towards it.Adding floating plants is a good idea.They will help balance the tank.Adding more light may be a bit tricky at this stage so make sure U reduce the intensity of both.Dont hassle about having more biomedia as the actively growing plants will do most of the  biological filtration .
> Regards Konsa



Thankyou for the input.

Water changes - 25 litres of RO / DI water (0TDS) twice weekly.

CO2 diffuser - as per your recommendation i've now moved it to the opposite side of the tank

Fertilisers - It's the TNC complete liquid fertiliser. According to TNCs website it's 'Comprehensive aquarium fertiliser containing nitrogen, phosphorous, potassium, magnesium and trace elements.
Ideal for high light, CO2 enriched tanks'. Can also be used on an EI estimative regime too. So seems suited.

Liquid carbon - i'll be slowly tapering off to 5ml per day.

Lighting - I'll be halving intensity but maintaining the photoperiod and keeping an eye on algae blooms. Bought it purely for better light distribution.

Floating plants - Added red root floater and duckweed but managed to kill it off!

Filtration / Media - You raise a valid point. It's more for the increase water capacity / water flow. I may be tempted to add an Ecotech Vortech MP10 and run it with the Radions via a reeflink Wifi module.


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## gex23 (1 Jul 2017)

Zeus. said:


> Keep the posts coming, watching thread with interest.
> 
> Sent from Mountolympus via neural interface



Cheers 

Radion on it's way, I just need to modify the mounting bracket to accommodate it now.


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## Konsa (1 Jul 2017)

Hi
If U having algae issues I will recommend to make  2  x 50 %  waterchanges.
Yes TCN complate is fine I have seen EI dosage sheme on this product but cant recall where sr.
Dont give up on floaters.Get some pistia (dwarf water lettuce ) it grows fast or Amazon frogbit (Large roots) they are bullet proof. 
Regards Konsa


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## MooseOnDaLoose (2 Jul 2017)

I'm starting to reap the rewards of dosing TNC at what I think are high volumes.  I've gone from half a ml, then a ml then 2 ml a day in a 19l tank.  Algae has slowed and the plants have exploded.  I'm high light and co2.


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## gex23 (6 Jul 2017)

From one to two







Having teething problems as although they have both had a factory reset / running the same schedule, the newest one is running a few minutes earlier and at a differing intensity to my original unit.

Also struggling with CO2.


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## AndreiD (6 Jul 2017)

Are you using the external filter on half of the power as shown in the pictures in post # 1?


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## gex23 (6 Jul 2017)

No, full power. 

Though even with a thorough clean the output's dropped dramtically.


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## gex23 (8 Jul 2017)

Glass surface skimmer installed, rid the surface scum in minutes, very impressed. Just the glass lily pipe to install now.

Oh and the GBRs have spawned already.


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## gex23 (13 Jul 2017)

Have 2 - 300 free swimming GBR fry now, obviously none will make it but it's nice to witness.


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## gex23 (17 Jul 2017)

20229766_10154792037882006_6948062578028058898_o by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr


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## gex23 (20 Jul 2017)

Top Shot by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr


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## gex23 (21 Jul 2017)

I have Rotala Wallichi, Bangladesh, Rotundifolia and Macandra on their way courtesy of hogan53

Also tempted to try some Monte Carlo for the foreground - will my lights / setup be capable of sustaining it?


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## gex23 (21 Jul 2017)

A screenshot of my Radion schedule via Ecosmartlive



ESL by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr


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## gex23 (27 Jul 2017)

Added a few 'red rill' shrimp.

Crossing my fingers they don't become expensive fish food.


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## gex23 (3 Aug 2017)

So the shrimp along with the other 6 I added have been wittled down to 1.

I'm considering removing the rams and replacing with CRS / Cherry shrimp

A few algae problems, maybe detritus on the substrate - maybe a wavemaker for more flow will help - thoughts?

Growth seems to be ok, HC is taking over, Salvinia natans going mad!



20170803_111451 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr



20170803_111509 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr



20170803_111147 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr


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## gex23 (15 Aug 2017)

I'll be listing this tank / equipment for sale in the classifieds this week.


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## alto (15 Aug 2017)

Sorry to read this - hope all is well


Tank certainly came along nicely


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## gex23 (24 Aug 2017)

Decided to keep this going, though it's massively neglected atm due to job / in the process of moving / selling / training.

So no ferts (ran out, will replace), struggling with intake skimmer drawing air in, salvina natans taking over, CO2 playing up due to dodgy timer and infrequent water changes.

Here's a photo post trim, apologies for its poor appearance


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## leetaylor (24 Aug 2017)

Looks awesome mate!


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## gex23 (5 Nov 2017)

So, after a moving house, a crash, algae, neglect and ripping out all the hardscape - i'm back on it but this is where i'm at at the minute - help / thoughts and advice on how to proceed.

Currect equipment list :

60 x 45 x 45cm 
Radion G3 freshwater x 2
Pressurised CO2
ADA Amazonia
All in one liquid ferts dosed daily
Liquid carbon dosed daily
25 litre WC change weekly (50% RO, 50% tapwater w/ Seachem Prime)

My thoughts are to use the manzanita branches or some malaysian bogwood, attached by suckers on the back wall to create a dramatic root effect planted with buces / anubias? Or should I go plant only jungle style with loads of stems?




20171103_150806 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr


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## Costa (5 Nov 2017)

Isn't this too much light and ferts for that few plants? I would cut back on both until you've got some growth going.

If you have spare wood, it sure as hell wouldn't hurt to add it and see how the scape looks. If you are like me and suck at aquascaping (you can't be that bad really) you can just go Dutch 

I would add some rock pieces and maybe also some Marsilea hirsuta which will grow as a carpet quite quickly with the lights you have.


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## gex23 (7 Nov 2017)

Cheers for the feedback Costa.

I've cut the intensity of the lights back by 20%, along with halving the amount of TNC ferts and Easy Carbo i'm using.

All the Java Fern melted away and i'm still torn as to wether to go all plants or have some hardscape in there too....


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## Costa (8 Nov 2017)

Man I so envy these Radion lights. But well above my budget. 

Good luck with the scape. I have some ceratophyllum to send you if you need (but I'm based in Athens, Greece mind you). I think the combination of more plants with the hardware you have will make for a great aquascape with beautiful, lush plants.


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## gex23 (11 Nov 2017)

Costa said:


> Man I so envy these Radion lights. But well above my budget.
> 
> Good luck with the scape. I have some ceratophyllum to send you if you need (but I'm based in Athens, Greece mind you). I think the combination of more plants with the hardware you have will make for a great aquascape with beautiful, lush plants.



Costa - that's a very kind gesture thankyou. 

Many thanks for the kind comments.

Now i've managed to sort the CO2 diffuser out (was blocked) and the drop checker is a nice lime green, my thoughts are turning to two aspects I need to tackle 

1) Hardscape - 
          a) Do I go for 1 substantial piece of wood in the centre of off to the left such as cypress knee / malaysian driftwood / redmoor?
          b) If so do I keep it central this time to improve flow?
          c) Do I go for 3 / 4 smaller pieces of malaysian driftwood attached to the back of the tank via suckers to create a dramatic effect?

2) Water / CO2 flow and distribution
     This IMO is a very under appreciated aspect of the success of a planted tank. I currently have an Eheim 350 which has a peak output of 1050 LPH, with head height loss I suspect this is more like 900 LPH which is bang on 10 times tank volume. The spraybar for this is on the left hand wall, sat about 2 cm under the water level, with the intake on the right hand side. However I feel more flow will help. I was thinking of a cheap ebay chinese powerhead situated halfway down the tank to improve flow at the bottom?

Also, due to the impending addition of a new family member - a Burmese kitten, i've had to 'kitten proof' the tank by covering the top, I know this will reduce gas exchange but unfortunately I have no choice. The plus side is I now have no surface protein film to remove on a daily basis.


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## gex23 (15 Nov 2017)

- Added a cheap Aqua One wavemaker from the LFS as a stop gap solution to reduce dead spots / improve flow at substrate level / improve CO2 distribution. 1500 LPH, will be buying a better quality / smaller form factor variant in the future, either an Ecotech MP10 QD or a Jebao RW-4

- Have my inline CO2 atomiser in soak, with the hope I have better success with it this time around, to improve CO2 saturation over the bazooka diffuser

- Need to think about my external filter siuation, not happy with the flow from my  Eheim Pro 3 350 soon-ish. May look at the 1500XL, which has a flow rate of 2400LPH, rated for tanks from 300 - 1500 L. Fluval FX4 / FX6 are too wide to fit under my tank.

- Bought some Sumatra wood for hardscape but can't find a setup i'm happy with, so will attempt plant only to try and hone my skills for a while.

- Need to trade the Male GBR in so I can get some Amano / CR shrimp.

- Suffering lots of algae on the cryptocorne and buce leaves, unsure how to proceed with this.


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## gex23 (20 Nov 2017)

I seem to be talking to myself on here but oh well, i'll continue. Might interest someone 

1) Soaked the inline atomiser and installed, works brilliantly. Seems more efficient than the in tank version, more microbubbles in and around plants, slightly greater PH drop also.

2) My crypts and staurogyne repens are covered in hair algae, no idea what to do, always struggled with algae on the crypts. Dialled the Radions back by 10% peak intensity.

3) I'll be adding another Eheim external before too long. My choice is either a second one like a 2217 (a combined flow of 2050LPH) , or replace my pro 350 with the 1200XL, with a flow of 1700 LPH, one larger filter would produce less clutter, however 2 smaller filters would give some redundancy against failures.

An updated equipment list / regime :

90 litre tank
Ecotech Radion G3 XR15FW x 2
Eheim Pro 3 350 (1050LPH)
Aqua-one wavemaker (1500LPH)
Up Aqua in-line CO2 atomiser
100w in tank heater
CO2art Sodastream dual stage reg kit - 3bps
ADA aquasoil
TNC liquid fertiliser - dosing 3 x 10ml per week to simulate EI levels
Easy carbo 5 ml daily
25l water change weekly, 50/50 RO and tapwater (treated with Prime)

Current lighting schedule :




ESL by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr


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## ceg4048 (20 Nov 2017)

Hi Anthony,
                  No, you're not talking to yourself. It's quite fascinating and we are learning a lot about the Radions. They are actually quite powerful and you were wise to use a ramp profile and to limit their maximum output. Their strength explains the difficulty you were having with CO2. I'll be interested to see how the Max limit of 40% performs.
You could try just turning one on at the beginning and staggering the ramp for the other so that will reduce the stress.

