# Does this all sound reasonable?  Any equipment imbalances?



## paul.in.kendal (19 May 2009)

After Georgeâ€™s excellent presentation at TGM at the weekend, my missus caught me feverishly doing planting and hardscape diagrams last night, and said â€œThe sooner you get this tank the betterâ€! 

So I think Iâ€™ve finally run out of excuses for delaying buying my very first aquarium and hardware.  Hereâ€™s the suggested spec:

Tank: 100x45x55tall (cms) Aquariums Ltd all opti-white, rimless, braceless, plus cabinet
Lighting: Arcadia OT2 - T5 Luminaire 4 x 39W 40", 2x Grasslin timers 
Filtration/heating: 1x Eheim 2028 Professional II, 1x Eheim 2128 Professional II Thermo (both with media)
Inlets/Outlets: Cal Aqua lily pipes x2
Co2: Aqua Medic Pressure Regulator, Reactor 1000, bubble counter (with integrated non-return valve) and M-Ventil Standard solenoid, 2kg bottle, Cal Aqua double drop checker (just for fun, and because Iâ€™m colour blind), Grasslin Timer

Plus nets, water-change kit, TGM scissors and tweezers, a paint brush(!) and so on.

Fertilizing hardware: Start with TPN+, then change to auto-dosing using an Aqua Medic SP3000 dosing pump at a later stage.

Plus an Ebac 6200 room dehumidifier!

Does this all sound reasonable?  Any equipment imbalances or alternative suggestions?


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## Superman (19 May 2009)

Looks good to me, I would consider using dry ferts from the off as it'll take a lot of TPN+ from the start and then it could cause you problems when you tailor your dry ferts moving from TPN+.

You didn't mention any substrate?


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## Steve Smith (19 May 2009)

Sounds like you're starting on the right footing Paul!  What about substrate?  One thing I might say is that a de-humidifier might cause issues.  I've read (but not experienced) that a de-humidifier and an open top tank can mean needing to top up more regularly, but as I say I can't confirm that this is necessarily say this is a big problem.

Sounds like a great setup!


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## ceg4048 (19 May 2009)

I would not spend money for a double dropchecker, that's for sure...  

Cheers,


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## paul.in.kendal (19 May 2009)

superman said:
			
		

> Looks good to me, I would consider using dry ferts from the off as it'll take a lot of TPN+ from the start and then it could cause you problems when you tailor your dry ferts moving from TPN+.


I was hoping to flatten out the steep learning curve by starting with TPN+, but I'll certainly look at dry ferts again, cheers. (Amazingly, I've not seen "Ferts" on any list of aquascaping abbreviations - you lot really do love the abbreviations, don't you?!)



			
				superman said:
			
		

> You didn't mention any substrate?





			
				SteveUK said:
			
		

> What about substrate?


ADA Aquasoil and Powersand, I guess.

Re. the dehumidifier, we have major condensation problems in the room already, so this is a must.  If it doesn't work, I'll retrofit a condensation cover, but I'd rather not have to.  Any idea where you might have read about the topping-up issue, Steve?



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> I would not spend money for a double dropchecker, that's for sure...


Why not? Just because it's not strictly necessary?  Or is it ugly, or what?  I suppose Â£15 saved not buying that would make a dent in the total cost - NOT!!  

Seriously, any advice or comment is much appreciated.  At the weekend at TGM someone suggested there might be reliability issues with the Eheim Thermo.  I could get a Hydor inline, but I'm trying to keep the set-up simple.  Do either of these have in-tank temperature probes?  Will the two Eheims give me plenty of flow?  I don't want to put a Koralia in afterwards.  Can I maximse flow by reducing media, seeing as I'll be overfiltered?  Sorry if any of this sounds daft - I'm  a complete newbie.


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## Tony Swinney (19 May 2009)

Hi Paul

Nice to meet you on Sunday !  Your setup is virtually identical to my new one - same tank, same lights.  I'll be running an eheim 2028 and a tetratec 1200 and PM lily pipes for now (cal aqua later   )

I'm hoping they will give me enough flow, but we'll see !  The 'hula-hoop' style media (siporax or similar) is meant to allow more flow that the 'ball' type that eheim supply   

I'll use a hydor inline 300w heater, as the eheim thermos need a probe in the tank.  If you go for the hydor make sure you tape the temperature dial in place as they move easily, and a couple of folks have unknowingly knocked the dial and cooked their tank.

Hope this helps a little.

