# Water butt water has ammonia and nitrite



## rubadudbdub (22 Jun 2020)

Our water butt water has a slight yellow tinge and has traces of nitrite and ammonia in it.  

 It has been installed for about 3 weeks, coinciding with the end of the sunny weather.  The first few showers filled it half full and I emptied it from half to a quarter (the tap doesn't sit at the bottom) twice to wash out contaminants.  I presumed that after prolonged hot weather there would be more dust and debris washed down than usual.

A week later after a huge down pour I tested the water and it had a low level of nitrite.  I figured the downpour had washed bird droppings or similar in.  A week later it still has the same trace of nitrite.  Somewhere between the numerically impossible <0.3mg/l yellow colour and 0.3mg/L faint orange colour on the tetra test.  I borrowed an ammonia kit and it also has a trace of ammonia, 0.25mg/l according to the test kit.

What would people advise I do to get the ammonia and nitrite down?  My plan was to follow advice on here and  chuck some grass cuttings and daphnia in.  Would the grass cuttings provide a little more substrate for bacteria that will clear the ammonia, or should I just wait longer?  The nitrite doesn't seem to have changed after a week. 

Is the yellow tinge common, or should I worry about it being fish/shrimp safe?  Before I thought about testing I emptied ~150 litres of this water into an 800 litre goldfish pond to replace evaporation.   They seem to have survived.


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## ceg4048 (25 Jun 2020)

Hi,
    Grass cuttings will also provide extra ammonia and nitrite as they rot, so I don't think this is the best way forward. If you want to use a natural method then it would be better to put a living pond plant in there.

Also be very careful with any nitrogen compound test kit. They are notoriously unreliable and will usually lead you astray.

Cheers,


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## Simon Cole (25 Jun 2020)

1) Adsorption of ammonia ions into zeolite. I looked at ammonia stripping, biological, and catalysis, and this is cheap and fast, but a close second. Pond plants are a great suggestion if you have the light because they are even cheaper and faster. Now you've got two options.
2) No, grass clippings add nitrogen, as Ceg said. 
3) Ammonium is colourless. It can be dry of wet deposited. Sometimes it just dissolves from a nearby source of ammonia gas. _" The average background concentration of ammonia in ambient air is in the range of 0.1-5 nmol/mol (0.1- 5 ppb), and it increases up to the order of 100 nmol/mol only in the direct vicinity of agricultural facilities or activities "_
Test kits - fairly impractical and easily contaminated. Agreed - unreliable.


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## rubadudbdub (25 Jun 2020)

Thanks guys. I'll give the grass a miss then. 
I think I'll try putting some daphnia in still to see how they survive before using it for the fish. Unless people suggest otherwise.  

I need to keep the lid on it otherwise my kids will drop things into it.  The pond is already full of stones and the odd toy.    Otherwise plants would haven been my first choice.  

Regarding the yellow tinge, is this common? The house has concrete tiles, built 1960s, with dormer roof section as a loft conversion completed 6 years ago.  If the dormer has a felt roof could this be causing the slight yellow colour?  Or is it just dust and nothing to worry about?


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## sparkyweasel (25 Jun 2020)

Stock the water butt with Daphnia and Cyclops. As long as they survive, there's nothing i there that will harm your fish or shrimps. Plus, free fish food.


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## sparkyweasel (25 Jun 2020)

cross-posted.
Could you make a transparent lid?


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## hypnogogia (25 Jun 2020)

sparkyweasel said:


> Stock the water butt with Daphnia and Cyclops. As long as they survive, there's nothing i there that will harm your fish or shrimps. Plus, free fish food.


 Not wishing to hijack the thread, but what will they live off, and will they themselves contribute to ammonia, nitrite and nitrate in the water?


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## sparkyweasel (25 Jun 2020)

I posted before I saw that OP has to keep a lid on it. 
Without a lid, they will live on free-floating algae. They only put a tiny bioload on the system, and algae on the walls will take care of their waste. A balance soon occurs and the algae and/or plant, and animal populations self-regulate. When you harvest some crustaceans for food the population soon bounces back and settles down again.


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## hypnogogia (25 Jun 2020)

Thank you @sparkyweasel , and would a 20cm opening to admit light be sufficient on a 400ltr rainwater tank?


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## Majsa (25 Jun 2020)

Could that yellow tinge just be pollen from the roof?

If daphnia survives, would that mean the water is ready to use as it is and no need to filter the water through carbon/zeolite?


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## dw1305 (25 Jun 2020)

Hi all,





hypnogogia said:


> Not wishing to hijack the thread, but what will they live off,


They just need any particle of the right size that is floating in the water column. I assume that they generate enough _Daphnia_ sized food items (Rotifers, Protozoa etc) from  organic matter that gets swept in.

