# new to planted tanks



## Jason Stanford (21 Aug 2013)

hi,

is it possible to have an overstocked aquarium, planted, co2, ferts etc.
lots of flow.

I have recently planted my overstocked piranha tank with vallis, got a jbl co2 kit. fets etc.

my co2 is nowhere near the green 20mg/l and my fish have been gasping 

any help please

I saw an article on here on a hi-tech setup but seemed to need lower stock levels. not possible to have overstocked and a jungle going on at the same time?


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## Jason Stanford (21 Aug 2013)

also I have 2x 12000lph wavemakers in the aquarium to provide flow to exercise the shoal of piranha. problem I have is the flow hits the wall of grass, and bounces back, it doesn't seem to flow through the grass, any ways to improve this? need a wavemaker both sides or something?

any help on the wavemaker positioning would be good

maybe if I made a riccia carpet cover the other half of the tank it would provide a lot more o2.

also now its summer with the amount of lighting I have the tank gets to 29-30 which is too hot, how do you keep it cool?

ill add pictures and details of the setup in a minute


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## Jason Stanford (21 Aug 2013)

this is copied from what I posted on a facebook group for advice earlier and a guy on there named this forum.

100 uk gallons, 
fluval fx5, and 
2x 12000lph wavemakers, 
so about 26,000lph turnover.
t5 lighting
480w lighting
additional items are the two 12000lph wavemaker/powerheads
ferts came with the jbl m602 co2 package. jbl ferropol, weekly and daily.
I have ordered ei, will be using that once this one runs out
substrate is gravel with no root tabs as of yet.
tank has been running a year
co2 method of diffusion is the jbl taifun with the extension.
I will order another diffuser that a guy recommended on here that goes on my fx5 pipe
lighting is on from 7am til 8pm daily, im unsure if this is too much, im guessing the amazon has a lot of hours of light in a single day.
my problem cant be circulation I think as its like a whirlpool in my tank lol

its stocked with 25 or so piranha, 6 convicts a big irwini catfish at 10", a tiny Raphael catfish, an l190 pleco about 5", a l330 watermelon plec about 8", hes huge. and 5 small bn plecs, I do have other tanks so can thin these out, but its worked nicely so far until I considered co2 and going down the proper planted route


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## tim (21 Aug 2013)

Hi Jason the jungle you wish to achieve should be possible, if you only have Vallis in the tank at the moment it's possible your adding more co2 than your plant mass can utilise, maybe back the co2 off a little or add more plants, pictures tell a thousand words, maybe post some up of your tank help members get an idea of the best advice to offer, ref flow all filter outlets power heads etc should point in the same direction creating a circular flow pattern to achieve the best results.


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## Jason Stanford (21 Aug 2013)

will do mate, thanks


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## Jason Stanford (21 Aug 2013)




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## Jason Stanford (21 Aug 2013)

I did have the vallis all the way across the tank but the flow just got stopped by it
and the powerheads were at the surface, also there was a lot more bogwood in the tank.
this isn't how its staying, just want to sort this co2 out etc at the moment, so the fish are happy.
I wont be doing much to the tank in ters of scaping at the moment as I am waiting for my new 6x3x2h to come. which will also be planted, same lights so will halve my wpg to 2.5


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## tim (21 Aug 2013)

Co2 application is difficult to get right, bear in mind lighting will always dictate how much your plants need BUT that may be much more than your livestock can handle. You've joined the right forum to get plenty of help along the way.


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## Pinkmummy79 (21 Aug 2013)

Hi Jason, welcome to the forum
You've begun the journey now and this is the place to be for help and friendly guidance along the way, hope you get things sorted mate.
Clive and Fran


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## Jason Stanford (22 Aug 2013)

will adding an air stone or 10 improve the o2 in the water but not remove the co2 like the wavemaker at the surface would do?
basically I turned off the co2, came home from work and the fish were still gasping, I know this is because the wavemakers aren't at the surface now. I want a fix that will still let me use the co2


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## sa80mark (22 Aug 2013)

Co2 is a balancing act that you have to adjust untill you reach the right balance, a few things to know first are, is your co2 a pressurised setup ? Does it have a solinoid ? What time does the co2 come on ? What time do your lights turn on ? Do you have a drop checker ?


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## Jason Stanford (22 Aug 2013)

I have a drop checker, and its blue not green and still the fish gasp, but I know its because the wavemakers aren't at the surface now because I turned off the co2 and they were still gasping today.
the co2 comes on with the lights at 7am, looking through a couple of posts here it seems most peoples co2 comes on a few hours before lights on and turns off a few hours before lights off?


