# Fertiliser may be affecting water analysis.



## Robert Fletcher (20 Nov 2017)

I am addressing this questions to anyone using the “Evolution Aqua – The Aquascaper – Complete Liquid Plant Food” or anyone with similar experience with another like product.

Running CO2, I have been dosing my 110 litre tank at the ‘High” rate for a week now. Today I took it on to do a water analysis using the API Master Test Kit. Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate was off the scale but the fish looked happy enough, very well in fact.

I rang David at Aquarium Gardens who told me that in the shop they only test for CO2 and do the recommended water change. That I should follow this.

I do have full confidence there. However I am still puzzled by the reading. At that rate the fish should be dead. From my experience in medicine reagents can give false positives. 

So has anyone found the same thing as I have?

Thanks….


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## Roediger (21 Nov 2017)

Robert Fletcher said:


> I am addressing this questions to anyone using the “Evolution Aqua – The Aquascaper – Complete Liquid Plant Food” or anyone with similar experience with another like product.
> 
> Running CO2, I have been dosing my 110 litre tank at the ‘High” rate for a week now. Today I took it on to do a water analysis using the API Master Test Kit. Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate was off the scale but the fish looked happy enough, very well in fact.
> 
> ...



Hello. 

I am new to planted tanks, and on ukaps site. From what i have learned from these good fellows is dont worry too much on fert readings. I have a test kit and was more worried about what the kit said, and not what the plants needed or their deficiency.

Since I stoped doing readings my plants look alot healthier and not 1 fish has died. And if it did.. it be from gasping them with co2. 

None of my stock has died from high nitrate  and phosphate lvls hooe this helps =)


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## roadmaster (21 Nov 2017)

If indeed ammonia and nitrites are off the chart's,fishes will be NFL (not for long).
Both are toxic.


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## Robert Fletcher (21 Nov 2017)

roadmaster said:


> If indeed ammonia and nitrites are off the chart's,fishes will be NFL (not for long).
> Both are toxic.


That is exactly what I am thinking. Looking at my fish at this moment they seem very happy and enjoyed breakfast.  I think we probably use reagents too often. Thanks for your comment.


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## PARAGUAY (21 Nov 2017)

Check the kit expiry?Tend to just test for nitrite myself .


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## Robert Fletcher (21 Nov 2017)

Roediger said:


> Hello.
> 
> I am new to planted tanks, and on ukaps site. From what i have learned from these good fellows is dont worry too much on fert readings. I have a test kit and was more worried about what the kit said, and not what the plants needed or their deficiency.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your reply and I agree with you. I was interested in others experience. I will say my plants are growing well on this ferts.


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## Robert Fletcher (21 Nov 2017)

PARAGUAY said:


> Check the kit expiry?Tend to just test for nitrite myself .


What ferts are you using?


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## nel.pogorzelska (21 Nov 2017)

Most fertilizers are composed of simple salts like KNO3. This NO3 ion is exactly the same thing that's dangerous to our fish if over 30-40 ppm. It's not some other magical insoluble NO3. Ammonia usually comes in form of urea. Urea is transformed into ammonia by bacteria and this ammonia is the same NH3/NH4 that is toxic to our fish, again no magical insoluble ammonia. So if your test works (sometimes they're faulty), if your fertilizers are like most other fertilizers, you definitely should do a water change.

Edit: there are some substances that make our tests go crazy... But never seen any in fertilizers, mostly in medicines.


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## ian_m (21 Nov 2017)

nel.pogorzelska said:


> This NO3 ion is exactly the same thing that's dangerous to our fish if over 30-40 ppm


Err no. The lethal dose levels for nitrate in order of 1500ppm, way way beyond anything we should get in our tanks. Not been talking to local fish shop have you, offering to sell you a nice nitrate test kit (£20) and a nitrate absorbing sponge (£20) ? This is continual misinformation on nitrates we see all the time. After a pump failure I ran with 350ppm NO3 and 80ppm PO4 with no fish issue, no algae and more sadly no change in plant growth.


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## nel.pogorzelska (21 Nov 2017)

ian_m said:


> Err no. The lethal dose levels for nitrate in order of 1500ppm, way way beyond anything we should get in our tanks. Not been talking to local fish shop have you, offering to sell you a nice nitrate test kit (£20) and a nitrate absorbing sponge (£20) ? This is continual misinformation on nitrates we see all the time. After a pump failure I ran with 350ppm NO3 and 80ppm PO4 with no fish issue, no algae and more sadly no change in plant growth.


I'm not talking about killing fish, but harming them. And yes, 30-40 ppm nitrate for most fish will at least slow their growth and make breathing harder. I believe we should strike to make their homes good, not only tolerable. High nitrate will shorten their lifes, they won't die in a week, but slowly they'll be in worse and worse health.
Of course there're fish with better and worse tolerances. Otos usually are looking bad with NO3 around 30, guppies probably won't show any stress with 150.


