# If it's yellow, let it mellow and RO is the devil



## Skatersav (14 Mar 2012)

Well, with the impending desertification of the south east of England, I have taken the decision to do my bit and cut RO out of my water changes.  I have already reduced it to 1/4 of my water changes, but given the vast quantities of water wasted through the production of just 25 litres of RO water (which is what I need to produce for my 100litre weekly water change) I feel like even at this reduced level I am contributing to the destruction of the World.  I fear for the livelihood of my fish and my plants but must place the needs of the many ahead of the needs of the few.  I will be cutting down my consumption to 1/8th this week and eradicate it altogether from next week.  I am using London water and keep Denison barbs, Corys and those wee algae eaters that everyone loves (Ocelots?  Surely that's a Central American wildcat).  If anyone has any views on this please feel free to let me know.  I live in Hammersmith so I'd love to hear from other London tank keepers.

As an aside, I was talking to a water engineer about rain water harvesting.  I was always concerned that rainwater in London would be too heavily laden with poisons to use in a fish tank, but apparently its only the first bit of a rain storm that is a problem, the pollution apparently being "washed" out of the air quite quickly and so even in an urban environment it is safe to use rainwater just so long as you ditch the first half hour's worth (this was his estimation and has no basis in scientific experiment).  Once again, views very welcome.


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## Matt Warner (14 Mar 2012)

I don't think that your RO water is the problem. I think all of London's water main leaks is the problem and that the south east is the most overly populated part of the country    Oh and your idea of harvesting water would be great, if there was actually any water to harvest. I've never known it to be so dry for so long and personally I am actually hoping for rain!


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## ghostsword (14 Mar 2012)

I have actually moved to RO water now, leave it overnight and get a 20l of RO ready for WC.

Yes, ethically sounds wrong, but shouldn't the government force thames water to fix the leaks in the first place? 




___________________________


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## Skatersav (15 Mar 2012)

I agree, but would add that the UKG have effectively forced the water companies to fix the leaks.  They are on a massive pipe replacement programme hence all the street works but this will take years and the problem we have is unfortunately immediate.


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## dw1305 (15 Mar 2012)

Hi all,


> I have taken the decision to do my bit and cut RO out of my water changes


 I don't use RO for this reason, and also try and do as much as I can to reduce water wastage.  I've always used rain-water, and never had any problems, but I've always lived some-where rural. If we have a run of drier summers I could see a situation where my 5 water butts (1000 litres of water storage) isn't a large enough reservoir.

I think for those of us who live in the South and East  we are going to have to get used to both water shortages and higher prices for the water that we use. As an example Cambridge has a very low rainfall "_At the Botanic Garden, the 30-year average annual rainfall from 1970 to 2000 was just 557 mm_" almost exactly the same as Jerusalem, and making it drier than Rome, Perth or Seville.

cheers Darrel


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## Radik (15 Mar 2012)

I think there are some RO systems without waste or.. minimal waste water if one is interested. They just cost more than normal RO units. Also having 3 membranes in parallel significantly reduces waste water vs pure water productions at least what I observed. Then using pressure pump is a must to get best of it.


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## Matt Warner (15 Mar 2012)

dw1305 said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> 
> 
> > I have taken the decision to do my bit and cut RO out of my water changes
> ...



This is something I would like to look at doing. Perhaps using 50% rain water to 50% tap water mix for water changes. Darrel, do you collect the rain water from the gutters of the roof into your water butts of your house or do you collect it another way? 
I've never used RO water myself, but what percentage of the water used goes to waste?
Cheers


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## ian_m (15 Mar 2012)

Matty1983 said:
			
		

> .. but what percentage of the water used goes to waste?


An expensive and well kept RO unit may manage 4 litres waste to 1 litre of RO water, cheaper ones may be as high as 10:1, which may or may not matter depending if you are or are not on metered water


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## Radik (15 Mar 2012)

Not true, there are units with 1:2 ratio and they are not so expensive for example MERLIN GE RO  I will measure our RO unit


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## ian_m (15 Mar 2012)

Radik said:
			
		

> Not true, there are units with 1:2 ratio and they are not so expensive for example MERLIN GE RO  I will measure our RO unit


They quote 25%-33% efficiency which is 4:1 -> 3:1.


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## dw1305 (16 Mar 2012)

Hi all,
The efficiency of the RO unit is also dependent on how salty the water flowing in is. You can get pure RO from sea water with the right set up. Basically warmer, less salty water, at high pressure, produces less waste and more RO. Personally I would be surprised if any domestic systems gives much better than 3:1- waste:RO.



> Darrel, do you collect the rain water from the gutters of the roof into your water butts of your house or do you collect it another way?


Yes, I collect it from the main house roof. You can get a system which lets the first few litres run away, but I collect it all.
Details here: <http://www.reuk.co.uk/First-Flush-System-Rainwater-Harvesting.htm>.

