# Potentially Sick Kuhli Loach?



## shangman (7 Sep 2020)

Hi All,

Back again for some more advice. I bought 8 Kuhli loaches about 2 weeks ago for my 60L tank. The tank has sand + fine gravel. One of them has a mark that I'm a bit worried about. This is my first tank, 12 weeks in and I don't know that much aboout diseases and treatment.

I noticed 1 week in (last week), that one of the loaches has a slightly different patch on him than the other ones - a paler/whiter area on his back. I only realised it wasn't a normal marking because the others don't have it, but it's bang on the middle of his back so it looks like it could be part of him. Luckily, he's the most bold of the kuhli loaches and is often out in the front so I've taken some photos. He eats normally and acts normally (compared to the other loaches in the tank and videos I've seen online), he eats a lot (probably the most), he does a lot of digging in the sand to eat blackworms, and in general does lots of wriggling through plants, investigating and swimming. I've spent the past week wondering if it's a problem, as I realised none of the other loaches have this mark. I did worry for a few hours last week that he had ich, but then I realised it was just a bit of sand as he had been digging. I thought I'd wait and observe to see if it got worse, as I thought maybe it could be a scratch or something from when he was caught at the shop (the bloke took a while and seemed to find it difficult to catch them).

Tonight it looked to me like it may have spread slightly on one side. Annoyingly, as soon as I took my camera out he swapped sides so I've just got photos of one side and top. I'm worried it could be columnaris, but I thought that spreads quicker (he's been this way for a week) - though I just read that it often starts on the back so now I'm rather worried. None of the other fish have any marks, or have been acting weirdly. I have the kuhlis, as well as 6 otos and some amano and cherry shrimp, I'm not sure if/how I should treat the tank as I know they're very sensitive to medication. I do a 50% water change weekly.

He's my most bold loach, and I'd really like to make sure he's ok. Please help!


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## shangman (7 Sep 2020)

Apologies for the double post, I managed to get another photo. As you can see there's a tiny pale 'nipple' at the top of him, and it looks like an outline of white that's spread more by his yellow dot on his back. It hasn't spread much, less than a single mm, but to me it seems a bit more pronounced than before. Also forgot to mention, he's about 6cm long.

I have a quarantine tank I could set that up if I can managed to catch him, which I think would be really hard. I'm not sure though as he's been this way for a week or so, if it would be better to treat the whole tank incase there's something evil lurking. But agian, I have no idea what it is or what to treat the tank with, so will wait for a reply.


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## alto (7 Sep 2020)

There are several strains of Columnaris (I’ve included various links elsewhere, and discussed in some detail so trying to stay with the short version here ) ranging from very rapid onset and death to chronic (better survival rates) to latent (high mortality)
Some fish species are very susceptible, some are quite resistant - in an aquarium situation - most fish species will develop infection in disease trials

It’s possible that your kuhli loach has just damaged his skin and you’re seeing some localized infection

Unless you have access to a fish vet, there isn’t much point in trying any of the readily available aquarium grade fish medications that promise to “treat” “cure” Columnaris

Lots of clean water, low fish density, softer water, slightly acidic water, bare tank, optimized oxygen levels (Columnaris begins in the gill tissue and spread out from there, often compromising heart function next) have shown some impact on reducing mortality rates
(Certainly better than any of those “Cures Columnaris” hobby remedies ...  most contain a dye compound that has some anti-bacterial activity, hence the claim that it will combat Columnaris   .....  )

(Note that drugs which show promise during in vitro trials, often prove completely ineffective in fish trials, some compounds which worked very well for Researcher A, show zero impact for Researcher B .... it’s just that sort of bug  )


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## alto (8 Sep 2020)

Rather than trying to stress-catch this fish, try a bottle “fish trap” -  set it up when you’re able to monitor as fish will stress when they realize they are trapped, then eventually “calm”

(I’ve never tried this with kuhli loaches as they’re too eel-like for me )

At this stage, I’d just do daily water changes of 25-50%, ensure there good flow and oxygenation, reduce temperature to 21*C (lower temperature is always recommended with any bacterial infections)

https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/pangio-semicincta/


Wait at least a month after the last visible symptom before introducing new fish
Note that as kuhli loaches grow to ~10cm and are quite thick bodied, there’s not a lot of bioload remaining on a 60l tank, maybe add a shoal of ember tetras or other small fish ... or perhaps a single Betta (but your shrimp may not agree!)


