# Converting a large aquarium - suggestions welcome!



## Darwin88 (27 Apr 2016)

Hi all, it's been a long time since I've posted on the forums, I've just surfed the topics as an when I've needed info. 

Here's my current tank:













The current setup is lots of rock work and wood with a few varieties of Java Ferns under a single TMC aquabar 1000, it's filtered by a 100 litre sump bringing the overall tank volume to 450 litres. 

I want to push forward now and upgrade the lighting, increase the pressurised co2 and change the substrate to a proper planted one, it's currently Wickes block paving sand! 

I've got the co2 system setup already, I've been running it very low as per the low light and plant density. Had no algae issues but the plants haven't shown any significant improvement with the addition of co2 but then it is a very low dose, less than 15ppm. 

I still want to maintain a low light setup with the intention of packing the tank with mixed crypts and keep the Java ferns up high on the rocks/wood. Also maybe a carpeting plant that will do well under lower light. The single TMC aquabar is way under what I need for the above plants, it has very little spread and isn't that bright to look at so imagine the PAR is also too low for what I'll need. 

Question one: Will two TMC gro beam 600's, placed end to end, give me enough light spread to cover the tank, dimmed sufficiently to suit the planting choice, or will there be too many dark spots? The tank is 1500mm long by 450mm wide, 500mm high. 

I don't want to buy more LED units than I need, we all know how expensive they are 

Question two: Substrate! How deep does it need to be for strong, healthy crypt growth? So many differing opinions out there ranging from 2" to 5" and the difference leads to a sizeable increase in cost. I've read about Akadama on the forums, there's some great information but I'm just not a big fan of the colour. Given my slow growing plant choice I'll probably be looking at it for a while before the plants fill out. 

If I can get away with a 2" bed, I'll go for an off the shelf aquarium substrate such as Eco-complete or flora base. Any deeper and I think I'll have to economise and opt for something like Akadama. If that's the case, can anyone suggest a reliable carpeting plant that will cover the substrate fairly fast for a low light, co2 injected tank? I haven't had much luck with hair grass in a similar setup so it probably needs to be something less demanding than that. 

Last question, anyone else run co2 injection on sump filtered tanks? I've eliminated water turbulence in the sump and covered it with glass but even then to reach 30ppm I was running at an uncountable bubble per second rate through an UP inline diffuser. Fortunately I get 6.5kg cylinders for £18 a few miles from where I live but still, it seems excessive. Anyone else have a similar experience or find that to be normal on this size tank? 

Sorry for throwing 3 rather subjective and varying questions all at once but I've drowned in information while planning this and I've reached the point where I just needed to ask some people in the know directly! 

Thanks,

Rich




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## alto (27 Apr 2016)

Darwin88 said:


> 500mm high.


this is where you want 2-3 watt LED's rather than the 0.2 - 0.5 watt emitters offered in most lower priced LED systems - by the time the light reaches substrate, PAR will be much lower than HOT5's

For substrate, I'd suggest Tropica Aquasoil - it's much more resistant to crush/crumble effect than some of the others on the market (I've got the "powder" version in my tanks & even after 18months & several re-scapes, it looks quite like new) & doesn't release ammonia so works better if you want to add fish back or shrimp etc

Eco-complete is a very different type of substrate - look at previous discussions on ukaps

I think your 2inch depth will work fine, most crypts will send lateral roots as well ... there may be some species that won't do as well but Mick.Dk can answer this much better

I don't think you need more than moderate levels of CO2 - you can also look at running lower levels 24/7
Tropica Layout 19

For economy in lights & substrate, just plan on specific planted areas - look at Yo-han's 1000+ 
There are a few people running sumps on planted tanks, it just doesn't come up for discussion much (Tom Barr is one example  )

It's always "better" ie cheaper/easier etc to learn plant growing in smaller tanks, you certainly could benefit by expanding plant purchases with emerse growth propagation, also use this as a way to maintain plant types 

For LED's etc check the classified sections, shop display units etc

Excellent wood in that tank 
- overall a very nice tank ... who was in there?


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## Darwin88 (28 Apr 2016)

Thanks for your comprehensive reply! Much appreciated 

Regarding 2-3 watt emitter LED's, do you or anyone else know if the TMC grobeams have these? I've just been looking at the tech specs on various links but I can't see anything about the emitter wattage. I've read that they are powerful LED's though so I was hoping they would be strong enough.

I hope you're right about 2" substrate, that will save me a lot of money. I've learned from past mistakes that cheaping out causes headaches later but I'm still cautious about overspending if it's not entirely necessary.

The livestock in the tank were all rescued from my dad's, I had to break his tank down and all his fish ended up in mine. There's 8 peppered cory's, 2 yoyo loaches, 1 red tail black shark, 4 Bolivian Rams, 1 Opaline Gourami and a shoal of Celestial Pearl Danio's. I think I'm going to rehome most of the above when I change the substrate out in the next few weeks. I'm a bit picky about fish and most of them don't suit my style! 












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## Darwin88 (28 Apr 2016)

Just read that the grobeam emitters are 2.4w each, sounds like they'll be ok. 


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## ian_m (28 Apr 2016)

One way to estimate the no of GroBeams needed it to work from T5 HO tubes and knowing that a GroBeam 1500 is 2000lumens.

You haven't stated you tank dimensions, but you state volume is 350 litres. Tanks are roughly x cm high by x cm deep by 3x wide, 3x^3 = 350,000cm^3, so x is about 50cm. So assuming 150cm wide.

