# Fish Depression Is Not a Joke



## zozo (3 Apr 2018)

*Fish Depression Is Not a Joke*

Something i already believe in for the biggest part of beeing active in this hobby, about 40 years.. Tho it never was and even today it still isn't realy open to any discussion for the majority of people. Always experienced lots of people reacting to it in a cynical manner and always kinda downsizing it and joking it away. Or laugh it away as humanizing pets behaivor, which is the most common excuse. Like you are the idiot who talks to his fish. 

Holding my ground firmly for all this time earned me the nickname Dr. Doolitlle, the nutty guy who believes he can talk to animals. Funny actualy and always felt pitty, more for the animal, but also a bit for the people not understanding, that it actualy aint at all about talking and not about humanizing.  It's observing behaivor, interpreting this with an open mind and giving the benefit of the doubt. And respect this for as long as you do not  know. Not particularly scientific, but at least it's open minded and keeping realistic possibilities in the back of your mind.

But at last, it took a very long time for some sceintist finaly to take the mater seriously and study the subject in controlled conditions with cotrolled stimuli.




> Fish are one of the most highly utilised vertebrate taxa by humans; they are harvested from wild stocks as part of global fishing industries, grown under intensive aquaculture conditions, are the most common pet and are widely used for scientific research. But fish are seldom afforded the same level of compassion or welfare as warm-blooded vertebrates.* Part of the problem is the large gap between people’s perception of fish intelligence and the scientific reality*. *This is an important issue because public perception guides government policy*.


 

Unfortunately the last bold sentence still holds very true.. It also reflects in the advices people still get from the LFS today and for example in the price of pioneer <Culum Browns> book <Fish Cognition and Behavior> 

Maybe not that important to buy and read such an expensive book about it if you are the hobbyist. I didn't because i believe it contents already long before it was ever written. I do not realy need to know factual details for something i already believe since childhood. But for anybody having troubles with this idea, just keep in mind. By now you are most likely prooven very wrong. 

Some more interesting reads about it

<How do we know wheter fish have feelings too?>

<Fish Are Sentient and Emotional Beings and Clearly Feel Pain>

<Fish can recognise human faces, new research shows>

<Fish are sentient animals who form friendships and experience 'positive emotions'>

<Functional aspects of emotions in fish>

Have fun!  And hopefully this will make you love your fish even more than you ever did before.


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## Edvet (3 Apr 2018)

Don't know about emotions, but for me the first thing in a tank will always be: will it be "good" for the fish. So i will try to have them feel as "comfortable" ( pH, temp, hiding places,amount of light, waterquality, foodstuffs)) as possible. In part that's why i feel in some scapes fish will not be happy, and why i prefer "biotope-like"setups.


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## Tim Harrison (3 Apr 2018)

Not sure about sentient thought, but I believe fish respond to environmental stimuli, and perhaps how a species responds is determined by the niche they are hardwired to exploit.
Goldfish probably recognise faces and maybe associate a human presence with feeding time. And I know certain chiclids, for instance, can behave in a similar way.

As for shoaling fish like zebras behaving differently if individuals are isolated from the rest, I don't think that's so much an emotional response as hardwired survival instinct, there is safety in numbers.

Either way, although I don't really agree that fish should necessarily be given human status, I do think that they should be treated with respect and have a right to a life free from suffering.
As a fish keeper I've always done my utmost to provide the best environment and conditions I can for them. I guess I must be doing something right since most live much longer than they are supposed to.


Edvet said:


> In part that's why i feel in some scapes fish will not be happy, and why i prefer "biotope-like"setups.


I agree with that too, it's the main reason I'm not particularly a fan of Iwagumi.


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## zozo (3 Apr 2018)

Edvet said:


> Don't know about emotions



99% doesn't know of his/her neighbours emotions.. We know all about our own and can only believe that what the other says feels the same for everybody. But in reality we don't know, we only describe feelings in words and there are more words than feelings.

Every argument stating they might have not is as loosely founded as stating they have.. But we as humans live and we have and our idea that emotions can't excist without consciousness and reasoning is again also as losely founded.

Doubt is our pitfall and giving benefit of the doubt is just a saying used randomly when it's beneficialy applicable and probably very painfull for the survival of our consciousness to make it a common practice..


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## Smells Fishy (3 Apr 2018)

I'm definitely on board with you.

