# Is it just random luck?



## Sacha (9 Apr 2015)

I paid a visit to Aquatic Design Centre yesterday because I wanted to take photos of an ADA tank there that I've had my eye on for a while.


















It is the best plant growth I have ever seen in a tank, online or otherwise. As you can see from the last picture, Co2 is fed from a single glass diffuser on the side of the tank, and there is _*minimal flow*_ being provided by the filter, from a single small outflow. Most of the water in the tank is not moving at all, basically stagnant. 

This tank used to be maintained by Greg, but now by a different woman called Roxana(?). I had a chat with her about the tank maintenance.

25% of the water is changed weekly (mixture of tap and RO)
Sera Florena fertilisers are dosed daily (micro only)

She had no idea what the Co2 concentration in the tank is, or what wattage the lights provide. I can tell you that the lights above the tank are a photon H-bomb. They are the brightest lights I have ever seen on a tank. I counted approximately 2 bubbles per second through the diffuser.

The KH is kept at 4 and the pH is kept at "a good level".

Phosphates are limited to 1PPM "to prevent algae".

So here it is. Massive light. Low Co2. Low nutrients (no macro ferts). Low flow. Poor water change schedule. Incredible growth. Healthy plants. No algae.

Are we all barking up the wrong tree? What's the secret to the success of this tank?


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## markk (9 Apr 2015)

I suspect the amount of emersed growth is a factor in its success - though I was in ADC a couple of months ago and while I remember that tank, I don't remember any emersed foliage. So it has clearly developed...


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## Sacha (9 Apr 2015)

I go in there regularly and can tell you that it's looked like that for nearly a year now.


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## roadmaster (9 Apr 2015)

Lighting appears fairly high above the tank as well.
Plant's below the surface prolly aren't  being bombarded with too much light, PAR
Plant's above the surface have near unlimited CO2 drawn from atmosphere.


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## Jose (9 Apr 2015)

http://www.barrreport.com/forum/bar...-aqua-forest-and-nice-low-par-values-who-knew

I call it the ADA effect..


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## tigertim (9 Apr 2015)

Sacha said:


> I paid a visit to Aquatic Design Centre yesterday because I wanted to take photos of an ADA tank there that I've had my eye on for a while.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Sacha said:


> Poor water change schedule


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## tigertim (9 Apr 2015)

25% is plenty ..its all i do and have very good plant growth.....also i have high light and just use liquid carbon daily....i have no algae :]


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## Jose (9 Apr 2015)

This is just the way people kept planted tanks before EI came around. Low phosphates limits co2 demand from plants so co2 doesnt need to be ideal. There are other methods based on the same principle like pps pro and basicaLly everything thats not ei(¿?).


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## Sacha (9 Apr 2015)

Jose said:


> Low phosphates limits co2 demand from plants.



How exactly does low phosphate limit the Co2 demand from plants? In particular, what are the _molecular processes _involved in this?


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## Jose (9 Apr 2015)

I dont know. Why?


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## Sacha (9 Apr 2015)

Because you just made a stipulative generalisation with no evidence to support it.


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## Jose (9 Apr 2015)

So you choose to believe its just random luck instead of believeing a theory based on empirical observations by Tom Barr? Its a theory that comes from watching how plants behave during quite a number of years.


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## Sacha (9 Apr 2015)

Please can you show me the 'empirical observations' that lead to the conclusion that limiting phosphates reduces the plant's demand for Co2?


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## Jose (9 Apr 2015)

I dont need to proof anything to a person that doesnt want to learn. ITS all at thebarrreport.com

Empirical; based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic.
Do you know that 100% of the natural sciences starts off with empirical observations. The theory and numbers and fancy stuff comes afterwards.

The info is out there.


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## Sacha (9 Apr 2015)

Jose, frankly your comments on this forum have become laughable. You choose to repeat the same conclusions over and over, with no scientific evidence to support any of it, and when people question the science behind it, your answer is 'I don't need to prove anything to a person that doesn't want to learn'.

I am questioning your conclusions because _I do want to learn_. I have spent the last 3 years of my life engaged in full-time academic research. Studying science is what I do every single day. This is why I am questioning the _empirical basis _of your assumptions.

