# How to create a muddied river bank . . .



## Wookii

Bit of a random one this, but I've recently been admiring some amazing looking biotope tanks, and I'm wondering how they go about creating a full height vertical 'bank' against an aquarium pane. Some examples that I posted in another thread recently:









I would guess at maybe something like lava rock, somehow mortared together with some sort of clay perhaps? Though I can't imagine how clay wouldn't just turn to mush eventually in the water, or cause havoc with the water parameters.

I can't seem to find any instructional guides or 'in-progress' construction images anywhere on the net . . . so if anyone knows how they do it? . . .


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## mort

I've considered this a few times and although I haven't researched the subject the best idea or way I had was to just attach a network of roots to some sort of solid structure. I think lava rock would work well for that covered by a fabric layer and then covered in roots. I'm thinking along the same lines as how they make terrarium backgrounds but you'd need to consider how long it would work under water. Sticking sand or a similar to a membrane with silicon might prolong the life before its covered in the roots. 

I think you could also just hack off a lot of roots growing into a river from an alder but that probably would be sustainable. You could also get a similar look on a smaller scale with a vigorous emersed fern, like a maidenhair, which has a similar root structure.

Cool idea though.


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## Wookii

That was my thinking too @mort - there is a none degradable product for terrariums called Epiweb IIs:



			Epiweb
		


But I can imagine it might be too obvious underwater.

I think construction from lava rock using traditional methods might work, but you’d need a way to fill in the gaps and smooth the surface a bit, in a seamless way. It would need some sort of adhesive that you could mix with finely crushed lava rock and mould in by hand. Then as you say, detail with loads of roots and wood etc


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## ScareCrow

I also really liked the look of those biotopes, so thanks for posting them. I've not tried it but I wonder if expanding foam, covered with silicone and then press coir fiber, branches etc into it would work. SerpaDesign uses this technique in a lot of his builds.


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## mort

ScareCrow said:


> I also really liked the look of those biotopes, so thanks for posting them. I've not tried it but I wonder if expanding foam, covered with silicone and then press coir fiber, branches etc into it would work. SerpaDesign uses this technique in a lot of his builds.



That's may general thinking when I mentioned terrarium type background but I don't think coir would hold up very long underwater. I think wookii's idea of building a more stable base with crushed lava rock might hold up longer.
You could probably modify one of the realistic 3d backgrounds with heavy roots but those biotope guys and girls really have some skills.


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## Simmo

I wonder if you could make a glassfibre shape and then colour it brown and then stick your roots, small rocks etc to it. Need some creative talent to pull it off! Or make a shape and take a glassfibre mould of it and then fill with resin , expanding foam...hmmm great project!


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## Garuf

There's a guy who I featured in a GEAMS a long long time ago who did one as a full tutorial and it was done with expanding foam, polystyrene plates and then a clay mud pushed into silicone, then details glued on, then more texture etc added with more silicon much like how terrarium folks do their tanks, in the bare areas back to nature back grounds were cut up and used. Heather has long been regarded as the "best" root structure for the fine detail work but I honestly suspect anything hard will work just fine, apple twigs, hawthorn etc I have had no issues with. Given how high and mighty the Biotope guys can get about their tanks, I'm always surprised by how much "fake" material they use and how a biotope can be a whole continent but that's neither here nor there.


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## Wookii

Simmo said:


> I wonder if you could make a glassfibre shape and then colour it brown and then stick your roots, small rocks etc to it. Need some creative talent to pull it off! Or make a shape and take a glassfibre mould of it and then fill with resin , expanding foam...hmmm great project!



Its a good idea, but I wonder how easy it will be to create something natural looking from fibre glass.

I don’t think I’d have the necessary talent for that.


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## Wookii

Garuf said:


> There's a guy who I featured in a GEAMS a long long time ago who did one as a full tutorial and it was done with expanding foam, polystyrene plates and then a clay mud pushed into silicone, then details glued on, then more texture etc added with more silicon much like how terrarium folks do their tanks, in the bare areas back to nature back grounds were cut up and used. Heather has long been regarded as the "best" root structure for the fine detail work but I honestly suspect anything hard will work just fine, apple twigs, hawthorn etc I have had no issues with. Given how high and mighty the Biotope guys can get about their tanks, I'm always surprised by how much "fake" material they use and how a biotope can be a whole continent but that's neither here nor there.



Thanks @Garuf - excuse my ignorance but what is GEAMS?

I think I might need to experiment with some crush lava rock mixed with silicone, and see how it looks.


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## Garuf

It'll look like a dry stone wall I'd imagine, the reason for the foam is the ease of shaping and it's very easy to work with and light.


Geams is/was an inspiration thread I used to run when I was very online, it stands for get excited and make something.


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## Onoma1

The other approach would be to use Epiweb which is then covered with hygrolon. Epiweb will give you the bulk and can be shaped (but is coarse) and epiweb will give you an fabric that wicks water and is relatively fine.

EpiWeb - A Better Xaxim!

An alternative I considered was carved polystyrene, painted and then attach plants.


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## Wookii

Onoma1 said:


> The other approach would be to use Epiweb which is then covered with hygrolon. Epiweb will give you the bulk and can be shaped (but is coarse) and epiweb will give you an fabric that wicks water and is relatively fine.
> 
> EpiWeb - A Better Xaxim!
> 
> An alternative I considered was carved polystyrene, painted and then attach plants.



Thank @Onoma1 - I hadn’t heard of Hygrolon. I guess the trick is making it look natural enough. Not sure I could pull that off! This pic shows a way to do it with PU foam:


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## foxfish

Yes expanding poly foam, shaped and decorated with hardwood saw dust and epoxy .... I have done loads of similar things just like that.
you can see how I made some tree stumps here..... Paludarium In the making.


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## Wookii

foxfish said:


> Yes expanding poly foam, shaped and decorated with hardwood saw dust and epoxy .... I have done loads of similar things just like that.
> you can see how I made some tree stumps here..... Paludarium In the making.



Thats excellent @foxfish it looked really good. What epoxy did you use - some slow setting stuff presumably? Would it be safe fully submerged, and with livestock? I assume I you could press lava rock dust and particles into it instead of wood dust?


