# Auto dry salt dosing, possible with this?



## LondonDragon (4 Aug 2008)

Was thinking about one of these to dose my dry ferts automatically, any thoughts? 
Anyone uses something similar???






Thanks


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## Superman (4 Aug 2008)

My impression of automatic feeders is that they could always malfunction and dump it in all in one go.


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## ceg4048 (5 Aug 2008)

Well I guess anything can malfunction, but you also have the problem of humidity which makes some powders clog up, but in a pinch they work such as when you have to go away on holiday.  :idea: Worth trying if they are cheap enough and have well sealed chambers...

Cheers,


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## LondonDragon (5 Aug 2008)

Think I might get one of these if I can get it cheap enough and try it just on a bowl for a few days and see if it works fine.
Then do a test run on the tank and see if the chambers get humid/wet. Might be usefull to find out, would be ideal for all that dose dry salts straight into the tank.


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## Dan Crawford (5 Aug 2008)

Thats a great idea pal, can't beleive it hasn't been mention before.
The only issue i can see is the amount of ferts that you can fit in the little compartments, looks kinda small? Mind you it's been so long since i dosed dry ferts directly to the tank i can't remember how how bigger vessel you'd need.


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## Ed Seeley (5 Aug 2008)

I've got that very feeder for 1 tank at school and one of the rotating drum kind for the other.  They both have a fitting for an airline and this is definitely a good idea to use or the food clogs, never mind dry powders.  They other problem with the Fish Mate feeder is it works by moving the ring with the compartments in around and that ring simply rests on plastic base.  Some of the powders will creep underneath.  I'm trying to think how you could solve that but no ideas yet...
It is a good feeder, especially for feeding fry as you can set it to give four feeds a day.  Mine's been working for over two years with no problems.


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## Matt Holbrook-Bull (5 Aug 2008)

how about putting the powders in tiny PVC bags? all you fisherman will know what I mean.  would be easy to make them up

On hitting the water, the PVC bag will disolve into an inert nothing, leaving the powder perfectly packaged.

the only thing would be the humidity melting the baggies prematurley.



there is another way though.. you could always just make a liquid stock solution and use those little pumps that AGA reported on in one of their 06 journals.  Might be better doing that anyway.. you could have a constant feeding system setup.. would be much better for the plants than dumping it in bi-daily.


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## LondonDragon (5 Aug 2008)

Just purchased one of these for Â£12 so going to give it a try, going to place it above the luminaire so it says warm and dry during the day at least, and will report back on any findings.
I though about the liquid dosers and have been watching a few on ebay, but that means I would have to make a liquid solution and I can't really be bothered with that.


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## planter (5 Aug 2008)

Matt Holbrook-Bull said:
			
		

> how about putting the powders in tiny PVC bags? all you fisherman will know what I mean.  would be easy to make them up
> 
> On hitting the water, the PVC bag will disolve into an inert nothing, leaving the powder perfectly packaged.
> 
> the only thing would be the humidity melting the baggies prematurley.



Ha ha    you know the same thing crossed my mind Matt! You mean PVA bags mate ... think these would be mega agro tying up tiny PVA bags lol. And if youve ever tried tying these things up in the rain you will know that one drop and of water and its game over lol. Whilst thinking about PVA fert bags It also crossed my mind to use EI capsules. Theres definatley a product in the making here ! colour coded capsules in a foil wrapper marked Mon - Sun (sound familiar?).
You could even load the capsules into your auto feeder LD! Making up the capsules could be more greif than its worth though? Interesting stuff.


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## LondonDragon (5 Aug 2008)

planter said:
			
		

> Whilst thinking about PVA fert bags It also crossed my mind to use EI capsules. Theres definatley a product in the making here ! colour coded capsules in a foil wrapper marked Mon - Sun (sound familiar?).
> You could even load the capsules into your auto feeder LD! Making up the capsules could be more greif than its worth though? Interesting stuff.


