# Dry start: my 11gal nano (Title was: Hardscaping my 2nd try)



## jonny_ftm

Hi,

I'm really novice to any scaping and would like your feedback/ideas on this one:

43L, Aquatic Nature Cocoon 7, dry starting









Many thanks for your suggestions


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## samc

*Re: Advice my hardscape please*

if i was you i would use the wood as the centre-piece and use the rock around the wood.

take a look at some amano nature scapes as he nearly allways uses wood this way. he normally uses branches though


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## jonny_ftm

*Re: Advice my hardscape please*

Hi,

I see what you mean

I'll change the wood and use higher rocks I think.

Thank you again, I'll post back with a new try.


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## eoto

*Re: Advice my hardscape please*

IÂ´d use the Wood as Mainpart aswell.

And you say youre drystarting which is fine but i can see no Plants in there!?


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## Steve Smith

*Re: Advice my hardscape please*

You could bank up your substrate behind the stones, giving you a bit more of a sense of depth, and might look interesting


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## jonny_ftm

*Re: Advice my hardscape please*

Hi,

Thank you all for your explanations, I feel really disappointed in the aquascaping area.
I just got some new wood shaped in branches and looked at a hundred aquascape photos. I'll try in the 2-3 next days to rearrange the stones/wood and add some more substrate behind the rocks. That elevated substrate though, won't be planted before immersion phase as it won't be easy to keep it moist without flooding the front of the tank. I'll arrange the stones in a higher hill/mountain too. I'll post back with the photos.

As of the dry start, it's all filled with an hygrometer inside too. Plants are waiting since a week now in my 230L tank. I wanted to arrange the hardscape before planting to avoid the mess

Many thanks again for keeping an eye on this topic


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## jonny_ftm

*Re: Hardscaping: my second try*

Hi,

Here's my second try:









Or, that rock is too big and would be better removed or replaced by smaller?




Any suffestions/improvements? It should be planted tomorrow

Many thanks for all your enlightenings


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## jonny_ftm

*Re: Hardscaping: my second try*

Well, I was advises elesewhere and arranged it differently:

Different views:
















Any other suggestions please?

As of the plants, they will be:

Echino Tenellus, Crypto Parva, P Helferi, Crypto Wendtii Tropica, Anubia Nana and Windlov java moss
Some stems: R Wallichii and another stem plant to choose (some P. Stellatus or Cuba... maybe)

I know I ask much, but any advices on how to arrange them for the best effect?

Really I appreciate any help


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## samc

*Re: Hardscaping: my second try*

if i was you i would just remove the rock on the left and plant it as it is. 

i would cover the wood with moss which i think you were planning. and then planting should make it look good with the plants you have chosen


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## Steve Smith

*Re: Hardscaping: my second try*



			
				samc said:
			
		

> if i was you i would just remove the rock on the left and plant it as it is.



Yeah, I'd agree with Sam   I'd also just blend your rocks into your substrate a little, so they look a little less placed, and more like they've been there for thousands of years   Just push them into the substrate a little, and make sure it covers any edges on the bottom of the rocks.


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## jonny_ftm

*Re: Hardscaping: my second try*

Many thank you both for your suggestions, I really appreciate the help

I finally kept the big rock on the left, it looks nicer in reality than in the photo. But, I would maybe later change it with a much narrower and higher one, sort of a mountain. I also pushed them deep in the substrate as you suggested

Here's my plants topo, what do you think of it?









I still hesitate on C. Wendtii on the top right corner, any suggestions for another plant?


Many thanks again for all your help


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## Steve Smith

*Re: Hardscaping: my second try*

Wenditii might get a little big, but I'm not too sure to be honest.  Your area for R Wallichii might be a bit small too, but you'll know for definate when you plant it up 

I'd be tempted to cram a bit of java fern into the crack between those two rocks on the right as well.  Are you going for normal, or "narrow"?  Normal might be a bit big for your tank


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## jonny_ftm

*Re: Hardscaping: my second try*

Hi,

Thank you again for teh info,

I was going normal, since I have much in my 230L/60gal tank. I will look at the narrow, you're right for sure.

