# Surface Scum - Keeps Coming Back



## Superman

So over the past two weeks, a sort of oily scum has formed on the surface of the water. When it breaks up it doesn't go back as it's like rather solid.

The other night I removed all (or nearly all) of it by placing paper towels on the surface.

However, today it's returned after 3 days.

Its so solid that it keeps my CO2 bubbles underneath it.
Its not green, it doesn't really have a "colour"

Any ideas?

Pointing the filter outlet up more to cause more ripple doesn't solve it.


----------



## Dacious

Hi Superman, 

Firstly do you use a yeast based CO2 system? This could be the cause perhaps. Or do you think it is something that you have fed the fish??

Hope this helps


----------



## JamesC

Sounds like iron bacteria. In the wild it's normally a reddish brown but in an aquarium it is a whitish colour. When broken with your finger it doesn't flow back together again. Only way I've found to clear it is through surface agitation or skimming. If you read German then this site has a very good article about surface films including pictures of iron bacteria (pictures at the bottom of the page) - http://www.aquamax.de/HG27UG02.htm.

James


----------



## LondonDragon

Strange that, your Juwel filter should really clear this too as it takes in water from the surface, I had a similar problem sometime ago and the internal filter took care of it in no time, after a good clean to unblock the flow.
Make sure you replace the fine white sponge every week to prevent slowing down the flow, don't buy the original Juwel filter pads, just go on ebay, for the price of a couple of boxes you will get enough filter pads to last you 2/3 years thats how long ago I got mine and still have plent left lol


----------



## Superman

Thanks for the replies. 
I use pressurised co2 system and when watching my jewel internal doesn't seem to pull in this scum. 
I have really increased the irragation tonight and will see what it's like in the morning. 
Might have to invest in a skimmer. 
Any idea where these things come from?


----------



## JamesM

Same problem here mate, so you're not alone. I'm putting it down to bad circulation as my plant mass has increased from growth. My filter has also slowed a little since adding some sintered glass media.. Time for a bigger filter I think


----------



## LondonDragon

Powerhead might also help, mine creates a nice surface movement, if you want I can try and capture a video.


----------



## Superman

thanks James. That's exactly what mine looks like but I couldn't get a good enough photo to show what it was like.  My ordered external with 1,500lph from AE should be here in a weeks or so time. Might put my extra power head on until that arrives. Need to find another plug!


----------



## JamesM

Good stuff... what filter are you running atm?

I'm going to add another EX700 as soon as I get a chance...

James, many thanks for that link, google translator may not be the best, but its enough to know the problem is an algae and skimmers wont help. The paper towel method and lots of water changes are the way to go


----------



## Superman

JAmesM said:
			
		

> Good stuff... what filter are you running atm?
> 
> I'm going to add another EX700 as soon as I get a chance...
> 
> James, many thanks for that link, google translator may not be the best, but its enough to know the problem is an algae and skimmers wont help. The paper towel method and lots of water changes are the way to go


Only running the juwel internal at the min, the JBL CristalProfi e1500 is on it's way. 
Yay water changes!


----------



## altaaffe

I've had this in the past as well, I've introduced an air pump & coarse air stone which comes on 2 hours after lights off for a few hours and have had no problems since.  My CO2 is off at this time via a solenoid and comes on again an hour before lights on.


----------



## JamesM

I've added my second EX700 from my 4ft low tech community tank..Amazing difference already.

The big community tank still has an EX1200 running, and I'll add a Fluval 4+ internal tomorrow... thought I'd seen the back of that damn thing


----------



## nickyc

Had this problem on our marine tank (so I'm not sure the algae would be the same type?) but having tried the paper towel thing and big water changes for ages, we tried the airstone.  It did work like a miracle overnight!  No problems since


----------



## spaldingaquatics

I've got the same on my 40l, do you have to run the airstone everyday to stop it forming again? or did just one night stop it completely?


----------



## LondonDragon

spaldingaquatics said:
			
		

> I've got the same on my 40l, do you have to run the airstone everyday to stop it forming again? or did just one night stop it completely?