I like that idea, and a quick search on ebay (where else) I came across these:  http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/5-000-Empty-VEGET ... .m14.l1318

And these hold 1gram: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Gelatin-Capsules- ... m153.l1262

Could it work?


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## planter (5 Aug 2008)

Remember where you heard it first!!!


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## LondonDragon (5 Aug 2008)

planter said:
			
		

> Remember where you heard it first!!!


haha we could work out a deal, and sell these EI capsules, rather than dosing by tea spoons and grams, dose by capsules lol

Thing is what if a fish eats the capsule???


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## Ed Seeley (5 Aug 2008)

Matt Holbrook-Bull said:
			
		

> how about putting the powders in tiny PVC bags? all you fisherman will know what I mean.  would be easy to make them up
> 
> On hitting the water, the PVC bag will disolve into an inert nothing, leaving the powder perfectly packaged.
> 
> ...



PV*A* Matt!  PVC would just sit there on the water!   

Good idea!

Edit:  Sorry Planter, just read your post!


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## planter (5 Aug 2008)

LondonDragon said:
			
		

> planter said:
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It would have to be a big fish to eat the capsule !!! I suppose a plec or an otto might latch onto it though??  

Solution - put the capsule in a net hung in the tank


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## LondonDragon (5 Aug 2008)

planter said:
			
		

> Solution - put the capsule in a net hung in the tank


I could always drop it on the internal Juwel filter  now have to go and buy some empty capsules! lol this is going to be interesting!


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## aaronnorth (5 Aug 2008)

i am excited to see if it works!


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## Matt Holbrook-Bull (5 Aug 2008)

PVA! yes thats em!

I add about 12 grams of salts every time to my tank, so a 1 gram capsule would be a bit small, maybe they go bigger.. like horse tablets or something!


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## Ed Seeley (5 Aug 2008)

Matt Holbrook-Bull said:
			
		

> maybe they go bigger.. like horse tablets or something!



Or suppositories!!!


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## a1Matt (6 Aug 2008)

I tried dry dosing with an automatic feeder once for 3 weeks and here are my experiences...

I bought this one: http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/fish/tech ... ders/19512

the compartment trays aren't very big:  I can easily fill up 3 or 4 trays with one days worth of food and ferts.  Not a big deal, but worth considering when deciding which feeder to purchase and how long you are going to be away for.

humidity: so as not to get caught out by humidty I left my hood and cover glass open. This worked. Downside was the evaporation loss was quite high.

spillage:  If when filling up the trays you spill any powders (which I did repeatedly) they get between the trays and the feeder jams. Once jammed it doesn't spin around and release the food any more.

Unfortunately my feeder turned up the day before I went on holiday (even though I ordered it a month before, dont ask!). Given more time, I could have taken more care when filling.

I got one of my sisters to visit every few days and she manually rotated the feeder and lowered the tray releasing the ferts\food into the tank. She also topped the tank up to compensate for the evaporation loss. During this time the fish got fed half as much and I switched form full EI dosing to about 1/3. Also went from 50% weekly WC to none.

I came back to a healthy tank (some pin holes in large Amazons, no algae at all) and my sister enjoyed looking after it which was a bonus because I am way for 4 weeks this December


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## LondonDragon (6 Aug 2008)

Thanks for that Matt, I will probably use an airpump too for this experiment, so will keep you guys posted


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## LondonDragon (7 Aug 2008)

Received my feeder today, due to design won't be able to place the dry ferts in feeder straight, even for flakes I am sure it will get stuck, its good for granule/pellets though. I have ordered the empty capsules so when those arrive I will do a test run. I have placed the feeder in its final position just to see if it gets humid where it is.


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## LondonDragon (9 Aug 2008)

Received the capsules today, just waiting for the automatic filler that I managed to get for Â£2+postage! With the filler I can fill 50 capsules at a time with the fert I want, so makes it easier to fill in bulk and dose accordingly.

