# Planting in vitro plants with ADA Amazonia



## Fran (22 Apr 2015)

Hi all, will be starting my new tank shortly and will be using Ada amazonia (normal type). I plan to use in vitro plants due to the cost. Has anyone any experience planting in vitro in this soil. I'm concerned the shorter root structures will not remain anchored. Any advice appreciated.


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## BigTom (22 Apr 2015)

It can be a bit of a fiddle - a good pair of planting tweezers makes a world of difference so definitely invest in a pair if you don't have any already. Wetting the soil will also help a bit. Then just patience!


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## Julian (22 Apr 2015)

I've attempted this recently with ADA substrate. I've had very poor results, but I don't believe it to be because of the substrate. I don't want to think about how much money I've spent trying to get In Vitro HC/Glosso/Hydrocotyle/Rotala to grow.

I feel like I've finally figured out why the plants die after a few weeks and will be attempting a slightly different approach. 

For any In Vitro plant, my experience has been that you cannot just submerge it straight away or the leaves will slowly turn transparent and it will die in a matter of weeks (I'm confident this is not due to lack of CO2 as my DC was almost orange at one point and my LED's were very low, around 15%).

You have to either let the plant float for 4-6 weeks while it adapts, or grow it immersed until root structure is fully established then flood with high CO2.

My new plants are on the way and I'm going to test this theory out by growing them immersed for a month or 2 before flooding.

Keen to hear about your experience also, please keep me up to date!


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## EnderUK (22 Apr 2015)

Pretty much just use invitro plants now as opposite to Julian I find them adapt better to life under water in both high and low tech tanks. I have no problems putting them into normal sand. Okay a few come out here and there but I usually find that with any plant really. Just replant and replant until they stay in.


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## Julian (22 Apr 2015)

Plants are in, hoping this kind of shotgun approach will yield better results...


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## Fran (23 Apr 2015)

Thanks for reply guys. 



Julian said:


> I've attempted this recently with ADA substrate. I've had very poor results, but I don't believe it to be because of the substrate. I don't want to think about how much money I've spent trying to get In Vitro HC/Glosso/Hydrocotyle/Rotala to grow.
> 
> I feel like I've finally figured out why the plants die after a few weeks and will be attempting a slightly different approach.
> 
> ...



I plan of planting heavily at the start (like Julian's shotgun approach) so am hoping the majority will stay rooted. I reckon I'll just keep replanting. I have had success with planting in vitro into gravel before and am just concerned about them anchoring in the amazonia. I read somewhere that the powder yype is better for planting smaller plants but my budget is exhausted and I have just enough to buy the plants really so I think I'll go ahead as planned. Cheers.


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## Julian (23 Apr 2015)

The smaller grain type is easier to plant smaller plants, but it can still be achieved with regular sized grains. Don't worry about it, once they put their roots down, they take a strong hold on the substrate which keeps them anchored.


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## Fran (23 Apr 2015)

Cheers. Feeling less worried about it now.


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## mattyc (23 Apr 2015)

I have just added some vitro glosso to my tank and it has gone wild. For smaller plants you are better using some of the powder type ada soil because of its smaller size the plants stay in it better. I use normal soil as a base and cap it with a bit of the powder. I have used the normal stuff with hc before and it does get hold eventually but be careful not to get too much water flow straight at it until it has had chance to grab hold.


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## Fran (24 Apr 2015)

I was thinking of getting some powder just to cover the area in which I want to place micranthemum monte carlo but as mentioned the budget is exhausted. I might stretch to a 3kg bag if I can arrange a postal delivery when the wife is out


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## Julian (6 May 2015)

Just thought I'd send an update. More bad results from 'in vitro plants', but some new lessons learned. 

Before this attempt, I wrapped the tank in clingfilm leaving a small gap and used a heater in a bowl of water to create humidity, but things got very moldy and the plants died within a week or 2. 

This time I did it without the heater and misted the plants twice a day, however I think the water level was too high - only about 1 cm from the surface. I think this, combined with not enough air exchange  and too much humidity was the problem.

I went from this:



 

To this: (after taking out all of the dead plants)



 

So I'm back to square one again, but at least the other plants have survived and I only need to replace the HC. 

I think the trick is to create humidity without the temperature. I have some cuttings in a sealed container sitting next to my very cold kitchen window, which get hardly any sun, and they are doing just fine.

I've ordered some more which will hopefully turn up today. This time I'm going to drain the tank completely and leave some very large gaps for air exchange. Will let you know how it goes.

If anyone has any other tips that might help, it would be greatly appreciated!


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## EnderUK (6 May 2015)

You really really shouldn't need to plant the carpet plants that heavy, put them in smaller clumps. Haven't done a dry start butI do have propergators which the water level is at the same level as the top soil. I simple put the plants on top of the soil (not  push them in), and let them grow on their own. Slow growing over winter without a heater but they're starting to pick up as the tempature rises, just spray once or twice a day.


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## Fran (6 May 2015)

Julian said:


> Just thought I'd send an update. More bad results from 'in vitro plants', but some new lessons learned.


Thanks for update Julian. Sorry to hear things are not going well but at least most of the plants survived. I see you are using the dry start method. Its a method I know nothing about at the moment but I think I'll carry out some research on it. 

