# RO water please advice - brown algea-diatoma ?



## arty (25 Jun 2010)

Possibly i will go in this time not for new light but for RO unit and remineralize, my tap is high on silicates and possibly more other toxic compounds.

After i read info on James Planted tank about remineralization RO my question - why need so much dry salts ?
And i looking in internet some components is expensive and like pot. carbonate i did not found.

On James:
Calcium Chloride Dihydrate
Calcium Sulphate Dihydrate
Magnesium Sulphate Heptahydrate
Potassium Carbonate

How about other option what recommend self product saechem Equilibrium but only same recipe in diy and there all salts easily available ?

Look info from Their website:

"Why It's Different 

Unlike competing products, Equilibrium contains NO SODIUM CHLORIDE. Both sodium and chloride are not rapidly depleted elements in a planted aquarium, and, in the case of chloride, can do more harm than good. Competitorsâ€™ products generally contain primarily sodium chloride (because it is inexpensive), which will raise the electrolyte levels for fish, but can be detrimental to plant growth. In addition, sodium is not a contributing cation to GH levels. Equilibriumâ„¢ contains only calcium, magnesium, and potassium salts, which aid in fish metabolism, but are also highly beneficial to plant growth"

Guaranteed AnalysisSoluble Potassium (K20)	23.0%
Calcium (Ca)	8.06%
Magnesium (Mg)	2.41%
Soluble Iron (Fe)	0.11%
Soluble Manganese (Mn)	0.06%

Derived from: potassium sulfate, calcium sulfate, magnesium sulfate, ferric sulfate, manganese sulfate.

Elemental potassium is present at a concentration of 195,000 ppm (19.5%). Archaic fertilizer laws force us to list potassium in terms of equivalence to a material that is not present (K2O) rather
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That mean i can mix:
K2so4
+
Calcium Sulphate Dihydrate
+
MgSo4

and i apologise Fe and Mn plants can easily get from micro trace elements 

Right or not ? Please expert advice ?

Cheers
Arty


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## GHNelson (25 Jun 2010)

*Re: RO water please advice ?*

Hi arty
Whats your tap water parameters.
You don't need equilibrium just another expense,just cut your RO water with tap water.
hoggie


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## arty (25 Jun 2010)

*Re: RO water please advice ?*

I found 4 stage Ro for cheap price and think better option clean on 99%. Tap is high on silicates i clearly see from diatoma-brown algea, two months fight in new setup with different methods - no way.
And i clearly see from tap deposits. 
My tap approx. are 3-4dgh(last time when tested) and approx 7dkh(from chart, ph meter and drop checker), i have no tests on today, last time tested 3 months ago and all water parameters been different.
Last time tap water parameters changed every week , sometimes every day, i see from deposits and ph meter some day 7.5, some day 7.2, some 6.9 , 

I don't wanna equilibrum buy - expensive, but if that diy same recipe works then i need buy only calcium sulphate. All other dry salts i have.
Also if calculate my current tap saechem water conditioner cost on 400L tank, then Ro cartridges cost will be approx. same. And i hope membrane will last long - water is soft but full with shites and no Mg 

And i will try make cofee cup with RO water 
We don't drink tap water, always use mineral water in bottles.


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## ceg4048 (26 Jun 2010)

*Re: RO water please advice ?*

About the only good reason I can see for using RO is for the coffee/tea. This will not solve diatoms, and that's a certainty.

If you want a cheap way of remineralizing your RO then just do as hoggie suggests and cut the RO with tap. The key ingredients in raising the RO's GH is Calcium and Magnesium. For raising the KH you'll need Carbonate or Bicarbonate. That's why you need so many different salts. Aquaessentials used to sell GH booster but I don't see it on their list of dry powders any more.

As stated earlier, unless you have a very good reason for using RO, it's absolutely pointless to go through all this trouble. There are just as many people using RO that suffer diatoms and other algae as there are that use tap water, so right off the bat you are trying to solve a problem that cannot be solved by the method you suppose because the cause of your problem has nothing to do with the content of your water.  

