# Fish for patio pond



## Conort2 (20 Apr 2022)

Hi,

Hope you’re all good?

I recently slung a patio pond together, dimensions are 100cmL x 90cmW and  approximately 30cm deep. Are there any tropical fish you’d recommend that would do well in this set up. I know a few of you have had summer tubs, what did you keep in them and what done well?

I was thinking along the lines of cyprinids such as danio, minnows etc. I know a lot of stuff from Myanmar can be kept a bit cooler. Medaka seem like a good option but they’re hard to get hold of and quite expensive for what they are.

The raised pond is well planted so should have lots of cover once grown in.

Let me know what you think? If I can keep them outside all year long that would be a massive bonus. 

Cheers


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## castle (20 Apr 2022)

Depends where you are, but 30cm depth could completely freeze. 

Neocaridina, spawned all summer for me, and lived all year outside for a few years, until some frogs got in. 
Obviously, goldfish. I don't believe any fish looks as good as a goldfish in a pond  
Rice fish, arguably best.
White cloud minnows work well, wont' survive through winter though.


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## AlecF (20 Apr 2022)

Medaka (rice fish), perfect. They are friendly and can stand cold. Also easy breeders. I adore mine.


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## seedoubleyou (20 Apr 2022)

I’d have to say medaka too, hardy and will get through winter.


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## Conort2 (20 Apr 2022)

Medaka it is by the looks of it then. Anyone recommend a good source? I’ve noticed ruinemans has some white ones in stock so my lfs should be able to order in. I’m more a fan of the reds and red and whites if I’m honest though and would prefer them if I can find some.

I was tempted to go for a couple of top view ranchu but got a feeling they’d be no good for a uk winter. It’s in a sheltered spot and it doesn’t get that cold here in the south east but might be pushing my luck.


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## kammaroon (20 Apr 2022)

I've kept my medaka outside since May last year, in round tubs 55cm diameter, 36cm high. They're in west facing balcony and the water did not freeze at any point but it has been a mild winter in London. The babies survived winter outside too but have not grown much over that period. The most frequent types of medakas I've seem in the shops are the oranges and silvers. On Band, Kew Aquatic has red white ones listed for £8.90 each.

I also kept blue star endlers outside from May to September last year. They did well, producing lots of babies. The downside is that they are dark on top, so were difficult to see in the tub.


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## killi69 (20 Apr 2022)

I have kept Aphanius mentho outside in small tubs for years.  Easy to keep and they breed well. Same for Macropodus ocellatus, roundtail paradise fish, if you can get hold of them.  Both can be kept outdoors year round and dont mind the tubs heating up a lot in the sun during summer.


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## Conort2 (21 Apr 2022)

killi69 said:


> I have kept Aphanius mentho outside in small tubs for years.  Easy to keep and they breed well. Same for Macropodus ocellatus, roundtail paradise fish, if you can get hold of them.  Both can be kept outdoors year round and dont mind the tubs heating up a lot in the sun during summer.


I really like the paradise fish, sourcing them may prove to be an issue though.


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## zozo (21 Apr 2022)

I have something like a patio pond and keep goldfish in it... Also had some White clouds for a while which I adopted from somebody leaving the country.
When it comes to the outdoor what you need to be cautious of is the Dragonfly nymph, they start out very tiny and you will not notice them. They live a few years submerged and are ambush predators that steadily grow to a few inches in size, then if you keep rather small fish smaller than a few inches it might be you start missing a few, and the fish population decline one after the other.

They grow up to 3 inches in size before being ready to hatch into a dragonfly... Once it's in the pond it can live up to 5 years submerged before uou'll find them like this.






One of these monsters ate 5 of my White cloud minnows and about 4 baby goldfish of 3cm in size in one season. I didn't know it was in there till I started missing fish. Then I went on the lookout, fortunately, it was in an outdoor glass tank so I finally spotted the culprit, caught it and took it out. The one that did it was barely larger than the fish itself and still had a few years to go... In a pond setup only viewable from the top you will never ever see them... 

