# A Long Start, another Iwagumi story



## steveno (5 Nov 2017)

Hello All,


I have been away from the hobby for a number of years, after a moving house, as it just wasn’t suitable to set up my old tank, so reluctantly had to get rid of my old tank and all own old equipment.  


Following a recent change in my personal life, I needed to do something that always brought me a lot of Joy & satisfaction, and after perusing UKaps forum and seeing so many inspiring aquascape I felt the need to set up my own small tank. 


I really, really was in luck when looking for a suitable size tank, while reviewing a website that won’t be name (begin with an E), somebody was selling their ADA 60P, it had never even been used at an amazing price. The chap (really nice guy btw) had intended to set up his own aquascape but due to personal commitments was unable to do so. In addition to the 60P tank, he also had for sale an unused ADA moon light and an ADA ES600 filter (things of beauty). I snap up the lot at bargain price, couldn’t believe my luck , it was almost meant to be. 


Information on my set-up so far. 

Tank:  ADA 60P

Filter:  ADA ES600

Cabinet:  Modified and reinforced Ikea Kallax unit that I had already (also matches other units in same room)
Heater:  Hydor 200w inline 
Co2:  Up Aqua inline automizer 
Light:  ADA Moon light
Substrate:  ADA Amaziona 
Hardscape:  Seiryu Stones
Ferts:  Planning to use E.I dry ferts 

Outlets:  Stainless steel outlet and intake with integrated surface skimmer.

Planting:  Utricularia graminifolia  & perhaps Bucephalandra sp
Fauna:  Undecided yet

Here some photos of my set so far - taken with my Iphone this morning:




 

 

 

I know i need to clean glass, also still need to drill some hole on the top to accommodate the tubing, i will be using white sponge to close gaps around tubing, going for minimal look as much as possible .

Will need to add some substrate support to prevent it flatting out which i recalled tended to happen in my old tank. I also got some eheim double taps to ease maintenance.

The plan to set up a simple Iwagumi scape, using a single carpet of Utricularia graminifolia, yes I know this isn’t likely to end well, but have always want a carpet of the UG but always failed in my old established tank on account of my amano shrimp taking a likely to the any new clusters I planted. 


Having done a lot of reading I think my best chances are using DSM, fingers crossed, I got 5 pots of UG on order, it going to be long DSM period as this plant is a slow burner, hopefully I wouldn’t get the dreaded melt once I flood the tank . Also concern that the amaziona substrate has not been cycled so will leech a quite a bit of ammonia once flooded which UG doesn’t like, but I willing to give it another go. If this doesn’t work out it will replace with cuba or mini hairgrass. 


I would also like to somehow add some Bucephalandra sp. maybe around the stones as love these little plants, thou no sure how these will look with a UG capet, but this wont until after DSM, unless somebody can advise if this is suitable to emersion growth?


Any thoughts and advice welcome, particularly on DSM start up.


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## GHNelson (5 Nov 2017)

Welcome back Steve
Love the new set-up and equipment 
hoggie


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## steveno (5 Nov 2017)

Cheers Hogan53


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## foxfish (5 Nov 2017)

Looks great, I would try a few Bucephalandra during the dry start.
Your substrate should cycle itself if it is kept wet & you can still do a form of water change during the dry start. After a few of weeks of DSM, once the plants have rooted, you could partially fill the tank with water & drain it after a 30min or so.


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## Daveslaney (5 Nov 2017)

Great start. 
The tabk and cabinet look fantastic. Really nice hardscape too.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (5 Nov 2017)

steveno said:


> I know i need to clean glass, also still need to drill some hole on the top to accommodate the tubing, i will be using white sponge to close gaps around tubing, going for minimal look as much as possible .



Drooling here, quick suggestion about putting pipes through the cabinet lid. I used <one of these recently> to mount a TV to a wall without out the cables showing, available in stainless so would look sweet with your pipes. You will also need <the brushes> to close the gaps around the pipes, I can only see them in black but I'm sure white ones were an option.

Look forward to seeing this progress


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## Costa (5 Nov 2017)

Looking good! I've also used some ikea shelves in the past to support a 50X50X50cm cube, held no prob for 2 years straight.


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## steveno (5 Nov 2017)

Thanks Foxfish, 
I will consider including the Busephalandra in the DSM, hopefully they will be OK, as beautiful these plant are they are both rare and quite expensive so would hate for them to die before i flood the tank, my plan is to have planted around the rocks, with some wedge up central stone. I'm considering using Bucephalandra 'Deep Purple or SP as thee are quite small leafed. and love the color they give off under the right conditions. 






Thanks Daveslandy,
I played with the layout of the scape for quite some time before settling with this layout, the Seiryu Stones was all i had to hand that were used in my previous scapes, not wanting to spend to much more given all i had spent all already (even thou it was a steal). The central stone are sat on some lave stones to give the extra height i wanted, and to create the banking without needing using to much substrate, i put them in a filter media bag to provide them mixing with the soil to much as well.

Thanks AvenageWhiteBloke,
Also cheers for the suggestion of cabinet lids, i also considered using table grommets, but settle on the ideal of sponge as this will help gripe the tubing in place. 

Cheers Costa,
I noticed that unit are not solid when drilling the central section to accommodate the tubing, thou they were strong enough to accommodate my me standing on them with any issue, nevertheless i still felt it wouldn't hurt to reinforce the central section. I used no-nails to glue some timber sections to central section and also screwed through on the other side. The timber sections will also allow me to hang the extension sockets off. 





Incidentally i am using an energenie 6 way power socket, this has 4 programmable socket, which i will use to control my co2 and lighting with without the need to use timer sockets, this worked fine in my previous setup. . 

Thanks for looking and providing comments.


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## foxfish (5 Nov 2017)

Perhaps you could find out from the Bucephalandra supplier if they have been grown in or out of water.


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## GHNelson (5 Nov 2017)

Hi Steve
Bucephalandra are so slowing growing emersed I wouldn't bother adding them at the DSM!
Add them just before flooding...


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## steveno (5 Nov 2017)

Hello Hogan53, 

Cheers for the advise.  guess i will wait until after dry start. Itching to get the dry start going as its going to be slow burner.


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## a.aurel (5 Nov 2017)

nice hardware, great description can't wait to hear more news


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## Leesey (6 Nov 2017)

Looks amazing I do like this size of tank


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## Andrew Butler (7 Nov 2017)

steveno said:


> energenie 6 way power socket


did you get this recently, if so where from?
I had a couple on my old marine setup but sold them with it.


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## Ryan Thang To (7 Nov 2017)

Hi Steve
Nice bit gear you got there. Its always good to find a good bargin in good condition.
Hardscape is looking good. What foreground have you planning on using?

I think i was just starting in this hobby when i spoke to you last 3 or 4 yesrs ago 

Cheers
Ryan


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## Costa (7 Nov 2017)

I was under the impression that Buce's grow emersed in nature, next to streams and waterfalls. Or that might depend on the spieces, I don't know... Fact is my Buce grows at 1/3rd of the rate of my Anubias


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## steveno (7 Nov 2017)

Thanks A.aurel 
I'm still waiting on the UG, finger crossed i get them before the end of the week, i'm eager to get started with my DSM, thou their website dose suggest it can take up to 2 week to delivery, hope the 5 pots of UG will be fine when they arrive, not bad price got 5 pot of 1-2 UG for £20 (plus postage).