Cheers,


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## arty (26 Jun 2010)

*Re: RO water please advice ?*


KH realy necessary for water in tank or easily can keep at 0 ? Or simply can add some liters tap gain little KH , but then hard calculations, need always tests, every week different tap different ? Looks saechem don't offer kh option with this equilibrum product.
But i read some posts where ro water help to some people with silicate removing.
I know silicate is very small for membrane, but 4 stage final resin and after resin tds is 0. Only i'm not sure about resin expenses, iread some posts need change every 1-2 week for tds 0 and that is expensive for me. Do You think in this case silicate not removed ?
And if i'l mix tap with ro, can i make ratio Ca:mg not like 3:1 but 1:3 or 1:4, i have already a lot Epsom Salt and i found in network info about Magnesium little help keep in bay silicates and cheaper option for me ?
What do You think about this silicate removing product ?

500g of SERA Siporax Silicate Clear

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SERA-Silicate-Cle ... 4839cc1f9e

I don't found any feedbacks about this product, but if realy help and last 3 months, maybe maybe.

Is any other solution for this problem ?
 I don't know what do now, maybe new better light and accelerate plant grow !? I apologise silicates in water in limited level and diatoma Bio Mass can't be neverending. I need at least 15-20% change water weekly for healthy tank and with every water change again feed this shite diatoma build up skelets.

Thank You for Support !
Best Regards
Arty


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## ceg4048 (26 Jun 2010)

*Re: RO water please advice ?*



			
				arty said:
			
		

> KH realy necessary for water in tank or easily can keep at 0 ? Or simply can add some liters tap gain little KH , but then hard calculations, need always tests, every week different tap different ? Looks saechem don't offer kh option with this equilibrum product.


Arty,
    I don't understand why you want to make your life so complicated. First of all, as I've said, you have decided to use RO for the completely wrong reason. So now you will give yourself a new set of problems trying to calculate ratios and having to add things back into the water that you removed with the RO - and you will still have the same old problems. 

Diatoms do not care about your silicates. That is not what triggers diatoms in an aquarium. I have had tanks with plenty of silicates in my tap water and I didn't get diatoms. I've also had tanks using RO water and I got diatoms algae. When I got diatoms in the RO tank, I reduced the lighting. Within a few days the diatoms were reduced. Within a few weeks they disappeared completely. Diatoms are a cyclic algae. They often appear at tank startup because people go crazy with too much light. Immature tanks are susceptible to diatomic attacks because of the poor bacteria populations which cause fluctuations in NH4. There may be other factors as well which contribute, but by far, the most important factor is the light intensity.

Since they have this strange life cycle, normally they appear, then disappear and usually never return. If the aquarist continues the use of too much light then then the diatoms also continues.

The person(s) who claim that RO water solved their diatom problem was suffering from an optical illusion. It could easily be for example that the diatomic life cycle was at or near the end when they started using RO. They then associated the disappearance of the algae with the RO. Since diatoms typically do not return in aquariums, and if they continue to use RO they would then falsely conclude that the way to keep diatoms away is to continue the use of RO. 

This is how we get into trouble, with false associations. All you have to do to test the theory of silicates causing diatoms is to simply add a silicate source to a tank that does not presently have diatoms. You'll find that this will not trigger a diatom bloom. This is the same false correlation that many other people create between other types of algae and nutrients.

Diatomic algae, once triggered into bloom by high light will absolutely feed on silicates in the water. They use silicates to form the structure of their cell walls. When people heard that an autopsy of diatoms revealed high silicate content they immediately became hysterical and assumed that silicates caused diatoms. But silicates in the water cannot trigger a diatom bloom. If you study the bodies of GSA you will absolutely find that they contain phosphorous, but it is wrong to conclude that phosphorous in the water triggers a GSA bloom. The fact is that GSA is triggered when the PO4 levels are too low.

Your problem therefore is very simple. You have too much light. This is the case with 99% of people who suffer any kind of algae. Lower your light by at least 50%, continue to do large (50% or more) frequent water changes and ensure that you have adequate CO2 and flow. In a few weeks, the diatoms will disappear. This will mean that you do not have the burden of dealing with RO.



			
				arty said:
			
		

> I don't know what do now, maybe new better light and accelerate plant grow !?


Adding more light will never solve your problem - unless your problem is that you don't have enough algae.

Cheers,


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## arty (26 Jun 2010)

*Re: RO water please advice ?*

Real Thanks for advice but I'm Not sure about that. I have very low light 1w/gal, and extra one another temporary bulb 40w on top/middle over tank and vwhere light plants get more there diatoma less, but where light less there diatoma more.
About water changes, before change less, after water change within 5 hr i see much more diatoma wherever.
I tried already left over 400L only 40w light and got in result much more diatoma.

