# Double checking full EI dosing as per calc



## kschyff (22 Jun 2022)

Hi
I would like to start with full EI and have plugged in my tank parameters which generated the attached output (let me know if the image is too small). I use 100% RO water.
1.) Are these looking good in terms of the choices I made for the various elements? I have heard that the chloride versions dissolve better than the sulphates, but I would like to double check this.
2.) Given that Ca and Mg are integral in this EI method, do I have to remineralize when I do the WC? I would think so as the levels of Ca and Mg are not yet at their intended threshold.
3.) In South Africa I am buying the Plantex CSM+B compound without knowing exactly which one it is. Which CSM+B compounds is preferable?
Any advice welcome before I buy all of these chemicals.
Karl


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## Hufsa (22 Jun 2022)

Why target 5 degrees KH? You have RO so you can set your own parameters freely, 1 degree should be more than enough if you are just wanting some stability to your PH?
Unless you have some livestock requiring higher?
Around 6-7 GH will be nice for neocaridina shrimp if youre wanting to keep those.

The chemical choices themselves look good, the choice is yours to use chlorides or sulphates, chlorides do indeed dissolve more easily, while higher levels of sulphates is better tolerated by plants than higher levels of chloride.

I believe for your trace mix it will probably be fine, do you have the values for your specific mix? For EI dosing the thought is generally that most mixes will do, unless its got unusually high levels of copper or something like that.


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## kschyff (22 Jun 2022)

@Hufsa thank you for the advice. I only target 5 dKH as that is what the Fert calculator recommends when I select full EI dosing. The screenshot is for the micro and macro dosages as I understand it. I ordered the Plantex minerals - will go ahead and get the others now as well.

Do I add potassium carbonate to the macro container with all the other minerals?

I see the one online store lists potassium carbonate as "potassium carbonate anhydrous". Is this anhydrous version correct?


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## Hufsa (22 Jun 2022)

Theres been an oversight on my part, I believe the one you want is Potassium *bi*carbonate, not potassium carbonate. Im sorry I didnt catch that earlier in the image you shared.
@dw1305 can you confirm this for me? I think my notes on this is based on one of your posts



kschyff said:


> I only target 5 dKH as that is what the Fert calculator recommends when I select full EI dosing.


Huh thats strange. Maybe @Zeus. can clarify this?
I wasnt aware there was a precise KH target for EI.



kschyff said:


> Do I add potassium carbonate to the macro container with all the other minerals?


No you should only add it when you remineralize your RO water, its not a part of the macro or micro fertilizers.

Calcium and magnesium is also added (usually dry) to the RO water, although I believe some people include a small amount of magnesium in their macro mix.
Calcium cannot be added to macro as it does not play nice with the others when in a concentrated solution like a macro fertilizer. 
The calcium will find any available sulphates from the other salts, and then form calcium sulphate and precipitate out of solution because calcium sulphate is poorly soluble. 
So even if you use calcium chloride like you have planned, it wont be able to go into the macro. 
Only into water change water, where the volumes will be large enough for it to stay in solution.


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## kschyff (22 Jun 2022)

@Hufsa thank you. I think as someone who is still learning i misunderstand which of those minerals should feature in the macro solution and which should form part of the remineralization solution. I know the csm+b is what is placed in the micro solution.

Sent from my SM-A715F using Tapatalk


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## Zeus. (23 Jun 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Huh thats strange. Maybe @Zeus. can clarify this?
> I wasnt aware there was a precise KH target for EI.


Yes 5kH is what full EI recommends, which for most folk using tap water can be ignored as the tap water will have plenty already. Same for Ca. Which is why IMO Clive's EI dose doesn't contain any kH or Ca as they are already in abundance with tap water. They are there for folk who use RO/DI water


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## kschyff (23 Jun 2022)

Thank you @Zeus.  Am I right when I say that the following should feature in my macro mix:
*potassium nitrate, monopotassium phosphate, potassium sulphate*

Then, when I do a water change I dry dose the _*calcium chloride, potassium carbonate*_ and *magnesium sulphate in* my 30 litres of RO water.

OR

Should I include the magnesium sulphate as part of the macro mix? 

I think its this question which has caused problems for me in the past, especially with the remineralizing.


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## Wookii (23 Jun 2022)

Zeus. said:


> Yes 5kH is what full EI recommends,



That a new one on me, where did that come from - as I understand it, a KH below one is generally the optimum for plants (though most will grow happily in any KH) - I can't think of a reason to willingly raise it higher unless its for specific livestock?


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## Wookii (23 Jun 2022)

kschyff said:


> Thank you @Zeus.  Am I right when I say that the following should feature in my macro mix:
> *potassium nitrate, monopotassium phosphate, potassium sulphate*
> 
> Then, when I do a water change I dry dose the _*calcium chloride, potassium carbonate*_ and *magnesium sulphate in* my 30 litres of RO water.
> ...



You can do either with the magnesium sulphate - either dissolve it along with your macro mix, or add it to you RO water change. The latter is easier, and allows you to more accurately maintain a consistent GH and a good relative ratio between the Calcium and Magnesium (usually around 3:1).

As @Hufsa says, you can only add the Calcium Chloride and Potassium Carbonate to the water change water (or directly to the tank after a water change) - both dissolve very easily. For Potassium carbonate, you'll be needing to add around 0.72g to your 30 litre water change for 1dKH. Personally I'd just go for half a gram per water change to make it easy. 

Measuring the powders out in such small quantities can be time consuming though, so you can make up a solution  instead. For example you could make up a bottle with 500ml of RO water, and dissolve 25 grams of Potassium Carbonate in it, then dose 10ml per water change - effectively dosing 0.5g of K2CO3 to your 30 litre water change for 0.7dKH.


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## dw1305 (23 Jun 2022)

Hi all,


Hufsa said:


> I believe the one you want is Potassium *bi*carbonate, not potassium carbonate. Im sorry I didnt catch that earlier in the image you shared.
> @dw1305 can you confirm this for me?


You can use either. The carbonate (CO3-- ion) will convert to bicarbonate ((2)HCO3-) in <"most circumstances">. You've added a bit more dKH with the same weight of potassium carbonate (K2CO3), from <"James' Planted Tank">


> 1.8g KHCO3 in 25 litres of water = 2 dKH
> 1.2g K2CO3 in 25 litres of water = 2 dKH


cheers Darrel


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## dw1305 (23 Jun 2022)

Hi all,


Wookii said:


> as I understand it, a KH below one is generally the optimum for plants (though most will grow happily in any KH) - I can't think of a reason to willingly raise it higher unless its for specific livestock?





