# excessive flow and CO2 uptake



## Victor (21 Jul 2015)

aHi! I've read here help! with glossotigma  that excessive flow can cause CO2 uptake problem. So, I think my glossostigmas are suffering from the same issue! Maybe I have too much flow and they aren't catching enough CO2 and presenting CO2 deficiency problems like glassy leaves. But I haven't sure. Another cause could be iron deficience? Check this video that shows my flow over my glossos:



Here is a picture that shows more details. Repare the glassy leaves. Only the new leaves are affected. I'm dosing 2x macronutrients standard EI + micros (in alternated days). I was doing a micronutrient solution (1 L) with my very soft tap water. But I'll begin to dose the dry powder directly in the tank from next week. Also some of the glossos are leggy. I've recently cut the top of the plant and replanted it.






And here's a scheme of my whole tank:





I have medium/high light (6 x 30 w T8 tubes with good reflectors) and spray bars over all tank length. Flow is also very good (I think). I have 3 CO2 reactors that are running with 2-3 bps each one. My drop checker is always green all day at substrate level and during photoperiod it becomes yellow. My photoperiod is 8 hours a day and I begin the 2 first hours with only 2 light tubes. So what's the problem with my glossos? Thank you.


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## GTL_UK (21 Jul 2015)

first thing I would change these reactors to either inline or proper external reactor or at least 2 intank diffusers 

Thanks


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## Jose (21 Jul 2015)

If anything too much flow is only helping you here. 
Read this
http://www.barrreport.com/forum/barr-report/co2-enrichment/1128-co2-issues-read-this


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## Victor (21 Jul 2015)

GTL_UK said:


> first thing I would change these reactors to either inline or proper external reactor or at least 2 intank diffusers
> 
> Thanks


I have tried this before but with the same bad results so I came back to reactors. I have very intense pearling using my reactors. I think they're better than inline devices.


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## Jose (21 Jul 2015)

Victor said:


> I have tried this before but with the same bad results so I came back to reactors. I have very intense pearling using my reactors. I think they're better than inline devices.


You can keep those but your glosso is showing co2 issues. Either try lowering light, or injecting more co2 with the risk of gassing your fish, although I dont see any.


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## Victor (21 Jul 2015)

You're got it, I don't have fishes or shrimps . Ok, I'll inject more CO2 and see what happens. I can't lowering my lighting because my heaminthus micranthemoides begins to produce glassy leaves (I've solved this problem increasing lighting). My flow is good? It's not excessively strong, right?


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## GTL_UK (21 Jul 2015)

Victor said:


> I have tried this before but with the same bad results so I came back to reactors. I have very intense pearling using my reactors. I think they're better than inline devices.


Don't think that pearling means that reactors are OK,  it's light intensity. 
Like Jose said either lower light intensity or add more co2 

Thanks


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## ian_m (21 Jul 2015)

Poor CO2.

My Glosso did the same, new shoots were glass like and older lower down the stem shoots got a fine coating of BBA. Also drop checker was more blue than green when placed in the glosso. I tied my drop checker to a pebble so it could be placed in the middle of the glosso patch, confirming poor CO2. Addition of  a power head forcing more circulation produced green/yellow drop checker and new growth was all thick and green.

Once sorted started to grow rather maniacally...


 

Even growing on my tank bracing bar....


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## Victor (25 Jul 2015)

Guys, I've increased my CO2 a lot. Watch this video in full HD to see the bubble rate in each reactor:


Do you think  it is good enough? My plants is still glassy. So I need to wait some weeks to see any improvements? At the side of each CO2 reactor there is a pump that sucks the water and release it by spray bars so I think the water that outs from spraybars is rich in CO2 . I'm right?


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## Jose (25 Jul 2015)

Yes there is some co2 coming out but the questions is not that one. All plants have different co2 needs (very important). Also there is only so much co2 that a bubble rising up can dissolve into the water. There are a few options for you.

1) start checking your ph drop with a ph metre. I really dont like dropcheckers, they are pretty useless IMO.
2) I think this is your way to go. You should change your diffusion method. Just by feeding the co2 into your pumps you will probably get better co2. Have you read the link I posted before? Co2 mist is probably the best option for plants. Reactors also work but the ones you have are known for being pretty bad.

You seem to be injecting a lot of co2 into those reactors..I cant figure out where the excess co2 is comi g out from in the video. Does a big bubble rise from the reactors when co2 builds up?

You can get a couple of Rhinox diffusers and it will work better than that.I would probably get an inline up atomizer they are really good.


