# Diary of a Rather Large Tank



## jayne (4 May 2008)

Some of you may have read my previous threads about my new large tank.

I thought I'd do a diary,so you can follow me step by step into the unknown  

Everything started last autumn,when we decided we would definitely go ahead,the radiator was taken off the wall,the floorbaords taken up and the floor strengthened.The radiator was replaced by a slimline vertical one on a different wall,and we contacted Phil,who is a cabinetmaker and a friend and he started to look around for suitable wood and the design started to take place.

Christmas 2007 came and went and finally Phil and a load of wood plus three tubular steel strengthening bars arrived.The cabinet was made and installed on site as it was too wide to get through the door.












As you can see there is no middle strengthening support in the cabinet,hence the three steel bars across the top.This was designed like this for two reasons.One to make installing the sump easier and two because we want the door to open completely concertina style for ease of maintenance.The doors will be added after the sump is in place.

I should just say here that Phil has used this design on other fish tank cabinets he has made and it has worked before.

Two days later the fish tank base was put in position this was a double 12mm siliconed together and after 48 hours to allow the base to dry,and the main tank body was installed,by my hubby and one of his workmates.I love to watch men working so I stood around taking photos and making tea  

Again i should point out that my husband Billy makes and installs fish tanks and filtration systems as part of his job so allowing him loose on such a large project wasn't as stupid as it may appear!

First the back panel:-






Then the 2 sides:-




and the front:-




then hubby had to climb in to silicone it from inside and fix the sucker supports to hold it in place until it's properly cured:-










Then the whole thing was left in place for one week to dry and then today we have installed the plumbing for the towers and also the inner glass frames.Both towers will be covered with black acrylic.




So that's it for now,the sump and the upper bracing bars are next for the tank,but we may have to place the wood in situ first before the bars,as you can see below


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## jayne (4 May 2008)

We have been searching for large pieces of wood for some months now and have sourced a few from Wharf in Nottingham.These have been soaking in the Koi pond but today we took them out to jet wash them and to place them in a separate large vat which will be covered to prevent any light getting in.
















As you can see,these are pretty substantial pieces and may well have to be put in place being the upper bracing bars are siliconed onto the tank.We will probably screw them together to keep everything in place.


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## George Farmer (4 May 2008)

An overused word here, but worthwhile in this case - awesome!


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## JamieH (4 May 2008)

George Farmer said:
			
		

> An overused word here, but worthwhile in this case - awesome!




George = speaker of the ultimate truth!


I am so bitterly jealous of this huge tank...


*Question for the more educated:* 

Won't having weirs make it hard to keep stable C02 levels?


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## JamesM (4 May 2008)

We... Want... More...


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## John Starkey (4 May 2008)

Hi Jane and Hubby,Wow this setup is going to be absolutley fantastic, could you tell me what the spec is and what kind of aquascape you have in mind,will it be low light or high light and so on please keep us up to date regularly,take care john. 8)


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## JamieH (4 May 2008)

given the size of the tank: this thread might be of interest!

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=1586


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## ulster exile (4 May 2008)

I think we may have found a possible contender for another UKAPS meet  that must be amazing to see in the flesh!


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## jayne (4 May 2008)

john starkey said:
			
		

> Hi Jane and Hubby,Wow this setup is going to be absolutley fantastic, could you tell me what the spec is and what kind of aquascape you have in mind,will it be low light or high light and so on please keep us up to date regularly,take care john. 8)




I've just realised after reading your post John that I haven't posted the tank dimensions  .

It's 8'x3'x3' and the sump will be approx.6'x2' although that hasn't been finalised yet.We are going to use 4 x 150w metal halides and for the first time we will use Co2 and go a bit more high tech - our existing planted tank is low tech no Co2.We both like the slightly overgrown,jungle type look rather than the more formal type.
I'll be posting very regularly asking for advice and suggestions about how to do things properly,you'll probably get fed up


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## jayne (4 May 2008)

ulster exile said:
			
		

> I think we may have found a possible contender for another UKAPS meet  that must be amazing to see in the flesh!



