# Breaking rules



## greenink (18 Dec 2013)

So just went to the rather lovely new Charterhouse Aquatics in East London. Where there is this tank:









(Sorry, iPhone pics only). Talked to the person who looks after it.

Very high CO2, not on a solenoid, switched on about 2hrs before lights on, sometimes forgotten about so goes a whole day without CO2 at all (!) and no consistency in injection rates - but as you can see from the drop checker, very high CO2 levels indeed...
Regular lean ADA dosing, with Aquasoil substrate
2ml excel dosed every 3 days
Almost no flow at all, and no surface movement
Very low stocking (just a few minnows)
RO water, 50% changed a week
What looked like pretty bright ADA solar lighting

This breaks lots of the 'rules' I've come to learn here and from my own experience around flow and CO2 consistency. But it's the closest I've ever seen to an Amano regime in real life. Looks pretty good to me. But if I tried it, I'd have an algae-fest for sure.

My main conclusion is how strongly it reinforces the 'high CO2 is everything' idea... What do people think?


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## Iain Sutherland (18 Dec 2013)

ooh, charterhouse is on my list of places to visit on my next trip down that way. Is it worth the visit??

I would hazard a guess that the light is actually quite low... 1 x 150hqi at that height on a 90 wouldnt deliver very high par values. Thats not to say it doesnt suprise me... ive seen a few tanks at freshwatershrimp with what looks like almost no flow but lush growth. I believe its a high turnover/low flow balance, something i havent tried but keen to at some point. RO with low ferts also helps a lot IMO.

Is the filter outlet an inlet??  hence low flow...


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## GreenNeedle (18 Dec 2013)

Not really,  depends how often they forget and for how long.  a day here or there wouldn't be too much of a problem and some of us can be a little 'blase' so to speak when talking about our own tanks.  Sometimes we can say something off the cuff that sounds different to the listener than we meant.

I often talk about how lazy I am with tanks.  Sometimes I am but sometimes when I am putting more time into a tank and just having small lazy periods I think to myself after saying that it could sound like I'm, not doing much at all.


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## plantbrain (18 Dec 2013)

Actually the ADA lights are very LOW PAR, much less than you might predict.
The light is also a good 45 cm or thereabouts above the tank. 

I've measured the ADA lights using a PAR meter on 6 different tanks. They all fell to about 40-50 umols at the surface of the sediment, this tank looks no different.
the stems in the rear will be higher, the front edge will be a little lower etc.

Hardly any fish and those are tougher, ADA AS contains the nutrients(quite a bit), but runs out of N after about a year, but fish and other sources contribute after that. 
Hair grass is not a demanding plant as far as light or CO2, then a few stems.

This does not break the rules unless you make assumptions about the light and are okay with only a few hardy fish.
Looks like white clouds, which are very tough.

Imagine 20 white clouds in in a plain 90 cm tank without plants?
You would not need much movement. It's a moderately low light tank. Do not believe me? Then get a light meter and test it.
Surface is only about 150-180 umols.

My tank has about 450+, sediment, about 120-140umols.

3 x this.

But...take my Buce tank, it's very similar to this tank, I knock the light down to 35%, less ferts, the tank has grown in well now, ADA AS sediment etc.

Same 90 cm, but a little larger:


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## George Farmer (18 Dec 2013)

+1 on the low PAR, especially the NA-Green. I had more PAR over same tank using 25w LED.

They look bright because our eyes are most sensitive to green, but there's relatively little blue/red which is responsible for PAR.

Scape looks great though, despite lack of consistent maintenance. 

There was talk of me doing a demo display for them at some point. Could make for a UKAPS get-together.


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## Iain Sutherland (18 Dec 2013)

George Farmer said:


> There was talk of me doing a demo display for them at some point. Could make for a UKAPS get-together.


make it so


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## foxfish (18 Dec 2013)

Hi Mike, that is an amazing algae free tank!

25 years ago the information was very different to what we find nowadays.

When I bought my first Co2 kit in about 1982 low flow was essential & with no surface movement either.
Co2 was dissolved by internal ladder design reactors, water was either rain or RO & 20% a week was the norm.
Lighting was by either mercury vapour or T8 but if T8 you needed lots of them.
Stocking levels were low!
My point is this is not a new approach but an old one.
Here in an old broacher of mine from about 1985....


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## greenink (18 Dec 2013)

Really interesting - thanks. Also a bit encouraging. Yes, the 'outlet' looks like an 'inlet' to most people.



Iain Sutherland said:


> ooh, charterhouse is on my list of places to visit on my next trip down that way. Is it worth the visit??


