# Fish selection and stocking for 260l



## murph (13 May 2010)

Hi,

it's now getting to the stage that in seriously thinking about which fish to select for my tank. So far in thinking:

silvertip tetras - 40
otos - 5
zebra loaches - 4
corys - 5
shrimp - 20

other half is also trying hard for some Thai glassfish! Seem a bit delicate to me.


I'm not wanting a heavily stocked tank and aren't really sure of these are the right sort of numbers?


Any advice, alternatives and suggestions?


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## Garuf (13 May 2010)

Looks fine to me, I personally would add more otos and a couple more loaches but other than that it seems sensible. I understand thai glassfish need cool and hard water so they're probably not a wise choice.


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## murph (13 May 2010)

A few more Otis and loaches I'd be happy with!

Will these loaches uproot carpeting plants? I intend leaving a bit of substrate as
play sand for the corys and loaches.


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## Garuf (13 May 2010)

I have no personal experience with carpeting plants and loaches or cories but I think you might have to add them once everything is sturdily grown in. I suppose it depends on the individual loach type.


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## dawidmNS (13 May 2010)

I would add more corys as they look much better in bigger groups. I had 4 and they didnt look like I espect, so I add 8 more and they looked great together


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## ceg4048 (13 May 2010)

murph said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> it's now getting to the stage that in seriously thinking about which fish to select for my tank. So far in thinking:
> 
> ...


Yes, I would completely forget about fish until you've figured out how to grow your plants and how to manage CO2. You have all the time in the world to add fish. I would suggest to focus on building the infrastructure of your tank, which is plant health first. Fish are a severe handicap when learning the rudiments of a high tech tank.

Cheers,


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## murph (13 May 2010)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> I would completely forget about fish until you've figured out how to grow your plants and how to manage CO2. You have all the time in the world to add fish. I would suggest to focus on building the infrastructure of your tank, which is plant health first. Fish are a severe handicap when learning the rudiments of a high tech tank.
> 
> Cheers,




Ouch, way to curb a guys enthusiasm!

Joking aside I know what you mean and appreciate the input.

 I was intending to run my tank fully planted for a month or so and then, ensuring everything was looking alright and going to plan, start adding fish gradually. Is this the prefered method?

The long term health of the tank is my main priority along with it's asthetic value!


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## ceg4048 (14 May 2010)

Well, try to look at it as that your enthusiasm will build. This happens a lot, where folks think I'm raining on their parade because, naturally, we envision the final product of lovely, healthy plants, arranged in a beautiful scape adorned with happy healthy fish. There's nothing wrong with this at all, in fact it would be abnormal if such enthusiasm were missing. When I first learned to ride a bicycle I always imagined myself as an experienced rider doing experienced riding things and travelling to experienced riding places. But then reality set in as I started and the only thing I was soon focused on was how not to fall off and sever every tendon in my body. 

I just think people put too much emphasis on the wrong things in the beginning, which takes attention away from the right things, ultimately making whatever disappointments that do occur along the way that much more acute. There are a lot of things to juggle. If you don't worry about things like aquascape, or fish or fancy lighting or whatever and just think about the how and why of healthy  plants, you'll find that the energy redirected along this path generates a better chance of actually achieving that personal vision.

Plants do better with massive levels of CO2, water changes, dosing and minimal lighting in the beginning. They have been grown as terrestrial plants in the nursery and therefore have a terrestrial physiology. They have access to atmospheric CO2, as much as 300ppm or more. Then they are flooded and start to drown. They may only see 3ppm or 10ppm. The physiological changes are immense and sometimes extreme measures are required to get them going.  If you do everything right and it takes a month to stabilize the tank then sure, fine, but that hardly ever happens.

Without fish to worry about you can crank the CO2 as much as you want. Fish in the tank means you have to feed them causing more dirt to accumulate in the tank. Dirt is algae's friend because it de-stabilizes the tank system due to poor bacterial populations. You then have to split your loyalty and worry about fish health first. Having no fish liberates you from all of those responsibilities and allows you to concentrate on healthy plants.

