# Trying to get plants to grow.



## Alan D Ball (22 Nov 2011)

Hi. 
I have just set up a 4ft x 2ft x 2ft tank. 
I have quartz gravel for substrate, bog wood, temp of 28, softish water 6.0 ph, co2 running for 8 hours a day,6 x t5 tubes 4 x white marine 14000 54w and 2 x blue plus 54w from iquatics (great company, very helpful,good prices on the lamps and tubes and a good price for next day delivery), i am running a Aquamanta EFX 600 external filter (maidenhead aquatics own brand). The lighting, first four tubes are on from 1pm til 9 pm and the other two come on from 1.30pm til 10.30pm
I add in daily 8ml of tropica aquacare plant nutrition + liquid, 8 ml weekly of easycarbo and weekly ferropol 100ml.
This has now been setup for about two months now and the plants seem to be withering away. The crypts have gone all fluffy and dyeing, the anubis arent doing to well either, the vallis are struggling as well. the only two plants that have done well and I think it is only because of the lighting is the Japanese Red Tiger lilly plant and aponogeton which are from bulbs.Also the java fern isnt looking good either.
Not sure where im going wrong.
Before this i had the same equipment setup in a 2ft x 2ft x 2ft tank and had the same results.I just cant seem to do planted aquariums. My boy have there own tanks, no equipment, just put the plants in and hey presto they grow  and grow and grow. It would be great to have someone who could point me in the right direction.
Many thanks.
Alan.

Great website. Got it at Aquatics Live show at Olyimpa 19/20th nov 2011.


----------



## Morgan Freeman (22 Nov 2011)

That seems like a lot of light, maybe try dropping it by a few hours a day and using less tubes. High lighting will fuel demand for nutrients and co2, of which you don't seem to have much of, especially with a substrate that contains no nutrients whatsoever.

Have you heard of the Estimative Index?

P.S Welcome! Don't worry, I was a plant killer at first but this forum has transformed me


----------



## Morgan Freeman (22 Nov 2011)

Do you have any pictures of the tank?


----------



## Alan D Ball (22 Nov 2011)

Hi Morgan
 At the moment I dont have any pictures, but will get some to show soon.
Also I havent heard of the Estimative Index. Whats that about.


----------



## Dolly Sprint 16v (22 Nov 2011)

Alan D Ball said:
			
		

> I havent heard of the Estimative Index. Whats that about.



Hi Alan 

Have a read at the attached http://www.ukaps.org/EI.htm

Its not rocket science - its virtually an unlimited quantity of fertz for you plants.

As problems just asked.

Regards
paul.


----------



## clonitza (22 Nov 2011)

Drop the light to 2 tubes and keep it that way for a while or try and invest in a good sunscreen lotion for your plants.


----------



## spyder (22 Nov 2011)

I'm not sure about that filter output but a 4x2x2 is going to need a lot of flow.

Some plants dislike easycarbo and vallis is one of them.

14k lamps and blues, is that not salty gear? I'm no wizard with lights but I think 6500 - 10k is a better range although light is light. But yes others have stated, you have a lot.


----------



## Alastair (22 Nov 2011)

I'd agree with what's just been said In that you definitely need more flow in that tank by either a powerhead or an additional filter. You say you run co2 8 hours a day, at what point do you turn the co2 on and what colour is your drop checker 2 hours into your photo period?
It is a fair bit of light, I run just over 3 watts per gallon on a 5 foot and I need lots of flow, co2 and ferts. I'd definitely look at going down the estimation index route, seems daunting at first but is quite straight forward once you get your head round it. The sponsors on here sell ei salts, and should you need any help with quantities etc then I'm sure any one of us can help, I'll gladly work it out if need be. 

Drop your lighting down to say 2 or 3 of the tubes, then concentrate on getting your flow sorted, along with co2 at a nice level and dose enough ferts. Then when you see your plants growth improving and you have the dosing etc sorted, should you wish to up the light slightly then do so whilst also increasing co2. 

Hope this helps mate and welcome to ukaps.