Cheers,


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## ceg4048 (27 Jun 2010)

*Re: RO water please advice ?*

It's not clear what size tank and what kind of lighting you have. are you saying this is a 400L tank lit by 40watts T5? That is not 1 WPG. What kind of flow/distribution? Is it CO2 enriched?

Cheers,


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## GHNelson (27 Jun 2010)

*Re: RO water please advice ?*

Hi Ceg
That's a fantastic response to artys dilemma,he needs to re-think where his problems are coming from.
I just recently set up a aquarium for a work mate.
The most important advise i gave him was to keep the lighting on for only 6 hours maximum per day for the first 12 weeks.
It is a must that floating plants are used within new set-ups which i provided,this just my opinion but it has never failed for me on any NEW aquarium setup this aquarium has a small internal MATURE filter and the water is crystal clear.
Most inexperienced aquarist go way over the top with lighting when setting up a NEW aquarium.
They need to learn how to crawl before they can walk the walk regarding clear and clean water.
I have never had any algae problems or diatoms problems ever.A mature filter is a must.
He doesn't say which filter he is using? Size/turnover/internal/external.
Keep up the good work Ceg.
hoggie


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## dw1305 (27 Jun 2010)

*Re: RO water please advice ?*

Hi all,
I think the silicates = diatoms issue is a red herring as well, I'd totally ignore them and they will go away of their own accord. I think it depends on what fish you want to keep whether R.O. is really needed. If I was trying to breed extreme black water fish or grow _Tonina _I'd go down the R.O. route, probably otherwise not. 

I think Ed keeps his Tang. cichlids in R.O., GH/KH buffered back up to a very high level, and that would be my suggestion as well, if you are really worried by the exact levels of GH/KH, Mg, K, Ca etc. Make you own GH/KH mix from suitable compounds (- magnesium sulphate, potassium bi-carbonate and calcium chloride would be suitable for example), and then measure the conductivity of them in 10 litres of R.O. you should only need 2 or 3 dGH/KH as your fertiliser addition will add both GH/KH, and raise the conductivity.

cheers Darrel


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## arty (27 Jun 2010)

Thanks for advice. My water is too crystal clear now except diatoma cover a lot places and plant leaves.
I keeping my old tank before i setup rio 400 for some years and never had any algea isues at all.
I think that due my water suply water parameters changed some 2-3 months ago. And i tried already within 2 months different methods, low light(my tank not as ceg said 40w on 400l,  i left specialy for some time due diatoma),  i tried left for some time - week or two can't remember now only 40w, i tried left only 80w and 4x40w(my max light) , two lights are very weak analog T8 and nothing helps. Best results i seen when lights all on, plants grow and only at bottom leaves grow diatoma. That why i asking about not better option raise more light and acellerate plant growth(?) I read some info about plants eating silacate in small amount and make from them stronger stems.
I think low light only slow down diatoma growth and  slow down plant growth too, but that don't resolve fully diatoma problem. Lighting not cause of this problems, i think diatoma is more imbalance in biological system imunity, excess of something and this excess build up. I found some info in internet about cause - poshphate: Silicate ratio, if Si higher  then bad, that can explain why silicates lost power itself, when tank become realy established P always present in tank from old leaves e.g.
And also fedbacks in many forums where users told they lost diatoma by itself with less or more light.
Other question what's amount in TAP silicates, if there is realy high amount then never can get P level higher as silicate level with healthy tank.
Possibly i have lack of P, maybe or realy high silicate amount in tap
Also i have a lot stem fast growing and floating plants. Filtration is ok, 1400L/h + Hydor prime 20(gives same flow as 1400) flos, ceramic rings + bio balls.
Please look info wherever in internet what said others, diatoma grow and survive in very low lights, You can left and 5w and anything that don't solve diatoma problem.
I Tried give macro some time, tried without any micro and macro, only potasium due i have fish stock and i feed very minimal.
I do regular maintenance. Water changes. Nothing helps.
Do You realy think problem coming somewhere except TAP water ?
Possibly problem come from fish food -  organic, i tried change food as possible, now i will look some time with totaly different food.
nitrite 0, amonia 0, nitrate 5-10
I have no options, will look some weeks and if don't solve then will go for RO/DI unit and totaly from tds 0 remineralize water or other option econimcal 50/50 with ca:mg ratio 1:3(4) gives me kh 3-4 and gh approx. same, then i need add only Epsom Salt Mgso4(i will make exact calculations later).