Thanks Leesy, 
I really lucked out with the tank, and all my equipment.

Hello Andrew,
I purchased the Energenie 6 way power socket from Maplin quite a few years ago, not even sure the 4 programmable socket are still working, as not got round  to testing them. I look on maplin website and they are selling for half price (£15) at the mo: https://www.maplin.co.uk/p/energenie-four-socket-power-management-system-n05kf
If mine isnt working will consider getting a new one at that price 

Ryan Thang
Good to see that you still keeping up the hobby, i had nosy at your last thread, tank looked amazing, hope it still running. Did you even managed to the save any of the moss i sent you? 
I planing on simple Iwagumi scape, using a single carpet of Utricularia graminifolia, as always failed in my previous attempts due to my amano shrimp taking a liking to any clusters i planted. I though a dry start would give me the best of success, finger and toes crossed. 

Hello Costa,
I'm in no rush to plant the Buce's, will happy to get started with UG DSM, also prob end up getting the Buce's from Ebay, where i sure they would have been maintained submerged, thou will see if i can get the ones i want from a more reliable source.


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## Dantrasy (8 Nov 2017)

Looking very good!

Please comment on the filter once you have it going.


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## Andrew Butler (8 Nov 2017)

steveno said:


> I look on maplin website and they are selling for half price (£15) at the mo


I brought mine for that a few years ago now when they were selling them off. They had stock left at 2 stores end of last year which were miles from me but not available for postage, I just had a look on the page; if you search the product on maplins it doesn't exist and there's not the option to order the product through the link you sent or look at availability so it's gone from there.
Saves having timers sticking out of sockets and can't find another product like it.
Thanks
Andrew


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## Leesey (8 Nov 2017)

From Energenie direct I believe they are around £50


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## Andrew Butler (8 Nov 2017)

Leesey said:


> From Energenie direct I believe they are around £50


It's hard to justify that when you paid less than a third in the past!


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## Ryan Thang To (8 Nov 2017)

steveno said:


> Ryan Thang
> Good to see that you still keeping up the hobby, i had nosy at your last thread, tank looked amazing, hope it still running. Did you even managed to the save any of the moss i sent you?
> I planing on simple Iwagumi scape, using a single carpet of Utricularia graminifolia, as always failed in my previous attempts due to my amano shrimp taking a liking to any clusters i planted. I though a dry start would give me the best of success, finger and toes crossed.


Hello mate. Glad you like it. Yes its still running. Just too lazy to update the journal. Im working on my mini gallery at the moment so will have some updates. 
I cant remember but what moss was it again? Fissiden moss mayabe


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## steveno (8 Nov 2017)

Thanks Dantrasy,
With regard to my filter, i was consider sticking with the ADA route and using Bio cubes and active carbon for the first couple of month and then change the active carbon to the Bio Rio, and then only Bio Rio but this route is quite expensive, thou with this in mind I have actually got hold of some ADA  bio cubes and ADA active carbon but not enough to fully fill the filter. The chap that i brought most of my equipment off very kindly gave me a couple bags of ceramic tubes and also  bag of floss. So was considering using some ceramic tube at the bottom of the filter top with the bio cube and followed by the active carbon and then some floss. However i am open to some advise regarding  what i can use in the filter as an alternative to ADA  filter media given how expensive their stuff is. Also as i'm starting with DSM for month or two, teh subtract would have partical cycled by the time i turn my filter, so no really sure if i need to the used the active carbon or not as suggest open for advise for filter media following a DSM.

Hello Andrew,
Sorry about the maplin link, i just google it and didn't really check the website thoroughly, fingers crossed mine is still working then, if not it to old timers again as not paying £50 for a replacement one, if i recall correctly i only paid £25 for mine.

Hello Leesay,
I did look at energenie other smart system on thier way site, they also do a 4 way smart socket that can be controlled via your phone or table but you also need to buy their hub unit, these two unit combined isn't cheap, as Andrew has suggested £50 is a difficult pill to sallow after only pay half this the first time around. I'm going to test the socket over the week end hope they are still working.

Hello Ryan Thang
Look forward to seeing some update photos, if i remember correctly  it was Fissiden moss, if you recall teh envolpe if snet you them in was riped opened when they arrive and moss has dryed out bit, sorry about that.


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## steveno (10 Nov 2017)

Its time for a bit of a update.

UG arrived today , thought 5 pots would have been sufficient but could have done with one more pot, oh well.

Here some photos.










Some other good news, my programmable 6 way power socket is still working , have programmed light to come for 11 hours each day.

Having seen some clever folks using a frogger to mist tank during DSM period, I have picked up a cheap usb donut humidifier from amazon. You only need to  put the donut in a small pot of water and it will generate a fine mistwhen it powers on. i using one of the pots that UG came in,  I will program it to turn on at certain intervals to mist tank while i am at work, fingers crossed that this will work, as it makes it simpler for me.

Here's a photo of it in operation, seems to be working.





I will will need to refilled pot of water in the morning, which will allow a bit of a air change.

I have also added a small shelf in the cabinet to hold the step down transformers i need for all my equipment, this will keep things a bit more tide. ALway keep all my electrics off the floor can only be a good thing should the worst happen and i get a leak.





I will be keeping a eye on this weekend to ensure it working as planned.


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## Costa (11 Nov 2017)

Most tidy tank cabinet I've ever seen. This is going to develop into a fantastic tank. Well done!


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## Leesey (11 Nov 2017)

It looks brilliant and the idea of a shelf is good. I have just had one of those ‘why didn’t I think of this befor moments!’


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## steveno (11 Nov 2017)

Thanks for commenting and likes guys 
 just have to be patient now and hope it starts to carpet. 

I can get a bit Ocd with keeping everything neat and tidy, I actually had the transformer packs on some bricks but didn't like the look plus it didn't give much space for the tubing, Inline heater and atomiser, I also got to install some double taps so it going to get quite cramped in there.

I seen a really good deal two portion of mini leaf needle Bruces, I had plans to wait until after Dsm, but really good deal. So these will get added once they arrive, also got hold of some more Ug to fill the back of the slope.

I am now also consider some stems perhaps some  Rotala sp. Colorata in the  top left corner, to add a bit of colour and help with cycling period once I flood tank.


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## steveno (28 Nov 2017)

Thought it was time for a bit of an update, it’s been 2.5 week since I started the DSM.

Well thing are moving along quite slowly, had to content with some melting in first week, I read in one of journals that using Rhizotonic plant fertilizers during their UG DSM they saw some benefit, but I must have used a little too much as the melt happen shortly after I started mixing with humidifier water , so have reverted back to go old tap water and melt seem to stopped, thou it could have been an coincidence, anyway things have settled fingers crossed.

I can defiantly see some growth.





Photo taken straight after planting.









Photo taken this morning.

Yeah that’s Bucephalandra ‘Deep Purple’ you see running up the Oyishi stone (central stone). I just stuff it into the cracks in the stone and hope that the root with attached to stone during DSM period.





Did experiencing a little melt on some leafs, but it seem to be doing ok now for the time being, thou have noticed that some leafs are turn yellow so may need to spray buces with some ferts? Hope it will survive the DSM.