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## alto (8 Sep 2020)

I’d be somewhat concerned that kuhli loaches will dig through the soil ( possibly releasing ammonia) so would add a Seachem Ammonia Alert 

Also be careful of using any root tab fertilizers with these fish


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## sparkyweasel (8 Sep 2020)

alto said:


> At this stage, I’d just do daily water changes of 25-50%, ensure there good flow and oxygenation, reduce temperature to 21*C (lower temperature is always recommended with any bacterial infections)


That's what I would do. I would also add some catappa leaves; they seem to help with healing minor wounds and even some minor infections. Unlike medications they won't cause any harm or stress. I would only use medication if it spreads, and a definite diagnosis becomes possible.


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## shangman (8 Sep 2020)

Great, thank you for the advice! I'll do the daily water changes. I think I'll have to do 25% as only have so much rainwater (have access to 4 butts, but it'll probably go quite quickly if it doesn't rain much in the next few weeks). Luckily, the rain water is soft and acid, so hopefully that helps. I'll also reduce the temp and get some catappa leaves, I do already add in dried green walnut leaves which all the fish and shrimp love to eat + hide in. 

I don't use root fertilisers, I just have soil in the base, with a sand cap, and some smooth tiny gravel at the back. I also have MTS and blackworms in the sand to help with keeping the sand turned over and healthy. The kuhlis do love to dig about, but they're quite small and I don't think managed to get more than 0.5cm down. I'll order this Ammonia Alert too.

My tank is almost fully stocked, I was going to get a single or pair of dwarf gouramis at some point and that's it. From my rainwater I get mosquito larvae, and even though I finely sieve the water, I think eggs and tiny larvae get through. Me and my boyfriend have been biten rather more than usual this summer, so I thought a gourami would work well! I'm also aiming for a bigger tank next year, where I can move some of the inhabitants into that. The kuhlis are small now, but I can see they'll need more swimming space soon. The tank is very heavily planted with lots of hiding spots for them.

Do you think more live food instead of mostly kuhli pellets would help with recovery? I have frozen bloodworms, frozen daphnia and I think the dried versions of each, which I currently feed once a week the day before waterchange. I have live blackworms in the tank which they root about with (but seem a bit blahblahblahblah at catching tbh), I could add some more for them to feast if that would promote their health.


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## alto (9 Sep 2020)

shangman said:


> I was going to get a single or pair of dwarf gouramis at some point and that's it


I’d suggest a single dwarf gourami, they can be quite territorial

A PFK article worth reading
https://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/features/lets-hear-it-for-the-dwarf-gourami/

Unfortunately the “dwarf gourami wife beater” article doesn’t seem to be available (though perhaps with subscription) - it was quite funny despite the title, and was excellent advice, despite the apparent “togetherness” displayed by dwarf gourami in the shop tanks, they can become quite nasty with each other when it’s just 2 or 3 in a 60l tank
(I’d suggest at least an Aquascaper 900 for a group, and even then, careful selection/management  might be needed)

Though if you’re able to source some wild type colouring honey gourami, you could add 1M 2F (in your 60l)
https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/trichogaster-chuna/

Mark Evans often used these in his tanks (definitely read through all his journals!)
@Sammy Islam has some honey gourami types in his EA900 https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/channelling-my-inner-filipe-getting-there.59565/
(fish photos page 3)


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## alto (9 Sep 2020)

shangman said:


> Do you think more live food instead of mostly kuhli pellets would help with recovery? I have frozen bloodworms, frozen daphnia and I think the dried versions of each, which I currently feed once a week the day before waterchange. I have live blackworms in the tank which they root about with (but seem a bit blahblahblahblah at catching tbh), I could add some more for them to feast if that would promote their health.