You'd be more than welcome,we have a barbecue and we're not afraid to use it  
(and we're only in Stourbridge so not too far for you  )


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## Ed Seeley (4 May 2008)

This looks amazing already!  I must have walked past those wood pieces many times at Wharf wishing I had a tank large enough to use them in!  Fantastic and can't wait to see more on the filter design.  Are you installing a permanent water change system to make maintenance dead easy?  Otherwise water changes on a tank that size will be a PITA won't they?


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## jayne (4 May 2008)

Ed Seeley said:
			
		

> This looks amazing already!  I must have walked past those wood pieces many times at Wharf wishing I had a tank large enough to use them in!  Fantastic and can't wait to see more on the filter design.  Are you installing a permanent water change system to make maintenance dead easy?  Otherwise water changes on a tank that size will be a PITA won't they?



The tank will have it's own RO unit set up with a float for automatic top ups but as far as large water changes are concerned we are still undecided about setting up a perry pump and solenoid.The tank is just a few feet from an outside drain so it's fairly easy to attach a tube to a pump in the sump and whizz the water outside.


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## Arana (4 May 2008)

Wow,can't wait to see this planted up...most of us just dream about a tank of this size


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## Steve Smith (4 May 2008)

I dream about a tank half this size, this is amazing!   Good luck with getting it all planted up   What are your thoughts on planting and substrates etc?


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## TDI-line (5 May 2008)

Awesome    tank.

But just one question, have you any thoughts of how you will physically plant the tank without getting in there lol.


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## Aeropars (5 May 2008)

Thats tiny.... you shuld see my saltwater tank.... i call it the carribean


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## LondonDragon (5 May 2008)

How thats looks amazing! can't wait to see it filled and planted and stocked!! hehe
Just a question, your husband does this for a living? I am looking for someone to build on-site a tank also! 

Thanks and good luck


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## bugs (5 May 2008)

So, what about the dog then? Is it like the birds that miners used to take down in the mines? If it starts to look scared you know something is awry?


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## nickyc (6 May 2008)

WOW!!!  I reckon if my b/f could build me a tank like that I'd probably marry him   

Thought the same as TDI though - how will you plant and maintain it without going swimming?!  

Please keep us posted with plenty of pics - this is the kind of tank we all dream about!


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## planter (6 May 2008)

You KEEEEEERAAAAZY fishkeepers !! love it! 

8x3x3 = 450 gallons thats 900 watts to acheive 2 watts pre gallon!!!!   thats 6 x 150 watt MH?? (sorry just thinking aloud) and substrate OMG I hope hubby has plenty of contacts in the trade!

Intersting to see what you do with the sump too wont those over flows vent off gas? 

Thanks for posting and please keep us updated ....


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## aaronnorth (6 May 2008)

planter said:
			
		

> You KEEEEEERAAAAZY fishkeepers !! love it!
> 
> 8x3x3 = 450 gallons thats 900 watts to acheive 2 watts pre gallon!!!!   thats 6 x 150 watt MH?? (sorry just thinking aloud) and substrate OMG I hope hubby has plenty of contacts in the trade!
> 
> ...



or one of these

http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/index.p ... ts_id=1084


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## planter (6 May 2008)

trouble is aaronorth that unit is only 180cm long! this tank is  240cm long and 90cm wide! Ive just installed MH over a 240 x 90 coral tray and used 4 x 120cm double 150 watt (8 x 150) units 2 front 2 back (expensive business!)

Any hints guys on how your going to light this beast?


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## aaronnorth (6 May 2008)

planter said:
			
		

> trouble is aaronorth that unit is only 180cm long! this tank is  240cm long and 90cm wide! Ive just installed MH over a 240 x 90 coral tray and used 4 x 120cm double 150 watt (8 x 150) units 2 front 2 back (expensive business!)
> 
> Any hints guys on how your going to light this beast?



so it is!


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## ceg4048 (6 May 2008)

Hi,
     I would strongly recommend that you limit the level of lighting to your original proposal of not much more than 0.5 kilowatt worth of halides. The wpg rule becomes irrelevant for both very large and very small tanks. For high light tanks CO2 becomes a serious issue rather quickly.

Cheers,


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## bugs (6 May 2008)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Hi,
> I would strongly recommend that you limit the level of lighting to your original proposal of not much more than 0.5 kilowatt worth of halides. The wpg rule becomes irrelevant for both very large and very small tanks. For high light tanks CO2 becomes a serious issue rather quickly.
> 
> Cheers,



Where would you say the rule tails off for large tanks?


