# Protip: If you're not Plantbrain, stop posting like you are



## wet (20 Oct 2013)

This hobby has turned into such an echo chamber new ideas aren't even expressed any more.  Just because Tom has the weight and knowledge and years of experience to post long interesting thoughts while occasionally destroying others, don't go around being a jerk to fellow gardeners, guys.

Ever wonder why so many old timers don't post anymore?  Maybe that's why.  What culture are we adopting?


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## BigTom (20 Oct 2013)

Hi Wet.

If you feel anyone in particular has overstepped a mark, then I'm sure a quiet message to George or Paulo would lead to them addressing the issue responsibly if they agreed that it was out of order.

All in all I reckon this is one of the politest and friendliest forums around, but I expect some of the people who have the most in depth knowledge and post the most extensive replies probably get a bit fatigued about often having to answer the same questions over and over again, so you can perhaps understand an abrupt tone now and again. Clive obviously is a special case and has his own inimitable posting style ( ), but probably contributes more to this forum than almost anyone else - once you've been here a while you'll see he's the same way with everyone. Although you mention old-timers, so maybe you're a returnee?

In any online community like this you inevitably end up with quite a lot of people passing on info in an authoritative tone, which in many cases they themselves have probably only recently acquired, but at least here that info is generally a lot more accurate than you'll find in many other places!


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## wet (20 Oct 2013)

But isn't that the problem? Folks assume they know the answer and don't ask questions.

So let's say I am Alice the new gardener, and I'm just curious and want to understand my tank better. Let's say I *like* math. Let's say I *like* the fun of playing scientist because it makes my hobby *fun*

What happens when Bob, Charlie, Danielle, Erin, etc, etc just keep posting that I'm doing it wrong without ever answering my math or playing scientist questions. Who is really doing it wrong?

I'm not talking about a guy. I'm talking about a culture that is taking over this hobby and is turning away more people than you may think.

But yes, I LOVE UKAPS and you guys are awesome and a standard for plant clubs and forums. Shout out to APC, too, though   And I really appreciate the reply and discussion, BigTom.


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## Michael W (20 Oct 2013)

I agree with Tom this forum is hands down the most polite forum I have been to. The members really do know their stuff and sometimes they express themselves in their own way, perhaps they don't even know they're using a tone which may otherwise come across as rude. As Tom mentions Clive does not care who you are he just gives you the information as it is, he won't hold back with his knowledge, he will go all out inorder to prove facts and provide information to myth bust if you will.


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## wet (20 Oct 2013)

What myth?  That other people may have fun with their tanks in a way different than the echo chamber?


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## BigTom (20 Oct 2013)

wet said:


> But isn't that the problem? Folks assume they know the answer and don't ask questions.
> 
> What happens when Bob, Charlie, Danielle, Erin, etc, etc just keep posting that I'm doing it wrong without ever answering my math or playing scientist questions. Who is really doing it wrong?


 

Yeah that's a fair enough peave and something you see all over the net. I think we're very lucky here to have people like Tom, Clive and Darrel who can discuss such questions with reasonable rigour, but at the end of the day they are only three people with infinitely better things to do with their time (maybe!). I really dislike the way that factoids and misconceptions can easily end up as aquarium 'lore', but at the end of the day you have to pick something to believe, and if two or three of the guys mentioned above have weighed in on something and reached a reasonable consensus, then I'm normally happy to go with that as a best guess.

Inevitably, with so many parameters involved in keeping fish and plants and so little proper scientific study, a good guess is normally the best you can hope for. However, with enough experience and background understanding of the chemistry and biology involved, those guesses can often be pretty close to the money, and there are plenty of myths that can be disproved with counter examples.

It's always a lot easier to present something as a fact than typing paragraphs and paragraphs of ifs and buts though...


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## Michael W (20 Oct 2013)

wet said:


> What myth? That other people may have fun with their tanks in a way different than the echo chamber?


 
People may want to have fun and all but what if they approach certain things in a wrong way like thinking nutrient rich waters causes algae and that carpet plants love high lighting to stop their leggy growth? They may be having fun initially but once they cling on to these ideas and start trying resolving problem with a false idea which will no doubt lead to more problems instead of fixing it. If they carry that on where is the fun in that? And what if then someone tells them that their approach is totally wrong too? Where is the fun in that? Why not educate them from the start preventing these problems which may lead to disappointment in the end?


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## wet (20 Oct 2013)

No disrespect, but when Plantbrain posts his thoughts and backs it up with tanks everyone listens.  When folks pretend to be Plantbrain and don't post pics of plus plus PLUS tanks, that's just noise.

And I'm posting to UKAPS and APC because it is so special   I seriously can't even read other forums any more.  But the culture shift from 5, 8, 9 years ago is depressing.


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## wet (20 Oct 2013)

"People may want to have fun and all but what if they approach certain things in a wrong way like thinking nutrient rich waters causes algae and that carpet plants love high lighting to stop their leggy growth? They may be having fun initially but once they cling on to these ideas and start trying resolving problem with a flase idea which will no doubt lead to more problems instead of fixing it. If they carry that on where is the fun in that? And what if then someone tells them that their approach is wrong too? Where is the fun in that?"

Do you really think there's only one way to grow a tank?  

Do you really think it's more fun to read a know it all than to learn on your own and get your questions answered?

"How do I..."

"STFU and do this, noob"

That's what this culture is doing and we're spending so much time defending it we're not seeing it.  Seriously.


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (20 Oct 2013)

I think this is rather Dramatic.


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## wet (20 Oct 2013)

Cool. Thanks for considering my opinion and engaging in conversation, dude.  I thought this was an Internet forum.


