# Discussion on substrate and fertilization



## Jaap (4 Oct 2013)

Hello,

I have stumbled upon this thread and in my understanding I think the quote in the initial post is correct but the rest of the members deem it to be incorrect.

Newbie here - Question about high CEC substrate and water column dosing - PPS Analysis and Feedback - Aquatic Plant Central

What do you people think about the quote and would you agree with what they are saying about EI/PPS vs ADA system?

Thanks


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## Tim Harrison (4 Oct 2013)

I think that plants can be grown in inert substances providing the water column is dosed. However, there are many synergistic benefits to also using a good substrate as described in some of the responses you linked, especially one with a high CEC.

In terms of providing nutrients alone, they will attract and bind inorganic nutrients added to the water column and thus be available for root uptake. The high CEC and nutrient content of soil substrates, for instance, can act as a safety net buffering against the occasional missed nutrient dose. This discussion may be of help The Soil Substrate Planted Tank - A How to Guide | Page 2 | UK Aquatic Plant Society. The upshot is - both is often best.


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## mal blackburn (8 Oct 2013)

Troi said:


> The high CEC and nutrient content of soil substrates, for instance, can act as a safety net buffering against the occasional missed nutrient dose.


 
I believe that that statement is slightly incorrect and misleading. A substrate with a high CEC and is nutrient rich is what it is and most plants will feed from here as well as the water column. CEC is the ability of a particular material that has the ability to soak up and release nutrients taken from its surroundings, so a substrate material with a "high" CEC is a bonus. 

Depending on the type of plants you choose and want to grow will determine the type of substrate (or no substrate) and fertilization you will need. "Quote" You could also consider the type of substrate (or no substrate) you want then consider the type of plant that will be best suited for your choice. These choices are also dependent on what type of fish you have or would like to keep. Boisterous and large fish would undoubtedly demolish a beautifully planted tank. Hope that helps.


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## Tim Harrison (8 Oct 2013)

mal, I'm not entirely sure what you mean, could you perhaps explain a little further...do you perhaps think that statement a little tautological? Meanwhile, this is as good an explanation as any of Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC), and fairly accessable  Cation-exchange capacity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## mal blackburn (17 Oct 2013)

Sorry Troi. Maybe a little tautological, yes. It was in response mainly to why Jaap also believed in the original post. I was saying that it depends on the plant you want to keep. Most aquatic plants do require a nutrient rich substrate and the substrate to be of a certain grade particle so that the plant can anchor itself to the substrate by means of root growth and also uptake nutrients available from the substrate and the water column promoting good plant health. Then you have the non dependent substrate plants that feed from the water column. I believe the key point here is "good plant health and growth". And this does not take into account lighting and co2.


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## foxfish (17 Oct 2013)

Hmm interesting, you say most plants require a nutrient rich substrate!
Maybe, enjoy or prefer but, surely nor require?


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## ceg4048 (17 Oct 2013)

Exactly. I've never met a plant that requires a rich substrate. Which plants are you thinking about?
I've grown all manner of plants in nothing more than sand or LFS gravel or inert clay.
Plants need to be fed, there is little doubt of that, but there are no plants that can only feed from the sediment.

Grade also does not matter.

Cheers,


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## roadmaster (18 Oct 2013)

I think you can provide an enhanced substrate that will benefit the plant's ,but I too have grown them in nothing but plain sand,gravel.
Me think's with enhanced substrate, along with water column dosing,Is win/win for plant''s.
Was laughed at on other forum's, where water column dosing with mineral salt's was viewed with same reverance as a turd in the punch bowl.
Plant's do better for me...with nutrient's available in both the substrate,and the water column.


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## mal blackburn (19 Oct 2013)

So i am now led to believe i can put myself a beautiful "Dutch" style tank together with nothing more than local quarry gravel as long as i feed the water column. LOL


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## George Farmer (19 Oct 2013)

mal blackburn said:


> So i am now led to believe i can put myself a beautiful "Dutch" style tank together with nothing more than local quarry gravel as long as i feed the water column. LOL


Yes. Providing other growing conditions are met. 

This aquascape is plain quartz gravel.  


iwagumi2 by George Farmer, on Flickr

Specialist substrates certainly help, but they're not necessary. Appropriate light, CO2 and other nutrient dosing and delivery, and maintenance are far more important IME.


