# Are these products shrimp safe? Any other recommendations?



## Stiphodon (27 Jan 2019)

Hi,

Many of my plants are struggling, the java moss is really the only one doing well. I was looking at getting TNC Carbon and TNC Complete, and was wondering are these definitely cherry shrimp safe? It seems the latter is safe with acclimatised doses, but there isn't much info about the first. Other products I've seen are Flourish Excel and some AquaCare fertiliser tablets/Colombo FloraGrow Carbo/Microbe-Lift CO2 - are these any good and shrimp safe? Any other recommendations? Also, is it a good idea to use both fertiliser and CO2?

I had some issues with my shrimp and moulting at first, but I have ~40 now I think, so the population has increased tenfold. They share the tank with Rasboras and Stiphodons, and hopefully some Threadfin Rainbowfish in the next few weeks.
Tank params:
KH - 7-8 drops, ~135ppm
GH - 9-10 drops, ~170ppm
pH - 7-7.5
TDS - ~200ppm
Temp - 22/23C
Light - 70LED 8W ~8hrs per day
Size - Aqua Expert 70L
Pump - SuperFish Aqua-Flow 6W, 400L/h
Contents (not sure if relevant) - bogwood, mineral stones, small rock, Pogostemon helferi, Eleocharis acicularis, Vallisneria, Crytocoryne walkeri and Cabomba aquatica(?), Java Moss


Thanks


----------



## tam (27 Jan 2019)

I would start with just the fertiliser (TNC Complete). You've got some easy plants there so if they aren't doing well you're probably missing a nutrient. You may find just the fertiliser alone will fix it. I've dosed that brand with shrimp without issues.

Showing some photos of your plants would probably help people give you better ideas.


----------



## Zeus. (27 Jan 2019)

Tam beat me too it  - but hears my reply as was ready to post-

Not used TNC Carbon or TNC Complete, but have used TNC dry salts in past and Liqiud Cardon (LCO2) is basicaly LCO2 some claim to be better than others but no real hard proof that I'm aware off.

My RCS have had LCO2 for some time at quite a high dose no issues. I use EI Ferts which is basically  TNC Complete and no issues there either


----------



## Stiphodon (27 Jan 2019)

Okay thanks guys, will go ahead and get TNC Complete then  Such quick replies! 
Here is the tank:






Basically, a lot of the plants just don't look healthy IMO, with yellowing/melting on the grasses in some areas, and pale brittle leaves on the Pogostemon and Cabomba. The Crytocoryne also could look better. The grasses have sent out some runners, and the Pogostemon has expanded, but they have not seemed to grow at all for the past few weeks - in fact, the Eleocharis has reduced in size. The first Cabomba plant actually died off completely before the others started having issues, I just assumed at the time it was due to the fact I hadn't planted it properly or something, as I'm relatively new to the hobby (dad had a tank when I was younger)! So this is a new Cabomba that I got a few days ago (pic4), and it has flowers, but some small leaves are already falling off a little bit


----------



## dw1305 (27 Jan 2019)

Hi all,





Stiphodon said:


> So this is a new Cabomba that I got a few days ago, and it has flowers, but some small leaves are already falling off a little bit


That is a deficiency of a non-mobile nutrient, and most likely to be iron (Fe).

Have a look at <"_Rotala rotundifolia_ growth issues"> and <"Duckweed Index says...">. Because the element causing the chlorosis isn't mobile when you add it the plant health won't instantly improve, it will only show a difference when new leaves grow.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Stiphodon (27 Jan 2019)

Interesting reads, thank you Darrel! (btw, the pic in your reply is of the Pogostemon not the Cabomba; I just edited the post with clarification to prevent any confusion, but that plant also has the yellower leaves and brittleness) 

So in this case should I just get the specific micro nutrients, or will the TNC Complete I was planning to buy do the trick as well?

As I said in my original post, there was a lot of shrimp death at the start, possibly due to low/high Ca or bad stock, but they seemed to have largely adapted now (not sure if the mineral stones are helping). Would just adding the specific salts affect the shrimp any differently? I want to use the products safest for them, as they would be perfectly happy with just the moss and Eleocharis, which are doing well. At the end of the day, the rest of the plants are to make the tank look pretty, which isn't a high priority for me at the moment!

Also, my filter that came with the tank has a sponge which contains activated carbon. I haven't replaced it yet, could that be another issue?


