# The value of the Khuli Loach in the aquarium



## FishBeast (25 Apr 2010)

I have been keeping several Khuli loaches in my planted tank for the last few months and I have become a big fan of them. I have found that when they are happy they cruise in and around the hardscape and plants. 

I am loving them also because of the way they clean up waste from the substrate. I have read George talking about rotting plant matter producing ammonia which results in algae blooms. I am thinking also that the waste that the khuli loach eats would also produce ammonia and have the same result.

Thoughts anyone?

P.S. These snails which I poach from the local river and let breed in one of my shrimp tanks are great too. I have read that they only eat waste and dead plant matter.    Not to mention that the fish love to eat the baby ones. I never see baby snails in my tank. They get whipped up hense the breeding them.


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## Ajm200 (25 Apr 2010)

Doesn't their tendancy to burrow mean that they keep uprooting your plants?


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## leetaylor (25 Apr 2010)

Hi, I love seeing their cute faces too...be cairfull with them though I had about 5 that liked to live under a rock and I found one day the rock had settled in the night (after that earthquake we had a coupple of yeard ago and settled on them and broke 4 of their backs!


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## ceg4048 (25 Apr 2010)

FishBeast said:
			
		

> ...I am loving them also because of the way they clean up waste from the substrate. I have read George talking about rotting plant matter producing ammonia which results in algae blooms. I am thinking also that the waste that the khuli loach eats would also produce ammonia and have the same result.
> 
> Thoughts anyone?


That's correct. You can't get something for nothing. Whether fish/fauna eat food and excrete it as waste or if the waste rots directly, there is no way to avoid organic waste buildup in a closed system. This is why water changes in a high light, CO2 enriched tank is so incredibly important. Water changes removes the waste directly and at the same time lowers the ammonia concentration. In low light, non CO2 enriched tanks this is much less important as the waste is recycled slowly and fed to the plants. The low growth rate causes by the low lighting allows sufficient time for the waste to break down and to make Nitrogen products available to the plants. Since the light is low there is less chance of triggering algal blooms. In this sense, low light, non enriched tanks act as a recycling centre or as a sewage treatment facility.

Cheers,


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## ghostsword (26 Apr 2010)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> In this sense, low light, non enriched tanks act as a recycling centre or as a sewage treatment facility.
> 
> Cheers,



You don't mince your words do you?


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## dw1305 (26 Apr 2010)

Hi all,


> The low growth rate causes by the low lighting allows sufficient time for the waste to break down and to make Nitrogen products available to the plants. Since the light is low there is less chance of triggering algal blooms. In this sense, low light, non enriched tanks act as a recycling centre or as a sewage treatment facility.


Very true and an apt analogy, but the whole biological filtration system can be very effective, and potentially can produce very high quality water. Particularly once you've move into the realms of planted wet and dry trickle filters (where you have a large surface area of water for gas exchange, and a method of exporting NO3 (the plants)), you can potentially treat "effluent" (your aquarium water) with a very high Biochemical Oxygen Demand (BOD).

For those who are interested in the analogy with a sewage treatment facility this Wikipedia link give a good overview.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickling_filter.

cheers Darrel


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## ghostsword (26 Apr 2010)

Thanks Darrel ... 

I still find it odd to compare the tank water to a sewage treatment facility, where I very much doubt that any plant would survive.

The comparison done was that non enriched tanks act as a sewage treatment facility, which it seems to be an exaggerated  comparison. 

Even to compare a tank to a trickle filter is far out.   

Obviously to keep a tank in such a balance that what is sent out by the fish is used by the plants, in such a way that the only intervention would be to perform water changes is hard, at least I found it, but achievable. 

I do not agree with the fact that a low tech tank can be compared with a recycling centre or a sewage treatment facility.


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## leetaylor (26 Apr 2010)

My word...the pooor Khuli loaches swiming arouns in a sewage works!


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## ceg4048 (27 Apr 2010)

Hi,
   This is a Matrix induced denial. Free...Your...Mind.
Instead of resisting the comparison of a planted tank with a sewage treatment works, try considering a sewage treatment works as a low tech tank where poop is recycled into viable nutrition and returned to the system whole and clean.

Have you ever seen a cow pie in a grass field? Isn't the grass greener in the centre of the pie? Do you know the reason that small fruit are attractive food for birds? The seeds pass through the birds guts and are excreted with a ready made supply of nutrition. This gives the seed an incredible advantage, especially if it lands in a region that is poor in nutrition. . All the nitrogen, Phosphorous and Potassium that has ever been created and that will ever exist in the universe has already been created. There is no more being created, therefore recycling is vital to organic existence. Nitrogen (as well as other elements) merely changes it's form to suit the organism that is using it in their unique manner. In a cow pie the Nitrogen exists as ammonia, in a blade of grass that same Nitrogen is taken up and is used to build chlorophyll, without which the cow would never have anything to eat to produce the cow pie in the first place. 8) 

Cheers,


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## ghostsword (27 Apr 2010)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Hi,
> This is a Matrix induced denial. Free...Your...Mind.
> Instead of resisting the comparison of a planted tank with a sewage treatment works, try considering a sewage treatment works as a low tech tank where poop is recycled into viable nutrition and returned to the system whole and clean.