Now you know what you can expect after being in awe over such a stunning beautiful dragonfly hoovering over your pond visit...

It's not a matter of if but when, but you'll get one finally in your McDonald's fly-in restaurant.


Another thing you always should be ready for as already mentioned is sudden cold winters, 30cm water column can turn into a block of ice over 2 nights.
You need to be prepared and ready for this with a better solution or a temporary indoor shelter for the fish. Also, best to drain the pond entirely during such periods and rescue the hibernating frogs in it. They are fairly hardy but will not survive -12°C for days in 30cm water on a patio. And you don't want to have dead frogs in it after the thaw.  Frogs hibernate submerged at the bottom of ditches in nature, ditches in nature are in the ground and only freeze from the top down. A patio pond freezes from all directions turning into 1 block of ice. The frog doesn't know this and assumes it is safe and in a ditch. But it isn't it will die, it doesn't have sufficient natural antifreeze for this situation.


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## shangman (21 Apr 2022)

Conort2 said:


> I really like the paradise fish, sourcing them may prove to be an issue though.


I asked about them at Wildwoods, they said they don't have them but they could order them in, but also that they were £18-20 each. It seems like a lot of easy-to-keep outdoors fish are really expensive.


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## Conort2 (21 Apr 2022)

shangman said:


> I asked about them at Wildwoods, they said they don't have them but they could order them in, but also that they were £18-20 each. It seems like a lot of easy-to-keep outdoors fish are really expensive.


Not the cheapest of fish then! They seem like the perfect fit for a patio pond though. I’ll put my feelers out for them.

Think a small group of paradise fish with medaka will be good. 

Anyone had any luck with medaka eggs bought online? Seem like they should be easy to hatch and raise providing they’re viable.


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## zozo (21 Apr 2022)

What about the Red Shiner? Notropis lutrensis...  You might find them in pond shops...


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## Conort2 (21 Apr 2022)

zozo said:


> What about the Red Shiner? Notropis lutrensis...  You might find them in pond shops...


I really liked the look of rainbow shiners but wasn’t sure if it would be too small for them? They seem like a pretty active fish.


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## mort (21 Apr 2022)

I don't know much about ricefish but are the red and whites oryzias woworae? I remember looking into those years ago and thought they need much warmer temperatures.

I guess the benefit of ricefish is you can probably make them pay for themselves.


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## Conort2 (21 Apr 2022)

mort said:


> I don't know much about ricefish but are the red and whites oryzias woworae? I remember looking into those years ago and thought they need much warmer temperatures.
> 
> I guess the benefit of ricefish is you can probably make them pay for themselves.


They’re blue with red fins, think they’re from Sulawesi and need warm water. They’re also surprisingly a lot cheaper than the Japanese rice fish.  

I’ve purchased some yellow tiger medaka eggs online, good reviews so hopefully all goes well. I didn’t realise how small their adult size is so will definitely look at another species to be alongside them still.


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## tigertim (21 Apr 2022)

What a interesting and usual thread, i've just refurbed my old approx 70 cm x 40 cm preformed pond, plants are rooted and growing strongly but still needs another month or so to settle in a bit.
I shall definetly be getting something, so far Rice fish seem to be the better bet and slightly more widespread  in the UK, Paradise fish can be bought off ebay but only in groups of 10 and a few shops online seem to stock them but at varying prices ranging from £5 to £20.

Would love to try some of the Aphanius mentho but no source for them any where in the Uk, not even eggs.


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## shangman (21 Apr 2022)

Conort2 said:


> They’re blue with red fins, think they’re from Sulawesi and need warm water. They’re also surprisingly a lot cheaper than the Japanese rice fish.
> 
> I’ve purchased some yellow tiger medaka eggs online, good reviews so hopefully all goes well. I didn’t realise how small their adult size is so will definitely look at another species to be alongside them still.


