# Problems using a FE?



## Martin cape (8 Jan 2013)

Hi guys,

Has anyone ever encountered any problems using a fire extinghuiser for CO2 in the aquarium?

Reason I ask, I've been having working pressure fluctuations from an Easy Aqua regulator connected to a FE. I've contacted Richard from AE and he's asked me to send it back to him so he can test. He's said he has had another customer with a similar problem when connected to a FE but Richard couldnt replicate the problem.

We're running out of possible reasons for this fluctuation, and slowing down of the bubble count when using an atomiser. The cylinder pressure on the FE is 54 bar so surely it shouldnt have a problem going through a regulator. It's still just a compressed gas in a cylinder.

Any help is appreciated guys, at the min with all this trying i'm getting BBA as the CO2 levels keep going up and down, now won't have any for a few days.


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## ian_m (9 Jan 2013)

I had similar issues when I first set up my CO2 which I put down to using excessing lengths of CO2 tubing. When I first setup my CO2 FE system I just got my 5metres of CO2 piping I cut it in half put 2.5m FE to bubble counter and 2.5m bubble counter to atomiser, just to get the system going. However I found it very hard to get consistent bubble rate. Basically it would be very slow rate followed by fantastically high rate, then slow down over period of a minute or two, almost stop, then couple of minutes later fantastically high bubble rate. This I think is due to the tubing pressurising and releasing.

A week later I cut all the CO2 tubing to "correct" lengths for my setup (and added one way valve) and CO2 was now easily controllable with needle valve.

I have a feeling someone else, on this forum, had an issue like this where he located his FE (and needle valve) on ther side of the room to his tank, running a pipe along the skirting board and was unable to set a reliable CO2 bubble rate. I think he fixed it by buying another needle valve and locating new needle valve, bubble counter and diffuser all at the "tank end" of the CO2 setup.


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## foxfish (9 Jan 2013)

I am not sure how your system works but you could just remove the atomiser & feed the gas into a pump or into your filter.  That way you will see if it is the atomiser or not & still get gas in the tank.


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## Martin cape (9 Jan 2013)

Hi guys. 

I had the tubing without atomiser going straight into tank, just to check and the reg was still doing it. Tubing length was only about a metre too. 

Its been sent back and Richard is gonna take a look at it. God knows what it could be. 

I ant have it going into the filter really, I still have the standard internal corner box. So wanted the atomiser placed under my Koralia.


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## Martin cape (9 Jan 2013)

Seems strange that the tubing could cause them problems. It shouldn't.

But it sounds exactly like the symptoms I was getting Tim. What was the working pressure needle doing on the reg? Was it fluctuating?

If I get it back I may try using the bare minimum of tubing. I was like you. Just used it all for ease. Some looped down first then went up vertical to the tank. Don't know if that could affect it.


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## Spikey-Mike (9 Jan 2013)

Hi,
I've no experience with fire extinguishers; I run standard 5kg CO2 bottles... but I think that the outlet on a FE is via a tube from the bottom of the tank. A long shot but could the CO2 be comming out of the bottle as liquid and messing with the regulator?

Cheers, Mike.


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## Martin cape (9 Jan 2013)

Yea never thought of that. Has anyone else ever seen this issue? 

Would it not turn to gas as soon as it reaches the reg?


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## ian_m (10 Jan 2013)

Martin cape said:


> Would it not turn to gas as soon as it reaches the reg?


Yes it does turn straight to gas. For an experiment I ran my regulator, no pipe attached, needle valve fully open, for a minute or two and there was absolutely no sign of coldness on the FE neck or regulator. If really worried, try running the FE upside down. Here is a cross section of a FE.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (10 Jan 2013)

I have no faith in atomisers any more although I'm sure there are people out there using them with some success. All my co2 problems began when I switched to them. The quality of them seems to differ greatly from blowing holes to needing massive pressure to get them going as well as sustaining a stable pressure. I first started with a ladder type diffuser and then tried atomisers. My reg which was quite old it has to be said but had no problems which gave up first. It worked first time on then when the solenoid knocked off refused to switch back on again. I would come home to no co2 on. The regulator even without the diffuser connected would just give a short blast of co2 then stop working. The gauge then stuck at 2bar even when the FE was off and eventually didn't work even when not under pressure. Did these high pressures destroy the reg, I think so. I bought a new reg which was supposed to handle these working pressures but for some bizarre reason the solenoid wouldn't switch even though when disconnected from the system it could be clearly heard knocking on and off. I tried running for a while without a solenoid 24/7 and the atomiser blew a hole after 2 months. Another atomiser later did the same thing.

I switched to using a reactor which pretty much had no back pressure and both my reg and solenoid have been working seamlessly now for nearly a year although my reg the TMC V2 is a bit rubbish for making small adjustments, I may add a better needle valve into the system at some point.
It begs the question are the regs, even though that's what it says on the tin able to deal with pressures this high and keep it constant. If you think about it having massive pressure then a release then it needs to get back up again constantly can't be doing the reg any good.

Personally, if it were me mate and AE change the reg for you I would avoid atomisers and save yourself a headache but that's just my opinion! All co2 related problems I encountered stem from using atomisers. Co2 is one of the hardest properties in the tank to get right which results in algae problems and atomisers add an extra layer of problems. Richard is sound and very helpful, I know this by being in a very similar situation to yourself which when I think back all started with atomisers. You only have to spend a day looking though the co2 section of the forum and see that the vast majority of posts relating to issues like yours all have a common factor, either the inline up style or atomisers!
Fine mist type co2 going into the tank is in theory a great idea and beneficial to plants but comes with it's draw backs. But the benefits of it compared to stable co2 with slightly larger bubbles created by either reactors, glass diffusers or simply pumping into your filter in my eyes far out weighs the hassle. Atomisers seem to be a lottery on whether they work properly with a side bet on whether the regulator can deal with it.

