# how many bubbles?



## DeiJas (20 Nov 2018)

Hello,

I've just received my pressurized co2 set yesterday. Never tried it before.
My aquarium is 162L and I've kept 1 bps yesterday, increased it to 2 bps today, but drop checker is still not moving out of the blue at all.
Is that normal for a fresh aquarium and co2 system, should I just keep increasing bps until checker eventually becomes green?

co2 13:00 - 21:00
lights 14:00 - 22:00

ph at 17:00 was 6.6 and kh 3.


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## Edvet (20 Nov 2018)

Have you got fish: if not: increase bps in large steps.
If yes: increase bps in small steps.
Each tank is different. Remember with CO2 we advise: large filter turnover aka lots of flow.
 Pics of the tank and situation, method of diffusion, all hepl with diagnosing troubles.


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## foxfish (20 Nov 2018)

Yes keep at it, expect to go up to anywhere between 3-10 bps.
If you have fish then you are going the right way, if you don’t have fish or shrimp then crank it up to 6-7 bps.


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## DeiJas (20 Nov 2018)

Haven't got a single fish. Several shrimps decided to join the party, since they were living in a filter. (Canister filter stolen from old aquarium)
Filter is 1000 l/h.
Diffusion method is simple diffuser in a corner, that's releasing very fine bubbles that barely touch the surface.
Picture attached.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (20 Nov 2018)

What I've started doing with mine is placing the bazooka atomiser under the filter intake. They cling to the sponge and fully dissolve, some undoubtedly get sucked in but it hasn't been a problem.


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## DeiJas (20 Nov 2018)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> What I've started doing with mine is placing the bazooka atomiser under the filter intake. They cling to the sponge and fully dissolve, some undoubtedly get sucked in but it hasn't been a problem.


I wonder if your filter bacteria are happy about that


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## AverageWhiteBloke (20 Nov 2018)

My understanding is the bacteria aren't affected by the co2. Some people inject directly I to the inlet. 

Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


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## AverageWhiteBloke (20 Nov 2018)

I think the omly issue is co2 can make plastic brittle so may damage the filter or seals and can cause the filter to "burp" I don't inject a lot so don't suffer from the burping. As for damaging the filter only time will tell I guess.

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## DeiJas (20 Nov 2018)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> I think the omly issue is co2 can make plastic brittle so may damage the filter or seals and can cause the filter to "burp" I don't inject a lot so don't suffer from the burping. As for damaging the filter only time will tell I guess.
> 
> Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


Let us know of your experiences down the road... maybe it'll keep working just fine 10 more years, who knows.


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## john dory (20 Nov 2018)

I use my filter as a reactor also.
Approx 1.5 bps on my 150 litre..keeps everything hunky(john)dory.
Get about 6 burps per day.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (21 Nov 2018)

DeiJas said:


> Let us know of your experiences down the road... maybe it'll keep working just fine 10 more years, who knows.



The filter I use is a Tetra canister I got for free off someone who was shutting down and giving up, nothing lost I guess. I've done this for about two years and had no issues, only thing that did happen was the plastic impeller part came away from the magnet at one point and started rattling but I just super glued it back. Not sure how old the filter was when I got it so that could just have been general wear and tear. If I'd bought a a balls out top of the range new filter I probably wouldn't take a gamble on it.



john dory said:


> Approx 1.5 bps on my 150 litre..keeps everything hunky(john)dory.
> Get about 6 burps per day.



I use a bazooka atomiser so the bubbles are pretty small, the majority of them drift off into the column but a fair few get sucked in. I would assume that by the time they have became small enough to to get through the sponge pores and travelled down the inlet pipe there would be very little left of them. I only tend to find I get a little burp now and again and usually when the filter has slowed down a lot so I see it as a sign it's time to clean the filter.


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## john dory (21 Nov 2018)

I have a bazooka,but recently changed to the tropica 3 in 1.
My diffuser is positioned,so that all the bubbles are sucked into the filter.


