# Chesnut roots..



## DeepMetropolis (27 Jun 2020)

I had the idea of starting a small pond in my graden.. But the place I would lik to put it is about 2, 3 meters away from a sweet chesnut.. Does this hurt the tree or will the roots grow and wreck the pond..

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## Simon Cole (27 Jun 2020)

They are comparatively a very-fast growing tree. They grow so fast that they require special management practices in woodland and are typically grown as a stand alone species (not inter-planted). You are very close indeed, and would be directly upon roots. Any roots you damage have an increasing risk of causing disease in the tree, and I have seen many dead or dying ones topple over, although I do not know whether this was due to poor root growth; they did seem to have a very high rate of death in non-managed plantations anyway. Root pruning (and associated top pruning) would be difficult due to the rate of growth causing roots to push into the pond, I suspect. You would need to design a pond that could distort and withstand root pressure and lateral forces (land movement) as the roots push the soil outwards.


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## DeepMetropolis (27 Jun 2020)

Wow I didn't know about all that.. The thing is it just was here when I bought the house in fact it are actually three tree's together.. It gives alot of fruits every year.. I don't really eat them but my wife and kids loves them.. I just like the tree.. So if rosking damaging I have to think of an other place for the pond.. 




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## martin-green (28 Jun 2020)

There is another consideration, if your pond was under a tree, when its autumn where will all the leaves go? 😟  Leaves if left in a pond will rot and decay depriving the water of oxygen, so killing the pond, yes you can fish them out, or put a net over it, but it's easier to not put it near a tree in the first place.
Also as suggested tree roots can be a problem, it's not uncommon for plant and tree roots to puncture liners, sadly you can't design a pond that can distort to allow for roots, again the best option is to not build a pond anywhere near trees.😊


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## Simon Cole (28 Jun 2020)

martin-green said:


> you can't design a pond that can distort to allow for roots



I could. Just drop me a PM if you decide to do this and I'll draw up a spec. If fabrics can stop bullets, you can stop a tree root.
Leaves do not kill our pond (filled every year with leaves), nor the lakes that I fish. It comes down to our surface area volume ratio, detritivores and macrophages.


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## martin-green (28 Jun 2020)

I do not agree entirely.

Kevlar does stop bullets from penetrating it,  tree roots are not bullets, tree roots will continue to grow and force anything out of its way without the need to penetrate it.  A pond would end up having "lumps and bumps" where tree roots are pushing kevlar out of the way.😧  Yes, it will not happen "overnight" but it will happen. If lining ponds with kevlar first (Before the pond liner) to stop tree roots works, why has it not been done. (Rhetorical question)

Anything decaying in a pond will result in less oxygen in the water, I am not saying if just one leaf gets into a pond it will kill the pond, I am saying that if they are not removed they will eventually remove all oxygen, and in turn it will become a stagnant pool.  
The OP had no idea about ponds and leaves, so I made the afore mentioned point,  yes you are correct it depends on ratio of surface area to  pond volume, but that is being pedantic, all the OP needs to know is that too many dead leaves in a pond is not a good idea.


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## Simon Cole (29 Jun 2020)

The point is to allow the membrane to deform. Tension must be resolved into a horizontal component so that shear forces (the normal stresses of water and soil movement, and the additional pressure force of tree roots) are dissipated along the mobilised distance (direction of soil movement). The allowable geo-membrane stress and it's thickness are then calculated in accordance with planar angles acting upon all of these forces. This can then be approximated over time. This gives an integer (point in time) at which the membrane is either removed and roots pruned back, or it is reshaped to allow for further deformation. Typically this could be once every 5 years. I think you are right that the forces could be a bit difficult to manage due to the rampant growth of these trees, but sometimes you can crate deformation spaces to encourage and manage these forces, a buckle zone if you will. It's quite easy to buy a few more years this way (10 years perhaps). You often see expanded clay pebbles used in civil engineering of watercourse structures - not so much for their permeability, but because they buffer lateral forces really well if there is land movement. There are some very suitable membranes around as well. Kevlar was just an illustration. They just need to be resistant to penetration when it is no longer possible to deform along the settlement angle mobilising the geomembrane tension. You are quite right Martin, I agree with you. Perhaps best to move the pond, if in doubt. I also agree about the leaves. It's less than ideal.


