# Dutch but NOT...



## Martin in Holland (16 Jul 2014)

After finally getting rid of the brown and brush algae I felt that it was time for some more plants in my planted tank so I am trying a more or less Dutch style. Most plants in the new scape come from the old one, just rearranged every thing. Did put new substrate in it as the old one was a year old and totally crumbled to dust.
Started with multiple layouts for the spider wood, ended up with the one I liked and which would give me line for some streets.



 
Just 1 minute after planting. I will probably move some plants around and need to add some more here and there, but it filled out nicely so far.


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## EnderUK (16 Jul 2014)

This is going to look good.


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## josepinto (17 Jul 2014)

Nice tank. What did you do end the brown algae?


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## Martin in Holland (17 Jul 2014)

josepinto said:


> What did you do end the brown algae?


Actually not much, tried to get a better current/flow and just focused on growing healthy plants, added some more Otos (although I don't think they did clean all my Diantoms) and added some more fast growing plants which where allowed the shade the tank a little.


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## Martin in Holland (17 Jul 2014)

One more day messing about and getting some plants...not much to get at the moment, the plants suffer from the heat (33 Celsius and some days even more) and in the shops they don't use chillers for their plant displays. Just got a fast grower to fill in an empty spot in the back, still need something for the midground.....

 


 
maybe just a rock with moss??...


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## Alexander Belchenko (17 Jul 2014)

Martin in China said:


> One more day messing about and getting some plants...not much to get at the moment, the plants suffer from the heat (33 Celsius and some days even more) and in the shops they don't use chillers for their plant displays.



Do you use fan cooler to drop temp down a bit?


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## Martin in Holland (18 Jul 2014)

Alexander Belchenko said:


> Do you use fan cooler to drop temp down a bit?


I have a chiller. I can see from my other tank that the only "plants" that thrive in this temperature are algae. This high temp. gasses off CO2 to fast too.
I need to find plants that grow well even with this high temp. for my 40 liter tank, cuase that one looks terrible now....


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## Martin in Holland (26 Jul 2014)

It seems to be growing for now, water is stable and the fish are back to enjoy their redecorated home.


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## Brian Murphy (26 Jul 2014)

Looks good and will fill out nicely if you keep on top of the trimming ...... nice and bushy


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## ADA (26 Jul 2014)

Looking good, is that Helferi or Eriocaulon in the foreground?


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## Martin in Holland (27 Jul 2014)

That would be Helferi...they don't look good but were very cheap so I give them a try


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## Martin in Holland (29 Jul 2014)

I just love it when the fish swim together.


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## Martin in Holland (31 Jul 2014)

Thanks for liking it and comments ......
I do hope I solved all my algae problems from the previous setup...so far it is looking good, but maybe to early to tell. Before I was fighting with brown algae and some red algae which at the end I got under control and even got rid of, which is why I dared to do this setup and I am amazed in how fast plants are already growing even though some of them are fast growers.


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## Martin in Holland (13 Aug 2014)

Week to week it's doing great so far, I just wasn't happy with some parts so I changed a bit here and there also some plants are being eaten, or atleast the young growth of it is nipped off, those I probably have to change also. I suspect the Cherry barbs of this nipping, they always nip my hand or arm whenever I'm in the tank.


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## Alexander Belchenko (13 Aug 2014)

Nice, I like your diagonal streets of plants in the foreground.

Sent via Tapatalk


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## Martin in Holland (14 Aug 2014)

seen from above


 
The Riccia is to bulky...later will have to do something with it.


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## Omegatron (14 Aug 2014)

Looks great martin! Can yo tell me what dimensions the tank has and how many cm is your light above the watersurface? How many bulbs does the unit have?


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## flygja (14 Aug 2014)

That looks really good. Shames my attempt which I've been trying for more than a year without success. I think my tank is a similar size 120 x 50 x 50 so can I ask how much CO2 are you injecting and how? I assumed its an inline thing, do you have 2 units for both filter outlets or just one?


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## Martin in Holland (14 Aug 2014)

Omegatron said:


> Can yo tell me what dimensions the tank has and how many cm is your light above the watersurface? How many bulbs does the unit have?


The unit is about 30 cm above the tank and has 4 T5 bulbs, but only 2 running for 3 hours and 15 than the other 2 will take over for the same hours. Tank is 120cm x 45cm high x 55cm.




flygja said:


> how much CO2 are you injecting and how? I assumed its an inline thing, do you have 2 units for both filter outlets or just one?


