# New pheonix 60x30x30 scape.



## Garuf (28 Mar 2009)

So here she is, my new scape. I'm waiting on a package of plants before I plant it, unfortunately the postal service has let me down, again. 
That aside, here's the hardscaped tank. I hope you critique it in depth, I'm not sure on the rocks but I want the plants to provide the most of the interest with varying texture. 
So yeah, 
Critique away. 
Also, extra special thanks to Steveuk, alataffe, sofirearms, a1matt, nelson and anyone else I've missed for all the help and support, thank you so much.


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## Mark Evans (28 Mar 2009)

it's difficult to critique without know the planting plan. apart from that looks ok. 8)


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## Nelson (28 Mar 2009)

hi
looking good so far gareth  
neil


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## TDI-line (28 Mar 2009)

Nice battery arrangement.


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## Thomas McMillan (28 Mar 2009)

It's a nice looking layout! What's the plan for planting and other stats (e.g. filter, lighting etc)?


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## Garuf (28 Mar 2009)




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## Steve Smith (28 Mar 2009)

Should look great when it's planted up mate!  Can't believe the parcel hasn't arrived   Hope the plants are OK when you get them!


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## Garuf (28 Mar 2009)

No I can't believe it either, I'm waiting on 4 parcels all of which are in transit so to speak. I've not received anything. I even walked to the parcel depot and got turned away because you're not allowed to go ask if they have anything in their depot.


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## Garuf (31 Mar 2009)

Update, Still waiting on the 3 parcels of plants I'm expecting to arrive, nearly a week late now. Had to throw out the Blyxa I bought from TdI, I had it in my optiwhite with the eden while the cube uses the ex1200 and to cut a long story short it melted so badly it's unreal despite having co2 ferts...

Anyway! I started a new job recently so I'll be able to buy funds. Also I should be moving back home shortly. So yeah, It seems to be all go at the moment but not with my tanks haha.


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## Superman (1 Apr 2009)

Recently my postie has been putting the cards through the wrong door. I rung the depot and they said they had a parcel for me for about 4 days. They said without the card I could take proof of address and proof of ID.


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## Garuf (2 Apr 2009)

Update, I posted over on ASW and the comments were all sufficiently indifferent that it spurned me to pull apart the rock work and start again, new pictures up in the morning when I'm not 8 beers deep. 
In my opinion it's no improvement but we'll see, it'd be interesting to get some critiques and "I'd do it like this" feedback. Don't be afraid to really dish it out .


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## Garuf (2 Apr 2009)




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## Thomas McMillan (2 Apr 2009)

I have to say that looks much better. 
Have you thought about sloping the substrate into a heap where the wood is?


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## Garuf (2 Apr 2009)

Just trying things at the moment, Personally I don't want to do just another wood with some ferns on it scape, been there done that. My main thoughts have been simplicity of hardscape and complexity of planting. Think Georges new scape, Jason balibans scapes, saintly's moss tank and Nico's mold breaking iwagumi, the hardscapes are all pretty simple the detail is in the plants.


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## Garuf (2 Apr 2009)




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## aaronnorth (2 Apr 2009)

still #1 for me.


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## Garuf (2 Apr 2009)




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## Thomas McMillan (2 Apr 2009)

The first one is the one


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## Garuf (2 Apr 2009)

This one is still my favourite, it just needs some tweeking.


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## Themuleous (2 Apr 2009)

It is my fav 






Sam


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## Mark Evans (2 Apr 2009)

TBH garuf, any would work. it's been said before your going to lose the wood,and if you dont, the planting will change the overall look anyway.

foe example....this....






ended up like this.





don't think about the wood too much mate. i think getting depth or the sense of depth will be much more important. in the most recent image you've got, the wood seems to close to the glass, which will result in a little loss of depth. but hey, i'm a noob so what do i know  8) i cant even get a sanzon iwagumi right....apparently


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## JamesM (2 Apr 2009)

saintly said:
			
		

> ... i cant even get a sanzon iwagumi right....apparently


I read that, hehe  

Looks good Gareth, love the wood mate 8)


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## aaronnorth (3 Apr 2009)

JamesM said:
			
		

> saintly said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




who was that? lol

Still #1 for me!


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## Garuf (3 Apr 2009)

Arran, is number one the very first picture I posted?


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## aaronnorth (3 Apr 2009)

Garuf said:
			
		

>



this one... #2 then lol


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## Steve Smith (3 Apr 2009)

I quite like that #2 mate, have you tried mounding the substrate at all?  You could do like I was thinking about doing recently, mound it up, have your wood in the middle similar to how it is now, and rocks around the base.  That way the rocks will hopefully stand out more and you get some height into the scape.


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## Garuf (6 Apr 2009)

Thanks Steve, for me scape two is simply too complex, yes it's nice but it leaves a lot of dead space and hard to plant areas.
Saintly, I'd missed your post, that tank was actually part of my inspiration, I'd have liked some bulkier wood but I'm making do with what I have.

Here's how the tank looks today, I've reworked the rocks, mounded the substrate and reduced the foreground. 
Critique away.


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## Superman (6 Apr 2009)

This is the best bar far garuf and would give you endless possibilities when planting.
If you don't keep it like this send me the rocks and the wood and I'll do it!


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## Garuf (6 Apr 2009)

I might have to sell everything superman, you might get your wish!


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## Steve Smith (6 Apr 2009)

Looks nice mate   Are you carpeting something at the front?  If so, I'd be tempted to rake some of the substrate at the front backwards to lower the front 

Hope you don't have to sell stuff mate


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## Garuf (15 Apr 2009)

Quick change of plans. circumstances mean I'm going to be taking a break from the hobby in an active role. After an incident entirely of my own making I've left uni and I'm without reliable income and soon to be without home. All 3 of my tanks are stripped back to just the hardscapes, equipment dormant should I be forced to sell on. Fingers crossed everything will go fine and this is just a slippery stepping stone on the path to something better. 
Bad news aside I've managed to find some norbet sabat (sp) style wood which I've cleaned back and will be having a play with to keep my mind of things I'm also actively on the hunt for more interesting stone than the usual grey.


