# Breeding l046



## jamesb (4 Sep 2012)

My mother in law has recently got a tank (and roped me in to look after it) and has since fallen in love with the zebra plec. I have potentially found a place selling some at a reasonable price and she is now mulling over setting me up with a few and a tank to try and breed them. Now I have told her they aren't the easiest to breed and that it's not a get rich quick thing it's more like I get some awesome fish and we make a little bit every now and then. I am a little worried however that I am going to struggle to sell the young when they are ready. I know a lot of people would love one but I worry  people see the price tag and decide they are too pricey. Now I would only be charging a modest price in the zebra plec world but does genuine demand outstrip supply or is it just one of this fish everyone wants but no one wants to pay for?


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## somethingfishy (4 Sep 2012)

check out plecoplanet just signed up myself .. looks like lots of interest to me


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## Fox (5 Sep 2012)

I've seen juveniles at a "very reasonable" sub-£80 - as many as I want!   

I asked why you don't see more breeding groups (as presume people buy in numbers for just that) and he said it's a time-thing, they take a while to grow and settle. Think he said something about 3 years from juvenile, but I was still scraping myself off the floor so possibly heard him wrong. 

I do still fancy some, but I'd be scared of seeing an £80 note upside down at the bottom of my tank if something went breasts in the air!


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## hinch (5 Sep 2012)

£80 is very cheap for zebs even juvs
they're hypans so fairly easy to breed once you get fully setup they like lots of oxygen and the water to be warm apart from that they're not massively fussy although harder water can reduce your spawn count as the eggs are harder to crack so you get more egg losses.
they're slow and gentle so best having a species only tank with lots and lots of caves 1 male to 3 females is a good ratio

have a search around for some zeb biotopes there's some very good examples out there.


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## ghostsword (5 Sep 2012)

Have a go, and sell them for £50.. or less, and they will go quickly.. They are nice looking fish, but yes, it is still a lot of money for the fish...


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## Gary Nelson (5 Sep 2012)

ghostsword said:
			
		

> Have a go, and sell them for £50.. or less, and they will go quickly.. They are nice looking fish, but yes, it is still a lot of money for the fish...




A good idea at £50.... Id take one off your hands


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## hinch (5 Sep 2012)

at 50 quid i'd take them all off his hands and resell them for £100-150 each


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## jamesb (5 Sep 2012)

At £50 a pop I would have every other zeb breeder at my door with pitch forks Lol! It will probably be in hinchs range with a bit of discount to the lovely people of this forum. That's if it comes off anyway. Fingers crossed!


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## dw1305 (6 Sep 2012)

Hi all,


> I have potentially found a place selling some at a reasonable price and she is now mulling over setting me up with a few and a tank to try and breed them. Now I have told her they aren't the easiest to breed and that it's not a get rich quick thing it's more like I get some awesome fish and we make a little bit every now and then.


The reason why they are still so expensive is that most people who buy them as juveniles don't actually get the fish to adulthood, let alone breed them successfully. One of the reasons for this is that all _Hypancistrus_ are very unforgiving of any loss of oxygenation, combined this with L046 high temperature requirements and it means any slight loss of filtration capacity or water quality is likely to be fatal. This means you have to be really conscientious about tank care at all the time over the ~4 or 5 years from fry to adult. 

I haven't kept L46, although I do have some other _Hypancistrus_. If I set up to breed them, I would definitely have a "wet and dry" trickle filter and at least 2 other filters running, and keep them in a small colony in a large volume tank with only Cherry Shrimps and possibly _Corydoras_ as "dithers" and to encourage spawning.

They are also quite territorial, leading to fighting and potentially death (for both males and females), difficult to sex, highly nocturnal and extremely poor competitors for food.

cheers Darrel


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## Antipofish (6 Sep 2012)

jamesb said:
			
		

> At £50 a pop I would have every other zeb breeder at my door with pitch forks Lol! It will probably be in hinchs range with a bit of discount to the lovely people of this forum. That's if it comes off anyway. Fingers crossed!



See thats the problem James.  You are asking is there real demand, and yet you want to be led by what other breeders seem to want to charge.  Sell at a price where demand matches what you can supply.  ALL of what you can supply (less what you need to keep back to maintain a breeding program.  That way you will be maximising your sales AND increasing ownership of this species.  

