# CO² Regulator Problem



## Mark Webb (17 Jan 2012)

Every day I set my regulator up just right and it runs for the few hours for the remainder of the day at the same level and switches off on the timed solenoid. The following day when the solenoid switches on, CO² is belting out at a high level in the bubble counter and it needs resetting again. This is happening on a daily basis.

Any ideas for a solution would be welcome  :?


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## sussex_cichlids (17 Jan 2012)

Hi mark

it well flow fast for the first few mins it just were the pressure has backed up mine dose the same for a few min after it comes on after about 5 min it settles to the right amount 

set reg to 2/2.5 bar then with needle valve set to your required BPS (bubbles per sec) you shouldn't need to adjust it every day 

set it up and leave it for for 20 mins see if it easy off im sure it will before touching it 

it will return to your setting after few mins


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## Mark Webb (17 Jan 2012)

sussex_cichlids said:
			
		

> Hi mark
> 
> it well flow fast for the first few mins it just were the pressure has backed up mine dose the same for a few min after it comes on after about 5 min it settles to the right amount
> 
> ...




Thank you. When I looked today this was 20 minutes after start up. The pressure is set to 26psi or 2kg/cm². Not sure what this converts to in bar?


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## hinch (17 Jan 2012)

1.8 bar ish


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## Mark Webb (17 Jan 2012)

So could the problem be caused by the low pressure? I didn't realise it could be adjusted?

My mistake, guage is actually reading 30psi (didn't look properly divisions are 5's and not 1's)


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (17 Jan 2012)

Mark

Was the gas still going at a great rate of knots after 20 mins or had it slowed down as per the previous day's set up.

Regards
paul.


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## Mark Webb (17 Jan 2012)

Still running at a great rate!


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## sussex_cichlids (17 Jan 2012)

Are you initial setting the system up

you will find first few days that there is fluctuations till you can get the right presure between the main valve and needle valve settled

you got to keep tweaking the main presure till it sit at 2/2.5 bar over next few days if it wont already stay at 2/2.5 bar

Now with you needle valve keep reducing this one till you get stable BPS you want check it after 3/4 hours and adjust again if needed then wait 3/4 hours again and adjust again if needed

Then leave it 24 hrs before solenoid opens check the main presure first see if that still 2/2.5 bar if not open main valve till that's 2/2.5 bar again turn it on an wait a few mins till it settles if it dose not settle

Adjust the nedel valve till you get the corect BPS again keep doing that over next few days you should dial it all in eventually


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## Mark Webb (17 Jan 2012)

Many thanks for that. I'll give it a try.


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## triumphcarnut (17 Jan 2012)

I am new to high tech aquariums  :text-imnewhere:  but am a hydraulic engineer by trade and the problem you are describing is a typical "pressure surge" and it can be difficult to control.
With the solenoid open you are setting a flow rate (bubble rate) through the needle valve and the solenoid valve at a nominal pressure drop across the needle valve and solenoid. When the solenoid closes the flow from the bottle through the regulator and across the needle valve becomes zero but the pressure between the solenoid and the regulator will build up to the setting of the regulator (pressure). When the solenoid opens again some time later the pressure built up discharges ( high flow rate) uncontrolled across the needle valve until the original flow rate / pressure drop is achieved. How fast this happens depends on the quality of the needle valve and the regulator. In some cases the "new" high pressure forces the needle valve and /or regulator open and so the original setting is never achieved)
If your solenoid is placed any distance away from your needle valve the effect will be worse and the same applies if your needle valve is placed a distance away from the bottle regulator.
In the picture below all the valves and things are at a minimum distance from the regulator and so the resulting surge is much less (might not be noticeable). I guess you need to try to achieve the minimum distance between the needle / solenoid valves and the regulator.
You can try to balance the settings as described by sussex_cichlids but you should record some settings for yourself. ie so that you can see if the regulator is fluctuating or not when the gas is racing.
 Hope this isnt confusing    

Hope this helps 

If you still struggle It may be that you have to only just crack the bottle tap before the regulator to reduce the flow from the bottle and let the regulator regulate the pressure at a lower flow.
Neil


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (17 Jan 2012)

Mark 

What sort of reg are you using - one like the above or a none adjustable one like a JBL .

Regards
Paul.


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## Mark Webb (17 Jan 2012)

Neil, thanks very much for taking the time to write that detailed explanation, it makes sense but not sure if it can be overcome?

Paul the regulator is a Sunwell. And I have now noticed that there is an increase in the regulator pressure when the solenoid switches off. Its running at 30psi and as you can see when off it jumps to 45psi. This would possibly account for the surprisingly high CO² usage (5kg in 16 days)


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## sussex_cichlids (17 Jan 2012)

Mark Webb said:
			
		

> Its running at 30psi and as you can see when off it jumps to 45psi. This would possibly account for the surprisingly high CO² usage (5kg in 16 days)



You shouldn't get a jump of presure on the bottle presure gauge that should only move once the bottle starts to empty and it will drop slowly for such a sudden change in pressure it could be regulator problem 

if it was a leak or the length of pipe your using between the diffuser and bottle it would upset the the regulator presure gauge not the bottle presure gauge and that would drop slowly that's what got me thinking it could be regulator problem


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (17 Jan 2012)

Mark Webb said:
			
		

> I have now noticed that there is an increase in the regulator pressure when the solenoid switches off. Its running at 30psi and as you can see when off it jumps to 45psi.




Mark 

Switch off 45 psi = 3.38 bar & switch on 30 psi = 2.07 bar.

