# Leaving hobby or move to Low Tech (260 litre bow fronted tank)



## Pinkmummy79

Hi

My 260 l fluval vicenza is curently set up in high tech mode running co2 through 2 x UP inlines (2KG FE) and dosing ei daily, I also spot dose liquid carbon daily as have ongoing BBA issues which I have been unable to eradicate for the past 12 months.  So I am now considering either the possibility of shutting the tank down for good or hopefully changing to less weekly work and tinkering and hopefully start to enjoy it more with a low tech planted tank.

I am just starting to look into the possibility of a change over and what I will need to do so I know it's not gonna happen this weekend, just ensuring I am ready and know what I need to change etc even if this isn't for another month.  I'll have to look at removing the circulation pump and list my plants and replace some I understand this, it's just that I usually do my weekly 130 litre water change on a saturday evening when the kids are in bed and the co2 has gone off (usually 9.30pm start) this with any filter and pipe work/spray bay maintenance, pruning, glass cleaning together with a C02 leak this past weekend saw me get to bed just gone 4am Sunday morning, I can't be doing with this anymore as I haven't sat down on my sofa and watched tv on a Saturday evening for over a year, i'm losing the love for it... so I either shut it down for good and leave the hobby of move to a low tech set up with less work.  Hope you good peaple can help me.  

I have a few questions if that's ok.

Lighting - my existing lighting is 2 x 39 w T5 tubes within the tank's lighting unit, with it being 260 litres I calculate this to be 1.14 wpg, I already have the reflectors removed as have been trying to battle BBA.  My tank is quite deep in that it is 64cm tall and also has a curved front so it's not been ideal to ensure flow and circulation are optimised, currently have 2 JBL e1501 filters running spray bars from the rear to the front and also have squeazed in a newave circulation pump 1600 lph in between the spraybars, also facing frontwards.   If I went low tech, without changing the light fittings would I be better off using a lower wattage T5 such as 2 x 21 watt T5 available from Lampspecs which are the corect lenght for fitting into my light unit?  I calc this to be approx 0.61 wpg, or is this a tad too low bearing in mid the depth of water?  T8 bulbs won't fit my light unit and I don't really want to be splashing out on new lights just at the moment, so LED tiles are out for the moment.

My substrate is akadama clay, I presume I can retain this?  there are some osmocote slow release ferts somewhere within this base, would I need to find these and remove them?

Would I need to gradually cut down on my ferts before ceasing all together or can I go cold turkey and just stop, likewise for the C02?  I expect I will have an algal bloom doing this, I'm sure some of you have also been in a similar position and could share some pointers to help me decide, ideally I'd like a smaller more manageable tank, but at the moment I have what I have and either make the most of it or....well, i'd rather carry on with a reduction in work as i't taking up any spare time I have. 
Thanks for any help
ta
Clive


----------



## Henry

I feel your pain. I gave up on large high tech tanks due to the maintenance required and the constant battle to keep things optimum.

Don't worry too much about lighting being too low; I've managed to grow a variety of plants with light from a north-facing window on the other side of the room, albeit very slowly. If anything, you could even use the existing lights with a dense covering of floating plants.

Do some research on using soil as a base layer. These types of tanks with low light are by far the easiest and most foolproof planted tanks you can set up. You can just dig out your current substrate, put a layer of soil at the bottom, then cover it with your existing stuff. The only thing to consider is the type of soil to use, but there is a great deal of information on the subject on this and many other forums. They're pretty much "plant it and leave it" tanks if you put a little consideration into them in the first place. The extra flow won't do them any harm either.

With regards to fertiliser, search "Duckweed index" and go from there. The soil substrate will provide most of what the plants need, but there's no harm in supplementing it.

Chin up


----------



## Arne

Hello Clive,

I would first just decrease ferts by 70-80% and leave it for about a month. For me this got rid of the BBA, and staghorn! 
You could then gradually turn down the CO2 and see where that takes you. If you can turn it off completely without any major problems that's great, but if you're tempted to leave it on "low" you can still keep the plants happy


----------



## Henry

Arne said:


> Hello Clive,
> 
> I would first just decrease ferts by 70-80% and leave it for about a month. For me this got rid of the BBA, and staghorn!
> You could then gradually turn down the CO2 and see where that takes you. If you can turn it off completely without any major problems that's great, but if you're tempted to leave it on "low" you can still keep the plants happy



This is a sure-fire way to create an algae farm!


----------



## Tim Harrison

I'd just tear it all down and start from scratch using soil as a base substrate. Taking your time to set it up properly from the outset will save you an enormous amount of time and hassle in the future, just like Henry suggests. 
Your plants will be fine going cold turkey, sure you'll probably experience some melt but usually new growth keeps apace. As for lighting, a bit of experimentation will probably be needed before you hit upon the winning formula - is it possible to use 1x39w and 1x21w? If not 2x21w would be infinitely preferable, and you have the option of reattaching the reflectors as well if need be.


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Well here's a couple of quick snaps, sorry I don't have a better camera but my phones ok, so you can see the tank size.  The past 18 months have been a blast and certainly a quick learning curve with all my info gained from ukaps 
Time is precious with small children in the house so many thanks for all your replies and advice so far, I'm inclined to lean towards stripping it down and putting some dirt of choice in, a chance to rekindle my interest and learn a new approach 

Troi ,  I've always admired your smaller tanks and this is also an option, to sell what I have and replace with one or two more manageable sized items.  I've enough c02 for the next 2 months so still time to think, read up and decide what's best for a longer term approach to keep my interest, I like shrimp so just maybe a couple of nice matching side by side optiwhite nano tanks will be my bag.
If you can foresee what could be achieved with my 260 bow front, then shout out ideas please, such as removing the huge bogwood cave for example.
If going low tech with dirt and keeping the big tank, I know I'll need to rehome a few fish, a bristlenose who likes digging and a pair of gourami who ate my shrimp
If I sold the tank, both jbl filters, jbl reg , splitter and ferts etc this could help towards a pair of nice nano tanks filters and shrimp.
Lots to decide on thanks again
Clive

Sent from my LT30p using Tapatalk


----------



## Henry

Small high techs can be a bum ache too, you know. Granted they're lower volume, but the maintenance schedule is the same, and the potential for algae problems is just as high. You might also miss the presence of a big tank, and the immersive feeling you get when looking into it. 

I'd think carefully before selling the equipment you have, as you'll potentially lose around half the value, with no guarantee of success with your smaller tank. Perhaps spend £50 on a cheap Clearseal nano, filter, and light, and transfer your CO2 equipment over to it and see how you get on. Once again, I can't stress enough the benefits of a soil based low-tech tank.


----------



## tam

I don't see why you couldn't keep the tank and the fish and go low tech. The bristle nose is a nice algae eater and will help iron out any bumps.  If you want to go for soil then do, but you don't have to. Plenty of people cope just fine on gravel only. Just lower your light, pop ferts in now and then and swap out any plants that would have a job coping low tech. That would the main thing to decide, what isn't likely to do well low tech, then you can sell them while they are healthy before you switch. Make the changes and put some different ones in.

I don't even mind the wood cave, I just think it needs to swing around slightly and move to one side so it's a little less prominent, maybe some nice stem plants behind to soften it up a bit.


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Henry said:


> Small high techs can be a bum ache too, you know. Granted they're lower volume, but the maintenance schedule is the same, and the potential for algae problems is just as high. You might also miss the presence of a big tank, and the immersive feeling you get when looking into it.
> 
> I'd think carefully before selling the equipment you have, as you'll potentially lose around half the value, with no guarantee of success with your smaller tank. Perhaps spend £50 on a cheap Clearseal nano, filter, and light, and transfer your CO2 equipment over to it and see how you get on. Once again, I can't stress enough the benefits of a soil based low-tech tank.



Hi and thanks Henry, I understand you about the smaller high tech tanks not being a definitive success, sorry my intention is to go low, quite low, probably soil based, maybe hob filter, aquaball or similar but more low tech, sitting looking at where the existing tank is, if we had a nice unit I could happily see a pair of 30 l tanks in its place, side by side with say some peace lily's or similar flora sprouting out the open tops.
Much pondering I must sleep now 

Sent from my LT30p using Tapatalk


----------



## Martin in Holland

Don't give up mate. I've been there and nearly gave up and I see many awesome low tech tanks. At the moment I don't focus on getting crazy plants but just on plants that grow in my setting...I think you don't need novelty plants to make a nice looking tank anymore, just green that looks healthy.
Hang in there....


----------



## nickmcmechan

If keeping up maintenance is the issue I would go low tech.

Soil at the bottom an inch thick capped with sand up to the sane depth

Use some root feeders, such as crypts, swords. Some stems, such as hygro sp and some floaters such as frogbit. Plant very very heavily from the outset.

Re-use your existing filter media so the tank settles quickly but be aware you may have to increase your maintenance for the first few weeks, would recommend considering 50% daily scale week one, every other day week two, twice in week 3 and a 75% change in week 4, with frequent testing for ammonia. Use this as a plan to start with but Flex this as appropriate, you may need less. You will likely not need to dose ferts, but your frogbit will tell you that anyway by its condition.

