# Shoalling non jumpers



## Jaap (24 Jan 2016)

Hi

Any suggestions for shoalling fish that are non jumpers for an 80L open top tank? They should not eat shrimp either.

Thanks


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## DRG93 (25 Jan 2016)

Ember Tetras
Neon Tetra
Mosquito Rasboras

Pygmy Corys are good and tiny shoaling fish that tend to stay at the bottom of the tank.


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## dw1305 (25 Jan 2016)

Hi all,





DRG93 said:


> Pygmy Corys


Another vote for Pygmy Corys.

cheers Darrel


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## James O (25 Jan 2016)

Pygmy Corey's are cool

Any of the boraras will be excellent (http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/search/Boraras)


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## Jaap (25 Jan 2016)

Are the boraras safe for an open top tank?


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## James O (25 Jan 2016)

Never had a problem. They spend 90% of their time in the middle & bottom of the tank. They occasionally frolic in the flow around the top of the tank.


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## darren636 (25 Jan 2016)

Jaap said:


> Are the boraras safe for an open top tank?



They will jump if its dark and you turn the lights on


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## Jaap (25 Jan 2016)

My filter is quite strong since its a high tech tank. 1000 l/h in a 90L tank. Will they have a problem?


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## darren636 (25 Jan 2016)

Jaap said:


> My filter is quite strong since its a high tech tank. 1000 l/h in a 90L tank. Will they have a problem?




High flow is exactly what boraras don't like.

They live in tea stained puddles
With no flow , very dim light and zero nutrients .
I can't really imagine a worse environment for any boraras.


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## Jaap (25 Jan 2016)

So its a no go 

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## darren636 (25 Jan 2016)

Jaap said:


> So its a no go
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


Its your tank

But there's got to be a more suited fish.

I used to have 30 brigittae in my high tech, but they hated it.

Microdevario would be  better.
They really don't care about anything and are much better swimmers, much stronger.
But will jump when spooked.


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## Jaap (25 Jan 2016)

I wouldn't want to house fish that would be unhappy so Brigittae would not be my choice. Microdevario are also nice but if they jump when spooked then I wouldn't want that either 

I am not picky when it comes to looks but I would like not to kill or stress my fish for sure 

So maybe something different?


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## Manu (25 Jan 2016)

Hi Jaap,

I would go with embers. They don't look great in the shops but once they are happy they have a beautiful color that works great in a planted tank. They don't mind the flow, they actually seem to love it. If I change the angle of the spray bar, they come and check the new flow, and when filling up the tank with a watering can they go right underneath the rose  They are very curious fish and although smaller than the cardinals they are not so shy.
As you can, I really recommend those!

Cheers,
Manu 

Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk


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## darren636 (25 Jan 2016)

I agree with manu

embers must weigh about 5 x more than a boraras and look to be   a stronger, tougher fish.
Plus, they are gems in their own right.
I've never had them though


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## Jaap (25 Jan 2016)

Do they jump?

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## Manu (25 Jan 2016)

Jaap said:


> Do they jump?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


I never had one jumping out of the tank and I have the water just one centimetre below the top of the glass. Just given them plenty of plants, and if possible keep an area with dimed light using floating plants or Valisneria/Aponogeton.

Cheers,
Manu 

Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk


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## Tim Harrison (25 Jan 2016)

Embers are amongst the least jumpy fish I've kept.
A couple more are...
http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/hemigrammus-rhodostomus/
http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/trigonostigma-espei/


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## mort (25 Jan 2016)

I had lamb chop harlequins as mentioned above and on the first night when the light went out, they got spooked and jumped. The room was still pretty light so shouldn't have shocked them too much. However the problem is the tank was above my reef tank and the five that jumped went straight into it. I managed to catch them all before my marine beta got any and I have have them today, several years later. They no longer jump so I guess I'm saying that even fish you don't expect to jump can, at least until they are settle, so it's sometimes worth covering the tank for a few days until they settle down.


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## James O (25 Jan 2016)

On the jumping theme would sunrise/sunset lightings and maybe moonlights help?