----------



## Morgan Freeman (23 Nov 2011)

Once you've had a read about EI dosing you can use this calculator to work out how much you need to dose.

http://blog.fluidsensoronline.com/calcu ... ive-index/

I'd highly recommend buying their EI starter pack, it seems expensive at first but buying dry saves you an absolute heap in the long run. I've barely made a dent in mine.

To summarise from what you've told us so far:

Less light.

More ferts.

Possibly more flow.

Some more info on your co2 might be helpful aswell, but I think your biggest problem is way too much light.


----------



## matador1982 (23 Nov 2011)

One thing I manged to glean from the aquatics live show and in particular the talk by George Farmer was to dose daily rather than weekly. 'better to eat little by little than one huge meal' I think was te phrase or something very similar. Perhaps attempt this along with the lighting as other have pointed out.

The greatest piece of advise I ever had was to remember excess of one or more things in your tank will ultimately become harmful to what you strive to achieve. We are striving to create an equilibrium between co2, light, water condition, flow, and nutrition within the substrate.


----------



## Alan D Ball (23 Nov 2011)

Hi All.
Thanks for all your responses.I had a feeling that I was going to open up a can of worms for myself and I think this is it.
Its strange that you all point to the lighting issue and filtration as well. 
When I asked questions at the show Aquatics Live, (Aquajardin) said that the lighting and filtration was ok and no probs they also sold me the easycarbo. I have now taken the two blue tubes out so it now leaves me with just the four white marine 14k tubes. I have taken on board that this is still too much so I will at the weekend take them all out and replace them all for proper tubes to promote the plant growth. The filtration is also an issue for me. I have four discus in the tank with a few corys,golden nugget, royal panache and a green phantom plec so I dont want to over do the filtration as the fish are going to be blown away.The filter will do Max Aquarium volume (up to) 600l and Maximum of 2700 l/hr. Take away 1 mtr under the unit and media I could be looking at worse case 2000 l/hr, still not too bad I think, total of 5 turnovers an hour.  So now im totally not sure what way to go with this.Its like having 10 books open about the same subject all with different answers. 
Co2 is on auto timer on at 12 pm an hour before the lights come on and off at 20.30 and I have now started to use fert daily at 8ml per instructions for daily feeds. The ph drop checker is between light green and yellow.Again I think this is ok.
Ummmmmmmmm do some more reading and see how it goes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for all the advice.Alan


----------



## foxfish (23 Nov 2011)

It is extremely important to get the C02 enriched water flowing over all the plants, as a guide this requires about 10 x the tank volume every hour.
Two full length T5s will work fine (for the time being at least) set them to come on for 7 hours a day & get the gas on at least two hours before the lights & off one hour before lights.
Really concentrate on water flow & sufficient C02.


----------



## Alan D Ball (24 Nov 2011)

Hi Foxfish.
I have now adjusted my co2 timer. I will come on at 12.00pm and off at 23.00 an hour before and two hours after. have still left the lights at the moment ( not enough hours in the day) Have looked at other solutions for more turnover.A friend has sold me a Fluval 4 plus internal to help out. I do have an external co2 diffuser but at the moment my external filter hose tails are 28mm and the connectors to the diffuser is 16/22 mm I may have to purchase another external filter to connect it to. I am worried about the amount of flow for my discus and soon will have some wild Peruvian angels to go in.Not sure how they will cope.
Have taken a look at your links and fantastic pictures and great pond. You must be proud of yourself. Alan


----------



## foxfish (24 Nov 2011)

Hi Alan, just to qualify the gas routine - you should get the C02 to come on two hours before the lights come on & go off one hour before the lights go off   
If you try to look at lighting this way = the less light to get results the better - then that is good.
Some of the most spectacular tanks featured on the forum use surprisingly low amounts of light!
For the last few years I have stuck to - 2 x T5s for 6-7 hours a day but I went through a very bright learning curve at one time LOL ... good luck & keep us informed.


