# Celestial Glade - 125Ltr Low Light, Low Maintenance



## GreenNeedle (1 Jun 2008)

I thought I would start this journal earlier than normal to include my research period and maybe 'bounce' a few ideas off people before I get to the moment of truth.

The current scape (under the forest canopy) will be in residence for a couple of months until I am ready to rescape so as a reminder the setup is as follows:

Fluval 125Ltr/33USG tall tank
Tetratec Ex700 filter with glass Lily pipes
Hydor 200W external heater
Pressurised CO2 with a Rhinox 2000 diffuser
Realux T5 HO 30W Plant Grow
Arcadia T8 18W Freshwater

LIGHTING - I will be reducing the light to just using the T5HO on its own (0.9WPG) for the whole 10 hour photoperiod and just use the Arcadia to balance the colour when taking photos/when people are visiting.

FERTILISATION - I shall be returning to the PMDD+P formula which I found to be very successful previously.

SUBSTRATE - I am trying to keep the cost right down and so I am intending to use mulm - Â½" Leonardite - Previous Tropica mixed with a product called Aquagrit Underworld - topped with some 3mm Dorset gravel.

The Tropica has been in the previous scape for 9 months and as I have been water column dosing should still have some oomph in it.  I will only use half and top it up with 2kg of the Aquagrit which is clay base like the Tropica and has trace elements in it.  The trick I have up my sleeve which could all go pear shaped is that the previous setup has play sand which is quite easy to suck up through the siphon leaving the Tropica behind (already seeded of course.)

CO2 - I will be running at 2bps because I like to keep the Lily outflow permanently at the surface disturbing the surface which means that some CO2 is lost.  I shall also be using a solenoid again.

PLANTS - I shall only be buying some Cryptocoryne Parva as I will mostly be using plants from the current setup which I can separate.  They are producing runners everywhere too and with no pruning for the next 2 months should give me a lot more coverage than present.  I also have Ferns and Anubias in there to use.  I shall be removing Lotus' and Blyxia from this scape entirely.

Known species that I have are:
Crypts: Wendtii (Brown), Wendtii (Green), Undulata, Balansae (3 variants), Spiralis + some stray unknowns.

Anubias - I think they are all Barteri but I have 3 sizes 1 species has 1" leaves, 1 has Â½" leaves and the other (petite) has Â¼" leaves.

Ferns - Philippine Java Fern (This is a huge plant at the moment), Needle leaf Fern (Also huge amount of growth)

HARDSCAPE - I am removing the plum slate and Mopani caves that I have used in the last 2 scapes, I will probably start this scape with totally new rock and wood as I want to utilise more of the footprint of the tank with plants.

MY IDEA OF THE SCAPE - I want to get this scape more structure.  The last 2 were more of a scattered natural effect and using crypts has made it even more so with their runners popping up large plants at the front etc.  This time I want to start with the plants tall at the back and ascending toward the front where Parva will be the smallest.  The Anubias and Ferns will of course be on wood somewhere in the midground.

I am veering toward the redmoor style of wood but I don't want this tank to look like the ones I am always criticising for looking like Amano copies.  I want to use the wood without it being a focal point.  It will just be there to use for depth with the narrow leaf ferns and Anubias mainly and should eventually be hidden.  I may take a trip to my local nature reserve to see what I can find there before I look in fish shops.

FISH - 4 x Pitbull plecs, 4 x Bolivian Rams, 3 x Otos, 20 x Cardinal Tetra (I am going to restock the full shoal again.)  Heavy stocking but thatâ€™s what I have done since the very beginning and with the plants they all seem to get on nicely.

So there we go.  Another scape to plan for and something for me to look forward to.

Any ideas welcome (please note I'm terrible for sticking to my guns and ignoring advice. lol)

Andy


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## aaronnorth (2 Jun 2008)

*Re: Celestial Glade - 125Ltr Low Light - Low Maintenance*

I like 'under the forest canopy', i hope this will be as pleasing to the eye


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## Arana (2 Jun 2008)

*Re: Celestial Glade - 125Ltr Low Light - Low Maintenance*

Sounds good but you may want to consider an EX1200 instead of the 700  it will get you nearer to the 10x rate we would normally advise


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## GreenNeedle (2 Jun 2008)

*Re: Celestial Glade - 125Ltr Low Light - Low Maintenance*

You mean the between 5 to 10 x "we" used to advise before someone somewhere sometime dropped the 5 to ?

I have 5.6 with only half the media.  Been working fine and dandy for a long time. lol

Aaron - UTFC is a bit of a BBA fest at the mo due to me ignoring it and not doing water changes (this means not cleaning diffusor too!!!)  It is recovering but I'm getting pee'd off with having to prune all these 'slow growing, low light' plants that grow like mad under my massive 0.9WPG. He, he.

The Lotus' are definately going as they disturb the flow too much and are becoming monsters.

As a guide, my Phillipine Java Fern at present is 12 inches diameter and 18 inches tall!!!  In January I pruned it back to about 6 leaves!!

This will be much more of a low maintenance, even less light setup.

Andy


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## aaronnorth (3 Jun 2008)

*Re: Celestial Glade - 125Ltr Low Light - Low Maintenance*



> less light setup


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## GreenNeedle (3 Jun 2008)

*Re: Celestial Glade - 125Ltr Low Light - Low Maintenance*

Currently
10 hours 0.9WPG T5HO with an extra 0.6WPG T8 as a 2 hour burst in the middle

Will be
9 hours 0.9WPG T5HO (No noon burst)

I am a firm believer in the uselessness of the WPG rule when using T5 Linear or PC/CF.  I think they are applicable to at least 2x the WPG rule.  I also think that some plants labelled high light (Blyxia Japonica under 0.9WPG at present, Amazon Sword/Bacopa under 0.6WPG previously) are not actually high light plants.  I think there is a light intensty that they may need (not so much coloration) which would mean that it is the delivery of the light to the plant that matters rather than the quantity in watts above the tank!!!

Controversial hey.

Andy


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## GreenNeedle (21 Jun 2008)

*Re: Celestial Glade - 125Ltr Low Light - Low Maintenance*

After the 'washing up liquid incident' on Thursday I am now set with the task of deciding who the inhabitants of this new setup will be.  Same timeframe really. I shall rescape the tank in July/August and then stock it almost immediately.

So far I am quite fancying trying some Corys this time and C.Aeneus-Black are the ones catching my eye at the moment.  I prefer my fish in groups and therefore I am thinking of 10 of these.

I will of course be putting 5 or 6 Otos in as well.

I also want to add some Cherry shrimp into this tank.

The final piece of the jigsaw will be my mid to top dwelling shoaling fish.  Ides welcome on this but with no meat eaters in this setup I don't want any livebearers or easy breeders.  I may go for Neons or Cardinals in shoal of 20 but not made my mind up yet.

I'm quite looking forward to getting this all setup.

Andy


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## GreenNeedle (28 Jun 2008)

*Re: Celestial Glade - 125Ltr Low Light - Low Maintenance*

Due to the washing up liquid incident I will now have to replace all the fish and this has burnt a big hole in the budget for this scape therefore the gravel and fresh Tropica has now gone out the window!!!!

However I have decided that I am going to crack on with this tonight.yippee.

I have 2 new pieces of wood (pictures below)  yes it is redmoor and yes I always moan about samey samey copycats and how boring it is seing redmoor wood etc BUT with my tank being tall (20") and this wood being quite low it should look different to the usual 'branchy' ones.  These 2 pieces cost me Â£24 so I think they were a bargain and as you can see spread nicely across my tank.





I'm going to remove all the current hardscape & plants (trying to get all the roots out too) then I shall remove all the anubias and narrow fern from the current Mopani.  Then reattach it to the new wood (spraying it to keep it moist.)

Then I'm going to replace the huge Java Fern (on same bit of bogwood as it is now) which is similar in size to George's specimen that moves from tank to tank. lol  Add in the 2 pieces of wood and finally plant up the Crypts.

No Blyxia or Nympheae/Nuphar in this scape.  Just Crypts, Ferns and Anubias.

I have got the Tetratec working again (hit and miss when closing the lids on these filters wether you get a seal or not!!!.)  Due to me noticing my Fluval3+ which was in for 4 days gave much more flow even though it is rated 700lph same as the Tetratec I have added my Maxijet MP400 powerhead to the left of the tank aiming at the stream of CO2 bubbles.  It doesn't alter the direction of the current as it is directed in the same line.  Just gives it a second push in the same direction.

Looking forward to doing this now.  No plan for the plants, I'll just lay them out on the table and stick them in where I see fit.  More structured this time tall at the back, small at the front.

I have decided on the fish being 4 x Otos (maybe Zebra Otos if I can get them), 8 x black corys and 10+ Thick Band Zebra Rasbora (Microrasbora erythromicron)  These will be the stars of the show and are similar in size to galaxys (if I can find them) pic below




I will add the fish in July/August as and when I spot them so this scape can be blasted with CO2 from now until then allowing for all the current crypts to 'bush up' a little.

Will add some completed pictures tomorrow.

Andy


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## aaronnorth (28 Jun 2008)

*Re: Celestial Glade - 125Ltr Low Light - Low Maintenance*

sounds like a plan!    Hope it all goes well


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## GreenNeedle (29 Jun 2008)

Well after the troubles of the Tetratec filter's constant leaks and the washing up liquid incident here it is and I have to say I have impressed myself at last (about time)

These are the plants that I removed last night:



Top left to right
Cryptocoryne Undulata, Cryptocryne Spiralis (large version - speckled), Needle Leaf Java Fern, Anubias Barteri ver Nana (1 inch leaves), Anubias Barteri ver Nana 'Petite' (Â¼ inch leaves)

Centre left to right
Cryptocoryne Wendtii Brown, Cryptocoryne Balansae Sp, Cryptocoryne Balansae 'crispulata', Anubias Barteri Sp (2 inch leaves)

Bottom left to right
Cryptocoryne Wendtii Green, Cryptocoryne Spiralis Sp (smaller version - non speckled), Phillipine Java Fern.

The picture doesn't show just how much actually came out of the tank!!  I pruned and discarded any bad leaves etc leaving me about 2/3rds of the quantity on this table.  It would've looked much better from the left hand side but this is a 5ft table and I couldn't get a decent pic of it whilst showing as much as I could in this picture.

As usual I have done things that others wouldn't.  I couldn't soak the redmoor wood for 3 weeks as I have a family that needs the bath and nothing else large enough to contain it (and I didn't want to wait 3 weeks) therefore it is soaking 'in situ'.  You are now expecting that I have created a 'floating' hardscape.  Well you can see the result below.

Also with the Tetratec playing up I have been using my old Fluval3+.  I managed to get the Tetratec working again but I have also left the Fluval3+ in and it blows the CO2 about perfectly as you will also see below.  This means I have 2 filters with a rating of 700lph (I know realistically this is reduced drastically) so a total maximum flow rating of 1400lph.  When I get the fish in a month or two I will replace the Fluval with my maxijet MP400 which is much smaller and inconspicuos but until then I may as well make use of the extra filtration I have on hand.

As expected with 're-using' the existing substrate the water is still a little cloudy due to each plant that gets pulled through the sand barrier having some clay stuck to its roots. The pics below show the cloudiness but you could not see into this tank last night when I finished at 1pm.  This is a testament to the Tetratec's capabilities when it doesn't leak (It has no filter floss in it, just foam, bio balls and ceramic hoops!!)

All that is left to go in is some Cryptocoryne Parva which will surround the base of the redmoor pieces and to the sides, leaving the central front as plain sand (samey, samey) like I have in the past 2 scapes.  I have sloped the sand (as much as I could with reduced visibility) from front to back so that the substrate depth is about 9cm at the front and 13cm at the back.

