# Fish room



## Rabbit229 (19 Aug 2015)

Hi all I've got a spare room in my basement so why the devil not convert it to a fish room!

It already hads a stand for a row of fish tanks. The walls just needs plaster boarding and then plastering.

Thinking of having a row of 4 tanks 3ft x 15" x 15" with drill holes feeding in to a large sump.

Any of you guys got any idea or photo of how I can run all 4 tanks to one sump


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## Wizard (19 Aug 2015)

Depends how u set ur tanks up ....but that's gonna be one big sump ....ur main problem is gonna be flow through the sump , unless you use floating media ? , some nice plumbing work would do the trick 

If I had the room and was going to do a good setup , I'd have the tanks flowing into each other with a pre filter between each tank , then into a sump to be fully filtered and pumped back to the start of the system , ideally gravity fed so I'd only need 1 pump


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## Rabbit229 (19 Aug 2015)

I like it" but the problem I have with this is that the tanks will have to be full at all times.

The fish I'm thinking of breeding is L26 and I'm understanding that the tanks are kept half full and to trigger breeding you need to increase water lever with softer water. I may be wrong!
Using this method how would a sump system work? Can't get my head around it


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## Edvet (19 Aug 2015)

One sump for many tanks can work. I have been at many breeders who do this. Basicallly you pump from the filter in the tank, and gravity takes the surplus back to the filter. You can use a hole in one side to feed the overflow or use a pipe standing on a hole in the bottom. The last method will give you a way to adjustt waterheigt. In all cases i would "protect"the overflow with filterfoam, to avoid fry getting in the filter. Just beware of two things: 1) all the tanks will have the same water, 2) infections can spread to all tanks. If you want to breed I would go with airdriven filters (like Hamburger matten filters) in each tank, far more control. though you'll have to do more waterchanges, so make sure you figure out a way to do those fast and easy.


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## Wizard (19 Aug 2015)

Ideal setup is 4 tanks 4 sumps , each tank is separate to do as u wish ....but you would need 4 pumps , 4 heaters ect .....all depends on cost , and what it is you want to do ?
As to your water level .....u could always use a similar system to ur toilet ...(I forget what it's called) u set the water lvl and it shuts the in flow to that tank , would need some creative plumbing but its doable


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## Rabbit229 (20 Aug 2015)

Edvet said:


> One sump for many tanks can work. I have been at many breeders who do this. Basicallly you pump from the filter in the tank, and gravity takes the surplus back to the filter. You can use a hole in one side to feed the overflow or use a pipe standing on a hole in the bottom. The last method will give you a way to adjustt waterheigt. In all cases i would "protect"the overflow with filterfoam, to avoid fry getting in the filter. Just beware of two things: 1) all the tanks will have the same water, 2) infections can spread to all tanks. If you want to breed I would go with airdriven filters (like Hamburger matten filters) in each tank, far more control. though you'll have to do more waterchanges, so make sure you figure out a way to do those fast and easy.


I like the idea with the air driven sponge filters. With a hole drilled in the front of the tank at the 50% water change mark! With a tap fitted leading in to a gutter system then a water butt,

My problem is getting the water out of the basement


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## James O (20 Aug 2015)

Separate filters/sumps for seperate tanks.

1.  If something goes wrong you can't quarantine a single tank 
2.  You're not future proofed if you can't run the tanks with different parameters
3.  If you pump water into tank 1 then 2-3-4, 4 is never going to see clean water

Etc etc


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## Edvet (20 Aug 2015)

James O said:


> If you pump water into tank 1 then 2-3-4, 4 is never going to see clean water


you pump "fresh water"in each tank seperately


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## James O (20 Aug 2015)

Edvet said:


> you pump "fresh water"in each tank seperately



 Ah!

I'd still go separate everything.  

Hamburg matter filter with heater behind the foam = tidy, efficient, clean lines and cheap


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## Edvet (20 Aug 2015)

Rabbit229 said:


> hole drilled in the front of the tank


or in the back? out of view


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## ian_m (21 Aug 2015)

You need to convert it to a water processing room for your 800 litre tank above to reprocess the 400litre per week from your water change. I once read a blog of a guy who had a 3200l tank and did something similar to lower his water bill.

