# Packing it in "NO I'm Back boys and Girls" Update @ 31.05.09



## Dolly Sprint 16v (16 May 2009)

Gang@ukaps

Quick note to let you all know that I am packing in   tank getting worse and I am fed up of throwing money at it and going no where. 

So long guy

Paul


----------



## Superman (16 May 2009)

*Re: packing it in*

I know it can be an expensive hobby, especially when things don't go right. 
I also thought about packing it in, but then went back to basics and are there or there about now. 
I hope you reconsider and continue as once you get the knack youre onto a winner.


----------



## aaronnorth (16 May 2009)

*Re: packing it in*

it has been said before but i really do think you over-think things. Why not try your hand on the low tech side of things until you build some experience. This way you need no CO2, and algae becomes less of a chance. Everything in the tank become much easier to control.

Good luck.


----------



## JamesM (16 May 2009)

*Re: packing it in*

Paul, have patience - things will get worse before they get better. But you're not giving it time to work.

Up your dosing, keep co2 high and cut lighting to 6 hours. Leave it run like this for at least 2 weeks, pulling out as much algae as possible (daily if need be). Keep up your water changes and have patience. It won't fix itself over night.


----------



## Nelson (16 May 2009)

*Re: packing it in*

paul,
don't give up yet.still just getting going.won't take much now.


----------



## nry (16 May 2009)

*Re: packing it in*

Your choice, but I know it's taken me a few years to fully appreciate how to set up and maintain a planted tank.  The understanding comes from two places - the folks here (and a number of folks who are here but were somewhere else before UKAPS existed) and also my own experiences.  Experiences as in killing fish through treatment mis-use (my bad), starting the same tank with different scapes 2 or 3 times, trial and error with the massive amounts of plants now available...

I'm of the opinion that if you want to succeed at something you have to keep trying.  You have to have the bad to fully understand the good   We're all here to help so throw your frustration our way and we'll pull up a chair, crack open a beer, and work through it all with you.


----------



## andy (16 May 2009)

*Re: packing it in*

Paul....sorry but im not too sure of the problems you've had but these things are here to try us and usually, we can learn from the problems we have and it will make us and our tanks better.

In the 35 years of keeping both tropical and reef aquaria, i've seen lots of things come and go....bad algea issues (BGA was horrendous), flatworms and bubble algea (valonia) in reef aquariums and lots more.  These things all test us and hopefully improve our knowledge on dealing with them.

Sometimes, we spend far too much time worrying and fretting over our tanks and are constantly there with our hands in the tank and bottles of various cures and treatments and we never have time to sit back and enjoy our tanks.

So, as per previous advice, take your time and keep at it.  Follow the advice on here from the experts and you'll get there

Good luck

Andy


----------



## Mark Evans (16 May 2009)

*Re: packing it in*

paul mate, Hang fire!!!!!

dont throw the towel in yet mate. simple steps can be made to over come your problems. go back to basics, even with co2, just lower your lighting levels firstly 6 hours per day on a timer! if you can Half the output 2 tubes instead of 4...what ever your combo is.

fert your tank in the correct manner. EI was the breakthrough that allowed me to be relatively successful and also allows me to control virtually every aspect of my tanks.i just pick the tank size and dose acordingly.

or you could go down the TPN+ route

 W/C @ 50% per week! x 2 in the first few weeks. 

24/7 co2 @ higher than a green drop checker rate. (watch your fish though)

filtaration beyond your wildest dreams, korolias are brilliant! 

try seting up a small 60 litre and "play" learn everything in that then up scale.

DONT pack it in!


----------



## Nelson (17 May 2009)

*Re: packing it in*

hi paul,
as you can see,people are here to help.don't give up yet.


----------



## StevenA (17 May 2009)

*Re: packing it in*

I agree with the other guys Paul, definately don't give up mate. This hobby has a fantastic learning curve, and even the problems we face from time to time are interesting to sort out, and will stand you in good stead for the future. Start again from scratch if you have to and ask lots and lots of questions, soak up all the advice, and try again and again if you have to, cos it's a great hobby with some excellent fellow hobbyists, especially on this forum


----------



## LondonDragon (17 May 2009)

*Re: packing it in*

Just go low tech, use crypts, ferns, anubias, low demanding plants, low light, no CO2 and you will be fine. I am moving my tank towards that kind of setup and still looks decent, have a look at the last few pages of my Rio 125 journal.


