# substrate for planted tanks



## john10001 (1 Mar 2019)

Evening. Just three quick separate questions.

1) Can anyone advise on a good substrate for a small 25L Thailand style betta planted tank?

2) For a bigger tank I would like to have with sand, does anyone know if there is a good substrate that is suitable for going underneath with sand on top that won't rise to the top?

3) Is there any substrate for plants that would be suitable to use in a BiOrb on top of their ceramic biological media? Something that won't scratch acrylic, will let plants take root, won't clog up the filter and biological media. Don't hate me  Tall order I know.


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## Edvet (1 Mar 2019)

People tend to forget, but why not sand only? And fertilize the watercolumn.


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## john10001 (1 Mar 2019)

Edvet said:


> People tend to forget, but why not sand only? And fertilize the watercolumn.



That is an option I guess though I was thinking of something underneath for the big tank because sand only might just be good for the water column plants but not so much for the rooting ones that feed mostly through the substrate?


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## alto (1 Mar 2019)

Plants _can_ grow in any light, any substrate 

BUT

you won’t find many ADA/Amano/Filipe Oliveira etc style aquascapes with sand only substrates 

Tropica Inspiration page does show many layouts with Tropica Growth Substrate layered beneath a fine gravel (Räda sand I believe) - take note of the gravel/sand texture which allows for “aeration” of the substrate 
This is a significant feature of the Tropica and ADA Soils (only ones I’ve used - there are several other brands) - the soil particles pack quite loosely ... especially if compared with reef sands (& several other sands) 

If you’re diligent about water column fertilizing, good growth will happen, note that plants will grow differently in aquarium soil “regular” vs “powder”, so also expect the sand/gravel to be a factor


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## sciencefiction (1 Mar 2019)

Edvet said:


> People tend to forget, but why not sand only? And fertilize the watercolumn.





john10001 said:


> That is an option I guess though I was thinking of something underneath for the big tank because sand only might just be good for the water column plants but not so much for the rooting ones that feed mostly through the substrate?



I am a total convert to sand only tanks. I noticed that in a year, or 2 max, the sand itself becomes rich enough to act like soil and plant roots love it too. For example I keep crypts, which some say are heavy root feeders, but they flourish in "old" sand.  A soil tank can become messy and the longer it goes, the worse it gets. Where with sand, the longer it goes, the better it gets. Simple as that. If your one of those people that re-do their tanks every so often, any substrate can be tried. Long term sand is best.
Plus fish absolutely prefer sand to anything else. If you decide to siphon the sand down to the very bottom, you can too, which is impossible in a soil tank. Although with heavy root feeders I'd only hover over the sand and not disturb it. 



alto said:


> you won’t find many ADA/Amano/Filipe Oliveira etc style aquascapes with sand only substrates



I suspect that could be because they're after fast results and the tanks they setup don't last in the same state/aquascape for long to allow the substrate to become "rich", hence they start the tank off with already enriched substrate.


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## alto (1 Mar 2019)

Let’s do the challenge then 

I’ve ~ 4week Elatine hydropiper in Tropica AS Powder 
Who’s up for the doing the sand substrate version?


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## sciencefiction (1 Mar 2019)

alto said:


> Let’s do the challenge then
> 
> I’ve ~ 4week Elatine hydropiper in Tropica AS Powder
> Who’s up for the doing the sand substrate version?



I do but you've got to give me a year to reach the same results  However, we evaluate again after that in some more years


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## alto (1 Mar 2019)

OK
March 2020 then

Though you’re right, by then I’ll likely have rescaped my 60P 

Don’t forget that Takashi Amano started his planted tank journey with various sand and gravel substrates

If you check out Adam Paszczela Idea Studio Poland (George Farmer video - though now I’m thinking this may’ve been in the fuzzy live discussion that was never posted on his YouTube channel) the big aquarium is ~4 years old


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## Fred13 (1 Mar 2019)

alto said:


> Plants _can_ grow in any light, any substrate
> 
> BUT
> 
> ...


