# Tropica Specialised causing Nitrite spikes - false positive or genuine concern??



## LCB1990 (2 Apr 2021)

Hi,

A couple of weeks ago I posted in the plant help section regarding poor growth across a number of plants, upon giving my water parameters it was likely that low nitrates (<10ppm) were the likely and logical reason behind this. To remedy and increase the nitrate levels in the tank I purchased Tropica Specialised liquid fertiliser (the green one) which contains the additional nitrogen.

Yesterday I did a water test out of interest to see if the nitrate level had increased, i've been using the fertiliser at half-dose strength before i would move on  up to full doses. When I've done the test I've found the following results:

Ammonia - 0ppm
Nitrite - 1-2ppm
Nitrate - 10-15ppm

I've never had an issue with Nitrite levels before, its always been 0ppm, my question is - is the liquid fertiliser directly causing these nitrite spikes due to additional nitrogen being added (I though the nitrogen was in the form of a nitrate salt??) or is there an ingredient/compound in the liquid fertiliser which effectively gives a false positive with the test kit? 

In terms of the fish behaviour, they seem fine, no gasping for breath, acting as they always do - if I hadn't done the test yesterday out of curiosity, I would have had no idea of the apparent nitrite spike.

Thanks,
Lewis


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## John q (2 Apr 2021)

Would appear it can raise nitrite levels.   @Zeus. Knows more about this but there's an explanation in this thread about it Does dosing with nitrogen raise nitrates?


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## sparkyweasel (2 Apr 2021)

LCB1990 said:


> In terms of the fish behaviour, they seem fine, no gasping for breath, acting as they always do


That's the important thing. 
We have a few threads discussing test kits, which certainly can give misleading results for various reasons.
One is;
Test kits


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## Zeus. (2 Apr 2021)

LCB1990 said:


> Tropica Specialised liquid fertiliser (the green one) which contains the additional nitrogen.



Which based upon the data analysis provided by Tropica can only be cloned if you use Urea or amomum salts to get the same [N],[P] & [K] as Tropica do, if you use KNO3 the K levels do not match what Tropica provide in their data.
So if you use Urea/ammonium salts  as a source of nitrogen the bacteria convert it to Nitr*i*tes (NO2) then to Nitr*a*tes (NO3), hence the reason why your seeing an increase in the NO2 levels. Urea/ammonium salts and NO2 can be harmful to the livestock in your tank so care must be taken when using dosing them (little and often). It is safer to use a KNO3 based fertiliser like TNC complete which based on its data analysis strongly suggests they use KNO3 in its manufacture, which can then be dosed less often in larger doses.
In a well planted mature planted tank the risks of using Urea/ammonium salts are less as the mature bacteria in the tank handle the salts conversation to NO3 faster, but little and often seems to be the key.
As for testing I see no need to waste money as @sparkyweasel pointed out, false positives and false negatives benefit nobody except the sellers and manufactures of the products.


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## LCB1990 (3 Apr 2021)

Thanks all three of you, thats really helpful. I'll drop the dosing down a bit further with a view to more frequent dosing, like I said, from a fish behaviour point of view I wouldn't have thought anything was 'wrong' and I don't want to get into the habit of chasing water chemistry numbers from a test kit - if it looks OK my assumption is, in the main, the tank is probably OK too.

Thanks again for your help


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## BakerJ (20 May 2021)

I've had the exact same experience as of late. Fully cycled tank and about a month ago I tested positive for Nitrite after dosing. Experimented a bit before and after dosing and only measured nitrite after dosing. A month after this occured I did the same test today, same results.

My three pumps a day I will spread out more evenly for the time being. Will switch to a different KNO3 based fertiliser when I am running low on Specialised Nutrition. Any other recommendations besides TNC Complete?


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## Zeus. (20 May 2021)

BakerJ said:


> I've had the exact same experience as of late. Fully cycled tank and about a month ago I tested positive for Nitrite after dosing



Which is to be expected with TSN and a mature tank, TSN is a ammonium based fert so after dosing it in a mature tank will convert the NH3 to NO2 then NO3 so there is going to be a peak on the [NO2]
Does you tank have any issues like algae or fish disease or fish in distress ? if the answer is NO   why are you testing for nitrites, testing for your result cold be a false positive and hobby grade test kits only benefit the folk who sell them eg profit.
Trust you instinct and if all looks well and plants are lush - happy days.


