# Filtering a 400ltr



## dok (4 Sep 2012)

Hi all,

I’m looking for some guidance on filtration requirements for a 400 ltr (100 gal) planted tank I’m planning. The tank is to be moderately planted with co2 injection and regularly dosed with nutrients.   

I read 10x turnover per hour is advisable to ensure proper distribution of co2/nutrients, is this correct? If so, then I’m looking for a turnover rate of around 4000 l/h.

To minimise the equipment in the tank I’m planning on using external canister filters only (ie no powerheads) with in line heater & co2 . So……which filter is it to be?!!?

I’m a big fan of eheim externals filters so have only been looking at them for suitable options – the best fit I can find so far is using 2 x Eheim Pro 3e 2078 – this gives me a turnover of 3700 l/h (2 x 1850 l/h). I’m am aware that when filer media is added I wont be getting anywhere near that, so do I need to be looking at a 3rd external? 

Also, although I’ve still to decide on livestock I am thinking of going down the large shoal of tetras and small group of larger, more sedate fish (angels, discus or gouramis etc) stocking route. Is there a danger the high turnover rate could stress the larger fish out – as I understand it they are still/slow moving water fish. 

Thanks in advance.


----------



## hinch (4 Sep 2012)

you'll be looking at 3 externals or 2x fx5's but you can't really put inline heaters and co2 on the fx5's due to pipe diameter.

on a tank that size you're probably better going sumped


----------



## dok (4 Sep 2012)

Thanks for the quick reply hinch

Sump eh…eeek!! The very word scares the bjesus out of me!
Seriously, I like the idea of a sump but am quite daunted by the prospect of building one. I suppose it’ll be a better option, in terms of cost and maintenance time, than 3 externals. 
I do have a few reservations:– 

Are they not a bit on the noisy side? The tank is to be located in the living room – I want to be able to watch the footy without feeling like I’m sat next to a waterfall

Isn’t there an increase in the amount of co2 which is driven off?

Isn’t there an increased chance in me flooding the aforementioned living room?

Hmmmm, there’s a lot to think about and research - I’ll start to look around and see what info I can find online.


On the plus side, I’ve still to order my tank & cabinet etc so I can ensure there’s provision made for a sump (drilling etc).


----------



## hinch (4 Sep 2012)

dok said:
			
		

> Are they not a bit on the noisy side? The tank is to be located in the living room – I want to be able to watch the footy without feeling like I’m sat next to a waterfall


if done right they're silent its only really the overflows which make any noise



			
				dok said:
			
		

> Isn’t there an increase in the amount of co2 which is driven off?


yes but if you add co2 into the return pipe(s) then it'll at least be hitting the tank first before going back to the vented sump



			
				dok said:
			
		

> Isn’t there an increased chance in me flooding the aforementioned living room?


if done right there's probably less chance  than an external busting a seal the trick is to have a decent siphon break on the overflow and enough excess capacity in the sump its self to allow for the pipework to drain into it without flooding.



			
				dok said:
			
		

> On the plus side, I’ve still to order my tank & cabinet etc so I can ensure there’s provision made for a sump (drilling etc).


if you're having them custom built get them to build a sump too at same time? that way it'll be designed specifically for your tank and nice and safe etc.
Consider using external wiers or overflows rather than drilling the tanks I've personally never been a fan of drilling makes me feel unsafe.


----------



## ceg4048 (4 Sep 2012)

Hello,
       A 400L tank requires 4000LPH filter rating to satisfy the 10X rule. The 10X rule already takes into account the fact that filters only produce 1/2 their rating. Therefore, if you already have 3700LPH then you have more or less satisfied the 10X rule. You do not need to add another filter and you do not need to add more complication to an already complicated setup. You can also remove some of the filter material to increase filter throughput. More importantly now is the manner in which you distribute the flow.

Cheers,


----------



## dok (4 Sep 2012)

Thanks for the reply ceg

That's music to my ears! 2 eheims it is then!

Planning on doing a journal for this particular project, so watch this space! 

Cheers

Dok


----------



## james3200 (4 Sep 2012)

I run a 2260 with a 1262 pump upgrade (3400lph) and a 2180 on my 700LTish tank. If I had the choice again I would have gone for another 2260 over the fancy new eheims which I have had numerous issues with. Going by the 10x rule a 2260+1262 pump is nearly there, could use a smaller classic filter to get above the 4000lph if you must!


----------



## ceg4048 (4 Sep 2012)

The easiest solution for this tank, assuming the OP has the budget (and space) for it, is to use two 2180's and one of them should be a Thermofilter. The 2180 Thermofilter comes with an integrated 500W heater that sits at the bottom of the canister. This eliminates the need to add an external heater which can choke the flow if the inlet diameter is less than the 16mm ID of the standard tubing. To save money and to improve flow only one media set needs to be purchase plus a foam set. The media is split evenly between the two filters and so throughput is maximized. This improve flow throughput. To save money even further, there is really no need to buy Eheim media unless it can be had at a competitive price. Fluval media is cheaper and works exactly the same.

Again, the 10X rule is a rule of thumb and is a nice target. You don't have to get it exactly. You just need to get in the neighborhood, and if the distribution is well executed this should work fine. If the 2080 is two big to fit the cabinet then the same strategy can be used with the smaller 2078. One or both can be the thermofilter version.

