# How intelligent are fish?



## Onoma1

Interesting article in the Guardian suggesting some fish have self awareness and intelligence. 

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...mirror?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard


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## DutchMuch

i thought we knew this already?

there was a scientific study (in depth) on this years and years ago, it was a very hot topic on APC for a while but died down. It also tested fish's ability to sense a fish of its own specie (proved true in most cases i believe)


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## zozo




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## BubblingUnder

Onoma1 said:


> some fish have self awareness and intelligence


Not sure you can extrapolate this behaviour from Cleaner fish to fish generally. Cleaner fish need to read subtle clues from other fish in order not to get eaten so nature evolves these traits in preference to others. Many other fish rely on schooling behaviour to survive & so evolution selects for that ability instead.

With the video from Sebastien Moro I agree with his comments about the over exploitation of the oceans. Much of that is due to over population & lack of control over international waters. I understand the piece about cruelty in leaving fish on a ships deck to die but that is a practical & safety issue as you could never stun an individual fish when thousands are caught in a net at once. Interesting stuff though.....


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## tacy k

I'm not sure that this is quite relevant, but over the years I have found tiny fish fry in the sump under my tank (Diamond tetra and Corys), in the bottom of external filters (Corys), and in what I thought was an uninhabited breeding tank (Praecox rainbow). I've reared them and when they were big enough put them back in the tanks with their relatives. The Diamond tetra followed the other Diamond Tetra (but it did get distracted by zebras). And the cory knew it was a cory (although its only alternatives were Clown loaches or Siamensis). The most impressive was the Rainbow who immediately followed the other rainbows, in spite of  there being lots of similar sized fish in the tank; tetras, zebras and hatchets. I'd love to know how they know who they are without ever having seen another fish before in their lives.


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## Mick.Dk

tacy k said:


> I'm not sure that this is quite relevant, but over the years I have found tiny fish fry in the sump under my tank (Diamond tetra and Corys), in the bottom of external filters (Corys), and in what I thought was an uninhabited breeding tank (Praecox rainbow). I've reared them and when they were big enough put them back in the tanks with their relatives. The Diamond tetra followed the other Diamond Tetra (but it did get distracted by zebras). And the cory knew it was a cory (although its only alternatives were Clown loaches or Siamensis). The most impressive was the Rainbow who immediately followed the other rainbows, in spite of  there being lots of similar sized fish in the tank; tetras, zebras and hatchets. I'd love to know how they know who they are without ever having seen another fish before in their lives.


Genetics. ....... Simple matter of "Darwin"........those who tried to mate with wrong species,  didn't get offspring .....*s*


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## sciencefiction

Mick.Dk said:


> Genetics. ....... Simple matter of "Darwin"........those who tried to mate with wrong species,  didn't get offspring .....*s*





BubblingUnder said:


> Not sure you can extrapolate this behaviour from Cleaner fish to fish generally.



A simple 30 minutes research will pretty much prove you wrong. The issue with people is that fish science in terms of fish being sentient beings is only new, a decade or so old. So a lot of minds are stuck in the old thinking. 

Imagine a ship deck full of dead dogs or dead cats....Whats the difference to fish?

How about throwing a harpoon, catching your dog, then cut open while still alive and cook it for dinner for the kids...

Or why not gas your cat with some CO2....big deal, you'll get another cat...

If we count the dead fish we pretend to have kept as pets,each one of us, including myself, has killed more fish than the fingers on their hands over the years. I agree it may not have been intentional but fundamentally it means we have no clue about fish. We're struggling to keep them alive for their full life spans, even after years of experience. Why is it so difficult.....because we just don't know enough. Take octopuses in captivity for example or orca whales, highly intelligent fish that don't last in captivity with the best of efforts...

A lot of the science also points at fish having quite different senses than ours, and they can actually be superior in certain ways at how they perceive the world around them compared to humans .Just because we don't understand them yet, doesn't mean we should treat them with ignorance.

I personally think that people who do not have an open mind towards fish behavior, and are not prepared to  continuously educate themselves on "fish science",  should not keep fish as pets in the first place. If one goes back in history, there were times when some humans thought other humans are lesser than them simply because they looked different.  That sort of thinking is extremely ignorant and inhumane. We're are still doing that...but to animals of all sorts.  I also think that the desire of human beings to be accepted by others hinders their ability to question the validity of morals established by the group.   



Some points an article I randomly selected based on current research:


They [fish] develop cultural traditions and can even recognize themselves and others
They also show signs of Machiavellian intelligence, such as cooperation and reconciliation
Professor Brown said the primary senses of the fish are "just as good" and in some cases better than that of humans.
The level of mental complexity that fish display is on a par with most other vertebrates, while there is mounting evidence that they can feel pain in a manner similar to humans.
_It's high time that use what we know on behalf of fish and other animals who are used and abused in the countless billions. Fish clearly are not things nor disposable objects, but rather sentient and feeling beings, a point stressedi n Farm Sanctuary's “Someone, Not Something” project. _

Source: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...nt-and-emotional-beings-and-clearly-feel-pain


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## DutchMuch

sciencefiction said:


> A simple 30 minutes research will pretty much prove you wrong.


to be fair, your post didnt contain any proof. It contained a lot of... yea.

For those who wont bother to click the article he linked above, this is a summary image of the article.







*To clarify this post its not meant to argue im just saying no evidence was actually provided by the poster despite him not agreeing with another poster and "dissing" him.


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## sciencefiction

DutchMuch said:


> to be fair, your post didnt contain any proof



Neither did yours.


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## DutchMuch

sciencefiction said:


> Neither did yours.


but i wasnt trying to prove anything...? like i said in the fine print. I didnt agree nor disagree with your post.

Simply implied you didn't have any actual evidence to contradict what the posts you quoted said.

I cannot help myself but to comment on how immature of a reply that is either.


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## Mick.Dk

sciencefiction said:


> Take octopuses in captivity for example or orca whales, highly intelligent fish that don't last in captivity with the best of efforts...


- sorry to correct you,   but none of these are fish!!!!!!!


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## sciencefiction

DutchMuch said:


> but i wasnt trying to prove anything...?





Mick.Dk said:


> Genetics. ....... Simple matter of "Darwin".



Do you care to elaborate on the intention of your original post in that case? What I get from your short comment, taking into consideration you made a choice what to type in that sort sentence, is that you've given up on forming your own opinions because someone already has done the thinking on your behalf...and because his name is Darwin, you appear to think your stance is stronger than mine, since I don't quote an established name but I state my own opinion...



DutchMuch said:


> I cannot help myself but to comment on how immature of a reply that is either.





Mick.Dk said:


> - sorry to correct you, but none of these are fish!!!!!!!



Nope. You are certainly right. I'll call them molluscs and water mammals in case someone gets confused that fish can be as smart. 

In relation to being immature, what do you think your comment sounds like since your first defense is a personal insult?


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## Tim Harrison

This subject has always been contentious and emotive, and perhaps will forever remain so. Nevertheless, please try to remain civil and respectful, and especially refrain from comments of a personal nature.


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## sciencefiction

The below article, which is actually debunking the "fish sentience" claim is quite interesting from the perspective of what they use as a contra-argument....

Name of article:
*New paper debunks fish sentience claim

*
Initial paragraph:

_In recent times there has been a concerted push by animal rights activists and a small group of fish behaviour scientists to try and show that fish are conscious, sentient beings, so as to affect changes to fisheries and fish use worldwide. One of the pillars of this belief was a paper published in 2015 by Rey et al. in the Journal of Experimental Biology where the authors *alleged that fish exhibited “emotional fever” through allegedly exhibiting a preference for warmer water after being handled in a net.*_

Debunking the fish sentience science

_However, a new article published in the same journal by researchers at the University of St Andrews in the UK has found the original study was fatally flawed. After first conducting a “null distribution” test that considered fish behaviour in the absence of thermal variation (an important control that was not performed in the original study), the new research found not only was there no evidence of preference for “fever” after netting, instead they found a temporary preference for lower water temperatures. In conclusion the scientists stated *“We observed no evidence for stress induced hyperthermia; across two experiments the stressed fish showed no preference for warmer areas”. 
*
Source: http://www.fishingworld.com.au/news/new-paper-debunks-fish-sentience-claim_

So in other words, paraphrasing the last sentence, the STRESSED fish showed no hyperthermia symptoms....