This is one of my favourite books, you'll love it.

https://www.thebookpeople.co.uk/web...=pla&msclkid=f2bfa3b3229814f051d0f9704f6e8a05


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## zozo (3 Apr 2018)

Tim Harrison said:


> given human status



Should be factualy reviced..  It's  not given its taken.. We can't get around it, we are the very top predator and a very cruel one as well. That's what we became, are and probably will be for ever. But that doesn't mean we should keep indulging and poisson ourselfs with dishonesty and unfounded believes and doubts to excuse our actions to keep a self invented status alive.

Don't get me wrong..  These thoughts came to my mind while chopping off my own chickens heads..


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## BubblingUnder (3 Apr 2018)

All Dr. Pittman did was chemically alter his Zebra fish so it cared less about the environment it was in. You couldn't infer it was depressed. I'm sure if you gave most well adjusted people anti depressants they would get a temporary boost. The difference between 'feeling a bit down' & 'clinically depressed' is a scale & most people don't need anti depressants to function in their environment.
The Zebra fish was exhibiting normal behaviour when it found itself in sub-optimal conditions. There was no cover in its tank (plants/rocks) or the cover provided by other members of a fish shoal so it hugged the largest hard/deep surface (the tank bottom). All Dr Pittman proved was that you can drug a fish & get your study published in the New York Times (I wonder if it was sponsored by PETA)


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## tam (3 Apr 2018)

In the UK at least, fish owners have as much of a duty of care as dog or cat owners i.e.

_(1)A person commits an offence if he does not take such steps as are reasonable in all the circumstances to ensure that the needs of an animal for which he is responsible are met to the extent required by good practice.

(2)For the purposes of this Act, an animal's needs shall be taken to include—
(a)its need for a suitable environment,
(b)its need for a suitable diet,
(c)its need to be able to exhibit normal behaviour patterns,
(d)any need it has to be housed with, or apart from, other animals, and
(e)its need to be protected from pain, suffering, injury and disease.
_
Doesn't matter whether you think they have emotions or not, you need to provide an environment that is suitable for their needs (appropriate water, heating, lighting), a suitable diet, the space and facilities for them to exhibit normal behaviour (hiding places, substrate for diggers etc.), house them with companions if they are shoallers, and actively protect them from harm (no ramping up the CO2 until they are gasping).


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## Tim Harrison (3 Apr 2018)

zozo said:


> Should be factualy reviced..  It's not given its taken..


Yes, I take your point. The whole debate is a philosophical minefield. Respecting animal rights whilst at the same time eating them is never going to be an ethical picnic. However, I believe that animals have the right to dignity and a life free from suffering.
In terms of mistreatment I have a similar philosophy to @tam. Whether animal intelligence, sentience, and emotion etc are scientifically proven or just anthropomorphic projections is largely irrelevant because there is no reason why the interests of animals can not be given the same consideration as humans. Although, occasionally dressing your cat up in a funny outfit can be very amusing...


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## zozo (3 Apr 2018)

Tim Harrison said:


> The whole debate is a philosophical minefield.


It actualy doesn't need to be. It is a debate where each induvidual in reality doesn't know what he's talking about. . But in between the grey erea of the Creationist and Evolutionist and maybe the standing at the sideline watching agnostic and atheistic view it indeed is. Based on a not very steady founded deep rooted ancient believe system.. Giving some (probably evolutionist) scientists the idea to perform the impossible task to proof that animals are more similar to us than we dare to believe. IMHO and not to be judgemental and only trying to be honnest to myself and everybody around me.. It is the very same deep rooted ancient believe system that grew the arrogance in people to think it is irrelevant.

I think is is very relevant and it will only benefit us all, to honestly look at the only facts we realy have so far. I dare to go that far to say it is crucial for our survival on this planet to start thinking differnetly about the creatures we live with. And you still can eat them with respect, that's not the issue..

We are on and from this planet.. We live here together and we have emotions.. It holds more honesty and relevacy to believe that everything else that lives here as well probably has equal emotions as well. It needs no proof, it's a simple harmless believe and not even that difficult because believing is somethig we are darn good at. There is no factual evidence and nothing else but an ancient deep rooted arrogance to doubt it and believe otherwise. 

But this view is likely much to Holistic for many.  Too Avatar!!...  Sorry.....


