# Struggling a bit - can't work out why



## aaron.c (16 Dec 2015)

Howdy All

I have a Rio 125 High Tech and I am really struggling.  I think I have got everything right, but the plants tell me otherwise.

I am after some ideas of where I might be going wrong and what I should try next.  Please forgive the long post, but want to make sure I get everything in.

*Tank: *Rio 125 (Internal filter removed)
*Lighting: *2 x Grobeam 600 and controller (mounted over tank on TMC brackets) @ 40%.  Currently run from 17:30 to 23:59. With 30 minute ramp up and ramp down.
*Filtration:* JBL Cristal Profi 1501 - Via Spaybar
*CO2*: 2kg FE and Co2 Art Dual Stage Regulator.
*Diffusion*: Up Inline Atomiser
*Top Up: *Topped up with TMC Auto Topup - I did this to keep levels constant for CO2 balance.
*Ferts: *Standard EI, mixed with RO and double dosed (40ml every other day) via Dosing Pump.
*Liquid CO2:* 7ml a day
*Water Changes*: 50% once a week.
*Substrate:* JBL Aqua basis plus, topped of with  JBL Manado.
*Stock:*

10 Panda Cory
4 Ottos
5 Dwarf Neon Rainbows
10 Harlequins
12 Amano Shrimp.
*
So, the problems...

Algae* - Limited to one really, but quite a lot of it.  BBA on tank, on the wood and rock, and some on the slow plants.

*Plants:* The plants are generally struggling.  Lack of growth is the main issue. I am not expert enough to diagnose many particular defficiencies.  That said, some of the new growth is on the yellow side, which I believe could be an iron issue, more on that later.

*CO2:* The spray bars are a menace and require constant attention.  They stay put, but they are forever getting blocked.  I run filter wool in the filter to try and stop stuff getting to the spray bar.  I can clean it completely with pipe cleaner and the next day half of the outlets will be comprimised.  I think this is causing localised unstable CO2.  Additionally, I hate the look of the CO2 bubbles.

The CO2 bubbles are getting to the bottom of the tank and fired to the back and round again. I am not convinced flow is the issue, as you actually see the Manado pelletes being carried accross the substrate sometimes.

CO2 comes on 3 hours before lights hit full power (they have a 30 minute ramp up from 5.30 to 6.00pm).  I am observing a 1ph unit drop.

I can't really inject more CO2 - fish are already at limits.

I have a surface film on the tank a lot of the time.

*What have I tried?*

*More ferts - *treble dose of Micro - didn't really seem to improve anything.   I had a massive shrimp die off over about 2 weeks, and I would not be surprised if this could have been the cause.  These have since been replaced without issue.

*More Light - *Slowly built it up to 60% over several weeks. No improvement.
*Flow - *added a Koralia 900 below spray bar to try and limit affects of blocked spray bar (in case I don't notice it is blocked for a day or so).
*CO2 - *Tried injecting more CO2 and offsetting with more surface agitation.
*Iron -* Adding Seachem Iron to try and solve that deficiency, if that is indeed what it is.
*New Ferts:* Through out the old and ordered new from reputable source (as were previous)

*Anything else?*

*Water:*
Our water is very very soft here.  PH is near 7 but KH and GH are virtually non existent.  To counter this, I have been adding Seachem Alkaline buffer with new water to try and get some buffering capacity.

*Heat:*
The tank runs at about 24c - if the house gets very cold, or after a water change, it has been known to drop to about 22c.  I don't really want to be another heater in there if I can avoid it.

*Pictures:*

*Drop checker in bottom corner of tank.*





*Drop Checker at top corner of tank*




*FTS*






 

Plants












Any help would be greatly appreciated.  Please let me know if you need more information or more pictures.

Thanks
Aaron


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## alto (16 Dec 2015)

How long since tank start up?
(sorry I know I could go back & look for that info but it may help to have everything in one place)


Can you list plants?
Are these the same plants that began the tank?
Have you "lost" any plants?
Are the unplanted areas deliberate?
Have you been trimming & re-planting "tops" of the stem plants?

(I'm just thinking aloud here)


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## aaron.c (16 Dec 2015)

Thanks Alto 

This tank has been set up for almost exactly a year now.

