# pH profile during start-up



## pepedopolous (20 Aug 2014)

Hi there,

I'd just like some advice on my CO2 injection.

I set up a 40cm cube aquarium 6 days ago and I'm doing 50% water changes every morning at about 9:00.

CO2 = 9:00 - 20:00 (I guess I could finish earlier???)
Light = 12:00 - 17:00

I'm not sure if I'm injecting enough CO2 because I'm using Amazonia which is said to reduce pH to about pH6. However, adding tap water increases the pH.

pH of water straight out of the tap = 7.37

Aquarium water pH at 9:00, before water change = 5.68

After water change = 6.17

pH at 17:00 = 5.40

I have a drop checker which is always lime green or yellow later in the day. It's difficult to make judgements based on the plant health because unfortunately, many of them were in poor health (melting) when I received them. I would say they are hanging on although the crypts are melting of course, even though they were in perfect health!

Thanks,

P


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## Vazkez (20 Aug 2014)

Hi there 

hard to say without knowing your KH. But I think you should have bigger drop of PH definetly.

Few points: 
yes you can switch off your CO2 one hour before lights go off.
It's hard as you mixing two water, however I think your water is not so hard as main.
Is the PH stable or it is dropping every hour few 0.1
Basically you should build enough CO2 over the two hours before lights goes on and then keep it stable over the full light period with minimum change.
How much is that hard to say without KH but I say you need more.

Vazz


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## dw1305 (20 Aug 2014)

Hi all,
With the usual disclaimer that I am not now, nor have I ever been, or are ever likely to be a CO2 user, but 





pepedopolous said:


> I have a drop checker which is always lime green or yellow later in the day


 You can ignore the pH drop, the drop checker has 4dKH "water" in it, and when it is yellow you definitely have enough/too much CO2. 





pepedopolous said:


> CO2 = 9:00 - 20:00 (I guess I could finish earlier???)
> Light = 12:00 - 17:00


 You need to have the CO2 go off with/before the lights do, once the lights are off the extra CO2 is of no use to your plants, and could kill your livestock.

cheers Darrel


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## pepedopolous (20 Aug 2014)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> With the usual disclaimer that I am not now, nor have I ever been, or are ever likely to be a CO2 user, but  You can ignore the pH drop, the drop checker has 4dKH "water" in it, and when it is yellow you definitely have enough/too much CO2.  You need to have the CO2 go off with/before the lights do, once the lights are off the extra CO2 is of no use to your plants, and could kill your livestock.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Thanks for the reply, I don't have any livestock.


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## Vazkez (20 Aug 2014)

pepedopolous said:


> Thanks for the reply, I don't have any livestock.



As Darrel said you do not need to have CO2 on out of light period. No matter if you have life stock or not you basically wasting your CO2 as plants without light have no benefit from it.


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## dw1305 (20 Aug 2014)

Hi all,





pepedopolous said:


> Thanks for the reply, I don't have any livestock.


 OK. no need to worry about the amount of CO2 in water. 

cheers Darrel


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## pepedopolous (20 Aug 2014)

Vazkez said:


> As Darrel said you do not need to have CO2 on out of light period. No matter if you have life stock or not you basically wasting your CO2 as plants without light have no benefit from it.


Thanks, I think I'll stop it before the lights go off then. 

My reason for the extra time was to keep the level up so that even though much is lost overnight, it would be quicker to get to the correct level once the CO2 comes on again.

However, I think this is a moot point as I can't do a real profile until I can go a few days without a water change.

P


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## Vazkez (20 Aug 2014)

You changing your water parameters with the waterchange anyway so there no point to keep it up.
Also you have the two hours before lights go on to bring the CO2 on good level.
As you said I will be not worried too much before you stop to do so much waterchange.
Also is much easier for you to just up the CO2 if you find out that you do not have enough as you do not have to be worried about fish


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## ceg4048 (20 Aug 2014)

pepedopolous said:


> I'm not sure if I'm injecting enough CO2 because I'm using Amazonia which is said to reduce pH to about pH6. However, adding tap water increases the pH.


