# Advice on substrate please



## MatTheFish (1 Sep 2014)

Hello,

I'm in the process of considering my substrate for when i start to keep a planted tank. (tank details in sig)

About 2 months ago I bought Dennerle Crystal quartz gravel Black gravel, it has no nutrient value (inert) or anything but cost me nearly £70 in total. I wish I did not bother as I am now wanting a planted tank with pressurized CO2, EI dosing etc.

I was thinking some possible options and would like some advice please.

*[ Option 1 ]
*
2 x 2.5l Tropica Plant Substrate (base layer) - Total £20

I was considering getting just a bottom base layer something like Tropica Plant substrate and cap it with my expensive Dennerle Crystal Quartz black. This seems the most affordable option as price for Tropical 2.5litre is £10 minus a few pence.

I'd get two bags which going by tropica recommendations and their chart on 1CM thickness this would be more than enough, maybe 1CM isn't thick enough though for plants to root in it sounds to thin to me?

It also means i keep my expensive nice looking gravel. How is the Tropica plant substrate in comparison to others? does it have lot's of nutrients etc plants need and does it last as want something that doesn't need to be replaced say after 12 months for example.

Apparently because of the grain size of Dennerle Crystal Quartz Black it should allow easy rooting of plants, is this true (it is very light stuff to) ? I would like to have a go at stem plants, delicate plants maybe carpeting type plants, heavy rooted plants, a mix variety, so want something that will allow easy rooting.

Another possible bonus is when uprooting/moving plants etc with a deep layer of gravel It should i guess keep dust etc to a minimum?

Not sure if Tropica is one of the better base layer substrates, if not any recommendations?

Also Dennerle says the following about it's gravel I bought 2 months back.


> *Crystal Quartz Gravel Characteristics At A Glance:*
> Hardener-free
> CO2-proof
> Light-resistant
> ...



*[ Option 2 ]
*
2 x 9l/20lb (may need 3 not sure) Caribsea Eco Complete - Total £50.98 (2 bags) | £76.47 (3 bags)

Eco Complete (maybe the fine version) for delicate roots although i do want to plant a variety of plants not just delicate root plants. Doesn't need capping, expensive, from what I read doesn't have allot of nutrients in it but high in CEC i think, means loosing my Dennerle unless i cap the eco complete with the dennerle, not sure if my dennerle gravel will stay on top though and if it's a good idea? my Dennerle is very light (some will float on water it's that light until you swish it under the water and then it sinks no problems) and has a 1-2mm grain size which suppose to be good for plants to root in, I don't know though if it is as no plants as of yet.

*[ Option 3 ]*

2 x 9l (may need 3 not sure) ADA Aquasoil Amazonia

Used by the best aquascapers, think it speaks for itself as being the best. Would loose my Dennerle for sure on this one as just wouldn't be rite having Dennerle in with Aquasoil plus the Dennerle would probably fall to bottom over time. So downfall loosing my expensive gravel. Has allot of benefits to my understanding. Worst thing about this is not only price but I have plenty of fish that I have nowhere to put them for a few weeks whilst the Aquasoil finished leaching the ammonia, my external filter has been up and running for just over 12 months and has always been stable not sure if it would be able to deal with the ammonia leaching from substrate aswell as fish bioload. I do weekly maintenance and water changes of 25% that will increase to 50% when CO2/EI dosing is added, I do use seachem prime however and daily water changes should make this not be a problem although I don't know exactly how much ammonia it does release so a risk i'm not sure i want to take as i love my fish.

Something I'm confused with, looking at thegreenmachine website there's two types of Amazonia.

1) ADA Aqua Soil Amazonia (9 Litre) - Total £70 (2 bags) | Total £105 (3 bags)
2) ADA Aqua Soil Powder Amazonia (9 Litre) - Total 100 (2 bags) | Total £150 (3 bags)

The first one is the cheapest at £34.99 each the second one is worse at £49.99 each. On searching these forums it seems one of these cause allot of problems like dusty/cloudy water etc which i don't want for sure, which one is it? the first one the picture for that product DOES NOT have the word 'New' above the text 'Amazonia'. The second one DOES have the word 'New' above the text Amazonia. really not sure which one is best, don't want the one with dusting/clouding want to keep that to minimum, don't want it going like mush either, not sure why the second one says powder as close up images of it suggests it isn't a powder, i don't want a powered fine substrate that will cause a mess just by touching it, doing minor maintenance, my external filter likely wouldn't appreciate it on a regular bases either.