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## John Starkey (6 May 2008)

jayne said:
			
		

> ulster exile said:
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Hi Jayne, i would love to come and see your setup when its finished and as you say i only live in worcester so please keep in touch,regards john ps: take a look in my journal because i like the jungle scapes its called johns 450ltr 112g.


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## ulster exile (6 May 2008)

john starkey said:
			
		

> jayne said:
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I meant to say "yes please!"


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## jayne (6 May 2008)

We will be using 4 x 150w metal halides with a moonlight for night time viewing.I've asked about this previously and was told this would be enough.The lights will be individual pendants rather than a multi light unit.

A couple of people has mentioned unstable CO2 because of the type of filtration.It is our intention to flood the towers and add a small pump in each one to circulate the water through the towers to make sure there is no stagnation.Hopefully this will enable the CO2 levels to remain stable as there will be no trickling effect.However,as with everything else we are very much open to suggestions  

As far as maintenance/initial planting is concerned then yes we(or more likely Billy  ) will be getting in there,there really is no other way!That's why we are going to screw all the wood into position to keep things as stable as possible.

We are using ecocomplete for our substrate,another 10 bags was ordered today,taking us up to 28 bags  We may use cobbles underneath in areas where we want a greater depth,we'll have to see.

The black acrylic will be attached to the towers tomorrow,and once that's dry we'll start to play with the positioning of the wood,photos will follow of course.

Finally,just to say that John,Chissie and anyone else is more than welcome to visit when we are up and running


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## Steve Smith (6 May 2008)

jayne said:
			
		

> Finally,just to say that John,Chissie and anyone else is more than welcome to visit when we are up and running



Ace!

Wow, 28 bags of EC!  Thats a lot of substrate


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## Arana (6 May 2008)

jayne said:
			
		

> Finally,just to say that John,Chissie and anyone else is more than welcome to visit when we are up and running



wow that should be one not to miss, watch out tho' i know from experiance they are a rowdy lot


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## ceg4048 (6 May 2008)

bugs said:
			
		

> ceg4048 said:
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Bugs,
        It's hard to say, there are so many variables and it's not real clear "line in the sand" :? I'd say things start to get dodgy at the 400 litre mark and beyond. It's not just the light but the flow in the tank whose predictability starts to deteriorate. It also depends on biomass. At tanks startup it's always best to be cautious and limit the wattage as well as the photoperiod. At tank startup we are most vulnerable due to poor plant mass and poor bacteria colony population. There is cycling going on in filter, water and substrate and other submerged surfaces so it's advisable to use about 50% of the total wattage the first few weeks or so - that goes for all tanks. This in particular is tricky because large and frequent water changes are usually called for early to rid the tank of ammonia. It's not clear how jayne plans to automate water changes but it is something to think about.

Cheers,

Cheers,


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## TDI-line (7 May 2008)

Sounds like a group tour.


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## Aeropars (9 May 2008)

Tour?! I wanna go swimming!


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## Egmel (12 May 2008)

Just thought I'd come and join the drooling crowd.  With that size tank to play with you could really have some fun with 'hidden jewels' in a jungle scape. ie having small specimen plants hidden around the tank so that every time you look you find something new.

Ceg, I think Jayne was saying that they are going to have an RO unit hooked up for auto top-ups and one of the ideas was to use the pump in the sump to send water down a nearby drain during larger water changes (Though my eco side says you should pump it into a water butt for watering the garden!).  Obviously EI and it's associated 50% water changes are a no go here!

Looks like it'll be a relatively low maintenance tank with conservative lighting levels which should make the CO2 less difficult as the uptake wont be as great as in some of the higher tech tanks.  Even though I have next to no idea about CO2 my guess would be that the best diffusion method would be a series of diffusers spaced around the tank at points with appropriate flow.

I'm really looking forward to seeing this evolve over the coming months.  A tank most of us can only dream of


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## jayne (12 May 2008)

Hello all

The towers are now in place and totally dry so we will be placing the wood in position next(possibly tonight).

I'll take photos of course  .

