# Cliff & Plateau



## McCarthy (17 Apr 2017)

Hello guys,

after reading and trying a few forums I quickly came to the conclusion that UKAPS is the right place for me. I really like the straightforward and decent replies so far.

Now, this will be my first journal, and my first tank. I spent quite some time over the last 4 or 5 years reading into reefs, but changed my direction when I saw some of those astonishing Iwagumi setups.

Needless to say, my tank will have a Iwagumi "style" layout. I won't adhere to all the implied rules, but stick to simplicity, perspective, San Sui stones and lot of carpet.

All that being said, I'm still waiting for some parts. At this point there is no final hardscape layout or anything alive.

I hope some of you guys come along for the ride.

Here is my equipment, plant and inhabitant list:


*UPDATE 06/26/17*
It was time to give all those extra tanks their own names and to decide on the final layout, stone, fish, shrimp and plants:







*UPDATED 06/08/17*

*Main Tank:*





*Refugium:*






Took the following photo last week, I already got more items delivered. This is the current layout I have in mind. Cliff to the left and an elevated "Plateau" to the right, bordered by that wall of rocks. Short carpet in the main / left area, a bit longer carpet or hairgrass on the Plateau. I don't want any long plants. Going for a really clean and simplistic look.






This was another layout I came up with. In this case only one elevation level.






Here I tested the tank for leaks and the Eheim filter. At first the pump didn't circulate the water and I had to force water into it, in order to get it started. I love the electronics of the Eheim which allow me to adjust the flow or even simulate waves. I know that the pump is overkill for my 90 x 30 x 30 tank, but if I ever want to upgrade, I won't have to exchange all the equipment.







I'll be working on the plumbing next, including a T-adapter for the Milwaukee PH probe.


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## McCarthy (17 Apr 2017)

The Giesemann LED light and Bluetooth controller arrived today. Border control ripped the package open for inspection and just smashed everything in the large box, what a bunch of assholes.

Man is this light powerful. Glad I'll be able to adjust color channels and output. Haven't figured out yet how to connect my iPhone.


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## imak (18 Apr 2017)

Great equipment you have there. 

How is the light in the corners? Wouldn't it be better if the lights were rised a bit to improve coverage? 

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## McCarthy (18 Apr 2017)

imak said:


> Great equipment you have there.
> 
> How is the light in the corners? Wouldn't it be better if the lights were rised a bit to improve coverage?
> 
> Enviado do meu HUAWEI GRA-L09 através de Tapatalk




Thank you.

Good point. I think Giesemann offers higher stands and also a hanging system. I have to fill the tank with water again and see how that changes the light distribution too.

What would be a good Light Meter by the way?


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## imak (18 Apr 2017)

I believe the member tmiravent is a good person for you to ask, he made some nice measurements of some led lights available, and I believe he used something like an Apogee!!! Not really sure 

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## McCarthy (23 Apr 2017)

I spent even more money in the past couple days. I have 50 pounds of San Sui stone on the way to give me more options for the scaping and also some for the "refugium".

Talking about the fuge, I will put everything in quarantine before moving it to the main tank. That being said, my fuge will be a dedicated display tank. It will also be my backup tank if things don't go right in the main tank.

For the fuge I have ordered a JBJ Saltwater tank with build in filter / heater housing and LED. This will allow me to run this tank with no visible tubes, wires or equipment hanging around. This is a photo with a saltwater setup:






It holds 8 gallons, plenty for my needs. Will sit on the kitchen countertop. When things are settled in the main tank I'll keep mainly shrimp in it and maybe a few fish.

I also ordered the glassware: small ADA Violet in- and outtake, 4 double union ball valves, all tubing for the PH probe and silicon hoses.

Only pieces missing are the cabinet, reactor, plants, shrimp and fish. I have an appointment at a local interior builder on Monday. He will cut sanded plywood and laminate, I'll do the building, screwing and gluing. Remaining parts should be here within 5 - 10 days. Then I'll need a couple days for the scape and order the plants.


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## McCarthy (2 May 2017)

The ADA pipes and more San Sui stones arrived. Now I have plenty of options. How do you guys like this scape?




 


These are the other stones I have. Should I try something The Green Machine style and bank up the tank?


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## GHNelson (2 May 2017)

Hi
Great Journal!
Like the idea of a cliff/plateau effect aquascape,...the 2 stones to the left look fine, not sure about the other 2 to the right!
There too tall large....try for a graduated sized placement.
I would try and work with 3,5,7 amounts of pieces of stone, its more pleasing to the eye than even numbers!
You could raise the larger stone up to the water line and try a semi-emersed moss carpet!
hoggie


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## Cor (2 May 2017)

looks promising


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## McCarthy (2 May 2017)

My refugium just arrived. It has 3 color channels (and 10 brightness settings).

All white LEDs on, will be my standard setting for this fresh water setup:






Half white, half blue setting. Might work too.







All blue LEDs on. Only for coral reefs. Might switch those blue LEDs with reds.







I'll start setting up this tank soon since it will house every fish and shrimp before they go into the main tank. Will be ordering plants soon.


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## McCarthy (2 May 2017)

hogan53 said:


> Hi
> Great Journal!
> Like the idea of a cliff/plateau effect aquascape,...the 2 stones to the left look fine, not sure about the other 2 to the right!
> There too tall large....try for a graduated sized placement.
> ...




You might be right with uneven numbers, I'll keep that in mind. And I think I also agree with those 2 stones to the right. That's just too much and too tall in this setting.

While I generally like the idea to raise the big one to the water line or even above, I do not want any moss in this tank. I want to keep the stone clean for maximum black to green carpet contrast. San Sui stone is also too expensive to be covered up.


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## McCarthy (6 May 2017)

I did test the refugium for 3 days and the pump started acting up. Turned very loud and was vibrating on and off. Looks like the impeller or the housing isn't straight. Cheap crap made in China... what can you expect. Will send it in for a replacement but also ordered a Mini Eheim pump that should fit into the small filter housing.

Talking about that in-the-tank-filter housing, I'll also ordered a stainless steel CO2 diffusor which I will place right inside the housing and under the pump. I'll figure out how much CO2 comes out the nozzle after going through the pump. Really trying to keep everything out of sight.

Getting the aquascaping done in the fuge was much easier. I tried a larger stone but it looks crowded quickly. Also trying to keep it simple for the occasional "fishing".


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## McCarthy (6 May 2017)

PS: I want to take a bunch of high quality tank and fish photos, so I also upped my game in the camera department.

Arrived yesterday: full frame SONY A7R II and 90mm 2.8 Macro lens.


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## McCarthy (7 May 2017)

Ok, here it goes.

That small JBJ Desktop tank - which I was going to use as a refugium / backup tank - is a POS. I have other words too, but that'll get me kicked out in no time.

I was planning on ordering the few remaining parts today, like a small heater that fits into the backwall filter housing and got into some testing again. Here the outcome:

1.) The pump is way too loud and vibrates. I was ok with this issue and have an Eheim coming.
2.) The LED Light doesn't come back on when put on a timer, hence complexly useless.
3.) The LED control buttons are touch-sensors. Very finicky and they skip settings often.
4.) One of the 3 filter cartridges comes loose all the time because the small clips don't hold.
5.) The entire filter box design is ridiculous because the water is not forced through all 3 filter media cartridges, they are aligned in parallel, not in series.
6.) The column for the heater is too skinny, haven't found a matching heater. JBJ doesn't offer any, go figure.
7.) The water can't circulate the heater because the column is closed. The water just moves over the top right into the filter media.

This kit is complete rubbish. I'm a noob and I'm already running into many major design flaws. Who ever designed this kit has no clue what-so-ever.

Looks like I'll go all out with the refugium / backup tank too. No cheap products. Going to order another tank from Ultum Nature Systems, GLA SS CO2 Regulator, external Eheim canister filter, the whole nine yards.

I dislike compromises, but I really hate badly designed products.


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## McCarthy (15 May 2017)

Still waiting for the cabinet for the main tank. The cabinet builder is 1 week behind schedule and he's not responding to my last emails even though an employee said that my cabinet looks almost ready to go. Completely pisses me off when people don't keep deadline and don't even have the courage to let the customer know what's going on.

Regarding my rant with my "refugium" tank from JBJ I have decided to keep it for testing and modding. By the time I have this wrapped up and shipped back I have lost more money and time than this thing is worth.

JBJ offered to send a new version of that LED light which supposedly has a chip that keeps the light in the "on" mode when a timer comes back on.

That being said, the light is till made for reefs and I might have to swap some blue LEDs with red and white ones.

Another issue with that JBJ kit is the filter. I'll have to modify it in order to force the water through the filter. The mentioned design flaw lets the water bypass the filter completely. A simple wall made of a piece of plastic will take car of that. I'll also add some intake slots on the bottom in order to have water enter and circulate the heater.

By the way, I ordered another Ultum Nature Systems tank, the U45. This will take the spot of the fuge tank in my kitchen, and the JBJ will be placed somewhere else.

Yep, that's right: this journal is now about 3 tanks! The main 90cm tank in the living room, a 45cm small version for the kitchen and the JBJ tank as a backup / refugium / testing / modding tank, probably in my office or in the bed room.

The 45cm tank for the kitchen will get the full setup as the main 90cm tank. GLA CO2 regulator, quality LED light (Kessil or AI), San Sui stones, 4+ 350 Eheim filter, ADA glassware, you name it.

Cost is now up to:

90cm tank: $5,100
45cm tank: $1,350
JBJ refugium: $500


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## McCarthy (16 May 2017)

The custom made cabinet arrived, I'm stoked:


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## McCarthy (16 May 2017)

I just realized that the last 7 posts are all from me. Besides some likes for my new camera, there is no feedback since then. This leaves me a bit frustrated, because either people don't care for my build or I'm doing something wrong. Either way I'm questioning the purpose of a journal because of the lack of feedback. I'm not doing this for me - heck I have all this on my computer anyway - but to share my experience and get some input. So, what's up with that? Anybody even reading this?


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## Dominik_K (16 May 2017)

Hi,

just for you not getting frustrated: I follow your thread but I am not as good in those technical things so I wait for you to plant


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## McCarthy (16 May 2017)

Dominik_K said:


> Hi,
> 
> just for you not getting frustrated: I follow your thread but I am not as good in those technical things so I wait for you to plant




HA! At least one person watching. 

Thanks mate!


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## imak (16 May 2017)

I wish I Could say something useful, If I could, I would. 

About the custom cabinet, did you choose the design? Because I like how the doors cover all the front, unlike the Ada style ones. 

And I hope you use that awesome camera for way more than aquariums and fishes  

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## McCarthy (16 May 2017)

Just pushed the cabinet into it's final location in the living room and gave it a try with my new camera.


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## Juraj C. (17 May 2017)

Looks great.
One suggestion for photography - get a polarizing filter to get rid of reflections on the tank.


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## Dominik_K (17 May 2017)

Hi,

I really like the dimensions of the tank. They really jumped into my eye sitting on that nice stand. Could you give me the exact dimensions ?


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## McCarthy (17 May 2017)

Juraj C. said:


> Looks great.
> One suggestion for photography - get a polarizing filter to get rid of reflections on the tank.



Thanks. You are right. For a while I thought I just photoshop the glare out but after watching a tutorial on YouTube, that takes way too long. Do you have any suggestions? The filter diameter is 62mm. Hoya seems to be the go-to filter brand for many, but are they really decent?




Dominik_K said:


> Hi,
> 
> I really like the dimensions of the tank. They really jumped into my eye sitting on that nice stand. Could you give me the exact dimensions ?




The tank is 90cm x 30cm x 30cm. I thought about getting a custom made tank but didn't want to wait so long. After all I could have ordered one because everything else took for ever to get in. In a perfect world I'll have a 180cm long x 30cm high x 70 cm deep tank. Shallow, a lot of length to cover for the fish and a lot of depth for 3 if not 4 plains.


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## Juraj C. (17 May 2017)

McCarthy said:


> Thanks. You are right. For a while I thought I just photoshop the glare out but after watching a tutorial on YouTube, that takes way too long. Do you have any suggestions? The filter diameter is 62mm. Hoya seems to be the go-to filter brand for many, but are they really decent?



I think you can't go wrong with Hoya. I have one myself and had no issues. I also had smaller diameter Hama polarizing filter and it was ok as well.


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## CooKieS (17 May 2017)

Awesome setup, lovely dimensions!


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## doylecolmdoyle (18 May 2017)

Equipment looks great, the rocks to me tho are just a bit, well boring, I would take to them with a hammer / chisel or grinder and create some detail and add some smaller stones


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## McCarthy (18 May 2017)

doylecolmdoyle said:


> Equipment looks great, the rocks to me tho are just a bit, well boring, I would take to them with a hammer / chisel or grinder and create some detail and add some smaller stones




I'm not set regarding the scape yet. My original idea is a few large stones with small fish that reassembles large cliffs, the one you would see on Hawaii or in the Red Sea.

I do have a bunch of small stones too, which I'll be partly using in the second / refugee tank:








This is what inspired me. Yep that's the set from the old oo7 movie 'The Man with the Golden Gun' in Phang Nga Bay.


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## Juraj C. (18 May 2017)

Have a look at Escarpment aquascape by The Green Machine. I like the later version of it without the wood even more.
Looking forward to seeing what you'll create.


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## Vivian Andrew (18 May 2017)

Nice equipment you got there, love your tank dimension


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## McCarthy (18 May 2017)

Juraj C. said:


> Have a look at Escarpment aquascape by The Green Machine. I like the later version of it without the wood even more.
> Looking forward to seeing what you'll create.




I have seen that page a while ago when I was reading up everything I could find from TGM but I haven't noticed the modification. I agree, the final version looks much better with the open area to the right. It offers both depth and space.

Since my tank is on the longer side of things, I might change my scape plans to something like this:





I have over 50 liters of Power Sand and ADA powder here, and plenty of stones. I could easily stock my tank with that much scape.

But I'm not a fan of moss. As far as I know, once you have this introduced to your tank, you won't get it out again unless you start over. And my SAN SUI stone was to expensive to be covered in green IMO.





Vivian Andrew said:


> Nice equipment you got there, love your tank dimension




Thank you Vivian!



.


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## McCarthy (19 May 2017)

Well the replacement for that sad JBJ tank arrived. So much better quality.












JBJ on the right, the Ultum Nature System tank to the left, doh.







...and my Reverse Osmosis System from BulkReefSupply arrived. Man I love those guys at BRS! Perfect everything, from service, quality items, shop, packing and shipping.


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## McCarthy (19 May 2017)

Just placed more orders including the ADA Stainless Steel skimmer. Thought about the cheaper Eheim 350 skimmer but that thing is too much of an eye sore.






And while I'm at it, I updated the parts list. With the backup / refugium tank I'll be past $6k. That's getting close to the original reef tank I had planned.


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## Dominik_K (19 May 2017)

Hi,

holy, you're planning to spend a lot of money for that tank. I am Building a 128 l one for about 650 €  But buying budget were I can. Are rummynoses really that expensive for you? In Germany, they are sold for about 4 - 7 €, depending on the supplier. But over all it's fine, if I would have the money, I guess spending 5,3 k on the tank would be a pleasure for me 

Generally speaking, I would tend to use mosses. They give a great feel in layouts as you plan it. And you can get rid of them. Just tie them to the woods instead of glueing and your fine. Once you want to get rid of them, remove the stone, give it an intense scrub and it's done.
The only really important thing is the trimming. Make 100 % sure, that there are not leftover snippings, as they will float around the tank and settle where you don't want them to be.


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## McCarthy (19 May 2017)

Dominik_K said:


> Hi,
> 
> holy, you're planning to spend a lot of money for that tank. I am Building a 128 l one for about 650 €  But buying budget were I can. Are rummynoses really that expensive for you? In Germany, they are sold for about 4 - 7 €, depending on the supplier. But over all it's fine, if I would have the money, I guess spending 5,3 k on the tank would be a pleasure for me
> 
> ...




I just bookmarked your build. I'm sure I'll build a "budget" tank at some point too. I like extremes, either high quality and the best I can do, or value based with lots of DYIs.

The fish is not "Rummy Nose Tetras". Talking about Germany, are you German? Sag das doch gleich!  What I want is called "Rummynose Rasbora". They are rather hard to find. This is how they look like:







Moss trimmings are exactly what I'm scared off. I read several times that people didn't get the moss out ever again. I have to think about that.


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## doylecolmdoyle (19 May 2017)

Thats some crazy money on a fish tank, I tend to try do everything on the cheap, I have 5 fish tanks running atm and I would say Ive spent maybe 1k on them all.

That skimmer does look good but is a pain to adjust daily as your water level drops, you should look into a auto top of system, something else to spend money on


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## Dominik_K (19 May 2017)

McCarthy said:


> I just bookmarked your build. I'm sure I'll build a "budget" tank at some point too. I like extremes, either high quality and the best I can do, or value based with lots of DYIs.
> 
> The fish is not "Rummy Nose Tetras". Talking about Germany, are you German? Sag das doch gleich!  What I want is called "Rummynose Rasbora". They are rather hard to find. This is how they look like:
> 
> Moss trimmings are exactly what I'm scared off. I read several times that people didn't get the moss out ever again. I have to think about that.



Thanks for bookmarking! currently waiting on my supplyers. Yeah as a student, I love the low price extreme  Okay, you got me there, just totally mixed the two fish up.

And yeah, I am living about 40 km away of Stuttgart  That's why I wondered about the prices (for the wrong fish), since I have to pay extremly much money for fish to get healthy ones and even here, the tetras are about 4 €. But the Rasboras, never seen them live.
Can they be breeded? If yes, you may find a local aquarium club, giving them for about half the price. Three years ago I had luck on that way with some Pseudomugil Ivantsoffi. I got 12 for 25 and usually they are sold for 6 - 8 € each, if your lucky enough to get them.

I read those things too, but never had problems with moss myself, don't know why, guess I am just lucky


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## McCarthy (19 May 2017)

doylecolmdoyle said:


> Thats some crazy money on a fish tank, I tend to try do everything on the cheap, I have 5 fish tanks running atm and I would say Ive spent maybe 1k on them all.
> 
> That skimmer does look good but is a pain to adjust daily as your water level drops, you should look into a auto top of system, something else to spend money on



I just had a look at your builds, really nice work. Even though I think you spent a bit more than $1000, stones, plants and all included.

Now, I had a auto top-off system on my reef tank list, which would have been a much larger tank. But I might run out of room in that small 90cm cabinet for this setup. Maybe I can find a very skinny and tall canister that still fits. But then again, I'll enjoy having to take care of the 2 tanks on a daily basis. I'm usually only gone for 2 x 1 week each year. In that time I can remove the skimmer.





Dominik_K said:


> Thanks for bookmarking! currently waiting on my supplyers. Yeah as a student, I love the low price extreme  Okay, you got me there, just totally mixed the two fish up.
> 
> And yeah, I am living about 40 km away of Stuttgart  That's why I wondered about the prices (for the wrong fish), since I have to pay extremly much money for fish to get healthy ones and even here, the tetras are about 4 €. But the Rasboras, never seen them live.
> Can they be breeded? If yes, you may find a local aquarium club, giving them for about half the price. Three years ago I had luck on that way with some Pseudomugil Ivantsoffi. I got 12 for 25 and usually they are sold for 6 - 8 € each, if your lucky enough to get them.
> ...




