# Fluval Stratum & Caribsea Eco-Complete?



## FISHnLAB (28 Sep 2022)

Hi guys, I am currently planning my first large planted community tank(49.1 gallon) and am trying to decide on Substrate. I am currently thinking of a mix of Fluval Stratum and Caribsea Eco-Complete. What do you think? Also, I am undecided on whether I should go with Eco-Complete as a base layer and Stratum on top as a cap or the other way around. With Eco-Complete being a heavier lava rock based substrate it seams best as a base layer or filler. Mixing the two homogeneously is also an option giving the best of both worlds maybe. What do you guys think? Thanks.

PS: I plan to add 24 Hour Aquarist APT Jazz root tabs from the get go to whatever I chose.


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## Hufsa (28 Sep 2022)

Lava gravel or "any name product that is like lava gravel" should be used only as a filler in my opinion. Manufacturers of these sometimes like to state that these contain _magnificent_ amounts of minerals, all your plants could hope and dream about. They like to conveniently gloss over the fact that most of these minerals will be insoluble forms and almost entirely useless to your plants.

So if you have a big tank or a big slope fill some of it with some cheap lava gravel, dont spend extra for filler that says it does something for plants.
Then cap it with the soil of your choice, make sure you get the capping layer deep enough and allow for a little bit of settling over time, otherwise you'll get a headache with replanting later down the road.
If your budget is unlimited or you want "all the nutrients" then do all soil.

Definitely dont mix the two, you're not going to like this I promise. You could even contain the filler lava/gravel in mesh bags, that way rescapes will be much easier without mixing between the layers.

The APT root tabs get good reviews from some people and they sound good to me (especially if someone else pays  ) but I would personally save these for adding maybe a month in when your plants have some roots and have had a chance to settle down. 
There is rarely a problem of "not enough" nutrients at start up with soil, and it seems needlessly expensive to add root tabs on start up when you'll be doing frequent water changes and trying to mitigate water column levels at first, essentially pouring nutrients down the drain. That said the biggest source of nutrient spikes at startup is the rocket fuel they like to call ADA Amazonia, since you seem to be going for a slightly less spicy soil then this will be less of a problem for you.


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## FISHnLAB (28 Sep 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Lava gravel or "any name product that is like lava gravel" should be used only as a filler in my opinion. Manufacturers of these sometimes like to state that these contain _magnificent_ amounts of minerals, all your plants could hope and dream about. They like to conveniently gloss over the fact that most of these minerals will be insoluble forms and almost entirely useless to your plants.
> 
> So if you have a big tank or a big slope fill some of it with some cheap lava gravel, dont spend extra for filler that says it does something for plants.
> Then cap it with the soil of your choice, make sure you get the capping layer deep enough and allow for a little bit of settling over time, otherwise you'll get a headache with replanting later down the road.
> ...


I don't think Eco-Complete is just lava gravel. It seams to be a blend consisting of mainly Basaltic volcanic soil in two different grain sizes. It has been used by many successfully by itself in planted tanks and other then its on the larger side grain size it works well from what I hear. Good to know about the insoluble minerals, thanks. 

Roger that and thanks for the heads up👍. Yes, I am considering using coarse mesh bags like MD Fish Tanks uses on YouTube for the filler if I go with a 2 product approach. All aquasoil is an option but, definitely the most expensive one and I am far from rich lol. How much benefit would I see with all Aquasoil(say 3 inches deep) vs Aquasoil with mesh pouches of root Tab infused filler under it? 

I plan to buy a full kit of powdered Macro/Micro/Trace elements and learn to mix my own fertilizer and make my own root tabs but, I can't learn everything at once(not enough time in the day lol) so I plan to use 24 Hour Aquarist products for the first year. I am already using their APT 3 daily(along with Seachem Flourish Advance) in my 3 gallon planted along with API root Tab infused Seachem Flourite Black and it seams to be doing well. Just so you know, I got started in this hobby only 3 & 1/2 months ago and planted my first tank 2 weeks ago. So, I am extremely green but, a faster learner then most. 

Roger that on initial root tab usage. I may still add a few though as I want the absolute best growth possible and don't want to disturb the roots for a few months. As for ADA, although I love their stuff and highly respect Takashi Amano, I will be avoiding their Ammonia ridden substrates(they are way to expensive and hard to get in Canada anyway) and don't really like their system as a whole. I plan to go to the other ends of the fertilizer spectrum with either lean dosing or EI in combination with quality root tabs. 

Thanks again for all of your help. Any other suggestions or constructive criticisms are more then welcome. Good growing sir👍.


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## FISHnLAB (28 Sep 2022)

Here is my first attempt at a planted tank. It's a 3 gallon rimless...

Inhabitants:
1 x Male Dragon Scale Plakat Betta                   
1 x Zebra Nerite Snail

Hardscape:
Mountain Stone
Spider Wood

Substrate:
Seachem Flourite Black(API Root Tab infused)

Plant Food:
24 Hour Aquarist APT 3(Daily)
Seachem Flourish Advance(Daily)
API Root Tabs

Plant Species:
1 x Bucephalandra Theia
1 x Anubias Nana "Wrinkle Leave"
Valisinaria Fortifolia
Hygrophilia Difformis
Helanthium Tenellus
Rotalla Rotundifolia "Green"
Taxiphyllum "Spiky"
Vesicularia "Weeping"
Salvinia Auriculata


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## Hufsa (28 Sep 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> I don't think Eco-Complete is just lava gravel. It seams to be a blend consisting of mainly Basaltic volcanic soil in two different grain sizes. It has been used by many successfully by itself in planted tanks and other then its on the larger side grain size it works well from what I hear. Good to know about the insoluble minerals, thanks.


Ah I may have been wrong to include it in that group then. I have become increasingly jaded about manufacturers over the years and assumed this was one of the inert substrates sold for plants. But it sounds like you have done your research then and not taken their word for it 



FISHnLAB said:


> All aquasoil is an option but, definitely the most expensive one and I am far from rich lol. How much benefit would I see with all Aquasoil(say 3 inches deep) vs Aquasoil with mesh pouches of root Tab infused filler under it?


I think it will only be a minor benefit vs what it will cost, and there is much more to be gained from good care of the tank, which is almost free.



FISHnLAB said:


> I plan to buy a full kit of powdered Macro/Micro/Trace elements and learn to mix my own fertilizer and make my own root tabs but, I can't learn everything at once(not enough time in the day lol) so I plan to use 24 Hour Aquarist products for the first year. I am already using their APT 3 daily(along with Seachem Flourish Advance) in my 3 gallon planted along with API root Tab infused Seachem Flourite Black and it seams to be doing well. Just so you know, I got started in this hobby only 3 & 1/2 months ago and planted my first tank 2 weeks ago. So, I am extremely green but, a faster learner then most.


It sounds like you have a good plan so far, definitely a good idea not to try to master every branch of aquarium DIY at the same time. APT ferts are good products and many use them with great success, I think they are a solid choice for a premade fert to lean on while one is busy with all the other gazillion things one needs to learn and wants to get right



FISHnLAB said:


> Roger that on initial root tab usage. I may still add a few though as I want the absolute best growth possible and don't want to disturb the roots for a few months. As for ADA, although I love their stuff and highly respect Takashi Amano, I will be avoiding their Ammonia ridden substrates(they are way to expensive and hard to get in Canada anyway) and don't really like their system as a whole. I plan to go to the other ends of the fertilizer spectrum with either lean dosing or EI in combination with quality root tabs.


I should probably be honest that I dont actually use soil nor root tabs, so definitely take that part with a pinch of salt. That would just be how I would do it if I were to set up a soil tank, and I dont think it matters a great deal either way. Some of the much more knowledgeable experts around here might chime in differently, and in that case I would rather you listen to them as they have hands on experience.



FISHnLAB said:


> Thanks again for all of your help. Any other suggestions


No problem, hope you will start a journal, we love those around here 🤩


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## FISHnLAB (28 Sep 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Ah I may have been wrong to include it in that group then. I have become increasingly jaded about manufacturers over the years and assumed this was one of the inert substrates sold for plants. But it sounds like you have done your research then and not taken their word for it
> 
> 
> I think it will only be a minor benefit vs what it will cost, and there is much more to be gained from good care of the tank, which is almost free.
> ...


I too have very quickly become jaded with manufacturers and definitely don't take their word for anything. There is just so much snake oil and misinformation in this hobby/industry. Far more then others I have participated in. I really don't know that much about eco-complete overall, it just seams to get ok reviews from people who have tried it and it is one of the cheapest planted substrate options available to me currently. In comparison, it is almost 3 times less expensive then Fluval's Stratum at my costs. 

Roger that. I will probably run a filler in coarse mesh bags then to save some cash which can go to more plants(can you ever have enough lol). 

That's good. When doing research and seeing what was easily available to me(and what isn't just mainly water lol) I came down to 24 Hour Aquarist and NilocG. I chose APT. I do look forward to both the savings and the adjustability/flexibility of learning to make my own ferts one day though... 

Copy, thanks for being so helpful and honest. 

Yes, I think I will do one. My new tank will be ordered at the start of November so expect one soon. 

Thanks again Hufsa, your experience is much appreciated👍.


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## _Maq_ (28 Sep 2022)

Your most foolproof and cheapest way for substrate is clean silica sand. Don't get enchanted with 'fertile' substrates. The nutrients in them are either tightly bound chemically and thus mostly inaccessible to the plants, or they are free. In the latter case, not plants but microbes will be the first to benefit from them. That's the source of many difficulties which require experience to handle. If you're a beginner, you're advised not to make things more complicated than necessary.


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## Hufsa (28 Sep 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> Your most foolproof and cheapest way for substrate is clean silica sand. Don't get enchanted with 'fertile' substrates.


Have to disagree with you there @_Maq_ , even as a sand user myself I think the most foolproof way to get started with a high tech tank is using some kind of soil, especially one of the more moderate ones (not Amazonia V1).
Doing a dark start for a few weeks can allow the aquarist to skip past some of the "microbe&algae free for all - wild west" phase that can be hard on invitro plants, and if they dont blast their photon torpedoes on max high end LED lights on 100% then they should avoid a lot of the melty tragedy.
What the soil substrate does that the sand does not, is smooth over mistakes. If youre dosing a bit too little, or a little too much, the soil releases or captures as needed to make things a little bit easier for the plants. Many plants also seem to like being fed both from the roots and the leaves. Basically the soil acts as a buffer in many ways and makes things a bit more forgiving.
I definitely understand your reasons for preferring sand, I prefer sand too but im not sure I would recommend it for someone looking to set up a high tech tank "the easiest way".
The soil takes a bit of management but I think for many users the benefits outweigh the cons.