I'm not sure if you have read my thread on the fish forum but I am currently attempting to raise about 20 chocolate gourami fry,guess where they'll be living if they make it


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## Arana (12 May 2008)

can't wait to see the new photos


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## ceg4048 (12 May 2008)

Egmel said:
			
		

> Ceg, I think Jayne was saying that they are going to have an RO unit hooked up for auto top-ups and one of the ideas was to use the pump in the sump to send water down a nearby drain during larger water changes (Though my eco side says you should pump it into a water butt for watering the garden!).  Obviously EI and it's associated 50% water changes are a no go here!
> 
> Looks like it'll be a relatively low maintenance tank with conservative lighting levels which should make the CO2 less difficult as the uptake wont be as great as in some of the higher tech tanks.  Even though I have next to no idea about CO2 my guess would be that the best diffusion method would be a series of diffusers spaced around the tank at points with appropriate flow.



Umm...I afraid there is nothing conservative about 0.7 kilowatts of metal halide lighting.    Diffusers spaced around the tank would be a hopeless dream in this size tank. Look how much difficulty people have with diffusers in just a 30 gallon tank. The best bet would be to inject into the sump. That way the effluent into the tank is already saturated. The trickiest design issue for the sump will be how to seal it to avoid CO2 evaporation, but yet to allow access to the sump for maintenance. You'd also want to avoid excessive splashing inside the sump to avoid CO2 loss.

Cheers,


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## jayne (12 May 2008)

We've put the wood in tonight,just three pieces,but they are large pieces!

We've also fixed the upper bracing bars,which are currently being supported by wooden planks,giving the tank a lovely 'mock tudor' look,at least for the next 48 hours until the silicone is completely cured.
















As far as CO2 is concerned we will be injecting it into the sump.The design will incorporate tight fitting cover glasses to stop gas escape,and minimise splashing etc.


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## Arana (12 May 2008)

WOW!!


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## LondonDragon (12 May 2008)

Now that is a lot of wood, looking pretty good, can't wait to see it planted, you are going to need a loooooooot of plants


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## jayne (13 May 2008)

LondonDragon said:
			
		

> Now that is a lot of wood, looking pretty good, can't wait to see it planted, you are going to need a loooooooot of plants



I must admit that I am a bit concerned about the amount of plants I need to buy,I know that the only way to help to combat algae is by planting heavily from the start but i have no idea how many plants to start with and whether I need to concentrate on stem plants that grow fast or whether I can set up with the swords/crypts/lilies etc that I want eventually.

I'm also unsure about what types to buy for the background in view of the height of the tank,I want plants that will grow tall without looking stringy,the only types I know are onion plants and giant vallis.

I'd be very appreciative of any advice folks :?


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## LondonDragon (13 May 2008)

Some people use floating plants when they setup a tank which grow fast, might be something to look into also!


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## beeky (13 May 2008)

Many of the swords grow too big for most tanks eventually and Aponogeton ulvaceous(sp?) as well. Crypts like C.balansae trail across the top in 'normal' tanks. It's rare that people have the space to grow these plants to their full potential and usually dump them when they get too big.

Go slowly and make sure you do those daily 50% water changes and it'll be fine....


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## jayne (13 May 2008)

beeky said:
			
		

> Go slowly and make sure you do those daily 50% water changes and it'll be fine....


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## ceg4048 (13 May 2008)

jayne said:
			
		

> ...I must admit that I am a bit concerned about the amount of plants I need to buy, I know that the only way to help to combat algae is by planting heavily from the start...



jayne,
         Combating algae is much more than about having xyz number of plants. It's better to take a "holistic" view of a tank so that we can see it from an ecological and environmental standpoint. Having lots of plants does not in and of itself prevent algae, but is a significant element in a system, or approach which helps to establish and stabilize the tank's ecology. Too many people look at a tank and see only it's size or only it's plants or only the fish. Few people ever consider the real workhorse of a planted tank which are the bacterial colonies. The same biology at work in a small tank is also at work in a big tank. The trick is to think about how to efficiently accomplish the ecology for the tank.

Your question regarding number of plants was addressed in this thread=> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1612&p=16764#p16764" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; which, for the number of plants you get is a bargain. You can fill in the key spaces by purchasing additional specimen plants and you can decorate the wood by tying ferns and large anubias to it. The only way to avoid the stringy look of stem plants is to prune them frequently which will make their stems thicken and become more robust.

