# Has anyone ever seen a female Scarlet Badis?



## louis_last

I'm trying to work out why these essentially don't exist in the UK. I have been trying to find one for years without any luck, I've even driven cross country on more than one occasion to buy a 'female' from a shop that's been adamant they have them only ever to find unambiguously sub dominant males. I've even seen them sold specifically sexed as pairs at greater cost where without a shadow of a doubt both specimens were male but one was displaying suppressed colouration. I've just returned from another unsuccessful trip (essential trip, was also buying pet food)  to look at a tank of males and it's clear that a big part of the problem is that these are SO rare that very few people even know what the females look like - once you do there's really no mistaking them for a male.
I was working in Hamburg for a few months not long ago and made a point of visiting as many german aquatics shops as I could to see how they differed from the UK and one of the things that surprised me the most was that every shop I visited sold Scarlet Badis, and every one sold them in true sexed male/female pairs, even the german equivalent of major chains like petsmart. Does anyone have any idea why they should be so uniquely hard to source in the UK? And has anyone ever seen one? Maybe someone here has actually managed to get their hands on one somehow?
I know one shop owner who claims to have a few that he's seperated out from large batches of males but I've offered him silly money for one and he wont part with any even though he's not breeding them so I think he might just be winding me up because he knows how long I've been looking.
I have a heavily planted, low flow tank that would be perfect for a pair but I really don't want to keep a lone male and previously I had a male who I bought a 'female' partner for that turned out to be another male and they fought very aggressively and stressed each other out even in a fairy large tank with plenty of visual barriers.
If you've ever even SEEN a female Scaret Badis I want to hear from you.


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## dw1305

Hi all,


louis_last said:


> If you've ever even SEEN a female Scaret Badis I want to hear from you.


<"No, not even one">.

cheers Darrel


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## louis_last

I really wish I could figure out why they aren't available in this country, it was so bizarre seeing them everywhere in Germany. I literally never found a single shop where Dario dario was avaiable that didn't have a roughly even ratio of males to females. 
If Brexit and covid didn't complicate things so much I'm actually at the point where I'd just book a discount flight to Hamburg and bring a few back.
There must be someone in the UK who imports fish from Germany. I'm not going to rest until I find a female.


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## louis_last

The most frustrating part about this is that it must actually be really time consuming for someone to filter out 100% of the females from imports coming to the UK as it really does seem that not even 1/50 manages to slip through with all the immature males. Every single scarlet badis I have ever had identified to me as a female in the UK has been male. I would literally be willing to pay £100 for a female specimen of this fish while males tend to sell for around £4 and I'm sure I'm not alone so it just seems crazy that they're actually common and easily obtained in one of our European neighbours that until recently we had very little restrictions on trade with.
It also mystefies me that some of the suppliers providing them in Germany also operate in the UK. I've written to one of them to see if they have any insight into why this happens.


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## shangman

Could you try a transshipped like they do Betta fish? Obviously they exist somewhere!


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## louis_last

shangman said:


> Could you try a transshipped like they do Betta fish? Obviously they exist somewhere!


I could probably arrange to have them imported from Germany but it will be insanely expensive for just one or even a few fish. I looked at importing a 5cm long gecko from germany last year and it was going to cost £1000 even before brexit.
This is why I'm so keen to find out why they're not imported here by the companies that apparently do bring in males, and do still import from europe post brexit.


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## lazybones51

None of my local stores even stock males, and couldn't tell me if they'd be getting any. I watch this thread with interest as I'd love a pair 👍🏼


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## EA James

I picked up the latest copy of PFK magazine yesterday and a Scarlet Badis is on the front cover. I've not read it yet but that may be of some use/interest to you

Cheers, James


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## zozo

AFAIK the only way to keep them apart is the colour, males ar scarlet females dull grey. But subdominant males could also be grey in colour... And can go back and fort changing it.. I happened to find a couple in an LFS a few years back that was grey coloured and bought a few red and grey. But unfortunately, they didn't live long enough to prove anything other to me that they can change colour from grey to red as they feel. I had one that stayed grey all its life but they never show interest
to pair up.

This was the one that stayed grey





This the one that changed colour still in the middle of it.




Keep an eye on this Tropical Fish importer, they regularly have scarlets in stock. They also provide several UK stores with fish.
See the Shop finder for that.





						Chameleonfish | Ruinemans Aquarium
					






					www.ruinemans.com


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## shangman

louis_last said:


> I could probably arrange to have them imported from Germany but it will be insanely expensive for just one or even a few fish. I looked at importing a 5cm long gecko from germany last year and it was going to cost £1000 even before brexit.
> This is why I'm so keen to find out why they're not imported here by the companies that apparently do bring in males, and do still import from europe post brexit.


You could have a chat to Ian at KewAquatics on band.us. I bought my very nice healthy female apisto from him, he imports from Czech and from the Netherlands, with reasonable prices + a big list of fish. I checked after Brexit and I think so far only the postage has gone up (to about £30). If I was buying any choice fish that wasn't in the shops I'd buy them via him.


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## Tim Harrison

I don't think females exist. Males reproduce by binary fission, or are genetically cloned in some mad professor's laboratory. In some circles they are known as the Messiah Fish, since males are thought to come about by immaculate conception. But I don't believe that myself, since there would still need to be a female somewhere. Although, someone on Facebook reckons there's a story about Jesus feeding 5000 people with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fishes so there might be some truth to it.


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## dw1305

Hi all, 
<"TA aquaculture"> had some _Dario dario_ in recently. I asked Tim Addis whether any of them were female but his reply was fairly non-commital on the grounds that they were sub-adult, so my guess is that they are all male. 

cheers Darrel


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## Wookii

Tim Harrison said:


> I don't think females exist. Males reproduce by binary fission, or are genetically cloned in some mad professor's laboratory. In some circles they are known as the Messiah Fish, since males are thought to come about by immaculate conception. But I don't believe that myself, since there would still need to be a female somewhere. Although, someone on Facebook reckons there's a story about about Jesus feeding 5000 people with 5 loaves of bread *and 2 fishes *so there might be some truth to it.



Maybe they were the last two remaining female Badis . . .


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## tiger15

Virgin Mary is more believable.  There are self cloning fish, crayfish and reptile, but they are all females.   

Only male Badis are sold near me in US perhaps because fish farms purposely withhold females.  Hobbyists in local fish clubs have been searching for females for years with no success.  I can't speak for all of US though as it is a big country.


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## Tim Harrison

tiger15 said:


> Virgin Mary is more believable. There are self cloning fish, crayfish and reptile, but they are all females.


Or maybe the females discovered sequential hermaphroditism and fourth wave feminism, and voted to become male...


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## louis_last

Tim Harrison said:


> I don't think females exist. Males reproduce by binary fission, or are genetically cloned in some mad professor's laboratory. In some circles they are known as the Messiah Fish, since males are thought to come about by immaculate conception. But I don't believe that myself, since there would still need to be a female somewhere. Although, someone on Facebook reckons there's a story about Jesus feeding 5000 people with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fishes so there might be some truth to it.


Jokes aside I do actually wonder if they're being bred in some way that disproportinately produces males. Maybe with hormones or altered temperatures as with some reptiles? 
I'm pursuing all the leads that have cropped up in this thread so thanks everyone.


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## Driftless

I have seen them on a couple of USA online shops, but never in person.  Aquaticarts.com sells them in groups of 3 - 24, although, sadly, that does not help you in the UK.


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## alto

louis_last said:


> Jokes aside I do actually wonder if they're being bred in some way that disproportinately produces males. Maybe with hormones or altered temperatures as with some reptiles?
> I'm pursuing all the leads that have cropped up in this thread so thanks everyone.