 Yesterday we visit with all family nice places, when looking one natural river, there water crystal creal and naturaly a lot looks like brown algea on sand and many plant leaves, possibly 'where comes our water supply' 

About light increase for plant growth acceleration as sample here from APC forum one thread about  Method of controlled imbalances:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/foru ... mmary.html

And there You can found how solve problems for allmost all types of algea and about diatoma author said:

"E. DIATOMEAS

Increase your light!!!!!! Don't waste you time about silicates."

That why i'm asking about maybe better option spend cash on better lighting first ?!
And why i'm asking to ceg about mg and ca ratio not only due i have a lot Epsom Salt for economy with ro, but also look author words:

"For example, everybody read about the Ca:Mg 4:1 ratio. This is a ratio from terrestian studies. Under the water this ratio produces several problems related to algae. The ratio that works better is exactly the opposite 1:4 "

"Overall, it says that the plants require at least 2 watts/g and in fact this should be read as it is the bare minimum to survive and grow for low requirements plants. However, our goal is a bit more ambitious because I want to induce a metabolism working at a 100% rate, which is why we recommend 4 w / g as a minimum. However, the feedback from the last two years it emerged that many people have successfully used this system with less illuminated aquariums (up to 0.3 watt / g). Anyway, we recommend to improve the lighting."


Best Regards


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## GHNelson (27 Jun 2010)

Hi arty
Have you had a look at this 
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm
hoggie


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## arty (27 Jun 2010)

Of course looked and looked many tiumes and long time ago too.

But You looked that:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/foru ... mmary.html

There is same isues, but  different methods

All what about i said in my posts is from my personal expirence and i compare all info what i found internet, not only from one forum or one website.

And why You asking about James web. ? There can found only:

Diatoms, Brown Algae
Highslide JS Highslide JS
Description 	Forms in brown patches on the glass, substrate and plants.
Cause 	Usually found in newly setup tanks due to silicates and ammonia as the filter and substrate have yet to mature.
Removal 	Can be vacuumed out or wiped of the glass with a soft cloth. Usually disappears after a few weeks when the tank has matured. Otocinclus will eat it.

This info nothing helps resolve problem, sorry.

Regards,


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## GHNelson (27 Jun 2010)

Yes arty
I did look at that Topic.
Interesting to say the least,I'm not sure though on 4watts per gallon lighting.
Ceg is the man on that subject
I have t8 lighting and never had algae or diatom problems ever.
Regards
hoggie


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## Fred Dulley (27 Jun 2010)

arty said:
			
		

> "For example, everybody read about the Ca:Mg 4:1 ratio. This is a ratio from terrestian studies. Under the water this ratio produces several problems related to algae. The ratio that works better is exactly the opposite 1:4 "



What tosh. People getting hung up on ratios again, oh dear. Plants don't give a monkeys about ratios, they just want enough of what they demand. Algae is triggered by ammonia and light. Therefore Ca and Mg, no matter what the ratio, could never cause algae.
Clive (ceg) is the most intelligent being I know with regards to planted tanks and his advice is golden.


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## arty (27 Jun 2010)

About ratio, that been adition to question about mixing RO water, and in this way i can get more easy kh 3-4 and gh 3-4 on budget mixing 50/50 ro/tap with MgSo4 ,  due i already have soft water. And if author of controled Imbalances recommend ratio not 4:1 but 1:4 then why not. But i will hear other expert advice too.
And what You can say about a lot people who told in different forums got diatoma due one or two bulbs faulty-going off and got when lighting less as been before ?
What about my plants, where light less there diatoma more, where lighting get plants more there diatoma less ?
And what You can said about official Labaroty after expirements posted about diatoma trigered due P:Si ratio, when silicates higher ? They are too blef  ?


Best Regards,


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## ceg4048 (28 Jun 2010)

Arty,
      Part of the problem is that we have very little control of the tank parameters. We cannot measure the parameters very well and there are many combinations of things that can affect the outcome. That's why, when you hear so many people say that they did this or that and the algae disappeared you really have no idea about all the things that changed in the tank. You can do something to your tank today and not see the results for a week. If you see the results in a week you probably won't remember what you did a week ago and it will be very easy to think that the cause of the algae is something you did yesterday.

