# Help!!!!...The more I read the more I become confused.



## Jake Senior

Please help!!!!!....I have 10 fantastic boesemani rainbow fish and I want to create a lush planted 300 litre tank for them (I wasn't planning on using CO2). Ideally ph neutral-7.5. I currently use Bristol tap water, not as hard a London water but is alkaline (TDS ranges 200/260). I was completely sold on a dirt tank idea...compost, (optional fluorite) and gravel to cap. However the more i read the more confused I get... which compost, which make/brand, will it affect the ph (will aquatic pond soil or compost reduce the ph, but will john innes no3 increase the ph...etc etc)!

So baring in mind my fish, what ph I'd like to have and the look I want to achieve (clear very slightly alkaline water with lush plants...swords, crypts, java fern, anubius, Ludwigia, val, lotus, star grass etc and a small amount of carefully chosen branches - bog or rosewood for the java fern, anubius and moss creating hight and interest), what substrate should I go for?????

Options (top to bottom):
1): gravel, flourite (red/dark mix), john Innes no 3 (Please someone suggest a safe brand)... but will this make the tank too alkaline.

2): gravel, flourite (red/dark mix), Westlands aquatic pond soil... but will this lower the ph too much

3): gravel, flourite and lose the compose all together....but will this provide enough nutrients?

All and any advice welcome. 

Thanks


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## roadmaster

Believe with weekly water change of say 50 %, the hardness (more important) ,and pH will not be an issue and would use  most generic soil.
Am not familiar with the brand's of soil you have available but think I would stay clear of those that say they will alter water chemistry and make thing's easier.
My 300 litre tank (avatar) is cat litter(plain unscented),Plain top soil,capped with Blasting media (Black Diamond).
I add a little Dry fertz once a week or two and trace mineral's twice a week.


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## Jake Senior

Thanks road master... yes of course hardness, I'm so wrapped up with soils. So you think go with plain top soil? Forgive my ignorance but is that something I can just buy? Also do you have the cat litter, then soil, then gravel?


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## foxfish

Your opening statement is quite a challenge especially without injecting C02!!
All plants require C02 to live & the more you give the faster this will happen, C02 is the governing factor in a planted aquarium.
So if you dont want to inject C02 then you should really study the low tech section of this forum but dont expect a lush looking tank overnight as growth will be slow.
Occasionally you will see a really lush looking low tech 'big' tank so it is possible... good luck.


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## roadmaster

Jake Senior said:


> Thanks road master... yes of course hardness, I'm so wrapped up with soils. So you think go with plain top soil? Forgive my ignorance but is that something I can just buy? Also do you have the cat litter, then soil, then gravel?


 

Cat litter,plain top soil (lawn garden store), and then capped with fine gravel or I used..Black Diamond blasting media.
Agree with foxfish,growth in low tech ,measured in week's,month's,but doable.


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## Jake Senior

Thanks fox fish...mmm maybe I should reconsider CO2. When I say lush I mean healthy looking plants, I want areas for the fish to swim also...

I'm all for the low tech tank Diana Walstad method and am happy to wait for results. I think where I seem to be getting confused is which soil substrate is best...miracle gro organic potting mix (although unavailable in the UK), john innes no 3 (which brand if so) or pond soil. Each soil seems to bring something different to the table... I suppose I want someone to say go and buy...Westlands john innes no 3, add xyz if you want and top with gravel (not sand), plant it up, do 50% water changes for a few weeks/ a month etc... I'm looking for the perfect recipe, which possibly doesn't exist. I appreciate any and all advise though.


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## foxfish

All righ .. pond soil mixed with a little peat.
Look out for post made by Troi, as he worked a theory around the decomposing soil producing C02 also look here A Chocolate Puddle - picture update | UK Aquatic Plant Society


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## Jake Senior

Brilliant, thanks guys, I feel I'm heading in the right direction. Would you say approx 10% peat? Also roadmaster I'm intrigued to know why cat litter underneath soil not the other way around....