From the perspective of being a long term fish keeper, that has netted fish many times, it is blatantly evident they get stressed, in some cases for weeks, and not only that, they need time to "forgive" the person that netted them. I once netted all the bunch of platies I had to move them to another tank. I never caught the last one after numerous attempts.  She died within a couple of months of the event of catching all her "friends", having exhibited a severely fearful behaviour, rushing to corners when she saw me. I had no chance of catching her short of draining the tank down and stressing everything else.  It still gets me thinking if she thought I killed all her buddies and she was the last one standing....


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## Tommy

This fish certainly has some intelligence about him


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## Keith GH

I am only talking from 70+ years of Fresh and Salt water fishing experience.
Some are completely stupid I have known them to eat, Cigarette buts, lolly papers, and even chicken bones.  They will continually eat even when their stomach and mouths are full.

Some are extremely  intelligent when fishing for big fish and using a bait 10+kg no matter where you place the hook they will eat up to the hook.  Tagged sharks have been tracked up and down the east coast of Aust and go exactly the same location on the way back to where they when going up the coast.  They know where the food is and how to get it.   

Notice your fish in the tank they will school together at feeding time. 

Keith


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## BubblingUnder

sciencefiction said:


> The issue with people is that fish science in terms of fish being sentient beings is only new, a decade or so old. So a lot of minds are stuck in the old thinking


Humans are part of nature, for us to live something has to die whether it be animal or vegetable. So called 'old minds' haven't forgotten this reality a few prefer to ignore it & pretend their survival doesn't depend on it.



sciencefiction said:


> How about throwing a harpoon, catching your dog, then cut open while still alive and cook it for dinner


You cannot practically stun an entire net full of fish in a heaving boat with a dangerous environment & it would endanger the fishermen to do so. With a dog/cat it is practical to use anaesthetic's to do so. As an individual Angler I catch fish for myself to eat but always stun them before taking them.



sciencefiction said:


> If we count the dead fish we pretend to have kept as pets, each one of us, including myself, has killed more fish than the fingers on their hands over the years. We're struggling to keep them alive for their full life spans


Most fish live longer than their normal lives in captivity especially if you take fry mortality into account with predation & natural disaster greatly reduced & the possibility of medicines to treat common ailments.

Fish die in the natural world as life is 100% fatal. You are not preventing suffering, it's usually by being eaten alive by something with teeth. Would you rather be euthanised by an aquarist or eaten alive in the wild ?  I know which I would prefer...…


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## zozo

BubblingUnder said:


> Humans are part of nature, for us to live something has to die whether it be animal or vegetable. So called 'old minds' haven't forgotten this reality a few prefer to ignore it & pretend their survival doesn't depend on it.



Nice one.  But than again, what is that, Humanity, Humane and Inhumane? It's a term i guess nobody is able to explain what it means. Is it not just what Shakespear used to say "To be or not to be".. Isn't beeing Human not just simply Being.. With a prefix as excuse for supremacy classification?. 

But it indeed comes down to Darwin again, in terms of survival and being.. And surviving is a natural instinct and a very selfish thing, ignorance is simply inevitable in order to survive.


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## Tim Harrison

This is an interesting overview on fish intelligence, for those who haven't already seen it.

I think different species of fish undoubtedly exhibit behaviours that could be interpreted as intelligence. But sometimes it is difficult to determine the difference between behaviour which is innate, genetically hardwired through natural selection, and that which is learned or developed through experience.

I also think that we all have an innate psychological tendency toward anthropomorphism, and attribute human traits, emotions or intentions to none human entities. It's something that has been prevalent throughout human history, and is deeply ingrained in human culture throughout the world.

Morgans Canon is a fundamental precept of comparative (animal) psychology and is perhaps worth bearing in mind when considering questions like...How intelligent are fish ?


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## sciencefiction

BubblingUnder said:


> Most fish live longer than their normal lives in captivity especially if you take fry mortality into account with predation & natural disaster greatly reduced & the possibility of medicines to treat common ailments.



Most fish in in the aquarium trade die prematurely, billions of them. 



BubblingUnder said:


> Would you rather be euthanised by an aquarist or eaten alive in the wild ? I know which I would prefer...



I think I'd rather die free while doing my best trying to escape natural predators
I would also  question the statement that fish left to natural selection have less chance than fish caught for the aquarium trade...Although, the most dangerous enemy to fish are humans, one way or another, through pollution, destroyed habitats, consumption, etc..So in certain cases there is some merit at saying they'll survive longer in the aquarium trade.



BubblingUnder said:


> As an individual Angler I catch fish for myself to eat but always stun them before taking them.



Good to hear. I personally no longer can kill a fish, even to eat. I used to and I still get chills at thinking how I broke some fish's jaw trying to take the hook out. At the time it felt normal, as I was fishing so often. So perspectives can change when you look at fish from a different point of view.



Tim Harrison said:


> I also think that we all have an innate psychological tendency toward anthropomorphism, and attribute human traits, emotions or intentions to none human entities.



I think we are less likely to associate with fish on that level, from all animals we keep as pets. If we were attributing human traits to fish, there would be less dead fish in the sea...But I agree to an extent, fish are no humans and that's the point, we do not understand them because we have a narrow point of view.

Not fish related, but this is my dog below in 2 different state of minds, human like 

First one climbing the stairs, she loves it and gets very excited when she's in front of me.


 

The below one is after I threatened to give her a bath  She hates the thought of it and when I say it, she just goes to bed looking sorry for herself....


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## DutchMuch

sciencefiction said:


> I would also question the statement that fish left to natural selection have less chance than fish caught for the aquarium trade...Although, the most dangerous enemy to fish are humans, one way or another, through pollution, destroyed habitats, consumption, etc..So in certain cases there is some merit at saying they'll survive longer in the aquarium trade.


agree 100% on this one boys.


sciencefiction said:


> I broke some fish's jaw trying to take the hook out


i think this is a life lesson type thing, which is a good topic to discuss in all honesty.

I remember when i was younger, i had JUST started fishing, and was always nervous to catch something because... then what?
Anyway i caught a little blue gill one day and the hook WOULD NOT come out, so i eventually got it but it tore the fish's left cheek open a bit (i was like 12-3 at the time) and i felt really bad. This eventually encouraged me to practice more, and ask people on how to properly remove a hook, i ended up learning several different Non fail methods of removing hooks (including treble hooks which i use frequently but use a wax to dull the back ones of each lure) that i used in the future to fish. This was all before i was in the hobby, so assuming i decided when i originally hooked that first fish, to just not improve myself, then i wouldn't be here today able to support the wildlife thats around now.
Whenever i see pictures of people holding a bass (example) and only holding its lower jaw, i basically want to slap them, because that can easily break there jaw (without you knowing) and you just release them to die. Unfortunately people really dont learn from this without people telling them to support the fish's back end, which in all honestly should be common sense. 


Edit: now that i re-read this it sounds like the butterfly effect haha


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## Mick.Dk

Please do me (and others here, having to read this)   the favour of checking,  what I ACTUALLY commented, instead of immediately jump to some conclusion that I attack your freedom to think in other ways..... .
1/ I answered a specific question  (actually quoting it to make this clear) ! This deliberately had nothing to do with your thinking. Since you seem to want to be allowed your thinking,  I think it would suit you to allow me to have mine,  founded in scientifically accepted scientists,  too. 
2/ I shortly and precisely corrected a part of your statement,  not correct (again quoting,  to avoid misinterpretation. I obviously did not succeed ) !
- and yes,  I actually DO express myself in short,  precise messages,  having considered exactly what to engage in,  and - more important - what not!!
I will not accept being forced into this kind of controversial discussions,  so I expect we can agree to leave it at this....... 
You can believe me or not - but this is really still written with all respect for your freedom of thoughts.


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## sciencefiction

You know, a friend of mine kid's asked my once why do I like fish, they seem so boring just swimming around....They are animal lovers and they own a dog which they adore. At their age I had already kept fish as pets and found them fascinating without having anyone around me that had this kind of interest in fish. 