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## vauxhallmark (15 Apr 2009)

Wow, big life changes.

I hope being homeless doesn't materialise, and that you find a new direction for yourself soon. 

All the best, let us know how you're getting on, looking forward to when you're settled and can get a tank again!

Best,

Mark


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## a1Matt (15 Apr 2009)

I wish you all the best Gareth, lets hope it turns into a case of 'one door opens as another one closes'


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## Steve Smith (15 Apr 2009)

Best of luck mate.  You know there's always going to be cuttings available mate.  That's what the society is all about, helping each other achieve the scape they're trying too.


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## aaronnorth (15 Apr 2009)

sorry to hear yor problems - good luck


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## Thomas McMillan (15 Apr 2009)

Sorry to hear that Garuf, we're here if you need us as always !


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## Garuf (29 Apr 2009)

Thank you all for the support, Still no news on the home front, keeping my mind of things I produced this. 




Doable? Improvable? 
I was thinking something norbet sabat style bolbitis stems, grass, very nature aquarium. 
Critique away.


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## Garuf (29 Apr 2009)

Same rocks, different wood.


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## Garuf (29 Apr 2009)

Different rocks, different wood, same basic Idea. Also my current favourite.


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## Garuf (29 Apr 2009)

More stones and subtle tweaking.
This is by far my favourite and I can see in my minds eye it grown out.


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## TDI-line (29 Apr 2009)

Good luck Gareth, i hope you get things sorted.


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## Tony Swinney (29 Apr 2009)

Sleepless night Garuf  ?   Scaping til 5am, thats commitment for you   

Looks good to me.  Hope things get sorted for you and you can get it planted up.

Tony


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## rawr (29 Apr 2009)

I like that last one too, the large rock underneath the wood is a bit distracting though.


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## John Starkey (29 Apr 2009)

Hi garuf,I love the last pic it looks nice I think low light plants would look cool,if I can help with cuttings I will Free,regards john.[/code]


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## Garuf (29 Apr 2009)

TDI-line said:
			
		

> Good luck Gareth, i hope you get things sorted.


Thanks, Dan. Me too. I'd found somewhere only for it to go in the time it took for me to get dressed and catch the bus to the estate agent... Typical.



			
				Tonser said:
			
		

> Sleepless night Garuf  ?   Scaping til 5am, thats commitment for you
> 
> Looks good to me.  Hope things get sorted for you and you can get it planted up.
> 
> Tony


Thanks, Tony. Yeah couldn't sleep, started scaping at 9pm downed tools and got into bed at 6am, worth it though I reckon. Yeah, I hope I can get it planted up too. Not fancying the Â£70 plant bill that the tank took last time.   



			
				rawr said:
			
		

> You've got some great hardscape positioning there. I like that last one too, the large rock underneath the wood is a bit distracting though.


Thanks Tom, I do see what you mean. When I was planning it I imagined the rocks being the riverbed and the wood becoming lodged while being tumbled down the river which I guess is why I tried to make it look lodged. it's also my "key stone" The scape from which I wanted my focal point and hardscape to stem from. I did swap it out but the scape suffered as a result. 



			
				john starkey said:
			
		

> Hi garuf,I love the last pic it looks nice I think low light plants would look cool,if I can help with cuttings I will Free,regards john.[/code]


Thank you, John. Very kind words and a very generous offer. Yeah, I'm fancying crypts in their, mosses and ferns too. I fancy lilinopsis and hairgrass too but I don't know. Four leaved clover is also something I'm considering.

From here I'm thinking of adding a scree slope to the middle "V" between the 2 largest rocks which I was saving for downoi but I think smaller shards of rocks in this place might work well, I tried it and liked it but I'm unsure, I don't want to lose too much of the planting to the hardscape and I'm note sure if it'll even be viable in terms of collecting mulm or working visually once the tank is wet. It does add good dynamics and more variation in textures and composition but I don't know, it worked so well in Dan's newest tank and in Zigs but I don't know if it'll add that something more that plants wouldn't.


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## LondonDragon (29 Apr 2009)

The last one looks good to me, all you need now is some plants and water!! Its too dry


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## samc (29 Apr 2009)

could turn out to be awsome mate hope you get it planted soon


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## John Starkey (29 Apr 2009)

Hi garuf,this is not a dig at you just some advice the way I see it,as the scape looks now it just needs plants,the longer 
 you keep being unsure the more you will keep changing it,get it planted and stop changing 
 your mind.  
Regards john


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## Garuf (1 May 2009)

Haha, thank you, John. I'm glad you're always one to speak your mind.  
Don't worry I'm happy with the scape as it sits, I just need to put in the leg work and find a full time job so I can afford plants I need a FE too... Once I've got those I'm set though. I'm still shocked at home many have been so generous as to offer support, it's incredibly humbling, a million thanks to you all.


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## Steve Smith (1 May 2009)

List your wanted plants mate and let's see what we can all do


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## John Starkey (1 May 2009)

Hi garuf,I have a full fe for you free,(dan won't mind bless him),if you make it george demo day I will bring it for you,
Regards john.


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## Garuf (4 May 2009)

Thank you John, I'm not sure I can get transport to get there. If I can I'll be there though I really want to see the new tank. Thank you so much. 

Plants wise, I really don't know what I need so I'm more than happy to listen to suggestions. 
Scape wise, How do people see the background? I was considering a jason baliban style really low plants layout but I don't know. 
Wall of stems anyone? Or a mound? 
Hmmmm


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## Garuf (9 May 2009)

Wages in hand I tentatively add plants to my shopping basket, and here's what I'm planning on using anyone got any input before I commit to purchase? 
3 pots Crypt Amicorum
4 pots Eleocharis Acicularis
3 pots Hemianthus callitrichoides
3 pots Pogostemon Helferi
3 pots Vallisneria nana **( might swap for rotalla rotundifolia var. red)
5 pots Rotala sp. ''Green'' ** (might swap for hm)
3 pots Lilaeopsis Novea-Zealandia** (might remove in favor of another couple of pots of crypts/hairgrass). 
1 lillie** (possibly, I really want to give having just the surface leaves as a focal point a go but it's apparently far too big in this format?)
total of 24 pots, should be plenty to kick start the tank surely?
I've already got a fair bit of anubias nana petite and some christmas moss I plan to use, I'd prefer fissidens but beggars can't be choosers. 
Anyone got any input? 
Anyway, look forward to hearing your input and opinions.


