# Struggling with Shrimp/Planted tank advise



## tayloss

Hi all,

I have been setting up a planted tank with the view of having some Blue Bolt shrimps, but am not sure about the water quality or content/balance of shrimp needs vs plant needs.

The tank is driven by a nano CO2 system and the drop checker shows green, the parameters are as follows:-

Ammonia = 0
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate = 0 
PH = 6.0-6.1
TDS - 180-190
KH = 0 
GH = 8

Over on the other thread, I was advise to seek the expertise here for the correct water parameters when dealing with the shrimp side. To give a quick overview, I am using RO water with Bee Shrimp GH+ along with Dennerle Scapers Soil to help adjust the PH to below 7, however, I've been advise to add some KH as the tank requires some for general usage, but this will deplete the buffering ability?

I seemed to have opened up a can of worms as you can see from my thread here:  https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/new-planted-tank-struggling-a-little.50760/page-4#post-500121

As I'm not worried about fish, I have adjusted the all-in-one fertiliser to add some extra KNO3 (due to not meeting the recommended 20ppm), but everything I do adds to the TDS of the water and very quickly puts it outside of the recommend parameters for the shrimp. Taken just now, its around 236 (Monday water change). On a water change, I aim for around a TDS of 200 but am not sure if I am doing this right or i should do it at a lower TDS level to take into account my organic waste/ferts?

Is anyone able to point me in the right direction as I feel stuck at the moment.

Thanks in advance..

Chris


----------



## Lindy

Hi, I'm afraid I wouldn't recommend keeping shadow bees such as blue bolts in a high tech tank. For these shrimp you really want kh0-1 and the fluctuations you are going to get with ferts and co2 are not going to be enjoyed by the shrimp. If you chose a hardier shrimp you would be fine I'm sure. 


Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


----------



## tayloss

Lindy said:


> Hi, I'm afraid I wouldn't recommend keeping shadow bees such as blue bolts in a high tech tank. For these shrimp you really want kh0-1 and the fluctuations you are going to get with ferts and co2 are not going to be enjoyed by the shrimp. If you chose a hardier shrimp you would be fine I'm sure.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk



Thanks Lindy, I thought that would be the case.. 

What hardy shrimp would you recommend and should I make any changes to the WP or keep it the same?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Lindy

Neocaridina such as cherry shrimp should be fine. They are much hardier and are happy in a higher tds/gh. Caridina such as Crystal red shrimp might do ok but you'd really just need to give it a go. You can see quite quickly if they aren't happy as they will just stop doing anything. Unless shrimp are moulting they are always busy. 
However if you reduced your light, with some floating plants for instance, you don't need co2 or high doses of ferts.


Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


----------



## Lindy

Sorry for the terrible photo but this is my wee dennerle scapers tank. I water change once every couple of months, clean the filter every few months, no co2 and rarely put any ferts in. I had just butchered the rotala before this pic so it looks awful! 




Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


----------



## tayloss

Still looks good tho  I don't know what to do to be honest as feel stuck between algae and shrimps... 

I thought you could have shrimp with a high tech tank, but am guessing from your comments, more hardy RCS variety?

Or I may keep it just as a planted tank?


----------



## DavidW

Hi, I don't see any issue with using CO2 and firts in a Taiwan Bee shrimp tank if your sensible about it. I've just setup a 30 litre nano planted tanks with Taiwan Bee Shrimp. I use liquid CO2 daily and Dennerle ferts once a week, shrimp are fine and breeding and the plants are growing well. I tend to keep my TDS at 160 with my KH at 0 and GH at 3. I've got Blue Bolt, Red Bolt, Green Hulk, Pinto Wine, red and black bee shrimp.



 

more images of my tanks are here - https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/new-taiwan-bee-tank.50709/


----------



## DavidW

Do you ave rocks in your shrimp tank? and how old is your RO filter?

Thanks


----------



## tayloss

DavidW said:


> Do you ave rocks in your shrimp tank? and how old is your RO filter?
> 
> Thanks


Hi David,

Here is a photo from the tank taken just a moment ago:



I do have some rocks, not many as its mainly wood, but I don't think the photo does it justice as it looks better in the flesh!

My RO filter is less than a year old and is used to make my salt mix for my marine tank, so is in regular use.. What do you use to remineralise your RO water and will slowly reduce my TDS to match.. I do daily all-in-one ferts, so will measure the TDS levels to ensure they are in specifications. Does your substrate buffer as well then?

