# Sand/stone only hardscapes - no soil



## Andrew Butler (20 Nov 2019)

I'm on a journey of simplifying things for myself and would like to keep a planted aquarium with fish but find a balance where the hardscape can do most of the talking and just adding in a few slow growers is my aim. I'd prefer for it to be sand and stone only and as it happens I really like the look when I have seen it done right, however I've also seen some very bad attempts at it. I'm not of a naturally artistic mind which is quite a stumbling point and neither does Aquascaping come naturally to me so without pointing me in the direction of the more obvious ones is anyone able to offer any suggestion, with instruction/demonstration even better!

I've a good stack of Frodo stone but it's mainly large pieces which if I were just to smash would break the wrong way if you understand what I mean? - they are tall and if I were to smash them I would end up with narrow/tall pieces instead of wider/shorter pieces which is what I would want.

I've an aquarium 900 x 500 x 450mm (LxWxH) which will be viewed from the front/left and have a built in filtration section added on the right end with the weir/overflow at the front and the return at the back of this section.

Just a few photos to give you an idea of what I have and comparison in a mock tank with above measurements.


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## alto (21 Nov 2019)

I don’t know how often you’ve watched this video (or if you were able to watch the livestream) 
(it’s a shame that all 6 scape videos were not made available (vlog style), I believe George had the completed scapes on his channel for voting)



I think it’s a good challenge to set for yourself - scape those rocks every few days 
Maybe set a goal of a complete new scape every week, with some adjustments during the between days 

For the sort of stone/sand scape you’ve described, you need a good assortment of smashed stone as well (as seen in the video) to give the stone formation a more natural appearance (within the confines of the aquarium)

(obviously) Oliver Knott, Adam Paszczela, Filipe Oliveira, Balbi Vaquero


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## alto (21 Nov 2019)

Andrew Butler said:


> would like to keep a planted aquarium with fish but find a balance where the hardscape can do most of the talking and just adding in a few slow growers


Unfortunately while ADG does many aquariums in this style, they are sparse on details (& media presentations)

I suspect limited nutrients, soft water method will assist in minimal algae (even with all other components being equal)


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## Andrew Butler (21 Nov 2019)

alto said:


> I don’t know how often you’ve watched this video (or if you were able to watch the livestream)
> (it’s a shame that all 6 scape videos were not made available (vlog style), I believe George had the completed scapes on his channel for voting)


I only ever saw this one but have seen it before, Adam is probably the man who I look to the most for this kind of thing but he's a man without much of his own video available. ADA Polska has some great photos around but not too much broken down.


alto said:


> For the sort of stone/sand scape you’ve described, you need a good assortment of smashed stone as well


It's all ready to go. 


alto said:


> I think it’s a good challenge to set for yourself - scape those rocks every few days
> Maybe set a goal of a complete new scape every week, with some adjustments during the between days


I don't think I could commit to this unfortunately and the British weather is turning so my mock tank outside is becoming a bit chilly.


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## alto (21 Nov 2019)

I assumed your mock tank had moved inside for the winter (though I suppose that doesn’t begin for another month )

Filipe Oliveira suggests just setting up the hardscape in your tank and playing with it there (being careful of scratches) - I prefer this as lighting can make the scape look very different (as does filling with water), but in terms of just getting to know your specific stones and how they might interact, an open table like in the video is much easier, especially with larger stones (there are several video shorts of Adam’s indoor stone scaping table - he mentions this during the TAOTPA live scaping event ... I can imagine how many hours he spent “learning the stones” )

Every time I watch the video, I notice different aspects of the stones and how they fit/contrast - and that is what makes the alternate scapes so interesting


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## Andrew Butler (21 Nov 2019)

alto said:


> I assumed your mock tank had moved inside for the winter


Problem is it's now wet on the outside so it's either build another or get cold. I had thought about making a 3 sided one; bottom, back and right so I'm still able to see all of my viewing angle


alto said:


> Filipe Oliveira suggests just setting up the hardscape in your tank and playing with it there (being careful of scratches)


This is a very real threat in my opinion and some are really heavy old stones to keep getting in and out although I'm sure final tweaks would be made in the aquarium.