I removed quite a lot of dragon stone in the hope that it would allow the flow to circulate more effectively.  This was 4 months or so ago.

The large areas of empty substrate are where I tried to get Pogostemon helferi to grow.  I have had 15 plants from various sources and they all melted away to nothing.

At present I have;
Alternanthera rosaefolia
Hygrophila polysperma - affected by small leaves.
Riccia fluitans
Anubias Nana
Mosses
Limnophila Aromatica

Afraid I can remember the names of the rest.

I haven't been topping the tops off and replanting, as I haven't really been getting the plants to a state where I think they are healthy enough to do it.  Is that wrong?

Thanks


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## aaron.c (16 Dec 2015)

Forgot to add, most of the plants are fairly new.  The only thing from the 1st set up is the Polysperma

Thanks again


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## alto (16 Dec 2015)

aaron.c said:


> Is that wrong?


Not at all - I was just trying to get a feeling for how much growth you've been seeing


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## dw1305 (16 Dec 2015)

Hi all, 





aaron.c said:


> Our water is very very soft here. PH is near 7 but KH and GH are virtually non existent.


The new leaves look a bit pale. Because they are the new leaves, it is a non-mobile element, so it could be calcium (Ca) deficiency,  if you aren't adding any calcium in your EI mix? Iron deficiency usually occurs in harder water, but iron (Fe) is also non-mobile.

It is unlikely to be a deficiency of nitrogen (N), potassium (K) or magnesium (Mg), because these are all mobile and you are adding EI. 





aaron.c said:


> I tried to get Pogostemon helferi to grow. I have had 15 plants from various sources and they all melted away to nothing.


It didn't like me either, and I assume that it doesn't do well in soft water.  





aaron.c said:


> To counter this, I have been adding Seachem Alkaline buffer with new water to try and get some buffering capacity


 I'm not a great fan of these products, Seachem won't tell you what it is, but I'll tell you it is 95% some very expensive sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3).

To raise dKH you could try a small amount of "oyster shell chick grit", or use the chemicals listed at <"James' Planted Tank: re-mineralising RO"> (dKH calculations at the bottom of page).

cheers Darrel


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## alto (16 Dec 2015)

How long have current plants been in the tank?


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## aaron.c (16 Dec 2015)

alto said:


> How long have current plants been in the tank?


About 3 months.

With the exception of the Aromatica which is about 3 weeks.


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## aaron.c (16 Dec 2015)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, The new leaves look a bit pale. Because they are the new leaves, it is a non-mobile element, so it could be calcium (Ca) deficiency,  if you aren't adding any calcium in your EI mix? Iron deficiency usually occurs in harder water, but iron (Fe) is also non-mobile.
> 
> It is unlikely to be a deficiency of nitrogen (N), potassium (K) or magnesium (Mg), because these are all mobile and you are adding EI. It didn't like me either, and I assume that it doesn't do well in soft water.   I'm not a great fan of these products, Seachem won't tell you what it is, but I'll tell you it is 95% some very expensive sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3).
> 
> ...



Thanks Darrel

I don't add any additional calcium to my EI Mix.

According to United utiltiies - the average calcium value for our tap water here is 8.14 mg Ca/.  The low is 6, and the high is 12.


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## dw1305 (16 Dec 2015)

Hi all,


aaron.c said:


> According to United utiltiies - the average calcium value for our tap water here is 8.14 mg Ca/. The low is 6, and the high is 12.


They are quite low calcium levels (my tap water is about 250 ppm Ca). I'd try adding a small amount of calcium. It won't green the yellow leaves up (it is non-mobile), but new leaves should be much darker green. If you don't want to go down the "chick grit" route, you can food grade "calcium chloride dihydrate" (CaCl.2H2O). 





aaron.c said:


> This tank has been set up for almost exactly a year now. I removed quite a lot of dragon stone in the hope that it would allow the flow to circulate more effectively.


Obvious question then, was the growth better when you still had the Dragon stone in the tank?

cheers Darrel


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## aaron.c (16 Dec 2015)

When the dragon stone was in the tank the only plants I really had were lots and lots of Polysperma to get some bio mass going.

It did grow better, but that is about all that was in there.  I would say I removed  about 60% of the dragon stone.