None of the ratios you mention will matter unless there is a fundamental deficiency. If your tank is low on Mg then you will have Mg deficient symptoms. If the tank is low on Ca then you will suffer Ca deficient symptoms. As Fred mentioned, if you have an unlimited supply of both Ca and Mg in the water column then you can have whatever ratio you want and it will not produce any different effect whatsoever. That's why it's very easy for someone to say that a ratio of 4:1 (or whatever) produces good growth. Plants don't need a lot of either so it's very easy to satisfy their requirement. So, sure, I can show that 4:1, or 3:10 (or whatever number I want) is good if there is enough ppm of either in the tank.

You can test this for yourself. Go and dump a bucket load of MgSO4 in the tank and see what happens. As I said, it's the same with silicates. How do you explain the fact that there are people in your area (and our area) using tap who do not have diatoms? What about the people using RO who get diatoms? Will you blame it on Ca:Mg ratio? These are the same old arguments about excess nutrients causing algae. None of these arguments are valid. They have been tested and the arguments failed.

We've said to you earlier that diatomic algae occurs in a cycle, and that it appears, then disappears and does not return. Don't you think that might explain why those people observed that diatoms went away by itself? Even if you have low light, you can still get diatoms due to issues with tank immaturity. We have mentioned that. If the lighting is not excessive then it goes away by itself. But you may have played with the light, increased it, triggered the bloom - but the bloom may not have occurred until the day you decided to lower the light, so you concluded that low light was worse than high light. There are a million combinations of bad decisions which result in algae, but fundamentally, you need to keep the light low, have good stable CO2 and flow and have good levels of nutrients. Clean the tank regularly, and after a few weeks the diatoms will go away.

If you like to play with ratios, and if you like to use RO then fine, but they will not have an effect. Sometimes we are impatient and that causes even more problems.

Cheers,


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## arty (28 Jun 2010)

Thanks for advice Ceg. Probably You are right. 
Anything i calculated our budget and we need cash for tourism with childrens in this week, so no cash now for RO/DI not for new light.
Will left tank with 80w T8, some ferts and water changes some time and then will look what's next.

Best Regards,


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## sWozzAres (2 Jul 2010)

*Re: RO water please advice ?*



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Diatoms do not care about your silicates. That is not what triggers diatoms in an aquarium. I have had tanks with plenty of silicates in my tap water and I didn't get diatoms. I've also had tanks using RO water and I got diatoms algae. When I got diatoms in the RO tank, I reduced the lighting. Within a few days the diatoms were reduced. Within a few weeks they disappeared completely. Diatoms are a cyclic algae. They often appear at tank startup because people go crazy with too much light. Immature tanks are susceptible to diatomic attacks because of the poor bacteria populations which cause fluctuations in NH4. There may be other factors as well which contribute, but by far, the most important factor is the light intensity.
> 
> Since they have this strange life cycle, normally they appear, then disappear and usually never return. If the aquarist continues the use of too much light then then the diatoms also continues.
> 
> ...



If diatoms are silicon limited, then adding silica will allow them to grow, potentially turning into a bloom. It's no different to your own explanation with light, when you turn up the light you get a bloom because they were previously light limited.

If you have no diatoms in your tank to start with then you will never get diatoms regardless of light or silicon - they can't magically appear out of nowhere. Removing diatoms after an outbreak could stop them coming back because you've removed the silicon that they had absorbed. If you just filter them out then they will die in the dark filter and release silicon back into the water feeding more diatoms. You can have a bloom without noticing it since their numbers would have to get sufficient for you to see the difference, they could run out of silicon before this happens but be sat there waiting for another dose.

Diatoms do care alot about silicon.

I don't understand when people talk about cause and triggers since it implies one thing. Light or silicon can "cause" or be the "trigger" if the diatoms are light or silicon limited, respectively.

Heres an interesting study into diatoms and silicon...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... 3-0139.pdf

Perhaps a reason for the confusion around diatoms and silicon can be explained by this study..

http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/ ... l.pdf+html

In summary, biological phosphorus (algae food) will bind to aluminium thereby becoming useless to algae. There is 18 micrograms/l of aluminium in my tap water and that could nullify a certain amount of biological phosphorus in the tank. However, aluminium prefers to bind to silicon, so of I add silcon to my tank, then the aluminium will bind to that instead, leaving more biological phosphorus available to algae. 

