# First time breeding fish advice for success



## Nathanh2150 (21 Feb 2021)

This will be my first time breeding some Apistogramma Cacatuoides DOUBLE RED  _Male + Female_ 

I have a 17ltr aquarium 
With 
Coconut shell x1
Substrate tropica soil 
Plants 
Almond leaves x2 
Heater got the tempture around 27•c 
Led light unit 
thinking do I need a breeding trap to store the baby’s in I have been looking at the Fluval Breeding Box. 

Any help would be much appreciated.


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## Conort2 (21 Feb 2021)

Unfortunately a 17litre is way too small for a pair of apistogramma. If the female isn’t ready to breed the male can be pretty hard on her and in a 17l she isn’t going to be able to get away. I’d recommend a 60l as the smallest sized aquarium for a pair of apistogramma. Could you not push for the 60version of the aquarium instead? 

I’d then fill the tank full of plants and leaves, you need to have a lot of structure to give the fish places to hide. 

There will be no need for a breeding trap, male and female will look after the fry for some time.

Cheers

Conor


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## Kalum (21 Feb 2021)

Where are you keeping the male and female after they breed?

Are you separating them?

They can show a lot of aggression (especially the female) so 17L is not enough even for experienced breeders, with that setup you would need to have a plan to deal with them longer term


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## Nathanh2150 (21 Feb 2021)

I don’t see an issue with a 17ltr aquarium as a breeding tank as there plenty of room plus there not the biggest of fish I have seen many breeder’s house fish in smaller set ups. I have made sure that if there is any issues with female getting to harassed by the male to move her into my larger tank set up then to add her back into the breeding tank once all is settled with the male I have brought them as a breeding pair so they should be paired off and have been advised they have been showing spawning  activities.


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## mort (21 Feb 2021)

Love the enthusiam but even with breeding pairs you can see aggression if the female isn't receptive to the male. I would read some of the journals on apistogramma.com because even experienced breeder with much larger tanks do experience mortalities. If you were to move any of the fish I would move the male. Dropping a new female that's not ready to breed in a tiny tank with a male isn't the easiest thing to get away with. At the very least try and make sure that the female has an area that it can escape to that the male can't fit in. With apistogramma this tends to be a cave that you partially cover the hole with some sand, the female can enter but the male can't. 

This chap has bred fish for over 50 years and it's shows what he thinks you really need.


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## Hufsa (21 Feb 2021)

Hey @Nathanh2150 , this may sound a bit direct and I dont mean to offend you by writing this.
But I cant help but notice you've made a lot of threads on the forum asking for help,
and many knowledgeable members have chimed in to help you make good choices and to avoid mistakes.
Instead it feels a bit like you are asking for advice and then doing whatever you want to do instead, which is discouraging for the people who are taking their time to write up posts trying to help you.
I really think you could do better at taking to heart the advice you are given, and listening to it.
Its a good thing to consider all the options and not following all advice blindly, but its not a good thing to be too headstrong either.

I write this with the best of intentions and I hope you have a successful first spawn with your apistos.
As the other posters above have written I think you need to get them a much bigger setup.


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## dw1305 (21 Feb 2021)

Hi all, 
They are a <"good fish to try">, they aren't difficult and you can rehome the juvenile fish without too many problems. 


Nathanh2150 said:


> I have a 17ltr aquarium


I'm not being funny, but you need a much bigger tank.


Nathanh2150 said:


> I don’t see an issue with a 17ltr aquarium as a breeding tank


You don't have to listen to any of the posters on this thread, but  I can tell you unequivocally that it isn't anything like big enough and the advice @Conort2 and @mort  would be my advice as well.


Nathanh2150 said:


> I have brought them as a breeding pair so they should be paired off





Nathanh2150 said:


> thinking do I need a breeding trap to store the baby’s in I have been looking at the Fluval Breeding Box.


_Apistogramma cacatuoides_ isn't exactly  pair forming, they are harem breeders, the best results come from leaving the fry in with the female until well after they are free-swimming.

cheers Darrel


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## Conort2 (21 Feb 2021)

I only say these things as I’ve done the exact same thing in the past when I couldn’t find decent advice so freely and seen the consequences. I’d rather people learn from my mistakes than go kill the fish themselves. Apistogramma may be small but they can be vicious when it comes to breeing, they’re cichlids not platys. They’ll herd a whole community aquarium to one corner of a 36inch tank when spawning.

Stick some endler guppy’s in there if you want to breed fish in a 17litre tank.


