# Please help :s GSA and Diatoms



## Sirkavu (24 May 2018)

hey Guys,

Hope you’re all well.

So I have my tank for about 2 months now. It’s a 180l Jewel Rio with its equipment only.
- 2x 29w led lights have aluminium foil covering galf of it
- water tube turned up so the surface can move
- dosing 10ml of macro: Mon, Wed, Fri
- dosing 10ml of micro: Tue, Thu, Sat
- LC easy carb 5ml every morning
- lights on for 5h each day

In my tank I have
18 neon tetras
6 Amano shrimps
2 golden mollies

My plants are
Monte Carlo
X1 Anubias
x3 valleria
x4 Bacopa
x3 echinodorus paniculatus (Amazon sword)
x1 alternathera reineckii
Few Ludwigia repens

How the problem is that since last week o started to have some brown algae on my plants - mostly on anubias and the Amazon swords - and since yesterday I started having blue spots on my rocks.

I’ve been reading and I think it’s because when I added my Amanos they are all my alternathera leafs in 2 days  and when I opened my filter on Sunday it looked like this:






It’s less now though. So I’m gettin new foam pads to replace those.

I am thinking on getting a new pump, maybe jbl e1501 to get more rotation on my water but I still don’t know what else I’m doing wrong :/
Also, last week when I tried to “fix” my Monte Carlo, I accidentally took some out and kinda touched the substracto - yeah saw many dirt coming out.

See my algae pictures - sorry for the low quality heh


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## Zeus. (24 May 2018)

Whats your WC regime? 
There's no need to change the foam pads just give them a good clean, and clean them regularly.if you put new ones in they will have no bacteria on the so anti productive. Even using tap water striaght out of the tap is fine, bacteria are tougher than we think.
LC is best dosed just before lights on if you can.
Plants don't look too bad at all! How long have the amanos been in?


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## Sirkavu (24 May 2018)

Zeus. said:


> Whats your WC regime?


Well did WC every 3 days for 1 month and then went to weekly. This week I’m planing to do every 3 days again until it gets better, or more if necessary.


Zeus. said:


> There's no need to change the foam pads just give them a good clean, and clean them regularly.if you put new ones in they will have no bacteria on the so anti productive. Even using tap water striaght out of the tap is fine, bacteria are tougher than we think.


Hm...thought the bacteria would go away. But on Juwel I have 4 different foams - this is just the first so I guess I can pass on tap water 


Zeus. said:


> LC is best dosed just before lights on if you can.


Light goes on from 6pm and I only arrive at 7:30/8:30pm - will this be a problem? If so I’ll change it for later. My girlfriend is now working earlier and can’t apply LC before lights go on.


Zeus. said:


> Plants don't look too bad at all! How long have the amanos been in?


Have the Amanos for two weeks now. I will buy 4 more this Saturday. Wanted to buy before but couldn’t leave work on time..

So what about the blue/green spots I have on my rocks? Is that bad?


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## alto (24 May 2018)

Sirkavu said:


> water tube turned up so the surface can move


I would run this at nighttime only - I suspect flow within the tank is less than it could be: add some fish food etc to watch flow within the tank 

Otos are generally the most efficient diatom algae cleaners, so I'd look at adding a trio as well as increasing your Amano population - that's a lot of area for just 6 Amano's 
(recommendation as algae crew is rather more/10litres)

Those particular rocks are quite difficult to keep algae free, you need to manually brush the stone with your weekly water change - or attach mosses 

Whenever you have a surge of algae, general recommendation is increased maintenance - if you've little time, then invest in a comprehensive algae crew (assorted shrimp species, snails, Otos)

I'd also increase plant density - add more (cheap) fast growing stem plants as "Auxiliary Plants"

For rinsing that top foam, "back flow" tap water to remove the visible surface debris without pushing any smaller particles into the foam - with care, you can use the same foams for years (if clogged too densely, it can be impossible to recover flow)
Note you also want to remove that plant debris as soon as possible rather than allowing it to completely breakdown into the tank water column  (later when tank is well established I find this is much less of an issue)

