# Request for feedback on stocking of large tank: tank 2 8x4x22 (ft,ft,inch) ~approx 450 gallon



## anewbie (27 Aug 2022)

This is the second aquarium - dimension are 8 ft x 4ft x 22ft.
Target water condition is kh 1 tds 40-50 gh 1-2:
8-10 winemilleri geo
2 apistogramma lineata or pebas
4 pseudohemiodon sp peru
4 to 6 GBR
16 to 20 sterbai 
some random plecos (L204,L397,various bn maybe L204 depends what is for sale and what i have left over)
6 picus smudge spot catfish
20-30 Hemiodus gracilis (not a great fit as they prefer cooler temp; but having problem finding a decent schooling fish for the top that (a) likes 82-84 and (b) large enough to not be eaten by geo.


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## tiger15 (27 Aug 2022)

You have indeed a huge tank for home aquarium.  Nothing wrong with small fish in big tank if you plan to plant scape it.        Your tentative inhabitants appistogramma and GBR are dwarf cichlid popular in nano / small aquarium but seem to be a waste of large space that can fit bigger fish.  Your Geo is a large cichlid and if you worry it will eat small schoolers, then you should also worry about housing it with dwarf cichlid.  IME, Geo are non predatory and small fish are not endangered.  However,  Geo are earth eater and will uproot substrate rooted plants so you are limiting to epiphytes and potted plants if you plan to have Geo.  Since your tank temp is in warm 80s, large angel or discus fish will do well and are plant friendly.  There are many descent size schoolers/ shoaler such as Tiger barb, Congo, diamond and bleeding heart tetra  that do well with big fish.  I’ve seen Hemiodus gracilis in warm Amazonian tank and should be fine.  For top swimmer, pink tail Chalceus  is surface hugging, so are pearl, blue and other guarami but they are loner,  not schooler.  I keep many of the fish I recommended to you  in my 75 to 125 gal, small compared to yours, but still above average home aquarium.


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## PARAGUAY (28 Aug 2022)

A large group of Angel fish..In a tank that size they would look stunning. Adding  several shoals of tetras with Cory catfish


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## Conort2 (28 Aug 2022)

anewbie said:


> This is the second aquarium - dimension are 8 ft x 4ft x 22ft.
> Target water condition is kh 1 tds 40-50 gh 1-2:
> 8-10 winemilleri geo
> 2 apistogramma lineata or pebas
> ...


Sounds good however the dwarf cichlids may struggle to compete. There is also a possibility they may get eaten by the geophagus, they’re not a predatory fish but they get pretty big and fish will eat whatever can fit in their mouth. 

I’d probably go for something abit larger like Krobia, laetercara or if you can find them my favourites which are dwarf pike cichlids. Really interesting fish and harmless with anything that can’t fit in their mouths. Angelfish are always a good option too or stuff like Severums and chocolate cichlids if you’re not too fussed about plants.

Hemiodus gracilis will be fine in that temperature although all the species you’ve mentioned won’t mind it abit cooler if you leave out the rams which I think you should due to reasons mentioned earlier.

 Any of the other larger bodied tetras will also work fine like bleeding hearts, Colombian, lemon, wadai, rosy, etc. The choice now with all the new species of tetra being imported and bred is massive.

Cheers


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## PARAGUAY (28 Aug 2022)

Although it's a large tank good point about deep bodied tetras above


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## anewbie (28 Aug 2022)

Conort2 said:


> Sounds good however the dwarf cichlids may struggle to compete. There is also a possibility they may get eaten by the geophagus, they’re not a predatory fish but they get pretty big and fish will eat whatever can fit in their mouth.
> 
> I’d probably go for something abit larger like Krobia, laetercara or if you can find them my favourites which are dwarf pike cichlids. Really interesting fish and harmless with anything that can’t fit in their mouths. Angelfish are always a good option too or stuff like Severums and chocolate cichlids if you’re not too fussed about plants.
> 
> ...


One thing that confuses me is why the GEO would eat rams but not rosy or serape tetra which are much smaller ? Other than that i could move some of the larger cichlid from tank 1 to tank 2; drop the rams (though they are a favorite of mine) and add some laetacara dorsigera or araguaiae and drop the temp to 78.