 
It's about two minutes from my house, which makes it easier! The showroom is something else - have never seen anything like it, and they've got enormous stock of stuff in a separate arch. The tanks are mainly marine; this is the only decent planted tank. The other planted ones are starting to get a bit shabby. People all very nice. Every time I go there's a trendy mum taking a toddler round, which bodes well for the future...!

Is sort of exactly as you'd expect an aquatics website that does a lot of Marine to be if turned into a real thing: lovely showroom, not much stock of anything planted and alive, massive stock of everything else, so great if your filter breaks, or you suddenly need a powerhead. No plants or tropical fish to speak of. Can't understand why they don't get a lot more hardscape in - they've got the space and that was the one thing I was a bit disappointed about.

In combination with Wholesale Tropicals a mile or so away, which has incredible fish stock but poor plants, and ADC in town, is pretty much all bases covered.



George Farmer said:


> They look bright because our eyes are most sensitive to green, but there's relatively little blue/red which is responsible for PAR.


 
That must explain it - looked bright there to my eyes. Plus the showroom is pretty dark.



George Farmer said:


> There was talk of me doing a demo display for them at some point. Could make for a UKAPS get-together.



They could really do with a few amazing planted tanks.


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## plantbrain (19 Dec 2013)

Take a PAR meter then you have a standard comparison for light, not Watts, or your eyeballs.
I find it interesting folks give light a free pass, but are very critical about fertilizers. 

Tropica made the best article that explains all the various methods:
Tropica Aquarium Plants - Rådgivning - Tekniske artikler - Vandplanters biologi - Interaktioner mellem lys og CO2

See table 1, that is EVERY aquarium pretty much. 
Light and CO2 are the main drivers of growth.

Less light= easier management.
Amano knows this and he also knows that people really do not dose well, he also knows folks think more light is better.
Maybe it's on purpose, maybe not.

A PAR meter made the so called breaking of the rules plainly obvious and explanatory with ADA.
Now you can apply these same ideas on cheap DIY or other brands. I think that says it all, versus belief in Amano alone.
With belief, you learn little.
With good logic based methods, you learn a lot.
Ponder that.


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## greenink (19 Dec 2013)

Thanks, really helpful. Was trying to understand how it was done - and what I'd misunderstood or got wrong. Your posts in general remind me of my favourite philosopher, David Hume, writing 'Of Miracles':


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## GreenNeedle (19 Dec 2013)

Lol. flashback 5 or 6 years on the ADA argument.  I think it was the beginning of the LEDs that spurred on the debate over lighting levels in reality rather then the 4 - 6WPG we were told was high light and necessary by the APC crowd. That was back in the day of me writing 10,000 character posts (rants) on the subject and boring lots of people with them.


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## plantbrain (19 Dec 2013)

Hume is awesome. The APC crowd, not so much.  All the research, all the logic must be wrong and your bad assumptions must be right because you wish it to be so. 

You do not win a debate, change anyone's mind or learn much that way. I assumed I knew nothing, but I did know where 6 nice ADA tanks where and I had a good standardized tool to measure PAR.
"Maybe Tom is lying" Maybe.........but not likely. Anyone else could come along and use the same meter and report otherwise if so. 

If it were one or two tanks using ADA, then that would be one thing, or if the tank was in bad shape...........
But 6 shows a pattern, some statistical support is there.

2 Other client's used the lights also. You folks can borrow a PAR meter and measure it yourself. 
See if you can convince yourself if something is true or not???  My goal has never been to put someone down or desire their belief, it's simpler than that; to see if they can convince themselves if something is true or not.
"Do you buy this argument?" "Does this seem true to you?" 
"Why does this work?" "What should we look at to see what something works well with plant growth, algae fish??"

Seek questions, not answers.
Answers will come and they will be much more specific and to the point.


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## NatureBoy (19 Dec 2013)

mikeappleby said:


> Thanks, really helpful. Was trying to understand how it was done - and what I'd misunderstood or got wrong. Your posts in general remind me of my favourite philosopher, David Hume, writing 'Of Miracles':


 
did that guy have a lisp?


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## Michael W (19 Dec 2013)

That is old English for you. I have to deal with that at uni in nearly every lecture/seminar, its painful to understand, this is a pretty nice one compared to the ones I have to read.


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## greenink (19 Dec 2013)

Gets weirdly easier after a few minutes. You sort of tune into it.


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## harryH (19 Dec 2013)

One could end up with one helluva lisp!