Tony


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## paul.in.kendal (19 May 2009)

Tonser said:
			
		

> Hi Paul
> 
> Nice to meet you on Sunday !  Your setup is virtually identical to my new one - same tank, same lights.  I'll be running an eheim 2028 and a tetratec 1200 and PM lily pipes for now (cal aqua later   )
> 
> ...


No, Tony - it helps a lot!  But I'm trying to avoid the "we'll see" scenario - isn't there a way I (we?) can be confident our filters give us enough flow?


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## Tony Swinney (19 May 2009)

Hi Paul

Well, the 2028 and the 2128 both have a filter circulation rating of 750lph, giving a total of 1500lph.  As the general recommendation is 10x turnover, and the tank is 225l (assuming 50mm of substrate ) so you should be aiming for 2250lph.

That said, it also depends on the amount and position of hardscape / plants, and also the amount of equipment the water is pumping through, ie the hydor or the CO2 reactor.

Tony


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## Steve Smith (19 May 2009)

paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> If it doesn't work, I'll retrofit a condensation cover, but I'd rather not have to.  Any idea where you might have read about the topping-up issue, Steve?



I can't remember where I read it to be honest, but after a quick google search, it seems I might of been wrong about it!  Theres a brief thread at this random US fishkeeping forum (never been there before, just what came up in google...)

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f2 ... 96813.html



			
				paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> ceg4048 said:
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I think this has been covered by Clive here:

viewtopic.php?f=46&t=1809&p=18857



			
				paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> Can I maximse flow by reducing media, seeing as I'll be overfiltered?  Sorry if any of this sounds daft - I'm  a complete newbie.



Bio media is always a good thing   You could cut down on on mechanical filtration a little, as you have 2 filters perhaps.


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## paul.in.kendal (19 May 2009)

Tonser said:
			
		

> Hi Paul
> 
> Well, the 2028 and the 2128 both have a filter circulation rating of 750lph, giving a total of 1500lph.  As the general recommendation is 10x turnover, and the tank is 225l (assuming 50mm of substrate ) so you should be aiming for 2250lph.
> 
> That said, it also depends on the amount and position of hardscape / plants, and also the amount of equipment the water is pumping through, ie the hydor or the CO2 reactor.


So should I really be looking at even bigger filters?  I'm guessing I'll be trying for flow-impeding jungly scapes sooner or later, and I'm sure I've read elsewhere on this Forum that the optimum flow could usefully be even greater - much greater - than 10x.

Hi Steve,
I'll have to see about the dehumidifier.

Thanks for the pointer on Clive's opinion on double drop checkers.  I understand Clive's warning not to try to slavishly match to a reference colour - but I'd be using the reference as a guide to the colour I'm actually reading (as someone who's colour blind), not trying to match it.  I might be looking for a bit more yellow than the reference, or a bit more blue, but the reference would give me something to compare it to.  But it's not a big deal really!


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## ceg4048 (20 May 2009)

paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> ceg4048 said:
> 
> 
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No, as Steve indicated the reasons are more profound, although a Â£15 savings buys several pints at the local pub, so this is nothing to sneeze at either.   Double dropchecker fosters a sense of false security so that when problems occur one is less likely to reassess one's CO2 technique, which can be fatal. A more brutal assessment found on this thread=> New design of drop checker

Cheers,


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## paul.in.kendal (20 May 2009)

Thanks for that, Ceg.  The double drop checker has just dropped off my list, for either a cheesy JBL job or the Cal Aqua Oracle.

In that more 'brutal' thread, you refer to loss of flow via in-line reactors/diffusers - especially with the Aqua Medic 1000 on my list!  Is there a more free-flowing alternative, that doesn't go in the tank?

On Superman's suggestion, I've been reading your outstanding thread on dry ferts.  Like so many other readers, I found it enormously helpful and reassuringly clear - I'll certainly be looking at making up my own ferts from the outset.  

Yet again the quality and depth of advice available on UKAPS is fantastic - thanks hugely!


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## paul.in.kendal (20 May 2009)

Ooh, and another thing, Ceg.  In your dry ferts article , you state: 





> Always separate the CSM+B from the NPK because it has a tendency to react with the phosphate.


 - yet it's clear people are making all-in-one liquid feed for auto-dosing.  How do they get round the adverse reaction you refer to?  

Sorry for what will surely be a(nother) daft question.


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## LondonDragon (20 May 2009)

paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> Ooh, and another thing, Ceg.  In your dry ferts article , you state:
> 
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> 
> ...



By mixing with the solution E300 Ascorbic Acid and E202 Potassium Sorbate, have a look here: http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/allinone.htm


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## paul.in.kendal (20 May 2009)

Thanks LD - with that I reckon I've got the info I need to get stuck straight in to DIY-dosing.  Once again the UKAPS community comes up trumps!