It's somehow become politically correct to pay lip service to fish, and that's because there are a lot of people coming from fish only backgrounds. I'm not a politician, I'm only interested in understanding the truth. The truth is that the healthier your plants are then the healthier your fish will be. Healthy plants will absorb high levels of ammonia for example. Ammonia is responsible for more fish deaths in tanks than any other causal factor. Unhealthy plants dump ammonia back into the tank. Healthy plants add a much higher oxygen content to the water than any filter or air pump could ever dream of. Higher oxygen uptake by fish allow them to deal more easily with stress and even to deal with with pathogens because their internal systems become more robust. It is therefore a much more rational approach to give top priority to stabilizing the tank system and to maximize plant health, which may require a few months of extreme CO2 and disturbance. After that you can start to see how high you can get the light and what changes to flow/distribution/CO2 are required. You can then try to determine how much you can lower the CO2 to then accommodate the fish. It's just a much smarter path to travel I reckon.

Cheers,


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## chris1004 (14 May 2010)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> I just think people put too much emphasis on the wrong things in the beginning, which takes attention away from the right things, ultimately making whatever disappointments that do occur along the way that much more acute. There are a lot of things to juggle. If you don't worry about things like aquascape, or fish or fancy lighting or whatever and just think about the how and why of healthy  plants, you'll find that the energy redirected along this path generates a better chance of actually achieving that personal vision.
> Cheers,




Hi Clive/ Murph

Wise words indeed. 

However I do believe that it largely depends on your situation. What I mean is have you bought a fish tank to keep fish but want it to look nice or is it all about the plants/aquascape and the fish are just there to decorate it?

When you buy fish from a local aquatic store they are usually juveniles which in some cases may take several years to reach their prime. 

Of course Clive is right, in an ideal world it'd be best to start without fish. But IMO I wouldn't take my eye off the fact that the fish will take longer to reach perfection than the plants will (in many cases several years) although the plants are a much more complicated affair, once you get them growing you'll be chucking them away by the bucket load.

If at all possible get the fish you ultimately want and keep them in a seperate tank (it doesn't need to be a complicated affair) where you can grow them on to maturity and ready for the addition to their planted home when the time is right. Its also a good idea to quarentine any new fish so a second tank (or more) is very handy indeed.

Regards, Chris.


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## murph (14 May 2010)

Clive,

Your right and With the advice I been given from yourself and others on this forum that will be the road I will be going down. I haven't came from a fish only background, I've came to this from nothing at all except a friend who's kept fish for a number of years and is too now starting to plan a Planted tank.

I Mainly got interested in this from a photography point of view.

I am thinking about what fish I will end up keeping in the tank as this is the ultimate end result, a healthy tank with healthy inhabitants both plant and fish. I'll just try not to rush it

I have no concept of how long plants/water chemistry take to become established and settled so your right in that I should experiment with getting the plants right before waking up in the morning to a bunch of floating fish!

You help and advice is much appreciated and I will no doubt be coming back for more from yourself!

Is your background biology or chemistry or something as you seem to have an unrivaled understanding of this type of thing?

And I had no idea aquatic plants were not grown in a tank before sale!


Chris,

I'm much more interested in the Aquascaping side of things and what fish will compliment that. As I said before Its the photography aspect that first brought me here.

I currently don't have another tank but now that you mention it it is something that I'll look into as its a damn good idea.


As I said before guys I'm learning on the job here so I dont really have alot of the assumed knowledge that goes along with keeping fish but in a way it means that I can explore and research all aspects of the hobby before making any commitments to a particular way forward.



I'll try not to think to much about fish until the tank with plants is established.



thanks


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## chris1004 (15 May 2010)

Hi Murph / all,

To be honest the fish that your looking at are all pretty easy to keep / Hardy (not sure about the shrimps) all you have to do is look after your water quality and feed them. As far as maintenance goes a Bi-weekly water change and washing the filter out periodically will suffice. You can easily get by with a tank with no lighting, a bare bottom tank for ease of cleaning or just a shallow covering of sand or gravel on the bottom, some bogwood/rocks, a heater and an internal filter. Generally its not meant to be a display tank so a cheap second hand one will do and it won't matter how many scratches there are on the facia either. Think of it as a service tank to the main one. 