On with the pictures:

This is the first full frontal pic of the new scape showing the wood and plant positions as well as the cloudiness of the water (p.s. I forgot to turn the Arcadia Freshwater on for the photos so this is with just 0.9WPG T5HO 4500K pink light.  Its a damn good light:



No I have not put rocks *into* my hardscape.  I have put them *onto* the hardscape to hold it down lol.  They are just natural limestone I dug out of my back garden whilst digging it through (I have about a ton of this stuff which came out of the ground!!!  The rest I am gradually chipping into small squarish pieces to cover my patio area for free.)  These will of course come out well before I get fish in there because it is not good for the Ph stability, but until then I can't see the problem.

The Blackpool lights at Christmas



Drop checker is still only lime green and CO2 is only on for 8 hours a day (2 before, 2 after lights) yet look at the pearling on the needle ferns.  They would usually flair out from the branches but all the bubbles of CO2 and pearling are holding them bolt upright.  This is 24 hours after the tank was refilled so I am pretty sure it isn't from the water change as it wasn't there when the lights turned on this morning.

This is the left hand side (showing the Fluval3+):



This piece of wood has needles, plus the large, medium and petite anubias on it.  You can see the larger Spiralis and the 2 types of balansae pushing over from behind the wood.

Finally the right hand side:



This piece just has medium Anubias and needles on it.  The Java in the background is much bigger than it seems but I used some cotton to pull it together at the base as it was flattening out from its own weight out of water.  It will spread out once it attaches again and I 'cut the cord'

So there you go.  Have I cracked it at last.  Doing the 'in thing' inevitably in my own way.  I like it but criticism is welcome.  As with the last scape though remember that the Crypts will over the next 2-3 months bush up quite dramatically to fill out the space at the moment.

First fishy arrivals will be at the end of July/early august and they will be 4 Zebra Otos (Cocama)

Thanks for reading
Andy


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## aaronnorth (30 Jun 2008)

that looks nice from what i can see, he ock at the front spoils it IMO, will that eventually be coming out? or it could be covered in moss


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## GreenNeedle (30 Jun 2008)

All the rocks are just there to hold the redmoor down.  They aren't any good for fish being limestone as they will alter the Ph.  3-4 weeks time they will be out, broken into small pieces and put with the rest of my 'patio'

Andy


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## GreenNeedle (3 Jul 2008)

Took a 25 mile round trip from work to maidenhead at whisby to my Mums and then home today (on my bike of course. lol

To my delight I have found the fish I thought would be the hardest.  The rasbora (Microrasbora erythromicron). yippee

Best part is that apparently they have been in the shop for 2 months already and are not selling.  This is because Maidenhead Whisby are not so good at planting and have also put them in with harlequins.  The micros are really scatty in there and therefore they haven't coloured up. with the blue stripes!!!

Next best part is that they are one of the fish that has a hand written label so there is no picture to see what they look like when relaxed.

Therefore they have reduced the price and they are Â£9 for 6.  So these will now be the first fish into the tank in 2-3 weeks.  12 of them for Â£18 compared with the Â£48.95 they would've cost from an internet seller.

I have found a source for the black corys and Zebra Otos but want to get the micros while they are at this price so theother 2 will now follow after.

Andy


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## GreenNeedle (12 Jul 2008)

The scape is now 2 weeks old and still looking good.  Tetratec did me proud sending me a replacement O ring and a new in/out hose connector for the filter's powerhead.  Is up and running and not a sign of leakage at all.

The tank is looking nice and lush, just wish it had fish in it but 2 weeks more waiting and I shall have the microrasboras in there.

Some of the crypts have a few melting leaves but overall they are holding up really well.  They are starting to blossom with life now.  This has cause some very minor hair algae outbreaks though but when I say minor I do mean that.  they are very small and isolated.  I have however left the melting leaves in there as with me not having fish and therefore no leftovers the MTS need something to eat.  They are eating up the melting leaves pretty quickly too.

Just re-installed my nightlights and thought that I would show you a pic.




Roll on 2 weeks time when I get put some life back into the tank.

Andy


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## GreenNeedle (12 Jul 2008)

This is the reason for 'Under the forest canopy' finishing prematurely.  I guess you could say the inspiration for the new scape.

Those doors were closed and locked very soon after I took this pic I can tell you and the canopy put on before Bob went for a swim:





Andy


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## GreenNeedle (23 Jul 2008)

Went to Maidenhead Aquatics today and bought 12 of the zebra microrasboras for Â£18.  They were virtually plain white but within a couple of hours in the tank they started to colour up.

Will take a pic of them next week when they fully colour up.  They are great shoaling fish from what I have seen so far and tend to do complete 'laps' of the tank following each other like a swarm.  They also seem to enjoy getting blasted by the MP400 powerhead which with them being such small fish sends them spiralling out of control for 6 inches or more at which point they return for a similar fate.  Is quite funny to watch but they seem to like it.  Being from Myanmar I guess they are fish that like a reasonable current anyway.

I will probably get the Zebra Otos next but this will be in mid September as I am now going to Portugal for 11 days at the beginning of September (Moscatel Wine Festival in my wife's village.)  I think it will be best to have less fish in the tank for this period whilst it is going through its initial stages.

On the algae front there is still a little green hair algae where some of the crypt leaves melted but it is still minor and I am still not worried about it.  For once in one of my setups there is no sign of any BBA (4 weeks in now) which has been an occurrence in all of my setups before.  I think this is probably due to the improved current created by the powerhead.

The rocks are still in there but I will be removing them on Friday.  If the broader piece is still not soaked enough I shall put non-limestone rocks on it for another month.  Not sure why but my Ph hasn't been affected by the limestone being in there??  I have only been doing 10% weekly so it's not a dilution factor.  Does anyone know why this is?  I was assuming that the limestone would've made the Ph go down though I'm not complaining.

Andy


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## Mark Evans (23 Jul 2008)

i went to MA this weekend too. i got some ember tetras. much better quality. didnt realise how red/orange they should be.

whos looking after the tank while your away. i cant bare tobe away for 3 days max!

mark


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## GreenNeedle (23 Jul 2008)

I saw the ember tetras in there today. Although not a fan of red/orange fish they did look very healthy.  I wonder if they do ember tetras in a blue? 

When I go on holiday I turn the CO2 off, no dosing, reduce the lighting period to 5 hours and only minimal wattage.  Then put the autofeeder in position and set to 1 small feed a day (very small in this case. lol)

My Dad will pop round half way through the hols to check on them.

Last time I was away for 15 days and no problems apart from an overgrown tank. lol

Andy


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## GreenNeedle (26 Jul 2008)

True to my usual nature I have changed my mind already.  I will not be waiting until I return from Portugal in mid September and have ordered the Zebra Otos and Black Corys already   God bless working tax credits.

The Zebra Otos (4 of them) will be here on Tuesday and the Black Corys (6 of them) will be here on Friday.

I am also thinking about getting anothe 6 of the microrasbora to make their shoal more impressive.

May sound like heavy stocking but a total of 38" IN MY 33usg would be my lowest fishload yet. lol

Can't wait till Tuesday

Andy


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## Mark Evans (26 Jul 2008)

SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> True to my usual nature I have changed my mind already. I will not be waiting until I return from Portugal in mid September and have ordered the Zebra Otos and Black Corys already  God bless working tax credits.



  just like me, it burns a hole in your pocket. nice


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## GreenNeedle (30 Jul 2008)

Here is a pic of the tank but I am finding it very hard to get pictures of the fish at the moment as they are still very skittish (getting used to a 2 and 3 year olds faces pressed against the glass all the time I suspect.)





Will post pics of the fish when I can get them. The microrasboras and Otos are stunning.  The Corys come on Friday.

Andy


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## GreenNeedle (4 Sep 2008)

Just a quick update on this journal.  A shameless bump I suppose.

I am in Portugal at the mo and have been since 29th August.  The scape was 2 months old on my departure and the CO2 was turned off, dosing stopped and light at 8 hours/0.9WPG.  I have been using the old 0.6WPG freshwater for a noon burst again to speed the "thickening" up a bit.

Prior to Leaving:
Fish:
The microrasboras seem to be getting used to me.  When I sit in front of the tank they are very wary of me but if I stay relatively still they will go about the tank.  The slightest movement and they all fly off into the Java Fern which is their home.

I added 14 red cherry shrim supplied by TheBullit and unlike the rasboras these dont give a damn who is watching or what they are doing.  They flit around all over the place.

The Zebra Otos are still not to be seen.  I started to wonder if they are dead?  Hopefully they are just in hiding.

The MTS have spiralled out of control at the same time due to the melt and initial algae probs.  Hopefully the shrimp will deprive some of their food source because they block my syphon up when I remove them that way.

Plants:
The Philippine Java is so tall that several leaves poke out of the water and have their tips burnt/dried by the heat
of the lights. lol.  The Crypt Spiralis is a mjor success at the back left of the tank.  The Wendtii at the front is thickening quite well although a long way from the desired effect.  The needle Java is now spiralling out of control and all the old growth that got a little too dried whilst out of the tank has gone to be replaced by new growth.

When I return on Tuesday (2am ish):
First job of course after a short sleep will be to do a little pruning, checking etc then do a quick 20% water change.  Then on with the CO2 and a double dose of ferts.
There was a problem with the corys that shouldve come last month and I have rearranged for them to arrive on Tuesday (yes I shall have 6 hours sleep.)  Then I plan to relax and admire the inhabitants for a long time before leaving for work at    
12-30pm - allowing 40 minutes for the 8Â½mile bike ride.

I will of course take some pics and hopefully capture some of the fish and shrimp this time.  I am not the best when it comes to photography.

I will also be off to P@H over the next couple of weeks looking for some Crypt Parva.  I think 2 Tropica pots should do it.  I may get a Wendtii green as well to get the 3 for Â£9 deal.  Not bothered if its dying as crypts will die anyway before rejuvenating.  Its the crowns Im after. lol

AC


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## beeky (4 Sep 2008)

Coming together nicely, the parva should fit in well.

Maybe you need some more mid water shoaling fish to give the others some confidence?


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## GreenNeedle (4 Sep 2008)

I was orig trying to stay within the traditional inch per gallon rule but I have thought about getting some zippier fish to shoal the higher regions.  something like zebra danios but slightly less common.  I have had zebra danios in this tank before and they were great but I want something similar but not black and white. lol

AC


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## Egmel (4 Sep 2008)

I'll be interested to see how you get on with those dwarf rasboras, they were the ones I always wanted but I'm limited in where I can buy fish.

If I do ever see some though I think they would be an ideal shoal to complement my rummy noses 

I really like the sense of depth you've created in the tank (though that might just be the angle of the shots) it has a nice woodland feel to it, the ottos must love it, they're probably hiding somewhere enjoying all the leaves and cover!


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## beeky (5 Sep 2008)

SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> I was orig trying to stay within the traditional inch per gallon rule but I have thought about getting some zippier fish to shoal the higher regions.  something like zebra danios but slightly less common.  I have had zebra danios in this tank before and they were great but I want something similar but not black and white. lol
> 
> AC



I've got some glowlight danios (danio choprai) which are nice. Kind of orangey pink vertical bars


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## GreenNeedle (14 Sep 2008)

a small update after my belated return from Portugal.

I had to arrange for my Dad to come round and receive plus acclimitise 6 Black Cory Aeneus/Schultzei for me and he has done a grand job.  Pics below.  Cant get focused pics of the group yet but these are some inividual and couple shots along with some pics of the cherry shrimp that I got from TheBullit.

