# South American fish choice



## Paul Kettless (18 Jan 2021)

Hi All,

I have been doing some homework and plenty of reading based around the hardscape and Mopani wood that I already have for my As900. I will be going for a triangular composition, heavily planted in one section Im hoping to have areas at the front that will allow me to have a couple of small soiled areas to carpet with a corner sand section. The scape will give me plenty of open swimming space for tetras  This will all be easy plants of south american origion (seperate post for peoples thoughts on types, with maybe a couple of medium just to see how well they do) as I am starting fairly low tech, so no injected C02.  However I have every intention of doing so as and when knowledge and funds allow it.  Filtration will be quite high as I will be running to external canister filters, as I love my fish.

It seems that the wood, despite being from Africa would lend itself to a South American biotope. I wont stick religiously to this, but its the type of tank that I really enjoy, and love the lush greens.

With the fish, I have been reading an article by Filipe Olivera and to keep a balance of a scape, and not making it look too hectic, I should aim to stick with no more than 2 different species of shoaling fish for the mid section, 1 species for the top and the same for bottom dwellers. With maybe a showpiece pair.

Therefore, I would very much appreciate your opinions, and experiences of certain species, its worth mentioning that I live in the east with very hard water.  I have been considering an HMA filter, but need to research that more.  RO is def out of the questions, as we are on a water meter and for financial and ecological reasons, I just cannot justify one.  I appreciate one persons fish preference is not the others, but I value your input all the same. So at the moment this is my wishlist.......

*Upper Section*
Nannostomus Beckfordi (Pencil fish)  4-6

*Mid section*
Hyphessobrycon Flammeus (Red Flame Tetra) 13-15
Paracheirodon Axelrodi (Cardinal Tetra) 13-15

*Lower Section*
Corydoras Sterbai 6-8

*Showcase pair*
Microgeophagus Altispinosa (Neon Dwarf Ram)

*Additional *

Otocinclus
Amano Shrimp
Nerite Snails
Red Cherry Shrimp

Im not sure on the showcase pair, I appreciate that being a Cichlid, all shrimp are just a snack.  However an expensive one if they are going to deplete the tank.  My readings suggest that if the colour of shrimp blends in with the colour of the substrate the fish are less likely to predate.  Therefore it seems that Amano may be the best way to go as bigger in size and a clear colour on my sand substrate.

Many thanks for reading, and I look forward to reading your thoughts and comments.

Kind regards
Paul


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## The grumpy one (18 Jan 2021)

Very similar to my planned 80l South American bio.
Nannostomus marginatus (dwarf pencilfish) 4
Hyphessobrycon amandae (Ember tetra) 10
Paracheirodon simulans (Green neon tetra) 10
Corydoras hastatus (Dwarf corydoras) 4
Otocinclus Affinis (Dwarf Sucker Otocinclus) 4
Note: all around 2 - 3.5cm adult size (except Oto) because of size of tank.
Have not decided on showcase or if to get some shrimp.
So your selection sounds good as far as research goes


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## John q (18 Jan 2021)

Hi Paul, for your centre piece selection I'm not sure if your referring to Bolivian rams or Electric blue rams, either way I can comment on both.

EBR's are probably my fav but can be difficult to keep especially in new set up's. Also I've never done well with these or German rams at temps bellow 25.5 c.
Bolivian rams I feel are much more tolerant to water parameters and seem to do well in slightly lower temps, size wise they're a tad bigger than ebr's and once coloured up can be just as striking in the tank. I also think you'll have a better chance of getting decent stock of these as opposed to ebr's, which seem to be having the life bred out of them of late.

Just my thoughts.


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## Sammy Islam (18 Jan 2021)

I'm no expert but i have a pair of microgeophagus ramirezi, my male is a beast and i still have over 150+ Red cherry shrimp. They do hunt them but 9/10 times they fail as the shrimp are too quick. In the year my tanks been running, i've only seen them eating shrimp like 15 times and i spend a lot of time around my tank.


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## Paul Kettless (18 Jan 2021)

The grumpy one said:


> Very similar to my planned 80l South American bio.
> Nannostomus marginatus (dwarf pencilfish) 4
> Hyphessobrycon amandae (Ember tetra) 10
> Paracheirodon simulans (Green neon tetra) 10
> ...


Thanks for that, I did look at the Nannostomus Marginatus, but the care guide suggested moderately soft - Slightly hard water. Where the Beckfordi showed higher PH and KH


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## Paul Kettless (18 Jan 2021)

John q said:


> Hi Paul, for your centre piece selection I'm not sure if your referring to Bolivian rams or Electric blue rams, either way I can comment on both.
> 
> EBR's are probably my fav but can be difficult to keep especially in new set up's. Also I've never done well with these or German rams at temps bellow 25.5 c.
> Bolivian rams I feel are much more tolerant to water parameters and seem to do well in slightly lower temps, size wise they're a tad bigger than ebr's and once coloured up can be just as striking in the tank. I also think you'll have a better chance of getting decent stock of these as opposed to ebr's, which seem to be having the life bred out of them of late.
> ...


They are a bolivian ram, but I am more than open to suggestions, thats the point of this post.  Thanks very much for sharing your experiences of keeping them. Invaluable advice there.  Re temp I was hoping to keep the temp of the tank at 22, as this ties in well with our house temp.  Therefore it seems that German Rams are not ideal.


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## Paul Kettless (18 Jan 2021)

Sammy Islam said:


> I'm no expert but i have a pair of microgeophagus ramirezi, my male is a beast and i still have over 150+ Red cherry shrimp. They do hunt them but 9/10 times they fail as the shrimp are too quick. In the year my tanks been running, i've only seen them eating shrimp like 15 times and i spend a lot of time around my tank.


Well thats really good to hear, I would love to have some RCS in the tank, thanks for sharing.  I guess with all fish they see shrimp at the bottom of the food chain, and that some loses are inevitable.


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## castle (18 Jan 2021)

With super hard water, I think you'll struggle to get the best out of those fish, except from the rams which are bred this way now, almost all the others are imported. Microgeophagus Altispinosa are sand sifters, so in a tank that size I don't think you should be going mad on anything but sand and sticks as plants will be in the way of their natural behaviour.

Additionally, I would ignore what you read about where fish spend their time in the water, in an aquarium they'll be everywhere with few exceptions.


Now, I should note, im in the camp of less is more. I would at a push for for a shoal of Nannostomus Beckfordi and then the Microgeophagus in maybe a 3-1 F-M?


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## castle (18 Jan 2021)

Definetly make it a mission to buy 25L of RO a week to be part of your WC maintenance strategy.


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## mort (18 Jan 2021)

Going with what you like is the best approach so I won't suggest alternatives for the tetras as you have a nice mix already. The one thing I would say is up the pencilfish if possible. 6 is about the minimum you'd want as they form a hierarchy based on dominance and you will get the males sparring, if the ratio or males/females is low or you don't have enough space for them to avoid each other you won't get harmony. You can use lots of breaks in lines of sight, easy with your triangular scape plan, or simply up the numbers a bit more to divert any aggression towards a particular fish. 
They aren't a massively aggressive species and won't cause any issues for your other fish, they just have an interesting social structure. I've had my group for about 8 years now.