I’m always a fan of “natural” foods over processed foods
I wouldn’t add more blackworms if the fish are showing little interest
You may be able to collect more foods from your rain butts
(and perhaps ask @dw1305 for some live worm cultures )

I prefer frozen daphnia, bloodworms, brine shrimp etc over the freeze dried - try soaking the dried versions before feeding to rehydrate them
(over consumption of dried foods has been linked with impaction, digestive issues in fish so feed moderately; overfeeding of frozen foods is less of an issue)


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## PARAGUAY (9 Sep 2020)

You could try Melafix and Pimafix    natural products often used when adding new fish to a aquarium and  7 day dose and w/change if as it seems likely the khaki accidentally got a wound. Careful not to overfeed


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## alto (9 Sep 2020)

Melafix and Pimafix may be “natural products” but they are far from typical compounds that fish would encounter in  their natural environments 

Melafix and Pimafix should not be used with any labyrinth fish 

Some loach species have shown severe sensitivity to the combined dosing of Melafix/Pimafix - read through LOL for reports 
(note that kuhli loaches are among the species that have been reported to display adverse reactions) 

Unfortunately the manufacturers of Melafix and Pimafix have refused to post any warnings on their products 

Various studies have shown that while  Melafix/Pimafix may reduce overall bacteria levels in the water column, in vitro studies showed no antibacterial activity against known fish pathogens


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## dw1305 (9 Sep 2020)

Hi all, 





alto said:


> You may be able to collect more foods from your rain butts (and perhaps ask @dw1305 for some live worm cultures )


I should have some spare bits and bobs, if you want to go that way.





alto said:


> I prefer frozen daphnia, bloodworms, brine shrimp etc over the freeze dried


I think frozen are much more likely to retain high levels of vitamins etc. 





shangman said:


> I have live blackworms in the tank which they root about with (but seem a bit blahblahblahblah at catching tbh),


I'm really surprised they don't go wild for them, it maybe the substrate is coarse enough for the Blackworms to hide in and avoid being dug up easily.  If you add some leaves the worms may migrate up into them and be easier for the fish to catch.

cheers Darrel


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## shangman (9 Sep 2020)

alto said:


> I’d suggest a single dwarf gourami, they can be quite territorial
> 
> A PFK article worth reading
> https://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/features/lets-hear-it-for-the-dwarf-gourami/
> ...



Aha, thank you for that, I do want to avoid agressiveness in the tank! They do seem very peaceful all together, but I suppose they balance out when there's lots of them. I'll call up my fish shop and see if they can source some wild types, I've seen the normal yellow kind in their shop though, which are quite charming.

Do you know of any other fish that would work for a 60L, eat mosquitos and have a good personality? I was given the tank before I went to any fish shops, and now I've fallen in love with the dwarf cichlids as they seem so charming IRL, but from what I can tell the german & bolivian rams & kribs would need a bigger tank, is that right? The internet is ful of all sorts of advice that I can tell I can't really trust, though here I always get great advice. I have seen on here someone had a pair of rams in a 60L, but as I have the other fish I'm not sure it would work. Perhaps they all like the bottom too much, I think that's true for the apistos. My motivation for a larger 100cm+ tank is to get a small group of bolivians tbh.

I care more about personality and funny faces over colouration. I think I will try the honey gourami and see what they're like as a little harem. I'm currently slowly setting up a new semi-nano planted tank with my dad for a single fabulous betta to live in as well, otherwise I'd be tempted to get one of them for this tank.



alto said:


> I’m always a fan of “natural” foods over processed foods
> I wouldn’t add more blackworms if the fish are showing little interest
> You may be able to collect more foods from your rain butts
> (and perhaps ask @dw1305 for some live worm cultures )
> ...