Thanks,
Chris


----------



## DavidW

Hi Chris the rocks could be part of the issue. Most rocks will leach minerals into the water which effects tds and kh. I had a big issue with my first shrimp tank, the tds in the water kept increasing by 15 everyday. I ended up setting up a new tank with just wood and after a week the water parameter are stable the kh and tds dont change. I would also recommend changing the prefilters  in your ro filter. And the membrane if the water that comes out ever goes over 10 tds. I use salty shrimp gh+ and get my ro water up to 160 tds then add weekly ferts that are shrimp friendly. I'm using cal aqua black earth it has does buffer the water but isn't specifically for shrimp. I also use alder cones and Capps leaves.


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke

Most stones from LFS are inert like dragon stone. You need to avoid seiryu stone which will raise KH. I have three bits in my 100ltr tank and 2kh tapwater but my tank tends to sit at around 4KH depending on how much water I change, usually 50% weekly. I also use Almond leaves and Oak leaves for my tannins. it's the time of year to start gathering @tayloss Get yourself a big bag of freshly dropped Oak leaves preferably away from the road and dry them out, they'll last all year and shrimp love grazing on them.

A planted tank and shrimp aren't mutually exclusive, you can have both just hi tech tanks require a fair bit of work regarding changing water and over dosing salts to be on the safe side for the plants where certain shrimp prefer a calmer, stable environment. If you lower lighting and pick plant species carefully I think you could manage to get the best of both worlds. As Lindy says red cherries and Amano shrimp seem to be the most hardy.


----------



## tayloss

Think I’ll go for some red cherries and see how they do!! Should have stayed low tech and it would have been slightly simpler operation.. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke

tayloss said:


> Should have stayed low tech and it would have been slightly simpler operation..



Amen to that brother


----------



## tayloss

Ok, if you see my other thread, I may remove the CO2 from the tank and remove or reduce the fertiliser to make it Shrimp safe?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DavidW

tayloss said:


> remove or reduce the fertiliser to make it Shrimp safe


If you switch to a weekly fert like Denerle Scapers green with NPK Booster at recommended dosage the shrimp will be fine. Also if your going to have cherry shrimp whey wont have any issues with CO2 as long as your drop indicator is green. I've been using those ferts in a tank with Blue Dream shrimp and another thank with Taiwan Bee shrimp with no ill side effects and both tanks have breeding shrimp. I also use CO2 injection in the tank with Blue Dream shrimp.


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke

There's nothing wrong with injecting co2 into shrimp tanks, shrimp live in water naturally containing co2 just as long as you avoid sudden changes and extremes of levels. You just need to keep in mind that at the start with your new substrate which leaches out acids to buffer the ph down and injecting co2 which again is acidic and lowers the ph while running soft water with no KH ph can drop quite quickly. KH is there to absorb some of the acidity. As you've already realised if your lighting isn't too bright you don't need to run your co2 as high some people do in high light tanks but adding some will be beneficial to plants. My last shrimp tank I just had it ticking away at 1 bubble a second with low lighting.

As your KH is lower your PH readings are less accurate because even the slightest bit of acidity will cause a major drop in PH. In your other post Clive suggested having "some" KH just to give your PH readings some relevance (see the chart) People aim for 30ppm co2 which is good for plants and saafe for fish. If you want some KH just add a little of your tapwater to the RO and find out what the correct ratio is to get that 1KH which the shrimp specialists suggest and try out some Red Cherries for now which are hardier and will forgive you if you get it wrong within reason. Once you think you have it sorted and confident move on to some fancy shrimp, a lot will live together quite happily and not cross breed (see chart)


----------



## tayloss

So should I keep the water at 0KH and continue with the water parameters I have? 

David, what do you have as your parameters and just wonder then if I should adjust the ferts as you mentioned? 

Will my algae come back tho without the daily ferts?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Konsa

Hi
The water parameters matter if U stick to Cardina shrimps only.The Neocardina and Amanos will tolerate wide range of parameters  and CO2.About the algae it depends on the strength of your light.The lower the light the bigger margin for mistakes.U dont have to be bang on the 30ppm CO2 to grow plants high tech.With lower light and less ferts U  may need only 15-20ppm.Use floaters to dim it if U have to .They will balance the tank too as absorb a lot of amonia from the organic waste production.If U are using RO water mix it so the TDS is on the lower range for the chosen shrimp check how much it will up with the ferts U use.
Regards Konsa


----------



## tayloss

Konsa said:


> Hi
> The water parameters matter if U stick to Cardina shrimps only.The Neocardina and Amanos will tolerate wide range of parameters  and CO2.About the algae it depends on the strength of your light.Use floaters to dim it if U have to .They will balance the tank too as absorb a lot of amonia from the organic waste production.
> Regards Konsa



Thanks Konsa, I have added some frogbit to the tank this week and it’s doing really well! So the tank will be dimmer in no time!

