# new to this, please help: cycling aquasoil, cycled after 2 weeks? if not what's happening?



## Abcdefg (14 Nov 2016)

Hi,

I am currently 2 / 3 weeks in to cycling a 50l tank and total amomnia has been at 0ppm for a week now. 

The substrate is powersand special and ada amazonia AS.

I have also been dosing seachem stability, and my dechlorinator (Interpet Bioactive Tapsafe plus) claims, on the bottle:

Makes tap water safe for all fish
Instantly removes toxic chlorine, chloramine and heavy metals
Instantly adds aloe vera and beneficial bacteria
on the bottle...

a few questions:

- It can't be that the tank is cycled can it?

- I'm worried that the use of the stability and tape safe is masking the true nature of the tank, so that amonia is being neutralised by dosing these rather than the external filter, tank,substrate and plants doing their magic.

- I'm worried that the cycle will stall if there's little to no ammonia to feed bacteria, or slow down as there's not much for them to work on.

- Do members use a dechlorinator that *only* dechlorinates to avoid unknowns? what do people use product wise to dechlorinate?

- on some advice from a shop local to my work, I added some fish food to try to raise the ammonia level, in the hope of seeing it rise and then fall again to confirm that the tank is or has cycled somewhat. this has had no effect after two / three days ammonia has not risen (could this be dosing of stability and tap safe?).

(also dosing Excel and EI <- from a starter kit and according to included instructions)


Thanks,

Tom


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## kadoxu (14 Nov 2016)

Abcdefg said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am currently 2 / 3 weeks in to cycling a 50l tank and total amomnia has been at 0ppm for a week now.
> 
> ...



It can be cycled, but I doubt it. Ammonia going down is just the first phase of the Nitrogen cycle coming to an end.



 
(Don't pay attention to the water change part of this chart. As you should do them more often than that!)

I believe that the *stability solution* is a source of ammonia... probably some bacteria, but there is much discussion and not much proof about this.
*Tap Safe* only blocks chlorine and heavy metals from tap water so they don't harm fish and plants. I don't think it removes ammonia.

Since you are using EI and Excel, I assume you have plants. Plants absorb ammonia, so that's probably why you aren't seeing any rises when you add fish food, but you'll probably run into some algae issues soon if you keep doing it. Dying leaves will generate ammonia, so don't worry too much about it.

How often do you do water changes?
How much water do you change on each time?
What kind of filter do you have? 
What are your other water parameters? 
How much light are you providing to the plants?

Weeks 3/4 is when the problems really start on planted tanks... so brace yourself!


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## ian_m (14 Nov 2016)

Couple of things happening here (probably).
1. The dechlorinator you are using may also remove ammonia in the tank, giving you the zero reading. Luckily most dechlorinators (Prime etc) leave the ammonia bio-available so tank cycling may not be affected.
2. Ammonia test kits can be affected by presence of dechlorinator, giving a false zero reading.

I suspect the tank is not cycled, especially if using ADA product. A good bet is wait 10-12 weeks or plant fully immediately, plants will be fine.

Most people here probably use Seachem Prime to dechlorinate, being one of the cheapest per litre to use. If you have a really large tank then sodium thiosulphate is even cheaper a 1Kg bag for £5 will dechlorinate 100,000litres (or more). Both affect hobby grade ammonia test kits.


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## rebel (14 Nov 2016)

Your tank will cycle in about 6 weeks. what's happening is that your test results are confusing you. Stop testing and just enjoy ya plants for now. Then cautiously introduce fish at 6 weeks.

If you wait for 12 weeks. No testing necessary. Introduce fish and enjoy.


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## ian_m (14 Nov 2016)

You can (and I have done it) introduce fish earlier, before cycling has finished by using a combination of frequent water changes and dosing dechlorinator that removes ammonia, directly to the tank.

I had to do this when I bought my tank 2nd hand, the previous owner had cleaned the tank, washed and dried all the filter media and washed all the substrate, as well as supplying me with some of the fish. So for first couple of weeks I just dosed daily Kordon Amquel+ that removes ammonia and frequently changed the water. Fish were all OK.


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## dw1305 (14 Nov 2016)

Hi all,





Abcdefg said:


> also dosing Excel and EI <- from a starter kit and according to included instructions


Is the tank planted?





kadoxu said:


> Ammonia going down is just the first phase of the Nitrogen cycle coming to an end.


This chart is useful if you don't have any plants, but if your tank is planted the ammonia (NH3) and nitrate (NO3) levels will never build up to the same degree. 





ian_m said:


> The dechlorinator you are using may also remove ammonia in the tank, giving you the zero reading. Luckily most dechlorinators (Prime etc) leave the ammonia bio-available so tank cycling may not be affected.


"Ian_m" is right, Seachem won't tell you how Prime works, but "Amquel" has a patent, and it is likely <"that they work in a similar way">.  The ammonia is detoxified, but it just cycles through various compounds until it is biologically consumed. 





