# Had three honey gouramis last one died today.



## mow said (18 Dec 2018)

This is my second try with these fish. I dont think i will ever buy these fish anymore. I also have german blue rams in my tank that are thriving in my tank. I dont know what caused it but she seems fine last night and all of a sudden dead today. And also all of them were the same fine one day next day dead.


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## zozo (18 Dec 2018)

It oftenly seems a bad quality breeding issue.. About all Gouramis are commercialy bred. If i review the importers data base the only wild caught Gouramis sp. they have are the Indian Dwarf Colisa, the Chocolate and the Trichopsis the rest is commercial.

And they have a lot..
https://www.ruinemans.com/en-GB/115/gourami-and-macropode.html
Anything wild is labeled wild if not it's captive bred..


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## mow said (18 Dec 2018)

@zozo i thought so because how are all my fish not dying for the past year and half. And as soon i got 3 gouramis one after the other start off dying with no obvious reason. And these are dwarf honey gouramis ive only managed to keep them no longer than 6 months this is my second try and last.


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## sparkyweasel (18 Dec 2018)

I agree with Marcel, there are some very poor quality gouramis being imported, especially Honeys and Dwarfs. It is sad, because they used to be beautiful fish, and were easy to keep when you could buy healthy stock to start with.


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## Parablennius (18 Dec 2018)

Sadly, after returning to tropical freshwater after a long break doing other stuff, I often see very poor quality fish across the board. I don't have an answer but I do find hybridised, deliberately deformed, long-finned, colour enhanced, glow in the dark, etc fish repulsive. I could rant all day long but what's the point, folk keep buying them!! Dwarf gourami males used to be a thing of beauty. Now they seem to be unnecessarily enhanced in some way. Not for me, I'm afraid.


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## mow said (19 Dec 2018)

Parablennius said:


> Sadly, after returning to tropical freshwater after a long break doing other stuff, I often see very poor quality fish across the board. I don't have an answer but I do find hybridised, deliberately deformed, long-finned, colour enhanced, glow in the dark, etc fish repulsive. I could rant all day long but what's the point, folk keep buying them!! Dwarf gourami males used to be a thing of beauty. Now they seem to be unnecessarily enhanced in some way. Not for me, I'm afraid.



I agree with you there allot of these fish are not supposed to look like this in the wild but i have learned my lesson now. And the way they lable them like fire red honey gouramis etc. I just liked these little guys but ohh well wont be trying with them anymore


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## rebel (19 Dec 2018)

One potential strategy is to use a LFS quarantine. Just buy them and ask them to keep them for a few weeks. 

I always go to my LFS and observe most fish for weeks before pushing the trigger.


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## Tommy (19 Dec 2018)

I might have the chance to get some croaking gouramis do these suffer from poor strains as well? Has anyone kept them and had success? Thanks


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## alto (20 Dec 2018)

Croaking gourami  Trichopsis vittata
https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/trichopsis-vittata/
This larger species seems prone to more aggression - at least intraspecies - though I suspect with a suitably large tank, this would be less notable 


Sparkling gourami  Trichopsis pumila
https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/trichopsis-pumila/
these usually appear more laidback 

Both species may ship interchangeably as they are much less distinct as juveniles, both make audible sounds and both may become avid shrimp hunters (typical of most gourami and anabantoid species)

As these are still wildtype and neither colour line bred nor hybridized, they’re less prone to the common issues observed with the “dwarf gourami’s” 

Note wildtype honey gouramis are usually fairly sturdy stock but are seldom available on commercial fish lists, even when identified as such, what most often arrives is a color variant (rumour is this was accomplished through hybridization with those infamously weak colorline bred Trichogaster lalius strains)


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## Tommy (20 Dec 2018)

alto said:


> Croaking gourami  Trichopsis vittata
> https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/trichopsis-vittata/
> This larger species seems prone to more aggression - at least intraspecies - though I suspect with a suitably large tank, this would be less notable
> 
> ...



Thanks for the reply alto, my tank is 240ltrs I was thinking of adding a group of around 10, I am going to see them tomorrow, do you know if they are aggressive towards other species?


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## alto (21 Dec 2018)

I’m assuming you’re thinking of the larger species 
10 sounds a reasonable number for that tank though if they’re unusual In your area I’d likely buy a few more just in case of a few mishaps 
There’s some anecdotal info worth reading on the SF profile, read the profile carefully to decide if they’d thrive in your tank set up (consider tankmates)

I’ve kept T pumilla in a planted tank BUT I have fairly low flowrate (4-5x turnover/hour)

I’m a great fan of Sphaerichthys gourami species, I’ve found that while 8-10 may do OK, this is really a minimum group size, they seem rather happier (long term) in a group of at least 15 
I’d be inclined to apply similar numbers to T vittatus as again they seem to fare better in a group while also exhibiting some conspecific aggression


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## PARAGUAY (21 Dec 2018)

Parablennius said:


> Sadly, after returning to tropical freshwater after a long break doing other stuff, I often see very poor quality fish across the board. I don't have an answer but I do find hybridised, deliberately deformed, long-finned, colour enhanced, glow in the dark, etc fish repulsive. I could rant all day long but what's the point, folk keep buying them!! Dwarf gourami males used to be a thing of beauty. Now they seem to be unnecessarily enhanced in some way. Not for me, I'm afraid.


