# Ich help......



## Furgan (1 May 2018)

I have stupidly purchased some new fish without quarantining them and they have turned out to what I diagnose as ich/white spot.

I don’t have a spare tank that could take them so I’m looking for advice on treating them. When I got the marble hatchets and put them in I thought it was the co2 bubbles on there scales, but looks like I was wrong.

I’ve ordered esha 2000 and exit and raised water from 24-26 (at the moment). I want to raise it higher but struggling to find out what temp I can safely raise the temp too (slowly) without causing issues with fauna and flora.

I’ll do lots of water changes and follow the instructions on the esha (2000 is due tomorrow, but exit is thur).

Also will the co2 be ok left on it’s normal timings or will I need to decrease? (I’m new to co2)

*What I have*
180L cube 53/53/56cm

*Flora* 
Carpet is Eleocharis 
susswassertang and  bucaphalandra on the wood
Ludwigia paulustris red 
limnophila hippuridoides 
bacopa caroliniana
*Fauna* 
Wild green neon tetras
Otocinclus 
Marble hatchets
A few culled shrimp
A nerite snail
*Other* 
Substrate ADA amazonia with power sand under
Led Interpret triple led
Co2 with FE
I’ll switch on my pump to add some extra air when the temp goes higher.


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## Tim Harrison (1 May 2018)

Just keep your parameters the same including CO2. The medication should work regardless, just follow the instructions like you intend to do.
Don't forget to remove absorbent filter media like charcoal and purigen. And take your filters capacity in to account when calculating the dose.


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## alto (1 May 2018)

Unless you're attempting to use a heat treatment to "kill" the ich parasites, there's no need to increase temperatures
("ich" has little difficulty withstanding temps up to 94F/34C)

Remember that as water temperature increases, dissolved oxygen level decreases - and fish are already struggling with oxygen exchange as gills will be well parasitized before any "ich" external spots occur

Surface agitation/splashing with your filter return is generally more effective at increasing water oxygen levels than running an air stone, though you can easily do both

Marble hatchets are (notoriously) prone to "ich" & seem to struggle somewhat with recovery as well, I'd continue treating the tank for at least a week after the last "spot" is observed
Wild caught green neons can also be very susceptible to "ich", showing few symptoms & then overwhelmed with "spots"

Large daily water changes will help until med's arrive
Dim lighting generally decreases fish stress (& plants will manage for a few days, I'd continue CO2 at low to moderate  levels, but decrease if your regular CO2 level is high), "ich" also prefers higher light levels


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## alto (1 May 2018)

You might find this esha 2000 discussion interesting 
- I'd confirm with esha that ingredients have not changed (likely not as esha website still links a 2007 pdf for more information)
It's marketed more as an antibacterial med so not sure I'd use it for that one day
The ingredient info from the discussion is lacking concentration information so no way to confirm whether the delivered medication levels (re dose instructions) will be effective 

(A surprising number of hobby targeted aquarium medications deliver drug levels well below therapeutic levels, Seachem tends to be more transparent than most & dosages usually meet guidelines for treating ornamental fish)


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## dw1305 (2 May 2018)

Hi all, 





Furgan said:


> I’ve ordered esha 2000 and exit


It is the <"eSHa EXIT you want">.

cheers Darrel


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## Furgan (2 May 2018)

Thanks Darrel, I panicked and ordered both, as it was recommended for me due to shrimps. The 2000 will be handy to keep spare anyways. I’ve gone black out with co2 off for a few days to reduce stress and turned up the heat from 24 to 26. Just waiting for the meds to arrive.


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## tam (2 May 2018)

I recently treated some sundadanio axelrodi in a tank with cherry shrimp with Exit. No issues for the shrimp  or the fish. Did take two rounds of the full 5 days with water changes and a good gravel syphon in between courses. It may well have just been the first round was an old bottle, so I picked up a fresh one for the second go. Didn't adjust the heat, it was about 23/24. I've dosed Otos successfully with it before too. 

I'm pretty sure the Exit packing says you can dose the 2000 at the same time if you need to e.g. they have other issues as well.

Only downside is it does stain silicone a bit bluish.