This can be ignored.



pepedopolous said:


> I set up a 40cm cube aquarium 6 days ago and I'm doing 50% water changes every morning at about 9:00.


Stop doing daily water changes if you want to investigate your injection technique. First of all it's over the top and unnecessary, and, secondly it will disrupt your pH measurements, which is what you need to do in order to answer your question.



pepedopolous said:


> CO2 = 9:00 - 20:00 (I guess I could finish earlier???)


Yes, as mentioned you are wasting gas, will endanger your fish when you do get fish, so you need to at least simulate the technique and timing so that you have a better clue how the tank responds when you will have fish. If you want to add more CO2 then do so in the beginning prior to lights on and use the injection rate before and during the photoperiod to modulate the gas.
If your photoperiod is 1200 to 1700 then your baseline gas timing should be something like 1000 to 1600. Then take pH measurements at 30 minute intervals from 1000 to 1700. Make adjustments from there based on your KH. If the KH is less than 6 then you should get a 1-2 pH unit drop, if KH is 7 to about 11 then look for a 1 unit drop. These are just rough numbers to start with.




pepedopolous said:


> although the crypts are melting of course,


Why is this considered an "of course"? Crypts melting = poor CO2. So you have a lot of work to do. Forget about daily water change and get on with it man. Save your plants from extinction!

Cheers,


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## pepedopolous (20 Aug 2014)

Thanks for your reply Ceg. 

I thought that daily water changes are necessary when starting a planted aquarium. I've no intention of getting any fish until I nail the CO2, however long that takes.

I know you said in other threads that plants can get used to high levels of CO2, adapting to become less adept at capturing it. Bearing in mind that I really just want to grow the plants well, I'm not fussed about wasting CO2. If I inject CO2 24/7 and have a yellow drop checker 24/7, is it possible that I wont have enough CO2 for the plants? PAR is 30-40 and I also have floating plants (_Azolla_).

About the crypts- I may have damaged some of the stems when some uprooted and I replanted them in a hurry ;-/

Thanks again,

P


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## ceg4048 (20 Aug 2014)

Pepe,
              Daily water changes are not necessary. Of course they never hurt, and the idea of frequent water changes at tank startup is all about keeping the tank free of organic waste that becomes excessive after the plants are flooded. It also gives them a gulp of air while they are trying to play scuba diver. However, a 2X-3x per week for the first month or two works fine and is less stressful, especially for those who have large tanks.

More importantly, from your perspective is that you have to get the CO2 right. The reason you want really high CO2 after flooding the tank is that typically, the plants are grown emmersed and so their structure is adapted to be in air. Terrestrial leaves are not very good when flooded. They are normally tough and leathery and they are designed to resist water - NOT to soak it up. That's why the plants transition to submersed  water absorbing tissues and why the emmersed form of a plant looks so much different .

So, in order to get even a nominal amount of CO2 through a leaf that is not well adapted to being flooded, we normally need much more CO2 injection than we will as the leaves transition. That's why there is so much die off when folks flood their tank. Even the people who prepare the tank via DSM are surprised by the amount of die off, when really it should be no surprise. Raising the injection rate to manic levels will help prevent the plant from disintegrating.

As the plants transition and get healthier you can then dial back the injection rate to sane levels.

I don't think 24/7 injection is as important as getting very high levels at lights on. Bubble counters are not even relevant at this time. If you use a torrid injection rate 24/7 all that means is that you'll run out sooner - and that is a hassle. It doesn't really gain you anything. Use the timer with a full open throttle needle valve and take the measurement so that you get to understand the scheme and the behavior of the gas. That's a much more valuable exercise than 24/7 injection.

Cheers,


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## pepedopolous (20 Aug 2014)

Cheers ceg, that makes perfect sense. I'm onto it!


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## pepedopolous (21 Aug 2014)

New day, no water change. I've propped my pH meter on the spraybar and left it switched on.