I have much respect for Tom Barr. However, thebarrreport.com is not a scientific journal. And 'watching how plants behave during quite a number of years' is not a scientific study. It is not an example of empirical research.

I don't think I'm going to engage into discussions with you on this forum anymore, we have seen from the other thread that it leads to a cyclical argument which never reaches any conclusions.

Thanks for your input anyway.


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## Jose (9 Apr 2015)

Perfect!

Just one last thing. If you really want to learn you can try a limitting phosphate approach. Its the only way there is for you to learn.

There is no scientific evidence for any method you apply in a planted tank, but you still apply them.


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## roadmaster (9 Apr 2015)

Maybe by limiting phosphates, plant's perform poorly,and finally die and less CO2 is needed to grow dead plant's
Seriously, limit the phosphates from what % was being used originally?we do not know.
Could be they limit the phosphates for they are seeing that the plant's are getting enough from fish foods /fish waste.


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## roadmaster (9 Apr 2015)

Jose said:


> Perfect!
> 
> Just one last thing. If you really want to learn you can try a limitting phosphate approach. Its the only way there is for you to learn.
> 
> There is no scientific evidence for any method you apply in a planted tank, but you still apply them.



I truly believe there is a science involved with growing aquatic weed's or so many would not struggle .
Me thinks it comes down to whose science you choose to accept while trying your hand at it.
I find I am never as surprised by that which I do not know,as I am by that which I thought I DID know.


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## nayr88 (9 Apr 2015)

Play nice children    haha

Good to have a debate but it is always good to refer your beliefs back to the original source and I have not been into the barrreort ever...(that I recall) so don't know how strict the testing is on the idea of limiting particular nutrients with a positive outcome and less co2 intake. 

I have too seen the tank in question and a number of tanks in there and I call witchcraft!!! They are beautiful. Extremely healthy plants and very well executed . I haven't been in some time, how is the tank stocked?

Lastly...is Gregg still there? I start a new job in the city and am looking forward to showing my face in there again very soon  


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## Sacha (9 Apr 2015)

The tank is the ADA tank downstairs, it's moderately stocked with cardinal tetras.

Here is another example of an ADA tank they have upstairs.













Beautiful carpet, very healthy plants, and loads of pearling.

An in-tank glass diffuser with Co2 bubbles going straight to the surface of the water and then disappearing. A single outflow at the opposite end of the tank.

Tank is right next to a window, getting loads of sunlight in addition to the strong lights on the tank itself, and no algae to be seen anywhere.

What I find most ridiculous is how the Co2 bubbles go straight to the surface of the water.


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## alto (9 Apr 2015)

somewhere you should be able to find exchange rates for CO2 gas microbubbles (relative surface area to volume is everything) in water with various dissolved CO2 concentrations - if you're attached to a university, appreciate the open access journal opportunities  

I have a 90 x 45 x 50 cm tank with an Eheim reported flowrate of ~950l/h (filled with all the supplied media), a Tropica CO2 diffuser - bubbles travel a bit but rise pretty quick to the surface (various degrees of agitation from the spray bar which is situated on the (short) LF side of the tank, while the intake is on the (short) RH side) & I can still (almost) gas those fish within 30min 
Sadly my tank looks nothing like those pictured


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## NC10 (9 Apr 2015)

Why doesn't my Mrs look like Kate Beckinsale, bought her the same dress and everything 

Stop comparing yourself (if you are) to shops or manufacturers trying to sell you a product. There are are plenty of ways to overcome any problems when people are employed just to do that job. Whatever Co2 is being dissolved is obviously enough to keep most of the plants happy and not kill the fish. It's a shop, they don't really care how much they waste, it's neglible in the grand scheme of things. Totally different to a layman buying everything out of his own hard earned.

I'm guessing they're glass inlets and outlets, not Eheim  .....they're slacking


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## limz_777 (9 Apr 2015)

cant be water stagnant , i can see ripple on the surface , perhaps more dead spots due to the hardscape .


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## ADA (10 Apr 2015)

Have you been to the green machine? I went up a few weeks back and their tanks are all the same, low flow, CO2 going straight to the surface, and awesome growth.

It's due to the fact that the tank is so mature and with ADA filters they never lose flow rate so small amount of flow that gets round nearly all the tank works well. As for CO2 bubbles going straight up to the surface, so long as there's enough dissolving into the water where the rest goes doesn't matter .