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## BakerJ (20 May 2021)

Yes the tank has some algae issues and I've had some fish in distress. So testing is relevant. And I think your logic is wrong Zeus, even if there where no fish in distress or algae problems, having a dangerous amount of nitrites caused by ferts is worth the discussion. 

If your statement is right about fully cycled tanks always converting TSN to nitrites, every tank owner using TSN has some nitrite build up during the day?


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## dw1305 (21 May 2021)

Hi all, 


BakerJ said:


> fully cycled tanks always converting TSN to nitrites, every tank owner using TSN has some nitrite build up during the day?


Possibly, but there are still quite a few variables. 

Plant biomass will be important, and particularly the volume of <"fast growing floating plants">, plants which aren't CO2 limited.
Plant growth may be limited by PAR.
Nitrification may be limited by <"dissolved oxygen levels">.
Plant growth may be limited by the levels of any of the <"fourteen mineral nutrients"> required for plant growth.  
You could have high level of <"COMAMMOX _Nitrospira_">_,_ that can directly convert ammonia (NH3/NH4+) to nitrate (NO3)
cheers Darrel


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## Zeus. (21 May 2021)

BakerJ said:


> I've had some fish in distress


Then stop dosing TSN or reduce the dose, Double 50% Water Change (WC). A Full Tank Pic would be helpful and specs for tank, also how much you feeding your fish and type of fish (which pic will show). 
Testing for anything in a tank has it pitfalls, which is where EI dosing and regular WC's was born to save on fruitless expensive testing and more confusion. Dose in abundance and reg WCs. Using an ammonium based fert carries a risk which is why many folk use NO3 based ferts.

I am doing a little casual experiment ATM using urea prills as a source of nitrogen, and using the little and often dosing with tanks being dosed small amounts up to 100 times a week- so my peaks are more little blips, however if you dose 7 times a week you blips will be over ten times higher for the same weekly dose- the joys of automation


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## Kushal Bhattacharjee (4 May 2022)

BakerJ said:


> Yes the tank has some algae issues and I've had some fish in distress. So testing is relevant. And I think your logic is wrong Zeus, even if there where no fish in distress or algae problems, having a dangerous amount of nitrites caused by ferts is worth the discussion.
> 
> If your statement is right about fully cycled tanks always converting TSN to nitrites, every tank owner using TSN has some nitrite build up during the day?


Totally agree with you mate, I think that TSN does have Nitrogen in ammonium form but it could be in the form of some complex compound ....since ammonium ion breaks down into ammonia in an aqueous solution , so it's very unlikely that Tropica purposely uses ammonium salts in their normal form  eg:-ammonium chloride, ammonium nitrate, etc. Tropica perhaps uses ammonium in a complex compound form to prevent the formation of  toxic ammonia. The nitrites must have been due to the small colony of beneficial bacteria failing to convert poop and decaying foods and other stuffs. Very less wastes lead to death of bacteria because they don't have enough food(ammonia,nitrites) ....so u need to feed the bacterial colony at times, u may use ada green bacter plus or other reputed products as their food supplement. Had there been ammonium salts in TSN, the fishes would have perished in the tanks which are dosed in EI method (George Farmer himself doses in EI method with TSN) . Tropica has over 50 years of experience in plant growing methods so they are very much aware of what they are up to ❤️ . Hope this helps mate 😊.


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## Hufsa (4 May 2022)

Kushal Bhattacharjee said:


> so it's very unlikely that Tropica purposely uses ammonium salts in their normal form  eg:-ammonium chloride, ammonium nitrate, etc. ... Had there been ammonium salts in TSN, the fishes would have perished in the tanks which are dosed in EI method


We discussed TSN a little while ago and someone contacted Tropica directly.
They confirm a roughly 50/50 split of ammoniacal nitrogen and nitrate nitrogen.
It was therefore concluded that TSN uses ammonium nitrate as its nitrogen source.