After that, only occasionally water changes or top ups. Feed fish well, twice a day, allow the excess mulm to feed the plants


----------



## Arne

Henry said:


> This is a sure-fire way to create an algae farm!



that's a possibility, but how would you explain it solved 100% of my algae problems?


----------



## Edvet

Hey Clive,
i went from high tech to low tech a few weeks ago when my CO2 ran out unexpectedly (i use 10kg bottles and couldn't get one fast).
I hiked my lights up (in your case remove one) added floaters to block more light, and halved my feeding regime. Gradually my tank is getting better and better. I was Always battling BBA, it is gradually getting less and less. Plantgrowth has slowed, but the leaves are healthy so i have no worries.
Try it, i would say.


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Edvet said:


> Hey Clive,
> i went from high tech to low tech a few weeks ago when my CO2 ran out unexpectedly (i use 10kg bottles and couldn't get one fast).
> I hiked my lights up (in your case remove one) added floaters to block more light, and halved my feeding regime. Gradually my tank is getting better and better. I was Always battling BBA, it is gradually getting less and less. Plantgrowth has slowed, but the leaves are healthy so i have no worries.
> Try it, i would say.


 
Hi Edvet,

I definately decided on a low tech approach.

I should use the existing tank and filters and not get carried away with additional shrimp nano's, this can be another project for another time.

So, I need to check my light unit tonight to see if it will still work with a single tube, if not I will order a pair of the Sylvania T5 21 Watt tubes 849mm from Lampspecs as they are only £2.76 inc vat!!  I can add back my reflectors if need be or even mix my tubes with one of each 39 Watt and 21 watt to give me some flexibility with the lighting until I find the sweet spot.

I'm really tempted to strip down and go with a soil based approach, I need to read up more on this and see what soil to use, I know Alastair has used the original aquatic soil I think if I remember correctly, I would most likely then top this with my existing akadama and plant, the bristlenose while yes I agree is a nice addition to the tank and does munch away on algae will dig deeply, obvioulsy with a soil base layer this will be a right mess so he'll most likely be re homed locally, I actuallty do have the following 2 weeks off work at home so it would be ideal time for me to tackle this tank, I need to order the tubes and decide on my soil choice.

I'm planning to continue to use the same two filters and media, I'll follow the water change cycle of the initial 4-6 weeks too, i'm just looking forward to a long term tank I can enjoy without the necessity of 4 hours maintenance each saturday night, without the C02 I can also do any maintenance during the daytime as previously I have waited until the C02 had finished it's on period for the day.

Thanks
Clive


----------



## sciencefiction

+1 on the soil substrate. Just use plain top soil from the garden centre that has no chemicals or manure and such added. 1 inch soil and a cap of your choice. I've used two types of garden soils with no problem but can't recall from the top of my head what they are.
Do a few extra and big water changes at the start while the soil settles because of the fish and then maybe small weekly ones. The results even with a bumpy start, are always positive long term.
I would keep the two filters running as they are. I would not change the lights at all. Removing the reflectors is fine, lower the spraybars a bit, or at least one of them so you can put floaters like frogbit and salvinia and use that at the start to block light leaving them to cover 2/3rds and also as someone mentioned as an indication of ferts regime. However, do not leave the surface completely still, especially at the start as while the organics in the soil are breaking down the tank needs lots of oxygen to do so.
I'd start from around 7hrs a day light with lots of floaters which should overgrow in a weak time, make sure to remove all algae ridden plants from the previous setup so you start clean. Monitor daily at the start, if any algae of any sort appears, lower the light duration, if not, leave it and see if you want experimenting to increase it to 8 max depending on plant mass.   Have some slow growers/heavy rooters like echnidorus and cryps and have fast growers like stems as well at least at the start because the soil will be rich and you need something mopping all available stuff fast. After everything grows in in 2-3 months, you can remove the fast growers as they can overtake the tank and are high maintenance depending on the plant type.
I am so far moving into the 2nd year bracket with 2 of my soil tanks and its a breeze to keep them and  plants are growing healthy without any messing, no algae, no cleaning the glass and I trim/prune whenever I feel like though if left it for a couple of months or more it does get very overgrown so I just snip stuff here and there when I think of it.  So far I've only needed to add potassium nitrate and nothing else but I do weekly water changes and have a ton of emersed tropical plants but I only add 4-5ppm weekly, that's it, to stop it going down to 0 and I only started that after the first year as the emersed plants became huge mopping the natural ferts too fast. My other tank doesn't need any ferts.
The pleco and your other fish should be no bother. My bristlenose used to be a digger in another tank but he has not dug into the soil in his current tank for the last year and a half.   He'd appreciate the driftwood to stay in the tank though 

Good luck.


----------



## Pinkmummy79

What a fantastic reply Sciencefiction

Thanks for this, most helpful, I actually have an unopened bag of Homebase top soil at home, would mineralizing this for a month prior to going into the tank give me less issues with transferring the fish back in, my thinking that if so, once it has been mineralized I can strip the tank down, add the mineralized soil, add back my akadama as a cap, plant and add my fish back very quickly and also my filters should be good to go still if not disturbed, I could do all this in a couple of hours hopefully and in the meantime my tank can run as it is as I have plenty of Co2 to keep me going for a good while, I will need to make a shopping list for lights plants etc, never used floaters before, as my tank has it's own lighting unit which is fitted close to the water's surface (I can't raise it) would this be ok for the floating plants being so close to the light?
One more quick question, after reading Troi's detailed instructions on setting up a soil based tank, I could use some of the soil retainer mesh which would hopefully negate any mess if the Pleco decided to continue digging.
looks like my supply of ei salts may last me a very long time now
Cheers


----------



## sciencefiction

Pinkmummy79 said:


> would mineralizing this for a month prior to going into the tank give me less issues with transferring the fish back in,



Yes, if mineralized you should have no issues adding the fish straight in. I got no spikes with mineralized soil and I prefer to mineralize the soil.
As for the mesh retainer, I remember discussing this with Troi in some other thread and I am personally against it but he says its fine too. I don't use that, I see no reason why at all honestly.[DOUBLEPOST=1407852014][/DOUBLEPOST]By the way, mineralized soil doesn't make the same big mess as unmineralized one. It also won't float because the process of mineralizing removes the easy floating particles. When I mineralize, I soak, let is settle for a while, then pour out all stuff that is still floating, then I dry, then soak again, pour all floating stuff, etc... What you are left with settles in no time even if disturbed, unless you dig up the entire tank of course and even then it clears. Also I reckon there's less/ no algae issues when the soil is mineralized but you lose some soil while mineralizing it like that.


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Cool, sounds like a plan to me, I can think about plants and layout in the meantime, lower wattage t5's ordered today so ball rolling now

Sent from my LT30p using Tapatalk


----------



## Henry

Welcome to the lazy world of low-tech tanks


----------



## sciencefiction

It sounds like a good plan to me.



Pinkmummy79 said:


> my tank has it's own lighting unit which is fitted close to the water's surface (I can't raise it) would this be ok for the floating plants being so close to the light?



You have to try and see, depends how strong the light is. Fluorescents aren't a problem but my LEDs can burn plants.  If you are downgrading the light tubes then you may not need that much floaters but they are very helpful upon initial setup and I wouldn't skip them. The only issue with them is getting wet on the top leaves either from being submerged from the surface movement or condensation as they don't like it and will die eventually like that.
And overgrown low tech tank can take a lot of light. Issue with light is when the tank is half empty, not fully planted or grown and light is blazing strong but when the plants start overgrowing the tank, reaching the surface, overshadowing each other, floaters not removed promptly(remember...low maintenance ...some of us forget to prune lol) then it can take a lot of light and some shadowed plants actually suffer if one can't actually experiment with the light a bit.   You go too low, and some plants can't grow properly. Obviously if you go too high and algae can appear. One just needs common sense  and closely monitor the plants and glass for any minimal algae signs, but don't be afraid of light in a low tech as all plants need light and there's is a bottom limit too to actually grow some more light demanding plants in a low tech so I'd take this in mind when choosing plant position. The soil provides the co2 for the plants as the organics break down, which organics are replaced via fish food and poop. The plants may go through melting, adjustment period etc...but they will adapt in a few weeks during which period you need at least some healthy fast growers and floaters. Your good filtration and flow will spread the co2 produced around and is a very good thing even in a low tech tank.


----------



## Henry

I agree with the above, but you'd be very surprised to find just how little light species like Cryptocoryne and Hygrophila need to grow. Often, ambient light is enough to keep them going at a minimal pace.


----------



## sciencefiction

I'd want to see a healthy growing tank on an ambient light. I've got the complete opposite experience and I can spot light deficient plants very easy now after initially starting myself with "low light" and seeing limited results. I've seen them lots on people's pictures of low techs too.
 I have kept hydrophila and crypts as well. The hydrophila is impossible to kill no matter what, but if one wants it to grow healthy, it needs its light and likes ferts. Otherwise it just hangs on surviving, typical signs are smaller leaves and lower leaves dropping off/falling apart, takes months to grow to the top, etc..
My crypts, anubias and java fern were the only somewhat unaffected plants when my led lights started failing one by one. By the time all failed, I was left with a complete meltdown of around 20 species of plants, the anubias, java fern and crypts were fine but they just stopped growing literally.

