# Chihiros RGB VIVID 2 - First impressions video



## George Farmer

Hi all,

I know there's a few of you with some experience of these units already but I thought I'd share my video. Interested to hear your feedback. 

It was interesting to read that most of my audience that commented preferred the Twinstar 1200, or even Kessil A360we Tuna Sun.

One thing I did notice after watching the video is that the camera does seem to struggle to pick out the diverse range in colours when compared to the Twinstar.

Take care!
George


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## Nick72

Thanks for the review @George Farmer 

They retail for just under 300 pounds here in Malaysia, so hopefully not much more when they arrive in the UK.

I have to say I'm very tempted to replace my Fluval Plant 3.0 with one of these.

Do you think one unit would happily cover a 900x450x450?


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## DeepMetropolis

Cool lights.. Yes the twinstar looked better colorwise in the vids.. But I just watched on my phone.

Shame there aren't aquashops that display all kinds of light for comparison just like TV shops.. But then it would be an expensive and large store.. 

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G920F met Tapatalk


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## becks

I like mine, I got them because I like the rendition of the ADA Solar but I did not want to pay that much for the light.  They are different to Kessil and twin star, Kessil I find really brings out the greens etc. It depends on what you want.  I find them very clinical and produces a very natural light imo. 

I run mine on 30% for 6 hours with a 1.5 hour ramp because I have low light plants


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## CooKieS

Loving mine too. They sell for 340€ from authorised retailer here in France, that's a lot of bang for the bucks.

The thing is, you could always mimic the pinkish/yellowish rendition of the twinstar with the chihiros vivid 2 by cutting the greens with the app. 

I've to say that the rendition is superb in person, like the Ada solar RGB, you'll have to compare those light in person to give you an idea. Hope this will be possible soon for you guys in UK


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## Gill

Will be getting these when available, As used to the fluval plant ones i have and the Chihiros


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## Wookii

George Farmer said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I know there's a few of you with some experience of these units already but I thought I'd share my video. Interested to hear your feedback.
> 
> It was interesting to read that most of my audience that commented preferred the Twinstar 1200, or even Kessil A360we Tuna Sun.
> 
> One thing I did notice after watching the video is that the camera does seem to struggle to pick out the diverse range in colours when compared to the Twinstar.
> 
> Take care!
> George




Good vid George. I have the Chihiros WRGB II which uses the same LED's as the Vivid II, and my experiences is similar to the points you have noted. The saturation intensity is off the charts, and I do like the look of my aquarium with these RGB lights on, but I can't help but feel something is missing. There's something ever so slightly unnatural with the colour rendition. Dropping the green helps, but it still isn't quote there. I think the issue is the very narrow spikes in the colour spectrum for red, green and blue means there is a reduced shading between colours.

For example, the red LED's can tend to make anything orange colour shift to red (my Ember tetras being a good example look more red than orange), and the range of green shades seems to get shifted into more of a narrow band. I do wish for something that Chihiros has included some Neutral White LED's on their RGB fixtures with independent control, to allow some of the intermediate colours to be brought back in to the owner taste.

I've not seen the ADA Solar RGB in action myself yet, but I imagine it's colour rendition is similar. I assume you've seen them, how would you say they compare to the Vivid II?

I have also compared to the Kessil A360X, and that just couldn't compete, it was just far too yellow in light, and not enough red and green. I think part of the issue is that many lights on the market don't get the ratio right between the  number of Red, Green and Blue LEDS they use versus the quantity of white LED's. The Kessil would have been a great light if they'd dropped the number of warm white LED's and doubled the number of independent Red and Green LED's (and also god rid of the fan whine).

EDIT: Incidentally Chirhiros also told me that UK buyers can currently purchase directly from them. The Vivid II was quoted to me at $380 including delivery, which is about £310 at Paypal rates (bearing in mind VAT and duty may or may not need to be added to that).


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## oreo57

Wookii said:


> but I can't help but feel something is missing. There's something ever so slightly unnatural with the colour rendition. Dropping the green helps, but it still isn't quote there. I think the issue is the very narrow spikes in the colour spectrum for red, green and blue means there is a reduced shading between colours.


Yes, that is fairly typical of  RGB based LED's..
"Personally" not my favorite look.. Too many shades missing vs a more  balanced spectrum ..
RGB are punchy, grow things well, and are generally well liked as to look BUT...
missing or low shades..
I  look at it as so many shades blend to one.
There are arguments about this right and left and even companies selling RGB as full spectrum. I.E





not sure where " Similar to natural sun light " comes from. not the sunlight I know.. 