----------



## Dolly Sprint 16v (29 May 2009)

*"Well boy and Girls I'm back"*

I would like to take this opportunity to thank you all for your comments which inc assistant to help me.

Quick update on proceeding:

2 x HK 1 pumps bought - rating @ 1500lph each - one each side of the tank.
1 x New lighting unit - 4 x 39watts - 4 x florgro tubes fitted.
Slight increase in Co2 to compensate for the increase in lighting.
Both DC's are lime or light green.
Fertz: Double powder doses of KN03 - to help HC, KH2P04 stayed the same and MGS04 stayed the same to 600mls of water. 
Trace Mix double powder dose to 200mls of water.
Photoperiod 9hrs @ two tube Inc. 6 hrs @ four tubes. 
Picy attached.

Waiting delivery of a aquatic plant book so I can learn more about the requirements of aquatic plants.

Plants are pearling now, but there has been an outbreak of GDA on the glass and the Brown algae has got worse any idea's of how to attack this problem.






Regards

Paul


----------



## nry (29 May 2009)

*Re: Packing it in "NO I'm Back boys and Girls"*

Really like the layout there!

GDA and dust algae generally go away on their own if you keep on top of them.  I'd be tempted to crank the CO2 a bit higher (if the fish are happy with it), take the drop checkers to yellow if you can, but up things slowly.

If you've been playing with CO2 levels then this in itself can trigger some algae blooms if memory serves?

Dose whatever EI fertilisers are suggested for your tank size, I'd ignore plant mass etc, just dose the EI rates.  The whole point of EI is overdosing to ensure you get no deficiencies, so holding back on any is pointless.  You don't have a huge plant mass and most of the plants look like slower growers so unless you're getting really low nitrAte readings (remember the test kits aren't really accurate anyhow) I'd not over dose EI levels.


----------



## Themuleous (29 May 2009)

*Re: Packing it in "NO I'm Back boys and Girls"*

Mate thats a great tank!  Why would you want to give up? 

Sam


----------



## nry (29 May 2009)

*Re: Packing it in "NO I'm Back boys and Girls"*

I'd also be tempted to ditch the books...but from what I read you like your in-depth knowledge 

EI offers an easy way to ensure plants get what they need without worrying about anything too detailed.  Suits me, though over the years I've picked up quite a bit from this site and Tom Barr's site too.


----------



## Dolly Sprint 16v (29 May 2009)

*Re: Packing it in "NO I'm Back boys and Girls"*

Thanks Guy for the replies - I am going to crack this - even if it kills me. Lights and circulation pumps have only been running 1 week now. I know everybody has said it take times and everybody probably thinks I am making a mountain out of a mole hill, I do not see my tank everyday: Saturday, Sunday,Wednesday night and Friday night is viewing / tank work time so if there are any changes, even if its a minute / minimal change I can see them.   

Paul.


----------



## SKP1995 (29 May 2009)

*Re: Packing it in "NO I'm Back boys and Girls"*

I'd maybe reduce the burst of all 4 tubes to try and help with your algae problems, otherwise though that's a nice looking tank you have!


----------



## TDI-line (29 May 2009)

*Re: Packing it in "NO I'm Back boys and Girls"*

Your tank looks very nice Paul, and i'm glad your sticking with it.


----------



## nry (29 May 2009)

*Re: Packing it in "NO I'm Back boys and Girls"*

I always go by the idea that any major change takes at least two weeks to reap potential benefits.  Be this upping CO2, adding a new plant, changing your fertilisation regime etc etc.

I finally have my CO2 back as of two weeks ago - plants are only seeing the benefits of it now, at least judging by the amount of pearling I have now compared with two weeks ago, I can only put two and two together and assume that the plants have pretty much adjusted to the CO2 vs EasyCarbo they had for a month or so after my old CO2 setup gave up on me.  Algae had slowly crept back in, but in the past two weeks it has almost gone, I'm only left with minimal blue-green stuff below the substrate along the front of the tank which I push down each week with an old store card.

