# Puffers with white spot.



## Konsa (19 Sep 2018)

Hi all.
Tank is the 72l one from that thread:
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/my-current-tanks-pic-heavy.50042/
Recently got myself 3 more SAP puffers to add to my original 2 I had.Was not able to quarantine them and on day 15 noticed white spot on all 3 new ones.3 days later started treatment with Esha Exit Esha claims it is effective in stage one (on fish) and stage 3 (free swimming) of ich life cycle.While most meds are only effective in stage 3.
Treatment went :
1st day WC 70%,Filter clean,purigen out, .Temp 24 °C ,Full dose
2nd day half dose,temp 26.4°C
3rd day half dose temp 26.8°C
4th day half dose temp 28.5°C
5th day half dose temp28.5°C
ATM all other fish in tank ( Minnows,Ottos, Corys)clear from white spot since day one.Puffers covered in it atm but eating strong and very active as are rest of the fish and amanos.
Esha says 3 day course of treatment with improvement in 1-2 days.Since I started treating they are covering more and more every day.
Tomorrow  60%WC and cant decide yet
What to do.
Heat treatment with salt seems to be best option for puffer treatment as not very meds tolerant.
Cant use salt as Corys wont like it.Cant raise temp more as minows will  not like it.
Should I change the medication with sth else after filtering the current meds off with carbon for 24h.Which one will U recommend having in mind there are Amanos in tank and the puffers are sensitive.
Any thoughts and advice welcome.
Regards Konsa


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## Konsa (20 Sep 2018)

Hi 
Today it seems that they start clearing slightly when checked this morning.
Still can't decide to carry on with current treatment or swap to sth else.
Spent ages on reading www.thepufferforum.com about puffers treatment along planetcatfish about should corys be treated with salt for short period of time. There seems a lot positive feedback on benefits of salt treatment  of ill fish.
Any thoughts anyone ?
Regards Konsa


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (22 Sep 2018)

Personally I'm no expert but I would stick with the current treatment.


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## alto (22 Sep 2018)

Well salt is cheap - that’s one benefit 

Some fish species do seem to respond very well to salt treatments, eg, domestic angelfish (do NOT treat wild altums in the same manner) BUT “efficacy” of salt where it actually impacts bacteria, parasites etc (proven microscopically) is at considerably higher dosage than most fish species will (happily) tolerate 

I’d continue with a proven external parasite treatment (what’s available? Seachem metronidazole can be effective against “ich” which has shown resistance to more commonly used meds)

BUT

I’d also increase water change frequency - only in the world of “*let’s not bother people with changing water*” is there any rationale for not including frequent water changes in a medicated treatment protocol ... most fish research from which hobby treatments are (loosely) taken ALWAYS include daily water changes of minimum 25%, followed by adjusted medication levels depending on stability of components under aquarium conditions


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## alto (22 Sep 2018)

Konsa said:


> Esha Exit Esha claims it is effective in stage one (on fish) and stage 3 (free swimming) of ich life cycle



What are the active ingredients?

I’d like to see the actual data proving their product is effective against Stage one “ich” 
I have seen reports of medicated food having some efficacy against this parasite on (in really) fish but unless Esha has reformulated their product, the Stage one effect is negligible 

(There has been some impressive work done with ich-specific vaccines and specialized antibody treatments (isolated from infected (& vaccinated) fish) BUT these are prohibitively expensive & will likely never make it outside the research lab ...)


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## alto (22 Sep 2018)

Konsa said:


> ATM all other fish in tank ( Minnows,Ottos, Corys)clear from white spot since day one.Puffers covered in it atm but eating strong and very active as are rest of the fish and amanos.


I’d consider this an indication that the medication is effective at limiting spread & helping the puffers feel much better than they otherwise would 

The notion of a three day treatment for ich is really only valid if parasite is caught in the very early stages and fish have some innate resistance to the parasite (ie it’s prevelant in natural environs so this is not a de novo immune challenge)


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## Konsa (22 Sep 2018)

