# Amano and Cherry Shrimp keep dying!



## Elliott_Fordham (30 Apr 2020)

So I've been keeping planted tanks for a while now and I've kept shrimp in a lot of them. The problem is every time I buy some shrimp I keep them for about 3-4 months and gradually over that time they disappear or die. My fish are fine and healthy and all my water parameters are in check. None of my fish are aggressive species (cardinals and ember tetras). I run CO2 in the day that fluctuates the pH of the water could this be having an effect on the shrimp? I water change 50% twice a week with tap water. 

Anyone have any idea what keeps happening to them, i'm completely stuck.

Cheers 
Elliott


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## kilnakorr (30 Apr 2020)

I remember a friend with same issues. We tested a lot of things an finally found a Cu issue.
Seems some old copper pipes was to blame.

I doubt the CO2 is the problem, as you should notice this in fish behavior.


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## BarryH (30 Apr 2020)

I've only been keeping shrimp about six months Elliott but I'm now seeing mine grow and multiply as everyone on here said they would, so I'm miles away from thinking I'm an expert.

Someone asked a very similar question over on UK Shrimpers and as soon as large water changes were mentioned they pointed at that as a reason for shrimp deaths. The original poster was doing one 50% water change weekly and he was told that was far to much. Some keepers on there do not do water changes at all they just keep topping up their tanks. Having said that, I would guess that unlike both myself and you, they probably do not have fish in their tanks, just shrimp.


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## Fisher2007 (30 Apr 2020)

I'm noy saying the above is wrong but I do 50-60% watwr changes on both my tanks each week without fail and I have a healthy population of cherry, crystal and amano shrimp in both

It might be the case but at the same time I wouldn't rule out other causes too at this time


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## Aqua sobriquet (30 Apr 2020)

Shrimp are multiplying like made in my tank. I do about 10-15% water change a week. The tank gets a mixture of rainwater and tap.


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## jaypeecee (30 Apr 2020)

Hi @Elliott_Fordham 

Shrimps are notoriously sensitive to copper. It doesn't have to be old copper pipes in the household. There is sufficient copper straight out of the tap to kill shrimps. The legal limit for copper in UK tap water is 2 mg/l (ppm). Shrimps can be killed at one-tenth of this figure. The maximum copper concentration (according to my water company report) for 2017, for example, was 0.26 mg/l. Some tap water conditioners, e.g. Seachem _Prime_ should neutralize this copper. Apparently, shrimp are particularly vulnerable to the effects of copper after they've just moulted.

Hope that helps.

JPC


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## sparkyweasel (1 May 2020)

More information about your set-up might help.


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## Elliott_Fordham (2 May 2020)

Hi all
So from what I can gather it is probably a shock (large water change) or a Copper issue. Does anyone know if I can get a copper test kit and I think I will buy some prime as my API water conditioner may not remove copper. I will do smaller water changes as well to hopefully reduce any risk of this being the cause of death.

Info about my tank is stated below:

*Equipment*
Aquarium = 30x30x30cm Evolution Aqua Aquascaper with glass lid.
Light = Twinstar 300E light - 15 Watts - 8 hrs
Filter = 270L/hr corner with spray bar
Heater = Aquael 25 Watt heater.
CO2 = 0.5 BPS 21 hrs (adjusted to try and keep pH constant)
Planting = Heavily stocked on plants (foreground, midground and background)
Hardscape = grey mountain stone, manzanita wood

*Parameters*
Temp - 25 degrees C
Nitrate - 25ppm
Nitrite - 0ppm
Ammonia - 0ppm
pH - 6.8
KH - 6 degrees
GH - Unknown

Thanks everyone


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## Siege (2 May 2020)

You have cardinals and embers. How many of each?

How often do you feed and how much? Do you feed the shrimp?

Have you got a photo of your tank?

cheers 

S.


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## jaypeecee (2 May 2020)

Hi @Elliott_Fordham 



Elliott_Fordham said:


> Does anyone know if I can get a copper test kit...



