# Battling algae!



## Miss Pennyapple (1 Jan 2016)

Hi all, new to the forum and looking for some advice please on my planted tropical setup and its algae issues!

Here are the tank stats;

Tropical tank setup about 6 months ago, fishless cycled and now home to 10 Rummy Nose Tetras.
165L AquaOne.
Lighting is 70w total and lighting period is 5 1/2  hours a day on a timer.
Tank is moderately planted but the plants haven't been doing so well recently and its all looking much less lush than when it was originally set up! 
I dose with Tropica micro ferts once a week as per bottle, NPK twice a week (5ml each time) and Easycarbo every other day (3ml each time).

I've been battling several types of algae for months now. Originally it was staghorn after the tank cycled so I started a regular NPK ferts schedule and that algae disappeared. Then came the BBA! I wasn't adding carbon at this point so started adding Easycarbo to try to combat the BBA and it's certainly cut it back and its not as bad as it was, but some still remains. But since adding the liquid carbon a whole new algae is taking over - green hair algae. It's about a cm or two in length and has covered many plant leaves in a soft fuzz. It affects both old and new plant leaves but not the rocks or filter casing etc. 

Looking for any advice or help you knowledgable guys can offer please! The tank used to be lush and plants doing well but over the months the Amazon swords have been plagued by algae and although they put out new leaves all the time the plants never seem to look much healthier! The Lobelias and Ludwigia I added a few months back have slowly disintegrated and I'm about the throw them out they look so sorry for themselves! I'm off to aquatics shop tomorrow to buy a whole new load of plants in an effort to try to beat the algae and make the tank look fresher again. I think I'm also going to take off all the old Amazon sword leaves and start with just the new leaves to see if this helps the plants.

Do you guys think I should increase NKP and micro ferts? Is lighting too much/too little maybe? Looking forward to any feedback! Can't seem to upload photos at the moment - uploading jpgs but keep getting error message about the file extension?? Thanks very much.


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## Miss Pennyapple (1 Jan 2016)

Figured out why couldn't upload images! Here they are.

The tank today;




 

Close up of hair algae;



 

How the tank looked once I'd cycled it and added the fish about 6 months ago;


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## rebel (2 Jan 2016)

Looking good esp at the start.

I don't think you have enough substrate for those swords. Add some more to give it enough space for roots. Then add some root tabs near each plant. Your ferts appear to ok but probably don't really need that much. Perhaps could be halved. Water change weekly. Reduce light slightly, say 10%.

You could use algae exit to kill that green algae but use carefully and I would suggest an air stone while in use.

What are those two cylindrical things? Internal filters?.

What did you do with crinums?


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## Miss Pennyapple (2 Jan 2016)

Hi there, thanks so much for the reply.

Interesting that you think I'm dosing too much ferts. I hadn't even thought of that. So you think I should reduce ferts? I was going to try increasing NPK to 3 times a week to see what effect that had. I live in a very soft water area and nitrate out the tap is 0, so the tank nitrate is very low naturally. I was concerned that plants weren't getting anywhere near enough Nitrate. When the tank was cycling and therefore had high ammonia and nitrate the plants were thriving! But obviously with fish in now, any ammonia is bad and nitrates need to be kept in check too. Such a balancing act!

The Crinum was doing so well but when the BBA struck it just was covered in such a thick layer of it I gave up trying to save it and chucked it in the bin. I would like to get another one but worry I will encounter the same issue!

I was wondering about root tabs, thanks for the suggestion. How quickly do root tabs break down? I gravel vac the substrate thoroughly each week so would worry about disturbing any root tabs and causing problems with the water quality.

Thinking back, when the tank was cycling and the plants thriving I wasn't adding any carbon, just micro ferts, and there was no BBA or any other algae issues. Why can't it be that simple again?! Lol!

There are two internal filters, yeah - Eheim Biopowers. I do a 50% water change each week or so.


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## dw1305 (2 Jan 2016)

Hi all, 





Miss Pennyapple said:


> I gravel vac the substrate thoroughly each week


I'd probably stop doing this. You don't have a huge fish load, and some mulm in the substrate is likely to make conditions more suitable for plant growth. Have a look at <"Skeptical Aquarist: Substrate">.

If you don't object to them some snails may help with the algae. I have Red Rams-horns and Malaysian Trumpet Snails.

cheers Darrel


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## Miss Pennyapple (2 Jan 2016)

Hi Darrel, thanks for your reply. 

I used to keep goldfish for a long time so was used to vacuuming the gravel really well every week without fail! Keeping tropicals and a properly planted tank is new to me so I guess I'm still sticking with old habits and over-cleaning the gravel maybe? I'm concerned the gravel would become anaerobic if I didn't vac each week.