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## Tim Harrison (21 Nov 2019)

Andrew Butler said:


> I'd prefer for it to be sand and stone only


So essentially you're going for a Iwagumi look.


Andrew Butler said:


> I've a good stack of Frodo stone


The more stone you have the easier it is to arrive at a scape you like. I think you have some very nice pieces that you should be able to create something pretty awesome with. But I think Adam has the edge with regards stone choice 


Andrew Butler said:


> if I were just to smash would break the wrong way if you understand what I mean?


Don't smash it unless you're very sure what you need. They semi-conchoidal fracture to reveal uninspiring surfaces. For instance, I will break mine for a particular corner that will fill a gap etc but it can pretty much render the rest of the stone useless. However, alto is also right adding broken stone can make the scape look more natural as it represents the natural processes of weathering and erosion and scree formation etc, so it's worth sacrificing some for that. That said a lot of the smaller stuff Adam is adding will be totally lost when the plants start to grow. 


Andrew Butler said:


> I'm on a journey of simplifying things for myself


With that in mind I think you've the right idea. I always challenge myself to use the minimum hardscape to give the impression of naturalness, to distil the essence of nature or what I'm trying to create down to the bare minimum. Plants will do the rest even in a minimally planted Iwagumi style scape. I find that if I get the hardscape right the rest, or the planting, falls in to place quite easily.


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## Andrew Butler (21 Nov 2019)

Tim Harrison said:


> So essentially you're going for a Iwagumi look.


This is a stumbling point as I see it as I don't intend it to conform with any of the rules that Iwagumi places on you so I guess it could be leaning more towards diorama?


Tim Harrison said:


> Don't smash it unless you're very sure what you need. They semi-conchoidal fracture to reveal uninspiring surfaces. For instance, I will break mine for a particular corner that will fill a gap etc but it can pretty much render the rest of the stone useless. However, alto is also right adding broken stone can make the scape look more natural as it represents the natural processes of weathering and erosion and scree formation etc, so it's worth sacrificing some for that. That said a lot of the smaller stuff Adam is adding will be totally lost when the plants start to grow.


I know if I've any cutting of stone the large part would include cutting instead of smashing then giving it a natural looking edge if it does not follow one - this is something I think I can do easily enough, arranging them on the other hand is a different matter!


Tim Harrison said:


> With that in mind I think you've the right idea. I always challenge myself to use the minimum hardscape to give the impression of naturalness, to distil the essence of nature or what I'm trying to create down to the bare minimum. Plants will do the rest even in a minimally planted Iwagumi style scape. I find that if I get the hardscape right the rest, or the planting, falls in to place quite easily.


I'm happy to use a larger amount of hardscape if I can make it look good enough. I think Adam and maybe Aquaman on some projects have showed some good examples although quite how they execute them is quite a mystery. The hardscape is what I know I will struggle with but any guidance here or pointers towards some is most welcome.


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## Andrew Butler (21 Nov 2019)

If it makes any difference I know I can stabilise the larger stones at the base using some products used in reefing which follow a similar colour or even stick stones together providing the shape carries through enough to disguise the joint.


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## Tim Harrison (21 Nov 2019)

Andrew Butler said:


> This is a stumbling point as I see it as I don't intend it to conform with any of the rules that Iwagumi places on you so I guess it could be leaning more towards diorama?


Rules are meant to be broken  I guess these days Iwagumi can just as well mean any rock dominated scape, rather than in the purist sense of Japanese Zen or stone gardens...

Not one of mine but from Tobias' Aquasabi website.







Andrew Butler said:


> I think Adam and maybe Aquaman on some projects have showed some good examples although quite how they execute them is quite a mystery.


I think if you observe the way they use the stone, they pretty much let it do the work. That is once you start to work with stone you'll find, or you may have already found, that it will slot together naturally in one or two ways, almost like it naturally formed that way before it was broken up for use in your aquarium. I usually allow myself to be guided by that; the stone always comes up with far better scapes than I could alone.

I guess stone masons and dry wallers use a very similar principle. Essentially working with the material as much as possible. In my case it's in the blood, I come from a long line of stone masons  And I guess it's one of the main reasons, at least for me, why having a lot of stone to choose from makes scaping a lot easier.

