# Chemistry confusion!



## WiggyH (18 Feb 2022)

Hello All, help and advice required.

Having invested significant finances (in my opinion) last year, my tank has now been running for over 2 months.
Although many plants are growing well, I'm struggled to get the bright green colouring from my plants. All appears a bit pale, and then gradually gets covered in BBA. 
As a summary of my tank, it is a 64L unit, filtered by Biomaster 250 thermo (2 of the 3) sponges removed to replace with Seachem Matrix. Lighting is provided by a Fluval Plant 3.0 (needed this unit to fit under the existing hood), see image for lighting parameters.
Co2 injection is running through an In-line diffuser. Bubbles at 1 per 2 seconds, co2 checker is showing green through lighting period. Liquid feed is Evolution Aqua dosed 2ml per day, and supplemented by JBL Feropol 15ml after each weekly water change. Substrate is tropica soil.
50 % changes per week.
As far a livestock, 6 cardinals, 2 honey gourami, 1 female beta, 3 Wood shrimp, 4 amano, 4 Nitrite snails.

My plants all started off nice bright green, but have gradually gone more pale,yellowing and brown. Any low laying carpeting has just died back and only the smallest piece of Eleocharis remains from 2 pots (looking sad, yellowy brown). Monte Carlo did the same and now all gone.
Anubias is a good dark green, but gets covered in BBA and has to have leaves removed as is too dense to scrub off. Vallisneria and crypts are the same.
Helanthium is pale, then get the same BBA cover. Hygrophilia pinnatifida started a deep red, but is now pale green.

Thinking it was a fertiliser issue, any increase drastically increases the BBA and Green spot algae takes over the bogwood and dragon stone. The bogwood looks okay in the image (just taken) but I had to take it out yesterday for a proper scrub. Maintenance is taking a while with lots to trimming of overly affected leaves, scrubbing etc. Images are taken 2 days after maintenance.
Reading various sources, BBA and algae could be down to fluctuating co2, but that is stable.

Having a chat with a local fish store owner, who has a planted display tank, looking very green and well established he has suggested using RO water as the water in our area (Berkshire) is very hard.
Doing water checks yesterday revealed my current tank levels. (See attached). None of which (to my limited understanding) seem too bad.

Sat for many hours last night, I could not make out if introducing RO (or rain water) to reduce Ph would make a beneficial difference. May seem to find tap water fine for growing plants.

Should I bother trying to change my water parameters with RO or Rainwater to soften to promote plant growth, or am I barking up the wrong tree, and likely to harm the live stock.

Is there something else I should consider to promote greening and prevent algae taking over.
Over to you clever people.
Thanks.


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## Hufsa (18 Feb 2022)

WiggyH said:


> Liquid feed is Evolution Aqua dosed 2ml per day, and supplemented by JBL Feropol 15ml after each weekly water change.
> 
> Thinking it was a fertiliser issue, any increase drastically increases the BBA and Green spot algae takes over the bogwood and dragon stone.
> 
> ..he has suggested using RO water as the water in our area (Berkshire) is very hard.


I cant find the ingredients list for Evolution Aqua ferts, if there are percentages on the bottle, can you post them?
If youre getting algae by increasing ferts that strongly suggests your CO2/light balance is out of whack, right now youre limiting your plants both with nutrients and something else (likely CO2), and when you add more ferts, the limit on CO2 will get even more pronounced, leading to algae.

Could you get a decent PH pen and perform a ph profile? This will help determine if your levels are really steady throughout the photoperiod.
You can find more information on performing a ph profile by searching on the forum.

Decreasing your light intensity will decrease the demand for both CO2 and nutrients in your tank, this can be useful to do for a while as you are working through some issues.
I would get rid of the moonlight period, 30 minutes ramp up and 30 minutes ramp down is a good rule of thumb, long periods of low light will usually benefit algae. 
6-8 hours at your chosen intensity is a pretty safe bet.