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## foxfish

You can do what every you want, I am sure lots of new effects are just waiting to be discovered !
I have found useing several coats of slightly different colour saw dust  and of different grades will give a very realistic ground appearance . Equally important is how it mixes with the epoxy and makes a easy paintable textured coating.
Epoxy is very safe once cured but it is not cheap especially  in small quantiles.
However be warned that Epoxy needs to be mixed carefully and accurately this is extremely important if you want good results!
The type of epoxy you need is slow setting although there are options for faster setting products, even fast set epoxy will take a few hours to set and 24 to properly harden.
We are not talking about epoxy you get in a tube but a low viscosity resin.
Good quality resin is around £35 a litre ...


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## ForestDave

I used Jesmonite, (waterbased fiberglass resin), over a base of Polystyrene and spray foam on a 6 foot tank years ago. It's great stuff and it was still rock hard after 5 years or so in the tank, (You paint it with a waterbased sealer). I did feel the water trapped at the back behind the poly did become a bit stagnant and smelly though, It also was a nightmare trying to get the stuff out of the tank when I disbanded. In the end I just scrapped the lot as I couldn't get it out, I was meant to be moving house though and ran out of time.
This mould making site might be worth a look,
You are being redirected... 
I'm not sure if many of the products are of use but they have excellent how to videos which could maybe help with some elements of making authentic realistic backgrounds/additions to a tank. If not, then it's the best place to find out how to make zombie fingers!


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## ForestDave

This stuff could possibly be useful in making a mud bank.
Varaform Heavy per sheet

You could cut a few formers out of plastic 16mm square fascia board screwed together with stainless screws to make a framework and then cable tie the mesh onto them, working away with a heat gun and a few tools to form the surface into the look you want. It says water resistant so it would need a coat of epoxy or sealer to protect it. This protective layer could be coloured to match your substrate to make sure it wasn't seen through the roots/plants. After that you could attach a layer of Epiweb to the surface and back fill with maybe a mix of lava rock and AS. That way the plants could properly root through the Epiweb and the Varaform into vertical substrate. 
I've never used Varaform so you'd need to have a good chat with the suppliers.


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## zozo

Blocks from styrofoam also can be used, can be shaped with a wirecutter and or a small flame torch...Then as mentioned above coated with Epoxy or liquid rubber products and sprinkle natural materials into it before it's cured, peat litter, sand, loam etc. Then glued into place to the glass with sealant...

Techniques used are known from the terrarium/paludarium/riparium hobby these should all be pet safe as well.








						Elastopur set kopen? Deze koop je bij Dutch Rana
					

Wil jij je eigen terrarium inrichten? Dan is een elastopur set van Dutch Rana een echte must have! Koop hem hier in de webwinkel van Dutch Rana.




					www.dutchrana.nl
				












						Epoxy voor aquarium en achterwanden
					

Mr.Boat Epoxy is ook perfect voor liefhebbers van aquaria en terraria.




					www.mrboat.nl


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## Wookii

ForestDave said:


> I used Jesmonite, (waterbased fiberglass resin), over a base of Polystyrene and spray foam on a 6 foot tank years ago. It's great stuff and it was still rock hard after 5 years or so in the tank, (You paint it with a waterbased sealer). I did feel the water trapped at the back behind the poly did become a bit stagnant and smelly though, It also was a nightmare trying to get the stuff out of the tank when I disbanded. In the end I just scrapped the lot as I couldn't get it out, I was meant to be moving house though and ran out of time.
> This mould making site might be worth a look,
> You are being redirected...
> I'm not sure if many of the products are of use but they have excellent how to videos which could maybe help with some elements of making authentic realistic backgrounds/additions to a tank. If not, then it's the best place to find out how to make zombie fingers!



Thanks @ForestDave - useful stuff there. Again though, I’m just concerned as to whether I’d be able to creat something that looks natural with my own relatively low skill levels.

I’ve also been wondering about the trapped layer at the rear fouling up. I wondered, if I do attempt this, whether I make the fake river bank on a sheet of Perspex, and then once complete mount it to the side of the tank with a very thin continuous bead of silicone, say about an inch in from all four edges. The idea being it won’t let water in behind most of it, and I should be able to slit the silicone and release the Perspex sheet whenever I decide to redo the tank.

Thanks for that link - going to have to remember about the “Ultimate Wound Kit” for the kids at Halloween! 😂


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## Wookii

zozo said:


> Blocks from styrofoam also can be used, can be shaped with a wirecutter and or a small flame torch...Then as mentioned above coated with Epoxy or liquid rubber products and sprinkle natural materials into it before it's cured, peat litter, sand, loam etc. Then glued into place to the glass with sealant...
> 
> Techniques used are known from the terrarium/paludarium/riparium hobby these should all be pet safe as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Elastopur set kopen? Deze koop je bij Dutch Rana
> 
> 
> Wil jij je eigen terrarium inrichten? Dan is een elastopur set van Dutch Rana een echte must have! Koop hem hier in de webwinkel van Dutch Rana.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dutchrana.nl
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Epoxy voor aquarium en achterwanden
> 
> 
> Mr.Boat Epoxy is ook perfect voor liefhebbers van aquaria en terraria.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mrboat.nl



Thanks @zozo - that kit in the first link looks good. Do you think the same material used for Terrarium’s will be fine being completely submerged for several years in an aquarium?


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## zozo

Wookii said:


> Thanks @zozo - that kit in the first link looks good. Do you think the same material used for Terrarium’s will be fine being completely submerged for several years in an aquarium?



Delamination can occur with anything if water can get in between coating and base material.

That Elastopur actually is a 2 component liquid rubber, nowadays this also exists as waterbased 1 component liquid rubber products from several brands in different colours to seal water tanks, swimming pools and ponds. I guess a water-based 1 component product is not only easier to use but also more affordable. Anything 2 component can not be stored once it is mixed.

But also these products can have delamination issues after a few years if applied to a not fully dried (moist) surface without the use of a special primer. This mainly shows as air bubbles under the skin.

I guess best practice would be to coat the object all around and not only the part that is in view. Even if it is applied to a water-resistant material. Or seal the edges where it touches the glass accordingly so there can get no water behind it to the base material and in between its coating. If you do not do this there is no guarantee it will hold for several years and that delamination will never occur. All tho even if small pieces delaminate you probably will not notice, it's not that a loose piece of skin will fall off. 