Story of the tank while I was away was 8 hours@0.9WPG, no dosing, no CO2, no water changes.  Results were surprising.  The Anubias have gone a gorgeous dark green, the needle leaf Java has gone mad, the phillipine had a few deteriorating leaves, the crypts were unphased!!!  After some pruning and general cleaning up it all looks grand.

I also returned to a bacterial bloom.  Am doing 25% water changes each night to remove it and the water is getting clearer daily.  It is clear for the first few inches and not really that cloudy further in but its annoying when you are used to a crystal clear view to the back!!  Will take pics of the tank after Ive finished.

On to the photos:

Firstly the Black Corys and then the cherry shrimps.































These fish are lovely, the shrimp are cool and all  seems to be going well.  The microrasboras are shoaling but are still at the back of the tank.  Very hard to photograph.  Still not seen the zebra Otos since I put them in!!!

AC


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## jay (15 Sep 2008)

Lovely corys. So black corys are just a colour morph of Aeneus/Sterbai?? Whatever they are, I love corys and they look real nice.
What do you mean by 'bacterial bloom'?? Just I've only known of a bacterial bloom as in when a load of filter bacteria dies and clouds up the water... If this is the case for you then isn't that going to mean bad news for the fish?


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## Thomas McMillan (15 Sep 2008)

I love all of the fish in your tank. Your microrasboras are cool and I adore black cories.


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## GreenNeedle (15 Sep 2008)

From what I understand black corys are a hybrid of Schultzei (I put Sterbai by accident) and all the bigwig cory people are arguing wether they are Aeneus or Schultzei.  Frank Falcone says Schultzei though contrary to what is said below.

An extract from another forum:

_Shane Linder of Planet catfish fame collected three forms of C. aeneus in Venezuela during his two year tour there. Amongst these were very dark forms, which he considered to be the natural black aeneus. I believe it is from this that the breeders in the Czech Republic produced the very dark, almost black forms._

So I assume that they are a sort of hybrid.  All the really dark ones are tank bred.  The wild ones are not so dark apparently (I ain't no Cory expert. lol)

No idea what happened but when I got back there was a slight 'smokyness' to the water.  5 days of 25% water changes has cured it now. Still not as clear as was but it is much better and continuing to improve.  Was maybe the introduction of the Corys disturbing the substrate making for an ammonia boost on top of their own spike.

Andy


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## LondonDragon (15 Sep 2008)

Looking great Andy, sand and corries perfect combination, shame I lost mine


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## GreenNeedle (4 Oct 2008)

I keep saying I will post up some new pics of this scape and never get round to it. I will make sure I do tomorrow.

One problem with tanks that are long term is that growth changes the effectiveness of the circulation which in turn of course changes how well the bubbles are moved.  In this case the Crypt Spiralis in the left rear section has gone rampant!!!  Much faster than the balansae in the same area.  The Philippine Java in the rear right was getting a bit large too.  Reminded me of Carlos Valderama!!!  Therefore I have been moving it all about trying several positions within the tank for the diffuser and the powerhead.

I eventually settled on returning to the needle wheel concept!!! but with a difference in that the powerhead is now placed next to the Lily pipe and therefore both are pushing the water from the same place in the right rear corner to the same place along the back to the left rear corner.  Then the diffusor is positioned near the substrate directly below the powerhead intake.  From there the bubbles rise, enter the powerhead, get chopped even further to the point that you can hardly see them at all (I wondered if some were missing the intake at first) and  then blowing along the back.  Proof of the pudding is I can then see them traveling along the front glass so I'm pretty happy with the new positioning.

While I was getting it all sorted I took Carlos out and gave him a haircut (and beard trim - you should see the roots that I cut off!!! like a ball of wool.)  As usual I got a little carried away but this plant grows like mad.  When it regrows there will be a plus in that the diffusor and powerhead will be totally hidden.  There will be a minus though in that it will be quite awkward getting out each week to clean.  At this moment I am getting quite interested in the inline Boyu that Zig used on his mountainscape.

There are some new additions in the way of some Rotala Macrandra that I am experimenting with to see how they will grow in this 'low light' setup.  Not so much as part of the scape, more of a test really.

Pictures tomorrow I promise.

AC


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## GreenNeedle (4 Oct 2008)

I promised some pictures and here they are, untouched except for resizing in irfanview:

p.s. This is the first time I remembered to turn the daylight tube on to balance the pink and I think it looks much better.  The pink is the tube used for the photoperiod.  The daylight just for photos mainly.

This first pic just shows the tank / scape from the front.  Ignore the Macrandra at the front as this is a test only.  If it succeeds in growing under this light then there is some at the back which I may keep in dependent on how it looks.  The Philippine Java in the right rear is about a third of what it was prior to last night when I took to it with some sharp scissors. lol




This second one show the tank from a more 'arty' angle.  I think it looks fuller and a little better from this angle too as you can't see through the stalks of the crypts while I wait for them to fill out more.




One more pic of the corys 'schooling'.  They are actually feeding and they tend to congregate at this time.




Now onto some fish that are darned hard to capture and even when you do get pics of them they are not very good when using a compact.  I guess someone with some decent equipment and knowledge to go with it could get much much better.  Unfortunately I only have pics of the Microrasboras.  I haven't seen the Otos since the first week I put them in about 2 months ago and I think they must have died and been consumed.  Pity because they were stunning little fish when I set them free!!

These 2 pics show males.  Notice how intense the blue stripes on his side are.  They are more intense in real life but again compact camera etc.  His fins are red and his head yellow to go with the blue stripes.  I think this is the same male.  How can I tell?  Each fish although having the stripes has slightly different stripes.  Some are wider and less of them, some are fine like this one.  the wider ones are the more spectacular as the contrast between the white/silver flesh and the blue stripe is even better than this:







These 2 pics show females.  Now you can see the difference in that although they still have the red fins and yellow faces their stripes are a dullish grey/blue.  Nowhere near the intense blue of the male.







Finally one more shot of the tank a few days ago in the daylight (before I trimmed the Philippine)




I was asking a while back about a top dweller to put in this tank and had several suggestions which I liked.  Then while I was getting the Macrandra and Crypt Parva the other day from P@H I noticed a tank with 14 little fish in it a tiny bit smaller than the microrasboras.  Very plain little fish, but together in the top third with absolutely stunning eyes like mini LEDS.  Yes they were lampeye killies and I decided then and there that these will be the fish.  I won't be getting them yet.  They will be for the future.  Maybe at christmas.

AC


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## Thomas McMillan (4 Oct 2008)

I love this tank, the jungle feel is similar to what I'm trying to create in my tank. 

Lampeyes are great fish, how many are you thinking of getting?


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## GreenNeedle (4 Oct 2008)

I think 8-12 will look good.  they inhabit a different area of water to all the others and they are small.  Plenty of plants and filtration helps of course.

AC


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## aaronnorth (5 Oct 2008)

looks great


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## GreenNeedle (19 Oct 2008)

I thought I would do an update as there have been some developments this week.

Firstly some bad news in that on Wednesday I noticed 1 of the Cory Schultzei floating at the top!!  From peopleâ€™s suggestions on planetcatfish it seems it could be a internal bacterial infection. The others seemed OK so I did a 10% water change and then left the tank as it was.

Then on Thursday I noticed one of the microrasboras at the filter outpipe.  Must have been dead a couple of days as it was already half eaten.  Maybe this was the cause of the cory dying?

Anyway have been doing a 10% water change each night and everyone else seems OK.  Will keep on the daily water changes for another week and see how they go.

On the planted front I have made several changes to the equipment.

I have been having a few problems with BBA in the centre of the tank on the needle ferns.

Due to the increase of plantmass in this tank and a large quantity of it being â€˜substrate freeâ€™ I have now doubled the original dosing.  This is not because the original quantity was wrong as the tank was going along very well with that quantity for quite a while. Its just that as the plants have grown in so well they are now using the original amount very quickly and is probably the reason for the small algae outbreaks.

Firstly I decided to try out the Boyu inline diffuser that Zig has used in his mountainscape V2 scape.  Its not because Iâ€™m not happy with the Rhinox.  More a case of not having to clean it as often which was a bit troublesome because of the new position I had had to put it in as the plants have grown.  I bought 2 as they are really cheap and that way I can swap them every couple of weeks.

Here is a pic of the diffuser in Situ:




The initial observations were good.  Very small bubbles, however this led me onto another debate.

I have been using glass in and out pipes for a long time and I started a discussion on wether these tubes due to their smaller intake capacity (the intake on stock tubes is a large strainer, whereas on glass tubes are small slits) and also that as they are quite thick they reduce a 12/13mm to 8mm.  The screw on connector for hoses of course reduces the diameter but not as much.  I decided to put the pipes that came with the filter in to see.  This is the spray bar and intake strainer:







There is a noticeable difference between the flow.  Therefore I have decided to return to the spraybar and inlet originally supplied with the filter.  The microbubbles are now blasting all over the place.  I still have the powerhead in there but I may â€˜trialâ€™ not using it and just having the 6 x volume filter running.

Here is a front shot of the tank (picture in the daytime Iâ€™m afraid and with only the 0.9WPG on so the colour is a little pink.)  I havenâ€™t reduced the size of this picture as much as usual so that if you want you can take a much closer look and try and find the algae. Lol


 

So a week where I lost 2 fish and took 3 pieces of glass out of the tank.  Heartbreaking but the fish seem OK and the circulation is much improved!!!

AC


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## Mark Evans (19 Oct 2008)

looks great andy, that thermometer looks massive


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## GreenNeedle (19 Oct 2008)

Thanks matey.  That thermometer is the 99p one from Wilko. lol.  Is about 4inches long.

I have been looking at this picture (and previous ones) and have been thinking.  Very dangerous thing. lol.

I am thinking of totally removing the Cryptocoryne Spiralis and Balansae (the spiralis is the dominant 2 ft long plant on the left starting to trail the water surface.)

Then moving the Philippine Java from the right rear to the left rear where it will totally fill out this area especially once it has grown back to its fullest!!!.

This would then produce the 'triangle' effect sloping from top left to bottom right.

Any opinions?

AC


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## aaronnorth (19 Oct 2008)

i like it how it is now 

how does that diffuser work? is that a white ceramic block in the middle? where did you get it form?

Thanks.


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## GreenNeedle (19 Oct 2008)

Zig gave me the link from ebay.  I got 2 including postage for under a tenner!!!.  You can either use them as the outflow and put them in the tank (there is a 'strainer' fitting which you see on the adverts.) or fit them inline like Zig (and now I) have it.

The water goes through the unit where the ceramic part in the middle IS the hose.  The part around the ceramic tube fills up with water when there is no CO2 and then as the gas comes in you can see the water slowly diminish.  Then you have water within the tube and gas on the outer.

I got it/them from here:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... :IT&ih=002

If you are a 'penny pincher' then you can search worldwide and then buy the ones they advertise in Australian or Us etc and choose the cheapest due to the exchange rate.

AC


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## JamesM (20 Oct 2008)

I got a couple of those diffusers after seeing Zig use them too, but at 3bps I'm not getting great results... the bubbles seem to gather at the top of the terrible Tetratec Ex700 boxy U pipes, then in the top of the spraybar, before getting pushed out in one go. I'm really starting to think my choice of filters was a bad one. 

Using them on the inlet isn't great either - with no media other than 2 trays of sintered glass, the EX700's still seem to hold co2 for too long, again before dumping as much as possible out in one go 



Looking good Andy, keep us informed on how you get on with them


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## Steve Smith (20 Oct 2008)

Looking good Andy   Shame you've decided to get rid of the Crypts, but also good as I've bought them 

Quick question about the diffuser - Is it designed for 12mm or 16mm hose?  I'm assuming 12?

