# Too much fertilizer.



## ForestDave (19 Apr 2021)

Hi. 
I thought I'd take the sometimes-given advice to put a small handful of Osmocote underneath my substrate when setting up the tank. I estimate I put about 17g over a 40x100cm base. The base has inch-high gravel/egg crate plastic keeping the rocks off of the glass and the substrate is about 3" to 4" deep. This was obviously too much as some fast-growing stem plants like Hygrophilla sp difformis and Pogosternon erectus are growing really slowly and don't look particularly happy.  Ludwigia repens diamond red is growing although I cut the top half from one stem the other day and stuck it in the substrate only for it to wilt as I presume it hit a hot spot of fertilizer.  On the plus side Hygrophila polysperma and Rotala H'ra are happy, although the latter is bright green and has no hint of redness. The tank overall is looking ok although it's aquascaping masterpiece or anything. My 30 shrimp and 2 nerite snails are perfectly happy. My rabbit snails don't look happy and are not as active as they should be though as I think they are hit with the over-fertilized substrate the most. 

Is there a way out of this mess, please? 

I am EI dosing at the moment and adding CO2 using a reactor. 
-Could I stop EI dosing for a while and allow the plants to use up the excess ferts in the substrate or would the epiphytes not get enough fertilizer? 
-Would the ferts gradually dissipate over time or will the Dennerle scapers soil aqua soil retain the ferts as they are not being used because of the EI dosing? 

I really, really don't want to rescape if possible, if there is any other way to sort this you would make my year!
Cheers 
Dave

I'll post a tank shot in a minute. The Rotala and ludwigia repens were cut last week and is not that high at the moment.


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## ForestDave (19 Apr 2021)

A few tank shots.


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## ForestDave (19 Apr 2021)

Unhappy Ludwigia Repens and Pogosternon erectus.


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## ForestDave (19 Apr 2021)

Full tank shot.


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## dw1305 (19 Apr 2021)

Hi all, 


ForestDave said:


> Is there a way out of this mess, please?





ForestDave said:


> Would the ferts gradually dissipate over time


They should do, so I'd just keep on changing some water. If you have a conductivity meter? You could see how quickly the conductivity rises between water changes.

cheers Darrel


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## ForestDave (19 Apr 2021)

Thanks Darrel, that gives me hope!

The TDS rises about 10 points per day and resets to about 230-250 after a 50% w/c. Tap water is about 150 TDS. 

Thanks 
Dave.


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## Wookii (19 Apr 2021)

Your TDS rise is likely to be from the stone combined with the lower pH from CO2 injection.

I'm going to put my neck on the line, and suggest that the issues you are encountering are unrelated to the Osmocote underneath the soil, unless you can actually measure an excess of ammonia levels which I would assume is not the case as you'd see issues with your shrimp and snails.

Irrespective of the cause, the solution is likely to be the same - large daily water changes, correct level of CO2 and good CO2 distribution.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (19 Apr 2021)

ForestDave said:


> I am EI dosing at the moment and adding CO2 using a reactor
> 
> 
> ForestDave said:
> ...


Hiya mate. there shouldn't be an issue with too much ferts as such so I would look at why the fauna isn't happy which could be more likely the co2. If there is excess ammonia it should only become toxic when the PH rises above neutral. 
If you are concerned about too much ease back on the E.I dosing. Dosing at E.I levels if you are including magnesium in the mix will raise the TDS by about 10ppm per day anyway and if your plants don't need it because there's plenty already the TDS will just continue to rise. The epiphites will be fine, all the nutrients under the soil will eventually end up in the water column. The only issue you have is Osmocote isn't really intended for use in aquariums so the ratios we usually mix E.I at will differ from the Osmo. Generally speaking Osmo is usually high in ammonia and phosphate, the ammonia rapidly breaks down in to Nitrate. With good plant growth which you should get with co2 the excess will deplete quite rapidly. 
If it were me I would keep the planting dense, even throw in a few floaters to mop up the excess and maybe just dose Traces. pottasium and magnesium for a while. All substrates wear off over time, even the ADA stuff which comes loaded with nutrients wears off and you have to add more. AFAIK Tropica doesn't contain any it's just quite good at retaining some which is a good thing over the long term.


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## dw1305 (19 Apr 2021)

Hi all, 


ForestDave said:


> The TDS rises about 10 points per day and resets to about 230-250 after a 50% w/c. Tap water is about 150 TDS.