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## Steve Smith (20 May 2009)

Great news Paul!  Looking forwards to the journal now 

Was great to chat on Sunday btw!


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## paul.in.kendal (20 May 2009)

You may be looking forward to the Journal, Steve - but it scares me rigid!  I could seriously screw up here  

Looking at various bits of 'CliveAdvice', I'm wondering if I should be looking at a couple of absolute monster filters - say two 2080's.  That'd clear the 10x hurdle no problem, and I'm absolutely determined to give myself the best chance of minimising algae problems, while avoiding using what Clive calls rocket-propelled grenade launchers (Koralias etc.)  

But what's this about 2080's having 'triple hose connection'? Do I have to have two inlets for each filter?  And if I were to go for monster flow, can I put that through lily pipes without blasting fish and plants everywhere?  

Then if I go for two spraybars instead (one from each filter), is it OK that one would be delivering CO2 and the other heated water - would there be adequate in-tank mixing?  So many questions!


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## dsandson (20 May 2009)

paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> Then if I go for two spraybars instead (one from each filter), is it OK that one would be delivering CO2 and the other heated water - would there be adequate in-tank mixing? So many questions!



Dont want to confuse you, but here's another suggestion for the co2... a cheap chinese inline diffusor, here http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:VRI&item=110392438841. It seems they're quite effective. You might be able to fit one to each filter with a y-connector, and use only one reg. Apparently they work best on the filter outflows.

Or if you want a reactor... I havent seen any that are good but dont reduce flow, except for Ed Seeleys DIY design, if you were willing to make one.

Hope that helps. You're doing you research well, I'm sure that forthcoming journal of yours will be brilliant!


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## ceg4048 (20 May 2009)

paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> Thanks for that, Ceg.  The double drop checker has just dropped off my list, for either a cheesy JBL job or the Cal Aqua Oracle.


I vote for the cheesy JBL jobbie. Your eye muscles will thank you...



			
				paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> In that more 'brutal' thread, you refer to loss of flow via in-line reactors/diffusers - especially with the Aqua Medic 1000 on my list!  Is there a more free-flowing alternative, that doesn't go in the tank?


Yes! As the Cal Aqua rep indicated (after graciously enduring my verbal abuse) the 17mm external diffuser solves that problem. It's still irritatingly difficult to clean but is a bit sturdier thanks to thicker glass and is available for a mere (gulp!) Â£79.99...I use two of these on a tank twice your size and works the charm. Err...I guess nixing the double checker and buying the cheesy JBL jobbie might make the price easier to swallow.. :?: In general, in order to overcome the weakness of the flow restrictions you could just get a bigger filter if you wanted to use the AM1000, or, as suggested, try Ed Seely's DIY reactor.



			
				paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> On Superman's suggestion, I've been reading your outstanding thread on dry ferts.  Like so many other readers, I found it enormously helpful and reassuringly clear - I'll certainly be looking at making up my own ferts from the outset.
> 
> Yet again the quality and depth of advice available on UKAPS is fantastic - thanks hugely!


Most importantly, by your taking the red pill, we were able to disrupt your input/output signal which facilitated your disengagement from The Matrix. Welcome to the desert of The Real.... 8) 

Cheers,


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## ceg4048 (20 May 2009)

paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> Looking at various bits of 'CliveAdvice', I'm wondering if I should be looking at a couple of absolute monster filters - say two 2080's.  That'd clear the 10x hurdle no problem, and I'm absolutely determined to give myself the best chance of minimising algae problems, while avoiding using what Clive calls rocket-propelled grenade launchers (Koralias etc.)


Yeah, I always advocate monster filters, whose return on investment becomes more apparent as tank size increases. It's as much a practical decision as well as an aesthetic one because I can dictate and control the flow more precisely with the spraybars.



			
				paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> But what's this about 2080's having 'triple hose connection'? Do I have to have two inlets for each filter?  And if I were to go for monster flow, can I put that through lily pipes without blasting fish and plants everywhere?


Yes, regrettably you do need two inlets per filter so this often means drilling more holes in your canopy. Difficult to predict lily pipe behavior. Many people opt for these, but I'm fundamentally against them in large tanks. I'll leave it at that to avoid the inevitable Lily Pipe v. Spraybar flame war.



			
				paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> Then if I go for two spraybars instead (one from each filter), is it OK that one would be delivering CO2 and the other heated water - would there be adequate in-tank mixing?  So many questions!