I've set many such tanks up in the past and I know you'll be able to get a 4ft affair up and running for under Â£40 if your not too fussy, that includes filters, heaters and hardscape! 

Ebay is a good place to start also Friday free adds if you get it in your area. I've even got friends who've picked up perfectly usable tanks from free-cycle adds which cost nothing.

Regards, Chris.


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## Ed Seeley (15 May 2010)

murph said:
			
		

> silvertip tetras - 40
> otos - 5
> zebra loaches - 4
> corys - 5
> ...



Silvertip tetras are real favourites of mine and I love the subtlety of their colour, but if you are after a tight shoaling effect then you will be disappointed in them.  The males tend to stake out small territories in the plants and court the females from there.  The females and less dominant males will shoal but not really tightly like some other spp.  I'd still keep them as I think they're brilliant and tough fish but just wanted you to be aware of their habits!


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## murph (15 May 2010)

Ed I'm dissapionted!! I love these wee guys and I too really like the subtley of them. I have a friend who has about 70 in a corner tank and they scholed very well.


Is there a similar fish that schools better?


I might get them anyway as the look very good!


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## Ed Seeley (15 May 2010)

They will shoal fine at first, but once they mature the males stake out breeding areas.  I think this is a good thing as they then spar and spread their fins at each other and look great - stick with them!


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## Garuf (15 May 2010)

I've been reading about on cories with the intention of maybe getting some and the advice seems to be if you have cories have cories if you have loaches have loaches not both. I don't see how that'd be a problem but that's what I was told when I pm'd a mod at planet catfish.


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## Ben M (15 May 2010)

hi, i have Corydoras aeneus and copei with kuhli loaches, and have absolutely no problems at all. they are fine together.


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## murph (15 May 2010)

Could it be that they'd be concerns that they would inhabit the same level in the water and compete for food?

I've know a couple of tanks where both have lived seemingly happy so I think I'll give it a go, I'm thinking of getting pigmy corys in a group of about 12 or so.


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## chris1004 (15 May 2010)

Hi Murph / all

A lot depends on the species of loach that you keep, IMO. If its the Botia Striatas that you go for then you'll be fine mixing them with any Corys. As I mentioned previously in other posts to you some loaches can get a bit stroppy when they get mature thats where the problem lies never with the Corys themselves whatever species you choose.

Regards, Chris.


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## murph (16 May 2010)

Cheers chris.

Think I'll go for the loaches you reccommended to play nice with the corries! What's the minimum numbers you'd suggest there kept in? A half dozen?

If I get all the fish mentioned will that be all the levels in the water catered for? I.e top, mid and bottom?


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## chris1004 (17 May 2010)

Hi Murph / all

Half a dozen Striatas will be fine together with some corries. 

As for having the top middle and botton layers catered for its never really that simple cause no-one tells the fish where they are supposed to live. I have some corries which spend a lot of time swimming midwater and some tetras which hardly ever rise more than a couple of inches off the bottom.

But in general terms then yes I think you have the bases covered with the possible exception of the very top of the water column.

Regards, Chris.


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## magpie (18 May 2010)

So... can I jump on this thread and re-iterate the question about *small* shoaling fish?  I'm assuming the cardinals and the neons (green neons in TGM look very nice) will shoal well. What about some of the super-small fish being recommended for nanos - I'm not planning  nano, quite the opposite, but I thought some of the microrasboras looked immensely good... 

thoughts on small shoaling fish for once a planted tank is stable and well established? 

ta 

Ff


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## dawidmNS (18 May 2010)

murph said:
			
		

> Could it be that they'd be concerns that they would inhabit the same level in the water and compete for food?
> 
> I've know a couple of tanks where both have lived seemingly happy so I think I'll give it a go, I'm thinking of getting pigmy corys in a group of about 12 or so.




I've got 10 of them in my tank and Im not recommend them. They are good if you want to breed fish as they won't eat spawn. They dont look attractive and they used to swim (very often) with rummy noses as a shaoling fish. Instead of them there are lots of very nice corys In the past I had panda and peppered corys, I recommend both.

Regards
Dawid


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