# Talking with Diana walstad



## Ghosty (27 Mar 2015)

hey guys

I got to have a conversation with Diana walstad the other week, and thought I would share with you what she said regarding water cycles, may be common knowledge but maybe not

Ps we were talking about my tank, as I want to add Galaxy rasbora and try to breed in a community tank, she stated my water needs to be spot and. Is how to do it



"""You can do it that way if you want, stay RIGHT on top of the testing and be ready to do water changes as needed. Do enough water changes, frequency and volume to keep the ammonia under .25ppm and the nitrite under 1 ppm.
If you can get any of the bacteria in a bottle products that contain _Nitrospira_ species of bacteria, that would be safer. Add some with each addition of fish.

Here is how I would do this:
Get the tank set up, and planted.
Do the fishless cycle.
Add whatever fish you want. If not all the fish you want are available, then you may have to do something later to add more bacteria. But if you can get all the fish at one time, then the fishless cycle will grow all the bacteria you need.

Cycle: To grow the beneficial bacteria that remove ammonia and nitrite from the aquarium.

Fish-In Cycle: To expose fish to toxins while using them as the source of ammonia to grow nitrogen cycle bacteria. Exposure to ammonia burns the gills and other soft tissue, stresses the fish and lowers their immunity. Exposure to nitrite makes the blood unable to carry oxygen. Research methemglobinemia for details.

Fishless Cycle: The safe way to grow more bacteria, faster, in an aquarium, pond or riparium.

The method I give here was developed by 2 scientists who wanted to quickly grow enough bacteria to fully stock a tank all at one time, with no plants helping, and overstock it as is common with Rift Lake Cichlid tanks.

1a) Set up the tank and all the equipment. You can plant if you want. Include the proper dose of dechlorinator with the water.
Optimum water chemistry:
GH and KH above 3 German degrees of hardness. A lot harder is just fine.
pH above 7, and into the mid 8s is just fine.
Temperature in the upper 70s F (mid 20s C) is good. Higher is OK if the water is well aerated.
A trace of other minerals may help. Usually this comes in with the water, but if you have a pinch of KH2PO4, that may be helpful.
High oxygen level. Make sure the filter and power heads are running well. Plenty of water circulation.
No toxins in the tank. If you washed the tank, or any part of the system with any sort of cleanser, soap, detergent, bleachor anything else make sure it is well rinsed. Do not put your hands in the tank when you are wearing any sort of cosmetics, perfumeor hand lotion. No fish medicines of any sort.
A trace of salt (sodium chloride) is OK, but not required.
This method of growing bacteria will work in a marine system, too. The species of bacteria are different.

1b) Optional: Add any source of the bacteria that you are growing to seed the tank. Cycled media from a healthy tank is good. Decor or some gravel from a cycled tank is OK. Live plants or plastic are OK. I have even heard of the right bacteria growing in the bio film found on driftwood. (So if you have been soaking some driftwood in preparation to adding it to the tank, go ahead and put it into the tank) Bottled bacteria is great, but only if it contains Nitrospira species of bacteria. Read the label and do not waste your money on anything else.
At the time this was written the right species could be found in:
Dr. Tims One and Only
Tetra Safe Start
Microbe Lift Nite Out II
...and perhaps others.
You do not have to jump start the cycle. The right species of bacteria are all around, and will find the tank pretty fast.

2) Add ammonia until the test reads 5 ppm. This ammonia is the cheapest you can find. No surfactants, no perfumes. Read the fine print. This is often found at discount stores like Dollar Tree, or hardware stores like Ace. You could also use a dead shrimp form the grocery store, or fish food. Protein breaks down to become ammonia. You do not have good control over the ammonia level, though.
Some substrates release ammonia when they are submerged for the first time. Monitor the level and do enough water changes to keep the ammonia at the levels detailed below.

3) Test daily. For the first few days not much will happen, but the bacteria that remove ammonia are getting started. Finally the ammonia starts to drop. Add a little more, once a day, to test 5 ppm.

4) Test for nitrite. A day or so after the ammonia starts to drop the nitrite will show up. When it does allow the ammonia to drop to 3 ppm.

5) Test daily. Add ammonia to 3 ppm once a day. If the nitrite or ammonia go to 5 ppm do a water change to get these lower. The ammonia removing species and the nitrite removing species (Nitrospira) do not do well when the ammonia or nitrite are over 5 ppm.

6) When the ammonia and nitrite both hit zero 24hours after you have added the ammonia the cycle is done. You can challenge the bacteria by adding a bit more than 3 ppm ammonia, and it should be able to handle that, too, within 24 hours.

