# C02 and ph controller



## Rabbit229 (17 Jun 2015)

Is they a system that makes sense! It's all to confusing 

Is they any links for a site that talks in English with diagrams on how it works. How do I set one up?
Can't I buy a c02 and a ph controller in one unit.
Just trying get my head round it all


----------



## Rabbit229 (17 Jun 2015)

Dose the ph controller have a ph up - ph down liquid that dripps in to the tank?


----------



## xim (18 Jun 2015)

Rabbit229 said:


> Dose the ph controller have a ph up - ph down liquid that dripps in to the tank?



No.

It works like a thermostat. But instead of controlling the temperature, this one controls CO2 injection.

CO2 makes water acidic and the pH gets down. So it uses the pH to determine when to inject or stop the CO2.

A pH controller kit has a pH probe that you put into the water, a controlling unit for you to set a
range of the pH, and an electric outlet for you to power the CO2 solenoid valve.

When the pH of the water gets down below the range you have set, the pH controller cuts the power of the outlet,
which will turn off (shut) the solenoid valve, stop the CO2.

Then when the CO2 level in the water gets depleted, the pH will go up. When the pH goes up above the set range, the controller will resume the power to the outlet. The solenoid valve will open and start CO2 injection again.

Have a look at the Level 3's diagram.
http://www.dennerle.eu/global/index...ategory&id=146&layout=blog&Itemid=206&lang=en


----------



## Rabbit229 (18 Jun 2015)

This makes perfect sence now.
What is a reliable and easy system to program.
I'll be buying one this week


----------



## 5678 (18 Jun 2015)

Keen to see replies to this as I am interested in one too. 

I'd be keen to hear peoples thoughts on the reliability of the PH controllers and their service requirements.


----------



## ian_m (18 Jun 2015)

Basically they are an unnecessary toy that in most cases (there are a few expert people with gorgeous tanks and CO2 controllers) cause algae and sometimes fish death due to CO2 fluctuations.

The CO2 controllers do not in fact measure CO2 levels they measure pH, as with pure water (and carbonate buffered water) pH is related to the amount of CO2 dissolved. Unfortunately the pH reading of the pH probe in your tank depends on lots of other things other than CO2, hardness of water, amount of salts in water (especially true if dosing EI), amount of dead fish, amount of live fish etc. So off to a dodgy start here.

Also pH probes are not fit and forget devices, they do wear out and they really should be calibrated regularly. This is one reason CO2 controller users get algae as the probe drifts and CO2 levels drop, plants die and algae moves in.

Really a CO2 controller should measure a pH drop, they don't of course they measure absolute pH of the tank, as a pH drop of 1 unit from no CO2 to CO2 injected is about 30ppm regardless of the hardness of the water and in most cases water contamination. So you should really set you CO2 controller every day when CO2 and lights are off. If water is initially say pH 6.4 your need to set it to turn off CO2 at pH 7.4, which will be 30ppm CO2. Done.

Or, not use a CO2 controller, use timer on CO2 solenoid, drop checker to read CO2 level (or pH pen), slight surface agitation and just get on with it, like most of the people here manage to do.


----------



## zozo (18 Jun 2015)

There are system providing an all in one as far as posible. That is PH controller and solenoid and or time clock combined. Where you connect the co2 hose to the unit i believe JBL and Denerle have those kind of systems. Looks nice and fancy works the same as constructing a system from seperate parts. That's just a personal preference and a matter of trusting the product.

The downsite from the all in one system is, (without taking the cost in consideration) if 1 component in the system fails you need to bring/send the whole unit to the repair shop. And as long it is gone you're only left with a co2 bottle, a regulator, a difuser and a wet finger DC to probe.

But you can also do it all in seperate parts and buy a controler which probes the PH and operates a conneccted solenoid which again is switched on and off with a timer switch..

Well known instrument manufacturers providing these units are Milwaukee, Hanna instruments and Wiepro, the first 2 i already know for over 30 years. I guess after producing products like that for such a long time, they know what they are doing by now. I've used a Hanna for a very long time, still got it and it is far over 15 years old and still works with a 8 years old probe. Now i'm using an old Milwaukee SMS122 of which i do not know how old it is but it is and it still works like a charme with the 8 years old Hanna probe. (But did order me a new probe anyway last week).