A 120cm T5 HO tube is 4900 lumen, a typical two tubes over the tank is about 10000lumens.

So you are looking at 5 GroBeam tiles if your tank is 150cm wide, which neatly matches something I read somewhere that said about 1 GroBeam per 30cm tank width.

How about one of these for 150cm wide, only £170, will easily match the GroBeams.
https://www.iquaticsonline.co.uk/un...-universal-4-tube-150cm.html?___store=default


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## markk (28 Apr 2016)

Darwin88 said:


> Hi all, it's been a long time since I've posted on the forums, I've just surfed the topics as an when I've needed info.
> 
> Here's my current tank:
> 
> ...


I use tescos cat litter (aka Akadama) in my main tank. It is much cheaper than other choices and plants are fine...

But - i gave up on my hc carpet after about 9 months. The litter is so light that it is disturbed just too easily. Carpets really need plenty of attention to keep detritus from accumulating in the lower levels and the hc would inevitably shift/lift sooner or later.

If you're still interested in using it, a 30 litre bag will set you back about £11 in petsathome - so very economical.

Cheers, Mark


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## Darwin88 (28 Apr 2016)

ian_m said:


> One way to estimate the no of GroBeams needed it to work from T5 HO tubes and knowing that a GroBeam 1500 is 2000lumens.
> 
> You haven't stated you tank dimensions, but you state volume is 350 litres. Tanks are roughly x cm high by x cm deep by 3x wide, 3x^3 = 350,000cm^3, so x is about 50cm. So assuming 150cm wide.
> 
> ...



Thanks for working that out! It matches with what I'd worked out for a high light tank of my size and the thought of buying 5 tiles at £130 each terrified me! 

I'm set on LED though, I've recently been on a mission in the house replacing all of our light fittings with LED units because I just love those energy savings 

Budget constraints mean I just can't run this tank as a high light LED system. The start up cost is too much, regardless of the energy savings. That's why I'm aiming for a lower light setup with the hope of still being LED, but using less of them to reduce the up front cost.

Thanks for your suggestion though. It's certainly something to consider if just 2-3 grow beams aren't going to cut it.


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## Darwin88 (28 Apr 2016)

markk said:


> I use tescos cat litter (aka Akadama) in my main tank. It is much cheaper than other choices and plants are fine...
> 
> But - i gave up on my hc carpet after about 9 months. The litter is so light that it is disturbed just too easily. Carpets really need plenty of attention to keep detritus from accumulating in the lower levels and the hc would inevitably shift/lift sooner or later.
> 
> ...



Thanks Mark, which brand is it from pets at home? I've read about using Tesco's cat litter but the only Tesco I have near me is tiny and doesn't stock it. We have a big P@H though. 

Did you use anything underneath it like osmocote or peat?

Thanks


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## markk (28 Apr 2016)

Darwin88 said:


> Thanks Mark, which brand is it from pets at home? I've read about using Tesco's cat litter but the only Tesco I have near me is tiny and doesn't stock it. We have a big P@H though.
> 
> Did you use anything underneath it like osmocote or peat?
> 
> Thanks


I think this is it - but check! You'll need to wash it to get rid of the perfume

http://www.petsathome.com/shop/en/p...3--1/lightweight-non-clumping-pink-cat-litter

I did use osmocote at startup but to be honest haven't touched it since (about 15 months now) - I'm sure my crypts would appreciate it hough.

Regards, Mark


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## Darwin88 (28 Apr 2016)

Thanks Mark, that's very helpful. It's definitely going on the shortlist. Could save me a fortune!


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## EdwinK (28 Apr 2016)

Almost all of the popular crypts can be grown "under the sofa" so I would not worry too much about the PAR and stuff like this. Your plant choice is excellent for low light, slow growing tank and you should not wonder that CO2 doesn't improve a thing because plants are slow and it just not noticeable.
In that kind of setup substrate should be priority number one. With crypts, anubias, microsoriums, bolbitis you could try going with your current light and if things doesn't work - start thinking about the new light then.


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## Darwin88 (28 Apr 2016)

EdwinK said:


> Almost all of the popular crypts can be grown "under the sofa" so I would not worry too much about the PAR and stuff like this. Your plant choice is excellent for low light, slow growing tank and you should not wonder that CO2 doesn't improve a thing because plants are slow and it just not noticeable.
> In that kind of setup substrate should be priority number one. With crypts, anubias, microsoriums, bolbitis you could try going with your current light and if things doesn't work - start thinking about the new light then.



Thanks for you input. I would love to think that my current lighting could grow all these plants but I'm sure it won't! The Java ferns have been under that light for months and I haven't seen any new growth at all, not that I can tell at least. Having said that, it's not like they're dying either.

I had planned to do the substrate first and add the lighting second. I wasn't going to plant up until the lighting was set up, do you really think light penetration will be enough in this 500mm high tank?


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## ian_m (28 Apr 2016)

Darwin88 said:


> I'm set on LED though, I've recently been on a mission in the house replacing all of our light fittings with LED units because I just love those energy savings


Of course most fluorescent tubes are higher efficiency. The TMC tiles quote 77lumen/Watt where as T5 HO tubes are 108lumens/Watt, 40% more efficient, but compared to 10lumens/Watt for an old tungsten bulb.

LED's are getting much better "sexy press" at the moment, pushing out the more efficient and less profit making fluorescent tubes of course.


