# DIY Twinstar thoughts?



## TooFunky

Hi guys, I've been a long time follower of this forum. 
And recently I've been tasked with building a DIY Twinstar. 
Just wondering what your thoughts are on the twinstars in general. 
No doubt someone is going to say with regular tank maintenance you shouldn't need one so let's skip that bit and look beyond it. 
Some people can't help getting build ups and blooms, be it bad lighting, tank location or otherwise. 

All the Twinstars are, are electrolysis machines, with a fancy box that's a power supply and timer. 

I've recently joined a Indonesian Facebook page and these guys are making them from bit of stainless mesh and phone chargers. Someone even made one from 2 spoons.... 

So I'd like to here your opinions on the process and if you think it's effective against algae. 

Here are some pics from the Indonesians Facebook group. 

I look forward to hearing your input guys.


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## OllieNZ

I'd like to have a go at a diy one, any more info on how to? The last unit looks pretty slick. Are they as effective as the real thing?


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## Tim Harrison

Check these threads out...
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/twinstar-diy.33881/#post-361791
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/twinstar-diy.31820/


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## TooFunky

The real ones use expensive metals as mesh with the sounds of it. 
But from random topics I've found they seem to wear out faster and people were saying that spare mesh is hard to come by. 

Seems easier to get a sheet of stainless mesh off ebay and cut it to size. But I'm not sure if it's safe to use stainless as I've heard that some blends can give off harmful by products. 

The Indonesians are using plastic drainpipes as the holders, and spacers between the 2 electrodes. I agree, they do look pretty good for a diy product. 

It looks easy to make, one mesh is positive and the other negative. 
The electrolysis creates hydrogen and oxygen micro bubbles. They are run on a timer.


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## TooFunky

Thanks Tori, I found the second one but it seems to have died. 
The first link is interesting though. Using magnesium to prolong the life of the other electrode.


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## Greenfinger2

Hi TooFunky, Thank you for sharing  What a super idea for a diy project


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## kirk

A well maintained tank blah blah blah.,correct light levels blah blah. 
Joking aside, I been thinking of this but couldn't afford to buy one to cannibalise  good idea, and I'm goung to have a go, my shed is full of old tat wire etc, if it helps a bit and has cost pence to make let's get some knocked up, most of us must have at least one old phone charger kicking around.  I like the one made from the florescent starter.Great thread cheers.   If it doesn't work on the tank algae maybe we can cheaply get rid of unwanted hair,not that I'm hairy or anything.


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## TooFunky

Well guys, the Indonesians have escalated things.... 

Old fly zapper. Maybe a bit over kill though 





3D printed parts. 






Glad people are in board with this. I'm going to have a look on ebay later to see if I can get stainless mesh. I think this will give a better reaction because of the surface area. 

You can get electronic timers that do minute intervals too.


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## kirk

Cannot remember the seller but I was buying a4 sized Ss mesh marine grade very cheap on the bay. I think there may be a thread somewhere here. That racket is plain nasty I'd rather look at the algae.   Come on then own up. Who has a 3d printer on here.?


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## TooFunky

I agree that racket is nasty.
Bet I gets a right boil on when it's running hahaha.


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## Greenfinger2

Hi All,You Can buy the stainless  mesh at B&Q  Ho and no i have not got a 3D printer


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## Andy Thurston

No but this man does
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/3d-printed-co2-diffuser.34126/


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## r32syd

Hello this is interesting and will be happy to help. By the looks of the pictures the printed parts should be east to produce. Im not sure i fully underetand how the device works but if we cab decide on a design/size we would like to replicate i would be more than happy to have a go printing the parts. Thanks.Andy


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## Greenfinger2

Hi All, quick Q The power comes from a phone charger. Input   240v output  12v -2Amp ?? On the ones i have it says Input 240 v Output  12A but the last bit is 200 mA
is this ok  As i want to make a twinstar  but don't want to blow the house up The Wife will never forgive me http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/twinstar-diy.31820/
Info from  Clone Great thread


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## TooFunky

Should be fine Greebfingers. 
200ma is less than 2A.
Some of the indo guys have Got results from as little as 150ma.
I'd be more worried about the fish getting zapped than the house 

Thanks for the offer R32syd.
Whats the best thing you've printed so far?


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## Marcel G

We already tested the Twinstar using oscilloscope also. You can look at the results here: www.prirodni-akvarium.cz (it's Czech site, so use Google Translate).
I would like to emphasize that the original Twinstar uses titanium mesh coated with _*platinum*_, which is the main difference over the DIY versions. If I would do electrolysis in my tank, I would never use anything else then platinum, as normal metals produce undesired byproducts.


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## kirk

List so far.  1). 3d printer. 2). South African miner. This is getting more expensive than a twinstar.


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## ian_m

Not convinced the DIY people are getting 100% right after reading the Czech site. Though who knows what "right" is.

1. The Twinstar mesh is most likely platinum coated titanium. This is freely available in industry as a catalyst. http://www.goodfellow.com/catalogue...3NFidMkb18CI&n=mycpXcVljszEkNeraMX5ESMiJM3MT7. Issue here is £330 for 100mm x 100m piece.

