# Please share your thoughts about my ph drop...



## MikeJojo (9 Jun 2014)

Hi

Please share your thoughts about my Ph drop. I'm trying to eliminate any factors that gives me some algae. This time is Co2 and if enough is pumped in?

I know there is this idea of ideally having 1 degree Ph drop which tells you that you pump just right amount of Co2 but it is not always the case with high Kh right? 

So my readings are as follow:

8 am - Ph 7.1 (Co2 on)
9 am - Ph 6.8
10 am - Ph 6.8
11 am - Ph 6.8
12 am - Ph 6.8
1 pm - Ph 6.6 (lights on)
2 pm - Ph 6.6
3 pm - Ph 6.6
4 pm - Ph 6.6
5 pm - Ph 6.6
6 pm - Ph 6.4 (Co2 off)
7 pm - Ph 6.5
8 pm - Ph 6.5 (lights off)

What do you think? I wonder if I could do anything to let me switch Co2 later and if I should switch Co2 at 5pm so Ph stay at 6.6.

My Kh is 12 and Gh is 18.

Regards

Mike


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## Tim Harrison (9 Jun 2014)

Seriously...if I had a £ for every time this was worried about... I have seriously hard water too, my pH drops from around 7.4 - 6.8/6.6 and I've had no issues whatsoever...I figure that so long as your drop checker is lime green with 4dKH solution at lights on till lights out there is no need to worry.


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## MikeJojo (9 Jun 2014)

I though so but in this aquatic world of unknowns everyone needs some second opinion )) Looks that Co2 goes well. 


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## MikeJojo (9 Jun 2014)

Forgot to say thanks 


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## tim (9 Jun 2014)

Looking at your profile though, I'd say you can increase injection rate or improve distribution 5 hours pre lights could be improved on, IMO make your adjustments slowly over say a couple of weekends if you can't increase the injection rate it is probably a flow/distribution of flow issue.


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## Tim Harrison (9 Jun 2014)

Missed that...


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## MikeJojo (9 Jun 2014)

I know it takes ages to get to Ph 6.6 at lights on but it's just my hard water I think. I use Ista Reactor and diffusion is really great. I was thinking about increasing rate, moving co2 on at 9-10am and see what drop that gives me. At the end switch co2 off earlier as well to keep up stable ph/co2 till lights off. How does that sound?


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## tim (9 Jun 2014)

Well I use good old London tap, which is hard water  normally run my co2 on 2-3 hours before lights on and off 1-2 hours before lights off depending on tank and I always have a lime green d/c at lights on though this can be misleading if using inline atomisers IMO, reactors I've not used so can't comment, I believe making changes slowly whilst monitoring livestock is best to keep livestock happy, eventually you will hit that sweet spot. Try the increase in rate with the shorter injection period, just keep one eye on your livestock that's been my approach.


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## parotet (10 Jun 2014)

I have even a harder water than yours and I do the same as Tim does: co2 on 2 hours before lights on and co2 off one hour before lights off. I can hardly reach a pH drop of 1 unit, even now that I have optimized the diffusion using an inline atomizer, a spraybar all along the back of the tank and running the co2 at 3 bps... Just for a 65 liters, that looks like a lot of gas to most of people (I mean this bubble rate using an inline atomizer for such a small tank) but this way I can get a nice lime green from the very beginning of the light period. Nice surface rippling ensures that my fish are also happy with this setup.

Jordi


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## MikeJojo (11 Jun 2014)

I've turned up bps but I'm still worried if my fish will be ok. Bps I have now is kind of safe limit when my fish do not gasp and go to the surface. Hopefully this time it will be better as I cleaned all hose, filter, aquarium and plants out off any algae. Cleaner water means more oxygen right? So maybe co2/o2 balance will be better now. Fingers crossed. 

One more question. If I turned up bps my Ph will drop even more. What is safe limit? What ph you guys have at most Co2 concentration?



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## parotet (11 Jun 2014)

You will have to test it by yourself. Each tank is different so it is impossible to tell if a particular setup will work.
Just watch carefully your fish... IME each time I though I had fine tuned my tanks there was still room for improvements, so do small changes and just see how it works.