Yes, I use the SenSafe _John's Copper Check_ test strips (Part Number 480042). You should be able to get them from Amazon. Some of the aquarium copper test kits are insufficiently sensitive. The SenSafe test strips will measure as low as 0.05 mg/l (ppm). I have been using these for over a year on my shrimp tank. They are easy to use. For more information, here ya go......

https://sensafe.com/sensafe-copper-johns/

From this website, you can download a 'dip time temperature compensation chart'. If you run into any problems (very unlikely), feel free to PM me. 

JPC


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## jaypeecee (2 May 2020)

Hi @Elliott_Fordham 

I have just spotted this:



Elliott_Fordham said:


> CO2 = 0.5 BPS 21 hrs (adjusted to try and keep pH constant)



I have a couple of observations/questions:

1 What do you mean by '0.5 BPS'? Is that 30 bubbles per minute?

2 It shouldn't be necessary to inject CO2 for 21 hours. You quote your pH as 6.8. At what time of day would that have been measured? With a KH = 6dKH, the tank pH should remain pretty stable without needing to have CO2 on all that time. Injecting CO2 at night when the plants will not use it could lead to CO2 concentration being in excess of 30ppm. Do you use a drop checker? What colour is it first thing on a morning? Forgive me for asking but I assume that your tank light is on a timer?

That's enough questions for now.

JPC


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## tam (2 May 2020)

I would say step one is work out your GH. Are you using tap water? If so you should be able to get a rough figure from your local water report.

Very soft water can also be a problem from shrimp as it effects their moulting. To be honest, a lot of things can be a problem for shrimp so you'll probably have to do some trial and error.

Do you see any symptoms? Are they reproducing? Do they mould ok?


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## jaypeecee (2 May 2020)

tam said:


> I would say step one is work out your GH. Are you using tap water? If so you should be able to get a rough figure from your local water report.



Hi @Elliott_Fordham 

@tam has made a very good point. You say that your GH is unknown. As GH is primarily a measure of dissolved calcium and magnesium, the calcium, in particular, is very important to the shrimp's exoskeleton. This is the thin layer that shrimps lose when they moult. So, calcium is very important in the water _and_ in the shrimp's diet.

JPC


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## Elliott_Fordham (3 May 2020)

Hi all
So @Siege I have 6 embers and two cardinals (cardinals rescued from heater disaster and only currently have one tank). I feed a pinch once a day and I also feed with shrimp food twice a week. I have a photo of the tank and will post it attached to the message.

Yeah @jaypeecee BPS is bubbles per second so 0.5 BPS is the same as 30 per minute. I dose CO2  for that long to try and stabilise my pH because I notice that my drop checker cycles from blue to green to light green when I only run CO2 during the photoperiod. Yes my tank light is on a timer.

@tam I've tested my GH today and it is 8 degrees. Yes I am using tap water they were moulting fine and regularly and then the amanos just disappeared. I can never get my cherries to reproduce so never had any shrimplets.

Hopefully that answers some questions

Thanks for all the help.


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen (3 May 2020)

If you try the experiment with overnight aeration, it’ll be very interesting to see if this problem goes away as well!

I can’t see anything in your water parameters to cause problems with shrimps.  A GH of 8° is about perfect, and the great majority of that will be due to Calcium, given the UK’s geology. It’s very odd that your cherries aren’t breeding - something’s wrong there, because in my experience they breed prodigiously!

I think I would lower the temperature by a degree or two. This will raise the oxygen level, and shrimps may be slightly happier too. I have embers at 23°C and they’re perfectly happy.

I’m not convinced it’s a copper problem. I have always believed that copper is rapidly fatal to shrimps rather than it being a chronic problem.

Looking at the picture above, I’d say your tank is approximately the same as mine in terms of plant mass. And your surface agitation looks quite gentle, as indeed is mine. So if I have been having issues with overnight oxygen depletion due to high plant mass then I wouldn’t be surprised if you are too.

Other than a couple of Amanos I haven’t yet added many shrimp; lockdown has forced me to be patient, which is no bad thing because the tank will provide more shrimp food as it matures.


