# Heated Propagator: An emersed growing experiment . . .



## Wookii

For a while I’ve wanted to have a go at growing on cuttings and and baby plantlets emersed, to get larger and more robust plants quicker and with less maintenance, than trying to grow them on submerged. My inspiration was watching several YouTube videos of how Tropica and Dennerle do this commercially:







Then inspired further by @Courtneybst’s excellent thread (Buce Box) I asked the family for some kit for Christmas:







So that’s the kit, a heated propagator on the left, some grow lights, ultrasonic misters and mini DC pump in the middle, and an aeroponics propagator on the right. I won’t use the latter until I have larger plants with some decent initial roots, so this thread will focus initially on set up the shallower heated propagator.







For the growing medium I went with the Easyplug rather than rock wool, simply because they claim to acidify the water. I was concerned they may start to disintegrate when saturated, but fortunately they don’t, and they hold together pretty firm.

I expected that I was was going to have to make some modifications along the way, and the first issue I came across was the the planting tray is typically designed to sit on the base of the propagator.

I needed more depth below the tray as a) I wanted to ensure sufficient circulation of the water to ensure that additional nutrients added later on would be evenly spread to all plants, b) I also ensure that only the lower half of the tray was submerged, and c) I needed sufficient depth of water for the ultrasonic mister to work properly. So I made up some little stand-offs at work to lift the tray up about 30mm:







That resulted in getting the planting tray to a better height:







Next up I wanted to I wanted to get the pump working to circulate the water. I’m not sure how important this is on my scale - the commercial growers appear to pump their nutrient rich solution to all the growing tray, which makes sense given the size of their green houses, but I thought I would try and replicate in miniature.

The pump is a tiny 12v 1amp unit, but surprisingly powerful for its size. This is it operating on the lowest of its three settings - the other were too powerful:




Unfortunately I ran into issues getting the pump to fit under the growing tray, so had to remove the corner growing cube to accommodate it. However this also gives me easy access for dosing once set up.

I must caveat all this by making clear that I don’t have a single green finger. I have managed to successfully kill almost every house plant I’ve had a go at keeping. This whole propagator effort is an experiment and a nice little side project. Hopefully I’ll end up with a propagator bursting with robust healthy plants, but equally I could end up with a pile of soggy mush. Let’s roll the dice . . . 😂


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## GHNelson

Excellent journal, your not messing about 
Love these little projects....I would use Distilled water or RO in the growing tray!


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## Nick potts

Will be following this with interest.

I tried a propagator last year, just a cheap B&Q one which I lit with silly amounts of light. It grew dwarf hairgrass and rotala very well.


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## Wookii

GHNelson said:


> Excellent journal, your not messing about
> Love these little projects....I would use Distilled water or RO in the growing tray!



Thanks mate. Yeah, I’ll be using RO, adding a bit of GH (Mg and Ca) and the EI style ferts. As I don’t need to worry about livestock, I might experiment with ammonia based ferts too at some point to see if that can drive faster growth.


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## Wookii

So the next step has been to get the ultrasonic mister working properly. I figured this was going to be important to maintain a high level of humidity. This meant losing another planting cube, but even with two gone it still leaves 75 planting sites!!







The water level over the ultra sonic plate is a little lower than ideal, so I’ll have to keep an eye on the water level, but it still works.

However i encountered a problem straight away in that it caused a fountain effect which would spray adjacent plants:





So I modified the opening in the tray with a spare measuring cap off an old bottle, and the off-cut from a zip tie to hold it in place:





Here is it operating with the cover and lights on. I still want to modify it slightly, as more vapour is coming out on the right than the left, but that should be an easy fix.





So essentially now ready for planting. It takes about an hour to get up to upper 80’s to lower 90’s percent humidity, and I’m running the heater at 25 degrees C. I’m not sure if that’s the best temperature or not, but I want to promote growth as much as possible without risking cooking everything.


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## bazz

Good work, you're doing something along a similar line that I've been wanting to do for ages.
Watching!


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## Toby C

Hi, no messing around here!

I’d be really interested in seeing the growth of a much more basic set up as a comparison. (storage box / or propagator with watering)


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## Wookii

So I have an initial selection of plants to try.







Crypt. Nurii Rosen Maiden (invitro)
Crypt. Affinis Red (invitro)
Crypt. Lutea Hobbit
Crypt. Crypt Albida Brown
Crypt. Parva
Crypt. X-Willisii (an impulse buy from PAH)
Buce. Red
Buce Kedang

To be added: Anubias Nana Petit/Bonsai/Pangolino

I know it might be a bit contradictory starting with shop bought plants, but I wanted to start off with plants already growing in emersed form, rather than try and take submerged cuttings from my tanks. I will try adding some submerged anubias cuttings also as they don’t tend to shed leaves during transition.

The idea being, these bought plants can be split into numerous tiny plantlets for the propagator. Once (if) they grow into larger plants, some can then be split again for further growing on, so hopefully it can be somewhat self sustaining in theory.

The invitro plants are a bit of a risk, but I thought it worth a try to see if I can propagate these rarer varieties.


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## Wookii

Thats it all planted out then apart from a few bits of anubias to add to the right. I initially thought I might struggle to fill it, but I broke the plants down as far as was physically possible, and the two pots of Parva went an awful long way!

I put the invitro plants in first towards the centre in the hopes that will be the most protected area in terms of temperature and humidity. 

Time will tell I guess, so this is week 1, day 1:


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## Konsa

Hi all.
If the propagator is heated (or has a small heat mat under) there is no need for misting as it will evaporate water and maintain high humidity. 
I used to run cheap seed trays with small heat mat underneath and apart from initial wetting the substrate never misted.I also like to have some needle holes on lid so its not air tight and there will be no need to open it for ventilation once you find the sweet spot with how many holes are needed.
Will try to dig some pics out.
Regards Konstantin


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## Djoko Sauza

Have you taken any measures in particular in order to keep plant roots oxygenated? I believe that is key in promoting fast and healthy growth.

From my understanding in the nurseries they constantly cycle the trays between "nutrient solution soak" and "dry".

Same method is used in modern bonsai where a fast draining substrate is used and watered plenty a couple of times a day. Every watering provides nutrition, water (duh) and fresh oxygen at atmospheric levels.


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## heliophyte

Nice project. Good luck!


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## dw1305

Hi all,


Djoko Sauza said:


> Have you taken any measures in particular in order to keep plant roots oxygenated? I believe that is key in promoting fast and healthy growth.
> 
> From my understanding in the nurseries they constantly cycle the trays between "nutrient solution soak" and "dry".


<"Flood and drain">, but I don't think it will be an issue with the aquatic / semi-aquatic plants that @Wookii wants to propagate, because they will be adapted to growing in substrates with limited oxygenation. 

cheers Darrel


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## Wookii

Djoko Sauza said:


> Have you taken any measures in particular in order to keep plant roots oxygenated?



Only by virtue of the water being rapidly circulated by the pump. I could add a Venturi to the pump outlet if that would be of value.



Konsa said:


> Hi all.
> If the propagator is heated (or has a small heat mat under) there is no need for misting as it will evaporate water and maintain high humidity.
> I used to run cheap seed trays with small heat mat underneath and apart from initial wetting the substrate never misted.I also like to have some needle holes on lid so its not air tight and there will be no need to open it for ventilation once you find the sweet spot with how many holes are needed.
> Will try to dig some pics out.
> Regards Konstantin



You could well be right - I just wanted to try and maintain close to 100% humidity to ensure the leaves were damp at all times with these being aquatic plants rather than terrestrial seedlings. That said, the Tropica and Dennerle videos don’t appear to have quite that level of humidity, but do operate sprinkler systems.