2. Can't see any reason stainless mesh can't be used, the patents on electrolysis of sewerage and dirty water, I have seen, use replaceable stainless meshes.

3. The voltage applied needs to be AC or at least DC then reversed DC. Again some of the patents refer to passing DC, then passing pulsed DC in reverse (the pulsed bit is something to do with electrode protection ?). The amount of current needs to be controlled to cope with different water conditions.


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## clonitza

Yey bubbles!
So, last year people wasted their time with diy led lamps, this year with twinstar copies, I'm wondering what's next ... 
Snake oil alert: IMHO this piece of crap falls into the undergravel heaters and alike category, fancy but totally useless.


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## OllieNZ

ian_m said:


> 3. The voltage applied needs to be AC or at least DC then reversed DC. Again some of the patents refer to passing DC, then passing pulsed DC in reverse (the pulsed bit is something to do with electrode protection ?). The amount of current needs to be controlled to cope with different water conditions.


This will alternate which electrode is the anode/cathode theoretically extending their life. Given the low cost of the stainless I doubt many are bothered about this.


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## Mr. Teapot

Why would a company wanting to make as much margin as possible use a hugely expensive and rare material like Platinum coated titanium mesh? The extended life would be marginal and would make zero commercial sense - it would be far better for their balance sheet to sell you a new stainless steel disc for £10 every couple of months.

Personally, I don't believe the twinstar produces just hydrogen and oxygen.

http://www.technology.matthey.com/article/52/3/177-185/

The above link is about electrochemical water disinfection using platinum group metals in real world applications - I think Twinstar have just used this existing technology and adapted it to use in an aquarium… quite clever really.


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## ian_m

Reading the above has jogged my memory why you can't use stainless as it is attacked by chloride produced during electrolysis and contaminates the water, which is why titanium/platinum/rhenium etc is used. Also explains why current reversal is needed.

Maybe the Twinstar is actually producing chlorine compounds, in low doses in the water, which would certainly kill algae and pathogens, and if low enough have little effect on fish.


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## Marcel G

I agree with Mr. Teapot, that there is other stuff being produced during electrolysis besides H2 and O2.
Cl-, O3, and H2O2 being quite strong desinfectants they are able to kill algae (mainly unicellular ones). But other stuff is being produced also, as there are much more compounds in the water then simple H2O molecules (Mg++, Ca++, K+ ... NO3-, CO2-- etc. all these take part in electrolysis).


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## dw1305

Hi all, 
Supposedly it is the nano bubbles of oxygen that have the disinfectant effect. The reference is <"Principle and applications of microbubble and nanobubble technology for water treatment"> from <page 12.  of the "Twinstar.... what is it?"> thread.

The patent is here: <http://www.google.at/patents/US6689262?hl=de>.

cheers Darrel


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## Mr. Teapot

dw1305 said:


> nano bubbles of oxygen



Quick google: "MBs and NBs have been proven to be a new environmental friendly technique for oxidation of organic compounds, water disinfection and fouling control"

Cheers Darrel, that's a bit clearer now. Still doesn't make me want to buy one, but interesting all the same.


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## Greenfinger2

TooFunky said:


> Should be fine Greebfingers.
> 200ma is less than 2A.
> Some of the indo guys have Got results from as little as 150ma.
> I'd be more worried about the fish getting zapped than the house
> 
> Thanks for the offer R32syd.
> Whats the best thing you've printed so far?



Hi TooFunky, 
Thank You  

 I'd be more worried about the fish getting zapped than the house  I am going to try it in a bucket of water first.So no fish zapping


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## OllieNZ

When I get hold of some mesh I'm going to give this a go using different electrode spacing and a laboratory power supply to work out best voltage/current combo


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## OllieNZ

Also another interesting thing to note is that the article linked suggest that pgm electrodes are not the best choice for O2/O3 production but are well suited to the production of free chlorine from chloride. Now I'm not sure about others but I'm pretty sure the levels of chloride in my tank will be very low as it's non existent in my tap water and I don't add chloride salts of any description. Leaving the disinfection to be done by the oxidising compounds.


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## RossMartin

kirk said:


> List so far.  1). 3d printer. 2). South African miner. This is getting more expensive than a twinstar.


LOL! Brilliant!!!


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## r32syd

Hello Toofunky. I dont know about the best thing so far but i did print the bust of warmachine a few weeks ago. I could do the rest but not had time. 





There are some more examples on the other link. Sorry to side track from the subject. andy


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## HELIO FROTA

I AM BRAND NEW HERE

Could someone help me on the following:

Can it (TWINSTAR) be used in the Marine Water (Seawater or Saltwater)?
What is the effect in the DO in the Water? Does it increase? How much?
What is the effect in the ph of the water increase? decrease?
What is the effect in the others parameters like ammonia? nitrite? etc,
Can it be uses continuously (non stop) (keep it on in a big tank?)
What is the effect if we increase the voltage (V) and keep the current (Amp) constant?
What is the effect if we increase the current (Amp) and keep the voltage (V) constant?
What are the gás produced?
Is there any preciptated material?
What is the min and max voltage (V) recommended?
What is the min and max current (Amp) recommend?

Thanks


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