I have only found one place in the entire US that has this fish currently available. There is no way to find them cheaper, and that's ok. This fish is in danger of becoming extinct. You can breed them, but you have to find and rescue the eggs every day, because they tend to eat their babies. Maybe I'll try my luck in the backup tank and share them. I would hate seeing them go extinct.


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## McCarthy (19 May 2017)

Placed another order with GLA. This will be my CO2 setup for the backup / refugium tank. I LOVE the GLS regulators. The 5 lb tank is already here. All this will find place in a kitchen cabinet and I'll drill a small hole for the CO2 line through the countertop.


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## McCarthy (19 May 2017)

The pressurized tank for the Reverse Osmosis system just arrived. It holds 20 gallons, which will allow me to do 50% water changes in both my tanks at any given time without waiting or prep time. I'll hook it up in the laundry room out of sight and run a hose when I need it.


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## doylecolmdoyle (20 May 2017)

McCarthy said:


> I just had a look at your builds, really nice work. Even though I think you spent a bit more than $1000, stones, plants and all included.



Thanks, yes probably when you add it all up, all the various lily pipes I have broke and replaced, plants, ferts and bits and bobs it would be well over $1000, I just spend $45 on a 9kg Seiryu stone


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## CooKieS (20 May 2017)

That´s a lot of money for empty tanks...you should start scaping!


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## McCarthy (20 May 2017)

doylecolmdoyle said:


> Thanks, yes probably when you add it all up, all the various lily pipes I have broke and replaced, plants, ferts and bits and bobs it would be well over $1000, I just spend $45 on a 9kg Seiryu stone



PM me when you find a 9kg SAN SUI for $45 




CooKieS said:


> That´s a lot of money for empty tanks...you should start scaping!




I wish!

Here is a ToDo list of work to be done before I can order plants:

1.) Install Reverse Osmosis system
2.) Fit cable and hose grommets in cabinet for main tank
3.) Fit cable and hose grommets in kitchen countertop for backup / refugium tank
4.) Wiring and tubing for main tank
5.) Wiring and tubing for backup / refugium tank
6.) Read up on ferts and order
7.) Read up on my plants and fish list, make sure water parameters etc match

Still waiting on parts. That second GLA CO2 regulator is hand build and might need 2 weeks alone. I think I'll be able to start scaping and planting in about 2 to 3 weeks.

Still have to make up my mind if I want to frost the backwall on the main tank or even both tanks. On one side I want to use a LED backwall light, but on the other side I like to keep it open and see-through.


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## McCarthy (21 May 2017)

Working on that stand for the reverse osmosis system... might go to Wal Mart for some water resistant paint... AT MIDNIGHT.


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## CooKieS (21 May 2017)

MHhh lovely car...


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## McCarthy (21 May 2017)

CooKieS said:


> MHhh lovely car...




Thanks. That car is new and the engine is burning massive amounts of oil. Will sell it back to the dealership and buy a new one.


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## McCarthy (22 May 2017)

I finished the stand for the reverse osmosis system tonight, hooked it up in the laundry room and tested it.

This is a 6 stage unit that also pulls chlorine out of the tap water. I don't want to use any chemicals to neutralize hazardous elements.

Front side with 3-way TDS meter and pressure gauge build in:







Backside:







20 gallon tank in place:







I was able to fit everything inside a shelving unit in my laundry room, hooked up to the washing machine freshwater and wastewater:







I was about to go to bed but decided to place an order for some more parts and a hose that I could run from the reverse osmosis tank to the main fish tank in the living room. And then it happened: why would I run a stupid hose, when the laundry and the living room not only are separated by just one wall but they are right on the same wall?

There is a power outlet right behind the fish tank and I'll just run a permanent hose through the wall right into the laundry room. HELLO AUTO TOP-OFF SYSTEM.

A hose can also go both ways through the wall, meaning running a waste water hose too. HELLO AUTO WATER CHANGES.


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## alto (23 May 2017)

Gorgeous tank & equipment 



Sawbwa resplendens can be a stunning fish but not that simple to get the best display/behaviour from this species - local shop used to bring them in regularly but only ever received males (& the odd female in an order of 200 - 300 fish)
Ska Shrimp seems to still import them regularly (Wet Spot lists some as TR but not sure on their source as transshippers list as wild caught & seasonal .....) & has the best pricing I've seen 

Why not dump the JBJ & go with a kit from Innovative Marine 
- fusion nano 10 sells for under $100, I've seen some lagoon 20 at clear out prices ... though I'd go with the peninsula 14 re space considerations & decent dimensions for fish quarantine/hospital 

It's tempting to run the Q/H tank with plants etc but not as convenient for treating fish or moving fish 
- I finally gave in & keep a bare tank on hand as well now (funny how tanks just keep on proliferating)

Re RO water storage, sanitation becomes a consideration - though if used for daily water change/top up may be fine
What does your system provide in terms of antibacterial activity?


Difficult to get moss off of San Sui stone - even after scrubbing & bleaching, I've seen bits reappear & begin to grow


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## McCarthy (24 May 2017)

alto said:


> Gorgeous tank & equipment
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thank you.

That's some really good info for me. If I can't order 3 or 4 females for each male, I might have a problem in my rather small tank. What will happen if I have lets say 10 males and no females in my 20 gallon tank? Will they fight or is there a chance to sort it out?

I already bought another Ultum Nature Systems tank to replace the JBJ. I thought about the peninsula 14, but that was getting to large for my kitchen counter and I didn't want another custom made cabinet.

Afaik RO systems remove basically all bacteria. I have the 6 stage system from BulkReefSupply: http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/6-stage-150gpd-plus-water-saver-ro-di-system-bulk-reef-supply.html

Any suggestions?

That confirms it for me: no moss.


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## Reayman (24 May 2017)

@McCarthy I have absolutely nothing to add here, but just wanted to say I am following your journal (from the shadows) to see what amazing set up you can create when finances don't impede progress.

(Meanwhile I'm battling T5 HiLite's on a low tech set up because I refuse to pay for CO2)

Anyway, you have the patience of a saint doing so much planning without even ordering a single plant yet 

I hope it all turns out great, no pressure by the way but you've built this thing up!

If you get stuck on any technical lighting/plant related issues, you're at the right place, any number of pros here to help you out (just not me)

R


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## McCarthy (25 May 2017)

Reayman said:


> @McCarthy I have absolutely nothing to add here, but just wanted to say I am following your journal (from the shadows) to see what amazing set up you can create when finances don't impede progress.
> 
> (Meanwhile I'm battling T5 HiLite's on a low tech set up because I refuse to pay for CO2)
> 
> ...




Thanks Reayman for following. I just added even more tech to the list.


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## McCarthy (25 May 2017)

The reverse osmosis unit was leaking at 5 different locations. Contacted the manufacturer, no response, ordered parts and fixed it myself.

Tested over night, no more leaks.

It's also hooked up to the 20 gal pressure tank. Everything working, TMS monitor shows 120 incoming (tap water), 2 between stage 3 and 4, and zero past stage 6.






More parts arrived, with the ADA skimmer being the highlight:







Then I decided that I want a tank controller. Was looking into the Reef systems from Neptune (Apex), Digital Aquatics (ReefKeeper), started another thread on this forum and was directed to the industrial grade LOGO!8 controller from Siemens by Ian. https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/reef-tank-controller-for-freshwater.49868/

Now I'm looking at using this:






...and a bunch of relays, sockets, adapters and an enclosure to make it look like this:







...and all this to control these functions (and more):

1.) Temperature probe: cuts off the heater and light if heater fails in the on position, turns on chiller above set temperature.

2.) Auto top-off system with 2 sensors, directly from the reverse osmosis system.

3.) Programmable fish feeder, which turns of the canister filter when feeding,

4.) Programmable module that turns CO2 on or off based on PH probe, and based on timer (off at night).

5.) Alarm send via text / email / app to cell phone.

6.) Remote monitoring and access.


But don't worry, I'll get the tank cycled and running first.


----------



## Tim Harrison (25 May 2017)

Seems like a no expense spared build...looking forward to seeing this up and running


----------



## Zeus. (25 May 2017)

McCarthy said:


> I'll get the tank cycled and running first.



Good idea - I did a long DSM then flooded and still had stuff to sort for PLC, its not a project you can rush.


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## McCarthy (25 May 2017)

Tim Harrison said:


> Seems like a no expense spared build...looking forward to seeing this up and running



I wasn't expecting that either. My first plan was just one tank, some Amazon LED light, $100 CO2 regulator, classic Eheim filter and that's it. Liked the SAN SUI stone and all of the sudden I needed ADA glassware to match. The rest is history. 

Will be interesting to see if I can put all that tech to good use, being a noob and all. 






Zeus. said:


> Good idea - I did a long DSM then flooded and still had stuff to sort for PLC, its not a project you can rush.



I was getting impatient the last couple weeks because some vendors ship rather slowly but realized that rushing anything (unless its an emergency) won't do any good in this hobby. So I decided to pick up an additional hobby that should keep me entertained meanwhile.

These guys are just an hour away and I'll sign up for traning soon:


----------



## Zeus. (25 May 2017)

McCarthy said:


> classic Eheim filter



Stopping filters on a regular basis can cause issues with them restarting, Ian_m use to stop his for short periods in the evening until it started to have issues restarting, so worth thinking about. I have a Fluval FX6 which auto stops every 12hrs to clear air out off filter so has been designed for regular stops starts so I have a little more confidence in stopping mine. Have it timed to stop about 30mins before CO2 injection on daily basis, no issues so far


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## Nigel95 (25 May 2017)

Juicy equipment man start scaping!!


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## McCarthy (25 May 2017)

Zeus. said:


> Stopping filters on a regular basis can cause issues with them restarting, Ian_m use to stop his for short periods in the evening until it started to have issues restarting, so worth thinking about. I have a Fluval FX6 which auto stops every 12hrs to clear air out off filter so has been designed for regular stops starts so I have a little more confidence in stopping mine. Have it timed to stop about 30mins before CO2 injection on daily basis, no issues so far



I bought the Eheim Professionel 4e+ 350. This filter has a auto prime function and electronic flow / wave generator. They are completely different than the Classic series. Do you think that my filter will have the same issue?



Nigel95 said:


> Juicy equipment man start scaping!!



Before I can start scaping I have to make sure that I don't have to move the cabinet anymore, hence drill the holes for the cable and hose grommets. And the location of those holes depends on the location of all the equipment inside the cabinet. If the holes are in the wrong spots, I'll have much more hoses and tubes running inside, and I'll run out of room quickly in my rather small cabinet. Now that I'm even going to add a tank controller this planning is even more important. Keep in mind that I will also run an auto top-off and water change system with hoses running through the wall behind the cabinet.

The longer I think about this planning phase it becomes clear that I can't rush the layout of the cabinet at all.


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## Zeus. (25 May 2017)

With doing a DSM I was able to move mine for extra holes which I hadn't planned for. So good idea to delay IMO.

Sent from Mountolympus via neural interface


----------



## rebel (26 May 2017)

I came here to look for a no-expense spared build......and found one!

Nice going dude. Looking forward to your updates.


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## Zeus. (26 May 2017)

Had a thought if your doing auto topup Via RO unit with the PLC why not take it one step further and Auto WC, Only a case of a another sensor and solenoid valve. seeing your running water in run a small pipe anyway, Take a small pipe drain out.If you add the waste water post filter their will be no solids that the pipe couldn't handle.
Just a thought


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## McCarthy (26 May 2017)

Zeus. said:


> Had a thought if your doing auto topup Via RO unit with the PLC why not take it one step further and Auto WC, Only a case of a another sensor and solenoid valve. seeing your running water in run a small pipe anyway, Take a small pipe drain out.If you add the waste water post filter their will be no solids that the pipe couldn't handle.
> Just a thought




That's what I was looking into last night lol

https://www.saltwateraquarium.com/a...BPksMl_Ggcs0qDO_L3ewHQZeyHVRrdESO5hoCpCrw_wcB

Going the optical route instead of 2 or even 3 floating switches which are to big for my tank. On the other side I'm thinking about ditching the Eheim filter for a sump and placing the sensors there.

Auto WCs will be good for every week but I'll still have to trim the carpet at least once a month and use my Python Gravel Washer and Siphon.


----------



## zozo (26 May 2017)

McCarthy said:


>




I flew this for a while..  Corsair Motor.. It was the best time of my life... One thing the instructor says, "Beeing completely in control of the supernatural." Isn't true, i hope it doesn't backlash on him and bites him in the bottoms.. Because you can never be completely in controll.

Also seen them making some potentialy fatal mistakes. And i can tell an happy that i live to tell..

You see them flying awfully close to trees.. And the air around an obstacle can be unpreditable turbulent.. Depending in the wind speed a turbulant bubble of 3 to 5 times bigger than the obsacle.. It can collapse your wing, and a collapsed wing is going into a parachute dive of about 9 metres per second. So flying near obstacles so close to the ground and you get a collapse, it takes a blink of an eye, you feel the collapse, you look up, but it is already to late, you hit the ground before you realise what's happened.

It broke my back and needed buy new tires for a year instead of new shoes..  Unfortunately the damage left me unable to fly ever again.

Just realise everytime you do it, you are for the most part lucky to get down again without scratches.. It's what nobody likes to think about and thats for most pilots their demise.. Thinking your completely in control.. Till the day mother nature tells you otherwise. Usealy this is a very very hard lesson..

But i'm hardheaded as well, if i could i would fly again no doubt about it..


----------



## McCarthy (26 May 2017)

zozo said:


> I flew this for a while..  Corsair Motor.. It was the best time of my life... One thing the instructor says, "Beeing completely in control of the supernatural." Isn't true, i hope it doesn't backlash on him and bites him in the bottoms.. Because you can never be completely in controll.
> 
> Also seen them making some potentialy fatal mistakes. And i can tell an happy that i live to tell..
> 
> ...




Oh man! Some good info, and I'm sorry that you went down and broke your back, but happy that you are still around to tell the story. Did this leave you with wheels or are you limited in motion / prone to new injury?

I'm trying to get away from something that left many friends dead, both on the streets and the tracks. My race bike is for sale, and paramotoring popped up.

For many years I was basically living on the race tracks... superbike unlimited... went down several times... have some nice Ti bling... it happens when you push your bike and your skills to the limit...


----------



## McCarthy (26 May 2017)

I ditched that JBJ nonsense tank, put up the Ultum Nature Systems U45 and the second set of Lilly pipes. Will order another Eheim filter for this refugium tank, hopefully one with build in heater. Talking with Eheim Germany, because they don't offer the newest filter in the US. Might have to change out the AC module.

No more black in-tank filter housing! 

Should I put a frosted film on the back in order to blend out those ugly outlets?








And while I'm at it, another shot of the main tank.


----------



## zozo (26 May 2017)

McCarthy said:


> Did this leave you with wheels or are you limited in motion / prone to new injury?



I got ghosted by a sudden gush of wind from the left rolling over a couple of trees about 30 metres left of me.. I was about to land with the wind head on.. Hard to say maybe maximum 10 metres above the ground. I have no idea where it came from and how and why that gush suddenly came from the side, probably a bursting thermal bubble popping off somewhere near, these you can't see. But the wind rolled over the trees on top of the glider collapsing it. I remember that wrinkle sound, looking up seeing the colllapse, pulled the right line to keep it straight and feeling the crash. It went to fast to react, it broke my wrist and shatered 2 vertebras.. Was bound to a wheelchair for over a year partialy paralized in the lower extremeties.. Very slowly with lots a work tears and sweat it took about 4 to 5 years for 60% to come back very slowly.. So i can walk again with only one ancle foot orthesis. But lak the power to jump of the sidewalk and not able to run anymore. Else i would be flying again. I think.. But that's just saying, maybe less easy than it seems once you know what it means to loose something most of us take for granted.. And the work and heartship it costs to get it back if it ever comes back. Maybe i would think twice before i launch again.. Dunno.. It's twisted feelings.

But all is about 13 years ago now..  Sh#t happens, daunted mother nature on the wrong day, wrong time, wrong place and she picked me to put me back at my place. Where we belong, on the ground actualy..

Hard to explain, what she took from me phisicaly, i got back twice spiritualy.. But that's something induvidual i can not share. 

Just be carefull man... Good luck..


----------



## Zeus. (26 May 2017)

McCarthy said:


> That's what I was looking into last night lol



Only issue with an open tank is with the time it takes some plants might dry out.! Find doing the WC on mine is better with glass lids on and no spraying water is required. Larger bore pipes would be better if planning doing WC with PLC.


----------



## McCarthy (26 May 2017)

zozo said:


> I got ghosted by a sudden gush of wind from the left rolling over a couple of trees about 30 metres left of me.. I was about to land with the wind head on.. Hard to say maybe maximum 10 metres above the ground. I have no idea where it came from and how and why that gush suddenly came from the side, probably a bursting thermal bubble popping off somewhere near, these you can't see. But the wind rolled over the trees on top of the glider collapsing it. I remember that wrinkle sound, looking up seeing the colllapse, pulled the right line to keep it straight and feeling the crash. It went to fast to react, it broke my wrist and shatered 2 vertebras.. Was bound to a wheelchair for over a year partialy paralized in the lower extremeties.. Very slowly with lots a work tears and sweat it took about 4 to 5 years for 60% to come back very slowly.. So i can walk again with only one ancle foot orthesis. But lak the power to jump of the sidewalk and not able to run anymore. Else i would be flying again. I think.. But that's just saying, maybe less easy than it seems once you know what it means to loose something most of us take for granted.. And the work and heartship it costs to get it back if it ever comes back. Maybe i would think twice before i launch again.. Dunno.. It's twisted feelings.
> 
> But all is about 13 years ago now..  Sh#t happens, daunted mother nature on the wrong day, wrong time, wrong place and she picked me to put me back at my place. Where we belong, on the ground actualy..
> 
> ...




I get what you are saying, in every way, including the spirituality.

While I haven't had a crash in your category, the last time I (also) broke my wrist. It was that damn scaphoid bone which tends to heal very slowly or not at all. I walked around with that broken wrist for 1 month because they didn't see the crack the first time around. Then they put me in a cast for several month, with no success, followed by surgery, another cast, walking around with a bone growing machine attached and all. I couldn't use my hand for 1 full year, which is nothing compared to your process, but it taught me the same.

We are pretty fragile when we get into extreme sports. It takes a second, sometimes only a split-second and our life will be altered for ever, or taken away.

Obviously my hand and wrist is still not 100%, and never will be. Loss of range of motion, nerve damaged, at some point I'll deal with premature arthritis.

Throw in hearing loss and tinnitus from racing (that wind noise kills it) and some other crap I did to my body...

I used to live in Miami Beach, did that party thing for 7 years straight and moved away to give me a chance to live a healthy life. Well that's what I did for over 3 years and now I'm at "What's the point of just breathing, eating and sleeping?"


----------



## McCarthy (26 May 2017)

Zeus. said:


> Only issue with an open tank is with the time it takes some plants might dry out.! Find doing the WC on mine is better with glass lids on and no spraying water is required. Larger bore pipes would be better if planning doing WC with PLC.



I'll only have a carpet in the main tank, no long plants at all. The focus will be on the SAN SUI stones. The carpet will be bright green and rather short, reassembling the greenish ocean from the Phang Nga Bay. I posted a photo in post #28:

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/cliff-plateau.49531/page-2#post-489078


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## McCarthy (26 May 2017)

The second CO2 regulator from GLA arrived an hour ago. Just some more equipment porn...


