# Bacteria in a bottle ?



## ss_cov (4 Sep 2020)

Products like API quick start, seachem stability claim to contain live bacteria to help boost start a new tank. 

Bacteria can live in water/hard surfaces so I don't question having bacteria in a bottle . But what I can't understand is they have a expiry date of several years so how does bacteria in those bottles survive that log without food?

Anyone with a microscope has done any testing ?


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## dw1305 (4 Sep 2020)

Hi all, 





ss_cov said:


> Products like API quick start, seachem stability claim to contain live bacteria to help boost start a new tank.


We have a <"few posts about these">, I'd have to say I'm a skeptic.

As a broad generalization everything you read about <"cycling", "nitrification" and "biological filtration"> is either <"wrong">, <"very wrong"> or <"totally irrelevant">.

cheers Darrel


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## Melll (4 Sep 2020)

dw1305 said:


> As a broad generalization everything you read about <"cycling", "nitrification" and "biological filtration"> is either <"wrong">, <"very wrong"> or <"totally irrelevant">.



Don`t sit on the fence there, say what you mean 😄😄


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## dw1305 (4 Sep 2020)

Hi all,





Melll said:


> Don`t sit on the fence there, say what you mean


I think I may lack diplomacy. 

If I'd have known the trouble the <"cycling posts"> were going to cause I would have never started them. I've been thrown off forums, I've been threatened with legal action and I've been called a  variety of names, not all of them very nice.

cheers Darrel


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## Melll (4 Sep 2020)

dw1305 said:


> I think I may lack diplomacy.



My Dad always told me that I suffered with Foot in Mouth syndrome, as I got older he told me never to apply to work in the Diplomatic Service   I took his advice. 

Threatened with legal action,  

I see having a hobby, any hobby as a way to learn, to hopefully improve and then to pass on any knowledge to others.  Those people who are so rigid in their view point slow the learning curve down, they hold it back in my opinion. 

So time for a cuppa and I`ve run out of Jaffa cakes


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## dw1305 (4 Sep 2020)

Hi all, 





Melll said:


> Threatened with legal action,


Quite common apparently. I asked a microbiologist and he said there was nothing scientifically inaccurate in what I'd posted, we have a colleague who is a psychology lecturer (and used to write in the Guardian) and he apparently has a whole filing cabinet of them. 

I showed him the letter and he said "_just tell them to "p*ss off"._

cheers Darrel


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## Melll (4 Sep 2020)

dw1305 said:


> I showed him the letter and he said "_just tell them to "p*ss off"._



🤣🤣🤣


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## jaypeecee (4 Sep 2020)

Hi @ss_cov


ss_cov said:


> Products like API quick start, seachem stability claim to contain live bacteria to help boost start a new tank.
> 
> Bacteria can live in water/hard surfaces so I don't question having bacteria in a bottle . But what I can't understand is they have a expiry date of several years so how does bacteria in those bottles survive that log without food?
> 
> Anyone with a microscope has done any testing ?



As you are specifically referring to _bacterial starter_ products, these cannot survive in a bottle for several years. For kick-starting a tank, look no further than Tetra _SafeStart_. It was developed by a guy called Dr Timothy Hovanec who knows a thing or two about nitrifying bacteria! He advises using _SafeStart_ within about eight months. I, and many others, have had a lot of success with this product. If you decide to try it, ensure that it's inside its expiry date and give the bottle a very good shake before use. The liquid from the bottle (containing the bacteria) should be cloudy, not clear. I have cycled tanks in one week using this excellent product.

BTW, you would need a scanning electron microscope to see some of these bacteria - got a spare £500,000?

There are other types of (heterotrophic) bacteria used in so-called 'sludge busters' or organic waste digesters. These can survive for much longer periods in an unopened bottle.