They are definitely interested in the blackworms, though they don't always seem successful in catching them! You've reminded me though, in our brownest water allotment rainbutt I do remember seeing a lot of little white ostrapods, I'll try and get a nice jar of those. The advantage of the constant waterchanges is that I can feed things like the frozen bloodworms, as I can just clean up any leftovers, so I'll definitely feed more of them.  
I'm very intrigued by these live worm cultures... is it lots of different types of worms? I'll have to PM them this weekend and find out. It v much appeals to me to have lots of weird tiny things adding to the biodiversity of the tank.

Yes the freezedried is annoying for it's floatability, I'll give a few a soak, and only feed once every week or two if they're a bit dodgy... it's kuhli McDonalds 

I did a massive waterchange yesterday and started to lower the temp, and today everything is out and about, and my dodgy kuhli is eating a lot and hanging out with his friends. To me it looks like it might have gone down a bit, but time will tell! It's very reassuring that whenever something seems wrong I can ask here, I'm very grateful for your advice! As a new fishkeeper there are so many nuances, and I can't really tell if something need to be worried about or not


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## shangman (9 Sep 2020)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> I should have some spare bits and bobs, if you want to go that way.
> 
> I think frozen are much more likely to retain high levels of vitamins etc.
> ...


Oh yes please! I've got all sorts of tiny wild stuff in my tank now that's slowly appeared (though no planaria yet), it makes it feel more natural somehow, I'm convinced they're doing something useful. Randomly have some of those tiny limpets appear on the glass last week and was chuffed. 

I'll def focus on the frozen rather than dried. It does make sense, bright red looks more nutricious than the bloated white things they become when freezedried.

Oh goodness, the worms and leaves! Before I had any fish I put in a big dried green walnut leaf, which was decimated by the worms in 1 day, and they sat under there in a big waving group like an evil Lovecraftian scene. The kuhlis definitely eat them, and they dig around a lot trying to catch them, but they do seem a bit stupid and will try to catch them 1cm away from a whole load of worms with half their bodies waving in the air. Perhaps they're just eating slightly buried ones though. I think I have less of them than I did before, but they haven't wrecked the population like I thought they would. I've got a lot of leaves in there currently, so will make sure they're closer to the surface for the worms. TBH leaves don't last long in the tank, with the shrimp and otos they get skeletonised super quickly.


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## PARAGUAY (9 Sep 2020)

@alto .Not advocating Melafix or Pimafix are wonder cures but as there is no definite diagnosis and being natural products thought it better than some more invasive meds at this stage. I have used this melafix when adding(rarely) new fish and Tom the discus breeder l know has it in the fish house. Used it quite a while ago in a tank with Clown Loaches with no issues. Take your point though good to have the information l will do a bit of research and contact API who l have found previously not bad at being open. Maybe not Shangman should use with khulis and possibly Ghouramis


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## dw1305 (9 Sep 2020)

Hi all, 





shangman said:


> eat mosquitos and have a good personality?


Any Tetra or Raspbora, mosquito larvae are caviar for nearly all fish.

I had Black Neon Tetra, as a dither for _Apistogramma cacatuoides,_ for a number of years and they are great mosquito larvae eaters and good "citizens".

cheers Darrel


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## sparkyweasel (9 Sep 2020)

shangman said:


> Do you know of any other fish that would work


Have a look at Sparkling Gouramis; they are tiny and full of personality. You have room for a small group so you will be able to see and hear their courtship and breeding.


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## hypnogogia (9 Sep 2020)

sparkyweasel said:


> hear their courtship


Do they recite romantic poetry to each other?


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## sparkyweasel (10 Sep 2020)

Yes, in their own way. 
Not as loud as Croaking Gouramis, but you can hear it. I haven't been able to translate it into human/English yet.


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## alto (10 Sep 2020)

sparkyweasel said:


> I haven't been able to translate it into human/English yet.