Hi alto
Your comments are very appreciated.
Will answer your questions and hopefully some useful discussion will form.
First of all Im fairly new to keeping puffers.Had my original 2 just  over an year.
Luckily for me they didn't go trough white spot stage even when got them delivered from eBay.According to the info on the puffer forum it is almost 100% they get it when introduced to new environment due to their nature.They are really scatty fish and that is the reason to stick to my normal WC routine as it seems they go down hill after each WC I did while treating them.The 3 new ones are not relaxed enough and seems to stress them quite a bit when fiddling with the tank.They started flashing a lot more since I  did WC yesterday and it seems the progress I observed is now undone.They still eating strong and very active atm.I am not aware what is the active ingredient in the Esha but its sth that will look into. I need to check  will it be affected by  my declorinator too.I went for that brand after seing good reviews about folks using it on puffers but seems not doing the job for me atm.
I also am quite sceptical about Esha statement about 1st stage efficiency.As I have been keeping various fishes for over 20 years and never heard of such effective medication.
I am rehoming the minnows  to reduce bioload and have the freedom to boost temperature more if needed.
In past I have also had good results adding salt  when treating with meds but in lower dosages compared to what the puffer guys say on theit website (1 level tsp per galon with 84F temp)
Will check the Seachem metronidazole if is available locally as is taking a bit long now to see improvement using Esha.
At the end all my doubts are comming from that I am still learning about SAP puffers and the fact that being wild caught and scale less makes me nervous about treating them as I would have done any other fish of mine including loaches that I had in past and were nightmare to clear from ich too.
 Regards Konsa


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## alto (22 Sep 2018)

Note - consider adding an additional powerhead, having filter return gently splash etc, dim lighting of course to assist medication longevity (& reduce fish stress)


> It is mostly collected from habitats with high oxygen levels
> 
> It does not tend to be found in highly acidic black-waters.



Are you certain that your new fish are not _C. psittacus?_
(in which instance brackish water would definitely help) 

What percentage of water are you changing?

How are you matching tap vs tank water?
- I don’t usually worry about this overmuch EXCEPT when fish are ill 
Most sick fish are already significantly “stressed”, with fish, any stressor depresses the immune system which is why optimum water quality becomes even more important

As your puffers are eating (what are you feeding?), I’d use medicated food to help combat the “ich”
Seachem Metronidazole (pure with no additives) combined with Focus (significantly improves binding of medication to food, and maintains that bond under aquarium conditions) would be my first choice, levamisol medicated food is also helpful (but less palatable & possibly a “stronger” medication than what’s needed ... which can of course, further stress)

You can likely find both of these available as bird medications if you’re unable to source fish versions
Metronidazole is also fairly common in dog & human medications
Look at the non-active ingredients though before using with fish (especially if you’ve shrimp in the tank)

Note that you really do want a fairly large tank to maintain a group of _Colomesus asellus _long term ... (I assume these are juveniles) 



Konsa said:


> (1 level tsp per galon with 84F temp)


This is definitely not going to negatively impact any part of the ich stage lifecycle though it will act as an irritant to most fish species causing them to increase skin secretions - which while somewhat helpful in limiting ich attachment in the early stages of an infection, likely won’t help your presently infested SAPs overmuch (unless they benefit from estuary environs over soft freshwater)

Except for the stress of handling, you may find that salt dips assist -


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## alto (22 Sep 2018)

Bath treatment for sick fish 


Note average weight for “table salt” is given as 5.69g/teaspoon
(except even amount baking utensils, a “teaspoon” is not consistent when tested)


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## alto (22 Sep 2018)

Use of salt in aquaculture


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## alto (22 Sep 2018)

Unfortunately some of the basic aquaculture articles are no longer easily found on the EDIS site so I linked these above

They have many basic background articles of this sort, when you follow some of their treatment articles, it’s assumed that you have already read the “basics” ...


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## alto (22 Sep 2018)

The Manual of Fish Health by Chris Andrews, Neville Carrington, Adrian Exell remains a good investment 
(though my version is ancient these days )


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## Konsa (22 Sep 2018)

Hi
I usually change 70% on weekly basis.I match temperature with difference 0.5-1 °C.A bit more careful  now  so bang on the 28 °C Im keeping atm. TDS fluctuate a bit more(+- 90) due to fert addition and I dont test PH and rest.
The puffers are 100% Colomess asselus  (SAP) and yes they are little babies 2-3 cm.
Already thinking of 4 ft tank for them.
Tank has good ammount of plants and hiding places and 50 % coverage with floaters I have hold back on harvesting to dim light a bit more.I feed mix of Live and frozen Daphnia, Bloodworm, Glass worm, mysis shrimp ,Brine shrimp ,Californian black worms and earth worms. Seems Metronidazole will be difficult to obtain( any dog cat product links wecome) but have Levimisol  (Harka Verm ) as I worm them with it every 4-6 months due to diet.Was just about to do it when they got the spots and holding back as not sure if is good idea mixing medications.
Regards Konsa


