# Help! My CRS are acting really odd/ dying?!?!?



## Vinkenoog1977 (17 Jul 2014)

Hey guys,

Just a quick, panicky question; my Crystal Reds are going nuts, and by that I mean, suddenly swimming a short distance, sometimes upwards, other times straight forward, and then "passing out" for a while; they sink down on their backs, and just lay there for a bit. They all look very lethargic at the moment.
Things were fine until about a half an hour ago, when I decided to do some trimming and a WC (50%); it basically started when I started trimming. My hands were not tainted with anything as far as I know, and the water parameters are all just fine, and identical to normal. Maybe stress, but that would be a first, they've never acted like this when I was doing maintenance before.
What could be causing this, and should I be worried? It looks like they're all about to keel over. 

Any help is welcome, did a quick Google, but found nothing.

Thanks!


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## BigTom (17 Jul 2014)

Did you add any new plants? This sounds precisely like the insecticide poisoning that a number of us have experienced when adding plants imported from the far east.

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/warning-shrimp-and-pesticides.19609/#post-198862
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/wipe-out.19481/page-5#post-202007

Either way, I'd recommend doing a further 95% water change (or even two). Dilution is your only chance here really, otherwise I'd expect a very high mortality rate by tomorrow. I guess the worst possible situation if you haven't added anything new to the tank is your water supply being contaminated with something, in which case netting the shrimp into a bucket containing water from a different tank might be the best option, if possible.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news and good luck.


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## allan angus (17 Jul 2014)

did u add any easycarbo ?


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## Vinkenoog1977 (17 Jul 2014)

Thanks for the reply Tom.

And no, no new plants at all, and as said, it started before the water change, during trimming, and before that, everything was fine.

I do have some planaria in this tank, only noticed them earlier this week, and have taken most out by hand, and was planning on using Biomax No-Planaria to kill off the rest (haven't used it, cause it was on backorder); could the planaria have anything to do with it? Can't imagine since, again, it started when I was trimming the plants.
Could it simply be stress? Every time I walk to the tank to check them out, they freak out again.

Will do two more BIG WC, if this keeps up.

Thanks again![DOUBLEPOST=1405609081][/DOUBLEPOST]No, no easyCarbo Allan.


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## BigTom (17 Jul 2014)

I'm dubious about either trimming stress or planaria as a trigger to be honest. Your description does perfectly match the sort of neurotoxic reaction some of us have had the misfortune of seeing previously but I guess there could be another cause. Get water changing


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## Vinkenoog1977 (17 Jul 2014)

Already on it!


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## kirk (17 Jul 2014)

Hi, I was thinking temperature, ours are going mad at the moment, with the heat( weather)You haven't nocked your heater dial have you whilst trimming ? Our lights are off korilina is churning the surface and they are settling down with the higher oxygen.As for your unwanted guests I've just treated our sons tank with crs using cat wormer powder diluted in ro Un measured and just poured it in over two days no shrimp lost and all planaria seem to have gone.  I have read others have done this so I thought I'd try it on a small no of lower grades. First treatment was a week ago.     The main of our shrimp are going tomorrow as I don't have time at the moment and I don't want to go away and come home to a floor covered in dried up shrimp.  on the plus side our sons tank will have the nicest looking ones and I'm going to gass my plants  in the lounge tank..... again once there's no crs cbs in there.


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## Vinkenoog1977 (17 Jul 2014)

First, well, actually second off course, WC is done. Will wait an hour, and then do another one. Things are looking not good.[DOUBLEPOST=1405610342][/DOUBLEPOST]Hey Kirk. Temp was the first thing I thought off, but that's a stable 24 C, as always. Was thinking maybe a lack of oxygen, but then I would again expect there to be some gradual change in behaviour, and not just when I do maintenance. I hate coincidences.
I did shut off the CO2, not that there is too much going in there, but was planning on quitting CO2 on this tank, because of the insane amount of growth per week. I have some decent surface movement as well.

No (positive) changes so far.


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## Michael W (17 Jul 2014)

Did you or someone around you use any aerosols/perfume or smoke around the tank? That could cause problems to shrimps. I've almost lost a colony of red cherries due to a family guest spraying perfume around my tank while I was out.


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## kirk (17 Jul 2014)

If I'm honest co2 has given me nothing but sleepless nights days lost pacing up and down past the tank checking on our little beauties. I will never run hightec with crs again it's hard enough to keep the balance right with plants and putting crs into the equation makes it harder( I hardly use ferts with the crs as I'm scared I'll kill them).. I think they are much happier low tech my 9yr old son has proved this with his lowtec tank only changing water once a fortnight clever little devil.    I think your water change hopefully will sort yours out. Did you say you use ro?[DOUBLEPOST=1405611183][/DOUBLEPOST]Oh forgot to say good luck fingers crossed for you and hope you or one of us on here work out the problem, just try not to panic like I have to many times.


