# Many fish illnesses in a short period of time



## Ted (21 May 2015)

Hi guys,

Hoping for your diagnostic help. I'm trying to understand what I have on my hands. Bacterial, Fungal, Viral, Environmental (e.g. toxin)? I don't think it's water quality. 

In the last week, I've had the following fish deaths:
1) Glass catfish, ich and death
2) Betta albimarginata, atrophy , pop-eye, 'hunger-strike,' and death
3) Cuban top-minnows, fin rot, 'hunger-strike' and death
4) Peacock gudgeons, swim-bladder infection and death

I treated the tank today with Interpet Swimbladder treatment and added some aquarium salt. 

Water quality is great. No ammonia. No nitrites. PH constant at 6.7. Do a weekly water-change 40% (o/w half is RO). 

I dose EI (nothing new there) and use easycarbo. The tank is 240ml heavily planed and has been running almost two years.

Thoughts? Really appreciate your help!


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## Tim Harrison (21 May 2015)

It's always hard to answer this type of query...there is never enough information, such as info on stocking levels, feeding regime etc. So I hate to say it...but these infections are often associated with poor water quality.
There are parameters other than those you mentioned that are not commonly tested for, like metal and organic carbon toxicity, it could also be a water quality problem from source.
Plus test kits are notoriously inaccurate, and anyway they will only give you a snapshot of water conditions at the time the test was taken.
Regardless of the cause, once a fish is stressed to the point of disease they become vulnerable to a multitude of other infections and I think that's what you are experiencing.
It's important to eradicate as many possible causes before further treatment otherwise it'll be pointless. So make sure your stocking levels and feeding regime are appropriate, and keep up regular maintenance - water changes and filter cleaning etc.
Then I'd dose with a combination of eSHa 2000 and eSHa Exit, which provides a broad spectrum treatment...check out the eSHa website for more info...


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## sciencefiction (21 May 2015)

Have you added any fish?

If not, then multiple sick fish means water quality no matter how well we take care of the fish. That doesn't necessarily mean just ammonia and nitrites. Toxin of some sort as you mentioned, also how stable is that water using RO, in terms of ph, gh, kh, TDS changes each time you do a water change for example?

If it's not a water quality triggered, it normally happens to just a couple of fish in a normally taken care after tank. Some fish just have weaker immune system and succumb to pathogenic organisms in the tank for one or another reason, the rest normally stay healthy. Or it can most likely affect just one species of fish if they are more prone to a particular pathogen.

But when you talk multiple fish disease outbreak, different species, without anything being added, I'd look into water quality issues and those must have happened already, it's not about how your water tests today. This must have been going on for a while, two, three or more months down the line depending on the immune system of the fish when it started happening.

The other option is, you already had fish carrying parasites/worms of some sort and what you are seeing now is secondary infections from a primal pathogen. In this case, you must treat the most urgent, which is more likely bacterial now as it kills faster. Then you need to address the parasite infection after.

Diseases happen because of:

Water quality or parasites lead to bacteria and bacteria to fungus. That's the order they come in in most cases.
There are some exceptions of course, but they are uncommon. So, one needs to be 100% it is not environmental before they start dumping meds because the two together will kill fish. Then if it's not the water, suspect systematic parasitic infection, triggering bacterial if the parasitic is not treated

So question is, how fast did the signs develop? Did they get pop-eye, swim bladder, ich, fin rot and stopped eating overnight?


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## Ted (21 May 2015)

Thank you both for the thoughtful responses. Hopefully, these will be of use to others with systemic disease patterns in their tanks.  High-level it sounds like an underlying parasite but would appreciate your thoughts, given a few more details:

I did add the four Cuban topminnows a month ago, three of whom have since died from fin-rot followed by death. This coincided with the start of the illnesses so they would be the likely source of a parasite if that's the culprit. I didn't realise that parasites lead to bacteria and bacteria to fungus. It makes sense and could explain a great deal. 

