# Iron



## Mattant1984 (4 Sep 2022)

Hi guys,

I read somewhere that iron gets rapidly depleted in hard water so it's a good idea to dose it separately??

Is this correct?

Many thanks


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## KirstyF (4 Sep 2022)

I’m sure folks with more expertise will jump in but it depends on what you are dosing and the frequencies. 

If you dose micros 3 x pw (opposite to macro days) as many folks do, then in most situations that would be adequate but the type of Fe is relevant. DTPA Fe is a stronger chelate and therefore more stable in higher PH so plants will have access to it for a longer period, so this is generally recommended. EDDHA is a super strong chelate and can also be used, though most would say it’s not necessary in all but the most exceptional situations. 

The stronger the chelate, the harder the plants have to work to get to it however. 

I’m not aware of any particular benefit to dosing it separately to other micros, although there could be an argument that if you are using a strong chelate for Fe, you may effectively bind other elements of your micro more than you would like. (This is where it gets complicated 😏)

I have used the above method with DTPA in a hard water tank with good success for an extended period, but have recently noted some mild chlorosis. As a result, I am now dosing a small quantity of Fe gluconate on opposite days to my usual micro. (I front load my macros) This will potentially be easy for plants to access but won’t be available in the tank for very long. 

Results so far are promising but it’s early days.

Note, this not necessarily a recommendation, as all tanks are different and the chlorosis I’ve experienced may not even be an Fe issue. It’s a bit of trial and error.

If you don’t actually have an issue then just making sure you are using a suitable chelate may be all you need. 

As is often quoted ‘opinions may vary’ 😊


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## PARAGUAY (4 Sep 2022)

As l understand it iron is something of a essential micronutrient but you only need a very small amount . The symptoms of iron deficiency can be similar to  other nutrient deficiencys as @KirstyF says above


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## Mattant1984 (4 Sep 2022)

KirstyF said:


> I’m sure folks with more expertise will jump in but it depends on what you are dosing and the frequencies.
> 
> If you dose micros 3 x pw (opposite to macro days) as many folks do, then in most situations that would be adequate but the type of Fe is relevant. DTPA Fe is a stronger chelate and therefore more stable in higher PH so plants will have access to it for a longer period, so this is generally recommended. EDDHA is a super strong chelate and can also be used, though most would say it’s not necessary in all but the most exceptional situations.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your reply, this is all way way way to complicated for me 🤣🤣


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## KirstyF (4 Sep 2022)

Mattant1994 said:


> Thanks for your reply, this is all way way way to complicated for me 🤣🤣



Short answer is probably not! 😂

What fertilisers are you using? 

I do DIY ferts so am very unfamiliar with out of the bottle options, if this is what you are using. There are folks here however that will likely know what the content of your ferts are. If you let us know what you are using and the hardness and ph of your water that will help to get a recommendation. 😂


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## Mattant1984 (4 Sep 2022)

KirstyF said:


> Short answer is probably not! 😂
> 
> What fertilisers are you using?
> 
> I do DIY ferts so am very unfamiliar with out of the bottle options, if this is what you are using. There are folks here however that will likely know what the content of your ferts are. If you let us know what you are using and the hardness and ph of your water that will help to get a recommendation. 😂


I like the short answer more 🤣🤣

I'm using tnc complete and my pH is around 7.5, gh about 12 and kh about 15

Hope that helps 👍


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## aec34 (4 Sep 2022)

Mattant1994 said:


> I like the short answer more 🤣🤣
> 
> I'm using tnc complete and my pH is around 7.5, gh about 12 and kh about 15
> 
> Hope that helps 👍


@Mattant1994 your water and regime sounds very similar to mine. 
I do the odd squirt of an off-the-shelf iron product, plus occasionally Epsom salts for my crypts, if they look like they need it. (At first I just used a complete feed, but they looked poorly, I added stuff, they looked better!)
Note I’m not a CO2 user, and have the benefit of tiny tanks (@KirstyF laughs at the size of my tanks compared to hers 👋), so cost isn’t prohibitive.
My feeling is that crunching the numbers and DIY matter more the bigger your tanks get, and the more fussy your plants. Depends what your tank is like and what you are after 🙂


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## dw1305 (4 Sep 2022)

Hi all,





Mattant1994 said:


> I'm using tnc complete and my pH is around 7.5, gh about 12 and kh about 15


I think the iron source in TNC Complete is FeEDTA, so it may struggle to supply much available iron in hard water, like you have.

Cheers Darrel


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## Mattant1984 (4 Sep 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,I think the iron source in TNC Complete is FeEDTA, so it may struggle to supply much available iron in hard water, like you have.
> 
> Cheers Darrel


So maybe an added iron product might help?