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## alto (2 May 2018)

From Fishlore Medications information sticky

esha 2000


> 6.3 mg ethacridine lactate, (AKA: Rivanol, an antibacterial acridine, sometimes used to treat shigella.)
> 1 mg proflavin, an acridine closely related to acriflavin and used for protozoans (velvet), gram positive bacteria, and fungus.
> 3.2 mg Copper ++ - Treats: protozoans (ich and velvet).
> Note: Effective against parasites, but often toxic to fish, espceially in soft water. 0.26 mg methyl orange - a multifunctional product



In esha 2000, it is the copper which targets "ich" but no mention of type of copper (sulfate? amine? chelate?) 

This article discusses copper treatment in aquaria

Seachem Cupramine



esha exit


> ACTIVE INGRED: diaminoacridine 6.3 mg, veride malachitum 0.31 mg, methylrosanilinii chloridum 0.79 mg, methylthioninii chloridum 3.98 mg ad Aqua.
> (basically its Acridine, Malachite Green, Meth.Violet, Meth. Blue)




Shrimp sensitivity to medications definitely increases with moulting - they are usually very sensitive for 24-36 hours post moult (as new "shell" _hardens_); if they are stressed or diseased (& this may go back to previous situation at shop, transhipper, farm etc)

While manufacturers often encourage multiple use of branded medications, fish veterinary research publications discourage this
Generally one disease (type) will be primary, with secondary (& possibly tertiary) infections
As all medications are stressful (further suppressing fish immune system) it's recommended to focus treatment on primary condition rather than tossing in a load of medications hoping to get _something_ right

Further there are pet trade marketed medications which have limited or no proven efficacy against actual fish pathogens


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## Fiske (2 May 2018)

alto said:


> Unless you're attempting to use a heat treatment to "kill" the ich parasites, there's no need to increase temperatures
> ("ich" has little difficulty withstanding temps up to 94F/34C)



What raising temperature does do though is speed up the ichthyophthirius lifecycle, thus making sure that the particular phases where the parasite CAN be killed occur within the treatment period. Ich responds to temperaure with faster or slower metabolism and progress through it's 3 different stages, of which only one is susceptible to medication.

So there is no "heat treatment", au contraire, raising temperature ONLY works in combination with medication, and is useful here; otherwise it helps speed up the disease. I treated ich in a tank full of rasbora, cherry shrimp, snails and Asellus, in combination with a raised temperature and Esha Exit here and here . This went well for all involved critters, although the plants suffered a bit from the high temps.

Also this might be of some help Skeptical Aquarist on web.archive.org


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## alto (2 May 2018)

Fiske said:


> What raising temperature does do though is speed up the ichthyophthirius lifecycle


Yes this is obvious, but is not recommend in all instances
I'd not do this with obviously infested fish in the absence of medication targeting the free-swimming stage, especially given your fish species (wc marble hatchets, wc green neons) - instead try to maintain fish within their natural temperature range

Sceptical Aquarist is a fantastic resource, but obviously hasn't been updated for some years 

Ichthyophthirius multifiliis strains have been found which are
- heat resistant
- medication resistant
- able to complete life cycle on the host fish (fatal)


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## Fiske (2 May 2018)

alto said:


> I'd not do this with obviously infested fish in the absence of medication targeting the free-swimming stage, especially given your fish species (wc marble hatchets, wc green neons) - instead try to maintain fish within their natural temperature range


Which was kind of my point: Raising temperature without medication is counterproductive.


alto said:


> Sceptical Aquarist is a fantastic resource, but obviously hasn't been updated for some years
> 
> Ichthyophthirius multifiliis strains have been found which are
> - heat resistant
> ...



Which is mentioned in the linked article btw. I still believe that understanding the ich lifecycle is crucial to do a correct treatment, especially with regards to HOW temperature plays a role in the lifecycle and the resulting effect of medication. Anyway, the protist is able to handle higher temperatures than most fish without issue.

From wikipedia:


> This life cycle is highly dependent on water temperature, and the entire life cycle takes from approximately 7 days at 25 °C (77 °F) to 8 weeks at 6 °C (43 °F).



If the particular strain is medication resistant... well.


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## Furgan (2 May 2018)

Sad as now the green neons have it, absolutely kicking myself as the LFS ordered the hatchets in special and asked if I wanted to take them before they came out the bag when they arrived to them, stupidly I did and got them in my tank without quarantine.