JPC


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## ss_cov (5 Sep 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @ss_cov
> 
> 
> As you are specifically referring to _bacterial starter_ products, these cannot survive in a bottle for several years. For kick-starting a tank, look no further than Tetra _SafeStart_. It was developed by a guy called Dr Timothy Hovanec who knows a thing or two about nitrifying bacteria! He advises using _SafeStart_ within about eight months. I, and many others, have had a lot of success with this product. If you decide to try it, ensure that it's inside its expiry date and give the bottle a very good shake before use. The liquid from the bottle (containing the bacteria) should be cloudy, not clear. I have cycled tanks in one week using this excellent product.
> ...



Hi JPC , 

Like some here I'm skeptical about those products.  I'm no expert but a quick Google says you can see the shape of bacteria using a compound microscope of about x1000 magnification. And I guess that should be enough to test the hypothesis . 

Maybe you meant electron to see them in great detail.
Regards


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## alto (5 Sep 2020)

There has been testing done with these products - at least the older type versions (think Hagen Cycle under various (new) names), including some by T Hovanec back when he developed his version and was still writing up scientific papers (and long before his affiliation with Tetra)

Conclusion - Dr H’s product “cycled” aquariums much more quickly, but even Hagen Cycle reduced the “cycle” time by 2-3 weeks (this was put down to ineffective bacteria solution acting as a nutrient source for the  newly identified “cycling bacteria”)
TH signed a contract with a suitable company and his special bacteria solution was available for some years - unlike the competition, this version was kept chilled and had a shelf life of several months (if you were in the US you could also order it direct from the company)
It experienced considerable success among African Cichlid keepers (where all fish are usually best added in one go for best chance of a successful community or shoal (eg, Tropheus sp.))

I sort of lost track at this point ...

Enter the Newest Cycle Story - and the various papers linked by @dw1305 

Back to anecdotal “evidence” - Seachem Stability seems to work (proprietary ingredients but at least Dr Greg has the science ... though not sure how much control he retains as Seachem has become a commercial company in much the same way as the ADA story)
Note that like Dr H’s Original Stuff, Seachem Stability is also meant to be added WITH FISH - read through the Seachem FAQ page and loads of discussion on their Forum (which sadly looks to have been hacked again )
though there are several shops etc that will recommend it be used in new aquariums with first livestock additions 4-5 weeks later ... again, anecdotally that seems to work alright too
I’m somewhat lost on that logic (again ) 

If you want to “jumpstart” a “cycle” in your aquarium, add some plants/hardscape/gravel/media etc from a running aquarium 
(I don't get the objective of adding soil bacteria - which is pretty much Hagen Cycle products anyway, but sans dust - but there are plenty of folk that will swear by this method too  .... and perhaps it works in much the same way as Hagen Cycle )


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## alto (5 Sep 2020)

There are several ways to prepare bacteria for long term storage (including lyophilization, then addition of none to various solutions) - there’s a lot of investigative research and  testing that’s done first to determine what for which, and then stability testing of the various promising options
Fortunately there are also textbook techniques that generally apply to classes of bacteria etc


An open access 2019 article on bacterial growth  

*Predicting microbial growth in a mixed culture from growth curve data*
Yoav Ram, Eynat Dellus-Gur, Maayan Bibi, Kedar Karkare, Uri Obolski, Marcus W. Feldman, Tim F. Cooper, Judith Berman, and Lilach Hadany
https://www.pnas.org/content/116/29/14698


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## dw1305 (5 Sep 2020)

Hi all,





alto said:


> If you want to “jumpstart” a “cycle” in your aquarium, add some plants/hardscape/gravel/media etc from a running aquarium


I think that is definitely the best starting place.





ss_cov said:


> Anyone with a microscope has done any testing ?





jaypeecee said:


> scanning electron microscope to see some of these bacteria - got a spare £500,000?





ss_cov said:


> Like some here I'm skeptical about those products. I'm no expert but a quick Google says you can see the shape of bacteria using a compound microscope of about x1000 magnification


I'm <"sceptical as well">, but things have moved on and it is the wrong bit of kit, you now need to be able to look for DNA sequences that code for <"ammonia or nitrite oxidation">.  





alto said:


> I don't get the objective of adding soil bacteria


I think the reason it works (assuming it does) is that <"Ammonia Oxidising Archaea"> and "<COMAMMOX _Nitrospira_">_, _occur in nearly all natural situations, so when you get some soil you are actually introducing an inoculum. It is the <"one-legged Ginger Irishman">, he rides hops again.