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## tam (21 Nov 2017)

Try testing the water you are using for a change, and the water you are using for the change with the appropriate amount of ferts added. That will tell you roughly what's from the fish, the tap and the ferts. If your water/fish are producing enough nitrate/ammonia you could swap to a 'lite' fert or mix your own that doesn't include them. No point adding more if you've already got plenty.


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## Roediger (21 Nov 2017)

Robert Fletcher said:


> What ferts are you using?


I use IE dosing


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## Konsa (21 Nov 2017)

nel.pogorzelska said:


> Otos usually are looking bad with NO3 around 30, guppies probably won't show any stress with 150.



Hi
I haven't seen any ill effects with adding NO3 from a salt in my low tech 40 ish litter tank.I dose daily and regularly up to full EI dose sometimes and often get high NO3 in water column .As for my Ottos in there they even bred and there is some fry still about.
The high NO3 if not added via salt (fert) and with good waterchange regime is often a sign of past Amonia spike gone unnoticed wich is indeed dangerous for fish.
Regards Konsa


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## Roediger (21 Nov 2017)

tam said:


> Try testing the water you are using for a change, and the water you are using for the change with the appropriate amount of ferts added. That will tell you roughly what's from the fish, the tap and the ferts. If your water/fish are producing enough nitrate/ammonia you could swap to a 'lite' fert or mix your own that doesn't include them. No point adding more if you've already got plenty.



My water was showing i had more then enough nitrates and my plants werent looking so good. After being on this site i just focus on dosing and wc. Only thing I am starting to measure is co2


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## Roediger (21 Nov 2017)

nel.pogorzelska said:


> I'm not talking about killing fish, but harming them. And yes, 30-40 ppm nitrate for most fish will at least slow their growth and make breathing harder. I believe we should strike to make their homes good, not only tolerable. High nitrate will shorten their lifes, they won't die in a week, but slowly they'll be in worse and worse health.
> Of course there're fish with better and worse tolerances. Otos usually are looking bad with NO3 around 30, guppies probably won't show any stress with 150.





Konsa said:


> Hi
> I haven't seen any ill effects with adding NO3 from a salt in my low tech 40 ish litter tank.I dose daily and regularly up to full EI dose sometimes and often get high NO3 in water column .As for my Ottos in there they even bred and there is some fry still about.
> The high NO3 if not added via salt (fert) and with good waterchange regime is often a sign of past Amonia spike gone unnoticed wich is indeed dangerous for fish.
> Regards Konsa


 
Yeah same here. None of my ottos have died. Tested water yesterday after increasing Ei. Tanks has around 80 ppm atm in nitrates.


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## techfool (21 Nov 2017)

I use that fert too. I have recently reduced the dosage as my nitrate reading was high and why dose more than I have to? I do a weekly half-dose of micros (profito) to make up for it and to use up the bottle. I've had nitrate readings all over the place, particularly since I used to get 40ppm out of the tap (confirmed by the water board). The fish have shown no ill-effects but I feel that any ill effects would be long-term/ chronic rather than causing fish to drop dead overnight (unlike CO2).


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## tam (21 Nov 2017)

I think it's worth looking at what you are putting in. We know that Nitrate can cause long term health issues, and not keeling over instantly isn't the same as not effecting fish welfare. 

You could have someone with nitrate in the tap water, high stocking density and plant choices with a lower demand for nitrates and they would end up with much higher nitrate levels than someone dosing exactly the same amount of fertilizer but with zero nitrates in the source water, low stocking density and plants that had a high nitrate demand.

If you care about fish, not just plants, then the ideal would be to reduce nitrates until you are only running with enough for the plants needs. If you know you get 40ppm nitrates from the source water, IMO the responsible thing is to reduce your EI dosing by the same. Excess nitrates have no benefits for plants and may well be detrimental to fish health, and, if that doesn't convince you, it's a waste of money too.


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## OllieNZ (21 Nov 2017)

tam said:


> I think it's worth looking at what you are putting in. We know that Nitrate can cause long term health issues, and not keeling over instantly isn't the same as not effecting fish welfare.



Any chance you can post any peer reviewed studies that support that? I've read a few regarding acute nitrate toxicity but nothing about long term.


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## ceg4048 (21 Nov 2017)

tam said:


> We know that Nitrate can cause long term health issues


We also know that putting food in the tank can cause short term and long term health issues.
It would be better for fish if you did not feed them.

I've been using Nitrates for over 20 years and have yet to observe any long term health issues.

The level of dosing that we use in our tanks are nowhere near the toxic level, short term or long term for fish and invertebrates.

The OP would do well to stop testing and save his money and simply concentrate on keeping his tank clean and his plants healthy.