I run an airstone overnight for a few hours, gives the fish a break too ,


----------



## altaaffe

LondonDragon said:
			
		

> I run an airstone overnight for a few hours, gives the fish a break too ,



Same for me, it's on a timer for every night.  Personal preference, but I prefer to ensure that the water remains fully oxygenated for the fish and drives off the excess CO2 when the lights are off.


----------



## spaldingaquatics

I haven't run an airstone yet because it's a plant only tank so I wasn't too worried about clearing excess CO2, but if it means that it'll clear the film off the surface then there's no harm in an hour once the lights have gone out.  

 I'll try it tonight, I just didn't know if I'd have to do it every night to keep the film away, I was trying to get away without having another plug, timer ect running.


----------



## GreenNeedle

This is a problem for anyone that runs CO2!!!.  Bubbles are 'sticky' and  as they rise to the surface all sorts of stuff sticks to them.

Poorer circulation will mean you get more and quicker.  Good circulation will still get it though.

Most people who had tanks pre CO2 will probably remember that it didn't occur very often before!!

Andy


----------



## nickyc

There's no CO2 going into the marine tank and I've had the problem far worse in that one than the planted tanks have ever been!  I run the airstone on [yet another] timer!


----------



## ceg4048

Any time you see surface scum, whether it be oily, white, brown or green it means that your plants are trying to communicate with you. What they are saying is that they are not happy with you. This can occur just as easily in a non-injected tank. Plants naturally secrete carbohydrates and lipids into the water column as part of their natural metabolic processes. This is organic waste, and the higher the light/CO2 the more waste is produced. If there was no surface movement at all you would see some buildup. If nutrient uptake is poor or inefficient the plants become stressed and unhealthy. When this occurs ejection of lipids and organic waste becomes uncontrolled (think diarrhea or vomiting). Lipids are the basic building block of fats and oils so release of this product results in the oily film. Ejected carbohydrate and some proteins cause the other types of debris such as the brown detritus-looking floating particles. Bacteria often feed on this flotsam/jetsam since it is high in carbon. This film then becomes it's own floating world.

High filtration and/or high circulation is important - not just for breaking up the surface film but for distributing nutrients and CO2.

You need to feed your plants more than you are feeding them now. You also need to inject more CO2 than you are injecting now. Then the plants will stop bleeding and the rate of organic waste ejection will be lowered to reasonable levels. Levels that do not required stopgap methods such as airstones or turbofans or whatever.  In the scene below I can easily induce some type of surface film merely by lowering either CO2 or nutrients or both.




Cheers,


----------



## LondonDragon

Clive also the problem is the inificiency of the Juwel internals when it comes to planted tanks. When Clark gets the new filter then I assume he will have a lot less issues than he is having now, Juwel are great if you just want to keep some fish as I have found out with my own tank.
All I got left that came with my Juwel is the glass lol I did keep the internal going just for backup in the event my external broke while I was away.


----------



## Superman

Thanks for the explanation ceg.


----------



## JamesM

Cheers Clive 

My problems started when I added sintered glass media to replace the crappy 'bio balls' in the Tetratec EX700. Flow was reduced instantly. I even spent 20 minutes arranging the media for best possible flow 

How much media can I remove from each filter to make flow even better, yet keep a good balance of all the good stuff needed to keep things healthy?

Right now, I have 4 trays on each filter. The bottom trays have a layer of ceramic rings, topped with a foam pad. Tray 2 has a layer of sintered glass, topped with foam, tray 3 has two layers of foam, and tray 4 has one later of foam (and room for carbon).

Surely Shirley, I can room some without any side effects?


----------



## ceg4048

James, if you have the sintered glass you can ditch most or all of the foam. Try that first.

Cheers,


----------



## LondonDragon

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> James, if you have the sintered glass you can ditch most or all of the foam. Try that first.
> Cheers,


Yeah thats a lot of foam, on my external only have a layer of foam and the two trays are full of two types of ceramic media.


----------



## JamesM

Good stuff - I just followed the setup instructions, should have known they'd be overkill


----------



## GreenNeedle

I'm sticking to the bubbles theory.  they are sticky and gather debris on the way up.  To the poster after me who doesn't run CO2.  You run an airstone on timer.  airstones produce bubbles.

