# Glassy plants



## Victor (4 Sep 2014)

My plants are demonstrating a symptom that their leaves become transparents. There only 2 species with this problem in my tank that are hemianthus micranthemoides and didiplis diandra. I'm injecting a good quantity of CO2 but the CO2 dissolving rate is a little unstable. Sometimes my needle valve discalibrates and inject less CO2 than the normal that are more than 90 ppm in my tank. I turn on the gas 4 hour before the lights on and turn it off 3 hours before the lights off. I'm doing it properly? Thank you.


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## ceg4048 (4 Sep 2014)

Victor,
       You're doing something wrong because that is a CO2 deficiency symptom. You really ought not to need 4 hours to saturate the water. That's a really long time. I don't know how you are calculating it but it's not very likely that there is 90ppm.

Cheers,


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## Victor (4 Sep 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> I don't know how you are calculating it but it's not very likely that there is 90ppm.


 I'm using two drop checkers one at 8,5 dkh and another at 20,5 dkh and both are green. My flow is very good but my lighting is little. Only 2 x 30 W T8 tubes over all the tank lenght. My tank has 200 cm x 40 cm x 45 (height). Could little light cause the same symptoms (glassy leaves)?


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## Henry (5 Sep 2014)

Victor said:


> I'm using two drop checkers one at 8,5 dkh and another at 20,5 dkh and both are green.



Nay.

http://www.ukaps.org/index.php?page=co2-measurement-using-a-drop-checker

Yay.


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## mr. luke (5 Sep 2014)

If your dkh figure where both accurate then the 8.5 dkh would be yellow and the 20.5 would be green.


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## Victor (5 Sep 2014)

mr. luke said:


> If your dkh figure where both accurate then the 8.5 dkh would be yellow and the 20.5 would be green


 The 8,5 dkh is lime green and the 20,5 dkh is bluish green. I'll post a picture when my CO2 turn on.


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## Mortis (5 Sep 2014)

CO2 should come on about 1-2 hours before the lights and switch off around 1 hour before the lights. I would say in this case lighting is actually quite low for your size tank for plants such as HC


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## Victor (5 Sep 2014)

Mortis said:


> CO2 should come on about 1-2 hours before the lights and switch off around 1 hour before the lights. I would say in this case lighting is actually quite low for your size tank for plants such as HC


So, I need to increase my light? If so, how much?

So guys, do you know if low light could cause glassy leaves symptoms or it is exclusive to CO2 lack?


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## John P Coates (6 Sep 2014)

Victor said:


> The 8,5 dkh is lime green and the 20,5 dkh is bluish green. I'll post a picture when my CO2 turn on.


Hi Victor,

Presumably you made up the drop checker solutions yourself to achieve 8.5dKH and 20.5dKH. What was the reason for this?

JPC


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## Victor (7 Sep 2014)

John P Coates said:


> Presumably you made up the drop checker solutions yourself to achieve 8.5dKH and 20.5dKH. What was the reason for this


 Yes, because I'm aim for 100 ppm of CO2 or more. I'm trying to stop my plants become glassy but it isn't work. Maybe the low light is the guilty? I really don't know.


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## John P Coates (7 Sep 2014)

Victor said:


> I'm injecting a good quantity of CO2 but the CO2 dissolving rate is a little unstable. Sometimes my needle valve discalibrates and inject less CO2 than the normal that are more than 90 ppm in my tank.


Hi Victor,

In order to eliminate the variables, is it possible to fix your dodgy needle valve in the first instance? It may be contributing to the problem. Are you able to measure the water pH at set intervals? It may give you an idea of how much the CO2 is fluctuating as a result of the needle valve. Since your tank is 360 litres, it's a fair size. I notice on the website Aquascaping World, it says "_Didiplis diandra_ is a delicate plant that requires intense lighting, carbon dioxide, and regular fertilization of micronutrients and iron". Does the lighting in your tank look dull?

A few points to ponder.

JPC


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## Victor (7 Sep 2014)

John P Coates said:


> In order to eliminate the variables, is it possible to fix your dodgy needle valve in the first instance? It may be contributing to the problem. Are you able to measure the water pH at set intervals? It may give you an idea of how much the CO2 is fluctuating as a result of the needle valve. Since your tank is 360 litres, it's a fair size. I notice on the website Aquascaping World, it says "Didiplis diandra is a delicate plant that requires intense lighting, carbon dioxide, and regular fertilization of micronutrients and iron". Does the lighting in your tank look dull?