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## CooKieS (26 May 2017)

McCarthy said:


> I'll only have a carpet in the main tank, no long plants at all. The focus will be on the SAN SUI stones. The carpet will be bright green and rather short, reassembling the greenish ocean from the Phang Nga Bay. I posted a photo in post #28:
> 
> https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/cliff-plateau.49531/page-2#post-489078



I love this place and this Bond movie (r.i.p Roger Moore btw).

For the carpeting plant; maybe some hc cuba mixed with marsilea crenata and eleocharis sp mini near the rocks to achieve a natural effect?

Some mini pellia glued to the san sui stones would look awesome and very close to the picture too.


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## McCarthy (26 May 2017)

imak said:


> I wish I Could say something useful, If I could, I would.
> 
> About the custom cabinet, did you choose the design? Because I like how the doors cover all the front, unlike the Ada style ones.
> 
> ...





Looks like I never responded to your post. I'm sorry about that. Here it goes...

I'll be using that camera for some street and landscape photography soon. This is from a NYC trip, with the same 90mm lens:



 

I designed the cabinet and even calculated the exact dimensions of all panels. I thought about buying a quality table saw and doing it myself, but a proper saw starts at $3000. So I opted for a local cabinet builder and he did a good job all-around. That being said I should have bought that saw. Together with the router I already own I could have matched all my future furniture needs. Next time...

Here the drawing and the measurements:


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## McCarthy (26 May 2017)

CooKieS said:


> I love this place and this Bond movie (r.i.p Roger Moore btw).
> 
> For the carpeting plant; maybe some hc cuba mixed with marsilea crenata and eleocharis sp mini near the rocks to achieve a natural effect?
> 
> Some mini pellia glued to the san sui stones would look awesome and very close to the picture too.




That actually sounds pretty good even though I'm not sure about gluing anything to the stone. Is that mini pellia anything like moss? Will it wander and spread out?

Yeah, R.I.P Roger Moore. So sad... I watched his Bond movies literally several hundred times, especially when I was a teen.


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## alto (26 May 2017)

McCarthy said:


> That actually sounds pretty good even though I'm not sure about gluing anything to the stone. Is that mini pellia anything like moss? Will it wander and spread out?



What's your guess 
Much slower growth though & easier to remove from the odd place (occasionally it's more invasive but few tanks provide environments so much to its liking - just include this in your weekly maintenance) 

(Sorry haven't looked at your RO system yet re bacteriostat considerations - as long as system is in motion it's not an issue)

Had an opportunity & picked up ~25  Sawbwa resplendens - -all males I suspect, they are shy in quarantine & thin (as expected)

If you look at Amano Iwagumi (especially early stuff before it really became an international business) you'll see more textured planting (takes more growing/trimming technique) rather than monoculture, also he often has some untamed/wild element to the growth

Your 3 main rocks are too much the same height - obviously can alter this when substrate goes in - have you tried the rightmost stone on end so that it's a much taller triangle shape?
Also select smaller supporting stones that will add uneven texture to the carpet (expect carpet to grow over these stones) - tank is only 30cm front to back so you want to add the illusion of greater depth

I suggest you get the small tank up & running & play with plants (& algae  ) while continuing with the main tank's Grand Scheme 

Can't beat GLA for substance & design


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## CooKieS (26 May 2017)

McCarthy said:


> That actually sounds pretty good even though I'm not sure about gluing anything to the stone. Is that mini pellia anything like moss? Will it wander and spread out?
> 
> Yeah, R.I.P Roger Moore. So sad... I watched his Bond movies literally several hundred times, especially when I was a teen.



Yeah, what an awesome actor, I heard he was a nice Guy too...

Mini pellia will grow slowly and compact with CO2 and good lightning. I got mine since 8 months in my tank, I've trimmed it maybe 3 Times...very easy, you can even just detach small patches with your hands and sold them. Not as invasive as other mosses...

Here it is, from day 0 to day 210;


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## McCarthy (27 May 2017)

alto said:


> What's your guess
> Much slower growth though & easier to remove from the odd place (occasionally it's more invasive but few tanks provide environments so much to its liking - just include this in your weekly maintenance)
> 
> (Sorry haven't looked at your RO system yet re bacteriostat considerations - as long as system is in motion it's not an issue)
> ...




That's why I wrote Iwagumi "Style" setup. I won't follow all those rules. Simplicity and minimalism is huge for me. I strongly believe in the saying "less is more" and most tanks are overcrowded in my eyes, even traditional Iwagumis.

I tried the left stone upright but I can't have anything stick out because of  the low sitting Giesemann light.

I'll get the small tank up first, it's the refugium after all, and everything living will go through that tank first. I would have ordered plants for the refugium by now but since I decided to ditch that JBJ tank with that weirdo filter, I still have to buy an alternative filter first. Still waiting on Eheim and the info on the 4e+ 250 with heater element. They are available in Europe but haven't seen any in the US. Eheim USA isn't helpful so I have to wait for an email from Eheim Germany.

Hows your bunch of sawbwa resplendens doing? Would you mind sharing some photos? Are they behaving or going nuts with no females around?


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## McCarthy (27 May 2017)

CooKieS said:


> Yeah, what an awesome actor, I heard he was a nice Guy too...
> 
> Mini pellia will grow slowly and compact with CO2 and good lightning. I got mine since 8 months in my tank, I've trimmed it maybe 3 Times...very easy, you can even just detach small patches with your hands and sold them. Not as invasive as other mosses...
> 
> Here it is, from day 0 to day 210;





While that Mini pellia looks great in your setup, that's waaaaay too much for my planned scape and confirms (for me) that I don't want anything growing on the stones.

I love how your fish can go hide in those plants and wood, but I have something in mind that is very simple and more "into" art. Pretty sure I'll have a heavily planted tank at some point but my first tanks are going to be a flat and even carpet (either Elatine Hydropiper or Hemianthus Callitrichoides Cuba), tall and black SAN SUI stones, one 1 fish species (Rummynose Rasbora) and a few Royal Blue Orange Eye Tiger shrimp. MAYBE I'll consider some dwarf hair grass (Eleocharis Parvula) in some spots as a second plant. Maybe.


By the way, that shrimp will be a great match for the Rummynose Rasbora:


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## Daveslaney (27 May 2017)

With the style tank you have. Your planned planting and fauna will look fantastic.


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## McCarthy (29 May 2017)

I'm currently working on the tubing for both tanks. I'm working with 4 different tube and hose diameters, hence I need a bunch of reducers, valves, couplers. Some of them I have to order overseas.

On order right now:

2 x CO2 Check Valve GLA Industrial Check Valve
1 x Scissor GLA Pro-Scissor Wave 200mm (Tungsten Carbide)
4 x Reducer Eheim REDUCER 16MM - 12MM 4004980
1 x Glassware Brush Fairhouse Pipe and hose brush
1 x Ferts GLA PPS-Pro Fertilizer Package with 2 x 500mL Dispensers
2 x GH Booster GLA The Ultimate GH Booster - 1lb
1 CO2 Inline Diffuser GLA Atomic CO2 Diffuser Inline 16/22mm
1 CO2 Drop Checker  GLA CAL AQUA CLIP Drop Checker


Still have to figure out and order:

1 x Canister Filter Eheim Professionel 4e 350T
1 x Power Converter Amazon 700 Watt
1 x LED Lighting EcoTech XR15FW PRO G4
2 x Frosted background 3M Frosted Crystal
10 Barbs  SCH80 3/4" NPT - 1/2" Barb
2 x Hoses and Tubing BRS Silicon Tube
1 x Power Strip Surge Protector
1 x Custom acrylic box for filter Shoppop Displays Custom
1 x LED strip for background FLUVAL Eco-Bright Led Lamp 18in-24in
1 x Fish food
1 x Plants Elatine hydropiper, Hemianthus Callitrichoides Cuba, dwarf hair grass Eleocharis parvula
24 x Fish Rummynose Rasbora
5 x Shrimp Royal Blue Orange Eye Tiger shrimp
1 x Siemens controller + needed parts + modules


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## Smells Fishy (29 May 2017)

Have you got any spare money to pimp my tank out? Lol


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## McCarthy (29 May 2017)

Smells Fishy said:


> Have you got any spare money to pimp my tank out? Lol




Well, I can teach you how to catch some fish, but I ain't gonna buy it for you.


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## Zeus. (29 May 2017)

Fisherman too 

Sent from Mountolympus via neural interface


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## McCarthy (31 May 2017)

More products arrived and a huge shout-out for GLA for carrying high quality items.








A bunch of minerals to bring back the good levels in RO water, tank cleaner, wave scissors, inline CO2 diffusor for the refugium tank, 2 x CO2 industrial grade check valves and a CO2 checker that actually holds the chemicals on the outside of the tank.







And for size reference both GLA CO2 regulators in the same photo.


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## McCarthy (3 Jun 2017)

I started working on the refugium tank in the kitchen.

Had to pull a power cord through all bottom cabinets because I didn't want to have an exposed wire coming from one of those outlets in the tiles. That was $60 in parts and 2 hours of work alone.







The Eheim filter, CO2, heater and everything else will be in the kitchen cabinet right below the tank. I ordered 2 sizes of plastic grommets for the hoses going from and to the filter in the cabinet. I decided for 2 small grommets instead of 1 large.

In case anybody wants some, I found them here: mockett.com







Drilling, sawing and routing the holes was a huge mess. I hate particle board! Will have to clean the entire house because there was no way holding a vacuum in one hand while still maintaining a clear cut with a tool in the other hand.

Here the outcome:

















I'll get the LED light and hose adapters for this tank in a few days. Then I should be able to finish the entire setup for the refugium, and place orders for plants.


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## Zeus. (3 Jun 2017)

Very neat and tidy with no tight bends in pipes very professional

Sent from Mountolympus via neural interface


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## doylecolmdoyle (4 Jun 2017)

Looks nice, I guess your putting a background on the tank, those switches behind the tank would annoy me to much!


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## McCarthy (4 Jun 2017)

Zeus. said:


> Very neat and tidy with no tight bends in pipes very professional
> 
> Sent from Mountolympus via neural interface



Thank you Zeus!




doylecolmdoyle said:


> Looks nice, I guess your putting a background on the tank, those switches behind the tank would annoy me to much!



Thanks. I ordered a bunch of frosted film samples at decorativefilm.com:

Sample of: SXWF-WM White Matte
Sample of: SX-1301 Clear Frost
Sample of: SH2MACR-I Mat Crystal i
Sample of: SH2FNCR Fine Crystal
Sample of: SH2FGCE Cielo
Sample of: 3M 7725-314 Dusted Crystal
Sample of: SH2FGMR Mare
Sample of: SXB-52 Azure Blue Sand Blast
Sample of: SXB-56 Ice Blue Sand Blast

If I like the look of frosted film, I'll build my own LED strip plus controller to go along with. I'm still torn... I think I prefer an all open tank, but those outlets are indeed annoying.


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## doylecolmdoyle (4 Jun 2017)

Perhaps even try a solid black background, personally I just use black card or tracing paper / drafting film for the frosted look, not being permanent (or stuck to the glass) allows me to change the look quickly, you could splash out on acrylic sheets (frosted, black etc) cut to size to low for quick changes.


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## McCarthy (4 Jun 2017)

doylecolmdoyle said:


> Perhaps even try a solid black background, personally I just use black card or tracing paper / drafting film for the frosted look, not being permanent (or stuck to the glass) allows me to change the look quickly, you could splash out on acrylic sheets (frosted, black etc) cut to size to low for quick changes.



That's a good idea, not going permanent, at least not right away. I thought about a black background but keep in mind, my stones are black and that will result in a rather bad contrast. Maybe dark grey transparent with a light behind it...


----------



## McCarthy (5 Jun 2017)

More parts arrived today, thanks to Amazon and Sunday delivery. Heater and skimmer for the refugium. When I ordered that Eheim skimmer I thought to myself "You don't need another ADA skimmer, this is just the jail tank". I have a feeling I'll be returning this for another ADA soon.. lol


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## doylecolmdoyle (5 Jun 2017)

The eheim skimmer doesn't look as good as the ADA but is way more functional with the auto float, they will suck in small fish and shrimp tho, can be a pain to try clean, have to pull the whole thing apart to get the sponge out, look at the ocean free skimmer, its a bit better designed but has less flow. These days I just put the skimmer in after I have done my weekly trim, dont leave it in the tank all week, they are pretty ugly.


----------



## McCarthy (5 Jun 2017)

doylecolmdoyle said:


> The eheim skimmer doesn't look as good as the ADA but is way more functional with the auto float, they will suck in small fish and shrimp tho, can be a pain to try clean, have to pull the whole thing apart to get the sponge out, look at the ocean free skimmer, its a bit better designed but has less flow. These days I just put the skimmer in after I have done my weekly trim, dont leave it in the tank all week, they are pretty ugly.




Thank you for the feedback. I'll test both the ADA and the Eheim. If I run intro issues, I'll look into the Ocean Free Skimmer.

Chances are I'll also place a custom order for a mini glass skimmer / intake combo.

This but much smaller:


----------



## McCarthy (5 Jun 2017)

The TwinStar Algae Inhibitor arrived today. Neat little device. Too bad the wire isn't longer, I'd rather have the generator in the cabinet instead of hanging on the outside of the tank.






 


It's getting cramped.


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## Zeus. (5 Jun 2017)

McCarthy said:


> The TwinStar Algae Inhibitor arrived today. Neat little device. Too bad the wire isn't longer, I'd rather have the generator in the cabinet instead of hanging on the outside of the tank.



IDD, same issue with mine too, was going to try and get an extension cable, but they have a very small plug, plus might have issues with an increased resistance too. You got you citric acid ready for cleaning it?

The problem with this thread is it makes all my photos I link look shabby  can we please have some pics off low quality


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## McCarthy (6 Jun 2017)

Zeus. said:


> IDD, same issue with mine too, was going to try and get an extension cable, but they have a very small plug, plus might have issues with an increased resistance too. You got you citric acid ready for cleaning it?
> 
> The problem with this thread is it makes all my photos I link look shabby  can we please have some pics off low quality




I'd like to contact TwinStar and ask them if they would custom make a few reactors with longer cable, or at least provide the specs for the plug. All I can find is this official TwinStar dealer in Europe but I have no clue who the manufacturer is and where they are located at. Do you know it?


----------



## alto (6 Jun 2017)

McCarthy said:


> Hows your bunch of sawbwa resplendens doing? Would you mind sharing some photos? Are they behaving or going nuts with no females around?


Finally moved them from the too small Q tank into bigger quarters - sorry no photos as am crap at it (& they don't look like much right now anyway) 
On arrival the fish looked to be all much the same - pale grey fish with a touch of orange on some, ranging from thin to emaciated ... 
they were quiet in the Q tank (45cm ADA) & almost seemed to be split into two groups, they'd range the tank but any movement outside the tank & they'd dive into the back wall of plants

They are now in a 90cm x 45cm x 53cm (tall) tank, the females are easy to identify with their dark spot (as seen in the Seriously Fish profile photos) & group looks to be ~ 40% females, only a few fish appear adult size


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## alto (7 Jun 2017)

It's a couple hours later & the Sawbwa are now traveling about the tank in quite the tight shoal - curious to see & not the behaviour I was expecting ... perhaps just the realization they can _swim_ 
These guys are staying in the upper third & seem to pause in one corner, then begin a few more laps
 - as in the Q tank they seem to have 2 groups, they'll mingle then break away, not sure if it's same fish each time but the relative size of the groups is fairly consistent  

I've some Microdevario kubotai & a few of them keep getting sucked into the excitement, then realize it's not their problem  & they can relax (they are definitely only the most casual of shoalers unless stressed)

Then there are 10 or so Sawbwa that are just chilling near the substrate, meandering about

Hopefully the streaming Sawbwa will relax  - I like my fish to be of the drifty sort

I've S vaillanti in the tank & they appear to be engaging in some major courting - she's in stunning color, he's puffing his throat (to demonstrate his ability to carry many eggs & hold many babies ) & of course lots of rushes & jabs to show how tough they each are 

The Sawbwa thought they might intimidate the vaillanti  but now carefully swim around them


----------



## Dantrasy (7 Jun 2017)

Hi mate, where in Florida are you? It a very nice place. I have relatives in Melbourne. 

Are you sticking with the 3 rock arrangement? I recently did a 3 rock scape (3 pillars really). Haven't got pics as it was entered into a competition. 

Try not to have the 3 rocks evenly spaced. As some of the surface of each rock is fairly smooth, try to cover the smooth patched with moss. Ideally a chop/paste dsm would be a better way to go.  

Imo, limit the scape to 3 plant species max. 

All the kit in the tank is nice, but i think you'll soon learn to live without most of it. Removing it for photos is a pain. And the effects of the twinstar are dubious at best. And do you even need a heater? How cold does you house get in the middle of Winter?


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## McCarthy (7 Jun 2017)

alto said:


> It's a couple hours later & the Sawbwa are now traveling about the tank in quite the tight shoal - curious to see & not the behaviour I was expecting ... perhaps just the realization they can _swim_
> These guys are staying in the upper third & seem to pause in one corner, then begin a few more laps
> - as in the Q tank they seem to have 2 groups, they'll mingle then break away, not sure if it's same fish each time but the relative size of the groups is fairly consistent
> 
> ...





I love your fish posts, can picture exactly what you are describing. I can't wait to watch them for hours to come.

MAYBE I'll add a 2nd species at some point, but for now its Rummynose Rasboras and some Royal Blue Orange Eye Tiger shrimp.


----------



## McCarthy (7 Jun 2017)

Dantrasy said:


> Hi mate, where in Florida are you? It a very nice place. I have relatives in Melbourne.
> 
> Are you sticking with the 3 rock arrangement? I recently did a 3 rock scape (3 pillars really). Haven't got pics as it was entered into a competition.
> 
> ...




I'm in the Tampa Bay area. Not sure yet with the scape. I have drawn a layout that I will try first as soon as I don't have to move the stand and tank anymore. I won't try any scapes without the substrate, its kinda a waste of time.

I do not want a bunch of small stones in the 90cm tank, this is not going to be your average Iwagumi setup. It will be much simpler and most likely contain only one plant (Elatine hydropiper or Hemianthus Callitrichoides Cuba), AMYBE some dwarf hair grass Eleocharis parvula. No moss. I do not want anything on the stones. They are way too expensive to have them covered up.

I thought about a Green Machine setup, but as a noob I don't want to deal with 5+ different plants and whatnot.

Not sure yet regarding the TwinStar. Some say it doesn't do anything, a certain majority claim to see some success. I'll try it with and without. If I manage to combat algae without the TwinStar, it will stay out of the tank or reactor, obviously.

The heater will only come on between December and February. I usually don't have to heat the house at all, but a few days each year it will drop below 20 C. So main reason for the heater is consistency.

Chances are I'll have to add 2 chillers, especially if we get hit by a major storm and the power goes out. The Rummynose Rasboras like it a bit cooler at around 20 C. My AC is set to 75 F / 24 C year round.


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## McCarthy (7 Jun 2017)

Received my "backup" LED light today. I bought it just for fun, the real deal (EcoTech with ReefLink controller) should also arrive today, waiting for UPS. For the price it looks really great. Blue / white / reds can be turned on separately and all LEDs can be dimmed with the in-wire remote control.





 


I also managed to get both CO2 tanks filled at a place just 30 minutes from here. I tested the GLA Mini SS regulator with a cheap diffuser. That GLA bubble counter is pure porn.




