# Caribsea Samurai Soil?



## FISHnLAB (18 Oct 2022)

Hi guys, has anyone tried Caribsea's Samurai Soil? How does it compare to other quality aquasoils like ADA, Tropica, UNS? I can't seam to find a ton of info on it but, it is easier to get then some of the others for me. Thanks.









						Freshwater Substrates - CaribSea
					

AFRICAN CICHLID MIX™ Eco-Complete™ Cichlid Eco‑Planted™ Super Naturals™ Samurai Soil™ Samurai Soil™ Multi-Color AFRICAN CICHLID MIX™Offered in seven varieties to suit every aquarist’s taste. CaribSea’s African Cichlid substrates can help recreate a variety of environments. Rift Lake Authentic™...




					caribsea.com


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## dw1305 (19 Oct 2022)

Hi all,


FISHnLAB said:


> I can't seam to find a ton of info on it


Not a very <"informative web site">. I'm going to assume that they don't contain any nutrients, but presumably have some CEC (because of the "_promotes neutral to acidic pH_" bit).  I think it must be similar to moler clay which <"has been acid washed?">. I'm guessing they would be absolutely fine, but not really an aqua soil. I'd love to know what they are made of, I was going to say that they look a bit unnatural, but_ ta da_........ 

Why didn't you go for "Samurai Soil™ Multi-Color"? It says "_Maroon, black, and white spheres (1 mm approx.) are a beautiful and functional backdrop for shrimp and planted aquaria_". What is not to like there?





cheers Darrel


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## Hufsa (19 Oct 2022)

dw1305 said:


> "_Maroon, black, and white spheres (1 mm approx.) are a beautiful and functional backdrop for shrimp and planted aquaria_".


Ive always wanted that "spilled osmocote into the tank" look 😍 Im going to import a pallet of this "substance" ASAP, shall I put you down for a few bags then @dw1305


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## dw1305 (19 Oct 2022)

Hi all,


Hufsa said:


> Ive always wanted that "spilled osmocote into the tank" look 😍 Im going to import a pallet of this "substance" ASAP, shall I put you down for a few bags then @dw1305


I may have to pass on that very kind offer, I'm not sure it is quite me.  Although I may have a <"DIY alternative">, which may even be cheaper?
I could write some <"advertising for them">, but <"RENA never took me up on my offer">, and no-one has offered since.

A few years ago I did consider going into <"the substrate business">, but I'd need something a <"lot more colourful">.





cheers Darrel


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## Witcher (19 Oct 2022)

dw1305 said:


> I could write some <"advertising for them">



What about the slogan:

"Samurai soil. You'll commit seppuku when you'll see the price."


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## FISHnLAB (19 Oct 2022)

Thanks for all of the reply's guys👍. 

So I guess I should pass on it then guys? And, just go for a more common soil?

Too bad as it's very easy for me to get compared to other options. Here in Canada apparently the two shotiest aquasoils Fluval Stratum and Caribsea Samurai Soil are the easiest to get(often the cheapest too when it comes to to Stratum at least). I can get the Samurai Soil, right from Waterbox, added to my new aquarium shipment(free shipping) so it would have been perfect. Oh well, I guess I will have to go back to trying to source some ADA, Tropica, or UNS. Man I hate where I live(hopefully going to change this soon)...


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## FISHnLAB (19 Oct 2022)

Witcher said:


> What about the slogan:
> 
> "Samurai soil. You'll commit seppuku when you'll see the price."


That's pretty much the slogan for all aquasoils lol. Pretty sure I'll be doing a Walstad for my next setup...


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## Hufsa (19 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> That's pretty much the slogan for all aquasoils lol. Pretty sure I'll be doing a Walstad for my next setup...


Could always join the sand crew, we even have @plantnoobdude now 🤩😊


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## sparkyweasel (19 Oct 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Maroon, black, and white spheres


They should make their minds up about what spheres are;

"Eco-Planted’s™ has highly porous spherical grains"


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## FISHnLAB (19 Oct 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Could always join the sand crew, we even have @plantnoobdude now 🤩😊


You may one day pull me into the fold Hufsa😁.

I just want to do aquasoil on my first big setup as I will probably be adding plants, moving plants, and maybe killing plants😋 quite often and aquasoil seams like a better option for that. I also want the absolute fastest and lushest growth possible for the first while anyway(I'm an impatient grower and like trimming). Getting some first hand experience with quality aquasoil is important to me as well so I can observe the differences between inert substrates, sand or gravel topped terrestrial soil Walstad Style, & Aquasoil. I'm using Seachem Flourite Black Gravel in all my tanks now so clay based inert is checked off the list. I'd also like to try aquasoil topped with coarse sand one day...


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## plantnoobdude (19 Oct 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Could always join the sand crew, we even have @plantnoobdude now 🤩😊


Sand is the best😁 end of.

Stays clean, plants happy, tank pretty 😍


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## Witcher (19 Oct 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Sand is the best😁 end of.


Don't forget about adding the poo, like the fish and other inhabitants do!


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## FISHnLAB (19 Oct 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Sand is the best😁 end of.


Are you guys talking just sand alone? Or, soil capped with sand Walstad style?


plantnoobdude said:


> Stays clean, plants happy, tank pretty 😍


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## FISHnLAB (20 Oct 2022)

I think maybe Caribsea was after an aquasoil version of ADA's aqua gravel. It looks similar albeit more artificial(just like all aquasoils really)...


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## plantnoobdude (20 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Are you guys talking just sand alone? Or, soil capped with sand Walstad style?


Fine Sand alone.


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## dw1305 (20 Oct 2022)

Hi all, 


FISHnLAB said:


> Are you guys talking just sand alone?


I just use silica sand, usually <"play sand">. I mix a minimal amount of clay and leaf mold in, but if I <"don't have any to hand?"> I don't worry too much. 

I want a low nutrient substrate, but because I want to <"run the tanks as lean as possible">. 


> When I set up a new tank I just mix a small amount (5 - 10% by volume) of the PYO soil, with a similar proportion of Beech (_Fagus sylvatica_) leaf mold and ~90% silica sand.


Once the tank is setup I don't tend to do much gardening and I aim to leave the <"substrate pretty much undisturbed">. 


dw1305 said:


> The uncertainty about what is happening in the sediment was one of the reasons for mainly talking about what might be happening in the <"rhizosphere"> the zone of fluctuating REDOX values, where exudates from the root will be altering the physical, chemical and microbial composition of the substrate.
> 
> In the <"Influence of submerged macrophytes, temperature, and nutrient loading on the development of redox potential around the sediment–water interface in lakes"> it mentions that their experimental plants didn't have much radial oxygen loss.
> 
> I'd guess that if they had used _Cyperus_ spp, <"_Phragmites australis_">, _Nelumbo_ sp. or an <"Amazon Sword"> (_Echinodorus_ spp) etc. that their findings may have been slightly different.



cheers Darrel


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## Wookii (20 Oct 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Sand is the best😁 end of.
> 
> Stays clean, plants happy, tank pretty 😍



I'm a sand convert too!


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## FISHnLAB (20 Oct 2022)

Don't you guys find that it limits your success? 

I know not everyone's version of success is the same in the planted tank realm but, I have read from multiple sources including Dennis Wong that using soil(whether capped terrestrial or plain aqua) vs not is game changing and the difference in results is easily measureable. Can one really still achieve a world class dutch style scape with just sand alone? Does it not limit the growth of heavy root feeders? Do you guys use root tabs or routinely add any nutes to the sand? What are other negatives to this approach? Is one just sacrificing results for savings? 

