# Scapers Tank flow issues, recommend me better lily pipes!



## LukeDaly (29 Jan 2015)

Hey guys, have some serious issues with flow in my tank at the minute, it's the Dennerle 50L Scapers tank with a fluval 306. 

I'm putting this down to the cheap Chinese lily pipes I currently have on the tank. I guess what I'm really asking is are lily pipes actually of any use or do they just look good? 

My current lily pipes just seem to dump water straight down rather than out the way to create a current. 

If I could get a glass version of the stock fluval 306 outlet I would be happy! 

Help me sort this out guys losing plants due to this junk! 

I can post photos from any angle requested to try and help get to the bottom of this. 

Thanks, Luke.


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## parotet (29 Jan 2015)

Hi 

As far as I can see in the canister manual your filter has a circulation capacity of 780 lph which should be enough for using the lily pipes (most people don't realize that you need a good filter to be able to move the water column properly with just one outlet).

But as you will probably know this pump performance is generally calculated without filter media, and most of the times the real number is 30-50% lower depending on your personal setup.

So... How much filter media do you have in the filter? Do you have any equipment installed in the hoses (heater, co2 reactor, etc.) that may reduce the flow? 
Once you make sure it is not a problem of reduced flow, you can address your Chinese lily design problem... It can be this but lots of folks use Chinese lily pipes without problems. I have even tried a clear PVC one, bending a tube with a hair dryer and it is ugly as hell but works (it distributes the water as I want and I can use it to ripple the water surface). I am also using one in nano tank that is just a normal outflow not lily-shaped, just a standard round one... And it also does what I need. My guess is that we overestimate the design of lily pipes, direction of flow, vortex performance and so on.... and we forget about the basic things.

Jordi


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## LukeDaly (29 Jan 2015)

parotet said:


> Hi
> 
> As far as I can see in the canister manual your filter has a circulation capacity of 780 lph which should be enough for using the lily pipes (most people don't realize that you need a good filter to be able to move the water column properly with just one outlet).
> 
> ...


Hey parotet! Thanks for taking the time to help me out! I'm using the standard media with the carbon swapped for purigen,  I think your correct about lily pipe design it seems over complicated and I had MUCH better flow with the standard outlet! Do you mind showing me your lily pipe designs? 

And I can upload a few photos of my tank if that would help determine what I need to best distribute my flow? 

Thanks, Luke.


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## parotet (29 Jan 2015)

LukeDaly said:


> I'm using the standard media with the carbon swapped for purigen


So I recommend you to empty part of the filter media (leave just 1/3 of it). Yo don't need it, your healthy plants are really the best biological filter you can have, and you want your filter to deliver the maximum flow. 



LukeDaly said:


> Do you mind showing me your lily pipe designs?


This is my lily pipe from AquaGro, actually the cheapest one I could find at the LFS... it works.
http://nascapers.es/tienda/lily-pipe-cristal-salida/1219-pipa-de-salida-12mm-aquagro.html

This is the other one I'm currently using in the nano tank, the standard outlet from JBL... works very well, with or without the flat adapter
https://www.jbl.de/en/aquatics-freshwater-products/detail/4593/jbl-outset-wide

Jordi


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## parotet (29 Jan 2015)

And this is the result of my poor DIY skills  (ADA mini lily knock-off attempt using PVC)






Amazingly it works as well as the previous ones at least in my nano... With a good flow coming from your filter nearly everything will work

Jordi


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## Paulo Soares (29 Jan 2015)

Good afternoon, 
As Parotet said, all filter power capabliity announced by the construtor is not "real" (let´s use this word). Those announced measures are not taking in consideration the use of Lily Pipes, the elevation and curves of the tubes where the water has to pass by since the filter till inside the aqua and most important the weight of the water (phisics) "climbing" the tubes. And more little things that i´m not going to talk about now 

You saw many friends of us and people around the world using combinations of Lilys with filters but most of them have to powerful filters with more than 1000 liter / hour. And why? To obtain enough force to make more water passing through those little slits (i don´t no what to name it) of the INflow. The INflow is the main Issue! Without a good inflow you can not expect to gain more flow inside the filter or in the Outflow! If you smash the Inflow you are smashing the filter capability. Again: Lily PIPE Inflow. 

That´s why i´m recommending for you to buy the new "ADA New Lily Pipe V Inflow".A V-5 or a V-7 depending on the filter hose. 