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## Michael W (20 Oct 2013)

I really don't think this whole "STFU and do this, noob" is really happening at least on UKAPS, I believe I have yet to read something which goes along that line. True some members may dismiss other's theories/methods but they do provide reasons why during the thread's life. 

Having fun or not can't be judged from anyone else but one's self so I have kind of slapped myself in the face when I said perhaps making mistakes may cause people to not have fun. But most of the time when I see people "not have fun" is when the mistakes happen and they try desperately to salvage their mistakes. What if this was prevented from the start?


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## wet (20 Oct 2013)

Hey Michael W.

That's interesting. But we can do that in threads where folks are planning their tanks. But folks who are asking about details? Folks who ask specific questions about how to do molar mass calculations or verification or, well, basically doing their homework? Why don't they get those questions answered?

I mean, if someone wants to shill their solution, great. But at least answer the person's questions too instead of saying they do not matter.  And when someone doesn't answer those questions, I really doubt they have enough understanding of the subject matter to explain it to a beginner.  And that's a problem.


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (20 Oct 2013)

wet said:


> Cool. Thanks for considering my opinion and engaging in conversation, dude. I thought this was an Internet forum.


 

Why start a whole topic on this? For one, its complete nonsense.
Nobody is telling you to 'STFU' or how to run your tank, only fair opinions, and if your asking for their opinion, then you must put up with what people on here have to say. I have been on here for 3 years? And have never seen any real hostility between members. Those who have shown any kind of this behaviour were quickly dealt with, but they are so few in numbers.

Do as advised and let an admin know, and stop making out everyone on this forum is a bad egg.


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## wet (20 Oct 2013)

Dude, Nathaniel, work on your reading comprehension and feel free to lay off this thread.

I like UKAPS.  I like this hobby.  I like beginners.  You're the one that needs to chill out.  I'm talking about how to further the hobby, and if you can't hear me, don't read it dude.  I am not pooping in your threads.


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (20 Oct 2013)

Oh and the reason why people Respect Plantbrains opinion, is one he is a long serving forum member and contributes to different topics/subjects in a way that people understand, and has had the EXPERIENCE in Aquaria.

Experience = knowledge.


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## wet (20 Oct 2013)

Right, so if you don't have that experience, maybe you should let Plantbrain post in his style and find your own style.


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## Alastair (20 Oct 2013)

So what your basically saying is that someone who clearly has an extremely vast amount of knowledge when it comes to healthy plant keeping and proof that methods work, shouldn't because they're not tom barr??
That's what this forum is here for so that we can all share personal experiences and that of others.  
Tom has a great deal of knowledge but so do others on here.
Ive learnt many a thing from tom and also plenty of things from other members on here and wouldnt be where I am today with my tanks if it weren't for these people.  
Seems like a rant thread to me which was and is very unnecessary.  
As a few have stated pm a mod or one of the founders if you dont like how someone is or works on here.


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (20 Oct 2013)

wet said:


> Right, so if you don't have that experience, maybe you should let Plantbrain post in his style and find your own style.


 
I'm not claiming I possess any more experience than you, am I? I don't understand the whole logic of this conversation and what you aim to achieve.


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## Michael W (20 Oct 2013)

Ok guys I think we should leave it as it is? In theory no one is wrong right? At then end of the day Its all about opinions and how we choose to learn things right? If people can't find answers from here or other forums they can choose to either leave to another or to ask more questions leading to their desired answers?


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## wet (20 Oct 2013)

Okay. But I'm really not trolling anyone and I really do care about this hobby and gardening. 

If anyone wants to discuss that, we should. If you are only seeing a complaint and not ideas how to progress, let's not discuss it because that will make it cooler for everyone. 

I'm checking in here and APC if anyone would like.


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## tim (20 Oct 2013)

Maybe the problem is there's not a lot new left in the world, let alone this hobby  personally I'm thankful for the newbie bashings I took when I joined ukaps, generally they were polite and informative and money saving In the long run. Plantbrain as you state has a wealth of knowledge and I'd personally be glad to have this passed on first second or third hand, rather than the costly advice you generally receive at lfs. Long rein the parrot fashion posters


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## wet (20 Oct 2013)

Great post. And you're right: Tom's influence has been huge. Maybe the hugest. 

A thought though: what if there is a lot new left?  I started out into the chemistry and then got into a cool sump/reverse refugium thing that some folks may remember and then got into this crazy sunlit paludarium thing. All were cool tanks but applied old/forgotten lessons. Old is the new new 

I recall a poster who programmed a iPhone calc off mine that is now doing arduino programming and is one of the leaders in DIY light meters. 

I recall AaronT knowing tons about chemistry and nutrition and leading the way with soil. 

It's different for different people. That's all I'm saying. It's our responsibility as experienced gardeners to *answer the original question* even when that involves math and chemistry.


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## Michael W (20 Oct 2013)

Yes Tim, at the end of the day we're all trying to achieve healthy setups, should we dwell too much on how, where and from who this information comes from if the goal is the same?


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## wet (20 Oct 2013)

Hey Michael W,

Yes we should dwell on how. Otherwise we're not really understanding our gardens. 

But I acknowledge really that some folks do not care how  I am hoping folks ack that other do.


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## Michael W (20 Oct 2013)

wet said:


> It's our responsibility as experienced gardeners to *answer the original question* even when that involves math and chemistry.


 
The thing is though perhaps some of us can't give these exact maths and chemistry to back up our explanations and the way we work with this hobby but does this mean we're wrong? Not necessarily. I understand some people want to develop their knowledge and understand the technical side of things. I myself can't explain certain things to the extent of Tom, Clive, Darrel and other experienced members of the forum but I can offer experience and my methods which has worked for me. Could this not be foundations for the member who proposed a question to look into why the method worked and therefore come to a conclusion themselves?

