# Betta's And Their Tanks?



## Smells Fishy (27 May 2017)

I'm toying with the idea of getting into nano tanks and Betta's are a good choice from what I can gather. I'm just a bit stuck on the ethical view on what there tank size should be. The smallest acceptable tank size is 3.8L from what I've read, how stupid is that. I want the tank to be just for the Betta and some snails to help keep the plants clean. If you haven't seen Black Dragon Betta's yet go and search them, they have a beautiful caudal fin. I saw one in my LFS not long ago for £12 so since its not super expensive I think I'll go for that one. I know bigger is better but ideally I would want the tank to be small its just there's such a huge range out there its very hard for me to make a decision. So far I like this tank that holds 15L https://www.amazon.co.uk/Litre-Mini...F8&qid=1495881970&sr=8-30&keywords=nano+tanks it seems like a great deal but obviously I want to aquascape it so there is potential for it to only hold 10L. Not to sure about this one since its a big price jump https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tetra-Aqua...d=1495922834&sr=1-12&keywords=tetra+fish+tank but it's 30L and unique. Or this one https://www.amazon.co.uk/Interpet-E...qid=1495923445&sr=1-13&keywords=interpet+nano which is costly for such little litres in my eyes and it doesn't look like it has a cover. 

If there's any other tanks you think will be worth me looking at or anything else let me know.

Cheers.


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## Nelson (28 May 2017)

I know what the general opinion is about Betta's and small tanks,but it just doesn't seem right to me .
I got one of these for my wife's Betta https://www.amazon.co.uk/Superfish-Home-25XL-Aquarium-Black/dp/B00NBDY4XC
but once planted,seemed too small .
So now have one of these https://www.amazon.co.uk/Superfish-545655-SuperFish-Home-Aquarium/dp/B00I4GHSYI
You can find them cheaper than that though .


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## Henry (28 May 2017)

The Superfish Home range, and the Aquaone AquaNano range are both good choices. Make sure whatever you go for has adjustable flow, for the sake of the betta.


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## dean (28 May 2017)

The AAGB  (Anabantoid Association of Great Britain) say 5 litres is the minimum size for a permanent home 
Which is ok as mostly all imported Bettas have spent all their life so far  in a whisky bottle in less than 500ml 

I've been to a few betta farms in Thailand and seen for myself how they are bred and kept 

The only thing I'd like to say is that they really struggle with high flow rates (especially the long fin breeds) and surface movement 
So please think about the fishes requirements  

They breath atmospheric air 
So a shallow tank is best 

They sleep as close to the surface as possible, I've had loads who like to sleep on a ledge just 5mm below the surface 

ammano shrimp make good companions 
Red cherry work too but don't expect many babies to survive 
You could buy low grade ones that have lost the red and let them breed to feed him 

Also they predators and as such are intelligent (compared to guppies) so they need stimulation 
Give them live daphnia to hunt 
place a small mirror on the glass for 5 minutes a day for him to flare at there's loads on YouTube about exercising Bettas 

See how much you can pick up a tank at a decent lfs I like 12x8x8" or 18x10x10" and a hob filter 


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## Smells Fishy (28 May 2017)

dean said:


> The AAGB  (Anabantoid Association of Great Britain) say 5 litres is the minimum size for a permanent home
> Which is ok as mostly all imported Bettas have spent all their life so far  in a whisky bottle in less than 500ml
> 
> I've been to a few betta farms in Thailand and seen for myself how they are bred and kept
> ...



Cheers for all the good info. 

It's interesting that you've been to fish farms, so do they do sort of tours or let in the general public? As If they are kept in whisky bottles how would you even get the fish in it tho? The bottle lip would only be like an inch hmmm. I can sure think of more practical ways of them being farmed.


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## Nelson (28 May 2017)




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## Smells Fishy (28 May 2017)

Nelson said:


>




Did you understand any of that because I didn't. Now that is seriously shot through especially when they walk over the bottles! But when they pore them out and then handle them, its not gentle at all, it's sad to see. I wonder where the first origin is for those Betta's, well its obvious its the breeder. What I mean is if these peoples set up is like this then what is the breeders going to be like? A lot more madness no doubt.