Unless there's something else that is just as good please recommend. Sorry for all the questions just want some advice in helping me decide.

As I've not had a planted tank before and being new to it all i was thinking a good nutrient substrate would hopefully help me whilst I get used to it all and learn as i go.

No doubt the ADA is probably the best but the cost of 2/3 bags and loosing my expensive gravel  which cost around £70 this would be very costly on that front going with ADA Aquasoil (Amazonia). I will if needed remove and not use my Dennerle regardless of susbtrate is advised.

Many thanks
Mathew


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## Julian (1 Sep 2014)

Option 4. Use whatever substrate you want and dose EI.


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## MatTheFish (1 Sep 2014)

Hi,

I'm after a bit more than that tbh in terms of advice, I still want a good nutrient substrate ideal for planting delicate plants as well as a mixed variety of plants, don't want it to go to mush, don't produce to much dust/clouding and something that i don't have to replace for example in 12 months. After ideas, suggestions, recommendations.

Thanks for replying though!


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## Julian (1 Sep 2014)

I've used soil, sand and stone. It makes no difference (in my experience). Some plants are more optimal in certain substrates than others obviously, but they all work.


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## MatTheFish (1 Sep 2014)

Thanks I just have beeing reading the substrate guide from here on ukaps http://www.ukaps.org/index.php?page=guide-to-substrates

I won't bother with Tropica and then capped with my Dennerle, article suggests these bottom base layers aren't as nutrient rich as complete layers plus it seems it can get very messy/cloudy with Tropica, not ideal for myself.

ADA Aquasoil well i ain't going with it, i've decided, although i'm happy to loose my Dennerle for a complete substrate i don't want to pay so much, i ain't no pro and don't want to pay a pro price for just substrate specially as i have to buy the CO2 system, plants, EI dosing starter kit etc.

I keep leaning towards the eco complete don't know why, i guess i could get the coarse eco complete and if i wanted to, cap with my dennerle, i guess my dennerle would stay above the eco complete coarse? or go with eco complete fine but being fine my dennerle probably sink in it, i don't know as not seen it to sample what it looks like, the fine seems like be better for delicate plants but may not be good for placing any wood/rock on an angle.

hmmm never new picking a substrate would be so difficult, i just can't decide :/

Can i ask what plant substrate have you used and you like ?

Thanks
Mathew


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## ceg4048 (1 Sep 2014)

MatTheFish said:


> I keep leaning towards the eco complete


Which will be a costly mistake since it will not be any better than the quartz gravel you are using now.
Please pay attention to Julian's advice in post #4 above. What more information do you need? It doesn't matter what substrate you use if you are dosing EI. Substrate will not be your problem. Getting good CO2 will be your problem. Substrate choice will not be very relevant if you adhere to the dosing principles of EI..

You're advised to stop wasting energy fretting over substrate and to simply get on with other priorities.

Cheers,


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## MatTheFish (1 Sep 2014)

Ok thanks for your reply.

well for the EI dosing I was going to get the starter kit from AquariumPlantFood and follow their dosing instructions.

It's good to hear about the substrate, shocked tbh that as long as i'm EI dosing plenty with plenty of CO2, flow distrubtion and lighting that substrate won't make a difference.

Can i ask:

1) If i'm EI dosing would i still need to add at least root tabs to the dennerle crystal quartz or will the EI dosing kit i mentioned supply everything my plants would need in terms of nutrients?

2) my pH as it stands as of now in tank is 7.6-7.8, out of tap it's 8.2 but i leave it stand for 24 hours prior to use. Is is true if your in a hard water area you should not add Magnesium Sulphate ? should i ignore that and add it anyway as per instructions from APF.

3) My dennerle crystal quartz is 1-2mm in size, rounded and very light weight, based on the size and being light weight will it be good at keeping plants rooted? it's the sort of gravel that if you swish your syphon above it without mush movement it moves easily as want to try a variety of plants, such as stem, carpet aswell as heavily rooted plants.

Many thanks for the help, has been much apprecaited 

Mathew


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## Henry (1 Sep 2014)

1) No, but it will provide "back-up" for your EI dosing regimen.
2) Dose anyway. Hardness doesn't necessarily indicate the presence of Magnesium, which your plants need.
3) 1-2mm in size is fine for any plant you want to grow. The weight of the gravel won't matter once the plants start to root.