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## Daveslaney (21 Nov 2018)

Think it more depends on the filter make/model you are using as to if this method suits or not. Some people find it works great others dont. When i tyed it on mine (Tetratec 1200) it burped like crazy and became very noisy. So didnt work for me.
I usually set co2 to 1bps per 70ltrs and adjust from there. There are so many variables ie bubble size,flow rate, different diffusers etc it's hard to advise really.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (21 Nov 2018)

I like the Tropica 3 in 1, very underrated IMO and has quite a fine mist. The Bazooka definitely has the finest mist I've came across so far,when just cleaned its like smoke at times. Mines also positioned right under the intake but the flow of the water still carries most of the bubbles away from the inlet before it has chance to suck them up. I suspect the filter burps more when it has slowed down because more bubbles get pushed away from the inlet when flow is higher and not carried down into the canister.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (21 Nov 2018)

Daveslaney said:


> I usually set co2 to 1bps per 70ltrs and adjust from there.



Same here, about 1bps on 50ltrs. When I watch the bubbles from the bazooka travelling around the tank I can actually watch them disappear. The flow from the lily pipe sends them round in a circular motion. By the time they get round the back of the tank then travel around the front they lose buoyancy and just seem to hang in the water until gone. I have a shrimp strainer on the inlet so only the tiniest bubbles would get into the intake anyway, the rest cling to the strainer. The outlet of the lily is positioned above the inlet and bazooka so bubbles have two options when the leave it, either into the inlet or miss and rise to get pushed round the tank. Either way quite an effective rate of dissolving gas I reckon so I can maintain quite low bps and still get a green DC.

If you were to use some of the glass diffusers with bigger bubbles and no strainer or sponge on the inlet I reckon that would be worse for causing burps as the bigger bubbles will accumulate in the canister. I also have the Tatratec but the 600 if I remember right.


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## Daveslaney (21 Nov 2018)

Yes yours seems a good method best of both really. When i tryed mine i put a inline on the input.
The burping etc was crazy. But it seems to work for some on other filters.
I use a reactor now as i don't like the mist in the tank.


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## HiNtZ (23 Nov 2018)

The BPS debate has been exhausted many times and always arrived at the same conclusion - not all bubble counters are the same so the BPS rate without at least knowing the diameter of the pipe the bubble pops out from is probably about the same as using cubits.

As an example, I have a build in bubble counter on my CO2 Art regulator that hits 10+ BPS while my home made counter (small pop bottle and standard inverted 4mm ID tubing (not standard in material - silicone is recommended for CO2) is doing 3 BPS.

If you copy my gas setup exactly on the same size tank, with the same lighting, flow & fertilisation then I could confidently say 4-5 BPS would be great.... except there are too many factors that go with it.

The way I tuned mine in was to start 6 hours before lights on at 1 BPS, then if my drop checker was still dark I would increase to 2 bps and take an hour off, starting the gas 5 hours before lights on. And so on and so forth. 3 BPS - 4 hours, 4 BPS - 3 hours... ultimately ending up (in my setup) at around 4-5 BPS 2 hours before lights on which sees a nice lime green DC.

Sometimes if I want to make growth extreme I would start the gas at lights on and push to 6 BPS. The results are great but it is borderline for the fish by gas off. It's a knife edge. I don't like running the tank like that when I'm not going to be home for few weeks though.

I think (in my humble and often ill informed opinion) that people aim too much for nice green drop checkers at lights on and thinking that's it - tuned in lovely! Not considering the fact that the carbon needs to be maintained at least above the rate it is being used. I've had tanks that start the day lime green and by the end the DC is dark. A clear indication I need to turn the gas up and the plants are eating more than is available.

One thing you will encounter while asking people's advice to solve plant problems is being told "you don't have enough CO2".

Trust me when I say this.... if you are having plant problems and you're adding fertilisers and decent amount of light - _"you don't have enough CO2"._


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## foxfish (23 Nov 2018)

HiNtZ said:


> The BPS debate has been exhausted many times and always arrived at the same conclusion
> 
> One thing you will encounter while asking people's advice to solve plant problems is being told "you don't have enough CO2".
> 
> Trust me when I say this.... if you are having plant problems and you're adding fertilisers and decent amount of light - _"you don't have enough CO2"._


Yes I agree, there are a few underdeveloped products that are commonly  used by planted tank enthusiasts.
I guess the world wide market is not big enough for major development.