I just planted the tank this night and put a Crypt Parva in the crack between the rocks. Was fearing to put a java fern since it will cover all the rock once it grows. But using a narrow fern specie could be fine indeed. I'll look how it goes once plants grow.

What do you think if I switch the big rock on the left with a narrow one, but higher, like a mountain. I even could just turn the actual rock, front part going on top. Was also thinking at using a mountain like effect with a petrified wood instead of the rock on the left, but I don't know what it would give with the other grey 2 rocks   :?: 
And if I put "the mountain", where should I build it, in the front, back or same level as the wood lines?

Many thanks for helping me decide


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## Steve Smith

*Re: Hardscaping: my second try*

I'd stick with the same types of rocks.  It's hard to get two different types of rock to look right together, unless in a massive tank and you can do some fancy transition between the two.

Any chance of a full frontal of the tank?  It's better to get an idea for how things look that way   My personal thoughts are that you either don't need the rock on the left at all, or you use a smaller one, as it's quite dominant.

You might also be able to group it with the other two rocks on the right, having it towards the back, and comming out to the left.  This might give you a nice triangle composition, with a bit of open space to the left which you could plant with lower growing plants, or have your E. Tenellus at the back and something smaller in front.


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## Steve Smith

*Re: Hardscaping: my second try*



			
				SteveUK said:
			
		

> You might also be able to group it with the other two rocks on the right, having it towards the back, and comming out to the left.  This might give you a nice triangle composition, with a bit of open space to the left which you could plant with lower growing plants, or have your E. Tenellus at the back and something smaller in front.



Here's an example of what I mean.  This is one of George's scapes called "Blyxa Hills":





It's got a great triangle composition running right to left.  You could try to create something similar (with different plants, and with the wood too)


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## jonny_ftm

*Re: Hardscaping: my second try*

Hi,

Thank you very much for following this topic and helping me step by step in my first try in an aquascape. Hard for me this art  :?  The example you showed is very nice indeed, but I'd love a more proeminent rock somewhere

It will be hard to put it with the 2 other rocks without removing every thing and redoing the substare, it is very big/dominant, as you well noted in deed. I feel more and more you're right about getting rid of that big rock. I'd love add some rock somewhere though.

I'll take a front shot tonight when back, with the lights installed. It is now planted, dry, so it will give you a good global idea on how it is going. 

Thank you again very much, I'll post back tonight


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## jonny_ftm

*Re: Hardscaping: my second try*

Hi,

Here's a front shot, as it looks now.





The java fern and stems will be grown once immersed

So, what about that rock on the left and using it back side to up or a smaller, yet higher rock for a mountain effect on the left?

Thank you again for all your help


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## Mark Evans

*Re: Hardscaping: my second try*

wow, how different does that look now it's planted! I'm impressed.

there's 2 bits of p helferi in the front which look a little lost. maybe move them back a little towards the stones?.....

you just need some HC or glosso now   

over all, that's a promising layout you have


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## Steve Smith

*Re: Hardscaping: my second try*

Looks great John!  I'd agree with Mark about the P. helferi.  You can always spread them as they grow and you trim them


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## jonny_ftm

*Re: Hardscaping: my second try*

Oh, many thanks, I really apprciate your comments 

I was feeling so "zero" and incapable of designing an aquascape I like, not for any conquest though. Your directions and the help of other people on barrreport helped me a lot.

I'll let the P. Helferi grow and spread as I'm starting it dry, then prune/shape it once immersed indeed.
Still, I'd like to find a narrower/higher rock to replace the big one on the left, yet having the same horizontal lines of the actual one. So that they continue the lines of the wood and the rock on the bottom right.

About the plants, what's the moss that I see people put on the wood of many Amano and contest tanks?


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## Steve Smith

*Re: Hardscaping: my second try*



			
				jonny_ftm said:
			
		

> About the plants, what's the moss that I see people put on the wood of many Amano and contest tanks?



Not sure, there are lots!  Probably something like weeping moss, christmas moss, peacock moss, java moss etc etc...  All have a different way of growing, but all respond well to being trimmed.  They thicken up and look marvelous   You *have* to trim them though, not just pull at them, otherwise they'll grow stringy (with a few exceptions).


