# Why the popping kettles?



## AverageWhiteBloke (16 Jun 2017)

As the title suggests, why would people's kettles be popping round my way? I noticed the change in water last week following a water change where my TDS didn't drop as much as usual. My tap water tends to be a TDS of around 39 with nothing to measure with GH/KH tests hits. Since they started blending the water from the well it has a TDS of 81 with 2dgh and 1dkh.
In the big scheme of things that's still pretty low as tap water goes in the UK. Is this a local phenomena or do people in hard water areas get that as well?


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## Tim Harrison (16 Jun 2017)

You mean kettles round your way never popped...I don't remember my kettle doing anything else


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## zozo (17 Jun 2017)

Mine always dances the samba around the kitchen.. But it still just tea instead of Tequila,,


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## Smells Fishy (17 Jun 2017)

zozo said:


> Mine always dances the samba around the kitchen.. But it still just tea instead of Tequila,,




Are you sure about the last part? Lol. Just played this and my kid went nuts, dancing on the spot, arms up in the air boogieing with a mouth full of soft cheese on toast. Nice one.


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## dw1305 (17 Jun 2017)

Hi all,





AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Since they started blending the water from the well it has a TDS of 81 with 2dgh and 1dkh.


Our kettle always does it, and we have hard water. Chemically it is called "bumping". 

You would need to ask a chemist, but I think it maybe to do with the carbonate~CO2 equilibrium, the bumping occurs where gas bubbles form around a nucleation point (look at a glass of lager, the bubbles are coming from discrete points on the glass wall where there are little scratches etc, these are the nucleation points). 

I think the nucleation points in this case are tiny bits of calcium carbonate (CaCO3) "scale" , which have come out of solution as the temperature rises and CO2 levels drop (gases are less soluble at higher temperatures).

If you normally have very soft water, with no dissolved CaCO3, you won't get the bumping.

cheers Darrel


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## zozo (17 Jun 2017)

dw1305 said:


> Chemically it is called "bumping".



I never realy gave it much thought, but noticed the water kettle on a gass stove doesn't do it. Only the Electrical heated, especialy short before the time it's fully coocking it pops the most.. Always thought it was the way the heat is dispersed to the water with a heated immmersed element, like the fizing and popping you hear when the blacksmith puts a hot iron into his water bucket. So that the water/steam wants to jump off that hot submersed element but has nowhere to go.

While a gass heated kettle also changes noice at the point off the waters latency. I mean the moment it is 100°C but yet not physically boiling.. Tho it is just a delicate change of sound i always could hear it 30 seconds before the kettle whistles it was coocking already. I have scared a few people in my life saying in the next 30 seconds or so the kettle whistles, because they never noticed the sound difference they thought i was psychic..


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## Tim Harrison (17 Jun 2017)

zozo said:


> Mine always dances the samba around the kitchen.. But it still just tea instead of Tequila,,



I also live in a hard water area, but give me tea over Tequila anytime


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## zozo (17 Jun 2017)

Tim Harrison said:


> I also live in a hard water area, but give me tea over Tequila anytime


Tequila is a good option for those calling the water company in panic asking if the ketle is about to explode..


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## AverageWhiteBloke (17 Jun 2017)

Tim Harrison said:


> You mean kettles round your way never popped...I don't remember my kettle doing anything else



Yeah we have very soft water round our way, never heard it before and TBH I haven't noticed it happening now but there's a lot of reports in the local rags and radio. I live in a very small town so anything is a big deal round here.



dw1305 said:


> You would need to ask a chemist, but I think it maybe to do with the carbonate~CO2 equilibrium, the bumping occurs where gas bubbles form around a nucleation point (look at a glass of lager, the bubbles are coming from discrete points on the glass wall where there are little scratches etc, these are the nucleation points).



I think I saw something on QI which was pretty similar to do with champagne, the bubble were actually caused by tiny particles of dirt in the glass.