Yes there is nothing wrong with working maths and chemistry into answers but you must understand that this is a hobby after all, and giving numbers etc may create a fun hobby into something more complicated. Instead why not offer the fundamental ideas which will allow success and progress. Once these are achieved the maths and chemistry will come naturally as one tries to experiment with different ideas and looking why X works but Y fails comparing differences.

P.S Sorry what I had meant was "how" the information comes across to you as in tones/attitudes, *not* "how" certain things happen.


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## foxfish (20 Oct 2013)

Hi wet, an interesting thread, you have caused lots of interest & you do have some valid points!


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## tim (20 Oct 2013)

wet said:


> Great post. And you're right: Tom's influence has been huge. Maybe the hugest.
> 
> A thought though: what if there is a lot new left?  I started out into the chemistry and then got into a cool sump/reverse refugium thing that some folks may remember and then got into this crazy sunlit paludarium thing. All were cool tanks but applied old/forgotten lessons. Old is the new new
> 
> ...


I agree, and I think tom is the main advocate of hobbyists questioning methods/ approaches and not just being sheep so to speak, unfortunately I think people misconstrued your first post and thought you were here to bash ukaps, hopefully members will realise that isn't your intention and you'll have some good discussions, me I'm rubbish at maths


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## wet (20 Oct 2013)

Hey Michael. I agree with most of that. My distinction is when someone asks a specific chemistry/math problem in the title with a very well thought out post with example calculations. Telling that person it doesn't matter is a different case than "what do I put into my tank to grow plants," you know?

We should definitely help both those types of gardeners, I agree fully!


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## BigTom (20 Oct 2013)

With all due respect to Wet, the original post does come across as a bit of a rant, and it's taken us until page 2 to figure out what the thread is actually supposed to be about (I think, I'm still not entirely sure!).

A less antagonistic and more focused post might have been preferable....


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## Michael W (20 Oct 2013)

ok I feel as though I know where you are coming from now, as Tim has said I was perhaps misguided from your first post. 

I do feel great that you have posted this thread though as I believe through talking people can come to an understand of each other not just in this case but outside of this.


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## wet (20 Oct 2013)

Yeah my bad. I'm kind of used to just posting stuff like that on planted forums, but forgot I'd been away from forums for a while. It's been such a bum out reading certain forums though, you guys. 

Love you.


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## NatureBoy (20 Oct 2013)

Wet, I'm guessing you are coming to this forum a bit jaded, honestly most people or "folks" on here are simple folks who enjoy the hobby for the simple pleasures it brings. We don't get very political and are generally a humble bunch of folk. we get a bit confused from time to time but generally advance our understanding, most on here reckon phosphates are a good thing, etc. We don't spend much time procrastinating unless its about a new filter purchase or making a move to LED lights. Overall we get a bit baffled by folks that take on the world via forum posts that don't seem to be based on plant growth, like I say we are simple folks


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## tim (20 Oct 2013)

wet said:


> Yeah my bad. I'm kind of used to just posting stuff like that on planted forums, but forgot I'd been away from forums for a while. It's been such a bum out reading certain forums though, you guys.
> 
> Love you.


We just don't rant on ukaps, it's just not British


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## Tim Harrison (20 Oct 2013)

BigTom said:


> With all due respect to Wet, the original post does come across as a bit of a rant, and it's taken us until page 2 to figure out what the thread is actually supposed to be about (I think, I'm still not entirely sure!).
> 
> A less antagonistic and more focused post might have been preferable....


 

I might have something to contribute also...but TBH I'm still not entirely sure exactly what's being discussed either...

...and what's an echo chamber


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## tim (20 Oct 2013)

NatureBoy said:


> like I say we are simple folks


Are you saying we are thick ?  sorry can't help myself


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## wet (20 Oct 2013)

I'm saying math and chemistry threads and folks experimenting with stuff and breaking current rules is good when paired with best practices (because EI does not encompass best practices, of course). 

It's okay to be wrong. It's fun to try and understand why we fail. That's what gardeners do, I think, and nutrients/CO2 (after initial investment) costs *pennies*. LED lights and pumps and stuff that plants don't eat cost many many many more pennies.


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## Michael W (20 Oct 2013)

tim said:


> Are you saying we are thick ?


 
Just slightly simple minded


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## ghostsword (20 Oct 2013)

There is so much to learn that any tidbit of information given is like gold dust.

I create a thread, Clive, Tom or many of the other experts here come along and say point blank what I am doing is wrong, hell yes, I will appreciate that they had taken the time to actually said something.

Quick, to the point, simple and easy to follow, that is what we need, not hand holding and cotton wool. 

I don't want to follow the advice? Suffer pain instead.


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## Wallace (20 Oct 2013)

Troi said:


> I might have something to contribute also...but TBH I'm still not entirely sure exactly what's being discussed either...
> 
> ...and what's an echo chamber



I've read it, and re-read it and I'm not sure it makes a whole lot of sense. 

What I can gather is that the OP is a MASSIVE fan of Tom Barr. 

Maybe I'm being thick but like Alistair said earlier in the thread, basically unless you are TB don't bother?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wet (20 Oct 2013)

Of course I am a fan of Tom Barr.  And Amano.  And Farmer.  And Ghori.  And Rex before he disappeared.  And Aaron.  And Cavan.  And niko.  And... and... and...

And yes apparently my point was lost.  I can re-explain if you'd like: we should answer math and science questions and not dismiss them because EI works.