As I say, this is all a bit of an experiment - if it works I can try a batch without the mister, and compare results.


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## MichaelJ

Hi @Wookii That is such as super cool project! I hope it really works out. 

Cheers,
Michael


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## Konsa

Hi
I am totally pro experiments
Following this thread as tried Albida brown and Buces in past .The albida brown became really beefed up but didn't send runners and the buces were on small lava stones with roots in the soil but didn't do much (they grew better in the tanks)
My only word of advice is not to saturate the medium too much as you want it moist but not wet.
Regards Konstantin


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## Wookii

heliophyte said:


> Nice project. Good luck!





MichaelJ said:


> Hi @Wookii That is such as super cool project! I hope it really works out.
> 
> Cheers,
> Michael



Thanks guys.

I’ll post weekly pictures and try to get images from the same perspective so we can try and compare growth! (I hope I’m not being too optimistic expecting to see growth between weeks!)


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## Courtneybst

Omg, all this since today!! I'm gonna have a good read when I get home. Excited for this! @Wookii


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## Djoko Sauza

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> <"Flood and drain">, but I don't think it will be an issue with the aquatic / semi-aquatic plants that @Wookii want s to propagate, because they will be adapted to growing in substrates with limited oxygenation.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Thanks for the details. Even with the plants being adapted to low oxygen levels in the substrate, wouldn't an increase in oxygen levels be an advantage? After all, the goal is to provide optimal conditions for plant growth.


Wookii said:


> I could add a Venturi to the pump outlet if that would be of value.


I'd think every little bit would help. But even using a venturi, a constantly flooded system will never achieve the same levels of oxygen a "flood and drain" system could. You see, every time water drains from the root system it gets replaced by air with 21ppm oxygen whereas you can only get around max 8ppm dissolved oxygen in the water.

But as @dw1305 mentions, it may be that higher oxygen levels are not that relevant to the development of your chosen plants and the benefits would be negligible.


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## greenbliss

This looks really promising so far. Nice thread. Really looking forward to hearing how the plants will do. I bet you will probably have hundreds of crypts in 6 months or so if all goes to plan.

I might use  this thread as inspiration in the near future as I want to try dabbling in tissue culture and I especially want to TC aquatic aroids such as Cryptocorynes, Lagenandra and Bucephalandra. I could possibly use something similar to acclimatise plantlets to normal growth conditions as it seems quite space efficient and not too expensive. Really nice idea.


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## Wookii

Djoko Sauza said:


> Thanks for the details. Even with the plants being adapted to low oxygen levels in the substrate, wouldn't an increase in oxygen levels be an advantage? After all, the goal is to provide optimal conditions for plant growth.
> 
> I'd think every little bit would help. But even using a venturi, a constantly flooded system will never achieve the same levels of oxygen a "flood and drain" system could. You see, every time water drains from the root system it gets replaced by air with 21ppm oxygen whereas you can only get around max 8ppm dissolved oxygen in the water.
> 
> But as @dw1305 mentions, it may be that higher oxygen levels are not that relevant to the development of your chosen plants and the benefits would be negligible.



I see. I guess that’s why aeroponics is so successful. Well I’ll run this as is now, and if it doesn’t work out I’ll try a flood and drain system with a different substrate like clay pebbles. It should be quite easy to organise with a couple of dosing pumps.


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## SRP3006

Looking good @Wookii . Great project, following with interest, some great plant choices too. 👍


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## dw1305

Hi all,


Djoko Sauza said:


> Even with the plants being adapted to low oxygen levels in the substrate, wouldn't an increase in oxygen levels be an advantage? After all, the goal is to provide optimal conditions for plant growth.


Yes, more oxygen will never hurt.


Djoko Sauza said:


> I'd think every little bit would help. But even using a venturi, a constantly flooded system will never achieve the same levels of oxygen a "flood and drain" system could. You see, every time water drains from the root system it gets replaced by air with 21ppm oxygen whereas you can only get around max 8ppm dissolved oxygen in the water.


I'm pretty sure that this will give enough oxygen with circulation, even without the venturi, but <"I'm a venturi fan">.


Djoko Sauza said:


> it may be that higher oxygen levels are not that relevant to the development of your chosen plants and the benefits would be negligible.


I'd guess that the _Bucephalandra _cuttings would be the ones that need the highest oxygen content, so I'd look at those first in terms of them rotting, rather than rooting.

cheers Darrel


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## greenbliss

dw1305 said:


> I'd guess that the _Bucephalandra _cuttings would be the ones that need the highest oxygen content, so I'd look at those first in terms of them rotting, rather than rooting.


I would definitely  agree. I had Bucephalandra planted in 50/50 perlite and either peat or some sort of compost and they rotted away at the roots. They really need to have a very airy substrate. I know people have success with using aquasoil and top dressing it with some lava rock.  I'd definitely try this if you end up having issues.


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## Wookii

dw1305 said:


> I'd guess that the _Bucephalandra _cuttings would be the ones that need the highest oxygen content, so I'd look at those first in terms of them rotting, rather than rooting.





greenbliss said:


> I would definitely  agree. I had Bucephalandra planted in 50/50 perlite and either peat or some sort of compost and they rotted away at the roots. They really need to have a very airy substrate. I know people have success with using aquasoil and top dressing it with some lava rock.  I'd definitely try this if you end up having issues.




Thanks guys - for the sites the Buce are in I could pull the planting plugs out of the tray (they are easy to remove) and replace with some Seramis granules that I have - would that be worth doing? Would you do this for anubias too?


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## GHNelson

Yes, do that for the Anubias....if you have Catappa leaves add a few around the container!


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## Aqua360

This is really cool, it makes sense for anyone with prolonged interest in aquascaping to try and keep a selection of plants like this; it's just getting over the initial hurdles, as well as trade off I suppose with running cost Vs buying plants every so often instead


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## GHNelson

There is more satisfaction if you grow your own!


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## dw1305

Hi all,


Wookii said:


> Thanks guys - for the sites the Buce are in I could pull the planting plugs out of the tray (they are easy to remove) and replace with some Seramis granules that I have - would that be worth doing? Would you do this for anubias too?





GHNelson said:


> Yes, do that for the Anubias.


Yes I would, and Seramis for the _Anubias _cuttings as well.

cheers Darrel


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## Deano3

Great thread @Wookii , as said by others love these experiments 😁 great very helpful read so far, also read @Courtneybst previous thread and same as you i wanted to try and will certainly do in future when get a bit time 😅.

Will this be a cheap setup to run ? I also think that the sytem should be ok without the mister as i have a small dooa maru pot with bucephlandra kedagang in and i literally mist once in a blue moon, been there for years now and even grown but only a small amout as not much light but i do think they hold humidity very well and the mister cant hurt and looks good 😏.

Watching with interest and will more than likely be copying at some point and try fit in my 900 cabinet .I would love to try propagate rare expensive plants but keep up the hard work and keep us updated.  Thanks 😊


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## Wookii

Deano3 said:


> Great thread @Wookii , as said by others love these experiments 😁 great very helpful read so far, also read @Courtneybst previous thread and same as you i wanted to try and will certainly do in future when get a bit time 😅.
> 
> Will this be a cheap setup to run ? I also think that the sytem should be ok without the mister as i have a small dooa maru pot with bucephlandra kedagang in and i literally mist once in a blue moon, been there for years now and even grown but only a small amout as not much light but i do think they hold humidity very well and the mister cant hurt and looks good 😏.
> 
> Watching with interest and will more than likely be copying at some point and try fit in my 900 cabinet .I would love to try propagate rare expensive plants but keep up the hard work and keep us updated.  Thanks 😊



Thanks mate. Not sure on the cost to run - certainly less than a small aquarium. It could potentially be ran outside during the Summer also, removing the need for lights and a fair bit of the heating.