Could you please explain the difference between growing plants in powder or growing plants in regular soil ?
I will put 1cm of powder on my regular soil even I am not planning to plant carpeting plants at this setup so I really wanna know what the difference could be for a stem plant or a cryptocorine


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## sciencefiction (1 Mar 2019)

alto said:


> OK
> March 2020 then
> 
> Though you’re right, by then I’ll likely have rescaped my 60P
> ...



I still think he changed due to the need of fast results. That's what customers want.  Generally, the ADA soil is clay loaded with nutrients and baked from what I remember reading some time ago, unless they've changed recently.  It is not actual soil, as in the type of soil out of the garden, which is actually superior to both clay and sand. But it is the long term benefits of sand I like...When years start turning, the majority of the soil will be out of the tank anyway, as it tends to break down eventually to tiny particles which the filter media loves attracting...


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## alto (1 Mar 2019)

Green Aqua and Jurijs mit JS mention this in their videos/discussion 

My version (of what I heard ) - some plants prefer the finer texture for rooting, some plants will grow more densely over time 

I’ve heard Filipe Oliveira say much the same, though I don’t think he added any ADA Powder in his recent scape at the Green Aqua Gallery 

I suspect this applies more to “sensitive” or “advanced” plants (which designation Tropica applies to plants that seem to have fuzzy preferences, ie all expected growth conditions are met, but thrive in Scape A, while decidedly don’t thrive in Scape B) 

I doubt this would have much impact on stem plants ... OTOH when I added Tropica Nutrition Capsules to the base layer (as shown in Jurijs mit JS videos) I did note significant root differences in the various plants


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## alto (1 Mar 2019)

sciencefiction said:


> When years start turning, the majority of the soil will be out of the tank anyway, as it tends to break down eventually to tiny particles which the filter media loves attracting...


How many years?
I’ve 3 yr old Tropica Soil that’s much similar texture etc to new 



sciencefiction said:


> I still think he changed due to the need of fast results. That's what customers want
> .


I’ll disagree on this point, this was long before ADA or any other commercial enterprise, he wanted “better” growth character and more plant types to thrive etc


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## alto (1 Mar 2019)

As for “garden soil” - you’ve not seen mine 

Sorry for the odd post architecture, but I “lose” all ability to continue within the text box for some reason


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## sciencefiction (1 Mar 2019)

alto said:


> How many years?
> I’ve 3 yr old Tropica Soil that’s much similar texture etc to new



Well, its not soil, its clay. They bake it well is my guess 

I am not denying the benefits of ADA soil and if in the ball form, it probably doesn't break down but It comes with its price. Sand has lower CEC ability than clay or soil but it is better texture for plant roots in comparison to clay balls. Powdered ADA soil is going to run out through the hose eventually. And then to mention again that fish will like sand the most if they are given a choice.


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## Edvet (2 Mar 2019)

I have always done my tanks with sand, riversand preferably because it has different sizes, from  2-3mm to small pebbles 6-7 mm, and is rounded of.
I have had the same sand in my large tank for about 20 years now. I''ve had swords in there with rootpackets of about 1 square meter. I feed through the column with a few clay balls in rare occasions ( once every few years).
The sand is 5-10 cm deep. 
The only thing wich would improve growth is if i would add CO2. When i did that i had a realy good looking tank. No soils needed.


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## Zeus. (3 Mar 2019)

Think when I do my next tank I would be tempted to just go for sand too.

Having said that did one recently for daughter in her fluval edge 60l low tech. Tank doesnt have a very good light so used a large piece of DW and super glued most plants on that and just used riversand with a few root tabs here and there, weekly fert dosing


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## akwarium (4 Mar 2019)

Inert sand or gravel does nothing for your plants other then holding them in place. Plants can only survive and grow in there as long as you ad enough ferts.
Plants with large roots are doing fine in there because they can store nutrients in there roots, so if you don't dose (enough) for some time they can cope with that. Stem plants will suffer much sooner. 

The main advantage of substrate is mainly the ability to store nutrients from the water column and make them long term available for your plants, and a little neglect now and then does not make your plants suffer any shortages. 

A substrate layer does not have to be expensive or complicated, a very thin layer of clay like bentonite or laterite can already make a difference.


