# Question about soil, ammonia and water quality



## Greenview

I am about to set up my soil based tank in a few days, but as I have not taken this approach before I wondered if others could advise how long it takes things to settle enough for fish to be put in the aquarium. Ideally I want to introduce them asap as I am temporarily re-housing the fish for this tank. I will be using John Innes No 3 compost and a cap of sand: can I expect it to leech ammonia for a few days? Does it produce any significant clouding of the water? 

I was not planning to soak the soil (my research has not indicated it is necessary) but I will fill and drain the tank a few times before planting just to get rid of matter washing out of the soil. is this the best approach?

Thanks


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## BigTom

When I set up my soil tank I ended up going away for nearly a month as soon as it was filled so I can't say for sure how long it took for the ammonia spike to pass, but if the soil has not been mineralised than I suspect it is a matter of weeks rather than days until your soil stops leaching ammonia. You may be able to reduce the amount of time that there is measurable ammonia in the water column by using large amounts of cheap pond plants such as hornwort to soak it up while you wait for the rest of your plant biomass to establish.

I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will be along at some point!


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## ceg4048

Or, you could just bake it in the oven for a couple of hours to mineralize it.

Cheers,


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## Antipofish

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Or, you could just bake it in the oven for a couple of hours to mineralize it.
> 
> Cheers,



Does this cause enough mineralisation to prevent any ammonia leeching, or just significantly reduce it ?  I suppose SOME ammonia is desirable anyway and depending on the amount of plants you put in, the reduced amount of ammonia would be utilised by them.


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## Greenview

Thanks for that info. 
Anyone know how badly John Innes 3 leeches ammonia?


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## Morgan Freeman

I've had my tank set up for at least a few weeks and it appears the ammonia has only just settled down.


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## Christor

I will be able to tell you pretty soon, I am using john innes no3 but I let mine on a bin bag to air out (somewhere elements and things wnt get near) as it supposedly lets ammonia evaporate to a degree, though cegs knows better so it would be a better idea, unless you dont fancy baking soil in your oven   

just planted my tank so will wait a littl while before testing, thursday or so then ill ill pm you, but im sure itll be as morgan has stated, a few weeks to stabilise


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## Greenview

Thanks; I guess I was a bit optimistic in hoping for a spike lasting a few days only. I will plant densely and throw in some floating plants, if I use a mature filter and daily 50% changes I hope that I can get to stock the tank in a couple of weeks. I have had aquasoil prepared quickly in this way, but it sounds like this may be a longer time than that.

I cannot see me getting away with baking compost in the oven, but it sounds like a good idea. I wonder if immersing in boiling water in a bucket has a similar effect or whether it just leeches out all the good stuff in the soil. Anyone know?


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## George Farmer

Greenview said:
			
		

> Thanks for that info.
> Anyone know how badly John Innes 3 leeches ammonia?


Not sure but I have read and heard first-hand that it does hugely increase hardness and pH due its lime content.


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## ceg4048

Greenview said:
			
		

> I cannot see me getting away with baking compost in the oven, but it sounds like a good idea. I wonder if immersing in boiling water in a bucket has a similar effect or whether it just leeches out all the good stuff in the soil. Anyone know?


Well, the trick is to use someone else's oven. Don't you have annoying colleagues that you would like to avoid but don't have the heart (or guts) to tell them so? Well, invite yourself over to their place and bring your compost. After it's all over, they will avoid you. This strategy is flawless.

In any case, yes, boiling for a few hours works the same as baking for a few hours, except boiling/baking kills all the good bacteria. If the priority is to mineralize though then this should work and the sediment will not leech ammonium/ammonium. The best strategy is to simply soak the compost for a few weeks either in a bucket or in the tank because this way, it mineralizes and you develop the bacterial colonies. You don't really need to put the sediment in a flooded tank and then have all the stress of dealing with ammonia. Soaking for a few weeks is the essence of the Dry Start Method (DSM) and you can even put some emmersed plants in to boot.

Cheers,


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## Tim Harrison

Newly submerged soils can release ammonia and other compounds in to the water column which can reach levels that are toxic to fish; but rarely to plants, so plant heavily from the outset this will help reduce ammonia etc to non-toxic levels.

Depending on parameters such as water chemistry and soil microbial activity it can take up to 2 months for the chemical and biological changes to stabilise, but usually it is not necessary to wait anywhere near that long before adding fish; this is where the sensible use of a decent test kit comes in to its own. 

The key is then to load the system gradually so that the water purifying quality of the plants combined with the filters capacity to meet demand is not overwhelmed. So add the fish one or two at a time, gradually over the space of a month or so; keep and eye out for signs of stress. You also have the safety net of further water changes.


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## Greenview

Thanks for the advice, I will watch things closely and take things slowly. I am going to set up and plant at the end of the week and am looking forward to it. There is nothing like getting to do a new scape!


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## foxfish

If these ammonia rich soils catch on amongst our formites I am sure methods to deal with the new tank start up will develop too.
As Ceg has already said the dry start method is well tested & using an already mature filter will help no end too.
Trickle filters are very effective & fast at reducing ammonia levels & are extremely easy to build even if they are just a temporary (unsightly) method to employ while the tank settles in.


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## Brenmuk

When I first went over to using a soil under layer I had a mature filter, reused plants and gravel and was able to start stocking immediately.

