# Thoughts on Blackwater Extract products . . .



## Wookii (26 Feb 2021)

Does anyone have experience or thoughts on blackwater extract products such as:

Easy Life Catappa-X
Tetra Blackwater Extract /Touramin
Aquadip Liquid Catappa
Dennerle Humin Elixir
Salty Shrimp Leaves and Bark (extract)
GlasGarten Humin+

I do add botanicals (catappa leaves, catappa bark, alder cones), but my tank layout limits how many I can reasonably add, so I was thinking of supplementing with one of the above.

Also, does anyone know if I can add some of the above to a standard EI micro mix for auto-dosing?


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## ScareCrow (26 Feb 2021)

I can't comment on any of the above but I've heard of people making their own tannin concentrate by boiling down alder, cones leaves etc and then adding it that way. I was going to try rooibos 'red bush' tea in the same way but it was a bit pricey when I can get alder cones and leaves for free.


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## Wookii (26 Feb 2021)

ScareCrow said:


> I can't comment on any of the above but I've heard of people making their own tannin concentrate by boiling down alder, cones leaves etc and then adding it that way. I was going to try rooibos 'red bush' tea in the same way but it was a bit pricey when I can get alder cones and leaves for free.



Yeah, I may try that next year - botanicals a fairly new to me, so I missed the free bounty this Autumn just gone, but will stock up at the end of this year.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (26 Feb 2021)

Wookii said:


> so I missed the free bounty this Autumn just gone


I would say if you sniffed about under an Alder or Oak tree you would still be able to get some of last years drop albeit a bit damp, maybe you could just dry it out? I've been using Micro-lift Bio Co2 for about 3months now, I'm getting reasonable results although that could be pure coincidence and I could have been taken in by the best snake oil salesman on the planet but my understanding is it contains humic, fulvic acids and tannins which I guess ir what we try and derive from putting the leaves in? Not sure about the co2 element. I'm just adding it on a can't do any harm basis.
The product in the UK seems to have an exclusivity deal with Maidenhead aquatics so it's usually in store or available from them online. Maybe worth a punt? Although it is black it doesn't noticeably stain the water.


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## Wookii (26 Feb 2021)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> I would say if you sniffed about under an Alder or Oak tree you would still be able to get some of last years drop albeit a bit damp, maybe you could just dry it out? I've been using Micro-lift Bio Co2 for about 3months now, I'm getting reasonable results although that could be pure coincidence and



It's difficult to know exactly what's in it - do they have an ingredients list on the rear label?



AverageWhiteBloke said:


> *I could have been taken in by the best snake oil salesman* on the planet but my understanding is it contains humic, fulvic acids and tannins which I guess ir what we try and derive from putting the leaves in? Not sure about the co2 element. I'm just adding it on a can't do any harm basis.
> The product in the UK seems to have an exclusivity deal with Maidenhead aquatics so it's usually in store or available from them online. Maybe worth a punt? Although it is black it doesn't noticeably stain the water.




To be fair the guy in the video looks like he's selling it direct from a market stall! 😂


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## Wookii (26 Feb 2021)

To be fair a number of the products I listed in the first post, claim to add the beneficial extracts without any tannins, which make me questions whether the stuff has been extracted directly from botanicals in the way one would hope, or if instead they've just mixed some humic and fluvic acid with water.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (26 Feb 2021)

Wookii said:


> It's difficult to know exactly what's in it - do they have an ingredients list on the rear label?


It doesn't mate, just looking at it now. Mainly says what I've already posted other than "contains microbial carbon, friendly bacteria" as well the the fulvic and humic stuff, 100% natural in big letters and the usual one size fits all "prevents algae"


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## AverageWhiteBloke (26 Feb 2021)

Wookii said:


> To be fair the guy in the video looks like he's selling it direct from a market stall!


he's good at his job mate if he's blagged his way into MA


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## AverageWhiteBloke (26 Feb 2021)

They appear to be quite a large company over in the US with labs dealing with numerous products. There's a bit more info on their site but not a great deal more. Maybe worth emailing them and asking what exactly is in the bottle? Bio-Carbon | Microbe-Lift


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## AverageWhiteBloke (26 Feb 2021)

A breakthrough in carbon source technology that provides cutting edge developments in micro-biology and biophysics!