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## Darwin88 (28 Apr 2016)

ian_m said:


> Of course most fluorescent tubes are higher efficiency. The TMC tiles quote 77lumen/Watt where as T5 HO tubes are 108lumens/Watt, 40% more efficient, but compared to 10lumens/Watt for an old tungsten bulb.
> 
> LED's are getting much better "sexy press" at the moment, pushing out the more efficient and less profit making fluorescent tubes of course.



I see your point but there's the tube replacement cost to factor in too. Tubes long enough for this aquarium are going to cost approx £20 each, in a 4 tube luminaire that's £80 per set, replaced once per year I'd be spending £400 over 5 years to light this tank, not including the initial outlay for the luminaire. I'm sure the grobeams have a 5 year warranty on them meaning if I spent £200 on grobeams and controller I'm guaranteed to get at least 5 years out of them. With sufficient cooling the life expectancy is plenty in excess of this. That's what leans me towards LED's over traditional options. 

However, if I needed 4 or more grobeams to run this tank properly, I'm looking at a huge start up cost with no real future savings over T5's.

I'm looking for people's thoughts on my chances of success with two grobeams for this low light setup, mostly Cryptocorynes, Anubias and Microsorum. 

If the general consensus is no, not likely, then I shall certainly respect your advice and probably go down the tradition T5 route. Thank for your help!


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## ian_m (28 Apr 2016)

Darwin88 said:


> I see your point but there's the tube replacement cost to factor in too.


What tube replacement factor ? Have you been talking to your local fish shop, who handily will sell you replacement tubes at £20 each every year ???

Below is the lumen maintenance curve of a T5 tubes, 12hours on 12hours off. Only at 85% brightness after 40,000hours,4.5 years.


 
Below tube on right is 30 months old and one on left is 6 months old...and the difference is...


 

Anyway if you insist you must change your tubes every year, these are equally as good at £2.89 each when not bought from a fish shop. Provide light for plants job done.
http://www.lampspecs.co.uk/Light-Bulbs-Tubes/860-and-865-Daylight_14/T5-54-Watt-865-Osram

Obviously LED's will outlast T5 tubes, maybe 50,000 to 80,000 hours to 80% brightness, but I bet the electronics won't.


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## EdwinK (28 Apr 2016)

Darwin88 said:


> The Java ferns have been under that light for months and I haven't seen any new growth at all



In that case light is not a problem. You need to "fix" your water.



Darwin88 said:


> do you really think light penetration will be enough in this 500 mm high tank



For plants you have chosen - yes, for other plants - no.

And ian_m is absolutely right about T5 replacements. I have some Giesemann's about 10 years old and plants can't tell the difference.


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## Darwin88 (28 Apr 2016)

ian_m said:


> What tube replacement factor ? Have you been talking to your local fish shop, who handily will sell you replacement tubes at £20 each every year ???
> 
> Below is the lumen maintenance curve of a T5 tubes, 12hours on 12hours off. Only at 85% brightness after 40,000hours,4.5 years.
> 
> ...



Hehe you're quite the LED sceptic aren't you?!  Not a problem, I don't like to be ripped off, if I can avoid being a captive audience and find a cheaper solution to a problem made by hobby marketers, then I will.

I've always read on forums that it's good practice to replace the tubes every 12 months, on non-planted tanks I've had tubes last several years but they were non-planted so I can't vouch for their diminishing output if any at all. We learn from others so this is all good advice! 

As for regular domestic tubes being good enough for plants? Is that true? If it is, then this is a revelation! I used to loath spending £20 on light tubes and that's another thing that put me of fluorescents.

I'm swaying on the fence now. One thing though, looking at the iquatics luminaire you linked me to, which I now realise comes with tubes which is handy, wouldn't that be far too much light for this kind of setup and would it be asking for algae? Or would it just be a case of ramping up co2 and ferts?


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## EdwinK (28 Apr 2016)

I think with that kit you should be able to run just two lamps at the time.


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## Darwin88 (28 Apr 2016)

EdwinK said:


> I think with that kit you should be able to run just two lamps at the time.



It actually comes as a two tube variant:

https://www.iquaticsonline.co.uk/aq...g/iquatics-aqualumi-universal-twin-150cm.html


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## EdwinK (28 Apr 2016)

Or as 4 as is in ian_m's link. I think it is more versatile option.


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## ian_m (28 Apr 2016)

Darwin88 said:


> Hehe you're quite the LED sceptic aren't you?!


Its just that people go banging on about the wonderfulness & efficiency of their LED lighting decisions, failing to realise more efficient lighting has been around for years. I have only just come back to using LED lights in my house (currently only 5 LED bulbs, out of 52 bulbs) after being an early whole house "LED conversion'ist" and paying the price. Basically the LED fixtures failed or got uselessly dim. Got money back on most, B&Q led bulbs and on-line purchases, but wasted more money than I should have saved !!!



Darwin88 said:


> As for regular domestic tubes being good enough for plants?


Plants need a thing called light to photosynthesise and grow . Fluorescent tubes give out light regardless if they are for use in your house or fish tank. Plants to a first approximation don't require any special spectrum, just choose tubes that make your plants look good to your eyes. If you are happy, plants will be happy.

Look at the pictures here and choose the type of tube that you think will make your plants look good.
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/cheap-ho-t5-fluorescent-tubes-update-with-photos.555/

Personally using a too lower temperature tube (yellow, warm white etc) makes the plants look too yellow and using a too higher temperature 8,000K and above (marine actinic etc) makes the plants look whitish and washed out.