Silicon reduces the algae reducing effect of aluminium.

As the study describes, adding silicon resulted in increased green algae growth as well as diatoms. It's an interesting read. 

I would also like to point out that the ratio of nutrients in an organism doesn't correlate to their requirement for those nutrients in that ratio. Some nutrients are simply required for metabolism and aren't stored in the organism and others are stored for no apparent reason. There was a study I read recently about rice storing huge amounts of silicon even though it didn't seem to need it and a hypothesis that in most biological organisms, silicon is used to bind to and thereby reduce the toxic effects of aluminium. In other words, just because your made of silicon, it doesn't neccesarily follow that you need it for growth.


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## Fred Dulley (2 Jul 2010)

*Re: RO water please advice ?*



			
				sWozzAres said:
			
		

> If diatoms are silicon limited, then adding silica will allow them to grow, potentially turning into a bloom. It's no different to your own explanation with light, when you turn up the light you get a bloom because they were previously light limited.



Silica can feed diatoms however they are not the reason as to why they are there in the first place. 

Ceg explains here 





> Diatomic algae, once triggered into bloom by high light will absolutely feed on silicates in the water. They use silicates to form the structure of their cell walls. When people heard that an autopsy of diatoms revealed high silicate content they immediately became hysterical and assumed that silicates caused diatoms. But silicates in the water cannot trigger a diatom bloom. If you study the bodies of GSA you will absolutely find that they contain phosphorous, but it is wrong to conclude that phosphorous in the water triggers a GSA bloom. The fact is that GSA is triggered when the PO4 levels are too low.





			
				sWozzAres said:
			
		

> It's no different to your own explanation with light, when you turn up the light you get a bloom because they were previously light limited.




Ceg's explanation is different from your's because the algae spores only need ammonia+light. Hence light limited. Algae spore trigger and algae growth are different. The rest I shall leave in the much capeable hands of Ceg


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## ceg4048 (2 Jul 2010)

*Re: RO water please advice ?*



			
				sWozzAres said:
			
		

> ...I don't understand when people talk about cause and triggers since it implies one thing. Light or silicon can "cause" or be the "trigger" if the diatoms are light or silicon limited, respectively...


Yes, I know, that's part of the problem, the confusion is based on a lack of understanding between causality and exacerbation.

Algae have two forms. They first exist as spores, which might be analogous seeds in higher plants. Here is an example of algae spores. Pictured below isn't diatomic algae, but is a green water type of algae (Haematococcus pluvialis). When in this state, algae sample the environment waiting for the combination of environmental parameters that are suitable for it's growth. In this form, the algae is invisible and innocuous. They lay on the substrate, on the surface of plants, wherever the currents take them. We're not sure exactly what combination of parameters they read, but we do know that light is a primary parameter. If the spectral energy exceeds some value it triggers a physiological change.





Photo used by kind permission of Dennis Kunkel Microscopy.

This is the same species after the bloom. It is an entirely different form from the "seed" or spore. When the algae has bloomed into this form then all the available nutrients in the water are at it's disposal. Now the rules change. Now silicon, or Nitrogen or Phosphorous or whatever nutrition available is fair game. The more nutrients and light, the faster the growth, just as in higher plants.




Photo used by kind permission of Dennis Kunkel Microscopy.

The idea therefore is to prevent the transformation from the first form to the other. This is what many are having difficulty understanding. When diatom algae are in the form in the first photo it does not matter what the silicon, aluminum or Phosphorous levels are if the lighting is below a threshold level. Furthermore, if the lighting exceeds the trigger threshold the algae will bloom even if the silicon level is low.

Conversely, silicate levels by itself will not cause the algae to go from the form shown in photo 1 to the form in photo 2. However, if the spectral energy levels are high enough then the transformation will occur. In a similar way a higher plant must have certain conditions met under which it will transform from seed to seedling.

All of the data discussed in the articles you kindly provided are based on working with the diatomic form shown in photo 2. They are working with diatoms that have already bloomed.

