# Algae from hell - aggressive growth of basically every type in a 4 month old tank



## spleenharvester (7 Jan 2021)

Hi everyone, would really appreciate some help!

I have a relatively new planted tank (established Sept 2020) that I've had serious algae problems with since about a month after filling it.

*Tank:* Juwel Rio 180L, 1000lph pump upgrade w/spray bar, substrate is sand
*Lighting:* 1x 6500K and 1x 9000K bulbs, both 17W LED
*Photoperiod*: Currently about 8-10 hours - I've tried several day blackouts and reducing to 5 hours and it's made very little difference to be honest
*Inhabitants:* Plants are mostly anubias, echinodorus, lots of frogbit and marimo moss balls, other plants that I'm not sure of the identity of. Livestock is 5 guppies, 5 otocinclus, 3 kuhli loaches and a female betta.

Initially I had an outbreak of BBA, staghorn, GSA and GHA all pretty much at once. Tank maintenance consisted of 75% water change once per week, with gravel vac and cleaning of filter. Here is the wonderful sight I was treated to:






I then tried to treat with AlgExit and it didn't really do anything other than turn the water and pretty much everything else green (cyanobacteria?):





Eventually I lost it and just decided to bin all of the plants and driftwood because the BBA had basically wrecked them anyway. I then made the following changes about two weeks ago:

Started dosing Seachem Excel Fluorish, 5mL once per day (there have also been Fluorish root tabs in the sand since the beginning)
Reduced water changes to about 30% once per week, and SymecMicro microfibre fleece added for 24 hours after each change
Added completely new plants and driftwood
This seems to have eliminated the staghorn entirely, but a few weeks on small BBA growths have begun appearing again and I'm getting quite aggressive brown and green hair algae blooms. The below is just a couple days after water change - the past few times it's gotten much worse than this by the time water change is due, the whole front of the glass gets covered in green hair algae.









What is interesting is that my second tank - a 57L Fluval Flex - does not get any BBA at all, only a modest amount of brown algae. The tap water source, substrate, food etc is all the same, so I think I can reasonably rule those out.

Any ideas what else I can try? I want to add much more plants but I'm worried I will just end up having to bin them again in two weeks time. Other than replacing that 9000K bulb I'm a bit lost for ideas to be honest.

Thank you all in advance!


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## Tim Harrison (7 Jan 2021)

Welcome 

Buy more plants, a lot more plants, especially ones with leaves that grow across the surface like vallis.
Reduce photoperiod to 6hrs
Water column dose fertz, ready mix all in one like TNC Complete.
Don't bury Anubias rhizomes in substrate, they'll die. 
Maybe think about using a more nutritious substrate.

Read, and then read some more. 









						The Soil Substrate or Dirted Planted Tank - A How to Guide
					

The Soil Substrate Planted Tank - a How to Guide...  ...or Zen and an Introduction to the Art of Underwater Gardening with Soil or Dirt... ...or The Hybrid-Energy Approach.  Introduction In writing this I hope to illustrate that using soil substrate offers a range of possibilities and that it's...



					www.ukaps.org
				









						Aquarium Algae ID (updated May6th '10 Surface Skum)
					

Many articles on the net are preaching that reducing nitrates and phosphates will help keeping algae low. In non-planted tanks, maybe! But in planted tanks NO! Thanks to people like Tom Barr, Greg Watson and Diana Walstad aquatic plant growing isn’t that difficult anymore.Plants need more...




					aquariumalgae.blogspot.com
				





			James' Planted Tank - Algae Guide
		










						Non Co2 Methods
					

Non co2 methods for planted tanks




					barrreport.com


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## Siege (7 Jan 2021)

No co2, a lot less light - 6 hours is good.

more surface agitation - so a lot of surface ripple, 23 degrees. The more oxygen the better,

Tim is right a lot more plants. Add some root tabs for food.

Minimal fish food once a day. Don’t feed one day a week.

Big water changes, get all the algae out, don’t be afraid to go as low as you can. Remove waste at the same time, that algae is feeding on something.

clean the filter out.

check out george farmer and green aqua on you tube, get George’s book If you want, listen to his podcast.
basically follow one person and copy their methods, don’t add too many recipes into the mix and you’ll have success.👍

Don’t worry about testing, it won’t help.

Just some pointers!

S.


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## spleenharvester (7 Jan 2021)

That's awesome, thank you 

I forgot to add, my nitrate levels are chronically low, about 5-10ppm even before water changes - I'd assumed higher levels produced more algae so it's interesting to read otherwise!

I've ordered some TNC Complete and will drop the (many) plants I've ordered straight into the tank, hopefully that'll help smooth things out. Will post back with some progress hopefully.


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## Siege (7 Jan 2021)

Nitrate sounds low ( don’t worry about it though, that’s a nice level). I wouldn’t trust the test kit, maybe??

check out your water board website for a full report. That’ll tell you whats coming out of the tap.

big water changes and you’ll be changing basically tap water for tapwater. Again check out George farmers YouTube video on water change method to make it easy for you.


