# reduced Kno3 dosing to help with red plants ?



## John Starkey (22 Feb 2009)

Hi All,
Last weekend Dan and i made a trip to Aquajardin nr glos,whilst we were there we had a very interesting conversation with Edward (store mgr)who gave me some rotala rotundifolia cuttings some four months earlier,i mentioned to him that it grows very well but i cant seem to get the nice pinky/red colour like his,he said that he has found that by reducing the kno3 levels he has found the plant goes very red,my local tap water is loaded with N and P so i only dose very lean anyway.So one week on without any doseing of Kno3 the rotala is now turning a lovely pinky/red colour.i wonder if this would be the same with other red plants ? regards john.


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## altaaffe (22 Feb 2009)

Does this cause you any problems with your green plants though, i.e. showing deficiency's through not getting enough ?


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## John Starkey (22 Feb 2009)

HI 
as of yet i havent noticed any change,but as i said in my original post my tap water is loaded with N and P so the rest of the plants may be getting enough,but like anything in this planted hobby it takes time to see the results of any change,it may be that i might have to add some N just twice a week or even once a week,regards john.


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## Simon D (22 Feb 2009)

That's very interseting.

I'm struggling with my Alternanthera reineckii 'Purple' (lilacina). I have more than enough lighting  (didn't think I could go over the top with this plant) I dose EI and have strong CO2 injection. It's not a particularily fast grower and is being hit by algae. 

I thought it was a combination of the excess light and being a slow growing specimen that was making it a prime target, but this idea has given me food for thought.


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## Garuf (22 Feb 2009)

Yes you can but you're inducing a deficiency which just happens to have a desirable appearance and in turn this can lead to algae, this is to not say it can't be done short term but I would avoid it long term as you can and probably will run in to troubles.


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## altaaffe (23 Feb 2009)

It certainly got me wondering, my Macranda is at best orange although it is sprouting at an amazing rate.


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## baron von bubba (23 Mar 2009)

do they have that in the big planted tank? if so that'd explain why they have about 20 sae's in that tank! :0)

tis a great shop tho!!


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## John Starkey (23 Mar 2009)

baron von bubba said:
			
		

> do they have that in the big planted tank? if so that'd explain why they have about 20 sae's in that tank! :0)
> 
> tis a great shop tho!!



Hi,
yes the big planted tank in alcove on the right,

regards john.


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## Dave Spencer (24 Mar 2009)

Chlorophyll requires N for it to be formed, so my guess is that your Rotala will become deficient in chlorophyll, and the redness from anthocyanins becomes predominant. 

We all know chlorophyll gives plants a green pigment, so you are limiting this. You are walking a fine line with your N, in my opinion.

Dave.


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## George Farmer (24 Mar 2009)

JamesC's experiments with urea and ammonium as alternative sources of N are very interesting....


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## baron von bubba (24 Mar 2009)

do you have a link george please? sounds like an interesting read!


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## George Farmer (24 Mar 2009)

baron von bubba said:
			
		

> do you have a link george please? sounds like an interesting read!


Here you go...

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=925


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## plantbrain (24 Mar 2009)

What are anthrocyanin's made out of?

There's no N at all, there is............a lot of carbon.

Think good CO2, moderate shading/low light.
The best reds I've seen for A reineckii and R macrandra have been fairly low light/shaded, and rarely pruned.
This time allows for full color development.

Faster growing R mac looks pale, orange etc, not deep blood red.

Same is true in natural systems.

R rotundiflora has several bio types that are redder than others.
I have some of the supper red and it is much redder than the normal stuff.

I do not limit N and I still get really red colors.

Take a look at the color on the A reineckii:






No crinkling either, R wallichii, even under a bright washed out MH light is still nice a red.
L cuba has a nice red color.

This is EI+ADA AS.

No tricks. No playing with the colors in Photoshop etc.





Why not just add more fish if you want more NH4?
Seems like a better dosing solution for N than Urea.
I add KNO3 for the longer term non toxic forms of N.
And algae etaers take algae => waste=> NH4 for plants.
So they are no brainers.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## John Starkey (24 Mar 2009)

Hi Tom,

plants look in excellent condition,testement to good ei,

can ask what return pipes are those,and can you direct them were you want,

regards john.


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## baron von bubba (24 Mar 2009)

john starkey said:
			
		

> Hi Tom,
> 
> plants look in excellent condition,testement to good ei,
> 
> ...





the pips are "loc-line" they can be bent to any position, extended etc!


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## plantbrain (25 Mar 2009)

If you think about the NH4 issue from a nature standpoint.............where does most of it come from? Fish/critters, sediment perhaps.

If you want to use natural processes more in the tank, what seems best? Fish/waste or adding inorganic chemicals?
While I am playing two sides of the coin here..............the trade off is still far better using fish and their waste vs urea etc, I gets something out of the fish(they look nice, are well fed, can have more... etc) and I already feed them anyway.

Adding another item and having to be more careful with that than say PO4........is not that good of a trade off.

You can also estimate how much Fish waste NH4 comes into the aquarium:

Assume 10% of the N from food is retained, the other 90% is waste. If you measure total N in the foods you feed, you can weigh them, dry weight etc, then use that and X the % N, then assume a 10% loss from that.

If you feed 2x a day (0.5 grams each time), and 1 gram of dry food at 5% N, you add 50mg of N as NH4.

Then do the volume of the tank to get mg/l.

So a 100 liter tank=> 0.5ppm 

Fairly straight foward. Natural and dosed slowly, if you add more algae eaters also.....then more gets converted to N for the plants.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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