# can i use a liquid iron supplement mixed in with my trace element mix?



## john6 (5 Jun 2022)

I have just been given 2 bottles of Easy Life Ferro, I make my own ferts using dry salts and use an automatic doser to dose daily, i use a trace mix and make 1000ml of fert, as my tank uses a lot of iron rather than seperately dose the iron ( as i havent got a spare head anyway) would it be ok to mix it in my trace mix fert.


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## john6 (5 Jun 2022)

Anybody?


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## GreggZ (5 Jun 2022)

Of course you can. The liquid fert is no different than the micro solution you are making. Mix them together any way you want. You are just adding more iron and water.

Curious how do you know that your tank is using lots of iron?


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## john6 (5 Jun 2022)

GreggZ said:


> Of course you can. The liquid fert is no different than the micro solution you are making. Mix them together any way you want. You are just adding more iron and water.
> 
> Curious how do you know that your tank is using lots of iron?



Probably gonna get slated but i use a test kit, goes from 1.6 after dosing on a sunday to 0 in about 6 days.
I maybe wrong but that seems alot to me.


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## Zeus. (5 Jun 2022)

john6 said:


> Probably gonna get slated but i use a test kit, goes from 1.6 after dosing on a sunday to 0 in about 6 days.


Dont trust test kits, trust what your plants are telling you, do they look like they have a Fe deficiency?
Plus 1.6ppm Fe is over three times the full EI weekly dose, which isn't going to be all used up in a week


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## john6 (5 Jun 2022)

Zeus. said:


> Dont trust test kits, trust what your plants are telling you, do they look like they have a Fe deficiency?
> Plus 1.6ppm Fe is over three times the full EI weekly dose, which isn't going to be all used up in a week


Am I right in thinking that yellowing leaves is an iron deficiancy?


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## dw1305 (5 Jun 2022)

Hi all,


john6 said:


> Probably gonna get slated but i use a test kit, goes from 1.6 after dosing on a sunday to 0 in about 6 days.
> I maybe wrong but that seems alot to me.





Zeus. said:


> Dont trust test kits, trust what your plants are telling you, do they look like they have a Fe deficiency?
> Plus 1.6ppm Fe is over three times the full EI weekly dose, which isn't going to be all used up in a week


If you assume these are real values, and just for the moment we will, it isn't that the plants taking up the iron (Fe) ions (Fe++(+)), it is those ions forming insoluble compounds and precipitating out of solution.






john6 said:


> Am I right in thinking that yellowing leaves is an iron deficiancy?


It looks like the plant in the foreground (_Helanthium tenellum_ ?) might be iron deficient.  Iron is non-mobile within the plant, so the thing to look for is <"yellowing (chlorosis) in new leaves">.

cheers Darrel


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## GreggZ (5 Jun 2022)

john6 said:


> Probably gonna get slated but i use a test kit, goes from 1.6 after dosing on a sunday to 0 in about 6 days.
> I maybe wrong but that seems alot to me.


Are you only dosing iron/micros once a week??? 

You should be dosing daily or every other day.  

And there isn't a tank in the world the uptakes 1.6 ppm Fe. Myself and many, many others dose less than 0.5 Fe weekly into very heavily planted high light tanks with no deficiencies. 

The yellowing could be lots of things. Diagnosing deficiencies is tricky business. Most deficiencies look a lot a like. 

If you want help with that, post a full tank shot with as much information as you can provide.


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## john6 (6 Jun 2022)

GreggZ said:


> Are you only dosing iron/micros once a week???
> 
> You should be dosing daily or every other day.
> 
> ...


I dose macro's Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday and Trace mix Monday, Wednesday, Friday and 50% water change on Sunday.
If its difficult to tell deficiencies by looking at the plants ( Which everybody on here says to do) then how are we to know what the problem is just by looking?
I use test kits as a guide not a pinpoint accurate measurement, I come from the reefing world where testing is key.
So If everybody says test kits are useless and its difficult to diagnose just by looking then how are we supposed to know what the problem is?