Almost all the Dario sp I’ve seen are wild caught - one shop did bring in some “bred” but at $25ea I didn’t even go look
There’s a video somewhere of fish collectors rapidly sorting through tiny fish (I thought Dario sp) - tossing back the females and retaining some males, means a lot more babies next season, and collectors are often paid more for brightly coloured fish ... which is probably why, once again, I’m beginning to suspect that my S vaillanti are mostly females

One lfs has several times ordered separate male and female Dario dario: result, only the males arrive
Large groups (min 300) Dario dario usually include a few females

Dario sp ‘Myanmar’ https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/dario-sp-myanmar/ seem to include more “bycatch”females


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## Maf 2500

In 2018 I won an online auction from a seller in Norwich. When I went to pick up the item, (an aquarium), we chatted a bit and he told me he was the only person in the UK breeding Scarlet Badis. It went a bit over my head at the time so I didn't ask to see them, I just thought it a bit odd that he would think nobody else was breeding them. Now I know why.


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## MirandaB

Tim Harrison said:


> I don't think females exist. Males reproduce by binary fission, or are genetically cloned in some mad professor's laboratory. In some circles they are known as the Messiah Fish, since males are thought to come about by immaculate conception. But I don't believe that myself, since there would still need to be a female somewhere. Although, someone on Facebook reckons there's a story about Jesus feeding 5000 people with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fishes so there might be some truth to it.


I do have a very bad photo I got a few months ago of 2 of my males in a spawning embrace  will see if I can find it


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## castle

I may have an idea who had them 😎


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## louis_last

castle said:


> I may have an idea who had them 😎


what a tease.


Maf 2500 said:


> In 2018 I won an online auction from a seller in Norwich. When I went to pick up the item, (an aquarium), we chatted a bit and he told me he was the only person in the UK breeding Scarlet Badis. It went a bit over my head at the time so I didn't ask to see them, I just thought it a bit odd that he would think nobody else was breeding them. Now I know why.


Alright, next phase of my plan will be to start knocking on doors in Norwich.


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## castle

I don't have them anymore, they went to a now shut aquarium store. They've always been desirable. I thought i shared pics of the fry on here, but I did not.

As for breeding, blackwater, live foods, pH closer to 5 than 6. Sponge filter, no flow. They hunt their young. Eggs are tiny, so just siphon the spawning area and you may get some eggs out.

I had then from 2016 to 2018.


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## louis_last

I'm going to branch out and start making enquiries on tinder "seeking a female for breeding, any female, swipe left unless you're a tiny percoid fish called Dario dario"


castle said:


> I don't have them anymore, they went to a now shut aquarium store. They've always been desirable. I thought i shared pics of the fry on here, but I did not.
> 
> As for breeding, blackwater, live foods, pH closer to 5 than 6. Sponge filter, no flow. They hunt their young. Eggs are tiny, so just siphon the spawning area and you may get some eggs out.
> 
> I had then from 2016 to 2018.


Got any tips for identifying females? Can you recall at roughly what size/age sex becomes apparent in this species?


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## castle

I slowly removed every fish with colour over a 5ish month period, they all look female up until mature but some colour develops early in males at around 6 weeks from free swimming. I couldn’t tell much difference before mature - I hate to say this, but I sold all at ~2cm as I wasn’t planning to keep them going over generations. I really can’t remember when maturity colour appears 😔 eggs can be numerous, I had a lot of caves.

I bought the entire delivery, about 40 fish. I returned most.

At the time, I was far more interested in b.badis and b.assamensis. Which I spawned too 😁


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## MirandaB

Found the extremely bad photo of the 2 males lol


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## becks

Do your scarlets eat dry or frozen? I do like them, but not if they will only live.


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## MirandaB

becks said:


> Do your scarlets eat dry or frozen? I do like them, but not if they will only live.


I've never managed to get any of mine onto frozen foods but I keep enough cultures and tubs outside to provide plenty of food


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## Samala

Never come across females in all my years of looking in US LFS (specifically Chicago and all over east coast, particularly Florida). I have however seen females in the back holding tanks and experimental gallery at a US public aquarium. Those were collected directly by the professional aquarists. Discussion with local collectors had left an impression that the trade wouldn't pay for the dull colored females.


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## dw1305

Hi all, 
Welcome @Samala.

cheers Darrel


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## MirandaB

Looking promising,had to use one of the sub dominant males as the dominant one was being a bit too feisty


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## louis_last

MirandaB said:


> Looking promising,had to use one of the sub dominant males as the dominant one was being a bit too feisty



Incredible, looks like you really do have a female! I'll give you £100 for that fish if you ever change your mind and want to sell it.


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## louis_last

louis_last said:


> Incredible, looks like you really do have a female! I'll give you £100 for that fish if you ever change your mind and want to sell it.


also interested in buying fry from you.


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## Wookii

MirandaB said:


> Looking promising,had to use one of the sub dominant males as the dominant one was being a bit too feisty




You could end up single handedly breaking the apparent national crisis on breeding this fish if you end up being able to raise female fry Miranda!


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## dw1305

Hi all, 
@louis_last <"The Aquatic Store"> in Bristol have_ Dario "hysiginon"_ Black Tiger, this is what the owner (Nick Cox) said in answer to the gender question:


> _i believe so there’s dimorphism between. Some time to rest and baby brine will settle them well so will find out soon._



cheers Darrel


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## MirandaB

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> @louis_last <"The Aquatic Store"> in Bristol have_ Dario "hysiginon"_ Black Tiger, this is what the owner (Nick Cox) said in answer to the gender question:
> 
> 
> cheers Darrel


I've got a group of Black Tiger and it's a lot easier to tell male from female with those at a younger age


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## louis_last

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> @louis_last <"The Aquatic Store"> in Bristol have_ Dario "hysiginon"_ Black Tiger, this is what the owner (Nick Cox) said in answer to the gender question:
> 
> 
> cheers Darrel


appreciate the tip! I actually had a pair of Dario Hysignon a few years ago and the difference between male and female was very apparent. I made a terrible mistake with this pair and had them temporarily in the same tank as a much smaller surplus male Dario dario that had been sold to me as a female. Initially the three of them were fine sharing a tank but as the male Dario dario grew in confidence he became extremely aggressive and killed the male D. Hysignon while I was out of the country for work. For reference here's the female and male D. hysignon.


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## louis_last

and the killer D. dario



He started off as the most pathetic little malnourished transparent runt imaginable at the LFS but became an absolute monster.


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## louis_last

Just to add that I still feel terrible about what happened to the D. hysignon male - don't ever keep these species together, D. dario is much more aggressive and, even if they're not at first, can eventually become so and are well able to harass even larger fish that they don't like the look of to death.


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## louis_last

@dw1305 @lazybones51 @Tim Harrison 

Gents you three all also expressed an interested here in getting ahold of females so this is just a heads up that I was finally able to acquire a definite female yesterday from 'riverparkaquatics' on ebay. They got a small batch in and said there were two that they thought might be female, I rushed over to their warehouse and there was one, which I bought. I just thought it might be worth knowing that they have a supplier that, accidentally or not, sometimes sends females along with the males - and that the guys working there have a pretty good idea what they look like. This is exactly the sort of tip off I was looking for when I started this thread so hopefully it might be useful to someone.
Here's a picture of the female. This was taken yesterday right after her drip acclimation was finished and overnight the dark vertical bars characteristic of many of the females have become more apparent.


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## Courtneybst

louis_last said:


> @dw1305 @lazybones51 @Tim Harrison
> 
> Gents you three all also expressed an interested here in getting ahold of females so this is just a heads up that I was finally able to acquire a definite female yesterday from 'riverparkaquatics' on ebay. They got a small batch in and said there were two that they thought might be female, I rushed over to their warehouse and there was one, which I bought. I just thought it might be worth knowing that they have a supplier that, accidentally or not, sometimes sends females along with the males - and that the guys working there have a pretty good idea what they look like. This is exactly the sort of tip off I was looking for when I started this thread so hopefully it might be useful to someone.
> Here's a picture of the female. This was taken yesterday right after her drip acclimation was finished and overnight the dark vertical bars characteristic of many of the females have become more apparent.
> View attachment 165847


So great that you managed to track one down! Are you going to become the new UK supplier? 😉


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## louis_last

Courtneybst said:


> So great that you managed to track one down! Are you going to become the new UK supplier? 😉


I'm certainly going to do everything in my power to breed them. I need to hope I can keep this one happy and healthy but she's eating well and exploring her tank a lot today so I'm hopeful. There's another member here that has some pairs they're trying to breed too. One way or another I think pairs will gradually become more available. I will definitely share any fry that I produce.


