# Fishless cycling and EI dosing



## tommyleestaples (26 Mar 2010)

I am dosing using the EI Method on my tank and I have just started fishless cycling. I added 5 ml of Ammonia to my 120 litre tank to raise the level to 5 ppm and have been monitoring it. It dropped to about 0.50 ppm and then I added a further 3 ml to raise it back up to around 3 ppm overnight it has dropped back to 0.50 ppm. Seems like everything is okay so far? My Nitrites seem to have stayed high 3-5 ppm they havent dropped yet or increased off the scale. I am planning to keep adding 2.5-3 ml of ammonia untill Ammonia and Nitrites drop to zero within around 12 hours. 

My question is as I am dosing using the EI Method on Sunday I will need to do a 50% water change. Will this affect my cycle? At present my tank has no fish in it only live plants.


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## JamesC (26 Mar 2010)

You don't fishless cycle planted tanks.

I would stop all ammonia dosing and do a water change. If you really want to do a fishless cycle then take the plants out and turn off the lights until it is complete. Adding large amounts of ammonia to a brightly lit planted tank is asking for mega trouble in a couple of weeks time.

James


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## ceg4048 (27 Mar 2010)

Agreed. Absolutely pointless. Stop adding ammonia and just take care of (and enjoy) your plants. As James says, otherwise you'll spend the rest of your life posting in the Algae forum. Plants effectively do the cycling. That is their nature.   

Cheers,


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## tommyleestaples (5 Apr 2010)

Okay thanks for the advice. My lights are only on for 6 hours a day. So far I have had a tiny amount of brown algae appear but that hasnt been a problem as it was easily removed. 

Ammonia is now 0 ppm and Nitrites are 1 ppm. Should I just do a large water change now and add some fish?


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## Spanerman (5 Apr 2010)

I would do a 100% water change, refill leave for a few days then add a low stocking of fish


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## nry (5 Apr 2010)

Funny, I was going to ask this question myself - guess I have the answer now!  I was planning on running plants only for a month or so before adding a few fish or shrimp, so I'll stick to it


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## cabo650 (30 Sep 2010)

I also am a new hobbyist with a 120 litre. same situation. only i have added just 10 ml of ammonia. levels are currently .25ppm ammonia, .5ppm nitrate, 1ppm nitrite. Not really sure what the benefit of doing a fishless cycle is. What it means, or really how to do it and where these levels should be, and for how long? 

My tap is extremely soft with 7.2 pH. I desire a stable pH of acidic to neutral. Not sure how to increase hardness to stabilize the pH without increasing the pH in the process. I read about adding baking soda to increase hardness, but this did not work and only raised pH to 7.6+ 

any comments and suggestions is appreciated. I am desiring to stock a school of tetras, a pair of discus, and a few corydoras. I understand discus require stable pH levels and prefer <neutral, as well as the plants. How might I obtain such water chemistry???


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## ceg4048 (30 Sep 2010)

cabo650 said:
			
		

> I also am a new hobbyist with a 120 litre. same situation. only i have added just 10 ml of ammonia. levels are currently .25ppm ammonia, .5ppm nitrate, 1ppm nitrite. Not really sure what the benefit of doing a fishless cycle is. What it means, or really how to do it and where these levels should be, and for how long?


As stated in the preceding posts, there is no benefit whatsoever in turning your tank into a toxic waste dump site. Ammonia is a lethal substance. It is lethal to many of the very same germs that you are trying to cultivate in the tank. That's why if you check under the kitchen sink you'll find a couple of cleaning and disinfectant products that contain ammonia.

Ammonia is even toxic to plants, but at the same time this substance is very high in Nitrogen, which is a critical component to life itself, so the plants have figured out a way to use it by storing it internally as Nitrate and then re-converting Nitrate back into Ammonia in order to use it. Ammonia in the water can also cause algal blooms to form if there is sufficient light in the tank. The use of Ammonia in tank cycling and in planted tanks specifically is a flawed and useless concept.

Since Ammonia is constantly being produced in any biological system, nature has devised a way to de-toxify the environment by the use of certain germs that, like plants, employ a mechanism to pull the Nitrogen from the Ammonia molecule. These are the bacteria that you are trying to cultivate in the sediment, in the water, in the filter and on every "wetted" surface in the tank. Bacterial species such as Nitrosonomas sp. are very popular for combining Oxygen and Ammonia to create Nitrite. Other species such as Nitrobacter sp. then combine Oxygen with Nitrite to create Nitrate.