7) Now test the nitrate. Probably sky high!
Do as big a water change as needed to lower the nitrate until it is safe for fish. Certainly well under 20, and a lot lower is better. This may call for more than one water change, and up to 100% water change is not a problem. Remember the dechlor!
If you will be stocking right away (within 24 hours) no need to add more ammonia. If stocking will be delayed keep feeding the bacteria by adding ammonia to 3 ppm once a day. You will need to do another water change right before adding the fish.
__________________________

Helpful hints:

A) You can run a fishless cycle in a bucket to grow bacteria on almost any filter media like bio balls, sponges, ceramic bio noodles, lava rock or Matala mats. Simply set up any sort of water circulationsuch as a fountainpump or air bubbler and add the media to the bucket. Follow the directions for the fishless cycle. When the cycle is done add the media to the filter. I have run a canister filter in a bucket and done the fishless cycle.

B) The nitrogen cycle bacteria will live under a wide range of conditions and bounce back from minor set backs. By following the set up suggestions in part 1a) you are setting up optimum conditions for fastest reproduction and growth.
GH and KH can be as low as 1 degree, but watch it! These bacteria use the carbon in carbonates, and if it is all used up (KH = 0) the bacteria may die off.
pH as low as 6.5 is OK, but by 6.0 the bacteria are not going to be doing very well. They are still there, and will recover pretty well when conditions get better.
Temperature almost to freezing is OK, but they must not freeze, and they are not very active at all. They do survive in a pond, but they are slow to warm up and get going in the spring. This is where you might need to grow some in a bucket in a warm place and supplement the pond population. Too warm is not good, either. Tropical or room temperature tank temperatures are best. (68 to 85*F or 20 to 28*C)
Moderate oxygen can be tolerated for a while. However, to remove lots of ammonia and nitrite these bacteria must have oxygen. They turn one into the other by adding oxygen. If you must stop running the filter for an hour or so, no problem. If longer, remove the media and keep it where it will get more oxygen.
Once the bacteria are established they can tolerate some fish medicines. This is because they live in a complex film called Bio film on all the surfaces in the filter and the tank. Medicines do not enter the bio film well.
These bacteria do not need to live under water. They do just fine in a humid location. They live in healthy garden soil, as well as wet locations.

C) Planted tanks may not tolerate 3 ppm or 5 ppm ammonia. It is possible to cycle the tank at lower levels of ammonia so the plants do not get ammonia burn. Add ammonia to only 1 ppm, but test twice a day, and add ammonia as needed to keep it at 1 ppm. The plants are also part of the bio filter, and you may be able to add the fish sooner, if the plants are thriving.


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## MirandaB (27 Mar 2015)

Or you can do it the "easy" way and stuff the filter with mature media which is what I do every time I set up a new tank


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## EnderUK (27 Mar 2015)

I do not follow this advice. I advice trying to seed your filter, substrate and glass with the bacteria from an existing filter. Then do big water changes.


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## Ghosty (27 Mar 2015)

It's what I do aswell 

ender what she is doing is colonising new filter media in the shortest amount of time, and it works I tested it on a spare tank I had in the shed, took about a week, granted a seeded media start up would be i between instand and a few days with water changes, I think the information is aimed more for complete media colonisation if seeded isn't avalible, plus the advice was given to me because I wanted optimum water for adding delicate fish


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## tam (27 Mar 2015)

If you've already got a tank or a friend with one then seeding the tank with media from another filter will definitely speed things up. Keep in mind though bacteria still take time to grow. If you take a third of the media from one tank then you've only got instant bacteria for a third of the stock level that tank was running at. Not an issue if you then stock gradually.

One reason people like the fishless cycling with ammonia is you can build up a big colony and then stock more quickly. Of course, the cycle can take 4-6 weeks to work through starting from scratch so it's not instant either.

The quickest would be combining so you take your portion of bacteria and grow it on, the fishless cycle is much quicker because you're start a third of the way in not from scratch.


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## EnderUK (27 Mar 2015)

Ammonia is a poison to bacteria as well as live Stock. Don't add it to your tank theres enough in it already due to decaying plant matter.

Grow plants not bacteria job done.


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## Ghosty (27 Mar 2015)

I'm not saying it's what I'm doing, 
Lots what she recommended for a new tank to gain optimal water parameters with no seeding material,
Li personally add seeded material and plants, and do water changes

I think for people who have no resources as for seeded media it's a workable idea for building big colonies of bacteria, with the quick addition of stock

Just though I'd share her opinion, as of everything in this world you take what is accustomed to you, and everything else as witch craft


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## Ghosty (27 Mar 2015)

And tbh I fish cycled my ten gallon with tetras, and platies, lots of water changes and I also added nitrifying bacteria, my casualties were down to them annoying my bn plec, watched them all happen lol


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## Tim Harrison (29 Mar 2015)

Wow that's a lot of work...