I think it is possible that the danger of ammonia (and Urea) based fertilizers have been somewhat overstated for some years in the hobby. Its good to always have the fishes safety in mind when choosing a fertilizer, but it would seem with a sensible dosing regime and a sufficiently planted tank the danger is fairly minimal, otherwise TSN would not sell as well as it does.


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## Kushal Bhattacharjee (4 May 2022)

Hufsa said:


> We discussed TSN a little while ago and someone contacted Tropica directly.
> They confirm a roughly 50/50 split of ammoniacal nitrogen and nitrate nitrogen.
> It was therefore concluded that TSN uses ammonium nitrate as its nitrogen source.
> 
> ...


The ammonium nitrate must be in complex form.... roughly 0.65% ammoniacal nitrogen per gram is not safe in radical form.... they must be attached to some other elements thus preventing the formation of free ammonium ions.


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## tam (4 May 2022)

I can't help with the science, but I've been doing a 50l low tech tank, with approx. 2ml per day for the last 2 weeks - slightly over double the bottle dose. Which has successfully raised my nitrate from 0 to around 10-15ppm but still showing 0 Nitrite. Admittedly those numbers are from a dip stick test, which are less accurate, but I'd expect enough to show present/not present.


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## dw1305 (4 May 2022)

Hi all,


Hufsa said:


> We discussed TSN a little while ago and someone contacted Tropica directly. They confirm a roughly 50/50 split of ammoniacal nitrogen and nitrate nitrogen.  It was therefore concluded that TSN uses ammonium nitrate as its nitrogen source.
> 
> I think it is possible that the danger of ammonia (and Urea) based fertilizers have been somewhat overstated for some years in the hobby. Its good to always have the fishes safety in mind when choosing a fertilizer, but it would seem with a sensible dosing regime and a sufficiently planted tank the danger is fairly minimal, otherwise TSN would not sell as well as it does.





Kushal Bhattacharjee said:


> The ammonium nitrate must be in complex form.... roughly 0.65% ammoniacal nitrogen per gram is not safe in radical form.... they must be attached to some other elements thus preventing the formation of free ammonium ions.


This is a debate we've been <"having for a long time">.  There definitely are <"risks involved">. In terms of ammonium nitrate (NH4NO3) solubility, most monovalent ions are <"highly soluble">, so you will get a pretty much instant dissolution into NO3- and <"NH3 / NH4+">.

cheers Darrel


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## MichaelJ (5 May 2022)

Being an NH4NO3 user myself with Tropica Specialized, you definitely do not want to target EI levels of N using NH4NO3! (not necessary anyway...) Also, if you use NH4NO3 your water should preferably be somewhat acidic (pH <6.8).

Cheers,
Michael


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## plantnoobdude (5 May 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> Being an NH4NO3 user myself with Tropica Specialized, you definitely do not want to target EI levels of N using NH4NO3! (not necessary anyway...) Also, if you use NH4NO3 your water should preferably be somewhat acidic (pH <6.8).
> 
> Cheers,
> Michael


same here dosing nh4no3.


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## tam (5 May 2022)

So are there specific benefits to it - why have they picked that instead of KN03 as their base? If you were picking between TSN and TNC what would the criteria be?

Is it something that the tank is going to adjust to over time too e.g. is it just a case of ramping up slowly so the plants adjust to the uptake and the filter starts taking care of any excessive to the current biomasses use?


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## Hufsa (5 May 2022)

tam said:


> So are there specific benefits to it - why have they picked that instead of KN03 as their base?



It seems that plants prefer to uptake nitrogen in ammoniacal form, from what I understand it is more energy efficient for them since otherwise they would have to convert nitrate to more preferred form internally. However, too much will be toxic to plants as well as livestock, so anyone using this must take great care to strike a good balance. One should consider their tank plant mass, many hungry plants will be safer than a lightly planted tank for example. One should also consider the PH of their tank as use of ammoniacal nitrogen will be safer in low PH ranges than the higher levels. I think biological maturity of the tank itself can also be a factor.



tam said:


> Is it something that the tank is going to adjust to over time too e.g. is it just a case of ramping up slowly so the plants adjust to the uptake and the filter starts taking care of any excessive to the current biomasses use?