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## GreenNeedle (10 Apr 2015)

TBH it might just be the pictures at the beginning of the thread but the light doesn't look very high to me.  YEs looking at the light they may look really bright but in the tank it looks pretty dark to me.  Like I say it might just be the pictures.


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## sonicninja (10 Apr 2015)

There's another tank near the till of ADC. It's fabulous and every time I see it i can't help but wonder what the hell I was doing wrong with my tank. I know we shouldn't really compare one tank to another but frankly it's hard. 
Again this tank has a glass diffuser sat relatively high in the tank, moderate-high lighting (in my opinion) and  low flow from an external filter via a single outflow. The growth and health on this tank is insane!
I'd often go back to my own tank with elaborate spray bar configuration and CO2 high enough to make the water look like lemonade and wonder why I had to go to such lengths. 
I reckon they have some sort of cyber-hydro future machine that makes everything syncro-fertilize. That's science. 


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## luckyjim (10 Apr 2015)

The opinion from a pure amateur here but I think NC10 gets closest to the truth when he said "the shop doesn't care how much they waste" (although obviously there are limits!).

Have you ever noticed how many staff they have at the ADC? There are loads of them. The last two times I have popped by, I have seen one of the staff cleaning the ADA mini cube gardens in the window. I wouldn't be surprised if they get multiple cleanings per day. I'm sure most people could maintain spotless tanks if they were essentially a full-time caretaker!

The shop gets wholesale rates and I imagine their turnover / revenue is huge, squandering CO2  for example does not matter to them. They do not need to be particularly efficient, just generate sales using idealised tanks.

I am not saying that the staff / management there are not very well accomplished and excellent aquarists. And they probably do have a few secret tricks as well. Just that we are comparing a tank being kept by hobbyist who is usually on a budget holding down a full time job and looking after their family , and a tank being kept by a caretaker who is paid to keep it spotless 10 hours a day, with almost unlimited resources at their disposal!


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## alto (10 Apr 2015)

Tank 1


> It is the best plant growth I have ever seen in a tank, online or otherwise. As you can see from the last picture, Co2 is fed from a single glass diffuser on the side of the tank, and there is _*minimal flow*_ being provided by the filter, from a single small outflow. Most of the water in the tank is not moving at all, basically stagnant.
> 
> This tank used to be maintained by Greg, but now by a different woman called Roxana(?). I had a chat with her about the tank maintenance.
> 
> ...



Tank 2


> An in-tank glass diffuser with Co2 bubbles going straight to the surface of the water and then disappearing. A single outflow at the opposite end of the tank.
> Tank is right next to a window, getting loads of sunlight in addition to the strong lights on the tank itself, and no algae to be seen anywhere



Tank 3


> Again this tank has a glass diffuser sat relatively high in the tank, moderate-high lighting (in my opinion) and low flow from an external filter via a single outflow.



From these descriptions it doesn't sound as if the shop is "squandering" CO2 or other resources on these tanks


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## luckyjim (10 Apr 2015)

Well, they are probably achieving quite good CO2 dissolution by simply blasting in microbubbles through a glass diffuser, most of which are going to waste. Pretty inefficient, not ideal for a hobbyist, but easy to maintain and unobtrusive for a shop display. They presumably get wholesale price CO2 refills delivered regularly to their door. Also presumably they have plenty of spare diffusers that can be circulated for cleaning, again not necessarily ideal for a hobbyist and a big downside of using these devices.

Also, in general, they have everything they need cheap and to hand. Need to dose something in particular, even if it is obscure? Takes 2 minutes to go and grab it from the storage cupboard out the back, and only costs wholesale price to use. For a hobbyist, that might mean waiting till you can get to the LFS at the weekend (or waiting for delivery for online order) and having to buy a set quantity (i.e. more than you need) at retail prices. Shops will get big economies of scale on almost everything.

Personally, one of the difficult things I have found starting out in this hobby is the constant need to keep acquiring usually insignificant things, which cost pennies but add up and are a hassle to organise. E.g. a single suction cup with hosing clip to keep an outlet pipe in the proper position. Little bit of mesh to attach some moss to. etc etc.