In the same way, the PO4 levels in the tank cannot by itself cause PO4 related algae to bloom. However, if an algae is triggered into blooming, then the algae in form number 2 will feed on whatever PO4 it can get it's hands on. The Catch-22 is this; Plants need more Phosphorous than algae need, so it's folly to try to remove PO4 from the tank because you will only be hurting your plants. Keep the algae that is in photo 1 from triggering into the form in photo 2 by keeping the lighting reasonable and your plants will be able to use the PO4, but the algal spores will not care what the PO4 levels are. This is how a high light tank is kept in balance, not by trying to rid the tank of elements that are desperately needed by the very organisms that you are trying to grow.



			
				sWozzAres said:
			
		

> I would also like to point out that the ratio of nutrients in an organism doesn't correlate to their requirement for those nutrients in that ratio.


Yes I completely agree with this. Ratios in this sense are generally meaningless.

Cheers,


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## sWozzAres (3 Jul 2010)

Most diatoms go through a cell division phase where each successive generation divides to produce smaller offspring. Only when they reach some 30% of their initial size do they wait for a trigger to reproduce sexually. Triggers include not only light but nutrients, temperature and pH etc Depends. Just from an evolutionary point of view, it makes no sense to enter a reproductive phase if the environment won't fully support it.

As you know there are thousands of types of diatoms. It would really help to identify which ones we are talking about since all the studies that we can get hold of are specific to a particular diatom and the results don't always apply to our tanks.

I am toying with the idea of spending 500 on a microscope


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## Lisa_Perry75 (4 Jul 2010)

TBH I think that a microscope at Â£500 is not going to be good enough to accurately identify algae. Your best bet might be looking for an academic that studies freshwater algae and asking them for some info. In fact I'm sure I've read somewhere that Mr Tom Barr is somewhat an expert. Perhaps he would be so kind as to share some knowledge?


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## dw1305 (5 Jul 2010)

Hi all,
Lisa may well be right, but I think  a relatively cheap compound microscope could do for diatoms. I've recently dealt with Brunel Microscopes, and they have a good range of ex-demonstrators etc. well inside the Â£500 mark. Alan Potter is the main man and I was very impressed by him. <http://www.brunelmicroscopes.co.uk/> & pre-owned <http://www.usedmicroscopes.co.uk/exdemocompound.html>.

There is the microscopy UK site with lots of information <http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/> & <http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag...croscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/artnov99/machdiat.html>.

There is also the wonderful "Bioimages", I've had a lot of correspondence with Malcolm Storey  and he has been very helpful. 

Bioimages Diatoms: <http://www.bioimages.org.uk/html/t80560.htm>

cheers Darrel


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## Brenmuk (5 Jul 2010)

Wow great pictures you've sourced there ceg4048!


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## arty (18 Jul 2010)

Hello,

Here follow my story. I put extra bilogical media in my rio 400, maintenace and now after 2 weeks situation much better.
About light i'm sure  not problem resolving for diatoma, why - here proof on my new 2 more weeks setup.
New setup
80L
hydor 450l/h internal + reactor unknow l/h
aqua clay and  low stock with plants, extra added fast growing cabombas and Egeria densa
i left on light only 1 bulb but anything 2 wpg, high light
2 weeks regular water change every 3 days 60%
Ferilizing EI double dose due water changes and unknow how much absorb nutrients new clay substrate
2 weeks given only easy carbo 1ml(2ml to much, some plants start melt) and no one algea been, but growth realy slow.
I added 1 small fish for cycling period from start.
I use seachem prime water conditioner.

  2-3 days ago i start inject co2 and after couple of hours near internal filter diatoma and on some rock slates, actualy within 2 hours i got diatoma.
Got due amonia imediate spike after injecting co2 via reactor, i have some amonia tests but i don't trust to this test stripes also there NH3 calculate + NH4 and not correct colors, but i feel very good amonia spike from water smell. In same day i changed 60% water and added macros. Diatoma stoping growning at all, lights on full throtle already some days and diatoma don't grow. Also i now every day feed water with little bacteria and will make regular water changes keep amonia so low as possible.
I think diatoma problem not light but instead amonia  
And I think light only is accelerator for diatoma if can feed with amonia and organics but that not problem resolving method, simply need keep organics and amonia so low as possible.
Of course lowering light for some time until amonia and organic waste problem resolved is good option too.
Now i'm on budget but i will buy Seachem matrix media or Siporax very soon.