I don't mind the 25L looks good but its a shame the corners aren't round. How did you find the filter and can you move it from the middle? I have it in my head I want an aquaponics filter that's why I asked. The light looks really cool as well.

Cheers.


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## Nelson (28 May 2017)

I've cut the filter/heater box out.
The filter is too powerful for a betta,but I've pointed it towards the left side and it's fine.
A bit messy .


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## Smells Fishy (28 May 2017)

Nelson said:


> I've cut the filter/heater box out.
> The filter is too powerful for a betta,but I've pointed it towards the left side and it's fine.
> A bit messy .
> 
> View attachment 105611 View attachment 105612



I'm gonna shop around some more and see what turns up. Anyway the tanks a wee bit expensive for me if I want this Betta thing to happen any time soon.


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## Nelson (28 May 2017)

Smells Fishy said:


> I'm gonna shop around some more and see what turns up.


There's a lot of nano tanks out there.I'm sure you'll find what you want .


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## dean (28 May 2017)

Smells Fishy said:


> Cheers for all the good info.
> 
> It's interesting that you've been to fish farms, so do they do sort of tours or let in the general public? As If they are kept in whisky bottles how would you even get the fish in it tho? The bottle lip would only be like an inch hmmm. I can sure think of more practical ways of them being farmed.



You have to know someone to get you into a true breeders farm, luckily I have contacts all over the world where fish are concerned 

I'm 6'2" 18 stone and when I was told to walk across 1000's of bottles to find the type of fish I wanted was very scary,  I'm easily double the weight of the average Thai 

The life cycle starts in a small plastic type washing up bowl where a male is put with a few bits of plant then one evening the chosen female is added 
Breeding usually happens in the first 24 hours, the female is removed to leave the male to look after his 100's of kids 
Once they are free swimming and eating well they are put into ponds (2-3ft round concrete vats) to grow on 
They are netted regularly and those that are found to be males are then put into a bottle and moved out to the area where they stay until approx 3 months old 
Being fed live daphnia - if there's no daphnia then it's scrambled egg and as a last resort commercial fish pellets as the first two are free





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## Smells Fishy (29 May 2017)

dean said:


> You have to know someone to get you into a true breeders farm, luckily I have contacts all over the world where fish are concerned
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nice one I'll make sure to hire you for my next expedition lol.


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## dean (30 May 2017)

Found my photos from Thailand here's me sat on fish in bottles


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## CMac (31 May 2017)

I have always thought about the Dennerle Nano cubes for a betta if I could have another tank. There is a choice of sizes (10/20/30L) you can buy tank only or complete set up depending on your budget.

CMac


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## Smells Fishy (31 May 2017)

CMac said:


> I have always thought about the Dennerle Nano cubes for a betta if I could have another tank. There is a choice of sizes (10/20/30L) you can buy tank only or complete set up depending on your budget.
> 
> CMac



Yeah I did have a look at them. I have considered getting one since I like what they stand for with there fish food but since my budget is small it would be tank only and it gets expensive adding all the right equipment yourself (well for me it is).


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## AverageWhiteBloke (31 May 2017)

I was going to suggest one of our sponsors but looking at their site their prices seemed to have increased considerably! Glad I bought mine a while back when they were about £20 cheaper which puts them in the same bracket of the ones you were looking at. They did have a 10% off for ukaps members at one point, not sure if this is still running, obviously no filter or heater with them though.
Am I the only one who felt a bit uncomfortable watching that video? Yeah I know it happens but still. Back in the day I used to breed fighters, they were my favourite fish. They live in the wild in puddles with low oxygen so this tends to make people thin they can survive in anything, nevertheless I still think you should provide the best conditions you can for the fish. just because it can survive doesn't mean it shouldn’t thrive.

