# NA Style ADA 60P



## Sid.scapes (15 Dec 2021)

First Draft


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## Sid.scapes (15 Dec 2021)

Got some great feedback from Thierry and added more details.


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## Sid.scapes (15 Dec 2021)




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## Sid.scapes (10 Jan 2022)

The tank is now cycled. It's currently hosting a small molly family until I find a more suitable home for them.  I am still not completely decided on the planting plan and I have to take a two-week international trip at the end of the month so I will let this carry on as is for few more weeks.


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## Sid.scapes (10 Jan 2022)

Since I can't plant anything right now, I am using this time to fiddle around with the tech (hence the gimmicky orange background). I find this Flux Chroma RGB to be quite dim for scaping purposes and the white color setting looks obnoxiously purple so I am planning to replace it with Kruger Auqaristic or ISTA lightscreen (Provided Kruger one comes back in stock in time)

I was also thinking of replacing the skimmer with Vuppa 2 but it seems too extravagant so it may not happen soon.


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## Sid.scapes (28 Feb 2022)




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## Sid.scapes (28 Feb 2022)

I really need to be more consistent with the updates here but nevertheless, here's the latest.

I have swapped out Week Aqua light for Chihiros  Vivid2 since I think Chihiros app is a bit more user-friendly. I have also swapped flux lightscreen with ADA to get rid of annoying blue tint.

Plating wise, I have added the background plants now. From left to right in the order - pogostemon erectus, rotala colorata, ludwigia p. super red, pogostemon erectus and staurogyne repens.
I have added a bit of riccardia chemydryfolia on the wood where glue-marks were more prominent. I also found some Microsorum Petite from K2Aqua that is now on the hardscape. I have not glued it because I might move them around for a bit.


Next steps - I will be adding more tiny buces by the end of this week and some F. miroshaki covered rocks. I also need to add some sand in the front. I will be adding more epiphytes and probably a new fern as well but I am not rushing that for now since I don't want the plants to overwhelm the hardscape. Potential candidates are - Microsorum Philippine Mini and/or the good old trident (or trident mini if I can find one)


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## Sid.scapes (8 Apr 2022)

This is going to be a long update - I am running into a few issues with this scape and it looks like the reason is random ammonia spikes.

Some factors which might be relevant here (in the sequence)

*Soil *- I have used Aquario Neo Plant soil in this scape. I didn't appreciate just how easily it breaks and I ended up crushing a lot of it while playing with hardscape.

*Filter *- The scape is powered by Oase Bio Master 350 and two chambers are filled with Aquario Neo Pure bio media and two with sponge.

*Dark Start - *I kicked of this scape with a dark start BUT made one crucial change. For nearly a month or so, I ran it at a significantly warmer temperature (30-31 degree c) with an intent to help nitrifying bacterias settle. I was also dosing extra Seachem Stability at this point to help cycle the tank and in two weeks or so, the nitrites were 0, and ammonia was about 5 ppm and nitrate was about 5ppm. Diatoms bloomed and vanished by the time I started planting.

*Root Tabs -  *After nearly 1.5-2 months of the dark start method, I lowered the temperature to 23 degrees and planted this tank with Starygyne Repens, Pogostemon Erectus (Both Tropica Tissue Culture) plus Rotala Colorata and Ludwigia Sp. Super Red (These two were sent by friends and were held up in the post. When I planted them in the tank, the tips were nearly dried out so I assume they were quite damaged at this point). I started dosing APT Zero (Non-NP fert) at this point but noticed that plants were growing remarkably slower than they ever have in any of my other scapes. Upon checking the parameters, I realised that nitrates are almost zero so I decided to add some Aquario NPK root tabs (1 tab in every 4 square inch area) with an assumption that running the scape at 33 degrees for prolonged periods, exhausted the soil of nutrients.

*Fish Meds* - With plants, I also added about 4 rescued mollies in the tank and they were suffering from the worm infestation so I decided to treat them with Esha NDX. I did not follow the instructions and left it in the tank at the recommended dosage for  72 hours instead of 24. I noticed the diatoms bloom after a few days. Since then I have dosed seachem stability almost on daily basis and have done 33-50% water changes twice a week.

At this point, it's nearly 3.5 months since I started this scape and the plants are showing severe Nitrate deficiency (stunted and discoloured tips). I have switched to APT Complete (2ml a day) and that has improved the growth to a certain degree but the plants are still very much struggling.  I have measured CO2 by ph meter and it shows a full 1-1.5 point pH drop. CO2 is inline but to ensure that distribution is even throughout the tank, I have placed the drop checker at different points and observed that it does turn light green/yellowish-green throughout the different spots in the scape.

I use RODI water and remineralise it with SaltyShrimps GH+. Current Gh/Kh is at 9 and 8 respectively. I suspect the increased Kh is due to seiryu stone in the base. 

I am suspecting that the main reason why I keep getting diatom blooms is Ammonia spike and I am trying to find out why is it happening. I can't see any reason why my cycled would crash and remain crashed. It has about 3 litres of bio-media (the same media is working amazingly on my 45p which is stable as a rock) in a fairly powerful bio master 350, it gets a dose of Seachem stability almost on daily basis at this point and I've never skipped a water change.

I am suspecting that one of the root tabs could have come up near the surface and could be causing random spikes in the tank? Or could it be accumulating as a result of extra dosing of APT complete? 
Either way, I am super confused and could really use your thoughts.

@CooKieS @Geoffrey Rea @Courtneybst 


Diatoms covered S. Repens and P.Errectus in the right most part of the tank (this area has the highest flow and the highest amount of diatoms. The photos are from phone so not the best quality but I have ensured there is no BBA in here, this is diatoms only and comes off when I gently rub the leaves)











Top view







P.Errectus on the other side of the tank is doing surprisingly better than the one on right.


