# filter advice from shop...is it correct????



## Mrmikey (2 Jun 2011)

I have a 60l tank, and with everything ive read it tells me i need 20x turnover. 

I was looking at the eheim 2074- 1500lph but the guy on the phone said it would be too much and that it may cause problems:

1/ back pressure - having told me its really powerful he said i may end up turning it down but then it would cause back pressure and have an impact on the impeller. Or he suggested splitting the outflow into two? 

2/ he also said that because its a 60l tank and it is filtering alot of water it would take ages to make the micro bacteria work/ build up in the media. 

does all this sound right? and should I get a smaller one and add a power head? 

or do I just get it, have the power there if i need it and just turn it down? 

thanks mike


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## foxfish (2 Jun 2011)

10 x turnover is the formula you need.


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## Morgan Freeman (2 Jun 2011)

Where did you get 20 x turnover from?


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## mdhardy01 (2 Jun 2011)

Not 20x only 10x 
So for your 60l you would be looking at a filter with a 600lhr flow rate
Lots to choose from 
As for what the guy in the lfs said well turning down the flow via a tap can cause back pressure but you wouldn't need to turn it down too much on a 600lhr and there's lots that can be done to reduce velocity 
If your using a spray bar make the holes bigger or extend the spray bar
If using lilypipes get ones withe a large outflow
As for media colonisation this will happen at whatever speed or tank volume it depends on what method you use, most members here fishless cycle if you already have a tank use some of the mulm( dirt) from the filter 
Some lfs will give you some mulm to get the filter going quicker
You can buy various filter start liquids which contain bacteria to get the filter mature quicker( not sure on their effectiveness though)
Some of the substrates for planted tanks like ADA Amazonia give off ammonia for a couple of weeks and this gets the filter going too
Hope this helps 
Matt


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## George Farmer (2 Jun 2011)

Hi Mike

That filter is an excellent choice. 

Excess flow is not an issue, especially if you use a spraybar or lily pipe. If you are using any inline gear i.e. external heater or inline CO2 diffuser, then this will also reduce flow.

I have a Fluval G6 on a 60 litre (2460lph) and it's great.

If you're running a healthy planted tank then the plants will perform much of the bio-filtration, so the bacteria build-up rate is academic.

The guy on the phone has well-intended advice but is not aware of modern planted tank methodology.

Cheers,
George


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## bigmatt (2 Jun 2011)

I'd still go with the stated model - 1500lph SOUNDS like a lot, but in reality it'll be delivering much below this (as do all filters) and as other members have stated by the time you add on spraybars, co2 diffusers, external heaters etc you'll almost be wishing you;d bought something MORE powerful!  Add in a heavily planted tank that diffuses the flow a lot and you'll soon see that 10x or 20x is not as much as it intially sounds.  Like most people i run VASTLY overrated filters on all my tanks (inc a 600lph Eheim on a 15 l nano!) and i would always like more power!
Hope this helps mate,
Matt


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## foxfish (2 Jun 2011)

OK then lets move on up to 20 x


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## George Farmer (2 Jun 2011)

Remember the 10x 'rule' is only a guideline.

When I started writing for PFK about "hi-tech" methods in 2006 this was one of the "rules" I talked about.

I actually got the idea from Justin Law's older stuff circa 2005/6.  His amazing contest-winning 35 litre had an Eheim external.  Since then I noticed the big players in aquascaping were all using big externals on relatively small tanks.

Now with folk using internal powerheads etc. the circulation issue seems to have got almost obsessive, hence my thread here - viewtopic.php?f=21&t=11056 

There's no doubt good circulation is important, and the higher energy you go (more light, more CO2, more nutrients), the more important it becomes.


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## Mrmikey (2 Jun 2011)

george thanks for clearing up some of my queries. I knew I had read 20x is what you should be aiming for especially in a heavily planted tank... so im not turning mad thats a relief. 

So im going to go for a high turnover, if its to much ill turn it down, better than not having enough turnover then having to get another one! mistake made on nano! lesson learned thats why im asking so may questions.

thanks again george


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## George Farmer (2 Jun 2011)

You're welcome, Mike.  

Enjoy your nice new Eheim!


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## Mrmikey (2 Jun 2011)

bigmatt said:
			
		

> I'd still go with the stated model - 1500lph SOUNDS like a lot, but in reality it'll be delivering much below this (as do all filters) and as other members have stated by the time you add on spraybars, co2 diffusers, external heaters etc you'll almost be wishing you;d bought something MORE powerful!  Add in a heavily planted tank that diffuses the flow a lot and you'll soon see that 10x or 20x is not as much as it intially sounds.  Like most people i run VASTLY overrated filters on all my tanks (inc a 600lph Eheim on a 15 l nano!) and i would always like more power!
> Hope this helps mate,
> Matt



nice one matt im going to take the plunge and get the 2074, flow is strong, comes with media , next day delivery.