I'm not trying to disparage the sand only approach and definitely plan to try it one day, I am just trying to learn and get a feel for the pros and cons of each type of substrate approach. Thanks for the input guys and helping me learn👍.


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## FISHnLAB (20 Oct 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I just use silica sand, usually <"play sand">. I mix a minimal amount of clay and leaf mold in, but if I <"don't have any to hand?"> I don't worry too much.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the detailed post Darrel, your posts are always so helpful with all the links👍. It's funny, I am just in the process of learning about redox and plan to get a meter eventually. It sure seams like an under talked about or studied thing in this hobby that is of great importance but, I am still learning.


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## dw1305 (20 Oct 2022)

Hi all, 


FISHnLAB said:


> It's funny, I am just in the process of learning about redox and plan to get a meter eventually. It sure seams like an under talked about or studied thing in this hobby that is of great importance but, I am still learning.


I have <"another link for you">.

cheers Darrel


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## plantnoobdude (20 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Does it not limit the growth of heavy root feeders


Well well well, do I have the post for you!
Eriocaulon quinqunagulare is always said to be a heavy root feeder. But it seems to do just fine in sand.








						My 60p soft water
					

Fast forward a bit andddd   Good news: plants lookin really good  Ludwigia Pantanal and macrandra doing well .two of the hardest plants in my tank🙂   Fairly sure the wallichii is doing well but uhm I can’t really see it. There’s some fuzzy algae on some stuff but not too fussed yet. Guess I’ll...



					www.ukaps.org
				





FISHnLAB said:


> Can one really still achieve a world class dutch style scape with just sand alone? Does it not limit the growth of heavy root feeders


👍 yes. World class Dutch tanks, here you go. Joe Harvey’s 2020 entry that won second place in AGA.








						#793: 284L Dutch Aquascape “Through The Looking Glass”
					

#793: 284L Dutch Aquascape “Through The Looking Glass”, by Joe Harvey Athens, AL, United States, is an aquascape from AGA 2020 Aquascaping Contest.



					showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org
				





FISHnLAB said:


> Do you guys use root tabs or routinely add any nutes to the sand?


Nope, and I know hufsa doesn’t either. Not sure about @Wookii though.


FISHnLAB said:


> What are other negatives to this approach? Is


I can’t think of many to be honest🤔
I moved over a dozen species from aqua soil to sand and almost every species is doing well, and some are actually doing better. The one exception is Ammannia pedicellata, that is a picky one. Still haven’t got it to grow well in sand.


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## FISHnLAB (20 Oct 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have <"another link for you">.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Thanks again Darrel, I have a read👍. Man, there really isn't enough hours in the day to learn lol. I can see why people that have been in this hobby for years or even decades are still learning new things every day. Super interesting and rewarding albeit bottomless rabbit hole of a hobby... 

This is the place I have been reading about it so far. Think it's a reliable and up to date source?






						Aquarium Redox Balance | Fish Health | Potential & Reduction | rH
					






					www.americanaquariumproducts.com


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## Wookii (20 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Do you guys use root tabs or routinely add any nutes to the sand?





plantnoobdude said:


> Nope, and I know hufsa doesn’t either. Not sure about @Wookii though.



I have to admit to adding a nutrient rich layer (or perhaps better described as a nutrient absorbing layer) beneath the sand, mainly comprised of peat, clay and other high CEC material. However I also have to admit that I'm not entirely sure I need it. 

I tend to take the view that if it's not required, it won't do any harm being there either. 

I'm mainly growing crypts etc in it, not stems like the other guys, and I have found crypts seem to grow even better in sand than they do in plain aquasoil. I'm not sure why.


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## plantnoobdude (20 Oct 2022)

Wookii said:


> I have to admit to adding a nutrient rich layer (or perhaps better described as a nutrient absorbing layer) beneath the sand, mainly comprised of peat, clay and other high CEC material. However I also have to admit that I'm not entirely sure I need it.
> 
> I tend to take the view that if it's not required, it won't do any harm being there either.
> 
> I'm mainly growing crypts etc in it, not stems like the other guys, and I have found crypts seem to grow even better in sand than they do in plain aquasoil. I'm not sure why.


For my Low tech, I used kitty litter. Seems to have most of the benefits of soil without the drawbacks!


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## FISHnLAB (21 Oct 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Well well well, do I have the post for you!
> Eriocaulon quinqunagulare is always said to be a heavy root feeder. But it seems to do just fine in sand.
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, that's pretty impressive PND, thanks for the link👍. But, would they do better with heavy root fertilization as well? 


plantnoobdude said:


> 👍 yes. World class Dutch tanks, here you go. Joe Harvey’s 2020 entry that won second place in AGA.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There isnt very much information there. It says nothing about his fert routines or if he uses anything under the BDBS. Also, that tank's plants look inferior to others I have seen with aquasoil including about every tank in Dennis Wong's gallery. Still a very nice tank however. 


plantnoobdude said:


> Nope, and I know hufsa doesn’t either. Not sure about @Wookii though.


It's definitely nice to know success can be had with just sand and also that a couple of nice folks are having it😊. Again though, would the growth be better/faster with regular root fertilization as well? 


plantnoobdude said:


> I can’t think of many to be honest🤔
> I moved over a dozen species from aqua soil to sand and almost every species is doing well, and some are actually doing better. The one exception is Ammannia pedicellata, that is a picky one. Still haven’t got it to grow well in sand.


I can clearly see that sand is a great option and grows most plants just fine by itself. That said, I just can't throw out the dozens of times I have read from very prominent(and some world class) aquacapers that going to aquasoil or sand capped rich terrestrial soil was game changing for them. Many say the same results can not be had without and have come to that conclusion by testing both extensively too. 

Knowing this, I think when I try sand as a substrate(it will be coarse sand if I do) I will be using either the Walstad method or putting a thin layer(or mesh bag filled portions) of high CEC media under it thoroughly infused with a conbination of NPK+TE or quality root tabs. And, I will top up the nutrients with a homade solution(likely thickened with gelatin or something) from a long syringe(deposited directly to the bottom glass into the high CEC media) or just add root tabs every 1-3 months(depending on what I choose). I just don't see any harm in covering both bases(water column and root fertilization) and it doesn't cost a whole lot to add nutes to the root bed really. If there is plant growth improvement to be had I think it's worth the effort but, everyones mileage may vary of course. For my first real tank I am shooting for the absolute fastest and highest quality plant growth possible and I just think covering all bases gives the best chance of success.


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## plantnoobdude (21 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Wow, that's pretty impressive PND, thanks for the link👍. But, would they do better with heavy root fertilization as well?


I just showed you that there was minimal difference in my tank wether plants were fed at roots+column vs column only.


FISHnLAB said:


> uses anything under the BDBS.


nothing under BDBS. But rich column dosing. You can see more details at TPT.

*“Dosing routine hasnt really changed. 80-90% water change every 6-7 days, then front load 25/9/35ish + 5 Mg. Micros at .17 Fe 3x week. All tanks get pretty much the same routine.”*









						120 Gal Dutchy Freestyle - Now with 35% less water volume!
					

About three weeks in now and everything is coming along pretty good. I wondered if there'd be any 'new tank' issues like diatoms or gda, so far looks like Ive dodged that bullet. The front glass had a little gda for the first week or two. Lately its been crystal clear.    Gratiola cleared up...




					www.plantedtank.net
				




He uses aquasoil in some tanks, sand in most. I believe in the aqua soil tanks he uses acid dosing to lower KH.




FISHnLAB said:


> inferior to others I have seen with aquasoil including about every tank in Dennis Wong's gallery


inferior how? The plants look good to me, and they are all very simple species. I think almost any species will do incredibly in sand substrate. 


