# Fish recommendation?



## LondonDragon (23 Feb 2021)

Hi guys,

At the moment I have a 30cm Fluval cube, low tech with an internal filter.

Currently, I have 1 Siamese Fighting Fish and 10 pigmy Cories, just wondering if it is possible to add any other fish to the setup that would be OK with the Betta? If so how many?

Cheers
Paulo


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## Krisps21 (23 Feb 2021)

I wouldn't personally. Betta don't like lots af fish swimming around them and they have been known to take the eyes from tetra. 30cm isn't really big enough for anything else anyway. I keep my betta with blue carbon shrimp and he's fine with them but it all boils down to the bettas tempriment


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## dean (23 Feb 2021)

I agree it’s down to your Bettas personality some are psychopaths and others are scared of their own shadow 

Does the tank look a bit bare of life ? 

If it does You could add shrimp and snails or a few fish small group of rasboras or pencil fish or a pair of dwarf cichlids 

I’d stay away from tetras even neons can nip a Bettas fins 

If you could have anything what fish would you like to see in it ? 


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## alto (24 Feb 2021)

There are some species that I’d try keeping with Bettas - but I always have a 2nd tank to move any FAILS

There are a lot of success reports for this combination (but also a few fails) https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/hyphessobrycon-amandae/

Except I wouldn’t keep even small Ember tetras in a 30cm cube (though many do)

These https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/celestichthys-margaritatus/ make for a wonderful display in a suitably planted tank - except again, that wouldn’t be a 30cm cube for me - and I’d be surprised if some Bettas didn’t eventually decide to try out some midnight snacks
But then Jurijs mit JS had great success with these in his UNS 5N

For most combinations, I’d settle the small fish in first, adding the Betta after several weeks ... and of course, you’d want to trade in that 30cm cube for an ADA 45P style aquarium as the swimming length is just so much more suitable 

Is your Betta not very active?
Extreme Dragonscale, Rosetail (most sold as Half Moon display Rt genetics), Dumbo Betta splendens can all slow down as they age due to limitations from these mutations
Many Betta breeding farms also show 40-70% incidence of Mycobacterium sp. (one farm in the study was actually at 90%) - part of the study involved changing feeding habits and sources, but this had little impact on the Mycobacterium sp. incidence and further study showed that fry from affected females were positive for Mycobacterium sp.
Note that (most) affected fish showed no outward signs of infection


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## Krzysztof 82 (Kris) (24 Feb 2021)

As guys wrote already, the tank is bit small for more fish, it's only 27L gross, taking of it soil etc. .... 
If it would be 40x40x40 then you have much more room to operate with.


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## dean (24 Feb 2021)

Fish only setup would work out fish stocking level as 25mm of fish per litre of water 
If it’s a well planted and well filtered tank then this could be slightly increased as long as water conditions were closely monitored and regular maintenance was done which I’m sure it is 

So let’s just say you have 20 litres of actual water in the tank 
So that’s 20 fish at 25mm 
1 betta = 2 
9 corys (less than 1 each but let’s call it 1) = 9
Total used is 11 
So there’s 9 x 25mm fish units left 

So adding a small group fish that add up to 225 mm in total body length (don’t count tail length) is what you can do 

I know lots on here will disagree as most are more into the plants and fish are almost secondary  but you will not cause any water quality issues with regularly weekly maintenance at that stock level 

Obviously you can’t put in one fish that will grow to 225 mm some common sense has to be used and appropriately small sized fish have to be chosen 


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## alto (24 Feb 2021)

For me it’s less about so called stocking limits than about fish activity/behaviour - Microdevario kubotai https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/microdevario-nanus/ is one of my favourite fish, and at 15-20mm SL 
or even smaller if you chance across Microdevario nanus 14-16mm SL  https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/microdevario-nanus/
BUT I’d consider neither to be suitable for a 30cm cube as they are active fish and males can spar quite vigorously 
They also do much better long term in groups of 20 and more, rather than 8-10


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## Driftless (24 Feb 2021)

That is a small tank, I think that you are at capacity and you have a nice Betta tank. You may have too many pygmies.


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## Wookii (24 Feb 2021)

Personally I wouldn't keep any fish in a 30cm cube (sorry Paulo) - even the smallest fish I've owned seem seem a little restricted in even a 60 x 30 x 35 tank. I know people seem to traditionally keep Betta in these small cubes, I'm not sure why - when I had a Betta in a 120cm community tank some 18 years ago, he used to happily investigate all areas of the tank all day long, and could easily do the length of the tank in a few seconds.


