# Base Layer: Tropica Aquacare or ADA Powersand special?



## NeilW (11 Apr 2010)

Hello  

Was after some opinions.  I currently have a bag of Tropica Aquacare I could use as a base layer in my new nano but while I had the opportunity I was wondering if Powersand Special was worth the monies?

Cheers
-Neil


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## andyh (11 Apr 2010)

*Re: Base Later: Tropica Aquacare or ADA Powersand special?*

I have had great success with the ADA powersand special, in every tank i have used it in (3 of my own, plus 3 others i have helped with)

My only comment with the Tropica aquacare is that you have to cap it really well, otherwise it can release a dust cloud like you have never seen, and its very hard to get rid of once this happens.


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## nry (11 Apr 2010)

Ditto on the Tropica and clouds, you have to be very careful when moving plants.  Never used ADA stuff to compare though.


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## zig (11 Apr 2010)

The Tropica substrate does not contain any nutrients whereas the power sand does, it contains mainly KNO3 AFAIR, thats why people have success with it.


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## George Farmer (11 Apr 2010)

I used both successfully.  More important, in my experience, is the top layer.

The potential clouding issue with the Tropica may be a concern if you plan on re-scaping your layout regularly, especially if you're using big rooters like crypts.  However, unless you're performing a massive overhaul, then regular uprooting of the odd plant followed by a decent water change will clear up the clouding no problem.

Power Sand Special is basically peat-covered pumice granules.  The 'Special' bit is the extras i.e. Bacter 100, Tourmaline BC and Clear Super.  The peat provides lots of nutrients and the hard pumice allows for greater oxygen penetration down there.  The other products claim to add bacteria, extra trace elements, and toxin removal.  I have to say that in combination with ADA Aqua Soil Amazonia I have never experienced such impressive plant growth rate and health.  This is purely anecdotal evidence, of course.

Tropica Plant Substrate is a clay-based product with high CEC (cation exchange capacity) that basically is the ability to take in nutrients from the water column, making them available to the roots.  It turns to a mud-like substance as soon as water is added, and as mentioned it will cloud the water if it's disturbed.  It may be advisable to cap it well, but I have only covered my latest set-up with Tropica  topped with just a flat 4cm of other substrates (EcoComplete, Unipac black and Flourite Black mixed).

Before we get into a big, "is ADA worth the extra cash?" then it's important to know what your top layer is.

If it's ADA Aqua Soil then I'd consider the Power Sand Special.

If it's another type, then I'd go for Tropica.

They both work well, but if you're going for the ADA system, then it can be a go idea to go the 'whole hog', IME.  The results cannot be denied.

I hope that helps.


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## NeilW (11 Apr 2010)

Excellent, thank you for the helpful replies of your experiences.

My top layer will be Columbo Flora-Base.

I am currently using the Tropica stuff capped with Oliver Knott NS but dose TPN+ regularly so the lack of nutrients wasn't an issue, but this new tank I plan on running low-tech in the long-term so was after a bit of extra 'punch'.  I'll be going for a couple of varieties of Crypts so this could act as a 'safety net' of available nutrients.     

The clouding issue I found out through hard experience.  Definitely not a pretty picture.  Fortunately with a large water change and the high turnover of my filter it worked out OK.

Would Powersand special still be suitable to use with Columbo Flora-Base if I'm feeling particularly flush?

Thanks again
-Neil


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## Becca (11 Apr 2010)

Just to say this thread is really interesting to a 'know-nothing' like me. Following it with interest    

Becca


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## NeilW (18 Apr 2010)

Been looking at quite a few setups that just use the Flora Base straight with no base layer with good results.  In my intended low-tech nano do you guys think it would still be worth it to go in for the Powersand?

Cheers
-Neil


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## Garuf (19 Apr 2010)

Tom Barr often says no and he has content write ups to quote so I can only say to you that it's not worth it. Tropica would be my choice but it's not needed. I wish I could read the soil sample data, my barr report subscription is long since expired.