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## _Maq_ (28 Sep 2022)

I think we both know what we're talking about. The difference seems to be, in fact, _psychological_, so to speak. I take for granted that a beginner is not patient enough. And proper cycling takes well about six to eight weeks minimum.
Yes, silica sand is inert and with low adsorption capacity. However, it won't stay clean for long, no matter what you do. In a few weeks, even if it looks clean, it's full of detritus and living organic mass. Detritus works as an adsorbent for many nutrients.


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## FISHnLAB (28 Sep 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> Your most foolproof and cheapest way for substrate is clean silica sand. Don't get enchanted with 'fertile' substrates. The nutrients in them are either tightly bound chemically and thus mostly inaccessible to the plants, or they are free. In the latter case, not plants but microbes will be the first to benefit from them. That's the source of many difficulties which require experience to handle. If you're a beginner, you're advised not to make things more complicated than necessary.


Hi and thanks for the reply👍.

I'm definitely not interested in "fertile" soils per se as I plan to enrich whichever I choose with root tabs. I'm more into a durable long lasting soil with a high CEC. 

Silica sand is not an option for me as my tap water is already high in silicates, I don't want to worry about Hydrogen Sulfide pockets, I don't want to damage my expensive brand new canister filter/UV light/Inline Heater setup or worry about cleaning fine sand out of it, I don't want to worry about excessive silt or disturbances while cleaning and planting, I want the detritus to permeate the soil to help feed the root feeders, and I don't like the look of white or beige sand. If I were going sand it would be something black, grey, or red/brown most likely(think Flourite sand, Onyx sand, or black diamond sand). 

I am definitely not looking to make a choice that would cause me great difficulty. But, at the same time, I enjoy complicated problems, the learning process, and am not your average beginner as you can probably tell by the fact that I got into this hobby only 3.5 months ago in an unexpected trial by fire when I rescued an ill family members Betta at the edge of death. I started with learning basic fish keeping in an artificial decoration filled tank and went onto converting to a fully planted ecosystem tank and my plants and animals are thriving. I learn very fast and already had a knowledge base in chemistry and biology before I got into this which helps. 

Thanks again for your help and suggestions👍.


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## FISHnLAB (28 Sep 2022)

All of that said, I will eventually have issues I'm sure and will be here to ask for help as needed if you kind folks will have me. I don't want you to think I'm a no it all or am not open to suggestion or criticism, I'm just trying to outline my ambitions, skills, and where I currently stand and want to go in the hobby.


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## FISHnLAB (28 Sep 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Have to disagree with you there @_Maq_ , even as a sand user myself I think the most foolproof way to get started with a high tech tank is using some kind of soil, especially one of the more moderate ones (not Amazonia V1).
> Doing a dark start for a few weeks can allow the aquarist to skip past some of the "microbe&algae free for all - wild west" phase that can be hard on invitro plants, and if they dont blast their photon torpedoes on max high end LED lights on 100% then they should avoid a lot of the melty tragedy.
> What the soil substrate does that the sand does not, is smooth over mistakes. If youre dosing a bit too little, or a little too much, the soil releases or captures as needed to make things a little bit easier for the plants. Many plants also seem to like being fed both from the roots and the leaves. Basically the soil acts as a buffer in many ways and makes things a bit more forgiving.
> I definitely understand your reasons for preferring sand, I prefer sand too but im not sure I would recommend it for someone looking to set up a high tech tank "the easiest way".
> The soil takes a bit of management but I think for many users the benefits outweigh the cons.


Good info, thanks. On this note of Lighting intensity, can you help me on this one? I'm not really sure where I stand here on my 3 gallon above. I planted just over 2 weeks ago and ramped the light up slowly. But, I have no idea if I'm too bright or not bright enough. Can you help if you can? This is the light I am using... 

NICREW RGB+W 24/7 LED Aquarium Light with Remote Controller, Full Spectrum Fish Tank Light for Planted Freshwater Tanks, Planted Aquarium Light with Extendable Brackets to 12-18 Inches, 12Watt https://a.co/d/byF0z6X

I am currently running it as follows during peak hours of the day... 

White - 50%
Red - 90%
Green - 30%
Blue - 25%

Peak duration is 9 hours with a much dimmer 1 hour ramp up in the morning and a 2 hour ramp down at night. 

I own a high end light meter but, not a par meter unfortunately. Not sure if this will help or not. This light specs at 600 Lumens at 12 watts at full power fyi. 

Thanks👍.


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## _Maq_ (28 Sep 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Silica sand is not an option for me as my tap water is already high in silicates


No worry, it has nothing to do with that, silica sand is perfectly insoluble and would add less dissolved silica than any other substrate. Mind you, your tank is made from silica. Glass is a silica with some additives. Beside that, in freshwater aquariums, dissolved silica is harmless. For your info, I _fertilize_ with hydrated silica.


FISHnLAB said:


> I don't want to worry about Hydrogen Sulfide pockets


For that, silica sand is your best option.


FISHnLAB said:


> I don't want to damage my expensive brand new canister filter/UV light/Inline Heater setup or worry about cleaning fine sand out of it


Never heard of such concerns. Unless you're using under-gravel filter, substrate will not enter your filter. Only if you use soil substrate it may contain lightweight particles which may possibly clog your filter media.


FISHnLAB said:


> I don't want to worry about excessive silt or disturbances while cleaning and planting, I want the detritus to permeate the soil


The only way to avoid such trouble is silica sand of suitable size. I'd recommend 1.5 to 2.0 millimeter fraction.


FISHnLAB said:


> I don't like the look of white or beige sand. If I were going sand it would be something black, grey, or red/brown


You can use colored sands. I don't like them. The silica grains are covered with dyes, essentially plastics. Unnatural, with unnatural physical features. Admittedly, many hobbyists use dyed sands without apparent issues.
In reality, silica sand will never remain snow-white. Biofilms of various microbes incl. microalgae will quickly make it look 'dirty'.


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## FISHnLAB (28 Sep 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> No worry, it has nothing to do with that, silica sand is perfectly insoluble and would add less dissolved silica than any other substrate. Mind you, your tank is made from silica. Glass is a silica with some additives. Beside that, in freshwater aquariums, dissolved silica is harmless. For your info, I _fertilize_ with hydrated silica.
> 
> For that, silica sand is your best option.
> 
> ...


Good to know. Silicates are the main source of food for Diatoms I thought? Before I went planted I used Phosguard to lower my silicates and it immediately stopped growth of diatoms.

My research indicates that tightly packed small grain sand like silica is usually the cause of hydrogen sulfide pockets which can cause spikes if you disturb them. Am I off base here?

Well, fine sand causing problems is in most beginner tutorials so I'm not sure what to think here. There are reports all over the net of damaged or prematurely worn impellers and just general annoyance with fine sand getting into everything. It just seams like more of a hassle all around verses gravel. I think if I ever go sand it will be a very coarse variety.

Roger that. Coarse sand or gravel for me.

I'm pretty sure none of the sands I listed are dyed. I just don't like light coloured Substrate other then for a riverbed accent or foreground strip maybe.

How does black diamond blasting sand compare?


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## Hufsa (28 Sep 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Silica sand is not an option for me as my tap water is already high in silicates, I don't want to worry about Hydrogen Sulfide pockets, I don't want to damage my expensive brand new canister filter/UV light/Inline Heater setup or worry about cleaning fine sand out of it, I don't want to worry about excessive silt or disturbances while cleaning and planting, I want the detritus to permeate the soil to help feed the root feeders, and I don't like the look of white or beige sand. If I were going sand it would be something black, grey, or red/brown most likely(think Flourite sand, Onyx sand, or black diamond sand).


As Maq said, silica sand is not soluble, it will not contribute to any silicate levels. The Amazon river system runs over very well worn sand, almost pure silica. The water has been running through the terrain there for thousands of years, washing almost everything soluble away. The silica sand is still there 😁

The matter of hydrogen sulfide pockets is a topic that could easily need its own thread, but the general view here on the forum is that there is a lot of warnings and fear, and not quite as much evidence. Its possible that this could be a problem in some setups, but from what I have seen and experienced so far in around 20 years of fishkeeping, it seems that the problem may be somewhat overstated. I have used sand all these years and have not had a problem like this. Currently I am using very fine sand, 0,1-0,5 mm grains. I dont experience any smelly pockets or problems with plants rooting. You are unlikely to experience a lot of sand getting into your filters and equipment, I only saw notable amounts of sand when I was keeping this very fine grain sand and also had large whiptail catfish. The sand only ended up at the bottom of the canister filters, none of it made it to the impellers. Properly washed sand will be the least messy substrate for a tank that frequently sees plants uprooted, the dutch masters use sand for a reason. So in that case the soil will cause the most silt/disturbance. Your other points are totally fair and I dont want it to seem like I am trying to sell you on sand, I really am not and I think it is best for your plans and preferences to stick to your original plan of soil. I just had to clarify a few things 😁



FISHnLAB said:


> I am definitely not looking to make a choice that would cause me great difficulty. But, at the same time, I enjoy complicated problems, the learning process, and am not your average beginner as you can probably tell by the fact that I got into this hobby only 3.5 months ago in an unexpected trial by fire when I rescued an ill family members Betta at the edge of death. I started with learning basic fish keeping in an artificial decoration filled tank and went onto converting to a fully planted ecosystem tank and my plants and animals are thriving. I learn very fast and already had a knowledge base in chemistry and biology before I got into this which helps.





FISHnLAB said:


> All of that said, I will eventually have issues I'm sure and will be here to ask for help as needed if you kind folks will have me. I don't want you to think I'm a no it all or am not open to suggestion or criticism, I'm just trying to outline my ambitions, skills, and where I currently stand and want to go in the hobby.


I hope you dont take mine and Maq's comments the wrong way, we just love a good discussion, we cant resist 😉 I could tell that you already have a lot of research & knowledge behind you, and I think its very good that you know what you want and dont want. If you ask 5 aquarists their opinion I bet you will get at least 6 different answers, so knowing what you want helps to navigate what can be a really confusing start for most. Im still pretty confused tbh and sometimes feel like the more I learn the less I know 😅



FISHnLAB said:


> Good info, thanks. On this note of Lighting intensity, can you help me on this one? I'm not really sure where I stand here on my 3 gallon above. I planted just over 2 weeks ago and ramped the light up slowly. But, I have no idea if I'm too bright or not bright enough. Can you help if you can? This is the light I am using...
> 
> NICREW RGB+W 24/7 LED Aquarium Light with Remote Controller, Full Spectrum Fish Tank Light for Planted Freshwater Tanks, Planted Aquarium Light with Extendable Brackets to 12-18 Inches, 12Watt https://a.co/d/byF0z6X
> 
> ...


