# The expense of hard water....



## Will Ingram (5 Jan 2010)

Hello Board, 
I live in London, to those of you not in London that means limescale on EVERYTHING, 
alkaline tapwater (average 7.9 but generally around 8.3) and a hardness of 200-300mg/L total.
  This does not lend itself to beautiful fish (although all the shops keep their stock in tapwater) 
and I have started using RO water mixed 70: 30 with tapwater, this has lowered the pH to about 7.4 (it will prob. not get much lower) and the hardness is coming down.

My stock is some harlequin rasboras, black neons, celestial pearl danios and pakistani loaches, some echinodorus and aponogenton plants and a bit of floating Salvinia to give the fish some cover which they live, no CO2 but an LED light to keep the tank bright. At the moment I am doing 30% water changes a week, costing me Â£2.25 in RO  which does add up, 

Are there any fish suitable for such hard water- I was hoping to keep lampeyes and swordtails in London tapwater, would this work? Swapping the plants for vallis I guess.


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## Fred Dulley (5 Jan 2010)

All the fish you have at the moment would be fine in hard water. I've bred Celestial Pearl Danios in hard water. Most fish in the trade have adapted to harder water.
IMO, there are a few exceptions. I won't keep Rams in hard water nor Discus. But that's me.


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## chris1004 (5 Jan 2010)

Hi Will

If your paying Â£2.25 for RO water (I presume per 25Litres from a fish shop) why not consider buying your own RO filter? For about Â£80 you can get a 4 stage filter capable of producing 75 gallons a day of RO water. Of course there are some running costs which depend entirely on how much water you draw off.

Regards, Chris.


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## CeeJay (5 Jan 2010)

Hi Will Ingram


			
				Fred Dulley said:
			
		

> l the fish you have at the moment would be fine in hard water.


I'll second that   
Just for your info. I'm on the Thames water supply too. 
In my hi tech I have harlequins, rummynose tetras and shrimp (cherry & green) and these are in Thames finest, straight out of the tap   
Plants don't do too bad in it either   .


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## chris1004 (6 Jan 2010)

Hi,

I think its always worth bearing in mind that whilst most fish can tolerate hard water conditions its not ideal. I think anyone who goes to the trouble and expense of giving there soft water loving fish soft water to live in should be applauded.

Regards, Chris.


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## James Marshall (6 Jan 2010)

chris1004 said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> I think its always worth bearing in mind that whilst most fish can tolerate hard water conditions its not ideal. I think anyone who goes to the trouble and expense of giving there soft water loving fish soft water to live in should be applauded.
> 
> Regards, Chris.



I totaly agree Chris, it is always best to provide ideal conditions for the livestock we keep. That having said, i have been keeping fish in London tap water (GH 18) for many years now, and have even managed to successfuly breed wild Rams in it.

Cheers,
James


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## Will Ingram (6 Jan 2010)

Thanks all, 
I guess the majority are against me here. An RO unit is far too expensive, 
though I might start using 50:50 RO and tapwater instead to save money (makes measuring it out easier), then gradually reduce it.
   On the plus side, I have noticed that there are much less scum lines and limescale on the hood and tank.
     Thanks for all your info

P.S. I remember working in an aquarium shop in London (now closed good riddance) with banks of undergravel-filtered tanks, emptying the water out and slowly filling them back up with raw tapwater at 15degC or less, into tropical tanks to freshen them up. 
Turning the tapwater hose on really fast and making the fancy goldfish spin around in a  little whirlpool in their tank was my ex-colleagues favourite trick. 
Guess it'sall about peace of mind (always the most expensive bit).
Will


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## Iliveinazoo (6 Jan 2010)

Your plants will reduce the hardness of the tankwater over time plus you could help it along by adding peat or some other material that will naturally soften the water.


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## Will Ingram (6 Jan 2010)

Thanks. Yes Peat will soften the water but the way London water is (extremely hard, 18 DH as some people have mentioned) it is cheaper and less hassle to use RO, plus it takes out the nitrates.


