# Help with all-in-one recipe



## deeproots (26 Jan 2020)

Hi All - sorry for the long post - I've made up the following with 1 litre of RO water, 2g of ascorbic acid and 2g potassium sorbate:





My tap water already is already 5ppm phosphate, zero nitrate.  I'm running co2 injection at 3bps 2 hours before lights on (drop checker is green on lights on and ) and a fluval plant 3.0 on the default photoperiod in my 280L tank.  

I've suffered a bit with BBA and the plants seem to be growing slowly but not as well as when I used to use glut for my carbon source.  

I want to make sure I'm dosing correctly.  I'm dosing ~7ml per day (~50ml/7) and 25ml on water change day (just because I figured it would load up levels a bit).

I used rotala butterfly for my calculations.  What's the view on my mix and overall regime?

Thanks!

Deeproots


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## dw1305 (26 Jan 2020)

Hi all,





deeproots said:


> My tap water already is already 5ppm phosphate, zero nitrate.


I'd be surprised.

You should be able to get accurate nitrate (NO3) values from your water company, but everywhere in S. England has appreciable levels of NO3-, from agriculture and sewage treatment etc.

Your water company doesn't have to report how much much phosphate (PO4---) is in the water (there aren't any health implications to elevated PO4--- levels), but I'd be surprised if there is that much.





deeproots said:


> but not as well as when I used to use glut for my carbon source.


Your plants should definitely be growing more quickly with added CO2, so it looks like something isn't quite right.





deeproots said:


> want to make sure I'm dosing correctly. I'm dosing ~7ml per day (~50ml/7) and 25ml on water change day


We can't tell without the tank volume.





deeproots said:


> I used rotala butterfly for my calculations. What's the view on my mix and overall regime?


Should be fine.

I'd add some potassium phosphate (either K2HPO4 or KH2PO4), it isn't going to do any harm. It would just make sure that there is some PO4--- ions, if the level in the tap water isn't what you think it is. Other than that I might try a separate iron source, you, almost certainly, will have hard tap water, so you might need a <"different chelator to FeEDTA">.

cheers Darrel
.


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## deeproots (26 Jan 2020)

Thanks darrel. It's 280l I did mention but there's a lot of info in my post so you'd be forgiven for missing it. I tested using a brand new api liquid po4 test. I use half tap water which is hard and half rain water which is much like ro from my tests. Let me check on that iron source. I need to be super careful as I've got shrimp and I don't want to kill them. 

Thanks


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## dw1305 (26 Jan 2020)

Hi all,





deeproots said:


> It's 280l I did mention


Apologies, my excuse it was hiding at the edge of the screen. 

Your calculation works for 280 L. I'm a rain-water user as well. I'd be interested in what the water report says from your water supplier.

cheers Darrel


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## deeproots (26 Jan 2020)

thanks again Darrel.  i just topped up my mix with 10g of potassium phosphate which should add 0.5 ppm phosphate (I figure to up the levels a little at a time).

I'm on Anglian water (central bedfordshire), I'll see if I can find out what the analysis is.  In the past I have used 2 parts rain to 1 part tap as well but tbh I've just been a little lazy collecting and warming the rain water so hence I've been mixing warmer tap with rain on a 1:1 ratio.


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## deeproots (26 Jan 2020)

Here's the analysis - no surprises there on hardness, looks like I need to ask them for phosphates - apparently they dose it to deal with lead in pipework:

   333.5 mg/l (or parts per million) :Calcium Carbonate
    133.4 mg/l (or parts per million) :Calcium

Nitrate - average 30ppm (mg/lt)
PH 7.7


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## dw1305 (26 Jan 2020)

Hi all,





deeproots said:


> i just topped up my mix with 10g of potassium phosphate which should add 0.5 ppm phosphate


Keep us informed. It will be interesting to see what happens. It is often a <"bit of guessing game"> why some tanks have BBA and/or sub-optimal plant growth and others don't. 





deeproots said:


> looks like I need to ask them for phosphates - apparently they dose it to deal with lead in pipework:


Yes they do, EU limits for lead (Pb) in potable water are 10 microg/L. We have a a few threads about it. Technical term is "phosphate induced metal stabilization" or "PIMS" for <"control of "plumbosolvency">. 





deeproots said:


> 333.5 mg/l (or parts per million) :Calcium Carbonate


That is hard, about 19dKH, the <"workings are here">. I would definitely look at <"iron and chelators">. 





deeproots said:


> Nitrate - average 30ppm (mg/lt)


Pretty standard for most of SE and E. England. You are only likely to have less if your water comes from a deep limestone aquifer, and isn't blended with any surface water. There will be variation through the year dependent upon rainfall and agricultural nitrogen usage.

cheers Darrel
.


