# Fish choice for my scape



## Hanuman (11 Jan 2019)

My scape is in a 90*45*45. The tank is currently cycling so I will be putting some fish in the tank in a few weeks from now but I am still unsure what do put in. The scape is composed of the following plants:

- Lobelia cardinalis




- Cryptocoryne Wendtii Brown



- Marsilea hirsuta



- Mini Pearl moss



- Spiky moss



- Flame moss



- Bolbitis heudelotii



- Microsorum pteropus Java fern (narrow leafs)



- Cryptocoryne balansae



- Anubias petite



- Rotala wallichii



- Lugwigia Palustris



- Hygrophila pinnatifida



- Bucephalandra SP green



- Hygrophila Polysperma 'Rosanervig'



- Java moss




And here is the general view of the tanks




For the substrate, I used Cal Aqua Labs Black Earth Premium soil along with some Green Base XR, Substrex and Multi-R.

So here are the fish that I was recommended to add and their approximate quantities but it seems a bit too much in my opinion.

- Neon tetras (x15)
- Cardinal red tetras (x15)
- Cherry shrimps (x20)
- Otocinclus affinis (x3)
- Sturisoma Panamense (x3)
- Dwarf puffers (for snails) (x3)
- Pearl Gouramis (x3) - These I already have as they were in the tank prior the scape.

That is a total of 42 fishes and 20 shrimps. My understanding is that shrimp and dwarf puffer is a no go (specially from the shrimp's point of view ).

What do you guys think and what would you recommend?


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## mort (11 Jan 2019)

Great looking scape. It provides plenty of cover so a group of fish should be happy in there. I'm not sure why you were advised to get both cardinals and neons, I'd just go for one species and have a large group. You could easily have 25-30 of a single species in there at that kind of fish size. Harlequin rasbora, ember tetra, pristell tetra are good options as well.
Dwarf puffers can be nippy so I wouldn't personally mix them with anything else. They often eat shrimp but sometimes not the adults, either way you need to make sure your population has settled and reach a point where some predation isn't a problem.
Ottos love company so I would add more than 3, 6-8 would be a minimum but 10 would be better.

Your other choices are good but their size is the limiting factor for your other fish choices because their bioload is much higher. Final numbers are hard to suggest as it depends on how much filtration you have, how many and how big water changes will be and how much growth you get from your plants. So my advice is add your must haves in the number you want and fill in the gaps with increasing numbers of a main shoal as focus over time.


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## Onoma1 (11 Jan 2019)

I understand that while Otocinclus can live in small numbers that they are a 'social' fish normally found in very large shoals. They are much better off in larger numbers. I would increase the number of Otocinclus  to six or more - perhaps supplement their diet with cucumber or algae wafers.   Rachael Oleary has a spotlight video them which I found quite insightful:


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## Hanuman (11 Jan 2019)

mort said:


> Great looking scape. It provides plenty of cover so a group of fish should be happy in there. I'm not sure why you were advised to get both cardinals and neons, I'd just go for one species and have a large group. You could easily have 25-30 of a single species in there at that kind of fish size. Harlequin rasbora, ember tetra, pristell tetra are good options as well.
> Dwarf puffers can be nippy so I wouldn't personally mix them with anything else. They often eat shrimp but sometimes not the adults, either way you need to make sure your population has settled and reach a point where some predation isn't a problem.
> Ottos love company so I would add more than 3, 6-8 would be a minimum but 10 would be better.
> 
> Your other choices are good but their size is the limiting factor for your other fish choices because their bioload is much higher. Final numbers are hard to suggest as it depends on how much filtration you have, how many and how big water changes will be and how much growth you get from your plants. So my advice is add your must haves in the number you want and fill in the gaps with increasing numbers of a main shoal as focus over time.





Onoma1 said:


> I understand that while Otocinclus can live in small numbers that they are a 'social' fish normally found in very large shoals. They are much better off in larger numbers. I would increase the number of Otocinclus  to six or more - perhaps supplement their diet with cucumber or algae wafers.   Rachael Oleary has a spotlight video them which I found quite insightful:



Thanks. I like the Harlequin rasborice fish. I would need to see the price of those here in Thailand. In any case I have reviewed the list as follows:
- Harlequin rasbora (x20/30)
- Cherry shrimps (x10)
- Otocinclus affinis (x10)
- Sturisoma Panamense (x3)
- Pearl Gouramis (x3) [These I already have as they were in the tank prior the scape.]

