# Losing battle with tank



## kellyboy47 (20 Aug 2022)

Having to repost because despite my best efforts this black slimey substance which I assume is algae is invasive to all parts of the tank from plants to hardscape to filters / glass (Please see attached photos)

I am still doing a 60 litre (33%) water change every week and clean both internal filters weekly but the problem is not abating although the fish seem fine. I'm worried the this 'black substance' is leeching into my substrate so just wondered if I should drain the tank down , clean thoroughly and buy new substrate. The tank was fine until I moved in February and the plants were growing so well but this is a battle I been waging since then and to be honest my patience is wearing a bit thin now. Any help / advice would be most welcome. The frogbit is growing well but I'm not sure its helping as it should

This is my tank:
1. Size of tank in litres.                                             180
2. Age of the set - up.                                                4 months
3. Filtration.                                                                    Juwel Internal Filter and Fluval U4
4. Lighting and duration.                                         Juwel Helialux 920
5. Substrate.                                                                   Tropica Aquarium Soil
6. Co2 dosing or Non-dosing.                               Easycarbo (daily)
7. Fertilizers used &  Ratios.                                   Macro (Potassium Nitrate/Magnesium Sulphate/Potassium Phosphate)  Micro ferts (Chelated Trace)  alternate days                    
8. Water change regime and type.                     60 litres weekly and both filter material cleaned
9. Plant list + When planted.                                  Echinodorus Bleheri & Hottonia
10. Inhabitants.                                                             3 x Blue Acara (Large)  2 x Bolivian Ram, 1 x Rainbowfish, 5 x Corydoras
11. Full tank shot & Surface Image.                   Attached

And this is my current lighting period
Dawn         9-10            White 0%   Blue 40%
Sunrise      11-1           White 85%  Blue 85%
Sunset        5-8              White 5%  Blue 40%
Dusk            9-10.30    White 0%  Blue 0%


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## Geoffrey Rea (20 Aug 2022)

Looks like Cyanobacteria @kellyboy47


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## MirandaB (20 Aug 2022)

Definitely Cyano and the current warmer ambient temperatures won't be helping ime.
Did you reuse the substrate when you moved the tank?


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## kellyboy47 (20 Aug 2022)

MirandaB said:


> Did you reuse the substrate when you moved the tank?


Yes I did I drained the tank to about an inch and saved the majority of the original water for reuse so left the substrate in situ


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## jaypeecee (20 Aug 2022)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> Looks like Cyanobacteria @kellyboy47





MirandaB said:


> Definitely Cyano and the current warmer ambient temperatures won't be helping ime.


Hi @kellyboy47

Yes, that classic blue-green colour says it all - Cyanobacteria. And, it's possibly going to need a lot of work to eliminate it. I'm afraid that I'm one of those people who places a lot of importance on water parameters. So, I'd be interested in knowing the following:

Water temperature, pH, KH, GH, Nitrate, Phosphate and Iron. And, of course, CO2 concentration (using a Drop Checker). May I ask - are you using tap water? If so, have you got a copy of your water company's water report? BTW, what is the reason for adding Easy Carbo?

I suspect your tank lighting appears quite bright. Is that how you would judge it?

As you will no doubt have discovered, we aquatics hobbyists often do things differently from each other. There are almost as many approaches to this hobby as there are hobbyists.

I hope you receive sufficient replies to decide on the best way forward.

JPC


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## tam (21 Aug 2022)

There is no point swapping out substrate, it only needs invisible traces to come back. If you search the forum for cyano there are loads of posts on getting rid. It's good to work out why - sometimes it's low flow areas and excess mulm so a good clean and redirecting flow an help. Once it's there though, fixing the initial problem doesn't necessary get rid of it, it tends to hang on. You can try chemical for an easy fix, but my steps for removal is a big water change, manually removing anything you can see (toothbrush/syphon etc.), then cover the tank glass with card to block out ambient light and turn of the tank lights for 5 days and do another water change. Fingers crossed it should then be gone.


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## kellyboy47 (21 Aug 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> Water temperature, pH, KH, GH, Nitrate, Phosphate and Iron. And, of course, CO2 concentration (using a Drop Checker). May I ask - are you using tap water? If so, have you got a copy of your water company's water report? BTW, what is the reason for adding Easy Carbo?


