# please help identify whats causing my problems



## johnson529 (10 Jun 2010)

hi everyone.

this is my first post here I was going to introduce myself and my tank ealrier but I've been putting it off and putting it off. That is until now I've come across problems and need help asap. My tanks been set up since the 21st may and been planted for 13 days.

the tank is 24" x 15" x 15" and is filtered by an enheim 2213 classic external filter with hydor inline heater. I also have a newave 1000 powerhead to help with flow as my filter seems to give poor flow.

It is lit by an aquaone T5 overtank 3 x 25w (2 x white lights and 1 x blue light) the light is on from 1500 until 2300

I have a pressurised Co2 FE system which comes on at 1400 and goes off at 2200 and is set keeping a drop checker to light yellow.

my substrate is eco-complete with sand on top and I fertilize the tank with tropica plant nutrition+ 5ml every day (EI method)

So far I've done 2 water changes (more than 50%) and have a 3rd scheduled for saturday.

The tank is planted with Numerous Echinodorus Bleheri (broad leaf amazon swords), Numerous Vallisnera, Some java moss, 2 and a half pots of HC, Pogostemon Helferi, Alternanthera Reineckii.

until now all has been well but today it has come out with brown algae on the leaves and also the last few days has seen the amazons and vallis go start to die. not sure why as nothing has changed. I'll try to post photos to give you a better idea what i mean, but any advice would be great

thanks


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## andyh (10 Jun 2010)

Dont panic, sometimes in new set ups this happens and can be contributed to a non mature filter etc. Just keep doing what your doing and things will improve.

Couple of tips though, 
1. try to do at least a couple of water changes a week at the beginning, at least until the tank is little mature.
2. Remove what algae you can.
3. Reduce your lighting period to say 6-7 hrs and also light intensity run 2 tubes instead until tank is more mature

This will all help

andyh


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (10 Jun 2010)

andyh said:
			
		

> Dont panic, sometimes in new set ups this happens and can be contributed to a non mature filter etc. Just keep doing what your doing and things will improve.
> 
> Couple of tips though,
> 1. try to do at least a couple of water changes a week at the beginning, at least until the tank is little mature.
> ...



Hi

Andy advise is spot on and I would like to add a 4th if i may, buy some little otto's as they love to eat brown algae
which is diatoms - diatoms usually appears in new tank set ups.

Regards
paul.


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## johnson529 (11 Jun 2010)

wow cheers guys you've helped ease my mind no end! even the plants dieing off???? is this usual? after been ok for the first week or so?


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## johnson529 (11 Jun 2010)

http://img816.imageshack.us/i/dsc01876.jpg/[/img]


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## johnson529 (11 Jun 2010)

hmmmmm can someone diagnose an easy way go put pics on? my effort seems to have failed


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## Garuf (11 Jun 2010)

I think I see your problem, your tank appears to be getting a whole lot of natural light.


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## johnson529 (11 Jun 2010)

Its not getting too much where it is I just think the picture makes it look that way. I could be very wrong though. Here's another picture to show you why I think that. The curtains stop most of the light through the day when they're opened. The gaps arent there any more either theyre pulled back with hooks.







thanks for your replies. What was I doing wrong with the pics I tried uploading?


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## ceg4048 (11 Jun 2010)

johnson529 said:
			
		

> the tank is 24" x 15" x 15" and is filtered by an enheim 2213 classic external filter with hydor inline heater. I also have a newave 1000 powerhead to help with flow as my filter seems to give poor flow.
> 
> It is lit by an aquaone T5 overtank 3 x 25w (2 x white lights and 1 x blue light) the light is on from 1500 until 2300
> 
> ...


Hi,
   75 watts T5 over a 20 gallon tank is too much. You have used up the energy reserves of the plants and that's a likely reason that they have started to perish. Disable 2 bulbs for now. That will lower the stress, will reduce the CO2/nutrient uptake demand and should resolve most of your issues.

Cheers,


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## johnson529 (11 Jun 2010)

thanks for the reply ceg. I've removed on of the white lights from my unit leaving me a blue light and a white light in there. hopefully this should solve the problem.

also as stated above should I reduce my photoperiod to 6 hours aswell as removing 1 light?


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## Anonymous (11 Jun 2010)

I think you are using saltwater aquarium lights, right?  :?


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## ceg4048 (11 Jun 2010)

johnson529 said:
			
		

> thanks for the reply ceg. I've removed on of the white lights from my unit leaving me a blue light and a white light in there. hopefully this should solve the problem.
> 
> also as stated above should I reduce my photoperiod to 6 hours aswell as removing 1 light?


