# Severe cyanobacteria outbreak.



## Nick potts (12 Jan 2021)

Hi guys, looking for a bit of help with a newly flooded tank.

Setup as a dry start around 1-2 months ago and had been growing well so decided to flood it last week.

35x28x30cm 27L tank.
28 watts of LED running for 6hrs a day. (currently only running 1 light to see if that helps)
Pressurised CO2 starts at 2pm and off at 5pm, drop checker nice and green all-day.
500lph filter returning water via a spray bar, there is lots of flow in the tank.
Tropica soil and JBL volcano mineral substrate.
3ml of the aquascaper ferts added daily.

I am currently doing 80-90% water changes every other day to try and keep it at bay, but it is spreading quickly and can cover most of the tank in 24hrs.

Plants are a full carpet of monte carlo, 
rotala h'ra
rotala wallichii
limnophila hippuridoides, I am sure there is more in there I am forgetting.

Any help greatly appreciated, I have dealt with this stuff before in my reef tanks but never on this scale.

Thanks

Nick


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## Nick potts (13 Jan 2021)

anyone?


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## Libba (13 Jan 2021)

Post photos so we can see how your plants are doing. I'm willing to bet it's a CO2 issue. Is there any reason you only run the CO2 for three hours but have lights on for 6?


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## Nick potts (13 Jan 2021)

I'll get picture up when the lights come on.

Sorry mistake on the co2 don't know why I put that. Co2 comes on at 2pm and lights at 4pm, then co2 off at 9pm lights off at 10pm.

Drop checker is green throughout the photo period.

I have read that low nitrates might contribute, tested mine yesterday and they are around 15-20sh (very hard to see the difference in my test kit.


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## Zeus. (13 Jan 2021)

HI Libba, and welcome to the forum

When CO2 is being injected into a tank, the most likely cause of any issues is most likely to be CO2 related, its not the CO2 concentration ([CO2]) its self, however the stability of the the [CO2] during the first 4-5hours of the photo period, getting the [CO2] stable for this first 4-5hrs can be tricky for folks new to CO2 injection.

Having good flow in a CO2 injected tank, does help many folk achieve the results they are after, plus it does help supply the CO2 at a faster rate to the plants and get the CO2 down to the substrate level. Most folk aim for a filter output of x10 to the tank size in litres. So for 100 litre tank 'most' folk would be advise to aim for a filter output of 1000litres per hour. The x10 guideline is what is general accepted @ UKAPS by many of the experience scapers and experts is a good starting place. Its not a rule as there as so many factors to consider. The x10 guideline can be a combination of filter and powerheads output.

One of UKAPS much respect experts on CO2 @ceg4048 (aka 'Clive') has many posts on here and often quotes 'FLOW is King' in the high tech tank, I personally believe 'Clive' to be correct about flow as his claims do seem to fit the current evidence and physics of diffusion in water, CO2 diffuses 10,000 slower in water than air so having good flow makes sure the CO2 gets delivered to the plants.   

As long as your nitrate levels don't reach 0.0 ppm there shouldn't be an issue. If you think your not dosing enough just dose 10% extra watch your plants if they improve your fert regime was limited by one of the nutrients you dose, which one is tricker to diagnose.

Lots of folk have great success with All In One (AIO) ferts, for a small tank they can be a great way to fertilise your plants esp if low tech, the bigger your tank or high tech DIY ferts are often a very cost effective solution, but require some reading on.

Volcanic rock, Tropicia aqua soil and ADA aqua soil all have Cation exchange capacity (CEC ) properties which make running a planted tank easier, so contain nutrients like ADA AS and others not so much. These CEC properties have a limited life esp if the water your using for your tank is hard/very hard, over time the active sites on the rock/siol get blocked by the minerals in hard water, having soft water helps keep these active site free from minerals - I am unsure at what level of hardness these active sites get block or what level of soft water they become free/active.

I have all forms of 'algae' for in my tanks, as I monitor them closely, its when one gets out of control its an issue.

Some pics , full tank and close ups, would greatly help.

Zeus


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## Nick potts (13 Jan 2021)

Zeus. said:


> HI Libba, and welcome to the forum
> 
> When CO2 is being injected into a tank, the most likely cause of any issues is most likely to be CO2 related, its not the CO2 concentration ([CO2]) its self, however the stability of the the [CO2] during the first 4-5hours of the photo period, getting the [CO2] stable for this first 4-5hrs can be tricky for folks new to CO2 injection.
> 
> ...



So good advice Zeus, I'll get a picture of the tank up when lights come on, i was meant to do it yesterday.

I have tested nitrates again with someone else ready the colour and it's sitting around 20ppm. Flow is a 500lph filter, it is only running some sponges as relying mostly on plants and soil for biofiltration, it a hang-on type so head hight loss will be minimal and just looking in the tank you can see good flow.


