# Thinking of giving up Again!!!



## marwil (14 Apr 2009)

Hi guys,
Hopefully you won't mind me having a moan and you may be able to help me. I have become really disheartened with the planted tank game for a second time. A while back I  had a dennerle system which was great for a while but ended up with probably every algae imagineable and gave up. After chancing on this site which is marvellous andI think you guys are great I thought I would have another go and decided to follow ed seeleys tutorial on Ei index. My tank is 69 gallon eco complete substrate fe co2 with rhinox diffuser with a koralia 1 and filtration is 2 eheim 2329 wet and dry filters which I know goes against the grain but understood I'd just have to up co2 to compensate temp is 28c I have some hair algae issues mainly on my juwel rock backgroung and redmoor wood plants are not affected by it, and mulm in the tank is a real problem the stem plants are constantly covered the only way to rid it is to uproot them and clean them in a bucket I use an Eheim sludge extractor but just can,t seem to keep on top of it the tank just looks crap. What I would like to know is as this is a higher temp tank  for discus do I need to up the ferts  excel etc and maybe upgrade the koralia. I am supposed to be getting my discus on the 25th of this month but am thinking of putting it off and giving up again and suffer the wrath of my wife for all the money I've spent    . Any help would be extremely gratefully recieved and save me getting horse whipped from my wife  
                                                                       Whinge over
                                                                            Cheers
                                                                              Mark.


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## Superman (14 Apr 2009)

Hi Mark,

I hope you don't give up, it's just getting the right balance and then you'll be onto a winner.

Higher temps will mean that gases such as co2 and o2 will be driven off quicker.

My stems get mulm around the substrate and I leave it to be honest but when I does get too much I get the vac to siphon it out. Obviously, increased filtration will help to remove any muck.


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## nry (14 Apr 2009)

How are you monitoring CO2 levels?  If fertilisation is sufficient, the CO2 levels need to be high enough and stable for the plants to benefit fully.

Has the tank got any fish in?  If so what type?

Did the tank cycle fully before adding fish if you do have them?

What's your lighting levels/type and fertilisation routine?  Cleaning regime?


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## marwil (14 Apr 2009)

hi Lighting is 3 x 54w t5s on for 7 hours co2 monitered by drop checker with 4dkh 50% water change weekly with mulm removal in between and   ei fertilization.Tank was cycled before fish at the moment there is cardinal tetras and otocinclus.
                                                                      Cheers
                                                                         Mark


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## ceg4048 (14 Apr 2009)

Hi,
   I would strongly advise against adding discus until you have sorted out the plants. There are no adjustments necessary due to a 28 degree tank.

You can help yourself most by disabling one or more of the light bulbs.

You should also do at least 2X per week 50% or more water changes.

The mulm you mention is most likely diatom algae, which is driven by your lighting. Killing some or most of the light will reduce the occurrence of this. 

You should stop uprooting plants. Each time you uproot a plant you are destroying the interface between root and substrate. This takes time to re-establish when you put them back in the substrate and the plants suffer even more. Continue to use a water siphon to pull the algae away from the plant. You can even use your hands and a soft cloth to wipe them clean but try to avoid uprooting. 

I would also avoid using the sludge extractor. This device merely pulls ammonia laden substrate up and discharges it back into the water column. Whoever invented this device should be severely flogged.

Cheers,


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## Ed Seeley (15 Apr 2009)

Don't give up mate.  

You're much better to syphon any mulm out during your water changes rather than use those powered 'cleaners'.  Most of the time the detritus simply goes through the machine and back into the tank!  As Clive said, up the water changes for a while and you should get rid of the mulm and remove as much algae as possible each time too.

I think you also need to check out your CO2.  How are you measuring the CO2 level in the tank?  Do you have a drop checker with 4dKH indicator?  When this is green you will have 30ppm CO2 in the water.

BTW it's Clive's (ceg's) tutorial on EI not mine!


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## GreenNeedle (15 Apr 2009)

Ceg has already said everything I would've.

The only thing that caught my attention was the following question:



> Did the tank cycle fully before adding fish if you do have them?



I'm not sure how this affects the situation.  Many of us in planted do not cycle tanks with no problems.

AC


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## LondonDragon (15 Apr 2009)

Its just too easy to just give up, find out what you were doing wrong and correct it, growing healthy plants is not that difficult, you just have to find the right balance between CO2 and lighting and dose accordingly together with the right filtration/flow around the tank and thats most of your problems sorted.

I was running 144w of light in my 125 liter tank for a test and got algae breaks and plant dificiencies, as soon I reduced it to 96w most of the problems I was having went away, too much light and not enough CO2 is the major cause of most problems in the planted tank scene.

Just ensure you have nice flow around the tank, make sure you dosing correctly for your tank size and preferably daily dosage, then ensure your drop checker is lime green during lights on, and then concentrate on the light levels, start low and then increase it if necessary


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## marwil (15 Apr 2009)

Hi Guys 
Thanks again for the replys





			
				Ed Seeley said:
			
		

> BTW it's Clive's (ceg's) tutorial on EI not mine!