There is obviously the sunk cost of the equipment (though mine was a present from the whole family), but then with each batch of plants, that cost essentially gets spread between each plant created (I’ll also be using this kit to grow on other garden plants and seeds at some point so it’ll get use elsewhere). 

I also had to buy the initial starter batch of plants, but again, if they do grow, some of the plants can be sacrificed and split for the next round of propagation. If I were currently using stem plants in my tanks, I’d use some of those cuttings to grow emersed too to see how they got on.

I’ve read several people now saying that the Buce don’t grow very much emersed, and grow better submerged so I don’t have high hopes for those - though that being said shop bought ones always come emersed with the roots growing well into the rockwool, so I assume they are grown from small cuttings emersed by Tropica et al. Who knows what they do to get them to grow.


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## Wookii

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> 
> Yes I would, and Seramis for the _Anubias _cuttings as well.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Thanks Darrel, Seramis added in place of the growing plugs:


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## Antix8989

This is ace. I'll definitely be checking back on your progress.


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## Nick potts

GHNelson said:


> There is more satisfaction if you grow your own!


100% this.

By the time you buy everything you need, and power costs it probably is cheaper to just buy plants, but nothing beats getting your hands dirty and growing your own. (for me at least )


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## Konsa

Wookii said:


> Thanks mate. Not sure on the cost to run - certainly less than a small aquarium. It could potentially be ran outside during the Summer also, removing the need for lights and a fair bit of the heating.


Hi
be careful when you put them outside.
No direct sunlight should be hitting the propagator at any point.It will increase temperature inside very rapidly and will most likely scorch the leaves.
Cost of running one of them propagators in summer will be more or less equal to the cost of running your light source so not dear at all.Depending on your lights  choice you can run multiple propagators under one light unit consumption. I used to run led spot lights back in the day over each propagator.They were not powerful enough to get super fast growth but it suited my needs of keeping spares of plants or strengthen in vitro plants for use in my low techs.
I always preferred to use artificial lights only as it is more convenient and consistent than moving the propagator out of direct sun all the time.
Regards Konstantin


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## Wookii

Can anyone recommend an all in one liquid plant fertiliser that contains urea/ammonia for the nitrogen source?

I have some BioBizz Fishmix, so could use that, but I’m not sure if it’s missing any nutrients, or is the ideal combination of nutrients for this project.

I can ofcourse continue using EI ferts if there aren’t any real advantages in using anything else, but given there aren’t any livestock concerns with this I thought I’d consider other options?


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## GHNelson

Have a look at Solufeed ferts!





						Hobby garden packs
					

The same professional grade water soluble fertilizes but in pack sizes appropriate to the smaller




					shopfront.solufeed.co.uk
				



You can use these as a diluted foliar feeds also.
hoggie


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## greenbliss

I think another thing worth mentioning is keeping the whole thing clean of dead plant material etc. In wet conditions any sort of filth can begin to cause issues. Little bits of dirt splash on leaves and build up eventually causing them to rot or cause mould. Attached bellow is an image of an algae blob I found in my emersed setup today which reminded me of this. You can also see in certain parts the leaves have holes in them and this is simply because of rotting plant matter splashing onto them, causing rotting. I  think it is genuinely really worth it to dump everything out every few months and just give it a rinse in some tap water.


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## Wookii

Day 9:

Bit of a mixed bag after just over a week. Some of the invitro plants have definitely grown and are starting to show some new leaves, though are remaining a little ‘limp’. Of the potted plants, some leaves have melted, whilst there has been some growth in the remaining leaves and some new leaves starting to show.






As you can see though, the Crypt Parva has comprehensively melted. These were the only potted plants from an eBay seller, and were a bit puny when they arrived (compared to the bushy Tropica pots I have had in the past from retailers). Whether this is a factor, I don’t know - I’ve never had much success with eBay plants - or whether the growing cubes are too wet or there is some other factor?





I definitely think, if I replace the Parva, I will also replace the growing cubes with the Seramis to get more air to, and less water drenching of, the roots, as suggested above. The Seramis wicks up water rapidly between the grains, but let’s a lot more air through the gaps.


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## Wookii

GHNelson said:


> Have a look at Solufeed ferts!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hobby garden packs
> 
> 
> The same professional grade water soluble fertilizes but in pack sizes appropriate to the smaller
> 
> 
> 
> 
> shopfront.solufeed.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can use these as a diluted foliar feeds also.
> hoggie



Which of those would be best do you think - the “high N” or “high K”?


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## GHNelson

Hi Wooki
I use High K as a foliar feed....don't exceed the recommended grams per litre!
I use 0.5 grams per 2 Litre!
Ive never had much success with the more difficult Invitro Crypts....especially  Nurii.....I would make up a mix of gravel and crushed lava rock for the Parva media!


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## Wookii

GHNelson said:


> Hi Wooki
> I use High K as a foliar feed....don't exceed the recommended grams per litre!
> I use 0.5 grams per 2 Litre!
> Ive never had much success with the more difficult Invitro Crypts....especially  Nurii.....I would make up a mix of gravel and crushed lava rock for the Parva media!



Would you recommend the same grams per litre for the root solution too?


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## GHNelson

This foilage feed will eventually seep down into the holding container so you may not need to add root dosing solution!


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## dw1305

Hi all,


Wookii said:


> These were the only potted plants from an eBay seller, and were a bit puny when they arrived


My guess is that it was ill fate that befell them before they ever came to you.

Chilling damage might be an option, or it could be that they had been kept in too dark a place (before they came to you).

cheers Darrel


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## Konsa

Wookii said:


> Day 9:
> 
> Bit of a mixed bag after just over a week. Some of the invitro plants have definitely grown and are starting to show some new leaves, though are remaining a little ‘limp’. Of the potted plants, some leaves have melted, whilst there has been some growth in the remaining leaves and some new leaves starting to show.
> 
> 
> View attachment 180584
> 
> As you can see though, the Crypt Parva has comprehensively melted. These were the only potted plants from an eBay seller, and were a bit puny when they arrived (compared to the bushy Tropica pots I have had in the past from retailers). Whether this is a factor, I don’t know - I’ve never had much success with eBay plants - or whether the growing cubes are too wet or there is some other factor?
> 
> View attachment 180585
> 
> I definitely think, if I replace the Parva, I will also replace the growing cubes with the Seramis to get more air to, and less water drenching of, the roots, as suggested above. The Seramis wicks up water rapidly between the grains, but let’s a lot more air through the gaps.


Hi there
The medium seems a little too wet for my liking.
Sorry to hear about the C parva.
It might have been a weak plant that failed to adapt.Do try another batch tho.
I have only used Osmocote  slow release granules as fertilizer as I always keep my propagators drier and it released nutrients gradually rather than dumping them rapidly
Sth else I use is Canna Rhyzotonic. It really give the plants a boost to develop strong  root systems.Tbh I use it  for short periods when my Epiphytes, newly planted invitro plants and mosses need a boost in my tanks too but is a not cheapest product 
Regards Konstantin


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## Wookii

Konsa said:


> Hi there
> The medium seems a little too wet for my liking.
> Sorry to hear about the C parva.
> It might have been a weak plant that failed to adapt.Do try another batch tho.
> I have only used Osmocote  slow release granules as fertilizer as I always keep my propagators drier and it released nutrients gradually rather than dumping them rapidly
> Sth else I use is Canna Rhyzotonic. It really give the plants a boost to develop strong  root systems.Tbh I use it  for short periods when my Epiphytes, newly planted invitro plants and mosses need a boost in my tanks too but is a not cheapest product
> Regards Konstantin



Thanks @Konsa - yes even though the water level only covers the bottom 5-10mm of the the planting cubes, they seem to wick up water like a sponge and stay really sodden. I am half debating swapping them all out for the Seramis which still manages to wick the water too, but remains much less water logged ofcourse.

