# support required please



## Chris Tinker (4 Oct 2019)

please see attached photos as this will best describe the problem.

i stripped back the plants 3 weeks ago as i was not using EI but some off the shelf product. the plants where pretty much all algae free, clean, roots trimmed, stems trimmed, more substrate added etc etc

regular weekly water change and EI in place. not missed a day.

co2 is inline injected. i have a good green on the checker. on for 1 hour before and off 30 minutes before lights turn off.

lights are 3 x 30w LEDS 5 hrs or 6 cant remember. 

flow seems good over the plant area.

why is this so much harder than 5 years ago


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## Chris Tinker (4 Oct 2019)

https://www.aquasabi.com/aquascaping-wiki_algae_bba-black-beard-algae

read this... so more water changes... and may be more co2....

maybe some easy carbo to kill whats in the tank


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## Harry H (4 Oct 2019)

Have you tried to do a pH profile? Do you get 1 unit drop in pH? How about the flow in the tank? 

I would personally remove those plants and add more plants increasing the plant mass, and do pH profiles until you see 1 unit drop consistently. Maybe lower the light intensity for a while and ramp up once the tank settles in.


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## Zeus. (4 Oct 2019)

As 'Harry H' suggests Flow, light and get the Ferts sorted/checked. Fitting some sort of temporary filter below your DIY lights and/or raising them, the light filter will reduce the PAR getting to the plants


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## dw1305 (4 Oct 2019)

Hi all, 





Zeus. said:


> Fitting some sort of temporary filter below your DIY lights and/or raising them, the light filter will reduce the PAR getting to the plants


I'd definitely add some floating plants to help diffuse the light. The BBA you have won't go on its own now, but it may lessen in growth rate once you get more plant biomass. 

You also look to have some Stagshorn algae. We don't what causes it, but if you have tightly packed filter media? it can make things worse. 

On the plus side if you look at the new leaves on the light green, faster growing plant (_Heteranthera?_) they look quite healthy. 

cheers Darrel


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## itsBobby (4 Oct 2019)

You have 90 Watts of LED lighting? My entire house has less with every single light on!


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## sparkyweasel (4 Oct 2019)

A full tank pic and a plant list would be useful. From what I can see in the pics above you don't have a lot of fast-growing plants. Lots of light, EI ferts and injected CO2 are sure to make _something _grow rampant; if your plants aren't able to take advantage of it, opportunist algae will. A lot more fast-growing stem plants could help, (even just a big cheap bunch of elodea if the pond shops have got any left) as well as Darrel's suggestion of floating plants.


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## dw1305 (4 Oct 2019)

Hi all,





sparkyweasel said:


> A full tank pic and a plant list would be useful. From what I can see in the pics above you don't have a lot of fast-growing plants. Lots of light, EI ferts and injected CO2 are sure to make _something _grow rampant.


That would be my thinking as well.

Cheers Darrel


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## Geoffrey Rea (4 Oct 2019)

Hey Chris.



Chris Tinker said:


> i stripped back the plants 3 weeks ago as i was not using EI but some off the shelf product.



Unsure what you specifically mean by off the shelf product. Can you clarify? Which product? What dosage to what size tank?



Chris Tinker said:


> more substrate added



What substrate? Sand? Soil? Both?



Chris Tinker said:


> lights are 3 x 30w LEDS 5 hrs or 6 cant remember.



Any wiser what light you’re using?



Chris Tinker said:


> flow seems good over the plant area.



You appear to have very low plant mass so what qualifies as ‘good’? It’s hard to tell from your photo’s but there doesn’t appear to be much preventing water from circulating around the tank etc... A full tank shot would help a lot as others mention. It’s just that good is such a subjective term. Plants blowing around, swaying gently, barely moving? I’ve know folks to have the equivalent of hurricane force winds in terms of flow and describe this as good so it’s not being pedantic but just getting a grasp on what this means more specifically in context.



Chris Tinker said:


> read this... so more water changes... and may be more co2....



You haven’t sourced the issues. I guarantee the first customer to capitalise on Co2 fluctuating will be BBA. Figure the problem(s), develop a strategy, execute and see if it works. There are even caveats to water changes. Tap water contains a considerable amount of dissolved Co2, causing fluctuations that staghorn and BBA quite effectively utilise during the photo period before the plants have even woken up. Water changes before your Co2 comes on or after lights out may help at this point but not during the photo period.