I have no clue about the quality from the aquarium brands provided all in one systems.. My preference goes to what i have very good experience with. Seperate components and good old fashion brands with straight forward products.


----------



## Jose (18 Jun 2015)

Definately stay away from a ph controller if youre starting off. You can get one just to monitor pH but not to set it into "automatic mode" and control co2 levels. Big chance youll gas all your fish if you do. Basically the set points have to be changed with any variation in water (hardness), like at the time of a water change.


----------



## zozo (18 Jun 2015)

What Jose says  it's not a lay back product where you can leave it all to the automation. What ever you use to make life more easy, with a live aquarium you have to stay on top yourself and check and double check all the time and control your controllers and still need to know what you are doing. 

In the first place all that controller stuff is developed for professional farmers to grow huge tomatos for the food industry and such. From there it blew over to the hobby aquatic plant keepers and the aquarium branche manufacturers want a piece of that cake too.

For growing letuce there are not many downsides with this your tomato gets bigger or not, thats it. When it comes to livestock, enough said for that above. I honestly have to say i never ever would buy something like that for over € 180, not worth it. If i didn't find it by chance 2nd hand for € 15 i never would have bought the toy. 

Hence the looks of this over 15 year old Hanna PH checker, where co2 in the aquarium still was only for the real die hards and rare to find..


----------



## Marcel G (18 Jun 2015)

ian_m said:


> Unfortunately the pH reading of the pH probe in your tank depends on lots of other things other than CO2, hardness of water, amount of salts in water (especially true if dosing EI), amount of dead fish, amount of live fish etc.



How can the pH reading depend on the hardness of water? Hardness is the amount of Ca(+2) and Mg(+2), whereas pH indicates the relative amount of H(+) and OH(-) ions.

What may in fact depend (to some extent) on the amount of some of the above mentioned ions (like phosphates), is not the pH but rather the alkalinity which we use to estimate the CO2 level.

Total alkalinity = [HCO3-] + 2[CO3--] + [B(OH)4-] + [OH-] + [SiO(OH)3-] + [MgOH+] + [H2PO4-] + 2[HPO4--] + 3[PO4---] + [CH3COO-] - [H+].

So from this equation you can see what affects the total alkalinity:
1) in a positive sense: bicarbonates (HCO3) and carbonates (CO3), hydroxides (OH), silicates (Si), humic substances (CH3COO), and different forms of phosphates (H2PO4, HPO4, PO4)
2) in a negative sense: hydrogen (H) ions

So adding phosphates, silicates or humic substances into the tank will cause an increase of alkalinity, while the addition of acids (like HCl, H2CO3 etc. with H+ ions) will decrease total alkalinity.

BUT don't overestimate the effect of these substances!
Clearly the biggest impact on the alkalinity have bicarbonates (HCO3), and at higher pH also carbonates (CO3) ... as at high pH part or most of the HCO3 changes to CO3.

Examples:
_*KH = 1°dH, PO4 = 3 ppm*_
If in the aquarium water with a temperature of 27°C, pH 6.4 and the PO4 content of ~3 ppm we measure _total alkalinity_ of 0.357 mmol/ℓ (= 1°dKH), the share of bicarbonates in the water will be about 90%, i.e. the _carbonate alkalinity_ will be 0.9°dKH.
_*
KH = 5.9°dH, PO4 = 3 ppm*_
If in the aquarium water with a temperature of 27°C, pH 6.4 and the PO4 content of 3 ppm we measure _total alkalinity_ of 2.096 mmol/ℓ (= 5.9°dKH), then the _carbonate alkalinity_ comprise of about 95%, i.e. 2.0 mmol/ℓ (5.6°dKH).
_*
KH = 3.9°dH, PO4 = 12 ppm*_
If in the aquarium water with a temperature of 27°C, pH 6.4 and the PO4 content of 12 ppm we measure _total alkalinity_ of 1.378 mmol/ℓ (= 3.9°dKH), then the _carbonate alkalinity _comprise of about 73%, i.e. 1.0 mmol/ℓ (2.8°dKH).

PS: At higher alkalinity the share of bicarbonates will increase (and the effect of phosphates will proportionately decrease).