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## plantbrain (20 Apr 2010)

Osmocoat seems to the best long term option, no cloud, no tacky pulling up pumice gravel later on, no mixing etc, if you want a base layer, and want nutrients, this is the way to go.

ADA aqua soil is a good all in one product, there's little need to add powersand.

This works on it's own,I suppose as a base layer if you like 2 part soils, buyt unless you use the top sand for aesthetics only, then might as well just use 100% ADA AS.

I see no good reason to use ADA power SAND.

I know aqua soil came out long after power sand, guess they wanna keep selling stuff they already have but after a month or less, there's not much left, and then it's a tacky mess waiting to happen. I like to reuse sediment later, ADA As last a long time, drops in N, but that's about it, the rest stays put, the powersand is all gone, everything, in less than a month or so.

It's your money getting washed away :idea: 

You know I'm not anti ADA either, I'm promoting one, but not another.
It's what I use personally too.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## NeilW (20 Apr 2010)

Thanks very much Tom, useful stuff indeed.

I think thats made up my mind.  I'll be using the Flora-Base (a similar aquasoil product) with a sprinkling of osmocote if I can get hold of some.  

Cheers
-Neil


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## dw1305 (20 Apr 2010)

Hi all, Plantbrain wrote: 





> Osmocote seems to the best long term option, no cloud, no tacky pulling up pumice gravel later on, no mixing etc, if you want a base layer, and want nutrients, this is the way to go.


 I'd go with that as well. I know that some people won't agree with me, but I don't think there is any "magic bullet" with substrates in terms of effectiveness.  If you have the combinations of nutrients and CEC, your plants will grow, after that it is really all down to aesthetics. 

One of the advantage of Osmocote is that it isn't all instantly soluble, so instead of getting a big pulse of nutrients in solution, (which may exceed the CEC & Anion Exchange Capacity of your substrate) it is a controlled release over time. Another advantage is that  you know how much of each nutrient you added, rather than estimating from the breakdown of organic matter, or the amount of fertiliser in your John Innes no. 3. etc.

cheers Darrel


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## NeilW (20 Apr 2010)

Sounds like good stuff.  

Just had a thought: does osmocote contain any nasties that don't agree with Red Bee shrimp (being sensitive as they are)?  

Also would the 'Clear Super' and 'Bacter 100' goodies contained in the Special make it worth it?


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## dw1305 (21 Apr 2010)

Hi all,


> does osmocote contain any nasties that don't agree with Red Bee shrimp


 I've not kept Bee shrimps in tanks with Osmocote in the substrate, but the slow release nature of it should mean that you won't get a big release of ammonia even if the nitrogen source is ammonium nitrate. This is also the reason for having a substrate component with high CEC, it will act as a buffer, absorbing nutrients when they are in excess, and potentially exchanging them later for other ions.

I may depend which formulations of Osmocote you can source easily, but some are meant to have very long nutrient release times (although these won't be as long in the tank).

<http://www.scottsprofessional.co.uk/uk/osmocote-exact.html> possibly <http://www.scottsprofessional.co.uk/uk/standard-high-k-12-14-months.html>

cheers Darrel


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## NeilW (21 Apr 2010)

dw1305 said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> 
> 
> > does osmocote contain any nasties that don't agree with Red Bee shrimp
> ...



Thanks Darrel, that sounds pretty safe.  If I pass the garden centre I'll grab some but I'll try and find the slowest release I can   

In the 'ideal' Japanese breeding setup for CRS they don't add any ferts so I'm guessing in the planted tank any fertiliser is a risk vs. compromise.


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## magpie (19 May 2010)

Can I hook onto the end of this  thread and ask how much Osmocote you use - how thickly you spread it?  The links above were for 25Kg bags which seems a vast amount even for a pretty big tank (unless it's a ready alternative to lead weights... )

thanks

m


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## Kosh42-EFG (19 May 2010)

I'm sure its meant to be a tiny amount... Something like 5g per square foot... I could be wrong...


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## plantbrain (19 May 2010)

dw1305 said:
			
		

> Hi all, Plantbrain wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree with ya.
100%.