Abcdefg said:


> on some advice from a shop local to my work, I added some fish food to try to raise the ammonia level, in the hope of seeing it rise and then fall again to confirm that the tank is or has cycled somewhat. this has had no effect after two / three days ammonia has not risen (could this be dosing of stability and tap safe?).


Your best bet is just to ignore test kits and the "cycled by ammonia" concept all together, neither is very useful. You can test for ammonia successfully with an <"ion selective electrode"> (Above pH7 NH3 is converted to NH4+ when it passes through the membrane into the acidic solution surrounding the sensor), but even that isn't entirely unproblematic.

If you have plants, and keep your oxygen levels up, the <"tank will become "cycled"> after a few more weeks.

Planted tanks are never wholly reliant on microbial filtration, and plants give you a negative feedback loop where increased nutrient levels lead to increased plant growth, which depletes nutrient levels etc.

Because CO2 is often the limiting nutrient for plant growth plants with emersed leaves are really useful, either floaters, or emergent plants.

cheers Darrel


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## Abcdefg (14 Nov 2016)

Hi Kadoxu, thanks for responding




kadoxu said:


> Weeks 3/4 is when the problems really start on planted tanks... so brace yourself!



...oh dear, now I'm scared about what's next!...

How often do you do water changes?
How much water do you change on each time?

 ---> i've settled in to 1 a week, but it has been extensive - 90 to 95% - as I've been using them as an oportunity to tinker with moss and fix little bits of hardscape - requiring a full drain


What kind of filter do you have? 
I have an eheim pro 3 250 (2071) so it seems like enough (perhaps a little too much flow, but maybe I can tinker with that) I think output is  950 ltr/h


What are your other water parameters? 

N03 = 50 to 100ppm
N02 = 0.5 to 2ppm 
GH = 14
Kh   = 6 /10 
PH = around 7.2 with outliers at 6 and 8    ( hard to tell if this is changing in an erratic way, there was definitely  a point where KH and PH seemed to be falling in tandem)

This is with a JBL 6 in 1 test strip

The total Amonia is tested with a tetra NH3/NH4 total ammonia liquid test kit

not sure how reliable the above kits are, I know a testing in general seems to be unreliable from what I've read...

Out of interest, what on the test strip and ammonia kit can I be confident about? I was assuming at the least PH and Chlorine from the strip and Ammonia total from the liquid, would be reliable?




How much light are you providing to the plants?

I have a radion freswater - when I started out this was way to bright (after looking at some figures and doing some guess work), so I've been taking big chunks out of it to arrive at what I have now. 'intesity' is at 11 to 13% (i realise these don't mean a thing without context). - I think this gives me a PAR value of about 35ish at the substrate. 


I seem to be getting hair or BBA, and also green spot and some brown patching (algae of some sort presumably. Don't know whether to do a black out for these..

The whole history is here...

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/new-tank-ammonia-at-zero-after-two-weeks-will-cycle-stall.43411/


Thanks very much!


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## Abcdefg (14 Nov 2016)

Thanks Darral, Ian,

help is very much appreciated.

The tank is planted and was kicked off, unintentionally with a 1 week DSM style flooded substrate only situation. I don't know how to judge the density of the planting, whether it would be considered as lightly, moderately or heavily planted, as there is a bit too much in the way of hardscape in there. Maybe 50% of the footprint of the tank is planted with carpeting stuff which seems to be doing ok (new growth and spreading) and there are some java fern bits and pieces. I added a ludwigia palustris last week (still in pot, haven't planed yet) it has leaves that are emerging from the water surface, so this at least should be getting C02 and nutrients.

in terms of the bioactive tap safe stuff from interpet it seems to make various and vague promises so I'm erring on the side of, 'it could be doing anything' - i think it might be designed as a 'no need for cycling' type proposition, so it may well be doing or trying to do all sorts, hence the thoughts of maybe switching to things that are single purpose to avoid confusion.

Thanks!


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## Abcdefg (14 Nov 2016)

rebel said:


> Your tank will cycle in about 6 weeks. what's happening is that your test results are confusing you. Stop testing and just enjoy ya plants for now. Then cautiously introduce fish at 6 weeks.
> 
> If you wait for 12 weeks. No testing necessary. Introduce fish and enjoy.



I'll try to have patience, and I realise that the testing is a black box that's probably rather or very misleading especially me.


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## Abcdefg (14 Nov 2016)

Darrel,

Out of interest, what would you say could be considered as 'probably working' from a test strip style kit and or regent kits?, I know from reading around from yourself and others that it's all fairly flawed and even something more expensive from Hanna wouldn't necessarily be accurate

I was assuming chlorine and PH and total ammonia might be, but it would be good to get your opinion on the following:

- given the caveats about the cheaper end of the testing product market being inaccurate, what can I be confident, to a reasonable degree about testing for, or a lowish budget?

