# Best substrate for breeding CRS



## LondonDragon (8 Jun 2010)

Any one has any ideas??? I am thinking about trying ADA Amazonia, from what I have been reading seems to be the best but they do say it should be replaced every 12 months which I didn't want to do?

Any long term solutions anyone know about?

Cheers


----------



## andyh (8 Jun 2010)

LondonDragon said:
			
		

> Any one has any ideas??? I am thinking about trying ADA Amazonia, from what I have been reading seems to be the best but they do say it should be replaced every 12 months which I didn't want to do?
> 
> Any long term solutions anyone know about?
> 
> Cheers



Both me and my dad have both used amazonia in our CRS tanks and we have both had breeding success. I also would add I  haven't replaced the substrate after a yr? Still going strong in a second tank.

Andy
p.s and i know you will most likely know this paulo, but make sure the amazonia has well and truly done its ammonia spike, as CRS are sensitive little buggers!


----------



## NeilW (9 Jun 2010)

I've been thinking of the same question and been doing some research recently as I was thinking of setting up a breeding tank for Blue Tigers.  I think it depends on your goals: wether you predominately want a planted tank with shrimp, or a shrimp tank with plants   (with the planted tank goal you may compromise 'ideal' conditions e.g. risk of ammonia spike; still a balanced system but just something to consider especially if you like to move plants about).  I think as you say it also depends on wether your prepared to strip the the thing down every year.    

*The Planted Tank with Shrimp* 
If you want longer term, shrimp friendly alternatives could check out some of the Diana Walsted substrate ideas and go low-tech?  Aquasoil Malaya or Akadama are meant to be alright too, quite a few breeders make use of them.       

*The Shrimp Tank with Plants*
After doing some research myself surprisingly it seems that sand is the best option if planning to breed CRS long term without having to change substrate every year.  Sand has the following benefits;  

- It doesn't contain any of the voodoo water changing properties of the specialist soils which can have negative effects and seems to be a bit of an unknown (the Shirakura Red Bee Sand seems to have mixed reviews as some have found it actually manages to kill shrimp and its PH altering properties) and need changing every year.

- you can have tighter control of the water chemistry with a combo of RO and tap without exhausting the soil

- Easy to clean out the nasties by giving it a stir and easy to replace/refresh

- I don't know if this has any reasoning or foundation but my shrimp seem to love feeding from sand.


With different 'goals' in mind this means I'm using Florabase in my main setup as it could be changed in a year and the focus is the aquascape, whilst in this new setup for Blue Tigers I'll use sand and gravel.

Saying all this though as you know people all have different experiences and aims, but just thought I'd share some of my findings and thoughts   Some lucky gits get their CRS to breed in all sorts of dishwater  

Just found an insightful link;
http://www.blue-tiger-shrimp.com/blog/shrimp-soil-2/


----------



## bogwood (9 Jun 2010)

Interesting one, we all seem to have different ideas on whats best to use.

When i was into CRS in a big way, i read up as much as i could, and listened to what people doing.in the end i decided to go for ADA amazonia.

The plants i went for were not demanding, mainly christmas moss, Riccardia Graeffei, P. Helferi, and Rotala.and a floating plant limnobium laevogatum, which the shrimps loved. 

All grew fine, but most inportant for me, the CRS flourished and produced young on a regular basis. The color against the dark substrat, and green was amazing. And easy to spot the young shrimplets.
The PH was also pretty constant at 6.5. I ran this set up for 18 mths.


----------



## a1Matt (9 Jun 2010)

I can not say what is best, but I will chip with my experience...

I bred CRS whilst using akadama as the substrate.
low tech, infrequent water changes with london tap water at first. 
Then after 9 months switched to RO and frequent water changes.
No difference to the shrimp at all either way.


----------



## LondonDragon (10 Jun 2010)

Choices choices!! no definite answer to what its best, I might have to get another nano and perform a test.

Used sand in one, ADA Amazonia in the other, get 10 CRS and after a year see which does best, with the same filter and cleaning regime.


----------



## bogwood (10 Jun 2010)

LondonDragon said:
			
		

> Choices choices!! no definite answer to what its best, I might have to get another nano and perform a test.
> 
> Used sand in one, ADA Amazonia in the other, get 10 CRS and after a year see which does best, with the same filter and cleaning regime.


Thats the way foward................ Now if i tried to get that idea past the wife, Not repeatable :silent:


----------



## NeilW (10 Jun 2010)

LondonDragon said:
			
		

> Used sand in one, ADA Amazonia in the other, get 10 CRS and after a year see which does best, with the same filter and cleaning regime.