Jordi


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## MikeJojo (11 Jun 2014)

Parotet what's your lowest Ph during Co2 injection?


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## parotet (11 Jun 2014)

Hi MikeJojo

I have managed to go from pH 7.1 to pH 6.2 and then keep it there during the light period. To get this 0.9 pH drop I've had to do a lot of improvements: adjust bps, change to spraybar, empty half of the canister media, switch on the co2 2 hours before light and even reorganize the hardware decoration in my tank that improved in a very relevant way the flow all over my tank. Every little detail is important. My water must be above kH above 15, probably more, but honestly never measured (i only use tap water and I got a significant limescale built up in about 3 days which can be only removed using a razor... Liquid rock!). The only test I made to my tap water was about total hardness (the washing machine technician forgot his water test at home) and the GH measured was 25. I live surrounded by limestone mountains.

Jordi


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## MikeJojo (11 Jun 2014)

Thank you parotet 


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## Claire (12 Jun 2014)

Don't worry about your ph going too low - my ph drops to about 5 during co2 injection. I have never had any problem with fish at this ph, in fact the opposite - they enjoy the low ph and I have had barbs and tetras spawn at lights on period when ph is lowest.


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## MikeJojo (12 Jun 2014)

That sounds optimistic. Thanks Claire 


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## ian_m (12 Jun 2014)

You need to read this table of CO2 ppm vs dKH (from here http://tropica.com/en/guide/make-your-aquarium-a-success/fertiliser-and-co2/)




 

Thus with your dKH of 12 and aiming to get 30ppm CO2 you need a final pH 7.2.

However couple of major issues, your water is obviously not following this table due to other unknown causes, dead plants/fish, limestone, substrate etc. Also dKH test kits don't actually measure dKH but pH (alkalinity) and are prone to great error and even more compounded by your water, so measuring the pH & dKH is a leading you down the path to poor CO2, poor plants but probably great algae.

Just use a drop checker (like everyone else does) as that is completely isolated from all the goings on in the tank and will give you an accurate CO2 reading.

If you are using RO water that your have remineralised yourself, so are in control of water quality (and nothing in the tank eg limestone rock etc is liable to affect hardness) then pH measurement is a great way to determine CO2 level, but for all of use using tap water, drop checker is the correct way to do it.


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## MikeJojo (14 Jun 2014)

I've increased my co2 and it's at 6.6 at lights on and 6.4 at lights off now. To achieve 6.4 through out whole photo period I assume I need set co2 on 1 hour earlier than it is now. Question - if I increase co2 a little bit more again would it start at 6.4 and stay at that level until lights off or it will probably go further down to 6.2?

I just wonder if the more concentration of co2 the more resistant ph is to change? What's your experience guys?

Mike


Forgot to mention that my co2 goes now on at 10am and off still at 5pm. That 3hrs delay of switching it on balanced increased injection I think. What will work better? Switching it on 9am to achieve desirable saturation at lights on or increasing co2 even more?


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## parotet (14 Jun 2014)

Hi MikeJojo, theoretically I would be enough to switch the co2 two hours before lights on, even on very hard water. What I found is that it is a combination of several variables what makes your setup be fine tuned. 
Have a look to this thread: http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/...ys-green-and-aquasoil-any-relationship.30946/.This is a short version of how I managed to do it for my tank... You will be able to see that very small changes had sometimes significant results. In a few words, play with every little detail (improve flow, distribution, plants position, good o2/co2, etc.) and of course with the bubble rate. Nevertheless IMO bubble rate must be your last bullet. Try to optimize your setup with the rest of issues... Your fish will be safer and you will save a lot of gas.

Jordi


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## parotet (14 Jun 2014)

Concerning the co2 concentration stability, there is a very interesting thread I cannot find discussing this issue. As fas as I remember Plantbrain explains how to achieve this stable co2 plateau using some figures as examples. Very interesting reading also about the importance of having both high co2 levels combined with high o2 levels (surface rippling, wet/dry filters)

Edit: Got it! Here's the one I mentioned: http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/co2-ph-level-in-planted-tank.26559/
And this is one of my favorite websites about planted tanks, done by a UKAPS' member: http://www.prirodni-akvarium.cz/en/index.php?id=en_co2ph. Plenty of good information and a good example of pH readings according to different setups.

