# Newbie proposed tank setup



## Cat (16 Mar 2014)

Hi all,

I have a tank that is 45cm x 45cm x 2m (405 litres).

I have home made LED lighting consisting of 8 x 1600 lumen cool white LEDs with 5600K Colour Temperature. These were made to replace 4 x 39W Arcadia Plant Pro T5 FPP39T5 tubes (1900 lumens). I have significantly increased algae growth which indicates that I get more light, but I do not have any PAR or PUR measurements.

I am about to overhaul my entire system and turn my tank into a planted tank. I was going to aim to turn over the water 10 times per hour with the following system. Here is the diagram that I made:




 

For the pump I was going to use a Jebao DC 12000. In the manual the pressure/flow graph shows that I can get 4000 litres per hour with a maximum system pressure drop of 3.25m head height or 318mbar.

The water butt is connected via a tap in order to save the water for my garden when I do a water change.

The fluidized bed filter I have chosen is the TMC V2Bio 1000 Fluidised Sand Bed Filter. I do plan on having fish in the tank too, but I appreciate that this particular fluidized bed filter is overrated for my tank size. I want a high flow rate through the fluidized bed, so I thought that having a larger one than strictly necessary would be a good idea. I also plan to have a bypass pipe with a tap so that most of the 4000 litres per hour does not actually flow through the fluidized bed.

For my CO2 diffuser I thought that I would try an Inline Atomizer CO2 Diffuser 16mm/22mm (http://www.co2supermarket.co.uk/co2-inline-diffuser.html). I am considering putting two in the system, one in line with each heater.

For my heaters I have selected the Hydor ETH External Thermal Aquarium Heater 300W 16mm Hose (tank volume of 180l to 250l for 10 degree C temperature difference). I will need two of these for my tank volume so I thought that one in line with each spray bar would be best. I thought that I would use the same one for the mains water inlet to heat the water when doing a water change.

I can't find any detailed information about off the shelf spray bar flow rates and pressure drops. I was thinking of having two 1m long 25mm PVC tubes with holes drilled in them. For the flow rate, the spray bars would have approx 18mbar pressure drop from end to end. I thought that I would start with 30 x 2mm holes in each spray bar and then refine it for even pressure/flow distribution. I was going to do as much of the piping in 25mm (or bigger) PVC tubing, so it made sense to try to make the spray bar out of that too.

The mains water filter is an improvised 3 stage canister system. I have a sediment filter, coconut shell activated carbon filter and a chloramine filter.

This is my first venture into planted aquariums after keeping Discus fish for years. Any advice, comments or general feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Cat


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## Edvet (17 Mar 2014)

Why the fluidized bed filter? With a lot of plants you dont need a lot of filter capacity. Simple canister filters with some easy materials are enough. The coconut/chloramine filter is only neccesary if you have a lot of chlorine in your tapwater, where are you from?
You should be doing reasonably large waterchanges anyway, asuming you are going the EI way.


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## ian_m (17 Mar 2014)

I agree with fluidized bed, bit of an overkill that in the end may not be optimal for planted tank, especially as a lot of media for these are designed to remove phosphates &/or nitrates (in marine tanks), rather than act as massive "biological stores". As Edvert says, single large canister filter (or even better two medium sized) filled with media, rather than too much foam/filter floss will be much better for a planted tank and easier to maintain.

I notice that JBL have a new monster 1900litre/hour filter now, which is nearly half way there to planted tank recommended x10 rule of tank volume. Don't have to have x10 filter flow, could always go with 2000litre/hour & a 2000litre/hour power head to get water moving, of course.

Also you will have issues balancing the two outputs, the water will take the easiest path and tend to all go via just one output. Again single large filter and/or two mediums filters will be a better choice.

Also your pump is 85Watts -> 85/1000 * 24 * 365 * 0.15 = £112/year to run. Be careful with the noise of these things, very difficult to keep these things quiet.

Two JBL pumps e1501 @ 20W each -> 2x40/1000 * 24 * 365 * 0.15 = £52/year to run.

Just something to think about.

If you do want to use this pump, you could always make your own canister filter.
Use one of these,
http://www.ampulla.co.uk/Shop-For-P...Litre-Mini-Barrel-and-Blue-Lid/p-170-156-763/
Add a water in and out bulkheads in lid, stack full of pan scrubbers, ceramic noodles, rock etc, maybe even sheet or course foam and away you go, canister filter for not very much.


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## Cat (17 Mar 2014)

Edvet said:


> The coconut/chloramine filter is only neccesary if you have a lot of chlorine in your tapwater, where are you from?


 I live in Cambridge. Discus keepers tend to worry about Water Companies doing an occasional "big clean" and flushing the system with chlorine. I don't know if there's any truth in it, but it saves on buying dechlorinator - especially for the colossal water changes required for these fish.



Edvet said:


> Why the fluidized bed filter?