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## George Farmer (20 Oct 2013)

Hi wet,

Interesting topic. Your title scared me a bit. I thought you were a troll!

I hope to see you more active on here - maybe in a slightly less controversial manner... The more experts the better, and maybe you'll offer something refreshing in terms of advice. 

Cheers
George


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## NatureBoy (20 Oct 2013)

yes can we have a "protip" of the day!


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## wet (20 Oct 2013)

Thanks for the welcome, George.  I'll try to tone it down.


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## jacaranda (20 Oct 2013)

This thread just seems like a childish attempt to call someone out (ceg2028)
and its not very pro to offer a tip in this manner!


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## wet (20 Oct 2013)

Again, I am not calling anyone in particular out, dude.  I am calling out a part of what's happening in forums EVERYWHERE and chose my two current favorites to talk about it.  It's systematic, not an individual.  And I am absolutely calling out that systematic dismissal of part of the hobby.


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## NatureBoy (20 Oct 2013)

wet said:


> Again, I am not calling anyone in particular out, dude. I am calling out a part of what's happening in forums EVERYWHERE and chose my two current favorites to talk about it. It's systematic, not an individual. And I am absolutely calling out that systematic dismissal of part of the hobby.


 
i'd say it's a direct result of this thread Dry ferts - please help me with the maths | Page 2 | UK Aquatic Plant Society and does smack of having a pop.

Gain respect through the advice you offer, etc people will choose, no need to go head to head or toe to toe.


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## wet (20 Oct 2013)

That's a symptom of it, yes. There's many threads I did not post in on many forums that I read.

"smack of having a pop" is called a call out where I come from. And yes that is what I am doing. How can I make this clearer?

I apologize if this is offensive to you. This degradation into some monoculture of advice from the wide range we used to have, before everyone repeated themselves repeating another guy, is kind of offensive to me, too. I like gardening and seeing new ideas.


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## NatureBoy (20 Oct 2013)

wet said:


> That's a symptom of it, yes. There's many threads I did not post in on many forums that I read.
> 
> "smack of having a pop" is called a call out where I come from. And yes that is what I am doing. How can I make this clearer?
> 
> I apologize if this is offensive to you. This degradation into some monoculture of advice from the wide range we used to have, before everyone repeated themselves repeating another guy, is kind of offensive to me, too. I like gardening and seeing new ideas.


 
 but you just said you weren't calling anyone out...this is confusing.

If you want to contribute your advice, there's nothing stopping you, but I'd have to say you do mention Tom Barr an awful lot!


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## Ian Holdich (20 Oct 2013)

I don't see the point of trying to 'call out' someone on an open forum, this can be done via pm or other means. We all have choices in life, and whether we/you decide to take said advice on the matter us up to you. We know Tom and Clive offer some great advice on this forum, as do others. Trying to bait someone into arguing on a thread, because that is how this thread begins isn't on, and this is what we don't do on UKAPs, were much more grown up than that. 

We can disagree with what and how people state things, there is just sometimes a bit more of a grown up way to do things. Please keep this thread on a 'level' or it will be locked.


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## wet (20 Oct 2013)

Okay. One more try.

1) I am calling out a systematic thing where folks trying new things or questioning things that are apparently uncool now (math, molar weights, chemical equations, scales, etc, etc) do not have questions answered and are instead pointed to EI in some version with little regard to measurement. I think guys who ask these types of questions are joining aquaria to answer those questions. It's a good thing.

2) I do not wish to say some person is the issue, because it's not a person. Every forum seems to have a couple of Tom Barr fans because he's really smart.

3) I am a fan of Tom Barr's. I moderate on his forum and have for years. I like Tom. I think he's really smart. I also think he's a jerk and abrasive sometimes (I am too, one of the things I like about Tom).

4) I am being abrasive here to the folks I feel are stifling number 1) above. I am dismissing their loyalty to EI like they dismiss mathematics and molar weights and chemical equations and scales and tell those guys to do it differently. Because I am one of those guys.

But I get you don't get it. I am not trolling you. I am a gardener sharing an opinion about something I think is hurting this hobby for the reasons I keep restating in this thread. I am sorry you do not see it. Seriously. But this attitude against treating our tanks as measurable and interesting systems for everyone and every beginner is BAD for the hobby.


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## BigTom (20 Oct 2013)

Well, put me down as bemused.


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## wet (20 Oct 2013)

If anyone gets what I'm talking about I'd like to talk about how we bring the fundamentals of what's happening with chemistry, math, and understanding what a part per million is, and how these things all interact with one another, and, I don't know, curiosity, back to our tanks.  Let's do that an explore some cool new stuff and post in forums that don't get derailed with some copy paste EI stuff that says we don't need the fundamentals.

If folks don't find that interesting you don't have to post and I don't have to respond  If folks feel offended by this thread feel free to post and I will respond.


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## Alastair (20 Oct 2013)

Then surely you yourself being a moderator on a forum such as toms should know that calling people out and opening threads as you did isnt setting good standards?? 
Everyone on ukaps welcomes opinions and advice from anyone who has lots of useful and insightful information which im sure you yourself seem to have but this is a nice friendly forum and we dont see posts started like this often.... if at all. 

I appreciate your frustration in your points your making and you may have a fair point but to start your postings off with such a post as this started out to be was just a little out of line. 

If you like to talk about fundamentals of ppm how it all works ,  our tanks etc which I too myself like then start threads on these and im sure lots of us including myself would contribute to or even learn from it. Seemed a funny way to go about that if that was your aim


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## wet (20 Oct 2013)

That's fair and my approach offended folks. But I post stuff similar to this (if the first post is what you are offended by) to other planted forums and forgot my place: I am new here and folks will assume I am malicious when really I want to make us think and have folks make me think and grabbing attention is more an ice breaker than offensive to me. I actually would not have moderated this thread just as it appears ukaps hasn't really moderated it either. 