Water temp 24.5
Ammonia 0.5ppm
Nitrite 0.0 ppm
Nitrate 20ppm
PH 7.6

I do not use injected CO2 but add 4ml of Aquadip Liquid carbon daily together with Macro / Micro ferts

I do use tapwater but add Tetra Aquasafe to the water and I live in a Very Hard water area according to my supplier Southern water
With regards to the lighting brightness I would advicxe from anybody using the Juwel HeliaLux system as I think a lot of this is trial and error


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## kellyboy47 (21 Aug 2022)

tam said:


> There is no point swapping out substrate, it only needs invisible traces to come back. If you search the forum for cyano there are loads of posts on getting rid. It's good to work out why - sometimes it's low flow areas and excess mulm so a good clean and redirecting flow an help. Once it's there though, fixing the initial problem doesn't necessary get rid of it, it tends to hang on. You can try chemical for an easy fix, but my steps for removal is a big water change, manually removing anything you can see (toothbrush/syphon etc.), then cover the tank glass with card to block out ambient light and turn of the tank lights for 5 days and do another water change. Fingers crossed it should then be gone.


So should I be hoovering the substrate if I'm not removing it ?
 I do use 2 internal filters (always have done to increase flow) so should I remove the Fluval U4 and just leave the  Juwel in situ ?
What are you suggesting for a big water change ?


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## tam (21 Aug 2022)

kellyboy47 said:


> So should I be hoovering the substrate if I'm not removing it ?
> I do use 2 internal filters (always have done to increase flow) so should I remove the Fluval U4 and just leave the  Juwel in situ ?
> What are you suggesting for a big water change ?



It depends, if you've a lot of mulm built up then sphoning the top of the substrate may help - it's more pockets that don't get a lot of flow e.g. around hardscape rather than you need to deep syphon the substrate.

I wouldn't remove flow, again it's more considering if there are any areas that don't get a lot of flow.

I'd do a 50% change if that's practical.


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## jaypeecee (22 Aug 2022)

Hi @kellyboy47

Thanks for the water test results.

I just want to clarify a couple of things. I assume that the blackened sponges were originally inside what seems to be a Juwel filter? And, have those sponges now been cleaned in a separate container of aquarium water before returning them to the tank itself? Back to the blue-green cyanobacteria growth on what appears like a glass panel, is it receiving direct sunlight?

Finally, you appear to be adding a lot of ferts to your tank and, unless I'm mistaken, the _Tropica Aquarium Soil_ includes nutrients. I also note that "Aquarium Soil is further an active bottom layer that lowers the pH value and slightly affects the water chemistry." With relatively few plants, I suspect that one possibility is to add some fast-growing stem plants. That should reduce/help to control the nutrient levels in the water column. In other words, less available for the cyanobacteria.

Good luck!

JPC


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## kellyboy47 (22 Aug 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @kellyboy47
> 
> Thanks for the water test results.
> 
> ...


No the blackened sponges were from the Fluval U4, and yes I always clean them in a separate container of aquarium water before putting them back. They have reached the blackened condition at the end of a 7 day period when I do a water change, and no the aqaurium does receive direct sunlight. I bought the Frogbit to help deal with the algae and cut out some of the aqaurium light and it has grown well. I also bought some hornwort but this got covered in the cyanobacteria so I had to throw it away. I am not overly keen on buying more plants to have them end up in the same condition. Before the house move the plants were growing fantastic and I was using macro / micro ferts together with the aquarium soil and I did not have an algae problem

I googled 'what nutrients does Tropica Aquarium Soil contain' and got these 2 opposing results so I don't know what to believe

*Specialised Nutrition*

Contains nitrogen and phosphor for fast-growing and demanding plants.
Also contains iron, magnesium and vital micro nutrients.
Suitable for aquariums with many and fast-growing plants.

Tropica Specialised fertiliser - liquid fertiliser for planted tanks
https://tropica.com › liquid-fertilisers › specialised-nutrition

Does Tropica soil contain iron?

*Contains iron*, manganese and vital micro nutrients. Does not contain nitrogen and phosphor. Suitable for aquariums with few or slow-growing plants and many fish.

and  apparently depending on the amount/type of soil used, water change schedules and growth cycles, aquasoils start depleting their nutrient stores significantly after *6 to 10 months*






​​


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## FrankR (23 Aug 2022)

kellyboy47 said:


> I googled 'what nutrients does Tropica Aquarium Soil contain' and got these 2 opposing results so I don't know what to believe
> 
> *Specialised Nutrition*
> 
> ...


That info's about their fertiliser, not their soil. 
Here's an analysis of aquarium substrates.


