# Nitrate Levels



## Chris jowett (14 Dec 2018)

Morning, 

I am having a hard time with my nitrate levels at the moment they roughly sitting at 40ppm.

Bit of back ground. 120litres tank (dirt tank), been running for around 4-5 months now and live stock is around 20 red cherry shrimp and 4 Otto Cats.

My tank is heavily planted and is low tech (no co2 injection) my cycling took around 4-5 weeks, I was seeing the soil leech a lot of ammonia up to 3ppm at one point and this helped my complete my cycle. Over last 3-5 weeks however I cannot get me nitrate down, it was easy when I didn't have shrimp in my tank but because I am fairly new at keeping shrimp and all the research tells me to do around 10-20% water changes a week, however I dont think this is helping with the nitrate levels. I use to change 40% - 50% per week as per recommendation when dosing aquascaper complete Fert but I am told this isn't good for RCS

I am seeing good growth in the plants and floating plants and livestock seem to be doing okay, the RCS are molting, however I do believe I found a shrimp dead this morning for the first time.

Rest of my reading, ammonia is 0, nitrites are 0. My TDS pen broke but it was sitting at 220, new one arrives tomorrow.

 I guess I am trying to under why my nitrate levels at 40ppm, ideally I need this to be lower but I haven't a clue what is causing it and I did wonder if I should start to increase my water changes but just worried about the RCS

any thoughts would be great

thanks
Chris


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## NOWIS (14 Dec 2018)

Hi your soil is still releasing ammonia which is being converted into nitrite then nitrate at the same rate it is released. Your soil will continue to release ammonia for some time which is fine because the filter/bacteria is doing its job. Try water changes 30-50% or twice a week for a while.


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## Chris jowett (14 Dec 2018)

yeah I did think soil would still be leeching it but its converted that fast I never see ammonia in my tank. I test like every day (over the top), I was guna increase the water changes, just nervous with the shrimp, guess I will have to find out what happens


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## NOWIS (14 Dec 2018)

Once your tank has cycled you will never get an ammonia reading unless u do a large rescape, a sudden loss of fish or spill the fish food etc something to make your ammonia level spike that the level of bacteria you have now can’t keep up with. 
Your tap water may have high nitrates in which case water changes won’t help.


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## NOWIS (14 Dec 2018)

Most people with hi tech planted tanks do 50% water changes weekly, with shrimp. Just do x2 smaller WC a week for about 3 weeks if your worried about 1 large WC


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## Chris jowett (14 Dec 2018)

okay thanks for your help


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## dw1305 (14 Dec 2018)

Hi all,





Chris jowett said:


> I am seeing good growth in the plants and floating plants and livestock seem to be doing okay


That is the really important bit. 

It doesn't sound very scientific, but you get a much better idea of water quality from looking at the fish and plants, rather than relying on test kits. It is actually scientists do with lakes and rivers, they use <"invertebrate assemblages, bio-assays and BOD"> to quantify water quality.

I adapted it for the <"Duckweed Index">, where you basically just keep your floating plants healthy and they do every else for you. 





Chris jowett said:


> my nitrate levels at the moment they roughly sitting at 40ppm.





Simon Hellmich said:


> Your tap water may have high nitrates in which case water changes won’t help.


You <"don't need to worry about the nitrate (NO3) level">. Nitrate isn't toxic until you reach really high levels, certainly in the hundreds of ppms. As @Simon Hellmich says it is quite likely your tap water contains appreciable amounts of NO3, most water in the S. and E. of the UK does.   





Chris jowett said:


> My tank is heavily planted and is low tech (no co2 injection) my cycling took around 4-5 weeks, I was seeing the soil leech a lot of ammonia up to 3ppm at one point and this helped my complete my cycle.


Planted tanks aren't ,<"ever cycled the way that a fish only tank would be">, in fact I would go further than that and say <"no tank is ever cycled in the way"> that has been <"traditionally thought of">.