Well, there are a few ways to skin that cat. Theoretically, the best way would be to split the CO2 so that it enter both sets of bars. This adds massive complication because that means either having two sets of regulators, bottles, diffusers, bubble counters,  or, using a single regulator plus a CO2 splitter and two diffusers. The next best thing would be to mount the two sets of bars stacked at the center of the tanks back wall. Each set of bars can be elongated to give better longitudinal coverage and to lower the exit velocity at the holes, which cuts down on turbulence. Third best is to have a single diffuser and to mount both sets of bars as you have described. In a large tank you always worry about how long it takes to evenly saturate CO2 across the tank so this is a concern, however this is the least complicated solution and it might simply mean that you need to turn on the gas earlier prior to the photoperiod, say, two hours prior, to accomplish this goal. I'd probably start with that technique first and push it's limits. If it's unsatisfactory then try either of the other two methods.

Cheers,


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## paul.in.kendal (22 May 2009)

Thanks for that, guys.

It looks like it needs to be either an expensive Cal Aqua inline diffuser or an Ed Seeley special, with twin spraybars stacked centrally in the tank.  Then if the arty-farty side of my brain wins the internal argument with the techie side, I can experiment with lily pipes at a later stage.

SO nice to know others have thought these issues through in such detail, and come up with such clever solutions!  

I'll be back with more questions shortly, doubtless...


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## paul.in.kendal (24 May 2009)

OK, the order's in, deposit paid...


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## Tony Swinney (24 May 2009)

paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> OK, the order's in, deposit paid...



Excellent Paul     And now the wait begins....

Have you seen the Vortech powerheads ?  They arent cheap at Â£250+ , but give masses of flow, and no cables going in to the tank - they work by magnetics through the tank so all you need to do is hide the head behind something:

http://www.charterhouse-aquatics.co...40w-3000-propeller-pump-powerhead-p-2291.html

However, they only direct flow perpendicularly to the tank wall they're sitting on which may be a little limiting.

Tony


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## nry (24 May 2009)

dsandson said:
			
		

> paul.in.kendal said:
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I am impressed with the eBay diffuser in that link myself, it hasn't affected flow rate that I can see, and I get a lovely fine mist spread right around the aquarium from mine.  Cannot fault it for Â£5!


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## paul.in.kendal (24 May 2009)

Thanks for the suggestions, chaps, but both those are out for now - I've gone for the big Eheims (a 2080 and a 2180), so the Vortech (which seems a lot for no extra filtration) should be unnecessary, and I'm sticking with the 1000 Reactor. 

As you say, the wait begins...


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## paul.in.kendal (28 Jul 2009)

...and comes to an end!    

My 100x45x55 Optiwhite and cabinet are delivered this weekend  

Funny, now it's finally happening, I'm getting all nervous


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## andyh (28 Jul 2009)

paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> After Georgeâ€™s excellent presentation at TGM at the weekend, my missus caught me feverishly doing planting and hardscape diagrams last night, and said â€œThe sooner you get this tank the betterâ€!
> 
> So I think Iâ€™ve finally run out of excuses for delaying buying my very first aquarium and hardware.  Hereâ€™s the suggested spec:
> 
> ...




With ref to the Dehumudifier make sure it has some sort of stat on it This is similar to a thermostat, a humidistat indicates the relative humidity and allows you to adjust it to the desired level. That way once its done its job it aint going to over do it!

Also dont be tempted to use the water in your tank, it will be toxic.


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## Tony Swinney (28 Jul 2009)

Hi Paul

I'm pleased its finally imminent - nice size you've gone for too      Hope it gets delivered and setup safely, and look forward to seeing the journal   

Tony


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## paul.in.kendal (28 Jul 2009)

andyh said:
			
		

> With ref to the Dehumudifier make sure it has some sort of stat on it This is similar to a thermostat, a humidistat indicates the relative humidity and allows you to adjust it to the desired level. That way once its done its job it aint going to over do it!
> 
> Also dont be tempted to use the water in your tank, it will be toxic.


Thanks for the advice, Andy.  Have you used a dehumidifier yourself in a room with an aquarium?  To be honest, I'm going to hold back from getting the dehumidifier until I'm absolutely sure I need it.


			
				Tonser said:
			
		

> I'm pleased its finally imminent - nice size you've gone for too   Hope it gets delivered and setup safely, and look forward to seeing the journal
> 
> Tony


After all your trials and tribulations, Tony, I'm almost expecting it to turn up damaged - that way there's no chance of disappointment  And as for the size, this will probably be the only similarity between our set-ups - apart perhaps from the fact they'll both be filled with water 8) Your creation is truly mind-blowing, and as for the photography... I'm just amazed at the huge leaps being made in this hobby month-by-month - I have to keep going back over journals to remind myself that other people are making big personal improvements, so if I get off to a rocky start it doesn't mean all is lost.