Hufsa said:


> Why target 5 degrees KH? You have RO so you can set your own parameters freely, 1 degree should be more than enough if you are just wanting some stability to your PH?


Same for me, if I had water with very low carbonate hardness I wouldn't add any more dKH, unless I was specifically keeping livestock from harder water.


Zeus. said:


> Which is why IMO Clive's EI dose doesn't contain any kH or Ca as they are already in abundance with tap water.For any-one who has hard tap water a small dash of tap is going to supply all the calcium and (bi)carbonate you need.


Any-one who has hard water can just add a dash of tap water to supply <"calcium (Ca) and bicarbonate (dKH)">.




cheers Darrel


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## kschyff (23 Jun 2022)

Thank you all. @Wookii I like your suggestion to make 500 ml remineralizing solution. _*Would it be ok if I simply add the required magnesium sulphate and calcium chloride to the potassium carbonate and make an all-in-one remineralizing solution? *_This way I get the Ca:Mg ratio right from the word go after the WC and also slightly up my KH. @dw1305  Thank you for the graphic of the UK - very interesting.


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## dw1305 (23 Jun 2022)

Hi all, 


kschyff said:


> Thank you for the graphic of the UK - very interesting


I'd guess there probably isn't one for S. Africa, but <"geology would give you some idea">, unless the supply is entirely rain water based.  

cheers Darrel


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## Wookii (23 Jun 2022)

kschyff said:


> Thank you all. @Wookii I like your suggestion to make 500 ml remineralizing solution. _*Would it be ok if I simply add the required magnesium sulphate and calcium chloride to the potassium carbonate and make an all-in-one remineralizing solution? *_This way I get the Ca:Mg ratio right from the word go after the WC and also slightly up my KH. @dw1305  Thank you for the graphic of the UK - very interesting.



No, you can't mix them unfortunately, they'll react and you'll get newly formed calcium and magnesium carbonate precipitating out of solution. You can however produce a separate bottle for each if you prefer dosing liquids rather than dry powders.

My tanks run on automated water changes with RO water, so I use an auto-doser to dose solutions of MgSO4, CaCl2 and K2CO3 immediately after the water change.


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## GreggZ (23 Jun 2022)

Don't get too caught up in dosing "full" EI. I know many successful people in the hobby and very few if any dose full EI amounts. 

If you were to dose 30 ppm NO3 as indicated with 50% water changes your potential accumulation is 60 ppm NO3. There isn't a tank in the world that needs 60 ppm NO3 in the water column.

As to dKH I know Tom Barr and he runs his tanks with very little to no carbonate hardness. My guess is that the suggested dosing of dKH is a relic from some very old EI thoughts from many years ago. Most of the best tanks I know of keep dKH at somewhere between one and zero. Personally I've run my tank with pure RO with no carbonates added for many years. And keep in mind that if you are adding K2CO3 or KHCO3 you are also adding a huge amount of K which you don't really need or want.

For dGH it's simple you just need sources of Ca and Mg. Most use CaSO4 and MgSO4. Dose these right after a water change to bring the levels to where you prefer them. Most that I know raise dGH to somewhere between 4 and 6. Either is plenty for plants.

Be sure to create a solution for the CSM+B. The larger the container the better. It will increase your odds of having a more uniform amount of micro nutrients. 

Good luck and keep in mind that fert dosing is only one small part of keeping a successful planted tank. IMO light levels, CO2 levels, and maintenance/horticulture have more impact than fert dosing.


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## Zeus. (23 Jun 2022)

Wookii said:


> That a new one on me, where did that come from - as I understand it, a KH below one is generally the optimum for plants (though most will grow happily in any KH) - I can't think of a reason to willingly raise it higher unless its for specific livestock?



Good question. TBH I cant remember ATM 😬, I've even ask @Hanuman if he can remember


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## John q (23 Jun 2022)

I think? Clive's suggestion of 3 ~ 4kh was once mentioned by him in regards to stability when injecting and monitoring Co2 (ph readings) I could of course be completely wrong on this. 

Truth is and Clive would definitely say take no notice of kh, work with what you have, do whatever is the easiest, the plants won't care. 

Also as Greggz points out, there are lots of beautiful tanks out there that run 0 ~ 1 KH.


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## kschyff (23 Jun 2022)

Wow. Thank you for all the great advice. I have read these messages carefully and think I will go with Clive's EI regime (less NO3) as per the calculator and then simply add enough Mg and Ca to reach between 4 and 6 dGH. Will use a 1 litre container for the CSM mix and add the acsorbic acid and the potassium sorbate to the containers when I mix it all up. At least now I can eliminate nutrients when I do run into issues.


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## John q (23 Jun 2022)

John q said:


> I think? Clive's suggestion of 3 ~ 4kh was once mentioned by him in regards to stability when injecting and monitoring Co2 (ph readings) I could of course be completely wrong on this.


I knew I'd read it  somewhere. 
Post in thread 'New tank with low GH, KH' New tank with low GH, KH


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## Wookii (23 Jun 2022)

John q said:


> I knew I'd read it  somewhere.
> Post in thread 'New tank with low GH, KH' New tank with low GH, KH



I suspect that it’s a hang over from the now debunked belief that low KH could lead to pH crashes.


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## GreggZ (24 Jun 2022)

Wookii said:


> I suspect that it’s a hang over from the now debunked belief that low KH could lead to pH crashes.


Yep and old myths die hard. 

The thing is there is a subset of plants that simply won't do well without very low dKH. And to fair there is a VERY small subset that likes a bit more dKH. If you have very high dKH levels there's a pretty big subset that won't do well and your choices are more limited. But as a general rule the lower the dKH the easier it is to keep most plants.


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## Yugang (24 Jun 2022)

Zeus. said:


> Yes 5kH is what full EI recommends,





GreggZ said:


> As to dKH I know Tom Barr and he runs his tanks with very little to no carbonate hardnes



Here speaks a diligent Tom Barr student ....

In older postings (e.g. 18/3/2006 Barreport) Tom recommends kH 3 and gH 5, with gH always a couple of points above kH. Later, for example his posting 23/12/2010 any kH between 1-4 is good.