You'll get there, the tank layout itself is superb, I love the crypts!


----------



## Superman (29 May 2009)

*Re: Packing it in "NO I'm Back boys and Girls"*

Looks great, I'm glad your still going.
We've all taken a while to get grips with it all at the start but once cracked your onto a winner.


----------



## Dolly Sprint 16v (29 May 2009)

*Re: Packing it in "NO I'm Back boys and Girls"*

Thx guys for the replies - the picy attached was taken last weekend - a I stated within my thread the front glass / side (only one) side has been cover in GBA - flared up during this week, water change tomorrow and I will wipe the algae off with a cloth + I have to mix some more fertz, so I am going to double up the powder mix to the same quantity of water and see what happens.  Kill or cure time.

Regards
paul.


----------



## Nelson (30 May 2009)

*Re: Packing it in "NO I'm Back boys and Girls"*

 .welcome back paul.glad you've stuck with it.


----------



## Mark Evans (30 May 2009)

*Re: Packing it in "NO I'm Back boys and Girls"*

glad you didnt quit!


----------



## Dolly Sprint 16v (30 May 2009)

*Re: Packing it in "NO I'm Back boys and Girls" Update @ 30.05.09*

Thx for replies on my return.

Today a big water change really big 90%, all glass cleaned with cloth to remove algae, pipes cleaned, pumps washed, DC cleaned Inc. new solution, slight increase in Co2, new fertz mixed - double powder dosage to same quantity of water, substrate heater back on - lets see what happens now, kill or cure.

Regards
Paul.


----------



## nry (30 May 2009)

*Re: Packing it in "NO I'm Back boys and Girls" Update @ 30.05.09*

Patience


----------



## baron von bubba (30 May 2009)

*Re: Packing it in "NO I'm Back boys and Girls" Update @ 30.05.09*

ok, so i'm not the most experienced person around here but would it possibly be better to have your power heads on the back wall pointing in the same direction as your spraybar, so they compliment each other rather than give an uneven flow pattern as it is?
is it a new tank set  up also?
if so the plant biomass seems a tad on the light side.


----------



## Nelson (31 May 2009)

*Re: Packing it in "NO I'm Back boys and Girls" Update @ 30.05.09*

hi,
looks to me like the pump on the left is pushing flow along the front and the one on the right along the back towards the tall plants on the left,spaybar in the middle.a bit like paulo's(londondragons).i would have thought a good circular flow around the tank.
but i'm not that experienced either


----------



## Dolly Sprint 16v (31 May 2009)

nry said:
			
		

> Patience






			
				baron von bubba said:
			
		

> ok, so i'm not the most experienced person around here but would it possibly be better to have your power heads on the back wall pointing in the same direction as your spraybar, so they compliment each other rather than give an uneven flow pattern as it is?
> is it a new tank set up also?
> if so the plant biomass seems a tad on the light side.



Guys

Last August 2008 I had a problem with a tank and I had to buy another one rather quickly as I had fish and plants in buckets, fish and substrate are approx. 16 months old. I lost a lot of the plants due to them being in buckets, so it was a case of replanting. Picy attached as the tank was @ 23.11.2008. 






The tank had the original hood, filter was a Ex1200, Co2 kit was by Dennerle - diffuser was Dennerle ladder system, fertz added was by easylife â€“ Profito, Ferro, Fosfo and Nitro - everything was honky dory apart from some of the leaves were suffering a deficiency see attached picy. 














I posted a thread regarding the condition of these leaves and I was advised that it was a fertz issue and too double dose the Profito, things stayed the same â€“ plants requiring high light levels died. I was also advised to try E.I as it would be cheaper than buying off the shelf fertz, so I purchased the powders and did my mix as per the E.I article. 