It always annoys me when a species is kept on a pedestal such as Zebras.  When I first started fishkeeping you could buy these for £12 each !!!  Then because of over fishing of them at source they went on the endangered list (I believe) and a few people decided they were going to try and get rich quick.  Some did, some didn't.  The same happened in New Zealand with Leopard Geckos when imports of them was stopped.  They sell for $1500 over there which is about £700.  You can buy them for £30 here !!!

The more people that can afford them, the more will try and breed them, and eventually there will be lots of them available.  Thats gotta be a good thing


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## Fox (7 Sep 2012)

Pesky thread!   

Was in the fish-room thinking about what I could shuffle to make space for a group! Trouble is, I have the attention span of a gnat so watching them grow over several years from juvies might be a bit of an ask. Having said that, the years seem to be going passed much quicker as I get that bit older


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## jamesb (7 Sep 2012)

Antipofish said:
			
		

> jamesb said:
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I know where your coming from. And I would have no problem selling them at £50....... Except I know that some people. Will take advantage of that, but 3 of me at 150 then sell the for anything from £300 and double their money. There is nothing wrong with that it's just good business. If this does happen I would have no problem selling them at the lower end of the current price (whatever that may be at the time). And sorting out some money off for members of the forum etc but I am not really willing to sell them at such a price people are able to buy them and double their money for nothing.


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## Antipofish (7 Sep 2012)

jamesb said:
			
		

> Antipofish said:
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Why not ? What difference does it make to you what they do with them afterwards? They would be their fish to do with as they please surely ? You said above, you would have no problem selling them at 50 quid.  What does it matter if they sell them on and make a profit ? You would have got what you wanted for them and it would have enabled you to sell all of them, thus making the venture possible to fund in perpetuity right ?  Would it annoy you that they were able to get more than you could  ?  Or would you rather risk not selling all of what you have ? 

If you would be happy with 50 quid, then you would be happy with 50 quid.  No ifs buts or maybes.  And they wouldn't be making any more than you really.  You make 150 out of selling three, and then they make it too.  Thats what happens all the time with breeders.  If you sell your offspring to a fish shop they will give you 50 quid each and then sell them for 150 plus.  But lots of breeders so just that to get rid of them.  So why not cut out the middle man and make them available to people who want them but cant afford shop prices ?

It all boils down to whether you want to make money out of it or whether you want to fund something that you would like to do.  I suspect if it is successful, even at 50 quid each you will make money.  I also suspect that you are right, SOME people may well sell them on at a profit.  But most will keep them.  I really don't see the quandary.

Here's a little anecdote... Recently my mothers Micra CVT gearbox failed.  It would not go into gear. It might have cost several hundred, if not over a thousand if it required a new gearbox.  We had two options.  Fix it and maybe spend a lot of money or get rid of it.  We chose the second option.  Then we had two other options.  Scrap it or sell it to a local mechanic who might have the chance of making it work.  We took the second option because if he managed to, he would be able to make a bit, but we were still getting what we wanted for the car.  He fixed it !! We sold it to him for £150 and he sold it for £400 having spent time and a bit on new brushes, and doing a couple of bits of welding.  Didn't matter though, cos we got what we wanted and were able to help someone out into the bargain.  Just think of it in those terms rather than getting hung up on the thought that someone can make a bit of money as well as you.  Like you said mate, thats just good business sense.


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## JenCliBee (7 Sep 2012)

I mean this is the nicest possible way so please don't jump on my reply as being anything other than trying to be helpful lol.


I think your getting a little ahead of yourself in regards to breeding and thinking about potential selling prices. You will ultimately be buying juvi 1 inch fish, yes?. These fish are around about 4 years (min) to getting anywhere near to a breeding age.... however, some wont breed until 6 possibly 7 years.... some wont breed at all. A possible 5-7 years down the line could bounce the price on these fish to silly money, it also could bring them down to pennies as they once were...basically talking about a selling price 5 years prior isn't really gonna help the matter.

Despite some posts stating these are easy to breed, i will inform you there not, many very experienced breeders still have trouble spawning these fish, alot have given up because no matter what they try, they just aren't having any luck.