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## Mattant1984 (4 Sep 2022)

aec34 said:


> @Mattant1994 your water and regime sounds very similar to mine.
> I do the odd squirt of an off-the-shelf iron product, plus occasionally Epsom salts for my crypts, if they look like they need it. (At first I just used a complete feed, but they looked poorly, I added stuff, they looked better!)
> Note I’m not a CO2 user, and have the benefit of tiny tanks (@KirstyF laughs at the size of my tanks compared to hers 👋), so cost isn’t prohibitive.
> My feeling is that crunching the numbers and DIY matter more the bigger your tanks get, and the more fussy your plants. Depends what your tank is like and what you are after 🙂


Thanks for your response, 
 My water is pretty hard and I am just adding tnc complete weekly however might start adding something similar to you.

The issue I have is my tank is 700 litres lol


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## John q (4 Sep 2022)

Mattant1994 said:


> I read somewhere that iron gets rapidly depleted in hard water


It does, ph related, but thankfully the plants uptake iron when it's available. I kind of suspect we are putting the cart before the horse, as in do you have iron deficiency? Throw some pics up of the tank mate, but I suspect tnc complete dosed every other day will be fine, even in hard water.


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## dw1305 (4 Sep 2022)

Hi all,


Mattant1994 said:


> So maybe an added iron product might help?


You could try <"Chempak Sequestered Iron"> or other FeEDDHA  based product.


John q said:


> as in do you have iron deficiency? Throw some pics up of the tank mate, but I suspect tnc complete dosed every other day will be fine, even in hard water.


Picture would be a good idea, iron deficiency has a <"very distinctive look"> of <"pale new leaves">.






cheers Darrel


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## Mattant1984 (4 Sep 2022)

John q said:


> It does, ph related, but thankfully the plants uptake iron when it's available. I kind of suspect we are putting the cart before the horse, as in do you have iron deficiency? Throw some pics up of the tank mate, but I suspect tnc complete dosed every other day will be fine, even in hard water.


Hi John,

Thanks for the reply, I have added a pic of the tank and most plants seem to be growing OK. Crypts especially are growing nicely. I really want the stem plants to get some more height but it just seems to be taking a while (not I've planted some new hydraulics  on the right have side last night)

I do dose tnc complete but only once a week.


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## Mattant1984 (4 Sep 2022)

John q said:


> It does, ph related, but thankfully the plants uptake iron when it's available. I kind of suspect we are putting the cart before the horse, as in do you have iron deficiency? Throw some pics up of the tank mate, but I suspect tnc complete dosed every other day will be fine, even in hard water.


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## Mattant1984 (4 Sep 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> You could try <"Chempak Sequestered Iron"> or other FeEDDHA  based product.
> 
> ...


Cheers Darrel,

Unsure if I have an iron deficiency I just thought it might help with quicker growth 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️ maybe I'm just being impatient lol


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## John q (4 Sep 2022)

Mattant1994 said:


> I do dose tnc complete but only once a week.


You could possibly try dividing/splitting the dose 3x a week, but to be honest plant health from that picture looks OK to me.


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## Mattant1984 (4 Sep 2022)

John q said:


> You could possibly try dividing/splitting the dose 3x a week, but to be honest plant health from that picture looks OK to me.


Thanks John,

So it's a 700 litre tank so I add 70ml per week.

Would you stick to the 70ml once per week but over 3 days or could I up it a little and add say 30ml 3x per week?
Would more ferts increase plant growth??

Many thanks 😊


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## John q (4 Sep 2022)

Mattant1994 said:


> Would more ferts increase plant growth??


Yes if ferts were the limiting factor. 

Your plants look healthy enough to me but  the best way to answer your question is to add a bit more, it won't do any harm. Try adding 30ml 3x a week, 90ml in total and see what happens. This hobby is all about trial and error, that's why it's so enjoyable 😉


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## plantnoobdude (4 Sep 2022)

John q said:


> from that picture looks OK to me.


Agreed! Stunning tank @Mattant1994


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## Mattant1984 (4 Sep 2022)

John q said:


> Yes if ferts were the limiting factor.
> 
> Your plants look healthy enough to me but  the best way to answer your question is to add a bit more, it won't do any harm. Try adding 30ml 3x a week, 90ml in total and see what happens. This hobby is all about trial and error, that's why it's so enjoyable 😉


Thanks so much for the help John, never dealt with ferts before so I'm so worried about adding too much and causing an issue


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## Mattant1984 (4 Sep 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Agreed! Stunning tank @Mattant1994


Thanks so much 🙏


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## KirstyF (4 Sep 2022)

It is indeed a lovely tank. 👍😊

At 700ltrs, considering DIY ferts at some point would help with the bank balance for sure. If you are feeling brave just put a shout out. Lots of folks can help to get you started and it’s not as tricky as you might think…..honest! 

I would say from my own experience of hard water, that even when using EI level ferts and Co2, I’ve never seemed to have the explosive growth that some folks talk about, and I’ve also found that new plants can take a bit longer to get going. 