These are my water butts. This is my "pond filling butt" (there is another butt on the other front down-pipe).



 

and the back garden.





And this is how I "check" my rain-water with _Daphnia_.



> _I don't treat my rainwater in anyway either, I have 2 water butts connected together with a filter sponge in the downpipe on the first butt, I take the water from the second butt. I do a small volume water change every day, so I just leave what I need in the kitchen during the winter overnight to warm up, in the summer I just use it straight from the butt.
> 
> I did think about running it through an activated carbon filter, but eventually I went for the option of adding some Daphnia to the water butt. When I decant the water I need I just make sure the Daphnia are looking healthy, healthy Daphnia the water is OK, also gives "food for free".
> 
> ...



cheers Darrel


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## Skatersav (16 Mar 2012)

Great stuff guys.  I was learning from an engineer friend (the same one I mentioned previously) that there are devices which reject the first X% of any rainfall thus preventing the nasty rain from entering your reservoir.  This is only relevant in urbanised areas where the air quality is lower.  Anyone hear of something like this?


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## dw1305 (16 Mar 2012)

Hi all,


> I was learning from an engineer friend (the same one I mentioned previously) that there are devices which reject the first X% of any rainfall thus preventing the nasty rain from entering your reservoir. This is only relevant in urbanised areas where the air quality is lower. Anyone hear of something like this?


There are some low tech. ones in the link.
<http://www.reuk.co.uk/First-Flush-System-Rainwater-Harvesting.htm>





cheers Darrel


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## Skatersav (16 Mar 2012)

Darrel, that's awesome.  I'd never have found that as I didn't know the term "first flush".

Hmmm.  Dare I attempt DIY on this?  I am really quite practically inept so I may have to get my wife involved - she's an engineer.  NO, I must do this myself.  If there is any success here I will post in the Journal section.  If I fail miserably, which must surely be my destiny, then you will not hear from me again.  Thank you for the challenge nevertheless although I fear this project may be a lesson in humility.


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## ian_m (16 Mar 2012)

You can buy these things, the floaty ball type thing that attaches to your drain pipe as I have seen one years ago.

It intersected a section of drain pipe and allowed first wash to pass, then after a certain amount passed rest of water was diverted out of side pipe to your water butt. It also stopped when water butt was full and passed all water down the drain pipe.

Only reason I knew about it was its owner was always fiddling with it, as the ball thing would get slimed up and not float and no water would go into the butt.

Heres one like it. My mates one was parallel to drain pipe (and black).
http://www.rainwaterharvesting.co.uk/filter-first-flush-water-diverter.php


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## PeteA (28 Mar 2012)

I know what you mean, I tend to run around 40 litres of RO a week as my water is quite hard too and my fish prefer it.  Would love to get something a bit more efficient in general - I plonk a space saver box in the middle of my (small) kitchen and run the pure there and waste into the sink.  Would love to have a better set up that has less waste and the pure in a more manageable container.

Oh if you have a garden it will love the waste water


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## Nat N (1 Apr 2012)

Hi everybody,
Another suggestion/idea which somebody will hopefully find useful. Instead of RO water I use de-ionized water. I filter the tap water and thanks to my husband’s brilliant idea how to run tap water through the filtering unit I don’t waste any tap water at all. Of course, I must say that I use this de-ionized water mostly for topping up evaporation and only sometimes to dilute the waterchange water. Still, I think this may be an idea for somebody.


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## dw1305 (2 Apr 2012)

Hi all,


> Instead of RO water I use de-ionized water. I filter the tap water and thanks to my husband’s brilliant idea how to run tap water through the filtering unit I don’t waste any tap water at all


 These anion/cation de-ionising resin units work, but they are quite an expensive option if you buy disposable filters, you also need a TDS meter to tell you when the resin needs changing. You can re-charge the resins with sodium hydroxide (NaOH) and hydrochloric acid (HCl), but it is quite an unpleasant task, and not one I'd take on lightly.

<http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-09/nftt/index.php>

cheers Darrel


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## PeteA (3 Apr 2012)

Nat N said:
			
		

> Hi everybody,
> Another suggestion/idea which somebody will hopefully find useful. Instead of RO water I use de-ionized water. I filter the tap water and thanks to my husband’s brilliant idea how to run tap water through the filtering unit I don’t waste any tap water at all. Of course, I must say that I use this de-ionized water mostly for topping up evaporation and only sometimes to dilute the waterchange water. Still, I think this may be an idea for somebody.



Hi,

Ok, being a bit thick can you explain what/how you've got as a set up?  I'm concious that the sheer amount of water I pump into the sink could help offset any increased cost

cheers

Pete


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## Nat N (10 Apr 2012)

> Hi,
> 
> Ok, being a bit thick can you explain what/how you've got as a set up? I'm concious that the sheer amount of water I pump into the sink could help offset any increased cost
> 
> ...