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## ceg4048 (1 Sep 2014)

Further to Henry's excellent response, you do not "need" root tabs - AND they are expensive, however, if you already have them then they can be used. Another option is to use slow release fertilizer such as Osmocoat or Miracle Grow Slow Release under the quartz. You can even add potting soil to the bottom (although that would be more work). Much more bang for buck are the cheap ways.

Aquatic plants really do not care whether nutrition is in the water column or in the sediment. Ideally, nutrients should be in both locations so that the plant can select an alternate location if the primary location runs low. Over time, organic waste build up in the substrate and this is where bacteria and nutrients will accumulate. The "backup" that Henry mentions is that sometimes we forget to dose the water column, or are out of town, or whatever. Having a nutritious substrate allows you to not worry too much and it gives you that little bit more margin of error.

In any case this is not something to obsess over. There are plenty of ways to get into trouble with a planted tank. Incorrect substrate choice is NOT one of the ways. More information in the post http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/flora-max-v-eco-complete.13801/#post-143731

Cheers,


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## MatTheFish (1 Sep 2014)

Thank you your responses have helped allot.

Yeah i have been reading the forum like no tomorrow all the tutorials and that link you posted to. Infact i have red allot of what you have written yourelf ceg, i think i will save my money and just not put any plant substrate in.

In fact from reading so far i have saved a few hundred literally just for reading through this forum!

1) I was going to buy another light unit, have learned what i got should be fine (details in sig) that's about £100 saved.

2) I have two Juwel T5 High Light tubes ( 2 x 28w Day 590mm) which came with tank as bought it brand new few months ago from LFS, was going to replace the front one with a Arcadia J5 28w Plant Pro costs around £25, seems that i will be wasting my money if i did that, i do have a Juwel Colour i bought weeks back but wasn't sure on the pink hue so left in box lol, i know the Plant Pro will probably be pinkish like the Juwel Colour, but again seems like just best to stick to my Juwel Day bulbs, i like the look of them as shows everything nicely. So another saving of £25

3) Substrate, after the advice seems hard to grasp i could plant a carpet plant or any plant for that matter in inert gravel until i see results i will struggle to believe it lol but not going to waste money either as i will be using pressurised co2 and EI dosing from all the information and advice i have been reading. Therefore another saving of around £50-£70. Besides i rather believe yourself than something manufacturer trying to take my money and laughing to the bank with my cash!

4) I not bought any root tabs so another saving of around £10

Probably more that i can't think of on top of my head but not bad for some FREE reading and good advice 

Not heard of Osmocat or Miracle Grow Slow Release, i guess the are safe for use in aquariums, i'm no pro so which should i start with EI starter kit or osmocat or Miracle Grow Slow Release ? not bothered about price on this as with inert substrate i want the best ferts for water column dosing but nothing complicated, i want to get rid of all the technical bull i have been given and keep things simple as possible, hence why i have been reading this forum like no tomorrow lol. With the EI kit from aquariumplantfood they provde clear instructions and dosing instructions perl ml so seems easiest, measuring etc is simple so no problems there.

EDIT: I just searched for Osmocat and Miracle Grow Slow Release and not sure im viewing the write products ceg, Can you give links please so i can take a loot at them and reasearch them futher please? are they water column fertilisers or something i can add below my gravel ?

Thanks!


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## Chris Jackson (1 Sep 2014)

Hi,

For what it is worth I have a 400 litre tank that has been running happily for 12 years on a mix of onyx sand and eco complete. Before that I had great success with Dennerle Deponit mix under a similar black gravel to the one you mention running for 8 years or so and everything grew very well. I think it is very easy to get overly caught up in all minutiae of different products when actually they all work and there is no one perfect answer. Manufacturers are trying to sell more product because that is how they prosper, but there is lots of stuff we don't actually need...I still have a part used jar of root balls that must be 17 years old!

Unless you're pursuing notoriously hard plants things pretty much just want to grow and will grow if left in a stable environment, choose lights you like the colour output of and only change things gradually.

In all the years that I've been running planted tanks I've found that troubles only occur when you: 1. Fiddle about changing things too much  2. Are too impatient(bit like #1) 3. Ignore your better judgement 4. Fiddle about changing things too much.

Enjoy!