I tested the KH using a JBL test kit (titration). According to that the KH is 2.

CO2 on 8:30, lights on at 11:00

Time ----- pH
08:30 --- 5.80 CO2 ON
09:00 --- 5.50
09:30 --- 5.17
10:00 --- 5.10
10:30 --- 5.07
11:00 --- 5.04
11:30 --- 5.04 (increased BPS)
12:00 --- 5.04 (increased BPS again!) Lights ON
12:30 --- 5.04
13:00 --- 5.02
13:30 --- 5.00

So I've increased the CO2 several times now, the BPS has never been low enough to count. Somehow, despite the low KH, I can't get the pH to drop 1 point in over 4 hours! The drop checker is strong yellow.

A picture to show the sorry state of affairs and flow distribution. Tank is 60l, filter is JBL 700 lph.


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## Marcel G (21 Aug 2014)

I think that with such a low pH you never get one whole point down. Water acidification using CO2 has its limits. I guess you are not allowed to get under pH 5 (or so). Your pH is extremely low to start with! If you use hard water for couple of weeks, your substrate will saturate much earlier, and your pH drops won't be so dramatic.


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## pepedopolous (21 Aug 2014)

Thanks for your reply. Right now the pH is 4.92 so it's got a bit below 5. 

I'm not sure what you mean. What will the substrate saturate with?


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## James Flexton (21 Aug 2014)

Not to hijack but what is advised to use for the PH test. I thought test kits were the devil incarnate!
Although obviously it is key to know what the PH is. I have just set up a new tank and will need to get a grip on the PH behaviour but at present have no way of testing it.
whats the cheapest way of checking (whilst giving useful readings in terms of accuracy) ?


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## ceg4048 (21 Aug 2014)

It's your low KH that makes it difficult to measure the pH using a probe.
Darrel has an excellent explanation in his post=> http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/seneye.31700/#post-363560

There are two options:

1) add Potassium Carbonate or Sodium Carbonate (baking soda) or coral sand or any chalk based hardscape to raise the KH of the tank to around 4-6. This will improve the reliability of the probe's readings.

2) use a reagent based KH test kit.

Cheers,


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## pepedopolous (21 Aug 2014)

OK, thanks. There's no point having a pH meter if it can't do its job.

So until I can raise the KH, I can only use the drop checker to indicate the CO2 levels?

I've moved the drop checker just above the substrate at the front and it still is yellow.


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## ceg4048 (21 Aug 2014)

No...No...No...No....

Use the REAGENT from the dropchecker. The DC cannot help you in this exercise.

Cheers,


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## pepedopolous (21 Aug 2014)

Yeah, I know the DC can't help with a pH profile. I just mean that if I can't get a valid pH profile at the moment, the DC is all I've got to tell me that the CO2 _might_ be sufficient (or maybe not...)


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## ceg4048 (21 Aug 2014)

Again, the DC is absolutely useless for this type of investigation, however, as I mentioned, if you have a DC, then presumably you also have the DC reagent which is just a pH test kit. That satisfies option 2 above.


Cheers,


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## pepedopolous (21 Aug 2014)

Ceg, I have ready-made drop-checker solution. http://www.aquasabi.de/co2/co2-dauertests/aqua-rebell-co2-check-250-ml

If I add some to a sample of aquarium water right now it goes yellow. I'm guessing that if that happens at the time before the aquarium lights go on my CO2 is OK?


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## ceg4048 (21 Aug 2014)

Well, you\ll be diluting the tank water with water that has only atmospheric CO2 dissolved in it which will tend to be an underestimate, by how much I have no idea. Yellow really doesn't mean too much with this, thinking on it, because pH 6.0 is the lower limit of Bromothymol Blue's ability to measure pH. So it will go yellow at 6.0 but it cannot tell the difference between 6.0 and 5.0 and with 2 KH water you probably need to be closer to 5.0 than to 6.0.

You'll need to raise the KH of your water or go insane thinking about this stuff....surely you must have Arm & Hammer baking soda in the kitchen cabinet. If not, I'm sure it's on sale at Tesco....