And this still isn't a 100% guarantee, take a good look at most older fish tanks, most of them have some delaminated silicone in the corners. As long as it doesn't leak there are no worries, but do we ever really know? There are reports enough of fish tanks spontaneously leaking after a few years... Water and temperature fluctuation on submerged products under pressure can be a slow nasty creeper.


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## zozo

Another possible and rather cheap application that can be used... I did myself in the past but almost forgot...

Is silicone sealant  this product is petrol-based, it can be mixed with something like white spirit and make it thin enough so it can be applied it with a brush...

Also, this can be sprinkled with whatever material at hand... I used it like that to create a waterfall in the garden and sprinkled gravel over the yet not cured silicone... Also used to seal terracotta pots and make them watertight... The white spirit will completely evaporate and aquarium safe silicone should be used. I never had any issues with it and it's pretty tough after its cured.


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## ForestDave

Wookii said:


> Thanks @ForestDave - useful stuff there. Again though, I’m just concerned as to whether I’d be able to creat something that looks natural with my own relatively low skill levels.
> 
> I’ve also been wondering about the trapped layer at the rear fouling up. I wondered, if I do attempt this, whether I make the fake river bank on a sheet of Perspex, and then once complete mount it to the side of the tank with a very thin continuous bead of silicone, say about an inch in from all four edges. The idea being it won’t let water in behind most of it, and I should be able to slit the silicone and release the Perspex sheet whenever I decide to redo the tank.
> 
> Thanks for that link - going to have to remember about the “Ultimate Wound Kit” for the kids at Halloween! 😂


That sound like a good system with the perspex and silicon, it would be really useful to have it removable. I had a mountain of unmovable polystyrene covered with rock hard w/b fiberglass, trapping skanky pockets of stagnant water behind it. 
Yep I reckon that's a great idea for next Halloween!


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## zozo

Some inspirational links... 









						Paludarium for Poison Dart Frogs
					

Here are a few ways to make a paludarium suitable for a poison dart frog!




					thefroglady.wordpress.com
				












						6ft paludarium journal- pictures
					

Hi Bros,    Anyone keep 6ft vivarium tank or seen any 6ft vivarium tank in Singapore?:)    Care to share with me? I still wavering, should I setup a vivarium project for this 6x2.5x2.5 tank .:blackeye:    let me know your thoughts.



					www.aquaticquotient.com
				









						A planted tank thats possibly an industry first.
					

This is my second planted tank, i had others ask to see my other tanks that i had. That there had to be others do to " no knob could create such a tank on there first try" So heres my second attemp. the tank is placed off the wall and i made a water proof shelf basicaly on three sides where all...




					www.aquariacentral.com
				




All found at www.pinterest.com with the search query "Paludarium Build instructions" ore something along that line.
Then you'll find tons of pictures and most contain a link to the source...  You'll find journals about builds from scratch.

And Dendroboard.com is absolutely worth to visit, the frog keepers all need to build an included water party for the pollywogs. 








						Dendroboard
					

A forum community dedicated to dart frog owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about breeding, health, behavior, housing, terrariums, adopting, care, classifieds, and more!




					www.dendroboard.com


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## zozo

Another idea I used my self in the past on a smaller scale is Lavarocks... I do not see why size should be an issue with it... This stuff is light, easy to shape, chunks are available at all sizes it is easy to stack and glued together. Once the retaining wall is setup the lava rock can also be coated with a liquid rubber... It is coarse and porous, the glue and coating will run into the porous nooks and crannies and never come off again. It creates a perfect anchor...

But keep in mind if you use natural organic materials to cover the coating, this material will soak with water and at some point will decompose and delaminate. That is something inevitable with submersed natural materials such as wood and peat etc. But using a natural colour coating can do a lot...


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## Andrew Butler

I started a reply yesterday but didn't get it finished so I'm a few steps behind, like the sound of what @foxfish says at a quick glance.
I think an expanding foam based idea could work as a base but would likely ruin that aquarium if you made it in situ to fill out to the front.
If you're not wanting it all the way to the front then maybe 2 thin pieces of acrylic with expanding foam moulded around a big stone it keep it down.
You can stick pieces of twig in as it sets and will keep them in place, a bit of trial and error here.
There are products like Nyos reef cement and Aquaforest stone fix which are almost like Postcrete but go off fast and think could stick to the expanding foam although I'm not sure about that so again trial and error.


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## Wookii

Does anyone have any link to coloured aquarium safe PU foam? The


zozo said:


> Some inspirational links...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Paludarium for Poison Dart Frogs
> 
> 
> Here are a few ways to make a paludarium suitable for a poison dart frog!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thefroglady.wordpress.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 6ft paludarium journal- pictures
> 
> 
> Hi Bros,    Anyone keep 6ft vivarium tank or seen any 6ft vivarium tank in Singapore?:)    Care to share with me? I still wavering, should I setup a vivarium project for this 6x2.5x2.5 tank .:blackeye:    let me know your thoughts.
> 
> 
> 
> www.aquaticquotient.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A planted tank thats possibly an industry first.
> 
> 
> This is my second planted tank, i had others ask to see my other tanks that i had. That there had to be others do to " no knob could create such a tank on there first try" So heres my second attemp. the tank is placed off the wall and i made a water proof shelf basicaly on three sides where all...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aquariacentral.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All found at www.pinterest.com with the search query "Paludarium Build instructions" ore something along that line.
> Then you'll find tons of pictures and most contain a link to the source...  You'll find journals about builds from scratch.
> 
> And Dendroboard.com is absolutely worth to visit, the frog keepers all need to build an included water party for the pollywogs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dendroboard
> 
> 
> A forum community dedicated to dart frog owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about breeding, health, behavior, housing, terrariums, adopting, care, classifieds, and more!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dendroboard.com



Some great links there, thanks @zozo - I’ll work my way through them . . .


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## zozo

Can't wait to see what you come up with if you ever build something like it... 

I've been playing with this idea in my mind already for a few years... And one day I'll build something like it. When that will be I dunno but my next one will be... Not sure if I go on with my initial idea of a shallow L-shaped tank that goes 90° in the corner with a middle diagonal front panel... The background of the diagonal part will be set up as if it was a muddy eroded outside overhanging river bank going emerged with plants and roots obviously... It's almost 5 years ago I created this fantasy in my mind...