*If you want the honest truth the tank has been on the decline since I started E.I dosing and reading other threads of people who have started E.I dosing are / have suffered issues / problems with this. *

Still having issues and numerous threads posted â€“ replies, increase Co2, ladder system could not cope with the amount of Co2, purchased an Aqua Medic 1000 reactor, concerns raised regarding lighting â€“ replies lighting should be ok but increase your Co2, increase circulation â€“ so I bought an Ehiem 2080 rated @ 1700 lph, then I found out that it only produces 825 lph once full of media (test carried out) with in AM reactor inline its only 600 lph, that was a waste of Â£250.00 â€“ should have kept my old 1200 running.

That why the thread was posted â€œpacking inâ€ spending money on tank and its going no where. 

* Thanks to you guyâ€™s who took time to reply to my thread and convinced me to stay â€“ I thank you *

So I purchased 2 x HK 2 pumps and bought a new lighting hood, as I was convinced that a lot of the issues regarding plant growth was down to lighting and nobody Inc. the so called â€œexpertsâ€ would put there heads on the block and say â€œYESâ€ its lighting â€“ the only thing they say is * â€œINCREASE CO2 LEVELSâ€*.

So â€“ Co2 at its maximum, Lighting improved dramatically, circulation improved, the only thing that left is fertz â€“ so double dosing as I need to improve the fertz as I have improved everything else the uptake of plant nutrition will increase.

Perhaps we need some engineers here to work out logical solutions to the issues / problems we have with aquairiums.

Regards
Paul.


----------



## nry (31 May 2009)

Fair old walk around to where you are now then!

Hard as it may be, whatever you are doing now, stick with it for (if you can) 3 or 4 weeks before changing anything else, let the new regime become 'normal' before changing something else.

The whole point of EI is that it should be simple.  It's designed for an average tank, with a slightly higher than average amount of light, and (light levels dependent) suits use of CO2 as well.  Alter anything beyond 'average' and you probably need to alter everything else - stick in extra light?  Probably need more CO2 to keep at 30ppm and if you have loads of plants then you'll likely need more fertiliser too.

I'm of the group who had problems before EI, then switched to EI and the problems went away.  I guess what EI did for me was introduce a strict maintenance routine, something which I lacked before, and possibly went some way to explain the algae problems I had years ago.

It strikes me that the damage on the red plant looks like it has been eaten by something though, rather than a deficiency?


----------



## Dave Spencer (31 May 2009)

Mark, the pictures you have put up of your tanks look very nice. You have a talent and really shouldn`t even consider giving up. Your plants may well be showing a variety of deficiencies, which a correct dosing of EI will resolve given time, but your plants will need that time. Any leaves showing a deficiency are not going to recover, so let the healthy new growth come through by removing the doomed leaves.

You seem a bit cynical of some of the advice you have been given, which is understandable considering the money you have spent. What you need to bear in mind is that the "experts" don`t experience the degree of problems you are having, but know how to correct them if they do start to show. It is always more difficult to diagnose a tank over the internet than it is to be stood in front of your own tank and figure out what to do.

Whereabouts in Cheshire do you live?

Dave.


----------



## Dolly Sprint 16v (31 May 2009)

Thx Guys

The picy was how the tank was last year 23.11.2008. The early part of this year I started E.I and it just added to the issue / problems I was having.

Tank @ 23.11.2008





So I spent some money - added new plants , lights etc and in my opinion its still going down hill. Picy attached as the tank is now.

Plants on the front left hand side and infront of the water intake pipe very right hand side all Crypts + some of the HC are 8 weeks old, the other crypts in the middle are 4 weeks old + some HC.

Tank @ 24.05.2009




The tank looked better last year.

Regards
Paul.


----------



## nry (31 May 2009)

Hmm, I really like the current layout, it has much more structure than the older one - the old one (imho) was just plants, a big load of plants (nice ones though!), the newer one looks great


----------



## rawr (31 May 2009)

nry said:
			
		

> Hmm, I really like the current layout, it has much more structure than the older one - the old one (imho) was just plants, a big load of plants (nice ones though!), the newer one looks great


 I agree! Glad to see you back too.  Keep on top of it mate and if you need any advice just ask, someone will be able to help you out.


----------



## Nelson (31 May 2009)

yeah,i agree with nry.much prefer the tank now.but it is YOUR tank.


