# DSM no growth



## Patrick Crowley (12 Nov 2017)

Hi all
I’m trying my first DSM, here are some details:

Fluval Spec V - 19L
Tropica Powder Soil
Dwarf Hair Grass ‘Mini’ - 1,2 Grow
HC Monte Carlo - 1,2 Grow
Stock light plus Arcadia Classica stretch (2 lights)
14 hours light
24c max, 16c min (night)
Cling wrapped, misting tap water 4-5 times per day

I’m now into my third week and can see zero growth!  Do I just need to be more patient, or any other suggestions?

I’ll try and post some pictures.

Thanks so much


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## Ryan Thang To (12 Nov 2017)

Hi
Try spray it once a day and let air in for 5 mins and then cling it up. You can speed things up by adding a stronger light on

Cheers
Ryan


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## zozo (13 Nov 2017)

Patrick Crowley said:


> I’m now into my third week and can see zero growth! Do I just need to be more patient




That usualy the case.. Those plantlets all get into a transplant shock.. Pulled from the rockwool, cut, brooken and bruized (roots) into fertilized soil.. It also depends on the life quality of the plant and it is very hard to say how it will handle this.. Some recover sooner than others, some might even not recover at all and die. The plant first goes into shock and will do nothing, maybe lets the leaves hang, then slowly goes into recovery mode, trying to repair the damage.. Than first you'll see the leaves erect again, than it needs to develop some healthy root growth, once this established new leaves start to appear.. As said depending on the quality and type of plant this takes time.. What happens bellow the substrate cannot be seen, but there is where the first action starts. Putting a plantlet very close to the glass edge can give you a looking glas and an indication how it progresses. Still it's only one plantlet, but it's still a marker. It can be moved to a different spot afterwards..

Give the plants in this stage a long as possible light periode, but not to bright (not to warm).. Keep the temp at a stable 22 to 25°C and don't create to much cold draft. Since plants in shock do not uptake very much if nothing at all in the first days, it solely survives this resting period on stored energy. To warm or to much draft evaporates to much what to plant does not uptake again, that's only loss.. To cold draft also slows down this recovery prosess.. So a moderate intensity for a 18 hour periode is a good strating point. They need light to develop and grow and recover, beeing in the dark for the biggest part of the day wont help much in that. Once all is showing some new growth, intensity can be increased, to compact the growth.. After it is flooded, decrease time periode and if need also intensity again to avoid algae growth..


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## Tim Harrison (13 Nov 2017)

The key for me was 12hr photo period on max intensity. I also foliar fed with a dilute nutrient solution; if the solution is too concentrated it may burn plant leaves. I used 3ml TNC Complete per litre of water.

The methodology is usually as follows...

1. Add water to a level just below the surface of the substrate; _don't let the water level raise above the top of the substrate. _It's easy to do even when you only spray once a day.
2. Keep the tank sealed, but let fresh air in for 5 minutes every day to replace the old stagnant air, this may help prevent mould.
3. Spray and mist the plants.
4. Reseal.
5. Repeat daily for between 2 - 6 weeks during which time your lawn should become fully established, and then flood.


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## tam (13 Nov 2017)

When you transplant any plant, you always get root growth first. With a pot you turn it upside down to see the roots coming through - can't with a tank though. Zozo's idea of a plant near the edge is a good one - have a look around and see if you can spot any new roots rather than top growth.


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## Patrick Crowley (13 Nov 2017)

Some really great replies and advice here, a great help - thanks!

Here are some photos of day 1








And now





(That gap in the dwarf hair grass is for a bonsai tree, in case you wondered...)

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## kadoxu (15 Nov 2017)

The good news is that the plants aren't dying and there is some growth in there, just not too much, as expected from only 3 weeks. Remember patience pays a lot in this hobby, and being patient usually means waiting for 4-6 weeks... 

From my experience, this is what I would do:

Add just a tiny bit of ferts to the water you spray (and I mean a tiny tiny bit, or you'll burn the plants) and spray 1 or 2 times a day, leaving the cling film off for 5-10 mins each time to air the tank and avoid mold.
A heating mat bellow the tank will help a lot during the dry start, cling film bellow the light and not on top of it. This is because you want the small amount of water/substrate in the tank to be slightly heated, and not the air. Heated air can dry the plants out.
Try taking pics from the same angle and compare them. I can see some changes from day one to the last pic, so you're probably already on the way to success.


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## Patrick Crowley (16 Nov 2017)

Yes, I think you have hit on something here.  I originally included the lights inside the wrap to help heat the whole system.  But I think all I’m doing is heating the air, when I need to heat the soil.

I will look to make some changes this weekend to see if I can implement some of the great advice throughout this thread.
I’ll keep posting sone progress pictures (from the same angle).

Cheers all!


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## Rodgie (17 Nov 2017)

kadoxu said:


> Add just a tiny bit of ferts to the water you spray (and I mean a tiny tiny bit, or you'll burn the plants) and spray 1 or 2 times a day, leaving the cling film off for 5-10 mins each time to air the tank and avoid mold.




