# Re-scaping my 200l tank



## hudsonpd (19 Nov 2012)

Right, having scattered random questions over the forum, I have decided I'm going to re-scape my current tank! In another forum I asked about emptying it and starting again, but I've decided that all I really need to do is re-consider the plant stocks and where I put them. So I'm going to up root some current ones and re-plant old ones. Overall, I'll stock a higher level of plants than before.

for background, my tank is a 1m long by 55cm deep and about 40cm wide. Its about 18 months old now and I've been through several (all of the usual) issues  So now I'm going to (hopefully) put it all into practice.

Several months ago I swapped the filter for an over-sized Fluval FX5 and over this last weekend I have made my first attempt at a spray bar, which works ok but not 100% perfect yet!

I have rather a lot of lighting - 4 Grobeams, which I calculated with some help of a great American website but it turns out to be very bright! So a couple of months ago I invested in a TMC 8-way controller and now have the lights on at about 40%! 

Co2 injection is inline UP atomiser, which I added about a year ago, when I swapped to the Fluval FX5. 

Even with the spray bar, I expect a couple of parts of the tank still won't get great flow when I've re-planted because of the layout and planting mass. However, I'm hoping that the mid ground plants will block out un-seemly stems and the tops will still get plenty of flow.

I'll post the current pics tonight and also try and upload my new planting plan to hopefully get some ideas about planting arrangements. I'm planning to shopping for new plants at the wkd!

Paul


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## hudsonpd (20 Nov 2012)

OK, here is my planned layout. This is the plan as seen from the top. The hardscape is pretty much there already. The brown in the middle is the bogwood. The grey are stones and the two other shapes are caves/flowerpots for Apistos.

What do you think? Does the plant composition look good? Any suggestions for improvements or different plants?

I'm unsure whether the flow will work at the back left because of the hardscape and bogwood affecting flow. Remember it s spray bar across the back wall.


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## Dan Crawford (21 Nov 2012)

Hi Paul, well that's a lot of plants and a lot of different species! You will struggle to make a cohesive layout with all those different textures and leaf shapes, i'm guilty of doing the same thing myself. The desire to grow "everything" is one that must be mastered. For instance, growing Glosso on one side then HC on the other will look rather odd, the same for Eleocharis and Lileaopsis. I think you could half the number of species and have a much better layout. Try and stick to fairly similar leaf shapes, NOT Ludwigia repens next to Pogostemon erectus etc....

I hope this helps....


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## hudsonpd (21 Nov 2012)

Hi Dan,

Thanks for your advice. I think I am struggling to master that element - especially for foreground plants!

I am also struggling to understand how to balance 'grouping plants with similar leaf structures' vs 'contrasts of colours/textures'. Your comment about Repens for example - I was trying to creating a contrast between colour and texture there. Is it better to group plants by leaf for example and then select 2/3 specific areas for contrasts?

Thanks
Paul


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## foxfish (21 Nov 2012)

How have you fitted the 16mm UP to the FX5 25mm pipe work?


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## hudsonpd (21 Nov 2012)

Hi Foxfish, I fitted the UP atomiser by using using a DIY piping arrangement with a 'y' splitter, splitting the flow across two pipes - one with the 16/22 pipe and the UP in that side. The other with 25/32 pipe. Then a 'y' splitter brings them back together and into the Fluval pipe. 

And now I have added my own Acrylic spray bar to that!


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## jack-rythm (22 Nov 2012)

I honestly think we should create our own styles, I understand what dan is saying, yes u need to have an understanding about what works where but I also believe the point of Aquascaping is to not follow rules, were only going to all end up with the same thing. I think the fact is trail and error is of the best success. 

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


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## hudsonpd (25 Nov 2012)

So this weekend, I go around to buying some new plants and re-scaping a little. I took a shot beforehand of the tank - warts and all! - and have posted it below. The tank has looked better at various points over the previous 18 months, but this is it immediately before I re-did it. You will notice how large the Anubias had become and the remnants of various BBA outbreaks I have had on its leaves!

The Hygrophilia at the back has also got a little stringy and unkempt.


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## hudsonpd (25 Nov 2012)

So I took out the Anubias and the Java Fern - and how surprised I was to see how large each had become! In taking it out I wrecked the layout as the wood came out too! The roots were so well engrained on the wood they both took some removing!

I removed various other plants and moved the hair grass from the front right. By the time I had removed and moved stuff I had made quite a mess and had begun to wish I'd just started over!

Anyway, I did a 50% water change too and bought new plants from a local show. After about 4 hours I'd got it back looking ship-shape, but a bit different. So the shot below is how it looks now. The plants at the back left haven't been planted in yet, they are still in their pots and weights. I'm just trying to work out the best layout for them. Its obvious they need to grow quite a bit and I also need quite a few more to fill in at the back left too.

Down at the front I've planted 4 pots of HC - fingers crossed they get chance to take root before the shrimps and Corys have them out! I've followed the advice on here to cut the rockwool up and make 9 little plugs from each pot. I've also planted two new pots of Hair Grass. So, from the plan, I've simplified a little following Dan's advice and not used Glosso and the Lilaeopsis Brasiliensis.

