# Who needs a dog.



## AverageWhiteBloke (16 Jun 2018)

What a great relationship going on here. Comical to watch, reminds me of my Discus days when they would take bloodworm out of my fingers and swim in between them for a little stroke. 



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## alto (17 Jun 2018)

Fun video 

but also sad - fish is deprived of any sensory stimulation outside interaction with owner ... no tankmates, no decor ... strange love


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## AverageWhiteBloke (17 Jun 2018)

I was thinking that, there was a rock in there earlier on that seems to have been taken out, don't know if the fish had injured itself on it or not. Seems to be getting a lot of it interaction and stimulus from the owner who treats it like a pet.

The owner is a member in this forum and I've see their other stuff so certainly know about fish and plant keeping. 

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## AverageWhiteBloke (17 Jun 2018)

Lot of debate as well over whether these hybrid fish are ethical and a risk if released into the environment but the fish seems healthy and happy.

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## BubblingUnder (17 Jun 2018)

alto said:


> Fun video
> but also sad - fish is deprived of any sensory stimulation outside interaction with owner ... no tankmates, no decor ... strange love



It does have a friend, it can see it's reflection in the glass (budgie with a mirror situation). It's the reason my Cory's surf the glass sides of my tank. It's happy to see its owner for the same reason my Discus is, I feed it.


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## alto (17 Jun 2018)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Seems to be getting a lot of it interaction and stimulus from the owner who treats it like a pet.


True & fish is obviously very interactive with people 
but is this 1 hour out of 24?
or is fish tank in a home office etc


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## AverageWhiteBloke (17 Jun 2018)

A self obsessed fish constantly checking itself out in the mirror. It should be on love island.The fish is probably more intelligent though.  

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## alto (17 Jun 2018)

BubblingUnder said:


> it can see it's reflection in the glass


Are you certain of this?
(contravenes reports I've read from "reliable" sources)
Bettas flare/react (strongly) to fish in mirror, but not to tank walls


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## BubblingUnder (17 Jun 2018)

alto said:


> but is this 1 hour out of 24?



I prefer to feed my fish smaller amounts four times a day (that's four hours interaction/hunting food a day).


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## BubblingUnder (17 Jun 2018)

alto said:


> Bettas flare/react (strongly) to fish in mirror, but not to tank walls



Depends on light direction from inside/outside the tank for how reflective a particular wall is. I can only speak of the fish behaviour in my tank.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (17 Jun 2018)

BubblingUnder said:


> Depends on light direction from inside/outside the tank for how reflective a particular wall is. I can only speak of the fish behaviour in my tank.



I would say it depends how bright the light is out side the tank. You tend to get more reflection when the outside room is dark. My fish don't seem to notice me as much in the evening when house lights are off. The fish can clearly see outside of the tank rather than itself as its chasing about some food in the tweezers on the outside. @Foo the Flowerhorn do you spend a lot of time entertaining the fish?


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## Zeus. (17 Jun 2018)

alto said:


> but also sad - fish is deprived of any sensory stimulation outside interaction with owner ... no tankmates, no decor ... strange love



Have  to agree, not keen on fish in empty tank myself esp when alone.


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## Tim Harrison (17 Jun 2018)

Never really wondered what a psychopaths fish tank would look like...but now I know anyway...


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## leedsrhinojohn (17 Jun 2018)

I think it borders on animal cruelty, if we keep fish we have a duty of care to provide as much a natural home as is possible, i dont think a flowerhorns natural home is alone with absolutely nothing around it.
If this person thinks anything of his fish he should either give it to somebody who will care for it properly or provide it with as much a natural habitat as possible.


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## BubblingUnder (17 Jun 2018)

Tim Harrison said:


> what a psychopaths fish tank would look like


All fish keepers are psychopaths its just a question of degree...…….
https://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/blog/articles/are-fishkeepers-psychopaths


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## mort (17 Jun 2018)

I normally wouldn't comment on a thread evolving ethics and whilst I'm not a fan of bare tanks, I don't think you can say it's animal cruelty. From what i know of these fish they are really good at destroying their tanks and those that keep them normally do so in bare tanks whether we agree with it or not. Its more likely that they will actually do themselves harm in furnished aquaria unless you make large sacrifices, plus they are heavy feeders and make a lot of mess. From the video however it looks like the fish is very well looked after giving how much it has grown, it's overall healthy look and the tank being very well maintained. So whilst it's not a species I think should even exist I don't think it's being treated badly at all.


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## zozo (18 Jun 2018)

BubblingUnder said:


> All fish keepers are psychopaths its just a question of degree...…….
> https://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/blog/articles/are-fishkeepers-psychopaths



 The picture is a tad bigger than fish keeping only.. It's the intire pet and zoo industry that needs a grand revision when it comes to responsibilities involved in respectfully keeping animals. But it is a trade and in trade money and respect makes the world go round.

