# If I were to add a chunk of iron to the tank...



## castle (21 May 2021)

You know, let us say a 50 pence piece size of iron ore, would that slowly release iron to the tank? 

I could swear, I was told as a kid to add an iron nail to my aquariums...


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## zozo (21 May 2021)

No, it doesn't at least not useable for any plants... Raw iron only oxidizes which is rust, Iron Oxide... It doesn't do harm nor any good...

From the top of my head, I don't know the exact iron composition which the plants need and or can take up. But when it comes to raw iron it can only be anaerobically converted into something useable and this is something that doesn't happen easily in an aquarium. As soon as oxygen is in play iron will only rust and do zip. And water saturates with oxygen... 

Very maybe if you have a deep substrate tank with anaerobic pockets containing iron it might... But who has this?

Thus the Iron nail thing is an Urban Myth thing, probably derived from the gardening hobby...  But aquatic gardening indoor is something entirely different.


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## dw1305 (21 May 2021)

Hi all, 


castle said:


> You know, let us say a 50 pence piece size of iron ore, would that slowly release iron to the tank?


Probably not. If it was in the water column it would slowly oxidise to ferric (hydr) oxides ("Rust"). 


> _Rust consists of hydrous iron(III) oxides (Fe2O3·nH2O) and iron(III) oxide-hydroxide (FeO(OH), Fe(OH)3), and is typically associated with the corrosion of refined iron._


If it was buried in the substrate, in anaerobic conditions, it wouldn't rust, but mainly it wouldn't become ions either.

cheers Darrel


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## castle (21 May 2021)

I did think it would oxidise, but still wondered - thanks @zozo / @dw1305


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## Tim Harrison (21 May 2021)

I've often wondered about that. Way back when I first started with dirted planted tanks, it wasn't common to add fertz or even use nutrient rich substrate (just gravel). I used Irish Moss Peat capped with gravel. I noticed my Amazon Swords were suffering some sort of deficiency, after some research I diagnosed iron deficiency.

Thinking laterally I placed a couple of rusty 6 inch nails under the plant roots and within a matter of weeks the new leaves where vigorous and green. So anecdotally at least it seemed to work for me. 

I have to admit that water chemistry is not my forte, but is it possible that an acid environment will help turn iron oxide into a soluble form plants can use?

Perhaps this paper has some relevance also?









						Review on iron availability in soil: interaction of Fe minerals, plants, and microbes - Journal of Soils and Sediments
					

Purpose The rationale of this paper is to review the state of the art regarding the biotic and abiotic reactions that can influence Fe availability in soils. In soil, the management-induced change from oxic to anoxic environment results in temporal and spatial variations of redox reactions...




					link.springer.com


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## ceg4048 (22 May 2021)

zozo said:


> Thus the Iron nail thing is an Urban Myth thing, probably derived from the gardening hobby... But aquatic gardening indoor is something entirely different.





dw1305 said:


> Probably not. If it was in the water column it would slowly oxidise to ferric (hydr) oxides ("Rust").


This is not true. It would only be true if the nail were made of stainless steel.
Old iron nails will rust and as Tim's reference indicates plants harbor and develop certain microbes that convert the ferric oxide to ferrous, which is more bioavailable. This is an aerobic process and the plants send oxygen down to the roots which gets released into the sediment to help these and other microbes grow. In fact, if you examine laterite clay, which was so popular with hobbyists years ago, you will see that is contains predominantly ferric iron. Plants have no trouble dealing with ferric iron. It just takes a little longer.

This is THE reason that folks really should not worry about which chelation is used in their iron mixtures. Whatever precipitates settle into the substrate become targets of these same microbes, so the plants will get their iron in the same way they extract it from iron rich clay. There is an entire cottage industry surrounding iron chelation, which is just another software module found in The Matrix.

Cheers,


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## zozo (22 May 2021)

Tim Harrison said:


> So anecdotally at least it seemed to work for me.





ceg4048 said:


> Old iron nails will rust and as Tim's reference indicates plants harbor and develop certain microbes that convert the ferric oxide to ferrous, which is more bioavailable.



OK! Thank you  then I obviously was remembering some rather obsolete old papers that stated that iron oxide is useless for plants and that it only could be biologically converted by anaerobic microbes.

