# leggy stem plants



## paulsouthuk (18 Nov 2012)

Help needed. I have a planted tank 30x24x18 I have recently planted a stem plant limonfolia sessiflora which seems healthy but leggy. I have a CO2 drop checker which shows correct levels of CO2. The tank is lit by a 22 inch 24w plant pro and a 22 inch 24w freshwater pro. I use EI dosing which I'm modifyng at the moment learning the correct amounts to add. Everything looks ok, I have an amazon sword Kleine bar which seems very happy. The tank is filtered via an aquamanta 200. Do i have enough light? Do I have enough CO2? The drop checker has 2 bulbs with an indicator and the actual measure. Any help appreciated. 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/pkendatank/


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## paulsouthuk (18 Nov 2012)

oh and my CO2 is being injected via a glass diffuser in the tank with a small pump circulating the flow of bubbles. I have read threads saying that their tanks are full of bubbles mine has a few but i wouldn't say full. Would it be beneficial to go to a UP inline diffuser for better distribution of CO2 i do have riccia in the tank but it isn't doing well  and has no green on it at all. I'm just trying to learn as much as I can. Any tips would be very much appreciated.


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## mafoo (19 Nov 2012)

Its probably light. You'll find the plants get bushier the closer they get to the light after a while. Try adding some reflectors if you don't already have them, they've worked wonders in my 2x18w setup. Also remember that the edge of the tank gets less light than the middle.I would chop them in half and replant the stems, at least that way it looks denser 

Another thing that could casuse that is having too short a light period in the day.

I've got some Myriophyllum and eustralis in my tank thats doing fairly well. The eustralis grows incredibly quickly and you'd proabbly need to cut it and replant it every few weeks. and has rather fetching range of colours on the same plant depending on the light level. Green for low light through to copper and then pink for the higher light levels.


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## paulsouthuk (19 Nov 2012)

thanks for the reply. i do have reflectors and also a 1000nd led tile. I have Myriophyllum too which is doing well next to the limonfolia. I have cut the limonfolia in half already and replanted. Just wish I could get it to be more compact. I reckon the tank holds 120 litres after decor bog wood etc which is 26 gallons without the tile I think I have 1.8 watts per gallon. And the lights are on for a period of 9 hours a day. Do i need to add more T5 tubes?


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## paulsouthuk (19 Nov 2012)

which eustralis have you got thats a beautiful plant. I thought that was quite difficult to grow. Do you EI dose?


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## tim (19 Nov 2012)

I would work on co2 levels and flow/distribution of flow round the tank your filter should be rated 1200 litres per hour for your size tank maybe a power head could help flow adding more light before having other factors spot on will lead to problems mate   also maybe easier to help if you post pics of problem plants etc


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## John S (19 Nov 2012)

tim said:
			
		

> I would work on co2 levels and flow/distribution of flow round the tank your filter should be rated 1200 litres per hour for your size tank maybe a power head could help flow adding more light before having other factors spot on will lead to problems mate   also maybe easier to help if you post pics of problem plants etc



Yep. To quote Clive "Poor CO2 and poor flow around the plant makes it strung out and leggy in order to reach the surface more quickly to find CO2. People see this behavior and they automatically think "Oh I need more light" which is exactly the wrong thing to do."


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## paulsouthuk (19 Nov 2012)

I will invest in an inline diffuser to increase CO2 distribution. I have a new wave pump in the tnk circulating water. Is it worth going to the next size up external filter. My flow at moment is a max of 800lph which i now think is too low. I have the spraybar across the back of the tank pushing water down the front glass. I did put photo link on the original message showing leggy limonfolia. Thanks for your comments.


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## ceg4048 (19 Nov 2012)

Hello,
        I completely agree with tim. The absolute worst action you can take right now is to add more light. Legginess has nothing to do with light and has everything to do with flow. The dropchecker cannot really tell you how much is the right amount of CO2 because the right amount of CO2 is completely dependent on the other factors in the tank such as light and flow/distribution. The DC gives you an objective indication only. The plants themselves tell you what is right or wrong. Have a read of the thread viewtopic.php?f=21&t=24040 

Cheers,


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## paulsouthuk (19 Nov 2012)

Thankyou all for your comments I will work on my flow and get an inline diffuser. Think I'll get a bigger external filter which will improve matters. This week after a 50% water change the plants in my tank all started to produce tiny bubbles all except the riccia which I think is dead. After a while it stopped, I'd love to know what caused it I'm getting a feeling it was because the ro water was cold and so I got more CO2 in the cooler water. What temp should I run my tank?