So the article should be generalized to hold more truth into "Are animal keepers psychopats?" Unfortunately vast numbers are if not the majority. Not to speek from the ignorant non animal keepers indulging a zoo weekend, funding others to keep animals in unrespectfull ways for them.

It certainly aint a mater of degree it's simple black or white and it all comes down to the inpropper use of the concept respecting and putting the money at the wrong end of the stick.

Never mind the dog.. Beware of its owner..


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## PARAGUAY (18 Jun 2018)

Glad that been said above, the Flowerhorn is in exellent health, who knows what the fish thinks.It interacts with its owner lovely.How many of us go on holiday aware or unaware what the natural world had to suffer to make that resort?,how many of us see animals used in unecessary sometimes cruel ways to keep tourists happy? after the holiday or getting the info how many of us sign up in protest, ?


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## tam (18 Jun 2018)

The Animal Welfare Act (uk) defines the following needs every owner is responsible for providing for:

(a)its need for a suitable environment,
(b)its need for a suitable diet,
(c)its need to be able to exhibit normal behaviour patterns,
(d)any need it has to be housed with, or apart from, other animals, and
(e)its need to be protected from pain, suffering, injury and disease.

The most common one that is ignored is need to be able to exhibit normal behaviour patterns. We provide a clean tank with the correct parameters, a healthy diet, co-habitors (or not depending on the species) and medical care. They are all essential basics. 

The next level - providing the facilities to exhibit normal behaviour patterns is more difficult and something I would say the majority of fish keepers (me included) fail with at some point. After all, if you've done all the above the fish is healthy and not apparently in poor conditions it seems like job done. To provide for normal behaviour patterns you have to know what they are for that individual species and work out how to accommodate them. Different fish's behaviour patterns can conflict (even if their water parameters don't) and it can conflict with how you want the tank to look, space and costs. 

Do you make sure to grow enough algae in your tank to provide natural grazing options for fish whose natural behaviour is to spend half their day browsing on algae? Do you provide substrate suitable for digging in to fish that like to burrow? Does your lighting allow for normal wake/sleep cycles. Do you provide dense top growth for fish that naturally nest in it? Do you provide leaf litter for hiding in if appropriate? Is the flow in your tank really enough for fish that would naturally spend their day clinging on to rocks in high currents? Do you provide enough space for fish to live in a large shoal and to move in a way that's natural?

I don't think the issue is fish owner specific. It's an issue that's building awareness in all animal keeping area - from scientific research animals, to zoos to dog owners - pop 'your animal type + enrichment' in google if you want to know more. I think everyone should ask themselves: are you really providing an environment that supports natural behaviour patterns for that animal? People in houses full of glass fish tanks shouldn't throw stones.


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## BubblingUnder (18 Jun 2018)

tam said:


> facilities to exhibit normal behaviour patterns is more difficult



I'm not sure you should try to analyse this sort of thing too hard you should try to provide the best you can reasonably with the current knowledge available. The legislation itself is in conflict if we were to follow _part (c)its need to be able to exhibit normal behaviour patterns_ we should introduce predators of the fish we keep which would conflict with _part (e)its need to be protected from pain, suffering, injury and disease_.

Why for example do we allow cats to follow their natural behaviour of predation but don't allow dogs to hunt ?

The problem with humans over analysing this is they can't know what an animal prefers if the brain of a fish is the size of a pea. As a trade off would I prefer a long safe life where I am fed & there is no famine or a short life in the wild with hunger & fear of predators ?


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## zozo (18 Jun 2018)

tam said:


> The Animal Welfare Act (uk) defines the following needs every owner is responsible for providing for:
> 
> (a)its need for a suitable environment,



90% of the most popular pedigree dog breeds already fail having this invironment in their very own body.. 

Why is this still going on?.. Because societies elites have the biggest say in defending the breed in respect of identifying their status..


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## AverageWhiteBloke (18 Jun 2018)

I have to admit I wish I hadn't posted this. There's a lot of debate on whether or not (quite heated at times) and I didn't realise what the fish was until afterwards. I just assumed it was some kind of large Cichlid that I've never heard of because those type of fish don't interest me. However now I've had the chance to dig into some fact on it personally, I stand on the side of the fish shouldn't exist...but it does so whatever.

In defence of the owner, I follow his work on youtube which is where I came across the video. The guy looks after his fish and has some excellent low tech very natural tanks so I'm guessing he is a nature type person. Unsure of why this fish attracts him but each to their own. Maybe he wanted a pet with some character and this was as close as he was getting. The fish to me looks happy and healthy, for all we know the guy could be retired and spends all day playing with the fish like you would any other pet for its stimulation? From what I gather this thing might just be in a growing tank for now and not its final destination. They are also very aggressive fish which can't be kept with others and tend to wreck the tank including smashing heaters and pulling filters apart. That being said would I have one the answer is no.