The advice he received from his supplier in post #1 was the correct advice, however, the advice he receives in post #17 is typical paranoid disinformation promulgated in The Matrix.

Cheers,


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## tam (21 Nov 2017)

ceg4048 said:


> The level of dosing that we use in our tanks are nowhere near the toxic level, short term or long term for fish and invertebrates.



That's not what I said at all. What I actually said was that the total nitrates from all the potential sources could add up enough to cause a problem for the fish. So, if you already have nitrates that are 'off the chart' then adding more via fertilisation was unnecessary and not going to help the issue. 

I agree the amount of nitrates in fertiliser are fine. But they don't factor in nitrate from other sources - you have to do that for your individual tank. If you've got for example, an overstocked tank, lax water changes and your nitrates are running at 250ppm+ adding a bit more nitrate for your plants is, in my opinion, daft. 

So yes, I do think it's worth thinking about where your nitrates are coming from if you get an excessively high reading.


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## dw1305 (21 Nov 2017)

Hi all,





nel.pogorzelska said:


> And yes, 30-40 ppm nitrate for most fish will at least slow their growth and make breathing harder.


I like low NO3 levels in the tanks, but I don't know what they are (accurate testing for <"nitrate is problematic">). I know I don't have many of any ions, so by definition I don't have much NO3-. 

The problem is that if you don't add NO3 it is the <"smoking gun" of previous high levels of ammonia (NH3/NH4+) and nitrite NO2-">. If you have a high plant mass it will very efficiently deplete nitrate in the tank water. 

cheers Darrel


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## PARAGUAY (21 Nov 2017)

Robert Fletcher said:


> What ferts are you using?


As now in the CO2 tank Tropica specalsed but just Pets at Home own brand in the non CO2, nothing going on just few easy plants, maybe try the Evolution Aqua one if I redo any tank


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## ceg4048 (22 Nov 2017)

tam said:


> That's not what I said at all. What I actually said was that the total nitrates from all the potential sources could add up enough to cause a problem for the fish. So, if you already have nitrates that are 'off the chart' then adding more via fertilisation was unnecessary and not going to help the issue.


Hi tam,
            What I am saying is that:
1. You actually you cannot tell from a nitrate test kit how much NO3 is in the water. There may be up to 50ppm as limited by Euro laws in the tap, or there may be zero. A hobby grade test kit cannot give you reliable information as to what the concentration level is.

2. Even if the tap water is at it's maximum, adding more NO3 will not cause any more toxicity. The level of toxicity NO3 possesses is in the hundreds of ppm and and almost to the thousands of ppm.

Furthermore, if you are lax in your water changes, the toxicity to your plants and animals has nothing to do with NO3 concentration. The toxicity arising from pollution has everything to do with hypoxia as the bacteria will steal oxygen from the water.

The fish, therefore will die outright or will have long term damage from loss of oxygen, Ammonia and Nitrite poisoning  long before they will ever encounter any effects of NO3 poisoning. These toxins are thousands of times more fatal to fish that NO3.

What we have been trying to say is that NO3 is natures way of DETOXIFYING the environment, not the other way around. By the time you have accumulated 250ppm of NO3, the damage to the fish has already been done by the concentration levels of the toxins NO3 is meant by nature to neutralize.

When thinking about the health of your tank, NO3 is one of the very last components you should think about because it's presence in the water colum is a smoking gun and it indicates that the toxic bullet has already been fired. The fish have already been harmed and the NO3 is merely a residue of the attack.

NO3, as I am sure you are well aware, is the end product of the nitrification cycle. NH3/NH4 --> NO2 --> NO3.
What is much less well known (or which is never thought about) is that the aerobic bacteria that are in involved in this detoxification cycle use a tremendous amount of Oxygen to achieve this.
That's where the Oxygen goes. The "O2" in NO2 is Oxygen and the "O3" in NO3 is 50% more Oxygen.
This is the same Oxygen that the fish would have been breathing, but no longer have access to because it is tied up in the NO3.

When we add KNO3 to the tank it is already NO3. There is no conversion which steals Oxygen from the water column, so this has no impact on the fish.

The more pollutants that build up in the tank due to lack of water changes the more the bacteria will act on them and the more Oxygen they will steal from the water. As more and more Oxygen is stolen the less healthy the fish become. However, in a planted tank NO3 feeds the plants and so all other things being equal, during the day, if the plants are healthy then they will produce Oxygen and will replenish the Oxygen supply stolen by the bacteria. Unfortunately, they do not produce Oxygen at night and they compete with the fish for Oxygen. The bacteria never stop their activity so that at night fish, plants and bacteria deplete the Oxygen supply.