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## Victor (25 Jul 2015)

Hi, jose! Thank you for your reply. Yes, I've read the linked article. I found it interesting but I haven't sure if CO2 bubbles and microbubbles will do any difference now because I already tried this method last year without success. The bubbles enter in my reactor with a large size and outs there with small size so they're diffusing pretty well. There is a weak water jet at reactor top coming from spray bar to help diffuse the remaining bubbles. Take a look here:



I've focused only the middle reactor, but there are more 2 with the same bubble rate and same size. As you can see, I'm injecting a huge amount of CO2 in the water. I don't know but I think it's about 10 bps or more. So I have did a test with the ph. My ph controller only measures the water ph, so the CO2 comes on 2 hours before lights on and turns off 2 hours before lights off. At the beginning of photoperiod my ph was 5,18. So I took a small sample of water from my tank and shaked it a lot and measured the ph. The result was 6,8. It's good, not? And when the CO2 turns off my tank ph reaches the mark of 4,75. My 6 dkh drop checker is green during all day and becomes yellow during photoperiod at substrate level. It seems is impossible the plants is showing CO2 lack symptoms. I'm getting mad with this. I don't understand nothing else.


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## Jose (26 Jul 2015)

I would recommend just feeding your co2 into the powerheads impellers for a few days, I bet youll see a difference. You can always go back to your reactors. It would be a nice test. You shoukd keep bps the same as to not misdiagnose things. Youll see results in very few days as youve got high light.


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## Victor (26 Jul 2015)

Alright, I'll try it. I'll inform you about the results as soon as possible. Thank you, mate.


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## Victor (28 Jul 2015)

I have installed my inline system. I'm injecting CO2 directly in spray bars using 3 CO2  hoses in 3 different spots. Each CO2 hose has a porous stone to produce small CO2 bubbles. Take a look at this scheme and you'll understand better:




The sprays bars cover all tank length now, so I have tiny CO2 bubbles moving through all tank. You can see here:



My main concern is the ph drop. With my reactors the ph reached the mark of 4,75 when CO2 turned off. Now, with my inline device, the ph reaches only 4,93 and I'm using the same bps. I have noted that almost half of the bubbles that out by spray bars holes escapes to atmosphere. This is normal? Should I increase the CO2 even more or just wait?


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## Chris Jackson (28 Jul 2015)

Yes well I found I needed more bps through an atomiser than a reactor to get the same ph drop so your result doesnt surprise me but many argue that little bubbles are easier for the plants but that was not my experience either. 

The thing that jumps out at me about your set up is how low your Ph is, maybe this could be an issue? 4.93 is very acidic. I aim for 7.5 down to 6.5 or there abouts


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## Jose (28 Jul 2015)

pH drop is a good way to measure* dissolved co2 *but the co2 in the form of bubbles is also very good for plants and its not registered in the pH. I think you should be looking at your pearling. Has it increased. The big bubbles that rise are o2 and not build up of co2 in the plants believe me. How is your glosso looking?
You dont necessarily need more co2 because you dont need to drop the pH as much and this is the idea behind your test. Anyways just keep an eye on your plants to see if they are growing better at all?


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## Ryan Thang To (28 Jul 2015)

hello victor

im glad you did you read my thread about the glosso. wow that was along time ago. back then i had loads of proplem i just went straight in to high tech. lol

anyways there a few thing you have to do first beacuse the tank is so big.

you need to stop using the drop checker they are only there to tell you that there is co2 in the water. ph metre is the is the key and you want to aim for a 1 point ph drop. this is what work for me and always work for my other tanks but my water is hard like 7.6

like jose said get a ph metre and play around with co2. try different ways like co2 stright in to the filter or diffuser under the power head etc. co2 in my filter is what i using atm

can you give me you tank size? also your tap water ph and ph in your tank just before co2 comes on? you said your ph is low maybe beacuse you injecting too much and it doesnt get all use up in the morning. i had low to medium surface movement but after lights out i had my eheim skimmer comes on to get rid of co2 ph back to 7.6 before lights on. i use to have it on all day but with that on my ph won't drop anymore that 7 so i try it with out it and my ph drop to 6.7 which i get a 1 point ph drop.
if your tank was mine i would also change your light to x2 t5.

and about the glasses leaf that normally with glosso. its a new leaf and then turn darker once it get bigger.