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## Edvet (3 Apr 2018)

My view on this is: Animals don't have rights, animal keepers have duties.


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## BubblingUnder (3 Apr 2018)

zozo said:


> But this view is likely much to Holistic for many. Too Avatar!!...



That's an awful lot of words............
1) Decide what fish you want
2) Research their needs
3) Provide the environment they required
You won't go far wrong........



Tim Harrison said:


> Although, occasionally dressing your cat up in a funny outfit can be very amusing...



(However cats in costume are funny )


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## Tim Harrison (3 Apr 2018)

zozo said:


> But this view is likely much to Holistic for many.  Too Avatar!!...  Sorry.....


The Gia Hypothesis...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_hypothesis?
Utilitarianism...http://www.animal-ethics.org/utilitarianism/ 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism?
I guess all part of the bigger social justice debate...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice


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## zozo (3 Apr 2018)

Tim Harrison said:


> The Gia Hypothesis...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_hypothesis?
> Utilitarianism...http://www.animal-ethics.org/utilitarianism/
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism?
> I guess all part of the bigger social justice debate...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice



Yes..  Did read about it before exept don't realy remember that Gaia hypothesis.. Thanks for the links.


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## sciencefiction (3 Apr 2018)

Definition of *Sentience* is the capacity to feel, perceive or experience subjectively

Definition of *Empathy* is the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

I think there are animal lovers and there are other animal lovers. Majority of people have lost their ability to feel empathy towards other human beings and especially animals, least likely fish. People confuse respect and sympathy for animals with empathy but the latter is not a learnt trait/behavior. You either have empathy or you don't, When you don't, you're very unlikely to see fish or other animals as equally sentient as one self.

There are many recorded cases of fish helping humans in need and humans helping fish in need. And there are cases where a fish ate a human and a human ate a fish....So why do we humans feel so pompous about ourselves?

I know some people don't like seeing humanity in this way but I consider humans the highest form of parasite. Let's see the definition of parasite below...... 

*Parasite:* an organism which lives in or on another organism (its host) *and benefits by deriving nutrients at the other's expense.
*
Does that remind you of humans in anyway.... 
.


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## roadmaster (4 Apr 2018)

Always amused how quickly this topic which comes up frequently quickly becomes soap box for all thing's philosophical..
Believe as other's have stated ,,that providing for our pet's as best we can,is about all there is and should be primary concern in this particular hobby.
Plenty of room for improvement  all around would be my unsolicited view or opinion.
I can see increases in fishes health and or activity level's as direct result of maint on my glass boxes of water.
Can observe negative reactions as well with lapse maint.
As to whether fishes can express humanistic qualities,, Much room for interpretation which I happily leave for other's to muse over.
Can say without question, that the beliefs shared ,are not always shared by other's.


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## Glenda Steel (13 Apr 2018)

Thank you Zozo for posting this!  I recently experienced a 'sulking' unhappy Endler's Guppy when new tank mates were introduced, he started by hiding at the bottom of the tank and being aggressive to the others (not the usual play display).  At first I assumed he was ill but after reading a few posts on similar experiences I do believe it was unhappiness.  Needless to say over the following days he gradually got used to the newcomers and is now part of the little gang again, thoroughly enjoying life as only Endler's do!  I've always thought that it was just a 'female thing' to apply human emotions to living creatures, but if anyone takes time to really _observe_ their pet's behaviour you can pick up on how they're feeling.  Thank you for posting links to the books, I shall take a good look!


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## zozo (13 Apr 2018)

Glenda Steel said:


> apply human emotions to living creatures



Well that's the thing.. We are the only ones and came up with the Term Human Emotions.. I guess that's an ancient supremacy gen still lurking.
But one day maybe we can all come to the consensus we are actualy only talking about Emotions and there is nothing particularly supreme nor human about it.

It's a heart, Gut, Bowel, Nerve and Brain thing triggered by Neuro Transmitters.. And all that lives has this or else it can't live.. We can't know what emotions it experiences.. It might as well surpass ours by a factor 1000.

IMHO real supremacy hides in not thinking lesser of what lives with you.  It doesn't mean you shouldn't swap a housefly.. You just shouldn't think of it as a zombie with an erection and apetite for food only..


