# Help, disconbobulated!



## Newbiedoobydo (27 Aug 2015)

Help! My head is spinning with all the different information I've read and I don't know the best way to proceed. I'm hoping someone here can please give me advice in words of one syllable for the terminally thick... Sorry for the looooong post, especialy as it's my first one here (I've copied it over from another forum I'm on as I've had no replies there, but you lot are the experts so I'm hoping for advice)!

I have two comet goldfish from a neighbour who no longer wanted them. They came in a small kiddy tank. I have bought a second hand 160l tank to set up for them, but at the moment they are in a storage tub swimming in about 50l of water, with a filter, some elodea and a tiny amazon sword plant. I am doing an approx 50% dechlorinated water change every day and should have an API Master Test Kit arriving tomorrow. Fish seem lively and happy. I change the water just before I go to bed so that there is max oxygen overnight whilst plants are giving out C02.

I live in Manchester so have very soft water. I understand pH (logarithmic scale, measure of H+ ions in the water, the more H the more acidic). I also understand that hard water is usually alkaline and soft water usually acidic. I have test strips which are pretty useless but seem to indicate pH around 7 and low KH and GH.

I will have a bunch of plants arriving tomorrow (from Aquatic Gardens). I have also bought some moler clay bonsai soil to use as a substrate because I think gravel will weigh too much for the tank support I have. I have just put some of the clay and dechorinated water into the kiddy fishtank to act as a holding tank for the plants. It's cloudy but that will settle. My problem is that I tested it and the KH has reduced to nothing. I don't really understand KH but I know it is important to buffer and keep the pH stable. I read on here somewhere that the way to get the KH back up again is to do large water changes every day for three-four weeks!! Herein lies a problem - I'm only 4ft 8 and not very strong, and it is going to take me all my time to do normal weekly 10-20% water changes in the big tank. (I'm looking for an aqua roller and small pump but my finances have been killed and that will have to wait).

I just don't know how to proceed. Should I put the clay and plants and 150l of dechlorinated water plus liquid aquarium fertiliser in the tank, let it settle, then start adding ammonia and let the tank cycle? What will happen with the KH? Can I correct the KH by adding something to the water? My understanding is that the clay adds nothing and that minerals get into the tank via the tap water if ornaments etc are inert. I have a plastic aquarium rock cave and two very small pieces of bogwood (currently soaking in old tank water) to put in there too.

Please can someone more experienced give me some advice on this? I am so frustrated by reading all the terminology and not being able to apply it! It seems so complicated compared to all the other pets (rats, hamsters, rabbit, chickens, cats, dogs) I've had! Thank you.


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## Newbiedoobydo (27 Aug 2015)

Sorry to post and run, but it's bedtime. I'll check back tomorrow and keep my fingers crossed that a knowledgeable person has wandered by!


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## alto (27 Aug 2015)

some basic information on comet goldfish ... it's great that you've rescued these fish but they really are best suited as pond fish, fed appropriately, they should hit 6-8 inches rather quickly.
Further, most gold fish will very happily eat most plants so unless the shop sold you goldfish unfriendly plants, I'd be surprised if you can establish a planted tank with gold fish (there is the odd success story but the ones I recall, are keeping fancy goldfish rather than comets).

As for substrate contribution to overall tank weight, a 160 litre tank will hold 160kg water + tank weight ... if you're concerned that an additional 20kg of substrate is beyond the capability of your tank stand, I'd worry about it holding up to the tank weight over the long term - can you describe the specifics of your setup? someone may have suggestions as to improving support stability.
Note that substrate displaces water volume, so when you add 20kg of substrate, you'll be reducing the water weight (not 1:1, but a significant percentage depending on substrate density vs water density). 

