# Potassium deficiency?



## dan4x4 (28 Jun 2017)

Hi I'm guessing the pics below are a potassium deficiency. But Im not sure. I'm dosing dry ferts. EI method, got my salts here http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/fertilisers/dry-chemicals/dry-salts.html?limit=all

I have bumped up the dosing of macro and micro to 30ml a day. separate micro and macro days.

I did a water test
PH 6.8
KH 3 degrees
GH Over 16 degrees
NO2 - 0
NO3 50PPM

Low tech planted aquarium. 30% water change weekly. Some algae in the tank but you really have to look for it.

Flow is between 7-10 times the volume of the tank through the juwel ecco pump and also a jecod wave maker (please note the wave maker is on a constant flow not wave).

Lighting was 4 hours on a morning 8-12, then 6-10. However i have increased the light recently by an hour on the evening to see if this makes a difference.

Stock in the tank is 10 tiger barbs who are fed well, 5 cherry/bee shrimps, immigrant snails that sneaked in on plants.


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## dan4x4 (28 Jun 2017)

a.


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## dan4x4 (28 Jun 2017)

all plants are affected, it was water lettuce first. then everything else, echinodours, sagittaria, aponogeton, crpyts. Actually Crinum and Littorella uniflora dont seem affected.


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## zozo (28 Jun 2017)

Could be.. Java fern is a bad indicator plant, not because it's a slow grower, it tends to die off older leaves by nature, looking like it gets depleted from mobile elements. But it's more a plant characteristic to do that. Water letuce is a plant also demanding a lot of light, indoor this is a rather difficult plant and could show deficiencies because of light deficiency while it grows older and bigger. So also this plant can be distracting as indicator use. Frogbit would be a beter choice.

Anyway, Potassium is a pretty harmless element, so it is a very easy and safe to add extra. If you take K2SO4 and add 2 grams on a 100 litre, you'll add about 10 ppm K. It can't hurt to add some extra.


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## dan4x4 (28 Jun 2017)

zozo said:


> Could be.. Java fern is a bad indicator plant, not because it's a slow grower, it tends to die off older leaves by nature, looking like it gets depleted from mobile elements. But it's more a plant characteristic to do that. Water letuce is a plant also demanding a lot of light, indoor this is a rather difficult plant and could show deficiencies because of light deficiency while it grows older and bigger. So also this plant can be distracting as indicator use. Frogbit would be a beter choice.
> 
> Anyway, Potassium is a pretty harmless element, so it is a very easy and safe to add extra. If you take K2SO4 and add 2 grams on a 100 litre, you'll add about 10 ppm K. It can't hurt to add some extra.



Thanks again Zozo. Ill do it now


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## dan4x4 (28 Jun 2017)

I don't have it, i have..

KH2PO4 - Potassium Phosphate
KNO3 - Potassium Nitrate

and

MgSO4 Magnesium Sulphate

Would of of the first 2 suffice?

Thanks


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## zozo (28 Jun 2017)

Get it... !

Look at this..
http://www.theaquatools.com/fertilization-calculator

Add litres and grams to add.. Than see bellow to amounts added.. You would need to add quite a lot of KH2PO4 to add a little K. In the long run i'm not sure that will work for a assumed K deficiency..  Because you would add more PO4 than K..


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## AverageWhiteBloke (28 Jun 2017)

I'm no expert in deficiency but could this be antagonism of some kind? Not sure which excess of what would cause it.



dan4x4 said:


> Low tech planted aquarium. 30% water change weekly. Some algae in the tank but you really have to look for it.



I find it hard to believe that dosing EI in a low tech with 30% changes that you would end up def in K. Water is very hard as well so maybe preventing something else. I do 50% in highish lighting and not even full EI and haven’t came across any potassium issues before. Dosing full EI in a low tech with those WC's I'd imagine there's quite a build up.


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## dan4x4 (28 Jun 2017)

OK obviously no expert in this but has anyone added ash, as in the left overs from burnt wood to the tank, apparently it is a source of potassium?