 I have used fluidized bed filters for years with Discus fish and I am familiar with them. If I need a biological filter I would always prefer a fluidized bed.



ian_m said:


> a lot of media for these are designed to remove phosphates &/or nitrates


 I was just hoping to break down the ammonia. I am planning to put some Pygmy puffer fish and they are extremely sensitive to ammonia. I did not realise that a fluidized bed would remove phosphates too. Would a conventional biological filter not remove phosphates too? I was under the impression that both filter types harbored the same bacteria.



ian_m said:


> Also you will have issues balancing the two outputs, the water will take the easiest path and tend to all go via just one output.


 I was going to keep the pipe work as short as possible from the pump to the heaters and then have two runs that go from under the tank to the spray bars. If I keep the pipe to the spray bars symmetrical (number of elbows etc.) and length matched (probably around 2m each) I should get a fairly balanced flow.



ian_m said:


> Don't have to have x10 filter flow, could always go with 2000litre/hour & a 2000litre/hour power head to get water moving


 I wanted everything external for this setup.

*Thanks for taking the time to reply. It is greatly appreciated.*


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## ian_m (17 Mar 2014)

Cat said:


> I did not realise that a fluidized bed would remove phosphates too


Its the media (Rowaphos etc) that removes the phosphate &/or nitrate as opposed to the bacteria. In a planted tank with EI fertilisers you are adding potassium nitrate and potassium phosphate which would be a shame to waste them being taken out by the filter.

If filled with "biological sand" may be ok, but need to confirm is big enough as my JBLe1501 has 12litre capacity for 180litres, so your 400litres maybe looking at 24litres or more media volume. I don't know of any other plant keepers who use fluidized bed, but nothing wrong I suspect, just keep us informed, you never know you may be onto something.


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## Cat (17 Mar 2014)

I have always used sand in my fluidized bed filters, I had no idea people used anything other than sand in them!

The TMC V2Bio 1000 Fluidised Sand Bed Filter is advertised as being suitable for a 1000 litre tank, which means it will hopefully handle any bio-load that I can throw at it.

I don't really know how much biological filtration I should have. Puffer fish are messy eaters and we need to breed snails for them too - when I kept them before I was amazed at how much snails poo. Do plants create a lot of ammonia as part of their life cycle?

I can see that it would be pointless to add a filter that removes nutrients from the plants, but I need to protect the fish. I don't know how to strike a good balance or if it will always be a trade off?


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## Dan Wiggett (18 Mar 2014)

Cat said:


> I have always used sand in my fluidized bed filters, I had no idea people used anything other than sand in them!
> 
> The TMC V2Bio 1000 Fluidised Sand Bed Filter is advertised as being suitable for a 1000 litre tank, which means it will hopefully handle any bio-load that I can throw at it.
> 
> ...


They are usually sold with sand, at least the TMC ones are. But most of the marine guys will put some pearls in there instead to reduce No3 + Po4. A skimmer is used to then skim out the bacteria that will use the No3 + Po4.

Obviously in a planted tank that's not what you want to happen


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## Edvet (18 Mar 2014)

Plants will use up the ammonia, no worries about that.


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## Cat (18 Mar 2014)

Splinun said:


> They are usually sold with sand, at least the TMC ones are. But most of the marine guys will put some pearls in there instead to reduce No3 + Po4.


I haven't a clue about marine setups which explains why I hadn't heard of that before. Thanks.




Edvet said:


> Plants will use up the ammonia, no worries about that.


That's good to know. Do you think I can get away without having any biological filtration at all and just have regular water changes alongside plant debris removal?


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## James O (18 Mar 2014)

Cat said:


> I haven't a clue about marine setups which explains why I hadn't heard of that before. Thanks.
> 
> That's good to know. Do you think I can get away without having any biological filtration at all and just have regular water changes alongside plant debris removal?


Probably not.  2x eheim classic 600 will give you 2000lph flow and bundles of filtration.  You can also add an inline heater to each filter.  Then add a koralia and you're set


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## Edvet (18 Mar 2014)

Yup, if you have a large plant mass you wont need a big biological filtration. Usualy a canister filter with some small amount of media is enough. Waterchanges weekly, clean your tank and use ferts according to light and CO2 if used.


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## Edvet (18 Mar 2014)

But in high tech setups you''ll need flow, hence the circulation pumps/spraybars etc etc.\
My (large) tank has a sump from the time it housed discus, when i switched to plants i emptied all the filtermaterial out of it, now only some foam.


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## Cat (19 Mar 2014)

James O said:


> 2x eheim classic 600 will give you 2000lph flow and bundles of filtration. You can also add an inline heater to each filter. Then add a koralia and you're set


That is a quite expensive option. I like the fluidized bed as opposed to foam filled filters as it is maintenance free. The watts/flow for the external filters is roughly equivalent. I may explore reducing the flow rate of the Jebao DC 12000 and using a koralia later on, but I would initially like to do as much as possible outside the tank.