I think you should look into doing your own ferts, it will allow you to know how much you are adding of what, and is much more economical. If that sounds like too much of a hassle then there are cheaper ready made options to go for that have a known percentages of nutrients. I think your tank could benefit from the addition of Fe DTPA or Fe EDDHA because of your hard water. You dont need RO to have a good planted tank, plenty of evidence of that around here


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## Hanuman (18 Feb 2022)

WiggyH said:


> Bubbles at 1 per 2 seconds, co2 checker is showing green through lighting period.


I am not sure of the power of your light but it could be that you are using too much light in relation to the CO2 you are injecting which seems low to me.  Try increasing that. You also need to have CO2 turn on a good hour or two before lights go on in order to have a good saturation when lights turns on.

For the ferts, people tend to focus too much on that before looking onto the obvious. Try to find the sweet spot between light/CO2 first. Remember the number 1 ingredient plants need is carbon, the rest comes second.


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## jaypeecee (18 Feb 2022)

WiggyH said:


> Doing water checks yesterday revealed my current tank levels. (See attached). None of which (to my limited understanding) seem too bad.


Hi @WiggyH 

The attached figures are showing a range of values for some of the water parameters. How were the tests done? Which test kit(s)/equipment did you use?

JPC


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## WiggyH (18 Feb 2022)

Thanks for the quick responses.
Tests were done with API test kits, just your standard kit purchased from local fish store. So not sure how much I can rely on its accuracy.
I will try to reduce the lighting ramp up and down and the moonlight period (which is a shame as it looks cool).
Co2 and light fiddling day ahead. I'll reduce the fertiliser for the moment.
Thanks.


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## Hufsa (18 Feb 2022)

WiggyH said:


> I'll reduce the fertiliser for the moment.


Dont reduce, maybe I was unclear but your plants are running low on nutrients, my suggestion is to increase. 
But you should really find out what exactly you are adding with your dosage.


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## jaypeecee (18 Feb 2022)

Hi again, @WiggyH 

Because of the risk of encouraging algae (BBA) growth, it's probably not a good idea to increase ferts at the moment. I would be inclined to start by reducing your lighting intensity. Fluval's lighting products are the only ones I know that include pink in their choice of colours. So be it. At the moment, I suggest that you simply aim to bring the brightness down gradually and let's see if it helps in any way. Try this for a few days.

Please keep us posted.

JPC


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## Hanuman (18 Feb 2022)

If It was me I would do the opposite. Increase CO2 instead. Clearly if that drop checker is green there is insufficient CO2. Unless the idea is to go low tech in which case decreasing light is perhaps the way to go. Light has been on that schedule for 2 months. If you start decreasing light intensity now plants will need to adapt again.


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## jaypeecee (18 Feb 2022)

WiggyH said:


> Tests were done with API test kits, just your standard kit purchased from local fish store.


Hi @WiggyH 

Why is Rain Water pH included in the list? Did you use rainwater in your tank? And why is there a _range_ of values for ammonia and nitrate?

JPC


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## Hufsa (18 Feb 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> Because of the risk of encouraging algae (BBA) growth, it's probably not a good idea to increase ferts at the moment.


Gonna have to politely disagree with you here JPC, OP has already informed us that he is observing pale leaves and is struggling with yellowing and browning plants.
To decrease fertiliser in an attempt to starve algae is just going to exacerbate his already suffering plants. His plants will starve way before algae does, in fact they already are. Starving and suffering plants will start breaking down and be attacked by algae, worsening the problem.
He needs to fix his CO2 and feed his plants more, and decreasing lighting intensity will ease the way for the former two factors.

Focus on growing plants @WiggyH , not on fighting algae. Odds are you will find your algae problems lessening on their own as you do.


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## jaypeecee (18 Feb 2022)

Hanuman said:


> Clearly if that drop checker is green there is insufficient CO2.


Hi @Hanuman 

The normal colour to maintain during the photoperiod is lime green and this corresponds to approximately 30 ppm CO2 in the tank water. Why are you suggesting that this is insufficient CO2? Increasing the CO2 concentration could potentially put livestock at risk.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (18 Feb 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Gonna have to politely disagree with you here JPC, OP has already informed us that he is observing pale leaves and is struggling with yellowing and browning plants.