But this is only part of the story. One way in which algae is typically triggered is by high light combined with a high or unstable ammonia loading rate in the water column (there are other trigger mechanisms but these two have the highest correlation). In order to reduce the risk therefore you can start the tank with reduced lighting and limited photoperiod. 

Ammonia production is combated primarily by bacteria. During tank startup the bacterial populations are low and unstable. Therefore the filter media you start out with should be media you currently have in use. More importantly, the substrate needs to contain bacteria colonies and should be seeded with organic material such as peat, which provides carbohydrates for the bacteria. 

I believe you mentioned that you intended to use a so-called enhanced substrate such as Ecocomplete. The organic material in the sediment will provide food for the bacteria and the high quantity of plants will pump oxygen into the substrate enabling the bacteria colony to grow and to oxidize the ammonia. The goal here therefore is to accelerate the growth of the bacterial colonies.

Plants that develop large root structures are significant in that they do a much better job of interaction with the sediment and experiments have shown that the area of sediment surrounding large rooted plants such as Swords and Crypts are better oxygenated than areas having plants with lesser developed root structures. My feeling therefore is that the planting of these types is advantageous, especially in a configuration such as yours where sediment/root interaction is imperative.

The addition of CO2 enhances the plants ability to produce food for the bacteria and to oxygenate the substrate. Plants will also directly remove some of the ammonia from the water column. The more plants, the greater will be this ammonia removal, the higher will be the oxygenation rate and the faster, more stable will be the rise in bacterial population and diversity.

So the combination of substrate bacteria seeding, filter bacteria seeding, CO2, nutrient dosing, high plant density and lower lighting will all combine to reduce the development of algae.

The remaining item is water changes. Although I can appreciate the size of the tank, neither ammonia nor algal spores are sympathetic to your water volume and they will populate the water column to a significant degree. Serious thought should be given to water changes regardless of tank size. Water changes is the single most effective way of algal spore and ammonia removal so the more it is accomplished the better off you will be. There is also no need to use RO water exclusively as tap water will serve the purpose, so the issue of water changes should be at least considered.

Cheers,


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## jayne (13 May 2008)

Thank you very much for your comprehensive reply,I'm really getting my knickers in a twist about this aspect of the tank - so much that I'd forgotten about my previous post on the plants forum  

I've read your reply several times and it all seems to make pefect sense,I'm going to take a 'chill pill' and enjoy the plants as much as the rest of the set up  .


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## aaronnorth (13 May 2008)

This is going to be awesome!


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## beeky (13 May 2008)

aaronnorth said:
			
		

> This is going to be awesome!



There's no pressure Jayne, really.....


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## jayne (13 May 2008)

beeky said:
			
		

> aaronnorth said:
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You can go off people y'know


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## ceg4048 (13 May 2008)

jayne said:
			
		

> ...I'm going to take a 'chill pill' and enjoy the plants as much as the rest of the set up  .



Exactly, that's the whole point.    If you really like swords then you ought to take a look at the XL size Tropica plants available here (and at other stockists) http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/index.p ... th=255_290

I would particularly recommend Tropica Echinodorus 'Ozelot' XL. A stunning plant often used as a centerpiece due to it's never ending display of maroon and bronze colored spotted leaves.

Since they are XL to begin with they will establish quicker and you will already have focal points. If you combine these with Ferns tied to the wood you can get a "fuller" look sooner.

Cheers,


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## sanj (13 May 2008)

Wow Jayne!!

this is a really exciting dream project. I want to eventually have a large tank, maybe not quite as big as yours, but I i live in a terracced house and have floor joists....as it is i have two 400 litires inthe living room and sometimes worry about the weight!

Hmmm...maybe i need to find a partner who builds tanks?  

Do you have any idea about what fish you will be stocking?

Looking forward to seeing more progress.


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## Ray (14 May 2008)

Hats off to you Jayne, a most audacious project!   

It might be worth importing your plants directly from Singapore - check out http://www.aquaspotworld.com/ Aquaspot world - he has 26 varieties of crypt and a similar number of swords - you could have a forest of unusual varieties.  There is a thread where Ed reviewed them and found them quite good, also they sometimes post sage advice on this forum.  Normally the shipping offsets the better prices but in your case it would be spread over so many plants...  Whoever you buy from, you should ask for a bulk discount   

Personally like Clive said, I'd plant up as you mean to go on and rely on low light to keep algae at bay as things get established.