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## Mark Evans (9 May 2009)

garuf, sorry for the no rely. i've been a busy buzzy bee mate   



			
				Garuf said:
			
		

> 4 pots Eleocharis Acicularis



depends what effect your after. 4 pots would give you enough to fill the back in time.



			
				Garuf said:
			
		

> 3 pots Hemianthus callitrichoides



2 would do, george will tell you that.



			
				Garuf said:
			
		

> 3 pots Pogostemon Helferi



hate the stuff.



			
				Garuf said:
			
		

> 3 pots Vallisneria nana



you'll have fun keeping that in check




			
				Garuf said:
			
		

> 3 pots Lilaeopsis Novea-Zealandia


it's a tall mother. but then i suppose you'd put at the sides/rear?....



			
				Garuf said:
			
		

> 1 lillie** (possibly, I really want to give having just the surface leaves as a focal point a go but it's apparently far too big in this format?)



amano's used them in a  60 before   

dude, what the hell do i know?..... just go for it.   what ever happens, happens. good luck and welcome to the working world.


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## Garuf (9 May 2009)

saintly said:
			
		

> garuf, sorry for the no rely. i've been a busy buzzy bee mate


haha don't worry mate, I understand. Well I don't, I'm rarely busy these days, I wish I was! I seem to spend all my time looking for houses and the rest of it sitting about in my pants.


			
				Garuf said:
			
		

> 4 pots Eleocharis Acicularis





			
				saintly said:
			
		

> depends what effect your after. 4 pots would give you enough to fill the back in time.


I'm thinking a transitionary plant heading from the mid to the background at the sides. Something soft for the layout.


			
				Garuf said:
			
		

> 3 pots Hemianthus callitrichoides





			
				saintly said:
			
		

> 2 would do, george will tell you that.


Yeah I hear you on that, but i figured the more the merrier. I'll knock a  pot off the list and see how I go.



			
				Garuf said:
			
		

> 3 pots Pogostemon Helferi





			
				saintly said:
			
		

> hate the stuff.


Really?! I really like it, I only want it as a highlighting plant, front centre and right hand side. I did want starugauyne but that's not Â£3 a pot. You like riccia though so I'll call it evens. 



			
				Garuf said:
			
		

> 3 pots Vallisneria nana





			
				saintly said:
			
		

> you'll have fun keeping that in check


Oh, so much for low maintenance lol. It shouldn't be that bad should it?



			
				Garuf said:
			
		

> 3 pots Lilaeopsis Novea-Zealandia





			
				saintly said:
			
		

> it's a tall mother. but then i suppose you'd put at the sides/rear?....


Yeah I wanted to put it in back behind the main rock on the left and behind the rockery on the right where I'd intended to put blyxa but decided I agreed with George and it's been used too often. 



			
				Garuf said:
			
		

> 1 lillie** (possibly, I really want to give having just the surface leaves as a focal point a go but it's apparently far too big in this format?)





			
				saintly said:
			
		

> amano's used them in a  60 before


 That's enough justification for me 



			
				saintly said:
			
		

> dude, what the hell do i know?..... just go for it.   what ever happens, happens. good luck and welcome to the working world.


[/quote]


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## Mark Evans (9 May 2009)

the vallis mate, when it takes hold it spreads at an alarming rate, well it did for me. the other thing is it's height. when it reaches it's height for your tank, you then have to do something about it. leaving your tank, at one point in its life looking not quite right at the back. thats my guess anyway. c heferi is a much better option, but much lighter in colour


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## Garuf (9 May 2009)

Yeah I did concider helfri I finally twigged how amano uses it after seeing this tank:





I don't know if it will be just too light though. I thought maybe juncus repens but I don't think that is as grassy as vallis?


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## John Starkey (9 May 2009)

Hi garuf,I am having a change round in my tank today and I have 2 pots of hm man they are the biggest pots I have ever seen,I can't see me useing both pots so if I don't you are welcome to it for free,
Regards john


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## Garuf (9 May 2009)

Thanks for the offer John, I'll let you know as soon as I can. hopefully people will give me some feedback on their preference.


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## John Starkey (9 May 2009)

Garuf,I get frustrated somtimes Reading your posts,don't wait to see what we all think get on and do it,then we tell you what we think,at the end of the day critques are welcome but ultimatley it's you who has to look at it every day.happy planting regards john.


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## Garuf (9 May 2009)

Thanks for the "tip", John. I can't help it, when it's as an expensive hobby as this you can't help but want to make sure you get the right plants and in the right amounts for the scape the first time, every time.


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## Garuf (18 May 2009)

Plants finally ordered!  That'll make Mr. Starkey happy!  
4 pots Eleocharis Acicularis
3 pots Hemianthus callitrichoides
3 pots Pogostemon Helferi
4 pots cyprus helfri
5 pots Rotala sp. ''Green''
3 pots of Cryptocoryne beckettii 
3 pots of Cryptocoryne Nevellii

I wish crypts weren't so hard to pick, I just hope these give a nice variation in colours, petchi being dark green/purple and nevelli light green. I just hope they're not too big once grown in, I'll be bitter if they are.   

So yeah! Should be planted by the end of the week!

Anyone got a bit of lilly going spare they fancy sending my way? I only need a little bit? Anyone please?


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## Garuf (18 May 2009)

Anyone think I should get some anubias or ferns in there or is there enough plants?
Hmmmmm.


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## TDI-line (18 May 2009)

Sounds like enough plants to me, buy i'm tight.