So for that I apologize.


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## wet (21 Oct 2013)

Feel free to lock this actually, and I rescind my promise to respond to posts. This isn't worth it and it's clear my posts are just ignored and misread and I must communicate badly. I'm not rage quitting. I am apologizing for invading your community. 

Later. See you on APC and at the next AGA.


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## ajadcock (21 Oct 2013)

I completely understand what your saying wet, if slightly abruptly 

It does quite often seem to be the mentality when somebody asks a question - throw the standard copy/paste response at them without giving them the time of day. 
I see it on every forum not just aquatics/planted tanks. 

People will never change  

Adam


Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 2


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## John S (21 Oct 2013)

ajadcock said:


> throw the standard copy/paste response at them without giving them the time of day.


 
I don't see it. If the person believes that the "standard copy/paste response" is of use to the original poster then surely there isn't a problem?

I certainly don't see people not being given the time of day here.


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## foxfish (21 Oct 2013)

I will be looking out for you post Mr Wet, I am pretty content to go with the flow but always prepared to listen.


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## jacaranda (21 Oct 2013)

So there's enthusiasts that try and help people with the info they have learned.....
is that such a bad thing?  Really? 

I browse a lot of forums and dont see people offering c&p responses "without giving them the time of day"
What I see is people trying to assist and help people to improve their hobby and therefore overall enjoyment of their tank by helping them succeed.


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## ajadcock (21 Oct 2013)

Thats kinda the point - its no use to anybody! 
Dont get me wrong I greatly appreciate all the advice/critique/cheap plants that I've had from various members on here! And the fact we can discuss things like this without it devolving into a slanging match  

Adam


Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 2


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (21 Oct 2013)

ajadcock said:


> Thats kinda the point - its no use to anybody!
> Dont get me wrong I greatly appreciate all the advice/critique/cheap plants that I've had from various members on here! And the fact we can discuss things like this without it devolving into a slanging match
> 
> Adam
> ...



What if said user has not seen the 'Original post'?

Do you just ignore them?


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## Samuran (21 Oct 2013)

I have no idea what those last 4 pages were really about....

Ben


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## Alastair (21 Oct 2013)

Is this still going lol.....


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## ajadcock (21 Oct 2013)

Its not when an enthusiast helps out, its when you get the response "do X and it'll work" - why will it work? What is the reasoning behind the response? 

Knowledge is power  lol

I'm not nearly articulate enough to make my point without sounding a total douche lol 

Adam

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 2


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## Pedro Rosa (21 Oct 2013)

Is this the fastest thread ever on UKAPs? 
With this kind of contents? 

Truly speaking this thread is distracting "new posts" because i can't see any updates without visiting. Should i see a doctor? Is there any doctor out there?


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (21 Oct 2013)

Only one cure... Royal rumble.


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## Samuran (21 Oct 2013)

hahaha 

Can't we just play rock, paper, scissors, lizard, spock? 

Ben


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## Andy D (21 Oct 2013)

Wow! I think I understand what was being said but it is not clear.

I 'think' the point that was trying to be made is twofold.

1. EI is just used as a blanket repsonse to ferts when some people 'may' want to understand the exacting requirements for a given species/tank.

2. Most people simply regurgitate info they have read without having any true understanding of the topic itself.

For option 1 I think EI is used as a blanket response for good reason as it is a very straightforward (ish) method of adding ferts to a tank. I cannot believe there are many that want it in any more depth than this and if they do I think there are only a handful of people who actually understand the chemistry involved.  

For option 2 I again think there are only a handful of peope who TRULY understand the chemistry involved. Regurgitaing of any information on a forum is a very very common practice and again I think this is something you will find hard to get away from as full understanding of a given topic is limited to a very special few.

If I have got this wrong then I apoliogise.


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## dw1305 (21 Oct 2013)

Hi all,
This is an interesting thread, 





BigTom said:


> .......who can discuss such questions with reasonable rigour, but at the end of the day they are only three people with infinitely better things to do with their time (maybe!)


 I'm not sure I have got anything better to do with my time, and although I've made almost 3,000 posts on UKAPS, I've basically said the same thing about 3,000 times. 





wet said:


> But folks who are asking about details? Folks who ask specific questions about how to do molar mass calculations or verification or, well, basically doing their homework? Why don't they get those questions answered?


I think we do try and answer these sorts of questions <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/epsom-salts.22215/#post-227644>, <Introduction Of (CaNO3)2 into Dosing Regime. | UK Aquatic Plant Society> & <For Dan ... Spezial N - Nitrogen Fertilizer | UK Aquatic Plant Society>.

I think we all owe a debt to Tom, he has done an enormous amount for the hobby, and de-bunked a lot of myths, but in the end it  is really all down to finding a method that works for you. For me my life long interest has been plants, (and I trained as a botanist), but after that it is all about low tech., KISS solutions and long term set-ups and I'm not really very much interested in gadgets, CO2, EI, carpets, aquascaping or photography etc., but I understand that others will have very different interests and intentions.

I always like to know "why"? but in a lot of cases you really aren't going to be able to find a definitive answer.

cheers Darrel


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (21 Oct 2013)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> This is an interesting thread,  I'm not sure I have got anything better to do with my time, and although I've made almost 3,000 posts on UKAPS, I've basically said the same thing about 3,000 times. I think we do try and answer these sorts of questions.
> 
> I think we all owe a debt to Tom, he has done an enormous amount for the hobby, and de-bunked a lot of myths.
> ...