With that do you also have separe Macro Micro spray bottles and spray them alternately everyday? 

I'll be following this thread of yours Patrick. I'll be doing DSM too on my fluval spec V low tech approach. Good luck and I think your off to a good start. PATIENCE is the key on this definitely. In your opinion, is the LED light that came with the tank brighter compared to T5 lights?


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## kadoxu (18 Nov 2017)

Rodgie said:


> With that do you also have separe Macro Micro spray bottles and spray them alternately everyday?
> 
> I'll be following this thread of yours Patrick. I'll be doing DSM too on my fluval spec V low tech approach. Good luck and I think your off to a good start. PATIENCE is the key on this definitely. In your opinion, is the LED light that came with the tank brighter compared to T5 lights?



Good question. With very low concentrations I'd say no need to, but I do my own fertz and make them in a way I could put them in the same container if I wanted to.


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## Patrick Crowley (21 Nov 2017)

Rodgie said:


> With that do you also have separe Macro Micro spray bottles and spray them alternately everyday?
> 
> I'll be following this thread of yours Patrick. I'll be doing DSM too on my fluval spec V low tech approach. Good luck and I think your off to a good start. PATIENCE is the key on this definitely. In your opinion, is the LED light that came with the tank brighter compared to T5 lights?




The LED light in the new Spec V is apparently a big improvement on the older version, however it is too blue for my taste and still fairly low light.  I’ve never had T5 lights so can’t compare I’m afraid.

My new light just arrived for this tank, the Arcadia Stretch was really no stronger than the stock light  (but did have a much nicer colour temperature).  I spent a ridiculous amount of time trying to find something that was just right, and had to import something from the U.S in the end - the Finnex 24/7 planted SE







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## Patrick Crowley (25 Nov 2017)

Quick update for you, just hit 4 weeks.  I’ve made some changes based on the advice given here.

They are:
• added a small heat mat
• misting once a day with a few drops of ferts in the tap water
• moved the lights outside the cling wrap (also changed the light to something more powerful)

I think it has made a difference, there is definitely more humidity the glass is almost impossible to see through now.  Anyway here are some pics (I wiped all the glass and removed the wrap just to take a picture, it’s now all wrapped up again)












Check out this runner!!






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## Silviu Man (25 Nov 2017)

Hi!
I cannot give advices but I can share my experience in such project.

I use this method for a Wabi Kusa and for multiplication of the plant prior to planting the tank.  In all cases I use a complete isolation of the chamber where plants were planted on Tropica soil. Purpose was to get a full greenhouse effect. In the cover of the chamber it was a small hole from which I was pomping small amounts of CO2, daily. Being complet isolated, water was creating an internal cycle so no more water was necesary to be added. Ferts from the substrate were enough to cover the requirements of the plants because, in such environment, plants act as emersed ones, so the most important way to fed themselves are the roots. An environment enriched in CO2 is beneficial for the plants because force them to use everything they can get from the water and the ground. At least 10-12 hours light per day are esential : this will support photosynthesis. Of course, too much CO2 will have a negative effect. Simple 5-6 pushes of a Tropica 60 spray should be enough.

In my opinion, the main problem you have is the difference in the hights of the substrate. The lower one is close to water, the higher one have less water. The water and the effect of osmotic pressure (hope is the right term) are crucial in growth of emersed plants. Osmotic pressure is pozitive correlated with temperature and water level. It is well known that, in a normal water regime, between 5 to 35 C, the growth rate of the plants rise with every + 10C. It is considered that the optimal range is in between 22 and 26 C (some research says is between 18 and 24 C).

Nevertheless, like in all situations, formula is : water, light, CO2, ferts. But the most important, in my opinion and in the limit of my experience, is to keep plants in an environment as close as possible to a submersed one. This way plants grow as emersed but will adapt themselves easy to an aquatic environment.


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## kadoxu (25 Nov 2017)

Looking good!


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## Patrick Crowley (9 Dec 2017)

Ok, here we are at 6 weeks.  Still progressing, but sloooow.  The Monte Carlo is pretty much there, but that hair grass.....
I think I will give it another week and then flood.





I placed my tree in just to see how it looks, it is growing in another tank the last few weeks.  So here you can see the type of thing I’m going for.







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## Patrick Crowley (14 Jan 2018)

Ok, here is an update for you.  Been flooded for about 4 weeks





I’m very happy with the Monte Carlo, the hair grass is still a bit patchy rather than a nice carpet.  I think I will give it it’s first trim soon.
The weeping moss on the tree is doing well in some parts, going brown in others.


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## kadoxu (17 Jan 2018)

Patrick Crowley said:


> Ok, here is an update for you.  Been flooded for about 4 weeks
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow! Now I really want a Fluval Spec...

Hairgrass spreads faster when trimmed regularly.


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## castle (17 Jan 2018)

Looks like Eleocharis Acicularis 'Mini'... I always thought we trimmed hairgrasses to keep them low? I used Eleocharis Acicularis 'Mini' and it sends out runners willingly-ish. I only query this, as if trimming does cause the plant to produce runners I'll do it


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