If your tap water is treated with chloramine, then I would pretreat water used in rinsing filter media, or use tank water (from water change); this is also a good precaution if tap water is heavily chlorinated (my local supplier will often increase chlorine to upper allowable limits during summer etc, if I run the tap, I can smell chlorine from 6m away - I'm very close to a chlorine dosing station so when "extra" is dumped into the system, it's not pleasant)


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## Hades (24 May 2018)

Sirkavu said:


> I’ve been reading and I think it’s because when I added my Amanos they are all my alternathera leafs in 2 days



They really seem to love A. Reineckii...
I had some healthy A.R. mini before introducing the Amanos. They devoured the leaves in less then a week.

But it almost seemed like they had a greater plan, beyond the feeding frenzy. They never ate the top leaves or the stems. After 'trimming' all leaves (but the top ones) they collectively seemed to agree to let the plants bounce back for a few weeks. New growth was left untouched (i even suspect that they groomed the new leaves, fertilized the roots and cultivated the surrounding plants to ensure good lightconditions for their crops).
Just when the plants start to look like plants again (reasonable amount of leaves) they collectively decided to have a late night saladbar party and we were back to square one...
They did this for a few months until i got tired of the shaggy looks of agricultured A. reineckii and reclaimed their veggie garden by changing them to less tasty plants...

Also: it didn't seem to matter how much vegetables or greens i fed them: A.R. (mini) is just irresistible for them! (But the "lemon shrimp" that were in the tank first never touched the plants to my knowing...)



alto said:


> Otos are generally the most efficient diatom algae cleaners, so I'd look at adding a trio



I don't really agree with this advice actually.
-Three oto's is not enough for them to feel safe. Better to keep them in a larger group (starting from 6 minimum)
-Your tank is not ready for them imho. Not all oto's accept dry food (especially at first) and i don(t really see enough algae (or aufwuchs) for them. The little that is there will be gone quite fast and this might be starve them.
Better to introduce them in a tank that has been running for at least 6 months or so.
-Please don't forget that the (large) majority of oto's sold is wildcaught.
This has a big impact on the wild populations.
Plus for every fish that arrives in the LFS one or two fish died during transport. In the LFS you get a lot of mortality aswell since most shops don't have suitable tanks for them. Then they get sold and again: at first quite a lot die.
Sometimes because they arrive already weakened and starving, ending up in "young" tanks without enough food doesn't help as you can imagine...
A tank needs to mature to provide the conditions that they need and that is your responsability!

Knowing all this should determine your decision: whether to buy them and also when to buy them.
Don't buy them premature, don't buy them for the wrong reasons.
No fish should be bought for the wrong reasons ofcourse but in the case of oto's you have to be double aware.
So don't go and buy these fish purely to get rid of algae (especially) in new tanks and never ignore the truth about how populations decline to provide our tanks, think about the way these fish are transported, remember the mortality rate...
So in short: please note (and research) the needs these fish have and provide these before you add them..
It's possible to avoid/get rid of algae without them so this should not be the reason to buy them anyhow.
It's a classic and tragic example of how popularity can be the downfall for entire species.

Agreed: Refusing them is hard (i know cause i really love them but never kept them because of the above, not easy at times but managed without them until now).
But if you do really want to keep them you, at least, have the "duty" to do it the right way. So provide a good, solid chance from start by making the tank suitable.

So i insist once more:
don't buy them to get a new (or young) tank algae free or (wrong) reasons like that. If you want them you have to prepare your tank for them, and not the other way around...
Don't let them do your work! 

And @alto: i hope you catch my drift and don't take my words bad?!
No bad intentions anyhow. I just think these fish need and deserve some extra respect from us, aquarists. The are great, usefull fish so let us try to do some damage control.  It would help if everybody knows the story behind them before buying them. Would be nice if we can at least lower the "post-selling" mortality rate, by avoiding the advice to add them in unsuited, immature tanks.