Best Regards an many Thanks for Discusion 
I wish Nice Day to All Forum Members


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## sWozzAres (3 Aug 2010)

*Re: RO water please advice ?*



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Algae have two forms. They first exist as spores, which might be analogous seeds in higher plants. Here is an example of algae spores. This isn't diatomic algae, but is a green water type of algae (Haematococcus pluvialis). When in this state, algae sample the environment waiting for the combination of environmental parameters that are suitable for it's growth. In this form, the algae is invisible and innocuous. They lay on the substrate, on the surface of plants, wherever the currents take them. We're not sure exactly what combination of parameters they read, but we do know that light is a primary parameter. If the spectral energy exceeds some value it triggers a physiological change.



Your talking about stopping spores from germinating. I doubt this is possible in a tank full of nutrients. I think your better off stopping spores being produced, this is a different issue entirely what with it being on the other side of meiosis. I would expect it is more controllable.

Obviously, depends on which algae we are talking about. I think diatoms are oogamous, the egg stays inside the diatom and the motile sperm has to find it via chemataxis. I would imagine that flow can help alot in stopping this. If syngamy doesn't occur within a timelimit, the diatom will die. Flow could also affect zoospores (motile spores) by getting them stuck in your filter, maybe.

From what I can see, there are many different life cycles for algae. I am trying to identify the ones in my tank but it's no easy task! I would say though that dormant spore production seems to be a survival mechanism against adverse conditions, such as the onset of winter or depletion of nutrients. Therefore, simply practicing stability in the tank would go along way to avoiding sporogenesis.


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## ceg4048 (4 Aug 2010)

*Re: RO water please advice ?*



			
				sWozzAres said:
			
		

> Your talking about stopping spores from germinating. I doubt this is possible in a tank full of nutrients. I think your better off stopping spores being produced, this is a different issue entirely what with it being on the other side of meiosis. I would expect it is more controllable.


Of course it's possible. I do it all the time. So do many others. I don't have any alga blooms. Algae are not caused by nutrients in the water. It's exactly the opposite of what you think. The Matrix has poisoned your mind against nutrients, so you've learned to associate nutrient levels with algae and this is a false premise. The OP is at least on the right track. The combination of light and the ammonia loading rate is responsible for his troubles.

Here is a tank which was being dosed with over 80 ppm NO3 and over 20ppm PO4 per week at the time of the photo. Conductivity was typically in excess of 800 microseimens. Alkalinity was just less than 15 KH and hardness was in excess of 25 GH. CO2 and flow were optimized at that point in the tanks life. I deliberately made the tank as hostile as I could with respect to these parameters and there were only two species I could not grow in abundance. One was named Tonina belem. The only bit of algae is seen on the wood. I didn't even clean the glass to take this photo. Of course you can stop spores from blooming. You just have to negotiate a settlement.







			
				sWozzAres said:
			
		

> Obviously, depends on which algae we are talking about. I think diatoms are oogamous, the egg stays inside the diatom and the motile sperm has to find it via chemataxis. I would imagine that flow can help alot in stopping this. If syngamy doesn't occur within a timelimit, the diatom will die. Flow could also affect zoospores (motile spores) by getting them stuck in your filter, maybe.


Whatever. I don't care what species we're talking about. I don't have them because I'm not afraid of nutrients and because I concentrate on maximizing plant health first. This is the only form of negotiation algae will accept, regardless of the species or number of spores.



			
				sWozzAres said:
			
		

> From what I can see, there are many different life cycles for algae. I am trying to identify the ones in my tank but it's no easy task! I would say though that dormant spore production seems to be a survival mechanism against adverse conditions, such as the onset of winter or depletion of nutrients. Therefore, simply practicing stability in the tank would go along way to avoiding sporogenesis.


Well, again, I don't worry so much about studying or identifying the species. From my point of view that is tedious. I'm much more interested in  growing plants, not stopping algae. I only need to recognize the general species in order to determine the nature of the fault occurring in the tank system. Once a general identification is achieved the corrective action can then be taken to improve plant health. The bloom subsides by default. This is why people fail in a high tech tank. They constantly worry about algae and their whole focus becomes a tunnel vision. This mentality of eradication is doomed from the start. Study plants, not algae. First learn what makes plants grow best. When the plants are healthy this automatically causes algae to recede.

Cheers,


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