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## kellyboy47 (24 Aug 2022)

Sorry my mistake. I've had the tropica soil in place for well over a year so do you think the nutrients it held would be getting depleted by now. I assumed (probably again my mistake) that whatever the substrate I should be adding macro / micro ferts anyway but I'm open to suggestions


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## FrankR (24 Aug 2022)

Their soil 
	

	




						Tropica Aquarium Soil - Longevity?
					

During my research I have seen conflicting reports on whether or not Tropica Aquarium Soil will break down over time.  The reason I'm trying to find out is I'm thinking of using it in my planned planted tank but I'm not your usual aquascaper.  I want to get the aquarium setup and scaped and then...



					www.ukaps.org
				



Their substrate 
	

	




						Tropica Plant Growth Substrate Lifespan
					

Typical aqua soil has a high CEC which gets used up (particularly with my hard water) but what about Tropica Plant Growth substrate?  Does this have a lifespan or will it continue to absorb nutrients from water forever?



					www.ukaps.org


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## dw1305 (24 Aug 2022)

Hi all,


kellyboy47 said:


> I've had the tropica soil in place for well over a year so do you think the nutrients it held would be getting depleted by now. I assumed (probably again my mistake) that whatever the substrate I should be adding macro / micro ferts anyway but I'm open to suggestions


Yes, you will eventually need to add some nutrients.  I'm using <"Solufeed 2 : 1 : 4">, but <"TNC Complete"> etc would also do as a fertiliser.

Plants need all of the <"essential nutrients"> for plant growth, <"just in differing amounts">, which is why we talk about <"macro"> (plants need a lot) and "micro" (plants need a little) nutrients.

Your Amazon Frogbit (_Limnobium laevigatum_) <"looks pretty healthy">, so I'm going to say that you don't have any deficiency symptoms at present. It isn't rooted in the substrate (so itis getting the nutrients it needs from the water column) and it has aerial leaves so CO2 level isn't an issue either.

When it looks less healthy? Just add some fertiliser.





cheers Darrel


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## kellyboy47 (24 Aug 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Yes, you will eventually need to add some nutrients. I'm using <"Solufeed 2 : 1 : 4">, but <"TNC Complete"> etc would also do as a fertiliser


I use macro / micro ferts on alternate days and always have done so do you think I should stop adding ferts altogether. Also, should I siphon the substrate at all ?


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## dw1305 (24 Aug 2022)

Hi all,


kellyboy47 said:


> I use macro / micro ferts on alternate days and always have done so do you think I should stop adding ferts altogether


Personally I'd be add them less frequently and see what happens. Do you have a <"TDS (conductivity) meter">? Difference in conductivity between your tap water and your tank water will give some idea of how many nutrients you have.


kellyboy47 said:


> Also, should I siphon the substrate at all ?


I'd syphon up the Cyanobacteria and get rid of any floss or fine sponge in the filter if you can? (For the <"DOM reasons"> @jaypeecee gives).


kellyboy47 said:


> I also bought some hornwort but this got covered in the cyanobacteria so I had to throw it away.


If you can get some more, just rinse it under the tap to get rid cyanobacteria. _Ceratophyllum demersum_ has a silicified skeleton, so it is pretty physically robust.  If all the leaves come off when you wash it? It was already pretty unhappy.

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee (24 Aug 2022)

kellyboy47 said:


> I use macro / micro ferts on alternate days and always have done so do you think I should stop adding ferts altogether. Also, should I siphon the substrate at all ?


Hi @kellyboy47 

I am beginning to think there may be light at the end of the tunnel. And this information about _Tropica Aquarium Soil _is critically important:

Iron    47,200       mg/kg

Because this iron is in the soil, we want all of it to stay there in preparation for a few stem plants at a later stage. That's if you choose to grow plants in the substrate. I suggest that we need to greatly minimize the amount of iron in the water column. Cyanobacteria are _very_ dependent on iron. I could bore you with the scientific detail but that's for another day! Successive water changes will progressively reduce the iron concentration and help to keep organics in check. But, you may need to add a macro/micro mix to keep your Frogbit happy.

If this was my tank, I'd go the extra nine yards and measure iron concentration in the water column. It would provide instant feedback that your changes are starting to have an effect. But, the use of test kits divides opinions. If you were local to me, I'd run the tests for you.

Anyway, please keep us posted.

All the best.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (24 Aug 2022)

FrankR said:


> That info's about their fertiliser, not their soil.
> Here's an analysis of aquarium substrates.


Hi @FrankR 

What an excellent discovery - thank you!

If you look closely at the highlighted '2019 Comment', you may even spot the name of a current UKAPS member!

