# Probably Crazy Long Distance CO2 Idea



## Mike_81 (24 Feb 2013)

Hi Guys,

I'm pretty new to planted aquariums as you'll see from my post in the Journals section here.

Here's the situation. Please tell me if I'm barking up the wrong tree before I go too far down this road.

I'd like to begin using pressurised CO2 as I've been labouring along with a DIY Yeast set up which is woefully inconsistent. I was warned about this but thought I'd give it a try anyway. 

Unfortunately I don't really have room for an FE near my tank as the cupboard underneath it has limited space.

(See pic)






However, I do have plenty of space in a small storage shed which is next to the room the tank is in.





My 'crazy' idea is to place a decent sized CO2 cannister in the shed and run a length of CO2 grade pipe from it to the bubble counter and diffuser at the tank end.

I managed to take a poor panoramic picture of the room and have cleverly edited it in Paint to show a very basic route the pipe would take (there are already holes for the whole route).





Would there be enough pressure in the CO2 canister for the gas to reach the tank over that sort of distance?

Does this have any chance of working or should I just look into small i.e. expensive setups which will fit in the under tank cupboard?

Any pointers would be great!


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## Aron_Dip (24 Feb 2013)

I'm no expert but I'd say you won't have the pressure to run over that distance.. But I could be wrong


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## wazuck (25 Feb 2013)

I'd say it would work but there would be a delay before the gas comes out of the diffuser. Much like we get anyway but for a longer period of time. Im sure someone must have tried this and can run in with an experienced answer.


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## Palm Tree (25 Feb 2013)

I don't think there would be any problem at all with that, you could then even go 6kg + in size for the canister.


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## Vanish (25 Feb 2013)

I use co2 to carbonate beer and have used relatively long lengths. I can't see what your suggesting being a problem, just give a blast of co2 at a higher pressure to purge the air from the tubing, otherwise it may take a while for the co2 to arrive at your aquarium.


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## GHNelson (25 Feb 2013)

Hi
As a few have said....cant see why it wont work.
Use 2 decent non-return valves at each end of the long run of Co2 tubing...this will keep the working pressure up.
Then you wouldn't have to wait that long for the Co2 to be dosed into the aquarium.
Cheers
hoggie


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## tim (25 Feb 2013)

I think I read a thread where someone tried this and they found you need to have needle valve and solenoid inline as close to the tank as possible to stop fluctuating bubble counts ill try and find it, nice solution to house a big canister


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## Ady34 (25 Feb 2013)

tim said:


> I think I read a thread where someone tried this and they found you need to have needle valve and solenoid inline as close to the tank as possible to stop fluctuating bubble counts ill try and find it, nice solution to house a big canister


I remember that thread, the needle  valve and bubble counter were eventually placed near to the tank to easily see adjustments I think, if they were at the other end then you'd be twoing and froing from the tank to the outhouse to see what was going on in the tank  I also seem to remember that this was not a great solution and would waste a lot of co2 through losses within the lines.....but not 100% sure about that so don't take my word for it.

Mike....Can you not just cut out your shelf within the cabinet like you did for your filter? I reckon say a 2kg co2 cylinder will fit, ill measure the height of mine when I get home and see how tall it is and let you know. Looks like you could have about 45cm or a bit more total height available?

Cheerio
Ady


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## Iain Sutherland (25 Feb 2013)

No reason it won't work but I'd suggest buying decent phneumatic pressure fittings as tracking down a leak would be a nightmare... I'll link a site when home if you want to go that route...


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## Mike_81 (25 Feb 2013)

Thanks for the input guys, I think this one might have some mileage then. I like the idea of as big a cylinder as I can get away with. I haven't got a big aquarium so it should last yonks.



Ady34 said:


> Mike....Can you not just cut out your shelf within the cabinet like you did for your filter? I reckon say a 2kg co2 cylinder will fit, ill measure the height of mine when I get home and see how tall it is and let you know. Looks like you could have about 45cm or a bit more total height available?


 
Ady you're right, I think the total height of the cabinet is about 48cm so in theory I could cut another section out of the shelf. I'd just assumed that a 2kg cylinder plus the regulator and other gubbins on top would be too big to fit. If you let me know what the total height of your set up is that would be really useful.



