# Whats your pH profile?



## Jaap (9 Nov 2014)

Hello

I would like to know other peoples pH profiles....so whats your pH profile?


Thanks


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## Andy Thurston (9 Nov 2014)

Heres mine from august i haven't checked since

1200 ph 7.3 blue
1600 Co2 on ph 7.3 blue
1800 Lights on ph 5.9 blue/green 
1900 ph 5.9 green 
2000 ph 5.9 lime green
2100 co2 off ph 5.9 lime green
2200 ph 6.2 lime green
2300 ph 6.4 lime green
2330 lights off ph 6.5 green
0000 ph 6.7 green
0030 ph 6.8 green
0600 ph 7.4 blue

Photo period and co2 period have been extended lights are now on 2 hours earlier and off 1 hour later
Don't even ask about kh other than its fairly low


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## Edvet (9 Nov 2014)

from the top of my head 6.5 in the morning , at lights on app 5.3.


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## Jaap (10 Nov 2014)

Anyone else?


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## pepedopolous (15 Nov 2014)

40cm cube (60l), KH = 5, BPS = 4, low surface agitation

CO2 comes on at 10:00 (2 hours before lights ON)
10:00---6.79
11:00---6.29
12:00---6.00
13:00---5.92
14:00---5.83
15:00---5.83
16:00---5.77
CO2 goes off at 16:00 (2 hours before lights OFF)


This appears to be a poor profile as the pH decreases only by about 1 unit in 4 hours. However, with low surface agitation, CO2 added previously does not fully de-gas overnight. 

If I create more agitation by angling the spraybar upwards, the pH rises to around 7.4 in the morning and after 2 hours with the CO2 on, decreases to 6.0 However, I can't get it any lower and the BPS is practically uncountable.

At the moment I'm favouring low surface agitation as so much CO2 is wasted otherwise. I don't appear to have the 'magic' 1 pH unit drop but the drop checker placed just above the lowest point of the substrate is never anything but yellow. 

I'm pretty sure any shrimp or fish would die in this tank thought I do have some snails which come out towards the evening. Nonetheless, I still have some plants (_Hemianthus_) doing poorly. 

No doubt someone is going to say that I'm not adding enough CO2 or have poor flow/distribution. I maintain I have high CO2, adequate flow, and low light (less than 30 PAR).

P


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## parotet (16 Nov 2014)

I will repeat it in a few days but I have played a little bit this weekend with a pHmeter. I have also measured my KH for the first time! Lower than expected, my tap water is KH 12 and in my tank it is KH 10. Anyway I assume it is somewhere around 10-12, doesn't really matter, it's a medium KH that's all.

I have an Inline diffuser attached to the outflow pipe, 65 liters medium PAR tank, spraybar all along the tank, 3 bps and 2.5 hours on before lights. I manage to go from  pH 7.4-7.5 to pH 6.4-6.5. DC from blue to yellowish at the end of the day everywhere in the tnk. Fish and shrimps do well, but I have a good my surface rippling which makes me probably lose a lot of gas but keeps my critters ok, and what is more important, I can keep my ph stable during the light period. Check this to know what I mean: http://www.prirodni-akvarium.cz/en/index.php?id=en_co2ph

Jordi


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## pepedopolous (16 Nov 2014)

Hi Jordi,

I did that pH profile on Saturday having changed the water on Friday evening. If you are dosing EI, the pH will rise over the week as the salts have a buffering effect. 

I've read the article you posted and I have another aquarium with livestock where I maintain high surface agitation with a Koralia flow pump. The plants-only aquarium that I posted the pH profile for is my 'experimental' tank. 

Are you managing to successfully grow any carpeting plants with your set-up?

Cheers,

P


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## parotet (16 Nov 2014)

Yes, but non demanding species (Eleocharis and Hydrocotyle tripartita). Have a look to the last post in this thread
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/new-setup-from-2-to-just-plants.34374/page-2

Jordi


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## parotet (19 Nov 2014)

Hi all

I finally made it today. Specs: 65 liters, KH 9, spraybar, medium light, 3 bps, inline atomizer, good surface rippling



Can be probably improved but this was what I meant regarding good rippling. I am probably loosing a lot of gas but this is the best way I found (actually I did not discover this, just good reading and good advice ) to keep the Co2 levels stable during the light period (6.59 to 6.57 was the maximum variation). Look what happens when the solenoid switchs off the CO2... the agitation degasses the water column very quickly and in a few hours my DC is blue.