I’m keeping humidity as high as possible in there using the humidifier, but finding that I do need to drain water occasionally to ensure water level doesn’t get to high, that bit of tubing you can see in front in the above photo is there to allow me to drain water below the substrate.

Other than daily refilling the pot with water, which also allow tank to air, and occasionally draining  the tank is pretty left on its own, both the lights and humidifier are on a timer, lights comes for 10 hours, and the humidifier turns on for 15 minutes every 2.5 hours during this time.

Just waiting for UG to carpet more or less all over, to give it the best chances of success before I fill tank, hoping as I keep the humidity very high that I won’t experience the major melt that typically occurs after the DSM period, finger crossed. 

Like I said will be a slow burner, but lots to do this time of year so no worries.

Planning ahead, as suggested considering plant some red stems in back, certainly got sufficiently lighting for it! but haven’t decided what stem, would welcome any suggestions.

I have also started to think about the filter, I recently purchase an EF-2 Booster to use as pre-filter (was only £13 off Ebay) to ease maintenance as much as possible given as it a new tank, filter going get a load of gunt during the initial start up period.  Also the ADA ES600 filter is essential a tall metal tube which doesn’t come with any compartments, which I imagine will make cleaning I bit of mare.

in main filter planning on using the ceramic tube topped with active carbon, which I will replace with Bio Rio after the initial start-up period once I have flooded tank and top off with some floss.

Thou am concerned using a pre-filter could overly effect flow, given flow is king in a planted tanks. Dose anyone have experience using a pre-filter? Could install a wave make if required, but hoping that I won’t need to, the EF-2 Booster dose come with some pads which I could cut up to reduce drag?

Would welcome any suggestion/ advise…

Thanks for looking.


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## steveno (7 Jan 2018)

Hello,

As it has been a number of weeks since my last update, thought I would provide a bit an update.

I change name of aquascape to ‘The Long Start’ for obvious reasons, will need to come up for a better name once it flooded.

As suggested it is still in a DSM, partly because of xmas break, not really had much time but mainly because I’m holding off flooding until the UG has fully carpeted, to gave it the best chance of survival once I flooded it, also read that UG spread outwardly faster during an DSM.










As you can see the UG is almost fully carpeted now.

I’ve added some Ludwigia sp. Mini Super Red to the background for some added colour, which seems to be really doing well in DSM.

About 2 weeks ago I also added some fissiden moss using the blender method, in hopes that some will adhere to the stones.





The Bucephalandra ‘Deep Purple’ is doing really well, getting loads of new growth, the plant rhizome/root are clearly visible now and speading, I didn’t use any super glue when I first planted, just wedge into cracks of the main stone.






I’m have upped the periods of misting to 15 minutes every 1.5 hour 24/7.

I have also order a few portions of h. pinnatifida, I love this plant.

Won’t be long now when of flood tank.

Thanks for looking.


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## steveno (7 Jan 2018)

Here's another picture.





This is the angle which tank is typically viewed at from sofa in living room.

Sorry about quality of picture these were all taken using my old iphone.


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## Ryan Thang To (7 Jan 2018)

Hi
Looking good. Ug is really bright green and nice. When i had ug i had to pull it out it got out of hand and grew everywhere. 
I only want it in a small area but In your layout it work out well 

Looking forwards to your next up date.

Cheers
Ryan


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## GHNelson (7 Jan 2018)

Nice journal on the DSM.....although I think it should be renamed the MSM
Misting Start Method!


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## steveno (8 Jan 2018)

Thanks for comments chaps,

Fingers crossed that I don't get a major melt off once I have flooded, hopefully the amount of misting might help the transition from emersed to immersed state. (Might even increase interval of misting).

You probably right shouldn't call this Dsm, it should be called Msm.

Checking the Moss this morning looks like even after forthright it still not adhered to stones, might have to go down the route of superglue method.


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## steveno (4 Feb 2018)

Well thought thought i would provide a bit of an update on my scape.

I finally flooded my tank, it been flooded for little over 11 days.

Here's what my scape looked like after a few days after flooding.




I have a small LED colored strip to back of tank.

I've picked up an DIM12C dimmer unit to used with my ADA Moonlights, after reading the following thread:
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/led-dimmer-solution-but.35341/
Keeping it relatively low light to start with, have been running the Moonlights at 50% of output, light comes on for 6 hours a day.

Since i haven't got any livestock yet, I've crank up the Co2 to help the transition from the DSM or should i say MSM (Misting start method) . Co2 is being provided via a inline UP diffuser, can't even count the number of BPS. Co2 comes on 2.5 hours before lights on and turns off 1.5 hours before lights off. Drop checker is bright green, almost yellow by the time light comes on.

I've done a limited PH profile (not had an opportunely to a full day profile):

1 hours before Co2 turns on: 6.6/6.7 ph
1 hours after Co2 turns on: 6.3/6.4 ph

Planning to keep it fauna free until the plants have settled.

Have also been doing 50% plus water changing every 3/4 days.

The filter seems to be providing plenty of flow, the stems at the back of the scape are slowly swaying as is the top of the UG, plenty of Co2 micro bubble in tank, was concerned that filter wouldn't provide sufficient flow so pick up a tiny pump but looks like i don't need to use in tank, so using it simplify water changes.

I also got Twinstar in tank, initially had it under outlet, but relocated to other side of tank to minimizing gassing off from the surface, since moving Twinstar diffuser to opposite side of tank, I've notice that it injects the micro bubbles less often.

After flooding i've had deal with a little diatoms which is quite common for a newly started scape, as I've got no clean up crew hoping the semi regular water changes will help keep it at bay. Also had a little green algae, but i think that more to do with over misting during the DSM, thou it seems to clearing up, just got a some left on rocks, but can't scrub the rock clean, as have some Fissden moss on rocks that seem to growing, can see some tiny leave forming. 

Unfortunately the UG is melting quite a bit, and has gotten quite leggy in places, assume its just transitioning.  I was expecting this, hopefully its got enough enough root mass to survive the transition . Its also another reason why I've not added any fauna, to give my UG the best chance of survival, last time i tried UG my shrimp destroyed any UG clumps i planted with in a matter of days.   

Here's how my scape looked today, photos taken a few hours ago.







I am currently EI dosing, but having read that UG doesn't like Nitrates, am not including any KNO3 in my dosing regime, but have doubled amount of Potassium Phosphate in my dosage. 

Aside from the UG the Bucephalandra ‘Deep Purple, Ludwigia sp. Mini Super Red and H. Pinnatifida seem to be transitioning well, they don't appear to be melting like the UG, thou the Ludwigia sp seem to have loss a bit of color, assume it due to the reduction in light.

Thanks for looking.


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## foxfish (4 Feb 2018)

I would turn up the gas.....


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## steveno (4 Feb 2018)

foxfish said:


> I would turn up the gas.....



Thanks Foxfish, already got C02 crank quite high, my plant are all pearling, but i only notice this once Co turns off*, *but i guess turn it a little more cant hurt, worst i i'll need to refill my Co2 sooner. Thou i do have second canister to ensure I never find myself in a situation running out of C02.


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## foxfish (4 Feb 2018)

You are not getting much of a PH drop, unless your water is really hard you want to be aiming for a one point drop by lights on.