What do you say?


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## akwarium (11 Jan 2019)

Nice tank!

this combination could work.  The rasbora and gouramis are a nice combination. Some shrimp wel be eaten but in this kind of tank the population will probably survive, you may not see much of them. 

Why the  Sturisoma panamense?  They are from fare more fast flowing streams then the Gouramis, they could be fine but feed them separately with wafers or greens in the evening, they are usually not that active during daytime.


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## Hanuman (12 Jan 2019)

akwarium said:


> Nice tank!
> 
> this combination could work.  The rasbora and gouramis are a nice combination. Some shrimp wel be eaten but in this kind of tank the population will probably survive, you may not see much of them.
> 
> Why the  Sturisoma panamense?  They are from fare more fast flowing streams then the Gouramis, they could be fine but feed them separately with wafers or greens in the evening, they are usually not that active during daytime.



Shrimps will be eaten by which fish?

As for the Sturisoma panamense that was the suggestion I was given because it's an algae eater, wood cleaner and basically adds to the cleaning crew but after what you are saying I might reconsider. Plus after doing some reading they seem to grow up to 8/10 inches which is bigger than what I thought.


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## Hanuman (12 Jan 2019)

Oh I forgot to say I also have 2 bamboo shrimps that I had in my tank previously. Would there be any problems adding them in the scape with the other fishes mentioned above?


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## akwarium (12 Jan 2019)

All fish will eat baby cherry shrimp, but in a densely planted tank like yours, some will survive. The pearl gouramis might even try to eat an adult cherry shrimp, some gouramis do, some don't. Usually the shrimp will be faster en much better in hiding themselves then the gouramis will be in finding them. 

Bamboo shrimps should be fine since they are to large to be considered food.

algae eating fish won't solve any major algae issues,  the otocinclus will be enough to help you keeping your hardscape and glass a bit cleaner. Sturisoma are highly specialized fore a certain habitat, those kind of fish are always hard to keep long term in a community tank.


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## Hanuman (12 Jan 2019)

Thank you for clarifying those points. The Sturisoma looks like a really nice fish but you are right might not be the right tank for them.


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## The Accidental Aquascaper (12 Jan 2019)

Nice selection, but I think some might not be compatible. I’m a novice, but I’ve been researching similar fish and from what I’ve read, it’s best to keep just the smallest fish when keeping shrimp too. A honey gourami is possible I think, but the other gouramis would be an issue.

Looking forward to seeing you add the fish!


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## mort (12 Jan 2019)

The Accidental Aquascaper said:


> Nice selection, but I think some might not be compatible. I’m a novice, but I’ve been researching similar fish and from what I’ve read, it’s best to keep just the smallest fish when keeping shrimp too. A honey gourami is possible I think, but the other gouramis would be an issue.
> 
> Looking forward to seeing you add the fish!



Shrimp will always get predated with almost any fish choice but your correct in saying that smaller fish are normally safer. Saying that not all fish are created equal and I would say the chances of success with gourami and shrimp is far higher with pearl gourami than the dwarf varieties. I wouldn't still rule out predation but pearls are truly graceful,  peaceful fish who tend to almost constantly hang around the top, whereas dwarf gourami can be aggressive and predatory, using all levels of the tank.


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## Hanuman (13 Jan 2019)

My pearl gouramis are indeed very peaceful and graceful. I never saw them being agressive towards other smaller fish I had. They actually like to be left alone and they like to stick in groups.

We will see how it goes when I add the fish and the shrimp. I will probably add the shrimps a few days prior adding the fish so they can settle and start cleaning the tank. This makes me think, what about adding amano shrimps instead of the cherry shrimps or actually have half of both?


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## mort (13 Jan 2019)

Due to the amano size they are less likely to get eaten than the smaller shrimp species. Many people mix them with other shrimp as well so a mixture should be fine.


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## Hanuman (14 Jan 2019)

I have a side question. I have noticed a steep increase in snail population for the past 2 days. Probably some snail eggs came with the plants and started hatching in the past couple of days. Although I have nothing against them I have started to remove them due to their large numbers. This morning alone I removed ~ 20 of them.