Currently (using my Southern water prices of £3.20 per m3) it costs you £1.28 per week for 400l.

So you remove 400l of water from your tank, preferably through an easy to clean filter floss, into a storage tank. Allow to cool as RO units are more efficient with colder water.

Then using an RO booster pump (RO units are much much more efficient at higher pressure) through a HMA prefilter (and why not) and through an RO unit followed by a secondary RO membrane.

So if you have 400l waste and an RO unit operating at 4:1 you will get 80 litres of RO water. Pass the 320litres water through another membrane and you will get another 64l RO water.

So you will need to dump 256l (£0.80 worth) water and get 144l RO water to mix up to 400 litre with tap water (and add dechlorinator).

You gain the advantage of saving water cost (OK 40p) and using RO water to have much more control over water parameters.

And have fun building and running such a system.... (without flooding....).


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## Edvet (21 Aug 2015)

Why RO it, build a large reedfilter and proces it through that.


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## Rabbit229 (22 Aug 2015)

I have an hma fitter from my old discus set up. I'll be running my tap water through this. form what I remember r.o systems are quite pricey, I'm not on a water meter so that's not really an issue for me,
I've managed to buy 6, 150ltr vats for breeding the pearscale goldfish ( the zebra plec will be a slow proses will take years to build up  so I'm staring small with these )
I'm thinking of connecting the 6 vats together ( 900 ltr ) each with an over flow leading to a sump and a return to each tank regulated with taps, sump in mind is a big blue barrel. With an over flow to another large container that I can run water changers from and grow plants in. What medium is cheapest to use? I know it can get expencive. I'll need a few rubble sacks. I was thinking crushed house bricks? Will this change the p.h, I need some thing really cheep for this. Also looking for a water plant to grow in my over flow that grow really fast. Any suggestions ?
Was thinking Canadian pond week?


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## Edvet (22 Aug 2015)

pieces of lava from the gardencenter, cheap, large surface. For a investment but good filtering google : "floating media" These are very functional filters (good in a barrel). the original media are pricey, but there are chinese knockoff's.


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## Rabbit229 (23 Aug 2015)

It's quite pricey tho I'm going to need to fill a barrel so I'll need about 8 sacks
They must be a cheaper alternative


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## James O (23 Aug 2015)

How about a fluid bed?

From about 10 min - 

You can get k1 for about 100l for £100 on eBay or there are DIY alternatives...


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## Rabbit229 (23 Aug 2015)

James O said:


> How about a fluid bed?
> 
> From about 10 min -
> 
> You can get k1 for about 100l for £100 on eBay or there are DIY alternatives...



What's a fluid bed


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## Rabbit229 (23 Aug 2015)

The video did not load until after I made the last post, thanks for shearing


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## Rabbit229 (29 Sep 2015)

Managed to get the room plasterboarded and plastered, also fitted a vent and have a large dehumidifier.

Still unsure what system I'd want to use. May be them hamburger filters. Can any one recommend any good ones?


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## James O (29 Sep 2015)

HamburgMatten filters are good - simple to set up, run, maintain and pretty cheap


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## Rabbit229 (29 Sep 2015)

Yes I was looking at these but I thought to expensive £30 each

I found these


Was thinking of putting 2 in each container? How efficient are they and can you put new sponges on after they are worn out.


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## Rabbit229 (29 Sep 2015)

Or these' I thought they was called hamburger filters lol, they do resemble them a little' just a little bit

Will they hold solid to the bottom of the tank or are they prone to float to the top


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## James O (29 Sep 2015)

Better to DIY it.  You can either use air pump (to create air lift lie the ones you found on eBay) or ideally a small pump that draws water grouch the foam and the expels it back into the tank


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## PARAGUAY (29 Sep 2015)

The sponge filters you have shown are very good.They make look a little out of place with all this modern external filtration on offer however those sponges hold a huge amount of benefical bacteria and a couple are probably required in a large tank ,as long as water change is regular and a substrate clean regime they are fine. I got three of the former the double sponge on line for a fiver post free.Downside took a while to arrive nearly gave up on them arriving at one point


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## Edvet (30 Sep 2015)

Look up "Hamburger matten filters" Rabbit
https://www.google.nl/search?q=hamb...X&ved=0CB8QsARqFQoTCIXeyNaZnsgCFYVKFAoda1EKtQ


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## Rabbit229 (30 Sep 2015)

I found these £1.31p each, how do they make them for that? I had to buy 12 at that price


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## James O (30 Sep 2015)

Re tanks:

How many?
How big?
How stocked?