Iain Sutherland said:


> I'll link a site when home if you want to go that route...


 
Iain, yes please!

Cheers,


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## ian_m (25 Feb 2013)

Someone somewhere here on UKaps placed a fire extinguisher & regulator and solenoid on one side of his lounge, ran the CO2 tubing along the skirting board to the tank on the other side of the lounge no problem. Need to locate a needle valve, one way valve and bubble counter as close to the tank as possible as its this section beyond the needle valve that takes the time to pressurise when the solenoid switches on.


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## Ady34 (25 Feb 2013)

ian_m said:


> Someone somewhere here on UKaps placed a fire extinguisher & regulator and solenoid on one side of his lounge, ran the CO2 tubing along the skirting board to the tank on the other side of the lounge no problem. Need to locate a needle valve, one way valve and bubble counter as close to the tank as possible as its this section beyond the needle valve that takes the time to pressurise when the solenoid switches on.


thats the one i was thinking of....pleased to hear it was ok to run longer co2 line


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## Ady34 (25 Feb 2013)

Hi Mike,
just measured my 2kg co2 cylinder and its actually 50cm high ......darn 2cm!


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## Palm Tree (25 Feb 2013)

Can you not cut a hole in the bottom of the cabinet base ?


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## Mike_81 (25 Feb 2013)

Palm Tree said:


> Can you not cut a hole in the bottom of the cabinet base ?


 
I'm not sure how the base is constructed but I'll look into it. I still think it would be a fairly tight fit, plus I could get more cylinder in the out-house. 

I was wondering how temperature would affect CO2 flow (if at all). Obviously the cylinder would be exposed to a fairly wide range of temperatures outside. Does anyone know if this would disrupt flow or affect the pressure?


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## ian_m (25 Feb 2013)

Mike_81 said:


> I was wondering how temperature would affect CO2 flow (if at all). Obviously the cylinder would be exposed to a fairly wide range of temperatures outside. Does anyone know if this would disrupt flow or affect the pressure?


Will be fine as long as temperature doesn't drop below -80'C in which case pressure will drop to zero and in the 100s of 'C the pressure relief disc will burst.


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## Mike_81 (25 Feb 2013)

Hmm think it'll be fine in the extreme climbs of West London then!


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## ian_m (26 Feb 2013)

Looking at your setup reminds me of the setup my mate had years ago. He had a marine tank and kept all the filters, pumps, skimmers, sumps etc in a shed next to his house. Makes for a very equipment free tank and easy servicing as was plenty of room in the shed with water supply and sink to wash and clean things. Major issue he had was condensation forming on things when cold.

Have you thought about that putting all the equipment outside ?


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## Mike_81 (26 Feb 2013)

ian_m said:


> Have you thought about that putting all the equipment outside ?


 
Not planning to put it all outside Ian, just the CO2 Cylinder and reg. Hopefully I'll find a way of getting the rest of it as close to the tank as possible.


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## O'Neil (27 Feb 2013)

I'd have a check valve at either end of the run, 2 inline flow valves and solenoid as close to the tank as possible.

This way when the Co2 shuts off at night the main line would remain pressurised, plus if the solenoid was in the shed it would take an age for the bubbles to stop while the main line drops it's pressure.

I'd keep the pressure in the main line higher, reduce it a bit on the first flow valve and take it down again to the desired rate you want going into the tank with the second.

I would strongly recommend using Pneumatic fittings most are rated to 10 bar which should be far more pressure than you need.

You may still get fluctuations with changing temps tho.


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## ian_m (27 Feb 2013)

Porksword said:


> I'd have a check valve at either end of the run, 2 inline flow valves and solenoid as close to the tank as possible.
> 
> This way when the Co2 shuts off at night the main line would remain pressurised, plus if the solenoid was in the shed it would take an age for the bubbles to stop while the main line drops it's pressure.


 I wouldn't, I would leave the solenoid on the regulator, all outside. So what the pipe takes a while to depressurise & bubbles takes a while to stop when the solenoid is off, pipe will instantly pressurise when the solenoid comes on.



Porksword said:


> You may still get fluctuations with changing temps tho.


Unlikely, and not likely to make any difference, that is the function of the regulator... to regulate.