I know some gardeners claim to put rusty nails at the roots of some plant sp. to make them grow a different colored flower.
And I know that this isn't always the case and thought referring to that obsolete paper i did read once. it might be the type of soil and its density making it fail or succeed.

Good to know that I can forget about it...


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## PARAGUAY (22 May 2021)

I had heard of this rusty nail thingy but because of all the marketing products we have today reads a bit like what we once described as an "old wives tale "bit like tellin a 18 yr old about home made nettle beer or tea😄


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## Courtneybst (22 May 2021)

PARAGUAY said:


> I had heard of this rusty nail thingy but because of all the marketing products we have today reads a bit like what we once described as an "old wives tale "bit like tellin a 18 yr old about home made nettle beer or tea😄


Add some broken clay pots to your substrate for extra drainage 😉😅


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## dw1305 (22 May 2021)

Hi all, 


ceg4048 said:


> This is an aerobic process and the plants send oxygen down to the roots which gets released into the sediment to help these and other microbes grow. In fact, if you examine laterite clay, which was so popular with hobbyists years ago, you will see that is contains predominantly ferric iron. Plants have no trouble dealing with ferric iron. It just takes a little longer.


<"I agree">, the issue for me is that I'm using the <"Duckweed Index"> as an indication of nutrient level and deficiency and what happens in the sediment only becomes relevant if those iron ions (Fe++/Fe+++) are subsequently available in the water column.  It needs to be a plant with the <"aerial advantage"> for the Duckweed Index to exclude CO2 availability.  

If you used a <"rooted emergent plant">, as your canary, it would be better, but more difficult for a lot of people to accommodate in their aquariums.

cheers Darrel


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## ceg4048 (23 May 2021)

zozo said:


> OK! Thank you  then I obviously was remembering some rather obsolete old papers that stated that iron oxide is useless for plants and that it only could be biologically converted by anaerobic microbes.
> 
> I know some gardeners claim to put rusty nails at the roots of some plant sp. to make them grow a different colored flower.
> And I know that this isn't always the case and thought referring to that obsolete paper i did read once. it might be the type of soil and its density making it fail or succeed.
> ...


Hi Marcel,
                 Yes this is a problem in The Matrix. We often cannot tell what is real and what is an illusion.
Check this out. you can buy what is essentially powdered rust as a trace element. I used to use this stuff from this vendor all the time: Gardens Direct Ferric
It was fine. I never had a problem with iron deficiency. Certainly a lot more efficient than a rusty nail, but less efficient than simply using the ferrous product. 


dw1305 said:


> <"I agree">, the issue for me is that I'm using the <"Duckweed Index"> as an indication of nutrient level and deficiency and what happens in the sediment only becomes relevant if those iron ions (Fe++/Fe+++) are subsequently available in the water column. It needs to be a plant with the <"aerial advantage"> for the Duckweed Index to exclude CO2 availability.


Fair point Darrel. Yes, rusty nails buried in the substrate wouldn't help non-rooted plants.

Cheers,


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## three-fingers (23 May 2021)

I remember looking on eBay for antique (non-stainless steel) nails after reading a similar discussion on UKAPS in the past.  In the thread I remember, somebody had jokingly pointed out that this is basically what ADA sell with a very high mark-up 🤣. If I ever considered doing a Walstad tank with soil and no water changes, I would probably throw a few old iron nails in the substrate anwway. (Not that I would consider a Walstad-style tank in 2021 though).


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## zozo (26 May 2021)

ceg4048 said:


> Yes this is a problem in The Matrix. We often cannot tell what is real and what is an illusion.


I remember as a kid finding an old pocketbook with technical data from the early 1960s while exploring grandpa's attic and I noticed it had the distance of a Lightyear wrong as we know it today. I believe this kept changing over the centuries a few times till we settled on a fixed number somewhere in the 1980s. 

I guess a lot of what we think we know is more based upon opinions, assumptions, and hearsay.


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## Tim Harrison (26 May 2021)

zozo said:


> I noticed it had the distance of a Lightyear wrong as we know it today. I believe this kept changing over the centuries a few times till we settled on a fixed number somewhere in the 1980s.


Haha, the fixed constant, another dogmatic assumption that inhibits further enquiry. Sort of the subject of my favorite "banned" Ted Lecture...