This was followed by fin-rot in the bettas a week later and the subsequent death of one of the bettas who developed popeye. The glass catfish developed ich over days and died. Yesterday, gudgeons were swimming verticially and were dead within 12 hours. The rest of the fish are eating readily, mouthbrooding and otherwise doing their thing. I take your point that it will be those with a weaker immune system who succumb so this isn't unexpected.

My hunch is that it's not environmental given that there are a bunch of topminnow fry thriving in a floating breeding tank and they would likely succumb first if it were heavy metal poisoning etc. Could it be bad water quality? I guess it's possible since there are so many variables. The tank has been similarly stocked for a couple of years. 240 Litres (8 garra flavatra, 3 peacock gudgeons, 3 SAEs, 8 betta albimarginata, 4 stiphodon semoni and 8 topminnow fry).

I guess I can either do massive, massive water changes and clean my filters. Alternatively, I can continue with the Interpet (which I assume is a broad spectrum antibiotic or functions as one). Open to a switch to ESHA if that's a good move although I suspect mixing meds is bad. 

Thanks again guys


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## Tim Harrison (21 May 2015)

It is bad pharmacology...but follow the manufacturers instructions, which usually involve several substantial water changes first, and I'm sure it'll be fine. These things plague us from time to time and it's often an opportunity to take stock and consider how we can do things differently; whether it's poor husbandry, the introduction of diseased stock, or a combination of the two. When you're dealing with natural/semi-natural systems maintaining healthy homoeostasis can be challenging at the best of times.


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## sciencefiction (21 May 2015)

Does it say on the Interpet bottle what the ingredients of the medications are?
I don't seem to be able to find them online and without that one has no idea what that treatment actually treats apart from what the manufacturer claims which is: "Cures bacterial swimbladder infections" But there's no such disease really, it's a symptom of several possible things.
I would presume it's mostly for internal issues which will hardly cure pop eye or fungus type appearance.


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## sciencefiction (21 May 2015)

Also, while treating it's best to not to dose anything else like ferts or easy carbo just in case.
Salt will send your TDS through the roof, not all fish can handle a fast rise and especially if you start fluctuating the level up and down via water changes. If salt is added, you have to know what for in order to adjust the right dose and maintain it for the duration of the intended treatment. It's not suitable as a prophylactic or shoot in the dark treatment because it only works if used correctly as per the possible disease. Otherwise it just causes unnecessary stress to the fish. It messes up with their osmoregulation and can strip off their slime coat too. It will not cure internal parasites the slightest but has some effect on certain ectoparasites and possibly certain fungus like saprolegnia.

By parasites I mean any sort of protozoa, flat or round worms.


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## EnderUK (22 May 2015)

Anything I do catch in time it's big daily water changes for the whole tank and possible a Methylene blue dip for the effected fish.


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## Ted (26 May 2015)

I wanted to provide an update. The fish with swimbladder infections are now swimming freely and eating, the fin-rot is abating and all seems well with the others. I'm reluctant to attribute this outcome to the Interpet 13 (given how idiosyncratic these things are) but I'll follow the manufacturers instructions and keep dosing. Thanks again for your support.

For posterity, below are the steps I've taken. Please keep in mind that these things are highly variable and it's statistically invalid to link one successful outcome to any of the steps I took:
+Stop EI and Easycarbo for duration of treatment
Day 1
+30% water changes followed by 0.05 ml/litre of Interpet 
+Adding 2tsp / 100 litres of salt (as per manufacturer's instructions)
Day 2
+Adding 2tsp / 100 litres of salt (as per manufacturer's instructions)
Day 4
+30% water changes followed by 0.05 ml/litre of Interpet 
+Adding 2tsp / 100 litres of salt (as per manufacturer's instructions)
Day 5
+Adding 2tsp / 100 litres of salt (as per manufacturer's instructions)
Day 8
+30% water changes followed by 0.05 ml/litre of Interpet 
+Adding 2tsp / 100 litres of salt (as per manufacturer's instructions)
Day 9
+Adding 2tsp / 100 litres of salt (as per manufacturer's instructions)

Please also keep in mind that the salt is not good for the plants and my HC is a mess.


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## sciencefiction (26 May 2015)

I am glad that they are getting better.


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