remember when you change something be patient. test it for a few week before you make another or else you will run in to trouble. changes don't happen in a few days lol

when you get this sorted i bet you don't want glosso nomore beacuse you only have it in a small area and that area will take over your tank in no time hahah i trim mine and 2-3 weeks and full carpet again.

here my tank.
ada 60
eheim 2075
eheim skimmer turn on after lights out
ada substrate
high led with dimmer
i was using ei but had trouble with green spot algae and since i change it to topica specialised and now it all work fine.

if i miss anything just let me know

cheers
ryan


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## Victor (28 Jul 2015)

Jose said:


> pH drop is a good way to measure* dissolved co2 *but the co2 in the form of bubbles is also very good for plants and its not registered in the pH. I think you should be looking at your pearling. Has it increased. The big bubbles that rise are o2 and not build up of co2 in the plants believe me. How is your glosso looking?
> You dont necessarily need more co2 because you dont need to drop the pH as much and this is the idea behind your test. Anyways just keep an eye on your plants to see if they are growing better at all?


My plants are pearling very well (like before or even better). I have installed the inline device yesterday, so I'll wait a few more days to see if my glossos will be still transparent. My drop checker is lime color during all day and becomes yellow at beginning of photoperiod and remains this color for more than 12 hours (after turn to lime color again). It has about 5-6 dkh, not 4. My last video and picture was made near the end of photoperiod, so there are CO2 and O2 bubbles together. Yes, the big bubbles that rise from plants is O2. So, my very acid ph isn't a issue to animals or bacterias? Thank you.


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## Ryan Thang To (28 Jul 2015)

cool. im just saying what worked for me. how are you testing your ph? i hope is not the api test kits and what that 5-6 dkh??


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## Jose (28 Jul 2015)

Victor said:


> So, my very acid ph isn't a issue to animals or bacterias? Thank you.


I keep a fishless tank too at pH 5. No issues. But it might be if you add fish/shrimp.


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## Jose (28 Jul 2015)

legytt said:


> i was using ei but had trouble with green spot algae and since i change it to topica specialised and now it all work fine.



Upping your phosphates in your EI ferts would have worked as well. Anyways I think youre a good example just test things and stick to what works for you.


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## Victor (28 Jul 2015)

legytt said:


> hello victor
> 
> im glad you did you read my thread about the glosso. wow that was along time ago. back then i had loads of proplem i just went straight in to high tech. lol
> 
> ...


Hi, Ryan! I'm also glad you're here to help . I did a search about problems with glossos and glassy leaves in whole forum so I found your thread . So your problem wasn't excessive flow? Only a CO2 issue? My tank size is 200 cm x 40 cm x 45 cm (hight) and about 300 L of water. I'm using 6 x T8 with good reflectors so I have high light? I'm dosing 2x EI index. I have took a sample of my tank water and shaked it a lot to CO2 outs. After that I've measured the ph and the result was 6,8. I think my tap water has the same ph (I'll confirm after). My tank ph when CO2 comes on is about 5,8 and when it comes out is 4,93. My surface motion is weak to moderate. I don't use a skimmer and I got an annoying surface film that never leaves. So, should I use a skimmer or it's not necessary? Thank you.


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## Jose (28 Jul 2015)

Victor said:


> My surface motion is weak to moderate. I don't use a skimmer and I got an annoying surface film that never leaves. So, should I use a skimmer or it's not necessary? Thank you.



This should get better with time but a skimmer can help. You should balance whats worth it for you because you are starting to have a lot of things in the tank. I think maybe with time and water changes that surface scum will go.


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## Ryan Thang To (28 Jul 2015)

Victor said:


> Hi, Ryan! I'm also glad you're here to help . I did a search about problems with glossos and glassy leaves in whole forum so I found your thread . So your problem wasn't excessive flow? Only a CO2 issue? My tank size is 200 cm x 40 cm x 45 cm (hight) and about 300 L of water. I'm using 6 x T8 with good reflectors so I have high light? I'm dosing 2x EI index. I have took a sample of my tank water and shaked it a lot to CO2 outs. After that I've measured the ph and the result was 6,8. I think my tap water has the same ph (I'll confirm after). My tank ph when CO2 comes on is about 5,8 and when it comes out is 4,93. My surface motion is weak to moderate. I don't use a skimmer and I got an annoying surface film that never leaves. So, should I use a skimmer or it's not necessary? Thank you.


my proplem was too much flow and not enough co2. its hard to get the right balance. im not sure about t8 in a 18inch high tank. i would use t5. eheim skimmer is great pieces of kit only £20


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## Victor (28 Jul 2015)

legytt said:


> im not sure about t8 in a 18inch high tank. i would use t5


But I have 3 lines of T8 over the water surface and each light tube has a good reflector. My photoperiod is 8 hours a day but I begin the 2 first hours with only 2 light tubes turned on (the central line). I think I have high light, or not?