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## Glenda Steel (13 Apr 2018)

zozo said:


> We are the only ones and came up with the Term Human Emotions.. I guess that's an ancient supremacy gen still lurking.


I couldn't agree more!!!  I've always thought that we should stop looking for martians and start looking in the ocean!


zozo said:


> It doesn't mean you shouldn't swap a housefly


As someone trying to practise Zen Buddhism I disagree there zozo (though when it comes to mosquitos I do struggle)!  However I do agree every living thing deserves to be happy and I for one will strive to make sure the critters/plants etc in our care are.  Right that's my Yoda, 


roadmaster said:


> soap box for all thing's philosophical


over!


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## zozo (13 Apr 2018)

Glenda Steel said:


> As someone trying to practise Zen Buddhism I disagree there zozo (though when it comes to mosquitos I do struggle)! However I do agree every living thing deserves to be happy and I for one will strive to make sure the critters/plants etc in our care are. Right that's my Yoda,



Yes me too, till i get hungry...  Everybody has to make his own choices in this and absolutely OK to disagree.. Zen Buddhism is nice and has a lot of beautifull ancient wisdom and fragments we can use for the best.. So personaly i like to filter out what i can use and apply in the society i'm (indirectly) forced to live in. The majority of Zen Buddhisme only works if you live as a secluded monk in the Himalaya and not in the overcrowded little country i live in.  No pun intended, that's my personal opinion on it and many surely will not agree, i'm ok with that.

I killed my own chicken to make a delicious soup or buy animal products others did kill for me.. I'm ok with the idea that i'm a predatory meat eater that needs to kill.. But for me that still doesn't mean that i try to excuse my kill to think lesser of it's capability to feel emotions as i do. Because i don't and can't know.. And i refuse to lie to myself thinking i know.  That would be the dumbest excuse..


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## sciencefiction (13 Apr 2018)

The below study is a bit heavy to read but I have copied a quote that seems the least confusing. Anyway, in other words, fish experience "human like" emotions arising from the individual fish's perception of the situation. More below. 

*Cognitive appraisal of environmental stimuli induces emotion-like states in fish*
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-13173-x


_Emotions have been described as internal brain states associated with expressive behaviours, which humans experience as feelings3. Since animals cannot report the subjective experience of feelings the assessment of emotional states in animals has to rely on the occurrence of specific behaviours associated with internal central states. Thus, from a comparative perspective an emotion can be defined as a brain state, encoded by the activity of specific neural circuits, that is triggered by specific stimuli and that elicits the expression of specific behaviours and other external cues5. From this perspective, the results reported here showing that external stimuli of different valence and salience triggers the expression of specific behavioural profiles associated with specific physiological and neuromolecular states supports the occurrence of emotion-like states in fish. Given that emotional states are often associated with human behaviour this result may sound surprising at first. However, the evolution of affective states (i.e. emotions/mood) in animals has been predicted by theoretical models of adaptive decision-making, since it allows an adjustment of the response to cues of reward and punishment according to the autocorrelation of aversive and appetitive events in the environment and internal condition, rather than using a fixed response threshold. Thus, the modulation of decision-making by core affective states would allow animals to give more efficient responses to a wide range of fitness threatening and fitness enhancing events24,25,26,27. More recently, it has been proposed that these affective states share a number of properties, namely scalability, valence, persistence and generalization, which have been named emotion primitives, that allow their recognition in phylogenetically distant organism, hence opening the study of the biological mechanisms of emotion across different taxa5,6. In a previous study using a conditioned place preference/avoidance paradigm we have shown that Sea Bream exposed to appetitive or aversive stimuli have valence-specific responses (preference vs. avoidance, respectively) that are persistent in time, even when only the CS (i.e. conditioned place) is present28. Thus, in Sea Bream, at least two of these emotion primitives are present.