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## alto (16 Dec 2015)

dw1305 said:


> It didn't like me either, and I assume that it doesn't do well in soft water.


except it does just fine in the local shop display tanks - tap water here is KH 0-1, GH 1-2 - shop does add some Seachem Equilibrium (1tsp/10 gal) weekly or the the Aquavitro equivalent but still water would definitely rate as "soft"
I believe that Pedro Rosa has soft water - I couldn't find it in the linked journal, but think it's mentioned elsewhere (or perhaps by tmiravent)


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## dw1305 (16 Dec 2015)

Hi all, 





alto said:


> except it does just fine in the local shop display tanks - tap water here is KH 0-1, GH 1-2 - shop does add some Seachem Equilibrium (1tsp/10 gal) weekly or the the Aquavitro equivalent but still water would definitely rate as "soft"
> I believe that Pedro Rosa has soft water - I couldn't find it in the linked journal, but think it's mentioned elsewhere (or perhaps by tmiravent)


 OK not the soft water. I didn't try it in harder water, so it could have been light, nutrients, CO2 etc.

cheers Darrel


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## alto (16 Dec 2015)

dw1305 said:


> it could have been light, nutrients, CO2 etc.


my favorite phrase


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## aaron.c (16 Dec 2015)

alto said:


> my favorite phrase


My least favourite 

I mix my EI solutions as per the AquariumPlantFood instructions below;

*Macro Solution*

_Mix, Shake & Leave to Dissolve Overnight:_


4tsp Potassium Nitrate
1tsp Potassium Phosphate
6tsp Magnesium Sulphate
500ml Water
*Micro Solution*

_Mix, Shake & Leave to Dissolve Overnight:_


1tsp Chelated Trace Elements
500ml Water
I tend to mix up 1l batches as I have 1 litre dosing containers.


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## Paul L (16 Dec 2015)

Hi Aaron

How much surface agitation is going on
From the photos it looks like the spray bar is barely breaking the water surface add you mention adding a wave maker to help
What media is in the filter and how much of it?
too much media will really slow down the output flow, and in turn affect how nutrients and Co2 are distributed.

Paul


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## aaron.c (16 Dec 2015)

Hey Paul

There is quite a lot of surface agitation, without breaking or bubbling. See image below.

The Flow is pretty decent, it gets the CO2 bubbles to the bottom of the tank.  Even moves the substrate around.

The bottom layer of the filter is full of ceramic media.
The middle layer has the outer sponges, but the inner has been removed (see here - http://www.jbl.de/images/container/w470_h282/60946.jpg)
The next layer has the middle sponge removed, and one of these in it's place - there is obviously space around the edge - http://cdn.idealo.com/folder/Produc...id/juwel-aquarium-cirax-bioflow-8-0-jumbo.jpg - this is what I used from old filter to get it started.
Top section has one layer of the foam removed (it comes in 2 layers) and a bag of purigen takes up half of the space.

Hard to explain but hopefully that makes sense

Thanks


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## Paul L (16 Dec 2015)

It almost looked like the surface was still in the original pictures and like surface scum, must be my old eyes!
Seems like flow isn't the problem from the latest pics.
sorry, can't suggest anything more than has already been said
Good luck


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## aaron.c (16 Dec 2015)

No worries Paul  All help is appreciated


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## foxfish (16 Dec 2015)

It sounds like your spray bar holes are very small?


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## aaron.c (16 Dec 2015)

They are the standard JBL spray bars. The holes are slightly bigger than a cocktail stick, which is handy, as that is what I unblock them with..... Daily 


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## foxfish (16 Dec 2015)

Maybe consider making up a new one piece full length spray bar ... it seems like you have most things in place but I would expect to see lush plants loaded with oxygen bubbles from your set up!
9 x out 10 the issues revolve around not enough C02 feeding the plants for whatever reason.


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## PARAGUAY (16 Dec 2015)

BBA. Everthing I have gleaned says it is caused by unstable CO2 which questions flow,You could experiment with some new fast growers() stems and trial an error with a small powerhead or small filter.The filtration on your filter the inflow should hit sponges first then biological media then finer sponges/floss in final chamber /s with any media carbon or purigen before going back into aquarium


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## aaron.c (17 Dec 2015)

Hey Paraguay

That is what it does, the water is returned down the side of the filter, through a presponge, and then is pumped from the bottom, up through the media.