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## Mark Evans (18 May 2009)

hallelujah!  it's about time mate.


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## Garuf (18 May 2009)

I want to make sure I really pack in as much  plant mass as I can, I really really do not want to have to blahblahblahblah about with algae because I was a cheapskate again!


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## Dan Crawford (18 May 2009)

Anubias and ferns won't do too much anyway mate, if your worried about a low biomass then over-order on the sp.Green or grab some cabomba or something. The list looks alright to me though.


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## Garuf (18 May 2009)

Cheers Dan, I've got some needle leaved fern and some nans petite It's just I don't know if I should add to the wood or not. I'm not like you guys I can't see what a scape will mature into.   
I've got plenty of rotalla I reckon, 5 pots should be loads. Hc and hairgrass are pretty quick growing too. I'll be doing every day waterchanges and half dosing as ceg recommended so I shouldn't run into any troubles, or at least I hope.


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## Garuf (18 May 2009)

okay, no rotalla, went for diplilidendra instead for a change. I'll leave the thread now till I'm planted. I'm so excited you would not believe.


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## JohnC (19 May 2009)

Garuf said:
			
		

> okay, no rotalla, went for diplilidendra instead for a change. I'll leave the thread now till I'm planted. I'm so excited you would not believe.



happy planting, i'm eager to see how it turns out.

best regards,

john


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## Garuf (23 May 2009)

Planting commenced! Minotaur shock on the radio a box of plants. Ian Beale.   
Just a shame my hairgrass hasn't arrived with the main batch.


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## Garuf (23 May 2009)

FINISHED!  
Pictures coming......




...NOW!




Ooo! A parcel!









Full of plants.





Washing said plants.





Tank moistened ready for the big push.









Downoi planted, easiest job first!





Next to the H.C... half a pot done and time for a cupper. 









H.C. finished planting.





Now the C. helfiri, Nice and painless... Unlike the HC which took what felt like forever.

















Now for the crypts, first c petchii and then c nevilli

















Last but by no means least, Didiplis Diandra. Another pretty painless act, even if I did run out of space for it, at least it'll come through nice and dense. 





And finally, how she is now, sealed up waiting for the hairgrass to arrive on tuesday/wednesday and for me to have some dinner and take a walk to the LFS to see if they have any combomba or similar.


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## Mark Evans (23 May 2009)

it's gona look class mate, hopefully you shouldn't run into any ghostly problems.


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## Garuf (23 May 2009)

Lets hope, I've got 2 pots of hc and a few bits of c helfiri left over and a nano just begging to be scaped.


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## John Starkey (23 May 2009)

Hi garuf,looks nice mate ,I would be tempted to fill it and get the filter and stuff going,hope it goes well for you,
Regards john.


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## Garuf (23 May 2009)

Mmm, John I might have to. I've got the filter sitting cycled and ready I'm waiting for the rest of my plants and a new stand to arrive before I fill up though, I don't really fancy filling up only to drain it again to plant some hairgrass and to shift it to it's new resting place.


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## Nick16 (23 May 2009)

i know this isnt nano related but you have just inspired me to go and get one. i think it will have to do with easy carbo though!


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## TDI-line (23 May 2009)

Looks great Gareth, very strategic planting.    

Btw, maybe you should remove your address from the first pic, or you''l get all kinds of crap in the post.


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## Garuf (23 May 2009)

If people want to send me stuff let them waste their money.  
haha, strategic? Yeah, none of the chuck it in and hope this time!

Thanks, Nick. Glad I can be of inspiration!


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## Nelson (23 May 2009)

looking real good gareth.

ps....pm me when you get my dodgy credit cards


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## LondonDragon (23 May 2009)

Looking great mate, this tank looks very promising indeed  looking forward to seeing it filled and those plants all in place.
Good work and good luck


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## Garuf (23 May 2009)

Tank, on it's new stand, in it's new position. 





I just need a tin of grey paint and it'll look very ada.


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## Tony Swinney (23 May 2009)

Good stuff Garuf.  Love the slope on the substrate and the wood positioning  

Tony


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## Dave Spencer (23 May 2009)

Looking good garuf. Shame about the cheap and nasty cabinet.  

Hope this shows how I braced mine. I`m certain it needed it.





Dave.


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## Garuf (23 May 2009)

Cheers Dave, here's what I did to mine. I used the shelve vertically at the backthen pinned this in place then used 3 12x10 shelve brackets to square and reinforce everything. Total cost, Â£37.24. Cheap as chips!


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## John Starkey (23 May 2009)

Hi Garuf,that looks sturdy enough to me, good job mate.
regards john


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## samc (23 May 2009)

looks great mate needs time though


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## Garuf (23 May 2009)

As with any new setup though Sam.
I'm thinking I should be fully planted by Wednesday and I'll fill it then. Got some fissidens coming for the wood and the remaining part of my order, (hairgrass) 
My only worry is that by keeping the tank dry everything drys out, I hope it wont, it's sealed and I've been misting it so I can't see why it would. 
Can't wait to see it filled though, it's been too long. It's taken me over a year to buy a stand the tanks never looked better!


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## JamesM (23 May 2009)

Looks good Gareth


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## Garuf (25 May 2009)

Thank you James. Nothing to report except that everything is still nice and moist. I've been looking for fish and I'm really taken with Microrasbora kubotai I might resort to online buying at the rate it's going, the lfs here is pretty indifferent.


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## Tony Swinney (25 May 2009)

Hi Garuf.

I've been thinking of a large shoal of kubotai, but havent found anywhere that stocks them, so I'll be interested to hear how you get on sourcing some   

Tony


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## Garuf (25 May 2009)

I spoke to Monty (possibly) at Trimar and he says he can get them. I think they're lovely fish. rasbora axlerodi are very nice too. I'd like some aspistos, infact I'd thought about having nothing but aspisto's...


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## Nelson (25 May 2009)

hi,
are these the same as green rasbora :?:


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## Garuf (25 May 2009)

I think that's one of the names they go by yes, neon yellow is the common name I've always seen. The scapes pretty complex so I want some really understand fish ideally. if all else fails I've a soft spot for neon tetras.