I have the iQuatics 4 tube on my Vision 180. I put in two Juwel High Lite tubes as I think my plants looked better with mixture of tropical and high lite (day light) tubes. You can have either 2 tubes or 4 tubes on.
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/lighting-suggestions-for-juwel-vision-180.39407/#post-432875

Note that Juwel aquarium tube lengths are a different length than standard tube length and do cost more.


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## Darwin88 (28 Apr 2016)

EdwinK said:


> Or as 4 as is in ian_m's link. I think it is more versatile option.



There isn't a huge cost difference either so you're probably right. It comes supplied with tubes, options are marine white or tropical.

How do plants fare under marine white light? I ask because I've had tropical tubes before that are really pink in colour that I find a bit too much. If domestic tubes are sufficient for plant growth too then I'm guessing the difference is negligible and it's just down to personal preference?


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## Darwin88 (28 Apr 2016)

ian_m said:


> Its just that people go banging on about the wonderfulness & efficiency of their LED lighting decisions, failing to realise more efficient lighting has been around for years. I have only just come back to using LED lights in my house (currently only 5 LED bulbs, out of 52 bulbs) after being an early whole house "LED conversion'ist" and paying the price. Basically the LED fixtures failed or got uselessly dim. Got money back on most, B&Q led bulbs and on-line purchases, but wasted more money than I should have saved !!!
> 
> Plants need a thing called light to photosynthesise and grow . Fluorescent tubes give out light regardless if they are for use in your house or fish tank. Plants to a first approximation don't require any special spectrum, just choose tubes that make your plants look good to your eyes. If you are happy, plants will be happy.
> 
> ...



I missed that post when I asked the above question. That's really helpful stuff Ian, thank you. I'm genuinely considering this as an option now. It's far cheaper than the LED option in that this would give hands down full coverage of the tank whereas the same cost LED application would be a bit of a guessing game.

House lighting, I replaced all mine when I plastered over all the Artex ceilings, so far so good after 2 years. They're all built in sealed units that don't have replaceable bulbs so if it goes, the whole thing has to be replaced. They came with a 7 year guarantee which reassured me they'd be fine. The future will hold the answers!


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## ian_m (28 Apr 2016)

Darwin88 said:


> How do plants fare under marine white light ?


Plants will have no problems with marine white light. You will have problems as the plants will look washed out and not very green.



Darwin88 said:


> I ask because I've had tropical tubes before that are really pink in colour that I find a bit too much


This is what I found with the supplied iQuatics tubes, which is why I put in two day light tubes.

I think your light choice (LED or T5 tube) now depends on how you want your total setup to look (and how thick your wallet is )

Are you going to hang the lights using a ceiling suspension kit ?

Are the lights going to rest on the rim of your tank ?

With LED (TMC tiles) you will need a controller, 5 tiles full on will melt all plants to algae of not careful.

LED tiles if mounted on a "sexy mounting" can look very modern and look the "biz".

With 4 tubes of T5 start with 2 tubes, with reflectors bent round to deflect light from the tank. Then straighten reflectors and add more tubes as your tank settles in and you get control of your tank.


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## Darwin88 (28 Apr 2016)

ian_m said:


> Plants will have no problems with marine white light. You will have problems as the plants will look washed out and not very green.
> 
> This is what I found with the supplied iQuatics tubes, which is why I put in two day light tubes.
> 
> ...



If I go for the iquatic, I'll probably choose two marine white/two tropical and see what the combination looks like. Worse case scenario is to do as you have done and swap out the tubes.

I prefer a sealed hood so I'm planning on using acrylic to make a water proof lid with the lighting inside. I'd planned to mount LED's so that the heatsinks were sticking through the hood to aid heat dispersion. The t5's would have to be completely inside the hood which leads to overheating as a consideration. 

I love the LED shimmer, but that's pointless if I can't maintain healthy plant growth by not having enough LEDs as 5 tiles is out of my budget. 

You mentioned the Jewel style T5 tubes were a different size and thus I'm captive to their prices - I'm struggling to find out from the iquatics website if all of their fittings are designed to take these Jewel style tubes? Are yours the Jewel style?

Thanks


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## ian_m (28 Apr 2016)

Darwin88 said:


> Are yours the Jewel style?


As my iQuatics unit is for a Juwel Vision 180 it takes 742mm 35W Juwel length tubes.

Hmm...just looking on their it appears all the units take Juwel sized tubes, certainly the 100cm, 120cm and 150cm units do.

The "standard" sized T5 tubes they sell are for the pedant T5 lighting units.


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## Darwin88 (28 Apr 2016)

ian_m said:


> As my iQuatics unit is for a Juwel Vision 180 it takes 742mm 35W Juwel length tubes.
> 
> Hmm...just looking on their it appears all the units take Juwel sized tubes, certainly the 100cm, 120cm and 150cm units do.
> 
> The "standard" sized T5 tubes they sell are for the pedant T5 lighting units.



Yeah that's as much as I could gather too. I'll ask them directly, it keeps offering up a chat box so I might as well use it! 

Thanks again


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## Darwin88 (28 Apr 2016)

ian_m said:


> Hmm...just looking on their it appears all the units take Juwel sized tubes, certainly the 100cm, 120cm and 150cm units do.



You're right. And they won't have stock back in for 6 weeks...

Can't wait that long, I've been planning for weeks already and I'm eager to get going. Back to the drawing board!


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## ian_m (28 Apr 2016)

Darwin88 said:


> And they won't have stock back in for 6 weeks...


Bum.