FISHnLAB said:


> do) I will be using either the Walstad method or putting a thin layer(or mesh bag filled portions) of high CEC media under it thoroughly infused with a conbination of NPK+TE or quality root tabs. And, I will top up the nutrients with a homade solution(likely thickened with gelatin or


It seems to me like you want a heavily planted Dutch/stem tank? If so I can’t recommend mineralised top soil the way walstad does. In her tanks that plants very rarely get uprooted it works, in a heavily planted high tech? It all just starts to fall apart and go south.

And I can’t recommend root tabs either.
See these threads








						Osmocote plus disaster
					

I was currently testing the osmocote plus for over the month or so, I added handful of osmocote deep into the aqua soil just to see what will happen. I already knew what was likely to happen because I have done a similar experiment before. But this one was more intense compare to the last one...



					www.ukaps.org
				











						Osmocote plus disaster
					

I was currently testing the osmocote plus for over the month or so, I added handful of osmocote deep into the aqua soil just to see what will happen. I already knew what was likely to happen because I have done a similar experiment before. But this one was more intense compare to the last one...



					www.ukaps.org
				




I think instead of nutrients a lot of the time it is more productive to think about co2, flow and *tank cleanliness+husbandry. *In my opinion sand is the best way to keep a tank clean and maintain good plants. In my experience aquasoil needs extensive maintenance to keep clean.


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## FISHnLAB (21 Oct 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> I just showed you that there was minimal difference in my tank wether plants were fed at roots+column vs column only.


Oh, I didn't read the whole thread, just the post you quoted. I assumed you just had one set in aqua and one in sand and only column ferts for both. My bad.


plantnoobdude said:


> nothing under BDBS. But rich column dosing. You can see more details at TPT.
> 
> *“Dosing routine hasnt really changed. 80-90% water change every 6-7 days, then front load 25/9/35ish + 5 Mg. Micros at .17 Fe 3x week. All tanks get pretty much the same routine.”*
> 
> ...


Thanks for the added info👍.


plantnoobdude said:


> inferior how? The plants look good to me, and they are all very simple species. I think almost any species will do incredibly in sand substrate.


Just the growth doesn't look as lush but, maybe I just don't like the style of the tank.

Again, I have read so many times that you just can't get the same results with inert. Dennis Wong and several other prominent voices in the industry say this. I have trouble not believing them as it's not like they sell aquasoil. They have tried it both ways and say they get faster and better growth with aquasoil. It's even right in Dennis's FAQs.

That said, I have no experience and am new to the hobby so who knows(this hobby is more confusing then any I have tried before and there have been many over the years lol). I am just trying to build the best tank I possibly can to achieve a world class aquascape with as little trouble as possible. That is part of the reason why I waited months to get a big tank, I wanted to learn as much as I can first to help achieve success. I am now less then a month from getting my new tank.


plantnoobdude said:


> It seems to me like you want a heavily planted Dutch/stem tank? If so I can’t recommend mineralised top soil the way walstad does. In her tanks that plants very rarely get uprooted it works, in a heavily planted high tech? It all just starts to fall apart and go south.


Honestly I am not fully sure yet as my desires evolve with knowledge lol. It will definitely be heavily planted with a large variety of plants from easy to hard, use Mountain Stone & Spider Wood for hardscape(already been soaking for over a month), will get a daily EI Dosing regimen, will use CO2 controlled by a pH controller, and will have a full stocking of fish, shrimp, and snails once it settles in. Other then that it's all evolving and is still up in the air. One thing is for certain, I will be making mistakes, moving things, and learning as I go so you are probably right in staying away from a Walstad. Oh, and I am loving stem plants so it will definitely have several of them including some hard to grow ones.


plantnoobdude said:


> And I can’t recommend root tabs either.
> See these threads
> 
> 
> ...


Well, I have been using them for 1.5 months(Edit, I forgot that's when I started the tanks, not when I changed them to planted) and don't plan to stop(I have a bunch too). I may one day be sold on column only dosing but, at this point all my scrapes with be built with root tab infused Substrate. I just like the idea of covering both bases(root and column) and considering its not crazy expensive to do so and may add a benefit, I'm ok with it for now.


plantnoobdude said:


> I think instead of nutrients a lot of the time it is more productive to think about co2, flow and *tank cleanliness+husbandry. *


Oh I am heavily researching them too and keep a very clean tank. I just am trying to finalize my plan for my big tank as I have to order all of the supplies in the next month or so. Substrate is still a very hard decision for me. I was pretty sold on aquasoil but, am still considering other options because of the info I am getting from kind folks like you. I just really want the best canvas I can possibly build, I am a bit anal/OCD that way.


plantnoobdude said:


> In my opinion sand is the best way to keep a tank clean and maintain good plants. In my experience aquasoil needs extensive maintenance to keep clean.


That is good to know. You guys definitely have me reconsidering my decision to go with Aquasoil. What exactly was required or different with the aquasoil? It seams like the large pellets would be easy to vacuum or one could just let the detritus feed the plants no? I'm using Seachem Flourite Black in all of my tanks now and it is not great for keeping clean but, I just kind of fluff the bottom with the syphon hose and then suck up the disturbed detritus. I just did it this morning and am able to keep it pretty clean. The biggest downside is I need a screen on my pickup as if I am not careful enough I suck a bit up from time to time and it clogs my ball valve.

Thanks for all of your help PND, it is much appreciated and is helping me further understand things and make more educated decisions. I will be starting a Journal for my new build in a few weeks when my tank gets here. Please feel free to follow and chime in👍.


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## _Maq_ (21 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Can one really still achieve a world class dutch style scape with just sand alone? Does it not limit the growth of heavy root feeders?


Do they exist any "heavy root feeders"? Strong roots do not indicate any 'preference' for root feeding. Strong roots are an adaptation:
(1) to get attached to the bottom in a strong current, or
(2) to take up CO2 through roots, or
(3) to reach nutrients in nutrient-poor environment, or
(4) in the case of species which definitely intend to grow above water surface and thus not taking much nutrients from water column and in need to get firmly anchored in the sediment.


plantnoobdude said:


> Eriocaulon quinqunagulare is always said to be a heavy root feeder. But it seems to do just fine in sand.


It's the case No. (2). I'm not surprised at all that your Eriocaulons do better in silica sand, they live in oligotrophic waters.


Wookii said:


> a nutrient rich layer (or perhaps better described as a nutrient absorbing layer) beneath the sand, mainly comprised of peat, clay and other high CEC material. However I also have to admit that I'm not entirely sure I need it.


That's it: a nutrient *binding* matter. Detritus, clays, ferric (hydr)oxides, and zeolites are materials which bind certain elements. While there are other elements which are never (or seldom) bound to the sediment.


plantnoobdude said:


> I used kitty litter. Seems to have most of the benefits of soil without the drawbacks!


That's one of the possibilities.
I've been experimenting with sand *additives* quite intensely a few years ago. Unfortunately, I haven't arrived at any conclusive results. With one important exception: I consider easily degradable organic matter a clear mistake, a serious drawback of many so called 'aquasoils'.
If you establish a tank with clean sand, it gets enriched with detritus within a few weeks. That's about it. I've tried to enhance it, but without noticeable results. I've studied much theory, but in practice it didn't work.
So my private opinion is that all those "substrates" bring benefits solely to their vendors.


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## Hufsa (21 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> It seams like the large pellets would be easy to vacuum or one could just let the detritus feed the plants no?