 I run two bottles CO2 inject with 2 inline atomisers and I use alot (KH=5 and pH drop from 7.2 to 6.1). I squeezed the outlets (as you would do with a garden hose) so to get a stronger current and aiming them towards the front glass.


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## Omegatron (14 Aug 2014)

Martin in China said:


> The unit is about 30 cm above the tank and has 4 T5 bulbs, but only 2 running for 3 hours and 15 than the other 2 will take over for the same hours. Tank is 120cm x 45cm high x 55cm.


 
Thanks for the info, i hang my lights higher yesterday so that made me curious about your distance from the surface, thanks!. Why are you using a fixture with 4 bulbs if you only use 2 bulbs simultaneously? Is there an advantage? Im just wondering .


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## Martin in Holland (15 Aug 2014)

I also use 4 bulbs as mid day burst for 30 minutes now and will go up to 1 or 2 hours...also 4 bulbs will give a better spreading.


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## flygja (15 Aug 2014)

Thanks Martin. It doesn't look like your tank is full of CO2 bubbles. I'm waiting on my pH pen to arrive from Hong Kong/Shenzhen. I was running 7-8 bps with 4x 54W and my tank was still full of BBA. Have switched back to 2 tubes now instead of 4.


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## Martin in Holland (15 Aug 2014)

flygja said:


> It doesn't look like your tank is full of CO2 bubbles.


I made this photo probably when the CO2 already turned off, which is one hour before the lights turn off.
I had huge problems with my previous setup and what I found worked really well was to pack my tank with plants, plants and more plants (fast growers, but also "normal" growers)


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## Martin in Holland (16 Aug 2014)

just made a small video, thought I share....

I found that a cellphone is not the most stable thing for this...sorry about that


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## Martin in Holland (10 Sep 2014)

My wife bought a camera that is able to go underwater (without killing it)...made some pictures with.


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## Greenfinger2 (16 Sep 2014)

Hi Martin , Stunning


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## josepinto (25 Sep 2014)

lovely!


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## Dantrasy (2 Oct 2014)

Great underwater pics.


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## Martin in Holland (9 Oct 2014)

Hmmm....having some problems with my plants, they were doing fine (great even) but now they start to decay, my Downoi is losing leaves Staug. repens is getting yellow and got more and more black little algae dots, even Ludwigia palustris is looking poorly.
I've lowered the lights from 2 x T5 54W 7 hours per day to 1.5 x T5 (covered half of the bulbs with alufoil) but this seems to even have a worse effect....
Still dosing EI (almost double amount) and with a KH of 6 my pH drops from 7.4 to 6.2
2 canister filters with have 1550 l/h output, but because I have a prefilter which probably block some flow, I also use a power head with spray bar of 1200 l/h. Tank is about 300 liter.

I have no idea what could be improved to get my plants back growing again....is there something as 'to much current'?


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## Crossocheilus (9 Oct 2014)

Too much current (for plants) is when physical damage occurs, I think. It may also prevent/limit uptake in some way but I haven't a clue...


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## ADA (9 Oct 2014)

Any of it over shadowed?


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## The_Iceman (9 Oct 2014)

Wooooow.... that's what I call "pearling"...

Martin... can you tell me the name of the plant in the last picture?


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## Martin in Holland (9 Oct 2014)

ADA said:


> Any of it over shadowed?


I don't think it's the problem of not enough light, although the Downoi was over shadowed a bit.


The_Iceman said:


> Wooooow.... that's what I call "pearling"...
> 
> Martin... can you tell me the name of the plant in the last picture?


No idea what the name is of that plant as they sell plants here with Chinese names like butterfly leaves or easy red...

Strangly enough is that this plant, how good it did before, is barely alive now, I would love to know what is going wrong.


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## The_Iceman (9 Oct 2014)

Oh that's a shame 

As your plants turn yellow... perhaps some issues with  Mg:Ca ratio?
Have no clue as you are already dosing the double amount of EI


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## Alexander Belchenko (9 Oct 2014)

@The_Iceman, that plant looks like myriophyllum tuberculatum.

@Martin, I have no proper idea what's wrong with your tank, although when something suddenly going wrong I'd check whether you have excessive organic in your tank (some coagulants can be used as test), maybe lacks of O2 (unlikely), or whether you have not good quality chemicals for fert dosing. How long ago do you clean your canister filters?


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## Mick.Dk (9 Oct 2014)

I second on Myriophyllum tuberculatum.