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## lazybones51

louis_last said:


> @dw1305 @lazybones51 @Tim Harrison
> 
> Gents you three all also expressed an interested here in getting ahold of females so this is just a heads up that I was finally able to acquire a definite female yesterday from 'riverparkaquatics' on ebay. They got a small batch in and said there were two that they thought might be female, I rushed over to their warehouse and there was one, which I bought. I just thought it might be worth knowing that they have a supplier that, accidentally or not, sometimes sends females along with the males - and that the guys working there have a pretty good idea what they look like. This is exactly the sort of tip off I was looking for when I started this thread so hopefully it might be useful to someone.
> Here's a picture of the female. This was taken yesterday right after her drip acclimation was finished and overnight the dark vertical bars characteristic of many of the females have become more apparent.
> View attachment 165847


Thanks for the heads up, really appreciated 👍🏼 Can I ask what you paid?


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## louis_last

lazybones51 said:


> Thanks for the heads up, really appreciated 👍🏼 Can I ask what you paid?


£5.  Not bad considering I've offered more than £100 for a female D. dario recently and been quite understandably refused. I am going to spoil this fish.
She's still quite small and maybe a little underweight so I'm going to condition her for a while but once she's paired up and healthy I will document any breeding attempts here. I culture a lot of small livefoods anyway but I've been looking at some bulk live mini bloodworms shipped in wet paper on ebay, I'm sure I remember reading on here years ago though that people had been having problems with mass fish die offs from disease and parasites associated with these though but I might recall incorrectly. Does anyone have any input on their safety?


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## MirandaB

It's not so much parasites/disease,it's that D.dario are really prone to obesity so mine are never fed bloodworm.


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## Aqua360

louis_last said:


> @dw1305 @lazybones51 @Tim Harrison
> 
> Gents you three all also expressed an interested here in getting ahold of females so this is just a heads up that I was finally able to acquire a definite female yesterday from 'riverparkaquatics' on ebay. They got a small batch in and said there were two that they thought might be female, I rushed over to their warehouse and there was one, which I bought. I just thought it might be worth knowing that they have a supplier that, accidentally or not, sometimes sends females along with the males - and that the guys working there have a pretty good idea what they look like. This is exactly the sort of tip off I was looking for when I started this thread so hopefully it might be useful to someone.
> Here's a picture of the female. This was taken yesterday right after her drip acclimation was finished and overnight the dark vertical bars characteristic of many of the females have become more apparent.
> View attachment 165847


Good find


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## OmlettG

Hello,

Can any of you help sex this one (stalker (say it like your a farmer  stalkaa )) for me ?

I'm thinking it's a sub dominant but I've never seen any colour or stripping on stalkaa

Many thanks


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## louis_last

OmlettG said:


> Hello,
> 
> Can any of you help sex this one (stalker (say it like your a farmer  stalkaa )) for me ?
> 
> I'm thinking it's a sub dominant but I've never seen any colour or stripping on stalkaa
> 
> Many thanks


That looks like a female to me. I think the fact that juveniles don't necessarily display their adult colours makes it particularly hard to tell from photos though. @MirandaB gave me a good tip about the females head looking a little different in profile and slightly less pointed. Does it ever show even feint dark vertical bands? almost every female of this species I've ever seen has to some degree.


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## MirandaB

My initial thoughts are female....if it's a sub male,it's doing a very good job of hiding!


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## OmlettG

Thanks both for your replies 

So I've had two around 7/8 now there separated in the own tanks 
The male is very clearly male not the most red you've ever seen but amazing iridiscents (spelt terribly I know) he is noticeably bigger two.

This one that's pictured is smaller slightly different shape and has shown stripes on less than a handful of occasions and they were grey not red in the slightest 

I separated them as a plan to "trick" him/her into thinking it's the dominant fish and potentially showing colour but it's never happened 

I'd love to reintroduce them and see if nature takes its course but am very very apprehensive about doing so ?

Thanks for responses it's really appreciated


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## louis_last

OmlettG said:


> Thanks both for your replies
> 
> So I've had two around 7/8 now there separated in the own tanks


I don't understand what you mean, two around 7/8?


OmlettG said:


> The male is very clearly male not the most red you've ever seen but amazing iridiscents (spelt terribly I know) he is noticeably bigger two.
> 
> This one that's pictured is smaller slightly different shape and has shown stripes on less than a handful of occasions and they were grey not red in the slightest
> 
> I separated them as a plan to "trick" him/her into thinking it's the dominant fish and potentially showing colour but it's never happened
> 
> I'd love to reintroduce them and see if nature takes its course but am very very apprehensive about doing so ?
> 
> Thanks for responses it's really appreciated


If the fish in the picture has shown grey stripes I'd say with a very high degree of certainty that it's a female, I've never seen a male with dark stripes and I've never seen a female without them. I don't think there is much reason to be apprehensive about putting the male and female together, supposedly the males can sometimes bother them trying to mate when they're not ready but I wouldn't have thought it's a major risk in a reasonably sized tank. @MirandaB can probably give better advice as until recently I only had experience with males and I've still got my new female, Queen Tomyris, on her own while I fatten her up a bit.


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## MirandaB

Shouldn't be any issues putting them together if they are of a similar size and the tank is well planted to allow the female to escape the males attention if it becomes too much.


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## OmlettG

Apologies I meant 7-8 weeks 

yeah Ive just purchased a tank to Scape to move my tetra into then the Scarlett's will have that tank to themselves bar the cleanup crew 

The tank has alot of cover and heavily planted hopefully they enjoy each other company 

Thanks again


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## louis_last

OmlettG said:


> Apologies I meant 7-8 weeks
> 
> yeah Ive just purchased a tank to Scape to move my tetra into then the Scarlett's will have that tank to themselves bar the cleanup crew
> 
> The tank has alot of cover and heavily planted hopefully they enjoy each other company
> 
> Thanks again


@OmlettG you are part of a very, very exclusive club now. I'd like to help anyone trying to breed these fish in the UK anyway I can so if you want just PM me your address and I'll send you starter cultures of Moina macrocopa/micrura and Chlorella vulgaris for free. Moina can be a really useful live food for fish this size and they are very prolific.


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## louis_last

I introduced my female to a male yesterday and I was very interested to see that she had a very strong reaction to him. Even when he was still floating in a bag she recognised him almost immediately and watched him intently the entire time he was acclimating, they've been moving around the tank together hunting mostly as a unit since then. I didn't expect them to interact with each other so much outside of breeding.
When she showed such a strong interest in him in the bag I actually wondered whether I might have made a terrible mistake and she was another subdominant male after all but once they were together she started flashing her dark bars confirming beyond doubt that they're a real pair.
So much character for such small fish.


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## MirandaB

Confirmed sighting just now of 2 fry in one tank!! 😁


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## louis_last

MirandaB said:


> Confirmed sighting just now of 2 fry in one tank!! 😁



Amazing! that looks quite well developed too, how old do you reckon it is? Did you notice them guarding the eggs or any other behaviour that might have tipped you off or were these a total surprise? I'd love to see some pictures of your set up for the pairs miranda just so I know what definitely works.


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## MirandaB

No idea how old they are but they're big enough not to be threatened by the adults,certainly saw the female swimming with them and they weren't bothered so they obviously know how big they need to be before putting in a public appearance lol.
Didn't notice any real changes in behaviour if I'm honest and I've been studying them quite closely but was just feeding them when I noticed the fry swimming in the open so that was a surprise.
That pair are in a 15lt and the other pair are in a 28lt,not noticed any fry in the bigger tank yet but I'm planning on moving the adults all into a 75lt tank and leaving them to it as advised by my friend in Germany.
Will take some photos of the tanks in a bit but they're literally just rammed with moss and hornwort plus a few other plants.