Hi @Hufsa 

My rationale for reducing light intensity was simply to reduce the plants' _needs _for nutrients - at least, in the short term. But, who knows? This is a tricky situation and I don't feel strongly about my suggestion. But, whatever the OP decides, I will watch this thread with interest. 

JPC


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## Hanuman (18 Feb 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> The normal colour to maintain during the photoperiod is lime green and this corresponds to approximately 30 ppm CO2 in the tank water. Why are you suggesting that this is insufficient CO2?


Look at the color of the drop checker's dkH solution. Dark green. In any case I don't usually recommend using that type of method to check your CO2 concentration as it is slow and inaccurate. It's preferable to go with a PH drop. If he was injecting sufficient CO2 that PH should be lower, in the PH6.5 range. That 1 bubble/2sec is pretty low for a tank that size with all those plants and I pretty much doubt he is even getting 10/15ppm of CO2 at best. As a rule of thumb (minus)-1PH drop ~=30ppm CO2. You can in fact go above that as long as you have proper water oxygenation. I have a -1.5PH drop and all fish are doing just fine. I also use a drop checker, but its only purpose is to merely evaluate if CO2 is being injected or not. I don't rely on that to measure concentration.



jaypeecee said:


> Increasing the CO2 concentration could potentially put livestock at risk.


Well obviously he needs to increase CO2 by small increments to reach desired CO2 levels. I was not suggesting to open the needle valve full throttle in one go. 🙂

Regarding Ferts he could increase although I don't see many demanding plants in there. Better one thing at a time. There is plenty of Ferts already in there and the soil also is providing the required ferts. Lack of CO2 in relation to light provided is causing all his issues. Reality is that most of the time most problems with high tech tanks are CO2/light related, not ferts which people tends to focus way too much on.


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## PARAGUAY (18 Feb 2022)

I would increase or at least check on fertiliser dosage because what your dosing is l think in the low tech range . Deficiency issue but 2 months is not that long maybe diatoms which can be expected


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## erwin123 (18 Feb 2022)

WiggyH said:


> As a summary of my tank, it is a 64L unit,
> Co2 injection is running through an In-line diffuser. Bubbles at 1 per 2 seconds, co2 checker is showing green through lighting period.  Liquid feed is Evolution Aqua dosed 2ml per day, and supplemented by JBL Feropol 15ml after each weekly water change
> Substrate is tropica soil





That sounds like a lot of liquid ferts, basically 2ml of Evolution Aqua and 2ml of JBL Feropol daily into a 64 litre tank.
I'm not sure how that can result in nutrient deficiency with 2 mth old Tropica soil  (I dose 0.9ml/daily APT EI into 90+litres)

The 3 pillars are
(1) Optimised CO2
(2) Flow, especially at the substrate level
(3) Clean tank

In this case, since the problem plants are at the substrate level, the first query is whether there is sufficient flow at the bottom of the tank - especially since he mentioned that all his Eleocharis died.

CO2 is also suspect but a separate issue. CO2 stability is hard to achieve (despite many claiming that their CO2 is stable, I'll believe it when I see the pH profile) and coupled with poor flow to substrate, thats a double whammy.


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## Zeus. (18 Feb 2022)

Hufsa said:


> I cant find the ingredients list for Evolution Aqua ferts, if there are percentages on the bottle, can you post them?


I tried to find out what it contains many google search's and with various e-mails and got no reply, so it remains on my 'black list' for two reasons - we cant compare it with other commercial ferts and give it a value rating, plus we cant clone it.


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## Hanuman (18 Feb 2022)

👎 to that fert. Sorry George Farmer.


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## Hufsa (18 Feb 2022)

Zeus. said:


> I tried to find out what it contains many google search's and with various e-mails and got no reply, so it remains on my 'black list' for two reasons - we cant compare it with other commercial ferts and give it a value rating, plus we cant clone it.


That confirms my suspicions. So we have no way to find out exactly what OP is dosing and wether it is enough or not. Big thumbs down indeed.