I actually made a couple of pictures a while ago as my tank is back in with some light after the meltdown, the affect of it on a couple of species of plants under better and lower light below(post #19). I must take a few more of the vallis which also refuses to grow under very low light, it constantly goes brown but grows perfectly fine with more light. So there's a lower limit.

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/peace-lilly-pollen-poisonous-to-fish.33441/


----------



## roadmaster

Well ,I too have and continue to use the minimum lighting needed for initial set up and include lots of plant's.
After a few week's perhaps a couple month's,I may try and increase the lighting in my low tech tanks by an hour or two.
Much more interested in algae free start up than how much light can I get way with at the outset.
 My 80 gal low tech with crytpts,anubia,lace java fern, leopard vals.water sprite, did fine for a year with just three T8 bulbs 32 watt.
Tank now has four 54 watt T5 bulbs hanging ten inches above the waters surface with eight hour photo period and does equally well if not a little better and no algae.
If I try and lower the light or increase photoperiod,I get algae but that is just MY tank .
Am happy with low tech  where growth is measured in week's,month's.


----------



## sciencefiction

See, there's a difference between minimum light and optimum light.  And one can be fine with certain light and duration but even an extra half an hour can cause issues or algae, or half an hour less would be too low.  Its a thin line but certainly very low light is not a solution to everything and is a cause of problems in low techs as much as too much light is.

That tank below as I mentioned in my previous post is running on way lower light it used to when it flourished. I just can't afford to change or increase the light this time. I said I'd take a picture of vallis under minimum light and vallis under some light, as the tank is at the moment.

Picture one from the same tank, left side where light does penetrate the water




 

Picture 2 below from the right side of the same tank, taken seconds after the above one. That below is about the growth of vallis in shade in very low light obstructed by emersed plants. The tips always melt and its not spreading, just about surviving. The rest of the plants except anubias, have literally disappeared and I can't remember ripping them off.  Even the java fern in there is just hanging on. That's about as bright as it gets there on currently 12 hours a day light above


----------



## Richardbunting

I just switched the co2 off and hoped for the best, all i did different was remove a bulb from my light fitting and took referance of tom barrs par chart.i also nuked any initial algal growth until things settled down, other than that everything is going extremely well, even the fish are happy!


----------



## Pinkmummy79

So I've taken on board advice and suggestions and in readiness for changing to a lower light set up with soil, no pressurised c02 I have made a couple of initial alterations to the tank.
Water change last night, I'm still currently running c02 as am in the process of mineralising soil, I've managed to lower the two spray bars by some 15 cm, hopefully this will help with flow and circulation to the substrate level where I'm experiencing some bba, as mentioned earlier the depth of the tank and being bow fronted hasn't helped me, starting in the hobby 2 years ago I now wish I'd chosen maybe a smaller more friendly box of glass to learn to grow healthy plants in 
So, added to the reduced height spray bars, I've already received my new lower wattage T5's from lampspecs  can't fault the service, under 10 beer tokens for 2 x 22 watt Sylvania tubes delivered in 3 days.
I've left one 39 watt tube in and added a 22 watt with it for the moment to see if this reduced amount together with the spray bar adjustment will help eradicate any remaining bba in the period while my soil is doing its thing still running c02 for the next 6 weeks so hopefully before I strip down to change over any plants I am planning to keep should be clean, hopefully.  Lighting I have some room for play still, I can reduce it further if necessary by using the two 22 watt tubes or add back my reflectors if I feel it's needed so at least I have options here
So here's an update shot showing the lower spray bars, this should also allow me to use some floating plants as the surface agitation isn't too wild any more so another plus point for when the soil has mineralised in 6 weeks time oh and I've left the circulation pump turned off, I'll see how things are like this for a week or so.




Sent from my LT30p using Tapatalk


----------



## Pinkmummy79

With all this rain it's difficult to dry the top soil in the garden, after a week it's now wetter than when I first spread the 35 litres our on a tarp to dry.
May have to bake it in the over 

Sent from my LT30p using Tapatalk


----------



## sciencefiction

Yes, its hard doing it here too. I did some of mine during winter, inside in a spare room spread on bin bags and open windows. I nearly got thrown out of the house for doing it  And my dog left its paws in it too quite a few times. It took a while.
Baking should work too, though I haven't tried it. It just breaks down the soil via heat instead of bacterial activity. I am curious if baking produces the same sandy/powder type soil normal mineralizing does.

This is how mine looked after about 5 soak and dry cycles and sifted. It was dark/black clumpy soil originally.


----------



## nickmcmechan

I baked mine, as the soil was wet for baking it didn't produce that sandy residue


----------



## Pinkmummy79

so, project low tech/soil tank is in full swing...

i'm 3 weeks into topsoil mineralisation and due to the general lack of sunshine in Somerset i've only managed one wet/dry cycle, it's been mostly wet.  Currently have 30 litres spread out on a tarp on the lawn my small assistant Bob is running this side of the project but as he's only 6 it gets a tad messy at times.

Baking may have to become an option at this rate, not really getting anywhere fast and now on my last Fire Extinguisher before I pull down the tank as it is, so I need to be ready in time for no C02 in about 4/5 weeks when I run out.

Quick question if poss?

My substrate at present is akadama, would it be ok to mix some of this into the soil to stop it compressing to much and aid flow of nutrients? in place of grit so to speak?
Also
for a cap, i'd like something black but have a few options and would appreciate any pro's and cons
1.  use the existing akadama as a cap, it's a nice size, is Cory safe having no sharp edges and I already have it so no cost to me which is part of the plan!  I also have some spare unused akadama if this may be better than using what's in the existing set up? I lwould like a black cap if possible though but if the akadama is ok to use then i'll go with this as it's one less thing to get
2.  Ideally I would like a black cap and have looked at the unipac micro gravel, this would start adding maybe unwanted costs and is it ok for my Cory's ( I plan on more Cory's too)
3. The tried and tested pool filter sand in size 6/14 again added cost and not black....

Troi, if you're there or anyone else, I know Troin has posted somewhere a link to the greenhouse mesh he used for a soil retainer, can't find it, have searched, me bad...anyone help me out with the link?

And finally ADMIN, I think this should possibly be moved to a Journal now as it's evolved and i'm getting on with the move to low tech so it would also benefit me in the long run too, may need re-naming though 

Job list:
prep soil - ongoing
sort out a cap
sell or re-home existing fish not ideal for new set up - currently for sale locally
think about scape design - new piece of wood purchased and soaking, more needed
buy clay
buy Dolomite?
buy muriate of potash?
decide on additional tank mates, a few more otto's, Cory's and a nice sized group of smaller fish
Cardinals, green neon tetras etc and any other suggestions?

time's ticking based on remaining c02 4 weeks ish before changeover


----------



## sciencefiction

Maybe give Troi a pm about the mesh?

As a cap you can do anything you like and can afford as long as it's not too large gravel as soil particles will be released from between the grains. As for mixing the soil with something, keep in mind that bigger particles mixed with smaller ones like soil will eventually make their way to the top of the substrate.  But if you are capping with Akadama, then it doesn't matter and you can mix some with the soil if you like.
I have coarse Unipac Fiji as a cap in a tank with numerous corys. It is quite sharp to be honest but they are perfectly fine, no issues with their barbels but by their behaviour I can tell they'd prefer sand and I regret I didn't cap it with sand. It's easier to plant in sand too. Plus low tech tanks can get so overgrown that the colour of the substrate really doesn't matter much in the end, depending on what type of scape you'd like of course.


----------



## Pinkmummy79

found the mesh link now 

I see what your saying about the colour of the cap being covered etc, my experience with the akadama is that it's a very light substance and stems easily lift out by themselves especially with little depth to plan into, sand would be a better option I think for holding onto newly planted stems etc, having quite a large footprint with this tank so ill be needing to put some big numbers of plants in to start with, i'm hoping my Stauro will be ok in there, at least unitil it's up and running, due to the easiier to plant and hold stems better,  i'm leaning towards a sand, i've been searching for pool filter sand as per Troi's suggestion, due to the size etc (6/14) 2-5 ml? it seems this is quite difficult to find in sensible quantities, i've found a bulk supplier but as I have no room for my own beach in the garden to use up the excess i'll keep searching, unless I go for a unipac sand with a sensible size grain? (in Black of course)


----------



## Pinkmummy79

found some pool sand 2-5mm size £22 delivered for 25kilo
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HIGH-QUAL...0362627145&hash=item1c4587e721#ht_2005wt_1069

would this be ok?  I presume it would be more compact/heavier than the akadama and therefore easier to plant into withiut sten=ms coming out easily?