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## jaypeecee (3 May 2020)

Dr Mike Oxgreen said:


> I have always believed that copper is rapidly fatal to shrimps rather than it being a chronic problem.



That must surely depend on the copper concentration. I'll check to see if I have any scientific papers on this.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (3 May 2020)

Hi Folks,

Whilst I search my 'library', here is a very informative article with some figures:

https://aquariumbreeder.com/how-copper-affects-dwarf-shrimp/

JPC


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## jaypeecee (3 May 2020)

Hi @Elliott_Fordham 

In the article to which I linked above, there is an important statement (in my opinion!):

"In alkaline water (high pH), copper ions bind to calcium carbonate (KH). Therefore, the amount of free copper ions in the water decreases. However, if the pH drops, the poisonous copper ions will be released again".

This may provide a significant clue as to what is happening in your tank. You measured a pH of 6.8 and I asked at what time of day this was measured. A pH of 6.8 is slightly acidic but it could potentially fall lower than this at night. And, as stated above, as pH drops, more copper ions will be released into the water. It seems as if you would be wise to maintain the tank pH at an absolute minimum of 7.0 at all times.

JPC


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## Witcher (3 May 2020)

Cardinia multidentata are really tough shrimps, they live in the coastal rivers where water parameters (hardness, acidity etc.) can change very quickly due to the tides (that's what also causes them to breed in almost perfectly monthly intervals). Personally I think the only threats to them are copper in the water and ammonia/nitrite spikes and I'd definitely agree with @jaypeecee - you need to look first at potential Cu presence in the water.


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen (3 May 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Elliott_FordhamA pH of 6.8 is slightly acidic but it could potentially fall lower than this at night.


Why would pH fall at night?

If anything it will rise, as CO₂ (injected during the photoperiod) is out-gassed. If done correctly, CO₂ will cause a daily swing of 1.0, down before and during the photoperiod, and back up again afterwards. This swing happens regardless of KH; the KH merely determines the starting pH.

I think we’re over-complicating this. To eliminate copper as a potential threat, Elliott should switch to a water conditioner that binds heavy metals, such as Seachem Prime, or check whether his current conditioner performs that function (and if he’s using any of the well-known brands I’d be surprised if it doesn’t).

He doesn’t need to keep his pH above 7.0 - that will be largely impossible if he’s injecting enough CO₂ to keep his plants happy. In order to achieve that, he’d have to crank up his KH so that the pH reaches 8.0 during the non-CO₂ period - his embers and cardinals aren’t going to be at their happiest at that level, and it’s pushing the envelope for cherry shrimp.


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## jaypeecee (3 May 2020)

Hi Everyone,



Dr Mike Oxgreen said:


> Why would pH fall at night? If anything it will rise, as CO₂ (injected during the photoperiod) is out-gassed.



pH will almost certainly fall at night because:



Elliott_Fordham said:


> CO2 = 0.5 BPS 21 hrs



Please note the 21 hrs.



Dr Mike Oxgreen said:


> Elliott should switch to a water conditioner that binds heavy metals, such as Seachem Prime



That has already been suggested:



jaypeecee said:


> Some tap water conditioners, e.g. Seachem _Prime_ should neutralize this copper





Dr Mike Oxgreen said:


> He doesn’t need to keep his pH above 7.0 - that will be largely impossible if he’s injecting enough CO₂ to keep his plants happy.



At the end of the day, @Elliott_Fordham may have to make some compromises. Elliott could, for example, reduce the lighting intensity and this will then require less CO2 to be injected.

Decisions, decisions.

JPC


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## Elliott_Fordham (3 May 2020)

Hi all

I appreciate all the advice on what I should do. I feel some of the topics mentioned are highly debatable and could be argued at length however I believe we should not attack other peoples opinions to harshly whether we agree with them or not. I have reduced my CO2 down to the photoperiod and got the drop checker to stabilise at a green colour for all hours. I will test the copper and provide an update on the forum. For now I will try and mitigate the addition of copper to the aquarium by 1. running the tap for a period of time before collecting the water and 2. adding sufficient water conditioner to the water added to my aquarium. I will monitor my remaining shrimp closely and to respond to @jaypeecee I can't dim the light on the aquarium unless I purchase a dimmer attachment. 