At the back I think (not sure exactly as some weren't labelled) I've got a Rotala Wallichii log leaf, rotala macrandra and maybe Postagram and also two other varieties of Hygrophilia, I think.


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## Palm Tree (26 Nov 2012)

Looks nice so far, will look great when grown in more. The good side of having lots of species is that you can find out which ones work the best and remove the ones that dont. What have you done with the big anubias and java fern ?


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## hudsonpd (26 Nov 2012)

Thanks for your comments. I was going to throw the big anubias and fern away as i dont know any people locally who'd want them.


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## hudsonpd (29 Nov 2012)

A fee days in and no major algae bloom as id feared - yet!

This might be a silly question but is there any need to plant all of the stem plants at the back left? I mean, ive left them like that for now so that i can re arrange to find the best balance, but could i leave them permanently like that? Then i can remove and change them as i want further down the line? Anyone else done that?


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## oddn0ise (29 Nov 2012)

Watch out the algae will come. It took about 3-4 weeks to appear but now I have it and I'm keeping a close eye on it, as well as using the ADA Phyton Git product which keeps things it in shape.

I'd leave your plants as they are and let them settle in, and then see how they develop. things are looking good so far.

It must be a packed hood with 4 Growbeams in there!


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## Palm Tree (30 Nov 2012)

If you keep everything balanced and use a low level of light then you can easily get away without having algae. Floating plants work great for this as they lower lighting levels but then again you are using growbeams so you can just reduce the intensity. Regarding the stem plants you could put them wherever you want now or just let them grow for a bit and plant the trimmings. I try to fill all the empty spaces with stem plants as I like dense jungle style tanks and it allows more room for growth but its totally up to you. Also if your really worried about algae then get some fast growing plants to fill the gaps then get sell them after.
I have PM'ed you about the anubias btw.


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## hudsonpd (2 Dec 2012)

Thanks everyone for their replies.

On reading my last post again, I think I confused you with my question! I was trying to ask (not very clearly!) whether anyone has ever left their stem plants at the back with the weights on and in their pots? I left them like this so that I could easily move them around to try different things and to make the display easier and now wonder whether I can just leave them like this for the future? Will the lead become a problem in the water?

The plants all seem to be growing nicely although about half of the HC has come up (as always!) but fingers crossed for the remaining bits! I'm not as hopeful as I was because I just read PFK and George was saying that pea gravel isn't good to grow it in! I've got Tetra plant substrate underneath the gravel and when I planted the HC I've put some soil based complete around them too to try and keep them in place, so I'm hoping they will both be enough to give the roots some relief!


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## hudsonpd (28 Dec 2012)

OK, so its been a few weeks now and no sign of algae but I think I'm going to need some help getting some of these plants to grow!

No algae bloom as expected and the hygrophilia plants and the Bacopa are going well but the other news ones I added seem to show new sprouts at the top but then after a couple of weeks the lower leaves all 'melt' away and also the bottoms seem to turn black, rot and then float to the top! I thought it was just one, but the red plant in the photo earlier has just started doing the same. Some of the Hyrophilia at the back that has grown also shows some signs of spots on the leaves.

The grobeams were at just 30% light using the the controller, recently I upped this to 40%. Still dosing ferts every day and the flow is soooo much better with the back spray bar. The CO2 is also looking good, showing lime green at the bottom back. I upped it slightly recently.

btw all of the HC either melted or just floated out! so thats all 4 pots wasted!

Beginning to get frustrated again! Not from algae this time but from lack of plant growth.

Will try to get some pics again soon.


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## ceg4048 (29 Dec 2012)

Hello,



hudsonpd said:


> The grobeams were at just 30% light using the the controller, recently I upped this to 40%


 This contributes to plants melting. You should reduce this and add more CO2. You can also supplement the CO2 with any of the liquid carbon products.

Cheers,


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## Antipofish (29 Dec 2012)

ceg4048 said:


> This contributes to plants melting. You should reduce this and add more CO2. You can also supplement the CO2 with any of the liquid carbon products.


 
Clive can you elaborate on the theory and practice of supplementing with liquid carbon... the pros, cons, caveats (certain plants not liking it for example) ?  I have been aware that some people use both methods but have, up till now, been concerned about overdosing (or even knowing how to dose). Cheers.


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## ceg4048 (30 Dec 2012)

Well there's very little theory involved. Adding more CO2 increases plant growth rates and plant health. Since, for our purposes, inside the plant tissue, liquid carbon => CO2, then adding liquid carbon at the same time as adding gaseous CO2 means that there is more available CO2 for the plant. The two compounds do not compete with each other, i.e adding liquid carbon does not prevent the plants from using the gas, and vice-versa.

So, it can easily be (and happens quite often) that due to the sensitivity of the fish or shrimp in that particular tank, as well as due to other factors, such as poor flow/distribution, too much light etc., the hobbyist finds that the gas injection rate is at a maximum permissible level with respect to toxicity, yet the tank still suffers CO2 related algae. Supplementing liquid carbon simply adds more CO2 while avoiding crossing of the gas toxicity threshold.