Tested one of the capsules today, they take about 5/6 hours to fully disolve, at least 3 hours before they will release the contents.

The testing with the Auto Feeder is going great, where its placed it doesn't get any humidity stays allways dry which is a good result, tomorrow I will test how much I can get into each capsule.

When I get the auto filler I will start a test from next weekend and then see how it goes. Would be nice to just fill the Auto Feeder with two weeks worth of ferts and food and just forget about it, and just dose the EasyCarbo every so often. I am looking for a auto dose pump for that too 

Will report back with some photos when I get everything organized and ready for testing.


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## Matt Holbrook-Bull (9 Aug 2008)

itll be dead nifty if this all works!  

are we happy with the dissolved capsule being in the tank? any idea whats in the shell?


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## LondonDragon (9 Aug 2008)

Matt Holbrook-Bull said:
			
		

> itll be dead nifty if this all works!
> are we happy with the dissolved capsule being in the tank? any idea whats in the shell?


It says "Gelatin" capsules, I assumed they are safe, any ideas??? thanks


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## Matt Holbrook-Bull (10 Aug 2008)

LondonDragon said:
			
		

> Matt Holbrook-Bull said:
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the only thing that bothers me is that gelatin is made from animal bone.. wonder what it will leech thats all.


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## LondonDragon (10 Aug 2008)

Matt Holbrook-Bull said:
			
		

> the only thing that bothers me is that gelatin is made from animal bone.. wonder what it will leech thats all.


Says that its Vegan approved, so must be a veggie alternative rather than bone.


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## Matt Holbrook-Bull (10 Aug 2008)

LondonDragon said:
			
		

> Matt Holbrook-Bull said:
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hmmms.. maybe its pectin based then.

well if its veggie then we have no worries.


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## LondonDragon (10 Aug 2008)

Matt Holbrook-Bull said:
			
		

> hmmms.. maybe its pectin based then.
> well if its veggie then we have no worries.


Same as these:  http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/200-Empty-Vegetar ... .m20.l1116

High Quality 100% Vegetable Source Empty Vegetarian Capsules - Approved by the Vegetarian Society.
Produced in the European Union by a leading capsule manufacturer.
Ingredients: Hydroxypropylmethyl Cellulose, Water


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## Superman (10 Aug 2008)

LD, the gadget guru.

Go go Gadget!


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## LondonDragon (11 Aug 2008)

Just tried measuring the amounts I can fit into the capsules:

MgS04 = 1.2 grams
KS04 = 1.2 grams
KP04 = 1.8 grams
KN03 = 1.5 grams
Trace = 1.1 grams

Now for the bad news, I just tried the feeder to see how many capsules I could fit in there, and I can't even fit one of these capsules into the feeder, the compartments are too small, guess its going back on ebay! lol

Well its still a good way to keep your ferts for a smalish tank, and just dose the amount of capusles you need per day, dose before you go to bed and they will be fully disolved in the morning 

Back to the drawing board!!! lol


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## Ed Seeley (12 Aug 2008)

Have you tried the feeder with the powders just in the compartments?  Might be worth a go to see what happens.


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## aaronnorth (12 Aug 2008)

oh well, the capsules are still a good idea, i am sure more people would try it as some are not confident with dosing the correct amount of powders.


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## Spider Pig (12 Aug 2008)

slightly off topic but are there any automated liquid feeders? I would have thought that this would be easier to do than a dry feeder and would also allow a more constant dose of fertiliser. I guess a simple method would be something like a drip that you see in hospitals.


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## LondonDragon (12 Aug 2008)

Spider Pig said:
			
		

> slightly off topic but are there any automated liquid feeders? I would have thought that this would be easier to do than a dry feeder and would also allow a more constant dose of fertiliser. I guess a simple method would be something like a drip that you see in hospitals.