						L shaped tank with diagonal front panel
					

This is actualy what i'm thinking about.. Not big and rather shallow with loads of emersed growth,, Actualy it should resamble a stream with a 90° bend where the back 90° corner wil completely be elevated to emersed and rounded.  Like this. Maybe smaller, just an idea.. My 3 tanks in one idea...



					www.ukaps.org
				




Still pondering over it. This is the runner up towards it... 








						Where The Jungle  "Destroys" Red Rock Creek..
					

What species is this lily? :)   This one...   But then a very small cutting from its rhizome... That way it stays very small for a few years depending on fertilization and light cycle... This actually goes for any lily sp. with a Marliac or Tuberosa rhizome. Cut off a small young plantlet from...



					www.ukaps.org


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## Wookii

zozo said:


> Another idea I used my self in the past on a smaller scale is Lavarocks... I do not see why size should be an issue with it... This stuff is light, easy to shape, chunks are available at all sizes it is easy to stack and glued together. Once the retaining wall is setup the lava rock can also be coated with a liquid rubber... It is coarse and porous, the glue and coating will run into the porous nooks and crannies and never come off again. It creates a perfect anchor...
> 
> But keep in mind if you use natural organic materials to cover the coating, this material will soak with water and at some point will decompose and delaminate. That is something inevitable with submersed natural materials such as wood and peat etc. But using a natural colour coating can do a lot...



I think this is the way I’m going to go. I can’t see myself being able to create something that looks natural enough from scratch so if I start with lava rock, at least I’m half way there already.

I have some circular saws and other tools that will be fine on stone and lava rock is fairly soft. So I’m thinking my process would be:

1. Cut a piece of acrylic to fit just inside the tank panel being done, maybe with a bend on the base to help it stand.

2. Select some lava rock pieces for the design, maybe cutting some of them in half or cutting or sanding flat surfaces to mount against the acrylic.

3. With the cut acrylic laying flat, and the surface pre-sanded to achieve a good key, assemble the lava rock to create the basis of the river bank.

4. Removing one piece at a time, lay down a bed of PU foam (brown if I can find it), and bed each piece of lava rock in place. Filling any gaps I don’t want with PU foam and smaller pieces of lava rock, and adding in some roots and wood piece where needed, and where I want it to look more ‘embedded’ in the bank.

5. Use my Dremel with a wire brush fitting to grind back any excess PU foam to shape it and create a rough texture similar to the lava rock.

6. Mix lava rock dust and particle with some silicone or resin and paint it over any exposed PU foam, pouring over and pressing in additional lava rock particles. Add finishing bits of roots and wood.

7. Once finished and washed, add a small bead to the edge of the of the rear of the Perspex to seal it to the inside face of the tank.


I would want to create a slight overhang to the river bank design, and I’d also want some emersed growth above water level, so I may carve out the top of the over hang, and drill drainage holes, to allow planting inside it too.

Now I just need a cheap source for lots of natural looking lava rock?


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## Wookii

Andrew Butler said:


> I started a reply yesterday but didn't get it finished so I'm a few steps behind, like the sound of what @foxfish says at a quick glance.
> I think an expanding foam based idea could work as a base but would likely ruin that aquarium if you made it in situ to fill out to the front.
> If you're not wanting it all the way to the front then maybe 2 thin pieces of acrylic with expanding foam moulded around a big stone it keep it down.
> You can stick pieces of twig in as it sets and will keep them in place, a bit of trial and error here.
> There are products like Nyos reef cement and Aquaforest stone fix which are almost like Postcrete but go off fast and think could stick to the expanding foam although I'm not sure about that so again trial and error.



Thanks Andrew - yeah, I think a bit of experimentation and trial and error is going to be needed before I attempt the final thing.


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## zozo

Wookii said:


> Now I just need a cheap source for lots of natural looking lava rock?



In pond shops, you definitively find Lava rock as a filter medium by the bag... Smaller pieces you would need anyway. What comes in handy the bottom of the bags is always littered with dust from the rocks... For bigger pieces, you would be better off in garden centres or garden landscape shops.  In my area, the bigger lava rock sold as aquarium decoration is massively overpriced.


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## zozo

BTW James Findley has a nice maybe inspirational tutorial video on using Lava rock to go into height... Named Altitude...


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## Wookii

zozo said:


> In pond shops, you definitively find Lava rock as a filter medium by the bag... Smaller pieces you would need anyway. What comes in handy the bottom of the bags is always littered with dust from the rocks... For bigger pieces, you would be better off in garden centres or garden landscape shops.  In my area, the bigger lava rock sold as aquarium decoration is massively overpriced.



Yep - as soon as you add the word ‘Aquarium’ to any item it appears to be license to quadruple the price!

The aquarium shops also seem to focus more on the pure red or pure black type lava rocks - I want stuff that’s a random mixture of colourations I think, as it’ll be easier to make look more natural. A bit like this:


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## zozo

And regarding the video of James he makes an expensive mistake...He pours bags of expensive substrate behind it and uses substrate supports to prevent it from running out off the gaps... While you can use smaller lava rocks the fill it up, but then first glue a few small pieces into gaps to plug them from behind. Lava rock is extremely versatile to build with.

In this video, he could have saved on at least 2 bags of expensive substrate with using smaller sized filter lava rock instead.


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## Wookii

zozo said:


> And regarding the video of James he makes an expensive mistake...He pours bags of expensive substrate behind it and uses substrate supports to prevent it from running out off the gaps... While you can use smaller lava rocks the fill it up, but then first glue a few small pieces into gaps to plug them from behind. Lava rock is extremely versatile to build with.
> 
> In this video, he could have saved on at least 2 bags of expensive substrate with using smaller sized filter lava rock instead.



I did wonder why he was adding soil so low down at the back there.

I do like his videos, but I’ve always wondered if it is him narrating too, and then wondered why he always refers to himself in the third person


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## zozo

I've once seen a few of his interviews, he is not the narrator of the videos..


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## Wookii

So this expanding foam claims to be fish safe, and isn’t a bad starting colour at medium grey (despite its description being black).