The other day of friend of mine was telling me the story of her brother bringing his dog all the way from Australia, quarantine, etc..only for the neighbor to drive over it with his car. She was laughing when she was telling the story. I was cringing and didn't want to hear it. She owns two dogs herself, so also an animal lover but not quite.

When I was a kid I found a newly born kitten, freshly thrown in the bin. It could not see, it could not drink milk, etc...My mom was later telling that she only let me keep it because she thought the kitten would die anyway, I tried all possible ways to feed it until I found out it would suck up on boiled potatoes. So for the first few weeks, that's what it ate, boiled potatoes on which it would suck with the only motion of its mouth it knew at that young age. We had that cat for many years, it was the smartest I've ever had or seen since.

My animal stories continued throughout my childhood and adulthood. I saved a bird I found once on which someone had cut its wings for fun.Last year I picked up a baby mouse I found lost on the foot path and brought it over to the field. A few years ago I saved another baby kitten which I gave away.Yesterday I picked up a worth worm that had lost its way on the asphalt road and threw it back in the grass. 

I don't think worth worms have brains but it is us humans that pretend to be smart, so we have duty of care for every creature. And I understand we're not all the same as human beings. Some people have an excessive love for animals which others do not easily understand. But I do understand that we sometimes can't help who we are and can be all different, in many aspects and all the same in others.


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## zozo

What ever the cause.. It's an intelligents stored somewhere..


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## DutchMuch

sciencefiction said:


> I saved a bird I found once on which someone had cut its wings for fun.


i think you mean
"for the satanic ritual the person(s) later attended"

anyone who finds that FUN might as well be completely evil imo


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## Onoma1

I am sorry that I introduced a topic into the forum which has caused such controversy and strong feelings. I read an article in the Guardian and thought that it may be of interest to forum members and that (as in the past) people would point me to some of the scientific evidence, have an informed discussion and that I could piggy back on the knowledge of others. Rather naively, I didn’t think of the emotional power of this question and the deeply held views that people on the forum hold. To those posters to or readers of the thread that have been upset by the topic: please accept my apologies.

I think, however, that this is an important topic. First of all,  I must add a caveat, this isn’t an issue that I have thought about much, I am an occasional fly fisherman, when I was younger enjoyed course fishing (both of these are/were more for the environment than for catching fish which is/was a rare occurrence). I also eat fish.

The debate on the thread took me back to the research literature. I must add in another caveat here, this is not my area of specialism and I am acutely aware of the difficulties associated with literature reviews undertaken by non-specialists!  I am not an Ichthyologist and understand that some people on the forum are.

The conclusions that I drew:

1.      There is a relative paucity of literature or research evidence. Using Scopus I found 9 articles from 2008-19 on “Fish Intelligence” and 35 on “Fish Cognition”.  It was also notable that there was a relative lack of citation and co-citation (many articles had been cited only a handful of times and a key review had only been cited 57 times). This suggests (to a non-specialist) a limited cumulative development of knowledge in this area. Much of the literature that I found related to fish intelligence in the context of catching fish (c.f., Xue, Liu, Zhang and Minami 2008). I can only speculate on the reason for this, however, this may be because this in part because funding for this type of research may be difficult to acquire or that much of the funding may come from interests related to the fishing industry.

2.      Some evidence suggests fish have individual differences or “personality”: “Fish also showed evidence of personality, with significant and repeatable individual differences in foraging, chasing, and habitat use.” (Church and Grant 2019)

3.      A recent review of literature in this area indicated that fish have the level of perception and cognitive abilities on the match of other vertebrates (Brown 2015). “Recent reviews of fish cognition suggest fish show a rich array of sophisticated behaviours. For example, they have excellent long-term memories, develop complex traditions, show signs of Machiavellian intelligence, cooperate with and recognise one another and are even capable of tool use)”  (Brown 2105). I looked at some of the more recent work and picked up an  which looked a spatial capability and learning using experimental work using guppies, _Poecilia reticulata_  which indicated that they could solve complex mazes on the same level as primates and rodents (Lucon-Xiccato, Bisazza 2017). Although female guppies performed better at this than males.  The authors of this piece noted “…growing evidence that bony fish possess cognitive abilities previously thought exclusive to mammals” (Lucon-Xiccato, Bisazza 2017).

4.      Fish feel pain “A review of the evidence for pain perception strongly suggests that fish experience pain in a manner similar to the rest of the vertebrates”. (Brown 2015)

5.      “Cognitive flexibility is one emergent area of research. While only a few species have been studied, it seems fish are capable of inhibiting previously learned behaviours, of reversal learning and display innovative behaviours and problem solving in new situations”.  (Vila Pouca and Brown 2017)

6.       Play: “Since the observation of fishes’ natural behaviour is rare compared to other vertebrates… Because of the diversity and sophistication of behaviours and cognitive abilities of fishes, it seems only reasonable to assume play behaviour also occurs in fish and thus should be further investigated. (Vila Pouca and Brown 2017) They noted a paper which pointed to play behaviour in cichlids.

7.      “Complex social behaviours in fish have been widely acknowledged and reviewed and include social learning and traditions, individual recognition, cooperation and shared intentionality, dominance hierarchies, social status and transitive inference” (Vila Pouca and Brown 2017).

My conclusion is that the scientific knowledge in this area seems limited and emergent, however, strongly points for fish intelligence on the same basis and vertebrates and therefore similar moral and ethical issues related to how we treat them.

I agree with Tim: 


Tim Harrison said:


> This is an interesting overview on fish intelligence, for those who haven't already seen it.
> 
> I think different species of fish undoubtedly exhibit behaviours that could be interpreted as intelligence. But sometimes it is difficult to determine the difference between behaviour which is innate, genetically hardwired through natural selection, and that which is learned or developed through experience.
> 
> I also think that we all have an innate psychological tendency toward anthropomorphism, and attribute human traits, emotions or intentions to none human entities. It's something that has been prevalent throughout human history, and is deeply ingrained in human culture throughout the world.



However, both points could work in relation to any non-human animal. 

I think there is an opportunity and perhaps a moral and ethical need for further research.

One impediment to further research seems to be the difficulty in observing fish behaviour. Brown (2015) noted that most people’s contact with fish is when it’s served them on a plate and that “fish seldom have the opportunity to express their natural behavioural patterns in captivity.”  I think, however, that this community strive to create natural environments in which fish can express their natural behavioural patterns in captivity, perhaps most clearly exemplified in the creation of biotopes. In short we spend months creating naturalistic environments and then months watching fish interact with each other and the environment. Equally, many of the fish that have been studied are fish that we keep (e.g guppies and cichlids) and many of the other fish that we keep haven't been studied. We, therefore, have our own slices of nature or ‘laboratories’ (depending on your view) in which we can observe, test hypothesis, reflect upon and report findings.  While Ichthyologists like Tai Strietman undertake pioneering work in the field, can we make a minor contribution from our armchairs? Could places like the UKAPS site become laboratories in our living rooms to conduct some citizen science?  This may be already occurring in which case please forgive me for my ignorance, however, we “feel more comfortable imagining science as the exclusive preserve of lab-coated professors in well lit, publicly funded laboratories, surrounded by gleaming, expensive apparatus. In truth, though, the history of science is rooted in research carried out by independent devotees, driven by resourcefulness, passion and curiosity.” https://www.theguardian.com/science...cience-how-internet-changing-amateur-research


References

Brown, C., 2015. Fish intelligence, sentience and ethics. _Animal cognition_, _18_(1), pp.1-17.

Church, K.D. and Grant, J.W., 2019. Ideal despotic distributions in convict cichlids (Amatitlania nigrofasciata)? Effects of predation risk and personality on habitat preference. _Behavioural processes_, _158_, pp.163-171.

Lucon-Xiccato, T. and Bisazza, A., 2017. Complex maze learning by fish. _Animal Behaviour_, _125_, pp.69-75.

Vila Pouca, C. and Brown, C., 2017. Contemporary topics in fish cognition and behaviour 16 pp 46-52

Xue, Y., Liu, H., Zhang, X. and Minami, M., 2008, September. Research on Fish Intelligence for Fish Trajectory Prediction Based on Neural Network. In _International Symposium on Neural Networks_ (pp. 364-373). Springer, Berlin, Heidelberg.


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## sciencefiction

Great post Onoma, also pointing how new and unexplored this topic is by scientists, with majority of sources dated within the last few years.