Water changes, gravel cleaning and filter cleaning removes the pollutants upon which the bacteria act. So this is what people need to worry about. They never need to worry about adding NO3 to the tank. They DO need to worry about hypoxia and the problems that occur as a result of hypoxia.

Hobbyists having overstocked tanks and who experience lax water changes have much more to worry about therefore, than how much NO3 is in the tank.
Nitrate is not toxic, but the consequences of pollution definitely is.

Cheers,


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## ceg4048 (22 Nov 2017)

nel.pogorzelska said:


> Most fertilizers are composed of simple salts like KNO3. This NO3 ion is exactly the same thing that's dangerous to our fish if over 30-40 ppm.


And this data comes from where? 
It can only be from someones dream.

Here is a courting pair of Nanochromis in a tank dosed with 100ppm NO3. This is only one example of breeding fish in high NO3 tanks.
If your fish are having breathing problems at 30-40ppm NO3, you had better look elsewhere for the cause because they are certainly suffering either hypercapnia or hypoxia due to poor maintenance.



 

Cheers,


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## nel.pogorzelska (23 Nov 2017)

ceg4048 said:


> And this data comes from where?
> It can only be from someones dream.
> 
> Here is a courting pair of Nanochromis in a tank dosed with 100ppm NO3. This is only one example of breeding fish in high NO3 tanks.
> ...


Well, my fish were never having breathing problems (I never have NO3 levels like that though), but from what I've heard fish like otos or hara jerdoni aren't taking NO3 around this level good. I have to admit it's only what people are saying and not some scientific experiment data. I prefer to be safe and not risk my fish, nothing more.

But that's not the point actually. Let's leave the NO3 alone, ok, you can have 1000 ppm of NO3, whatever (I won't try that though). But OP was saying not only NO3, but ammonia was off charts too, right? The company stated that you can have everything of charts dosing ferts, but that's not true. The ammonia in the fertilizers is as toxic as any other ammonia. So the point is - if the test isn't broken and it shows high ammonia - yes, you need a water change.


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## dw1305 (23 Nov 2017)

Hi all,





ceg4048 said:


> When thinking about the health of your tank, NO3 is one of the very last components you should think about because it's presence in the water colum is a smoking gun and it indicates that the toxic bullet has already been fired. The fish have already been harmed and the NO3 is merely a residue of the attack.
> 
> NO3, as I am sure you are well aware, is the end product of the nitrification cycle. NH3/NH4 --> NO2 --> NO3.
> What is much less well known (or which is never thought about) is that the aerobic bacteria that are in involved in this detoxification cycle use a tremendous amount of Oxygen to achieve this.
> ...


 That is pretty much where I'm coming from as well.





Robert Fletcher said:


> Today I took it on to do a water analysis using the API Master Test Kit. Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate was off the scale but the fish looked happy enough, very well in fact.





nel.pogorzelska said:


> But OP was saying not only NO3, but ammonia was off charts too, right? The company stated that you can have everything of charts dosing ferts, but that's not true. The ammonia in the fertilizers is as toxic as any other ammonia. So the point is - if the test isn't broken and it shows high ammonia - yes, you need a water change


The point for me would be that the OP definitely didn't have off the scale ammonia (NH3), because of the fishes health.

Ammonia (NH3) is highly toxic (at levels well below 1ppm), and although the ammonium ion (NH4+) is less toxic, a change in pH, to pH7 or above, will lead to its conversion to NH3.

I don't think any-one is arguing that it is acceptable to have more than trace levels of ammonia or nitrite, I'm certainly not.

I'm not an advocate of making decisions based on test kit results, because there are circumstances that can lead to the readings being inaccurate. In the case of NH3/NH4+, use of a <"Prime" type water conditioner>" will produce false positive ammonia levels.

Personally I don't like systems with a single point of failure and I use risk management approach to fish keeping. I always have <"plenty of plants">***, a substrate and lots of oxygen, for me they are things that make a real difference, all the other factors are just froth.

From the linked thread 





dw1305 said:


> From our work with phytoremediation I knew that plant/microbe systems, with high levels of dissolved oxygen, can deal with huge bioloads, from there it is reasonably small step to realise that the same approach can produce very clean, high quality water if you start with a less polluted effluent (our tank water)


*** If you have time I would recommend this thread (and linked threads).

cheers Darrel


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## roadmaster (24 Nov 2017)

I'm on board with Clive and Darrel .
It is not the Nitrates from mineral salt's that are harmful, certainly not at suggested ranges for most dosing schemes.
It is rather how the nitrates arrive.
Take away the mineral salt's (KNO3)  in fish only tank for example.
If nitrate level's are off the charts,then the nitrates were most certainly preceded  by elevated ammonia/nitrites.
Is the oxidation of ammonia/nitrites that harms the fish long before the nitrates .
Is a sign of poor maint,poor water quality IMHO


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