Ceg, have you even been at a sewage treatment plant? There is one closer to me, about 5km, in Becton, and in the summer it stinks like mad even at 2km from it. I very much doubt that anything would grow on it. 

However, you are right with regards to the cow pie, the birds, and how the seeds and grass use those extra nutrients to grow. Not long ago, in Portugal, people would grow strawberries in horse manure.

Maybe I do need to free my mind, it is hard to compare a tank to a sewage plant, especially knowing what a sewage treatment plant looks like, and smells like..


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## dw1305 (27 Apr 2010)

Hi all,
Luis I've visited plenty of sewage plants (just a perk of the job really) and  it may be difficult to believe, but they are much less smelly than they used to be. 

We have a great visit with the students to the large sewage works at Avonmouth (Bristol), where we used to get a student to ask the guide why there was paper trapped in the rafters of one of plant buildings, and he used to explain that it was toilet paper and it was an interesting story how it got there, you can probably guess the rest. 

But the sewage treatment works is an apt analogy, all that really differs is the BOD of the water/effluent/sewage that you are treating. 

Have a look at  these links from the FAO for the Aquaculture industry:
"Building an ecosystem approach to aquaculture".
http://www.fao.org/docrep/011/i0339e/i0339e00.htm and   "Inland Aquaculture Engineering: Chapter 21 Aeration and Oxygenation in Aquaculture". http://www.fao.org/docrep/x5744e/x5744e0m.htm

cheers Darrel


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## chilled84 (27 Apr 2010)

dw1305 said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> Luis I've visited plenty of sewage plants (just a perk of the job really) and  it may be difficult to believe, but they are much less smelly than they used to be.
> 
> We have a great visit with the students to the large sewage works at Avonmouth (Bristol), where we used to get a student to ask the guide why there was paper trapped in the rafters of one of plant buildings, and he used to explain that it was toilet paper and it was an interesting story how it got there, you can probably guess the rest.
> ...





> paper trapped in the rafters



Exsplain more lol, im intreaged. Was the group stood in an area where the waste come through?


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## ghostsword (27 Apr 2010)

dw1305 said:
			
		

> Have a look at  these links from the FAO for the Aquaculture industry:
> "Building an ecosystem approach to aquaculture".
> http://www.fao.org/docrep/011/i0339e/i0339e00.htm and   "Inland Aquaculture Engineering: Chapter 21 Aeration and Oxygenation in Aquaculture". http://www.fao.org/docrep/x5744e/x5744e0m.htm
> 
> cheers Darrel




Cheers Darrell, 

Great articles. So in theory one can set-up a tank in such a way that it would be self sustaining? Apart from adding water to top up evaporation nothing else would be needed.


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## dw1305 (27 Apr 2010)

Hi all, 
Luis wrote 





> So in theory one can set-up a tank in such a way that it would be self sustaining? Apart from adding water to top up evaporation nothing else would be needed.


 This is pretty much what Diana Walstad originally said, and also is what Tom Barr did with the tank in this thread (right at the end)


 

http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=8592. 

cheers Darrel


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## ghostsword (27 Apr 2010)

dw1305 said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> Luis wrote
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> 
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I am never ceasing to learn new things on this forum.. 

This is something that I would aim at, however I am sure that it cannot be easy to accomplish.

A large water volume would be necessary and easier to achieve the results than on 100L or less, right?


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## leetaylor (28 Apr 2010)

well i just wish the farmers would stop spreadding muck as soon as it gets warm!


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## ceg4048 (28 Apr 2010)

ghostsword said:
			
		

> dw1305 said:
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No. It doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is that you have a good quantity of healthy plants to do the job. This is not difficult at all. Keep the lighting levels low and the plants do the rest.

Some people are switching over to non-CO2 tanks because of the lowered levels of stress/maintenance required. In a non planted tank, avoiding water changes is an anathema. In a planted tank however, the detoxification is amazing. Not enough publicity of this type of tank is given, mainly because the high tech tanks get most of the credit and is more sexy than low tech. In a way, we are as guilty as the marketing folks in corporations. Growth rates are slow in a low tech tank and everyone wants instant success and gratification only achievable in CO2 enriched tanks. But look at the problems generated by high energy levels. remember that the science isn't any different in a Walstead type tank. Only the operating regime is different. The different regime simply makes different applications of the science possible in one type tank that is not possible in the other.