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## deeproots (26 Jan 2020)

Thanks. The link you sent had this

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Chempak-Sequestered-Iron-250g/dp/B00M48LGKO/

Is that the product you use in the aquarium? Is it invert safe? How do I measure how much to use? Thanks for your help so far Darrell


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## Jayefc1 (26 Jan 2020)

I have to say that I'm no expert but 7ml dont sound like enough to me my 140ltr is dosed at 15ml a day I use this mix for  500ml bottle and have no issues
10g  Potassium Nitrate
2.3g  Monopotassium Phosphate
4.0g  Potassium Sulphate
8.0g  Magnesium Sulphate Heptahydrate (Epsom Salts)
0.5g  E300 Ascorbic Acid
0.2g  E202 Potassium Sorbate
6g  EDTA Chelated Trace Elements Mix (TNC Trace, CSM+B)
500ml boiled tap water
So yours is just double 
Have you tried upping your dose
Cheers
J


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## dw1305 (27 Jan 2020)

Hi all,





deeproots said:


> Is that the product you use in the aquarium? Is it invert safe? How do I measure how much to use?


No, but <"other members have"> without any problem, I use soft water, so I can just use FeEDTA. there shouldn't be any toxicity issues with any of the chelated products. 

To work out how much you need you just need to add to the tank (to give ~ 0.5ppm Fe) you just to know the <"percentage of iron"> in the compound you add.  

cheers Darrel


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## deeproots (27 Jan 2020)

thanks - I've ordered the sequestered Iron - just need to work out the calcs to add to my mix.

Also worth stating I used rotala butterfly low light weekly/ei as the basis for my calcs as didnt want to take too much risk on adding too many fertz.  

As per jayefc1's post (thanks) - am I adding too little per day?  My mix is 1000ml and his is 500ml and my ratios are different anyway.  i've upped the dose to an unscientific 10ml per day for now as I want to adjust slowly so I can measure the effects.


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## Jayefc1 (27 Jan 2020)

Upping it isnt going to hurt as long as your doing your weekly water change
What colour does your mix come out like mine is green and smells just like tnc complete 

J


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## deeproots (27 Jan 2020)

@Jayefc1 mine is light brown - probably because we use a different trace mix - I use the UK plant food one.


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## Jayefc1 (27 Jan 2020)

Me too mate the one in a black foil packet 

J


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## deeproots (27 Jan 2020)

@dw1305 i followed the link you sent:

"So our fertiliser has 20,000 ppm of Fe. If we take 1g of "Chempak sequestered iron" and add it to 1 litre of water, we've divided 20,000/100, so we have 20 ppm Fe.

* We want 0.5 ppm, which is equivalent to 1g in 40 litres (20/0.5 = 40).*

You have a 450 litre tank, so we can multiply by 10 to give us how we would need in 400 litres of water: 1g x 10 = 10g and then add add on the amount we would need for the extra 50 litres, = 1.25g (40 x 1.25)

Total amount of "*Chempak sequestered iron*" to give ~0.5 ppm* = 11.25g in 450 litres*."

Given mine is 280 and I'm using the same fertz - I need a total of 7g (280l / 40 litres=7g) to give me 0.5 ppm.  How do I work that out for my 1 litre all in one mix which adds 50 ml as an overall dose?

I'm missing some variables in my calculation here I think!


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## dw1305 (27 Jan 2020)

Hi all,





Jayefc1 said:


> What colour does your mix come out like mine is green





deeproots said:


> @Jayefc1 mine is light brown - probably because we use a different trace mix





Jayefc1 said:


> Me too mate the one in a black foil packet


It sounds like the iron is in different forms, if it is ferrous iron (Fe++) the solution will be green, if it is ferric iron (Fe+++) the solution will be rust coloured.  It could be an oxygen, and/or a pH, effect (green in low oxygen/low pH situations). 





deeproots said:


> So our fertiliser has 20,000 ppm of Fe. If we take 1g of "Chempak sequestered iron" and add it to 1 litre of water, we've divided 20,000/1000, so we have 20 ppm Fe."


Thanks, I couldn't find that exact post earlier, but it tells us what we need to know.