I don't suppose anyone of us uses 12 ppm of PO4 in his/her tank. Most EI people use 3 ppm of PO4 at most. So under "normal" EI circumstances you can assume that the phosphates effect is 10% in 1°dKH tank, and 5% in 6°dKH tank *at most*. In reality, most phosphates will "disapear" from your water in a few minutes or hours (whether they being uptaken by plants or get absorbed into the substrate). So the effect of phosphates on total alkalinity is more like in virtual reality realm. But in some tanks with inert substrate is can play some (small) role. With the humic substances it's a similar story.


----------



## Jose (18 Jun 2015)

Ive actually noticed something interesting (at least for me) in my tank lately. I normally get a "ph drop" of around 1.2 with  approx 1BPS. A few days back I added a lot of H3PO4 (phosophoric acid) to tank taking the ph down from 8.2 to around 6.9. Now the interesting thing is that with the same BPS I now get around 0.6/0.7 ph drop. So "ph drop" is not affected by carbonates (its independant), but it might be affected by other substances in the water e.g acids and bases. Also I appreciate this is not typical in "normal tanks" as ardjuna says since people dont normally add this much acid to the water.


----------



## ian_m (18 Jun 2015)

ardjuna said:


> How can the pH reading depend on the hardness of water


It is pH reading in presence of carbonate hardness and CO2.

Below is one of the "standard" charts mapping hardness pH and CO2 levels. As you see pH depends on hardness (and CO2).


----------



## Jose (18 Jun 2015)

ardjuna said:


> How can the pH reading depend on the hardness of water? Hardness is the amount of Ca(+2) and Mg(+2), whereas pH indicates the relative amount of H(+) and OH(-) ions.



The problem I think is that hardness can mean many things. It can mean Gh, KH, etc. Ph doesnt depend on GH but it does depend on KH. You guys are both right.


----------



## Marcel G (18 Jun 2015)

ian_m said:


> Below is one of the "standard" charts mapping hardness pH and CO2 levels. As you see pH depends on hardness (and CO2).


If you want to make more chaos in the topic then continue to use misleading terms like "KH hardness".
I don't know how about UK, but here in the Czech Republic the term _*hardness *_is (or should be) strictly linked to Ca(+2) and Mg(+2) ions. What the above chart refers to is not hardness but _*carbonate alkalinity*_! The difficulty most people have to understand this topic is caused mainly by using misleading (wrong) terms. The above chart has nothing to do with any hardness, because it just shows (in graphical form) the relationship between different carbon form in water => CO2:HCO3:CO3. Under different pH the carbon changes its form. So if you want to know what amount of CO2 you have in your tank, you need to know at least two other parameters from the equation: 1) pH, 2) HCO3 (or CO3) content. *Without this data you won't be able to calculate your CO2 level.* But here lies the _*core problem*_ => We are not able to find out the HCO3 concentration in water! Why? Because we have no specific test on HCO3 ions. So how do we solve this problem? We can find out the HCO3 concentration _*indirectly *_... by measuring _*total alkalinity*_. As I already stated, most of the total alkalinity value is made by the HCO3/CO3 ions. So by knowing the total alkalinity value (measured by the "KH tests"), we consider it to be HCO3 concentration (althougth it's not true). So if you want to use the above chart for estimating the CO2 concentration in your tank, you should know all this!


----------



## zozo (18 Jun 2015)

Lets throw a pie to the Germans..  They started it with the GH in DH = GesamtHärte in Deutsche Härte grad und und und also also also dann kam KH = KarbonatHärte verdamt auch noch mal in Deutsche Härte Grad. Now the sceintists still are battling who to blame for the PH the H stands for Hydrogen, some say the P stands for the German Potenz but then the H = misleading Because Hydrogen isn't realy used in German they say stricktly Wasserstoff and it isn't PW. So it must be French? Because the laboratory where PH was discovered was French speaking it must be puissance?.. Nonono others say.. It must be Pondus Hydrogenii but still we got Potentia Hydrogenii. Now what is it?

No wonder pastries are doing so well these days.. Don't they?

But i guess at the bottom line Marcel is right we also say Hard water when there is a lot of Calcium in it. Actualy not many poeple know it also can me Magnesium what they gor in the kettle..


