# Help with stag horn



## Raws69 (6 Nov 2020)

Hi

now starting to see a lot of this stuff all over the tank.  Seen people suggest flourish excel, but thought this was an additive the same as tnc carbon (which I use daily).  So does it do the same? If so why is it not clearing the algae.  My co2 appears to be good and has been stable now for over a month. Tank is an Ada 60x45x45 with an Oase600t, so flow is good across the tank.

appreciate all help as this is starting to be v annoying..

cheers


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## Luketendo (7 Nov 2020)

When I got this I started cleaning my filter more often and switched from lean dosing (ADA) to EI type and it went away.


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## dw1305 (7 Nov 2020)

Hi all, 


Luketendo said:


> When I got this I started cleaning my filter more often


From your other <"Stagshorn post">.

cheers Darrel


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## Raws69 (7 Nov 2020)

Hi

i clean the pre filter every week, and the main filter once a month. I’ve looked into EI dosing and for a beginner appears overly complicated and just more stuff to worry about getting right.

My question still stands re difference between tnc carbon and excel, can someone pls confirm.


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## Raws69 (7 Nov 2020)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> From your other <"Stagshorn post">.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Hi

i started to read the article someone attached to my other post, and to be honest got lost in the information. I’m new to the hobby and could do with an idiots guide type of response 😂


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## dw1305 (7 Nov 2020)

Hi all, 


Raws69 said:


> i started to read the article someone attached to my other post, and to be honest got lost in the information


You are good, we don't know what causes any of the different types of algae to "outbreak". We think that outbreaks of Stagshorn (_Compsopogon_) may be related to high levels of Dissolved Organic Matter (DOM). Because we have plants, usually have large water changes and relatively high levels of flow (even in low tech tanks), the source of that DOM is unlikely to be in the tank, but  if we use our filter as a syphon etc, it may be inside the filter body. 

cheers Darrel


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## Kezzab (7 Nov 2020)

TNC Carbon and Excel are basically the same.

Treating the whole tank with either will not resolve the problem you have in my experience.

I have had success with misting staghorn when its exposed at water change with a mix of about 50ml of TNC Carbon and 300ml water. But that's tricky for a carpet.

I would trim the hair grass hard and hope new growth stays algae free.

I also notice a rather yellow and dead looking plant on the right of your pic, if all those leave are dead then there's a big source of the DOC that @dw1305 mentions. Get rid of all the deadl leaves unless it looks different in real life.


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## dw1305 (7 Nov 2020)

Hi all,


Kezzab said:


> I also notice a rather yellow and dead looking plant on the right of your pic,


I think it  is a _Blyxa, _so probably with naturally brown leaves?

cheers Darrel


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## Luketendo (8 Nov 2020)

Raws69 said:


> Hi
> 
> i clean the pre filter every week, and the main filter once a month. I’ve looked into EI dosing and for a beginner appears overly complicated and just more stuff to worry about getting right.
> 
> My question still stands re difference between tnc carbon and excel, can someone pls confirm.



Try cleaning the main filter once a week. That's what I did. EI type simply means any fertiliser based off the EI system, there are plenty available commerically which you don't have to mix yourself.


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## Raws69 (8 Nov 2020)

Luketendo said:


> Try cleaning the main filter once a week. That's what I did. EI type simply means any fertiliser based off the EI system, there are plenty available commerically which you don't have to mix yourself.


I did not know that, are these then cheaper than say prime in the long run? thought this Was the main benefit of EI as self mixed cuts out the dilution in commercial products....


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## Luketendo (8 Nov 2020)

Raws69 said:


> I did not know that, are these then cheaper than say prime in the long run? thought this Was the main benefit of EI as self mixed cuts out the dilution in commercial products....



Prime is a dechlorinator not a fertiliser. I recommend you watch this video on lean vs EI dosing types to learn to pros and cons


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## Raws69 (8 Nov 2020)

nuts, I meant tnc complete


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## Raws69 (8 Nov 2020)

So watched the vid, very helpful thank you.  I have good pearling on the moss and plants, so according to the vid the nutrient levels are ok.  I have been doubling up on the recommended dosage of tnc complete, wondering then if this is contributing to the algae (but would I still get the pearling in this case).  I need to profile the co2 in my other tank so will also check this one.

last question, does tnc complete fall into the rich or lean category, I assume rich.


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## Kezzab (8 Nov 2020)

TNC is a complete fertilser. If you use a lot then it's rich, if you use a little then it's lean.