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## dw1305 (6 Jun 2022)

Hi all,


john6 said:


> If its difficult to tell deficiencies by looking at the plants ( Which everybody on here says to do) then how are we to know what the problem is just by looking?


It is, and it isn't, to a large degree it depends on the nature of the nutrient that is deficient. The easy ones to diagnose are the <"non-mobile nutrients">, because deficiencies of these effect young leaves. The down-side is that it is <"only new leaves">, that grow after the nutrient has been restored, that will be non-deficient.

For the mobile elements things are a lot more difficult, mainly because there are a lot more of them. The good news is that the plant can move these around, so that when they stop being Liebig's Limiting nutrient, you see a <"pretty instant growth response">.  Personally I don't try to diagnose deficiencies in older leaves, I just add more of a <"complete fertiliser">.

cheers Darrel


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## GreggZ (7 Jun 2022)

john6 said:


> I dose macro's Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday and Trace mix Monday, Wednesday, Friday and 50% water change on Sunday.
> If its difficult to tell deficiencies by looking at the plants ( Which everybody on here says to do) then how are we to know what the problem is just by looking?
> I use test kits as a guide not a pinpoint accurate measurement, I come from the reefing world where testing is key.
> So If everybody says test kits are useless and its difficult to diagnose just by looking then how are we supposed to know what the problem is?


There is a chart that has been going around for years describing/showing deficiency symptoms. What most don't know is that it was created for terrestrial plants, not aquatic plants.

In my opinion it does more harm than good. Different plants react differently to fertilizer levels. What one plants loves another might hate.

And I can't tell you how many people quickly diagnose something like "low potassium".  Then you ask what they are dosing and it's 40 ppm per week. 

Much like you and iron. Your iron dosing is not deficient.

The reality is most deficiencies look very similar. When you get to know the best in the hobby they would not presume to be able to diagnose deficiencies from pictures. And deficiencies could also be deficiencies of light, CO2, too much shading, too much crowding, poor maintenance, etc.

Just saying there are lots of ways to make a plant do poorly, and if you can pinpoint a nutrient deficiency from a picture then you are a better man than me, or anybody that I know in the hobby.


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## john6 (7 Jun 2022)

Sorry i asked.


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## john6 (8 Jun 2022)

So question still applies.
If you cant tell a deficiency by looks or test kit how are you supposed to know?


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## Wookii (8 Jun 2022)

john6 said:


> So question still applies.
> If you cant tell a deficiency by looks or test kit how are you supposed to know?



Neither will tell you precisely the deficiency, but both can be used to narrow it down, and combined with what you know you are putting in the tank, will help you fix it more easily by trial and error.

I'm not quite as against test kits as many on this forum, but I recognise them for the blunt instrument they are, and use them occasionally within those limitations. For example I wouldn't use an iron test kit to tell me exactly how much iron I have in the water column, but I'm happy to accept that it can tell me if I have a lot, a little, or none. You should be able to calculate exactly how much iron you are dosing, so that is your starting point. If your test kit is telling you that you have zero iron at some point in the week, and returns a non-zero result earlier in the week, then I think that enough to work initially on the basis of an iron availability issue to start with.

Breaking down the other information you've provided, you say:



john6 said:


> use an automatic doser to dose daily



but then say



john6 said:


> Probably gonna get slated but i use a test kit, goes from 1.6 after dosing on a sunday to 0 in about 6 days.



Which is quite a lot to dose as others have pointed out, but also suggests if you are going from 0 - 'a lot' you are dosing all your micros on one day? So are you dosing micros daily or weekly?

If weekly, then as I'm guessing you live in a hard water area, it could well be as @dw1305 points out:



dw1305 said:


> those ions forming insoluble compounds and precipitating out of solution.