Jordi


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## Jaap (19 Nov 2014)

parotet said:


> Hi all
> 
> I finally made it today. Specs: 65 liters, KH 9, spraybar, medium light, 3 bps, inline atomizer, good surface rippling
> 
> ...


Ok so you have a larger tank than I do, we have the samw kH and with 3 bps you manage to drop the ph by 1 unit while I drop it by 1 unit with much much higher bps...and I have no leaks....also I inject it to the inlet of filter through an inline difuser...how come you can do this with less bps?


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## pepedopolous (19 Nov 2014)

Well the bubbles may be a different size and I think if you have a higher working pressure, a bigger amount of gas is contained within the bubble (and vice versa).

P


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## parotet (19 Nov 2014)

Not sure mate... but as mentioned bps don't mean too much. To really compare the co2 delivered to both tanks I can imagine two options: Co2 meter (very expensive) and measuring the volume of gas/hour (in some threads it is explained how to do this but I'm afraid there are not too much references for comparing). Let's see what experts think about this but IMO your pH profile looks reasonable. 

Jordi


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## mlongpre (20 Nov 2014)

You all can compare co2 rates by using a measuring cup or similar with ml marks. Put the measuring cup into the water and flip upside down.  Make sure there is no air trapped in the cup. Now take your co2 device/ tube and put it under the cup making sure all the co2 goes into the cup. Time it to say 1 minute and pull the co2 device/tube from under the cup away so no more co2 goes in the cup. Read how much co2 has been fed into the cup. There you will get a figure of how many ml's of co2 you inject per figure of time, in this example, per minute. I believe this is a much better way to compare co2 injection rates between tanks.


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## parotet (20 Nov 2014)

mlongpre said:


> You all can compare co2 rates by using a measuring cup or similar with ml marks. Put the measuring cup into the water and flip upside down.  Make sure there is no air trapped in the cup. Now take your co2 device/ tube and put it under the cup making sure all the co2 goes into the cup. Time it to say 1 minute and pull the co2 device/tube from under the cup away so no more co2 goes in the cup. Read how much co2 has been fed into the cup. There you will get a figure of how many ml's of co2 you inject per figure of time, in this example, per minute. I believe this is a much better way to compare co2 injection rates between tanks.


Yes, that is what I was suggesting but the problem is that I am not sure if once you have the volume there will be other reference values for comparing. In Tom Barr's forum there was a thread about this, maybe there is some useful information there.

Jordi


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## Edvet (20 Nov 2014)

Looks very good Jordi, if the distribution is good you shouldn't see problems.


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## Jose (19 Mar 2015)

Very nice thread guys.

Im injecting co2 24/7 as to get a 1.1 ph drop all the time. Im doing this in order to not get any fluctuation during photoperiod, which induces algae supposedly. Its very hard for most people to have co2 stable like Parotets case because you need a lot of surface agitation and a lot of bps. Its better yes but i dont see any drawbacks with what Im doing. Bps is lower so its not wasting too much CO2. Fish should be fine as long as co2 is not over the top.
what do you guys think. Its still an experiment for me.


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## mlongpre (19 Mar 2015)

Jose said:


> Very nice thread guys.
> 
> Im injecting co2 24/7 as to get a 1.1 ph drop all the time. Im doing this in order to not get any fluctuation during photoperiod, which induces algae supposedly. Its very hard for most people to have co2 stable like Parotets case because you need a lot of surface agitation and a lot of bps. Its better yes but i dont see any drawbacks with what Im doing. Bps is lower so its not wasting too much CO2. Fish should be fine as long as co2 is not over the top.
> what do you guys think. Its still an experiment for me.



I'm really interested in how this turns out. I'm at a point where I'm going to try 24/7 injection. I can't for the life of me get my tank to perform. Leaves falling off, bba showing up on places, pinholes. Co2 right!?Have two full length spray bars. Great flow (I think). pH drops from 7.4 down to 6 and stays there. Kh of 5. Have to inject 4 hours before lights on but it gets there eventually and sticks. But my ph meter only has a resolution of .1 so I guess it could be moving a little. Tried light levels from 20 par up to 100 (guessing based on Internet figures). Lower par equals no growth and leave droppage and higher light gives skinny twisted brittle growth while dropping leaves. Dosing full ei with extra K. 15-20ppm no3, 5-10ppm po4, 30+ppm k. About 1.5ppm fe through csmb. 