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## jonny_ftm

*Re: Hardscaping: my second try*

Hi,

About the mosses, Amano uses them much:







What kind of moss are on those wood as they seem to remain very short?

I'll post later with some more arrangement on the substrate to make a thinner layer on front and add more perspective. It will be a big work though, hope it won't stress the plants too much as this dry starting is some fragile


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## jonny_ftm

Hi,

2 weeks later (sorry, but condensation limits front shots. I don't like to remove it to avoid messing the glass with some left sand):









The recipient is to help maintain good humidity. And 2 calibrated Hygrometers to monitor hygrometry reliabely

The tenellus didn't rot and looks great. The P. Helferi grew in size significantely. The C. Parva is nice green and didn't melt.

Still waiting for emerged leaves to appear to scream success


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## Steve Smith

Looking great Jonny!



			
				jonny_ftm said:
			
		

> Still waiting for emerged leaves to appear to scream success



Fingers crossed!


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## jonny_ftm

3 weeks later

I modified the small rock on the left and will be pruning the helferi for the layout in few weeks

Top view to compare the growth with the previous shot, 3 weeks later, and after having pruned the tenellus from decayed leaves:






Front shots, with/without flash:









I got new leaves from all plants. The P. Helferi is getting bigger in size and is well rooted, far better than the ones planted in my 60gal since 2 months. The C. Parva is the slower but new leaves are out and old ones still great looking, no melting.

E. Tenellus is a deception as it doesn't behave like usual swords: fast growth, old leaves decay too quickely rather like stem plants. If it stays as invasive once immersed I'll have to get rid of it as my main concern is a low maintenance tank. Any idea on another plant I could replace the Tenellus with? Blyxa?


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## neelhound

The rock on the left looks nice. I think replace with eleocharis


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## jonny_ftm

Hi and thank you for the comments,

Eleocharis is a good option indeed.

What about the Blyxa? Do its leaves die quickely like stems, or do they behave like the Echinodorus species?


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## neelhound

IMO blyxa looks best around rocks or wood. In that space where the echinodorus tenellus is elecocharis would proabably be more suited.  
The main annoying thing about blyxa is that it floats too much but its leaves are ok


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## glenn

what are you going to do with the open space at the front, it looks very nice bare and the p. Herafi around it but i think it would look nice if you  made a path way with play sand leading right to the back going through the stone and wood.
a bit like this.


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## jonny_ftm

@neelhound
Thank you, you convinced me the eleocharis road, I'll try to order some of it. I'll keep some tenellus between the rock on the right and glass, it could be easier to control than in the background open area

@glenn: sure, I plan to. It's only in the growing emerged phase. Once well grown, I'll enhance the P. Helferi layout to focus on the pathway. It could end with some contrasting higher plant, like R. Wallichii (putting it in the end of the pathway and filling the left back corner with eleocharis too), or to a rocky part, adding some rocks in the right back corner up to the pathway, have to see... If I go that way, I'll add the sand in pathway before submerging the tank


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## jonny_ftm

1 month later, aquarium is now 2 months old, but Eleocharis is just 3 weeks old

So, replaced the tenellus in background with Eleocharis, it is sending shoots every where too, but at least it is taller for my setup. Also, P. Helferi was trimmed









And 48h ago, added some Anubia Barteri var. Nana "petite" on one branch of the wood


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## jonny_ftm

Hi,

I modified the rocks and switched the frontest branch of the wood with a smaller and thinner one

Anubia nana petite seems to do well


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## Garuf

That's a great tank you've got there, how are you finding emerse growing in innert soil? I was always told you have to have a rich substrate?


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## jonny_ftm

Inert substrate   

It is a 3 cm layer of earthworm castings, topped with flourite black sand, misted with water fom my EI tank.   

Growth is great, C. Parva and P. Helferi are well established. Eleocharis too, just I still didn't remove the leafs dead when I planted it, due I didn't separate them well. Also Eleocharis still need some time, it is 4 weeks old, where others are 8 weeks. Growth could be much faster I believe, but I only used 22W light.

Anubia is astonishing, no contact with soil for the middle plantlets, only 2 weeks, and already emersed leafs   

I could give it a few weeks more if everything remains fine


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## vauxhallmark

It's looking great.

