# Considering moving spray bar to back of tank.



## Bertie

Hi,
I have a Rio 180 and I am considering putting a spraybar across the back of the tank to gain a better and more circular flow, using pipe from FFF. Just one question really.

When I place the spraybar do I place it above or just below the surface of the water for better flow? The tank is in the living room so if I placed above the water level I am concerned about the noise that would create.


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## foxfish

About 25mm below the surface with holes pointing directly toward the front, the water should travel across the surface down the front along the bottom & up the back in a continuous circle .... or least that is the theory LOL
However life is not always so simple as hole spacing, hole size, pump power & planting all have effect of the overall efficiency... however you stand a good chance of getting it close if you revise enough!


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## Bertie

Thanks foxfish.
Yes the efficiency bit does worry me, as instead of having one standard Eheim spraybar at about 34 cm or thereabouts, the power of the flow would be reduced although the turnover of lph would remain the same. Although I have the New Wave 1.6 circ pump and a small submersible pump to utilize.

Also can anyone with experience of doing diy spraybars suggest a suitable hole spacing size for say an 80cm spraybar?


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## ian_m

I extended my spray bar right across the back of my Juwel Vision 180, using a 2nd JBL 22mm spray bar kit to go with my JBL e1500 (1500l/hr) pump. Originally, the supplied spray bar was about 20-30cm short to go all the way across the back of the tank, and it was soon pretty obvious that the plants in the "no spray bar" zone were suffering despite me messing with the Juwel internal filter output and a power head. I also noticed that detritus and other waste tended to collect under the are with no spray bar as well.


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## lurch1000

If you find the hole spacing or size on your spray bar leads to too weak a flow, you can always block holes periodically. I have spray bars across the back firing slightly down towards the front wall so the water gets pushed down and back, and I have a Hydor Pico 650lph head that makes a current across the tank underneath the spray bar flow through the middle of the "circle" if that makes sense. Gets some nice plant movement going.


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## Bertie

Thanks lurch, I think I am understanding you. Have yet to order the pipe...not expensive at FFF but still need to get permission from her who must be obeyed!!


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## lurch1000

I have all pond solutions filters that use a hose close to 16/22mm. I just bought an extra outlet kit for more spray bar sections. My tank is a 120cm Rio 240, and where the inlets have to go, two bars of three sections each make effectively a continuous bar (I don't have the internal filter).

I do think that a single filter with a modest turnover will struggle to power what will be (possibly) a 70cm bar. At 45-50cm each for my bars, I wouldn't like my 1400lph filters to drive it if it was longer without blocking some holes off.


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## Ravenswing

Hi Bertie! I use hydroponic stores often when it comes to fixing/modelling pipes, spraybars etc. They have parts of same size as Eheim (plus dozen other manufactures) use, but muchmuchmuch cheaper. As a long spraybar, for exampel, I use long black rigid hose with self drilled holes. This costs about 2e/m, as different kind of connectors too.


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## Bertie

Hi,
I am using an Eheim Pro3 250 rated at 950lph and I think that my son has a Fluval 204 that he is not using that I could use on the other side but would that cause too much flow confusion?


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## Bertie

Hi Ravenswing, that for that I will have a look.


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## lurch1000

Bertie said:


> Hi,
> I am using an Eheim Pro3 250 rated at 950lph and I think that my son has a Fluval 204 that he is not using that I could use on the other side but would that cause too much flow confusion?


 
You could make two spray bars, and make their respective lengths relative to the filter output. It might help if you can find the filter output value rather than the rated value.


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## Bertie

Hi, I don't know what the true value is but I think Eheim quote figure is based on loaded with media but NOT fully mature media.....If my son does not still have the Fluval 204 I could position my New Wave to go across the back so that the outlet gets a proper mix from most of the tank for filtration purposes? 

The ideal of course is to have two matched filters either side at the back! But we are on pensions so that is not possible unless I win the lottery


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## lurch1000

It was just a thought to throw in the mix. Having a power head to ensure circulation and flow where you need it should be more than adequate, afterall, often is the case that circulation can be achieved without extra unnecessary filters, and power heads often cost less to run.