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## dan4x4 (28 Jun 2017)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> I'm no expert in deficiency but could this be antagonism of some kind? Not sure which excess of what would cause it.
> 
> 
> 
> I find it hard to believe that dosing EI in a low tech with 30% changes that you would end up def in K. Water is very hard as well so maybe preventing something else. I do 50% in highish lighting and not even full EI and haven’t came across any potassium issues before. Dosing full EI in a low tech with those WC's I'd imagine there's quite a build up.




When you say antagonism, like another nutrient within the tank is preventing the uptake?


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## AverageWhiteBloke (28 Jun 2017)

Yeah mate. Not sure how it all works but apparently it happens. Are you doing EI at full values? Maybe this image would throw some light on it. Not sure of which way the arrows go though.



Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


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## dan4x4 (28 Jun 2017)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Yeah mate. Not sure how it all works but apparently it happens. Are you doing EI at full values? Maybe this image would throw some light on it. Not sure of which way the arrows go though.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk




lol yeah this is confusing, I'm going to order some K2SO4. See if that works first. fingers crossed


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## AverageWhiteBloke (28 Jun 2017)

What about co2. I'm assuming when you say low tech you mean you have none or LC? What lights you got swinging above there and how long they on for? From what I gather your co2 will be coming from natural gas exchange with weekly changes maybe most is gassing off and your plant mass has hit a point where it's fancying a bit more carbon. 

Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


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## AverageWhiteBloke (28 Jun 2017)

Haha yeah confusion reigns, with ref to the chart I'm assuming that you would work backwards on the arrows. I.E we know that phosphate and Iron don't get on so if you look at the chart arrows in both directions so too much iron causes issues with po4 and vice versa so your case k has issues with magnesium, boron, nitrogen , phosphate and calcium. So in a tank with high hardness and too many ferts it may be in the frame. Or carbon lol.

Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


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## AverageWhiteBloke (28 Jun 2017)

I hope the pot sulf works for, there's quite a lot of k in kno3 compared to kh2po4 so maybe dosing a bit more kno3 for now may help but like I said even people with high light tanks don't bother with K unless the dose po4 and kno3 leaner then supplement with a bit of k to make up the difference. 

Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


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## zozo (29 Jun 2017)

I do  because i get > 25ppm N from the water company, according to them, rather more then less in my region.. Together with feeding and fish pooping around i estimate i have enough of that. I skipped adding KNO3 and only add little KH2PO4, enough K2SO4 to have at least an extra 10 ppm and trace elements.

Anyway my Hygroryza arista grows and colors much beter with this new regime..  Before with adding KNO3 it didn't.. And before that with a complete fert it also didn't..


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## AverageWhiteBloke (29 Jun 2017)

I have just started adding a touch of K in my dosing. Not sure if I needed it or not, I recently bought some Blue Rams which prefer soft water. I have soft water out of my tap, V soft in fact 39 TDS but my TDS was getting up there @ 250> in the tank with 50%+ wc's on a weekly basis and the odd random 25% when I got the time. My tapwater according to the water company has no nitrogen but about 2ppm phosphate which they add to remove iron. Bought myself some duck weed and over the last month or two have started reducing my salt dosing to the point where my TDS is levelling out between WC's and currently dosing about a third less than I was. Duck weed looks fine but I did have some holes appearing in leaves on some S.Repens, can't blame definitely potassium because I let the repens grow too dense and clipped them right down to the base so it may be just light starved down there. Added a touch of K via pot sulphate just to make sure, I'll see how this pans out but being quite heavily stocked with fish I don't think there is a nitrogen issue yet, I don't think I'll go any leaner for now.

I knocked the below up when I was reducing dosing by a couple of mil per week just to get an idea of when K may start becoming an issue, it is based on the amount of K derived from dosing KH2PO4 and KNO3 at EI levels with no added K. As you can see you can come down a fair bit in dosing before K would start becoming something one would consider as bordering in deficient. Hence my assumption antagonism may play a part in the OP's issues IF that's what it is, we don't know the lighting and carbon setup yet. With my lighting and co2 dosing and not experiencing any K issues all the time I was dosing EI at top end combined with my plant mass and floaters sucking out a fair bit of nutrients I can't really see how the OP would be experiencing a lack of potassium, you never know though. Looking at Mulders chart though an excess of NO3 and PO4 could supposedly prevent uptake of K and if I was dosing too high with my setup and getting a build up of left over ferts could the OP be in the same boat? Only way to find out would be larger water changes for a while to see if this improves the situation and definitely some LC to cover the carbon if none is in there. I've came down to 15ml per dose from 20ml which as you can see still puts me in K EI threshold.