 


That cheap diffuser is a useless POS. The CO2 finds its way around the stone and comes out in large bubbles which go straight up and don't "dissolve" into the water one bit. I bought this diffuser because it fit into the JBJ filter unit. I wanted to place the diffuser in the canister and under the pump in order to keep everything out of the tank. As we all know, I ditched that entire JBJ tank. Needless to say, both the JBJ tank kit and this diffuser are cheap crap made in China.

In the refugium tank, CO2 will enter the system with a GLA inline diffuser.


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## Joellll (8 Jun 2017)

McCarthy said:


> That cheap diffuser is a useless POS. The CO2 finds its way around the stone and comes out in large bubbles which go straight up and don't "dissolve" into the water one bit. I bought this diffuser because it fit into the JBJ filter unit. I wanted to place the diffuser in the canister and under the pump in order to keep everything out of the tank.




I have the unknurled version with the longer tube+hook at top. They do the same thing but with enough tightening work correctly. Needed a rubber strip and a pair of pliers. They are indeed crap.


----------



## Dantrasy (8 Jun 2017)

Look into getting a reactor instead. A Sera 500 will do the trick.

What did you put in the bubble counter? Vegetable glycerine works very well.


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## McCarthy (8 Jun 2017)

Joellll said:


> I have the unknurled version with the longer tube+hook at top. They do the same thing but with enough tightening work correctly. Needed a rubber strip and a pair of pliers. They are indeed crap.



I saw the unknurled version on Amazon. I took mine apart and the seal was sitting sideways, corrected it and tighten it as good as possible by hand, same result. All the bumbles come out around the seal. I try the rubber band + pliers trick tomorrow, just for fun.




Dantrasy said:


> Look into getting a reactor instead. A Sera 500 will do the trick.
> 
> What did you put in the bubble counter? Vegetable glycerine works very well.




Just some RO water for now. Will vegetable glycerin last longer? Is it safe for the tank?

I actually bought a Sera Flore CO2 Reactor 500 for the main tank. For the refugium tank in the kitchen I bought a GLA inline diffuser, which might turn the tank into a Sprite soda machine. If I get too much mist, I'll get another reactor for this tank.


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## McCarthy (8 Jun 2017)

Alright. The permanent light setup for the refugium tank finally arrived. That UPS guy showed up at 7 PM, can you believe it?

I'm totally stoked! This EcoTech light and the controller are AWESOME.

As always, here a bunch of photos for you guys to enjoy:







ReefLink Controller to the right. EcoTech has an awesome phone app. You can adjust color channels, brightness levels, set timers, simulated the moon phase, clouds and lightning.








I had to run wires again through several cabinets, this time I spliced a surge protector into the outlet for the microwave. There must be particleboard dust in all my dishes now. 









All the manual controls can be reached easily upfront:









This light is simply stunning! Awesome colors, which can be adjusted completely, extremely bright in the highest setting, active fan that only comes on when the light is on high output - so far it stays very cool and the fan doesn't even come on. This light together with the GLA CO2 regulators are so far my favorite parts.


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## McCarthy (8 Jun 2017)

Didn't like those large no-name pipes in the small tank and just placed another order with GLA:


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## McCarthy (8 Jun 2017)

Updated the parts list and included the refugium. Project cost is now at $7,191.38


*Main Tank:*





*Refugium:*


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## Zeus. (8 Jun 2017)

You could always have the inline diffuser on the filter input. Thereby basically turning your filter into a cerges as well as a filter. 

Sent from Mountolympus via neural interface


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## McCarthy (8 Jun 2017)

Zeus. said:


> You could always have the inline diffuser on the filter input. Thereby basically turning your filter into a cerges as well as a filter.
> 
> Sent from Mountolympus via neural interface




Question is, how much CO2 gets lost in the filter?


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## Joellll (8 Jun 2017)

McCarthy said:


> Updated the parts list and included the refugium. Project cost is now at $7,191.38
> 
> 
> *Main Tank:*
> ...



what the hell


----------



## alto (8 Jun 2017)

You may want to reconsider livestock #'s

Shrimp - really should be kept in minimum groups of 10 (same type & species is their preference but OK if mixed colours, if 2 or more species, plan on groups of 10 each, of course you may get lucky & have a laden female & good survival of offspring ...) Note, back when, no one would even sell shrimp in groups of less than 10 
Also intensely bred shrimp tend to be significantly less sturdy than their wild type cousins (again stress is bad for long term survival)


For the Sawbwa resplendens, I'd not break up the group - keep all 24 in the main tank, they are a shy fish (ie stress which greatly reduces long term survival in fish) & will feel much more secure in the larger group, & you'll observe more natural behaviour & wider range of behaviours
(I've 30 or so)

Other consideration is establishing the tank, especially with a nutrient rich substrate, add in auxiliary plants during the first month or two to help with algae control & establishing the tank "balance"

Don't forget that ADA has it's own "protocols" for successfully starting a tank
eg, daily water change of 50-90% as required depending on what you're seeing in the tank during the first couple to several weeks (again depending), followed by a gradual reduction in water change frequency etc
Also look at the design of their fertilization series - very conservative during first weeks, increasing levels as needed re plant mass/growth



Well done on the itemized list 

(Sorry I've forgotten if you've done loads of planted tanks  )


----------



## alto (8 Jun 2017)

Sawbwa report 
thankfully the pacing has stopped (disappointing to those who like their fish to "stream" but rather a relief to me & fish already accustomed to a Quiet Life ) 

They are at all levels in the tank, some picking substrate snacks (fed decaps yesterday so perhaps that's what they're finding), some mid level, some surface
A changing group of 3-5 boys were dancing a bit ... centred around some floating plant/wood ... just saw the girl come out & she seems to be the object of interest 
A couple bigger males are beginning to show that nice steel blue body & iridescent flashes, though orange points are still dim - nose is just visible on most males, tail markings barely discernible 

And now there's a shoal streaming    but it lacks the edge of "frantic" that was so apparent the first day
- it began with 9 & now is 20 strong, then down to 7, then 13 ...


----------



## Zeus. (8 Jun 2017)

McCarthy said:


> Question is, how much CO2 gets lost in the filter?



Well thats the basic idea then it gets more time to get in water. Bubble free tank  except the pearling OFC


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## McCarthy (9 Jun 2017)

alto said:


> You may want to reconsider livestock #'s
> 
> Shrimp - really should be kept in minimum groups of 10 (same type & species is their preference but OK if mixed colours, if 2 or more species, plan on groups of 10 each, of course you may get lucky & have a laden female & good survival of offspring ...) Note, back when, no one would even sell shrimp in groups of less than 10
> Also intensely bred shrimp tend to be significantly less sturdy than their wild type cousins (again stress is bad for long term survival)
> ...





First tank ever.

Thank you for all the good info. The fish and shrimp numbers are "just" what I came up with when building the list. I'll focus on the habitants when I'm cycling the tanks. Should give at least a month of time. Not sure yet if I'll start with the dry method, I think I prefer wet, TGM style.


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## McCarthy (9 Jun 2017)

Came up with another scape for the refugium tank. Stacked high and with a cave / tunnel.


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## Dantrasy (9 Jun 2017)

Egg crate could be added to your project list. Prevents scratches and helps build height. 

Have you seen any scape pics you like the look of?


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## McCarthy (9 Jun 2017)

Dantrasy said:


> Egg crate could be added to your project list. Prevents scratches and helps build height.
> 
> Have you seen any scape pics you like the look of?




In the 90cm main tank I will use 1, 2 or 3 of those large stones. Not sure yet how many.

The tanks don't have to be completely similar but a complementary style it will be, because both will have SAN SUI stones, no drift wood and no long plants.

I'm wandering back and force between a flat / simple Iwagumi "style" setup and something with a lot more substrate, elevation changes and many stones in a "The Green Machine" style.

These 2 tanks are what I like:

The Green Machine version but with no moss in my case:






..and this Iwagumi setup, but with my more block'ish SAN SUI stones:


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## McCarthy (9 Jun 2017)

That first scape in the refugium tank was too much. Will be a pain to work in.

This is more like it... I like how these SAN SUI stones do best when they stand each alone, looking like those huge black lava rocks in the Red Sea.


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## GHNelson (9 Jun 2017)

Hi Chaps
I have purchased a similar diffuser to the one mentioned!
(see attached picture file below)
The ceramic disc needs to be removed and soaked in water or mild bleach for a few days!
Works decently after this...purchase some more  discs as replacements when needing cleaned.
I have one soaking in water a few days before I replace the soiled one!



hoggie


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## Tim Harrison (9 Jun 2017)

Nice glassware...watch out for the drop checker tho'. IME that design is very slow to show real change and may make it difficult to dial your CO2 in accurately.


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## McCarthy (9 Jun 2017)

hogan53 said:


> Hi Chaps
> I have purchased a similar diffuser to the one mentioned!
> (see attached picture file below)
> The ceramic disc needs to be removed and soaked in water or mild bleach for a few days!
> ...




I'll try that soaking too. While I bought an inline diffuser to replace this thing, I still like to tinker and make things work. Maybe I'll setup that "outsourced" JBJ as a 3rd tank after all. Just to see what I can do with it.




Tim Harrison said:


> Nice glassware...watch out for the drop checker tho'. IME that design is very slow to show real change and may make it difficult to dial your CO2 in accurately.




Good info on the drop checker. I'll keep an eye on them, using one for each tank. Luckily I also have the Milwaukee pH probe in place.


----------



## McCarthy (9 Jun 2017)

The second Eheim 4e+ Pro filter arrived today. I'm probably the only one running this filter on a 10 gallon tank. Water should be crystal clear at any time. I also opted to use the exact same filter on both tanks for redundancy. In a worst case scenario I can compare performance and swap parts in order to keep one tank running until replacement arrives.

I love that these filter hook up to a computer which will allow me to change the flow rate at night, or pause them when the auto feeder kicks in. These filter can also simulate waves, and they detect air bubbles in the system and remove them automatically.








The frosted film samples also arrived. Chances are I won't use any film, because none of them cover up the outlets in the kitchen. I would have to use solid color / none transparent film and that's looks like crap IMO.


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## alto (10 Jun 2017)

McCarthy said:


> The frosted film samples also arrived. Chances are I won't use any film, because none of them cover up the outlets in the kitchen. I would have to use solid color / none transparent film and that's looks like crap IMO.



I suggest you take a slow read through Mark Evans outstanding journals (one of my favourite aquascapers - love his journal style - tank comes alive)

Blue Sky Iwagumi 
- notice the effects of different card backgrounds used in the photo shoots, one of his journals includes some detail on trying the various cards & backlighting 

I'd just lean a card against the wall to block out those outlets


----------



## McCarthy (10 Jun 2017)

alto said:


> I suggest you take a slow read through Mark Evans outstanding journals (one of my favourite aquascapers - love his journal style - tank comes alive)
> 
> Blue Sky Iwagumi
> - notice the effects of different card backgrounds used in the photo shoots, one of his journals includes some detail on trying the various cards & backlighting
> ...




Indeed a good read, thanks mate.

I'll be busy for a while.


----------



## McCarthy (10 Jun 2017)

PS: just found this... this tank comes VERY close to what I have in mind:

- only 1 fish species
- only 1 shrimp species
- only 1 plant for a bright green carpet
- only stones, SAN SUI in my case
- no wood
- no long plants


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## alto (10 Jun 2017)

Another fantastic Iwagumi with minimalistic approach to flora & fauna 

Just Aquascaping "Next"

I want those "invisible shrimp" too  
but haven't seen any except at GarnelenHaus,

Note that in both "Next" & "Of Green and Stone" both rockscapes are very  textured (despite being very dissimilar  stone) - the San Sui stone is much "flatter" in appearance so you should play with substrate texture (gentle peaks & troughs with slope front to back &/or side to side, etc) 

Realize that when you add water, the change in media alters perception significantly (flattening is how I think of it), then light (especially LED) brings texture/changes in color back

In an Iwagumi I'd suggest filling the tank to check rock position & effect before planting - I assume you've a Python water changer (or similar), this makes fill/drain a quick process BUT Amazonia is "soft"  so I'd layer paper towels & plastic (just cut any "freezer" quality bags to fit - plastic is thicker/sturdier) when filling, most will float up & easily removed & leaving you with clear water ... leave it a couple days to decide if you love/hate the scape 

If you go with Elatine or HC you may want to dry start for a week to encourage rooting (depending on your plant stock), then fill & dial in LOTS of CO2 for the next couple weeks until you see steady submerse growth ... I'll sometime run CO2 24/7 during start up, just turning CO2 to lower rate during non-photoperiod - I've my tanks in a well lit room & plants definitely respond to ambient light, make sure there's some surface ripple to maintain good oxygen levels


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## McCarthy (10 Jun 2017)

alto said:


> Another fantastic Iwagumi with minimalistic approach to flora & fauna
> 
> Just Aquascaping "Next"
> 
> ...






Thank you so much for all your suggestions. I filled the JBL tank with water while I had a few stones arranged and sure enough, the perspective changed a lot. Wish my tanks would be double in depth. Oh well, next time.

 I gotta let those ideas sink in for a while and figure out if I want to change anything.


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## McCarthy (10 Jun 2017)

The final glassware for the refugium tank arrived today. GLA really defines quality with their range of products! Those pieces are even better than ADA.

















This is a comparison between the GLA and the Chinese outlet pipe, which somebody suggested to me here on the forum. Night and day. You get what you pay for.


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## alto (10 Jun 2017)

Yeah GLA is top drawer 

Wish they hadn't discontinued their tank range

The Refugium tank is an excellent place for "play" & learning


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## alto (10 Jun 2017)

I like the stones in the R tank but make sure you haven't created any equidistant lines - between rocks or between glass wall & rocks .... you want asymmetry 

In a non Iwagumi tank or Iwagumi with more plant species, stone placement is less critical but as you want a very "flat" aspect monoculture plant, the (defined) "spaces" become more important


----------



## CooKieS (10 Jun 2017)

McCarthy said:


> PS: just found this... this tank comes VERY close to what I have in mind:
> 
> - only 1 fish species
> - only 1 shrimp species
> ...




Rock placement and texture are awesome, that's why this iwagumi is brillant!


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## CooKieS (10 Jun 2017)

This is my '2 stone-2 plants' iwagumi, I used soil to create height and depth, this was my first aquascape and I always loved the iwagumi style and wanted something very simple looking just like you. Stone placement is critical so take your time for that. 





Be aware that this kind of aquascape is prone to algae in the beginning because of the low plant mass (twinstar will help for that) and then can be a lot of trimming work, using an hard toothbrush on the rocks helps too.


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## McCarthy (12 Jun 2017)

alto said:


> Yeah GLA is top drawer
> 
> Wish they hadn't discontinued their tank range
> 
> The Refugium tank is an excellent place for "play" & learning



They had tanks? My next tank will be 180 long x 45 high x 90 deep. Shallow and lots of depth. Obviously has to be custom build, already have a quote. With top quality glass $4500.




alto said:


> I like the stones in the R tank but make sure you haven't created any equidistant lines - between rocks or between glass wall & rocks .... you want asymmetry
> 
> In a non Iwagumi tank or Iwagumi with more plant species, stone placement is less critical but as you want a very "flat" aspect monoculture plant, the (defined) "spaces" become more important



Asymmetry and my OCD are a bad match.  I'll have to fight me on that one. Interesting correlation between a flat layout and the spaces. I'll have to experiment some.




CooKieS said:


> This is my '2 stone-2 plants' iwagumi, I used soil to create height and depth, this was my first aquascape and I always loved the iwagumi style and wanted something very simple looking just like you. Stone placement is critical so take your time for that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Sweet scape! I might have to think about my flat approach and maybe bring in some elevation changes too.

Thanks guys for pointing things out, really appreciate it. I can buy all the tech, but I can't buy skill.


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## McCarthy (12 Jun 2017)

Still waiting for those barbed hose adapters. They made it through customs but then the tracking stopped. The carrier is some bullcrap company with zero customer service. Without the adapters I can't hook up my tanks, because the in-cabinet tubing will be 5/8" and the hoses going to and from the glassware is only 1/2".

Meanwhile I ran the hoses for the automated waterchange system through the wall. Freshwater comes directly from a pressurized tank which is hooked up to my Reverse Osmosis system in the laundry room. The waste water goes straight into the washing machine waste water pipe.

The water changes will be controlled by a Siemens controller. Freshwater will go through the heater and trickled back in over night to prevent the habitants from temperature or TDS shock. At some point I'll also automate remineralisation.

Didn't want to put extra holes into the wall in the living room, so I came up with this... and yes... I got zapped... what I get for being lazy and not flipping the breaker lol







Who said a power outlet is only good for power?!







Wastewater line going into washing machine waster water pipe:


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## kadoxu (12 Jun 2017)

McCarthy said:


> Who said a power outlet is only good for power?!


I see you like to live dangerously...


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## Zeus. (12 Jun 2017)

kadoxu said:


> I see you like to live dangerously...



Type of thing I would do also, But he is on 120Volts so safer than our 240Volt supply


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## McCarthy (12 Jun 2017)

kadoxu said:


> I see you like to live dangerously...




Only thing dangerous in this hobby is using submersible heaters and pumps made in China. Did you see the internals of some?

One of my degrees is in Electronics, don't worry, I have this covered (AFCI, GFCI, wire and hose drip loop, all power strips and wires are mounted high, the Siemens controler will shut off everything if water is being detected in certain places and start an audible alarm).


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## kadoxu (12 Jun 2017)

McCarthy said:


> Only thing dangerous in this hobby is using submersible heaters and pumps made in China. Did you see the internals of some?


Now that you mention it... that's true. In the UK though, we usually have fuses in the plugs to avoid major issues. I tend to forget it doesn't happen in many places.


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## McCarthy (12 Jun 2017)

I saw a really nice nano today and decided, that I want one on my nightstand, and one on my desk.

Yep, that's right. I ordered tank No 3 and tank 4, hardscape, more soil, sand, another filter, another LED... SHOPPING SPREE!


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## CooKieS (12 Jun 2017)

Well, let´s hope you will love this hobby as much as shop 

60F is always a good choice, can't wait to see your hardscape!


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## McCarthy (12 Jun 2017)

CooKieS said:


> Well, let´s hope you will love this hobby as much as shop
> 
> 60F is always a good choice, can't wait to see your hardscape!




Well, I always admired tanks and was reading into reefs over the course of the least 5 years. At one point I was ready to start but my business partner talked me out of it because he used to have one in his office and that things went down under quickly one day. Somebody threw something in the tank which turned the water parameters up side down, and all fish died. I think he said people must have thrown pennies in the tank.

That being said, my business partner has no hand for things like that. And I was stupid enough to let him talk me out of it.

Life is short, and I'm not going to waste more time not doing all those things I always wanted to do. Having tanks long-term is going to stay with me from now on, and I have to catch up for all those years.


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## HenrySheehan (13 Jun 2017)

Hi, great journal. Looking forward to seeing this rank take shape. I'm also new to the hobby. Currently setting up a 140×60×50cm iwagumi tank with 80kg of seiryu stone. Building a new house which will hopefully be ready in nov/Dec so I'm just getting everything in order and be ready to go then. 
When do you hope to be up and running. This is my mock tank scape.
Going to have a natural gravel beach on the LH side and then two or three plants, sp.mini, mc and a tall val at the back behind both sets of rocks.  




Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


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## McCarthy (13 Jun 2017)

HenrySheehan said:


> Hi, great journal. Looking forward to seeing this rank take shape. I'm also new to the hobby. Currently setting up a 140×60×50cm iwagumi tank with 80kg of seiryu stone. Building a new house which will hopefully be ready in nov/Dec so I'm just getting everything in order and be ready to go then.
> When do you hope to be up and running. This is my mock tank scape.
> Going to have a natural gravel beach on the LH side and then two or three plants, sp.mini, mc and a tall val at the back behind both sets of rocks.
> 
> ...




Welcome to the forum mate!

Looks like your beach goes around the left, large stone. Would love that idea, also like the idea of a flat valley behind the stones. You have much more room for depth.

I'm now at 4 tanks being setup simultaneously. This is the current plan:


1.) Ultum Nature Systems 5N 4.6 Gal tank: scaping next weekend, order plants in 1 week

2.) ADA 60F 8.6 Gal tank: scaping in 2 weeks, order plants in 3 week

3.) Ultum Nature Systems 45U 9.3 Gal tank: scaping in 3 weeks, order plants in 4 week

4.) Ultum Nature Systems 90L 21.4 Gal tank: scaping in 5 weeks, order plants in 6 week


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## McCarthy (13 Jun 2017)

Meanwhile I hooked up power...







..and started drilling holes for the grommets in the cabinet for the main tank. Making sure not to damage the laminate or hitting on a screw hiding in the wood wasn't that easy. This is a custom made cabinet, I had to use a metal detector to find the screws.







These grommets consist of 2 parts. The longer half needs to be shortened depending on the panel thickness. The advantage of these is that they cover up both sides, and prevent water from getting into the wood.

They can be ordered here: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007CI3XL6/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1







Next will be 2 grommets for the in- and outlet hoses.


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## HenrySheehan (13 Jun 2017)

So you're new to the hobby and you're setting up 4 tanks in the next 6 weeks. Ha ha, great stuff. If keeping the tanks is half as addictive as getting them setup it should be an eventful few months ahead for us!

I've everything pretty much sorted and ready to go in November except for lights. It seems to me to be a minefield. I want led's and this week the daytime cluster control led 120.6 is ahead. Until I read something suspect about them and off ill go again. Also seems that it doesn't matter what money you're willing to spend because it still won't guarantee you success. 

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


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## HenrySheehan (13 Jun 2017)

Those grommets are a tidy addition 2 by the way.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


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## McCarthy (14 Jun 2017)

HenrySheehan said:


> So you're new to the hobby and you're setting up 4 tanks in the next 6 weeks. Ha ha, great stuff. If keeping the tanks is half as addictive as getting them setup it should be an eventful few months ahead for us!
> 
> I've everything pretty much sorted and ready to go in November except for lights. It seems to me to be a minefield. I want led's and this week the daytime cluster control led 120.6 is ahead. Until I read something suspect about them and off ill go again. Also seems that it doesn't matter what money you're willing to spend because it still won't guarantee you success.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk




That matches my experiences so far. When I just decided for a solution and ordered parts, new ideas come up and throw me back a week. But I'm getting there, only a few parts are missing and should be here within 10 days or so.

There will be a major second build series on my behalf when the main tank is cycled and running. This entire thing will be automated with an industrial grade Siemens controller. That alone will keep me busy for several month.

All that shopping and building aside, I can't wait to see my shrimp chasing the fish around. j/k lol

Saw this last night...


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## McCarthy (15 Jun 2017)

Well, AquaForest just called and canceled the order on tank No 4 (ADA 60F). Been on the phone now for an hour trying to find the same tank in any store in the country (US that is). One shop has it and they MIGHT be willing to ship it if they can find enough wrapping material. They are supposed to call back in 15 minutes. Fingers crossed, because most shops don't want to ship tanks anymore. UPS and FedEx like to smash things.

Anyway, some other parts for tank No 3 and No 4 arrived:



 


That Felxi light looks great on a tank:


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## McCarthy (15 Jun 2017)

I put the light temporarily on the refugium tank. It will work great for tank No 3 which is 36cm x 20cm x 20cm. For the ADA 60F it will be too short, so I'll have to find another light for it. I think I'll go Kessil this time.








This LED light can be rotated to the side for easy access:


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## McCarthy (15 Jun 2017)

PS: I'll be using Seiryu stone for the 2 Nano tanks. I ordered the following hardscape plus an additional 10 lb from a different source.


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## alto (15 Jun 2017)

Rather like this one from GreenAqua  

Elatine hydropiper scape


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## McCarthy (15 Jun 2017)

alto said:


> Rather like this one from GreenAqua
> 
> Elatine hydropiper scape




That really looks stunning. Did I mention that I also ordered 1 piece of driftwood and bright ADA beach sand (Colorado)?


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## HenrySheehan (15 Jun 2017)

I was talked out of a bright beach front for my tank. Seemingly very hard to keep. So I'm going with a more natural coloured gravel.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


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## HenrySheehan (15 Jun 2017)

http://scapefu.com/lighting-planted-aquarium-cara-wade/

Podcast on lighting. 

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


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## McCarthy (15 Jun 2017)

HenrySheehan said:


> http://scapefu.com/lighting-planted-aquarium-cara-wade/
> 
> Podcast on lighting.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk




I saw that "Build My LED" brand a while ago but don't get it. I see no specific lights for tanks on their website and the one I thought might be interesting is too long for all my 4 tanks:

https://fluence.science/store/vypr-series/vyprx-plus/


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## HenrySheehan (16 Jun 2017)

No money in aquarium lighting for them. The company has headed in the direction of horticulture lighting.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


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## McCarthy (16 Jun 2017)

I think all the needed fittings, valves and couplings arrived for the refugium tank and the pH probe T. Still have to order 3 fittings for the main tank. I might start working on the plumbing for the refugium now.


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## alto (18 Jun 2017)

I'm not much of a dragon stone fan but this scape is intriguing (really liked the stone scape!) 
- from the folks at Buce Plant 

Wasteland


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## alto (19 Jun 2017)

forgot to say - awesome name for a tank!


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## McCarthy (21 Jun 2017)

All those alternative hose adapters finally arrived. The UK seller of the Eheim adapter completely screwed up, those never arrived and I had to open a case with eBay in order to get my money back. But this has also a good side to it, they look better:







The Ultum Nature Systems 5N 4.6 gal tank arrived yesterday together with more Seiryu stones. The ADA 60F tank still needs to be shipped. The seller is slow. 

I think I'll start with the Ultum Nature Systems 5N and order plants this week.


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## alto (21 Jun 2017)

I was just going to ask after your 60F arrival 

TGM ships internationally  
(& they show stock )


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## McCarthy (21 Jun 2017)

alto said:


> I was just going to ask after your 60F arrival
> 
> TGM ships internationally
> (& they show stock )





I contacted them 3 times (2 emails and 1 YouTube comment) and the only time they responded half-assed was on that YouTube comment. Their shop is also not working properly. They didn't leave the impression to be reliable at all.

I'm also not willing to pay over a quarter MILLION dollars for a tank. Yep, you got that right...


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## alto (21 Jun 2017)

Something odd going on with your Search Result

TGM ADA 60F

Priced as expected

& they have a sale on as well


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## alto (21 Jun 2017)

Of course with all these tanks, a Tannin Aquatics style aquascape should slip into at least one tank 

I want Andrea Freel's tank - link from TA's Inspiration page 
- there's more information on the tank on her FB page & The Lothian Fishkeeper Channel


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## McCarthy (21 Jun 2017)

Did my very first "serious" scape including soil for the nightstand tank:


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## doylecolmdoyle (21 Jun 2017)

Image link seems dead


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## HenrySheehan (21 Jun 2017)

I dealt with TGM last month. Rang them and hey were very helpful in fairness. Shipped to Ireland and had everything in a few days.
Sent them emails since and they've responded every time.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


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## McCarthy (21 Jun 2017)

doylecolmdoyle said:


> Image link seems dead




I see the image, used the same upload link in another forum and they all can see it too. I even turned on my VPN and connected through a UK server, image shows.

Anybody else having issues? I think that problem is on your end.


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## Doubu (22 Jun 2017)

McCarthy said:


> Did my very first "serious" scape including soil for the nightstand tank:



You may want to add some sort of substrate support or else those nice slopes you got there are going to fall right over... x) Happened to me many times haha.


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## McCarthy (22 Jun 2017)

Doubu said:


> You may want to add some sort of substrate support or else those nice slopes you got there are going to fall right over... x) Happened to me many times haha.




I bought this stuff a while ago:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01IAZJSRW/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It's suggested on another fish forum and is supposed to be the same as the stuff being used by TGM. Will this work, what do you think?


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## Doubu (22 Jun 2017)

McCarthy said:


> I bought this stuff a while ago:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01IAZJSRW/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> It's suggested on another fish forum and is supposed to be the same as the stuff being used by TGM. Will this work, what do you think?



I'm sure it'll be more than fine, the main point is to have something stiff enough that doesn't dissolve that will stay in place. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## doylecolmdoyle (22 Jun 2017)

McCarthy said:


> I see the image, used the same upload link in another forum and they all can see it too. I even turned on my VPN and connected through a UK server, image shows.
> 
> Anybody else having issues? I think that problem is on your end.



yeah must have been something on my end yesterday (Im in Australia anyways not UK), I see the photo now, I would try build height, bit hard to tell but take a front on photo.


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## McCarthy (22 Jun 2017)

I got more ADA soil, sand and my first driftwood in:







Not sure I'll ever use the driftwood thought. Just wanted to have a piece to get an idea what all the fuss is about. Will drown it in water just in case I change my mind.







I thought about using a path-through fitting and elbow barb instead of a hole with plastic grommet for the in- and outtake hoses for the main tank but that won't work. Will need the slack in the hose in order to be able to take the glassware out of the tank without having to pull the hoses off every time. So back to holes and plastic grommets.







Got all the parts in for the automated water change plumbing. The wastewater T will be hooked up right behind the filter to prevent any gunk from plugging the 1/4" fitting and hose. Took me a while to find that 1/2" NPT to 1/4" OD adapter. Will use the same T and adpaters for the freshwater coming in from the RO tank in the laundry room. The fresh water flow will be electronically adjusted by the Siemens controller. 'Dripping in perfection' to prevent any type of temperature or TDS shock.


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## McCarthy (22 Jun 2017)

I found the perfect ADA (actually more like RedSea) style cabinet for my incoming ADA 60F tank, for only $105.

The 60F is 60cm long and 30cm deep. The cabinet is 60cm long but 40cm deep, which leaves 10cm in the back for a background LED light, room for a hang-on filter or for glassware hoses running in the back and right through the top into the cabinet.

These cabinets come in a variety of colors, including the all glossy white RedSea style.







All black with smoked glass door also looks great:






Or with a ADA grey colored door:







Or with clear glass door if somebody wants to show off his CO2 tank and regulator:







Glossy brown:








This also looks great, with frosted glass:







Keep in mind that I paid for my custom 90cm wide cabinet $750, so this is a steal at $105!

You might have guessed it by know.. yep, its from IKEA!

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/S79047797/#/S59047821

This is how the tank would sit on this cabinet.








I'll be making a trip to IKEA tomorrow, first time my truck will get some good use.


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## Juraj C. (22 Jun 2017)

Make sure to check the weight limit of the cabinet. This one looks sturdy enough to hold 60f (~50kg)but I was quite surprised when I discovered that some cabinets only have 20kg weight limit. In the end the are made of paper and hey not mdf.


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## McCarthy (22 Jun 2017)

Juraj C. said:


> Make sure to check the weight limit of the cabinet. This one looks sturdy enough to hold 60f (~50kg)but I was quite surprised when I discovered that some cabinets only have 20kg weight limit. In the end the are made of paper and hey not mdf.




It states "Max. load 44 lbs. per horizontal surface if placed on the floor." Looks like the shelf inside can also handle that weight. Based on the way the panels are arranged I'd say the top part can handle more, but the back is only your average thin board that prevents the cabinet from collapsing sideways. Hence I'll add either 2 x 2 by 4s or metal brackets under the top panel and some Spax screws through the bottom panel into the sides.


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## CooKieS (22 Jun 2017)

Got the same ikea cabinet for my 60F, they're awesome!


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## McCarthy (22 Jun 2017)

CooKieS said:


> Got the same ikea cabinet for my 60F, they're awesome!




Did you mention that before? I think somebody was talking about IKEA cabinets before.

Did you enforce the cabinet in any way?


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## McCarthy (22 Jun 2017)

I just finished the plumbing for tank no 2 (the refugium in the kitchen).

Holly s-word, that GLA atomizer is pumping out tons of mist! This is not Sprite, this is London fog in late January! scnr 

Will test-run this for 2 days to make sure everything is working right, check for leaks and dial in the heater.

Will also order a plastic container for the Eheim filter, heater and all the hoses.







That's the mist from 1 BPS:


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## tmiravent (22 Jun 2017)

water!


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## Juraj C. (22 Jun 2017)

McCarthy said:


> Did my very first "serious" scape including soil for the nightstand tank:



Looks good but I think you should use bigger stones and odd numbers of them.
The tank(glass) itself looks fantastic.


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## McCarthy (23 Jun 2017)

I bought 2 of those IKEA cabinets for tank No 3 and 4. They will hold the weight, I sat on one, being 200 lb.

Moved this tank from the nightstand over to the new IKEA cabinet. Will be able to look at it from my bed at any time and my alarm clock got its nightstand back lol

The 60F will be a perfect match, size wise.






PS: did I mention that I might turn tank no 4 (ADA 60F) into a reef?


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## AverageWhiteBloke (23 Jun 2017)

How dare you mention reef tanks in here, you should be ashamed! MODS can you close the thread please, reported


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## doylecolmdoyle (23 Jun 2017)

I want to try do a "Reef Iwagumi" in my bookshelf tank one day


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## Dominik_K (23 Jun 2017)

Is there any appropriate lifestock for a tank of that size in reef systems?
A friend of mine is really interested in those kind of things


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## McCarthy (23 Jun 2017)

Dominik_K said:


> Is there any appropriate lifestock for a tank of that size in reef systems?
> A friend of mine is really interested in those kind of things




A shrimp and 2 small Nemos shouldn't be an issue. A large sump in the cabinet will help with the water quality. Say hello to your friend.


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## McCarthy (26 Jun 2017)

I've been working on testing the water temperature and the impact of the light on the refugium tank in the kitchen. As I may have mentioned, I'm living in Florida. I have the AC running 10 out of 12 month, always set at 75 F, which is about 24 C. In those 2 "winter" month it is usually cool enough outside to keep the AC off. In those 2 months its anywhere between 66 and 75 F inside (19 - 24C).

Now, the planned Rummynose Rasbora fish prefers the water temp to be not too hot. If I manage to keep the water temp at 76F or below I should be fine but the question was, if the EcoTech light will heat up the water enough to cause issues for this fish species. The EcoTech light is extremely powerful in the 100% setting. Based on what I have read, this small tank should be run at no more than 30%. So I tested the water temp with the light off, and the light being on for 8 hours.

I'm probably the only guy around who uses a calibrated and certified FLUKE meter for this kinda job, but I don't trust these $20 thermometers mads in China. 

Water temp with the lights being off over night: 76.1 F:






Light set to 30% on all color channels. Really love the iPhone app.







Water temp with the lights being on for 8 hours: 76.3 F:







With other words: the heat impact from the EcoTech LED light is minimal. I guess that huge Eheim filter and high flow rate disperse a big chunk of that energy. Good outcome, I won't need a chiller. I'd say this tank setup is ready to go, no leaks either.


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## McCarthy (26 Jun 2017)

Testing the AZOO Mignon for tank no 3 now. I use the filter fleece and bags with media from JBL, perfect fit size wise.







This will be my filter setup until we have a basket that corrects the false flow of water.

















The water flow is fine in the lowest setting:







But on a higher flow setting it will overflow and bypass the media:


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## McCarthy (26 Jun 2017)

It was time to give all those extra tanks their own names and to decide on the final layout, stone, fish, shrimp and plants:


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## Juraj C. (27 Jun 2017)

Looks like you are ready to start scaping. Or do you still miss anything else apart from 60F?


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## McCarthy (27 Jun 2017)

Juraj C. said:


> Looks like you are ready to start scaping. Or do you still miss anything else apart from 60F?



I think this is left to do:

1.) Cut holes for hose grommets in cabinet for main tank.
2.) Do all plumbing for the main tank.
3.) Test a couple day for leaks and proper CO2 insertion.
4.) Program the Milwaukee pH controller, the Giesemann light system and the filter.
5.) Maybe find a CO2 solution for tank no 3, because that HC will grow slowly without.
6.) Do final scaping in tank no 1 and 2.
7.) Find the best online shops for the plants and order.

Tank no 4 might very well turn into an ADA 120F, still waiting for an answer from AquaForest. The guys who wanted to ship the 60F from San Diego are dragging their feet. They keep telling me that they have to find a large shipping box. I told them to take the tank to the next FedEx center, let them wrap and pack it, and I'll pay for everything. Last time they said they would send somebody over to ask. Why ask? Just get it wrapped and shipped...


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## HenrySheehan (27 Jun 2017)

Lol. Sounds like they're telling you porkies. 

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


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## McCarthy (27 Jun 2017)

HenrySheehan said:


> Lol. Sounds like they're telling you porkies.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk



Yeah, they don't get crap done. And to make it worse, TheGreenMachine just sent me this: "The 120-f is now a discontinued product from ada they no longer produce it so it would have to be custom made."

Why the heck would ADA stop making this awesome, shallow and long tank?! TGM just made a new scape and video, now nobody will be able to replicate that anymore.


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## Dominik_K (27 Jun 2017)

Maybe to few people were interested in those kinds of tanks. The smaller shallow tanks are great, as they offer a nice shape for a decent price. I guess 600 $ for a 72 litre tank is to much for a lot of people I think. Here in Germany, it's even more expensive than the popular ADA 90P.

I know it lowers the varity of available tanks, which is crappy. Did you try to get it custom-build? My current tank was made for about 90 €, which is about 100 $. I think the company (little local one) would have made a 120 f (with clear glass) for about 300 to 400 $.


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## McCarthy (28 Jun 2017)

Dominik_K said:


> Maybe to few people were interested in those kinds of tanks. The smaller shallow tanks are great, as they offer a nice shape for a decent price. I guess 600 $ for a 72 litre tank is to much for a lot of people I think. Here in Germany, it's even more expensive than the popular ADA 90P.
> 
> I know it lowers the varity of available tanks, which is crappy. Did you try to get it custom-build? My current tank was made for about 90 €, which is about 100 $. I think the company (little local one) would have made a 120 f (with clear glass) for about 300 to 400 $.




I looked up custom tank builders when I was thinking about a reef. One builder is affordable but the quality isn't good. Another builder has top notch quality but a long wait time and a tank is quickly at $2000 - $4000.

I think I'll start scaping the first 3 tanks. If everything goes well, I'll either order a 60F when they are back in stock at AquaForest, or I'll wait for a year and see how much I like this hobby. If I'm still that committed after a year, I'll build my dream tank, a longer and deeper version of the TGM 120F tanks. Something along the lines of 250cm long x 30cm high x 100cm deep. Super shallow, super long, and super deep, like a super wide panorama landscape.


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## Dominik_K (28 Jun 2017)

Holy crap, custom build tanks are pretty expensive in your area. That's nearly insane.