It looks like your ON time is 9am but when does the CO2 come on? The Easycarbo will certainly help.



gex23 said:


> 2) My crypts and staurogyne repens are covered in hair algae, no idea what to do, always struggled with algae on the crypts. Dialled the Radions back by 10% peak intensity.


CO2 mate. Have you done a CO2 profile from gas ON till the end of the photoperiod? This will tell you a lot.
Also do massive water changes of at least 50%.

Cheers,


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## gex23 (21 Nov 2017)

ceg4048 said:


> Hi Anthony,
> No, you're not talking to yourself. It's quite fascinating and we are learning a lot about the Radions. They are actually quite powerful and you were wise to use a ramp profile and to limit their maximum output. Their strength explains the difficulty you were having with CO2. I'll be interested to see how the Max limit of 40% performs.
> You could try just turning one on at the beginning and staggering the ramp for the other so that will reduce the stress.
> 
> ...



Ceg - thankyou for taking the time to reply.

- I agree re: Radions power, 1 is recommended for my tank, I initally used one but I wasn't happy with the shading this created. Good poing regarding using one, followed by another during peak sunlight hours. 
- My CO2 comes on at 0730, 2 hours before the lights, and switches off at 1830, 1 hour before the lights switch off.
- Easy carbo, as I understand isn't an ideal 'solution' and certainly not something i'll be using long term,
- You mention CO2 - do you feel it's a lack of CO2 distrubution or CO2 levels? My drop checker is a very light lime green by lights on and all through the day. The drop checker is situated at the opposite end of the tank to the spray bar, approx 2/3 of the way up the tank.
- Sorry I don't understand what you mean by CO2 profile - do you mean measuring the PH drop? Could you explain so I can create this profile and give you the information you're asking for - sorry if i'm being dumb 
- Water changes - is 50% recommended as the norm? Also what duration? 50% weekly?

Many thanks for your input.


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## Edvet (21 Nov 2017)

gex23 said:


> create this profile



Try to take readings every 30 mins with a electronic pH device (not strips) from before pH goes on, till lights out.
pH should be lowest at lights on, the pH drop in relation to your waterhardness will tell if it's plenty (the softer the water the bigger the needed drop will be)



gex23 said:


> 50% weekly



At least. It's to remove excess nutrients and all kind of metabolites and toxins you wouldn't remove otherwise. It would also help to lower the water below the plants in trouble and rub their leaves to clean them. Preferably before lights on so they can "stuff themselves"with CO2 (from the air) and be clean so they can absorb nutriens and CO2 better from the water column
.


gex23 said:


> drop checker is situated at the opposite end of the tank to the spray bar, approx 2/3 of the way up the tank.



This looks to be the place where it can catch CO2 the best. Try placing it where the plants are suffering
remember : https://www.ukaps.org/index.php?page=co2-measurement-using-a-drop-checker


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## gex23 (21 Nov 2017)

Edvet said:


> Try to take readings every 30 mins with a electronic pH device (not strips) from before pH goes on, till lights out.
> pH should be lowest at lights on, the pH drop in relation to your waterhardness will tell if it's plenty (the softer the water the bigger the needed drop will be)



Electronic PH meters sound expensive - they were when I was in the reefing side of the hobby. What about PH solution test kits rather than strips?






Edvet said:


> least. It's to remove excess nutrients and all kind of metabolites and toxins you wouldn't remove otherwise. It would also help to lower the water below the plants in trouble and rub their leaves to clean them. Preferably before lights on so they can "stuff themselves"with CO2 (from the air) and be clean so they can absorb nutriens and CO2 better from the water column



I've been doing 25 litres a week, but will increase this to 50 litres a week from now on then.

The plants in question are an inch off the substrate so I wouldn't be able to emerse them unless I did a close to 100% water change. I'll have to clip any affected leaves.
.




Edvet said:


> looks to be the place where it can catch CO2 the best. Try placing it where the plants are suffering
> remember : https://www.ukaps.org/index.php?page=co2-measurement-using-a-drop-checker



Cheers I will do, so down low at the front.

Thankyou for your advice and input so far.


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## Edvet (21 Nov 2017)

gex23 said:


> PH solution test kits rather than strips


Strips are far to inaccurate for this. pH pens are quite affordable these days. If you fork out for an Ecotech Radion these should be in your range, especially if you are going to use CO2. Bad CO2 is far worse then no CO2


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## ceg4048 (21 Nov 2017)

gex23 said:


> Electronic PH meters sound expensive - they were when I was in the reefing side of the hobby. What about PH solution test kits rather than strips?


I agree with Edvert that a quality pH pen - AND hi & low calibration solutions should be in your arsenal. I'm a fan of Hann and Milwalkee brands, but there are other good, less expensive brands.

In the mean time however just use your liquid kit so that you have an idea of what's going on and of how the gas is behaving.



gex23 said:


> - Easy carbo, as I understand isn't an ideal 'solution' and certainly not something i'll be using long term,


Easycarbo is no less ideal than suffocating your fish with CO2 and it's an excellent tool, at least for solving CO2 deficiencies in the short term. There are many folks who use Easycarbo exclusively and avoid all the complications  and toxicity associated with gas injection. 

Lets face it, when we inject CO2 this is like condemning your fish to a Gas Chamber. Why is this OK but Easycarbo such a pariah?

The combination of gas and Easycarbo is a great way to go, but the main downside is the expense, especially for large tanks.



gex23 said:


> Water changes - is 50% recommended as the norm?


Yes. More is even better.



gex23 said:


> Also what duration? 50% weekly?


Yes. More frequently such as 2X or 3X if you are experiencing an algal bloom helps tremendously.

Cheers,


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## gex23 (22 Nov 2017)

Interesting thoughts, many thanks for all your input.

I'll be performing 4 x 25 litre WCs a week for the foreseeable future then.

Regarding pens - anything a but cheaper than the Hanna / Milwuakee offerings you would recommend? I'll get one purchased next week.

Looking at the tank this morning:

- The crypts are pretty much covered in hair algae
- The alternanthera reneckii 'mini' has lost all it's red colouration (new plant so possibly adapting to the tank?
- The plant growth seems leggy / stunted

So dropping back the lights to help solve the algae can't be helping the other plants - or is this all / mostly down to CO2 issues?

Could I be over fertilising? I'm using this fertiliser :
https://www.thenutrientcompany.com/product/tnc-complete/

The reason I suggest fert issues is that my ADA soil is pretty rich in nutrients and is under a year old?

Algae on crypts



20171122_112853 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr

Leggy growth (unknown stem also)



20171122_112919 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr

Loss of red on new Alt Reineckii 'mini red'



20171122_112924 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr


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## AndreiD (22 Nov 2017)

You need to clean and cut the leafs of the plants that are covered in algae , cleaning is needed when you do the water changes


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## Danny (22 Nov 2017)

How are you finding the TNC ferts? I'm also going to use their complete and carbon.


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## ceg4048 (22 Nov 2017)

gex23 said:


> Regarding pens - anything a but cheaper than the Hanna / Milwuakee offerings you would recommend? I'll get one purchased next week.


OK, well not sure of your max budget but here are a couple of possibilities:
Oakton Eco Testr pH 2+   - auto temperature compensation and auto calibration i.e. no need for screwdriver (still a bit pricey though )
Dr. Meter pH100 - auto temperature compensation and auto calibration middling price
MacDoDo pH-02 - Inexpensive and also has auto temperature compensation and autocalibration



gex23 said:


> So dropping back the lights to help solve the algae can't be helping the other plants - or is this all / mostly down to CO2 issues?


Yes, no question. More light never "helps" plants. It only helps algae. Light causes algae. You need to repeat this Mantra. It's very important. The only effect of  more light on plants is that it forces them to grow faster. It does not make them healthier. If sufficient nutrients and CO2 are available for the intensity level, only then will they be healthier. If the light forces a growth rate of higher than the level of nutrient/CO2 can deliver the plant's health fails and algae attack. That is the sequence of events so you must always consider the CO2 availability BEFORE you implement higher light levels.



gex23 said:


> Could I be over fertilising? I'm using this fertiliser :
> https://www.thenutrientcompany.com/product/tnc-complete/


No. Nutrients do not cause algae. This is Mantra #2.
When you do not have sufficient nutrients then this causes algae.
The algae that you are reporting and those that are visible in the photographs are due strictly to poor CO2.

Reduce light intensity. Fix your CO2/flow/distribution and you will resolve the algal blooms.
The pH readings will show you how the gas is behaving and will indicate a path forward.

As noted byAndreiD, you need to mechanically remove the affected leaves and scrub the glass relentlessly. The algae that is in the tank spawns more algae so water changes and harassment of the blooms that are present will help your cause. Again, as mentioned, Easycarbo/Excel and the like will help you to evict the resident blooms while you fix the CO2/flow/distribution/light.

Cheers,


----------



## gex23 (23 Nov 2017)

ceg4048 said:


> OK, well not sure of your max budget but here are a couple of possibilities:
> Oakton Eco Testr pH 2+   - auto temperature compensation and auto calibration i.e. no need for screwdriver (still a bit pricey though )
> Dr. Meter pH100 - auto temperature compensation and auto calibration middling price
> MacDoDo pH-02 - Inexpensive and also has auto temperature compensation and autocalibration
> ...



Many thanks for all your advice, it's all being taken on board and i'm learning new things on a daily basis.

Max budget ideally £50 for the PH pen / tester as wanting to upgrade to the Eheim 1500XL external too.

Mantra #1 and #2 remembered and repeated 

One thing, regarding CO2 - I don't really know how I can 'increase' it anymore? I'm running 3 bps which seems high for a tank capacity like mine, and is being distributed by an inline atomiser so should be pretty efficiently distributed?

The only way to improve the flow would be adding further powerheads or upgrading the filter to a larger one with increased output? The thing that confuses me with this is that I see a lot of ADA 60Ps on here with lush growth running a relatively modest filtration system / water turnover capacity and no wavemakers, and yet they manage lush green plantations.

Increased my WC frequency and quantity, will keep up with the liquid CO2 and all in one ferts on a daily basis, and may well reduce the radion lighting even further, the only danger being tweaking too many variables too often meaning an equilibrium cannot be established.