- If you where in the fictional position of being as informed about the limitations of such kits, as you are, but having a small budget with which to conduct basic 'good to know' tests to try get any useful information about a tank or tap water, then what tests would you do and with what equipment / kits?

i.e. is there a halfway house between, 'forget testing, a planted tank will be ready support fish and inverts, in around 6 to 8 weeks',  and 'try to test everything but be confounded by budget and the basic reality of the system being too complex and too varied.


- what do you test for if you are starting a new tank, and what do you use to test?


Thanks again,

Tom


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## dw1305 (14 Nov 2016)

Hi all, 





Abcdefg said:


> Out of interest, what would you say could be considered as 'probably working' from a test strip style kit and or regent kits?, I know from reading around from yourself and others that it's all fairly flawed and even something more expensive from Hanna wouldn't necessarily be accurate


It depends a little bit on the parameters of the water that you are testing. 





Abcdefg said:


> If you where in the fictional position of being as informed about the limitations of such kits, as you are, but having a small budget with which to conduct basic 'good to know' tests to try get any useful information about a tank or tap water, then what tests would you do and with what equipment / kits?


The only reasonably cheap bit of kit that gives an accurate and repeatable value, over a wide range of conditions and without needing constant calibration, is a conductivity meter. You can buy a good low range meter for ~£100.

A dissolved oxygen probe would also fulfil the "accurate and repeatable" criteria, they need calibration, but this is very straightforward, but they are prohibitively expensive to buy.

Both of these meter have probes that you can drop into the tank (with the heater/filter/lights turned off) and get a meaningful reading. After that it gets more difficult.

If you take pH as an example any testing method should give you a reasonably accurate pH value in alkaline, carbonate rich, water. You even know what that pH value should be, ~pH8.  The problem comes with water with very little carbonate buffering, pH is a moveable feast and much less informative.

Another example would be that NO3 is easier to test for in sea water, because it has a known chloride ion (Cl-) concentration, and interference by chloride is one of the problems in getting accurate NO3 values. If you have a look at this thread <"Testing strips vs liquid test"> <"@alto"> may be a better person to tell you which kits he prefers.

I could get accurate parameters for the tanks that at work, because I have access to lab. grade analytical equipment (ISE, AAS, HPLC etc) and the staff who can use them.   





Abcdefg said:


> i.e. is there a halfway house between, 'forget testing, a planted tank will be ready support fish and inverts, in around 6 to 8 weeks', and 'try to test everything but be confounded by budget and the basic reality of the system being too complex and too varied.


There is, it uses a bioassay as a proxy to indicate water conditions.

I use a <"_Daphnia_ bioassay"> for water quality, and a <"_Lemna_ bioassay"> to assess nutrient status.

cheers Darrel


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## kadoxu (14 Nov 2016)

Abcdefg said:


> i've settled in to 1 a week, but it has been extensive - 90 to 95% - as I've been using them as an oportunity to tinker with moss and fix little bits of hardscape - requiring a full drain


That's good. Don't do such a big water change after adding fish (and specially if you add inverts). It can cause them great stress (and even death) to change water conditions so abruptly.



Abcdefg said:


> I have an eheim pro 3 250 (2071) so it seems like enough (perhaps a little too much flow, but maybe I can tinker with that) I think output is 950 ltr/h


I have a EHEIM Classic 250 (440l/h) in a 20L tank, so it's not a problem, as long as it's not disturbing the soil and your fish (eventually) have some places where they can rest.



Abcdefg said:


> N03 = 50 to 100ppm
> N02 = 0.5 to 2ppm
> GH = 14
> Kh = 6 /10
> ...


In general, everyone will tell you hobby grade tests are quite useless (some tests like PH, KH and GH are usually ok). They may be useful just so you know if you get readings above zero.

As you can see in your test, your tank still has some NO2, which means it's still cycling. You should get 0ppm NO2 in the end of the cycle (even with crappy tests).



Abcdefg said:


> I have a radion freswater - when I started out this was way to bright (after looking at some figures and doing some guess work), so I've been taking big chunks out of it to arrive at what I have now. 'intesity' is at 11 to 13% (i realise these don't mean a thing without context). - I think this gives me a PAR value of about 35ish at the substrate.


I would consider 35PAR at substrate as medium to medium-high lighting.



Abcdefg said:


> The whole history is here...
> 
> http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/new-tank-ammonia-at-zero-after-two-weeks-will-cycle-stall.43411/


I see you are doing a "siesta" with the light period. It's only good if you don't have injected CO2.


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## Abcdefg (14 Nov 2016)

Thanks Darrel,

I have read some of your other posts on using bioassay over the past few weeks, and will read over again now along with the test strip link,

however can I ask; something which I wondered on first reading about your use of floaters to asses water quality, was how applicable it is to a tank as small as mine. i'e how well does this scale down?

