# Living off grid solar/wind/geothermal?



## Garuf (10 Sep 2012)

Hello all, I was just wondering if anyone has any experience with any of the new "alternative" technologies, my parents have just had their electricity bill and are considering going for a turbine and solar panels as well as potentially a ground source heat pump. We looked into paying people to fit the required solar but were quoted 10k when we asked what panels they'd be using we looked them up and found them available for 4k, that's 6k instillation which I find insane and could potentially mean 150% more power for the same money. Reading around on instructables mainly it seems that installing solar is actually very easy with a bit of electrical know how which we have, I was just wondering if anyone knew who were best and where would be the place to find out how to do it all yourself would be? The same goes for a turbine, we have had the windiest summer I can remember and our location on the top of a hill on what's essentially moorland means we get relatively strong winds all year round, presumably a turbine is plug and play? Again we're looking to find out who makes the best and how to best attach this to the house. 

The geothermal thing is a bit of a long shot, we figured that for the relatively modest outlay it was the best bet for year round hot water? At the minute we'd have to light a fire to get the water up to temperature, not really all the practical in the middle of summer. Reading around lots of people seem to be having good results with it but I just wondered what the practical limitations are and what the true cost of it is as the few I've seen seem to be complete kits for around 900 or so pounds. Does anyone know much about these? 

For my parents getting off grid with regards to electricity is pretty much the number one priority as electricity bills have gone from a few hundred to nearly 2 thousand despite fitting energy saving bulbs everywhere, replacing halogens with fluorescent tubes and having tv's and the like on timers to cut off automatically during the time people are unlikely to be using them, I wouldn't even say that as a family we're all the power hungry compared to the average council house we use probably half the amount of electricity. 

Also any information that I can use when I go back to renting on getting off grid myself would be mighty helpful even if it's just enough to offset my tanks electricity. 

So, I throw it over to you lot, who knows what?


----------



## hinch (10 Sep 2012)

there's a limit to the amount of electricity you can generate before you require a commercial generation license.

I could only cover about 1/4 of my roof with solar panels before I hit the limit.  it cost me about 12k to install but I also get the older feed in tariff but i'm still looking at a repayment time of 15+ years.  At the moment the cost is just silly and  there's no financial benefit over just staying with the current suppliers (couple that with unreliable thanks to our weather).  However even so I still did it as it wasn't really about saving money for me but reducing my overall carbon footprint.


----------



## Garuf (10 Sep 2012)

It's not so much about saving money for us directly either, but more about avoiding the stealth increases and always being at the mercy of companies that don't really give a toss what they do as long as they're turning a profit. Much better to be the responsible for your own electricity than paying someone else who has repeatedly and without warning hiked prices time and time again with the flimsiest of excuses.


----------



## skeletonw00t (10 Sep 2012)

Renewables are a joke.

I'd advise going nuclear.


----------



## dw1305 (10 Sep 2012)

Hi all,
Depending a little bit what the money goes on, more effective insulation  is probably the thing that can save you most money, particularly if you can get in before the EU stops us having a special 5% VAT rate on insulation, <http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/>.

We've got PV solar panels, and if we had a bit more roof space I'd definitely get a thermal system as well. 
This should link to our solar panels in real time <http://home.solarlog-web.co.uk/35.html>, 14kWh & £6.37 generated yesterday, £2 so far today (this is with the old higher FIT however). The initial cost is quite high, but they are maintenance free and we should get our money back in 10 - 12 years, even if we have to replace the inverter (~£1000).

My under-standing is that wind turbines aren't as good, unless you can build a really large turbine. It is all to do with rotor tip speed. A large turbine needs a large tower and a lot of concrete, as well as safety maintenance etc. Carymoor Environmental Trust where we do some work have had "wind turbine tales of woe". If its really windy where you live a smaller turbine might be a runner <http://www.bwea.com/small/index.html>.
Also have a look here: <http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generating-energy/Choosing-a-renewable-technology/Wind-turbines> & here for your locality <http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk...logy/Wind-turbines/Wind-Speed-Prediction-Tool>

Geothermal works the type you are looking for are "Ground source heat pumps", but you need a big investment initially, and a reasonably large area of ground for the piping.
Have a  look here: <http://www.icsheatpumps.co.uk/tools/selector.php>

cheers Darrel


----------



## Garuf (10 Sep 2012)

Thank you for the input because nuclear is _clearly_ the way to go for a low income family...


----------



## Garuf (10 Sep 2012)

Thanks for the input Darrel I'm glad someone is taking it seriously. 
Great information too, I'll read into it shortly. Am I right in thinking you're in Oxfordish region? If so I applied for a job in your neck of the woods, nicholas pearsons asc.

That aside, surface area isn't really an issue, we have 2 acres of land immediately adjacent to the property but high maintainance is something probably best avoided. 

With turbines I'm able to do a LVIA and since there's already a lot popping up in the area I suspect they're a pretty easy thing to put through planning. 

Thanks again, I'll get reading!


----------



## ian_m (10 Sep 2012)

I investigated a wind turbine for a club cottage in Wales many years ago, at request of some members.

If I remember right, issues were
- Needs to be large to generate any decent amount of electricity, we were looking for 3-10KW and cost about £15K.
- Large means substantial cost.
- Large means 3rd party maintenance would be required.
- Large means planning permission will probably be required, cottage near National Park so no go on this one.
- Substantial noise can be generated.
- Really needs some form of power storage as cottage would really only be used at the weekends.
- Someone did record wind speeds for many months and was not as windy as expected. Yes there were high winds, but most of the time there was not sufficient wind to generate decent power.