Cheers,


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## pepedopolous (21 Aug 2014)

I'm off to get some.

It says in the link below to use 1/2 teaspoon per 100l 
http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin-chem.html#altering


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## ceg4048 (21 Aug 2014)

Yeah, that's fine. Use your KH test kit to verify the KH.
In the long term it's better to use coral sand in the filter which will be high in Calcium Carbonate and will dissolve slowly.

The baking soda is a quick fix, but sodium is not really a nice thing for plants long term. Go with that for now, but think about other options such as oyster shell coral sand or Potassium Carbonate.

Add it slowly, over a few hours....

Cheers,


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## pepedopolous (21 Aug 2014)

The only baking soda I could find at short notice (Dr Oetker!) also contains 22% corn starch and a mix of both Sodium Bicarbonate and Monosodium phosphate.

I think I'll wait until I can find some pure stuff or just buy some aquarium re-mineralisation salts like JBL Aquadur.


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## pepedopolous (24 Aug 2014)

Here is the profile for today with increased KH so hopefully the pH meter readings are valid.

KH = 4

Time ----- pH
09:00 --- 6.43 CO2 ON
09:30 --- 6.10
10:00 --- 5.93
10:30 --- 5.83
11:00 --- 5.78 increased CO2
11:30 --- 5.66
12:00 --- 5.58 Lights ON
12:30 --- 5.52
13:00 --- 5.48
13:30 --- 5.43
14:00 --- 5.44
14:30 --- 5.45
15:00 --- 5.45
15:30 --- 5.45
16:00 --- 5.45 CO2 OFF
16:30 ---
17:00 --- Lights OFF
17:30 ---
18:00 --- 5.73

So the pH drop is still too small and too slow. Tomorrow I'll crank up the CO2 yet again, although I won't have time to do another profile for some time.

Many of the plants have melted so much that I doubt they are salvageable. The only ones growing are the mini Java fern and _Marsilea crenata _(the old leaves have melted but have been replaced with new stems).

I think I might have to go back to using an in-line atomiser or a maybe a bazooka type atomiser for finer bubbles.

I'm using this diffuser and I really like it but the bubbles are perhaps too big (I've only used in-line atomisers before). It seems that many bubbles escape to the surface even though the diffuser is right next to the filter intake.

I have a feeling that this tank is using more CO2 than my other one which is twice the volume.

P


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## pepedopolous (25 Aug 2014)

Doesn't the 1-2 unit pH drop for an ideal pH profile assume that all CO2 is degassed overnight?

I angled the spraybar upward last night to create more surface disturbance. When I got up at 7:00 the pH was 6.90 rather than the 6.43 of the previous morning.

I put the spraybar back to the normal position and by 17:30 when I got home, the pH was the same as the equivalent time yesterday: 5.6.

Maybe there is a smidgen of hope that I have got sufficient CO2 and this meltfest may be averted?!

P


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## ceg4048 (25 Aug 2014)

pepedopolous said:


> Doesn't the 1-2 unit pH drop for an ideal pH profile assume that all CO2 is degassed overnight?


No, all of that is taken into account. It's just a rule of thumb.



pepedopolous said:


> I angled the spraybar upward last night to create more surface disturbance.


Don't do that.



pepedopolous said:


> When I got up at 7:00 the pH was 6.90 rather than the 6.43 of the previous morning.


That's why.



pepedopolous said:


> I put the spraybar back to the normal position and by 17:30 when I got home, the pH was the same as the equivalent time yesterday: 5.6.
> Maybe there is a smidgen of hope that I have got sufficient CO2 and this meltfest may be averted?!


Good. Just observe and make injection adjustment if you continue to see melting. You can also supplement with liquid carbon (assuming you don't have any sensitive plants).