- with a water surface area of 60cm x 30cm ish, can I add enough floaters to have a representative enough sample before I get to the point where almost all of the surface is covered and therefore cuts out the direct lighting to the substrate? (not sure how 'useful' the light will be at substrate level once it has been transmitted and scattered through the tissue of the floaters, or what kind of useful wavelengths would come out on the other side? - I'm probably over-thinking this in an uninformed way)

- the surface conditions will be very varied in this tiny 60 x 30 area. most of the leaves would spend their time rushing around the tank (with my current outpipe setup which I could change admittedly), and if they stayed still then the lighting and other factors might be quite varied - as it's not an infinitely distant parallel light like the sun, but a very close LED.

(as an aside on this point of light, I would have thought that having a brighter, but more distant light; for example on the ceiling, would help an aquarium situation by tempering the variation in falloff through the tank between substrate and water surface (PAR at surface compared to PAR at substrate), but I don't see anyone doing this. Is this just down to the impracticality of such a setup for most?)

Thanks

Tom


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## dw1305 (14 Nov 2016)

Hi all, 





Abcdefg said:


> however can I ask; something which I wondered on first reading about your use of floaters to asses water quality, was how applicable it is to a tank as small as mine. i'e how well does this scale down?


Yes, scale isn't really an issue, you'll find all your plants will look similar, you won't find one which is lush and healthy next to one that is pale and deficient. I have floaters on all the tanks, however small. Because they are floating plants they are picking up their nutrients from the water column and that isn't like a substrate, you don't get patches will high nutrients next to areas with low nutrients, it is all the same. The same applies to atmospheric gases, every plant will have access to at least 400ppm CO2.





Abcdefg said:


> before I get to the point where almost all of the surface is covered and therefore cuts out the direct lighting to the substrate? (not sure how 'useful' the light will be at substrate level once it has been transmitted and scattered through the tissue of the floaters, or what kind of useful wavelengths would come out on the other side? - I'm probably over-thinking this in an uninformed way)


Light at the tank bottom definitely is an issue, I've never been successful with any small plants at the bottom of my aquariums, they are gloomy, leaf litter filled spaces with only ferns and mosses.





Abcdefg said:


> most of the leaves would spend their time rushing around the tank (with my current outpipe setup which I could change admittedly), and if they stayed still then the lighting and other factors might be quite varied - as it's not an infinitely distant parallel light like the sun, but a very close LED.


Light shouldn''t be a problem, floating plants like _Limnobium_  have evolved in very bright light, but they are capable of surviving in lower light levels. 

I had flow problems with _<"Phyllanthus fluitans">, _but _Limnobium laevigatum _is more robust. 

cheers Darrel


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## Abcdefg (15 Nov 2016)

kadoxu said:


> I would consider 35PAR at substrate as medium to medium-high lighting.



Thanks, I'm trying to reduce the light intensity to around 25 at substrate, would that be a good figure to go for without c02? 



I noticed some changes last night; 
- Monte Carlo is yellowing and burning / melting / generally not looking so good in spots on some of the larger (older) leaves, I'm not confident that these are all leaves from before flooding, it could be that some are what was new submerge growth that looked really positive in week 1, but is now not doing so well. 

- I noticed green hair type algae last night. So now I have green hair, black hair, green spot and some brown stuff (on the rocks). 

In response to the algae and now the Browning and yellowing of the Monte Carlo I have started upping the excel dose. 

I dosed 7.5 ml on Sunday after lights out,
5ml Monday after lights out
And was going to dose 5ml tonight. 

Is this wise? Or could I be in danger of overdosing? 

I'm considering doing a black out for the algae... should I? I'm worried that the plants have been on a bit of a roller coaster ride and are too new to deal with a black out. 

If it's advisable to do one then how long should I do it for? 

Or is there another way? 

(I'm getting a soda stream co2 kit today from co2 art, but was considering holding back on setting it up until next week, in fear of changing too much stuff all at once) 

Thanks,

Tom


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## kadoxu (15 Nov 2016)

Usually plants bought from stores have enough "energy" to run for 2/3 weeks on their own. That's why problems start at week 3 or 4. Melting is normal, since stores usually grow plants emersed. The plants need to ditch the leaves and grow new ones to adapt to lower CO2 levels under water.

Try not to overdose Excel too much, as it can affect plants as well. And you should use it before lights on instead of after lights off.

For the algae problems, I would reduce lighting intensity, no need to reduce lighting period, since you are only doing 6 hours of light, and start doing daily 50% water changes (WC) for at least a week, then one WC every other day for another week or two, 2 weekly WC for more 1 or 2 weeks and then reduce to 1 WC a week.

If you want to do a black out, 3 days is usually enough. Find a way to cover the tank completely and don't even peek inside for 3 days. Then clean up, do a big WC and see if algae is reduced.

CO2 helps a lot to reduce algae, since it gives the plants an advantage over the algae. So if you are getting it, use it!

Sometimes it can be quite confusing to identify algae correctly, so posting some photos asking what it is may help.


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## Abcdefg (15 Nov 2016)

Thanks,

I'll step up the water changes and back-off on the lighting.

...But as always a couple of questions...

