# Tonina fluviatilis



## Edvet

It's reported to grow as thick floating mats in nature,

http://www.tfhmagazine.com/details/plant-of-the-month/tonina-fluviatilis.htm

and i am trying to get them emersed for a future tank.




Toninas by Ed Prust, on Flickr
 In trade they seem to be from submerged culture alone, often in a suboptimal state. I managed to get some from in vitro cultures ( not commercialy available, don't ask) and i have been trying to get these going.

At first i put them on a shrimp soil i put EI ferts in( to get some NPMg in it) and covered them in RO water. I kept changing that to keep the TDS low ( 50 microsiemens).


20170901_123317 by Ed Prust, on Flickr



20170901_123328 by Ed Prust, on Flickr

After they started putting out roots i started to gradually lower the water, until they where emersed.



20170918_143244 by Ed Prust, on Flickr

I have them in a small tank with a heater in a container of water and kept it closed with cling film.
After 14 days i started to open it a bit to let the air dry out.



20170925_123604 by Ed Prust, on Flickr

They seem to be evolving well, so i keep my fingers crossed.


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## zozo

Interesting! Thanks for this one.... Walking around with the idea of building me a South American themed riparium in the future.  After seeing this:


 

http://www.aquatic-experts.com/Tonina_fluviatilis.html

Definitively a plant to keep in mind....


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## Edvet

Most seem to report it needs soft water and CO2


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## zozo

Depends when  it comes to co2.  As seen in the picture above, allegedly taken from it's natural habitat in the wild, not a shopped photo and it speaks for itself..  It's growing on the (river)bank from emersed to submersed. That's probably the ideal situation for this plant if not all bog plants, starting semi emersed in the shallows, rooting down and popping up at the substrate submersed.. As for the majority for the plants we use, if all foliage has to grow exclusively and entirely submersed we can't get around adding co2 to make 'm realy happy.


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## Edvet

zozo said:


> It's growing on the (river)bank from emersed to submersed


and that's what i want in my new tank


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## zozo

Edvet said:


> and that's what i want in my new tank



As do i.. And you seem to be a step ahead, already growing plants.. I'm only still brainsorming.. Can't wait to see what you come up with..  I can use some inspirations..


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## Mick.Dk

Congratulations on the success, getting these emerse .............


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## Edvet

Been brainstorming for almost 2 years already, and experimenting.


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## Edvet

Ah wait Mick DK,............... you know Dorte? 
Had a good holiday?


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## zozo

Edvet said:


> Been brainstorming for almost 2 years already, and experimenting.



Same here, but yet not with plant growing, but experimenting with tank building.. Combining wood and glass.. As you might have seen in mission bathtub . That little tank i made did an awsome job and it proofed structural very solid all summer long in wind and weather outdoor. Even more solid and safer then complete glass build. 

Now i want something indoors with a 1 metre high wooden back panel, wooden bottom panel, metre high glass side panels and a shallow glass front panel. Build a riparium and transition the back panel from bog plants to terrestrial climbers and epiphytes like mosses, ferns and orchids growing up. And some landmass sloping upwards submersed to emersed.. All still in the penn i'm dreaming about, but definitively S. American biotope. Terra/Riparium? Maybe with some climbing dwarf gekko's in it as well. Dimensions not yet fully desided on that. Maybe 60 x 40 x 100 or 90 x 40 x 100. Anyway, future music, the room it will be situated in needs a refurbish first.. So if, it wont be earlier than next year.. 

So time enough to suck up ideas.. Keep 'm comming..


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## Edvet

I see growth. Cover is partly open now all day, there is plenty evaporation, so i started spraying with some diluted EI ferts.


20171003_084204 by Ed Prust, on Flickr



20171003_084241 by Ed Prust, on Flickr


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Edvet said:


> I see growth.


How much light are they getting Ed?

cheers Darrel


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## Edvet

i have 2 T5's over them (and the next two tanks), both are on for 8 hours



20171003_120018 by Ed Prust, on Flickr


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## Edvet

Left tank has Apistogramma sp. Nanay (A 82 one male and 2 females), middle tank male and female A. trifasciata and Nannostomus trifasciata , and i am trying  to get a Nymphaea glandulifera going in there (just for the fourth time) as some Syngonanthus spp.


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## zozo

Pitty you have sub and emersed combined under the same light.. Growing emersed you can easily go far over 8 hours.. It only can benefit.. My experience also submersed you can go far over 8 hours if you keep intensity at a reasonable level. I think you would be beter of splitting the light sources up and give both grow forms optimal conditions they require.. 