For easy water changes look at systems such as the Python - you can drain the tank to your garden (or the loo), then refill direct from the tap to your tank - you do need to use food safe hose, & add sufficient dechlorinator for the entire tank volume (rather than just the change water volume -  this is where Seachem's Prime works well, as 1 ml treats up to 40l)

If you search on here, you'll find some tanks where similar clay substrates are used ... I'm envisioning the comets happily sifting through the substrate  

You don't mention your tap KH/GH levels, as the clay "saturates" you may see less effect on KH ie it should stabilize; you can add KH/GH booster (aquarium products, look at pond version as they are generally more concentrated) which is generally mixed to provide a given pH.
You can try adding oyster grit to your filter, or some marine substrate (aragonite)/African cichlid substrate etc to your tank - these will usually lead towards a more alkaline pH than the KH/GH boosters made for community tanks, but this effect is offset by your acidic tap water & regular water changes.
You can try adding baking soda (again be careful of the source) to increase KH, begin with ~1tsp/40litre, again note that baking soda has a pH ~8.3 so add small amounts gradually to limit pH swings.

You might list the plants you've ordered, some will hold better in an "emerse" rather than "submerse" environment.
You might list tank details re lighting, CO2, fertlizers, flow (filter), etc

You don't need to add ammonia to get the tank cycling (it's very easy to create ammonia & nitrite levels that inhibit the bacteria you're trying to encourage) - you can add fish food (as if you're feeding your gold fish in this tank), adding the water you're removing from your comet holding pool may also act as a "starter" culture for the new tank.
In general the sort of filter bacteria responsible for the "nitrogen cycle" are not free floating in the water column (they are "sticky" bacteria & attach to various surfaces - not to be confused with the "biofilm   bacteria" which form in most tanks) so filter sponge/material from an established tank is your best source of suitable bacteria when speeding up this process; again this is most efficient if you place this established filter material on the "up" side of the filter flow direction (so bacteria are encourage to migrate into your new filter material).


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## matt (27 Aug 2015)

Hi
First off I can't help with your water chemistry dilemma because it confuses me too, all I know is my water is very hard. I do know however that hobby test kits are useless
so send it back asap and get a refund. Also try not to get too hung up on all your water parameters or trying to adjust them as can add to problems later on, work with what you already have.
I have goldfish in one of my tanks and have found I'm limited to what plants I can keep with them without them either eating them or digging them up, also my tank is unheated which further limites plant choice. Stem plants are a no go they just won't last with goldfish, you want hardy easy care plants like Anubis, thats all I have in my tank at the moment tho I'm planing on adding some bulb plants in the near future.

Like alto said, it would really help to know what light setup your planing on using, co2 or non co2, filter choice, I have 4 gold fish in one tank and they produce a lot of waste
and need good filtration, I have 2 external filters both rated to 300l tank size each, my tank holds around 130-150 ish liters at a guess and still need 30% weekly water changes
and I don't use co2 or add ferts.

Good luck, keep us updated to how your getting on


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## Newbiedoobydo (27 Aug 2015)

Hello Alto and Matt, thank you for replying. I will try and give more info later about lighting, water parameters etc. The plants are a cold-water collection.

The fish are lovely-looking but I suspect they are stunted, as they are at least five years old and have spent their lives in tiny tanks, including an horrifically small 'petpals' thing. I don't expect them to grow to their full size because of this, but if they do, I will either rehome them or get some kind of raised pond (off ebay because no way could I affor new!). At the moment thier bodies are only about 3 inches long and I'm not sure they would survive in a pond if rehomed now.

They've only ever had plastic plants and the odd bit of elodea. They haven't touched the amazon sword or elodea they have at the moment. Perhaps if they get in a tank with a more 'natural' environment they will develop the taste for greenery (they spat out the bits of pea I gave them) so I might have to cross that bridge later!

The tank 'stand' is a solid pine sideboard. It's a properly built thing, not a cheapy catalogue flimsy affair. So I might keep the bonsai soil for a later tank (I would love to have a betta fish at a later date) and go with gravel after all. Or maybe buy a small amount of 'plantable' substrate and just put that in the areas I plant up.

I've made so many mistakes already! At least the poor fish seem to be OK with their daily water changes - I'm adding 'Filter  Aid' after every change to try and get the little filter they have at the moment colonised. Only feeding a small pinch of pellets every day shortly before changing the water, leaving the water to stand to come up to ambient temp etc.


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## ian_m (27 Aug 2015)

Unfortunately goldfish (in general) are bigger poo'ers and plant eaters.