What about these, available in up to 6 tubes and standard length tubes.
http://www.allpondsolutions.co.uk/aquarium/aquarium-lighting/aquarium-t5-lighting/

Or these. These are about 1 1/2 T5 HO brightness, but not cheap.
http://www.allpondsolutions.co.uk/aquarium/aquarium-lighting/aquatlantis-led-lighting/

What about making your own to your own specification ?
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/lets-led.41248/
Bought kit of parts from
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/pro...led-grow-lighting-90w/504331_32317689774.html


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## Darwin88 (28 Apr 2016)

ian_m said:


> Bum.
> 
> What about these, available in up to 6 tubes and standard length tubes.
> http://www.allpondsolutions.co.uk/aquarium/aquarium-lighting/aquarium-t5-lighting/
> ...



Wow, thanks for the links 

I'd just got into looking at this:

https://www.iquaticsonline.co.uk/t5...-x-54w-t5-complete-aquarium-lighting-kit.html

Looking at my tank my pipe work would prevent me from using the iquatics bar anyway:









I can't move the pipes, they're very much stuck to that placement. I think I'd be better off using a controller and just positioning the tubes around the pipe work. 

I don't want a raised luminaire as where we sit to watch TV we'd have the light spill on our peripheral at all times.

Using a controller I'd sit the tubes on the brace bars, I just worry that when I make an acrylic hood, would the heat warp or even melt it? I'd hoped to have a sealed hood to keep evaporation down and to keep more co2 in the water. Hmm.


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## alto (28 Apr 2016)

A worthwhile read on lighting that discusses PUR, PAR & other useful concepts

*PUR, PAS, PAR in Aquarium Reef/Planted Lighting; LED Wavelengths*
it's not the best format but the article includes some links

I have one tank with "new" LED lighting & another with a T5 luminaire, both grow plants (both tanks are ~55cm height) - I've come to much prefer the aesthetics/versatility/convenience of the LED
If you want a ground cover plant, lighting will need an upgrade, your Aquabar 1000 utilizes 0.4watt LED's (likely white Samsung) & I suspect that even most crypts will grow rather slowly with this light as PAR at substrate will be (very?) low.
While most crypts will tolerate poor light & no CO2, almost all respond favorably to higher energy systems  

You might look at Chris Jackson's *Lazy Asian Biotope* for inspiration 

If you're a decent DIY sort, look at
Supercoley's DIY LED Luminaire Mk III
- there are a few excellent DIY LED topics worth searching out




ian_m said:


> With LED (TMC tiles) you will need a controller, 5 tiles full on will melt all plants to algae of not careful.


I'm a bit confused about this statement as it's also mentioned that the T5's are higher lumen, more efficient etc - so why would LED require a controller (I believe there is a fairly economical dimmer option that lacks the more sophisticated programming options) and the T5 systems, not  
(likely I missed the T5 controller/dimmer link  )



My suggestion: begin by spending the $$ on substrate that you like to look at, that you like the planting characteristics of ... you can always try adding additional Aquabars (need to track down old stock as these have been discontinued by TMC) or look into the Aquabar T series
Also look at buying used lighting systems


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## ian_m (28 Apr 2016)

Darwin88 said:


> Using a controller I'd sit the tubes on the brace bars, I just worry that when I make an acrylic hood, would the heat warp or even melt it? I'd hoped to have a sealed hood to keep evaporation down and to keep more co2 in the water. Hmm.


You can't sit the tubes on the brace bars, the tubes run hot and may damage the bars and/or the tubes don't like "cold spots". But the iQuatics sets have clips on their tube holders that should hold the tubes clear of touching anything.

The sealed hood will stop evaporation, but won't really have any affect on CO2 unless you can make the hood 100% air tight, but then if you do may run into lack of oxygen problems. You need water surface ripple to allow excess CO2 to escape at night, but not so fast that you can't keep it in the water during the lights on time and also allow oxygen from the air to dissolve

Like the tank.



alto said:


> I'm a bit confused about this statement as it's also mentioned that the T5's are higher lumen, more efficient etc - so why would LED require a controller (I believe there is a fairly economical dimmer option that lacks the more sophisticated programming options) and the T5 systems, not
> (likely I missed the T5 controller/dimmer link  )


It is because it is easier to dim T5's "mechanically" by rotating reflectors, adding foil rings, using sticky tape, using 2 tubes, using darkened plastic sheets etc things that aren't really possible with the LED tiles. If you just used 2 tiles out of 5 you would still get algae & melting plants under those tiles and no growth under the off tiles.


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## alto (28 Apr 2016)

ian_m said:


> You need water surface ripple to allow excess CO2 to escape at night, but not so fast that you can't keep it in the water during the lights on time and also allow oxygen from the air to dissolve


Won't the sump maintain oxygen levels?


Darwin88 said:


> I've eliminated water turbulence in the sump and covered it with glass but even then to reach 30ppm I was running at an uncountable bubble per second rate through an UP inline diffuser.


Under usual running setup it would seem that tank's gas exchange is considerable.




ian_m said:


> It is because it is easier to dim T5's "mechanically" by rotating reflectors, adding foil rings, using sticky tape, using 2 tubes, using darkened plastic sheets etc things that aren't really possible with the LED tiles. If you just used 2 tiles out of 5 you would still get algae & melting plants under those tiles and no growth under the off tiles.