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## Henry (1 Sep 2014)

MatTheFish said:


> which should i start with EI starter kit or osmocat or Miracle Grow Slow Release ?



The osmocote/Miracle Gro is there to supplement the EI dosing. You can add a sprinkle of them to the bottom of the tank before the substrate goes in, and they will provide nutrients much in the same way that other aquarium specific base layers would. Relying on these alone in a CO2 injected tank is not recommended. They are slow release fertilisers intended for terrestrial plants and, as such, should be used sparingly.

http://www.diy.com/rooms/miracle-gro-all-purpose-granular-universal-plant-feed/236609_BQ.prd

That's the stuff I've used in the past.


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## MatTheFish (1 Sep 2014)

sorry i meant use it underneath gravel in addition to EI, my mistake.

That link is invalid so can't check it to ensure i'm looking at correct one.

Is this the one ? http://www.amazon.co.uk/Miracle-Gro-Continuous-Release-Purpose-Shaker/dp/B000TAUI1M

Thank you!


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## Henry (1 Sep 2014)

Yup, that's the stuff. They sell it at B&Q for a fiver if you're in a hurry to get it.


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## MatTheFish (1 Sep 2014)

Cheers mate much appreciated, no rush as got to buy my co2 system etc yet, you say use sparingly, you mean just a few balls sprinkled underneath gravel? don't want to toxicate my tank lol, you have a pic as an example perhaps?

Many thanks everyone really has been brilliant reading these forums, so much information and advice, plus the fact from the advice i have saved a few hundred no doubt Can't argue with that.

Cheers!


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## MatTheFish (1 Sep 2014)

Just checked and bit wary of both products mentioned going underneath gravel as they release ammonia? why is this? I did refer further and see i could if i wanted to instead of removing my gravel is buy cellulose capsules and add both products mentioned above and then use them as root tabs but seeing topics on the web about allot of ammonia release from both products.

Is there something like that which is more aquarium safe, doesn't release ammonia or anything else that maybe dangerous? i don't mind paying for something that will put my mind at rest specially as my tank is fully stocked.

Thanks!


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## Henry (1 Sep 2014)

If you're wanting to go down the safe route, buy some Tropica, Tetra Plant Complete, or any other supplementary base layer specifically designed for use in the planted aquarium. Failing that, buy some Aqua Soil (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/1512...3=1&ff11=ICEP3.0.0-L&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=108), or any other aquatic compost, and put a thin layer beneath your regular substrate. 

If you keep up with your EI dosing, you shouldn't really need anything other than plain gravel. Any of the above will act as a safety net should you miss a day or two.


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## MatTheFish (1 Sep 2014)

Thank you for clearing that up, Great advice 

Many thanks everyone!


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## Henry (1 Sep 2014)

On second thoughts, save the £20 you'd be spending on base layers and buy something to supplement your filter. The Ecco Pro 300 does not have a high enough flow rate for your tank.


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## MatTheFish (2 Sep 2014)

I decided i won't use a base layer if anything i'd just buy some root tabs if needed down the line.

The filter i bought brand new just over a year ago, i couldn't afford buying the pressurised co2 system which i don't have yet and a new filter on top, as i got to buy plants etc aswell, Filters i like to stick to good brands and when i was browsing filters a few weeks back the cost to get a good brand would be around £300-£350. My tank is only 71CM in length, i use a spray bar at back wall (skimming the water to front of tank) it throws out the water very well but i think my fish will not cope with a higher flow as they tend to like slow moving water. Plus my Hydor ETH 200W is 12/16 and my ecco pro tubing is, if i upgrade filter they all have bigger tubing than i have, that means my Hydor external filter won't fit as it will be smaller size (12/16), plus i not long ago bought the Eheim installation set 1 & 2 and would have to buy the bigger fitting on that to.

That Original AquaSoil you kindly provided link for, does it leach ammonia? i guess it's like compost you buy for your garden from garden centres? does it cloud dirty the water, seems very cheap.

Thanks!


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## Henry (2 Sep 2014)

Don't bother with another filter if you can't afford one, buy a powerhead or similar to supplement the flow.

Original Aquasoil won't leach ammonia and won't cloud the water unless it is disturbed. If you put a proportionally small amount on the bottom of your substrate, you shouldn't have any problems with it finding it's way to the surface.


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## MatTheFish (2 Sep 2014)

Cheers for replying mate.