Onoma1 said:


> we “feel more comfortable imagining science as the exclusive preserve of lab-coated professors in well lit, publicly funded laboratories, surrounded by gleaming, expensive apparatus. In truth, though, the history of science is rooted in research carried out by independent devotees, driven by resourcefulness, passion and curiosity.”



I think this is the part that most people fail to realize. As fish keepers we have the resources and time and we must trust in our own ability to observe, understand and form opinions and conclusions, instead of searching and relying on written knowledge all the time to tell us what's in front of our own nose.

I'll quote Einstein on the same:

“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”


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## sciencefiction

Here is an interesting video:



And one more


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## PARAGUAY

Thanks for the question you raiesd Onoma,its a matter of opinions, better to respect members opinions even if we dont always agree(test kits anyone) good to see Tim come in and settle it down


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## zozo

I once filmed it myself that goldfish definitively play.. And challange eachother to perform tasks. Or it might be dismised as mare interpretation. But we all know goldfish can be learned to perform tricks. But it's not only our intervention to present them with tricks and condition them with food. They also try to find diffucults tasks all by them selfs, they recognize it, challange and show off amongst eachother.



Anyway, they all know the easy route over the deeper part of the basket behind the wood. That the first route they found and took to get to the food in the basket. After a while they found more difficult entrees and exits and they like the challange to try that too. Here you can clearly see that one tries to get over the shallowest entree it can find in front of the wood and doesn't succeed. Than an other smaller one shows off how it's done.  And both know the easy way in, but still are determined to take the challange.

ok i conditioned them with providing the challange, but i didn't condition them the try the hard way in. That's something that comes to their mind by own choice.


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## Tim Harrison

I remember that from Mission Bathtub. I also remember them hiding for quite a while after a visit from a heron.


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## sciencefiction

I was just feeding my new betta fish which I only got about 3 weeks ago. He lives in an 80L tub by himself. For that time frame he's learned to come when I lean over and for some reason I always feed him in one corner. So when he sees me he hurries right into the corner. I decided I'd hold my hand in a different spot this time and hovered my hand in the middle instead. He was a bit shocked for a few seconds, just staring at my hand from a distance, sitting in that same corner where I normally drop the food. It took him about a minute and then he finally swam towards my hand, figuring this time it won't fall in the corner. I know some may think it is because of basic instinct, etc..., but aren't we all capable of doing anything just so we are fed?

My clown loaches are used to be fed in the morning and when I walk in, within about 5 minutes they're all out of their sleeping places and bunched up at the top. In the mornings I am in a hurry and I sometimes forget to feed them when I walk into the room, so to they try to remind me they are there waiting for food by splashing. They don't do that immediately, they wait for a while but if they are not getting what they want they start jumping up.

My dog for example, took a few years, but learned that if she hits her empty metal bowl against the wall, I come running filling it up because of the noise.  It may be the water bowl or food bowl, but she does exactly the same when one is empty. It is strange that she wouldn't bark asking for food but has figured her own way. It is very similar to what the clown loaches do, creating sounds to alert the human...

On another hand my cat Shrek, who passed away some years ago, used to open the fridge with his paw, then he'd just sit in front of the open fridge, staring at me. This was his way of communicating he's hungry...He never opened the fridge when we were out.

The aforementioned kitty I raised from a newly born one with boiled potato used to bring me flies for breakfast. I'd wake up in the morning and look up at a very satisfied looking cat staring at me and a few dead flies on my pillow. That's all he could catch living in an apartment but he thought he needed to feed me, rather than the other way around


----------



## zozo

Yes they did, for quite a long time.. I move them around a lot, from indoor to outdoor.. And than devide them over several aqauriums and tubs to over winter indoors. And i always notice that they definitively develop friendship and family bonds.. And show depressed behaivor for a while if separated and show great joy and playfulness if introduced back together. Same behaivor as a little joyfull puppy that is happy mommy is finaly back.

I have a small tnak in the kitchen that is housing about 18 juvenile brothers and sister all born last summer. They never got seperated and together from the day they where born. When i approach the tank all go bonkers beggin for food at the front panel. It's a little bussy aqaurium
 with baby goldfish playing.. Lately i decided to take out the 5 smallest to move to another tank.

Guess what happened?.. The beggin stopped, the playing stoped. They kept quite for more then 2 weeks close to the substrate and even further to the back when i approached the tank. Food wasn't touched and they refused to come to the surface as long as i was in sight. Now two weeks later, they still are a bit nervious when i approach the tank.

They definitively didn't like the experience of what i did and i only seperated them all 5 were caught and taken out in 30 secends during feeding them.
And the rest noticed and it took them a while for the instinct that live goes on taking over again.


----------



## PARAGUAY

A old Springwatch series had underwater cameras studying Three Spine Sticklebacks.A male had started to make the nest/nursery to attract females in the worst possible place in a open sandy area no plants ,All sorts of problems followed boisterous bigger fish aided by the current scattered the nursery in the confusion he tried to round up the fry eventually having to rebuild the nest.Other males tried to take it over,the threat of a Perch or Pike passing by always there. Not very intelligent but yet its the nature of a male stickleback defending something super confident with a aggresive nature, they would probably defend however foolhardy their fry against well probably a Pike.


----------



## zozo

PARAGUAY said:


> A old Springwatch series had underwater cameras studying Three Spine Sticklebacks.A male had started to make the nest/nursery to attract females in the worst possible place in a open sandy area no plants ,All sorts of problems followed boisterous bigger fish aided by the current scattered the nursery in the confusion he tried to round up the fry eventually having to rebuild the nest.Other males tried to take it over,the threat of a Perch or Pike passing by always there. Not very intelligent but yet its the nature of a male stickleback defending something super confident with a aggresive nature, they would probably defend however foolhardy their fry against well probably a Pike.



Accasionaly i kept sticklebacks in aqauriums. They are absolutely fearless, come out to inspect anything that moves to check if its eddible. If it is no mater the size they try to rip it appart. 

This was my last sticky living it last days all alone in a 125 littre tub. No problem to find it nor to catch it. Curiousity kills the cat..


----------



## sciencefiction




----------



## zozo

Kinda reminds me of that old documentary "Animals are Beautiful People" from 1974 

Tho, don't get lost in the video editing to add a little more drama to the story.


----------



## sciencefiction




----------



## sciencefiction

Always clean your paws before touching the fish


----------



## sciencefiction

_"One of the divers noticed that the fish was staring at a small rock and then staring at her. The fish moved back and forth to her and then to the rock in front of her hands. The fish was acting so oddly that the diver beside her began to film the fish instead of looking for whale sharks and hammerheads. It first appeared that the fish liked the diver. Eventually realizing that the fish was returning to the same rock repeatedly, she wondered if something under the rock was making the fish excited.

 As she reached out to lift the rock, the fish darted in front of it and stared intently. To her surprise, as she lifted the rock, she found a baby octopus underneath. This was a thrilling sight for the divers and it was obvious that the fish had seen or smelled the creature hiding beneath the rock. It was also possible that the octopus had been eating something that smelled interesting to the Mexican hogfish. The octopus was far too big for the hogfish to eat, so it merely watched as the divers filmed it out in the open. Fish become used to divers very quickly and they often understand that humans will not try to harm them, but to try to communicate with a diver and signal to a diver that something is under a rock would require more complex thought and understanding than we once believed they were capable of.

If the fish was truly hoping that the diver would lift the rock, that’s even more surprising. Yet, we see this sort of behavior constantly between groupers and scuba divers who spear hunt for lionfish. The groupers will actually locate the lionfish and stare into the hiding spots until the diver responds. The more we pay attention to the animals around us, the more we see that we have a lot to learn about them."_


----------



## zozo




----------



## sciencefiction

Strange that with so many fish keepers a thread about fish intelligence lasted only 3 pages....What do most people keep fish for? Aesthetics? Home decoration?  There is a disturbing documentary on Netflix called Seaspiracy...It seems everyone feels better not to know anything about fish and what happens to fish in the wild and also in aquariums, mass murder.....But that's not on topic. 

I just came across this interesting experiment with archerfish below. ....It provides evidence that some fish are quite capable of recognising faces and remember them, which I somehow already knew .....My clown loaches splash water at me almost every day....