What grows from that microbial assemblage, in the inoculum, is going to depend on all sorts factors, some of which aren't quantified yet. It looks like ammonia level is the chief driver, which means that products produced in a commercial bioreactor, with high ammonia loadings (again I'm going to guess it is all of them), aren't likely to be very suitable. 





alto said:


> some by T Hovanec


I've got a lot of time for <"Dr Hovanec">, he has revised his work in light of recent scientific advances.

cheers Darrel


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## Melll (5 Sep 2020)

What are your thoughts/opinions/research results on the EvoAqua Pure balls?


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## dw1305 (5 Sep 2020)

Hi all, 





Melll said:


> EvoAqua Pure balls?


Absolute balls <"probably">. This is the <"PFK review">.

It is like all these products, they may offer advantages to people who over-stock big messy fish in plant free environments. My argument would always be that is a <"recipe for disaster"> and any of these <"sticking plasters"> are just delaying the inevitable.

cheers Darrel


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## Melll (5 Sep 2020)

Thank you for the links, I will take a read after my sausage sarnie  👍


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## PARAGUAY (5 Sep 2020)

Never read Nathan Hills review before. In simple terms then hes saying it's more of an helpful aid to filtration than a stand alone product as claimed


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## jaypeecee (5 Sep 2020)

Hi @ss_cov


ss_cov said:


> Like some here I'm skeptical about those products. I'm no expert but a quick Google says you can see the shape of bacteria using a compound microscope of about x1000 magnification. And I guess that should be enough to test the hypothesis .
> 
> Maybe you meant electron to see them in great detail.



Yes, you may be able to see the shape of whatever you're looking at - but I was oversimplifying things. In order to actually identify the species and strain of the bacteria, people like Dr Tim Hovanec also uses DNA probes and such like. If you have access to a compound microscope that will achieve X1000 magnification, I'd be interested in your findings. My old school microscope runs out of steam much above X300.

You can satisfy your skepticism simply by putting these products to the test. Two years ago, I did just this. And I went into some detail as I found the whole topic so fascinating. The key thing about Dr Hovanec's work was that he identified the bacteria responsible for converting nitrite to nitrate as Nitrospira moscoviensis. It had previously been thought that this was the job of Nitrobacter winogradskyi, this being used in other aquarium products. And now, we realize that another microscopic form of life - Archaea - play an important role in processing nitrogenous waste in our tanks.

So, don't take my word for it. And, fear not, I'm not an employee of Tetra. Nor do I have any financial interests in this company.

If you decide to check out _SafeStart_ or any other product, there are a few basics to get right in the first place - starting ammonia concentration, water KH, pH, temperature and aeration - to name a few.

JPC


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## Tim Harrison (5 Sep 2020)

ss_cov said:


> Products like API quick start, seachem stability claim to contain live bacteria to help boost start a new tank.
> 
> Bacteria can live in water/hard surfaces so I don't question having bacteria in a bottle . But what I can't understand is they have a expiry date of several years so how does bacteria in those bottles survive that log without food?
> 
> Anyone with a microscope has done any testing ?


Many bacteria are thought to have specialised dormancy cells, for example endospores or cysts, which enable them to survive unfavourable environmental conditions.

Either way save your money. Regardless wether these products work or not they are not needed.  There is enough bacteria in the environment and on plant roots and leaves etc to inoculate any aquarium, and cycle it pretty quickly. Mine are usually safe for critters in a week or so.