I have been reading that water changes can cause algae as the chemistry changes dramatically (is this true?), so is the idea that if changes are frequent enough then stability is achieved by the fact that the water in effect mirrors the dechlorinated tap water more, and is constantly brought in line with this stable water source?

On the question of CO2, I've been reading around and think I have a basic overview of what the process is for getting towards an on off schedule and bubble count, however, if the advice is to test PH frequently to keep track of this and so arrive at something sensible, then are test strips going to cut it for the PH measurements? or do I need to go for something else? ( better strips - i.e. not broad range, liquid test, or cheap PH probe pen).

What do people tend to use to test and log ph?

I have a drop checker, but I was viewing this as a day-to-day monitoring thing rather than a calibrating the rate of injection thing, 

Would you be able to advise?

Again many thanks for the help, it's much appreciated. Amazing to have somewhere with so many knowledgeable folk!

Cheers 


..I'll try to get some pictures up of the Algae... can't find the card reader for my camera card at the moment...


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## kadoxu (16 Nov 2016)

Abcdefg said:


> I have been reading that water changes can cause algae as the chemistry changes dramatically (is this true?), so is the idea that if changes are frequent enough then stability is achieved by the fact that the water in effect mirrors the dechlorinated tap water more, and is constantly brought in line with this stable water source?


Exactly. When starting a tank, water chemistry changes a lot and fast in the first weeks. Performing daily water changes allows the filter to mature while keeping the chemistry relatively stable.



Abcdefg said:


> On the question of CO2, I've been reading around and think I have a basic overview of what the process is for getting towards an on off schedule and bubble count, however, if the advice is to test PH frequently to keep track of this and so arrive at something sensible, then are test strips going to cut it for the PH measurements? or do I need to go for something else? ( better strips - i.e. not broad range, liquid test, or cheap PH probe pen).
> 
> What do people tend to use to test and log ph?


I have a Seneye device, if you want to go crazy... 
You only need to test PH if you change anything... PH is quite easy to test and you have several options. As usual test strips are the worst thing you can have... a PH pen is not that expensive and gives you fast results with little to no mess, you just have to re-calibrate it once in a while.



Abcdefg said:


> I have a drop checker, but I was viewing this as a day-to-day monitoring thing rather than a calibrating the rate of injection thing,


Exactly!


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## Abcdefg (22 Nov 2016)

Kadoxu, thanks, 

Ive stepped up the water changes and I set up my sodastream co2 kit (went through a whole bottle over the weekend due to not tightening it, but hopefully i'll get it right next time)

I've set a sort of arbitrary bubble count that seems to result in a lime green checker at some stage before the end of the day (it was that colour when I got back from work today at least...)

I haven't been able to do any structured tests with the timing the drop in ph, but hopefully will do tomorrow night.

I was wondering whether its worth investing in a PH pen, I was looking at the BOYU one, seemed cheap but to have decent features like 3 point calibration, any opinions on this particular one or any sub £50 recommendations would be very much appreciated

or is it just ok to go with the idea that i keep things consistent bubble count wise for the next two weeks, and as long as i never see any yellowishness in the drop checker, then adding fish and shrimp in two weeks time wont gas them?



Also, finally got round to uploading some algae pics at the bottom of this page;

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/50-litre.47865/

Thanks!


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## Abcdefg (22 Nov 2016)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,



Darrel, sorry just realised I didn't say thanks for this... very rude of me, apologies!


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## kadoxu (22 Nov 2016)

Abcdefg said:


> Kadoxu, thanks,
> 
> Ive stepped up the water changes and I set up my sodastream co2 kit (went through a whole bottle over the weekend due to not tightening it, but hopefully i'll get it right next time)
> 
> ...


Since you have no fish or shrimp yet, you can just test the PH before it goes off and adjust CO2 for the next day, then repeat the process everyday until you are happy with it.

Don't know if I already mentioned this for CO2 measurement... 





KH and PH will tell you how much CO2 is present in the water. You want to have around 30ppm CO2 in the tank during light hours.


Can't really advise on root tabs and PH pen, since I have never used them...


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## Abcdefg (22 Nov 2016)

Thanks Kadoxu,

I'll look in to doing some proper measurements at some point, but I'm in the mental trap of:

" Lots of people are saying test kits don't work, so I have no way telling what pH and kh are to any degree of accuracy anyway. Presumably even if I buy a pH pen that's somewhere near reliable, I still won't know what KH is" 

I might buy a pen, but torn between going for a £40 one and a £100 Hanna one, don't know whether there's be any difference for my purposes...

I might ask o  the co2 subforum about how people are measuring pH with any degree of accuracy. 

In other news, there seems to be an explosion of wildlife, with 3 snails (think they are ramshorn, and snuck in on some moss), and also lots of some kind of tiny daphne or something, running around on the wood, and swimming in zig zags... I'm presuming g this is a good sign that the tank can support life? ...although there are lots (in the thousands perhaps) of tiny specks which I guess might be snail eggs, I'm not sure I want them all to hatch if they are.