IME, existing bacteria in the water and on plant roots and leaves will inoculate the filter...you can add additional bacteria if you want to...it may speed the process up a bit. 
All you really need to do is plant heavily from the outset and add your aquatic critters gradually. 
The use of macrophytes as water purifiers is well documented, so planting heavily from the outset will also help to reduce ammonia and other chemical compounds to non-toxic levels. 
There is no need to suffer the hassle of dosing ammonia, and endless water testing.
Overall, levels of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate always seem to stabilize within acceptable levels quite quickly, often within a week or two.


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## dw1305 (29 Mar 2015)

Hi all, 





Troi said:


> All you really need to do is plant heavily from the outset and add your aquatic critters gradually.
> The use of macrophytes as water purifiers is well documented, so planting heavily from the outset will also help to reduce ammonia and other chemical compounds to non-toxic levels.
> There is no need to suffer the hassle of dosing ammonia, and endless water testing. Overall, levels of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate always seem to stabilize within acceptable levels quite quickly, often within a week or two.


 That is very much my view as well. 

I've never kept a system without plants, but if I was forced (and I would have to be forced) to rely on microbial biological filtration alone I still don't think I'd go down the "added ammonia" route. 

I'd like a huge "wet and dry" trickle filter, and after a couple of weeks that would be able to deal with a large bioload. If I had doubts about the capacity of biological filtration system, I'd rather carry on with larger volume water changes, and probably use a water conditioner like "Amquel". You don't have to worry about ammonia toxicity in the same way then.

I know people use the "fishless cycle", with added ammonia, successfully, but I would be wary of the results of any of the test kits available to us, and even when your tank is "cycled"  you are balanced on a knife edge where small changes in oxygenation can lead to fish death. 

I've got a lot of time for Diana Walstad, if you read <"her book"> it really reinforces the point that plants are the thing that makes tank management easier. It is a book that every aquarium keeper should own.

The bottom line is that plant/microbe systems are much more stable and resilient than microbe alone systems, particularly if you have plants with the <"aerial advantage">.

cheers Darrel


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## Ghosty (29 Mar 2015)

I think as IV mentioned in other threads the vast variables, and vast equipment means, that more then one theory can be applied with success, it's like everything else in life you take what relates and is relevant to you, at any given time, we have all glanced or even tried someone else's theory, onlyle to modify or reinforce that with someone else's idea,

So I giess if it wasn't for us all half of these theories wouldn't even be known, so they must work to a degree, everything works it's just what you take from the opinion that makes it viable to you


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## alto (29 Mar 2015)

Fishless cycling is very popular with rift tanks where large fish populations are added in one go, many tanganyikan fish are very intolerant of poor water quality (again fish are usually added in groups) ... rift lake fishes are (often) relatively massive compared to most species chosen for planted tanks, also note the pH of these tanks re ammonia & effect on the N-cycle bacteria activity ... even if "seed" material is taken from an existing tank/filter, a modified fishless cycle is run to establish a large, active N-cycle population.


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## BigTom (29 Mar 2015)

As you probably guess I'm totally with Troi and Darrel on this one. Plants all the way.

I think the other thing that people really don't consider with ammonia cycling is that although you may end up with a microbial system able to deal with a relatively large amount of ammonia, that system is going to be inherently unstable once you start stocking fish.

With an ammonia cycle you are selecting for microbes that are able to survive in and rapidly scavenge large amounts of free ammonia (2-5ppm), whereas in an established tank the amount of free ammonia in the water at any given time is likely to be under 0.1ppm, which favours completely different bacteria (and mainly archaea it seems) that are adapted for efficient scavenging of small amounts of ammonia (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0023281). If I know one thing about biological systems, it's that they tend to be horribly messy and unstable, hence why 'cycled' tanks can throw up all sorts of problems in the first few months, probably in part due to wholesale shifts in the composition of the microbial populations.

Compare that to growing plants, which give you very efficient ammonia uptake, reduce BOD (I'm sure those three keys must be completely worn out on Darrel's keyboard!) and replicate the same low ammonia conditions needed to cultivate the microbes that you actually want long term.