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## Conort2 (28 Aug 2022)

anewbie said:


> One thing that confuses me is why the GEO would eat rams but not rosy or serape tetra which are much smaller ? Other than that i could move some of the larger cichlid from tank 1 to tank 2; drop the rams (though they are a favorite of mine) and add some laetacara dorsigera or araguaiae and drop the temp to 78.


Sorry should’ve been clearer, they’ll eat female apistogramma not rams. Rams I think will be outcompeted/intimidated due to the size of the geophagus. Full grown winellmeri are a big fish. You’ve also have pictus catfish which are extremely greedy fast fish, again another that May outcompete the dwarf cichlids. It is a massive tank so could be possible. I just feel dwarf cichlids do best when they’re the ‘dominant’ species and can really show their best behaviour. If you went with a smaller geophagus species I think the dwarfs would be doable.

Cheers


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## tiger15 (28 Aug 2022)

anewbie said:


> One thing that confuses me is why the GEO would eat rams but not rosy or serape tetra which are much smaller ? Other than that i could move some of the larger cichlid from tank 1 to tank 2; drop the rams (though they are a favorite of mine) and add some laetacara dorsigera or araguaiae and drop the temp to 78.


Tetra are fast, Rams are slow.  Diamond, bleeding heart or Columbia tetra grow as large as male Ram.  Serpae and rosy are a bit too small to be with Geo.   I like Ram too but they are delicate to keep even without powerful competitors, and will certainly be bullied in open water.   You have better chance to go with Kribensis and many Tanganyiken dwarf cichlid that are a bit larger, tougher, and habitual cave dweller.


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## Hufsa (29 Aug 2022)

tiger15 said:


> You have better chance to go with Kribensis and many Tanganyiken dwarf cichlid that are a bit larger, tougher, and habitual cave dweller.


The OP appears to be setting up a tank for south american fish, I really dont think Tanganyikans are going to go well with that


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## anewbie (29 Aug 2022)

tiger15 said:


> Tetra are fast, Rams are slow.  Diamond, bleeding heart or Columbia tetra grow as large as male Ram.  Serpae and rosy are a bit too small to be with Geo.   I like Ram too but they are delicate to keep even without powerful competitors, and will certainly be bullied in open water.   You have better chance to go with Kribensis and many Tanganyiken dwarf cichlid that are a bit larger, tougher, and habitual cave dweller.


Big mistake to mix africans with sa; they don't speak the same language which often leads to conflict.


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## anewbie (29 Aug 2022)

Conort2 said:


> Sorry should’ve been clearer, they’ll eat female apistogramma not rams. Rams I think will be outcompeted/intimidated due to the size of the geophagus. Full grown winellmeri are a big fish. You’ve also have pictus catfish which are extremely greedy fast fish, again another that May outcompete the dwarf cichlids. It is a massive tank so could be possible. I just feel dwarf cichlids do best when they’re the ‘dominant’ species and can really show their best behaviour. If you went with a smaller geophagus species I think the dwarfs would be doable.
> 
> Cheers


Which smaller geo would you suggest that is comfortable in the warmer waters. When I looked up sizes they all seem similar but perhaps i missed something; the primary alternatives i had listed in my notes were altifrons or sveni.
-
My notes list cupido as an another geo like fish i could add but I think i would prefer krobia over cupido; and focus on one bottom geo.


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## AlecF (29 Aug 2022)

My only advice would be to go slower stocking. Start with 3 species from the list, cories, a tetra, and a feature fish, edited according to the good advice above. Let them settle. Then you have more time to research what to add and enjoy the decisions. There's so much different behaviour within a species, it can help to see what kind of personalities you've got. With all the choices you have I agree a SA focus seems good.


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## tiger15 (29 Aug 2022)

anewbie said:


> Big mistake to mix africans with sa; they don't speak the same language which often leads to conflict.