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## spleenharvester (7 Jan 2021)

I'm pretty sure it's a valid reading, both NTLabs and API liquid test kits return the same results - a less heavily planted tank returns 15~30ppm as expected, and tap water here averages 15ppm. My LFS was skeptical too, but it does seem like it is going somewhere. Just not really sure where, as you can see it's not that heavily planted.

Will take a look, thanks!


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## Siege (7 Jan 2021)

Check out the water board website, that’ll tell you 👍


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## dw1305 (7 Jan 2021)

Hi all,


spleenharvester said:


> lots of frogbit


Can we have a picture of the Frogbit? Because it is a floating plant, it has access to aerial CO2 and is used to growing in <"bright tropical light"> and it can give us an <"idea of nutrient status">.


spleenharvester said:


> 1000lph pump upgrade w/spray bar............Tank maintenance consisted of 75% water change once per week, with gravel vac and cleaning of filter.


It might sound a bit of a strange question, but what filter media do you have? Do you just have the sponges? and if you do what PPI are they? and when you clean them are they collapsed?

cheers Darrel


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## Aqua sobriquet (7 Jan 2021)

Buy some Shrimps, mine do a great job of eating all kinds of unwanted stuff.


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## jaypeecee (7 Jan 2021)

Hi @spleenharvester 

Surplus nutrients in the tank* + light gives rise to algae growth. More plants will help to mop up the nutrients as will reducing the amount of added fertilizers. Turning to lighting, others have mentioned reducing the photoperiod. Are you able to reduce lighting _intensity_, i.e. are your lights on a dimmer? Picking up on the suggestion made by @dw1305, the use of floating plants obviously reduces the light intensity in the water column itself. So, you can use that to your advantage. Obviously, you would probably need to select plants that don't require bright lighting if you go down this route.

I disagree that doing a few basic tests won't help but it's your call.

* water column + substrate

JPC


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## Andy Pierce (7 Jan 2021)

What kind of filter are you using - is there something that will let a colony of beneficial bacteria be established?  When you do the water changes, the "cleaning of filter" you mention, whatever you're doing there maybe you shouldn't do it to let the beneficial bacteria have something to colonise.  Unless you see chunky debris in the filter I suggest you don't mess with it.  I have an "under substrate" filter and I never (really, never) clean it.  Agree with the shrimps - the usual recommendation is 1 amano shrimp per 5 litres of water.


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## spleenharvester (8 Jan 2021)

Siege said:


> Check out the water board website, that’ll tell you 👍



That's where I got the 15ppm figure from, and it looks pretty close in the API test 



dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Can we have a picture of the Frogbit? Because it is a floating plant, it has access to aerial CO2 and is used to growing in <"bright tropical light"> and it can give us an <"idea of nutrient status">.
> 
> ...





Andy Pierce said:


> What kind of filter are you using - is there something that will let a colony of beneficial bacteria be established?  When you do the water changes, the "cleaning of filter" you mention, whatever you're doing there maybe you shouldn't do it to let the beneficial bacteria have something to colonise.  Unless you see chunky debris in the filter I suggest you don't mess with it.  I have an "under substrate" filter and I never (really, never) clean it.  Agree with the shrimps - the usual recommendation is 1 amano shrimp per 5 litres of water.



Certainly, pic of frogbit is below. Also below is a diagram of how my Bioflow M 3.0 filter is set up, it's very different to the manufacturer setup. The lower biogravel basket is never removed for cleaning; the sponges are removed and squeezed out in a bucket of tank water removed during water changes, as they get absolutely rammed full of green algae (the water literally turns opaque green). Unsure of PPI beyond the stack being course --> medium --> wool. I'm not sure what collapsed would look like, but they look no different to when they were newly added (aside from being dirtier of course!).



 





Aqua sobriquet said:


> Buy some Shrimps, mine do a great job of eating all kinds of unwanted stuff.



Am tempted to try this 



jaypeecee said:


> Hi @spleenharvester
> 
> Surplus nutrients in the tank* + light gives rise to algae growth. More plants will help to mop up the nutrients as will reducing the amount of added fertilizers. Turning to lighting, others have mentioned reducing the photoperiod. Are you able to reduce lighting _intensity_, i.e. are your lights on a dimmer? Picking up on the suggestion made by @dw1305, the use of floating plants obviously reduces the light intensity in the water column itself. So, you can use that to your advantage. Obviously, you would probably need to select plants that don't require bright lighting if you go down this route.
> 
> ...



Hopefully my new plants will help then - I'm pretty sure the light's not directly dimmable unfortunately, and I believe Juwel's fittings are proprietary so I can only choose between their bulbs. More floating plants sounds like a good plan - though I'm going to have to think up some way of stopping them getting pushed to the other side of the tank, as the spray bar is directly above the planted plants!

Thanks again everyone. Here is a bonus pic of some GHA that has sprung up practically overnight:


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## dw1305 (8 Jan 2021)

Hi all,


spleenharvester said:


> Certainly, pic of frogbit is below.


They looks pretty healthy. I'd let them cover a larger area of the surface, and that may help with you "green water" issues for the reason @jaypeecee mentions.


spleenharvester said:


> I'm not sure what collapsed would look like, but they look no different to when they were newly added (aside from being dirtier of course!).