I couldnt be bothered to look up the JBL fert but if I know these old-fashioned european brands, it will be the concentration of a pixie's fart in the ocean, and likely be weakly chelated, which might be a problem in the OP's hard water, especially if hes dosing weekly.

Better to go with something you know what is in, and that contains iron more suited for typical hard british water.


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## Hanuman (18 Feb 2022)

Hufsa said:


> So we have no way to find out exactly what OP is dosing and wether it is enough or not.


It's supposed to be a complete fertilizer and he is dosing more less the "medium" dosage. I suspect this fert to be lean even on the high dosage comparatively to EI levels but I could be wrong.


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## John q (18 Feb 2022)

Hufsa said:


> I couldnt be bothered to look up the JBL fert but if I know these old-fashioned european brands, it will be the concentration of a pixie's fart in the ocean, and likely be weakly chelated,


Ooh, your being to kind. I suspect a pixes fart will add far more nutrients than this.
Prescribed dose is 10ml per 40l, op's dosing 15ml in 62l.





Hanuman said:


> I am not sure of the power of your light but it could be that you are using too much light


Going to assume it's the 22w model or possibly the 32w model. Guesstimating par on these lights isn't impossible. 1.1 ~ 1.3 par per watt @ 18 inch depth. This is based on several fluval light fixtures with known par readings from the manufacturer and hobbyist own testing (we can trust the manufacturer can't we?)

My advice to @WiggyH  Choose one thing to change and see if it improves things. This could be ferts up or down. Decreasing the lights or upping co2. Don't do a combination of these things.

If this were my tank I'd decrease the light intensity by 10% and monitor the drop checker colour, your aiming for a slightly lighter green than you currently have. If reducing the lights doesn't get this colour then increase the amount of gas being injected into the tank.



Once you've got this colour see how the tank responds for a week. Is growth improved, are the pale leaves still pale, is algae getting better or worse?

Depending on the answers to the above you can then start increasing the light levels and ferts, but remember when you do this the co2 will again need re tunning.

Cheers.


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## PARAGUAY (18 Feb 2022)

Well it's proved that the Aquascaper is a good as any all in one fertiliser and easy instructions for anyone who prefers to dose that way. Instructions for any high or low energy set up. Probably out of George's hands because EA are just like Seachem ,Dennerle,API any of these hold back information when developing a range of their products. Commercial considerations. George helped develop it. EA sell it


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## Hanuman (19 Feb 2022)

PARAGUAY said:


> Well it's proved that the Aquascaper is a good as any all in one fertiliser and easy instructions for anyone who prefers to dose that way. Instructions for any high or low energy set up. Probably out of George's hands because EA are just like Seachem ,Dennerle,API any of these hold back information when developing a range of their products. Commercial considerations. George helped develop it. EA sell it


We are just fooling around. Nothing serious. 
This said, none of the products you cited withhold 100% of the information due to laws in place. In the calculator we have added products of all those brands (except API).


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## PARAGUAY (19 Feb 2022)

Stand corrected.  Thanks for that.


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## Zeus. (19 Feb 2022)

I was chatting with @dw1305 in the early days of the doing the IFC Calculator when I had cracked the coding for cloning, as I was thinking could they sue me for copyright etc, Darrel did point out that the formulas for making ferts have been around for many many years and the commercial products we can purchase are just a similar to what's been produced before. So its not an issue, plus the IFC is free to use and no profit it made and the information we have used is freely available on the internet.
As for not releasing data of what it contains is IMO to blind side us as if it contains something magical other ferts don't have. Releasing the data of what it contains is transparent and honest IMO and yes a few might clone it, but it will be somewhere between ADA dosing and EI dosing. Plus if we had the data,  we could also recommend it as good valve like Nilocg Thrive in the states and TNC complete in the UK after all not everyone wants to make ferts.


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## erwin123 (19 Feb 2022)

I am dosing 0.9ml a day APT EI, so a 500ml bottle goes a long way for me. The fact that the quantity of the macros and the main micros is known is important - I wouldn't want to buy an all-in-one fert that doesn't publish what it contains


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