						These water-spitting fish can remember human faces
					

By squirting streams of water at images on a screen, archerfish show themselves to be quick studies in object recognition study.




					www.nationalgeographic.com
				




_What if the next time you had to take a test, the teacher asked you to spit at the correct answer?

Don’t laugh. In a recent study, archerfish proved they could identify human faces by squirting a stream of water at the correct image on a screen_.
_In the wild, archerfish use their spit cannons to knock insects and other prey into the water so they can gulp them down. But in the lab, researchers used food to train these mangrove-loving fish to apply their sharpshooting abilities to an experiment on animal cognition. (Related: How archerfish squirt water with stunning accuracy.)

Tricks for treats, in other words.

“Fish are often considered to have short memories or have only enough intelligence to be capable of very basic tasks,” says Cait Newport, a marine biologist at the University of Oxford and lead author of the study. “However, even basic tasks like finding food or mates, or escaping from predators, can require memory and considerable intelligence.”

The new study, for instance, revealed that archerfish could be trained to recognize a three-dimensional rendering of one human face compared with another, different face. What’s more, the fish were able to continue to recognize that image even when the face was rotated by 30, 60, and 90 degrees, from a frontal view to a profile._

I love the below quote from the same article.... I wonder how many human beings would survive in the wild?.....I think our understanding of "intelligence" is twisted, while at the same time we kill and destroy and call that part of intelligent existence.
_*“However, even basic tasks like finding food or mates, or escaping from predators, can require memory and considerable intelligence.”*_


----------



## MichaelJ

sciencefiction said:


> I love the below quote from the same article.... I wonder how many human beings would survive in the wild?.....I think our understanding of "intelligence" is twisted, while at the same time we kill and destroy and call that part of intelligent existence.


Interesting. It really depends on the definition of intelligence. If you use the metrics of survivability and sustainability for instance... Fish have been around for 500-600 million years... algae for 1.5 - 2 billion years - without destroying the planet. Humans are a mere aberration on those timescales and are not showing a very high degree of intelligence by those metrics so far.

Cheers,
Michael


----------



## whimm

My Betta just finished re-reading Hegel.


----------



## zozo

sciencefiction said:


> “However, even basic tasks like finding food or mates, or escaping from predators, can require memory and considerable intelligence.”



We, humans, are rather confused creatures, All we do is babble about consciousness and Intelligence without knowing nor understanding what both actually are.

Even nowadays atheist scientists rather still act like "God created man in his own image. . ."


----------



## sparkyweasel

I highly recommend '_What a Fish Knows'_ by Jonathan Balcombe for a lot of information about fish intelligence, derived from science and presented in an accessible way.


----------



## AlecF

Keith GH said:


> I am only talking from 70+ years of Fresh and Salt water fishing experience.
> Some are completely stupid I have known them to eat, Cigarette buts, lolly papers, and even chicken bones.  They will continually eat even when their stomach and mouths are full.
> 
> Some are extremely  intelligent when fishing for big fish and using a bait 10+kg no matter where you place the hook they will eat up to the hook.  Tagged sharks have been tracked up and down the east coast of Aust and go exactly the same location on the way back to where they when going up the coast.  They know where the food is and how to get it.
> 
> Notice your fish in the tank they will school together at feeding time.
> 
> Keith


I've seen humans smoke cigarette butts.


----------



## zozo

BTW, I'm not sure but I believe intelligence is a human invention/model... And I believe all that lives is conscious. And since from the plants up all the way to higher life forms, all are symbiotic life forms... So I tend to believe the missing link is, consciousness might be something collective... 

The Conscious Individual is a collective energetic memory...  I can feel that in my big toe.

This one I give you from the heart...


----------



## jaypeecee

zozo said:


> And I believe all that lives is conscious.


Hi Marcel (@zozo)

This is a topic that interests me greatly. I'd love to pursue this further sometime. I may even have your email address somewhere.

JPC


----------



## zozo

jaypeecee said:


> Hi Marcel (@zozo)
> 
> This is a topic that interests me greatly. I'd love to pursue this further sometime. I may even have your email address somewhere.
> 
> JPC



Another Off Topic Chit Chat topic maybe?....  Wouldn't that be more fun?... 



But you can PM me anytime, I'll get a notification...


----------



## MichaelJ

zozo said:


> I'm not sure but I believe intelligence is a human invention/model...


It really is... The concept is meaningless without a rigid definition that everyone agrees upon... which is almost impossible... Like the definition of _life_.... or lean dosing ... oh wait... that was a lesson from a different thread 

Cheers,
Michael


----------



## jaypeecee

zozo said:


> But you can PM me anytime, I'll get a notification...


Hi Marcel (@zozo)

I'll do that.

JPC


----------



## sciencefiction

MichaelJ said:


> Interesting. It really depends on the definition of intelligence. If you use the metrics of survivability and sustainability for instance... Fish have been around for 500-600 million years... algae for 1.5 - 2 billion years - without destroying the planet. Humans are a mere aberration on those timescales and are not showing a very high degree of intelligence by those metrics so far.
> 
> Cheers,
> Michael



Yes, exactly, depends on the definition of intelligence. One thing to keep in mind is that the human species set the definitions. Yet, we are not "intelligent" enough to do so in my opinion.


----------



## Wolf6

sciencefiction said:


> Strange that with so many fish keepers a thread about fish intelligence lasted only 3 pages....What do most people keep fish for? Aesthetics? Home decoration?  There is a disturbing documentary on Netflix called Seaspiracy...It seems everyone feels better not to know anything about fish and what happens to fish in the wild and also in aquariums, mass murder.....But that's not on topic.
> 
> I just came across this interesting experiment with archerfish below. ....It provides evidence that some fish are quite capable of recognising faces and remember them, which I somehow already knew .....My clown loaches splash water at me almost every day....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These water-spitting fish can remember human faces
> 
> 
> By squirting streams of water at images on a screen, archerfish show themselves to be quick studies in object recognition study.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nationalgeographic.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _What if the next time you had to take a test, the teacher asked you to spit at the correct answer?
> 
> Don’t laugh. In a recent study, archerfish proved they could identify human faces by squirting a stream of water at the correct image on a screen_.
> _In the wild, archerfish use their spit cannons to knock insects and other prey into the water so they can gulp them down. But in the lab, researchers used food to train these mangrove-loving fish to apply their sharpshooting abilities to an experiment on animal cognition. (Related: How archerfish squirt water with stunning accuracy.)
> 
> Tricks for treats, in other words.
> 
> “Fish are often considered to have short memories or have only enough intelligence to be capable of very basic tasks,” says Cait Newport, a marine biologist at the University of Oxford and lead author of the study. “However, even basic tasks like finding food or mates, or escaping from predators, can require memory and considerable intelligence.”
> 
> The new study, for instance, revealed that archerfish could be trained to recognize a three-dimensional rendering of one human face compared with another, different face. What’s more, the fish were able to continue to recognize that image even when the face was rotated by 30, 60, and 90 degrees, from a frontal view to a profile._
> 
> I love the below quote from the same article.... I wonder how many human beings would survive in the wild?.....I think our understanding of "intelligence" is twisted, while at the same time we kill and destroy and call that part of intelligent existence.
> _*“However, even basic tasks like finding food or mates, or escaping from predators, can require memory and considerable intelligence.”*_


This isnt at all surprising, the animal needs to be able to learn to recognise shapes/colour combinations that result in food when squirting. Some insects may prove slightly poisonous or dangerous, others particularly rich in nutrients. I dont know why they used human faces but I suspect them to be able to discern insects with much more smaller differerences too. It wont see the faces as human though, just a combination of shapes and colour that results in food. Complex behaviour can often be explained from much simpler rules then people think. I always worry when I see research drawing all sorts of conclusions, often saying more about the beliefs the scientists hold then the actual research. Interesting topic though. It links closely to AI for me. When is something intelligent. If it has learned a few simple rules really well? Or when It can adapt to a multitude of different scenario's? Or both? This is where narrow ai and general ai come from. The same would we be able to apply to animals. Many will possess a form of amazing narrow intelligence, but lack the general intelligence we usually use when  we talk about intelligence. Orcas are clearly more capable of general intelligence, but is that enough... a discussion without a true answer I fear.


