# Monte Carlo



## Christos Ioannou (31 Aug 2015)

Struggling for too long with this.



 

Substrate=clay
Light=2x54w t5 65cm above substrate (40cm above water)
Dosing=EI
CO2 via reactor then spraybay
30ppm co2 calibrated solution lime green@substrate level 
Circulation:even mc leafs swing in current
Remaining plants doing ok
New leaves appear but soon become dark as in the picture. Leaves under substrate are bright green. Growth is slooowwww.

As per this img I have <80par @substrate (no reflectors)



 

Too much light? Should I raise lights even higher? Or this is as good as it gets with this substrate? 

Thanks


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## pepedopolous (31 Aug 2015)

It's not the substrate, I've grown MC in sand and tend to think it easier than most carpet plants. Can you be sure your CO2 at the substrate level is good? I would get a pH meter and test the pH decrease due to CO2 over the course of a day. It should drop by 1 unit before your lights come on. Also if you can, raise the lights more as this will make the CO2 demand less. I have probably less than 30 par at substrate and MC grows quite well.


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## Christos Ioannou (31 Aug 2015)

pepedopolous said:


> It's not the substrate, I've grown MC in sand and tend to think it easier than most carpet plants.


Maybe its easier for those tiny roots to grasp on the sand instead of the clay?



> Can you be sure your CO2 at the substrate level is good? I would get a pH meter and test the pH decrease due to CO2 over the course of a day. It should drop by 1 unit before your lights come on.


Well the aquasabi calibrated co2 solution says so. Drop checker at substrate. But I will setup the pH probe again and see. Mind you probe can only be submerged @ 10cm in water...



> Also if you can, raise the lights more as this will make the CO2 demand less. I have probably less than 30 par at substrate and MC grows quite well.


Now lights at 75cm (30inches) ~ 50par


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## TKTG (1 Sep 2015)

I struggled with my carpet plant for quite a while in the beginning as well, here's what I have done to get it right at the end.

on light: first started with a set of LEDs, didn't work, then switched to T5HO 24W x3, 40cm above substrate, turned on for 11 hours a day

on dosing: this is the part that surprised me, I used to follow the instruction printed on the fertiliser bottle strictly but the leaves just kept turning yellow so I have increased the dosage incrementally, now I am applying 3 times the recommended amount, mine says I should add 10ml of it per week, what I do is I add 4ml per day, I think the trick here is that one shouldn't just follow some generic advice, the better approach is to find out the max. level of fertiliser that a tank can take without triggering an algae bloom and stick with that level.

on CO2: I set it at a level that is just below which that will drive the fish to the surface and I don't even know what ppm is.

another thought: if your patch of MC is surrounded by rocks then that will reduce the amount of light that it receives because now only the light that comes directly from above can reach it, whereas the light coming down at an angle will now be blocked by the rocks and that is a substantial amount of light lost.


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## Martin in Holland (1 Sep 2015)

Christos Ioannou said:


> Light=2x54w t5 65cm above substrate (40cm above water)


This is to much light for your tank.



TKTG said:


> the better approach is to find out the max. level of fertiliser that a tank can take without triggering an algae bloom


Fertilizer do NOT cause algae to grow (or bloom)....to much light does!


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## flygja (2 Sep 2015)

How big is your tank? I had MC that didn't grow much for some months. And suddenly it's nice and compact, even growing with big leaves into the shade of Crypts. So many things changed in-between that I don't know what caused it. Light levels, CO2 diffusion methods and concentration, fertilisation.


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## Christos Ioannou (2 Sep 2015)

flygja said:


> How big is your tank?


It's 135(l) x 40(w) x 35(t) [cm]
I am running a pH profile for the 2nd day, will post results tomorrow.


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## Christos Ioannou (3 Sep 2015)

Here's the pH profile taken for two days.

Due to evaporation, water level has dropped and spray bar is closer to surface on the 2nd day (higher surface agitation). So I suppose CO2 escapes faster hence higher pH values (red line)

Nevertheless on both days, pH drop is ~ 1.2 units before lights on.

pH is read with a pH probe immersed 10cm into the water (max level)
pH probe stays immersed in the water for the duration of the readings.



 
Comments welcome!


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## viktorlantos (3 Sep 2015)

How is the water temperature in the past 2 weeks?


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## Christos Ioannou (3 Sep 2015)

viktorlantos said:


> How is the water temperature in the past 2 weeks?



Temperature was at about 28'C tops, with help of aquarium fans (hot summer) between July and August.
For the last two weeks, temp is about 26'C (fans still working).