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## Nick potts (15 Jan 2021)

Some pics of the tank taken yesterday.

The drop checker is greener than it looks in the pictures and the diffuser isn't usually there, I was getting ready to clean it


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## jaypeecee (15 Jan 2021)

Hi @Nick potts 

In your photos, I'm not sure that I'm seeing much cyanobacteria. I'm looking for the characteristic blue-green colour but I'm mostly seeing bright green. There is one exception to this - notably, image ID 20210114-211417.

JPC


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## Nick potts (15 Jan 2021)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Nick potts
> 
> In your photos, I'm not sure that I'm seeing much cyanobacteria. I'm looking for the characteristic blue-green colour but I'm mostly seeing bright green. There is one exception to this - notably, image ID 20210114-211417.
> 
> JPC



Hi mate, circled in the pics below.

The stuff in image 20210114-211417 is the same as the rest of the tank, but the colour and thickness varies depending on the area of the tank

It has all the characteristics of cyanobacteria, it forms nice mats of slime, but it's more reddish in colour than blue/green, I know it comes in red, brown and a few other colours.


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## Nick potts (15 Jan 2021)

Aquatic Plant Science said:


> Suppressing Cyanobacteria with Hydrogen Peroxide Is More Effective at High Light Intensities​
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks, will take a look


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## Onoma1 (15 Jan 2021)

Hi Nick, I have struggled with cyanobacteria in the past and know how difficult it is to completely eradicate. I would suggest manual removal with a siphon, cleaning your filter and a large water change followed by a complete black out for three to four days (longer if possible).  Followed by regular large water changes.  This *should* help shift it. It won't, however, address the underlying conditions that allowed it to establish in the first place and it may come back. Zeus suggested some approaches and principles that have worked for others in changing the dynamics of their tank system which will help ensure it doesn't return. 

There are lots of threads on the forum on this topic... In my case it forced me to rethink my approach to tank management towards a different philosophy behind managing a planted tank based on biologically rich dirted substrates, encouraging diverse micro-organisms, lots of emergent and floating plants with long light periods and very light dosing.


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## thesorcerous (16 Jan 2021)

I have had this problem recently and I used Ultralife Blue Green Slime Stain Remover (found on eBay for about £12). I put in an air curtain at the same time during treatment. No water change for a week, and then a couple of 80% changes and it all went.

Rob


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## jaypeecee (16 Jan 2021)

Hi @Nick potts 

Thanks for the circled culprits. The most common species of cyanobacteria in the freshwater aquarium environment are the blue-green _Oscillatoria_. I am by no means an expert in this complex field but I was keen to learn more about the 'Blue-Green Menace' when I was confronted with the stuff in May last year. May I suggest that you take a look at the following thread and then come back with any questions you may have?






						Cyanobacteria Identification - At Last!
					

Hi Folks,  Like many other aquarists, I have had cyanobacteria (aka 'BGA') grow in my tanks. And I started reading about this stuff. Of course, I initially thought BGA was algae. Why else would it be known as BGA (Blue-Green Algae)? But I later discovered that it's not an algae at all. It's a...



					www.ukaps.org
				




I should add that I'm not sure all your circled culprits are cyanobacteria. Some look like algae to me.

JPC


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## Nick potts (16 Jan 2021)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Nick potts
> 
> Thanks for the circled culprits. The most common species of cyanobacteria in the freshwater aquarium environment are the blue-green _Oscillatoria_. I am by no means an expert in this complex field but I was keen to learn more about the 'Blue-Green Menace' when I was confronted with the stuff in May last year. May I suggest that you take a look at the following thread and then come back with any questions you may have?
> 
> ...


Thanks again mate, i'll have a read of that thread.

Anyone have any thoughts on this, I am 99% it's cyanobacteria based on appearance and similarities to the cyano i have had before in marine setups, but open to other opinions, i would rather it be something else 

Really don't fancy tearing this tank down


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## Nick potts (16 Jan 2021)

thesorcerous said:


> I have had this problem recently and I used Ultralife Blue Green Slime Stain Remover (found on eBay for about £12). I put in an air curtain at the same time during treatment. No water change for a week, and then a couple of 80% changes and it all went.
> 
> Rob


Thanks Rob. 

I am trying to stay away from chemicals as much as I can, but may be an option if I can't shift it and before I tear the tank down.

I have added an airstone that runs at night and have been doing large 80-90% changes every other day, but this stuff seems to grow back in a matter of hours.


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## jaypeecee (16 Jan 2021)

Hi @Aquatic Plant Science 

I downloaded both your cited papers. I actually did an experiment some time ago to check out the use of H2O2 with cyano. It was totally ineffective. I was following a protocol described in another scientific paper, which I still have somewhere in Dropbox. If I'd been _spot treating_ the cyano, it would have probably taken me a few days to do that.