No, that sounds fine. You don't <"need many ions"> to make the conductivity rise much more than that. 


dw1305 said:


> ........ If you can get pure NaCl? You need 0.491g (491mg) L-1 NaCl to give a 1000 µS standard.


cheers Darrel


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## ForestDave (19 Apr 2021)

Wookii said:


> Your TDS rise is likely to be from the stone combined with the lower pH from CO2 injection.
> 
> I'm going to put my neck on the line, and suggest that the issues you are encountering are unrelated to the Osmocote underneath the soil, unless you can actually measure an excess of ammonia levels which I would assume is not the case as you'd see issues with your shrimp and snails.
> 
> Irrespective of the cause, the solution is likely to be the same - large daily water changes, correct level of CO2 and good CO2 distribution.


Thanks Wookii.
It could be flow. I have a full width spray bar and an FX6 filter. I felt the flow wasn't reaching behind the large rocks very well. I thought that I would rectified this by drilling a few holes underneath the spray bar at an angle so not only does the spray bar jet the water towards the front but also straight down at an angle all the way across. I now see the benefits of a good circular flow when hardscapes are involved. 
I've had plant root failures all around the tank though, so maybe it was CO2 although I'm getting a consistent 1ph drop now and the gas is fully dissolved with no bubbles so I'm hoping that piece of the puzzle is fixed.  My basic NT labs water tests  rate Nitrate/nitrite and ammonia at 0 and I'm doing 50% w/c twice a week at the moment. I'll keep on tweaking things!

BTW have you finished your muddy riverbank tank yet?


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## ForestDave (19 Apr 2021)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Hiya mate. there shouldn't be an issue with too much ferts as such so I would look at why the fauna isn't happy which could be more likely the co2. If there is excess ammonia it should only become toxic when the PH rises above neutral.
> If you are concerned about too much ease back on the E.I dosing. Dosing at E.I levels if you are including magnesium in the mix will raise the TDS by about 10ppm per day anyway and if your plants don't need it because there's plenty already the TDS will just continue to rise. The epiphites will be fine, all the nutrients under the soil will eventually end up in the water column. The only issue you have is Osmocote isn't really intended for use in aquariums so the ratios we usually mix E.I at will differ from the Osmo. Generally speaking Osmo is usually high in ammonia and phosphate, the ammonia rapidly breaks down in to Nitrate. With good plant growth which you should get with co2 the excess will deplete quite rapidly.
> If it were me I would keep the planting dense, even throw in a few floaters to mop up the excess and maybe just dose Traces. pottasium and magnesium for a while. All substrates wear off over time, even the ADA stuff which comes loaded with nutrients wears off and you have to add more. AFAIK Tropica doesn't contain any it's just quite good at retaining some which is a good thing over the long term.


Thank you. 
That sounds like it's worth a shot. A few weeks back the tank was balancing out at 180 TDS so it is slightly creeping up. I'll try just dosing traces for a while. 

The shrimp are happy and my nerites are always active. The bigger rabbit snails aren't that active though, although one of them hasn't been great for a couple of weeks since I tried to pull it off the glass and didn't have the technique weighed off. Its colour has become darker and it looks unhealthy. I also lost 4 nerites bought about a month ago which I thought was either CO2 related or cheap EBAY glutaraldehyde related. They tended to drop off the glass towards the end of the CO2 cycle and lay upside down.  I'm pretty sure I am on it with the CO2 now hopefully and I stopped with the "Aqua C" liquid carbon as it was making the shrimp sluggish and sent them into hiding. I'm hoping to not need the liquid carbon or if I find I do I'll splash out on some Excel.
Cheers!
Dave


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## sparkyweasel (19 Apr 2021)

ForestDave said:


> My basic NT labs water tests rate Nitrate/nitrite and ammonia at 0


If those tests are to be trusted, 0 ammonia suggests it's not excess ferts causing your livestock problems, but 0 nitrate could be the cause of your plant problems.


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## ForestDave (20 Apr 2021)

sparkyweasel said:


> If those tests are to be trusted, 0 ammonia suggests it's not excess ferts causing your livestock problems, but 0 nitrate could be the cause of your plant problems.


Thanks Sparkyweasle. 
I usually test just before a water change as a sanity check.  I say zero nitrates but there is usually the tiniest hint of pink which is difficult to see. I’ll check after fertiliser are added and see how that changes over the day. 