						Pond Sealants
					

Pond Sealants for fixing leaking ponds. Available with our lowest price guarantee and free delivery options.




					www.swelluk.com
				




Can’t seem to find anything brown though.


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## zozo

Wookii said:


> So this expanding foam claims to be fish safe, and isn’t a bad starting colour at medium grey (despite its description being black).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pond Sealants
> 
> 
> Pond Sealants for fixing leaking ponds. Available with our lowest price guarantee and free delivery options.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.swelluk.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can’t seem to find anything brown though.



It is, it is often used for pond building... I've used it too... And it also waterlogs like a sponge after a while...
I don't believe it is any different as the yellow one from the hardware store it just black.


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## Andrew Butler

The foamfix Oase do is black also.
I think @zozo  is right about there being no difference aside from colour to the yellow construction type expanding foam.

There's loads of info from people making DIY backgrounds for vivariums different ways so guess it's down to you which one(s) you want to experiment with.

Are you wanting things to fit tight against the glass, if not how do you see it being laid out?
Interested to see how this develops to try a terrarium of some descriptor at some point.


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## Wookii

zozo said:


> It is, it is often used for pond building... I've used it too... And it also waterlogs like a sponge after a while...
> I don't believe it is any different as the yellow one from the hardware store it just black.



Oh, I figured some stuff might have fungicides in etc? If there is even the slightest risk of that, I’d rather just use the stuff that’s says it’s safe for aquatics - I don’t particularly want yellow anyway just in case some of it becomes visible further down the line.


----------



## Wookii

Andrew Butler said:


> The foamfix Oase do is black also.
> I think @zozo  is right about there being no difference aside from colour to the yellow construction type expanding foam.
> 
> There's loads of info from people making DIY backgrounds for vivariums different ways so guess it's down to you which one(s) you want to experiment with.
> 
> Are you wanting things to fit tight against the glass, if not how do you see it being laid out?
> Interested to see how this develops to try a terrarium of some descriptor at some point.


Yes I’d want to tight fitting to the glass, but I don’t want to build it straight into the glass directly, as I’ll no doubt want to scrap it and do something different with the tank in the future. Hence why I’ll use the foam and bond the lava rock etc onto the Perspex sheet, and then just lightly bond the perspex sheet onto the glass with silicone if I can, so it’s more easily removable  in the future.


----------



## zozo

Wookii said:


> Oh, I figured some stuff might have fungicides in etc? If there is even the slightest risk of that, I’d rather just use the stuff that’s says it’s safe for aquatics - I don’t particularly want yellow anyway just in case some of it becomes visible further down the line.



By the amounts, you likely will need, stick with the black landscape foam. Once expanded 1 bottle contains quite a bit. I guess it won't make a significant dent in your budget...


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## Andrew Butler

Wookii said:


> Yes I’d want to tight fitting to the glass, but I don’t want to build it straight into the glass directly, as I’ll no doubt want to scrap it and do something different with the tank in the future. Hence why I’ll use the foam and bond the lava rock etc onto the Perspex sheet, and then just lightly bond the perspex sheet onto the glass with silicone if I can, so it’s more easily removable in the future.


So you're looking to create a piece that slides in snug to the aquarium with a bottom, back, sides and I guess the front in 2 pieces? - Just trying to picture things.
Sounds quite brave!

I'm unsure quite how it would work but if the silicone joints were sealed off from the foam then you would be able to make it in situ and then when the time comes tear it out and carefully scrape it all from the glass with a clean blade.
You could possibly cover the parts where foam touches the glass in vinyl so you don't see it- printed vinyl even if you can either find something or get something printed.


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## Wookii

Andrew Butler said:


> So you're looking to create a piece that slides in snug to the aquarium with a bottom, back, sides and I guess the front in 2 pieces? - Just trying to picture things.
> Sounds quite brave!
> 
> I'm unsure quite how it would work but if the silicone joints were sealed off from the foam then you would be able to make it in situ and then when the time comes tear it out and carefully scrape it all from the glass with a clean blade.
> You could possibly cover the parts where foam touches the glass in vinyl so you don't see it- printed vinyl even if you can either find something or get something printed.



No, not quite Andrew - it's hard to describe in words. Say you have a EA Aquascaper 900, and you want to make a bank style background to the rear and left side. So, internally the rear pane is around 880 x 440 internally. So my plan would be cut a piece of clear (or maybe black) perspex to maybe 875 x  435, perhaps with a 100mm flange/bend on the base to help it stand and distribute the weight (this would be covered by substrate anyway).

I would then lay it flat on its back whist constructing the 'bank'. Rough sand it for a good key to the expanding foam, add a layer of the expanding foam a section at a time, and press the lava rock into it. Carve the excess and decorate as detailed above.

Then once dried, completed and washed, I'd stand the whole thing up on that 100mm flange, and on the rear add a very small very thin and continuous bead of silicone to around all four edges about 25mm in from the edges.

I'd possibly lay the aquarium on its back, and then lower the 'river bank' background into the tank so the silicone bead forms a seal with the rear glass panel of the tank. Once dried stand the tank back up. Repeat for the side panel - obviously the design of the 'bank', and the flange on the base would need to account for the join/transitions between the side and rear.

Only thing that might be cause for concern is the weight perhaps.

Hopefully the thin bead of silicone would prevent water ingress behind the pre-fab backgrounds, and mean to remove them is a matter of slitting that thin silicone bead, and then removing from the tank inner panes in the usual ways.

Does that make sense? This is all just theory of course at this stage. I will no doubt hit stumbling blocks if/when I attempt it for real, and have to figure out work arounds. In the meantime, I have ordered a few bits to attempt a mini mock up to test the theory.


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## ScareCrow

This might give some ideas for creating a DIY background. Depending on the width of the tank, I'd be tempted to go with a false back. Then you could hide equipment behind your background and you wouldn't need to worry about water becoming stagnant. I have a false back on my current tank and really like it. I hide all of the equipment in one section, there's room for mechanical and biological filtration, I culture blackworms in another section and I have riparium plants growing out of the top.


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## Andrew Butler

Wookii said:


> Does that make sense?


Almost! I think the pictures in the first post are what I had in mind but you're looking to just take up the back and left if I'm reading correctly and infact there wouldn't be any of the front pane obscured at all?