Nannacara anomala are quite a nice, small, peaceful species.
Laetacara dorsigera are another nice alternative to the rams if you want to consider other species. 
The one consideration when thinking of cichlids with cories is that they can be very aggressive towards them if they breed. The two species mentioned are pretty well behaved ime as are some of the more timid apistogramma but there are many apisto's and other cichlids that would not be a great mix.


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## mort (18 Jan 2021)

If you are keeping the water at 22c then the two cichlids I mentioned above are happy at that temp as are the pencilfish. It is slightly cooler than the cardinals will thrive in (consider a cooler period in winter and slightly warmer in summer if possible) and sterbai are a warmer water loving catfish which makes them so good for 28c discus tanks. Corydoras elegans is similar to the sterbai and it will thrive at the lower temp, as will panda cories, paleatus or pygmaeus and hastatus.


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## Paul Kettless (18 Jan 2021)

castle said:


> With super hard water, I think you'll struggle to get the best out of those fish, except from the rams which are bread this way now, almost all the others are imported. Microgeophagus Altispinosa are sand sifters, so in a tank that size I don't think you should be going mad on anything but sand and sticks as plants will be in the way of their natural behaviour.
> 
> Additionally, I would ignore what you read about where fish spend their time in the water, in an aquarium they'll be everywhere with few exceptions.
> 
> ...


Points taken with the altispinosa and seems like they may not be the fish for me then.  The plants obviously are just as important to me in the scape as the fish. Im not that worried about the tetras I will be buying them from an experienced local breeder who advises me that they are generally happy in our water. I take on board your point about buying some ro I hadnt really thought about that.

I appreciate that fish dont keep within a certain area of the tank all the time having kept fish for many decades, but Im surprised you said this. surely the planning stages we  can only look at fish species for general areas.


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## Paul Kettless (18 Jan 2021)

mort said:


> Going with what you like is the best approach so I won't suggest alternatives for the tetras as you have a nice mix already. The one thing I would say is up the pencilfish if possible. 6 is about the minimum you'd want as they form a hierarchy based on dominance and you will get the males sparring, if the ratio or males/females is low or you don't have enough space for them to avoid each other you won't get harmony. You can use lots of breaks in lines of sight, easy with your triangular scape plan, or simply up the numbers a bit more to divert any aggression towards a particular fish.
> They aren't a massively aggressive species and won't cause any issues for your other fish, they just have an interesting social structure. I've had my group for about 8 years now.
> 
> Nannacara anomala are quite a nice, small, peaceful species.
> ...


Thanks for your input and suggestions much appreciated, I will be sure to research your recommendations.



mort said:


> If you are keeping the water at 22c then the two cichlids I mentioned above are happy at that temp as are the pencilfish. It is slightly cooler than the cardinals will thrive in (consider a cooler period in winter and slightly warmer in summer if possible) and sterbai are a warmer water loving catfish which makes them so good for 28c discus tanks. Corydoras elegans is similar to the sterbai and it will thrive at the lower temp, as will panda cories, paleatus or pygmaeus and hastatus


I didnt realise that Cardinals needed that high a temperature, the temp of 22 was something that I have been reading on here regularly as being the optimum range for a planted tank.  On that basis I maybe well look at an alternative species.  Real shame as I adore the colours, as does swmbo.  Will also look at the other Corys you have suggested.  Would raising the temp by a degree so help at all I wonder?


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## castle (18 Jan 2021)

Someone is breeding Hyphessobrycon amandae or Paracheirodon simulans? Hmm, I wouldn't mind tracking them down - got a number or email?


Paul Kettless said:


> I appreciate that fish dont keep within a certain area of the tank all the time having kept fish for many decades, but Im surprised you said this. surely the planning stages we  can only look at fish species for general areas.



Sure, I wans't intentionally being patronsing and apologise if it came across that way, I just think your tank will be rather busy and wanted to make the point that they will be all over the place.


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## Paul Kettless (18 Jan 2021)

castle said:


> Sure, I wans't intentionally being patronsing and apologise if it came across that way, I just think your tank will be rather busy and wanted to make the point that they will be all over the place.


Not taken that way at all, and no offence was taken, dont worry I am no snowflake, I actually prefer people to be blunt and honest, thats the whole point of these forums to discus, learn from one an ther and sometimes diss-agree.  I appreciate your points and your comments.  All input is very valuable.


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## shangman (18 Jan 2021)

Is there any option for you to use some rainwater in your tank? That would really help bring the hardness down, I think p much all the SA species love soft water more than anything! It doesn't have to be a lot, any % would help.

A suggestion I have for your show pair (or trio) would be Apistogramma Borellii. They like the lower temp and I think are more tolerant of harder water, and they're lovely shades of blue and yellow. Apistos do sift sand, but they also will eat from the water and whenever it falls, so if here's just a bit of sand I think it'd be ok. They're also one of the most chill Apistos. I also love Bolivian Rams, totally get why you'd go for them! SA cichlids don't breed that much in harder water (or the eggs don't survive), so if your water is harder you might not have to worry about them breeding and being aggressive with other bottomdwellers.

If you could get a bit of rainwater you go for Corydoras Habrosus which are smaller (but wild caught so need to add some softness), then you could have a few more of them. And then you could add some more pencilfish, I think 8 - 10 would make for a more interesting show for you. All the fish you want all do better in bigger groups (unlike most of the SA cichlids bolivian rams also often live in groups), you'll get more exciting behaviour from having a good amount of a few species, over a few of a lot of species.


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## mort (18 Jan 2021)

It's a tricky one with temperatures really, there is what is ideal for fish and what is ideal for plants and a lot of aquascapers are more plant orientated, so the fish are the ones that occasionally have less than an optimum habitat (iwagumi for instance are the opposite of what the average schooling fish would like to live in, ie no cover).
If you look at seriously fish then they tend to show natural conditions the fish are found in with a temperature range. It's good for guidence but not to be taken as gospel. For cardinals they state the minimum temp as 23c https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/paracheirodon-axelrodi/?sfw=pass1610993586  so 22c isn't far off a good min and would probably be ok if you get a higher temp on average over the summer. Neons can take it slightly cooler, down to about 21c  https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/paracheirodon-innesi/ but everything is a balancing act and you need to consider what they will thrive in rather than survive.

So temp is just something to consider, upping it a degree probably won't make too much difference. I keep my pencilfish tank at 22c (heater set as 22c minimum) and they do ok when the tank sits at this temperature but when the days grow longer and the temp rises, so does their energy levels and libido. The room gets direct sunlight so the temp can go up to 28-29c in the summer but they have lived long lives because they have a cooler winter break. So don't think of temperature as a linear year line thing.