 

I think it is fair to say with a faulty UP inline a few months back, there is a high chance I had unstable CO2 which might have led to currect BBA.

I think I will remove dragon stone and treat with Liquid Carbon and put back in, and see if the BBA returns.

Thanks
Aaron


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## aaron.c (17 Dec 2015)

foxfish said:


> Maybe consider making up a new one piece full length spray bar ... it seems like you have most things in place but I would expect to see lush plants loaded with oxygen bubbles from your set up!
> 9 x out 10 the issues revolve around not enough C02 feeding the plants for whatever reason.


Yeah I think I might need to look at a better spray bar option


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## dw1305 (17 Dec 2015)

Hi all,





Looking at that, unless it has fried in Clive's <"photon torpedo"> of light,  I still think that is a deficiency in a non-mobile element.

Do you have any _Anubias_ in more shaded conditions? and if you do, do they have yellow new leaves?

cheers Darrel


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## aaron.c (17 Dec 2015)

Hey Darrel

This plant is at the end of the tank which should get less light as the bars don't extend to the full length of the tank


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## aaron.c (17 Dec 2015)

A question on CO2 - if bubbles are visibly all over the tank, and the CO2 level is such that some fish start to gasp, is it reasonable to conclude that Co2 might not be the issue?

Could it be that some other issue is causing problems with plants, these problems in turn create an ideal environment for BBA to sneak in and thrive?

I can't inject any more CO2.  I guess I could switch to @George Farmer approach and move inline atomiser to the intake of the filter in the hope it better dissolves CO2?


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## Iain Sutherland (17 Dec 2015)

aaron.c said:


> if bubbles are visibly all over the tank, and the CO2 level is such that some fish start to gasp, is it reasonable to conclude that Co2 might not be the issue?


unfortunately not.


aaron.c said:


> Could it be that some other issue is causing problems with plants, these problems in turn create an ideal environment for BBA to sneak in and thrive?


anything is possible until you have an solution 


aaron.c said:


> I can't inject any more CO2. I guess I could switch to @George Farmer approach and move inline atomiser to the intake of the filter in the hope it better dissolves CO2?


sure you can, you might need more surface agitation or shorter running period...

Hey Aaron, a couple of things id suggest...
have a look at your filter, if the filter is working correctly you shouldnt have to clear the spraybar holes daily.  Either dirt is bypassing the floss/ sponge in your filter or the tank needs cleaning better.

Get a eheim surface skimmer.  Surface film is created when plant health isnt great, that same film also buggers around with your co2 concentrations as it cant off gas which will make BBA issues even worse.  Worth looking at ways to mesh the top of it though as they eat shrimp and small fish.  It wont solve your problems but it will definitely help.

I wouldnt say there is any issue with the anubias (aside BBA) new leaves will always be light in colour.

Change the inline atomiser to pre-filter, it can make a surprising difference but be aware it can also cause toxicity to the fish as the concentration rises so do it when your home for the day.

Dont triple dose ferts, it doesnt help.  Majority of tanks ive had issues with (which is most of them)  have seen improvements almost every time by reducing ferts.  I am normally a bit slap dash with just chucking them in though so could just be me.  Unless you see a deficiency issue aside co2 just cut back, the plant mass isnt huge so demand is likely quite low.

Liquid carbon would be worth trying, if you dont see improvement in a few weeks then the injection method isnt the issue, however flow may still be.  Also great for spot dosing the BBA.

The fact all the stems have no bottom leaves suggests that flow isnt great at the lower levels, keep playing with it.  You dont want a washing machine just a nice gentle flow all round.  Too higher flow can actually stop plants accessing the co2 that that you are putting in.

keep plugging away, you'll figure it out sooner or later


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## aaron.c (17 Dec 2015)

Thanks for this great reply Iain.

I did have a surface skimmer on the tank but it broke, so I will look to get a new one, either that, or run an air pump at night?  Got plenty of those kicking about.

I removed most of the dragon stone to try and improve the lower circulation.  Hoping this will help.

I am definitely going to reduce the ferts.