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## MirandaB

Well in an utterly embarrassing (for me) update those fry turned out to be Paraphanius mento,wondered why they were at the surface so much and seemed a bit long🤣
How they got in there I don't know as I'm almost certain I never nicked any moss from their tank to put in the Dario tank and each tank has it's own equipment but I guess I must have chucked some moss in there.
I've removed them and out of the undergrowth emerged half a dozen actual Dario fry


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## Wookii

MirandaB said:


> Well in an utterly embarrassing (for me) update those fry turned out to be Paraphanius mento,wondered why they were at the surface so much and seemed a bit long🤣
> How they got in there I don't know as I'm almost certain I never nicked any moss from their tank to put in the Dario tank and each tank has it's own equipment but I guess I must have chucked some moss in there.
> I've removed them and out of the undergrowth emerged half a dozen actual Dario fry  View attachment 167565



Congrats! That’s was quick!


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## shangman

Not so embarrassing after all!


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## Ash_bash

MirandaB said:


> I've got a group of Black Tiger and it's a lot easier to tell male from female with those at a younger age


I've brought a group of black Tigers hoping for a female, pretty sure 3 males and one I'm not so certain of, how do you sex yours?


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## MirandaB

Ash_bash said:


> I've brought a group of black Tigers hoping for a female, pretty sure 3 males and one I'm not so certain of, how do you sex yours?


Females are a much duller colour although still have some striping but not the black head.
I find looking at the head shape is easier as it's shorter and more rounded in females.


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## Ash_bash

MirandaB said:


> Females are a much duller colour although still have some striping but not the black head.
> I find looking at the head shape is easier as it's shorter and more rounded in females.


Ah Thanks for that, I've got one that's never shown any black or red, I didn't know about the head shape, I'll keep a look out but they are pretty secretive!


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## Ash_bash

This one's about 2/3rds of the size of the rest and never really shown any colour, might just be an undernutrited male as the other males are pretty aggressive towards it, thought they have been abit more gentlemanly if it was a female


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## louis_last

Ash_bash said:


> This one's about 2/3rds of the size of the rest and never really shown any colour, might just be an undernutrited male as the other males are pretty aggressive towards it, thought they have been abit more gentlemanly if it was a female


This looks like a female to me. 
Here's an old picture of my female Tiger badis for comparison.




I witnessed my Scarlet badis pair mating the other night so I'm hopeful I may have some fry soon too.


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## mrhoyo

If anyone thinks they can reproduce then this might be helpful:






						Female Scarlet Badis ~ 1cm
					

Tropical fish delivered to your door with a 7 day guarantee!



					www.tropco.co.uk


----------



## MirandaB

mrhoyo said:


> If anyone thinks they can reproduce then this might be helpful:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Female Scarlet Badis ~ 1cm
> 
> 
> Tropical fish delivered to your door with a 7 day guarantee!
> 
> 
> 
> www.tropco.co.uk


It would be interesting to see if they really are females but I'm afraid that's not a company I will buy from.
The description is for Badis badis for a start and some of the care advice is frankly wrong.


----------



## sparkyweasel

"Males and females are exciting to watch and often give birth to lots of small fry."
Oh dear. 
That's not Badis, it's female guppies and male seahorses.


----------



## MirandaB

sparkyweasel said:


> "Males and females are exciting to watch and often give birth to lots of small fry."
> Oh dear.
> That's not Badis, it's female guppies and male seahorses.


They've changed it since earlier....it just said "They love to breed" previously and now that's been moved to the special requirements 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## castle

When Badis are in session there are a lot of fry 👍


----------



## louis_last

Saw my first fry today, can't be absolutely certain whether it was a badis fry because there's also boraras in there but it had looked like it had stripes so I'm thinking badis.


----------



## MirandaB

louis_last said:


> Saw my first fry today, can't be absolutely certain whether it was a badis fry because there's also boraras in there but it had looked like it had stripes so I'm thinking badis.


Congratulations @louis_last 😁 where there's one,there's bound to be more or so I've found!


----------



## louis_last

MirandaB said:


> Congratulations @louis_last 😁 where there's one,there's bound to be more or so I've found!


Did you notice the fry had stripes? There were four of them that darted away to hide in moss when the light came on today and they're still tiny but all looked kind of stripey to me.


----------



## MirandaB

louis_last said:


> Did you notice the fry had stripes? There were four of them that darted away to hide in moss when the light came on today and they're still tiny but all looked kind of stripey to me.


No they haven't any stripes as far as I can see but most of them are still relatively tiny.
The male looks to have another batch on the go I think as he is keeping to the cave apart from nipping out for food.


----------



## louis_last

MirandaB said:


> No they haven't any stripes as far as I can see but most of them are still relatively tiny.
> The male looks to have another batch on the go I think as he is keeping to the cave apart from nipping out for food.


hmmmm...... maybe they are boraras fry after all.


----------



## MirandaB

I'll try and get a close up photo of one or two of the tiny ones tomorrow.


----------



## louis_last

MirandaB said:


> I'll try and get a close up photo of one or two of the tiny ones tomorrow.


That would be really cool Miranda. I've got a better look at them this morning and I'm not sure they actually have stripes after all, might have just been shadows from the floater roots. It would be great to have something to compare them too.


----------



## MirandaB

louis_last said:


> That would be really cool Miranda. I've got a better look at them this morning and I'm not sure they actually have stripes after all, might have just been shadows from the floater roots. It would be great to have something to compare them too.


Just uploading some photos from my camera now


----------



## MirandaB




----------



## Wookii

At what age do they usually start to colour up like the images you typically see online? Also how long do they usually live?


----------



## MirandaB

Not sure on how long it will be before they start to show colour and apparently the lifespan is anywhere from 3-6 years.


----------



## louis_last

Those pictures are great @MirandaB but mine are still only a few mm long, barely bigger than baby shrimp, so it's hard to make a comparison. I can't get pictures yet because they hide the minute the light comes on. I guess I'll just have to wait and see. I'm glad that I've got such a reliable source of freshwater rotifers from the microfex cultures though, hopefully I can get them big enough to seperate from the adults as I'd have no chance of catching them at the moment.


----------



## Monkfish

Love these little fish and reading about the hunt for the elusive females. Would love to try and get some for my nano I am setting up. How difficult are they to feed? Are they a purely live food only fish?


----------



## louis_last

Wookii said:


> At what age do they usually start to colour up like the images you typically see online? Also how long do they usually live?


The owner of aquasnack uk told me he used to breed them and I _think_ he said about six months.


----------



## louis_last

Monkfish said:


> Love these little fish and reading about the hunt for the elusive females. Would love to try and get some for my nano I am setting up. How difficult are they to feed? Are they a purely live food only fish?


Depends who you ask and I'm guessing whether they are wild caught or not. I've seen reports of people even being able to gradually wean them onto flake foods but it seems to be very rare and they might actually just be seeing them take the occasional nibble and assuming they are subsisting on it when in fact they're mostly eating copepods and rotifers etc. that are present in the aquarium and they will also 100% eat snails and their eggs.
I've been able to get scarlet badis and dario hysignon to reliably take frozen copepods in the past without much effort and I'll be interested to see whether it might be easier to acclimate captive bred specimens to non live food than wild caught ones now that I seem to have some fry.
I wouldn't feel right about not offering them any live food at all though. Based on my experience I would think that a large enough densely planted tank without excessive filtration, any large predators, or UV sterilisers could possibly support a pair just with indiginous tiny arthropods that tend to be present in mature aquariums alongside a population of shrimp and snails but at the moment I culture a lot of different live food for them.
I've been having great success culturing some Crangonyx pseudogracillis that I got from @dw1305 . Given that only the babies are small enough to be eaten by scarlet badis I'm hoping soon to add them to the tank along with the cherries and amanos that are already in there - and that they'll be able to sustain themselves as an extra food source as they seem to breed faster than cherries. My cherry population is pretty stable even with a handful of micropredators in there so I've got high hopes for the crangonyx because they're also very entertaining to watch and some of them are a beautiful blue/green colour.