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## zozo (25 Jan 2016)

If you google for any schooling fish sp. which dwels mid and top range of the tank. you'll read nothing but how well they can jump.  Lots of poeple had this experience, i guess in majority the fish are not to blame..

Of course all fish can jump and some times the risk of any sp. eventualy will one time.. i've had an Ember jump, a Black Tetra jump and even an Oto jump. The black tetra was the only lucky one jumping in my lap.. An educated guess, fish that by nature stay at the surface region of the tank are most likely to do so, after all the are closed to the surface (Like danio's). Others, mid and bottom region only when triggered by external factors. One is already given and that is bang lights on full power from total darknes..  Other factors could be other agressive fish chasing each other and scaring the others.

Take a look at Amono's galery, nothing but open top tanks and loads of so called notorious jumpers.. 


My best guess is, do research about fish and their behaivor.. Or, (even better, but that's how i do it if i don't know already) buy not everything at the same time.. Start with one sp. see their behaivor for a while and decide from there which other sp. could be added. 

I might add, lay out of hardware and plants also play a role, obviously..


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## zozo (26 Jan 2016)

I like to get in a bit more into this question, because i also notice when i google it, there is not very much to find about other then forum topics where people share their experiences and fish databases warning and stating you need a tight closed lid when keeping this fish. The only thing you read is "Oh they jump!? And that's it.. And another says "Mine never did!!". ????

But there are actualy some basic factors in how to identify fish which are most likely to jump if triggered to do so.

The first thing you should look at at is the position of their mouth, than you'll see fish are devided in several anatomical variaties. This tells you a great deal on what and where the fish likely is to feed on and obviously most of it's time is to find in it's natural habitat.




The 3 most obvious for us are the superior, terminal and inferior.

Lets start with:

Inferior mouth, in aqaurium seen on some cyprinids but most commonly on catfish family, loaches and anything else reciding and feeding of the bottom the most of it's time. These fish are less likely to see in the higher regions of the tank, if they do, you see them do that usualy near or on the glas. The vertical glass panel is nothing more than an extension of the bottom for fish like this. Loaches can be notorious jumpers or escape artists because of that.. Getting exited and have no other way to go than up the vertical bottom we created for them. Or others like corys and otos are far descendants from the lung fish and still have the urge to gulp for air. And out they could go. But for the rest they are relatively unlikely to jump.

Terminal mouth, these you see in f.e. (micro) predatory fish, chiclids, gouramis, barbs and tetras.. These fish you'll see everywhere in the tank, they are where ever is the food to be found. But generaly if there is no other reason for them they stay rather midrange, where they hunt for (micro) organisms or other little fish.

Superior mouth, f.e. the rasboras and danios, these are the fish which look for food at the surface region, edible things falling in the water from plantparts to insects.. These you'll see rarely in the lower regions, there isn't much to find for them down there, they would need to swim upside down to feed from the bottom. These are also the most notorious jumpers.. Most of the time when getting excited for what ever reason up is the most obviuos way for them to go, escaping down would only bring them more down the foodchain, because 9 out of 10 times that's where the threat or cause of excitement comes from. 

This is what you also could observate in nature.. Sitting at a lake on a windless day when the water surface is flat like a mirror. You'll see nothing happening for hours. And all of a suddun you'll see small fish jumping over a rather large erea. If you are a fisher man, then you most likely now what to do, rig a little spinner throw it in, 95% chance there is a schoaling bunch of perches in feeding frenzy on a shool of little minnows and you'll probably catch a perch. And if they are gone again, you could rig your fly rod, most likely there are also large schools of minnows in this lake tracking around bellow the surface. 

Anyway, my point is, fish if not flying fish, do not jump out because of the fun of it. There's always is a trigger for them to make them. The sp. equipped with a Superiour mouth are the ones most likely the jump the surface when a trigger occures.

These triggers can be a lot of things..  next to the obvious bad water quality irritating and over exciting them or a pinch in the but by a nasty paracite..