So frustrating. Been trying to get it for at least two years now. I feel like I have a fairly good understanding of what needs to be done to run a tank but I'm just not seeing any results. Guess I'm just disappointed in myself for not being able to do this. Might need to get someone local to come out and help me.


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## Jose (19 Mar 2015)

If you want you can open a new thread for us to help  you out in the long run mlongpre. So far my algae has stopped and even subsided. It seems its all about co2 stability. I dont have to touch s thing and surface movement is just a little bit.

i think well need more info on your injection method. And a ph profile. Mainly you want ph to be stable during the photoperiod. I also think you might have diffusion problems towards the soil because your tank is quite high.


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## Jose (20 Mar 2015)

Can you say how much light youve got in there mlongpre? It doesnt look like a lot.


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## Andy Thurston (20 Mar 2015)

that looks very similar to my mates setup. I presume the co2 is fed into the powehead and back to the tank by the lower spraybar, if this is so then this is an excellent way of getting co2 into the water column. how many lph is your powerhead? and filter? also what is the size of your tank?
the only bba I can see is on the wood which suggests, to me, that this is caused by the wood decaying not co2.
the pinholes in the leaves all seem to be confined to the lower regions of the plants which suggests flow is an issue at the bottom of your tank.
another little thing, unstable co2 can be caused by not topping the tank up every day or 2, which leads to co2 levels reducing caused by the surface agitation increasing as the water level lowers.
what temperature do you keep the tank at? if possible reduce the temp., this will allow more gasses to dissolve in the water
 overall your tank looks very close to being stable and a few little changes should get you there


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## Jose (20 Mar 2015)

I think you could put a co2 dropchecker at the bottom of your tank and up the co2 slowly until its the right colour. The reason for this is that you cant take ph measurements that low under water.


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## Jaap (21 Mar 2015)

Could it be that a drop checker is yellow, nutrients, lighting, circulation are good and still have algae?


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## Jose (21 Mar 2015)

Definately Jaap. Just because you can (and thisis normally the case) have 5ppm in a part of the tank and 30 ppm in another, even though you might think your circulation is good. Also its not only about co2 ppm but also about its stability during photoperiod.


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## Jaap (21 Mar 2015)

Elaborate on stability please...


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## Jose (21 Mar 2015)

I mean stability through the photoperiod. So lets say if you are aiming at  having a ph of 6.5, then it should stay at this value for the whole of the photoperiod. What you dont want is your co2 to be climbing up through the photoperiod. So you need some degassing/surface ripple so that co2 doesnt accumulate in your tank. Any clearer?


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## parotet (22 Mar 2015)

Jose said:


> Im doing this in order to not get any fluctuation during photoperiod, which induces algae supposedly. Its very hard for most people to have co2 stable like Parotets case because you need a lot of surface agitation and a lot of bps


Hi, back home again... I'm not sure if this change in the pH measured is due to any combination of low bps, surface agitation, etc. or just a matter of the measurement accuracy (I use a pro pH meter which is stupidly accurate). Moreover I borrow only from time to time this pHmeter from work, but I continuously change the configuration (i.e. I increase the bubble rate when I have more biomass).... so the pH profile is just a way of ensuring that I am more or less on the right track or to corroborate what I can see with my eyes. Therefore I'm not really sure if the curve is exactly like this or if there is a variation in the pH of 0.05-0.1

Jordi


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## mlongpre (23 Mar 2015)

Sorry guys I didn't mean to hijack. 

I'll elaborate some on my tank if you don't mind Jaap. 

Tank
120x33x60 230 litre

Filter
Fluval 406 1500lph + 1200lph or so powerhead 

Light 
Currently I have a 120cm finnex ds 7000k. Based on other people's par readings it seems to put down about 40-50 par at the substrate at 60cm. 7hrs per day. 