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## zozo (30 Jun 2017)

That's a nice log you made there..


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## AverageWhiteBloke (30 Jun 2017)

zozo said:


> That's a nice log you made there..



Haha, Thanks, I have my moments. And very easy to remember 40/4 when mixing my bottles. Should have put Magnesium on there I guess but I find 1 level teaspoon is circa 5 grams of epsom salts and 5 grams=5ppm in a 100ltr tank the threshold for Magnesium being 5>10ppm. Anything that takes a bit of head work out is good for me.


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## zozo (30 Jun 2017)

What about the statement you can read at most aquarium fert related articles. That if gH is above 4 we likely do not need epsom?
Ever since i'm kinda asking myself, should i still add for the sake of whatever?..


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## AverageWhiteBloke (30 Jun 2017)

I think it was Darrel who was saying not so long back that there is only certain places in the UK where magnesium comes out of the tap because of the Geology but in General most people in the UK will need to add it. Even in hard tap water areas in the UK the hardness isn't from magnesium so would still need some. Up north where I'm from the geology is mainly granite and slate so the water is extremely soft, same goes for Scotland but darn sarf with the shandy drinkers who have notoriously hard water the hardness is mainly made up from Gypsum which is more calcium related I guess. Hence the white cliffs of dover and gypsum being called plaster of Paris as I believe Paris is also built on it. Makes sense as France and England were joined at some point until a river turned into a channel after the ice age.

Don't know how this applies in other parts of the world. My water was extremely soft anyway until they decided to blend it with some underground water while work is being carried out and the TDS has doubled, much to my annoyance keeping softwater species fish.

I would say as long as there is no chlorosis in old leaves things should be fine on the Mag front.


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## ian_m (30 Jun 2017)

zozo said:


> That if gH is above 4 we likely do not need epsom?


Only if your hard water contains magnesium, which is likely to be yes in the US but no in rest of the world.

See this post.
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/switched-to-ei-what-went-wrong.39438/page-2#post-492462


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## AverageWhiteBloke (30 Jun 2017)

Same would apply to Ireland as well as that was also a connected land mass with England. Hence the legend that St Patrick chased all the snakes out of Ireland but in reality the snakes couldn't get to Ireland, by the time England was warm enough for snakes the ice had melted and we had the Irish sea dividing the countries. Religion meets science again, just thought I'd share, prince of trivia me  One day I'll remember something useful.


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## papa_c (1 Jul 2017)

interesting discussion, i got this from Cambridgeshire water which indicates almost perfect levels of Mg and Ca in the mains water supply....would welcome any comments on this...


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## Soilwork (2 Jul 2017)

Well I only have 11mg/Ca, just over 1mg/l magnesium same for phosphates and nitrates and a conductivity of 109uS.  You can see the difference in source waters and how they can affect plant nutrient uptake.  

Calcium is the key is it competes with magnesium, potassium, and most of the heavy metals.  In cases of hard water.  More of these elements may be  necessary to see improved health and growth.  Especially magnesium as already stated.  Calcium phospahtes precipitation could be an issue as well as iron phosphates meaning stronger chelates and possibles more iron dosing.  You may need to add more trace elements too.  More carbonate hardness higher ph also equals reduced micro nutrient availability.

Soft water comes with its own set of problems were micro element mixes become crucial. Too much of any one thing for any given tank can be detrimental or result in induced deficiencies.  You may get away with dosing less macros and micros as AWB has alluded to because the calcium isn't there to compete or protect against toxicities. There's so much to consider and is the reason why EI isn't the silver bullet for all nutrient dosing and why many methods work for different mini ecosystems.