One thing that it might be worth thinking about before you fill the tank is the substrate slope (ie, there is none!).

When you add water it will appear (from the front pane) that the subtrate is sloping down towards the back. If you make it slope so that it's about twice as high at the back as at the front, it will appear almost level with water added. If you want it to appear to slope up, you will have to put an even steeper slope in!

Also, be aware that all the rocks and stones will appear closer to the front glass when the tank's filled. 

If you do decide to make any changes to the slope it's probably going to be easier to do now, before the tank is filled.

All the best!

Mark


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## jonny_ftm

Thank you for the feedback,

I thought so much abot the slope. The problem is that when I put the substrate, the front layer ended to be too thick. If I need a slope, the back part would have to be too heigh for my taste. Also, it will be problematic to hide my heater with a very high soil in the back. I ended up building that mountain on the right. But now, I see I should have better put it on the left, as it will be the exposed face.

Finally, over time, slopes tend to level...

But if you have any suggestion to improve relief in another way...


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## jonny_ftm

I modified the layout mainly by changing the left rock to a shorter one with more surface relief:







Anubia roots are heading to the substrate. They don't dry in the moist air and I could remove cotton now:











Now, the P. Helferi is showing an interesting move to the emersed less sexy form:






The P. Helferi in middle of the tank are still showing a nice submerged form (look at the one in 2nd photo, on the right of the anubia). The front lateral plantlets are loosing submerged leaves and sending emersed ones. I don't get it why, but the light, more intense in the middle, can be an explanation   

I'm also thinking at the fish. It will be around 10-15 Boraras maculatus red fish or the Danio erythromicron (blue fish, but likes harder water and very shy not shoaling), some critters or some Hara jerdoni

I need an advice on what I can put all behind/above the big mountain on the right: Anubia var nana (not petite), Winlow Java fern?


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## TBRO

Very interesting Journal, are you worried about a crash when the system is submerged? Some moss would do very well on the wood in the current conditions. 

Looking forward to the flood - T


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## Mark Evans

very interesting indeed. very nice too.

I'm another person that just cant get my head around the dry start method. why? i ask. grow everything to emerged state to then put it underwater for it to transform back going through the same problems you'd have from planting in the first days immersed.

Tom barr is god like at times, but i never do understand the dry start HC method. either you can grow it or you cant, if you cant, learn. Plus, i think a scape would look strange with a fully grown HC carpet, and the stems etc not even close to being grown in., then having to replant a HC carpet because it's already grown in  :?


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## jonny_ftm

No crash, if you know what to do. Plants are established with the roots, soil is cycled, filter also. The only difference will be CO2 and O2: surface movement and good CO2 gasing is the key of success once submerged

Ferns can't go on the wood right now, they will need daily or 2x/day misting --> too much work for me

What hassle/problems are there in a dry start? To grow tropical plants under our latitudes, be it emersed or immersed, we need to respect their needs. Most people fail for the same reasons:

 - they do completely close the lid, no aeration ---> no O2, no CO2
 - they mist daily ---> mold
 - they keep water level above substrate ---> algae, mold, rotting
 - they don't keep a good humidity level: above 80%
 - use inert substrates

Dry start is 0 problem in this case: no maintenance at all, plants grow, no algae, just misting 1-2/ 15d
Stems will grow instantly when you immerse your tank because the soil is cycled and rich. You can grow them emersed if you like, but you'll go for regular trimming maintenance. The aim is to reduce maintenance and simplify the start

Anyway, any help on what should I put on the right back corner, above the "mountain" on the right? Anubia var nana (not petite), Java fern?


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## mr. luke

Looking good 
I cant help thinking this would make a cracking iwagumi if you just removed the wood


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## jonny_ftm

Here it is, submerged yesterday, CO2 injected via the UP atomizer system, the mist is incredible and all plants are covered with CO2 microbubbles. In few minutes, the mist looks effective.

CO2 injected shots:















After CO2 shutdown:






Water is crytal clear from startup. The organic layer formed during emerged phase helps avoiding the cloudy effect when filling the aquarium. Also, first fill was done with a perfusion like mod using air tubing.