I tended to keep mine in whatever small tank I had lying around with a perspex or glass lid. I read somewhere that it's best to have a lid so that the air above the water is warm and humid. I read that when they come to the surface taking a gulp of cold air can be bad for them, not sure how true that is. I've always run my tanks with an air driven sponge filter, keeps them from getting swirled around in the tank plus breaks the water surface to prevent scum making it easier for them to surface for air. 

Another thing I did which worked quite well was to get a maybe 600mm tank and divide it into three sections using tank dividers so they can't see each other. I suppose frosted glass or perspex would have the same result. You can then run three sponge filter just off one air pump. One light covers the whole tank and a heater in the middle section.

With regards to shrimp, don't know about Amanos but RCS in some cases is a no-no. I do hear of people who have them living happily together but IME if they get a taste for them they will turn hunting them down into a full time sport.

I gave up on breeding and used them now and again as a feature fish in some setups, the exercise was to see if I could get a really bright red strain by in-breeding good coloured fish but to be honest it didn't seem to matter, the young were various colours that came off the parents. I even had short finned brown coloured ones like females that I had inadvertently dropped in my community tank which later on turned out to be males! The breeding of them is fairly easy and was that successful that I had to give up because I couldn’t give the fish away. You need to keep an eye on them in a breeding situation, wait to the male already has a bubble nest and drop in a fat female but get ready to get her out sharp once they've spawned. The male will destroy her to protect fry and eggs and also if he hasn't prepared the nest. 

Lovely fish, if you could keep several males together I'd keep them again in large numbers.


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## Smells Fishy (31 May 2017)

This tank has just popped on my radar https://www.aquasabi.com/brand/aquael/aquael-shrimp-set-smart-black , it's a nicely made video and I like the jamin\happy aquascape music (its a new genre of music I just  made up). I know it's intended for shrimp but it doesn't really matter, what matters is you get a decent light, glass lid, heater and filter for cheap. At aquasabi its out of stock but this site has it even cheaper. http://www.zoofast.co.uk/aqua-el-shrimp-set-smart-pg-16431.html The heater worries me a bit tho seems a bit iffy. Has anyone had any experience with this tank?


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## Smells Fishy (31 May 2017)

Just found an even better price but for the next size up!


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## Smells Fishy (31 May 2017)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> I was going to suggest one of our sponsors but looking at their site their prices seemed to have increased considerably! Glad I bought mine a while back when they were about £20 cheaper which puts them in the same bracket of the ones you were looking at. They did have a 10% off for ukaps members at one point, not sure if this is still running, obviously no filter or heater with them though.
> Am I the only one who felt a bit uncomfortable watching that video? Yeah I know it happens but still. Back in the day I used to breed fighters, they were my favourite fish. They live in the wild in puddles with low oxygen so this tends to make people thin they can survive in anything, nevertheless I still think you should provide the best conditions you can for the fish. just because it can survive doesn't mean it shouldn’t thrive.
> 
> I tended to keep mine in whatever small tank I had lying around with a perspex or glass lid. I read somewhere that it's best to have a lid so that the air above the water is warm and humid. I read that when they come to the surface taking a gulp of cold air can be bad for them, not sure how true that is. I've always run my tanks with an air driven sponge filter, keeps them from getting swirled around in the tank plus breaks the water surface to prevent scum making it easier for them to surface for air.
> ...



Nice one good to know you've breed betta's. Yeah betta 's are turning out to be my new favorite fish.  They seem like a very niche fish to  breed and that makes me like them even more. Lucky PFK mag are doing an article about Betta breeding next month. I would like to try but I'm Just worried about how many males I could potentially get from one spawn, not sure I'm up for housing a 100 males separately. How many did you have to deal with?