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## mafoo (19 Nov 2012)

paulsouthuk said:
			
		

> which eustralis have you got thats a beautiful plant. I thought that was quite difficult to grow. Do you EI dose?



I've got a DIY Yeast CO2 reactor with a ceramic fluval diffuser positioned underneath the spray bar, and i dose with Ferepol every now and then.

It took a while for the plant to get to that stage, lots of cutting it in half and replanting.


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## Iain Sutherland (19 Nov 2012)

As already stated this is co2 related not light, i made the same mistake on my first tank and added more light which only induced bba and the leggy plants died off.



			
				paulsouthuk said:
			
		

> Thankyou all for your comments I will work on my flow and get an inline diffuser. Think I'll get a bigger external filter which will improve matters. This week after a 50% water change the plants in my tank all started to produce tiny bubbles all except the riccia which I think is dead. After a while it stopped, I'd love to know what caused it I'm getting a feeling it was because the ro water was cold and so I got more CO2 in the cooler water. What temp should I run my tank?



This often happens after a waterchange, 'artificial pearling' if you like.  Its happens due to high concentrations of gases in the new water.  Pearling happens when the plants co2 needs are met in fairly high light so photosynethesis happens faster meaning the plants produce higher quantities of O2 which gathers on the leaves as its expelled. (very unscientific explanation   ) 
laters


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## REDSTEVEO (19 Nov 2012)

If you go down the atomiser route be sure to read this thread if you haven't already!

Steve

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=16584


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## paulsouthuk (19 Nov 2012)

thank you for the advise guys. I have a JBL 500g bottle and regulator which runs at a maximum of 1.5bar don't really know what to do now. Anyone got ides on better reactors so that i can get a better CO2 distribution. How can they sell the up atomisers if they are so problematic?


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## tim (19 Nov 2012)

may solve your issues  with the filter upgrade mate i have a cristalprofi 700 running on a 12ltr tank not quite at full power but hey more flow the better IMO easerthegeezer made a diy acrylic reactor check his journal or pm him he may be able to give you some more info might be worth asking if the in line diffusers old style need same working pressure as the atomizers havent used either only the in tank ones atomizer was a PITA needed nearly 3 bar to get mist gave up in the end and stuck to diffusers


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## paulsouthuk (19 Nov 2012)

Thanks Tim. I'll do exactly that. I really don't understand how I can monitor CO2 have a drop checker that tells me all is ok but obviously CO2 is a bit of a black art. I'll get more flow and see how the plants develop. Thank you for all the advise, just when you think you understand stuff you realise that you know nothing.


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## tim (19 Nov 2012)

ive been trying to get my head round it all for over a year sometimes seems the more i think i learn the worse it gets   i have a 60 ltr ive recently gone back to using just a 15w t8 over growth is very slow but to be honest algae is not an issue maintainence is weekly waterchange and ceramic diffuser is plenty for co2 with lighting mate less really is more unless you can provide all the other requirements


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## Ady34 (19 Nov 2012)

paulsouthuk said:
			
		

> Help needed. I have a planted tank 30x24x18 I have recently planted a stem plant limonfolia sessiflora which seems healthy but leggy. I have a CO2 drop checker which shows correct levels of CO2. The tank is lit by a 22 inch 24w plant pro and a 22 inch 24w freshwater pro. I use EI dosing which I'm modifyng at the moment learning the correct amounts to add. Everything looks ok, I have an amazon sword Kleine bar which seems very happy. The tank is filtered via an aquamanta 200. Do i have enough light? Do I have enough CO2? The drop checker has 2 bulbs with an indicator and the actual measure. Any help appreciated.
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/pkendatank/





			
				paulsouthuk said:
			
		

> Thanks Tim. I'll do exactly that. I really don't understand how I can monitor CO2 have a drop checker that tells me all is ok but obviously CO2 is a bit of a black art. I'll get more flow and see how the plants develop. Thank you for all the advise, just when you think you understand stuff you realise that you know nothing.