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## Daveslaney (2 Jul 2017)

I dont think EI has ever claimed to be a Silver bullet to be honest. If you read the method correctly.
Full EI is a useful as a starting point for your fert dosing routine. You can then concentrate on your flow Co2 and maintence routine and forget about your ferts because they are in the non limiting range, more than most will ever need. Once you have this correct.Then you tailor the dosing to your own tank routine. So I totaly agree there is no one size fits all perfect routine.
Most problems seem to arise when people start to alter the ratios in the fert mix, forget the water change for one reason or another and jump straight on the ferts for the probable causes. When really the answers are something alot more simple.
And no I am not a EI fanboy or whatever I just use the best method that works for me. We would all like to be able to dose just the right amount of everything to suit our own tank. But in reality with the time and resources most of us have available to us this will never happen.
So we will all have some excess or another.


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## Soilwork (2 Jul 2017)

EI may not claim to be the silver bullet but unfortunately and (unlike yourself in this instance) the vast majority of its users believe and claim it is. 

There's too much contradiction on this forum.  One minute EI is a starting point, an arbitrary figure, an idex.  It should be tailored to suit your own tank.  But then in the next breath all problems seem to arise when people alter the ratios in their mix or '99.9% of people have problems when they roll their own' or 'It's not supposed to be set in stone' then in the next sentence 'why are you inventing your own version of EI'? Etc etc.  Confusing! 

How can you avoid altering ratios if you can target EI using various different micro fertilisers? The target is 0.2ppm Fe but using what? A seachem product? CSM+B? Aquarium plant food trace mix? Millers microplex? They all have different ratios.


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## xim (3 Jul 2017)

Soilwork said:


> Well I only have 11mg/Ca, just over 1mg/l magnesium same for phosphates and nitrates and a conductivity of 109uS.  You can see the difference in source waters and how they can affect plant nutrient uptake.
> 
> Calcium is the key is it competes with magnesium, potassium, and most of the heavy metals.  In cases of hard water.  More of these elements may be  necessary to see improved health and growth.  Especially magnesium as already stated.  Calcium phospahtes precipitation could be an issue as well as iron phosphates meaning stronger chelates and possibles more iron dosing.  You may need to add more trace elements too.  More carbonate hardness higher ph also equals reduced micro nutrient availability.
> 
> Soft water comes with its own set of problems were micro element mixes become crucial. Too much of any one thing for any given tank can be detrimental or result in induced deficiencies.  You may get away with dosing less macros and micros as AWB has alluded to because the calcium isn't there to compete or protect against toxicities. There's so much to consider and is the reason why EI isn't the silver bullet for all nutrient dosing and why many methods work for different mini ecosystems.



But if I remember correctly, Tom Barr lives in soft water areas most of the time, except Davis and Santa Barbara (USA). Now he is in SF with 0-1 dGH and dKH soft water.



Soilwork said:


> The target is 0.2ppm Fe but using what? A seachem product? CSM+B? Aquarium plant food trace mix? Millers microplex? They all have different ratios.



Yeah, I see the problem here. The Seachem's would precipitate too easily in hard water while Cu level in Microplex would be over the roof (1200x higher than the Seachem's) to get the same 0.2 PPM of Fe.


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## Soilwork (3 Jul 2017)

If I recall Tom has been rolling his own form of dosing regimen for a while. He wasn't following EI for micros at the time of this thread and he was throwing all kinds of chelated iron in.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...eters/853001-csm-b-toxicity-experiment-6.html

Tom most likely changes way more water than the average EI user so his nutritient concentration at any one time is difficult to extrapolate.

I like Tom but there is so much more to aquatic plant horticulture than flow and co2 distribution.  We are so obsessed with co2 these days that it's become very difficult not to achieve the right levels for our tanks.  If overdosing ferts work in every instance for every plant for every tank then we would all be talking about which plant placement looks best before we enter ourselves in to the next big aquascaping event rather than potassium deficiency.


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## Daveslaney (3 Jul 2017)

Im no expert only really go on my personal experiances. Never having a problem with micros all I have ever done is reduce the dose amount I use. Ie I now dose 20ml daily not 25. But I also put the mg in the with the micro mix to.
But could the same not be said of any fert dosing routine not just EI?
Ask any question anywhere and you will more than likely get ten different answer's. 
With regard to water changes if you run massively high light, high co2 to get the high growth rates reported I would expect the maintance will be higher too. So you will have to change more water.
The water changes are not just to reset the fert balance but also to remove the orgnic waste produced by the plants. So the higher the growth rate the more waste is produced, so the more water to change?.