Tonina also seems to be a flowering plant..


 

For some flowering herbal plants (if not most, i actualy don't realy know) light periode induces flowering.. It triggers a certain hormone in the plant inducing flower development and reducing vegetative growth. I'm a bit in the dark how this realy works in the tropical regions and do not realy know if it has all year round 12 hours precise. But for some tropicals in our climate or even grown artificialy lit, it wont flower as long as it receives a periode > than 12 hours and only grow vegitative. Is light periode = 12 or < 12 hours it induces flowering which reduces vegitative growth.

If this is the case for emersed growing Tonina, you actualy working counter productive with such a short light cycle forcing it into flowering stage.

Something worth to investigate with flowering herbal plant sp.. But i guess rather difficult to find this information if the plant has no real other ornamental or herbal cultivation purpose as only growing ornamental as aquarium plant. I've tried to find this info for several aquarium plant sp. to no avail, at least not on internet databases.


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## Edvet

Let's get it growing emersed first, then i will transfer it to soil, and then we see about flowering. Still doesn't feel established yet.
Not sure about the colour difference between old and new growth, maybe i should mist with some CSM- B solution


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## zozo

Edvet said:


> Let's get it growing emersed first, then i will transfer it to soil, and then we see about flowering.



Than my 50 cents on it, up the light periode at least double it.. Now it has a longer dark than light periode.. And it needs light to grow and become strong not darkness.


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## dw1305

Hi all,





Edvet said:


> Not sure about the colour difference between old and new growth,


I think they look OK, but that was what made me ask about the light, you can get lighter coloured new growth in strong light (bleached), or in low light (etiolated). 

They don't have any sign of light burn (Clive's "photon torpedo") and it looks like that is enough light intensity, so it may be a nutrient effect.

cheers Darrel


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## Edvet

Yeah thought so, i wil get some micro's on them.


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## dw1305

Hi all,





Edvet said:


> i wil get some micro's on them.


Because it is the new leaves it could be iron (Fe) deficiency, particularly if the pH has crept above pH7.

cheers Darrel


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## Edvet

Thx, Fe should react quickly i guess


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## dw1305

Hi all,





Edvet said:


> Fe should react quickly i guess


Most iron compounds are insoluble, this isn't as much of a problem in acidic conditions, but once you get above pH7 most of the iron will be insoluble. 

Because iron isn't mobile within the plant it will only be new leaves, which grew after the iron addition, that will be darker green.

cheers Darrel


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## Edvet

Okay time will tell


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## Edvet

Been adding some CSM-B too and upped the light with an LED
They seem to be struggling a bit, will see if i can add lighting hours


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## Edvet

Oh and probably they aren't Tonina but Syngonanthus, but i'll keep trying anyway.


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Edvet said:


> They seem to be struggling a bit, will see if i can add lighting hours


I think they probably look OK.

I'd go for a 12 hour day lighting period. 

cheers Darrel


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## Edvet

dw1305 said:


> 12 hour day lighting period.


Yeah need to jerry-rig something to keep the light out of the other tanks.


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## Edvet

Not sure if i keep them in this tank or transplant them to a small container in the windowsill? South or east? Just a closed plastic container


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## dw1305

Hi all,





Edvet said:


> Not sure if i keep them in this tank or transplant them to a small container in the windowsill? South or east? Just a closed plastic container


I might try the south facing windowsill. 

Tropical sun-light is incredibly bright and I think light intensity is one of the problems with over-wintering _<"Ludwigia sedioides"> _etc.

cheers Darrel


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## Bart Hazes

Very interesting thread. It's one of the plants I hope to grow successfully some day but so far have not been able to find any for sale. When that happens I now have some more ideas about what to do with them. Thanks.


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## Edvet

I'll transplant  a few next week.


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## MasterChief

Hi Edvet,
thank you for sharing your experiences,  but as far as i can see on your pics the plant is NOT Tonina fluviatilis.

I think your plant is Syngonanthus sp. manaus  (formerly also known as Tonina sp. manaus.
Usually you can float these plants very easily, if the stem becomes bad, just cut the head of the plants and use the head to plant it new. It gets some new lateral shoots then.