Of course, there are three main limitations:
1. The liquid only delivers a fraction of the amount of CO2 that the gas delivers.
2. Liquid carbon has toxicity issues of it's own.
3. Liquid Carbon is much more expensive than gas.

So liquid carbon is no panacea, but it is simply a tool that raises the available CO2 levels, while having some algaecidal properties. These products can be used at whatever non-toxic levels desired. I don't have an exhaustive list of plants that react negatively, the most reported being Riccia, Elodea and Vallis. However, toxicity is based on_ concentration level_, not just the presence of gluteraldehyde. So that's why some people will report that their Vallis, dies while others will report that Vallis thrives with the addition of liquid carbon. Just about all carpet plants, mosses, ferns, crypts, swords and most stems do fine.

A starting dose, assuming none of the low tolerance species are in the tank can be a daily dose at the beginning of the photoperiod of the suggestion on the bottle, but, depending on the fish/shrimp in the tank this can be exceeded, or it may need to be dosed at a lower level. It's also important to note that this should be a DAILY dosing, otherwise this can sometimes equate to poor CO2 stability, which can cause other problems.

There are quite a few people dosing liquid carbon only so it would be better to search for those threads or search using the name of the plant/fish with "carbon", Excel" and so forth to see what others experience.

Cheers,


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## hudsonpd (4 Jan 2013)

Thanks Clive

ive just changed the lighting back down to 30% but I put it at 40% because I thought the red plant and others were high light loving and would need more light to bring out the red and encourage their growth? Am i wrong?

or will the 30% light with plenty of co2 be enough?

i was also worried about just increasing co2 might harm the fish as the drop checker is on lime green already! Admittedly I'm not sure it's quite right when the lights go on but it's hard to tell. The co2 does start more than 2 hours before.

There is still no real algae to speak of but the plants aren't growing well. They certainly don't look like they did on the photo earlier! Except that is for the 'easier' crypts and hygrophilia.

i also think my filter needs cleaning out though as I'm getting what can only be described as 'micro dirt' gathering on the leaves - doesn't look like algae more like dirt.....but I may be wrong. I will clean this wkd and drop the light and see how it fares next week
P


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## ceg4048 (4 Jan 2013)

Hi mate,
			It's entirely possible that the dirt you describe is actually one of the 10,000 species of diatomic algae. Also, it's entirely possible that the reason for the diatom bloom is the light increase from 30% to 40%.

When you plants are exhibiting poor growth performance lighting should always be at the very bottom of the list of possible causes. At the very top of the list should always be CO2, then fertilizer, followed by flow/distribution.

Additionally, one of the many reasons that plants turn red is that hobbyists pummel them with too much light and the plant produces pigments in response to the bombardment to reflect the light away from the leaf in order to protect it from radiation poisoning. Up to a certain point the effect, for us, is one of aesthetics as we like to see the interesting colors, but it is not always a good thing. Therefore, red plants do not "like" lots of light. If the plant is red by design then it normally needs more CO2 than green plants. You really need to step away from the whole light loving Klingon megawatt mentality because this causes nothing but grief.

Didn't you just have a CO2 problem which caused melting? And then you increased the light, which causes a CO2 demand increase? Not good mate. CO2 grows plants. There is absolutely no such thing as "light loving" plants. Only Klingons believe that.

Do more water changes and when you do, ensure that they are as large as possible. Using your fingers, preen and clean the leaves, rubbing them to dislodge the slimy film coating the leaves. The mass of plant tissue that you have in the tank is much greater than you had before, both above the substrate and BELOW. All those roots and leaves now demand more CO2 than they did before. You can reduce the plant mass above by trimming, and you can uproot the crypts and swords, cut the roots back to within a few inches and replant to control the plant mass below the substrate. This will help to reduce the CO2 demand. Definitely clean the filter.

Fix your CO2 as described above using a combination of injection rate increase and liquid carbon if possible. When CO2 is fixed you will see a performance boost.

Cheers,


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## hudsonpd (6 Jan 2013)

Thanks Clive. I think you are right - as always, good balanced advice that brings us back on the right track!

I've cleaned the filter and dropped the light back to 30% and increased the CO2 a notch. Will review over the next week.

Thanks
Paul


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## hudsonpd (17 Jan 2013)

OK, so no algae bloom and all appears ok. But an update on plant growth reveals I'm still not quite 'there'!

So some plants are doing well - the Sagittaria, the Hygrophilia, the Bacopa, the Amazon swords and the Crypts. But others, such as the Hair Grass, the HC (which all came out and died), the Didiplis Diandra, the Ludwiga Repens and the Rotala Macandra (I think that's what it was) and the Rotala Wallichii (again, I think) have all struggled. 

The other update is that some of the plants at the back right (behind bog wood) and including the lower Hygrophilia has spots and holes on leaves. Now, is this due to CO2 or Ferts deficiency? I am assuming the former. And I am also assuming it is because of where they are and the various rocks and wood and plants affecting flow to the back. Not overly worried because they grew in front then surely, this is to be expected?

The drop checker appears right colour still and ferts still following the James' Planted tank formula.