I missed the layout of the right corner though. The java windlow fern looks like put there and the rocky aspect is completely lost with the Anubia nana petite. I'm a bit disappointed and will lokk at it later.

But meanwhile, help me rebuild that right corner so that it looks nicer please


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## neelhound

i think move the anubias so its clumped at the base of the wood instead of obsuring the wood.hth. What moss is it on the wood, is it flame?


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## jonny_ftm

Christmas moss on the wood, weeping moss on the small stone on the left.

And yes, I think I'll remove those Anubia on the lower wood and enhance the disposition on the right of the tank

No algae for now except a BGA (cyano) bloom (didn't clean the soil from organics) that I just finished treating with clarithromycine


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## andyh

only just found this journal, your tank looks great and has real potential once the plants start to grow more.


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## jonny_ftm

Many thanks for the nice comments,

The moss is what's growing the fastest for now, incredible. In One week, I have about 1-2 cm gowth of the moss
R. Wallichii is getting very nice with many collaterals
The P. Helferi is having a bad time, it looks like it needs a bit to adapt


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## jonny_ftm

In 3 weeks, the thing grew really a lot, only one 11W Arcpod for now, the 2nd is off since 3 weeks. P. Helferi is growing rather fast in a more beautiful submerged form (emersed form is so ugly and unstructered). The Anubia that suffered from submersion is doing fine. R. Wallichii needs a trim. No algae exept on the moss



























Will wait for more growth before I modify some parts maybe


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## TBRO

Lush growth Jonny, really taking off now. Especially like the hairgrass. You may have explained this earlier but whats with the gap at the front?


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## jonny_ftm

Hi,

I'm going to remove the P. Helferi on the right of the gap and fill the front gap + right side of it with glosso. I have the glosso pot laying in my 230L but couldn't find time to do it


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## CeeJay

Hi 

This is growing in nicely.
Good job   .

Chris


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## jonny_ftm

Hi,

Here's how it looks, after 6 weeks of immersion. Clean, no algae, except self limited green hairs on mosses.
*Only 0.9W/gal total volume (1.5W/gal real volume)* . Only one of the 2 Arcpods is On since 4 weeks. The second will be removed.

I put some glosso in front right side. Just will wait a while till it grows than remove the remaining P. Helferi in the middle and right to extend glosso there and let P. Helferi only on left.

R. Wallichii was trimmed hardely today so it doesn't show well


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## Dave Spencer

That is a nice looking tank, helped by some decent pics. I think I will give R. wallichii a go in my next scape.

Dave.


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## jonny_ftm

Yes, it's amazing how things grow with this light. PC-Light also seems to be much more intense than T8. It is something like T5, so the overall visual aspect is reall great, well enlightened, not dimm

In the photos, you see 2 Arcpods of 11w, but only one is On. I started with 2, but growth was too fast for my taste. Now, 4 weeks with 11W and it is even better looking

R. Wallichii doesn't have any trouble with that light. It was very dense and reached surface, so trimmed it hardely, not showing well now. P. helferi is great growing also under the low light and Glosso will grow fine, I feel it from the aspect. 

Right side is more dim, better for Anubia and Windlow Fern

Also, tons of snails I introduced on purpose. They help a lot


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## jonny_ftm

Hi,

I had to remove the rocks because they were very calcareous and the KH and GH were very unstable
Used petrified wood instead.

Eleocharis was never trimmed, only delimited to not invade the front. Glosso is growing so slowly, but it roots and grows, very low light doesn't help, but CO2 does help. Hopefully I prove that we can carpet glosso with so low light


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## jonny_ftm

*Re: Dry start: my 11gal nano (Title was: Hardscaping my 2nd *

Here's how it grows, 0.9wpg light. Glosso adapted to extreme low light and now grows quickly and responds to trimming by launching many shoots. P. Helferi needs a little more time as I trimmed and replanted it in a more spaced pattern. It should cover the left side in few weeks.

Eleocharis was never trimmed or maintained at all yet.

The mosses were trimmed and need a new trimming soon.

Overall, this is a very low maintenance tank, except weekly WC for now, without syphonnig: 20mn only.