----------



## nry (31 May 2009)

I've even taken some inspiration from your layout, IF I ever re-scape my 60cm


----------



## Dolly Sprint 16v (31 May 2009)

nry said:
			
		

> Hmm, I really like the current layout, it has much more structure than the older one - the old one (imho) was just plants, a big load of plants (nice ones though!), the newer one looks great



Thx Nry

This is what I am referring too. last years tank lots of plants - high light loving plants struggling and decaying, swapped to E.I and decaying increased dramatically, time for a change - low light loving plants as they were the only ones I seemed to be able to keep, still E.I and these are struggling hence new lights, increase in flow etc. I am nearly there, this is what makes me think that there is something just missing and the only thing I can think it is now is fertz - hence double the dose. Some of the wllisii had yellow leaves, solved that by increasing trace mix, but the feel slimy now.

I have come to the conclusion that if there is a deficiency within the tank or water column whether its is lighting, flow / circulation, fertz and Co2 the net effect is an outbreak of algae and a lot of the replies within threads in relation to remove / reducing the effect of algae is increase the Co2 is only masking the issue when there are probably more fundamental issues that has caused the outbreak.  

Hope this make sense.

Regards
Paul.


----------



## nry (31 May 2009)

Way I see it, since algae loves instability, all the changes you've put in have possibly given a degree of instability...kind of why I'd say leave things for as long as you possibly can before changing anything.  Crypts for one really don't like being moved or shoved around much.  I moved a few of mine around a month back and they're only just starting to show some new growth even though they were growing much faster before I moved them.


----------



## baron von bubba (31 May 2009)

hmmm, you have been round the block a bit with that dude!
hopefully everything  you've learnt thro having yer probs will pay off in the long run!

have you still got the old filter?  running that along side the ehiem could be an option?!

well, good luck getting it all sorted!


----------



## Dolly Sprint 16v (31 May 2009)

baron von bubba said:
			
		

> hmmm, you have been round the block a bit with that dude!
> hopefully everything you've learnt thro having yer probs will pay off in the long run!
> 
> have you still got the old filter? running that along side the ehiem could be an option?!
> ...



Thx Von

Ex1200 is sitting up stairs doing nothing (for sale). I purchased the 2080 to improve flow / filtration (OEM rated flow 1700 lph). I have now found out that a filter loose approx. 50% of their flow when they are full up with media - so you could say that the Ex1200 would only be pumping 600 lph. I have not got the room in the cupboard to fit both filter, the 2080 is that big is takes up one side of my cupboard and all my other equipment is in the other side, I have had to modify a shelf to get the Co2 bottle in. That why I have added two HK 1 pumps to assist with the circulation, I will get there even if it kills me. 



> There are solutions to any problems / issues that arise and it's not to bang more Co2 into the tank.



Regards
Paul.


----------



## SKP1995 (31 May 2009)

> a lot of the replies within threads in relation to remove / reducing the effect of algae is increase the Co2 is only masking the issue when there are probably more fundamental issues that has caused the outbreak



It's not really masking the issue, CO2 is critical to whether a lot of forms of algae thrives or dies.


----------



## Nelson (31 May 2009)

hi,
seems to me that algae is nearly always co2,flow and ferts.you've got good flow,co2 at max and overdosing EI. :?


----------



## Dolly Sprint 16v (31 May 2009)

Piemonster said:
			
		

> > a lot of the replies within threads in relation to remove / reducing the effect of algae is increase the Co2 is only masking the issue when there are probably more fundamental issues that has caused the outbreak
> 
> 
> 
> It's not really masking the issue, CO2 is critical to whether a lot of forms of algae thrives or dies.



Well my Co2 is at its limit DC are yellow which is too much. One thing a have noticed since adding the HK pumps where ever the direction of flow algae seems to be more promient. So following your comment see above - too much Co2 assist algae in growing - correct?.

Regards
paul.


----------



## SKP1995 (31 May 2009)

My comment was poorly worded, I meant CO2 levels are critical, too much CO2 does not propagate algae as far as i am aware, quite the opposite.


----------