One thing that is confusing me is the d/c. When I measure the ph drop and take it down by 1 ph, this is taking about 2 hours atm. At that point the D/c is still not lime green, I presume because you need to wait another 2 hours for it to catch up. I’m turning my lights on based on the ph drop and not waiting for a lime green d/c. Does this make sense, or should I wait for the d/c too?
Cheers!


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## Wookii (20 Apr 2021)

ForestDave said:


> My basic NT labs water tests rate Nitrate



As @sparkyweasel says, that is your answer right there, assuming the test kit isn't lying to you. Assuming you are currently on a weekly water change schedule, if you are dosing EI, you should have a significant buildup of nitrate by the end of the week - part of the purpose of the large water change at the end of the week is to somewhat reset this build up.

If you are seeing such low nitrates (and nitrate test kits are notoriously unreliable) you could well be running out of other essential ferts.

You mention dosing EI, but what are you using for ferts, and how much are you dosing?



ForestDave said:


> BTW have you finished your muddy riverbank tank yet?



No not yet. Still waiting to get a few ducks in a row before attempting that - it may take a while!


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## ForestDave (20 Apr 2021)

Cheers Wookii. 
I've been dosing the basic APF EI mix, 40ml on alternate days with a rest day once a week. I am doing a w/c every 3 or 4 days and up to a couple of weeks ago, it was every 2 days. The tank was scaped on the 19th Feb although I had the plants in a bare tank for 3 or 4 weeks before that  and some were not looking that great after that. I keep meaning to borrow my daughter's PC and use the nutrient calculator as it won't format on my crappy Chrome book. What is the typical level of nitrate build-up I should look out for?

Good luck with the new scape when you get those ducks sorted!


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## Wookii (20 Apr 2021)

ForestDave said:


> Cheers Wookii.
> I've been dosing the basic APF EI mix, 40ml on alternate days with a rest day once a week. I am doing a w/c every 3 or 4 days and up to a couple of weeks ago, it was every 2 days. The tank was scaped on the 19th Feb although I had the plants in a bare tank for 3 or 4 weeks before that  and some were not looking that great after that. I keep meaning to borrow my daughter's PC and use the nutrient calculator as it won't format on my crappy Chrome book. What is the typical level of nitrate build-up I should look out for?
> 
> Good luck with the new scape when you get those ducks sorted!



OK, you may need to dose additional amounts when you make water changes, as that will be stripping a fair bit out.  I do daily 25% water changes, and have to increasing dosing amounts by around 80% to compensate. Did you buy the measuring spoons with the APFUK kit? Also, I assume you mixed in the prescribed recipe?



> 4tsp Potassium Nitrate
> 1tsp Potassium Phosphate
> 6tsp Magnesium Sulphate
> 500ml Water



I only ask, as it's easy to make a mistake, and mis-count the number of teaspoons, or pick up the wrong measuring spoon (I've done it myself, picking up the 1/2 tsp measuring spoon, rather than the 1 tsp version).


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## ForestDave (20 Apr 2021)

Wookii said:


> OK, you may need to dose additional amounts when you make water changes, as that will be stripping a fair bit out.  I do daily 25% water changes, and have to increasing dosing amounts by around 80% to compensate. Did you buy the measuring spoons with the APFUK kit? Also, I assume you mixed in the prescribed recipe?
> 
> 
> 
> I only ask, as it's easy to make a mistake, and mis-count the number of teaspoons, or pick up the wrong measuring spoon (I've done it myself, picking up the 1/2 tsp measuring spoon, rather than the 1 tsp version).


Thanks! 
Yes, I'm using the recipe included with the kit and am using a cooking teaspoon to measure it out. How did you come to the 80% figure, by checking the TDS?


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## Wookii (20 Apr 2021)

ForestDave said:


> Thanks!
> Yes, I'm using the recipe included with the kit and am using a cooking teaspoon to measure it out. How did you come to the 80% figure, by checking the TDS?



No, I did it all on a spreadsheet. I plotted the nutrient dosing under standard alternate day dosing and 50% weekly water change, and assumed no plant uptake to keep it simple, and plotted all the way until the nutrient level ready the same steady state accumulation figure at the end of each week - which takes around 60 days.

Then I plotted the same but with daily dosing, and daily water changes, and used Goal Seek to determine the correct daily dosing amount to hit the same steady state accumulation figure. So in essence I've just tried to convert standard EI alternate day dosing and once a week water change practice to daily dosing and daily water changes.

There are probably holes in the theory, and the way I've calculated it, but it seems to work okay, and in all honesty I could probably just have doubled the dosing and called it quits.