Contains high quality peat extract
Contains humic and fulvic acids
Contains a blend of naturally occurring vegetative and spore-forming microorganisms
Helps make iron, nitrogen and other nutrients more bioavailable

*MICROBE-LIFT/BLOOM & GROW Bio-Carbon* contains combinations of naturally occurring microorganisms that share key traits for plant enhancement. The photosynthetic organisms will inhabit the root and vascular systems of the plant helping to modify, retain and transport nutrients. Humic is the end product of organic matter decomposition. Organic matter has a high carbon content. When plants are removed from the environment where they are grown, natural balances are destroyed and growth may be disrupted. It is a good practice to restore the plants natural balances with *MICROBE-LIFT/BLOOM & GROW Bio-Carbon*. Dosing with *MICROBE-LIFT/BLOOM & GROW Bio-Carbon* is the most convenient and effective method of restoring these balances. *MICROBE-LIFT/BLOOM & GROW Bio-Carbon* will enhance nutrient availability, enhance substrate and contributes to enhanced microbial activity and the overall biochemical processes.

There's a safety Data sheet on there but doesn't tell you much.


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## Wookii (26 Feb 2021)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> A breakthrough in carbon source technology that provides cutting edge developments in micro-biology and biophysics!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



OK great, so its pretty much just peat extract then I assume.


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## dw1305 (26 Feb 2021)

Hi all, 


Wookii said:


> botanicals a fairly new to me, so I missed the free bounty this Autumn just gone





AverageWhiteBloke said:


> I would say if you sniffed about under an Alder or Oak tree you would still be able to get some of last years drop albeit a bit damp, maybe you could just dry it out?


You should still be able to pyo Alder cones, Oak, Hornbeam and Beech leaves. Small Oak trees and Beech (or Hornbeam) hedges retain their leaves until the spring. 

If you find  a hedge with brown leaves it will be one or the other.  






cheers Darrel


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## Nick potts (26 Feb 2021)

I have a bottle of the Aquadip Liquid Catappa, bought and used it once. 

Did it do anything? I have no idea and I expect that is going to be the same with any of these products.


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## Wookii (26 Feb 2021)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> 
> You should still be able to pyo Alder cones, Oak, Hornbeam and Beech leaves. Small Oak trees and Beech (or Hornbeam) hedges retain their leaves until the spring.
> ...



Thanks Darrel, I'm going to drag the kids on a woodland walk in search for more roots, so I'll keep an eye out for these too. I might have to lean on you for some leaf ID's if you don't mind.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (26 Feb 2021)

I've always been of the impression that peat extracts etc and all these type of products have a mild sterilizing effect to help with fish health although that could be the snake oil people working their charm. 
Walsted has quite an extensive bit about it in her book.
I guess what's in the bottle is pretty similar to what we get out the leaves would be my guess.
I still have a couple of cones and oak leaves in the tank for shrimp graze on but ultimately adding leaves will result in more bi product waste.
I went through a phase of pouring boiling water over them then leaving them soaking in a 8 ltr bottle for a few weeks then netting off the leaves and only adding the stained liquid but this stuff was 15 quid a bottle and lasts nearly two years in my tank at the right dosage so hey ho. Worth try.


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## Wookii (26 Feb 2021)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> I've always been of the impression that peat extracts etc and all these type of products have a mild sterilizing effect to help with fish health although that could be the snake oil people working their charm.
> Walsted has quite an extensive bit about it in her book.
> I guess what's in the bottle is pretty similar to what we get out the leaves would be my guess.
> I still have a couple of cones and oak leaves in the tank for shrimp graze on but ultimately adding leaves will result in more bi product waste.
> I went through a phase of pouring boiling water over them then leaving them soaking in a 8 ltr bottle for a few weeks then netting off the leaves and only adding the stained liquid but this stuff was 15 quid a bottle and lasts nearly two years in my tank at the right dosage so hey ho. Worth try.