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## Vinkenoog1977 (17 Jul 2014)

Michael: no perfume or aerosols. I do smoke, but not directly around the tank.

Kirk: I'm going low tech with them as well, same with the Crystal Blacks; just disconnected the CO2 on that one as well. And I don't use RO, just tap water with Seachem Prime. They still look miserable, most of them, the little ones are losing some colour as well (which brings me back to maybe stress???), but some others appear to be going back to normal.
And no panic, not too much I can do, besides another WC. Thanks for the help so far guys!


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## kirk (17 Jul 2014)

Ah I see.  What is your tds? Our water is coming out of the tap today at  395-420 so I need ro here.


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## Vinkenoog1977 (17 Jul 2014)

Don't have a TDS-meter.[DOUBLEPOST=1405611917][/DOUBLEPOST]NO3 = 0
NO2 = 0
GH = ~12
KH = ~7
PH = 7,4
Cl2 = 0


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## dw1305 (17 Jul 2014)

Hi all,





Vinkenoog1977 said:


> And I don't use RO, just tap water with Seachem Prime


Because you had just done a water change, I'd be suspicious of the tap water. 

Do you have any rain-water or RO you could use to do another water change?

cheers Darrel


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## kirk (17 Jul 2014)

I put my money on your water then, tds too high maybe something in it they don't like , I could be wrong  I lied earlier I've just checked my water and it's coming out of the tap at over 500!!!!.[DOUBLEPOST=1405612272][/DOUBLEPOST]You beat me to it darrel


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## Vinkenoog1977 (17 Jul 2014)

Darrell: the thing is, they started with this behaviour BEFORE I did the first WC, it started when I was trimming the plants!

Kirk: if that were the case, wouldn't my CBS be freaking out as well, as I did maintenance + WC on their tank as well, and they are just fine.


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## BigTom (17 Jul 2014)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,Because you had just done a water change, I'd be suspicious of the tap water.
> 
> Do you have any rain-water or RO you could use to do another water change?
> 
> cheers Darrel



I think he said it started when trimming before he did a WC Darrel, so hopefully the tap water is OK.


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## Michael W (17 Jul 2014)

Also this may be far fetching but do you know if there are any maintenance involving pipe works etc to do with how the water will arrive at your tap around your area? If there is there may likely be more chlorine than usual going into the water because of the works. It's not unheard of that this can be problematic to aquarium life.

Edit: Ignore that then if it was before water changes.


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## Vinkenoog1977 (17 Jul 2014)

Things seem to be calming down a bit; the adults appear to have recovered, pretty much, the little ones are still having a bit of a tough time, even though they are no longer jumping all over the place, and are, slowly, starting to clean some hairgrass (and by slowly, I mean their actual pace).[DOUBLEPOST=1405612668][/DOUBLEPOST]Double checked, and even did a quick test on the tap water itself, before Seachem Prime, and that's just fine, even chlorine is well below the limit!

I still think it was just stress, I saw the same behaviour when I ordered some shrimp online, and they arrived in a right state, completely lost their colour, and were going mental. I just don't know what stressed them out so bad.[DOUBLEPOST=1405612806][/DOUBLEPOST]P.S.: no work on the water mains, and the TDS from the tap should be around 130 (according to my water supplier), with a conductivity of 125 mS/m.


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## Vinkenoog1977 (17 Jul 2014)

The adults appear to be recovering, as are some of the little ones, but most of the small ones are losing all their colour, and are becoming translucent. Will do another 90% WC now.


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## allan angus (17 Jul 2014)

good luck sounds like the water changes are having a positive ( if slow ) effect


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## Vinkenoog1977 (17 Jul 2014)

Things are looking bleak, especially for the little ones. Did another 90% WC, don't know what else could do, another WC seems pointless at this moment.














[DOUBLEPOST=1405616744][/DOUBLEPOST]The only thing I can think of, is that I must have had something on my hands, The scissors are exclusively used for my aquariums, so those can be ruled out. The only thing I did before trimming, was washing my hands in the sink with some detergent, eat some lettuce, fed the dog, with some handwashing in between. This is really bugging me.


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## BigTom (17 Jul 2014)

That must be hugely frustrating. If it definitely isn't your water then you're down to real marginal stuff like pesticide on the lettuce or flea treatment on the dog, etc, none of which are going to be readily confirmable.


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## Vinkenoog1977 (17 Jul 2014)

BigTom said:


> That must be hugely frustrating. If it definitely isn't your water then you're down to real marginal stuff like pesticide on the lettuce or flea treatment on the dog, etc, none of which are going to be readily confirmable.