Edvet said:


> But in high tech setups you''ll need flow, hence the circulation pumps/spraybars etc etc.


I was aiming for enough flow through spray bars for a high tech setup. By the way, I looked at your tank and it is mental (in a very good way). It's huge!


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## Edvet (19 Mar 2014)

Thx


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## James O (19 Mar 2014)

Cat said:


> That is a quite expensive option. I like the fluidized bed as opposed to foam filled filters as it is maintenance free



So where do all the solids go?

A single classic 600 is rated for a........you guessed it 600l tank with 1000lph.  Then add a koralia. Flow isn't the goal.  Distribution is the word and 10x turnover doesn't truly matter


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## ian_m (19 Mar 2014)

James O said:


> So where do all the solids go?


Yes you will need something more than just a fluidised bed filter as it is really for biological (or chemical, nitrate/phosphate) only.

See here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filter_(aquarium)#Fluidized_bed_filter

As James says you will need some form of mechanical filtration somewhere to remove the debris and particles.


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## ceg4048 (19 Mar 2014)

The OP is encouraged to forgo bed filter for something more practical such as a wet/dry system if space is available. This is useful at night because the dry section exchanges air and encourages high oxygen content in the water column at night when Oxygen demand is high while the supply is usually low.

Sample scheme is shown here:


 

Sample systems are shown here:
Specialist version.


 

Easy version Eheim 2227


 

Cheers,


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## dw1305 (19 Mar 2014)

Hi all,
One problem with fluidized bed filters with sand is that if the power goes off they can easily become de-oxygenated. If I went with a fluidized bed, I'd definitely use plastic floating cell media, these are much more resilient against power outages, mainly because the media floats and remains oxygenated a lot longer. Having said that I don't see any advantage for a fluidized bed filter over a wet and dry. Wet and dry trickle filters combine being extremely resilient with having a huge biological filtration potential. 


James O said:


> So where do all the solids go?


 You siphon them out. You want ammonia and oxygen in your filter, not bits of decaying plant, faeces etc.

cheers Darrel


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## ourmanflint (19 Mar 2014)

After reading lots of set ups on here and elsewhere, I am dimayed that more people with larger aquariums don't use sumps if they have the space. Canister filters are far inferior IMO, you can achieve a lot with a custom sump, and they are just as relevant in a planted tank as a marine one.
As above the wet/dry option looks pretty good and is easily achieved, plus all heating, gas exchange, dosing etc can be done in a sump as well. 
I'm also surprised that no one seems to have experimented with reverse lighting setups using a sump and lots of fast growing plants. This way you can have a constant supply of CO2 when needed for good growth from the respiring plants below. 
Cheers


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## ian_m (19 Mar 2014)

Major issue with sumps and planted tanks and CO2 is severe CO2 loss. Though quite a few people run very nice planted tanks with sumps, but end up with 5Kg Fire Extinguishers and quite massive injection rates to cope with CO2 losses in the sumps and associated pipework.



ourmanflint said:


> Canister filters are far inferior


Obviously canister filters are far superior in this case, which is why most planted tank people use them.


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## dw1305 (20 Mar 2014)

Hi all,


ian_m said:


> Major issue with sumps and planted tanks and CO2 is severe CO2 loss


 This is because of the large gas exchange surface, and a problem when you add CO2, but an advantage when you don't. I think Tom got around it by sealing his sump <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/co2-ph-level-in-planted-tank.26559/page-2>. 


ourmanflint said:


> Canister filters are far inferior IMO, you can achieve a lot with a custom sump, and they are just as relevant in a planted tank as a marine one..... I'm also surprised that no one seems to have experimented with reverse lighting setups using a sump and lots of fast growing plants. This way you can have a constant supply of CO2 when needed for good growth from the respiring plants below.


 I've never thought of it like that, but that would actually be an advantage. I've strongly recommended reversed lighting sumps in the past for keepers of fish with a high oxygen requirement and I still think that a wet and dry combined with reversed lighting in a planted sump is the "gold standard" for filtration. 





> ....Aquatic plants will be net contributors of oxygenation when they are photosynthesising, but when they are not they will be part of the bio-load. You could take advantage of 24 hour photosynthesis by using a sump refugium with reversed lighting regimes (dark in the tank, light in the refugium).


 From <http://plecoplanet.com/?page_id=829>.

cheers Darrel


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## Cat (24 Mar 2014)

dw1305 said:


> This is because of the large gas exchange surface, and a problem when you add CO2, but an advantage when you don't. I think Tom got around it by sealing his sump



Yes we tried a closed sump in the past for other reasons but had continuous problems with pressure and then when reading stuff about planted tanks and seeing people not recommending them because of CO2 waste we decided to get rid of our old sump, plus this gave me room for another tank for breeding snails for the puffer fish we intend on keeping. I'd never thought of a reverse lighting system I think it may be something I could do in the future when I have more experience with planted tanks. Plus I've already got the fluidized bed and limited funds!


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