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## Ed Seeley (6 Jan 2010)

While I use RO water for all my tropical fish (including my Lake Tangyikan cichlids), you really don't need it for normal community fish unless you're breeding some of them.  I have never seen any hard, scientific evidence that fish suffer when kept in harder water than normal.  However I prefer to keep fish in water similar to their natural water if I can, but that's my choice.

Just use your tap water and they will be fine.


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## AdAndrews (6 Jan 2010)

Ed Seeley said:
			
		

> While I use RO water for all my tropical fish (including my Lake Tangyikan cichlids).



Can i ask, Why would you want to use RO for tangs? they require hard, alkaline water.


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## Ed Seeley (6 Jan 2010)

AdAndrews said:
			
		

> Ed Seeley said:
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Because RO doesn't just remove hardness and alkalinity, it removes everything, including nitrates, metals and loads of other things.  I prefer to use it for all my fish.  I add salts to add the alkalinity and hardness minerals that they require.


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## AdAndrews (6 Jan 2010)

Ed Seeley said:
			
		

> AdAndrews said:
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I get ya, thanks


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## Iliveinazoo (7 Jan 2010)

Rain water is a cheap alternative to RO water, I use it for my planted brackish puffer tank solely because of the excessive nitrates in my tap water.


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## dw1305 (8 Jan 2010)

Hi all,
I use rainwater as well, but I'm not sure I would if I lived in a city. If you can collect enough water in the winter it tends to be much cleaner (there is much less dust and particulates in the atmosphere).
cheers Darrel


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## mlgt (18 Mar 2010)

I have thought long and hard on this. I have discus and rams, however rams have breed a few times so it shows they are adaptable to hard London water.

But I will still be getting an RO unit when I move into my new flat and have a healthy balance of RO/tap water to improve the fishes wellbeing.

I have heard using peat is a also useful. Ive had friends who collect rainwater, only then to run through a longer process of filtration which to me is a pain in the rear.

For Â£80 in the long term will justify the money spent.


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## Iliveinazoo (18 Mar 2010)

mlgt said:
			
		

> I have heard using peat is a also useful. Ive had friends who collect rainwater, only then to run through a longer process of filtration which to me is a pain in the rear.



What do you mean - a longer process of filtration?  I collect mine in a water butt, heat it up to the correct temperature, add marine salt to get to SG1.003ish (brackish tank) and pour it in.


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## mlgt (19 Mar 2010)

Meaning when you collect it in a butt, wouldnt you collect any dust/dirt from the area its run off from? 
My friend collected it from the top of his shed which he put a sheet of glass on top, but even from that the water collects dust, leaves, flies etc. so he would run it through a pipe through a DIT filtration method and then collect it.

He does live near a railway track though.


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## dw1305 (19 Mar 2010)

Hi all,
I don't treat my rainwater in anyway either, I have 2 water butts connected together with a filter sponge in the downpipe on the first butt, I take the water from the second butt. I do a small volume water change every day, so I just leave what I need in the kitchen during the winter overnight to warm up, in the summer I just use it straight from the butt.

I did think about running it through an activated carbon filter, but eventually I went for the option of adding some Daphnia to the water butt. When I decant the water I need I just make sure the Daphnia are looking healthy, healthy Daphnia the water is OK, also gives "food for free". 

Daphnia are used as a bioindicator of water quality widely in the water industry.

"Once thought of as an animal of polluted waters, Daphnia have been proven to be very sensitive to poor water conditions and a number of research and industrial groups use Daphnia to test water quality. For example, they are very sensitive to halide concentration, like the chloride or fluoride in tap water, which are extremely toxic to daphnia, even more so than to fish. They are also sensitive to metal ion concentration, like sodium, potassium, magnesium and calcium, which in increased concentrations can cause immobility and death, and daphnia are extremely sensitive to copper, zinc and most dissolved toxins (e.g. dichromate ions). They are often used to monitor water quality so that only safe water is released into the environment by industry and water treatment plants. "

cheers Darrel


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## mlgt (19 Mar 2010)

Thats an interesting fact. I have been pondering setting this up myself. I will be buying a ground floor flat in which I was hoping to collect rainwater and the add some sponges to filter out any dirt.