Chris Tinker said:


> maybe some easy carbo to kill whats in the tank



Glutaraldehyde is a tool. It does more than just kill algae. For the sake of plants and livestock it’s a good idea to consider whether you want to use it long term. If you do there are understandings that will allow you to use it effectively.

As Darrel has said, new growth on certain plants looks good and healthy. This is promising. Keep trucking and turn it around. Answers to these questions helps narrow it down.


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (6 Oct 2019)

itsBobby said:


> You have 90 Watts of LED lighting? My entire house has less with every single light on!



Your have got more wattage over that tank than my car headlight have as standard, your issue is lighting way to much. Lift your lighting hood up if you are using one, if not reduce the wattage.


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (6 Oct 2019)

here lies the issue https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/4ft-tank-1st-in-5-yrs.58007/page-4 with your algae.


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## Chris Tinker (7 Oct 2019)

thanks for all the responses typically my mobile broke and got a new one ordered.

i will try to add and answer all.

https://cpc.farnell.com/v-tac/402-vt-30-b/floodlight-led-30w-6400k-black/dp/LA07365?CMP=TREML007-005

these are my lights.. at 300litre and 50cm depth this was what was worked out to be good amount of watts...

when you mean a filter? over the lights could you describe what? plastic sheet? clear ? clouded? 

i added JBL Manado under my sand for nutrients and additional substrate to lift it a bit and bought some not so fine sand (10kg vanished quickly)

i have not done a ph profile other than the co2 art co2 checker which is green. doesnt really go blue when lights are off.. so i assumed ph is consistent... i was around 7.5ph before co2 injection so i know my base number.... tonight i can check

not many plants as i took a lot out due to not working.... with this algea i can cut some of the effective areas but it is getting every where.... 

some plants do shoot beautiful new leaves i just need to get to the point they dont get this bba on it.

the plants have a gentle sway... nothing crazy...

tank limits where i can out filter in and out lets and i cant lift the lid up for lights etc... cant remove lid as i have a 3 year old who despite being told still likes to throw things for her 8 month old brother.... 

i have a spray bar on back wall to spread out the flow but i can reduce this to inject more push...


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## Chris Tinker (7 Oct 2019)

as a side note last night i spent some time on maintenance... i am shamed to say both filters were really dirty.

neither are jam packed 

eheim 2 pro 600ltr has 3 blue sponges 1 on each level and alfragog.

the eheim pro 4 300ltr is as standard... blue sponge on top.. black plastic... square things and then balls both which are a rough material. 

both filters got a big clean with some tank water to squeeze the sponges nearlly clean and shake off the debris of all other media.

flow increased (not surprisingly)


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## Chris Tinker (7 Oct 2019)

TNC was the off the shelf product. looking at the ingredients to EI it is significantly less.


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## dw1305 (8 Oct 2019)

Hi all, 





Chris Tinker said:


> eheim 2 pro 600ltr has 3 blue sponges 1 on each level and alfragog. The eheim pro 4 300ltr is as standard... blue sponge on top.. black plastic... square things and then balls both which are a rough material. Both filters got a big clean with some tank water to squeeze the sponges nearlly clean and shake off the debris of all other media. flow increased (not surprisingly)


 You should be able to remove a bit of filter material. I'd take out any fine sponges and the square things (Eheim Mech Pro?), I like Alfagrog, <"Eheim "Coco-pops"> and coarser sponge in the filter. 

I don't know if you can hide it in the tank, but I like a pre-filter on the intakes, either the <"Eheim one (effective but ugly)"> or a <"big sponge block">. 





Chris Tinker said:


> not many plants as i took a lot out due to not working...


I'd definitely try some floaters, they shouldn't have an algae or light issue. 

cheers Darrel


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## Zeus. (8 Oct 2019)

Chris Tinker said:


> TNC was the off the shelf product



TNC lite or TNC complete ?