The development of these species occurs naturally in any tank and the bacteria multiply quickly, however, certain numbers of the bacterial colony are required to effectively deal with the ammonia production of living systems. If you set your tank up and did nothing else, then in 6-8 weeks it's a certainty that sufficient populations of bacteria will have colonized filter, water, sediment and surfaces to deal with the waste production of a small population of fish. After another week the populations will have grown even more and that way more fish could be added. But everyone is impatient and instead of waiting, they want to add fish right away so the thinking is that by adding ammonia, this will generate the bacterial populations faster. Of course this doesn't really happen and those who go over the top wind up killing as many bacteria as they create simply due to toxic levels of Ammonia which also wipe out the other types of useful bacteria which perform other functions and which have nothing to do with nitrification. It's just like using Mr. Clean on your kitchen floor. Even the nitrifying bacteria themselves are killed because unless there is sufficient Oxygen, they cannot convert all that extra Ammonia anyway and the concentration levels fry them.

In a planted tank, the plants themselves help create the infrastructure for microbial action in the sediment and filter. They interact with the bacteria. Plants, if well fed and cared for, add Oxygen to the system and perform other functions such as excreting carbohydrates, proteins and amino acids which feed and encourage the development of all useful bacterial colonies. Plants will also uptake Ammonia and so will help in direct de-toxification of the tank, which helps support the fish.



			
				cabo650 said:
			
		

> My tap is extremely soft with 7.2 pH. I desire a stable pH of acidic to neutral.


Why? stable pH has no bearing on either plant or fish health. This is not a good goal and it will not help you to have a healthier tank. It is not the necessarily the tank pH itself which adds any benefit, but instead one has to determine the reasons of the movement of the pH. 


			
				cabo650 said:
			
		

> Not sure how to increase hardness to stabilize the pH without increasing the pH in the process. I read about adding baking soda to increase hardness, but this did not work and only raised pH to 7.6+


The more you worry about pH the less successful you will be, especially if you are operating a CO2 enriched tank. ph and KH are related but you have a poor understanding of this relationship. You need to go to the Water Chemistry sub-forum and carefully study the sticky thread All about Water Hardness

You should also pay a visit to the Tutorials sub-forum and read the articles there. This will help to focus your attention on the things in a planted tank that really matters. All the other things will automatically be taken care of if you execute the fundamentals correctly.

Cheers,


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## dw1305 (30 Sep 2010)

Hi all,


> If you set your tank up and did nothing else, then in 6-8 weeks it's a certainty that sufficient populations of bacteria will have colonized filter, water, sediment and surfaces to deal with the waste production of a small population of fish. After another week the populations will have grown even more and that way more fish could be added.





> In a planted tank, the plants themselves help create the infrastructure for microbial action in the sediment and filter. They interact with the bacteria. Plants, if well fed and cared for, add Oxygen to the system and perform other functions such as excreting carbohydrates, proteins and amino acids which feed and encourage the development of all useful bacterial colonies. Plants will also uptake Ammonia and so will help in direct de-toxification of the tank, which helps support the fish.


This is what I recommend as well, it saves a lot of heart-ache and problems. Even if you have a seeded filter, it will still take time for the tank to fully stabilise after it is planted. The weeks at the start aren't wasted, in some ways they are the most important time of all. It gives you time to think about your fish choice, re-assess your aquascape and plants, and evaluate filter placement, lighting, lighting regime etc. 

cheers Darrel


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## Iliveinazoo (1 Oct 2010)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> The use of Ammonia in tank cycling and in planted tanks specifically is a flawed and useless concept.
> 
> Since Ammonia is constantly being produced in any biological system, nature has devised a way to de-toxify the environment by the use of certain germs that, like plants, employ a mechanism to pull the Nitrogen from the Ammonia molecule. These are the bacteria that you are trying to cultivate in the sediment, in the water, in the filter and on every "wetted" surface in the tank. Bacterial species such as Nitrosonomas sp. are very popular for combining Oxygen and Ammonia to create Nitrite. Other species such as Nitrobacter sp. then combine Oxygen with Nitrite to create Nitrate.
> 
> The development of these species occurs naturally in any tank and the bacteria multiply quickly, however, certain numbers of the bacterial colony are required to effectively deal with the ammonia production of living systems. If you set your tank up and did nothing else, then in 6-8 weeks it's a certainty that sufficient populations of bacteria will have colonized filter, water, sediment and surfaces to deal with the waste production of a small population of fish.



Thought I would chime in here because this section could be read as if a tank could be cycled with water and nothing else.
Ammonia is required to cycle a fish tank and that can be done with bottled ammonia or decaying organic material (plant material or fish food).  The general consensus of opinion on this thread appears to be that decaying leaves will create the necessary bacteria to support a low initial fish load.

I think that the comment of 'leaving it a few days to add fish' is off the mark because even in a planted system it will take a while for the bacteria colonies to establish themselves, I think that the best advice would be to monitor the ammonia and nitrite levels closely and add the fish when the cycle is complete.