I do have a bottle of Rhyzotonic, and I hadn’t though to use it, thanks for the suggestion.


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## Ehcosbie

Do you have any updates? Interested to see how the buce are doing.


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## Wookii

Ehcosbie said:


> Do you have any updates? Interested to see how the buce are doing.



I completely forgot to take a photo on Sunday, time ran away with me. This is as it stands mid-week:






I did have some issues keeping the humidity high enough - I suspect because the cables for the pump, temp sensor and mister were all running underneath the rim of the lid in the rear left corner, it was causing too large an air gap - the X-Willisii on that side closest have suffers as a result, where as the ones on the other side are doing well. So I’ve now routed all the cables through the vents in the lid.

The Buce appear to be pushing out new leaves, which is good. 

The anubias I added in have largely turned to mush - it appears they don’t like going from submerged to emersed.

I’ve gradually transitioned from the planting cubes to Seramis for all but six plants, so they are less water logged and to get more air to the roots as suggested in this thread. Some of the Albida Browns haven’t responded too well to the move, so I’ll have to see if they bounce back,

I removed all of the Crypt Parva that had melted. I tried to replace it first with an order from Aqua Essentials which I had to send back as the plants were so pitifully small they equated to about £1 a leaf. Then I visited Pro Shrimp and their plants weren’t in very good shape (given the state of many of the potted plants, and the way they store them it’s a wonder they get any deliveries accepted!). Eventually I got a tiny invitro pot from eBay - so I’ve planted those tonight - they’re tiny, so I’m not holding my breath.

I added some more Nurii and Albida Brown too to fill in the gaps.

All the existing plants seem to be growing, albeit slowly, and I’m seeing new leaves on most. It was interesting breaking the plants out of the growing cubes to change to Seramis - most of them has already pushed roots out the bottom of the cubes!


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## dw1305

Hi all,


Wookii said:


> It was interesting breaking the plants out of the growing cubes to change to Seramis - most of them has already pushed roots out the bottom of the cubes!


Sounds like the growing cubes are fine as a medium, even if they look a bit scuzzy.

cheers Darrel


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## Wookii

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Sounds like the growing cubes are fine as a medium, even if they look a bit scuzzy.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Yeah, it was a bit of a catch 22 taking them out. They were just very efficient at soaking up the water, so they always stayed vary saturated.  I might keep the four remaining Wendtii Affinis Red’s in them, so I can compare the two mediums.

In hindsight I probably should have tried not be too smart, and just gone with rockwool. I guess there is a good reason why all the big boys use it. I’ll give it a go in the next round.


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## JacksonL

Very interesting setup! Following along


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## Wookii

GHNelson said:


> Hi Wooki
> I use High K as a foliar feed....don't exceed the recommended grams per litre!
> I use 0.5 grams per 2 Litre!
> Ive never had much success with the more difficult Invitro Crypts....especially  Nurii.....I would make up a mix of gravel and crushed lava rock for the Parva media!



The Solufeed High-K arrived - often would you suggest I apply it as a foliage feed?


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## greenbliss

Wookii said:


> The Solufeed High-K arrived - often would you suggest I apply it as a foliage feed


I would say that just for the health of the Bucephalandra and Cryptocoryne, it might be worth keeping the fertilisation on the low side. They tend to come from more nutrient poor areas and don't need much. I sometimes abandon my setups for months and although the plants maybe grow a bit slower, they don't really get stunted or discoloured. I also believe the ceramis is a clay based media so that should help quite a lot.

BUT people do keep more common species in EI fertilised tanks without encountering too many problems in terms of plant health. That being said, more uncommon species will most likely be a lot more sensitive to high amounts of fertiliser.


----------



## Wookii

Right so here is the 1 month update:





Most plants are actively growing and putting out new leaves, just at different rates, which is to be expected.  As you can see from the image, those plants I left in the original Ez-Plug planting cubes are doing markedly better than those in the Seramis. So I’m not convinced the Seramis is the best way forward.
The main issue I’m having now is an algae outbreak. Most of the substrates are getting covered is a slime algae of some sort, and it’s starting to get onto some of the leaves:





I’m going to guess it’s because the substrate is too wet perhaps? However I’m not too sure how to tackle it.

I have ordered a load of rockwool planting cubes, so I’m not sure if I should remove all the plants, clean off all the algae, and replant in the rockwool?

Open to ideas and suggestions.


----------



## Hufsa

Wookii said:


> The main issue I’m having now is an algae outbreak. Most of the substrates are getting covered is a slime algae of some sort, and it’s starting to get onto some of the leaves:
> 
> I’m going to guess it’s because the substrate is too wet perhaps? However I’m not too sure how to tackle it.


Ive been researching crypts lately and they often grow them emersed a lot like you do. They say you must use moss around the crypt, the moss will somehow outcompete or make the conditions unsuitable for the slime and that keeps everything nice and tidy. I think just about any "normal" moss will do, I'd go for an aquarium species, that way you know it will tolerate the same conditions as the plants. Taxiphyllum or Vesicularia species for instance.
I dont have any personal experience with it but it seems to be the standard way, I would give it a go


----------



## Ehcosbie

Interesting looking at the tray as a whole, the areas affected by algae looks like it is circular in shape and emanates  from the mister in the centre.   If this is the case ( hard to tell from a phot viewed on a phone), would an adjustment to the mister be needed, be it position/ height or frequency of misting?  Just a thought, anyway.


----------



## Konsa

Hi
I used to get similar slime in my setup. 
Best course of action is to dry the substrate in order to keep it check. 
Tbh I never had any standing water at all in my setup.I rarely misted and any water in the undertray was discarded after misting. Think in the lines of damp house plant pot consistency. Even if the top dries out a little is not a biggie ,as long there is moisture in lower levels it will keep the humidity high enough  .
Also why not try granulated fertilizer in the medium as nutrient rich spray is probably helping the algae development. 
Can't comment on the rock wool as I always used potting compost in my setups.
Regards Konstantin


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> Ive been researching crypts lately and they often grow them emersed a lot like you do. They say you must use moss around the crypt, the moss will somehow outcompete or make the conditions unsuitable for the slime and that keeps everything nice and tidy. I think just about any "normal" moss will do, I'd go for an aquarium species, that way you know it will tolerate the same conditions as the plants. Taxiphyllum or Vesicularia species for instance.
> I dont have any personal experience with it but it seems to be the standard way, I would give it a go



Not come across the moss usage before - I don't think the commercial growers use it, though they do all grow them emersed as you say. Do you have any links to where you've seen it - I've certainly got plenty I could use.


----------



## Hufsa

Wookii said:


> Not come across the moss usage before - I don't think the commercial growers use it, though they do all grow them emersed as you say. Do you have any links to where you've seen it - I've certainly got plenty I could use.


I was all over the internet and dont remember all of it, but I did a quick search and one of the places I saw it mentioned was at the collector site called Bolbi
For "science" you could do a couple of pots with moss and a couple with other methods?
It doesnt seem like everyone uses it, I think there is something to the factor of how rich spray one uses as well.