I'm wounded, spent the last four weeks monitoring my TDS in the tank trying to soften my water to see if I can find how much ferts the tank actually needs using DWI and monitoring of the other plants using less dry salts. This change has threw all my calculations to cock. I hope they're not using the well for long I just don't trust my tapwater right now. Not just the make up more to do with them flushing hazardous chemicals out as they carry out the work. Plenty of prime on each WC I think. 
The water we got was from Ennerdale Lake which is just round from me but apparently EU law says we can't keep taking water from it as it's classed as a nature reserve, we now have to pipe into Thirlmere at a cost of £300 million. Straight Bananas are the last of our worries  

I maybe just nip to Ennerdale and grab some buckets of my own.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (17 Jun 2017)

Meant to say, where would the PH be coming from? Recently did some tests with a freshly calibrated PH pen, I'm getting 7.4 right now, generally it would be 7.2 which is already odd for V soft water.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (22 Jul 2017)

Told you this thing was going to kick off.  It's the talk of the town at the minute, only people doing well out of this is bottled water companies, everyone complaining that they are getting ill of it and it tastes horrible. As water goes in the UK it is still very soft. Amazing what the sound of popping kettles can do to the minds of people.


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## dw1305 (22 Jul 2017)

Hi all, 





AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Meant to say, where would the PH be coming from? Recently did some tests with a freshly calibrated PH pen, I'm getting 7.4 right now, generally it would be 7.2 which is already odd for V soft water.


Your water company will have a NaOH dosing plant to raise the pH of the water above pH7 and stop any copper or lead dissolving from old pipes. 

cheers Darrel


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## zozo (22 Jul 2017)

dw1305 said:


> NaOH


They use Caustic Soda for that? Amazing!


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## AverageWhiteBloke (22 Jul 2017)

dw1305 said:


> Your water company will have a NaOH dosing plant to raise the pH of the water above pH7 and stop any copper or lead dissolving from old pipes.



Most of the time my tank is acidic with co2 dosing so the high PH only really comes in just after WC or first thing in the morning to 2pm when co2 kicks in. Currently countering this with some Almond and Oak leaves. Doesn't really seem to be having much affect on the chemistry but the Ottos and Amanos seem to be into them so I'll just carry on I think.


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## zozo (22 Jul 2017)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Almond and Oak leaves.



Yes regarding Ph levels this is a fairytale, than you woud need realy a lot.. Same as peat, depending on the peat, if pressed into pellets one would need for example 1 litre   600 grams on 200 litres of water. I tried for a start 100 grams on 100 litre, the water turned almost tea brown and the pH didn't drop at all in 2 weeks. I imagine 300 grams on 100 litre would have made it coffee brown.. Might be something for something called biotoop tank but not for me.

But any amount is beneficial, it realeses very healthy humic substances and shrimp, fish (fry) eat of the micro-organism breaking down the leaves.. It's essential to have in the tank, you shouldn't go without..


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## AverageWhiteBloke (22 Jul 2017)

I also hear that tannins prevent metals becoming toxic from the traces, my tank water was extremely soft prior to this change and I suppose still is in a way although I would have preferred it to be softer so they can't do any harm there. the Rams still don't seem phased by it at all. They spawned the other day and my tank is at around 8dgh and 250ppm TDS.


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## alto (22 Jul 2017)

Tannin can contribute to acid pH if water is extremely soft
 - as Darrel mentions, water company boosts pH, though soda ash Na2CO3 is used rather than NaOH, newer facility now uses a lime/water slurry followed by CO2 gas - target pH as water leaves the faculty is pH 7.5 (pH 7.2 for soda ash)

Water out of my tap runs pH 6.5 - (scant) 7.0
Tanks run pH 6.0 - 6.5

Back when soda ash was the only pH boost, my tanks ran pH 6.0 - 6.2, when I added peat filtration (those nifty Eheim packs on clearance), tank ran pH 5.0 - 5.5 ...  I haven't used peat in years & didn't replace my pocket pH tester when it disappeared so haven't measured pH of tannin stained water (wood & botanicals)

Local water source is predominantly rain & snow melt.


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## zozo (22 Jul 2017)

alto said:


> Local water source is predominantly rain & snow melt.



In the end all fresh water is..  From rain rivers, like the Meuse river or glacier river like the Rhein. But all fresh water finaly comes from above.  I guess it depends where it runs through before it ends up in someone's tap .. No idea where my tapwater runs through, i'm stuck with a crapy + Ph 8,0 in my tanks..