I would say yes, make sure one has considered the factors I listed above and then if one is determined to try it, start very low and work your way up gradually.

We should also consider that tanks fed with Urea or ammonia will be more sensitive to trimming. For example, if you do a really hard trim and remove 50% of your plant mass, your previous dose of fertilizer might be too much for the system, and you should think about reducing it for a time until the plants have regrown.

Maybe my post seems strange, but I try to be aware that the people participating in a discussion are not the only ones present, often there is a large amount of readers who do not post but none the less are receiving the information we share. That is why I am underlining the caution that is required if one wants to try these forms of nitrogen.
For beginners it will be much safer to stay with a premade fertilizer (even Tropica's Specialized, just maybe not dosed at EI levels), or if making their own fertilizer start with KNO3 / nitrate first.


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## tam (5 May 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Maybe my post seems strange, but I try to be aware that the people participating in a discussion are not the only ones present, often there is a large amount of readers who do not post but none the less are receiving the information we share. That is why I am underlining the caution that is required if one wants to try these forms of nitrogen.
> For beginners it will be much safer to stay with a premade fertilizer (even Tropica's Specialized, just maybe not dosed at EI levels), or if making their own fertilizer start with KNO3 / nitrate first.


Very helpful thank you. I'm one of those that's often reading old posts or google searching and reading other forums on a topic so I very much appreciate your way of writing.


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## Zeus. (5 May 2022)

tam said:


> s it something that the tank is going to adjust to over time too


The increasing the dosing frequency was my solution when using urea, little and often. With using a PLC for a timer for DIY doser I was able to dose my urea based AIO fert 100 times a week ( few drops every 12mins). On ther tank was still dosing Macros and Micros so dosed every couple of hours macros then Micros. Which should IMO/IME prevent the spikes/peaks in 'NH4/NO2' levels.
Only down side of little and often is the end of dosing pipe needed more regular cleaning as the fert being dosed tended to ppt out a little on end of pipe


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## dw1305 (5 May 2022)

Hi all,


Hufsa said:


> It seems that plants prefer to uptake nitrogen in ammoniacal form, from what I understand it is more energy efficient for them since otherwise they would have to convert nitrate to more preferred form internally. However, too much will be toxic to plants as well as livestock, so anyone using this must take great care to strike a good balance. One should consider their tank plant mass, many hungry plants will be safer than a lightly planted tank for example. One should also consider the PH of their tank as use of ammoniacal nitrogen will be safer in low PH ranges than the higher levels. I think biological maturity of the tank itself can also be a factor.


I think that is a good summary and personally I'd be very wary of dosing ammonium nitrate (NH3NO4) containing fertilisers in anything other than very weak doses (see @Zeus.'s post <"above">). The advantage of NH4NO3 would be that you only add nitrogen (N ~ 33%), from both the anion (NO3-) and <"the TAN">.

I think urea (CO(NH2)2) is safer as a nitrogen source (N ~ 46%), although we still have <"some uncertainty"> about the rate of conversion to NH3 / NH4+.

Other options would be available,  I'm just about to start using <"Solufeed 2 : 1 :4"> (composition below)






cheers Darrel


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## John q (5 May 2022)

tam said:


> So are there specific benefits to it - why have they picked that instead of KN03


Because its cheaper is the simple answer. Maybe plants uptake ureasa, ammonia, dung beetles anal glands...  more efficiently, maybe they don't... don't believe the bullshit that kno3 won't produce healthy plants... it will.


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## Hufsa (5 May 2022)

John q said:


> ... don't believe the bullshit that kno3 won't produce healthy plants... it will.


Who said this?


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## John q (5 May 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Who said this?


Sorry mate, should probably correct myself. Just seems to be a lot of love for nh4 atm & a lot of hate for kno3...  mea culpa 😁


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## Hufsa (5 May 2022)

John q said:


> & a lot of hate for kno3...