----------



## Ehcosbie

Ehcosbie said:


> Interesting looking at the tray as a whole, the areas affected by algae looks like it is circular in shape and emanates  from the mister in the centre.   If this is the case ( hard to tell from a phot viewed on a phone), would an adjustment to the mister be needed, be it position/ height or frequency of misting?  Just a thought, anyway.


As light can be a cause of algae, does the mist intensify the light? If so, would only misting when lights are out help?

Probably worth trying some form of adjustment to see if it has an impact before spending money on alternatives, just a thought.


----------



## Wookii

Ehcosbie said:


> Interesting looking at the tray as a whole, the areas affected by algae looks like it is circular in shape and emanates  from the mister in the centre.   If this is the case ( hard to tell from a phot viewed on a phone), would an adjustment to the mister be needed, be it position/ height or frequency of misting?  Just a thought, anyway.



Yes, good observation - I think this suggests the mister is on too much, and wetting those substrates immediately around it too much.



Konsa said:


> Hi
> I used to get similar slime in my setup.
> Best course of action is to dry the substrate in order to keep it check.
> Tbh I never had any standing water at all in my setup.I rarely misted and any water in the undertray was discarded after misting. Think in the lines of damp house plant pot consistency. Even if the top dries out a little is not a biggie ,as long there is moisture in lower levels it will keep the humidity high enough  .



Thanks @Konsa - I think you're right, the substrate is too wet, probably because of the mister, and the fact that the bases of the pots are essentially submerged by 10mm or so.

In your set-up, if you had no standing water, how did you keep the humidity high enough? Did the leaves mainly remain dry most of the time - I've been trying to maintain humidity to the level that there are actual water droplets on the leaves, as per Darrel's advice here:









						Buce Box (How to easily propagate Bucephalandra and other emersed plants)
					

Just to clarify, are you growing your mosses directly on lava stone or on top of aquasoil with lava underneath, it isn’t immediately obvious your method from the post.  Hey Garuf, the mosses are grown directly on lava stone.



					www.ukaps.org
				




How often did you manually mist yours?



Konsa said:


> Also why not try granulated fertilizer in the medium as nutrient rich spray is probably helping the algae development.
> Can't comment on the rock wool as I always used potting compost in my setups.
> Regards Konstantin



The water in the base of the propagator is loaded with the most nutrients, so I've not been adding much with manual misting - I'm just using pure RO with a small amount of micros and Rhizotonic in. I might change that down to pure RO though, and just have the nutrient solution in the base.

I could do away with the mister entirely, I'm just paranoid of the plant leaves drying out too much? But then I look at the Tropica/Dennerle videos, and they don't look at all wet 🤷🏻‍♂️


----------



## Wookii

Ehcosbie said:


> As light can be a cause of algae, does the mist intensify the light? If so, would only misting when lights are out help?
> 
> Probably worth trying some form of adjustment to see if it has an impact before spending money on alternatives, just a thought.



I'm not sure the mister intensifies the light, but the area you identified with the most algae, is also the central overlap of both lighting tubes, so that could be a factor along with being wetter.


----------



## Konsa

Hi
I don't have much going atm but following my earlier post.Below is a small 8oz pot with Monte carlo I am keeping.It is started 4 ish weeks ago with 3 small stems with 3-4 leaves on them.
Anyway Monte carlo is a weed emersed but the pics will give you idea about moisture levels.As seen there is condensation not standing water all the way down.I have 6 needle holes on the lid for air exchange and I have opened the pot once since it was started to mop up some condensation from the sides and the lid and didn't mist at all since initial setup,no ferts  too.












Edit:
The moistture in the substrate substrate will maintain the humidity in the enclosure. As long as you have condensation going it should be fine and sufficient. You will get some droplets on leaves but it doesn't have to be constantly.
Most plants will adapt to the lower level humidity in time.Its a slow process and takes time especially if you start with cuttings from your tank.Its up to you to find the sweet spot where algae mold and other nasties are in check but the leaves don't wilt .
Its easy to start damp and let it dry out slowly Mopping condensation of the sides/lid is my way of taking water out as I don't ventilate often(if ever)
Regards Konstantin 

Regards Konstantin


----------



## Wookii

I am starting to see why the big boys (Tropica et al) use a flood and drain system now (not that I realised they did that until @dw1305 pointed it out).

I have had a cunning plan about how I could implement that using the current propagator and the USB pump! 🧐


----------



## Ehcosbie

Wookii said:


> I am starting to see why the big boys (Tropica et al) use a flood and drain system now (not that I realised they did that until @dw1305 pointed it out).
> 
> I have had a cunning plan about how I could implement that using the current propagator and the USB pump! 🧐
> 
> View attachment 182746


I can’t wait. Keep us updated with progress, I am finding this to be a really interesting project.


----------



## Wookii

So at the 2 minute mark in this video I posted previously, you can see the flood system working (never spotted this before!) - looks to me like the system only floods to about half the height of the posts. Would everyone concur?



I see in the video that there is an extensive sprinkler system in there also - can we assume they pump some rain water through that every so often too and shower the plants?


----------



## arcturus

Wookii said:


> So at the 2 minute mark in this video I posted previously, you can see the flood system working (never spotted this before!) - looks to me like the system only floods to about half the height of the posts. Would everyone concur?


Yep.


Wookii said:


> I see in the video that there is an extensive sprinkler system in there also - can we assume they pump some rain water through that every so often too and shower the plants?


There is another of these videos (not sure if from Tropica or Dennerle) where they show the sprinklers in full action. 

Regarding the algae, you can try adding an opaque plastic square to cover the substrate with a small cutout to let the plant stem out. This would block most of the light. I got a few of those on a planter I had.  Something like this (top view).


----------



## Wookii

arcturus said:


> There is another of these videos (not sure if from Tropica or Dennerle) where they show the sprinklers in full action.



Thanks, any chance you can post a link?


----------



## arcturus

Wookii said:


> Thanks, any chance you can post a link?




Around 10:45. They also discuss the watering setup a bit later (15:45).


----------



## Ehcosbie

This video shows a homemade aquaponics set up with a fill and drain system. About 2.30 into the video he explains how it works.  Also at 7.0 mins he shares an in house fish tank version.  You might be able to scale down a solution (or get some ideas) from this, to use in your very interesting experiment. 
Note: I struggle with the idea of keeping fish in a waterbutt.


----------



## Courtneybst

In my experience @Wookii  the humidity will be maintained as long as it's fairly well sealed. The droplets on the leaves aren't necessary and in fact are probably contributing to any algae/mold development.

The leaves in my buce box are pretty much dry, at most moist to the touch. I also feed from the bottom using opened up root tabs and liquid ferts into the water (only a few drops). I've never changed the water out since it was setup and there's no algae.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


Wookii said:


> I think this suggests the mister is on too much, and wetting those substrates immediately around it too much.


That would be my guess. The algae looks like <"a _Nostoc sp."> _cyanobacteria in a mucilage "slime". 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Ehcosbie

Wookii said:


> So the next step has been to get the ultrasonic mister working properly. I figured this was going to be important to maintain a high level of humidity. This meant losing another planting cube, but even with two gone it still leaves 75 planting sites!!
> 
> 
> View attachment 180006
> 
> 
> The water level over the ultra sonic plate is a little lower than ideal, so I’ll have to keep an eye on the water level, but it still works.
> 
> However i encountered a problem straight away in that it caused a fountain effect which would spray adjacent plants:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I modified the opening in the tray with a spare measuring cap off an old bottle, and the off-cut from a zip tie to hold it in place:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is it operating with the cover and lights on. I still want to modify it slightly, as more vapour is coming out on the right than the left, but that should be an easy fix.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So essentially now ready for planting. It takes about an hour to get up to upper 80’s to lower 90’s percent humidity, and I’m running the heater at 25 degrees C. I’m not sure if that’s the best temperature or not, but I want to promote growth as much as possible without risking cooking everything.
> 
> View attachment 180008



Looking at the 2nd to last video, this shows the spread of the mist and it seems to concentrate on the central areas as discussed above.