See this blog about one way to solve poo issue, but not solved plant easting issue.
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/auto-cleaning-goldfish-tank-experiment-in-progress.17348/


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## alto (27 Aug 2015)

Newbiedoobydo said:


> *I've made so many mistakes already*! At least the poor fish seem to be OK with their daily water changes - I'm adding 'Filter Aid' after every change to try and get the little filter they have at the moment colonised. Only feeding a small pinch of pellets every day shortly before changing the water, leaving the water to stand to come up to ambient temp etc.



Not sure I agree on this one! sounds as if you've done very well by these fish  
I've no idea what the "Filter Aid" is - google takes me to Interpet's flocculating product ... there are various products that claim to assist with bacteria colonization, most "work" to some degree (though many work not as claimed ), most are unlikely to have any negative impact (except to your pocketbook).
Again I'll recommend Seachem's Prime which can be added at higher doses to help protect against ammonia & nitrites (Prime's formulation includes "binding" compounds, you can likely find more information on this in the Prime FAQ & Seachem's forum).
At any rate, if the fish are active & curious, they are the best indicator of your success.

I'm not sure what you mean by "a pinch" - goldfish are not tropical fish, you don't want to feed too lightly, especially if these fish are as stunted as you believe (it's possible they are also a fancy/comet hybrid, so still stunted but hopefully less so) they may have less efficient digestive systems. You might feed an hour or so before water change (re "voiding" time), also you can use a "turkey baster" to suck up visible waste in between water changes.
It's fine to add cooler water (it will have more dissolved oxygen), eg, if tank is at 20C, change water can be ~16C, even with a 50% water change, overall tank temp will only drop a couple degrees.
Make sure your filter provides good surface agitation as this will improve oxygen levels in tank water.
When you have the tank set up & performing 20% water changes, you may be able to just use tap "cold" - fish are always a good indicator of your water change methods.

The tank stand sounds excellent.

Don't give up on the moler clay just yet - if you do a forum search for "moler", there is a good bit of information on it's use.

Don't forget to list the plants you've ordered 

For plantable substrate, you might want to use harder materials such as EcoComplete rather than the "soils" such as ADA, Tropica etc unless you cap them with another product (such as EC - I mention EC as it's edges are quite rounded compared to Flourite) but then they also work more effectively in conjunction with some product such as Tropica Growth Substrate ... watch the Tropica videos for various "gravels" which they use in their tanks.  Also be aware of the KH lowering aspect of most "plantable" substrates.

You might also use "pots" to hold some of your plants - Green Pekoe Pond has excellent photos, as do a few other journals (some have used those plastic containers you find in kitchen/bath shops that suction to  glass etc).


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## Newbiedoobydo (27 Aug 2015)

Thank you Alto. Those pots are a great idea. I can see this getting addictive - although perhaps not with the goldfish tank because I don't want it to be too heavily planted, just enough vegetation for the fish to swish through as their natural habitat wouldn't be underwater jungle! The 'filter aid' is by King British and is friendly bacteria. I have some Seachem Prime on order and it should be delivered soon.

I have spent part of the evening rinsing moler clay. I folded an old net curtain in the bath and put the clay in a salad spinner as that would contain the clay and let the water through. Then I ran the shower over it. Initially it looked like someone was being murdered with the red water looking like blood but it ran pretty clear after a while. So it is now in the 'tester' tank with dechlorinated water and I will see how clear it is in the morning. If the pH is OK I will start setting the big tank up. I'd read about putting osmocote underneath, but I'd be worried that the fish would sift through and eat it, so the plants will have to make do with fish poo fertilizer and liquid fertilizer or root tabs! 

The plants are:

 Moss Ball Chladophlora (this has gone into the tub the fish are currently in. They have completely ignored it...)
 Echinodorus 'Rose'
1 x pot of Bacopa Monnieri/CaroLiniana
1 x pot of Java Fern - random species
1 x bunch of Vallisneria Twisted
1 x pot/bunch of Sagittaria Subulata
1 x pot of Echinodorus Tenellus

from Aquarium Gardens. I'll also have the elodea and the Amazon Sword. The plants look very healthy. I've opened the bags they came in, stood them upright, and filled them up to the top of root level with old tank water until I can get them into the big tank. Will they be OK like that? I could pop them into a few vases if they need to be completely submerged - although not the Echinodorus 'Rose' as that is very tall ... I hope it flops a bit once it's under water!

