# Filter To Remove The Need For 'Prime'?



## jagillham (19 May 2015)

In my quest for an ever more automated tank, I have the ability to fill direct from the mains and empty direct into the drains.

So far I've been using an RO filter with both pipes going into the tank. No additives etc. Not had any problems, but thinking about it I presume this is not removing the nasties?

Is there a mechanical filter I can use to make the water safe without chemicals? Once I've got my solenoids sorted the plan is to have it 50% water change early hours Monday morning whilst I sleep.


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## JamieB (19 May 2015)

Wouldn't RO do this? Not really 100% certain but I think you could use that and re-mineralise it by the way of a dosing/peristaltic pump?


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## jagillham (19 May 2015)

The main issue I have really is that I would be dosing into the sump (otherwise I could peristaltic pump the prime), but the water is filling directly into the tank.


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## JamieB (19 May 2015)

I have very limited knowledge but I can't see that would be an issue, the water should be getting turned over enough with the filtration system that it'd re-mineralise it without issue (in my eyes) and if an RO unit can take out the chloramine/chlorine then the water would be safe anyway? I may be giving you the totally wrong info here so may be best that someone else chimes in


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## ian_m (19 May 2015)

To cover all bases you should really dose your RO water with prime as a RO unit does not guarantee complete removal of the water supplies dechlorinator. The big boy reefers sometimes dose their stored RO water with dechlorinator and sometimes Amquel (for ammonia) in case there is an issue with the water and/or RO system.

The RO issues are:

1. If incoming water is treated with chlorine and hopefully you are frequently replaced incoming RO carbon filter, it will successfully remove the chlorine before the membrane. If your carbon filter is exhausted (hope you are monitoring its usage ????) chlorine gets through and destroys the RO membrane and gets through into the RO output water. Some big boy reefers check RO with chlorine test kits (swimming pool test kits ) before putting RO into their tanks.They pre-store the RO water first and test (and remineralise & salt) before putting into their tanks. When marine fish cost £300 each, it pays to check the water and always add Prime and/or Amquel+.

2. If incoming water is treated with chloramine there are bigger issues. If you are using an incoming Dechlor+ carbon filter (and not exhausted) this slower flow carbon filter will break down the chloramine to chlorine and ammonia and absorb these in the carbon and all is OK.  However, if flow is too fast and/or prefilter exhausted the ammonia will not be absorbed and pass right through into the RO water. If you are using a normal carbon filter is may/will possibly let ammonia through anyway. Big boy reefers again check their stored RO water for ammonia before use or just bung in Prime and/or Amquel+.

It has been reported many times in the reef forums of people using RO water wiping all their fish out due to these issues.

Output DI resins can help alleviate the above problems, but again the resins have to be in tip top condition for them to work. Or just bung in Prime and/or Amquel+.

I found out this from local fish shop as the owner was showing me his equipment  and I noticed test kits near the RO storage containers. This was to test the stored RO water for presence of chlorine or ammonia. And yes he had found chlorine once in the RO water due to a faulty filter, he assumed water was getting past the filter somehow. Anyway never had any issues, just change the incoming Dechlor+ filters and DI resin regularly and no problem.


On a slightly different note, many people have tried automating their water changes but all end up with severe detritus issues. When you manually change 50% water you end up wafting the plants around, stirring up the gravel and generally lifting all the settled detritus up and removing it from the tank. How are you aiming to do this with your automatic water changer ? There was one guy, here I think, made a rig that wondered across the top of the tank (3000litre I think) squirting jets of water down stirring up the detritus during water changes.

Also if doing automatic water changes you must must must must have a weir overflow cut into your tank. This is in case it all goes wrong and incoming water does not turn off during a system failure and prevents you flooding your room.


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## Sacha (19 May 2015)

RO/DI


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## ian_m (19 May 2015)

Sacha said:


> RO/DI


With in date and not exhausted Chlor+ prefilter and fresh DI resin....job done. Nice.