Apologies to clive what I meant to say was I was following Ed's tutorial on the higher tech tank   



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> I would also avoid using the sludge extractor. This device merely pulls ammonia laden substrate up and discharges it back into the water column. Whoever invented this device should be severely flogged.


Another Â£40 quid wasted then   

I'll try and figure out how to post pictures and hopefully you good fellas could give me some feedback tips as apart from these teething problems I'm generally not happy with it so any inspiration would be most welcome
                                                                 Cheers
                                                                    Mark


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## ceg4048 (15 Apr 2009)

Hi,
   Check the Technical section. You'll find the thread entitled How do you post a picture? worthwhile.

Cheers,


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## Themuleous (15 Apr 2009)

Don't give up!  I've been working at planted tanks for 3 years now and I know how bloomin frustrating it can be.

From what you said the best thing you can do is reduce the lighting, I've got a 250lt and it only needs 2x54w tubes, 3 and the plants couldn't cope.

Sam


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## marwil (10 May 2009)

Hi Guys an update on my tank/disaster any help would be very gratefully recieved as I'm at my wits end with it, its just going from bad to worse I ended up getting my discus as the week previously tank had been fine. Stats are 69 gal tank with eco complete substrate ro water remineralized with dennerle ro stuff co2 injection by fe always in the green now koralia 1 for flow, dose by ei 30mls trace and 15mls kno3 kp04 and 10mls easicarbo daily 50% water change per week with roughly 40/50 ltrs daily when I syphon out uneaten discus food. Should I strip it down and start again or is there something else you guys can suggest. Regards Mark


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## Superman (10 May 2009)

Is the filter intake behind those plants pictured?
I'd try and move the filter intake into a more open place within the aquarium.
It seems to me that the plants are covered in muck and then algae has formed rather than just algae.

How are the other plants going?


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## marwil (10 May 2009)

Hi The whole tank is the same there is an intake and outake at either end I did have spraybars but they flow was too powerful all the plants were bent double filtration is by two eheim 2329's.
 cheers Mark.


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## Nick16 (10 May 2009)

you only do about a 50L change a week? 

your tank must be around 250-300L. id be wanting to change 30% twice a week at a minimum. you need to be doing 25% every 2 days to help resolve your algae issues. (there is other things to address of course)


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## marwil (10 May 2009)

Hi Nick I do a 50% water change a week and then every day I syphon out at least another 50 ltrs to remove uneaten food from my discus.
regards Mark


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## GreenNeedle (10 May 2009)

Are you sure it is 30ml traces and 15ml NPK?

15mls NPK sounds OK for your size tank  but I would expect the trace to be nearer to 5ml.

AC


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## amy4342 (10 May 2009)

It's a shame, cos it's a stunner of a tank without the algae! I would try giving the spray bars another go, but maybe drilling extra holes inbetween the pre=drilled ones, or drilling the existing holes to make them bigger - it lessened the force of the outflow, or try blocking the inlet slightly so theres not as much force coming through the spray bars. I think that could help shift some of the algae and prevent more from forming.


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## marwil (11 May 2009)

Iam following ed seeleys tutorial on the higher tech tank so according to my calculations 30mls is correct http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=1275.
Regards
Mark


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## ceg4048 (11 May 2009)

marwil said:
			
		

> Iam following ed seeleys tutorial on the higher tech tank so according to my calculations 30mls is correct


Mark, you're missing the big picture. As I've said many times before, stripping down the tank won't get you anything but temporary relief because you will repeat the same mistakes and you'll get the same results as you're having now. One needs to understand the weaknesses of a particular tanks configuration and then learn how to overcome those weaknesses.

Let's go back to the beginning. Algal blooms typically are due to a combination of factors, the major ones being; 
1) Too much light.
2) Poor nutrient levels.
3) Poor flow/distribution.
4) Poor CO2.

You need not look any further than these four items, and you must believe that if you have blooms then one or more of these factors are to blame. Failure is inevitable when we trick ourselves into thinking that all four of these factors have been optimized. The algae is telling you that they are not.

1) Too much light.
Have you reduced the lighting as suggested in previous posts? if so is it possible to reduce it further, at least in the short term?

2) Poor nutrient levels.
That first picture shows what looks like the beginnings of a BGA bloom in the upper right area of the image. BGA means that either the tank is running low on Nitrate or that the plants in that region are unable to uptake sufficient quantities of Nitrate. There is a _possibility_ that you need to add more of your macro mix. Regardless of who's dosing formula you use, your tank is the ultimate indicator. Presumably your daily fert dosing occurs after the daily 50L replacement, correct? One needs to be flexible in one's thinking in that sometimes, more nutrients may need to be added in order to compensate for other weaknesses in technique. Typically the weakness comes in the form of...