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## Ghosty (29 Mar 2015)

Just to clarify I dont do what she suggests, I did test it, as I do all things other wise I wouldn't learn,

So how would you all add a large school of fish, as surley the amount of ammonia produced by say 30 x2 inch fish, would overload the filters built up bacteria colony

Also I was always under the impression that the media bacteria deals with amonia, and the plants deal with nitrates? Could some explain for me please, not to sound stupid but that's what IV always assumed,


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## BigTom (29 Mar 2015)

Ghosty said:


> So how would you all add a large school of fish



Gradually if possible, but if you have enough plants and a well oxygenated filter you can get away with it... I dumped 50 odd fish into my tank in one go, but it is over 500l with enormous riparian plants, so a bit of a special case. As ever just stock at a rate that is sensible for your particular tank.



Ghosty said:


> Also I was always under the impression that the media bacteria deals with amonia, and the plants deal with nitrates?



Aquatic plants uptake both ammonia/ammonium/nitrite and nitrates. Different plants prefer different ratios, but most preferentailly uptake ammonium over nitrate. http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Plants_and_Biological_Filtration


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## EnderUK (29 Mar 2015)

Plants will mop up ammonia for nitrogen just as much as they will nitrates and nitrite. You can add urea into your tank and your plants will love it but the fish won't.


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## Ghosty (29 Mar 2015)

Ok cheers guys, 

So best method of a tank cycle is the mix of plants and seeded media, 

Learn new things everyday with this hobby


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## Ghosty (29 Mar 2015)

Ghosty said:


> Ok cheers guys,
> 
> So best method of a tank cycle is the mix of plants and seeded media,
> 
> Learn new things everyday with this hobby



Not that I didn't know how to cycle I mean I learnt that plants eat amonia aswell as nitrates lol


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## dw1305 (29 Mar 2015)

Hi all,





BigTom said:


> Compare that to growing plants, which give you very efficient ammonia uptake, reduce BOD (I'm sure those three keys must be completely worn out on Darrel's keyboard!)


 Yep I haven't made 4000 posts, I've made the same post 4000 times. 





Ghosty said:


> So best method of a tank cycle is the mix of plants and seeded media,


 Pretty much, it is "belt and braces". 





Ghosty said:


> I think as IV mentioned in other threads the vast variables, and vast equipment means, that more then one theory can be applied with success, it's like everything else in life you take what relates and is relevant to you, at any given time, we have all glanced or even tried someone else's theory, onlyl to modify or reinforce that with someone else's idea,


 Yes I'm not saying other methods can't work, they can and do. For me  really it is is all about the probable, not the possible. In the same way that Leicester City can beat Manchester United in a one off game, or a 100:1 outsider win the Grand National, a skilled aquarist can often manage an inherently unstable tank.

If you like densely planted tanks, with large gas exchange surfaces, de-skill fish-keeping.  Like Tom says they take a whole host of potential problems (low dissolved oxygen, measurable ammonia, fish aggression issues etc.), and basically side-line all of them. Even better the plants add negative feedback loops, where high levels of nutrients lead to more plant growth, which removes more nutrients etc.

I think this one should be available to every-one: <"UTILIZATION OF MACROPHYTE BIOFILTER IN EFFLUENT FROM AQUACULTURE: I. FLOATING PLANT">.

cheers Darrel


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## Tim Harrison (29 Mar 2015)

...My philosophy has always been minimum effort maximum gain...nature is the original plug in and play...
..."a system without the need for physical device configuration or user intervention in resolving resource conflicts"


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## sciencefiction (30 Mar 2015)

BigTom said:


> I think the other thing that people really don't consider with ammonia cycling is that although you may end up with a microbial system able to deal with a relatively large amount of ammonia, that system is going to be inherently unstable once you start stocking fish.


 
On the contrary, the tank is very stable. I've done it numerous times and it's been the only method after which I am very comfortable adding fish without worrying for mini spikes I don't notice.



BigTom said:


> With an ammonia cycle you are selecting for microbes that are able to survive in and rapidly scavenge large amounts of free ammonia (2-5ppm), whereas in an established tank the amount of free ammonia in the water at any given time is likely to be under 0.1ppm, which favours completely different bacteria (and mainly archaea it seems) that are adapted for efficient scavenging of small amounts of ammonia (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?



Only if you dose ammonia over 4-5ppm you may develop different species of bacteria. 3ppm is best and done that way the tank is rock solid stable when finished.  As alto mentioned above if you are adding sensitive species in one go fishless is the way to go even if using mature media to start it up.

I've done all methods above, fishless cycle with ammonia. Fish in cycle with plants and Fish in cycle with Tetra safe start and using mature media, and they all work, though it takes different care and different amount of time.
If you don't know how to grow plants properly or don't want much plants tha


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## dw1305 (30 Mar 2015)

Hi all,
As Tom alluded to earlier there is some research that suggests that the eventual microbial community within the filter is dominated by a stable assemblage of AOA ("Ammonia-Oxidising Archaea") in normal (low) ammonia conditions, and that this assemblage would differ from the initial AOB (Ammonia-Oxidising Bacteria) dominated community which occurs during "cycling".