I'm not planning on using CO2, I can't afford to go high-tec especially not on such a big tank. The filters that came with the tank are Marina Power Filter S20 external filters. I have no idea of the flow rate but on the box it says that it will filter 20 US Gallons, which is just over 75 litres. So the two filters should do my 160l tank as I won't be filling it to the brim! Each filter came with 2 carbon cartridges and 2 'bio-clear' cartidges which contain zeolite. Apparently this removes ammonia, so how will I get the tank to cycle? Also will the carbon cartridge take the liquid fertilizers out of the water? I read somewhere that it is possible to put ceramic media and sponge in the slots instead of Marina's own filters - should I do this rather than use the ones supplied?

The blurb on the canopy instructions says that there are 2 30W fluorescent tubes. I've switched it on briefly and one tube had a yellow tint to it and the other seemed blue-ish. It works out at 1.5W/gallon. I'm assuming that as the tank came with the filters and lights already 'in the box' (it was a 2nd-hand one from gumtree but was originally a 'package deal') that this will at least provide a minimum level of light and filtration for the plants and fish?

Sorry to ask so many questions but I am a complete newbie to fishkeeping. I want to do the best I can for these fish, poor things. Partly because I killed so many goldfish when I was a child - back in the 70's we had no idea about the inadequacy of goldfish bowls and the need for dechlorinated water and filtration .


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## Newbiedoobydo (27 Aug 2015)

matt said:


> Hi
> 
> Like alto said, it would really help to know what light setup your planing on using, co2 or non co2, filter choice, I have 4 gold fish in one tank and they produce a lot of waste
> and need good filtration, I have 2 external filters both rated to 300l tank size each, my tank holds around 130-150 ish liters at a guess and still need 30% weekly water changes
> ...



Just re-read this, Matt. Looks like I will have to keep a very careful eye on how the supplied filters do since yours are 4x more powerful than mine - although I'll only have the two fish. 

There is just so much to learn!


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## alto (28 Aug 2015)

Newbiedoobydo said:


> from Aquarium Gardens. I'll also have the elodea and the Amazon Sword. The plants look very healthy. *I've opened the bags they came in, stood them upright, and filled them up to the top of root level with old tank wate*r until I can get them into the big tank. Will they be OK like that? I could pop them into a few vases if they need to be completely submerged - although not the Echinodorus 'Rose' as that is very tall ... I hope it flops a bit once it's under water!



You need to maintain humidity so spray the leaves with (tap) water & keep the bags mostly closed, try to set up this sort of propagator
(again if you do a search for "propagator" or "DSM" (dry start method) you should get a load of threads)

- more comments tomorrow but just wanted to get this point out


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## Newbiedoobydo (28 Aug 2015)

Thank you, have done that!

Realised that the filter is where the ammonia needs to be for the bacteria to colonise, so i will set up with the bioclear filters first and read more about the carbon stuff later.


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## matt (28 Aug 2015)

Newbiedoobydo said:


> The blurb on the canopy instructions says that there are 2 30W fluorescent tubes. I've switched it on briefly and one tube had a yellow tint to it and the other seemed blue-ish. It works out at 1.5W/gallon. I'm assuming that as the tank came with the filters and lights already 'in the box' (it was a 2nd-hand one from gumtree but was originally a 'package deal') that this will at least provide a minimum level of light and filtration for the plants and fish?



60W and 1.5W/gallon is far too much light for a low tech especially under a hood, can you remove a tube and see if it works with just one?


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## zozo (29 Aug 2015)

Remind they are real diggers, love to plough the substrate  best substrate is small rounded gravel, at least an area of the tank could trigger them to dig only there. I think it's best to cover the clay area with larger river pebbles also around the plants. Or else they could dig all plants out.. Gravel also is easier to clean, clay might become a big mess if they start diggin in that.  Rather make a better aquarium stand then have them distroying everything in the tank. You could buy this round terracota rings you'll find sometimes in plant pots of aqautic plants to prevent them from floating. This to keep  'm down and not come up by their diggin.