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## Sid.scapes (8 Apr 2022)

Other relevant points. The photo period is at 33% on Vivid2. CO2 comes online at 7 AM and the photo period is between 10 AM to 5 PM (7Hours). CO2 goes off an hour before the lights turn off.


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## Geoffrey Rea (8 Apr 2022)

Hey @Siddy 

You use RO but do you use carbon stages to remove chlorine/chloramine?

Did you use dechlorinator with the water change water after the Esha NDX being in tank for 72 hours? 

Do you use a titanium oxidising plate like the Twinstar/Chihiros units following treatment?

Esha labs state dechlorinator and oxidisers are problematic with Esha NDX, hence the questions.


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## Sid.scapes (8 Apr 2022)

Thank you, @Geoffrey Rea 

Yes, it's a 4 stage RODI and I do change the carbon cartridge quite regularly so I don't ever add dechlorinator. 

As for the Chihiros Doctors (Oxydator), I use it in 60p but I disabled it while I was treating with Esha NDX.


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## Geoffrey Rea (8 Apr 2022)

Cool, that puts that potential out of the picture. Also means you haven’t got dechlorinator messing with ammonia testing, if you are testing.

Sticking with the medication bit before moving on (to attempt to rule it out)… do you know what problems you can expect from leaving Esha NDX in for longer than advised? Is there anything specific in the instruction leaflet/data sheet?

Levamisole is likely to remain in the substrate despite water changes and running activated carbon. Just wondering what effect(s) that would have on the bacterial assemblage as it can’t be processed out like it can in a body, via the liver then via urine.



Siddy said:


> As for the Chihiros Doctors (Oxydator), I use it in 60p but I disabled it while I was treating with Esha NDX.



Does this mean it was potentially put back on with some Esha NDX still in the system?


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## Courtneybst (8 Apr 2022)

I can't help but feel that it is linked to the change in temperature coupled with the medication that has impacted the nitrifying bacteria. 

It's almost as if your scape has restarted the cycling process.


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## Geoffrey Rea (8 Apr 2022)

Siddy said:


> Since then I have dosed seachem stability almost on daily basis





Siddy said:


> I can't see any reason why my cycled would crash and remain crashed.





Courtneybst said:


> It's almost as if your scape has restarted the cycling process.



This brings us to the next component… Seachem Stability:






Nigh impossible to work out what’s in a Seachem bottle from their data sheet. They could employ some form of carbon dosing to feed denitrifying bacteria to get that result. Either way, IF you were to use Seachem Stability it would be for a fish only setup, rather than a planted tank.

Because:



Siddy said:


> Upon checking the parameters, I realised that nitrates are almost zero



Unless the testing method is unreliable, impeded by interference of the testing method.


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## Sid.scapes (8 Apr 2022)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> Cool, that puts that potential out of the picture. Also means you haven’t got dechlorinator messing with ammonia testing, if you are testing.
> 
> Sticking with the medication bit before moving on (to attempt to rule it out)… do you know what problems you can expect from leaving Esha NDX in for longer than advised? Is there anything specific in the instruction leaflet/data sheet?
> 
> ...


I should have probably mentioned that I did leave a carbon pad in the filter after treatment for a week to absorb the extra NDX just in case. Interestingly, they do advise vacuuming the substrate after treatment in some situations. As a final option, if nothing else works, I was thinking of replacing the entire substrate system. It's only the background since the foreground in only sand.


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## Sid.scapes (8 Apr 2022)

Courtneybst said:


> I can't help but feel that it is linked to the change in temperature coupled with the medication that has impacted the nitrifying bacteria.
> 
> It's almost as if your scape has restarted the cycling process.



Quite possibly, yes. My biggest concern is that there is leftover medication in the substrate causing plant deformities but difficult to confirm this. I will add the carbon back in filter and vacuum the substrate. If that doesn't help, I will probably just do a soft reset with substrate change.


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## Sid.scapes (8 Apr 2022)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> This brings us to the next component… Seachem Stability:
> 
> 
> View attachment 186227
> ...



This is super useful! I had no idea about this. Guess I need to do more research before adding things randomly in scape from hearsay. Thank you, mate. This helps.


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## Geoffrey Rea (8 Apr 2022)

Siddy said:


> Interestingly, they do advise vacuuming the substrate after treatment in some situations.



Some medications result in flocculation and are able to be removed via activated carbon, floss, other mechanical filtration after a set time. If it’s settled in the substrate, it ain’t going anywhere without intervention.



Siddy said:


> I will probably just do a soft reset with substrate change.



Personally, the substrate would be suspect and would do as you’re suggesting.

If in doubt, get it out.



Siddy said:


> This is super useful! I had no idea about this. Guess I need to do more research before adding things randomly in scape from hearsay. Thank you, mate. This helps.



👍🏽

It’s easily done. There’s so many products out there now and clarification on what they do and how they do it is hard fought.

Keep on trucking @Siddy and if you need a new round of plants for the restart, just PM. Can send you what you want from the 1200 here. 

Looking forward to the revival 😉


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## Sid.scapes (9 Apr 2022)

That's very kind of you, @Geoffrey Rea ! Thank you.


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## dw1305 (12 Apr 2022)

Hi all,


Geoffrey Rea said:


> Nigh impossible to work out what’s in a Seachem bottle from their data sheet. They could employ some form of carbon dosing to feed denitrifying bacteria to get that result. Either way, IF you were to use Seachem Stability it would be for a fish only setup, rather than a planted tank.