Sorry, my 'peat extract' comment above wasn't a negative one (other than perhaps on their marketing spin on the product), I'm in agreement, my limited understanding is that peat extracts are much the same as extracts from botanicals (like catappa leaves etc), its the humic and fluvic acids, flavonoids and tannins. I have a small bag of peat granules in my tank currently as an experiment for that very reason. Their health benefits are fairly well documented, which is why I'm adding them for the benefit of my in tank fauna which are technically all blackwater fish, and also as a side benefit to counter the ever rising KH in my tank from the Sieryu stone.


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## mort (26 Feb 2021)

The alder trees around here keep some of their old cones on the tree all year round, so you should be able to at least find a few if you have alder nearbye.

You can make these extracts from boiling up a load of botanical in a pot and using the liqueur but they tend to be full of tannins and make the water very tinted.


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## Tim Harrison (26 Feb 2021)

I'd just put some moss peat in a filter bag and place it in a filter chamber. It'll add humic substances, tannins and dissolved organic carbon. Humic substances have all sorts of benefits. They keep micronutrients, such as iron, in solution and available to plants whilst at the same time safeguarding against metal toxicity. They are also beneficial for the reproductive health of fish, and can even prevent algal growth and kill harmful microorganisms. And are a source of carbon for plant uptake.


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## Wookii (26 Feb 2021)

Tim Harrison said:


> I'd just put some moss peat in a filter bag and place it in a filter chamber. It'll add humic substances, tannins and dissolved organic carbon. Humic substances have all sorts of benefits. They keep micronutrients, such as iron, in solution and available to plants whilst at the same time safeguarding against metal toxicity. They are also beneficial for the reproductive health of fish, and can even prevent algal growth and kill harmful microorganisms. And are a source of carbon for plant uptake.


Thanks Tim. Any particular type/brand, or will any gardening/potting variant be fine?

I have some of the Eheim peat pellets currently - but I’m assuming you are suggesting much more commonly available (and cheaper) stuff?


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## Tim Harrison (26 Feb 2021)

Any type of moss peat will do so long as it doesn't have additives. I've always used Irish moss peat. I've still got a big bag of Westlands which I bought several years ago and will last me a lifetime. Works well and turns the water the colour of tea, the more you use the darker the tint.

It's very unfashionable to use peat these days for environmental reasons, and I definitely wouldn't use it for potting on, or gardening, the quantities involved are definitely unsustainable. Either way, it's definitely a lot cheaper and so long as you source a more sustainable product I don't really see an issue with using it for filtration, the quantities involved are relatively minute.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (26 Feb 2021)

Wookii said:


> Sorry, my 'peat extract' comment above wasn't a negative one


No worries mate no offence taken. I think the crux of the thread is doesn't matter which way we get these beneficial substances @Tim Harrison mentions in our tank. Obviously picking leaves is the best option because it's free and you get a nice walk out into the bargain. I just bought some bottled in much the same way tropica will bottle some salts for you 
The main reason I bought mine was because I'd travelled 30miles to my nearest ma and they didn't have the fish I wanted so bought it to cheer myself up.


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## Another Phil (26 Feb 2021)

Your local cemetery might well have beech/hornbeam hedges. Hornbeam looks like beech but has serrated leaf edges and new leaf buds are flat against the twigs.
Holm Oak _Quercus ilex _is an evergreen oak which sheds its leaves in april/may, they look like miniature bay leaves, and are a good size for nano tanks. They are more common in south England.
My walk to work took me past all the above and also Lucombe Oaks, Turkey Oak and "normal" oaks so I was always spoilt for choice. (workplace named after William Lucombe, botanist).
Wildlife parks here in Devon have small oaks with leaves bigger than my hand to finger length and very serrated, so it's worth checking different areas and trees.


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## dw1305 (26 Feb 2021)

Hi all, 


Another Phil said:


> Holm Oak _Quercus ilex _is an evergreen oak which sheds its leaves in april/may, they look like miniature bay leaves, and are a good size for nano tanks. They are more common in south England.
> My walk to work took me past all the above and also Lucombe Oaks, Turkey Oak and "normal" oaks so I was always spoilt for choice. (workplace named after William Lucombe, botanist).


<"Snap">, except <"for the workplace">. 

cheers Darrel


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## Another Phil (26 Feb 2021)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> <"Snap">, except <"for the workplace">.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Respect 'bows' 
I rarely post as what I know you know better and post quicker. 