----------



## Tim Harrison

That'd be fine, and you could go smaller if you wanted 1.0 - 2.0 mm would work ok too, that is if you'd prefer it aesthetically. IME pool filter sand isn't that well sorted so you'll have slightly bigger grains in there as well anyway. And it's much easier to plant in.
Just in case the link for the mesh http://www.amazon.co.uk/Greenhouse-Shading-5m-x-6m/dp/B001P3SPIU


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Thanks Troi much appreciated, smaller would look cleaner/nicer maybe so good to know I'll order that getting sorted slowly but desperate to do this right. Cheers


----------



## Tim Harrison

If you're after black sand there is a much cheapr but fairly similar alternative to Unipac Limpopo - average grain size is slightly smaller tho' http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sealey-Sh...Home_Garden_PowerTools_SM&hash=item43a20d688c


----------



## Tim Harrison

However, perhaps I should also mention that if you use the above it will effectively seal off the soil substrate from the water column, so no oxidized microzone and no nutrient replenishment, which would eventually make dosing fertz a must.
Also, planting heavily from the outset would definitely be advisable to help oxygenate the root zone.


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Again, many thanks Troi, you're a valuable asset 
I presume the above substance seals the substrate due to it's smaller partical size not allowing any flow of nutrients etc? I'm down to two options then as I see it, retain the akadama as a cap and save some pennies or spend a little on the pool filter sand which will be easier to plant into, both Cory friendly although the sand isn't expensive at all it's cash that could be speant on new plants.

Umm decisions, decisions, we could have a vote if I could attach voting buttons


----------



## Pinkmummy79

nickmcmechan said:


> I baked mine, as the soil was wet for baking it didn't produce that sandy residue


 More rain, i'm just now going to manage to get 35 litres of top soil mineralsied in the next 4 weeks (my date for changing over when my c02 runs out).
in the last 4 weeks i'm only managinging to be drying my soil for the 2nd time.  I must look at Baking especially if I'm going to need a couiple of weekends for this too, it's awkward with family life getting in the way 
Can anyone tell me if I just need to bake it the once, or do I again need to cycle this bake, soak, bake etc?  Off to Wilko's later for a couple of cheap oven trays so Pinkmummy79 doesn't kill me by using her best gear
I can't leave this in the hope the weather is going to improve over the next 4 weeks and bringing this much soil into the house is impossible it's spread on a plastic tarp on the lawn about 3m x 3m.


----------



## sciencefiction

You should bake it once as far as I am aware. The soaking and draining is good to remove any unwanted particles such as those that float too easily and don't settle after an hour or two.  The less of these, the faster the soil will settle in the tank once you uproot plants and the clearer the water. But then you lose some quantity of soil in the process.


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Cool, thanks this is what I was hoping for, I might start this weekend and prepare this ready for adding the powdered clay when I get some

Plant list next


----------



## Tim Harrison

Talk about delayed gratification...you really are taking your time to get it right


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Under 2 weeks to go (ish) well i want to change before the existing c02 runs out so i can keep as many plants as possible and algae free.
So been busy and ordered 2.5 k of powdered clay, some dolomite and muriate of potash, soil just needs drying a tad to riddle off any unwanted stones etc. Sand cap on it's way too.  Really up for this now .  need to choose some wood and rocks/stones and get an order in for some java moss, java fern and a couple more plants.
So final planning stages now i can try and enjoy putting this together


----------



## wick

Sorry for jumping in, but a few weeks back I started my fisrt dirted tank.Basicly plonked a wetish layer of John innes 3 and then capped with fine gravel(a ratio of 1.1)
. I've been reading this thread and the use of mineralizing the soil? Is this nessersery?  Am I'm going to run into difficulties down the road?
Is mineralizing solely to minimize ammonia concentration or is there a greater importance in doing so?
Many thanks


----------



## sciencefiction

wick said:


> Is mineralizing solely to minimize ammonia concentration or is there a greater importance in doing so?


 
The washing cycles of the mineralizing help minimize cloudiness of the soil upon unplanting. When mineralized, soil settles very fast.
Mineralizing the soil means converting organics to non-organic components e.g nitrates which the plants can use, avoid ammonia production stage inside the tank which can reach dangerous levels depending on tank, plants amount, fish amount.
Soil will eventually mineralize in the tank even if not pre-mineralized but this leads to very high oxygen demands=bad for flora and fauna, risk of soil going anaerobic at the start, suffocating fish, etc..


----------



## wick

sciencefiction said:


> The washing cycles of the mineralizing help minimize cloudiness of the soil upon unplanting. When mineralized, soil settles very fast.
> Mineralizing the soil means converting organics to non-organic components e.g nitrates which the plants can use, avoid ammonia production stage inside the tank which can reach dangerous levels depending on tank, plants amount, fish amount.
> Soil will eventually mineralize in the tank even if not pre-mineralized but this leads to very high oxygen demands=bad for flora and fauna, risk of soil going anaerobic at the start, suffocating fish, etc..


Thanks sciencefiction.I have my plants on order, so as of yet it's devoid of any plants or indeed fish for that matter.Im just running it through the initial cycle.
Probably an impossible question to answer,-: but roughly how long would you say it'll take to eventualky mineralize.?


----------



## sciencefiction

I would be probably mostly wrong if I say how long but under water, due to lower oxygen levels I've read it takes months for soil to fully mineralize.


----------



## Tim Harrison

Mineralizing soil prior to its introduction in to a tank is just one method of setting up a soil substrate scape. Another way is the way you have done it. Personally I don't really see the benefit of mineralizing soil first, and have always allowed the soil to mineralize in the tank once flooded. There are various benefits to doing this and they are explained in greater detail in the tutorial linked below.


----------



## darren636

Allowing the soil to release its N compounds when flooded is a useful way to cycle a filter, coupled with lower light levels  , plants should settle nicely. Although a few species do not cope well with high ammonia. 
If memory serves- it was a two week cycle last time I used a soil/ compost substrate.
 Water changes can help reduce the ammonia build up.


----------



## wick

Cheers guys, That's reassuring to know.Not that I could ever imagine myself pulling the whole tank back to scratch.


----------



## sciencefiction

Troi said:


> Personally I don't really see the benefit of mineralizing soil first, and have always allowed the soil to mineralize in the tank once flooded.


 
Yes, but then again you use mesh to separate the soil from the top layer. Why is that, you soil floats up easily when disturbed, tank looks dirty, soil doesn't settle? Have you tried mineralized soil in a tank to compare the results?
People tend to end up with "dirty" looking tanks when using the soil straight out the bag. Mineralizing not only helps converting the organics into safer non-organics but also converts the soil particles into a more humus like substance. If you've felt mineralized soil between your fingers you'll know what I mean. It's totally different than when not.  In a tank you'll be waiting a long time for this to happen and by then you may have issues of different types that can be avoided.

I have a tank with mineralized soil and a tank with unmineralized soil. The tank with unmineralized soil killed the test Malaysian trumpets snails within the first month so it wasn't safe for any life at the start. They just refused to burrow and died over the substrate. That's with a cycled filter inside the tank and plants that were growing extremely fast due to the break down of organics.  So if you care about your creaters, one needs to be careful. And this tank has always been prone to green algae on the glass and protein film on the surface. Other than that it has been great.

The mineralized tank has never had any algae of any sort believe it or not.  I've never needed to clean the glass and water is pristine clear, as if it is filtered with carbon or seachem purigen. It's only an anecdotal experience and it's only based on two tanks but I'd hate to deal with unmineralized soil in a larger tank if all of them lead to the issues I've had when not mineralizing. If issues can be avoided, I'd avoid it even if it means a bit of prior work.


----------



## Tim Harrison

Each to their own SF...either way is fine.
I don't always use mesh, and I haven't experience any of the problems you've encountered. I suppose every tank is different tho'.
Sorry for hijacking your thread Pinkmummy...How's it going, any updates?


----------



## sciencefiction

Have you done any journals to those tanks Troi? It's not because I want to prove a point to someone. I want to see how are the tanks with unmineralized soil progressing for others. I'd love to save myself the trouble of mineralizing soil too, just not too convinced so far by what I am seeing.


----------



## Tim Harrison

sciencefiction said:


> Have you done any journals to those tanks Troi? It's not because I want to prove a point to someone. I want to see how are the tanks with unmineralized soil progressing for others. I'd love to save myself the trouble of mineralizing soil too, just not too convinced so far by what I am seeing.


Really...
Sure, first link is to my attempt returning to the hobby after about 25 years (no mesh), and as a complete newbie to forums - so it's a bit embarrassing in places...
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/low-tech-aquarium-update.18527/
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/emerald-forest-a-low-energy-scape-in-progress.19761/page-2 (sorry pics have gone A-wall)
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/high-energy-soil-substrate-layout-updated.22651/
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/cryptic-haven-low-energy-update-pics.28695/ (most recent and still going)
And this no journal tho' just a photo...
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l313/intelthug/hybid energy planted tank/fts-1.jpg


----------



## Tim Harrison

Found some of the A-wall photos from the second of the linked journals above...
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3932/15261299260_066f13c106_b.jpg
https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2947/15261429228_ca2ccbd2dc_b.jpg


----------



## sciencefiction

Beautiful tanks Troi. The second journal is missing most pictures unfortunately 
You are mixing the soil with something else though? The Cryptic Haven journal is with aquatic compost and peat moss. And the first one with 20% sterilised loam, 10% grit and 70% Sphagnum Moss Peat?