----------



## Tim Harrison (18 Jun 2015)




----------



## DanielC03 (18 Jun 2015)

The tables reflect the Henderson-Hasselbalch equation. If you do not know all solutes we can not conclude anything


----------



## Rabbit229 (18 Jun 2015)

This thread had just gone totally bonkers. I'm a newby and now I'm thinking to stay clear from aquascape and stick to my discus. It sounds to technical 
I thought you could just get a system that is simple. I have no degree in water. I'm just a roofer


----------



## Marcel G (18 Jun 2015)

DanielC03 said:


> If you do not know all solutes we can not conclude anything


I don't agree. If you know that HCO3 makes about 90% of the total alkalinity, and you measure 5°dKH, then the carbonate alkalinity (= HCO3 content) is 4.5°dKH, and this number you can use in the pH/alkalinity/CO2 chart. So although you may not know all the solutes in your solution, you can make a "qualified guess" ... in case you don't have any non-standard conditions in your tank. If you have lot of phosphates, lot of tanis or organics in your tank etc. ... then, of course, you are better not to use the chart for CO2 estimation.


----------



## Marcel G (18 Jun 2015)

Rabbit229 said:


> This thread had just gone totally bonkers. I'm a newby and now I'm thinking to stay clear from aquascape and stick to my discus. It sounds to technical ...


Sorry for our technical discussion, but in case you want to use CO2 in your tank, you should know (at least) some basics. And these (the above discussed things) are just basics. Someone may say that you watch TV and may not know the technical aspect of its operation also, but when using CO2 you can kill all your critters in your tank, so you should have some knowledge of its behaviour and natural relations. And the main problem we discussed here was that it's hard to even know the real CO2 concentration in your tank, because we have no affordable way how to measure dissolved CO2 directly (as true CO2 meters costs more than $2000). So the only way for us is to guess it based on some inaccurate measurements of pH and total alkalinity, and complicated scientific calculations.

PS: If you want to know the real hard scientific data behind the pH/KH/CO2 chart, then you can go here, fill out the input data, and click on the "calculate" button. You'll see all the details of how the chart is being "created".


----------



## Tim Harrison (18 Jun 2015)

Rabbit229 said:


> This thread had just gone totally bonkers. I'm a newby and now I'm thinking to stay clear from aquascape and stick to my discus. It sounds to technical
> I thought you could just get a system that is simple. I have no degree in water. I'm just a roofer


Don't worry I trained as a scientist and I haven't got a clue what they're talking about either...luckily for us it doesn't matter...


----------



## Rabbit229 (18 Jun 2015)

Okay that's it I'm going back to college and go for a degree in water chemistry


----------



## Rabbit229 (18 Jun 2015)

Ok putting all that aside!

What's going to make this easier ???

( if I was going to learn that so called basics I'd may as well change my carrier)


----------



## ian_m (18 Jun 2015)

Rabbit229 said:


> What's going to make this easier ???


Just buy one of these

http://www.co2art.co.uk/collections...plete-aquarium-co2-system-for-tank-up-to-500l
Get a fire extinguisher from your local fire extinguisher supplier (look in Yellow pages or phone the number on the extinguishers at work) or even Ebay.

Attach regulator, pipe together, adjust bubbles. Done.


----------



## Tim Harrison (18 Jun 2015)

I think I may have lost track of the point somewhere, or maybe I didn't understand it in the first place...but either way don't worry about pH...IMO all this controller stuff is a bit of a red herring, like Ian said a while back...maybe this will help http://www.ukaps.org/index.php?page=co2-measurement-using-a-drop-checker


----------



## zozo (18 Jun 2015)

The easiest way is starting down at the ladder, so you are already into Discus i see. So you're already famiiar with low tech and how to run things and keep 'm in check. That still doesn't mean that you can skip the first half of the ladder and jump right to the top. 

When you want to go high tech with co2 then you're far from easy if you do not have any experience nor understand the chemistry and physics basics involved. It ain't rocket seince but in way you need to know what you are doing. Then the easiest way to start is reading all tutorials regarding co2 all the basics you need to know are explained in there very adequate. 

You could buy a nice starters kit  don't dive into deep or to expensive, look for example for a 2nd hand functional disposable botlle kit from somebody who decided to go a step further.