Would it be worth the effort making another video of the mister in action now withe the plants and the cover on?


----------



## Konsa

Hi
they are using misters as they operate on large scale(whole greenhouses).The small propagators(aka plastic box with lid)  we use does not require such  manipulation as they maintain high humidity when closed due to the volume of saturated with water growing media.
I prefer light permanent ventilation in place (small holes in the lid)rather than airing the propagator by removing the lid as that way it  maintain  its humidity and is virtually impossible to dry the leaves too much as opposed to fully removing the lid frequently 
Regards Konstantin


----------



## foxfish

I agree with Konsa, I have grown hundreds of emersed set ups and prefer not to remove the top or spray.
My very best results come in the summer when my set ups go outside and receive loads of indirect sunlight.
A lose fitting glass lid resting on a single match stick or cling film with a couple of tiny holes.
This method causes lots of condensation and natural drips from the lid making the inside very humid.
For growing inside in the winter I use a reptile heat mat under the tank and 14 hours of bright light.


----------



## Wookii

Konsa said:


> I prefer light permanent ventilation in place (small holes in the lid)rather than airing the propagator by removing the lid as that way it  maintain  its humidity and is virtually impossible to dry the leaves too much as opposed to fully removing the lid frequently



Thanks @Konsa - the propagator lid has adjustable vents on the top, so I have always have these with a small 5mm gap open - would be sufficient?


----------



## Wookii

foxfish said:


> I agree with Konsa, I have grown hundreds of emersed set ups and prefer not to remove the top or spray.
> My very best results come in the summer when my set ups go outside and receive loads of indirect sunlight.
> A lose fitting glass lid resting on a single match stick or cling film with a couple of tiny holes.
> This method causes lots of condensation and natural drips from the lid making the inside very humid.
> For growing inside in the winter I use a reptile heat mat under the tank and 14 hours of bright light.



Thanks @foxfish - this might be a daft question, but for the outside ones, how do you ensure the indirect sunlight? Literally by placing them in a spot that is constantly shaded, or using something over them to diffuse the light? Are the tropical plants able to withstand the night time temperatures then?


----------



## Konsa

Wookii said:


> Thanks @Konsa - the propagator lid has adjustable vents on the top, so I have always have these with a small 5mm gap open - would be sufficient?


Hi
it should be ok. 
Just monitor the plants below it.If for some reason you get brown edges(wilt)close it a bit more.The thing with gasses is they always find their way in and out. 
You have chosen a little more challenging plants for propagation but tbh growing things emersed its really easy and you seem to complicate your setup way too much.
For me is always been the cheapest seed tray from B&Q , granulated fertilizer, dirt, a little water and nothing else.Pop plants in and let them do their thing
Edit:
Sth else to consider in regards of Cryptocoryne sp.
When planting those you may want to plant them straight into the bottom tray without the   cube insert tray.Those cubes are rather small and we all know what happens when you pot Cryptocoryne in tank(root restriction equals smaller plant)
I have done that and it works well as roots have more space to spread but is a bit more difficult with the water as it has nowhere to drain off and when you take plants out is a bit messy as multiple individual plant roots tangle together. 
Regards Konstantin


----------



## foxfish

For the outside tanks it is important to avoid bright overhead sun but early morning or evening sun is perfect.
It seems most aquarium plants are good outside from May until October but I even have one going now with hair grass, it is a little brown in places but still alive!
So my tanks sit below a stand of trees facing West, that means they dont get direct sun until around 4pm in mid summer.


----------



## Wookii

The ‘cunning plan’ for converting to a flood and drain system is well under way:


----------



## Wookii

Konsa said:


> You have chosen a little more challenging plants for propagation but tbh growing things emersed its really easy and you seem to complicate your setup way too much.



Ofcourse - where’s the fun if you can’t completely over-engineer it! 😂 



Konsa said:


> Sth else to consider in regards of Cryptocoryne sp.
> When planting those you may want to plant them straight into the bottom tray without the cube insert tray.



The root stocks on most of the are far too small to do that, they’re just drop through the hole in the bottom. Once they’re established with some half decent roots, I’ll transfer them to the  aeroponics propagator which will allow them to grow unrestricted and substrate free.


----------



## Wookii

Right, so that’s the swap over to a flood and drain system complete. It took a good few hours to pull all the plants out and try and clean off as much of the nasty slime as possible with a soft paintbrush under the tap,  and then repot in the rockwool. With less space some have had to share pots.






A few of the plants have suffered a fair bit with the slime, so I’m hoping they’ll be able to bounce back.

Others are doing quite well though and had some decent root systems.

For the flood and drain tray I botched together a simple spray bar (copying what Tropica had in the video). I’m not sure what the purpose of that is, whether it is to aerate the solution as it’s added to the trays, or something else I’m not sure, but it was easy enough to implement so I did.

I have attached the tiny pump I was using before. On its lowest power setting it takes about a minute to fill the tray, and then two 4mm holes at the other end allow it to drain fully, which takes about two minutes after the pump stops running.





That puts the water level about half way up the rockwool cubes in the pots.

I’m happy that the 3 minutes of filling and draining is sufficient to soak the rockwool. However does anyone have any suggestions for how frequently I should run the flood/drain cycle? (I have 20 maximum entries on the Tapo smart plug, so can set 10 cycles max.)


----------



## Wookii

Also, when I took the old tray out, I found this stowaway - I’ve no idea what it is, but it’s grown there entirely on its own. Can anyone ID it?


----------



## Konsa

HI
Loving the setup. 
Hopefully it will do a good job.
Regards Konstantin


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


Wookii said:


> I’ve no idea what it is, but it’s grown there entirely on its own. Can anyone ID it?


It is a "thalloid liverwort", you can see the <"gemmae cup"> so it maybe a <"_Marchantia_ sp">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Wookii

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> It is a "thalloid liverwort", you can see the <"gemmae cup"> so it maybe a <"_Marchantia_ sp">.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Thanks Darrel, it’s grown very quickly on its own. Will it grow submerged?


----------



## Maf 2500

> does anyone have any suggestions for how frequently I should run the full/drain cycle?


Rockwool holds onto moisture very well (used it years ago in hydroponics). I would suggest flooding every 4 hours or so during the light period and maybe once during the middle of the night period.


----------



## Wookii

Maf 2500 said:


> Rockwool holds onto moisture very well (used it years ago in hydroponics). I would suggest flooding every 4 hours or so during the light period and maybe once during the middle of the night period.



Thanks @Maf 2500 I've set it to 4 hourly intervals, we'll see how it gets on.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


Wookii said:


> Will it grow submerged?


I'd guess probably not, but you could give it a try.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hufsa

dw1305 said:


> you could give it a try.


Second this


----------



## Wookii

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'd guess probably not, but you could give it a try.
> 
> cheers Darrel





Hufsa said:


> Second this



I'll give it a go - the 'leaves' (if you can call them that) are very unusual, they are quite solid, not soft at all, and have hundreds of tiny roots on the underside. I've moved them to a windowsill tray that I'm growing on some moss in for now - that's shallow enough to keep the roots wet, but the leaves above water.