JPC


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## jaypeecee (24 Aug 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Yes, you will eventually need to add some nutrients. I'm using <"Solufeed 2 : 1 : 4">, but <"TNC Complete"> etc would also do as a fertiliser.


Hi @dw1305 & @kellyboy47

Note that _TNC Complete_ contains 0.08% iron. Just need to bear this in mind.

JPC


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## kellyboy47 (24 Aug 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @dw1305 & @kellyboy47
> 
> Note that _TNC Complete_ contains 0.08% iron. Just need to bear this in mind.
> 
> JPC


The chelated trace nutrients that I bought from Aquarium Plant Solutions before they closed state that Fe =8.2%....so I assume thats not good


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## dw1305 (24 Aug 2022)

Hi all, 


jaypeecee said:


> Note that _TNC Complete_ contains 0.08% iron. Just need to bear this in mind.





kellyboy47 said:


> The chelated trace nutrients that I bought from Aquarium Plant Solutions before they closed state that Fe =8.2%....so I assume thats not good


That is why I'm not keen on <"ready diluted"> fertilisers.

cheers Darrel


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## PARAGUAY (25 Aug 2022)

Adding a lot of fast growers is my thinking. Plus stems are usually least expensive


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## dw1305 (25 Aug 2022)

Hi all, 


jaypeecee said:


> Iron 47,200 mg/kg


Back to <"house bricks"> I'm afraid. 


> That is the one, it is why all these old tropical soils are red and quartz rich, everything that is potentially soluble has been washed away, just leaving insoluble quartz and iron (& aluminium) oxides & hydroxides. The iron can't be plant available, or it would have been leached away over the millennia. You can legitimately call "Flourite" "_iron rich_", but so is a <"red house brick"> and the iron is equally soluble in either case



cheers Darrel


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## sparkyweasel (25 Aug 2022)

kellyboy47 said:


> I also bought some hornwort but this got covered in the cyanobacteria so I had to throw it away. I am not overly keen on buying more plants to have them end up in the same condition.


You could buy* one more bunch of hornwort, put half in your tank and half in a tub or bucket outside. If you have to bin what's in the  tank after a week, you can replace it from the tub; what's in the tub will have doubled by then so you can have a constant supply.

*Unless any-one lives near @kellyboy47 and could give him a bunch?
Apparently it doesn't like being posted.


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## jaypeecee (25 Aug 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Back to <"house bricks"> I'm afraid.


Hi @dw1305 

It's too late in the day to pursue this. But, I'd like to discuss this further.  If I appear to have forgotten about this by tomorrow evening, please feel free to rattle my cage!

JPC


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## kellyboy47 (4 Sep 2022)

Hi just a quick update on state of play. I did as Tam suggested and turned off lights for full 5 days following water and I have not added any nutrients macro or micro for 7 days but have been adding liquid carbon daily.

I did a water change today and although there was not as much algae on the aquarium front glass the sponge filters in the Fluval have just as much black gunk on them. The Frogbit isnt quite as healthy as the the earlier photos so I assume this is because I'm not adding ferts, so should I resume adding ferts


dw1305 said:


> I'd syphon up the Cyanobacteria and get rid of any floss or fine sponge in the filter if you can?


@dw1305 why do you suggest removing floss from the filters ?

I have ordered 10 Ambulia to see if that helps but would anyone suggest that I turn off the lighting again for a 5 day period ?


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## dw1305 (4 Sep 2022)

Hi all,


kellyboy47 said:


> @dw1305 why do you suggest removing floss from the filters ?





kellyboy47 said:


> I did a water change today and although there was not as much algae on the aquarium front glass the sponge filters in the Fluval have just as much black gunk on them.


Because of your "black gunk" comment above. I think that <"some species of BGA (Cyanobacteria)"> are favoured by a higher level of organic compounds and because of this I don't want anything that will trap and retain these compounds in a <"(potentially) low oxygen environment">.

This means for me no mechanical filtration inside the filter body, where <"_out of sight" _can easily be "_out of mind_"> as well.

cheers Darrel


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## kellyboy47 (4 Sep 2022)

dw1305 said:


> This means for me no mechanical filtration inside the filter body, where <"_out of sight" _can easily be "_out of mind_"> as well.


Does this mean removing the carbon, nitrate and coarse / fine sponges from the Juwel filter and also the carbon media from the Fluval therefore running both filters without any media ?