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## Nelson (25 May 2009)

hi,
ma at wyevale in enfield always had them.havn't been there for a few months though.you could ask thomas m if he has.
i wouldn't call them understated though.seeing a tank full of them is quite amazing.
could also look here  http://www.tropicalfishfinder.co.uk/sho ... e=tropical


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## rawr (25 May 2009)

Yeah, as nelson said MA @ Enfield (which is 5 minutes away from me) always has them in, they look like great fish. I'm not sure if it's too far for you though mate.

It's looking great, I like the diverse plant selection. I'm a big fan of all of your aquascapes so keep us posted on how everything goes.


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## Garuf (25 May 2009)

Hmm true, I like that they're a single colour. I'm a brown fish fan myself, I'd really like some moth Hara's but they're another one that's rare. We'll see! Bit soon to be picking fish I guess.

Thanks Thomas, I'll keep you all updated don't worry. I fancy myself as the next saintly. 
Yeah, I'm in Leeds so it's epic quest territory, I don't think it'd be fair on the fish carrying them back home on the train.


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## Garuf (27 May 2009)




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## Steve Smith (27 May 2009)

Ooh, water!

Looking good mate   Got your hair grass then?


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## rawr (28 May 2009)

Looks like someone didn't soak their wood...   

It's great, I love the hardscape still. Should fill out nicely!


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## Garuf (28 May 2009)

Haha, yeah the hairgrass arrived okay, I terrified the courier, answered the door in my pants to him, poor lad didn't know where to look. 

I did soak the wood, but it dried out while the tank was sitting about waiting for me to plant it.


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## Garuf (2 Jun 2009)

I was going to do a 7 days on post but I can't find my camera, the tanks chugging along fine, the crypts are all half way throught melting and the didiplis diandra is growing rampantly as is the limnipholia I chucked in there to help soak up anything bad.
The only thing that's giving me issues is that the hc and downoi have started to melt, the downoi went pretty quickly despite having good co2 and dosing easy carbo. The hc is only small bits here and there, but still it's enough to trouble me. I've had melt issues with downoi before but I never got to the bottom of them, they just seem to go mushy during initial set up... maybe it doesn't like "raw" aquasoil?
All this every day water changing is going to see me looking like arnie by the time the 3 weeks is up!


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## AdAndrews (2 Jun 2009)

looks ace mate, its just given me some ideas on what to do on a 125 litre, i was thinking about doing an iwagumi, but this looks brill.


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## Dan Crawford (2 Jun 2009)

Lookin good mate 8)


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## aaronnorth (2 Jun 2009)

another good scape, Gareth, its a shame the last one ended early   Good luck with this one


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## Garuf (2 Jun 2009)

Thanks, Dan, Aarron, Ad. 
I've changed over my diffuser and I'm now running the much larger Rhinnox 1000, it produces a much finer mist and seems to be much higher quality that the nano diffuser I was using before. 

I'd like to be able to get the stones out that are keeping the wood in place as it blocks most of the flow which is really annoying.

Still, the melting HC and pogostemma is a total mystery.


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## Garuf (2 Jun 2009)

Also worth of note, I hate bouyant wood! knocked the rock off doing the water change of the day and it won't go back to how it was! RARGGHHHH. I'll be so glad to see it waterlogged so it'll all stay in place!


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## George Farmer (2 Jun 2009)

I really like this, Gareth.  Well done!

My only area for improvement would be to consider losing the uppermost rock in the center.  Just a thought.


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## Garuf (2 Jun 2009)

Thank you, George, the rocks ontop of the wood are there for the soul reason of keeping the wood in place while it becomes water logged, They're actually a massive liability as they spread the circulation out all wrong. 
Thanks again.


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## AdAndrews (2 Jun 2009)

are the rocks mini landscape rocks??
and when setting up the tank is it best to have the tank already cycled. shall i do fishless cycle first? coz i am concerned about the ammonia from ada aquasoil, ammonia causes algae doesnt it?


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## Garuf (2 Jun 2009)

They are indeed mini landscape rocks, I really like them I did get some pretty bum ones in the mix though. 
With aquasoil you don't need to do a fishless cycle as the leaching ammonia does this for you. The best tips I can offer you are plant heavy add floating fast growers or stems, dose from day one, get your co2 good and stable and do 50% water changes every day for the first two or 3 weeks, I'm doing 3 weeks but then I'm a glutton for punishment. 
Hope this helps.


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## AdAndrews (2 Jun 2009)

ok, thanks for the tips mate, just got some ace driftwood from aaron.. the tank is the downfall though.. it has to be an 80cmx50cm(high)x35cm so to fit on the fluval roma 125 stand, only i have had quotes of about Â£150 for the glass tank alone.. i was hoping to get it cheaper, any thoughts? the chapest quote at 145 was from nd aquatics, inc delivery.. i have tried aquariums ltd and that was through the roof.. what shall i do?


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## aaronnorth (2 Jun 2009)

AdAndrews said:
			
		

> ok, thanks for the tips mate, just got some ace driftwood from aaron.. the tank is the downfall though.. it has to be an 80cmx50cm(high)x35cm so to fit on the fluval roma 125 stand, only i have had quotes of about Â£150 for the glass tank alone.. i was hoping to get it cheaper, any thoughts? the chapest quote at 145 was from nd aquatics, inc delivery.. i have tried aquariums ltd and that was through the roof.. what shall i do?



i think my clearseal is a great tank. no brace and clear silicone  mine cost me Â£97


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## AdAndrews (2 Jun 2009)

do they do it in 80cmx50cmx35cm? i thought yours has a brace, the black at the top. no?


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## George Farmer (2 Jun 2009)

Garuf said:
			
		

> Thank you, George, the rocks ontop of the wood are there for the soul reason of keeping the wood in place while it becomes water logged, They're actually a massive liability as they spread the circulation out all wrong.
> Thanks again.


