# Substrate with additives v complete substrate



## Paul195 (2 Sep 2014)

Hi

I will be dosing dry salts as per EI with pressurized C02, good flow and circulation.

I know that it is not necessary to have a nutritious substrate as the plants can take their nutrients from the water column, but if I'm away for a long weekend I'd like to know the plants were fed sufficiently. 

I don't want to spend megabucks on these complete substrate products if the advantages are not outweighed compared to a substrate with additives.

So, how much more effective are complete substrates than an inert gravel which has had a good helping of the correct additives ?

Cheers 

Paul

P.S  If I were to use additives, how do I choose which ones ? Is there a 'standard' or 'best' choice ?


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## nickmcmechan (2 Sep 2014)

Soil capped with sand?


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## viktorlantos (2 Sep 2014)

All depend on what is your goal. For example if you're not using high light why would you use EI?
If there would not be carpeting plants or any plants in the soil then why a substrate would be needed?
If you're away frequently on long weekends then why would you go on a speedie growth way?



So many questions. EI is really not required if you're on a safe side (low light, slow growth way).
And in this case you have more room with the substrate too.

But if your goal is to have a bushy carpeted tank, a full nature aquarium in 2-3 months, then you need all stuff to support this growth speed.

With EI a missing weekend is not really an issue.
But having a lot of demanding root feeder plants would not be happy with high light setups and only gravel system even with EI.


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## Paul195 (2 Sep 2014)

Thanks for your replies

I am not the sort who wants to set up a tank for 4-6 months and then re-scape it. My goal is to create a tank for the medium to long term (perhaps 1-3 years) which has an array of healthy bushy plants and is a spectacle in my room.

On the other hand, I don't want growth to be so fast and vigorous that it requires constant attention, so I have opted to go for a med-high tech system - High lighting but with the ability to dim to med-high levels (eg. 2 - 2.5wpg), Pressurized C02 but at med-high bubble rate, and slightly reduced EI dosing regime, water change every week or 10 days.

I won't be away regularly on weekends, I'm just thinking about holidays or family events etc.



> a lot of demanding root feeder plants would not be happy with high light setups and only gravel system


I figure it's always going to be best to have some ferts in the substrate, but based on my goals above I am wondering if an inert substrate with some additives, or a soil / sand option as nick has suggested would be viable options...

Cheers


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## ceg4048 (2 Sep 2014)

Viktor, EI does not really care how much light you have or consequently, how much growth rate you want/have. 
If the nutrient demand is low due to low light/low CO2 then the dosing can easily be adjusted down to suit.
If the nutrient demand is high then EI also supports this goal.
Too many people have this idea that EI is only for crazed lunatics who demand maximum growth rate, but in fact, EI and PMDD were developed as a result of widespread malnutrition. It's goal was never to maximize growth rate. The real goal was to maximize plant health, because people were always seemingly transfixed by over-the-top lighting and EI is a cheap and easy way to support that growth rate demand. Since the growth rate is controlled by light and CO2 the nutrient loading can always be adjusted....always.

Having said all that, the true value of a complete substrate such as Amazonia is always overlooked. People only focus on the nutrient content but folks who are constantly sticking their hand in the substrate to rearrange quickly discover that Amazonia is easy on the hands - and it looks nice, which is important for an aquascape, right? It's my favorite substrate but if one cannot afford it then one has to make due with a substitue such as fortifying inert substrates with  soil/compost as mentioned by nick, or with something easy such as Osmocote.

It's very easy to pimp inert substrates. You can even make NPK ice cubes using your EI powders and then push them deep in the sediment at strategic locations. This is not a big deal people. If you can afford Amazonia then definitely get it. If you can't then pimp your substrate, ghetto style.

Cheers,


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## Paul195 (2 Sep 2014)

Well, I have spent a lot of my cash already on other parts of the system (tank, cabinet, C02 components, external heater, lily pipes, Filter etc etc) which I feel are all more important so my substrate is going to get pimped big time


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## viktorlantos (2 Sep 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> Viktor, EI does not really care how much light you have or consequently, how much growth rate you want/have.
> If the nutrient demand is low due to low light/low CO2 then the dosing can easily be adjusted down to suit.



I agree, but i often see people took the general EI way. And this adjustment is missing if the nutrient demand is much lower.
For example no CO2, low light tank, but EI. For a beginner this isn't clear how much to dose with the EI type of fertilizers this way.
On the top of that when we see only almost hard scape tanks with 1 pot of plant, like 2 percent plant coverage, but they dose EI.