Not convinced that I can't just as easily mechanically dim LED's  - slightly different mechanics but not so impossible


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## Yo-han (28 Apr 2016)

As I've a very similar tank as already mentioned in one of the first posts (1000L with sump and recently switched to LED from T5) I think I can give my two cents...
First off the CO2, I compared the gram/100L/day usage from my old tank (without sump but a little more light) with my new tank with CO2 and I use less with the sump. It still seems like a lot to use 3kg a month, but gram/100L/day is less than 10 which is nice I think. I do use reactors to dissolve 100%

About the light, I measured PAR with my T5 and LED. 324W T5 with individual reflectors gave the same PAR as 240W LED @80-85%. So in my case it was more economical. I did measure PAR from different bulbs and the difference was huge. You can easily double PAR, one bulb compared to another. What surprised me most was that full spectrum bulbs (Osram and Philips 9xx series) had lower PAR than the 8xx series.
About the TMC, I used the bars (old 5 LEDs version) and the 1500 tiles. Two 1500 tiles are enough to grow 95% of the plants. On a 150cm tank with only Cryptos and ferns you can use two but the spread won't be very nice so you'll better use 3. That would be about 4-6 aquabeam 600 bars, with 4 being enough for these plants and 6 when you want to grow everything.

Whatever you pick, pick that what looks most beautiful to your eyes! LED slimmer, or T5 light, I don't see much difference in growth in my tank except that in my case the LEDs are more efficient. Two of the LED units I use would be enough for your tank but you need to order a custom made with 120 degree optics when you want it in your hood.  Check out my journal for pictures


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## Yo-han (29 Apr 2016)

Yo-han said:


> That would be about 4-6 aquabeam 600 bars, with 4 being enough for these plants and 6 when you want to grow everything.



Couldn't edit my post anymore but I saw you use aquabar 1000. So using 3 in total would be more than enough for your plans.


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## Darwin88 (29 Apr 2016)

alto said:


> A worthwhile read on lighting that discusses PUR, PAR & other useful concepts



Thanks Alto, that's good reading material.



ian_m said:


> You can't sit the tubes on the brace bars, the tubes run hot and may damage the bars and/or the tubes don't like "cold spots". But the iQuatics sets have clips on their tube holders that should hold the tubes clear of touching anything.



I'd planned to use the metal clips but fix those 'upside down' to the brace bars, raising them up off the glass. Should I have any concerns about the heat transfer through the clips and onto the brace bars?



Yo-han said:


> Check out my journal for pictures



Thanks Yo-han, yes I followed the link to your journal and read through it, very interesting stuff! What a great tank I might add. I might have to pick your brain on sump advice at a later date . The aquabar's have been discontinued I believe but there might be old stock lying around. It's something to add to the growing list of lighting considerations 

Thanks to all of you for your lighting advice, I feel like I've been full circle from LED to T5's, which has led me to decide that I still need to do more research before I commit it either one! So, following alto's advice:


alto said:


> My suggestion: begin by spending the $$ on substrate that you like to look at, that you like the planting characteristics of ...



I'm going to concentrate on substrate first. I've got past the look of some of the economy options after reading through other threads and seeing how effective they look when mature. I like this thread in particular:

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/akadama-or-moler-clay.26690/

Which makes use of this:

http://www.kaizenbonsai.com/fine-grain-moler-terramol-bonsai-soil

I love the look of it, I love the price of it but I wonder how this fares in the long term. Has anyone used this substrate and for how long? What do think of it?


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## ian_m (29 Apr 2016)

Of course, the expert Mr Farmer is now using JBL substrate in his aquascapes.

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/...ideal-aquascaping-aquarium.41133/#post-443477

Photographic proof of JBL being used....


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## Darwin88 (29 Apr 2016)

ian_m said:


> Of course, the expert Mr Farmer is now using JBL substrate in his aquascapes.
> 
> http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/...ideal-aquascaping-aquarium.41133/#post-443477
> 
> Photographic proof of JBL being used....



Sorry Ian, not sure if I missed something here! How does this JBL pro soil relate to the bonzai moler clay I mentioned? Forgive me if I'm being stupid!


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## ian_m (29 Apr 2016)

Darwin88 said:


> Sorry Ian, not sure if I missed something here! How does this JBL pro soil relate to the bonzai moler clay I mentioned?


Sorry, it doesn't, it is just another substrate suggestion.


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## Darwin88 (29 Apr 2016)

ian_m said:


> Sorry, it doesn't, it is just another substrate suggestion.



Ah, sorry, I read it wrong I think. Thanks!


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## EdwinK (29 Apr 2016)

Darwin88 said:


> economy options



Don't go the economy way please. It is the only thing you will be unable to change in the future without a restart.


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## Darwin88 (29 Apr 2016)

EdwinK said:


> Don't go the economy way please. It is the only thing you will be unable to change in the future without a restart.



I'm afraid I've got to consider it. If I was setting up a small planted tank, I wouldn't bat an eyelid at buying the right stuff. But a tank footprint of 1500mm X 450mm with a substrate depth of 50mm works out as just over 30 litres. 

30 litres of the previously mentioned hard moler clay comes to £22 including delivery. Compare that to the price of the proper stuff and it's vastly cheaper. 

I'm hoping to find out what the difference between this and specialist planted aquarium substrates is. It has a decent CEC, it doesn't contain any additives or chemicals and it shares a similar structure to planted substrates.

Is it just the label and it's intended use that creates this price difference? 

What substrate do you use? 