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## Jason Stanford (22 Aug 2013)

its pressurised and solenoid


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## Jason Stanford (22 Aug 2013)

ok question.
the co2 isn't too much its still blue on the drop checker, hasn't even got to green yet ever.
the fish gasp.
to increase o2 until my plants provide enough should I place wavemakers at surface, or add air stones?
wavemakers at surface will remove the co2 from the water I heard. will the airstones?


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## foxfish (22 Aug 2013)

Something does not sound right here!
We need far more info on the Co2 system...
Consider that 95% of the issues on this forum revolve around not enough C02 but you say your fish are gasping, are they gasping at the surface?


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## Jason Stanford (22 Aug 2013)

I just turned lights off, came downstairs, and they were in the dark at the surface, I just put the lights back on to hopefully use some co2 up maybe? although it says there isn't a lot of co2 in my water now on the drop checker


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## Jason Stanford (22 Aug 2013)

its actually beginning to get frustrating 
can someone tell me the optimum light timings etc, and co2 timings please.
I bought a jbl m602 system, that's my co2 system. I bought it because of recommendations and reviews seemed good. I know people with the same co2 system and they are doing great, but most have small community fish, I have piranha plecs and catfish


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## Jason Stanford (22 Aug 2013)

wave maker height/positions too would be good,
also the vallis I have planted very densely on the left of the tank, it probably reduces flow. is this a problem?
the reason I did it is because it was all over the place when in front of the wavemakers


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## Jason Stanford (22 Aug 2013)

also do you use air pumps at all? through the night? just after lights go off? daytime also?
also im finding it very hard keeping my water cool, 29 now which means less o2 also


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## Michael W (22 Aug 2013)

In all honesty i think you should not worry about CO2 right now and focus what may be causing the fish to gasp at the surface. I think running an air stone may be a sound thing to do right now. Yes it will reduce CO2 levels but you want to give the fish some more oxygen right now since they're gasping. How often do you change the water? Your fish seems to be really stressed out.


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## Jason Stanford (22 Aug 2013)

I water change 2 times a week. the airstones are in now. tanks been running over a year, never had a problem ever. until I removed the wavemakers from the surface and put them lower in the tank. and the co2 went on, but I am eliminating the co2 as when I turned it off the gasping was still happening a day later, so its the wavemakers not disturbing the surface, which would be o2 levels.


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## Michael W (22 Aug 2013)

The temperature is definitely a problem along side the positioning of the wavemaker. Are there any ways for you to cool the water down?


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## Jason Stanford (22 Aug 2013)

not yet, will look into buying a fan for it. where should my wavemaker be? can I move it higher again or will this negate my co2?


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## Michael W (22 Aug 2013)

Having more surface agitation will give your fish more oxygen. It won't totally negate the  CO2 but will make it less effective.


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## tim (22 Aug 2013)

Move the wave makers back to the surface, also co2 should start at least two hours before the photoperiod to allow the plants to utilise it at lights on. You can have plenty of surface movement to increase O2 then add more co2 for the plants expensive but worth it for the comfort of your livestock.


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## Jason Stanford (22 Aug 2013)

thanks, ill do that, maybe once I fill my tank with plants it will provide more o2 and I can move the wavemakers away but for now ill do it like this.
im after riccia if anyone wants to sell me it, and frogbit, as the vallis doesn't need much light?  maybe I could have frogbit and vallis? does frogbit provide o2 in the water? I still think my fish would love it


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## Jason Stanford (22 Aug 2013)

theres no classifieds on this forum for people selling their plants? or wanting some?


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## Michael W (22 Aug 2013)

After 20 posts or is it 25? Either one you will unlock the access to the classifieds. You may have to wait a few minutes or an hour for you account to be updated with the new future. Have you considered having a low tech setup? It is highly possible to create jungle themed tanks without CO2 and it will also mean less work for you in terms of worring about gassing your fish. 

P.S here is a low tech tank, its worth reading through this Tom's Bucket O' Mud - new vid page 28 | UK Aquatic Plant Society


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## tim (22 Aug 2013)

Jason Stanford said:


> theres no classifieds on this forum for people selling their plants? or wanting some?


The for sale section becomes available after 25 posts or so ( all in the rules and guidelines forum ) 
I prefer to have some surface agitation it's better for my livestock IMO even though I use more co2.


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## tim (22 Aug 2013)

Gotta stop reading my mind Michael


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## Solex (22 Aug 2013)

Yes there is, i believe you need 50 post to see the wanted/forsale section.

Have a nice day!
Lexy


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## Michael W (22 Aug 2013)

tim said:


> Gotta stop reading my mind Michael


 

Great minds think alike


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## MirandaB (22 Aug 2013)

Have you tested the water in your tank lately? To be honest I would switch off the CO2 completely until your fish are no longer gasping at the surface,as Michael says you need to think about the fish first in this case,sorting the CO2 will wait.
Just wondering if maybe you have had a PH crash or ammonia spike.