A few other examples are.. 
Almost all schoaling or schooling (still don't know the difference) also have a hierarchical social bond. Males like to battle of their differences, if a school contains to many males there are obviously to many fights going on which can trigger a jump.

Shoaling fish dwelling the lower parts have this behaivor too, them fighting can trigger the fish reciding above them to flee and jump.
Take for exmample Botia's they are quite boisterous alway in for a fight especialy when there are not enough hidding places for them, fights can go on all night long. And in the morning after you did a nice night snorring you wonder why some of your rasboras jumped out. Obviously boisterous or rather active mid range fish are not the best combination to go together with a school of danios above them..

So these are a few simple things you need to take in consideration.. Match your layout and planting with the fish and their needs and behaivor.. Provide hiding places, fish are well aware of their surroundings and use these places to flee to if they feel like. If you have fish jumping, try the find out what triggers them to jump, just taking for granted they do is actualy nothing more than a blind eye and not knowing what's going on.

All schoaling fish can jump if you give them a reason to do so.


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## James O (27 Jan 2016)

Can a mod make zozo's post a sticky?  I think its worth a permanent easy to find home


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## zozo (27 Jan 2016)

Well thank you James, i feel very much flattered, you finding it so helpfull and informative   But maybe as sticky it should be written in a bit better english, instead of my "Coal mine Dunglish" ©. I know somebody up to the task  i already admire very much for his vocabulary and journalistic skills. Welcome to take pieces out my story and experiences which make a bit sence and put a nice article together and maybe give it even more sence. I don't mind imho that's what sharing is all about. Anybody is welcome.


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## James O (28 Jan 2016)

You're too humble zozo 

I think an article on fish choice and care in an open top tank is just what we need.  

After all, how many pure planted tanks are there?

If you want to write something up zozo I'd be happy to run over it.  To be honest there are very few mistakes in your post above and certainly none that change the meaning of what you wrote in any way.  Better than my (insert every other language)


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## zozo (28 Jan 2016)

Thank you James..  An article about fish choice and invironmental care probably is indeed what we need.. But to be honestly in a way, to write an article like this realy honestly seen from the fishes perspective and needs. Then it would be very difficult to stay nutraly in regards with the way aquarium keeping developed over the years. And thinking of it i consider myself not nutral enough ( and once heard, to tongue in cheeky) for that. If i would write all my thoughts honestly from the heart i would kick to many shins. Which would only escalate in pro and contra discussions i realy like to avoid.. 

Very small already sensetive example i can give is: The majority of diorama scapes which roam the internet and are copied by many starters are actualy the least suited for 80% of the most popular fish sp. available in the LFS..  And even less suited to be converted to community fish tank.

It's not that i don't like it, actualy i admire the artistic skills of the makers of these temporary display scapes. But also the majority of them i would like even more with other fish.

For me this is more than just a personal opinion, but still it's just me and maybe a few others against a larger army of disagrees whom are constitutionally educated to think differently, will turn it down as only a personal opinion, understandably and no pun intended. What goes around comes around..  That's maybe could be a reason why such an article yet is not written..


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## Jaap (28 Jan 2016)

These guys keep on jumping outside the water and look at the water level. The light gradually increases and decreases with a controller. Nothing to make the jump.


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## darren636 (28 Jan 2016)

They will be able to escape.
My microdevario would get double that height !


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## zozo (28 Jan 2016)

Yes those lambchops are well known to jump..  If you see the speed they can develop goes for almost all fish i guess a 2 finger high jump is peanuts.
In the Amano galery video i previously posted i count this species in 3 different open top tanks in the first 6 minutes.. And that's in a public galery. I have no idea if he can effort fish jumping all over the floor during visiting hours.. It's just i guess i think he doesn't have this problem so much, or else it wouldn't be such a popular fish in his collections.. Just a thought..