----------



## louis_last

mrhoyo said:


> If anyone thinks they can reproduce then this might be helpful:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Female Scarlet Badis ~ 1cm
> 
> 
> Tropical fish delivered to your door with a 7 day guarantee!
> 
> 
> 
> www.tropco.co.uk


I've not ordered from this company before but before I was able to source my female from riverpark aquatics I was in contact with them and they did claim to be able to get female scarlet badis. I think it's entirely possible that they have actually made an effort to do so based on my harassment of them and that this listing is the real deal. I might even order a couple and see what turns up, I'd definitely say this is your best bet if anyone reading this is looking to get ahold of a female.


----------



## louis_last

Got a picture of my female while she was up against the front glass that shows the black bars that can be present on the females quite well, as well as the little flashes of blue iridescence that they can display.
It's actually incredible how quickly they can make these black bars appear and disappear to communicate with males and I wish I understood exactly how they do it. The only other animals I've seen change their colour and patterns this quickly are cephalopods like cuttlefish and octopuses.
It's tricky to catch on cemera because of how quickly they flash the stripes but they are capable of making them almost solid and darker than you see here. I snapped this picture on my phone and about a second later she was back to normal.


----------



## Monkfish

louis_last said:


> Depends who you ask and I'm guessing whether they are wild caught or not. I've seen reports of people even being able to gradually wean them onto flake foods but it seems to be very rare and they might actually just be seeing them take the occasional nibble and assuming they are subsisting on it when in fact they're mostly eating copepods and rotifers etc. that are present in the aquarium and they will also 100% eat snails and their eggs.
> I've been able to get scarlet badis and dario hysignon to reliably take frozen copepods in the past without much effort and I'll be interested to see whether it might be easier to acclimate captive bred specimens to non live food than wild caught ones now that I seem to have some fry.
> I wouldn't feel right about not offering them any live food at all though. Based on my experience I would think that a large enough densely planted tank without excessive filtration, any large predators, or UV sterilisers could possibly support a pair just with indiginous tiny arthropods that tend to be present in mature aquariums alongside a population of shrimp and snails but at the moment I culture a lot of different live food for them.
> I've been having great success culturing some Crangonyx pseudogracillis that I got from @dw1305 . Given that only the babies are small enough to be eaten by scarlet badis I'm hoping soon to add them to the tank along with the cherries and amanos that are already in there - and that they'll be able to sustain themselves as an extra food source as they seem to breed faster than cherries. My cherry population is pretty stable even with a handful of micropredators in there so I've got high hopes for the crangonyx because they're also very entertaining to watch and some of them are a beautiful blue/green colour.


Thank you very much.  I think I will have to hold off getting some then until I can find a space to keep a small live food farm.  How do you keep your Crangonyx out of interest?


----------



## BigD

Viscum Water Gardens in Barnburgh, South Yorkshire have male and female scarlet badis for sale.  The females were shipped in a separate bag and are displayed in a different tank.  They are trying a new Indian supplier and currently have some unusual fish from the area.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


Monkfish said:


> How do you keep your Crangonyx out of interest?


I was @louis_last's supplier and I keep them <"In my _Asellus_">  and Black worm (<"_Lumbriculus">)_ buckets (below).

I've kept _Crangonyx_ like this <"since 2016"> and _Asellus_ and _Lumbriculus_ for ~10 years without any problems.





cheers Darrel


----------



## louis_last

Monkfish said:


> Thank you very much.  I think I will have to hold off getting some then until I can find a space to keep a small live food farm.  How do you keep your Crangonyx out of interest?


I'm keeping them more or less the same way @dw1305 does in his buckets. I've got them in a plastic tub with java moss, some fallen beech leaves, a little bit of cuttlebone and some snails. I've tossed some algae from my vivarium in there as well as the odd bit of food I make for my shrimps and they seem to be thriving. Theres a few batches of babies scooting about anyway but @dw1305 was kind enough to send at least one berried female so they got off to a good start right off the bat.
Seems like you can basically just treat them as cherry shrimp.

As far as livefood farms go, a large bucket in the corner of a garden would be enough for a couple of badis if you did decide to go down that route. If the bucket is large enough even in winter up here in scotland you can remove the ice and there will still be huge numbers of daphnia etc. underneath. I've pulled a five inch thick slab of ice off the top of mine and still been able to harvest plenty before.


----------



## sparkyweasel

louis_last said:


> I wish I understood exactly how they do it.


If you want to search for info, the colour-changing cells are called chromatophores.
Wiki has the basics, and a nice microscope video clip of how they contract.
Wiki


----------



## Wookii

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I was @louis_last's supplier and I keep them <"In my _Asellus_">  and Black worm (<"_Lumbriculus">)_ buckets (below).
> 
> I've kept _Crangonyx_ like this <"since 2016"> and _Asellus_ and _Lumbriculus_ for ~10 years without any problems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cheers Darrel



What do the _Crangonyx_ typically eat in the aquarium Darrel, or do they only typically only survive in the culture environment?


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


Wookii said:


> What do the _Crangonyx_ typically eat in the aquarium Darrel


<"Green algae, dead leaves and fish food">, but I've also found them in the filter, so they presumably eat any form of biofilm.  

cheers Darrel


----------



## Gill

This is a good video from Goliad Farms
SCUDS! - Everything you want to know

And thanks for the link to TropCo - They have some fish I have been after and the price is reasonable


----------



## louis_last

I've got a lot more fry than I realised, I've been leaving the tank alone other than feeding but I weeded out some floaters today and there were loads of fry hanging out along the back wall that were just hard to see because of the black background. 
Some of us have been discussing culturing microfex worms in another thread and one of the incredible things about the Russian method we've been shown is that it ends up being a co-culture of microfex and freshwater rotifers. I'm not an experienced fish breeder, but for anyone that already breeds small fish or is thinking about it, I can't possibly overstate how useful having one of these worm cultures on hand to extract rotifers is. I think there's a very strong case to be made that culturing these worms on sponge is probably also actually _the_ best way to culture freshwater rotifers as culturing them in isolating can be a bit fiddly and prone to crashes.
The worms themselves are also an excellent feeder and after today I can also confirm that they survive in the aquarium - I moved a piece of moss that had just been sitting on the substrate and there were several of the worms in it. 
HERE is a link to the Russian guy Alex that sells the worm cultures on ebay. They're listed as collection only because they're sensitive to shipping but he sent them by post to me and they survived just fine.


----------



## louis_last

Here's a video of the rotifers I'm talking about. I can harvest this amount several times a day or as often as needed from a worm culture no larger than a thick book and all that's necessary to keep it going is to pour out and replace the water about once a week and sprinkle a little oat flour on top of the sponge. 
Have you been taking advantage of this extra source of fry food from your microfex @MirandaB?


----------



## louis_last

This is the best picture I've been able to get of one of the fry so far but it's becoming easier as they are now free swimming. It's the tiny little thing above the ramshorn at the edge of the wood. The young growth of fissidens fontanus gives you some sense of scale and if you look closely you can see a tiny patch of the _obscenely _hard to source and _ridiculously_ slow growing miniature Fissidens splachnabryoides around the Buce roots.
I'm guessing there's maybe 20 fry in there but it's hard to tell because I suspect most of them are hiding. The parents don't seem interested in eating them even when they're right in front of their faces but I'm not taking any chances and have been making various small livefoods abundantly available so if they're hungry there's always a slower moving moina or ceriodaphnia within reach. 
My success here reflects how easy this species apparently is to breed rather than any expertise on my part so if anyone has any advice on rasing the fry it would be very welcome. I've managed to catch a few and move them into a seperate bare bottom container with tons of moss and floating plants but I'm leaving the bulk of them in the main tank for now. There's a lot of hiding places in there for them and I'm adding baby microworms and rotifers daily.
Otherwise I'm treating the tank pretty much the same as ever except I'm doing smaller water changes as I understand fry can be sensitive to that.