The solution may be to try DTPA chelated iron that remains in the water column for longer in hard higher pH water, and to dose micros daily.

What other dry salts are you using, and what recipe? hat time of day do you dose?


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## dw1305 (8 Jun 2022)

Hi all,


john6 said:


> If you cant tell a deficiency by looks or test kit how are you supposed to know?


I think you can use <"the appearance"> and <"growth"> of the plant. It isn't perfect, but a <"floating plant"> takes CO2 and light out  of the equation.


john6 said:


> I use test kits as a guide not a pinpoint accurate measurement, I come from the reefing world where testing is key.


A marine reef is a much more <"black and white scenario"> where you are dealing with a <"much more consistent">, alkaline (and salty) medium.


> _It is <"slightly different with sea water">, you have <"known datum values"> to aim for in a much denser, saltier liquid. The increased density of sea water allows you to use a "protein skimmer" and you the <"ionic content of the water"> allows you to use a hygrometer or refractometer to measure salinity. For many parameters there are a very small range of values which are "good" and everything else is sub-optimal. It is a <"very black and white world">, compared to freshwater, where everything is <"shades of grey">._


One of the issues with freshwater is that the <"Rio Negro is very different from Lake Tanganyika">.

cheers Darrel


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## john6 (8 Jun 2022)

dw1305 said:


> A marine reef is a much more <"black and white scenario"> where you are dealing with a <"much more consistent">, alkaline (and salty) medium.


It still uses test kits. If they are good enough for a reef tank, why do you say they are no good for freshwater?
Alot of test kits are used for both salt and fresh, yet apparently useless for fresh but acceptable for salt. I think its about time people stopped telling everybody that test kits are no good and useless.
I think the majority of test kits are consistent rather than accurate which is what i am after, I dont care if my nitrates are showing as 40ppm when in actual fact it is 30ppm as long as the test kit always shows that consistency.


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## john6 (8 Jun 2022)

Wookii said:


> Neither will tell you precisely the deficiency, but both can be used to narrow it down, and combined with what you know you are putting in the tank, will help you fix it more easily by trial and error.
> 
> I'm not quite as against test kits as many on this forum, but I recognise them for the blunt instrument they are, and use them occasionally within those limitations. For example I wouldn't use an iron test kit to tell me exactly how much iron I have in the water column, but I'm happy to accept that it can tell me if I have a lot, a little, or none. You should be able to calculate exactly how much iron you are dosing, so that is your starting point. If your test kit is telling you that you have zero iron at some point in the week, and returns a non-zero result earlier in the week, then I think that enough to work initially on the basis of an iron availability issue to start with.
> 
> ...


I use the ei dosing method using APFUK ferts and trace mix, dosed on alternate days with 50% water change on a Sunday. 
I test once a week on a Sunday before i water change and test again Sunday afternoon. My iron is always 0 when i test Sunday Morning before a water change.
The doser doses at 11am and lights come on at 12.30 til 18.30.


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## dw1305 (8 Jun 2022)

Hi all,


john6 said:


> It still uses test kits. If they are good enough for a reef tank, why do you say they are no good for freshwater?


You have known datum values and a much saltier, denser medium, they aren't always comparable.


john6 said:


> Alot of test kits are used for both salt and fresh, yet apparently useless for fresh but acceptable for salt. I think its about time people stopped telling everybody that test kits are no good and useless.


I'd recommend that every-one does <"whatever they feel happiest with">. 

<"I'm not anti-testing">, I'd really like to know <"the water parameters for my tank">. Also if you have access to  a <"professional grade analytical lab">? I'd recommend using  them.  