----------



## Alan D Ball (24 Nov 2011)

Right thats done. Co2 on at 12.00pm and off at 20.30, lights on at 14.00 and off at 21.00. I will see how it goes for a while and go from there.
Thanks again for the advise. 
I have also looked at the Estimative Index link but will take one step at a time.Just keep plodding on with the ferts that I have for now.
Alan


----------



## morefirejules08 (26 Nov 2011)

If you are worried about flow disturbing your fish then fitting spray bars to the filter out lets will help as it will distribute the flow over a wider area! It will also help distribute the CO2 better!


----------



## spyder (26 Nov 2011)

Does the Fluval use 16/22m hose? You could set that filter up as the co2 reactor. You may find you need to replace the ribbed fluval hose with a standard hose and use a couple of jubilee clips in place.


----------



## Alan D Ball (26 Nov 2011)

Hi all. The fluval is an internal filter, so it doesnt have any tubing


----------



## CeeJay (30 Nov 2011)

Hi all


			
				matador1982 said:
			
		

> The greatest piece of advise I ever had was to remember excess of one or more things in your tank will ultimately become harmful to what you strive to achieve. We are striving to create an equilibrium between co2, light, water condition, flow, and nutrition within the substrate.


Not sure I agree with that statement   
The only excesses you need to worry yourself about are Light and CO2. Too much light and you have no margin for error and need a super strict maintenance regime. Too much CO2, you gas your fish.
Excess of everything else mentioned does not cause any problems in a planted tank, unless you keep ultra sensitive species.


----------



## Morgan Freeman (30 Nov 2011)

CeeJay said:
			
		

> Hi all
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'd agree with this. If excess nutrients were a big problem then EI wouldn't work.


----------



## trumpton_excursions (30 Nov 2011)

Isnt it true that the big water change every week helps to reset the balance when using EI? Having not used it myself im not 100% sure, so if someone could enlighten me?


----------



## foxfish (30 Nov 2011)

Well there are differing opinions preached by several key players on this forum - some say the water change is about removing impurities produced by the plants & others believe is to re set the parameters! (or something like that)
Both sets of reasoning seem valid if you read the individuals opinions  :?


----------



## trumpton_excursions (30 Nov 2011)

foxfish said:
			
		

> Well there are differing opinions preached by several key players on this forum - some say the water change is about removing impurities produced by the plants & others believe is to re set the parameters! (or something like that)
> Both sets of reasoning seem valid if you read the individuals opinions  :?



Ah mr foxfish, good day sir, thanks for that, do you have an opinion on the opinions at all?


----------



## CeeJay (30 Nov 2011)

Hi all



			
				trumpton_excursions said:
			
		

> do you have an opinion on the opinions at all?


 Made me smile   

I believe that first and foremost it's all about keeping the tank clean and removing all the junk that the plants produce in a high energy tank. Which is why it pays to swish your hand through the plants on water change day to loosen it all.
The 'resetting' of nutrient levels is just a consequence of the water change.


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke (30 Nov 2011)

What makes you wonder if either opinion is either right or wrong, is there some problem your worried about? As fox says though generally speaking both points are valid. If a water change was not carried out fish and plant waste would just build up.


----------



## trumpton_excursions (1 Dec 2011)

It wasnt about either being right or wrong really, with opinions i suppose they couldnt be, it was more that foxfish gave me the information and then i was interested if he had his own feelings on it, more for the sake of discussion than anything else, but i probably shouldnt hijack this thread anymore hehe


----------



## foxfish (1 Dec 2011)

Hi TE,  my opinion is - I have been doing the recommended 50% water changes for 20+  years so it a way of life now   

As for the logic ... I dont know if re setting the tank due to EI, is a very good description because EI has only been popular for a few years!
I did use regular fertilisers 20 odd years back but, the 50 % water change back then, was recommended to avoid algae issues not to re set the tank - at least that was the termanology - perhaps nobody new exactly why the big water change worked just that it did? 
Whatever the reason I just cant sleep at night unless I have done at least one 50% water change a week


----------



## Morgan Freeman (1 Dec 2011)

Same. I do two now


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke (2 Dec 2011)

It's probably best to forget about the water change and what that does with your fert regime. I just look at it from the point of view of your fish are in a closed environment where all it's needs are provided by the keeper instead of nature doing it's job(although nature does play a part) The waste from the fish and plants same as in humans just builds up, doing a water change is like opening a window to let fresh air in and having a clean up. How this affects your dosing isn't that important.