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## dw1305 (5 Sep 2022)

Hi all, 


kellyboy47 said:


> the Juwel filter and also the carbon media from the Fluval therefore running both filters without any media


I just have a prefilter and <"a sponge(both coarse sponge)"> and some <"biological media in the filters">. You plants are going to do most of the nitrogen removal for you, both directly and also by providing <"a larger area"> where nitrification can happen in the substrate.


kellyboy47 said:


> Does this mean removing the carbon, nitrate and coarse / fine sponges from the Juwel filter


Why have you got a nitrate removal sponge?  You don't need it, and dependent on the species of cyanobacteria it may actually be <"helping their growth">.  

cheers Darrel


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## Hanuman (5 Sep 2022)

Sometimes one needs to use the big guns. I would use some antibiotic (if available) but prior to that I would really remove as much of that gunk as you can and also trim BGA infected plants. Usually, BGA is mechanically easy to remove , not like some algae, so you may have luck by simply cleaning the leaves. Also you didn't show a full picture of your tank so it's hard to assess how much planting is going on and this could be a factor in what you are experiencing.

Before adding anything in the tank though, I would let the can recover for some time. You just did a 5 days black out, which is usually something I do not recommend because plants suffer in the process and the black out can in fact jump start a new outbreak of BGA due to poor plant health.

I'm also not sure what your temperatures are but in my experience that's a big kickstarter for BGA. If you can maintain the tank below 27C that would be beneficial.


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## kellyboy47 (5 Sep 2022)

Hanuman said:


> Also you didn't show a full picture of your tank so it's hard to assess how much planting is going on and this could be a factor in what you are experiencing.
> 
> Before adding anything in the tank though, I would let the can recover for some time. You just did a 5 days black out, which is usually something I do not recommend because plants suffer in the process and the black out can in fact jump start a new outbreak of BGA due to poor plant health.


I have NOT vacumned the substrate as yet but I will do if recommended
I have just added 10 stems of Ambulia because a member suggested I should add some fast growing stem plants although they will probably be covered in this algae in a couple of days
I tried a 5 day blackout because it was recommended to me by another member. Sorry about the reflections in the photos. I will take some more this evening
Temperature of tank is 25.8 degrees
Antibiotic ? (what do you suggest) and I would only use is not harmful to the livestock


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## kellyboy47 (5 Sep 2022)

dw1305 said:


> That is why I'm not keen on <"ready diluted"> fertilisers


So what do you suggest. Ive heard differing stories about TNC Complete & that it can be harmful to the fish ?

I have a Nitrate sponge in the Juwel filter box because that is what Juwel recommend and I have always used themm in my setup


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## kellyboy47 (5 Sep 2022)

sparkyweasel said:


> You could buy* one more bunch of hornwort, put half in your tank and half in a tub or bucket outside. If you have to bin what's in the  tank after a week, you can replace it from the tub; what's in the tub will have doubled by then so you can have a constant supply.
> 
> *Unless any-one lives near @kellyboy47 and could give him a bunch?
> Apparently it doesn't like being posted.


Thanks might just get some more 👍


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## kellyboy47 (5 Sep 2022)

dw1305 said:


> I just have a prefilter and <"a sponge(both coarse sponge)"> and some <"biological media in the filters">. You plants are going to do most of the nitrogen removal for you, both directly and also by providing <"a larger area"> where nitrification can happen in the substrate


At risk of me sounding thick are you recommending then that I dispense of the nitrate, carbon and rpre-filter floss then 🤔...What I have always found  to be confusing is that Juwel recommend using a nitrate sponge but on the other hand I normally add nitrates to the tank with the ferts I use  so how does this help ?


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## dw1305 (5 Sep 2022)

Hi all,


kellyboy47 said:


> I have a Nitrate sponge in the Juwel filter box because that is what Juwel recommend..............What I have always found to be confusing is that Juwel recommend using a nitrate sponge but on the other hand I normally add nitrates to the tank with the ferts I use so how does this help ?


Exactly that, you are giving with one hand and taking away with the other.

<"Plants need a lot of fixed nitrogen"> and they are very efficient at converting it into plant material, as soon as you have plants you don't need any other method of removing  nitrate (NO3), (other than water changes, <"I still like to change some water">). 

When you scoop out a handfull of Frogbit, you've permanently exported that fixed nitrogen.

<"Call me a sceptic">, but I think Juwel recommending a nitrate sponge is just a way of getting some repeat business out of you.


kellyboy47 said:


> So what do you suggest


TNC complete is fine. In terms of fertiliser I'm using Solufeed 2 : 1 : 4 (<"from earlier in the thread">)  and the <"Duckweed Index">.  Just add enough fertiliser to <"keep your Frogbit"> looking like it did in this photo.