Think I read about this on the barrreport so surprised I'm the only one that agrees with it 

I don't agree with the CO2+nutrient theory as my tank is only slow growers (crypts, ferns, anubias) and I dose JamesCs recipe for PMDD+PO4. I use the same amount even though my tank is smaller and I have 25% of his light.  I use pressurised and EasyCarbo.  DC is light green.  bubbles move the length of the tank and stick to every plant as shown in pic.






Andy


----------



## JamesM

Extra filtration is working perfectly - and removing most of the foam from each filter has transformed them. Cheers Clive!

Just noticed this Azoo Protein remover on AE though... http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/index.p ... ts_id=2104

I have no idea if it will affect ferts or plants though... and does it remove the problem, or just mask it?


----------



## ceg4048

JAmesM said:
			
		

> Just noticed this Azoo Protein remover on AE though... http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/index.p ... ts_id=2104
> 
> I have no idea if it will affect ferts or plants though... and does it remove the problem, or just mask it?


 
Well, think about it for a second. Where are the proteins coming from? If that product is a fertilizer then it would help. If it's just some kind of floculent then it's masking the problem. I don't use any protein remover nor do I use any protein skimmer (which is completely over the top) or mechanical device other than strong filtration.

As you can see from the photo I don't have film or debris. Haven't had any type of film or debris in almost a decade, unless I don't dose properly. I do remember long ago struggling with white film and having to use terry cloth towels every few days on the surface to remove the film. Boy, was that a drag.  Terry cloth towels and kitchen rolls were a feature product of water change day. This problem went away when I added more nutrients/CO2 and/or improved flow. No other product was necessary.

Here is another surface snapshot I pulled out of the archive. This is after I got a hot tip about Fluval spraybars from SuperColey1 so I was able to ditch those horrible green Eheim ones (cheers Andy!  ). As you can see the surface is pristine. Now, if I go looking for a film, or if I peer from the top at just the right angle then yes, I can just see a very thin film. There is always a protein ejection but it is controllable. My view is that if you feed your plants then all of these Looney Tune problems will go away. If you are already feeding high nutrients and and are at your fishes limit for CO2 and are still getting the film then that means you need more flow.





Cheers,


----------



## Superman

It's water change day tomorrow so plan to increase my dosing by 50%.
The plants have grown a lot in the last 3 weeks of dosing dry ferts.
I must say I've really been impressed with the difference shown.

Fingers crossed my external will arrive soon.


----------



## George Farmer

Surface scum is a another reason I like to 'massively overfilter', usually 10-20x turnover, with plenty of surface agitation.

Sure, CO2 consumption is relatively high, but the trade-offs are well worth it.  Good O2, crystal clear water, good nutrient and CO2 distribution, minimal detritus, minimal/no algae issues and no surface scum.

Good external filters aren't expensive to buy or run these days.  Really, there's little excuse...


----------



## GreenNeedle

I've always tended to have some of my Lily pipe out of the water as I like to pull O in as well as inject CO2.  Like George I don't think the price of CO2 warrants being too worried about losing some.

Also like George I think surface agitation doesn't just stop a film from forming but also sems to improve the clarity by a huge amount down below.  Unlike George I only have the 5x filtration so I assume it is mainly down to the surface movement rather than the extra media although that surely helps a little too.

Were I to lower the lily again I would bet the scum would form very quickly even though I am overdosing with low light and using an extra powerhead to boost the circulation.

Andy


----------



## Superman

I had done my water change and everything was fab. Scum removed and after a day it wasn't there.
Then I fed my fish, it returned within a few minutes and hasn't gone away.
So I'm wondering if it's the food?

I've increased my ferts but guess that'll take some time to take effect.

Just strange that the food caused the scum/film to come back.


----------



## ceg4048

It will take a couple weeks. There are no magic wands. Water changes just cleans out whats in the tank at the moment but it doesn't halt production.