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## Paul Kettless (18 Jan 2021)

shangman said:


> Is there any option for you to use some rainwater in your tank? That would really help bring the hardness down, I think p much all the SA species love soft water more than anything! It doesn't have to be a lot, any % would help.
> 
> A suggestion I have for your show pair (or trio) would be Apistogramma Borellii. They like the lower temp and I think are more tolerant of harder water, and they're lovely shades of blue and yellow. Apistos do sift sand, but they also will eat from the water and whenever it falls, so if here's just a bit of sand I think it'd be ok. They're also one of the most chill Apistos. I also love Bolivian Rams, totally get why you'd go for them! SA cichlids don't breed that much in harder water (or the eggs don't survive), so if your water is harder you might not have to worry about them breeding and being aggressive with other bottomdwellers.
> 
> If you could get a bit of rainwater you go for Corydoras Habrosus which are smaller (but wild caught so need to add some softness), then you could have a few more of them. And then you could add some more pencilfish, I think 8 - 10 would make for a more interesting show for you. All the fish you want all do better in bigger groups (unlike most of the SA cichlids bolivian rams also often live in groups), you'll get more exciting behaviour from having a good amount of a few species, over a few of a lot of species.


Rain water isnt really an option as it would be difficult for me to collect and store do to limited outside space.  However, and RO unit could easily be installed.  I contacted my local fish supplier and he would charge £5.00 for 25ltrs, and it would then have to be mineralised.  With a weekly water change of 50% of approx 80litres that would be an expensive way of getting it, even if it is cut with tap water.  Im going to look much further into this, am I right in saying that I would not need an ro/di unit, just ro, and can this be switched off when not in use or does it have to run 24/7.

Thanks for the recommendation on the fish I will def have a look at all that is being suggested from people.  Nothing is set in stone, and I love Apistogramma's so no real compromise needed if thats what it takes for the benefit of my fish.


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## Paul Kettless (18 Jan 2021)

mort said:


> It's a tricky one with temperatures really, there is what is ideal for fish and what is ideal for plants and a lot of aquascapers are more plant orientated, so the fish are the ones that occasionally have less than an optimum habitat (iwagumi for instance are the opposite of what the average schooling fish would like to live in, ie no cover).
> If you look at seriously fish then they tend to show natural conditions the fish are found in with a temperature range. It's good for guidence but not to be taken as gospel. For cardinals they state the minimum temp as 23c https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/paracheirodon-axelrodi/?sfw=pass1610993586  so 22c isn't far off a good min and would probably be ok if you get a higher temp on average over the summer. Neons can take it slightly cooler, down to about 21c  https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/paracheirodon-innesi/ but everything is a balancing act and you need to consider what they will thrive in rather than survive.
> 
> So temp is just something to consider, upping it a degree probably won't make too much difference. I keep my pencilfish tank at 22c (heater set as 22c minimum) and they do ok when the tank sits at this temperature but when the days grow longer and the temp rises, so does their energy levels and libido. The room gets direct sunlight so the temp can go up to 28-29c in the summer but they have lived long lives because they have a cooler winter break. So don't think of temperature as a linear year line thing.


Your right it is a tricky one, and I want to have some lovely plants.  However, I come from a background of fish keeping,  In my mind fish are living, and plants well if they die I can just buy more.  My livestocks welfare will always be the priority in my tank.  I understand what you are saying about the temp, its there to set the minimum level and not the highest.  This tank is in an alcove and nowhere near direct sunlight, but as you said gets warmer in the summer months. It plays havoc with my pizza dough lol.


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## jaypeecee (18 Jan 2021)

Paul Kettless said:


> ...its worth mentioning that I live in the east with very hard water.


Hi @Paul Kettless

Could you let us have your water KH and GH, please? If you haven't measured these, please get hold of a full water report from your water company. On the face of it, your tap water may be too hard for South American species of fish, as others have pointed out. I have kept and bred Mikrogeophagus ramirezi (German Blue Rams). I would suggest avoiding any of these Rams that have been genetically modified, e.g. Balloon Rams.

JPC


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## Paul Kettless (18 Jan 2021)

Hi JPC,

I have an additonal post Suffolk water anybody and this is the report that I obtained from the water company.  Thanks very much for your input.


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## Paul Kettless (18 Jan 2021)

I dont have any test kits at the moment, but I do have a TDS meter on order, and I shall order some testing kits soon.


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## Paul Kettless (18 Jan 2021)

castle said:


> Someone is breeding Hyphessobrycon amandae or Paracheirodon simulans? Hmm, I wouldn't mind tracking them down - got a number or email?


Sorry I missed this part of the message, the guys goes by the name of East Coast Aquatics, you will find him on FB, runs it from his home in Lowestoft. And apologies I dont want to mislead you I should have said supplier and not breeder. Use of wrong words there.


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## jaypeecee (18 Jan 2021)

Hi @Paul Kettless 

I'll get back to you tomorrow but you should get valuable comments back from others before then.

JPC


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## Paul Kettless (18 Jan 2021)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Paul Kettless
> 
> I'll get back to you tomorrow but you should get valuable comments back from others before then.
> 
> JPC


Oh Im sure I will and thanks very much, I am in no hurry at all this is all in the planning stages, tank not even delivered yet. I would rather get it right at this point rather than later.  It seems that an RO is the way forward as I dont want to be restricted.


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## jaypeecee (18 Jan 2021)

Paul Kettless said:


> I shall order some testing kits soon.


Hi @Paul Kettless 

Test kits are out of favour with some people in the hobby. But, I use them and wouldn't be without 'em. There are good and bad test kits, just like anything else. More information to follow tomorrow...

JPC


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## John q (18 Jan 2021)

Paul Kettless said:


> Your right it is a tricky one, and I want to have some lovely plants.  However, I come from a background of fish keeping,  In my mind fish are living, and plants well if they die I can just buy more.  My livestocks welfare will always be the priority in my tank.


Probably cause a sh*t storm this being a plant oriented forum but agree with you 100% there paul, to me my fish are far more important than the plants.
I keep my tanks around 26c which to me is the mean temp for the various varieties of fish I keep, its likely a tad low for some and a tad high for others. Plant wise its probably not ideal but does give me a good excuse as to why my plants aren't perfect.

Cheers.


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## Paul Kettless (18 Jan 2021)

John q said:


> Probably cause a sh*t storm this being a plant oriented forum but agree with you 100% there paul, to me my fish are far more important than the plants.
> I keep my tanks around 26c which to me is the mean temp for the various varieties of fish I keep, its likely a tad low for some and a tad high for others. Plant wise its probably not ideal but does give me a good excuse as to why my plants aren't perfect.
> 
> Cheers.


Oh I love my plants and I want to keep them for sure, thats why I am here. but not to the detriment of my inhabitants. As far as I am concerned its all about having a balanced equilibrium.


