# Ammonia spike with new Akadama substrate, help!



## chris1004 (15 May 2010)

Hi,

As the heading indicates I am having a huge ammonia spike with a newly installed Akadama substrate.

The readings on my test kit are off the scale and that's after two 80% water changes today and one last night.

Fortunately I haven't got any fish in there yet. The new substrate was installed last weekend but instead of using Osmocoat I used the miracle grow equivalent.http://www.wilkinsonplus.com/invt/0240321

I couldn't find Osmocoat in any of my local stores and as James had said that the miracle grow equivalent would be fine (( bottom of page 11- top of page 12) http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=741&start=100) I used that instead.

What is the best course of action now??????

Regards, Chris.


----------



## Garuf (16 May 2010)

Plenty of water changes. Just keep on top of it, ADA's aquasoil does exactly the same thing just make sure you've loads of plants and keep to score with waterchanges.


----------



## chris1004 (16 May 2010)

Hi Garuf,

I don't think its that simple mate wish it was. I've done 4 80% water changes in 2 days and haven't even made a dent in the ammonia spike. I'm using an API home test kit and the test is coming back dark green every time. Almost the exact colour of a Stell Artois bottle. This is off the scale of the colour chart supplied by API. I don't have any other issues using the test kit with other tanks always performs as you would expect.

I suspect its Ammonium rather than ammonia although I don't exactly know what this means in real terms its just the the miracle grow lists ammonium nitrate as an ingredient.

My Nitrate test is coming back 0 as you would expect after that many water changes.

Regards, Chris.


----------



## Garuf (16 May 2010)

I wouldn't expect 0, I'd expect 10ppm ish with tap water having residual levels of nitrate nitrite and phosphates. I wouldn't worry overly at the moment I don't think. Ammonium nitrate should be insoluble as far as I remember... I suppose James would be the one to ask as he's used the stuff?


----------



## chris1004 (16 May 2010)

Hi Garuf

I wouldn't mind betting that the Nitrite is much nearer 0ppm than 10ppm as I use 100% remineralised RO water and I haven't any fish in there yet but do have 2 x mature external filters running on the tank. However its rather irrelevant as its the Ammonia reading on my test kit that I'm much more concerned with at the moment.

Regards, Chris.


----------



## a1Matt (16 May 2010)

What plant mass have you got in the Chris?
If it was me I'd be inclined to put in a shedload of floating plants to help soak up the ammonia. Amazon frogbit is the most effective mopper upper I've come across.

and keep on with the water changes of course. that is the main thing.

I can not see anything else you can do really (short of tearing it all out).


----------



## chris1004 (17 May 2010)

Hi,

At this point I'd just like to understand why its happening and why so severe? Remember I've now done 4x80%water changes in 48hours and made little or no impact on the ammonia reading on my test kit!!!!!! I've never known anything like it. So glad I never put fish straight back in. 

I've checked the ferts used by reading the uk fertiliser declaration labels and they are similar on both Osmocote and Miracle grow and I no longer think that the Miraclegrow has caused this problem and I was wrong about ammonium nitrate its actually listed as ammonical nitrogen. The two products do have slight differences but nothing that worries me, if anything it appears to me that Miraclegrow is a slightly better product as it contains trace elements and magnesium that aren't in Osmocote.

I have a lot of plants in there mostly Crypt and Echinodorus species but also have sagateria subulata and giant hygrophilia. The co2 is cranked up and the DC is well in the yellow. I'm also supplementing that by adding flourish excel daily (mostly to try to keep algae at bay) and feeding both macro and micro ferts as normal. Some of the Crypts have melted back a little but nothing more than you would expect after relocating them.

Regards, Chris.


----------



## JamesC (17 May 2010)

How much miraclegrow did you put in? You only need a sprinkling (1-2 tablespoons per square foot) on the bottom. This does need to be capped with a good quantity of akadama to prevent leaching. One of akadama's great properties is that it readily adsorbs ammonium (NH4+) - think of kitty litter.

