# Confused about dry start method



## Aqua Hero

I'm preparing to do a dry start method with both carpeting plants and mosses (since they will all come in their emersed form).

I literally spent the whole of yesterday reading articles, forum posts and videos on this method and there is a lot of conflicting information which is confusing me.

Question 1) If I'm using moss, do I have to spray the moss everyday?

Question 2) When covering to top of the tank, do I leave a small gap for air exchange and leave it OR peel back the film for 5 minutes and then cover it completely with no gaps OR keep the film completely covered and only open when I want to hydrate the moss and soil?

Question 3) has anyone tried rhizotonic with a dsm, I read somewhere that it's effective for mosses but I wanted to ask just in case. Is it any good?


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## Jayefc1

Question 1 
Yes you have to keep the moss damp if it dry out under the lights it will die 

Question 2
 I kept mine covered permanently and aired for ten mins when misting but this all depends on the humidity of which I guess depends on your light 

Question 3 
Sorry I cant comment as I've never used it I do know there are a couple of threads on here that may help you


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## Tim Harrison

I can only go by my own experience. I sealed the tank with cling film, and opened it up for 5 mins every day to replace old stagnant air with fresh air. At the same time I sprayed the plants (daily). Spraying also creates a draft that helps with the movement of the air in and out of the tank. This may help to prevent mould. I also kept the water level to just below the surface of the substrate, it's difficult to do with daily spraying and I often had to syphon out some water using an air hose. If that's not an option you can use a syringe or a sponge to absorb the water. This appears to be key, it perhaps allows the roots to breath a little.

So in short, the methodology is as follows...

1. Add water to a level just below the surface of the substrate; _don't let the water level raise above the top of the substrate, which can happen with daily misting._
2. Keep the tank sealed, but let fresh air in for 5 minutes every day to replace the old stagnant air, this may help prevent mould.
3. Spray and mist the plants.
4. Reseal.
5. Repeat daily for between 2 - 6 weeks during which time your lawn should become fully established, and then flood.

The DSM works best if the substrate is relatively level. If it's steeply banked it becomes difficult to regulate moisture levels, i.e. too dry at the top and too wet at the bottom.
Condensation is usual and the aim is to create high humidity, most plants we like to use are from tropical wetlands and have evolved in high humidity.
Health wise the plants should be green and verdant and after a week or two should start to grow quite vigorously. Watch out for any signs of mould, if there is any you may need to let fresh air in for a little longer than 5 mins. It may also help to wipe the condensation off after you've sprayed.

As for rhizotonic, I'm sure it'd work well, but you really only need to folia feed a dilute solution of fertz, I used 3mls of TNC Complete in 1 litre of water.


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## Zeus.

As above OFC

My DSM lasted nearly three months in a tank with glass lids, the first week I sealed the tank after that I just had the glass covers on and the condensation was just on the lower parts of the glass as air was able to get in through the cut outs in the bracing. 
Towards the end I use to leave the lids open for long periods even days as it help control the mold. Plus would of maxed out the flow of the 400ppm CO2.
Had lights on max 12hrs a day.


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## Aqua Hero

Tim Harrison said:


> I can only go by my own experience. I sealed the tank with cling film, and opened it up for 5 mins every day to replace old stagnant air with fresh air. At the same time I sprayed the plants (daily). Spraying also creates a draft that helps with the movement of the air in and out of the tank. This may help to prevent mould. I also kept the water level to just below the surface of the substrate, it's difficult to do with daily spraying and I often had to syphon out some water using an air hose. If that's not an option you can use a syringe or a sponge to absorb the water. This appears to be key, it perhaps allows the roots to breath a little.
> 
> So in short, the methodology is as follows...
> 
> 1. Add water to a level just below the surface of the substrate; _don't let the water level raise above the top of the substrate, which can happen with daily misting._
> 2. Keep the tank sealed, but let fresh air in for 5 minutes every day to replace the old stagnant air, this may help prevent mould.
> 3. Spray and mist the plants.
> 4. Reseal.
> 5. Repeat daily for between 2 - 6 weeks during which time your lawn should become fully established, and then flood.
> 
> The DSM works best if the substrate is relatively level. If it's steeply banked it becomes difficult to regulate moisture levels, i.e. too dry at the top and too wet at the bottom.
> Condensation is usual and the aim is to create high humidity, most plants we like to use are from tropical wetlands and have evolved in high humidity.
> Health wise the plants should be green and verdant and after a week or two should start to grow quite vigorously. Watch out for any signs of mould, if there is any you may need to let fresh air in for a little longer than 5 mins. It may also help to wipe the condensation off after you've sprayed.
> 
> As for rhizotonic, I'm sure it'd work well, but you really only need to folia feed a dilute solution of fertz, I used 3mls of TNC Complete in 1 litre of water.


Thanks Tim, I actually read all the pages of your journal for that tank yesterday as well and It was very helpful. Nothing short of amazing

I did read however that misting the plants, more specifically the carpeting plants actually causes the leave a to rot due to water droplets sitting on the leaves and thus result to mold. They say it's better to just mist the soil it's self if it's getting dry. 

I'm thinking to do as you have but maybe just spray the moss on the rocks and wood directly and not the carpet plants since as long as the soil is moist and not flooded it's will stop grow. What do you think?


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## Aqua Hero

Zeus. said:


> As above OFC
> 
> My DSM lasted nearly three months in a tank with glass lids, the first week I sealed the tank after that I just had the glass covers on and the condensation was just on the lower parts of the glass as air was able to get in through the cut outs in the bracing.
> Towards the end I use to leave the lids open for long periods even days as it help control the mold. Plus would of maxed out the flow of the 400ppm CO2.
> Had lights on max 12hrs a day.


Right so then would it be a good idea for me to just leave a small permanent opening on the film to make sure it doesn't get to humid, while still opening the film every day for 5 minutes?


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## Aqua Hero

Also guys, do I spray the tank first and then leave it open for 5-10 minutes OR leave the tank open first and then spray?


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## foxfish

Good on you for doing your revision but there are many ways to achieve a successful dry start.
The same applies with a filled tank, lots of approaches and a never ending choice of different scapes, plants and equipment that can all effect results from one tank to another.

You will have to choose one of the many method and possibly  adapt it to your individual set up.

I have been doing this for many years and always have at least one  tanks on the go.
The very best results for me have come from completely  sealed tanks, no spraying or airing at all.
Others have had problems with mould but I have not!

There will be many variables due to tank position and light, amount of heat, and how or if, you heat the tank.
My set ups are heated and therefor self watering as the glass covers drip with condensation.

There are documented cases of sealed bottle gardens  going back to Victorian times so this is not a new concept.
Some bottle gardens have stayed sealed for 30 + years without ever being watered.

I also think that folk like to have something to do, so opening the seal and spraying feels better and makes you feel like you are  doing something positive.

Regardless of my own success, I would have to say that Tim’s efforts were outstanding and obviously his method was extremely successful.


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## Tim Harrison

Aqua Hero said:


> I did read however that misting the plants, more specifically the carpeting plants actually causes the leave a to rot due to water droplets sitting on the leaves and thus result to mold. They say it's better to just mist the soil it's self if it's getting dry.


That's definitely not been my experience, and misting the plants allowed me to folia feed.

At the end of the day it's like Foxfish says, there are many routes to success, that's why I mention I can only go by my own experience.
The important factor is that you have many different ideas to draw upon if you need to do things slightly differently to say keep mould at bay etc


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## sparkyweasel

Aqua Hero said:


> I did read however that misting the plants, more specifically the carpeting plants actually causes the leave a to rot due to water droplets sitting on the leaves and thus result to mold.


I think that's what happens when people spray instead of misting. 
With a mister you won't get water droplets.


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## Zeus.