So in a way i would like to ask you (in fact ask everybody) to stop the advice "adding oto's" as a solution in cases like the above. Plenty other options that don't involve a species "under extreme pressure", and they should not be added to tanks that are only 2 or three months anyway, for the sake of the species and for the sake of your wallet... Risks are greater then the possible profits...
Actually: i would never advice anyone buying them (wildcaught) but that's just me i guess...


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## Sirkavu (24 May 2018)

alto said:


> I would run this at nighttime only - I suspect flow within the tank is less than it could be: add some fish food etc to watch flow within the tank


Fish food - flakes they stay up and go around the surface. When I feed them with frozen food it just falls straight down. Should I turn it down or agains the glass?



alto said:


> Otos are generally the most efficient diatom algae cleaners, so I'd look at adding a trio as well as increasing your Amano population - that's a lot of area for just 6 Amano's
> (recommendation as algae crew is rather more/10litres)
> 
> Those particular rocks are quite difficult to keep algae free, you need to manually brush the stone with your weekly water change - or attach mosses


I will definitely buy 4 more amano and thought (now) on buying cherry shrimps as well, would this be ok? I didn't buy snails but from nothing they appeared in my tank. Still very small but from 1 now I count 10, again, very small ones. Thougth on throwing them away as I don't want them :/
 I did think about mosses few days ago. Will this remove the algae?



alto said:


> I'd also increase plant density - add more (cheap) fast growing stem plants as "Auxiliary Plants"


Yeah - already have plans for this week and will get:
-



alto said:


> For rinsing that top foam, "back flow" tap water to remove the visible surface debris without pushing any smaller particles into the foam - with care, you can use the same foams for years (if clogged too densely, it can be impossible to recover flow)
> Note you also want to remove that plant debris as soon as possible rather than allowing it to completely breakdown into the tank water column  (later when tank is well established I find this is much less of an issue)
> 
> If your tap water is treated with chloramine, then I would pretreat water used in rinsing filter media, or use tank water (from water change); this is also a good precaution if tap water is heavily chlorinated (my local supplier will often increase chlorine to upper allowable limits during summer etc, if I run the tap, I can smell chlorine from 6m away - I'm very close to a chlorine dosing station so when "extra" is dumped into the system, it's not pleasant)


Does this mean I can take the 50% water and clean my top foam? Or that I can rinse it on tap water and then add? I did remove with my hand all the plant debris the problem was that once I put the foam back my water got a bit dirty 

Is there anything I can do to prevent the algae? I will start doing WC every 3 days again for a month. Get more plants as mentioned above and get a total of 10 Amano and 10 RCS. What do you think?

Oh @Hades I did thought about them before but every fish I want I always search about them, had a very bad experience with PAH and learned that I should read about them and Otos are very sensitive fishes so I won't add them, unless I know my tank is safe (which I don't know yet bah  haha)


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## alto (25 May 2018)

Sirkavu said:


> Fish food - flakes they stay up and go around the surface. When I feed them with frozen food it just falls straight down. Should I turn it down or agains the glass?


Presoak some flake for maybe 60sec - depends on the type of flake food how water resistant it is - or just crumble before adding to the tank
You need to add enough so that you can see your water flow pattern
Then adjust the outlet direction to provide best circulation 
Do this just before water change so you can remove this food bomb

Just as with shrimp, different snails tend to be "better" at different cleaning - I prefer Nerite species as they seldom breed in freshwater, of these I like the "horned nerites" as they remain quite small 
The snails "spontaneously" appearing in your tank will easily overpopulate if enough extra food is about (I remove any snails I don't add deliberately)
Many fish will eat baby snails IF food is scarce (neons unlikely, mollies absolutely)