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## ceg4048 (2 Sep 2014)

Yeah mate, I'll have to accept some of the blame for confusion on the non-CO2 tanks. I don't spend a lot of time with the low tech crowd. If you do get questions in your shop or if you want to provide the information then you might want to use this basic non-CO2 EI template:

Barr's standard non-CO2 dosing goes something like this:

Add about 1/8 teaspoon of KNO3 per 20USG (80L) once a week or once every two weeks.
Add about 1/32 teaspoon of KH2PO4 per 20USG once a week or once every two weeks.
Add about 1/32 teaspoon Trace per 20USG once a week or once every two weeks or, alternatively, about 1/4 teaspoon per 20USG of Seachem Equilibrium or other popular remineralizing agent once every week or two.

If they prefer grams for their mix then just use the rule-of-thumb 6 grams per teaspoon.
Naturally, "non-CO2" also means non-Excel/Easycarbo/equivalent etc....

Cheers,


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## Paul195 (7 Sep 2014)

I think I'm going to go for a black substrate or a mix of black and coral sand.
I've come up with a few options to 'pimp my substrate' !

1) Miracle gro slow release + Innert sand or gravel (+root tabs or NPK ice cubes as necessary)
2) Miracle gro slow release + mix of Eco-complete + innert gravel
3) JBL aquabasis + Innert sand or gravel (+root tabs or NPK ice cubes as necessary)
4) JBL aquabasis + mix of Eco-complete + innert gravel


A few questions...

- Would any of my substrate options above be unsuitable for shrimps ?

Went down to the garden centre, they had three types of miracle gro slow release fertiliser :-




 

 

 

- If I went with substrate option 1) or 2) above, which of these would be the best choice ?

 - If I were to use sand 0.5 - 1mm grain size across the whole base of the tank rather than gravel (2-3mm grain size) would this have any negative effect on the roots of the plants? I quite like watching shrimps throwing small grains around


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## sciencefiction (7 Sep 2014)

From your options above I wouldn't do any myself. I totally disliked JBL aquabasis plus as a base, waste of money.
The best substrate is natural top soil from the garden centre, free of compost/manure, peat, chemical additives, etc.., it's normally the cheapest one. Don't put any nutrients in the soil. It has plenty enough and has high CEC ability to capture any unused stuff from the water column. Just have an inch of it capped with substrate of your choice. Cheap as chips and as effective as ADA Amazonia.

The advantage of having kept low tech tanks is that one learns to read the plants and see what they need rather than automatically pumping an EI formula and having no idea what a nutrient deficiency looks like.


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## Paul195 (7 Sep 2014)

I will be dosing an EI scheme on the tank so the plants will never have a nutrient deficiency. I want to choose the best budget option to supply some nutrients to the roots to allow a bit more leeway if I forget to dose or if I am away.
I currently have a low tech dirt tank but want to move away from that to something that creates less of a mess when replanting or moving.


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## sciencefiction (7 Sep 2014)

Well, JBL aquabasis plus is as dirty as any dirt so it will make a mess. Maybe something like TMC nutrasoil would be better, without a cap.


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## Paul195 (7 Sep 2014)

I guess what I'm really after is something like akadama with high CEC, but black. I reckon I need around 25L of substrate so TMC soil is not a budget option.


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## sciencefiction (7 Sep 2014)

Paul195 said:


> I guess what I'm really after is something like akadama with high CEC, but black. I reckon I need around 25L of substrate so TMC soil is not a budget option.



Seachem Flourite black?

Edit: Not that cheap either it appears but it's the only black non-soil clay substrate I can think of.
There won't be cheap options in black that don't make a mess and have high CEC.


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## Paul195 (7 Sep 2014)

I think I'm going to use a base layer capped with gravel where the plants will be, and then just sand in the unplanted areas. 

Can anyone recommend a base layer product which wont cloud the water too much or have too much negative impact if disturbed ? 

Also I was hoping to get some help with my questions above...

- Would a substrate option like this be ok for shrimps ?
- If I opted to use slow release ferts, which of the miricle gro products would be best ?

Many thanks

Cheers


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## nickmcmechan (7 Sep 2014)

I wouldn't use miracle gro due to the additives. I have john innes no3 from Westland in one tank and Westland aquatic Compost in another. There are tannins for a couple days after setup,but they soon disappear

When I replant I get no more cloudiness than I would with any other substrate

Fine with shrimps, I have amanos, cherries, bee shrimp, bamboo


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## Lindy (10 Sep 2014)

I've had my amazonia for around 19mths. I can pull plants up, replant and generally make a mess that is gone in no time. It reallt is great stuff so if you are goinf to have planted areas with the rest sand then you'd be better just with amazonia in the planted areas. Or black tmc nutrasoil.  Worth it in the long run.


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