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## steveno (4 Feb 2018)

Thanks Foxfish, you've made a good point, will crank it further then. 

Cheers.


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## steveno (4 Feb 2018)

I live in Manchester, so have soft water...


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## foxfish (4 Feb 2018)

At least you have the opportunity to experiment while there are no fish.


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## dw1305 (5 Feb 2018)

Hi all, 





steveno said:


> but having read that UG doesn't like Nitrates, am not including any KNO3 in my dosing regime, but have doubled amount of Potassium Phosphate in my dosage.


As you don't know how much ammonia is left in the substrate, I would definitely dose some nitrogen.

cheers Darrel


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## steveno (8 Feb 2018)

I wondering if anyone can offer some advise.

For the last week i have been struggling to get the magic 1 point PH drop before lights on in my tank.

Despite my best efforts the best i can achieve is a .5 ph drop - before co2 turn my tank has a typical ph of 6.9, my Co2 turns on 2.5 hours before lights turns, once light turns i'm getting a reading of 6.4ph which stay pretty much consistence until Co2 is turned off 1.5 hour before light turns off. 

Thinking that the issue was flow related, i introduced a small pump to provide additional flow, so much so now that it has uplift some of plant at  the rear of the scape, i pretty sure i got more than sufficient flow.

The drop checker is pretty much yellow, and as i have currently no livestock i am blasting tank with as much CO2 as possible, BPS is uncountable, it like a constant stream.






Note sure if the picture reflects the colour as well as reality, its defiantly yellow. 

The only algae i seem to be having is diatoms, but as it a newly setup tank that's to be expected and that seem to disappearing, plants seem to be happy, the UG melt seem to have now settle, and the bruce's also seem to be doing well with plenty of leave developing.

Is there anything else i can do to improve my PH drop?

I considering moving my inline defuser to the inlet hose so it goes straight into the filter instead, wonder if this will improve my PH drop. 

Any suggests would be grateful received.

Cheers


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## foxfish (9 Feb 2018)

if You have hard water then you might not be able to drop a full one point, or more to the point, you might not require a full one point drop to obtain 30ppm of co2.
Do you know what the water KH is?


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## steveno (9 Feb 2018)

Good morning Foxfish, 

Living in Manchester I have soft water, come out around 7ph from tap, thou not sure what my KH levels are.

Guess I will have to pick up a tester, any recommendations? 

I notice this morning that my drop checker hasn’t changed colour, perharps my solution has gone off, thou only been flooded for 2.5 weeks.

Other than ph and drop checker is there any other way to determine ppm?

Cheers


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## foxfish (9 Feb 2018)

I don’t think so, the drop checker with the correct, uncontaninated solution, will give a good indication when it is lime green.
I know it seems extreme but you could try even more co2 just to see it the ph drops anymore.
I can’t remember how you are diffusing the co2 ?
You should be able to get a tap water hardness from the local supplier.


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## steveno (9 Feb 2018)

Hello foxfish,

Appreciate the help.

Co2 is diffused with an Up in-line diffuser, brought brand new and only been used since scape was flooded (2.5 weeks).

I get a really fine mist around tank, so much so that water looks cloudy when co2 is on, goes back to being super clear with no surface scrum when co2 is turned off.

And while I have an added pump to improve flow, surface agitation is keep to a minimum to minimise gasing off. 

As per you earlier suggest previously as I haven’t any live stock, I’ve pretty much got co2 dailed way up. As suggested constant stream rather than bubbles in counter. I would up load a video but not at home now,  there a few more notch so I could up it further thou.

No algae issues other than diatoms.

Is there anything I missing?..

Cheers.


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## Kalum (9 Feb 2018)

Buffering from your substrate possibly?


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## steveno (9 Feb 2018)

Hello Kalum,

My substrate is ADA Amazonia used new, I started with a DSM for almost 3 months before flooding. 

Apologies, I been away from this hobby for quite awhile so having to relearn everything again.

How would my substrate buffer my water ph, to such an extent that I can’t achieve much of a ph drop when co2 it turned on? .


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## Edvet (9 Feb 2018)

If everything is growing nice and there are no or few algea just keep it like this, if algae appear, lower the light intensity a bit. The pH drop you get will work, just not at full megawatt lightstrength.
Not getting the 1 point drop in soft water has to do with dissolving the CO2, but with adjusting the light it will work.


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## steveno (9 Feb 2018)

Hello Edvet,

Thanks.

That really interesting, despite the increase flow I’m may still not be getting sufficient dissolving of CO2.

Which would suggest moving the inline to intake and filter could improve this issue. Would also have the benefit of much clearer water when gas is on.

I have a dimmer installed on my ADA moonlights so can dim them further if required.

Cheers


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## steveno (9 Feb 2018)

Sorry meant to type can dim leds further...


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## ceg4048 (9 Feb 2018)

Hi,
   If your municipal supplier is United Utilities you can find the water report app and input your post code at their website https://www.unitedutilities.com/services/your-water-supply/drinking-water-quality/
Evidently the water in that area is moderately soft and usually, water that has a low General Hardness also has a low Carbonate Hardness (although they do not actually list the Carbonate/Bicarbonate or alkalinity).
 If this is the case for your area then you should easily be able to drop the pH unless there is something in the tank that is adding alkalinity such as coral gravel or limestone ornaments etc.

As Edvert points out, if the plants are doing well then it's a non-issue as far as the pH drop goes but it is still important to understand the reasons you are unable to drop the pH.

The yellowing of the leaves is also a concern. Are you dosing NPK? 
I was confused by your statement above that you were using "used new" Aquasoil? Not sure what that means. If it's new then it should contain plenty of Nitrates. If it's old then you'll need to add KNO3.

You can also try to move the injector to the inlet side of the filter and see if the filter can handle the bubbles.

You might have mentioned, but it's also not clear how you are distributing the flow, via spraybar or outlet spud?

You can pick up any KH test kit to get an idea of the water's alkalinity. I hate spending money on test kits but KH/GH/pH kits are the least objectionable of the lot.

Cheers,


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## steveno (9 Feb 2018)

ceg4048 said:


> Hi,
> If your municipal supplier is United Utilities you can find the water report app and input your post code at their website https://www.unitedutilities.com/services/your-water-supply/drinking-water-quality/
> Evidently the water in that area is moderately soft and usually, water that has a low General Hardness also has a low Carbonate Hardness (although they do not actually list the Carbonate/Bicarbonate or alkalinity).
> If this is the case for your area then you should easily be able to drop the pH unless there is something in the tank that is adding alkalinity such as coral gravel or limestone ornaments etc.
> ...



Hello Ceg,

Thank you for your input and taking the time to advise.

The substrate is ADA Amazonia and power sand, all brought new for this scape.

I am EI dosing purchased from aquarium plant foods, but not currently adding any KNO3 (as have read that UG dosen't like Nitrates), the UG was initially melting quite a bit when i first flooded tank but i think it was due the transitioning from emersed DSM to immersed over the last couple of weeks, however the melting seems to have reduce a lot now.