Don't tell Wet


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## Tim Harrison (21 Oct 2013)

Andy D said:


> Wow! I think I understand what was being said but it is not clear.
> 
> I 'think' the point that was trying to be made is twofold.
> 
> ...


 
Sounds about right to me, what do you think wet?...
...wet...wet...WET...are you still there?...wet...
...I think he's gone...


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (21 Oct 2013)

I particularly like how there is so much love flying about in this hate thread. 

All I see is little red hearts.


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## oldbloke (21 Oct 2013)

I'm not sure I have got anything better to do with my time, and although I've made almost 3,000 posts on UKAPS, I've basically said the same thing about 3,000 times.
 It's good stuff though


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## roadmaster (21 Oct 2013)

I'll take the way Tom,Darrel,Clive, other's here put thing's any day ,for that is how I need to hear it.(That's just me)
I pissed away valuable time reading the rambling's of some(not all),on APC,TPT,who often times confused me  not so much from info, or lack thereof, but on attack's on Mr. Barr,and other memebr's and their method or that method.
When I asked why these folk's attacked someone who was not available to respond,,my post was removed. 
I got nowhere, and stumbled (literally) on to this forum and learned gob's more that I expected with respect to what is important to plant's and what is not.
I have little interest in personality conflict's which appear's to me,,,to be the only content in this thread thus far.
I simply came seeking simplest way to get good plant growth with minimum algae,and If I want to get all scientific,,I am comfortable that there are those here that can oblige minus,,, the personality conflict's and rambling's associated with them.
Most valuable advice I received was..choose a method and a person,and follow that method/advice to achieve desired result's.
I appreciate other view's and keep them in mind, but  trying to utilize bit's and pieces of differing view's and work them in to what I was trying to accomplish, only brought more confusion.
I very much like the folk's here who helped me decipher what was important,and what was not so important for the method I chose where before,,, I was unsuccessful in  growing much of anything other than algae.


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## Tim Harrison (21 Oct 2013)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> This is an interesting thread, I'm not sure I have got anything better to do with my time, and although I've made almost 3,000 posts on UKAPS, I've basically said the same thing about 3,000 times. I think we do try and answer these sorts of questions <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/epsom-salts.22215/#post-227644>, <Introduction Of (CaNO3)2 into Dosing Regime. | UK Aquatic Plant Society> & <For Dan ... Spezial N - Nitrogen Fertilizer | UK Aquatic Plant Society>.
> 
> I think we all owe a debt to Tom, he has done an enormous amount for the hobby, and de-bunked a lot of myths, but in the end it is really all down to finding a method that works for you. For me my life long interest has been plants, (and I trained as a botanist), but after that it is all about low tech., KISS solutions and long term set-ups and I'm not really very much interested in gadgets, CO2, EI, carpets, aquascaping or photography etc., but I understand that others will have very different interests and intentions.
> ...


 
Well said Darrell. Personally I don't feel at all comfortable posting on subjects I don't have first hand experience with, but also appreciate that when I do post I'm only offering what often amounts to nothing more than an opinion, it's then up to those who bother to read my ramblings whether they take notice or not.

Often, if I don't have experience or I think it's already been covered in a way that's far better than I could ever regurgitate I'll try to find the link and post that instead, and unsurprisingly it usually ends up being originally written by Tom B, Darrell or the inimitable Clive (who is Clive...is he even black...or for that matter a gangster rapper...or is he even a he...who knows).

But by the same measure it's sometimes healthy to challenge established paradigms, lore, dogma, whatever - which I think is what wet was trying to do...in his own way.

I myself prefer to challenge using the Socratic Method. For those of you not familiar with this wonderful philosopher's philosophy it involves asking the right questions to stimulate critical thinking and hence illuminate ideas. I think this is a good way to elicit an appropriately positive response and therefore hopefully come to a helpful and productive conclusion. And who knows...perhaps reinforce the value of established practice, or if I'm incredibly lucky cause something of a paradigm shift that is actually helpful to others...

Where this forum seems to differ from others of similar ilk - some of which are over the pond - is that there is a pervasive culture of gentle comradeship - we're all in this together - and we all do the best to help one another out. Plus we're very lucky to have many patient, helpful and knowledgeable enthusiast from which to draw required information and who are prepared to enter in to open-minded discussion which sometimes pushes the boundaries of this hobby. Team work guys...perhaps that's why UKAPS is one of the most active forums out there...


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## sa80mark (21 Oct 2013)

Some of the latest post seems to have turned this thread around to a ukaps love in  which is damn right this forum is without a doubt the best I have ever found and ever been part off,

I am terrible at writing posts, giving opinions and advice basically although im english I am terrible with english if that makes sense and thats why posts by the likes of clive, darrel, tom and many many other members are in my eyes perfect, they are to the point, back up what the say, have infinitely more knowledge and experience,  I dont think ive come across a post by anyone on here thats not been helpful

For example someone posted this mprning about reusing filter media and I felt confident enough to try and help so I advised boiling the media for peace of mind or a bleach solution soak, darrel replyed to the same thread saying he doesnt like bleach, now to me thats good you get 2 differing opinions so ultimately you can make a choice,  this is what its all about, 

Will I advise on algae well yes and no, if ive read advice that will help I will happily parrot it, again this is what its about

I do kind of get why people can take things the wrong way but I think above all else people need to remember were here to get help and advice if you dont like the advice thats given then simply ignore it, thats the wonderful thing about the world we live in ultimately its our choice, 

For me if ive got problem x and told y will help/ solve my problem im not going to argue it, im going to change whats needed as for me thats what I want when I post a simple to the point answer, I guess im saying id rarther be told im an idiot and doing it wrong than have smoke blown up my a@@e and waste time, money and effort,

I for one love ukaps, love the abundance of help and advise and if im completely honest I think I love clive


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## Andy D (21 Oct 2013)

sa80mark said:


> if im completely honest I think I love clive


 
Ha ha!. I think everyone loves him whether they admit it or not!