Whoops, my bad!  

My Rhinox 1000 is a great diffuser too.  Best I've ever used.

Keep up the good work.  I look forward to seeing you at Dan's BBQ soon, hopefully.


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## aaronnorth (2 Jun 2009)

AdAndrews said:
			
		

> do they do it in 80cmx50cmx35cm? i thought yours has a brace, the black at the top. no?




I meant rimless..........  

they do this if it is any good
Clearseal 30" X 18" X 12" (D)

a full list:
http://www.onlineaquariumstore.com/acat ... riums.html


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## AdAndrews (2 Jun 2009)

nah, id rather pay the Â£150 if its not going to fit the cabinet right.. i spose thats what i will have to do

thanks for the help anyways aaron

keep up the good work garuf!


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## rawr (2 Jun 2009)

Â£150 isn't actually that expensive for an aquarium, especially considering it will be rimless, braceless, good quality, the exact size you want _and_ delivered to your door. Keep an eye out on eBay too because there's always some deals to be had on there and you might just get the size you want.


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## George Farmer (2 Jun 2009)

AdAndrews said:
			
		

> do they do it in 80cmx50cmx35cm? i thought yours has a brace, the black at the top. no?


Have a word with your local MA branch.  They may be able to get their supplier, Seashell, to make one for you at a good price.

I had a 60x30x30 braceless, 6mm glass, rimless for Â£25.

If it's 50cm tall then it'll likely be 10mm glass so a fair bit more expensive.


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## Garuf (3 Jun 2009)

I'll endeavor to reply to all comments when I'm sober, but! My tank is a clearseal tank, I removed the brace myself, if you really want optiwhite, pm londondragon (paulo) and ask him to tell you the name of the portugees guys who make them. They're supposedly as good as ADA at a fraction of the cost.


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## AdAndrews (3 Jun 2009)

ok, thanks guys, not going to get opti white unless its about the same price as float, which it isnt


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## Garuf (4 Jun 2009)

I think samc gave like Â£160 for his optiwhite and that's custom I think. 

I've altered the position of my lily pipes and now I'm getting much better distribution of CO2, I can see all the bubbles all through the water column and much more movement in the foreground and also all the plants sway more pronouncedly in the flow. I'm hoping this should stem the HC die off and help everything else get stronger. That's the plan at least. I'll post pictures later tonight, the didiplis diandra is really taking off, so much for being difficult.


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## George Farmer (4 Jun 2009)

Sounds good, Gareth.

Good luck with the HC - seems a few folk are having similar issues right now.   :? 

I've never grown D. diandra.  Looks like a nice stem for nanos.


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## AdAndrews (4 Jun 2009)

i am having terrible issues with my hc at the moment, covered it is, diatoms all over it, i will sort it out, one way or the other.

dd looks an ace plant, glad its going well for you mate, you got any new pics, cant wait to see some


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## Garuf (5 Jun 2009)

Thanks, George, Ill pull through. Determination for this tank to succeed is high so I'll be okay. Worst come to worst I'll swap it out for marslei. I did my water change today and the last of the downoi foated off, the stems entirely dead. I'm certain it was down to my lack of delicacy when planting, that and that they had no root stock when I planted, it could be anything though. I find it best to not jump to conclusions till I can try new things. As such I'm torn between trying staurgauyne or more Downoi, or something else, I need a good transitionary plant to merge with the hairgrass and hc.   
I'm really liking the Didiplis Diandra, it's like a softer prettier rottalla green I've not trimmed it yet and it's not doing the "rotalla creep" but it looks like it'll bush out well. It's a good all rounder I think. It's definitely a more controlled grower than other stems I've used.


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## Garuf (7 Jun 2009)

One whole week has passed since I filled her up with water, I think it's a week at least. There's been noticeable growth in everything but the HC and Downoi. Terrible plants!   
Aside from my dissapointment with the Hc, Pogostemma, I'm really pleased with how she's shaping up. The wood's still not sank as I'm sure you can tell by the brick holding it in place. Please excuse the skateboard on the tank, it's there to block out as much light as I can to try and get a better picture. I'll probably add some anubias nana to the wood but I don't know, I've not decided. It's there if I decide to. The limnipohia entered the tank as a 6 stems 3 inches long It now takes up most of the tank as a nutrient sponge, I'm always really paranoid about start up issues so I'm trying to get this one done as smoothly as possible.
Enough talk, Here she is.


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## Garuf (7 Jun 2009)

Also, added a second drop checker to make sure co2 is as good as I thought it was.


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## John Starkey (7 Jun 2009)

Hi garuf,its well nice mate,pity about the hc but dont give up on it yet,it may just suddenly go rampant,
regards john.


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## Garuf (7 Jun 2009)

I hope so, John. I'm not in the mood to give up don't worry. 
Cegs recent poor co2 comment made me a little paranoid, however. So I've winged in a second drop checker so I can see what the actual level is. I'm dosing EI recommended for 10gallons which might be another reason but in all fairness it really should be plenty.


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## TDI-line (7 Jun 2009)

Looks great Gareth.


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## John Starkey (7 Jun 2009)

Garuf said:
			
		

> I hope so, John. I'm not in the mood to give up don't worry.
> Cegs recent poor co2 comment made me a little paranoid, however. So I've winged in a second drop checker so I can see what the actual level is. I'm dosing EI recommended for 10gallons which might be another reason but in all fairness it really should be plenty.


Hi garuf,just an idea as you know I run everyhing at it's highest without harming fish/shrimps why not hit it with high co2 and higher nutrients,maybe what the hc need,like a kick start.
Regards john


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## Garuf (7 Jun 2009)

It's an idea, but she's still really new. I'll hit it with the big guns once I know I won't get algae I think.


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## Mark Evans (7 Jun 2009)

Garuf said:
			
		

> I'll hit it with the big guns once I know I won't get algae I think.



and when' s that then?....does a little sign appear from the surface saying "dose me"?   

i go full guns from the off. my HC is pearling like a mother...