Cheers,


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## pepedopolous (25 Aug 2014)

Thanks Ceg. It's damn disheartening to see the plants melt away but I don't dare buy more plants for fear of wasting money. I think the _Hemianthus glomeratus_ is 90% gone and the Crypts too. The _Marsilea_ is fine and the 'Monte Carlo' is hanging on. I have tonnes of 'Monte Carlo' in my other tank which I could transplant over but I feel like that's cheating!


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## ceg4048 (25 Aug 2014)

NO. Solving the riddle of your tank is never cheating. Saving money by using plants you have in abundance  is NEVER cheating.

Do not think like this. That is what they teach you in The Matrix to turn Human Beings into a Cash Cows.

Cheers,


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## John P Coates (25 Aug 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> Use your KH test kit to verify the KH.


So we can use hobby-grade test kits to measure KH?

JPC


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## Sacha (25 Aug 2014)

The Salifert one is very good.


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## John P Coates (25 Aug 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> That is what they teach you in The Matrix to turn Human Beings into a Cash Cows.


I guess I should watch this film. Will it help me grow healthier aquatic plants?

JPC[DOUBLEPOST=1409004543][/DOUBLEPOST]





Sacha said:


> The Salifert one is very good.


Hi Sacha,

What makes the Salifert kit particularly good? Accuracy, ease of use, value for money?

JPC


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## ceg4048 (26 Aug 2014)

John P Coates said:


> So we can use hobby-grade test kits to measure KH?


No. KH test kits do not actually measure KH. They measure alkalinity. For the purpose of this exercise however, the number that we get gives us an idea of what the pH drop should be (low, medium, high).

So, again, to clarify, for the 1,000,000th time, if you use hobby grade test kits to measure important things like Nitrogen, Phosphorous and Ferrous/Ferric compounds you will always have trouble because they are not capable of accurate or consistent measurements. DO NOT use test kits to tell you how much nutrition to add to the water column.

The test kits that measure innocuous things like pH/KH/GH are less ridiculous, can be outsmarted when necessary, but can still cause tremendous trouble if you attribute more importance to those parameters than you should, and if you do not understand the fundamental properties of those things being measured.

Have you paid attention to the difficulties experienced by the OP in this thread or have you simply been rooting for the test kit? How much trouble has he had just trying to outsmart his pH test kit and probes?  Have you thought about how elaborate and absurd are his necessary procedures just to ensure useable pH data while all the time his plants are disintegrating? You think the OP is happy right now? You consider this to be a validation of test kit heroism? Sorry, but I consider it a national disgrace.

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what numbers his test kits report, because ONLY the survival or demise of his plants will indicate success or failure. The test kits can only ever verify the results observed in the tank. They can never determine or predict the results.

Test kit lovers blindly trust the numbers reported and constantly experience failure. Test kit haters find alternate means of working around the kit's inherent weaknesses.




Sacha said:


> The Salifert one is very good.


Dream on Copper Top.....mooo....

Cheers,


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## flygja (26 Aug 2014)

Am I right to assume that the crushed coral recommended is only for the purpose of increasing the KH so that pH measurements are faster and more accurate? Should it be removed once the pH profile is taken? Or just leave in the filter long term?


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## John P Coates (26 Aug 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> Have you paid attention to the difficulties experienced by the OP in this thread...


Mmmm. Reminds me of my school days!


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## Sacha (26 Aug 2014)

Condescending and patronising comments aside, 

The Salifert test is a titration test kit, meaning it provides good resolution to an accuracy of 0.2. 

As Clive mentioned, it measures alkalinity and then uses an algorithm to arrive at a "KH". The KH reading isnt 100% reliable. But it is the very best you can hope for from a hobby- grade test kit.


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## John P Coates (26 Aug 2014)

Sacha said:


> Condescending and patronising comments aside,
> 
> The Salifert test is a titration test kit, meaning it provides good resolution to an accuracy of 0.2.
> 
> As Clive mentioned, it measures alkalinity and then uses an algorithm to arrive at a "KH". The KH reading isnt 100% reliable. But it is the very best you can hope for from a hobby- grade test kit.