Cheers,


----------



## spaldingaquatics

Superman said:
			
		

> I had done my water change and everything was fab. Scum removed and after a day it wasn't there.
> Then I fed my fish, it returned within a few minutes and hasn't gone away.
> So I'm wondering if it's the food?
> 
> I've increased my ferts but guess that'll take some time to take effect.
> 
> Just strange that the food caused the scum/film to come back.



Sorry if you've already said but do you have sand as a substrate?


----------



## Superman

spaldingaquatics said:
			
		

> Sorry if you've already said but do you have sand as a substrate?


Its gravel.


----------



## Superman

This is slowly coming back, not as bad as before.
I had a good look at the large display aquariums at AquaJardin and notice they had some of the same as me. Although theirs gets pushed around more than mine. Mine gets clogged up at the front.
To try and combat it, I've added my Koralia (spel!) nano pump on one side, and aim to get a 2nd to go in the opposite corner.


----------



## George Farmer

I get it in my current 4 footer.  I've learnt to live with it.  It does no harm as far as I can tell.


----------



## Superman

Agree George, reading comments from others on here.
It's just unsightly.
To make sure it doesn't start up again, I found you need to keep on top of everything.


----------



## roughyed

I get it in my smaller tank but its only started after I started using Easycarbo and profita.


----------



## John Starkey

Hi Clarke,i used to have this problem big time,as you know i have lots of fish in my setup so i like to think they all get enough to eat,i used to feed twice a day and a fair helping to boot,now i only feed my fish every other day and only once on that day,i now dont have any surface scum at all,i think the fish are healthier,the tank looks crisper,and every thing gets eaten on feed day,also less fish poo is good    ,regards john


----------



## mick555

i had the problem with my 4ft tank so at the opposite end to the spray bar i have an air stone which comes on every 4 hours for about 20 minutes and it went within a day. but i recently stripped out my 2and a half foot tank put plants and decor and pressurised co2 and what has happened ive now got it in this tank. i am not going to add an air stone as i believe the tank isnt long enough so at the moment i am just skimming it off with a jug and trying differant things. pain in the wotsit though. will keep you updated.


----------



## Superman

I added a Koralia last week to my tank (I think it's a nano, I'll check) to increase the water circulation (can't do any harm) and also to increase the surface movement.
I was away for the weekend and came back to a rather large amount of condensation on the windows, I must of gone OTT with the surface movement - but hey! no scum.


----------



## mick555

YES, ive got the answer. purchased an eheim surface skimmer for Â£18 from a company in edinburgh off of ebay. fitted it and within 3 minutes all oily scum has gone and never came back. Again a truly wonderful piece of german engineering from those people at eheim. brilliant piece of kit.


----------



## jay

I've been plagued by this for a while too.
I've sligtly increased surface agitation and upped trace dosing.
All gone


----------



## Verminator

Has anyone actually narrowed it down to what causes it? Other than reading someone says its an algae does anyone know what encourages it to form, and also what discourages it?

I've had this on and off over the last 12 months, and the only thing i've found to get rid of it was to add a power head to disturb the water surface. In a few hours the oily/cloudy surface disapates and i'm left with clear water. But if i was to take out the powerhead, as i have done a few times, the same symtoms are back within a few days. I've rashoned my feeding to less to see if this helps but nothing so far. I might up my filter, this current internal for my Juwel Rio 180 is quite poor i think. May opt for an external Eheim or Fluval 305. (always over filter   )


----------



## ceg4048

See post number 20 on the bottom of page 2 of the thread.

Cheers,


----------



## Verminator

I knew my plant care at the moment is poor, but this fits the bill exactly. Thanks. If you don't mind i'm going to copy and paste what you put in that post and save it to my computer as a reference in future if i have further difficulties. It makes for a great little reminder. Thanks again.


----------



## chilled84

superb exsplanation. Just orderd myself some tpn.


----------



## CeeJay

Hi all


			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> See post number 20 on the bottom of page 2 of the thread.


I did, a while back, as I had the same problem.
I made adjustment to my dosing and CO2 delivery and now my water surface is like a mirror  
Took me a few weeks to get it right though   probably due to my inexperience.
But I've now learnt from it and this one is well and truly stored in the old memory bank   .

Chris


----------