 Thanks by you reply Jhon. So, my ph tank water without CO2 is higher than 7,5, and I think it takes until seven days to water surface agitation releases all the dissolved CO2 to atmosphere. I have a kh higher 1, something between 1,5 and 2 I reckon. At the beginning of photoperiod my ph is 6,4 and at the end 5,7 or even lower. My drop checkers keep bluish green even when the gas is turned off. About the lights bulbs, you can imagine that I'm using just one tube over all tank length. It's like a 60 w T8 tube measuring 1,8 m and covering almost all the tank length (I have a good reflector over this tube). So, it seems poor light, no? I really don't know if the glassy leaves symptoms is also related to low light or is a exclusive CO2 lack symptom. May Ceg could explain this better for us.


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## John P Coates (7 Sep 2014)

Victor said:


> About the lights bulbs, you can imagine that I'm using just one tube over all tank length. It's like a 60 w T8 tube measuring 1,8 m and covering almost all the tank length (I have a good reflector over this tube). So, it seems poor light, no?


Hi Victor,

Yes, I would agree. In the absence of any other data and using the WPG (Watts Per Gallon) rule-of-thumb as a rough guide, your tank would need at least 200W of fluorescent lighting. You're running the tank on one third of that figure!

JPC


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## Victor (7 Sep 2014)

John P Coates said:


> In the absence of any other data and using the WPG (Watts Per Gallon) rule-of-thumb as a rough guide, your tank would need at least 200W of fluorescent lighting. You're running the tank on one third of that figure


 You're right. I'm thinking to increase the lighting to 180 w but I'm afraid of an algae outbreak


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## John P Coates (7 Sep 2014)

Victor said:


> You're right. I'm thinking to increase the lighting to 180 w but I'm afraid of an algae outbreak


Hi Victor,

I fully appreciate where you are coming from.

One of the most important lessons I have learned from this community is that, if the plants are growing well, then algae will not be a problem. Quite simply, the plants will deplete algae of the nutrients they require. It's rather like a tug 'o' war competition. Ensure that the plants get their energy drinks and the algae walk away defeated.

So, give your plants all the nutrients and light that they need, then let nature take care of the rest. How simple is that? We have to take the plunge. Why not increase the lighting and, at the same time, reduce the CO2 level to, say, 50ppm. You have no fish in the tank so no risk there. It's up to you how you choose to increase the lighting. I favour the use of LEDs for a lot of reasons, not least of which they are *controllable*. Shop around, though. There are too many companies who just want to make a fast buck on this latest development. Check the specified PAR output of the lighting as this is perhaps the most important parameter if you're a plant! If the manufacturer makes nebulous statements about brightness in lumens or lux, that is just an indication of how bright it appears to we humans. If they have little technical data to offer, look elsewhere. And, if you don't understand the technical stuff, then don't be concerned. There are plenty of people at UKAPS that are only too willing to help.

JPC


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## ceg4048 (7 Sep 2014)

John P Coates said:


> Quite simply, the plants will deplete algae of the nutrients they require. It's rather like a tug 'o' war competition. Ensure that the plants get their energy drinks and the algae walk away defeated.


This path leads to destruction. It's not even close to being accurate. Algae do not care anything about the nutrient content of the water and they are the predators.

Cheers,


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## John P Coates (7 Sep 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> This path leads to destruction. It's not even close to being accurate. Algae do not care anything about the nutrient content of the water and they are the predators.


OK, then. You can't make statements like this without substantiating them. You have your platform. Give us the benefit of your knowledge!

There was I foolishly thinking that I was getting somewhere learning about the aquatic environment. Clearly, I was living a hopeless illusion! I am disheartened. I must be a complete, useless idiot!

JPC


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## ceg4048 (7 Sep 2014)

Not completely mate.

The statement is substantiated by the fact that EI works. If algae cared about the nutrient level then adding an unlimited supply of nutrients would clearly favor algae because algae are in the water column with the nutrients and nutrients must first make contact with algae BEFORE reaching the plants.

Plants are thousands of times more massive than algae. That necessarily means that plants require thousands of times more nutrition than algae. When the nutrient levels fall in the tank, the first to suffer are the plants because their threshold of starvation is higher than that of algae. Dosing any eutrophic scheme (EI, PMDD and others) immediately supply plants with above threshold nutrition. 

Algae can be grown in RO water where the nutrient levels are in the ppb (parts per billion). Plants will starve very easily under those conditions, so there is no way plants can ever compete with algae. You will NEVER be able to starve algae without completely annihilating all of your plants.

Your illusions are based on information programmed into you in The Matrix. Free your mind.

