# Updating lighting advice



## SRP3006 (28 Oct 2019)

Hi all,
Tank has been running for a while under 3 Tmc grobeam 1500 tiles. The tiles are on 100% but can't get the colours to really pop on the plants. Also the colour plus version sends a few red beams into the tank which I'm really not a fan of.
So I'm after a led, that can punch down to 24inches and also help my plants colour up. I've been looking at the kessil 160we tuna sun and the prime hd freshwater. Both of which I think I will need 3. I am leaning towards the prime due to controllability. Has anyone got any views on these lights or any other lights for that matter? 

Tank is 48x24x24 hooded, but an open hood. Co2 injected and EI Dosing.

Thanks. 

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## Zeus. (28 Oct 2019)

Have four 160 tuna suns on my 500l and some T5s, the 160s lack the red output and are spot lights which can work well if going for an island like Scape and dimmable down to 10% intensity the spectrum output is mainly in the 6500K, but in the outer range of the spotlight the output soon falls off hence I fitted T5s around the perimeter.

I would go for ADA RGB Solaris if they was dimmable, seen them at Green Aqua and OMG, but not cheap but the colours 

Aquarium Gardens stock them too and also have a different make with Dave and Steve are impressive with but haven't been down to see it and also similar price I think!


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## SRP3006 (28 Oct 2019)

I have looked at kessils and TBH i think I need 3 above my tank. They are said to give a 24x24in spread (read 16x16in real terms I expect). I believe they would be a massive improvement on the TMCs.

I have looked at twinstar as they are highly recommended and can see plenty of aquascapes with them on but if I remember correct @Zeus u have a ND aquatics tank like me and i struggle to see how I'd fix a twinstar without it being a pita at water change time.

Due to the cost of the extra controller on the kessils compared to the primes having built in WiFi, I can't see many other differences between them. 

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## Zeus. (28 Oct 2019)

Yep ND Aquatics tank with open hood. Twinstars are good and controllable but compare but the ADA Solaris are in a different League and price bracket


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## SRP3006 (28 Oct 2019)

Gently floated the idea and price of these lights to the other half. No way I could push that boundary any further 

I have read quite a few reviews about these lights but always good to get someone's opinion.
It's also difficult to find any real par data for the kessils or AI prime, just so I can see how much of a increase I'll be gaining. 

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## Zeus. (28 Oct 2019)

I find it really annoying there's no PAR data  it would help even if it was just done in air


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## SRP3006 (28 Oct 2019)

Zeus. said:


> I find it really annoying there's no PAR data  it would help even if it was just done in air


Exactly, that way we could easily compare different fixtures. 

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## Craig Hill (28 Oct 2019)

i have a prime on my new scape, its not done yet so cant give any advice, but ive got 4 prime HD over my reef tank and they are proven to work, they really arent that well known or used in freshwater tanks, but in saltwater tanks they are highly regarded.


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## SRP3006 (28 Oct 2019)

Craig Hill said:


> i have a prime on my new scape, its not done yet so cant give any advice, but ive got 4 prime HD over my reef tank and they are proven to work, they really arent that well known or used in freshwater tanks, but in saltwater tanks they are highly regarded.


How do you find the app/controls? It's reported to be buggy. 

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## Craig Hill (28 Oct 2019)

SRP3006 said:


> How do you find the app/controls? It's reported to be buggy.
> 
> Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk



its great imo, i have only had one negative experience with it, i started with 3 lights, running one parent/2 child, and adding a 3rd child was a pain, i ended up having to factory reset all the lights then adding all the lights together, it wouldnt add another child onto an existing parent/child set up.

I also run 2 nero 5 wavemakers off the my AI app with no issues also.


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## SRP3006 (28 Oct 2019)

Thanks, just looked up the nero 5. Very nice bit of kit 

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## SRP3006 (29 Oct 2019)

Has anyone on here used the prime for freshwater?
Or used a twinstar on a hooded tank? (without suspending) 

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## jaypeecee (6 Nov 2019)

Hi Folks,

I haven't looked at these in detail, but I thought they were interesting:

https://orphek.com/or-120-bar-led-light-freshwater-planted/

https://www.aquariumcomputer.com/products/ghl-illumination/mitras-lightbar-2/

Why on earth these companies fail to give PAR values is disappointing. But it's worth asking the question.