Myself: 
I have a Eco pro 300 with 13 mm Lily Pipe in a *96 *liter tank, with *only 40 cm of tube* and without the *last compartment of the filter*, *the carbon, *and still i had to buy a pump cause the Lily´s strangles the input. So for a while i had to return back to the green input of the original Eheim until i finally received my ADA New Lily Pipe. 
I did a lot of experiments and came always to the same result. Inflow! 

So.. they are beauty mas the water flow comes first! 

This is my opinion. 
HUg


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## Paulo Soares (29 Jan 2015)

You may follow this: 

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/lily-pipes-size-query.35757/#post-383812


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## LukeDaly (29 Jan 2015)

parotet said:


> So I recommend you to empty part of the filter media (leave just 1/3 of it). Yo don't need it, your healthy plants are really the best biological filter you can have, and you want your filter to deliver the maximum flow.
> 
> 
> This is my lily pipe from AquaGro, actually the cheapest one I could find at the LFS... it works.
> ...





parotet said:


> And this is the result of my poor DIY skills  (ADA mini lily knock-off attempt using PVC)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your version looks as if it would work better than the ones I purchased! Standby by for some photos to try and help you understand whats going on.


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## LukeDaly (29 Jan 2015)

Paulo Soares said:


> Good afternoon,
> As Parotet said, all filter power capabliity announced by the construtor is not "real" (let´s use this word). Those announced measures are not taking in consideration the use of Lily Pipes, the elevation and curves of the tubes where the water has to pass by since the filter till inside the aqua and most important the weight of the water (phisics) "climbing" the tubes. And more little things that i´m not going to talk about now
> 
> You saw many friends of us and people around the world using combinations of Lilys with filters but most of them have to powerful filters with more than 1000 liter / hour. And why? To obtain enough force to make more water passing through those little slits (i don´t no what to name it) of the INflow. The INflow is the main Issue! Without a good inflow you can not expect to gain more flow inside the filter or in the Outflow! If you smash the Inflow you are smashing the filter capability. Again: Lily PIPE Inflow.
> ...



Hello! I made the slots on my current inflow bigger to try and counter this issue as I seen this as a problem from the get go! Could the fact I am using 17mm lily pipes effect the flow? 

I will be sure to check them out! They are rather expensive so I just want to be sure as to what I can do to fix the problem. 
But I agree Its probably inflow. 



Paulo Soares said:


> You may follow this:
> 
> http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/lily-pipes-size-query.35757/#post-383812



Just poured a cuppa, perfect! Thank you.


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## LukeDaly (29 Jan 2015)

A few photos.. 









As you can see this is barely reaching the front of the tank as the co2 is hardly moving.. 





Thanks!


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## Paulo Soares (29 Jan 2015)

The more larger are the Lilys more weight in the tubes, then you´ll need more power in the filter rotor to push all that water inside...
So with 17 mm lily or tube i should say that any filter under 900 Liter hour capacity, won´t do the job..


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## Paulo Soares (29 Jan 2015)

One other thing:
You may think that water comes out from the lily right straight in the direction you point it.
Wrong!
The water may go to the left or right as soon she comes out of the lily outflow, so you´ll need to repoint it.
If you took off some water of the tank till the outflow is below but still working you´ll see to where the water is going..

That´s another issue you should check.


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## LukeDaly (29 Jan 2015)

Paulo Soares said:


> The more larger are the Lilys more weight in the tubes, then you´ll need more power in the filter rotor to push all that water inside...
> So with 17 mm lily or tube i should say that any filter under 900 Liter hour capacity, won´t do the job..



Maybe I should look at finding a way to down size my filter tubing then? 

Just checked out that ADA lily pipe, £120!?! 
What makes it so special? The slots in it look even smaller than the one I currently have. 

Thanks, Luke.


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## Paulo Soares (29 Jan 2015)

And in my opinion that OUtflow should be in the right front corner where you have the Co2 Cheker. 
But as you are having less flow i understand why you put it there.