I was actually thinking something along the lines of the pesticide on the lettuce. If it was some external poisonous substance, it has been diluted as much as it can be with one 50% and two 90% WC. Will leave it as is for now, and see what the morrow brings.

Thanks for all the help guys!


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## Vinkenoog1977 (17 Jul 2014)

Knock on wood, but I am seeing some positive signs from most of them, even the little ones! They are back upright again, and appear to be starting the normal routine of cleaning the grasses and mosses. Still very early though, but I'm cautiously optimistic.


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## kirk (17 Jul 2014)

Great stuff, keep us posted.


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## Michael W (17 Jul 2014)

It's probably best if you shut the aquarium lights off to reduce stress. When I see fish or inverts acting weirdly I'll close the lights, and add in an air stone+ Pump for oxygen followed up by a water change which you are doing.


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## Vinkenoog1977 (17 Jul 2014)

Lights are off, did so right after the last WC. But things are looking grim, I may have been premature regarding their recovery.


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## parotet (17 Jul 2014)

I noticed exactly the same effects on my red cherry shrimps some months ago. Actually I lost some of them. I checked temperature, I did 2 WC... It was all very strange to me. Finally I knew that someone had sprayed the plants with pesticides the day before, quite close to the place where I have my buckets. So, a bit windy, some tiny amount of pesticides on your equipment and you got it. They are so small that very small amounts of pesticides are lethal. Fish for example didn't seem to be affected.

Jordi


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## Vinkenoog1977 (17 Jul 2014)

Hey Jordi,

That's why I'm thinking it must have been something on my hands, maybe some washing up liquid, maybe pesticides from the lettuce I ate just before, maybe a trace amount of flee drops which I gave my dog 5 days ago, after petting him. That's all I can come up with, I don't use aerosols or pesticides, and I hardly ever wear aftershave or anything like that.
Will see what things look like in the morning, but I'm preparing for the worst.


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## BigTom (17 Jul 2014)

Vinkenoog1977 said:


> maybe a trace amount of flee drops which I gave my dog 5 days ago, after petting him



That would be my bet. Can you check your drops to see what the active ingredients are? A lot of them contain insect neurotoxins such as pyrethrins/pyrethroids which could produce the behavioural effects you observed.


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## Vinkenoog1977 (17 Jul 2014)

Imidacloprid and Permethrine. Do those fall into the category you mentioned?

Just took a peek with a flashlight, and most are moving, still lethargic, but no obvious deaths so far. Some of them do look pale as they saw the devil in person, the red having gone an almost see-through greyish.


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## BigTom (17 Jul 2014)

Vinkenoog1977 said:


> Imidacloprid and Permethrine. Do those fall into the category you mentioned?
> 
> Just took a peek with a flashlight, and most are moving, still lethargic, but no obvious deaths so far. Some of them do look pale as they saw the devil in person, the red having gone an almost see-through greyish.



Yes both of those are insect neurotoxins and would explain the shrimp response - permethrine causes nerves to repeatedly fire, hence the sudden erratic movements.

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2111&aid=598

Unfortunately I'm not sure how long those chemicals are likely to persist in an aquarium, but it gives you something to look for anyway. I'd be very careful in the future about washing your hands before doing tank maintenance if you've been handling your dog. I guess it could be a red herring, but this seems the most likely explanation to me now.


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## Vinkenoog1977 (17 Jul 2014)

Well, thank god I'm kinda OCD, so from now on I'll be washing my hands, than rinse thoroughly, and dry using the towels I use for my tanks. 

Best cause I can come up with myself as well. Am dreading tomorrow morning. 

Thanks for all the input Tom, much obliged!


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## Vinkenoog1977 (18 Jul 2014)

Well, there are some survivors, but not a lot as far as I can tell with lights off. Will wait till lights come on this afternoon, and tally up my losses. Gutted.


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## Adam humphries (18 Jul 2014)

Did they make it through the nite vikenoog ?


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## BigTom (18 Jul 2014)

Vinkenoog1977 said:


> Well, there are some survivors, but not a lot as far as I can tell with lights off. Will wait till lights come on this afternoon, and tally up my losses. Gutted.



Sorry to hear that. I remember the feeling well, it's not nice at all.


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## dw1305 (18 Jul 2014)

Hi all,





Vinkenoog1977 said:


> maybe a trace amount of flee drops which I gave my dog 5 days ago, after petting him


 I'm sure "BigTom" is right, and that is almost certainly the answer.

Pyrethroids are highly toxic but tend to have a sudden effect and not persist. 

Have a look at this post, it covers Imidacloprid, but you probably won't like the content.

Unfortunately neonicotinoids (like Imidacloprid) are a different story.
<http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/wipe-out.19481/page-5#post-202007>.

cheers Darrel


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## allan angus (18 Jul 2014)

ohh dear sorry to hear the bad news hope you can save at lest som of them


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## Vinkenoog1977 (18 Jul 2014)

I'm afraid Tom was right, and it was the flea drops. Will be ultra careful off course in future.