So here is the likely source, and also Tom Barr continues to learn and adapts his views.

EDIT SOURCES
 #2 
#17


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## Hanuman (24 Jun 2022)

Yugang said:


> Here speaks a diligent Tom Barr student ....
> 
> In older postings (e.g. 18/3/2006 Barreport) Tom recommends kH 3 and gH 5, with gH always a couple of points above kH. Later, for example his posting 23/12/2010 any kH between 1-4 is good.
> 
> So here is the likely source, and also Tom Barr continues to learn and adapts his views.


Please add the links so we have the source we can link to in 5 years when someone else asks or that we forget again 😂


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## GreggZ (24 Jun 2022)

Yugang said:


> So here is the likely source, and also Tom Barr continues to learn and adapts his views.


Herein  lies the problem. What we say on the web lives forever. 

I have said this many times over the years. 

Whatever I said I believed to be true at the time I said it. 

And I know Tom Barr would say the same thing.


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## Yugang (24 Jun 2022)

GreggZ said:


> Herein lies the problem.


Well, if following Barr's 2006 insights I could match his 2006 tank? I'll settle for that 
 Tom Barr 2006 tank


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## dw1305 (24 Jun 2022)

Hi all,


Wookii said:


> I suspect that it’s a hang over from the now debunked belief that low KH could lead to pH crashes.





GreggZ said:


> Yep and old myths die hard.


I wish it was debunked. I've spent years trying to <"explain acidosis, buffering and pH to people"> on <"various forums">, apparently with relatively little success.  This was the conclusion of the <"top google search result"> for the search "buffering pH drop aquarium stability" and looking through the subsequent links just repeated the same depressing read.


> Conclusion
> 
> _Though your aquarium fish may prefer a particularly pH in their native environment, it is much more important to have a stable pH than to have a specific value for your pH. Adjusting the pH in your aquarium can be dangerous to the fish as swings of just 0.3 in a day can be deadly. Therefore, unless you have a specific reason for doing so, it is better to acclimate the fish to your tap water’s pH than to adjust your pH to fit the preference of your fish._


I've recently read that a "_pH drop of one unit is always fatal to your fish_", and when I (politely) told the author about <"aquascapers and CO2"> their response was that both I, and the aquascapers, are "_obviously liars"._

I'm now thinking of giving up on both my day job and UKAPS and becoming a salesman of "aquarium grade bicarbonate of soda" and "aquarium salt" because apparently that is where people's tanks start to go wrong, they haven't added enough of either (or both) of these products.

cheers Darrel


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## dw1305 (24 Jun 2022)

Hi all, 


dw1305 said:


> I've recently read that a "_pH drop of one unit is always fatal to your fish_", and when I (politely) told the author about <"aquascapers and CO2"> their response was that both I, and the aquascapers, are "_obviously liars"._


At some point I'm going to compile a <"list of these">. In fact scrub list, I'm going to <"write a whole book"> I'm pretty sure <"I have enough"> to rival "War and Peace" in book length, the only problem is that it will be a bit repetitive (although that hasn't hurt Dan Brown).

cheers Darrel


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## Zeus. (24 Jun 2022)

dw1305 said:


> the only problem is that it will be a bit repetitive (although that hasn't hurt Dan Brown).


you do get the 'déjà vu' feeling with each book


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## GreggZ (24 Jun 2022)

Hanuman said:


> More seriously though these are pre-set regimes which are basically "standard" all rounded regimes. More like a reference point. It could be 7 dKH or 1dKH that it wouldn't matter. But nowdays we are in the era of "sensitive" plants (or sensitive people) and low dKH *tunnel vision* (to employ a term that has been trending for some time) where if you are above a certain dKH all hell brakes lose. In all reality unless one is growing some specific sensitive plants, even 5dKH will be no issues. Here is a quote from Dennis at 2hrAquarist:


Yep I agree. Even though I run a very low/no dKH tank, I do believe in general it has been overblown. You can have a fantastic tank at 5 dKH, or even 10 dKH. It just makes things a bit easier at the lower levels, and also opens the door to a wider variety of plants. 

I will say that at very high dKH levels, say 15 plus, there is a noticeable difference. I once had source water from a well that we very high in dKH, and things were a bit of a struggle and the number of plants that would thrive at that level was limited.

As to "EI" levels there has never been any "official" EI levels. It is more of a concept than a strict regiment. It also morphs a bit over time. You may remember years ago that EI recommended 5 ppm Fe from micros weekly. A group of us discussed this with Barr years ago and agreed to lower it to 2 ppm Fe on the on line calculators. Then later that was reduced to under 1 ppm. So these things evolve over time.


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## Zeus. (24 Jun 2022)

Not 100% sure what source I used and a little busy renovating house ATM. But will keep thinking and doing the occasional search. Probably on an old thread .



GreggZ said:


> As to "EI" levels there has never been any "official" EI levels. It is more of a concept than a strict regiment.



Agree 100%. 

On reflection a 5.0kH does seem a little high IMO also. Nobody has ever call us on it, so its @Wookii to blame/thank 👊/😚.

We could also revise the kH figure on the next release if we can have a general consensus what would be suitable
maybe


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## Zeus. (24 Jun 2022)

Was just thinking about kH and EI dosing and any modification to kH levels should really be done at WC only ie as a Remineralising Agent.
As if it is dosed three times a week the kH will change over the week and so will the tanks pH which if using a pH controller for CO2 levels will results in an unstable [CO2] over the week !!!
So



would be better IMO


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## GreggZ (24 Jun 2022)

Zeus. said:


> Agree 100%.
> 
> On reflection a 5.0kH does seem a little high IMO also. Nobody has ever call us on it, so its @Wookii to blame/thank 👊/😚.
> 
> We could also revise the kH figure on the next release if we can have a general consensus what would be suitable


I can only speak for myself but I don't think dKH needs to be addressed in the EI calculator. Most people will do fine with whatever their source water is unless it's extremely high.  And then it's not a matter of dosing but perhaps going to RO. 

For those blessed with nice soft low dKH soft water there is really no need to bump it up. They should enjoy their good fortune. 

Funny thing is that is was a discussion exactly like this that resulted in my leaving (kicked out!) of Plantedtank.net. The mod there is of the old mindset that low dKH tanks will all suffer from a pH crash and speaking of low/no dKH tanks is strictly verboten! 