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## Paulo Soares (29 Jan 2015)

No, you have the ADA V5 or V7 series Lily Pipe with 20 slits! Check how many you have in yours


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## LukeDaly (29 Jan 2015)

Paulo Soares said:


> No, you have the ADA V5 or V7 series Lily Pipe with 20 slits! Check how many you have in yours



10  I guess you are right I am having a look at the Gush glassware at the minute, whats your opinion on it?


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## Paulo Soares (29 Jan 2015)

I´m gonna be honest. In this hobby the more we try to not spent money... more expensive is the bill in the end cause avoiding to buy what is reaaly good stuff..
It´s a lesson i´ve learned for many times. 
You may try those Gush. I simple think that if it doesn´t work fine wou´ll get ...


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## Andy Thurston (29 Jan 2015)

LukeDaly said:


> 10  I guess you are right I am having a look at the Gush glassware at the minute, whats your opinion on it?


I've got a gush inflow and glass spraybar on my 2217 works very well in the 60l tank.
The gush inflow pipe doesn't noticeably reduce flow but the dirty shrimp guard does.
Make hoses as short and straight as possible then troubleshoot the in/outflows.


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## LukeDaly (29 Jan 2015)

Big clown said:


> I've got a gush inflow and glass spraybar on my 2217 works very well in the 60l tank.
> The gush inflow pipe doesn't noticeably reduce flow but the dirty shrimp guard does.
> Make hoses as short and straight as possible then troubleshoot the in/outflows.



Hello mate, 

Thanks for the input! How many slots is on the intake? And is it the 17mm or the smaller version? 

This is for my 50L, is it a glass spray bar you are using? If so on the back or side of the tank, sorry for all the questions dude! 

Thanks, Luke.


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## Andy Thurston (29 Jan 2015)

Hi luke
Couldn't say how many slots(shrimp guard in way) only "enough"IME. Its the 17mm inflow and 13mm cascade glass spraybar from apfuk.
You can diy an acrylic spraybar for around £6
Back or side in my tank is the same its a 40cm cube lol but full length on the back/longest side is usually best


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## LukeDaly (29 Jan 2015)

Big clown said:


> Hi luke
> Couldn't say how many slots(shrimp guard in way) only "enough"IME. Its the 17mm inflow and 13mm cascade glass spraybar from apfuk.
> You can diy an acrylic spraybar for around £6
> Back or side in my tank is the same its a 40cm cube lol but full length on the back/longest side is usually best



So you think it could do with more? How did you downsize the outlet to 13mm?  
Yeah I think I mite try a diy version before biting the bullet on a glass one. 

Thanks, Luke.


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## Andy Thurston (29 Jan 2015)

I Didn't downsize the 2217 has different size in/outflows


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## LukeDaly (29 Jan 2015)

Big clown said:


> I Didn't downsize the 2217 has different size in/outflows



Damn that's handy!


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## Marvin (29 Jan 2015)

LukeDaly said:


> Hello mate,
> 
> Thanks for the input! How many slots is on the intake? And is it the 17mm or the smaller version?
> 
> ...




The 13mm gush intake has 15 slots. On the gush website you can see both the 13mm and 17mm have 15 slots.


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## LukeDaly (29 Jan 2015)

Marvin said:


> The 13mm gush intake has 15 slots. On the gush website you can see both the 13mm and 17mm have 15 slots.


Think it's gush I'm going to go for man! The site is down atm tho. 

I can see the use Magento CMS, I work with it everyday haha I know the pain. 

What outlet should I go for? Definitely nothing that aims towards the substrate,  preferably a straight flow.


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## Marvin (29 Jan 2015)

I followed Paulo's advice to go with the straight flow, and got the the regular gUSH oPipe


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## LukeDaly (30 Jan 2015)

Marvin said:


> I followed Paulo's advice to go with the straight flow, and got the the regular gUSH oPipe



Awesome I think im going to go for the same! when you stick your hand in the tank is flow coming straight out? 

Don't want one that points down the way as it mess's with my sand on the bottom! 

Cheers. Luke.


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## Marvin (1 Feb 2015)

Haven't had the chance to test it yet. This will be my first tank so I'm still in the process of researching and purchasing.


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## LukeDaly (1 Feb 2015)

Marvin said:


> Haven't had the chance to test it yet. This will be my first tank so I'm still in the process of researching and purchasing.


I'll let you know then! Ordered it myself   Luke.


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## Marvin (1 Feb 2015)

I bet it's good, George Farmer did a review of the nano pipes, and I agree with him on the quality.

What I didn't want to end up with is something like the 1's in this post.


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