# Will  domestic Apistogramma Macmasteri breed in white water or do they need clear water ?



## anewbie (5 May 2022)

My tank water is tds 120-130 and ph 7-7.1; will Apistogramma Macmasteri successfully breed in such water (eggs hatch) or do they require clear water (tds 30-60 ph mid 6) ?


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## Courtneybst (5 May 2022)

anewbie said:


> My tank water is tds 120-130 and ph 7-7.1; will Apistogramma Macmasteri successfully breed in such water (eggs hatch) or do they require clear water (tds 30-60 ph mid 6) ?


I don't think it matters too much.

I've successfully bred them in TDS 380+, with the pH ranging from 6.7-8. KH 14, GH through the roof. 

I'm sure you could breed them in either of those parameters you suggested.


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## MichaelJ (5 May 2022)

anewbie said:


> My tank water is tds 120-130 and ph 7-7.1; will Apistogramma Macmasteri successfully breed in such water (eggs hatch) or do they require clear water (tds 30-60 ph mid 6) ?


Not sure what _white water_ or _clear water_ means... but anyway, water parameters for breeding Apisto's all depends on the stock... some will require soft (<5 GH, <100 TDS) acidic water and some will breed in high TDS/GH/pH water... as @Courtneybst  mentions. It really depends on how well the stock is adapted. Personally, I would just prefer keeping and breeding them in low TDS (<100 ppm), soft (~5 GH) and slightly acidic water (~6.5 pH) because it mimics their natural habitats. 

Cheers,
Michael


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## anewbie (5 May 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> Not sure what _white water_ or _clear water_ means... but anyway, water parameters for breeding Apisto's all depends on the stock... some will require soft (<5 GH, <100 TDS) acidic water and some will breed in high TDS/GH/pH water... as @Courtneybst  mentions. It really depends on how well the stock is adapted. Personally, I would just prefer keeping and breeding them in low TDS (<100 ppm), soft (~5 GH) and slightly acidic water (~6.5 pH) because it mimics their natural habitats.
> 
> Cheers,
> Michael


Of course it dependso n the species and I named the species I was interested in. While soft acidic water would be nice in my current living condition i cannot add ro water and therefore cannot easily change the water parameters that is why i made the post. Many species will adapt to the water parameters i posted but i am explicitly interested in if they can successfully breed (egg hatch). Also there are species of apisto that actually prefer harder non-acidic water so for some species the parameters you describe would be unnatural relative to their native habitat.


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## brhau (5 May 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> Not sure what _white water_ or _clear water_ means...


He's asking about the conditions of the locality. Amazon rivers are typically classified as whitewater, clearwater, or blackwater, based on qualities including turbidity, conductivity, and pH. Macmasteri have been collected in whitewater and clearwater.

To answer the OP's question, It depends on whether the macs are wild caught or tank raised. If they're wild, I would ask for the collection location, and mimic the parameters there. If it isn't known, I'd recommend moderately acidic water with a TDS of around 50 as a starting point. On the other hand, If it's a domestic strain, the 120 - 130 TDS water is likely more than fine.


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## anewbie (5 May 2022)

brhau said:


> He's asking about the conditions of the locality. Amazon rivers are typically classified as whitewater, clearwater, or blackwater, based on qualities including turbidity, conductivity, and pH. Macmasteri have been collected in whitewater and clearwater.
> 
> To answer the OP's question, It depends on whether the macs are wild caught or tank raised. If they're wild, I would ask for the collection location, and mimic the parameters there. If it isn't known, I'd recommend moderately acidic water with a TDS of around 50 as a starting point. On the other hand, If it's a domestic strain, the 120 - 130 TDS water is likely more than fine.


Thanks - but my question is a bit more narrow - it isn't if the fish will do well in 130 tds (which should be fine for domestic mac as you indicated); but will the eggs hatch? I know a lot of species that will do fine in 130 tds (my nijjensi is a bit over 3 years old) but her eggs won't hatch unless the ph is around 6.6 and tds is around 50.


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## brhau (5 May 2022)

If they're domestic, I believe they will hatch in even harder water than that. I don't believe there are domestic strains of nijsseni. Tank-raised, yes. But not established strains that have gone through many generations of selective breeding the way macmasteri color forms have.

Hope this helps.


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## MichaelJ (5 May 2022)

brhau said:


> To answer the OP's question, It depends on whether the macs are wild caught or tank raised. If they're wild, I would ask for the collection location, and mimic the parameters there. If it isn't known, I'd recommend moderately acidic water with a TDS of around 50 as a starting point. On the other hand, If it's a domestic strain, the 120 - 130 TDS water is likely more than fine.