I've used miraclegrow in my tanks and have never even had a hint of ammonium so not sure where your high levels have come from.

James


----------



## chris1004 (18 May 2010)

Hi James,

I kind of hoped you'd answer this one. 

I don't think I even put that much Miracle grow in. I put a good handful in and sprinkled it evenly across the bottom with about 1 & 1/2" Akadama on top exactly as I read it should be. Looking at how much I have left I'd guess about 150 grams or so and the footprint of my tank is 48"x18".

I'm really starting to think that for some reason the actual ammonia test results are being skewed and that there isn't as much ammonia in there as it would appear. I mean how can after that much water changing the results be still off the scale? I'd at least expect it to drop and rise again if something was leeching ammonia but the test shows its not changing and I've been doing one just before and just after the water change. The Nitrite test is showing zero (I know there will be some residual nitrite that won't show up on my test kit) which is also confusing as if there was ammonia in the water then I'd expect this to rise as both filters are mature. 

I'll admit to being a bit stumped on this one.

What I am intending to do is to leave things alone for a few days and keep an eye on the nitrite readings this should be a fairly good indicator as to whether its ammonia or some sort of reaction with my test kit.


Regards, Chris.


----------



## ceg4048 (19 May 2010)

Chris,
       48"x18" =864 square inch = 6 square foot. The 5 grams per square foot rule means 5 X 6sqft = 30 grams. 

You have 5 times the suggested amount. Miracle Grow, like all terrestrial fertilizers uses Ammonium Nitrate as it's nitrogen source.

The expression "ammonical nitrogen" is not an actual chemical. It simply means that the main source of Nitrogen in this product is derived from Ammonia. That normally means Ammonium Nitrate.

Cheers,


----------



## plantbrain (19 May 2010)

Pack some plants in there, add zeolite, and then do a 90% water changes etc.
No fish, so you can go whole hog with water changes.

I question the test kit also :idea: 

Plants should suck up the NH4, bacteria should finish off the rest.
Zeolite and water changes should knock it down as well.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## chris1004 (20 May 2010)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Chris,
> 48"x18" =864 square inch = 6 square foot. The 5 grams per square foot rule means 5 X 6sqft = 30 grams.
> 
> You have 5 times the suggested amount. Miracle Grow, like all terrestrial fertilizers uses Ammonium Nitrate as it's nitrogen source.
> ...



Hi Clive / all, thanks for your answers they are much appreciated. 

Would love to know where you plucked that figure from, 5g per sq foot. Never seen that suggested anywhere, not that I can remember anyway.

Still I reckon your probably right as it does appear that I may have overdone the dosage a wee bit but I was working on the premise of a good handfull which is how it was described. Even James just said 1-2 tablespoons per square foot a few posts ago and a tablespoon weighs 15grams (and yes being a sad old git I have just weighed it out).

Maybe of some interest is that Miracle grow is made up from 9.3% of 'Ammonical Nitrogen' as opposed to Osmocotes 6.8%.   

The Nitrite reading that my test kits are showing indicates that the Nitrite has now gone up considerably so it appears that it is ammonia afterall that is being registered by the ammonia test kit. I undertstand that the levels of which may still be very suspect though.  

At this point my main concern is that of triggering algae to bloom, which obviously I don't want to do, but it would appear may not have a choice in the matter if I can't get the ammonia under control.  

I'm not at all worried about putting fish in there yet and will get some zeolite sorted a.s.a.p. I''ll also keep up with the water changes,turn the lights down, keep the co2 high and supplement with flourish excel until it sorts itself out.

On the plus side the plants seem to be ok and the crypt melt has stopped, at least for the time being. 

Fingers crossed then. I'll let you know how it goes.

Regards, Chris.


----------



## chris1004 (25 May 2010)

Hi,

Just a quick update as promised.

After working hard with water changes both the ammonia and nitrite test results have improved dramatically and stabilized. I'd now be happy to put fish in, but I'm going to wait a while yet to let the plants get more established as its noticeable (at least to me a converted gravel user) how light the Akadama is and I'd rather the plants get well rooted before potentially being disturbed by my fish.

