# Indian Almond (Catappa) Leaves in Community Tank



## jameson_uk (21 Jan 2017)

Just wondering on whether it it wise to experiment with catappa leaves in my tank.

How long will the tannins hang around for?   If I add leaves will it stain everything and be difficult to get back to normal or will it just leave the tank with the water changes?

The leaves are meant to drop pH (or by the sound of it make use of KH and make the water softer) which concerns me a little.   Any idea about what kind of drop we are talking about?   KH is only 4/5 here so concerned adding the leaves might lead to big pH swings.

Any issues with these leaves and fish (I guess mainly the corys)?

In terms of plants I am assuming that the main impact on them will be reduced light due to the tannins?   Is there anything else to consider?


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## three-fingers (21 Jan 2017)

Depends if you want to experiment with leaves, why are you thinking about it? Trying to change your water chemistry, or just like the look of leaves?  If you are trying to change your water chemistry, why? If you just like the look of leaves, I would recommend oak leaves instead as they are cheaper (free) and have less tannins, so won't stain the water or change your water chemistry as much.

Nobody else can tell how much it will affect your KH or pH, that's the part you will have to experiment with. It depends on the quality of leaves, how many leaves you add, your current water stats, water change frequency, etc. Too many variables for anybody to give you anything more than a total guess. pH swings are not an issue you should really be that concerned about in planted aquariums, this is a topic frequently discussed on these forums:

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/contemplating-co2.47797/#post-471775

Experiment with this if you are actually interested in learning the details of water chemistry, otherwise leave your water as it is and don't complicate things.  Your nerite snail wouldn't appreciate acidic water, it's shell would slowly melt and it would eventually die.

Fish and shrimp love leaf litter, you would be adding decomposing organics to your tank though, which will encourage bacteria and algae (good natural food) and possible raise CO2 concentration slightly depending on your water movement. Not a bad thing, but as you are also adding Excel, which kills a small amount of both algae and bacteria, you may want to rethink your aims and maintenance methods for this tank - they will cause no big issues, just your methods seem a little contradictory to me (assuming you are aiming for a healthy natural planted tank and don't care about some algae).

Tannins will reduce the light received by the plants slightly, but in this case it probably wouldn't help with algae reduction as you are adding rotting organics to the tank at the same time.

So basically, adding a couple of oak/ash or similar would benefit your livestock without affecting your water much. Catappa leaves are usually added specifically to adjust water parameters and I can think of no reason why you would want to do this.


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## jameson_uk (21 Jan 2017)

three-fingers said:


> Depends if you want to experiment with leaves, why are you thinking about it? Trying to change your water chemistry, or just like the look of leaves?  If you are trying to change your water chemistry, why? If you just like the look of leaves, I would recommend oak leaves instead as they are cheaper (free) and have less tannins, so won't stain the water or change your water chemistry as much.


I am probably going to add them to my shrimp tank (which is faring a lot better than the community tank) and whilst at LFS today I saw a tank with leaf litter and the corys in there looked very happy.   I have black neon tetras, otos and sterbai cory which I guess would fit into some sort of South American blackwater biotope;  my layout is not a bioscape by any means (and the dwarf rainbows and amanos certainly wouldn't fit in) but if it was to make the fish happier...

I had not considered other leaves.   I conveniently have an Oak tree in the garden....    Will do some research but is it fresh leaves or fallen ones you should use?



> Your nerite snail wouldn't appreciate acidic water, it's shell would slowly melt and it would eventually die.


I was just looking for an order of magnitude change.   My pH varies from 7.7 to 7.9 at the minute and was just wondering whether we are talking about a huge drop into acidic pH or whether it is a couple of points.



> Fish and shrimp love leaf litter, you would be adding decomposing organics to your tank though, which will encourage bacteria and algae (good natural food) and possible raise CO2 concentration slightly depending on your water movement. Not a bad thing, but as you are also adding Excel, which kills a small amount of both algae and bacteria, you may want to rethink your aims and maintenance methods for this tank - they will cause no big issues, just your methods seem a little contradictory to me (assuming you are aiming for a healthy natural planted tank and don't care about some algae).
> 
> Tannins will reduce the light received by the plants slightly, but in this case it probably wouldn't help with algae reduction as you are adding rotting organics to the tank at the same time.


I would prefer not to be adding the Excel but I have found that it helps with the algae due to the high lights (keeping BBA at bay rather than the green algae)



> Catappa leaves are usually added specifically to adjust water parameters and I can think of no reason why you would want to do this.


There was mention of anti-septic properties in these leaves which I guess is specific to them?


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## three-fingers (21 Jan 2017)

jameson_uk said:


> I had not considered other leaves.   I conveniently have an Oak tree in the garden....    Will do some research but is it fresh leaves or fallen ones you should use?


Fallen and dry ones .


> I was just looking for an order of magnitude change.   My pH varies from 7.7 to 7.9 at the minute and was just wondering whether we are talking about a huge drop into acidic pH or whether it is a couple of points.


Same as before, nobody can tell you. If you added catappa leaves, it could go down to pH 6 (no big deal), or it could just go slightly down to 7.5. Nobody can tell what will happen (other than the pH will drop) until you try. I would _guess_ if you just added a few oak leaves, it will probably stay above pH 7, adding more catappa leaves could bring it below 7.


> I would prefer not to be adding the Excel but I have found that it helps with the algae due to the high lights (keeping BBA at bay rather than the green algae)


Ah OK, so you _are _trying to kill algae with Excel. It can kill both types, as well as bacteria. Adding leaves will only mean you have more BBA due to the extra decaying organics. So if I were you I would try to get rid of the BBA using a permanent method (adjusting the environment) rather than regularly adding a broad spectrum biocide that will kill a small amount of all types of algae and bacteria only for them to grow right back because the environment is still good for them.There is nothing bad about BBA unless you don't like the look of it, it's just part of your tanks ecosystem, to reduce it, you would want to reduce light, and increase plant mass and do more water changes. You can add Excel if you like to, it won't cause any _visible _harm (other than possibly irritating your Amano shrimp), but you would see better results by just scrubbing/picking it off.

You seem to like the idea of a natural aquarium and can see the benefits for the livestock, but you are using techniques that are better suited to "aquascapers" who are trying to create a very specific clean aesthetic rather than a stable natural aquatic environment.



> There was mention of anti-septic properties in these leaves which I guess is specific to them?


Many tannin compounds from different types of leaves can have an anti-fungal and/or anti-bacterial effect, catappa leaves do contain a relatively large amount compared to many other leaves.  Why would you want to add something with anti-septic properties to your aquarium though? Do you have a problem with fin rot or some other illness? If not, the anti-septic properties are of no advantage to you, these properties are highly valued by _Betta_ breeders and breeders of other blackwater fish though. The reason it is valuable to them is that they often keep and breed their fish in filterless tanks, they use the tannins to keep the pH low so ammonia isn't toxic to the fish (in acidic water, most ammonia is in it's non-toxic ammonium form), and the antiseptic properties can stop infections in the otherwise poor water conditions.

I would recommend adding just a few oak leaves and stopping the Excel dosing. If you want to continue adding Excel to kill BBA, don't add any leaves as you would be defeating the purpose of adding Excel.

You could do both and there would be no big issue for your tank, you would be using methods that counteract each other IMO, which just complicates things for no reason.


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## Lindy (3 Feb 2017)

Oak leaves are pretty in a tank but alter chemistry and also break down relatively quickly. Beech leaves are a much better option if you don't want to change chemistry. They are a very attractive leaf in the tank and also take much longer to break down.

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