So, do I just keep increasing the CO2? Do I need to reduce light still further (still at 30% of the 4 grobeams)? Or do I need to remove all decorations of rock and wood to ensure perfect flow? (!)

I seem to be able to grow some plants well and not others. I appear to have now got some stability to the parameters (I admit I had some problems, documented above, only a couple of weeks ago). So I seem to have cracked the algae issues I had several months ago and before the re-scape and clear up. But I still don't be able to grow all plants. Even hair grass! is this because the flow is too much? (I had read somewhere that this plant has a wide tolerance of temps and should grow fast but doesn't like high flow rates over it?)

Will try and get more pics over the wkd.


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## ceg4048 (17 Jan 2013)

Yeah, the plants that you are having trouble with are all poor CO2 feeders. Without a PAR reading I cannot say with certainty that you are over the top with light, but it wouldn't hurt to drop the intensity a little more, while at the same time increasing the CO2.

Doesn't Growbeam produce a PAR chart plotted in X-Y-Z coordinates? There was a similar case a year ago, where the OP had throttled back to 20% and was still have identical problems. He lost his nerve and decided it couldn't be a light/CO2 problem because the tank looked dim. He disappeared for months chasing every other parameter. In the end he realized he needed to add more CO2. It's entirely possible to have PAR be so high that it requires toxic levels of CO2 to stay afloat. It would be nice if you could rehouse the fish, then you could really go to town with the gas.

Cheers,


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## hudsonpd (20 Jan 2013)

Thanks for the reply Clive.
I'd never considered that having CO2 drop checker at lime green might not be enough - everything I'd read seemed to suggest you get it to lime green and - hey presto! It works. But now you've pointed it out, it makes perfect sense - the more light there is the more CO2 they need and if the plants don't take it up effectively (as you suggest) then I still may not have enough CO2 going in. Unfortunately I don't have any where to house that number of fish, so for now I have dropped the light back to 25% and will monitor drop checker more carefully to see if there is any room for more CO2. But I will focus on the light for now.

I'm beginning to wish I'd stuck with conventional lighting when I started - but the Grobeams seemed so good. It turns out they must be too good! (if I have to set them to just 25%!). And with conventional lighting I may not have so many difficulties. Anyway, at least some plants are growing well and I don't have any major algae problems at the moment!

I need to sort out a FE CO2 solution really as I'm now changing the 500g bottle approx every 20-25 days whereas before it was 30 days. I have managed to find a cheap(ish) provider of the bottles but with a FE solution it would be so much better. Haven't had the time yet and I'm still not sure I can fit it in the cabinet when its all fitted up. Another minor mistake at the beginning - when I ordered the tank I asked them to make the cabinet 3-5 cm lower than they normally do as I thought it would look better. But now I struggle with my huge Fluval FX5 filter when I need to get it out to clean and I can't fit a FE under it !


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## ceg4048 (20 Jan 2013)

Well, just as many people or more have difficulty using conventional lighting, and their problems are worse because they have no control of intensity, so I really think you're ahead of the game.



hudsonpd said:


> everything I'd read seemed to suggest you get it to lime green and - hey presto! It works.


Yeah, I know. This oversimplification is promulgated throughout The Matrix. The root cause of this is that people are mesmerized by test kits as if the kits were some kind of omniscient device, sent back throught time by an advanced Vulcan civilization. Unfortunately, the DC can only corroborate you findings. It cannot determine them. This mind control programming is precisely why I'm a militant anti-test kit activist.

A 500g cylinder is just a snack for a 200L mouth...get something bigger, and quick mate.

Cheers,


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## Tomfish (21 Jan 2013)

How are you getting your Co2 into the tank, diffuser, reactor? I've got a 250l and cegs right 500g is not enough, also don't aim for green or yellow, aim for an increment below poisoning your fish. Dial it up day by day in small increments and when you notice unhappy fish dial it back to yesterdays level. I suspect that may have you refilling canisters with annoying regularity though!


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## hudsonpd (23 Jan 2013)

Hi Tomfish,
I am injecting CO2 through an inline diffuser - the UP Atomiser - and then through a DIY spray bar across the back of the tank. Seems to work well, but you are right, as I've begun to increase CO2 further, the 500g is not enough. I need to find a solution to this fast! But with work and everything else I don't seem to get it sorted!


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## hudsonpd (10 Feb 2013)

Does anybody know why my Dwarf Hair grass doesn't grow well in my main 200l tank? Is it because I have quick a high/powerful flow over it? I inject CO2 and I thought it was supposed to be fairly easy and quick to grow?
It looks ok for a while and then goes brown from the tip down, especially after I trim it, which I was doing because I'd read that encouraged it to spread faster and form a carpet. It grows OK in my nano tank, although that has less light, no CO2 injection and lower flow. It doesn't exactly grow fast but it certainly looks better than the other!

Is it temperature? My nano is 24 degrees while my 200l is about 26 degrees.

Thanks!


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## hudsonpd (23 Feb 2013)

Can anyone help with my remaining frustrations?!