> One of the advantage of Osmocote is that it isn't all instantly soluble, so instead of getting a big pulse of nutrients in solution, (which may exceed the CEC & Anion Exchange Capacity of your substrate) it is a controlled release over time. Another advantage is that  you know how much of each nutrient you added, rather than estimating from the breakdown of organic matter, or the amount of fertiliser in your John Innes no. 3. etc. cheers Darrel



We used it many years ago, maybe in the 1980's or so here in the USA, but then a new crop of folks come along.......they do not look at what is been done and think it's all new. In the AGA alone, there where dozens of folks that used it.

Some moved more to water column only, I did most to study and look at the water column as a model system to test nutrients/algae. Satisfied with the test, I returned back to sediment source. Now adding sediment + Water column= a very good synergistic method that has the highest level of resiliency/is easy for folks.

No good reason not to add/consider a sediment source. My aesthetics warrant ADA AS alone, nice all in one product that loads with nutrients and is nice looking, easy to move around, move from tank to tank etc and I know what depletes over time in it and other clay soils.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (19 May 2010)

NeilW said:
			
		

> Sounds like good stuff.
> 
> Just had a thought: does osmocote contain any nasties that don't agree with Red Bee shrimp (being sensitive as they are)?
> 
> Also would the 'Clear Super' and 'Bacter 100' goodies contained in the Special make it worth it?



No, adding plenty of plants and allowing a 2-3 weeks or time to pass prior to adding the shrimp, should be fine.
Plant and bacteria will keep the NH4 down.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (19 May 2010)

NeilW said:
			
		

> dw1305 said:
> 
> 
> 
> > In the 'ideal' Japanese breeding setup for CRS they don't add any ferts so I'm guessing in the planted tank any fertiliser is a risk vs. compromise.



I've raise and bred CRS as have many using ADA AS which is loaded with NH4.
I've also dosed typical EI and went from 12 to 50 shrimp a in a few months with other fish present.
So seems like there's little risk once the plants/bacteria are established, the rest is manure rubbish adn fear mongering.

I think some of the real issue with hyper sensitivity in these and few other shrimp has to do with POOR breeding and genetics. They inbreed way too much and do not out cross with other lines to produce a nice high grade + a tougher shrimp that can handle a wide range of aquarium parameters.

That is a genetic induced problem, not an environmental one.
the root issue is not the shrimp, it's the terrible ways they inbreed and do not produce a healthy line. Might as well just use colored dye and paint them.  :idea: 

If it looks pretty and sells, who cares? Not these folks.
Then they blame you and your water parameters.

It's BS.
I'm much more skeptical and wise to this sort of crap, but I was long a breeder before a plant guy.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## NeilW (20 May 2010)

plantbrain said:
			
		

> No, adding plenty of plants and allowing a 2-3 weeks or time to pass prior to adding the shrimp, should be fine.
> Plant and bacteria will keep the NH4 down.



I'm going in for the dry-startup method over 3-4 weeks and intend to be hot on daily water changes for when its eventually filled so hopefully this won't be an issue.



			
				plantbrain said:
			
		

> NeilW said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think this makes much more sensible explanation then breeders blindly blaming peoples water 'quality'; as you say rather they shouldn't be breeding ultra-sensitive stock with weak genetics that need to be spoon fed to be kept alive.  I am interested in breeding healthy animals so try to buy in new stock from different sources to help with the bloodline, I even go for a mix of grades.  Did you have any more tips from your breeding experience?  Would it even be an idea to introduce a couple of wild type bee shrimp?    

In my limited experience I try to maintain high standards of water quality for all my livestock with frequent maintenance so have yet to notice the supposed sensitivity of CRS.  Im guessing my gauge is if its not good enough for the shrimp its not good enough for anything else.  I only read about the sensitivity CRS can have to ferts on the internet- trouble is I tend to be paranoid if I find any unknown factors that could affect the shrimp, so you have been greatly reassuring!    

Cheers,
Neil


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## dw1305 (20 May 2010)

Hi all,
I don't think I wrote? 