I personally plan to plant all my in vitro plants, flood the tank, turn on the lights and co2 and see how things go. I previously planted pogostemon Helferi and staurogyne repens (in vitro) and they grew very well once I got the co2 flow correct. My previous aquascape only failed as I had a 400 litre tank (my first planted tank) and could not get the co2 flow right with the equipment I had at the time. I hope somebody on here can provide you with some useful advice. Best of luck and please keep us updated. Cheers.


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## tim (6 May 2015)

Julian said:


> If anyone has any other tips that might help, it would be greatly appreciated!


With the few emmersed setups I've had I cling film completely and mist every couple of days no additional heater, usually around 12 hours of t5 lighting, this method has worked well for me. I did have a whole propagator of Monte Carlo melt in the summer, I became distracted and didn't check or mist it for a few days and the heat ruined it very quickly.


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## dw1305 (6 May 2015)

Hi all,





Julian said:


> Before this attempt, I wrapped the tank in clingfilm leaving a small gap and used a heater in a bowl of water to create humidity, but things got very moldy and the plants died within a week or 2.
> 
> This time I did it without the heater and misted the plants twice a day, however I think the water level was too high - only about 1 cm from the surface. I think this, combined with not enough air exchange and too much humidity was the problem.





EnderUK said:


> Pretty much just use _in vitro_ plants now as opposite to Julian I find them adapt better to life under water in both high and low tech tanks. I have no problems putting them into normal sand. Okay a few come out here and there but I usually find that with any plant really. Just replant and replant until they stay in.


I think the problem isn't anything to do with the water level, or humidity. I think the problem is the high level of nutrients in the "ADA Amazonia" substrate itself. This is why "EnderUK" hasn't found a problem with planting into sand.

The mechanism for damage is via osmosis, and the small volume of water in the DSM method would lead to a strong solution of salts in the small volume of water used. Tissue cultured plants would be particularly susceptible to damage because of their very soft growth.  

If you look at what is left of the carpet in the "after" picture that looks very much like "fertiliser burn". (from <http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/TOOLS/TURF/PESTS/abiofert.html>)


 

cheers Darrel


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## Julian (6 May 2015)

Thanks Darrel, that makes a lot of sense. What would be the best course of action here? I've got some more HC on the way and was going to try just placing it on the top of the soil instead of planting them directly into it, mist daily and keep the water level as low as possible.


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## Christos Ioannou (6 May 2015)

The picture of the damaged plants is very similar to what I had in a propagator... 
...after I decided to spray left over EI macro solution directly on the monte carlo!


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## dw1305 (7 May 2015)

Hi all,





Julian said:


> What would be the best course of action here? I've got some more HC on the way and was going to try just placing it on the top of the soil instead of planting them directly into it, mist daily and keep the water level as low as possible.


I'm not sure. The problem is that the water in contact with the Amazonia will have a very high conductivity (the soluble salts will have gone into solution), and it is the salts that cause the "fertiliser burn". 

You could try capping the soil with some sand where the HC is going to go, but even then you may still have problems with fertilizer burn. 

cheers Darrel


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## Julian (7 May 2015)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,I'm not sure. The problem is that the water in contact with the Amazonia will have a very high conductivity (the soluble salts will have gone into solution), and it is the salts that cause the "fertiliser burn".
> 
> You could try capping the soil with some sand where the HC is going to go, but even then you may still have problems with fertilizer burn.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Thanks Darrel. As mentioned, some cuttings of HC that I threw into a Tupperware container with some ADA and a tiny bit of water is doing really well. Logic tells me to try and recreate these successful conditions in my tank so I'll chuck it in and see what happens.


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## dw1305 (7 May 2015)

Hi all,





Julian said:


> As mentioned, some cuttings of HC that I threw into a Tupperware container with some ADA and a tiny bit of water is doing really well. Logic tells me to try and recreate these successful conditions in my tank so I'll chuck it in and see what happens.


 That sounds a plan. 

It may be a humidity issue. f you can keep the humidity really high then the loss of water via the <"transpiration stream"> will be reduced, and this should limit the salt uptake and damage. 

cheers Darrel


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## Julian (7 May 2015)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, That sounds a plan.
> 
> It may be a humidity issue. f you can keep the humidity really high then the loss of water via the <"transpiration stream"> will be reduced, and this should limit the salt uptake and damage.
> 
> cheers Darrel


I just seem to get attacked by a white web-like slime whenever I try to keep things humid...!


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## stu_ (7 May 2015)

If memory serves,Ian Holditch use to have problems growing HC in new ADA soils.Think he came to the conclusion it was due to the ammonia leaching at start up,because retrying after a period of time,it would be successful.
Maybe start a load in propagator,then try again later?


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## Andy Thurston (9 May 2015)

stu_ said:


> If memory serves,Ian Holditch use to have problems growing HC in new ADA soils.Think he came to the conclusion it was due to the ammonia leaching at start up,because retrying after a period of time,it would be successful.
> Maybe start a load in propagator,then try again later?


I've seen quite a few threads where people have failed with hc in ada soils, as Darrel has already said probably fertilizer burn, perhaps flooding and draining the tank regularly to remove excess nutrients will help.
My opinion is ada soils are not really suitable for the DSM because of the excess ferts leeching into the small amount of water in the tank, even in a flooded tank excess ferts can cause problems if you don't keep up with regular water changes


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