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## Conort2 (18 Jan 2021)

I’d just go a couple of degrees warmer than you originally planned, 24-25 degrees will suit the fish much better and the plants should be fine. All the fish you have chosen will be fine however as mentioned by the others softer water will definitely bring out the best in most South American species. I’d recommend apistogramma borelli or cacutoides if you’re new to apistogramma, they’re hardy and pretty forgiving. The nannacara mentioned are also another great hardy dwarf cichlid.

cheers

Conor


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## alto (18 Jan 2021)

Another (Serious) Fan vote for Seriously Fish - the fish profiles are one of the best (OK The Best  ) starting points when planning fish species for your aquarium
I don’t know how “pencilfish” got the reputation for being OK in smaller numbers, I’d consider 10-12 a minimum group size, and if they’re rarely available in your area begin with 14-16 in case of losses 
- especially when planning a rimless, you must allocate some numbers for “flying fish”
I recommend dropping the water level 4-8cm below the rim when adding new fish, and maintaining this level for a couple weeks at least, the CO2 fluctuations may also “encourage” new fish to consider the Jump to new waters (it may just make them more reactive etc) and you may want to do this when you begin adding CO2

Note if you’re planning CO2, I’d suggest adding this from the start - your plants will transition and grow in much more easily (quickly, better leaf structure etc etc) 

It’s also much easier if you establish plants and algae crew before adding your fish species, this gives you time to sort good (stable) CO2 levels, light times, water (in tank) measurements/(tap) fluctuations, temperature etc (especially if you’re just wanting to go with room ambient temp, how much does this drop overnight) 

If you get a decent amount of rain, set up a tall narrow barrel for storage, not too space consuming and cheaper than the RO you’re being quoted (once you pay off the barrel etc cost) - check local grocery shops for RO/DI water, they are usually very economic (but ask how they’re monitoring water quality and safety)

You mention wanting to do SA plants to complement SA fish theme, I’d suggest opening this up if you want “easy” plants, carpet plants etc, especially if you want to do this with some economy and local availability (of plants)

Filipe Oliveira mentions his tank temps (re breeding M ramirezi, successful raising of fry etc) 

M altispinosa really does so much better when kept in a group, I’d suggest 5-6 with both males and females (while some people do keep a “pair” successfully, these fish are so “happy” in a group)

Rams and Shrimp - I only keep groups of M ramirezi, and they have always eventually become very efficient group hunters of my shrimp (very interesting behaviour to watch, not so happy for the shrimp), though young shrimp will often live very successfully below a Micranthemum Monte Carlo or Eleocharis hair grass carpet 
( again if you establish a large breeding population and dense plant areas first, shrimp survival is much more likely)

Another vote for A borelli for a community dwarf cichlid 
(I’d add any dwarf cichlids last)

Re fish selection, I’d likely choose black phantoms in place of the red, as their colour will provide a nice contrast to the “red” fish you’re planning, their behaviour is also very interesting 





						Hyphessobrycon megalopterus – Black Phantom Tetra (Megalamphodus megalopterus, Megalamphodus rogoaguae) — Seriously Fish
					






					www.seriouslyfish.com
				




Note that if you’re adding fish over time, a quarantine/hospital tank is strongly recommended so you can avoid treating plants and shrimp, snails etc, along with your fish (depending upon cabinet construction, you may be able to hide this inside your EA 900, choose an economic all in one (AIO) system or it can be as simple as a glass box with sponge filter + some sort of lid ... better yet, sneak a Nano cube into the kitchen)


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## Paul Kettless (18 Jan 2021)

alto said:


> Another (Serious) Fan vote for Seriously Fish - the fish profiles are one of the best (OK The Best


I now have this added to my favourites, and will be my reference guide for future reading, thanks for this


alto said:


> I don’t know how “pencilfish” got the reputation for being OK in smaller numbers


I actually was watching the Aquarium co-op and Cory suggested groups of 6 and up


alto said:


> Note if you’re planning CO2, I’d suggest adding this from the start - your plants will transition and grow in much more easily (quickly, better leaf structure etc etc)


I did consider that, and actually did a separate post on why newbies are advised to go low tech, and the large majority of the replys suggested to stay away from c02 and high tech as  when things do go wrong, it is easier to resolve low tech, and gives the newbie more time to rectify things.  For now Im going to get my head around the basics, buy plenty of easy plants and learn the fundamentals and basics.


alto said:


> especially if you’re just wanting to go with room ambient temp, how much does this drop overnight)


Im not going to go with ambient room heating it will def be with a heater, I mentioned that as we have our heating pretty much set to 22, and was working on the principle that the heater wouldnt be working overtime trying to heat the tank.

Really appreciate your time and effort in the reply Alto, some really good info there, and food for thought.  I will def be looking at the pencil fish numbers and reconsider.  I think from the sound advice that has already been given the Rams are off the list.  Not sure about swapping out the flame tetras, the good lady loves them, and with the cardinals were the only 2 fish that she really liked.

Regarding the water situation and hardness, it just goes to prove who sets up the bills and organises the companies in this house, as swmbo informs me that she never arranged the water meter and that we are paying flat rate.  When the pandemic took hold, she put it on the back burner.  On that basis, and I have my mind set on what I want to achieve now, Im going to buy an RO Unit, and cut it with my tap water.  Im sure it can only help in the long run.



alto said:


> Note that if you’re adding fish over time, a quarantine/hospital tank is strongly recommended so you can avoid treating plants and shrimp, snails etc, along with your fish (depending upon cabinet construction, you may be able to hide this inside your EA 900, choose an economic all in one (AIO) system or it can be as simple as a glass box with sponge filter + some sort of lid ... better yet, sneak a Nano cube into the kitchen)



I have a quarantine tank yes, alas its not going to be in the cabinet as I bought the tank only, the cabinet is a drawer unit that we have. The Nano would be a fabulous idea, but Im still working on a coffee machine for the kitchen, let alone another tank lol

Kind regards
Paul


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## Paul Kettless (19 Jan 2021)

Im not disputing anything that you guys have been telling me, but George comments that at Aquarium Gardens they have Hardwater in St Ives, and use nothing but tap water, and no need for RO, yet they have an abundance of tetras in there tanks.  This hobby makes my head spin, no wonder I dont sleep lol.


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## castle (19 Jan 2021)

Paul Kettless said:


> Im not disputing anything that you guys have been telling me, but George comments that at Aquarium Gardens they have Hardwater in St Ives, and use nothing but tap water, and no need for RO, yet they have an abundance of tetras in there tanks.  This hobby makes my head spin, no wonder I dont sleep lol.




So, this is one of those things that we know about and acknowledge. If you go to any pet store in the east of England, you'll see almost all aquariums using tap water except (in the good ones) maybe a rack for very expensive softwater fish (expensive L numbers, Atlums, some Corys etc).

The fish are on the surface fine in harder water, but they likely will not breed, breeding for me is the benchmark to whether water is fine. Of course, some fish will breed in hard water. In general, if you get the water right the fish will be just fine. I remember reading that cardinals on dissection showed blockages in internal organs when kept in hardwater. Hardwater also increases pH, so that's something to consider. Ultimately, aquarium shops want to sell fish so keeping them in tap water is one barrier down. I suspect if we could test, you'd see a longer life of fish if they're in a similar parameter to water from where they were caught to where the now live. 

I like AG's tanks, and dare I say I'm a semi-regular there. I don't think they're spawning in those tanks, but maybe @Siege can say.


----------



## John q (19 Jan 2021)

Apologies if this de rails the thread but I have a question re water temp. 

On reading a "limited" number of studies on the subject it is suggested that increasing water temperatures in the lab and in natural waterways actually increased plant growth, the cutt of temps here were ~25c.
So is it that at these higher temperatures in an aquarium we have more difficulty maintaining Co2/O2 levels, or are the higher temps more favorable toward algae or is it a combination of the above (or maybe something else).