For instance, I let the rock do the work in this hardscape; none were broken or cut...





I also tend to choose stone that is multifaceted, i.e. has more than one or two interesting sides, so it works in several ways, giving me more options, and again making the creative process easier.



Andrew Butler said:


> If it makes any difference I know I can stabilise the larger stones at the base using some products used in reefing which follow a similar colour or even stick stones together providing the shape carries through enough to disguise the joint.


I know Amano placed the stones in first and then the substrate, but that's just one way of working. Another, as I am sure you're aware, is to place the substrate in first and then position the rocks in that. In your case, since you're using sand alone, I think it'd perhaps be the best approach. Its an easy way of providing initial stability which in turn gives you far more options with regards stone placement and height etc. But for it to work you really need to use a lot of sand. Using this technique also makes it easy to use substrate to "hide" joints and make the scape look more natural. Plants can be used to similar effect as well.

I used that techniques in this scape. It's also an example of how I try to use minimum hardscape to achieve a natural effect and how I try to let the stones guide me with regards placement. Sorry for using my own video, fast forward to about 1 min.



Nigel's Mountain scape journal also has some good tips, especially for bonding rocks with cigarette filters and superglue etc.



But the best advice I can give you is, above all else have fun...


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## Andrew Butler (21 Nov 2019)

Tim Harrison said:


> Rules are meant to be broken  I guess these days Iwagumi can just as well mean any rock dominated scape, rather than in the purist sense of Japanese Zen or stone gardens...


I'm all for breaking rules but last time I put some stones together I had lectures about not following rules so didn't want to call this an iwagumi. 


Tim Harrison said:


> I let the rock do the work in this hardscape; none were broken or cut.


A lot of the rocks are just too thick but I think by cutting them to thin them out they'd be of more use to me.
I need to see if I can get them to work in a different way to what I had thought but they're simply quite large in the main.
I'd like to keep sand minimal too


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## Andrew Butler (12 May 2020)

@alto @Tim Harrison we are almost 6 months since the last posting from me and I've made zero progress!
It does hopefully give me the opportunity to once again get the stone back outside and have a play around - I'm in no rush and it will be done when it's done.
I want to make a few changes to the filtration anyway; the tank is running with the contents from the other tanks whilst other changes are being made with this more simple, easier to maintain aquarium household.

I've been pondering over sand/stone alone; whether this is a good direction or maybe realistic one in terms of plant choice and a balanced system also comes to mind, do either of you have opinion? (or anyone else)


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## Tim Harrison (12 May 2020)

No plants?

I guess it'd be fine, just a question of fish load and filter capacity to keep the system balanced. 
An alternative would be to just use easy plants and try and emulate Andy's style here. His blog is a great source of info, I think he even has a how to section.


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## Jayefc1 (12 May 2020)

Hi @Andrew Butler I run a sand and stone only scape and the maintenance is much less than with soil the plant choice is a little less but you can still have some awesome results 

in tems of maintenance I brush the rocks and hover the sand change water clean glass once a month excuse the pic the tripartita has over grown since last maintained 3 weeks ago


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## Andrew Butler (12 May 2020)

Tim Harrison said:


> No plants?


Ah - I'd like to add some of those, oh and some fish with friends so that's a given from now on!

Just trying to think cosmetic sand with stone and making that work; maybe a little ambitious or just not look right. wood or adding a soil section maybe.
A photo Adam Paszczela shared with me last year I quite like the overall feel of but I guess plants would change it all in a big way


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## Andrew Butler (12 May 2020)

Jayefc1 said:


> I run a sand and stone only scape and the maintenance is much less than with soil the plant choice is a little less but you can still have some awesome results


Thanks for that @Jayefc1 - very helpful. did you start the system from scratch or add in some mature media?
How do you find the sand for blowing around and what is it?


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## Tim Harrison (12 May 2020)

I guess plants do change it, but you can still plant to enhance the rock hardscape. This one of Andy's mainly uses moss, anubias and buces and a few crypts to pretty stunning effect. It's what I was talking about before.