V intrigued to see how your raising the eggs goes, there's a few ricefish colours which are quite reasonable online that I'd like to try, but not done it before. My ricefish have started having a lot of eggs so hopefully I see fry naturally soon! 

I was thinking if I kept the paradisefish then I'd keep medaka with them and hope they were ok lol. Even if not, it's easy to set up a small pond bowl outside for the ricefish instead.



mort said:


> I don't know much about ricefish but are the red and whites oryzias woworae? I remember looking into those years ago and thought they need much warmer temperatures.
> 
> I guess the benefit of ricefish is you can probably make them pay for themselves.


No that's a different species, the ricefish we're talking about here are Oryzias Latipes which are fully hardy. They come in all sorts of colours in Japan, aany other than white/cream/platinum are really hard to find here, have to be ordered in and can cost a fortune. I really want some proper orange ones like goldfish but haven't seen any yet.


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## Conort2 (21 Apr 2022)

shangman said:


> intrigued to see how your raising the eggs goes,


By all accounts it’s pretty easy so even if half of them make it I’d have saved a fair amount as I’m sure these colour forms would probably be around 15quid a fish as an adult. 


shangman said:


> really want some proper orange ones like goldfish but haven't seen any yet.


Same, solid reds/oranges seem hard to come by.


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## mort (21 Apr 2022)

I prefer the daisy ricefish tbh, the others look cool but still have that nice guppy vibe (nothing wrong with guppies but not a massive fan of the guppyfication of fish, much prefer wilder types). I think the platinums look the nicest as a single classy colour and would look great in a pond.

The only other thing I know about ricefish is they were the first vertebrate to breed in space and apparently they breed easier up there. Maybe Elon can flood the market and make them cheaper.


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## Garuf (21 Apr 2022)

I would have said endlers, el Tigre are a beautiful wild strain but they won’t survive the winter outside. 

H Formosa used to be a common fish to put in patio ponds with the fish club crowd but they’re very timid. 

The fish shop I used to go to as a mite used to have a stone cow trough full of wild sword tails. Don’t know much about how suitable that was long term but we used to have snow.


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## Garuf (21 Apr 2022)

Conort2 said:


> They’re blue with red fins, think they’re from Sulawesi and need warm water. They’re also surprisingly a lot cheaper than the Japanese rice fish.
> 
> I’ve purchased some yellow tiger medaka eggs online, good reviews so hopefully all goes well. I didn’t realise how small their adult size is so will definitely look at another species to be alongside them still.


From Germany by any chance?


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## tam (21 Apr 2022)

I've just got a 90ltr (30 cm deep) tub and set it in a raised planter. I was contemplating the same question. Trying the ricefish eggs might be interesting. The other option I've thought about is albino white clouds (to make them a bit more visible) or just some male endlers. They could be fairly easily be rounded up in autumn and put in an inside tank without upsetting anything as they are small unfussy fish... although catching them back out of a planted tank in spring might be more difficult. 

As an aside - I've had cherry shrimp outside over the summer that did well too.


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## Stu1407 (21 Apr 2022)

Really interesting thread. Out of curiosity and to be honest because I also quite fancy one how do you filter a patio pond?


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## mort (22 Apr 2022)

Stu1407 said:


> Really interesting thread. Out of curiosity and to be honest because I also quite fancy one how do you filter a patio pond?



If you have enough plants then you don't need filtration but some do add a sponge filter. In general it is small, unmessy, fish that are kept in tubs but if you wanted goldfish or larger bodied species, filtration might be needed.


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## Conort2 (22 Apr 2022)

Garuf said:


> I would have said endlers, el Tigre are a beautiful wild strain but they won’t survive the winter outside.
> 
> H Formosa used to be a common fish to put in patio ponds with the fish club crowd but they’re very timid.
> 
> The fish shop I used to go to as a mite used to have a stone cow trough full of wild sword tails. Don’t know much about how suitable that was long term but we used to have snow.