Ph and co2
I have an inline atomizer on the Fluval 406 which is connected to the bottom spray bar. It also has the skimmer on it. The powerhead is running the top spray bar. I realize my tank is fairly deep and that a lot of current is needed to get the water to go all the way down the front of the glass then traverse the bottom. I feel like it should be good as I can see all the bubbles running along the bottom and then gently swaying the plants as it goes up the back wall. 

My ph is very stable at 6.0 during the photo period. I religiously top up my tank to the exact same height every night at lights out. If I don't do that my ph will be off by about .1 the next day. 

I also sometimes come across my skimmer getting clogged (underwater draw) and changing the amount it skims the surface and degasses. Therefore I have to check my skimmer every morning and make sure it's free of debris before co2 comes on. It might get me once a week. 

Temp
Tank is heater free and usually 24 or 25 degrees C. Sometimes 23 and rarely goes up to 26. 

I appreciate all the help fellas. 

Marc


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## parotet (23 Mar 2015)

Hi Marc

Looks pretty well... What's your problem? Do you have a pH profile? Are your plants covered with algae?

Jordi


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## Jose (23 Mar 2015)

mlongpre said:


> My ph is very stable at 6.0 during the photo period. I religiously top up my tank to the exact same height every night at lights out. If I don't do that my ph will be off by about .1 the next day.



Well done mate. Seems like you are doing things quite right. Whats the problem then?


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## Jose (23 Mar 2015)

Ups sorry. Didnt make the connection mlongpre. I get it now. Have you thought about what I said of putting a dropchecker down there? Maybe its just a question of upping your co2 a bit until it turns almost yellow. I understand you have a 1.4 ph drop? which is very good, but this is probably measured at the top of the tank.


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## mlongpre (27 Mar 2015)

Okay so a few more things. I do have a drop checker. It's got 5dkh fluid in it purchased from a shop. It turns yellowish green at 6.0 ph. 

10:30 PH 7.4 CO2 on
11:15 PH 6.6
12:00 PH 6.2
1:00 PH 6.1
2:30 PH 6.0 Lights on

9:00 PH 6.0 CO2 off
9:30 PH 6.2 Lights off

I've also noticed that my tank water doesn't completely degas during the night as my water from tank has gone up to 7.7 after sitting out for awhile. So is my ph drop really 1.7?

Still can't get the plants to grow well. Always stunting and twisting gnarled growth. Yellow patches everywhere on old leaves. Should a go under 40 par? Maybe try 30 or so? But then I'm getting down to such low light levels I probably don't even need co2. 


Co2 is extremely frustrating!!! 24/7 seems like a good work around to this constant headache. At least I'd be able to rule out co2 cause it would be stable right?


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## Jose (27 Mar 2015)

I think something is wrong with your measurement mlongpre. With that ph drop you are supposed to have 150 to 180 ppms of CO2 which is obviously imposible if you have fish in there.
Now, one possibility is that something might be interfering with your ph pen. Try turning off all thats connected to the electricity in your tank and then measure pH.

If your CO2 isnt completely degassed through the night then you probably havent got enough surface movement/ flow in the tank. Have you got any surface film?

How are plants evolving>? This is the main factor.

By the way I changed my mind on dropcheckers and believe they are wothless now.


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## Jose (27 Mar 2015)

mlongpre said:


> Should a go under 40 par? Maybe try 30 or so? But then I'm getting down to such low light levels I probably don't even need co2.


Yes try lowering light until problems get better. Using CO2 does not mean you need higher light, and using low light does not mean you dont need co2. In other words, the lower light is with co2 the easier it will be to manage while still obtaining great growth.

You see, the more light you have then the more available CO2 you need for  the plants cells. If this availability is not met then the plant will do all sorts of weird things including dying back.


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## Andy Thurston (27 Mar 2015)

Jose said:


> If your CO2 isnt completely degassed through the night then you probably havent got enough surface movement/ flow in the tank. Have you got any surface film?