Solufeed isn't an aquarium fertiliser, and contains urea (CO(NH2)2), but at £13 a kilo it is a cheapish option.

cheers Darrel


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## kellyboy47 (5 Sep 2022)

dw1305 said:


> TNC complete is fine. In terms of fertiliser I'm using Solufeed 2 : 1 : 4 (<"from earlier in the thread">) and the Duckweed Index.
> 
> It isn't an aquarium fertiliser, and contains urea (CO(NH2)2), but at £13 a kilo it is a cheapish option


Thanks for your advice Darrel. I might go for the TNC Complete then as the Solufeed looks a bit complicated.

I will start reintroducing the macro / micro ferts now then


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## dw1305 (5 Sep 2022)

Hi all, 


kellyboy47 said:


> I might go for the TNC Complete then as the Solufeed looks a bit complicated.


If you did want to use the Solufeed? I can <"do the sums"> for how much you need to add, based upon your tank volume <"and a target ppm for one of the nutrients"> it contains.

cheers Darrel


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## kellyboy47 (5 Sep 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> If you did want to use the Solufeed? I can <"do the sums"> for how much you need to add, based upon your tank volume <"and a target ppm for one of the nutrients"> it contains.
> 
> cheers Darrel


My tank volume is 180l and I have always added 35ml of APF Macro nutrients / Micro Nutrients on alternate days


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## Geoffrey Rea (5 Sep 2022)

*Hi* @kellyboy47 *got your PM. Apologies, tried condensing the two posts whilst on the move this morning and ended up erasing both. Repost below:*

Do you have a full tank shot @kellyboy47 as it didn’t appear in the attachments.



kellyboy47 said:


> 10. Inhabitants. 3 x Blue Acara (Large) 2 x Bolivian Ram, 1 x Rainbowfish, 5 x Corydoras



Any shrimps? Any snails? If not you can treat for cyano effectively, but the stronger treatment most use will be lethal to invertebrates. You can use phytoncide (invertebrate friendly) after manually removing every speck of cyano you can. Harder work, but also effective.



kellyboy47 said:


> And this is my current lighting period
> Dawn 9-10 White 0% Blue 40%
> Sunrise 11-1 White 85% Blue 85%
> Sunset 5-8 White 5% Blue 40%
> Dusk 9-10.30 White 0% Blue 0%



13.5 hours of light requires a healthy setup under those lights. Right now it will be exacerbating the cyano problem, as it is obviously photosynthetic. Longer blackouts are usually ineffective as you weaken plants in that time. If that system is already in detriment, the additional decay from failing plant matter will add to the problem. You switch lights back on, Cyanobacteria divide faster than plants recover. Plus they have everything they need.

As @tam has posted:



tam said:


> There is no point swapping out substrate, it only needs invisible traces to come back. If you search the forum for cyano there are loads of posts on getting rid. It's good to work out why - sometimes it's low flow areas and excess mulm so a good clean and redirecting flow an help. Once it's there though, fixing the initial problem doesn't necessary get rid of it, it tends to hang on.



You want it on the back foot. That is achieved through a well oxygenated system. It exists as there’s an oxygen deficit in your tank. It’s why planting heavy at startup negates a lot of problems, more plants, more photosynthesis, more oxygen. Even your move was a significant event for your tank biome.

Cyano can fix nitrogen and does, to give it credit, produce the oxygen your system needs in absence of photosynthesis from plants. But only to its own benefit. It smothers everything else, coating surfaces so nothing else gets access. It’s a survivor, the survivor in fact, adapting the environment to its needs.

To fight this, within the filter that means maximum flow to your media as @dw1305 has pointed out. This is to provide oxygenated water to your filter media. Anything that impedes that delivery of oxygenated water is again, exacerbating the problem. Less oxygenated water to your nitrifying bacteria, higher ammonia as it isn’t being processed into nitrate. More ammonia and unhealthy plants unable to uptake that ammonia, more issues.

You’re getting it anywhere there’s a meagre amount of light available. It needs removing until the only place it can exist is in the darkest recesses of the substrate, in small colonies where it can be directly dealt with.

There’s already a lot to digest there so will break it down into three simple categories:


Maximum manual removal of cyanobacteria
Restoring desired healthy plant matter
Restoring the system to a well oxygenated state

Practical advice on how to achieve the above in order:

*- Maximum manual removal of cyanobacteria *

Manual removal by siphon. If using tap water and a mixer tap, you can fill and drain the tank simultaneously by adding periodic doses of dechlorinator. Match the drain rate to the fill rate. This means you can evict the stuff wholesale as you can vacuum up all traces.