Things do change over time. The Dupla method was once state of the art. I don't know of too many people with heating cables in their substrate these days.


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## GreggZ (24 Jun 2022)

Zeus. said:


> Was just thinking about kH and EI dosing and any modification to kH levels should really be done at WC only ie as a Remineralising Agent.
> As if it is dosed three times a week the kH will change over the week and so will the tanks pH which if using a pH controller for CO2 levels will results in an unstable [CO2] over the week !!!
> So
> View attachment 190301
> would be better IMO


This is a very good point. Whatever your dKH level is it's better to have it stable. As you said particularly with the use of a pH controller.

Another point is that if you are adding K2CO3 or KHCO3 it's best to dose that into a holding tank if possible. When you dose those compounds into a tank there is a temporary large pH spike. I've seen pH rise to 11 or 12 immediately after a dose. It takes 12 to 24 hours for that to stabilize. Some sensitive livestock could be adversely affected with such a sudden rise.


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## Hanuman (25 Jun 2022)

Zeus. said:


> On reflection a 5.0kH does seem a little high IMO also. Nobody has ever call us on it, so its @Wookii to blame/thank 👊/😚.





Zeus. said:


> Was just thinking about kH and EI dosing and any modification to kH levels should really be done at WC only ie as a Remineralising Agent.
> As if it is dosed three times a week the kH will change over the week and so will the tanks pH which if using a pH controller for CO2 levels will results in an unstable [CO2] over the week !!!





GreggZ said:


> can only speak for myself but I don't think dKH needs to be addressed in the EI calculator.


We could also argue that Ca and Mg have no business being part of EI. They are remineralizers, perhaps more Ca than Mg. But I think that removing dKH wouldn't be a bad idea though.


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## Yugang (25 Jun 2022)

Hanuman said:


> We could also argue that Ca and Mg have no business being part of EI. They are remineralizers, perhaps more Ca than Mg. But I think that removing dKH wouldn't be a bad idea though.


My two cents...

I believe kH is less relevant because it is thought that the exact value is less important, as long as it is stable and not too high.

I don't see really the difference between a remineraliser and a nutrient. I have lost a lot of time as I had a blind spot for Mg in the past, and did not realise my tank was deficient. Ca seems less important than Mg according to current insights.

So I do see the value of at least Mg in the calculator, and it does not hurt.


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## Hanuman (25 Jun 2022)

Yugang said:


> My two cents...
> 
> I believe kH is less relevant because it is thought that the exact value is less important, as long as it is stable and not too high.
> 
> ...


That Mg and Ca are nutrients is not the question. That they are part of EI is. But obviously you need them, my point being that Mg and Ca values are not intrinsically linked to the EI principal as far as I am aware but they obviously need to be there, more so Mg than Ca simply because most, if not all aquarium centric ferts do not incorporate Ca in their mixture for obvious reasons. You will also notice that most ferts have very little Mg and it's up to the user to properly remineralize the water with the desired dGH (Ca:Mg). This said these are preset regime and it's preferable to have both Ca and Mg shown.


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## _Maq_ (25 Jun 2022)

Wookii said:


> ...the now debunked belief that low KH could lead to pH crashes.


A debunked belief? I still believe water with low KH is prone to pH volatility. Well, "believe" is not the correct word. I just experience it routinely. Is there anything I'm missing here?


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## dw1305 (25 Jun 2022)

Hi all,


_Maq_ said:


> I still believe water with low KH is prone to pH volatility


It is, as you approach pure H2O pH becomes <"more and more unstable">, due to the ratio (and log10) nature of the pH scale. This happens <"in nature">, as well as in the aquarium.

I think more the point would be that <"_changes in pH_"> aren't <"necessarily damaging to fish">.

cheers Darrel


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## _Maq_ (25 Jun 2022)

Zeus. said:


> View attachment 190299


Guys, I don't want to disturb your - obviously dedicated - EI party, however there are also different worlds around.
Firstly, dosing 30 ppm NO3 is insane in itself. But IF I ever had that much nitrate in my tank (and no ammonia), I would dose 4.7 ppm K, 14.7 ppm Mg, and 48.5 ppm Ca. There's way too much potassium there. I don't know what CO2 injection can do, but I'd expect a serious case of Mg and Ca deficiency. Plants prefer potassium to magnesium and calcium because in natural waters, potassium is usually in short supply.


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## _Maq_ (25 Jun 2022)

dw1305 said:


> I think more the point would be that <"_changes in pH_"> aren't <"necessarily damaging to fish">.


... neither to plants. At first, I sometimes panicked when my pH dropped half a point, but practice taught me that it does little harm.


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## plantnoobdude (25 Jun 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> Guys, I don't want to disturb your - obviously dedicated - EI party, however there are also different worlds around.
> Firstly, dosing 30 ppm NO3 is insane in itself. But IF I ever had that much nitrate in my tank (and no ammonia), I would dose 4.7 ppm K, 14.7 ppm Mg, and 48.5 ppm Ca. There's way too much potassium there. I don't know what CO2 injection can do, but I'd expect a serious case of Mg and Ca deficiency. Plants prefer potassium to magnesium and calcium because in natural waters, potassium is usually in short supply.


Your theoretical K level is aligned with marschner in Terms of N:K, coincidence?


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## _Maq_ (25 Jun 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Your theoretical K level is aligned with marschner in Terms of N:K, coincidence?


It's Marschner, indeed. But not for Mg and Ca, they must be in much higher supply than what would apply if only consumption were taken into account.


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## Wookii (25 Jun 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> A debunked belief? I still believe water with low KH is prone to pH volatility. Well, "believe" is not the correct word. I just experience it routinely. Is there anything I'm missing here?



Yes Marcel, you’re missing the point that that pH fluctuations don’t matter.


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## Yugang (25 Jun 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> I'd expect a serious case of Mg and Ca deficiency





_Maq_ said:


> It's Marschner, indeed. But not for Mg and Ca, they must be in much higher supply than what would apply if only consumption were taken into account.





_Maq_ said:


> I would dose 4.7 ppm K, 14.7 ppm Mg, and 48.5 ppm Ca.



I have been chasing these ratios for years in my own tank, but was unable to find evidence that Ca really matters, and certainly not as a 3-4 multiple of the Mg as is often recommended in the hobby.  We also had a thread on this subject Latest insights on Calcium and the conclusion on this forum was that just a tiny amount of Ca is sufficient for plants. Ca is mostly needed for the lifestock, that's why we add it in sufficient amounts

Do you have any references (experiments, science literature) to understand why we would need these high Ca ppm's?