When the Akadama was first installed a very fine almost dust like particles covered everything, plant leaves, hard-scape, substrate the lot. This has now gone completely, coincidence? Or was it simply because I put to much Miracle grow in? I'd love to understand more clearly why I had problems, maybe help avoid them happening again in the future.      

Now things have settled down a bit the water and the plants have a polished look about them, I'm impressed, and despite my trouble I'm glad I've done this. Its still early days yet but hopefully the bulk of the hard work is done so I'm looking forward to the fruits of my labor.

Regards, Chris.


----------



## murph (25 May 2010)

Glad things have worked out.

I too have just put in akadama and find it's very light, I have a base of playsand then 2" or so of akadama and find plants are easily dislodged. I hope the root soon.

I washed mine about 4 timed and still got clouds in the water.


----------



## chris1004 (26 May 2010)

Hi Murph,

I've had a few plants come up at first but I think that was mainly due to the flow which is about 20x tank volume so considering that it hasn't been too bad. They certainly seem to have stopped coming up now anyway and that problem was mostly confined to the first week or so and to a lesser extent I used to get it with gravel substrates anyway so nothing lost.

A lot of my slight woes are down to my inexperience with dedicated plant substrates I'll admit. As I said before this is my first foray away from gravel as the mainstay of a substrate and its all a bit of a learning curve. That said the guys on this forum for whom I have a deep respect of their acquired and collective knowledge fill me with both confidence and inspiration, so I know things will be alright in the end.

Regards, Chris.


----------



## a1Matt (26 May 2010)

I'm subscribed to this thread so I can check how things are going for you, and I am glad you stuck with it and that they are starting to go well for you


----------



## dw1305 (27 May 2010)

Hi all,
The Ammonia problem may be to do with the coating of the "Miracle grow", I haven't got any too hand, but it may be the coating has dissolved/degraded, meaning that all the nitrogen has gone into solution (rather than being slow release over time). 

The "dust" disappearing is to  with the flocculation of clays, this is partially a chemical process, and partially a biological one. Colonising  bacteria produce a  "biopolymer flocculant" and this gums the substrate surface together and also aggregates  the colloids together, allowing them to settle out under gravity. It is a process widely used in the waste water industry, technical bit below.

Shih, I._ et al _
Production of a biopolymer flocculant from Bacillus licheniformis and its flocculation properties
Bioresource Technology 78, Issue 3, July 2001, Pages 267-272 

Abstract
_"Bacillus licheniformis CCRC 12826 produced extracellularly an excellent biopolymer flocculant in a large amount when it was grown aerobically in a culture medium containing citric acid, glutamic acid and glycerol as carbon sources. The biopolymer flocculant was an extremely viscous material with a molecular weight over 2Ã—106 by gel permeation chromatography. It could be easily purified from the culture medium by ethanol precipitation. It was shown to be a homopolymer of glutamic acid by amino acid analysis and thin layer chromatography and presumed to be poly-glutamic acid (PGA). This bioflocculant efficiently flocculated various organic and inorganic suspensions. It flocculated a suspended kaolin suspension without cations, although its flocculating activity was synergistically stimulated by the addition of bivalent or trivalent cations Ca2+, Fe3+ and Al3+. However, the synergistic effects of metal cations were most effective at neutral pH ranges. The comparison of the flocculating activity between the present biopolymer and a commercial lower molecular weight product showed that the biopolymer of the present study had much higher activity. The high productivity and versatile applications of PGA make its development as a new biodegradable, harmless, biopolymer flocculant economical and advantageous_."

cheers Darrel


----------



## a1Matt (27 May 2010)

The science is way over my head there   but reading it makes me wonder if pre soaking the akadama in water and some ferts would lessen any 'dust' when it is added to the tank as the biological porcesses around it have had time to do their thing already.