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## Garuf (7 Jun 2009)

Haha, I'm dosing already! I'm thinking after 3 weeks I'll up my dosing. That way I've got higher biomass and the plants will all be adapted to underwater life and as such can take higher amounts of ferts from the water rather than having them accessible to algae.
This is what Ceg has always said with the "feeding the monster" analogy. 
Please don't tell me after all this time I've not understood it properly.


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## fish.com1 (7 Jun 2009)

That'll look ace in a few months, when all the leaves of the different plants start to intertwine...

I can't help but think maybe some moss for the wood would help?


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## Mark Evans (7 Jun 2009)

Garuf said:
			
		

> Please don't tell me after all this time I've not understood it properly.
> Haha, I'm dosing already! I'm thinking after 3 weeks I'll up my dosing. That way I've got higher biomass and the plants will all be adapted to underwater life and as such can take higher amounts of ferts from the water rather than having them accessible to algae.
> This is what Ceg has always said with the "feeding the monster" analogy.
> Please don't tell me after all this time I've not understood it properly.



i dunno mate, different regimes work for different people. ok, ignore me mate   (toddles off to corner)


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## Garuf (7 Jun 2009)

No mate, you could be right. I just like to do things right that's all. I always get algae so I'm determined to avoid it at all costs. I'll post up what he said once I've filtered through my emails. 

The Co2 seems okay, the second drop checker is now exactly the same colour as the one below it so I'm confident I'm in the upper 30ppm area.


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## Garuf (7 Jun 2009)

From Ceg


> On the other hand new tanks are susceptible to algae due to bacterial instability so there is no point dosing more than the EI values unless you see some specific deficiency. Adding more only feeds whatever algae forms so more isn't always better. If you have poor CO2 or poor flow, or too much light you can easily get algae and then you have a Frankenstein in your tank. This is one reason why people blame nutrients for algae - they induce it for some reason and it only gets worse as they feed.
> 
> Try severely limiting your light for the first couple of months and you can dose whatever you want. Massive flow, multiple water changes and Co2 will do the trick but the light is the real problem... Even 24 watts over a 15 gallon is a lot of light, especially if you have reflectors.





> Well, I'd round down and dose 1/2 the quantities of the 20G. That should still be plenty. Just dose every other day. 3 times a week macros and twice micros. One doesn't need to go overboard or worry too much about micros. I do it to prove a point, but unless your other conditions such as flow/CO2 are perfect, you'll just wind up feeding the monster.



From George 


> Top tips would be daily 50% water changes for the first 2-3 weeks.
> 
> CO2 at 30ppm, dose regular qtys. 6 hour photoperiod, half lighting.


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## Mark Evans (7 Jun 2009)

.....and that is what i do, with full dosing.   50% WC everyday allow for OTT dosing right?


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## Garuf (7 Jun 2009)

I'm dosing EI levels for a 10gallon tank like recommended which should be okay, and it's what I plan on dosing once everything's grown in. I reckon I could up it but I don't know I dare. 
Yeah I'm doing every day 50-60% water changes and my co2 is pretty high. My filter outlet is in the same place as yours and I can see the bubbles all through the water column.


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## milla (7 Jun 2009)

Saw this scape in the flesh yesterday, the photos don't do it justice.
The sense of depth that the rock placement gives the overall scape is lost in the photos yet it's this what makes the scape imo.
It's good now but once grown in its going to be one of the best smaller scapes i've seen.

I do think that you may be getting just a little bit paranoid over the growth of the hc though.  
From what i saw it looked like it had just started to settle in and was putting out new growth.
Keep doing what you are doing and in a few weeks you wiill be complaining about how oftem you have to trim the damn stuff. Can't offer any advise on the ph though iv'e never had much luck with it maybe it's our crappy water in leeds.


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## Garuf (7 Jun 2009)

Thanks, Milla. I think you could be right. I'll wait till I have problems before I change things lol. 
Glad you liked the tank, I think I need Saintly or Georges camera rigs to do the tank justice. 
Interesting you say about our water, I did a water change when I first moved in and killed all my neon tetras called up the waterboard and they were like "Oh yeah we'd flushed the system, did you not get the letter"


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## LondonDragon (7 Jun 2009)

Photos always looses some of the feel of the scape, thats why once in a while I upload a video to get a better feel of how the tank looks. Looks great Gareth try making a video


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## Garuf (7 Jun 2009)

I'll see what I can do, Paulo. I don't think it'll be particularly exciting though.


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## Garuf (9 Jun 2009)

I don't like to admit it Saintly, but I think you might be right, examining the didiplis tonight just to check on how it's going and the top newest leaves are twisted and glassy... I'm about to check James c's guide to see what fert I need to add, get a picture, then I'll go from there!


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## Garuf (9 Jun 2009)

Okay, a picture, not the best but the best the camera is capable of it seems.


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## Garuf (9 Jun 2009)

Is the problem possibly iron and KNO3? Those seem to be the closest matching.


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## Dave Spencer (10 Jun 2009)

I`m a tad confused Garuf. Did you not dose from the word go?

Whenever I start a new scape, there is growth from the word go, which means a full dose of ferts from the day one.

Once a plant shows a sign of any deficiency, that growth may not recover, so you are dosing for the next generation of growth.

Dave.


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## Garuf (10 Jun 2009)

Nope, I've been dosing from filling the tank up. I've never missed a dose. I've been adding 25ml which is the ammount Ceg recommended for a 10 gallon tank, which is just 2 gallons smaller than this tank.


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## Garuf (10 Jun 2009)

Okay, things are worse than I'd noticed, a lot of the diandra has melted at the root stock, I've removed all the dead sections that I can but it's really very odd. No issues at all, great growth, I've changed nothing except for add a heater because my hydor packed up ( I matched the temperature) and the didiplis goes pair shaped on me and starts melting. How very infuriating. I might remove the heater but I think it's some other issue. Ho hum and so the battle begins.


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## JamesM (10 Jun 2009)

I'd do w/c's every other day, adding npk straight after, then trace the next day, then w/c + npk, etc. again.