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## Rabbit229 (30 Sep 2015)

They are 150 ltr black storage tubs for raising fry, 6 in total
Was thinking to use 2 of them double sponges in each tank
Members on this thread highly recomend them, keeping each tank isolated from the others in case of disease, running them all through a large sump could wipe every thing out if some thing went wrong


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## Rabbit229 (30 Sep 2015)

Edvet said:


> Look up "Hamburger matten filters" Rabbit
> https://www.google.nl/search?q=hamb...X&ved=0CB8QsARqFQoTCIXeyNaZnsgCFYVKFAoda1EKtQ


The ones I was looking at was £30 each. After looking at them images they look simple to make


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## Edvet (1 Oct 2015)

They are, the only costs are good grade foam and a decent large volume airpump


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## dw1305 (1 Oct 2015)

Hi all,
Have a look at "Swiss Tropicals" for HMF details. It is an American Company run by a Swiss Scientist: Swiss Tropicals links <"Biofiltration">,  <"Mattenfilter"> , and in use <"Brian's Basement">.

It is difficult to get the <"Poret"> foam in the UK, but if you want a reasonable amount it would be worth getting it from Germany, particularly with the euro low in value against £: <"http://fish.aquaristic.net/Filterfoam/">.

I've used  a lot of  the Yamitsu brand <"12" x 4" x 4" PPI20 sponge blocks"> they sell for Koi ponds etc.  I use them with a "Maxijet" powerhead, but you can use an <"air pump and uplift tube">.

cheers Darrel


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## Edvet (1 Oct 2015)

I like to use a foamblock and a small powerhead in smaller tanks too.


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## Rabbit229 (1 Oct 2015)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> Have a look at "Swiss Tropicals" for HMF details. It is an American Company run by a Swiss Scientist: Swiss Tropicals links <"Biofiltration">,  <"Mattenfilter"> , and in use <"Brian's Basement">.
> 
> It is difficult to get the <"Poret"> foam in the UK, but if you want a reasonable amount it would be worth getting it from Germany, particularly with the euro low in value against £: <"http://fish.aquaristic.net/Filterfoam/">.
> ...


What a set up Brian has. Wish I had that sort of cash flow


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## Lindy (3 Oct 2015)

I just use huge sponge filters bought on ebay. Couple of pounds each from hongkong. Easy to clean as you just lift it out and give it a squeeze.


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## Lindy (3 Oct 2015)

I found buying the foam for hmf was expensive and could only get the foam size I needed in blue or beige


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## Rabbit229 (5 Oct 2015)

ldcgroomer said:


> I just use huge sponge filters bought on ebay. Couple of pounds each from hongkong. Easy to clean as you just lift it out and give it a squeeze.


The images of the double sponge filters ive bought of eBay. Will the biological load be efficient for raising the fry if I'm doing a 10 water change each day


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## Lindy (5 Oct 2015)

I'm no expert.  I only have small fish and small quantities of fry. I just do weekly wcs and my ph is so low in most tanks I'm not sure there are any bacteria actually surviving on the filtet sponge lol...

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


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## Edvet (5 Oct 2015)

ldcgroomer said:


> ph is so low in most tanks I'm not sure there are any bacteria actually surviving on the filtet


Quite sure there are plenty. they can withstand the harshest of condition, even live in Geisers, so i guess your tank will do fine


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## Lindy (5 Oct 2015)

Well the fish seem happy Edvet so that is the best sign that everything is working.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


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## Rabbit229 (7 Oct 2015)

Almost there now


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## James O (7 Oct 2015)

I'm a little confused. What's the tank with 12 air lift filters for???


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## Nelson (7 Oct 2015)

James O said:


> I'm a little confused. What's the tank with 12 air lift filters for???


Cycling maybe ?.