Not true.  Close species aggression is greater than distant species aggression.  Not speaking the same language enables greater harmony as they don’t perceive each other as competition.  The reason you don’t want to mix African with SA is water chemistry requirement.  CA and non Amazon SA have  water chemistry closer to African rift lakes, and many common tetra are bred in alkaline water in Florida.  Most Geos, Apisto and Rams are black water species and don’t do well in alkaline water.  I mix many Africans with CA and  SA but stay out of black water species.        Having all Africans or all CA/SA closely related has greater aggression and hybridization problem IME than mixing distant species.  I’m not displaying a public aquarium for education so Biotope and species purity is not a mandate.  I mixed plants and live stock from all continents as long as their water demands are similar.


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## ScareCrow (29 Aug 2022)

tiger15 said:


> Not true. Close species aggression is greater than distant species aggression. Not speaking the same language enables greater harmony as they don’t perceive each other as competition


I'm not an animal behaviourist but
I would say this isn't entirely true. "Not speaking the same language" is a real problem. Species that encounter one another in the wild will be able to read behavioural cues.
I think ecological niche, availability of suitable habitat and level of aggression are more relevant. If you were to keep several cave dwelling species together but only provide a single cave, the most aggressive of the species will get the cave, regardless of whether they are closely related, from the same region or not.

As the OP wants to keep corydoras, I certainly wouldn't add any African lake cichlids.


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## tiger15 (29 Aug 2022)

I agree that Cory and Africans shouldn’t be kept together as Cory are soft water fish, and Africans are hard water.  But  bristlenose and many common tetra can as they have been bred in Florida alkaline water for decades.  There are no true cave dwellers from SA/CA., only cave hugger.  True cave dwellers from African rift lakes as well as Kribs  thrive in, swim upside down and even lay eggs on roofs of caves.  Certainly, you don’t keep cave dwellers with one cave to share, but  multiple and preferably caves within caves for best outcome.  I found that cave dwellers love to sneak in and out of dense vegetation that do not exist in their natural habitat..  Regarding behavior,  close species display similar courtship and territorial signals that can lead to inter species aggression and hybridization.   Distant species speaking different language can avoid such pitfalls and attain greater harmony IME.


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## anewbie (29 Aug 2022)

tiger15 said:


> Not true.  Close species aggression is greater than distant species aggression.  Not speaking the same language enables greater harmony as they don’t perceive each other as competition.  The reason you don’t want to mix African with SA is water chemistry requirement.  CA and non Amazon SA have  water chemistry closer to African rift lakes, and many common tetra are bred in alkaline water in Florida.  Most Geos, Apisto and Rams are black water species and don’t do well in alkaline water.  I mix many Africans with CA and  SA but stay out of black water species.        Having all Africans or all CA/SA closely related has greater aggression and hybridization problem IME than mixing distant species.  I’m not displaying a public aquarium for education so Biotope and species purity is not a mandate.  I mixed plants and live stock from all continents as long as their water demands are similar.


For west african species like kribs soft water is the norm. Obviously lake africans are not compatible with regards ot water but since kribs were mentioned they are a valid consideration with regards to water condition. There are some really nice west african fishes to consider but the conflict in signals is a problem.
-
Many species of central american fishes prefer harder water that are closer to rift like fishes but i have no interest in going that direction.


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## JeffK (29 Aug 2022)

Geophagus require a large section of... earth. Sand, more like it, but they like to sift through the substrate. 

Corydoras would love a big sandy substrate, but be careful with the combination. Corydoras do not understand territorial boundaries which could result in conflicts, especially when Geo's are breeding, and stress out both fish.

I would not add in Apistogramma. They usually inhabit different biotopes with many leaves and wood that has fallen off trees. Only a handful species like A. commbrae are found in more open spaces.

If I were you, I'd pick your favorite fish and add fish that combine well and are from the same habitat.

Oh and might I add: what a huge tank! So many options and possibilities!


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## Conort2 (29 Aug 2022)

anewbie said:


> Which smaller geo would you suggest that is comfortable in the warmer waters. When I looked up sizes they all seem similar but perhaps i missed something; the primary alternatives i had listed in my notes were altifrons or sveni.


Mirabilis, red head tapajos or geophagus sp panta rhei/teles pires would be good. The biotodoma species are also a good choice. The guinacara sp in the trade would also be a good choice.

Cheers


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## John q (29 Aug 2022)

anewbie said:


> Big mistake to mix africans with sa; they don't speak the same language which often leads to conflict.