JPC


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## Nick potts (16 Jan 2021)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Aquatic Plant Science
> 
> I downloaded both your cited papers. I actually did an experiment some time ago to check out the use of H2O2 with cyano. It was totally ineffective. I was following a protocol described in another scientific paper, which I still have somewhere in Dropbox. If I'd been spot treating the cyano, it would have probably taken me a few days to do that.
> 
> JPC


I did read an article on aquasabi about using 3% hydrogen peroxide to treat cyano.









						Treatment with hydrogen peroxide - Aquascaping Wiki
					

H2O2 against algae




					www.aquasabi.com


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## jaypeecee (16 Jan 2021)

Hi @Nick potts 

Please read the thread I mentioned. If you don't have time right now, save it for bedtime reading! But, essentially, I used Easy-Life _Blue Exit_ in conjunction with a UV-C sterilizer, the latter of which may be optional. I avoided using some proprietary remedies that may contain antibiotics.

JPC


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## sparkyweasel (16 Jan 2021)

Nick potts said:


> Anyone have any thoughts on this, I am 99% it's cyanobacteria based on appearance and similarities to the cyano i have had before in marine setups, but open to other opinions, i would rather it be something else


I don't know it applies to all species, but cyanobacteria usually has a distinctive smell. Have you had a sniff?


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## Oldguy (16 Jan 2021)

Nick potts said:


> Any help greatly appreciated


As @sparkyweasel above cyanobacterial film has an earthy smell, difficult to remove the smell from fingers.

Siphon as much out you can. Spot treat with 11% H202, the film should 'boil'. Take care not to overdose the tank. Turn off circulation. If in doubt do a water change after dosing which should also remove damaged film. 12% and above is regulated by license in the UK.

Best of luck.


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## castle (17 Jan 2021)

Once BGA is in the substrate I don't think you can get rid of it?


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## Nick potts (17 Jan 2021)

castle said:


> Once BGA is in the substrate I don't think you can get rid of it?



I certainly hope that isn't true


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## Oldguy (17 Jan 2021)

castle said:


> Once BGA is in the substrate I don't think you can get rid of it?


A good point. It can be very persistent. I had it in a tank and tried a long term approach, I just left it to run its course and it fizzled out (took several months). The tank then recovered without any strip down and the plants regrew. It did look a mess in the intervening months.


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## Nick potts (17 Jan 2021)

I am guessing all H2O2 is the same, found some 12% solution online.









						Krissell Liquid Peroxide 12% 4 Litre
					

Specially formulated liquid peroxide. For use with permanent colour and bleach. Conditions hair, allowing easy application.




					www.chrisandsons.co.uk


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## Oldguy (17 Jan 2021)

Nick potts said:


> all H2O2 is the same


Yes, it is just available in different strengths. i.e. 1 ml of 12% plus 1 ml of water gives two mls at 6%.  (12% is often available on eBay and I suspect my 11% was in fact 12% but there are nit pickers everywhere.

Good luck and have patience, you will get there in the end. Your tank looks good.


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## Nick potts (17 Jan 2021)

Oldguy said:


> Yes, it is just available in different strengths. i.e. 1 ml of 12% plus 1 ml of water gives two mls at 6%.  (12% is often available on eBay and I suspect my 11% was in fact 12% but there are nit pickers everywhere.
> 
> Good luck and have patience, you will get there in the end. Your tank looks good.


Thank you.

Hopefully get it under control, though I am not known for my patience lol


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## jaypeecee (17 Jan 2021)

castle said:


> Once BGA is in the substrate I don't think you can get rid of it?


Hi @castle 

If cyanobacteria (aka BGA) is present in the substrate, it is likely to be visible between the bottom of the glass panels and the substrate itself - particularly where the tank is exposed to external light, be that room lighting or daylight. Cyano needs light to photosynthesize and survive.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (17 Jan 2021)

Aquatic Plant Science said:


> Cyanobacteria will not boil/produce O2 gas as it doesn't possess catalase, the enzyme that breaks down peroxide into water and oxygen.



Hi @Aquatic Plant Science 

This paper would suggest otherwise, I think:









						In Vivo Role of Catalase-Peroxidase inSynechocystis sp. Strain PCC 6803
					

The katG gene coding for the only catalase-peroxidase in the cyanobacterium Synechocystis sp. strain PCC 6803 was deleted in this organism. Although the rate of H2O2 decomposition was about 30 times lower in the Δ katG mutant than in the wild type, the strain had a normal phenotype and its...



					jb.asm.org
				




Happy reading!