----------



## dw1305 (27 May 2010)

Hi all,
I'm pretty sure the answer to 





> if pre soaking the akadama in water and some ferts would lessen any 'dust' when it is added to the tank as the biological porcesses around it have had time to do their thing already.


 is yes it would.
The chemical bit  is a bit like GH, it's the "divalent" ions - Ca2+ & Mg2+, and the "biopolymer flocculant" is the same disgusting bacterial ooze you get around a rotting fruit.

cheers Darrel


----------



## chris1004 (28 May 2010)

Hi,

Thanks for that in depth answer Darrel, like Matt a lot of the chemistry behind it is beyond my grasp but I did get the gist of it and it goes some way to explaining things. 

When I washed my Akadama I put it back into the bags that it come in still wet and it sat outside for a couple of weeks until I came to use it. Wonder if this had any impact on it?

I did get a very thick white slimy deposit build up on the rubber suckers holding the pipework in the tank and to a lesser degree on the pipework itself. I just washed it off, don't know what it was though, maybe related?

Things are still ok and the plants are definitely growing already, the sagitaria subulata has sent out runners and each now has two new plants, which bearing in mind its only three weeks in from plantlets themselves is amazingly fast growth. Glad I haven't used limnofilia sessiflora as my grower this time as I don't think I'd be able to cope with it.  

Regards, Chris.


----------



## Vaevictus (3 Jun 2010)

Perhaps adding a load of seachem prime will help? It says on the bottle it deactivates ammonia and nitrite compounds


----------



## Kosh42-EFG (4 Jun 2010)

Vaevictus said:
			
		

> It says on the bottle it deactivates ammonia and nitrite compounds



Hmm... In terms of scientific language "deactivates" sounds slightly woolly to me... But after reading this book (highly recommended read) I am sceptical of a lot of pseudo-scientific claims...


----------



## Anonymous (4 Jun 2010)

Block the light entering in your tank and cover the surface with Eichornia crasispes or Pistia Stratiotes (better the first), try to have some light over your plants but not into the thank so that they could grow ok, add some nitrifying bacteria solutions like JBL Denitrol or Tetra Safe Start double dose every day, don't do water changes and keep the equipments on (filters etc) .. you should be alright in a week or two with loads of floating plants to share .

Good luck.


----------



## chris1004 (4 Jun 2010)

Hi,

Everything has settled down really well now and appears to be stable, test kits showing zero levels of both ammonia and Nitrite for over a week now. The tank has a really 'polished' look about it which I'm really happy with but that could be due to the Purigen in my filter the Akadama or both. The plants are seemingly happy with most showing good 'new' growth. Noticeably and kind of how you would expect some of the Crypts are slower at responding but I haven't had any more crypt melt yet (fingers still crossed) and they look pretty healthy in general and some are showing new growth particularly the Parva which I thought would be the last to respond, shows how little I know.

I've managed to keep algae at bay thus far but with algae I've kind of got to the feeling that its only lent at the best of times, keeping on top of it seems to be what matters. Still I'm on top of it at the moment so I've got to be happy with that. Still dosing flourish excel to supplement the near yellow DC but at half the dosage level that I was at start up.

I've put 5 Oto's , 8 Botia Striatas and 12 Bleeding Heart tetras in now to add a little interest and they are all fine.

I've now settled back down to the normal EI regime of 50% weekly water changes but I'm keeping a close eye on things and will be ready and willing to react accordingly if I see anything untoward. 

I'm determined to keep on top of this tank right from the word go. Will update this post again in a month or so's time.    

Regards, Chris.


----------



## chris1004 (18 Jun 2010)

Hi, 

Two weeks on from the last post and everything is going really well with no further issues what so ever. All plants are now showing good healthy growth. 

Thank you James for the time that you've spent and for showing us the way forward with an economy substrate that works and works well.

Regards, Chris.


----------



## chrisfraser05 (26 Jun 2010)

Thanks for posting your experiance bud. I'll find this one really helpfull when it comes to doing mine


----------



## Always Broke (26 Jun 2010)

I must have had the same thing in my set up as its the same as yours. As I had no fish I did not test the water at all. I still have not tested it but all must be well as the plants are fine.
Interesting read


----------