Be interesting to see, I'll keep my eyes peeled.  I reckon Amazonia may do better if its not disturbed.  Only running for a year means you won't have the downside of it turning to mud and it'll buffer the water well.  Dunno what I'd put my money on though


----------



## LondonDragon (10 Jun 2010)

NeilW said:
			
		

> Be interesting to see, I'll keep my eyes peeled.  I reckon Amazonia may do better if its not disturbed.  Only running for a year means you won't have the downside of it turning to mud and it'll buffer the water well.  Dunno what I'd put my money on though


I don't really touch the substrate in the shrimp tank, all slow growers and nothing rooted into the substrate for ages! yet it gradually turns to mud!! I have noticed the Flora Base is not breaking as easy as the ADA and Naturesoil did! I will give the Florabase a few extra months to see also.


----------



## oliverar (14 Jun 2010)

This is helpful thank you! I was woundering if the substrate makes a diffrence?


----------



## Dincho (8 Sep 2011)

Useful Link: http://www.shrimpkeeping.com/substrate.html - Its lists all the different shrimp substrates and their target parameters.


----------



## Bungy (13 Sep 2011)

Well here we are nearly a year since the last posting on this thread.  I just wanted to get some opinion on my CRS / CBS setup.  Im using ADA Amazonia II substrate, planted well with simple Anubia's, Vallis and Java moss and fern. I have a sizeable chunk of bogwood in there too.  Tank is approx 50L and currently houses approx 30 CRS and 20 CBS.

I live in a hard water area on the South coast and have been a Malawi keeper/breeder for many years which suits them just fine however CRS/CBS require more exacting parameters and in particular lower PH GH and KH.  Currently my tap stats read as follows:

PH 7.5
GH 6
KH 16

Im using a sponge filter and simply dont seem to be able to lower my PH.  Ive turned to introducing rain water but although my shrimp are berried regularly the young simply dont survive.  I have today bought some RO water and changed approx 5 Litres, ill repeat over the next week.  I have read much in regard to Mosura products: CRS FOOD, EXCEL, MINERAL PLUS, SHRIMP TONIC and OLD SEA MUD - all of which have rave reviews and are said to be a MUST by the pro Japanese breeders.   Im very keen to learn how I get my CRS/CBS shrimpletts to survive....?


----------



## Dincho (27 Sep 2011)

Stable parameters are the key. You need to get you ph down to about 6.6 -6.8, KH 0 and GH 4-6. You need to get yourself a good shrimp substrate that will buffer the water to these parameters, then you need to use RO water with added minerals supplements. 

If you do all the above, plus use a good baby food you should be getting at least an 85% survival rate. Mosura is OK but not great, look for Benibachi or Ebi-ten, its much better!!!


----------



## Bungy (27 Sep 2011)

Stats now KH3 / GH4 but PH remains around 7.4
Using RO with NOTHING added as yet.  Loads of berried fems but still no shrimpletts....!
I dont want to go upsetting the substrate at this stage unless I absolutely have to - I believe the Amazonia II is ok for CRS - can you confirm please?

Where in your opinion should I purchase the mineral supplements...?


----------



## Dincho (27 Sep 2011)

Amazonia should be fine. If you can get you KH a little lower it will be easier to get the PH down. Is there anything in your tank that could be buffering the water? any rocks in the tank?

Benibachi have a new online store in the UK, i would look no further than there. www.benibachi.co.uk Benibachi do something called Black Control, its meant to soften the water, i have not used it personally but have heard good reviews from people that have.


----------



## Bungy (27 Sep 2011)

Thanks Dincho, Ill deff check that site out later.  I have nothing in the tank that would buffer the PH with the exception of a sponge filter - I know this will increase PH and have thought about replacing with a small internal filter with fine mesh over the intake.   So assuming I purchased some "additives" are these simply mixed with the RO water and added to the tank or do I need to do something drastic ???


----------



## Dincho (27 Sep 2011)

No, just mix with the RO water. Because the RO water is stripped of everything, the minerals/supplements etc just add back the goodness that is needed. Just make sure your GH does not go below 4, it can cause molting problems and kill the shrimp. The good thing about the Benibachi range is they use mostly natural ingredients,so its virtually impossible to overdose.


----------



## Bungy (27 Sep 2011)

Brilliant, thank you so much for this advice.  Perhaps now my shrimpletts will survive...!!