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## Ady34 (12 May 2020)

I believe it is fully achievable, with or without plants, just sand and stone as a framework can work. In my opinion it then becomes more about lighting the less plant mass you have. 
My current tank is just sand stone (and wood) with epiphyte plants, no soil. You will be looking at a longer term, lower maintenance system and I believe lighting is the key. Use less, choose appropriate plants which grow slow and don’t require a lot of light, you can plant densely from the start to achieve a mature look or plant more sparsely. If using less plant mass, maintenance will be greater in the form of water changes as the system matures so I’d buy double the amount of plants you think you will need to create fullness.
If you opt for no plants and hardscape only then lighting is even more important. The less the better. I have done hardscape only without algae and used very limited lighting. You can create a beautiful display of fish and hardscape without intense light. You will though have to consider circulation and potential detritus traps within hardscape so can become complicated, especially with heavy rock dominated scapes which cover substrate and create dead spots. Wood is an easier choice for no plants imo as substrate contact points can remain minimal. ADG do this very well but like you say there aren’t a huge amount of detailed installation guides. One thing you will also notice is that they don’t tend to use huge amounts of rock in non planted tanks....this will likely be due to ease of maintenance and the reasons stated above. Unless hard water cichlids are the fish, then lots of rock alone is more tricky and involved  to maintain long term.
With either option I would try to build from the base of the tank directly. This way there are no dead areas in substrate under the rocks. You can also judge the visuals of the rocks form the sand line. You will likely utilise the minimum amount of sand so you need to ensure the rocks look good from the base. There is also less chance of rock movement and it is easy to replace the sand substrate and clean it if the hardscape is on the tank base for the same reason.
One thing I would suggest is to decide upon what composition you would like to start with; like an island, triangular composition etc. Try to visualise what you are trying to achieve as it makes choosing each rock for the hardscape easier.

You have an epic rock selection and I have to say I am envious of that collection......
Good luck.


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## Tim Harrison (12 May 2020)

Good advice Ady from one who knows. Like you say lighting is likely to be the critical issue. In low light tanks fish choice is also something that perhaps needs consideration too. Fish that are found in blackwater habitats or fish with day glow colours like cardinals, or glowlights would stand out really well and maybe be a good choice, for instance.


Ady34 said:


> You have an epic rock selection and I have to say I am envious of that collection......


I'm very envious of that rock collection too, I think it's Adam Paszczela's


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## Ady34 (12 May 2020)

Tim Harrison said:


> I'm very envious of that rock collection too, I think it's Adam Paszczela's


Yeah Frodo stone, in Andrews first post that collection is incredible  Tends to lend itself to building from the base also with its flat linear form.


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## Tim Harrison (12 May 2020)

That's non too shabby either


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## Jayefc1 (12 May 2020)

The filter was already mature it is very over filtered with 2 JBL 1500 with in line co2 the sand is JBL zanzibar the sand barely moves to be honest now and again I get bare patches in corners but that again is from the filters I think the key to just sand and stone is really well filtered water and like ady says low light the light is a twinstar 600e on 60% and hung higher over the tank but still get reasonable growth from the plants and not to many alge issues


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## Andrew Butler (12 May 2020)

@Ady34 @Tim Harrison @alto @Jayefc1
I'll try and remember everyone now.........
(I know I've missed some comments previously then I apologise and feel free to prod me which on which ones maybe important in particular)
I didn't realise I could have got someone to simply do a scape for me and send me that stone so I ordered a load buying blind, some will be up for sale when I work out a few things, not as it's 'rubbish' I just have far too much and don't plan on certain things going forward or have the storage space. Unfortunately there's not too many pieces that are as thin as the ones in the example I added as I'd quite happily settle for that layout and be done with it.

I'll try and reply to everything so might be quite lengthy!

This is to go in the all in one I have which gives the display dimensions of an AS900 with the filtration 'added on' to the right hand side, it's viewed from the front and left only.

I have Andys page open in another tab Tim, so that will be on the to do list. 