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## alto (22 Sep 2018)

At this point, I’d do daily 25-30% water changes instead 

You can still try a 70% weekly water change (next Saturday) & gauge response, if the SAPs seem less reactive to the large water change, this implies that tank conditions have drifted noticeably from tap with your present once weekly 70% change

Quite likely, once settled, they won’t mind your usual maintenance schedule


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## alto (22 Sep 2018)

Use your judgement, as to where to go at this stage

I’d likely add a fresh dose of Esha Exit (not available in my area but based upon forum reports it seems a reasonable external abrasive remedy) as a follow up to the large wc


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## alto (22 Sep 2018)

Planted tanks are always a bit tricky as prolonged medications will generally begin to negatively impact plants, especially faster growing species 
Salt will also impact some plants significantly

If you don’t see much improvement in SAPs, you might consider the daily “new tank” approach to treating ich
Day 1 - fish are placed in clean tank filled with tap water, filter, heater etc (you can add salt or medication or nothing)
Day 2 - fish are transferred to clean tank #2 as above
Day 3 - fish are transferred to newly cleaned tank from Day 1
and so on

Note - you need to be able to quickly net & transfer fish for this method, any prolonged “chase” will seriously impact fish as it’s a daily occurrence ... generally a large net (goldfish sized) works best

Glass tanks are “best” as they provide a smooth, easily cleaned (sterilized) surface


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## Konsa (22 Sep 2018)

Hi 
thanks for the responce.Have few other planted tanks running so plant health is not important as are easily replaced if they die off.
My main priority are the puffers so shrimp can go to my other shrimp only lil tank and corys will have to go if I see any negative responce ( distress) from  treatment from them too.
Will keep posting on here what I am doing and responce I get from the puffers.
It is true that with time they get used to me fiddling in the tank  but it takes few months for that to happen.Biggest sign of stress is when they lay down on bottom and almost burry themselves near a stone or root in back.Eventually they will just swim past my hands .
Regards Konsa


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## Konsa (29 Sep 2018)

Hi 
Little update on my puffs situation.Me being dateless forgot that had some mineral stones for the shrimps behind the hardscape.Boy they were blue when I got them out.Possible negative impact on medication there but not sure.
Anyway things going good for my fish.Two of them are clear and the rest are better.
Bumped the temperature to 29.5°C with one 24 hour burst to 31.
Daily dosing the recommended ammount of Esha Exit but had to use 2000 for few days too with it as one of the puffers went head to head with a rock on WC day and damaged his upper lip.Luckily they do heal quickly when injured.
.WC 25%every other day for 6 days and then back to my normal weekly WC schedule  as they are very scatty when I get in tank and dont want to risk more injury.Crazy as they do follow me arround for food but soon as I lift the lid they go mental. 
The biggest thing was when followed alto advice for medicated food.Had to use Levamisole(Harka- Verm) as Metronidazole is not easy to get hold off arround me.They had medicated food for 3 days.Not very keen on eating it too but it seems managed to give them the  boost they needed to fight off the parasites.
Once again thank you alto for giving me the heads up for the medicated food while treating with esha.
Still not completely cured but they do feel (behave)much better and eat like is no tomorrow .
Regards Konsa


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## Konsa (5 Oct 2018)

Hi all
Puffers are now clear from any cysts since monday.Still dosing the medication with temp 29°C as my plan is to give it 10 days ( roughly 3  parasite lifecycles  at that temperature )before bringing tank to normal running conditions to ensure the parasites are gone for good.
All fish are back to their normal selves.Plants didn't like the temperature increase with some buces and java fern  melt down.Few algae made appearances too but will deal with it on later date.
Regards Konsa


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## alto (5 Oct 2018)

Well done 

Plant melt is likely a combined meds/temperature response

Some fish pic down the line would be awesome


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## Konsa (5 Oct 2018)

Hi alto
Unfortunately there are no pics as I was busy with work and tanks were dark when Im home.Dont have anything to take them with apart my phone.But will put some when have chance after a tidy up of course. Lol
Regards Konsa


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