----------



## Antoni (27 Sep 2011)

I'm using Shirakura substrate at the moment, which tents to buffer the pH. I'm using Ro water and I'm adding Mironekuton minerals every 4-5 days. Feed my cherries and Amanos with Mironekuton premium shrimp food, which has some goodies in /66 minerals, catappa leaves/. For the shrimplets I have prepared Shirakura Chi ebi    The colours that I have achieved are just great, bearing in mind, the poor quality RCS I got from the shop.

Will take some pictures later on. Benibachi seems to be good too, will try some of their products definitely.


----------



## Bungy (27 Sep 2011)

Nice one Antoni, we must chat at the next PAS meeting (5th) or pop up to me and see my setup.


----------



## Dincho (27 Sep 2011)

Shirakura was the first brand i ever used, i thought it was brilliant until i tried others. The substrate is their best product, i have it in about 6 of my shrimp tanks, the only downside is it lasts about 6 months less than other substrates that do the same job.

Give Benibachi or Ebi-Ten a try, you will never go back to Shirakura.


----------



## Antoni (27 Sep 2011)

Certainly will do, Bungy! I will love to see your setup too and get some of your shrimps  



			
				Dincho said:
			
		

> Shirakura was the first brand i ever used, i thought it was brilliant until i tried others. The substrate is their best product, i have it in about 6 of my shrimp tanks, the only downside is it lasts about 6 months less than other substrates that do the same job.
> 
> Give Benibachi or Ebi-Ten a try, you will never go back to Shirakura.



That is really interesting! I will try them for sure, the only problem is that in UK you can not get hold of any shrimp substrates...


----------



## Aquadream (27 Sep 2011)

I have been using only Shirakura for CRS both in the tank and in the external filter. I do not know how so many say that it does not last long, but in my set ups it goes for years an there was never crumbling problems, not once.
Certainly the rumour that Sirakura can actually kill shrimp is a big manure business.
The survival rate in my CRS tanks is always over 95%.
I use RO water with GH (self made) booster only, no additives, no ferts or CO2.
I also use some moss, Fissidens Fontanus in particular, which developes very well in CRS tank propagating only on byproducts from the shrimp feeding.
The filtration is done by under gravel filters (self made) and external filters Eheim 2224 filled with only Shirakura substrate for e medium.
The under gravel filter is basically a flat plastic plate 1.5mm thick with a lot of holes and a net on top so that the Shirakura substrate will not pass trough. Then the plastic plate is placed on top of several stand offs made out of shortened plant pots.

As for the Shirakura shrimp food I am not convinced that is as good as some other foods out there, but never had a comparative test done to establish what is what.

I can not say how does Shirakura substrate compares to other brands. From my experience it is perfect in any every way.


----------



## Dincho (27 Sep 2011)

That is the only downfall  Although, more and more people are starting to use Akadama bonsai soil, which is fairly easy to get hold of over here. I tried it in a few tanks but didn't like the colour so changed it, for the short time it was in there it done a great job buffering the water. If you don't mind a lighter substrate then i recommend giving it a go, its cheaper than substrate too.


----------



## Dincho (27 Sep 2011)

Aquadream said:
			
		

> I have been using only Shirakura for CRS both in the tank and in the external filter. I do not know how so many say that it does not last long, but in my set ups it goes for years an there was never crumbling problems, not once.
> Certainly the rumour that Sirakura can actually kill shrimp is a big manure business.
> The survival rate in my CRS tanks is always over 95%.
> I use RO water with GH (self made) booster only, no additives, no ferts or CO2.
> ...




I have to agree its a good substrate, the issue i had was its lifespan, 12 months tops. After 12 months it stops buffering the water so well and ph levels start creeping up. I have also heard many stories about it killing shrimp, its blahblahblahblahblahblahblahs, people used it as an excuse for there poor understanding of the hobby.

I know use Ebi Gold, same colour, size and target parameters as the Shirakura but it lasts about 6-8 months longer.


----------



## Aquadream (27 Sep 2011)

Dincho said:
			
		

> Aquadream said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think it all depends on the load. More shrimp in one case less in the other. Differences in the water supplements and so on.

My smaller CRS tank is only 15 litres. It does not have under gravel filter. It was started about 18 months ago. The gravel is still in one piece and the water parameters are all the same.
I guess the reason is that I do not expect the substrate to buffer anything and therefore stop doing the job. I just use the RO water with the correct GH buffer and always keep the same water parameters at the regular water changes.


----------