Sorry if these are stupid questions, I'm only just discovering all the possible things I could dose my tank with and it is all a bit overwhelming! I don't want my shrimp population to take a hit as it was tough last time :/


----------



## Andrew Butler (27 Jan 2019)

They say that Vallisneria isn't best friends with liquid carbon just for future reference.



Stiphodon said:


> Also, my filter that came with the tank has a sponge which contains activated carbon. I haven't replaced it yet, could that be another issue?


How long has it been in there? I assume it contains activated carbon which is completely different to liquid carbon and is there to polish your water. I change my activate carbon around once every 4 weeks, most people don't use it at all so if in doubt take it out.



Stiphodon said:


> Sorry if these are stupid questions


this is a place to ask those stupid questions and hopefully get sensible answers. 
Unsure what you have read on here so far but 50% weekly water changes is always a good one to aim for as a starter. 



Stiphodon said:


> there was a lot of shrimp death at the start


did you cycle the tank before adding them? - lookup something called new tank syndrome. 



Stiphodon said:


> So in this case should I just get the specific micro nutrients, or will the TNC Complete I was planning to buy do the trick as well?


@dw1305 is the man best placed to answer your question here I think.


----------



## Stiphodon (27 Jan 2019)

Andrew Butler said:


> How long has it been in there? I assume it contains activated carbon which is completely different to liquid carbon and is there to polish your water. I change my activate carbon around once every 4 weeks, most people don't use it at all so if in doubt take it out.



Since I got the tank which is over 5 months now, so a long time! I should probably change it then, it's just last I asked at my LFS they said it wasn't important to change it if I'm not fussed about tanins etc in the water. 



> did you cycle the tank before adding them? - lookup something called new tank syndrome.



Yep fully cycled and then some! Tank was empty for 1.5-2 months with just plants/bogwood and microbe supplements, monitored and tested daily. Anyway the shrimp are all good now. I'm just waiting for the juveniles to reach sexual maturity and I'll have a population explosion, which should be in the next couple of months!


----------



## Andrew Butler (27 Jan 2019)

Just a little tip; you will find when asking for advice it's always best to give as much info as you can, I can see you have given quite a good selection but tank volume and filtration are always a good addition to let people help you best they can.



Stiphodon said:


> Since I got the tank which is over 5 months now, so a long time! I should probably change it then, it's just last I asked at my LFS they said it wasn't important to change it if I'm not fussed about tanins etc in the water.


Let other people give you their opinions as I'm not saying what I do is right or wrong; I also don't know what filter or aquarium you have and have also never used the type of carbon filled sponge you describe but it's essentially the same thing; activated carbon. I don't believe there is a right answer but once the carbon has done it's work it can start to leach out some of the things it has taken out of the water and I'd say if you have bogwood in there it would have clogged up quite quickly due to the tannins it would almost definitely have leeched. (You may have noticed the water turning a little brownish?)



Stiphodon said:


> Yep fully cycled and then some!


There are many different ways people suggest how to cycle a tank and I'm not going to agree or disagree with any of them but I didn't notice any testing for Ammonia; this is the one you are most interested in when first adding livestock.
Most people will rubbish the test kits available in the hobby due to them not being accurate enough and a lot of the more experienced aquascapers report not testing anything at all.
The one you would be interested in from what you listed is PH if and when you came to run CO2 in gas for to run a PH profile but that's a story for another day.
KH, GH and TDS are all to do with how hard your water is.

This is just my thoughts on things and doesn't mean I'm right, neither does it mean what the next person says is right either!


----------



## Stiphodon (27 Jan 2019)

Andrew Butler said:


> Just a little tip; you will find when asking for advice it's always best to give as much info as you can, I can see you have given quite a good selection but tank volume and filtration are always a good addition to let people help you best they can.



Can't believe I forgot to add those! Just did, it's Aqua Expert 70L with the standard pack in pump (SuperFish Aqua-Flow 6W, 400L/h).




> Let other people give you their opinions as I'm not saying what I do is right or wrong; I also don't know what filter or aquarium you have and have also never used the type of carbon filled sponge you describe but it's essentially the same thing; activated carbon. I don't believe there is a right answer but once the carbon has done it's work it can start to leach out some of the things it has taken out of the water and I'd say if you have bogwood in there it would have clogged up quite quickly due to the tannins it would almost definitely have leeched. (You may have noticed the water turning a little brownish?)



:O I never thought about leaching! I'll definitely pop in tomorrow and get a new one then. Should I just remove the old sponge completely do you think, or leave it in there for a few days so I'm not removing a bunch of the good microbes?