Chris jowett said:


> I guess I am trying to under why my nitrate levels at 40ppm, ideally I need this to be lower but I haven't a clue what is causing it and I did wonder if I should start to increase my water changes but just worried about the RCS


I'd just change some more water.

cheers Darrel


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## Chris jowett (14 Dec 2018)

thanks Darrel  appercaite your response


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## Keith GH (14 Dec 2018)

I fully agree I would do big water changes at least twice a week.

Are you running any carbon in your filter if so remove it.

I would do a full water test on your water supply just in case there is a concern there as well.

A good photo of your tank would be appreciated.

Keith


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## dw1305 (15 Dec 2018)

Hi all, 





Keith GH said:


> I would do a full water test on your water supply just in case there is a concern there as well.


We are lucky in the UK, because we can get a water report from the water company.  It will be <"Yorkshire Water"> for Hull.

I just choose a random central Hull post-code ("Hu1 3JQ") and the given value for NO3 was 38ppm, the conductivity was 685 microS and the water was described as "very hard" with 121 ppm calcium (Ca).

The conductivity and hardness values tell you the water is fully saturated with CaCO3, the high NO3 value means that the source is either a shallow chalk aquifer or it is a mixture of surface and borehole water.

They would be pretty standard water values for urban conurbations in the S. and E. of the UK.

cheers Darrel


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## Edvet (15 Dec 2018)

dw1305 said:


> water was described as "very hard" with 121 ppm calcium


and you still make tea from this?


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## Chris jowett (15 Dec 2018)

There is no carbon in my filter.

I am going to do a water change this morning and see how it plays out, I have seen the shrimp not very active at the moment so I was wondering if the levels could be related.


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## Barbara Turner (15 Dec 2018)

It always takes a while for a new tank to settle down. I noticed at the start you mentioned red crystal shrimps, I don't keep them but believe they need soft water, if your water is very hard your going to have problems.. 
The only way to get arround this is to start adding RO water,  even if your filtering your own it's still hard work. 

(Cherry shrimps are happy in hard water)


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## Oldguy (15 Dec 2018)

Edvet said:


> and you still make tea from this


Ee by gum lad, there's Yorkshire Tea. Rit grand it is.  [But I prefer Assam it suits our tap water in the Forest of Dean ]


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## AverageWhiteBloke (15 Dec 2018)

+1 on what @Barbara Turner saying. Crystal shrimp are very sensitive IMO, never had any luck with them myself  and I'm from a very softwater area. I think you need to keep them under 150ppm TDS. One shrimp dropping doesn't really signify an issue. I have a colony of RCS and one goes now and again, that's life, at some point one will die. I wouldn't overly fuss over the Nitrate. If you want to get the levels down for whatever reason and there's nitrates coming out the tap get some floaters and maybe a house plant sitting on the rim with the roots in like a pothos plant. They'll make short work of it. Also get a fermenting bin out in the garden an hour or so after it's been raining and mix this with your tapwater when doing changes. The Crystals will appreciate that. I hear that if the water is too hard for them they struggle to molt properly but I'm no shrimp expert. I gave up on them in the end it was getting an expensive hobby.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (15 Dec 2018)

BTW AS complete also contains Nitrates so you could ease up on the dosing also with soil that leaches ammonia. Maybe switch to just a trace mix either using dry salts or Tropica premium which is nitrate free.


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## Chris jowett (16 Dec 2018)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> BTW AS complete also contains Nitrates so you could ease up on the dosing also with soil that leaches ammonia. Maybe switch to just a trace mix either using dry salts or Tropica premium which is nitrate free.



Intresting I didn't know that about AS complete. That maybe it then cos I dose 3ml a day. Not heard of dry salts will have to look into that.

It's red cherry shrimp I have not crystal, sorry for the confusion.

You gave up on fish keeping or just shrimp?