1) dwarf hair grass doesn't seem to grow very well? Why could this be?
2) co2 - I get through 500g bottle a fortnight - is this normal for a 200l tank?!
3) HC - cant get this to even stay down, let alone grow! This latest attempt I planted 4 pots in full I cut off the bottom of the rock wool leaving just 1 cm around the roots and then buried each one but within 2 weeks they've nearly all gone! Is this because they don't grow or the Corey's and shrimps unpick them? 
4) general slow growth! Now my light is down at 20% and co2 seems to be so high, I would have hoped for higher growth rates!

One fins, question I hope someone can help with - why do people say increasing water changes can help? And maintenance - is this just to keep algae down or does it help growth rates?

Thanks!


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## ceg4048 (23 Feb 2013)

Hi,
	A 500g bottle of CO2 is not a serious option for a tank of that size. So you need to upgrade. If 500g lasts 2 weeks then 1 kg will possibly last a month, 2 kg possibly 5-6 weeks. Did I not mention this in post #26?

You hairgrass needs more time, more CO2 and possibly better flow. This is a slow plant. I'm not sure where you heard that it's quick. The HC suffers form the same problem of poor CO2 and flow. If you have substrate diggers in the tank then it's going to be difficult. If you want higher growth rates then you will have to increase the intensity and assume the risk. If you start getting problems then you'll need to back off.

Increasing water changes removes organic waste from the tank and keeps it clean. Plants and fish prefer clean water as biological toxins are removed from the tank. It's the same reason that you are healthier because your toilet has a flush function to remove organic waste, for example.

Cheers,


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## hudsonpd (24 Feb 2013)

As always Ceg, thank you!

You did mention the co2, I know, it was just in another post somebody had said their's lasted ages in a 180l and thought I must have a leak!

Anyway, thanks for your help. Especially on the hair grass - cant remember where I heard that!


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## ian_m (26 Feb 2013)

hudsonpd said:


> You did mention the co2, I know, it was just in another post somebody had said their's lasted ages in a 180l and thought I must have a leak!


It was me I have a Vision 180.

My first 2Kg FE lasted 28th Feb 2012 to 9th Nov 2012 (8 months), current one has 750gr left (in 4 months).

I use these to weigh my FE cylinder Buy Salter Air Super Slim Stainless Steel Kitchen Scale at Argos.co.uk - Your Online Shop for Kitchen scales..  Mine comes in at 5.8Kg with regulator on, dropping to 3.8Kg when empty. I also write the date and weight on side of FE so I know roughly how much is left and when likely to run out


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## hudsonpd (3 May 2013)

I'm sooooo frustrated with this plant growing that I am so close to just giving it all up!
3 weeks ago I decided to buy a load more plants because I thought all of the advice I had received would mean I could finally crack this. No luck, I'm afraid - £30 worth of plants and now they are just about dead!

What did I do.....
Well I firstly dropper the light down to 15% and every day I notched up the CO2. One day I nearly gassed all of my fish (I did lose a couple of shrimp) so I notched it down. I am getting through 600g of CO2 every week and a half now and the fish were not looking good. But neither were the plants! I continue to have success with the Hygrophilia and the Amazon and the crypts. But the hair grass - still useless. The Bacopa was doing well but that has all but failed. And even my Giant Vallis is doing worse. So going backwards.

Last week I dropped the light down to just 13%. But still not signs of joy. The plants either show stunted growth or the new ones turn black on the stalks and float up and the leaves gradually disentegrate or fall off. Result= all £30 gone. Again!

I dose ferts. I change 50% water every week. Granted my pipes are not the cleanest.

I have been trying this for 2 years now and I am spending a fortune in plants and CO2! I am so close to either just selling the lot or swapping to lower maintenance Apisto set up.

I so so wish I had not bought LED lights now because they just seem to be impossible to get right. Unless there is some other mystery that I have not cracked - or unless ALL of my problems can be solely put down to not cleaning pipe work. Can that really be the 1 thing that causes SUCH failure? Surely, more likely light/CO2 balance? But if it is the latter, if I keep reducing the light it will dark soon! I don't really understand it as my nano with no CO2 doesn't do as bad. But that hasn't gotn LED either......

My only advice to everyone else is AVOID LED lights!!! Seriously not worth the hassle and money! Sorry TMC! At the beginning I thought they were great, but not any more!

Rant over.

Paul


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## tim (3 May 2013)

Hi mate, sounds like your having a real rough time, sorry to say not cleaning your pipes will cause a drop in flow IME I now clean mine weekly, I've also found cleaning the filter head impellor chamber etc improves flow drastically. Also IMO one waterchange a week sometimes isn't enough I now do two a week on my 90cm sometimes 3 if I can fit them in. Hope this helps.


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## hudsonpd (3 May 2013)

Hi Tim,

Many thanks for taking the time to reply. All advice and help is gratefully accepted at the moment. I don't think flow is my issue (even with the pipes) - since I upgraded the filter to the Fluval FX5 and built a spray bar the fish have been living in a near-washing machine cycle! I admit the back plants still may not get as much as the front (which are blown A LOT) but they do all move. Water changes - good point. I guess what I am trying to work out is - can this kind of experience (such failure of new plants dying consistently) be put down to water clarity? Or is it still a light/CO2 balance? (which I am really struggling to understand too given the amount of CO2 being pumped in and the much reduced light levels). Maybe I won't know unless I get a PAR meter from somewhere......