Edit:  I've just re-read your first post - EX700, ergo 12mm   Perfect.  I've just mailed the seller to find out combined shipping on 4 of them!  I have 2 tanks I could use them on and you and zig seem to like them!  Better than the current nasty green cheap external I've got at the moment


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## GreenNeedle (20 Oct 2008)

Important note is that it is an external diffuser not a reactor, therefore bubbles come out of the spraybar/lily.outlet pipe.  Seems to work very well and I have always been keen to keep the bubbles rather than using a reactor to dissolve the CO2.

It has hosetails similar to the Vecton sterilisers so I assume it will fit both 12 and 16 but I haven't measured it.  Unlike the Vectons they are hard plastic so would need a saw to cut them for larger filters (so as not to restrict the flow.)  Jubilee clips could be used but as yet I haven't.

You know me and patience.  They don't go together too well and the more I looked at it the more I felt the Crypts were blocking out too much light and I also though the Fern would look good in that corner.

I have done 2 x 50% water changes and the water is still cloudy but will settle eventually.  I have planted 3 pots of Pogostemon Helferi in the empty space on the right so I now have a triangular shaped plant 'horizon' with a pogostemon 'grassland' to the right rear.  Should look good (I hope.)

Posted the crypts this morning.  I know on the pics I put the ruler but I think you will be surprised at the size of your purchase there.  Hope you have a large and tall tank for them. lol

AC


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## GreenNeedle (20 Oct 2008)

JAmesM said:
			
		

> at 3bps I'm not getting great results... the bubbles seem to gather at the top of the terrible Tetratec Ex700 boxy U pipes, then in the top of the spraybar, before getting pushed out in one go. I'm really starting to think my choice of filters was a bad one.
> Using them on the inlet isn't great either - with no media other than 2 trays of sintered glass, the EX700's still seem to hold co2 for too long, again before dumping as much as possible out in one go



I am running 3bps, same filter, same pipes but I have full media in.  Working great for me!!!!  Most spray bars will hold gas in them, normally air because some ends up getting pushed to the end.  If you look at it with no CO2 'inline' there is still some air gets trapped in there.  Not a problem because most of the bubbles come out of the spraybar holes on the way to the end and the small amount that makes it to the end is in contact with the water so some will still diffuse there.

I think they're great filters at a great price personally.  Now I have the original pipes back on it, the flow seems to be  superb again.  Pity because I like the look of the glass in/outs but in the end practicality had to take priority over aesthetics.  At least the pipes are clear and not awful green like some other brands that owners won't hear a bad word said about.

AC


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## Steve Smith (20 Oct 2008)

SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> At least the pipes are clear and not awful green like some other brands that owners won't hear a bad word said about.
> AC



Here here 

The tank the crypts are going in is quite tall, about 45cm or there abouts


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## JamesM (20 Oct 2008)

SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> JAmesM said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well I'm going to live with it for a week or so, but my drop checkers aren't quite green enough for my liking with this method. 

By far the best way of getting co2 around my tank seems to be with a powerhead positioned just above the diffuser. The ultra fine bubbles stay suspended in the water much longer, and when shut down before lights out, everything starts pearling like crazy. I've yet to see any pearling with the boyu diffuser in place


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## GreenNeedle (20 Oct 2008)

I have a powerhead to the right of the spraybar. maybe that is helping.  I am at grass green these days. Not so keen on lime/yellow.

AC


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## GreenNeedle (27 Oct 2008)

A quick update.

I removed the balansae and Spiralis from the left of the tank (SteveUK got this) and then put the Philippine Java in its place.  I now have a triangle (or at least will have once the fern fills out a little more.)

I then planted 2 pots of Tropica Pogostomen Helferi where the Java was.  As normal I have it differently to others. lol.  I have a 'carpet' behind the front part of the scape an with the positioning of the tank in an alchove of mmy room it is quite hard to get a decent view from teh right where it is (I had a go and it is below.)

So onto some pics:

Full tank shot from the front:





From the left:




From the right:




And the Helferi:




AC


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## Steve Smith (27 Oct 2008)

The spiralis is looking OK in my tank mate, getting some melt but hopefully it'll settle down!  Thanks again 

Loving the needle ferns there.  Wish I could get mine that long (ooerr)


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## GreenNeedle (27 Oct 2008)

I seem to be able to grow anything really long. lol  Some of those needle fern leaves are a foot long!!!

AC


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## Themuleous (27 Oct 2008)

Thats some amazing anubia!  In great health by the looks of things.

Sam


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## GreenNeedle (29 Oct 2008)

Not one to leave things alone I am already pondering a couple of more changes in the equipment.

The spraybar is working so well that I am thinking of removing the powerhead (going back down to 5.6x!!!!.)

I'm also thinking of moving the filter intake to the open space to make sure it can pull water in from all directions as the water is not as clear since I moved it to the behind the Java where it is a little enclosed by the plants and maybe some of the particles aren't finding their way into the filter.

The final change I thinking of is returning to the glass diffusor.  The inline works well but I have had to extend the hose due to the space in my cabinet and also the bubble rate is much higher to maintain gren in the DC which defeats the object really.  Pity because the bubbles come out very small from it.  I will keep the inline diffusors though in case of breakage.

AC


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## GreenNeedle (31 Oct 2008)

A big problem I have been having with my huge plantmass is the continual changing of the flow with growth.

I like the Boyu inline diffusors that I bought after seeing Zig use them but they don't work very well with my current setup.

Problem being that with them being inline you need to have your filter outlet pushing the flow into the tank whereas I have always had my filter outlet pointing toward the surface creating turbulence.  That means that with the CO2 being inline a lot is lost at the surface which then meant I had to up the injection rate to 4bps just to get to grass green.  I may use these in the future if I use a suitable outlet.



Started the week with powerhead and glass outlet next to each other right rear) with the inline diffusor.  Wasn't working great and I also started pondering the smaller diameter of the glassware restricting the flow of the filter.  Glass inlet was front right.  

I then moved to the original inlet and spraybar which improved the flow BUT more CO2 was lost using the spraybar.  The powerhead was also pushing the spraybar flow further upward. (spraybar right rear to centre rear, inlet rear left)  

I then took out the inline diffuser and tried positioning the Rhinox 2k diffuser under the spraybar which didn't work very well.  Tried it without the powerhead and still not working great.  The water was getting cloudy at this stage so I moved the inlet from the rear left where it was enclosed by the Java Fern to the rear right where it was in 'clear' water.  Cloudiness disppeared within 24 hours.

Then I tried the diffuser under the inlet strainer (again without the powerhead) but again came to the conclusion as with the inline diffusor that the spraybar just doesn't work with the CO2 coming through it diffusion wise. pipework still in the same position as last change.

Finally went back to using the powerhead a little further down from the surface with the diffusor under it and I am back down to 2bps and everything seems to be rosy.

So I now have the filter inlet in the right rear corner with the spraybar going from the right rear to centre rear.  Then the powerhead is on the right side pointing left with the diffusor below it.

Problem I now have is some staghorn and BBA on some of the leaves which I have been immune from for quite a while.  Hopefully that will now clear up.

AC


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## GreenNeedle (2 Nov 2008)

I'm still on the never ending hunt for 30ppm alongside large plantmass and not any great success so far but I think I am getting there.  Since the plants filled and filled more the DC has gone from lime - grass and these days hovers around the murky greeny blue area.

I wondered if my Ph kit was out of date and meaning the DC colour was off so I checked the Ph with some TetraStrips and it said 6.8.  I checked with the AP liquid kit and it said 6.8.  With my tap water reading 7.2 I have to assume that I am not injecting enough so bps out of the window (its going too fast to count!!!!)  Never seemed to have these problems when I ran 24/7 rather than solenoid but I shall persist. lol

I have ditched the aesthetics.  The Lily pipe and glass inlet are out.  the glass diffusor is out.  Lots of plastic is in and bubbles galore disturbing the view (which I don't really mind that much)

this is the setup I have settled on at the moment. This is the 8th combination I have tried this week.  The powerhead is at the rear and runs into an old Fluval Internal filter spraybar pointing to the front.  Just in front of the powerhead is the filter intake.  At the front corner is the connection for the Tetratec spraybar with the spraybar removed.  In the spraybars place I have put the powerhead outlet extension and deflector (trying to imitate Zig's ADA jetpipe setup a little here. lol.)  The Boyu inline diffuser is back in place.




This means the filter flow and CO2 bubbles blast out of the outlet which is angled downward slightly by the deflector.  Then the bubbles get pushed downward in all directions by the spraybar.  Any bubbles that try to get back to the surface are pushed back down again. In theory this should work really well as I can see bubbles everywhere (the preverbial lemonade tank at the mo.)

This is the DIY jetpipe setup:




And a few pics of the bubbles:







Fingers crossed on this one. lol

Other thing is I have removed the 'test' Macrandra from the front as it was geting bent in two from the flow at the front.  There are still stems at the back as you can see (one of at least) in this pic:




Finally a couple of pics I managed to take of one of the Zebra Microrasboras:







AC


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## Thomas McMillan (2 Nov 2008)

This tank is starting to look great, really liking the jungle feel, the fish, plants, everything. I've always been a huge fan of jungle scapes. 

I like how it's taking the triangular shape, although it needs more time for the taller plants to take hold. One thing though - I think the large clump of Anubias to the right looks really out of place and spoils the triangular formation a bit.


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## zig (2 Nov 2008)

Interesting arrangement Andy, you will get there  

PS.  a few carefully placed stalks of branch like driftwood would look good protruding out from all that long leave fern, could look sexy baby 8)


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## Nabhan Khan (3 Nov 2008)

if you ever want to get rid of any anubias, im your man.
how come you need that much flow around the tank?
i get that the nutrients and co2 need to spread out, but is it that important?
surely if the nutrients are there it will eventually spread out?


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## GreenNeedle (3 Nov 2008)

I think if you ask that question in filtration then you may get someone reply with a clearer explanation than I can give.

My explanation would be if the flow is not enough then the plants in the early part of the flow will get the CO2 but the plants toward the end will not because the gas will exit the water.  Similarly in a low flow tank the CO2 won't be forced into the plants at the bottom.

Nutrients are the opposite.  With low flow they sink and settle on the substrate.  What you want here is to keep the particles in suspension for as long as possible to spread them out everywhere.

The filter won't spread things out.  If you look at your substrate the flow doesn't leave detritus spread out.  It will push it all into one area.  What we are trying to do is keep everything in the water column for as long as possible rather than it get stuck anywhere.  (This is what I find anyway)

AC


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## aaronnorth (3 Nov 2008)

also helps combat algae.


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## GreenNeedle (4 Nov 2008)

I'm still not happy with this setup.  Its proving harder than you'ld imagine to get the CO2 DC light green.  I think the last time I saw light green was in Sept 07 when I first setup Under the Forest Canopy and all the plants were very low.  Of course that meant very few obstacles of the flow.  I was also running 24/7 back then which I am currently contemplating.

Will see how it goes today and if it doesn't work then first I'll check for leaks (must be up near 6bps at the mo) and if no leaks then I am going to be getting the saw out on my hood so I can get the pipes in from the other end (and get rid of that annoying 3mm overhang at the back that always ruins my photos. lol

AC


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## GreenNeedle (4 Nov 2008)

I still wasn't happy so I had another tinker and swap around.  I cut the bottom centimetre of the hood's rear panel too so that it doesn't show behind the water line.  sides don't need to be cut due to the 'mirror' effect when looking into the tank.

I think I have cracked it though and joy oh joy I have all my glass (more than before) in the tank now.  DC was a nice light green in the dense area on the left opposite where I now have the Rhinox again.  I have put fresh solution + AP Ph test drops in it and left it to change colour again.  As yet is at mid green after 4 hours.  bps is back down to just under 2bps.  