----------



## Tim Harrison

Thanks SF that's very kind of you to say so.

But on the subject of my additives...would a rose by any other name smell as sweet...Soil is soil...is soil....

All soils are composed of the same basic materials - a mixture of mineral matter (clay, sand, silt), organic matter (living plants and animals and dead remains), and air and water...oh and microorganisms. The proportions of the first 4 principle ingredients vary greatly from one soil type to another.

For instance, the soils I use, that you referred to - peat is a soil high in organic matter, loam is a soil mostly composed of sand and silt and a smaller amount of clay and organic material.

These four principle soil constituents intermix and give rise to a number of important properties for us plant growers, aquatic or otherwise, including texture, structure and fertility.

All I'm doing is adding additional peat soil to a ready made soil mix (planting compost or aquatic compost) to get a soil with a higher organic content, which has many synergistic benefits some of which Darren has mentioned above. But the main benefit for me is the evolution of CO2 as the organic matter decomposes (mineralizes). My tutorial goes in to more detail though.

P.S the pics above are from the second journal...


----------



## sciencefiction

I used plain aquatic compost once, horrible results in a low tech for me.  I didn't mix it with anything, just capped it with sand from the same brand and I used quite a tick layer of soil at the bottom compared to what I use now.   The combo killed several of my fish within 2 months, caused a disease outbreak, and plants were dying within 2-3 days. I couldn't figure out what was happening because I was doing 50% water changes daily but when I removed all the substrate, it stunk of hydrogen sulphide so I presume it went anaerobic. That was a 6 month battle in the end before I binned it.
I moved all those fish to a mineralized garden topsoil tank and they recovered since.
My small tank was setup with un-mineralized soil but I put less than an inch of it and it has less than an inch sand cap so I didn't have those long lasting problems.

Some garden products are no good not mineralized though, such as miracle gro for example.


----------



## Tim Harrison

Sounds like a nightmare. H2S is the pervading smell from many an aquatic sediment - which incidentally is anaerobic by nature - but it rarely proves toxic to aquatic plants (which have evolved to grow in it) or especially critters since H2S quickly oxidised to harmless sulphates in the presence of oxygen.

It's true some garden products don't work very well as aquatic sediments...in the above case perhaps it contained additives that poisoned your tank, and killed your plants and fish. In many cases it is the least toxic soil which provides the best growing conditions. But as I mentioned it's all in the tutorial...


----------



## sciencefiction

The product I used was JBL aqua soil, so shouldn't have been toxic. It was capped with JBL sansibar black. One or the other, or both combined didn't agree with either plants or fish. The tank and filters had been running for years prior to that.
If you ask me, I used too tick layer of soil, the sand was too fine acting as a concrete wall, and the soil was killing the plants within days so they couldn't even spread roots to ease the problem.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,





sciencefiction said:


> If you ask me, I used too tick layer of soil, the sand was too fine acting as a concrete wall, and the soil was killing the plants within days so they couldn't even spread roots to ease the problem.


 I think your probably right, the substrate became anaerobic and probably fairly acidic in strongly reducing conditions.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Tim Harrison

sciencefiction said:


> The product I used was JBL aqua soil, so shouldn't have been toxic. It was capped with JBL sansibar black. One or the other, or both combined didn't agree with either plants or fish. The tank and filters had been running for years prior to that.
> If you ask me, I used too tick layer of soil, the sand was too fine acting as a concrete wall, and the soil was killing the plants within days so they couldn't even spread roots to ease the problem.


Perhaps I've misunderstood but did you use plain aquatic compost or JBL aqua-soil? Either way how deep was the soil layer, can you remember?


----------



## sciencefiction

Troi said:


> Perhaps I've misunderstood but did you use plain aquatic compost or JBL aqua-soil? Either way how deep was the soil layer, can you remember?



My fault. My apologies.  I called it aquatic compost because it's produced for an aquatic environment but its not really compost but the JBL aqua soil. I never really looked at the composition of it. It's probably available online.
I think I had about 4-5cm of soil layer at the bottom.   I can't quite remember how much sand I put on top, but not as much as the soil.

It was a very bad experience as my fish started getting sick within 2 months of me putting that substrate. When I tore the tank down the substrate stunk of hydrogen sulphide, same as if you leave a filter not running and closed for a month. I've torn down other tanks and never ever smelled hydrogen sulphide from a substrate like that.

At some stage I replaced the JBL sand with a larger quartz sand I had and it somewhat eased the problem a bit with the fish along with daily water changes but the tank never really fully recovered plant or fish wise so it had to be torn down.

Also, for the record, the tank never measured any ammonia or nitrite after changing the substrate so it wasn't that affecting the fish or plants. I guess the two cycled filters had a say in this. But the TDS jumped up a lot and was very high for months which was annoying me because the soil specs claimed it doesn't change the stats. The TDS eventually dropped to tap water level after a ridiculous amount of water changes for months. I think that soil was quite rich in organics. In comparison, using mineralized garden topsoil didn't increase the TDS much at all.


----------



## Tim Harrison

Sounds like you had terribly bad luck with that tank, something definitely wasn't right. Maybe it had something to do with that particular batch of JBL?
I have used a much deeper soil layer but that was with my mix of peat and aquatic compost, not least my latest and ongoing low-energy scape Cryptic Haven, which is also capped with fine sand and effectively sealed off from the water column. Both soil and sand cap are about 6cm deep at the back a total of 12cm.


----------



## sciencefiction

I don't know, it could have been a bad batch but I don't want to experience it again for sure.


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Hi everyone, sorry I've not been on for an update for a while, to be honest apart from waiting for the postman not much has happened yet.

So, i havent yet taken down the 260 high tech as there are a few bits needed still and thankfully the c02 hasn't run out yet 

I now have pool filter sand for my cap, the greenhouse mesh, powdered red clay, dolomite and muriate of potash.

My soil should be mineralised although it's still a little too wet wrapped up in a plastic tarp still.  Not getting home until dark from work isnt helpful, i dare not leave it unwrapped all day alone in case of rain and cat dung!
So, ideally my soil could do with a bit more drying out time that way i think it would be easier to add the powdered clay evenly etc.
I've ordered a large piece of redmoor which will need soaking for a few days too.  A couple of plants are in my tank still in their pots too.  A couple of crypts and another 2 bolbitus
 Been umming and erring over rock, i do have a couple of pieces already in the tank not sure what they are tbh as got them a couple of yrs ago from MAquatics locally, cant stretch to 12 kilo of manten stone at the moment so will go with what i have and buy plants instead.
Sorry, the laptop is on a go slow so its painful using my shiney new lg phone.
I had planned to do the change over this coming weekend but due to being behind on things it may be better to hope my gas lasts another week and hopefully I'll be fully prepped in another week, or i can go for it and add more plants next week when i order some or post a wanted thread on ukaps 

So here's my existing plant list to see what i can use moving them from high to low tech.
Anubias barteri nana x 3 (2 are huge)
Crypt willisii
Crypt nevelli
Bolbitus heudelotii x 3
Stauro (lots but looking a bit tired)
Blyxa (lots, maybe 30 stems)
Aponogeton boivinianus x 2
Clinopodium brownei (maybe 35 stems)
Alternanthera reineckii pink

I'm ok with the crypts, bolbitus, anubias, and the 2 bulbs and hopefully the stems being clinopodium and blyxa japonica can at least be used to get things off to a good start?
I'm unsure about the Stauro as it's maybe not at it's best and there maybe a bit of algae bba in amongst it so may look to replace this with more stem plantage for early doors?

Plants I'd like are
Xmas moss
Echindorus unsure what yet
Java moss maybe
Suggestions welcome..........

So i have to say a big shout out to Hoggie took some great floaters from him last week and they're top notch, so thanks mate great big bunch of healthy plants 

This maybe my last week with the tank as i know it, it's a first for me to take down a tank as only being in the hobby 2 and a bit years, this forum has taught me the bits i know so far and now begins my low tech experience, maybe it's back to front going high tech first, but oh boy what a fast learning curve 
I'll post a pic of my wood (no pun intended) when it arrives, and a snapshot of my tank before it gets taken down, I'd really like to change my username too as this tank was a gift for my Mrs who uses the handle of Pinkmummy79, however i started planting and do all the work so after setting Fran up on the forum just let it ride   im more of a Reddaddy67 but my friends call me Clive.
Laterz peeps


----------



## sciencefiction

Well, good luck with the setup. It sound like a lot of work


----------



## Edvet

Sorry no namechange, you will älways be:


----------



## Tim Harrison

Yep you can't change your name now it's against the law...Ed's pic would make an epic avatar tho'


----------



## Pinkmummy79

ha ha ha cheers chaps
ok, I'll remain as Pinkmummy79, it makes no odds, does sometimes cause amusement and maybe confuses others

Nice pic Ed, I would like to take up Troi's suggestion, would you mind me snagging this splendid likeness for my avatar?


----------



## Edvet

I stole it from the interweb anyway, so be my guest.


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Cheers Ed..

Question on raising my substrate level without increasing the depth of my soil or cap.