Well, it's up to you. The bottom line is that the less light you have the more quickly you will solve your problem, so it will take twice as long to solve your problem using 2 bulbs than it would if you only use a single bulb. Your fundamental problem is excessive light. If you use a single bulb then you don't have to worry about the photoperiod as much.

Cheers,


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## johnson529 (11 Jun 2010)

You could be right there, I think it might be more suited for a saltwater system having just googled a little. Would I be wrong in thinking that the 2 sunlight tubes (or 1 as I have in at the minute) are able to sustain plants? 

Also are blue lights used for marines only? and what is their purpose? I left it on thinking blue light wouldn't affect plants or algae much as they dont seem all that bright?

I appreciate all the time your taking out to reply to me and help my tank situation


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## ceg4048 (11 Jun 2010)

johnson529 said:
			
		

> You could be right there, I think it might be more suited for a saltwater system...


No. This is an illusion. Your problem is not related to whether the lights are blue or green or red. Your problem has only to do with the total net energy being delivered to the surface of the leaf and the inability for those leaves to process the energy as a result of your poor CO2/flow/distribution techniques. Your plants do not care what color the bulb is and you will not see any advantage of using one color bulb versus another. Using 2 white bulbs will do just as much damage as using 1 white bulb + 1 blue bulb.



			
				johnson529 said:
			
		

> Also are blue lights used for marines only? and what is their purpose? I left it on thinking blue light wouldn't affect plants or algae much as they dont seem all that bright?


There is a very good reason that blue bulbs seem dim to you. That is because the human visual cortex filters blue and red more than it filters green. Pink and blue bulbs therefore "seem" dimmer because you are more "blind" to those wavelengths. But just because your eyes are less sensitive to blue it does not mean that they are delivering less energy. Your eyes can't see UV at all, yet these UV are the wavelengths that will fry your skin to a crisp if you spend too much time in the sun.

Plants do not have eyes and therefore do not process light in the same limited way that we do. They use the energy of light + CO2 + Water to make sugar. If you cheat the plant of any one of these three items the system fails. Right now you have plenty of light, and plenty of water but you are not supplying enough CO2. When you can supply enough CO2 to match the light you will have a balanced system that can produce enough sugar to maintain the health of the plant. Because you have broken the system by not supplying enough CO2 the plants have become sick. This is why they are dying and being attacked by algae. Lowering the light energy allows the plants to use the limited CO2 that you are presently providing.

For further details on blue light have a read of these threads:
http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=7801
http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=6794

Cheers,


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## johnson529 (11 Jun 2010)

Thanks for the links to them threads. They were a great read and everything you just said is of great help. With regards to having limited Co2 how can this be? I've moved the drop checker to different parts of the aquarium and its almost always yellow so I was under the impression that the co2 level and nutrients levels (5ml of tropica plant nutrition= a day) were more than adequate.


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## ceg4048 (11 Jun 2010)

Hi,
   This can easily be because your flow and distribution may be poor and may not deliver the CO2 and nutrients to the surface of the leaf at a pace that is adequate to sustain sugar production relative to the pace of production that is initiated by the level of lighting. It may be that for the level of lighting you have imposed, your injection rate may need to be much higher in order to force feed the leaves with sufficient CO2 to match the required rate of sugar production. You can think of sugar production in the plant as if it were an automated bakery with an assembly line. The lighting level is a throttle that controls the speed of the line. High light means that the line is racing along and so in order to keep pace, the nutrients and CO2 need to be delivered and placed on the line as quickly as the line is moving. If the raw ingredients are not inserted onto the moving assembly line fast enough then production of sugar is disrupted.

Therefore, at very high lighting levels the concentration of nutrients/CO2 needs to be high enough that they are available at the speed demanded by the light. No one ever said that you can use any lighting level and yet still get away with sub-par flow or sub-par CO2. Having a green dropchecker, or having 5ml TPN does not guarantee anything. That only happens if everything else in the tank is at a level that enables the plant to produce sugar at the commanded speed.

This is why I am suggesting that you slow everything down. Reduce the lighting to a sustainable level to match your CO2 capabilities at this time. When you develop the ability and technique to saturate the tank with massive levels of CO2/nutrients then you will be able to support any lighting level you choose. But right now you need to crawl, then walk, then run.

There are loads of threads discussing CO2 and flow, which are actually the most difficult and most important parameters in a high tech tank. Check these out when you have time:

http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2784

http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=1167

http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=10640

http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=8867

Cheers,


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