----------



## sciencefiction

Wolf6 said:


> Orcas are clearly more capable of general intelligence, but is thar enough... a discussion without a true answer I fear.


I will answer your dilemma with another question. Would the world be better off if human intelligence is identical to that of orcas? Would there be less or more fish in the sea?


----------



## Wolf6

sciencefiction said:


> I will answer your dilemma with another question. Would the world be better off if human intelligence is identical to that of orcas? Would there be less or more fish in the sea?


Do you mean orcas as intelligent as humans or humans as intelligent as orcas?


----------



## zozo

Wolf6 said:


> the beliefs the scientists hold then the actual research



Atheistic scientists are going to hate you for such a statement... Because most if not all of them reject belief and are convinced not to do so, there is no room for it, but only use the rational methodology, named science. Any hypothesis can be disputed and changed at any time if you have solid proof. Without it, there couldn't be any progression... And in this model, they fail to admit that they actually believe in the progression of science. But are we really progressing at any?

Destroy to proclaim progression?

I'm not so sure about the Christian or affiliated religious scientists and what their pursuit in science is. But from what I understand so far these religions basically do not believe in progression, it actually believes in regression/decline. Since all was created in perfection by a God and from the day mankind was rejected from paradise all went downhill. But don't worry, whatever you do you can't change a thing everything is already made perfect. Simply believe and have faith to leave it all in the hands of God and it will be alright? Then why and what do you want to know? To underscore what you already believe?

Destroy to proclaim the faith/decline?

Meanwhile, intellect is the ability to think, reason and understand?

Confusing isn't it? I guess that's what we all are and likely forever will be...


----------



## Wolf6

zozo said:


> Atheistic scientists are going to hate you for such a statement... Because most if not all of them reject belief and are convinced not to do so, there is no room for it, but only use the rational methodology, named science. Any hypothesis can be disputed and changed at any time if you have solid proof. Without it, there couldn't be any progression... And in this model, they fail to admit that they actually believe in the progression of science. But are we really progressing at any?
> 
> Destroy to proclaim progression?
> 
> I'm not so sure about the Christian or affiliated religious scientists and what their pursuit in science is. But from what I understand so far these religions basically do not believe in progression, it actually believes in regression/decline. Since all was created in perfection by a God and from the day mankind was rejected from paradise all went downhill. But don't worry, whatever you do you can't change a thing everything is already made perfect. Simply believe and have faith to leave it all in the hands of God and it will be alright? Then why and what do you want to know? To underscore what you already believe?
> 
> Destroy to proclaim the faith/decline?
> 
> Meanwhile, intellect is the ability to think, reason and understand?
> 
> Confusing isn't it? I guess that's what we all are and likely forever will be...


I didn't mean religious beliefs, but personal beliefs. Or a subconscious confirmation bias affecting the attributed reasoning for seeing a particular effect, when there could be alternative explanations. Good scientists recognise their own personal beliefs and will most definitely formulate their hypothesis and research plan in a way that avoids these beliefs affecting the outcome or attributed explanations. However good scientists are seemingly becoming rare, more and more research seems to be done with a desired outcome in mind. The party paying for the research determining the outcome, or social pressure.


----------



## zozo

Wolf6 said:


> I didn't mean religious beliefs, but personal beliefs. Or a subconscious confirmation bias affecting the attributed reasoning for seeing a particular effect, when there could be alternative explanations. Good scientists recognise their own personal beliefs and will most definitely formulate their hypothesis and research plan in a way that avoids these beliefs affecting the outcome or attributed explanations. However good scientists are seemingly becoming rare, more and more research seems to be done with a desired outcome in mind. The party paying for the research determining the outcome, or social pressure.



I know what you mean, and I had quite a few heated discussions with alleged hardcore scientists at other forums and till now they all kinda had an allergic reaction to the word belief in general. Professionally they all claim not to do so because in their general consensus science is a methodology and has no room for believing, it would be against the moral ethics of science.

But in a psychological context, you actually can't relate belief and faith to specific topics. It is deeply rooted in the human psyche and we use it in all we do. You can put belief in a specific context such as religion... Explained as, having confidence and or faith in the correctness of a specific system, which in this case is religion. 

Then if you would put belief in a professional, scientific or personal or whatever context it basically comes down to the exact same explanation.


----------



## zozo

sciencefiction said:


> Yes, exactly, depends on the definition of intelligence. One thing to keep in mind is that the human species set the definitions. Yet, we are not "intelligent" enough to do so in my opinion.



It's actually rather irrelevant how intelligent they are... All we need to do is give them the benefit of the doubt and start believing that they are conscious, able to relate and have emotions. And then stop being afraid of being accused of making fables and or trying to humanize animal behaviour.

Because the term Humanizing is a fallacy simply because we are animals too... All the babbling and so-called reasoning we do doesn't make us something else.

Recognizing animal behaviour is like looking in a mirror.


----------



## sciencefiction

zozo said:


> Meanwhile, intellect is the ability to think, reason and understand?


Yes, and as far as I am concerned, even my dog can do that....
My dog may not be able to talk the way we do but she surely understands quite a few things.  For example, since I started working from home, she has figured that me on the keyboard is a no,no and does not approach me until I get away from the desk.  The moment I put the work stuff away, she comes up begging for attention. It is not because I gave out to her at any point...she just somehow knows I can't give her attention.
We also never thought her for example not to beg while eating but she somehow figured that if she stays in her bed while we eat, she gets something in the end as a reward.  Most times she even heads to her bed when she smells the cooking....and waits there until we finish eating. She started doing this a decade ago, while she was still a puppy.  She also knows how to tell me that her bowl is empty, which is by hitting it off the wall to make a sound. Her bowls are metal so instead of barking, she does that....
She's also learned other stuff and words by herself, without anyone teaching her and she keeps learning. For example, she loves playing with a ball. 
And one day I figured that if I tell her, play with your blanket and point with my head towards the blanket, she actually does just that. She goes and hides her ball in her blanket pretending she doesn't know where it is, then searches for it....
If I say the word enough, she goes into hiding with her ball because she understands what the word means,  that I want her to stop playing with her ball. I didn't teach her any of that on purpose. I say to her enough for many other things and she knows exactly what it means each time, not just in relation to playing with her ball.
In the evenings, if we mention something about being tired and sleepy or that if any of us is going to bed, she does the same, she heads to bed before we even manage to get up...
She's aware of what we're saying or our face expressions all the time and adjusts her behaviour to that. She listens and she learns all the time. And the rare times that I thought her something on purpose, she picks it up in no more than 10 mins and pretty much remembers it for life. Even I fail at that quite so often 
And if you haven't seen a laughing dog, then you don't know anything


----------



## Wolf6

One of the characteristics of intelligence is the ability to plan ahead and understand the principles of delayed reward. This would mean dogs don't fall into that category, they may learn that they are not allowed to do something but there won't be an understanding. Wolves however have shown to be able to plan far ahead and even be capable of planned betrayal (female wolf switching sides suddenly and eloping with a young male wolf while her pack was chasing away the young male intruder). But again this could be our interpretation of much simpler behaviors. 
Even human behavior is more often unintelligent then intelligent. This makes our judgement prone to error as well


----------



## sciencefiction

Wolf6 said:


> One of the characteristics of intelligence is the ability to plan ahead and understand the principles of delayed reward. This would mean dogs don't fall into that category, they may learn that they are not allowed to do something


I disagree. Dogs definitely understand delayed reward without being given out to or threatened or given repeated instructions what to do in a certain situation.  My dog just started doing the things she does, like waiting in her bed to be given a treat. Absolutely no one taught her that or told her off at any time. She just never begged at the table....She also goes on her good behaviour for things other than food, for a massage for example. She loves spine massage. In fact massage is her number one treat, then her red ball, then treats like human food.