Call me <"sceptical">, but I'd be amazed if any of these products have <"any use what so ever in a planted tank">. It is back to the question of the <"ammonia loading of the bioreactor"> it was produced in. If I did feel one would help? I'd use <"Tim Hovanec's product">.


Geoffrey Rea said:


> Unless the testing method is unreliable, impeded by interference of the testing method.


It is a shame there are <"issues with nitrate (NO3-) testing">. I'd guess that at some point some-one will produce a reliable test for fresh water, but until then a certain amount of caution is called for.

cheers Darrel


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## Geoffrey Rea (12 Apr 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Call me <"sceptical">, but I'd be amazed if any of these products have <"any use what so ever in a planted tank">. It is back to the question of the <"ammonia loading of the bioreactor"> it was produced in. If I did feel one would help I'd use <"Tim Hovanec's product">.



Not at all sceptical and you’ll get no argument here. Seen more than a few find themselves in trouble attempting to remedy ‘problems’ using a range of products advertised as solutions.

Aside from managing chlorine/chloramine in tap water, time, good observation and ‘education’ is invariably the only friends you’ll ever need in setting up planted tanks. Even tap water with chlorine used to be aerated until it was gassed off. No one even has time for that anymore. Most folks used rain water to avoid even that hurdle 🤷🏻‍♂️



dw1305 said:


> I'd guess that at some point some-one will produce a reliable test for fresh water, but until then a certain amount of caution is called for.



Duckweed index 😂 

You could rebrand it frogbit index for fresh appeal Darrel.


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## seedoubleyou (12 Apr 2022)

I always found it ironic how we work so hard to emulate nature in our aquariums by doing the unnatural.


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## dw1305 (13 Apr 2022)

Hi all,


> dw1305 said:
> I'd guess that at some point some-one will produce a reliable test for fresh water, but until then a certain amount of caution is called for.





Geoffrey Rea said:


> Duckweed index 😂
> 
> You could rebrand it frogbit index for fresh appeal Darrel.


A re branding, now that is an idea.

The "problems" (purely in commercial terms) with the Duckweed / Frogbit Index are that:

It <"works really well">. So once you have Frogbit in your tank <"your problems go away"> and you forget that they ever existed.
You only have to buy the <"Frogbit once">, so there are no repeat sales.
It performs the <"dual roles of "Nutrient indicator" and "Nutrient reducer">, meaning you miss out on at least one further sale.
I went "_too big, too early_" with the <"Werewolves campaign">, even with <"its undoubted success">. I should have started with "_deterring Pixies_" and then moved up through Poltergeists, Zombies etc.
I was thinking of a fairly limp, and meaningless, new strap-line "_now even greener_", and then sell it with the ripped off <"Leaf Colour Chart">, when it occurred to me that I have recently become aware of a much better idea. ..........da da.....


> All new <"Amazon Frogbit "_*Audrey II*_"> (_Limnobium laevigatum_). Now even better than before.
> Developed with green energy <"*advanced photon torpedo technology**">. *This <"natural and organic biochemical process"> converts solar energy, and naturally occurring antioxidants, into protein.
> Over time "_Audrey II"_ will lose the the benefit of "*advanced photon torpedo technology*" and although it will remain a great product,  we recommend
> Purchasing "_Audrey II_" on a six week cycle, using our advanced payment plan.


With all due modesty, I now feel like Oscar Wilde (not the unfortunate court case bit), but that <"_I have nothing to declare but my genius__"> _and I'm ready to do battle with the <"sellers of Biohome etc">. 

Who knows <"Dragon's Den"> might be an option, "_I want a £100,000 for 25% of the business_"

cheers Darrel


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## Sid.scapes (13 Apr 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Call me <"sceptical">, but I'd be amazed if any of these products have <"any use what so ever in a planted tank">. It is back to the question of the <"ammonia loading of the bioreactor"> it was produced in. If I did feel one would help? I'd use <"Tim Hovanec's product">.
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing this, Darrel! Looks very interesting.


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## Sid.scapes (18 Apr 2022)

Got some time this weekend to remove the old substrate and replace it with fresh tropica soil. I’ve added aquario NPK tabs so that I can dose as lean as possible initially. 

I’ve also made some changes to plants, I’ve replaced S. Repens with Hemianthus Micranthemoides and P. Errectus with Rotala green. (Won’t be missing those insane roots)

I’ll be adding a lot of riccardia and anubias or bright green buces on lower level rocks once the tank is bit more stable.

I’m also trying a new product this time - Seachem advance to give plants a head-start. Will update you folks in a while to see how it works out. 


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## erwin123 (19 Apr 2022)

Siddy said:


> I’m also trying a new product this time - Seachem advance to give plants a head-start. Will update you folks in a while to see how it works out.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



You can buy root hormone powder from your local garden store for a few quid/dollars.... but TL: DR doesn't work.  Tom Barr has tested and written about it.


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## Sid.scapes (19 Apr 2022)

erwin123 said:


> You can buy root hormone powder from your local garden store for a few quid/dollars.... but TL: DR doesn't work.  Tom Barr has tested and written about it.


Interesting. I’ve heard both good and bad reviews of plant hormones. I recently picked up from @Courtneybst and team's IG  live with Dennis Wong (2Hr Aquarist) that he uses them in his farm tank so I thought I would give it a try. Now it's a different question whether Seachem's super diluted (generally speaking) Advance will actually produce any difference but I guess we will find out.


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## Sid.scapes (19 Apr 2022)

erwin123 said:


> Tom Barr has tested and written about it.