That sounds fine, if they are a fine grade of foam (PPI30 or higher) the stronger pump can compress the foams and then you get water bypass.


spleenharvester said:


> The lower biogravel basket is never removed for cleaning


I'd be tempted to give it rinse, particularly  if it has a <"very thick biofilm layer">? People are always (justifiably) worried about losing their "cycle" but things are slightly different <"when you have plants">.

A lot of purveyors of filter media etc talk about <"anaerobic nitrification"> as a good thing, but I don't personally subscribe to that view.

cheers Darrel


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## GHNelson (8 Jan 2021)

Hi
You have a two large reflective surfaces, background and the substrate which can be a magnet for algae outbreaks with high lighting!
I would remove the sand and add a darker substrate or reduce lighting with a lot of floating plants to help reduce the light onto both the surfaces!








						Using stem plants as a filtering aid at Start Up!
					

The subject of using fast-growing stem plants as part of a filtering aid has cropped up a few times recently. This idea has been around for a long time so not new,....it has benefits especially for a new set - up. I try and cover at least 50% of the water surface minimum.  1. Improves water...



					www.ukaps.org
				



Give your filter a good clean also the bio gravel basket....change the replace the filter wool with a new pad or filter floss.
hoggie


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## Andy Pierce (8 Jan 2021)

dw1305 said:


> A lot of purveyors of filter media etc talk about <"anaerobic nitrification"> as a good thing, but I don't personally subscribe to that view.


Although under some conditions you might get anaerbic production of nitrogen gas (Anaerobic nitrification–denitrification mediated by Mn-oxides in meso-tidal sediments: Implications for N2 and N2O production), to the degree that might ever happen in an aquarium with biogravel and produce a sufficiently large amount of gas that would be visible as bubbles, I've never seen it and I've tried to look reasonably carefully.  Anyone else ever seen bubbles coming off biogravel?


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## spleenharvester (8 Jan 2021)

Thanks all  I ripped the tank apart today, pulled the filter out, fully cleaned both baskets and thoroughly vacuumed the sand. Added a ton of plants and some new mopani wood (hopefully I've planted them correctly this time!):





Existing plants have been clipped of BBA-infested leaves and dipped in a concentrated Excel solution before returning to the tank. I've also taken the BBA-infected Anubia leaf shown at the bottom of the OP and left it in that solution overnight, to see if it is at all possible to cure infected leaves.

Going forward the photoperiod has been reduced to 6 hours and I'm going to look into options to dim the lights in some way. I'm gonna try reducing light rather than replacing substrate first, as I love how the sand looks and my other sandy tank is doing much better, but it's on the cards as a last resort. I did wonder if it was perhaps the reflectiveness of the sand + the strong lights that were feeding it primarily.

I'm gonna look into getting even more stem plants per the mentioned link and some more floating plants up at that back wall, as it seems like the leaves closest to the lights are where the problem usually begins.

Will let you know how it goes!


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## GHNelson (8 Jan 2021)

Mopani wood will leach tannis.....which will give you a Blackwater type look!
Java fern shouldnt be planted in the sand.


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## spleenharvester (13 Jan 2021)

Hello again everyone

Going well so far - haven't changed anything since the last post - still zero growth of BBA or green algae, just diatoms (which I can live with as they'll keep my otos nice and fat!). Plants are growing really quickly too. Still having trouble weighting the things down without burying them to death - I'm going to design a 3D printable "weight" for the plants that'll keep them held down but with the roots suspended above the sand.





Today I made a number of changes. Dimmed the rear bulb as that top rear area is where the problems always seem to start. To do this I bought a Juwel HiFlex reflector and pulled the reflector foil off it, then angled the light towards the front of the tank a bit more:





I've also added the first dose of TNC complete today. Lights are now on an automated timer as they were previously being turned on at wildly varying times of the day (I have a sleep cycle disorder so this was the only way to make it consistent) - unsure if this is contributing but it certainly can't hurt.

The leaf cutting infected with BBA from the post a week ago has been sat in concentrated Prime Excel ever since - heavy green algae death was observed very quickly, but most of the BBA is still clinging on tightly (though whether it is still viable for growth is another question). So if Prime Excel is having a beneficial effect, it more than likely is through supporting the growth of other plants, rather than direct algecidal activity.





Will update with more progress later on.

Cheers


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## spleenharvester (16 Jan 2021)

Update - found BBA all around the edge of this plant that I can't remember the name of (left, can't really see it in the picture). No others are affected so I'm not entirely sure why this one. Going to remove it. Bonus pic of some otos snarfing veggies.


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## spleenharvester (28 Jan 2021)

Further update, I've removed a plant (looks a bit like creeping jenny but unsure exactly what it is?) that kept growing a bit of BBA despite pruning, there was a bit of it at the time of the last post too. Zero BBA in any other area of the tank still though, and it's even more heavily planted than a few weeks ago, so I think I'm nearly free of it now


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## spleenharvester (2 Feb 2021)

Ok bad news, found an echinodorus mostly coated in thin BBA. Not a huge thick infestation, but enough for me to scrap the plant.