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## AverageWhiteBloke (31 May 2017)

From an average spawning I would probably end up after losses with about 40/50 fish maybe a third being males. At the time I could give away to a few friends locally a few and there were 3 small LFS which would happily take them off my hands. Since P@H opened round my way we are down to one LFS who now bizarrely has a policy of not taking in fish based on they need quarantined and they were sick of people bringing fish back because they weren't getting on with other fish in the tank. I have explained that I've been dealing with them 20 years and all my fish are healthy but there you go. If I had a pet shop and local breeders brought their results to me I'd be over the moon from a pure profit, locally kept in local tap water and environmentally friendly point of view not getting dragged around motorways in wagons. No fish farms or taken from the wild and fish that should be kept with their parents if that's what they should be naturally so the fry learn those parenting skills rather than being artificially raised to keep numbers up.

As it stands as interesting as it is I don't breed fish intentionally any more because I have no where to house the offspring.

I don't think think there is much need to read into betta breeding, just add water  as you've seen the fish are pretty much bullet proof. Ideally I would say softish water more for the eggs than the fish. I used tanks with no gravel which was easier to keep clean by syphoning off food remains etc and when fry were free swimming the baby brine shrimp would sink to the bottom and the fry would hoover them up. A sponge filter which collects bits and pieces for the fry to graze on, doesn't cause too much surface agitation breaking up the bubble nest and adds a bit of o2. A few floating plants and a bit of wood with hidey holes in with a bit of java fern or similar tied to it. The bit of wood or any hidey hole is important as the male is extremely aggressive towards females when done with her for the want of a better phrase.

Firstly I would let the male build a decent bubble nest, add the female who will keep hovering around under the nest but gets chased away until the male is happy with it and usually they would spawn that night or next morning. Soon as the spawning is over get the female out and usually 2/3 days later the fry are free swimming and leaving the nest. Male will continuously catch them and spit them back but you need to judge a time most fry are free swimming and lure the male with some food to take his mind of parenting and get him out sharpish as well. Sometimes if you don't net him first time he can panic and start troughing his own young. From then it's baby brine shrimp and fine dried foods but they pretty much take to most food straight away.

Oddly I found Betta males are fine together in the same tank even when they are clearly semi adults with full finnage. They only get aggressive towards each other if they are separated and reintroduced into another tank.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (31 May 2017)

Just realised I never linked the sponsor in my previous post. https://www.biotopia-uk.com/aquarium-and-light-set


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## Smells Fishy (31 May 2017)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> From an average spawning I would probably end up after losses with about 40/50 fish maybe a third being males. At the time I could give away to a few friends locally a few and there were 3 small LFS which would happily take them off my hands. Since P@H opened round my way we are down to one LFS who now bizarrely has a policy of not taking in fish based on they need quarantined and they were sick of people bringing fish back because they weren't getting on with other fish in the tank. I have explained that I've been dealing with them 20 years and all my fish are healthy but there you go. If I had a pet shop and local breeders brought their results to me I'd be over the moon from a pure profit, locally kept in local tap water and environmentally friendly point of view not getting dragged around motorways in wagons. No fish farms or taken from the wild and fish that should be kept with their parents if that's what they should be naturally so the fry learn those parenting skills rather than being artificially raised to keep numbers up.
> 
> As it stands as interesting as it is I don't breed fish intentionally any more because I have no where to house the offspring.
> 
> ...



Interesting. So why is soft water important for the eggs? Your right about them being bulletproof, it's a tough one to call tho, who's more harder Betta's or goldfish? I would say goldfish because I once watched a YouTube video of a goldfish rescue, some person put up for sale a 50L or something like it filled with big common goldies, murky water it was just bad. You know what here's the link. It's sad but a good video, glad I watched it.


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## dean (31 May 2017)

The aquael shrimp tanks are good I have two of them 


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## AverageWhiteBloke (31 May 2017)

Smells Fishy said:


> Interesting. So why is soft water important for the eggs? Your right about them being bulletproof, it's a tough one to call tho, who's more harder Betta's or goldfish? I would say goldfish because I once watched a YouTube video of a goldfish rescue, some person put up for sale a 50L or something like it filled with big common goldies, murky water it was just bad. You know what here's the link. It's sad but a good video, glad I watched it.