Cut the hassle out of an already complicated situation mate and just have some slightly bigger co2 bubbles going in.


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## Martin cape (10 Jan 2013)

Richard rang me today pal. The reg is working fine on his pub style cylinder. 

So, it must be the fire extinguisher. He had an atomiser connected the the pressure was fine. 

I'm not going to be able to change to a pub style cylinder as Solway Heat have 10 litre tanks as the smallest which won't fit in my cupboard under the tank (I'm guessing). So think ill try one of the glass ceramic diffusers. Less pressure but it might work. 

What ya think pal?

Btw, Solway don't refill fire extinguishers unfortunately.


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## foxfish (10 Jan 2013)

I think there are thousands if not tens of thousands of folk world wide successfully using fire extinguishers!
It would be very bad luck to find one that doesnt work.!
I did not quite understand your answer about just feeding the gas through the air line without the anatomiser... did it work?
I get an exchange FE every time I need a refill, perhaps you can just another one to try.


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## Martin cape (10 Jan 2013)

Sorry. 

All I had was the airline from reg to the tank. Nothing more. The bubble count remained constant but the working pressure on the reg was fluctuating slightly. 

Have a quick look. 



Richard seems to think its the FE. But I know of at least one other person experiencing the same thing using the same reg and a FE. 

Wondering if its the way the handle operates. If it pushes down a spring, could totally pressing the handle hinder the release of CO2 as the spring will be fully coiled up?


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## foxfish (10 Jan 2013)

What a nightmare mate - never seen the likes!
I guess you will have to try another FE if only to prove a point, but it appears to me to be a regulator or valve issue.


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## Martin cape (10 Jan 2013)

I've done a leak test on the reg and with the solenoid closed. It holds the working pressure and cylinder pressure stable for 24 hours plus.

Suppose I could try a different check valve too. Almost like its stuck then releasing. I haven't tried just reg to water with no check valve incase I sucked water up. But one more thing to check. 

I'm going to contact a couple companies on Monday about a pub style cylinder. I've got a price for a 10 litre which is cheap but the bloody thing is too big for under the tank lol. Need a 5 litre from somewhere.


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## foxfish (10 Jan 2013)

You could try the reg & valve unit with one of the disposable bottle to check it yourself...


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## AverageWhiteBloke (10 Jan 2013)

Don't know what to suggest mate, initial thoughts would be try without the check valve to eliminate that. If you take the pipe out of the water before you knock off the gas you should be okay. There's only 3 things it could be so if it's not the valve that leaves fe and reg. I have various pub bottles and any gods amounts of fe's but I think they're all empty will check tomorrow. I know the guy I get my refills off had a 5kg fe just before Christmas for 25 quid I could check if he still has it. I also have a dd connection which converts to disposable welding bottles but I'm wanting to keep that.  You could borrow that which eliminates the fe but that means buying welding gas. Doesn't explain why Richard had no problems. Last ditch thought I notice you have a cable tie round the handle, I don't suppose that could be slipping or stretching and are you sure the fe handle is fully depressed? Could it be that while tieing the cable tie you're letting the handle off a bit? I used to drill a hole if there wasn't one already to put the pin back in the closed position but the guy who swaps my empties for full didn't like it because he services them for the next customer so now I wrap duck tape round. Other than that could the atomiser have damaged the reg?


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## Martin cape (11 Jan 2013)

I'm pretty sure now that Richard has tested the reg, that's fine pal. Like you say only other variables are the valves and FE. I'm gonna test without check valve when I get the reg back. Then ill try again and making sure the handle is fully depressed pal. 

If you don't mind having a check of your cylinders that would help. Even a different FE just to rule out mine beong dodgy. Don't suppose you have a pub style 5 litre one that could be refilled do you? I rang Solway Heating but the smallest there is 10 litres which won't fit in my cupboard. 

Thanks a lot


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## Martin cape (11 Jan 2013)

Sent you a message pal.


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## mal blackburn (7 Mar 2013)

I have just put together a FE and an UpAqua reg (like the one in the above vid). first off the working pressure gauge went right round to over its max pressure but eventually dropped back down to about the 2 bar mark. Its now operating about 2 to 2 1/2 bar. I believe on initial start up with timer, it takes a while for the co2 system to pressurise and find equillibrium. another thing to remember is during this stage any check valves will be opening and closing causing pressure de-stabilisation in the system, hence the slight fluctuation of the working pressure gauge and variable bubble rates. I think ? lol. I am still just trying to get the right pressure adjustment about 2 bps with a ceramic diffuser and a 180l tank. I may need to put another diffuser in to spread the co2. Hope this may help in any way.

Thanks


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## mal blackburn (21 Aug 2013)

Still enjoying my easy aqua reg and FE. Although i did encounter a prob with the fe that it would not refill so have a loan fe at the minute. I believe most fluctuations are caused by simply an imbalance of working pressure, check valves and operating pressure of diffusion. My route from fe to diffuser goes through 4 check valves making sure i get no backward syphoning of water to regulator.


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