The conductivity of the water out of the butts is never more than about 150 microS,  and is usually less than 100 microS. so there aren't many nutrients of any description. When I found the <"caudata.org article"> on adding grass to stop boom and bust , I assume they work in a similar manner.

The butts aren't very productive, I get ~10 _Daphnia_ in  three litres of water. At the moment there might be fifty, in the winter literally on or two., you wouldn't use it as _Daphnia _culturing technique.

When they first turned up in the water butt it was one that had an open lid, so I assumed that they were feeding off algae, and that they were light dependent.  After  while I found that they turned up  in all the water butts, and it didn't depend on them being in the light, or me actually adding them.

cheers Darrel


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## Simon Cole (25 Jun 2020)

rubadudbdub said:


> Regarding the yellow tinge, is this common? The house has concrete tiles, built 1960s



Your tiles will by now have been highly contaminated with airborne pollutants. It's the reason that we always need to wash cars and outdoor windows. Over decades the concrete absorbs and accumulates these pollutants. Scientists tried to coin the term "urban grime" a few years ago, but many people sincerely wanted to believe the air that they and their children breathe is safe and healthy so there was a kind of cognitive dismissal at the time. There is also a 60% increase in stomach cancer and incredibly higher rates of COPD that indicate something like air quality could be a lot more significant that people perceive. Indeed did you notice a widespread resistance to face coverings when the pandemic arrived. We did. The irony is that many people assume the problem is worse in cities, whereas actually the air pollution is deposited a considerable distance away. Scientists were looking at the idea that this accumulates on buildings and causes nitrogen to be re-released at a later date. I am just about to switch to rainwater harvesting as many experts have indicated this can be a highly dangerous drinking source, although from my perspective I am more happy working with a slate roof in the west. So yes, I would expect a yellow tinge. I have noticed this before on rainwater collected from older roofs.  I am surprised people think this is predominantly pollen - when I have cleaned my car windows I notice it looks more black, car emissions.


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## rubadudbdub (25 Jun 2020)

I used to live on a busy road in Coventry and saw several new roofs turn from bright fresh concrete tiles to a dusty brown/grey in no time at all.    I can well believe that the tiles are encrusted with pollution. 

Daphnia will be the canary in the cage.


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## Simon Cole (25 Jun 2020)

I should mention - the 60 % increase in stomach cancer that I mentioned in the post above cannot be "scientifically accounted for" . That means we cannot say it is due to smoking, food contamination, genetics, disease etc. Nobody knows why this increase happened (in the last 70 years).


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## Witcher (26 Jun 2020)

rubadudbdub said:


> What would people advise I do to get the ammonia and nitrite down?


Go to the nearest pond/lake/river etc - they are full of egeria densa at this time of the year - just grab as huge amount of them as you can get and throw them in the butt. Job done. And then you can introduce daphnia if you want.


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## sparkyweasel (26 Jun 2020)

hypnogogia said:


> Thank you @sparkyweasel , and would a 20cm opening to admit light be sufficient on a 400ltr rainwater tank?


I haven't tried, but I would guess that it would work, just supporting a bit less life than a larger opening.


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## sparkyweasel (26 Jun 2020)

dw1305 said:


> The butts aren't very productive, I get ~10 _Daphnia_ in three litres of water. At the moment there might be fifty, in the winter literally on or two., you wouldn't use it as _Daphnia _culturing technique.


The _Daphnia _are a nice free by-product in return for no maintenance. If you want to culture large amounts you need to feed them and put a bit more work into it, but then they're not free. 
I believe that there are different species, varieties or races that thrive at different times of year. If you add some in winter, they should be mainly ones that thrive in winter. I seeded one butt in spring, summer, autumn and winter and always have a good number present. 
I have one butt with a lid, that one always has a few pond creatures in it, but no-where near as many. 
In another butt I'm experimenting with feeding, currently with banana skins, which seem to be good. They are good for infusoria cultures, which is probably relevant.


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## rebel (26 Jun 2020)

I have a rain water tank and you guys have given me an idea bout the Daphnia. Mine is 5000L but my climate goes down to -1 over night. Also I can't see what's going on in the water tank because it's steel but it gets a little bit of organic matter from my roof which is steel. I wonder whether I can make it work.


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## sparkyweasel (26 Jun 2020)

It's worth a go, @rebel , they can survive a bit of cold, even if the water freezes over, as long as it doesn't freeze right to the bottom.


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## Simon Cole (27 Jun 2020)

I wouldn't even worry if it freezes at the moment. If you can get the system really working then the daphnia will heat the water up for you. I actually use spirulina outdoors because we get so much cloud cover, and it helps if they are shaded anyway.