----------



## MirandaB

I'd carry on as you're doing @louis_last,they'll eat the various microfauna in the tank,microworms and rotifers then will move onto the bigger stuff pretty quickly.
I've been doing 50% water changes and not noticed any issues with the fry so far in regards to that.


----------



## MirandaB

One definitely identifiable male fry


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


MirandaB said:


> One definitely identifiable male fry


Lovely, but hopefully they won't all be male!

cheers Darrel


----------



## MirandaB

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Lovely, but hopefully they won't all be male!
> 
> cheers Darrel


Hopefully not....quietly confidant that at least 2 of the other older fry are female but time will tell 🙂
The other pair don't seem to have produced any fry and I think it might possibly be down to the fact some "cull" shrimp got in there so I've removed the shrimp to see if that was the issue.


----------



## louis_last

MirandaB said:


> One definitely identifiable male fry View attachment 169263


roughly how old do you reckon that one is? would be good to have some sense of how quickly they develop.


----------



## MirandaB

louis_last said:


> roughly how old do you reckon that one is? would be good to have some sense of how quickly they develop.


I never saw them until they were quite well developed so I'd say just over 3 months


----------



## MirandaB

A few more males have decided to make themselves known lol as yet it's not causing any problems as they're in a 100lt with plenty of territory space but as soon as it becomes an issue they'll be moved on.
This the male shown in the previous photo and he is now actively breeding.


----------



## louis_last

I've got 30+ grown on scarlet badis fry now that are eating all the same foods as the adults but actually they can eat much larger daphnia and moina than I expected even when they are still very small - they just keep chewing them and spitting them back out until they're compressed enough for them to swallow. They were also able to eat worms much larger than themselves from a surprisingly small size. None have begun to show colours yet other than some blue on their pectorals but even at this size I suspect there is a perceptible difference between the head shape of males and females and the largest of the fry is not much smaller now than the female was when I got her so I think they're going to start colouring up soon.
I'm still in the process of training them onto frozen foods, some of them readily ate frozen copepods the very first time they were offered but others seem to take a bite and then spit it straight out. I'm going to try and get them feeding on decapsulated brine shrimp eggs as a non motile foodstuff that they will hopefully still recognize as food once it's in their mouth and then ultimately golden pearls.
I didn't expect to have this many, I thought it would be harder to raise them through their truly tiny phase and that the adults would eat some but in fact the ones I seperated from the adults into their own tank grew much more slowly than the rest and I've never seen the adults show any interest in eating them even when they would easily have fit in their mouths.
If anyone wants some free CB scarlet badis get in touch! I counted 30+ at once in the open today and it would seem silly not to assume that there are more hiding in the moss and plants 😅


----------



## NatalieHurrell

OK, so many months too late to the party, but just found this:  Female Scarlet Badis ~ 1cm


----------



## Nerys

Hi

Nice to see some other D.dario keepers!!

I have a group of Dario sp. Myanmar, and a group of Dario Dario,  both groups have females in 

I actually bought some of the female dario's from TropCo, although they were very small when they arrived, they were healthy and took to feeding straight away.  They are out of Q'tine now and in with the rest of the pack, still a lot smaller than the adults but getting there!

My Dario sp. Myanmar are breeding, its very hard to see small fry in my tanks, there is a lot of debris on the substrate, many hiding holes and a lot of plants, but I did manage to get some shots of one little fry dude I snuck up on!

I'll add some pics once I have got them off the phone and onto the PC 



louis_last said:


> If anyone wants some free CB scarlet badis get in touch! I counted 30+ at once in the open today and it would seem silly not to assume that there are more hiding in the moss and plants 😅



Well done Louis!  Do you still have any looking for new homes? My current group have come from 2 sources, but I'd be interested in adding potential new bloodlines in if you have any left 

Thanks

Nerys


----------



## Nerys

some pics!


----------



## Nerys

Some of the Dario dario


----------



## afroturf

Is it Dario breeding time? I managed to pick up a group of Dario dario including two females about 6 weeks ago and let them loose i my 250l tank, I've seen the dominant male mate multiple time with one or both the females but today whilst the filters were off at feeding time I was delighted to see one tiny baby. I was then thinking if he/she could survive its 5mm max so hopefully too big now to be eaten by any of the other inhabitants so finger crossed they'll make it to adulthood and that a few more will appear.


----------



## GHNelson

Female Scarlet Badis ~ 1cm
					

Tropical fish delivered to your door with a 7 day guarantee!



					www.tropco.co.uk


----------



## sparkyweasel

GHNelson said:


> Female Scarlet Badis ~ 1cm
> 
> 
> Tropical fish delivered to your door with a 7 day guarantee!
> 
> 
> 
> www.tropco.co.uk


Well. that gave me a laugh;
"Males and females are exciting to watch and often give birth to lots of small fry."


----------



## Food_locker71

Hi,

I know this forum is mostly for Uk residents, but I have a hard time finding these here in Canada (been looking for over eleven years now, time sure flies!) If somebody would be so kind, and ship a bunch of females here!


----------



## louis_last

Food_locker71 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I know this forum is mostly for Uk residents, but I have a hard time finding these here in Canada (been looking for over eleven years now, time sure flies!) If somebody would be so kind, and ship a bunch of females here!


I eventually managed to find a single female in a fresh batch of imports and have since had a lot of success breeding these - I'm literally giving them away for free so consider moving to Scotland.
Here's a video of some of mine just for reference in your hunt for females. It's useful to see them compared to the males in order to avoid accidentally buying sub dominant males. Once you know what you're looking for it's actually pretty easy to tell them apart.


----------



## rdk1402

Thanks for sharing Louis. Lovely! Any plans on visiting the Netherlands?

I was wondering if you have ever noticed a different sex ratio in offspring due to temperature differences (or another factor).

I breed Dario tigris myself. Here's a small group of juveniles in one of my tanks.


----------



## Food_locker71

louis_last said:


> I eventually managed to find a single female in a fresh batch of imports and have since had a lot of success breeding these - I'm literally giving them away for free so consider moving to Scotland.
> Here's a video of some of mine just for reference in your hunt for females. It's useful to see them compared to the males in order to avoid accidentally buying sub dominant males. Once you know what you're looking for it's actually pretty easy to tell them apart.



Wooow. How much can I pay you for you to consider shipping some of your babies over there??

I've been pretty unlucky so far... I've bought 200 of them but had to resell them all cause they were ALL males.


----------



## Food_locker71

rdk1402 said:


> Thanks for sharing Louis. Lovely! Any plans on visiting the Netherlands?
> 
> I was wondering if you have ever noticed a different sex ratio in offspring due to temperature differences (or another factor).
> 
> I breed Dario tigris myself. Here's a small group of juveniles in one of my tanks.



They're so cute! Are Tigris and Black Tiger the same? I've actually got a few, also all males. They're beautiful little guys.


----------



## rdk1402

Yes, they are the same. Dario tigris is the scientific name as of last year. 
Dario tigris and Dario melanogrammus, two new species of miniature chameleon fishes from northern Myanmar (Teleostei: Badidae) - PubMed


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


Food_locker71 said:


> I've been pretty unlucky so far... I've bought 200 of them but had to resell them all cause they were ALL males.


<"Sounds familiar">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Conort2

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> <"Sounds familiar">.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Has anyone ever got to the bottom of how so many males end up in the trade with zero females? Capture of only attractively coloured individuals? Not sure this can be the case as dull coloured males are imported frequently.

Cheers


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


Conort2 said:


> Has anyone ever got to the bottom of how so many males end up in the trade with zero females?


Not as a far as I know. It was suggested that the sex ratio, in the wild, is very heavily skewed towards males. I was always dubious, but this would seem to <"definitely refute that">. 

Because they are Percoid fish sex determination could potentially be <"temperature controlled">, which would allow a breeder to strongly skew the sex ratio and an (even more unlikely) possibility would be that they may be <"protandrous sequential hermaphrodites">.