So I now have the powerhead rear left pointing along the back to the right corner.  The Philippine once fully re-grown should hide it there.  Then I have the glass filter inlet in the right rear corner.  The Rhinox is one third from the back on the right hand side where the flow from the powerhead pushes it towards the front.  Then I have the Lily outflow front right from the side pointing along the front to the left.  The other pieces of glass are a 13mm J pipe (leading from the bubble counter, over the top of the tank and down to the diffuser) which I hadn't used for a long time and the dropchecker itself.  (Not forgetting the 99p Wilko glass thermometer. lol)

Bubbles are getting all the way across the tank.  Hardly any hitting the surface.  The bubbles that don't 'vanish' through diffusion are noticeably smaller when they reach the left hand side.  Hopefully I can hit lime green later tonight or tomorrow .

I will be very happy if it works this way because I love the look of all the glass even though it is a PITA to clean.  When it is clean it looks so crisp and....clean. lol

Both fingers crossed this time.

AC


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## Ray (4 Nov 2008)

I thought I was obsessing about flow lately (I PMed everyone with same filter and tank size for their stats), but reading this journal I feel less abnormal   

A diagram or picture might be required if this works so we can understand the prize winning solution completely   Did you consider using 17mm glassware and 16mm pipes through a 12 to 16mm converter?  I wonder if that would give better flow?


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## GreenNeedle (4 Nov 2008)

With my setup being a 700lph filter and 400lph powerjet it's more the combination of the 2 allied with the direction I use them to get in and around the plant mass and then I have to add in where I inject CO2 wether it be inline or internal diffusor etc.

I have light green now and therefore am happy.  When lights are on tomorrow should hopefully be lime green.

The setup is now:




Dark Green is tall high plantmass/hardscape, light green is low plantmass, Red is flow, pink is CO2.  Equipment from top left clockwise is: powerhead > inflow > diffuser > outflow > DC.

I will take some pictures later.

AC


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## GreenNeedle (10 Nov 2008)

Get the beer out (as if I need an excuse.)  The holy grail has finally been achieved.  Don't know how the colour shows in the pic but it is a light green.  I reduced the solution to 2ml to try and get it to react quicker.  I have also bought a 'Chameleon' style DC for Â£3.50 inc. shipping and when it arrives I will put it in the other end of the tank.




I love my glass.  You can see in this pic the 'teardrop' DC.  The Rhinox 2000 diffuser and the glass J pipe leading down to it.  Behind the tank you can see the Gamba XII NRV and bubble counter combo.  Finally the glass inlet and Lily pipe.  You may say the DC is too close to the diffuser and therefore the green is false but the powerhead is in the left rear corner and blowing the bubbles to the right.  No bubbles go anywhere near the DC!!!  This should be at the end of the CO2 'circuit'.  The new DC when it arrives will be in the other end so then I can see if the ppm is similar at both ends.  Quite a lot of algae on the glass from the last 2 weeks messing about too.




This is how the tank looks at the moment. You can't really see but there is quite a lot of BBA on the needles and Crypts in the centre of the tank from the 2 weeks of struggle with the CO2.  Hopefully now its sorted and no more tampering this will diminish again.  All deteriorating leaves have been removed.




This is a shot of the tank from the right.  Not ideal the way my tank is positioned (in an alchove to the right of the chimney breast)to get this shot as my camera is leaning on the wall to the right of the tank.




And a picture of the Pogostemon Helferi.  Not as green as Clives by a long way but also surprisingly free of algae after 2 weeks in the tank.  Before you say I took the hood off the tank after taking the picture when I noticed how much rust had gathered on my paper clip fastening.  Am going to clean the tubes and reflectors after this post is finished. lol




Finally another casualty last night.  I noticed one of the microrasboras was at the top gasping and with me dabbling with CO2 I naturally though Ooh Nooo.  On closer inspection I noticed she had a large 'tumor like' growth just in front of her anus area.  2 hours later she was wrapped around the powerhead intake and removed swiftly!!!

Thats 2 of the microrasboras now.  Seems like they aren't quite as hardy as I thought or maybe just more susceptible to growth/bacterial infections than other larger fish.

AC


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## Thomas McMillan (10 Nov 2008)

It's looking good! The top level of the tank looks a bit messy but I know it all takes time, nice one.


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## GreenNeedle (12 Nov 2008)

Changed it again but rather than explain it all this time I took a video so see below.  Forgive the poor quality.  I have no idea how to set this camera up for video so set it on macro and away I went.  The microbubbles are everywhere now. lol:



AC


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## Ray (12 Nov 2008)

Actually rather good quality and very clear.  Never realised you had all those shrimp, everywhere!  

Looks like a rather clever solution to me, you get to use Zig's diffusor but no flow loss on the filter side of things.  Are the bubbles on the lilly pipe just from it being raised to the surface, never owned a lilly pipe you see   

I take it your DC turns slowly and you are happy there is enough CO2 at lights on...?


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## GreenNeedle (12 Nov 2008)

lol at the shrimps.  2 months ago I bought 10, received 14 and now there must be 100+  When I cleaned the filter cannister out the other day there were more in there than I bought in the first place.  All alive and returned to the tank.

You are right about the bubbles caused from the raised Lily.  plenty of surface disturbance but the current it creates also drives the CO2 bubbles downward at the same time as bringing O in and making sure no film develops

DC is grass green at lights on after 2 hours of injection and stays thereabouts until CO2 turns off 3 hours before lights out.  Video makes it look rather dark but it was actually lighter than that in reality. lol. currently at 2bps.  Could probs go lower with the Lily pipe lowered but that would mean possible oily films and also the way it drives the CO2 downward is affected.

AC


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## Thomas McMillan (17 Nov 2008)

Hey Andy, how's this tank coming along? Any recent pics? 

How are the fish doing? I know you were having problems with the Microrasboras.


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## GreenNeedle (19 Nov 2008)

Huge change this week.

I decided the Pogostemon Helferi was silly behind the hardscape, barely visible from the front.  Also the growth of the needle ferns was making the front of the tank very dim so I have moved some bits and bobs and at the same tank had a darned good clean.

First though I did change the CO2 diffusion again since the last post but it has been like this now for 6 days.  Not a huge change, just that instead of it being in the open on the right and straight down I added an angled tube from an old knackered internal UV so that the diffuser is pointing in the same direct as the powerhead output.  This means I can now fit it into the space behind the Philippine Java which should grow to hide it completely:




So onto the work.  First thing I did was to remove all the hardscape pieces.  Only 3 so not too much trouble:



As a sense of scale the bottom piece is 50cm long!!!

And this is what is left with no hardscape in (wahoo you can see some of the microrasboras.  There are only 6 left of the original 12!!!)




This is my clip on light when I am scaping as the hood is not there to supply light:




The main changes then are that I removed the pogostemon helferi from the rear corner.  Then removed the Crypt Parva from the front right corner.  Replaced the 2 left pieces of hardscape (not the long one) as they were.  then I replaced the long piece but instead of it coming from the front right corner it is a lot further toward the back.  I then added some Crypt Wendtii behind it.  The Parva I removed was then used in front of the Wendtii (the whole length of the tank.)  Finally I replanted the Pogostemon Helferi in the front right corner.

This is how it looks now:




This is the left part of the tank.  The front half of this side is complete and looks great IMO.  Very full and an awesome mixture of shapes and colours, the Philippine in the rear needs to fill out to complete this side:




And this is the Pogostemon on the front right:




And although its not incredibly visible the Wendtii will get taller here at the back:




Finally we have the 2 drop checkers side by side which I will do a test on tomorrow to see which reacts quicker.  Although you can see they are different colours this is not a fair test at the moment because the teardrop has 2ml in it and the Chameleon 1Â½ml 4dKH.  I will put equal in them tomorrow and start a separate thread on the test.




So what do you think?

AC


----------



## Thomas McMillan (19 Nov 2008)

Nice! It's amazing how empty the tank looks without the hardscape - you wouldn't think all of that plant is attatched to wood.

I know you wanted a 'triangular' layout but I think it would look awesome if you had the same effect on the right as you do on the left.


----------



## Steve Smith (19 Nov 2008)

It's looking great mate.  Excellent update!  I still can't get over that needle fern


----------



## GreenNeedle (19 Nov 2008)

The Chameleon shows that when lights come on (reading the colour 2 hours after lights on of course) a light green colour.  

The colour when the noon burst finishes is yellow!!! which of course means 2 hours earlier which is when the noon burst starts so this is perfect.

The CO2 cuts off when the noon burst finishes and the final 3 hours are CO2 less.

When I look in the morning (with no lights) it is blue, so at the moment everything Co2 wise is absolutely perfect.

However from the problems I have had I got quite a lot of BBA on the leaves of everything.  this is now dieing away which leaves funny red edges to all of the leaves but is visibly less so thats great too.

Steve - Don't know what has happened with thes microrasboras.  I have pulled 2 fresh carcasses and 1 almost totally devoured one out but the other 3 must've died and been eaten without me noticing.  I guess they are just not so hardy and something got to them.  That needle fern was bought in September 07 and been hacked at, pruned etc along the way.  When I bought it from Aquatic Magic it was probably 1/20th of what it is now. lol

Tomas - I'm going to see how the triangle pans out.  I think the Wendtii 'mixture' that is now in the right rear will look great once it fills out and grows up a little.  Not sure on the Pogostemon Helferi yet.  It may be that even when grown and filled in that it doesn't suit this 'jungle' look but again we'll wait and see on that.  I'm in no hurry. lol

AC


----------



## Steve Smith (19 Nov 2008)

You've inspired me mate.  Currently got wet hands playing in my "big" tank (back from the brink journal), planting 3 pots of ludwigia arcruata... Man it's time consuming   Also playing with my flow to get better CO2 distribution.  Think I've got something that works better now 

Anyway, veering off topic there


----------



## Ray (20 Nov 2008)

I like the new arrangement.  The triangle is nice, the P. Helfrei will be nice too, once it adapts to CO2 immersed growth you get very fine crinkled leaves.


			
				SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> The CO2 cuts off when the noon burst finishes and the final 3 hours are CO2 less.


A few questions, excuse me if some of this is earlier in the journal, but you've been changing a lot of parameters  :
- 3 hours sounds like a long time to me - do you know the colour 2 hours after lights off?
- CO2 comes on how many hours before lights on and how many bps?
- What wattage normal and midday burst?


----------



## GreenNeedle (20 Nov 2008)

I haven't changed any parameters since the scape started in June.  Just being trying to get the CO2 flow sorted as the plants grew thicker/taller etc. 

No idea really on the colour 2 hours after lights out.  that would be 2am in the morning   At lights out it is still lime green.  The plants are pearling like mad for the final 3 hours so I think they have had all the CO2 they need and there should be plenty left over should they need more.

photoperiod is:
4pm - 12am 30W (0.91WPG) T5HO 4500K
7pm-9pm 18W (0.55WPG) T8 6500K
So the photoperiod is 3 hours @ 0.91WPG, 2 hours @ 1.46WPG, 3 hours @ 0.91WPG.
CO2 is 3pm - 9pm (6 hours), bps is between 2 and 3.

Remember my bps maybe different to  your bps.  Each different bubble counter may produce larger or smaller bubbles so you should use your own as your guide rather than assume if someone is using 3bps that is what you should aim for.  My 3bps maybe you 0.5bps 

AC


----------



## Themuleous (23 Nov 2008)

Those are some huge ferns!!!  Quality.

Sam


----------



## GreenNeedle (1 Dec 2008)

Just an updated pic that I took.  Came out quite well so I thought I would put it on:





AC


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## Thomas McMillan (1 Dec 2008)

Wow, I love this tank so much! I love how jungly it looks.