As I currently have akadama which will be coming out, could I use this inside a filter media bag? I presume the akadama wouldn't cause any anaerobic issues by being buried?  this will be new to me, but with the 260 having quite a large footprint, it may give me more layout options if I can factor in some height, not lots just enough of a change to make it more appealing.

ta
Pink


----------



## Tim Harrison

Sounds like it could work well. I've used Tesco cat litter and inert silicon gravel before to similar effect. I have a dozen zip up filter media bags which I use in a modular way to build slopes etc.


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Cool
cheers for that, gives me something to muse about..
I've not decided on my scape yet, although I have a few ideas it will need to come together slowly as paydays are monthly
so what stems I plant can always be changed at a later date, rocks etc can be added as I go but i'll hopefully get a few main plants to start with too.
off to read some more journals and try and get some inspiration now.


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Right then, i'm finally giving some thought to additional plants and possible layout, I really need some rock, I also need another payday and would rather have everything in place to set this harsdcape up as I initially want it rather than shuffle things around in just two weeks, so I may get one more FE so I don't run out and into algae issues.
Hardn decision as I had planned on this weekend for the change but I just don't feel I would be giving my all if all I was doing it for was becuase my c02 wouldn't last!  I want to be getting on with this bnow but haven't everything I need yet.
I need plants and rock, I like rock 

anyway back to the nitty gritty..
Can anyone please suggest which of the following would be a  better low tech option for a maybe not very compact carpet?
E-Tenellus or Lilaeopsis Brasiliensis?  I like them both, maybe the Lil Bras better but i've read it's demanding and needs c02 to flourish?  i'm sure i'm wrong as this was on my possible list of requirements...
thanks
Clive


----------



## wick

[quote="Pinkmummy79, post: 785L3, member:Right then, i'm finng some thought to additional plants and possible layout, I really  need some rock, I also need another payday and would rather have everything in place to set this harsdcape up as I initially want it rather than shuffle things around in just two weeks, so I may get one more FE so I don't run out and into algae issues.
Hardn decision as I had planned on this weekend for the change but I just don't feel I would be giving my all if all I was doing it for was becuase my c02 wouldn't last!  I want to be getting on with this bnow but haven't everything I need yet.
I need plants and rock, I like rock 

anyway back to the nitty gritty..
Can anyone please suggest which of the following would be a  better low tech option for a maybe not very compact carpet?
E-Tenellus or Lilaeopsis Brasiliensis?  I like them both, maybe the Lil Bras better but i've read it's demanding and needs c02 to flourish?  i'm sure i'm wrong as this was on my possible list of requirements...
thanks
Clive[/quote]


Hi mummy.
Ive just set up a low/medium  tech dirted tank as previously mentioned a few pages back and have primarily gone for crypts, crypts and more crypts which id like to add are all doing fantastically well.
I also planted some Lilaeopsis Brasiliensis along the front,with the intention of creating a lawn effect , which i fear will be soon overtaken by the ever expandeing crypts ,but its no big deal. What  i can inform you is: lilaeopsis Brasiliensis is an incredibly slow grower, with an average of one new leaf per runner a  week.at least it was in my tank.Thats if you can get the darn thing to grow in the first place!


----------



## Pinkmummy79

cheers Wick, top stuff, I do prefer this plant tbh, slightly less uniform and maybe a tad shortter than tenellus, has a bit more character, it's on my hit list now.
ta


----------



## Tim Harrison

It's always done very well for me. Check this thread out, if you haven't already...http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/low-tech-lawns.32597/


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Yes that's fantastic, I must read all that thread again later when home from work, some great food for thought.

I have another noob low tech question please

As I do plan on keeping any plants I currently have in my c02 enriched tank, wel as much as I can and at least for start up until I can purchase all I would like, plants as listed above, will they not automatically start getting algae when placed in a low tech as they have been so used to the C02?
Such as happens in my current set up if I run out of c02 for a day, BBA shows up quite quickly.
I presume they may just need time to adjust? maybe crypts melting etc, should I be readying myself for some trouble, obvioulsy I would rather not be spot dosing my own glut mix in my soon to be low tech. 
I'll be doing the stepped 50% water changes for a few weeks I presume regardless of having two fully establised large external filters until things settle fully or is this overkill?


----------



## sciencefiction

Yes, some plants may need time to adjust if switched from high tech to low tech. But not a great amount of time, probably a few weeks or so, they may melt rapidly and stuff. Just cut the healthy portions and replant.
Algae wise, I play around with the light intensity/duration a lot at the start. It normally takes about two weeks for changes to take place for me. So for example if I've given too much light, in 2 weeks I can see a tiny start of algae forming. I then would decrease with an hour or an hour and a half duration wise,  or decrease intensity and such  but intensity seems to affect some light loving plants so you've got to watch each plant individually, and at the same time watch how the tank is doing overall. That's another two weeks wait  to see if I've done right 
Water changes are no problem, do as many as you like if you feel like. I do 50% on all my tanks every week, all low tech and there's no downside to it. You can get away with none as far as plants go but I still think my fish are happier this way and I see no downside to plant growth.

In a low tech in about 6 months to a year the most common nutrient deficiencies for me are potassium being N1 and then iron, but the latter is because my water is hard but I haven't had any iron issues in my soil tanks as I have red clay mixed in the soil in them.  And I've been dosing nitrates too, probably because of my big water changes.  I've never dosed other micros or macros.


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Hi, thanks for this sciencefiction, I do have some new stems arriving from Big Clown so these will add some bulk to the planting from start up so i'll take it steady and watch daily, not yet ready still....soil still not dry enough for me, hopefully this weekend's heatwave may complete this process then I can give it a final riddle to rid the smaller stones remaining and add my powdered clay.
I've managed to get 2 more 2kg fire extinguishers today to keep me going if my existing one should run out while waiting for final bits, but as i've been blessed with a great local gent who only charged me £10 for 2 x filled FE's I have no grumbles over the past 18 months or so, he's now retiring so me going low tech is the right time, i'll most likely keep my c02 gear though in case I get an ADA60p or NA tank when I win the lottery lol...

My Lights while not worrying me too much, i'm sure they'll be fine being T5's, i've already reduced the lighting 3 weeks ago still running c02, i've had the 2 x 21W tubes running without reflectors and it was pretty low light indeed, i've since added back the reflectors and i'll see if this is my starting point, I do still have 2 x 39 watt t5's so I can mix and match and remove reflectors if necessary, I can't raise the height unfortunately due to the std hood.

I have received some lovely floaters from Hoggie and due to my water level being 2" from the lights, i've dropped the level now by 3", this caused a gap in the top of the front glass when looking where the light bounced through so I have simply used black electricians tape on the glass {neatly} to hide this gap, all looks standard still and hopefully the floating plants won't get fried now.

Water changes still 50% per week? well I was doing this to give me more time at home, with 2 kids etc weekends go too quickly for me, I enjoy doing tank maintenence but may look into an Eheim pump, I think Swell are having a pond pump clearance at the moment, i've just been syphoning into an old kitchen bin and jugging back in 130 litres every saturday night, my back can't deal with this anymore lol, so pump and a hose from the kitchen and i'll dose the whole tank volume with Prime rather than my storage buckets.  Good thing with low tech is that I can do my water changes when I like, with the c02 set up i've always waited until the end of the week due to EI dosing and also when my C02 injection had finished on a Saturday, so I haven't been starting until 9.30pm, if I also do filter and hose maintenence plus some gardening etc, I don't finish til at least 2am Sunday! hence my need for a change to the dark side.

Anyway, i'm now waiting a few weeks as i'd like to buy some rocks, Manten stone maybe and a trip to Aquajardin in Gloucester as it's not too far from me, so next payday and i'll be off an running.  However my wood has arrived so i'll post a pic in a moment.
cheers


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Even Mrs punkmummy likes my wood


----------



## Andy Thurston

Should be posted tomorrow I'll let you know once its on its way. Theres loads it filled the curry tray
I'll be watching this


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Slowly getting things in place, payday Monday so i can buy some manten stone and a few more plants.

Quick question about areation of mineralised soil, I've resorted to baking the soil and riddled off any stones not finished yet but this is what it looks like now



Do i need some grit and if so exactly what grit as i don't want to add anything which will upset the water.
Or, can i use my spare akadama as here
Y


This has a high cec but is it ok to add enough flow of water and nutrients to the soil?
I'll be adding my powdered red clay today hooefully.
Sorry this is a slow one, painfully slow,thanks to Andy for the amania bonsai, top quality and so much 
I've trimmed my Stauro at the front ready for transplantation to low tech and made a temporary home for the Amania Bonsai at the front, so far no melt and all seems happy 
Be sad to knock this down as its doing well

Any comments on the addition of grit or akadama welcomed
Cheers Clive


----------



## darren636

Maybe something to open up the soil will be beneficial, akadama will do this very well


----------



## Andy Thurston

Looks like a nice capping material to me. it should work quite nicely to bulk up the dirt too. apparently its to aid oxygenation in the substrate couldn't tell you if it works


----------



## Tim Harrison

Nice dirt, akadama will work well.