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## Soilwork (3 Jul 2017)

I agree with all those comments.  Tom most probably was or still does reset his tank at least twice a week.  He's always advocated large frequent water changes.  As too did Clive.  But Clive's water hardness could not even be measured on the GH liquid test if I recall.  His experience with dumping insane levels of fertilisers were meaningless to me.  He was probably just precipitating most of his ferts and then pouring them down the sink.  His plants were obviously feeding though. 

Even EI dosing ratios will be manipulated by the ecosystem so its still different for everyone and that's why you get 10 different answers. 

I've stopped using chelates.  I mix my own micro solution.  I may need to add more so that they stay in solution.  I add large amounts of co2 mainly to reduce ph and make the traces more available. Still in experimental phase.  I need to change more water myself.  I can only gass off 20L at time which is only a third of my tank volume. 

To be honest it doesn't look like potassium deficiency in the Original photos.  More like they are being eaten.  But as we know.  Snails only eat dying leaves.  May well have been issues long before the holes appear.  Difficult to tell.


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## dan4x4 (10 Jul 2017)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> What about co2. I'm assuming when you say low tech you mean you have none or LC? What lights you got swinging above there and how long they on for? From what I gather your co2 will be coming from natural gas exchange with weekly changes maybe most is gassing off and your plant mass has hit a point where it's fancying a bit more carbon.
> 
> Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk



Hi, Sorry for late reply I've been on holiday. Wifi rubbish lol.

Lights
Lighting is 2x 28 watt t5 juwel daylight tubes. 
Period of lighting is 5 hours on a morning from 8am. Then off till 5pm when they come on for another 5 hours till 10pm.
The tank is in my front room, when the sun is out it gets around 45 mins real sunlight on an evening.

Carbon/co2
non, I wanted to avoid using pressurised co2. I chose "easy low light" plants in the hope that I could just get by low tech style.
I also want to avoid using gluteraldehyde as its not natural in my eyes. 

--

So as a starting point, aquarium plant food has no stock of K2SO4. So I found this on amazon https://www.amazon.co.uk/500g-Potas...?ie=UTF8&qid=1499693853&sr=8-1&keywords=k2so4 same thing I assume.

Ill look to double water changes as a starting point and continue to dose EI at full dose. Once the ferts arrive Ill try adding a little as per zoo's advice.

Ill keep everyone posted.


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## xim (10 Jul 2017)

Soilwork said:


> But Clive's water hardness could not even be measured on the GH liquid test if I recall.



Yeah and the thought of expired GH test kit pops up every time when I come across this story. An expired GH test kit is just like that. I mean I don't doubt his water is very hard. But it should not be that hard. Just saying.


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## dan4x4 (20 Sep 2017)

OK just wanted to say I managed to fix the problem. Reducing ferts didn't seem to do much. I used K2SO4. I added a pinch to the tank and also some into my macro mix.

Ive gone through that bottle of macro now and haven't added any k2so4 this time. I do have an algae problem, as in theres too much of it. It is under control and I've ordered dome hydrogen peroxide to help me out.


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## ceg4048 (22 Sep 2017)

Soilwork said:


> Calcium is the key is it competes with magnesium, potassium, and most of the heavy metals. In cases of hard water. More of these elements may be necessary to see improved health and growth. Especially magnesium as already stated. Calcium phospahtes precipitation could be an issue as well as iron phosphates meaning stronger chelates and possibles more iron dosing. You may need to add more trace elements too. More carbonate hardness higher ph also equals reduced micro nutrient availability.


Hello,
        This statement is not true for aquatic plants. You, or your source for this information has extrapolated this from terrestrial plants. In aquatic plants, Ca and Mg+ do not compete, and neither does Ca compete with any metal. Therefore it is not necessary to dose extra anything, however, the good news is that you can dose extra everything without penalty.

