# Help Required: Beginner Plant Issues



## Stitch (29 Oct 2012)

Hi,

Can some of you more experienced members please take a look at my photos and try to steer me in the right direction into getting my tank on the right path?

It's my first tank and I am kind of learning as i'm going along.

Tank is around 2 to 3 months old: Juwel Rio 400 (125 gallons).
CO2 is pressurised with large Ceramic diffuser drop checker looks good. I will be moving to a AM1000 Reactor in the next few weeks.
External Eheim filter with 3,400 lph pump to full length 1.3m spray bar
EI dosing: 1tsp KNo3, 1tsp KH2PO4, 3tsp MgSO4 (3 times week). 1/2 tsp trace (2 times week)
50% water change each week
Lighting: 2 x T5 54watt (6 hours) back bulbs for 3 hours then front bulbs for 3 hours
Temp naturally between 25 and 27. No heater but keep AC on to bring back to 25
Room has a lot of natural light but no direct sunlight

Old growth appears to be browning. I trimmed and new growth is a nice lighter green.






Some of the lower leaves are turning brown or have brown spots





I seem to get a weekly build up of algae on the glass.





Newer leaves on this plant seem ok but lower leaves are slowly getting brown edges. Also getting green spots on the rocks.





Stryogne repens with same issue. Browning lower leaves and lighter top leaves





This plant (right in the middle) is getting brown tentacles, i'm guessing these are not roots





Here is a full tank shot. Flow appears to be good in the tank and plants are swaying





Thanks for looking. Welcome any feedback.

Not really sure where to go from here. Will the plants come back to health? Will the brown leaves start to cause problems in the tank? I guess I could pull out the plants, trim them up and have another go at replanting the good parts.

Let me know if you need more information.


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## krazypara3165 (29 Oct 2012)

beautiful tank! My knowledge on plants is horrific so this is just my best guess! the plant with the tentacles im nearly 100% sure they are roots......... i dont know what type of plant it is but thats how a lot of plants repopulate. as far as the others go im not experienced enough but im sure someone will come along


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## GHNelson (29 Oct 2012)

Hi Stitch
The plants you purchased have most probably been grown emersed.
So its going to take them time to transform to the submerged plant.
I would wait till you have some decent new growth then trim the tops off and discard the lower part of the plant, re-plant the tops.
Saying that you may have a Co2 distribution issue....what colour is the drop checker and where is it positioned.
The Java Fern is doing well it produces frond like strands when its happy  
It will eventually grow dark spots on its leaves and these will produce baby plantlets  
hoggie


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## Alastair (29 Oct 2012)

Looks like co2 distribution as a lot of the affected leaves seem to be lower down. Using one glass diffuser in a tank that big would prove pretty difficult. I've had the jewel vision 450 and the glass diffusers didnt do much. 
You may see a big difference with the am1000 or an up inline atomiser as an alternative. The am1000 will drop flow massively 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GHNelson (29 Oct 2012)

Alastair said:
			
		

> Looks like co2 distribution as a lot of the affected leaves seem to be lower down. Using one glass diffuser in a tank that big would prove pretty difficult. I've had the jewel vision 450 and the glass diffusers didnt do much.
> You may see a big difference with the am1000 or an up inline atomiser as an alternative. The am1000 will drop flow massively


As Alastair stated
If your regulator can be adjusted to 1.7bar and above I would purchase a UP inline atomiser and rig up to your outlet tube.
I have no knowledge on Co2 reactors so can't comment on them.
hoggie


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## Stitch (30 Oct 2012)

krazypara3165 said:
			
		

> beautiful tank! My knowledge on plants is horrific so this is just my best guess! the plant with the tentacles im nearly 100% sure they are roots......... i dont know what type of plant it is but thats how a lot of plants repopulate. as far as the others go im not experienced enough but im sure someone will come along


Thanks. I believe this plant is Microsorum pteropus 'Windeløv'. I can't seem to find anything about tentacles. Could this be a type of algae?



			
				hogan53 said:
			
		

> Hi Stitch
> The plants you purchased have most probably been grown emersed.
> So its going to take them time to transform to the submerged plant.
> I would wait till you have some decent new growth then trim the tops off and discard the lower part of the plant, re-plant the tops.


Hi, the plants were purchased from Tropica. I'm not sure if they grow emersed or not. I think once the new growth gets to a reasonable size I may try uprooting, trimming and replanting.



			
				hogan53 said:
			
		

> Saying that you may have a Co2 distribution issue....what colour is the drop checker and where is it positioned.