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## rebel (22 Nov 2016)

@kadoxu , I reckon you should change your name to PhKhMeister.

Nice work!


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## Abcdefg (22 Nov 2016)

Just checked and they look nothing like ramshorn eggs (I think..) so I guess that's OK.


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## kadoxu (22 Nov 2016)

rebel said:


> @kadoxu , I reckon you should change your name to PhKhMeister.
> 
> Nice work!


I'm only @zozo 's prophet! I found the chart in one of his posts a while ago!


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## dw1305 (22 Nov 2016)

Hi all,





Abcdefg said:


> kh are to any degree of accuracy anyway


You should be able to get a carbonate hardness value from your water supplier. It won't be in dKH (it may be in Clark units), but <"we can convert the units">.

cheers Darrel


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## Abcdefg (22 Nov 2016)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,You should be able to get a carbonate hardness value from your water supplier. It won't be in dKH (it may be in Clark units), but <"we can convert the units">.
> 
> cheers Darrel




Ah, excellent, Ill look in to it, thanks!

Would you say that a PH pen would be a worthwhile investment at all?

Cheers


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## Abcdefg (22 Nov 2016)

Right, so Thames Water says:

dkh = 14  (14.56, if I use the calculator in your link Darrel)

and PH is 7.73


Are these figures for the water supply zone likely to hold up in terms of what comes out of the tap in any given property? or could that vary substantially beyond these area readings from thames water?

I've been keeping a day to day log of my test strip tests, and I do have a few readings that seemed to be 3 or 6 for KH, would these have been completely erroneous, or is it possible for KH to move around this much whilst setting up a tank?


Thanks


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## zozo (23 Nov 2016)

kadoxu said:


> I'm only @zozo 's prophet! I found the chart in one of his posts a while ago!


The credits go to @Manuel Arias  But note point 3 in the chart, the values represent ph/kh and color in the drop checker, not the water in the tank..


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## dw1305 (23 Nov 2016)

Hi all, 





Abcdefg said:


> Are these figures for the water supply zone likely to hold up in terms of what comes out of the tap in any given property? or could that vary substantially beyond these area readings from thames water?


It depends on where your water supply comes from. If it always comes from the same source, and that is a deep aquifer, all parameters will be pretty stable. 

If your water supply comes from a mix of sources, (reservoir, river, ground water) the hardness will vary seasonally, although because you are in the SE of the UK it will always be "hard".

cheers Darrel


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## Abcdefg (23 Nov 2016)

zozo said:


> But note point 3 in the chart, the values represent ph/kh and color in the drop checker, not the water in the tank..



I see, I think the thing that's confusing me is this;

 I think I understand that the drop checker is trying to measure co2 more accurately -through measuring evaporated co2 changing the pH of the known kh regent in the checker. ( Have I got that right?) Rather  than doing a pH test in the tank water and a calculation after.

However I see posts on ukaps and elsewhere of graphed pH logs ( cant seem to find an example post right now..). Are these tank water logs or some sort of colorimetric log of tge drop checker? 

Thanks


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## zozo (23 Nov 2016)

Abcdefg said:


> I think I understand that the drop checker is trying to measure co2 more accurately -through measuring evaporated co2 changing the pH of the known kh regent in the checker. ( Have I got that right?) Rather than doing a pH test in the tank water and a calculation after.



Yes that's the main point, in the dropchecker the kH value is static and never changes only the pH/color changes according to co2 amount.. In the tank water kH can change due to used hardscape or substrate or water change etc. Usualy 4dkH regent is used because the right color reflex 30ppm co2 with 4dkh.. With the above chart you can determine the approximate 30ppm color if you have a different dkh regent.


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## ian_m (23 Nov 2016)

Abcdefg said:


> I've been keeping a day to day log of my test strip tests, and I do have a few readings that seemed to be 3 or 6 for KH, would these have been completely erroneous, or is it possible for KH to move around this much whilst setting up a tank?


This shows why hobby test strips are of little use in, other than transferring your wallet contents to the fish shops wallet.

You water company states 14dKH yet you see 3-6dKH. Could be chlorine in the water affecting (bleaching ?) the test strip or could even be dissolved CO2, you will never know. I think water hardness test strip are actually pH based and measure the alkalinity of the water, thus will be easily influenced by other things in the water. 

You could try leaving a cup of water out 24hours to allow chlorine (& CO2) to degas, then measure dKH.


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## Abcdefg (24 Nov 2016)

Thanks zozo, Ian,

I'll try the leaving a cup out for 24 hours on some tap and some tank, and see what they say,just out of curiosity.

Is the drop checker the best way to calibrate the c02 then? or would a PH pen be useful to use for this? 

Is it useful to have a PH pen anyway? for other purposes day to day, week to week or month to month?


I'm hoping to add shrimps and fish in 9 days, and was wondering if it will be useful to verify the state of the tank then?

