# Is this iron deficiency? if not, what?



## Richardblack5

I took pictures to LFS and they said iron deficiency... is this right?

400lt planted
4x T5 55w on 8 hours per day
CO2 on 2 hours before lighting and off 2 hours before lights
GH13
KH7
PH7.3
Temp 29c
Good flow with four powerheads
2 x canister filters (aquamanta EFX 400's)
UV 2 x TMC 400
100 fish (tetras, guppies, Siamese algae eaters, petricola synodontis, plecs, krebs, harlequins, amanos etc
Ferts EI from the Nutrient Company, dose as per intructions
Water change > 50% weekly.


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## Alastair

I could be wrong but other than the algae covering the Anubias and the amazon sword it looks a little like its been eaten too.  You say you have plecs in their and they love swords especially if they aren't getting enough veggies. 

Here's a good link for deficiencies in plants 


http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/deficiencies.htm


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## ceg4048

That's a CO2 deficiency due either to inadequate injection rate or to poor distribution.

Cheers,


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## Richardblack5

Alastair said:
			
		

> I could be wrong but other than the algae covering the Anubias


I agree too, i think it is algea. have Just cut the leaves out of the Anubias to make room for new growth




			
				Alastair said:
			
		

> You say you have plecs in their and they love swords especially if they aren't getting enough veggies


Only have two plecs, and one is small.. you could be right but i have never seen them on the swords.




			
				Alastair said:
			
		

> Here's a good link for deficiencies in plants
> 
> http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/deficiencies.htm


Yes it it, i have visited it many times too , have spoken with Nigel at TNC and he suggested to try this forum.


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## Richardblack5

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> That's a CO2 deficiency due either to inadequate injection rate or to poor distribution.
> 
> Cheers,



Have it at 3bps though in line reactor (100% disolved), also fairly good distribution as you can see in last two pics.


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## foxfish

Well as we all know BC are only a guide but 3 x BPS seems very low to me!
You have 4 x T5s & 8 hours of light, for that amount of light you are going to be needing loads of C02!


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## Dolly Sprint 16v

Richardblack5 said:
			
		

> ceg4048 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's a CO2 deficiency due either to inadequate injection rate or to poor distribution.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have it at 3bps though in line reactor (100% disolved), also fairly good distribution as you can see in last two pics.
Click to expand...



400 ltr tank with 3bps is not enough - I have a 200 ltr running 6 bsp - you need to up the bps rate. Move you drop checker around the tank to see what the co2 levels are, if you have a good injection rate the DC should be lime green where ever you place it.


Regards
Paul


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## Richardblack5

Dolly Sprint 16v said:
			
		

> Richardblack5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ceg4048 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's a CO2 deficiency due either to inadequate injection rate or to poor distribution.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have it at 3bps though in line reactor (100% disolved), also fairly good distribution as you can see in last two pics.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 400 ltr tank with 3bps is not enough - I have a 200 ltr running 6 bsp - you need to up the bps rate. Move you drop checker around the tank to see what the co2 levels are, if you have a good injection rate the DC should be lime green where ever you place it.
Click to expand...


I installed an Aqua Medic Reactor 1000 External CO2 Diffuser yesterday and took out my old unit. I was thinking my co2 was low also so with the Aqua Medic i increased to 8bps. Also moved my DC. By the end of the day my fish did not seem too bothered but I found one Neon Tetra on its side under plants gasping. I started to look closer and found an adult Amano also on its side next to the Neon.. The Amano was within 5cm of a moult so not sure if Amano just recovering from this. The area where they were seems to be in the very centre of the tank, like a 'dead zone' in relation to water flow so im going to get another power head to push water from above. 

I thought the Neon problem might be responsible due to co2 uplift although other fish seem okay. I run an air stone on timer at night so turned this on yesterday after spotting sick Neon just in case I needed to combat co2 (if at all its co2 that’s created the problem with the sick tetra?)

All other fish seem okay so Ill assume Neon is not related to Co2 and continue with forum advice.

My DC never seems to change colour so not sure what’s going on with it... I use the JBL one and its the same shade of green all the time regardless of what i do with co2


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## dw1305

Hi all,
I very much doubt it is iron (Fe) deficiency for all sorts of reasons, but principally that plants only need very small amounts of Fe (it is a micronutrient),  and in most situations iron deficiency is going to be a total red herring. If you want to discount this, you can either add some chelated Iron (FeEDTA, FeEDPA or FeDTPA) from one of our sponsors, or you can buy a small amount of "Citrus fertiliser" from Wilkinsons etc. <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=16865&p=173913&hilit=iron+chelate+EDTA#p173913>.