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## DeepMetropolis (29 Jun 2020)

martin-green said:


> The OP had no idea about ponds and leaves, so I made the afore mentioned point,


Eh I had no idea about the tree growing so fast and pruning hurt it so badly. But i knew about leaves falling down and causing troubles.. I use the dried leaves in one of my tanks together with other leave types.. 
But thanks to mention anyway.. I don't know alot about ponds but I guess that lot of tank rules apply to pond rules too.. 



Simon Cole said:


> Perhaps best to move the pond,


Jup trying to figure out where I want it as the best place in the garden is a plase where I wnat to build a cabin in the future.. 

It just going to be a small pond.. Guess it is possible to keep the pond no filter Walstad  style? Maby with some pump to keep the water circulating ?


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## mort (29 Jun 2020)

How big do you want the pond to be? If it's not that big you could build it above ground which would mean less of an issue with the tree roots. Ideally a corner under a tree isn't the ideal place for a pond but I have a wildlife/vegetable filter pond that surrounds a silver birch (shallow rooted species that disguards alot of debris during the year). This is only about 2 foot deep at most which means there isn't much pressure on the liner from any growing roots. This part of the pond is a fraction of the total ponds volume but I've not had any problems with it at all and just scoop the leaves out as they fall. Not an ideal solution but i like the tree to much to remove it and this workaround has kept my pond happy enough plus I can redo it easily if I ever need to.


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## DeepMetropolis (29 Jun 2020)

I guess around 2x2m or 2x3m something like that.. 50/60 cm's of depth..   Building it a bit higher sounds like asn option also.. Just want it to be a natural looking pond nothing fancy..


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## mort (29 Jun 2020)

If its only going to be a couple of feet deep then you may get away with building it in that spot on top of the bricks you have there, which will offer good protection from the roots. It's not the most ideal spot unless it's a reasonably sunny corner and you do need to consider how much of the root area you will be covering up. 
If this was my only spot and I really had to have a pond there I would probably try a large tub pond for a year to see how it does. If that didn't do well then I wouldn't go to the extent of building a proper pond there. Summer tubbing is quite popular so you may be able to find some great examples. This is a fun thread https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/summer-tubbing.61233/


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## Simon Cole (29 Jun 2020)

I keep one pond in complete shade, and never has a filter or water flow. I guess it all depends upon livestock and ecosystem design. I far prefer summer tubbing, but, I was about to start on an above ground pond before the pandemic. All options have got their merits. I know what it is like committing to a plan, but I would start with buildings (cabin), and position ponds as drainage. Have you thought about a windmill for your cabin - it could power the water movement.


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## frederick thompson (3 Jul 2020)

When I built my pond. I took the tree away.
For a new summer house. And pond.
If it was me. In keeping the tree. I would concrete a base in. And use brickwork around the sides. Backfill the blocks.
And put a liner in that. And go from there.
A bit more expensive. But piece of mind.
I agree with martin green on roots.
My first in ground pond lifted because of tree roots.
That's why on my second build the tree had to go. Broke my heart. Getting rid. But my pond and fish came first.
Fred

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## zozo (3 Jul 2020)

The tree in the picture still is a baby  I have the exact same issue, my neighbour has a sweet chestnut in his garden about 3 metres away from mine. But this one is about 8 to 10 metres high and the trees canopy covers a great deal of my lawn.

I was planning a pond too, but still in doubt if I should. The Sweet Chestnut is an extremely dirty tree, shedding 3 times a year and a lot. In the early summer it sheds the blossoms and pollen, late summer it will shed the nuts and shells and in the fall it will shed its leaves. I'm not sure about yours, but mine is according an expert an American Sweet Chestnut and he told me the fallen leaves of this tree are extremely touch and leathery texture that takes a very long time to decay. And he was right, I'm cleaning it up every year again, if I don't it will suffocate my entire garden with a thick blanket of leaves that about never decay.

Anyway, this will all blow in and pile up in and pollute your pond if you don't clean that out on a daily basis. A skimmer will be pre to have.

I did put a net over my lawn to shield it from all this falling debris and test it how that goes. I'm 3 days t late to take a picture to show the mess it makes because the blossoms have fallen by now and i cleaned it up. But still, a lot falls through the net on the lawn. I'm still not sure if I should make the pond if I do it will be a lot of maintenance to keep it clean.. That I know...