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## tim (19 Dec 2013)

mikeappleby said:


> Thanks, really helpful. Was trying to understand how it was done - and what I'd misunderstood or got wrong. Your posts in general remind me of my favourite philosopher, David Hume, writing 'Of Miracles':


Makes sense to me.


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## Michael W (19 Dec 2013)

plantbrain said:


> it's simpler than that; to see if they can convince themselves if something is true or not.


 
I agree, trying to convince that someone is wrong just by explanation and showing facts etc is not enough if they have a fixed idea in mind which opposes your explanation. Most of the time they need to experience things themselves before they believe or come to an understanding. Historian Carr suggested that the historian shapes his facts to his interpretations, since the mind is conditioned by a person's surrounding and what he has been taught initially it is had for them to take facts for what it is without feeding their acquired knowledge into the fact. He therefore come to the conclusion that facts are meaningless without the historian giving it meaning which will come from their experience.

I'm sure myself and many people have made suggestions on certain issues but our opinions were never heard, usually their reaction would be for example "I'm from X site, it is a site dedicated to X fish and I'm sure if they say placing X fish in an aquarium that is XYZ sized will be fine". A classic example of someone ignoring advice because of their surrounding, until they meet problems such as the fish becoming too big for the tank or the fish killing each other due to aggression and the lack of space to retreat, they will unlikely accept your opinion.


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## viktorlantos (19 Dec 2013)

Well ADA not really use one Solar above a 90P tank.
They use a Grand Solar, or 2 Solars. More light for more hours. Currently 10 hours per day!


Japan Tour 2013 by viktorlantos, on Flickr


Japan Tour 2013 by viktorlantos, on Flickr


Japan Tour 2013 by viktorlantos, on Flickr

The problem is with a single Solar unit above a 90P that it will have shady areas on the sides.

Like in our tank

Green Aqua Showroom by viktorlantos, on Flickr

Still the above demo tank in the first post looks healthy. Parvula looking great with perfect density.
A matured tank can live with a few changes. So if you forget to dose or CO2 is out, there should not be a problem. And this is not the 150 HQI issue.
A same tank with a powerful light also that stable if it is matured.

Its not the ADA Solar issue, this is the weak HQI issue. 150W HQI is just not strong. No matter where you get it. From Giesemann or others.
We do use more lighting powers with our good T5s anytime.

150W HQI is far from an ATI 4*39W. This light is the best for a 60P or 60F tank where the light is equal powerful on all edges.
I do have Giesemann HQI and the Solar next to each other. Solar has a wider light angle. So i guess giesemann would not work for a 90P like you see on the pic above.
This is again a fact that a single HQI is only suitable for a 60cm tank or a 70max. Above this you will see shady areas.

150W HQI is not that much, But still can grow algae and can make your tank look bad if you do not know what you're doing 
So thumbs up for CH guys to have a display like this in a shop.


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## plantbrain (20 Dec 2013)

Did you measure the PAR?
The distance from the light to the surface? Plant tips?

You can get away with a single light on a 90P or the 90H.
AFA does just fine with their scapes in their store.
But they do not have higher light plants, but hairgrass is not a high light plant, peral weed etc, easy to get away with those.

Adding stems in the higher sections in the rear allow you to use less light and once they get near the surface and top out, then the CO2 is not critical, and there's not much plant biomass in many of these examples, those are all very easy not demanding plants. Well done etc, but hardly in the upper ranges of difficulty.
I've rarely seen ADA use hard to grow plants. There's a few obvious and good reasons for this, but you can get away with a lot by doing this. 

I think most already know that. But aquarist often over look it.
Moss, ferns, driftwood , not foreground plants........................or a much more open design with a foreground plant, but much less stems and other plants blocking the light......
These things are rather obvious.

More light= more growth= more CO2 and nutrient demand.
Fine if you want to redo the scapes yearly, which I think ADA does do very often on the smaller tanks or have enough labor to do dozens of nice scapes.

AFA has several folks working there and 6-10 tanks, they have trouble keeping up on that.
ADA has to have a lot of people working to keep these tanks in good condition,.
That makes a big difference also, not to mention high grade professional photography.

So a few things hobbyists often overlook, do not factor into the equation.
I do not think ADA avoids telling hobbyist this, they actually talk about it, but folks often do not listen.

Gardening is far more revered in Japan, the culture places a value on it. Not so much in the West.


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## Monk d'Wally de Honk (20 Dec 2013)

Michael W said:


> That is old English for you. I have to deal with that at uni in nearly every lecture/seminar, its painful to understand, this is a pretty nice one compared to the ones I have to read.


 

That'd be a right pain in the arfe.


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