Again sorry for going off topic paul.


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## Paul Kettless (19 Jan 2021)

castle said:


> So, this is one of those things that we know about and acknowledge. If you go to any pet store in the east of England, you'll see almost all aquariums using tap water except (in the good ones) maybe a rack for very expensive softwater fish (expensive L numbers, Atlums, some Corys etc).
> 
> The fish are on the surface fine in harder water, but they likely will not breed, breeding for me is the benchmark to whether water is fine. Of course, some fish will breed in hard water. In general, if you get the water right the fish will be just fine. I remember reading that cardinals on dissection showed blockages in internal organs when kept in hardwater. Hardwater also increases pH, so that's something to consider. Ultimately, aquarium shops want to sell fish so keeping them in tap water is one barrier down. I suspect if we could test, you'd see a longer life of fish if they're in a similar parameter to water from where they were caught to where the now live.
> 
> I like AG's tanks, and dare I say I'm a semi-regular there. I don't think they're spawning in those tanks, but maybe @Siege can say.


That makes sense, I want my fish to live, not survive.  Just intreagued me, and videos like this in some ways give the inexperienced hobbiest the wrong information. As like many others, when doing research I watch videos on you tube. Obvs I dont take everything I read as gospel, and "joe blogs in his fish room with 100 views I take that with a pinch of salt. However, from someone like George Farmer a hugely respected aquascaper, I wouldnt even challenge what I am seeing, and just assume that if its ok for one of the most respected aquascaping shops in the UK, then I must be able to do the same, as we both have hard water.  Well mine is actually bordering very hard, and I guess living on the coast has more sodium.  To me as some

I posted the video on here to add to the debate and discussion, not to shadow doubt on what many have you have input.  To learn is to challenge ideas, and implement the findings in a way that suits me best.


----------



## Paul Kettless (19 Jan 2021)

John q said:


> Apologies if this de rails the thread but I have a question re water temp.
> 
> On reading a "limited" number of studies on the subject it is suggested that increasing water temperatures in the lab and in natural waterways actually increased plant growth, the cutt of temps here were ~25c.
> So is it that at these higher temperatures in an aquarium we have more difficulty maintaining Co2/O2 levels, or are the higher temps more favorable toward algae or is it a combination of the above (or maybe something else).
> ...


No problem at all, its all relevant to the discussion and debate. I will be interested to see the responses.


----------



## dw1305 (19 Jan 2021)

Hi all, 


John q said:


> On reading a "limited" number of studies on the subject it is suggested that increasing water temperatures in the lab and in natural waterways actually increased plant growth, the cutt of temps here were ~25c.
> So is it that at these higher temperatures in an aquarium we have more difficulty maintaining Co2/O2 levels,


It obviously depends on the plants what their optimal growth temperatures are, but I don't think that 25oC is unreasonable as temperature where most of the plants, that we grow, are going to be near their optimum growth rate. 

Increasing temperature is very relevant to all dissolved gas levels.  This is a conversion chart for converting <"dissolved oxygen saturation to mg/L (ppm) values">. You draw a diagonal line through water temperature and ppm DO and it gives % saturation.






cheers Darrel


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## PARAGUAY (19 Jan 2021)

I have kept just black neons and glowlight tetras in large groups they tend to stay together. Interesting marc mdfish tanks has added columbian tetras to his South American set up and noticed because of their bigger size and presence the many groups of smaller tetras shoal more and in case of Silvertips the ha ha heirachy "fights" stopped and groups shoal together. Much like they would in the Amazon


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## mort (19 Jan 2021)

I live in norwich and our water is liquid chalk. I cut mytap with rainwater by differing amounts for my couple of tanks depending on what is in them but my brother who only lives a couple of houses up the road uses exclusively tap water. So its not scientific but I find my pencilfish live much longer lives than his (which were bred my me so same genetics) and it's has to be down to his harder water as I do all his maintanence and he nicks all my fish food. 
I don't keep cardinals but his do well for 2 years or so before they begin to dwindle but I know cardinals can live probably twice that so I think water does play a big part in longevity at least.

Can tetra and south Americans live in hard water, quite a few yes as but it's not necessarily optimal. I think why you get conflicting views is due to a different perspective on forums. This forum has knowledgeable people who understand how we can easily manipulate our water to suit it's inhabitants so push more in that direction, whereas your average shop is just happy if you understand you need a filter and how to do a water change.


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## mort (19 Jan 2021)

PARAGUAY said:


> I have kept just black neons and glowlight tetras in large groups they tend to stay together. Interesting marc mdfish tanks has added columbian tetras to his South American set up and noticed because of their bigger size and presence the many groups of smaller tetras shoal more and in case of Silvertips the ha ha heirachy "fights" stopped and groups shoal together. Much like they would in the Amazon



I think this only works at a certain point though. Columbian tetra can grow into real bruisers and really intimidate certain species when they are mature. I've certainly seem them push timid species into the plants when fully grown as well as starve them out. I think Marc is at the sweet spot at the moment where they aren't dominant enough, plus have the space, to annoy the smaller tetra.


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## PARAGUAY (19 Jan 2021)

I agree think hes keeping a watch. But the presence of a bigger fish if siutable could work. And like you say its a big tank with space and cover


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## Conort2 (19 Jan 2021)

Paul Kettless said:


> Im not disputing anything that you guys have been telling me, but George comments that at Aquarium Gardens they have Hardwater in St Ives, and use nothing but tap water, and no need for RO, yet they have an abundance of tetras in there tanks.  This hobby makes my head spin, no wonder I dont sleep lol.



They’ll survive in hard water but they won’t thrive. Since changing to rainwater a lot of my South American species won’t stop spawning, some which are noted to be quite difficult. They seemed happy in tap water but the change in condition is night and day.

Cheers


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## Paul Kettless (19 Jan 2021)

mort said:


> I live in norwich and our water is liquid chalk. I cut mytap with rainwater by differing amounts for my couple of tanks depending on what is in them but my brother who only lives a couple of houses up the road uses exclusively tap water. So its not scientific but I find my pencilfish live much longer lives than his (which were bred my me so same genetics) and it's has to be down to his harder water as I do all his maintanence and he nicks all my fish food.
> I don't keep cardinals but his do well for 2 years or so before they begin to dwindle but I know cardinals can live probably twice that so I think water does play a big part in longevity at least.
> 
> Can tetra and south Americans live in hard water, quite a few yes as but it's not necessarily optimal. I think why you get conflicting views is due to a different perspective on forums. This forum has knowledgeable people who understand how we can easily manipulate our water to suit it's inhabitants so push more in that direction, whereas your average shop is just happy if you understand you need a filter and how to do a water change.