----------



## samc (2 Dec 2008)

the tanks looks great now the needle java looks great, filled out nicely


----------



## GreenNeedle (2 Dec 2008)

Thanks Tom and Sam.  Taking it's time as expected but its getting there 

Goes to show that sometimes many differing types of plants can work together even if one 'looks' like it is dominant.

There is: P Helferi,  2 types of fern, 3 types of Anubias and (I think) 6 types of Crypt in there at present.

By looks like what I mean is that the Anubias Barteri (on the left side) is all one rhizome!!!  Not several.  Got this from Garuf ages ago and the Rhizome is 15 - 20 inches long in a horseshoe + Fork shape!!!

When the algae that is still left over from my recent CO2 battle disappears (Anubias always the slowest to recover,)  I will be taking the front 8-10 cm of each side to sell as it is almost touching the front glass now.  Has grown these 8-10cm in the 4 months it has been in there as when I first attached it I put it level with the front of the redmoor block it is on!!!

AC


----------



## Garuf (2 Dec 2008)

You still have my anubias?! Good going! Going to pin point her?
I just broke up one one my petite ones and I've got a good 20 new plants from the original rhizome, they tend to get really clustered, does the original nana do that for you?


----------



## GreenNeedle (2 Dec 2008)

No need to pin point them Garuf. Every Anubias leaf in this picture is from your plant and just as many that you can't see (behind.)

My petite is now on the right hand side because this monster decided to shift it out of the way 






AC


----------



## Dave Spencer (2 Dec 2008)

This is definitely your best looking set up to date, Andy. It has a Farmeresque feel to it.

Dave.


----------



## GreenNeedle (2 Dec 2008)

Crash.............


............I just fainted 

I wish Dave, I wish.  Not nearly as crisp as George's but I thank you for the compliment.

AC


----------



## George Farmer (2 Dec 2008)

Looking good, Andy.  Love the needle fern.


----------



## GreenNeedle (2 Dec 2008)

Well I have to say it is you guys (including Ceg ) that I should acknowledge.

Without the knowledge gained of how to keep plants growing nicely then I would've either given up a long time ago or still be at that stage of frustrated learning.

I guess that once the plants look good and grow well then you don't mind just sitting back and watching rather than getting bored and tinkering non stop with the layout at which point the scape can develop.

So thanks to you all from the days of TFF to the present UKaps (I still use TFF )

Overwhelmed to have the 'big boys' commenting on my scape too. Makes me feel I have got something right at last 

AC


----------



## LondonDragon (2 Dec 2008)

Coming along nicely Andy  the more it fills in the nicer it will look too, nice idea with the staple gun hehehe 
Keep us posted and keep up the good work


----------



## Simon D (2 Dec 2008)

> SUBSTRATE - I am trying to keep the cost right down and so I am intending to use mulm - Â½" Leonardite - Previous Tropica mixed with a product called Aquagrit Underworld - topped with some 3mm Dorset gravel.



Excellent post, without having to read every single word, could you tell me if you went for the above detaled substratate or did this change??? :?:


----------



## GreenNeedle (2 Dec 2008)

London - Thanks for the credit for the staples but alas I have to own up.  I bought a Java on rootwood a few months after I began early 2006 I think (which died )  When I took it off I noticed that it had been stapled and cursed the seller whilst no-one could hear.  Then after reading a few 'there's no problem with using staples' comments on various forums and having got frustrated with trying to tie/band the vast amount onto this hardscape, all the time watching it slip etc. I lost my temper and out came the stapler. .  accidental success here I'm afraid but still something to know for the future. 

Simon - In a word....No.  I spent a bit on my road bike at the time so I skimped.  I just used the previous substrate as it was which was 9 months old.  Therefore extra cost was nothing .  I still have the spare tub of Leonardite in my cupboard.

The previous (and present) substrate was (and still is) mulm - leonardite - Tropica - Play sand.

Seems to be fine though.

AC


----------



## GreenNeedle (16 Dec 2008)

I ordered a Koralia1 last week and am still waiting for it to come.  Reason for this is using a powerhead means that the output is so far away from the surface due to the powerhead body needing to be mostly submerged.

I am hoping to be able to get the Koralia much closer to the surface still in the right rear but pointing downward.  I've then bought one of the Eheim power diffusers to put in the same area but much lower (in the dark hopefully ) pointing the same way.  Worth seeing if they're any good seing as they're only a fiver.  Hopefully the '1500lph' will blast the bubbles around the tank.

Not bothered too much about the flow from the filter The pump is 12x so anything from the filter (rated at 700lph) will be a bonus extra.

AC


----------



## Simon D (17 Dec 2008)

> SuperColey1 on Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:41 pm
> 
> I ordered a Koralia1 last week


I fitted a Koralia 1 to my 60 ltr community tank on Sunday (moderatley planted). The tank is only 600 x 450x 300mm (2'x 18" x 1' in real money!). The Koralia 1 turns over 1500 lph so that's 25 times volume :!: Most of the fish like it and enjoy playing in the flow, they're not stuck against the glass (suprisingly). The plants sway nicely  in the flow too. 

The reason I fitted it is to increase the distribution of the CO2, FE supplied, and I have it linked to the solinoid timer so as to give the fish a break when not injecting CO2. 

I've only got an Eheim 2210 internal filter (rated at upto 550 lph, ooohh 30 x turnover). I'd like to get an external that would give me 10 - 15 x turnover but can't find one small enough to fit in my cabinet hence the koralia. So far very pleased but too early to tell if the plants are benefitting (although I'm sure they are even without visable evidence yet).

I've got some cabomba that is stuggling (browning at the bottom half and the top halves are great), overall growing at a rate of an inch a day! I am using cuttings off these and replanting, and will see if the Koralia approach helps with the lower leaflets, better circulation of CO2 and ferts (EI dosing!) might just help.

Lighting is about 2wpg ( 2x15w T8s)

I'd be interested to hear what you think of the Koralia and if it helps you. I't a bit of an eyesore and not easy to hide as it just blows away any planted cover


----------



## GreenNeedle (19 Dec 2008)

Cut a couple of handfuls of the longer needle leaves out yesterday along with the P Helferi (which I wasn't really liking.)  Going to put some more Parva in this corner.  I would go for Glosso but I don't want the whole of the front to get taken over.

Then tonight I removed the front 10cm of the Anubias on the left as it was starting to push against the glass.  Got a little carried away here and some of the wood is now exposed but it will grow back .  I took another handful of the longer needle leaves out as well.

So the needle leaf is thinned out quite a lot, The left front is a little lighter but there is now a little space which looks a little odd and will do for a month or 2 until something grows into the space.

Will take some pics tomorrow as I will be water changing tonight and therefore bubbles galore everywhere.  tomorrow's picture will be much better.

Other changes is I have extended my photoperiod to 9 hours as its quite boring at home and waiting for 4pm is too long.  It is now 3-3-3 in that the 0.9WPG comes on at 3pm The other .5WPG comes on at 6pm then back to 0.9WPG from 9pm to midnight.  I have also lengthened the CO2 so it now runs 1pm to 11pm.

I now have 3 drop checkers in there.  1 Chameleon on the left, one Chameleon on the right and the Teardrop at the back.  All at lime green before the 'noon burst'.  Very happy 

Waiting on a Koralia1 to arrive and also an Eheim power diffuser and new CO2 hose (My CO2 is all in 1ft or less sections these days from all the tampering I have done over the past few years. lol.  The Eheim can be hidden low and at Â£5 is worth a try.

The Koralia1 will be in the top left rear corner pointing along the back down towards the centre right rear,  The Eheim will go from the bottom left rear to the centre right rear so any 'rising CO2 should be pushed back down and when it all hits the glass on the right side be pushed toward the front where the Lily should push it along the front again.  I may have to rethink once the Koralia arrives.  Have to see how it all works out.

Added 5 Otos a couple of weeks ago.  Saintly arranged to come round for some Cherry Shrimp and after seeing in one of his many journals him mentioning he was off to get some Otos the next day I cheekily asked him if he could get me some.

As per usual for me 5 quickly reduced.  First day I noticed one with it's back stuck against the slit in the filter intake.  Turned off the filter and it swam away but then next morning noticed what was left of a fish carcass with shrimp loving the feed.  Then a few days I found the weakest of the 5 arrivals had his nose stuck in the slit.  I don't think it had been trying to feed there, just it was too weak to fight the flow when it got too near.  The other 3 are doing a great job and fattening up nicely.  I always find this with Otos that you buy a few and a couple don't make it.

One thing I do like about Otos is that they can make even the poorest of cameramen (thinking me) look good as they stay perfectly still.  In this one's case even more so than usual as this was the weakest one during its second day in the tank:




AC


----------



## Mark Evans (19 Dec 2008)

SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> Cut a couple of handfuls of the longer needle leaves out yesterday



is it usable? poor ottos.  

hey the shrimp you gave me?....looking ace mate. real red.

i added another 5 ottos so now theres 10....there nutteres! swimming around chasing each other   

anyone want to see nice crypts?...andys ya man!


----------



## GreenNeedle (19 Dec 2008)

Mark - Pruning needles never produces anything useable unless you remove the whole section of rhizome. I tend to follow the leaf I want to take out down to the rhizome and then pinch it between my finger nails to snap it off.  Just means leaves left over.

Ottos can be a bit of a problem in the first few days for me.  No idea why but I know others do have similar problems.  the ones that survive never have problems unless my son intervenes or needle valves break 

Thanks for the comments on my Crypts.  They are looking even better over the last few days as I started to leave my CO2 alone once happy with it.

Those shrimps always look spectacular especially pregnant females.  Did I manage to find you a pregnant one?

AC


----------



## REDSTEVEO (30 Dec 2008)

SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> I thought I would do an update as there have been some developments this week.
> 
> Firstly some bad news in that on Wednesday I noticed 1 of the Cory Schultzei floating at the top!!  From peopleâ€™s suggestions on planetcatfish it seems it could be a internal bacterial infection. The others seemed OK so I did a 10% water change and then left the tank as it was.
> 
> ...



Hi Andy,

Just picking up on this thread. Some reall nice photos, especially in the early stages. The only thing I am not keen on is the amount of snails you have got in there. Are you a big fan of them? I am not particularly keen on them myself, especially the sort you have in the close ups. They burrow deep into the substrate, breed like mad and are hard to get rid of. I just wondered if there was any truth in the rumour that snails harbour certain forms of parasite which could be leading to intestinal infections leading to the death of some of the fish? Just a thought.

I put two Pygmy Pufferfish in my tank over a year ago and I have not seen a snail since. The puffer fish stay about one and a quarter centimtres long and keep the tank snail free. I bought them from a place called OASIS in Salford. Ask for Trevor or Eddie and they will sort you out. That is assuming that you would want to get rid of the snails. If not live and let live and all that.

Cheers.

Steve


----------



## GreenNeedle (30 Dec 2008)

Do you mind.  I paid 99p for the first 10 of these snails 

I don't think it was parasites that killed the fish.  I'm leaning towards the scum that can settle underneath the hardscape as that is where most of the rasboras tend to hide.  There is a huge amount of non substrate planting in this tank and therefore not as many roots as normal.  However I have planted a fair few Crypts right around the hardscape items to try and get some roots into the possible anaerobic areas now.  Haven't had a death for a month so fingers crossed.

Not a fan of puffers I'm afraid.  These snails are good.  They keep the sand turning over and are also part of the algae crew.  Key to keeping low numbers is not overfeeding the fish which as the snails are quite slow isn't a huge problem because the shrimp are producing faster than the snails and they are also much faster moving and remove nearly all left overs before returning to algae.