Then give it a try and keep the learned stuff from the tutorials in mind. Measure PH and KH add co2 see what you dropchecker does, measure again, see the table posted earlier in this topic and compare the results. Keep it green..  Add firts to make your plants grow. Mean while adding Co2 and other firts you probably will encounter other dificulties, like algae growth or plants getting into shortage of stuff, melting, coloring what ever, all kinds of things can happen.

Then you have UKAPS  ask questions about what you encounter and experience. People will help you to get a hang of it. After a while playing manualy and measuring this an that and so you'll find out soon enough if you like it enough to go a step further. By then you have learned the basics you need to know.

Then you can start spending big bucks for a nice automated system, with a timer switch and a co2 solenoid and maybe if you're rich enough a 150 buks PH controler.

Now what's easy about a PH smart controler.. Not so very much..  you still have to check your KH and PH and watch you fish and plants like a hawk every day and possibly reset your smart controller regularly. It aint smart all the way.. The controller will shut down the co2 when a certain PH value is reached. A value you have to set yourself regarding the measured KH value and desired co2 ppm and what you see in the plants and fish. If things are off you have to check again and find waths wrong, calibration of the controller, wrong KH test, to much or to less firts? The only easy thing is, you do not need to keep the bubble count manualy in check all the time. 
So spending 150 buks for just that is depending on your salary maybe a bit to much. Even with a PH smart controler you need to set your bubble count in such a way that if the system fails and doesn't shut off you will never gass your fish or shrimps. They simply die of suffocation if you don't and if it fails when your not home or just not paying attention. Understand the dangers of the ease and then you'll see the PH smart controller isn't realy worth the money for the average hobbyist if you can't find a cheap used one. A good steady needle valve and a good fuctioning regulator is as sufficiant. With or without a smart controller you still need to pay attention anyway. Some people don't and gass their fish, i believe there are topics about that as well here at UKAPS only the real heros dare to post. I don't want to know the number of the silent non heros putting lots of lifes on the line but their own.  Smart?


----------



## dw1305 (19 Jun 2015)

Hi all,





Rabbit229 said:


> This thread had just gone totally bonkers.


It has, and it hasn't, I'm sort of scientist too and I know enough to know that I don't fully understand the chemistry either. People will argue that you don't need to know exactly what happens when you add CO2, but personally I'd be a lot happier if I did.

I'm not a CO2 user (why add another possibility for accidentally  killing your fish? I can do that without any help), but If you do want to use CO2, my suggestion would be the same as Troi's, to use a <"drop checker"> to estimate your CO2.

You can have a perfectly good planted tank <"without CO2">. You can use a soil substrate if you want more plant growth (linked thread in the quote) 





Troi said:


> <"The Soil Substrate Planted Tank - a How to Guide...">


Have a look at  <"Poco Pozo"> and <"leaving hobby....">, for other non-CO2 tanks.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Rabbit229 (20 Jun 2015)

Thanks for all your input
I never new about the drop checker!

As for the fish or shrimps, I don't want them yet I want to get it right and play around with the plants. Once i have mastered it or quite familiar with how it all works I'll then concider buying the fish. For me it's all about getting the under water garden looking awsome.

I will buy that kit from the link that you sent troi 

We're is a good place to buy the glass tulip and pipes from.


----------



## Tim Harrison (20 Jun 2015)

Try our sponsors...http://www.ukaps.org/index.php?page=upaks-sponsors


----------



## Rabbit229 (22 Jun 2015)

Found the glass tulips but the don't seam to sell the pic connector pipes


----------



## Rabbit229 (22 Jun 2015)

Ok so if I just have the CO2 regulator with out the ph controller, will this mean I will have to turn the CO2 of and on manually every day.


----------



## ian_m (22 Jun 2015)

No you get a regulator with solenoid and connect solenoid to timer to turn gas on and off as required.


----------



## GHNelson (22 Jun 2015)

Hi
Some  Co2 regulators  can have a solenoid attached as in the photograph!
This can be plugged into a wall socket timer which will switch the Co2 on and off when required!

Cheers
hoggie


----------



## Rabbit229 (22 Jun 2015)

Thumbs up  
Now I'm learning


----------



## Rabbit229 (23 Jun 2015)

My tank is almost 900 ltr so will I need 2 co2 bottles and 2 regulator kits, I'm sure I read it on
Y dose 500ltr


----------