Me nether . Agree with you on this . I believe glofish are that way for scientific research and somehow? available and now on general sale to fishkeepers?Dyed fish,ballon types PFKs editor Nathan Hill is a long time campaigner against these imports and the magazine support his efforts to encourage aquarists to support  against them and ask shops not to sell them


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## zozo (21 Dec 2018)

Tommy said:


> I might have the chance to get some croaking gouramis do these suffer from poor strains as well? Has anyone kept them and had success? Thanks



I'm keeping pumilas for several years now.. And till now i only found wild caught specimen.. Quality wise the fish where always ok.. If th etank is densly planted and you happen to get a pair that is intrested in breeding they certainly will. And fry can survive in sufficiently dense planted tanks. If you are lucky with a very knowledgable LFS that is able to sex them giving you the ability to buy 2 or 3 females on 1 male, you will encrease the chances of breeding. I've had fry survive and grow to adult.. Hard to say, didn't put a tag, but i might have one still today that is born in my aqaurium.

They are lovely little fish, very interactive, kinda bit bad boy character, always quareling. Always intersted in anything that moves and always exploring the smalles nooks and crannies in every corner of the tank. Indeed occasinaly they like to harass shrimps, i do not realy see them eating adults shrimp, but rather shase them around and nibble it. Since pumilas ar such slender fish, getting into the smallest places they might hunt and eat shrimp fry. But till now i kept pumila and cherry shrimp succesfully together.

The best part of these fish is, if the room is quiet you will occasinaly hear them croaking, which gives a wonderfull jungle like background ambience in the living room. It kinda sounds like a mini Magpie bird hiding somewhere.


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## sparkyweasel (21 Dec 2018)

Hi, 10 or 15 Trichopsis vittata would be fine in a tank that size, when rivals display to each other there's space for the weaker fish to withdraw so it doesn't develop into an actual fight. Also females who are not ready to spawn  can get away from any unwanted attention.
The aggression is only between rivals, they leave other species alone, but their long fins are very tempting to any tankmates with fin-nipping tendencies. 
I've kept them with small, peaceful fish like Harlequins, Chain Loach, Five-banded Barbs etc.
They are lovely fish, but don't always show their best in a dealers tank. As long as they look healthy they will develop their colours after settling into a well-planted tank.
I haven't had any for a while now, the more I think about them, the more I want to get some again, 
I might have to go looking after Christmas.


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## Tommy (21 Dec 2018)

alto said:


> I’m assuming you’re thinking of the larger species
> 10 sounds a reasonable number for that tank though if they’re unusual In your area I’d likely buy a few more just in case of a few mishaps
> There’s some anecdotal info worth reading on the SF profile, read the profile carefully to decide if they’d thrive in your tank set up (consider tankmates)
> 
> ...





zozo said:


> I'm keeping pumilas for several years now.. And till now i only found wild caught specimen.. Quality wise the fish where always ok.. If th etank is densly planted and you happen to get a pair that is intrested in breeding they certainly will. And fry can survive in sufficiently dense planted tanks. If you are lucky with a very knowledgable LFS that is able to sex them giving you the ability to buy 2 or 3 females on 1 male, you will encrease the chances of breeding. I've had fry survive and grow to adult.. Hard to say, didn't put a tag, but i might have one still today that is born in my aqaurium.
> 
> They are lovely little fish, very interactive, kinda bit bad boy character, always quareling. Always intersted in anything that moves and always exploring the smalles nooks and crannies in every corner of the tank. Indeed occasinaly they like to harass shrimps, i do not realy see them eating adults shrimp, but rather shase them around and nibble it. Since pumilas ar such slender fish, getting into the smallest places they might hunt and eat shrimp fry. But till now i kept pumila and cherry shrimp succesfully together.
> 
> The best part of these fish is, if the room is quiet you will occasinaly hear them croaking, which gives a wonderfull jungle like background ambience in the living room. It kinda sounds like a mini Magpie bird hiding somewhere.





sparkyweasel said:


> Hi, 10 or 15 Trichopsis vittata would be fine in a tank that size, when rivals display to each other there's space for the weaker fish to withdraw so it doesn't develop into an actual fight. Also females who are not ready to spawn  can get away from any unwanted attention.
> The aggression is only between rivals, they leave other species alone, but their long fins are very tempting to any tankmates with fin-nipping tendencies.
> I've kept them with small, peaceful fish like Harlequins, Chain Loach, Five-banded Barbs etc.
> They are lovely fish, but don't always show their best in a dealers tank. As long as they look healthy they will develop their colours after settling into a well-planted tank.
> ...