I have 2 drop checkers, 1 at each end. They are both blue each morning. CO2 comes on 2 hours before lights on. To be honest they are probably dark green at lights on and settle into a nice light green maybe after 1 hour more. I'm not always home during the full light cycle so hesitant to increase CO2 without being able to monitor the fish.



			
				hogan53 said:
			
		

> The Java Fern is doing well it produces frond like strands when its happy
> It will eventually grow dark spots on its leaves and these will produce baby plantlets
> hoggie


Thanks   



			
				Alastair said:
			
		

> Looks like co2 distribution as a lot of the affected leaves seem to be lower down. Using one glass diffuser in a tank that big would prove pretty difficult. I've had the jewel vision 450 and the glass diffusers didnt do much.


So you do not think the brown on the leaves is algae? I guess it could be CO2 but I find this surprising as the CO2 is actually at it's best at the bottom. The bubbles rise from the diffuser to the spray bar which fires them across the tank and straight down to the bottom and finally into the plants. It looks like plenty of CO2 is reaching these brown leaves.
Should I be worried about the algae on the glass? Or just keep wiping/scraping this off?



			
				Alastair said:
			
		

> You may see a big difference with the am1000 or an up inline atomiser as an alternative. The am1000 will drop flow massively


How massive are we talking? Are Up Atomisers ok for 450 litre tanks?
My current regulator is from Aqua Medic with a fixed pressure of 1 bar. Would this cause problems?


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## foxfish (30 Oct 2012)

I think you would be better off using a DIY reactor than the Aqua Medic.


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## Alastair (30 Oct 2012)

Up atomisers are fine for that size tank I ran just one on my 450 litre I also went down the DIY reactor root too with minimal flow loss ( even on an fx5) and didnt have any co2 bubbles in the tank. 
The am1000 drops flow I couldn't give a figure to be precise regarding how much flow was lost but it was noticeable. 
If you did opt for that remove the black bio balls from inside and this will allow better flow through. The bio balls inside really aren't needed 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ceg4048 (30 Oct 2012)

Hi,
   I agree with the other posters that this is a CO2 and possibly flow issue all the way. You dropchecker should be lime green to slightly yellow at least, when the lights go ON. This is the most critical time for CO2. It actually would be better for you if the the color patter you describe was reversed. Dark green by the end of the day and light green in the beginning of the day works better that the current pattern.

As mentioned, if your AM1000 has input/output spuds that are smaller than your filter outlet then you are losing flow. You can take the bio-balls out and you will improve flow and actually improve the performance of the AM1000. All those balls create resistance to flow. They also collect dirt, further reducing flow.

Cheers,


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## Ziabis (31 Oct 2012)

My question pertains to hours of light.

Why is it that the light should only be on for a specific amount of time.

I have been told 8 to 12 hours a day, but in the real world, the sun blooms for
approx. 12 - 18 hours a day in some parts?

So why in the aquarium it should only be 8-12 hours?

My aquarium store told me only 8 hours....
I am using (1) T8 full spectrum daylight bulb in a 30G.  So
what is the REAL Answer?


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (31 Oct 2012)

Plants in the amazon for example, will only receive dappled light for those hours, not bright direct light from a bulb only 2 foot away. It's also got to do with depths of water and co2 availability too.

Look at your stems, when they've had enough for the day, the heads on rotala etc. close back up.

Darrel and Clive will sort this in more detail I imagine.


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## REDSTEVEO (31 Oct 2012)

Yellow and withering leaves in some areas, brown spots on rocks, I agree with Clive, that it is a CO2 and flow issue. Also you might need to adjust the NPK routine. I dose at least that amount of dry ferts and I have only got 190 litres in my tank. Although having said that I still mix mine into a solution rather than chucking it by the teaspoon.

My CO2 is via a glass diffuser in the tank situated directly below the inlet pipe for the filter so most of it is sucked up and sprayed around the tank. My regulator is controlled by a PH sensor which some people don't like but it works for me. About 100 bubbles per minute through the drop checker, like Clive says light green to yellow when lights come on dark green at the end of the day.

Other than that your tank does look really nice. Those long brown tentacles are definitely roots by the way.

Cheers

Steve


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## Ziabis (31 Oct 2012)

I am using liquid fertilizer twice a week along with a liquid CO2.

As a bigginner I have got so many conflicting recomendations. For instance to use co2 and not to use it or to use a DIY co2 or not...