----------



## gex23 (23 Nov 2017)

Danny said:


> How are you finding the TNC ferts? I'm also going to use their complete and carbon.



I find them very straightforward to use. As to whether they are any good - i'll leave that to people more qualified than me.

Well priced compared to others on the market though.


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## gex23 (23 Nov 2017)

AndreiD said:


> You need to clean and cut the leafs of the plants that are covered in algae , cleaning is needed when you do the water changes



Noted, i'll make sure I incorporate this into my general maintenance going forward. Many thanks.


----------



## foxfish (23 Nov 2017)

Hi Gex, the PH pens I have used, are just the very cheap ones that need calibrating with fluids & a screw driver! They cost around £10 & have always seemed to do the job of forming a profile. Unfortunately they don't seem to last & become inconsistent after a few weeks.


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## ceg4048 (23 Nov 2017)

gex23 said:


> One thing, regarding CO2 - I don't really know how I can 'increase' it anymore? I'm running 3 bps which seems high for a tank capacity like mine, and is being distributed by an inline atomiser so should be pretty efficiently distributed?
> 
> The only way to improve the flow would be adding further powerheads or upgrading the filter to a larger one with increased output? The thing that confuses me with this is that I see a lot of ADA 60Ps on here with lush growth running a relatively modest filtration system / water turnover capacity and no wavemakers, and yet they manage lush green plantations.



Just for clarity, could you confirm that the water and gas mixture is exiting into the tank from the spraybar shown in post #36? It looks like there is a gas line on the heater wall, just to the right in the photo, or is that something else and the atomizer is installed feeding the filter outlet line?

The pH profile will tell us what we need to know.

Another idea is to move the spraybar on the same wall as the heater in that photo. Not a guarantee, but something to try if the numbers don't look good.

Also, we always talk about reducing the amount of filter media to get a better flow throughput in the filter.

Anyway, the first step is to see the pH numbers and go from there.

As foxfish mentions, the bottom end probes may be OK in the beginning but their long term reliability is questionable. I see no point in buying disposable gear because there is always a need to use the pen whenever we are dealing with CO2. Remember that whatever unit you buy, there is always a need to calibrate regularly, so include calibration fluid in your budget.

Cheers,


----------



## gex23 (23 Nov 2017)

ceg4048 said:


> Just for clarity, could you confirm that the water and gas mixture is exiting into the tank from the spraybar shown in post #36? It looks like there is a gas line on the heater wall, just to the right in the photo, or is that something else and the atomizer is installed feeding the filter outlet line?
> 
> The pH profile will tell us what we need to know.



I replaced the in tank diffuser with an inline atomiser last week. This is installed on the outlet pipe and exits from the spraybar, producing plenty of microbubbles.

The drop checker has been moved down to the bottom left where the crypt parva is struggling and is still a nice lime green during the day.



ceg4048 said:


> Another idea is to move the spraybar on the same wall as the heater in that photo. Not a guarantee, but something to try if the numbers don't look good.



I have pondered that idea - I think i'll run a double spray bar over the length of the back glass when I upgrade the filter.



ceg4048 said:


> Also, we always talk about reducing the amount of filter media to get a better flow throughput in the filter.



That's a relevant point, I run the baskets about 80% full, so assuming a reduction will help flow? I'm planning on adding a second powerhead in the tank near the filter intake aiming back across to the left to improve flow distribution.



ceg4048 said:


> , the first step is to see the pH numbers and go from there.
> 
> As foxfish mentions, the bottom end probes may be OK in the beginning but their long term reliability is questionable. I see no point in buying disposable gear because there is always a need to use the pen whenever we are dealing with CO2. Remember that whatever unit you buy, there is always a need to calibrate regularly, so include calibration fluid in your budget.
> 
> Cheers,



pH pen wise - I think i'll get the Dr Meter ph100 you listed, the price is fairly resonable and as you say I have to factor in calibration fluid into the overall running costs also.

Another thought was to run just one radion for the first and last 2 hours of the photoperiod, running both for the middle 5/6 hours? Only concern is tweaking too many variables will surely only confuse matters.

Apologies for the long winded reply but many many thanks for all the help and advice so far, I hope it will have a positive effect eventually.


----------



## gex23 (23 Nov 2017)

foxfish said:


> Hi Gex, the PH pens I have used, are just the very cheap ones that need calibrating with fluids & a screw driver! They cost around £10 & have always seemed to do the job of forming a profile. Unfortunately they don't seem to last & become inconsistent after a few weeks.



Foxfish - many thanks for your thoughts and input, as I mentioned above I think i'll get the Dr Meter pH 100 pen, a bit more justifiable at £40 but hopefully not a disposable item!


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## ceg4048 (24 Nov 2017)

gex23 said:


> I run the baskets about 80% full, so assuming a reduction will help flow? I'm planning on adding a second powerhead in the tank near the filter intake aiming back across to the left to improve flow distribution.


Yes, you really don't need a whole lot, especially if it's the sintered glass or ceramic noodle type. These really have a negative impact on flow. Whatever supplemental pumps you use, they should always be mounted on the same wall as the spraybar and face the same direction as the holes in the spraybar, i.e. towards the front glass. Pumps can also be placed directly under the spraybar to assist in moving water across to the opposite side.



gex23 said:


> Another thought was to run just one radion for the first and last 2 hours of the photoperiod, running both for the middle 5/6 hours? Only concern is tweaking too many variables will surely only confuse matters.


I really wouldn't worry too much about the number of variables right now. The priority is to get the tank healthy. The only thing to worry about is to ensure that the variable that you do change is in the positive direction.

I understand that the spread of a single unit is not aesthetically pleasing, but when you run the two together it's best at this point to keep their outputs low because you will be doubling the PAR output to the tank.

You may also want to think about adding some cheap stems or sword plants to the tank to get the biomass up as that will help. you can always throw them out later if they don't fit with your scaping plants, but a high plant mass helps to stabilize the tank.

Cheers,


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## gex23 (24 Nov 2017)

ceg4048 said:


> Yes, you really don't need a whole lot, especially if it's the sintered glass or ceramic noodle type. These really have a negative impact on flow.



Ok i'll remove about half the media then, see if this helps any.



ceg4048 said:


> Whatever supplemental pumps you use, they should always be mounted on the same wall as the spraybar and face the same direction as the holes in the spraybar, i.e. towards the front glass. Pumps can also be placed directly under the spraybar to assist in moving water across to the opposite side.



I'll also relocate the spraybar to the back wall, with the powerhead on the same wall, would this be better high / mid or low level? I'll situate it to the right half as the spraybar only covers half the tank length.



ceg4048 said:


> really wouldn't worry too much about the number of variables right now. The priority is to get the tank healthy. The only thing to worry about is to ensure that the variable that you do change is in the positive direction.



Very true, I hope it does head in the right direction as it's proving more than a little fruitless at the minute - it just goes to show that buying decent equipment counts for nothing if you don't have the knowhow for the hobby (all the gear, no idea)[/QUOTE]



ceg4048 said:


> understand that the spread of a single unit is not aesthetically pleasing, but when you run the two together it's best at this point to keep their outputs low because you will be doubling the PAR output to the tank.



I created a second 'aquarium' on EcoSmart live and linked the left hand Radion to this profile.

Right hand (main) Radion schedule :




Main radion by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr

Left hand (supplemental) Radion schedule :



Supplemental Radion by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr[/QUOTE]



ceg4048 said:


> may also want to think about adding some cheap stems or sword plants to the tank to get the biomass up as that will help. you can always throw them out later if they don't fit with your scaping plants, but a high plant mass helps to stabilize the tank.
> 
> Cheers,



I picked a few plants up while out Black Friday shopping (nightmare!)

Hygrophilia Siamensis 53B
Legendera Meeboldi 'red'
Eleocharis acicularis mini (I understand this one is very slow growing so i'll probably kill it off).

A couple more things :

- I moved the drop checker to the bottom right corner near the front where plants seem to struggle - it was a lime green verging on yellow all day
- My new Crypts and stems have melted away after a few days, hoping they return after adapting to the tank, though I have NEVER had success with Cryptocornes of any description?
- As it sounds like my CO2 is the weak link here would you recommend increasing the output any, even though the drop checker indicates it's in the 'ideal' range, and i'm running 3 - 4 bps? Or are all the answers / solutions lying in purchasing a pH meter?


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## ceg4048 (25 Nov 2017)

gex23 said:


> - I moved the drop checker to the bottom right corner near the front where plants seem to struggle - it was a lime green verging on yellow all day


Hi Anthony,
                  It really doesn't matter where you put the DC as it will not be any more accurate. My advice is always to place the DC where it is easiest to read. Have a read of the DC article in the Tutorial section. The reading is always about 2 hours old. The DC is OK as a visual indicator but we are trying to get instant readings, not readings that are 2 hours old.



gex23 said:


> Or are all the answers / solutions lying in purchasing a pH meter?


Well, knowing the instantaneous measurement of pH is really important. It doesn't have to be a pen. The kits that use reagents are fine, but they are annoying to use, and interpreting the colours and comparing to a chart can sometimes be difficult, so a good pen is the best tool for the job.



gex23 said:


> My new Crypts and stems have melted away after a few days, hoping they return after adapting to the tank, though I have NEVER had success with Cryptocornes of any description?


A shame that. Crypts really don't like a lot of light combined with poor CO2. A lot of people buy crypts and place them in the tank where the promptly melt. The hobbyist promptly blames esoteric causes such as "adaptation to water parameters" or "doesn't like being moved". All of these rationalisations are fantasy. The melt is a direct result of a CO2 shortfall.

It could be that you need to increase the injection rate, or to turn the gas on earlier, but I hesitate to suggest that because there are fish in the tank and we do not know the story. The gas should normally be on 1-2 hours before the lights but if you have that schedule and if the DC filled with 4dKH water is lime green at lights on then theoretically that should be good. This all falls apart however, if the light intensity is over the top.

Looking at your schedule for the two Radions, I can see that you have set the max power on each to 40%.
So as the second unit reaches it's peak at about 3pm, the first unit has only slight fallen off from it's peak. The sum total energy is the same as if a single unit were at 80% - at least it will be near that value at some point where the spread of each intersect. Whatever plant is in an area where the two spreads meet wilt be pummelled by a lot of energy.