Do you happen to have a link for this? I'd love to read Tom Barr's view on this


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## Sid.scapes (19 Apr 2022)

Siddy said:


> Interesting. I’ve heard both good and bad reviews of plant hormones. I recently picked up from @Courtneybst and team's IG  live with Dennis Wong (2Hr Aquarist) that he uses them in his farm tank so I thought I would give it a try. Now it's a different question whether Seachem's super diluted (generally speaking) Advance will actually produce any difference but I guess we will find out.


Dennis Wong did mention that the effects of plant growth hormone on heavily dosed scapes are not as noticeable. According to him, it makes a difference only if you dose very lean.


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## Sid.scapes (20 Apr 2022)

At long last, found the shelf(SIBBHULT Bracket, white, 18x18 cm - IKEA)  for my intaqo controller/doser. Cabinet is looking nice and clean now.




Also added this nifty magnetic tool holder (doesn't need to be drilled) - https://amzn.to/3uYGtWA





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## Garuf (20 Apr 2022)

Tidy cabinets stress me out, the door is to hide the mess. 🤷‍♀️

Scape looks nice, I’d be inclined to add a handful of larger and smaller gravel into your gradient and give it a bit of a mix, it’ll make a big difference to how the scape “reads”.


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## Sid.scapes (20 Apr 2022)

Shel


Garuf said:


> Tidy cabinets stress me out, the door is to hide the mess. 🤷‍♀️
> 
> Scape looks nice, I’d be inclined to add a handful of larger and smaller gravel into your gradient and give it a bit of a mix, it’ll make a big difference to how the scape “reads”.


I couldn't agree more. Yes, I have a lot of work to do in terms of making the foreground nicer. That includes adding smaller rocks with moss and better gravel. I will get on it in the next few weeks.


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## Garuf (20 Apr 2022)

You don’t need better gravel, just a handful of mixed sizes to make it read as less artificial. 

At the end of the day I’ve come to the conclusion we’re all doing it the wrong way around anyway after looking at a few rivers. It seems when water sorts the substrate it tends to be from largest to smallest going towards the shore. Not smallest to largest like wot we do. 

Ahhh moss tying. My most recent experiment has been to pulp up some moss into strands around 5mm in length, get a stone and brush it with gel superglue and then dip it in the moss pulp, wash off excess and then use.
It’s easier and quicker than tying and if you don’t add it too densely you don’t get the bottom layer die off that can happen with tying or glueing large clumps.


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## erwin123 (21 Apr 2022)

Sid.scapes said:


> Do you happen to have a link for this? I'd love to read Tom Barr's view on this











						Plant Hormones
					

I have recently been doing some light research on plant hormones. This research was tipped off by trying to figure out the purpose and content of ADA's Green Gain. From what I can determine, Green Gain is a solution of nutrients and a hormone called Cytokinin, which serves the purpose of of...




					barrreport.com
				












						Growth Relations of Aquatic Macrophytes Volume II - Volume 2, Issue 11 - November 2006
					

Barr Report - Growth Relations of Aquatic Macrophytes Volume IIPlant growth and plant hormones




					barrreport.com
				




he may have written in more detail elsewhere, but this is the result of a quick google search


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## Sid.scapes (21 Apr 2022)

I’ve been experimenting with the light settings for 60p and I’ve tentatively settled for this. 

I’ll be using this ratio at 40% on first week and will gradually increase it to 90% (not sure on final number yet) 

I’m using Chihiros vivid2 at the moment and it’s suspended at approximately 30 cm height 






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## Wookii (21 Apr 2022)

Sid.scapes said:


> I’ve been experimenting with the light settings for 60p and I’ve tentatively settled for this.
> 
> I’ll be using this ratio at 40% on first week and will gradually increase it to 90% (not sure on final number yet)
> 
> ...



Cooking on gas! Hope your CO2's on point!


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## Sid.scapes (21 Apr 2022)

Wookii said:


> Cooking on gas! Hope your CO2's on point!


Hahaha! I know it's pretty nuclear but I am only using this ratio. The actual setting is R, G and B at 40, 30 and 36. Translates to about 38 W and one row of my blue LEDs have gone out so probably even less.


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## Wookii (21 Apr 2022)

Sid.scapes said:


> Hahaha! I know it's pretty nuclear but I am only using this ratio. The actual setting is R, G and B at 40, 30 and 36. Translates to about 38 W and one row of my blue LEDs have gone out so probably even less.



Ah that makes more sense then - ironically almost exactly the same ratio as I use on my Vivid's - red highest, green lowest, blue somewhere in between.


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## Sid.scapes (21 Apr 2022)

Wookii said:


> Ah that makes more sense then - ironically almost exactly the same ratio as I use on my Vivid's - red highest, green lowest, blue somewhere in between.


Interesting! At what height have you suspended your vivid2? I'd love to check out your journal but I am still very new at UKAPS and can't seem to find it!


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## Wookii (21 Apr 2022)

Sid.scapes said:


> Interesting! At what height have you suspended your vivid2? I'd love to check out your journal but I am still very new at UKAPS and can't seem to find it!



Probably about 40cm from the surface, mine was a 400mm deep tank though. My journal is here: Sandy Nook but I closed the tank down when I moved house last week, so all plants and fish are now in holding tanks at the new house.

I had a lot of floating plants too, so I ran the Vivid higher at around 70% (R), 50% (G), 60% (B).


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## erwin123 (21 Apr 2022)

I have double WRGB2 running at 90/70/80  (seems very common to have highest Red, then blue, then green...) which is roughly the same wattage as a single Vivid 2...

Tank is 60x45x45 but substrate is 12cm deep, so effectively 60x45x33cm....
Whatever the light setting I have, I get algae on the aquarium glass anyway, so I might as well crank up the light. Weeds like Rotalas grow so fast under high light, they are probably vacuuming up all the nitrates judging by the amount of stems I have to toss after each trimming ...