Don't worry about increasing dosing to 2x from the start too. That's what water changes are for - removal of excess nutrients, ammonia and algae spores.


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## Garuf (11 Jun 2009)

I'm on it! I've upped dosing to 50ml opposed to 25ml and I've taken the co2 back down, closer to 30ppm. This in theory should redress the balance and give nutrients that were lacking. I hope I was just quick enough to nip in the bud and avoid any further complications. 
ON a further note, I'm changing over to fluid sensors chems as I just can't be sure on what I'm dosing. Especially as looking at them none of the chemical crystals look the same. 
Lets see how it goes. I'm hoping for a Saintly or JamesC health tank in a few weeks time.


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## Tony Swinney (11 Jun 2009)

Good luck with it Garuf - hope it improves for you


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## Garuf (11 Jun 2009)

Cheers tonser, me too, I should be okay though. Fingers crossed like.


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## Garuf (13 Jun 2009)

Nothing large to report, the didiplis is still melting, the upped dosing is showing no signs of helping and I'm at a loss as to what it could be. 
Following advise from another forum I've trimmed the didiplis back to about an inch tall to prevent the current growth melting like the old. Finger crossed the new growth will appreciate the doubled dosing. Co2 has been left at a constant as James suggested that it doesn't like it fluctuating, much like algae loves it. I'm keeping up with things. 

On a positive note, the hair grass is growing like wildfire! I just wish everything else was too!


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## Garuf (26 Jun 2009)

Nothing much to report, I went home for 5 days to see family, asked my flat mate to dose the tank. He didn't... Got home to the tank full of algae, the didplis mostly gone except for a few stems and the crypts gone critical melt everywhere, the hairgrass seems worst hit, lots of browning, Should I trim it back to the substrate to start again? I pulled up all the hc cleaned of the algae and replanted what I could, it should pull through, I know how it likes being trimmed. 
Honestly, I don't know why I bother some times. 
I've done 3 back to back 50% W/C and got most of the dead stuff out. I've bumped up the co2 but not sure it'll make any difference, dosing is staying the same at 50mls of cegs teaspoon recipe, till I know what I'm doing. I'll be everyday water changing, again! 
I'll try and lower the lighting too as I know this helps get things steady. 
I'll post pictures if I can bring myself to show my shame. And to think I thought this tank was going to be "the one".


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## rawr (27 Jun 2009)

Keep at it mate, you'll get there in the end.


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## Garuf (27 Jun 2009)

lighting lowered, co2 and dosing upped, water changes everyday. I should be fixed this time next year.


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## JamesM (27 Jun 2009)

Garuf said:
			
		

> lighting lowered, co2 and dosing upped, water changes everyday. I should be fixed this time next year.


Try to do your water changes before co2 on too


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## Garuf (27 Jun 2009)

Have been doing mate, always made a point of it.


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## Garuf (4 Jul 2009)

A quick pair of snaps showing what I'm up against, the tank is currently awaiting being drained to be taken home at this point I plan to take on Steves king of the chop title. I've fitted a spray bar but the thing looks worse than the grubby plants. 
The hairgrass has grown much, much taller than I expected so I'm hoping that the new growth will grow back much shorter and compact, also it will give me chance go get the last of the browned stuff out. I've thinned out the crypts and I've also removed what I hope will be the last of the melted didiplis. 
After the move I plan to get some more downoi and swap the didiplis for something less temperamental most likely rotalla green or ludwegia. Unfortunately the frequent water changes and frustration caused carelessness have seen the substrate and the wood shift, I'll be looking to pack that back up and get everything looking more square.










Here's what I hope to be the last of the diatomous mess I came back to after my flatmate turned my tanks of at the plug. 
I was so sure this tank would affirm my faith in my abilities but alas it has turned into another dispointment and proved I really can't look after a tank, at all. I really need to start getting more meticulous with my maintenance, I think I must have missed been sent out from the lesson on how to do things right when I started, cause my tanks never look anywhere near as nice as George, James or Marks.


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## lljdma06 (4 Jul 2009)

Don't be so hard on yourself, Garuf.  A little algae isn't a terrible thing.  Just up your waterchanges and the diatoms should go away with some time.  Or pick yourself up a couple of otos.  I get algae too, I just remove it when I see it.  

The tank looks good and I wish my wood did that!


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## rawr (4 Jul 2009)

Keep on persisting mate, it will definately pay off in the end. I've always loved your aquascapes, this one included. You have the knowledge and a good hardscape arrangement etc to work with so I'm sure this will turn out great in the end.


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## Garuf (5 Jul 2009)

Cheers guys, I just can't get my head around why I'm getting such bad growth when I've followed everything to the letter. I'm back home now, the tank will be set up and trimmed back hard tomorrow. I'll start thinking about what's going wrong from there!


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## GreenNeedle (5 Jul 2009)

I LIke the way it is with the tall hairgrass.  I want to stand on tippy toes to try and peek over the top and see what is behind 

AC


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## Steve Smith (5 Jul 2009)

I think maintenance is key mate.  I am a bit lapse when it comes to it, and my tanks suffer to be honest.  My 60cm is going to be different though.  I'm making a concerted effort to do multiple water changes.  I'm actually trying to change my lifestyle a little to accomodate a maintenance regime.  I want to try and be up at 6am every morning doing a water change on one of the tanks, or maintenance, before I go to work.  This in turn means I should in theory be going to be a little earlier (probably not knowing me   )

I hear the George is actually doing a 50% water change per day on one of his small tanks at the moment.  Also, if you read through the specs of some of Amano's small tanks in the Nature Aquarium books, he states 50% per day for many of them.   Something to bare in mind!

Keep plugging at it mate


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## Garuf (21 Feb 2010)

Was, I ended up being homeless and it spent the summer with the equipment dotted around in peoples airing cupboards and bedrooms between July till September. Easily my favorite scape, I just wish I'd had the chance to turn it into what it promised to be. Sometimes life just gets in the way.


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