I was thinking, for the moment anyway, to reduce the peak level of each to somewhere around 20%.
Once flow/CO2/distribution are sorted and the plants stabilised then it would be a simple task to slowly raise the peaks.

The Hygrophilia is a tough cookie and is a good indicator plant. If it starts to melt then you know you are in really deep yogurt.


gex23 said:


> 'll also relocate the spraybar to the back wall, with the powerhead on the same wall, would this be better high / mid or low level? I'll situate it to the right half as the spraybar only covers half the tank length.


We should strive for as much symmetry in the flow output as possible - at least as a starting point. Sometimes this doesn't work due to geometry of the tank or hardscape placement and so forth, but always start as symmetrically as possible. The flow output of all pumps should match in height and it should be placed in the centre of the remaining distance from the edge of the spraybar to the opposite wall.

The more symmetry and alignment we configure the flow, the more mass of water we can move and the more even the flow across the length of the tank. Again, this is all theoretical. Adjustments may have to be made based on reality.

Cheers,


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## gex23 (25 Nov 2017)

Many thanks for the in depth response.

I've reduced the intensity of both Radions to 20% peak.

I'm gutted about the crypts - i've never been able to keep them.

So we keep talking about CO2 shortfall - how do I overcome this? Increase the BPS a lot? I have an inline atomiser which is supposedly pretty efficient at CO2 dispersion via filter outlets....

Tomorrow i'll be performing another WC, that will be 3 50% WCs this week, i'll also relocate the spray-bar and mirror the powerhead with it for symmetry and remove an amount of the filters media.

The frustrating thing is seeing all these gorgeous tanks on here with half the equipment I use, except they look amazing while mine looks embarrassing.....


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## ceg4048 (26 Nov 2017)

gex23 said:


> I'm gutted about the crypts - i've never been able to keep them.
> 
> So we keep talking about CO2 shortfall - how do I overcome this? Increase the BPS a lot? I have an inline atomiser which is supposedly pretty efficient at CO2 dispersion via filter outlets....


Well, if the roots haven't melted then there is a good chance the leaves will return. Leave them and check to see if they are still viable every now and again.
It could easily be that a simple injection rate increase will solve the problem, but we really don't know yet until we see the pH profile. If you are brave you can do that, but CO2 is a four headed monster Light-Gas-Flow-Distribution.

Everyone talks about how their DC is lime green, but if the lighting is OTT then you may need so much injection rate to solve the CO2 demand that it annihilates the fish.
So maybe with your lighting you need a yellow DC when the lights come on.

This is why I attack the lighting issue first because everything starts with that. More light means you need more CO2. If you fix the light, it may be that you don't need to do anything else.
But we won't stop there. We attack the other three factors and try to solve the problem holistically.

I reckon the seeds of destruction started when the second Radion was added. I went back to your earlier posts to study the photos and I saw that there were unchecked algae at the lower regions on the glass.

I don't recall if this is exactly your model but I wanted to show you how easy it is to go over the top with lights. These lights were developed for reefers who can't get enough light.
Look at the PAR distribution on the far right in this image. This is the PAR distribution at 100% power at a distance of 24 inches (61 cm) below the fixture. A PAR of 121 micromoles within a 15 inch diameter circle centered directly beneath the fixture. At 5 inches (13cm) these numbers are doubled. Between 5 inches and 24 inches the numbers fall somewhere in between.



 

There is something we measure in plants called the Light Compensation Point (LCP). This is the minimum amount of light, measured in PAR, a plant needs to survive.
Crypts, ferns, moss and plants like Anubias have an LCP of between 10-15 PAR. That's their minimum, and so of course, in order to grow then need more than the minum. 
But they do not need 10X this amount, and if they are blasted with that much then the CO2 needed to keep them alive must be epic.

You are using two of these fixture, so because of the spread the numbers are doubled only where the spread patterns overlap.

Here is a suggested lighting scheme. They don't cover your type of light, but I just wanted to show you the target PAR values.
You can see that Medium light is between 50-75 PAR and ideally, when you start the tank, you want to stay in the blue zone, which is below 50 PAR.

Crypts really prefer the blue zone. They do OK in non-CO2 injected tanks, but if you provide PAR values above this zone CO2 really becomes important.


 

So it's less about the equipment being used, and more about how to implement the equipment and to understand what things matter the most.

Hope this helps!

Cheers,


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## gex23 (27 Nov 2017)

Thankyou for your input regarding my lights and realised you're probably right re: the adding of the second Radion. It was only added to improve light distribution / spread.

My fixtures are the the previoius generation G3s and freshwater so somewhat less powerful but still easy to go OTT. The intensity has been dialed back to 20% max, and i've noticed the plants that were reddening such as the Rotala Wallichi and Ludwigia sp. have lost their red tips and gone back to green 

Dialed the CO2 up yesterday but think I went too much the other way as the drop checker is yellow and fish are a bit lethargic with the plants actively pearling so dialed this back by about 10%.

Tough finding a happy medium and where to turn next, a bit gutted about the colour loss in the tank, along with the melting plants.

I guess my next steps are :

- pH meter to create a pH profile over the photoperiod.
- Try and improve CO2 distribution without causing hypoxia.
- Create an acceptable PAR level at all levels that don't cause the plants to demand CO2 levels I can't provide?

Not sure what else I can do?


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## ceg4048 (27 Nov 2017)

Hi Anthony,
                   Mate, you mustn't get disheartened. In fact the results of your experimentation are actually quite revealing.
The fact that an injection rate increase improve performance confirms that the tank suffers CO2 shortfall. Of course we knew that all along but also, I assume that the pearling occurred while the two units were set to the 20% maximum? If so then this proves unequivocally that you do not need massive lighting to drive excellent health & growth. This is an exciting revelation man, be happy! 

So now we know that we have to work on gas dissolution and or flow/distribution.

Please also note that hypercapnia in fish require about 48 hours for them to adapt to the new level of CO2. There is always some adjustment needed until their blood produces enough bicarbonate to neutralize the carbonic acid. Injection rate increase should always be done when you have the time all day to monitor the response.

I really wouldn't worry too much about red. People fret over red all day long and it's such wasted energy.
Were you aware that red and other colors are a result of a pigment production when the plants are subjected to light stress?
So instead of using the energy they have to grow, they have to divert the energy to production of the pigments, which is very expensive. The pigments fluoresce the excessive energy and in some ways is analogous to sunburn in humans.
The loss of red is actually a good thing as it is a visual indicator that the plant is no longer under light stress.

When the plants are healthy again and when CO2 and nutrition are excellent, the plants will once again produce other pigment types that are even more pleasing. Those pigments will be about the plant optimizing their use of the various wavelengths of light. You can also trigger various pigment response by changing the color of your bulbs. You'll be able to experiment with various color temperatures and after a few weeks. When CO2 is excellent, you will also be able to increase the Radion power and will trigger the same response without also triggering algae.

You really need to forget about red for now and focus on solving the injection/distribution puzzle for your tank.

The meter makes things easier, but you can slowly increase the injection rate a few bubbles at a time and monitor the fishes' response.

I need to review the previous posts to determine why the flow rate or distribution scheme is failing and what tweaks are needed.

Can you please post photos of your revised pump and filter output installation?
Also, please drop the water level to below the spraybar so we can see the spray pattern.
Can you re-state the amount and type of filter media?

Cheers,


----------



## gex23 (27 Nov 2017)

ceg4048 said:


> Hi Anthony,
> Mate, you mustn't get disheartened. In fact the results of your experimentation are actually quite revealing.
> The fact that an injection rate increase improve performance confirms that the tank suffers CO2 shortfall. Of course we knew that all along but also, I assume that the pearling occurred while the two units were set to the 20% maximum? If so then this proves unequivocally that you do not need massive lighting to drive excellent health & growth. This is an exciting revelation man, be happy!



Yes indeed, the photoperiod is as above, the right hand unit has a 10 hour photoperiod, left hand unit a 6 hour photoperiod, both peaking at 20% intensity.

Would you call the growth healthy / excellent? I don't know. I still am noticing algae but I would say it's reduced somewhat.


ceg4048 said:


> So now we know that we have to work on gas dissolution and or flow/distribution.



I feel this is something that's under-appreciated by many in the hobby, with a lot, like me chasing peak PAR figues while not including CO2 output / water flow / CO2 distribution high up the list.



ceg4048 said:


> really wouldn't worry too much about red. People fret over red all day long and it's such wasted energy.
> Were you aware that red and other colors are a result of a pigment production when the plants are subjected to light stress?
> So instead of using the energy they have to grow, they have to divert the energy to production of the pigments, which is very expensive. The pigments fluoresce the excessive energy and in some ways is analogous to sunburn in humans.
> The loss of red is actually a good thing as it is a visual indicator that the plant is no longer under light stress.



Very interesting information, thankyou, seems that it's a stress response to high PUR / PAR levels then?

I assume the red is something that can be worked on in the future as we get to grips with the basics first...



ceg4048 said:


> When the plants are healthy again and when CO2 and nutrition are excellent, the plants will once again produce other pigment types that are even more pleasing. Those pigments will be about the plant optimizing their use of the various wavelengths of light. You can also trigger various pigment response by changing the color of your bulbs. You'll be able to experiment with various color temperatures and after a few weeks. When CO2 is excellent, you will also be able to increase the Radion power and will trigger the same response without also triggering algae.



This seems very similar to reef tanks and corals then, when you acclimate them slowly to reduce the chance of bleaching and die back of zooxanthellae algae within the structures. Throttle back initially, optimise flow of nutrients via water flow then ramp up lights after everything else.

I'm really appreciating the help, i'm trying to learn as I progress in this hobby so I can not only learn and overcome issues while gaining knowledge - I can pass this on to others eventually



ceg4048 said:


> You really need to forget about red for now and focus on solving the injection/distribution puzzle for your tank.



It's odd as I feel that the flow / distribution os relatively good - though my plants are saying differently.



ceg4048 said:


> meter makes things easier, but you can slowly increase the injection rate a few bubbles at a time and monitor the fishes' response.



At the moment i'm at 6BPS (though as it turns out BPS is a misnomer and not the be all and end all to plant health / growth / vitality), i'll see how the fish are going forward.