It is alll part of the Clive's matrix, some time in the dark distant past a company sells a new wonder iron rich substrate, tells us that all your plant growing problems are lack of iron, and from then on any yellow plant leaves are caused by lack of iron. It doesn't matter that they aren't, and there was never ever any scientific validity in the original statement, it is now right up there with:  





> Silicon from glass/Silicone cause Diatoms, you can meaningfully measure water parameters with test kits and phosphorus causes algae.


 They are all concepts that start from a single actual fact: Iron is difficult to keep in solution, Diatom frustules are made from silicon, colormetric methods can be used for No3 detection and much of the eutrophication of the Norfolk Broads, Florida Everglades etc is caused by elevated PO4- levels. These facts are then contorted, twisted and inflated by those who want to both keep us ignorant and sell us a series of "magic bullets" to  deal with all our problems (real and imagined).

I'll pass on CO2 because I don't use it, but looking at the plants, I agree with the others that you have too much light, personally I use floating plants like _Limnobium_ or _Pistia_ to control light levels <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=24109&p=247151&hilit=Duckweed+index#p247151>. Lower the light levels and the plants will re-green, assuming that you have enough macro-nutrients (and particularly N and K available). Magnesium could also possibly be an issue, dependent upon how hard your water is, and how much Mg your fertiliser mix contains. If you want to check again you can buy "Epsom salts" as a magnesium source.

Finally it is plec damage to your Amazon Swords, and the BBA on the _Anubias_ leves will continue to grow  until you lower the light levels. I know they aren't to eveyones taste but Red Ramshorn snails are an efficient control machanism for BBA sporeling etc although they don't eat the adult plant. Eventually the BBA tufts will detatch and can be syphoned out. 

cheers Darrel


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## Richardblack5

Thanks for advice.

Have reduced timer for lights to 7 hours and am monitoring co2 (which now is set to be on 2.5 hrs before lights).

Have trimmed back and removed the infected leaves of Anubias also


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## gmartins

I was reading the post and realised that you keep the tank at 29ºC. That is way too high. I do not know if that is the cause but it is known that high temps can lead some plants to melt... You might want to reduce it to 22-24 ºC just to make sure.

GM


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## ceg4048

That's primarily because the solubility of CO2 at 29 degrees is about 20% less than what is is at 22-24 degrees. So this is even more reason to pay attention to CO2 injection and to stop worrying about Iron.

Cheers,


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## Quetzalcoatl

Is that a JBL drop checker? What solution are you using in it? Is it the supplied (jbl permanent co2) solution.
Using a AM1000 on my 180ltr I was injecting about 6/8 bps.


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## Richardblack5

gmartins said:
			
		

> I was reading the post and realised that you keep the tank at 29ºC. That is way too high. I do not know if that is the cause but it is known that high temps can lead some plants to melt... You might want to reduce it to 22-24 ºC just to make sure.
> 
> GM



Cheers for you help... reducing the temp is easier said than done.. both heaters are unplugged.. The heat is from the room, the tank lights and the tank hood. Any ideas?


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## Richardblack5

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> That's primarily because the solubility of CO2 at 29 degrees is about 20% less than what is is at 22-24 degrees. So this is even more reason to pay attention to CO2 injection and to stop worrying about Iron.
> 
> Cheers,



Message received and understood.. with thanks.. 
Have upped CO2 to between 10 bps and 20 bps (been like this for three days now) DC still green
You were right about the Co2 I was falling well short for what’s needed.


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## Richardblack5

Quetzalcoatl said:
			
		

> Is that a JBL drop checker? What solution are you using in it? Is it the supplied (jbl permanent co2) solution.
> Using a AM1000 on my 180ltr I was injecting about 6/8 bps.



Yes its the JBL, also it does not change colour... ever '?'


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## plantbrain

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> That's primarily because the solubility of CO2 at 29 degrees is about 20% less than what is is at 22-24 degrees. So this is even more reason to pay attention to CO2 injection and to stop worrying about Iron.
> 
> Cheers,



Plants also grow slower, perhaps 20-30% less at say 30C vs 22 C.

So less CO2 is required metabolically............., this rather than the solubility issue, is likely much more the issue.
Also, gas ppm's increase with colder water for all gases. This includes O2, which is very important to fish. So if the fish are okay with cooler temps, then this is the way to go.