*- Restoring desired healthy plant matter*

Plant up the tank with as much plant mass as you can. Ensure good surface agitation and stick to a fixed lighting schedule and lighting intensity. You want your plants adapted to the rhythm of the day. No curve balls. The consistency sets the plants up.

*- Restoring the system to a well oxygenated state *

Can’t stress this one enough… If you’re running a low tech tank, surface agitation is your friend. It ensures a reliable, continual and consistent supply of dissolved gases. More rot - provides the required oxygen. Fish dies - provides the required oxygen to break it down. Co2 - keeps it available for plant tissues to uptake. If it’s not needed - maintains equilibrium anyway.

Your substrate age is partly a red herring. You can just dose comprehensively through the water column. The main thing you want is healthy plant root respiration taking place in the substrate, it will make it uncomfortable for the cyano to dominate in the substrate.

If you end up with cyano patches surviving against the glass where there’s light, you can inject treatments into the substrate along the glass to give it a final shove.


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## dw1305 (6 Sep 2022)

Hi all, 


Geoffrey Rea said:


> Can’t stress this one enough… If you’re running a low tech tank, surface agitation is your friend. It ensures a reliable, continual and consistent supply of dissolved gases. More rot - provides the required oxygen. Fish dies - provides the required oxygen to break it down. Co2 - keeps it available for plant tissues to uptake. If it’s not needed - maintains equilibrium anyway.


That one, <"dissolved oxygen"> is always your friend. 


kellyboy47 said:


> My tank volume is 180l


<"Perfect">. 


dw1305 said:


> I should probably put in the calculation for that.
> 
> The tank is a nominal *70* litres and
> I want *10 ppm N*
> ...


I'll use nitrate (NO3-) again as my target nutrient, but I'll go for 10 ppm NO3-, rather than 10 ppm  N (~44 ppm NO3-). So the only differences are tank volume and nutrient dosing level. I still assume that all the nitrogen is as NO3.

The tank is a nominal *180* litres and
I want *10 ppm NO3*
Solufeed 2 : 1 : 4 is *15% nitrogen* (N).
There are 1000 mg in a gram, so 1 gram of Solufeed contains *0.15g or 150 mg N, "mg / L" and "ppm" are equivalents.*
150 / 180 = *0.83 ppm N in 180 litres. *To convert from N to NO3 we multiply by 4.43.
*0.83 x 4.43 = 3.69, *so 1 gram of Solufeed 2 : 1 : 4 supplies 3.69 ppm NO3
3.69 * 2.71 = 10 ppm 
*You need to add 2.7g of Solufeed 2 : 1 : 4 to 180 litres to give 10 ppm NO3. *
cheers Darrel


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## kellyboy47 (6 Sep 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> That one, <"dissolved oxygen"> is always your friend.
> 
> ...


Hi Darrel

Are we talking about this one and is this both Macro / Micro combined. Is this a daily dose that youve very kindly  calculated ?


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## kellyboy47 (6 Sep 2022)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> 13.5 hours of light requires a healthy setup under those lights. Right now it will be exacerbating the cyano problem, as it is obviously photosynthetic. Longer blackouts are usually ineffective as you weaken plants in that time. If that system is already in detriment, the additional decay from failing plant matter will add to the problem. You switch lights back on, Cyanobacteria divide faster than plants recover. Plus they have everything they need


Hi Geoffrey....Is this too much lighting then and what would you suggest changing with my current lighting period  to ?

Also, if I was to clean the substrate are we talking just running the siphon over the top of the substrate or actually into the substrate ?

Have attached some photos of full tank etc as requested


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## dw1305 (6 Sep 2022)

Hi all,


kellyboy47 said:


> Are we talking about this one and is this both Macro / Micro combined.


<"Yes and yes">, composition is in the image below.


kellyboy47 said:


> Is this a daily dose that youve very kindly calculated ?


I might start with that twice a week and then just see how <"your Frogbit looks">. If it looks healthy, and you are happy with its growth, you can leave it alone or you can try going to once a week. If it looks a bit pale, try three times a week. 

I always just use plant health and growth rate as an indication of when to add fertiliser <"and conductivity"> as an indication of whether I'm changing enough water.

I should also have said that you can work out how much of the other nutrients, that your dose of  10ppm NO3 from Solufeed 2 : 1 : 4 will supply, by using their difference in quantity (from nitrogen) in the fertiliser mix.