There are, but they cost a fortune thats all! lol


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## ceg4048 (12 Aug 2008)

Paulo,
          Barr suggests using a hospital Intravenous Unit (IV) using a liquid fert mix. This is such an obvious and brilliant solution. No timers, no electricity.. Drip feed, so you only have to resolve the drip rate. The only problem is coming up with a plan to liberate an oppressed IV unit from the clutches of a the repressive regime of a local hospital...  

Cheers,


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## LondonDragon (12 Aug 2008)

Clive getting hold of one won't be easy I guess, but I am sure one can be made from a plastic bottle and tubbing!


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## Spider Pig (13 Aug 2008)

An easy diy job would be a drinks bottle with a hole in the top and the tubing coming out of the bottom, after all that's all IV sets are. The main problem would be getting an accurate drop checker and fine tuning the rate. If you want to be really simple about it you could get a small clamp and tune it to the required daily output, and then put it just above the water so you can see the drops going in. 
Another way would be to have a drinks bottle with two tubes coming out of the top. One long, down to the tank, the other short. The short one would have the clamp and would regulate air going into the bottle, and so rate. You would still have to tune it as the bubble rate won't necessarily be proportionate to the flow rate, but you would be able to see that it's working from the bubble rate.

Hmmm...may well consider this in the future but no where to hang it at the moment.

If you want an IV you can always wait for these places to start turning up:
http://dvice.com/archives/2008/05/iv_drip_cafes_e.php


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## zig (14 Aug 2008)

Lots of information on this subject over on the planted tank forum if you do a search, one of the mods(whose name I forget, sorry! ) did a lot of testing on various devices to make this work, some pretty extensive research was done on this. Nearly sure there is a sticky in one of the sections over there about this if anyone is interested, probably DIY or equipment forum or something like that.


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## Spider Pig (15 Aug 2008)

Found the link:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/equip ... thods.html

Looked at the kent aquadose- basically an IV giving set with a bottle. If you can get the giving set separately then you can easily set it up with a drinks bottle. Still need to calibrate the output though.


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## Garuf (15 Aug 2008)

Zig the moderator you're thinking of is "wasserpest" he's still developing things as we speak but peralistic pumps (what ever they are) seem to be the safest bet from what I've read.


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## zig (15 Aug 2008)

wasserpest thats the man alright.

Peralistic pumps are used in hospitals for dosing medication through drips and stuff, you can pick them up off ebay if you want to try a DIY approach.


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## Garuf (15 Aug 2008)

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/equip ... thods.html
TA DA!


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## LondonDragon (15 Aug 2008)

Thanks for the info guys  and repost by Garuf 

The best auto dosing system for ferts I have seen is this guys  






Here is the link to his journal! 

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/photo ... 120-p.html

Great scape too


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## Garuf (15 Aug 2008)

The mad scientist one? I seem to remember reading it had a massive fail in the end I could be wrong though.
I think the biggest problem with the dosing systems are A)hiding them from view B) ensuring they reliably add the same amount of ferts everyday and the of course spiralling costs. The most elegant seems to be the small water pump method which I can see being a saviour while going on holiday but it is impossible to use it inline so it is another pipe going to the tank.


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## Spider Pig (15 Aug 2008)

Peristaltic pumps look good but not cheap. Still think the gravity fed version would be the cheapest if it can be tuned to deliver only 10ml/ day. You could tidy it up by setting it up to inject into the outflow of your external filter. Might require a bit of bodging though.


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## LondonDragon (15 Aug 2008)

I have a few ideas that I am going to try out, if any of them work I will report back, thanks guys for the feedback.


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## beeky (20 Aug 2008)

Joined this a bit late but I was thinking of peristaltic pumps too. They work by a wheel (or two) squeezing the tube which pushes the liquid forward. If you remember your school biology, peristalsis is the way your throat works when you swallow.