Currently I am jsut going to have to rely on a 6 in 1 test strip, and a liquid combined NH3 NH4 test to (hopefully) show that there is "0" ammonia and "0" nitrites before heading to the fish shop... does this seem wise? 

I have some juvenile snails (ramshorn I think currently about 3mm shell diameter) that snuck in on a pinch of fissidens fontonalis from the LFS and also some daphne or copepods or some such. <--- is this a sign that the water is habitable? the snails have been in for 2 weeks maybe and have grown loads from their <1mm initial size.

Thanks


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## Abcdefg (26 Nov 2016)

kadoxu said:


> Since you have no fish or shrimp yet, you can just test the PH before it goes off and adjust CO2 for the next day, then repeat the process everyday until you are happy with it.
> 
> Don't know if I already mentioned this for CO2 measurement...
> View attachment 94733
> ...




Am I misinterpreting this chart in some way?

it seems as if by using 4 dkh water in the drop checker then we would be targetting a yellow colour in order to get around 30 ppm?

'green' part os the chart table athat correspond to 30ppm would need a  6 to 10 dkh range.

Am I missing something about the nature of the solution in the drop checker, and indeed the whole chart? or is it that its designed so it errs on the side of caution, in terms of livestock

Thanks


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## kadoxu (26 Nov 2016)

Abcdefg said:


> Am I misinterpreting this chart in some way?
> 
> it seems as if by using 4 dkh water in the drop checker then we would be targetting a yellow colour in order to get around 30 ppm?
> 
> ...


You're looking at it the wrong way... 

First you go to the dKH column that has the value of your drop checker solution (usually 4dKH). 
Then, in that column, you go down to the value of CO2 you want (around 30ppm). 
And finally, from that value of CO2 you want you check the PH/color you should have (usually PH 6.6 or green color).

So, if you use a 4dKH drop checker solution, the solution's PH should be 6.6 (green) for you to have a 30.1ppm of CO2.


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## Abcdefg (26 Nov 2016)

kadoxu said:


> You're looking at it the wrong way...
> 
> First you go to the dKH column that has the value of your drop checker solution (usually 4dKH).
> Then, in that column, you go down to the value of CO2 you want (around 30ppm).
> ...




 thats the way I was looking at it, I guess i'm just interpreting the green as a yellowish green, as it's towards the top of the spectrum and i'm not looking at it in isolation...
cheers!


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## Abcdefg (7 Dec 2016)

Hi,

I'm back with some questions... sorry...

 I have N03 at 0 now it seems: tested with tetra liquid test kit and test strips.

Could I ask some questions about RO water use and re-mineralising and dosing EI at the same time?

I hope to be able to keep some shrimp at some point. I'd like some of these down the line hopefully:

http://www.planetinverts.com/Blue Tiger Shrimp.html

but I'm happy to take a while to get to them, I was wanting to add some galaxy rasboras / celestial danios ( or whichever way everyone is naming them) and some otos and possibly a small school of something else very small


So with the view to changing the water towards something more suitable, from it's previous london tap water source, I'm switching to RO water. last week I cut the tank water with 2/3 tap 1/3 RO, and at the start of this week I did a 95% water change where the replacement water was pure RO water.

It had a TDS of 0, then I added some salty shrimp GH+  (http://www.saltyshrimp.de/english/beesalt_bee_shrimp_mineral_gh_plus.html ) in order to remineralise which brought the TDS to about 150 -200 ish

Since this I have been carrying on dosing EI as before.

The tank seems to be fine. the plants are looking good, and there is substantially less algae, snails seem to be doing fine and I have now noticed some conical style shell snails (they're tiny though) in addition to the ramshorns.

(I have also notice hydra and planaria, but I will be dealling with these with 'no planaria' soon:   http://www.pro-shrimp.co.uk/genchem/157-genchem-no-planaria-50g.html)

a few Questions:

(1)   I'm wondering whether the EI is going to have everything that the plants need without the tap water?  or if I need to dose so extra stuff.

the EI kit I have from aquarium plant food has Potassium Nitrate, Potassium Phosphate , Magnesium Sulphate and chelated trace (not specified what this contains), and I read this on another forum: 

 " if you want to use RO water with Shrimp speciality re-mineralization salt or solution, you will need to dose additional Manganese, Zinc, Boron and Molybdenum"    ( http://www.shrimpnow.com/forum/showthread.php/11571-Guide-on-Setting-Up-Planted-Shrimp-Tank)

(2) is it worth considering cutting the RO with some tap to add back traces? or is this self defeating? I suppose I'd rather not cut it as it might defeat the purpose somewhat, and pure RO with the right additives would be informative from a learning perspective and perhaps easier to deal with known definite minerals rather than surprises?