Imma chime in again since I am a card-carrying member of Team Sand 😆 Although I still think you could/should go for Aquasoil on your first time for reasons I have mentioned before, and get it out of your system so to speak. I might offend some if I refer to soil as training wheels in this instance, so I wont 😜 The soil will buffer mistakes in dosing and keep the plant fed in both ends though, its just a pain to deal with it. The main problem the way I see it is that while the granules are large, they are not particularly sturdy and do not take kindly to being "handled" much at all. Pretty much any activity is going to knock loose soil particles from the soil balls, because aquarium soil is basically just lightly hardened black dirt balls. So they produce a lot of tiny dirt particles. Every time you uproot a plant there will be either a small or a very large cloud of dirt coming up with it depending on how much root the plant has and your technique. What some of the pros dont show much of is how dirty this process is, some have a separate canister filter they fill with floss just to vacuum up this cloud of dirt when they need to pull out a plant group. And a water change right after (if you dont already run a hose out right while youre uprooting) is pretty much mandatory because its not just visible particles that come up, but invisible substances as well like ammonia. And since the soil particles are quite large, debris easily falls deep into the substrate instead of going to a prefilter where its more easily removed. Letting it stay there is not usually recommend for a nosebleed CO2 high tech tank that needs to avoid organics and algae at all costs. So you need to regularly get the debris out again without actually agitating the soil granules too much. They also naturally break down over time and with disturbances like uprooting and replanting, adding greatly to the dark brown cloud that comes up when vacuuming. If you need to pull up more than a few groups of plants your visibility might get closer to zero, which is a bit of a pain when replanting. I tore up my year+ of undisturbed sand a little while ago, and while there were a light amount of particles, there wasn't nearly as much as there would have been from just a few months in a soil tank. Lastly the soil doesn't retain its properties forever, and depending on how hard you drive your tank to grow, you could see yourself needing to replenish the soil with root tabs or adding new soil sooner than you might imagine. Theres no denying the indications we have seen so far that some plants seem to prefer being fed both with root and leaf. Some people like the added challenge of growing in inert to get "the direct feedback from the plants on dosing" and for the added challenge (plantnoobdude). Some use inert because they are quite lazy and very stubborn and want to do things their own way (me). Youve got to find what works for you, but the way i see it youre really keen to get "this thing" perfect on the first try, and i wonder if you dont go for soil now, you will always wonder "what could have been". You can always get fed up with the mess and join team sand later should you choose to 😉 The entry fee is quite moderate compared to soil 😁
Hope this was unhelpful 😘


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## plantnoobdude (21 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> . I am now less then a month from getting my new tank


Exciting!


FISHnLAB said:


> Thanks for all of your help PND, it


Absolutely no problem, gives me something to do when bored and helping others is just a bonus🤣


FISHnLAB said:


> seams like the large pellets would be easy to vacuum or one


in the end no, aquasoil just traps detritus and overtime unless you’re running lowlight it becomes troublesome. With fine sand the detritus stays on top and you can vacuum it later.




Hufsa said:


> They also naturally break down over time and with disturbances like uprooting and replanting, adding greatly to


This!
When I used to rescape my tank with aquasoil I needed to do it over several days, since the cloudiness was so bad and visibility was about 0. 


_Maq_ said:


> Do they exist any "heavy root feeders"? Strong roots do not indicate any 'preference' for root feeding. Strong roots are an adaptation:
> (1) to get attached to the bottom in a strong current, or
> (2) to take up CO2 through roots, or
> (3) to reach nutrients in nutrient-poor environment, or
> ...


Wonderful post!


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## dw1305 (22 Oct 2022)

Hi all,


_Maq_ said:


> I'm not surprised at all that your Eriocaulons do better in silica sand, they live in oligotrophic waters.


I think this is a very valid point, we wouldn't try and grow Orchids and Tomatoes in <"the same conditions">, so why should "_one size fits all_" work for aquatic plants?


dw1305 said:


> ....... I'm not interested in "maximal" or "optimal", I want sustainable stability.
> Low nutrient levels give you stability, as an analogy you can think of this as the orchid, bromeliad, fern, succulent or alpine growing approach, it is aimed at growing plants with low potential growth rates in nutrient poor conditions.
> On my allotment I add fertilisers and do a lot of weeding. In the garden I practice nutrient deprivation on lawns, borders and pond, the outcome of this is that I don't do any weeding and only occasionally have to mow the lawn.....


If I wanted to grow a lot of <"_Cyperus papyrus_ quickly">, or grow a <"_Victoria amazonica_ Water-lily from seed">? Then I would use a <"nutritious substrate, "reef bright" lighting and all the heat"> I could find. This is what @plantbrain (Tom Barr) <"says">.


plantbrain said:


> Adding ferts into the sediment is a no brainer. Many balk at ADA aqua soil, but it's just rice paddy clay, we have hectares of it. In pot test I did at the lab, the ADA did the same as the Clay loam rice paddy soil with 4 weedy aquatic species. My old reservation is having 2 layers of sediment, I just do not like that part, but many are fine with it. I can wiggle my way around that by using ADA AS in a non CO2 tank also though


It is like @Tim Harrison shows in his <"The Soil Substrate or Dirted Planted Tank - A How to Guide"> or Diana Walstad in the <"Ecology of the Planted Aquarium"> a nutrient rich substrate can offer real advantages if you want a successful tank quickly.


_Maq_ said:


> ..... Unfortunately, I haven't arrived at any conclusive results. With one important exception: I consider easily degradable organic matter a clear mistake, a serious drawback of many so called 'aquasoils'.
> If you establish a tank with clean sand, it gets enriched with detritus within a few weeks. That's about it. I've tried to enhance it, but without noticeable results....


Same for me, <"a low nutrient substrate"> and then leave it alone. It isn't very exciting, but it gives you <"long term stability">. 

I know <"I've linked it in before"> but this is what Stephan Tanner says <"Aquarium Biofiltration - SWISSTROPICALS">.

cheers Darrel


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## MichaelJ (22 Oct 2022)

Wookii said:


> I'm a sand convert too!







..and here is a recent picture of the sand people... From left to right; I believe its @Hufsa @Wookii and @plantnoobdude.

Cheers,
Michael


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## Nont (22 Oct 2022)

Here is my reaction reading you guys talk about sand. My last tank fail because of it, and apparently Anakin was right.


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## MichaelJ (22 Oct 2022)

Nont said:


> My last tank fail because of it


_..Sand People are easily startled, but they'll soon be back, and in greater numbers. - Obi-Wan_


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## Witcher (22 Oct 2022)

I like how this thread @FISHnLAB started has turned from question about yet another commercial "golden solution" to very informative thread about one of the cheapest (if not free at all) alternatives - simply a sand. You guys are amazing!


MichaelJ said:


> _..Sand People are easily startled, but they'll soon be back, and in greater numbers. - Obi-Wan_


...music intensifies...


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## FISHnLAB (22 Oct 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Imma chime in again since I am a card-carrying member of Team Sand 😆


Thanks Hufsa, your posts are always so helpful and this one may be the best one yet, super helpful👍. 


Hufsa said:


> Although I still think you could/should go for Aquasoil on your first time for reasons I have mentioned before, and get it out of your system so to speak. I might offend some if I refer to soil as training wheels in this instance, so I wont 😜


Lol, training wheels🤣.


Hufsa said:


> The soil will buffer mistakes in dosing and keep the plant fed in both ends though, its just a pain to deal with it.


This is not a problem as I am super anal/OCD, and enjoy dosing daily. I also have a healthy supply of root tabs. 