> There are many different ways people suggest how to cycle a tank and I'm not going to agree or disagree with any of them but I didn't notice any testing for Ammonia; this is the one you are most interested in when first adding livestock.
> Most people will rubbish the test kits available in the hobby due to them not being accurate enough and a lot of the more experienced aquascapers report not testing anything at all.
> The one you would be interested in from what you listed is PH if and when you came to run CO2 in gas for to run a PH profile but that's a story for another day.
> KH, GH and TDS are all to do with how hard your water is.
> ...



Yeah I have the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate test kits and used them every day at the start! I saw the changes which match a tank cycling, but I kept testing just to be sure. I used up my few pH test strips I got free, so I took a water sample to the LFS and they said I look all clear to start getting stock. Still do those tests occasionally now, but I did/do them daily when I add any new stock  Guess I'm a typical beginner then lol!

EDIT: should mention I'll be ordering a pH test meter with the fertiliser so I don't have to rely on strips any more!


----------



## dw1305 (27 Jan 2019)

Hi all,





Stiphodon said:


> the pic in your reply is of the Pogostemon not the Cabomba; I just edited the post with clarification to prevent any confusion, but that plant also has the yellower leaves and brittleness


Sorry it was just the text above the picture with the chlorotic _Pogostemon helferi_, I think most of our members will be familiar with both plants, so I didn't clarify. I should have also said that _Cabomba_ only flowers when it has reached the surface, and the flowers are terminal (at the end of the shoot) and form after floating leaves have formed, so flowering shoots will always die back, before they can grow again from buds lower down. I've only ever grown and flowered _C. caroliniana, _but I think they are all pretty similar in growth.





Stiphodon said:


> Should I just remove the old sponge completely do you think, or leave it in there for a few days so I'm not removing a bunch of the good microbes?


No, you never have to change the sponges, once the activated charcoal sponge is exhausted it is just a sponge. You can just give them a swirl in the tank water you've taken out when you do a water change.





Stiphodon said:


> Yeah I have the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate test kits and used them every day at the start! I saw the changes which match a tank cycling, but I kept testing just to be sure. I used up my few pH test strips I got free, so I took a water sample to the LFS and they said I look all clear to start getting stock. Still do those tests occasionally now, but I did/do them daily when I add any new stock


Water testing is a contentious issue, I'm not an advocate of it, mainly because there are a number of issues with getting accurate results. Have a look at <"Starting up a 34l...">, it talks a bit about water testing, but more about mechanisms to ensure high quality water. If you want to carry on with water testing @alto is probably the best man to advice you on which tests to use.





Stiphodon said:


> there was a lot of shrimp death at the start, possibly due to low/high Ca or bad stock


It might be the soft water or the level of maturity of the tank, cherry shrimps do much better in hard water and established set-ups.





Andrew Butler said:


> @dw1305 is the man best placed to answer your question here I think


I would add an iron chelate, probably starting with FeEDTA. Have a look at <"Favourite trace fert..">.

I'd add my experience with _Pogostemon helferi_ is fairly limited, I killed it off pretty quickly the only time I've tried it, possibly because it didn't like any/all of low light, soft water and low nutrients.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Andrew Butler (28 Jan 2019)

I might be over explaining some of the things here but no idea of your knowledge.



Stiphodon said:


> Can't believe I forgot to add those! Just did, it's Aqua Expert 70L with the standard pack in pump (SuperFish Aqua-Flow 6W, 400L/h).


you put quite a bit of info and you're new to the forum so just learning. 

Another 'rule' you will hear quite a lot on here is that your filter should have 10x the amount of flow (or more) as the volume of water in your aquarium.
You have a 70L aquarium and a filter that pumps 400L per hour (LPH).
If you were to follow this rule then your filter would be under powered and you would look for something that pumps 700 LPH+
I'm not saying rush out and buy another filter; just explaining one of the 'rules' you will see quite a bit on this forum.



Stiphodon said:


> :O I never thought about leaching! I'll definitely pop in tomorrow and get a new one then. Should I just remove the old sponge completely do you think, or leave it in there for a few days so I'm not removing a bunch of the good microbes?


I've just looked up your filter which I assume to be the 'Aqua Flow 200'  from the 6w descriptor to have a look at it's design.
If I'm correct there's one sponge which has a little hollow in the middle with a foam bung where the carbon goes? - If so I would just ditch the carbon and give the remaining filter foam a good rinse in some tank water (not while it's in the tank ) you can get from the tank next time you do a water change.
Another thing which people do have divided views on is rinsing filter media, in your case the filter foam; some say rinsing in tap water will kill all of the beneficial bacteria others say it will do no harm.
If you rinse it with tank water then you can't go wrong.



dw1305 said:


> once the activated charcoal sponge is exhausted it is just a sponge. You can just give them a swirl in the tank water you've taken out when you do a water change.



