# New to 'dirt' tank... looking for some soil advise



## Jake Senior

I'm planning to dirt my new 300 litre tank and have done a lot of reading... mostly US sites. The most popular and preferred choice of 'soil' seems to be Miracle Gro Organic potting mix. However it seems here in the UK it's John Innes No 3... 

The MG Organic mix doesn't seem to be available in the UK so I'll go with John Innes. However... my question is which John Innes 3 is best to go for???

Forgive my ignorance but do I look for an Organic John Innes or is by definition John Innes 3 organic anyway... obviously being new to this I want to get it right and not pick a 'soil' that's going to kill any fish I put in the tank because it's loaded with inorganic fertilisers and additives.

Can anyone give my a brand/make that they have had success with? 

Thanks.

Btw my plan is to have an inch of 'soil', capped with half an inch of flourite (red and dark mix) and an inch of black gravel... any comments on this would be appreciated too.


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## Samjpikey

Hey man , 
I have this in my tank capped with black sand , 
£4.00 for 50litres from b and q 
 Miracle-Gro Organic Choice Potato & Vegetable Gro-Sac 50L

 100%chemical free 100% organic  
Hope this helps


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## Henry

I used the B&Q basics stuff. £1 a bag. I think it did leach ammonia, however, so you may want to soak it. Its free of additives due to being so cheap.


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## Samjpikey

I have used the miracle grow for a long time and the only fish deaths I've had was due to over dosing on co2 ,


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## ceg4048

By far, more fish die from organic pollution in a tank than anything else. Organic does not save you. It's just as deadly.

Cheers,


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## Henry

ceg4048 said:


> By far, more fish die from organic pollution in a tank than anything else. Organic does not save you. It's just as deadly.
> 
> Cheers,


 
While I agree with what you're saying, you are ignoring the context of the question. The organic pollutants involved with using compost tend to be expected. As such, we can resolve the problem without too much hassle. Using compost with added fertilisers can have entirely different implications due to the nature of what is added to it.

The safest way to start a dirt tank is without fish. If you can get the plants growing well, chances are its an environment safe for fish.
In my experience, very fine gravel or sand isn't a good idea over soil; it's best to have good flow and maybe some trumpet snails to keep things circulated.


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## ceg4048

How does the resolution differ based on organic content versus inorganic content of the sediment? Any tank is best started without fish, and, if you're not adding fish then it doesn't really matter whether you use compost with organic or inorganic content. The OP specifically stated that he was worried about the impact on fauna, indicating that he intended to add fish.

For any startup, regardless of organic/inorganic content, it's best to not add any fauna and to give one's self time figure out how to grow plants. Plenty of water changes, plenty of plants and keeping the lighting intensity reduced is the best way. There is no worry at at all regarding inorganic content of the sediment if these principles are followed.

Cheers,


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## Henry

I'd sooner trust an organic compound than an inorganic compound in what is essentially a closed ecosystem. Speaking strictly from experience, I have had no problem with introducing flora and fauna to a tank with a substrate which consisted of organic materials. There was the odd algae bloom, but nothing that rapid plant growth couldn't see off.
I remain neutral on the subject of whether using organic over inorganic is significant, but I'd sooner use something natural; something I, and many   others have experience and success with.


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## ceg4048

There are a lot of natural things that cause great damage in the tank. Your faith in organic substances is entirely misplaced because most of the problems that you have in your tank is a direct result of the organic products in the tank. What happens though is that when you do have a problem, you will tend to blame the cause on something inorganic rather than organic.

Nothing about your tank is natural, even though natural processes occur, the system itself is unnatural and as a result, many of those natural processes poison the closed loop system. Organic products in a tank rot, produce inorganic ammonia and also deplete the water column of oxygen at the same time. The effects are wide ranging, not only algae and diseases, but also hypoxia. So while you and many others may think that everything organic is automatically OK, this is actually an illusion. Again, this is not to say that soils or organic substrates are bad, only that they do not guarantee success and that the hobbyist must be aware of the issues regardless of substrate choice.

Within this context, inorganic fertilizers are better than organic fertilizers in the sense that they do not produce the rotting, the conversion and the attendant hypoxic conditions. In other ways, an organic substrate is better than inorganic products because of the CO2 production through bacterial action, which, some plants, depending on the species, can take advantage of. Also important to note is that plants absolutely cannot uptake organic forms of nutrition, despite what organic lovers might wish to believe. ALL nutrition must first be converted to an inorganic form in order for the plant to use it; ammonia/ammonium, CO2, nitrate, phosphate, potassium and trace elements metallic ions are all INORGANIC. It is the breakdown of organic proteins and the chemical conversion of those organic species into inorganic ionic forms by bacterial metabolism that allow the plant to feed. The reason organic compost and soils are good is that they have an abundance of these inorganic materials, but they are locked up in organic proteins and are inaccessible to the plant. These proteins must first be broken down by rotting BEFORE the plant can access the raw inorganic materials. It is that rotting that does the damage. That is the main reason large and frequent water changes help.