The other plants in the tank are Bucephalandra ‘Deep Purple, Ludwigia sp. Mini Super Red and H. Pinnatifida, all which seem to be transitioning well and not showing any deficiency, no melting. However the Ludwigia sp. Mini Super Red has loss a bit of the red colorization but i am running my LED's on a dimmer to keep light level low during the first month of so.

Filtration and flow is provided via a ADA ES600 filter, distributing via a stainless steel outlet, and as suggest i have added a mini submerged pump to increase flow.





Here's a photo of my tank taken a moment ago (co2 is off at this time), you'll note that i have positioned submerged mini pump so that it throws the  water in the same direction of the filter outlet.

I actually was looking at the United Utilities website earlier today, as suggest by Foxfish to confirm my local parameters: As suggested my water is soft, so not sure why struggle so much to getting a 1 point drop in my ph, even after 7 hours of CO2 being turned on i'm getting only a .5/.6 drop in ph.

Here's a photo of my set up below the tank.





As suggested CO2 is diffused via an Up in-line diffuser, when it on I can't count the number of bps in the counter, its more of a constant stream.

All the visible hardscape is Seiryu stones, i also used some lava stone under substrate hardscape to create the height rather that just using the aqua soil alone, could this be these be adding alkalinity and preventing me achieving an 1 point ph drop?

I am now consider moving the diffuser to the intake side to feed Co2 directly to filter, hopefully this will improve my  C02 dissolution. Thou will likely mean more maintenance to keep diffuser clean, so not massively keen on moving it if i don't need to. Also will this not harden my filter o ring over time? 

Cheers.


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## steveno (9 Feb 2018)

Forgot to mention that i pruned my Ludwigia sp. Mini Super Red the other day, and also planted some Tropica Rotala Vietnam H'ra in the top left corner of the tank.


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## X3NiTH (9 Feb 2018)

With that type of inline and setup and water hardness you should be able to drop almost 2 full points in less than an hour if your maximally cranking the gas. Providing you are sure there are no leaks in the CO₂ line leading to the atomiser then the problem lies with the atomiser.

Unfortunately these types of inline are unreliable, even more so if it's the type you can dismantle for cleaning, I've been through three of these things, the plastic is prone to cracks from the pressure. The last type I had was the one you could dismantle, when this one was first set up I encountered the same issue as yourself in not being able to get required pH drop, the unit appears to work but I found the extra gas you add just gets blown out either between the ceramic and the water or between the ceramic and the hose end threads, to fix the leak I used PTFE gas tape around the threads to seal it up and I also used the tape on the ceramic at both ends to get a good seal between the air gap and the water (I did both because when I just did the threads first the extra gas pressure added went between the ceramic and straight into the water flowing through the hose as big bubbles).

There's a caveat to this fix, whilst I was able to fix mine first time this way another user on these forums did the same fix at my recommendation and the plastic parted at the hose side when he tightened the nut (user now using a Qanvee unit). I don't know how much PTFE was used in that case but I only used around 6 inches of tape. 

Unit is now dead by the way, usual plastic cracks at the glued construction seals and on the face of the atomiser, I used epoxy to try to seal the unit but the plastic just parted at the hose when I screwed it back together after adding fresh PTFE to seal the threads and came apart as I was tightening the nut, same as other user found.

A Qanvee unit is my next go at inline when it arrives.


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## steveno (9 Feb 2018)

Thanks X3Nith,

The up diffuse was brought off ebay, so could have been a knock off one, thou in saying it seems to be working, no visible signs as cracks, it not one that can be easily dismantled, and seems to be sending out a really fine mist as far i can tell.  

Will have a closer look at diffuser tomorrow, as it was new and seemed to be working didn't think to check closer. 

I had a quick look and cant seem to find a store in uk that sells the Qanvee unit.

Cheers for suggestion thou.


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## X3NiTH (10 Feb 2018)

This is what to look for.



 

This unit was used without issue for many months, performance would take a slight dip every now and then which would be evident as time to target pH drop extending over a period of a few days. The remedy for this was to clean the unit using a hose brush, function would return after this but then came the day that this didn't work, even cranking up the gas there was no change in performance. After lengthy troubleshooting and close inspection with a torch the above cracks were found. The replacement to this went the same way, they all went this way. PSI being used was between 20 and 30.

The Qanvee can be found on Amazon, it appears a far more robust construction and hopefully more resistant to ballooning under pressure (that's what the above damage is, material failure while ballooning under pressure), fingers crossed.


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## steveno (10 Feb 2018)

X3Nith,
="X3NiTH, post: 512754, member: 11958"]This is what to look for.





This unit was used without issue for many months, performance would take a slight dip every now and then which would be evident as time to target pH drop extending over a period of a few days. The remedy for this was to clean the unit using a hose brush, function would return after this but then came the day that this didn't work, even cranking up the gas there was no change in performance. After lengthy troubleshooting and close inspection with a torch the above cracks were found. The replacement to this went the same way, they all went this way. PSI being used was between 20 and 30.

The Qanvee can be found on Amazon, it appears a far more robust construction and hopefully more resistant to ballooning under pressure (that's what the above damage is, material failure while ballooning under pressure), fingers crossed.[/QUOTE]

Hello X3Nith,

That looks bad hope mine doesn't develop the same issue....

Today I moved my up atomiser to the inlet side, manage to get a slight improvement of a ph drop but still not manage to achieve the 1 point ph drop .

Guess I will need to play with injection rate, on the plus side now don't have the 7up look, I've noticed the occasional blurt of large co2 bubbles, but other that than crystal clear water.

I looked on Amazon and found the Qanvee m1 unit but not for sale unfortunately, I have however located it on eBay for £8 so pick one up.

Cheers


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## X3NiTH (10 Feb 2018)

If everything is gas tight another issue for poor performance is condensation from water evaporating from the bubble counter or being physically forced through the tubing to the atomiser when the unit is first turned on after it has depressurised overnight, water or condensation has no way out than through the ceramic, slowing its performance, the fix for this is not to use any liquid in the bubble counter or not refilling it once the water is gone and then just used as a check valve, or omit the bubble counter and replace with a check valve to prevent water from the atomiser going back up the line and into the regulator.


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## steveno (10 Feb 2018)

Hello X3Nith,

Interesting never thought the condensation in the atomizer unit would reduce performance, my unit has loads of condensation each morning. 

I guess i will turn gas on a little earlier then, but i still none the wiser why i can't achieve a 1 point ph drop even after gas has been on for over 7 hours, with my soft water and even after moving inline to the intake side. 

I've order an KH testing kit on Ceg's advise, to check my tanks water's alkalinity, tho i never though i would ever see Ceg suggesting getting a testing kit given his distaste for them.


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## NOWIS (11 Feb 2018)

Hi 
Your seiryu stone would be rasing your kh/gh
If u aren't doing full 50% water change weekly.
Adding co2 and seiryu rock is like a calcium reactor in a reef tank, co2 slowly dissolves the calcium and other minerals out of the stone. 
This could partly affect  you ph 1unit drop from happening.


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## steveno (11 Feb 2018)

Hello Simon or should i say Good Day.

Welcome to UKaps,

Thanks for the info, i do recall reading somewhere that seiryu rock effected water hardness, i actually doing 50% every 3/4 days at the moment given its a new setup.