Oh just read this after writing the above so +1 although I would remove the carbon.

I did have a version of this filter when I had a little superfish Home aquarium a few years ago now as my first planted tank and I did find the filter foam got a bit worn after a while from washing and if you are to remove the carbon it has a void in the middle of it too you don't want to replace all of the foam in one go as this is your filter media containing the friendly bacteria.

I've some suggestions which hopefully other people will give their thoughts on.

IF it was my aquarium..............
Following the 'rules' you are a bit down on flow so I would buy another Aqua Flow 200 Filter (less than £16 on Amazon at the moment) which would mean you have 800LPH and then run them both at the same time. The foam in the new filter would 'seed' itself from the bacteria in the tank, maybe around a month.
To make things easy to explain your existing filter is now called 'filter 1' and the new filter 'filter 2'
Keep rinsing both filter foams in tank water weekly at water change time but just keep a track on which is which - should be easy as one is full of carbon and the other isn't. 
If you are running the 2x filters maybe think about adding the spraybar sections to the filter and aiming them both towards the front of the tank so they create a circular motion; if this doesn't make sense ask and I'll explain.
Unsure if they do a non carbon replacement version which is sponge only to put in your filters but if not take some measurements and see if you can find some foam big enough to put in one piece, if not stack several pieces on top of one another.
After a month or so change the foam in filter 1 over to a solid piece of foam, that piece of foam will then start seeding while the foam in filter foam 2 does it's magic seeding your newer piece of foam in filter 1 and keeping the friendly bacteria present.
After that month I would also remove the carbon from filter 2.
Then after another month if you wanted you could replace the foam in filter 2 so that's also a solid piece and let that seed from the friendly bacteria now in filter 1.

Now - add filter 2, remove carbon from filter 1, setup spraybars on both filters.
Week 4 - change foam in filter 1 to solid and remove carbon from filter 2
Week 8 - change foam in filter 2 to solid
Week 12 onwards as required - change foam in filter 1 or 2 but never both at the same time and never closer than 4 weeks apart
If that makes any sense then well done  - if not try drawing it out on paper to help, any questions welcome. 

The only other option I see to the worn foam issue I experienced is to take the existing piece out, cut it in half and replace that half with solid foam and rotate as above if/when needed.



Stiphodon said:


> Guess I'm a typical beginner then lol!


Been there, done that.


----------



## tam (28 Jan 2019)

To confuse you and disagree ... I wouldn't worry about flow. The 10x turnover is generally for high tech CO2 added tanks, not low tech. I don't think that's your issue. 

I would keep it really simple. The TNC complete has a bit of everything your plants should need in. So try that to start. You should see the new growth improving within a few weeks. If so you are all sorted.

On the carbon... I agree you don't need to run with carbon all the time - it's most handy if there is something specific you want to remove e.g. left over medication after dosing. As carbon runs out after 4-6 weeks, it's easier (and cheaper) just to run with regular sponges that don't need replacing and you won't notice the difference - if fact it will be better as you aren't throwing out all your good bacteria with it. Of course manufacturers promote the carbon because you then buy a new 'cartridge' every four weeks which is a lot more cash for them! You can just use the carbon one as if it was a regular sponge or use a piece of regular sponge the same size.


----------



## Kalum (28 Jan 2019)

Good info above but just to add, one of the main things that i've found since keeping (cherry) shrimp is that they can adapt to various parameters as long as they are within tolerance but the key is to keep things consistent and stable

remove anything that could cause a swing, find a simple balance you are happy with and can keep consistent (so not over complicated where there is more room for error) and stick with it. when you change things initially a few might die off as they can't adapt but the ones that survive will end up breeding and they will be accustomed to your parameters from then on


----------



## Stiphodon (28 Jan 2019)

dw1305 said:


> Sorry it was just the text above the picture with the chlorotic _Pogostemon helferi_, I think most of our members will be familiar with both plants, so I didn't clarify. I should have also said that _Cabomba_ only flowers when it has reached the surface, and the flowers are terminal (at the end of the shoot) and form after floating leaves have formed, so flowering shoots will always die back, before they can grow again from buds lower down. I've only ever grown and flowered _C. caroliniana, _but I think they are all pretty similar in growth.No, you never have to change the sponges, once the activated charcoal sponge is exhausted it is just a sponge. You can just give them a swirl in the tank water you've taken out when you do a water change.Water testing is a contentious issue, I'm not an advocate of it, mainly because there are a number of issues with getting accurate results. Have a look at <"Starting up a 34l...">, it talks a bit about water testing, but more about mechanisms to ensure high quality water. If you want to carry on with water testing @alto is probably the best man to advice you on which tests to use.It might be the soft water or the level of maturity of the tank, cherry shrimps do much better in hard water and established set-ups.I would add an iron chelate, probably starting with FeEDTA. Have a look at <"Favourite trace fert..">.