There is also other factors to price.... desirability, supply and demand is only the half of it..... these fish only produce very small batches of eggs... 15 is considered a very big spawn nowadays.... average is often only 4-7 eggs.... the success rate of rearing fry is probably less than 50%.... 50% on 4 eggs doesn't leave much in the way of any sort of profit once you consider the sellable age for juvi fish is 12 months old.... add the cost of the food, running costs including often water changes, heater requirements (tank needs to be a stable minimum of 82c)... over the year it adds up... selling a fish that you have a couple of for a very low amount will likely to be making a loss not a profit.

Another factor is they often only spawn once maybe twice a year..... again often they spawn once and it could be another couple of years before they spawn again if they spawn again at all.

So..... basically, there are many factors on why these fish hold such a high price... as mentioned supply and demand isn't just the only thing to consider.... you list these fish at £150 each, they will sell, sell them for £100...they will sell quicker, sell them for £50 and they will go like hotcakes, however.... making a loss just to sell a fish which is worth more isn't...1,good business sense... 2, worth breeding them in there first place unless your only intention is to help a population boost.

I would seriously consider buying a different species if your sole intention is to breed..... you are much more likely to make a slight profit and you gain experience and the understanding of actually breeding plecs instead of jumping in at the deep end.


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## dw1305 (7 Sep 2012)

Hi all,
JenCliBee is right, that is the economics of it. They aren't ever going to be a cheap fish, and  the lower prices in the past were lower because they were being "strip-mined" from the Rio Xingu. My personal opinion is that most wild caught  imports of nearly all _Hypancistrus_, and most of the other Loricariids, will decline in the future as their populations are further threatened by Agriculture, habitat destruction, hydroelectric dams, gold mining etc., as well as collection for the pet trade. They are classic "K selected" species, like Parrots or Mahogany, and there is no way present levels of exports are sustainable.

If I was looking to breed a reasonably available Plec for pocket money, I'd be looking at _Ancistrus claro_ or a dotty black Bristlenose species like L100, 183 etc, a _Hypancistrus_ L333, L270, L340, L201 or _Peckoltia compta_ (formerly L134). 

cheers Darrel


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## Fox (7 Sep 2012)

Truth is you can breed and sell 'regular' bristlenoses easy enough - might only get £1 or so from the local shop, but go in there with 50 or more and you've got the same proceeds an an L046 which might never happen (and will have cost a whole lot more money & time to get that far). 

I still quite fancy a group though


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## hinch (7 Sep 2012)

i have breeding albino bn's and long fin common and albino bn groups also have groups of l333 and l264's and l014
333's are just starting to spawn now the 264's are ready but difficult to get going its not just a case of sticking in tank and leaving them to it (they're hypans too) I fancied a challenge with the 264's as nobody else breeds them. l14's aren't massively difficult just take alot of cleaning up after and alot of space since they're big fish.

one things for sure I don't exactly make money off of them


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## sr20det (7 Sep 2012)

I would love the red bn, I have 2 large adults males 4" BN and a medium female 2.5" but alas no joy on the breeding front.  I have slate caves, which they do enter, but dont fit 100%, could that be the issue?  Would love to breed them.


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## jamesb (7 Sep 2012)

I think this has got a little out of hand lol. I said in my op that I know it's hard etc and I know it isn't going to make me loads of money and I am more excited about just having them. All I was asking was if it is a struggle to actually sell them seeing as they are rather pricey if you sell them at the current rye i am seeing online. If I don't sell them I am not fussed I love them. I know i may not even get them to spawn etc and that doesnt bother me either.we only got on to actual selling prices due to other peoples suggestions.


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## JenCliBee (7 Sep 2012)

jamesb said:
			
		

> I think this has got a little out of hand lol. I said in my op that I know it's hard etc and I know it isn't going to make me loads of money and I am more excited about just having them. All I was asking was if it is a struggle to actually sell them seeing as they are rather pricey if you sell them at the current rye i am seeing online. If I don't sell them I am not fussed I love them. I know i may not even get them to spawn etc and that doesnt bother me either.we only got on to actual selling prices due to other peoples suggestions.