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## Sid.scapes (22 Apr 2022)

Updates from this week.

It's been about 5 days since the substrate change. I am doing ~50% water change a day this week and will cut it by half with every passing week.
According to my API Test kit (not very confident about the results!)

Ammonia - .20 to .25 ppm
Nitrates - 5 ppm
Nitrites - 0 ppm
Gh - 6
Kh -0  (I wonder if this will be a problem for Microsorum, my limited research suggests it won't be but happy to hear if you folks have any thoughts)


I am currently dosing 1ml APT complete a day which should add approximately 7.6ppm Potassium (K), 3.6ppm Nitrogen (NO3), 1.4ppm Phosphorus (PO4), 0.1ppm Iron (Fe), 0.8ppm Magnesium (Mg) 
Haven't worked out the math for Seachem Advance but I believe that's adding some extra Phosphorus as well.

I have also just purchased some K2SO4 and depending on how the plants grow, I might add some amount per day in a combination of APT Zero or Complete.


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## Sid.scapes (22 Apr 2022)

I also added some new plants this week from @Horizon Aquatics Aquatics .  A fresh tissue culture pot of Hemianthus Micranthemoides and some good old Rotala Orange Juice. I will probably add some Rotala Blood Red SG as well if I can find some and some more Anubias Nana Petite or Bonzai once the ammonia levels are more reasonable.


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## Sid.scapes (3 May 2022)

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## Sid.scapes (3 May 2022)

Quick update on the scape.

Plants are doing great and growing steadily. I add two new plants in the background this week (Thanks to @Courtneybst !)  - Limnophila Aromatica Mini and the one and only Rotala Blood Red SG (the one from Dennis Wong - 2HR Aquarist's tank). 
As mentioned last week, I was planning on adding anubias in the more shaded part of this scape but I am not tempted to put more microsorum philippine mini. I am off to AG workshop this week so may pick up both the plants and see which one looks best,

Also, I have removed the Chihiros Doctor (Twinstar steriliser alternative) as I was not convinced that it was making any difference in the scape and interestingly I have a little bit of Green Thread Algae popping up here and there so maybe it was working after all? Unfortunately, there is still no clear way to establish that it was the only reason why the algae didn't pop up until now.  However, I have added 5 clithon corona snails in the scape (again from @Courtneybst ) so hopefully, they will keep it in check.

As for diatom situation, it's not as bad as it was before but it's still present on hardscape and the plants which are in the direct path of flow which is making me wonder if I should reduce the flow. If there is no change in this situation, I will most likely change to the aquario circular outlet and see if it helps.


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## Sid.scapes (9 May 2022)

Bolbitis difformis from @LondonAquascaper and anubias nana bonzai on the hardscape. I haven't glued them yet because I am still bit iffy about their their final positions in the scape but loving it so far. Since this area is really shaded, I think Anubias will work out better than most plants I had in mind.



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## Sid.scapes (9 May 2022)

Rotala blood red SG slowly getting that beautiful red colouration. Rotala orange juice on the left for comparison

Interestingly, blood red SG care get intense red colouration even without nitrate limitations. I only have a stem or two but my plan is to have 1/3 of the background covered by these


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## Sid.scapes (11 May 2022)

I’ve not been using my DSLRto take photos lately but picked it up today for a change. Should have turned off the co2 to take a picture but was feeling lazy so here it is.

For some reason, it’s pretty much impossible to take nice bright photo of this scape. May be it’s time to retire the 18-55 stock lens and get a better prime lens instead


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## LFNfan (11 May 2022)

Sid.scapes said:


> For some reason, it’s pretty much impossible to take nice bright photo of this scape. May be it’s time to retire the 18-55 stock lens and get a better prime lens instead



You have quite a wide light range from front to back - hard to expose both evenly without a bit of 'snooted' off-camera fill flash for the foreground.  Two flashes would be ideal, one on each side for even lighting.  You'd have to work out the angles to avoid reflections, but it's do-able.   You could go the other way as well and go for a very diffuse off-camera light to brighten up the foreground.  Or you could go the HDR route and bracket a couple of exposures that expose the foreground and the background correctly and merge them - some DSLRs have that capability built-in.  Most smartphones do (!).  I suspect your kit 18-55 is doing its job just fine, but a new prime lens couldn't harm I'm sure 


Love your scape and  setup.  I also had issues with diatoms and 'hairy diatoms' in the flow-iest area of my tank.  S Repens.  In the end I ended up taking most of the plant out   Maybe that was my newbie solution rather than the right approach!  Do you think reducing the flow is the answer?  I have a low-tech tank.


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## Sid.scapes (12 May 2022)

> You have quite a wide light range from front to back - hard to expose both evenly without a bit of 'snooted' off-camera fill flash for the foreground. Two flashes would be ideal, one on each side for even lighting. You'd have to work out the angles to avoid reflections, but it's do-able. You could go the other way as well and go for a very diffuse off-camera light to brighten up the foreground. Or you could go the HDR route and bracket a couple of exposures that expose the foreground and the background correctly and merge them - some DSLRs have that capability built-in. Most smartphones do (!). I suspect your kit 18-55 is doing its job just fine, but a new prime lens couldn't harm I'm sure



All good ideas! I admit, I didn't think about the HDR option but I did use some Exposure compensation (+2 Points). Unfortunately, I don't have the external flash or the skills to use them but I definitely want to explore that and external lighting at some point. 


> I also had issues with diatoms and 'hairy diatoms' in the flow-iest area of my tank. S Repens. In the end I ended up taking most of the plant out  Maybe that was my newbie solution rather than the right approach! Do you think reducing the flow is the answer? I have a low-tech tank.