 Not necessarily true! my dc never changes back to blue overnight and I only have a ph drop of .5 ph from gas on to lights on but if i take a sample of tank water and leave it to de gas for 2 days I get a 1.3 - 1.4 ph difference
and there's no film or algae in my tank, it also pearls like crazy every night
I've also read other members posts saying the same thing too


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## Andy Thurston (27 Mar 2015)

co2 injection is not that simple and if you think it is you will probably have problems, a bit like the 1point ph drop if you take that as gospel you might also run into trouble


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## Jose (27 Mar 2015)

Big clown said:


> Not necessarily true! my dc never changes back to blue overnight and I only have a ph drop of .5 ph from gas on to lights on but if i take a sample of tank water and leave it to de gas for 2 days I get a 1.3 - 1.4 ph difference



ideally you want all the co2 to degass. If you dont have good mixing and surface ripple your co2 will climb and not stay at a stable level during the day. 
Not having it all degassed through the nigh just means the off gassing isnt efficient enough in your tank. Can you get away with it? Maybe.


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## Andy Thurston (27 Mar 2015)

why its a waste, if your fish arn't gasping what's the point in de gassing it some people run co2 24 hours a day with less issues than people who use a solenoid


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## Jose (27 Mar 2015)

Big clown said:


> why its a waste, if your fish arn't gasping what's the point in de gassing it some people run co2 24 hours a day with less issues than people who use a solenoid



No its not a waste. If co2 is not degassing well in a few hours it means you have very little off gassing of CO2 which will make it very easy for CO2 levels to creep to lethal levels during photoperiod. It also means more CO2 fluctuations. Ill add the link to Tom Barrs threads when I have more time.

I add co2 24/7 myself and I can say this is not a good idea. After a few days fishes blood will saturate with co2 depending on the levels, so you wont be able to have 30 ppm of co2 continually if you dont giv fish a break.


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## Andy Thurston (27 Mar 2015)

fish get red gills well before they start gasping which is why red gills are better indicator than gasping. like i said , i have a 1.3 to 1.4 ph drop from standing sample and half a point between gas on and gas off so the fish are getting some respite, tank pearls daily within half hour of lights on no algae and there's obviously plenty of o2 in the water. fish are also very active at all levels of the tank. yes my methods may be different to tom barrs but it works in my tank.
fish are 4 years old so don't know about long term effects yet, but imo if they last over 5 years that's not a bad lifespan for them.
truthfully I couldn't tell you the kh or co2 ppm in the tank but i don't really care my fish and plants are healthy and that's ok by me regardless of what other peoples methods are.
stability is the key in my eyes how about showing me your own data instead of other peoples


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## Jose (27 Mar 2015)

So if you recommend EI to someone you need to show them your own experiments and data?Youve made your point, ive made mine let the op decide what he preffers.

Good luck if you think a hobbiests data/experiments would be better/more usefull than Tom Barrs results.


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## mlongpre (27 Mar 2015)

Big clown, do you know how much par you have with your lights? 

I'm not sure why my tank hasn't been fully degassing overnight. Both spray bars are right under the surface creating a fairly good ripple and I also have a slimmer which is skimming quite a bit in my opinion. PH stays stable at 6 so I'm assuming it equalizes with the degassing. The drop checker is at the very bottom and showing a good colour. I'll have to try and check the ph near the substrate and see if it's the same up top. 

If running co2 24/7, couldn't you just add something extra to drive off a little co2 at night while keeping the co2 running?  Just enough to allow the ph to return to a stable value before lights on.


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## Jose (27 Mar 2015)

Sorry mlongpre but do you add co2 24/7?


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## Andy Thurston (28 Mar 2015)

mlongpre said:


> Big clown, do you know how much par you have with your lights?
> 
> I'm not sure why my tank hasn't been fully degassing overnight. Both spray bars are right under the surface creating a fairly good ripple and I also have a slimmer which is skimming quite a bit in my opinion. PH stays stable at 6 so I'm assuming it equalizes with the degassing. The drop checker is at the very bottom and showing a good colour. I'll have to try and check the ph near the substrate and see if it's the same up top.
> 
> If running co2 24/7, couldn't you just add something extra to drive off a little co2 at night while keeping the co2 running?  Just enough to allow the ph to return to a stable value before lights on.