----------



## Atragene

*I use JI2 plus peat for all my emmersed crypts, Varying the amount of peat I hope to suit individual species
with rain water half way up the pot. A neutral to acid soil mix seems to help control mosses.
I prefer using  Invitro plants. With the numbers of identical plants you can plant in varying soil mixes both emerged and immersed and find out a good protocol for a particular species, should you wish to.
For example  here is a dark form of nurii that is reluctant to grow immersed, whilst the green form romps away and flowers readily.*
I use varying sized Kilner jars for the larger crypts. with soil but no capping and some water


----------



## OllieTY

Atragene said:


> *I use JI2 plus peat for all my emmersed crypts, Varying the amount of peat I hope to suit individual species
> with rain water half way up the pot. A neutral to acid soil mix seems to help control mosses.
> I prefer using  Invitro plants. With the numbers of identical plants you can plant in varying soil mixes both emerged and immersed and find out a good protocol for a particular species, should you wish to.
> For example  here is a dark form of nurii that is reluctant to grow immersed, whilst the green form romps away and flowers readily.*
> I use varying sized Kilner jars for the larger crypts. with soil but no capping and some water


 Would love to see some photos of your growing setups


----------



## greenbliss

Atragene said:


> *I use JI2 plus peat for all my emmersed crypts, Varying the amount of peat I hope to suit individual species
> with rain water half way up the pot. A neutral to acid soil mix seems to help control mosses.
> I prefer using  Invitro plants. With the numbers of identical plants you can plant in varying soil mixes both emerged and immersed and find out a good protocol for a particular species, should you wish to.
> For example  here is a dark form of nurii that is reluctant to grow immersed, whilst the green form romps away and flowers readily.*
> I use varying sized Kilner jars for the larger crypts. with soil but no capping and some water


Sorry for hijacking the threadslightly..
I am a bit worried since peat is getting banned somewhat soon and by then I might have quite a large collection of Cryptocoryne and wouldn't have figured out what to really use for them substrate wise. I know from some German websites that a lot of growers use simply sand + clay for common species. I really would suggest people try alternative substrates that are more sustainable. I am not particularly keen on the use of peat either, and try to avoid it from now on when possible.


----------



## Wookii

greenbliss said:


> Sorry for hijacking the threadslightly..
> I am a bit worried since peat is getting banned somewhat soon and by then I might have quite a large collection of Cryptocoryne and wouldn't have figured out what to really use for them substrate wise. I know from some German websites that a lot of growers use simply sand + clay for common species. I really would suggest people try alternative substrates that are more sustainable. I am not particularly keen on the use of peat either, and try to avoid it from now on when possible.



I would have thought standard potting compost could be used instead, many of which are now peat free. A bit too messy for my purposes, and the humic/fluvic acids can be added to nutrient solution separately in my case.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


greenbliss said:


> and by then I might have quite a large collection of Cryptocoryne and wouldn't have figured out what to really use for them substrate wise.  I really would suggest people try alternative substrates that are more sustainable. I am not particularly keen on the use of peat either, and try to avoid it from now on when possible.


Oak (_Quercus_ spp.)<"Leaf mold">. Used by a number of <"_Cryptocoryne_ growers">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## greenbliss

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Oak (_Quercus_ spp.)<"Leaf mold">. Used by a number of <"_Cryptocoryne_ growers">.
> 
> cheers Darrel


I'm quite surprised at how high the PH is. I always assumed leaf mould would be fairly acidic and only suitable for the blackwater species. Seems like a good alternative for sure.


----------



## greenbliss

Wookii said:


> I would have thought standard potting compost could be used instead, many of which are now peat free. A bit too messy for my purposes, and the humic/fluvic acids can be added to nutrient solution separately in my case.


Yes you could. But I did recently find a website online that said the reason leaf mould/*leaf litter works so well is not entirely due to the composition of the soil, but  due to the  microorganisms and fungi found in the leaf mould. I am not entirely true how sure this is at all but I think it is a reasonable suggestion. When I got my leaf litter from underneath a beech hedge it was full of mycelium, so much so that I had to physically break it apart with my hands. It was also absolutely crawling with all sorts of small insects and worms, which made me dread using it for my plants. But when I added a top of layer of this leaf litter onto the soil in my  L. nairii tub the plants actually started to look a lot better after a few weeks. Coincidence? Probably.
Now I'm not sure how true any of this is. It could be all wrong but it doesn't seem like a totally absurd claim for someone to make.

***Cryptocoryne matakensis <*This link shows a C. Matakensis flowering + developing fruit in what seems to be simply half decomposed leaf litter rather than leaf mould. On this same website you can find many claims of people using "beech leaf litter" rather than "leaf mould".Considering it is a website run by people who have many years hands on experience with Cryptocoryne sp, I don't think we have any reason not to trust them.*


			http://aroids.palo-alto.ca.us/crypt/articles/sexton/beech/


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


greenbliss said:


> This link shows a C. Matakensis flowering + developing fruit in what seems to be simply half decomposed leaf litter rather than leaf mould


I'd use the fairly leafy bits as well, rather than just the really decomposed black stuff. If I only had the the fine black mold I'd add some potting bark to it.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Atragene

I appreciate the concerns over using peat but when you experiment you want to eliminate as many variables as possible.
I did collect various beck leaf compost samples and found the ph varied from 4.2 to 6.8 
Many of the articles are written in another language and the translation is often a little dubious


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


Atragene said:


> I appreciate the concerns over using peat but when you experiment you want to eliminate as many variables as possible.


Peat is actually quite variable, the only way to get an entirely consistent product is to use the very white sphagnum peat milled from <"ombrotrophic mires">, and I'm really not suggesting that as sustainable.

If you want an entirely consistent growing medium you would need to use a mineral medium like perlite or rockwool.


Atragene said:


> I did collect various beck leaf compost samples and found the ph varied from 4.2 to 6.8


I might try a single variety "single malt" leaf mold, just Oak (_Quercus_) perhaps?

cheers Darrel


----------



## Wookii

So a quick update. Not a lot to report, not a massive amount of growth. I am getting some greening of the rockwool, and I’m wondering if it is staying too wet and I should reduce the flood frequency. Thoughts?

I also wonder if I’m using too much light?


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


Wookii said:


> I am getting some greening of the rockwool,


I think it is probably inevitable if you have suitable conditions for plant growth.  It is back to the <"_plants you want and the plants you don't__">. _If they hadn't gone green <"I'd be more worried">.


> ... We used to use <"perlite trough culture"> for these experiments, partially because the presence, or absence, and colour of green algae on the perlite surface gives you a good idea about the nutrient status of the pot.



cheers Darrel


----------



## Maf 2500

What is the strength of the nutrient solution you are using @Wookii ? The plants to me look as if it might be too strong for them at this stage of their growth..... maybe...

Whilst I agree with @dw1305 that algae is somewhat inevitable on a wet media with nutrients and light, an excess of nutrients won't be helping there either. When the plants are more grown in they will be both shading the substrate and taking up more nutrients so competing with the algae on two fronts.


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## Wookii

Maf 2500 said:


> What is the strength of the nutrient solution you are using @Wookii ? The plants to me look as if it might be too strong for them at this stage of their growth..... maybe...
> 
> Whilst I agree with @dw1305 that algae is somewhat inevitable on a wet media with nutrients and light, an excess of nutrients won't be helping there either. When the plants are more grown in they will be both shading the substrate and taking up more nutrients so competing with the algae on two fronts.



I’m using the Soulfeed High-K in RO water, dosed at 0.5g per litre which is the foliar feeding dosage. I also add 4ml per litre of Rhiztonic and 20ml of Catappa-X to acidify the water.