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## Oldguy (16 Dec 2018)

Chris jowett said:


> red cherry shrimp


These little guys are hardy. I would not think nitrates at 40ppm would affect them.  Go the dry salt way, cheaper and you know what you have. See thread on Estimated Index ( EI). If concerned with tap water cut it with rain water it comes for free, assuming that you can collect it. I think Average White Bloke has a colour chart showing doses and solution concentrations for EI. Perhaps pm him. As said above, shrimps die but they also breed.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (16 Dec 2018)

Chris jowett said:


> Intresting I didn't know that about AS complete. That maybe it then cos I dose 3ml a day. Not heard of dry salts will have to look into that.



Generally speaking mate if a fertiliser is called complete or all-in-one it contains Macros Nitrate Phosphate Potassium and Micros Trace elements. The aquascaper stuff is complete in so far as it contains all so you are adding nitrate with your dosing as well as in your tapwater and the nitrate being added from the breakdown of the ammonia is the soil. Dry salts are just all the chemical elements named above in standalone powders that you mix yourself with water or just add as they are to the tank. If you have plenty of nitrates you could just add the trace elements without the nitrates. If you don't fancy messing with salts Tropica Premium is just the trace elements without the NPK and available in most Maidenhead Aquatics if there's a branch near you but the nitrates aren't that much of a worry and probably why your plants are doing so well as plants love it. Like mentioned you would have to dose it at much much more than you have and at 40ppm (which won't be that accurate) you're sitting quite comfortably as planted tanks go.

Yeah, wondered where the Crystals came in ??  No I just gave up on CRS. Bought about 25 of them which were a pretty penny as they're difficult to get hold of round my way. One by one they just disappeared until there was none left. If I was to have a crack at them again I think I would attempt it in a species only setup.

I keep RCS, my understanding is Crystals prefer below 150 TDS where Red cherries prefer above 150 TDS. I think it's something to do with the moulting, Crystals can't moult because their shells harden in harder water and red cherries have issues with their shells if the water isn't hard enough or something like that. Yours are fine in that water so I reckon it was just a random death which can happen.


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## Chris jowett (16 Dec 2018)

Thanks for that information I will defiantly be looking at the salts this evening, guna test my tap water too and see where my Base line is.

I only keep red cherry shrimp in there own tank, it's a 20 gallon, the idea was to breed the little guys however I  am having zero luck here, had them around 2 months now good mixture of males and females but nothing happening, so just going to leave it and see what happens, seeing plenty of molting happening.

I have cichlids for allot of years, easier just rocks and fish. Plants and shrimp defo challenging for me at moment.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (16 Dec 2018)

Shrimp seem to go through stages when they breed like mad then slow down for a while. Mine seems to slow down in winter although I can't work out how that works considering they are artificially lit and heated. 

Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


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## Chris jowett (17 Dec 2018)

yeah that is strange you would think it wouldn't matter and they hardly know when winter is unless tank temp drops. I see lots of females with saddles but no such look at the moment. waiting game I guess.


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## jaypeecee (24 Dec 2018)

It can be tricky getting reliable figures for nitrate toxicity but I err on the side of caution and keep nitrate to less than 20ppm. The following article makes for interesting reading and then links to some scientific studies:

http://www.fishtanksandponds.co.uk/aquarium-science/nitrate.html

Although the following is only an abstract from a scientific paper, it clearly indicates that a mere 10mg/l nitrate concentration can adversely affect freshwater invertebrates, fishes and amphibians:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0045653504009993

JPC


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## Edvet (25 Dec 2018)

There is plenty scientific literature where high doses of NO2 are proven to be safe. Where high nitrate stems from ammonia-> nitrite-> nitrate the toxicity comes from the previous products.


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## Simon Cole (25 Dec 2018)

I thought of a pothos too, and water changes, if not you could change substrate or try some biohome large filter media.


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## jaypeecee (25 Dec 2018)

Edvet said:


> There is plenty scientific literature where high doses of NO2 are proven to be safe. Where high nitrate stems from ammonia-> nitrite-> nitrate the toxicity comes from the previous products.



Hi Edvet,

Thanks for your reply.