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## Edvet (7 Oct 2015)

You running them in for use in the fish tanks or is it going to be a central filter?


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## Rabbit229 (8 Oct 2015)

Yes I'm cycling the sponges. The big black pond filter was taken down 18 months ago. It still had its medium in and was full of water. I'm guessing it will still be fine to use. So I plumbed it up to my spawning tank and fitted the sponges to get them ready for the black vats.

I'm going get the water tested to see if it's ok to add fish.
What do you guys think? Will it be ok?


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## James O (8 Oct 2015)

Bacteria in the pond filter will be dead as they had no food source for 18 months.
Bacteria colony will only grow as big as its food source so trying to that much media will result in negligible bacteria per filter unless you poop in the tank 

You'd be much better off cycling the filters in the tanks they will live in


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## Edvet (8 Oct 2015)

Kinda agree with James. Just put the filters in the tanks they will be in. Seed every tank with some live bacteria from 1) any existing pond, 2) any existing aquarium.  Feed the tanks without fish some fishfood every day.


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## Rabbit229 (8 Oct 2015)

I have an 800ltr tropical tank. When I do a 400lter water change. Am I better of putting it in the vats below? If I do this can I add fish right away


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## Edvet (8 Oct 2015)

Aye you can, just with "fresh"filters do some extra wc.


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## Rabbit229 (8 Oct 2015)

Edvet said:


> Aye you can, just with "fresh"filters do some extra wc.


Great so I'm ready to go right away.


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## James O (8 Oct 2015)

You can. But you won't have cycled tanks. The dirty water will help jump start bacteria in the media but you won't be doing a fishless cycle.  You'll be doing a fish in cycle and that's not really ideal.

If your looking at breeding that might not be a great start  Just be patient.  Cycle the tanks properly, without putting fish in harms way.


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## Rabbit229 (12 Oct 2015)

I'm going to run the fluid bed that james sugested on the first page of the thread. Am not sure these sponge filters will Handel raising the fry on there own so I can run the air sponges along side of the k1 fluid bed.

I have 900ltr of water to run through the filter and I'll be using 100ltr barrel with 60ltr of k1

What size pump will I need 1000ltr per hour or 10,000ltr per hour?


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## Edvet (12 Oct 2015)

I'd go for the large one. The fluidized bed needs to be moving, if you install a valve you can throtle it.


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## Rabbit229 (12 Oct 2015)

10,000ltr per hour. Will this not be running to fast through the filter?

Also my pipe work is only 15mm with 6 out lets with taps conected. It would be like a huge spray bar. Would this be ok?


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## Edvet (12 Oct 2015)

1) there are pumps with settings so you can step up or step down the flow.
2) i dont understand the set up you picture shows, can you explain how the water flows?


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## Rabbit229 (12 Oct 2015)

Set up is not finished but the water from the pump( filter) will flow out of the 15mm White pipe' fill the vats and water will over flow out of the black taps to the front of the vats back to the filter. The flow from the White pipe can be adjusted accordingly 

The red tube is connected to the tap and will drip into the vats making constant water change, I can set this water change to as much or little as possible. With minimum effort
I will have an over flow connected to the barrel filter with a sump pump' pumping water out automaticly


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## Rabbit229 (12 Oct 2015)

I forgot to mention that the pump will be sat 4 ft under the vats on the ground. Not sure if this makes any differance to what size pump I need


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## ian_m (12 Oct 2015)

Of course you have your UV steriliser somewhere to prevent one infected fish infecting the others ?

Remember your 10,000l/hr quite large so a large UV unit will be required. I have seen these stainless type being used in a fish farm
http://www.deltaqua.eu/epages/pdejs...pdejsc23kj6d/Products/UV14W/SubProducts/UV40W


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## Rabbit229 (12 Oct 2015)

What I don't understand is why will it have to be turnover 10x per hour. Is this not to fast ?

And a U V is this nessesury


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## ian_m (12 Oct 2015)

UV is necessary as all your tanks share the same water. If a fish in one tanks gets a disease, it will quickly pass to all tanks via the water system. This is why most commercial shops and fish breeders have UV sterilisers in their water system to kill water born diseases before they spread.

Go to your "decent" LFS and ask to see their water circulation systems, I certainly have in two of my local shops, both had UV sterilisers in their system.