In that vein though we also need to bring into question things like should a highly intelligent group animal be even kept at all? I had a rabbit for 10 years, he was my best friend, I kept his hutch nice and clean and was free to roam around the garden at will. Did I look after him? I feel I did but his instinct was to be out with other rabbits as part of a group. Same could be said about Parrots, Gerbils and Hamsters what about budgies, that sort of thing? Do we in breed bad traits into animal for our own aesthetic, yes we do and have done for centuries since we started domesticating animals. How many people have these new versions of dogs that seem to be in vogue at the moment? Paying thousands for the look of the dog then finding out that these dogs suffer from various ailments because of their size and shape. I personally know two people with British and French bull dogs that have had to take them to the vet because their faces were that flat due to line breeding they had breathing difficulties. Rotweilers that carry so much weight that their back ends tend to give up before the full lifespan of the dog.

I had a Jack Russel Patterdale cross, some people will probably call it a a "Patterrussel" or something these days and sell them for £850 going off the trend. Mine was a union of someone else's dog jumping over a fence when next doors dog had broke down.  I got it for free, lived 16 years and never ailed a day in its life. I think they used to call them mongrels. Most of my friends never get more than 5/6 years out of a KC registered animal.

It's certainly a contentious issue that's for sure.


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## Zeus. (18 Jun 2018)

A certain Arowana springs to mind also!


tam said:


> The Animal Welfare Act (uk) defines the following needs every owner is responsible for providing for:
> 
> (a)its need for a suitable environment,
> (b)its need for a suitable diet,
> ...



Dont think it applies to fish, we only have to look how commercial fisherman catch fish in nets and just let them suffocate to death! before going to market.

But we all have our own moral compasses to guide us. Was in Germany as seen some Arapaima in a big tank but still thought it wasnt fair on the fish IMO, Yet I have fished and caught them to 210KG at Gilhams which I thought wasnt cruel. Yet it is really.

The fish owner isnt going out of their way to be cruel, but in such a sterile environment with little interaction I wouldn't be happy myself.


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## BubblingUnder (18 Jun 2018)

zozo said:


> 90% of the most popular pedigree dog breeds already fail



90% is stretching it too far but I agree there is a problem with breed standards that put aesthetics above the health of the dog especially pugs, bulldogs etc. A little 'mongrel mutt' genetics required in the mix I think.


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## tam (18 Jun 2018)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> In that vein though we also need to bring into question things like should a highly intelligent group animal be even kept at all? I had a rabbit for 10 years, he was my best friend, I kept his hutch nice and clean and was free to roam around the garden at will. Did I look after him? I feel I did but his instinct was to be out with other rabbits as part of a group.



This is my mastermind subject .. I even have a book: https://amzn.to/2I2niiY  Yes, you did look after him to the best of your knowledge at the time. But scientific research is continually moving our knowledge on wards. We know from observation of wild rabbits and scientific research you are exactly right, rabbits do prefer company of their own kind. The research involved, for example, using weighted doors to determine the effort rabbits would go to obtain different resources like food and interaction with another rabbit. The current recommended practice is to keep rabbits in pairs or small social groups. But, we should certainly consider whether we can meet all the needs of an animal before keeping it.



			
				 [URL='https://www.ukaps.org/forum/members/bubblingunder.16030/']BubblingUnder[/URL] said:
			
		

> I'm not sure you should try to analyse this sort of thing too hard you should try to provide the best you can reasonably with the current knowledge available. [...] The problem with humans over analysing this is they can't know what an animal prefers if the brain of a fish is the size of a pea. As a trade off would I prefer a long safe life where I am fed & there is no famine or a short life in the wild with hunger & fear of predators ?



That's exactly what we should do, use scientific methods to continually analyse and work on improving our knowledge and understanding of the animals we keep and use that to make improvements to their welfare. Your preference would be for a 6x4 cell where you are always feed and protected from conflict? That's the stage a lot of animal care is at. What we are realising is that caring for physical needs is just one aspect of welfare. That challenges, interaction and even the opportunity for play are also essential to welfare. 

We can and do provide the opportunity for dogs to engage in natural behaviours related to hunting. For example, by laying scent trails, hiding objects to find, raw feeding, etc. when you start to look beyond just throwing a tennis ball there is a whole range of opportunity you can provide to encourage them to use natural instincts and abilities.

It might seem like understanding tiny fish brains would be impossible, but it's not. Scientists are working on that:

How strong are familiarity preferences in shoaling fish: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003347200916658
What about taste preferences: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1467-2979.2003.00121.x

But we can work preferences out ourselves too, from researching the choices wild fish make and observing our own. Do you fish show preference for certain foods? Will fish pick a particularly type of cave for spawning over another? If you get a big tank, and plant half of it - you'll quickly see if a species show a preference for dense cover, open water or the margins between. They key is often providing choices so you can observe your fish make them and then develop an understanding of their preferences.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (18 Jun 2018)

BubblingUnder said:


> A little 'mongrel mutt' genetics required in the mix I think.



