# Ph profiling



## Carpman (21 Oct 2018)

Since I have only just a bought a Ph pen (cheapy amazon), I thought I would try it out before I rip tank down ready for re-scape. I installed the new lighting yesterday, Heliolux with day and night controller (I have made a custom profile).
I know there are other members here using this lighting system, (as there is no actual lights on or off anymore)
My question to them is when do put your On/Off Co2?

I have reset Co2 to about 10Bps now because of new lighting
What should I be looking for?

I have done a couple of profiles if that is what I can call them lol.
First try yesterday not going to list it all did'nt do full day 
Started at  Ph7.52, 10am, Gas on
                  Ph7.25, 11am, Lights on
                  Ph7,       2pm,  new lights fitted
                  Ph 6.95, 5pm,
                                 6pm, gas off
                  Ph7.05, 11pm lights off

Lights diming from 2pm (on 70% between 12-2pm)

Todays profile so far is (Lights start brightening at 5am till 12 noon) 
Ph 7.30, 6am
Ph 7.30, 6.30
PH7.25, 7
Ph7.32, 7.30
Ph7.36, 8
Ph7.37, 8.30
Ph7.38, 9         Gas on
Ph7.31, 9.30
Ph7.25, 10
Ph7.22, 10.30
Ph7.06, 11      
Ph7,      11.30
Ph7.08, 12        Lights now at temporary max of 70%
Ph6.92, 12.30

I dont know if it makes a difference my koralia comes on at 11


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## Zeus. (21 Oct 2018)

Aims of a good pH profile.

Get a 1.0pH drop before lights come on. May take 2-3 hours dependant on injection method.
Once lights come on stable pH for rest of CO2 period- this is hard to get right takes lots of tweaking.
Use DC colour change to estimate [CO2] allowing time for it to change colour can take 2hrs
Repeat, repeat, repeat ..... Till pH profile is right.
Any change in light intensity and/or flow affects CO2 usage/loss. So short daybreak period is best IMO


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## Edvet (21 Oct 2018)

Looks like your pH drops during at least 3 hours ( 7.38-6.92) If 6.92 is your lowest point, you should start CO2 3 hours before lights on.


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## Carpman (21 Oct 2018)

@Zeus. Injection method is via bazooka currently but will be change to Qanvee inline when it arrives also awaiting new DC.

@Edvet last 3 measurements all at 6.92 so it seems to have stabilised, I will adjust Co2 on time .... This is where it gets tricky because my lighting starts at 5am and finishes at 11pm, well they never actually finish because I have 5% blue/moon light through the night (more natural  but just trying it out)    Peak lighting is at about 11.30am so if put gas on at 7.30, 4 hrs before peak light and gas off at 5pm that will give 2 hrs before sundown sort of thinghttp://[URL=http://smg.photobucket.com/user/carpman1/media/20181021_063206.jpg.html][ATTACH=full]141804[/ATTACH]

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[ATTACH=full]141805[/ATTACH]


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## Zeus. (21 Oct 2018)

That's a very long dawn and sunrise period IMO.
Algae has much lower PAR lighting requirements for it to thrive, yes it likes high levels but it can also grow at much lower PAR levels than plants so having long periods of low level lighting you can end up giving the algae the chance it needs. Same with long sunset and dusk periods, esp when they occur everyday.
I do have a moonlight Passover period which I love but I don't have it everyday as I have to activate it via PLC button or mobile phone so only activate it if in the room at night.


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## Carpman (21 Oct 2018)

@Zeus. Thanks for the info, I will certainly be keeping an eye open for algae. I will probably adjust lighting periods anyway, it suits my normally working day up at 5am thats the only reason I started it so early but not so keen on the white light first thing or last thing at night, I may drop both dawn and dusk white light you dont know until we try.


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## Hendre (21 Oct 2018)

What pen model are you using? I have found the cheap pens to be useless compared to liquid or high-end meters.


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## Carpman (21 Oct 2018)

Hendre said:


> What pen model are you using? I have found the cheap pens to be useless compared to liquid or high-end meters.


Just an amazon 1, Macdodod ph-o2. Reviews were good for cheapy to start off with.


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## Hendre (21 Oct 2018)

Carpman said:


> Just an amazon 1, Macdodod ph-o2. Reviews were good for cheapy to start off with.


Looks okay. The soft water where I live throws cheap electrodes off


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## Harry H (21 Oct 2018)

Zeus. said:


> Aims of a good pH profile.
> 
> Get a 1.0pH drop before lights come on. May take 2-3 hours dependant on injection method.
> Once lights come on stable pH for rest of CO2 period- this is hard to get right takes lots of tweaking.
> ...