Only thing I can really think of doing is swapping the bulbs around - currently the 6500K bulb is the one covered up at the rear of the tank, and the 9000K bulb is uncovered/providing most of the lighting - would swapping the 6500K into the front position possibly help to attenuate the growth?


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## dw1305 (2 Feb 2021)

Hi all,


spleenharvester said:


> Further update, I've removed a plant (looks a bit like creeping jenny but unsure exactly what it is?) that kept growing a bit of BBA despite pruning,





spleenharvester said:


> Update - found BBA all around the edge of this plant that I can't remember the name of (left, can't really see it in the picture). No others are affected so I'm not entirely sure why this one. Going to remove it.





spleenharvester said:


> I ripped the tank apart today, pulled the filter out, fully cleaned both baskets and thoroughly vacuumed the sand. Added a ton of plants and some new mopani wood (hopefully I've planted them correctly this time!):





spleenharvester said:


> Not a huge thick infestation, but enough for me to scrap the plant.


I'm not being funny, but if you keep scrapping every plant as soon as it has some algae, you are going to struggle to ever get any stability in the tank, and <"stable tanks with a large plant mass"> are much more likely to be trouble free.

It is less than a month from your "_I ripped the tank apart today ......_" post. No-one wants to have a tank full of algae, but most of us will have experienced it <"at some point">.

cheers Darrel


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## spleenharvester (3 Feb 2021)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hi, thanks for this - I am scrapping them under the impression that BBA can't be removed once it has embedded themselves into leaves, with the thinking that removing BBA that has taken hold reduces the risk of it spreading to other leaves - is this not the case? I've tried various "in vitro" experiments with diluted H2O2, Fluorish Excel treatment etc... the leaves always died long before the BBA started to suffer.

Ta


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## alto (3 Feb 2021)

I think adding a more complex algae crew will help 

Japonica/Amano shrimp 

Short nose algae shrimp - seems to be various species that ship under this label, this is fairly typical appearance Denticulata

Red nose/long nose shrimp - often listed a Caridina graciliostris sp. though again various species may ship, these seem to be the best BBA shrimp, but some report poor survival of these shrimp in freshwater aquaria
These usually startle easily and are extraordinary jumpers

Elongata (may occur as contaminants in both the short nose and long nose shipments)

Tiger shrimp - these are better algae “eaters” than most cherry shrimp (which still help as they consume biofilm and clean up melting plant material) Tiger

SAE - Siamese algae eaters - look for juveniles as they are most effective, again a few species may ship, while all consume algae as juveniles, some become predominantly fish food consumers as they mature 
Seriously Fish offers profiles on several species https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/crossocheilus-langei/ (Notes)

Garra species - Filipe Oliveira is keen on the “panda” variant  Panda garra, Garra flavatra

Nerite snails - these may bless your aquarium with loads of tiny white eggs, though the “batik” Nerites don’t release any eggs in my tanks  

Clithon corona snails - best BBA consumer in the snail group (but seem more sensitive to improper shipping)


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## alto (3 Feb 2021)

Plants that have healthy roots systems, rhizomes, rosettes, tubers, thick stems will often overcome BBA and various algaes as long as they have supporting environments

Glancing back, it seems you removed a Cryptocoryne sp. rather than just cutting back the leaves
I’d do the same with the Echinodorus (ie, keep in the tank and provide supportive care)
Large daily water changes and physical removal of algae will go a long ways to limiting algae

Seachem Excel - this seems to have variable results, it’s most effective as an algicide when used occasionally
But depending upon water conditions may provide some CO2 (degradation process in water), also some plants can use the cyclic glutaraldhyde compounds directly (as an adaptation)

As you don’t have a nutrient rich substrate, you should dose the water column daily with a suitable aquatic plant fertilizer
You can also place aquarium suitable root tabs near plants that are heavy/preferred root feeders (eg, Cryptocorynes, Echinodorus) - rather than going the DIY route, I’d buy Tropica Nutrition Capsules (as they only breakdown via bacterial process and won’t just dissolve in water)


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## dw1305 (3 Feb 2021)

Hi all, 


spleenharvester said:


> with the thinking that removing BBA that has taken hold reduces the risk of it spreading to other leaves - is this not the case?


What @alto says. 

We don't what causes BBA "outbreaks", we have a couple of <"(long) threads"> which <"summarise all we know">, but we don't have any firm conclusions. 

cheers Darrel


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## spleenharvester (3 Feb 2021)

Thanks for your guidance all - I will avoid discarding the BBA affected plants from now on and see how it goes, will look at getting a more advanced clean up crew too.

Cheers


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## spleenharvester (19 Feb 2021)

Hi all, does this look like BBA or staghorn growing on my vallisneria? It's only on the areas directly under the tank light. There are small BBA growths around the tank - haven't touched any of the plants since my last post per previous discussion. Will be purchasing a proper CO2 system shortly so I can ditch the liquid carbon (or should I keep dosing the liquid carbon for a longer period of time instead to prevent stability issues?).