I'm thinking of adding an air pump during the night time as I read it can promote beneficial bacteria populations due to increasing pH levels that have been supressed during the day due to CO2 injection?



ceg4048 said:


> I need to review the previous posts to determine why the flow rate or distribution scheme is failing and what tweaks are needed.
> 
> Can you please post photos of your revised pump and filter output installation?
> Also, please drop the water level to below the spraybar so we can see the spray pattern.
> ...



At the minute I have an Eheim professional 3 350 which has a supposes output of 1050 LPH.

I run the standard Eheim intake, along with a double spray bar (one is stock, one is shortened with bored out holes from a previous install). On the filter outlet is a CO2 atomiser, and there will be an inline external heater there also this week (reducing flow even further).

The spray bar is situated along the back of the tank, to the back left where there is a deadspot due to the sheperds crook / tubing, I have the Hydor powerhead here, as in level with the spray bar as I can manage

(Excuse the woeful photos)

Filter in situ :



20171127_202253 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr

Outler tubing going to spraybar with atomiser :



20171127_202303 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr

Powerhead to far left, spraybar to centre and right, intake to far right :



20171127_202234 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr

Here is a video of the spray pattern (the flow output looks VERY disappointing, see my footnote regarding this) :



Now regarding filter media, the Pro 3 comprises 4 'baskets' using a bypass filtration system.

Basket 4 contains Eheim 'mech pro' mechanical media - filter basket is 100% full. Link : https://www.eheim.com/en_GB/products/filter-media/mechanical/mechpro.

Basket 3 and 2 contain Eheim 'subtrat pro' biological media - filter baskets are both 95% full. Link : https://www.eheim.com/en_GB/products/filter-media/biological/substratpro

Basket 1 (top basket) contains a coarse blue filter sponge. 100% full.

I am considering upgrading the filter to the biggest Eheim classic - 1500XL with a flow rate of 2400 LPH; The reasons for this are three fold :

1) Much improved flow rate thus better in tank distribution. Also a much larger media capacity  for a larger bacterial colony / media choices.

2) Classic design forcing water from top to bottom through ALL media rather than then more modern 'bypass' design, which, once clogged compromises media flow-through.

3) The pump is a self contained Eheim 1260 circulation pump which can be upgraded to the 1262 eventually rated at 3400 LPH.


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## ceg4048 (27 Nov 2017)

Hi Anthony,
                   Boy, that video is kind of dark. I kept getting distracted by the programming on the tele. A gripping drama, no doubt, however, the beautiful brunette cannot offer us any advice. 

So, a couple of things are going wrong, straight off the bat:
Firstly, when you gang the two spraybars together, there is a terrible pressure loss across the assembly, so the momentum coming out of the holes tend to be decreased.
This might not be so bad, but you are exacerbating the problem tremendously because of all the absurd filter media you have in the Pro 3.
There is no way you need that much filter media, especially those ridiculous noodles. They are killing your flow rate because they are designed specificall to reduce the flow rate. I would remove every single noodle and replace them with simple blue foam. I would estimate you have 200-300X more filter media surface area than you need. Those Efisubstratum or whatever  are also killing your flow, but not quite as much as the noodles. have a read of https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/bio-media-for-fluval-305.29612/

I can see in the video at about the 15 second mark and on that the taller stems are swaying nicely but I'm unsure whether the cause is the turbulence from having a low water level. So my question is; do the plants sway like that when the water is at the normal level? If so, then you are not far away and it may be that a simple tweak of the injection rate will solve the problem. Whether that swaying occurs at the carpet level is another question. Try as I might, I could not tell if the very lowest plants were swaying. In any case, that's is the amount of swaying that all the plants should have.

I never really worry too much about the far corners. It may be that the powerhead is more useful if it is mounted centrally, just under the spraybar and helps the CO2 enriched water to travel to the front glass more easily.

There are as many possible configurations as there are hobbyists and tanks, so you should try different configurations and see which produces the fasted green/yellow DC color.

For sure though, you need to help your filter out. I guess as you mentioned, you intend to replace the filter, but if you do then I suggest you avoid making the same mistake of stuffing the chambers to the gills with  OTT media.



gex23 said:


> I'm thinking of adding an air pump during the night time as I read it can promote beneficial bacteria populations due to increasing pH levels that have been supressed during the day due to CO2 injection?


That is a factor, but the main reason is simply that it helps with oxygenation which all tank inhabitants need, including the bacteria.

Cheers,


----------



## gex23 (28 Nov 2017)

ceg4048 said:


> Hi Anthony,
> Boy, that video is kind of dark. I kept getting distracted by the programming on the tele. A gripping drama, no doubt, however, the beautiful brunette cannot offer us any advice.



My apologies, it was right at the end of the light schedule so had to use ambient lighting.

Here is a video to hopefully demonstrate the flow better :






ceg4048 said:


> So, a couple of things are going wrong, straight off the bat:
> Firstly, when you gang the two spraybars together, there is a terrible pressure loss across the assembly, so the momentum coming out of the holes tend to be decreased.
> This might not be so bad, but you are exacerbating the problem tremendously because of all the absurd filter media you have in the Pro 3.
> There is no way you need that much filter media, especially those ridiculous noodles. They are killing your flow rate because they are designed specificall to reduce the flow rate. I would remove every single noodle and replace them with simple blue foam. I would estimate you have 200-300X more filter media surface area than you need. Those Efisubstratum or whatever  are also killing your flow, but not quite as much as the noodles. have a read of https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/bio-media-for-fluval-305.29612/



Would you recommend I just use the single spray bar for increased flow as opposed to a more even distribution? I've relocated the powerhead underneath the spraybar now.

I've also decreased the CO2 slightly more as I found a deceased rasbora which I fear is related to the increased CO2 levels.




ceg4048 said:


> I can see in the video at about the 15 second mark and on that the taller stems are swaying nicely but I'm unsure whether the cause is the turbulence from having a low water level. So my question is; do the plants sway like that when the water is at the normal level? If so, then you are not far away and it may be that a simple tweak of the injection rate will solve the problem. Whether that swaying occurs at the carpet level is another question. Try as I might, I could not tell if the very lowest plants were swaying. In any case, that's is the amount of swaying that all the plants should have.



Not all the plants sway the same, so this indicates that flow is not enough I feel, at least to distribute the CO2 / nutrients evenly. What's perplexing me is I feel my flow is at least 'adequate' due to the filter size / model and powerhead combo....



ceg4048 said:


> I never really worry too much about the far corners. It may be that the powerhead is more useful if it is mounted centrally, just under the spraybar and helps the CO2 enriched water to travel to the front glass more easily.
> 
> There are as many possible configurations as there are hobbyists and tanks, so you should try different configurations and see which produces the fasted green/yellow DC color.
> 
> ...



The powerhead has now been relocated centrally, directly underneath the spraybar to hopefully help with CO2 distribution.

Regarding filter media, i'll remove the mechanical media and run (top to bottom)

Blue filter spong
Blue filter sponge
Ehfi substrate
Ehfi substrate (or maybe another blue filter sponge if that will improve flow and not compromise the bacterial population too much?)

Noticed my sodastream canister (460 grams) is being used up rather quickly, so may have to upgrade to the 2kg regulator setup...

Many thanks for taking the time to keep replying and advising me. Can I ask how long you've been keeping planted aquariums?


----------



## ceg4048 (28 Nov 2017)

Hi mate,
           You're very welcome. Golly, I started with planted tanks in the late 80's early 90's. There was no youtube and few people had internet. We all thought nutrients caused algae, we trusted our nutrient test kit readings religiously and went through great pains to eliminate any source of NO3 from the tanks. The only thing that mitigated disaster was that most of us could only afford T8 bulbs.. When T5s became available pandemonium broke loose..



gex23 said:


> Noticed my sodastream canister (460 grams) is being used up rather quickly, so may have to upgrade to the 2kg regulator setup...


Yes, I don't think 1/2 kilo will typically go very far unless your configuration is super efficient. Most folks go for the 2Kg-5Kg bottles.

So, that was a much better video, thanks a lot for that, and I can see that the plants are indeed swaying quite nicely, even in the extreme corners. It appears that there is movement at the most difficult region, the carpet, as the hairgrass is swaying.

I think you will get even better movement when you remove the excessive amounts of media. As always with replacing filter media, gradually is better. I think you are well on your way.

It may not be necessary to use a single spraybar if you can unload the media. It is always worth a try just to see what effect it has on flow/distribution.

A shame about the rasbora. This is unfortunately the pitfalls of CO2. Are you supplementing with liquid carbon? This might help to keep a lower injection rate while you sort out the flow.

Cheers,


----------



## gex23 (28 Nov 2017)

Many thanks for the reply - it's interesting reading how advancement in technology has both helped and hindered the progression of this hobby.

At least the flow is getting there now, i'll stick with the double spraybar setup and powerhead located centrally.

Yes i'm also dosing liquid carbon also.

In my attempt to remove the sodastream adaptor from my CO2 regulator, I broke the bubble counter / check valve. So until one's delivered I will have to run liquid carbon (easy carbo) for now.... should I reduce light intensity / photoperiod further? Also reduce ferts? Or keep things stable and just dose liquid CO2 in the meantime?

Many thanks


----------



## ceg4048 (28 Nov 2017)

Ooops...bummer!

If there is no way to run the gas without the bubble counter and if there are no other check valves in the system I would just turn everything off if it'll be just a few days. So that would be kind of like a soft blackout. If we a re talking weeks before you can get the gas up and running then definitely take the light intensity down by half and daily dose or double dose the liquid carbon. Everything else can stay the same.

Cheers,


----------



## gex23 (28 Nov 2017)

Ceg

Seems to be a comedy of errors from me right now..

Many thanks for the prompt response, i'll order one tomorrow but may be early next week by the time it arrives so 

- I will either turn the lights off until then, no ferts, no carbon or lights
- Or can I use a regular airline check-valve for just a few days to keep some consistency going? 

Many thanks


----------



## ceg4048 (29 Nov 2017)

Hi Anthony,
                 Well, try test the air line check valve. I'm not really sure about the clearances in the valve and all that, but you can hook it up to a spare piece of tubing, put a few drops of water  on the arrow point side and apply a little pressure to that side of the line, maybe blowing through it or sucking on it from the other side yourself and see if it passes any water against the arrow. If not then you'r good to go.

If you are diligent, and to make absolutely sure, you can always disconnect the line at the end of every day just to make sure not to ruin your regulator.