I have introduced MC into the tank since late March and the picture is somehow the same.
But only recently (31/8) did I raise the lights at 75cm above substrate.


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## Christos Ioannou (3 Sep 2015)

Hi TKTG,



TKTG said:


> on dosing: this is the part that surprised me, I used to follow the instruction printed on the fertiliser bottle strictly but the leaves just kept turning yellow so I have increased the dosage incrementally, now I am applying 3 times the recommended amount, mine says I should add 10ml of it per week, what I do is I add 4ml per day, I think the trick here is that one shouldn't just follow some generic advice, the better approach is to find out the max. level of fertiliser that a tank can take without triggering an algae bloom and stick with that level.


The think is that I don't get the yellow leaves.



TKTG said:


> on CO2: I set it at a level that is just below which that will drive the fish to the surface and I don't even know what ppm is.


As per my pH profile, I do get > 1unit pH drop...



TKTG said:


> another thought: if your patch of MC is surrounded by rocks then that will reduce the amount of light that it receives because now only the light that comes directly from above can reach it, whereas the light coming down at an angle will now be blocked by the rocks and that is a substantial amount of light lost.


No shadowing...

Thank you for your input!


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## parotet (3 Sep 2015)

Hi Christos

Your lights look ok, your pH profile seems reasonable, it is not a matter of the fert dosing, it is not a substrate issue for sure... I also live in the Mediterranean coast and my tanks are above 28ºC during July and August, and even if some plants suffer quite a lot but, not Monte Carlo that even in these conditions creates a thick carpet in my foreground.

I think I have told this to you before (also to Jaap if I am not wrong), but IME if you are having problems with algae/plants' melting for a long time, it is very difficult to recover the tank without beginning from scratch. Not sure why. Probably the substrate layer is storing bits of algae, spores, dirt, etc. I had this problem with my first and second tank. Before learning how to manage them, I did plenty of things wrong, during months... and I obviously got a lot of melting problems and all sort of algae. Once I learnt how to do it well, I could somehow grow plants but with recurrent problems (mainly BBA and brown diatoms). The curious thing is that in my next tanks, I did exactly the same things I was doing at the late stages of these first tanks and the result was very good. No algae issues.

My question is: is this tank the same you've been reporting during the last months? If so, in order to avoid frustration, I would dismantle it and I would begin from scratch: that means new substrate, new plants and I'm pretty sure you will have more success. It seems that most of what you do is right.

Jordi


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## Christos Ioannou (3 Sep 2015)

Hi Jordi,



parotet said:


> it is very difficult to recover the tank without beginning from scratch.



this is in the TODO list, but until then I would really like to see some improvement in the current tank before investing time/$$$ to a complete restart!
But this is kind of contradictory to your advice anyway! 
Nevertheless, many people show off amazing recoveries from dare I say worse start off points than mine...

I am kind of sold into investing into a better substrate on a reboot - not likely to reuse kitty litter since small plants are a pain to plant into..

Thank you


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## Jaap (3 Sep 2015)

The problem here is that there is no growth, not algae, not nutrient defficiencies, not melting....lack of growth! What could cause lack of growth?

Sent from my SM-P600 using Tapatalk


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## parotet (3 Sep 2015)

Jaap said:


> What could cause lack of growth?


Million of things  As you know this is very complex and even when you are still doing fine, there may be plenty of things still going wrong. 



Christos Ioannou said:


> I would really like to see some improvement in the current tank before investing time/$$$ to a complete restart!


Yup, but sometimes a little investment helps to avoid frustration. Additionally, melting plants, trying new equipment, etc. is not cheap... you just need to get rid of the substrate, give the tank a good cleaning and buy a new substrate and plants. No need to buy new equipment. My larger tank is 60 cm, this make a potential reboot or new layout very cheap compared to larger tanks.



Christos Ioannou said:


> But this is kind of contradictory to your advice anyway!