Thank you for the excellent reply's guys, I went to see the fish today they didn't look the best and there wasn't that many and some were too small to put in my tank with the rainbows so I left it. They said they will be getting more in January so I am going to wait for now, I am going to do some more research on them while I wait. Thanks again


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## alto (21 Dec 2018)

I don’t know that I’d keep them with rainbows (well, OK, I wouldn’t but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t give it a go ) as boisterous, active tankmates seldom really suit the smaller gourami species, though depending how your tank is set up, T vittatus may settle in happily enough in their own area of the tank ... you’ll likely just see less of them, and more limited behaviours 
Just make sure that none of the more active fish are nipping at their trailing fins - definitely a problem with fish such as zebra danios and some of the tetras 

Unless you’ve a hospital or quarantine tank, never buy any fish (no matter how exceptional/rare/tempting) that isn’t in excellent form 
And after purchase, increase water changes for the first week or two (daily if possible)
And reduce lighting and CO2 for the first days 

It’s well worth picking up an AIO tank kit to use for quarantine


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## Tommy (21 Dec 2018)

alto said:


> I don’t know that I’d keep them with rainbows (well, OK, I wouldn’t but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t give it a go ) as boisterous, active tankmates seldom really suit the smaller gourami species, though depending how your tank is set up, T vittatus may settle in happily enough in their own area of the tank ... you’ll likely just see less of them, and more limited behaviours
> Just make sure that none of the more active fish are nipping at their trailing fins - definitely a problem with fish such as zebra danios and some of the tetras
> 
> Unless you’ve a hospital or quarantine tank, never buy any fish (no matter how exceptional/rare/tempting) that isn’t in excellent form
> ...



Hi alto, to be honest I have only got 3 rainbows left out of 7, Ive lost 4 over the last 2 weeks, it seems only the boesemani are affected, they lost colour and there bellies were thin, they were eating, lfs thinks they could have worms so have been treating for that but I doubt the last one is going to survive. If they all die I don't think I will be getting anymore for this tank at least. I have another tank which I am on setting up, but was going to use that to give breeding apisto's a go, never tried breeding before so think its time to give it a go. Will look into getting a quarantine tank after xmas. I keep empire gudgeons as well and Ive been told they can be nippy? If that's the case then I wont be getting the gouramis. They havnt touched my apisto he is king of the tank and knows it lol.


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## zozo (22 Dec 2018)

alto said:


> boisterous, active tankmates seldom really suit the smaller gourami species



Absolutely agree to that.. And also forgot to mention this... They can easily be outcompeted.. Thay are rascalls to eachother, but as bold as they are also as easily intimidated by agressive behavior from bigger fish and even stop eating and wither away. They should be King species in the tank. Or a very well setup big tank.

With loads of hiding places.. That they have in my tank and always have to search to find more than 1 and its a pain in the neck to count them.. Always on the move, 2 seconds later and again at the other side of the tank finding something else inetersting to watch for 3 second.


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## alto (22 Dec 2018)

Tommy said:


> I keep empire gudgeons as well and Ive been told they can be nippy? If that's the case then I wont be getting the gouramis.


I’ve not kept empire gobies but quick online search suggests they’re fine in community tanks paying little attention to other fish ... just monitor their behaviour over the next while I suppose


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## alto (22 Dec 2018)

Tommy said:


> got 3 rainbows left out of 7, Ive lost 4 over the last 2 weeks, it seems only the boesemani are affected, they lost colour and there bellies were thin, they were eating,


Rainbows are (very) prone to mycobacterium infections so this may be a possibility

Note that fish with advanced internal parasite infestation (including helminths) generally display an initial (& often enthusiastic) food response, but then consume very little actual food, ofttimes appearing to taste and spit


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## Tommy (22 Dec 2018)

alto said:


> Rainbows are (very) prone to mycobacterium infections so this may be a possibility
> 
> Note that fish with advanced internal parasite infestation (including helminths) generally display an initial (& often enthusiastic) food response, but then consume very little actual food, ofttimes appearing to taste and spit



This is exactly what they have been doing although not spitting out all the food. They get excited as soon as food  hits the water, not all the food gets eaten though.