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## Jake Senior

ok so after an evening of reading and research here's my plan...comments are welcome. I'll say right from the start that I'm not going down the 'dirt' route for budget reasons so I've indulged a bit...

From base of tank up: a thin layer of pure laterite, then a mix of black flourite with j Arthur bowers aquatic compost (Composts | William Sinclair | Gardening advice, tips, J Arthur Bower, New Horizons, plant foods, fertilisers, soil products) about £6-£7 for 20l - ratio approx third flourite to soil...depth 1.5/2 inches. Finally a 1.5/2 inch cap of black gravel (Pettex Roman jet black)... 

any thoughts?


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## sciencefiction

I can't be of much help as I haven't tried any soil based substrates but if you haven't come across it already, there's an article published by Aaron Talbot about using mineralized topsoil. There's detailed info online and other forums. It's an interesting read. I am in the process of setting up a tank like this myself as it's already been tried and given good results with no bad surprises.


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## roadmaster

Jake Senior said:


> Brilliant, thanks guys, I feel I'm heading in the right direction. Would you say approx 10% peat? Also roadmaster I'm intrigued to know why cat litter underneath soil not the other way around....


 
No paricular reason why I placed the cat litter on bottom ,then soil,then blasting media.
Appear's to be working.
Maybe I did it backward's,but it is as I described.(say's sheepishly)


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## BigTom

Doesn't seem to be much point using cat litter with soil to me... almost all soils should have a decent CEC on their own.

If you're not in a rush then I'd try a few different soils out and see which give you the water params you want. If you're less patient then I'd go with Westland's Aquatic Compost as it supposedly has a shorter period of ammonia leaching (I'm choosing to believe their marketing here!) - I have used it successfully in a tank stocked with fish from day 1, but also very heavily planted. PS - this will raise pH and hardness, not lower it.

If you want a soil with a minimal impact on water chemistry then go with this - original aquasoil | eBay

If you're going to use a John Innes mix then I'd personally use JI1 rather than 3. It's the same stuff but a bit leaner (same amount of limestone though). Info on JI recipes here (John Innes Seed compost would be perfect but noone seems to make it) - John Innes Composts explained

Whatever you buy, I'd recommend testing some in a tub or something with the same sort of cap and water ratio as you'll have in your tank to get a good idea of where your water params will end up.

If you find pH or hardness being pushed too high then you can always increase water changes or use RO water to bring them back in line.

I can't see the point in mineralising soil first unless you absolutely must put fish in on day 1. Might as well let the 'mineralisation' go on in the tank while plants are establishing and stock once ammonia leaching has ended.

I also don't see the need to add extra peat in most cases - most commercial soil mixes will be about 20-30% peat anyway form what I can make out.


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## BigTom

I've just checked the SeriouslyFish profile for _M. boesemanii_ and they seem to like pH 8 and hard, so ignore what I was saying about RO etc. Buy either Westland's or some other aquatic compost, or a JI 1-3 mix and you should be good to go.


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## foxfish

There you go mate you now have an experts advice.


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## BigTom

foxfish said:


> There you go mate you now have an experts advice.


 
Hah, I don't know about that. Just passing on what meagre knowledge Alastair and I have acquired with a bit of trial and error over the last couple of years.


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## Jake Senior

Thanks guys, it's really good to get advise from those that have tried 'dirt' tanks, I really appreciate it!!!!! I think I will go with Westlands or J Arthur Bower aquatic soil, they both are relatively inexpensive and I've read they have a reduced ammonia spike than 'normal' compost...meaning I'd be that further along cycling my tank from the start. 

I agree about the cat litter, however I have read that adding gravel below the soil aids water flow and thus inhibits anaerobic activity, hence sand being a bad move as far as capping soil is concerned , because it can compact reducing the water flow in and around the substate and thus limits oxygen needed for both bacteria and roots. This was one of the reasons for adding flourite (even though aquatic soil has grit), it will add texture and of course minerals (black flourite is high in 'ca' and 'al', plus the laterite is 'fe' and 'k' rich - with this mix I've covered all the other bases too!).