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## Rabbit229 (12 Oct 2015)

Well I have this UV maybe I can convert it some how to the new system


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## ian_m (12 Oct 2015)

Rabbit229 said:


> Well I have this UV maybe I can convert it some how to the new system


That will do, though 11W UV tube is on the very low flow side. You need to ensure your tube size (and wattage) can cope with your flow rate. If water flows too fast the UV doesn't have a chance to work (there is a minimum dwell time the water has to be exposed) and then the UV is no good. Make sure only filtered water goes through the UV unit as diseases etc can hide behind dirt whilst passing through the UV unit.


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## Rabbit229 (12 Oct 2015)

Bloody bulb is broke 

So I'm thinking this pump, 
https://www.google.co.uk/search?cli...14.MuM0TOovUWg#spd=7189371483751702580&spud=0
it's sounding complicated now with the UV flow rate. Do you know what rate it should be


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## Edvet (12 Oct 2015)

You could do the UV on a bypass i guess


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## Rabbit229 (16 Oct 2015)

It's getting there slowly. Cash money's hold me back on these project.

I have been talking to a few ornamental   Goldfish breeders and they don't use biological filters!

They run the tap water through there hose pipes and at a valve with a drip system' creating an 100% water change per day. Is this fine to do? Will the chlorine not damage the fish or will it dissolve as it's just dripping in to the tank


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## alto (16 Oct 2015)

Rabbit229 said:


> a few ornamental Goldfish breeders and they don't use biological filters!


Are you planning on breeding goldfish?

Both chlorine & ammonia poisoning cause permanent damage to sensitive gill tissues ...
nitrites & even nitrates will also (permanently) alter fish at a biochemical level just the threshold is higher.
For better development of the cell types & compounds which give fish their unique appearance (iridescence, color, intensity etc, etc) use the best technical lighting available - pond raised fish that receive daily sun are the gold standard.


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## Rabbit229 (17 Oct 2015)

alto said:


> Are you planning on breeding goldfish?
> 
> Both chlorine & ammonia poisoning cause permanent damage to sensitive gill tissues ...
> nitrites & even nitrates will also (permanently) alter fish at a biochemical level just the threshold is higher.
> For better development of the cell types & compounds which give fish their unique appearance (iridescence, color, intensity etc, etc) use the best technical lighting available - pond raised fish that receive daily sun are the gold standard.


I totally agree with you on the filteration. I'd think 15% water change per day is more than enough. Any more could flush out the essentials in the filter.

And yes I'm going to be breeding Pearlscale goldfish. Natural sunlight is the key but I'm in a basement  i will be building an out door grow out pond in the garden this winter.

What lights are recommended to help them colour well.

This is some of my stock fish


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## Smells Fishy (27 Oct 2015)

Good to see I'm not the only one who looks after goldfish. At the mo I've got a Blackmoor and a black Ranchu, there lovely fish. Never owned a Pearlscale though.


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## Edvet (27 Oct 2015)

Sorry guys/galls, i can't look at those fish and not think  "this isn't healthy". could be occupational deformity, but i will never find this man-made deformity atractive. Could be these function perfectly normal, but i've seen to often if "man" prefers form over function, things go haywire eventually.


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## Clint Hewitt (28 Oct 2015)

I'm not convinced the wooden stand you have those containers on is sturdy enough to support all that weight.


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## James O (28 Oct 2015)

Clint Hewitt said:


> I'm not convinced the wooden stand you have those containers on is sturdy enough to support all that weight.



Having had a quick look back to page 1 I think clint might be right.  Some diagonal braces, front to back and side to side will stop tipping.  Tie the bottom of the legs together while your at it to stop splaying.  You might need a few more legs while your at it.  A few thousand litres of water on the floor and a load of dead goldfish won't be a pretty site.


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## Rabbit229 (16 Nov 2015)

Installed overflow system. The depth of water can be ran at 6inch for raising fry or 12 inch for growing them on.