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## dw1305 (20 Apr 2021)

Hi all, 


ForestDave said:


> My basic NT labs water tests rate Nitrate/nitrite and ammonia at 0





sparkyweasel said:


> but 0 nitrate could be the cause of your plant problems.


It is likely to be issues with the <"nitrate (NO3) test">, rather than there actually being no nitrate. That is why I prefer <"watch the plants">.

cheers Darrel


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## ForestDave (20 Apr 2021)

Wookii said:


> No, I did it all on a spreadsheet. I plotted the nutrient dosing under standard alternate day dosing and 50% weekly water change, and assumed no plant uptake to keep it simple, and plotted all the way until the nutrient level ready the same steady state accumulation figure at the end of each week - which takes around 60 days.
> 
> Then I plotted the same but with daily dosing, and daily water changes, and used Goal Seek to determine the correct daily dosing amount to hit the same steady state accumulation figure. So in essence I've just tried to convert standard EI alternate day dosing and once a week water change practice to daily dosing and daily water changes.
> 
> There are probably holes in the theory, and the way I've calculated it, but it seems to work okay, and in all honesty I could probably just have doubled the dosing and called it quits.


Thanks. 
I'll up it by 50% for the next week and see how the plants respond and I'll look into the spreadsheet system when I have a bit of time.
Cheers 
Dave


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## AverageWhiteBloke (20 Apr 2021)

Hiya Mate, E.I is designed to be non limiting but is worked out over 3x3 day splits, I believe that is so the PO4 doesn't react with the Iron in the traces. Either way the "non limiting" part of it is focused around for N and K (the main things plants consume) being Max 3ppm per day. So if you'll excuse the assumptions for a minute if you were changing the water every few days and at times every two days using tap water which may or may not have nitrate in so we'll assume it hasn't your dose would only have raised the TDS by 3ppm. You tend to find most chemical test kits aren't going to be able to differentiate the small changes in these values, at best I would say you could maybe see a difference in colour if there was a 10ppm change. Also if you're changing water that often and using de-chlorinator I believe these also affect nitrate tests so I wouldn't be given the test too much credence.

I would suggest that you could infer from the test results that the Osmo isn't causing much of a problem if at all. You're right in saying that the PH test would be more accurate than the DC as the PH drop would be closer to real time. Maybe these Glute products might be bothering the fauna, back in the day when I used to DIY them I noticed my corys would sit lifeless at the bottom of the tank just after dosing and only become more active later on in the evening although that could have been oxygen related as the plants were growing through the lighting period.

My personal opinion of your tank based on the pictures is that it's not that densely planted and the plants look like they're just starting to settle in to their new environment. It certainly doesn't look like the type of tank that would be consuming large amounts of ferts just yet. I think you might have put your finger on it when you said


ForestDave said:


> The tank was scaped on the 19th Feb although I had the plants in a bare tank for 3 or 4 weeks before that and some were not looking that great after that.


Nothing happens fast in the world of planted tanks especially when the plants originally were in poor health. It may take a couple of months before before they flourish again. I would just keep doing what you are doing and keep it consistent, ignore the osmo for now. I think the plants just need to settle, repair and fatten back up.


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## ForestDave (20 Apr 2021)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Hiya Mate, E.I is designed to be non limiting but is worked out over 3x3 day splits, I believe that is so the PO4 doesn't react with the Iron in the traces. Either way the "non limiting" part of it is focused around for N and K (the main things plants consume) being Max 3ppm per day. So if you'll excuse the assumptions for a minute if you were changing the water every few days and at times every two days using tap water which may or may not have nitrate in so we'll assume it hasn't your dose would only have raised the TDS by 3ppm. You tend to find most chemical test kits aren't going to be able to differentiate the small changes in these values, at best I would say you could maybe see a difference in colour if there was a 10ppm change. Also if you're changing water that often and using de-chlorinator I believe these also affect nitrate tests so I wouldn't be given the test too much credence.
> 
> I would suggest that you could infer from the test results that the Osmo isn't causing much of a problem if at all. You're right in saying that the PH test would be more accurate than the DC as the PH drop would be closer to real time. Maybe these Glute products might be bothering the fauna, back in the day when I used to DIY them I noticed my corys would sit lifeless at the bottom of the tank just after dosing and only become more active later on in the evening although that could have been oxygen related as the plants were growing through the lighting period.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the in-depth reply! I really appreciate all the advice.