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## foxfish (19 Oct 2013)

Plain sand ....


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## foxfish (19 Oct 2013)

Cat litter ...


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## mal blackburn (19 Oct 2013)

ceg4048 said:


> Exactly. I've never met a plant that requires a rich substrate. Which plants are you thinking about?
> I've grown all manner of plants in nothing more than sand or LFS gravel or inert clay.
> Plants need to be fed, there is little doubt of that, but there are no plants that can only feed from the sediment.
> 
> ...


 

Rubbish Quote or what ?

I will profess I am not an expert in any manner of aquatic plant cultivation.

I too have HAD plants grow in sand but did not do very well as maybe could have. I fed with liquid fertilizer once a week. I cannot see Crypts liking to grow in gravel very well either. Try anchoring hair grass type plants in gravel too. LOL. So it seems to me that grade (particle grade that is) does matter. 

So then we add JBL balls or root tabs to enhance the substrate for nutrient up take by the roots. Ah now we have a nutrient rich substrate now that will accommodate most plant types. 

I think that what stirred me is why Jaap  put forward the question to the forum members what we think about the "original post" stating plants dont require a nutrient rich substrate but take their nutrients from the water column solely. And also what we think about water column dosing at the same time. 

My point I am trying to get across is I would EXPECT to believe that most/many plants will require a nutrient rich substrate and regular fertalisers for any kind of decent growth. My Aponogeton Crispus being bought back from an almost dead state has now a flower stem that is at least 12" high. 

Roadmasters comments exactly...........


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## mal blackburn (19 Oct 2013)

Ok. I do stand corrected in what i have just posted.....


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## mal blackburn (19 Oct 2013)

But will leave it there to show how wrong i may have been in judgement about growing decent plants.


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## Jaap (19 Oct 2013)

You guys say that grade does not matter. Please make things clear fir me on the subject of aerobic and anaerobic bacteria in the substrate. I have read this before in other posts about how sand compacts itself and doesn't allow water circulation thus delivering less nutrients to roots and no oxygen for aerobic bacteria. Obviously I understand no nutrients are required to be delivered to the roots since they can be delivered through water column but what about bacteria? Is there any truth in that?

Thanks!


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## foxfish (19 Oct 2013)

Hi Mal, it is obviously possible to grow plants very successfully with a basic inert substrate as long as there is sufficient fertiliser in the water column but that does not mean it is the best way & I am sure that the majority of us like to use some form of substrate nourishment.

I made a log tank where the plants were just held in place with a little gravel & their roots were allowed to feed directly from the water.. a bit like underwater hydroponics!
Substrate like cat litter will allow water column ferts to penetrate in the grains & feed the roots too.


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## mal blackburn (19 Oct 2013)

So why the need for commercially produced and designed substrates ???


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## BigTom (19 Oct 2013)

mal blackburn said:


> So why the need for commercially produced and designed substrates ???



Aesthetics, ease of working with, probably some benefits to plants, and to make money for the companies that make them (who will also tell you that you need jiggawatts of light, secret fert recipes in posh bottles and a thousand different chemicals).


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## mal blackburn (19 Oct 2013)

So why use ADA or any other substrate product when cat litter or sand would suffice ??? Do these commercially designed products offer better plant health and growth ???


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## BigTom (19 Oct 2013)

mal blackburn said:


> So why use ADA or any other substrate product when cat litter or sand would suffice ??? Do these commercially designed products offer better plant health and growth ???



There's no doubt that ADA and other Gucci soils are excellent substrates - nice to work with, easy to reuse, nutritious with a high CEC - but there are plenty of people also getting excellent results for a fraction of the cost with cat litter, garden soil and plain old inert sand /gravel, which should instantly demonstrate that they're not essential.


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## George Farmer (19 Oct 2013)

I like to use both active soil (ADA Aqua Soil, TMC nutraSoil etc.) and water column nutrients. This ensures the plants are always well-fed, and if I miss the occasional liquid dose, it does not matter.  For epiphytic plants water column nutrients is important too, especially in higher-energy systems.

Also the soils have other benefits, as well as nutrients and those listed by Tom's excellent post.