Ill be quick to say that specific lighting units isnt my area of expertise (although im very passionate about uhh... sand, plants and certain families of fish😅 ), so this one might be best answered by someone else.
But my initial impression is that 9 hours is a little longer photoperiod, you might be a-ok with this but the super standard advice is to start out somewhere between 6-8 hours. Another super standard safest advice is to limit ramp up and down to 30 minutes each, but again this is a guideline rather than an absolute fact. The longer you have the ramping the greater the odds are that something unintentional is going to enjoy your periods of low light (so possibly algae). Your intensity doesnt sound too bad, but you should take into account that depth of tank plays a factor in how much light gets to the plants.




FISHnLAB said:


> Good to know. Silicates are the main source of food for Diatoms I thought? Before I went planted I used Phosguard to lower my silicates and it immediately stopped growth of diatoms.


Silica sand wont give your water any more silicates. Theres sadly a bit of misinformation still going around the hobby about this, including from generally ok sources like Green Aqua.
We have several threads on this on the forum if you dont mind a search, I found one of Darrel's latest posts about this, you might be able to follow the links back to the other thread.



FISHnLAB said:


> How does black diamond blasting sand compare?


Dont get this if you are planning to get corydoras or similar bottom dwellers. Black diamond blasting sand looks downright nasty under magnification. I know some people insist that its fine, but for me the close up pictures say enough.


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## _Maq_ (28 Sep 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> My research indicates that


There are many sources of 'knowledge'. I cannot provide any certificate that 'I am the right one'. And that's good because I keep in high esteem many colleagues who often think differently. ...


FISHnLAB said:


> fine sand causing problems is in most beginner tutorials


... It takes time to read through all those guides and tutorials etc., and you'll have to try for yourself, too. Some things arguably resist comprehension until you try for yourself.
Fine sand in itself does not make these problems. Sand is harmless. Problems with toxic substances come with poor maintenance and faults. They may occur regardless the substrate you actually use.


FISHnLAB said:


> I'm pretty sure none of the sands I listed are dyed


Perhaps. You know, I live far from your place and the substrates marketed here are definitely different from those in yours. Yet I suggest to be cautious before you say 'sure they are not dyed'. They don't look like that, and that is precisely the point.


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## sparkyweasel (28 Sep 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Good to know. Silicates are the main source of food for Diatoms I thought? Before I went planted I used Phosguard to lower my silicates and it immediately stopped growth of diatoms.


There's a good thread on diatoms here;
Diatoms
All diatom 'cures' work in almost every case. But diatoms usually disappear of their own accord shortly after they appear. You can use any treatment you like or none at all; they soon go away. 


FISHnLAB said:


> My research indicates that tightly packed small grain sand like silica is usually the cause of hydrogen sulfide pockets which can cause spikes if you disturb them. Am I off base here?


Silica is what it's made of, - could be any size; sand, gravel, pebbles, boulders. 


FISHnLAB said:


> Well, fine sand causing problems is in most beginner tutorials so I'm not sure what to think here. There are reports all over the net of damaged or prematurely worn impellers and just general annoyance with fine sand getting into everything. It just seams like more of a hassle all around verses gravel. I think if I ever go sand it will be a very coarse variety.


Even if it gets into the filter, to reach the impeller the sand would have to pass through all the filter media. That would suggest something badly wrong with the filter; design, construction or maintenance.


FISHnLAB said:


> Roger that. Coarse sand or gravel for me.


Yes, not very fine sand (silica or otherwise).


FISHnLAB said:


> I'm pretty sure none of the sands I listed are dyed. I just don't like light coloured Substrate other then for a riverbed accent or foreground strip maybe.
> 
> How does black diamond blasting sand compare?


Black Diamond is an industrial abrasive. No guarantee that it's aquarium safe, even if a previous batch gave the user no problems. And I wouldn't use it with any fish that rummage in the substrate. IE catfish (inc corys), cichlids (inc dwarfs), barbs, loaches, - that's about half the fish in the aquarium trade. 
hth


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## FISHnLAB (29 Sep 2022)

Hufsa said:


> As Maq said, silica sand is not soluble, it will not contribute to any silicate levels. The Amazon river system runs over very well worn sand, almost pure silica. The water has been running through the terrain there for thousands of years, washing almost everything soluble away. The silica sand is still there 😁
> 
> The matter of hydrogen sulfide pockets is a topic that could easily need its own thread, but the general view here on the forum is that there is a lot of warnings and fear, and not quite as much evidence. Its possible that this could be a problem in some setups, but from what I have seen and experienced so far in around 20 years of fishkeeping, it seems that the problem may be somewhat overstated. I have used sand all these years and have not had a problem like this. Currently I am using very fine sand, 0,1-0,5 mm grains. I dont experience any smelly pockets or problems with plants rooting. You are unlikely to experience a lot of sand getting into your filters and equipment, I only saw notable amounts of sand when I was keeping this very fine grain sand and also had large whiptail catfish. The sand only ended up at the bottom of the canister filters, none of it made it to the impellers. Properly washed sand will be the least messy substrate for a tank that frequently sees plants uprooted, the dutch masters use sand for a reason. So in that case the soil will cause the most silt/disturbance. Your other points are totally fair and I dont want it to seem like I am trying to sell you on sand, I really am not and I think it is best for your plans and preferences to stick to your original plan of soil. I just had to clarify a few things 😁
> 
> ...


There seams to mixed opinions and arguments on both sides of this topic but, either way I don't like white/beige sand so it's a non-issue for me.

Good to know, thanks.

No, you guys are great. I enjoy a good discussion too. Yes, this is a very peculiar hobby that way. So many different opinions and "right" ways to do things. Not to mention buckets of misinformation, disinformation, and snake oil. It's pretty annoying to me really as I generally value doing things the "right" way. It's made me jaded towards YouTube and forums like these honestly. I like talking with like minded hobbyists and sharing the hobby with others otherwise I would just stick to my biology text books and research papers from the likes of Diana Walstad and other PhDs. It just seams like more people get by with good water and a constant supply of new fish and plants vs actually knowing what they are doing and the science behind it. But, I digress, maybe that is just my cynical side lol.

Good to know. I have decided to buck the standard advice and use a 12 hour on off light cycle. I will use intensity to dial things back if needed but, I hope to be able to get my aquariums into balance eventually so I don't need to. MD Fish Tanks on YouTube runs a 14 hour on light cycle on all of his tanks successfully for years so I think it can be achieved. Time will tell😬... Thanks for the advice on the ramps as I hadn't considered that. I will at least dial my sunset one down to 1 hour like my sunrise. They ramp for 30 min into each light phase too. If I have problems I can go down to just a 30 min ramp.

I'll have a quick look but, it is kind of irrelevant anyway as I don't plan to use white or beige sand in anything other then a small highlighting role. I just prefer dark substrates and the way they make my fish/tank look.

Roger that. I have heard it is pretty sharp for the bottom feeders. Maybe I should have left out the "blasting" part of the description though. I don't mean just the cheap industrial abrasive sold at welding shops, I'm talking about products like this too...

AquaNatural Diamond Black 10lb, Premium Gravel and Substrate for Aquariums, Fish Tanks and terrariums, 2-4mm https://a.co/d/gqY5o3P

What do you think?


----------



## FISHnLAB (29 Sep 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> There are many sources of 'knowledge'. I cannot provide any certificate that 'I am the right one'. And that's good because I keep in high esteem many colleagues who often think differently. ...
> 
> ... It takes time to read through all those guides and tutorials etc., and you'll have to try for yourself, too. Some things arguably resist comprehension until you try for yourself.
> Fine sand in itself does not make these problems. Sand is harmless. Problems with toxic substances come with poor maintenance and faults. They may occur regardless the substrate you actually use.
> ...


Yes, more in this hobby then most.

Yes, hands on learning is my preference as well. And, yes people cause a lot of their own problems but, at the same time fine sand is harder to deal with then coarse sand or gravel for a number of reasons imo.

Good point. I'm sure they don't always advertise. That said, one has to like his tank to keep enjoying the hobby and I really don't like light coloured substrates. So, although I generally prefer natural products, I'm ok with anything that doesn't leach anything into the water column or hurt my wildlife really dyed or not.


----------



## FISHnLAB (29 Sep 2022)

sparkyweasel said:


> There's a good thread on diatoms here;
> Diatoms
> All diatom 'cures' work in almost every case. But diatoms usually disappear of their own accord shortly after they appear. You can use any treatment you like or none at all; they soon go away.
> 
> ...


I have already read several but, thanks👍. 

I'm aware of that as I have a background in Chemistry thanks. I was referring to the silica pool sand most people buy at Walmart and the like. 

True enough, the mechanical media should stop it but, I don't want to clean sand out of anything really. I used to live on a beach and it drove me nuts🤣🏖️. 

Agreed. 

Sorry, I shouldn't have said "blasting sand". I am aware the industrial abrasive sold for sand blasters is not ideal for bottom feeders. There are other aquarium specific products available like this though... 

AquaNatural Diamond Black 10lb, Premium Gravel and Substrate for Aquariums, Fish Tanks and terrariums, 2-4mm https://a.co/d/gqY5o3P

What do you think?


----------



## sparkyweasel (29 Sep 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> AquaNatural Diamond Black 10lb, Premium Gravel and Substrate for Aquariums, Fish Tanks and terrariums, 2-4mm https://a.co/d/gqY5o3P
> 
> What do you think?


That looks good; dark colour, not too fine, aquarium-safe.
And made of quartz, a vaiety of silica.


----------



## Hufsa (29 Sep 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> AquaNatural Diamond Black 10lb, Premium Gravel and Substrate for Aquariums, Fish Tanks and terrariums, 2-4mm https://a.co/d/gqY5o3P
> 
> What do you think?


Not impressed, look at the grains on the user submitted images


----------



## FISHnLAB (29 Sep 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Not impressed, look at the grains on the user submitted images


What's the issue? Too large? Too irregular? Too sharp?


----------



## Hufsa (30 Sep 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> What's the issue? Too large? Too irregular? Too sharp?


Too sharp indeed, wont be very nice for fish to sift.
I see some long rod like "grains" on the picture, and it makes me wonder if the sand is made from some sort of industrial slag, that would explain why the grains have those very telltale crushed and sharp edges.


----------



## dw1305 (30 Sep 2022)

Hi all,


FISHnLAB said:


> I too have very quickly become jaded with manufacturers and definitely don't take their word for anything. There is just so much snake oil and misinformation in this hobby/industry. Far more then others I have participated in.


Unfortunately that has been a long running theme on this forum, various vendors who are <"economical with the truth"> and seek to obscure what their product contains and how it "works".


FISHnLAB said:


> Too sharp?





Hufsa said:


> Too sharp indeed, wont be very nice for fish to sift.


Same for me, I like rounded grains. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## sparkyweasel (30 Sep 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Not impressed, look at the grains on the user submitted images


Good call!