Are they beneficial and should I leave them be or should I removed them entirely. If so what would be the best approach for the later as hand picking them doesn't seem the most effective way and it is actually quite time consuming considering how small they are and difficult to see. As a side note, there is no fish/shrimp currently in the tank so no one to pray on them other than me . And is there is any fish within my list that will actually eat them? If not what fish could you recommend I add to take care of the snails?

Thank you.


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## tam (14 Jan 2019)

Hanuman said:


> If so what would be the best approach for the later as hand picking them doesn't seem the most effective way and it is actually quite time consuming considering how small they are and difficult to see.



You can use a trap, or drop some veggies in turn the lights out and they'll gather in one place, there are chemical treatments too (not shrimp safe so if you want to use that do it before livestock).


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## Hanuman (15 Jan 2019)

tam said:


> You can use a trap, or drop some veggies in turn the lights out and they'll gather in one place, there are chemical treatments too (not shrimp safe so if you want to use that do it before livestock).


Will the trap eventually remove all snails? I rather avoid chemicals if possible but might be necessary. What product do you recommend?


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## tam (15 Jan 2019)

I've never used chemicals in mine - I have shrimp and don't mind the odd snail. The traps will reduce the numbers but you'd need to be very diligent over a fair period of time to stand any chance of completely wiping them out but it does reduce numbers. Keep in mind that once you have rid the tank of them you'd want to quarantine/treat any new plant or wet hardscape you put back in as they are very easy to reintroduce.


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## Hanuman (16 Jan 2019)

I guess I will go the soft way with a trap see how that works. Thanks.


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (25 Jan 2019)

If going with Amano shrimp bear in mind that they do not breed in freshwater nd so it depends if you want to try and go for a self sustaining cherry shrimp population or a set number of Amanos.


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## Andrew Butler (25 Jan 2019)

Hanuman said:


> I have a side question. I have noticed a steep increase in snail population for the past 2 days. Probably some snail eggs came with the plants and started hatching in the past couple of days. Although I have nothing against them I have started to remove them due to their large numbers. This morning alone I removed ~ 20 of them.
> 
> Are they beneficial and should I leave them be or should I removed them entirely. If so what would be the best approach for the later as hand picking them doesn't seem the most effective way and it is actually quite time consuming considering how small they are and difficult to see. As a side note, there is no fish/shrimp currently in the tank so no one to pray on them other than me . And is there is any fish within my list that will actually eat them? If not what fish could you recommend I add to take care of the snails?
> 
> Thank you.


If it is a pest snail problem which it sounds like it is then I would be trying to get on top of it ASAP, keep picking out as many as you can by hand and as @tam says a trap of some kind will help too. Also look into a product called Esha Gastropex which is fish and shrimp safe if you need a product to use with livestock, they do recommend not using any not using any water conditioners too which is easy if there's no livestock. Just read what Esha have said below about how it works and removing dead snails.

From Esha:
_'ESHa Gastropex is shrimp safe but be carefull with too many dead snails. Shrimp eat a lot of dead waste and the snails contain eSHa Gastropex, If the shrimps then eat it, it is not so good for them. So try to remove as much snails before, during and after treatment and if you see any changes in behavior stop treatment and do a large water change. Please do not use any waterconditioners in your tank, if you did, do a large water change before treatment. Waterconditioners can influence the product. 
Yes, eSHa Gastropex contains Copper.
Kind regards,
Nikki'_

Also a link to the product page.
https://www.eshalabs.eu/english/products/esha-gastropex.html


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## Hanuman (25 Jan 2019)

Matt @ ScapeEasy said:


> If going with Amano shrimp bear in mind that they do not breed in freshwater nd so it depends if you want to try and go for a self sustaining cherry shrimp population or a set number of Amanos.



Actually I was looking to add both. I am aware that Amano can only breed in saline water but wanted to add some diversity in the shrimp population. It also gives me the opportunity to learn about their behavior. Would that be ok?


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## Andrew Butler (25 Jan 2019)

Hanuman said:


> Actually I was looking to add both. I am aware that Amano can only breed in saline water but wanted to add some diversity in the shrimp population. It also gives me the opportunity to learn about their behavior. Would that be ok?