Personally I would recommend the second approach. You seem to have a good couple of bucks in your wallet, but there are other things to it: Trimming, waterchanges, feeding, fine-tuning the proper balance and even more 
For starters, I usually recommend a 60p-sized tank (usually a cheap one) to get a feel for it. Get your experience and if you stick with it, build your dream. Thats what I did, and today I got my dream tank (according to my finances as I am a student  ).
Of course this is completely up to you.


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## McCarthy (28 Jun 2017)

Dominik_K said:


> Holy crap, custom build tanks are pretty expensive in your area. That's nearly insane.
> 
> Personally I would recommend the second approach. You seem to have a good couple of bucks in your wallet, but there are other things to it: Trimming, waterchanges, feeding, fine-tuning the proper balance and even more
> For starters, I usually recommend a 60p-sized tank (usually a cheap one) to get a feel for it. Get your experience and if you stick with it, build your dream. Thats what I did, and today I got my dream tank (according to my finances as I am a student  ).
> Of course this is completely up to you.




With my current 3 tanks I'm already at $8500, so cutting corners now would be completely upside down.

This is the expensive tank builder, they usually build and maintain very complex systems for people with unlimited funds:

http://www.reefsavvy.com/services

I better get off before I'm going to do something really 'stupid'. lol


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## McCarthy (1 Jul 2017)

I got some work done and I'm getting close to ordering plants and final scaping.

I managed to make that IKEA cabinet a bit more stable by adding long screws through the bottom board into the sides and L-brackets for the top penal.

That being said, the quality of IKEA products is down the drain. All boards are now hallow to save material which obviously compromises stability. Other parts are not fitting well and one plastic part broke before I could screw it tight.

This was the last time that I bought anything from IKEA. They used to be "OK" for being made in China. Now its just cardboard and glue.












I also finally cut the holes for the hose-grommets in the cabinet for main tank and glued them into place. That was a big deal for me. It is one thing to screw up holes in a cheap IKEA cabinet worth $100, or a custom made cabinet worth $750 that came with a 1 month waiting period and many hours of planning.







Next I installed the background LED light strip on the cabinet for the main tank. Instead of ordering the Fluval EcoBright LED I went with the Phillips Hue System, which allows me to adjust everything through an iPhone App or my Home Automation System. I can also adjust a bunch of other lights in my entire house with the same App. Really love it.



















Super even light distribution, in countless color and brightness combinations. The App also comes with a timer and many other options.


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## doylecolmdoyle (1 Jul 2017)

You can hold a disco now! I find I dont use my coloured LED back light that much, looks nicer el-natural


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## McCarthy (1 Jul 2017)

doylecolmdoyle said:


> You can hold a disco now! I find I dont use my coloured LED back light that much, looks nicer el-natural




I can also adjust it to all white and chances are that it will be on white most of the time. Maybe with a hint of red to make that green carpet pop.


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## doylecolmdoyle (1 Jul 2017)

McCarthy said:


> I can also adjust it to all white and chances are that it will be on white most of the time. Maybe with a hint of red to make that green carpet pop.


Your LED looks to be a lot more adjustable than my light, I do like to run on all white, most of the colours look a bit weird, light blue is kind of cool!


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## McCarthy (3 Jul 2017)

I just grilled the Giesemann LED light and Bluetooth module. I thought they use the same power adapter, both are 12 V, but boi was I wrong. One has plus on the outside of the plug, the other minus. Not the LED light nor the Bluetooth module have any indication of polarity or a warning on it.

While I "should have" made sure to get it right, that my friends is poor product design. I'm sure I'm not the first, let alone last one to run into this trap.

I sent Giesemann in Germany an email on Sunday. Well Monday went buy and they didn't respond. I asked for simple instruction on own to fix it myself. It should be done with replacing a couple diodes on both items, but I wouldn't be surprise if they skipped things on the circuit too.

If I don't hear back tomorrow, I'll call. If they don't offer any help, I'll look into it and see what I can do. If I can't fix it, I'll take it to the range next time around and put some S&W .500 Magnum 700gr hardcast through it, take photos and upload them here for everyone to see. And then I'll buy another 2 EcoTech LED lights, the same one I'm using on my refugium tank in the kitchen. Love those lights!


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## rebel (4 Jul 2017)

Enjoying the ride. Keep the updates coming!-

Sent from my LG-H870DS using Tapatalk


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## Tim Harrison (6 Jul 2017)

It's all coming together well. What did you use for the hose grommets?

Is that a Besta cabinet?
If so you might want to screw an extra foot in back centre to stop it sinking in the back middle.


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## McCarthy (6 Jul 2017)

Regarding the fried Giesemann LED light, this is now really embarrassing.

The manufacturer called and we figured it out. The LED light needs a 24 V power supply and I grabbed one with 12 V. With other words, the LED light is not fried at all, the 12 V just didn't cut it. Hooked up the matching supply and all is working.

I mixed up the power supplies, because the Eheim aquarium filter uses the same 24 V power supplied and that's where the LED supply ended up being, and the 12 V must be from the skimmer or something.

I'll mark all power supplies from now on! I guess I'm getting old. 

What a joke.




Tim Harrison said:


> It's all coming together well. What did you use for the hose grommets?
> 
> Is that a Besta cabinet?
> 
> If so you might want to screw an extra foot in back centre to stop it sinking in the back middle.



Thanks, Tim.

The large cabinet for the 90cm main tank is custom made out of plywood and very sturdy. Tank no 2 sits on my kitchen counter top, which is also very sturdy. Both tanks use these long hose grommets from Mockett: http://www.mockett.com/cp3.html

Now, the 3rd tank sits on a Besta cabinet but has no grommets because this setup will run with a clamp-on filter. No hoses going into the cabinet.

Regarding this IKEA cabinet I'll have to add a center post inside the cabinet in addition to the suggested foot, because the entire back-wall is just some thin cardboard and not a solid panel.


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## Tim Harrison (6 Jul 2017)

Thanks for the link.
I strengthened my Besta cabinet with Besta shelves and cheap kitchen cabinet doors, the ones inside (doors) were cut to fit and clued with no nails. The ones on the back (shelves) stop the unit parallelograming.


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## McCarthy (6 Jul 2017)

Tim Harrison said:


> Thanks for the link.
> I strengthened my Besta cabinet with Besta shelves the ones inside were cut to fit and clued with no nails. The ones on the back stop the unit parallelograming.




That's a neat idea! Too bad the shelf I bought for this cabinet is made of glass. 

I'll just cut up a 2" x 2" and glue that into pace.

Thanks for the suggestion. Granted, my tank for this cabinet is only a 4.6 gal nano, but I don't trust this cardboard IKEA stuff anymore, and the other cabinet might carry a 60F at some point (that would be tank no 4).


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## McCarthy (7 Jul 2017)

Since I got the main tank LED light working again I was finally able to test it with the new background LED from Phillips. Both can be adjusted and programmed through an iPhone app.

In this photo only the Giesemann Freshwater LED is on, in a very low "evening" setting, programmed to fade out in 1% increments until 9 PM. In this phase the blue channels are a bit higher. This light also simulates currently 40 clouds coming in every day, lasting in average 1 minute, 1 thunderstorm with lightning each day and the moon phase is also simulated at night with up to 10% in the matching color channels.








Here the night time Phillips backlight LED kicked in, also in increments of 1%, starting at 8 PM and fading out at 11 PM when I typically go to bed.








Tried a couple programs with more color, just for fun:








Really nice, tropical turquoise:








I'll need the weekend to finish the wiring and plumbing on this main tank, then I will have all 3 tanks ready to go and will do final scaping with power sand, soil and stones.


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## alto (7 Jul 2017)

Wicked!


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## alto (7 Jul 2017)

Can you tilt or twist that middle stone - for me it's the most difficult shape wise ....  though it may appear quite different in real life & especially with water & light 

Note that fish won't appreciate the lightning - tanks (in general) are too shallow & light flash intensity is rather overwhelming


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## CooKieS (7 Jul 2017)

McCarthy said:


> Did you mention that before? I think somebody was talking about IKEA cabinets before.
> 
> Did you enforce the cabinet in any way?







Here's mine, they are two besta model; one large and one medium on the top of it, I've just added a plank in the middle...worked like a charm.

Had an ada 45P iwagumi with large seiryu stones and now my 60F on it, it hasn't moved since 3 years now.


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## McCarthy (8 Jul 2017)

Took my camera and the 18mm ZEISS lens out for a sunset photo session, for a change.


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## McCarthy (10 Jul 2017)

I ran out of ADA 13mm clear hose. Really thought I bought 2 packs but, once again, I was wrong. Placed another order with AquaForestAquarium, and also decided on the power strips for the main tank. Since I need 12 power outlets and having limited room, this wasn't exactly easy to resolve.

I went with Power Strips from Opentron because they are not your average cheap crap made in China. They come in a metal housing, with enough room between all outlets to fit different sizes of power supplies. They also allow the power supplies to be connected sideways, warranting that no outlets will be covered and unusable. The power strips from Opentron also offer a serious surge protection. I use them in the 12 outlet long version for my computers, my electronics lab and in the garage. Highly recommended!



 

https://www.amazon.com/Opentron-OT4126-Metal-Protector-Outlet/dp/B00O8NVPBI/


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## McCarthy (10 Jul 2017)

While I have to wait for the hoses and power strips I did the pseudo schematics for the plumping and wiring of phase 2, the implementation of the SIEMENS LOGO Controller.


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## McCarthy (21 Jul 2017)

I got life in the way and didn't get much done the past 2 weeks.

I hooked up the 2 surge protected power strips. Didn't want 2 wires and a 3rd adapter hanging around so I ended up wiring one strip into the other. For that I had to order (and wait for) a specialty screwdriver bit in order to be able to open them up. Yep that's right, I waited 1 week for some funky triangle screwdriver bits.

A quick shot with my iPhone this time around is below.

I hope I'll be able to work on 1 or 2 scapes this weekend. As soon as I have come up with something I like, I'll post some images and order the plants.


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## Zeus. (21 Jul 2017)

Nice power strips, but how are you going to integrate the PLC into the power outlets

I did 20 power outlets 



with 20 individual live power feeds which could be controled Via the PLC software. Did the neutral and earth on a ring circuit to reduce the number of wires. 



second pic pre final wire up


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## McCarthy (22 Jul 2017)

Zeus. said:


> Nice power strips, but how are you going to integrate the PLC into the power outlets
> 
> I did 20 power outlets
> 
> ...




I'll drill holes and use rubber grommets next to each outlet in the same way I did with the wire running from one strip to the other. Currently all outlets are connected internally with simple, long copper lines. It will be very easy to take them out and solder wires in for each outlet.

But I'm also considering getting rid of all that power supply / power strip nonsense and directly drive an industrial grade multi-voltage power supply. Basically all is run by 5, 6, 12 and 24 V and rather low amps.


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## McCarthy (21 Aug 2017)

I finally managed to scape the tank in the kitchen.


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## doylecolmdoyle (21 Aug 2017)

Good to see some movement here, thought his may turn into the world longest thread without a wet aquarium. To me the scape above looks a bit to formulated with a stone in each corner, I do like the two front rocks and the idea of using them to bank the soil at the back of the tank, I dont feel the two rocks in each back corner add anything, could do something more / better use of rocks in the back area.


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## McCarthy (21 Aug 2017)

doylecolmdoyle said:


> Good to see some movement here, thought his may turn into the world longest thread without a wet aquarium. To me the scape above looks a bit to formulated with a stone in each corner, I do like the two front rocks and the idea of using them to bank the soil at the back of the tank, I dont feel the two rocks in each back corner add anything, could do something more / better use of rocks in the back area.




How about this... higher banks... uneven number of stones...


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## doylecolmdoyle (21 Aug 2017)

Looks to be an improvement, hard to tell from that angle, what plants do you have planned for this tank? If all low carpeting plants they may be blocked if the soil at the back doesn't bank up higher than the stones in front, again hard to tell due to the angle of the photo, if using stems at the back I can see having stones higher than the soil working.


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## McCarthy (21 Aug 2017)

doylecolmdoyle said:


> Looks to be an improvement, hard to tell from that angle, what plants do you have planned for this tank? If all low carpeting plants they may be blocked if the soil at the back doesn't bank up higher than the stones in front, again hard to tell due to the angle of the photo, if using stems at the back I can see having stones higher than the soil working.




Makes sense. Well, here another perspective before I keep working on it.


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## McCarthy (21 Aug 2017)

I removed a few larger stones added way more soil and 2 smaller accent stones.

Plants will be only Hemianthus Callitrichoides Cuba, MAYBE some Eleocharis sp. Mini or Ammania sp. Bonsai.

I don't want to add many small stones, even though they put the larger ones to scale, I hate cluttered and overcrowded scapes.

Am I on the right path?


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## Dominik_K (22 Aug 2017)

Hi,

even if you don't like small stones being everywhere, I would think about adding some to smooth the transition of the cliffs. Currently they appear pretty straight to me and with some smaller stones adding to them this would look better. That being said, I like the start you made here


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## alto (22 Aug 2017)

Note that any of those "sharp" edges with the soil will disappear with water - soil is slippery stuff 
& a good thing too as it means a more natural slope shape will appear

If you want rockwork to look more "natural" pay attention to the strata lines - they should flow same direction, especially if rocks are stacked in a particular shape, tumbled rocks will/may vary more in strata lines 

- but then I prefer the rock style of this tank 

Mighty Cave

You may have a very different view in mind 

If you look at the rock scape packages at Buce Plant, they do a fair bit of mixing up of strata lines 

As you're doing an Iwagumi, you may want to look at effects of water & light on the stone colours as well 
Bleaching the seiryu type stone will usually return them to more until form oxidation (color) state - if that's your preference 

It's fantastic to see soil & rock in this tank


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## McCarthy (22 Aug 2017)

Dominik_K said:


> Hi,
> 
> even if you don't like small stones being everywhere, I would think about adding some to smooth the transition of the cliffs. Currently they appear pretty straight to me and with some smaller stones adding to them this would look better. That being said, I like the start you made here






alto said:


> Note that any of those "sharp" edges with the soil will disappear with water - soil is slippery stuff
> & a good thing too as it means a more natural slope shape will appear
> 
> If you want rockwork to look more "natural" pay attention to the strata lines - they should flow same direction, especially if rocks are stacked in a particular shape, tumbled rocks will/may vary more in strata lines
> ...




That linked Mighty Cave tank is a great example. The tank looks awesome for what it tries to reassemble, but I'm not looking to make a copy of nature per-se. That Mighty Cave tank is very well executed but yet just another "typical" scape. As you guys might remember from past posts, I want Iwagumi STYLE tanks without adhering to all the Iwagumi rules.

I think I have to set myself free and just get it done. If I'm trying to incorporate other ideas the entire plan won't work out and I'm going to end up with either something I don't want or it will be some weird compromised that doesn't look good to anybody.


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## Zeus. (22 Aug 2017)

McCarthy said:


> I don't want or it will be some weird compromised that doesn't look good to anybody.



It only has to look good to you


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## alto (22 Aug 2017)

I remember the Iwagumi bit  - the link was for rockwork that aligns strata & "fits" rock pieces together, which is a style that I like (obviously  ) 

I preferred the cliff aspect you had in Post #218
& those bigger rocks, though I'd tumble them down a bit

I'd like to see (you try) a single "cliff face" with the edge reaching across the diagonal into the back left corner 

But in the end, it's only about what you want to see when you look at your tanks


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## SKYE.__.HIGH (18 Sep 2017)

Just subscribed, I saw what happened with your post in the planted tank forum. I honestly hate that guy, he gave me an "infraction for writing sh*t, it was spelled just like that not even the whole word. And when other people don't even abbreviate thinks that should definitely be abbreviated or not types at all. I'm "somewhatshocked" that he is a forum admin LOL <-- see what I did there lol


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## doylecolmdoyle (18 Sep 2017)

Keeps us updated here, I am keen to see your big tank progress!


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## McCarthy (25 Sep 2017)

SKYE.__.HIGH said:


> Just subscribed, I saw what happened with your post in the planted tank forum. I honestly hate that guy, he gave me an "infraction for writing sh*t, it was spelled just like that not even the whole word. And when other people don't even abbreviate thinks that should definitely be abbreviated or not types at all. I'm "somewhatshocked" that he is a forum admin LOL <-- see what I did there lol



I'm not surprised at all. AFAIK he is not an admin, only a mod. But I sent a PM to the admin letting him know that I'm out because his mod likes to trigger reactions in order to pull out his hammer. Eventually the admins and site owner will see the bigger picture. Or not, I'd don't care.



doylecolmdoyle said:


> Keeps us updated here, I am keen to see your big tank progress!



Will do. I think I finally got all my personal stuff out of the way, including cleaning up after hurricane Irma flew through my area at category 2 to 3.


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## McCarthy (25 Sep 2017)

Well guys, I finally did it. There is now life in one of my 3 tanks! And it is the rarest fish there is. None of you owns this species! He even changes colors!

































Sorry, couldn't resist. 

This little fella was stuck on my porch which is completely enclosed with a mosquito screen. I tried to make him leave over several days by keping the door open but he was stubborn and playing hide and seek. Until today when I finally lured him into a Tupperware container. As a thank you for tricking me over the days he will be occupying a tank until the first plants arrive. Play stupid games, win stupid prices!

And now I'm off catching small flies.


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## SKYE.__.HIGH (15 Nov 2017)

Any updates? I was looking forward to these 


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## McCarthy (17 Nov 2017)

I'm finally back! Had so much personal stuff to do, it just didn't stop. I'm really sorry!

Anyway, enough of the excuses.

I will start with tank No 2 (Kitchen counter), get it running stable, gather some first experiences and then move on to the main tank and the one in the bed room. I'm about to order the plants but need to know how many cups I should order. At this point I rather order more in order to grow the carpe quicker.

The kitchen tank is only 36 x 22cm.

I'll order:

1.) Main carpet: Callitricoides "Cuba" (Dwarf Baby tears)
https://aquaforestaquarium.com/prod...ant-hemianthus-callitricoides-cuba-s-size-cup

2.) Background: AFA Tissue Culture Plant - Eleocharis Acicularis
https://aquaforestaquarium.com/prod...re-plant-eleocharis-acicularis-cup-size-short

How many cups should I get? 10 and 4?


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## steveno (17 Nov 2017)

Hello mccarthy 

Been reading through your journal with great interest. Love all thought and planning you put in each of you tanks.

Like you I'm I definitely into the minimise look of iwagumi style scapes.

Recently started a new iwagumi scape myself, which is now going through the long Dsm period to give me a better chance of getting Ug carpet . Not decided what fish and shrimp I was going have, but might consider similar blue Rummynose Rasbora and blue tiger shrimp that you have considered, would look fantastic,  if I can find them locally.

Really looking forward to seeing how your tanks progress and if you'll managed to get one of them up and running before Christmas...


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## McCarthy (18 Nov 2017)

I think I have found my final scape for the kitchen tank.


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## steveno (19 Nov 2017)

Looks alittle to symmetric if you don't mind me saying so, have you considered using a smaller rock on the right or burying deeper into substrate, might make it look more natural, thou this could be done with your planting. 

I've noticed an asymmetric scape will help create depth, which can be very difficult to achieve in smaller tanks.

Look forward see how this scape progress.