I think you meant to say NO3, not NO2 in your first sentence. But, more to the point, you say that there is plenty of scientific literature concluding that high doses of nitrate are proven to be safe. Having done a lot of searches on this topic, I have been unsuccessful finding any scientific literature in support of your statement. Would you be kind enough to let me have some internet links that I must have overlooked?

Thanks.

JPC


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## Edvet (25 Dec 2018)

I will provide them later when i am back at work.


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## jaypeecee (27 Dec 2018)

Hi Edvet...I look forward to getting the links.


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## Edvet (27 Dec 2018)

For instance : https://www.waterboards.ca.gov/water_issues/programs/tmdl/records/region_2/2008/ref2426.pdf
Also some members have accidentaly overdosed KNO3 to extreme levels without any problems.
Don't forget most nitrate related articles cover the ammonia-nitrite-nitrate cycle, toxicity is very much higher in ammonia ( pH dependant) and nitrite, so in polluted systems levels need to be far lower.


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## jaypeecee (27 Dec 2018)

Edvet said:


> For instance : https://www.waterboards.ca.gov/water_issues/programs/tmdl/records/region_2/2008/ref2426.pdf
> Also some members have accidentaly overdosed KNO3 to extreme levels without any problems.
> Don't forget most nitrate related articles cover the ammonia-nitrite-nitrate cycle, toxicity is very much higher in ammonia ( pH dependant) and nitrite, so in polluted systems levels need to be far lower.



Hi Edvet,

Excellent scientific paper. Thanks very much.

JPC


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## dw1305 (27 Dec 2018)

Hi all,





jaypeecee said:


> But, more to the point, you say that there is plenty of scientific literature concluding that high doses of nitrate are proven to be safe.


There are some links and references in <"What are your nitrate ...">.

This links to a paper on nitrate toxicity in the "Zebra Fish" (_Danio rerio_), where the nitrate was added as NO3-, rather than being the end result of the nitrification of ammonia. 

Zebrafish are used as a <"model organism"> in the study of the genetic control of limb development etc., because the genes that control fin development in fish are the same genes that regulate limb formation in mammals. 

Culturing Zebra fish is a big deal scientifically because their "neural crest cells" have many of the same characteristics of stem cells in mammals, but you have the advantages of quicker generation times, fewer ethical issues, less regulation etc. 





dw1305 said:


> The Zebra(fish) Danio (_Danio rerio_) paper use NaNO2 and NaNO3 as its source of NO2-/NO3- ions. If you convert the 606 mg/L (ppm) NaNO3 to ppm NO3- you get 442 ppm NO3- (RMM 85 and 62/85 ~ 73% NO3), so we are still talking pretty elevated levels of NO3-.


cheers Darrel


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## Simon Cole (28 Dec 2018)

Another great bit of information Edvet. Looking at the three species of fish potentially adversely affected _(Oncorhynchus mykiss, Oncorhynchus tshawytscha, Salmo clarki) _it is interesting to note that the toxicology expressed in table 3 (J.A. Camargo et al. / Chemosphere 58 (2005) pp. 1261) is confined to eggs and fry. The _Oncorhynchus tshawytscha _fingerlings had a LC-50 96hr value of 1310 mg/l NO3-N. Expressed as an NO3 value - that would be a whopping 5799.1 ppm. For a salmonid species evolved in temperate regions that doesn't sound too bad. Considering tropical fish, we can assume evolution towards a more nitrate tolerate biome. Lastly, if you look at the results you can see that sodium nitrate was validated as a method of testing toxicity. I have not read the 1976 study by Colt and Tchobanoglous that was reviewed by these authors, which these results were based upon, but I suspect the osmotic impact of sodium on eggs and fry was a highly contributory influence. These are species that spawn upstream because they are not evolved to do so in saline environments. I have yet to find a valid example implying that nitrate dosing (at EI levels) could have toxicological effects.


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## Edvet (28 Dec 2018)

I think the proof is in the pudding as it is being used by an ample amount of people without negative side effects.


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