If you attach moss to your rocks, there will be no way to see the underlying algae 
Note attach moss very sparingly & allow it to grow in to cover the stone


Rinse the top foam to remove (visible) debris & internal debris (more dust like) - you can do this with running tap water (I'd only treat the upper foam this way) - or shake/squeeze in a bucket with old tank water or treated tap water 
I like to check foam residual gunk by then squeezing foam in a clean bucket of water - note you need a white bucket for best effect
If you use running tap water, it's easier to judge "clean" level (& I don't bother with the bucket test)

Not sure about cherry shrimp - they are much more sensitive to fish attention than Amano & you don't really have sufficient plant cover in your tank (cherry shrimp sold out of mixed fish tank will obviously be much more bold) - both neons & mollies are inquisitive)

Otos- use your own judgement, one local shop ships direct from SA, losses from the 1000 box are minimal (maybe 10-20 fish, note that commercial estimates on trade losses in fish is anywhere from 3-15% Many shops won't carry/order more sensitive species)
Most local shops seem to have decent supply of Otos & I see very few emaciated or dying Otos 
(The local fish wholesaler also looks after their Otos very well)
AKAIK all Otos are still wild caught - some of the SA suppliers are very considerate of wild caught fish
(Some "wild caught" SA fish are actually farmed on the river - much the same as with African Cichlids (Malawi, some Tanganyikans))
SA fish "catchers" often look after their local fish sources (it is their livelihood)

I suspect the main reason that Otos receive so much better care than previously is that they are no longer penny fish


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## Sirkavu (5 Jul 2018)

Hey all!!!

So sorry, been really sick and couldn't do anything. Luckily my partner has been looking after the tank 

Just got home few days ago and my tank is good, with some new fast growing plants. Yet, I know have the blue green algae as shown below.
Before the pictures this is my tank.
Light - runs for 5h
CO2 - Liquid, 5ml of Easycarbo (most of the time I dose with lights on)

I got 2 more mollies 1 month ago but, one of the mollies died a week ago - all the others seem great. One mollie is (I think) pregnant. I also have 12 Amano shrimps, instead of 6.
I bought a pleco - beautiful one - whose name i don't remember, but I will now this weekend once I go to the shop again hehe, I was thinking on buying a second one and just keep 2, what do you think?

here are the pictures. What should I do?




















Also, I was thinking on rearranging my tank, changing the plants around, getting new and throw some away. I feel I know a bit more and can take better care now.



alto said:


> Presoak some flake for maybe 60sec - depends on the type of flake food how water resistant it is - or just crumble before adding to the tank
> You need to add enough so that you can see your water flow pattern
> Then adjust the outlet direction to provide best circulation
> Do this just before water change so you can remove this food bomb


So, I did this, and the food just circled around the tank, not at the top but in the middle.

P.S.: My snails....jeez. Every 3/4 days I take around 20, all very small.
P.P.S.: I know I have to trim  Will do this Sunday.

Thank you all


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## Hades (6 Jul 2018)

alto said:


> losses from the 1000 box are minimal (maybe 10-20 fish,



Are you sure those numbers are right? I only read and hear different stories concerning otocinclus actually.
Here, in Belgium (and also in Holland) they have a different 'reputation'. It is fairly common here that they arrive in pretty bad shape in LFS (very skinny, malnourished and rather weak). Most shops fail in providing adequate tanks/food upon arrival so they go weaker every day.
Allegedly +/- 40% dies during transport, more die in the shop and finally many die shortly after introduction in our tanks.
For what i know, hear and read only 20-30% survives the first 6 months after being caught.  

So, it would be great to know that your numbers (10-20 on a 1.000!!?) are more accurate... Huge difference anyway!

The deathrate during transport and in the shops is out of our control but the fact remains that too many still die in our tanks.
Especially when introduced in imature tanks (sometimes as first fish in a new tank) that don't have enough algae to graze in.
Being wildcaught they tend to refuse flakes/most food at first, they don't recognize it as food.
At least that is what i read and hear a lot, i never had them myself.