I don't think I can keep snails - I have snails at the moment in the tank that were hitchhikers from plants, but they don't last long as the water is so soft and acidic (pH 5.5 / 5). Would the snails you suggest cope in such soft water?


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## rebel (2 Jan 2016)

I agree with Darrel. Chuck in root tabs and don't gravel vac. 

If you are truly keen to find what's going on, then change one thing at a time and observe the plants carefully.


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## rebel (2 Jan 2016)

Btw root tabs can last up to a few months. It depends on a a lot of factors.


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## Miss Pennyapple (2 Jan 2016)

Thank you - I bought some new plants today so plan to cut back all the old algae covered leaves from the existing swords and add the new plants. I will try reducing the carbon to maybe three doses a week to start with and see how that goes. Then if that doesn't help I will try increasing NPK dose to three times a week. Then try to reduce the lighting etc etc and hope something works!

Also just realised from reading this forum it's not a good idea to dose micro and macro at the same time? I've been doing this so will try adding micro a day after the first macro dose! The things you learn! 

I added an Alternanthera Lilacina and Alternanthera Rosaefolia a few months back and I'm surprised they haven't died to be honest! They are still quite red in colour but not growing a whole lot.


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## MedicMan (2 Jan 2016)

Keep in mind, amazon swords take up LOTS of nitrates and also, are sensitive to liquid CO2 products as I recall.


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## dw1305 (3 Jan 2016)

Hi all,





Miss Pennyapple said:


> Keeping tropicals and a properly planted tank is new to me so I guess I'm still sticking with old habits and over-cleaning the gravel maybe?


Yes, it is a bit different in a planted tank, because a the plants are providing a lot of the biological filtration for you. The advantage of plants is that they are both removing fixed nitrogen (NH4+ & NO3-) from the water column and they are providing a much larger surface for microbial colonisation, and a lot of this is happening in the rhizosphere, the zone surrounding the plant roots. Because you have the rooted plants the chances of a build up of H2S etc is negligible, and some patches of substrate where reducing conditions exist would be to your plants advantage.

If you look at the Amazon Swords (_Echinodorus bleheri_) in the two photographs, the plants are actually smaller in the later photo. This is probably because you are removing algae effected leaves at a quicker rate than the plant is producing them. If you keep doing this the plants will eventually just dwindle away. 





Miss Pennyapple said:


> don't think I can keep snails - I have snails at the moment in the tank that were hitchhikers from plants, but they don't last long as the water is so soft and acidic (pH 5.5 / 5). Would the snails you suggest cope in such soft water?


 OK I think snails are probably a non starter. Malaysian Trumpet Snails might survive, but they won't eat algae from the plant leaves. 





Miss Pennyapple said:


> Also just realised from reading this forum it's not a good idea to dose micro and macro at the same time? I've been doing this so will try adding micro a day after the first macro dose!


It is  good practice, but because you have soft, acid water the nutrients you add will remain in solution as ions. If you have harder water, then you will get problems with insoluble phosphate (zinc phosphate, calcium phosphate etc) and hydroxide (iron hydroxide) compounds forming. Plants can only take up nutrients as ions.   

I like a floating plant, there are a <"number of advantages to these">. Their growth isn't CO2 limited (they have access to ~400 ppm aerial CO2) and they shade the leaves of slower growing plants, reducing the rate of algae growth. I've got plenty of spares if you want to go down that route. 



 

cheers Darrel


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## Miss Pennyapple (3 Jan 2016)

Thanks Darrel for that detailed reply. Really interesting. 

Yeah, I've been removing the most badly affected and older leaves from the Amazon swords as I thought that was for the best and would encourage new growth. There is lots of new growth on the swords but new leaves are slow to grow big! I also tend to uproot the swords every few weeks so I can clean all the algae off them! This is probably not good either but If I didn't do this then the plants would be covered in algae and unsavable! 

Ok, so maybe me adding micro and macro at the same time is OK since I have such acidic water? Phew! I might still try dosing micro, macro and carbon on different days. Do you think that would be beneficial?

Is there a type of root tab you guys recommend?


MedicMan- I didn't realise swords were sensitive to liquid carbon. Thanks for that.


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## GHNelson (3 Jan 2016)

The above are the root balls I usually use!
These need to be added reasonably deeply or the will make a mess near the top of the substrate!
They become very soft quickly!
Cheers
hoggie


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## Miss Pennyapple (4 Jan 2016)

Hi all, thanks for your help so far - much appreciated.

Here's my plan for trying to deal with the hair algae tomorrow and try to refresh the tank - feedback and advice gratefully received! 