If I'm to start this afresh then I wonder if adding the kind of plants mentioned alone would be the best idea? - a clump of Hygrophila or something alike might help things along I guess and can be took out once things seem a little more settled. (Tropica's guide for idiots is just for me)

I've never been the biggest fan of moss but some of the Frodo has quite square edges and moss may just be the thing to take the edge off. The stone is very nice to look at and I really enjoy the sight of the nooks and crannies etc, I imagine Algae will too. That brings me onto lighting etc that's been mentioned; I've a Twinstar 900S suspended over the top which I can control the intensity of and also the height which maybe advantageous.
I most definitely want plants in there, exactly what and how is a big question and I imagine the final layout would help make that decision easier..
The biggest fear I have over circulation is sand just getting blown round everywhere!
I think a triangular type layout lends itself best, sloping towards the back right but I'm always willing to listen to other views and suggestions.
A layer of sand and going upwards is the plan and think having certain 'key' stones maybe even secured in place could be a good idea; there's loads of products aimed towards the salty side of things and it will always clean off stone if I ever wanted to in the future.
Wood is something I got put off a little after seeing the degradation it had on somebody's thread in the past months. I'm not against wood and actually really liked the piece I made a while back but it doesn't fit with the stone. I did have some Beech drying out but not been back to have a look for a while at its progress - maybe I should! I know a lot of it was just too straight and without character, unsure how I'd fit it in either.

On the livestock front I've got some really nice Blue Neocardinia shrimp from @Steve Buce that look great, I also went just before all of this started and 'got what I could' and ended up with some Neon Green Rasbora which just flash under the light and some Ember Tetra. Whether they will stay together or not is a question. I really like how a couple of different species look in a big shoal or two and these are proving quite characterful. I'm unsure the Ember Tetra will be as adventurous as the Green Rasbora but they do sometimes 'come out to play'
I'm not so keen on the blackwater look but that's not to say some of the fish are excluded.
I did enjoy some hockeystick pencilfish (nannostomus eques) and the way they acted before but think that colour could be more important with this kind of layout.
I do really like the Chilli Rasboa (boraras brigittae) but I understand them to be a bit iffy with shrimp and would rather they not eat the young of the shrimp I got from @Steve Buce.

Open to suggestions on everything. 

There's a few layouts I like and could take inspiration from but it's the execution I struggle with. Hopefully I can just have a play around outside and see where it gets me - straight lines and angles are my thing, not natural lines and curves.

You've probably seen it before but here's the picture of what I made before from a few pieces of Manzinita and with the stone being the size it is just won't balance out in my opinion. Photo just to give you an idea.


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## Jayefc1 (12 May 2020)

I like the simplistic rock and wood scape you have done when there is detailing finished off in the tank maybe some diffrent gradients of smaller stone to gravel to sand it would completely change the way you see it bit I can really imagine it already I watched a video recently from green aqua I think where the ADA guy used yoga Matt inside the tank to rest the rocks and wood on so they didnt slip and slide and to protect the bottom glass maybe worth thinking about


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## foxfish (12 May 2020)

I did a no soil tank with the C02 coming up from underneath the plants.


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## Andrew Butler (12 May 2020)

Jayefc1 said:


> The filter was already mature it is very over filtered with 2 JBL 1500 with in line co2 the sand is JBL zanzibar the sand barely moves to be honest now and again I get bare patches in corners but that again is from the filters I think the key to just sand and stone is really well filtered water and like ady says low light the light is a twinstar 600e on 60% and hung higher over the tank but still get reasonable growth from the plants and not to many alge issues





Jayefc1 said:


> I like the simplistic rock and wood scape you have done when there is detailing finished off in the tank maybe some diffrent gradients of smaller stone to gravel to sand it would completely change the way you see it bit I can really imagine it already I watched a video recently from green aqua I think where the ADA guy used yoga Matt inside the tank to rest the rocks and wood on so they didnt slip and slide and to protect the bottom glass maybe worth thinking about


Is Zanzibar about the same size/weight as La Plata?

It was just a few stones I threw in to see how it looked against the wood last year but wasn't struck by it; although I was trying to include the big stone.
Unsure the piece of wood is quite what I think it is in way of structure/detail anyway - I was just happy I'd got 2 pieces secured together and made something that stood up and used pieces I had.
I think this system should do a reasonable job of filtration, it's around 40 litres.
The 900s can always be dialed down easily enough and as I missed in your first post as it's suspended can be adjusted in height also.
I've got some clear Perspex and also some polystyrene type material should I choose to use it but do think I could gain some from using some kind of glue or I used 'Nyos Reef Cement' with my marine and found it really good, can always cover it in ground stone/sand if needed but I remember it being quite dark anyway.


foxfish said:


> I did a no soil tank with the C02 coming up from underneath the plants.