Aaron


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## dw1305 (17 Dec 2015)

Hi all, 





aaron.c said:


> This plant is at the end of the tank which should get less light as the bars don't extend to the full length of the tank


 Looking at the colour of the new leaf that looks pretty conclusive as a nutrient deficiency. 

Because it is new leaf, iron deficiency becomes a distinct possibility. 

I'd try adding some <"FeEDTA"> (other sponsors are available). 

cheers Darrel


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## aaron.c (17 Dec 2015)

I am currently double dosing EI Micros - which I don't really want to do, given that actual plant load is fairly low.

So I will not increase Micros, but I will continue to dose Seachem Flourish Iron.


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## dw1305 (17 Dec 2015)

Hi all, 





Iain Sutherland said:


> I wouldnt say there is any issue with the anubias (aside BBA) new leaves will always be light in colour.


Assuming the colour balance is right on the photo, I don't think they should be that yellow. I don't add CO2, or nutrients regularly to any of the tanks, (all of which contain some _Anubias_ plants) and none of them have really yellow new leaves.

Paler green, but not yellow.

This one is cheating because it has become emersed, I'll try and get some photos tomorrow of submerged new growth. 


 

cheers Darrel


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## aaron.c (17 Dec 2015)

It is pretty yellow from memory, will check when I get home tonight.

The anubias in my shrimp tank (which get's no ferts) is not at all yellow.


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## aaron.c (19 Dec 2015)

Hmm I actually thinks it is more a light green than yellow. I will watch the leaf as it matures and see if it goes green 


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## Chris Jackson (20 Dec 2015)

Hi Aaron, I've had some small BBA issues with my current tank and found that reducing micros helped a lot and also reduced surface film. All tanks are different of course.... 

For the spray bars, that suggests something must be amiss with your filter, mayde a rubber seal out of place or something? Is the tank water crystal clear aside from the micro bubbles? If it is then that should rule out dirt getting through the filter...  which then suggests rapid bacteria film growth in the tubes which to me suggests over fertilisation.

The mega dosers on this forum may want to shoot me down... but reducing ferts reduced the brown slime build up in my clear pipes considerably (weekly cleaning reduced to 2-3 weeks) and I was no where near dosing double EI but I am using nutrient rich ADA Aquasoil

Try no ferts for a week or more and see what happens... if things improve that gives you a clue, but don't go too long or you'll get new problems..


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## aaron.c (20 Dec 2015)

Thanks Chris. I am going lean with my dosing to see what happens  

Then If that doesn't work I am going to try moving the up inline diffuser to the filter inlet pipe.

One change at a time though so hopefully we can say definitively what caused any improvement *fingers crossed 


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## aaron.c (4 Jan 2016)

So, I have reduced trace to half EI dose, has been about 2 weeks.

Surface film is not as troublesome.  I did a few big (80%) water changes to get the levels reset.

I have noticed that the Riccia has really taken off since the levels were reduced.   The polysperma also seems to be growing well.

No change to BBA yet, but early days still.

Next step will be to move the CO2 diffuser to the filter inlet, this is more to get rid of the fizzy pop effect, which I really don't like.

I have uploaded a video of the flow from the JBL Cristalprofi


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## rebel (4 Jan 2016)

That flow looks to be excellent!


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## aaron.c (4 Jan 2016)

That's what I thought. So not sure why co2 is not cutting the mustard 


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## RossMartin (4 Jan 2016)

Just a thought, i have had algae issues so what i did was slow the flow down by partially closing the inlet lever on my e1500. This has meant happier plants at the front but also i have been able to easily achieve a 1ph drop in 50 minutes from CO2 on, also i can get it down to a 1.6 ph drop should i have to...i have no fish.

My plants have reacted positively!


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## aaron.c (4 Jan 2016)

Interesting point RossMartin. The flow is quite turbulent. 


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## foxfish (4 Jan 2016)

Yep, I will go along with that, getting the flow just right, 'fine tuning' can make a world of difference!
Incidentally can any long term members remember that chap who was using 40 x flow in his planted piranha tank!


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## RossMartin (5 Jan 2016)

I remember him! He didn't last long on here!!


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## aaron.c (19 Jan 2016)

Not a huge amount to report.

I am struggling with the witch craft that is balancing CO2.