I have just taken a ph reading of my tap water is 7ph, and as advise my tank ph before gas is turned on is 6.9/6.8 ph, so seems like something in my scape is actually lowering ph in tank, based on what you have just suggested i would expect my ph to increase slightly .

I will be testing my KH and GH levels once kit arrives, later today.

Btw lovely avatar image is that one of your scapes?

Cheers


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## steveno (11 Feb 2018)

Hello,

I've just tested my tanks current KH level using API testing kit.

My tank's ph at the time of test was ph 6.2. (ph of tank is normally 6.8/9 when not being Co2 enriched).

My tank water having C02 turned on for 7 hours took 12 drops of API solution to change from blue to orange, this equates to 214.8 ppm (i tested twice to be sure).

Using a online calculator, suggest that my tank has a dissolved C02 ppm of 226.8 , can this be right?

I understand the recommendation is achieve 30ppm, lucky i didn't have any livestock in tank... 

Really confused now , whats going on in my tank???

I assume i can dial back my CO2?

I also tested my tap water, KH ppm is only 35.8.


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## NOWIS (11 Feb 2018)

Hi steveno cheers for the welcome!
Ukaps has been great! So much quality info compared to other forums. 
Yes that's my 700l not much of a scape but lots of happy plants
Just thought I'd mention the seiryu stone because I was so surprise of its affect on my tank (not a great rock for large tanks and small water changes like mine)
I think the new aquasoil is keeping your ph low even with your high kh.
Could u check your tap water kh with the new test kit  to compare to aquarium water.
I think u have way to much co2 I would just work off the drop checker and not worry about 1.0 ph drop. 
Just my thoughts I'm sure the professionals might say different?


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## NOWIS (11 Feb 2018)

Sorry just saw u tested tap water


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## steveno (11 Feb 2018)

Hello Simon,

I think your right, my drop check has been yellow for the last couple of days, but my ph readings were telling me another thing, for now i'm going to dial back my Co2 and ensure it that it green/light green by the time Co2 is turned on. To be fair my drop hasn't turn back to blue since i've put it in the tank, prob because i was injecting so much Co2 despite what my tanks ph drop or lack of it was suggested.

I will continue to monitor my ph along with KH testing to ensure that i have around 30 ppm of Co2, once I've got control of my Co2 injection rate and my UG has got a better foothold immersed i will start to consider about livestock. 

Although i am keeping the initial diatoms in check with regular water changes, would like to add a clean up crew to assist me with some of the maintenance.

An aquasacpe isn't the same without any fish or shrimps.

You should consider setting up a journal of your tank, a happy planted tank is always good to see.

Cheers


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## NOWIS (12 Feb 2018)

Good luck with it, I think u have it sorted. Your scape looks great! Nice layout of stones. Looking forward to seeing those red stems creep up from the back.

I would like to do a journal one day soon on a new diy 100x80x60 LxWxH cm but life is just to busy right now


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## TomatoandEgg (12 Feb 2018)

really like this tank its just right. hope your carpeting woes sort themselves out


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## X3NiTH (12 Feb 2018)

How are you testing the pH, if you use the titration method then you can vigorously shake the test tube to smash all the CO₂ out of the water and this reading would be what your equilibrium pH is you managed to gas off all added CO₂ out of the tank overnight, you can watch the colour change happen quite quickly.

I reckon your equilibrium pH should read above 8 for that KH and you're probably managing to drop the pH about 1.8 - 2 points (I've been there purposely using potassium bicarbonate). Your KH is rising because the carbonic acid is eating the CaCO3 in the stone and you're not seeing a blue drop checker in the morning because you're not efficiently off gassing CO₂ overnight. 

Your atomiser is working as it should though!

Yeah I would dial back the gas a bit, a pH of about 6.9 is probably as far as you need to go for the current KH which is going to keep increasing because of the stone but less so if you remain near a neutral pH. You'll have a huge swing in KH at water change though if you're using tap to replace and you don't remineralise it to the same KH (some plants are not happy with changing conditions, notably Bucephalandra).

You will have to concentrate what the drop-checker is telling you and not what the pH is since that's now nearly meaningless as its only telling you what the pH is for the current KH which is rising due to the addition of CO₂ reacting with the stone. You can check the dropchecker is working by taking it out the tank and letting it equilibriate with the air, it should turn blue (aggitating it will make this happen faster).

When you get round to adding livestock they will quickly tell you what colour of drop checker they prefer.


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## steveno (12 Feb 2018)

Thanks Simon, 


Simon Hellmich said:


> Looking forward to seeing those red stems creep up from the back.


The Ludwigia sp. Mini Super Red are not so red now, they were super red during DSM, however after flooding they lost some of their redness but did grow quite tall quite quickly almost as tall the main stone but i pruned them and compacted them with clipping behind the main stone. This left me a bear space in the top left corner where i have planted some Rotala Vietnam H'ra, these are meant to produce nice orange/ red leaf in the right conditions, i only plant them last Friday so we'll see. Saw them being used in a scape that Jurijs was doing during one of George Farmers live video scapes. Finger cross they fill out can that lovely colorization as advertised by Tropica .

Hello Tomateandegg, 


TomatoandEgg said:


> really like this tank its just right. hope your carpeting woes sort themselves out


Very kind of you say, the layout was meant to be a simple Iwagumi arrangement, I chose UG this time round as i never had much success creating a creating a carpet with it, particularly when i had Armano shrimp who would pull out any clumps i planted within a day. it's living up to it's reputation as a very difficult plant to carpet even without shrimp to tear it apart. With very shallow roots i should have used the fine aqua soil rather than the slightly cheaper normal sized aqua soil , its a constant battle to keep it rooted in the substrate , thou i do have quite a bit of flow, which this plant apparently also likes. Like i said it living up to this reputation.

Good Morning X3nith,
I'm using a ph pen, I calibrated it with some buffered ph 7 water to make sure it was giving the right reading. I've taken my drop check out of the tank as you have suggested, so will see later today if changes back to blue. While i was setting up the scape, i chose the cheaper option to use what ever stones i had laying around rather than getting some inert stone , i vaguely remembered that the seiryu rock would effect my water parameter, didn't expect or recall it effecting my water to this extent. 

Yeah, it seems my inline atomizer is working correctly for the time being, but will certainly be keeping a closer eye on it now.,thou i have now picked up a Quavan M1 unit, so may gave that unit a ago once it arrives. Now that i have it injecting directly in to the filter, I'm really liking the mist free appearance, so going to keep it injecting in to the filter for the time being.

I'll will dial back my CO2 injection, but bps is subjective as every bubble counter is different, as suggested i will be using a combination of checking drop checker (once it's working) and continuing checking but ph and kh level to ensure i an around 30ppm of dissovle C02 just before and while Co2 is turned on. I rather get everything balanced and not test my tank water with live stock . 

Cheers Guys.


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## dw1305 (12 Feb 2018)

Hi all,





steveno said:


> I think your right, my drop check has been yellow for the last couple of days


OK, it is probably to just ignore the pH, online calculator and dKH test results. The drop checker results will be right, and can be relied upon. There is an explanation of why in <"Water testing">.





steveno said:


> I'm using a ph pen, I calibrated it with some buffered ph 7 water to make sure it was giving the right reading.