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## Martin in Holland (10 Oct 2014)

My guess would be Myriophyllum tuberculatum too...
I clean my filter only every 6 months or so, but I have a pre filter which I cleaned yesterday, I hope that will help a bit (usually I clean those every 2 weeks, but I was a bit behind on cleaning them)


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## ceg4048 (10 Oct 2014)

The_Iceman said:


> As your plants turn yellow... perhaps some issues with Mg:Ca ratio?


Aquatic plants do not really care about ratios. They only care whether there is sufficient levels, and, in any case it is impossible to control ratios.

Martin, you should ALWAYS suspect CO2....ALWAYS. Falling leaves and decay are a syndrome specific to poor CO2.

Cheers,


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## Martin in Holland (10 Oct 2014)

Clive, do you have any good ideas on how to get my CO2 better? I inject now with inline diffusers (one on each filter output line) which I just cleaned a few weeks ago, I already lowered the light output, my guess (yes, I am writing "guess", because I'm never sure, but when I poor in my CaCO3 milky water mix, it goes nicely to to front, down to the bottom and back at substrate level) is that the current is good.


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## ceg4048 (11 Oct 2014)

Hi Martin,
                  Reducing the light intensity lowers the CO2 demand so that the amount you are injecting becomes more useful. If you want to use the intensity of all the bulbs then you'll have to increase the injection rate. Trimming reduces the biomass and so makes more CO2 available. When your plants increase their mass then they need more of everything. The amount of CO2 that was necessary when the plants were small is a lot less than they need when they are big. This is entirely logical. Again, do a pH profile check to get a better idea of what's happening to the gas. Do I sound like a broken record?

Cheers,


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## Martin in Holland (11 Oct 2014)

So in short, my actions of lowering light intensity cutting some plants and adding even more CO2 were not bad (cutting plants was just because they were getting to big, I didn't think of their CO2 use)...
Anyway, I like this broken record and I can't hear it enough...LOL
I will do another day of pH checking tomorrow, let's see if it helped.


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## Martin in Holland (14 Oct 2014)

OK...here it is...my pH in short version (after I did some adjustments on the amount of CO2 and light)
KH=6

lights off  pH 7.0 
1.5 hr CO2 on before the lights come on pH dropped to 6.0 and stays during the whole lighting period unchanged.
1 hr CO2 off before the lights turn off, one hour after the lights turn off the pH is on the rise (6.1)

Lightning period is 6.5 hr 

I can't seem to get the pH to drop more.


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## Bhu (14 Oct 2014)

Wow that's stunning! Hey what's that carpet on the far left that just took off like magic! Has filled the whole corner and compared to the middle carpet wins hands down. Very impressive for one who introduced himself as a plant killer and algae grower when I first said hi  Love your pictures and your plants! You have a great variety where you live and have chosen a lovely display. Was that a SAE I saw swimming around in your video? And what are those big fish that look like marine chromis with red tails? Keep it up


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## Martin in Holland (14 Oct 2014)

Bhu said:


> Wow that's stunning! Hey what's that carpet on the far left that just took off like magic! Has filled the whole corner and compared to the middle carpet wins hands down. Very impressive for one who introduced himself as a plant killer and algae grower when I first said hi  Love your pictures and your plants! You have a great variety where you live and have chosen a lovely display. Was that a SAE I saw swimming around in your video? And what are those big fish that look like marine chromis with red tails? Keep it up



Thank Bhu. The carpet on the far left is Riccia tight to some stones, they always do well for me. It is indeed a SAE you saw swimming, there are 2 more hiding in the tank and the other fish are Colombian Red Fin (Hyphessobrycon columbianus), very nice fish, but sometimes like to nip on plants, I think mine stopped doing that for now.


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## Bhu (14 Oct 2014)

Thanks for that! I've never heard or seen Colombian Red fin in over 30 years lol! They look lovely...


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## ceg4048 (14 Oct 2014)

Martin in China said:


> I can't seem to get the pH to drop more.


Even if you turn the gas on earlier? Sorry mate, I'm too lazy to hunt for your tank specs but is this an external atomizer?

Cheers,


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## Martin in Holland (15 Oct 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> Even if you turn the gas on earlier? Sorry mate, I'm too lazy to hunt for your tank specs but is this an external atomizer?
> 
> Cheers,


I will try what it does if turn the gas on earlier...
I have 2 inline diffusers/atomizers, thinking of switching to reactors, I know they give me less output on the canister filters but with my powerhead connected to the spray bar I would still have more than enough current.


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## ceg4048 (15 Oct 2014)

Martin in China said:


> I will try what it does if turn the gas on earlier...


It will give more time to saturate the water with gas.

There must be a measurement problem because inline devices should work very well unless they are dirty or otherwise clogged.