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## Sam66

Wookii said:


> I am getting some greening of the rockwool, and I’m wondering if it is staying too wet and I should reduce the flood frequency. Thoughts?


Inevitable unless you cover the surface of the rock wool but it shouldn't really be a problem.  If you want you can prevent it by covering with plastic sheet discs/squares (preferably white) cut with a slit for the plant stem or with light coloured gravel or perlite.


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## Maf 2500

Wookii said:


> I’m using the Soulfeed High-K in RO water, dosed at 0.5g per litre which is the foliar feeding dosage. I also add 4ml per litre of Rhiztonic and 20ml of Catappa-X to acidify the water.


That amount of Solufeed would give you about 0.573mS EC, according to the Solufeed website, which is going to convert to around 350 ish ppm tds. (I am going to ignore the Rhiztonic and Catappa-X for now and assume they are not interacting with the ferts or adding to the tds but I am not familiar with these products.) That is likely to be fine for strongly growing plants but I would be tempted to reduce it to half or less for sensitive young plants such as here. If you have a tds meter you can check the values in your reservoir.

One other thing, look out for signs of calcium deficiency. With the RO water and the Solufeed there is no source of calcium here. Ferts without calcium are designed for situations where the calcium is supplied from the soil (or water source). Hydroponic systems need a source of calcium so I would advise adding some (eg. calcium nitrate) or at least cutting the RO with tap water.


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## greenbliss

Wookii said:


> I also wonder if I’m using too much light?


You can tell by looking at the plants. Cryptocoryne species if blasted with weapons of mass photon destruction tend to lay their leaves more flat and parallel to the substrate. If the lighting is more moderate or too little they might grow more vertical or even almost completely straight up, and the rhizome would also grow vertically searching for light. Yours look like they have enough light, but I don't know if it's too much.  Keep in mind that even around 20 years ago people would induce species that live in full sun in the wild to flower using older types of fluorescent bulb with aroud 11-13 hour photoperiods without many issues. I don't know about the  Bucephalandra though.


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## Wookii

Maf 2500 said:


> That amount of Solufeed would give you about 0.573mS EC, according to the Solufeed website, which is going to convert to around 350 ish ppm tds. (I am going to ignore the Rhiztonic and Catappa-X for now and assume they are not interacting with the ferts or adding to the tds but I am not familiar with these products.) That is likely to be fine for strongly growing plants but I would be tempted to reduce it to half or less for sensitive young plants such as here. If you have a tds meter you can check the values in your reservoir.



Thanks @Maf 2500 , I’ll make up a fresh solution and halve the dose then.

The rockwool is staying quite wet between flooding, should I reduce the frequency down from  the current 4 hourly, or stick with it?



Maf 2500 said:


> One other thing, look out for signs of calcium deficiency. With the RO water and the Solufeed there is no source of calcium here. Ferts without calcium are designed for situations where the calcium is supplied from the soil (or water source). Hydroponic systems need a source of calcium so I would advise adding some (eg. calcium nitrate) or at least cutting the RO with tap water.



Ah, I hadn’t realised that, I had assumed the Solufeed contained everything. 

I have plenty of Calcium Chloride, would that be suitable? How much should I add, i.e. what ppm of Ca should I be aiming for?


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## greenbliss

Wookii said:


> I have plenty of Calcium Chloride, would that be suitable? How much should I add, i.e. what ppm of Ca should I be aiming for?


Calcium Chloride certainly would be good as it would add some Chloride which is also needed by plants. Would it be possible to use Calcium Sulphate and Calcium Chloride (the latter just to add some Chloride)? I think it is somewhat normal to do that in remineraliser recipes.


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## Maf 2500

> Wookii said:
> 
> 
> 
> The rockwool is staying quite wet between flooding, should I reduce the frequency down from the current 4 hourly, or stick with it?
Click to expand...

Rockwool stays wet for ages so you can likely reduce the frequency if you wish or just leave it as is. TBH you could probably get away with twice per 24 hours for young plants. These are aquatic and/or bog plants so they are used to the root zone being totally wet, so it is nothing to worry about and not like terrestial plants that need lots of air around their roots. I think that the leaner you dose the more often you would need to irrigate, just in case the plants were using up the smaller amounts of nutrients between floodings.



Wookii said:


> I have plenty of Calcium Chloride, would that be suitable? How much should I add, i.e. what ppm of Ca should I be aiming for?


As long as there is some I am sure it will be fine, even 1 or 2 dGH will be enough. Maybe aim for the same levels as the intended final destination tank, whatever that is, and considering the magnesium from the ferts also.


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## Wookii

Maf 2500 said:


> As long as there is some I am sure it will be fine, even 1 or 2 dGH will be enough. Maybe aim for the same levels as the intended final destination tank, whatever that is, and considering the magnesium from the ferts also.



Thanks. I have a mixture of powdered CaCL2 and MgSO4 I use to mineralise RO water for my shrimp tank, so can easily add some of that. One scoop of my 'Smidgen' spoon should take the 6 litres the propagator contains to 1dGH.


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## dw1305

Hi all,


Maf 2500 said:


> .......... That amount of Solufeed would give you about 0.573mS EC, according to the Solufeed website, which is going to convert to around 350 ish ppm tds. (I am going to ignore the Rhiztonic and Catappa-X for now and assume they are not interacting with the ferts or adding to the tds but I am not familiar with these products.) That is likely to be fine for strongly growing plants but I would be tempted to reduce it to half or less for sensitive young plants such as here. If you have a tds meter you can check the values in your reservoir........


I think that is good advice.


Maf 2500 said:


> As long as there is some I am sure it will be fine, even 1 or 2 dGH will be enough





Wookii said:


> . One scoop of my 'Smidgen' spoon should take the 6 litres the propagator contains to 1dGH.


Somewhere there, 10 ppm calcium (Ca) should be plenty.

cheers Darrel


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## Konsa

Hi @Wookii 
How is the setup getting on?
Regards Konstantin


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## plantnoobdude

would like to know aswell!


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## Wookii

Konsa said:


> Hi @Wookii
> How is the setup getting on?
> Regards Konstantin





plantnoobdude said:


> would like to know aswell!



Sorry guys, in the middle of moving house, so it’s been a manic few weeks.

The propagator has been a bit of a nightmare. Around two weeks ago I opened up the lid after a week of not checking it, and the plants were crawling with black aphids! Loads of the leaves were wilted.

I took all the pots out and submerged them for 48 hours and skimmed off the hundreds of little b&st&rds.

Unfortunately I reckon I lost about 1/2 the leaves on the plants. 

I also decided to change the lights from the two tubes to an old Fluval Plant 3.0 I had in the garage, set at 60% which is quite a big reduction in light. It’s helped I think as the leaves are more upright, and also the algae on the rockwool has largely gone or significantly reduced.

That combined with the reduction in ferts suggested by @Maf 2500 above seems to have worked quite well. Most plants have put out quite a lot small new leaves now.

To be fair, I reckon if I’d planted these plants in a mature CO2 injected tank, I’d have good sized crypts by now - so the merits of the propagator aren’t looking good currently! 😂 

Anyway here’s an updated photo - though not much progress to look at :


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## Konsa

Hi
Sorry to bother you when you have your hands full with the house move and Im gutted you had aphid infestation too.
My experience with Albida brown and Lutea hobbit is more or less same when I had them in propagator(Strong plants achieved but not much different from grown submerged with good substrate and no runners)
Will continue to follow for how you get on tho and all be best with the house move)
Regards Konstantin


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