----------



## John q (30 Sep 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> planted community tank(49.1 gallon) and am trying to decide on Substrate


Gravel or sand, that would be my suggestion 


FISHnLAB said:


> : I plan to add 24 Hour Aquarist APT Jazz root tabs


Fools and there money are easily parted, I'll leave that thought there. 😉


----------



## _Maq_ (1 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> AquaNatural Diamond Black 10lb, Premium Gravel and Substrate for Aquariums, Fish Tanks and terrariums, 2-4mm https://a.co/d/gqY5o3P


I suspect it's an anthracite.


----------



## MichaelJ (1 Oct 2022)

I use just Caribsea Eco-Complete gravel in both my tanks.  If I had to start a brand new tanks today I likely would put a thin (1-2cm) layer of substrate (such as Tropica) below the gravel just to help give the plants a bit of a head-start. Long term it won't matter though.

Cheers,
Michael


----------



## FISHnLAB (1 Oct 2022)

Hey guys, sorry I got away to other threads for a bit😊. Yes, I see that Diamond Black is quite sharp. I am uncertain what to think on this one as I hear of people successfully keep corys and the like in all types of substrate including sharp ones but, I tend to air on the side of caution so I am going to stick with proven safe products if I plan to run bottom feeders. 

So, now I am uncertain what to do. I read of many people having troubles with Fluval's Stratum and its smaller grain size and benefitial bacteria infused BioStratum cousin. Apparently it is super light and crumbles easily compared to other aquasoils? Also a bit large in the case of regular Stratum? 

So, I am still going to do coarse mesh bags filled with Eco-Complete as filler in the back, but now, I am thinking of sourcing some ADA, Tropica, or UNS(or anything else recommend really) to use as a main soil with no topper(decorative patch aside maybe). It isn't cheap or easy to find here in samml town Canada but, I am not sure I want to try and rock a Walstad as my first big and first high tech setup. What do you think? I am aware of all the different conditions(Ammonia release more or less with different products, different grain sizes, etc.) but, what should I shoot for. What are your experiences? What is the... ULTIMATE AQUASOIL? Sorry😂...


----------



## Hufsa (1 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> I am thinking of sourcing some ADA, Tropica, or UNS(or anything else recommend really) to use as a main soil with no topper(decorative patch aside maybe). It isn't cheap or easy to find here in samml town Canada but, I am not sure I want to try and rock a Walstad as my first big and first high tech setup. What do you think? I am aware of all the different conditions(Ammonia release more or less with different products, different grain sizes, etc.) but, what should I shoot for. What are your experiences? What is the... ULTIMATE AQUASOIL? Sorry😂...



Hello 👁️👄👁️
Its me again

Kinda relieved to hear you wont be going with the Fluval Stratum. Ive just never heard anyone rave about it you know, nor does it seem to be very popular in repeat situations (not the kind of soil you get on your second round of doing things). ADA carries the price tag just because it says ADA on the bag, im not a huge fan of their products, although I hear from a credible source that their tools are genuinely the best on the market. So I would personally steer clear of the ADA soil just because I dont like paying for a name, and I know youre not interested in the soil for its rocket fuel capabilities like some are.
Tropica is a very safe choice, its very commonly used and just a solid product, a "known quantity". Some of the other brands are probably just fine too, they will be cheaper in many cases because they dont have the widespread use to lean on that Tropica does. If you can get Tropica for a fair price locally I would get that, if you get another brand locally that is still fairly common but a fair bit cheaper then you can probably go for that, in the end I bet most of the soils will be fairly similar in composition.


----------



## FISHnLAB (1 Oct 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Hello 👁️👄👁️
> Its me again


Bahaha, you watchin me ain't ya lol. I totally appreciate all of the help👍.


Hufsa said:


> Kinda relieved to hear you wont be going with the Fluval Stratum. Ive just never heard anyone rave about it you know, nor does it seem to be very popular in repeat situations (not the kind of soil you get on your second round of doing things).


Yeah, the Stratum is just so much easier to get here then most other products. And, it is much cheaper too but, maybe for a reason as it really doesn't seam to get great reviews nor repeat use much like you say. The fish keeping scene is just so much smaller here from what I see and the aquascaping scene is really small. I mean some is because I live in a smaller town(sometimes I wonder if I will be the only one in the city with a quality rimless tank and thickly planted aquascape lol). But, aquascaping in particular doesn't seam to be very big at all in Canada. Part of it may be our government's assault on common meds for fish keeping, not sure really(things always tend to be smaller and more expensive in Canada really unfortunately). Anyway, that's part of the reason for considering Stratum or Biostratum originally, I can get it right at the local pet stores and easily on Amazon. But, it's not worth having troubles and I want the best tank possible within reason. Sorry to ramble lol...


Hufsa said:


> ADA carries the price tag just because it says ADA on the bag, im not a huge fan of their products, although I hear from a credible source that their tools are genuinely the best on the market. So I would personally steer clear of the ADA soil just because I dont like paying for a name, and I know youre not interested in the soil for its rocket fuel capabilities like some are.


I haven't checked pricing and availability yet but yeah although I highly respect and admire the work of Takashi Amano, some of their stuff is just ridiculous. They wanted $207.99CAD(153.36EUR) for a set of ADA wave scissors at an online shop I was looking at😳. And, that is coming from a guy who has owned a number of quality tools from the likes of Snap-on, Hazet, Stahlwille, Knipex, etc.😂. Maybe if I had seen them in person/hand I would be more impressed though lol. That said, my options are limited so I might have to go with what I can get with free shipping.


Hufsa said:


> Tropica is a very safe choice, its very commonly used and just a solid product, a "known quantity". Some of the other brands are probably just fine too, they will be cheaper in many cases because they dont have the widespread use to lean on that Tropica does. If you can get Tropica for a fair price locally I would get that,


Yes, I have heard good things. It is at the top of my list I think. But, what variety? I'm thinking the finer stuff will hold small plants better? Be better overall or?


Hufsa said:


> if you get another brand locally that is still fairly common but a fair bit cheaper then you can probably go for that, in the end I bet most of the soils will be fairly similar in composition.


I'll let you know what's available once I do some research.

How is UNS Controsoil?

Thanks again for all of the help👍.


----------



## FISHnLAB (1 Oct 2022)

John q said:


> Gravel or sand, that would be my suggestion


Like inert you mean(or maybe root Tab infused) or Walstad style?


John q said:


> Fools and there money are easily parted, I'll leave that thought there. 😉


Not to be too harsh but, that's a little bit of an ignorant thing to say. You have no idea what my conditions are and live on the other side of the planet from me by the looks of it.

I have too much on my plate to learn how to mix my own ferts right now and quality Root Tabs are very hard to find where I live. I can get APT J easily, and yes definitely expensively lol, off of Amazon with free shipping in 2 days. I'm pretty sure though, although they are expensive, they are amongst the highest quality on the market, Dennis seams like a pretty smart dude. But, I haven't bought them yet so am definitely open to suggestions if you have one that is of equal quality and easily available in Canada at a better value.


----------



## FISHnLAB (1 Oct 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> I use just Caribsea Eco-Complete gravel in both my tanks.  If I had to start a brand new tanks today I likely would put a thin (1-2cm) layer of substrate (such as Tropica) below the gravel just to help give the plants a bit of a head-start. Long term it won't matter though.
> 
> Cheers,
> Michael


Good information to know, thank you👍.


----------



## FISHnLAB (1 Oct 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> I suspect it's an anthracite.


Maybe I should buy some and try and light it on fire🔥🤣. Could always drain the tank to heat my house if things get real rough here😁.


----------



## FISHnLAB (1 Oct 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,


Hi, nice to meet you. 


dw1305 said:


> Unfortunately that has been a long running theme on this forum, various vendors who are <"economical with the truth"> and seek to obscure what their product contains and how it "works".


Yes, definite a major problem in this industry/hobby. 


dw1305 said:


> Same for me, I like rounded grains.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Yes, I think I will stick to smoother products for any tanks that I plant to put bottom feeders in.


----------



## FISHnLAB (1 Oct 2022)

sparkyweasel said:


> That looks good; dark colour, not too fine, aquarium-safe.
> And made of quartz, a vaiety of silica.


Thanks for the reply.


----------



## _Maq_ (1 Oct 2022)

sparkyweasel said:


> And made of quartz, a vaiety of silica.


Yes, it's written on the bag. However, if it's silica, then there's no need to use a sharp-edged one, and - more importantly - the statement on large colonization surface does not make sense. Even shattered, sharp-edged silica does not feature surface area we could call 'large'.
Beside that, I've read carefully the instruction and it suggests to use as many kilograms as liters required. That leads me to assume that the technical density of this thing is close to that of water (one kilo per liter). In other words, the substrate is very light. That is why I've suggested it might be anthracite. It looks like that very much and the density fits. Also the surface area.


----------



## John q (2 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Not to be too harsh but, that's a little bit of an ignorant thing to say. You have no idea what my conditions are and live on the other side of the planet from me by the looks of it.


Fair enough. I've no idea how difficult it is to buy generic osmocote over in Canada. 

I don't doubt for a second APT jazz isn't a good product, I just find it a bit of mickey take that it costs $20 for 18 tabs.


----------



## dw1305 (2 Oct 2022)

Hi all,


John q said:


> I don't doubt for a second APT jazz isn't a good product, I just find it a bit of mickey take that it costs $20 for 18 tabs.


That is the thing I struggle with, you need some <"pretty inventive advertising"> to persuade people that is a feasible price, and you need to be entirely amoral to actually try it. I'm going to be very wary of any company that does this, they have basically lost my trust and I'm pretty sure <"they aren't helping themselves">, or our hobby, in the long term. You can <"sell a product"> without  trying to rip-off everybody in sight.


FISHnLAB said:


> I haven't checked pricing and availability yet but yeah although I highly respect and admire the work of Takashi Amano, some of their stuff is just ridiculous. They wanted $207.99CAD(153.36EUR) for a set of ADA wave scissors at an online shop I was looking at Aand, that is coming from a guy who has owned a number of quality tools from the likes of Snap-on, Hazet, Stahlwille, Knipex, etc.


@FISHnLAB this is another really good point, <"you can apply what you know"> (sceptical thinking) from <"other parts of your life to aquarium products">. That is all I do, I say "_does the bit I understand make sense?_" and if it doesn't? I assume the rest of it is all snake oil as well.


FISHnLAB said:


> Like inert you mean(or maybe root Tab infused) or Walstad style?


You can use an <"inert medium"> and <"just feed the water column">, a lot of members do this successfully.  <"https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/water-issues-and-nitrate-removal.70397/#post-703815">


FISHnLAB said:


> I have too much on my plate to learn how to mix my own ferts right now and quality Root Tabs are very hard to find where I live.