Hi Paul,
you seem to have a high light set up given your tank size and lighting combination. Your drop checker tells you a ball park level of c02 as an indicator. Flow and distribution can have a marked effect on the colour your solution goes so maybe try moving the drop checker around the tank to various positions over the course of a few days to see if there is any noticable difference. If not then its likely you have good distribution to all areas of your tank. Drop checkers can give false readings if sited near to the c02 diffuser for example, as c02 bubbles/mist can directly access the vial and show a high concentration of co2 when in actual fact the rest of the tank has much less.
If your happy that your c02 is at the 30ppm, then your only option is to reduce your lighting. It can be that in high light set ups, the required level of c02 is actually much higher than a lime green drop checker colour, and indeed than your fish/shrimps can tolerate. This is due to the lighting being the driving factor behind how fast your plants are trying to grow. High light =  fast growth, which inturn requires much greater concentrations of c02 and nutrients. To slow the process down and allow our flora to thrive and fauna to be comfortable the only solution is to get the lighting balanced with the c02. As said already,  plants are 'leggy' due to lack of c02, if your levels of c02 are at 30ppm (lime green dc), and your having this isssue you need to reduce the demand from the plants by reducing lighting intensity. This can be achieved by simply raising the lighting unit higher above the water surface, removing one of the tubes, or even diffusing the light with a barrier, maybe some floating plants.
Hope this makes sense of it for you  :? .
Cheerio,
Ady


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## Iain Sutherland (19 Nov 2012)

We all feel or felt like that tim, even amano said he had 10 yrs of tanks with issues but its the only way to learn and improve.   Once you have solved a problem then you wont worry when you see that problem again as you know how to deal with it but there is always another problem just waiting to kick your ass though if you get complacent   

Ady is spot on, to give you an example i simply couldnt get enough co2 in and around my large tank no matter what i tried, then i realised that i was picking the wrong fight.  So left the co2 where i felt it was stable, consistent and safe for the fauna and raised the light, the light unit is currently 165cm from the substrate.
Using EI means you can pretty much forget about ferts, raise the light or dim it really quite low so you can worry less about that which means all of your focus will be co2, flow and distribution get these right and then you will start to understand how it all fits together.  Also only fiddle with your co2 or flow one at a time and only once (maybe twice) a week so you can see what effect it has, impatience is what algae feed on!!
Good luck


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## tim (19 Nov 2012)

easerthegeezer said:
			
		

> We all feel or felt like that tim, even amano said he had 10 yrs of tanks with issues but its the only way to learn and improve.   Once you have solved a problem then you wont worry when you see that problem again as you know how to deal with it but there is always another problem just waiting to kick your ass though if you get complacent
> 
> Ady is spot on, to give you an example i simply couldnt get enough co2 in and around my large tank no matter what i tried, then i realised that i was picking the wrong fight.  So left the co2 where i felt it was stable, consistent and safe for the fauna and raised the light, the light unit is currently 165cm from the substrate.
> Using EI means you can pretty much forget about ferts, raise the light or dim it really quite low so you can worry less about that which means all of your focus will be co2, flow and distribution get these right and then you will start to understand how it all fits together.  Also only fiddle with your co2 or flow one at a time and only once (maybe twice) a week so you can see what effect it has, impatience is what algae feed on!!
> Good luck


ah see i've learnt something (the hard way   ) constant fiddling causes bba top advice guys


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## Iain Sutherland (19 Nov 2012)

glad i could help Tim.  BBA has been my aquascaping partner for a long time now and it still hides in the background waiting for an opportunity. I am now working up a theory which seems to be proving right that even something as inconspicuous as not topping up my tank for 2 or 3 days will in induce BBA to jump out from behind the curtain, which im assuming is because there is greater surface agitation so more off gassing, as such fluctuating co2.  
I already realised the hard way that turning up my pump which runs the reactor will also induce it, again only anecdotal  but think the higher flow rate reduced the dissolution of the co2 in the reactor as more gets pushed through as bubbles.  It seems obvious now but took me a week of head scratching to remember what i had done that may have caused it, then tried it again... bingo BBA!

Anyway apologies for going off topic for a minute Paul.


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## paulsouthuk (19 Nov 2012)

I think I see. The less light the less CO2 demand and nutrient demand. The less the algae and the better the plants grow. I have a hood over the tank so could only raise the tubes by an inch or two really. Would the plants really be ok with only one T5 tube? Right desicion made I have tons of algae so I will create more flow and i'll take a reflector off one tube and see how we go. I'm really looking for a panacea but beginning to realise all i need to do is think what the plants need.


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## Iain Sutherland (19 Nov 2012)

why not remove both reflectors?  it will go a long way to making your life easier.  My 300ltr runs just  2 x 24w t5's for 7 hours a day only supplemented by 1x 150w halide for 3 hours and really high up, youll be surprised how little light plants need once they have enough co2 and ferts.
If you consider the environment they come from, a lot of the plants we use are shaded for a lot of the day with just a few hours of direct light when the sun is high in the sky.