One minute too high, one minute too low.  Struggling to get 1ph drop without fishing getting noticably stressed and moving to the top of the tank.


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## Chris Jackson (19 Jan 2016)

One thing to remember with the 1ph drop target. This doesn't have to be from the first thing in the morning reading to lights on. It's from tank water measured as rested for 24 hours to a lights on reading. 
If you do not have a lot of surface agitation the over night ph may actually only drop by 0.5 or less so by aiming for another 1 point ph from that you may actually be dropping the ph 1.5 rather than the target 1.0. 

If you cannot get it stable then I suggest more surface agitation as this will stop it rising too far.


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## aaron.c (19 Jan 2016)

I am wondering if my photo period might be a bit short. My lights come on at 17.30 and ramp up until 18.00. It then ramps down at 23.30 and off at 00.00. So the lights are limited to 5 and a half hours at the full intensity 


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## aaron.c (20 Jan 2016)

Hey Chris

Thanks for the reply.

So, I should really be getting a sample of tank water, resting for 24 hours, and then using the PH of this water as my start point.

Then aim for this PH - 1point as my lights on PH value?

Aaron


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## Chris Jackson (20 Jan 2016)

aaron.c said:


> Hey Chris
> 
> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> ...



Yes that's right.


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## aaron.c (20 Jan 2016)

That's interestng Chris - never knew that! Might explain why I can't currently get a PH drop in the right place.

My CO2 currently comes on a full 3 hours before my lights.


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## aaron.c (20 Jan 2016)

Have cleaned the tank today and done my filter maintenance. Decided to check the atomiser, it has only been on since the middle of November.  It was filthy, really filthy.

I think this is because I removed the filter floss from my external to try and eek more flow.

I actually don't think the extra flow was needed now, and it recent weeks I have been running the filter at a lower throughput.  I have added the floss back in and cranked the filter back to 100% flow seems to have remained the same.

I have replaced the atomiser with the new version with interchangable ceramic.  I have 3 of the ceramic inners, so I can rotate these every 4 weeks or so.


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## ted31 (20 Jan 2016)

Why not run the lights at 100% for a few hours as well? Up the photosynthesis


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## aaron.c (20 Jan 2016)

Hey Ted

Afraid the controller doesn't allow that.

I have upped the lights to 80%.  They are quite far from the substrate so I think that light may have been a limiting factor.


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## ted31 (20 Jan 2016)

That was my thought if co2, flow and ferts are optimal.


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## aaron.c (26 Jan 2016)

Hi all

I have just tested KH - bit shocked to find it was 10 mg/l as cac03 - or less than 1 degree, about .5!  So next to no buffering whatsoever. This is no doubt why my poor fish are suffering with the co2 injection. Will it also be causing my plants problems? 


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## aaron.c (26 Jan 2016)

Latest update... I have removed the spray bar. I have put the duck bill on one side and a koralia at the other end of the tank to get a nice circular pattern.

The spray bars didn't extend the whole tank and keeping the water level perfect was a pain


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## aquamania (28 Dec 2016)

Hi did you have any success with this tank in the end?


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## aaron.c (30 Dec 2016)

Only after I got rid of the LED lights have put a 4 bar t5 set in. 

LEDs just didn't work for me. 


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## Soilwork (12 Jan 2017)

Hi Aaron 

How are your plants doing lately? BBA still troublesome?  

I had very similar problems in my new tank when I first started it up.  Cutting back the micros and increasing macros certainly improved things for me. 

Co2 or flow was definitely not the issue in my case.  I used a drop checker all over the tank and spot checked with a calibrated ph meter to confirm.  I know everyone thinks they have good co2 but I really can say 100% that co2 was not the issue.

My symptoms were extreme chlorosis on lower leaves of staurogyne repens.  They were white in large patches.  My Pogostemon erectus just didn't grow at all.  Monte Carlo was browning on the edges and the tank was developing a serious case off BBA.  The surface was like an oil slick and you could see white flecks in it that looked exactly like the white flecks found in my micro mix.  The only plant that seemed ok was the ludwigia repens.

I know that micro toxicity is a hot potato so I'm not going to dig it up all over again but I know that stopping traces for a couple of weeks whilst performing large water changes then
Just throwing a pinch in every couple of days turned things around pretty quickly for me.


