# 0.25 Ammonia, 0 Nitrites, 5 Nitrates



## chrism (25 Aug 2017)

Hi All,

So I'm really confused.  I use to have multiple tanks 10 years ago, so think I may have been a bit too confident when setting up this tank.

The tank's been up running since early June and unfortunately, I've suffered a few fish loses - I think down to the tank not being cycled properly, but I'm not 100% sure.

I'll try to keep this as brief as possible while giving you all the details you need...

~135L
Eco Complete
2 x 24W T5s
Eheim eXperience 250T

Plants:
Helanthium quadricostatus
Echinodorus ozelot (1 x Red 1 x Green)
Lilaeopsis brasiliensis
Hydrocotyle verticillata
Aponogeton longiplumulosis
Duckweed

Fish:
1 x BN (Original)
10 x Rummynose Tetras (added 3 days ago)
~10 Ruby Tetras (Original)
1 x Blue Ram (added 3 weeks ago)
10 Red Cherry Shrimp

2 x Golden Rams (Original and now deceased)
3 x Blue Rams (Added with the remaining Ram, but now deceased)

I planted the tank about 2/3 weeks before adding fish.  I had planned a fishless cycle, but couldn't find the ammonia and while searching discovered you can now buy bacteria in a bottle.  So opted for that instead, perhaps naively.  I kept an eye on the water parameters and performed water changes as needed during the first couple of weeks to ensure ammonia stayed low until one day I had Nitrate readings of 40ppm, much higher than the previous test.  So, did a large water change and all was well.

A week or so later, 1 golden ram got sick.  Seemed like a swim bladder infection, he died.  The next day, the other one died although hadn't shown any signs of sickness.  I tested the water when the first one was ill and ammonia was 0.25mm.  So I started doing daily 15% water changes, ammonia dropped back to 0 for quite some time.  

Before buying the Blue Rams a few weeks back, I tested the water 0 Ammonia, 0 Nitrite, 5-10 Nitrate.  Awesome.  Went and bought the fish.  Within a few days one was hanging out on the bottom looking quite poorly (didn't seem to be swim bladder related - just a bit sad).  I tested the water  0.25 ammonia, 0 Nitrite, 0 Nitrate.  It had a damaged fin, which appeared to be fin rot.  He died the next day.  Daily, 15% W/C, upped the temp from 24 to 26. But another 2 still died.

4 days ago, tested the water, 0,0,5.  Brill, went and picked up the Rummynose Tetras, paying extra attention to the water quality and the very next morning ammonia is back up to 0.25. Nitrite is still 0, and Nitrate is possibly just 5ppm.  I did a 30% WC. And tested again yesterday morning, same readings, Ammonia still 0.25 so I added Prime to hopefully detoxify any ammonia along with Stability...  I tested again this morning, same readings.

I don't have much if any algae at the moment, but plants are growing.  I thought I had some kind of brown hair algae, but it appears that it's actually diatoms? caused by silica in the water? It falls apart and isn't slimy when rubbed between fingers.  I've been using Neutro T & Neutro Liquid Carbon.  I have some Easy Life Pro Fito coming today as some of the Helanthium quadricostatusleaves leaves are starting to get holes, although they're throwing out runners like nobodies business.  I've also used API root tabs in the substrate.  Ozelots are looking healthy, although a few leaves have developed brown spots and are dying off, assuming they're just adjusting to underwater life.  The Aponogeton longiplumulosis arrived leafless and have all thrown leaves out now and some are maybe 8" long.

The Duckweed has diminished significantly since I bought it - I'm assuming down to the low Nitrates?

So I guess my question is...  What mistakes have I made and what should I be doing to fix them?


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## ian_m (25 Aug 2017)

You cannot rely on test kit results, especially ammonia, when using Prime as it interferes with test kits results giving false readings. You will need to wait 24/48 hours for Prime to dissipate before testing and then it will be more than likely something else will interfere with your test kit, giving erroneous results.