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## LondonDragon (24 Feb 2021)

Many thanks guys, thought that would be the case in terms of leave has is for now and don't add any more fish, pigmys and Betta get along just fine, see them swimming together quite often specially at feeding time, I have 3 snails in there at the moment also. 

Tank is heavy planted, has filling in a lot since the photo below:



And the tree canopy has a lot of buces now too mixed in.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (24 Feb 2021)

Wookii said:


> I know people seem to traditionally keep Betta in these small cubes, I'm not sure why -


I think it may stem from in nature Betta tend to make their way from from small streams in to rice paddy fields where they end up residing and breeding in small land locked puddles which they are adapted perfectly for being labyrinth breathers so can survive in very low oxygenated waters and the lack of water flow doesn't wash away its bubble nest, also the females can't escape to somewhere else. The down side of this is they are quite adept at getting out of these puddles to a better one by either jumping or heading over land for short periods so it is advised to have a cover on the tank.
Fighters certainly have a personality, when I first got my current one all my RCS totally disappeared so I was concerned he was a shrimp eater but after a while they all showed up again, I guess they didn't like the look of him but then realised he didn't pose a threat. He does actively hunt about in foliage although not sure what he's looking for, there's been small shrimp right in front of his nose many a time which he seems to largely ignore although last week I caught him with half an adult shrimp in his mouth so I hope he's found a dead one and not developed a taste. I'll keep an eye on the situation.

His name is BOD, short for Bit Of a blahblahblahblah. Named because he constantly displays and pulls faces at my corys which may wash and look threatening in the world of betta but I think BOD is what the corys are thinking.

Coming back to small fish I think it might be maxed right now but maybe  @LondonDragon could squeeze half a dozen chilli rasboras in there? I would prefer the chillis with the pygmys and re-home the betta if possible in a tank that small. The betta gets quite large and the scale looks wrong.


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## alto (24 Feb 2021)

Wookii said:


> when I had a Betta in a 120cm community tank some 18 years ago, he used to happily investigate all areas of the tank all day long,


 I had a few Bettas that were decidedly unhappy when I tried to transition them to my larger tanks ... so after several weeks, they got to return to their (boring?) 30cm cube lives

Of course the Bettas that did love the new bigger Life, also became the dedicated shrimp hunters and even night fish hunters (I finally saw Mr Betta take a resting https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/epiplatys-annulatus/ - that rather  explained why my clown killi’s were such seemingly fragile fish)


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## AverageWhiteBloke (24 Feb 2021)

alto said:


> I finally saw Mr Betta take a resting


If I notice a drastic reduction in shrimp numbers or catch him with one in his mouth again I think I'll set up a dedicated shrimp tank for my better specimens and leave BOD in the 50ltr. As much as he's probably a PITA to the cory Sterbai it keeps them on their toes and active rather than just eat sleep repeat machines.


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## LondonDragon (24 Feb 2021)

I wouldn't think keeping a betta in a 30cm cube would be a bad thing, I do have a 60cm and the A900 if it needs more space 



AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Coming back to small fish I think it might be maxed right now but maybe @LondonDragon could squeeze half a dozen chilli rasboras in there? I would prefer the chillis with the pygmys and re-home the betta if possible in a tank that small. The betta gets quite large and the scale looks wrong.


I will stay away from adding more fish  just wanted to get some opinions and that sets it


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## dean (24 Feb 2021)

The minimum water volume for a betta in the UK to be housed in on a permanent basis is 5 litres 









						Guidelines released for keeping Fighters
					






					www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk
				





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## Kalum (24 Feb 2021)

Nobody will ever convince me otherwise that 5L is suitable for any livestock, even Shrimp 

Just because you can shouldn't always mean you should


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## Paul27 (24 Feb 2021)

Kalum said:


> Nobody will ever convince me otherwise that 5L is suitable for any livestock, even Shrimp
> 
> Just because you can shouldn't always mean you should


Totally agree. If somebody actually thinks 5litres is actually ok for a Betta then clearly doesn't care for the welfare of it.