AC


----------



## Mark Evans (30 Dec 2008)

REDSTEVEO said:
			
		

> ust picking up on this thread. Some reall nice photos, especially in the early stages. The only thing I am not keen on is the amount of snails you have got in there. Are you a big fan of them?



for the amount he's got (ive seen the tank for real) you wouldn't know that there's that many. very inconspicuous little things.  

hey andy, the cherries are looking fab, not sure if there's any babies yet though   (you did give me a preggers female (obviously female)


----------



## GreenNeedle (30 Dec 2008)

The good thing I find with the snails is that they tend to be either out of view or 'asleep' for the majority of the photoperiod and only come out towards the end of it.  When they wake up they are all over the glass before coming back down to the substrate.

This however is when I often take my photos. lol

There must be thousands in there in reality!!!


----------



## REDSTEVEO (30 Dec 2008)

Obviously if you're happy with the snails, there's no problem. I suppose it is my ex Army control freaky thing taking over, I can't stand things out of order. Strange considering we are supposed to be trying to recreate a bit of mother nature for us to look at. Trouble is we are fighting a losing battle, just when the aquascape reaches its optimum condition in terms of appearance and growth, we are happy with it and then suddenly it goes past the point of being perfect and we have to start meddling with it again, trimming, pruning, rescaping etc. Still it beats playing golf  

My Scape "Fallen Wilderness" got to the stage where it was just "Wilderness" so I got my control freak head on, opened a can of whoopass and now it is just "Fallen" but is starting to show promise again on its own, but no one would recognise it from when it was first set up in Summer this year.

I'll post a picture or two straight after the New Year, speaking of which, A Happy New Year to everyone at UKAPS. May your fish be Merry and Bright and may all your plants be healthy and errrrrrrrrrr what rhymes with Bright?   :?  

Cheers.

Steve.


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## Nick16 (30 Dec 2008)

plants be healthy and right


----------



## REDSTEVEO (30 Dec 2008)

Doh!! Why didn't I think of that!!


----------



## Simon D (30 Dec 2008)

> REDSTEVEO on Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:43 pm
> 
> Trouble is we are fighting a losing battle, just when the aquascape reaches its optimum condition in terms of appearance and growth, we are happy with it and then suddenly it goes past the point of being perfect and we have to start meddling with it again, trimming, pruning, rescaping etc. Still it beats playing golf



Now, playing golf is good aswell unless of course you've never tried it! 

Fish and golf seems a bit like enjoying motor racing and quoting Monty Pithon (tends to go hand in hand for some strange reason that I've never understood). Is that just me? I'd be interested to find out what other aquarists enjoy doing as a pastime/hoby.


----------



## GreenNeedle (30 Dec 2008)

Fish - Sit in front of the tank and relax.
Golf - Hit the ball 300 yards, take a leisurely walk to where it landed whilst enjoying the fresh air and sights of nature.

Seems to me they are pretty similar in many ways.  Both relaxing, both calm and both addictive.

I have to say I sold my golf clubs a few months back and spent it on some fish. lol

AC


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## REDSTEVEO (30 Dec 2008)

Golf!! A good walk ruined  

Steve


----------



## GreenNeedle (30 Dec 2008)

You of course mean a reason to go for a walk that you would otherwise not have gone on 

AC


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## REDSTEVEO (31 Dec 2008)

I tried nine holes once. Got overtaken by everyone else who started hours after me. I spent most of my time looking for my balls.  

Then one of my balls landed in a pond so I went to look for it and guess what?   



Steve.


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## GreenNeedle (31 Dec 2008)

You of course mean a reason to go for a swim that you would otherwise not have gone on 

AC


----------



## Egmel (31 Dec 2008)

SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> You of course mean a reason to go for a walk that you would otherwise not have gone on


I tend to just walk straight to the 19th hole... 
Doing one this Sunday, not far, only about 5 miles each way.


----------



## REDSTEVEO (31 Dec 2008)

SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> You of course mean a reason to go for a swim that you would otherwise not have gone on
> 
> AC



Nope! I built a pond in my garden, another reason not to play golf


----------



## GreenNeedle (6 Jan 2009)

Not done an update for a while and this could be the last update with the current lights as I am only waiting for LEDs now to complete the LED lighting 'project'

So here we have it.  Since the last update a Koralia1 has replaced the Maxijet MP400.  I have also altered the hood anticipating that the LEDs are going to be much more light even though they will be less wattage!!!  The Hood is now a Luminaire.   I have gone open topped!!!  For now it is hanging by chain and S hooks until I figure out a prettier way.

I have cut 2 inches from the bottom all the way around, Cut the holes for the fans that are to go on each end to cool the LEDs.  Fixed the fans in.  Then I have altered the positions of the filter pipes as there will be no cutouts for them to slot into.  the current cutouts will be filled in and the Fablon'd.  Then an acrylic sheet will be fixed into the bottom to protect it all from the water.  There is a lot of wiring going to be in there. lol
The mounting board





The air inward fans




The whole setup with chains and hooks:




I found it really hard to get good pictures now that a lot of light from the gap between light and tank interferes with my compact where before the hood blocked it!!!.  So here are the best I could manage 

These first pictures just show the scape from the front:







Is it just me or does an open top tank look a lot bigger?  I look at mine now and even though I can see more of the glass heightwise it gives the appearance of being longer!!! Strange but cool

A sneaky peak into the tank with the Luminaire raised




And for those who want to see 'low light'  pearling here it is.  Remember this tank has 0.9WPG for most of the day with 30ppm pressurised and full EI dosing.  There is an extra 3 hour spell in the middle where it comes up to 1.4WPG.  this is about 2 hours into that central spell so 5 hours into the photoperiod.

So under 1.4WPG.  A 'low light' plant.  Pearling like mad!!!  Pearls even more later on in the photoperiod:




the next update will hopefully have 42W of 5500K LED lighting above it.

AC


----------



## Egmel (7 Jan 2009)

You shouldn't need the fans for the LED's that's the main reason they use so much less power, they don't waste it as heat.


----------



## GreenNeedle (7 Jan 2009)

They definately need these fans.  The journal that was on another forum where someone made one of these up he used aluminium bar and the heat from the LEDs meant he had to 'slot' the attachment at one end because they were warping the bar when they were on!!!  These get really hot not like a normal 3 or 5mm LED!!!

AC


----------



## Egmel (7 Jan 2009)

ok, that'll teach me not to re-read the backlog, just thought you were going for the <1w LEDs that most lightbulb replacements are made from!

Have you got the spec sheet for these LEDs?  I'm still a bit confused how they can dissipate so much power, it may be more the resistors he put inline with them as current limiters than the LEDs themselves.


----------



## Joecoral (7 Jan 2009)

Egmel said:
			
		

> You shouldn't need the fans for the LED's that's the main reason they use so much less power, they don't waste it as heat.



Whilst they use less power, watt for watt, LED's waste more heat than T5.
T5 waste approx 60% of their energy as heat, whereas LED's waste closer to 85%


----------



## GreenNeedle (7 Jan 2009)

no idea on the spec sheet.  Bought these cheap from China.  They are Luxeon III 5500K 3W ones though so the Luxeon site may have the datasheets on there.

The fans are no problem really.  All 8 are running from a single 12V adaptor and create a silent but noticeable breeze.  These fans are really pretty quiet whilst creating a breeze that was making my hands cold (as in out in icy weather with no gloves on) whilst I was testing them!!!

AC


----------



## aaronnorth (7 Jan 2009)

Light dispersal certainley looks better, when i lift my lid up about 5" it is a surprising difference, the colours of the tank are much better, so i might go open topped sometime in te future


----------



## Egmel (7 Jan 2009)

Joecoral said:
			
		

> Egmel said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I know it differs depending on the size of led but I thought they were more efficient than that (up to 45% in the labs), it's often difficult to find up to date specs though as people are more interested in lumens/watt.

TBH most of my experience with semiconductors is useless, a mixture of basic elec eng degree course and tit-bits I hear over a drink with friends who are doing their PhDs with them, neither of which actually applies to real world applications!

How hot do the new commercial bars run?  I know there was some field testing going on but never saw the conclusions.


----------



## GreenNeedle (11 Jan 2009)

I am experimenting with a carpet under low light now   Will update with details at a later date.   

AC


----------



## Mark Evans (11 Jan 2009)

SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> I am experimenting with a carpet under low light now  Will update with details at a later date.



mini anubias?


----------



## GreenNeedle (11 Jan 2009)

Yep. I rescued them as they were completely swarmed by the medium Anubias.

Tried the cotton wool and as normal lost my rag with it so they have been superglued to small pebbles   

Worked a treat too.  Was reading bout superglue and unlike other glues the bonding agent is actually water so you don't have to dry the plant first.  Just shake off the excess water and then on went the moist rhizomes.  Left to cure for a few minutes and then put them in a pot for a few hours to see if it would hold.

They are already in the tank now so will watch the fish and shrimp carefully.  They were in pretty bad shape because of their lack of any light and the shrimp are all over them.  Maybe they are stuck 

Will see how this works out.  Plenty of light so should grow at a reasonable pace compared to where they were on the wood.

AC


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## George Farmer (11 Jan 2009)

Supergluing plants to decor.  Neat tip there.  Nice one.


----------



## GreenNeedle (11 Jan 2009)

No cotton or fishing line in this scape.

A mixture of elastic bands, staples and superglue it is. lol

TBH I had just been supergluing one of the kids' toys back together so it was in my line of sight when I lost it with the cotton  

Interesting research showed me that reef keepers very often use superglue to hold their Corals in place 

AC


----------



## Nick16 (11 Jan 2009)

let us know how well they do, if they stay stuck and if the poison anything, or any other side effects, i normally use fishing line but end up shouting and swearing at a rock in some futile attempt that it might 'play ball'


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## Thomas McMillan (11 Jan 2009)

I want your tank.


----------



## George Farmer (11 Jan 2009)

Yeah, I've heard of coral frags being glued and it's used in surgery etc.  I just never associated the plants with it.  

Weird really, as I can manage to associate most things, somehow, with the hobby...

I love the fern BTW.  I'm steering away from fern/Anubias 'scapes but when I return I'd like one like that.


----------



## GreenNeedle (11 Jan 2009)

Many thanks George.  Taken a couple of years being jealous of your ferns to get to this stage. lol

I wouldn't think the superglue would poison anything.  If it were the slightest bit dangeous I don't think reefers would be using it.  They seem to be the most cautious in the hobby.

This isn't the superglue used to stitch skin though.  Its a different type that is used to 'stitch' skin.  the type I've used is standard Loctite stuff but there isn't a _'harmful to aquatic life'_ warning on it which has to be there by law if there is any danger.

AC


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## Nick16 (11 Jan 2009)

il look for some loctite stuff then! cheers, got an up to date FTS?

was it this stuff?   http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LOCTITE-Super...14&_trkparms=72:1301|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1318


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## Joecoral (11 Jan 2009)

As long as its cyanoacrylate based, any superglue is fine to use


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## GreenNeedle (11 Jan 2009)

Just go and get some from Wilko ot Tesco.  That is incredibly overpriced where you have linked.

AC


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## Nick16 (11 Jan 2009)

Joecoral said:
			
		

> As long as its cyanoacrylate based, any superglue is fine to use



 not got a clue what that is, sounds like something from doctor who   

how about this?    http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LOCTITE-super...14&_trkparms=72:1301|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1318

20 bottles for Â£9 inc p+p?


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## Nick16 (11 Jan 2009)

i have just realised there is about 50 different loctite glues and some contain acid and some dont and i dont know which one i need. 

there is all these 

http://www.loctiteproducts.com/products/category.asp?catID=15


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## GreenNeedle (11 Jan 2009)

No need for such research. just buy the cheapest one that you find in your local supermarket's stationery section.