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## jonny_ftm

*Re: Dry start: my 11gal nano (Title was: Hardscaping my 2nd *

Was bored from P. Helferi in the front and liked a shorter plant, easy to maintain. As my floating riccia that started with 0.5in diameter became a 6in diameter circle shading too much light, I decided to use a riccia carpet

Glosso is growing greatly, just trimmed it short before the photo. It will be denser in few weeks and I'll post new photos when riccia and glosso grow denser

With low light, things are very slow, but at least, I see no algae even on the anubia after 5 months without removing any decaying leave 





























I realize it lacks some slope in the bottom left part. Maybe one time I remove some of the eleocharis and use rocks to make the slope

Despite the plants health and their density, this tank is a rather low maintenance. Eleocharis, anubia, parvula and java fern were never trimmed in 5 months. Glosso trimmed once since 3 months. The mosses trimmed every 2-3 months. I just started the riccia, but should be trimmed every 1-2 months I think, let's see. P. Helferi needed a retop after 4 months + the 4-5 months of dry start. Wallichii needs monthly trimming, I don't retop it as it responds nicely with side shoots

No decaying leaves, even the P. helferi. Shrimps and a hundred of snails take care of every organic matter. Soil is never siphoned (trumpet snails help). Glass never cleaned in 5 months (light is put along the bottom side of tank to avoid algae on glass). Canister never cleaned after near 5 months of immersion

Only feeding fish and shrimps daily, 20mn for the 50% weekly WC (just 3.9 gallons of water to use, no siphoning, so not too much work)

PS: my pictures pass through paint shop pro with 2 functions: a crop then a resize to reduce their size. Not any other picture enhancement filter. I use a tripod to take photos with my cheap digital camera. Hopefully I get soon a better camera.


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## Nelson

*Re: Dry start: my 11gal nano (Title was: Hardscaping my 2nd *

thats great.love it.well done mate   .


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## Steve Smith

*Re: Dry start: my 11gal nano (Title was: Hardscaping my 2nd *

Looking great as always Johnny   How are the shrimp doing?  Do they breed much?


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## jonny_ftm

*Re: Dry start: my 11gal nano (Title was: Hardscaping my 2nd*

Thank you both for the nice comments. I really love the low maintenance it needs. Low light helps a lot

Shrimps do well, RCS breed no problems. CRS on the other hand are another story. I lost 80% of them because of my first calcareous stones. Was using mineralized RO but the stones were causing a +4Â°GH between 2 WC. I tested and solved this only after many weeks when I saw many CRS dead after each WC. Since I changed for petrified wood, no more issues, but I'm left with 7 CRS. I think it is a too low number to breed them. I'm waiting for better weather conditions to order some 20-30 new ones and try to breed them. I'm not sure breeding CRS is possible with EI and 50% WC as they need stability. We'll see. Also a small tank can limit CRS breeding. I feed them daily.


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## jonny_ftm

*Re: Dry start: my 11gal nano (Title was: Hardscaping my 2nd *

Hi,

Here's how it is going now, 7 months after immersion. High CO2, low light and low maintenance really. WC every week, 50% that takes 15mn total because of volume. No syphoning at all (low fish load, many shrimps an snails to do the work for me). Trimming every 4-6 weeks. Glass was never cleaned in 7 months, crystal clear !!!

Note: I changed my digital camera, so photos quality changed (Only retouching is white balance corrected in raw mode, resize and crop)

*Before trimming*
































*After trimming it:*


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## Shivers

*Re: Dry start: my 11gal nano (Title was: Hardscaping my 2nd *

That look great mate, keep up the good work!


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## jonny_ftm

*Re: Dry start: my 11gal nano (Title was: Hardscaping my 2nd *

Many thanks for all the feedback

Tank is still running, so healthy.

Since 3 weeks now, I pushed the limits: Co2 moved from 46 bpm to only 6 bpm
Waterchange: 10% (2-3L) /week (was 60% /week)
No more dosing macro
TPN only 1ml /week

After trimming Eleocharis to the roots:






And, 3 weeks later, with low CO2, less dosing, Riccia was completely rescaped and growed in 2 weeks as in the photo:


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