Kudos to put the RGB in one chip though..

Oh and by tailoring the outputs at full they do each have a fairly different base look.. From magenta to cyan-ish to light blue .


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## rebel

Does this mean that you need even more chips like 6500k or 3000k to be in the mix for perfection?


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## oreo57

rebel said:


> Does this mean that you need even more chips like 6500k or 3000k to be in the mix for perfection?


Yes and no..  most white LED's are really poor in the blue/cyan range so you only get it 1/2 "fixed".. 
Anyways it's really not perfection per se.. just a way of looking at it..
Newest BridgeluxEB Thrive chips.
This one is 6500k . 
Note like most of the high CRI 6500k Bridgelux emitters they are mostly on paper meaning
actually DIY-ing something with them is near impossible.. 
Basically a royal blue pump w/ RGB phosphors. Possibly a few regular blue emitters (second blue peak).
The exact makeup isn't known to me but everything to the right of the blue peaks is def. phosphors.
Dotted line is roughly one point of daylight..
Note the patch in the upper left. almost a  "pure white" tone.. 
 Color : #FFFEF4
https://www.color-hex.com/color/fffef4

Keep in mind these are just estimates..







It boils down to a style of ones choice..
a want not a need...


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## rebel

oreo57 said:


> high CRI 6500k Bridgelux emitters they are mostly on paper meaning


What did you mean here? Did you mean, they are high CRI only on paper = not really high CRI in reality?


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## rebel

@oreo57 You are correct in saying that's it's difficult to achieve and even what each person's preference lies.

I tried to modify my Chihiros A series light and got reasonable but not perfect results. I wish for more red,maybe blue with less yellow.

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/modding-the-chihiros-a-series-to-include-rgb-led.55743/

Wierdly, when I switched off green led (in the RGB), I don't like the look! I am not sure what I like or how to achieve it. I am afraid of paying $600 for RGB2 and not liking it!! or heaven (currently Australia) forbid $1600 for ADA RGB.


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## oreo57

rebel said:


> What did you mean here? Did you mean, they are high CRI only on paper = not really high CRI in reality?



Sorry, meant they have catalog numbers but any normal sources (Aroow,Digikey,Mouser) doesn't ever have them in stock, be able to buy small lots, or are not  way more expensive than more common ones like 5000k. 
At least that has been my experience..
Currently they are supposed to put them in strips which is way more convenient than the bigger COB's. Not holding my breath though..


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## oreo57

rebel said:


> @oreo57 You are correct in saying that's it's difficult to achieve and even what each person's preference lies.
> 
> I tried to modify my Chihiros A series light and got reasonable but not perfect results. I wish for more red,maybe blue with less yellow.
> 
> https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/modding-the-chihiros-a-series-to-include-rgb-led.55743/
> 
> Wierdly, when I switched off green led (in the RGB), I don't like the look! I am not sure what I like or how to achieve it. I am afraid of paying $600 for RGB2 and not liking it!! or heaven (currently Australia) forbid $1600 for ADA RGB.



ADA's no better and not adjustable but if you don't want yellow.. afaict they run cool.
W/ RGB just depends on how you design the 3 colors.








Can you see why your Chihiros "white only" looks yellow?
Typical white diode behind the RGB peaks.

Best simple combo in a simple light from my perspective is 7000K white and 660nm red..
Generally a crisp white w/ good red enhancement.
Finnex planted plus (Finnex Fugeray Planted Plus or whatever, NOT the 24/7 versions though that is another story ).

Another warning, people do have different sensitivities to colors so it's a "Your mileage may vary" type of thing.
I ran an older version of this (no blues) on one of my tanks. Was called the Fugeray R.


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## rebel

oreo57 said:


> ADA's no better and not adjustable but if you don't want yellow.. afaict they run cool.


Yes this is what I hear and seen. it's hard to believe what you see on your screen due to calibration issues on both sides when making videos or photos.

I agree with you that 'high CRI' leds are not really easily bought on ali express etc and getting consistent BINS on two different leds could be very tricky.

I have seen two ADA lights side by side on one of the videos of GreenAqua and they had slightly different tints!!


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## oreo57

For fun.


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## oreo57

rebel said:


> Yes this is what I hear and seen. it's hard to believe what you see on your screen due to calibration issues on both sides when making videos or photos.
> 
> I agree with you that 'high CRI' leds are not really easily bought on ali express etc and getting consistent BINS on two different leds could be very tricky.
> 
> I have seen two ADA lights side by side on one of the videos of GreenAqua and they had slightly different tints!!