Again where? 🤔
All ive seen is a fairly nuanced discussion where we talk about some benefits and some dangers around using ammonia.
That doesn't mean NO3 is useless or no good?


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## John q (5 May 2022)

Hufsa said:


> think it is possible that the danger of ammonia (and Urea) based fertilizers have been somewhat overstated for some years





Hufsa said:


> It seems that plants prefer to uptake nitrogen in ammoniacal form,





Hufsa said:


> otherwise they would have to convert nitrate





Hufsa said:


> All ive seen is a fairly nuanced discussion where we talk about some benefits and some dangers around using ammonia


For the newbies reading this the take home will be ammonia Is more beneficial than kno3, which in my opinion is wrong.  

Willing to accept my kno3 hatred slur suggestion is also wrong, you never said that. 👍


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## dw1305 (5 May 2022)

Hi all, 


John q said:


> For the newbies reading this the take home will be ammonia Is more beneficial than kno3


I'd agree, that is a real danger and  nitrates (NO3-) are a <"much safer option">. 

cheers Darrel


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## plantnoobdude (5 May 2022)

No3 is definitely the safer option. but no3 is definitely not more beneficial to plants than nh4.


			https://koiorganisationinternational.org/sites/default/files/Plants%20verses%20Filters.pdf
		

the majority of aquatic plants show a preference to nh4 over no3.


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## John q (5 May 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> No3 is definitely the safer option. but no3 is definitely not more beneficial to plants than nh4


Agreed, and beautiful aquascapes/ healthy plants can be accomplished with or without nh4. 😀


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## erwin123 (6 May 2022)

*versus*









						How to grow Ludwigia senegalensis
					

Ludwigia senegalensis comes from African where it is widespread. It first entered the hobby under the name Ludwigia 'Guinea', and has since become popular in the hobby due to its distinctive red leaves. It is a small sized stem plant with reddish leaves that have a distinct red web pattern when...




					www.2hraquarist.com
				




I'm always on the lookout for aquascapers who have journals and the same plants as me, as I'm always looking for advice on how to grow the plants better. One of the plants I want to grow better is Ludwigia senegalensis and as the photo shows, mine are a far cry from what 2hr aquarist achieves. In the 2hr aquarist link, Ammonia is specifically mentioned. 

Therefore, I've begun an experiment and have started to dose both APTI EI (0.7m daily) AND TSN (0.4ml daily) to see whether small amounts of ammoniacal nitrogen in the water column will do anything for the Ludwigia.  I have no vested interested in Tropica ferts and I'll just post a comparison photo maybe in 1 months' time, and readers can judge if there is any improvement. (Unfortunately,  my lighting levels cannot match what Dennis can achieve with his 8x T5 setup.... and I wonder how much high light plays a part...)


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## MichaelJ (6 May 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'd agree, that is a real danger and  nitrates (NO3-) are a <"much safer option">.
> 
> cheers Darrel



This is honestly not the hill I want to die on, but realistically if your running a reasonably densely planted aquarium, the amount of NH4 some of us are suggesting you dose are nowhere near toxic levels - even at at elevated (>7) pH levels. I would submit that we have more fellow hobbyists adding more toxins to their tanks while following  mainstream fertilizer methodologies than the ones amongst us that are dosing "lean" and compounds containing NH4.  I am not a CO2 user, but I would suggest that the chance of someone having a flawed regulator or valve (or deliberately running CO2 at excess levels)  killing their fish from CO2 asphyxiation is much bigger than someone accidentally dropping a bottle of Tropica Specialized into their tank... or introducing fish too early in a tank with super enriched substrate leaching NH4... Let's keep the conversation real. NH4 is a part of all amazonian habitats in levels we wouldn't even  consider _that _safe...

Cheers,
Michael


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## dw1305 (6 May 2022)

Hi all, 


MichaelJ said:


> This is honestly not the hill I want to die on, but realistically if your running a reasonably densely planted aquarium, the amount of NH4 some of us are suggesting you dose are nowhere near toxic levels - even at at elevated (>7) pH levels.