So stupid


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## alto (2 May 2018)

stupid maybe, but it also might've worked out 

If you'd enquired, I'd've said always Q hatchets & treat for ich regardless, as they are so likely to have been exposed/infected 
But then a friend just recently dumped them in a tank & got lucky ....... 

Difficulty is that you have no way of knowing what the facilities prior to shop were like - I've met fish wholesalers that pride themselves on *never* changing water


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## sciencefiction (3 May 2018)

Fiske said:


> Which was kind of my point: Raising temperature without medication is counterproductive.



It is not, high temperature in the proper range stops the reproductive life cycle of ich. That's normally in the range of of 30 to 31C when it comes to fish tanks as higher is dangerous to the oxygen levels and lower won't kill ich. ...Slowly bumping to that temperature with plenty of surface agitation can actually work alone without any meds but it is easier treating with meds than temp/salt treatment, unless you have med sensitive fish. I treated a clown loach and a bunch of platies with temps and salt alone. The problem with temperature treatment is that you need an accurate thermometer and an oversized heater to actually keep the temperature stable and above 30C.


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## Fiske (3 May 2018)

sciencefiction said:


> It is not, high temperature in the proper range stops the reproductive life cycle of ich. That's normally in the range of of 30 to 31C when it comes to fish tanks as higher is dangerous to the oxygen levels and lower won't kill ich. ...Slowly bumping to that temperature with plenty of surface agitation can actually work alone without any meds but it is easier treating with meds than temp/salt treatment, unless you have med sensitive fish. I treated a clown loach and a bunch of platies with temps and salt alone. The problem with temperature treatment is that you need an accurate thermometer and an oversized heater to actually keep the temperature stable and above 30C.



I am starting to regret I posted in this thread.
To reiterate:
Ich lifecycle is temperature dependent. Higher temps mean faster lifecycle. At least until a certain point where the organism is actually affected and maybe killed. _*Sources on what this specific temperature is vary from 30C to as high as 36C.* That is why I wouldn't recommend heat treatment alone; and as you mention you'll need to make sure your equipment can reach the target temp (whatever it is) and keep it stable for several days, *in the entire tank*._ That is without delving into the stress it applies to already sick fish, not to mention plants etc. So no, I wouldn't recommend heat treatment as a sole action. I actually think that it would do more harm than good in a lot of cases.
When OP raises temperature to 26 degrees without additional treatment ( be it salt or Esha Exit or some third med), that is counterproductive.

I spend a couple of days reading about ich when I got it (and not only at skeptical aquarist btw); and what I took away from all of this is:
- Get whatever meds you like, Esha Exit is as mentioned fairly safe if used as directed. Salt can be fine, but make sure all plants and fish can handle it if used in tank.
- Raise temps to around 28-29 degrees over a day or two. I went for 28, and hit it fairly square. It is not set in stone, just get somewhere in the vicinity to speed up the ich lifecycle to around 4-6 days. Provide additional aeration if neccessary
- Do a large waterchange, be sure to maintain your target temp.
- Then start dosing. Esha Exit treatment runs for 3 or 4 days (can't remember exactly), after that you should:
- Do a large waterchange, be sure to maintain your target temp.
- Run a treatment again.
- If you want to be certain you get every last theront repeat the above two steps once or twice more. I did only 2 consecutive treatments, and have been ich free since. I'd probably recommend at least 2-3 consecutive treatments at the mentioned temp.

This worked for me, in a tank with plants, fish and various inverts. I also didn't use temperature alone as some kind of treatment, but as a tool to make sure that the ich hit the free swimming stage during treatment. _So it was needless to operate with temperatures that would be potentially harmful (at least in theory most tropical fish should be able to handle 27-28 degrees in a shorter period, it really comes down to an estimate of the particular fish). If you for whatever reason can't raise temperatures, be aware that treatment should run longer than at higher temps. _For decidedly coldwater fish we are talking several weeks.


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## alto (3 May 2018)

Fiske said:


> I am starting to regret I posted in this thread.


It's been a good discussion


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## Sakura83 (3 May 2018)

I had the same issue with that fish. Air pomp, 30C and sea salt solved that problem. Just keep temp high till no spots. They will manage.