Cheers,


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## Andy D (7 Sep 2014)

I've never really understood the thinking behind plants using up the nutrients to prevent algae. Unless plants use up all the nutrients immediately then algae must have access to them too. Therefore why doesn't every tank with any trace of nutrients have algae?

The answer as we know is that nutrients do not cause algae!


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## John P Coates (7 Sep 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> Your illusions are based on information programmed into you in The Matrix. Free your mind.


You are insulting beyond belief!

I am, by all means, an intelligent, educated individual but I have emotional and mental health issues. I have a Honours degree in Electronics and I am a Chartered Engineer. I cannot tolerate your superior, 'I know better than you' attitude any longer. Why do you take this superior stance? Foolishly, I thought you were here to help people with the science of aquatic plant keeping. Unfortunately, your need to talk down to people stands in the way of your undisputed knowledge and that, along with your repeated contradictions, leaves me with no alternative but to sever any connection with UKAPS.

Goodbye!

JPC


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## Victor (8 Sep 2014)

Ceg, do you think it's worth I buy a par meter? I really don't know if my lights is enough. Read my last post here:



Victor said:


> I'm using just one tube over all tank length. It's like a 60 w T8 tube measuring 1,8 m and covering almost all the tank length (I have a good reflector over this tube). So, it seems poor light, no? I really don't know if the glassy leaves symptoms is also related to low light or is a exclusive CO2 lack symptom. May Ceg could explain this better for us.


 
My tank is 200 cm x 40 cm x 45 cm (height). The poor light can cause glassy leaves in hemianthus micranthemoides and didiplis diandra? What do you think about?


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## Henry (8 Sep 2014)

John P Coates said:


> You are insulting beyond belief!
> 
> I am, by all means, an intelligent, educated individual but I have emotional and mental health issues. I have a Honours degree in Electronics and I am a Chartered Engineer. I cannot tolerate your superior, 'I know better than you' attitude any longer. Why do you take this superior stance? Foolishly, I thought you were here to help people with the science of aquatic plant keeping. Unfortunately, your need to talk down to people stands in the way of your undisputed knowledge and that, along with your repeated contradictions, leaves me with no alternative but to sever any connection with UKAPS.
> 
> ...



John, I think you have misinterpreted Clive's tone, which is easily done in a written context. Clive is extremely knowledgeable in the field of aquatic plants, and a highly respected member of the UKAPS community. It's understandable to assume he is being condescending when he harps on about 'The Matrix' (I couldn't possibly say, but I reckon the guy is something of a fan of the film(s)), however, it must be taken in the good humour it is written in. We are all lead to believe all sorts of convenient lies by the aquatics industry, and this is the "matrix" to which Clive refers.

We're all in a process of learning. I'm certain there are some highly schooled people on this forum, who have a great deal of knowledge outside of aquatics, but this is not to assume that they know everything about the subject at hand. Many experienced members of the forum disregarded - and perhaps still do - the Twinstar gadget as snake oil, but over time have been disproved. Aquatic plants, and their growth habits, are an enigma that is still being decoded.

I'm not sure why I took it upon myself to post this, but I feel it is a shame to turn your back on the most comprehensive knowledge base for aquatic plants on the internet or, perhaps, in the world, merely due to the misinterpretation of the tone of a single members post.

Kind regards,
Henry

(P.s. Sorry for going completely off topic).


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## GHNelson (8 Sep 2014)

Never watched the Bourne Community films! What's the Matrix


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## andy-mu (11 Sep 2014)

John P Coates said:


> You are insulting beyond belief!
> I am, by all means, an intelligent, educated individual but I have emotional and mental health issues. I have a Honours degree in Electronics and I am a Chartered Engineer. I cannot tolerate your superior, 'I know better than you' attitude any longer. Why do you take this superior stance? Foolishly, I thought you were here to help people with the science of aquatic plant keeping. Unfortunately, your need to talk down to people stands in the way of your undisputed knowledge and that, along with your repeated contradictions, leaves me with no alternative but to sever any connection with UKAPS.
> Goodbye!
> JPC



Clive knows his stuff.

You will learn from him. I have made a few posts and he is very helpful AND knowledgeable.

That's all you need if you are in the learning aquascaping.

Don't get me wrong, Clive's not alone. There are plenty of knowledgeable people on here.

I would say though as one poster already stated, text can naturally look a bit cold. The tone of your own post
isn't very endearing either and not one that would perhaps encourage favourable responses.

Thumbs up for Clive from me. Knows his stuff. I don't find him to have a superior stance. That's simply called, knowing the answer. If he were to comment on a post of mine If I was having issues, and offered a solution, I would pursue that to remedy my issue


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