Next step is clearing space for the cabinet, and getting a camera tripod...


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## baron von bubba (28 Jul 2009)

hi,

i've kinda recently been through the whole "noob" set up thing!
i didn't quite cover all my bases in the way i think you have tho, i needed to upgrade and reconfigure a few times before hopefully getting nearer to the mark!

while we all love to see what the experts achieve, i find its generally more interesting to see how the less experienced ppl progress and grow! (altho in my case that does seem like a fairly slow progression!!   )

good luck with it all and i'm looking forward to the journal!


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## paul.in.kendal (28 Jul 2009)

baron von bubba said:
			
		

> hi,
> 
> i've kinda recently been through the whole "noob" set up thing!
> i didn't quite cover all my bases in the way i think you have tho, i needed to upgrade and reconfigure a few times before hopefully getting nearer to the mark!
> ...


 Thanks, Baron.  To be honest, it feels like I've seriously 'over-read' the subject, without (yet) putting any of it into practice.  I'm just hoping the mass of info I've semi-absorbed settles down and I start to see things more clearly as I progress.  The scariest bit is that, as I keep saying, I've never kept so much as a goldfish before - nothing  

It's incredibly reassuring that there's such a wealth of info and advice available via this Forum


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## baron von bubba (28 Jul 2009)

paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> To be honest, it feels like I've seriously 'over-read' the subject, without (yet) putting any of it into practice.  I'm just hoping the mass of info I've semi-absorbed settles down and I start to see things more clearly as I progress.  The scariest bit is that, as I keep saying, I've never kept so much as a goldfish before - nothing
> 
> It's incredibly reassuring that there's such a wealth of info and advice available via this Forum



an once of practice is worth a ton of theory as they say!
seems like you've certainly done a couple of tons of theory!!   

3 or so months in for me and i'm still reading and learning for hours everyday!!!

as you say tho, this forum is pure gold. any problems you don't foresee will be soon be overcome with the help of UKAPS!


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## George Farmer (28 Jul 2009)

Exciting times, Paul!

All the best it.  You've certainly done your research - more than I ever did, so I'm sure you'll be fine!

Of course, we're all on hand with any further advice you may need.  

Do you have a layout planned yet?  For me that's the best part, and with your landscaping background I'm expecting something pretty cool.  No pressure mate!


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## paul.in.kendal (28 Jul 2009)

George Farmer said:
			
		

> Exciting times, Paul!
> 
> All the best it.  You've certainly done your research - more than I ever did, so I'm sure you'll be fine!
> 
> ...


Ah, I dread the words "No pressure mate", cos I know EXACTLY what you mean  

I'd agree that with any sort of gardening, planning is the best bit, and yes, I've got a couple of layouts and planting plans in mind - both dependent on suitable hardscape, so we'll see what a visit to TGM comes up with.

So far the easiest bit has been coming up with aquascape names! I've now got enough names for several year's worth of scapes!


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## paul.in.kendal (1 Aug 2009)

Aargh! Waiting in this morning for the tank, pottering in the garden to pass the time.  Come in to check no-one's waiting in a van out front to find a note on the doormat - they'd been and gone   

Still, I was planning a trip to TGM tomorrow to pick up lots of other goodies, so I'll be picking the tank and cabinet up on my way down.  But what a bummer


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## paul.in.kendal (3 Aug 2009)

Woop! Woop!  I gottan aquarium! Can't post a picture, though.  I'm using a Picasa Web album, but the HTML for 'embed image' is several lines long.  I've tried pasting this, highlighting it and hitting 'Img', but it won't play ball.  Any ideas?


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## Tony Swinney (4 Aug 2009)

Hi Paul

Sorry I missed your last post about missing the delivery - what a pain !  Still at least you have it home safely now    If you want me to host your pic then send it to me via email (PM'd you my address), and I'll sort it out for you.

Cheers

Tony


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## George Farmer (4 Aug 2009)

paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> Woop! Woop!  I gottan aquarium! Can't post a picture, though.  I'm using a Picasa Web album, but the HTML for 'embed image' is several lines long.  I've tried pasting this, highlighting it and hitting 'Img', but it won't play ball.  Any ideas?


Exciting times!

To host images create a Photobucket account, or use Image Shack where you don't need an account.  

Simply copy and paste the URL into your posts.

Good luck!  I look forward to seeing this.


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## George Farmer (4 Aug 2009)

You can now follow this excellent topic in Paul's journal here -

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=7266


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