Looks good but, that's almost a tease.........how did you make that happen?


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## Andrew Butler (12 May 2020)

*I need to be very clear that post #15 is not my work but one by Adam Paszczela, a man I would love to have the skills of and not actual stones I have
Check out ADA Polska/Poland on Facebook, his website http://www.aquadam.com.pl/ or look him up on YouTube (there's not loads) but I rate him as about the best out there right now.*


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## foxfish (12 May 2020)

Sorry, I used a sump with C02 straight into the return pump, then down under a perforated plate.
Then I used gravel in some pots.


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## Andrew Butler (13 May 2020)

foxfish said:


> Sorry, I used a sump with C02 straight into the return pump, then down under a perforated plate.
> Then I used gravel in some pots.


Just so I'm clear; you fed the CO2 just before the return pump (in sump) and the white pipe is the return from that pump in your sump and returning the flow (including CO2) to the aquarium under the gravel?
I'm unsure how that would work for me with the sand; but I sure do enjoy hearing about your 'interesting adventures' and things I've not seen before or would think of.


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## foxfish (13 May 2020)

Yes that is right, it worked really well although that was quite a few years ago and before inline atomisers were really popular .
I could probably work out a better method nowadays but the idea of the C02 being evenly distributed up through the substrate  seemed like a good one .    
That picture shows a big powerhead but that was just put in to make a video of all the plants moving around, unfortunately the video along with many of my pictures  is locked up in photobucket!


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## Jayefc1 (13 May 2020)

When I get a chance il send you a pick of both sands side by side there isnt much difference


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## Andrew Butler (13 May 2020)

foxfish said:


> Yes that is right, it worked really well although that was quite a few years ago and before inline atomisers were really popular .
> I could probably work out a better method nowadays but the idea of the C02 being evenly distributed up through the substrate  seemed like a good one .
> That picture shows a big powerhead but that was just put in to make a video of all the plants moving around, unfortunately the video along with many of my pictures  is locked up in photobucket!


I think you know I've got my CO2 feeding straight into my return pump from a bazooka diffuser, time will tell how that works for me.
No real idea about photobucket aside from I think it's no longer a free service?


Jayefc1 said:


> When I get a chance il send you a pick of both sands side by side there isnt much difference


Great, I look forward to it.


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## Ray (14 May 2020)

“Andrew Butler said:


> A layer of sand and going upwards is the plan and think having certain 'key' stones maybe even secured in place could be a good idea; there's loads of products aimed towards the salty side of things and it will always clean off stone if I ever wanted to in the future.



Yes, do that - if you are looking from the front left corner that corner will be the “beach” it will build up towards the back right in a natural sort of way.


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## Andrew Butler (19 Jul 2020)

Still no real progress! The replacement acrylic as you can imagine in this climate is something in demand elsewhere but gives me some thinking time.

Wanting to have a cosmetic sand around/between the rocks leads me to think about maintenance a bit also; would it be easier if I can simply siphon it out and leave me the option to replace/wash it? To do this I would need something to stabilise the stone and have it as a standalone structure which I like the idea of, executing it on the other hand is a different matter. Wonder if by simply cutting the stone to the thickness I want and allowing it to interlock and sit in an interesting way would be worth considering. Making height up with something like expanding foam and seating the stones in it could be an option, maybe people have some others to put forward?

Maybe looking to use a shape like I have in the picture below where height is directed both ways and a little higher on the right than the left, whether I would include wood, whether this piece or another is something I'm thinking about more to give me additional planting options but it may spoil the look.

I think I'm starting to see a mountain gully type feel with sand between the stones if I can make the height up and I like the look.


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## Andrew Butler (24 Sep 2020)

There's an update to all of this, but if anything are maybe backwards steps 
After being messed around by various people throughout the whole project beyond belief I decided I just wanted to opt for something smaller, more manageable and hopefully simple. 