For those who don't know , there is a free tree ID app for Android/Iphone halfway down this page - 








						Holm Oak (Quercus ilex) - British Trees - Woodland Trust
					

Discover holm oak, and find out what it looks like, how it helps wildlife and lots more.




					www.woodlandtrust.org.uk


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## Wookii (26 Feb 2021)

Another Phil said:


> Respect 'bows'
> I rarely post as what I know you know better and post quicker.
> 
> For those who don't know , there is a free tree ID app for Android/Iphone halfway down this page -
> ...



Thanks Phil, that will prove very useful!


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## dwarf cichlid (26 Feb 2021)

I've taken a traditional route to obtain tea coloured stained aquarium water by using pieces of *mopani* wood, an old method but it worked well for me. My local fish shop sells it for £8 a kilo and if you select the wood pieces well it works out as an economical approach, see if you can find some hollowed examples, e.g. big but light saves cash; avoid roots they tend to be heavy.

I checked with a shop assistant and found out most of the mopani wood stays in the store for about 4 years before being sold, meaning it's nice and dry. The bark is sand blasted off and there are dark wood parts on the underside. I make up a bucket of cold de-chlorinated tap water and let the wood soak overnight - it is so dense it does not float.  If it floats chances are it isn't mopani.

The pieces vary in how much tannin is leached, one item produced dark red water by the morning, two others a light red. The wood does not need to be boiled - what's the point? Boiling may deteriorate the surface of the wood and it won't make a floating piece of wood sink or drive out tannins. I then scrub the wood with a reserved stiff bristle brush and rinse off with tank water, before arranging in the aquarium. After a few days a very light white fluffy growth may appear, normally in the region of knots - not an issue your fishes will munch it off quickly. It'll be leaching colour for years and does not rot - not in your lifetime anyway when fully submerged, and it's a one off purchase.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (26 Feb 2021)

You'll be surprised where you find stuff, I've did the out in the woods bit foraging for a while then one night, Christmas eve if I remember I'd been to my brothers for some ale and walked home, came across Alder cones on the pavement. Turns out I had one at the end of my road all along.  Same happened with Oak leaves, I was topping up my windscreen wash in my car and found a load in the scuttle panel where the wipers are. Realised there was an Oak tree where I park outside work. Never noticed either of them before. Couldn't see the wood for the trees, pun intended.


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## Maf 2500 (26 Feb 2021)

Wookii said:


> Thanks Darrel, I'm going to drag the kids on a woodland walk in search for more roots, so I'll keep an eye out for these too. I might have to lean on you for some leaf ID's if you don't mind.


I was out this afternoon for a walk and to collect some Alder cones down by the river. As per @dw1305 almost the first tree I saw was a young Oak still covered in tan leaves so I thought I might as well grab some of those too.

The only problem with collecting Alder cones this time of year is the massive clouds of yellow/green pollen released from the catkins when you disturb the tree!

A good haul:


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## Wookii (26 Feb 2021)

Maf 2500 said:


> I was out this afternoon for a walk and to collect some Alder cones down by the river. As per @dw1305 almost the first tree I saw was a young Oak still covered in tan leaves so I thought I might as well grab some of those too.
> 
> The only problem with collecting Alder cones this time of year is the massive clouds of yellow/green pollen released from the catkins when you disturb the tree!
> 
> ...



That’s an awesome haul! Wish me similar luck for this weekend!


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## castle (26 Feb 2021)

2 alder cones with 1 tea cup of boiling water, leave for 5 mins, drain, then refill with boiling water. You can add this second fill to the tank. 

The reason for the first boil, for me, is to get rid of any nasties that might be there.


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## Wookii (27 Feb 2021)

How about these guys?


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## Tim Harrison (27 Feb 2021)

Beech? Should be fine


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## AverageWhiteBloke (27 Feb 2021)

Tim Harrison said:


> They keep micronutrients, such as iron, in solution and available to plants whilst at the same time safeguarding against metal toxicity.


Would there be any benefit from making up our Trace bottles up from water that's been made out of soaking leaves and cones etc in lieu of pot sorbate and citric acid?