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## zozo (5 Sep 2020)

Even tho it's not bacteria but fungi, but you can compare it with the freeze-dried yeast culture we use in the kitchen in the dough recipes. It can be stored for several years if kept dry, but once you add some food (moist and sugar) it revives and activates within minutes. 

Pretty amazing resilient buggers those single-celled microorganisms... 

They even can survive in space, thus flying around in it freeze-dried in a meteorite's core (Panspermia) isn't so far fetched after all. Also not really bacteria but microorganism, for the fun of it, look up the Moss Piglets survival abilities... You'll be completely astonished by what they can survive... We can nuke this planet to damnation, they still will be dancing as if nothing happened. They can survive close to absolute 0 temperature with ease. Simply come back to life after ages of dormancy. You have them in your fish tank, they love to live in mosses too. Again moss is also such a remarkable organism. Lately, scientist revived moss that was frozen in the arctic permafrost for about 30.000 years.


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## Tim Harrison (5 Sep 2020)

It is remarkable how many microorganisms can survive extremes of temp, dehydration etc in dormant states. Moss piglets or water bears or Tardigrades as they are also known are amongst the planets toughest critters.

As for moss, fissidens is as tough as old boots. Not quite the same as reviving 30,000 year old moss but I've had it sprout and thrive on reused manzi that's been scrubbed, dried, and stored in the garage over winter for several months in freezing temps. Reminds me of an old thread... Give nature half a chance...


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## zozo (5 Sep 2020)

Yes, who knows what will crawl out of this earth or maybe already has during our global warming hype. 

Meanwhile in Russia...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batagaika_crater
I think to remember it was artificially created and the thawing process can not be stopped.

Mammoth ivory miners are helping a hand too...


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## sparkyweasel (5 Sep 2020)

alto said:


> there are several shops etc that will recommend it be used in new aquariums with first livestock additions 4-5 weeks later ... again, anecdotally that seems to work alright too


That would work, because adding the first stock after 4 or 5 weeks would work without using the product.


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## sparkyweasel (5 Sep 2020)

alto said:


> If you want to “jumpstart” a “cycle” in your aquarium, add some plants/hardscape/gravel/media etc from a running aquarium


In ancient times, shops kept their plants in the same display tanks as their fish, so that took care of introducing some micro-organisms to your tank.


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## sparkyweasel (5 Sep 2020)

Melll said:


> What are your thoughts/opinions/research results on the EvoAqua Pure balls?



Here's my interesting experience with them;
Pure Balls


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## hypnogogia (5 Sep 2020)

sparkyweasel said:


> In ancient times, shops kept their plants in the same display tanks as their fish, so that took care of introducing some micro-organisms to your tank.


I guess that makes me ancient


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## Driftless (6 Sep 2020)

I have used products like ADA Bacter 100 and other bacteria products.  Remember plants are move efficient in removing ammonia than is bacteria, once your plants are growing you are good to go.


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## ss_cov (6 Sep 2020)

Thanks all for the interesting reads. It's really fascinating to think about the lives of those that we can't see...

Regarding being dormant , i heard a very interesting story that the same thing applies to human life as well. Everything goes through a cycle and there will come a time that the world goes through its phases (it burns) and life on earth is no longer there like it's there today. Although it's not really there physically,  it becomes dormant and the life would be just floating in the air.  And when the conditions become right, life will start again.


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## Melll (6 Sep 2020)

sparkyweasel said:


> Here's my interesting experience with them;
> Pure Balls



Thank you, I will take a read of that 👍


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## Luketendo (6 Sep 2020)

I had a 1 week cycle earlier this year with Amazonia Powder, Amazonia II and Power Sand Advance, along with a bunch of plants. The Power Sand Advance contains Bacter 100 which I guess one of ADA's equivalents of this kind of product (they also have green bacter). I can't tell you whether the Bacter 100 specifically helped but certainly the ammonia coming from the Amazonia and the plants as a buffer would have.