Cheers,


----------



## dok (4 Sep 2012)

James/ceg, thanks for your comments.

James, interested to hear about your issues with the fancy new eheims? I’ve had a few and have nothing but positive things to say. 
Ceg,I don’t really have a budget as such – my missus ok’d my “dream tank” if I managed to get myself sorted with a job after taking voluntary redundancy from my old (there's motivation for you!!!). Nope, for once in my life I can spend a serious amount on the hobby I love!!
Like the solution you’re proposing with the thermo eheims – I’m getting everything custom made so will ensure I’ve space in the cabinet for a pair of 2180. 
In terms of co2 – I’m going for delivery via an inline diffuser. Question, is one diffuser enough or should I be getting 2 sets of equipment (ie cylinders, regulators etc) and rigging one up to each filter? 

Thanks in advance


----------



## Antipofish (4 Sep 2012)

Dok
Theres nothing wrong with "fancy new eheims" mate.  Whitey and me both have the 2078 and its a cracking filter.  And alastair has had them in the past I believe.  You will get rogue filters in ANY range and there will always be someone who has had a problem with whatever you choose.  Thing to remember is that Eheim generally is accepted as top quality and I fully support that notion.  IT comes with a guarantee right ? So if you have a problem, no drama, it can be sorted !  I now also have a 2173 so can also recommend the thermo versions.    Bear in mind with the 2078, the factory setting of pump output FULLY MEDIA'd is 700LPH and you can ramp that up to about 1100LPH.  Thats actual flow as opposed to the 1850lph which is with zero head and nothing inside the baskets.  

As Clive said, the 10X rule takes this into account.  If you REALLY find you dont have enough flow with two 2078's (I find one is fine for 200L so see no reason why two should not be sufficient for 400L) then you could consider adding an external pump loop using something like an Eheim 3000 compact or a New Jet 3000 which is slightly cheaper.

The other thing that Clive mentioned is of paramount importance.  It is DISTRIBUTION just as much as flow, which is important.  You could have 20 times flow but still not DISTRIBUTE the CO2 and ferts successfully, or you could have 5 x flow and have great distribution.

A long spraybar along the back, facing forward so that the flow goes forwards, hits the front glass and is deflected down and then backwards along the substrate level, is generally considered the best method 

Sumping, IMO, is a somewhat drastic and unnecessary option, but there are some journals on here which highlight larger tanks that are very successful using that method.


----------



## james3200 (4 Sep 2012)

> James, interested to hear about your issues with the fancy new eheims? I’ve had a few and have nothing but positive things to say.



After the leaking issues on hose connectors on my 2180 and 2128 I just like the simplicity of a big canister and powerful pump on top, very little to go wrong and on big tanks that's a bonus.


----------



## ceg4048 (5 Sep 2012)

dok said:
			
		

> ...Ceg,I don’t really have a budget as such....Nope, for once in my life I can spend a serious amount on the hobby I love!!


Hmm..given the authority to spend as much as one likes....that must be nice.   



			
				dok said:
			
		

> ..In terms of co2 – I’m going for delivery via an inline diffuser. Question, is one diffuser enough or should I be getting 2 sets of equipment (ie cylinders, regulators etc) and rigging one up to each filter?


I've found that on large tanks, each filter should get it's own inline device. This gives a much better gas distribution throughout the tank. Since you appear to be living the dream scenario then it would not be considered over the top to have two separate cylinder/regulator/diffuser installations. A 10kg cylinder feeding each of the two filters would do nicely.

"No budget as such"......imagine that.    


Cheers,


----------



## dok (5 Sep 2012)

Ha, correct I am living the dream alright! Like I say, it’s my reward to myself for 12 years hard work in the IT industry – that’s equivalent to 24 years in other industries (48 in HR…..no one on here works in HR right?!!!?) Besides, if I don’t get my dream tank soon there will be no cash left - it’s gradually being fritted away on the wife, kids, house etc!! 

Thanks for the feedback on configuring my co2 – I kinda suspected this would be the case. Will make sure I’ve got 2 sets of everything. Will this go some way to addressing the distribution issue you and Antipofish highlight? Ie if I’ve got 2 sources of co2 in the tank (both delivered via a spraybar) it should be distributed better?

Not sure about the 10kg bottle though – don’t think they fit in the cabinet and are not in keeping with the living room décor - they’ll not be easy to disguise either (stick a lampshade on it, could it pass as a lamp?!!?) I think 2 x 2kg bottles are more like it.

Will need to start looking at tank/cabinet manufacturers soon, and get some quotes. I’m aware Aquariums Ltd have a good reputation but don’t know if they’ll deliver up here (I’m based in Glasgow). Anyone know of any Scottish based manufacturers? Do you know what lead time they work to?
Braceless Optiwhite tanks seem en vogue at present but are they really worth the cash? I know I’m building my dream tank but don’t want to spend big on something that’s got little or no benefits.


----------



## Antipofish (5 Sep 2012)

You neednt spend stupid money on a braceless optiwhite, if you are having it custom built, all you are essentually paying for is thicker glass that looks better, so in those terms, YES its definitely worth it.  I just got one and its noticeably better.

Yes two sources of CO2 (as far as I am concerned, which need to be at a similar rate) will help your distribution.  I personally still think that two 2078's (or get the thermo version if you can) will be ideal.


----------