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## doylecolmdoyle (19 Nov 2017)

Agree with above the back area is a little to symmetrical, also when you have rocks that close to the glass it can be a pain to clean, if you get green algae on the glass you will be wishing you had some clearance for a razor or sponge etc


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## McCarthy (19 Nov 2017)

steveno said:


> Looks alittle to symmetric if you don't mind me saying so, have you considered using a smaller rock on the right or burying deeper into substrate, might make it look more natural, thou this could be done with your planting.
> 
> I've noticed an asymmetric scape will help create depth, which can be very difficult to achieve in smaller tanks.
> 
> Look forward see how this scape progress.






doylecolmdoyle said:


> Agree with above the back area is a little to symmetrical, also when you have rocks that close to the glass it can be a pain to clean, if you get green algae on the glass you will be wishing you had some clearance for a razor or sponge etc




I know what you guys mean, but if I take a stone out I will have people telling me again that the number of stones needs to be uneven. If I add 2 more stones, it will be crowded and I do want carpet to be able to grow around every single stone.

I'll try to move the upper stones away from the glass a bit, even though the right top stones is covering the glassware nicely and I'd hate having to give that "feature" up. I do have a very long and thin stainless steel razor-handle that won't need much space. Will have to test that.


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## McCarthy (19 Nov 2017)

Is this any better?


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## doylecolmdoyle (20 Nov 2017)

I am liking that a bit more, perhaps shift the front center stone a bit to the right or left so it isn't so centered, small stones like that you can move around later, in the end as long as your happy with it thats all that matters really! Everyone is going to have an opinion


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## SKYE.__.HIGH (19 Dec 2017)

Was there another hurricane that left you in a mode of extinction when paired with the updates? Lol, JK

I am only amazed at the patience you have to own all that equipment and not set it up. 


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## McCarthy (20 Dec 2017)

WELL, I finally got it started yesterday.

I had a bunch of plants ordered from a shop in California but the PayPal payment was put on hold because of their account. I had well previously placed orders well above $1,000, call them, and they told be that they won't ship my overnight order until the PayPal payment clears. Needless to say I canceled and that was the last time I ordered with them. Had to find another place and tried my luck with an eBay seller. They responded within hours and took my overnight order in an heartbeat even though they just closed down for renovations in their business.

I set up both the small (bed room) and the mid size (kitchen) tank. The main tank will follow as soon as I have these 2 cycled and some fish in them.

The main tank will now be a 'The Green Machine' style tank, and the kitchen tank is the original Cliff & Plateau theme.

Here the current situation:









I'll add some drift wood to the bed room tank, just needs to soak in water for a couple weeks. Thing floats like crazy.


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## SKYE.__.HIGH (20 Dec 2017)

I really like your kitchen tank. Looks pretty modern and simplistic, but once the foreground carpets it’s gonna look 437% better


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## McCarthy (21 Dec 2017)

SKYE.__.HIGH said:


> I really like your kitchen tank. Looks pretty modern and simplistic, but once the foreground carpets it’s gonna look 437% better
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Thanks. I realized that I was trying to make a compromise between my idea and what most people consider a proper Iwagumi. So I went back to my original idea.

The bed room tank is more my testing and backup setup. Just ordered CO2 tank, regulator and diffusor for it. Should be here by Friday. No GLA this time, this is just a "cheap" tank.

Now I'll have to figure out:

- amount and time of CO2 injection (right now at 12 hours a day 30 BPM)
- LED brightness, colors, kelvin
- how much and how often to add liquid fertilizers
- water parameters (I used RO water, full line of ADA additives in power sand)
- PH
- hardness
- when and how often to change the water

This is where I could use a bunch of pointers.


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## doylecolmdoyle (21 Dec 2017)

This is what I would do, water change every second day for the first 2 weeks, after this once a week, low light, max 5 hours a day for the first month, could go up to 6-7hrs after a month of decent growth, you want your co2 to drop the ph by 1 point before the lights come on, generally needs to start co2 about 2 hours before lights on, can probably switch co2 of a hr or more before lights out,  ferts from day 1 probably at half EI levels looking at your plant mass, perhaps even less, PH hardness etc dont matter so much, personally i never really measure these, when i do its only to gauge if i am getting 30ppm of co2.


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## McCarthy (21 Dec 2017)

doylecolmdoyle said:


> This is what I would do, water change every second day for the first 2 weeks, after this once a week, low light, max 5 hours a day for the first month, could go up to 6-7hrs after a month of decent growth, you want your co2 to drop the ph by 1 point before the lights come on, generally needs to start co2 about 2 hours before lights on, can probably switch co2 of a hr or more before lights out,  ferts from day 1 probably at half EI levels looking at your plant mass, perhaps even less, PH hardness etc dont matter so much, personally i never really measure these, when i do its only to gauge if i am getting 30ppm of co2.




Now that's something I can work with, thank you mate!

- How much water should I change? 20% or more?
- In average, how many bubbles per minute sounds right for about 10 gal and 5 gal of water?


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## McCarthy (21 Dec 2017)

The light is set to more than 5 hours, but it fades in and out slowly. It's max level is set too 55% only and clouds are also simulated a few times a day. I think this won't be too much light. Any objections?


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## kadoxu (21 Dec 2017)

My OCD loves the way you plant your carpets! 

Looking good!


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## Dantrasy (21 Dec 2017)

kadoxu said:


> My OCD loves the way you plant your carpets!
> 
> Looking good!



My OCD immediately focused on the missing plug  

Very nice work McCarthy. 

Do 50% wc daily for the first week. 

With no livestock you can go nuts with co2. 2-4bps is a good start. 

I guess you have a ph pen?


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## doylecolmdoyle (21 Dec 2017)

McCarthy said:


> Now that's something I can work with, thank you mate!
> 
> - How much water should I change? 20% or more?
> - In average, how many bubbles per minute sounds right for about 10 gal and 5 gal of water?



As Dantrasy said about 50%, I never bother with daily water changes but if you have the time do them daily, basically do as many 50% water change you can for the first 2 weeks, you can slow down over time.

Yes crank the co2 while no fish / shrimp, water agitation will effect co2 / o2 levels, you want a decent balance. Look into using a ph pen /kh test and read a co2 chart. When you have livestock plan to drop back on the co2 over a week or so before you add the fish etc then move to running co2 at a level that get you 1 ph drop before lights come on.

RE the lighting I am not sure if that will be to much light, probably safe, I guess it depends how powerful the light is. Just watch the plants for good growth and hopefully minimal algae.


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## McCarthy (21 Dec 2017)

kadoxu said:


> My OCD loves the way you plant your carpets!
> 
> Looking good!



Thanks. My OCD probably was the driving reason why this entire project took me so long. 




Dantrasy said:


> My OCD immediately focused on the missing plug
> 
> Very nice work McCarthy.
> 
> ...




I saw that missing plug when editing the photo. Drove me nuts and I had to fix that right away. Go figure.

I have this pen on order, supposed to arrive today.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01ENFOHN8/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Comes with calibration solution and has halfway decent reviews. If it's crap I'll get a commercial grade meter.




doylecolmdoyle said:


> As Dantrasy said about 50%, I never bother with daily water changes but if you have the time do them daily, basically do as many 50% water change you can for the first 2 weeks, you can slow down over time.
> 
> Yes crank the co2 while no fish / shrimp, water agitation will effect co2 / o2 levels, you want a decent balance. Look into using a ph pen /kh test and read a co2 chart. When you have livestock plan to drop back on the co2 over a week or so before you add the fish etc then move to running co2 at a level that get you 1 ph drop before lights come on.
> 
> RE the lighting I am not sure if that will be to much light, probably safe, I guess it depends how powerful the light is. Just watch the plants for good growth and hopefully minimal algae.




Thank you, will go along those suggested lines and report back.


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## McCarthy (21 Dec 2017)

Now I have to find out where I can purchase ADA Sado-Akadama Stone. The Green Machine only has small stones in stock.

I really want this stone for the main tank.


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## tam (21 Dec 2017)

The first one with the huge rock is awesome. It just needs a shrimp perched on the edge looking over.


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## Zeus. (21 Dec 2017)

Looking Good 

Slight criticism 
I would of planted the carpet in as pattern of 5 so they wasnt in rows. supposed to fill in quicker








McCarthy said:


> In average, how many bubbles per minute sounds right for about 10 gal and 5 gal of water?



Not that many but more than you think, hard to estimate as depends on your flow and surface aggitaion, I would invest in a cheap pH pen and do a CO2 profile. Best time to do it when no livestock

The full pH drop needs to done for lights on then stable for rest of photoperiod, CO2 off 2hrs before lights. less light intensity for first 30mins of photoperiod as the plants 'warm' up for full photosynthesis.
CO2 on 2hrs per lights is what most folk do but I have my 50L tank CO2 on 3hrs before as big pH drop - light yellow on Drop Checker


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## McCarthy (23 Dec 2017)

Must be doing something right... I guess...


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## McCarthy (24 Dec 2017)

Here the first set of water parameters.








The EcoTech LED in the kitchen tank heats up the water a bit. I have my AC set to 75F year round. With a few exception in Florida ""winter"" this is my standard temp. When it gets colder for a few weeks, it might go down to 71F.

The kitchen tank was at 78.4F at 4 PM, about 3.8F higher.

The fish I'm planning to use is Rummynose Rasbora. They prefer 18 – 22 °C which is 64 to 72F. How will they do when the water is 6F (3C) warmer? Will I need a chiller?

Is 78F (25 C an issue for my plants?

Does pH look good, considering that I'm still running CO2 24h a day? I'm waiting for the timers in the mail to operate the solenoids on the CO2 regulators.


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## doylecolmdoyle (24 Dec 2017)

Looking good, I live in Australia and would say our temps are similar to Florida, plants should be fine and I would assume the fish would be fine also, you may find a ph level of 5.9 is a bit low, but running co2 24/7 probably has reduced it a bit, if you can measure your kh you can work out how much ppm of co2 you have in each tank.


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## Edvet (24 Dec 2017)

doylecolmdoyle said:


> you may find a ph level of 5.9 is a bit low


I wouldn't worry about this.


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## McCarthy (28 Dec 2017)

I have bought more stuff for easier water changes (pump and hoses) and other items for water testing.

Here the current water parameters:









Since I have adjusted lighting and CO2 the pH seems to have settled nicely.

And while we are all waiting for the carpet to further close in, here some new photos:


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## McCarthy (14 Jan 2018)

The Kitchen tank started to grow algae because that stupid Ecotech Radion light system with the Ecotech Reeflink wireless controller screwed up.

I set the light output to 6 hours and only 27% based on doylecolmdoyle's suggestion. When I saw the algae, I kept a closer look at the tank just to find out that the f-word Ecotech Reeflink controller never updated the time and light schedule, not only that, it even managed to load a schedule that put MORE light out at almost 60%.

Then I tried to program the module again through the iPhone app and it still wouldn't use my new schedule the next day even though it said "Saved" on the screen. Tried again through their cloud based website, said again "Saved" and on the next day it was grilling the tank AGAIN! Then I tried to turn off the light with the manual buttons and this freaking piece of crap turn back on automatically an hour later.

Whoever designed their software and app is a total loser in my book. Did I mention that the website also froze many times when trying to update my system?

My little nano is doing perfectly fine with a chap $20 hang on filter and a cheap $60 light. My $2,500 kitchen tank with this funky $500 light was cooked into a green wonderland. Go figure.

Doing 60% water changes every day now, doubled the water flow rate, managed to reduce light output to 3 to 23% for only 4 hours a day after trying and trying again for many hours. Also put that TWINSTAR-II M5 Algae Inhibitor module from my main tank (not running yet) into it.

For now it looks like the algae growth is going back slowly.

It has turned parts of the soil dark green and I saw 2 or 3 of these node looking thingys on a long green hair.

Only plant in this tank is Eleocharis sp Mini Tissue Culture Dwarf Hairgrass. Should I throw a black blanket over the tank for 3 days? Any other suggestions?


Green patches behind stone only:








Hairy algae with a "node" / eye:







Otherwise, the dwarf grass it growing in somewhat decently:


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## doylecolmdoyle (15 Jan 2018)

Algae doesn't look to bad, just keep the light low but not to low that the plants dont grow and plant growth should out compete algae growth, that green algae on the soil kind of looks like BGA (blue green algae) which can be a sign of low nitrates and low flow.

That hair like algae on the glass is weird, could be some kind of hair algae, could also be some kind of organism, is it moving around itself or just with the flow of the water, almost looks like hydra but is probably some kind of algae.

IMO those algae inhibitors do nothing, I tried one once and algae grew on the disc thing, regular water changes are the best way to combat algae


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## McCarthy (16 Jan 2018)

doylecolmdoyle said:


> Algae doesn't look to bad, just keep the light low but not to low that the plants dont grow and plant growth should out compete algae growth, that green algae on the soil kind of looks like BGA (blue green algae) which can be a sign of low nitrates and low flow.
> 
> That hair like algae on the glass is weird, could be some kind of hair algae, could also be some kind of organism, is it moving around itself or just with the flow of the water, almost looks like hydra but is probably some kind of algae.
> 
> IMO those algae inhibitors do nothing, I tried one once and algae grew on the disc thing, regular water changes are the best way to combat algae




So in general:

1.) Do all planted tanks end up with some form of algae or is that entirely avoidable?

2.) Is it correct that once you managed to grow algae you won't be able to get rid of it ever again?

3.) Does this mean I will never be able to get to the point of water changes only every 2 weeks?

I had to lower the flow again because it was digging a hole in the soil. I'll measure for nitrates and the who nine yards soon and post them.

Thank you for helping, much appreciated.


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## doylecolmdoyle (16 Jan 2018)

McCarthy said:


> So in general:
> 
> 1.) Do all planted tanks end up with some form of algae or is that entirely avoidable?
> 
> ...



1 - I would say most planted tank end up with some form of algae, its all about management and trying to reduce the amount, even when the tank looks algae free wait until you start taking macro photos, you will find algae you never knew you had! 

2 - You can eradicate the visual signs of algae, generally by lowering light, making sure you co2 is sufficient and doing regular water changes, I dont know the technicalities but I think its pretty much impossible to get rid of algae spores, going back to point 1 I would be surprised if any planted tank didnt have any form of algae. 

3 - Water changes are king, I try to do them weekly but sometimes they are pushed back to every two weeks, when i start slacking on water changes thats when the algae gets a chance to take hold, some of the best tanks ive seen have owners who change water every 3 days...

Also that algae may not be BGA, hard to tell from the photo. All new tanks are very prone to algae, just keep up with the water changes, check light and co2 levels and you should see improvement.


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## McCarthy (19 Jan 2018)

How often should I change the filter media? The small tank has a hang on, the kitchen tank has a huge Eheim 350 filter.


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## doylecolmdoyle (19 Jan 2018)

Depends what media is in there? With the canister filter i assume its got bio balls or something like that, never change these, probably has a coarse filter sponge, again no need to change, both these can be rinsed in cycled tank water so you dont kill the good bacteria that has grown on them. Most ppl clean the filter about every 8 weeks or so. You may also have fine filter floss, this needs to be swapped out when it starts to clog, personally I dont use anything like filter floss that clogs and slows flow. 

Not to sure about the HOB never used on of those, same principles apply, perhaps needs to be cleaned more often if its smaller.


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## McCarthy (19 Jan 2018)

doylecolmdoyle said:


> Depends what media is in there? With the canister filter i assume its got bio balls or something like that, never change these, probably has a coarse filter sponge, again no need to change, both these can be rinsed in cycled tank water so you dont kill the good bacteria that has grown on them. Most ppl clean the filter about every 8 weeks or so. You may also have fine filter floss, this needs to be swapped out when it starts to clog, personally I dont use anything like filter floss that clogs and slows flow.
> 
> Not to sure about the HOB never used on of those, same principles apply, perhaps needs to be cleaned more often if its smaller.




Thanks.

This is the Eheim filter with all the media:






Afaik it is:

1.) Blue coarse filter sponge
2.) White fine filter sponge
3.) Bio filter media
4.) Ceramic filter media
5.) Some plastic spirals (not sure what they do)

The hang on filter uses:

1.) White fine filter sponge (could also be filter floss, not sure)
2.) Ceramic filter media in a net
3.) Charcoal pins in a net


So I will just replace the white fine filter sponge and the filter floss.


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## kadoxu (22 Jan 2018)

I have the Pro 4 600 in an overstocked 240L fancy goldfish tank and I clean the filter once a month (should do it more often), dismantling & cleaning everything, and also rinsing the media in water removed from the aquarium, and change the white sponge. And the blue sponge gets replaced every 3 or 6 months depending on it's condition.


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## McCarthy (24 Jan 2018)

kadoxu said:


> I have the Pro 4 600 in an overstocked 240L fancy goldfish tank and I clean the filter once a month (should do it more often), dismantling & cleaning everything, and also rinsing the media in water removed from the aquarium, and change the white sponge. And the blue sponge gets replaced every 3 or 6 months depending on it's condition.




Cleaned the filters yesterday based on your post, and also replaced the white sponge. It was very brownish, the blue sponge was clean. Besides a slippery film on all internal parts there was no other dirt.

Thanks!


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## dw1305 (25 Jan 2018)

Hi all, 





McCarthy said:


> So I will just replace the white fine filter sponge and the filter floss.





McCarthy said:


> and also replaced the white sponge


Throw them away and don't replace them with anything else. 

You don't really want any fine mechanical filter media inside the filter body. I like a pre-filter, the <"Eheim one is fine">, but pretty ugly. Personally I use a big PPI20 sponge block, they sell these for Koi ponds. 

If you have a look at the <"tower block filters"> at Swiss Tropicals you can see the type of block I mean. 

There are some pictures in <"Filter media question">.

cheers Darrel


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## alto (25 Jan 2018)

dw1305 said:


> Throw them away and don't replace them with anything else.


Can't do it 

I like my water "crystal clear" & it's just not the same without a fines filter ... though perhaps the quality of the tap is more to blame than the fact of a it being an aquarium with living beings (that should include plants too I hope )

I find my coarse blue sponge remains fairly clean while the white pad collects all the crud, it's definitely the water "polisher" 

I'm still not convinced on those odd floaty black rings Eheim introduced with their Pro 4 series, nothing collects in that lower basket & they are impervious to even biofilm, next basket is the Pro 4 square shaped media which is marketed as a BioMech though it seems less effective as a mechanical filter stage than the older Mech (square tubes), final basket is 
SubstratePro & the white Filter Pad 

Why don't I want a Fines filter pad? 
Sure it produces more flow resistance than the coarser media but it's not that significant if changed out regularly - I suspect it's rather less restrictive to flow than all the reactors & inline heaters people install so gleefully
If I actually owned inline heaters & reactors I _might_ be moved to actual measurements but until then I'll let the users check the physics of flow 

Finally looked at Eheim site, those odd black rings are MECHpro


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## alto (25 Jan 2018)

dw1305 said:


> I like a pre-filter, the <"Eheim one is fine">, but pretty ugly. Personally I use a big PPI20 sponge block, they sell these for Koi ponds.


I just can't get excited about those ugly pre-filters in my tank - my eye is well trained to *Not See* the heater  
but always *Locks On* those big sponges 

Have you measured flow rate with/without? & after a week (?)of use?
OR Do you really rinse that pre-filter sponge every day? 

I've a friend that uses sponge filters, as soon as you start moving that sponge to remove&rinse, it begins shedding debris like crazy ...   
though I suppose if cleaned daily, nothing like this happens


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## dw1305 (26 Jan 2018)

Hi all,





alto said:


> Why don't I want a Fines filter pad? Sure it produces more flow resistance than the coarser media but it's not that significant if changed out regularly - I suspect it's rather less restrictive to flow than all the reactors & inline heaters people install so gleefully


Yes it would just be a flow issue. If you aren't getting any flow restriction than you are unlikely to run into dissolved oxygen issues. In a high tech planted tank you are very unlikely to have low oxygen anyway, so it would really only if you have fish or shrimps in the tank, and then it would depend upon the <"Bohr-Root"> response of the livestock. 





dw1305 said:


> ........so I can hide them. In a more open tank I'd go for <"@Konsa"> APS pre-filter option.