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## squid102 (22 Aug 2013)

Going back to your earlier posts - 13 hours is an awfully long time to have your lights on. This will also contribute to your higher water temperatures. You might want to think about cranking that back to about 8 hours along with reducing the co2 accordingly.


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## Jason Stanford (23 Aug 2013)

I will adjust the light times now. I added the airstone last night and within 30 minutes everything wasn't gasping, so I know its o2 100% now.
this morning the lights are on and the wavemakers are at the surface with the co2 on, will see how it goes


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## squid102 (23 Aug 2013)

You don't think that your fish might have been hanging out at the surface to have a break from the flow do you? 

When you said you had 26,000 lph I though "OMG!" It also made me curious enough to go have have a look at some of the piranha forums to see what other piranha keepers were doing. Flow recommendations I saw on there were all about 10x to 20x, which would be right for the plants too. Your flow is nearly 60x. Are you sure that's not too much?


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## foxfish (23 Aug 2013)

foxfish said:


> Something does not sound right here!
> We need far more info on the Co2 system...
> Consider that 95% of the issues on this forum revolve around not enough C02 but you say your fish are gasping, are they gasping at the surface?


 Like I said something is not right!!
The chances of C02 effecting the fish with that amount of flow is not likely!!
What are you trying to achieve? why on earth are you using such a crazy amount of flow!
Perhaps you need to revise the tank a little, study the forum for info on how to grow plants & fit that info into keeping your fish happy!
6 hours of subdued light, 10 x flow & very carful addition of C02!!


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## MirandaB (23 Aug 2013)

As others have said you have way too much flow,this is like a Hillstream set up and none of the fish you have enjoy those sort of conditions.
With that sort of flow there is no way lack of O2 is the problem.
Not quite sure why you say the piranha need exercise and also they are by nature they are quite shy so prefer lower light "blackwater" type set ups to get the best from them.
As well as vastly reducing the lighting time I would raise the lights up further away from the surface which would also help with the temperature.


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## Jason Stanford (23 Aug 2013)

im not reducing the flow, pygocentrus gain fat and get out of shape, I have kept shoals and serrasalmus species, and wont be reducing the flow ever. with the wood and plants in there its not 26,000 hitiing them in the face anyway.
I have had low light black water setups, and I love them, I have also seen hitech plnted piranha aquariums and they are fine. I could add a canopy at one end or floating plant one end, they also have the grass to hide in. they have been fine up until now, the problem is the o2.
I moved the wavemakers to the surface last night, all today they are back to normal and aren't gasping.
they are actively swimming in the current again, which if they didn't want to be in the current they wouldn't be, theres a lot of ways in the tank to avoid it near enough completely.
piranha are found in anything from a puddle to white water rapids, they are adaptable and do well in near enough anything, same with salinity as well.
thanks for all the advice, today the co2 is on and the shoals fine, only difference is the wavemakers back at the surface.


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## Jason Stanford (23 Aug 2013)

squid I am on most piranha forums, I have seen a guy using the 24,000 lph in 3 foot tanks.with no problems, not planted of course though.
the flow is fine, I wish I could remove the water just as quick the other end though, to make it a river aquarium, next tank I will make some sort of river manifold


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## Jason Stanford (23 Aug 2013)

Miranda as you can see in the picture I moved the wavemakers quite low in the aquarium and the flow was okish, but the surface agitation was next to none


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## Michael W (23 Aug 2013)

Jason Stanford said:


> piranha are found in anything from a puddle to white water rapids, they are adaptable and do well in near enough anything, same with salinity as well. thanks for all the advice, today the co2 is on and the shoals fine, only difference is the wavemakers back at the surface.


 
Perhaps in the wild Piranhas could handle a lot of things thrown at them in the wild but you must remember an aquarium is anything but wild. Its like In the wild there are no filters because there is a constant current going through the river washing the waste to different areas etc You must remember the aquarium is a closed off space, having such a high flow in a contained area does no good, in the wild the fish can choose to go from area to area to escape from things like this. You say you have areas in the tank for the fish to go to in order to avoid your strong current and plants to lessen the current's impact on the fish which I don't think makes too much of a difference. Instead of worrying too much about your fish getting fat why not pay more attention to their diet, feeding the appropriate amount fasting the fish for a day etc. Having a good distribution of flow is good for plant growth as it delivers nutrients and CO2 but too much will cause mechanical damage to the plants which means they will have to invest in repairing themselves.


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## MirandaB (23 Aug 2013)

I still feel there is more to this problem than just the position of the wavemakers but that's just my opinion.
I'm newish to planted tanks myself and I don't know what you are wanting from your tank but I feel you may struggle to get what you want planting wise with that kind of flow


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## Jason Stanford (23 Aug 2013)

np will see how it goes I guess, ill get what I can from my setup.
just glad the fish are all ok now


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