Yes, loads of people do


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## Hanuman (25 Jan 2019)

Andrew Butler said:


> If it is a pest snail problem which it sounds like it is then I would be trying to get on top of it ASAP, keep picking out as many as you can by hand and as @tam says a trap of some kind will help too. Also look into a product called Esha Gastropex which is fish and shrimp safe if you need a product to use with livestock, they do recommend not using any not using any water conditioners too which is easy if there's no livestock. Just read what Esha have said below about how it works and removing dead snails.
> 
> From Esha:
> _'ESHa Gastropex is shrimp safe but be carefull with too many dead snails. Shrimp eat a lot of dead waste and the snails contain eSHa Gastropex, If the shrimps then eat it, it is not so good for them. So try to remove as much snails before, during and after treatment and if you see any changes in behavior stop treatment and do a large water change. Please do not use any waterconditioners in your tank, if you did, do a large water change before treatment. Waterconditioners can influence the product.
> ...



Thanks. I was also recommended to add some dwarf puffers to take care of the snails but the issue is that they can be nippy.


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (25 Jan 2019)

Hanuman said:


> Actually I was looking to add both. I am aware that Amano can only breed in saline water but wanted to add some diversity in the shrimp population. It also gives me the opportunity to learn about their behavior. Would that be ok?


No problem mixing them at all!


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## Andrew Butler (25 Jan 2019)

Hanuman said:


> Thanks. I was also recommended to add some dwarf puffers to take care of the snails but the issue is that they can be nippy.


Green spotted puffer and figure of 8 puffer are that bit bigger and will gobble those snails up but will very likely nip other fish.
Dwarf puffer I think it's down to the character of the fish; I know one friend who had them fine with other fish (not planted) but also wouldn't touch the snails and you also read of them nipping at everything. I think it's down to the individual character of the fish


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## akwarium (25 Jan 2019)

snails feed on dead plant matter, some algae and leftover fish food. They use up to 90% of what they eat, that is extremely efficient. So wen there is enough food their numbers can expend rapidly. Keeping your tank clean and don't overfeed your fish is the best way to keep them under control. 

puffers are no suitable companions for gouramis


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## Hanuman (25 Jan 2019)

akwarium said:


> snails feed on dead plant matter, some algae and leftover fish food. They use up to 90% of what they eat, that is extremely efficient. So wen there is enough food their numbers can expend rapidly. Keeping your tank clean and don't overfeed your fish is the best way to keep them under control.
> 
> puffers are no suitable companions for gouramis



I have no fish currently in the tank as it is cycling, so I am not adding any food. Plus I am doing daily water changes. I was told to do 50% to 80% water changes everyday. Snails are still thriving though. I think it is because of the expected partial melting of the plants that is happening since the setup.


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## Konsa (25 Jan 2019)

Hi
I am one of those that actually like snails.I find them usefull to have.And thats not only as food to my 5 SAP puffers.The most timmed of all puffers  I keep them with amano shrimp with no issues.But yes it is to the individual fish personality with all puffers.
I even had s snail colony going in 22l tank.Even with 300+snails they did almost no damage to plants.And boy that tank grew plants like crazy with all them in.Plus was that I can put algae infected Buce and Anubias and will have them spotlessly  clean in 24h even from BBA.
I have used Esha Gastropex in past with almost no success whatsoever even in higher dose.
There is a product called No Planaria from Genchem that will kill them but be carefull from ammonia spike if U have high snail numbers 
Regards Konsa


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## dw1305 (25 Jan 2019)

Hi all,





Konsa said:


> I am one of those that actually like snails.I find them usefull to have.


I'm a snail fan as well. I'm a bit limited with those that ,<"I can keep"> because of using rain-water in the tanks.

You can see some shell erosion on the Ramshorns and MTS in the <"_Lumbriculus">_ video.



I think you can always control snails by trapping if you feel the need to.  

cheers Darrel


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## Hanuman (25 Jan 2019)

I don’t mind snails but would be nice if they didn’t reproduce that much . Here is today’s hand picked catch:


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## akwarium (25 Jan 2019)

Konsa said:


> Hi
> I am one of those that actually like snails.I find them usefull to have.