Some of the little ones have survived, and a few of the adults, but the berried lady is gone. Time to see what the score is.


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## Vinkenoog1977 (18 Jul 2014)

Well, in the end, I lost around 20 little ones, and only 1 adult, the big, berried mama. Not as bad as it could have been, thanks to Tom's quick replies, but I'm still pretty bummed.


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## Fern (18 Jul 2014)

Sorry to hear about this  
I have a dog so will wear disposable gloves next time I dose him for fleas/ticks, just to be on the safe side. Had always washed my hands thoroughly after, but just goes to show how careful one must be during and after using treatments and the like for other pets.


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## Vinkenoog1977 (18 Jul 2014)

Fern said:


> Sorry to hear about this
> I have a dog so will wear disposable gloves next time I dose him for fleas/ticks, just to be on the safe side. Had always washed my hands thoroughly after, but just goes to show how careful one must be during and after using treatments and the like for other pets.



I dosed him Sunday afternoon, and did maintenance yesterday; it was from giving him a pet on the back, on my way from the kitchen, to the tank; that's all it takes, so it's more a case of washing your hands thoroughly before you dip them in the tank, and not do anything in between washing and the tank. It sounds extreme, but from what I can now attest to, it only takes the tiniest trace amount of the stuff to do damage.


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## Fern (18 Jul 2014)

Vinkenoog1977 said:


> it was from giving him a pet on the back, on my way from the kitchen, to the tank; that's all it takes, so it's more a case of washing your hands thoroughly before you dip them in the tank, and not do anything in between washing and the tank



An awful way to learn a lesson, hope the rest are ok.


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## Vinkenoog1977 (18 Jul 2014)

They're acting as if nothing ever happened.


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## kirk (24 Jul 2014)

Yea watch your sun cream too guys and gals, I did it yesterday after putting some on the kids..went onto do tank routine. a few later bunny hoping shrimp after a hoover and top up, this thread reminded me to think and not pannic. it took me a filter clean and at least 70 percent water change to settle them Down. Only one shrimp on the floor that a got back in the tank.   I washed my hand well before I touched the tank but I will wash upto the elbow with soap then again with ro now.   Glad your shrimp have settled sad to hear you lost some though.


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## X3NiTH (24 Jul 2014)

Yes sunscreen is a big issue for aquatic life, so much so that absolutely none was to be used on our speedboat prior to getting into the water with the feeding Whale Sharks. While I looked a complete tit and received a few sniggers for wearing uv protective tights and a long sleeve rashie with a bandana on my head I wasn't the one hiding under towels from the sun while seated in a reflective white tub under a cloudless tropical sun, lol!


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## kirk (24 Jul 2014)

Oh no..... I'm trying to forget about the tropics.  I had my shorts on today that I wore in the caribean earlier in the year.when we went into a 80 degree mud bath / spring,  they still stink of sulphur it will never wash out. ( trying not to think about St Lucia so I'm not going to ware them again)  Whale sharks that sounds awsome maybe a bit scary regardless of what they eat.


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## X3NiTH (24 Jul 2014)

I posted a vid of my jaunt in the off-topic forum if you're interested. I managed to cremate the front of my legs about 10 years ago whilst spending the entire time under the shade on Phi Phi, went to bed and woke up in the morning unable to stand. I find sunscreen pretty useless for my attention span, hence the cover up.


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## kirk (24 Jul 2014)

Nice one, I will take a look.


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## Fern (24 Jul 2014)

Can you buy aquarium safe long sleeve gloves?. Never looked before, but think now would be a good purchase. Vet gloves be ok you think? One time use, then throw away.


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## kirk (24 Jul 2014)

Yes I imagine you can.


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## Fern (24 Jul 2014)




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## Lindy (25 Jul 2014)

kirk said:


> Yes I imagine you can.[/quote]
> 
> Close relations?


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## kirk (25 Jul 2014)

no one in our family has knees that good. Sorry was the only pic of barnacle boy and mermaidman that I could click on and download simply on my handset., I wanted the cartoon spongebob one.


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## Lindy (25 Jul 2014)

Lol....


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## Fern (25 Jul 2014)

Any good you think?
http://www.yorkvetsupplies.co.uk/product/krutex-armlength-soft-green-examination-gloves/

Overkill on the length  but not bad value. Box of 100 should last a while!


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## kirk (25 Jul 2014)

Less than a penny each not bad, just check they're not coated in that powdery stuff. I don't know if I'd personally want a box with EXAMINATION GLOVES written all over it that I could forget I've left in the lounge should anyone pop round and see it I'd never live it down.   even worse a used one


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