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## tim (3 May 2013)

I've often wondered about adding new plants as in a new setup they require time to adapt I have to admit since upping my waterchanges they don't seem to suffer the transition as they used to. Does sound like your flow is strong enough. Maybe worth buying a few plants from members they won't go through the emmersed to submersed transition and may fare a little better ?


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## hudsonpd (3 May 2013)

Interesting what you say about the impact of increasing your water changes helping new plants......maybe it is my water quality having a detrimental affect.


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## hudsonpd (3 May 2013)

Tim - btw on your 90cm tank how deep is it? And what light are you using? And how much CO2 are you getting through?


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## tim (3 May 2013)

Hi mate 45 cm deep 2 39w t5s bit too close to the water for my liking 2 kg co2 about 5or 6 weeks still algae niggles and bloody hard work I need to suspend the light further from the water really.


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## ceg4048 (3 May 2013)

Hudson,
		  Sorry that you're still having difficulties with this. Does the tank look anything like the photo in post #9? Also can you remind us of the dosing?

Also, it seems like you were doing OK with the 30% setting of those lights, assuming they are at the same height as they were before. from re-reading those posts it looks like there were a couple of plants that didn't do well and mostly that was carpet plants. With high enough CO2 to be fatal there should not have been that problem. So we have to look at distribution again.

Can you track the movement of the water and see that it's flowing down the glass? Are the holes pointed horizontally? Can you take a series of pH readings before and throughout the photoperiod so we can see how the gas is dissolving? If you can take the water sample from the bottom near the substrate that might help.

Cheers,


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## hudsonpd (3 May 2013)

Why do you think you need to suspend the light further away from the water? How do you think that is affecting things?

Glad you said it was bloody hard work too! What is your litres in there - about 180l?


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## hudsonpd (3 May 2013)

Clive,
Many thanks for your continued interest and help. The basic layout of the tank is the same - I adjusted the bog wood as I figured that was blocking the flow to the back and also sending it off in strange directions. So I changed it to have more of neutral affect.
The lights are the same height - I did think the Bacopa and Giant Vallis were doing better under stronger light and also that everything else was growing faster too. But I dropped it down to 20% before putting in the new plants and then again to 15% after the CO2 near-death experience (I figured I needed to get more CO2 impact and I couldn't increase it any further, I had would have drop the light even further). The carpet plants definately don't do well (the HC went again in 2 wks, even after I left it in the pot so that the shrimps and and re-potting wouldn't upset it). But the flow down the front of the glass and at the front is quite brutal so it definately gets down.

I will try to get some more pics and PH readings over the wkd. How could I get a water sample from the bottom?


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## tim (4 May 2013)

hudsonpd said:


> Why do you think you need to suspend the light further away from the water? How do you think that is affecting things?
> 
> Glad you said it was bloody hard work too! What is your litres in there - about 180l?


 hi mate, suspending the light higher should lower the intensity, yep its around 180 ltrs i probably change 100 ltrs of water 2-3 times a week at the moment.


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## ceg4048 (4 May 2013)

hudsonpd said:


> I will try to get some more pics and PH readings over the wkd. How could I get a water sample from the bottom?


Hi mate,
	 If you're using a pipette or eyedropper then squeeze the bellows and only release when the tip is at the bottom. Or, if using a vial to collect the sample just cover the mouth and release when you reach the bottom then cover again and withdraw. A sample every hour is a good way to see what's happening.

Also have you tried supplementing with Excel or the like?

Cheers,


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## hudsonpd (4 May 2013)

Hi mate,
OK, I got a first reading for PH - apologies if I post quite a lot while I do this! But first reading is about 7.0 The lights have just come on (12) but dradually ramp up over 2 hours. So not really bright yet. I will take another reading in a couple of hours when they are on full. Current photoperiod is about 7 hours in total (precisely, it comes on at 12 ramps up over 2 hours then is on max for 5 hours and dims back down over 2 hours).

Re: EI dosing; I am followng the liquid solutions method outlined here on James' Planted tank James' Planted Tank - Estimative Index Explained - in total I am doding 25ml Macro three times a week and 10ml Micro three times a week. Never dose together anymore.

I haven't tried adding any supplement for CO2. I do have some of the EasyCarbo which I use for my nano.

I will check PH later on and update. Plus try to get some pics either tonight or tomorrow morning.

Thanks,
Paul


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## hudsonpd (4 May 2013)

OK, missed a few hours being out but next reading for PH taken at 16:30 (4 hours into photoperiod) and its about 6.7-6.5


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## hudsonpd (4 May 2013)

Quick photo - not good quality - but shows the slight change in layout of bogwood to aid flow (sorry couldn't get it to embed):

UpdateofTankMay_zps12847bf8.jpg Photo by hudsonpd1 | Photobucket

And a short video here - again not good quality - but trying to show the flow of CO2 down the front of the tank, over the now dead pot of HC!