The BIG contentious issue is whether or not adding this amount of Nitrate in particular can harm fish I suppose. I have seen studies showing that fish show no signs of ill health and will quite happily breed with very high levels of nitrate in the water with the exception of some marines and coral with a bit of a grey area around sensitive freshwater fry. A lot of the nervousness around nitrate comes from keeping tanks without plants, old fishkeeping books that treat it like the devils own and the myriad of nitrate removing resins on offer. Generally speaking though in a planted set up with anything other than very low lighting the addition of nitrate will almost be a necessity. With reasonable lighting and healthy plant growth it's rare for the fish waste to be enough.

Some low lit and substrate additive tanks will get by though I hear but are a fine balanced thing. I also don't really go with the 50% change weekly, I will do one when time allows it but I don't lose sleep over it anymore    I used to do that religiously but now I generally change a certain amount a month however I can whether that be a few small ones or a couple of big ones usually dictated by whether my missus is going out. If I mess too much with my tank this tends too annoy her.


----------



## Viv (2 Dec 2011)

Sorry if this is a dumb question but why use easycarbo if you've got CO2 running? I've not heard of anyone having both at the same time but my experience is limited! Is there any benefit to it?
Viv


----------



## foxfish (2 Dec 2011)

Depends if you like living on the edge   
Easycarbo can be used as an algaecide, it can be double dosed into the tank or injected neat onto problem areas!
To be honest you dont hear so much about this type of use for the product as you might of a year or so ago.
I think we tend to address the underlying problem more nowadays?


----------



## Viv (2 Dec 2011)

Thanks for the claryification foxfish   

Viv


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke (3 Dec 2011)

Another reason people inject co2 and dose EC is that too high a co2 level is toxic to fish and so is EC, dosing together is an effective way of having a high amount of carbon in the tank without having to go to dangerous levels of either. CO2 is also a bit erratic levels can change in certain areas depending on things like your plants needing trimmed and is hard to keep in the water, from the second you dose it its trying to get out of your tank and into the atmosphere, EC on the other hand will stay in there until it degrades usually about 24 hours.


----------



## Viv (4 Dec 2011)

I see. Do you use the same dose or less because of the CO2? I'm interested because I'll soon be changing over to pressurised CO2. Currently dosing a 180l tank with 5ml of aqua carbon every day. Would it be a good idea to keep up with this and maybe add a bit of CO2 rather than changing over completely?

Viv


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke (4 Dec 2011)

Generally speaking its not an either or situation with co2 and EC the plants can't tell the difference between them so for instance a green drop checker while adding the reco dose of EC would be the equivalent of running in yellow but without chancing toxic of either if that makes sense.

Are you looking to stop using EC altogether? If so the best way would be to gradually reduce the dose until you stop.


----------



## Viv (5 Dec 2011)

That was the intention - now I'm not sure! It isn't easycarbo I use. It is actually called aqua carbon (from Aqua Essentials) but I suppose its exactly the same stuff? 

Its taken me over a year to decide to go pressurised and now I'm wondering if I should  :?   Too late now though as I suspect I've got a lot of Christmas pressies coming that will help me set it up!!   I will make the change gradual and maybe keep 1-2 ml of the liquid going so that I can play it safe with the gas. Thanks for helping   

Viv


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke (6 Dec 2011)

Easy Carbo, Flourish XL and aqua carbon are essentially the same product. It's a chemical called gluter something or other and in used for sterilising medical equipment. When in the tank its act as an algaecide and provides a source of carbon the plant can use. 
Here are some pointers which aren't my own because I have never tested them but I have picked up from the general opinions of this board from the people I feel know.

Co2 gas is better than liquid carbon for plants.
Easy carbon and the like is toxic to humans and can cause breathing problems if not handled correctly.
Easy carbon is a lot easier to use but more expensive if you shop around for co2 equipment.
A lot of people will use both liquid and gas to get the best results.

