# EI Mixture Help



## Paks (17 Nov 2015)

So I finally got a source of nitrate from Calcium Nitrate from a product of

YaraLiva Tropicote:
Calcium(CaO) 26.03%
Nitrogen 15.5% (14.4% nitrate & 1.1 ammonium)

Potassium Sulfate and Magnesium Sulfate.

So i need someone to make me a mixture for my 2gal tank and i want the solution in 500ml. I used a calculator but i dont know how to mix them together.  Im calling @ceg4048 hehehe. Thanks in advance.

Does the standard ppm of any tank must be 20-30ppm for N & K and Magnesium 10ppm ? And last, how do you guys handles or store these chemicals?


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## ian_m (17 Nov 2015)

Not sure this is suitable as it contains ammonium which is toxic to fish. The safety data sheet also lists toxic to fish and interestingly aquatic plants, though in much larger doses.

This looks like it actually contains "nitric acid ammonium calcium" what ever that is.


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## Paks (17 Nov 2015)

Hmmmmmmm it sounds bad in how the way you explain it. I dont have any ideas in terms with chemical input. But ill wait for Clives comment if theres a possible usage of this Calcium nitrate. Thanks mate


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## ceg4048 (17 Nov 2015)

N from Nitrate 15.5%
Nitrogen is 23% of NO3
0.155/0.23 = 0.67 = 67% by weight of NO3

N from Ammonia is 1%
Nitrogen is 82% of NH3
0.01/0.82 = 0.0122 = 1.2% by weight of NH3

1 gram of powder therefore will consist of 0.67 grams of NO3 and 0.012 grams of Ammonia.

ppm (parts per million) is defined milligrams of solute (powder) / kilogram of solvent (water).

So putting 1g (1000mg) of powder (which has 670mg NO3) in 0.5Kg of water nets you 670mg/0.5Kg = 1340ppm NO3 in your solution. That's the strength of your solution. It will also have 12mg/0.5Kg = 24ppm of Ammonia in the bottle.

Now, lets just look at how much NO3 and NH3 will be dosed with each mililiter. 670mg NO3 is divided evenly into 500ml of water, so each ml of solution delivers 670mg/500ml = 1.34mg NO3 per ml of solution. It also delivers 12mg/500ml = 0.024mg NH3 per ml.

If this is a CO2 injected tank, and if we intend to follow Barr's reference values of 20ppm per week in 3 even doses, then each dose should deliver roughly 7ppm per dose.

A 2gal (8L) tank doesn't really have 2gal of water in it but I'll use that number for the calculations and adjust it later because we want to look at the implications of adding NH3. If we were not using a mix with NH3 I would never consider this factor.

Again, the ppm calculation is: Solute-mg/Solvent-Kg and we want the value to equal 7ppm. So:
Solute-mg/8kg = 7ppm ==> Solute-mg = (7ppm)*(8Kg) = 56mg

Since each ml of solution delivers 1.34mg of NO3 we need 56mg/1.34mg = 42ml per dose.

Now let's check how much ammonia we are adding with this dose:
42ml @ 0.024mg NH3 per ml = 1.01mg NH3 per dose.

1.01mgNH3/8Kg = 0.126ppm NH3 per dose. This is a LOT, as Ian pointed out. It's about 4 times higher than the EPA recommended amount. But there are so many factors. There is a reaction that occurs where NH3 ionizes and become NH4, which is about 50 times less toxic than NH3. How much of the NH3 that ionizes into NH4 depends on pH of the tank. At low pH there is a high ionization rate but at high pH the ionization rate is lower. The toxic effects are more severe at higher temperatures. The microbes in the tank, as well as the plants convert or consume NH3/NH4 rapidly, so that if the tank is mature, the exposure to toxicity is less than if the tank is immature. If the tank is CO2 injected then the pH will fall, reducing the toxicity, but by how much is dependent on injection rate as well as the buffering of the water, so water with high alkalinity (KH) will have less pH drop and soft water will have a deeper drop in pH and lower toxicity.

If this is a non- injected low tech tank then you may be playing with fire as the pH tends to be higher, generally speaking.