Yes that makes sense, and I value peoples opinions and personal experiences.  I have made the decision to get an RO unit and I will stick with that, and I am confident that this help all my inhabitants happier in the long run.  As you said with your brother, it cannot be coincidental. As you live in Norwich, can I ask where you source your fish from?  I have not been to Maidenhead Aquatics for a good few years but the last time I was there I wasn't really impressed. Im happy to travel (well after pandemic) for good quality


----------



## Paul Kettless (19 Jan 2021)

Conort2 said:


> They’ll survive in hard water but they won’t thrive. Since changing to rainwater a lot of my South American species won’t stop spawning, some which are noted to be quite difficult. They seemed happy in tap water but the change in condition is night and day.
> 
> Cheers


Say no more, speaks volumes doesnt it.  Im glad I started this thread, at the beginning I was convinced that I wouldn't be going the RO route. Sound advise and guidance has made the purchase logical, ethical and for me, peace of mind knowing that I am doing all I can to the give my tank a better chance of success and balance.


----------



## mort (19 Jan 2021)

Paul Kettless said:


> As you live in Norwich, can I ask where you source your fish from?  I have not been to Maidenhead Aquatics for a good few years but the last time I was there I wasn't really impressed. Im happy to travel (well after pandemic) for good quality



I'm perhaps not the best person to ask as I don't really buy much. We've used taverham aquatics as a family for over 20 years and I'd happily recommend them but don't really go anywhere else and haven't been since 2019. The guy who runs it Allen will happily order anything in if you ask.

I have been to maidenhead but not since 2019 and it was ok but expensive (the garden centre its attached to is pretty extortionate so that might be why) . They had a good selection and the fish looked pretty healthy so I'd at least give them a look if you were passing. 

We have scaped nature in norwich which I haven't been to but want to. I don't think they do fish but they do plants very well. 

Castle lives round here so may be a better person to advise.

PS sorry about all the typos in my replies lately my stupid tablet loves to think it knows what I really meant to say, so changes everything to gibberish that I only see after I've been quoted.


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## Siege (19 Jan 2021)

castle said:


> So, this is one of those things that we know about and acknowledge. If you go to any pet store in the east of England, you'll see almost all aquariums using tap water except (in the good ones) maybe a rack for very expensive softwater fish (expensive L numbers, Atlums, some Corys etc).
> 
> The fish are on the surface fine in harder water, but they likely will not breed, breeding for me is the benchmark to whether water is fine. Of course, some fish will breed in hard water. In general, if you get the water right the fish will be just fine. I remember reading that cardinals on dissection showed blockages in internal organs when kept in hardwater. Hardwater also increases pH, so that's something to consider. Ultimately, aquarium shops want to sell fish so keeping them in tap water is one barrier down. I suspect if we could test, you'd see a longer life of fish if they're in a similar parameter to water from where they were caught to where the now live.
> 
> I like AG's tanks, and dare I say I'm a semi-regular there. I don't think they're spawning in those tanks, but maybe @Siege can say.



using tap water makes the hobby more accessible for most people.

Often see people who use RO water who have more issues than others because they donot do the water changes required due to hassle of getting RO water. Bear in mind making your own is a very slow business that produces lots of waste so not that great for the environment. Due to this RO water can take the fun out of the hobby.

However, Plants will grow better in soft water and the reds will be brighter. Fish will breed more readily -all if RO water is done properly.

I’d go with straight tapwater and full co2. I think the healthier the plants the healthier the fish. I know that when I changed to straight tapwater and full co2 my tanks never looked better and never have a fish disease (fingers crossed). Before I was always playing guess the illness.

Perhaps try out RO water later on if you want to play?

No right or wrong. It’s where you want to go with it. 😃


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## castle (19 Jan 2021)

LFS near-ish of note: 

Taverham garden centre gets my vote, they've been renovated recently too. I think they've gotten rid of their softwater tanks now, but I could be wrong. They've ordered in everything I've ever asked for, and I have asked for some oddities. They don't buy fish these days though as they did away with quarantine tanks a number of years ago.
Highway nursery has fallen from form, but used to specialise in South American fish, and had some beauties. I probabaly wouldn't drive out to it now unless I wanted to get imo the best fish and chips in Norfolk, which is from Porigland fish and chippy.
Angel aquatics out in North Walsham can get some fish in, and had an OK range (L numbers, etc)
Swallow Aquatics out in East Harling is a must visit, but I'm never impressed with their tanks even if they have one of the largest sumps/water change systems in the country. I think this is why there tanks are heavily over stocked.
Thetford aquatics is alright if you're in the area.
Amwell aquatics, good selections generally but quite standard fish now. Probably not worth driving to unless you call before to see if they have what you want.
Ely aquatics is ok if you're out this way.
Fish house aquatics out in Sudbury is a nice shop, and better than most on this list.
Maidenhead at Notcutts is not worth bothering with, neither are the maidenheads in Cambridge, good staff in Cambridge branches but tank health is poor.

A couple of good ones that died: Distant waters in Norwich was OK. Good set up but I think the guy running it just couldn't get enough people through the door, such a shame as I loved the shop - if I'd have known he (Mark) was closing it down, I would have offered to get involved =/. Going back eons, the Giant Pet store in 2006ish was the best aquatic shop in east anglia, in my eyes anyway.


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## jaypeecee (19 Jan 2021)

alto said:


> It’s also much easier if you establish plants and algae crew before adding your fish species, this gives you time to sort good (stable) CO2 levels, light times, water (in tank) measurements/(tap) fluctuations, temperature etc (especially if you’re just wanting to go with room ambient temp, how much does this drop overnight)


Hi @alto 



JPC


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## jaypeecee (19 Jan 2021)

Paul Kettless said:


> I am in no hurry at all this is all in the planning stages, tank not even delivered yet. I would rather get it right at this point rather than later. It seems that an RO is the way forward as I dont want to be restricted.



Hi @Paul Kettless

I suggest we wait until you have had your tank delivered before getting into some of the lower level detail such as test kits. You already have plenty to think about!

JPC


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## MWood (19 Jan 2021)

I lost all my pencil fish to jumping, even with a slightly reduced water level- both marginatus and beckfords - and I wouldn’t try them again without a lid. 

However I can vouch for Emperor tetras as being extremely forgiving as an impressive and attractive S American species. Mine bred and bred in a tank using London tap, and where the heater both got stuck on, and failed, with the tank going down to around 16 for a week while I was away. However, they certainly did better at 24 and when I started using rain water


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## sparkyweasel (19 Jan 2021)

castle said:


> Ultimately, aquarium shops want to sell fish so keeping them in tap water is one barrier down. I suspect if we could test, you'd see a longer life of fish if they're in a similar parameter to water from where they were caught to where the now live.


And a cynical person might think that it suits the shop if the fish don't live long and need replacing.


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## Paul Kettless (19 Jan 2021)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Paul Kettless
> 
> I suggest we wait until you have had your tank delivered before getting into some of the lower level detail such as test kits. You already have plenty to think about!
> 
> JPC


Thanks JPC it's probably wise


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## Paul Kettless (19 Jan 2021)

Siege said:


> using tap water makes the hobby more accessible for most people.
> 
> Often see people who use RO water who have more issues than others because they donot do the water changes required due to hassle of getting RO water. Bear in mind making your own is a very slow business that produces lots of waste so not that great for the environment. Due to this RO water can take the fun out of the hobby.
> 
> ...


Interesting perspective, I have to admit that time is not on my hands with long days in the motor industry, and I do worry that the tank may become a chore rather than an enjoyment.