The problem with this being the offspring are worthless as an end product, same goes for race horses, greyhounds, trail dogs and these fish apparently. Less than 5% of them are worth selling and most females are useless and probably infertile. The KC club already know in breeding causes health issues and do have guidelines but carry on regardless.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (18 Jun 2018)

tam said:


> Yes, you did look after him to the best of your knowledge at the time. But scientific research is continually moving our knowledge on wards. We know from observation of wild rabbits and scientific research you are exactly right, rabbits do prefer company of their own kind.



The reason I ended up with the Rabbit was because my brother in law bought two with an interval and they fought all the time. I looked into getting another but what it would have required was a bit of a PITA, two separate hutches and gradually introducing them to each other over a period of time time which often still doesn't work. I then ran the risk of ending up with a 2nd rabbit which I needed to re-home and to be fair the ones I saw at P@H who recommended buying at least a pair looked like they were already part of a group or even possibly siblings so didn't want to split them. Thought best to give the best life I could to the one I had.

There's been quite a good documentary on BBC2 where they've set up an underground facility to understand what's going on in the warrens and introduced a load of tame rabbits. Like the guy said on there "in every pet rabbit there's a wild rabbit waiting to come out" it didn't take long for them to revert, a matter of days actually.


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## tam (18 Jun 2018)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> The reason I ended up with the Rabbit was because my brother in law bought two with an interval and they fought all the time. I looked into getting another but what it would have required was a bit of a PITA, two separate hutches and gradually introducing them to each other over a period of time time which often still doesn't work. I then ran the risk of ending up with a 2nd rabbit which I needed to re-home and to be fair the ones I saw at P@H who recommended buying at least a pair looked like they were already part of a group or even possibly siblings so didn't want to split them. Thought best to give the best life I could to the one I had.
> 
> There's been quite a good documentary on BBC2 where they've set up an underground facility to understand what's going on in the warrens and introduced a load of tame rabbits. Like the guy said on there "in every pet rabbit there's a wild rabbit waiting to come out" it didn't take long for them to revert, a matter of days actually.



Yes, although rabbits are social, they naturally live in small family groups and fiercely defend territory against rival groups. The fights are impressive, particularly for an animal with a cute cuddly reputation. I would guess males? They often start to fight when they reach maturity. To introduce adult rabbits you usually go for opposite sex pairs (neutered) and then have to let them get to know each other on neutral territory, which as you say is time consuming and tricky. 

The documentary you mentioned was very interesting. Pet rabbits are still genetically the same as European wild rabbits, not a separate species like domesticated dogs. Their instincts and behaviour are all there it's very much nurture that makes a lot of the difference. Once you start looking at how wild rabbits live and behave, the things pet ones do make a lot more sense. They are trying to express the same behaviours, but within the confines of the limited resources we give them.


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## zozo (18 Jun 2018)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> I have to admit I wish I hadn't posted this.



Why? DOn't feel guilty... The issue should be discussed over again and can't be discussed enough..  I'tll never change if it is swept under the carpet to avoid the confrontation.. And yes indeed it's apainfull one and it aint always fair, the good has to suffer with the bad. Inevitable for any regulation or law.

Maybe that Ramshorn in the video isn't permanent in that tank, maybe it is just used to display its behaivor towards its owner and no damage done.. But than posting that still ignites a flame and it should.. In a way we should be thankfull to the maker of the video and thankfull to you to again put  the issue under attention. Because that is what this issue franticaly needs.



BubblingUnder said:


> 90% is stretching it too far


It's not my estimate.. Afaik it is officialy investigated and the percentage of the "most popular breeds" not all dog breeds.  I could be wrong with a few percent but it isn't far off. And lets be honnest even if it were 1% it still would be 1% to much.


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## Tim Harrison (18 Jun 2018)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> I have to admit I wish I hadn't posted this.


Like Marcel says, I think it's a good thing, it's sparked a very lively debate 
That's the great thing about UKAPS, most members respect others opinions, so we can have these debates without it all getting too heated and folk falling out


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## zozo (18 Jun 2018)

Zeus. said:


> Dont think it applies to fish



Depends on the country..  In Germany for example it is.. I remember a interview with aquscaper Jurijs Mit S.. He was asked to list the best fish sp. for a nano tank.
He didn't want to answer the question nor go into the subject officialy in public because of this...

If you want to go angling in Germany you need to do an exam first and pass ofcourse before you get the permit.. Than you may go and try to catch a fish.. In my country you can get the permit at any age at the post office and do what ever you like..


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## AverageWhiteBloke (18 Jun 2018)

tam said:


> The documentary you mentioned was very interesting. Pet rabbits are still genetically the same as European wild rabbits, not a separate species like domesticated dogs. Their instincts and behaviour are all there it's very much nurture that makes a lot of the difference. Once you start looking at how wild rabbits live and behave, the things pet ones do make a lot more sense. They are trying to express the same behaviours, but within the confines of the limited resources we give them.