HOWEvER  if you say MORE POWER how about the 2178- built in heater and 1800lph flow!! or am i just being bonkers as its £420.gulp!.


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## George Farmer (2 Jun 2011)

Mrmikey said:
			
		

> HOWEvER  if you say MORE POWER how about the 2178- built in heater and 1800lph flow!! or am i just being bonkers as its £420.gulp!.


That is overkill.

The Fluval G6 is a superior filter IMO, and £70 less.  No built-in heater though.


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## Mrmikey (2 Jun 2011)

George Farmer said:
			
		

> Mrmikey said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well it was just a thought lol £420 with no media so the G6 is way cheaper... I never thought buying a filter would trouble me this much! 

ha, so George you use a Fluval G6 on your 60l, I just looked at one for the first time and thought it was a fax/printer and scanner lol. is it just a toss up between the G6 and 2074 ? or can you say why the G6 is better? 

cheers


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## George Farmer (2 Jun 2011)

Check this out - viewtopic.php?f=20&t=12757


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## Mrmikey (2 Jun 2011)

George Farmer said:
			
		

> Check this out - viewtopic.php?f=20&t=12757



now i really dont know what to do 

This new filter is going NEXT to a cabinet not in it. A new problem which I over looked was the hight of these things. I dont think i would be able to put the external hydor 300w heater on there because its to big. What i mean is the eheim for example is 38cm high, with inline co2 and the heater it would go up past my cabinet. So now im thinking built in heater, maybe a power head.... back to where i started unless anyone has any ideas.


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## George Farmer (3 Jun 2011)

If the filter is going outside the cabinet I don't see the problem with kit going up past the cabinet?  I have done the exactly the same.


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## chrisfraser05 (4 Jun 2011)

I'm running 22x flow and tbh thinking I could go higher lol


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## Mrmikey (4 Jun 2011)

Nice one george its not that bad but I must admit I'm probably being a bit anal about this. only because it's in my room. I want to keep it as un cluttered as possible in the long term. 
For my nano I learned the hard way.... £££ lol buying things based on old tank theory. So now I'm more up to speed I don't wanna rush into impulse buys. 
I have my heart set on a eheim thermo filter. 2178 too powerful 1850lph and the 2173 too weak 1050lph. I think there will be one soon that fills the gap so I'm going to wait till the end of summer. Don't worry credit notes have gone to good use
In the mean time I'm going to get a second hand one that will put me on.  I will use a heater in the tank even though it looks naff. 
A member on here may have a tetratec e1200 for sale. Im only growing moss so it may be a good solution for the time being.


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## Mrmikey (7 Jun 2011)

Well I just bought an ehiem 2171 - 950lph. The idea behind this is that I will be able to move it onto my nano 30l in the future, and get a bigger thermo filter when one comes out.

George thanks for all the advice, i will still get the flow using a pump but thats only short term.

Also Im sure not having the big ugly hydor hanging next to the tank will look far better and neater.


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## George Farmer (7 Jun 2011)

950lph is likely fine.  Even if you only get 1/3 of that then that's 5x turnover.  With lower lighting and decent maintenance, lower levels of circulation are acceptable in my experience.  

I realise the 10x 'rule' is commonplace - it's a nice round figure for planted tank beginners that will likely have more lighting and spend less time maintaining, so it's a good starting point.


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## Mrmikey (7 Jun 2011)

George Farmer said:
			
		

> 950lph is likely fine.  Even if you only get 1/3 of that then that's 5x turnover.  With lower lighting and decent maintenance, lower levels of circulation are acceptable in my experience.
> 
> I realise the 10x 'rule' is commonplace - it's a nice round figure for planted tank beginners that will likely have more lighting and spend less time maintaining, so it's a good starting point.



Thats what I thought ill only be using 24w max so should do until i decide to go HC mad and as its going to be mostly moss - should be adequate.  
It was a good deal to... i thought..all media included £199, free delivery, next day. That money saved is going to be for some glassware. so really no money saved!


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## Mrmikey (8 Jun 2011)

Well my new filter has arrived, unwrapped and ready to go.

couple of questions:

1/ all i have is the ADA in there and manzi wood. Should I fill it and start cycling even though there are no plants, probably just the moss tied to some wire mesh. I was going to this for a month until westy gets back and sends me some xmas moss. then i was going to take the wood out and then tie the moss on and scape it properly. 

2/ would this process and release of ammonia cause algae outbreak? as plants arent there to absorb the excess and the filter not being mature. I was planning on doing this with no light or just an 11 arcpod. 

3/ i actually think it will take ages and ages to get a carpet of moss. I have a bit of glosso left over from my nano, would this grow alright under and 11w, more to the point carpet. I have tried it with an 18w but it just grew upward even tough i trimmed it hard about 4 times. I this tank though its 5cm shorter so would that make the difference? 

thanks


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