Rather dependent on the sp of fish you choose, I keep Anomalochromis thomasi with Mikrogeophagus altispinosus, without issue.


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## anewbie (29 Aug 2022)

Conort2 said:


> Mirabilis, red head tapajos or geophagus sp panta rhei/teles pires would be good. The biotodoma species are also a good choice. The guinacara sp in the trade would also be a good choice.
> 
> Cheers


mirabllis is the same size as winemilleri so i suppose that one is out; the red head doesn't appeal to me but teh sources i link also indicate it is the same size (6-8 ich/20cm) but maybe smaller bodied?,  sp panta is also listed as 20cm adult. So my question  are the sources of information i'm finding on these fishes incorrect or are they really smaller than winemilleri ?

Btw the mirabllis looks like an interesting fish - just that it is listed as the same size as winemilleri.


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## Conort2 (30 Aug 2022)

anewbie said:


> mirabllis is the same size as winemilleri so i suppose that one is out; the red head doesn't appeal to me but teh sources i link also indicate it is the same size (6-8 ich/20cm) but maybe smaller bodied?, sp panta is also listed as 20cm adult. So my question are the sources of information i'm finding on these fishes incorrect or are they really smaller than winemilleri ?


They’re all smaller than winemilleri. They range from 6-8inch with 8 inch being a very large male. Winemilleri can get up to 12 inches and is a larger growing species of geophagus.

Cheers


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## anewbie (30 Aug 2022)

Conort2 said:


> They’re all smaller than winemilleri. They range from 6-8inch with 8 inch being a very large male. Winemilleri can get up to 12 inches and is a larger growing species of geophagus.
> 
> Cheers


Ok thanks. I guess the info on winemilleri in seriouslyfish is incorrect (they have 6 to 8 inches - up to 24cm for winemilleri); i did not realize they were so large. Do you know the temp range for mirabllis - i can find very little information on the specifics. I think i could prefer the smaller fish. I had consider just dropping winemilleri all together and going small with cupid (there are certain advantages to a large school of say 15-20 cupid) - but mirabllis might be a happy middle ground. I'm presuming all these geo have very similar personalities so it is just a 'look' thing as to which are more colourful. Also is there a specific species you would recommend ? Hum one other negative of mirabillis might be that it seems most of the stock come from germany breeding group and inbreeding might be an issue.


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## Conort2 (30 Aug 2022)

anewbie said:


> Ok thanks. I guess the info on winemilleri in seriouslyfish is incorrect (they have 6 to 8 inches - up to 24cm for winemilleri); i did not realize they were so large. Do you know the temp range for mirabllis - i can find very little information on the specifics. I think i could prefer the smaller fish. I had consider just dropping winemilleri all together and going small with cupid (there are certain advantages to a large school of say 15-20 cupid) - but mirabllis might be a happy middle ground. I'm presuming all these geo have very similar personalities so it is just a 'look' thing as to which are more colourful. Also is there a specific species you would recommend ? Hum one other negative of mirabillis might be that it seems most of the stock come from germany breeding group and inbreeding might be an issue.


Just whatever species you prefer the look of really. Their care requirements are all similar with soft clean water being the main thing. Your set up will be perfect for whatever species you choose as none of these are what I would call a ‘specialist’ species. 

Cheers


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## dw1305 (30 Aug 2022)

Hi all,


Conort2 said:


> The guinacara sp in the trade would also be a good choice


I like these. The usual one available is _Guianacara sphenozona, _always sold as "_G. geayi"._

cheers Darrel


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## anewbie (30 Aug 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I like these. The usual one available is _Guianacara sphenozona, _always sold as "_G. geayi"._
> 
> cheers Darrel


Those and cupids and endless options. I will have to reflect on these different options for a week and the post a new possible stocking for additional feedback. Any opinion on hoplo cats Megalechis thoracata  fitting into the mix ?


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## Conort2 (30 Aug 2022)

anewbie said:


> Any opinion on hoplo cats Megalechis thoracata fitting into the mix ?


Can’t see them being an issue with your proposed stocking although they’re quite a greedy, bulky fish. I’d go for dianema as a more ‘gentle’ alternative, although it’s not my tank!