Hufsa said:


> The main problem the way I see it is that while the granules are large, they are not particularly sturdy and do not take kindly to being "handled" much at all. Pretty much any activity is going to knock loose soil particles from the soil balls, because aquarium soil is basically just lightly hardened black dirt balls. So they produce a lot of tiny dirt particles. Every time you uproot a plant there will be either a small or a very large cloud of dirt coming up with it depending on how much root the plant has and your technique. What some of the pros dont show much of is how dirty this process is, some have a separate canister filter they fill with floss just to vacuum up this cloud of dirt when they need to pull out a plant group. And a water change right after (if you dont already run a hose out right while youre uprooting) is pretty much mandatory because its not just visible particles that come up, but invisible substances as well like ammonia. And since the soil particles are quite large, debris easily falls deep into the substrate instead of going to a prefilter where its more easily removed. Letting it stay there is not usually recommend for a nosebleed CO2 high tech tank that needs to avoid organics and algae at all costs. So you need to regularly get the debris out again without actually agitating the soil granules too much. They also naturally break down over time and with disturbances like uprooting and replanting, adding greatly to the dark brown cloud that comes up when vacuuming. If you need to pull up more than a few groups of plants your visibility might get closer to zero, which is a bit of a pain when replanting. I tore up my year+ of undisturbed sand a little while ago, and while there were a light amount of particles, there wasn't nearly as much as there would have been from just a few months in a soil tank. Lastly the soil doesn't retain its properties forever, and depending on how hard you drive your tank to grow, you could see yourself needing to replenish the soil with root tabs or adding new soil sooner than you might imagine.


All good information thank you. It definitely sounds like more of a pain then I had imagined. In fact, I had wrongly assumed aquasoil would be best for frequent uprooting(a property I really would like). I was definitely wrong and now see that gravel, coarse sand, and fine sand are probably all better for this. I definitely have some thinking to do... 😔


Hufsa said:


> Theres no denying the indications we have seen so far that some plants seem to prefer being fed both with root and leaf.


Yes, I adhere to this belief(without any first had experience that is). I definitely plan to use a combination of column and root fertilization at least until my first hand experience dictates otherwise. 


Hufsa said:


> Some people like the added challenge of growing in inert to get "the direct feedback from the plants on dosing" and for the added challenge (plantnoobdude).


I definitely am not there yet. I plan to use EI methodology at first and may one day get there though. 


Hufsa said:


> Some use inert because they are quite lazy and very stubborn and want to do things their own way (me).


Well, that is definitely me😊. I just haven't had enough experience yet to find "my way". 


Hufsa said:


> Youve got to find what works for you, but the way i see it youre really keen to get "this thing" perfect on the first try, and i wonder if you dont go for soil now, you will always wonder "what could have been".


You are right on the mark Hufsa. That is entirely possible and I thank you for bringing this possibility to my attention. I am kind of operating from a... Do as much research as possible, buy the best I can afford, and design the best thought out system I can so if I fail it is all on me angle. That said, you guys are making me serious consider whether aquasoil is the right choice for me. It's hard to not look at all of your, and others in the threads, experience and the fact that you all moved on from aquasoil. That you evolved past it and still have nice tanks with less trouble and silt lol. 


Hufsa said:


> You can always get fed up with the mess and join team sand later should you choose to 😉


I will definitely be joining team sand at some point as I have a need/want to try different substrates for my own wisdom. That said, you are serious making me consider trying first before aquasoil or maybe even a combination of the two(think AS in the back and sand in the foreground).


Hufsa said:


> The entry fee is quite moderate compared to soil 😁


Yes, it sure is. I'm looking at several hundred dollars to fill my new tank with it. It's not hard to want to look at other option lol. 


Hufsa said:


> Hope this was unhelpful 😘


Maybe more helpful then any post I have ever read on this topic. So helpful. I appreciate it so much. You and others are really helping me wade through the weeds so to speak and hopefully get to a winning setup without making so many mistakes and taking much time to gain wisdom. I can't thank you enough🙂.


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## FISHnLAB (22 Oct 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Exciting!


Extremely, this plan started nearly 4 months ago so it's been a long time coming. I can't wait! 😁


plantnoobdude said:


> Absolutely no problem, gives me something to do when bored and helping others is just a bonus🤣


It's really appreciated, thank you again👍. 


plantnoobdude said:


> in the end no, aquasoil just traps detritus and overtime unless you’re running lowlight it becomes troublesome. With fine sand the detritus stays on top and you can vacuum it later.


Good to know. 


plantnoobdude said:


> This!
> When I used to rescape my tank with aquasoil I needed to do it over several days, since the cloudiness was so bad and visibility was about 0.


That is not cool. I really thought it was less trouble than this. 


plantnoobdude said:


> Wonderful post!


Yes, I am so glad she posted it. It was immensely helpful and has really given me some hard thinking to do.


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## FISHnLAB (22 Oct 2022)

Witcher said:


> I like how this thread @FISHnLAB started has turned from question about yet another commercial "golden solution" to very informative thread about one of the cheapest (if not free at all) alternatives - simply a sand. You guys are amazing!
> 
> ...music intensifies...



I too am happy with how this thread has evolved. It really has me thinking about my plan.


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## KirstyF (22 Oct 2022)

I have both aquasoil and sand in my main tank and have plants thriving in both.

The one thing I will say (having learned from experience) is that if you do both then spend as much time and effort as it takes creating a clear separation (with hardscape, bits of rock and planting etc) and plug your holes thoroughly, especially if you are going to bank the substrate up.!

As I have both shrimp (who love re-arranging aquasoil) and SAE’s (who do super charged rocket stuff just above ground level) I’m not sure I ever had much chance of keeping the two separated but still…..I would do a lot more work on this next time around.

The aquasoil on my sand drives me nuts and I have to siphon some off on every single water change. 

And also here, as an example:
This is my shrimp/snail tank. It’s not designed to be pretty, hasn’t been properly scaped (yet) and I don’t bother tidying up….but look at all this soil. (The hoards have just been fed - snails everywhere 😂) 




And yet the only aquasoil in the tank is up behind these rocks so very well tucked away. (I thought) 




This tank has never had a single plant uprooted in it. Either the snails are re-landscaping 😂 or the movement of soil is pretty much entirely down to the shrimpy inhabitants. 

So just be aware that a mix can become a mix….more than you would like it to. 😊


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## Hufsa (22 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Thanks Hufsa, your posts are always so helpful and this one may be the best one yet, super helpful👍


Ah im glad it didnt just come across as a lengthy doomsday-esque ramble about the naughty black spheres 


FISHnLAB said:


> This is not a problem as I am super anal/OCD, and enjoy dosing daily.


I did get this impression 😆 Dont worry there are more of us so youre in good company 😅 The key is not letting it take over completely



FISHnLAB said:


> It definitely sounds like more of a pain then I had imagined. In fact, I had wrongly assumed aquasoil would be best for frequent uprooting(a property I really would like).


Yes this was one of the points I wanted to clarify so you didnt get a big surprise later on, inert substrates are superior for uprooting stuff with minimal mess, thats just a fact.
While I dont really participate a lot in the hardcore aquascaping side of the hobby, I have noticed that a lot of beginners are quite surprised to discover aspects of the hobby that do not get touched on much at all by the quite glossy images and videos that are found on youtube, instagram etc. Theres a very large amount of pictures of beautiful plants and scapes, and very little of dirt and grime, stunted or unhappy plants with the confused aquarist, unexpected algae outbreaks and various other stuff. I think it doesnt help the matter that a 30 minute long video of someone scrubbing pipes and hoses while cursing under their breath doesnt make for quite as captivating viewing as beautiful pearling plants and shoaling fish.