They're often used to feed plankton/phytoplankton regularly in marine tanks. The only problem is that because they apply pressure on the tube eventually the tube wears out and splits. Not sure how long this takes to happen though.


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## a1Matt (20 Aug 2008)

beeky said:
			
		

> Joined this a bit late but I was thinking of peristaltic pumps too. They work by a wheel (or two) squeezing the tube which pushes the liquid forward. If you remember your school biology, peristalsis is the way your throat works when you swallow.



Better late than never Beeky   

Interesting, I had wondered how they worked.(My school was not the greatest, they never taught me that!).

I might also experiment with this in the future, am in no hurry for now though.

The first step would be making up my own solution of DIY ferts and seeing if the ingredients in the solution settle over time.  If they do it would make it harder to get consistent dosing.

For now I will just wait and see what LD comes up with


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## LondonDragon (20 Aug 2008)

a1Matt said:
			
		

> The first step would be making up my own solution of DIY ferts and seeing if the ingredients in the solution settle over time.  If they do it would make it harder to get consistent dosing.
> For now I will just wait and see what LD comes up with


I was thinking that too, but thats an easy one to solve, get an air pump into the container and pump some bubbles into it before you dose to mix the formula, you could put in a one way valve if you want the container sealed off  or go for the extreme and get a magnetic stirrer.


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## a1Matt (20 Aug 2008)

LondonDragon said:
			
		

> I was thinking that too, but thats an easy one to solve, get an air pump into the container and pump some bubbles into it before you dose to mix the formula, you could put in a one way valve if you want the container sealed off  or go for the extreme and get a magnetic stirrer.



I like your style!

http://www.hannainst.co.uk/acatalog/HI_ ... irrer.html


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## Garuf (26 Aug 2008)

http://www.stm-shop.co.uk/acatalog/Onli ... mps_7.html
This could be of use, cheapest price I could find.


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## LondonDragon (26 Jan 2009)

Just purchased one of these:

AquaMedic Dosing Pump SP3000




For Â£30 wasn't bad, now will have to make an all in one solution to dose my ferts.
But before will have to run a few tests and also will have to buy a timer that can measure seconds.

Automation is the way


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## zed (27 Jan 2009)

I'd be interested in  hearing how you get on with the pump. Â£30 is a good price, do you mind me asking which store you got it from?

Thanks


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## BINKSY1973 (28 Jan 2009)

Hi,

        This may be of use to you, i have found a timer that can be set from 1 second to 100 seconds and will repeat every 24 hours. Slight down side is it requires a 12v supply, but will switch a 240v load.

http://www.quasarelectronics.com/ci0051.htm

Cheers Gordon.


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## LondonDragon (28 Jan 2009)

zed said:
			
		

> I'd be interested in  hearing how you get on with the pump. Â£30 is a good price, do you mind me asking which store you got it from?
> Thanks


Ebay as usual 



			
				BINKSY1973 said:
			
		

> Hi,
> This may be of use to you, i have found a timer that can be set from 1 second to 100 seconds and will repeat every 24 hours. Slight down side is it requires a 12v supply, but will switch a 240v load.
> http://www.quasarelectronics.com/ci0051.htm
> Cheers Gordon.


I will have a look into it, thanks Gordon, but a minute digital timer is not that expensive, the pump is rates at 3l per hout which is 50ml per minute, just have to work out the amout of dry salts required for a 2 liter bottle and then set to dose 1 minute per day. Guess I will need some help with the quantities.


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## BINKSY1973 (28 Jan 2009)

LondonDragon said:
			
		

> but a minute digital timer is not that expensive, the pump is rates at 3l per hout which is 50ml per minute



Fair enough, i will be watching with interest as im waiting for some dry ferts (hopefully will arrive tomorrow) to make up the all in one solution. And i can be away sometimes in the week with work so can be a right pain at times.

Cheers Gordon.


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## LondonDragon (17 Feb 2009)

For those interested in autodosing have a look at this thread: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4596


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