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## Surya (6 Sep 2020)

I have used Tetra SafeStart on two separate occasions, well in-date bottle, shaken well, followed the stocking instructions to the letter and tested the water for ammonia, nitrites and nitrates daily. 

It worked. Ammonia 0 throughout except 0.25 on day 3; Nitrites 0 throughout; Nitrates 10 by day 14. I then went onto weekly water changes and tested prior to each on - ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 20 each time. 

Make of that what you will. Both tanks were non-CO2 and very lightly planted with epiphytes at the time.  

Now I have plenty of cycled media so hopefully will never need to cycle a tank again...


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## jaypeecee (6 Sep 2020)

Hi @Tim Harrison 


Tim Harrison said:


> There is enough bacteria in the environment and on plant roots and leaves etc to inoculate any aquarium, and cycle it pretty quickly. Mine are usually safe for critters in a week or so.



In that case, I suspect your plants are already well established. I would have thought that plants grown in vitro, for example, would be devoid of nitrifying bacteria - is that not the case? If you are managing to get a tank ready for critters in a week, would that include fish, for example? And, what happens if the plants don't get going? Saving less than a tenner on a bottle of bacteria hardly seems worthwhile. 

JPC


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## Tim Harrison (6 Sep 2020)

Bacteria will obviously be present on plants not grown in vitro. They don't necessarily have to be well established. Further, bacteria can be latent in vitro cultures and many are considered to be endosymbionts and some perhaps beneficial. But aside from that bacteria coat every surface on this planet including your skin, and reproduce by binary fission. This response is very rapid, most bacteria have generation times of one to three hours. Some species can double every 20 minutes, given optimal conditions. If that growth rate were sustained, a single cell would give rise to a colony weighing a million kilograms in just 24 hours. However, growth is checked by nutrient availability or accumulation of metabolic wastes etc.

Given those growth rates, even if the supplements contained the right bacteria, they wouldn't really be needed. I've never used them and my tank usually cycles in about a week. meaning it's habitable for fish and other critters Save your tenner John


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## jaypeecee (8 Sep 2020)

Hi @Tim Harrison


Tim Harrison said:


> Bacteria will obviously be present on plants not grown in vitro. They don't necessarily have to be well established. Further, bacteria can be latent in vitro cultures and many are considered to be endosymbionts and some perhaps beneficial. But aside from that bacteria coat every surface on this planet including your skin, and reproduce by binary fission. This response is very rapid, most bacteria have generation times of one to three hours. Some species can double every 20 minutes, given optimal conditions. If that growth rate were sustained, a single cell would give rise to a colony weighing a million kilograms in just 24 hours. However, growth is checked by nutrient availability or accumulation of metabolic wastes etc.
> 
> Given those growth rates, even if the supplements contained the right bacteria, they wouldn't really be needed. I've never used them and my tank usually cycles in about a week. meaning it's habitable for fish and other critters Save your tenner John



Thanks for the feedback.

No-one doubts that bacteria are all _around_ us, _on_ us and _inside_ us. But, not all bacteria will break down ammonia into nitrite and then, nitrite into nitrate. This job is achieved by nitrifying bacteria and other species such as Archaea. Bottled bacteria for aquarium use contain species of nitrifying bacteria. As you are obviously having success without these products, it doesn't follow that others would have the same success. Your plants are obviously carrying nitrifying bacteria. And not just _your_ plants - there will be other aquarists whose plants are bathed in the right species of bacteria and Archaea. I know plenty of people for whom it's not uncommon to wait for up to six weeks for a tank to cycle when bacterial supplements are not used. Of course, if nitrifying bacteria can be transferred from the filter of an established tank, this is another option.

JPC


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## Tim Harrison (8 Sep 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Tim Harrison
> 
> 
> Thanks for the feedback.
> ...



I think the bacteria you're talking about are very common and will more likely than not find their way in to our tanks without being introduced.