Conort2 said:


> Capture of only attractively coloured individuals?


My guess is that they (collectors or exporters?) can tell males from females. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## fredi

It’s known that pH skews the m/f ratio in Sciaenochromis ahli, temperature also skew the ratio in some species.  I have no idea about badis


----------



## fredi

I designed an experiment for a school to demonstrate this (years ago), for a science teacher friend


----------



## Food_locker71

I've heard that the males are too aggressive with the females during transport and the few that are catched dies.


----------



## louis_last

Conort2 said:


> Has anyone ever got to the bottom of how so many males end up in the trade with zero females? Capture of only attractively coloured individuals? Not sure this can be the case as dull coloured males are imported frequently.
> 
> Cheers


I've observed a fairly even distribution of males and females in the batches of fry I've raised. If anything there's probably slightly more females than males.
One thing I did notice was that you can tell the sexes apart earlier than I expected and males will begin to show colour when they're smaller than I've usually seen them in shops. 
I have no idea what proportion of those exported from india are wild caught as opposed to farmed but I reached out to some people in India to try and learn more about them in support of my breeding attempts and they informed me that these can be found naturally in HUGE numbers and very high population densities in the wild. I think it's entirely possible that many we see in the shops have been wild caught and that females are just released to maintain the population in areas they're harvested from. This would also potentially explain the often very poor condition of shop specimens and their general refusal to feed on anything other than live food. It's not remotely difficult to get captive bred fry to accept dried decapsulated brine shrimp eggs as a staple diet.


----------



## louis_last

Food_locker71 said:


> I've heard that the males are too aggressive with the females during transport and the few that are catched dies.


I can tell you that with large numbers of them in the same tank the males behaviour is quite different. They largely abandon efforts to establish and defend a territory and pester the females far more than they do other males.
The opposite was true when I've put only two males in a tank. They would establish pretty clearly defined territories and defend them aggressively against the other male. 
I've witnessed the actual act of mating several times now and it's not unusual for females to display a black spot in  the exact same place on their body for several weeks after they have mated. It almost looks like a little black saddle that eventually fades away. I think that some of the chromatophores they use to display their black stripes during mating are just getting stuck "on" as a side effect of the reproductive act but I'm now also pretty certain that this effect serves some kind of purpose in the wild - perhaps indicating to other males that they have already mated or are no longer carrying eggs. It's always in the exact same place. 
I did consider that it could be some kind of physical injury or bruising that occurs during mating but I've also seen it develop in females immediately after a very gentle mating embrace cushioned in the roots of a floating plant.


----------



## louis_last

Let me just reiterate as well that I have confirmed pairs available for trade or enitrely free of charge if anyone is willing to collect them in person or meet me at helensburgh train station.


----------



## Food_locker71

louis_last said:


> Let me just reiterate as well that I have confirmed pairs available for trade or enitrely free of charge if anyone is willing to collect them in person or meet me at helensburgh train station.


Oh, Well, I guess need to move to the UK. ;^)


----------



## louis_last

Food_locker71 said:


> Oh, Well, I guess need to move to the UK. ;^)


If you do bring some Opheodrys vernalis and Lepidobatrachus llanensis with you and we can do a swap! You have access to so many cool species that we can't get over here.


----------



## Food_locker71

louis_last said:


> If you do bring some Opheodrys vernalis and Lepidobatrachus llanensis with you and we can do a swap! You have access to so many cool species that we can't get over here.


Ahah! Yes, these snakes are pretty cute and I never saw that frog, kinda derp! Love it.


----------



## kammaroon

A few months ago, I bought 4 "female" scarlet badis, plus a lovely coloured up male. Two of them started to get faint red specs on the sides, so I guess they are sub-dominate males. The other two remained drab grey. I moved them to a separate tank a couple of months ago to see if they would colour up. They are still grey. Hopefully, they are females.






(I might have taken the picture of the same fish twice, so hard to get close up photos)


----------



## louis_last

kammaroon said:


> A few months ago, I bought 4 "female" scarlet badis, plus a lovely coloured up male. Two of them started to get faint red specs on the sides, so I guess they are sub-dominate males. The other two remained drab grey. I moved them to a separate tank a couple of months ago to see if they would colour up. They are still grey. Hopefully, they are females.
> View attachment 199554View attachment 199555
> (I might have taken the picture of the same fish twice, so hard to get close up photos)


The first one looks female to me but that second picture looks like it could turn out to be a male. If you have males then one of the surest ways to tell would be to put it in a small tank with a male for temporary observation. Females will intermittently flash dark stripes when the males are courting them . I've never seen one that doesn't. If you didn't observe this but rather it remained uniformly greyish/transparent  then you would probably be looking at another subdominant male.
Another way you might be able to tell is by feeding more heavily for a little while. In my experience within only a few days of heavy feeding the females will become very noticeably round and fat even from a young age whereas the males don't.


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## louis_last

Just a point of clarification on the term 'sub dominant males' too - I use this term myself out of habit but it's probably not really accurate. I have maybe 50+ males right now and not one of them is grey or totally lacking in colour like we tend to see in the shops. This is either a consequence of poor health, stress and/or starvation.
The actual difference between dominant and sub dominant males is that dominant males will develop a certain amount of black colouration around their heads and eyes and perhaps marginally brighter colours but all mature males will display plenty of red and blue if they are in good health.
If anyone has a colourless badis that they've had for a while, that's eating well, and has grown while in your care, or isn't particularly small, then you can probably be pretty certain it's a female. I will try and update this thread with some more photos that show the differences better.


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## brhau

louis_last said:


> I can tell you that with large numbers of them in the same tank the males behaviour is quite different. They largely abandon efforts to establish and defend a territory and pester the females far more than they do other males.


At roughly what stocking density do they become less territorial? I have a 5, 15, and 20 long to play with for either a colony or quarantine, and am curious if there are intermediate levels of stocking that are more dangerous due to conflict. 

The reason for my question is that I can acquire a number of small D. tigris whose genders aren’t yet obvious. Trying to guess how many I should get in order to find a female, and what can safely be stocked in each size.

Cheers


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## louis_last

brhau said:


> At roughly what stocking density do they become less territorial? I have a 5, 15, and 20 long to play with for either a colony or quarantine, and am curious if there are intermediate levels of stocking that are more dangerous due to conflict.
> 
> The reason for my question is that I can acquire a number of small D. tigris whose genders aren’t yet obvious. Trying to guess how many I should get in order to find a female, and what can safely be stocked in each size.
> 
> Cheers


I'm not too sure about at exactly what density their aggression becomes significantly 'diluted' but I also have no experience with D.tigris. I have kept a dario species that was sold to me as D. hysignon 'melon red badis' and it was much more aggressive in general than I have experienced D. dario to be and the same could potentially true for D. tigris but @rdk1402 breeds these and might be able to give you a better answer.


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## brhau

Thanks. @rdk1402 recommends keeping D. tigris at very low density (one per ~7.5 gallons). I know of a local breeder who keeps a colony of 5 pairs in a 10 gallon. I just don’t know about the middle. For example, holding 6 in a 15 gallon to sex them out.

@louis_last If you had to answer the question for D. dario, what would you say? I understand it’s not the same situation.


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## louis_last

brhau said:


> Thanks. @rdk1402 recommends keeping D. tigris at very low density (one per ~7.5 gallons). I know of a local breeder who keeps a colony of 5 pairs in a 10 gallon. I just don’t know about the middle. For example, holding 6 in a 15 gallon to sex them out.
> 
> @louis_last If you had to answer the question for D. dario, what would you say? I understand it’s not the same situation.