Surely mist is just fine water droplets


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## sparkyweasel

Mist leaves a film of water on a surface, not drops.


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## Aqua Hero

Thank you guys so much for the advice and help. My small desk light arrived (which I'm using in a different tank) so I'm now able to use my old beamswork led unit for dry start.

Hopefully during the next 6-8 weeks my
*Chihiros a-series unit arrive and ready for when I flood it. Fingers crossed.*
Also thought it would be a good idea to have another tank running that my filter gets cycled as well. And once it's cycled, I will use the tank as a california blackworm farm for some very small interesting fish I'm planning to get.


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## Zeus.

Aqua Hero said:


> Also thought it would be a good idea to have another tank running that my filter gets cycled as well.



 I did the same when I did my DSM. Used the bin for garden waste filled it with water in the garage and added some fish flakes and bio waste for the micros to feed on.


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## Aqua Hero

Well I've done it..sort of. I finished planting all the carpeting plants (took a good 2hrs but was nice an relaxing). I had so many plants that I couldn't plant them all so I have them stored in plastic containers near the window with the same substrate setup as my tank.

Unfortunately my proshrimp didn't send my mosses on time so I have to wait tomorrow to blend them and attach them to the rocks and wood.

I can see why people get into the habit of over misting the tanks because they don't look that humid to the naked eye. I'm just gonna have faith and see what happens. 

Also should I make journal for this tank? 
What do you guys think?


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## Aqua Hero

I have another question. After I flood the tank, do I start dosing darts right away or do I want for a week before i start dosing ferts


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## Tim Harrison

I'd start dosing fertz straight away. However, if you're using a Gucci substrate that's high in nutrients like ADA it's not essential to begin with.


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## sparkyweasel

Aqua Hero said:


> I can see why people get into the habit of over misting the tanks because they don't look that humid to the naked eye. I'm just gonna have faith and see what happens.



Humidity meters (hygrometers) are not very expensive. eg;
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Eidyer-Tem...6YSHAQZJZQP&psc=1&refRID=HV4AVM7A76YSHAQZJZQP


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## Aqua Hero

Tim Harrison said:


> I'd start dosing fertz straight away. However, if you're using a Gucci substrate that's high in nutrients like ADA it's not essential to begin with.


I'm using a combination of miracle gro all purpose pellets the bottom, 1 litre of tropica plant substrate and it's caped off with 4L of Fluval Stratum (Normally I would use ada Amazonia but my LFS that sold them cheap moved and I forgot the new address)


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## Aqua Hero

sparkyweasel said:


> Humidity meters (hygrometers) are not very expensive. eg;
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Eidyer-Tem...6YSHAQZJZQP&psc=1&refRID=HV4AVM7A76YSHAQZJZQP


I've actually got one on it's way, royal mail is just being slow


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## Aqua Hero

@Tim Harrison did your moss ever look as dry as this

My hygrometer is saying the humidity is still 99% but the moss on the wood looks really dry. The ones on the rocks still look damp


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Aqua Hero said:


> moss on the wood looks really dry.


Too dry.

If the wood isn't fully saturated with water it will "suck" the water from the moss. This will keep on happening until the wood is fully saturated with water. You can try spraying it, but even then you may find you can't spray it regularly enough to keep the moss suitably damp.

Personally I would only attempt a moss dry start with wood that has been into soak for a long time, and then I would keep <"the container sealed">. I would want everything beaded with water. "Dry start" is a misnomer, you want a "wet start", but just not under a layer of water. 





Aqua Hero said:


> The ones on the rocks still look damp


It is likely that the rock isn't permeable, so any moisture will sit on top in a film or puddle.

The puddle will only evaporate when the relative humidity in the air falls below 100%.  You still have to be a little bit careful, because warm air can hold a lot more moisture than cold air, and any rapid warming (of the dry start) is likely to lead in a  fall in relative humidity and damage to the moss leaves (microphylls), even if there is a reservoir of water that can vapourise and return the relative humidity to 100%. You just have a lag period when relative humidity is lower than 100%.