My tank definitely isn’t as grown in as I would have liked, which has not been helped by me binning some plants that weren’t looking healthy. I think you are right, as some of my plants are coming round after a long period of looking on the verge of death. I just got obsessed with the osmo being the cause as quite a few plants would not put down roots or the tiny roots they had would turn brown and rot. Things do seem on the turn now though. For what it's worth my local has 16.59 mg/l of nitrate in it. 

I will keep trying to improve the flow/CO2 and will be a bit more patient. I am toying with putting another filter intake in so there is one in each corner to balance it out. 

If you were knocking up your own glute mixture you obviously know your stuff. What is your view on it, please? Some people seem to think Excel is a bit gentler to the fauna? Do you know if anyone has done a side by side comparison with that and a cheaper non big branded glute? I stopped using the Aqua C ebay stuff about a week ago and think there has been an increase in stag horn and long green hair algae. I am tempted to use some again would definitely get some Excel if it is better for the critters.

Thanks again!!
Dave


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## AverageWhiteBloke (21 Apr 2021)

ForestDave said:


> If you were knocking up your own glute mixture you obviously know your stuff.


Not really mate, UKAPS went through a phase a few years back where, as they always do, worked out the ingredients of Excel which was Glute based. From there it was just a case of buying the glute and watering it down until it was at the same ratio as was in the liquid carbon products. I bought myself a ltr of it at the time but I believe these days it is harder to get hold of. It was used for sterilising equipment but I think they don't use it much any more because of the side effects it can cause. 
Since then I have found out that excel is a slightly different chemical makeup, I think it is "polymerised" whatever that means! My opinions on it, I'm not that sure if I'm honest which is why I don't really use it that much or plan a tank around its use. I hear different things from different people and all these people know what they are talking about.
As an algaecide to spot treat or bail you out of an algae issue I would still use it if needed, the only time I do use it is on WC change day at the recommended excel dose and usually just on a particular area where I can see algae just starting to get a hold. Most times that's just on a bit of in tank equipment because I can't be bothered getting it out to give it a scrub 

I don't use co2 injection these days because I haven't the time for the Faffing and maintenance that goes hand in glove with these high energy systems. If I had the time I would use gas instead of liquid carbon products although I've no doubt if I did I'd be reaching for the glute again at some point to bail me out. I would keep using it in your case then maybe gradually wean the tank back off it, every little helps. I would say 90% of the issues I see in this forum are caused by tired plants through either them being grown out of water or through transport being put in an immature tank and the kitchen sink threw at them with lighting, co2 and ferts. Once the plants grow in a bit and get healthy the tank tends to look after itself. All they want is enough of everything.


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## ForestDave (21 Apr 2021)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Not really mate, UKAPS went through a phase a few years back where, as they always do, worked out the ingredients of Excel which was Glute based. From there it was just a case of buying the glute and watering it down until it was at the same ratio as was in the liquid carbon products. I bought myself a ltr of it at the time but I believe these days it is harder to get hold of. It was used for sterilising equipment but I think they don't use it much any more because of the side effects it can cause.
> Since then I have found out that excel is a slightly different chemical makeup, I think it is "polymerised" whatever that means! My opinions on it, I'm not that sure if I'm honest which is why I don't really use it that much or plan a tank around its use. I hear different things from different people and all these people know what they are talking about.
> As an algaecide to spot treat or bail you out of an algae issue I would still use it if needed, the only time I do use it is on WC change day at the recommended excel dose and usually just on a particular area where I can see algae just starting to get a hold. Most times that's just on a bit of in tank equipment because I can't be bothered getting it out to give it a scrub
> 
> I don't use co2 injection these days because I haven't the time for the Faffing and maintenance that goes hand in glove with these high energy systems. If I had the time I would use gas instead of liquid carbon products although I've no doubt if I did I'd be reaching for the glute again at some point to bail me out. I would keep using it in your case then maybe gradually wean the tank back off it, every little helps. I would say 90% of the issues I see in this forum are caused by tired plants through either them being grown out of water or through transport being put in an immature tank and the kitchen sink threw at them with lighting, co2 and ferts. Once the plants grow in a bit and get healthy the tank tends to look after itself. All they want is enough of everything.


Thanks!!
I'll give the problem plants a squirt with a syringe or a brush on water change day. Hopefully, that should sort out the few plants that have the algae issue.
It certainly does soak up your time running a high tech tank, it's like a full time job some days! 🤪
Thanks again for all your advice.


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