There is a similar plant called Syngonanthus sp. belem, which has leaves that are more bent downwards.

bye


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## parotet

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,I might try the south facing windowsill.
> 
> Tropical sun-light is incredibly bright and I think light intensity is one of the problems with over-wintering _<"Ludwigia sedioides"> _etc.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Completely agree. I’m growing micro orchids and bromeliads in a vivarium and I’ve been reading about their light requirements. Our very powerful lights for a planted tank just deliver what can be measured in the shade under a tropical tree. Being an emersed culture I would use the most powerful light you have for 12 hours

Jordi


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## Edvet

MasterChief said:


> NOT Tonina fluviatilis


Thx, i gathered that too. It may be this plants has a more exotic origin, and than it maybe a complete other one like Syngonanthus anomalus.
I tried floating a few of these and the didn't realy take of. I still have a few in other locations and the grow veeeeryyyyyy slooooow, but some have flowered


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## Edvet

Trans-"planted" a few to wet soil in a south facing windowsill. The have a decent root system, but dry air isn't what they like seemingly


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## zozo

But it's definitively a beautiful plant.. I hope you make it work..


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Edvet said:


> The have a decent root system, but dry air isn't what they like seemingly


I'd try keeping the lid on. Once the air cools down outside you get problems with the <"relative humidity dropping inside the house">. 

The cold air entering the house is often fully saturated with water, but that isn't very much water vapour due to the cold temperatures, as the temperature rises inside the relative humidity drops really rapidly.

cheers Darrel


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## Edvet

Got a new order in today, these are Tonina. They looked fresh as in just potted. So i divided them:
1) floating in an established tank which has about 90 Microsiemens hardness


 

2)lying in the wet with the other Syngonanthus under artificial light



3) potted up in wet gardening soil in the south facing windowsill


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## Edvet

The floating stems make roots very fast:


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## zozo

Floating like that it kinda resambles Elodea a little bit. What's the plan, keep it floating till it grows tall enough to reach surface from the substrate? What is the height of the tank you want to put them in? I guess not that tall since i think to remember you would like them to grow on emersed in a riparium/paludarium setup?


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## Edvet

Right now it's just experimenting to see if i can get it emersed, it realy doesn't seem to like dry air.


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## zozo

Patience, time heals al the wounds..  

This took me 2 years and it's still not realy happy.. But it's 2 leaves happier than it was 2 years ago.. It's an Anubias above an open top tank.
At first a leaf didn't last longer than a few days, it's a few weeks by now.. But this is a totaly different type of plant. herbaceous might be even more difficult.


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## Edvet

Wel it's official, the Syngonanthus really doesn't like dry air, and the Tonina either. Having kept them with wet feet and dry air they wither. I've tried one of the floaters, which had a lot of roots,  in the open tank and it dried out promptly.
The syngonanthus and the Tonina in the closed container and the Tonina in the jar  are doing better. I will very gradually get them used to drier air. I added some i bought last weekend, the had the typical Syngonanthus style flowerstalks from the leafaxels, one flower on a longish stalk.


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## Edvet

Followup:
The syngonanthus have all perished except one i kept in the original cup.


 

The tonina are suffering too, lack of humidity i guess.
Interestingly something new sprouted in that tank, not sure where it came from:


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## Edvet

looks like a plant. it's about 1x1x1 cm. Inflorescence looks like syngonanthus ??????


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## Edvet

In the windowsill syngonanthus is gone too, tonina is struggling:



Except the last ones i bought:


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## zozo

Edvet said:


> looks like a plant.


Or a moss, maybe a Syntrichia spp. some are pretty common..


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## Edvet

Agreed size is more like moss, but when i saw the picture (crappy celphone quality) it looked more like a plant to my eyes. Will see if i can get SRL here.


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## zozo

Syntrichia papillosa (Knikkersterretje) you find it all over the country it also likes wet places.. 



 

MarbleStar moss, if it is, you should see the marbles if you go realy close..  


 

Or another star moss..


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## Edvet

Looks like that top one indeed. Good call.
So probably just blew in?


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## zozo

Marblelous isn't it..   I never had it blown in.


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## Edvet

In my ongoing struggle to get it emersed and used to lower humidity i got a small succes.
It's only getting sprayed now once every three days. Seeing the color i need to add more ferts to the spray ( or micro's i guess)


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## dw1305

Hi all,





Edvet said:


> used to lower humidity i got a small succes.


That is looking much more promising. 





Edvet said:


> or micro's i guess


Looks like an iron (Fe) issue. 

cheers Darrel


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## Edvet

dw1305 said:


> Looks like an iron (Fe) issue.


Yup, i realised i only gave macro's in the spray


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## Edvet

Micro's worked, they greened up:


 

They are getting some arial like roots above the water:


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## Edvet

Decided to go a slightly different direction, plants love it


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