Interesting to know about the Cabomba, thanks! 
Yeah I have cleaned/rinsed the sponge in the tank water during changes, just not replaced it yet.
I was under the impression my water was moderately hard with the higher GH/KH/TDS? I think the shrimp at the start were struggling to break their exoskels rather than form them!
Where do you source the FeEDTA?



Andrew Butler said:


> Another 'rule' you will hear quite a lot on here is that your filter should have 10x the amount of flow (or more) as the volume of water in your aquarium.
> You have a 70L aquarium and a filter that pumps 400L per hour (LPH).
> If you were to follow this rule then your filter would be under powered and you would look for something that pumps 700 LPH+
> I'm not saying rush out and buy another filter; just explaining one of the 'rules' you will see quite a bit on this forum.



Ooo interesting! Guess that makes sense! I'll look into that 



> I've just looked up your filter which I assume to be the 'Aqua Flow 200'  from the 6w descriptor to have a look at it's design.
> If I'm correct there's one sponge which has a little hollow in the middle with a foam bung where the carbon goes? - If so I would just ditch the carbon and give the remaining filter foam a good rinse in some tank water (not while it's in the tank ) you can get from the tank next time you do a water change.
> Another thing which people do have divided views on is rinsing filter media, in your case the filter foam; some say rinsing in tap water will kill all of the beneficial bacteria others say it will do no harm.
> If you rinse it with tank water then you can't go wrong.



Yep I've been rinsing it out every few water changes, I'll see if I can remove the carbon then!  



> IF it was my aquarium.............
> Following the 'rules' you are a bit down on flow so I would buy another Aqua Flow 200 Filter (less than £16 on Amazon at the moment) which would mean you have 800LPH and then run them both at the same time. The foam in the new filter would 'seed' itself from the bacteria in the tank, maybe around a month.
> To make things easy to explain your existing filter is now called 'filter 1' and the new filter 'filter 2'
> SNIP
> If that makes any sense then well done  - if not try drawing it out on paper to help, any questions welcome.



Good idea! 
But could it not work just cleaning out the carbon from the old one, but then just leave that old sponge in the tank with the new filter for a while? Saves me having two filters going, as the tank is in my bedroom I can't have too much noise at night haha! Plus the shrimp could graze on it I guess?



tam said:


> To confuse you and disagree ... I wouldn't worry about flow. The 10x turnover is generally for high tech CO2 added tanks, not low tech. I don't think that's your issue.
> 
> I would keep it really simple. The TNC complete has a bit of everything your plants should need in. So try that to start. You should see the new growth improving within a few weeks. If so you are all sorted.



Ok cool, I guess I could get the TNC now and the iron supplement later if it doesn't work 



Kalum said:


> when you change things initially a few might die off as they can't adapt but the ones that survive will end up breeding and they will be accustomed to your parameters from then on



Yep that's exactly what happened! 
When I got the shrimp it was just before the heatwave in summer, and that caused a few problems I think as the temperature (while controlled as much as possible with frozen water in bottles) was fluctuating just a bit too much each day


----------



## dw1305 (28 Jan 2019)

Hi all,





Stiphodon said:


> Where do you source the FeEDTA?


<"Aquarium Plant Food UK"> sell it, or <"TNC">.

The paling of the new growth on your plants is more likely to occur in harder water, because iron is less available than in soft water.

Have a look at <"EI dosing all in one.....">

cheers Darrel


----------



## Stiphodon (8 Feb 2019)

Hi all,
So far so good with TNC and the shrimp. Dosing ~1ml each day instead of 6/7ml per week as some suggested elsewhere. 
However the past two days I've noticed a film on the water surface which is much cloudier than normal. Could this be due to the ferts? I'm due a water change but it has never been this bad before; normally it comes and goes, and vanishes after a few minutes with more surface movement, but not this time!  And no I don't have a protein skimmer, I've been using the paper towel/towel method :/


----------