That's a little simplistic, i grant you. But near enough.

Pearling isnt really a sign of plant health. Simply that the tank water has reached oxygen saturation point so when the plants produce oxygen it appears As bubbles. It's neither good or bad.

Double dosing TNC should not cause algae.


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## Raws69 (9 Nov 2020)

Starting to lose the will to carry on.  Just noticed black beard algae now on the centre piece.

I can take this piece out, so should I dose directly with excel (if so how much, can it be neat?)
or should I bleach the rock?

im going to do a ph profile later this week, to check co2 levels anyway.

but I still have a question around the impact of maintenance to co2 and lighting.  For instance my co2 schedule in 8.30am to 5.30pm with light 11.30 to 5.30 including the ramp up/down periods.  Light intensity is 75%.  I switched everything off and spent a good 2hrs cleaning the tank, filter and giving everything a good prune (including the carpet) to remove as much stag horn as possible.  But this has then interrupted the co2 levels in the tank?

so should I only do maintenance after the lights and co2 finish, which will be a pain? Or on maintenance day do I just not put the lights on until the co2 checker shows green again (which may or may not be until the end of the normal light schedule?

or does one day not matter? In which case why has bba appeared over night?

appolgies for picture quality taken on iphone, but assume the black fuzzy stuff on the edges of the rock is bba.


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## Kezzab (9 Nov 2020)

Firstly, chill out.  Aquascaping is 90% a pain in the blahblahblahblah, get used to it. 

BBA happens. God knows why. If you have a burning desire, you can read the longest thread ever on here about it.

Next water change, do a big one so you expose the rock work. "Paint" Excel/Glute directly onto the BBA using a toothbrush or cotton bub. Let it sit there for a few mins, then refill. Over a few days the BBA will turn red. Do same again next water change. After about 7-10 days it will have disappeared. If you keep on top of usual maintenance then fingers crossed it will stay away. If not, repeat.

Re CO2 etc etc. If it's easier, on maintenance day just leave the CO2 and lights off all day, retstart your routine the following day. There should be no ill effect from this at all. And remember to do a bigish water change after a big prune.


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## Raws69 (9 Nov 2020)

Cheers.... doing weekly 50% changes at moment, but will for the next few weeks go to twice weekly and blitz the bba


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## Siege (9 Nov 2020)

you can hassle BBA away. Scrub it with a small wire brush.

However yours is quite bad and has come on quick.
id suggest it is caused by fluctuating co2 combined with excess waste.

ensure your co2 is a nice light green colour at lights on. Move the drop checker around the tank for a week to see.

remove waste with a turkey baster at water change, blast it all up. The larger the water change the better. Donot be afraid to do 80%. Do it twice on the trot if doing a big maintenance session.

donot over feed. A small piinch of quality dried food once a day. Donot feed once or twice a week.


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## Raws69 (9 Nov 2020)

I siphon the carpet weekly, do not overfeed the fish and actually don’t feed them at the weekend. Did have the co2 at green but noticed this is slightly blue at lights up, so will make small adjustment.


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## Siege (10 Nov 2020)

Hi @Raws69 That makes sense. BBA loves fluctuating co2.

what do you use to syphon the carpet? I just wonder if you are disturbing the nutrient rich soil too much and then not removing the waste enough (water change). That BBA is feeding on something that is settling on the stone.


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## Kezzab (10 Nov 2020)

When we talk about "fluctuating CO2", what precisely are we meaning by this? Obviously CO2 levels in the tank fluctuate wildly through the course of 24hrs. I'd assume the co2 issue, whatever that was, would impact plant health/growth and that leads to algae taking hold.

But where it's BBA on hardscape, what role does CO2 play here?

Just asking because the "CO2 fluctuation" term gets used a lot and i'm  never exactly sure about it.

K


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## Siege (10 Nov 2020)

Kezzab said:


> When we talk about "fluctuating CO2", what precisely are we meaning by this? Obviously CO2 levels in the tank fluctuate wildly through the course of 24hrs. I'd assume the co2 issue, whatever that was, would impact plant health/growth and that leads to algae taking hold.
> 
> But where it's BBA on hardscape, what role does CO2 play here?
> 
> ...



Dennis wong describes fluctuating co2 well on his gaseous exchange video.

BBA is probably the hardest algae to combat as it likes lots of things but mainly areas in the tanks where co2 fluctuates (don’t ask me why though!) combined with excess waste or rich wood. It also loves high flow areas (Maybe fluctuating co2 again?).