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## hypnogogia (27 Jun 2020)

Simon Cole said:


> I actually use spirulina outdoors because we get so much cloud cover, and it helps if they are shaded anyway.


How do you get the spie Uli and back out of the water so that it doesn’t go into your tank?


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## foxfish (27 Jun 2020)

It is interesting that cats and dogs will always show a preference for rain water rather than tap water.

We have numerous water buts around the house that collect water from our 120 year old roof tiles.
Personally I would not drink the water... but our animals do show a strong preference to do so as do the wild birds.    
I have used collected rain water in my fish tanks for decades with no noticeable ill effects but of course I have lost fish for unknown reasons !
Obviously standing water for long periods in a collection butt is not the best way to store water but i have more issues trying to keep them full as I use so much.


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## Simon Cole (27 Jun 2020)

hypnogogia said:


> How do you get the spie Uli and back out of the water so that it doesn’t go into your tank?



I sprinkle the tip of a teaspoon over the top of the water each day in the morning, and it takes the rest of the day to slowly make it's way down to the daphnia whom like to come to the top. 



foxfish said:


> no noticeable ill effects



Totally agree, fish are very different to mammals, and especially humans. I look at it all a bit like smoking. [thread hijack - sorry] I'm just switching from mains to rainwater harvesting, and I'll probably try to find a good aquifer to source bottled water. I'm actually rather interested in domestic air filters right now. Just in case there is another nuclear fallout event, and because I see lots of poorly-regulated and dangerous emissions in my day job.


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## dw1305 (27 Jun 2020)

Hi all, 





foxfish said:


> Personally I would not drink the water... but our animals do show a strong preference to do so as do the wild birds.


Same for me. All our cats have always <"drunk rain-water">.  

cheers Darrel


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## rebel (30 Jun 2020)

sparkyweasel said:


> even if the water freezes over, as long as it doesn't freeze right to the bottom.


I don't think it will actually freeze the whole water column ( I hope not!) but I can't confirm as I can't see into the water tank.

With your encouragement, I will have a go. This would be a great for water changes because I can give the fish a little feed also.


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## rebel (30 Jun 2020)

dw1305 said:


> All our cats have always <"drunk rain-water">.


I wondered whether drinking acidic rainwater would cause teeth to look like this?
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/2a/8a/c9/2a8ac9a1845c9e50973e6439e2ea5ff8.jpg


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## Simon Cole (30 Jun 2020)

My mother reckons the pigeons are eating daphnia that rise to the surface. She is quite convinced.


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## dw1305 (30 Jun 2020)

Hi all, 





rebel said:


> I wondered whether drinking acidic rainwater would cause teeth to look like this?


Hard water is much better for your teeth. I love our tap water, it is from a deep limestone aquifer <"and tastes lovely">.  I really dislike soft water to drink, you can feel it dissolving your tongue when you drink it.

I've told the cat that she would be better off <"drinking from the pond">, and she has listened to me, which is a first.

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee (30 Jun 2020)

Hi @sparkyweasel & everyone


sparkyweasel said:


> Stock the water butt with Daphnia and Cyclops. As long as they survive, there's nothing i there that will harm your fish or shrimps. Plus, free fish food.



Please be aware that there could be ammonia/nitrite in the water butt and this would not be a problem for the Daphnia. In fact, ammonium nitrate is used to culture Daphnia. Please see the section headed 'Feeding or Fertilizing' bullet point 2 below:

https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa024

I guess it shouldn't come as any surprise that Daphnia (and Moina) are OK with ammonia as they seem to thrive on rotting manure.

Needless to say, fish and other creatures would not welcome this water when added to their tanks!

JPC


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## sparkyweasel (30 Jun 2020)

Thanks, JPC, that's interesting reading and food for thought.


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## rebel (1 Jul 2020)

dw1305 said:


> d





jaypeecee said:


> fish and other creatures would not welcome this water when added to their tanks!


I always dechlorinate when I add any water regardless of it's rain water or not. I can't be bothered measuring ammonia etc and usually my water changes are 60%.


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## REDSTEVEO (14 Jul 2020)

ceg4048 said:


> Hi,
> Grass cuttings will also provide extra ammonia and nitrite as they rot, so I don't think this is the best way forward. If you want to use a natural method then it would be better to put a living pond plant in there.
> 
> Also be very careful with any nitrogen compound test kit. They are notoriously unreliable and will usually lead you astray.
> ...



Apologies for jumping in on this thread. Just wanted to say...
Welcome back @ceg4048 long time no see. But that's probably because I have been out of the planted tank hobby for a long time while I have been breeding Wild Iripixi Royal Discus, but now the plant bug has bitten again....🙄🙄😬


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