Looks like I’m going for the Neo’s.. thanks for all you help 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DavidW

tayloss said:


> So should I keep the water at 0KH and continue with the water parameters I have?



All depends on what shrimp you want to keep. If you want to keep CRS or Taiwan bee shrimp I would get your tds down to below 180 and your gh to between 2-4. If your keeping cherry type shrimp your parameters will be fine. I started out with CRS which wasn't successful I always had issues with water parameters, then tried some Cull Taiwan Bee shrimp, which was more successful but I ended up doing water changes every other day. Then I read the stones in my tank will alter water parameters, I really like the scape in that tank so I setup a new tank specifically for the Taiwan Bee shrimp, I didn't put any rocks in this one and the new tank cycled in a week and after 2 weeks the parameters were spot on and rock solid. I also changed the pre filter, carcon filter and membrane in my RO filter and got a food safe bpa free water contain. RO water will suck any minerals it can out of whatever it is in and if you container isn't food safe it can leach unwanted stuff into the water. I did a test and put pure RO water 0 tds in my old container left it over night and by morning the tds was 20!

Since making those changes all my bee shrimp are happy and have started breeding in the new tank 



tayloss said:


> David, what do you have as your parameters



Taiwan Bee tank, Liquid CO2 and weekly ferts - 
Ammonia = 0
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate = 0 
PH = 5.4
TDS - 160
KH = 0 
GH = 4

Blue Dream Shrimp tanks, CO2 injection and weekly ferts - 
Ammonia = 0
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate = 0 
PH = 6.5
TDS - 205
KH = 5 
GH = 8



tayloss said:


> Will my algae come back tho without the daily ferts?



I have a little algae growth on the glass of my tank and a slight greening on my rocks in the Blue Dream shrimp tank, that's about it.


----------



## tayloss

I am about to do a water change tomorrow, so will aim to get the tank down to around a TDS of 150 and see where the TDS is after each day of adding the fertiliser.

The floating plants are certainly doing well and multiplying, so they seem to be happy with the current status. Guess the algae is loving the light, so hopefully bringing the light down will help with that too. 

Once settled, I'll check the parameters and post them for your thought.


----------



## Konsa

Hi
Sounds like a plan.Im sure U will wing it.
Don't get too obsessed with the parameters and testing.
Unlike marine tanks in planted tanks is just a hasstle U dont really need.
Regards Konsa


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke

How much water do you usually change @tayloss ?


----------



## tayloss

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> How much water do you usually change @tayloss ?



10lts normally.. 50% 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke

What was the KH of your tapwater?


----------



## tayloss

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> What was the KH of your tapwater?



KH = 9
GH = 19


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke

If I was you I would mix 1ltr of dechlorinated tapwater with 9 ltrs of RO water and use that for water changes. That will get your water change water at around 1dkh and 2dgh and test the TDS of the water you have cut before putting it in the tank to see what that is. You know if you add your fertiliser from your other post (with the KNO3 added you bought) 



> 3.22 ppm Nitrate x7 =22.54ppm Weekly
> 0.4 ppm Phosphate x7 =2.8ppm Weekly
> 2.53 ppm Potassium x7 =17.71ppm Weekly
> 0.2 ppm Magnesium x7 =1.4ppm Weekly



The total of all of the above will raise the TDS by around 45ppm by the end of the week and will not affect your KH just raise your GH slightly because of the magnesium. Obviously some of those ferts will get used up which will lower the TDS. Ideally if you are aiming for around 150-200 TDS for the shrimp the cut water you are going to use wants to have a TDS of around 100 if lower even better.