Ive also pasted a link to 1st video on co2 just for reference. They are really good videos!


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## dw1305 (10 Nov 2020)

Hi all,


Siege said:


> It also loves high flow areas (Maybe fluctuating co2 again?).


The same thing occurs in my low tech tanks, particularly on the lip of the maxijet powerhead venturi.






You can see the filter arrangement <"in this post"> (without the venturi fitting, it just slides over the outflow pipe), (the tank is the one in <"full disclosure">, and I still haven't done anything with it.)

I've put it down to the speed of the water flow deters snail grazing, as I've assumed that the CO2 levels should be pretty constant.

cheers Darrel


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## Raws69 (10 Nov 2020)

Just the normal tube thing.  I hold it on the carpet for a bit and it sucks up a fair amount of light brown stuff. Then move onto the next patch.


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## tiger15 (10 Nov 2020)

Kezzab said:


> Just asking because the "CO2 fluctuation" term gets used a lot and i'm  never exactly sure about it.
> 
> K


CO2 fluctuates wildly in natural lakes and low tech tanks too due to photosynthetic  uptake as described in Walstad book.  I placed zero tech planted bowls by my west facing windows that receive afternoon  sunlight.  I recorded rise of pH from 7.5 to 8.8, and decline of  CO2 from 3 to 0.1 ppm during sunlight period.  Growth is extremely slow, even with stem plants due to CO2 limitation.  Yet I have never encountered red algae (BBA), but have to deal with green thread algae (spiryogyra, Cladophorus) from time to time.


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## Raws69 (11 Nov 2020)

Right here's my ph profile. I did notice the drop checker was blue at lights on so made minor change to the rate.  what does the data tell me?
,


8.007.78.307.7Co2 on9.007.19.307.110.006.910.307.011.007.111.307.0Lights on ramping up12.007.0Lights at 70%Checker at blue, made slight adjustment12.306.91.006.91.306.82.006.82.306.73.006.73.306.74.006.74.306.75.006.75.306.76.006.76.306.7Co2 off7.006.9Lights ramping down7.307.0Lights off

.


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## Kezzab (11 Nov 2020)

Hi, read this https://www.2hraquarist.com/blogs/choosing-co2-why/the-wrong-way-to-read-the-ph-kh-chart and this https://www.2hraquarist.com/blogs/choosing-co2-why/how-to-push-the-limits-of-co2-safely
Basically you arent quite achieving a 1PH drop befor3 your lights come on, so your tank co2 level may be sub-optimal (or to put it another way, not at the maximum level you can get away with before it harms your fish).


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## Kezzab (11 Nov 2020)

If your plant growth is healthy and vigorous then it's probably not the thing that is causing your algae problems.
Although there may be other views on that (and noting the earlier point about BBA).


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## Mr.Shenanagins (12 Nov 2020)

I’m going to attest to this. When my tank started, the ONLY source of BBA infestation was my spiderwood. Plants, rocks, substrate, all fine and no effect. This leads me to believe that the dissolving organics from the wood was the perfect food source for my BBA to thrive, which it initially did. For me, blasting with Excel did absolutely nothing. Again, I think the reason for this was the constant food source from the wood. It was not until I got an army of nerite snails, who almost immediately ravaged the spiderwood, that I noticed a decline in BBA. If I look hard enough, there are minuscule spots here and there that are struggling to survive, but they are not reproducing causing any problems so I don’t care and are out of sight. You really can’t underestimate a cleanup crew.


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## Raws69 (12 Nov 2020)

My bba is just on the stone edges. I’ve pulled these out to treat with excel just waiting to see if this solves the issue.


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## Raws69 (15 Nov 2020)

Right well, the stones have had two doses of excel whilst out of the tank, to no affect.  Have now tried to scrub the algae off with a very diluted bleach/water mixture.  Fingers crossed.


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## Tankless (17 Nov 2020)

Boiling the rocks in a bucket will kill the BBA. It will turn white and then disappear after a week or so back in the tank. 

I think I had the same issue as Mr Shenanigans. My tank didn't have bba in its early days however over time I decided to increase the quantity over manzanita a lot. Since then I've had issues with BBA. It seems to love to grow on the wood. After 7 months of neglect there wasn't much further bba growth. In this period I neglected the water changes. Maybe the wood stopped decaying as I noticed that there was less peeling off.


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