Not so much it's got out of hand, more some info to let you know what your getting yourself in for before you folk out hundreds of £'s on fish that no one knows the selling price in 5-7 years time. As you say, they are beautiful fish but most zeb keepers will tell you to enjoy them as they are because you may never actually spawn or raise fry.... forget the selling and breeding because it wont bring you much money in even if you manage to spawn them and it's certainly not a get rich quick scheme...see it as you have pets which many, many people drool over and long to keep but just wont/cant justify spending that sort of money.


In the case of the question above... priced right anything will sell.... common prices for juvi 46's are around £100-£120 depending on size... some a little larger go for £150... but yes they do sell and sell well and currently there is always a market for them...again though, in 5 years time no knows what the current market may hold .


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## Antipofish (7 Sep 2012)

I dont think its out of hand mate.  Its just people offering their opinions on a subject you raised in the first place surely ?  Some opinions will be relevant to you, others not.  Some you will like and others not.  Doesn't mean the thread has got out of hand though 

I have to disagree with the opinion someone posted that L046 will always remain an expensive fish.  The more people like yourself who try and breed them and are successful, the greater the availability and eventually the lower the price will be.  I have seen this in certain African cichlid species, I have seen it in reptiles, I have seen it in purebred bengal cats (having been a registered breeder myself in NZ) and we will see it in these fish hopefully too.  That is simple economics.  The only way it would not happen is by people not being successful in their breeding (which is a point JCB correctly raised), or being discouraged from trying.  My way of thinking is that with any species that is endangered or in small numbers, the more people trying to perpetuate the species the better 

I hope you do attempt this venture.  I am sure you will put every effort into making it succeed and a few more zebra plecs on the planet is a good move as far as I am concerned


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## dw1305 (7 Sep 2012)

Hi all,


> I have to disagree with the opinion someone posted that L046 will always remain an expensive fish. The more people like yourself who try and breed them and are successful, the greater the availability and eventually the lower the price will be. I have seen this in certain African cichlid species, I have seen it in reptiles, I have seen it in purebred bengal cats (having been a registered breeder myself in NZ) and we will see it in these fish hopefully too. That is simple economics.


I'd like you to be right, but I'll have a sporting bet that they will be more expensive in 5 years time (including inflation etc.). The reason why demand will always out-strip supply is that they aren't like any of the animals you've mentioned. They are K adapted, long-lived, slow maturity, show parental care and have a very small brood size: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R/K_selection_theory>. A good analogy would be African Grey, Macaw or Amazon Parrots. If you look at "JenClibee's" post, she goes through the details of their reproduction. Bearing that in mind, my suspicion is that once wild fish aren't being imported even maintaining a captive population long term will be difficult. 

cheers Darrel


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## JenCliBee (7 Sep 2012)

dw1305 said:
			
		

> Hi all,
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> > I have to disagree with the opinion someone posted that L046 will always remain an expensive fish. The more people like yourself who try and breed them and are successful, the greater the availability and eventually the lower the price will be. I have seen this in certain African cichlid species, I have seen it in reptiles, I have seen it in purebred bengal cats (having been a registered breeder myself in NZ) and we will see it in these fish hopefully too. That is simple economics.
> ...



Couldn't agree more Darrel, except for the red highlighted section..... i'm actually male     lol


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## Antipofish (7 Sep 2012)

JenCliBee said:
			
		

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Had to chuckle at the mis sexing ! Hehehe.  Well  I will (sadly) stand corrected if that is the case.  Its a pity though.


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (7 Sep 2012)

I too thought JenCliBee was female


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## Antipofish (7 Sep 2012)

Whitey89 said:
			
		

> I too thought JenCliBee was female



If you dont shut up and log off of UKAPS you are going to miss your flight !!! Go on holiday already     And dont forget to bring back some local grog


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## jamesb (7 Sep 2012)

Lol afraid to say I too thought female. Amazing how people will make assumptions from the first three letters of a user name. Apologies jen


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (7 Sep 2012)

Its Tomorrow Chris


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## somethingfishy (7 Sep 2012)

I thought jencilbee was female too .. oops apologies mr jen by the way the shrimp look great in there new home.