So I figured I would just try liquid co2 for now. How often to add co2 and fertilizer?


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## Stitch (31 Oct 2012)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Hi, I agree with the other posters that this is a CO2 and possibly flow issue all the way. You dropchecker should be lime green to slightly yellow at least, when the lights go ON. This is the most critical time for CO2. It actually would be better for you if the the color patter you describe was reversed. Dark green by the end of the day and light green in the beginning of the day works better that the current pattern.


Thanks for the replies. I do plan on making some changes to the CO2 in the next couple of weeks, leaning towards the AM1000 minus the bio balls at the moment. Once that is improved, using the drop checkers, i'll wait and see if flow is still an issue.



			
				REDSTEVEO said:
			
		

> Yellow and withering leaves in some areas, brown spots on rocks, I agree with Clive, that it is a CO2 and flow issue. Also you might need to adjust the NPK routine. I dose at least that amount of dry ferts and I have only got 190 litres in my tank. Although having said that I still mix mine into a solution rather than chucking it by the teaspoon.


Hesitant to increase the Ferts at the moment but will bear in mind. Cheers.



			
				REDSTEVEO said:
			
		

> Other than that your tank does look really nice. Those long brown tentacles are definitely roots by the way.


Thanks, and thanks for the confirmation on the tentacles.



			
				Ziabis said:
			
		

> I am using liquid fertilizer twice a week along with a liquid CO2.
> As a bigginner I have got so many conflicting recomendations. For instance to use co2 and not to use it or to use a DIY co2 or not...
> So I figured I would just try liquid co2 for now. How often to add co2 and fertilizer?


Ziabis, easy on the thread jack mate. Just kidding   I see from your Sig that you have a 30G. You may want to be careful using advice in this thread as it's aimed at a much larger tank.
I will say that from spending a lot of time reading this forum it is clear that CO2, water flow and fertilisers are the key for success. Light comes a dead last, should be used sparingly, and only increased once a balance has been established. From what I can tell liquid CO2 and ferts are ok on smaller tanks but dry ferts and pressurised CO2 are best for larger tanks.


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## cogo (6 Nov 2012)

Hi Stitch and Others,

1. Stitch, can you please raport if these advises were good for you? It is very important to hear feedback, bacause there are other users that read all this posts and have similar problems. However, there are many forum treads that are without any conclusions, just with planty of advices. It's hard to get knowledge from that.

2. I've got exactly similar problem, exept my tank is 30l. I even could reupload your images. 
Here is my aquarium setup:
Age: 3 months
30x30x35 Nano Aquarium - 30l
Lamp: 26W (Solar Duo Boy http://www.aquatic-nature.be/eng_duoboy.html ) I tern it on for 8 hours.
Filtration: Tetra EX 400 with Ball Pipe
Temperature: 24C
CO2: Pressured into DIY TermoReactor made from Inline Aquafilter with Heater. I add 3 bouble per second od C02 3 hours before the light turns on. (C02 KH4 test is almost yellow and second CO2 KH6 test is lime green). If I measure C02 in table I get 53-60ppm of CO2: 
Soil: Aquatic Nature Pro Soil
Roks: 8kg 

Flora: 
Riccia Fluitans
Rotala indica
hemianthus micranthemoides
hemianthus callitrichoides cuba
Cladophora aegagropila
Fauna:
10x Shrimp White Pearl

Fertilizers:
Dry Salts
EasyLife ProFito, Carbo, and Ferro
Dosing Method: Full classic EI 7x a week.

Problems:
1. Old leaves of Hemiantus Cuba (some plants has 3 months and others 2 weeks) are getting brown. However, new leaves are growing well.


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## Stitch (7 Nov 2012)

Hi,

Yes, I am very grateful for the feedback and have no doubts now that my issues are CO2 & flow related.

I'm going to try and switch over from a large Ceramic diffuser to a large Atomizer. Just waiting for the bits and bobs to arrive in the next week or so.

To be honest, from the distance I view the tank I'm really happy with how things are right now. I'm just trying to get it a bit more polished and nicer to look at up close. This forum has helped me pretty much from the start a few months ago.

Sorry but I would have no idea on your tank. I've been advised to make sure the drop checker is light green to yellow right at lights on. Even move it around the tank to ensure equal distribution. Also the water flow is very important. Make sure it's flowing in 1 direction all the way around the tank (swirling) rather than flowing in 1 area of the tank. Can you see plenty of movement at the floor?