Jordi


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## MikeJojo (24 Jun 2014)

Here is a little update. 

I've managed to get my Ph at 6.4 at lights on from 6.8 at co2 on. I was using Ista Max Mix large reactor before and the lowest I could get was 6.6. Now I added inline atomizer just before reactor and it's indeed some improvement. I could decrease bps while using atomizer and reactor together. When I was using reactor only I could not count bubbles in my slow motion recorder iphone app, it was so much bps. Now I went from 5bps to 6.5bps as for today but what concerns my is why going from 5 to 6.5 bps doesn't lower my Ph beyond 6.4? It stays there like rock... :-/


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## parotet (24 Jun 2014)

Hi MikeJojo,

0.4 pH drop is not very much, it should be something more even with hard water... and 6.5 bps using an atomizer is a lot of CO2. It looks like you have to improve other aspects. What about improving the outlet position/system and maximize the flow all over the tank? Is there room for this?
A pic of your setup might help to have some clues...

Jordi


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## MikeJojo (24 Jun 2014)

This is my setup. 









I wondered if right outflow pipe end in shape of lily pipe would improve flow. 

This is my filter setup in case if you want to have a look at it as well. 









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## parotet (24 Jun 2014)

Can you see bubbles reaching the surface? Is the water misty while the co2 is on? How many hours before lights do you switch on the co2?
Not bad idea to experiment with the outflow... Try another position and then try a cheap DIY spraybar and test the pH drop again. In my case changing to a spraybar was a very significant change (although my hardscape was much more complex)

Another thing... Have you noticed variations in the bubble rate? This can be a leak... Brushing with soapy water in every potential leak place (from cylinder to outflow) should be enough to detect it.

Jordi


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## MikeJojo (24 Jun 2014)

I see bubbles reaching surface and actually there is pretty much film a like made out of those tiny bubbles. 

Water is misty during whole photoperiod and co2 is on 3hrs before lights. 

I used to have diy spray bar but I cannot say if it was better. I went for single output just because it takes less space in tank.

Do you mean variation during a day or from day to day? As far as I know there was no leak when I checked it last time. 

Thank you parotet. 


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## X3NiTH (24 Jun 2014)

parotet said:


> http://www.prirodni-akvarium.cz/en/index.php?id=en_co2ph. Plenty of good information and a good example of pH readings according to different setups.



Good information but the second last sentence makes no sense, 'Aeration using an air stone has [despite the widespread myth] virtually no effect on CO2 degassing.'

This is precisely the solution I use to allow me to balance my co2 levels. 

My DIY reactor gives me 100% co2 dissolution but because I'm using a canister and not a wet/dry filter my O2 saturation drops due to the small surface area of my tank (28L) and the fish aren't able to tolerate the level I need to get to for my drop checker to go green/yellow, so by lights off the fish are all at the surface. I then introduced an air stone at lights off to degas the co2 quickly and hopefully add some O2 before lights on again. I have been using a pH controller with my gas set at a level so that I go from 6.8-5.5 in two hours before lights on and the controller switches the gas off, but its not low enough to turn the drop checker green/yellow without the fish gasping. At a rate of injection to get that drop in the two hours before lights on, my solenoid was only ever open for about 3 hours total after lights on out of a 10 hour photoperiod, co2 degassed that slowly, add aeration at lights off and the pH climbed 0.5 in about an hour and fish became active again. 

Cue aeration 24/7 and an increase in co2 injection rate (approx x3). Gas comes on same 2hrs before lights on and the pH rapidly drops from 6.8 to 6 in 15mins but due to the aeration it tails off and only finally makes it to 5.4 by the time the lights come on. This ensures the drop checker is the correct shade of green to be nearest the 30ppm level. To ensure that my off gassing rate and injection rate balance to keep me around 5.4 (the variance in my controller will close the solenoid at 5.31) I can either fiddle with my needle valve or adjust the amount of aeration, I did both. I added a flow clamp on the air line and dialled down the aeration injection first before I touched the needle valve on the co2, it was then a case of fine tuning both over a few days to get the sweet spot. I'm now using aeration with an air stone to control my off gassing and not touching the needle valve at all, I'm chewing through gas for the entire photoperiod without the solenoid being triggered to close.