Yeah would make sense mate for me as i got loads to buy lol, my only concern is will my fish tolerate and find a powerhead or circulation pump to much.

Reason I ask is last year when I had a Lido 120 before upgrading to the Lido 200 I bought a "Hydor Koralia Nano 1600 Circulation and Wave Pump". When I had it on the fish seemed to be struggling a bit with the flow. When i asked my LFS who is trusted by many people and myself to some extent, i never trust them fully, they said it is the worst thing i could do to add one to my tank for my fish as they prefer slower moving water, fair enough but at the same time i think the rivers they come from surely must be faster flowing than the water in my tank lol. Basically they recommended for me to not use it and said they are mainly used in marine/reef as they need a high flow which makes sense. Since then i not used one and in fact sent it back at the time as was worried my fish might get stressful and become ill because of stress. The tank was obviously a bit smaller as it was a 120l not 200l like i have now, i notice though they do a Hydor Koralia Nano 900 which won't be so harsh but not sure if it would be enough for the CO2 to be distributed.

I took the Juwel Interal Filter out of my tank when i got it and have the powerhead pump from that which is still in box, it also has the little nozzle to direct flow wherever, not sure if i could use that maybe although i can't alter speed of flow or anything so probably easier to buy something.

My fish stock:

5 x Kuhli loach
6 x Corydoras trilineatus (false julii)
2 x L201 Pleco (Hypancistrus sp - Orinoco Angel Pleco)
3 x Otocinclus
8 x Cardinal Tetra
8 x Rummy Nose Tetra
1 x German Blue Ram
5 x Bleeding Heart Tetra
6 x Dwarf Neon Rainbowfish
2 x Platinum Blue Angelfish

Thanks!


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## John P Coates (3 Sep 2014)

Henry said:


> If you're wanting to go down the safe route, buy some Tropica, Tetra Plant Complete, or any other supplementary base layer specifically designed for use in the planted aquarium.


Hi Henry,

Tetra Plant Complete seems a waste of money. It doesn't appear to have been of any benefit whatsoever in my aquarium. And I don't care too much for Tetra's lack of information about it. I bought it on the strength of George Farmer's review here:

http://www.ukaps.org/index.php?page=guide-to-substrates

Does anyone have a detailed analysis of its composition and any nutrients that it provides?

JPC


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## MatTheFish (3 Sep 2014)

John P Coates said:


> Hi Henry,
> 
> Tetra Plant Complete seems a waste of money. It doesn't appear to have been of any benefit whatsoever in my aquarium. And I don't care too much for Tetra's lack of information about it. I bought it on the strength of George Farmer's review here:
> 
> ...




Hi,

JPC glad you posted about it, i was considering getting it for under my gravel as it's cheap and on Amazon UK the overall review is 5*. Not good enough though is it, regardless of amount one spends they should not market products and exaggerate about it, we live in such a false economy it's a shame.


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## Henry (3 Sep 2014)

The Tetra Plant substrate is likely composed of a high CEC substance. In all likelihood, it's just dried out compost with a few other things thrown in.

ADA Amazonia, and all of everyone's favourite substrates, are just processed soil, albeit with various nutrients and minerals. Go out and buy the Original Aquasoil, dose EI, and watch your plants flourish.


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## MatTheFish (3 Sep 2014)

Henry said:


> The Tetra Plant substrate is likely composed of a high CEC substance. In all likelihood, it's just dried out compost with a few other things thrown in.
> 
> ADA Amazonia, and all of everyone's favourite substrates, are just processed soil, albeit with various nutrients and minerals. Go out and buy the Original Aquasoil, dose EI, and watch your plants flourish.




Think I will mate, fed up of trying to decide, worried about ammonia potentially leaching out or when i want to move things and causes a spike something and possibly messy, i know it will be capped with my gravel but still concerns me tbf.

Cheers


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## Henry (3 Sep 2014)

Then stick with just the gravel you have. If you're dosing EI, stop over-thinking the substrate, and concentrate on lighting, CO2, and flow.


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## John P Coates (3 Sep 2014)

MatTheFish said:


> Think I will mate, fed up of trying to decide, worried about ammonia potentially leaching out or when i want to move things and causes a spike something and possibly messy, i know it will be capped with my gravel but still concerns me tbf.


Hi,

Tetra 'Complete' initially leached ammonia for a couple of weeks in my setup but, as soon as the nitrifying bacteria were established, they put an end to that!

JPC


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