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## Paul Kettless (19 Jan 2021)

sparkyweasel said:


> And a cynical person might think that it suits the shop if the fish don't live long and need replacing.





castle said:


> LFS near-ish of note:
> 
> Taverham garden centre gets my vote, they've been renovated recently too. I think they've gotten rid of their softwater tanks now, but I could be wrong. They've ordered in everything I've ever asked for, and I have asked for some oddities. They don't buy fish these days though as they did away with quarantine tanks a number of years ago.
> Highway nursery has fallen from form, but used to specialise in South American fish, and had some beauties. I probabaly wouldn't drive out to it now unless I wanted to get imo the best fish and chips in Norfolk, which is from Porigland fish and chippy.
> ...


Thanks very much for this information, its always good to know peoples opinions on places, quite a few places that I was not aware off. Without this damn pandemic me and the good lady will often take a drive somewhere on days off, so never say never, especially if there are fish and chips involved......


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## alto (19 Jan 2021)

Paul Kettless said:


> I have to admit that time is not on my hands with long days in the motor industry, and I do worry that the tank may become a chore rather than an enjoyment.


As this is your first planted tank, I’d suggest taking the simplest route


tap water: so you can quickly perform water changes whenever needed, and as often as dictated by unusual circumstances, eg, algae outbreak, fish illness etc
select livestock that will manage in your tap water (you likely can select domestic bred SA stock that will manage fine for some time, then gradually transition tank to an RO/tap mix)
if going the tap route, deal with a shop that keeps planted tank in this manner (Scaped Nature, Aquarium Gardens obviously come to mind) and follow their recommendations for plant species
add CO2 as this will definitely assist plants with hard water challenge (as you may guess I don’t agree that CO2 is a challenge for a beginning plant keeper - it makes such a difference in plant health, ease of transition etc - adding CO2 doesn’t mean you must also go high light, high nutrients, rapid plant growth etc ... follow the methodology where nutrients are enriched in the substrate with lean water column dosing)


Of course, if you go the RO route, it may be that you only ever have minimal algae issues, and you immediately (relatively) have the fish and style of tank you want (make sure to have sufficient water stored on hand for a 90% water change as this will mean that you can do a couple 50% water changes without needing to wait on RO production, you’ll also be prepared in case of any slowdowns with the RO system)

Frequent water changes, dealing with algae as soon as it appears (establish a varied algae crew from the start as they will always find algae before it’s obvious to the human eye), starting the tank with sufficient plants (and including some “auxiliary plants” Auxiliary plants - supporting plants for the aquarium - Tropica Aquarium Plants ), 6-8 hour maximum photoperiod (also consider ambient light effects if you’re choosing an evening photoperiod for viewing preferences) etc

I strongly suggest reading every page of Tropica’s website, as there is very good, succinct information there


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## Conort2 (20 Jan 2021)

Is there definitely no way you can squeeze a water butt in anywhere? It’ll make life a lot easier and best of all the water is free. I bought a RO unit back in November and haven’t had to get it out of the box yet thanks to the continuous supply of rain water in winter.

cheers


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## mort (20 Jan 2021)

Conort2 said:


> Is there definitely no way you can squeeze a water butt in anywhere? It’ll make life a lot easier and best of all the water is free. I bought a RO unit back in November and haven’t had to get it out of the box yet thanks to the continuous supply of rain water in winter.
> 
> cheers



I have an ro unit as well but try and use rainwater were possible. It's only really in the summer that the ro has ever come on and then I can divert the waste to the water butt for watering the garden.


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## dw1305 (20 Jan 2021)

Hi all,


Conort2 said:


> It’ll make life a lot easier and best of all the water is free.





mort said:


> I have an ro unit as well but try and use rainwater were possible.


Same for me, rainwater seems a hassle compared to turning the tap on <"but it has numerous advantages">.  A lot of <"serious aquarists use it">, it just doesn't get much publicity.

cheers Darrel


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## Paul Kettless (20 Jan 2021)

alto said:


> As this is your first planted tank, I’d suggest taking the simplest route
> 
> 
> tap water: so you can quickly perform water changes whenever needed, and as often as dictated by unusual circumstances, eg, algae outbreak, fish illness etc
> ...


You see this is why I love this site, as it gets you thinking outside of the box.  At first I didnt want an RO unit, but I could see the benefits in using one. @Siege starts the ball rolling with a good argument for tap, and is then backed up with some very good, honest, and accurate points form @alto.  We live in a small(ish) period fishing cottage, so space is minimal to say the least, a place to store large amount of water is just not viable or practical. Siege made a very good point about if we dont have enough water made up, water changes could be delayed, and good maintenance routines effected. Therefore, and thinking about my work and life balance, for me the RO way would present a degree of difficulty. Saying that I think I am still going to invest in one, sooner rather than later and work it in somehow in the future.

 In my earlier post about why we advise a newbie to go Low tech, quite a few off you said that some c02 injection is far better than nothing.  I get that, and I think with the amount of helpful people on here I feel fairly confident of using it, "he says with a grimace" I very recently bought Advins ONF Flat one 90w light, which is fully adjustable so I am covered there no matter what route I choose.

Thanks for the link to Tropica but I have already been on there and reading plenty regarding the easy plants, maybe a few mediums thrown in just to see how well they fair.


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## Paul Kettless (20 Jan 2021)

mort said:


> I have an ro unit as well but try and use rainwater were possible. It's only really in the summer that the ro has ever come on and then I can divert the waste to the water butt for watering the garden.





dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> 
> Same for me, rainwater seems a hassle compared to turning the tap on <"but it has numerous advantages">.  A lot of <"serious aquarists use it">, it just doesn't get much publicity.
> ...


OK, so I have been outside in our garden area this morning, and I think by moving a few things around I have found an area where I could put a 100ltr slimline water butt.  Maybe this is a daft question but I am assuming that you cut the water with your tap water when doing water changes? I have be honest I didnt even think that using rain water was viable. Once the tank is established, a 50% weekly water change would be around 80 litres or so and would take the whole thing every week if not.  Saying that if you are not using the water, do you not have to worry about it becoming stagnant and not aerated?


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## Paul Kettless (20 Jan 2021)

Conort2 said:


> Is there definitely no way you can squeeze a water butt in anywhere? It’ll make life a lot easier and best of all the water is free. I bought a RO unit back in November and haven’t had to get it out of the box yet thanks to the continuous supply of rain water in winter.
> 
> cheers


As above thanks for the suggestion, really appreciate your input.


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## mort (20 Jan 2021)

The only time my water butts have got stinky is when you get a build up of organic matter like leaves or berries fall in there. You can minimise this by keeping the guttering clean or by using a runoff from the downpipe FloPlast  Rainwater Diverter 70mm Black where you can add a bit of sponge to prefilter it first if needed. I also have two water butts connected and collect from the second so any sediment that may have settled in there isn't added to the tank (but it's not really a problem).
To do a weekly wc of 80 liters I think you would need a big storage capacity. I only tend to do water changes every fortnight as this works for me but struggle in summer for enough water.