Yes, color temp of cameras and built in post processing throws things off. Also the camera responds differently than ones eye..
I do my best to avoid anything that looks err "wrong" compared to what I expect.

If I post "my stuff" it has been color corrected to look like I see it.
Granted I also color correct my monitor which won't reflect everyones monitor either.
There is no good way to post images, thus I rely a lot on spectrum  charts. Those don't lie, for the most part.  Some may argue that point.

Last problem is tannins, even minor amounts push tanks to "yellow"..

This is what my old light on the 40b looked like in real life.
You do need a bit of faith.. 
660nm red, cyan, royal blue, 3000K white, 6500k white
Yea, I'm not really a "scaper".. 
always looks for something you know the color of.. like the Eheim tube, grey heater to judge the realism of the photo.
note the 100's of guppies, a long story.


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## rebel

oreo57 said:


> Last problem is tannins, even minor amounts push tanks to "yellow"..


This could be my issue as I have plenty of wood in the tank.

With the calibration, yes I used to use Spyder and calibrate my IPS monitor (99% sRGB). These days I can't be bothered and my monitor is yellowing on the sides... 

Your tank looks muddy to me, much like mine at times. It may well be Tannins... I dislike that yellow look though. I prefer crisp whatever that means in color science.

I also saw your recommendation of 7000+660. I need to see whether I can find some 7000. 660 is fairly easy to find. I can potentially add a row of 1W LEDs instead of those strip lights and try again. I already have 660 1W available. Just for kicks and giggles.

That Fugeray looks CRISP!


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## rebel

Maybe we need pics of lights with the standard colour charts that they use in photography.


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## oreo57

rebel said:


> This could be my issue as I have plenty of wood in the tank.
> 
> 
> 
> Your tank looks muddy to me, much like mine at times. It may well be Tannins... I dislike that yellow look though. I prefer crisp whatever that means in color science.
> 
> I also saw your recommendation of 7000+660. I need to see whether I can find some 7000. 660 is fairly easy to find. I can potentially add a row of 1W LEDs instead of those strip lights and try again. I already have 660 1W available. Just for kicks and giggles.
> 
> That Fugeray looks CRISP!


Since this is over 7 years old I can't guarantee its authenticity but I assume this is more of what you are aiming at.
Kind of how they start but don't , for me, always end up looking like that..

Even without wood some tannins (or whatever pigments from dead leaves/detris) always work their way in.
Another hint, don't use orangy gravels..


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## oreo57

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/modding-the-chihiros-a-series-to-include-rgb-led.55743/page-2

Should have read this b4 all my comments.. You've been down this road before..

couple of comments for the above photos..
The "muddy" one was running the 3000k diodes as you can see. Really cheap. Basically all yellow phosphor.
Last one is labelled 6500k so I assume just those diodes were on. It's sort of surprising since normally it won't look THAT white.
Doesn't look like any of the other colors were on.


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## Wookii

rebel said:


> Does this mean that you need even more chips like 6500k or 3000k to be in the mix for perfection?



No, adding any type of white LED just ruins the colour rendition, I've tried. White LED's just end up washing out the other colours, losing saturation, and push everything back to yellow (even cool white LED's).

All the lights I have tried produce the same effect, including the Twinstar 600S, AI Prime Freshwater, Fluval Plant 3.0 and Kessil A360X. They all use white LED's of varying types, and all lack the kind of colour saturation the RGB LED's provide.

I suspect they only way to improve the RGB colour rendition is to broaden the RGB peaks without adding in too much yellow. Maybe by combining other single colour LED's like Royal Blue, Red/Orange, and Green LED's with differing nm centre frequencies, maybe even low output amber and cyan LED's - or maybe future manufacturing techniques that give RGB chips broader output on each channel.

For now though, I think RGB is as good as it gets with current tech as far as I have tested.


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## oreo57

Wookii said:


> I suspect they only way to improve the RGB colour rendition is to broaden the RGB peaks without adding in too much yellow. Maybe by combining other single colour LED's like Royal Blue, Red/Orange, and Green LED's with differing nm centre frequencies, maybe even low output amber and cyan LED's - or maybe future manufacturing techniques that give RGB chips broader output on each channel.
> 
> For now though, I think RGB is as good as it gets with current tech as far as I have tested.