Thanks


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## EdwinK (29 Apr 2016)

I have a slightly bigger tank - 1500x500 mm. What bothers me most about all clay based substrates is colour. They have high CEC, that is true, but they do not have water softening and pH adjusting capabilities. In first weeks or months they soak almost every fertilizer you add and then one day suddenly start to release them. So problems are preprogrammed if you are not careful enough. I started with AS and then decided to go economy way with all kind of substrates (plain gravel, gravel with peat, Akadama, JBL Manado, Ebi) but decided to stick with AS because of things mentioned above.


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## Darwin88 (29 Apr 2016)

EdwinK said:


> I have a slightly bigger tank - 1500x500 mm. What bothers me most about all clay based substrates is colour. They have high CEC, that is true, but they do not have water softening and pH adjusting capabilities. In first weeks or months they soak almost every fertilizer you add and then one day suddenly start to release them. So problems are preprogrammed if you are not careful enough. I started with AS and then decided to go economy way with all kind of substrates (plain gravel, gravel with peat, Akadama, JBL Manado, Ebi) but decided to stick with AS because of things mentioned above.



Thanks for that. I'm going to read deeply into it and try to dig up more information, I'm not rushing into buying anything until I've weighed up the pros and cons. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on it though.


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## Lindy (29 Apr 2016)

Hi, I am in the middle of setting up a tank similar to yours. It is 150x60x60cm and had a sump. I blocked off the sump and will be using external filters instead. Lighting wise I looked at lots of options. One of our members (DTL) has the same size tank and runs 2 of the 100cm aquabars on it for his low tech tank. I decided to try DSUNY leds as I liked how they could be programmed for sunrise/sunset etc and 4 channels for getting the colour they way you want it. Your Java fern probably is growing but it is so stealthy you only notice the plant has doubled in size when you take it out. Many folk use akadama and cat litter and love it. If you don't like the colour you could always have sand at the front. I've chosen pool filter sand and must say I love the colour and grain size.


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## ian_m (29 Apr 2016)

EdwinK said:


> Don't go the economy way please.


I will vouch for that as well.

I now wish I had bought a better quality substrate, than the Fluval Stratum stuff I have now as I feel it is too light. It was also much cheaper. First problem is it won't stay banked, the water movement within the tank meant any banking, despite using dividers and rocks means it always washes itself to flat. 2nd issue is as it is lighter it makes planting harder, the plants easily tend to float free when inserted with tweezers and things like HC carpets are a constantly uprooting, a right pain.

Definitely not as dense as Ada Aqua Soil and the JBL substrate both of which I have had a go planting in, at planted tank setup demos. With these expensive substrates the plants were far far easier to plant when placed with tweezers, and when tank was full and flowing the plants did not float free.

Too late for me now.

I suspect your estimate of 30l and about 50% out, especially if you intend to have any banking of the substrate....I ended up using x2 the amount of substrate I initially estimated. You can always put a layer of sand (with ferts in it ?) underneath to save costs.


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## Darwin88 (29 Apr 2016)

ian_m said:


> I suspect your estimate of 30l and about 50% out, especially if you intend to have any banking of the substrate....I ended up using x2 the amount of substrate I initially estimated. You can always put a layer of sand (with ferts in it ?) underneath to save costs.



A huge chunk of the tank footprint is taken up by rock, I have a number of large rocks in there at the moment and I'm going to leave those is place, so they would displace the substrate somewhat stretching it further.

Wouldn't a base of sand become compact and stagnant?


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## ian_m (29 Apr 2016)

Darwin88 said:


> Wouldn't a base of sand become compact and stagnant?


No idea. I assume it isn't a problem, as my fish & plants are still alive. Many people do this, including filling tights with sand to act as infill for banked scapes.


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## Wisey (29 Apr 2016)

ian_m said:


> No idea. I assume it isn't a problem, as my fish & plants are still alive. Many people do this, including filling tights with sand to act as infill for banked scapes.



I used tights filled with cheap pea shingle to build up the height at the back of my scape, worth considering if you want any higher sections. Can also act like a cushion to put hardscape on as you can see in the first page or two of my journal linked below. The only mistake I made was I tied them so tight that my bogwood sat on it, rather than embedding in to it for more stability.


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## Darwin88 (29 Apr 2016)

Now we're discussing real planting substrates again, what's the consensus on Caribsea Eco-complete? Comes up a lot on the forums but very mixed opinions about it? I ask because it seems to be the most economical to buy at £25 per 9 litres. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Darwin88 (29 Apr 2016)

Darwin88 said:


> Now we're discussing real planting substrates again, what's the consensus on Caribsea Eco-complete? Comes up a lot on the forums but very mixed opinions about it? I ask because it seems to be the most economical to buy at £25 per 9 litres.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I've talked myself out of this one, not nutrient rich enough for crypts apparently. Am I making this overly complex? Or is choosing the right substrate this complicated for everyone?!


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## Wisey (29 Apr 2016)

Darwin88 said:


> I've talked myself out of this one, not nutrient rich enough for crypts apparently. Am I making this overly complex? Or is choosing the right substrate this complicated for everyone?!



Before my rescape I was using Tropica plant growth substrate capped with Unipac sand. My Crypts did not grow well at all, they seemed healthy, but very small. When I rescaped I therefore decided to try a nutrient rich substrate, Tropica Aqua Soil (Didn't go ADA as I wanted to put fish back in so didnt want the amonia leaching substrate). My Crypts are double the size, if not more. Thats with the same level of EI dosing as before, a little more light admittedly, but I am sure the substrate has made a huge difference.

As people have said, you can mess around with other thigns afterwards, but changing the substrate means starting from scratch. Defo invest in a decent substrate.