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## luckyjim (10 Apr 2015)

btw does anyone know what size ADA tank the big nice one downstairs with the emersed growth is?


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## nayr88 (10 Apr 2015)

Sorry to go off subject 

@luckyjim

I hear you when you say about all those hugs adding up. I mean there are simpler ways of doing things. Get yourself do pets at home most of not all there plants are of the easier to grow variety, use earth capped in gravel and have a small pump with no media for circulation on a very very low setting. Put a desk lamp by it. A beta would love it  feed live foods and pellets. Yourl have the odd break out or problem but there really cool tanks.

A guy in here called Louis aka ghostsword was excellent at changing things that where meant for one hobby or just odd bits and peices and making them useful and at a fraction of the cost. One thing I remember was when hanging baskets inside tanks where the rage and they cost a little bit from the aquarist sites, Louis used this pot he found in a pound store that had suction slips on and did the exact same job haha but for a pound!! Just keep your eyes peeled and yourl find your bargains trust me 


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## luckyjim (10 Apr 2015)

To be honest, I enjoy the challenge of trying the more advanced stuff, as I'm sure do most of us. I have a simple little low tech nano which I love, but if that were my only tank it would not be very exciting or challenging.

My point was more it is a pain when you just need little bits. For me that is compounded because I live in a rented flat and so I don't even have proper tools / shed / DIYable components. If I need a screw or a washer for some minor thing I have to go out and buy it! 

Not so much of a problem for people living in proper family homes. Even easier when you have a full range of specialist stuff easily to hand like in a proper planted aquarium shop!


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## Tim Harrison (10 Apr 2015)

Just had a skim read of this thread so if it's been said already ignore me...but plant mass is the key - not just emergent either.
IME once plant growth reaches a critical mass the tank becomes unbelievably biologically stable.
Tulgey Wood (high-energy) has been torn down now but toward the end of it's life it went months without a water change, and I didn't really pay much attention to CO2 either, and I only chucked in fertz when I remembered.
But by this stage it'd long since become almost choked with plants - flow must have been minimal - but it was one of the most healthy, algae free tanks I've ever run.

Edit:
So back to the OP...no it's not just random luck...it's plants - lots of them IME and also judging by the scape in question.


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## alto (10 Apr 2015)

I'm with Troi (btw Tulgey Wood was fantastic) - if you watch the Tropica set up videos (look at the pdf list of plant types & amounts ) or look at ADA set ups, they are very heavily planted from the start, I suspect that algae crew also go in on the Tropica tanks (Amano puts in masses of "amano" shrimps & a good # of otos).


Perhaps the shop in this discussion invests $$$$ into the display tanks, but my lfs is very budget conscious with the display tanks (as they can end up very expensive).

I still maintain that a CO2 rate of maybe "2bps" is not blasting in the CO2.


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## Crossocheilus (10 Apr 2015)

Troi said:


> IME once plant growth reaches a critical mass the tank becomes unbelievably biologically stable.



Meaning basically no ammonia/nitrite, I assume, but surely plants can still have fert/CO2/light issues, especially as demand increases but CO2 remains the same (and seemingly low in this case). So even with negligible organics and high plant mass, plant health can be poor and ferts high -> causing algae?

You certainly have more experience than me and I am yet to reach anywhere near that sort of plant mass in my tank but theoretically...?


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## stu_ (10 Apr 2015)

They can't clean it that often,look at the state of that diffuser


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## Mick.Dk (10 Apr 2015)

alto said:


> I'm with Troi (btw Tulgey Wood was fantastic) - if you watch the Tropica set up videos (look at the pdf list of plant types & amounts ) or look at ADA set ups, they are very heavily planted from the start, I suspect that algae crew also go in on the Tropica tanks (Amano puts in masses of "amano" shrimps & a good # of otos)).


- you are right. Algae-crew goes in Tropica tanks as soon as possible after set-up ( usually ramshorns, otocinclus, cherries and amanoes in various numbers).


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## Tim Harrison (10 Apr 2015)

Crossocheilus said:


> Meaning basically no ammonia/nitrite, I assume, but surely plants can still have fert/CO2/light issues, especially as demand increases but CO2 remains the same (and seemingly low in this case). So even with negligible organics and high plant mass, plant health can be poor and ferts high -> causing algae?
> 
> You certainly have more experience than me and I am yet to reach anywhere near that sort of plant mass in my tank but theoretically...?