Many buffer the pH at 5.5 - 6.5 and soften the water, making the aquarium more suited to delicate softwater species.  A great example is crystal red shrimp.  Before active soils were commonplace, keeping these shrimp was relatively difficult.  Even those with hard tap water are keeping delicate shrimp now.

I have set up around 50-100 aquascapes, some using inert gravel/sand, some using base layer nutrients topped with inert, some using active soils.  

Anecdotally I can say that the aquascapes with active soils have experience healthier and faster plant growth than the inert.  The nutrient base layer somewhere in-between.  

So if I can afford it, and the aquascape suits it, I will try to use active soil substrates as much as possible.  I know I don't _need_ it, but I believe I get better results with it, for both plants, shrimp and most fish. 

But it is important to stress that these substrates will never negate the requirement for decent maintenance practice.  That, in my experience, is the fundamental key to any successful aquascape providing the kit and the technique are fine.


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## mal blackburn (19 Oct 2013)

Looking at the pictures shown are very nice indeed and show that plants dont require an active substrate to grow but as George states that plants do better if the substrate is active. What I would like to know is how well would an aquascape in cat litter or quartz gravel fed by means of EI or PPS compare over a long time period of years not months up against an aquascape or planted tank raised either the ADA way or by means of any other decent substrate commercially available ?  Would they both stand the test of time ?


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## ceg4048 (19 Oct 2013)

How much time are we talking about?

Here is EI + LFS gravel mixed with molar clay. Is 2 years enough time?





Here's a tank at 3.5 years.





Get over it people. Sediment doesn't matter.

Cheers,


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## Michael W (19 Oct 2013)

I agree that sediment does not matter. If you want to get the same affect as ADA etc can't you just soak some cat litter in a bucket of water with a EI/nutrient enriched water? Ok granted it won't have the ph changing and buffing properties but don't people usually use these substrate in order to provide another source of nutrients for plants? This can basically also be created with DIY root tabs or store brought ones inserted into any substrate even better if its cat litter correct me if I'm wrong.


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## foxfish (19 Oct 2013)

Its a hobby,  you can do whatever you like


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## Michael W (19 Oct 2013)

And along came foxfish with the killer comment to end all lol 

Yeah, at the end of the day its all down to personal preference and experience with using certain substrates etc etc.


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (19 Oct 2013)

mal blackburn said:


> So why use ADA or any other substrate product when cat litter or sand would suffice ??? Do these commercially designed products offer better plant health and growth ???


 
Im sure Big Tom just answered this?

Its all a money making game, supply and demand, Fanboys. Call it what you must.
They will have some benefits, but you could make do without, if you choose to. Its a choice. Like Sausages or Bacon.


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## dw1305 (20 Oct 2013)

Hi all, 





George Farmer said:


> Many buffer the pH at 5.5 - 6.5 and soften the water, making the aquarium more suited to delicate softwater species.


 In terms of water softening think you can make your own "active substrate". I've never tried it but I'm pretty sure you can, and this is how.

Active substrates can lower pH, because they have a high CEC and the initial exchange sites are filled with a proton (H+ ion), this is described as having a "low base percent saturation". Ion exchange means that H+ ions are swapped for other cations, including the basic cations Ca++, K+, Mg++ etc with exchange occurring dependent upon the relative abundance of ions and place on the lyotropic series - <Cation Exchange Capacity in Soils, Simplified>.  We use pH as a proxy for acidity and alkalinity, and it is the ratio of H+:OH- ions. Add H+ ions and pH falls, another way to think of this is that acids are "proton donors", and bases "proton acceptors".

Clay minerals from areas of high rain-fall with acid soils naturally have all their CE sites filled with H+ ions, because all the other ions have been exchanged for H+ ions (from the rain-water), this is the "Akadama" or laterite scenario, where only the very tightly bound Al+++ and Fe+++ ions are left. The same applies to sphagnum peat, which also has CEC, all the exchange sites are filled with protons, in this case because sphagnum peat only forms in rain fed mires.. 

So to make your own active substrate that combines a low base percent saturation with a high CEC, you can take a substance like Tesco's moler based clay cat litter, and leave it out in the rain for several months and the exchange sites will have all the basic cations replaced by H+ ions.You could add sphagnum peat if you wish.