I'll just do phosphorus (P) and potassium (K), but all the other nutrients can be worked out in the same way. Because this is an agricultural fertiliser phosphorus and potassium content <"are quoted as their oxides">, so we need to use the (bracketed) numbers for each element.

We are supplying *10 ppm NO3*, which is *2.25 ppm N* and *N is 15%* of our fertiliser mix.

For phosphorus we need to divide 3  (% P in our mix) by 15 (% N) = 0.2 and then multiply 0.2 by 2.25 = *0.45 ppm P*
For potassium we need to divide 26.5 / 15 = 1.77 and then multiply 1.77 by 2.25 = *4 ppm K*
cheers Darrel


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## dw1305 (6 Sep 2022)

Hi all,
Last one, <"as times are tough">, just a quick working of cost, based upon the figures above (adding 20 ppm NO3 a week)  and the cost of the fertiliser (I'll go with the £13 I paid earlier in the year for a kilo (1000 g) of fertiliser).

@kellyboy47 would need to add 5.4g of fertiliser a week (20 ppm NO3 as 2 * 10 ppm doses). I'll round that up to 6g to take into account spillage etc.

So 1000 / 6 = 167, so that is enough fertiliser for 167 weeks (or 3.2) years <"at a cost of ~8p a week">.

£13 / 167  = 7.8 p.

cheers Darrel


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## Geoffrey Rea (7 Sep 2022)

kellyboy47 said:


> Hi Geoffrey....Is this too much lighting then and what would you suggest changing with my current lighting period  to ?



Well the Jewel HeliaLux 900 light is rated at 140lm/watt and is a 40 watt fixture, so rated at 5600 lumens at 100%. This doesn’t quite work with LED but it’s the figures the manufacturer states.

You stated your lighting schedule as:



kellyboy47 said:


> And this is my current lighting period
> Dawn 9-10 White 0% Blue 40%
> Sunrise 11-1 White 85% Blue 85%
> Sunset 5-8 White 5% Blue 40%
> Dusk 9-10.30 White 0% Blue 0%



Assuming you enjoy the blue in the mornings and evenings for a dawn/dusk effect. Also assuming the 13.5 hour day total is to roughly replicate daylight period in equatorial regions.

Sunrise and sunset at the equator is fast, sun goes straight up, sun goes straight down. Makes long ramp up/down periods artificial. Which is fine, can understand it offers relaxing viewing. Also doesn’t startle the fish.

Your question, ‘Is this too much lighting?’ The best answer I can offer is if you want to run this day length and schedule, you need to consider what will use that amount of light. It’s energy… and it’s available to anything that is photosynthetic for 13.5 hours per day at varied intensity.

If the plants aren’t there to use it, something else will.  Dense planting shades out areas of the tank, limiting surfaces being bathed with light.

Also, you’re running at 85% intensity (4760 lumens) at peak and have lower light loving plants e.g. Cryptocoryne. Would need PAR data on the light unit to understand what is reaching the plants. But expecting, with a decent level of confidence, that this intensity setting is too high for your current setup.



kellyboy47 said:


> Also, if I was to clean the substrate are we talking just running the siphon over the top of the substrate or actually into the substrate ?



Folks have different preferences to this. Personally just siphon over top of the substrate to lift up any particles on the surface. Disturbing your substrate (aquarium soil) can be very counterproductive.


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## _Maq_ (7 Sep 2022)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> It’s energy… and it’s available to anything that is photosynthetic for 13.5 hours per day at varied intensity.


Don't you think that 13.5 hours is way too much? I've observed plants 'wake up' with the first daylight. Let's say at 6 am. From then on the light period should be counted, and many plants seem to 'close their leaves' roughly 10 hours later. To me, 13.5 hours of lighting seems too much, and algae may benefit from that.


Geoffrey Rea said:


> Disturbing your substrate (aquarium soil) can be very counterproductive.


I very much agree.


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## palcente (10 Sep 2022)

How big water changes you do and how often? If you use pre built fert and cannot dose N P K separately, you will see acummulation. From experience phosphate accumulation triggers cyano for me, heavily accelerated by warm temperatures.  There's contention around this (redfield ratio), but I've tried sticking to it and it works for me.


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## Myrtle (23 Nov 2022)

Hi, I'm looking to replace my over the counter ferts with solufeed but maths is not my strong point (combined with a large dose of brain fog) so I'm not sure I've worked out the amount needed for my wee 17 litre tank correctly. I've arrived at 0.25g, I assume bi-weekly but would really appreciate verification!


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