Yeah, they discovered that rabbits breed so fast because the mother has very little to do with them other than feed milk now and again which enables the mother to spend more time grazing than bringing up young. People used to laugh at me when I said my rabbit had a toilet  Seems that's how it works though, I had a plastic container that I used to leave a little bit of  sawdust that was soaked in urine in until the rabbit associated it with its toilet and went back to it every time. The programme showed that in a warren they will dig a hole somewhere in the warren and use this purely for toilet matters...who's laughing now.



zozo said:


> Why? DOn't feel guilty... The issue should be discussed over again and can't be discussed enough..



The history of it is I follow the guy and when some people expressed interest in his non co2 tanks I invited him here to the forum to discuss them. Told him there was friendly open discussion here and we'd like to talk about his techniques. The way the post was heading last night I thought I'd inadvertently walked him into a hostile landing zone. I didn't realise how contentious these fish are so felt a bit bad about it.



Tim Harrison said:


> That's the great thing about UKAPS, most members respect others opinions, so we can have these debates without it all getting too heated and folk falling out



You guys haven't let me down and I can stand by what I said, I apologise for doubting you all. I've just seen so many of these things turn nasty before especially in Facebook groups etc but you're right, not discussing it is a far worse option. Nothing ever gets sorted that way.


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## BubblingUnder (18 Jun 2018)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> The problem with this being the offspring are worthless as an end product


I agree which is why the governing bodies need to change the 'breed standard' for different dog breeds. That way they would maintain value but eventually return to a healthier dog breed. It's a long term problem requiring a long term fix (unless cloning takes off but that's a different debate).


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## AverageWhiteBloke (18 Jun 2018)

Here's my rabbit, unfortunately he died two weeks ago at the grand old age of 10ish, not sure of exact age as I don't know how old he was when I got him but I had him ten years. Died in the best way possible lying in the sun in the garden over the bank holiday week. Just noticed he hadn't moved for a while and there you go. We buried him in the bottom of the garden and me and some guys from work gave him a good send off . Just to draw some parallels with the OP. Was he happy and healthy? I'd like to think so. Was he living in ideal conditions, that's open to interpretation. If you take something out of the wild then you have a massive responsibility, but what if something has never been wild? The only thing you can cater for is its inbuilt instinct and the OP is making his fish chase for food and providing stimulus for something that's never seen a river in its life. I suppose there's always two sides to every story.


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## mort (18 Jun 2018)

With regards to dogs, I think many true dog owners couldn't care less what they have. Our first family dog was a spaniel collie cross and she died at the ripe old age of 17.5 yrs, our next dog was a golden retriever that was pure pedigree and she had plenty of health problems before her back legs went and we had to do something at 10 yrs, after that we didn't want a pedigree but rather a cross hopefully with some hybrid vigour. Most people with pedegrees seem to have more trouble and a lot switch back to cross breeds later because of it. They are seen as a luxury so it won't matter what they are they will still have value, a friend has a lovely heinz 57 variety and she had to pay a lot for it because the pups were so in demand. I'd rather splash out the cash for one than get a pedegrees and see the vet bills overtake it in short order.


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## zozo (18 Jun 2018)

I used to have small chicken breed running around in my garden.. And one time had 2 rabbits over for the holidays, they stayed about 2 weeks. They ran around in the same space as the chicken.  Man i had fun observing it, rabbits definitively have a sense of humor.. Overall they did very well together, but now and then the rabbits liked to chase the chickens around.. For fun i guess. I realy see no other reason why else a rabbit would chase a chicken. But they did, never got physical, but sometimes if a chicken came close jump towards it making a fake attack and scare the chicken away. Minutes later they were peacefully close again. I should have recorded it on video. It only took 2 days before a chicken confiscated the rabbit-hutch to lay eggs. Anyway rabbits and chicken are an adorable pet combination.. Had a lot of laughs those 2 weeks.


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## mort (18 Jun 2018)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> The history of it is I follow the guy and when some people expressed interest in his non co2 tanks I invited him here to the forum to discuss them. Told him there was friendly open discussion here and we'd like to talk about his techniques. The way the post was heading last night I thought I'd inadvertently walked him into a hostile landing zone. I didn't realise how contentious these fish are so felt a bit bad about it.
> 
> 
> 
> You guys haven't let me down and I can stand by what I said, I apologise for doubting you all. I've just seen so many of these things turn nasty before especially in Facebook groups etc but you're right, not discussing it is a far worse option. Nothing ever gets sorted that way.