You might be able to speed the process up by using a stronger acid than rain water (really dilute carbonic acid H2O +CO2 ~ H2CO3), but you would have to take the anion into account, meaning that either acetic acid (CH3COOH) in solution as "white vinegar" or a solution of citric acid ( C6H8O7) might be better than hydrochloric acid HCl (H+ Cl-), although you wouldn't need very much HCl.

cheers Darrel


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## NatureBoy (20 Oct 2013)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, In terms of water softening think you can make your own "active substrate". I've never tried it but I'm pretty sure you can, and this is how.
> 
> Active substrates can lower pH, because they have a high CEC and the initial exchange sites are filled with a proton (H+ ion), this is described as having a "low base percent saturation". Ion exchange means that H+ ions are swapped for other cations, including the basic cations Ca++, K+, Mg++ etc with exchange occurring dependent upon the relative abundance of ions and place on the lyotropic series - <Cation Exchange Capacity in Soils, Simplified>. We use pH as a proxy for acidity and alkalinity, and it is the ratio of H+:OH- ions. Add H+ ions and pH falls, another way to think of this is that acids are "proton donors", and bases "proton acceptors".
> 
> ...


 

Hi

Overtime does an active substrate generally lose its CEC as the sites are filled with the basic cations or does an equilibrium establish?

If you inject CO2 into the water would the H+ ions this creates have any "reactivating" potential on the substrate? 

cheers


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## wet (20 Oct 2013)

This is a radically different discussion from APC in regards to how ADA substrate (N, etc rich) pairs nicely with what we know about their water column dosing, but perhaps you will find it interesting and it sparks other ideas too. The niko says high tech can't go a week with no maintenance thread - Page 4 - General Aquarium Plants Discussions - Aquatic Plant Central

I think of my substrate as a safety net. I believe it is critical without water column dosing, per Walstad , etc (though important to note Walstad does account for water column through food and tap water top offs). 

Also, Aquasoil is just easy to plant in  The cost of not having ground cover float up repeatedly is huge for me and makes Aquasoil look much cheaper.


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## BigTom (21 Oct 2013)

I find Aquasoil an absolute pain in the backside to plant in compared to sand.

And that thread is absolutely terrifying, but then I have absolutely zero interest in the underlying chemistry of my tanks. I just want them to look good, be filled with healthy plants and fish and be really easy to look after and robust to mistakes, forgetfulness and total neglect. All of which are easily achievable without even knowing what a molecule is, thanks to the sort of advice we were debating in that other thread 

I can't imagine an easier way to put 99% of people off the thought of having a planted tank than pointing them at that sort of discussion.


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## wet (21 Oct 2013)

So we skip the 1%? (I think it's a much bigger number than that. Notice who those folks are and what they have contributed back to the hobby.) Why?


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## wet (21 Oct 2013)

How do you think folks found and learned these lessons? By experimenting or not experimenting? By discussing and sharing or not discussing and sharing?


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## BigTom (21 Oct 2013)

wet said:


> So we skip the 1%?


 
Not at all, I frequently sing the praises of the 1%. It was just a personal musing that I fail to see the enjoyment in that kind of dissection.


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## BigTom (21 Oct 2013)

Actually, I was a bit off topic and overly critical with that post, sorry. I just wasn't sure what the aim of linking that thread was before you edited your post with the info about ADA substrates and it makes more sense now.


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## ceg4048 (21 Oct 2013)

wet said:


> How do you think folks found and learned these lessons? By experimenting or not experimenting? By discussing and sharing or not discussing and sharing?


We discover this by experimenting, observing the results and then by sharing the results. We do not use marketing tactics or hoopla. We also assiduously avoid hype and propaganda. Are you looking at the photographs of the results? The results are not good enough for you?

What we discover is that there are a lot of high priced products in the market which work well, but which are not accessible to people on a budget. We discover that there are many cheaper ways of accomplishing the same objectives without spending lots of money. We study the fundamental principles of plant growth, which allows us to attack the problems directly instead of spending lots of money.

We discover repeatedly that you do not need to spend a lot of money to have excellent growth performance and excellent plant health. We discover also that there are simple methods of achieving these goals and that you don't have to be Albert Einstein to figure it out. Once the principles of plant growth have been worked out it then can be very easy to implement.