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## Chris Tinker (8 Oct 2019)

Zeus. said:


> TNC lite or TNC complete ?


complete

wasnt getting any growth with it but had same algae issue


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## Chris Tinker (8 Oct 2019)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,  You should be able to remove a bit of filter material. I'd take out any fine sponges and the square things (Eheim Mech Pro?), I like Alfagrog, <"Eheim "Coco-pops"> and coarser sponge in the filter.
> 
> I don't know if you can hide it in the tank, but I like a pre-filter on the intakes, either the <"Eheim one (effective but ugly)"> or a <"big sponge block">. I'd definitely try some floaters, they shouldn't have an algae or light issue.
> 
> cheers Darrel



no fine sponges just blue coarse

do you like that plastic black things? mech pro and square thing bio mech


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## Chris Tinker (8 Oct 2019)

full tank shot..

i will look at getting floating plants... omw to the sale section lol


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## Chris Tinker (8 Oct 2019)




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## dw1305 (9 Oct 2019)

Hi all, 





Chris Tinker said:


> no fine sponges just blue coarse


Perfect. 





Chris Tinker said:


> do you like that plastic black things? mech pro and square thing bio mech


 I don't really like any mechanical media in the filter, ideally I want all the mechanical filtration to all have happened before the water enters the filter body. 

All I want entering the filter is water, ammonia and oxygen. A lot of this is do with oxygen, we need the water to remain oxygenated within the filter body. I just want the aerobic (oxic) part of the nitrogen cycle arc:

NH3/(NH4+) + O2 > NO2 + O2 > NO3 (from <"https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2011/4/chemistry">) 






The great advantage of planted tanks is that plants will mop up the nitrate (NO3), as well as depleting the ammonia and nitrite. 





Chris Tinker said:


> full tank shot.. i will look at getting floating plants.


 Plant health looks really good, you just need some more plants. 

PM me if you are struggling to find floaters, I don't have as much _Salvinia_ (Floating Fern) or _Limnobium_ (Amazon Frogbit) at the moment (I've given a lot away) but I still have some spare.

cheers Darrel


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## Zeus. (9 Oct 2019)

dw1305 said:


> ideally I want all the mechanical filtration to all have happened before the water enters the filter body.



So therefore the filter will never (rarely) need cleaning if you get it right as Darrel does, This will enable you to save the maximum amount of time needed to clean your filters with an easy clean off pre-filters. Which is easier with low tech tanks when tank turnover isn't so critical.

However if you dont like the look of a prefilter in the tank and /or you are on a high tech route and if you have algae issues, Cleaning the filter weekly may be your best option (as I do). If its clean every week with no to limited detritus then decrease the filter cleaning esp if theirs no algae issues. 

I do have a twinstar reactor in mine also and for the reasons Darrel mention about 



dw1305 said:


> I just want the aerobic (oxic) part of the nitrogen cycle



I have the Twinstar reactor as close to the filter intake as possible so all the micro bubbles get suck into the filter for two reasons.

1.Better O2 to the filter
2. Reduces the micro bubbles in the tank so looks clearer


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## Chris Tinker (18 Oct 2019)

Zeus. said:


> So therefore the filter will never (rarely) need cleaning if you get it right as Darrel does, This will enable you to save the maximum amount of time needed to clean your filters with an easy clean off pre-filters. Which is easier with low tech tanks when tank turnover isn't so critical.
> 
> However if you dont like the look of a prefilter in the tank and /or you are on a high tech route and if you have algae issues, Cleaning the filter weekly may be your best option (as I do). If its clean every week with no to limited detritus then decrease the filter cleaning esp if theirs no algae issues.
> 
> ...



just had a look... interesting. would all those bubbles not make the filter noisier?


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## Chris Tinker (18 Oct 2019)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, Perfect.  I don't really like any mechanical media in the filter, ideally I want all the mechanical filtration to all have happened before the water enters the filter body.
> 
> All I want entering the filter is water, ammonia and oxygen. A lot of this is do with oxygen, we need the water to remain oxygenated within the filter body. I just want the aerobic (oxic) part of the nitrogen cycle arc:
> 
> ...


not going to even lie... tried twice to read that link and wooooosh over the head haha


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## Zeus. (18 Oct 2019)

Chris Tinker said:


> just had a look... interesting. would all those bubbles not make the filter noisier?