It would be really interesting to hear his opinions as we are just looking at the video and making assumptions. As I said before it looks a very well cared for fish and it might be that he tried decor and enrichment in the tank and that it had to be removed because of the fish. From what I have read or seen about them in the past, they are so destructive and ornery that you have no real sensible option but to keep them in a bare setup. For many of us that might not look right but would having a couple of rocks or driftwood that it might ignore have much affect. It's arguably no worse than putting small schoolers that like cover in a iwagumi.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (18 Jun 2018)

mort said:


> It would be really interesting to hear his opinions as we are just looking at the video and making assumptions. As I said before it looks a very well cared for fish and it might be that he tried decor and enrichment in the tank and that it had to be removed because of the fish.



Yeah I tagged him in earlier in the post to get his side then regretted it thinking he was going to get tore a new one by the purists. Not sure if he still hangs out here or just popped in when we were discussing his non co2 soil tank. Depending on his settings he may have got an email saying he'd had a mention.



mort said:


> With regards to dogs, I think many true dog owners couldn't care less what they have. Our first family dog was a spaniel collie cross and she died at the ripe old age of 17.5 yrs, our next dog was a golden retriever that was pure pedigree and she had plenty of health problems before her back legs went and we had to do something at 10 yrs, after that we didn't want a pedigree but rather a cross hopefully with some hybrid vigour. Most people with pedegrees seem to have more trouble and a lot switch back to cross breeds later because of it. They are seen as a luxury so it won't matter what they are they will still have value, a friend has a lovely heinz 57 variety and she had to pay a lot for it because the pups were so in demand. I'd rather splash out the cash for one than get a pedegrees and see the vet bills overtake it in short order.



Friend of mine has a chihuahua which suffers from explosive diarrhoea if you feed it anything except one certain brand of dog food. The vets had them try other foods to no avail so that's all it eats. The best bit of having a dog is sharing a few bits of your own food with it and it feeling part of the pack. What a life for the dog!

I've only had one dog which as mentioned was from a guy who worked dogs and had Jack Russels but the neighbours Patterdale terrier got in amongst one day by using a kennel roof to breach the compound  The one I got was the runt of the litter and the mother rejected it so we didn't think it would make it, put it in a basket with a hot water bottle and a ticking clock to simulate the mothers heartbeat and had her for 16 or so years. When I left home my parents kept her as they spent most of the time walking her anyway and I had work commitments away from home. I don't have the time a dog needs for another these days so I'll just walk someone else's when I get the chance and time. If I ever was to get another I'd just pick one from the pound. Seems pointless buying them when there's some without a home.


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## BubblingUnder (18 Jun 2018)

zozo said:


> but now and then the rabbits liked to chase the chickens around.. For fun i guess


Used to have a rabbit who chased our cat around. The cat would stalk it then get chased by the rabbit when it got too close (that bunny was rock hard).


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## zozo (18 Jun 2018)

mort said:


> It would be really interesting to hear his opinions as we are just looking at the video and making assumptions.



Read the youtube comments bellow the video..  There he gets simmular criticism of all kind and he also kinda explains his motivations why it is what it is.. So i guess he's arleady hardenet.. Nothing said here that yet isn't said there and more.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (18 Jun 2018)

Never thought of that actually, I'll check them out. I do know at some point earlier on in keeping this fish that it had smashed its head off something and had a bit of a war wound which had cleared up which would go some way to explaining the lack of hardscape.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (18 Jun 2018)

Checked the comments @zozo as in this forum lot of mixed feelings and i don't think this is Foo's final destination. However while following links I came across the King of DIY and Frank. I think he can explain things far better than I could so if you have the time watch it all. I think I might get it, not that it's for me but I sort of see the point and he explains the reason these fish are kept the way they are and why they are popular with some people. It's all about the fish, its a pet. Its not about creating a small slice of nature in our homes and our family looking at it from afar its about having a fish in your house that is part of the family. I can understand that from my Discus days when I had a pair of blue cobalts, there was something about them and the way they interacted, they were on a different level emotionally from any other fish I'd kept.

I don't think it sat well with a lot of people here because most of us are nature people who try as much as we can to replicate that. The unfortunate thing about Flowerhorns is they don't belong to nature, they're man made. A product of our own selfishness? They're here now and not much we can do about it other than treat them the best we can. Whether or not we should let the animal fade out though stopping any breeding and discourage people from buying them is another argument I guess. There's plenty of other large Cichlids with big personalities that do belong to nature to pick from. Anyway, this has been an interesting journey for me, glad the post kept going @Tim Harrison  BTW, I sort of feel empathy towards them now.


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## tam (18 Jun 2018)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Its not about creating a small slice of nature in our homes and our family looking at it from afar its about having a fish in your house that is part of the family.



A slice of nature is one way to providing an environment that allows animals to exhibit normal behaviour patterns, however, it doesn't have to be done that way. Here's an example of providing an outlet for one aspect of cats hunting instinct. No live mice involved, instead the cat hunts down balls, which it can then exchange for food, rather than having the food left sitting in a bowl. The result is a cat that uses it's brain and body more, improving fitness and mental well-being. 