With the forums that we have, 2 decades of postings by real experts and self proclaimed experts, we have many theories how to run tanks. I read a lot, but find it very challenging to know what is real and what are merely myths in our hobby's echo chamber. This is why I copy practices from successful tank keepers, and have learned that there are many competing truths in the hobby.


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## _Maq_ (25 Jun 2022)

Wookii said:


> Yes Marcel


I'm not Marcel. I think I know who you mean, I know him personally, but it's not me.


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## GreggZ (26 Jun 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> A debunked belief? I still believe water with low KH is prone to pH volatility. Well, "believe" is not the correct word. I just experience it routinely. Is there anything I'm missing here?


Many if not most of the best planted tanks in the hobby run very, very little to no dKH. I've been running my tank for years at zero dKH for years now.

The pH is very stable other than when I drop it via CO2 injection. If tanks experience a pH crash it's almost always related to poor maintenance.

Here's a good article about low pH tanks. My tank is pictured there when I was running 1 dKH.

2hr Aquarist Low pH Tanks

But if you are a disciple of Marcel's then I am guessing there is little we will agree on and I am pretty sure I know where this is going. It almost always ends the same way.


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## Yugang (26 Jun 2022)

dw1305 said:


> I'd like to think we are a "broad church",





GreggZ said:


> But if you are a disciple



Not sure where this is heading


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## Hanuman (26 Jun 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> Guys, I don't want to disturb your - obviously dedicated - EI party, however there are also different worlds around.


Fist of all that sounds ironic. Second of all there is no party here nor are we promoting any EI regime. We are merely commenting on some technical feature on the calculator that should either stay or go. Granted it's starting to go off topic.


_Maq_ said:


> Firstly, dosing 30 ppm NO3 is insane in itself. But IF I ever had that much nitrate in my tank (and no ammonia), I would dose 4.7 ppm K, 14.7 ppm Mg, and 48.5 ppm Ca. There's way too much potassium there. I don't know what CO2 injection can do, but I'd expect a serious case of Mg and Ca deficiency. Plants prefer potassium to magnesium and calcium because in natural waters, potassium is usually in short supply.


It's not, even if that sounds monstrous to you. Here , this is what I am dosing and my tank is running smoothly with no hiccups. No Algea, co PH crush no shenanigans of any sort even with dKH close to 0 or at 0.






_Maq_ said:


> A debunked belief? I still believe water with low KH is prone to pH volatility. Well, "believe" is not the correct word. I just experience it routinely. Is there anything I'm missing here?


Not sure what you are doing, but I have been using RO water for the past 2 years and never have I experienced a crash and so has anyone I know using RO water and not adding any carbonates to the tank. Maybe if you are running a bare tank with no substrate and basically no hardscape, perhaps that would happen. If you are experiencing those crashes then you should be experiencing them daily pretty violently and your fish would probably be dead by now.


plantnoobdude said:


> Your theoretical K level is aligned with marschner in Terms of N:K, coincidence?





_Maq_ said:


> It's Marschner, indeed. But not for Mg and Ca, they must be in much higher supply than what would apply if only consumption were taken into account.


This seems to be taking yet another unnecessary road turn. Perhaps we should keep in line with the OP?


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## Wookii (26 Jun 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> I'm not Marcel. I think I know who you mean, I know him personally, but it's not me.


😂


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## GhostVoice (26 Jun 2022)

It would be easy for admin to check the exact location of Marcel vs Maq based on IP. Marcel lives in Lysa nad Labem, Maq does not. Marcel and Maq were working together on some experiments. They were collegues. Marcel then quit the aquarium hobby, Maq does not and continued to do other experiments by himself. I think Maq is much smarter than Marcel, and he definitely is not his disciple. Marcel was the one who learned from Maq. That's just for clarification.


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## _Maq_ (26 Jun 2022)

I'd like to clarify that I run most of my tanks with near zero alkalinity.
The original statement was this:


Wookii said:


> I suspect that it’s a hang over from the now debunked belief that low KH could lead to pH crashes.


It says nothing on whether pH moves are dangerous or not, it simply states that low KH does not lead to pH crashes. To that, I said that pH is indeed volatile. Nothing more.


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## _Maq_ (26 Jun 2022)

Yugang said:


> I have been chasing these ratios for years in my own tank, but was unable to find evidence that Ca really matters, and certainly not as a 3-4 multiple of the Mg as is often recommended in the hobby.  We also had a thread on this subject Latest insights on Calcium and the conclusion on this forum was that just a tiny amount of Ca is sufficient for plants. Ca is mostly needed for the lifestock, that's why we add it in sufficient amounts
> Do you have any references (experiments, science literature) to understand why we would need these high Ca ppm's?


I'm not very concerned about Mg : Ca ratio. It seems that plants tolerate quite wide fluctuations without much harm. What I care for is the ratio between *potassium* (and ammonia) and Ca, Mg. Below are some quotations from _Fageria - The Use of Nutrients in Crop Plants [2009]_:


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## Yugang (26 Jun 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> I'm not very concerned about Mg : Ca ratio. It seems that plants tolerate quite wide fluctuations without much harm. What I care for is the ratio between *potassium* (and ammonia) and Ca, Mg. Below are some quotations from _Fageria - The Use of Nutrients in Crop Plants [2009]_:





_Maq_ said:


> I would dose .... 48.5 ppm Ca


For aquatic plants, could you refer to any experiment or science that indicate that we need more than a few ppm Ca?  Otherwise, is it fair to say that this recommendation is  a personal opinion (which is fine, as I also have opinions)?



_Maq_ said:


> I'd expect a serious case of Mg and Ca deficiency.


Have you experienced Ca deficiency in any of your tanks? In our thread Latest insights on Calcium no one on this forum raised warning here. We should care about shrimp, but that's another discussion.

My suspicion, after worrying about Ca for several years, scanning forums for wisdom, is that the far majority of statements on Ca deficiencies and Ca target ppm's are most likely not more than personal opinions and not based on relevant observations in aquatic plants. 

As I do not want to derail this thread, may I suggest that you add further insights to the thread Latest insights on Calcium ?


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## Yugang (26 Jun 2022)

dw1305 said:


> It is, as you approach pure H2O pH becomes <"more and more unstable">, due to the ratio (and log10) nature of the pH scale.