Still undecided on the pump I need to use on the K1 filter. Please all suggestions welcome, some thing with power but low what. My set up 1000ltr so with 10,000 ltr pump per hour will turn it over 10 times an hour! Is this not to much, I've been reading  3 times per hour for a F1 filter? Is this correct


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## aaron.c (17 Nov 2015)

Those stands do not look any way strong enough for those tanks. Get them braced asap. Also, I don't think the timber used is thick enough. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rabbit229 (18 Nov 2015)

aaron.c said:


> Those stands do not look any way strong enough for those tanks. Get them braced asap. Also, I don't think the timber used is thick enough.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Lol time will tell. They look fine at the moment, ive actually put more supports under were I think is needed. Plus it's braces in from wall to wall with 18mm ply on top of the 2x2 frame work. Keeping in mind the 900ltr is spread over 4 meter by 1 meter area


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## aaron.c (18 Nov 2015)

Rabbit229 said:


> Lol time will tell. They look fine at the moment, ive actually put more supports under were I think is needed. Plus it's braces in from wall to wall with 18mm ply on top of the 2x2 frame work. Keeping in mind the 900ltr is spread over 4 meter by 1 meter area



I hope you are right.  I am concerned that there seems to be some lean on the timber at the front.

I recently built a stand for a clay pizza oven. 

The oven weighs 200kg and the slabs weigh another 200.  So I used 4 x 4 fence posts (as they are pressure treated to avoid rot).  It is all held together with 200mm coach bolts.

Perhaps a bit OTT, could have got away with 3 x 3 fence posts.


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## ian_m (18 Nov 2015)

aaron.c said:


> So I used 4 x 4 fence posts (as they are pressure treated to avoid rot).


Not suitable for use around food...so be careful.


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## Rabbit229 (18 Nov 2015)

That would see me out! Well built 

They was a wonky leg at the front. As long as no one kicks them they will be fine  
I'm not worried about it, they are full of water and all is well for now.

I'm just concerned about the right pump for the system


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## aaron.c (18 Nov 2015)

ian_m said:


> Not suitable for use around food...so be careful.



It has a tiled top on it now - food doens't go near the wood. Thanks for the heads up though


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## Rabbit229 (19 Nov 2015)

I thought k1 was meant to sit under the surface of the water?



I've bought 100ltr and its floating


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## xim (19 Nov 2015)

I used to try this media. You have to wait. The water doesn't stick to the surface well when new.

To confirm the issue: http://www.raingarden.us/kaldnes_bio.pdf



> First, when the media is new, it tends to be a little more buoyant than you would like it to be. A layer of floating media several feet thick, may extend above the surface of the water several inches. When mature, the media will not rise above the surface.


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## Tim Harrison (19 Nov 2015)

That's pretty darn good...I wish!


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## dw1305 (20 Nov 2015)

Hi all, 





Rabbit229 said:


> I thought k1 was meant to sit under the surface of the water?


It is "floating cell media", so it will always float. Like Xim says give it a good stir and it will eventually sink down to the waters surface. Floating is a great advantage if the power goes off, because the media has more access to atmospheric oxygen than a sand filter etc would.

cheers Darrel


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## Martin in Holland (20 Nov 2015)

K1 always remind me of wheels from cheap toy cars I see here all the time, maybe those cars didn't sell anymore and they found a new purpose for the wheels?


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## dw1305 (20 Nov 2015)

Hi all, 





Martin in China said:


> K1 always remind me of wheels from cheap toy cars I see here all the time, maybe those cars didn't sell anymore and they found a new purpose for the wheels?


Dual purpose, well if denim started as tent material, and we use cat litter and Bonsai soil as a tank substrate, I don't  see why not. 

The "moving bed biofilm reactor", using Kaldnes type media, was developed in Norway in the 1980's, so it  is actually quite old technology. 

The best review of microbial bio-filters is probably in <"Aquaculture *34*(3) (2006) "Design and Selection of Biological Filters for Freshwater and Marine Applications">. The Kaldnes paper is Rusten, _et al_. <"Design and operations of the Kaldnes moving bed biofilm reactors">.

I've got access to these,  so if people want any specific the papers I can get them.

cheers Darrel


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## Rabbit229 (20 Nov 2015)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/10000l-SuperECO-submersible-Filter-XTP-10000/dp/B00LPX4GGK

What are your thoughts on this pump. Will it do for my system


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