50% water change.
Might add a spray bar to one of the internal filters to increase surface agitation.
Remove the Amazon swords and dispose the leaves worst affected by BBA, clean off as much hair algae from the remaining leaves as I can.
Plant 3 new Echinodorus Ozelot plus some elodea I bought as a cheap plant for use in quarantine tank.
Reduce lighting to 5 hours a day from 5 1/2 hours a day.
Add NPK twice a week (5ml each dose)
Add Tropica micro ferts once a week
Add EasyCarbo twice a week (2.5ml each dose)

Does this sound like an OK plan??

What is the cause of most green hair algae?


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## Andy D (4 Jan 2016)

I would also consider the position of the filters and maybe even removing 1. 

With the outlets pointing in different directions they may be causing conflicting currents rather than a nice circular flow.


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## Miss Pennyapple (4 Jan 2016)

Ok, I've done some reading on the site and am going to try adding spray bars to both filters tomorrow and point them in the same direction across the tank.


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## dw1305 (5 Jan 2016)

Hi all, 





Miss Pennyapple said:


> What is the cause of most green hair algae?


The green algae are physiologically (in terms of chlorophyll, pigments etc) pretty close to all the moss, ferns and higher plants we want to grow. Together they all form the clade <"Viridiplantae">. 

One of the outcomes of this is that if conditions are suitable for the plants you want, they are suitable for the plants (green algae) you don't want. 





Miss Pennyapple said:


> Remove the Amazon swords and dispose the leaves worst affected by BBA, clean off as much hair algae from the remaining leaves as I can. Plant 3 new Echinodorus Ozelot plus some elodea I bought as a cheap plant for use in quarantine tank.





Miss Pennyapple said:


> Yeah, I've been removing the most badly affected and older leaves from the Amazon swords as I thought that was for the best and would encourage new growth. There is lots of new growth on the swords but new leaves are slow to grow big! I also tend to uproot the swords every few weeks so I can clean all the algae off them! This is probably not good either but If I didn't do this then the plants would be covered in algae and unsavable!


 Personally I think you just have to leave the tank to achieve some form of stability, or you are never going to be a in a situation where the plants grow, and you are continually going to be locked into a cycle of discarding old, and buying new, plants. 

Some more plant mass is definitely a good idea. Because of your soft water I think either _Ceratopteris thalictroides_ or _Cambomba caroliniana _would be a better option than _Elodea (_it likes harder water_), _and a floating plant the best option.

cheers Darrel


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## Miss Pennyapple (6 Jan 2016)

Hi, so I did my usual 50% weekly water change yesterday and tackled the planting! I removed all the old, damaged and algae ridden leaves from the existing swords. I added the new sword plants and the elodea, which I'd already bought so thought I might as well chuck it in and see how it goes! As usual, have read conflicting info on the www about elodea and its pH tolerance so will see how it fairs in pH 5.5! Thanks for the Cambomba tip Darrel - will look at getting some of this too to fill out the back of the tank. 

I did a light gravel vac and didn't really vac where the swords are planted, so that the gravel would retain some mulm and nutrients hopefully. I added spray bars to both internal filters and pointed them in the same direction across the tank. I'm a bit concerned now though that this new flow is a bit much for the tetras! I've turned down the flow today but still worried it's stressing them out trying to swim against it!

I dosed NPK  yesterday and micro ferts today, and will dose Easycarbo tomorrow, in an effort to see how dosing separately on different days affects plant health and algae growth. Here's a pic of the tank now;


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## AndyMcD (10 Jan 2016)

Miss Pennyapple said:


> Add EasyCarbo twice a week (2.5ml each dose)



Miss Pennyapple, I'm under the impression that Easycarbo breaks down within 48 hours. I thought it was 24 hours, but the Flourish Excel website suggests you can dose every other day. I think the active ingredient in both is Glutaraldehyde. 

My point is, to avoid fluctuating carbon levels, perhaps it would be worth considering splitting your dosage into four or more equal doses per week.


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## Andy Thurston (10 Jan 2016)

AndyMcD said:


> Miss Pennyapple, I'm under the impression that Easycarbo breaks down within 48 hours. I thought it was 24 hours, but the Flourish Excel website suggests you can dose every other day. I think the active ingredient in both is Glutaraldehyde.
> 
> My point is, to avoid fluctuating carbon levels, perhaps it would be worth considering splitting your dosage into four or more equal doses per week.




Personally I would be adding 6ml per day for a tank that size, possibly even more when you have a larger plant mass


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen (14 Feb 2016)

How are things going, Miss P?