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## Tim Harrison (27 Feb 2021)

The ascorbic acid keeps the chelators stable and the potassium sorbate prevents mould. 
Not sure humic substances of unknown quality and quantity would work that well if at all.


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## Wookii (27 Feb 2021)

How about this tree (for some roots)?


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## AverageWhiteBloke (27 Feb 2021)

Tim Harrison said:


> The ascorbic acid keeps the chelators stable and the potassium sorbate prevents mould.
> Not sure humic substances of unknown quality and quantity would work that well if at all.


I was just thinking about the anti fungal properties, my traces tend to do that now and again. I've started mixing up batches that are less concentrated so I use them quicker. Apparently the anti fungal properties are good for shrimp molting to prevent infections.


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## Tim Harrison (27 Feb 2021)

You could give it a go and see. Not an expensive experiment either way


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## X3NiTH (27 Feb 2021)

Wookii said:


> Also, does anyone know if I can add some of the above to a standard EI micro mix for auto-dosing?



I use the Microbe-Lift BioCO2 in direct replacement for the water in my Macro solution, no issues! It’s a good product, in fact all Microbe-Lift supplements are of very good quality both Marine and Freshwater, Special Blend will blow your nose off when you unscrew the cap, although I use it for Marine only.



AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Would there be any benefit from making up our Trace bottles up from water that's been made out of soaking leaves and cones etc in lieu of pot sorbate and citric acid?



I’ve used JBL pH down which is an Oak leaf extract, works well although the instance I used it was in an effort to resolubilise Zinc Hydroxide precipitates in 10L of Micro (receiving water wasn’t acidified beforehand, oops), which precipitated out eventually as unavailable Zinc Oxide, no other reactions. If I were to have used the extract beforehand the Zinc Hydroxide wouldn’t have formed in the first place, the mix would be good to go!

Ascorbic Acid, Humic Acid, Fulvic Acid and Tannic Acid are all natural biodegradable Chelates, when it comes to molecule size Tannic Acid is a monster, if it scavenges Iron the molecule becomes opaque black (this is what Iron Gall drawing ink is, Iron Tannate), I have no idea about whether a plant can utilise this.


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## Wookii (27 Feb 2021)

I’m hoping these are mostly oak leaves:





No alders, but this woodland is on the top of a hill, so hopefully the next trip to the river will result in some cones.


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## X3NiTH (27 Feb 2021)

I forgot to say I get Zero mould growth in my BioCO2 Macro mix, I do get it in my Micro but I don’t use the sorbate and keep the main 500ml mix in the fridge and decant it into dosing bags when I need it for the doser.


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## Wookii (27 Feb 2021)

X3NiTH said:


> Ascorbic Acid, Humic Acid, Fulvic Acid and Tannic Acid are all natural biodegradable Chelates, when it comes to molecule size Tannic Acid is a monster, if it scavenges Iron the molecule becomes opaque black (this is what Iron Gall drawing ink is, Iron Tannate), I have no idea about whether a plant can utilise this.



Does that mean you wouldn’t recommend adding those organic acids to a micro mix?


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## X3NiTH (27 Feb 2021)

No the opposite, I would recommend!
I would be wary of high Tannic Acid concentration though in case it causes Iron issues (a forum member has seen Iron Tannate formation dosing Iron to a black water tank). I’ve not delved fully into whether Iron Tannate can be uptaken through the roots but it can certainly be transported through plant tissues which is easily evidenced by turning Dandelions Black by cutting them and letting them sit in a glass of Iron Gall ink!

I prefer to put my Ascorbic, Humic and Fulvic Acids in the Macro (If not making all in one) just so I can monitor for issues in the Micro, periodically I will remove fungal growth from the dosing bag when I see it just so it doesn’t plug the dosing lines.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (27 Feb 2021)

X3NiTH said:


> I use the Microbe-Lift BioCO2 i


Do you use it at its recommended dose? It does say for high plant mass you can up the dose but considering there isn't much of a carbon effect there seems little point.


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## X3NiTH (27 Feb 2021)

No much higher! 