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## Ed Seeley (14 May 2008)

They were good for me, but maybe you might be best to work out a list of what plants you want and see what everyone's got here going spare.  I bet you could plant a lot up from other people's clippings.  You are certainly welcome to any spare stuff from my tanks.


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## Arana (14 May 2008)

you could have a UKAPS planting party..enterance fee = 1 specimen plant


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## PM (14 May 2008)

WOW!  Can't wait to see it with plants


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## jayne (15 May 2008)

The bracing bars are completely dry now so the wooden supports have been taken off.Billy has also siliconed some glass wedges to the floor of the tank to make extra sure the wood can't kick forwards into the glass.
Next will be the substrate


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## JamesM (3 Jun 2008)

Any updates?


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## jayne (4 Jun 2008)

The sump arrived last night and tonight the plumbing should be finished and then it should be all systems go


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## aaronnorth (4 Jun 2008)

jayne said:
			
		

> The sump arrived last night and tonight the plumbing should be finished and then it should be all systems go


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## plantbrain (4 Jun 2008)

Good idea with the silicone for the wood.

This is a deep tank however, plan accordingly. Think about what you are willing to prune and do. The large 50% water change will allow you to prune and work low in the tank without going under water........I'd suggest a venturi mazzei valve for this tank size.

It will mix the CO2 very well.
Also, have the ability to change the light intensity if possible, you have gone this far already, may as well do it right.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## REDSTEVEO (10 Jun 2008)

Wow just seen this thread. What an awesome tank.......weeeeerrreallgointdieinhell. Build it and they will come  

Plants: Me personally, I would have to have some massive mega tiger lillies in there just so that you could see the beautiful shoal of Turqouise Discus shoaling about underneath them.........sorry did I suggest Discus fish 8) ...well I never.

Good luck with this, will be keeping an eye open for the developments.

Steve.


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## JamesM (27 Jun 2008)

How's it going now Jayne?


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## jayne (28 Jun 2008)

I'm sorry for the delay in updating,there's been a lot of 'life stuff' going on  

Anyway,we chickened out of the high tech,CO2 system in the end,at least for now,but the tank has been set up for a while now and seems fine.We currently have 3 x 150w halides but the tank still doesn't look very bright so we may experiment with another one.

Despite soaking the wood for several weeks/months in our koi pond one piece has still leached tannins into the water,but it doesn't look too bad and I'm doing large water changes twice a week.

The fish we moved over have settled well,our wild caught festivums have already spawned,so they must be happy.

Now the tank is up and running it's worth all the waiting and worrying (and paying),but I think if it were a high tech system with lots of fast growing stem plants it would be very time consuming indeed,so we may well leave things as they are - but never say never,watch this space!


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## JamesM (28 Jun 2008)

Awesome Jayne! 

I think you're right about going too high tech at this stage.. the work involved in that monster would drive me nuts :?


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## aaronnorth (28 Jun 2008)

simply amazing! Beautiful angels you have there, i would hate to have to be trimming the plants in that tank everyweek, it would be a nightmare, i thonk you have made the right decision. Sorry if this has been asked before, but how do you do water changes? is it all plumbed in somehow?


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## JamesM (23 Oct 2008)

Any more updated Jayne?


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## tennis4you (24 Oct 2008)

Holy tank batman!!!  That thing is a monster, but I love it!  I have a 125 gallon and that is tough enough to maintain.


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## Simon D (11 Nov 2008)

and now? Five and a half months later..........

What happened, it was looking so good?   

Please update us.

Regards 

Simon


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## jay (12 Nov 2008)

Probably fell in it!!


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## JamesM (4 Mar 2009)

Any updates on this, Jayne?


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## Simon D (4 Mar 2009)

What a shame! Will we ever find out?


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## leetaylor (5 Mar 2009)

my word...i would have to win the lottery to get the ok from my GF to have a tank that big...i am sooooo green!


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## sanj (12 Jan 2010)

JAYNE!!!!

where are you? need more updates.


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