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## sciencefiction (4 May 2018)

Fiske said:


> This worked for me, in a tank with plants, fish and various inverts. I also didn't use temperature alone as some kind of treatment, but as a tool to make sure that the ich hit the free swimming stage during treatment. _So it was needless to operate with temperatures that would be potentially harmful (at least in theory most tropical fish should be able to handle 27-28 degrees in a shorter period, it really comes down to an estimate of the particular fish). If you for whatever reason can't raise temperatures, be aware that treatment should run longer than at higher temps. _For decidedly coldwater fish we are talking several weeks.



I am thankful to your contribution and I am glad that whatever you used worked for your fish.
You are assuming that temperature(in relation to tropical fish) is more stressful to fish than the meds you've used?, e.i, copper sulfate, formalin, potassium permanganate, malachite green, etc..... All white spot meds are either toxic to fish. carcinogenic or severely compromise oxygen levels, or both.
..
Itch is very sensitive to temperature, especially in its re-infective stage and temperature is a choice of treatment for sensitive fish. 

I am not sure where you got your temperature ranges from. Itch reproduction is inhibited at temps above 30C and dies at up to 33C depending on the strain. Majority of studies are done on cold water fish but tropicals are a lot more tolerant to high temps, much more than to meds, and they encounter those in nature.


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## Fiske (4 May 2018)

sciencefiction said:


> You are assuming that temperature(in relation to tropical fish) is more stressful to fish than the meds you've used?



No.
Not neccessarily; as it depends on species, and particular medication. Do you think salt could be stressful to freshwater fish? Rethorical question, no need to answer that as I'm really not in the mood for the incessant hair splitting in this thread. I think I've said my piece, and don't feel like I have to answer whatever assumptions gets contributed to me.



Fiske said:


> _That is why I wouldn't recommend heat treatment alone; and as you mention you'll need to make sure your equipment can reach the target temp (whatever it is) and keep it stable for several days, *in the entire tank*._ So no, I wouldn't recommend heat treatment as a sole action. I actually think that it would do more harm than good in a lot of cases.
> When OP raises temperature to 26 degrees without additional treatment ( be it salt or Esha Exit or some third med), that is counterproductive.



Above quote illustrates the original point I wanted to make. Just to make sure, I DO count salt as an medication for ich, it's been proven to work; just so we are clear on that. Feel free to look at more sources on what temperature is actually inhibiting/lethal to all strains of ich, you'll get a lot of different numbers (further illustrating that some strains can handle higher temps; hell, just look at the numbers in this thread, aside from my own, a range of 30-34C has been mentioned. Which is why I recommend a secondary weapon to eradicate the disease (salt, Esha, whatever).

I'll refrain from further postings in this thread.


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## sciencefiction (4 May 2018)

Fiske said:


> Feel free to look at more sources on what temperature is actually inhibiting/lethal to all strains of ich, you'll get a lot of different numbers


 
Feel free to provide references to your claims.


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## sciencefiction (4 May 2018)

Fiske said:


> No.
> Not neccessarily; as it depends on species, and particular medication


 
Itch meds are toxic to all critters. It is the dosage that determines the outcome.


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## Furgan (4 May 2018)

Only just managed to get some Esha Exit, had ordered via amazon and the parcel got lost but managed to locate one locally.

Unfortunately I’ve suffered a great loss, most the hatchets have gone and the tetras as going, I’ve lost 8 out of a possible 30.

I just hope the meds start working and doing there job to save what’s left


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## sciencefiction (4 May 2018)

Furgan said:


> Unfortunately I’ve suffered a great loss, most the hatchets have gone and the tetras as going, I’ve lost 8 out of a possible 30.



As alto pointed out, you also have white spot sensitive fish, both tetras and hatchets.....Sorry for your loss. It's not nice to experience...
On another hand, a bit of after-timing of course as I hadn't read the thread before, tetras, as well as being sensitive to white spot, are not quite sensitive to high temps and they would be fine up to 34C, at least majority of tetra species. I don't know anything about hatchet fish....but....one always takes a risk regardless of the course of action...In the case of diagnosed ich, an immediate action is better than the right action but delayed action.....


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