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## O'Neil (27 Feb 2013)

Waste of co2 imo mate


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## O'Neil (27 Feb 2013)

I understand regulators regulating etc, i was thinking about expansion and contraction and if he would have to adjust his flow in winter/summer.


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## ian_m (27 Feb 2013)

Porksword said:


> I understand regulators regulating etc, i was thinking about expansion and contraction and if he would have to adjust his flow in winter/summer.


Nope, pressure would stay the same, say 2.5bar regardless of temperature, flow would be set whatever he set the needle valve at. I think you are confusing pressure and flow. No gas would be wasted as its all still in the pipe, awaiting to be pressurised and pushed into the tank.

Actually pubs store their CO2 outside or in cellar and pipe the lower pressure CO2 to point of delivery. I haven't heard people complaining their drinks are flat depending on the season.


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## O'Neil (27 Feb 2013)

Nah mate I know the difference.

If the solenoid was at the start of his run, the gas left in the main line would continue to gas off into the tank until the pressure became low enough to stop pushing thru the diffuser, thus wasting that gas unless unless you had a control at the other end to prevent it. 

Don't get me wrong you wouldn't lose it all there would still be gas in the pipe, I prefer to keep my losses to a minimum.

Expansion and contraction would be minimal, it's not as if were super heating and rapidly cooling the co2 and because of the speed it passes thru pipe, it's most like to be the same temp going into the tank as it is coming out of the bottle, at best these fluctuations would be minor, but don't Co2 fluctuations cause problems or does this only apply to wild fluctuations?


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## ian_m (27 Feb 2013)

Porksword said:


> Nah mate I know the difference.


Sorry then.


Porksword said:


> If the solenoid was at the start of his run, the gas left in the main line would continue to gas off into the tank until the pressure became low enough to stop pushing thru the diffuser, thus wasting that gas unless unless you had a control at the other end to prevent it.


Gas would not be wasted, it will be going into the tank, to be used by plants.


Porksword said:


> .. at best these fluctuations would be minor, but don't Co2 fluctuations cause problems or does this only apply to wild fluctuations?


It's major fluctuations that cause issues and over a couple of days. I once ran for a couple of days with no CO2, forgot to turn time clock on after water change, and did not suffer algae outbreak, melting plants etc.


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## O'Neil (27 Feb 2013)

Gas would not be wasted, it will be going into the tank, to be used by plants.

I do agree with that but I'd still do it the other way round mate, but that's personal pref' I guess.

It's major fluctuations that cause issues and over a couple of days. I once ran for a couple of days with no CO2, forgot to turn time clock on after water change, and did not suffer algae outbreak, melting plants etc.[/quote]

Learning something new everyday


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## O'Neil (27 Feb 2013)

Dunno what happened there with the quotes but nevermind.


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## Mike_81 (27 Feb 2013)

Hmm interesting discussion, thanks for the input!

As I mentioned at the start of the thread, I'm completely new to this. I think I understand the basics but have no idea where to source the bits I need. For example,



Porksword said:


> I'd have a check valve at either end of the run, 2 inline flow valves and solenoid as close to the tank as possible.


 
I understand the check valves bit but what would flow valves look like and where would you get them from? Also, I've seen regs with solenoids attached but what sort can you get which don't act on the reg?

And while I'm at it where would I find Pneumatic fittings?

It all sounds great and I'm itching to get ordering but I'm a bit stuck with where to start. Just about the only bit that I'm confident enough to source at the moment is the cylinder.


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## O'Neil (27 Feb 2013)

These are just examples of what I used there are different items available.

There are loads of regulators out there that you can use, I personally use a welding regulator it was all I could afford at the time.
My Reg looks like this one:
 CO2 Single Stage side entry welders Regulator Female fitting suits Pub Bottles | eBay

Inline flow valves look like these, it would be better tho if you could find them else where as this site is a tad expensive.
They Look like this:
Flow Controller (inline) - Hosefit - Top Online UK Supplier of Pneumatics, Hydraulics, Pipe Fittings & Industrial Hose at Trade Prices

The solenoid valve I bought is linked below, only had for a month but all has been well so far.
 CO2-magnetic Valve / Solenoid Valve Night Time Cut off | eBay

If you look down the left hand side of the hosefit site you'll see a heading for Pneumattic fittings.
I prefer to use the rigid nylon tubing for connecting the fittings altho you can use the more flexible type too
Another thing I can think of is the connection of the regulator to the FE / Co2 cylinder but there'll be a range of fittings that will allow you to get connected, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

If you like when I come in tomorrow I'll show you my setup, you'll have to forgive the untidyness of it tho, I haven't had time to sort it out yet.