TankFlowMay_zps91b0e897.mp4 Video by hudsonpd1 | Photobucket


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## hudsonpd (4 May 2013)

Looking back myself at the previous photos, even the older plants I have (which always grew) are now doing worse than when I started the re-scape. The Bacopa, Giant Vallis have both died back. Which leads me to believe the light needs to go up and I need to improve water quality again, which has dropped back I'm sure. But even then, when the older plants were growing well, the new plants I added always died off.

There are a few new shoots appearing on the few bits left on the latest batch of new plants, so maybe they just need more time to adjust.

I don't know, it just seems a hell of a fight to get not much growth, because even before, all the new plants I added died.


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## hudsonpd (4 May 2013)

At 18:30, the PH was the same as the last reading between 6.7-6.5

I took all readings from the same places - two readings each time (every time they were exactly the same) - one from the bottom, left and the back and one from the bottom towards the back in the middle of the tank, near where the DC is currently located.


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## hudsonpd (4 May 2013)

Final piece of information I've not yet posted is that my CO2 switches on at 09:30, approximately 2.5 hours before the lights start and about 3.5 hours before the lights reach any level of intensity


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## hudsonpd (5 May 2013)

No more PH readings yet as I've just done my weekly water change so the CO2 and lights have all been put back 2 hours.

In the meantime, I have upped the lights back to 25%.

Here is a pic of what was left of the Ludwiga, just in case that helps anything!

deadplants_zpsffce09c3.jpg Photo by hudsonpd1 | Photobucket


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## hudsonpd (5 May 2013)

Just going to write down from memory what happened over the last 2 weeks to get to these dead plants.

I bought the plants 3 weeks ago today. The first week, the lights were on 17% and I increased CO2 a bit. All looked ok.

In the 2nd week I dropped the light down to 15% and gradually increased the CO2. On the Friday night (2 weeks in and 1 week ago) I had my 'near fatal' experience of CO2 noticing very odd behaviour from all fish when I got in from work. I quickly took out 2 buckets of water and let the spraybar create lots of surface movement. For the last week, I reduced gas back down and reduced light further to about 13%.

The last week the plants continued to fail and disintegrate. In particular the Ludwiga is all gone but for 1 stem.

A couple of the other plants still have stems and have some new shoots. The Alternanthera has a couple of useful stems left.

I have now upped the lights back to 25% to see if the Bacopa, at least, recovers.


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## ceg4048 (5 May 2013)

Well, it doesn't look like your CO2 diffusion is being effective. If it take 4 hours to drop the pH from 7 to 6.5-6.8 then that means something is really wrong. Flow looks good from the video so it I reckon the timing of the CO2 and the injection rate is an issue. You should try supplementing 2X or 3X the daily bottle suggested Excel dosing in the morning and see how that goes. Also, try a higher injection rate closer to lights on and shut the gas off earlier.

Cheers,


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## hudsonpd (5 May 2013)

Thanks mate. It does just feel like the CO2 is doing nothing with the amount being pumped in.
Any ideas how I could go about cleaning the UP atomiser, maybe that's an issue with the diffusion.
I will also try increasing the injection rate as you say and shutting it off earlier.


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## sciencefiction (6 May 2013)

I had to run a tank for a while with very little light(0.3W/G T8 bulb) until my custom made LEDs arrived.
For that period of time, even one of my floating plants died(literally melted and fell apart) and another one just about made it. And don't see how this was related to CO2, considering it gets its CO2 from air. And same as you, the stem plants faired worst of all, I lost most of them for that period of time, the ones that survived, are the ones that I left floating at the surface after the bottom of the stems melted and they got loose.
I know Ceg won't agree, and I may as well be wrong, but there's a possiblity you do need a bit more light for certain plants, especially that you can actually supplement injected CO2. But this of course would involve changing the entire ferts/CO2 amount too.

And I am sure Ceg may have a better explanation/or objection, but isn't there a scenario where excessive flow like yours on the video may prevent the plants to properly absorb CO2 and nutritients because it just doesn't give them enough time to take it. I know for sure I had an issue with BBA in a high flow area, from a too strong powerhead blowing straight at them. It was causing mechanical damage to the plants too so I had to change that.
I think the most important is the pattern of the flow, so it produces constant/equal flow in all areas of the tank without contradicting itself, rather than having a washing machine for a tank. Seeing where you placed the pot of carpet plants, I wouldn't be surprised if it just went into the filter after the initial melting/adjustment to the tank, hence the strong flow giving it no chance. Have you tried planting some in areas of lower flow(if there are any judging by the video  )


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## ceg4048 (6 May 2013)

hudsonpd said:


> Thanks mate. It does just feel like the CO2 is doing nothing with the amount being pumped in.
> Any ideas how I could go about cleaning the UP atomiser, maybe that's an issue with the diffusion.
> I will also try increasing the injection rate as you say and shutting it off earlier.


You can clean the diffuser by filling it with bleach and letting it sit for 5 minutes or so. Then rinse thoroughly.




sciencefiction said:


> I know for sure I had an issue with BBA in a high flow area, from a too strong powerhead blowing straight at them. It was causing mechanical damage to the plants too so I had to change that.