Also, there've been many other interesting examples, like lately she had to have one of these things around her neck to prevent her from licking herself. She has a bad chronic anal gland infection we're fighting at the moment which does not look good....A different topic.....  Anyway, she figured how to take this thing off in about 2 hours. And not just that, after she came to me  without it wagging tail all happy, and I put it back on, she hid straight into her bed, it is a covered  crate, and started taking it off. I followed her and looked in and  I saw how she put her paw into the side where the sticky sticker is and pushed out with the paw until it got unstuck.
When she was a puppy, if she was to have an accident, she would hide when doing it, like walk into another room. She thought if we don't see her, it's not her.... Now that she knows better, if she has an accident, which is very rare, she would not do it in any room or on the floor but straight into her bed. She has 2 beds so I'd notice either by the smell or if she stops going to one of the beds. She thinks if it's her own bed, she's allowed. And obviously, she would only do it because she has no other choice.

She's now nearly 10 and I was at the vet just 10 mins ago with an emergency. She can't pass poop. She's been like that on and off for 2 months at least, many medications, 2 manual flushes under anaesthetic to clean her anal glands and stuck poop, many other vet visits and manual anal inspections and a lot of pain. She also had a massive allergic reaction of one of the meds they gave her 2 weeks ago and went downhill from there, it was when she got the fistulas too,  started puking, went off her food and also NOT pooping for 7 days straight.   The anal glands are fistulated now, which are holes literally, so poop pours out from many holes inside her and out, and she has abnormal tissue inside the anal glands which they say might be cancerous. They want them removed or put the dog to sleep. Removal of anal glands may mean incontinent dog and again a lot of pain.....And they can't give her anti-inflammatory at the moment, which is what she needs but the steroids would not let the fistulas repair themselves, if her body is healthy enough to do so actually because they think she's so bad, she's got no hope of that, and then again she nearly died from the non-steroidal anti-inflammatory 2 weeks ago, so that's off the table too. It's like they have only 2 kind of options for everything? Put to sleep or invasive operation or one steroid against an allergic reaction? I don't get get it. Why is medicine so limited?  And right now I don't know what to do. She's half stable now for tonight at least.....If anyone has any advise, any alternatives, please shout.

Yeah, I rumbled on but I am upset.

Edit: And I keep telling myself my problems are nothing compared to some other people's One of my best friends lost her father to cancer, her sister to suicide in the space of 3 months 3 years ago. Then a year later her mother got diagnosed with cancer, barely pulling through with permanent disability. And 2 days ago my friend's son of 22 years of age died by an accident. So my sick dog of 10 years is a bleak experience in comparison.....


----------



## KirstyF

sciencefiction said:


> Yeah, I rumbled on but I am upset.


So sorry to hear about your troubles and still troubles for you regardless of other peoples issues. Best wishes are with you. Hope she pulls through ok.


----------



## sciencefiction

Thanks Kirsty


----------



## Onoma1

Sorry to hear about your dog. I hope the situation improves.


----------



## Wolf6

sciencefiction said:


> I disagree. Dogs definitely understand delayed reward without being given out to or threatened or given repeated instructions what to do in a certain situation.  My dog just started doing the things she does, like waiting in her bed to be given a treat. Absolutely no one taught her that or told her off at any time. She just never begged at the table....She also goes on her good behaviour for things other than food, for a massage for example. She loves spine massage. In fact massage is her number one treat, then her red ball, then treats like human food.
> 
> Also, there've been many other interesting examples, like lately she had to have one of these things around her neck to prevent her from licking herself. She has a bad chronic anal gland infection we're fighting at the moment which does not look good....A different topic.....  Anyway, she figured how to take this thing off in about 2 hours. And not just that, after she came to me  without it wagging tail all happy, and I put it back on, she hid straight into her bed, it is a covered  crate, and started taking it off. I followed her and looked in and  I saw how she put her paw into the side where the sticky sticker is and pushed out with the paw until it got unstuck.
> When she was a puppy, if she was to have an accident, she would hide when doing it, like walk into another room. She thought if we don't see her, it's not her.... Now that she knows better, if she has an accident, which is very rare, she would not do it in any room or on the floor but straight into her bed. She has 2 beds so I'd notice either by the smell or if she stops going to one of the beds. She thinks if it's her own bed, she's allowed. And obviously, she would only do it because she has no other choice.
> 
> She's now nearly 10 and I was at the vet just 10 mins ago with an emergency. She can't pass poop. She's been like that on and off for 2 months at least, many medications, 2 manual flushes under anaesthetic to clean her anal glands and stuck poop, many other vet visits and manual anal inspections and a lot of pain. She also had a massive allergic reaction of one of the meds they gave her 2 weeks ago and went downhill from there, it was when she got the fistulas too,  started puking, went off her food and also NOT pooping for 7 days straight.   The anal glands are fistulated now, which are holes literally, so poop pours out from many holes inside her and out, and she has abnormal tissue inside the anal glands which they say might be cancerous. They want them removed or put the dog to sleep. Removal of anal glands may mean incontinent dog and again a lot of pain.....And they can't give her anti-inflammatory at the moment, which is what she needs but the steroids would not let the fistulas repair themselves, if her body is healthy enough to do so actually because they think she's so bad, she's got no hope of that, and then again she nearly died from the non-steroidal anti-inflammatory 2 weeks ago, so that's off the table too. It's like they have only 2 kind of options for everything? Put to sleep or invasive operation or one steroid against an allergic reaction? I don't get get it. Why is medicine so limited?  And right now I don't know what to do. She's half stable now for tonight at least.....If anyone has any advise, any alternatives, please shout.
> 
> Yeah, I rumbled on but I am upset.
> 
> Edit: And I keep telling myself my problems are nothing compared to some other people's One of my best friends lost her father to cancer, her sister to suicide in the space of 3 months 3 years ago. Then a year later her mother got diagnosed with cancer, barely pulling through with permanent disability. And 2 days ago my friend's son of 22 years of age died by an accident. So my sick dog of 10 years is a bleak experience in comparison.....


Let's continue our interesting discussion at a moment when this is all past, and for now I wish you the wisdom to make the best choice for your dog... as you might be able to tell we too have a dog and it's almost never a situation of 'this is the moment to put them to sleep'. Our previous dog had DM, which is kind of like ALS for dogs in that they lose control over their hind legs. At first it's just them being a bit clumsy and walking funny and progresses into falling and being unable to walk. The only upside to that affliction was that is was painless and that for once it was clear when the day had come. He didn't want to go walkies anymore, something that had never happened before. And when we did he just wanted to go home, just standing there looking at us. No more joy. Nobody can tell you when the time for your dog has come, though vets can give hints at what they think. In the end it's down to our guess at their overall happiness under the affliction and operations they need to undergo. I wish you the best and you have my sympathy!


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## zozo

sciencefiction said:


> I don't get get it. Why is medicine so limited? And right now I don't know what to do. She's half stable now for tonight at least.....If anyone has any advise, any alternatives, please shout.



The thing is with lots of animals if the trauma isn't acute but a slow-growing process they are extremely good at hiding discomfort and pain. Then by the time, slow lingering diseases in soft tissue submerge with noticeably effect on behaviour and comfort it very often is already too far gone and many times beyond any practical help such as (extremely expensive) surgery with a high risk of going from bad to worse. Then all there is left is medication for symptom control and pain relief and then you can't do anything else than wait and hope for the best. 

If she isn't in too much pain and still has a healthy appetite then there is a will to live and this can go a long way.

It's very painful to lose a beloved friend and even more if you have to be the one to decide when her life is no longer life worth living. That's one of the toughest choices to make. 

There wasn't a day in my life that I wasn't surrounded by dogs and cats etc.  I know the situation and feeling and can only say from first-hand experience nobody can tell you what to do.

Best wishes to you and your friend.


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## sciencefiction

zozo said:


> If she isn't in too much pain and still has a healthy appetite then there is a will to live and this can go a long way



Thanks Marcel. I decided to take one day at a time. She was ok yesterday and managed to go to the toilet, also ate all her food.  I incorporated some home remedies to help her immune system and ordered some very expensive freeze dried food. Her stomach was destroyed from the pile of antibiotics they gave her, hence the vomiting issues, so she's also on pro-biotics But surprisingly, she was really hungry yesterday, which is good. She also hasn't vomited in a week and I'll be hoping for a miracle literally because the vet said she will not recover her normal functions, she's lost the elasticity around the anal glands, tissue is abnormal and stiff, and the fistulas won't repair as she's too far gone. She's probably right but I can't make another decision yet. She was not in pain yesterday I think. We played ball as well for a good bit in the evening and then she fell asleep happily while trying to lick my hand.