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## Bertie

All help and suggestions are very welcome. I am finding that growing plants with CO2 very frustrating at the moment with algae,feeding,flow etc confusing to say the least. I actually feel like emptying the tank and starting over but as I have fish that is not an option. When I started the tank 6 months ago I did not intend having live plants so even my substrate is not much good as it is a fair sized gravel. But I am trying to make the best of it.


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## lurch1000

Well, a little time spent now getting it right will leave you plenty of time to enjoy it in the not too distant future.

It's not too bad to do a substrate change if you wanted to. I've done it myself, and if everything is prepared and washed before you actually walk up to the tank, the getting water and fish out, followed by the old substrate can be a fairly swift process. I'd imagine there are threads on it within this forum, just I've not had a look for any.


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## Bertie

Hi,
My son no longer has the Fluval, so here is my plan.

I have two choices as far as I see it 1) Have a diy spray bar along the full length of the back with my two circ pumps,one at either end under the spray bar aimed at the front wall, assisting any lack of flow, and boosting turnover. The problem I see with this is that the outlet will be taking water from only one end so therefore not changing all of the water overtime.

2) Have a diy spray bar along the full length of the back but with a circ pump low down directing flow along the back towards the outlet, but will that significantly alter the circular movement of the water?
Any thoughts please?


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## lurch1000

Spray bar at back, circulation pump at opposite end to intake, positioned nearer the back wall pushing towards the inlet? Should hopefully have little effect in the circular motion then.


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## scuttler

If you make a DIY spray bar. Ensure the area of the holes you drill are equal to or greater than the area on the original filter pipe. If you do not it will restrict your flow.

I did a custom bar. Its works a treat, get CO2 bubbles everywhere.


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## Bertie

Hi scuttler,
Thanks for that. I am not a very practical person and to be totally honest, I am not totally sure what you exactly mean?


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## John S

Bertie said:


> Hi scuttler,
> Thanks for that. I am not a very practical person and to be totally honest, I am not totally sure what you exactly mean?


 
There's a thread here that explains it Bertie:

Eheim 2260 - Custom Intake & Spray Bar | UK Aquatic Plant Society


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## Bertie

Thanks for that davem.....maths....my worse subject.....I know that the radius of 16mm is 8mm.............I think I will speak to my grandson when I see him sometime and get him to work it out for me!!


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## John S

Bertie said:


> Thanks for that davem.....maths....my worse subject.....I know that the radius of 16mm is 8mm.............I think I will speak to my grandson when I see him sometime and get him to work it out for me!!


 
I had to go through it a few times myself.


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## Bertie

Well will not see my Grandson for a while but googled it and if the answer is right it is 200.96
.If it is not right I will be stuffed!


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## Bertie

Well I will have to guess I suppose, I tried working it out and it was telling my that the holes should be 8mm..... Can you tell that I left school at aged 14? and failed my 11 plus.


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## Bertie

May have got it....am going for 30 holes...8 x 8 x 3.14 is 200.96 /30 is 6.69/3.14 is 2.13 square root is 1.46 x 2 is 2.9 so will drill holes of 3mm


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## John S

Your calculations look about right.

Don't forget if you are using 22/16 hose the rigid pipe inside diameter is 14mm.


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## Bertie

My spray bar is going to be 90cm and my hose is 16/22 and have ordered 16mm pipework


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## John S

When you drill I'd be cautious and start with maybe 2mm or 2.5mm holes. You can always open them up if need be.


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## Bertie

Thanks dave...that is what I am going to do start with 2mm and open up if necessary...thanks again.

Incidentally the pipework has been dispatched.


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## foxfish

I would space 15 x 2mm holes to start with as you want to have some pressure behind the system.
Theses formulas are ok but in the real world may not work!
Drilling holes is one aspect dealt with but have you thought how to bend the pipe into the tank, how to hold it in place & how to stop up the far end?


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## Bertie

Hi foxfish, Thanks yes will start with 15...I have got elbows on order and end stops and I have assorted clips and suckers.


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## Bertie

Just another thought. Would I need to use two diffusers either end underneath the spraybar or one central under it? I have one 2.5cm ceramic diffuser which is very good. I also have a nano diffuser which throws out quite largish bubbles but would do at a pinch. If two I would have to get a T or a Y piece.


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## lurch1000

May be a case of deploying the power head to take care of that one. Co2 rich water will be taken up by the intake and recirculated anyway.