One of those?

cheers Darrel


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## McCarthy (26 Jan 2018)

My 350 4+ filter already has way too much flow for this small 10 G tank and is being turned down both by the valve and the electronic setting. If I crank flow up just one notch I will have floating plants and massive soil erosion (and yes I used TGM style substrate support).

I also use a Eheim skimmer that keeps the surface super clean. Clean the sponge every other day.

I'm not sure why I should change my filter system? Doe a fine filter pad in the 350 4+ increase my algae problem?


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## dw1305 (26 Jan 2018)

Hi all,





McCarthy said:


> I also use a Eheim skimmer that keeps the surface super clean. Clean the sponge every other day.
> 
> I'm not sure why I should change my filter system? Doe a fine filter pad in the 350 4+ increase my algae problem?


No, if you keep it clean you can use a really fine "fines" filter. I'm away from the tanks a fair bit so I like systems that don't need too much maintenance, and I'm pretty tight with my money/keen on re-cycling so I don't like anything that is single use.

cheers Darrel


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## alto (26 Jan 2018)

dw1305 said:


> One of those?


Nothing like is available locally but going by photos those inlet/outlet tubes look restrictive, not to mention the 90* angle excellent flow resistor - or is my long ago physics class failing me 

I have run my filter in past tank incarnations with/without fines filter pads, unless the pad is completely gunked, it just doesn't have that much impact on flow (yes I actually measured flow rates back then ), I've even used more than one fines pad in various Eheim filters - the Pro Series has always performed very well against back pressure, the Classics though are very susceptible to back pressure (I only run these on 30C or 45P type tanks)

Anyway, apologies to McCarthy for this Snakeshand  
(Engine Summer John Crowley)


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## mike L (26 Jan 2018)

alto said:


> Can't do it
> 
> I like my water "crystal clear"....



In a _no-expense spared_ setup, I'm inclined to steer you towards "Purigen"....by no means cheap but performs really well if crystal clear water be the aim...

....in my own experience that is.

Experimentally, I once ran oodles of carbon in conjunction with just a modest amount of Purigen and an occasional drop of Seachem "Clarity" and it looked like there was no water in the tank...just plants and fish suspended in mid air. We're talking jawdroppingly "Gin"  clear!!

Mike


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## McCarthy (13 Mar 2018)

Just a quick iPhone photo... I'm getting there... might be time for the shrimp...








Royal Blue Orange Eye Tiger is the plan...


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## Edvet (13 Mar 2018)

Get a mini lawncutter for that


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## McCarthy (13 Mar 2018)

Edvet said:


> Get a mini lawncutter for that
> View attachment 113975





I tried my Lego "lawncutter", but it just won't fit. Not sure what I'm doing wrong.


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## McCarthy (14 Mar 2018)

Maybe that will do the trick!


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## McCarthy (9 Apr 2019)

Years later lol

Well, life happened and I didn't progress any on the main tank, but at least maintained the small kitchen tank.

The other day I walk by one of those pet fish isles in Wal Mart and thought, what the heck, lets just get some random fish. Really liked the GloFish Danios. Read the label for water parameters, asked for 3 fish, grabbed some tropical flake food, drove home, brought the bag to tank temp, and let them go.

It took them only a few minutes and they started playing in the water pump stream. They accepted feeding right away. Looks like they are easy to maintain, very active.

All that being said, my main tank is still waiting for plants, and I WILL get this done in the coming months. It was actually good to take my time with the kitchen tank. I found out how to completely eliminate algae, and the water parameters are super balanced. I can run it 2 months without water changes and it's all clear and within spec.

I know.. the grass needs to be mowed. But then again, they like hiding in it.


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## Edvet (10 Apr 2019)

Plus on the tank, haevy minus on the glofish though


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## Jayefc1 (10 Apr 2019)

Edvet said:


> Plus on the tank, haevy minus on the glofish though


Do you not like the glowfish


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## Edvet (10 Apr 2019)

Any manipulation like injecting with dye or manipulating genetic material just to be glow in the dark is against my feeling of respect for animals.
(Of course there can be many discussions of keeping animals in general, but just adjusting them, with no regards to any natural neccesities, just to increase sells, by any manipulating, i am dead set against.
Just like i am against all the selective breeding to change dogs and cats into fashion accessories.
I am not against selective breeding to enhance for instance disease resistance in crops, i am against incorporating, through genetical manipulation,  resistance against certain weedkillers, so you can market those crops in combiation with said weedkiller.
I am against selective breeding which makes a chicken grow 1 kg in 6-8 weeks, sadly i blame the consumer for this, not willing to pay a reasonable price for a more animal friendly product, be it pork, chicken or eggs.)


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## zozo (10 Apr 2019)

Jayefc1 said:


> Do you not like the glowfish


 Ed is a Vet.. He probably knows some inside details that are not shared with the public. 

In th early days Glofish were put in a agressive bath to distroy the protective mucus layer on their skin. Than after that get injected with a flourescent agent.
After this again the are left alone to hopefully heal and grow back their protective mucus. Mean while a great deal of the fish doesnt survive this treatment.
Imagine how many fish die a horrible death to provide the trade with a viable number of glowing fish. This method probably still goes on in the dark aleys of the trade..

Since this cruel commercial method of coloring fish surfacced, it caused some uproar with the animal welfare orginazations and some bad media attention. And since it actualy was a very succesfull trade, 10% of all ornamental fish sold in the USA are glofish. A bunch of commercial nutty professors gathered and developed a way to do it less stressful for the fish to make them glow with genetic manipulation. Claiming it is completely harmless and painless method.

Even if so, fishes manipulated like this are commercial lab freaks and have nothing to do with nature. We could ask the question should such commercial activities with geneticaly modifying animals into little Frankensteins to entertain little children etc. be supported or dismissed?..


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## Jayefc1 (10 Apr 2019)

Wow I never even realised it was a change to the fish now I understand why you dont like them thanks I have learnt something it most definitely should not be supported it's wrong so how do we know what has been modified and what has not


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## Zeus. (10 Apr 2019)

Edvet said:


> Any manipulation like injecting with dye or manipulating genetic material just to be glow in the dark is against my feeling of respect for animals.
> (Of course there can be many discussions of keeping animals in general, but just adjusting them, with no regards to any natural neccesities, just to increase sells, by any manipulating, i am dead set against.
> Just like i am against all the selective breeding to change dogs and cats into fashion accessories.
> I am not against selective breeding to enhance for instance disease resistance in crops, i am against incorporating, through genetical manipulation,  resistance against certain weedkillers, so you can market those crops in combiation with said weedkiller.
> I am against selective breeding which makes a chicken grow 1 kg in 6-8 weeks, sadly i blame the consumer for this, not willing to pay a reasonable price for a more animal friendly product, be it pork, chicken or eggs.)


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## Tim Harrison (10 Apr 2019)

Jayefc1 said:


> so how do we know what has been modified and what has not


I always research the plants and animals I want to include in my scapes, if only to ensure that they're suitable. I've been in this hobby for several decades on and off and have learnt a lot but I'm also aware that as science progresses things change so research is also necessary to stay up to date. I've often discovered that knowledge I've taken for granted is either inaccurate, no longer relevant, or just plain wrong.


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## Jayefc1 (10 Apr 2019)

That's where your years of experience comes into play and my lack of experience  needs the people of ukaps to help me learn and I do fully appreciate what all you guys pass on


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## zozo (10 Apr 2019)

Jayefc1 said:


> how do we know what has been modified and what has not



Good question, we don't till the media tells us so.. All tho some things might be relatively obvious for the older and more experienced hobbyist when we suddenly see a number of fish sp. appear in the trade that glow flourescent pink or in an other variety of colors.

Genetic manipulation is rather popular nowadays and in any case it is deemed harmless.. The truth is we do not know because we yet do not know everything about  it. We assume it is harmless, what's unknown is the long run. We already have genetic manipulated Corn, soja, tomatos and who know's what more. Those alledgedly harmless manipulated vegtables are already around for over a decade. Manipulated to be dissease resistant and or grow bigger.

But recent studies suspect with a high degree of certainty that the pollen from geneticaly manipulated flowering plants that need insect polination are harmfull to bees. SInce after a few generation growing these manipulated crops,1000nds of bee keepers report loosing large numbers of bee populations suddenly dying without any obvious reason. And all are in the vicinity of manipulated crop fields. The bees depend on the pollen as food source too.. Without bees the farming industry is doomed.

Playing god and changing the blueprint of life to fight the cons of mother nature.. in the end it could backfire on th elong run resulting in a fight against ourselfs.


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## McCarthy (10 Apr 2019)

Well, that's what I get for taking so long, and finally making an unplanned and uneducated decision in a store. I had no clue.

I won't buy them again, obviously. I don't want to support any of this with my money.

When it comes to meats and any kind of food, I only buy none GMO, organic produce and farm-raised meats. Have been doing this for at least 5 years. It tripled my monthly grocery receipts, because in the US it is very expensive. It costs me $700 to $900 each month, for just one person. It really is worth it on both ends. And I feel MUCH better eating as health as I can. I don't touch any processed food, no refined sugars, no dairy, no grains. A full on Paleo diet.

Since I have bought these 3 guys I will keep them and take care of them. They seem to be very healthy, and smart for their size. They learned quickly, the moment they see the food container, they come to the surface right away and start going nuts over the flakes the moment they hit the water.


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## alto (10 Apr 2019)

Great to see this update (is there a “dancing with joy” emoticon?  Apple had a (coincidental) dancing snowman for a while but he’s become a victim of Upgrade )

Zebra Danios are used extensively in all sorts of research, the project where jelly fish (I think) “glo” was integrated into host DNA and then successfully transcribed was not about making cute shiny fish ... that is just a serendipitous offshoot where science R&D actually might pay for itself    

So enjoy your fish 
No fish were harmed in the making of this production 

And this is such an improvement over the dye injection or tattooing of fish


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## McCarthy (10 Apr 2019)

alto said:


> Great to see this update (is there a “dancing with joy” emoticon?  Apple had a (coincidental) dancing snowman for a while but he’s become a victim of Upgrade )
> 
> Zebra Danios are used extensively in all sorts of research, the project where jelly fish (I think) “glo” was integrated into host DNA and then successfully transcribed was not about making cute shiny fish ... that is just a serendipitous offshoot where science R&D actually might pay for itself
> 
> ...




Thanks, that summarizes what I have just found out researching GloFish.


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## Jayefc1 (10 Apr 2019)

So I did see some glowlight dannios  in a  shop yesterday and they had the zebra striping on them but no where near the colour of the ones in the pic I did look them up and it said nothing about them being modified are all glowlight fish genetically inhansed


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## Jayefc1 (10 Apr 2019)

Sorry for hijacking your thread Mcarthy


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## McCarthy (10 Apr 2019)

Jayefc1 said:


> Sorry for hijacking your thread Mcarthy



No problem.

The GloFish is a patented and trademarked brand of genetically engineered fluorescent fish.

Here a copy and paste from Wiki:

In 1999, Dr. Zhiyuan Gong[2] and his colleagues at the National University of Singapore were working with a gene that encodes the green fluorescent protein (GFP), originally extracted from a jellyfish, that naturally produced bright green fluorescence. They inserted the gene into a zebrafish embryo, allowing it to integrate into the zebrafish's genome, which caused the fish to be brightly fluorescent under both natural white light and ultraviolet light. Their goal was to develop a fish that could detect pollution by selectively fluorescing in the presence of environmental toxins. The development of the constantly fluorescing fish was the first step in this process, and the National University of Singapore filed a patent application on this work.[3] Shortly thereafter, his team developed a line of red fluorescent zebra fish by adding a gene from a sea coral, and orange-yellow fluorescent zebra fish, by adding a variant of the jellyfish gene. Later, a team of researchers at the National Taiwan University, headed by Professor Huai-Jen Tsai (蔡懷禎), succeeded in creating a medaka (rice fish) with a fluorescent green color, which, like the zebrafish, is a model organism used in biology.

The scientists from NUS and businessmen Alan Blake and Richard Crockett from Yorktown Technologies, L.P., a company in Austin, Texas, met and a deal was signed whereby Yorktown obtained the worldwide rights to market the fluorescent zebrafish, which Yorktown subsequently branded as "GloFish".


I didn't try any black light on them, and won't because that really looks unnatural to me. That being said, mine are really that colorful.


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## mort (10 Apr 2019)

Jayefc1 said:


> So I did see some glowlight dannios  in a  shop yesterday and they had the zebra striping on them but no where near the colour of the ones in the pic I did look them up and it said nothing about them being modified are all glowlight fish genetically inhansed



Glowlight danio, Celestichthys choprae are completely natural. You might find dyed fish over here still but glo fish aren't allowed to be sold in Europe because they are genetically modified. 

I completely agree with alto above in that they are more "ethical" than tattooed or dyed fish as it was only their family embryo which was modified and each generation needs no further manipulation. I wouldn't personally want to see them for sale but they are a long way from inbred, weakened fish that suffer from life long health issues.

So enjoy them Mccarthy and just replace them with something more natural when the time comes. I love the simplicity of the scape btw and the algal covering of the rock looks really natural.


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## alto (10 Apr 2019)

They’ve just been allowed on a probationary sale in Canada for 6 months or so (will likely then be extended as usual good will gesture to our Southern Neighbours  Florida company has distribution in NA for a specific list of fish species) 
Modified Zebra Danios are slipping in from Asia but not the same quality of “glo” - or price

The glo white/black skirt tetras are surprisingly popular even at their (absurd) price
AND the Big Box shops are selling them along with new 5 gal tanks


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## FishLifeLondon (10 Apr 2019)

This has raised some unforeseen, but interesting questions.
The way I see it is GMO is only bad if it negatively affects the organisms’ welfare or if it interferes with natural selection in nature. GMO is not inherently worse than selective breeding.

The GMO Danios won’t experience any pain. They may react differently to each other now that they are fluorescent, but I wouldn’t know. They won’t have any interference in nature. As such, I don’t think it’s anymore immoral to keep the, than the typical Zebra Danio. However, I would never buy these fish as I keep aquariums for the enjoyment of a connection to nature and artistically aim to emulate nature and these fish would kind of undermine the vibe! Then again, I’m been dreaming of variegated Bucephalandra and Anubias recently. Despite, being less vulgar, they are still unconvincingly unnatural.


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## McCarthy (10 Apr 2019)

My general concern in regards to GMO is the long-term effect. Can we really control what's going to happen down the road when certain species make it back into nature and crossbreed with others? Or will they be less healthy?


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## Tim Harrison (10 Apr 2019)

I think the real ethical argument centres on the conflict between the use of GM technology for making a quick buck rather than its use for easing the suffering of humanity.


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## Jayefc1 (10 Apr 2019)

It was these ones i have seen in pets at home went to get cat food and just looked and they shooled beautifully that was what really caught my eye


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## Tim Harrison (10 Apr 2019)

Nice fish, they're not GM modified, so you're safe 
I've kept them myself, they're very active a good schoolers.


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## Edvet (10 Apr 2019)

FishLifeLondon said:


> variegated Bucephalandra and Anubias


These are natural variations which appear in nature also.

I don''t have problems with selection to enhance features, people have done that for thousands of years, Heck even nature has done that for milions of years.
Selecting unhealthy features, like seen in all the brachycephalic dogs or in our meat poultry, is detrimental to the health of these animals.
Manipulating genes to include certain features is a border i don''t feel is healthy to cross, especially as there can be very big implemantations. Selective breeding goes slower and gives more time to judge and adjust the effects.


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## Jayefc1 (10 Apr 2019)

I wouldn't generally buy from pets at home the tanks are not great but they only arrived yesterday as one of there specials once there gone there gone kinda thing


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## McCarthy (10 Apr 2019)

Tim Harrison said:


> I think the real ethical argument centres on the conflict between the use of GM technology for making a quick buck rather than its use for easing the suffering of humanity.



GM tech is used and abused even if it's for easing the suffering of humanity. Ranging from health care providers, insurance companies and the entire pharma cartel. Things may still be better in Europe, but the US system is brutal and sucks every cent out of humanity.

Monsanto is another example and doesn't need any further explanation.


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## Tim Harrison (10 Apr 2019)

McCarthy said:


> GM tech is used and abused even if it's for easing the suffering of humanity. Ranging from health care providers, insurance companies and the entire pharma cartel. Things may still be better in Europe, but the US system is brutal and sucks every cent out of humanity.
> 
> Monsanto is another example and doesn't need any further explanation.



I think I'd classify all of the above as in it to make a fast buck...


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## McCarthy (10 Apr 2019)

Tim Harrison said:


> I think I'd classify all of the above as in it to make a fast buck...



The consequence seems to be that there is not much left where GM doesn't circle around the profit. Sooner or later that's the biggest factor IMO.


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## FishLifeLondon (10 Apr 2019)

Edvet and Tim good insights. 

What do you mean by fast bucks. I assume you mean when screwing around with animals form and colour. Perhaps, also when using expensive patents like the gold rice scenario. Or even the expensive manufactured insulin in the US.


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## mort (10 Apr 2019)

Jayefc1 said:


> I wouldn't generally buy from pets at home the tanks are not great but they only arrived yesterday as one of there specials once there gone there gone kinda thing



They are a really common species that should be available easily for any lfs to order. I have them myself and whilst I love them for their activity and hardiness you really need tank mates that aren't intimidated by constantly swimming fish. I know plenty of people have seen fish like cpds hide away or be chased into the plants by their activity. The problem can be amplified by their tendency to hog the middle waters, my pencilfish certainly prefer the tank without them.


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## zozo (11 Apr 2019)

FishLifeLondon said:


> What do you mean by fast bucks



Buck is a synonym, more a slang for Dollar.. A fast Buck is "Easy made money".


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## Tim Harrison (11 Apr 2019)

Like Marcel says. But to expand a little...hijacking technology and corrupting it's more ethical aims for frivolous purposes like glowfish.


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## alto (12 Apr 2019)

FishLifeLondon said:


> They won’t have any interference in nature.


There is always biological cost - cell energy and “manufacturing” machinery and components that would go into more useful proteins etc is instead diverted to this novel molecule which offers no evolutionary advantage

Rumour is that there are some longterm consequences re internal (organ & cellular) damage, reduced lifespan etc

But apparently they sell “like hot cakes” at a local shop (which brought them in after constant customer requests)


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## McCarthy (13 Apr 2019)

I mowed the yard. Love those guys. They don't show any fear. I was working the scissors and other equipment for an hour in the tank and they picked on my skin and inspected every piece of equipment. Was a real pain in the ass to make sure that I didn't cut any of them.

Now they are schooling and chasing around nonstop, so much energy.


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## McCarthy (13 Apr 2019)

They do not like holding still for the camera, that's for sure! I'd say two females and one guy.


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## McCarthy (16 Apr 2019)

Well, one female was chasing the guy constantly, and soon after the other female ganged up on him as well.

The females are now in the dog house that I put up within an hour on Sunday.

They guy is happy as a clamp and came out of hiding, the females get along as well.

I think I'll only add some moss to it.


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