That's why I said "I would say" soft water. I have to admit this was a bit of an assumption. I have soft water coming out of my tap at around 39tds. I haven't had any issues with breeding any soft water fish including discus with nothing more than tap water. 
I have read about people who managed to spawn some soft water species but the eggs weren't viable because the water was too hard.
Most fish are quite adaptable to different water chemistry as long as the change is gradual but I'm not sure if this also applies to the eggs. They can't adapt if you like.
So based on in the wild these fish would live in muddy puddles in rice fields and ditches with river run off and rain water combined with decomposing leaf litter and very little mineral content plus the success I have personally achieved with them I would suggest soft water would be beneficial although I've no doubt there will be people who have had success with harder water. 
The fish have been in the game for a very long time so they may be adaptable to lots of conditions. 

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## Smells Fishy (2 Jun 2017)

I've been iffy regarding this whole idea now because I'm came to the conclusion that I'm conning myself. I've recently bought a brand new Aqua one Aspire 130 + cabinet but the reason I'm not doing anything with it atm is because the whole process has been a big hassle with messed up deliveries and the cabinet is a load of crap. It didn't come with all the screws to make it but I tried anyway to get a feel for it and I'm fairly sure it has a few factory faults because parts didn't seem straight when added together and screw holes were drilled to deep. It's crossed my mind a few times to just get rid of it all and I suppose that's why I've been looking else where. It's a pretty radical approach but I think I'm gonna just get a carpenter/joiner to make it for me. Then I can get on with making a nice underwater garden.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (2 Jun 2017)

Shame that, I know the feeling. Most of the flat pack cabinets are low quality that I've came across. Having said that I'm surprised with aqua one, I had a AR850 for years and the quality was and still is great, looks like new. Unfortunately it didn't go with my decor so I bought a TMC signature in Glacier white. Not so good, the first one that came was damaged in transit and the second one had a few ropey bits on the lamination. Because I had two of them I selected the best bits from both boxes but there was panels as equally crap as each other so I just had to tolerate it. It's been set up about 12 months now and the door doesn't line up squarely with the carcass which I'm assuming is because the cabinet itself must be twisting slightly under the weight and there's a few areas on the front where water has ran down the glass and caused a few bubbles and lifting on the laminate.

Another option you may consider, something that I will probably do next time is to buy a normal domestic cabinet and strengthen it up inside to take the weight. They are usually better finished, have more choice in finishes to match your deco and who cares what the inside looks like as long as it does the job.


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## Smells Fishy (2 Jun 2017)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Shame that, I know the feeling. Most of the flat pack cabinets are low quality that I've came across. Having said that I'm surprised with aqua one, I had a AR850 for years and the quality was and still is great, looks like new. Unfortunately it didn't go with my decor so I bought a TMC signature in Glacier white. Not so good, the first one that came was damaged in transit and the second one had a few ropey bits on the lamination. Because I had two of them I selected the best bits from both boxes but there was panels as equally crap as each other so I just had to tolerate it. It's been set up about 12 months now and the door doesn't line up squarely with the carcass which I'm assuming is because the cabinet itself must be twisting slightly under the weight and there's a few areas on the front where water has ran down the glass and caused a few bubbles and lifting on the laminate.
> 
> Another option you may consider, something that I will probably do next time is to buy a normal domestic cabinet and strengthen it up inside to take the weight. They are usually better finished, have more choice in finishes to match your deco and who cares what the inside looks like as long as it does the job.



Yeah next time I plan on buying a nice big tank I won't be buying the matching cabinet. I mean this tank has curved corners but the cabinet hasn't got curved corners, the picture made it look like it did. I'll probably try and do something like you with next time round.

Imagine how tricky it would be to build the cabinet for a tank like the Aquience Bow Front 1800. I wouldn't know but I would like to think that when they are that size its going to be delivered already made.


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## Gerryf77 (28 Oct 2017)

My Betta is far happier since I moved him into a bigger tank. More active, more to explore


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## Gerryf77 (28 Oct 2017)

So the bigger the tank the happier he will be


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