I'd recommend a horticultural fertiliser, I'm not sure what you can get in Canada, but there will be one. Have a look at <"Solufeed 2 : 1 : 4">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## FISHnLAB (2 Oct 2022)

John q said:


> Fair enough. I've no idea how difficult it is to buy generic osmocote over in Canada.
> 
> I don't doubt for a second APT jazz isn't a good product, I just find it a bit of mickey take that it costs $20 for 18 tabs.


Oh, I can easily get Osmocote or Osmocote Plus. I just wanted to stick to an aquarium specific product that won't cause my tank to be filled with packing peanuts when I swap and replant plants, cause possible massive ammonia spikes due to its much higher macros, or possibly kill or harm some of my wildlife due to high levels of copper or other things in the case of O Plus. 

Aquarium specific root tabs are hard to get here and expensive. Even Seachem ones are $15.99CAD for 10 at PetSmart and just under a buck a piece off Amazon and they are super weak compared to APT J. But, I haven't bought any APT J yet so if a better deal comes up I am definitely open to it as I too think they are way overpriced. I have been watching for NilocG's Root Tabs to come back into stock for a reasonable price too as they went to $90 for 60 which is ridiculous too. It was probably a bad time for me to get into this hobby with supply chain issues and all the other stuff but, I'm all in now and am going to make it happen...


----------



## FISHnLAB (2 Oct 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> That is the thing I struggle with, you need some <"pretty inventive advertising"> to persuade people that is a feasible price, and you need to be entirely amoral to actually try it. I'm going to be very wary of any company that does this, they have basically lost my trust and I'm pretty sure <"they aren't helping themselves">, or our hobby, in the long term. You can <"sell a product"> without  trying to rip-off everybody in sight.


Yes, I really don't understand Dennis's pricing on this product but, maybe there is something we aren't aware of? If it is indeed made of biochar maybe that or the infusion process drives the price up? 


dw1305 said:


> @FISHnLAB this is another really good point, <"you can apply what you know"> (sceptical thinking) from <"other parts of your life to aquarium products">. That is all I do, I say "_does the bit I understand make sense?_" and if it doesn't? I assume the rest of it is all snake oil as well.


Yes, very important to scrutinize things in this hobby I am learning. Especially when you are on a budget. 


dw1305 said:


> You can use an <"inert medium"> and <"just feed the water column">, a lot of members do this successfully.  <"https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/water-issues-and-nitrate-removal.70397/#post-703815">


Yes, I may try this eventually but, am going to root Tab infuse my first high tech setup. 


dw1305 said:


> I'd recommend a horticultural fertiliser, I'm not sure what you can get in Canada, but there will be one. Have a look at <"Solufeed 2 : 1 : 4">.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Thanks. I will look into it. Any issues with too fast of a release in an aquatic environment?


----------



## dw1305 (2 Oct 2022)

Hi all,


FISHnLAB said:


> maybe there is something we aren't aware of? If it is indeed made of biochar maybe that or the infusion process drives the price up?


Not really, "Biochar" is a bit of a  buzz term, but the definition is "_the solid material obtained from the thermochemical conversion of biomass in an oxygen-limited environment_" which just means it is <"charcoal and ash">, which doesn't sound quite so sexy or exclusive. Biochar / Charcoal does have some Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC),  just how much <"depends on a number of factors">. From Munera-Echeverri, J. _et al._  (2018) "Cation exchange capacity of biochar: An urgent method modification" _Sci Total Environ _*642 *_pp.190-197_


> .......However, due to its porous structure and contents of alkaline ashes, the determination of the cation exchange capacity (CEC) is challenging. Literature values for the CEC of biochar are surprisingly variable and are often poorly reproducible, suggesting methodological problems.......The CEC values of biochar increased from 10.8 cmol/Kg carbon to 119.6 cmol/Kg carbon. *These values are smaller than reported CEC values of soil organic carbon.*


Which suggests a certain amount of <"smoke and mirrors is involved"> . That is really the thing with nutrients, there isn't any question about aesthetics, or added value, plants can only take up nutrients as ions, and every potassium ion (K+) is the same as every other one whether it came from "APT Jazz" or the cheapest potassium chloride (KCl) sold as "sodium free salt" .


FISHnLAB said:


> Yes, I really don't understand Dennis's pricing on this product


Basically he is taking advantage of the fact people have some trust in him to sell them a premier priced product. If people know the facts and still want to buy his products, fair enough, but I won't be one of them, and I also think it damages his credibility.


FISHnLAB said:


> Any issues with too fast of a release in an aquatic environment?


There definitely are potential issues.

In the case of these types of fertiliser they are entirely soluble, so all nutrients are instantly available. That is why I'm <"very wary of fertilsers containing ammonia (NH3)">. Some aquarium fertilisers contain ammonia, but they are so dilute that it is difficult to tip enough of them into the tank to kill all your livestock, this isn't an issue with dry salts, you get a lot more <"_bang for your buck_">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## FISHnLAB (2 Oct 2022)

My goodness, this is turning into a nightmare. Trying to source aquasoil for a descent price with free or reasonable shipping in small town Canada is not going to be easy. So, should I be looking for the regular grain sized stuff or the smaller grained/powder types if that's an option? It seams like maybe the small granule type would be easier to plant things in and retain small plants better?

Again, my current plan is coarse nylon mesh bags filled with root tab infused Caribsea Eco-Complete as filler for the back slopes with 3 inches+ of aquasoil cover throughout.


----------



## Hufsa (2 Oct 2022)

While I dont have any hands on experience, the powder (smaller) type is usually recommend for grip on small carpet plants etc, just as you thought. Some do a layer of standard soil below and then cap with powder either all over or in the areas small plants will be


----------



## FISHnLAB (2 Oct 2022)

Hufsa said:


> While I dont have any hands on experience, the powder (smaller) type is usually recommend for grip on small carpet plants etc, just as you thought. Some do a layer of standard soil below and then cap with powder either all over or in the areas small plants will be


Hey Hufsa, thanks for the reply👍. Do you think it would be ok to do all of the fine stuff? The reason I ask is it is going to be extremely hard to find aquasoil as it is, trying to find an online store with free or reasonable shipping, a non-inflated price, and that has both powder and regular size granules in stock will likely be even harder. If it's an option I will try though.


----------



## Hufsa (2 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Do you think it would be ok to do all of the fine stuff?


Yeah I would rather go all fine than all coarse personally


----------



## FISHnLAB (2 Oct 2022)

Oh, another root tab question. What do you guys think of NilocG's tabs? I have just found a source for them at just over 1/3rd the price of Dennis's platinum lined ones🙄.


----------



## FISHnLAB (2 Oct 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Yeah I would rather go all fine than all coarse personally


Copy that. If I can only get one, I will shoot for the powder... Thank you again😁...


----------



## FISHnLAB (2 Oct 2022)

Any one try these... Thanks.

Crystal Clear Thrive Aquatic Plant Fertilizer https://a.co/d/cS8MFX4

These are available to me at $47.99CAD(35.49EUR)for 200.

Maybe I should start a root tab thread?


----------



## FISHnLAB (2 Oct 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Not really, "Biochar" is a bit of a  buzz term, but the definition is "_the solid material obtained from the thermochemical conversion of biomass in an oxygen-limited environment_" which just means it is <"charcoal and ash">, which doesn't sound quite so sexy or exclusive. Biochar / Charcoal does have some Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC),  just how much <"depends on a number of factors">. From Munera-Echeverri, J. _et al._  (2018) "Cation exchange capacity of biochar: An urgent method modification" _Sci Total Environ _*642 *_pp.190-197_
> 
> Which suggests a certain amount of <"smoke and mirrors is involved"> . That is really the thing with nutrients, there isn't any question about aesthetics, or added value, plants can only take up nutrients as ions, and every potassium ion (K+) is the same as every other one whether it came from "APT Jazz" or the cheapest potassium chloride (KCl) sold as "sodium free salt" .


Understood, thanks. 


dw1305 said:


> Basically he is taking advantage of the fact people have some trust in him to sell them a premier priced product. If people know the facts and still want to buy his products, fair enough, but I won't be one of them, and I also think it damages his credibility.


Yeah, that is sad. Maybe I will switch to NilocG or something else going forward out of principle. 


dw1305 said:


> There definitely are potential issues.
> 
> In the case of these types of fertiliser they are entirely soluble, so all nutrients are instantly available. That is why I'm <"very wary of fertilsers containing ammonia (NH3)">. Some aquarium fertilisers contain ammonia, but they are so dilute that it is difficult to tip enough of them into the tank to kill all your livestock, this isn't an issue with dry salts, you get a lot more <"_bang for your buck_">.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Roger that, thanks. 

If you have time to weigh in on my posts about NilocG & the other brand of root tabs I listed, let me know what you think please👍.


----------



## sparkyweasel (2 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Thanks for the reply.


You should probably ignore it now that @Hufsa has found that close-up pic.


----------



## FISHnLAB (2 Oct 2022)

sparkyweasel said:


> You should probably ignore it now that @Hufsa has found that close-up pic.


Copy, thanks👍.


----------



## dw1305 (3 Oct 2022)

Hi all, 


FISHnLAB said:


> What do you guys think of NilocG's tabs?


They look all right. <"NA Thrive Caps Aquarium Plant Root Tabs">.

They don't have a very high nutrient content, so they would still work out relatively expensive.

cheers Darrel


----------



## FISHnLAB (3 Oct 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> They look all right. <"NA Thrive Caps Aquarium Plant Root Tabs">.
> 
> ...


Roger that but, they appear to have a higher NC then Dennis's tabs and are 1/3rd the price. That says something I think. Nilocg is also more transparent with their ingredients.

I think NilocG is a better choice for me going forward even when it comes to liquid fertilizer(unless anyone thinks I won't be successful with Thrive? ) at least until I want to start learning to mix my own. I don't think I will be buying anymore of Dennis's products going forward...


----------



## dw1305 (3 Oct 2022)

Hi all,


FISHnLAB said:


> I think NilocG is a better choice for me going forward


I'd give them a go, they aren't going to do any harm.


FISHnLAB said:


> even when it comes to liquid fertilizer(unless anyone thinks I won't be successful with Thrive? ) at least until I want to start learning to mix my own


I'd have a look at an all in one dry salt mix intended for horticulture.  Something like the Solufeed 2 : 1 : 4 mix <"mentioned earlier in the thread">.  If you <"know the tank size"> and the chemical composition of the fertiliser (below) you can target a value for nitrogen (N) or potassium (K) and everything else should be about right.





cheers Darrel


----------



## FISHnLAB (3 Oct 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'd give them a go, they aren't going to do any harm.