Thanks for that info Darrel.

R


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## ghostsword (19 Mar 2010)

I actually really like this idea.. 

I will buy a water butt this weekend and leave it to fill up. 

Where would I find the daphnia? Maybe I will put some duckweed there as well...  

Really good idea..


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## dw1305 (19 Mar 2010)

Hi all,
You can buy Daphnia as live food at some LFS it doesn't matter whether it's Moinia, or D. pulex/D. magna. If you can't find any I'll have a go at posting some. 

I used to put some duckweed in the buckets I used for mosquito larvae (the mosquito needs somewhere to perch while she lays her eggs), but I kept on forgetting to clean it off regularly enough and it used to cover the whole surface, and kill of the mosquito larvae, so I use (wine bottle) corks now. The water butts are better with a lid so not suitable for duckweed, and if the water is very clean you may find the Daphnia will be very sparse, you might also have problems with acid rain, although our rainwater always has some KH (probably from limestine dust). 

Daphnia are fairly easy to culture if you are keen on breeding your fish. http://www.caudata.org/daphnia/. 

cheers Darrel


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## ghostsword (19 Mar 2010)

Many thanks.. I will follow your advice. 

Will leave the water but with a net on top, as I would not want a cat or leaves to fall into it, but want mosquitos et all to drop criters there, then once a week with a net catch whatever is there for the tank.  

I will buy daphnia at the LFS, I remember now that I have seen them for sale. 

As a kid I use to go catch daphnia at local ponds for my fish, nowadays we buy almost everything at a shop..


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## dw1305 (19 Mar 2010)

Hi all, 





> but want mosquitos et all to drop criters there, then once a week with a net catch whatever is there for the tank.


 That is what I do, I also have an allotment and when its quiet I have a trawl through everyone else water butts as well. My neighbour puts lots of Comfrey leaves in tank, and produces the most foul smelling liquid you can possibly imagine to feed his plants with, the amount of mosquito larvae in there is immense, but I've never been brave enough to feed them to the fish (although I do take them from less polluted water). 
cheers Darrel


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## mlgt (5 Apr 2010)

I wanted to ask. Ive set up a water collection on the roof of my flats and it fits a 20l bucket perfectly. 
How do I know if the water is suitable to use in my tank? how do I test this? 

It falls directly onto the lift room (Where the lift motor is) and Ive devised a small run of from the roof.

Please advise. I tested my water and its around 8.


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## mlgt (7 Apr 2010)

Ive decided to give it a try, wait for a heavy downpour for maybe 30 mins or so then put a few buckets on the guttering to collect the water. I will then filter the water for dirt/debris with a charcoal sponge and filter pad to collect the water.

If what you all say is fine then it will be fine for my discus, but I only intend to use 20l with my end of week big water change.

Im currently dosing ferts which I do a 20% water change every second day and followed by a big 60% water change on sunday. 

I will be mixing the 20l with about 40l of normal treated tap water. Will see how it goes.


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## Ed Seeley (8 Apr 2010)

Sorry for not replying earlier.  I've used rainwater a long time ago and filtered it slowly through carbon and it was fine.  Just make sure that the roof it's coming off isn't going to add anything nasty to the water (i.e. cement based tiles that harden the water or fresh roofing felt) and that you don't have any heavy industry nearby that could add things to the rain.  

I don't know how you could test for these things really as there aren't suitable test kits!


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## mlgt (8 Apr 2010)

Thanks. I will wait for a downpour first. But typical english weather its now changed to sunny and 15 degrees each day.

This means I wont be able to collect any rain water untill later as I will want at least 1 day of rain to clear out any debris and crap on the roof.

I know that the roofing felt isnt fresh, but hopefully over time I will be able to test for the ph level etc.


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## gzylo (12 Apr 2010)

Hi do not know where you buy RO water from and where someone is paying Â£80 for ro unit when here is one for Â£40 50gpd should be enough


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