Cheers


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## anewbie (30 Aug 2022)

Conort2 said:


> Can’t see them being an issue with your proposed stocking although they’re quite a greedy, bulky fish. I’d go for dianema as a more ‘gentle’ alternative, although it’s not my tank!
> 
> Cheers


That is actually a very good  suggestion and one i will seriously consider after some reading; is there a big difference in species such as longibarbls or urostriatum?


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## Conort2 (30 Aug 2022)

anewbie said:


> That is actually a very good  suggestion and one i will seriously consider after some reading; is there a big difference in species such as longibarbls or urostriatum?


I’ve only kept urostriatum but I don’t believe there is any difference in the species except colouration.


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## anewbie (7 Sep 2022)

After some thought this is what I am thinking:
10 urostriatum (very concern that they require hardness which might make them unsuitable;  but i think seriouslyfish is incorrect)
20 sterbai (these are left over and won't be replaced)
2 apistogramma lineata (optional)
4 GBR (experiment)
30-40 rummynose
8-12 mirabllis (if not available then replace with neambi)
4 pseudohemiodon sp peru
2 to 4 Laetacara araguaiae or Dorsigera
some random pleco from (L204,L397,bn,L128) - probably try to limit it to 2 species and no more than 6 total - probably mostly L204 since read below:
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I'll probably scape the tank so 4 ft is dense plant and 4ft is open with some waver makers near the bottom on the open side for L204/mirabllis.
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Again target temp 82/TDS 50/GH 2-3/KH 1/PH whereever it falls probably upper 6/no co2
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The side with the mirabillis will have some parameter plants (jungle val and probably sword plants in the back corners with a couple of crypts here and there).

Thoughts ?


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## JeffK (7 Sep 2022)

I know it's a big tank, but that's a lot of different species. Wouldn't you want a bit less so you'd have something calm to look at? Most of your fish stay near the bottom too.

Also, I don't think you'll be running a tannin stained or a blackwater tank? Rummy nose tetras are nervous fish and without cover or darker water, you'll experience the same neck ache you'd have after watching a tennis game. 

In the end it's your choice, of course!


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## anewbie (7 Sep 2022)

JeffK said:


> I know it's a big tank, but that's a lot of different species. Wouldn't you want a bit less so you'd have something calm to look at? Most of your fish stay near the bottom too.
> 
> Also, I don't think you'll be running a tannin stained or a blackwater tank? Rummy nose tetras are nervous fish and without cover or darker water, you'll experience the same neck ache you'd have after watching a tennis game.
> 
> In the end it's your choice, of course!


How would you adjust the stocking ?


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## JeffK (8 Sep 2022)

Personally I wouldn't combine Geophagus with dwarfs. They either come from different biotopes and/or the Geo's would dominate over them. Plus, dwarfs (cichlids in general) generally don't mix well with Corydoras in an aquarium, because they do not understand territorial boundries and happily swim right back after being chased away.

In a brightly lit tank, I'd focus on a tetra from clear/white water rivers. One underrated fish I like is Hyphessobrycon megalopterus, but if you're more into rarer species, Hyphessobrycon procyon is a nice one. Of course, there are many others that would suit your tank.

I'd recommend something like:
Corydoras sterbai
Hyphessobrycon/Moenkhausia/Pyrrhulina sp. 
Geophagus sp.

I think this would be a solid starting point for you after which you could try and add some other fish that would suit well. 

Key is: less is more.


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## anewbie (8 Sep 2022)

JeffK said:


> Personally I wouldn't combine Geophagus with dwarfs. They either come from different biotopes and/or the Geo's would dominate over them. Plus, dwarfs (cichlids in general) generally don't mix well with Corydoras in an aquarium, because they do not understand territorial boundries and happily swim right back after being chased away.
> 
> In a brightly lit tank, I'd focus on a tetra from clear/white water rivers. One underrated fish I like is Hyphessobrycon megalopterus, but if you're more into rarer species, Hyphessobrycon procyon is a nice one. Of course, there are many others that would suit your tank.
> 
> ...