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## Kalum (24 Feb 2021)

but to keep the thread on track @LondonDragon, because your tank is pretty tall and the pygmies will stay low in the tank i think you've went with a good stocking level so far but i's leave it there in terms of fish, only thing i'd consider personally would be some shrimp (because you have long finned betta he will more than likely struggle to catch any of them and it can bring out natural hunting behavior which is fascinating to watch)


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## LondonDragon (24 Feb 2021)

There are a couple of shrimp in there that came along with the plants when I moved them from the 60cm, I have seen the Betta chasing them on occasion in the middle of the tree branches. I will have to take a more updated snap to show you guys how the tank is doing. I am surprised there is no algae at all, and the buces grow very fast and flower often!  The ferns on the canopy do struggle a little, that has now a lot of buces in there and also some moss mixed up.

Yeah the tank is actually 35cm tall, and Betta stays mid to top, and corry stay more at the bottom, but the corries like to shoal around the tank which is nice to see , and on occasion the Betta mixes in with them, very rare chases them, usually the food drops on the sand and he goes eating together with the pigmy's 

I might move some more  shrimp in there since I have loads in the 60cm, can't even remember the species name, I got them of Chris Lukhaup (ShrimpKing) at Vivarium in Holland back in 2012 on the UKAPS Roadtrip, they were wild caught and at the time a new species not available in the market   they been breeding and doing well since (they are just not that exciting).

I think for a Betta and some little corries this tank size is more than adequate, did wonder if it was feasible to add more fish, hence the topic, but looks like it will remain as is


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## John q (24 Feb 2021)

dean said:


> Fish only setup would work out fish stocking level as 25mm of fish per litre of water



Apologies if I'm missing something here but don't you mean 25mm per 4.54L (1" a gallon).


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## mort (24 Feb 2021)

John q said:


> Apologies if I'm missing something here but don't you mean 25mm per 4.54L (1" a gallon).



I just read this thread and I've only heard of the 1 inch per gallon rule as well. It used to be 1" per gallon for tropical and coldwater and 1" per 4 gallons for marine. I know lots of people find this a very outdated method though.


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## Wookii (24 Feb 2021)

I've used this calculator as a rough stocking guide before:



			https://aqadvisor.com/AqAdvisor.php?FilterQuantity=1&AqLengthUnit=cm&AqVolUnit=L&FormSubmit=DisplayInLitres&AqTempUnit=C&


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## John q (24 Feb 2021)

That's the one I usually use wookii.

The old inch per gallon is outdated now and makes no allowance for fish size, filtration (including) plants, or water changes, you could also have an argument about US or UK gallons.

Not trying to preach to anybody as I overstock, I have about 70" of fish (when fully grown) in a 240L tank. I'll argue with myself that I can possibly squeeze a couple more fish in it, but definitely can't put 240" of fish in there.


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## Wookii (24 Feb 2021)

Some times it depends on the tank layout too, swimming space, broken sight lines etc. I'm at the stocking limit of my tank according to that calculator, but I just like fish too much, and it doesn't look overcrowded.


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## dean (24 Feb 2021)

1” per gallon has been around since we only had angle iron tanks and most people only had undergravel filters then, we have moved on a lot since I was a boy 

Just compare what the turnover is now on most aquascapes (x5 is usually minimum accepted these days I personally go x10 with filters not wave makers) not to mention how much plant matter there is to strip nutrients out of the water column 
Hands up who adds Ferts regularly because the fish don’t provide enough 

When I say 25mm per litre that’s for small slender fish not deep bodied fish like Discus or Oscars etc 

You have to work out roughly how many neons = 1 fully grown discus 

Please remember We’re talking about advice for an accomplished aquarist not a newbie 

If you ever get the chance to visit a fish keeper who has his own fish house and breeds fish then do it 
Their fish grow quickly, are strong and healthy and are packed in to the tanks especially the young fish, probably uses air driven sponge filters or their own diy filters, feed lots of live foods as much as they can 
They will do a 50% WC each week 

At the end of the day it’s a personal choice if the tank has large areas of no fish and the owner wants to add a few to fill that space then they can

I’m only saying that in my opinion 225mm of fish could be added safely 
That’s only 7 fully grown neon tetra size fish (giving them 30mm at adult size) 

You also have to take the foot print of the tank into consideration, it’s a standard cube not a tall narrow tank

I expected aquascapers to be on the light side or even under stocking their tanks as the fish generally are not the reason for having an aquascape they are more of an accessory 

Where I’m the opposite Fish first, decorations 2nd. Even if I want to breed something which would require a specific layout then it’s suitable decorated to suit the fish


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## sparkyweasel (24 Feb 2021)

dean said:


> The minimum water volume for a betta in the UK to be housed in on a permanent basis is 5 litres
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The author of that article disgrees.