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## alto (22 Dec 2018)

If there is still food response, I’d treat with levamisole~food
(note I’ve only prepared food beginning with “pure” crystalline levamisole HCl)

Check Darrel’s commentary in this recent thread
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/skinny-apistogramma-parasites.56146/#post-545324


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## Konsa (22 Dec 2018)

Hi
I have used Harka Verm for in tank treatment and medicated food.It will do the job but U may  want both ways as is quite safe to use(used it with shrimps,ottos ,Sap puffers and others)and your fish my not accept the food when fully medicated.
Regards Konsa


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## Tommy (23 Dec 2018)

alto said:


> If there is still food response, I’d treat with levamisole~food
> (note I’ve only prepared food beginning with “pure” crystalline levamisole HCl)
> 
> Check Darrel’s commentary in this recent thread
> https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/skinny-apistogramma-parasites.56146/#post-545324



Thanks for the link, so I need to get HARKA-VERM, is this the right one? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HARKERS-...h=item3aa6102488:g:pGcAAOSwiCRUi0zZ:rk:2:pf:0 following the links in the link you sent me am I right in thinking the dosage is 2.36mgl x 240lts of water = 566.4mg for my tank? here's the link to the calculations https://www.loaches.com/disease-treatment/levamisole-hydrochloride-1 Thanks again for your help


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## dw1305 (23 Dec 2018)

Hi all, 
Yes that is the one, and I think it is 8% (0.08) Levamisole HCl. I dosed it at about 12 ml for 60 litres, which would give you 48 ml in 240 litres, or about 3.8g Levamisole HCl in total. I assumed that one millilitre of  "Harka Verm" weighs one gram.

The 566.4 mg is the amount of Levamisole HCl you need to give you 2 ppm Levamisole in the tank water, this is from the Loaches On-line link "_59 mg of Levamisole HCl is equivalent to 50 mg of Levamisole base_" (~1.18ppm Levamisole HCl = 1 ppm 
Levamisole base and 2.36ppm Levamisole HCl = 2ppm), and then 2.36 x 240 gives you 566.4 .

Take into account the fact that the "Harka Verm" is a suspension with only 8% Levamisole HCl in it, to get to the 2 ppm in the tank water you would need to add 7.1 g of Harka Verm, so about twice what I dosed. 

The workings for that were 566 / 0.08 = 7080 mg or 7.08g Levamisole. This works out to 88.5 ml of "Harka Verm" (7.08 / 0.08).

cheers Darrel


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## alto (23 Dec 2018)

Be careful of the source re storage notes on Harkers website



> Do not store above 25°C and store in a dark place.



Sorry I’ve not used this version (of levamisole) so can’t really comment otherwise, except that some fish, shrimp, plants can react adversely, especially to extended bath treatment: some internal parasites are more resistant than others and oral treatment is always more effective than bath treatments

pH is an important factor re bioavailability/stability of the levamisole in solution
(as I recall slightly acidic pH 6.0 - 7 is significantly better than activity at pH 7 - 7.5, and don’t use as a bath treatment if pH over 7.5, decomposition is rapid at pH 8 ... disregard LOL comments on this aspect of levamisole stability in aqueous solution )

I’d check the pH of the Harkaverm upon arrival - note levamisole is more stable in methanol so check label to this effect


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## Tommy (23 Dec 2018)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> Yes that is the one, and I think it is 8% (0.08) Levamisole HCl. I dosed it at about 12 ml for 60 litres, which would give you 48 ml in 240 litres, or about 3.8g Levamisole HCl in total. I assumed that one millilitre of  "Harka Verm" weighs one gram.
> 
> The 566.4 mg is the amount of Levamisole HCl you need to give you 2 ppm Levamisole in the tank water, this is from the Loaches On-line link "_59 mg of Levamisole HCl is equivalent to 50 mg of Levamisole base_" (~1.18ppm Levamisole HCl = 1 ppm
> ...



Thanks very much Darrel, is it just a one off dose or does it have to be repeated over the course of a week?


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## Tommy (23 Dec 2018)

alto said:


> Be careful of the source re storage notes on Harkers website
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My PH is 7 and drops with co2 to around 6.4, I will store it in the fridge


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## alto (23 Dec 2018)

Depending on fish response, you can easily redose as needed, just do a large water change 75-90%

I’d also suggest a large water change before beginning treatment (also check filters & substrate for excess debris)

I was treating Altum angels for a very nasty parasite (that I’ve only seen in wild caught SA fish) which required a long term bath initially, followed with internittent L-treated food over several months 
I’m not sure I’d do it again, the fish were miserable, I was miserable ... unfortunately this particularly helminth is wide spread through fish gills & musculature before any external symptoms are visible (a slender white worm encapsulated on the body of the fish, the worms are strongly “hooked” into the muscle wall so can’t be removed without drastic tissue damage, an adult worm is 3-4 cm in length)


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## Tommy (23 Dec 2018)

alto said:


> Depending on fish response, you can easily redose as needed, just do a large water change 75-90%
> 
> I’d also suggest a large water change before beginning treatment (also check filters & substrate for excess debris)
> 
> ...



Thanks, that's a big worm! hope my fish don't get any like that.


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