I think the best answer I can give for D. dario is that If the males are ABLE to effectively defend a territory then they will do so quite aggressively. I think hardscape may play a role as well as stocking density. At high densities the males will still occasionally chase one another a little or display to one another but they can't focus on or bully a single fish because they are so easily distracted by females or other males coming into their field of view. 
I've often seen it advised that plenty of hardscape which breaks up lines of sight and allows them to establish independent territories helps to reduce aggression but in my experience I think the opposite may be true. I'm very far from being any sort of expert though, I was just lucky to find a female and I've been learning as I go.
The best I can do is tell you that three males in a 10 gallon tank were extremely aggressive to one another but that 15 mature males in a ten gallon demonstrate very little aggression to one another. You will know very quickly if you're stocking them at a problematic density as their territorial aggression when it manifests is not subtle and the males are more than capable of damaging one another if there's no intervention when it becomes a problem.


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## rdk1402

Hey Ben,

As I mentioned on a different forum  I don't conduct experiments with Dario tigris. They just happen to sit on top of the food chain in most of my tanks. I keep a minimal amount of fish (mostly Dario) per tank in order to preserve populations of crustaceans and nematodes in the same tank.

I believe the observation given by Louis could very well be applicable to Dario tigris.

I once had a scape (in a 1 meter tank) that had a very clear boundary in the middle, along with two males and one female. The males each owned one of the sides of the tank, perhaps due to the clear boundary in the middle, and disputes were very, very frequent.  Spawning took place in this setup. But I hated staring at the tank because of the disputes.

So I changed the scape to an island, see picture below, and added a third male (yes, for comparison, I should not have done that).  The four oftentimes group together; see picture below. I never notice any disputes ...and thus far, never noticed any breeding either.

The other remark by Louis  regarding Dario dario is one that I have read before about this fish; they aggregate in groups in the wild. Perhaps the same is true for tigris. Aggregate under conditions a,b,c, settle territories under conditions, x,b,z, etc. If I'd live a thousand years, I would probably have visited Myanmar by now and observe tigris in the wild.

Most of my tanks only have a solitary male. I seriously wonder if this is the right thing to do from the fish's perspective.









For breeding, I currently keep 1 male and 1 female in a 60cm tank.

Louis talked about a visible spot on the female. I notice the same thing on the dorsal side. Look at the white mark. It is not something permanent.


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## rdk1402

By the way, I used to have Dario dario's in the past. Apart from coloration and size, one behavioral difference I think I've noticed between the species is the following:

At least the Dario dario's I kept loved spending prolonged time amongst floating plants. Most likely for sake of ambushing certain critters. Dario tigris too are sit and wait predators, but I never find them amongst floaters. Hiding / ambushing from cave-like structures / dense bushes.


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## brhau

Thank you both.



rdk1402 said:


> Did you receive your Dario's, Ben?


Unfortunately, the lone female I planned to pick up today jumped out of its breeder's tank yesterday. He told me that he recently cleared out the tank (5 pairs in the 10 gallon) in order to access the fish more easily. My guess is that, in the absence of plants and structure, the female was chased by a male (or males) and tried to escape at the top. That leaves me in a bit of a quandary, as I've now adjusted 3 blackwater tanks for Dario conditions and have added some inverts as well.

I've contacted a few sellers who told me that their exporters won't send females, and that their fish are large enough to be sexable as likely all male. One shop says they have smaller fish that are impossible to sex, and have indeed received females in the past that their customers have bred. So one option I'm mulling is to buy 6 of those and hope that one is female. It's a risk, obviously, since the genders are likely skewed enough to greatly reduce the probability that this is the case. I think that sexing will be an exercise of trial and error. My available tank sizes are 5g (41 cm), 15g (61 cm), and 20 long (76 cm).  I have a 2.5g (30 cm) as well, but that seems too small to be of use. The 20 long would be the most difficult tank to extract fish from, since it has one large piece of spiderwood that dominates much of the volume of the tank. An older photo below (It's currently more grown in and "mulmy"). The other two tanks are configurable. My thoughts:

I could put all 6 in the 5 gallon. I assume in this scenario there would be a single dominant male, and the remaining fish would be ambiguous. I could successively remove each dominant male to the larger tanks, which would yield an acceptable final state: 1 in the 5, 2 in the 15, 3 in the 20. However, there would be an uncomfortable regime where there are 2 or 3 males in the 5 gallon.
I could put all 6 in the 15 gallon, allow some males to establish territories, and look for fish who aren't territorial AND visit the territories. However, if all 6 are male, this could become problematic rather quickly.
I could put then all in the 20, but I'd be hesitant to do so, as I'd have the least control over what happens in that scenario.
-Ben


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## louis_last

rdk1402 said:


> Hey Ben,
> 
> As I mentioned on a different forum  I don't conduct experiments with Dario tigris. They just happen to sit on top of the food chain in most of my tanks. I keep a minimal amount of fish (mostly Dario) per tank in order to preserve populations of crustaceans and nematodes in the same tank.
> 
> I believe the observation given by Louis could very well be applicable to Dario tigris.
> 
> I once had a scape (in a 1 meter tank) that had a very clear boundary in the middle, along with two males and one female. The males each owned one of the sides of the tank, perhaps due to the clear boundary in the middle, and disputes were very, very frequent.  Spawning took place in this setup. But I hated staring at the tank because of the disputes.
> 
> So I changed the scape to an island, see picture below, and added a third male (yes, for comparison, I should not have done that).  The four oftentimes group together; see picture below. I never notice any disputes ...and thus far, never noticed any breeding either.
> 
> The other remark by Louis  regarding Dario dario is one that I have read before about this fish; they aggregate in groups in the wild. Perhaps the same is true for tigris. Aggregate under conditions a,b,c, settle territories under conditions, x,b,z, etc. If I'd live a thousand years, I would probably have visited Myanmar by now and observe tigris in the wild.
> 
> Most of my tanks only have a solitary male. I seriously wonder if this is the right thing to do from the fish's perspective.
> 
> View attachment 199582
> 
> View attachment 199583
> 
> For breeding, I currently keep 1 male and 1 female in a 60cm tank.
> 
> Louis talked about a visible spot on the female. I notice the same thing on the dorsal side. Look at the white mark. It is not something permanent.
> 
> View attachment 199585


That's really fascinating that you've noticed the same thing with females being marked after pairing in D. tigris and an amazing tank too!


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## rdk1402

brhau said:


> I could put all 6 in the 5 gallon. I assume in this scenario there would be a single dominant male, and the remaining fish would be ambiguous. I could successively remove each dominant male to the larger tanks, which would yield an acceptable final state: 1 in the 5, 2 in the 15, 3 in the 20. However, there would be an uncomfortable regime where there are 2 or 3 males in the 5 gallon.


I know this is typical of Dario dario; submissive males looking (at least to humans) like females. I'm not sure if this pertains to tigris. As discussed on the other forum; temperature might play a big role also. Currently it's winter.
In the tank that has 1 male, 1 female, the male has slightly aroused colors, and male and female are living very peacefully together. ("waiting for spring to kick in"?). See image below.
In the 5 gallon highly planted tank that has 2 males, both colors are very dull. Males living peacefully together.

Again, trying to figure all of this out does not have my priority. I just take care of the two females I have. Jumping out (extremely unusual behaviour in my opinion for tigris) would be a small nightmare.

Here's an image from a few minutes ago: male and female (in the right):







brhau said:


> I could put then all in the 20, but I'd be hesitant to do so, as I'd have the least control over what happens in that scenario.


I think I'd split the 6 up in two groups, release them in the 15 and 20, and assume you'll not end up with 3 females in one group . Around 22 C / 71.5 F is where breeding behavior occurs.

Also: I don't think they are eager to predate on offspring. I don't separate the female after spawning, etc., I strongly believe there's is no brood care, but no predation either.


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## brhau

rdk1402 said:


> Also: I don't think they are eager to predate on offspring. I don't separate the female after spawning, etc., I strongly believe there's is no brood care, but no predation either.


My instinct is to separate a female, not out of fear of predation, but rather so she doesn’t overbreed or be pestered to death my an amorous male. Though I could also, as you’ve suggested, control this with temperature as well.

Cheers


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## castle

I’d be interested in a few @louis_last

could collect some in a couple of weeks?


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