I'm talking about this monster already haunting me the past 20 years.




These are the blossoms. 




I guess for now yours is still a baby, but this is what to expect on the long run...

I'm a tree lover and don't advocate taking down trees and not going to bother my neighbour with that. I rather clean up after it.. But if this tree was on my ground i probably would be very tempted to make firewood out of it.


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## DeepMetropolis (3 Jul 2020)

mort said:


> If its only going to be a couple of feet deep then you may get away with building it in that spot on top of the bricks you have there, which will offer good protection from the roots.


That tiles that are there has to go the previous owners almost filled the whole garden with bricks and tiles three totally different types..  



Simon Cole said:


> I know what it is like committing to a plan, but I would start with buildings (cabin),



Yes if I had the fundings for it I would have done that but the rest of house renovation stand in the way..



frederick thompson said:


> That's why on my second build the tree had to go. Broke my heart. Getting rid. But my pond and fish came first.



I understand I don't want to remove the tree but I'm not really in a need of a pond just want to like to have more space to experiment with swamp plants and with some natural critters that com with it 



zozo said:


> I was planning a pond too, but still in doubt if I should. The Sweet Chestnut is an extremely dirty tree, shedding 3 times a year and a lot. In the early summer it sheds the blossoms and pollen, late summer it will shed the nuts and shells and in the fall it will shed its leaves. I'm not sure about yours, but mine is according an expert an American Sweet Chestnut and he told me the fallen leaves of this tree are extremely touch and leathery texture that takes a very long time to decay. And he was right, I'm cleaning it up every year again, if I don't it will suffocate my entire garden with a thick blanket of leaves that about never decay.



Thats a big three 

Mine does that too the kids like to walk bare feet trough the garden so once in a while i have to take out a lot of needles from the shells. The thick leaves are good for my betta tank 
Don't really know what kind mine is actually didn't know there are more kinds of sweet chessnut but as almost any other three its no wonder there are.. I guess that it would be alot of work and the hedge sheds leaves too only not so much at once. 


Anyhow I can place it like 6 to 8 meters away from the tree and make it a bit smaller that doesn't solve the leaf problem but i guess it must solve the root problem a bit more.. I read that they are deep rooters  more instead of wide.. Probably there is still a change that it grows into the pond but with using the tiles as barrier on one side it will hold for a while..


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## zozo (3 Jul 2020)

Beware of the nuts and shells, if it falls in the pond it sinks to the bottom rather fast.

I covered my lawn with a net, not only as a test if i could build a pond bellow it. It's also for protecting myself. In the fall the nuts come down like little spiked bombs. And they come pretty fast and hard from 8 metres height.  And since I'm getting rather bold lately it's dangerous to walk my garden without a hat or a helmet if the net wasn't there.

As long as the nutshells are rather fresh they are easier to clean up. But an old one that is dry, for these you really have to watch out. They sting through gloves and can leave splinters in your fingers or toes if you go barefoot.

Such a small tree i guess is manageable, but that monster above my garden is completely out of proportion. Too much and walking my lawn barefooted is like walking a minefield.


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## mort (3 Jul 2020)

If the trees are on your land and already a manageable height, you can simple prune the main leader (stopping apical dominance) to keep it more "bonsai" (this encourages them to bush out rather than head for the sky). That would mean your new location won't be as affected by the tree. 
In my garden I have a few different trees and that includes some quite thuggish eucalyptus that I pleach when they need it at the height I want.


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## DeepMetropolis (4 Jul 2020)

Here is what the blossoms look like don't know which kind it is I see multiple ones on the internet and apparently they grow in different heights..

I have three of them to gather as jou can see in the other picture.. Don't know if it can hurt on the under side of the trunk they have grown on to each other..

Pruning them to keep it lower does sounds like an good idea they are around 6/7m in height now I think this is about the height it would like to have it should I prune the tops now or wait a little longer and prune it back when it is like a meter longer.. If the tree gets about a meter or 8 in the future it would be fine.. 





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## mort (4 Jul 2020)

I think these should be pruned when they are dormant. It would be a shame to remove any potential fruits anyway. You can cut them back to where ever you like really.


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