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## John q (24 Feb 2021)

dean said:


> 1” per gallon has been around since we only had angle iron tanks and most people only had undergravel filters then, we have moved on a lot since I was a boy



I'll agree with that but don't think we've moved on to the extent that you're suggesting.



dean said:


> When I say 25mm per litre that’s for small slender fish not deep bodied fish like Discus or Oscars etc



That's good because those types of fish probably need between 5~10 gallons per fish.



dean said:


> At the end of the day it’s a personal choice if the tank has large areas of no fish and the owner wants to add a few to fill that space then they can



It is a personal choice, but don't pretend it isn't overstocking.



dean said:


> I’m only saying that in my opinion 225mm of fish could be added safely



You're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to disagree with it.

As I said in an earlier post, I overstock and probably run at 1.1" per US gallon.


Edit: Fish not inch..


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## AverageWhiteBloke (25 Feb 2021)

LondonDragon said:


> very rare chases them


They tend to get more aggressive when they have a bubble nest, mine usually builds his at the same end of the tank where I put the food in where there is less flow, I put the food in there so it sinks for the corys and doesn't get sucked in the filter so quick and had chance to sink to the bottom. I switch ends when he's nesting or break his nest up to chill him out. In your cube you will probably have to break the nest as the fish have nowhere else to go. I can't see your picture btw mate, just me?


dean said:


> They will do a 50% WC each week


I doubt they do that at any of the stores round my way even the big ones. Not sure if it is because being business their water is metered to save money but assuming they are using tapwater and water comes out the tap round here below 100 TDS when I test the water that's in the bag of fish I bought it can be in the 600 range. I would guess if I nitrate tested it it would be off the chart due to stock levels. There's also no measurable nitrate coming out the tap and only 5ppm tops on the water report. 
I would guess they don't use RO as this wastes even more water and there would be little point in buffering up to Malawi or Tang levels as there's very rarely any in there so would guess it's on closed massive system of small tanks inter connected and run off one filter system.


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## dw1305 (25 Feb 2021)

Hi all, 
I know <"every-one is going to differ">, but I have different method for stocking density, it just goes:


> _when you stand in front of the tank can you see plenty of the fish?_


If you can? <"You have too many"> (or not enough plants for that stocking density). 


> _...........When I say to people that I didn't know I had Corydoras hastatus left, and that I hadn't seen them for months, but when I had to move the tank I found they'd spawned and I had considerably more than I started with, I think they think I'm either lying, deluded or very short sighted......._


The advantage of the "understocked" approach is that you have some built in spare filtration capacity, it doesn't matter when your fish grow, or multiply in number, you have some wriggle room. 

I also keep a "spare tank", it is the same as all the other tanks, but it doesn't have <"any permanent residents">. 

cheers Darrel


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## Maf 2500 (25 Feb 2021)

Assuming same body shape and same metabolic rate a 3 inch fish has 27 times the bioload on the aquarium as a one inch fish.

That's why I never understand these one inch rules no matter the volume specified per inch.


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## alto (26 Feb 2021)

LondonDragon said:


> might move some more shrimp in there since I have loads in the 60cm, can't even remember the species name, I got them of Chris Lukhaup (ShrimpKing) at Vivarium in Holland back in 2012 on the UKAPS Roadtrip, they were wild caught and at the time a new species not available in the market  they been breeding and doing well since (they are just not that exciting).


photos (Hint)

I’m rather fond of plain tiger shrimp, raccoon shrimp etc - and a dull looking shrimp apparently fares better with gently interested shrimp hunters


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## alto (26 Feb 2021)

Maf 2500 said:


> I never understand these one inch rules no matter the volume specified per inch.


Yes but until those recommendations were edited/redacted, the statement did include mention of slender bodied fish such as neon tetras etc, and that deeper bodied fish required much lower stocking densities etc etc

Just look at the aquarium packaging - any failure of the product to deliver should result in immediate refunds and compensation
(note that ADA Aquariums arrive in plain white wrappers  )


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