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## O'Neil (27 Feb 2013)

PS the plug on the solenoid is easily rewired and only needs a 3 amp fuse.


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## Mike_81 (27 Feb 2013)

Wow, thanks!

Looks like I'll be spending a fair bit of time on hosefit.co.uk and eBay then. 



Porksword said:


> If you like when I come in tomorrow I'll show you my setup, you'll have to forgive the untidyness of it tho, I haven't had time to sort it out yet.


 
Yes, I'd be very interested to see how you've got everything hooked up. It makes it so much easier to get your head round when you can see it in pics!


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## freelanderuk (28 Feb 2013)

there is a solenoid in the for sale section that would be ok


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## O'Neil (28 Feb 2013)

Sorry for the time it's taken me to do this, it's been one of those days.

_This is far from finished, just don't have the time to sort it out at the moment._

My regulator connects into a gas valve, I installed this so I could isolate the supply with out fiddling with my settings, the first flow valve was one I had lying around and used it simply because it pointed downwards and the reducers were only used as they sent me the wrong inline flow valves (8mm instead of 6mm.....muppets)
I got the reducers from work for free so just reduced instead of the hassle of returning them.






After the second flow valve the tube goes straight down then back up into the solenoid, comes out the top and into check valve number one.





The tubing comes out of the check valve, goes into a bubble counter then into another check valve.





This is by no means finished and it's a little too messy for me to be proud of, but if it will help you then the hate mail will be worth it, lol.
I would quite easily get away with the regulator and a single flow valve, but like I said I wanted the pipe to point down and had it lying around.
The first check valve is protect the solenoid and the second is my final connection before going into the tank, hopefully will prevent flooding one day.

All you really need is below


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## ian_m (1 Mar 2013)

I wouldn't bother with that level of complexity and cost. KISS.... keep it simple stupid.

I would go for one of these regulators. I and many members here use these. Work fine with inline diffusers
CO2 Systems For Your Aquarium - CO2 Supermarket
Also will sell you a monster length of CO2 tubing.

I would then use two of these, one at FE end and other at tank end, before bubble counter. These have pipe clamps on and are not prone to blowing off  and having the tubing knocked off.
 2pcs x Aquarium CO2 Air Pump One Way Double Check Valve RAY002 | eBay

A needle valve at tank end.
 CO2 Needle Valve for Pressure Guage DIY Diffuser System Planted Aquarium | eBay

I have one of these bubble counters, has a built in check valve and tube clamps. Bubbles a bit small, maybe better suited to tiny tank, rather than 180litre, but really used to indicate CO2 is flowing.
 Aquarium PM Crystal CO2 Bubble Counter Check Valve | eBay

An inline diffuser (this is 16/22mm piping). I have used jubilee clips on mine as it was possible to accidentally pull the piping off the clamps when messing around with filters.
 Up Aqua CO2 Super Diffuser System Large Tube D519 16 L | eBay

Also to control you CO2 solenoid remotely, wirelessly controlled mains socket.
Anyone used Byron/Home Easy remote timeswitches ? | UK Aquatic Plant Society

Like this...


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## O'Neil (1 Mar 2013)

ian_m said:


> I wouldn't bother with that level of complexity and cost. KISS.... keep it simple stupid.


 
Look at the picture at the bottom, thats not even remotely complex.

I didn't suggest he copy mine it was mearly to show him what I had, there is always more than one of doing the same thing.

Remember.......KISS ; )


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## Mike_81 (2 Mar 2013)

Thanks to both Porksword and Ian_m! I wasn't expecting the level of detail you've provided, incredibly useful.

I think I've got everything I need now so will be putting together a design this weekend and will get ordering!

Watch this space for updates!


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## O'Neil (2 Mar 2013)

Nice one mate, happy to help.


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