@dw1305 you know 1000 times more about chemistry than I, and I do not want to be the wisenose ...

What you write about the logarithmic relationship is true, this holds when the water has sufficiently high buffering capacity, for example KH>1. 
What I am reading is that with KH approaching 0 the HCO3/CO2 buffering capacity is insufficient and the log relationship between pH and CO2 concentration breaks down leading to potentially a crash.


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## JoshP12 (26 Jun 2022)

The Saga continues …. What about substrate?!


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## JoshP12 (26 Jun 2022)

GreggZ said:


> Herein  lies the problem. What we say on the web lives forever.
> 
> I have said this many times over the years.
> 
> ...


I’ve changed my view in the middle of a post 😂 … as I think through a problem.


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## dw1305 (26 Jun 2022)

Hi all,


Yugang said:


> @dw1305 you know 1000 times more about chemistry than


I wish, I'm not a chemist and I had to get people to explain pH and buffering <"in terms I could understand"> before I could apply them to the real world situations.

The easiest way to think about it is the Brønsted-Lowry definition of acids <"that *acids are proton (H+) donors *and *bases are *_*proton acceptors*">_ and what matter is the *amount of them * in solution, not their ratio. It is the ratio, which *when, expressed on the log10 scale, * that we measure as* pH* ("_the negative log of the H+ activity_")


Yugang said:


> What you write about the logarithmic relationship is true, this holds when the water has sufficiently high buffering capacity, for example KH>1.


The relationship remains logarithmic, but when we are at pH7  we have equal numbers (equal activity really) of H+ and OH- ions from the deprotonation (<"self ionization of water">). We actually have an OH- and a hydronium ion (H3O+), but that doesn't make any practical difference. Via Wikipedia:


> _.......... Water molecules dissociate into equal amounts of H3O+ and OH−, so their concentrations are almost exactly 1.00×10−7 mol dm−3 at 25 °C and 0.1 MPa. A solution in which the H3O+ and OH− concentrations equal each other is *considered a neutral solution*. ......... Pure water is neutral, but most water samples contain impurities. If an impurity is an acid or base, this will affect the concentrations of hydronium ion and hydroxide ion. Water samples that are exposed to air will absorb some carbon dioxide to form carbonic acid (H2CO3) and the concentration of H3O+ will increase due to the reaction H2CO3 + H2O = HCO3− + H3O+. The concentration of OH− will decrease in such a way that the product [H3O+][OH−] remains constant for fixed temperature and pressure. Thus these water samples will be slightly acidic. If a pH of exactly 7.0 is required, it must be maintained with an appropriate buffer solution........._





Yugang said:


> What I am reading is that with KH approaching 0 the HCO3/CO2 buffering capacity is insufficient and the log relationship between pH and CO2 concentration breaks down leading to potentially a crash.


If you don't have any carbonate buffering (dKH) the dissolved CO2 (the small amount that becomes H2CO3) <"will lower the pH">, but as soon as you have enough dKH to neutralise that acid the pH will go to ~pH8, the  <"pH ~ HCO3- ~ CO2 equilibrium point at 420 ppm atmospheric CO2">. When you don't have any buffering then pH is just a movable feast, but the changes in ionic concentration are really small and that is what matters.

cheers Darrel


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## Yugang (27 Jun 2022)

dw1305 said:


> When you don't have any buffering then pH is just a movable feast, but the changes in ionic concentration are really small and that is what matters.


This is very helpful, and if I understand you correctly there is no reason to worry when KH approaches 0.

I was triggered by a post from Tom Barr, #2, who mostly talks from a sound scientific understanding as well as practical experience
_"Well no, you will not be able to determine at a KH of 0. pH test probes will also not work on pure water. You have some salts but no HCO3.  HCO3/CO2 is an acid base buffered system. Without the base, there's no pH/KH relationship. The system will crash, it might not have done this yet for you, but you'll get burned at some point. And have dead fish."_

It is an old post, perhaps Tom didn't have his PhD  yet


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## dw1305 (27 Jun 2022)

Hi all,


Yugang said:


> and if I understand you correctly there is no reason to worry when KH approaches 0.


Yes and no unfortunately, it is back to the <"unknown unknowns"> and freshwater being both:

<"Very variable in its chemical composition">, and
a very efficient <"amphoteric solvent">.
So now we are really at <"horses for courses">, and fish (and plants) adapted to hard water aren't going to have the physiological adaptations to survive in very soft water. Some people will argue that <"fish will adapt to the situation they are placed in">, but I don't subscribe to that view.  Personally I use fish (and plants) that naturally occur in <"water with similar chemistry"> to that which I can provide.

Because water is a very efficient solvent soft water will always be "tannin stained" with humic substances and <"it is these substances"> that provide the <"buffering system in very soft water">*.  If you placed most fish into DI water? Osmotic effects are going to do for them fairly quickly as they lose salts to the surrounding water and can't replace them.

*Morris, C., Val, A.L., Brauner, C.J. and Wood, C.M., 2021. The physiology of fish in acidic waters rich in dissolved organic carbon, with specific reference to the Amazon basin: ionoregulation, acid–base regulation, ammonia excretion, and metal toxicity. _Journal of Experimental Zoology_ Part A: Ecological and Integrative Physiology, 335(9-10), pp.843-863.


Yugang said:


> was triggered by a post from Tom Barr, #2, who mostly talks from a sound scientific understanding as well as practical experience
> _"Well no, you will not be able to determine at a KH of 0. pH test probes will also not work on pure water. You have some salts but no HCO3. HCO3/CO2 is an acid base buffered system. Without the base, there's no pH/KH relationship. The system will crash, it might not have done this yet for you, but you'll get burned at some point. And have dead fish."_


Tom (@plantbrain ) is <"right about pH meters">, after that I'm guessing that this really relates to water without any humic substances. This isn't a criticism of Tom, just a reflection that he comes from <"a very different place"> as a scientist, a place where ecology (and shades of grey) aren't really relevant.

cheers Darrel


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## Yugang (27 Jun 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Yes and no unfortunately, it is back to the <"unknown unknowns"> and freshwater being both:
> 
> ...


Thank you so much Darrel, and apologies for causing you so much trouble.

I believe it is fair to observe the reality that very few people are actually reporting on tragic incidents with KH =0 and CO2 injection. While we do not need to know the full science, do not controll all parameters, it seems not the biggest threat in real life.