I'm also starting to plan on replacing most of the sand substrate at the rear of the tank with soil.


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## dw1305 (19 Feb 2021)

Hi all, 


spleenharvester said:


> does this look like BBA or staghorn


Stagshorn, plant growth looks good in the photo. 

cheers Darrel


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## alto (23 Feb 2021)

spleenharvester said:


> growing on my vallisneria?


I’d just cut those leafs back to the base, though if it’s on most leafs, only trim the affected part + 1-2cm margin, these leafs will (slowly) die back as Vallisneria doesn’t like to be trimmed midleaf, but new growth will happen meanwhile 

I’d continue with the Excel (or whichever brand) until you have the new CO2 system
I’ve never had any issues with Excel and Vallisneria but I always dilute the Excel (in 100-200 ml water) before adding to the tank 

If adding “soil” at this stage with livestock in tank, I’d recommend an aquarium soil (Tropica gets my vote as it maintains its structure very well and I’ve never observed any ammonia release (Seachem Ammonia-Alert and some sort of filter or loads of plants)

I’d run the tank with the 6500 lamp instead as I find it visually more appealing (I’ve always run my Juwel Rio’s with both lamps (T5 HiLite Day) and reflectors, but find what works for you)

What’s your water change schedule?


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## spleenharvester (24 Feb 2021)

alto said:


> I’d just cut those leafs back to the base, though if it’s on most leafs, only trim the affected part + 1-2cm margin, these leafs will (slowly) die back as Vallisneria doesn’t like to be trimmed midleaf, but new growth will happen meanwhile
> 
> I’d continue with the Excel (or whichever brand) until you have the new CO2 system
> I’ve never had any issues with Excel and Vallisneria but I always dilute the Excel (in 100-200 ml water) before adding to the tank
> ...



Ah I had trimmed those two worst strands midleaf, I'll cut them back to the base, thank you.

Installed the new CO2 system today, it's a JBL ProFlora 160 yeast system - so not as good as a pressurised kit but I figure it's still better than liquid carbon - hopefully that'll help drive the BBA back a bit as it seems to be spreading from leaf to any other leaf in close proximity now. A lot of the anubias are coated with it again, not severely though.

Tropica is the soil I've bought actually  it spiked ammonia at 2ppm in an 8L bucket, but in a 180L tank I suspect that would be barely measurable if at all. I'm just quarantining it a bit to be on the safe side, I've had a lot of oto deaths lately and so don't want to stress them further.

Also actually changed to the 6500K lamp the other day. I change about 30% weekly with gravel vac, then pre-heat and dechlorinate the new water.


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## alto (24 Feb 2021)

spleenharvester said:


> I change about 30% weekly with gravel vac, then pre-heat and dechlorinate the new water.


I’d suggest changing more water and more often - not so easy with buckets, but simple with a Python style water change system (George Farmers version )
Daily water changes of 50-70% can really help sort algae issues
Also check that your filter media is “clean” of debris - which filter media are you using?
(note that with that pump upgrade there are some reports of sponge media “collapsing”)

Yeast CO2 system can be quite effective, just monitor the CO2 production and change out the bio-mix as needed, watch out for a lag time when you set up the new mix, also temperature effects on yeast growth 
One company sells a warmer that can be placed under the yeast solution (perhap Aquario Neo CO2)


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## alto (24 Feb 2021)

spleenharvester said:


> I've had a lot of oto deaths lately and so don't want to stress them further.


My suspicion is that these are linked to bacterial infection, and possible gut damage done if they have gone without food for several weeks - at least, that is quite often conjectured ... though shipments that one lfs brings in direct from Peru have very low mortality rates, Otocinclus in these shipments (1500 - 3000) are young, somewhat thin fish that are active and quickly gain weight (before being sold) )


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## dw1305 (24 Feb 2021)

Hi all, 


alto said:


> My suspicion is that these are linked to bacterial infection, and possible gut damage done if they have gone without food for several weeks


Agreed, <"they are poor little things">, and would probably get my vote for the most frequently ill treated fish. 

I think, even after any travel relayed mortality, they are generally quite tricky if you have <"a very "clean" tank">. I wouldn't ever add them to a tank that wasn't biologically mature, and even then you are reliant on <"supplementary feeding">.

cheers Darrel


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## Soilwork (26 Feb 2021)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Agreed, <"they are poor little things">, and would probably get my vote for the most frequently ill treated fish.
> 
> ...



one of the reasons I don’t use mechanical filtration is because I wan’t as much natural food as possible to be in the tank and not on a filter sponge where it cannot be accessed.  I like to keep a ‘mulmy’ tank which feeds my collection of shrimp, snails and otto’s.

regards
CJ


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## spleenharvester (26 Feb 2021)

alto said:


> I’d suggest changing more water and more often - not so easy with buckets, but simple with a Python style water change system (George Farmers version )
> Daily water changes of 50-70% can really help sort algae issues
> Also check that your filter media is “clean” of debris - which filter media are you using?
> (note that with that pump upgrade there are some reports of sponge media “collapsing”)
> ...