Right so decision made, thanks everyone.... one last question I'd love to get hold of 'trident java fern' does anyone have any???


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## Jake Senior

oh yes the ph of the aquatic soil is suppose to be 6.5-7 but as you say BigTom if the hardness increases boesmanii like it slightly hard. I'll do regular test beforehand, plus I wasn't planning on adding the fish straight away and when I do it will be a couple at a time, they're happy in there current tank...I'm just preparing for the growth as they mature


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## BigTom

Sounds like a plan. In my experience the water end pH is never anywhere near the soil pH stated on the packet. Expect it to rise, although I've not used those two you mention so it'll depend on what's in them. Haven't used fluorite myself but do add gravel/grit to reduce compaction. Each iteration of my soil tank has been capped with fine sand so I wouldn't be too scared of it - go with whatever looks nice or suits the inhabitants. 

Oh, and I've got quite a lot of trident that's due a trim!


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## BigTom

Oops sorry, just the bowers soil I haven't used. Westlands should be fine.


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## Tim Harrison

Some sage advice from foxfish and BigTom. This is one of mine that started life the Walstad Way, and then later it was dosed with minuscule amounts of TNC, but it would have been fine without. I tend to use a 1:1 ratio of aquatic pond soil and and moss peat and it works for me. IMO the key is really getting the lighting right and choosing the right plants from the outset and then growth rates can be pretty impressive. Check out the tutorial section for further info The Soil Substrate Planted Tank - A How to Guide | UK Aquatic Plant Society.


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## Jake Senior

Beautiful tank Troi! Is that some sort of Sag in the foreground? Yes everyone has been really kind giving advise...

Big Tom can I buy some 'trident' off you... I've seen it looking fab in dustinsfishtanks 220 tank.

Also after saying 'decision made'...was thinking last night maybe I should use 'Westlands or J Arthur Bower' aquatic soil as a base (both pretty much have the same stuff in them), mix in the flourite for added long term minerals and texture...but maybe I add a little John Innes 3 too? Say 50:25:25 ratios (aquatic soil: fluorite: John Innes).... What do you guys think? Overkill or worth a punt?


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## roadmaster

Biggest problem with soil tank's  in my view,,,are those who move plant's about a lot,, thereby making a right mess each time,, and those who frequently change scapes and perhap's do not give the soil based tank's proper time to become impressive in their own right.
My youngest tank is nearly two year's in the running..Slow grower's for the most part, that don't need a lot of light.
Could not find clear evidence as to CEC properties of various soil's, and chose to add cat litter (unscented,plain clay) so as not to leave anything to chance  and it was laying around .Ditto for plain top soil used for growing indoor plant's.
Tank in my avatar is result of my effort's at low tech and advise here,was/is invaluable(Troi,both Tom's, Clive) toward's the end  I have been able to achieve.


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## BigTom

Jake Senior said:


> Beautiful tank Troi! Is that some sort of Sag in the foreground? Yes everyone has been really kind giving advise...
> 
> Big Tom can I buy some 'trident' off you... I've seen it looking fab in dustinsfishtanks 220 tank.
> 
> Also after saying 'decision made'...was thinking last night maybe I should use 'Westlands or J Arthur Bower' aquatic soil as a base (both pretty much have the same stuff in them), mix in the flourite for added long term minerals and texture...but maybe I add a little John Innes 3 too? Say 50:25:25 ratios (aquatic soil: fluorite: John Innes).... What do you guys think? Overkill or worth a punt?


 
Yup I'll have a trim over the weekend and see how much I end up with, should be able to find a decent amount for you. Don't really see any need for adding JI3 to the aquatic compost, although I guess it can't hurt other than probably increasing the period of ammonia leaching a bit.

And I agree with roadmaster in that the rewards from this sort of approach really do come with patience.