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## James O (28 Jan 2016)

Perfect tank (amano) happy fish


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## alto (28 Jan 2016)

Jaap said:


> These guys keep on jumping outside the water and look at the water level. The light gradually increases and decreases with a controller. Nothing to make the jump



I can't really "see" the tank but sometimes it's not easy to discern why fish are "unhappy" in a given setup ...
I've not kept these fish in sometime - they look to be T espei - but fish pictured are very pale.
Recently had T heteromorpha in an open tank, T5 lighting  that went On/Off abruptly, open top etc - not a single jumper over the year I had them ... but tank is also 55cm height (x 45cm x 60cm) so perhaps that is a defining factor (& CO2 is low - moderate ... water is soft so it's very easy to over dose on the CO2)


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## James O (28 Jan 2016)

alto said:


> but tank is also 55cm height (x 45cm x 60cm) so perhaps that is a defining factor.



The plot thickens, or maybe that's deepens 




Would be great to nail these factors down though


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## zozo (28 Jan 2016)

Read this, it might get even deeper.. 
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/7/short

Don't forget inbreeding, which happens a lot, always did since money is the feul of the engine. I guess the more popular it gets the more inbreed we will encounter.
Inbreed can cause not only physical but also psychological anomaly..  

Gouverments should oblige the LFS to supplement the name of inbreed with "sp aunt/mammy"


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## alto (28 Jan 2016)

Jaap said:


> non jumpers for an 80L open top tank? They should not eat shrimp either.


Currently have
M kubotai
S axelrodi
they mostly stay deeper in the tank, & spread out much more now that they are settled - ran very low light & half the tank at intervals (re 2 pendant LED so there was always a dim area) & low CO2 during first week ... S axelrodi came in very rough (& have lost several  )
Note that axelrodi were added a couple days earlier (only 22 shipped so took bag direct from shipment) & they were not very happy in such limited numbers, added 40 - 50 kubotai (these may be a mix of M sp.) & axelrodi became much more settled (though they were so emaciated that I'm dubious about long term survival)

Again tank is 55cm H (x 45cm x 90cm)


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## Tim Harrison (28 Jan 2016)

Like Marcel says there's definitely more to this animal behaviour malarkey than meets the eye...I've kept lamb chops for about a year now in both high and low energy tanks and haven't lost a single one to the parquet. 
Chilli's on the other hand I won't keep again unless the tank is hermetically sealed...even with a cover they still found the one small gap and vacated the tank.


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## alto (28 Jan 2016)

zozo said:


> Read this, it might get even deeper..
> http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/7/short


and Part 2  Short Take: Stress in Fish, by Terry D. Bartelme


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## zozo (28 Jan 2016)

Troi said:


> Chilli's on the other hand I won't keep again unless the tank is hermetically sealed...even with a cover they still found the one small gap and vacated the tank.


Did they?? Have to ask Rob (forgot his ukaps nick), he recently did setup a relatively shallow tank with chili's, open top. Maybe 2 or 3 months now, haven't read him complaining about it, yet. I'm planning to extend my lifestock with a school of some rasbora.. Not sure which one, i had chilli's, espei, hengeli or kobutai on my mind, but my tank isn't ready, not for a few more weeks more growing more cover, could be months..


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## zozo (28 Jan 2016)

Funny just found a video on youtube with the most suitable title for this topic..  I realy like to share.. Don't fall asleep..


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## Tim Harrison (28 Jan 2016)

I watched the edited version...seems like a happy tank...


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## Jaap (1 Feb 2016)

These are the choices I have: cardinal ,neon,emperor,harlequin raspora, serpae, glowlight,black phantom.

I don't care about shoalling any more! I want them NOT to jump and NOT to eat my red cherry shrimp. If they also shoal then fantastic.

What do you suggest?


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## Tim Harrison (1 Feb 2016)

These are ace little fish...and shoal as well...sometimes http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/pethia-gelius/
These are my favourate tho' http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/celestichthys-margaritatus/


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## Wisey (1 Feb 2016)

As others have mentioned, I have Ember Tetras and they are fine in high tech, high flow, have had the water level 5mm from the top and they never jumped. I do these days have a cover, but that was due to my Odessa Barbs all jumping to their deaths, never had an issue with the Embers.


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## Jaap (1 Feb 2016)

These are the choices I have: cardinal ,neon,emperor,harlequin raspora, serpae, glowlight,black phantom. Cant get other species at my local pet shop.