Ah okay, I'll give that a go - I've started replacing soil (going to do it gradually over 3 weeks to avoid sudden parameter shifts) so I'll have to do a lot of WCs in the next few weeks anyway.

Filter media is ~1kg biogravel in the lower section, medium/course sponges in the upper section. With each WC the sponges are wringed out in tank water (changed every couple months), and microfibre cloth temporarily added for 24 hours to catch most of the floating crud. I haven't noticed any signs of the sponge media collapsing with the 1000lph pump.

Yeast CO2 has started producing bubbles as of yesterday and is working pretty well, up to 12mg/L at the moment (original reading was 0mg/L).




alto said:


> My suspicion is that these are linked to bacterial infection, and possible gut damage done if they have gone without food for several weeks - at least, that is quite often conjectured ... though shipments that one lfs brings in direct from Peru have very low mortality rates, Otocinclus in these shipments (1500 - 3000) are young, somewhat thin fish that are active and quickly gain weight (before being sold) )





dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Agreed, <"they are poor little things">, and would probably get my vote for the most frequently ill treated fish.
> 
> ...





Soilwork said:


> one of the reasons I don’t use mechanical filtration is because I wan’t as much natural food as possible to be in the tank and not on a filter sponge where it cannot be accessed.  I like to keep a ‘mulmy’ tank which feeds my collection of shrimp, snails and otto’s.
> 
> regards
> CJ



What's really frustrating me about these otos is the tank has a healthy amount of biofilm and they're supplemented 2-3x weekly with blanched vegetables (mostly romaine lettuce but occasionally broccoli and courgette), so I'm convinced food isn't the issue here. They all have big plump bellies. I seem to have three different species in this tank, not 100% sure I've ID'd correctly but:

O. vestitus - All bought from a local shop four months ago, 4/6 are still alive and thriving (two died a few weeks after purchase).
O. vittatus - Bought from ebay a few months ago, 4/5 are still alive and thriving (1 DOA).
O. macrospilus - Bought from two different ebay sellers within the past month, these are really struggling. I've only got 3 still alive out of 8 now (two died in the last few days), each time they've become very lethargic and developed a hunched appearance. They always die within a day of this.

I'm not sure if it's just questionable ebay stock but it's getting so frustrating, I can't see anything wrong with the tank's parameters and they have ample food. They'd probably be my favourites if it weren't for the constant random deaths. The ones that make it past a couple months seem to be hardy.

Cheers


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## sparkyweasel (27 Feb 2021)

spleenharvester said:


> I'm not sure if it's just questionable ebay stock but it's getting so frustrating, I can't see anything wrong with the tank's parameters and they have ample food.


If they have been poorly treated during the import/wholesale/retail process they might be unable to recover. In particular, if they are not properly fed they can lose essential gut microflora which they cannot replace. Then you can feed them well, and see fat bellies, but they cannot properly digest their food and they slowly fade away.
I don't know of anything that help in that case, but I wonder if going into a tank with some healthy Otos might give them the best chance, if perhaps there is some way for the gut microbes to spread from one fish to another.


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## alto (27 Feb 2021)

Re species identification - otocinclus are misidentified on many lists and subsequently in shops






						Otocinclus macrospilus – Oto — Seriously Fish
					






					www.seriouslyfish.com
				





> This species is frequently mislabelled in stores, usually as _O. affinis_ or _O. vittatus_.  Isbrucker et.al. (2001) proposed the genus_ Macrotocinclus_ for_ O. affinis_ and this has been accepted (Eschmeyer, 2015).  The similarity between _O. macrospilus, O. vittatus_ and _O. vestitus_ has frequently confused hobbyists.  _O. macrospilus_ can be distinguished from_ O. vestitus_ by the markings on the caudal fin._ O. macrospilus_ has a dinstinctive large round black blotch at the base of the caudal fin; on_ O. vestitus_ the horizontal black band extends onto the caudal fin with no significant enlargement into a blotch._ O. vittatus_ is another near-identical species, but the upper edge of the black horizontal band along the sides of the fish is bordered by a distinct white clear band separating theblack band from the mottled pattern; on_ O. macrospilus_ the white band is less distinct in places and on _O. vestitus_ the mottled pattern adjoins the black band with no definable white band.



This all sounds pretty straightforward, except there are always some variations in appearance within a species, or the same individual displays variable appearance (depending on mood???)

Note that Otocinclus are definitely susceptible to some sort of bacterial (my suspicion re symptoms) infection which will decimate a shipment with hours/days ... and then there’s the situation where a few individuals die every day or so
I recommend selecting otocinclus in person, and spend 10-20 minutes observing tank inhabitants, then again response to netting (they should be bright active fish with an escape response)


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## spleenharvester (27 Feb 2021)

sparkyweasel said:


> If they have been poorly treated during the import/wholesale/retail process they might be unable to recover. In particular, if they are not properly fed they can lose essential gut microflora which they cannot replace. Then you can feed them well, and see fat bellies, but they cannot properly digest their food and they slowly fade away.
> I don't know of anything that help in that case, but I wonder if going into a tank with some healthy Otos might give them the best chance, if perhaps there is some way for the gut microbes to spread from one fish to another.