So judging by my observed experience that's why that statement makes no sense to me. The air stone is increasing the area that my tank water can make contact with air beyond what my tanks surface area alone can without aeration. It is also providing a surface agitation, but not much more than my 900lph filter is putting out so my observed effects can't just be down to minor increases in surface agitation. The best method for aeration is a wet/dry filter, which is water crashing through an air interface. An air stone is air crashing through a water interface.

The key is to ensure you have enough O2 in the water relative to the amount of co2 you inject, then you can stop worrying about the fish and concentrate on making sure the plants get what they need. I needed to use more co2 to ensure I have enough O2 in my tank, crazy but true, but now the fish don't care!

My KH is probably close to zero, and I'm off the charts, but my pH drop still correlates to the charts.


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## parotet (25 Jun 2014)

I totally agree... Also IMO good O2 levels during night and day are as important as CO2. In my case the water surface is much higher than yours. I use a spraybar and I began with a light rippling but I have noticed very good results when the rippling is much more significant (I can see microwaves) and all over the surface. I use a canister so it is the only way I have to ensure a high O2 exchange.

Jordi


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## parotet (25 Jun 2014)

A short video of my surface rippling
https://www.flickr.com/photos/119257234@N07/14479574096/


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## X3NiTH (25 Jun 2014)

Yeah the addition of extra O2 at night is crucial, before I used the airstone I was probably seeing the cumulative effect of O2 being used up at night and not being replaced quick enough during the day through photosynthesis, leading to an o2 shortfall by next lights on and by mid afternoon the fish are gasping after depleting the O2 relative to the amount of co2 being injected, even aerating only at night was not enough, gas transfer has to happen 24/7.

That's quite vigorous surface agitation, those large crested deep trough ripples will be adding a massive amount of additional surface area that water can be in contact with air.


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## MikeJojo (3 Jul 2014)

So... I went for spray bar again and now I have much better flow around tank and also surface agitation is much more. Now there is a question. Before I used that single pipe outlet and Ph drop was from 6.8 to 6.4. Now using spray bar and having more surface agitation I'm degassing my water to the point that Ph goes from 7.6 to 6.8 at lights on. Ph drop is more significant but does it mean it's more Co2 in water than before? IMHO not really... I just degassed it more over night. Virtually I have the same amount Co2 dissolved in water right?

So what's the point of trying to achieve 1 Ph drop if it all depends on what's your starting Ph is?

Please clarify me on this. 

Mike




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## parotet (3 Jul 2014)

Hi Mike



MikeJojo said:


> Ph drop is more significant but does it mean it's more Co2 in water than before? IMHO not really


I agree with you. CO2 levels are very difficult to measure in a tank and pH drop is just a rough estimation. Moreover this pH readings can be different everyday (plants grow...), can be affected by other issues and are not probably that accurate (if you do not have a high quality pHmeter). Not an expert but nothing can be said regarding CO2 concentration just with this.



MikeJojo said:


> So what's the point of trying to achieve 1 Ph drop if it all depends on what's your starting Ph is?


Well... what this new pH drop is telling you is that you are degassing more your water column, which in my opinion is the optimal situation. The point is that this way you are stabilizing your CO2 levels at lights on (what your plants like, algae spores won't Bloom = stability) and your fish won't be so stressed. In other words you are reaching high Co2 levels combined with high O2 levels (folks do it like you, that is managing the gas exchange in the water surface, or using wet/dry filters). Now the point is to let this configuration run like this for a long time so plants' physiology can be re-adapted to this new situation and grow healthy.

Jordi


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## MikeJojo (3 Jul 2014)

Thanks Jordi. 

It seems pretty good then. It also means that probably I was injecting just right amount of co2 before achieving Ph 6.8-6.4 (depend on configuration) but drop was just little as there was still plenty co2 in water in the morning because not much degassed. 

Here comes my statement of hope - my algae problem wasn't due to not enough co2 but to not enough circulation which I have now using spray bar. Fingers crossed this is it!  

I felt hopeless before as I could not go lower than 6.4 to achieve nice Ph drop. I was in dead spot thinking, Man! You cannot gas more!


Mike


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