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Cheers guys, I'll get my assistant to give this a rinse tomorrow then, saves buying grit.
I go fishing and have some small groubdbait riddles which has helped me get rid of loads of small unknown stones, just wondering if they would have caused issues with the tank if left in not knowing they're make up etc.
I have some nice pool filter sand for my cap☕


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Here you are Big Clown, your stems at front just left of centre


----------



## sciencefiction

When you mix small particles with large particles, the larger will always eventually come up on top, thus sealing the soil. So I wouldn't bother mixing the soil unless you want a ticker layer.
Natural soil actually has higher CEC than akadama or clay.


----------



## Pinkmummy79

sciencefiction said:


> When you mix small particles with large particles, the larger will always eventually come up on top, thus sealing the soil. So I wouldn't bother mixing the soil unless you want a ticker layer.
> Natural soil actually has higher CEC than akadama or clay.


Oh ok i see what you're saying thanks, so there's no need to mix anything to help water flow through the soil layer then ? I'm only planning the advised 1" depth topped with pool filter sand.  I will also be using the greenhouse mesh between these two layers of that helps.
Cheers
Clive


----------



## Tim Harrison

Yep SF has a point but IME it won't hurt to mix in a little if you want to, the extra structure may help improve gas and nutrient exchange. And if you're using mesh it won't get disturbed - which is what will make it rise to the top. 25mm is a healthy depth.


----------



## sciencefiction

I'd probably use the mesh for sure if you are going to mix the soil, so the akadama doesn't end up on top of the sand cap one day. As Troi says, mixing the soil to improve structure is fine I suppose.


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Cheers chaps


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Back again, I'm looking at stones now, an ebay seller has a good selection at affordable prices and i have two or maybe three options.
He has Manten stone which i know will not raise my ph and also some of this which will raise the ph



My question is, should i stick to the Manten or is it ok to go for a stone which will over time increase the ph and tds?  As i will be doing maybe less water changes in a low light set up compared to my existing 50% per week i won't be re setting parameters as much if this makes sense.
Thing is, with what i have in mind for my scape these pieces in the photo do fit well, just unsure if ill be better off in the long term choosing something inert?
thanks
Clive


----------



## sciencefiction

All I would worry about is how much space the stones take out of my planting area  In low tech tanks having some sort of Ca/Mg realeaser isn't a bad thing, especially if you the source water is soft. That's providing you don't keep extremely soft water species like chocolate gourami or similar fish.


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Dragon stone on route now☺
My tds from tap is 256ppm, before weekly 50% water change after dosing full ei it's 533ppm, just finished my last high tech water change as i have next Friday off work to strip the tank down and tds is 381ppm before adding any salts so my thinking is a bit of the old dragon isn't gonna raise tds as much as my salts have been when i go low so all fine and dandy besides, i have no chocos or other fish with special needs and i like the stone mate


----------



## Pinkmummy79

And so it begins



Tank stripped down, taken all day.
Quick play with stones etc









The wood on the left will be slightly more elevated as have filled two media bags with the akadama i took out the tank today.
Soil ready for the morning, cap and plant heavy☕


----------



## sciencefiction

It looks like a lot of work from scratch, fingers crossed and have patience  And I hope you keep up with pictures for us on the progress.


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Wow I'm pooped

How many hours i don't know but most of the last 3 days ive spent taking down and re scaping with mineralised top soil,  some dragon stone and a couple of pieces of wood.
Now I'm not an expert in placing items in an aquarium nor photography so excuse the quality of pics but this is how it went




































I've made use of all my existing stems to fill in as much as i could obviously this will be a work in progress and things will change but so far I'm happy to join  the dirted tank club


----------



## Pinkmummy79

The melt has begun
Some crypts as expected and bolbitus  so far but generally all doing not too bad. 
Before tonight's 130 litre water change my tds was 680, tap is 267 I'm not dosing anything at the moment so should i be overly concerned? After water change it was down to 460, I'll keep up the changes daily but could do with a pump to help as using a jug and massive container is a chore.  Dragon stone may not be helping tds rise so quickly?


----------



## wick

Looking sweet, mummy . What's going to be your dosing regimen, or are you relying solely on the soil?
May the dirt be with you.


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Cheers wick 
To be honest when i first started planning the change from high tech i never considered dosing ferts, lack of knowledge on my part maybe.
I could do with some sound advice as what ti do really otherwise i was going to see how things go with the dirt and go from there.
Still early days yet so still time to add some ei now if that's best


----------



## wick

Pinkmummy79 said:


> Cheers wick
> To be honest when i first started planning the change from high tech i never considered dosing ferts, lack of knowledge on my part maybe.
> I could do with some sound advice as what ti do really otherwise i was going to see how things go with the dirt and go from there.
> Still early days yet so still time to add some ei now if that's best



Cool.
I guess a lot depends on your frequency of water changes; if you're maintaining  50% weekly WC , then mabye a reduced EI program?
But that's the trouble isn't it-a little pinch of this, a little pinch of that, before you know it, you'll be back to full high-tech again! Jk


----------



## Tim Harrison

Nice sequence of photos...quite a journal so far and a great story and your tank looks good - should grow in very well. I bet you're glad to finally get it sorted


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Wouldn't have done it tbh without the help and guidance from yourself and others who have contributed to this journal.
So a BIG thanks for getting me my mojo back 
It's good to have a new challenge ill enjoy trying to improve this set up as it evolves.
Cheers
Clive and his small assistant Bob


----------



## Edvet

I thought Bob's your uncle?..........


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Bob
Also known as Gollum


----------



## Edvet

Lol


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Quick update pic after 8 days and 1040 litres changed so far 





Tree on the right has taken most of the melt although i can replace a few bolbitus this weekend to keep the plant mass up, I'll trim the ones i remove and see if they recover in my kitchen nano im using as a dumping ground for my spare plants at the moment just a jungle...
On the plus side I've lost no fish and the stems have grown quite well already.
Still not dosing anything.
Here's the kitchen jungle


----------



## Lindy

I have the crinum calamistratum  and aponogeton  out of the tank now. One of each.  Can't  find the sale/wanted section tonight so just posted here. Pm me your offer for both inc 1st class postage?


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Sorry lindy, missed this, busy few days not been on.
Cheers for the msg


----------



## Pinkmummy79

2 weeks in and checked one of my filters last night, wow that was dirty, red tinge to the sponges and the fine sponge was so heavy must be the soil and clay.  I expect the other is the same but I'll look at that next weekend so not to cause any issues.
So a few new bolbitus and narrow leaf into my tree on the right, a couple of crypts w. Green in the right corner and 2  Swords to the rear centrally to hopefully give the anubias some cover once they grow.
These 2 weeks have flown by water changes now every 3 days which I'm happy about. Tds now not far above tap so things seem settled


----------



## tim

Really looks good, stands to be a shining example of what can be grown without co2, top job mate


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Cheers tim, i over prepped maybe, tried to make sure i covered everything and seemed in the planning stages for ages but I'm pleased so far although still crossing all my fingers


----------



## sciencefiction

It looks nice and healthy. Well done.


----------



## plantnoob

Looking really good


----------



## Pinkmummy79

A couple of new additions arrived in the plant mail today from Lindy 

Tailor made for the left corner, another type of Aponogeton and a crinum which is now Bob's fave plant.
Cheers Lindy


----------



## wick

Looking really green and lush.And you seem to be having fun and enjoying your tank at the same time; which of course is how it should be.
Welcome to the dirtside


----------



## Pinkmummy79

I am mate, it's like an unfinished jigsaw still finding pieces.
☺


----------



## sciencefiction

Tank looks great PMM, no doubt.
Well, tell us how you feel about the low tech method in comparison to before  It actually gets better in a few months in my experience as plants really take off then to the point it gets annoying as it's too much work. That's if you have fast growers. The crinum and aponogeton are some of my favourite plants. They love light so I'd make sure they are not overshadowed eventually if there are some fast growers.
You probably won't need to add anything at all in the first year. I normally supplement with macros afterwards in little amount's weekly,  mostly potassium and nitrate but even a bit if phosphate wont' harm, and if your water is like mine, iron too. But that's only a problem if the tank is not very well stocked and because I tend to be doing more water changes than normal for a low tech.


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Hi guys and girls, 5 weeks in now and all is great.
Stems were actually trimmed by a couple of inches at the weekend, crypts to the right seem happy and have had no melting.  No algae what so ever
General growth is slow but im not bothered as long as the plants are healthy i feel I've started to achieve my goal.
I tried to plant well from the start and give some depth and substance from the off knowing growth would be slower than the high tech world and much looks as it was 3 weeks ago tbh but that's fine by me.
I've added some sponges to my inlet pipes to be uber shrimp friendly maybe need to trim them down a tad at some point but i don't really notice them in the tank now and flow hasn't been reduced at all. In fact although the circ pump is still in there its not been on for 3 weeks so may take it out soon.
I can't believe how fast the floaters grow☺ i am removing about a litre jug full each week at water change.  Water changes now every week and just doing 65 litres which is roughly 25%.  Lights still only on for 6 hours so will maybe increase this to 7 in the new year.
So far I'm well chuffed and am now thinking of a few small changes and additions.    I gradually want to replace some of the stems at the front right  with lilaeopsis brasiliensis and also add more crypts to both far left and right sides, some smaller varieties to keep the scale.
One surprise for me is the alternanthera reineckii pink, its survived and doing rather well.  In the high tech this always grew leggy and was plagued by bba, its loving it's new home now.
Maybe ok now for a couple more corys and I'd like some more snails too. Only have the one red ramshorn so looking to get some mates for him/her.
Really should have done this 3 yrs ago its turning out just peachy
Heres a pic after 5 weeks from my phone


----------



## faizal

The tank is looking amazing Clive...It's looking a lot more lushly now then when it was co2 injected,...and all this with much less maintenance too . Congratulations on a job well done.