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## Aron_Dip (21 Oct 2013)

I love the forum that much I'm going to donate a tenner ...... When I get home...<3 I wish some day I have an ounce of saids knolage and two will be able to share my Owen experience and know how....... But until then I'll keep reading and learning.

Peace out!

Sent from my HTC Desire C using Tapatalk


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## LondonDragon (21 Oct 2013)

Why do I need a chemistry degree to understand EI? Isn't the idea of EI just to overdose the tank so that your plants don't lack any nutrients? Do I really need to understand each single one and how it affects every single ml of water in the tank? Nope, this is a hobby and I just want beautiful plants the easiest way possible, and so do most other people, so if you follow the simple advice there is nothing wrong with that.

If you have the time and curious then for all means expand your knowledge and dig into it, but for the average user that is just overkill (myself included). Do other methods work? Yes off course, does that means we should be following them?  Yes and No, people have their options, like a famous person says take the blue or the red pill? Your choice!!

Happy planting


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## Alastair (21 Oct 2013)

LondonDragon said:


> Why do I need a chemistry degree to understand EI? Isn't the idea of EI just to overdose the tank so that your plants don't lack any nutrients? Do I really need to understand each single one and how it affects every single ml of water in the tank? Nope, this is a hobby and I just want beautiful plants the easiest way possible, and so do most other people, so if you follow the simple advice there is nothing wrong with that.
> 
> If you have the time and curious then for all means expand your knowledge and dig into it, but for the average user that is just overkill (myself included). Do other methods work? Yes off course, does that means we should be following them?  Yes and No, people have their options, like a famous person says take the blue or the red pill? Your choice!!
> 
> Happy planting



Well said paulo


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## Reuben (21 Oct 2013)

Is this the weirdest thread in the history of UKAPS then?


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## foxfish (21 Oct 2013)

Reuben said:


> Is this the weirdest thread in the history of UKAPS then?


 
Something to do with the thread title & the possible implications  has caused a lot of hits & possibly a lot of disappointment!
How many of us would be prepared to say what we hoped the thread title would be suggesting?


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## Reuben (21 Oct 2013)

foxfish said:


> How many of us would be prepared to say what we hoped the thread title would be suggesting?


 
Well 'Protip' made me hopeful of some 'titbit' of knowledge, but the 'If you're not Plantbrain stop posting like you are' sounded a bit scary, like someone might be in trouble?

Reading through the five pages didn't really enlighten me, and it wasn't the most useful 'Protip' I've been given.


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## Ian Holdich (21 Oct 2013)

The best protip I have is....don't eat yellow snow.


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## tim (21 Oct 2013)

Ian Holdich said:


> The best protip I have is....don't eat yellow snow.


What  you don't like lemon ice cones


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## Pinkmummy79 (22 Oct 2013)

oldbloke said:


> I'm not sure I have got anything better to do with my time, and although I've made almost 3,000 posts on UKAPS, I've basically said the same thing about 3,000 times.
> It's good stuff though


Lol you realise you've just copied and pasted oops so have I
Damn good, why is it as soon as I get five mins to myself I grab my phone and open up UKAPS? I'm always doing it, is that doctor about

Sent from my LT30p using Tapatalk


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## GreenNeedle (22 Oct 2013)

LondonDragon said:


> Why do I need a chemistry degree to understand EI? Isn't the idea of EI just to overdose the tank so that your plants don't lack any nutrients? Do I really need to understand each single one and how it affects every single ml of water in the tank? Nope, this is a hobby and I just want beautiful plants the easiest way possible, and so do most other people, so if you follow the simple advice there is nothing wrong with that.


 
That's not what Wet was saying. He was questioning why when a person actually wants to know more about uptake, monitoring nutrients, in depth chemistry that the response they effectively get (although I exaggerate a little) is _'Use EI, you don't need to know what you're asking'._

I can see the point but then I think many of us are long past giving out advice for the millionth time on certain parts of the hobby and tend to just ignore threads where the subject matter is repetitive. I did anyway several years ago.


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## LondonDragon (22 Oct 2013)

SuperColey1 said:


> That's not what Wet was saying. He was questioning why when a person actually wants to know more about uptake, monitoring nutrients, in depth chemistry that the response they effectively get (although I exaggerate a little) is 'Use EI, you don't need to know what you're asking'.


All you need to do is say use EI, there is a large tutorial about EI on the forum already, so people just need to read it, read it over again, digest it, read it once more and then if still in doubt ask constructive questions about it. Its about the right balance between lights, ferts, flow and more importantly CO2, and to be honest getting the ferts right is the easiest of them all!

I know where wet is coming from, but he has to think like some members that have been here since day one answering the same questions over and over again, its not that they are not being helpful, its people don't bother reading what is already there or use the search function, its always easy just to ask another question. So when you answer the same thing for the millionth time you tend to be a little vague if the forum is already inundated with those answers!

If people want more detail then all they have to do is follow up with another question, some people know the basics and try to help, we should encourage other people trying to help even though their knowledge is limited, isn't that what the community is all about??


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## squid102 (22 Oct 2013)

When I was more of a beginner I got very stressed over all the maths, chemistry and ppm. I read so many threads about them that I strongly believed it was something I needed to know and understand fully otherwise I might poison my fish. The calculators didn't help and just confused me more. I really wish I had posted about the maths then and someone had told me that I didn't need to worry it. 