Lots of micro bubbles with massive surface area to volume ratio the the O2 and H2 will soon dissolve into the water as bubbles get trapped in sponges. O2 mopped up be filter Bactria so filter more aerobic and H2 released at tank water surface via equilibrium with atmospheric air (coming out of solution OFC) . Well that's my thoughts any way 

But no more noisier, and no micro bubbles in tank


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## dw1305 (18 Oct 2019)

Hi all, 





Chris Tinker said:


> not going to even lie... tried twice to read that link and wooooosh


I don't understand all the chemistry in detail. I think I understand enough to pick out the important bits

cheers Darrel


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## dw1305 (18 Oct 2019)

Hi all,





Zeus. said:


> Lots of micro bubbles with massive surface area to volume ratio the the O2


That is the one, if the bubbles are small enough they may actually be <"very resistant to dissolving">, slightly larger ones will dissolve for the reasons @Zeus. has given. 





Chris Tinker said:


> would all those bubbles not make the filter noisier?


That was one of the first criticisms of  <"aeration and dissolved oxygen....">, that all the bubbles would end up in the filter and cause <"an air-lock">. 

cheers Darrel


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## Zeus. (18 Oct 2019)

dw1305 said:


> That is the one, if the bubbles are small enough they may actually be <"very resistant to dissolving">, slightly larger ones will dissolve for the reasons @Zeus. has given.



Did you mean to say '' That is the one, if the bubbles are big enough they may actually be <"very resistant to dissolving">, slightly smaller ones will dissolve for the reasons @Zeus. has given.''

As that was what I meant !?


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## dw1305 (19 Oct 2019)

Hi all, 





Zeus. said:


> Did you mean to say '' That is the one, if the bubbles are big enough they may actually be <"very resistant to dissolving">, slightly smaller ones will dissolve for the reasons @Zeus. has given.'' As that was what I meant !?


No, I  actually meant was that nano-bubbles may persist for considerable periods of time. 

The science bit is here <"Nanobubbles (ultrafine bubbles)">.  I don't fully understand it, but I think it says that below a certain size threshold bubbles behave differently.





> The likely reason for the long-lived presence of nanobubbles (first described on this website in 2007) is that the nanobubble gas/liquid interface has a negative charge [3424, 3473, 3531] that introduces an opposing force to the surface tension, so slowing or preventing the bubbles' dissipation.


 The slightly larger, "ultrafine bubbles", will dissolve and that will happen relatively quickly due to their high surface to volume ratio. 

It is the persistence of the nanobubbles that give a "Twinstar" its anti-microbial properties. 

cheers Darrel


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## Zeus. (19 Oct 2019)

That would explain why the nano bubbles last about 10-15mins in the tank. So there a slower realease of O3 (Ozone) and hence the suppose antibacteria action of the twinstar type reactor.
So seeing I have a good 90% of these nano bubbles going straight into the canister filter their could be a significant number of filter bacteria wiped out each time the reactor comes on!! But doesn't take long to replenish the numbers with bacteria. Not an issue in a well planted tank as plants/roots take care of the bulk of the bacteria filtration. But in heavily stocked fish only tanks a twinstar type reactor probably not a good idea IMO


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## Edvet (19 Oct 2019)

Not sure how much O3 would persist in those microbubbles, it's quite reactive.


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## Zeus. (19 Oct 2019)

Edvet said:


> Not sure how much O3 would persist in those microbubbles, it's quite reactive.


 
Esp when the O3 dissolves as the half life of O3 is even shorter in water than air and I'm sure it's got plenty to react with in tank water


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## Chris Tinker (20 Oct 2019)

Whats the best way to share a video? thinking to get an idea of flow rates.


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## Zeus. (20 Oct 2019)

Chris Tinker said:


> Whats the best way to share a video? thinking to get an idea of flow rates.



Upload to "You Tube" then link to forum


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## Chris Tinker (20 Oct 2019)

i do think its fair to say too much light... one photo is bang under 1-2 lights. Other as you can see is a darker area.. lots of red algae.. and well non...

i have changed the outlet pipe size and direction to try and increase tank flow and water movement. i have also added a small pump i bought for water changes but it was too weak, was doing nothing so put a sponge on the inlet and now got a small filter sponge and more flow.

i have also got my wood finally submerged. took some slate and alfragog to weigh it down. (just incase you wondered what else changed...) 

i am doing more frequent water changes, stopped dosing EI. and i think there is no NEW algae... 

also despite my algae issues i personally think my rams look stunning. taking my win there... plants not so good. 

another side note more trimming and re planting of my fastest growing plant... throwing any algea affected pieces though.


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## Chris Tinker (20 Oct 2019)

that fts makes it look loads darker than it is *too much light again even for the camers*


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