I think to be on the safe side, to start with, if this were your only option for a CO2 injected tank, I would add not more than 1/5th gram of powder to the 500ml of water. You may want to make a further reduction to adjust for the fact that you do not really have 8L of water, typically there is only 80% of the rated tank size due to gravel, rocks, plants and fish. So you could reduce the powder amount by another 20% or use 20% more water in the solution.

Remember that EI dosing schemes are all about CO2 injected tanks. If this is a low tech tank then you should reduce these values by another 5-10 times.

Cheers,


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## Paks (17 Nov 2015)

i read it thrice and finally understand the calculation. Regarding the ammonia its really is a problem. by the way clive im injecting co2 viay diy. 

Thanks  a lot for the explanation. i dont know if ill follow the calculation with my k2so4 & mgso4 since i used by james calculator and has these solution:

1.5 teaspoon ~ 7.65 g of k2s04 mix to 230ml, gives me 9.07ppm of K per 5ml dosage. im just confuse. anyways thanks a lot Clive

Cheeeers !


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## ceg4048 (18 Nov 2015)

You're welcome mate. As I mentioned, you can simply reduce the amount of powder you add or mix 1 gram of powder in 2000ml (instead of 500ml) in order to reduce the toxicity by a factor of 4. The calculations are "linear", which means that everything is proportional. The good news is that NH3/NH4 delivers a much higher percentage of N, so even though you reduce the quantity, you will still have a good amount of N. That's why commercial fertilizers, even the aquatic ones like Tropica and Profito use Ammonium compounds in their Nitrogen mixes.

You just have to be careful and perhaps dose more frequently. If you are using gas CO2 and if the tank is mature, then the toxicity can be managed by more frequent and less concentrated dosing. The plants will grab as much NH3/NH4 as they can and the filter and sediment microbes will grab the rest and convert it to NO3.

I generally don't like using Ammoniacal  or Carbamide(Urea) compounds specifically because of this toxicity issue, but if you have no other choice for obtaining Nitrogen, then use them, but be more precise and more attentive. That's why using Nitrate compounds frees you of these responsibilities and worries.

James' calculation are fine, no worries there. His calculations are also linear and they do not require precision. Just grab 3 teaspoons of that powders and dump them into a convenient bottle size like 500ml. Dose 5ml 3 times a week. Stop worry about ppm. The plants use a wide range of Potassium and it doesn't really matter if you use too much or of you are just short of the target. It's only Ammonia that you have to worry about. Everything else you can just Estimate and you'll be fine.

Cheers,


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## Paks (20 Nov 2015)

My problem now is how can i achieve 250mg of Ca(NO3)2 since 1 teaspoon = 6grams (from a random forum) if i wanted to mix to 500ml of solution. If i add 1/8 teaspoon of it to 500ml how much dosage do you think i must introduce to my tank ceg? 1/8 is around 750 mg of Ca(NO3)2. So if im going to follows above dosage, assuming ill mix 1/8 t.s calnit (assuming 1/8 t.s is equivalent to 1gram, dont have small scale) for 500ml, then ill just dose 42/4 =  *10.5ml.  *Whats your thoughts clive ? Thanks


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## ceg4048 (20 Nov 2015)

Hi Paks,
           The best way, if you don't have a scale is by dilution. Again, you don't have to be super accurate. 6 grams is 24 time more than you want, so add the teaspoon to (24x0.5L) 12 liters of water, or add half teaspoon (about 3 grams) to 6L of water.

Cheers,


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## Paks (20 Nov 2015)

i want a small cointainer Clive thats why im avoiding 1L or higher. I believe a saw a thread in BARR forum, where he mix 1 gram to 1L, from 1L he extracted to 10ml then mix it to lets say 980L to gain that PPM. Hmmmmm


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## Paks (20 Nov 2015)

This is what im trying to say Clive. I cant seem to follow Barrs guide. Please elaborate, thanks.

Here's a way to make 10, 20, 30 and 40 ppm NO3 reference solutions:

Add 1.631 g of KNO3 to 1 L DI/RO water. This makes a 1000 ppm NO3 solution. (It's really a 1000.29 ppm solution.)

