# eco complete"



## jonny.j

can I ask you guys whot eco complete is like!  money well spent as around £25 a 9kg bag" 
And how deep would be best for my plants?  also can carpet plants take root in eco as iv read its not as good as finer grade substrates!


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## darren636

Its lava rock.
Doesn't have nutrients.
I've used it and consider it to be snake oil.

Florabase beats it - hands down.


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## jonny.j

darren636 said:


> Its lava rock.
> Doesn't have nutrients.
> I've used it and consider it to be snake oil.
> 
> Florabase beats it - hands down.


 Thort it came with all the nutrients/bacteria in water in sealed bag? so whot was the main problems you found with eco buddy?

is Florabase a sand based substrate? who makes florabase!


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## darren636

Eco complete does not have nitrogen, potassium or phosphorus - NPK.

The 3 most important nutrients to green plants.

Its porous, can hold nutrients and aid root growth , but you'll need to use ferts immediately- unlike flora base, which gives astonishing growth , combined with the same benefits as eco complete- porous, high cec, etc.

You may be able to buy plain crushed lava rock for a fraction of the price of eco complete.

Eco complete is fine for planting, it looks OK,  easy to root into, easy to clean .
But it has no  macro nutrients.

Flora base is clay, and is made by Colombo.


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## alto

If you do a search you'll find lots of comments on Eco Complete ... & some slagging ... not sure how accurate as Carib Sea does provide a thorough analysis on the bag label ...
another irony is comparing EC to Aqua-soils & then complaining that water column fertilizers are still required (with EC)  
 -  I don't know any users of Aqua-soil that don't also expect to water column fertilize 

Unlike the soil substrates, EC will last through many aquascapes & years of use with minimal texture change, if you have fish that like to dig or substrate "swim" (some loaches & the currently popular _Stiphodon_ gobies) I prefer EC over other sharper edged substrates (just sift through various substrates with your hands).
It's popular locally so I know many people that have used it & seem pleased with it's claims of "biologically" active - I've only set up EC tanks with cycled filter media so no comment on this aspect ... it doesn't smell like the dry gravels/sands etc so something happens during the processing. 
Depending on transport/local storage it may be more or less "dusty" - although these fines settle fairly quickly, they'll reappear if major aquascaping is done so you may want to rinse before tank use if this has occurred (except of course, one of the nice aspects of EC is NOT having to prewash etc).

I've mostly used EC with a base layer of Tropica Growth Substrate (or similar in the past) - unlike sand or most inert gravels, EC has a strong "exchange capacity" ie it will bind various compounds from water column & then release to plant roots, Seachem uses this same approach in their planted tank substrates.

Whether it's a worthwhile investment depends on local alternatives - "playsand" (not pretty, very dusty) used to be the cheap alternative substrate for aquaria but it's now only available (locally) with "antifungal/antibacterial" additives ... back to aquarium branded substrates & I can purchase EC for much the same cost.


Carib Sea is one of the most consumer friendly companies in the trade, you might contact them for information  

Depending on types of plants, substrate depth of 5-10 cm is usually recommended; if you want increased depth perception through sloping of the substrate, then 5 - 15 cm variation is more pleasing.
For a large tank, shop around & see if you can get a volume discount.
If you look in the journals, there are some tanks done with very deep substrate gradients & some ideas for 'filler" substrates done up in stocking bags etc, also layering of the products such as Tropica's GS

Often in larger tanks, there are significant unplanted sand & rock areas, & plant substrate is only used in specific areas.





darren636 said:


> You may be able to buy plain crushed lava rock for a fraction of the price of eco complete.


only version of this locally available was rather large particle (think _large_ pebbles) & very sharp edged ... presently it would be a special order & not all that cheap either with shipping costs


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## jonny.j

Thanks for info alto"  so its better to use a clay base substrate under the eco! iv just looked at tropica plant growth" sounds good but not cheep at around £13 for 2.5ltr to  Flora-Base wich is £22 for 10ltr"  says put around 1cm down for base! my tanks 7/2/2 so probley looking at 12ltr needed"  
Also  looked at seachem fluorite black"  around same price as eco-complete"  but says its a clay based substrate and best used alone!  Have you tried seachem buddy?

that's a good idea not to use more expensive planting substrate if not planting all of a big tank"  probley just back and sides on my tank as keeping big fish that need swimming space"


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## alto

I've not used Flourite "Black" but have used the "Flourite" & "Red" & "Dark" versions, in comparison to EC, particle range is broader, also larger particles on average (check with Seachem on particle size range for the 'Black") - I have very soft (read empty of nutrients) water so I prefer planted tanks done with nutrient rich layers such as Tropica GS (less dependence on water column fertilization).
Flourite tends to be much "dustier" than EC re it is clay based; again depending on shipping & storage, bags may be more/less dusty.
It's also sharper edged than EC.


