# CO2 flow



## paleo (27 Jan 2015)

Hi,
My tank measures 150 x 60 x 45 cm, and contains about 350 litres.  It is lit by 3 85w T5s, with reflectors.  The filter is an Eheim 2076, which is rated at 1650 litres/hour.  The spray bar is at one of the short ends of the tank, about 15 cm below the waterline, with the holes pointing upwards at about 45 degrees.  At the other short end there is the filter intake, as well as a small power head, about 10 cm below the waterline.  This results in a circular flow of the surface water, and some agitation.  There is a pressurised CO2 system, controlled by a pH probe.  The CO2 goes into a Dennerle Cyclo, the outlet of which is next to the intake of the filter.  An Eheim aquaball is connected to the Cyclo.  At present, there are few plants or fish.  My aim is to keep about 6 discus, an appropriate amount of tetras, and to have lush plant growth of undemanding plants.

The flow around the tank is not sufficient, and the dissolved CO2 is on the low side.

In order to correct this, I am considering having a long spray bar along the back of the tank, connected to the Eheim 2076.  The return flow would pass through an Aquamedic CO2 1000 reactor.

I used to run an Eheim wet/dry filter, and am considering running that again.  I understand they produce well-oxygenated water, and don’t cause much out-gassing of CO2. 

I am somewhat confused as to how to set this up for maximum effect.  I don’t want to create very strong flow, as discus are said not to like that.  I may well need to have some surface agitation, though this may be less important if the wet/dry filter oxygenates the water. 

Should the long spray bar go at the top or the bottom of the tank?
Is this just a matter of joining a few short spray bars with bits of hose?
How should I return the water from the wet/dry to the tank?

Any suggestions?


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## ceg4048 (27 Jan 2015)

http://ukaps.org/forum/threads/water-flow-in-the-planted-aquarium.1167/

Cheers,


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## paleo (28 Jan 2015)

Thanks, that is a very informative thread.

In order to avoid "incoherent and disruptive flow", all outlets/pumps should point in the same direction.  I seem to remember the Eheim wet/dry is quite particular about lenghts of pipe runs, in that both inlet and outlet should be the same length.  If I have a full length spray bar along the back of the tank, connected to the 2076, how do you suggest I return the water from the wet/dry to the tank, avoiding bad flow?  A second spay bar, mounted underneath the first, would mean the return would be much longer than the input.


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## ceg4048 (29 Jan 2015)

Ignore all that. Every filter has a problem when the outflow is attached to a long length of spraybar or when the return/inlet hoses are long. That's just life with hoses. You can shorten the spraybar and add powerhead(s) or add a second filter with a bar attached to it so that each filter only has to be attached to a half length.

Cheers,


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## paleo (29 Jan 2015)

Hi,

Indeed, life with hoses is not always simple.

My most ambitious idea, following on from your advice, would be to have 2 Eheim 2076, two shortish spraybars at the back of the tank, and two Aquamedic CO2 reactors.

Would this be overkill for a discus tank?


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## ceg4048 (29 Jan 2015)

No mate, not at all. As I mentioned, it's a much more elegant (if expensive) to separate the bars so that each section has it's own dedicated bar. This keeps the lengths and associated headaches manageable. You don't necessarily need the Eheims - the cheaper Fluvals or Tetratec equivalents are just as useful. Let your budget be your guide.

As you noted, the problem with this solution is that you now have to divide the gas and use two in-line devices or port the gas into the inlet of each filter intake tube. Our sponsor CO2Art sells CO2 splitters, so that part is easy but needing 2 reactors is a little bit of a bummer. Check their website for in-line devices. The AM1000 is much too bulky and has those unnecessary bioballs which just adds drag, and, unless you get the version with 17mm inlet/outlet spuds you will undo all that flow goodness you've paid through the nose for.

Cheers,


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## naughtymoose (29 Jan 2015)

Clive,



ceg4048 said:


> As you noted, the problem with this solution is that you now have to divide the gas and use two in-line devices or port the gas into the inlet of each filter intake tube.