FISHnLAB said:


> You are right on the mark Hufsa. That is entirely possible and I thank you for bringing this possibility to my attention. I am kind of operating from a... Do as much research as possible, buy the best I can afford, and design the best thought out system I can so if I fail it is all on me angle. That said, you guys are making me serious consider whether aquasoil is the right choice for me. It's hard to not look at all of your, and others in the threads, experience and the fact that you all moved on from aquasoil. That you evolved past it and still have nice tanks with less trouble and silt lol.


Since I am hoping your first high tech tank turns out the way you want it to and that you get to enjoy this hobby for many years to come, I feel like I should warn you about something.
I have seen a fair amount of times that the ones who do the most prep work and have the highest expectations for their brand new high tech tank, are the ones who take it the absolutely hardest when something goes either a little or very wrong with their new tank. Sort of like the higher up you are the harder the fall will be. Some people get really lucky, have a minimally painful maturation phase and glide smoothly past all the obstacles that life can throw at a tank. But the majority will run into some problem or another. Many tanks will have at least one or two types of algae that their system is prone to getting. Being prepared for "sh*t to hit the fan" at some point, may help with the shock when the high tech tank that was many months of planning and saving, many hours of scaping, gluing and planting, slowly but surely starts deviating from the proceedings outlined by all the youtube videos. Im not saying it 100% will happen to you, but it makes it a bit easier if you know about it in advance.



FISHnLAB said:


> I will definitely be joining team sand at some point as I have a need/want to try different substrates for my own wisdom. That said, you are serious making me consider trying first before aquasoil


Thats one of the things I like the most about this hobby, to try out different approaches and methods and see which ones work for me and my tank. I think you will enjoy it a lot too, theres a lot of different branches of the hobby to deep dive into 
While we have a few sand users participating in this thread, the majority of aquascapers and planted tank keepers do use aquasoil or some sort of enriched substrate as you already know. Many scapers are more interested in creating the scape that they envision in their minds, and arent necessarily interested in knowing more about fertilizer, growing rare or difficult plants, or getting really deep into all of the aspects of how a tank works. For them aquasoil and some sort of well known premade fertilizer is what makes the most sense, so they can spend less time on growing plants and more time on shaping the scape into how they want it to be. They usually trim off the top of the plants more than they uproot and replant the tops, the former technique is easier, takes less time and makes less of a mess substrate wise. But a group of stemplants can only be trimmed so many times until the old growth starts to deteriorate too much, and uprooting and replanting to restart the group is needed.
Some stemplants do not tolerate or tolerate poorly to be trimmed from the top. These need to be uprooted every time and length trimmed from the bottom. Aquascapers dont usually use these species of plants, probably because its too much hassle. Keep in mind that many pro aquascapes only run for less than a year before being taken down and rescaped. Usually this means that they are broken down before the soil becomes too depleted or silty.
Dutch aquascapes are a notably different kind, here very minimal hardscape is used, and the focus is on growing an underwater garden of plants growing to their fullest potential. Uprooting is much more common in this style, and here sand or fine gravel substrates becomes more common, and I dont think it is by chance.



FISHnLAB said:


> or maybe even a combination of the two(think AS in the back and sand in the foreground).


Basically what @KirstyF said. Sand and soil is commonly done, and commonly complained about  They just really want to mix together!



FISHnLAB said:


> Yes, it sure is. I'm looking at several hundred dollars to fill my new tank with it. It's not hard to want to look at other option lol.


Dang in that case sand looks a lot stronger of an option.. especially since you are having such trouble sourcing non-crappy options for soil.
Im actually not a convert to sand, I have used sand all along (unlike some of these pretenders 😏  jk ) but experimented with using soil in pots to see if there was difference in growth.
With being used to sand from before, I was very unimpressed with how little handling aquasoil could take, and how messy it was.
But I have never run a high tech tank with all soil, that needs to be clear.
I personally dislike the look of aquasoil as well, but I have thought about eventually switching my tank over to aquasoil contained in something and capped with sand.
But the more I try to work out how to do it the more annoyed I become with the concept, I would want the roots to be able to reach the soil, but the soil must absolutely not come up through the sand, and the plants I keep frequently need uprooting. So I am actually thinking right now I might stay with only sand indefinitely. Our dearest @Wookii  is going with something-or-other capped with sand on his new spaceship tank, so I was thinking I would wait and see how it goes for him.
One pro about going with sand first in your case would be the much lower cost upfront.



FISHnLAB said:


> Maybe more helpful then any post I have ever read on this topic. So helpful. I appreciate it so much. You and others are really helping me wade through the weeds so to speak and hopefully get to a winning setup without making so many mistakes and taking much time to gain wisdom. I can't thank you enough🙂.


Gosh you'll make us all blush 😊

I *cant* tell you definitely that you will be able to grow every species of plant in plain sand. I dont have the experience or the evidence to support such a claim.
Also, while I have many years of experience using sand in a fish tank (closing in on 20 years now[Edit] forgot about a ~5 year hiatus, so make that ~15 years), I have only a couple years of experience in seriously growing plants, and the step to CO2 injected I took only just february this year. I will also say im not super good at it yet, I grow some things ok but some are still a struggle and I still have a few algae issues  So definitely not a super pro like Dennis Wong etc. Basically I dont want you to give my words more weight than they deserve. Plantnoobdude is a much better source for which plants can grow in plain sand, hes got a couple of species going that I still struggle with figuring out. He's also a dirty cheater who uses RO water 😁, which may or may not make things a bit easier (jury is still out).

The con for you going with sand right off the bat would be that you are thrown right into the deep end if you decide you want to keep all the difficult stemplant species.
Especially within the family of plants Lythraceae there are some plants that seem to struggle a lot with being fed only through the leaf.
If you havent read the thread called Rotala kill tank yet then boy, grab something to drink and a snack and cancel all of your upcoming appointments 
Im quite sure you are up to the challenge personally, but there is no guarantee that the result will be satisfactory to you, if that makes sense.
Im optimistic about being able to grow all my plant species "flawlessly" in sand eventually, but I dont know for absolutely sure if I will get there with all of them, and I wont make any promises to anyone else.
I really enjoy trying to figure it out though, which is why I dont mind a bit of struggle along the way


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## FISHnLAB (24 Oct 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Ah im glad it didnt just come across as a lengthy doomsday-esque ramble about the naughty black spheres


Lol, no no it was good info. 


Hufsa said:


> I did get this impression 😆 Dont worry there are more of us so youre in good company 😅 The key is not letting it take over completely


Lol, good to know. I'll try😂. 


Hufsa said:


> Yes this was one of the points I wanted to clarify so you didnt get a big surprise later on, inert substrates are superior for uprooting stuff with minimal mess, thats just a fact.


Yes, thank you for clarification👍. 


Hufsa said:


> While I dont really participate a lot in the hardcore aquascaping side of the hobby, I have noticed that a lot of beginners are quite surprised to discover aspects of the hobby that do not get touched on much at all by the quite glossy images and videos that are found on youtube, instagram etc. Theres a very large amount of pictures of beautiful plants and scapes, and very little of dirt and grime, stunted or unhappy plants with the confused aquarist, unexpected algae outbreaks and various other stuff. I think it doesnt help the matter that a 30 minute long video of someone scrubbing pipes and hoses while cursing under their breath doesnt make for quite as captivating viewing as beautiful pearling plants and shoaling fish.


Yes, I didn't fall into this trap but, camnsee how one easily can. It is detrimental to the industry so someone at Aquashella or one of the shows should tank to some of the big YTers and remind them that it is important to address how complicated this hobby can be and that it takes a lot of work and effort to even obtain a quarter of what most of them achieve. Success is definitely possible but, I think it takes a special type of person that is a bit of a spounge for learning and information as well as quite scientifically adept. That and maybe a healthy dose of OCD😂. 