I believe the Flora-Base is a Colombo product (not available locally) - look at some of the George Farmer & Mark Evans journals for very nice results with Colombo product lines.

Be aware that big fish tend to be hard on plants, not just tasting but physical damage re bruising of leaves - look for plants that are fast growing (fast recovery ) & tougher leaf structure - have plants well established (deeply rooted & growing submerse) before adding fish into the 'scape


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## darren636

When flooded, eco complete releases zero ammonia- it has no nitrogen source- no food for plants.

When you set up a tank with flora base, or its rivals, you get a big ammonia spike- more than enough to kill fish- because its loaded with nitrogen.


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## jonny.j

darren636 said:


> When flooded, eco complete releases zero ammonia- it has no nitrogen source- no food for plants.
> 
> When you set up a tank with flora base, or its rivals, you get a big ammonia spike- more than enough to kill fish- because its loaded with nitrogen.


That's not good then mate! cannot risk my fish as not cheep and not find again this size!   So how do people get on with ammonia spikes? is this only on new tank setups you get ammonia spikes until systems mature and stable?  not to bad if you only have 90p tetras !


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## alto

If you look at the water change schedules on ADA soil (releases ammonia - sometimes LOTS of ammonia), 50% (or more) daily for the first 2 weeks (or so), then every other day for another week or 2, then twice weekly etc & eventually weekly ... but still large weekly water changes which act as a "reset" for the tank
Many shops will suggest not adding fish until plants are established & ammonia/nitrite is absent ... I suspect that initial ammonia spike is an artefact of manufacture process, once that initial ammonia "spike" is gone, the soil seems to act much like any other aquarium soil. 

Tropica went a different route, there is minimal (if any) ammonia release with their GS & Aquarium Soil - still seems to grow plants just as well as ADA system 

I don't know about the Colombo Soils - George Farmer has been running some recent aquascapes with their system, he may mention this aspect in his journals


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## darren636

jonny.j said:


> That's not good then mate! cannot risk my fish as not cheep and not find again this size!   So how do people get on with ammonia spikes? is this only on new tank setups you get ammonia spikes until systems mature and stable?  not to bad if you only have 90p tetras !


 

You can set up the tank and use the ammonia to cycle the filter or soak the substrate in a bucket for a week and change the water everyday


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## jonny.j

Can set tank up" and leave running for 2-3 weeks before adding fish if better! don't really wonna put fish through eney stress of bad water"


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## EnderUK

I can think of better things to spend 25 quid on.
£4 on 20l bag of sand or tesco cat litter
£8 1kg of kno3
£5 500g of mono po
£5 500g of traces
£5 1kg of mgso4

Winner


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## alto

EnderUK said:


> £4 on 20l bag of sand or tesco cat litter


got any leads on dark substrates/sand for that sort of price?

I don't think I'd do cat litter in a 7' tank with b.i.g fish 

Given the size of the tank & fish & hassle of any significant re-scapes, it may be worthwhile picking up some "test" bags of various substrates - unless you see them under similar tank & lighting conditions, dry substrates can be rather misleading - I'd forgotten about the big fish, I'd not use any of the aquarium soils, instead stick with denser substrates such as sand, fine gravel, EC, Flourite etc
Look at the many Tropica videos of planted tanks set up with Growth Substrate (or similar) & then topped with fine gravel (again avoiding the light sands that easily swirl up)

This tank is only 200 L but is a nice example of fine gravel substrate with plants grown on hardscape - which may be a nice convenience.


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## EnderUK

alto said:


> got any leads on dark substrates/sand for that sort of price?
> .



Meh black substrate, but if you want it you can use shot blast grit, needs some washing but over double the amount 25kg for £25 and probably even cheaper in bulk..