I confess I've only just read this thread, but here are my suggestions:

Stop uprooting your swords! You really need to leave them alone to establish their root systems; they won't like being disturbed so frequently. Cleaning algae off the leaves in this way is counter-productive because you're not allowing the plants to get properly established and grow strongly. You need to accept that you will see some algae for a while, until you hit upon the solution to the problem - and then the algae will pack its bags and disappear without being physically removed.
Stop vacuuming your gravel so frequently! The substrate shouldn't be 'clean' - it should have a certain amount of detritus in it. In fact the vacuuming may well be releasing small amounts of NH₃/NH₄ into the water column, which the algae may be using. With the low bioload in your tank, I reckon you'd only need to vacuum once a month maximum, and even then I'd only do half the tank each time (swapping to the other half next time). And don't vacuum in the immediate vicinity of your swords' roots.
More plants! I think you could have even more plants than there are in your last picture. Try to use them to hide the filters.
I think your light level and photoperiod are fine. I wouldn't change anything there.
Your algae problem isn't all that bad. From the pictures you've shared, it doesn't look like the algae is anywhere near enough to hinder the plants' growth, so personally I wouldn't be removing any leaves from the swords unless they're really badly infested or dying. If the leaves you're removing are still photosynthesising and contributing to the strength of the plants, and not rotting down and contributing to pollution in the tank, then by removing them you are weakening the plants and tipping the balance in favour of the algae.


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## Miss Pennyapple (16 Feb 2016)

Hi there, thanks for checking in to see how I'm getting on. Appreciate it.

Yes, I know - uprooting the sword plants is bad! I'm trying to not uproot them but sometimes the temptation to do so in order to remove the BBA is overwhelming!! 

I have had to remove the elodea as it was rotting away from the bottom of the stems - assume it was due to the low pH and softness of the water in the tank. Am going to order some more new plants tomorrow to fill up the gaps and add some height. 

Can I ask if you think my ferts regime is ok? 

Water change every 7-10 days.

5ml NPK added twice a week.

Micro ferts added once a week.

3ml Easy Carbo added twice a week.

When I add more plants do you think it's worth upping the carbon or NPK dose? The four original standard Amazon swords from which I removed a lot of algae covered leaves months back are putting out new leaves but very slowly. The three Ozelot swords I added a couple of months ago are doing really well and growing lots of new leaves, with little sign of deficiencies, but their roots are still small.

I'm going to be adding 12 Purple Emperor Tetras to the tank soon.


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen (17 Feb 2016)

Over the last five or six years of being a terrestrial gardener, I've learnt an important lesson: take heed of what grows well in your garden, and grow more of the same!

So the first thing I'd do in your position is get more of those Ozelot swords. They look good in your tank, and if they're doing well then that's great. I'd plant them fairly close together to form a 'raft' of it in front of your filters. Really go to town if you can afford it; you could accommodate at least another three in front of your filters, and perhaps even another three somewhere on the other side to make another raft over there. In a spacious tank like yours, plants look best in fairly close groups with spaces in between, rather than dotted about randomly.

One thing worth bearing in mind is that plants like swords, cryptocorynes etc are good at storing nutrients, and can grow strongly for quite a while using up their stored reserves of nutrients - and if that store isn't being replenished then they'll eventually run out, hit a brick wall and stop growing or even start to die. So don't forget to give your swords some substrate fertiliser in the form of balls or tablets pushed into the substrate close to the plants. Otherwise, I think your fertilisation seems fine to me.

Have you considered getting some algae-eating fish? Otocinclus are great and you could easily keep 3-5 of them in your tank (they're much happier in groups). Not 100% sure that they'll eat hair-type algae though; someone may be able to advise. Or Siamese Algae Eaters, which eat a wider variety of algae and a couple of them would do well. Probably steer clear of plecs, which may eat your swords. Whichever you choose, you'd need to supplement their diet with algae wafers because they'll run out of naturally-occurring algae.


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## dw1305 (17 Feb 2016)

Hi all,





Dr Mike Oxgreen said:


> I've learnt an important lesson: take heed of what grows well in your garden, and grow more of the same!


I think that is pretty sound advice. 

cheers Darrel


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## Miss Pennyapple (21 Feb 2016)

Help! The green hair algae is getting worse in my tank lately! The only thing I've changed is the flow direction - I added spray bars about 6 weeks ago to try to ensure all of the plants were getting ferts and to create a circular flow around the tank. I really don't know what else I can do to try and combat this long hair algae. I noticed today it's started to grow on the spray bars now too as well as all over the plant leaves! It seems to be enjoying the increased flow! Argh! I remove as much as I can with every water change. Any further thoughts and advice would be really appreciated. I'm still getting some BBA growing on some leaves, a bit on the filters and a line of it along a back corner of the glass, near the filter intake, but it's not as bad as it used to be before I started adding liquid carbon.

I've got some plants to add tomorrow so my plant list will be;

3 x Amazon Sword Ozelot
4 x Amazon Sword Bleheri
2 x Ceratopteris Thalictroides
1 x Hygrophila Siamensis
I also have 3 bunches of Cabomba which I could add but was planning on leaving those in my quarantine tank (currently empty of fish) for now......unless you guys think it would help the main tank if I added them?

Thanks all!


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