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## Sammy Islam (21 Feb 2021)

I'm not going to repeat what others have said, as the advice is clear. In reality the fish need to be happy with their environment before they will consider spawning. The fish might be small but this doesn't mean you can put them in a small tanks, different fish have different requirements and temperaments regardless of their size, take the pea puffer as an example.

But at the end of the day 17L is no way near enough volume, i wouldn't even put a betta fish in there. Especially as some tanks don't actually hold the amount of water they claim to, plus once you have added soil and plants etc then there will be less than 17L.


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## shangman (21 Feb 2021)

Hello again,

<You may have seen my thread here where I talk about my apistos breeding>, which has been really wonderful. My tank is a 60L, and it is the minimum size you should consider, I say that with my current experience. Yes, some professional breeders use smaller tanks, but they are also changing all the water every day, feeding 6x a day, and have many extra tanks ready in case anything goes wrong. Why would you try to do it like a professional breeder? It will not be as nice an experience for you or the fish, but if you do it in a bigger tank it will be really enjoyable and beautiful, one of the highlights is when the fry are young, and the motherfish will travel with them around the tank in a cloud around her to feed - you need the size to experience this fascinating behaviour. You need the space partly for the parents, who must be able to get away from eachother (my female still killed my male the day before the babies came out from their cave, I didn't realise they had eggs even then), and for the babies - they aren't tiny fry forever and they have to get to a good size before you can give them to the LFS, spawns can be from 10 to 150 fry, they need a bigger tank so the water quality doesn't decline extremely quickly. My 30 fry are currently 1 - 3cm, and they use all of the tank all the time, I wouldn't want them in anything smaller. Even my 60l is pushing it, I do a lot more waterchanges to compensate.

When I first got my apistogramma, it was because my dad bought the pair for his 45l tank, which he read online was big enough. They were in there for 2 days, and it was clear the tank was too small for them to swim about as they wanted to, so he gave them to me. Give them the big tank and they will reward you with beautiful colouring and fascinating behaviour, why bother to keep and breed them if you aren't making them happy? I have just bought a tank 3x the size of my 60l so I can keep the apistos in there, I think that will be even more fascinating and make them even happier, apistogramma are clearly very intelligent fish and they need to be respected by you - they are relying on your to treat them well.

You seem to have a thing about putting fish in tanks which are too small - first you wanted discus in a 90cm, now you want apistos in a 17l. The apistos are simply too big, too intelligent and too active for this. Put them in the 90cm, if they start to look interested in breeding, buy a 60l. The 90cm is a perfect size for the apistogramma to really thrive. Stop thinking that just because a fish is small it can survive in a tiny tank, all fish need a good amount of space to thrive, even in large tanks they're in smaller spaces than they would be in the wild. Be generous with your fish, they deserve it!!


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## Nathanh2150 (28 Feb 2021)

Hi all
I have a breeding pair of Apistogramma Cacatuoides DOUBLE RED  _Male + Female_

Got home from work done a check up on the fish could not find the female anywhere she wasn’t in the coconut shell but I found her in the middle of the almond leaves she popped out and to my surprise to find that the female has laid a-load of eggs around 20-25 that I could see without disturbing the female as she’s doing her thing wile the male is keeping guard around her they are in there own tank with no other fish just them on there own what’s the next steps I should do as tomorrow I was going to do a water change should I now leave doing that ?  Fist time in my aquarium hobby that I have had any fish that have spawned..


all the help would be much appreciated 🙃🙂


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## Nathanh2150 (28 Feb 2021)

Got home from work done a check up on the fish could not find the female anywhere she wasn’t in the coconut shell but I found her in the middle of the almond leaves she popped out and to my surprise to find that the female has laid a-load of eggs around 20-25 that I could see without disturbing the female as she’s doing her thing wile the male is keeping guard around her they are in there own tank with no other fish just them on there own what’s the next steps I should do as tomorrow I was going to do a water change should I now leave doing that ? Fist time in my aquarium hobby that I have had any fish that have spawned..


all the help would be much appreciated 🙃🙂


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## Samala (28 Feb 2021)

If they are still in the 17l, watch the pair very very closely. Your female is likely to aggressively guard her clutch and will usually push the male outside of her perceived territory at this point. In a tank this size that would likely put him into a corner or at best into his own half/end. 

 The female's protective instincts are usually heightened after fry are free swimming (typically 10-14 days after eggs are laid, depending on water temperature). Should you find the male spending time near the surface (as one photo somewhat indicates) I would move him to another tank. 

You can continue normal water changes, just ensure water is similar temperature, hardness; the usual good husbandry routine.