Good to know, thanks.


dw1305 said:


> I'd have a look at an all in one dry salt mix intended for horticulture.  Something like the Solufeed 2 : 1 : 4 mix <"mentioned earlier in the thread">.  If you <"know the tank size"> and the chemcial composition of the fertiliser (below) you can target a value for nitrogen (N) or potassium (K) and everything else should be about right.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll check it out. Seams like a good middle ground between dry salts and an AIO. Thanks👍.

Just so you know, I can easily get kits with all of the dry salts for NPK & Trace and I even have precision scales and chemistry tools already from one of my other hobbies to weigh and mix my own but, I just figured I will wait to learn ferts as I have a ton on my plate already with learning everything else to make a successful heavily planted community tank. I ran the numbers and I'm looking at about $140CAD(105EUR) for a year worth, for all of my tanks, of NilocG's Thrive and Thrive Caps as well as a bottle of Seachem Flourish NPK + Fe + Trace to be able to bump up anything thats showing signs of deficiencies. I figure one of next winters projects will be for me to fully learn how to make my own ferts and root tabs the right way.

What do you think of my plan considering I am ok with paying a premium(within reason) for a quality pre-mixed solution for the first year? Anything to add or constructively criticise?


----------



## dw1305 (3 Oct 2022)

Hi all,


FISHnLAB said:


> What do you think of my plan considering I am ok with paying a premium(within reason) for a quality pre-mixed solution for the first year? Anything to add or constructively criticise?


It should be fine, _an ion is an ion is an ion_, the plants don't care how much they cost. 

Have a look at the <"The scientific background to the  "Leaf Colour Chart""> and <"Duckweed Index">. I use leaf size and colour, in a non-CO2 limited plant, as an indication of when, or whether, I need to add nutrients.

Others will add more fertiliser, this is @Parablennius 's <"Floaters"> thread <".....and yes I'm still, still suffering with Frogbit envy">.





cheers Darrel


----------



## FISHnLAB (3 Oct 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> It should be fine, _an ion is an ion is an ion_, the plants don't care how much they cost.


Roger that. Definitely going to be mixing my own eventually. 


dw1305 said:


> Have a look at the <"The scientific background to the  "Leaf Colour Chart""> and <"Duckweed Index">. I use leaf size and colour, in a non-CO2 limited plant, as an indication of when, or whether, I need to add nutrients.


Interesting. Where can one get one of those colour cards? Learning to read my plants for signs of deficiencies and compensate with ferts is at the top of my learning list right now. 


dw1305 said:


> Others will add more fertiliser, this is @Parablennius 's <"Floaters"> thread <".....and yes I'm still, still suffering with Frogbit envy">.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like Frogbit too and can't wait to get some along with Red Root Floater(I'm going to get both in my plant order for my new tank build) . I'm using Salvinia Aruculata right now. How does it work as an indicator?


----------



## FISHnLAB (3 Oct 2022)

Here is what I'm looking at right now, what do you think? The leaves have gotten larger and they have also stretched out and got more leggy since startup. This Salvinia Aruculata came from a new Tropica 1-2-Grow cup. @dw1305


----------



## FISHnLAB (3 Oct 2022)

Has anyone tried Caribsea Samurai Soil? What did you think? How does it compare to the likes of ADA, Tropica, UNS, Landen? Thanks.


----------



## dw1305 (3 Oct 2022)

Hi all,


FISHnLAB said:


> Where can one get one of those colour cards?


<"This one">.










cheers Darrel


----------



## FISHnLAB (4 Oct 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> <"This one">.
> 
> ...


I meant a physical copy with instructions but, thank you sir👍.

I'm going to check my Nitrate & Phosphate levels tomorrow(day 5 since water change) and hopefully I see more then zero. If not I may have to start supplementing them in addition to the AIO I'm using. It seams weird to me that I am not seeing higher levels considering the very high for tank size bioload I am running but, I'm too big of a rookie to know why😔...

To my untrained eye, my plants look on the light coloured side which would give further evidence towards low Nitrogen at a minimum.


----------



## Hufsa (4 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> I'm going to check my Nitrate & Phosphate levels tomorrow(day 5 since water change) and hopefully I see more then zero. If not I may have to start supplementing them in addition to the AIO I'm using. It seams weird to me that I am not seeing higher levels considering the very high for tank size bioload I am running but, I'm too big of a rookie to know why😔...


Ive been down this road before, earlier on when I got properly into plants. The information is confusing and conflicting and you dont know what to do. The plants always have the facts. The tank and the plants. So if your test kits are giving you weird readings and you know youre putting in nutrients, you know what your fertilizer contains, and your plants are green and growing, then you just need to disregard the tests. Since youre not running CO2 growth will be slow, which means waiting to see if things are perfectly ok or a disaster will feel like agony. Trust in the process, and give your tank time even though its really difficult sometimes 😅 (I just changed my fertilizer recipe a bit, and even with CO2 injection im finding myself sitting at the glass, waiting for the plants to grow because im impatient and I want to see if they grow better)

Hope this helps ease your mind 😊


----------



## Hufsa (4 Oct 2022)

dw1305 said:


> <"This one">.


Its not very often I disagree with Darrel, but it strikes me that this nitrogen chart will not work for every plant, and maybe that needs to be clearly explained to avoid misunderstandings.
Some plants simply do not have the capacity to turn the deepest shades of green. You will never see Sagittaria, Tonina, or Heteranthera with 5 or 6 green color from this scale. Probably not even number 4. Its simply not how those plants look. This chart is for the rice plant specifically.
Our aquatic plants will vary greatly in their normal tone and hue of green color. So what is pale for one plant, lets say Anubias, will be normal color for the Tonina.
Rotala rotundifolia 'Green' is a bright green plant. So is Hygrophila difformis. So it wont turn dark green no matter how much you dose.



FISHnLAB said:


> To my untrained eye, my plants look on the light coloured side which would give further evidence towards low Nitrogen at a minimum.


I think it would be a mistake for @FISHnLAB to interpret the chart to mean that it applies to all his plant species


----------



## FISHnLAB (4 Oct 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Ive been down this road before, earlier on when I got properly into plants. The information is confusing and conflicting and you dont know what to do. The plants always have the right of way. The tank and the plants. So if your test kits are giving you weird readings and you know youre putting in nutrients, you know what your fertilizer contains, and your plants are green and growing, then you just need to disregard the tests. Since youre not running CO2 growth will be slow, which means waiting to see if things are perfectly ok or a disaster will feel like agony. Trust in the process, and give your tank time even though its really difficult sometimes 😅 (I just changed my fertilizer recipe a bit, and even with CO2 injection im finding myself sitting at the glass, waiting for the plants to grow because im impatient and I want to see if they grow better)
> 
> Hope this helps ease your mind 😊


It does a bit but, not fully unfortunately🙁. I can't help but think my plants are getting starved of Nitrogen and Phosphorus and could be doing better if I added more(although they really aren't doing bad). I just really would feel better if testing showed proper levels of both to prove there is an excess so I know everything is uptaking all it can. With a heavily fed Betta and a super hungry Zebra Nerite pooping everywhere you would think I would have an abundance of Nitrates, at a minimum, after 7 days in a 3 gallon but, nope... Zero. Is my plant load really that high to eat it all? Confusing stuff indeed...

So, would it not make sense to up my dosage of Nitrogen and Phosphorus and see if the levels come up? Should I really just wait it out? Do my plants not look a bit light? Maybe I am reading too much into this as they are growing more everyday. Here is the Rotala Green since the last pic I posted. It's growing like a weed...

Thanks for being patient with me and being so helpful Hufsa. I'm learning everyday and enjoying it I just tend to be a bit anal/OCD sometimes with things and really am determined to do the absolute best I can.


----------



## FISHnLAB (4 Oct 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Its not very often I disagree with Darrel, but it strikes me that this nitrogen chart will not work for every plant, and maybe that needs to be clearly explained to avoid misunderstandings.
> Some plants simply do not have the capacity to turn the deepest shades of green. You will never see Sagittaria, Tonina, or Heteranthera with 5 or 6 green color from this scale. Probably not even number 4. Its simply not how those plants look. This chart is for the rice plant specifically.
> Our aquatic plants will vary greatly in their normal tone and hue of green color. So what is pale for one plant, lets say Anubias, will be normal color for the Tonina.
> Rotala rotundifolia 'Green' is a bright green plant. So is Hygrophila difformis. So it wont turn dark green no matter how much you dose.
> ...


Yes, I was thinking all of that too but it is so hard for me because I have never owned or grown any of these plants before to know what they should look like. I am stuck with forum pics and YouTube videos and am sure you know that every display shows colours differently so it is an effort in futility to try and compare lol. I'm sure everyone who decided to jump down the crazy deep rabbit hole of this hobby knows exactly how I feel lol. Hey, but I am not even the slightest bit discouraged and am enjoying the journey very much. In fact, this hobby might have gripped me more then any in years. I see tanks, aquatic plants, and aquatic animals in my life for many years go come...


----------



## Hufsa (4 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> I can't help but think my plants are getting starved of Nitrogen and Phosphate and could be doing better if I added more(although they really aren't doing bad). I just really would feel better if testing showed proper levels of both to prove there is an excess so I know everything is uptaking all it can. With a heavily fed Betta and a super hungry Zebra Nerite pooping everywhere you would think I would have an abundance of Nitrates, arlt a minimum, after 7 days in a 3 gallon but, nope... Zero. Is my plant load really that high to eat it all? Confusing stuff indeed...


All the evidence _except the tests_ are showing that you should have enough. Youre feeding your fish. Youre dosing a fertilizer that is made to cover CO2-injected tanks at the recommended dosing. Youre not using CO2 injection, so your plants will need maybe 1/3rd to 1/10th less than that fertilizer is made for. There is absolutely no way that your plants are starving with that. Your Rotala Green looks very happy to me. Same with the Difformis, the Sagittaria in the foreground (looks like Sag at least).
Test kits have given incorrect readings before. Especially nitrate!
Almost the exact same thing happened to me, which is why I said ive been down this road before. I was running low tech, my plants looked fine, and I was dosing a lot of ferts. Nitrate reading showed none. I threw in even more nitrate, literally poured potassium nitrate into the tank, let it circulate a bit and then tested again. No change. I was confused as heck. I wondered if the biomedia ate all of it since I still believed in the salespitch from Seachem Matrix. I still dont know why the test gave the incorrect results that time. On several occasions. Because there was nitrate in that tank. Later on ive tested Nitrate and it has given the expected reading. Was the other test out of date? Did I somehow mess up the procedure? Some other factor? I have no idea.
*But the plants dont lie.*
I know its really hard but im really trying to help you over this hole that is really easy to fall into.
I come from the fishkeeping side of the hobby where the word of the test kit is law. But then it turns out sometimes its not.