You end up having less CO2 demand and more O2 for the same tank, but slower plant growth(which is often a good thing for many folks). Warmer tanks have a much harder time keeping O2 at those higher levels, fish metabolism also is reduced with cooler temps.

So it's not just the solubility of Co2 at say 29C vs 22 C.............there are a few different things going on there and some good arguments for using cooler temps. But with Discus and many South American species, this might not be acceptable.


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## Richardblack5

plantbrain said:
			
		

> ceg4048 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's primarily because the solubility of CO2 at 29 degrees is about 20% less than what is is at 22-24 degrees. So this is even more reason to pay attention to CO2 injection and to stop worrying about Iron.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> 
> 
> Plants also grow slower, perhaps 20-30% less at say 30C vs 22 C....
> So less CO2 is required metabolically............., this rather than the solubility issue, is likely much more the issue.
> Also, gas ppm's increase with colder water for all gases. This includes O2, which is very important to fish. So if the fish are okay with cooler temps, then this is the way to go.
> 
> You end up having less CO2 demand and more O2 for the same tank, but slower plant growth(which is often a good thing for many folks). Warmer tanks have a much harder time keeping O2 at those higher levels, fish metabolism also is reduced with cooler temps.
> 
> So it's not just the solubility of Co2 at say 29C vs 22 C.............there are a few different things going on there and some good arguments for using cooler temps. But with Discus and many South American species, this might not be acceptable.
Click to expand...


My tank used to be 30c but that was when my lights were on 10hrs +

Now i have reduced to 6 hours of light. My temp is 27.5c

How do i get my water cooler?

I also run an air stone at night for 6 hours... do you think i should continue with this?


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## plantbrain

Richardblack5 said:
			
		

> My tank used to be 30c but that was when my lights were on 10hrs +
> 
> Now i have reduced to 6 hours of light. My temp is 27.5c
> 
> How do i get my water cooler?
> 
> I also run an air stone at night for 6 hours... do you think i should continue with this?



It's not that hot in your home is it?

Turn the heater down.

You waste a lot of energy by having warmer than needed temps for many species of fish, if you have Discus, well.............not much way around that.

Dropping 5-10C is a huge difference actually.
Many shrimp keepers are around 18-22C, they have nice easy growth.

Then without looking at the temp differences, claim their no ferts routines are superior............or other oversights or that moss prefers cooler temps.

Moss does fine at warmer temps in most cases if you add enough cO2.


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## xim

Is it impossible that moss simply prefers cool water?
People grows moss and fern in non CO2 tanks with good results.


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## jack-rythm

My weeping moss is in a non heated no filtered non co2 tank and doing amazingly well  

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


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## Richardblack5

It's not that hot in your home is it? ..........yep but i think its the tank lights.. have reduced to 6hrs now

Turn the heater down. its not plugged in

You waste a lot of energy by having warmer than needed temps for many species of fish, if you have Discus, well.............not much way around that. ............No discus

Dropping 5-10C is a huge difference actually.
Many shrimp keepers are around 18-22C, they have nice easy growth.... message understood

Then without looking at the temp differences, claim their no ferts routines are superior............or other oversights or that moss prefers cooler temps.

Moss does fine at warmer temps in most cases if you add enough cO2.[/quote]


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## scottward

plantbrain said:


> Plants also grow slower, perhaps 20-30% less at say 30C vs 22 C.
> 
> So less CO2 is required metabolically............., this rather than the solubility issue, is likely much more the issue.
> Also, gas ppm's increase with colder water for all gases. This includes O2, which is very important to fish. So if the fish are okay with cooler temps, then this is the way to go.
> 
> You end up having less CO2 demand and more O2 for the same tank, but slower plant growth(which is often a good thing for many folks). Warmer tanks have a much harder time keeping O2 at those higher levels, fish metabolism also is reduced with cooler temps.
> 
> So it's not just the solubility of Co2 at say 29C vs 22 C.............there are a few different things going on there and some good arguments for using cooler temps. But with Discus and many South American species, this might not be acceptable.



Tom, you meant to say plants grow faster at 30 vs 22 didn't you?

Higher temps = higher metabolism etc ?


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## plantbrain

scottward said:


> Tom, you meant to say plants grow faster at 30 vs 22 didn't you?
> 
> Higher temps = higher metabolism etc ?


 
Yea, common sense prevails over typos.


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