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## Stitch (4 Jan 2013)

Guys,

Seems the harder I try the worse things get. I'd really welcome any input as its getting a bit demoralising to be honest.

About 7 or 8 weeks ago I moved from a ceramic diffuser to an inline large UP Atomizer. Regulator was increased to 36 psi as recommended and I quickly got it tuned in to give lime green drop check at lights on, then slowly moves towards yellow before lights off. This has been consistent since install.

From what I can tell flow appears to be good and a consistent fog of tiny bubbles is moving fully around the tank from the full length spray bar. All plants appear to be moving or swaying in the flow.

I slowly removed 1/2 filter material and ALL fine filter pads to try and stop flow being restricted. Pump is 3,400 litres and tank is 450 litres so I know it's not quite at the 10x rule.

I'm dosing the following, and never missed a dose:
1tsp KNO3 (3 times a week)
1tsp KH2PO4 (3 times a week)
3tsp MgSO4 (3 times a week)
1/2 tsp Trace (2 times a week)
50% weekly water change

Leaves continue to turn brown, decay, fall etc. leaving bare stems. Stryogne repens all melted away and appeared to die, so were removed. I've also had to remove other plants.

Here you can see brown dots appearing on leaves and also decaying parts:





Java Fern turning brown:





Here you can see all lower leaves have decayed and gone leaving bare stems:





I've tried re-planting the new green tops but these quickly develop the same brown spots. I guess they'll soon be on their way out:





In contrast, this is my nano Betta tank. It's been running about 3 or 4 months and I have never added 1 drop of fertiliser in this. Plants appear to be growing slowly and staying green:





Here is a video to try and show the circular flow in the tank. Quality not great though and doesn't do it justice:


Going forward, i've ordered 2 small hydor koralia nano 900 pumps and will give them a go (installed at each end pointing towards the glass). Probably install in about 4 weeks time.

Might sound stupid but is there a chance the problem could be with my dry ferts? I purchased from a local flower shop and they were given in clear bags with marker labels. Is there anyway to test they are what they say they are?

Thanks for reading guys.


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## Stitch (4 Jan 2013)

Forgot to mention:

Lights are:
3 hours back 2 bulbs
3 hours front 2 bulbs

The only algae I can see is the green spots on the glass which needs manually removing every 2 to 3 weeks (not too bad).


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## tim (4 Jan 2013)

only thing i can say is maybe try to have the dc more yellow at the start not the end of the photo period i start mine 5 hours before lights on off 2 hours before lights off so it can ramp up steadily and stays the same colour throughout lights on


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## ceg4048 (4 Jan 2013)

Agreed. All the symptoms you listed are strictly due to poor CO2. If flow/distribution is confirmed to be adequate then there needs to be an injection rate increase or better timing of the gas being turned on relative to the light. You can also supplement the CO2 with daily liquid carbon. Our sponsor AE sell their version of Excel for less £.

Cheers,


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## Iain Sutherland (4 Jan 2013)

Once you get the koralias in and up the co2 level it should make a big difference, id also suggest that as you are having issues getting co2 into the tank to reduce the surface movement which will off gas a lot, it looks quite turbulent in the video.
Dont get demoralised, all of us had the same issues when starting out, the pieces will begin to fit together sooner or later and it will all be worthwhile.


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## dw1305 (5 Jan 2013)

Hi all,
I don't use CO2 and I don't know how you are getting on with this, but I might up the KNO3 addition a bit as the plants look a little bit nitrogen deficient.

The strange brown thing on the Java Fern is a new plantlet, just let it get bigger then attach it some where else. You should be able to see the new fronds have got bigger now.

cheers Darrel


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## Stitch (5 Jan 2013)

Thanks for reading and for the quick replies.



tim said:


> only thing i can say is maybe try to have the dc more yellow at the start not the end of the photo period i start mine 5 hours before lights on off 2 hours before lights off so it can ramp up steadily and stays the same colour throughout lights on


Sure, I can work on playing with this and try to increase the CO2 prior to lights on.




ceg4048 said:


> Agreed. All the symptoms you listed are strictly due to poor CO2. If flow/distribution is confirmed to be adequate then there needs to be an injection rate increase or better timing of the gas being turned on relative to the light. You can also supplement the CO2 with daily liquid carbon. Our sponsor AE sell their version of Excel for less £.