Then you know that in total with ferts and water changes you are adding no more than 150ppm to the tank weekly. The water is perfect for shrimp and you are dosing EI levels of fertilser, plants and shrimp are happy. As you are dosing max ferts gradually over the space of a few months you could start dosing slightly less ferts and see how the plants react especially the floating ones until you find a happy place where TDS isn't rising in the tank and plants aren't suffering and make that your ritual. If plants aren't getting enough ferts and you want to stick with your fert regime simply removing a load of floaters and trimming out plants will help get back on side as the ferts you are putting in has less plant mass to feed. Checking TDS in the tank at the end of the week and logging in it will help to keep an eye on which direction the TDS is going over time and you can adjust to that.


----------



## tayloss

Do you mean use the TDS levels the RO/Tap water produces and don’t use the RO agent?

Certainly worth trying 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke

tayloss said:


> Do you mean use the TDS levels the RO/Tap water produces and don’t use the RO agent?
> 
> Certainly worth trying
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah keep it nice and simple. As discussed RO water is too raw on its own and your tapwater is high for the shrimp you intend keeping so just dilute your tapwater with the RO.

Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


----------



## Daveslaney

Yes if you do this to make 2dgh 1dkh every d is 17.9 ppm 1 ppm is 1 point on your tds meter. So your input water kh plus gh is roughly 54 tds then what ever else is in your tap water adding to the TDS.
Your ferts for the week are roughly 60ppm so these with zero consumption by your plants will add 60 TDS weekly. The rest is organics waste etc in your water.
So i would think you can have 2dgh 1dkh imput water and ferts for your plants and still maintain a sub 200 tds or there abouts and grow plants and keep whatever shrimp you like?


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke

Daveslaney said:


> Yes if you do this to make 2dgh 1dkh every d is 17.9 ppm 1 ppm is 1 point on your tds meter. So your input water kh plus gh is roughly 54 tds then what ever else is in your tap water adding to the TDS.
> Your ferts for the week are roughly 60ppm so these with zero consumption by your plants will add 60 TDS weekly. The rest is organics waste etc in your water.
> So i would think you can have 2dgh 1dkh imput water and ferts for your plants and still maintain a sub 200 tds or there abouts and grow plants and keep whatever shrimp you like?


Should be 34tds water other than whatever else is in the tapwater. Dgh is combined so it will be both KH and permanent hardness together so 2dgh x 17.9

Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


----------



## Daveslaney

Yes you are correct .
2 x 17.9 =35.8..


----------



## tayloss

Should I do a bigger change to bring the TDS down as it’s currently 236 or perform a couple of water changes?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke

tayloss said:


> Should I do a bigger change to bring the TDS down as it’s currently 236 or perform a couple of water changes?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


While there's no fish or shrimp in there just change 10 ltrs with pure RO and that should half your current tds. 

Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


----------



## tayloss

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> While there's no fish or shrimp in there just change 10 ltrs with pure RO and that should half your current tds.
> 
> Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk



Okey... sounds good.. will let you know the results.. am i ok to weekly water changes after that? Or another one after the RO only change?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tayloss

Alright, as I already had 15l of RO ready for a saltmix, I redirected 10l to the planted tank and performed a water change 

TDS is now 130, but will test again before the fertilisers are added to verify the reading...

Should I do another change this week or wait until next Sunday/Monday for the next dose?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke

tayloss said:


> Alright, as I already had 15l of RO ready for a saltmix, I redirected 10l to the planted tank and performed a water change
> 
> TDS is now 130, but will test again before the fertilisers are added to verify the reading...
> 
> Should I do another change this week or wait until next Sunday/Monday for the next dose?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What do you mean by dose?

Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


----------



## tayloss

Sorry, dose of water as in next water change...  

The TDS has risen this morning to 158? Added Fertilizer and didn’t see an increase? 

Could the rock be adding to the TDS as well?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke

tayloss said:


> Could the rock be adding to the TDS as well?



Yeah maybe a little. Don't get too bogged down with the numbers though mate. The TDS meter will probably have a margin of error and the differences are tiny, as long as generally speaking you keep the same parameters it will be fine. The problem with small tanks is they are very unstable, any slight change makes a big difference. Now you TDS is where you want it Just go ahead and make your WC water up as discussed and go for 50% weekly. You can of course do more and should it will just keep the tank overall cleaner and as the water you are using is similar to what's in the tank there shouldn't be any extreme changes to parameters. When/if you get your fancy shrimp just do the water changes slowly I would say.


----------



## tayloss

Thanks mate for being so patient  

This was more complex than I thought being a planted shrimp tank, especially after keeping a marine tank!