Considering that they tend to arrive malnourished and skinny from the shop and combine this with the fact that they (initially at least) are used to/depend on algae to find food (so many of them have to learn to accept other food...).
It is quite widely accepted that they do better in mature, well established tanks afaik.

Anyhoo, that is why i feel it's our duty to at least do our absolute best to avoid oto's dying shortly after intro in our tanks.
One way to raise their chances is providing a fully matured tank and stable waterperimeters on arrival..
That's also why i don't think we should advise them as soon as the first single diatom appears and why i usually advise against them in new tanks.



alto said:


> Most local shops seem to have decent supply of Otos & I see very few emaciated or dying Otos
> (The local fish wholesaler also looks after their Otos very well)



Maybe it's different where you live but as said i read different things here: poor transport condition, weak on arrival in shops, poorly housed in shops and a lack of care in LFS (foodwise) and also lot's of deaths the first month(s) after purchase...

All of the above made me decide against them for my tanks, with regrets cause i love them actually...



alto said:


> I suspect the main reason that Otos receive so much better care than previously is that they are no longer penny fish



What do you mean 'penny fish'? As in: "cheap fish" or ...?
Never heard the expression so i am a little curious... 



Sirkavu said:


> My snails....jeez. Every 3/4 days I take around 20, all very small.



If they grow fast in numbers this might be a sign that you are slightly overfeeding? 
I never take snails out of my tanks but the population is more or less stable.
Anyway, i don't mind some snails providing they don't explode in numbers, quite usefull buggers i think. 




Sirkavu said:


> Light - runs for 5h



5 hours is pretty minimal, i wouldn't make that any shorter but maybe the intensity is too high (without co2 injection)?
Can you dim them actually?
If not, floating plants might be an option, if you like them ofc.

The tank looks quite nice nevertheless i'd say!


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## HiNtZ (23 Jul 2018)

The very first thing I would do personally is get rid of that decomposing organic material you see in the filter quick sharp - else you'll have a hard time rectifying your  problems.


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## Sirkavu (30 Jul 2018)

Sorry for not saying anything but the work gave me no time to come to the computer  haha

I can say that for now, the algae is more controlled - which is great and amazing. Another GREAT new is that my mollie had babies and I managed to save 2 babies hehehe they are now 2 weeks old and still on the baby "box".
Picture when I found them







Now the bad part is that I found some worms on my gravel...I never cleaned the bottom but I had to last weekend (only one side because I didn't had time to take the baby fishes away), and the dirt was.... - very dirty I can say.

Shall I vacuum the whole bottom?

See pictures of the worms below













Hades said:


> If they grow fast in numbers this might be a sign that you are slightly overfeeding?
> I never take snails out of my tanks but the population is more or less stable.
> Anyway, i don't mind some snails providing they don't explode in numbers, quite usefull buggers i think.



Yeah, I need to see methods to feed the fishes on the right way and right portions. This will help not overfeeding. 



Hades said:


> 5 hours is pretty minimal, i wouldn't make that any shorter but maybe the intensity is too high (without co2 injection)?
> Can you dim them actually?
> If not, floating plants might be an option, if you like them ofc.



Changed to 8h and I think this helped the plants to eat the nutrients before the algae.



Hades said:


> The tank looks quite nice nevertheless i'd say!


Thank you - very happy for that!


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## Zeus. (31 Jul 2018)

Tanks AS looks pretty clean to me can not see the need to VAC it. A few worms in the tank/substrate is no big deal.

Algea grows in tanks with nutrients in the parts per billion so there's always enough for them all they need is enough light either duration or intensity! Have both intensity and duration and you end up with bloom. 8hr is still a longish photoperiod unless the aglae is under control.
Many lakes are having algea issues in the UK what's the cause? Too sunny ie light intensity and duration, compounded by lack of rain ie WC


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