Although in fairness, I find my 700ltrs time consuming enough so less frequent trimming can be a blessing. 😊


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## Mattant1984 (5 Sep 2022)

KirstyF said:


> It is indeed a lovely tank. 👍😊
> 
> At 700ltrs, considering DIY ferts at some point would help with the bank balance for sure. If you are feeling brave just put a shout out. Lots of folks can help to get you started and it’s not as tricky as you might think…..honest!
> 
> ...


Hi Kirsty,

Thanks for your reply, the whole fertiliser thing is all very new to me but I do agree the tnc is going to end up being expensive in the long run so dry ferts will definitely be something I will look into.

I didn't actually realise that plants wouldn't grow quite as quickly in hard water so ive learnt something there lol.

I would really like my stem plants (hydros and bacos) to be hitting the surface to be able to fill out the back but giving me having hard water does this make it harder or is it just a case of allowing more time??

Thanks

Matt


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## _Maq_ (5 Sep 2022)

Looking at your pic, I don't notice any clear signs of iron deficiency. Detailed pics would help, though.
I'd like to add that plant species differ a lot in their ability to take up iron in alkaline environment. _Hygrophila corymbosa_ is rather bad at it. Many Cryptocorynes can handle it well, esp. those widely used. Among more demanding plants Ammannias and Alternantheras can handle alkaline water, but I can't swear they'd do well in THAT hard one.
When I say that they can handle it well, it's meant that EDTA or even unchelated iron chloride would do.


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## KirstyF (5 Sep 2022)

Mattant1994 said:


> Hi Kirsty,
> 
> Thanks for your reply, the whole fertiliser thing is all very new to me but I do agree the tnc is going to end up being expensive in the long run so dry ferts will definitely be something I will look into.
> 
> ...



I can only quote my personal experience and unfortunately haven’t grown either of those plants since I moved house and acquired liquid rocks to plant in. You may find that given some time they will kick things up a notch. 

As Maq says, there’s some variation between species for sure. 

I have Rotala H’ra that took a long time to really do anything but can now put on 4” or so on a good week.

I’ve had Cobomba in for at least 6 weeks now and not had a stem hit the surface yet, but they are starting to gain pace. 

Polysperma has done well for me (although ironically, I’ve previously grown it quicker in a low light, low tech with softer water 😂) and Hottonia palustris was also a fairly rapid grower - 2-3 weeks between trims on a rooted plant and somewhat longer for a planted top to need it’s first trim. (Some high techs will be trimming these plants weekly) 

Wallichii is my nemesis and I have yet to find any way to get it to grow in my tank, though I know it has been done in hard water, so I’m still obstinately trying (and failing 😂) with different methods. 

Hands down the fastest and most prolific plant in my tank are my Vallisneria Gigantica which grow 4ft long and have to constantly be thinned. (If I sat still long enough, I reckon I could actually see these growing 😳) but these are not exactly a stem plant and its no great surprise as they are well known for preferring hard water. 

So……sometimes it’s just having the patience to let the plants get their toes in and adapt and some plants are always going to be more of a challenge if hard water is not their happy place.  (At least until you develop the green fingered wizardry of some of our Uber experienced folks on here……Some of whom could grow  tumbleweed in the arctic i’m sure 😂) 

Some additional ferts may or may not help but the plants will let you know soon enough. I would certainly recommend spacing out your dosing (as that should help availability) and to give ur stems a bit more time to see how they do.


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## Mattant1984 (6 Sep 2022)

KirstyF said:


> I can only quote my personal experience and unfortunately haven’t grown either of those plants since I moved house and acquired liquid rocks to plant in. You may find that given some time they will kick things up a notch.
> 
> As Maq says, there’s some variation between species for sure.
> 
> ...


Great reply thanks again Kirsty,
Funny you should mention vallis, that was one of the first plants in my tank and has been one of the only ones not to grow!! I even removed them a couple of weeks ago as they just started to die off. Everything around them did well but they just didn't move 🤔🤔

I will definitely spread out the dosing throughout the week and give them plenty of time. I'm sure they will come good eventually.

Thanks again for all your help 👍👍😁😁


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## KirstyF (6 Sep 2022)

Mattant1994 said:


> Funny you should mention vallis, that was one of the first plants in my tank and has been one of the only ones not to grow!! I even removed them a couple of weeks ago as they just started to die off. Everything around them did well but they just didn't move 🤔🤔



😂 Now isn’t that ironic. 😏

I think that’s the thing about all this planted tank lark, it’s never one rule fits all.

But hey! Stops us getting bored eh! 😊


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## Mattant1984 (6 Sep 2022)

KirstyF said:


> 😂 Now isn’t that ironic. 😏
> 
> I think that’s the thing about all this planted tank lark, it’s never one rule fits all.
> 
> But hey! Stops us getting bored eh! 😊


Exactly trial and error, keeps us interested and at least the plants aren't super expensive. When I had a reef tank before the cost is just insane!!! You end up spending £40 on a coral and 2 weeks later it dies and you just think what's the point lol


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