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## Zeus. (4 Mar 2019)

akwarium said:


> Inert sand or gravel does nothing for your plants other then holding them in place. Plants can only survive and grow in there as long as you ad enough ferts.
> Plants with large roots are doing fine in there because they can store nutrients in there roots, so if you don't dose (enough) for some time they can cope with that. Stem plants will suffer much sooner.
> 
> The main advantage of substrate is mainly the ability to store nutrients from the water column and make them long term available for your plants, and a little neglect now and then does not make your plants suffer any shortages.



Yes, But 


Edvet said:


> have had the same sand in my large tank for about 20 years now



How many tanks with AS can last that long? 

But like you say



akwarium said:


> A substrate layer does not have to be expensive or complicated, a very thin layer of clay like bentonite or laterite can already make a difference.


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## sciencefiction (4 Mar 2019)

akwarium said:


> Inert sand or gravel does nothing for your plants other then holding them in place



Not quite true. Once it matures, it does exactly what soil would do. It just takes longer time. Plus, as Zeus mentioned, it  is much longer lasting. Remember, you can clean sand if you want to, very easily with the siphon. Try cleaning up a 10 year old soil.....If one is after re-scaping and fast results, soil is the better option.


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## akwarium (4 Mar 2019)

Zeus. said:


> Yes, But
> 
> 
> How many tanks with AS can last that long?
> ...



Aqua Soil and other baked soils, are more or less 4 things in 1:
1. a substrate with high cation exchange capacity, (so it can store nutrients)
2. a fertilizer, it  already contains lots of nutrients 
3. a top layer, unlike many other substrates it should not be covered with a layer of inert sand/gravel.
4. a water conditioner, it buffers/regulates KH and pH.

The last 3 are limiting the lifespan of Aqua Soil, purely seen a substrate it can last many years more. But without the positive "side effects" many aquascapers appreciate.

it is not necessary, you can have beautiful plants in nothing more then clean sand, but a substrate will make your life more easy, and a Aqua Soil even more so.


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## dw1305 (4 Mar 2019)

Hi all,
I'm a sand user. I just mix a small amount of clay and semi-decomposed leaf litter (about 10% by volume) in initially, so ~90% sand. 





akwarium said:


> and other baked soils


I have one tank with moler clay cat litter and the granules have remained intact for ~10 years.

After  I set the tanks up I don't vacuum the sand, I pretty much just let it get on with it. I very rarely break the tanks down, so over time the substrate will be more soil like.

I have <"_Asellus_ and MTS"> in the tanks and <"I don't  tend to get much build up of mulm">.

cheers Darrel


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## Tim Harrison (4 Mar 2019)

I suppose everyone has their own experience and preferences and there are many roads to success.

Sand has pretty much zero CEC, but I've used it a couple of times and got pretty good growth with just water column dosing. Strangely enough though my stems didn't do very well. I guess over time sand will become infused with fish mulm and rotting plant material and will form a soil of sorts, but if I use sand it's usually for cometic reasons first, so any DOM in sand is not always desirable. Either way, if it eventually turns in to a substrate with similar properties to soil, why not use soil from the outset; no need to wait, and probably less mess.

I've also grown plants in AS powder and AS and haven't really noticed any difference in growth. The only advantages I can think of is that it's perhaps a little easier to plant small carpet plants with little or no roots in powder, and it provides a better sense of scale in nanos. But I tend to part bury my plants in the substrate anyway so they don't come loose. They soon grow new leaves and start to spread either way.

Like I've mentioned before, I prefer soil substrates, either Gucci or regular dirt. Plants can uptake nutrients through roots and leaves etc so it just makes good horticultural sense to feed both sites. There are other benefits as well...buffering against mistakes like missed fertz doses, and deficiencies, and perhaps greater microbial activity which may infer greater stability, and quicker.

I also like the pH and KH buffering capacity of AS as well since I've always lived in hard water high pH areas. Over all I think soil allows for more wriggle room, which is always helpful especially when you're just starting out.

Plain old sand capped dirt works just as well as AS and doesn't need to be messy either if a soil retainer is used. However, Gucci substrate is very convenient and easy to use, especially if you're a professional conducting a workshop. But don't forget professional aquascapers are also selling product, so of course they are going to use whichever Gucci product the sponsor or shop require them to.