Can you suggest a true schooling tetra like rummynose that you think would be appropriate? I favor serape over black phantom for a lower level tetra but i'm not sure of a good active schooling option outside of rummynose.
-
If i drop the dwarf cichild but stick with the urostriatum; would a couple  chocolate cichild (Hypselecara temporalis) be an option or woudl they be too large for the tetra/cory? Conversely i suppose i could go with angels/festum - maybe 7 festums and 4 angels to 6 angels. 
-
So something like
20 sterbai
30 serape
10 urostriatum (these don't hang at the bottom)
7 festum 
6 angels
some fast moving schooling tetra at the top (what species?)
8-12 geo m/u.


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## Wookii (8 Sep 2022)

I’ve not got the experience of stocking a tank this size, but if it were mine, basing it around Congo tetra would be high on the list for me.


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## Conort2 (8 Sep 2022)

anewbie said:


> favor serape over black phantom


These are known as fin nippers albeit it is often because they are kept in too small numbers and apparently too warm. I’d go for red phantoms for a similar look but lower risk. I wouldn’t fancy chancing serapes with geophagus and their long streamers or angelfish. 

I think chocolate cichlids or the angelfish would be ok as an option. The dianema will spend most of their time in the bottom but do occasionally like perch abit higher up on hardscape and plants. 

Moenkhausia costae is a really strong schooler which would be a good option. The issue with most tetras once they realise they’re not at risk of being predated is they stop schooling. In fact most of my male hyphessobrycon are actually territorial. I find hemmigramus species to be abit more chilled and more schooling than hyphessobrycon. The choice of tetras now is massive so you just need to go with a species you like the look of really. 

It’s a massive tank and nearly all your suggestions are decent ones so it’s ultimately deciding what fish you like best and then work the rest of the stocking around them.

Cheers


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## anewbie (9 Sep 2022)

Conort2 said:


> These are known as fin nippers albeit it is often because they are kept in too small numbers and apparently too warm. I’d go for red phantoms for a similar look but lower risk. I wouldn’t fancy chancing serapes with geophagus and their long streamers or angelfish.
> 
> I think chocolate cichlids or the angelfish would be ok as an option. The dianema will spend most of their time in the bottom but do occasionally like perch abit higher up on hardscape and plants.
> 
> ...


I've been keeping serape with angels the past 2 years at (78 during winter 84 at summer) and they don't nip them; maybe i'm just lucky or it is how i scape the tank who knows.

Are chocolate cichilid going to prey on serape/black phantom/red phantoms/white fin rosy/... ? -- I'll see if Moenkhausia costae  are available; bit worried it will be warm for them. Not a tetra but the kubotai rasbora is the kind of fish i'm looking for - strong schooler (even when safe) and always near the top; obviously they are too small for this stocking as well as temp being unsuitable. I had thought rummy would be similar to them - sticking near the top and the 8 foot length would be favorable to their behavior.
-
The sister aquarium is 10x4 - and it is deciding if i want to put the angels/festum in that aquarium with the angels or this one. I'm leaning towards the geo/chocolate/cat fishes mentioned and a bunch of tetra and putting the angels/festum with the loaches and adding a couple of mid size dwarfs - probably lats. For that tank i will be going with a layout similar to what I did with the 120; but a bit more open areas in the front middle due to the increase in size (with most of the really dense planting on the 3 or 4 foot on both sides); what my serape do is mostly hang in the plants away from the angels:






Thanks for the comments.


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## Conort2 (9 Sep 2022)

anewbie said:


> Not a tetra but the kubotai rasbora is the kind of fish i'm looking for - strong schooler (even when safe) and always near the top;


Silver hatchet fish? Strong schooler, decent size and always at the top.


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## Conort2 (9 Sep 2022)

anewbie said:


> I've been keeping serape with angels the past 2 years at (78 during winter 84 at summer) and they don't nip them; maybe i'm just lucky or it is how i scape the tank who knows.


Maybe it’s just people keeping them in insufficient numbers.


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## anewbie (9 Sep 2022)

Conort2 said:


> Silver hatchet fish? Strong schooler, decent size and always at the top.


There is a large silver hatchet (I forget the name); but i worry about them being proficient and constant jumpers. Also do they actually school ?


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## Conort2 (9 Sep 2022)

anewbie said:


> There is a large silver hatchet (I forget the name); but i worry about them being proficient and constant jumpers. Also do they actually school ?