Cheers,


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## Martin in Holland (16 Oct 2014)

I changed the 2 inline  diffusers/atomizers for 2 reactors also started to gas earlier, plants are pearling like crazy (which, I think, also means they get enough light) pH drop to 5.8, but my fish are having some problems now...mostly the Otos and Pleckos.
I toned down the gas a little bit. Gas is off now and air pump on for the night. It seems I found the point of enough CO2 for plants and hopefully just OK for fish.

As I live in China most product here are cheap as chips, but always have to look out for bad quality, even so, it makes it easier to change things with prices like this.


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## Alexander Belchenko (16 Oct 2014)

What kind of reactor do you use now?


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## Martin in Holland (17 Oct 2014)

Alexander Belchenko said:


> What kind of reactor do you use now?


ISTA mix max CO2 reactor are the once I use now.


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## Alexander Belchenko (17 Oct 2014)

I'm using the same M-sized model in pet shop tank now. It's quite effective in my observation, I was very close to kill livestock.

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## Martin in Holland (17 Oct 2014)

Alexander Belchenko said:


> I was very close to kill livestock.


Yep..me too. I'm using 2 large models. The plastic feels a bit cheap, but carefully installed by using hot water for the hoses helped and went without any problems or leaks. I'm not even using clamps.


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## Martin in Holland (31 Oct 2014)

I came home from work yesterday and saw many melting leaves all over the tank...tested the Ph, which was 6.0 (KH is 6), CO2 was still running and both reactors were filed with bubbles. 
The only change I've done 3 days ago is putting two more spray bars on the output of the filters (the water reaches the front glass) now I have spray bars over the whole length of the back. I see the current/flow all over the tank.
Enough CO2..? Enough flow..? Still problems  
.....now here is the funny thing...in my LFS they have a tank with exactly the same size, canister filters....but a whole lot less CO2 bubbles pumped in and looooooooots more light.....no algea, plant grow super good and no spray bars or extra pumps what so ever.... weird, right?

Anyway, what to do now to get my tank nice and green, red, yellow.....??????


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## Bhu (31 Oct 2014)

Wow that would imply a seriously high co2 level. Do you have fish and critters living in there? If so and they are alive and happy it might indicate that the co2 and KH readings are incorrect! Do you have any pictures?


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## Martin in Holland (31 Oct 2014)

Bhu said:


> Wow that would imply a seriously high co2 level. Do you have fish and critters living in there? If so and they are alive and happy it might indicate that the co2 and KH readings are incorrect! Do you have any pictures?


The CO2 is set so it just doesn't kill the fish (almost did before)...I tested the pH and KH several times with different methods (pH pen and testing sticks and KH with 2 different test sets API and Tetra)....
Bafeling to me...as it was starting to go so well just a few days ago (just before I gave it more current....I'm going to try to lower that current back again, lets see what will happen)


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## Martin in Holland (4 Jan 2015)

The tank is going really nice now, lowered the lights quit a bit to only 1.5 T5 for 7 hours per day, this also means that I don't have to give so much CO2 anymore and I am now using PPS pro instead of EI which also lowers the CO2 demand. Plants are growing, nice green (not so much red anymore) starting to look healthier (old leaves ofcourse not, but all new growth is)...all in all, I'm a happy camper.
I need to take new pictures and will post them later....


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## Dantrasy (4 Jan 2015)

Glad thing are going well. 

How are you running 1.5 T5s? Do you have one half covered?


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## Martin in Holland (4 Jan 2015)

The T5's are covered with tin foil, I will try to post a picture of this later.


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## Martin in Holland (4 Jan 2015)

Pictures are not very clear, my android isn't great in taking pictures (could be my skills) . Left front corner I just cut the Riccia and try if HC would grow there.
It's maybe a bit to early to draw conclusions, but the lower light, PPS pro and new (extra) pump with spray bar seem to do the trick.


 
Some pics of the lights covered with tin foil. My ficture only allows me to run 2 or 4 T5's at one time (silly Chinese design, but that's what you get when you want it cheap...)


 

Hope I can help someone with this info.


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## Martin in Holland (9 Feb 2015)

Almost all plants are doing well now I have less light.


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## Greenfinger2 (9 Feb 2015)

Hi Martin, Good to here you solved the problem 

Looking fab again now  In the last photo is that a Buce about to flower


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## parotet (9 Feb 2015)

Hi Martin, glad to read all the pats are doing well. Let it grow and show us more pictures. Looks promising!