Many Thanks,

Tom


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## ian_m (7 Dec 2016)

Abcdefg said:


> chelated trace (not specified what this contains),


http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/fertilisers/dry-chemicals/dry-salts/chelated-trace-180.html

Which is actually this.
http://uk.solufeed.com/products/chelates/solufeed-tec

EI generally contains in excess of the nutrients required for your plants, which is where the estimative bit comes from, so unless your tank is extremely packed with plants I doubt it is a nutrient deficiency. You could up the EI dose if you feel plants are not  doing well.

Generally people cut RO with tap so as to add hardness back (and save money, with RO working out typically 2p per litre if on a water meter). Fish, plants and shrimp will suffer if water is too soft. They generally dilute to a known hardness ie if was 20dKH dilute 50:50 to 10dKH. Try not to get below 8dKH as things like pH pens won't give reliable readings and you are reducing the buffering from a pH crash, though many people operate fine at 4dKH.


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## Abcdefg (8 Dec 2016)

ian_m said:


> http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/fertilisers/dry-chemicals/dry-salts/chelated-trace-180.html
> 
> Which is actually this.
> http://uk.solufeed.com/products/chelates/solufeed-tec
> ...




Thanks Ian,

So, if there's no need to worry about deficiency, which as you say is the whole ethos of EI, then do I need to worry about excess?

I understand that water changes are part of the EI method, and stop the ferts from accumulating in the tank over time...

however with shrimp should I be worried about the resulting TDS from remineralising with a shrimp remineraliser and EI at the same time? I have no experience with keeping shrimp or fish yet so I'm not clear on this:

- are the TDS levels quoted for shrimp water conditions ment as an indication of overall water quality?

- if so then can I exceed those levels because I know that the shrimp remineraliser and the EI dosing contain only benign minerals and traces.

- or are these TDS guides because shrimp can be effected by the TDS levels irrespective of the which solids are dissolved? so even if it doesn't contain any tap water nasties it can still effect them?  Obviously I wont plan on exceeding the TDS levels by multiple hundreds, but for example if the sorts of shrimp I'd like to keep might be said to like 150 TDS, and my remineralised RO waer had a TDS of 300 - 350 would that be a problem?

Thanks,

Tom


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## ian_m (8 Dec 2016)

Abcdefg said:


> and stop the ferts from accumulating in the tank over time...


That's one part of the reason for weekly water changes, but biggest reason is to remove the waste organics produced by the plants in such a high energy environment. You can probably dose EI for weeks with nitrates rising to 100's of ppm without issue, but leave the waste in the water too long and algae quickly moves in....


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## Abcdefg (12 Dec 2016)

ian_m said:


> That's one part of the reason for weekly water changes, but biggest reason is to remove the waste organics produced by the plants in such a high energy environment. You can probably dose EI for weeks with nitrates rising to 100's of ppm without issue, but leave the waste in the water too long and algae quickly moves in....



Thanks Ian, 

could I ask a bit more about EI?

I was under the impression that EI (in my case the starter kit mentioned above) should provide all of the 'nutrients' apart from CO2 and light, that plants would require to grow. 

would it be the case that if you didn't have any livestock, then pure RO with standard EI dosing would be all that they needed? or would their be possible defficiencies?

I ask this as I might have noticed a change in my plants with some translucency in new growth and tips, and I'm wondering if they are missing something that was in the Tap, or whether they are just adapting and will be ok after they transition to the new conditions?

Would they need to transition in this way? for example if GH, KH, tds and PH have changed?

Thanks,

Tom


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## ian_m (13 Dec 2016)

Abcdefg said:


> would it be the case that if you didn't have any livestock, then pure RO with standard EI dosing would be all that they needed? or would their be possible defficiencies?


Not recommended to use pure RO as has no pH buffering capacity and no calcium.

Lack of pH buffering capacity means that you can get pH crashes, pH drops to exceeding low values, very very easily possible killing the plants and certainly very adverse effect to any fish. Basically without buffering even the smallest amount of acid will cause significant pH drops. You really need to add some hardness back to the RO by either cutting with your tap water, which I assume is hard or why else spend money producing RO (3p a litre is typical cost) or add re-mineraliser to bring up kH to 4-8 range typically. 

You also need to cut or re-mineralise RO to add some calcium back or else plants can suffer calcium deficiency. This generally shows as poor, distorted and yellowing new leaves on the plants.


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## Abcdefg (13 Dec 2016)

ian_m said:


> or add re-mineraliser to bring up kH to 4-8 range typically.
> 
> You also need to cut or re-mineralise RO to add some calcium back or else plants can suffer calcium deficiency. This generally shows as poor, distorted and yellowing new leaves on the plants.



... oh dear, I think I'm quite possibly experiencing this...

I am using a shrimp remineralising product, but I'm not sure exactly what it contains. 

Is there a straightforward way to add calcium on its own?

Thanks


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## ian_m (13 Dec 2016)

Abcdefg said:


> Is there a straightforward way to add calcium on its own?


1. Cut with tap water, if your water is hard, assuming this is why you are using RO in the first place.
2. Use commercial remineralising products.
3. Make your own, considerably cheaper re-mineraliser. http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/RO.htm


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