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## alto (22 Jul 2017)

Water here is like a "bucket of rainwater" reservoir (area is considered a "rainforest")
 - alkalinity after treatment is less than 10mg/litre, calcium after treatment is less than 4 mg/l, nitrogens less than 0.1 mg/l, magnesium, potassium, phosphate etc is reported in ug/l


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## dw1305 (23 Jul 2017)

Hi all,





zozo said:


> They use Caustic Soda for that? Amazing!





alto said:


> as Darrel mentions, water company boosts pH, though soda ash Na2CO3 is used rather than NaOH


I initially assumed they would use sodium carbonate (which they use for water softening) but in the UK they are injecting NaOH, presumably because it is the cheapest option (it is a strong base so gives you more "_bang for your buck_").

Have a look at the Welsh Water link in the last post in <"All about water hardness">

It would make much more sense to add Na2CO3 (and be a lot safer).

I became aware of this initially when I was sent a water sample from the NW of England to test for phosphate (PO4---), and I found that there was a lot present. This led me to PIMS (phosphate induced metal stabilization) and also told me why people now had alkaline water with no buffering (all the OH- ions are in solution), when they had previously had soft acidic water.

cheers Darrel


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## zozo (23 Jul 2017)

dw1305 said:


> strong base so gives you more "_bang for your buck_"



I knew it from the early days, my dad was a painter he used it as paint stripper. Mom used it on blocked syphons under the sink.. Cabinet makers use it to preserve hardwood and give it patina. I know it's a strong base but it never occured to me that water companies use it on tap water.. But makes sense with all the copper pipes around.  Now it is mentioned i still have a bottle horticultural pH+ left from my growing vegie days in case i droped in to much pH-. It contains KOH and KHCO3 actualy equaly agressive. I more often used it for cleaning off calcium deposit in the toilet than on the plants.


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## dw1305 (23 Jul 2017)

Hi all,





zozo said:


> Now it is mentioned i still have a bottle horticultural pH+ left from my growing vegie days in case i droped in to much pH-. It contains KOH and KHCO3 actualy equaly agressive.


The potassium makes them more suitable for plant growing, but the raised pH would make other elements less available. Potassium hydroxide (KOH), and KHCO3, are pretty much the same as their sodium equivalents, but would cost more money.

I think there might be two more reasons why the  water companies are using NaOH, one would be that they were already using it for waste water treatment, so have the storage facilities etc. The other would be that they've moved over to orthophosphoric acid injection to control plumbosolvency (it is cheaper than other sources PO4--- ions, like sodium phosphate). 

I haven't had a look through it, but the <"DWI report for the Northern Region"> may have some relevant details for the OP in it.

cheers Darrel


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## AverageWhiteBloke (23 Jul 2017)

Thanks for that @dw1305 had a quick scan but I'll read it in full when I get home. I have attached my local water report, as it happens quite nice stuff as far as keeping softwater species. This was prior to the blending. Not sure what's coming out at the minute, tests were...

39 TDS
0GH
0KH (both with tests kits, even with a 10ml sample colour changed on first drop)
7.2 PH

New Tests
85 TDS
2Gh
1KH
7.4PH

I'm from Whitehaven which is the most NW tip, my understanding is that while work is being carried out connecting us to Thirlmere the water company is using up some bore water from Egremont to top up. Previously all our water came from Ennerdale Lake, V soft, runs over granite and mainly moss and ferns out there. I don't supposed the local authority will be giving out reports other than to the people who are accusing it of making them ill or dry skin. They are only topping up as needed with the bore water so I guess the parameters are going to fluctuate anyway. I think it's down to rivers that are being drained by Ennerdale which contain protected species following some EU directive, plus the way they are building houses round our way the population has boomed over the last few years putting more stress on supply. The cynic in me says local builders are using up some incentives to build houses supposedly "affordable" but believe me they build far more high end stuff round here than affordable. I would say locally the amount of new housing runs into the thousands and there was plenty of empty houses for sale to begin with.


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