Hufsa said:


> Since I am hoping your first high tech tank turns out the way you want it to and that you get to enjoy this hobby for many years to come, I feel like I should warn you about something.
> I have seen a fair amount of times that the ones who do the most prep work and have the highest expectations for their brand new high tech tank, are the ones who take it the absolutely hardest when something goes either a little or very wrong with their new tank. Sort of like the higher up you are the harder the fall will be. Some people get really lucky, have a minimally painful maturation phase and glide smoothly past all the obstacles that life can throw at a tank. But the majority will run into some problem or another. Many tanks will have at least one or two types of algae that their system is prone to getting. Being prepared for "sh*t to hit the fan" at some point, may help with the shock when the high tech tank that was many months of planning and saving, many hours of scaping, gluing and planting, slowly but surely starts deviating from the proceedings outlined by all the youtube videos. Im not saying it 100% will happen to you, but it makes it a bit easier if you know about it in advance.


Yes, thank you for the warning. I am prepared for failure although strive hard in life to do the opposite so it's never an easy pill to swallow. Luckily these 8 small tanks I am currently propagating/experimenting with are teaching me a lot about just how hard this is. I can see that although I am a fast learner at even very technical things, this one is gonna take a while... Maybe years or likely even decades...That said, I am going to succeed in a shorter time then most!😁... 


Hufsa said:


> Thats one of the things I like the most about this hobby, to try out different approaches and methods and see which ones work for me and my tank. I think you will enjoy it a lot too, theres a lot of different branches of the hobby to deep dive into


Yes, there sure is. I am loving it so far and hope it gives me many years of learning and enjoyment. 


Hufsa said:


> While we have a few sand users participating in this thread, the majority of aquascapers and planted tank keepers do use aquasoil or some sort of enriched substrate as you already know. Many scapers are more interested in creating the scape that they envision in their minds, and arent necessarily interested in knowing more about fertilizer, growing rare or difficult plants, or getting really deep into all of the aspects of how a tank works. For them aquasoil and some sort of well known premade fertilizer is what makes the most sense, so they can spend less time on growing plants and more time on shaping the scape into how they want it to be. They usually trim off the top of the plants more than they uproot and replant the tops, the former technique is easier, takes less time and makes less of a mess substrate wise. But a group of stemplants can only be trimmed so many times until the old growth starts to deteriorate too much, and uprooting and replanting to restart the group is needed.
> Some stemplants do not tolerate or tolerate poorly to be trimmed from the top. These need to be uprooted every time and length trimmed from the bottom. Aquascapers dont usually use these species of plants, probably because its too much hassle. Keep in mind that many pro aquascapes only run for less than a year before being taken down and rescaped. Usually this means that they are broken down before the soil becomes too depleted or silty. Dutch aquascapes are a notably different kind, here very minimal hardscape is used, and the focus is on growing an underwater garden of plants growing to their fullest potential. Uprooting is much more common in this style, and here sand or fine gravel substrates becomes more common, and I dont think it is by chance.


I'm not sure where I fall yet and may try all different genres but, for now I think I am somewhere in the middle. Thanks for the added info on stems👍. I really like stems so far so there will be a lot of different species of them in my new tank. 


Hufsa said:


> Basically what @KirstyF said. Sand and soil is commonly done, and commonly complained about  They just really want to mix together!


I may have a solution. And, I started a test yesterday to see how it works. I'll start a post about it after this one... 


Hufsa said:


> Dang in that case sand looks a lot stronger of an option.. especially since you are having such trouble sourcing non-crappy options for soil.


Yes, I am definitely considering all options. The shipping is quite high on most AS too. 


Hufsa said:


> Im actually not a convert to sand, I have used sand all along (unlike some of these pretenders 😏  jk )


🤣


Hufsa said:


> but experimented with using soil in pots to see if there was difference in growth.
> With being used to sand from before, I was very unimpressed with how little handling aquasoil could take, and how messy it was.
> But I have never run a high tech tank with all soil, that needs to be clear.


Roger that. Your experience is still very much appreciated however. 


Hufsa said:


> I personally dislike the look of aquasoil as well, but I have thought about eventually switching my tank over to aquasoil contained in something and capped with sand.
> But the more I try to work out how to do it the more annoyed I become with the concept, I would want the roots to be able to reach the soil, but the soil must absolutely not come up through the sand, and the plants I keep frequently need uprooting. So I am actually thinking right now I might stay with only sand indefinitely.


See below post... 


Hufsa said:


> Our dearest @Wookii  is going with something-or-other capped with sand on his new spaceship tank, so I was thinking I would wait and see how it goes for him.


Interesting. I will try and watch too. 


Hufsa said:


> One pro about going with sand first in your case would be the much lower cost upfront.


Yes, especially if I went with Play Sand. I can get 25KG bags of heat sterilized, screened washed play sand for less then $10CAD(7.37EUR) a 5 minute drive for my house lol. The only problem is I really don't want an oligotrophic look on my first build. I am somewhat hell bent on grey or black sand. This means my easiest options are BDBS, Seachem Flourite Black Sand or Onyx Sand. I will see if I can source any other options should I decide to go with sand. 


Hufsa said:


> Gosh you'll make us all blush 😊
> 
> I *cant* tell you definitely that you will be able to grow every species of plant in plain sand. I dont have the experience or the evidence to support such a claim. Also, while I have many years of experience using sand in a fish tank (closing in on 20 years now), I have only a couple years of experience in seriously growing plants, and the step to CO2 injected I took only just february this year. I will also say im not super good at it yet, I grow some things ok but some are still a struggle and I still have a few algae issues  So definitely not a super pro like Dennis Wong etc. Basically I dont want you to give my words more weight than they deserve.


Thanks for the transparency but, I still think your experience/wisdom is very valid. I will continue to draw on it if you don't mind😁... 


Hufsa said:


> Plantnoobdude is a much better source for which plants can grow in plain sand, hes got a couple of species going that I still struggle with figuring out. He's also a dirty cheater who uses RO water 😁,


🤣


Hufsa said:


> which may or may not make things a bit easier (jury is still out.


Yes, he is being super helpful as well and I am going to check out more of his threads eventually. I am finding the Journals of great value. I hope you don't mind but, I am slowly reading through your "consistently deficiency" one now. 


Hufsa said:


> The con for you going with sand right off the bat would be that you are thrown right into the deep end if you decide you want to keep all the difficult stemplant species.


I do but, I may have a compromise. 


Hufsa said:


> Especially within the family of plants Lythraceae there are some plants that seem to struggle a lot with being fed only through the leaf.
> If you havent read the thread called Rotala kill tank yet then boy, grab something to drink and a snack and cancel all of your upcoming appointments


I will have to check it out. There isn't enough time in the day to read all of this stuff though so it's going to take me some time to digest.


Hufsa said:


> Im quite sure you are up to the challenge personally, but there is no guarantee that the result will be satisfactory to you, if that makes sense.
> Im optimistic about being able to grow all my plant species "flawlessly" in sand eventually, but I dont know for absolutely sure if I will get there with all of them, and I wont make any promises to anyone else.
> I really enjoy trying to figure it out though, which is why I dont mind a bit of struggle along the way


Yes, I too love learning and adapting to issues. Sometimes I purposely dive into something without adequate research just to make things more of a challenge. This hobby may be a little much for that style though😋.


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## FISHnLAB (24 Oct 2022)

So, I needed to replant one of my propagation tanks(a glasslock) as some of the plants needed topping and I had been neglecting it causing a bit of algae. It was stocked with Rotala Rotundifolia, Rotala Green, Helanthium Tenellus Green, Taxiphyllum "Spiky Moss", and Vesicularia Ferriei "Weeping Moss". Pic was a while back before it grew up...