They are! Since they are so efficient they are the best cleaning crew. 



Hanuman said:


> Snails are still thriving though. I think it is because of the expected partial melting of the plants that is happening since the setup



I think your right, once the plants are growing fine and you added the shrimp I think they will become more manageable


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## Konsa (25 Jan 2019)

akwarium said:


> I think your right, once the plants are growing fine and you added the shrimp I think they will become more manageable


 Exactly that.
The snail population grows as big as their food source.And they are easily outcompeted for food by shrimp and fish.
Regards Konsa


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## Hanuman (29 Jan 2019)

What about putting 1 or 2 large assassin snails (or other types?) in the tank? I read those don't reproduce that much and at least I can enjoy them since they are only a few. Would that be suitable?


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## akwarium (29 Jan 2019)

clea helena,  I don't see why not


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## Hanuman (7 Feb 2019)

I just wanted to give an update and share my experience so far.

I added all livestock 5 days ago and so far so good. I had one fatality yesterday, an otocinclus. Not sure of the reason why he died even after a close examination of the fish. I am keeping a close eye on the tank see if anything is out of order but so far all seems ok. So here is what I have added:

1 - *Trichopodus leerii* or commonly known as *Pearl gouramis* * 3 (1 males, two females)
2 - *Trigonostigma heteromorpha* or commonly known as *Harlequin rasbora* * 25
3 - *Otocinclus macrospilus *or commonly known as *oto ** 15 (-1)
4 - *Neocaridina davidi* or commonly knows are *Cherry shrimp* (fire red) * 60
5 - *Caridina multidentata* or commonly knows as *Yamato or Amano shrimp* * 10
6 - *Caridina gracilirostris* or commonly known as *Red nosed shimp* or *Pinocchio shrimp* * 24*
7 - *Gobiopterus chuno *or commonly knows as *Glass Goby* * 2 (these were an impulse purchase reason why I only got 2. Wanted to see how they behaved with the other fishes)
8 - *Clea Helena *snails or commonly knows *assassin snails* * 3 (small sized)

That would amount to 44 fishes and 94 shrimps. I opted to get more shrimps that I had originally planned as I am predicting some fatalities along the away and I know that amano shrimps will eventually die without descendance. As for the the red nosed shrimps I go them as they do seem to have a different personality which I liked.

All fish and shrimps are either bred locally/regionally (otocinclus, cherry shrimps, amano shrimps) or are indigenous to Thailand and also breed (Pearl gourami, Harlequin rasbora, Glass goby and red nosed shimp).

I let the algae proliferate by not changing the water for a few days prior adding all livestock. This was intentional so there would be enough available food for fish and shrimp without my intervention for a couple of days. That was a good idea as the tank is now close to being free of any visible algae.

I will be changing 30%/40% water every 4/5 day for the next few weeks then dial that down to a weekly basis or less depending on how the tanks goes. I still have lots of tanins from the substrate and wood but don't want to add activated carbon as it will raise the PH and I don't want that.

I have learned a lot in just a few weeks and still got a lot to learn. This community has been great so I would like to thank everyone that has helped me and given sensible advise.

Here is a short video and picture of the tank with the new stand (90*45*100) that was custom made from rubber wood. If you have any questions or comments please don't hesitate.

Overall view


Algae comparison close-up after 4 days of adding livestock


Gobiopterus chuno


Tank and stand


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## Konsa (7 Feb 2019)

Hi
U can have Purigen to clear the tannins.It is really effective if U not comfortable putting carbon in.Tbh its the first time I have heard it will increase PH and Im not convinced that is the truth 
Regards Konsa


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## Hanuman (7 Feb 2019)

Konsa said:


> Hi
> U can have Purigen to clear the tannins.It is really effective if U not comfortable putting carbon in.Tbh its the first time I have heard it will increase PH and Im not convinced that is the truth
> Regards Konsa



Well the activated carbon I put in the filter before I did the scape a few weeks ago clearly raised the PH significantly. Initially I was unsure but after dropping a handful of AC in some clear water and testing the water every 10 min or so I could see the PH rise quite dramatically. That's why I stopped using it as it was a constant battle of trying to make the PH stable. Might be that the AC I bought was chemically treated.

I will see if I can source some Purigen here in Thailand although I have the feeling it will be expensive due to import taxes.