For fish, depending on species, releasing food into a current so they chase down 'moving' items would be one example of adding enrichment and allowing for natural behaviour patterns.

Enrichment shouldn't take away from your relationship, if anything it adds to it. You see a much wider range of interesting behaviours and animals tend to live longer, healthier lives.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (18 Jun 2018)

What an amazing cat! there's a zoo round where I live, at a certain time of day which was the highlight they would put a side of beef at the top of a telegraph pole and release the Sumatran tigers which had to climb the pole to get the food, stopped them becoming lazy feeders and made them work for their food like they do in nature. Even when you throw a ball for a dog its just fulfilling its instinct to chase something down and fetch it back to the pack. I talked my brother out of getting one of those collars that gives a little electric shock for his dog which kept barking at passers by while he was trying to kip for night shift. That's what the dog is meant to do, he's warning the pack of something coming while other members of the pack rest and he is its pack. Its akin to the frozen snake story where the guy defrosts it and the snake bites him. You knew it was a snake when you defrosted it, you knew it was a dog when you bought it so don't expect it not behave like a dog. But then again, my brother already thinks I'm nuts anyway 

Same applies to the Flowerhorn. its instinct is to clear an area and being such a big powerful fish that's quite aggressive it will have a go anyway even with a large rock running the risk of smashing the tank or injuring itself so what do you do. I suppose the only option is to put something in there to push around that won't do any harm. The glitter ball doesn't seem so Psychopathic now does it? I was actually thinking about something like a couple of dogs rubber bones that it could shove about, imagine if I'd posted a picture of my fish with a couple of rubber bones in the tank  Ultimately he'd just put something that attracts attention in to keep the fish occupied. The fish has fulfilled some of its needs, its seen something that's caught its eye, evaluated whether it flight or fight time, decided to take it on and push it around out of its territory and more importantly kept itself entertained for a while. No harm done, just looked a bit weird to us but no weirder than say someone on a cycling machine in the gym but then driving home in the car I guess.


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## zozo (18 Jun 2018)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> A product of our own selfishness?



As so many things are, i think you kinda did hit the nail..  They are kept because they are bred and so they can and will be kept. All and all with personality features added up you could ask the question, should i keep one? And why? In respect of the fish and its true needs the answer is rather simple.. As product of our own selfishness? Now that's a somewhat different topic i guess. It equals the pedigree dog story... We do because we can, physically, realisticaly more often not but that's a later problem we try to solve along the way or can choose to ignore. 

Joey should do a remake and review of this vids topic after his fatal Arowana experience, he probably will talk little different than he did in this video and likely rewind the 9.15 scene a few times over again. No pun intented, i like the guy and i did learn a great deal from his ideas and i'm following him already for years. And what he says in that scene i can find part of myself..


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## AverageWhiteBloke (18 Jun 2018)

Its certainly opened up a lot of questions about the hobby. I watched a video the other week about a respected fish keeper and in his fish room he had a row of betta tanks with no decoration probably for ease of maintenance and cleanliness. Once a day he exercised the fish by pulling out the white plastic dividers from between the tanks so they could display to each other. Imagine being in a glass box for 23 hours then a partition removed for an hour so you could row with your neighbour then back 23 hours of nothingness.

Al lot if fish are spawned in bare tanks then moved to a community tank. If this tank is full of dayglo plastic plants, divers wrecks and no fishing signs does the fish care what they are? It only wants some cover from predators, it just looks ridiculous to us and our perception of what we think the fish wants based on some ancient ancestor it had somewhere down its lineage.


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## tam (18 Jun 2018)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> If this tank is full of dayglo plastic plants, divers wrecks and no fishing signs does the fish care what they are? It only wants some cover from predators, it just looks ridiculous to us and our perception of what we think the fish wants based on some ancient ancestor it had somewhere down its lineage.



I think you are right, they probably don't care - we have the concept of a 'ship wreck' but to a fish it's just a weirdly shaped rock and still provides cover. We know that wool spawning mops are often attractive to fish, even though they are unnatural materials. You could certainly investigate things like plastic plant colour and fish preference. Maybe there are colours they prefer over others in terms of camouflage or even colours that would be considered dangerous. I don't think you'd always find that things that were very unnatural looking to us were offensive to fish. Just like some 'natural' appearing decoration might be unsuitable - rough gravel for corys for example.

I think if rubber bones gave him the opportunity to play out natural behaviours without causing harm then it would be a brilliant idea. Like you say, it's still providing an outlet for all those instincts even if the youtube comments would be an interesting read!


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## zozo (18 Jun 2018)

Not so long ago i saw this at a local LFS.. It kinda shocked me, looked at the shops clerck and said wtf is this.. He looked at me like i was from another planet and replied it's quite common and normal. I din't go into it any further, it's beyond any help...