Thanks
Elliott


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## jaypeecee (4 May 2020)

Hi @Elliott_Fordham 

Thanks for your feedback. We have offered a few ideas. I'm sure we all wish you success.

Please keep us updated.

JPC


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## Siege (4 May 2020)

A couple of other suggestions -

- stop feeding the shrimp. They will do their job and find their own food.

- reduce fish feeding to perhaps every other day for a bit.

- it is a small tank so do a large water change and blast the substrate with a turkey baster. Refill and do it again.

Bearing in mind it’s the shrimp popping their clogs and not the fish there maybe a build up of waste in the substrate from over feeding. Have seen it a couple of times where shrimp are over fed.

ps. You shouldn’t need co2 on for that duration in such a small tank.


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## tiger15 (4 May 2020)

If you do 50% WC twice a week, and the shrimp are dying, it's a telltale sign your tap water contains excessive heavy metals.  Most metals originate from your home plumbing, less likely from your water source so your water provider test reports can be misleading.  Copper is the most likely suspect due to copper piping in many home plumbing.  Zinc is a second likely suspect, because zinc alloy solders (zinc-tin-lead, zinc-cadmium, and zinc-tin-copper) are used commonly to join pipes ever since lead solder was banned in US (likely in UK too ) in the 80s.  Dianne Walstad reported in her book that she couldn't keep shrimp alive in her  tap water due to zinc.  pH and hardness also affect the  toxicity and leachate of metals from your plumbing.  Your 24-hr CO2 injection does not help as low pH brings out more dissolved phase metals.

I don't know whether Prime can permanently bind metals or just temporarily as low pH may break the binding.  Serious shrimp keepers use RO remineralized water or peat filtered tap water to keep Caridina shrimp which need low pH water that makes metals 10x more toxic.

I have copper plumbing and zinc solder in my house and don't take the chance. I do 50% WC in my Neocaridina shrimp tanks every couple week, but I don't use tap water directly  for replacement,  but water drawn from my big planted tank in which plants are effective filter of heavy metals


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## Sammy Islam (4 May 2020)

It could just be the co2 and lack of oxygen? Being on for 21hours is excessive, especially when the lights are off. Way lower oxygen levels, no co2 is being used, but more co2 is being added from the plants. Plus the shrimp are probably more active at night so use more oxygen?  

I would:
1) reduce co2 duration, on 2 hours before lights on and off 1 hour before lights out.
2) increase oxygen/aeration


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## Elliott_Fordham (27 May 2020)

Hi All 

Would just like to update you on my situation. I bought a John's copper check test kit and used it on my tap water and tank water after sadly my last cherry shrimp died (again after a water change). The test came back completely negative (pic below). So it can't be the amount of copper in my water that is killing my shrimp. Is there any other suggestions as to what it could be? Could it be a disease that is sticking around in my tank? My shrimp look healthy before they unexpectedly die? could it be a slight difference in water temperature between the new water and the tank water. Usually there is about a 1 degree difference in water temp. Could it be something to do with the fluctuation in pH as I inject CO2 now for 7 hrs during the photoperiod and my drop checker goes from blue to green throughout the day and then is blue by the morning. Do any types of algae kill shrimp? This could be the issue however it doesn't align with the water changes. Could the bucket I use for water changes be leaking shrimp toxic substances into the water? Anyway if anyone has any ideas or answers to the possible scenarios I have just mentioned please let me know.

Many Thanks 
Elliott


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## milla (27 May 2020)

ok so my guess would be a lack of calcium.    
The water changes can trigger shedding.  Lack of calcium and other minerals can lead to deaths during shedding.
But i could be wrong your water maybe hard as rock.