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## akwarium (7 Feb 2019)

Activated carbon can effect the pH, depending on the type of carbon ( source material and activation process).  It is an initial effect, but can be quite extreme and effect over 600 times its own volume.  Activated carbon sold for water treatment or aquariums  is usually treated to prevent serious effects on pH.


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## Hanuman (7 Feb 2019)

akwarium said:


> Activated carbon can effect the pH, depending on the type of carbon ( source material and activation process).  It is an initial effect, but can be quite extreme and effect over 600 times its own volume.  Activated carbon sold for water treatment or aquariums  is usually treated to prevent serious effects on pH.



Yes there is actually two main ways of converting carbon/charcoal to activated carbon. There is the physical way or the chemical way the latter usually using either strong base or strong acids or even salts. I suspect the AC I bought was done with a base as the PH kept rising. It was not a brand name so highly possible it was not fish safe but was purchased in a fish store... Go figure!


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## akwarium (7 Feb 2019)

Hanuman said:


> Yes there is actually two main ways of converting carbon/charcoal to activated carbon. There is the physical way or the chemical way the latter usually using either strong base or strong acids or even salts. I suspect the AC I bought was done with a base as the PH kept rising. It was not a brand name so highly possible it was not fish safe but was purchased in a fish store... Go figure!



Probably someone who figured he could make some money on cheaper carbon... 

Your tank looks really nice and healthy!  And so do the fish. The Trigonostigma look a bit like T. espei to me.. but hard to see in the video.

I'm curious how the Gobiopterus will do, when they turn up in the European trade they are usually in very poor condition so I never kept them, despite the fact it think they are awesome little fish.


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## Hanuman (7 Feb 2019)

akwarium said:


> Probably someone who figured he could make some money on cheaper carbon...
> 
> Your tank looks really nice and healthy!  And so do the fish. The Trigonostigma look a bit like T. espei to me.. but hard to see in the video.
> 
> I'm curious how the Gobiopterus will do, when they turn up in the European trade they are usually in very poor condition so I never kept them, despite the fact it think they are awesome little fish.



Thanks. I was sold the Trigonostigma as Harlequi Rasbora which makes it a T. heteromorpha. This said I don't know for sure. I will take a picture later today and post it here. It is possible that it is a T. espei though. This is what I have read about the differences:



 
Source: https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/trigonostigma-espei/

As for the Gobiopterus it is indigenous to the region where I am so they are pretty fresh and can be caught pretty easily although these ones I was told were bread in tanks. They are very funny to watch. They can open their mouth pretty wide. They also swim in schools but since they are only two they swim in schools with the Trigonostigma


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## sparkyweasel (7 Feb 2019)

Purigen seems expensive, but if you bear in mind that you can recharge it and use it many times, it works out cheaper than carbon which you only use once.


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## Hanuman (8 Feb 2019)

I was able to source some Purigen locally. I will be receiving it today. I will however wait 1 or 2 more weeks before adding it to the filter. I want to remove as much tanins as possible manually from water changes. The substrate manufacturer said tanins should slowly disappear within a month of setup. If I added the Purigen now I might have to regenerate it soon. I guess patiente is a vertu!


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## Hanuman (8 Feb 2019)

akwarium said:


> Your tank looks really nice and healthy!  And so do the fish. The Trigonostigma look a bit like T. espei to me.. but hard to see in the video.



And here is a slow-mo of the Trigonostigma in action.


Indeed they seem to be Trigonostigma espei and not the heteromorpha. I was fooled!


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## Hanuman (5 Apr 2019)

akwarium said:


> I'm curious how the Gobiopterus will do.



So far so good. They all seem healthy. Not sure if I lost 1 or 2 because they tend to hide sometimes in the plants so I am unable to count them all in one shot. Sometimes they like to school with the T. espei. Funny to see. They are somehow less proactive than other fish when it comes to feeding. They won't venture far for the food unless the food comes to them. I guess it's because of the other fishes in the tank that are faster and bigger than them or perhaps it's their nature. In nature they feed mainly on zooplankton. I noticed they do prefer live food like artemia or the like. They tend to disregard man made food.


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## Hanuman (16 May 2019)

And so the vallisneria flowered...


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