The fact that in this study the same stimulus presented in a predictable vs. unpredictable way elicited different behavioural, physiological and neuromolecular states suggests that stimulus appraisal by the individual, rather than an intrinsic characteristic of the stimulus, such as its valence, is triggering the observed responses. Therefore, the occurrence of emotion-like states in fish seems to be regulated by the individual’s perception of environmental stimuli. The role of cognitive appraisal in the regulation of stress and emotional states was first proposed in humans and has subsequently been expanded to other animals4,15,16. In fish the occurrence of cognitive appraisal has been documented in different species(e.g.18,28,29,30,31; however, its neural bases have not been investigated yet in fish and the present study provided a new insight into these mechanisms._


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## sciencefiction (15 Apr 2018)

I was watching the below video about dolphin intelligence which reminded me of what one of my hillstream loaches does for food.

https://ihavenotv.com/part-1-conversations-with-dolphins

Instead of bunching up for food with the rest of hillstreams, which means being constantly chased away, he positions himself upside down on the front glass, with his nose stuck against the substrate right where I drop pellets.  I normally feed small NLS pellets which get scattered around the front. So the loach starts probing the substrate with his nose while being stuck on the glass upside down. He may go around like that along the length of the front glass to find the pellets.  Then when he stumbles upon pellets that have fallen near the glass, he lifts them up using his body and the glass to roll them up and he eats them right there, while stuck on the glass, expelling the left over out of his gills. Now if that's not a learnt behavior, I don't know what it is. I doubt it, it's something he had learnt in nature because the same or similar conditions to occur are unlikely(pellets dropped near a vertical glass on a daily basis) I've only seen the one loach doing it and he's a sub-dominant loach, meaning he normally gets bullied away from the food if he were to compete with the rest on the substrate. So he's learnt a trick  I am going to catch it on camera because it is really funny. The first time I saw him I was stumped...


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## zozo (15 Apr 2018)

Than imagine dna testing revealed a Dolphin is closely related to. 





Another nice video shared on facebook by Biopod about the ability of humans communicating with animals on a deeper level than just babbling intelligently.


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## sciencefiction (15 Apr 2018)

zozo said:


> Than imagine dna testing revealed a Dolphin is closely related to



Cows aren't stupid, although we eat them. There was a case I read about years ago. Basically the owner of the cow killed her calf each time for meat.  One year the cow happened to give birth in the field.. As usual, eventually the calf was sacrificed for meat. Then he noticed that the cow never has milk when she comes back from pasture. He was stumped. He followed the cow and he discovered that this particular year the cow had two calves. She brought one to him to kill and left one in the bushes near the field which she fed every day....


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## sciencefiction (15 Apr 2018)

zozo said:


> Another nice video shared on facebook by Biopod about the ability of humans communicating with animals on a deeper level than just babbling intelligently.



That's pretty much shown in the dolphin video also. They can sense one's emotional state on a physical level. Animals have not been studied for that long at all and we're only discovering now things about them.


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## Tim Harrison (15 Apr 2018)

zozo said:


> Than imagine dna testing revealed a Dolphin is closely related to.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well whilst we're on the subject of closely related animals...
There is very little difference between animal DNA and our own. In the case of  the great apes, like chimpanzees, bonobo, and gorillas there is just 1.2 % difference.
However, that's not really the whole story...how those genes are expressed makes a massive difference.


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## sciencefiction (15 Apr 2018)

Tim Harrison said:


> However, that's not really the whole story...how those genes are expressed makes a massive differenc



I think that's what we humans like to think, that we're so different and superior when in fact we're just animals...


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## sciencefiction (21 Apr 2018)

sciencefiction said:


> I was watching the below video about dolphin intelligence which reminded me of what one of my hillstream loaches does for food.
> 
> https://ihavenotv.com/part-1-conversations-with-dolphins
> 
> Instead of bunching up for food with the rest of hillstreams, which means being constantly chased away, he positions himself upside down on the front glass, with his nose stuck against the substrate right where I drop pellets.  I normally feed small NLS pellets which get scattered around the front. So the loach starts probing the substrate with his nose while being stuck on the glass upside down. He may go around like that along the length of the front glass to find the pellets.  Then when he stumbles upon pellets that have fallen near the glass, he lifts them up using his body and the glass to roll them up and he eats them right there, while stuck on the glass, expelling the left over out of his gills. Now if that's not a learnt behavior, I don't know what it is. I doubt it, it's something he had learnt in nature because the same or similar conditions to occur are unlikely(pellets dropped near a vertical glass on a daily basis) I've only seen the one loach doing it and he's a sub-dominant loach, meaning he normally gets bullied away from the food if he were to compete with the rest on the substrate. So he's learnt a trick  I am going to catch it on camera because it is really funny. The first time I saw him I was stumped...