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## Chris Jackson (28 Jul 2015)

I'd have thought that was enough light but why 2 x EI? Surely the whole idea of a single full EI dose is non limiting nutrients as based upon high growth in a densely planted and very bright tank so to double that in a young tank makes no sense at all?


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## Victor (28 Jul 2015)

It's because I've read some plants appreciate larger nutrient quantities than EI provides. I'm dosing 60 ppm KNO3, 10 ppm PO4 and 10 ppm Mg per week + normal EI micronutrients dosage 3 times a week.


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## Victor (28 Jul 2015)

So, my lighting is good? It's not excessive? I'm dosing a massive CO2 amount to compensate this light and nutrient levels. I also have algae, so I need to pay attention to CO2.


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## Chris Jackson (28 Jul 2015)

Well I have no experience of running a tank like this with overdoses of everything. 

It makes no sense to me. I'd back everything off, light, flow, ferts, the lot and let things establish well before gradually raising them up again.


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## Victor (28 Jul 2015)

Guys, I decided right now to use only 2 lights tubes from now. The algae is growing in whole tank and on plants leaves! My anubias is being choked by 3 kinds of algae. Its a good idea to run with low light and high CO2, isn't it?


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## Victor (28 Jul 2015)

legytt said:


> cool. im just saying what worked for me. how are you testing your ph? i hope is not the api test kits and what that 5-6 dkh??


I'm using a ph probe. And the drop checker I dissolved some baking soda in a sample of water to do a 4 dkh water. After that I've tested the hardness with 2 different brands test kits. One told me that water had 5 dkh and the other told 6,5 dkh. So I think I have at least 5 dkh at drop checker water


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## flygja (29 Jul 2015)

Chris Jackson said:


> I'd have thought that was enough light but why 2 x EI? Surely the whole idea of a single full EI dose is non limiting nutrients as based upon high growth in a densely planted and very bright tank so to double that in a young tank makes no sense at all?



I think 2x EI is just to carpet bomb shock and awe and remove ferts from the equation. If 2x EI doesn't resolve the issue, then its likely not a fertilisation issue. I remember one of Clive's tanks where he says he had to dose 2-3x EI to maintain plant health and growth. If 2x EI does resolve the problem, then there may have been issues in the original calculation.


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## Victor (29 Jul 2015)

My tank is also running with low light and high CO2 from now. I'll see if it works. It's a good idea? Or 2 x 30w T8 tubes turned on during 8 hours a day is too little light to my tank?


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## Chris Jackson (29 Jul 2015)

flygja said:


> I think 2x EI is just to carpet bomb shock and awe and remove ferts from the equation. If 2x EI doesn't resolve the issue, then its likely not a fertilisation issue. I remember one of Clive's tanks where he says he had to dose 2-3x EI to maintain plant health and growth. If 2x EI does resolve the problem, then there may have been issues in the original calculation.



That's a bit of a blunt instrument....


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## Chris Jackson (29 Jul 2015)

Victor said:


> My tank is also running with low light and high CO2 from now. I'll see if it works. It's a good idea? Or 2 x 30w T8 tubes turned on during 8 hours a day is too little light to my tank?



How about 1 tube 8 hours, 2 tubes 6 hours and 3 tubes 2 hours?


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## flygja (31 Jul 2015)

Chris Jackson said:


> That's a bit of a blunt instrument....


It is. EI itself is a bit of a blunt instrument don't you think? In my opinion, it was designed that way to minimise complexities for the new aquascaper.


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## Victor (31 Jul 2015)

Chris Jackson said:


> How about 1 tube 8 hours, 2 tubes 6 hours and 3 tubes 2 hours?


I can't use only 1 tube or 3 (odd numbers) because I have 3 lines of T8 tubes, each one with 2 light tubes. So I think it's better to only turn on the central line during 8 hours a day.


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## flygja (10 Aug 2015)

Victor said:


> I can't use only 1 tube or 3 (odd numbers) because I have 3 lines of T8 tubes, each one with 2 light tubes. So I think it's better to only turn on the central line during 8 hours a day.


Hey Victor, you can remove the tube completely to run an odd number tubes!


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