Yes I believe Amano uses air stones at night to drive off unwanted co2, there are lots of different ways of balancing co2 and o2 in the aquarium. Its all about balance if you drive off all the co2 at night then you need to add much more the following morning, I found that doing this with my tank made it much harder to achieve a stable level of co2 during the photo period. it was either climbing slowly throughout the photo period or not reaching the required level.
I wasn't trying to cause an argument in my earlier posts but trying to point out that each tank is different and require different methods to achieve results.
Tom Barr and Clive are both experts in planted tanks and if you do things slightly different to them then people start throwing quotes around from their posts. if you were to email Jim from the green machine I'm certain that you would find his approach was more like Amano's than Clive or tom, would you say they are not experts in their field? Clive, Tom, Jim, Amano all use different methods Who is right?... All of them, so learn from all of them! The right way to grow plants is the way that works best for you and your tank. Hope that makes sense
I've been neglecting my tank lately and have a sleight surface scum through not adding enough nutrients but here is a short clip of my surface movement

I have reasonable par not sure of the values but quite high I have a tmc colour plus 1500 tile running at 60% around 50 cms from the substrate over a 60l cube
I think many folk can be sloppy with their maintenance regime but most don't admit it, the most powerful weapon you have in your arsenal when dealing with various problems is water changes but this can sometimes make adjusting co2 levels quite tricky. for example if I change my water just before co2 comes on then my fish will be gasping at the surface at lights on.


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## Ghosty (28 Mar 2015)

Jose said:


> So if you recommend EI to someone you need to show them your own experiments and data?Youve made your point, ive made mine let the op decide what he preffers.
> 
> Good luck if you think a hobbiests data/experiments would be better/more usefull than Tom Barrs results.



Why? Tom bars started somewhere, and why wouldn't a fellow hobbiests data and experiments be useful to fellow hobbiest when that's what this whole forum is about? yes Tom bars is great but I can literally place my house on saying he himself learns from others experiments as well as us learning from his! Do you not experiment and find things out for yourself? I know I do

As of the comments above, 

The whole idea of having an aquarium in your home is to mimic nature, in nature water has flow, surfice agitation and plants, lights and an abundance of nutrients, aswell as other things biologically that are out of my vocabulary, 

So we need to juggle and cross each bridge when we come to it,

Also everyone stop locking horns and learn 

One love


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## mlongpre (28 Mar 2015)

Jose said:


> Sorry mlongpre but do you add co2 24/7?


Not on the tank I'm trying to get right and am talking about. I do run it 24/7 on my shrimp tank, but I'm not sure I'm getting any better results there.


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## Jose (28 Mar 2015)

The reason why I add co2 24:7 is because if co2 is till climbing while i open my big window then i get algae because there is some indirect light hitting the tank. I could cover the tank but its a pain everyday.


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## Jose (28 Mar 2015)

I was wondering mlongpre, could you add a videao? Its much easier that way.


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## Christos Ioannou (31 Mar 2015)

Hi UKAPS,

this is my pH profile, along with a description of how I got the readings and a couple of followup questions 

I am using this probe, connected to an Arduino, set to take a reading every 15 minutes. This probe cannot be submerged below a certain level, so I inserted the probe into a length of PVC tube and sealed the probe "water sensitive" top part with a piece of tubing to create a water tight setup. This allowed to take readings @ substrate level, where co2 is expected to be at the lowest concentration. The probe was placed behind a rock, and almost below the spraybar, a place where flow is at minimum - see the picture below.






pH profile taken on two consecutive days. On the 2nd day, I pushed a bit more co2 in the tank.

CO2 : 11:15 TO 18:00
LIGHTS: 12:30 TO 19:15
Ferts: EI
Substrate: molar clay (tesco cat litter)
A glass of tank water will read at 7.8pH within two days (equilibrium). Hence I suppose I have good surface movement and my water degases of co2 fully over night.

*Day 1




Day 2 (pushing slightly more co2)




Time for questions:*
1. 45 minutes after co2 is on, I achieve a pH drop of 1 unit. Is it OK to start lights 45 minutes after co2 is on instead of 1h 15min and safe on gas?
2. I run 3 x 32w CFL bulbs 60cm above substrate (30cm above water surface). Does it make sense to have diatoms/ some hair algae (currently spot treating with excel) with this pH profile? 
3. *Given the spot on which readings are taken*, is it likely that I still need to improve my circulation? I am asking since my hairgrass has black blades i/o green, growth is veeeery slow (+ some algae issues as above) 

Thanks!!!


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## mlongpre (24 Apr 2015)

Jose said:


> I was wondering mlongpre, could you add a videao? Its much easier that way.


Here is a short vid of the tank. Feel like I have decent flow. What is your opinion?


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