Yes there is an upper limit to the efficacy of flow. If it causes mechanical damage then that is clearly too much, but the flow looks good in the video, and as the plant mass increases this flow will be reduced, so it is better to have a washing machine. The pH readings in the tank clearly indicate that there is a fault with CO2. Using a low bubble rate for a long time does not serve the plants. The target is usually to drop the pH by 1 unit compared to night time values. One only has to target the first 4 or 5 hours of the photoperiod and then the gas can be shut off. So a high initial injection rate which pulls the pH down for a short time is the way to go about it. Then, you shut off the injection and allow the residual CO2 levels to take care of the second half of the photoperiod. All one has to do is to look at the photos in the beginning of the thread to realize that the light setting used at the time was fine. Doubling the intensity quadruples the input energy, so it doesn't take much to satisfy the energy needs of any plant, even the ones that have a higher LCP. But CO2 has to be fixed first, because those plants having higher LCP usually also have higher CO2 compensation points. When CO2 is excellent the plants actually require LESS light to survive.

It's very tempting to conclude that there is not enough light, but that's only because we can see light. We can't see CO2.
CO2 does not move or behave in the same manner in which light behaves,  and we can't see where it's concentration is strong or where it is weak. So, we have to DEDUCE the behavior of CO2. That's one of the reasons I mentioned to supplement with liquid carbon. If the plants show improvement with liquid carbon addition then it's a sure sign that CO2 diffusion is not adequate.

Cheers,


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## hudsonpd (11 May 2013)

Thanks for everyone's help last weekend. After reading all of these, on Monday, I set the tank up as follows:

I upped the light (back up to 25% - not quite to the 30% it was at the beginning of this journal).

The CO2 injection period is now shorter and slightly higher than before - coming on slightly later and going off earlier with slightly higher injection during the period.

I also upped the pressure on the CO2 as I know the UP atomizer needs higher pressure to work better - it was at 2 bar and I thought that was ok. Anyway I have upped the pressure to 4 bar which does seem to have had an impact - the bubbles looked smaller and I am actually getting through less CO2 I think in the last week. The DC still turns lime green so I am hoping the higher pressure is improving CO2 diffusion.

I am also supplementing with 2X the recommended daily rate of Easy Carbo first thing in the morning.

This weekend I will take PH readings again to see if CO2 has improved. The first reading from over night (before CO2 comes on) is about 7.3-7.5

There are new shoots on the remaining stems of the new plants (what is left of them) although the Ludwiga has now all gone - the last couple of stems didn't make it through!

Fingers crossed. Will keep you all posted.

Paul


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## hudsonpd (12 May 2013)

OK, well I've only managed to take sporadic readings over the weekend but I still think I have a bit of a problem with diffusion.

Yesterday was looking positive with it dropping 1.0 within 2 hours of the last post above.

However, today I took a  reading just now at 3:30 and it was still only just under 7.0 - after 4 hours on. I think it should have dropped to more like 6.5 in more than that in 4 hours.

Not really sure what is going on tbh or why, even with an UP atomizer the diffusion isn't right. The only thing that changed was I had to change the CO2 bottle to a new one last night. Today it seems to be pumping out loads of the stuff but the reading is still only 7.0!

The only thing to try next is to clean the diffuser. Or swap to a different method of diffusion.

Paul


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## ceg4048 (12 May 2013)

Paul,
		Are you sure you don't have a leak? You should check the lines as well as the connections by squirting some washing up fluid+water mix along the length when the gas is on and check for bubbles.

Cheers,


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## livewire (12 May 2013)

Sorry I cant help much with your plant issues but could you tell me what you are using to hold the clear spray bar to the glass? I need to get some clear suction cups to hold my clear spray bar because it will look rubbish with black suction cups and clips. 

Cheers


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## hudsonpd (13 May 2013)

Yep no problem here is the pic. I found them in my LFS. It's not one I go to very often - reef and river in morecambe. It's about 30-40 mins from me but if you absolutely can't find any I could try and pop back at some time to post to you (can't remember how much they are). I did struggle to find any online before stumbling across them there. They are adjustable for different sizes - my pipe is quite wide in diameter

Did you make your own spray bar? Can you tell me how/if you have fitted some form of end cap to allow you to clean inside? I couldn't find out how to do that so just closed the end with the heat gun and now I can clean all the way inside


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## livewire (13 May 2013)

Cheers mate, I will keep hunting as I wont be setting up my new tank till it arrives in about 6 weeks. If you do pop to the shop in the near future I would be grateful if you could grab me 8 of these and I will send you the funds, will also give you first dibs when I next trim my tanks out. 

I am to lazy to make my own spray bars so got some from ebay, funny story behind it where I made an offer to the seller and he came back with a counter offer lower than the amount I had offered! so I snapped it up and bought 2 lots, they seem like good quality and all I need is some clear suction cups like yours to finish it off.

The spray bars need to be trimmed slightly so they wont sit so low in the water, but should be an easy job, I will also drill an extra hole just past where the straight part of the spray bar  meets the curved pipe.


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