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## HiNtZ (27 Jan 2017)

aaron.c said:


> My least favourite
> 
> I mix my EI solutions as per the AquariumPlantFood instructions below;
> 
> ...



I used to do the APF mix and it completely ****** my tank. I'd have good weeks and bad weeks.

What did I do? I dumped the MGSO4 and went with GH Booster instead. Things improved dramatically.

I also do 1.5 tsp of trace to 500ml instead of the 1 tsp APF calls for.


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## aaron.c (27 Jan 2017)

Hey Guys

Plants are doing much better with t5 lights.

I still need to get my EI regimen right. I did have a Dosing Pump, but it was more trouble than it was worth. It was in the way all the time And the macro pump kept failing to pump.

I have started adding gH booster as our tap water is very soft.

BBA is gone - I have 3 SAE that ate it all, and it has not grown back. 



Thanks for the advise 


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## Julian (27 Jan 2017)

I feel bad for not seeing this post originally. I could have told you it was the lights. TMC LED's might look bright, but turns out their total trash in my opinion.


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## RossMartin (27 Jan 2017)

Julian said:


> I feel bad for not seeing this post originally. I could have told you it was the lights. TMC LED's might look bright, but turns out their total trash in my opinion.


Hi Julian,

I've got issues with my tank and algae...GSA i think. I use a TMC 1500 Ultima. Looking to swap the lights out for something else. I'm interested to know why you think the TMC LEDs are trash...think i'm coming to the same conlusion!


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## Julian (27 Jan 2017)

RossMartin said:


> Hi Julian,
> 
> I've got issues with my tank and algae...GSA i think. I use a TMC 1500 Ultima. Looking to swap the lights out for something else. I'm interested to know why you think the TMC LEDs are trash...think i'm coming to the same conlusion!



Well, like you, I struggled to find the balance for a very long time. I bought these lights and started out at 50% - I saw algae, so I figured I needed to turn the lights down. How wrong I was. I spent the next year killing hundreds of pounds worth of plants. Finally, I'd decided to whack them up to 100% to see what would happen. Yes I still had algae but the plants were actually growing this time.

I think it's great that the controller gives you the ability to dim the lights with such accuracy, but if people don't know what they're doing (like me), it can lead them on the wrong path. It's very difficult to diagnose light deficiency as its symptoms are similar to lots of other things. With lighting, my advice to people now is to get plants to the point where they actually grow and not worry about algae so much, then work backwards from there.

Light is a huge, huge part of getting plants to grow properly and I think many underestimate this and focus on other things such as flow, nutrients and CO2. While all are important, my experience has been that you can still have great looking plants, even if your drop checker isn't green by lights on,  even if your ferts aren't perfect, and even if your filter is rated for less than the size of your tank. 

But get the level of light wrong and you do not stand a chance.


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## xim (27 Jan 2017)

Julian said:


> Well, like you, I struggled to find the balance for a very long time. I bought these lights and started out at 50% - I saw algae, so I figured I needed to turn the lights down. How wrong I was. I spent the next year killing hundreds of pounds worth of plants. Finally, I'd decided to whack them up to 100% to see what would happen. Yes I still had algae but the plants were actually growing this time.
> 
> I think it's great that the controller gives you the ability to dim the lights with such accuracy, but if people don't know what they're doing (like me), it can lead them on the wrong path. It's very difficult to diagnose light deficiency as its symptoms are similar to lots of other things. With lighting, my advice to people now is to get plants to the point where they actually grow and not worry about algae so much, then work backwards from there.
> 
> ...



Yes, plants use light to make food. Not enough light = not enough food, no matter how much nutrient you dose.


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## xim (27 Jan 2017)

Someone may raise some successful cases using very low light, like some versions of Mark Evans' tanks. But the brightness we see with our eyes or even PAR values can be misleading. Because our eyes favour wavelength in the green range more than others and PAR favours every photon from 400 to 700 nm "equally".

But plants prefer some wavelengths more than others. It's called PUR (Photosynthetically Useable Radiation). This can explain why some tanks can be successful with very low light. The PAR may be very low, but the PUR may be high enough for plants to survive.


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