In the end not really cost effective.

Glad we didn't as a fellow club cottage did fit something (2KW ?) at some substantial cost (and noise) and it all got blown away one stormy night. Insurance didn't cover it, but of they had had a maintenance contract at £100's/year it would have covered.


----------



## dw1305 (10 Sep 2012)

Hi all,


> Am I right in thinking you're in Oxfordish region?


 Just east of Bath. 





> nicholas pearsons


 If you get the job we may well meet, as NP are our (BSU) and our land-lords (the Duchy of Cornwall) environmental consultants. I know a few of their ecologists as 2 are ex-students, and one is an ex-colleague. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Garuf (10 Sep 2012)

I'll cross turbine off the list then, I'd assumed that caravan batteries would be a good idea for storing the charge but I can see limitations there. There seems to be a lot of legislation stifling the solar, the margins for generation and then licensing are ultra thin, it strikes me all as politics in favour of corporations. 

Darrel, I'll keep that in mind it'd be good to cross paths! It's likely if I get the job I'll be doing nothing but LVIA's, they're pretty much the only thing that employers in landscape architecture want at the minute, not much scope for people who's strengths were in design and masterplanning... I'm thinking of going back into education to diversify and get more ecological based knowledge but at the same time, I want to improve and move into urban planning while the market has collapsed it seems wise to keep improving while the market is collapsed. Hard choices. I've got a compulsory 36week placement to find before I can go back for post-grad which is another losing battle.


----------



## nry (10 Sep 2012)

Current panels are very inefficient - the next gen ones are within my lifetime and efficiency is much improved.  This current thing about solar panels is going to land people with loads of old tech in not that many years if you ask me.


----------



## Garuf (10 Sep 2012)

Oh yeah I have to agree, I was reading about infrared and "farblue" scavenging solar panels in new scientist not that long ago and they're claiming 500% increases in efficiency within a matter of years. The old tech thing is apparently a concern enough that in Germany a lot of companies who do instilations are offering either contracted upgrades or reduced cost upgrades regularly and recycling on old panels. 

But then again, if no one is buying panels waiting for them to get more efficient then the research into making them more so is only going to be curtailed for a lack of a market? I don't know. I think there's a lot of benefits to be had, it depends on your means and goals I guess to how you weigh up the real cost and if the inefficiency is justifiable.


----------



## nry (10 Sep 2012)

All I know is that at work, where our electric is £8000+ per annum, our LA put up masses of 3-phase panels and we're saving £600 per year.  A house is going to generate much less on 2-phase and less panel coverage...


----------



## Garuf (10 Sep 2012)

Well we've out buildings we'd be able to put panels on in addition to just the house but we'd most likely need licensing. That's a very good point though. 

I've been reading that cleaning the panels twice a year can increase yeild after 12months by 100% compared to uncleaned panels and this is where a lot of people are falling down.


----------



## nry (10 Sep 2012)

Quite probably, ours have some form of contract to cover that as a 3rd party company is milking off some of the feed-in tarrif...can't see how they'll get much from us though


----------



## ian_m (10 Sep 2012)

Garuf said:
			
		

> I've been reading that cleaning the panels twice a year can increase yeild after 12months by 100% compared to uncleaned panels and this is where a lot of people are falling down.


This is why you should get panels fitted to your house on a maintenance contract. A mate near me spent £13k+ on his panels + £100/year maintenance (I think) and they have been out a couple of times to fix things. Once was due to incorrect wiring during installation causing the controller to fault occasionally and other was "panel failure" according to display (18 months old). Panel failure was in fact due to the fact that a flying elephant had obviously lightened its load as passing and covered up sufficient of one of the panels, that the controller thought it had failed.   

The maintenace company cleaned the panel and is all OK now.

I am not convinced of the economics, and the fact that my house is 90 degree to his, thus does not have a suitable roof to put panels on. His current estimates are saving over £600/year, which is pay back time of 21 years !! Was quoted payback times of 10 years by the suppliers.


----------



## Garuf (10 Sep 2012)

25 year quoted life time on the panels, so, 4 years free electricity? 

I think some of the quotes are a bit wide of the mark and this is probably down to less than perfect positioning by overzealous companies stretching just how far suitable really is. 

The other thing is sun tracking, I've been reading that suntracking can give around a 70% yield increase, it all seems like a lot of the people in it are using a suck it and see approach. Seems a little bit like the people who are in doing some fittings aren't what you'd called solar engineering experts too, perhaps?


----------



## ian_m (10 Sep 2012)

The other thing is I can stick £15k in building sociecty @ 4% for 10 years (probably get more if I searched) and get £22.2K back, that's £720/year return, greater than my mates return on his panels. 

Oh and still have the £15K left at the end of 10 years.


----------



## dw1305 (10 Sep 2012)

Hi all,
I can only go by our solar panels, but they have performed better than we were quoted for, and even this year we will be over 100%. This isn't an estimate, if you have a look at the Solar-log link in my earlier posts you can look back over the last 18months (we changed our broad-band in June 2012 and it took some time to re-connect the Solar-log IP address).  

cheers Darrel


----------