Hi Sacha,

I also understand that Red Sea make a good alkalinity test kit. Have you ever tried this one? I noticed that it is available from here:

http://www.marineaquatics.co.uk/shop/red-sea-kh/alkalintiy-pro-test-kit.html

There is a video review of Red Sea along with Salifert and Hanna KH testers on the net. If I find the link, I'll add it here.

JPC


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## Sacha (26 Aug 2014)

I've never used that one. It looks pretty similar to the Salifert though.


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## John P Coates (26 Aug 2014)

Sacha,

Hope this link works.



JPC


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## Sacha (26 Aug 2014)

Very interesting video. That Red Sea test kit does look very nice!


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## pepedopolous (26 Aug 2014)

FYI I use the JBL KH test which is also using dropwise titration. No idea how it compares to other brands.


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## John P Coates (28 Aug 2014)

Hi Folks,

It turns out that the Red Sea alkalinity test kit is NOT suitable for freshwater use. Despite being called a KH/alkalinity test kit, I received an email this morning from Red Sea saying that the result it produces is actually a reading of KH + GH. Very misleading.

JPC


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## pepedopolous (30 Aug 2014)

I seem to be stuck between a rock and hard place with this aquarium.

On the one hand, the crypts seem to be recovering with a few new leaves appearing. On the other hand even some of the Java Fern is melting now and some of the new _Marsilea_ growth as well.

If I increase the working pressure and open the needle valve fully, I can _maybe_ get a drop of about 1 pH unit in a few hours. The problem is so much CO2 is wasted as the bubbles are quite big and leave the diffuser with such force that they break the surface. 

A lot of bubbles go in the filter which is what I wanted. However, the filter soon starts to become really noisy and burp. CO2 bubbles also collect under the spray bar... However, if I reduce the working pressure/bubble count, the pH won't reduce enough.

I'm gonna try another pH profile tomorrow and I've ordered a bazooka diffuser which might help things.

The only positive is that I've got no algae yet.... despite the sick plants and ammonia there must be in there.

P


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## John P Coates (30 Aug 2014)

pepedopolous said:


> I'm gonna try another pH profile tomorrow and I've ordered a bazooka diffuser which might help things.P


Hi P,

My experience with the CO2Art Bazooka diffuser is very positive. The bubbles it produces are so small that it looks like a mist. It even bears some resemblance to smoke rising from it. I would estimate the bubbles to be 0.1mm diameter. I find that, at this size, they get blown around the tank and only a small proportion make it to the surface. Mine is the 55mm version and the water column is 110 litres. My regulator operating pressure is set to 2.0 bar.

JPC


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## pepedopolous (30 Aug 2014)

Thanks for this info. I'm gonna get one ASAP!


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## pepedopolous (30 Sep 2014)

Hi again.

My current pH profile (I've checked this several weekends in a row).
KH = 5, Drop checker = always yellow
I've also reduced the light intensity by 50% and given the filter a good clean.

09:00---6.92 (CO2 ON)
10:00---5.88
11:00---5.72
12:00---5.65 (Lights ON)
13:00---5.65
14:00---5.65
15:00---5.65
16:00---5.65 (CO2 OFF)
17:00---5.80
18:00---6.04 (Lights OFF)
19:00---6.29
20:00---6.42
21:00---6.51
22:00---6.60
23:00---6.73
00:00---6.80

Plants which have melted during the past month: -
Mini Java fern
_Eleocharis montevideo
Limnobium spongia _(this can't be CO2 related as it's a floating plant!)
_Hemianthus glomeratus _(it seems this genus plus _Micranthemum_ are allergic to this tank!)

Plants which I have added (and have survived): -
Cuttings of _Bacopa caroliniana _from my other aquarium
_Ludwigia repens _(bought submersed)

The _Rotala macrandra _Short Narrow Leaf is also starting to come back from the dead.

This aquarium is just about killing any enjoyment I have from this hobby.  I have one other somewhat successful aquarium which I am now too afraid to re-scape and spend any more money on.

P


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