FISHnLAB said:


> Should I really just wait it out?


Please wait it out 😊



FISHnLAB said:


> It's growing like a weed...


Ill personally buy you a new pot of whatever plant you want* if you actually have nitrate and phosphate deficiency and your plants die because of my advice.
(Within reason, I learned my lesson from offering to buy Darrel a beer)



FISHnLAB said:


> Thanks for being patient with me and being so helpful Hufsa. I'm learning everyday and enjoying it I just tend to be a bit anal/OCD sometimes with things and really am determined to do the absolute best I can.


Youve got the right spirit, I can tell 😄 Sometimes a leap of faith is required!


----------



## dw1305 (4 Oct 2022)

Hi all,


Hufsa said:


> Its not very often I disagree with Darrel, but it strikes me that this nitrogen chart will not work for every plant, and maybe that needs to be clearly explained to avoid misunderstandings.
> Some plants simply do not have the capacity to turn the deepest shades of green..............Some plants simply do not have the capacity to turn the deepest shades of green. ............This chart is for the rice plant specifically.


Yes, that is right. It was developed for Rice (_Oryza sativa_), and works pretty well for Duckweed (_Lemna minor_) and Amazon Frogbit (_Limnobium laevigatum_), but <"isn't suitable for every plant">.  Have a look at <"Glasshouse "floating weeds" tank.">

It really has to be a floating plant to use for the Duckweed Index, so that it isn't CO2 limited and it is only _Lemna minor or L. gibba_  that goes that really dark green under large nitrogen loadings.

That is partially why I use leaf size and growth rate as well with _Limnobium laevigatum._

cheers Darrel


----------



## MichaelJ (4 Oct 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Its not very often I disagree with Darrel, but it strikes me that this nitrogen chart will not work for every plant, and maybe that needs to be clearly explained to avoid misunderstandings.
> Some plants simply do not have the capacity to turn the deepest shades of green. You will never see Sagittaria, Tonina, or Heteranthera with 5 or 6 green color from this scale. Probably not even number 4. Its simply not how those plants look. This chart is for the rice plant specifically.
> Our aquatic plants will vary greatly in their normal tone and hue of green color. So what is pale for one plant, lets say Anubias, will be normal color for the Tonina.
> Rotala rotundifolia 'Green' is a bright green plant. So is Hygrophila difformis. So it wont turn dark green no matter how much you dose.



Hi @Hufsa, I do agree with that. However, I do think the chart have merit for judging many species that have a natural tendency to go deeper green when thriving - but you have to use the chart correctly; such as judging relative to the "ideal" leaf color  - say if you leaves are matching patch 2, but should ideally be more like patch 4 - that may point to nitrogen deficiency (or other deficiencies) and is entirely depended on the plant in question. 

Cheers,
Michael


----------



## FISHnLAB (4 Oct 2022)

Hufsa said:


> All the evidence _except the tests_ are showing that you should have enough. Youre feeding your fish. Youre dosing a fertilizer that is made to cover CO2-injected tanks at the recommended dosing. Youre not using CO2 injection, so your plants will need maybe 1/3rd to 1/10th less than that fertilizer is made for. There is absolutely no way that your plants are starving with that. Your Rotala Green looks very happy to me. Same with the Difformis, the Sagittaria in the foreground (looks like Sag at least).


Yes, I think you are right. It's just so hard when you are still learning to know if you are doing it "right". I should probably get an aquatic plant text book to help me learn. Oh, and that is Helanthium Tenellus "Green" in the foreground.


Hufsa said:


> Test kits have given incorrect readings before. Especially nitrate!


Yes, they are only so accurate from what I hear. Especially the liquid test kits. I may get a full set of Hanna Colorimeter style one day...


Hufsa said:


> Almost the exact same thing happened to me, which is why I said ive been down this road before. I was running low tech, my plants looked fine, and I was dosing a lot of ferts. Nitrate reading showed none. I threw in even more nitrate, literally poured potassium nitrate into the tank, let it circulate a bit and then tested again. No change. I was confused as heck. I wondered if the biomedia ate all of it since I still believed in the salespitch from Seachem Matrix. I still dont know why the test gave the incorrect results that time. On several occasions. Because there was nitrate in that tank. Later on ive tested Nitrate and it has given the expected reading. Was the other test out of date? Did I somehow mess up the procedure? Some other factor? I have no idea.


Yep, that's where I'm at minus adding extra phosphate and Nitrate to the tank. Pretty confusing indeed.


Hufsa said:


> *But the plants dont lie.*
> I know its really hard but im really trying to help you over this hole that is really easy to fall into.
> I come from the fishkeeping side where the word of the test kit is law. But then it turns out sometimes its not.


Yes, that's how I started too. I did 3 months of fish keeping before I went planted.


Hufsa said:


> Please wait it out 😊


Will do. I still gave 7 drops APT 3 today. Do you think I should dial it back again?


Hufsa said:


> Ill personally buy you a new pot of whatever plant you want* if you actually have nitrate and phosphate deficiency and your plants die because of my advice.
> (Within reason, I learned my lesson from offering to buy Darrel a beer)


Lol, I'll have a look at that thread after I post. Did he have you buy him a fancy one or something. I'll take an Anubias White Panda please😁...


Hufsa said:


> Youve got the right spirit, I can tell 😄 Sometimes a leap of faith is required!


Well, here I go... 😬


----------



## FISHnLAB (4 Oct 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Yes, that is right. It was developed for Rice (_Oryza sativa_), and works pretty well for Duckweed (_Lemna minor_) and Amazon Frogbit (_Limnobium laevigatum_), but <"isn't suitable for every plant">.  Have a look at <"Glasshouse "floating weeds" tank.">
> 
> ...


Thanks for the clarification Darrel and all of your help👍. How do you think my Salvinia Aruculata will work? I also have Red Root Floater on the way too but, won't have any Amazon Frogbit until my big tank gets here.


----------



## sparkyweasel (4 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> It's growing like a weed...


Focus on that.


----------



## plantnoobdude (4 Oct 2022)

I hope you don’t take this the wrong way but I think you’re massively over complicating things, especially for a Low tech tank. I’ve had my heavily planted Low tech set up for a few months now and I think I’ve dosed fertilisers (NPK+FE) _*once *_when I thought it was needed, I just got a little spoon and dosed some miracle gro. Should be me sorted for a few more weeks. I also use inert substrate+RO water, so it’s not like there are other considerable nutrient factors. 

I would take @Hufsa s advice. Get your all in one and dose it lol.


----------



## dw1305 (5 Oct 2022)

Hi all, 


FISHnLAB said:


> How do you think my Salvinia Aruculata will work?


It works fine in terms of growth and morphology, but you can't really use the greeness aspect.  This is what it looks like with <"plenty of light and nutrients">.





The same applies to Water Lettuce (_Pistia stratiotes_), size and morphology work, but colour doesn't. Water Hyacinth (_Eichornia  crassipes_) would be the "ideal" choice as a nutrient remover, but it is big and a <"_turned up to eleven_ plant">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## FISHnLAB (5 Oct 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> I hope you don’t take this the wrong way but I think you’re massively over complicating things, especially for a Low tech tank. I’ve had my heavily planted Low tech set up for a few months now and I think I’ve dosed fertilisers (NPK+FE) _*once *_when I thought it was needed, I just got a little spoon and dosed some miracle gro. Should be me sorted for a few more weeks. I also use inert substrate+RO water, so it’s not like there are other considerable nutrient factors.
> 
> I would take @Hufsa s advice. Get your all in one and dose it lol.


Everyone enjoys this hobby there own way and I tend to be the type of person that doesn't just want to do something but, give it my all and thrive for the absolute best I can achieve. I tend to refine and optimize everything I own for the absolute best performance within the parameters I set(in this case every bit of tech into this nano tank but, CO2 injection). Half of the fun of the many hobbies I have been into in my life is that optimization and refinement to achieve as close to my definition of perfect as I can. I don't want average planted tanks, I am beginning my, what is going to be a long one, journey into creating world class setups. I am exactly 4 months to the day into owning my first aquarium and 21 days in from planting my first aquatic plants. This is only the beginning, my journey into high tech starts in 1 month...


----------



## FISHnLAB (5 Oct 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> It works fine in terms of growth and morphology, but you can't really use the greeness aspect.  This is what it looks like with <"plenty of light and nutrients">.
> 
> ...


Ok, thank Darrel, that is helpful. So, my Salvinia grows more leggy(further spaced out leaves) due to less light, CO2, and nutrients in the low tech setup?


----------



## dw1305 (5 Oct 2022)

Hi all,


FISHnLAB said:


> So, my Salvinia grows more leggy(further spaced out leaves) due to less ..... CO2 ....?


The advantage of a floating plant is that you can discount CO2 deficiency, any floating, or emergent, plant has access to <"415 ppm of atmospheric CO2">.  It is <"Diana Walstad's "aerial advantage"> and have a look at <"150 ppm co2?">.


FISHnLAB said:


> So, my Salvinia grows more leggy(further spaced out leaves) due to less light.... and Nutrients?


I think so, I also think that light is probably more important than nutrients in terms of the degree of leginess.

This is the <"https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/glasshouse-floating-weeds-tank.70267">.  Which hasn't received a lot of nutrients, but has had a lot of light.

The situation is slightly complicated by the _Azolla caroliniana, _because it has a <"nitrogen fixing cyanobacterial symbiont">, and which will have supplied some "extra" fixed nitrogen.




If the _Salvinia auriculata_ group had more nutrients I would expect the shoots to be much longer before the basal leaves went brown (started senescing) and it would be a bigger plant all around and possibly slightly less "bronzy" in colour.

cheers Darrel


----------



## FISHnLAB (5 Oct 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> The advantage of a floating plant is that you can discount CO2 deficiency, any floating, or emergent, plant has access to 415 ppm of atmospheric CO2.  It is <"Diana Walstad's "aerial advantage"> and <"150 ppm co2?">.


Good to know thanks.


dw1305 said:


> I think so, I also think that light is probably more important than nutrients in terms of the degree of leginess.


Roger. On this note and not pertaining jusy to my salvina, I really wish I owned a PAR meter as I am really finding that knowing if I have enough or too much light for my current setup is challenging. I have a high end LUX meter, would that be of any use?


dw1305 said:


> This is the <"https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/glasshouse-floating-weeds-tank.70267/">.  Which hasn't received a lot of nutrients, but has had a lot of light.
> 
> The situation is slightly complicated by the _Azolla caroliniana, _because it has a <"nitrogen fixing cyanobacterial symbiont">, and which will have supplied some "extra" fixed nitrogen.