So, I wanted to try the 24 coarse mesh bags I recently bought to use for the eco-complete space filler under the main layer of aquasoil(my original substrate plan)...



I went to a local store and bought a large vase(maybe 2 gallon+) for dirt cheap...



I have a small bag of German made Clay Hydro Balls for a terrestrial plant I have and decided to use them for the test. They were also dirt cheap...






I added them to a mesh bag and tucked it in the bottom of the vase. I used black but, put some in a white one for the pic...






Then I added the soil, infused with 3 NilocG Thrive Root Tabs, and planted...






Here are the results. I used small suction cups to secure a bunch of each moss too either side. Now I will let it grow...









So, if this works out well I am about 90% sure this will be my Substrate plan for the new big tank...

I will fill these bags with aquasoil and root tabs and line the bottom of the tank with them. Then, I will add sand over top. The roots should be able to easily grow through the coarse holes in the bags, into the infused aquasoil, and when I uproot, it shouldn't pull any(or at least very little) soil out with it. To recharge I will use a thickened liquid fert solution, that I design, injected into the high CEC aquasoil with a large medical syringe at regular intervals. Or, just push root tabs on to the top of the bags should work too.

What do you guys think of this plan?


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## FISHnLAB (24 Oct 2022)

There, sorry I had some trouble adding all of the pictures.


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## Hufsa (24 Oct 2022)

Ive had a long day today so ive probably just missed it, can you explain what was the link between the leca/hydroton pebbles and the future aquasoil?
It sounds like a solid plan, get a good 6+ cm of sand to plant in and enjoy the benefits of, and then some enriched soil on the bottom for the roots to get into 😊 
You definitely need to start a journal for the big tank, I will be watching closely to see how the substrate performs 😁
What are the hole size of the mesh bags you got there?
I know Tropica soil (standard version) is about 2-3mm grains, so I would aim for bags with about 1mm diameter holes or a bit less in that case


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## FISHnLAB (24 Oct 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Ive had a long day today so ive probably just missed it, can you explain what was the link between the leca/hydroton pebbles and the future aquasoil?


Yeah, sorry I should have been more clear. I just used the clay balls in place of the aquasoil(and as a space filler in the vase) as I don't have any aquasoil and didn't want to buy a $50 bag of Fluval Stratum(the only aquasoil available in my town) just for the test. The clay balls still have a bit of CEC and are dirt cheap. This should allow me to see how the root growth permeates the mesh bags but, not allow me to see the actual effect with aquasoil. I used Seachem Flourite Black Gravel also as that's what I had in hand. If I do go with this plan, I will use sand in place of the gravel(maybe just Flourite BLACK Sand).


Hufsa said:


> It sounds like a solid plan, get a good 6+ cm of sand to plant in and enjoy the benefits of, and then some enriched soil on the bottom for the roots to get into 😊


Yes mam, I plan to go on the deep side as with all of my tanks now I am a bit too shallow(partly on purpose as they are so small). Do you think 3 inches of sand with 1 inch of aquasoil underneath is excessive? Would 2 inches of sand and 1 inch of AS be enough? Or, half and half? Total depth recommendation?


Hufsa said:


> You definitely need to start a journal for the big tank, I will be watching closely to see how the substrate performs 😁


Definitely. I will start a Journal as soon as my new tank arrives. But, I warn you, I will really be taking my time with this one so it will be months before I even plant. I plan to get most of the tank accessories on Black Friday sales so I won't even have the canister or plumbing until early December. I am then going to build the scape and do a dark start. After the tank is cycled I will order plants, drain tank, and plant. After a few months, or when I feel comfortable with the plant growth and stability, I will then add a large number of fish including a diverse cleanup crew. At least that is the plan now but, it is evolving as I learn.


Hufsa said:


> What are the hole size of the mesh bags you got there?


Approximately 2mm on the long side of the oval...





Hufsa said:


> I know Tropica soil (standard version) is about 2-3mm grains, so I would aim for bags with about 1mm diameter holes or a bit less in that case


Not sure what I am going to use yet soil wise but, I want to keep the holes on the large side for effortless root growth and syringe penetration if I go that route. Im probably going to go with one of the cheaper aquasoil options as I don't think it needs to be very durable for this application. It's basically being used as a nutrient spounge and will never be disturbed other then the odd careful uprooting. If I have to I will get mesh bags with smaller holes(there are very limited options with the coarse ones and most are too fine) but, I would rather use these as I have 23 of them left and already spent the money.

Although not the highest quality option normally, I am thinking Fluval Stratum might be the best option for me in this application. It is the cheapest option, I can get it at a store 3 minutes from my house, it has an on the larger side 3-5mm grain size so it should work in the mesh bags I have now, and it still has a pretty good CEC so should work great as a slow release nutrient spounge. What ya think?


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## FISHnLAB (24 Oct 2022)

KirstyF said:


> I have both aquasoil and sand in my main tank and have plants thriving in both.


Thank you for the detailed post, it is appreciated👍. 


KirstyF said:


> The one thing I will say (having learned from experience) is that if you do both then spend as much time and effort as it takes creating a clear separation (with hardscape, bits of rock and planting etc) and plug your holes thoroughly, especially if you are going to bank the substrate up.!


Thanks, I definitely see it can be challenging to keep it seperated.


KirstyF said:


> As I have both shrimp (who love re-arranging aquasoil) and SAE’s (who do super charged rocket stuff just above ground level) I’m not sure I ever had much chance of keeping the two separated but still…..I would do a lot more work on this next time around.


Lol, yeah it's harder when you have the kids throwing a tantrum😂. 


KirstyF said:


> The aquasoil on my sand drives me nuts and I have to siphon some off on every single water change.


Yes, it would drive me nuts too. Definitely a pain if it's gets away eh. 


KirstyF said:


> And also here, as an example:
> This is my shrimp/snail tank. It’s not designed to be pretty, hasn’t been properly scaped (yet) and I don’t bother tidying up….but look at all this soil. (The hoards have just been fed - snails everywhere 😂)
> View attachment 196140


Yeah, definitely not the nest look and probably quite a bit of work to fix all of the time.


KirstyF said:


> And yet the only aquasoil in the tank is up behind these rocks so very well tucked away. (I thought)
> View attachment 196141


Crazy,it sure gets around lol. 


KirstyF said:


> This tank has never had a single plant uprooted in it. Either the snails are re-landscaping 😂 or the movement of soil is pretty much entirely down to the shrimpy inhabitants.
> 
> So just be aware that a mix can become a mix….more than you would like it to. 😊


Good to know, thanks for the heads up👍.


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## FISHnLAB (31 Oct 2022)

Well, my decision is made guys. Fluval had a big sale on so I snagged the last 5 x 8.8lb bags of Stratum in town. Got a killer deal that even got better when the store employee ripped one bag and gave me an additional 15% off(in addition to the 20% off already). Any other aquasoil would have cost me much more and required shipping so it was an easy decision. That and it will just be used as a nutrient spounge under sand anyway. 

In other news, I have decided to replace my annoyingly small 3 gallon with a 60cm(16 gallon) in addition to the new 90cm(49.1 gallon). So, I'm getting rid of everything and will just be running the 2 tanks going forward. 

The 60 will be the new home for my Dragon Scale Plakat Betta and Zebra Nerite Snail and will likely see some new additions like maybe some Cory's and Tetras. It will stay low tech planted with mainly easy and medium class plants. 

The 90 will be a fully stocked community tank with CO2, all the fixings, and many harder to grow plants.

Both will use matching Fluval canisters that I snagged for a great deal today with the aquasoil...


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