If you want to use the pH pen you have to buy a proper pH7 buffer, and buffer the probe before every use. If the pen has two-point calibration? you need to buy both pH7 and pH4 buffers, and store the probe in the correct storage solution (usually 4M KCl). We make up the storage solution, but even in the lab. we buy the pH buffers in, they are too time consuming to make and pH results are meaningless without them.

The problem with pH is that it isn't a straight forward measurement once you get away from strong acid and strong base solutions. 





steveno said:


> My tank water having C02 turned on for 7 hours took 12 drops of API solution to change from blue to orange, this equates to 214.8 ppm





steveno said:


> Using a online calculator, suggest that my tank has a dissolved C02 ppm of 226.8 , can this be right?


*CO2 ~ carbonate equilibrium *

You don't need to know the next bit, you can rely on the drop checker, but it helps if you are adding CO2.

The reasons for the strange dKH results are that when you *add CO2 to water with some <"carbonate buffering">* you change the CO2~HCO3-~CO3--~pH equilibrium, which is based upon the ~400ppm of CO2 in the atmosphere, and the very small proportion of that CO2 that goes into solution as carbonic acid (H2CO3).

That carbonic acid then disassociates into H+ and HCO3- ions, and acids are defined as <"H+ ion donors">, <"so in pure water the pH would fall">. Limestone or "calcium carbonate" (CaCO3) is insoluble in water, but soluble in acids (it is a base or H+ ion acceptor), and at 400ppm CO2, any dKH in the water gives you a pH of ~pH8.

As you add elevated levels of CO2 more H+ ions go into solution and the pH falls. Some of the, formerly insoluble, CaCO3 goes into solution as Ca++ and CO3-- ions, which then convert to 2HCO3- ions (below pH8).





The graph is from <"Biogenic decalcification"> and this is what happens at 400ppm CO2, but *for any other value of atmospheric CO2 you would get a different set of equilibrium values. 
*
The <"pH/CO2 chart"> was experimentally defined for a basic solution (H+ ion acceptor) with a carbonate hardness of 4dKH. It can be used with <"a drop checker when you are adding CO2">, it can't be used for anything else.

cheers Darrel


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## zgmarkozg (12 Feb 2018)

very nice tank!


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## David Shanahan (12 Feb 2018)

Hello fellow Mancunian and ADA 60p owner. Living in Manchester I can tell you that my drop checkers are both of the green variety and I don’t really have too many issues. I have had some BBA in my 60p and a little Diatoms in my 30cm, but Not too much of either. I just turned the lights down a tad and turned up the Co2 a bit. All under control. 

Tank looks great though. Hope you don’t suffocate anything. 

Drop checker in picture. I get it lime green by lights out.


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## steveno (12 Feb 2018)

Hello Darrel,

Thank you for thorougher exploration, but if I'm completely honest i probably understood only about 50%, it could be that i have had quite a long day and my brain is completely fried , probably not thou...lol

I actually purchased my ph 7 buffer awhile ago, my ph pen is also cheap one brought from amazon, so cant be sure if is me any giving any rouge readings, jsut as well you said i can...


dw1305 said:


> ignore the pH, online calculator and dKH test results



As you have suggested I can rely on my drop checker, i wanted to check that it was working so took my drop checker out of tank in the morning before i went to work, came home to see that it had turned back to blue, thou i'm not sure how long it took to revert back. Tonight I have done a 60% water change and put drop check back in and it has stayed blue even after a few hours, which would seems right as not currently injecting any Co2.



zgmarkozg said:


> very nice tank!


Thanks Zgmarkozg,
However it still far from where I am hoping to get to... 

Cheers Planty,
Your scape looks great, i guess we both benefit from the lovely water we have up north.
As suggested my drop checker went light green/yellow and never reverted back to blue... 


Planty said:


> Hope you don’t suffocate anything.


 me too, probably would have if i had livestock in my tank. Fortunately I haven't rushed and loaded tank with any fish and shrimp yet, thou I cant say i haven't thought about it, i would love to add some living stock but need to resist the urge until everything is balanced. Patience will win the day with UG....

Cheers guys


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## X3NiTH (13 Feb 2018)

It's probably worth using an airstone at night to gas off a significant amount of CO₂ so that the drop checker is blue by the start of the each injection period.


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## steveno (13 Feb 2018)

Thanks X3Nith,

I was actually thinking the same thing, i used to do the same in my previous scapes (a few years ago). Last night i was seeing if i could adjust the position of outlet or mini pump to create some more surface agitation, but due to design of both outlet and  pump this was proving very difficult to achieve, so i guess i will having to install and airstone, i think i still got my air pump laying around somewhere. Thou I was trying to keep equipment in tank to a minimum. 

I've also got an Twinstar installed, I know its still a on going discussion but dose this not super air-rate the water with micro bubbles?

Water change seems to have reset tank, the drop checker has remain blue, thou with a slightly green tinge.


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## ceg4048 (13 Feb 2018)

steveno said:


> Using a online calculator, suggest that my tank has a dissolved C02 ppm of 226.8 , can this be right?


 Hi,


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## ceg4048 (13 Feb 2018)

steveno said:


> I've just tested my tanks current KH level using API testing kit.
> 
> My tank's ph at the time of test was ph 6.2. (ph of tank is normally 6.8/9 when not being Co2 enriched).
> 
> ...


Hello,
         Like so many other hobbyist, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the pH/KH/CO2 chart. The chart, viewed outside of the context of our reality is meaningless and leads many people down the wrong path. As I mentioned to you before I do not like to suggest the purchase of any hobby grade test kit but in this case, pH, KH and GH use simple titration of acids which are predictable, however, most people really have no idea what pH, KH or GH actually are, so it is just as easy to be fooled by the test results as it is to be fooled by the data in the chart.

The first truth you need to realize is that KH test kit cannot actually measure KH. That's because the test's result of it's titration can be due, not only to Carbonate/Bicarbonate, but also due to Silicates, Borates, Phosphates, Sulfates, Hydroxide and even Ammonia as well as other organic alkaline substances.

So many times, the KH test kit lies to you because it is fooled by other substances in the water that it "thinks" is Carbonate.
other times, the KH test kit tells you the truth because these other substances are either absent from the water or are present only in negligible amounts.
Unfortunately, you never really know which case is your case, so you unwittingly plug the number into your chart and so garbage in equals garbage out, and that's one of the reasons your chart returns an absurd number.

Are you getting the picture yet? Test kits cannot be trusted. You must learn and understand what their limitations are and learn what information they are actually telling you. When you read the data on a chart you must have context as to what assumptions are being made in the charts presentation.
When you have this understanding you may then be able to find a way to use the data to your advantage without being outwitted by it.

The same pathetic events occur with other test kits such as Nitrogen and Phosphorous test kits. They are often fooled by other chemicals in the water, so they cannot really be trusted.

Further reading here:
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads...ng-ro-with-tap-water.51704/page-2#post-510813

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/60ltr-at-4bps.39305/page-2#post-510485

Cheers,


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## David Shanahan (13 Feb 2018)

My drop checker never turns blue. I don’t think it’s ever caused me any issues.