All just open thought and opinion here.......
I think if you put silicone on the back of the perspex on all 4 edges that you might have a problem getting it off as you are unable to access the sides or bottom to cut them cleanly and maybe also have one side locking the back in.
Possibly by putting a bead along the top where you could get to trim it cleanly and then putting a bead along the bottom of the structure on the face to keep that in check would work and be hidden by any substrate, I can't see it having much weight to it really and silicone is some string old stuff.
If you are happy to then silicone up the edge of the side you see, it will protect the glass from any of the substrate you use in the process and should hold things firm.

Do you think you could make it so the side slid down into the back by creating a rebate? this way you would be able to make the back not as wide and allow you a bit of play.

How do you see it finishing at the front of the side panel?


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## Wookii

ScareCrow said:


> This might give some ideas for creating a DIY background. Depending on the width of the tank, I'd be tempted to go with a false back. Then you could hide equipment behind your background and you wouldn't need to worry about water becoming stagnant. I have a false back on my current tank and really like it. I hide all of the equipment in one section, there's room for mechanical and biological filtration, I culture blackworms in another section and I have riparium plants growing out of the top.



Thanks @ScareCrow - that looks a similar technique to the expanding foam. I think I need to experiment a bit to see what works best. Do you have a journal for your tank?


----------



## ScareCrow

Wookii said:


> Do you have a journal for your tank?


I don't, it's something that I've been meaning to do, if only for my own record. I keep meaning to do a retrospective catchup but then forget to.


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## Wookii

Andrew Butler said:


> Almost! I think the pictures in the first post are what I had in mind but you're looking to just take up the back and left if I'm reading correctly and infact there wouldn't be any of the front pane obscured at all?



Ah, I see, yes, those images I posted on the first page are probably going to be a little to advanced for me to start with, and I'm not sure how I feel about adding stuff to the front glass. To start with, if I decide to attempt this (and its still an 'if'), I'll just do the rear and one side, perhaps with part of the other side also, I'm not sure.



Andrew Butler said:


> All just open thought and opinion here.......
> I think if you put silicone on the back of the perspex on all 4 edges that you might have a problem getting it off as you are unable to access the sides or bottom to cut them cleanly and maybe also have one side locking the back in.
> Possibly by putting a bead along the top where you could get to trim it cleanly and then putting a bead along the bottom of the structure on the face to keep that in check would work and be hidden by any substrate, I can't see it having much weight to it really and silicone is some string old stuff.
> If you are happy to then silicone up the edge of the side you see, it will protect the glass from any of the substrate you use in the process and should hold things firm.
> 
> Do you think you could make it so the side slid down into the back by creating a rebate? this way you would be able to make the back not as wide and allow you a bit of play.



Thing is the bead of silicone is really more for preventing stagnant water and crud collecting behind the perspex, but I agree with your point, it might make it difficult to remove.



Andrew Butler said:


> How do you see it finishing at the front of the side panel?



With difficulty! lol

I'll need to figure out some sort of transition. I imagine the side panel perspex would need to finish a bit short of the front glass, to allow me to wrap around some of the lava rock. Either that or I finish that end completely flat and sanded with roots and crushed lava rock/particle pressed into it, like it is a true cross sectional cut of the bank.


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## Andrew Butler

Wookii said:


> Thing is the bead of silicone is really more for preventing stagnant water and crud collecting behind the perspex


If you've sealed the insert as a whole and silicone the insert on all the seams and any joints at the face then it should prevent this


Wookii said:


> I'll need to figure out some sort of transition. I imagine the side panel perspex would need to finish a bit short of the front glass, to allow me to wrap around some of the lava rock


I'd favour finishing the side short of the front and instead of it being straight allow the stones to stick in and out a little if that makes sense, I can't find a photo with a quick look but if it doesn't and you want me to look again some time then let me know and I'll have a look when I get the chance.
You could also repeat this a small amount on the other side if that's your thinking.


Wookii said:


> Ah, I see, yes, those images I posted on the first page are probably going to be a little to advanced for me to start with, and I'm not sure how I feel about adding stuff to the front glass


I think it will result in the end life of an aquarium to make it look anything like, I could be wrong though.


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## Wookii

Andrew Butler said:


> If you've sealed the insert as a whole and silicone the insert on all the seams and any joints at the face then it should prevent this



What about the gap between the perspex and the glass though?



Andrew Butler said:


> I'd favour finishing the side short of the front and instead of it being straight allow the stones to stick in and out a little if that makes sense, I can't find a photo with a quick look but if it doesn't and you want me to look again some time then let me know and I'll have a look when I get the chance.
> You could also repeat this a small amount on the other side if that's your thinking.



Yep - we're bang on the same page there I think.


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## Wookii

Not necessarily what I'm looking for here with this muddied river bank idea, but I stumbled across this US firm making what appear to be incredibly realistic backgrounds.









						3D Backgrounds - Aquadecor
					

3D Backgrounds




					aquadecorbackgrounds.com


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## mort

I think aqua decor are actually a serbian company, they just export their creations. I think they have a few distributors but they tend to be pricey.

I'm not sure stagnant water is that much of an issue tbh. If you look at juwel backgrounds they tend to be just spot siliconed on so allow some water behind. I think in the average tank this volume is pretty negligible compared to the volume and I think with your average filtration you will still see minimal water movement unless the entrances are blocked. So if it were me I would just consider silicon spotting the background on unless it was really heavy.


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## Andrew Butler

Wookii said:


> What about the gap between the perspex and the glass though?


If you've sealed all the edges at the fronts/faces of the decor which in itself is sealed then it's irrelevant as I see it - it would rely on the pieces you put in being 100% waterproof though.
Does this make sense?


Wookii said:


> Not necessarily what I'm looking for here with this muddied river bank idea, but I stumbled across this US firm making what appear to be incredibly realistic backgrounds


There's quite a bit of info around on building this type of thing for vivariums/terrariums so depending on how artistic you are they're probably a good place to look but just take more care in what and how you seal it.

I don't think they are meant for being removed which would account for the silicone.