I'm planning on two Fluval 306's with spraybars along the back of my 240L, and utilizing the two pipes through the base of the tank to connect to the inlet pipe of each filter.

I was going to use a bazooka diffuser in the corner where the inlets are so that the CO2 gets drawn through the filter and then out through the spraybars.

Is this not a good idea? Will I be much better off using two inline devices?


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## ceg4048 (29 Jan 2015)

naughtymoose said:


> I'm planning on two Fluval 306's with spraybars along the back of my 240L, and utilizing the two pipes through the base of the tank to connect to the inlet pipe of each filter.


Hi moose,
             Wow, I love the idea of bottom drilled tanks. Such a clean solution. Did you drill the tank yourself? I don't have large enough cojones to do it myself and it's super expensive over here.

I just think that 240 kilograms of water is serious business mate. Regular In tank devices on that size are typically puny, and if they are man enough for the job then they are really obnoxious looking. I reckon that for any tank over 50 USG requires an in-line device. It just makes life easier. Of course you can always pump the gas directly into the filters. The filter is the best diffuser ever built. The only problem is that the noise and burping can become annoying, especially if the filter pump lacks muscle, but I don't care. Just get a more muscular filter. I can drop the pH of my water by 1.5 units in less than 20 minutes (which can annihilate the fish very quickly if you are not careful).

Anyway, for my money, I would prefer a couple of external Up Atomizers.

Check out the simplicity of this device by CalAqua: Upside? Very efficient, very elegant. Downside? Breakable glass, cleaning is a chore...and frighteningly overpriced.



 

Cheers,


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## naughtymoose (29 Jan 2015)

Clive, it's a Fluval Roma 240L, it comes ready drilled with connecting pipes, inlet strainer and an outlet.

I'll have to put the UP in-lines on my list. This is turning out to be a difficult hobby just to get started in as I'm not working due to illness and therefore have very little disposable income.

I suppose I'll need one on each filter/spray bar set up too won't I? 

Oh well, Rome wasn't built in a day, as they say...


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## ceg4048 (29 Jan 2015)

naughtymoose said:


> I suppose I'll need one on each filter/spray bar set up too won't I?


Errr...yeah mate. Sorry to hear that you're not well. Ordinarily, If disposable income is a problem then I would suggest a less expensive option of porting directly into the filters with a couple cheap ceramic disks placed the under or very near each of the inlet grills. But bubbles go up and in your case the inlet sucks down, right? So this greatly complicates matters. I guess there's no choice but to use the reactors. Check the used market/fleabay then.

Whatever you do, don't spend money on uprading lights or brand name filter media. Just use foam. Save money on substrate by using cheap bonsai gravel. Definitely do not waste money on silly test kits - that will save a few quid.

Cheers,


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## naughtymoose (29 Jan 2015)

Cheers Clive.

As usual, you make good suggestions! Reactors on the list then. I'm planning on visiting Tescos or maybe PAH for some non-scented cat litter to go over the B&Q pond compost. No Gucci stuff for me!

Sorry for hijacking your thread a bit there Paleo.

PS, I've already had the test kit for quite a while. Don't banish me back to the Matrix! It's helped me learn a little about chemistry, if nothing else...


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## ceg4048 (29 Jan 2015)

moose,
            Check these guys out: http://www.kaizenbonsai.com/shop/index.php?cPath=84_87 
look at items 1, 3 , 30, 32, 33. Cat litter is annoying because of the cloudiness and if you're unlucky turns to mush. These are molar clay or basalt. A little heavier and not nearly as much dust, but you do have to wash.

OK, now that you've learned chemistry, throw them away.

Cheers,


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## naughtymoose (30 Jan 2015)

Will do.