I have never had a low-tech so not completely sure if it's relevant but in my limited experience, I've noticed that too much flow almost always causes trouble - From BBA to diatoms everything seems to be flourishing in the high flow area. Even in my most stable tanks, I've noticed the same situation. I will be installing Aquario Circular inlet on this scape and will report back if it helps.  
Meanwhile, definitely check this with @CooKieS . I had an impossible Diatom outbreak in my 45p and his advice saved the scape (and my sanity!)


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## LFNfan (12 May 2022)

V interesting re. diatoms and flow.  I had read in a few places that getting a filter that does 10x tank capacity per hour was desirable.  So that's what I spec'd my filter for.  But maybe there's a balance to be achieved rather than an absolute flow rate?

Re. photography,  you could have a look at Strobist.blogspot.com - it's an amazing off-camera lighting resource if you are interested.  Perhaps a bit 'OTT' though.  The other other option is tinkering in software to brighten up the darker zone.  Anyway - off topic!


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## CooKieS (13 May 2022)

Sid.scapes said:


> All good ideas! I admit, I didn't think about the HDR option but I did use some Exposure compensation (+2 Points). Unfortunately, I don't have the external flash or the skills to use them but I definitely want to explore that and external lighting at some point.
> 
> 
> I have never had a low-tech so not completely sure if it's relevant but in my limited experience, I've noticed that too much flow almost always causes trouble - From BBA to diatoms everything seems to be flourishing in the high flow area. Even in my most stable tanks, I've noticed the same situation. I will be installing Aquario Circular inlet on this scape and will report back if it helps.
> Meanwhile, definitely check this with @CooKieS . I had an impossible Diatom outbreak in my 45p and his advice saved the scape (and my sanity!)



Hello there,

I had the worst issues in the past with high flow on plants and hard scape, and I still have today,  just try to direct an outflow on some hard scape and you’ll be surprised how many algae gets there, red algae especially (like bba and staghorn) seems to love it.

I think the whole key is to have huge filter media capacity but without storm in the tank, to do that just observe how Ada does it: one superjet es 600 for an 90p tank, coupled with lily pipe outlet.

I’m actually running the neo pipes too but I arranged the outflow to make sure it breaks on the glass, to avoid any mess in the tank.

Interesting fact: I NEVER get any diatoms/bba/staghorn in my low flow/low tech or even no filter setup. 
But I get green algae or fuzz.

So yeah, better find the balance and stop believing you need an oase 850 for an 60p sized tank. ✌️😁

Btw, nice evolution @Sid.scapes , glad to see this tank back in shape!


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## plantnoobdude (13 May 2022)

CooKieS said:


> I had the worst issues in the past with high flow on plants and hard scape, and I still have today, just try to direct an outflow on some hard scape and you’ll be surprised how many algae gets there, red algae especially (like bba and staghorn) seems to love it.


I'm guessing its a combination of sugars/organics leaching from wood and high oxygen from filter which allows algae to flourish.


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## Wookii (13 May 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> I'm guessing its a combination of sugars/organics leaching from wood and high oxygen from filter which allows algae to flourish.



I’ve found the opposite; that high levels of dissolved oxygen are crucial to preventing algae getting a hold.


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## DeepMetropolis (14 May 2022)

Wookii said:


> I’ve found the opposite; that high levels of dissolved oxygen are crucial to preventing algae getting a hold.


Yes that was what I understood also. I'm now trying to get alot of oxigen in my tank. Just not try to degass all the co2.


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## Sid.scapes (15 May 2022)

Switched out the outlet to Aquario circular ones to reduce the flow and that seems to have made a dent on diatoms (For now). I am also using some APT fix to spot dose the most affected areas.


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## shangman (16 May 2022)

Getting better and better Sid!!


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## Garuf (16 May 2022)

Just to clarify, what exactly is the problem, lingering diatoms?


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## Sid.scapes (16 May 2022)

Garuf said:


> Just to clarify, what exactly is the problem, lingering diatoms?


Yep. Especially where the flow is highest. If you notice the lower part of ludwigia, they are all covered under the diatoms. I also have some issues with my fern as well but I think that's because the water is too soft for them (Kh 0, Gh 6).
I have had Trident in my previous tank and it used to grow insanely huge in no time. I wonder if it's because that tank was run on SaltyShrimps GH/KH+ instead of Gh+ that I use currently.
Sorry for the ramblings!


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## Garuf (16 May 2022)

Java ferns come from karst run off so need a good hardness to grow best. They like high flow and higher levels of po4 in my experience. 

In regards to diatoms, have you used h2o2 in the tank? Also have you checked that the wood isn’t soft? I’ve had persistent diatoms before and the wood id used was mushy, once removed the diatoms went away. 

Plant density helps, if I were in your position I’d throw in a load of stems floating for a few weeks to get things a touch more stable.


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## Sid.scapes (16 May 2022)

Garuf said:


> Java ferns come from karst run off so need a good hardness to grow best. They like high flow and higher levels of po4 in my experience.
> 
> In regards to diatoms, have you used h2o2 in the tank? Also have you checked that the wood isn’t soft? I’ve had persistent diatoms before and the wood id used was mushy, once removed the diatoms went away.
> 
> Plant density helps, if I were in your position I’d throw in a load of stems floating for a few weeks to get things a touch more stable.


I know it's difficult to diagnose the plant deficiencies but looking at some leaves, it did feel like the lack of PO4 so I will definitely check that out.

And the wood isn't soft but I am sure it's leeching all sorts of  funky stuff in the scape. Unfortunately, I can't get it out now but from now on, I am strictly sticking with Riverwood.


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## DaveP (16 May 2022)

Looks great!