Whilst I'd love to say rainwater is the way to go, if it's impractical or you can't gather enough to make it really worthwhile, it might be better to just go straight tap. I've never had many problems keeping plants In the 20+ years I've tried here on good old norfolk liquid chalk and I only go to the trouble of softening it because I wanted to breed more species of fish but as mentioned earlier by others that's not necessarily a problem with alot of the fish we keep today.


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## Conort2 (20 Jan 2021)

Paul Kettless said:


> OK, so I have been outside in our garden area this morning, and I think by moving a few things around I have found an area where I could put a 100ltr slimline water butt.  Maybe this is a daft question but I am assuming that you cut the water with your tap water when doing water changes? I have be honest I didnt even think that using rain water was viable. Once the tank is established, a 50% weekly water change would be around 80 litres or so and would take the whole thing every week if not.  Saying that if you are not using the water, do you not have to worry about it becoming stagnant and not aerated?


To be honest I use pure rainwater, but this is due to the fact I keep a few species which are black water specialists. For general South American species cut with tap is fine.

I haven’t had any issues in regards to water quality in the butt and do not aerate. I have daphnia in the butt, as long as they’re alive I can assume the water is fine. The bonus of daphnia is the live food which is added when you pump the water in to the tank. My pencil fish wait directly under the hose as they know what is coming.

cheers

Conor


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## Paul Kettless (20 Jan 2021)

Conort2 said:


> To be honest I use pure rainwater, but this is due to the fact I keep a few species which are black water specialists. For general South American species cut with tap is fine.





Conort2 said:


> I haven’t had any issues in regards to water quality in the butt and do not aerate. I have daphnia in the butt, as long as they’re alive I can assume the water is fine. The bonus of daphnia is the live food which is added when you pump the water in to the tank. My pencil fish wait directly under the hose as they know what is coming


Thanks for the additional info.  It seems like using a percentage of rain water even if it is a smaller amount can only be beneficial in the long run


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## shangman (20 Jan 2021)

I'm glad you're rethinking rainwater, it's such a cheap and eco-friendly option. As I said before, I use rainwater and my fish breed a lot and are much more colourful and healthier than the same species I've seen in tap tanks.

I have several of them attached to our 2 sheds, and they never get smelly or anything. I have one which is under a rosebush where the water is brown, but that one has lots of live food in it. You'll also get a lot of mosquito larvae in the summer, which the fish will find delicious. These waterbutts are also 5+ years old, and they've not been stagnant or gross at all (probably because rain water is quite pure so there isn't much to go gross) Definitely get the biggest one you can, so that you don't run out too much. I haven't run out of water at all this year, even in summer, when I was just using a small one. I have 2 20L cartons to store the water and bring it inside, which is especially useful when tehre's beena  lot of rain and I want to get as much as possible. 

When you set the tank up, you could do your first 2 weeks-1 month with full tap, then start doing 50% tap, 50% rainwater so that it's an even split by the time you get your fish, and then you won't waste any rainwater.


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## jaypeecee (20 Jan 2021)

Hi @Paul Kettless

During the drier seasons obviously needs some planning. But, there is always tap water available as others have suggested. When using the latter (and, sometimes, with only rain water) please ensure that you use a good tap water conditioner such as Seachem _Prime_. Going with RO water currently and for the foreseeable future is impractical whilst we are in the grip of a pandemic. I normally use remineralized RO water but I haven't used it for over a year now. Instead, I use mineralized or just straight rainwater whilst maintaining water hardness at a reasonably constant level.

JPC


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## AlecF (7 Oct 2021)

The Beckfords that I have are quite vicious, chasing peacock goby, Cory and amano shrimps. I'm making them a separate tank. I lost some to melafix and have a bad ratio just now, of 3M and 1F. I will get (lots) more F when I move them. It makes me laugh when I see them described as peaceful. I wish I knew what to keep them with – I don't mean to hijack the thread, but any advice welcome. They are going in a 60 litre cube; 40x40cm seems small for an Apisto. Maybe corys, but as I say, they have been chasing them in the larger tank I have (106l), and I don't want to repeat that. I do like the pencilfish, but wish I'd never got them for my community tank. Good luck with yours.


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## mort (7 Oct 2021)

I've had a colony of beckfords for a decade now and never even seen them look at a different fish species. I've bred them, swapped some out for new blood but maintain around 15-20 of them in a 120 tank all that time. I do tend to plant really heavily, jungle style though. My brother has 6 in his community and again they keep themselves to themselves. I do know people have had aggression from them but I've personally only seem conspecific aggression in terms of fish but they did decimate my cherry shrimp population (but only after living together seemingly harmlessly for 4-5 years).
The biggest tip I have is to provide heavy vegetation so they have breaks in line of sight but that's mainly so they don't get feisty with one another. Males will spar but I've never seen any damage from this and I always notice that when they are kept in a large enough number they tend to keep to themselves in the upper layers of the tank, so wouldn't notice other fish.
As an example of how quiet I actually find them I have not actively tried to breed them for 5 or so years but get enough babies come through that I still have to reduce the population frequently. They are too busy showing off to the girls to even worry about hunting, well hunting anything but shrimp but that's no longer a problem.


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## dw1305 (7 Oct 2021)

Hi all, 


AlecF said:


> It makes me laugh when I see them described as peaceful.


I think all the male "Pencil fish" (including _Copella spp. etc) _are pretty territorial. I've kept a few different ones and some of them have been distinctly homicidal.

cheers Darrel


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## AlecF (7 Oct 2021)

I'm happy for those they work with. I have a well planted tank. The aggression has gone beyond the species. My tank isn't high, which may be an issue. I suspect there may be different breeding lines with different behaviours. My peacocks and cories now hide away in corners and caves. I lost an amano, probably to shock. I lost a Cory, perhaps coincidence. It had no tail left and I'd not seen any fin rot. If it was just the males sparring I would be fine with that. They have big territories at ether end of the tank and attempt to keep all the other fish in some non-existent middle ground.


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## Conort2 (7 Oct 2021)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I think all the male "Pencil fish" (including _Copella spp. etc) _are pretty territorial. I've kept a few different ones and some of them have been distinctly homicidal.
> 
> cheers Darrel


I’ve found male pencil fish of certain species to be pretty aggressive, beckfords probably the worst but coral reds are a handful and can’t be kept in too small a tank. Mine also have the bizarre habit of nipping fins on fish when they’re newly introduced, however this ceases after a day or two and never happens again.

Cheers


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## mort (8 Oct 2021)

I like pencilfish, i find them far more interesting than the average normal tetra so perhaps i stick up for them a bit but I can definitely see why they could be aggressive and perhaps my experience is good because I keep 1 male to 4 females, so there is plenty of space for the males to show off to their girls, which they do constanlty, keeping themselves busy. I've kept a few other pencilfish and not really seen much aggression from them to either themselves or other fish, in fact most seem pretty timid. It may just come down to how I keep them compared others and I'm in that goldilock zone, or perhaps just lucky.
Every tank seems to be different and I'm actually having real problems with an ancistris that relentlessly chases away my cories. This is new behaviour for it but goes to show compatibility is always a gamble.

My brother has his little group of beckfords pencils with cardinals, pentazona barbs and another tetra that I can't remember but it's not as timid as the others and they get on fine. He does have a lido tank that are very tall so that might be why.


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