I got him on video,ha,ah..he's so funny. It's now his regular way of eating 1mm NLS pellets, no other loach is doing it..For those that are not seeing what's happening, the loach on the glass is fetching NLS pellets from the substrate.


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## zozo (11 Jul 2018)

sciencefiction said:


> I got him on video,ha,ah..he's so funny. It's now his regular way of eating 1mm NLS pellets, no other loach is doing it..For those that are not seeing what's happening, the loach on the glass is fetching NLS pellets from the substrate.



What i lik ethe most is the background audio..


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## zozo (11 Jul 2018)

Anyway emotions?? Intelligence? Perception? Whatever it is it's mind boggling...


Easy way out? It just was lucky to look like this that's why it servived evolution!?.. Could be... But still remarkable, quite  a few got lucky like that..
Walking stick, the walking leaf, the Chameleon etc. Anyway, what is it?? Emotions.. Intelligence? Perception?.. Is it in our minds? In our genes?.

In our genes? Than you might ask who is it. What is it?. Is it only us?

Nah can't be..


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## Aqua360 (11 Jul 2018)

I tend to think based on my own observation that fish are capable of sentient thought, I mean I don't think they're doing advanced calculus in their heads; and sure there are plenty of fish that are arguably a bit thick and programmed to forage, sleep, hide etc, but on the flip side, fish such as convict cichlids demonstrate keen intelligence, beyond simple instinct that I feel pushes them into at least some kind of thought bracket.


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## zozo (11 Jul 2018)

Aqua360 said:


> I don't think they're doing advanced calculus



But they do...  Simply programmed by nature.. Seen karate kid? Obiwankenobisan catching a fly with chopsticks? A pike does this for breakfast, for dinner and for supper, doesn't even have to think about it.. 

Find your excuse...  But it does...

And than in south america a socker goaly not doing their job well enough is called a Franguero..
A chicken catcher...  Says it all


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## sparkyweasel (11 Jul 2018)

Or Archerfish; their aiming calculations would be very complex if you wrote them out on paper, allowing for refraction, ballistic trajectories, co-ordinating the droplets for simultaneous impact.


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## Aqua360 (12 Jul 2018)

zozo said:


> But they do...  Simply programmed by nature.. Seen karate kid? Obiwankenobisan catching a fly with chopsticks? A pike does this for breakfast, for dinner and for supper, doesn't even have to think about it..
> 
> Find your excuse...  But it does...
> 
> ...



I may have miscommunicated here, I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying, I'm actually supporting it. The advanced calculus is a metaphor for our equivalent daily thought, if that makes sense...

If not don't worry lol


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## zozo (12 Jul 2018)

Aqua360 said:


> I may have miscommunicated here, I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying, I'm actually supporting it. The advanced calculus is a metaphor for our equivalent daily thought, if that makes sense...
> 
> If not don't worry lol



I'm sorry and i understand, i had no intenstion the give you to feeling or idea me thinking you are disagreeing or making fun out of your comment. Just was trying to point out that in nature many of its creations make impossible calculation instinctively all day long without the need of a pocket calculator.. Than actualy needing one or needing a mile of paper to write it down firts supported by a team of professors to adchieve less than have of that isn't that advanced at all. But in contrast with our physical natural abilities building an airplain making us think we are,  on top of everything. But you calling it a metaphor makes me laugh again and is so true.. 

Mean while i was spraying my grass in my garden. And there is a pergola with a grape growing over it and behind that hangs a shade sail covering most of the grass. Than there is a fence with a 10x15cm mesh standing in front of  a shrub. I saw a blackbird comming around the corner of the house and flying by at full speed under the grape, under the shade sail, through the 10x15cm mesh fence that is barely bigger than the bird and through a hole in the dense brush comming out at the other end landing on the sheds roof. All in a split second, i looked through the hole and it didn't have a straight  path to come out again.. The little birds speed and trajectory completely nocked me off my feet. All this absolutely amazing and impossible flying skills in that little pea brain with such ease and speed, than what more is it capable off calculating.  Even if the bird knew the route and practiced a few times each day, it still would be mind boggling adchievement..


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## sciencefiction (13 Jul 2018)

zozo said:


> What i lik ethe most is the background audio..



You know, I've been using my computer without speakers for quite a while now. I've got no clue about the background sound


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