> "In the 'ideal' Japanese breeding setup for CRS they don't add any ferts so I'm guessing in the planted tank any fertiliser is a risk vs. compromise."


 my view would be much more 





> I've not kept Bee shrimps in tanks with Osmocote in the substrate, but the slow release nature of it should mean that you won't get a big release of ammonia even if the nitrogen source is ammonium nitrate. This is also the reason for having a substrate component with high CEC, it will act as a buffer, absorbing nutrients when they are in excess, and potentially exchanging them later for other ions.


 which I certainly wrote earlier in the post.

I'd also agree with the genetic comments, I think that the CRS were all selectively bred from 1 original mutation (presumably by back-crossing the F1 and parent), so it would be surprising if they were very robust.  Via that unimpeachable source Wikipedia 





> In 1996, Mr. Hisayasu Suzuki of Japan discovered a red form of Caridina sp. among the usual black form offspring. He registered "crystal red shrimp" as a trademark  for this autosomal recessive red mutation  of the normal bee shrimp. The variety has gained wide popularity since in Japan and worldwide and has been further refined by the founder and other breeders to produce specimens with larger white patches and intensified red. In Japan they are often known as Red Bee Shrimps.



Personally I prefer the look of the lower grade ones with more red markings and even more than them I like the wild type "black and white" Bumblebee shrimp. 

The autosomal recessive bit suggests that if you do breed them with the wild type (RR) the only red ones (rr) will be the double recessive, so you wouldn't actually add any new genes. The F1 could be hardier, but they would all be heterozygous (Rr) and  their phenotype would be black and white. If you then crossed the F1 generation you would get RR Rr rR rr, but only those with both autosomal recessive genes (rr) would be CRS, the other 3 genotypes would be black and white Bumblebee.

cheers Darrel


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## NeilW (20 May 2010)

dw1305 said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> I don't think I wrote?
> 
> 
> ...



So it wouldn't be in the interest of a commercial breeder at all because they would be investing a lot of time and effort in the remote possibly that the new rr would be hardier?  I don't think it would work for me either at the moment, I don't have the tanks available for the challenge!

Cheers,
Neil


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## dw1305 (21 May 2010)

*Re: CRS*

Hi all,
I've had a bit more of a think about this, and I now do think that you possibly could breed a much hardier CRS by crossing with the wild type. 

I'm going to make the assumption that the gene that is "turned off" is the one that makes the other colour with red to give black (the shrimp are technically "erythristic"). It may be that the colour gene is linked to other genes which give a hardier shrimp (an example would be if the CRS lack the ability to synthesise a digestive enzyme etc.), or it's presence turned on gives a healthier shrimp (if you think of a condition like human albinism, another single gene mutation, albinos are prone to skin cancers, eye damage etc.) If this is the case all the CRS will be less fit and there would be nothing you could do about it.

If the normal type (R) colour gene isn't linked to other genes, and doesn't inherently make the CRS less fit, then breeding with healthier bumblebee shrimps would give you a range of variation, including the possibility that at least some of the offspring of the F2 (and subsequent generations) would have the "fittest" genes from both parents, and the erythristic (r) colour gene to make them fit and hardy CRS.

cheers Darrel


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## NeilW (21 May 2010)

Cheers Darrel, may even be a venture I eventually end up doing although its sounds like an awful lot of work.  Wonder if people would be interested in the 'super' CRS...

Thanks again for your advice,
Neil


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## dw1305 (23 May 2010)

Hi all,
If you do cross Black & White Bumblebee in, you would need to isolate the offspring and then allow them to breed together, taking  out some proportion of the "wild type" in every generation. You won't be able to tell what colour genes the black and white carry (they could be homozygous RR or heterozygous - Rr or rR)  but all the CRS will be rr. By selecting for health (this bit will be tricky, particularly because of the difficulty in sexing) you should be ableto breed a healthier CRS (assuming that the CRS colour gene doesn't make the shrimp inherently less fit) over time (so far the shrimps have been selectively bred to be a higher grade so far rather than for fitness and health).
cheers Darrel


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