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## jagillham (19 May 2015)

Thank you for the very detailed post Ian 

By the sounds of it then I'd need to keep on top of renewing the membranes. I am not too keen on the RO, as we on a water meter so the waste costs money! I am under the impression something like a HMA does not have waste output?

In regard to the automatic water changes, I should really be supplementing them with a syphon once in a while. Thankfully my flow is good and the substrate sand, so in general all the muck does not settle too much.

The water changes work _currently_ via a standpipe in the main tank outside of the weirbox which goes halfway up the tank. I open the valve that allows the water out of the tank into the sump. The sump has an overflow which prevents that flooding by diverting to the drain.


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## ian_m (19 May 2015)

jagillham said:


> HMA does not have waste output?


HMA certainly doesn't have any waste output, the "dirt" being retained by the filters. However can still suffer from chlorine and chloramine issues, use of Chlor+ pre-filter helps, in exactly the same way as RO water can. HMA does not soften the water however, or remove nitrates or remove phosphates, so not sure why, in UK, you would want to use an HMA filter. Again discus breeders who insist on using HMA filters they generally dechlorinate/Amque+ their stored water just in case there is an issue.


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## GlassWalker (19 May 2015)

jagillham said:


> So far I've been using an RO filter with both pipes going into the tank.



Both pipes? What does that mean?

I used to run HMA when I had an Oscar tank so I could fill it directly, although I still used dechlorinator "just in case". A HMA filter is in essence an RO unit without the RO. In both cases it relies on you changing them at an appropriate interval so they keep working and don't get exhausted. On that note I do badly, but I'm not seeing any change in my RO output TDS to suggest it is obviously malfunctioning. DI should get rid of most things that make it thought. I've gone a brute force method myself, with a 12L filter containing DI resin bought in 25L bags, much easier than the tiny pods. I still run a smaller 2nd pod with colour changing resin in it so I have visual indicator if the big one is exhausted. With my pumped RO system I get less than 2 parts waste for 1 part RO in warmer conditions, so it isn't too bad.


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## jagillham (20 May 2015)

As in both pipes out of the RO unit (waste and clean).

If I'm right, the peristaltic pump can go uphill (?). So what I'll do is dose the EI into the sump daily, and the Prime into the main tank above weekly.


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## Sacha (20 May 2015)

Why are you using both the waste and RO water together? You might as well just be using tap water...


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## ian_m (20 May 2015)

jagillham said:


> As in both pipes out of the RO unit (waste and clean).


The waste is well waste and should be sent to drain or water the garden. Mixing RO and waste achieves nothing except expensively removing chlorine/chloramine


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## GlassWalker (23 May 2015)

Well, running both pipes means you're using the RO unit as if it were a HMA filter after all. Just skip the membrane altogether, as the filtration will only be provided by the pre-filter stages.


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## jagillham (23 May 2015)

That was my intention, so I wasn't being that stupid after all?


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## ian_m (23 May 2015)

jagillham said:


> That was my intention, so I wasn't being that stupid after all?


A very expensive way to get equivalent filtered water. If you are putting both RO out and waste into same container I would save money and remove the RO membrane completely, you will get substantially faster flow. Remember to add Prime to your water as non of these filter mechanisms are guaranteed to remove 100% chlorine/chloramine.


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## xim (29 May 2015)

Without using chemicals, hmmm.

I would think about using ozone (in a reactor like ones for CO2) and a bio-filter in the reservoir.

Ozone can neutralise chloramine/chlorine. Then if it's chloramine, what is left is NH3/NH4...

Ozone is capable of oxidising NH3 to nitrite and nitrate. But the speed of the process depends on some factors.
And ozone won't oxidise NH4 (this is from what I read). So we can't count on ozone to oxidise them. And this is where the bio-filter comes in.

Sounds quite involving, but if it works. There you go. A chemical-free method (ozone doesn't stay) without waste water.


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