Bryophytes  and fern prothalli are different from vascular plants, they don't have any conductive tissue (like xylem) to distribute water to the "leaves", or specialised epidermal cells to restrict water loss. They need to be really wet to survive. 

If you can't find anything specifically for culturing moss on wood in a dry start have a look at the cultural requirements of "Filmy Ferns".

You can get also get the reverse situation with a permeable substrate (a rock like tufa,  or a really wet branch) where the rock etc acts as a water reservoir and a fall in the humidity of the air will lead to water vapour travelling out of the rock into the air (and the attached moss).

cheers Darrel


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## Aqua Hero

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, Too dry.
> 
> If the wood isn't fully saturated with water it will "suck" the water from the moss. This will keep on happening until the wood is fully saturated with water. You can try spraying it, but even then you may find you can't spray it regularly enough to keep the moss suitably damp.
> 
> Personally I would only attempt a moss dry start with wood that has been into soak for a long time, and then I would keep <"the container sealed">. I would want everything beaded with water. It is likely that the rock isn't permeable, so any moisture will sit on top in a film or puddle.
> 
> The puddle will only evaporate when the relative humidity in the air falls below 100%.  You still have to be a little bit careful, because warm air can hold a lot more moisture than cold air, and any rapid warming (of the dry start) is likely to lead in a  fall in relative humidity and damage to the moss leaves (microphylls), even if there is a reservoir of water that can vapourise and return the relative humidity to 100%. You just have a lag period when relative humidity is lower than 100%.
> 
> You can get also get the reverse situation with a permeable substrate (a rock like tufa,  or a really wet branch) where the rock etc acts as a water reservoir and a fall in the humidity of the air will lead to water vapour travelling out of the rock into the air (and the attached moss).
> 
> cheers Darrel


That's just wonderful. And I actually soaked the wood for a good 3 weeks. Fortunately I saved some of the left over moss in containers I have misted and left near the window to grow so I can re use it when the tank is read to be flooded.

I actually though high temperature was a bad thing. I now have my light closer to the tank so the tank is about 27c and room temp is 24c. I will try to keep the wood as wet as possible for the time being. I wish I knew this sooner else I wouldn't have put the moss on the wood but then again I still have a huge amount of moss left over.



Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Aqua Hero said:


> I actually though high temperature was a bad thing. I now have my light closer to the tank so the tank is about 27c and room temp is 24c. I will try to keep the wood as wet as possible for the time being. I wish I knew this sooner else I wouldn't have put the moss on the wood but then again I still have a huge amount of moss left over.


Sorry run out of time to edit my other post. .....Have a  look at this <"guide to filmy ferns">, basically they are the conditions you want for your moss to attach to the wood.

Filmy Ferns (Hymenophyllaceae) are really similar to semi-aquatic mosses in their cultural requirements, mainly because they have similar, really thin, "leaves", which are very easily damaged by low humidity.

cheers Darrel


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## Aqua Hero

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, Sorry run out of time to edit my other post. .....Have a  look at this <"guide to filmy ferns">, basically they are the conditions you want for your moss to attach to the wood.
> 
> Filmy Ferns (Hymenophyllaceae) are really similar to semi-aquatic mosses in their cultural requirements, mainly because they have similar, really thin, "leaves", which are very easily damaged by low humidity.
> 
> cheers Darrel


In that case I'm alright. I'll let the moss dry out because the last thing I need is too much moisture to the cause mold.

Like I said I have also of extra moss that I didn't use


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## Tim Harrison

Aqua Hero said:


> @Tim Harrison did your moss ever look as dry as this


No it didn't. The key is high humidity... I don't think you really need to worry about mould, I never got any using the method I gave above. 
Give the whole scape a good soaking with a mister/sprayer every day, otherwise the DSM probably won't work, and you'd be better off just flooding from the start


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## Aqua Hero

Tim Harrison said:


> No it didn't. The key is high humidity... I don't think you really need to worry about mould, I never got any using the method I gave above.
> Give the whole scape a good soaking with a mister/sprayer every day, otherwise the DSM probably won't work, and you'd be better off just flooding from the start



After re misting it a few hours ago the wood has gone dry again. Tbh it's not a lot of moss since it's just small chopped blended parts. 