Personally I'm going to carry on using (and recommending):

 conductivity meters, 
and with certain proviso's,  

semi-titrimetric kits for <"orthophosphate (PO4---)"> 
dissolved oxygen meters  and
ion selective electrodes
Other than those I'm going to recommend <"inferential techniques, risk management and probability">, because I'm personally convinced that they have a greater chance of success.

cheers Darrel


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## Wookii (9 Jun 2022)

john6 said:


> I use the ei dosing method using APFUK ferts and trace mix, dosed on alternate days with 50% water change on a Sunday.
> I test once a week on a Sunday before i water change and test again Sunday afternoon. My iron is always 0 when i test Sunday Morning before a water change.
> The doser doses at 11am and lights come on at 12.30 til 18.30.



OK, so how much are you dosing and what is the tank volume, and are you using the standard APFUK mixing instructions (i.e. 1tsp of trace mix per 500ml of water) or something else? Also, are you injecting CO2?


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## john6 (9 Jun 2022)

Wookii said:


> OK, so how much are you dosing and what is the tank volume, and are you using the standard APFUK mixing instructions (i.e. 1tsp of trace mix per 500ml of water) or something else? Also, are you injecting CO2?


Using the instructions that came with the apfuk starter kit as that is what most people recommended, no co2 or l/c, all details are in my tank thread.


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## Wookii (9 Jun 2022)

john6 said:


> Using the instructions that came with the apfuk starter kit as that is what most people recommended, no co2 or l/c, all details are in my tank thread.



In that case you won't be dosing 1.6ppm iron, you'll be at roughly 0.5ppm, so that's a test kit error. To be fair you shouldn't even need to be dosing full EI in a low tech tank. Given your hard water, your pH is likely to be well above 7, so the EDTA chelated iron in the APFUK mix is likely breaking down too rapidly. I have hard water, and have the same issue in my low tech tap water tank.

There are two things you can do to help:

1) Buy some DTPA chelated iron - you can buy this in powdered form (Amazon, eBay), or pre-mixed in TNC Iron AT. You shouldn't need to add much, so I would keep it less than a 0.25ppm per week dose of that to your tank, so add it to your dosing container in sufficient quantity to achieve that.

2) If you are on an auto-doser, there is no real need to use alternate day dosing - that system was design to make it easy for people manually dosing. I would in fact perform daily dosing of both micros and macros. DTPA Iron breaks down when exposed to light, so dose your micros at night, and your macros just before lights on.

Give it a month or two and see how you go.


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## john6 (9 Jun 2022)

Wookii said:


> In that case you won't be dosing 1.6ppm iron, you'll be at roughly 0.5ppm, so that's a test kit error. Given your hard water, your pH is likely to be well above 7, so the EDTA chelated iron in the APFUK mix is likely breaking down too rapidly. I have hard water, and have the same issue in my low tech.
> 
> There are two things you can do to help:
> 
> ...


Brilliant, Thanks @Wookii 
Where is the best place to buy this DTPA powder from? rather buy powder than pre-mixed.


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## Wookii (9 Jun 2022)

john6 said:


> Brilliant, Thanks @Wookii
> Where is the best place to buy this DTPA powder from? rather buy powder than pre-mixed.



Amazon: 

Amazon product

eBay: 









						Fe 8% DTPA Chelated Organic Iron 50g Planted Aquarium Fish Tank Fertiliser EI UK  | eBay
					

Fe 8% DTPA Chelated 50g. Organic form of Fe for aquarium use (clean 100% chelated Fe DTPA). Iron, Fe 8% DTPA. 10g Fe 8% DTPA Chelated + 500ml water, 1ml solution per 100 l of tank water yields a concentration of 0.016ppm Fe.



					www.ebay.co.uk
				




Looks like both are coming from the same source:









						Fe 8% DTPA Chelated Aquarium Fertaliser £4.99 | Aqua Plants Care
					

Organic form of Iron Fe for aquarium use DTPA chelated. Prevents Iron deficiency in fish tank DIY Aquarium Fertiliser for EI dosing Iron deficiency is quite common When it occurs, it impedes plants’ growth UK online shop. Aqua Plants Care




					aquaplantscare.uk


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