> * MIXING LIST
> ----------------------------------------
> LED Blue (470nm) [120°] x1
> LED Cyan (500nm) [120°] x1
> LED Green (530nm) [120°] x1
> LED Amber (590nm) [120°] x1
> LED Red (620nm) [120°] x1
> ----------------------------------------
> 
> * SIMULATION DATA
> ----------------------------------------
> Luminous flux : 300 lm
> Radiant flux : 1,035 mW
> PPF : 4.6 umol/s
> TCP : 6250 K
> CRI : 90
> λp : 472 nm
> Color : #FFF9F2


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## Wookii

oreo57 said:


> View attachment 151827




Not nearly enough green in that graph. Interesting though - what software are you using to model that output - or is it actually measured?

Are you anything to do with SBReef lights by any chance? I’ve seen those graphs on their site.


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## oreo57

Wookii said:


> Not nearly enough green in that graph. Interesting though - what software are you using to model that output - or is it actually measured?
> 
> Are you anything to do with SBReef lights by any chance? I’ve seen those graphs on their site.


http://spectra.1023world.net/#save

Just use generic led's..
Actually plenty of green.. Same as any RGB array..


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## oreo57

Wookii said:


> Not nearly enough green in that graph. Interesting though - what software are you using to model that output - or is it actually measured?
> 
> Are you anything to do with SBReef lights by any chance? I’ve seen those graphs on their site.


Composite w/ ADA RGB..
ADA colors are inverted.
Because of the cyan just more blue-green to green-blue.
Yellow is in short supply.
But.. it is an estimate..
with a color temp of 6350 and a CRI of 90 specs really good.


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## rebel

Wookii said:


> No, adding any type of white LED just ruins the colour rendition, I've tried. White LED's just end up washing out the other colours, losing saturation, and push everything back to yellow (even cool white LED's).


The washout effect is due to the eye being more sensitive to yellow and green?

How would you widen the RGB spectra. You'd have to add each individual colours to 'fill' the void isn't it? This could expensive/tedious fast.

Any suggestions on what sort of RGB diodes one could try to DIY a light? My only hangup is that I want it to look schmick but can't find really nice looking heatsinks for my projects. I could put in some 1W RGB diodes to my Chihiros heatsink. It might just be ok if I space them out and drive them at 350ma.


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## oreo57

rebel said:


> The washout effect is due to the eye being more sensitive to yellow and green?


Partly.. it's just glare..Simulation, just adjusted brightness up
Since all the "colors" are present what's left?
Beam white light to a leaf and it returns green, same w/ a green LED
Same w/ the difference between photographs on a cloudy day vs clear :






This tank was running 4000k Luminous Devices COB's (thus the yellow)  and one 5000K SORRA ( I think)




rebel said:


> How would you widen the RGB spectra. You'd have to add each individual colours to 'fill' the void isn't it? This could expensive/tedious fast.
> Any suggestions on what sort of RGB diodes one could try to DIY a light? My only hangup is that I want it to look schmick but can't find really nice looking heatsinks for my projects. I could put in some 1W RGB diodes to my Chihiros heatsink. It might just be ok if I space them out and drive them at 350ma.


Listed that above.. Red,Green,Cyan, Amber, Blue. Exact wavelengths aren't really that important.
Some would skip cyan though PERSONALLY that would be a mistake.

Luxeon developed  Lime and PCAmber to avoid the efficiency penalty of green and amber diodes.
They  are  phosphor converted blue pump diodes. Blue being the most efficient diode.
https://www.digikey.com/en/articles/lime-green-leds-encourage-color-tunable-lighting
Old article and the section on CRI doesn't apply anymore..

Anyways fullish spectrum w/ no whites.
Low K so output needs to be tailered.
91CRI is not judged against d65. D65 would only be 61 so far from "daylight'
You would need the blue output 3x the others


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## rebel

oreo57 said:


> Low K so output needs to be tailered.


Very interesting!

How does one shift that 3300K to the 7000K range? Increase intensity of the Blues? Honestly I don't understand the concept of K in this 'single colour' LED context. Any links for me to learn more?

Thanks!!


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## oreo57

rebel said:


> Very interesting!
> 
> How does one shift that 3300K to the 7000K range? Increase intensity of the Blues? Honestly I don't understand the concept of K in this 'single colour' LED context. Any links for me to learn more?
> 
> Thanks!!


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_temperature

Simple version is K is just the temp of a "black" body radiator.
At each temp the color of the emitting light changes.
think "white hot"...