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## not called Bob

Wookii said:


> No, not quite Andrew - it's hard to describe in words. Say you have a EA Aquascaper 900, and you want to make a bank style background to the rear and left side. So, internally the rear pane is around 880 x 440 internally. So my plan would be cut a piece of clear (or maybe black) perspex to maybe 875 x  435, perhaps with a 100mm flange/bend on the base to help it stand and distribute the weight (this would be covered by substrate anyway).
> 
> I would then lay it flat on its back whist constructing the 'bank'. Rough sand it for a good key to the expanding foam, add a layer of the expanding foam a section at a time, and press the lava rock into it. Carve the excess and decorate as detailed above.
> 
> Then once dried, completed and washed, I'd stand the whole thing up on that 100mm flange, and on the rear add a very small very thin and continuous bead of silicone to around all four edges about 25mm in from the edges.
> 
> I'd possibly lay the aquarium on its back, and then lower the 'river bank' background into the tank so the silicone bead forms a seal with the rear glass panel of the tank. Once dried stand the tank back up. Repeat for the side panel - obviously the design of the 'bank', and the flange on the base would need to account for the join/transitions between the side and rear.
> 
> Only thing that might be cause for concern is the weight perhaps.
> 
> Hopefully the thin bead of silicone would prevent water ingress behind the pre-fab backgrounds, and mean to remove them is a matter of slitting that thin silicone bead, and then removing from the tank inner panes in the usual ways.
> 
> Does that make sense? This is all just theory of course at this stage. I will no doubt hit stumbling blocks if/when I attempt it for real, and have to figure out work arounds. In the meantime, I have ordered a few bits to attempt a mini mock up to test the theory.


Think I'd be more concerned about the buoyancy of the item should it come loose. 

It's a interesting idea and the commercial ones all seem to use a formed expanded foam, not sure it's polystyrene as from a frog tank seems more robust to most things that dissolve polystyrene. 

I don't have the model making skills for such an endeavour, but when done well they do look good, especially when incorporated into the rest of the tanks scape and not just left like the photo images of old as a distinct backdrop.


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## Wookii

not called Bob said:


> Think I'd be more concerned about the buoyancy of the item should it come loose.
> 
> It's a interesting idea and the commercial ones all seem to use a formed expanded foam, not sure it's polystyrene as from a frog tank seems more robust to most things that dissolve polystyrene.
> 
> I don't have the model making skills for such an endeavour, but when done well they do look good, especially when incorporated into the rest of the tanks scape and not just left like the photo images of old as a distinct backdrop.



My version if I do it would consist mainly of lava rock, so I don't think it will be bouyant - I don't have the model making skill either to be honest, which is another reason why I'd hope using mainly lava rock with roots attached will get a fairly natural look.

The proof will be in the testing, I'll do a small piece, put it in one in of my tanks, and see how it looks. If it looks crap, then it'll be back to the drawing board.


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## ForestDave

ScareCrow said:


> This might give some ideas for creating a DIY background. Depending on the width of the tank, I'd be tempted to go with a false back. Then you could hide equipment behind your background and you wouldn't need to worry about water becoming stagnant. I have a false back on my current tank and really like it. I hide all of the equipment in one section, there's room for mechanical and biological filtration, I culture blackworms in another section and I have riparium plants growing out of the top.


Could you put a photo up please? I'd love to see that set up.


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## ForestDave

Can't wait to see this Wooki. 
My creation years ago was awkardly carved/built in the tank and looked more like a rejected set from Star Wars. I'd love to have another go one day and do it properly.


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## Wookii

ForestDave said:


> Can't wait to see this Wooki.
> My creation years ago was awkardly carved/built in the tank and looked more like a rejected set from Star Wars. I'd love to have another go one day and do it properly.



😂 Don't hold your breath Dave, mine could well end up looking similar.

I've got the expanding foam in hand now, and I'm waiting on 25Kg of lava rock, so I should be able to have a preliminary test in the next couple of weeks.


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## ScareCrow

ForestDave said:


> Could you put a photo up please? I'd love to see that set up.


I keep meaning to start a journal if only to document things for my own record. I'll try get one setup soon.

I'm also looking forward to seeing how this turns out.


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## ForestDave

Wookii said:


> 😂 Don't hold your breath Dave, mine could well end up looking similar.
> 
> I've got the expanding foam in hand now, and I'm waiting on 25Kg of lava rock, so I should be able to have a preliminary test in the next couple of weeks.


 I have full confidence in your abilities! it's going to be amazing, the tree frogs will be queuing up!!


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## Wookii

ForestDave said:


> I have full confidence in your abilities! it's going to be amazing, the tree frogs will be queuing up!!



Lol no tree frogs - this is all going to be under water - which is probably a good thing, as other hardscape and plant will disguise it somewhat also.


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## zozo

You might like to watch a few of Sasha Hoyer videos...  He's a quite innovative aquascaper... Unfortunately, it's in German but I guess most of it doesn't really need narration to understand what he's doing and give you inspirations.



He has an older video where he's scaping with the use of foam (The yellow one)... But it's quite a while ago and he posts lot's of video's I can't seem to find it back that quick. But I know it's in his youtube channel. I suggest just watch them all... This guy is good at what he does and very versatile too...


			https://www.youtube.com/c/SaschaHoyerAquaArtist/videos


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## Wookii

zozo said:


> You might like to watch a few of Sasha Hoyer videos...  He's a quite innovative aquascaper... Unfortunately, it's in German but I guess most of it doesn't really need narration to understand what he's doing and give you inspirations.
> 
> 
> 
> He has an older video where he's scaping with the use of foam (The yellow one)... But it's quite a while ago and he posts lot's of video's I can't seem to find it back that quick. But I know it's in his youtube channel. I suggest just watch them all... This guy is good at what he does and very versatile too...
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/c/SaschaHoyerAquaArtist/videos




@zozo are you a German speaker? I'm having to rely on YouTube's auto-translate ability, and it's not quite clear what adhesive he's using when he adds the sand - the translator calls it "Trier"? Also any idea what the sand is he's using?

I'm still trying to hunt for the other older video you mention - haven't found it so far. I did find this though - a product I didn't even know existed -  a tempting and simple addition for some above tank growth if I do this muddied river bank design:



Obviously not a new product, as there is a great thread on it here: The Falls - DOOA Wall 60 . . but certainly new to me!


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## Wookii

@zozo . . .  this one?:


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## zozo

Wookii said:


> @zozo are you a German speaker?