Add 2 mL of the 1000 ppm solution to 18 mL of DI/RO water. This makes 20 mL of a 100 ppm NO3 solution.

Add 15 mL of the 100 ppm solution to 15 mL of DI/RO water. This makes 30 mL of a 50 ppm NO3 solution.

To make a 10 ppm NO3 solution:
Add 2 mL of the 50 ppm solution to 8 mL of DI/RO water. This makes 10 mL of a 10 ppm NO3 solution.

To make a 20 ppm NO3 solution:
Add 4 mL of the 50 ppm solution to 6 mL of DI/RO water. This makes 10 mL of a 20 ppm NO3 solution.

To make a 30 ppm NO3 solution:
Add 6 mL of the 50 ppm solution to 4 mL of DI/RO water. This makes 10 mL of a 30 ppm NO3 solution.

To make a 40 ppm NO3 solution:
Add 8 mL of the 50 ppm solution to 2 mL of DI/RO water. This makes 10 mL of a 40 ppm NO3 solution.

i dont know if we can apply this


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## ceg4048 (23 Nov 2015)

Hi Paks,
             Effectively he is doing the same thing by diluting the strong stock solution progressively. The method is referred to as "serial dilution"  where you make a stock solution of known strength, then take a small amount of that solution and add it to water. 

There are a couple of things that's a little confusing in your posts, maybe I'm misreading what you wrote:
Firstly, it's so easy to add a teaspoon to a 12 liter bucket. I mean surely you can find a 12L or 6L container around the house? You don't have to _store _the 12L or 6L, just keep 500ml of it and throw the rest away in the garden. If you have a mango tree in your garden dump the remainder there. You will get awesome mangos next summer.

Secondly, how did you come up with the 980L figure? I believe Barr's instructions to get the reference solutions of 10, 20, 30 and 40 ppm were his method of building standard known concentration solutions for calibrating Nitrate test kits for those poor saps still clinging to their test kits.

In any case, I don't see how this applies. All you will end up with is solutions with those listed concentration. That doesn't help you to get the desired concentration in your tank. It will be a LOT easier to beg, borrow or steal a bucket that can hold 12L of water.

Cheers,


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## Paks (24 Nov 2015)

Thanks Clive, i can see myself as "im just making myself problematic" hahaha. Thanks clive. Cheers!


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## jiraiya (3 Jan 2016)

I just learnt this the hard way... apparently there's 1 drawback of using calcium nitrate instead of potassium nitrate as a source of nitrogen in EI. Calcium nitrate CAN'T be mixed with potassium sulphate and/or monopotassium phosphate to create a convenient macros solution. 

http://www.growcom.com.au/_uploads/LWR/Fertigation Compatability and Solubility.pdf


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ltsai (4 Jan 2016)

Can you elaborate why is it not compatible? 

Sent from my Mi 4i using Tapatalk


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## jiraiya (4 Jan 2016)

ltsai said:


> Can you elaborate why is it not compatible?
> 
> Sent from my Mi 4i using Tapatalk


I'm not quite sure, still learning about it myself. I hope someone in this forum can share their expertise/ experience too .

What I've read so far, is that the Calcium in the Calcium Nitrate will react with other elements to form Calcium Sulphate and/or Calcium Phosphate... err ... something like that. I tried to mix Calcium Nitrate + Monopotassium Phosphate + Potassium Sulphate and what I got is a white insoluble powder in my bottled water. Like putting some chalk powder into water.

I'm still googling about "Fertigation Compatibility", it showed me charts showing various ferts that Calcium Nitrate is not compatible with, but doesn't really tell us why.


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## dw1305 (4 Jan 2016)

Hi all, 





jiraiya said:


> Calcium in the Calcium Nitrate will react with other elements to form Calcium Sulphate and/or Calcium Phosphate... err ... something like that. I tried to mix Calcium Nitrate + Monopotassium Phosphate + Potassium Sulphate and what I got is a white insoluble powder in my bottled water. Like putting some chalk powder into water.


That is the answer, all nitrates and potassium containing are soluble, but nearly all phosphates (and calcium sulphate) are insoluble. This is a particular problem in alkaline water.  

cheers Darrel


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