Now diodes,tubes,metal halides are NOT black bodies but the color is matched to a particular Kelvin temperature.
Since the spectrum is derived differently it is really called Correlated Color Temp..Correlated to a K value.
https://www.lrc.rpi.edu/programs/nlpip/lightinganswers/lightsources/whatisCCT.asp
ABOVE link really does explain it all. The closer one gets to the locus the closer the color is err "normal"
Maybe fuller is a better term.
It gets messy since a particular  K value is derived from the sum of its "colors" there is really an infinite amount of combinations possible to one K value.
Point is the  "K value "  or CCT of these punctated light sources can have an infinite amount of looks.
Some will be toned yellow, green, magenta ect.
REAL black body 6500k curve
https://www2.pvlighthouse.com.au/resources/courses/altermatt/The Solar Spectrum/Comparison with blackbody radiation - Plancks law.aspx

6500k tube..just to take a break from LEd's




And yes you can "cool" (funny since it's really "hotter) a white w/ blue .. warm it w/ red well somewhat.
High k white and red really go to pink not orange. Blame the "holes" in the spectrum
Leading back somewhat to the  7000k /red thing. You avoid, somewhat that yellow/orange intermediate color.
And why RGB is missing the yellow part. And why to increase your palette of tones people (stage/enviromental) add amber or Warm whites.


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## Wookii

oreo57 said:


> Partly.. it's just glare..Simulation, just adjusted brightness up
> Since all the "colors" are present what's left?
> *Beam white light to a leaf and it returns green, same w/ a green LED*
> Same w/ the difference between photographs on a cloudy day vs clear :



That's not how it works in practice in an aquarium though. The greens under the RGB LED's are significantly more vibrant and saturated than under the any white LED.


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## oreo57

Wookii said:


> That's not how it works in practice in an aquarium though. The greens under the RGB LED's are significantly more vibrant and saturated than under the any white LED.


This doesn't exactly address your statement  but it has some fun information.

LightStudy 



> Unlike color matching, the appearance of the light depends not simply on the physical
> property of the light but also upon the visual infrastructure of the observers as well. Colorimetry
> is based solely upon the spectral characteristics of the light source. But apparent color is not.
> *The color apperance of a light or of an illuminated object is not determined directly by the
> neural signals from the three cone types (long, middle, and short wavelength sensitive cones);
> rather, our perception of color represent processed information from the neurons that receive
> input from those cone types [22]. *Results presented here support the hypothesis that the white
> light perception can be enhanced by shifting the chromaticity below the blackbody line and
> observers prefer slightly reddish/bluish white light. This will be further explained in section 3.3.
> ...
> So the real observers
> perceive light differently with that obtained by the theoretical calculation. This phenomenon is
> referred as observer metamerism. Also, the lens pigment density, the cone density and the cone
> sensitivity are different for different people, so even same light might look differently for
> individual people [27].....



Sadly concentrates on RGB enhanced White LED's and a warm K.


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## oreo57

Bit more on "light theory".. Warning, it is a company blurb.
https://www.etcconnect.com/uploaded...ublic/White_Papers/Selador_white_paper_US.pdf


> Red, green and blue cannot, in fact, produce extremely saturated color at any hue except red, green and blue. Other colors mixed by RGB tend to appear washed-out or grayish, particularly in the amber-yellow, cyan-turquoise, and deep purple regions .....
> The ultimate multiple-color approach Returning to the color-wheel diagrams, one can see that by adding many more colors to the LED mix, the gamut of saturated colors can be greatly expanded within a luminaire. These diagrams  show  an  LED  array  with seven colors in the mix. The colors are  spaced  across  the  spectrum  to  fill  many  of  the  large  gaps  left  by  RGB.When the ratios of the various colors of LEDs  are  managed  very  carefully  in  a  fixture  like  this  –  so  that  their  relative  output  is  well-balanced –  color  mixing  becomes   intuitive,   and   the   range   of   beautiful,  deep  jewel  tones  and  rich,  satisfying  pastels  can  surpass  that  of  other luminaires.



Each has to decide on what approach they want..
There is no right or wrong here.

Just different..


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## Michoel

Would anyone know if two RGB Vivid 2 is enough for a 180cm tank? I mostly see people using three but I am wondering if one is enough for a 90cm tank wouldn't two be enough for a 180cm?

Thanks for your input.


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## Andyo

Would you recommend having 2 of these lights with a 120cm long tank or would you think 1 would be enough


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## Courtneybst

Andyo said:


> Would you recommend having 2 of these lights with a 120cm long tank or would you think 1 would be enough


You'll definitely want 2 of these for a 120cm.


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