I'm not going to argue with that, I'm still <"using a fertiliser mix"> with <"some ammonia in it">. 


MichaelJ said:


> I am not a CO2 user, but I would suggest that the chance of someone having a flawed regulator or valve (or deliberately running CO2 at excess levels) killing their fish from CO2 asphyxiation is much bigger than someone accidentally dropping a bottle of Tropica Specialized into their tank...


I'd agree, I'm not, (<"nor ever will be">), a CO2  user either. 


MichaelJ said:


> or introducing fish too early in a tank with super enriched substrate leaching NH4..


<"Same again"> and point taken, there are a lot of other risk factors, many of them <"more serious">. 

cheers Darrel


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## Hufsa (6 May 2022)

I would like to amend a few of my statements



Hufsa said:


> It was therefore concluded that TSN uses ammonium nitrate as its nitrogen source.


Its also possible that they use a combination of Urea, Ammonium Nitrate and Potassium Nitrate, however, the portion of Potassium Nitrate cannot be very high, because then they would not be able to have the low K (potassium) level that they do.

Interestingly, even if they use Urea in their fertilizer, Urea does not last forever in solution from what I understand, but breaks down into ammonia/ammonium over time.
If so then a brand new bottle of TSN will be slightly different to an old bottle of TSN. I wonder if this can account for the different reports from user who have tested their bottle of TSN for ammonia, where some get a very clear reading and some do not.



Hufsa said:


> It seems that plants prefer to uptake nitrogen in ammoniacal form, from what I understand it is more energy efficient for them since otherwise they would have to convert nitrate to more preferred form internally.


So this is not entirely accurate, some plants prefer ammonium and some prefer nitrate. Exactly what the ratio is between our commonly kept species, or which prefers this and that is so far not known I think?
The list from Walstad includes mostly "old fashioned" aquarium plants and not so many of those species we keep nowadays, so that the majority of her list prefers ammonia might or might not indicate what the majority preference could be for our plants.

I think its likely that a combination of nitrate nitrogen and ammoniacal nitrogen could be a good compromise for a fertilizer.
Id like to test that out in my tank once my current "experiments" are done 😃


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## dw1305 (6 May 2022)

Hi all, 


Hufsa said:


> ........ So this is not entirely accurate, some plants prefer ammonium and some prefer nitrate. Exactly what the ratio is between our commonly kept species, or which prefers this and that is so far not known I think?.......


We have a <"thread">. From a personal point of view I'm not convinced that the form that you supply fixed nitrogen in really matters. 


> _....... I think this is right, this time the <"one legged Irishman"> is in the <"all you can eat buffet">, he has run out of ribs, but he is still tucking into the vol-au-vents and he has just alerted his friends that there is free food available........_


I think of it a bit like cars. The smallest aerodynamic advantage might be of paramount importance in a Formula 1 car, but it doesn't make much difference for most of us, <"stuck in the traffic">, on our commute to work.  

Same with plant growth, if you want to achieve maximal growth rate, in a system where;

Photo-synthetically active radiation (<"PAR">), 
<"CO2"> and 
the <"essential mineral nutrients"> ,
are all non-limiting? Then the form of fixed nitrogen may become relevant, otherwise, I'd guess, it probably isn't that important.

cheers Darrel


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## macek.g (6 May 2022)

erwin123 said:


> *versus*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You have no problem with nitrogen, you specifically have a problem "with the availability of manganese".
Senegalensis
R.Macrandra type 4 ?
Bacopa Purple


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## erwin123 (6 May 2022)

macek.g said:


> You have no problem with nitrogen, you specifically have a problem "with the availability of manganese".
> Senegalensis
> R.Macrandra type 4 ?
> Bacopa Purple


Thanks for your help. I'll look into Manganese.


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## Hufsa (6 May 2022)

macek.g said:


> You have no problem with nitrogen, you specifically have a problem "with the availability of manganese".
> Senegalensis
> R.Macrandra type 4 ?
> Bacopa Purple


If possible could you elaborate for us/me? 
Maybe best to move to erwin's journal though so we dont go too far off topic for this thread 😃


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