Hi,
I started with using API filter. This proved to be relatively expensive and instead of buying branded  cartridges I thought I will start buying just resins and filling them in myself. I contacted one of the RO water filters manufacturer in the UK. They were a little interested at first but when I explained what I was after – a unit to put resins in and the resins – they lost any interest and did not reply to my emails. 
After some research, I contacted one of the manufacturers of de-ionized water filters. They supply, say, large hotel chains where a lot of ironing is done and de-ionized water is used in irons. These were very-very helpful. We discussed my requirements and they came up with the set which I am currently using. It looks like a RO filter but does not need plumbing. One more problem was how to create sufficient but not too much water flow from the tap to push the water through the filter. 
My husband came with a genius idea which possibly deserves a copyright in case these will ever become a commercial product. He used one of the small internal filters for a simple “device”. So, now I use two buckets. One filled with tap water and another for filtered. When needed I just position them next to each other, filter the water (no waste) and whatever small amount of unfiltered water is left can be used for whatever – even pouring it down the sink only wastes a liter or two. 
Now the cost. The unit with resins and everything cost me just over £100 including delivery and I am yet to see how long it lasts. I opted for colour changing resin so I will know when it needs replacing. With my tap water not being too hard and moderate use, I suspect, it will last well into 12 or more months.  Afterwards I will need to buy resins only, not the unit and not the cartridges...
Of course, this remains to be seen how expensive that is but I am pleased with the results so far – and especially with the fact that the under sink cupboard can be used for normal household stuff – I do not have a big kitchen...


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## Morgan Freeman (10 Apr 2012)

dw1305 said:
			
		

> I don't use RO for this reason, and also try and do as much as I can to reduce water wastage.  I've always used rain-water, and never had any problems, but I've always lived some-where rural. If we have a run of drier summers I could see a situation where my 5 water butts (1000 litres of water storage) isn't a large enough reservoir.
> 
> I think for those of us who live in the South and East  we are going to have to get used to both water shortages and higher prices for the water that we use. As an example Cambridge has a very low rainfall "_At the Botanic Garden, the 30-year average annual rainfall from 1970 to 2000 was just 557 mm_" almost exactly the same as Jerusalem, and making it drier than Rome, Perth or Seville.
> 
> cheers Darrel



One of the reasons I've always avoided installing an RO system. As a slight aside, one of the benefits for me to the walstad/low tech approach is the low energy usage compared to high tech set ups. I simply don't feel comfortable wasting such amounts of energy on a hobby, nor large amounts of water.


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## michj (10 Apr 2012)

hi 
has anyone considered setting up a grey water system at home?

i am hopeing to be copying a system one of my brothers has built at his home over the next few months (hopefuly completed before they start installing water meters) i know the grey water wouldnt be any good for a tank unless you went the extra mile on the filtration which with the expertise on here shouldnt be to hard.

a basic description of his set up is that he has plumbed his bath/shower to a sunken water butt the grey water is then passed through progressively finer filter material and finally sponge (pond filter blocks) into a secondary tank which is airated and cycled through a pond uv filter, he experimented with different grades of gravel/sand and the adition of airation,uv and sponge and found that the water didnt seem to putrify if kept for longer periods of time (not indefinate i think) .
he uses this to water his garden via sunken micro irrigation pipes and seems to have great results. and flushing the loo
any excess water (after filtration) is piped to a simple readbed filter at the end of his garden, this he uses in his pond and veg garden.

it is quite a bit of work to set up but depending on where you source youre materials can be fairly inexpensive (gumtree and freecyle are great for this as well as cheap second hand tanks   )


i know it deviates slightly from the ro issue , but if you can save water in one way then it all helps i guess, who knows with a little tweeking you may arrive at something potable  

michael


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## dw1305 (11 Apr 2012)

Hi all,


> has anyone considered setting up a grey water system at home?


 I'd like too, but we haven't got anywhere to put the water tank, and a retro-fit is quite difficult. In a new build it should be easy. I'd have a look at "Freewater UK ltd" for some ideas.

cheers Darrel


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## michj (11 Apr 2012)

dw1305 said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> 
> 
> > has anyone considered setting up a grey water system at home?
> ...



hey Darrel
i know the set up  i described sounds huge (i only realised that when i re-read it    ) if you live in a flat then i think it would be near impossible, my brothers garden is about 30ft he got round it by sinking everything and useing small pond/aquarium pumps to shift the water which is what im thinking of. the only adjustment i plan to make is a larger reed bed . there are alot of sites around that sell what in effect appears to be a cross between an ro filter and a canister aquarium filter.

is sinking the tank a no go?


michael


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