That may be because they are speaking a Tai-Kadai dialect


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## alto (10 Sep 2020)

PARAGUAY said:


> Not advocating Melafix or Pimafix are wonder cures but as there is no definite diagnosis and being natural products thought it better than some more invasive meds at this stage.


Not to be contrary (though that’s exactly what I am doing  ) but this is really where increased water changes, optimized oxygen levels, and improved tank maintenance and (perhaps) feeding can be the most impactful actions a fishkeeper can take

(note this is not just my opinion but one substantiated by the fine folks at places such as https://aquatic.vetmed.ufl.edu/education/programs/care-conservation-of-aquatic-animals-certificate/
This Aquatic Veterinary college has always offered a great collection of articles for hobbyists and aquaculture industry)

I should mention that I first tried that wonderfully acclaimed *Melafix/Pimafix* combination when my Altum angels began to display minor skin lesions and less than perfect fins
They began to show stress within a few minutes, and increasingly adverse reactions - several large water changes later the fish were decidedly unhappy (but no longer looking as if they were about to expire)
I did add carbon BUT as these are oil based medications, it’s not particularly effective
I continued to do 80% water changes every 12 h
After a few days, they finally returned to the initial state at which I’d determined I needed to _do_ _something_  despite no clear indications of what was amiss ... it turned out to be an incredibly nasty internal parasite
The skin lesions are where single maturing parasites have set up home, in addition to the hundreds of immature parasites infesting gill tissue and gut - as the mature parasite “digs in” and prepares to (disperse eggs??? mate???) the skin lesions become pronounced and nodular, and then one day, there is a white thread-like-worm  extending from the fish and drifting/wiggling in the current ... and then there are more (twining and twisting together)
Except they aren’t actually exposed to water column mediations (hopeful toxins) as there is a very fine film “bubble” protecting the “home” and extraction is difficult as there is a barb-like attachment deep in the muscle tissue
And these are not a few mm’s in length but cm’s (the longest I measured was 4-5cm, though most were 2-3cm,  only they remain tightly coiled in at least part of their length)
In the beginning I had this notion that I might just need to remove some external parasites -  until I’d performed a necropsy that revealed the masses inside (I’d hoped most of the parasites would be localized to the skin nodules, and that I’d find immature stages there ...)
After several months of levamisole treatment, medicated food and water column, I had a survival rate of ~40%
But it was a year from onset before these fish really looked/acted healthy again.
It was a few years later that I saw some (poor resolution, blurred) photos on Pandora’s Box that showed the same unidentified parasite

Apologies to @shangman for the off topic wander


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## MirandaB (10 Sep 2020)

This is the report for Melafix which ironically was paid for by API and concluded it was virtually useless.https://www.researchgate.net/public...icacy_for_MELAFIXR_melaleuca_cajuputi_extract


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## shangman (12 Sep 2020)

Hi All,

Thank you for all the advice, sorry I didn't respond before, work + a water change a day tired me out!

After the week of water changes, temp down and more leaves put in (walnut and oak as I had to order the catappa, just shoved some in order), everything is looking much better. I noticed after 2 days that his injury was going down, and I think it's gone now. Kind of hard to tell, as his most defining feature was that, but I think it's the right one, and the other 6 I've seen don't have it either. I'm going keep up the water changes for another week (then slowly go down), and keep a look out in case it was a parasite that will jump on something else now or breed or something like that. Also, my kuhlis all came out a lot more this week, I think maybe because of the lower temp (before it was 25), + water changes? They sat in the front more together and it was great, so will maybe do 2 changes a week instead of 1 a week and keep it cooler.



alto said:


> Apologies to @shangman for the off topic wander



It's all good, it's a really interesting discussion! I actually bought some melafix when I started the tank as I was told it was good for calming fish and helping with infections as an easy thing to try when you don't know what to do. I didn't use it, just came to ask here though, and glad I did! 



sparkyweasel said:


> Have a look at Sparkling Gouramis; they are tiny and full of personality. You have room for a small group so you will be able to see and hear their courtship and breeding.



Ooh, I actually think they might be perfect! Thanks


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