# Water report



## Lee iley (16 Aug 2022)

Afternoon  all,

Just need a little help on my recent water report.  Water is from United Utilities. 

Mod soft.
Hardness Clarke 5.74 (is this classed as GH)

Also on the report I have 2 different lines.
 1 Alkalinity as CaCO3/30.2 ( is this my KH)
2 Hardness total as CaCO3/59 ( what does this mean) I am justvtrying to work out if tank water is suitable for the following critters a already have in my tank. 

Amano shrimp/blue/cherry shrimp.
Pygmy corrys / Green neon rasboras and cardinal tetras. The tank has been set up now for about 14weeks. Over the last few days of very hot weather we have had here in the norwest I have been doing daily 40% water changes as the tank temp was pushing 28c. I have lost 1 amano shrimp 2 blue shrimp 1 cherry shrimp and 2 pygmy corrys. Just wondering what may have caused it. Any help would be great. I havnt tested my water as I don't have test kits.

Cheers Lee


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## Courtneybst (16 Aug 2022)

Lee iley said:


> Afternoon  all,
> 
> Just need a little help on my recent water report.  Water is from United Utilities.
> 
> ...


Hey Lee,

I would suggest getting some kind of test kit otherwise it's just a guessing game. You need to eliminate things that it isn't at least.

In terms of the hardness of your water, I wouldn't be concerned. I have kept/currently keep all of the above species in much harder water than that.

I know 28c is on the warm side but I wouldn't be worried. Most tropical fish can handle that easily. Just provide some surface agitation.


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## tam (16 Aug 2022)

Adding an airline usually helps with hot weather/water. Mines been running about 29 with no issues with amano/cherry shrimp but I run air in when it's hot.


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## Lee iley (16 Aug 2022)

Courtneybst said:


> Hey Lee,
> 
> I would suggest getting some kind of test kit otherwise it's just a guessing game. You need to eliminate things that it isn't at least.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply, yea I need to get some test kits so I can have a ball park figure to work on. I try and keep my tank temp at around the 23 mark its currently at 25 as its still warm here. 

Cheers Lee


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## Lee iley (16 Aug 2022)

That's a good shout, thanks tam


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## dw1305 (16 Aug 2022)

Hi all, 
I'm sorry to hear of your losses. 

I agree with the others, it might <"be low oxygen"> from the hot water(dependent upon your set up), but it could also be higher than normal chlorine dosing (possibly as "chloramine") from the water change water. I keep Pygmy Corydoras, and my tanks have been a fair bit warmer than that, without any problems.

I'm guessing that harder water would be better for the <"Cherry (and Amano) shrimps">.



Courtneybst said:


> I would suggest getting some kind of test kit otherwise it's just a guessing game.


I'd go the other way around, test kits are a guessing game and the <"report from United Utilities is accurate">, although this one looks interesting.  


Lee iley said:


> Mod soft.
> Hardness Clarke 5.74 (is this classed as GH)
> 
> Also on the report I have 2 different lines.
> ...


We've been <"down this route before">, but for newer "readers". "Hardness Clarke (eDH)" is just a <"different unit from German Hardness (dGH)">, but you can <"easily convert one into the other"> and in your case 5.74 Clarke = *4.61 dGH* 

<"Alkalinity can be converted to dKH">, using the information in <"Larry Frank's Krib article">.  The two numbers you list ("30.2" & "59") are a bit strange, can you put a screen shot of the actual hardness report bit up?

The 59 mg /L (ppm) hardness total for CaCO3 can be divided by 17.86 mg/L CaCO3 to give dGH *3.30. *It could be the other 1.30 units of dGH is magnesium (Mg). You should have the same amount of dKH (3.30), but if you divide 30.2 by 17.86 you get ~1.7, so something doesn't quite add up.

cheers Darrel


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## Lee iley (16 Aug 2022)

Hi darrel,

Thanks for the reply I will out up some screen shots now.

Cheers Lee


dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> I'm sorry to hear of your losses.
> 
> I agree with the others, it might <"be low oxygen"> from the hot water(dependent upon your set up), but it could also be higher than normal chlorine dosing (possibly as "chloramine") from the water change water. I keep Pygmy Corydoras, and my tanks have been a fair bit warmer than that, without any problems.
> ...


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## dw1305 (16 Aug 2022)

Hi all,


Lee iley said:


> Thanks for the reply I will out up some screen shots now.


Thanks for that @Lee iley. Yes, that makes more sense, the alkalinity and hardness values will be based on the average, rather than the minimum value., so 30.2 becomes 40.6 and 59 becomes 82.

If you take the 82 and divide it by 17.86 you get *dGH = 4.60**, so much nearer the value you got from United Utilities.