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## Nathanh2150 (28 Feb 2021)

Ok shall keep an eye on the both I did knotice the female bashing the male with her tail but apart from that I haven’t seen any other aggression as when I took that photo I had just popped some food in the tank to see where the female was.. if anything I’m happy moving the male into my large tank for the time being. Then once the fry are big enough gonna move them into a breeding tray and move the male back in. I’m just keeping an eye on them as this is there first batch and will do a small water change tomorrow. I have ordered some brine shrimp to feed the fry and some micro worms also anything elc I should think off ??


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## Conort2 (28 Feb 2021)

I’d move the male back into your larger aquarium and keep the fry with the female. Don’t put them in a breeding trap, these are no good for cichlid fry. Allow the mother to look after the fry and only put the pair back together in this aquarium once you have moved the fry on.


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## Nathanh2150 (28 Feb 2021)

Ok thankyou I would personally like to keep the fry as this is my first batch 🙃


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## sparkyweasel (28 Feb 2021)

Congrats 
Have you got your fry food cultures going? Or brine shrimp hatchery set up and ready to go? Depending on the temperature and other factors the eggs will hatch in about two days, and the fry will start swimming after another two or three days. Until then they feed from a sac of yolk attached to their throats. Once they are free-swimming they need to eat. Lots of small feeds is best but you have to do what you can manage.
I would leave the water change. Two fish in a planted tank shouldn't be a problem for water quality, - unless you have been having issues.
Some people will do water changes on their usual schedule, working well away from the nest, carefully matching the new water to the tank water, and adding it very gently.
Watch out for any agression between the pair. If it's bad you might need to remove the male.


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## shangman (28 Feb 2021)

Yes I agree, remove the male now. Keep the female with the babies until they start to swim away from her/ignore her rather than stay by her side, which is usually a good month or more, though it can vary if they are inexperienced parents. Don't try to breed them too much, enjoy this first lot and treat them the best you can with a lot of live food several times as day. When they are big enough to swim about alone and are big enough not to be eaten, put them in your big tank, they will benefit from the water quality of a bigger tank, they're very sweet the easy they interact.


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## Nathanh2150 (28 Feb 2021)

Thankyou I have just taken him out she is in between the two almond leaves I shall leave her to it now and shall do a water change tomorrow I currently have her tank set on 27c is this ok as I read it was ?? Cannot wait to have the time to watch them grow and I have plenty of food for them


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## Nathanh2150 (1 Mar 2021)

Hi Thankyou for your message,
I have removed the male to my bigger tank
And have left the female with the eggs 
I have brine shrimp for the baby’s once they are free swimming would I need to remove the female or just keep her in ? Also I have the temperature on 27c read that was the right temperature.. 
I haven’t touched the almond leaves as didn’t want to disturb the female as this is there first batch. I have been looking into a breeding tray to pop the eggs into and having it hand on the side of the tank but not sure atm also adding a different filter to a air pump filter. I have been told doing water changes would be fine as long as it’s at the same temperature what would u say would be best


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## shangman (1 Mar 2021)

I think 27 is ok, research the best temp for your special for 50/50 sex ratio, for mine it was 26. Do water changes, but just take from the top don't worry about mulm so you don't disturb them for the first week or two.


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## Nathanh2150 (1 Mar 2021)

Yh I read 26/27 Is a good temperature to have them on and will be doing daily 20% water changes to keep everything running smoothly 🙃 mum is busy attending to the eggs she’s not come out at all from the almond leaves 🍁 so shall give her some food tomorrow before the water changes ..


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## alto (1 Mar 2021)

Nathanh2150 said:


> I have been looking into a breeding tray to pop the eggs into


Mum will take much better care of the eggs/wigglers/fry than any artificial method

(and yes, leave her with the kids until she begins to show signs of chasing them off - usually only once they are good sized juveniles)

Young fish will often “accidentally” eat their kids at some point, so it may take several tries for the parents to get it right (they will also often consume the spawn if stressed)

Fish that have been parent raised themselves, tend to require rather fewer spawning attempts to get it right


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## shangman (1 Mar 2021)

My female hid in her seedpod almost the whole time she had eggs, I actually didn't realise she had them until she brought the babies out. She will be very busy looking after them, if you can give her a bit of live food like daphnia or blackworms I'm sure that will help, it won't affect the water quality as quickly, is more nutritious for her and she can eat it over the day. Looking after your motherfish will help her look after the babies


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## Nathanh2150 (1 Mar 2021)

I have just popped in some food for her will be adding some bloodworm and daphnia later today so she has some food tonight 🙂 when I looked this morning it looks like she has got rid of the bad eggs and kept the good eggs she’s doing a good job so far for her first batch 🙂


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