Bubble counters are bordering  on useless for any tank that requires more than a few bps!
I think that when someone new to the hobby first looks at thier bubble counter and sees  a blurr of uncountable bubble steaming into the system, they just assume thy are adding to much gas!!!!


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## AverageWhiteBloke (23 Nov 2018)

It's also a dynamic situation I find so not just a case of marrying up your lighting levels with the gas, plant mass also needs taken into account which inevitably increases with the addition of co2. The bubble counter really tells you only one thing and that's just give you a rough idea of how much that little turn on the needle valve you've just made has changed by a lot or a little bit more. I set up a 50ltr tank in my office after stripping down my tank at home mainly just to keep the plants I had for a future venture and let my remaining fish live out their retirement as it's very difficult to re-home fish round there here parts. Didn't want the hassle of co2 so set it up non co2 with a light that was at its best low to med lighting I would guess without any data and it was dimmable. started of on its lowest setting and dosed about 25% of what would be considered EI, zero issues but no growth to speak of. Got a bit bored with it TBH and having my old reg kit about and a full 5KG pub bottle decided to do 1bps about 4 hrs before lights, net result was major improvement in growth as you would expect so up went the light a setting out the 5. Managed to get away with it until plant mass was filling out more then I was getting a nigh on blue DC at lights on so hack down the plants and another little turn on the needle valve got me back in the green again. Rinse and repeat until eventually the light was at 100%. The next thing I came across was some signs of deficiency in the plants so I just upped an extra 2.5ml syringe of macros every two weeks until it diminished,

Now I've hit a point that the light is 100% for 7.5 hrs, green DC at lights on and dosing about 35% EI values which seems to be the sweet spot for this particular set up. The only adjustments I have to make now is co2 starts getting a bit low when I let the plant mass get out of control which I adjust with the scissors to bring back in-line. Although I do appreciate the 30ppm 1 PH drop and unlimited ferts technique and do appreciate it will work for experienced people I find that it does cause issues for a lot of people in the hobby usually within the first three months with an immature tank. I will be setting all my tanks up this way in the future and would advise anybody just starting off to try it. Go low tech and pick plants suited to it, you can always bring other plants in later on. Get a dimmable light and run it on its lowest setting and gradually bring everything up starting with co2, ferts then light in that order. Take your time and I'm talking here over a period of maybe six months rather than a couple of weeks  like I see most people do in the algae section of the forum. 90% of us aren't aquascapers anyway so what's the rush. I find doing the unlimited ferts and 1ph drop technique is best done in a very mature mature tank as this technique has its pitfalls so best not to combine them with the setting up a new tank pitfalls. Very easy to get sickened this way especially when you've just forked out the neck end of £500 notes on equipment thinking it will buy one instant success. The hobby should be enjoyable after all otherwise it ceases to be a hobby and turns into a job.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (23 Nov 2018)

foxfish said:


> Yes I agree, there are a few underdeveloped products that are commonly used by planted tank enthusiasts.



The world is waiting for a specialist filter designed for planted users with a built in heater and co2 reactor. My money and Dragon's Den is waiting.


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## Edvet (23 Nov 2018)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Although I do appreciate the 30ppm 1 PH drop and unlimited ferts technique and do appreciate it will work for experienced people I find that it does cause issues for a lot of people in the hobby usually within the first three months with an immature tank. I will be setting all my tanks up this way in the future and would advise anybody just starting off to try it. Go low tech and pick plants suited to it, you can always bring other plants in later on. Get a dimmable light and run it on its lowest setting and gradually bring everything up starting with co2, ferts then light in that order. Take your time and I'm talking here over a period of maybe six months rather than a couple of weeks like I see most people do in the algae section of the forum. 90% of us aren't aquascapers anyway so what's the rush. I find doing the unlimited ferts and 1ph drop technique is best done in a very mature mature tank as this technique has its pitfalls so best not to combine them with the setting up a new tank pitfalls. Very easy to get sickened this way especially when you've just forked out the neck end of £500 notes on equipment thinking it will buy one instant success. The hobby should be enjoyable after all otherwise it ceases to be a hobby and turns into a job.