Jordi


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## ourmanflint (9 Feb 2015)

Stunning tank martin! This is the kind of layout I always have in mind but never seem to achieve


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## Martin in Holland (10 Feb 2015)

Greenfinger2 said:


> Hi Martin, Good to here you solved the problem
> 
> Looking fab again now  In the last photo is that a Buce about to flower


I'm very happy now with my tank. I guess the little changes I've made paid off (longer spraybar attached to a stronger powerhead, PPS pro nutrients and most of all a whole lot less light), almost no algae, plants are growing great with lush green even the fish and shrimp seem to do better.
The buce on that last picture is just unwrapping a new leave...no flower as of yet.


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## Martin in Holland (11 Feb 2015)

For everyone that likes pearls.....


 


 


 


 
Even under low light my plants can't help but just pearl.


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## flygja (11 Feb 2015)

That's looking great Martin. How do you find the Ista Max Mix reactors? I have the large and medium models. The large model reduces my filters flow by quite a bit..about quarter to half reduction, even with the wheels removed.


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## Martin in Holland (11 Feb 2015)

flygja said:


> How do you find the Ista Max Mix reactors?


They reduce flow indeed a lot, that's why I have an extra power head attached to a  (DIY) spray bar, but no more fuzzy seven-up look in my tank which I even got with the inline atomizers.


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## Rob Dahl (12 Feb 2015)

Just beautiful work Martin. Was wondering how you solved your algae problems.


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## mlongpre (12 Feb 2015)

How much par do you think you are putting down at the substrate with your modified light setup?


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## Martin in Holland (13 Feb 2015)

Rob Dahl said:


> Just beautiful work Martin. Was wondering how you solved your algae problems.


I guess it came down on using less light, T5's are so powerful tat just 1.5 tube for 7 hours per day is enough for plants. I also stopped dosing excel and went from EI to PPS pro, as with EI my TDS went from 250 to almost 500 and now it is stable at 240 the whole week. I'm not saying that EI caused algae, but I think with more nutrients in the water, plants are asking for more CO2 than I could ever provide.


mlongpre said:


> How much par do you think you are putting down at the substrate with your modified light setup?


Honustly I wouldn't know how much PAR, but not much as I also have flouters. My guess is that it is just above what low tech tanks use.


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## Rob Dahl (13 Feb 2015)

Thank you Martin


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## Martin in Holland (4 Mar 2015)

Moved around some plants, now some need to grow in a bit more, mostly at the right back corner.


 
There is a big chance though that I will change the whole scape this summer


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## Rob Dahl (4 Mar 2015)

Lovely Martin. I will wait to see what you come up with.


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## alto (4 Mar 2015)

Great recovery!
Need more of those closeups though  - that Buce photo is one of the nicest I've seen.


Can't help but wonder though if summer is the best time for a restart - isn't that also when it's hottest?


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## Jay1 (4 Mar 2015)

I never thought I would say *"I'm jealous of someone else's bubbles" *
Great pictures its hard not to peek into others posts makes me want more plants LOL!


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## Martin in Holland (5 Mar 2015)

alto said:


> Can't help but wonder though if summer is the best time for a restart - isn't that also when it's hottest?


Here it is hot for 9 months out of a year also I'm not worried much as I have a chiller and it shouldn't take much longer than one day.


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## BBogdan (6 Mar 2015)

Good looking plants and nice pics as well.


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## Martin in Holland (6 Mar 2015)

Next setup will become a real (nature) scape again.


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## Martin in Holland (22 May 2015)

Have been busy on the salt water tank and while resting on the floor I looked up at this.....


 


 
Sometimes looking at your tank from a different angle gives it a whole new feeling....I am in love with this few, you can find me more often on the floor now.


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## Rob Dahl (23 May 2015)

Very cool Martin. I'll have to try it with my tanks.


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## Martin in Holland (17 Jun 2015)

My red Lily died off and I found some plants not looking their best and a bit of hair algae . I couldn't get down to the source of this, until yesterday I found that my power head lost a cap that plugged a second output, this considerably influenced the output of the spray bar which wasn't doing it's job properly anymore.
Plugged the hole back up again, my guess is that it will solve my issues fast.


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## Martin in Holland (22 Jun 2015)

Last time I the Anubias gave me pretty flowers (which it is still doing) and now it's the Buce's turn to do the same ....even if it's only the one.


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## Martin in Holland (11 Sep 2015)

This layout is no longer....it is now turned into a new layout called "Two Sisters", named after two islands in Singapore.
I found that I like my layouts to look as if you could really find them in a flooded lake or stream.

A link to the new layout http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/two-sisters.38013/


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