(I never liked chemistry anyway )


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## paleo (30 Jan 2015)

This would generate a fair bit of flow: http://www.charterhouse-aquatics.co.uk/maxspect-gyre-xf130-generator-35w-p-16466.html.  Too much for a 5 foot discus tank?  Does anyone know what the minimum flow rate is for the 35 wat version?


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## X3NiTH (30 Jan 2015)

Oh my, those Gyres are expensive, Twinstar expensive (at least that's supposed to be using platinum coated titanium mesh which isn't cheap). No doubt it will get cloned eventually.


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## Zak Rafik (31 Jan 2015)

paleo said:


> I am somewhat confused as to how to set this up for maximum effect. I don’t want to create very strong flow, as discus are said not to like that. I may well need to have some surface agitation, though this may be less important if the wet/dry filter oxygenates the water.
> Should the long spray bar go at the top or the bottom of the tank?
> Is this just a matter of joining a few short spray bars with bits of hose?
> How should I return the water from the wet/dry to the tank?


Paleo, thanks for raising a fantastic question. 




ceg4048 said:


> cleaning is a chore..


Hi Clive,
Just for my knowledge, how do you clean the inline diffuser device by CalAqua? It seems the ceramic disc is inside. Do you soak it in bleach?



ceg4048 said:


> Every filter has a problem when the outflow is attached to a long length of spraybar or when the return/inlet hoses are long.


Clive, what is your opinion on having a spray bar length wise for a 4 feet /120cm tank / 285 litres ( actual volume). 
The dimension of tank is length: 120cm X depth: 46cm X height: 50cm ( actual after taking away 6cm for substrate ) 
My filter is an Eheim 2080 (1200XL)? Will it be able to provide a flow from a spray bar about 115cm long?

Cheers


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## ceg4048 (31 Jan 2015)

Zak Rafik said:


> Just for my knowledge, how do you clean the inline diffuser device by CalAqua? It seems the ceramic disc is inside. Do you soak it in bleach?


Yeah, that's part of the downside of this particular unit. I douse it completely in full strength bleach and it's sparkling clean in 5.318 minutes. Then rinse, and soak for a few minutes in dechlorinator just to make sure. I blow through the inlet spud to dislodge any trapped bleach. After a few months, I got tired of that exercise and just wrapped a small towel around it to block the light. That kept it free of algae and I was able to reduce the cleaning frequency.

4 ft of spraybar is a challenge because the pressure profile along that length causes unevenness of outlet flow. Again, don't commit to expensive bar material until you experiment with cheap PVC first. You might also need to drill the holes at odd angles to keep the exit streams straight. I prefer to use two filters each attached to a shorter length of bar.

It's really difficult to predict mate, you just have to try it. When I used the two 2180s, each was attached to spraybars of about 80cm, and that was using the Fluval spraybars. Just don't pack the filter with all of that media and you might be able to get away with it without too much fuss.

Cheers,


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## NC10 (31 Jan 2015)

ceg4048 said:


> I don't have large enough cojones to do it myself and it's super expensive over here.



The thought of drilling glass is far worse than actually doing it.

Over here you're looking at £10-£20 for a diamond drill bit, don't know about were you are. Just take your time, not too much pressure or speed and get some one to spray water constantly with a mister, or use a hosepipe etc. One pointer would be to start at a slight angle using your thumb to steady it and then slowly bringing the drill up vertically once you have a slight groove, otherwise you might find yourself chasing the drill bit around the glass.

Just have a practice on an old tank or piece of glass, you'll wonder what all the worrying was about


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## ceg4048 (31 Jan 2015)

OK, fair enough. Great tips. I'll practice that with some glass. I'll need lots of practice if I want to do large holes for 50mm tubing. I'll start small and see how it goes...

Cheers,


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## naughtymoose (2 Feb 2015)

An old trick is to use a bit of masking tape. Stick it on the tile or glass and drill SLOWLY as NC10 says.

Once the pilot hole has been drilled, use a circular hole tile saw.

Don't forget to turn off HAMMER ACTION


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