----------



## tam

It's looks great - very lush and green. Not sure if it's just the photo, but have you thought about changing the background to something with a bit more contrast? Black might make the plants/fish pop more and make the equipment blend. Just a thought


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Cheers for the comments everyone, tam i do have some black card i bought meaning to try as a background i must get myself in gear and sort it out 

So it's been a while now since i started this and i can honestly say it's been great.  No algae, my pest snails have vanished, shrimp population exploded and all plants healthy.
I've added a couple of crypts and 4 more corys.  The stauro i transplanted from high tech didn't seem to do too well so Its gone and I'm replacing with Lilaeopsis brasiliensis.
I could do with a portion of bolbitus heudelotii for adding some structure to the left piece of redmoor and I'd really like to get in on the act with some Buce soon.
Here's the tank now still no ferts being added at all and lights on for 7 hours per day







Cheers for looking
Clive☺


----------



## Tim Harrison

Wow...that's coming long verrry nicely...


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Thanks Troi, its such an improvement on my high tech with regards the health of the tank in general.
I was constantly fighting bba and mild green spot algae, running co2 through both spray bars i was using a 2kg FE each month and with the depth of the tank and it having a bowed front getting ideal flow and circulation was a pig of a job.
By removing the obstacles causing hard work and removing large hardscape pieces so not to restrict flow it's all come together rather nicely.
Oh, and not forgetting all the help i had along the way.
I would eventually like to replce some or most of the stems at the front with crypts and buce.
I have my mojo back now and when funds allow would like a smaller tank, optiwhite if poss to run in a similar way for in our hallway, i love my cherry shrimp  so may try some more adventurous shrimp keeping in this one, just plans at the moment but i do have permission from she who must be obeyed


----------



## sciencefiction

The tank is looking great!
My soil tank similar to your setup has been totally free of algae for the 3rd year now, there's not a spec anywhere to be seen.   I may have said it but once I moved a BBA infested anubias from my other tank to the soil tank the BBA on the leaves died off completely.  I didn't even have to clean it. For some reason that sort of tank is not favourable to algae at all, no matter what. I always thought it's because I mineralized the soil where in my other soil tank I didn't and it did have algae on and off for the first 1.5 years at at least, although it didn't last long each time.
So if you don't have algae by now, you won't ever have it in there I think. Easy


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Pinkmummy79 said:


> I could do with a portion of bolbitus heudelotii for adding some structure


 I've got some you can have. I think it is one of those plants that "_creeps up on you", _you think you have a little bit growing, and when you actually look it is a clump the size of a football. 





sciencefiction said:


> My soil tank similar to your setup has been totally free of algae for the 3rd year now


 I think it is often the combination of floaters, a reasonable plant mass and *time*, basically <"_good things come to those who wait_"> & <"Problem with EI natural">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Andy D

dw1305 said:


> I think it is often the combination of floaters, a reasonable plant mass and *time*.
> 
> cheers Darrel



I agree. My tank with soil, floaters and reasonable plant mass has never had one spot of algae. 

I have ensured I have kept lighting levels in check throughout as well which has helped.


----------



## Tim Harrison

Andy D said:


> I agree. My tank with soil, floaters and reasonable plant mass has never had one spot of algae.
> 
> I have ensured I have kept lighting levels in check throughout as well which has helped.



Andy do you use fertz?


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Hi all
Just a quick pic as it's now 6 months since i set this up and it's filled out nicely.
Started dosing ei at 10% 2 weeks ago as thought it needed it.
Cheers, low tech rocks

So here we are now 6mths after i found the dark side


----------



## Lindy

Just read through all of this and it has inspired me not to give up on low tech (guess I'll be readvertising those diffusers lol..) I'm going to redo my substrate with ada africana, get a jbl 1501 gl and I've lots of new plants waiting to go in including stems. I'll do more wc's initially and just keep the fish out for the moment. I have a plan!!!

Do you get any surface film having your spraybars so low?


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Sorry Lindy, missed your post....
Well I started with the spray bars about an inch under the surface and there was too much water movement for the floating plants so I eventually settled on where they are now.
I have great water movement still, even above the spray bars and never have any scum build up.
The spray bar position is also helpful for me as this is the line where I remove water to on my weekly water changes.
Good luck with the low tech, i'll see if I can post a quick video later tonight to show the water movement, it will only be from my phone but will help.
cheers
Clive


----------



## Paulmk

Your tank looks lovely


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Hi all, Sorry I've not been around much lately, just busy family stuff, kids and work.
So, it's 15 months now since I started tinkering with the dark side and so far it's been great.
As expected, I lost a few stems transplanted from high tech but the garden's grown now.
Minimal water changes weekly, well minimal compared to the 140 litre manual weekly changes I was doing.
I'm now doing a 60 litre change weekly which drops the level to the spray bars.  if no filters are being cleaned then with a bit of gardening this takes me just 1.5 hours a week including a tidy up.
Still running the 2 big filters which I'm sure are 90% of my success, these get cleaned 3 weeks apart and every 8 weeks I do a 50% water change and clean all hoses and spray bars.  So still some work but a lot less and my plants grow healthy.
I've had zero algae of any form whatsoever in the time this has been running.
I've tried to upload a small video from my phone but tapatalk keeps closing on me.  I need specialist help doh.
So here are a couple of snaps as of now. Moss has gone as it grew out of the wood each side and I wasn't willing to disturb what was there to try and re attach some and I dont think I miss it too much.
Cheers
Clive



Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk


----------



## Tim Harrison

Good to see you back and that your tank is still going strong


----------



## alto

Great to see this tank doing so well 

Are you up for a plant list - it would be helpful to see what's failed since the changeover & what's been thriving.


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Cheers matey, yep all good not been slacking just need to find more time for myself to join in on here again.
So much more to learn

Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk


----------



## rebel

Wow that is some conversion.

Love to see lush low tech goodness. Very nice and well done.


----------



## flygja

I've just read your journal from start to end and I must say its a very inspirational read. I'm definitely gonna think about going low-tech on my 300 litre tank. I tried it once by switching off the CO2 and it was bad. Now I just have to decide whether to use the 3-year-old aquasoil or go with dirt and gravel cap.


----------



## faizal

Troi said:


> If you're after black sand there is a much cheapr but fairly similar alternative to Unipac Limpopo - average grain size is slightly smaller tho' http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sealey-Sh...Home_Garden_PowerTools_SM&hash=item43a20d688c
> View attachment 15408



I am so sorry to hijack this,...but i just bought 3 bags of an inert gravel that somewhat resembles the above sand,..not too sure if it's the same thing ,..but Troi could you be kind enough to tell me the size of that sandy like gravel please? Mine measures between 1.5 mm to 3 mm in diameter roughly...mostly around the 2-3 mm range each. Would this affect my microzone layer in terms of nutrient transference?


----------



## Tim Harrison

The above sand is very fine grained and would effectively seal off the soil from the water column - so not much of a microzone, if any, would exist.
Yours sounds fine, the grains are big enough to allow good exchange of gases and nutrients, so it should allow for a healthy microzone.


----------



## Pinkmummy79

The end

I know I've not been around for a while and can only apologize for this, family life and work has been somewhat more important of late.

The tank has unfortunately been taken down due to a leak we spotted last Sunday morning, the base was sodden and we were lucky that it held I suppose as after inspecting it after I was amazed how weak it was, the weight of 260 litres of water, soil, substrate, dragon stone and wood including the tank itself is, well, just glad the fish and plants were saved and the carpet too

Great shame it's gone, thoroughly enjoyed this long term large non co2 fully planted tank. But I've learnt so much along the way I'll be back after a short break.

No 2nd hand tank next time, I'll treat myself to something nice, maybe a bit smaller more manageable with some redundancy money I'm due

Looking for work too

So thanks to everyone who helped me along the way, I hope this has helped others too, maybe, just maybe you'll see me with a new project here soon.
Cheers all
Clive and his small helper Bob aged 9

Sent from my LG-H850 using Tapatalk


----------



## Tim Harrison

Good to hear form you Clive, I hope you're back soon with your new tank, and perhaps a new journal as well


----------



## Pinkmummy79

Tim Harrison said:


> Good to hear form you Clive, I hope you're back soon with your new tank, and perhaps a new journal as well


Thanks Tim
Yes that's the plan, a short break first, time to collect some ideas, hardware etc and I'll crack on with something new.
Time for me to get back on here.

Sent from my LG-H850 using Tapatalk


----------