The way I see a forum and life in general, there are 2 basic principles:

1. EVERYONE is entitled to an opinion.

2. Just because someone give you advice, doesn't mean you had to accept it.

Principle number 1 brings balance to a forum. One person says "you don't need to worry about this". Someone else says "yes you do, this is how you calculate your ppm"

Principle number 2 brings choice. Op thinks "fantastic! I don't need to worry!" Or they think "fantastic! So that's how I calculate ppm!" 

Balance. 
Choice.


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## Yo-han (22 Oct 2013)

LondonDragon said:


> _SuperColey1 said: ↑ That's not what Wet was saying. He was questioning why when a person actually wants to know more about uptake, monitoring nutrients, in depth chemistry that the response they effectively get (although I exaggerate a little) is 'Use EI, you don't need to know what you're asking'. _
> 
> LondonDragon: All you need to do is say use EI, there is a large tutorial about EI on the forum already, so people just need to read it, read it over again, digest it, read it once more and then if still in doubt ask constructive questions about it. Its about the right balance between lights, ferts, flow and more importantly CO2, and to be honest getting the ferts right is the easiest of them all!


 
This is a great example from what Wet is saying (no offense LondonDragon). But if someone asks about Redfield Ratio for example en that is the answer than I didn't had my question answered. Do I get a beter tank? Probably because EI works. But perhaps it doesn't sound helpful to some. Maybe it should be explained a little more, like: don't use Redfield Ratio, it is outdated because blablabla... EI works much better because blablabla, read the tutorial.

I feel were you're coming from Paolo, when I see questions which would be the first hit at google when you ask them, I simple scroll on. When they are more tank specific, it gets more interesting. I really admire the people (like Tom, having probably 20.000 posts about CO2 on different forums) having the patience to answer those easy questions. Wet was tired of it, but perhaps it could have been explained better!


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## clonitza (22 Oct 2013)

Yo-han said:


> ...Maybe it should be explained a little more, like: don't use Redfield Ratio, it is outdated because blablabla...


 
--->  Redfield ratio and aquarist mistakes Searching is easier than waiting for a personalized answer


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## pepedopolous (22 Oct 2013)

Why isn't there a UKAPS wiki?

Surely this would save some people answering the same questions again and again.
Editing rights could be limited to certain (and willing) experienced members.
Would be a fantastic resource for everyone, all in one place.


P


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## Samuran (22 Oct 2013)

Still think this forum is miles better than most for the "just use the search function" automatic reply found on a lot of others...


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## GreenNeedle (22 Oct 2013)

pepedopolous said:


> Why isn't there a UKAPS wiki?
> 
> Surely this would save some people answering the same questions again and again.
> Editing rights could be limited to certain (and willing) experienced members.
> ...


 
Because those that ask without searching will still ask without searching   It's hard to bear for some but there are many these days who's lifes are 'so busy with other important stuff' that they do not have time to search, just the time to post and then shoot off to 'more important things'.

The other proportion of us are a rare breed these days that if we want to know something we search and search.  However you could also say that is because we are too impatient to wait for replies.  Maybe the same thing in s different way to the 'too busy to search' peeps?

At least there aren't as many 'sand vs gravel' posts on this forum


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## Samuran (22 Oct 2013)

SuperColey1 said:


> At least there aren't as many 'sand vs gravel' posts on this forum


 
I've never known which is best... heh


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## Aron_Dip (22 Oct 2013)

pepedopolous said:


> Why isn't there a UKAPS wiki?
> 
> Surely this would save some people answering the same questions again and again.
> Editing rights could be limited to certain (and willing) experienced members.
> ...


Yes it probably would answer a lot of questions and at the same time stop a lot of people asking them too witch would dramatically cut the amount of new topics and posts there for making UKAPS a less active place.

UKAPS already is the best place for resource already ... IMO 

Sent from my HTC Desire C using Tapatalk


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## Alastair (22 Oct 2013)

Why would we want ukaps to be a 'less active' place ha ha


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## clonitza (22 Oct 2013)

The problem with the Redfield ratio theory | UK Aquatic Plant Society btw there's one on UKAPS about RR.
INMHO nobody has to be afraid to input his opinion ...


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## oldbloke (22 Oct 2013)

Doing searches on forums does not always yield results, especially when you need to search for a term, such as "why are my fish transvestites?" for example.
This is where we rely on patient, more knowledgable people to help us mortals out.
And we do appreciate it.


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## ghostsword (22 Oct 2013)

You want to know more about EI, go read the article that was posted a few years ago, and it is still there, about it. That was what I did.

I read it over and over again (still refer to it sometimes) till I grasped the content.

You do not want to struggle with the concepts? Just dose EI and that is it, simple.


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## Michael W (22 Oct 2013)

I just don't get why people get so crazy about in depth studies of certain concepts. I feel people should sometimes just follow the advice if the person/s have considerable knowledge on the topic even though their comment is basic as long as he provides enough to show/explain that it works. Further knowledge could be gained after through follow up questions as commented by LD or in fact one's own research since the basic foundations or theories were provided, something which you may not have had prior to asking the question. Once you have something to base the research on you're likely to be able to gain further knowledge. I feel that there are never bad teachers just bad students. If a teacher does not provide enough information in class why not follow up with questions? If they can't for some reason answer them why not conduct your own research using what you have been provided as a starting point? Use your own initiative.


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## foxfish (23 Oct 2013)

Well some people love figures & make that their hobby, some folk like to be condescending & make that their hobby etc..
There are many facades to our planted tank hobby & it is enjoyed to many degrees.


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