Yes, I am...  I'm living all my life so to speak a stone throw away from the German and Belgium border. Meanwhile, my family did spread out over all 3 countries... (Family Multinationale)

Anyway, he's using Cotton balls (Baumwolle) and low viscosity Superglew (Sekundenkleber)... He says nothing about what sand it is... 



Wookii said:


> @zozo . . . this one?:


Yes, I believe so, I thought he was using the yellow one... I could be I've seen someone else using that one in terrarium build. I'm pretty sure both foam colours are identical in composition.








						Polyurethane - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




See this for example. 








						210g biotope paludarium build log
					

Great Job! i'm curious to see how the rest of the project goes...Anyhow...Cheers!:D




					www.dendroboard.com


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## Wookii

So I’ve added considerably to my existing Seiryu stone rock collection for this project:





You can probabaly imagine how pleased the wife is with the new rockery! 😆 

I’m favouring the red lava rock for the muddied river bank, but unfortunately some of the pieces are very red indeed. So I’ve had a go at adding a bit of darker brown tint with some Krylon spray paint:





Left = original colour
Middle = light coat
Right = heavy coat

All three rocks were a similar colour before spraying - and the photo doesn’t really do the level of red colouration justice in the left hand rock. I know the appearance will change again once they are wet and submerged, but what do you guys think?

The most important thing is, you can’t actually tell there is any paint on them, which is a good result.


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## Wookii

Thanks to a very kind donation from @Hufsa I have some roots to start experimenting with:





So although this is very rough and ready, it gives a general gist of what I’m shooting for:





The trick will be making the lava rocks look like a solid river bank with the expanding foam and subsequent decorative layers, and integrating the roots in a way that looks like they’ve occurred naturally.


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## ForestDave

Looking good Wookie. 
I think you should lay the rocks out in the front room, bathroom or on the kitchen worktop, your wife would probably love that! 😂 I hung 10 bikes on our frontroom wall and that went down well!
What about soaking the rocks in tea or something to stain them down a bit?  Not that I know anything though!


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## Paul27

Do you have a idea yet of what sort of fish you would looking to keep when it's all done?


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## Wookii

ForestDave said:


> Looking good Wookie.
> I think you should lay the rocks out in the front room, bathroom or on the kitchen worktop, your wife would probably love that! 😂 I hung 10 bikes on our frontroom wall and that went down well!
> What about soaking the rocks in tea or something to stain them down a bit?  Not that I know anything though!


Good skills Dave 😂 

I’m not sure any staining material would stay, and would just leach back out again. The rocks would likely darken as they age and get covered in bacteria and detritus etc, but I’m impatient so I want it to look right from day one.


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## Wookii

Paul27 said:


> Do you have a idea yet of what sort of fish you would looking to keep when it's all done?



I have stock already in the current tank so they would need to be transferred - Chillis, Embers, Kubotai, and Hasborsus Corys.

If I convince the wife to let me have a 90cm tank, which would give much more room for this design than my current 60cm, then fancy some Nannostomus marginatus as well.


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## Paul27

Wookii said:


> I have stock already in the current tank so they would need to be transferred - Chillis, Embers, Kubotai, and Hasborsus Corys.
> 
> If I convince the wife to let me have a 90cm tank, which would give much more room for this design than my current 60cm, then fancy some Nannostomus marginatus as well.


I do like the Nannostomus marginatus, stay small too. I think the Nannostomus eques would look pretty cool too, they do grow a little bigger though.


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## mort

Not tried marginatus but eques love rooty areas around the top of the tank. I had a group in with thick rooted riparium planting (plants were kept above the water by a thicket of oak twigs and developed a good root system around them) and they were magnificent, that's if you don't mind having to look really hard for your fish. I think marginatus would be more outgoing giving you the best of both worlds.


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## Wookii

mort said:


> Not tried marginatus but eques love rooty areas around the top of the tank. I had a group in with thick rooted riparium planting (plants were kept above the water by a thicket of oak twigs and developed a good root system around them) and they were magnificent, that's if you don't mind having to look really hard for your fish. I think marginatus would be more outgoing giving you the best of both worlds.



Only thing I’m worried about is them jumping, but if I get the green light for a 90 x 60 x 60 I’ll have the water level at about 400mm and emersed growth to the side and rear, so hopefully the extra 200mm of glass might prevent them jumping out.


----------



## mort

My tank was well covered with vegatation around the back of the tank where the pencils hung out but I did have a cover glass along the front which might have stopped any jumping.
My current pencils still hit the lid when the lights go out and I think this is the biggest issue with them. If you have a controllable light that dims to darkness I think it really stops most of their startled leaping.


----------



## Alex Papp

Too little too late, but, I remember a PFK article where they built a catfish cave complex out of a special mud designed for aquariums/ terrariums. It was a Danish brand I think. I'll have a look for that.


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## Wookii

Alex Papp said:


> Too little too late, but, I remember a PFK article where they built a catfish cave complex out of a special mud designed for aquariums/ terrariums. It was a Danish brand I think. I'll have a look for that.



Never too late Alex, nothings set in stone! (Did a you see what I did there! 😂)


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## ScareCrow

It's looking really good so far @Wookii. By the time it has matured a bit in the tank it'll look really natural.

That product sounds really interesting @Alex Papp. If you do find the name of it please share it.


----------



## Paul27

Wookii said:


> Only thing I’m worried about is them jumping, but if I get the green light for a 90 x 60 x 60 I’ll have the water level at about 400mm and emersed growth to the side and rear, so hopefully the extra 200mm of glass might prevent them jumping out.


Just explain to your wife that getting a bigger tank brings you happiness but will also brings happiness to us to 🤣


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## Hufsa

For the greater good!


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## Alex Papp

Wookii said:


> Never too late Alex, nothings set in stone! (Did a you see what I did there! 😂)


After looking through these...I can't find it!! Sorry


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## Wookii

Alex Papp said:


> After looking through these...I can't find it!! Sorry



No worries mate, thanks for looking.


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## Paul27

Any more progress on this @Wookii ?


----------



## Wookii

Paul27 said:


> Any more progress on this @Wookii ?



Not yet Paul - too much life getting in the way at the moment unfortunately.


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## Paul27

Wookii said:


> Not yet Paul - too much life getting in the way at the moment unfortunately.


Look forward to when you will be able to continue


----------