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## jaypeecee (8 Sep 2020)

Hi @Tim Harrison 


Tim Harrison said:


> I think the bacteria you're talking about are very common and will more likely than not find their way in to our tanks without being introduced.


I seem to recall that some species and strains of nitrifying bacteria have been found in tapwater in some countries. But, I prefer not to leave things to chance. I used to be a moderator on A N Other forum. Frustration with getting tanks to cycle was all too common and possibly the reason why a lot of people registered on that forum.

JPC


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## dw1305 (9 Sep 2020)

Hi all,





jaypeecee said:


> ......... I used to be a moderator on A N Other forum. Frustration with getting tanks to cycle was all too common and possibly the reason why a lot of people registered on that forum.


I still dip in and out of <"some other forums">, where "cycling", or more often the lack of it and dead fish aftermath, are discussed.  I've learned that, in certain circumstances, there really isn't any point in even starting the <"plants and time are the answer"> conversation.





jaypeecee said:


> Bottled bacteria for aquarium use contain species of nitrifying bacteria. As you are obviously having success without these products, it doesn't follow that others would have the same success.


It is back to <"Donald Rumsfeld territory">, too many unknown unknowns.

I would regard the efficacy of bacterial supplements as "unknown", but I'm pretty sure they aren't going to do any harm, as long as you don't add ammonia (NH3) at the same time, and then any issues would be with the ammonia. 

You would really need to know the ammonia loading that the supplements were produced under and I'm not sure that any company will tell you*, I'm going to work under the assumption that they are produced commercially in Bioreactors under high ammonia loading, which is likely to greatly reduce their suitability for planted aquariums. The reason why the production method would matter is that recent scientific research has shown that the <"COMAMMOX _Nitrospira_ and Ammonia Oxidising Archaea (AOA)">, that are actually found in aquarium filters, are <"oligotrophic">. 

*I'll try contacting <"Dr Tim Hovanec">, as my guess is that he is the most likely person to reply to us, but I would still assume it is a long shot. 

cheers Darrel


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## zozo (9 Sep 2020)

Tim Harrison said:


> Some species can double every 20 minutes, given optimal conditions.



I suspect they are much faster than that. A lot of us experienced cloudy/milky tank water one time or another, caused by Bacterial Bloom... As far as I could find this seems to be caused by a nitrifying bacteria sp. multiplying like made after a water change or substrate disturbing causing a mini ammonia spike or something else delicious for a bacterial bloom feasting on it.

Then do a 70% water change all seems to be clear and within minutes you see it getting equally cloudy again as before. Even a second water change doesn't seem to break the cycle, at least I once tried I experienced it was darn cloudy again within less than 15 minutes. And this cloudiness goes on for a couple of hours and clears up by itself.

They multiply unbelievably fast, I don't know any numbers but making 70% of clear water volume cloudy again, that also means you took out 70% of the present population, within minutes... That's a lot more than double i guess...  
Looks more like every 5 minutes if given the correct conditions. 💪


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## Nick potts (9 Sep 2020)

zozo said:


> I suspect they are much faster than that. A lot of us experienced cloudy/milky tank water one time or another, caused by Bacterial Bloom... As far as I could find this seems to be caused by a nitrifying bacteria sp. multiplying like made after a water change or substrate disturbing causing a mini ammonia spike or something else delicious for a bacterial bloom feasting on it.
> 
> Then do a 70% water change all seems to be clear and within minutes you see it getting equally cloudy again as before. Even a second water change doesn't seem to break the cycle, at least I once tried I experienced it was darn cloudy again within less than 15 minutes. And this cloudiness goes on for a couple of hours and clears up by itself.
> 
> ...



Even the fastest bacteria have a generation time (doubling time) in the 10's of minutes. Whereas many of the bacteria responsible for aquarium filtration etc has a generation time in the hours (up to 14 hours)

I don't know what other factors cause the cloudiness but I don't believe it can purely be the bacterial mass.