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## Darwin88 (29 Apr 2016)

Wisey said:


> Before my rescape I was using Tropica plant growth substrate capped with Unipac sand. My Crypts did not grow well at all, they seemed healthy, but very small. When I rescaped I therefore decided to try a nutrient rich substrate, Tropica Aqua Soil (Didn't go ADA as I wanted to put fish back in so didnt want the amonia leaching substrate). My Crypts are double the size, if not more. Thats with the same level of EI dosing as before, a little more light admittedly, but I am sure the substrate has made a huge difference.
> 
> As people have said, you can mess around with other thigns afterwards, but changing the substrate means starting from scratch. Defo invest in a decent substrate.



I'm looking at Aqua soil Amazonia now, it's actually not too badly priced, I had it in my head that it was like £50 a bag. At £27 a bag from TGM, I could do away with all the doubts and be happy. 

But then I'll alway look at clay based cat litter type substrates and think - I could have saved myself £100+ by not paying for a label.


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## Wisey (29 Apr 2016)

Yeah, just don't bother buying all the snake oil ADA powders and stuff to put under it, really no need to waste your money on that stuff.


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## Wisey (29 Apr 2016)

Oh, and if you are worried about spending an extra £100, this is not the hobby for you, haha


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## Darwin88 (29 Apr 2016)

Wisey said:


> Oh, and if you are worried about spending an extra £100, this is not the hobby for you, haha



Haha! I'm not allowed to throw money away anymore, we've got our first baby on the way and apparently they're expensive!


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## ian_m (29 Apr 2016)

Darwin88 said:


> Haha! I'm not allowed to throw money away anymore, we've got our first baby on the way and apparently they're expensive!


I am sorry to poop your bubble but in pictures

What you are expecting...



 

What will happen in practice...


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## Darwin88 (29 Apr 2016)

I'm not expecting anything else  I'm sure it'll be a little bundle of joy that will change our lives forever....but it won't stop me grumbling when my aquariums have to make do with economy options while our child rides around in luxury designer prams!


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## Wisey (29 Apr 2016)

Haha, best wishes for the new addition to the family! My fish and shrimps are my kids at the moment, although Mrs Wisey gives me a strange look when I say that. We're getting married in August, so have the real kids to look forward to at some point.


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## Lindy (29 Apr 2016)

I hate to say it but if there is a baby due soon I wouldn't set this tank up until baby is at least 6mths old and you have some sort of routine. You are going to be more tired than you could ever imagine and your tank will get neglected and end up a mess. I would recommend ada amazonia for the few extra £ a bag it is well worth it.


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## EdwinK (29 Apr 2016)

Lindy is absolutely right. My both tanks were forgotten for more than six months after son was born.


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## Darwin88 (29 Apr 2016)

Eep...thanks for the heads up guys...

I haven't been without at least one tank running for 7 or more years, I lived in Scotland for a year while managing to keep a 200 litre tank running in Yorkshire, travelled home every two weeks just to do a water change. 700 mile round trip for the fish  I'm prepared for the challenge. If anything, it'll be escape surely? A little tiny bit of me time when I'm not cleaning baby vom out of my clothes 


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## ian_m (3 May 2016)

Now you have revealed a very important fact, child arrival, you should be aiming you tank completely the other way, low light, low speed growth, very few water changes, keep it simple s....d (KISS) etc as your son/daughter will only be young once, yet your tank will always be there....

Though, if you are awake long enough, there is nothing to stop you dreaming and costing and working out timings for your future tank when your son/daughter is 18 and leaves home....


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## Wisey (3 May 2016)

ian_m said:


> Now you have revealed a very important fact, child arrival, you should be aiming you tank completely the other way, low light, low speed growth, very few water changes, keep it simple s....d (KISS) etc as your son/daughter will only be young once, yet your tank will always be there....
> 
> Though, if you are awake long enough, there is nothing to stop you dreaming and costing and working out timings for your future tank when your son/daughter is 18 and leaves home....



Or if the current property market trends continue, when they leave home at 48


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## Darwin88 (3 May 2016)

Wisey said:


> Or if the current property market trends continue, when they leave home at 48



Don't frighten me more than I already am...


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## Darwin88 (3 May 2016)

ian_m said:


> Now you have revealed a very important fact, child arrival, you should be aiming you tank completely the other way, low light, low speed growth, very few water changes, keep it simple s....d (KISS) etc as your son/daughter will only be young once, yet your tank will always be there....
> 
> Though, if you are awake long enough, there is nothing to stop you dreaming and costing and working out timings for your future tank when your son/daughter is 18 and leaves home....



Hehe I appreciate your concerns. It always was aimed at being a low maintenance tank for crypts and other slow growers.

Water changes are not a problem, I drilled an overflow in the sump that drains water through the external house wall and onto my raspberry's that grow there. All I do is pump freshwater into the tank and older water is displaced via the overflow and boom, I've refreshed the aquarium water and fed my fruit with fish manure! 

The whole process takes no more than 30 minutes and is virtually effortless, half that time I leave the water pumping into the tank and go off to do something else. 

If I can't maintain a hobby just because I'm a parent, then I'll be doing something wrong. Half my friends are parents and it hasn't stopped them enjoying the things they did before kids. My hobby happens to be in my own home that can be done in a few spare hours here and there, I'm sure it won't be a problem! 

However, if I'm posting on here in a years time about my tank being out of control and unmanageable, I'll eat my hat!


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