Back to plecs like i said before join plecoplanet there are some great logs on there and loads of information ... seen jencilbee on there and darrel is one of the experts lol he knows too much


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## JenCliBee (7 Sep 2012)

> Had to chuckle at the mis sexing ! Hehehe.



It actually made me smile to   



			
				Whitey89 said:
			
		

> I too thought JenCliBee was female







			
				jamesb said:
			
		

> Lol afraid to say I too thought female. Amazing how people will make assumptions from the first three letters of a user name. Apologies jen



No worries mate, Jen is actually short for Jenson but even that ain't my real name lol   



			
				somethingfishy said:
			
		

> I thought jencilbee was female too .. oops apologies mr jen by the way the shrimp look great in there new home.
> 
> Back to plecs like i said before join plecoplanet there are some great logs on there and loads of information ... seen jencilbee on there and darrel is one of the experts lol he knows too much




LOL..... i promise you peeps, i'm all man... well the last time i checked anyways .

And yep a member on plecoplanet as is Darrel.... i'm not as active on there as i was on 'plecofanatics' (PF was the best plec site around, shame it eventually finished )... but PP is still a very good source of info.

Glad to know the shrimp are doing well mate.... i bet you have hundreds by now lol.


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## hinch (8 Sep 2012)

i'd also recommend planetcatfish as well as pleco planet (pp seems very quiet to me most of the time or its full of aussies complaining about their import lists  )


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## JenCliBee (8 Sep 2012)

hinch said:
			
		

> i'd also recommend planetcatfish as well as pleco planet (pp seems very quiet to me most of the time or its full of aussies complaining about their import lists  )



Good call mate, haven't been as active on PC as i used to be either but again a very good site.... i did notice what you mentioned with PP, since being a little more active, ive noticed that it's very Aussie orientated of late and very quiet on the English front... not that i have anything against Aussies but for a UK based site, they do seem to have taken over a little...especially in the classifieds section lol.


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## hinch (8 Sep 2012)

indeed i was trying to get 264's not a single reply on pp but got 5 off pc


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## dw1305 (9 Sep 2012)

Hi all,
I can give a bit of back-ground about PP (I'm still part of the staff). It arose from the ashes of "Plecofanatics", which was a forum started by a "Jeff" a Singapore? based plec keeper. He disappeared and it was impossible to retain the PF site, which had a lot of Australian members. That is why the core of British members started PP. 

I originally became active on PF, because I had met and became friendly with  2 Bristol based plec keepers, Graham (the geeman) and Bob (Macvsog23). They were both very active on the forum and extremely knowledgeable. Bob was undoubtedly the best fish keeper I ever met, and just a top bloke as well. He was an engineer by profession and had both phenomenal attention to detail and about 40 years of fish keeping experience.  

More recently Graham had scaled his fish-keeping down due to family pressures, and then Bob tragically died earlier in the year and the PP forum has never really recovered.
<http://www.plecoplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16037>

cheers Darrel


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## Antipofish (9 Sep 2012)

dw1305 said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> I can give a bit of back-ground about PP (I'm still part of the staff). It arose from the ashes of "Plecofanatics", which was a forum started by a "Jeff" a Singapore? based plec keeper. He disappeared and it was impossible to retain the PF site, which had a lot of Australian members. That is why the core of British members started PP.
> 
> I originally became active on PF, because I had met and became friendly with  2 Bristol based plec keepers, Graham (the geeman) and Bob (Macvsog23). They were both very active on the forum and extremely knowledgeable. Bob was undoubtedly the best fish keeper I ever met, and just a top bloke as well. He was an engineer by profession and had both phenomenal attention to detail and about 40 years of fish keeping experience.
> ...



Sounds like a great loss to all concerned Darrel


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## dw1305 (10 Sep 2012)

Hi all,


> Sounds like a great loss to all concerned Darrel


I miss him every day, I've got a fish he gave me (male L100) and the _Dicrossus maculatus_ pair that he collected from Rare Aquatics for me (as juveniles) in the lab tank, and an L333 at home that I was going to take up for him on the day he died. 

He was just a great bloke.





cheers Darrel


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## sr20det (10 Sep 2012)

Sad news, and does seem a great loss.


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