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## Bertie

thanks lurch...I will order some Y pieces just in case...and suppose I best get a pair of matching diffusers at a later stage when the wife releases some pocket money to me out of the pension


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## Bertie

Just a quick update...

I have not received my pipework yet from FFF, it was dispatched on 22nd....the postage was more than the items ordered, and I received an ebay item yesterday, which was sent the same day 2nd class!!

I will update when pipework arrives and manage to do it.

If it does not arrive I will have to think again.


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## Bertie

well that was a big fail.... I said I was not a very practical person....got the pipework this afternoon...spent a lot of time aligning and drilling holes. The elbow would not fit the shepherds crook, but I overcame that by connecting the elbow to shepherds crook together with hose. Then the crook would not go back far enough to be able to attach to back wall. 

Cannot really connect with just using hose as the Eheim hose is pretty inflexible, even when trying to bend with a copper pipe spring bender.

More money down the drain. I shall have to save the money for another filter or put one on my christmas list (I know it is early to think about that)  or try and think of a way round the problem.


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## John S

Is the crook hitting a wall or something then Bertie?


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## Bertie

Partly that, and it also does not go low enough.... As I ordered more pipe and elbows than needed,I am thinking of solvent welding on piece to one of the elbows and then connecting the inlet hose directly to that. Then connecting a piece of pipe to that elbow then adding another elbow to that and the spraybar.

If you understand me? Something like a Z but wondering whether that would restrict the flow too much or not. The other alternative is buying an Installation set whatever number the pressure side is ie; set 1 or 2.


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## John S

I had similar problems in that the lip at the top of my tank meant that fixing to the back glass was difficult. This picture doesn't look too pretty but while I was experimenting I ended up with something like this:





Don't know if this is of any help to you?


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## Bertie

Hi dave...yes it has given me another way to go....thanks


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## John S

Bertie said:


> Hi dave...yes it has given me another way to go....thanks


 
I managed to tidy mine up by using a rubber elbow that I had on an Aqua one tank. Will take a picture later.


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## Bertie

I think, as I bought two metres of pipe,I will cut the shepherds crook where it bends, so that it hangs straight down. Join it to a short length of pipe with some hose.
Connect a 90 deg elbow to that and directly to my extended spray bar.

I will get everything ready and do it a bit later today.

Sods Law though, I adjusted the powerhead last nigh,t and the flow seems much improved now! I will give it a few hours when the CO2 is running and make a final decision mid afternoon. Thanks for the help.


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## John S

its always the way. Report back on what you decide.


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## Bertie

Well that was interesting!! The spraybar worked ok....good circulation back to front but......and a big but the CO2 was not really getting circulated.

So I put the spraybar on the side again with powerheads and back to as was. I will have to research purchasing, if there is such a thing, a connection for the regulator that allows two connections so that I can have one either end of the tank. The fish are now going to be terrified of me with all the messing about I have been doing. All in all I am quite disappointed.


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## foxfish

So Bert, do you use an external power filter?


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## Bertie

Hi foxfish...Yes I use an Eheim Pro3 250


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## foxfish

OK then why not direct the Co2 directly into the filter inlet & then it will dissolve inside the filter & be distributed via the spry bar?


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## Bertie

I thought that could damage the impeller and rubber seals etc?


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## foxfish

Dont concern yourself with that mate, there are loads of folk who have been doing just that for years with no ill effects.
I guess there is a small possibility the gas could perish the seals but it definitely wont happen over night!


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## Bertie

Thanks...so how do I go about it? Just aim the diffuser at the outlet? Or shove the co2 tube into the bottom of the outlet pipe?


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## foxfish

Shove it up the pipe - or what I have done in the past, is just fixed the C02 line end a few mm under the inlet - close enough to get sucked up but with enough room to see & count the bubbles.


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## Bertie

Thanks foxfish....will have a go in the week I think the fish and my other half have had enough of me and the tank today.


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## foxfish

Ha Ha yes I think we all know that issue!
From my experience small tanks with a spray bar & power filter are a piece of cake to run successfully but anything over 60lt takes a bit of patience to get right....
If it is any consolation my main hobby is playing the didgeridoo & believe me I dont get away with much practice time when she is at home LOL..


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## lurch1000

Plenty may do it, but you run the risk of noise from cavitation.

IMO if you're going to do CO2 with an external, get an inline diffuser designed for the job.