The reason you should reduce the liquid gradually is because BBA algae love a fluctuating co2 level so it's best not to make any sudden changes to the levels. If you are still getting used to gas it maybe an idea to carry on with the liquid as well which will soften any errors you make getting the gas injection right. When you get more confident with gas you could ditch the LC to save money especially if your lighting is not too high.


----------



## Viv (6 Dec 2011)

Thanks for this. I have been stressing over making the change so deciding to take it slow and play it safe is helpful. I can't imagine being confident with the gas atm but like anything else I'm sure that will change with use and familiarity!! 

Viv


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke (6 Dec 2011)

The gas is just about timing, a drop checker with correct 4dkh fluid in will give you a guide and the plants will confirm this. If the co2 is set on a timer people reckon to have it start 2 hours before lights on and two hours before lights off with the goal being having a lime green drop checker right through the period when the lights are on. Injection rates will be specific to your set up its just trial and error. The EC you have left will help with the errors as you can get it into the tank straight away should you have misjudged and not put enough co2 in the tank.

Some people will run it 24/7 in the absence of a timer solenoid for the co2 just at much lower rates but it's thought that it's pointless running co2 when the lights are off so getting a timed solenoid could eventually work out cheaper in the long run. Once you get to the point when your getting target colour in the drop checker regularly you could ease back on the EC until its finished and make sure your getting the co2 enriched water flowing all round the plants.


----------



## Viv (6 Dec 2011)

I'm hoping to get a solenoid. In fact this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/170636382...AX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649#ht_5842wt_905 is what I'm hoping to get. I'm sure once I've got all the bits and pieces I need I will be on here somewhere asking for set up advice!

Viv


----------



## Dan-CR4 (6 Dec 2011)

Viv said:
			
		

> I'm hoping to get a solenoid. In fact this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/170636382...AX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649#ht_5842wt_905 is what I'm hoping to get. I'm sure once I've got all the bits and pieces I need I will be on here somewhere asking for set up advice!
> 
> Viv



I bought an all in one unit like that, and the solenoid on it stopped working after 3 months,the solenoid on the unit you link to is the one that came with mine, and as the solenoid is a sealed unit it cant be repaired. the regulator was still working though as the solenoid got stuck on open, so I had to buy another solenoid to replace it. Just giving you the heads up, and most of the Hong Kong sellers only give a 30 day warranty.


----------



## Viv (6 Dec 2011)

Oh! This one was recommended to me and may already be wrapped up somewhere. If its not is there another you would recommend?

Viv

PS I seem to have hijacked this thread! If I should move it elsewhere please let me know!!


----------



## spyder (6 Dec 2011)

Just the job.

Once you get the bits I'm sure you'll sort it out. As you dosing EC you can go slow on the gas and work it up until you have the right dropchecker colour throughout the photoperiod then ween off the EC. Small changes then let it ride a day or 2 and monitor. I've just had to up mine slightly and was wary but all is fine.

There's something different about watching a misty tank.


----------



## Dan-CR4 (6 Dec 2011)

Viv said:
			
		

> Oh! This one was recommended to me and may already be wrapped up somewhere. If its not is there another you would recommend?
> 
> Viv
> 
> PS I seem to have hijacked this thread! If I should move it elsewhere please let me know!!



 I may have just been unlucky with the solenoid that came with the regulator. The regulator was fine and still working brilliantly, it was just the solenoid gave up. I ended up getting a new solenoid from germany for £20. so if the solenoid does go wrong then just get a replacement. I was not trying to knock the item just saying my experiance with it, but as said it may have just been my one.


----------



## Viv (7 Dec 2011)

Ok   I'm a bit of a worry-wart at the best of times and I'm really quite nervous about this whole CO2 thing! I'm sure it will all go well when the time comes though and I'll feel like an idiot!!   

Viv


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke (7 Dec 2011)

There's nothing to worry about mate, at the end of the day its just a case of connecting it all up and adjusting it until it hits your target. If your intending using a fire extinguisher any problems just let go of the handle and everytings safe again.


----------



## Viv (7 Dec 2011)

That's good to know! I am going to be using a FE.

Viv


----------