I think the problem is that, like all of ecology, it is a complex fluid system and that people want black and white answers in a "_shades of grey_" world.

This is from  Bagchi _et al_ (2014) "Temporal and Spatial Stability of Ammonia-Oxidizing Archaea and Bacteria in Aquarium Biofilters" (open access (PLOS one)). 





> _The new sponge material placed inside F3 before the start of the experiment might explain AOB dominance during the initial period, because previous research has reported rapid colonization of AOB in newly installed aquarium biofilters [34]. The initial AOB community might have gradually been outcompeted by AOA, under persistent low ammonia concentrations. Indeed, a spatial differentiation of AOB and AOA was observed within one month of operation according to the likely oxygen gradient (AOB in the top filter and AOA in the bottom filter), with a gradual increase in AOA over time_


I know from our work with landfill leachate that if you can get enough oxygen into the "water" a relatively small amount of established filter material can deal with a huge bioload.

cheers Darrel


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## Tim Harrison (30 Mar 2015)

IME fishless cycling just isn't necessary. Nature invariably provides the simplest, most economical, effective and efficient solutions, if you just let it take its course, hence the analogy in my last post...That's why I try not to meddle with stuff if I can at all help it...plus I'm fundamentally lazy...


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## ajm83 (30 Mar 2015)

Troi said:


> IME fishless cycling just isn't necessary. Nature invariably provides the simplest, most economical, effective and efficient solutions, if you just let it take its course, hence the analogy in my last post...That's why I try not to meddle with stuff if I can at all help it...plus I'm fundamentally lazy...



Look, that method may work for you & I when starting a new tank, but most people aren't planting tanks anywhere near as heavily or as successfully as members of this site are. And certainly not from the get-go on a new tank.

For example, most fishkeeping friends who see my tanks are really impressed - 'wow those plants are AMAZING!' they say. Yet compared to 90% of members of UKAPS, they are pretty dire. So to think those types of people who are impressed with MY shoddy tanks could keep plants growing quickly and healthily enough to mop up the nitrogen to an extent where the fish are kept safely is a non-starter in my opinion. They kill off even elodea, cabomba, java fern, anubias etc in short order. Probably even give duckweed a run for its money!

Fishless gives these people a simple procedure to follow. Add 3ppm of ammonia, test a day later. Repeat until you get zeros on ammonia and nitrite. Really easy to complete, and far less effort than an unplanted fish-in cycle.


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## Tim Harrison (30 Mar 2015)

I was like one of your friends once upon a time in a galaxy far far away. I didn't even know what fishless cycling was way back then...I doubt it even existed...but somehow I, and my fellow aquarists, muddled along without it, and without much in the way of plants, and I seem to remember without critter casualties. Though it was such a long time ago I maybe confabulating a little...


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## Colinlp (30 Mar 2015)

Troi said:


> Though it was such a long time ago I maybe confabulating a little...


I don't know about then....


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## sciencefiction (31 Mar 2015)

The creatures exposed to fish in cycle don't die on the trot. They most likely live through it if enough water changes are done. .  But they just don't last their supposed lifetime afterwards and if the tank had enough unnoticed mini spikes during the "cycling" period, disease outbreaks follow a few months down the line. Thus people don't associate the cycling with the disease as it happens quite a time apart but the truth is, it weakens their immune system for months to follow.  So I don't care how safe a method is, I don't put fish until the tank is cycled, not anymore. Any method is ok as long as one is familiar with it and is successful doing it.

Time wise, people that start up tanks with plants, still wait 2-3 weeks before introducing fish and that's about the time it takes when I've done fishless cycles with ammonia too.  All those method take time to be safe for fish. Mature media helps but one can't be sure it will handle the immediate bioload so even this method may take a week before its safe for the most sensitive of fish.


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## Ghosty (31 Mar 2015)

i have to agree, that fish exposed to fish in cycle get random illness months after, even though I did lots of water change and added nitrifying bacteria every time I added fish, the fish that went through it all have red Gills, and get random stuff then die 3 days later, Iv lost guppys tetras and platies like this, but some have survived but doubt they last longer the. A year, don't get me wrong there colourful and playful, just learnt a lot from making mistakes

Am not looking to add any fish till I'm happy with the scape, and it's been a few weeks, during witch I will feed ammonia, 

Ghosty


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