I’ve made up some new fertiliser mix and KNO3 this evening, so will start to add it from tomorrow.. I’ll probably do another change to bring the TDS a little more, but with the mix as suggested..

I’ll keep you posted on progress, as seemed to have stalled on the algae removal, but could be resolved by the reduction of light thanks to the floating plants..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke

You can't beat floating plants for many reason IMO. They make fish and shrimp more comfortable, it's built into their genes to avoid open water where they can get eaten by predators from above so they are not as shy, they create shaded spots in the tank, they get their co2 from the atmosphere so not robbing it from the submerged plants, the roots provide safe places and food for young fry and they grow quite rapidly consuming large amounts of waste combined with unlimited co2 to pump oxygen down into the column through their roots plus the roots provide a great place for beneficial bacteria to live. On top of that they will be the first to let you know if there's a shortage of fertiliser in the tank.

What's not to like  Every tank should have some.


----------



## tayloss

So, a little update on progress.. 

I’ve removed the CO2 system from the tank on Monday and have continued to do the 2.5ml fertiliser daily but not add any additional KNO3 since Sunday and everything appears to be clearing up nicely..

Still early days, but I don’t think it was the right time to run CO2 in a tank destined for Shrimp. 

I added some blue velvet shrimps who have settled in nicely and are now very active, so I may or not have overdosed the tank...

Certainly won’t be making that mistake again and will allow the tank to level where it seems happiest!

Thanks,
Chris 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kadoxu

You can still inject a low amount of CO2. My Fluval Chi has Red Cherry Shrimp and I inject 1 bubble every 5 seconds. Not much, but better than nothing. 

Anyway, glad to see you in the freshwater side of things! I'm also on Ultimate Reef following the crazy guy doing the huge tank in his garage!


----------



## tayloss

kadoxu said:


> You can still inject a low amount of CO2. My Fluval Chi has Red Cherry Shrimp and I inject 1 bubble every 5 seconds. Not much, but better than nothing.
> 
> Anyway, glad to see you in the freshwater side of things! I'm also on Ultimate Reef following the crazy guy doing the huge tank in his garage!


Yes, I know who you are and have seen your messages in other posts  I'm adding some CRS into the tank tomorrow, so am looking forward to it.. for now I'm going to leave the CO2 out as the tank is seemingly doing ok!


----------



## Chubbs

I have red Fire Sakura Shrimp in a high tech, heavily planted, community tank. They’re doing fine. I really don’t think CO2 effects them. I just think plants and hiding places are the key to success.


And a pre filter sponge to stop them from being sucked in


----------



## sciencefiction

I think plenty of advice is given already. I just wanted to mention that the best water for those shrimp is stable water. I wouldn't be concentrating on particular GH, PH and KH reading as long as there is some of each and the TDS is within the soft water range. . You just need the TDS to be stable. So if you're re-mineralizing the RO water with some tap water, then the TDS of the mixture should read the same each time, regardless of the individual PH, GH and KH parameters. For example if you aim at 160ppm TDS, then the mixture for water changes should read about the same each time.

The problem with a KH of zero is that keeping a tank with that low KH can make swings in nitrification and when you think the  individual water parameters are to blame, ferts, co2, etc..., it is actually basic water quality issue, and how well ammonia and nitrite are being dealt with by the system. In nature some fish/shrimp do live in zero KH. In fish tanks that can be detrimental due to the fluctuations that causes. You do need some KH reading in your water mixture. Apart from that, you need a stable TDS, none of the rest of parameters matter.  During nitrification the KH is continuously depleted. We do water changes to replenish it.  If you're starting with a zero, you'll have really hard time managing the water quality. I know very experienced fish keepers have kept such water but it is really an extreme situation, and perhaps daily water changes are needed to keep a tank like that stable.


----------



## tayloss

Just wanted to give you all an update on the tank and the progress I've made over the last few weeks!

I've added a mix of Cherry Reds/Blue Velvets shrimps who have settled in nicely and also produced the first batch of shrimplets 

On the algae front, since removing the CO2, I started to dose Seachem Excel and daily ferts and now my tank is algae free and is now being a pleasure to look at! I've also adjusted the lighting period so that its on between 7am - 10am and 3:30pm - 8:30pm.

Anyway, I always say a picture speaks a thousand words, so here is a video I made of the shrimp in doing their thing.. Thanks for all your help and support and maybe I can get to grips with CO2 in a future tanks!



Thanks,
Chris


----------