A take away that I have from this discussion is that it can be quite tricky to use a pH controller when KH is really low. Some of our friends with really beautifull tanks and fish  are doing this, perhaps not realising the risks involved. Now we may be lucky, as a pH that goes down (rather than up) will cause the controller to switch off.


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## dw1305 (27 Jun 2022)

Hi all, 


Yugang said:


> A take away that I have from this discussion is that it can be quite tricky to use a pH controller when KH is really low. Some of our friends with really beautifull tanks and fish are doing this, perhaps not realising the risks involved. Now we may be lucky, as a pH that goes down (rather than up) will cause the controller to switch off.


I'm <"not a CO2 user">, but if I was I definitely <"wouldn't use a pH controller">. Drop-checkers may have their disadvantages, but they don't have any moving parts, or electronics, that can go wrong.  

It is the same really with fish keeping, I would <"only aim for 0dKH"> if I was keeping (and trying to breed) <"black-water fish">, for maintenance of <"soft-water fish">, somewhere below 4dKH is fine.   

cheers Darrel


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## _Maq_ (27 Jun 2022)

Are pH controllers reliable in water with very low conductivity? (Just asking, I've never used them, I don't inject CO2.) From my experience, pH metering in low conductivity (< 25 µS/cm) is a bit tricky.


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## Yugang (27 Jun 2022)

dw1305 said:


> I'm <"not a CO2 user">, but if I was I definitely <"wouldn't use a pH controller">. Drop-checkers may have their disadvantages, but they don't have any moving parts, or electronics, that can go wrong.


I respectfully disagree on the pH controller, they work very well.
I now use my probe only to check my pH curve, no control, and a pH curve gives much better visibility than a drop checker. 
I continue testing my CO2 spray bar, monitoring daily with my pH probe, and it proves much better than anyting I ever used before  It is really fascinating to observe how long it will take for the hobby to pick it up. Probably a few years, and that is an interesting observation in itself.


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## dw1305 (27 Jun 2022)

Hi all, 


Yugang said:


> I respectfully disagree on the pH controller, they work very well.
> I now use my probe only to check my pH curve, no control, and a pH curve gives much better visibility than a drop checker.


I can see the advantage of a pH meter to measure the pH drop, it is the controller bit that worries me.

cheers Darrel


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## Yugang (27 Jun 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I can see the advantage of a pH meter to measure the pH drop, it is the controller bit that worries me.
> 
> cheers Darrel


If you add a controller (with some points of failure) to an inherently safe injector (CO2 spray bar), you have the best of both worlds.
I am not using my pH controller really as a controller currently (only to monitor) as I  learn that CO2 Spray Bar brings already the benefits that I need.


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## GreggZ (27 Jun 2022)

Yugang said:


> A take away that I have from this discussion is that it can be quite tricky to use a pH controller when KH is really low. Some of our friends with really beautifull tanks and fish  are doing this, perhaps not realising the risks involved. Now we may be lucky, as a pH that goes down (rather than up) will cause the controller to switch off.


I'm curious what are the risks you are referring to?


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## Yugang (27 Jun 2022)

GreggZ said:


> I'm curious what are the risks you are referring to?


When KH gets really close to 0, the water does not longer provide the carbonate buffering capacity in relation to CO2 injection, and you get into less predictable Co2/pH relation. So the usual pH/CO2 charts do not longer apply.

I have never noticed it with my pH controller, as I always was at least at KH = 1. For your tank, I would be a little worried


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## _Maq_ (27 Jun 2022)

GreggZ said:


> I'm curious what are the risks you are referring to?


Take nitrification. Nitrification makes water more acidic. If for any reason, par example, feeding more than usual, the volume of nitrification exceeds its normal, pH runs down. If there's sufficient buffer capacity, you hardly notice. But if not, pH may jump suddenly down.


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## dw1305 (27 Jun 2022)

Hi all,


_Maq_ said:


> From my experience, pH metering in low conductivity (< 25 µS/cm) is a bit tricky.


That would be <"one of the issues">. You can raise the conductivity of a water sample with a <"neutral salt"> (usually NaCl or KCl) and that will give you a reading a little bit more quickly. Obviously this isn't an option in the tank. 

For long term usage you would really want an <"ISFET probe"> on a meter which uses a "reference field effect transistor" (REFET), rather than a silver chloride (AgCl) glass reference electrode. <"The problem with"> all non-solid state pH meters is that they are <"continually losing potassium ions (K+) to the tank water">.


Yugang said:


> If you add a controller (with some points of failure) to an inherently safe injector (CO2 spray bar), you have the best of both worlds.


Point taken, it would be more where the pH controller was a single point of failure and adjusted the CO2 level without <"belt and braces">.

cheers Darrel


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## GreggZ (27 Jun 2022)

Yugang said:


> I have never noticed it with my pH controller, as I always was at least at KH = 1. For your tank, I would be a little worried


I understand your concern but I am not worried. Not even a little. 

There are many things affecting pH and conductivity in our tanks. "Pure" water only exists in a lab.

As to my tank, I can only tell you what you I have observed after years of running RO water no carbonates added. Degassed pH is very stable, almost always exactly at 6.25. I drop pH to 4.85 daily via CO2 injection. Any more and the fish begin to show signs of stress.

I've tested this too many times to count over the years. It's always the same. Very stable degassed pH and very stable pH drop. And it's not just me, it's the same for many others I know that are running tanks similar to mine.

As to pH controllers, I know they are controversial and there are strong arguments on both sides. Some here have said they are dangerous, but I use them because of the safety they provide. With a tank full of mature hard to replace, expensive Rainbowfish I look at my controller as a fail safe. If anything were to happen to other parts of the system the controller turns off the CO2 at my set point. Gives me pieced of mind. 

I also like being able to adjust pH drop in small increments. If I want to see the effect of dropping/raising pH by 0.05 more/less I can just dial that in. Then set and forget and no worries. If you talk to people who have pH controllers in general they wouldn't be without them.

The only caveat is if your dKH is not stable. If so you are better off fine turning flow rate with a flow meter or very good needle valve.


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## Wookii (27 Jun 2022)

GreggZ said:


> If anything were to happen to other parts of the system the controller turns off the CO2 at my set point. Gives me pieced of mind.