Amazonia is my favorite substrate in the world. As Tom mentioned in his earlier post, the substrate has a lovely velvety feel, which is rewarding if the hobbyists is always sticking his/her hand in the sediment to rearrange the scape. Other sediments are harsh and biting. The substrate is also packed with nutrients, so it allows you to skip dosing. That's a real advantage. As you mention sediment dosing does not rely on flow/distribution and does not require manic attention to a dosing regimen. However, there is no way anyone can rationally argue that this sediment to be cheap.

Cheers,


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## parotet (21 Oct 2013)

That is the reason I like this forum... Really interesting thread for a newbie!

Just one question. When you mention that with enriched substrates you can skip dosing what do you mean? Can you forget it just during a long weekend, during a whole week? I know it will depend on your layout but just to have an idea. My tank has more and more input needs ( especially concerning daily liquid C and ferts dosing) and I fear what is going to happen if I cannot take care of it for 10 days...

It is not my case, I use JBL Manado that is just clay (at least it looks like) but I want to know if using enriched substrates would solve this problem in a future tank




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk - now Free


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## dw1305 (21 Oct 2013)

Hi all, 





NatureBoy said:


> Overtime does an active substrate generally lose its CEC as the sites are filled with the basic cations or does an equilibrium establish?


 Yes, exchange sites will be filled with basic cations over-time, it is "exchange". 





NatureBoy said:


> If you inject CO2 into the water would the H+ ions this creates have any "reactivating" potential on the substrate?


 I don't know, because of the lyotropic series Ca++ would remain bound, but you might be able to acid wash the bound ions out because exchange depends upon both concentration and the tightness of bonding, if you had a huge amount of H+ ions they would tend to replace all other cations, even ones that are more tightly bound.

cheers Darrel


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## mal blackburn (21 Oct 2013)

It seems I was wrong to think that plants wouldn't grow very well in an inert substrate such as just gravel or the likes. And they seem to do very well given the right lights and feeding regime. Something I am not yet accustomed to. I am on upward learning curve when it comes to a planted tank, but my personal journey is governed by the type of fish, the type of tank, and the budget I can allow myself. I cannot see myself using any type of specialist soil as it would just be kicked up all over the place. So I am opting for a Manado base with added nutrition topped with pea gravel. I have CO2 injection and EI dosing at a later date. The type of environment is still under consideration, but will consist of many rocks and large plants.


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## wet (22 Oct 2013)

"We do not use marketing tactics or hoopla. We also assiduously avoid hype and propaganda. Are you looking at the photographs of the results? The results are not good enough for you?"

Here's a post with many pictures that are not over saturated and straight out of affordable cameras. This post shows a variety of substrates that go out of their way to show shades and color and experiences with various substrates I have used, for anyone interested. It states my opinion after trying several examples. They are only a sample of what I have tried in 9 years in the hobby.

Your thoughts on commercially available substrates - Page 2 - Substrates - Aquatic Plant Central

Notice I have tools and many more pictures online of more than the substrate. Note I have never asked for and have refused money for my hobby. Note there are no ads on any of my sites related to aquaria.  I only ever make hobby money by selling my plants to people who love my plants, and I stash that money to buy more plants and tank for my hobby.

I wasn't aware I was a shill for anything. Who has an agenda again?


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## dw1305 (22 Oct 2013)

Hi all, 





wet said:


> They are only a sample of what I have tried in 9 years in the hobby. Your thoughts on commercially available substrates - Page 2 - Substrates - Aquatic Plant Central


I like the paludariums in the link.

cheers Darrel


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## ceg4048 (22 Oct 2013)

parotet said:


> Just one question. When you mention that with enriched substrates you can skip dosing what do you mean? Can you forget it just during a long weekend, during a whole week? I know it will depend on your layout but just to have an idea. My tank has more and more input needs ( especially concerning daily liquid C and ferts dosing) and I fear what is going to happen if I cannot take care of it for 10 days...
> 
> 
> 
> It is not my case, I use JBL Manado that is just clay (at least it looks like) but I want to know if using enriched substrates would solve this problem in a future tank


Yep, of course it depends on the length of time, the amount of light/CO2 and so forth, but generally, if an enriched substrate is used then you can skip a few days without too much difficulty. If the lights are lowered a week is certainly possible. It's a very useful combination to have an enriched substrate combined with water column dosing.

Cheers,


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## Tim Harrison (22 Oct 2013)

Both soil substrate and column dosing...and CO2...


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