Cheers,


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## GreenNeedle (28 Apr 2010)

I'm doing my bit for publicity. lol

As Ceg says water changes in a non planted tank are essential. In a high light, high maintenance CO2 tank they are not essential but we do them as part of the routine.  They can get by without water changes too because of the plants but due to the higher light things can go wrong pretty quickly and we use the water change to 'dilute' many of the baddies.

My tank switched over to non CO2 in September and there have been no water changes since.  Thats right 8 months with no water changes, only the odd top up here and there due to evaporation.  Virtually zero algae, because as Darrel says all of our tanks have algae in them, the question is quantity.  there will be no tank with zero algae but we can try our best to keep algae at a minimum level.

The only maintenance I now do on my tanks is to clean the filter and pipes once a month.  Other than that, I put zero ferts in, do no vacuuming, do no water changes.  Heavy fish load and excess feeding sort out the nutrients and the 'lowlight' means I get away with no CO2 

The 3 year old substrate with leonardite in it help with CO2 and carbon addition.

AC


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## ghostsword (28 Apr 2010)

> Growth rates are slow in a low tech tank and everyone wants instant success and gratification only achievable in CO2 enriched tanks.



Thanks ceg. I will research more about this sort of tanks, and see if I can replicate it on a 30cm cube, with low light levels, maybe two arcadia 11w lights. 

I wouldn't mind having just Java Fern, Anubias and mosses, but I am very worried about algae. 

I will open a thread, or search for one on the forum, so that I can learn more about this sort of setup.

Thanks once again.


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## Kosh42-EFG (29 Apr 2010)

Expensive book, but a good read on the subject: 

I have a Walstead style tank at the moment... I top-up water and did a water change six months ago... The first is three years... I've also started adding minimal ferts once a week as the substrate has become exhausted...


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## ghostsword (29 Apr 2010)

Many thanks, this is something that I will try for sure. 

Will look for the book, I would like to learn more about it.


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## Kosh42-EFG (30 Apr 2010)

FYI, a quick shot of my Walstead tank:







Sorry for the quality, taken on the phone...

Just looked at the thread title...


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## ghostsword (30 Apr 2010)

It looks good..  no algae.


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## cichlidlover (29 May 2010)

hey you guys,
before you condemn sewage treatment plants, i want to share a little secret with you...i have been growing tomatoes in dried treated sewage sludge for years and the fruit is far better than anything grown in compost...honest!!


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## Etherelda (1 Jun 2010)

ghostsword said:
			
		

> I still find it odd to compare the tank water to a sewage treatment facility, where I very much doubt that any plant would survive.



http://www.scarborougheveningnews.co.uk ... 5652742.jp


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## Etherelda (1 Jun 2010)

ghostsword said:
			
		

> ceg4048 said:
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I spend my winter weekends collecting horse poo from local stables, and putting it all over my allotment, and in the garden, for the potatoes, strawbs, roses, you name it. Fantastic stuff as long as it doesn't have aminopyralid in it, it has devastated several allotments round my way. I hope it doesn't effect the water round here!


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## ghostsword (1 Jun 2010)

Etherelda said:
			
		

> ghostsword said:
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This picture clearly shows a plucky plant growing among the rags and paper which were removed during the first stage of the process at the waste water treatment works off Coastal Road, Burniston.

The tomatoes had grown on dry sewage, not on the water.


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## dw1305 (2 Jun 2010)

Hi all,
The de-watered sewage sludge from traditional sewage farms all ways grows a fantastic crop of tomatoes, the other great sewage vectored seed is Fig (_Ficus carica_), that is where all the ones growing out of the embankments along the river Thames come from as well. If you can find a river where you have both sewage and hot water from a power station it is "Fig heaven". The other 2 places I've seen them doing very well are along the river Don in Sheffield (warm water from the steelworks), and the Bristol Avon at Bradford on Avon (warmer water from the mills?).


> Fantastic stuff as long as it doesn't have aminopyralid in it, it has devastated several allotments round my way.


 been a real problem on our allotment as well, when I first saw all the "curly" potato plants I thought it was hormone weed-killer spray drift from the council glyphosating the verge, but I soon found otherwise.
<http://www.allotment.org.uk/garden-diary/261/contaminated-manure-aminopyralid-update/>

cheers Darrel


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## ghostsword (2 Jun 2010)

Maybe there really is something we can do with the refuse others throw away. I have heard of dry refuse pelets being used for fertilizers, I think that I saw it on "Welcome to Lagos" program, the first one. 

On a tank, when is the tipping point?... between poisoning the fish and killing everything, and providing a self sustaining environment with plants, needing just us to top up with water.


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## arty (19 Jun 2010)

I like khuli, they very tricky and eat snails


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