Makes sense. But I think @anewbie wanted to be more specific in terms of successfully breeding the Macmasteri...  There are for sure a very wide gamut of conditions you can breed Apistos under depending on  species, stock (tank breed vs. wild caught etc.). I am not an expert but have had many types of Apistos over the years - some would successfully breed while others wouldn't.  There is a great forum with tons of Apistogramma experts btw. Ingeniously named: Apistogramma.com  



brhau said:


> e's asking about the conditions of the locality. Amazon rivers are typically classified as whitewater, clearwater, or blackwater, based on qualities including turbidity, conductivity, and pH. Macmasteri have been collected in whitewater and clearwater.


Sure. It just wasn't totally clear to me what the context was given that this was referring to domestic Macmasteri (in the title) - I took it as tank bred.

Cheers,
Michael


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## anewbie (5 May 2022)

brhau said:


> If they're domestic, I believe they will hatch in even harder water than that. I don't believe there are domestic strains of nijsseni. Tank-raised, yes. But not established strains that have gone through many generations of selective breeding the way macmasteri color forms have.
> 
> Hope this helps.


Thank you. I was unaware the domestic strain varied that far from the original. I mean i was aware that certain traits are bred into the fish (i.e, looks) but did not realize it extended to breeding behavior.



And yes it was very helpful. Next year when i move i'll be able to get an ro unit and setup some low ph tanks.


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## anewbie (5 May 2022)

For the record i ended up buying pucallpaensis; these were wild caught but a white water fish. I realize they are small but they are also a lot more docile than many of the other species of apisto which is why i went with them when i saw them listed.


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## brhau (5 May 2022)

Very cool species, can't wait to see them!


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## Midwife (11 May 2022)

Courtneybst said:


> I don't think it matters too much.
> 
> I've successfully bred them in TDS 380+, with the pH ranging from 6.7-8. KH 14, GH through the roof.
> 
> I'm sure you could breed them in either of those parameters you suggested.


Wow.  Do they still look colourful  in those water parameters?


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## Courtneybst (11 May 2022)

Midwife said:


> Wow.  Do they still look colourful  in those water parameters?


Yep! There's a few pictures of them here and here.


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## anewbie (12 May 2022)

And this is what they look like:







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I actually purchased 2 pair - one in the 29 where the nijjensi (single female); and 1 in the 5 where they will probably eat the shrimp. I'm looking into upgrading the 5 to a 10 next week.  
-
Not sure what to do about the female nijjensi - she always been an issue - maybe i'll move her to the 40 - she is nearly 4 years old - her mate died about 2 1/2 years ago so i just left her alone - but she is kind of territorial.


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## brhau (12 May 2022)

anewbie said:


> Not sure what to do about the female nijjensi - she always been an issue - maybe i'll move her to the 40 - she is nearly 4 years old - her mate died about 2 1/2 years ago so i just left her alone - but she is kind of territorial.


Yeah, I would move her.


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## anewbie (26 May 2022)

I updated their aquairum from a 5 to a 10:
(old 5):




new 10:


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## anewbie (7 Jun 2022)

And now she has babies:


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## anewbie (10 Jun 2022)

She has turned out to be a most excellent mother. Every day she parades the babies around the tank to feed them; i'm presuming i don't need to help (provide food for them) since they seem to be surviving. Right now I think they are still too small for bbs but maybe next week I'll try to feed them some bbs. But of the cichlids i've owned she has been an amazing mother. Dad isn't much help but at least he isn't creating any problems.


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## JeffK (11 Jun 2022)

Most Apistogramma are polygamous, so for most species, males generally don't help besides guarding territory. 

Cichlids are full of character though and do some weird stuff now and then, like males chasing off the female and taking care of fry themselves, females stealing other female's fry, even species guarding other species' fry. The wonderful world of cichlids.


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## sparkyweasel (11 Jun 2022)

JeffK said:


> females stealing other female's fry,


I had a female _Nannacara anomala _who tried to herd _Daphnia_.


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## anewbie (11 Jun 2022)

JeffK said:


> Most Apistogramma are polygamous, so for most species, males generally don't help besides guarding territory.
> 
> Cichlids are full of character though and do some weird stuff now and then, like males chasing off the female and taking care of fry themselves, females stealing other female's fry, even species guarding other species' fry. The wonderful world of cichlids.


Yea i know - but at least she doesn't attack him as they do in some species of apisto.


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## JeffK (13 Jun 2022)

sparkyweasel said:


> I had a female _Nannacara anomala _who tried to herd _Daphnia_.


Haha! Perhaps they're not the brightest. 😅


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## anewbie (13 Jun 2022)

JeffK said:


> Haha! Perhaps they're not the brightest. 😅


Maybe she is super bright and planning ahead by collecting food for future harvest


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