I'm now likely opting for an ADA 60-P sized aquarium running on an external filter (600 x 300 x 360mm LxWxH) - something I've always been dead set against but broadening the mind is hopefully going to be a good move here.

My current thinking is to consider making height up in expanding foam, then set some smaller pieces of Frodo stone into the foam, which I have cut from the larger pieces.
I'm unsure if this is a good idea for starters, so welcome opinion and reasoning.
I might make this as a lift in / lift out type structure on a piece of acrylic depending on weight and how trials go.
The plan is to just add some sand between and in front of the stonework, adding wood is something that I would decide along the journey but if it goes wrong then I can just start again.

I look forward to constructive input.
Andrew


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## alto (24 Sep 2020)

Andrew Butler said:


> ADA 60-P sized aquarium


I definitely think this will give you more scope - aquascapes and livestock - than the 45P


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## Andrew Butler (25 Sep 2020)

alto said:


> I definitely think this will give you more scope - aquascapes and livestock - than the 45P


Now the bigger one is gone I have room for the 60P, I hadn't expected it to fly from a marine forum in 30 minutes!
I also still have around 200kg if Frodo that I'm not going to need a fraction of though!

Any opinion on the expanding foam idea?


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## oscar (25 Sep 2020)

Expanded foam for height in theory sounds a great idea..In practice i would think there would be other ways of achieving the look needed, as there is not much room for error with this idea/if goes wrong would take perhaps more than a little work to put right.

Have you a certain look you are after?! As there is as you will already know, many ways of achieving height within aquariums.

All the best though, and that is a nice aquarium


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## Andrew Butler (25 Sep 2020)

Hi @oscar 


oscar said:


> that is a nice aquarium


Which is no longer mine. 
60P size is now the focus, so please read on............

I've a lot of Frodo stone, which in general are larger, thicker pieces and I like the detail as you can see in the picture below. 

I've struggled for ideas of how to keep this look and the only way I've come up with so far is to cut some of the larger pieces down in both thickness and size if needed, I say if needed as the stone is quite fragile and will likely just fall apart naturally.

Putting these smaller pieces back to resemble 'something interesting' is what I would like to do. 
Holding the smaller pieces in place, so they don't start moving around all of the time I see as a positive, in my opinion at least.
Adding sand in and around the pieces is intended to make things look more natural and soften any sharp edges.

Defining 'something interesting' I know is very much open to interpretation, I'm picturing something with the texture of the Frodo with sand running between, almost in a mountainous gully kind of way, something I know again is not very focussed.

I think part will depend on the method I use and how things end up looking as I go - I'm sure people will say I need a clear plan before I start, which I don't really.

I have no clear plan of planting right now but am quite focused on minimal effort, maximum enjoyment at the same time as it intending to last.

I'm open to suggestions but please bare in mind I'd like to avoid soil and try sticking with the sand/stone only hardscape - the option to just siphon the cosmetic sand out and replace as needed is also a huge positive for me, I hope.

I've not ruled wood out but would like to try and create a solid base first then add the wood it if it's needed, which I imagine it will be.


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## oscar (25 Sep 2020)

Andrew Butler said:


> Hi @oscar
> 
> Which is no longer mine.
> 60P size is now the focus, so please read on............
> ...


Very nice stone  It’s just trial and error creating the hardscape, and is the enjoyable part. But you are  on a winner with that stone. I would use larger pieces to begin with as your focal point.
All the best


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## Mr.Shenanagins (25 Sep 2020)

For raising height and distributing the weight evenly I used egg crate, worked out well.


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## Andrew Butler (25 Sep 2020)

Mr.Shenanagins said:


> For raising height and distributing the weight evenly I used egg crate, worked out well.


It's filling the voids between the eggcrate that would then be a problem and cosmetic sand just disappearing.

I've no idea if the expanding foam will work but Polystyrene is a bit too floaty and expanding foam would enable me to conceal a weight amongst it to hold it down.
*experimentation still needed!


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## oscar (25 Sep 2020)

I’m sure Andrew I‘m not the only ones following this with great interest. Very intrigued by the expanding foam, cant wait for some of the obligatory/ but very welcoming pictures


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