If you shut everything down for a week you'll be OK as well, use an airstone 24/7 for good aeration if you go that route. So I really wouldn't worry too much, you've a couple of options.

Cheers,


----------



## gex23 (29 Nov 2017)

Hi Ceg - many thanks for the reply.

I've managed to source and install a bubble counter today, reattach my sodastream and install my new external heater. Running about 5bps at the minute.

Also ordered the pH pen and a 2kg co2 cylinder along with filter foam to reduce filter media and improve flow.

As a result I've resumed the previous low intensity photoperiod, ferts and liquid carbon regime.

One thing I am frustrated by is how my friends low tech self contained 20 litre fluval tank which has nothibg added bar liquid carbon and little maintenance manages to produce and sustain great colours while mines just a wall of green with my lights / equipment (with pretty much the same plants)....


----------



## ceg4048 (29 Nov 2017)

OK, glad you got it sorted.

As far as the other tanks I don't think they are using Radions as well, are they?
Also, 20L of water isn't much to have to push around.
As the tank size increases the difficulty rises exponentially.
I don't think you are considering the proper statistical sample size for comparison. Just have a browse through the Algae section of the forum and count the number of threads having exactly the same problem as you...

Cheers,


----------



## gex23 (29 Nov 2017)

Thankyou, at least it's back online now.

No his setup is an intergrated rear filter chamber with a basic fluval 2.0 LED strip. I guess it's like comparing apples and oranges...

I'm just shocked at how quickly the plants have lost their 'colour' albeit still being green, however I have noticed the algae growth has slowed down....

So what next on this steep learning curve?


----------



## ceg4048 (29 Nov 2017)

Yes, definitely apples to oranges.When plants (and even fish) are healthy then colors are strong but when unhealthy these are the first to be sacrificed, given the chance.
We'll have to see what the pH profile tells us and really, once the plants fatten up there will be a few more options. They will be more robust and will be able to deal with more stress. Weak plants are frail and cannot easily adapt to stress. They just hang on for dear life.

If you want to, you can play with the Radions' color palette and see if you can induce pigment changes that way.

Cheers,


----------



## gex23 (29 Nov 2017)

Ceg,

Hopefully I can regain colouration eventually? Just a bit disheartened looking at looking at an all green tank that started out so colourful

Unfortunately the greens and reds are already maxed out, so I guess there's no way to regain the red colouration right now. The only intensities I can increase are the violet / royal blue / ultra blue.


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## ceg4048 (29 Nov 2017)

It isn't necessarily the case that red light causes red pigments. It doesn't really work that way. Play with the color temperatures from say, 5500 and work your way up in 500K increments. You may find that you induce a more pleasing pigmentation when you move farther into the blue of if you add violet. There are a dozen or more different pigments and they can combine to have different visual effects. You may induce pigmentation that you did not expect, which may not be red, but may be pleasing nevertheless.

Colors come and go as a direct result of the health of the plants as well as a result of the conditions in the tank. Unless a plant is naturally red there is no real guarantee, and no one actually know exactly what combination of parameters results in what pigmentation, so I stopped worrying about it. As long as the plants are provided ample nutrition and good CO2, then the colors typically will be produced.

People use to (and some still do) chase red by starving the plants of Nitrogen so that the red pigments would show through the green chlorophyll. Sometimes they would get red followed later by Nitrogen deficiency syndromes.

As you yourself saw, under excessive lighting the plant did produce protective pigmentation, but what was the penalty? The plant was not healthy enough to resist the excessive amount of light, so ultimately the tank as a whole suffered. As I mentioned, when the tank is healthy they should be able to adapt to higher light stress by producing protective pigments without subsequently disintegrating.

Health first, then color.

Cheers,


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## gex23 (30 Nov 2017)

Ceg, thanks for the information.

One thing i've noticed is that stability and that the tanks vitality in general is an all important condition to getting the a display tank full of colour and happy healthy inhabitants.

I'll leave the lights for now, I want to get the tank stable and then i'll increase intensity slowly to hopefully improve colours.

Dosing and maintenance regime right now :

- Profido Easy Carbo (liquid carbon) - 1.5ml per day
- Profido Ferrol (iron supplement) - 1ml per day
- TNC complete fertiliser - 2.5ml per day
- Water changes 50l 2/3 times per week using seachem Prime.

I'll be adding Seachem 'Purigen' in the filter after it's been soaked.

Some photos of the tank right now, noticed a lack of colour but also less algae growth on the glass, plants, substrate, less in general :




20171130_104018 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr



20171130_104343 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr



20171130_104402 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr



20171130_104410 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr



20171130_104416 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr



20171130_104422 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr



20171130_104435 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr


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## ceg4048 (30 Nov 2017)

Hi Anthony,
                   Adding Purigen to your filter will add drag and will reduce the flow rate. Changing the water does exactly the same thing as what Purigen does. Have a read of the thread https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/can-purigen-strip-down-useful-nutritients.26850/

Flow/distribution is the most important thing right now. My advice is to wait until you have a more muscular filter.

Also, when you do the water changes, take out enough water to drop the water level as low as the fish will tolerate and allow the plants that are exposed to air to dry out a little. This gives them a big gulp of air which contains CO2 which they can store in their tissues for use when you fill the tank.

You may also want to consider dry dosing of salts as a more economical and efficient way to provide nutrition. You are spending a lot of money for essentially, water in a bottle.

Cheers,


----------



## gex23 (30 Nov 2017)

Ceg

EI salts will be my next purchase when i run out of the TNC all in one.

Regarding filter I have a couple of options

1) Upgrade to the 1500xl which is 2400lph stated.

2) Add a second filter, most likely a 2217 classic so my combined turnover would be 2000 lph

I like the second idea purely as it's cheaper and gives me some redundancy in case one fails. I am both limited on cabinet space and surprised that my filter isn't up to the job (though i know quoted lph are massively over-rated)

Regards


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## ceg4048 (30 Nov 2017)

Yes, we always have to assume that the filters deliver only about 50% (at best) of their rated flow because they are tested with very little head pressure and with zero media in the bucket. This is a well known cheat. And we know that the leaves require some flow over the surface which generally translates to somewhere between 3X-5X turnover. So we took the phony flow rating into effect and came up with a 10X rating rule to ensure that the filter could move the proper amount of water over the leaves.

Of course a single filter greatly simplifies the installation of external reactor and so forth, whereas multiple filters mean multiple reactors and multiple gas lines etc. However, if that does not bother you then sure, go for the multi-filter approach.

Cheers,


----------



## gex23 (1 Dec 2017)

Thanks for the reply. Understand where you're coming from, it's just frustrating as mine already exceeds the 10x turnover limit?

I'm not too fussed about extra intakes / spraybars, as the monster externals usually have twin intakes anyway.

Regards


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## ceg4048 (1 Dec 2017)

gex23 said:


> Thanks for the reply. Understand where you're coming from, it's just frustrating as mine already hits the 10x turnover limit?


OK, hang on. I had to go back to the OP. It says Fluval Roma 90 which is a 23 USG and Eheim Pro 3 450 GPH? Is this correct?
If so there is no need to get more pumping power. You should have more than enough flow for that tank.
Sorry, I don't know why I was thinking it was a 90 USG tank. I must have confused your tank with someone else's tank.
No, please don't spend any more money mate. This is good enough. The tank will respond to the changes you made. 
Bad things happen quickly in a tank but good things take a while.

Cheers,


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## gex23 (1 Dec 2017)

Many thanks for the continued help and guidance, I hope the results will show eventually.

The Eheim professional 3 350 is stated at 1050 Lph - which equates to 277 Gph - which equates to 12 x volume turnover I believe. The turnover should improve once the blue foam arrives to replace the mechanical and half the biological media too.

I'm happy to buy a second filter to improve flow if that's deemed necessary.

Now going back to the plants, we've concluded that plant colour isn't an indicator of plant health, merely  stress response to protect it from sunlight and other factors, but what about plant vigour?

The reason I ask is a lot of the stems, using the Rotala Wallichi for example, is growing very 'narrow' and leggy rather than having that 'fluffy' look it's had way in the past and in other tanks.

Many thanks

Anthony


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## ceg4048 (1 Dec 2017)

Hi Anthony,
                   Not all color response is associated with stress. Many pigments appear as a direct result of health and response to the spectral environment. In specific cases such as yours, where the plants were under light stress from the Radions the plant produced pigment as a form of protection. When the protection was no longer needed, the resources were diverted to other important functions. As you mention, when the plants are healthy they can and do produce colors, but those pigments are produce for other functions. Pigments cost energy, so the plant does need to be healthy to produce these other pigment types. So there are different reasons for pigmentation.

Narrow and legginess are a direct response to poor flow as discussed in the post https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/old-skool-returnee-london-tap-water.24040/#post-246834 
 Just continue to prune the leggy plants and they will become bushy.

Cheers,


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## gex23 (2 Dec 2017)

Ceg,

Pigmentation is one thing I crave, as I imagine, do most aquascapers, I hope to see it come back in the not too distant future.

I think next WC i'll trim the plants, replant the tops and hope to promote some bushier growth (currently performing 3 x 50l water changes per week).

Also to add, during the WC tonight, I removed the mechanical media and 1/4 of the biological media, replacing it with coarse filter foam.

And as a final note, my Dr Meter PH 100 arrived, so will attempt to calibrate tomorrow and see what the pH is like at lights on.

Many thanks


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## gex23 (3 Dec 2017)

Kessil A160 tunasun bought


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## ceg4048 (4 Dec 2017)

gex23 said:


> Kessil A160 tunasun bought


???


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## foxfish (4 Dec 2017)

gex23 said:


> Kessil A160 tunasun bought


Cool, have you bought a bigger, deeper tank to match the light? or does it have a dimmer that you can turn it right down?
I have not read every post on this thread but it seems to me that, as yet, you have not quite found the best working ratio of light & C02. I cant imagine adding such a powerful light will help at this stage?
Good luck though ....


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## gex23 (4 Dec 2017)

It's been purchased for a few reasons :

1) I intend on upgrading my tank in the next 12 months, either to a 24" cube , or a more conventional 36" x 18" x 18"
2) I had Kessils on my old reeftank, and while they were poorly suited to growing demanding Acropora, the shimmer they created was stunning, and i'd like to see the freshwater version in action.
3) I intend to mount it over the existing tank - but wait Ceg before you sigh in exasperation , it will be run at the lowest intensity, only used for 1 hour at midday as a sort of intense burst. The intensity if the radions will also be decreased to suit, then when the plants are fully healthy I can play with the light settings.