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## zozo

sciencefiction said:


> I decided to take one day at a time.



That's the best approach... Love and a will to live with a healthy appetite and diet can do little miracles. It might not heal, but it can improve and stabilize. And all we can do is hope for it without any guarantees. As long as it doesn't get worse then you have a dog with a handicap, then help her as best as you can to relieve her difficulties. And pain is an unmeasurable factor but it can be something you can learn to live with if there is no way to remedy it. Don't drive yourself mad with doom scenario's and stay positive. She will smell when you are under stress and this won't help her.

Something that might sound insensitive, but there is a time for us all to go one day you can't do much about it. When it's time its time. Stressing out about it is never a relief and not a good time it only makes it worse and more painful. Controlling stress is a thought process/switch and state of mind. Easy to say and I can't tell you how to do that... In my case, I learned it the hard way from experiences at a young age. And I never want that feeling again so I think it away in a positive sense.

Anyway, something very healthy for dogs, cats, all animals and also us are the Omega-3 oil supplements or even better freshly cooked. That might help... Not the best topic for this thread to tell where it comes from. So I leave it at that.

Good luck!... 😘


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## sciencefiction

zozo said:


> Anyway, something very healthy for dogs, cats, all animals and also us are the Omega-3 oil supplements or even better freshly cooked. That might help... Not the best topic for this thread to tell where it comes from. So I leave it at that.


Thanks Marcel.

Any recommendations what exactly to get for dogs? PM is fine if not ok in the thread. I was thinking the same lines, try the natural remedies. I already started her on some stuff I have around the house. I give her turmeric in the food, dry probiotic and for the last 3 nights she got juice from fermented vegetables. I ferment them myself for the same reason, as they're very healthy for the gut and immune system. She also loves coconut oil, so I give her a bit of that too, as it is a natural anti-inflammatory like the turmeric. So far fingers crossed. She pooped 5 times this evening, twice this morning, and just until 5 mins ago she ran around after the ball like a lunatic.  I also  put some vitamin E on the glands outside, and another herbal ointment, to help the healing process, if it wants to start.....Either way, I think it can't hurt, given the prognosis I was given..... And hopefully the new food arrives soon....

P.S. Forgot to feed the fish for 3 days


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## zozo

All oily fish contain omega 3 fats.






						Omega 3 fats
					

Omega 3 fats are essential for good heart health. Read about the foods that contain them, how much to eat, and why they're good for you.




					www.heartuk.org.uk
				




When she likes it, it is a good option to put in the diet. 






						Can Dogs Eat Fish? | What Types of Fish Can Dogs Eat? | PetMD
					

Can dogs eat fish, and if so, what types of fish can dogs eat? Dr. Leslie Gillette, DVM, MS, explains the benefits and risk of feeding fish to your dog.



					www.petmd.com
				




They are not only intelligent but darn healthy too...


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## sciencefiction

zozo said:


> Something that might sound insensitive, but there is a time for us all to go one day you can't do much about it. When it's time its time. Stressing out about it is never a relief and not a good time it only makes it worse and more painful. Controlling stress is a thought process/switch and state of mind. Easy to say and I can't tell you how to do that... In my case, I learned it the hard way from experiences at a young age. And I never want that feeling again so I think it away in a positive sense.



I just wanted to say, it is not insensitive to me at all.  It is just that I always had it in my mind that she would live to 16 or so,  because she's a Jack Russell. Well, maybe that's not her story. The only story I want to say is that she has taught me to be a good human being. And the most important thing of all is, that no one, not even the people which have been the closest to me for my entire live, have looked me in the eye with such honesty and trust, and love. She is a pure soul. Her name is Angie.


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## sciencefiction

Hey, Happy Christmas and Holidays to everyone.

I just wanted to say that my dog Angie has been ok since. She's getting her spirits back and goes to the toilet regularly, so far so good, and it's been the longest period without a vet visit in months.
She's been on her new food which I had mentioned, some cooked stuff like liver, chicken, salmon. She's taking laxative, which is the only thing I need the vet for now, to prevent her stools from getting too hard, also DMG, which is another name for B15, an immune booster and natural immunomodulator, also B12 because I suspect an autoimmune disease related to lack of it from what I researched, CBD oil to help pain and hopefully her immune system as well, and my home made probiotics for her digestive issues and vomiting. I also put an ointment on her after we go out on the affected area from coconut oil, CBD oil and vitamin E, which I mix up myself, for healing and antiseptic properties.

She seems happy, plays ball and runs around every day, and she does not seem to be in any pain at all these days. I hope it continues. The vet prediction that I'd be back in no more than 2 days has not materialized yet but it's still early days...I hope I am not getting hopeful too soon....She'll never be 100% again because her fistulas can't close up I think or even if they do, they can open backup but right now it doesn't seem to make any difference to her daily stuff and if I can manage it, it's what matters.


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## MirandaB

sciencefiction said:


> She seems happy, plays ball and runs around every day, and she does not seem to be in any pain at all these days. I hope it continues. The vet prediction that I'd be back in no more than 2 days has not materialized yet but it's still early days...I hope I am not getting hopeful too soon....She'll never be 100% again because her fistulas can't close up I think or even if they do, they can open backup but right now it doesn't seem to make any difference to her daily stuff and if I can manage it, it's what matters.


Happy Christmas and I'm so pleased there's a positive update


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## KirstyF

That’s great news. 😊


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## sciencefiction




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## sciencefiction

We walked to the car yesterday, which is kept in a parking, just to check on it as we hadn't used it for a while. 
When Angie saw the car she got so excited thinking we're going somewhere so we actually had to, unplanned trip to a natural park  Healthy spirit in a healthy body, right?


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## sciencefiction




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## MirandaB

I don't know how I missed your last post @sciencefiction but look at her go,she's loving life and looking very well 😍


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## sciencefiction

Thanks Miranda and all. She's been ok lately. Fingers crossed.


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## zozo




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## seedoubleyou

Not sure on the science behind all this. But if you’ve ever had to chase one around hardscape in the hopes of removing it. Then they’re pretty clever if you ask me.


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## mort

I love jawfish @zozo  they are some of the most entertaining fish there are. We used to keep them with seahorses because they are generally peaceful. They build fantastic tunnels and I loved how they had a big shell or rock near the entrance to block it up at night when they went to bed (occassionally they'd use a snail or hermit crab and look a bit puzzled when their door wandered off). Sometimes you'd get a bit of squabbling when they stole each others burrows.


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## zozo

mort said:


> I love jawfish @zozo  they are some of the most entertaining fish there are. We used to keep them with seahorses because they are generally peaceful. They build fantastic tunnels and I loved how they had a big shell or rock near the entrance to block it up at night when they went to bed (occassionally they'd use a snail or hermit crab and look a bit puzzled when their door wandered off). Sometimes you'd get a bit of squabbling when they stole each others burrows.



This is the first time I see them on video and I don't know what is going on but it's hilarious. Obviously, it looks like they are in a who spits the most sand dispute or something. Over territory maybe? Domestic quarrel? If they were mine I would definitively have named them Waldorf and Mortimer... 

Beautifully ugly and seem to have a personality as well. I guess all fish have if we are willing to see it, even pond snails can be hand fed and recognize the hand that feeds them, but this is different...


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## mort

zozo said:


> This is the first time I see them on video and I don't know what is going on but it's hilarious. Obviously, it looks like they are in a who spits the most sand dispute or something. Over territory maybe? Domestic quarrel?



Likely a little bit of territorial squabbling. Some species live in colonies and others are quite solitary. This isn't a species that isn't in the aquarium trade as far as I know but it shares many characteristics with the larger more antisocial jawfish.


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## KirstyF

zozo said:


> This is the first time I see them on video and I don't know what is going on but it's hilarious. Obviously, it looks like they are in a who spits the most sand dispute or something. Over territory maybe? Domestic quarrel? If they were mine I would definitively have named them Waldorf and Mortimer...
> 
> Beautifully ugly and seem to have a personality as well. I guess all fish have if we are willing to see it, even pond snails can be hand fed and recognize the hand that feeds them, but this is different...



You got ur pond snails to recognise you!!!!🐌

Man…..that takes some commitment!……or waaaay too much time on your hands. 😂👍


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## zozo




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