* corrected, Excel had decided that I wanted 18.86 when I dragged the cell across.

cheers Darrel


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## Lee iley (16 Aug 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Thanks for that @Lee iley. Yes, that makes more sense, the alkalinity and hardness values will be based on the average, rather than the minimum value., so 30.2 becomes 40.6 and 59 becomes 82.
> 
> ...


Thanks darrel, so I can work off my water report rather than do testing? How come you devide that by 17.86? So my water hardness (5.67) from the water report once I have change that to German Clark is this my GH? Which one do I work off to get a rough estimate for KH? 

Cheers Lee


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## dw1305 (16 Aug 2022)

Hi all,


Lee iley said:


> so I can work off my water report rather than do testing?


Yes.

You can actually test for alkalinity (~dKH) reasonably <"easily by titration">, but dGH is much more problematic.


Lee iley said:


> How come you devide that by 17.86?


It is a really strange calculation,


> ........ By definition, 1dGH = 10 mg/litre CaO
> Atomic Weight Ca = 40, O = 16, CaO = 56
> So 10 mg/liter CaO contains 40/56 *10 = 7.143 mg/liter of Ca
> By definition ppm Ca is not for elemental calcium but for ppm CaCO3.
> ...


We will have our own UKAPS article on <"water hardness fairly soon">, but in the mean time all the workings are in Larry Frank's article at the Krib <"Water Hardness">.


Lee iley said:


> So my water hardness (5.67) from the water report once I have change that to German Clark is this my GH?


Yes. You can just use the Lenntech converter: <"Hardness convertor">.


Lee iley said:


> Which one do I work off to get a rough estimate for KH?


Because both dGH and dKH normally come from limestone (CaCO3), you usually have a ratio of 1 : 1 dGH (the Ca++) : dKH (the CO3 as 2HCO3- ).

In this case 40.6 / 17.86 only comes to 2.27 (dKH) so something still isn't quite right. It may be that the alkainity value was from a softer water sample than the one the dGH value was measured from.



cheers Darrel


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## _Maq_ (16 Aug 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Because both dGH and dKH come from limestone (CaCO3), you usually have a ratio of 1 : 1 dGH (the Ca++) : dKH (the CO3 as 2HCO3- ).


It's *the definition of traditional units which is derived from the same compound* (CaCO3). But Ca + Mg content (= water hardness) is in principle not dependent on HCO3- content (major constituent of alkalinity).
Take East-African lakes as an example: Alkalinity is high, but Ca+Mg content is relatively low, while the water is full of Na.
And vice versa, you can easily increase water hardness with CaCl2 without any increase in alkalinity.


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## Lee iley (16 Aug 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Thanks for that @Lee iley. Yes, that makes more sense, the alkalinity and hardness values will be based on the average, rather than the minimum value., so 30.2 becomes 40.6 and 59 becomes 82.
> 
> ...


Hi darrel, 

Thanks once again for your help, I'm starting to get my head round it all now. So to get my KH reading I look at the Alkalinity CaCO3 on my water report and devide the average reading by 17.86? Can I get my GH reading  from my hardness Clarke on the 1st page of the water report and also from the Hardness total CaCO3 box also?  So my soft water parameters will these be better for crystal red shrimp rather than cherry/amano shrimp?

Cheers Lee


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## dw1305 (16 Aug 2022)

Hi all,


_Maq_ said:


> Take East-African lakes as an example: Alkalinity is high, but Ca+Mg content is relatively low, while the water is full of Na.
> And vice versa, you can easily increase water hardness with CaCl2 without any increase in alkalinity.


Yes, we talk about <"different water chemistry">, both in terms of <"water hardness"> and <"fertilisers">.


Lee iley said:


> So to get my KH reading I look at the Alkalinity CaCO3 on my water report and devide the average reading by 17.86? Can I get my GH reading from my hardness Clarke on the 1st page of the water report and also from the Hardness total CaCO3 box also?


You can. They actually give <"you the same value"> dGH = 4.61


dw1305 said:


> If you take the 82 and divide it by 17.86 you get *dGH = 4.60**, so much nearer the value you got from United Utilities.





Lee iley said:


> So my soft water parameters will these be better for crystal red shrimp rather than cherry/amano shrimp?


I've only ever kept Cherry Shrimps, but I believe that Crystal Red Shrimps like softer water.

cheers Darrel


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## dw1305 (25 Oct 2022)

Hi all,


dw1305 said:


> We will have our own UKAPS article on water hardness fairly soon, but in the mean time all the workings are in Larry Frank's article at the Krib <"Water Hardness">.


It has arrived, thanks to @_Maq_ : <"Some handy facts about water">.

cheers Darrel


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