Ignoring the initial dose I do 1ml/10L 3x a week, my water remin TDS is about 220, the water is currently sitting at 297 and I haven’t performed a water change in months, only evap top ups. I suppose a picture paints a thousand words so here -






The plants are not without issue, they are Nitrate and Phosphate limited because I lean (lazy) dose these, things are more improved more recently by adding more of these to the BioCO2 mix instead of front loading them all which is what I was doing, good for weekly water changes but not good if you extend the water change period or discount it entirely, there are no fish in this tank so nothing other than pond snails to provide the N.

The CO2 component of the BioCO2 is entirely up to the plant to make it itself by using the bioavailable carbon in the Humic molecule, if it just so happens to chelate an element the plant also requires then all the better for the plant.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (27 Feb 2021)

Interesting stuff!


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## X3NiTH (27 Feb 2021)

I should also say that the tank is light limited!


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## Another Phil (27 Feb 2021)

Wookii said:


> I’m hoping these are mostly oak leaves:
> 
> View attachment 163832
> 
> No alders, but this woodland is on the top of a hill, so hopefully the next trip to the river will result in some cones.


Mostly oak, maybe ivy twig and leaf lower LHS (i have a note saying not to use ivy as it's poisonous). Spider egg-sac top centre. The black dots are mildew/mould - prob ok, @dw1305 might have thoughts.

Your post #35 roots; looks like oak, photo of twigs would confirm. The only hardwoods I've read not to use (UK trees, rather than imports) are Horse Chestnut _aesculus hippocastanum _and Walnut _Juglans _sp.


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## dw1305 (27 Feb 2021)

Hi all,
Yes, Beech (_Fagus sylvatica_) leaves. Tree roots are fine, look likely to be Oak (_Quercus_ sp.), might be Ash (_Fraxinus excelsior_) the Oak leaves look like Oak leaves, you've got plenty, so just don't use any that look different.

cheers Darrel


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## Wookii (28 Feb 2021)

I assume this is an Alder:


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## Another Phil (28 Feb 2021)

Hi Wookii, yes, Alder. You'll see them everywhere now you have your eye in, lots of imported species used for landscaping, with variable cone sizes.
Wood is long lasting in tanks as well.


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## Wookii (28 Feb 2021)

Another Phil said:


> Hi Wookii, yes, Alder. You'll see them everywhere now you have your eye in, lots of imported species used for landscaping, with variable cone sizes.
> Wood is long lasting in tanks as well.



Thanks Phil - only managed to find the one tree with cones on the entire walk. There were several with catkins, but no cones.

The cones I’ve collected look quiet different to ones I’ve bought previously - much skinnier and less dense. I assume a different species, unless they change form through the year?


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## Another Phil (28 Feb 2021)

Wookii said:


> Thanks Phil - only managed to find the one tree with cones on the entire walk. There were several with catkins, but no cones.
> 
> The cones I’ve collected look quiet different to ones I’ve bought previously - much skinnier and less dense. I assume a different species, unless they change form through the year?


Native tree cones are generally smaller and naturalised/imports are often larger. Stone Lane Gardens are about 15 miles from me and have 34 species. The attached out of my bag measure from 12-28 mm.

Fun fact - a lot of Venice is built on alder logs.

edit hazel and birch also have catkins, so you might have seen different trees.


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## Wookii (3 Mar 2021)

Another Phil said:


> Native tree cones are generally smaller and naturalised/imports are often larger. Stone Lane Gardens are about 15 miles from me and have 34 species. The attached out of my bag measure from 12-28 mm.
> 
> Fun fact - a lot of Venice is built on alder logs.
> 
> edit hazel and birch also have catkins, so you might have seen different trees.



Thanks Phil. Yes, I'm somewhat embarrassed by my complete lack of tree identification skills. Even using the Woodland Trust ID app you link to didn't seem like a sure thing lol


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## Wookii (3 Mar 2021)

X3NiTH said:


> No the opposite, I would recommend!
> I would be wary of high Tannic Acid concentration though in case it causes Iron issues (a forum member has seen Iron Tannate formation dosing Iron to a black water tank). I’ve not delved fully into whether Iron Tannate can be uptaken through the roots but it can certainly be transported through plant tissues which is easily evidenced by turning Dandelions Black by cutting them and letting them sit in a glass of Iron Gall ink!
> 
> I prefer to put my Ascorbic, Humic and Fulvic Acids in the Macro (If not making all in one) just so I can monitor for issues in the Micro, periodically I will remove fungal growth from the dosing bag when I see it just so it doesn’t plug the dosing lines.