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## Jake Senior

Thanks again guys, and brilliant news about trident BT. I agree roadmaster, I'd read 'dirt' tanks should be left and moving plants about causes a mess...therefore I'm going to 'try' and plant once...might be asking you guys for plant advice in the next few months


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## Tim Harrison

Jake Senior said:


> Beautiful tank Troi! Is that some sort of Sag in the foreground? Yes everyone has been really kind giving advise...


 
Hi its _Lilaeopsis_ sp, a good carpet plant for the low-energy tank.



> Also after saying 'decision made'...was thinking last night maybe I should use 'Westlands or J Arthur Bower' aquatic soil as a base (both pretty much have the same stuff in them), mix in the flourite for added long term minerals and texture...but maybe I add a little John Innes 3 too? Say 50:25:25 ratios (aquatic soil: fluorite: John Innes).... What do you guys think? Overkill or worth a punt?


 
Go for it, experimenting is all part of the fun.



Jake Senior said:


> Thanks again guys, and brilliant news about trident BT. I agree roadmaster, I'd read 'dirt' tanks should be left and moving plants about causes a mess...therefore I'm going to 'try' and plant once...might be asking you guys for plant advice in the next few months


 
Actually, that is not the case if you use a gravel tidy or soil retainer cut from a material such as this Greenhouse Shading 5m x .6m: Amazon.co.uk: Garden & Outdoors and place it between the soil and the gravel/sand cap it will prevent the soil from being disturbed...scape and re-scape at leisure without fear of a turbid tank. Like I said before it's all here for the taking...The Soil Substrate Planted Tank - A How to Guide | UK Aquatic Plant Society


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## Jake Senior

Thanks Troi, think I will go for it, as BT said might get more ammonia but I'm looking at the end game. Also what a fantastic idea using the greenhouse shading... presumably you plant in the gravel and the plant roots make their own way into the 'dirt'...probably need a good 1 and a half inches of gravel using this technique?


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## Tim Harrison

Yep they do through a phenomena called geotropism. As to depth, obviously that sort of depth will make life much easier when planting but I've planted in a couple of cm before it's just a little fiddlier and frustrating when things may not stay put first time. You will definitely need a good pair of tweezers.


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## roadmaster

Have used the Gravel tidy ,also nylon mesh.Root's grow through the mesh,gravel tidy,and when you want to maybe seperate a plant ,move plant's,the root's sometimes make the gravel tidy,mesh come up with em.(intertwined).
Tried cutting the root's with scissor's but had to cut too short for my taste to keep gravel tidy,mesh from coming up also.


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## Tim Harrison

Wow that sounds like some root development; testament to the effectiveness of soil substrates. I guess nothing is completely foolproof. I suppose it depends on what type of mesh used and the capping substrate and how thick and heavy the layer.

I've never experienced this myself using the greenhouse shading material recommended above (it's fairly rigid) capped with sand or gravel, but re-scaping is an exercise always best done with caution in order to minimize disturbance anyway.


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## Jake Senior

I must admit it had crossed my mind that the roots through the mesh would make it tricky to move them, however I think that's offset with keeping the soil in place. One question though, and forgive me because I'm not that au fait with many plant species.... but don't some have quite thick roots?


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## Jake Senior

... sorry my question was, will the mesh limit some plants?


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## roadmaster

Don't think it would limit plant's. Root's will draw from nutrient's however,wherever.(Water column also).
My tank;s do not have foam underneath, and whenever I remove canister from under the tank,, I can look up at bottom of the tank,through the glass,and see large root system's from sword's, and crypt's ,spreading over the glass.
Might were it me,,note approx size plant's can achieve and try not to place them where they will shade smaller plant's in front once the achieve full growth.
This way, you won't need to uproot,move plant's too much. Sound's obvious, but many like to move plant's about ,and is much easier to pull up dirt, than just leaving them alone to do what they do. (say's from own expierience).


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## Jake Senior

Sorry guys I've not logged on for a while... thanks again for all the advice... I'm going to incorporate all your tips I think. I've sourced the Westlands Aquatic compost (20litres £5.99) and Westlands John Innes no3 (13litres £2.50...bargain)


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