Wow, that looks awesome Darrel, super lush. It really seams some plants will actually do better with less nutrients eh...


dw1305 said:


> If the _Salvinia auriculata_ group had more nutrients I would expect the shoots to be much longer before the basal leaves went brown (started senescing) and it would be a bigger plant all around and possibly slightly less "bronzy" in colour.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Thanks for all of your help sir👍.


----------



## dw1305 (5 Oct 2022)

Hi all,


dw1305 said:


> If the _Salvinia auriculata_ group had more nutrients I would expect the shoots to be much longer before the basal leaves went brown (started senescing) and it would be a bigger plant all around and possibly slightly less "bronzy" in colour.


Like this, taken this afternoon.





These are in a N. facing window and have a "Superfish Scaper 45 Light" (that I purchased from @Epiphyte) earlier in the year.

They don't have any fish and receive an extremely _ad hoc _slosh of <"Miracle Gro"> and an <"even more random dose"> of iron chelate (FeEDTA) &  Epsom Salts (MgSO4.7H2O) when the Frogbit looks particularly poor.

If you look at the Frogbit on the extreme left edge of the image (highlighted below) you can see iron deficiency (the leaf with the net pattern pointing up the screen), the yellow leaf, below that one, is missing one or more of the mobile nutrients (and probably potassium (K), nitrogen (N) or magnesium (Mg)) and the newer leaves, below the yellow one,  are ~healthy.

The _Salvinia_ will have suffered in the same way, but you can't really see it. You can also see that the Duckweed (_Lemna minor_) is pale green and that is probably a combination of sub-optimal nutrient levels and soft water.









cheers Darrel


----------



## FISHnLAB (5 Oct 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Like this.
> View attachment 195328
> ...


Interesting stuff. How does keeping it more sparse affect the growth compared to letting it get crowded? I have been keeping it fairly sparse so it can grow like this... I have also noticed that in my 3 gallon it grows larger leaves and more stretched out then in my propagation glass lock with way less light and a denser plot. You can see the ones I just took out of the 3 gallon at the front of the glass lock and how much more leggy they are compared to the others...


----------



## dw1305 (5 Oct 2022)

Hi all,


FISHnLAB said:


> I have a high end LUX meter, would that be of any use?


Yes, a LUX meter is very useful, somewhere about 5000 LUX is <"LCP for most non-shade plants">, and the <"bright tropical sun"> would be in the hundreds of thousands.

cheers Darrel


----------



## FISHnLAB (5 Oct 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Yes, a LUX meter is very useful, somewhere about 5000 LUX is <"LCP for most non-shade plants">, and the <"bright tropical sun"> would be in the hundreds of thousands.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Thanks, that was helpful👍. I followed your links and read it all. I especially found the parts about long and dim vs short and bright interesting and want to learn more about this.

So, how would I measure? My meter is not waterproof so can I just place its probe the same distance from my light as the plants LCP I am targeting in open air to get a measurement? 

Maybe I'll fail miserably but, I am trying to maintain a 12/12H cycle. I currently am running lights on from 10 - 2200hours with a 30 minute soft ramp on and off and a 1 hour 5%Red/5%White dusk and dawn period at each end to kind of mimic nature. So, 10 hours of bright light per day & 2 hours very dim and red. Think this is a fools errand? It seams possible considering guys like MD Fish Tanks on YouTube runs his lights for 12-14hours per day on all of his low tech setups successfully for the most part. 

Just fyi, I am running a Nicrew RGB-W 24/7 12-14". Specs... 

600 Lumen
4000 LUX@12"(open air) 
60 PAR@12"(open air) 

I am running as follows... 

White - 55%
Red - 90%
Green - 30%
Blue - 30%

What do you think? Too bright? Too dim? Thanks Darrel👍.


----------



## dw1305 (5 Oct 2022)

Hi all, 


FISHnLAB said:


> So, how would I measure?


I'd just put the meter about 60 cm from the light , just in the  air, and see what it says.


FISHnLAB said:


> What do you think? Too bright? Too dim?


I don't know, but I'm definitely going to say <"_not too bright_">.  

That is why I like a floating plant, <"they are adapted to bright light"> and  not CO2 limited, so you are <"unlikely to fry them">. I just have more plants if I have a brighter light, but <"I don't  care about aesthetics"> or seeing the fish etc.





cheers Darrel


----------



## FISHnLAB (6 Oct 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'd just put the meter about 60 cm from the light , just in the  air, and see what it says.


Roger, will do. 


dw1305 said:


> I don't know, but I'm definitely going to say <"_not too bright_">.


I think it is going to take me some time to learn just how bright "too bright" is unfortunately. It's hard for me because I have no where to see a planted tank in real life other then a couple of Java Ferns or Water Wisteria at the local Pet store. 


dw1305 said:


> That is why I like a floating plant, <"they are adapted to bright light"> and  not CO2 limited, so you are <"unlikely to fry them">. I just have more plants if I have a brighter light, but <"I don't  care about aesthetics"> or seeing the fish etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, there definitely needs to be a balance doesn't there. It must be even harder to learn the balance once you add CO2 into the mix too.


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## FISHnLAB (20 Oct 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> The advantage of a floating plant is that you can discount CO2 deficiency, any floating, or emergent, plant has access to <"415 ppm of atmospheric CO2">.  It is <"Diana Walstad's "aerial advantage"> and have a look at <"150 ppm co2?">.
> 
> ...


Hey Darrel, can I get your opinion on this please? I've been using your method and I see in one of my propagation/experiment tanks(a 1L beaker) that the new growth on my Salvinia Aruculata is coming out light green or even yellowy now so I am thinking a have a deficiency? I haven't changed anything other then I started adding Seachem Excel to all of my tanks 1 week ago. Nitrogen? Iron? What do you think? What should I change?

This tank currently houses a large Anubias Hastifolia and 3 different Philippine Java Fern clippings stuck to a piece of Red Moor Root I am trying to revive and propagate(it's going well).
Thanks for your help again sir👍.


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## FISHnLAB (20 Oct 2022)

Oh, it gets fed daily...

1 drop The 2HR Aquarist APT 3
1 drop of Seachem Flourish Advance
1 drop of Seachem Excel

2 x 50% Water Changes per week.

Lights are probably a little on the high side but, no algae.


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## FISHnLAB (20 Oct 2022)

More evidence of deficiency on the new growth of my Philippine Java Fern in the same tank? 



The top half is more translucent then the bottom.


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## plantnoobdude (20 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> More evidence of deficiency on the new growth of my Philippine Java Fern in the same tank?
> View attachment 195992
> The top half is more translucent then the bottom.


I believe that’s just how Java ferns grow, I’ll tag @Hufsa as she has more experience with Java ferns.


FISHnLAB said:


> Hey Darrel, can I get your opinion on this please? I've been using your method and I see in one of my propagation/experiment tanks(a 1L beaker) that the new growth on my Salvinia Aruculata is coming out light green or even yellowy now so I am thinking a have a deficiency? I haven't changed anything other then I started adding Seachem Excel to all of my tanks 1 week ago. Nitrogen? Iron? What do you think? What should I change?
> 
> This tank currently houses a large Anubias Hastifolia and 3 different Philippine Java Fern clippings stuck to a piece of Red Moor Root I am trying to revive and propagate(it's going well).
> Thanks for your help again sir👍.
> View attachment 195989


These floaters look *fine   *Ish. The new growth looks a little pale but they may colour up as the leaves mature. In any case,  new pale leaves means Fe, Mn issues.


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## Hufsa (20 Oct 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> I believe that’s just how Java ferns grow, I’ll tag @Hufsa as she has more experience with Java ferns.


Yes the tips will be translucent on young leaves. When the leaves are this small its difficult to tell if they are deficient or just growing still. 
Any potential chlorosis will be more easy to see once the leaf has reached approximately full size, then you will want to look at the area below where the translucent area used to be. The very tips will usually always be slightly lighter even in normal java fern.



plantnoobdude said:


> In any case,  new pale leaves means Fe, Mn issues.





FISHnLAB said:


> View attachment 195989


Indeed its quite clear in the pictures that the color difference is in new growth, to find the new end on these floaters that grow like string lights, look for the end where the leaves are coming out.
Since its in the new growth and not the old, it could indicate a non mobile nutrient.


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## FISHnLAB (20 Oct 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> I believe that’s just how Java ferns grow, I’ll tag @Hufsa as she has more experience with Java ferns.


Ok, thanks. 


plantnoobdude said:


> These floaters look *fine   *Ish. The new growth looks a little pale but they may colour up as the leaves mature. In any case,  new pale leaves means Fe, Mn issues.


I have been growing this Salvinia for over a month and this is the first I've seen of yellowy leaves. I have it in 6 other tanks as well and the others aren't yellowing or at least not near as much. This indicates to me something is wrong in this particular tank and considering it has two different fast growing broad leaf species, I'm guessing some type of nutrient is low. But, I am too new to know what it is lol. Maybe Iron or Mag like you say. I'll have to keep researching how to deal with this before it becomes a problem. I'm trying to get these Java ferns and hastifolia perfect for my new tank build so I would like to sort it out asap before any damage is done or I will have to trim the leaves and start over again.


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## FISHnLAB (20 Oct 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Yes the tips will be translucent on young leaves. When the leaves are this small its difficult to tell if they are deficient or just growing still.
> Any potential chlorosis will be more easy to see once the leaf has reached approximately full size, then you will want to look at the area below where the translucent area used to be. The very tips will usually always be slightly lighter even in normal java fern.


Ok, good to know. Thanks Hufsa👍. 


Hufsa said:


> Indeed its quite clear in the pictures that the color difference is in new growth, to find the new end on these floaters that grow like string lights, look for the end where the leaves are coming out.
> Since its in the new growth and not the old, it could indicate a non mobile nutrient.


Could it be too much of something or likely not enough? Could it be light or CO2 related? Any ideas on how to proceed? I really want to keep these broad leaves perfect and lush for transfer to my new build. I have been slowly cutting off the old growth as new leaves form so I have all nice new leaves. It's been working great until now and I have beautiful new leaves on all of the plants with no signs of deficiency(especially now that I know that translucent tips are not lol). 

Thanks again for your help Hufsa👍.


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## Hufsa (20 Oct 2022)

FISHnLAB said:


> Could it be light or CO2 related? Any ideas on how to proceed?


Id try a KISS solution first and just try adding a little bit more and see if that helps


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## FISHnLAB (20 Oct 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Id try a KISS solution first and just try adding a little bit more and see if that helps


Roger that. That was my first though as well(I started adding 2 drops APT 3 instead of one yesterday😁)  How long should it take to see results? Do I have to wait for new leaf growth again or will the current leaves get greener?


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## FISHnLAB (20 Oct 2022)

I'm going to order a Nutrafin Iron Test Kit(works for both chealated and non-chealated iron) today as well just so I can eliminate that and add it to my testing supplies kit...


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