On the positive side, after two days I'm actually seeing growth on some of the carpet plants and the moss on the lava rock is still damp. 

After the 2 months I will just re apply the extra moss in containers on the wood and then flood it


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## Andrew Butler

Aqua Hero said:


> My hygrometer is saying the humidity is still 99% but the moss on the wood looks really dry.


Try getting the hydrometer into 'open air' so it's not sat in/on something really wet - it might make no difference but then again it might.


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## Aqua Hero

Andrew Butler said:


> Try getting the hydrometer into 'open air' so it's not sat in/on something really wet - it might make no difference but then again it might.


 I've put it on the very top of the dry wood and it still says 99%. When I had it in the open next to my window it showed 65%.


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## Andrew Butler

Aqua Hero said:


> I've put it on the very top of the dry wood and it still says 99%. When I had it in the open next to my window it showed 65%


Just remember my DSM failed but that was quite probably down to the slopes being as steep so the front was saturated and the back dried out.
I was told Humidity so high was too much by a couple of people - @Tim Harrison and @foxfish are the people who seem to pop up the most with DSM questions but I know @Zeus. is also in on this one.
Just as an idea, if you are to dig a small well in the lowest point of your soil and it is saturated maybe removing some of that water with a syringe will stop the soil being saturated - this won't help with your moss on wood I know.

The wood will quickly dry out, the surface at least.
I've no idea if this would work at all but how about trying to cling film a small piece of branch where you have moss I don't think you've anything to lose by trying, other people might have opinion on this?


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## SRP3006

My dry start has been going for just over 9 weeks now. I too have used the blender moss method and it's has attached and started to grow on the rock I attached it too. However like you have experienced, the moss on the wood dried up and did not attach. (Well, I will see when I flood if it has attached) 

The rocks stay constantly damp whereas the wood is always dry, then again that's probably for the best to inhibit unsightly mould growth on damp wood. 

I have followed @Tim Harrison's dry start advice and the plants have excelled imho. Root growth that I would struggle to grow in a submersed state.


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## SRP3006

Forgot to add that my humidity has stayed between 75 and 85%.


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## Aqua Hero

I had to remove the stupid redmoor wood as it was building up green white and stringy mold on the surface. None of the other plants or rocks seem to be affected.

I've also decided to leave two vent holes while still doing 7 minute air time everyday.


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## Bon MotMot

Update? Have you flooded it yet?


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## Bon MotMot

I just flooded after a 46-day DSM that was successful.

Here is my species list  and how they fared:

Grew well:
Gratiola viscidula
Micranthemum 'Monte Carlo'
Staurogyne repens
Hydrocotyle tripartite
Marsilea angustifolia
Eleocharis parvula

Got established; didn't melt but didn't go crazy:
Helanthium tennellum
Lilaeopsis Mauritius

Mosses (yogurt method):
(these all established but did not grow like mad)
Spiky moss
Fissidens fontanus
Riccardia chamedryfolia

I think the mosses did not take off and spread because of the warmth (28 deg). I am fine with slow growth, as long as things are alive. I don't expect everything to do well in a low tech tank, but it is fun to try. I misted twice a day and aimed mostly at the taller branches; the floor stayed moist enough on its own. I sucked water out of the sand area from time to time. I kept the glass lid and saran wrap on for the entire 46 days. I did not have mold issues, but had all kinds of interesting fungi pop up here and there. In addition to the toadstool I had miniature shelf fungi and a couple of other types on the wood. Lighting was 12 hours a day at full power (Two Finnex 24/7 CC 48" (92 watts combined))


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