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## alto

If this is the same sort of stuff that is available locally, be aware of composition - & likely contaminants - depending on sourcing. 

You might look for pool & landscape products such as SpectraQuartz


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## jonny.j

would a base of Tropica plant growth and a black inert gravel around 2-2 half inch  work as good as a full depth eco-complete? only ask as would be a lot cheeper for 7ft/2/2 tank"


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## darren636

jonny.j said:


> would a base of Tropica plant growth and a black inert gravel around 2-2 half inch  work as good as a full depth eco-complete? only ask as would be a lot cheeper for 7ft/2/2 tank"


Yes.


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## Antoni

Hi, 

If the price is the main factor, go for Tropica growth substrate capped with gravel. Will work fine. Good water colomn fertilising and plants will trive. If you can spend the extra cash, go for Tropica soil, Colombo or Amazonia. Much easier to use, results are great, looks very good too. Have all the nutrients needed (you still to add ferts through the water column) has buffering capacity, high CEC and big surface for bacteria to inhabit.

Will need to do water changes at the beginning, but the plants will start to grow much faster and healthier.


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## jonny.j

Antoni said:


> Hi,
> 
> If the price is the main factor, go for Tropica growth substrate capped with gravel. Will work fine. Good water colomn fertilising and plants will trive. If you can spend the extra cash, go for Tropica soil, Colombo or Amazonia. Much easier to use, results are great, looks very good too. Have all the nutrients needed (you still to add ferts through the water column) has buffering capacity, high CEC and big surface for bacteria to inhabit.
> 
> Will need to do water changes at the beginning, but the plants will start to grow much faster and healthier.


Thanks for reply"  iv looked at using tropica soil on top of tropica growth but I was thinking my bigger fish may blow this everywhere when fighting/chaseing each other!  maybe micro gravel 2-3 mm will be better or would 0.4-1mm black unipac sand be ok??   will there be enough nutrients as im going to start with around 90 plants"   
Also have read ada Amazonia  gives off  ammonia spikes!


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## darren636

Any mineralised clay/ soil will give off ammonia.
Unless stated otherwise.


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## Antoni

jonny.j said:


> Thanks for reply"  iv looked at using tropica soil on top of tropica growth but I was thinking my bigger fish may blow this everywhere when fighting/chaseing each other!  maybe micro gravel 2-3 mm will be better or would 0.4-1mm black unipac sand be ok??   will there be enough nutrients as im going to start with around 90 plants"
> Also have read ada Amazonia  gives off  ammonia spikes!


You are welcome!
You don't need Tropica growth substrate under Tropica soil. Tropica soil has everything needed in, so you use it on its own.
Not sure what fish you have, but if they are bottom dwellers and there is a chance to disrupt the substrate, then use gravel size 2-5mm. Don't use sand, as there will be no circulation in it and it will become anaerobic.
Amazonia has an Amonia spike, but that is easily managed by doing regular water changes. Or alternatively use Tropica soil. There is far less ammonia leach with it.


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## jonny.j

Antoni said:


> You are welcome!
> You don't need Tropica growth substrate under Tropica soil. Tropica soil has everything needed in, so you use it on its own.
> Not sure what fish you have, but if they are bottom dwellers and there is a chance to disrupt the substrate, then use gravel size 2-5mm. Don't use sand, as there will be no circulation in it and it will become anaerobic.
> Amazonia has an Amonia spike, but that is easily managed by doing regular water changes. Or alternatively use Tropica soil. There is far less ammonia leach with it.


iv just paid for 10 bags of eco complete as did them for £21 a bag instead of £25  so hope the eco will be ok!   would you still put a base layer of Tropica growth under the eco?  or just use all eco ?


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## darren636

jonny.j said:


> iv just paid for 10 bags of eco complete as did them for £21 a bag instead of £25  so hope the eco will be ok!   would you still put a base layer of Tropica growth under the eco?  or just use all eco ?




Just dose ferts into the water column from day 1


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## alto

jonny.j said:


> would you still put a base layer of Tropica growth under the eco?


Yes!!!


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## jonny.j

Thanks for your help guys!  in spending my money eneyways


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## alto

This is a massive tank with big fish - set It up from the beginning in a way that you like ... it's way too much work to switch out substrates later on


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