In the end I couldn't get to an MA to get some of the Microbe-Lift BioCO2, so I substituted for some of the EasyLife Catappa-X and put 500ml in my new 2500ml micro mix with RO water, so I'll essentially be dosing 4ml a day for the Catappa-X (25% daily water changes). That's a little more (once accounted for the daily water changes) than the 10ml weekly suggested on the bottle, but I'm assuming you can't really overdose this stuff given the concentration seen in blackwater tanks, or indeed in blackwater habitats.

The Catappa-X only had a very slight brown tint to it, so I'm assuming the tannic acids weren't very high, so hopefully that won't be an issue with the iron in the micro mix.


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## louis_last (3 Mar 2021)

I noticed a really significant improvement in Bolbitis, two forms of java fern, and Cryptocoryne parva when I started adding rooibos tea to my low tech tank and it also seemed to help with algae. Not only are the plants growing faster but they are much healthier and producing larger leaves too. The plant that seemed to benefit the most was jave fern 'mini needle' that was essentially only clinging to life in the tank and barely growing new leaves faster than old ones decayed - it exploded when I started adding rooibos. There's not much information about rooibos in aquariums online other than anecdotal reports and there seems to be a fair amount of skepticism about its utility but I can't attribute this sudden improvement to anything apart from the rooibos. 
I'm making my own blackwater extract with alder cones now but I still add a rooibos teabag too. Prior to this I was just dumping a cup of rooibos in about once a week, the tint never seemed to last much longer than that.


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## dw1305 (3 Mar 2021)

Hi all, 


louis_last said:


> There's not much information about rooibos in aquariums online other than anecdotal reports and there seems to be a fair amount of skepticism about its utility but I can't attribute this sudden improvement to anything apart from the rooibos.


There is a Plec breeder (and Altum Angel Keeper) on Planet Catfish who uses Rooibos.  Have a look at <"Orange Peel....."> and <"Making Blackwater....">.

cheers Darrel


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## Wookii (3 Mar 2021)

louis_last said:


> I noticed a really significant improvement in Bolbitis, two forms of java fern, and Cryptocoryne parva when I started adding rooibos tea to my low tech tank and it also seemed to help with algae. Not only are the plants growing faster but they are much healthier and producing larger leaves too. The plant that seemed to benefit the most was jave fern 'mini needle' that was essentially only clinging to life in the tank and barely growing new leaves faster than old ones decayed - it exploded when I started adding rooibos. There's not much information about rooibos in aquariums online other than anecdotal reports and there seems to be a fair amount of skepticism about its utility but I can't attribute this sudden improvement to anything apart from the rooibos.
> I'm making my own blackwater extract with alder cones now but I still add a rooibos teabag too. Prior to this I was just dumping a cup of rooibos in about once a week, the tint never seemed to last much longer than that.





dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> There is a Plec breeder (and Altum Angel Keeper) on Planet Catfish who uses Rooibos.  Have a look at <"Orange Peel....."> and <"Making Blackwater....">.
> 
> cheers Darrel



I assume the Rooibos contains things that aren't in standard botanicals (alder cones, catappa etc) then?


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## dw1305 (3 Mar 2021)

Hi all, 


Wookii said:


> I assume the Rooibos contains things that aren't in standard botanicals


<"Different things">.


> Chemical composition
> As a fresh leaf, rooibos contains a high content of ascorbic acid (vitamin C),[5] which is lost when made into tea.
> 
> Rooibos tea does not contain caffeine[6][7] and has low tannin levels compared to black tea or green tea.[5] Rooibos contains polyphenols, including flavanols, flavones, flavanones, dihydrochalcones,[8][9] aspalathin[10] and nothofagin.[11]
> ...