Your decision is right though, look after the plants and algae will usually subside.


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## paulsouthuk (19 Nov 2012)

took off the reflectors and didn't see much difference. removed the plant pro now. Will use a photo period of 8 hours and use my 1000nd tile to supplement for a couple of hours. I'm dosing with EI macro NPK and micro. I test nitrate phosphate and iron. Will I see the uptake with my hagen test kit. I followed instructions and overdosed so I've put the tank on a break from dosing until the levels come down. I do 50% water change with ro water every week. I dream of growing riccia fluitans will it be ok with low light?


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## Stitch (20 Nov 2012)

This has turned into a great thread with plenty of good information.

Also nice link to the Atomiser thread as well.

Cheers.

Paul - I'm pretty much in the same situation as you right now and learning a lot from here.

From what i've read and been told, don't try to think of it as "low light". Think of it as "enough light". The main important items to get right first are co2, ferts and flow. Until these are right light should be at a minimum (4 to 6 hours a day, only run half the bulbs and no refections etc).

Lighting is the last thing to increase. Once you have the co2, ferts and flow going well, with no algae, then it's time to slowly increase the lights.

This is where I get a bit stuck myself (as i'm not quite there yet ) but I believe increasing the lights at this point will also increase demand for the other 3 so you'll have to keep an eye on that. ie: More light = more CO2. In addition to this I think plant mass plays a part too, so more plants = more co2 / ferts etc. (although if you're EI dosing then don't worry about the ferts).

Anyway, one thing I have found out is to do things very slowly. A big jump in co2, ferts, flow or lights at this point could send you back to square 1.

Hope I don't get shot down now for bad information.


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## tim (20 Nov 2012)

paulsouthuk said:
			
		

> took off the reflectors and didn't see much difference. removed the plant pro now. Will use a photo period of 8 hours and use my 1000nd tile to supplement for a couple of hours. I'm dosing with EI macro NPK and micro. I test nitrate phosphate and iron. Will I see the uptake with my hagen test kit. I followed instructions and overdosed so I've put the tank on a break from dosing until the levels come down. I do 50% water change with ro water every week. I dream of growing riccia fluitans will it be ok with low light?


I wouldn't cut dosing mate your plants will eventually have no food left cutting lights is good improve flow and co2 levels EI is there to provide an excess so ferts are one less thing to worry about they certainly won't cause algae remove as much algae as possible then carry out a water change more than once a week if you can algae will subside eventually good luck with it all mate


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## ceg4048 (20 Nov 2012)

paulsouthuk said:
			
		

> I test nitrate phosphate and iron. Will I see the uptake with my hagen test kit. I followed instructions and overdosed so I've put the tank on a break from dosing until the levels come down. I do 50% water change with ro water every week. I dream of growing riccia fluitans will it be ok with low light?


This is the second worst thing you can do in a planted tank. You need to stop testing. It is a waste of time will not help you to grow Riccia any better. You also do not need to use RO water because that isn't any better for plants than plain old tap water.

Cheers,


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## paulsouthuk (20 Nov 2012)

hi ceg I live in a hard water area notorious for heavy metals in the tap water. I keep amano shrimp and quite a few tropical fish in the planted tank. Thats why I use ro. I do agree with the testing though. I've had a feeling for a while that they aren't that acurate. Thank you all for the info. I'm going to see how the lower light increased flow sorts things out over the next few weeks.


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## paulsouthuk (20 Nov 2012)

I can't grow riccia at all. it goes fluffy then brown and then white. Hopefully the better flow will sort that out and supply more CO2 to the riccia.


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## dw1305 (20 Nov 2012)

Hi all,


> I live in a hard water area notorious for heavy metals in the tap water


 You can ignore any heavy metals if your water is hard, any spare metal ions (Cu++, Zn++, Pb++) will form insoluble carbonates with the HCO3- ions in the water, even if you live in Shipham you are fairly safe. Are you using well water? if do you are OK in the UK, but you might have high arsenic (As)  etc levels if you live in the USA. Actually you can ignore heavy metal ions if you use tap water anywhere in the UK, as the EU limits are really tight now and the tap water has ortho-phosphates (PO4-) added to precipitate out any metal ions as the similarly insoluble Pb etc phosphate complexes. 


> I can't grow riccia at all.


 Let it float, it is practically ineradicable floating and doesn't care about  pH levels, hardness or nutrients. I grow it, I'll rephrase that, it grows in all my tanks, all low tech, low fertiliser, no CO2. 

cheers Darrel


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