Superglue bonds when it hits water.  This means that when you put superglue on one surface the moment it hits another it will bond.  This is because almost everything in the world will have at least some microscopic amounts of moisture on it from the air!!!.  It cures from the outside so it is pointless to think something will stick better if you use more.  A small amount will cure and harden very quickly.

So use it sparingly.  Let is cure for a few hours.  If in doubt then leave it a seperate container of fresh water for a period of time.

Mine has been in the tank now since 3 O clockish and the shrimps have been all over it and it is not a graveyard!!!

I don't think you are going to need 20 bottles!!!  How many tanks do you have?  You will only be using it for initial sticking of things with hard rhizomes like Anubias and ferns.

If you want several then go to Poundland and they sell packs of 5 small throwaways.  these are small ones that you use and then chuck away after you've finished.  Next time you need to use it you get a fresh one.  Good idea because Superglues often are useless a few days after using because they have been exposed to the air (which contains water!!!)

AC

AC


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## Nick16 (12 Jan 2009)

cool good tips there thanks, when glueing, do youput the plant straight back or do you put it into a bucket fully submerged or just the roots submerged? 

yeah, thing is pound land is about a 40 minute drive there and back, plus parking costs, plus the time it takes me to walk from the car to the shop about another 15 mins so its quite far, i have 3 tanks but my dad uses lots of superglue anyway as im always breaking stuff


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## GreenNeedle (12 Jan 2009)

I took the anubias out just before I did a water change.  After I'd finished I set about attaching them.  they had been out of the tank for about 30 minutes already and I would guess after gluing for a total of an hour or so.

I glued them and let each cure until I could feel it was firm to the stone and then put them into a bowl of water for a few hours to leach out anything that could be on the glue's surface then placed the stones in the tank.

The leaves may die off from drying out too much but they will soon grow new ones.  One of the Rhizomes has no leaves on it anyway!!!

AC


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## Thomas McMillan (12 Jan 2009)

Have I missed something - you're doing a carpet of Anubias, right?


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## GreenNeedle (12 Jan 2009)

Yep.

I remember Tom Barr posting on TFF maybe as far back a year ago, maybe even longer when there was a 'low light carpeting question'

Anubias Barteri v Nana 'petite' was one of his suggestions then (Can't remember what he called it. lol.)

I had this in my first tank which from my 'beginner's knowledge' was still following low light/high light theories and under the light I had (1WPG T8) it was slow.

Then I suggested it to Saintly the other day in one of his journals because I can see his Anubias are growing fast at which point I thought 'hang on, my Anubias grow fast too'.  Put 1+2 together and I got 5 so I thought now I don't believe in low light/high light plants and I know my light is growing plants really well including normal Anubias then surely these will grow   at a reasonable rate as long as I bring them out of the shadows and there you go.

In the space of 6 hours they were rescued from under the shadow of other Anubias and ferns that had overgrown them, glued, and in situ in the front of the tank.  Another experiment maybe but I am quite confident with this one (aren't I always )

I would guess I rescued about 2 portions at AM size so we shall see over the next month how fast they will grow.

AC


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## Thomas McMillan (12 Jan 2009)

That's interesting, I've never heard of a carpet of Anubias before. So you've attached them to pebbles and will the just grow accross the substrate, eventually covering it? 

Got any pics?


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## GreenNeedle (12 Jan 2009)

I will get round to some pictures.  Maybe later in the week.  currently splitting a double glazed window into 2 pieces of glass planning to use 1 as the underside to my 'luminaire' once the LEDs are sorted, then I have to get onto a letter to the airline, threatening to take them to court after refusing to pay any more than flight costs after they left my family and I in Portugal last year.  Gonna be a busy week. lol

The plan with the Anubias is that I have put them on 1cm(ish) pebbles just to hold them down.  As we know Anubias then stretch their roots down to the substrate and therefore by the time they grow sufficiently they should've anchored themselves.

AC


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## GreenNeedle (12 Jan 2009)

Finished the glass quite quickly and waiting for some internet legal advice on the claim so I took some pics.

I'm turning into Saintly picwise these days.  Just without the quality. lol

Forgive the pinkish hue. I didn't bother turning the other tube on for these.

This is a close up so you can see some glue:





And to get a sense of scale against the 'medium' v Nana.  the medium is smaller than the normal Barteri variety that I have been hacking at and selling on:




AC


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## Thomas McMillan (12 Jan 2009)

Nice! It should look amazing when grown in. This has to be one of my favourite tanks of all time, I think it's looking at its best, although I'm sure the best is still to come! Jungle scapes rule.


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## GreenNeedle (12 Jan 2009)

Bad news whilst look in the tank waiting for the legal advice.  Spotted a black cory dead 

However spotted these:




Do these look like Cory eggs or Otos?  Perfectly round, white in colour.  They are about 2mm diameter so way too big for the microrasboras I think.  Could the Corys that has died been laying and then couldn't get the rest of the eggs out hence the death?  I would've expected more eggs from the corys or the Otos but after a thorough look around the tank these 3 are the only ones.

Anyone have any ideas?

AC


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## Mark Evans (12 Jan 2009)

so you use good old super glue for the anubias? god thats gona save me some time! 

hey andy, i think the cherries spawned....i saw a tinetiny one today, defo not one that you gave me   . there shy lill buggers though. dont see them often, but there in there.


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## Thomas McMillan (12 Jan 2009)

I would say they were Cory eggs, I've seen photos of hem before and they look exactly like that! I would put them in a breeding net with an airstone or they might get eaten. Try to raise them yourself!


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## GreenNeedle (12 Jan 2009)

I don't own a breeding net or an airstone 

I may try clipping the little fishing net in there somehow.

AC


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## Egmel (13 Jan 2009)

It's good that they're on a plant rather than on the tank wall, it means you can snip the leaf off and put the whole thing in the net so you don't damage the eggs trying to unstick them.  If you can get a bit of rhizome with the leaf then even better as it will continue to grow in the net rather than dying off and risking infecting the eggs.


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## beeky (13 Jan 2009)

I've always read that white eggs are the fungused ones, otherwise they're amber coloured. Don't know if different fish have different coloured eggs though...like ducks...


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## GreenNeedle (13 Jan 2009)

corys eggs are apparently white.  Not sure wether they are fertile or not.  Still researching but then if I see nothing in 4-5 days then I will already know the answer. lol

AC


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## Egmel (13 Jan 2009)

From the TFF FAQ 


> Fertile eggs will look quite beige in colour, and will develop a darker spot in the middle as hatching becomes near. Infertile eggs will look plain and white/translucent. The eggs should take about 3+ days to hatch, and when they hatch they will be absolutely tiny.


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## GreenNeedle (13 Jan 2009)

_The eggs start off white when laid, whether fertilised or not. Over the next day or so, they change colour. Fertilised eggs become greyish. Unfertilised eggs stay white._

As usual there is so much conflicting info on the web. lol. I'll have to wait and see but they do have a visible dot in the centre of them!!!

Most of the info and pictures I have seen says Corys lay white eggs:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/CatfishesPIX/Callichthyids/Eggs coryd.jpg

You posted after I had already cut the leaf off.  I did however trim off some of the leaf.  Hopefully won't do any harm as the 3 eggs and leaf are in a standard 3 inch 'catching' net and I have bent the handle so it forms a clip on the side 

AC


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## Egmel (13 Jan 2009)

The dot in the centre is a good sign.

Moving the leaf on its own is still better than moving the eggs on their own!

Brownie point on the ingenuity front for modifying a net.  If you don't have an air stone then keep it near the flow (easier in a planted tank where we tend to over filter), it's just to keep the water moving.


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## GreenNeedle (13 Jan 2009)

Its pretty close to the Koralia (not in the output flow!!!) so the water should be pretty good moving through that are.

AC


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## GreenNeedle (17 Jan 2009)

I have 3 wrigglers 

Gonna start feeding little amounts tomorrow.  Hopefully they'll survive

AC


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## Thomas McMillan (17 Jan 2009)

Nice one, Andy! I hope they survive.


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## Egmel (17 Jan 2009)

Congrats, I'll keep my fingers crossed for them.


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## GreenNeedle (17 Jan 2009)

In the words of the Foo Fighters:

_At times like these...._

....I wish I had a better camera and/or better camera skills. lol.  Try singing it.  It will fit into the song if you sing the words fast enough. 

10.1mp but crap at anything as small as that.

They are transparent and probs already 1-2mm but you can't se them unless they are moving.  It's like heat haze moving. lol

AC


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## GreenNeedle (17 Jan 2009)

saintly said:
			
		

> hey andy, i think the cherries spawned....i saw a tinetiny one today, defo not one that you gave me   . there shy lill buggers though. dont see them often, but there in there.



I would guess its the fish you have in there with them making them shy.  Mine tend not to hide at all.  May well be a shrimp predator in there.  tetras/Ram etc?

AC


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## GreenNeedle (13 Feb 2009)

Just a quick update.

Tried to take proper photos here. lol. as you can see from this pic:




I have been informed that the LEDs are actually running at approx 7.45W per series so this is a pic of my 33USG with approx 37W of LED above it!!!  this is the first pic in this journal using the LED lights so you can see the difference by clicking backward a few pages 





AC


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## Thomas McMillan (13 Feb 2009)

Looking amazing, as always. 

I know you're rescaping this, but I find the bit in the middle where u can see right through the stems quite distracting.


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## GreenNeedle (13 Feb 2009)

Thats the bit that annoys me too.

The ferns shade everything and it doesn't grow as quickly as the rest.  Thinking of adding a load more Parva and Wedtii in there to 'complete' the fill.

AC


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## GreenNeedle (1 Mar 2009)

I've just ordered 25 x rasbora espei and therefore this journal will end in the next couple of days (prior to the arrival of the fish. lol)

I will take some pics before taking it down of course.

Fern fans should keep an eye on the for sale section as I shall be retaining only about 10% and selling the rest.  The 10% will then be kept in a much tidier fashion in the new setup which I have yet to think of a name for.

I am all excited now

AC


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## Mark Evans (1 Mar 2009)

onwards and upwards andy, look forward to your next project


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## Steve Smith (1 Mar 2009)

Shame to see it go mate, but good to start afresh 

I'll most definately be keeping my eyes open for ferns mate!  And crypts


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## Thomas McMillan (1 Mar 2009)

Looking forward to it, Andy (both the journal and fern selling )

Rasbora Espei are nice fish, good choice.


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## GreenNeedle (1 Mar 2009)

Steve - Only the ferns are going  I'm afraid.  I'm putting everything else back in completely.  Should be able to get a good fill with the amount that is in there including ones that haven't grown much due to the fern's shadows. lol

AC


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## Jack middleton (1 Mar 2009)

what kind of setup are you going for andy? jungle?


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## GreenNeedle (1 Mar 2009)

Same plants, same hardscape with a few cobbles and pebbles thrown in for good measure.  Still jungle but a little more controlled this time:






AC


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## GreenNeedle (2 Mar 2009)

OK just to tidy this journal up and show some final shots of the scape.

This is how it looked at the finish:







And with the hardscape taken out:




The hardscape cleaned up:




And the plants 'soaking' while I get sorted for the new scape:




Finally all I have to do is get the shrimp out:




And then drain the substrate a little:




Leaving me with this after a tidy up:




This is how much I am taking onto the next scape all sorted.  There was about the same amount that is not going onward and will be sold in the buy/sell/swap section:




So onto the next scape which I have given the title 'Once upon a time at the riverbank' which can be found here:
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5072

AC


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