JPC


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## alto (7 Nov 2019)

SRP3006 said:


> difficult to find any real par data for the kessils or AI prime





Zeus. said:


> I find it really annoying there's no PAR data  it would help even if it was just done in air


Sanjay Joshi did test and publish PAR data for Kessil and AI Primes (FW and Marine versions), at some point Kessil requested the data be removed for the same reasons that Giesemann gives (Kessil data had been up for a couple years at that point , I don’t know if the Giesemann light data was also removed)

(FWIW these studies did influence my choice of Kessil over AI Prime, I expect the _newish_ AI Prime HD should out-PAR the Kessil A160 ... at the time, Kessil was significantly more efficient re watt vs PAR, Kessil maintains intensity as spectrum is tuned - you can find online interviews from Kessil re why they do what they do)

This article was supported by Orphek - data was collected by Dr Sanjay Joshi, you may still be able to find the experimental data over at Advanced Aquarist, after the site shutdown for maintenance (rumoured hack but I’ve no idea) I couldn’t find many of the Light Analysis articles which he’s been doing for years following the developments of T5’s, HOT5, PC, MH, LED ... most of his work was done with Marine type lighting, and some FW versions when available

https://orphek.com/par-test-atlantik-wifi-reef-led-series-by-dr-sanjay/

The graphs give you an idea of lighting intensity and distribution


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## alto (7 Nov 2019)

SRP3006 said:


> I've been looking at the kessil 160we tuna sun and the prime hd freshwater


I’d recommend the Kessil 360X - “better” spectrum than the 160/360 series (which in turn had improved upon the A150/360’s) and 2 360X would deliver significantly better substrate PAR than 3 A160 
Contact Scaped Nature, Aquarium Gardens, Riverwood Aquatics (and various lfs) - I don’t recall which shop had both A160 and 360X on display tanks 

Look at what’s available locally


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## SRP3006 (7 Nov 2019)

Thanks guys, some serious light detail/information that I will need to read several times to let it sink in. 

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## Siege (7 Nov 2019)

@SRP3006  Personally I’d go with the Twinstar 1200 SA. A lot of light for the money. Half the price of 2 X Kessil and arguably a nicer light.

People do use them under a hood also. Either with arms removed (they slot out) or with the arms shortened/amended so they stand on the bracing.

Like Zeus says the next step up is only Maxlight or ADA Solar RGB but the cost increases massively.


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## SRP3006 (7 Nov 2019)

alto said:


> I’d recommend the Kessil 360X - “better” spectrum than the 160/360 series (which in turn had improved upon the A150/360’s) and 2 360X would deliver significantly better substrate PAR than 3 A160
> Contact Scaped Nature, Aquarium Gardens, Riverwood Aquatics (and various lfs) - I don’t recall which shop had both A160 and 360X on display tanks
> 
> Look at what’s available locally


That's a hefty price tag after buying the extra add on controller, is the extra worth it compared to a prime hd? Just curious to be honest. Without any real data on the lights its hard to compare one to one with statistics. 

Also would 2 360x's give me enough coverage on my footprint, ie not shaded areas?


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## Siege (7 Nov 2019)

2 would cover it but you are always going to get shaded areas with kessil, shadows is kinda their point if that makes sense. You also gotta like that shimmer.......!

Depending on where you are may be worth visiting Aquarium Gardens to look at the lights in real life.


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## SRP3006 (7 Nov 2019)

Siege said:


> @SRP3006  Personally I’d go with the Twinstar 1200 SA. A lot of light for the money. Half the price of 2 X Kessil and arguably a nicer light.
> 
> People do use them under a hood also. Either with arms removed (they slot out) or with the arms shortened/amended so they stand on the bracing.
> 
> Like Zeus says the next step up is only Maxlight or ADA Solar RGB but the cost increases massively.



I have a nd aquatics hood, I don't use the cover as it's a pita. But the hood needs to come off for water changes and substrate depth trimming etc, as the 2ft depth makes it hard work.
Im not great at DIY at all and I struggle to see how I would attach the light without it being a nightmare when I need to remove the hood.

I'm trying to persuade the boss that suspending from the ceiling would be very 'modern' but it's not working  especially on the 'yo yo' wire cables I've seen on Jurijs Jutjajevs' you tube channel.

Also does the twinstar have the power to supply decent strength light to 2ft down, as most squaping tanks are shallower.

But I do like the look of the twinstar and the price tag is a lot better, also they are used by a lot of pro Aquascapers.

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## SRP3006 (7 Nov 2019)

Siege said:


> 2 would cover it but you are always going to get shaded areas with kessil, shadows is kinda their point if that makes sense. You also gotta like that shimmer.......!
> 
> Depending on where you are may be worth visiting Aquarium Gardens to look at the lights in real life.


I wish, however being in Somerset its a bit of a drive and quite a cost in fuel. Shame really as there are not many great places around here (that I have found) 

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## SRP3006 (7 Nov 2019)

Siege said:


> @SRP3006
> 
> or with the arms shortened/amended so they stand on the bracing.