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## AverageWhiteBloke (18 Jun 2018)

"I think if rubber bones gave him the opportunity to play out natural behaviours without causing harm then it would be a brilliant idea"

 From what I've seen so far they also like to get their teeth into things as well so it will give them something practice on instead of their owners fingers 

Pushing a rubber bone about would be no different in the fish 's head than pushing a lp of wood out of its spawning territory.

Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


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## lazybones51 (19 Jun 2018)

zozo said:


> Not so long ago i saw this at a local LFS.. It kinda shocked me, looked at the shops clerck and said wtf is this.. He looked at me like i was from another planet and replied it's quite common and normal. I din't go into it any further, it's beyond any help...



There's a store fairly local to me with a display very similar to this. I was new to the hobby at the time and knew nothing of Betta's, so I was shocked to see fish kept in such cramped conditions. I've not been there since... which is a shame as they have some nice items in stock.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (19 Jun 2018)

Marginally better than my LFS who used to leave them in the bags they came in 

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## Zeus. (19 Jun 2018)

zozo said:


> If you want to go angling in Germany you need to do an exam first and pass ofcourse before you get the permit..



Wasn't aware of that  Well the Germans have it right IMO, too many anglers dont look after the environment IMO.


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## zozo (19 Jun 2018)

Zeus. said:


> Wasn't aware of that  Well the Germans have it right IMO, too many anglers dont look after the environment IMO.



That's indeed what happens in my country.. Always find nylon lines on the floor and other crap.. In a way it commes handy to find evidence of poaching on waters without permition. They always leaf something behing, empty cans, lines. broken floaters, bottles etc. Uneducated dirtbags.. And that's different in Germany.. I remember thay also had a law, that you need to kill any fish you catch and take it home, eat it or make petfood what ever. Releasing a stressed and wounded fish was not permited. That's why German anglers never were welcome on Dutch waters so to speak. Because our regulation is contrary, throw it back so another angler can have fun later. For so far you can call that fun or a sport at all. I always called angling for sport "malicious pleasure".. Anyway Dutch anglers always accused and cry baby about the German anglers from stealing fish. Nowadays i believe the law is modarated since the high popularity of carp fishing. Tho carp dish is still considered a delicasy in Germany, it's something they make during silvester like americans make turkey for thanksgiving.

But indeed Germans are pretty Gründlich and educate the kids in a fair way about invironment. Overall their law system is rather fair instead of crooked.. For example we pay monthly road tax calculated over the weight of the car, even if you don't drive the darn thing you pay full tax. It'sactualy called ownership tax.. what kind of person thinks of this crazy tax law.. In Germany you pay no road taxat all but emmision tax, dirty car you pay a lot, invironmental friendly car you pay less. Very simple and very fair people get stimulated to build a catalisis in their car and it pays back.

Rather remarkeble that our goverment complains about invironment but when it comes to educating and stimulate the public they lak because then the need to change the system and that means a lot of work it will cost money.. Rather lazy than tired, complain and leave it as is.. Idiots..


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## BubblingUnder (19 Jun 2018)

zozo said:


> throw it back so another angler can have fun later. For so far you can call that fun or a sport at all. I always called angling for sport


Anglers return fish in many countries (with quotas for taking some) this is due to that popularity of the sport & so that it doesn't affect fish stocks which is especially important in smaller countries such as the UK. Anglers also fund legal action against polluters who kill fish by releasing chemicals that organisation is called 'Fish Legal' in the UK. They are also generally speaking the first to report fish deaths by pollution to the authorities reducing mortality. See this link for fish legal http://www.fishlegal.net/ . Anglers also create & maintain aquatic environments without them many aquatic habits & their wildlife would have been destroyed for farming.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (30 Jun 2018)

Regardless of where you stand on the Flowerhorn subject you need to check the same guys no filter no co2 tank. Amazing tank with amazing camera work. I could watch it all night.


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## alto (30 Jun 2018)

Regards that Betta display system, shop Bettas do much better in this system than the still (sealed!) cups used by many big box chains, the tiny bags are meant for shipping only & it's expected that Bettas will be transferred to freshwater at destination ... 
The biggest problem with this display system is shop staff that don't do any water changes, though at least fish are fed & are able to extend their fins without touching the cup sides
At sale, the container & Betta are sold as a unit, so new Bettas always go into clean cups (of course that's of limited  use if no water changes are done) 
This is designed as a holding system with the assumption that Bettas will sell on each week (& most do)

Another problem with this system is breakdowns which are rarely repaired - it needs a good bit of maintenance to run properly & few shops do this ... too costly???  I've no idea ... But the system was developed with the idea of improving shop life for Bettas

It's usually easy enough to sort out the shops that care for their Bettas - regardless of display system - I've seen obviously ill/depressed Bettas displayed in 2-4 litre jars, & healthy/active Bettas in the Elive systems 

This is a well worth the time article including photos/video from Melbourne Betta visit to Thailand (in search of breeding stock)


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## alto (30 Jun 2018)

> Amazing tank with amazing camera work. I could watch it all night.



X 10000


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