3) Poor flow/distribution.
Not only do you need a high turnover rate, as discussed previously, but you also need to have good distribution so that all areas of the tank have continuous access to nutrients and so that waste products are carried away. Trimming these high growing stems will facilitate better flow distribution for example. You may also need to reposition your filter's return flow and supplementary powerheads to ensure that you don't get stagnation. It's not clear where these are positioned so it's difficult to visualize your flow patterns. Could you show a diagram or otherwise clarify?

4) Poor CO2.
Last, but certainly not least is the plants ability to uptake this most critical of all ingredients. Unfortunately, having discus now makes adjustment a very touchy issue. The gas should be turned on 1-2 hours before the lights come on. You may need to increase the injection rate. If the lighting is not excessive and if the flow/distribution is excellent then the injection rate increase can be minor which would reduce the stress on the fish..

Cheers,


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## marwil (11 May 2009)

Hi Clive 
Thanks for your reply I have indeed reduced the light so I was listening to that one . Funny you should bring up the nitrate thing I did a test yesterday and it was showing 0ppm now as I have said Iam using 2 2339 eheim wet and dry filters and they are supposed to be good with the nitrate removal. I leave the co2 on 24/7 now the drop checker is constantly in the green I've also removed the redmoor wood as I felt it was doing anything for the tank so flow should improve do you think I should put the spraybars back and maybe as amy said increase the size of the holes in them and also do you suggest upping the ferts and yes its always after the water change. 
Cheers
Mark.


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## TDI-line (11 May 2009)

Personally if your following everything that Clive has said, then i feel that it's your 2 wet and dry filters that may be letting you down, removing to much Nitrate and Co2. Unless of course there is some benefit that i am unaware of myself.

Good luck, and please don't give up.


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## ceg4048 (11 May 2009)

marwil said:
			
		

> Hi Clive
> Thanks for your reply I have indeed reduced the light so I was listening to that one .


OK, that's good, otherwise the problem might be more severe.


			
				marwil said:
			
		

> Funny you should bring up the nitrate thing I did a test yesterday and it was showing 0ppm now as I have said Iam using 2 2339 eheim wet and dry filters and they are supposed to be good with the nitrate removal.


Well, first of all, you need to stop testing, because a 0ppm reading is almost impossible if you are dosing EI so that's just confusing the issue. Reaching for some miserable test kit when things go awry is the worst reaction one can possibly have. Secondly, unless I'm missing something, I know of no biological filter that removes nitrate, unless you have added some sort of nitrate removing resin. As far as I'm aware wet/dry filters facilitate the same biological processes as ordinary filters in that they oxidize ammonia into nitrite/nitrate via bacterial colonies. I'm not familiar with an Eheim model 2339, are you sure these aren't 2229 instead? If so then you have a combined rating in the neighborhood of 2000LPH. In any case, as discussed, you may have a distribution problem so I would at least put the spraybars back on and see if things improve. Stop worrying about whether the fish are annoyed by the flow. This can always be modified later on to find a happy medium. Fixing the distribution right now is top priority.


			
				marwil said:
			
		

> I leave the co2 on 24/7 now the drop checker is constantly in the green


Well, again, this is not a panacea. Your particular tank may require a higher injection rate.


			
				marwil said:
			
		

> I've also removed the redmoor wood as I felt it was doing anything for the tank so flow should improve..


Well the wood is an aesthetic item so I see no reason to remove it. You will generate much better flow by keeping the overgrowth trimmed and neat. 





			
				marwil said:
			
		

> do you think I should put the spraybars back and maybe as amy said increase the size of the holes in them and also do you suggest upping the ferts and yes its always after the water change..


I suggest that you remount the spraybars but do not play with the hole enlargement yet. Each filter comes with at least one spraybar correct? Utilize all of them. Ensure that the spray exit angle is aligned with the horizontal and ensure that the bars are mounted as close to the water level as possible without causing bubbles but just rippling the surface. Increase the macro dosage by at least 50% and observe for 3 weeks.

Here is a photo I use a lot to illustrate proper spraybar alignment. You can see the gaps in the pattern and that's where two spraybars are ganged together, so there aren't any holes at the joints. Ganging the bars (or pieces thereof) reduces the exit velocity while giving you better coverage across the length of the tank. This usually works better than hole enlagement because you could easily enlarge the hole too much which would have the counterproductive effect by reducing the velocity too much.






Cheers,


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## marwil (12 May 2009)

Thanks for the reply Clive  great as always.


> I'm not familiar with an Eheim model 2339, are you sure these aren't 2229 instead?


that should of said 2329 I think it is the same actually apart from you can use the 2329 on marine tanks something to do with the heating element.[


> I suggest that you remount the spraybars but do not play with the hole enlargement yet


I shall put the spraybars back  without the hole enlargement.


> Stop worrying about whether the fish are annoyed by the flow.


I have got the koralia 1 back in as I really felt the 3 was far to poweful not just the fish but all the plants were bent double

I'll do as you said and report back in a few weeks thanks again.
Regards
Mark.


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