Thanks for the suggestions.

It doesn’t have to be a species that can live outside all year. It just makes life easier if it does. I do have room to over winter small species indoors.


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## zozo (22 Apr 2022)

Stu1407 said:


> Really interesting thread. Out of curiosity and to be honest because I also quite fancy one how do you filter a patio pond?



I did build this in 2018, a patio pond planted (Helophyte) sump...





More details about the build are here

Tho made a minor change along the way. And it's still working like a charm today going into its 5th season. 








						Journal - Mission Bathtub 2022 Extended Edition
					

Last year it was better late than never, but the winter was rather easy on us this time, fortunately, this year it's a very early start, there was no need to drain the tub and even the fish stayed happily outdoors all winter.   And the plywood filter box still is doing a great job.   Best of all...



					ukaps.org


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## Stu1407 (22 Apr 2022)

Thanks Marcel, I'll have a good look at it.


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## Conort2 (23 Apr 2022)

Garuf said:


> From Germany by any chance?


The UK luckily. I’ll update this thread when I get them and report hatching rates etc. The fry seem to be pretty large and robust straight out the eggs so should be ok to raise if the eggs are viable.


tam said:


> The other option I've thought about is albino white clouds


I was also thinking these as a lot of species will just disappear on the Black liner. 

Was thinking kohaku swordtails would be nice and contrast really well but I don’t really have room to over winter them and swordtails can get pretty aggressive. Not sure if there is a kohaku platy now?


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## aec34 (23 Apr 2022)

Conort2 said:


> I’ll update this thread when I get them and report hatching rates etc.


Watching this keenly! I’m also after medaka but am struggling to find any locally.


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## dean (29 Apr 2022)

What about small native fish 
Sticklebacks or minnows ?
What about Bitterling ? 

Such a small pond should be well insulated if we get a cold winter to stop it freezing 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Conort2 (30 Apr 2022)

dean said:


> What about small native fish
> Sticklebacks or minnows ?
> What about Bitterling ?
> 
> ...


All great suggestions but I think this will get too warm in summer and they’d be a struggle to see against the black liner.

I will definitely have to keep an eye on this, winters have been mild here but I do have the option to stick the fish indoors if necessary.

The medaka eggs arrived the other day, the fry can clearly be seen inside and are wriggling so I don’t think it’ll be long until they hatch. All of them currently look viable which is promising.

Cheers


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## Conort2 (12 Jun 2022)

Little update on this, managed to raise six medaka of the fancier variety. Some yellow tiger Lame and some marbled. Hatch rate was great and the fry fed and seemed healthy but dwindled until I was left with six sizeable fry. The fry were pretty aggressive to each other so not sure if that was a factor or not, anyway six is plenty for this patio pond and they should breed.

I also added some White Cloud Mountain minnows from a local aquatic shop, terrible condition and to be honest I shouldn’t have bought them but I felt sorry for them. Proceeded to lose over half even after a heavy course of medication (something I rarely ever do!). The remaining minnow are hard to find in the pond but they appear to be happy as I’ve started to notice fry, you can just about make one out in the picture. The plant growth has also exploded. Pretty happy with how it’s turned out and it’s attracting lots of insects which is always good. Plus there’s lots of froglets now in the flower beds.
Cheers


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## tam (13 Jun 2022)

I added four albino white clouds to mine (5th keeled over in the bag) the others have done fine though. They do show up against the black tub. However, I do find they stay in the bottom six inches - they don't really come up to the surface - where as in a tank they tend to be more upper level dwellers. Is that an outside tub thing in general or they need more surface cover or has anyone found other species a bit bolder?


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## tigertim (13 Jun 2022)

tam said:


> I added four albino white clouds to mine (5th keeled over in the bag) the others have done fine though. They do show up against the black tub. However, I do find they stay in the bottom six inches - they don't really come up to the surface - where as in a tank they tend to be more upper level dwellers. Is that an outside tub thing in general or they need more surface cover or has anyone found other species a bit bolder?