JPC


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## john dory (17 Jan 2021)

Extra cleaning always eradicated it,for me.
Just suck it out.


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## Oldguy (17 Jan 2021)

Aquatic Plant Science said:


> doesn't possess catalase, the enzyme that breaks down peroxide into water and oxygen.





jaypeecee said:


> This paper would suggest otherwise, I think


Looking at similar papers on bga, the stuff contains bio-Mn compounds that will react with H2O2 but not that readily unless pre-treated with NaCl solution. However strong H2O2 is a strong oxidising agent and will damage cells. I remember using 35% in the lab. Skin burns if you got a drop on you. Just had to be careful. In those days gloves were only worn in the winter to keep your hands warm when waiting for the bus.


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## sparkyweasel (17 Jan 2021)

And _Anabaena _has not one, but two catalases.
Paper


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## jaypeecee (18 Jan 2021)

sparkyweasel said:


> And _Anabaena _has not one, but two catalases.
> Paper


Good find, @sparkyweasel.

JPC


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## thesorcerous (18 Jan 2021)

Nick potts said:


> Thanks Rob.
> 
> I am trying to stay away from chemicals as much as I can, but may be an option if I can't shift it and before I tear the tank down.
> 
> I have added an airstone that runs at night and have been doing large 80-90% changes every other day, but this stuff seems to grow back in a matter of hours.


Yes, very understandable, and my initial intention too. I guess I have an earlier breaking point than you! It was a very similar situation, I'd remove it all by hand and within 24 hours it would be like I hadn't touched it. I didn't take the decision lightly, but I'm glad I did it.

I'd tried all the usual things first like increasing oxygen, increasing flow, increasing water changes, and I'd also tried a product from ADA which I have forgotten the name of which didn't touch it.

Rob


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## Nick potts (18 Jan 2021)

thesorcerous said:


> Yes, very understandable, and my initial intention too. I guess I have an earlier breaking point than you! It was a very similar situation, I'd remove it all by hand and within 24 hours it would be like I hadn't touched it. I didn't take the decision lightly, but I'm glad I did it.
> 
> I'd tried all the usual things first like increasing oxygen, increasing flow, increasing water changes, and I'd also tried a product from ADA which I have forgotten the name of which didn't touch it.
> 
> Rob


Thanks Rob.

It has not been as severe the last few days with aggressive aeration in the evening, but as there is no stock in the tank, if it continues chemicals may be a good option, to at least knock it back.


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## jaypeecee (18 Jan 2021)

Nick potts said:


> ...if it continues chemicals may be a good option, to at least knock it back.



Hi @Nick potts 

I think it's important to deal with this thing we have about 'chemicals'. What exactly do we mean by 'chemicals'? If I was to start talking about dihydrogen monoxide, would you use it in your tank? The fact is that you already are - it's water! And, what about humic acids, which are released by Catappa leaves, for example? And so on...and so on. Some 'chemicals' may have been produced in a laboratory but many are safe 'chemicals'. I mentioned _Blue Exit _whose active ingredient is salicylic acid. But, originally, this compound was extracted from the Willow tree. So, just because something comes out of a plastic bottle doesn't mean it's to be avoided. After all, we use fertilizers - dry or liquid - in our tanks without giving them a second thought.

Just my two penn'orth.

JPC


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## Nick potts (18 Jan 2021)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Nick potts
> 
> I think it's important to deal with this thing we have about 'chemicals'. What exactly do we mean by 'chemicals'? If I was to start talking about dihydrogen monoxide, would you use it in your tank? The fact is that you already are - it's water! And, what about humic acids, which are released by Catappa leaves, for example? And so on...and so on. Some 'chemicals' may have been produced in a laboratory but many are safe 'chemicals'. I mentioned _Blue Exit _whose active ingredient is salicylic acid. But, originally, this compound was extracted from the Willow tree. So, just because something comes out of a plastic bottle doesn't mean it's to be avoided. After all, we use fertilizers - dry or liquid - in our tanks without giving them a second thought.
> 
> ...


Good points JPC.

I am not against chemical use, far from it, as you say we add ferts etc to our water daily.

But saying that some chemicals are better than others in aquariums, I know that a lot of the cyanobacteria killing products contain antibacterial agents etc and not something to be dosed without thinking over first


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## jaypeecee (18 Jan 2021)

Nick potts said:


> I know that a lot of the cyanobacteria killing products contain antibacterial agents etc and not something to be dosed without thinking over first


Hi @Nick potts 

You are correct in saying that some of the cyanobacteria treatments contain dodgy chemicals. Some contain antibiotics whose use in the UK is illegal without a vet's prescription. Yet, they seem to get on the UK market.  Salicylic acid is classed as a bactericide, according to Wikipedia. For more information, take a look at :









						Salicylic acid - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




JPC


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