When I set up my shrimp tank from scratch with new filter/sand and plants it took about 2 weeks before I could introduce shrimp. I used john Innes no 1 which is less rich than John innes 3 so perhaps allow at least a month before you start introducing stock.


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## Christor

Just done a reading for mine and after 4 days my nitrites are 0.25 and ammonia around 0.75, so I would say it may be starting to stabilis but not anywhere near it yet, will be checking daily 

I have definitely heavily plannted which I hope will speed things up!


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## Tim Harrison

> If these ammonia rich soils catch on amongst our formites I am sure methods to deal with the new tank start up will develop too.
> As Ceg has already said the dry start method is well tested & using an already mature filter will help no end too.
> Trickle filters are very effective & fast at reducing ammonia levels & are extremely easy to build even if they are just a temporary (unsightly) method to employ while the tank settles in.



In my humble opinion soil substrate is in itself a method for tank start up.

I can only speak from personal observation but I have always find that the ammonia given off during mineralisation is more than adequate to cycle a filter. I suppose this is in effect fishless cycling. I also add water conditioner that contains beneficial bacteria in the hope that it will speed the process up; but I suppose this is controversial. Either way it can't hurt and the product I use only costs a few quid.

I have found that levels of ammonia stabilize within acceptable levels quite quickly, often within a few weeks, which is borne out by others experience. So although it can take up to 2 months before mineralisation is complete - and therefore for the soil to stabilise as "aquatic sediment" - it is not usually necessary to wait anywhere near that long before adding fish etc. In this respect it probably helps to think of mineralisation and tank cycling as two separate but mutually inclusive processes. 

Usually I have gradually built livestock levels to full capacity over the period of a month or so without any problems. 

I am convinced that planting heavily from the outset also helps. The use of macrophytes as water purifiers is well documented and they help to reduce ammonia and other chemical compounds to non-toxic levels. 

Also planting heavily from the outset probably helps to reduce the length of time it takes for the submerged soil to stop giving off ammonia since macrophytes release O2 and organic compounds through their roots which will greatly increase microbial activity, and therefore nitrification and denitrification, in the forming sediment. The existing bacteria on plant roots will perhaps also help seed the sediment, speeding the process on its way. 

Eventually an equilibrium is reached and the soil substrate will actually start to absorb ammonia/ammonium from the water column where it will undergo nitrification. A substantial water change at this point is usually all that is needed to make the tank habitable to fish etc. This combined with dense planting and even a partially cycled filter probably prevents ammonia reaching toxic levels, even when gradually adding critters and increasing the bioload. 

I think there is often a tendency to overcomplicate matters when it comes to soil substrates, I am sure it has something to do with ideological barriers. But as I have said before it’s relatively easy to get the best from them.


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## Morgan Freeman

Well said.

My tank has basically gone through a fishless cycle without me doing anything, all levels are now down to zero from initial high spikes. I'm not using a filter so waiting a few more weeks for sufficient plant mass to develop before adding fish. I am totally, 100% converted to soil.


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## chris521957

I rescaped my tank over the last 2 days following Troi's method after reading about it on this forum and Troi's blog. Tested the water perams this morning and everything is just right, so put some fish in and will keep my eye on them over the next few days. My filter is mature, gravel was from my old set up, just gave it a good rinse and capped the soil with it. Some old and new plants, the water was crystal clear after filling, but has now clouded slightly through replanting. Hopefully it will be clear wenough to take a few pics soon.


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## Tim Harrison

Thanks guys for the info.

Soil substrate really has so much to offer and I think we might just be scratching the surface of its full potential. The whole self cycling phenomenon is a point in case. All the benefits of fishless cycling but none of the hassle. No dosing with ammonia, or adding fish food and suffering the subsequent consequences of phosphate build up, and no constant testing...well not that much anyway.

As for water quality, the water in my soil substrate tank is always gin clear, except when I move stuff around a bit, but then it usually clears fairly rapidly within a couple of hours. And all chemical parameters are always well within recommended limits, especially ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate which are always a big fat zero. 

Even accounting for supposed inaccuracies this still places results well within tolerable limits. I have two master test kits, by the way, the big Nutrafin Master Test Kit and a similar one by API; results are always consistent with one another.


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## Greenview

Just finished planting this morning and I was surprised how clear the water was on first filling: I assumed that there would be more washout from the soil. 

It could do with a few more plants, but it has a mature filter. I will see how parameters are over the next 48hours.


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## Tim Harrison

Excellent, keep us posted. Do you have any images?


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## 4onthemove

I thought I might have done something wrong with my tank setup until I read this. I have a 96 ltr tank with John Innes No2. and 4mm gravel on top. Light is very low, about 0.9 W/G and can't be increase   so have planeted a fair few low light plants. The tank has been running now for 3 weeks, temperature at 26C, and my Ammonia constanlty around 5ppm, Nitrite also high. PH 6.8 (water very hard as I live in East Anglia). 

I was going to start over again, but after reading post on here I am happy to leave it alone. All plants seem to be growing, so I'm hoping this will help reduce the ammonia. 

Just waiting and waiting and waiting for the water to be correct before I move my cherry red shrimp and Ottos into a their new home, and get rid of the old tank. Water parameters seem fine for those b***** snails that have appeared in the new tank.


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