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## foxfish

Lurch, you may be right but then Bert would need a high pressure reg & he would have a tank full of bubbles - Bert is a pensioner & that might be an unessary cost for him too!
I would say inline diffusers cause more problems post on this forum than any other form of dissolveing the C02 there is!
Fine if you have the experience & equipment to run one but in Berts cast it must be woth a try to run his gas into the filter as so many other guys are doing without any cavitation or other issues?


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## Bertie

Hi and thanks all for the help...I don't know what to do at the moment, so will leave as is for the time being and will try again during the summer. The really good thing about it on the back wall was that I could actually see the circulation in action.

The drawback on how I have it now, is that although all of the plants are moving, there is still a lot of movement in the upper part of the tank and not so much lower down and the plants look more "windswept".


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## Bertie

Hi all,
I am still not happy with my flow/distribution. I am seriously thinking of giving the long back spraybar another go but have some questions. 

Firstly as the filter is only an Eheim Pro 3 250 with a stated rate of 950 lph, it will obviously be less than that. I have a 800/1600 New Wave Circ pump and a cheap 200 lph submersible. If I used these two  in conjunction with the spray bar, and as they all have different flow rates would it have an adverse affect?

Secondly with only one inlet pipe in one corner, would that create any bias?

Third and most importantly. As the co2 diffuser was not very good under the long spray bar, if I purchased an aquamedic reducing T -bar, would that affect the filter badly and would I need to remove the filter floss? Or would it be better to wait until I could afford say a UP inline diffuser and connect that to the inlet tube? 

I think the wife is getting really fed up with me keep spending money on the tank!


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## Bertie

Wel,l I have just inserted the co2 line directly into the filter pipe ..what a mess I made, bits of plants floating everywhere I will adjust the bps right down from 4bps to 1bps to start with when the co2 comes on at 9am...if this does not work I will use an up inline diffuser when the wife releases funds! Don't know how efficient they are though...have done google and there seems to be conflicting reports.


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## John S

Bertie, what size is your piping? I might have an UP I'm not currently using I could loan you if you'd like to try it before spending any more money?


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## Bertie

Morning dave, thanks for the offer, how did you find the diffuser? I have read on google, that some people find they produce a milky appearance to the water, and others that they have to clean them on a very regular basis.

My hose is 16/22...at the moment I am waiting for the clock to tick to 9am when the co2 kicks on...I have left the filter floss in the filter for now.


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## foxfish

Bert, do you realise that you need a high pressure adjustable regulator to get any success out of an UP?
Just do as so many others do & feed directly into the filter!


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## Bertie

Hi foxfish, not did not realize that...my regulator is not adjustable...I have inserted the co2 line into the filter pipe in the tank and waiting for 9am for the co2 to switch on. Then I will start at 1 or 2bps and see how it goes. At the moment I have not removed the filter floss and hope that does not cause a build up of co2 in the filter.


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## John S

Bertie said:


> Morning dave, thanks for the offer, how did you find the diffuser? I have read on google, that some people find they produce a milky appearance to the water, and others that they have to clean them on a very regular basis.
> 
> My hose is 16/22...at the moment I am waiting for the clock to tick to 9am when the co2 kicks on...I have left the filter floss in the filter for now.


 
I found it good. You can see your flow pattern and where the CO2 is going. I'm still using one, the other is just a spare and would fit your set up.

As Foxfish has mentioned you will need to run above 2bar to get this to work. Do you know if your reg has adjustable working pressure? If not just try going straight into the filter as Foxfish says. The important thing is to give any changes you make a bit of time so that everything settles down.


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## John S

Looks like we were replying at the same time. What is your reg by the way?


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## Bertie

Hi Dave....my reg is not adjustable and appears to be working at 40 psi if that is accurate!! I am not certain it is as when  I changed over to the FE...it was still showing 40 psi when I was disconnected from the co2 bottle.


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## Bertie

I have a reg/solenoid from CO2 supermarket! it think it is just a generic chinese one. My eyes are not that clever but I think it says I-ISL.