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## Hanuman (16 May 2022)

No sucker fish in there like Ottos or Garras? They would have taken care of all that diatom and fluffy stuff.


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## Sid.scapes (16 May 2022)

Hanuman said:


> No sucker fish in there like Ottos or Garras? They would have taken care of all that diatom and fluffy stuff.


There a few amanos and crystals in here along with some nerite and horned nerite snails. I will be adding some ottos in a week or two. 
And agreed, they should be able to take care of it but I want to fi the root cause as well.


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## Sid.scapes (16 May 2022)

DaveP said:


> Looks great!


Thank you!


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## Hanuman (16 May 2022)

Sid.scapes said:


> There a few amanos and crystals in here along with some nerite and horned nerite snails. I will be adding some ottos in a week or two.
> And agreed, they should be able to take care of it but I want to fi the root cause as well.


Definitely, adding fish to take care of an algae problem is not a solution.


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## Garuf (16 May 2022)

Sid.scapes said:


> I know it's difficult to diagnose the plant deficiencies but looking at some leaves, it did feel like the lack of PO4 so I will definitely check that out.
> 
> And the wood isn't soft but I am sure it's leeching all sorts of  funky stuff in the scape. Unfortunately, I can't get it out now but from now on, I am strictly sticking with Riverwood.


I don’t think that’s necessary, a lot of leaching can be fixed by pre-soaking. Also the volume of the wood to the volume of tank will mean even variable woods like spider etc when in the same ratio would leach sugars just as much. 

I wouldn’t be so stressed, diatoms are natural in some setups and are an easier one to fix once the filter/tank are mature. 

If you drift onto hobby pages from the opposite side of the world many of the Asian scapers would think nothing of adding 1amano per 2litre in start up to deal with diatoms!


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## Hufsa (16 May 2022)

Garuf said:


> 1amano per 2litre in start up to deal with diatoms!


Would you like some water to go with that amano soup


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## Garuf (16 May 2022)

Haps haps haps. 
It’s a sledgehammer to crack a nut solution.  But can’t fault that it works as it is a short term thing.  Long term them amanos would go predatory and eat anything you put near um.


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## erwin123 (17 May 2022)

Garuf said:


> I don’t think that’s necessary, a lot of leaching can be fixed by pre-soaking. Also the volume of the wood to the volume of tank will mean even variable woods like spider etc when in the same ratio would leach sugars just as much.
> 
> I wouldn’t be so stressed, diatoms are natural in some setups and are an easier one to fix once the filter/tank are mature.
> 
> If you drift onto hobby pages from the opposite side of the world many of the Asian scapers would think nothing of adding 1amano per 2litre in start up to deal with diatoms!








Amanos are actually not that popular because they are rather expensive, about a $1.20-$1.50 each and its well known they are bad tempered, bully smaller shrimp,  steal fish food  and run away with shrimp wafers instead of eating algae, and destroy certain plants  😅
Instead, Its cheaper to just drop in a bag of Malayan shrimp (price as shown on the bag) and let them hoover up everything.


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## Hanuman (17 May 2022)

erwin123 said:


> Amanos are actually not that popular because they are rather expensive, about a $1.20-$1.50 each and its well known they are bad tempered, bully smaller shrimp,  steal fish food  and run away with shrimp wafers instead of eating algae, and destroy certain plants  😅


I don't know in Singapore  but in Thailand, they are very popular. Shops are persistently out of stock. Here they sell for an even higher price: ~ 2USD a piece, probably due to demand. These shrimps can't easily be bred so they only come from the wild. [Side note, at some point in time I was actually setting things up to breed them but eventually scraped the idea although I had purchased nearly everything I needed, including a refractometer 😓].

For the rest, I have never experienced caridina multidentata being bully or bad tempered. They do indeed like to run away once they get their hands, so to speak, on the stash of food, but that's about it. There is always lots left for other small shrimps. Them being bigger than most tank shrimps, automatically gives them priority. Never have I seen an amano shrimp eat healthy plants though. In my experience, the plant would need to be in poor health or melting for the amano to start feeding off of it. 

If I really only want to feed the fish I feed live food like grindal worms. Shrimps don't seem interested in those.


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## Garuf (17 May 2022)

Amanos are around £8 for larger adults in this part of the world. Only the very tiny ones are around a £1-2.  

I’ve had them go predatory in the past but knowing it’s a lack of protein so I needed supplementary food fixed it.


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## erwin123 (17 May 2022)

Our  friends from Green Effect discovered that Amanos like AR. And even Xiaozhuang Wong commented.... 
there are a few threads about Amanos in this forum as well.
My experience is that Amanos do not naturally attack plants or shrimp, the way that an Africa Cichlid seems genetically programmed to do so, but one fine day, one of them might just decide to do so.... and after they start, they won't stop.


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## Hanuman (17 May 2022)

erwin123 said:


> Our  friends from Green Effect discovered that Amanos like AR. And even Xiaozhuang Wong commented....


I have had Alternanthera reineckii and never have the amano touched it. In fact never have I seen any amano eat healthy plants even the most delicate ones I have.
Maybe those having issues with their shrimps "attacking" their plants is because they feed their animals once every 3 moon? 😉


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## Sid.scapes (17 May 2022)

erwin123 said:


> View attachment 188712
> View attachment 188710
> 
> Our  friends from Green Effect discovered that Amanos like AR. And even Xiaozhuang Wong commented....
> ...


Been there! They single handily destroyed my AR mini.  And these were not the damaged or weak plants, these were fully healthy plants from my other tank and had no algae or any other issues whatsoever.