Solid advice!


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## AverageWhiteBloke (23 Nov 2018)

Thanks ED, I wish I could explain this in a scientific way with some cations and ions involved in it to make me look more knowledgeable than I am but the best I've got is within that first 2 to 3 months I just don't think the plants or setup is "ready"  for getting bombarded with loads of co2, ferts and photons especially when the majority of all that is getting wasted. Perhaps the plants need to establish a good root system first and need to have some hospital time not sure. The majority of new plants that get bought are either tissue culture or just had the roughest 48 hours of their lives. Cut down from where it was happy and put in a freezing cold bag. I reckon they just want to chill for a while before being force fed and made to dance under lights. The slower the transition the better.


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## foxfish (23 Nov 2018)

Your method is sensible and sound but probably a bit to cautious and slow for the average beginner who wants full on growth from day one! (Regardless of any implications)
I have always enjoyed dry starts which in some ways is similar....


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## AverageWhiteBloke (23 Nov 2018)

foxfish said:


> Your method is sensible and sound but probably a bit to cautious and slow for the average beginner who wants full on growth from day one!



Probably why I have enough 2nd hand fishkeeping equipment to start my own shop


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## Edvet (23 Nov 2018)

foxfish said:


> average beginner who wants full on growth from day one!


But you can get that if you buy the best equipment and half the sun


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## HiNtZ (25 Nov 2018)

foxfish said:


> Bubble counters are bordering  on useless for any tank that requires more than a few bps!



Been there, thought that - mulled it over many times.... I always arrive at the same solutions though.

Simple: Increase the diameter of the pipe (pointing down in the water of the counter bottle) bigger pipe = bigger bubble at a slower rate. It absolutely must point directly downwards though to hold the bubble long enough to inflate it to an acceptable to be able to then detach and rise.

Complicated/££££: Optical bubble counter. I suppose with Arduino and the clever people that do many things with them, it wouldn't be too hard I suspect? But could you imagine having a digital read out on a bubble counter?! "3.14 BPS" in a nice red phosphorescent colour or something.

Pffff - I wish I knew where to start.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (25 Nov 2018)

There's gel that you can put in bubble counters instead of water I've seen before to slow the whole thing down so you can count high bubble rates. I was once working in a hospital and they were scrapping those things that measure o2 rates. You know the ones with the ball in. Wondered why something like that doesn't get used on co2 gauges. 

Keep coming back to the same thing though, doesn't really matter what's leaving the bottle it's more to do with what happens when it leaves the diffuser. 

Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


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## Fiske (26 Nov 2018)

foxfish said:


> Bubble counters are bordering  on useless for any tank that requires more than a few bps!
> I think that when someone new to the hobby first looks at thier bubble counter and sees  a blurr of uncountable bubble steaming into the system, they just assume thy are adding to much gas!!!!



I bought a bottle/jar type counter (in this case a JBL Countsafe) instead of the regular one for my EA600. That really made a massive difference.

As a sidenote, and not to offend anyone: I find it somewhat hilarious that between all the test sets, the probes, the discussions on TDS, pH and PAR; we inject a potentially lethal gas into our aquariums. And we ascertain the amount by counting bubbles in a glass pipe. (I am aware that's not the only way, but it still seems so... quaint.)


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## Edvet (26 Nov 2018)

Fiske said:


> potentially lethal gas


Wel we have them swimming in a potentially lethal fluid (H20), breathing another potentialy lethal gas (O2)


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## Fiske (26 Nov 2018)

Edvet said:


> Wel we have them swimming in a potentially lethal fluid (H20), breathing another potentialy lethal gas (O2)


I've yet too see any one relate that they drowned their fish in water or killed them with oxygen. Someone killing all livestock with CO2 on the other hand... So there's that...


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