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## zozo (26 May 2021)

Tim Harrison said:


> Haha, the fixed constant, another dogmatic assumption that inhibits further enquiry. Sort of the subject of my favorite "banned" Ted Lecture...



I once did a very interesting experimental reply on a forums science section where the discussion was about the big bang theory. I replied with this discussion is the next best example of why there people exist claiming that science is a religion.
Because this whole theory is merely based upon belief as many other theories are till proven otherwise and then the belief changes again to some other hypothesis.

And that for me as for many other non-scientists it can't be much more than a belief. Since all, non-scientists can do is read a science book and assume all that's in it is true.

Then the bottom line conclusion only can be, it is all about believing.

Making this reply simply was a scientific experiment for me, throwing the bat into the hen house.  And it proved that I predicted the correct outcome.  I was completely idiotized with flaming counter replies. They were inviting me to counteract this again to finally get banned from that forum.  Again proof that science and religion definitively are related.


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## Tim Harrison (26 May 2021)

Belief and faith are strange things. My son's religious education teacher enjoys a lively debate and they discuss all sorts in her lesson.  On this particular occasion they were discussing extra terrestrials. It was her considered opinion that ET doesn't exist. When asked why, her determined answer was because she hadn't seen one and she didn't believe in anything she hasn't seen for herself.

My son thought this was hilarious coming from an RE teacher and devout christian who believes in God. She failed to see the irony...

Reminds me of my favourite Douglas Adams quote...

"I refuse to prove that I exist,'" says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.”


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## zozo (26 May 2021)

Considering God created this earth and men on it in his image, so he can't be from this earth, and therefore whatever he is, he must be extraterrestrial by definition.


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## Tim Harrison (26 May 2021)

And I guess he must have paid her a personal visit, since she doesn't believe in anything she hasn't seen...


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## zozo (26 May 2021)

Maybe he did spiritually?.. And only does this when you really have faith... This actually is a pretty good show-stopping argument towards someone who isn't indoctrinated to have it.

Anyway, about faith, and



Tim Harrison said:


> My son's religious education teacher enjoys a lively debate and they discuss all sorts in her lesson.



I would wish to be in school again and have such a teacher...  I don't know anybody who's religious but I have a burning question since I watched this movie. I guess only a religious person can explain its ending from their viewpoint... IMHO it's rather very Lurid and it kinda got me thinking and it baffled me. Is it a religious movie or a horror movie?









						The Miracle of Marcelino (1955) - IMDb
					

The Miracle of Marcelino: Directed by Ladislao Vajda. With Rafael Rivelles, Antonio Vico, Juan Calvo, José Marco Davó. Marcelino is an orphan who grows up in a monastery. One day when he eats his small meal in a room full of old things, he gives a piece of his bread to an old wooden Jesus...




					www.imdb.com
				




Might be something for your son and all his classmates to watch it together with the teacher and discuss it afterward. About its ending, how so, and why?

In Spain, this is considered a cult movie, and everybody a tad religious knows it.

Spoiler alert! don't read this below if you want to watch it.

Summary​Marcelino is an orphan who grows up in a monastery. One day when he eats his small meal in a room full of old things he gives a piece of his bread to an old wooden Jesus figure - and indeed it takes the bread and eats it. Getting a wish granted for his donation Marcelino wishes to see his mother...

And God kills this lovely todller...


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## Tim Harrison (26 May 2021)

I guess it's allegorical. Marcelino lives on in heaven with his mother et. al.


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## zozo (26 May 2021)

Tim Harrison said:


> I guess it's allegorical. Marcelino lives on in heaven with his mother et. al.



Then this would make all life on this planet meaningless after all? And dead is all there is?...

We all rather should die at birth than and cut the crap?


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## dcurzon (26 May 2021)

Would God put an iron nail in his aquarium?


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## zozo (26 May 2021)

dcurzon said:


> Would God put an iron nail in his aquarium?


Well, he did put a few in his son, so why not in his aquarium?.. Let us hope he's smart enough not to use a hammer.


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## sparkyweasel (26 May 2021)

Are the rivers and seas God's aquariums? Perhaps His followers think something bigger than a nail is needed and that's why some people throw old bicycles and shopping trolleys in.


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