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## Sid.scapes (17 May 2022)

Hanuman said:


> I have had Alternanthera reineckii and never have the amano touched it. In fact never have I seen any amano eat healthy plants even the most delicate ones I have.
> Maybe those having issues with their shrimps "attacking" their plants is because they feed their animals once every 3 moon? 😉


This was probably the case with me, I naturally assumed that the algae in the scape should be enough for them and never fed them anything. Perhaps that was the mistake.


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## Hanuman (17 May 2022)

Caridina multidentata are omnivors. Like us humans. This seems to me like the same issue with some sucker fish sp. where people think they will just do with biofilm and algae. That couldn't be further from the truth.

Seems we are getting to the bottom of this. This is the second instance (perhaps 3rd with Dennis et al.) where the shrimps are not properly fed with protein source food hence them becoming voracious. If you read closely those screenshots from @erwin123 and specially the last comment from Green Effect, he says that "they added the yamato" in order to basically prove how trash and voracious these shrimps are. To me that sounds like a little skewed experiment where they bought some shrimps from a retailer and added them to the tank or they didn't fed those shrimps enough or properly where they were before. I know for a fact some people here in Thailand that never feed their fish or shrimp expecting them to survive on water, dead leaves and algae.... sigh.

I mean, go without eating or eating poorly for some period of time and you'll find anything palatable.


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## Hufsa (17 May 2022)

I can confirm that amano shrimp turning to eat plants is much less common in fishkeeping circles. I think "feeding like an aquascaper" is a real factor when it comes to their tendency to go for the salad


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## Sid.scapes (20 May 2022)

New fishes in the 60p! I’m not a fish-person but these have certainly bowled me over. And unlike what I had imagined, these aren’t as shy either. 


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## seedoubleyou (20 May 2022)

Sid.scapes said:


> New fishes in the 60p! I’m not a fish-person but these have certainly bowled me over. And unlike what I had imagined, these aren’t as shy either.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My absolute favourite fish (aside from puffers). You can’t go wrong with a shoal of these.


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## Sid.scapes (13 Jun 2022)




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## Sid.scapes (13 Jun 2022)

I’ve dropped a ball on providing the updates on this thread but I’ll do it soon. Despite a few algae issues, the plants are doing great.


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## Sid.scapes (14 Jun 2022)

Brownie 2011 is doing really well in 45p. This was initially placed in 60p but I shifted it in other tank due to constant algae issues in main scape. I’ll probably shift half of this back again in 60p this month


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## Sid.scapes (16 Jun 2022)

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## Sid.scapes (16 Jun 2022)

So here's the latest update on the scape.

The stem plants are doing really well including the Ludwiga super red which has usually been quite finicky for me. Before going for a vacation, I shuffled their location with rotala blood red SG because I want to create a dense canopy near pearl weed bush.
One thing that I have noticed about rotala blood-red SG is how upright it grows! and I absolutely love it. It also retains deep red hues even when your nitrates are significantly higher (mine are circa 10ppm).
As for ferns, they are doing well too ever since I started dosing a little bit more SaltyShrimps Gh+ but unfortunately, they have got some Staghorn algae on them.  I suspect that's because of the excess organic waste on the scape. I have a feeling that I have overstocked this scape. I am thinking about increasing the water change frequency to twice a week 50% instead of once a week because there is always a lot of junk in the foreground. It's also the place where I have some BGA in the scape.
But other than this, the scape is overall doing really well.


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## Sid.scapes (19 Jun 2022)

The rotala blood red SG doing it’s thing! I think this plant has huge potential to replace H’RA in the hobby. It takes pretty much no efforts whatsoever to turn this into really stunning and deep red.

This was originally from Dennis Wong (@2HrAquarist)’s farm tank and I was fortunate to receive a few stems from my friends [mention]Courtneybst [/mention] and Jordan Stirrat


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## J-Bonham (21 Jun 2022)

Great journal buddy

 The colours and textures one the last photo are awesome. 

I found it to be a fine balance with that shape scape and stems in the back... need to keep the stems low enough not to cut the circulation off round the back, no easy task with the Rotalas, trim! trim! trim!


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## Sid.scapes (7 Aug 2022)

And here’s my 60p, still going strong despite missed water changes, co2 accidents and heatwaves. 


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## cyilmaz (6 Nov 2022)

Hello @Sid.scapes 
Are you happy with the Aquario Neo Soil. I want to use it but i cannot find much information.


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## aaron.c (25 Nov 2022)

Wow! This is a stunning tank @Sid.scapes 

Are you still running the Biomaster 350 in it? I am about to set up my 60p and ordered the 250. Think I might need to cancel and upgrade to the 350

Thanks
Aaron


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## Jonstonia (25 Nov 2022)

aaron.c said:


> Wow! This is a stunning tank @Sid.scapes
> 
> Are you still running the Biomaster 350 in it? I am about to set up my 60p and ordered the 250. Think I might need to cancel and upgrade to the 350
> 
> ...



I got a 250 with my 90p so a bigger tank but I find it underpowered. If I had a 60p I would go for the 350. I’m thinking of upgrading to the 600 for mine. 


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## Courtneybst (25 Nov 2022)

aaron.c said:


> Think I might need to cancel and upgrade to the 350





Jonstonia said:


> If I had a 60p I would go for the 350. I’m thinking of upgrading to the 600 for mine.



I also have a 60P with a Biomaster 350 running and it's just the right size and flow.


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## aaron.c (25 Nov 2022)

Thank you @Courtneybst  and @Jonstonia - I have cancelled the 250 order and got for Biomaster 350


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## Qwedfg (5 Dec 2022)

How are you liking the neo pipes vs the eheim surface skimmer?  I am thinking about getting the neo pipes with the outflow surface skimmer as shrimp keep getting in my eheim and its a bit ugly but I've heard mixed reviews on them.


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