I think that perhaps my parameters were relatively stable despite my neglect and more than adequate for high density plant mass from the very beginning. 
But either way I always advocate healthy neglect...so often I think that there is a tendency to over manage our tanks in to problems.
Tho' high plant mass has the potential to soak up mistakes such as too much light and subsequent CO2, flow and distribution imbalances...for instance.


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## jeff5614 (10 Apr 2015)

Sacha said:


> How exactly does low phosphate limit the Co2 demand from plants? In particular, what are the _molecular processes _involved in this?


It's no secret that phosphorous levels affect photosynthesis. You can find this information easily online. If PO4 is lacking, and thereby limiting photosynthesis, then it only follows that other nutrients including the carbon in CO2 would be needed in lesser quantities than when photosynthesis is occurring at a higher rate.


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## Tim Harrison (10 Apr 2015)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebig's_law_of_the_minimum


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## nayr88 (11 Apr 2015)

Ok so the idea is that is you need A B and C to grow taller. If A and B are in surplus but C is scarce you will still grow but just at a slower rate.

The problem being that when we look at that with our tanks we are led to believe that if
A is light 
B is carbon
C are fertilisers 

That will would have an algae bloom(specific to low C) 

And it's evident there's no visible algae in these tanks that are lacking.

We are clear the tanks appear to have high light (we haven't taken Par readings) 
We also don't know if the co2 is timed or constantly pumping away. Meaning anything more than 1bps 24hrs a day is fairly high. 

We have established the tank is a long standing one so really it makes sense.

The co2 could well be high
The light may have high lux but low par values
The fertilisers are just about enough 
Meaning growth is slow but balanced* (very little agae, none or very little visible plant health deficiency)

A 'back burner tank' if you will haha. 
With there skill and understanding striking a balance isn't going to be hard these guys are very good at what they do. 

I'm not saying this as if I'm dead certain I'm just chucking something into the mix. 




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## limz_777 (11 Apr 2015)

stu_ said:


> They can't clean it that often,look at the state of that diffuser



sharp eye ,lol, i notice that as well


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## Andy Thurston (11 Apr 2015)

Sacha said:


> The tank is the ADA tank downstairs, it's moderately stocked with cardinal tetras.
> 
> Here is another example of an ADA tank they have upstairs.
> 
> ...


except for the filter pipes


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## Jose (11 Apr 2015)

nayr88 said:


> Ok so the idea is that is you need A B and C to grow taller. If A and B are in surplus but C is scarce you will still grow but just at a slower rate.
> The problem being that when we look at that with our tanks we are led to believe that if
> A is light
> B is carbon
> ...




Phosphate limitation is one of the best in order to not get algae due to low nutrients. If you run out of phosphates totally you will get green spot algae. So people normally tweak things in order to limit phosphates but not too much. 
ADA soils also help because they contain/adsorb P which is there for the plant but not in the water column.
So, If you were to limit Nitrates then youd probably get worse results than with phosphates. Do too low nutrients cause algae in all cases? Yes but soils and different things play a role on this and this is why sometimes people get to false assumptions (they dont look at the whole picture). There is nutrients leaching out from soil, organic matter etc. And we cant really measure those nutrients very well can we? so we don know what there is in reality.


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## Jaybles (14 Apr 2015)

Thanks for posting this, Sacha. It's a very interesting thread and the tank in the OP is amazing.


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## roadmaster (12 May 2015)

How did "we" determine that there was high light from the photo's with no PAR values mentioned?
As I stated previously in this thread, the lighting appear's to be rather high above the tank, so maybe not high light at all =less CO2 needed.
Also with regards to CO2 ,maybe they also used EXCEL.Glut,Metricide in addition to the gas?


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## Jose (12 May 2015)

roadmaster said:


> How did "we" determine that there was high light from the photo's with no PAR values mentioned?
> As I stated previously in this thread, the lighting appear's to be rather high above the tank, so maybe not high light at all =less CO2 needed.
> Also with regards to CO2 ,maybe they also used EXCEL.Glut,Metricide in addition to the gas?



Because its bright.


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