To get back to the tank, the flow from the filter seems to have improved with the removal of the mechanical media, which i'm pleased with so I may hold off a filter upgrade for now.

Still performing 3 x 55(ish) litre water changes per week. Still dosing liquid carbon, TNC ferts at EI estimative levels and iron supplement also.

Here is where the level drops to - not too drastic I hope :



WC by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr

No colour from the plants yet, however the algae is pretty much non existent!


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## gex23 (5 Dec 2017)

Kessil by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr


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## gex23 (11 Dec 2017)

Carrying on the same regime :

- 55l water changes every 2 / 3 days using tap water / seachem prime
- 10ml TNC complete daily (rotala butterfly calculator estimates 90ml per week for EI levels)
- 2ml liquid carbon daily
- 1.5ml FE supplement daily

Sodastream CO2 ran out in 15 days which works out at 28 grams per day or £1.66 per day - very pricey. Will be installing the 2kg FE today.

Lighting, radions intensity increased by 2% to 22% peak, Kessil running lowest intensity on a timer from 1230 - 1430 hours. 

No algae so far, literally none.

Radion / Kessil combo :



Combo by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr

Tank as of today :



20171211_095430 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr



20171211_095401 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr

Noticing the L repens has coloured up as it reaches the light, have trimmed a few Rotala and added L super red 'mini' and some more L arcuata.

Equipment wise:

- Still considering a filter upgrade as opposed to adding additional filters, it's either going to be an Eheim 700 4e (1850 lph) or Eheim 2260 / 1500XL (2400 lph)
- Kessil spectral controller
- CO2art pro elite regulator
- Vortech MP10 QD for less footprint in the tank (dryside motor sits on the outside, just wetside in the tank)
- I'm planning a tank upgrade in 12 months, potentially to a EA aquascaper 1200 or a Red Sea Reefer (sumped I know) 350.


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## ceg4048 (11 Dec 2017)

Hi Anthony,
                   Yes, if you can afford the bigger filter then definitely go for it and you may be able to remove the wavemaker and have a sleeker looking tank.
As I mentioned before, as the plants put on more weight and become healthier, they can more easily adapt to the additional stress of higher light as long as the CO2 remains excellent. You can always increase intensity and then back off if you start to see that they are not adapting well to the new stress level. It does take time for them to adjust however, so I would be very gradual in increasing intensity.

Cheers,


----------



## gex23 (15 Dec 2017)

I'm hopefully collecting a pre-owned Eheim 700 3e with an increased cansiter capacity of 14L and a quoted output of 1850 lph (increased from 1050 lph).

I'll update tomorrow hopefully having collected / installed the 'new' filter.


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## gex23 (16 Dec 2017)

So went to collect the Eheim 700e today, the gentleman asked me if I wanted any 'spares' for nothing, I of course agreed and he produced another 700e, though none working smart panel.

Got them home, factory reset on both and now all working - £800 worth of filters for £110! 

All sorts of smart features like a 12 hour reduced flow 'night' function, self purging, re-calibrates daily, stream mode.

Will install one of them tomorrow - it's gonna be a tight fit!



Eheim 700e by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr



Eheim 700e (2) by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr


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## gex23 (17 Dec 2017)

What a nightmare these 'smart' filters prove to be - so finicky to get running correctly.

Installed one of them today and I have to say - i'm distinctly 'underwhelmed' by the flow increase - looks barely any more powerful than the filter it replaced, despite being 800lph more powerful. I have switched the powerhead off though, so maybe i'm use to seeing the overall flow with this on.

Comparison shot :



20171217_095326 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr

Media :



20171217_094140 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr

Bio media fill level :



20171217_094149 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr

Generic coarse foam shot :



20171217_094202 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr

In situ :



20171217_101534 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr


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## gex23 (20 Dec 2017)

A few updates :

- Figured out the filter, turns out max power isn't max power, thats the factory default preset to 1100 lph, it can be further increased to 1850 lph. I'm running it at approx 1400 lph right now.

- Regime is the same as before, 2 x 50l water changes per week, 10ml TNC complete, 1.5ml Profido FE, 5 ml liquid carbon daily.

- Got a snail explosion in the tank, very small, but numerouns and eating the plant leaves now

- Increased the intensity of the Radions to 30% from 22%, will monitor the algae outbreaks and adjust if needed

- Noticed some BBA on the drop checker and Crypt Parva, I think this is down to CO2 inconsistencies which was down problems with the mechanical timer controlling the CO2 solenoid.

- Also noticed that the plants tend to colour up well when they're close to the surface, such as the L. Repens and L. Super red mini. So i'm not sure how to increase light to get good colour at lower water levels, but not so much that it encourages algae growth down there?

Pre trim :



Pre trim by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr

Minor trim and water change :



Post trim by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr

Nuisance snails  :



Nuisance snails by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr

Ludwigia with different coloured growth tips :



Ludwigia colour difference by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr

BBA :



BBA by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr

A bit on the yellow side.... lol :



Drop checkerjpg by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr


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## ceg4048 (20 Dec 2017)

Hi Anthony,
                    Looking much better. You can spot dose Excel in the front there during water change. Not sure why you should be getting the BBA unless you overshot the max light values and have a different pH profile. You'll need to look at it again. Yellow is fine as long as the fish are OK but the timing is critical.

Cheers,


----------



## gex23 (20 Dec 2017)

Clive,

I haven't got round to calibrating the pH pen yet to even determine the pH profile, i'll hopefully manage it this side of Christmas. I do think it's flucationg pH values, as the CO2 wasn't running properly due to the fire extinguisher sitting on and preventing the mech timer from working, so for a couple of days the drop checker wasn't turning green until 2 hours after the photoperiod began.

The tank is certainly looking healthier, hope to get some colour back soon. Will start EI dosing next month.

Any thoughts on the pesky snails? Assassin snails help?

Many thanks

Anthony


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## ceg4048 (20 Dec 2017)

OK, well unstable CO2 is a primary factor, so that's the likely cause. 

As far as snails, they are very difficult to eradicate because eggs are everywhere. I've done it by being diligent about mechanical removal as well as cranking the CO2 beyond their threshold to drive them out of the tank or to kill them outright. This only works with fish that have acclimated to very high CO2 or with the tank empty of fish.

Cheers,


----------



## gex23 (25 Dec 2017)

Cheers for all your help this year Ceg, its been interesting, educating and helpful! Merry Christmas 

A couple of things :

I've noticed the H polysperma has some curled leaves - deficiency of some kind?




20171225_091527 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr

Also this Rotala has done nothing and not grown at all since being cut and planted about 6 weeks ago. It has no algae on it but no growth at all? It's at the edge of the tank but the flow seems decent and it sits just directly off centre of the left hand Radion....



20171225_091527 by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr


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## gex23 (3 Jan 2018)

EI fertilisers bought. Will start the dosing regime as soon as my TNC complete runs out.

Considering purchasing a doser to deliver the elements in smaller amounts over the course of a day - surely this will provide more consistency?


----------



## kadoxu (4 Jan 2018)

gex23 said:


> EI fertilisers bought. Will start the dosing regime as soon as my TNC complete runs out.
> 
> Considering purchasing a doser to deliver the elements in smaller amounts over the course of a day - surely this will provide more consistency?


Daily dosing is just fine.


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## ceg4048 (4 Jan 2018)

gex23 said:


> I've noticed the H polysperma has some curled leaves - deficiency of some kind?


Hi Anthony,
                 Sorry for the late response, I have been away for Xmas.
I'm always trying to remind folks that any structural deformation is always a result of poor CO2 since Carbon is the main ingredient in structure.
As usual, this always presents us with a puzzle because we may observe that other plants do well in the vicinity and so it is tempting to stray from the path and to look for other causes, but rest assured this is a CO2 issue. Different plants have different strengths and weaknesses, so it is entirely possible that this is a weaker, less efficient specimen than the plants surrounding it, or, that it is such a fast grower that it requires more CO2 than the other slower growing plants. The usual solutions are to be considered, i.e., injection rate increase, light reduction, increased Liquid carbon dosing and so forth, each with it's advantages and disadvantages. You may also wish to consider moving the plant to a different location to see if the mean CO2 levels (or flow) are better at that location. You can also try to prune in order to see if the new leaves are better adapted. Place the cutting in an open area to see if it does better there.



gex23 said:


> Also this Rotala has done nothing and not grown at all since being cut and planted about 6 weeks ago. It has no algae on it but no growth at all? It's at the edge of the tank but the flow seems decent and it sits just directly off centre of the left hand Radion....


Same story here. Slow growth, once lack of nutrients (PO4 especially) are eliminated as a possible root cause, can only be a CO2 issue.
Again, you can try moving the stem around to see how it responds.

The problems in a CO2 tank never get any easier, they only get trickier...

Cheers,


----------



## gex23 (5 Jan 2018)

kadoxu said:


> Daily dosing is just fine.



Cheers.

Just waiting on it arriving now.


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## gex23 (5 Jan 2018)

ceg4048 said:


> Hi Anthony,
> Sorry for the late response, I have been away for Xmas.
> I'm always trying to remind folks that any structural deformation is always a result of poor CO2 since Carbon is the main ingredient in structure.
> As usual, this always presents us with a puzzle because we may observe that other plants do well in the vicinity and so it is tempting to stray from the path and to look for other causes, but rest assured this is a CO2 issue. Different plants have different strengths and weaknesses, so it is entirely possible that this is a weaker, less efficient specimen than the plants surrounding it, or, that it is such a fast grower that it requires more CO2 than the other slower growing plants. The usual solutions are to be considered, i.e., injection rate increase, light reduction, increased Liquid carbon dosing and so forth, each with it's advantages and disadvantages. You may also wish to consider moving the plant to a different location to see if the mean CO2 levels (or flow) are better at that location. You can also try to prune in order to see if the new leaves are better adapted. Place the cutting in an open area to see if it does better there.
> ...



Clive,

I hope you had a good holiday season with family and friends?

So it seems that poor CO2 levels are yet again rearing their ugly head. I have the filter at max flow which equates to 1850 lph, on a 90l tank this should be more than enough.