That's an interesting thought - I do already have 4~ quite mature otos that are fully grown (easily 2") though that have been there since the beginning. A couple of the shipments have come in a little flat looking belly wise, none looking horribly starved but I guess I have no idea how long they went without food for before they last changed hands.



alto said:


> Re species identification - otocinclus are misidentified on many lists and subsequently in shops
> 
> 
> 
> ...



These are the three species I have and how I've identified them. Based on that description it's making me wonder if #2 is actually O. vestitus and #1 is O. vittatus. The seller of #3 is convinced that they're macrospilus - although #1 also has the blotch I'm convinced it's a different species as #1 has no line connecting the blotch to the edge of the caudal fin, has an extra row of markings and is a lot larger (2"~, granted they may just be older).






I'd 100% buy them in person but lockdown has messed that up completely, my source of the #1 otos which have done quite well isn't selling, to my knowledge.


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## jaypeecee (27 Feb 2021)

Hi Everyone,

I think it may be appropriate to mention a PFK article on the topic of Otocinclus:









						Keeping Otocinclus catfish in the aquarium
					

Keeping Otocinclus catfish in the aquarium




					www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk
				




JPC


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## spleenharvester (1 Mar 2021)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> I think it may be appropriate to mention a PFK article on the topic of Otocinclus:
> 
> ...



Awesome article, thanks for that. Unfortunately I found another dead one today, one of the 6 originals this time. Died with a nice plump belly. I don't know if possibly the partial substrate change has stressed them as I've lost 3 in the past three days, but I think I am just going to give up on them to be honest. Tired of having to bury an oto every day.

Edit - just retested and my carbonate hardness has dropped to from 7 to 3dKH, and pH from 7.5 to 7.2. Could this cause these deaths?


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## john dory (1 Mar 2021)

It'll probably be ammonia/nitrite poisoning,caused by an unstable environment.


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## spleenharvester (1 Mar 2021)

john dory said:


> It'll probably be ammonia/nitrite poisoning,caused by an unstable environment.



It's not ammonia/nitrite, tested regularly. The soil was soaked in water for a week prior too so I think the ammonia leach should be minimal by now.

Also only 1/4 of the sand has been replaced with soil so far so I can't imagine it'd have that huge of an effect?

Thanks


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## Paige Poore (1 Mar 2021)

How's the algae going, any update?  I ask because I'm struggling with staghorn algae update of my own in a 220gallin that's heavily planted and have followed your thread with interest ( I have 6 otos  as well, my favorites - and hoping to add more shortly)


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## spleenharvester (1 Mar 2021)

Paige Poore said:


> How's the algae going, any update?  I ask because I'm struggling with staghorn algae update of my own in a 220gallin that's heavily planted and have followed your thread with interest ( I have 6 otos  as well, my favorites - and hoping to add more shortly)



I trimmed off the few bits of vallis with nasty staghorn a week ago (around the time I added DIY CO2, which is now up to 8mg/L) and haven't seen any since. The staghorn that was in my original post seemed to have been cured with SeaChem Fluorish Excel though it may just be a coincidence. BBA has spread quite widely again but it's only small coatings on leaves so I'm not too bothered.

Good luck with it (and I hope you have better luck with the otos than myself!)


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## john dory (1 Mar 2021)

spleenharvester said:


> It's not ammonia/nitrite, tested regularly. The soil was soaked in water for a week prior too so I think the ammonia leach should be minimal by now.
> 
> Also only 1/4 of the sand has been replaced with soil so far so I can't imagine it'd have that huge of an effect?
> 
> Thanks


I was thinking the filter may have been impeded.
Been adding high doses of glut?
Hydrogen peroxide?
Could be the filter not coping with extra ammonia released by rescapes.
Otto need very clean water.


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## dw1305 (1 Mar 2021)

Hi all, 


spleenharvester said:


> with soil so far so I can't imagine it'd have that huge of an effect?





spleenharvester said:


> Edit - just retested and my carbonate hardness has dropped to from 7 to 3dKH, and pH from 7.5 to 7.2. Could this cause these deaths?


I'm sorry for your loss, and you are never going to know for sure, it won't directly be the change in pH/dKH, but it might be an oxygen issue and the changes and death may point in the same direction.


john dory said:


> Could be the filter not coping with extra ammonia released by rescapes.
> Otto need very clean water.


If there are still elevated levels of ammonia (NH3) and or nitrite (NO2-), you would have the extra oxygen demand of nitrification and also a demand for carbonate hardness. Other fish might be less effected, because _Otocinclus_ are quite delicate fish. 

cheers Darrel


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## john dory (1 Mar 2021)

I wouldn't know anything about that..Darrell.
But you crash the filter with chems,and you're in the realms off"fish in cycle"
Ottos can't take it


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## spleenharvester (1 Mar 2021)

john dory said:


> I was thinking the filter may have been impeded.
> Been adding high doses of glut?
> Hydrogen peroxide?
> Could be the filter not coping with extra ammonia released by rescapes.
> Otto need very clean water.



I stopped dosing Flourish Excel once I started getting bubbles through the DIY CO2 reactor (so about a week ago). Have never added H2O2.