Cheers,


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## Soilwork (22 Sep 2017)

ceg4048 said:


> Hello,
> This statement is not true for aquatic plants. You, or your source for this information has extrapolated this from terrestrial plants. In aquatic plants, Ca and Mg+ do not compete, and neither does Ca compete with any metal. Therefore it is not necessary to dose extra anything, however, the good news is that you can dose extra everything without penalty.
> 
> Cheers,



Hi 

Perhaps you are correct.  This information has been extrapolated from terrestrial plants.  I haven't seen anything of this related to aquatic plants specifically however, if for some reason the plant was to completely alter its evolutionary nutrient uptake mechanisms by being placed a foot underwater there are still penalties to consider with high something's with regards to fauna.  Namely heavy metals.  There are copious amounts of studies that show the protective effects of calcium on heavy metal toxicity in terms of microorganisms, fish, inverts etc.  In hard water yes you may be able to does extra everything without fear of reprecussion however, instructing someone to do this in very soft water could be seen as boarderline irresponsible in my opinion. 

Wouldn't it be great though if everybody could dose extra everything's without repercussions? That would mean that by grabbing a spraybar and some co2 everybody would have fantastic looking plants all of the time. 

People have been attempting to dose extra everything for the past 10 years and have still not been able to recreate their most prized aquascaping inspirations.  Why is this? I really do wish it was that simple or do I? Hobby might become a little less interesting.


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## dan4x4 (22 Sep 2017)

Yes in walstads book she does confirm what soilwork is saying, more ca means less risk of metal toxicity.


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## Soilwork (22 Sep 2017)

dan4x4 said:


> Yes in walstads book she does confirm what soilwork is saying, more ca means less risk of metal toxicity.



She does.  However alluding to Ceg4048's statement there is no information of toxicity towards aquatic plants in the book.  Mainly it describes how soil, humic substances, dissolved organic compounds, Calcium and to a lesser extent magnesium protect fauna against such toxicities. 

Depending on the substrate choice, source water, dosing method, micro element mix used and the frequency of water changes there may well be a chance that excessive levels of the heavy metals build up beyond the toxicity threshold of a certain species before the water change is able to reduce the concentration.  It's the fact the we do not know what that threshold is for most of the species of creatures we keep in our tanks and the fact that we do not know the exact science of how these metals interact within the water column that makes it all the more important to be mindful of how much we dose.

I'm thinking of adding some crushed coral to my filter to raise the carbonate hardness and calcium levels of my tank water.  With the ph nearing 6.0 it should dissolve readily.


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## dan4x4 (22 Sep 2017)

I add sachem equilibrium every now and then.


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## ceg4048 (23 Sep 2017)

Soilwork said:


> Depending on the substrate choice, source water, dosing method, micro element mix used and the frequency of water changes there may well be a chance that excessive levels of the heavy metals build up beyond the toxicity threshold of a certain species before the water change is able to reduce the concentration. It's the fact the we do not know what that threshold is for most of the species of creatures we keep in our tanks and the fact that we do not know the exact science of how these metals interact within the water column that makes it all the more important to be mindful of how much we dose.


The level is so high you will never reach it. You never need to worry about metal toxicity.
What you do need to worry about is not having enough. This is more relevant to RO users, but even this is very easy to solve - just add some. The levels do not _need _to be high, but they _can _be high without any penalty whatsoever.

Cheers,


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## AverageWhiteBloke (23 Sep 2017)

ceg4048 said:


> The level is so high you will never reach it. You never need to worry about metal toxicity.



What about the likes of copper built into most traces? I know you aren't a shrimp keeper and I'm not sure what levels shrimp will tolerate. Just wondering at what point copper might become an issue? I also hear that tannins/humic acids help keep metal toxicity down in soft water. I generally have almond and oak leaves in my softwater tanks hoping to prevent this.


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## ceg4048 (23 Sep 2017)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> What about the likes of copper built into most traces? I know you aren't a shrimp keeper and I'm not sure what levels shrimp will tolerate. Just wondering at what point copper might become an issue? I also hear that tannins/humic acids help keep metal toxicity down in soft water. I generally have almond and oak leaves in my softwater tanks hoping to prevent this.


See my comments in this thread mate. https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/crs-and-ei-dosing-copper.29921/

Cheers,


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