Same with my WCM in a small outside pond, don't really see them much tbh except the odd bit of darting about, i also have 3 Paradise fish in there as well, they bask at the top when the suns out, but other than that they don't do a lot either and are a drab grey/blue tinge colour not like the pictures you see online.


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## Conort2 (13 Jun 2022)

tam said:


> I added four albino white clouds to mine (5th keeled over in the bag) the others have done fine though. They do show up against the black tub. However, I do find they stay in the bottom six inches - they don't really come up to the surface - where as in a tank they tend to be more upper level dwellers. Is that an outside tub thing in general or they need more surface cover or has anyone found other species a bit bolder?


That’s exactly what mine do, I bought five normal and five gold. Think Ive got two gold left and three maybe four normal. Impossible to see them now with the green water.

 I’m happy I added the medaka, they’re fearless and spend most of their time up near the surface. They’re starting to develop some decent colour now so can’t wait to see them full grown. I’d love to get some proper red medaka, has anyone seen any on their travels?


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## Garuf (13 Jun 2022)

Conort2 said:


> That’s exactly what mine do, I bought five normal and five gold. Think Ive got two gold left and three maybe four normal. Impossible to see them now with the green water.
> 
> I’m happy I added the medaka, they’re fearless and spend most of their time up near the surface. They’re starting to develop some decent colour now so can’t wait to see them full grown. I’d love to get some proper red medaka, has anyone seen any on their travels?


You mean like a goldfish? 
If so I’ve seen what in the right light could be called red but is more like a dark orange it was called “Rot Flamme” on the label. 

I really like the black lamé ones but here we only get the white ones.


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## Conort2 (13 Jun 2022)

Garuf said:


> You mean like a goldfish?
> If so I’ve seen what in the right light could be called red but is more like a dark orange it was called “Rot Flamme” on the label.


That’s the one, I want something that really stands out against the dark liner. There is also a variety that look like mini tancho but I imagine the chance of getting g those in the uk is close to impossible. 

Cheers


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## tam (14 Jun 2022)

Conort2 said:


> I’m happy I added the medaka, they’re fearless and spend most of their time up near the surface. They’re starting to develop some decent colour now so can’t wait to see them full grown. I’d love to get some proper red medaka, has anyone seen any on their travels?


That's interesting. Maybe that's the way to go then. I think the kids would really like some slightly easier to spot fish. I need to move a tank around and then maybe have a go at the eggs as I haven't seen them available in any LFS. It is a shame there doesn't seem to be the colour options available here.

Has anyone tried male endlers/guppies - I thought that might be the other option just for summer.


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## aec34 (14 Jun 2022)

This feels like a daft question given tubs are oustside, but do people use rainwater or tap to fill/top up their tubs? I schlepped up and down the garden to fill mine from the water butts and now am wondering if this decision may affect fish options?


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## Conort2 (14 Jun 2022)

aec34 said:


> This feels like a daft question given tubs are oustside, but do people use rainwater or tap to fill/top up their tubs? I schlepped up and down the garden to fill mine from the water butts and now am wondering if this decision may affect fish options?


Tap to fill and then RO to top up as we haven’t had much rain recently.

It shouldn’t affect your options, what was you planning on keeping? Add some gh booster if you’re worried.


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## aec34 (14 Jun 2022)

Nothing fancy @Conort2 - most likely medaka. Just occurred to me that rain water means soft/low calcium etc and totally not what I’m used to in my indoor tanks.


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## Phill Austen (1 Aug 2022)

This situation is sub-optimal


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## ALTS98 (28 Aug 2022)

The Fin Room located in Motherwell has currently/recently had Medaka Ricefish and I'm not sure if the owner keeps them outdoors herself, I know some of her customers do. They also post so handy if your not local.


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