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## steveno (13 Feb 2018)

Hello Ceg,
You're are right I don't fully understand the numbers or the science behind it, even after both yours and Darrel thorougher explanation, true be told I didn't actually believe the results i got using the on line calculator, hence why i was questioning it.  To be far i hadn't actually planned on purchasing any testing kit, been a lurker here long enough and read enough post to know that test kit are not to be trusted on face value, I only did so at your suggestion,  and i was hoping you might be able to intrepid my readings. 

Like many people, I've joined this forum for inspiration, and posted not to receive compliment, more rather to gain a better understanding, learn and get advise from people who are much more knowledgeable, like yourself and others who have kindly taken the time to offer their views and advise. 

Thanks for the links you have provided, it very much appreciated, i will take a look. 

Hey Planty, 
That's good to know, to be fair if i recall correctly in my previous scapes i did always struggle to get the drop checker to revert back to being blue, and i managed to the keep both fish and shrimp without any issues.

Cheers


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## David Shanahan (13 Feb 2018)

You’ll do fine. You get some good advice here from fellow scapers. I tend to not look at my drop checker, it just tells me when my Co2 is running out these days. I was hugely fortunate last year to visit ADA gallery. I walked around with one of the guys that worked on Oceanário de Lisboa for about an hour asking questions. He gave me tons of advice and walked me through bit by bit. My scapes have never looked so good and I don’t measure anything anymore. It’s all done by eye knowing what to look for in my plants, how to do proper maintenance, how to maintain filters etc. Nothing like having some face time with a professional. The plane ticket was worth it


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## steveno (14 Feb 2018)

Cheers Planty,
You're probably right  i think i got myself in a bit of spin trying to chase the recommended 1ph drop that i forgot the most important thing and just see what my plants are telling me, I've spent enough time look at them .






I came across this the other day, on one of the threads on this forum, though i cant remember who's just took a copy of the image (cheers for posting it btw) .

Although i do intend to get some livestock in tank at some point, so it important that I'm not over injecting Co2 when i do.

Actually as it half term taking my lado with me to spent a few day in Lisbon next week, intend to spend a quite a few hours at the aquarium. Really looking forward to it, and fingers crossed later in the year planning on visiting japan and hopefully Niigata to visit the Nature Aquarium Gallery . I recall reading about your visit on one of your threads, disappointed to hear you're not allow to take photo's thou.


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## David Shanahan (14 Feb 2018)

Yea, i really wanted to. Looks like you have to be a retailer if you want to take pictures.You might get lucky depending on the person that is in the gallery keeping an eye on you. 

If you’re going to Japan, then highly recommend you getting a JR rail pass. I stayed in Tokyo, but did a day in Niigata. Not much going on there. The rail pass cost £110 but meant I could travel on any JR rail within a certain region which included the bullet train to a Niigata. It also included the train to Maki station where I got a taxi from outside the station. That way you can get to Sumida at Skytree town in Tokyo too.

I’d love to go to Lisbon and see that one too. Plans for my birthday maybe. Definitely go to see Fuji. I went on a tour from Tokyo with Viator which included Fuji, Lake Ashi, the Hakone ropeway and lunch for £110. 

They also do city tours as Mario Kart. You get to drive around in a cart with a tour guide dressed as Luigi or Mario, or Donkey Kong. You need to book in advance. If I knew before I went it would have been on the list


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## Kalum (14 Feb 2018)

Where did you get the seiryu stone from? Looks great


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## steveno (14 Feb 2018)

Hello Planty, 

Thanks for the suggestions, we will be likely be staying in Tokyo for 5 days but the misses isn't keen on going to Niigate . i would also love to do the mariokart tour but my lad is only 9 , I'm told we can only do family stuff and only stuff we can do together  and traveling to Niigate to see the Nature Aquarium isn't consider family stuff. , spoil sport!!! 

Wondering if there are any ADA exhibitions in Tokyo, might be able to persuade the misses to go.


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## steveno (14 Feb 2018)

Hello Kalum,

Kalum said: ↑
Where did you get the seiryu stone from? Looks great
Cheers, the Green Machine, they were the biggest pieces they had at the time (a number of years ago), as suggested when I set up this scape I used what i had to hand, to get more height I used some lava stone in filter bags under substrate.

Thou to be fair if i was to do again i might try to get something more inert, so it didn't effect water, as you can see i have a bit of a difficult time due to them, thou i still like the appearance of them.


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## Kalum (14 Feb 2018)

Thanks Steveno, hard to find a place that shows pictures of the actual stones before you buy and with them being expensive it's pretty big gamble, I literally ordered some lava rock and egg crate earlier so good to know it works OK!

You seem to be getting on pretty well and just have a few new tank teething issues, there' nonly fun in it being too easy after all..... 

The released calcium from the rock would actually be good for me as I'll be keeping shrimp so saves dosing as much


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## steveno (14 Feb 2018)

Hello Kalum,

I actually when to the green machine and picked them out, they had a sand pit so i could try a few scape using different pieces, it wasn't to long a drive from  Manchester, but its another thing entirely driving to Wrexham from Scotland.  

I've recently seen/ read a few threads about a few people ordering large stones and complete layouts online, thou its not the cheapest option. Here's Planty's ( sorry Plant, hope you don't mind)

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/large-aquascaping-rocks-needed-40cm-or-so.50284/

Lovely betta you have in your avatar image, wont mind keeping one myself, perhaps in my nano tank as my next project


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## steveno (14 Feb 2018)

Hello Ceg,



ceg4048 said:


> Further reading here:
> https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads...ng-ro-with-tap-water.51704/page-2#post-510813
> 
> https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/60ltr-at-4bps.39305/page-2#post-510485



Thanks for providing links to these two threads, interesting reading, must have missed them or forgotten the discussion, they have given me a lot to think about, and a bit more of a better stir of what you were suggesting, thou would have been easier if you provided the links in the first place, rather than letting me fill in the gaps myself and completely misinterpret the point you were making .

Cheers


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## Kalum (14 Feb 2018)

If only I had somewhere in Scotland like that, I'd be there in a heartbeat playing about in the sand like a 5 year old

Ah that's brilliant I read that thread a while ago while I was setting up my last tank and ruled it out but that's the exact sort of direction I want to go with my new tank so cheers for the reminder! Will shoot then an email tomorrow

Cheers he's a wee character, it's crazy how much of a personality they have, he's also the most chilled betta I've ever heard of or seen of and just does his own thing and seems to be doing well, a nano tank around 20-50L is a perfect wee setup for them on their own


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## David Shanahan (15 Feb 2018)

steveno said:


> I actually when to the green machine and picked them out, they had a sand pit so i could try a few scape using different pieces, it wasn't to long a drive from  Manchester, but its another thing entirely driving to Wrexham from Scotland.



And here was me thinking Scotland was full of Rocks.



steveno said:


> Hello Kalum,
> I've recently seen/ read a few threads about a few people ordering large stones and complete layouts online, thou its not the cheapest option. Here's Planty's ( sorry Plant, hope you don't mind)



Yes, ordered online, but only because I was struggling to get anything of a large size and some of the stuff at Green Machine needed a second mortgage. I got Siryu stone from World of Water in Timperly, but they are a big retailer, so check if you have one near you and give them a call. They might be able to get some from their supplier.


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## ceg4048 (15 Feb 2018)

steveno said:


> Hello Ceg,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ha ha, yes, that's a good point. sorry....

Cheers,


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