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## jaypeecee (27 May 2020)

Hi @Elliott_Fordham

Just homing in on the three pieces of information below:


Elliott_Fordham said:


> I bought a John's copper check test kit and used it on my tap water and tank water after sadly my last cherry shrimp died (again after a water change). The test came back completely negative (pic below). So it can't be the amount of copper in my water that is killing my shrimp.





Elliott_Fordham said:


> Could it be something to do with the fluctuation in pH as I inject CO2 now for 7 hrs during the photoperiod and my drop checker goes from blue to green throughout the day and then is blue by the morning.





jaypeecee said:


> "In alkaline water (high pH), copper ions bind to calcium carbonate (KH). Therefore, the amount of free copper ions in the water decreases. However, if the pH drops, the poisonous copper ions will be released again".



When you did the copper test an hour or so ago, what was the pH of the tank water? I just want to be sure that copper isn't the problem. It now looks unlikely but the pH reading may decide it. Is the water acidic (pH less than 7.0) or is it alkaline (pH greater than 7.0)?

JPC


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## sparkyweasel (27 May 2020)

Elliott_Fordham said:


> Could the bucket I use for water changes be leaking shrimp toxic substances into the water?


That is possible, but quite unlikely. You can eliminate the possibility by getting a brewing bucket and using it exclusively for aquarium purposes.
You could test your bucket (current or new) and your conditioned tapwater by filling the bucket with tapwater, adding conditioner, and adding some daphnia or cyclops. As they are crustaceans like shrimps, if they survive it's very unlikely that anything in the water, conditioner or bucket is toxic to shrimps.
It would narrow down the search for the root of the problem.
hth


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## jaypeecee (27 May 2020)

sparkyweasel said:


> You could test your bucket (current or new) and your conditioned tapwater by filling the bucket with tapwater, adding conditioner, and adding some daphnia or cyclops. As they are crustaceans like shrimps, if they survive it's very unlikely that anything in the water, conditioner or bucket is toxic to shrimps.



Hi @sparkyweasel 

What a good idea! I presume that's something you've tried? I seem to recall that Daphnia are very sensitive to the heavy metals.

JPC


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## sparkyweasel (27 May 2020)

Fortunately my tapwater doesn't give me any concerns. But I use the same principle for testing hardscape if I'm not sure about it's safety, such as; unknown rocks especially ones with veins, found wood, sand that wasn't sold for aquarium use, and anything synthetic. After a week in the bucket, if the daphnia are still OK and the pH and TDS haven't changed drastically I'm happy to use the hardscape.
The daphnia, cyclops etc. come from my rainwater butts, where they would also show me if anything had contaminated the water.
Of course, they are also good, free fishfood.


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## Elliott_Fordham (29 May 2020)

Hi @milla 

I could measure my calcium in the tank however my water is medium to hard in my region so I doubt that would be the reason. My aquarium is heavily planted however which may cause the calcium in the water column to be  used up. 

Hi @jaypeecee 

When I tested the water my pH was at 6.5 in the aquarium and 7.4 in the water from the tap and both results were negative so I doubt the pH is having an effect on the coordination (binding) of the carbonate to the copper ions. 

Hi @sparkyweasel 

The daphnia test sounds like a good idea and the bucket is used exclusively for my aquarium water.

Thank you all for the advice


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## Simon Cole (29 May 2020)

Two ideas.
1.  I find that certain fish will attack shrimp and devour them when you least expect it.
2.  The role of agricultural pollutants cannot be overlooked. Many farmers will use pesticides at this time of year. I observed one water company third party assessment where they had over 1000 water quality breaches each year - and that was simple water chemistry. Pesticides are far harder to determine. You need to start sending samples to a professional lab. Its not going to cost that much more than the cost of your fish to get definitive answers, then you can look into disease - e.g. flatworms.
3.  There are some good points above. For example, if you look at phosphate loading, then you may find that it is the primary mechanism causing copper ions to be released due to a pH change affecting the CEC. Thus getting a good run of water tests would help, because if it is an inorganic problem, then few ions interact on their own. I suspect that phosphate toxicity is another place to look for answers.
...good old activated carbon could help. ...talk to water company if you are drinking the same water would be safest.


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