Further goldfish aren't so fuzzy  about temperatur they take anything between 5 and 30 degrees celcius very well, tho long term 30 degrees is a but to much of course but over summer time these temps are not uncommon. Goldfish do not mind it,under 5 degrees is also not realy healthy for them. As said they are great waist producers, this will up your PH anyway, starting with 7 after a water change depending on the size of the tank can easily rise to 8,5 with in a week.

They eat virtualy anything and actualy they do not need so much food they love to eat elodea, they love fresh garlic, pea mesh and other vegitarian food supply. Don't feed them to much flakes or pellets this will only make the water even more dirty in shorter period. Actualy goldfish are easier over fed then under fed..  Those comet tails tend to turn white after a few years, this is not a problem but actualy more natural, unnatural is feeding them with special food to keep to colour up. The special food to keep the color up is trend and has nothing to do with health. So if you don't  mind tehm changing color the better for them.. 

They are lovely fish and in time they get to now you and love to come and play with you if you maintain there habitat. They come and bump into your hands and challenge you to touch them back. They even don't mind if you take them in your hand, they seem to like the attantion you give them.. They are more pets then just fish in a tank. Realy lovable fish, start with hand feeding them and you'll be friends very soon..  They can even learn tricks if you want them to.

Oh and btw, they create a real family bond among eachother over the years, if you take 'm apart and place them alone they can get sick and die of sadness.


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## Newbiedoobydo (30 Aug 2015)

I am celebrating  because the fish have eaten the peas I gave them . The first time I tried, they spat them out, but now I've had them for a fortnight and they are more settled.

Matt I think I can remove the starter motors for the fluorescent tubes so will give that a go. I have half-filled the tank so far and stuck two-thirds of the plants I ordered in. Had a few problems getting some of them to stay down and not float, but managed in the end. The rest of the plants I will put in the tiny tank to grow on in there. I don't want a densely planted tank because the fish need to be able to zoom up and down a bit. I actually think Bopp is growing a bit now that they are in better conditions, albeit only 50l of water in a storage tub!

I am planning to run one of the filters overnight with a carbon sachet in to try and clear the dust/sediment that is floating in the water. Then I will set up both filters with ceramic media and start to cycle the tank. I will try and post some photos tomorrow or Tuesday. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that everything turns out OK and I can put the fish in there in a couple of weeks' time.


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## Newbiedoobydo (30 Aug 2015)

Zozo they have been watching me fill up their big tank. They like to see what's going on and are so nosey!


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## zozo (30 Aug 2015)

Newbiedoobydo said:


> Zozo they have been watching me fill up their big tank. They like to see what's going on and are so nosey!



They are the loveliest and most playfull fish i ever had... These are already quite some years whit me.. In the summer they go out in the garden and winter they come inside the house.  Don't even need a net  to take 'm out.  This year i would like to try to make a nice exiting iwagumi aquascape for them in the bathroom. Not in the tub of course. 


Good luck with them, can't wait to see them.. Hope you post it..


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## Newbiedoobydo (1 Sep 2015)

They look very lively!
I can't work out how to post a photo so I can't show you the tank set up .


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## zozo (1 Sep 2015)

Newbiedoobydo said:


> They look very lively!
> I can't work out how to post a photo so I can't show you the tank set up .


Try http://imgur.com/ it's free image hosting.. when done uploading you'll see the uploaded image, at the right of it you'll see all options with taggings. Copy the adress under 
*                     BBCode (message boards & forums)* 
looking like 

 and paste that complete adress in your reply..


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## Newbiedoobydo (1 Sep 2015)

OK... thank you... I'll give it a go!

This is what they arrived in:





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This is what they're in now:



The orange one is Bopp and the pale on is Halley

And this is what they should be going into when it's cycled... Obviously the plants need time to grow too.





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## Newbiedoobydo (1 Sep 2015)

No idea why only one has worked, sorry! I'll try again later but need to get off the computer now!


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## zozo (1 Sep 2015)

first



 

last


 


Looks good..


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## Newbiedoobydo (1 Sep 2015)

Thank you!


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