Basically it appears you didn't wait for upto 12 weeks for tank to cycle properly, thus are getting ammonia still present possibly killing your fish. I assume you are dechlorinating your water change water and not killing your fish & bacteria with chlorine ?

So ways forward are...
- Remove fish until tank has cycled.
- Add many more plants, especially fast growing eg egeria densa to take up ammonia (rather than algae). Egeria densa does not like liquid carbon.
- Dose daily with prime.
- Frequent (daily ?) water changes.
- Diatoms appear in new tanks, possibly due to too much light, so reduce lighting period and intensity for a couple of weeks, Diatoms also scoffed by fish like Ottos. Will eventually go away by frequent plant wiping/cleaning and water changes.
- Put test kit in bin as you have found the results are meaningless and can lead you down the wrong path in solving issues.


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## chrism (25 Aug 2017)

Yeah, foolish mistake.  The bottle said to add fish immediately, and I figured with plants, external filter and small fish they'd be ok.  Clearly not.  Lesson learned.

Thanks for the advice.  I can do everything but remove the fish as I have nowhere to put them.  So, I've ordered more plants Elodea densa & Phyllantus fluitans, will dose Prime daily along with ferts (ex liquid carbon).  Will perform small daily water changes ~15% sound about right?


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## ian_m (25 Aug 2017)

chrism said:


> Will perform small daily water changes ~15% sound about right?


Probably OK.

My mate after breaking his tank (seam split), along with filter burnt out, cooking all the filter foams, bought a tank and had start with new water and new filter. Did put some old gravel in new tank to transfer bacteria, but basically just changed 1 bucket of water a day for a couple of weeks along with a daily Prime dose for whole tank and all fish & plants survived fine.

You will need to add some carbon source in the long run, so could try dosing small doses of liquid carbon, and let Egeria get used to it slowly.


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## chrism (25 Aug 2017)

That's fine, once everything gets settled, the Egeria will probably come out, unless it grows on me in the meantime.  Will dose Prime daily and keep up with small daily wc.  I guess when the Nitrates start creeping up on a regular basis it should be cycled so I can stop with the Prime (other than for WC).  Thanks for all your help.


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## PBM3000 (25 Aug 2017)

What is your water temp?


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## chrism (29 Aug 2017)

25.5 - 26ºC
PH seems to be about 6.6
I've included a screen shot of the hardness from the water board.


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## dw1305 (29 Aug 2017)

Hi all,





chrism said:


> What mistakes have I made and what should I be doing to fix them?


Like @ian_m says, just let the plants grow in for a lot longer.  Planted tanks are never "cycled" in the way a non-planted tank would be. <"Cycling is a divisive issue">, but that thread (and links in it) gives a bit of back-ground.





chrism said:


> The Duckweed has diminished significantly since I bought it - I'm assuming down to the low Nitrates?





chrism said:


> I've included a screen shot of the hardness from the water board.


That is soft water. 

Duckweed (_Lemna minor_) likes a lot of nitrates and harder water. Although I started with _<"Lemna minor">_ for the <"Duckweed Index"> (hence the name) I found that Amazon Frogbit (_"Limnobium laevigatum"_) was a better "Duckweed", because it doesn't have these limitations, and will grow in soft water with very low nutrients (albeit slowly and as small leaf rosettes). 





chrism said:


> A week or so later, 1 golden ram got sick. Seemed like a swim bladder infection, he died. The next day, the other one died although hadn't shown any signs of sickness.


Commercially produced Rams are genetically of poor quality (particularly the Golden ones) and often riddled with parasites, they are one of my favourite fish, but I would only buy them from a breeder now. 





chrism said:


> Elodea densa & Phyllantus fluitans


The _Phyllanthus_ is OK, but it isn't a very quick grower. I've never had any success with _<"Egeria densa">, (_it just disintegrates_)_ and I assume that is a problem with soft water.

cheers Darrel


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