I think that the needle valve is trying or being used to control the high line pressure and it just cannot cope with that pressure so it virtually dumping the gas.

I would assume that the gauge on the left hand side of the reg. is bottle pressure, the top gauge is line pressure, when the solenoid switch off you will see the pressure increase and vice versa when the reg. open. I have checked my gauges (JBL Reg.) - my line pressure when switched off is approx. 1.50 bar or 22 psi and when switch on its showing about 0.80 bar or 12 psi - this equates to about 4 / 5 bps. Is the reg. adjustable ? if so I think you need to adjust the reg so the top gauge shows a line pressure of 25 psi / 1.75 bar or no greater than 30 psi / 2.07 bar when switched off and your final adjustment to obtained the bps adjust by using the needle valve. 

Regards
paul.


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## hinch (17 Jan 2012)

if the one at the top is line pressure thats reading just under 50 psi which would be higher than working pressure. so I would assume top is bottle pressure and left is line pressure. which is miles too high for a line pressure (even worse if you look at the top)


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## Mark Webb (17 Jan 2012)

Thanks guys. 
The left hand guage is the bottle pressure and the top is line pressure. The only possible adjustment is the large chrome nut on top, but that doesn't look like it adjusts to me?


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## hinch (17 Jan 2012)

then you're running bottle pressure 50 psi and line pressure at like 45 psi seems a tad high to me


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## triumphcarnut (18 Jan 2012)

given those bottle readings I now suspect your regulator isnt regulating. The bottle pressure and regulated pressure are so close to being the same the gas is just being dumped when the solenoid opens.... as you are aware because the gas last no time.
Sounds like new regulator time and try to get an adjustable one


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## sussex_cichlids (18 Jan 2012)

Grab a spanner to adjust the main valve turn that anti clockwise till its closed* if it starts to rises turn the main valve* clockwise till its closed

Now open the needle valve all the way and  turn on solenoid to dump the gas in the line you should see the regulator/line presure start to drop wait till this reads 0 psi 

Now close needle valve fully 

Now you can turn the main valve clockwise till the regulator/line presure reads 35psi that's about 2.5 bar

now you got the presure regulated you can start to set the BPS you want  you can use the instructions i posted early to dial the BPS in over next few days


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## Mark Webb (18 Jan 2012)

Thank you for this. There is a screw into the side just where your arrow is. I have tried it both ways but it is not changing the bottle pressure? If I undo the screw gas starts to escape from it. I dont think the large nut on top is an adjustment??

This is a new regulator, bought a year ago but not used until now.


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## sussex_cichlids (18 Jan 2012)

try this if you unsure cut you cable tie holding the bottle open so that there only a small amount of presure try that big nut anti clock wise it dose look adjustable if it turns without hissing then follow the instructions above you will get it worked out eventually


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## Mark Webb (18 Jan 2012)

Thanks I will. It is VERY tight.


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## sussex_cichlids (18 Jan 2012)

Mark Webb said:
			
		

> Thanks I will. It is VERY tight.



Yea mine is 

Give it few turns just till you can feel it wont go any more that should be fully closed now


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## Mark Webb (18 Jan 2012)

Okay, unscrewed okay but no difference. Having taken off the nut there is a spring and spigot inside. It would appear that screwed in (as it was initially) fully is minimum pressure. Would you agree?


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## sussex_cichlids (18 Jan 2012)

i wouldn't of undone it all the way just few turns to see if this had any affect on the line presure gage  if there a spring in it put all back together as it came out tighten it up 

it dose look adjustable if it has a spring and a valve inside you just got to find whats closed and open going to be bit of experimenting as all regulators are different

being able to adjust the bottle presure here is the main point of the regulator so if not adjustable here not sure how it can regulate a bottle presure from 50 bar to 2/2.5bar 

the needle valve is only for the fine adjustments most welding regulator don't have needle as they don't require fine adjustments they regulate the presure on the main valve 






Put it back together and try and find open and closed without taking it off you should find it it may only be like 3 turns in or out to open or close once you got that then you can start to set it up


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## Mark Webb (18 Jan 2012)

Many thanks for your help.


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## sussex_cichlids (20 Jan 2012)

how you getting on mark did you work it out mate


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## Mark Webb (20 Jan 2012)

sussex_cichlids said:
			
		

> how you getting on mark did you work it out mate




Thank you for asking. I havent been able to change the pressure. I have emailed the supplier but not much help so far. Surely the guage pressure must be adjustable?


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## sussex_cichlids (20 Jan 2012)

Did you put it all back together tighten it as tight as it will go with the spanner without over tightening it 

i was looking at your pictures of it in bits of the spring and the nut with the pin on it and thinking about it a bit more to close that value the pin will have to be all the way in 

so if you can nip it up tight without over tightening it turn gas on see if the line pressure gauge rises if not then you got the valve closed 

then you can set it up


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## Mark Webb (20 Jan 2012)

sussex_cichlids said:
			
		

> Did you put it all back together tighten it as tight as it will go with the spanner without over tightening it
> 
> i was looking at your pictures of it in bits of the spring and the nut with the pin on it and thinking about it a bit more to close that value the pin will have to be all the way in
> 
> ...



Thanks SC, Yes I have done that. I wasn't around yesterday when gas fired up but I was today and it started up okay and has remained at a steady level, so I will see how it goes tomorrow.


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## sussex_cichlids (20 Jan 2012)

Glad to hear you got it sorted now


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