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## Tim Harrison (1 Feb 2016)

Oh, I see know, my personal preference would be Cardinals. A large shoal looks fantastic.


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## Manu (1 Feb 2016)

Troi said:


> Oh, I see know, my personal preference would be Cardinals. A large shoal looks fantastic.


Agree


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## zozo (1 Feb 2016)

Comming to think of it a bit more, maybe feeding this with ordenairy floating flake food makes the fish focus to much on what's happening above them. All animals even domesticated have a certain degree of food agression. Who knows what they see what we don't, it could be a speck of dust landing on the water surface and make them race towards it thinking it could be something edible. Since fish are very competetive with beeing ringleader at the food source.

I know it is funny to see your fish race to the surface when you stick your had above the tank.. When i was a kid i trained my fish with tapping the glass in a corner to make'm all come. But if you have open top and jumpers ?? You might be better off to stop doing that if you do that.. And feed them a while with something sinking or something that's living. Train them not to focus at the surface.  I wont be surprised if it works.


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## alto (1 Feb 2016)

zozo said:


> maybe feeding this with ordenairy floating flake food makes the fish focus to much on what's happening above them


agree that this may be a more relevant factor than many expect
(I rarely feed surface floating foods)



Jaap said:


> cardinal ,neon,emperor,harlequin raspora, serpae, glowlight,black phantom.


I have some green neons - likely wild caught as they have a very high sense of "alert" and they are tiny (that reported 15 - 25mm seems accurate) - in contrast, I've seen many green neon shipments in the shops that are much larger ... I like the more subtle coloring of these fish (rather than cardinals - though Troi's picture is stunning )

Black phantom would be quite opposite in behavior (& aspect) to the Glowlights so consider which appeals more - I'm not sure of the dimensions of your tank, you might try a smaller group of both, then switch over to the one that appeals more (check if your lfs allows return for credit etc) ... or keep both 
Most shoaling species, once relaxed in an environment, will begin to spread out & occupy all areas of the tank, only returning to a "school" formation when threatened (threat may not be overt)

Emperor tetras I'd not actually put in a small tank - suggested minimum is 60cm, but they can be quite territorial (rival males) & I'd not add them to any tank under 90cm (& not a shallow tank)  

I was just looking at the tank this morning with
M kubotai (50 or so)
S axelrodi (maybe 12 or so remaining - they completely integrate with the kubotai rather than remaining close to other axelrodi)
9 orange "guppy boys" (look to be a guppy/endler mix)
The streaming "shoal" ... was the group of bright orange! they often separate but rarely stay apart long, there are a couple that like to go about their own business, but the group of 7 is rarely apart


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## Jaap (2 Feb 2016)

This is quite stupid of me first asking for advice and then not using it but I got Glowlight Tetras. I most agree with the Cardinal Tetras and I so wanted to get 15 of them however there were two things that made me change my mind and to be honest I hope I am wrong so I can get the Cardinals.

One was that I read that Glowlights do fine with shrimp while I could not find a statement like this for Cardinals (maybe I missed it) and the other was that Cardinals are middle to top swimmers while the Glowlights are middle to bottom swimmers which means less chances for them to jump.

Any thoughts on the reasoning behind my choice?

Can I have a shoal of Glowlights and a shoal of Cardinals together in a 60x40x40 planted tank?


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## SFlow (2 Feb 2016)

Troi said:


> These are ace little fish...and shoal as well...sometimes http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/pethia-gelius/
> These are my favourate tho' http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/celestichthys-margaritatus/


Have to agree with the second choice. Galaxy rasboras are amazing, they can be a bit shy if they are not accompanied by other fish.


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## PARAGUAY (2 Feb 2016)

Love Glowlights in numbers they look really good and tend to stay mid aquarium and mine anyway stay together, I think it's often unless it's a hatchet or killiefish what definetly jump at anytime, it is this feeding time or suddenly exposed to noise that can be the trigger for jumping but I think unless it's a breeding project not to be too quiet as they get used to people walking past,general living room movement


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