So there are many examples of well run tanks using organic substrates and many examples of well run tanks using inorganic substrates, but simply choosing organic versus inorganic is not enough. For every successful tank using either method, there are thousands of disasters using either method. It's all the other choices and decisions collectively that determine whether the tank is a success or not.

So, contrary to what you have concluded, I am actually giving context to the OP; that substrate's inorganic content is not an issue to worry about when choosing a substrate, it is how he manages the tank, such as water changes, maintenance, care with lighting, CO2/flow and so forth that will determine success.

Cheers,


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## Henry

Righto. You've made your point. I can see this is an area in which you have a great deal of knowledge.

I've grown a wide range of plants in deep soil substrates in a brightly lit tank with no flow (except the movement of fish), no water changes (except topping up), no CO2, and almost no maintenance. The plants were allowed to grow wild, and the fish were fed heavily.
I'm speaking from personal experience, and since I have never used anything but "organic"/no added fertiliser soil (this stuff, in fact B&Q Value Multipurpose Compost 10L, 0000003550823) I cannot comment on anything else. I would be hesitant to use something that has been enriched with chemicals that I have no experience of. While they may be of benefit to plants, aquatic or terrestrial, I wouldn't want to risk possible ill-effects to my fish.

I know what has worked for me. I don't know what effect "non-organic" compost would have, but personally would not want to take the risk. I'm in the hobby to care for my plants, and my fish. I would never risk one to improve the other.


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## ceg4048

Hi,
   Well of course it depends specifically on what compounds a sediment contains, however, many aquatic sediments are not organic. For example, ADA Aquasoil, EcoComplete, Flourite, Akadama, Kitty litter are all predominantly inorganic substrates. In fact they are all clay granules, and in aquascaping, most people avoid organic compost specifically because it is very messy. Their tanks are constantly being revised, plants are constantly being uprooted and repositioned for best aesthetic effect. In a CO2 enriched aquascaping tank, where things are not simply left to grow wild, but are instead manicured and micro-managed, compost and organic sediments are a major disadvantage because of the messiness.

Clay sediments are highly desirableness because of the relative ease with which the aquascape can be rearranged without causing cleanliness problems.

Aquatic plants feed from both the sediment as well as directly from the water column, so it is not necessary to have a fertile organic sediment . One can simply dose the water column with inorganic nutrients and the plants will do the rest. I and many others use this principle with amazing results and there are no detrimental effects to the fish or plants. This is a point that people really need to consider. Again, I am not decrying the use of organic compost, but what I am saying is that there are successful inorganic alternatives that can be advantageous depending on one's objectives, that we need not fear  the inorganic alternatives or additives because they are very useful and that we actually imprison ourselves and limit our options if we are not open to the idea.

In fact, not to rain on your organic parade, but closer inspection of the MSDS (safety sheet) for that product reveals that in fact there are inorganic fertilizers added along with inorganic clays, sand grit, limestone, oyster shell, charcoal as well as a mysterious and unspecified "wetting agent", which is probably organic but could also be something as simple as soap or washing up liquid.

Here is my standard stock photo showing an example of the variety of plants grown using inorganic methods, using a combination of clay and inert gravel. Nutrition was all by inorganic dosing of the water column. Zero algae, zero fish diseases, few deaths (except for CO2 toxicity, predation and jumping).
There are many more examples on this forum. In fact, MOST of the aquascaped tanks here use inorganic sediments and inorganic chemical methods. Fear of "chemicals" is completely unfounded. One has to understand what chemical compounds are there and what their effects are in order to assess their value or risk.









Cheers,


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## Henry

Dirt tanks are an entirely different method to those which incorporate a dosing regimen. I think you're being slightly narrow minded on which route people should take when they set up their tanks. An enormous number of people have a great deal of success using a "dirt substrate", without any dosing whatsoever.
I too can boast no fish diseases or deaths, but have algae growing in most of my tanks, and that's just the way I like it. It is a valuable food source for many of the species I keep. I have had every species I keep breed in these tanks, since they are balanced by natural methods; I could happily leave these tanks unfed, unfertilised, and without water changes, were it not for evaporation.

I agree that inorganic fertilisers have a great deal of value in planted tanks, but there is also a lot to be said for soil substrates, and choosing the right one is essential.

I think when you use the terms "organic" and "inorganic", you might be referring to a more scientific definition than I am. I am referring to the fact that it is free from any artificial wetting agents, and such, that may not be broken down in the planted aquarium. These could be harmful to fish or plants, and are best avoided. This is why I have always used the most basic of composts, hence the B&Q own-brand.

I get the impression we may have discussed this far beyond the original poster's question


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## Jake Senior

Wow, I haven't logged on for a while and it seems there has been quite a discussion. Thanks for all your comments I've read them all with interest. I intend to go down a route which mixes both inorganic and organic it seems... I was more interested in which brand of compost to go for but it seems I was worrying too much.

After much reading I'm going to get Westlands Aquatic compost, mix it with Westlands John Innes 3 and add laterite and Black Flourite... roughly 50:25:25 ration - I reckon I've pretty much covered all the bases. I intend to plant once (give or take a few tweaks), allow the tank to establish before adding fish and still regularly water change.

Thanks again for all you comments...really fascinating


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