I think you might be talking about triportheus, they get around six inches or so. All hatches are great jumpers unfortunately.


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## JeffK (9 Sep 2022)

Pyrrhulina are upper middle level swimmers. P. brevis are quite good looking. 

Most schooling fish only school when they don't feel safe, as said above, and shoal when safe. I don't really think you should aim to create an environment where fish don't feel comfortable.


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## anewbie (9 Sep 2022)

JeffK said:


> Pyrrhulina are upper middle level swimmers. P. brevis are quite good looking.
> 
> Most schooling fish only school when they don't feel safe, as said above, and shoal when safe. I don't really think you should aim to create an environment where fish don't feel comfortable.


I was under the impression that rummy nose actively school even when safe but that was 2nd hand information.


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## anewbie (9 Sep 2022)

JeffK said:


> Pyrrhulina are upper middle level swimmers. P. brevis are quite good looking.
> 
> Most schooling fish only school when they don't feel safe, as said above, and shoal when safe. I don't really think you should aim to create an environment where fish don't feel comfortable.


I would think that Pyrrhulina are too small and likely to be eaten? P. brevis are also pretty small and a cold water fish.


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## JeffK (9 Sep 2022)

Pyrrhulina brevis grow larger than most 'normal' tetras. Around 8 cm. Most imports come from Peru, so I wouldn't worry about temperature. Maybe you're thinking of P. australis?

Of all the rummy nose tetras only Petitella georgiae is sometimes found in clear water, if I remember correctly. Hemigrammus rhodostomus and Hemigrammus bleheri (most commonly sold as rummy nose) are blackwater fish. 

I'd love to show you a video of them in a darker tank, because this one is still too brightly lit, but it might give an impression:


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## anewbie (9 Sep 2022)

JeffK said:


> Pyrrhulina brevis grow larger than most 'normal' tetras. Around 8 cm. Most imports come from Peru, so I wouldn't worry about temperature. Maybe you're thinking of P. australis?
> 
> Of all the rummy nose tetras only Petitella georgiae is sometimes found in clear water, if I remember correctly. Hemigrammus rhodostomus and Hemigrammus bleheri (most commonly sold as rummy nose) are blackwater fish.
> 
> I'd love to show you a video of them in a darker tank, because this one is still too brightly lit, but it might give an impression:



I misread your post there is a p. brevis that is a loach  Do you know much about Pyrrhulina spilota ? Also should i be concern that a chocolate cichild would eat these or go after sterbai cory?


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## JeffK (9 Sep 2022)

anewbie said:


> I misread your post there is a p. brevis that is a loach  Do you know much about Pyrrhulina spilota ? Also should i be concern that a chocolate cichild would eat these or go after sterbai cory?



To be honest, I have no idea. I don't really like keeping large fish. I kept P. scalare 'Rio Nanay' before, but nothing larger than that, so I can't really help you concerning chocolate cichlids (Hypselecara temporalis I think?).


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## anewbie (9 Sep 2022)

JeffK said:


> To be honest, I have no idea. I don't really like keeping large fish. I kept P. scalare 'Rio Nanay' before, but nothing larger than that, so I can't really help you concerning chocolate cichlids (Hypselecara temporalis I think?).


Yes that is the correct species; i might skip them doing so esp with the smaller geo will make things easier. Still wouldn't angelfishes eat the Pyrrhulina spilota - they don't look much larger than cardinals.


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## JeffK (9 Sep 2022)

I kept P. brevis with the P. scalare 'Rio Nanay', they were left alone and never in danger. They're quite stocky fish.

If you want to keep P. spilota with P. scalare, I think you're best off growing out the P. spilota and then focus on the angel fish. I don't think they'd prey on them. Higher bodied but smaller characins like Hyphessobrycon sp. are safe aswell.


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## anewbie (10 Sep 2022)

So something like
20 sterbai
14 urostriatum (these don't hang at the bottom)
7 festum
6 angels
8-12 geo m/u.
30 Pyrrhulina spilot
Some random plecos (mostly 6 inch or smaller; L204, L397, L128, ...)


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## JeffK (10 Sep 2022)

That should work, but go slowly. Although you have a big tank, especially cichlids all need their space.


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