What failsafes do you have in the other direction Gregg - for example if the pH probe fails and returns a higher pH than actually occurring, causing too much CO2 to be pumped into the tank? 

I think that’s the scenario most folks fear when relying on a pH control to determine CO2 delivery, so if you have a way to mitigate that, it would be good to know?


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## GreggZ (27 Jun 2022)

Wookii said:


> What failsafes do you have in the other direction Gregg - for example if the pH probe fails and returns a higher pH than actually occurring, causing too much CO2 to be pumped into the tank?
> 
> I think that’s the scenario most folks fear when relying on a pH control to determine CO2 delivery, so if you have a way to mitigate that, it would be good to know?


Good question. I buy good quality equipment and calibrate it frequently. I've been using an American Pinpoint Marine unit for many, many years now. The probes eventually do need to be replaced but I usually get about three years out of them. I calibrate once a month and rarely is it off my more than 0.03. 

I also use a flow meter to keep my flow rate just slightly higher than the controller needs to keep my pH at my target. So if there were a failure it would be less of a disaster. But that has never happened. 

In general I would be more worried about adverse changes in things like surface agitation and needle valve drift than a good pH controller. Even changes in plant mass and light levels can change demand for CO2. For me safety of my fish is not the only reason I use one. I also like to keep my pH drop at an optimized level regardless of other changes in the tank. It makes every other thing easier.


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## Yugang (28 Jun 2022)

Wookii said:


> What failsafes do you have in the other direction Gregg - for example if the pH probe fails and returns a higher pH than actually occurring, causing too much CO2 to be pumped into the tank?
> 
> I think that’s the scenario most folks fear when relying on a pH control to determine CO2 delivery, so if you have a way to mitigate that, it would be good to know?


Some day in the future people will realise that a CO2 spray bar is inherently safe, it will overflow excess CO2 in emergency situation, and when used as the injector for a pH controller will mitigate any risk of  that pH controller failing


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## GreggZ (28 Jun 2022)

Yugang said:


> Some day in the future people will realise that a CO2 spray bar is inherently safe, it will overflow excess CO2 in emergency situation, and when used as the injector for a pH controller will mitigate any risk of  that pH controller failing


What is a "CO2 spray bar"??


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## Yugang (28 Jun 2022)

GreggZ said:


> What is a "CO2 spray bar"??


CO2 Spray Bar


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## kschyff (28 Jun 2022)

@GreggZ   thank you very much for the detail about your pH readings. I just read the article about tanks with low pH values (2HrAquarist) and I now think I may know what may have gone wrong way back when I started (and eventually stopped) using EI. Initially my CO2 never reached a point where it the pH was below 6.4 and I suspect that my micros may not have been used optimally as I am using CSM+B, where the Iron chelate works optimally below or around a pH of 6. Is my reading around this correct?

Additionally, I always assumed that if my drop checker was slightly yellow my plants would suffer tremendously. After reading the above article this is clearly not necessarily the case. In short, thanks for all the insight.


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## GreggZ (28 Jun 2022)

kschyff said:


> @GreggZ   thank you very much for the detail about your pH readings. I just read the article about tanks with low pH values (2HrAquarist) and I now think I may know what may have gone wrong way back when I started (and eventually stopped) using EI. Initially my CO2 never reached a point where it the pH was below 6.4 and I suspect that my micros may not have been used optimally as I am using CSM+B, where the Iron chelate works optimally below or around a pH of 6. Is my reading around this correct?
> 
> Additionally, I always assumed that if my drop checker was slightly yellow my plants would suffer tremendously. After reading the above article this is clearly not necessarily the case. In short, thanks for all the insight.


Yes CSM+B uses EDTA and is better for very low pH tanks. DTPA is a better choice when pH is higher. Now was that your problem? Who knows?

A planted tank has a lot of moving parts and the first thing folks tend to blame is fertilization. Many times issues are not tied to fert dosing at all. In fact a well run tank can get by on a pretty wide range of dosing. 

As to drop checkers if I used one it would be pretty much pure yellow. Remember a drop checker is nothing but a liquid pH test and liquid pH tests in general are not very accurate. Of course much depends on ones ambitions in the hobby. The more light you provide and the more difficult plants you choose dialing in CO2 becomes more important.


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## Hanuman (29 Jun 2022)

Zeus. said:


> Good question. TBH I cant remember ATM 😬, I've even ask @Hanuman if he can remember





John q said:


> I think? Clive's suggestion of 3 ~ 4kh was once mentioned by him in regards to stability when injecting and monitoring Co2 (ph readings) I could of course be completely wrong on this.
> Truth is and Clive would definitely say take no notice of kh, work with what you have, do whatever is the easiest, the plants won't care.
> Also as Greggz points out, there are lots of beautiful tanks out there that run 0 ~ 1 KH.





Wookii said:


> I suspect that it’s a hang over from the now debunked belief that low KH could lead to pH crashes.


Since we are in a new era, we decided to removed the dKH values from the pre-set EI regimes in the latest update.


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## kschyff (30 Jun 2022)

Apologies for resurrecting this thread again, but for some reason I can't get hold of the CSM+B micros anymore. I will have to order from abroad or come up with an alternative. I can get the GLA Micromix (EDTA 42%+DTPA 14%) in the US. I am reluctant as I can't see on rotalabutterfly where I would select this as my micro mixture. Any suggestions that might not require so much expense?


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## Zeus. (30 Jun 2022)

kschyff said:


> Apologies for resurrecting this thread again, but for some reason I can't get hold of the CSM+B micros anymore. I will have to order from abroad or come up with an alternative. I can get the GLA Micromix (EDTA 42%+DTPA 14%) in the US. I am reluctant as I can't see on rotalabutterfly where I would select this as my micro mixture. Any suggestions that might not require so much expense?


Just choose 7% Fe and your done done




Some of the EDTA and DTPA will be other elements also


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## Hanuman (1 Jul 2022)

kschyff said:


> I can get the GLA Micromix (EDTA 42%+DTPA 14%) in the US. I am reluctant as I can't see on rotalabutterfly where I would select this as my micro mixture.


It is actually in the IFC Calculator so you can make all the calculations you want there . But looking at the backend now I noticed some slight changes in the composition compared to the website. Some of these companies like to modify their recipes for no apparent reason other than screwing with the IFC calculator 😂. GLA is a company that never answered either of my emails, sms or support question. Poor service indeed, but their product is probably just fine.


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