- Both Hygro species are suffering with deformed leaves
- Rotala Wallichi is narrow, poorly coloured and generally weak in growth
- Rotala Macrandara isn't growing at all (though no algae)

- I don't want to increase liquid carbon, as i'm concerned for the shrimps health
- If injection rate is increased any more, livestock suffer and i've witnessed livestock loss
- I may trim the Macrandra again, see if I encourage any growth at all
- I may mess with the inflow / outflow. Currently have a spraybar on the back wall with inflow in the back right corner. Thinking of replacing with the glass lilypipe on front left, with inflow on the rear left corner (so in effect the water flows from front glass, right hand side and back to the inflow)....

WCs are still 1 x 50 litre every 3 / 4 days with the same fertiliser dosing, increased to 20ml per day (about 10 times the manufacturers proposition for estimated EI levels).

I have to say, I find planted tanks just as tricky as the SPS Acropora tank I kept a few years back. Tempted to go salty again at this rate


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## AndreiD (5 Jan 2018)

All the problems above are related to low co2 or poor flow / distribution of co2 , dont waste your time searching for ferts issues or other dosing types...etc...etc 

Try to fix your co2 issue


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## gex23 (5 Jan 2018)

And how do you suggest I do that?

- Tank volume 90l
- Filter Eheim 700e running max of 1850lph (TWENTY times turnover)
- CO2 Co2art regulator / 2kg FE, running approx 4 bps, drop checker lime green throughout entire photoperiod
- Inline CO2 diffuser last cleaned 3 weeks ago using bleach soak
- Liquid Carbon @ 5ml per day,


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## ceg4048 (5 Jan 2018)

gex23 said:


> And how do you suggest I do that?



Happy New Year Anthony. Yes, all was well, and now, back to the coal mine for resumption of abuse. 

As usual, the first step in resolving any CO2 issue is to reduce the lighting in order to reduce the CO2 demand. I've lost track of your lighting schedule and I seem to recall that you had intended to increase the max intensity to a value above what we discussed earlier. It is entirely possible that in your attempt to induce color changes you increased the intensity too quickly for those particular specimens.

Cheers,


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## gex23 (24 Jan 2018)

Thought i'd check in with a few updates and, as ever, issues :

- Switched over to EI fertiliser regime 3 x macro and 3 x micro doses on alternating days with one day no ferts and a 50 litre WC
- Switched the spraybar out for the old lilypipe and moved the intake to be on the same side as the lilypipe
- Only running the Radions @ 30% peak, 9 hours photoperiod, Kessil not being used as algae is a bit of a problem at the minute
- Running 4 - 5 BPS which is quite high but can't seem to reduce this to a sensible amount of BPS without the CO2 levels being below 30ppm

So the problems :

- Dwarf hairgrass which has been in the tank for about 6 weeks, initially took a while to establish, then grew nice and green, and now it's now yellow and brown in places, definitely struggling
- Staurogyne repens carpet is struggling similarly, poor growth and some melt
- HC added a few weeks ago just isn't adapting, melting away it seems
- Detritus buildup on fine leaved plants - now is this normal? Never noticed it before. I feel my flow rate is more than adequate.
- Poor colour, which seems to be a perennial problem for me, just cannot get red plants to stay or turn red.

A very poor quality video to show flow etc


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## ceg4048 (24 Jan 2018)

Hi Anthony,
                 Well, it looks to me that you have a lot of CO2 mist at the top few inches of the tank and not much movement of the mist to the bottom. The fish seem to be gathered around the bottom near the hairgrass. Is it because you had a camera pointed at them, or could it be that's where the CO2 is at it's minimum value? Why did you remove the spraybar? I know they are ugly but there must be other ones that aren't that awful green color. You could try moving the lily pipe to the right but I'm not sure that would get flow down to the bottom where it's most needed.

Whenever I make a change to the configuration, I always do another pH profile check, which is sometimes more of a reality  or sanity check. You might find that the pH does not drop as quickly and that may throw of the critical timing.

Cheers,


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## gex23 (25 Jan 2018)

Clive

- The fish are very shy and rarely venture from that position or in the plants 
- The lilypipe was put in a week ago, the effects you're seeing have been there longer than that 
- The spraybar was removed to try and create a more natural flow for the fish, but I'll revert back to it
- The CO2 does get down to the substrate but not as effectively


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## Edvet (25 Jan 2018)

gex23 said:


> create a more natural flow


Most fish love flow.


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## ceg4048 (25 Jan 2018)

Hi mate,
          Neons ought not to be shy, but instead should be shoaling out in open areas. Torpedo shaped fish can adjust to any flow. I'm suspecting that they don't like the CO2.As I mentioned, you might want to have  a look at the pH profile again and perhaps try different panes against which to mount the bar.

Cheers,


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## Edvet (25 Jan 2018)

look at 1:50


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## gex23 (25 Jan 2018)

So are you suspecting that the fish are stressed due to excessive CO2 levels?

If so why would my plants be struggling with CO2 shortage?

Confused.


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## ceg4048 (26 Jan 2018)

Anthony,
              Do not be confused. What the fish experience has nothing to do with what the plants experience.

CO2 concentration in the tank is not homogeneous. At every point in the tank the CO2 will vary. As i mention many times ad nauseum, only about 10% of the CO2 you inject actually reaches the plant beds. Carefully study your own video. The mist spraying out of the lily pipe predominantly stays at the top of the tank. Only a fraction actually reaches into the plants which have the most difficulty at the bottom. Your DC turns yellow and you assume that what the DC shows is what the plants see. This is a false assumption.

So at the top of the tank, the CO2 concentration is high, but the gas is on it's way out of the tank. Have you not noticed that the plants that have their stems tall are not suffering CO2 deficiency? That tells you that the CO2 is high near the mid level and top but is poorer nearer to the bottom. This anomaly occurs frequently in CO2 injected tanks so that the fish suffer hypercapnia if they swim at the top where the CO2 is excessive, but the plants suffer CO2 deficiency where the CO2 is at it's worst concentration.

The fishes behavior indicates to us that the distribution of CO2 is uneven, so the fish congregate where the CO2 concentration is at it's lowest.

The riddle of all tanks is how to distribute the gas so that it is not extremely high in one area yet extremely low in another area. That is why we always advocate paying attention to flow rate and distribution.

I must point out again that as the light intensity is increased, the variation in CO2 concentration becomes more of an issue. When the light intensity is low, it's much easier and much more forgiving to have a variation in gas concentration because the demand for CO2 is lowered, which gives you a greater margin of error.

Without a PAR meter, it's very difficult to determine what the actual PAR values are and this causes ambiguity.
If the PAR at the substrate level exceeds the required CO2 concentration at that level then those plants will be at risk of deficiency. Carpet plants are poor CO2 competitors so it is also not a good assumption that all plants have the same ability to assimilate CO2.

Again, this is why we are continually emphasizing that a CO2 profile check is necessary, because the distribution and timing of CO2 may not be what we assumed, even from week to week. The distribution techniques are always in question so that's why we emphasize the use of spraybars, not because lily pipes don't work, but because we have a better chance of good distribution with the spraybars.

It happens to be a common occurrence in CO2 injected tanks that the plants fail due to poor CO2 while the fish suffer from hypercapnia. When this occurs then we know automatically that the combination of our injection rate and our distribution is failing.

Pull the light back and re-establish good CO2 distribution which lowers the CO2 demand and feeds the weakest plants. Move the outputs to different panes to see which position works best.

Cheers,


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## gex23 (6 Feb 2018)

Added :

- 6 x Nannostumus trifasciatus
- Cryptocorne legroi
- Cryptocorne lutea 'hobbit'
- Cryptocorne albida brown
- Pogostemon erectus
- Anubias coffeefolia (left this emersed)




27503780_10155311758402006_6088562353889611941_o by DEAF N1NJA, on Flickr

Lost most the shrimp to what I assume is nitrates caused by EI dosing.

Tank maybe shut down sooner rather than later as SPS are calling me once more...


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## Tim Harrison (7 Feb 2018)

Looking good, nice plant growth.


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## ceg4048 (7 Feb 2018)

gex23 said:


> Lost most the shrimp to what I assume is nitrates caused by EI dosing.


Highly unlikely.
More likely to have been CO2.

Cheers,


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## gex23 (10 Feb 2018)

So this tank will be up in the for sale section soon. Highly unlikely it will sell as a complete setup so the breakdown is follows :

Fluval Roma 90 tank and stand
Eheim Professional 3 700e x 2 
Kessil A160WE
Radion XR15FW
Radion XR15FW
Glass lilypipe and surface skimmer - 16/22mm model.
Stainless steel planting tongs and scissors.
Single stage CO2 regulator from CO2 art.
2kg Fire extinguisher.
Inline heater - 16/22mm model.

PM me if you're interested in anything here


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## ceg4048 (12 Feb 2018)

Hi Anthony,
                   Please use the For Sale/Swap forum section for this purpose.

Cheers,


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## dw1305 (12 Feb 2018)

Hi all, 





gex23 said:


> 6 x Nannostumus trifasciatus


I like these, they aren't a fish you see very ofte.

cheers Darrel


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## gex23 (15 Feb 2018)

ceg4048 said:


> Hi Anthony,
> Please use the For Sale/Swap forum section for this purpose.
> 
> Cheers,



All advertised in the correct section now


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## gex23 (15 Feb 2018)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, I like these, they aren't a fish you see very ofte.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Yes, very nice shoaling behaviour and lovely body shape / understated coloration.

Have gone to a friends newly setup 60P now.


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## Barbara Turner (16 May 2018)

Hi Ceg, 
Makes for a very interesting read lots of very useful information, just a shame it didn't end better. 
Reading the last message I'm guessing he gave up.. 





ceg4048 said:


> Hi Anthony,
> Please use the For Sale/Swap forum section for this purpose.
> 
> Cheers,


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## gex23 (16 May 2018)

Barbara Turner said:


> Hi Ceg,
> Makes for a very interesting read lots of very useful information, just a shame it didn't end better.
> Reading the last message I'm guessing he gave up..



Correct, I broke the system down.

Now in the process of building a poison dart frog vivarium :

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/poison-dart-frog-build-pic-heavy.52400/


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## Barbara Turner (25 May 2018)

Well good luck, looks like an interesting build. At some point I want to combine the two. Disadvantage is If I get the CO2 wrong I could gas the fish and the frogs.


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