But back to the original questions...


john10001 said:


> 1) Can anyone advise on a good substrate for a small 25L Thailand style betta planted tank?


Personally, I'd use ADA AS or Tropica AS. Normal or powder will work well, but if you want to maintain a sense of scale use powder; smaller grain size.


john10001 said:


> 2) For a bigger tank I would like to have with sand, does anyone know if there is a good substrate that is suitable for going underneath with sand on top that won't rise to the top?


Yes a 1:1 mix of aquatic compost and peat, or Tropica Plant Growth Substrate. Compost/peat is cheaper and pretty much the same thing.


john10001 said:


> 3) Is there any substrate for plants that would be suitable to use in a BiOrb on top of their ceramic biological media? Something that won't scratch acrylic, will let plants take root, won't clog up the filter and biological media. Don't hate me  Tall order I know.


Not that I'm aware of, it's likely to clog up the filter. I guess you could perhaps use small pots?

Check out Dennis Wong's video on substrates...


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## dw1305 (4 Mar 2019)

Hi all,





Tim Harrison said:


> Like I've mentioned before, I prefer soil substrates, either Gucci or regular dirt. Plants can uptake nutrients through roots and leaves etc so it just makes good horticultural sense to feed both sites. There are other benefits as well...buffering against mistakes like missed fertz doses, and deficiencies, and perhaps greater microbial activity which may infer greater stability, and quicker.


I think there are advantages to soil, and those are some of them.

Personally I haven't investigated soil partially because:

I live in an area where everything is limy, and I've always used rain-water and kept (and tried to breed) soft-water fish. I don't mind going 10 miles (to the nearest non-calcareous soil) to pick up a small amount of soil, but I wouldn't want to dig up any more.
I'm aiming for pretty slow growth, so I want fairly low nutrients.
I'm going to leave the tanks set-up for a long time period.
If I was starting keeping fish now I'd definitely go down the soil, capped with sand, route and use soil from the garden as the base. @Tim Harrison has tanks that are much <"lusher and  more aesthetically pleasing"> than any I've ever managed.

cheers Darrel


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## Zeus. (4 Mar 2019)

akwarium said:


> but a substrate will make your life more easy, and a Aqua Soil even more so



Cant agree more esp ADA AS, which is why I got it for my first planted tank


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## sciencefiction (4 Mar 2019)

I am well aware of the benefits of soil personally. I did a lot of research some years back, and having tried that route, I prefer sand, especially in terms of fish keeping as well. Sand tanks are healthier tanks fish wise.  I still do have 2 soil tanks and they're not as plant prolific as my old 7 year old sand tank to be honest. The benefits of soil are temporary, in the first year or two, then its the water column back again. Plants develop some massive roots systems in sand only tanks. The same exact crypt species I always keep is mental in my sand tank.I planted it in my soil set up a few years ago as well and its stayed as one mother crypt for several years! It is a tank with soil capped with sand. Go figure. It's the second soil tank I tried that crypt in and it didn't take off.  

I'd have to agree though, if I am after aesthetic professional setups, I'd go the commercial soil route. But I'd probably not keep fish.


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## Tim Harrison (4 Mar 2019)

Crikey SF, those statements are a bit sweeping...none echo my experience, quite the opposite really. Done right soil tanks can be very healthy, fish or otherwise. Also, I've never found the benefits of soil to be temporary. For instance, soil will absorb nutrients from the water column just like AS if the sand cap isn't too fine grained. And Crypts usually go absolutely berserk in soil, throwing out huge root systems and runners all over the place.

Four months growth, 1:1 moss peat and aquatic compost capped with sand...


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## sciencefiction (4 Mar 2019)

Lovely tanks as usual Troi 

I have two soil tanks still running, both setup around 2013 and a sand tank setup 2012. I am going based on that experience. 
The two soil tanks are plant poor now. One has only anubias, doing rather well I must admit but the stem plants are no more. The other one is also now mostly anubias, hydrophila, the mother crypt I mentioned above and the plants that's doing best is the peace lily 
The soil tanks did well in the first couple of years. They're all low tech, non-dosed tanks so we're not even talking water column dosing much. I am sure I could have maintained them better of course.


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