Thanks for confirming Clive. I'm in Dubai, where liquid carbon isn't really available, so i'll work on what Tim said to increase CO2 while not losing fish.




easerthegeezer said:


> Once you get the koralias in and up the co2 level it should make a big difference, id also suggest that as you are having issues getting co2 into the tank to reduce the surface movement which will off gas a lot, it looks quite turbulent in the video.
> Dont get demoralised, all of us had the same issues when starting out, the pieces will begin to fit together sooner or later and it will all be worthwhile.


Cheers Iain, i'll look to try and reduce the surface movement at the same time as increasing the CO2. Koralias are a few weeks off yet.




dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> I don't use CO2 and I don't know how you are getting on with this, but I might up the KNO3 addition a bit as the plants look a little bit nitrogen deficient.
> The strange brown thing on the Java Fern is a new plantlet, just let it get bigger then attach it some where else. You should be able to see the new fronds have got bigger now.
> cheers Darrel


Thanks Darrel, I found the below image online. Based on this I think it could be a Phosphate deficiency as well "*older leaves yellow*, and parts of the leaf is reabsorbed leading to dead patches, *the leaf falls off rather quickly*.".

Could someone please recommend an increased dose to try for the next 4 weeks before my Koralias arrive?

Currently:
1tsp KNO3 (3 times a week)
1tsp KH2PO4 (3 times a week)
3tsp MgSO4 (3 times a week)

Once the CO2 / flow / distribution is improved will the plants recover? Or will the stems never grow leaves back at the lower part?

I really appreciate the help.


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## ceg4048 (5 Jan 2013)

Let me clarify:
The fundamental problem in this tank is poor CO2. You need look nowhere else but for ways to improve the CO2 uptake. Fix your CO2 first and worry about other nutrient issues later. Nutrient dosing is easy to fix. CO2 is incredibly difficult to fix. No amount of KNO3 or KH2PO4 can ever fix this type of leaf falloff. Therefore keep your eye on the target and do not be distracted.

When you fix CO2 stems will regrow lower leaves, melting will cease, water will be gin clear, leaves will be super clean and will not rot. If you have liquid carbon then use it.

Cheers,


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## Stitch (5 Jan 2013)

Message received and clear as gin!

Cheers Clive.


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## dw1305 (5 Jan 2013)

Hi all,
I'll leave CO2 to Clive as I don't add it, but it is unlikely to be PO4--- deficiency. This is because even though phosphorus PO4--- is one of the macro-elements, plants only need about 1/10 as much P as N (NH4+or NO3-) or K+.

I've never knowingly seen phosphorus deficiency in an aquatic plant, but in terrestrial plants you get purpling and stunting of the new growth. Nutrients that are mobile in the plant (like N, P and K) tend to show in the older leaf as the plant transports N etc from older leaves to newer leaves (which are receiving more PAR). If you look at the _Hygrophila corymbosa_ image the paling of the upper leaves looks very like nitrogen deficiency.I know that _H. corymbosa _grows well low tech, you can see it in this thread <Water Lettuce and it's impact on my tank | UK Aquatic Plant Society>.

If you have floating plants? you can use these to eliminate CO2 as an issue, as they have access to aerial CO2. This is why I use a floater for the "Duckweed index" method of nutrient addition <Slow growing plants and feeding | UK Aquatic Plant Society>.

cheers Darrel


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## Brian Murphy (6 Jan 2013)

I have the same juwel 400 tank and have been having problems from day 1.  Co2 Distribution is very hard to get spot on on such a large tank, especially when trying to run 2 filters thus 2 spray bars working against each other.  I've had to introduce a powerhead to push flow from the Co2 spray bar over to the other side of the tank but still I'm having problems from loss of flow due to inline mixer/reactor and the 2nd spray bar preventing the pushed over Co2 reaching that side of tank.  The drop checker indicates green so shows enough Co2 is getting over but still getting poor growth.  I am waiting for an UP inline atomizer from china so I can go back to one size of hosing as I had to go smaller in parts to fit on this particular mixer/reactor.  I also angled the 2nd spray bar so it helps push the Co2 round the far side of tank and down.  I also dose EI from aquariumplantfood.co.uk.  Lighting is 2 x 54w on for 3 hours overlapping for one hour with the other 2 x 54w which are on for 4 hours, giving me 6 hours light.  Co2 comes on 1 hour before lights on and off 1 hour before lights out.  
My Hydrophilia Polysperma grows like weed in my low tech tank but struggles in this tank ..... it shouldnt be this way but I wont let it beat me!


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