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## zozo (9 Sep 2020)

Nick potts said:


> I don't know what other factors cause the cloudiness but I don't believe it can purely be the bacterial mass.



I guess you are correct...  I've been looking for some scientific data on this, didn't find any... But the best explanation i came across is this. Or I must say best believable...



> The term “bacterial bloom” is a bit of a misnomer. The actual organisms are a complex montage called infusoria. “Infusoria” is a collective term for minute aquatic creatures such as ciliates, euglenoids, protozoa, paramecium, unicellular algae and bacteria that exist in all aquariums and freshwater ponds. Most infusoria feed on bacteria.



Whatever the collective contains it's in the millions and it's able to reproduce astonishingly fast...


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## jaypeecee (9 Sep 2020)

Hi @dw1305


dw1305 said:


> I'll try contacting <"Dr Tim Hovanec">, as my guess is that he is the most likely person to reply to us, but I would still assume it is a long shot.



I have had an email discussion - once - with Dr Tim. The last time I tried to contact him, I got no reply.


dw1305 said:


> I would regard the efficacy of bacterial supplements as "unknown", but I'm pretty sure they aren't going to do any harm, as long as you don't add ammonia (NH3) at the same time, and then any issues would be with the ammonia.



I have successfully used ammonia many times. Specifically, I use ammonium chloride with a starting concentration of 2 to 3 ppm total ammonia (NH3 + NH4). It is not a good idea to use more than 4 ppm total ammonia. Excess ammonia can kill some species of nitrite-oxidizing bacteria. But, Nitrospira have been shown to oxidize ammonia to nitrite and then to nitrate. They are therefore now classed as Commamox bacteria - complete ammonia oxidizers. For more information:

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature16461

JPC


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## jaypeecee (9 Sep 2020)

Hi Folks,


jaypeecee said:


> I have successfully used ammonia many times.



I should add that this is a fishless and plantless cycle. Indeed, no livestock of any form (apart from the bacteria).

JPC


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## dw1305 (9 Sep 2020)

Hi all, 





jaypeecee said:


> have had an email discussion - once - with Dr Tim. The last time I tried to contact him, I got no reply.


I've emailed, so fingers crossed.





jaypeecee said:


> But, Nitrospira have been shown to oxidize ammonia to nitrite and then to nitrate. They are therefore now classed as Commamox bacteria - complete ammonia oxidizers


We've got a few threads <"that look at COMAMMOX _Nitrospira_">.





jaypeecee said:


> Specifically, I use ammonium chloride with a starting concentration of 2 to 3 ppm total ammonia


I've never been an fan of cycling with ammonia. I only keep planted tanks, so my original question was "_why would adding  a lot more ammonia that your tank is ever going to see again be a good idea?", _but people could answer that with the <"high ammonia/high pH"> linear nature of cycling. <"I was dubious about this"> as well, but didn't have any scientific argument to refute it.

But now the <"past is a different country"> and I would be very, very surprised if this <"research, on aquarium filters">, isn't right. 

cheers Darrel


https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/bacteria-biological-starters.52928/page-2#post-524364


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## jaypeecee (9 Sep 2020)

Hi Folks,


jaypeecee said:


> I have successfully used ammonia many times.



And, just in case it's not clear, _I only use ammonia to get the biological filter established_. Thereafter, no further additions of ammonia are needed. Not only that but additional ammonia would potentially kill livestock. Once the biological filter is established, it receives a steady supply of ammonia excreted by fish, etc. and from breakdown of any detritus.

JPC


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## dw1305 (10 Sep 2020)

Hi all, 





dw1305 said:


> I've emailed, so fingers crossed.


Fingers uncrossed.

I've received a very comprehensive reply from Dr Hovanec, so I'll start a <"new thread">* once I've confirmed with him that I can quote his email reply _verbatim_.

*thread linked in.

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee (13 Sep 2020)

Hi @dw1305 

Excellent! What great news! Time to read Dr Tim's reply...

JPC


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