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## dw1305 (1 Oct 2010)

Hi all,


> Thought I would chime in here because this section could be read as if a tank could be cycled with water and nothing else. Ammonia is required to cycle a fish tank and that can be done with bottled ammonia or decaying organic material (plant material or fish food). The general consensus of opinion on this thread appears to be that decaying leaves will create the necessary bacteria to support a low initial fish load.


No, I really am saying that if you plant the tank, and then leave it until the plants are growing actively with a large biomass and you have some biofilm and periphyton,  you don't need to cycle it.  A planted tank is never really cycled in the conventional way (although an un-planted tank would be). You could definitely overwhelm even this system, with a substance with a very high BOD (or by introducing a truly huge fish load in one go).

Plants are very efficient as biological filters, and as long as you can supply sufficient oxygen (not a problem when the plants are actively photosynthesising) they have the ability to assimilate very large amounts of nitrogenous "waste".

Have a look here for a more complete reference (with apologies for the cross posting) <http://plecoplanet.com/?page_id=829>

cheers Darrel


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## Iliveinazoo (1 Oct 2010)

> No, I really am saying that if you plant the tank, and then leave it until the plants are growing actively with a large biomass and you have some biofilm and periphyton, you don't need to cycle it. A planted tank is never really cycled in the conventional way (although an un-planted tank would be). You could definitely overwhelm even this system, with a substance with a very high BOD (or by introducing a truly huge fish load in one go).
> 
> Plants are very efficient as biological filters, and as long as you can supply sufficient oxygen (not a problem when the plants are actively photosynthesising) they have the ability to assimilate very large amounts of nitrogenous "waste".
> 
> Have a look here for a more complete reference (with apologies for the cross posting) <http://plecoplanet.com/?page_id=829>



I was trying to clear up what could be read into because that is what I read.  So you should be sure that your plants are doing well before stocking to avoid casualties.

Thank you for the above clarification, I guess that means that there is some link as well between the level of plant biomass that should be added initially and how much you could stock your tank. 

I've just realised that I may have hijacked the thread.  Apologies Tommyleestaples I'll go back to my lurking.


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## ceg4048 (1 Oct 2010)

OK well what I am saying is that in a planted tank you don't need to add anything at all because you will automatically get decaying leaves, bit and pieces of organic matter and so forth that will form ammonia as they decay. You don't need to add ammonia or fish food or anything else. The rate of bacterial colony buildup will not be significantly impacted at all.

Furthermore, even in an unplanted tank the nitrogen cycle will happen as well. Speeds will perhaps be slower but it cannot be prevented unless you put bleach or disinfectant in the tank. This is what germs do, they multiply. So yes, a tank can be cycled with water and nothing else because you cannot stop germs form entering the tank. I've cycled tanks like this for decades and have never had a problem. It's only recently become fashionable to talk about adding ammonia. When I was a young brat my parents never let me anywhere near ammonia so I never even considered it. Many fatalities were caused when people would setup the tank the same day they got fish. Within a few weeks the fish would be dead and people would be demanding a refund for having been sold "faulty fish."

In a planted tank it doesn't matter if you just add fish after the cycle period. Even if it takes a week this doesn't matter because healthy plants will uptake the ammonia and will keep it at non-toxic levels. Of course if your plants are unhealthy then they don't uptake as much ammonia but if the tank is large enough the concentrations won't build faster than the bacterial populations will rise.

You don't really need to monitor with any test kit. 6-8 weeks does the trick. Do multiple large water changes per week, feed your plants, ensure good CO2 (if high tech) and you're off to the races. Problems happen because people can't wait to get the critters in the tank. Instead of building infrastructure they get impatient and cause lots of self inflicted damage.

Cheers,


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## Dave Spencer (2 Oct 2010)

Iliveinazoo said:
			
		

> Thought I would chime in here because this section could be read as if a tank could be cycled with water and nothing else..



Add a little light and, yes it can. The water is being bombarded with algae spores, dead bacteria, dust (dead flakes of human skin for example) day and night, and nitrifying bacteria plus myriad others will be present in the water already. All of these will produce an environment with all that is necessary to trigger life and the nitrifying cycle.

Add higher life forms such as plants and the system gains ever more momentum and a more robust nitrifying cycle.

Dave.


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## Iliveinazoo (2 Oct 2010)

When I didn't know much about the nitrogen cycle I had a tank 'cycling' with nothing but water, sand and rocks and this tank ran like that for about 2-3 months. When we added the fish the ammonia levels rocketed and the tank began its cycle.  To be fair though the tank's light fixture left off so it only received ambient light from the room and the fish in question were 3 baby Scats


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## ianheath (8 Oct 2010)

New to the whole game, of fish and plants, think i will stop dosing with ammonia do a water change tomorrow and leave it a bit. thanks for the information.


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