Not sure... it looks like most of the things you do now are right but IME miraculous recovers are difficult and probably restricted to knowledgeable guys or with tanks that suffered a disaster but were resilient enough. I.e. my sister in law was in charge of my 25 liters tanks during 10 days this summer. She had very accurate instructions on how to top off the tank and how to apply ferts, all this every four days. Amazingly (not only to me, but to everyone that has read the directions) she misinterpreted the information and topped off the tank with ferts! During 24-48h the tank had at least 150x the EI nutrients level. All my shrimps died, all my Rotala red background melted and the rest of the plants (H. pinnatifida, several mosses, Anubias, Bolbitis) survived. There were some spots of BBA, a bit of BGA and GSA... One month later the tank is doing very well. BUT this was a very short stress period and the tank was very healthy before this. Intense WC regime and severe pruning was all I have done. My first tanks never suffered such important disasters, but I had melting and algae problems for one year before I was able to manage them properly... and even if my tank management/maintenance was exactly the same and I was using the same equipment I am using right now, I never achieved such health tanks as I have now. When you will dismantle your tank you will be completely amazed of how much dirt your substrate is holding, even if you siphon it... it's really unbelievable.

Anyway, I may be wrong. Not sure if it is your substrate with plenty of bad stuff or just that your tank is not resilient enough (= very weak from the biological point of view: low plant biomass, low bacterial colony, etc.) to face the minimum problem that arises... Build a solid structure from the beginning and you will get high 

Jordi


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## Jaap (3 Sep 2015)

The thing Jordi is that you are right. Unfortunately what you are saying does not apply for this tank. It did apply for my tank however! This tank has absolutely no reason to not grow better! I cannot find a reason, why! Maybe the lights? 

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


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## Jaap (3 Sep 2015)

The thing Jordi is that you are right. Unfortunately what you are saying does not apply for this tank. It did apply for my tank however! This tank has absolutely no reason to not grow better! I cannot find a reason, why! Maybe the lights?


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## Luis Batista (8 Sep 2015)

What is your GH?

Cumprimentos,
Luís Batista

Sent from my Nokia 3310!


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## Christos Ioannou (8 Sep 2015)

Hi,


> What is your GH?


can try to find that out with SERA test kits (best I can do).

(stupid question)  Does the tap water GH change one week after it is added to the tank?
I can sample tap water straight out of the tap, and water from my tank (wc last Thursday)

Thanks!


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## Luis Batista (8 Sep 2015)

Christos Ioannou said:


> Hi,
> 
> can try to find that out with SERA test kits (best I can do).
> 
> ...


Yes the GH from tap water is lower at the end of the week.
Plants consume the calcium and magnesium in it.
My tap water is almost RO so i have to dose it both.
I start with about 6º dGH and by the end of the week have LEDs than 3 ºdGH

If you can manage that, teste it just to eliminate variables 

Cumprimentos,
Luís Batista

Sent from my Nokia 3310!


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## Christos Ioannou (8 Sep 2015)

Back from the LFS. 

Water readings with Sera products
*
Tank water (last wc was 5 days ago)*
gH: stopped measuring at the 23rd drop of reagent. No reading by that point
kH: 14 

*Tap water*
gH: stopped measuring at the 20th drop of reagent. No reading by that point
kH: 8


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## Luis Batista (8 Sep 2015)

Christos Ioannou said:


> Back from the LFS.
> 
> Water readings with Sera products
> *
> ...



so, what is the GH? I never use liquid gh test, just test strips.
Seeing the KH, you may have something in the tank that raises KH. May be some stones, seriyu stone or something like that?


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## parotet (8 Sep 2015)

Hi all

If I'm not wrong you have to multiply by 17.8 to get the reading in ppm of CaCO3, so about 400 to 480 ppm of CaCO3, anyway very hard water

Jordi


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## Christos Ioannou (8 Sep 2015)

Well GH is >> 23/GH units 
I do have some locally collected stones that could affect kH. Its balsat stone like this.


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## parotet (8 Sep 2015)

Christos Ioannou said:


> Well GH is >> 23/GH units
> I do have some locally collected stones that could affect kH. Its balsat stone like this.


I would bet this hardness come from your tap water. Do you live in a limestone area? I've just seen that some mountain ranges in Cyprus are pure limestone. 

Jordi


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## Christos Ioannou (8 Sep 2015)

parotet said:


> I would bet this hardness come from your tap water. Do you live in a limestone area?


Hi Jordi tap water is mostly from desalination plants. Anyways people here have shown very successful growths/tanks with water described as "liquid rock"


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## parotet (8 Sep 2015)

Christos Ioannou said:


> Anyways people here have shown very successful growths/tanks with water described as "liquid rock"


Yup, I also have liquid rock in my tap and I have been able to grow in it many plants successfully. But to be honest I find the tank management easier now that I cut it with rainwater. It is not really what is called soft water but medium (400-500 microS, KH4, GH10). I could cut it more but I don't want to carry more water. I agree that you can grow plenty of plants with this water but now that I have tried both, I prefer the softer one. 

Jordi


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