That could work as it could be inside the hood itself, just above the water, it also wouldn't effect me removing the hood. 

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## Siege (7 Nov 2019)

SRP3006 said:


> I have a nd aquatics hood, I don't use the cover as it's a pita. But the hood needs to come off for water changes and substrate depth trimming etc, as the 2ft depth makes it hard work.
> Im not great at DIY at all and I struggle to see how I would attach the light without it being a nightmare when I need to remove the hood.
> 
> I'm trying to persuade the boss that suspending from the ceiling would be very 'modern' but it's not working
> ...




Most lights are going to struggle to grow a mini hair grass carpet at 2’ but the Twinstar gives you best bang for buck imo.

Check out GF AG shop tour, you’ll see lots of Twinstars, also a hooded tank with 1200 light on.

You can rest the light on the glass bracing or cut the arms and rest them on the glass.


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## SRP3006 (7 Nov 2019)

Siege said:


> Most lights are going to struggle to grow a mini hair grass carpet at 2’ but the Twinstar gives you best bang for buck imo.



TBH I don't want to grow a carpet at the moment, I just don't want my light choices to limit the plants I can grow. Especially red plants and certain stem plants. 

Also the red spot beams coming from my leds really irritate me. 


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## SRP3006 (7 Nov 2019)

Thanks for the videos, very inspiring and some absolutely stunning scapes and plants. Something to aspire to for sure. 

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## alto (8 Nov 2019)

For carpet growth in taller tanks, cluster matrix LEDs (Kessil, AI etc) will deliver the required substrate intensity (as will good quality HOT5/ VHOT5 with decent reflectors ... though if you want dimmable, these require a significant budget as well)

Looking at Twinstar - even the S is mostly displayed on 45-50cm tall tanks 

While you could buy a light now for future plans, in a few years there may be new exciting lights you’ll like much better 


I don’t know that the 360X is reasonable - I’m in Canada where US exchange and new government taxes (on aquarium gear) have pretty much decided me against the investment 
I also feel that Kessil should’ve been more considered in their wifi “dongle” pricing after charging a premium on the promised wifi programmable X series - especially as initial marketing implied that wifi accessibility would be built into the light unit 

I recently picked up the ONF Flat Nano + and love the colour rendition 
(I find Twinstar S too red biased and greens are yellow hued, obviously this compromise doesn’t overly impact their sales  and supposedly there’s a new generation S )

When lights such as Kessil are said to produce “shadows” (vs the linear array LEDs like Twinstar) this is not quite the same as “shaded areas” - carpet etc plants will grow as uniformly under Kessil type lights as Twinstar style
If you look at those light distribution curves (Sanjay Joshi materials & method follows “good” science protocols), similar light patterns are observed with all light sources, with curve shape reflecting light design


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## jaypeecee (8 Nov 2019)

alto said:


> Sanjay Joshi did test and publish PAR data for Kessil and AI Primes (FW and Marine versions), at some point Kessil requested the data be removed for the same reasons that Giesemann gives (Kessil data had been up for a couple years at that point , I don’t know if the Giesemann light data was also removed)
> 
> This article was supported by Orphek - data was collected by Dr Sanjay Joshi, you may still be able to find the experimental data over at Advanced Aquarist, after the site shutdown for maintenance (rumoured hack but I’ve no idea) I couldn’t find many of the Light Analysis articles which he’s been doing for years following the developments of T5’s, HOT5, PC, MH, LED ... most of his work was done with Marine type lighting, and some FW versions when available
> 
> ...



Hi @alto 

Thanks for the Orphek link.

I wonder why neither Kessil nor Giesemann were happy about having their PAR data published? Something not right there.

JPC


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## alto (8 Nov 2019)

jaypeecee said:


> Something not right there.


No, their reasons are valid ... I listened to the interview (Kessil), read Giesemann position 
(I won’t paraphrase as it’s been awhile, but it’s logical/technical ... it’s just so darned convenient to be able to look at numbers )


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## jaypeecee (8 Nov 2019)

alto said:


> No, their reasons are valid ... I listened to the interview (Kessil), read Giesemann position
> (I won’t paraphrase as it’s been awhile, but it’s logical/technical ... it’s just so darned convenient to be able to look at numbers )



Hi @alto 

If Sanjay Joshi (or anyone else) carried out an independent set of PAR measurements, why should the manufacturers object? It's no different from anyone else reviewing any other product. It happens all the time. Don't we all refer to reviews if we want to buy a new mobile phone or laptop, for example? I'm obviously missing something.

JPC


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## alto (9 Nov 2019)

Kessil asked politely (and explained their position)
Dr Sanjay cooperated

(there may be a back story ... it may also be that, today, Kessil would take a different view)


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