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## foxfish

40 psi is about 3bar so that would be fine, its just that not many folk stick to useing up's for long as they can be pretty fickle to get right & do indeed fill the tank with microbubbles...however they are very efficient if you can get one working for any length of time!
I would feed into your power filter & out into the spray bar, place the power heads under the spray bar facing to the front.
As we know every tank is different but in my 200lt tank the bubble count is just a blur, my fish are fine & the plants grow very fast!
You might have to up your bubble rate slowly but if you were using 4 bps before then expect to use at least that again..


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## Bertie

thanks foxfish....at the moment I am feeding 3bps directly into the filter.....will let it run at that for a couple of hours and check the DC and ph and adjust....unless of course the fish show distress! Good to know that if needed there should be enough pressure for a UP inline although I am not sure about a "milky" look in the tank.


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## John S

I think your reg is an HSL one. See how you go with straight injection and if you want to try the UP I can post it too you. Then you can evaluate it and decide if you want to buy one.


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## Bertie

Thanks Dave yes I will see how it goes....Thought by injecting directly into the filter I would use less CO2....at the moment I have turned my bps rate up to what I was using previously 4 bps? I thought it would be less as more CO2 would be diffused?


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## John S

Are you testing by PH readings or just the drop checker?


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## Bertie

both dave...I will check again at 3pm but the last time it was between 6.8 and 7ppm.....DC is green but a dark green...the co2 is deffo going in the filter as I can see the bubbles going up the pipe!


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## Bertie

Well I have upped the rate to about 6 bps, difficult to count properly, and all was ok until this afternoon. I have had 4 or 5 small burps or maybe could call them hiccups  I will see how it goes over the next day or so...I do not want to risk damaging my filter..not at the prices that they charge for Eheim spares. Should I leave the filter floss in or remove it?


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## foxfish

You wont damage the filter short term but you might of found the limit it can handle regarding the gas flow.
If that is the case try 5bps.
You might get better performance by removing the floss but I would give it at least few days at 5bps & see how it goes.


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## Bertie

Hi foxfish,
Yes I have just turned the co2 off...the spraybar just started throwing out quite a few bubbles every 45secs or so...will turn it down to 5bps tomorrow and see how it goes as I do not really want to gas my fish  thought I had found an economical way of diffusing the co2.. it generally goes off at 5pm so only an hour early.


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## foxfish

The principle works OK but you really need a bigger filter with a faster flow to get the best from this method. not to say it wonk work though.....


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## Bertie

Bit of an update...........I forgot to turn the bps down and at the moment (touch wood) I have not had any burping! I wonder whether yesterday it was caused when I had to disconnect the outflow from the aquarium, to retrieve a large leaf that had travelled down the hose? The hose had to initially suck up air when I restarted the filter and that may have been swirling around the filter?


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## Bertie

Spoke too soon.. Should have kept my mouth shut...It has just started!! I will turn it down in the morning...I will leave a great big note on my laptop that even I could not miss and try again tomorrow!


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## Bertie

Well two days at 5 bps and no burping!!
Just see what happens this weekend as Friday I am due to do some filter cleaning.

My son also presented me with another Newave 1.6 powerhead ..nice flow but the fish seem to now spend 80% of their time down the opposite end of the tank. I also have noticed two small deadspots at the far end corners! But if I go another week without any filter problems I will then move to the long spray bar at the back of the tank.

Couple of questions though. Will the two powerheads a) not be too strong set at the lower 800 lph? and b) will just two powerheads be enough? I do have a rather ugly 200lph submersible if needed!


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## Bertie

It has started burping again and it seems to be linked to filter maintenance....I changed the filter floss this morning and I had to re-syphon and restart the filter.
It started about 7hrs after the co2 was switched on. If it follows the previous pattern then it will do the same tomorrow and then settle down. I will keep a close eye on my fish and if it carries on beyond two days I will have to look at a UP Inline diffuser.


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## Bertie

Well I have now put the long spray bar along the back now. I fitted an UP Inline diffuser (although I think it is a copy) and have put one New Wave 1.6 pump, running at 800lph at either end under the spray bar, and one small 200lph cheapo submersible in the middle. The spray bar is approx 2 - 3 inches below water level.
Not sure about the flow just yet and my god the grey spraybar and the powerheads are in "your face" a bit. I shall, at a later stage have to change the grey to green.
Just got to see how everything goes now.


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## ceg4048

You should move the spraybar as close as possible to the surface.

Cheers,


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## Bertie

Ah ok...thanks very much ceg...will do that now!


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