Parameters are currently as follows:

NH3: 0 ppm
NO2: 0 ppm
NO3: 20 ppm
pH: 7.2
GH: 3 dKH
CO2: 8mg/L
Temp: 25.5*C

Aside from low GH nothing really sticks out to me. I'm wondering if this is possibly a trace element/mineral issue, I know otos are quite sensitive to copper and I'm wondering if the soil is leaching it or something.



dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> 
> I'm sorry for your loss, and you are never going to know for sure, it won't directly be the change in pH/dKH, but it might be an oxygen issue and the changes and death may point in the same direction.
> ...



Thanks Darrel - in absence of anything I can detect being elevated, I might just avoid replacing the otos for another 6 months, hopefully my tank will have stabilised a lot more by then.

Cheers


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## dw1305 (1 Mar 2021)

Hi all, 


spleenharvester said:


> I might just avoid replacing the otos for another 6 months, hopefully my tank will have stabilised a lot more by then.


That would probably be the best bet.

It is really difficult to diagnose exactly what has gone wrong with fish (or plants). I tend to keep away from fish I know are genetically compromised (Rams come to mind)  and then after that I look on reputable sources (like this forum and PlanetCatfish). 

If there are lots of reports of unexpected deaths (like there are with _Otocinclus_ and Pygmy Cories) I look and see if there is anything in common in the reports and also where people have bred the same fish (or kept them long term) if there are common factors for them as well. 

In terms of _Otocinclus, _where they've done well is in established soft water set ups with high water quality, additional feeding, lots of plants and some structural leaf litter. 

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee (1 Mar 2021)

spleenharvester said:


> Died with a nice plump belly.


Hi @spleenharvester 

We tend to assume that Otocinclus with plump bellies equates to a well-fed Otocinclus. But I wonder if this could also equate to an internal infection? I really don't know the answer to this question. But I know someone to whom I could put this question. I'll try to get in touch with her.

JPC


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## spleenharvester (1 Mar 2021)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @spleenharvester
> 
> We tend to assume that Otocinclus with plump bellies equates to a well-fed Otocinclus. But I wonder if this could also equate to an internal infection? I really don't know the answer to this question. But I know someone to whom I could put this question. I'll try to get in touch with her.
> 
> JPC


Hello,

Yes I've read this a few times - it wouldn't surprise me if that were the case, we had one of our otos get really huge in a short space of time (after a couple months in the tank), we thought she was gravid but she suddenly died not long after. That would be awesome if you could,

Thanks!


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## jaypeecee (2 Mar 2021)

Hi @spleenharvester 

I'm still trying to contact this person. Will keep you updated.

But, in the meantime, it looks as if a plump belly on Otos does not necessarily correlate with good health:



			https://www.myaquariumclub.com/otocinclus-bloated-belly-1318866.html
		


JPC


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## jaypeecee (3 Mar 2021)

Hi @spleenharvester 

I did manage to contact my ichthyologist friend and I've come to the conclusion that being able to distinguish a plump from a swollen Otocinclus belly is something that comes with experience. So, I've still got some way to go!

JPC


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## spleenharvester (4 Mar 2021)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @spleenharvester
> 
> I did manage to contact my ichthyologist friend and I've come to the conclusion that being able to distinguish a plump from a swollen Otocinclus belly is something that comes with experience. So, I've still got some way to go!
> 
> JPC



Ah interesting, thank you! 

I think our recent deaths were due to water quality issues rather than parasitic/bacterial infection, despite all of the parameters I can test for being fine. We lost a total of four in a few days, at least one from each species, but have had no further losses after an 80% water change. I'm wondering if the soil was leaching minerals like copper or something else that otos are sensitive to. I think I'm just going to change the water daily instead when I add the next batch of soil.

Thanks


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## jaypeecee (4 Mar 2021)

spleenharvester said:


> I'm wondering if the soil was leaching minerals...


Hi @spleenharvester 

Perhaps. If I used aquarium soil or, indeed, any 'active' substrate, I'd test it before adding to a tank. At the very least, I'd check for ammonia/ammonium. Then, check KH, GH and pH stability. Of course, all this takes time - not just for the measurements but leaving enough time between successive measurements. Ideally, you'd be able to get this important data from the manufacturer but...

JPC


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## Wookii (5 Mar 2021)

As John says, if you are adding fresh aquatic soil to the tank it will almost certainly be leaching ammonia, even with your bucket pre-soaking, and I imagine that was most certainly the cause of your Oto losses if you replaced 25% of your substrate in this way.

Before you consider adding any more soil, I would remove all your livestock from the tank, and put them in a holding tank or tub with a heater and filter, and then wait at least a couple of weeks with 80%+ daily water changes on the main tank, before adding the fish back in.


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## spleenharvester (4 Apr 2021)

Update on this

Fully changed over from sand to Tropica soil and added yeast CO2 (JBL ProFlora 160 system, 1 bubble/2 seconds). No algae since. No more oto deaths since previous post either. I didn't remove livestock due to space constraints, but instead moved very slowly with the sand/soil replacement.


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