Chempak Sequestered Iron = 2% Fe. 





deeproots said:


> Given mine is 280 and I'm using the same fertz - I need a total of 7g (280l / 40 litres=7g) to give me 0.5 ppm.


 That would give you 0.5ppm. 





deeproots said:


> How do I work that out for my 1 litre all in one mix which adds 50 ml as an overall dose?


You would need each 50 mL dose to contain 7g of Fe.

In a litre there are 20 x 50mL doses, which makes the total amount required 20 x 7g = 140g "Chempak Sequestered Iron".

You may find you can't get that much into solution. I would be tempted not to try, and to just dose the iron separately.

cheers Darrel


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## deeproots (27 Jan 2020)

Wow that's a huge amount of fe to add
 In other words I would need to add 140g of that to a 1l solution which tbh frightens me a bit for my inverts (maybe irrational I know) to dose 1g per day. I might go much lower to start with a build it up slowly? Thanks for the advice BTW I'm trying to get this right


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## dw1305 (27 Jan 2020)

Hi all, 





deeproots said:


> Wow that's a huge amount of fe to add


Yes, it is a large amount, mainly because you only have 2% Fe. 





deeproots said:


> I might go much lower to start with a build it up slowly?


That is it really, you only need a little bit of iron, the issues tend to be where you don't have any plant available iron.

I'd try a 1/4 of that for starters (0.125 ppm), if you see an improvement that is enough. I'm not interested in optimal plant growth, so I use <"plant health and colour as an indication of when to add nutrients">, rather than adding them on a regular basis.

You don't get an instant greening with iron deficiency, because iron isn't mobile within the plant, so it is <"only new leaf tissue that is green">. As you can see below in @Zeus.'s very informative photo.





Have a look at <"(Early) sign of deficiency"> and the <"hybrid duckweed index">.

cheers Darrel


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## deeproots (27 Jan 2020)

Darrell thanks so much I'm gonna go for the lower dose to start  and take it easy. Will post some pics in a couple of weeks if all works out


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## deeproots (16 Feb 2020)

Ok - update 2 weeks later.  I still have issues - sorry for the long reply.  Some of my plants aren't growing particularly well. My cabomba is growing like crazy but others are suffering.  My red plants at the back are growing slowly, lots of aerial roots and not looking great, my dwarf hairgrass is suffering (along with other bottom level plants), my floating floating water lettuce is growing slowly and my java fern isnt looking great and covered in bba/staghorn (which I'm squirting with h202 but I've had enough it grows back in days).  I dont want to go back to using liquid carbon to control bba as i've got vallis. 

I've doubled my dose to 14.5ml per day, 10 hours light under my fluval plant 3.0, co2 4bps and drop checker green all day from 1 hr before lights on to lights off. Updated recipe below as I've increased some amounts and added the sequestered iron:


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## Jayefc1 (5 Mar 2020)

Hellp.mate I think.your light is on for too long and your ferts dont seem.right to me as I said defore
Just done a quick rotola butterfly calculation and its says just for kno3


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## Jayefc1 (5 Mar 2020)

Seems to me your trying to force grow the plants by adding high light and co2 but not giving them the food they need to produce the energy to grow hence the alge


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## deeproots (30 Mar 2020)

hi sorry for the late reply.  I solved the bba issue with h2o2 spot and whole tank dosing followed by a week of flourish excel at standard dose which as expected killed my vallis as well. 

 I also solved the recipe by weighing out the individual doses which came with my ei kit for both 500ml mixes,  dumping them in the same 1 litre container and adding sequestered iron to the mix .  Reduced my photoperiod back.  Very happy with the growth everything is growing like crazy but the red plants are not getting fully red until close to the surface. I don't think the fluval can give them enough par in my 20 inch deep tank but hey it looks great now and the fish are happy. 

Will post full recipe I'm using when I get to my laptop and hopefully some pics in a few days


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## dw1305 (31 Mar 2020)

Hi all, 





deeproots said:


> Very happy with the growth everything is growing like crazy


I'm pleased it's sorted.

cheers Darrel


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## deeproots (2 Apr 2020)

OK recipe as promised - havent worked out the ppm but the raw numbers for 1 litre of liquid dosed at 30ml per day into my 280L are:


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## deeproots (2 Apr 2020)

OK recipe as promised - havent worked out the ppm but the raw numbers for 1 litre of liquid dosed at 30ml per day into my 280L are:


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