Personally I haven't tried Rooibos (or ordinary tea bags), mainly because I have an <"easy to access"> supply of structural leaf litter etc. I'll add in @Lindy, but I'm not sure she visits the forum at the moment.

cheers Darrel


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## louis_last (3 Mar 2021)

I think in an ideal world you'd use as diverse an array of ingredients in your blackwater as circumstances allow. I've not noticed any difference since I started using alder cones as well as rooibos but I only began doing so last week when I found an alder tree. Purely based on how effective the rooibos on it's own was I'm pretty keen to get ahold of some other stems, bark, seed pods etc. to enrich the mix. I've boiled Savu pods from Cariniana legalis prior to adding them to my vivarium and they released more tannins even than alder cones.
Right now I have an empty water bottle that's filled 1/3 with alder cones and a rooibos teabag and it's turned the colour of black coffee. I wonder about the value of 'fresh' blackwater compared to something like this though. There's a couple of alder cones in the tank for shrimp to graze on but maybe it would be better to add sufficient alder cones and rooibos to the tank directly in order to achieve the desired tint/results? I can also see how the opposite might be true though.
Seems like there's quite a lot to learn.


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## dw1305 (3 Mar 2021)

Hi all, 


louis_last said:


> There's a couple of alder cones in the tank for shrimp to graze on but maybe it would be better to add sufficient alder cones and rooibos to the tank directly in order to achieve the desired tint/results?


That is what a lot of _Apistogramma_ keepers do. Have a look at this thread  <"_Apistogramma_ Forums: Current State of my ........">.

cheers Darrel


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## Wookii (3 Mar 2021)

louis_last said:


> I think in an ideal world you'd use as diverse an array of ingredients in your blackwater as circumstances allow. I've not noticed any difference since I started using alder cones as well as rooibos but I only began doing so last week when I found an alder tree. Purely based on how effective the rooibos on it's own was I'm pretty keen to get ahold of some other stems, bark, seed pods etc. to enrich the mix. I've boiled Savu pods from Cariniana legalis prior to adding them to my vivarium and they released more tannins even than alder cones.
> Right now I have an empty water bottle that's filled 1/3 with alder cones and a rooibos teabag and it's turned the colour of black coffee. I wonder about the value of 'fresh' blackwater compared to something like this though. There's a couple of alder cones in the tank for shrimp to graze on but maybe it would be better to add sufficient alder cones and rooibos to the tank directly in order to achieve the desired tint/results? I can also see how the opposite might be true though.
> Seems like there's quite a lot to learn.



Do you not just add your rooibos teabag direct to your tank then Louis? I have some botanicals (alder cones, catappa leaves, and bark) that I add to my tank, but I only have limited space to add them currently.

Something else that makes me wish I had a sump filter - I know I could add these to a canister filter, but I don't like to have to open those more than every 3 months!

EDIT: Any recommendation on brand that know works well?


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## dw1305 (3 Mar 2021)

Hi all, 


Wookii said:


> I assume a different species, unless they change form through the year?





Another Phil said:


> and naturalised/imports are often larger.


I think that one looks like _Alnus cordata._


X3NiTH said:


> I suppose a picture paints a thousand words


The_ Bucephalandra_ are lovely, but I really like your rounded (granite?) pebbles.

cheers Darrel


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## louis_last (3 Mar 2021)

Wookii said:


> Do you not just add your rooibos teabag direct to your tank then Louis? I have some botanicals (alder cones, catappa leaves, and bark) that I add to my tank, but I only have limited space to add them currently.
> 
> Something else that makes me wish I had a sump filter - I know I could add these to a canister filter, but I don't like to have to open those more than every 3 months!
> 
> EDIT: Any recommendation on brand that know works well?


Originally I started by literally just making a cup of strong rooibos, taking a few sips and then letting it cool down before dumping it into the tank about once a week. In a ten gallon tank this worked out to be about the right amount of tint for my taste and had a significant effect on the plants. 
Now I've got the bottle of home made extract I just add that with water changes to achieve the right tint. I'm using a pretty cheap 'Nicrew' LED from amazon that uses blue LEDS as well as white so the reddish tint from the rooibos/blackwater extract actually makes my plants look greener and less washed out, immediately and independently of any benefits to their growth, just because of the way we perceive colour.


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## timdjones10 (16 Mar 2021)

I make my own by boiling up a load of alder cones, letting it cool and adding however much required for the tint level you want, can keep it stored for months afterwards as well


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