@Zeus. or @Edvet, could you please elaborate on "_Once lights come on stable pH for rest of CO2 period- this is hard to get right takes lots of tweaking_."

How do you achieve this? Thank you


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## Zeus. (22 Oct 2018)

Harry H said:


> @Zeus. or @Edvet, could you please elaborate on "_Once lights come on stable pH for rest of CO2 period- this is hard to get right takes lots of tweaking_."
> 
> How do you achieve this? Thank you



Increase/decrease the BPS


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## ian_m (22 Oct 2018)

Harry H said:


> could you please elaborate on "_Once lights come on stable pH for rest of CO2 period- this is hard to get right takes lots of tweaking_."


What you are trying to achieve is that by lights on the CO2 is 30ppm (parts per million) and stays a steady 30ppm for the duration the lights are on.

30ppm may be estimated by use an in tank drop checker being green/yellow or the pH being dropped by one unit for when lights come on. Just so happens that, in non soft water, adding CO2 to 30pmm ends up with a pH drop of 1. Use a pH pen not a test kits and test kits will give you erroneous pH readings.

Here is a graph from https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/co2-concentration-versus-time-the-maths.51423/





Basically you adjust the injection rate (the three coloured lines above) and fiddle with the CO2 loss rate (surface agitation, by angling spray bars) to get the graph above where the line levels out at 30ppm. Does take a while to get it right, too little CO2 and algae can quickly move in, too much CO2 and fish have issues.


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## Zeus. (22 Oct 2018)

Plus the positioning of the intake/output of the filter which affects the flow in the tank. The positioning of the intank diffusor which affects how fast the CO2 bubbles reach the surface


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## Oldguy (22 Oct 2018)

Carpman said:


> just a bought a Ph pen


pH pens/metres typically give problems when they are not looked after. The electrodes need care. Very worthwhile to do an internet search for their general care. I clean mine with 3M HCl to remove biofilm and keep the electrode wet in a saturated solution of KCl. There are other methods that also work. It's worth the effort. Best wishes with your setup.


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## Oldguy (22 Oct 2018)

Oldguy said:


> The electrodes need care


Sorry a correction for my earlier post above. Clean pH membranes with* 0.3 M HCl *not 3M. A saturated solution of KCl is about 4.0 M.


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## dw1305 (22 Oct 2018)

Hi all, 





Oldguy said:


> A saturated solution of KCl is about 4.0 M.


 That is <"what we use">. If you want to make your own it is 74.5g of KCl made up to 250cm3 with RO water.

cheer Darrel


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## Hendre (23 Oct 2018)

Was about to say, 3M would be very strong!


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## Oldguy (23 Oct 2018)

dw1305 said:


> That is <"what we use">.


I must stop re-inventing the wheel. The UKAPS site is packed with good technical info.


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## dw1305 (23 Oct 2018)

Hi all,





Oldguy said:


> I must stop re-inventing the wheel.


No, you are good, it took me a while to find a relevant post, even though I knew there were a number of threads about pH meters, buffering and pH electrodes.

Because you <"can't easily search"> for two, or three letter, terms, none of "pH", "KCl", "4M" are of any use as search terms from within UKAPS. 





Oldguy said:


> The UKAPS site is packed with good technical info.


We are usually quite good with plant related technical stuff, mainly because a number of members have expertise in a variety of different fields (electronics, chemistry, botany etc...), and a lot of members have been long term aquarists (@foxfish came to mind).

It is an advantage we have over a lot of forums ("Apistogramma forums" and "PlanetCatfish" would be exceptions to this that I'm familiar with, and I'm sure there are other forums with accurate information on them), because if something is technically or scientifically wrong, or scientifically dubious, we usually have some-one who will be able to say why it is questionable.

I'm not a particularly good at chemistry, so when I'm not sure about the science I usually ask <"@regani" on  Apistogramma forums">, he is a chemist and very good at understandable explanation.

cheers Darrel


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## Hendre (23 Oct 2018)

Agreed with the above! Some forums have basically chased away more knowledgable members, so it's nice to see a place where we have many experts


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## dw1305 (23 Oct 2018)

Hi all,





Hendre said:


> Some forums have basically chased away more knowledgable members


It is a shame, but on some forums you can't have an educated debate without it rapidly degenerating into a flaming war. 

I'm not quite sure why but "pH", "cycling", "liquid carbon" and the <"role of plants"> in tanks are subject areas which seem to generate particularly entrenched positions.  

cheers Darrel


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## Hendre (23 Oct 2018)

Unfortunately so. I haven't been here long enough to experience the whole forum climate, but those are certainly hot topics. Please tag me in to future discussions of the sort


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