# GRADED GRAVELS, INCREASING SIZES - CONTRASTING



## Andrew Butler (5 Aug 2019)

I'm trying to find contrasting gravels that will go right from a small size upto some larger pieces that I can finally add some pebbles to and it all look in harmony. The gravels I'd like to have some interest to them also instead of just being plain river washed pebbles. I'd also like to avoid too much white or clear in the mix and keep it quite 'riverbed'.

I have some of the Dennerle Plantahunter natural river gravel in both sizes (4-8 / 8-12mm) but just not finding the smaller gravel to fill the voids left by the round river gravel.
https://dennerle.com/en/products/aq...ural-gravel/plantahunter-natural-gravel-river

ADA used to do a range but now only do the Small, I think they discontinued it before Lauris done the 'Escape' aquarium and they must of had some over in Ireland.

After some discussion in this thread it seems it may not be the best idea to rest my gravel on a soil substrate and find a better way to do this which would mean a smaller, contrasting gravel for starters; the bigger stuff I can find at garden centres or out of  bag from the builders, I'm sure.

Credit to Lauris for the hardscape in 'ESCAPE' - I really love the overall look of.


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## Sarpijk (5 Aug 2019)

Aquael has different size and colour  substrates.


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## tam (5 Aug 2019)

Some of the online aggregate suppliers do sample size bags, might be have a bigger range than your local garden centre.


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## Andrew Butler (5 Aug 2019)

Sarpijk said:


> Aquael has different size and colour substrates


Thanks - do you know of any UK stockists?



tam said:


> Some of the online aggregate suppliers do sample size bags, might be have a bigger range than your local garden centre.


I think it's quite hard to find what I'm looking for in the UK; I've looked before and with smaller sizes the grading isn't available from my experience, with inert ones at least.


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## Sarpijk (5 Aug 2019)

Have a look on Amazon 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=aquael+substrate&ref=nb_sb_noss


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## Andrew Butler (5 Aug 2019)

Sarpijk said:


> Have a look on Amazon


Are you in the UK? that search came up with nothing my end.
I had searched aquael gravel but only the one grade in natural for the UK and in small bags.


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## Sarpijk (5 Aug 2019)

No I am located in Greece, but I searched on Amazon.co.uk. 


 I am sure there is a distributor in the UK.

Try https://aquael.co.uk/


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## Andrew Butler (5 Aug 2019)

Sarpijk said:


> I am sure there is a distributor in the UK


I think if you are to search a different countries Amazon it sometimes shows up different options depending if they will post to you or not.
I have phoned the distributor and there are retailers but it's not a product any of them really sell and not near to me, I will track some down though to have a look at.
Thanks @Sarpijk


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## Andrew Butler (9 Aug 2019)

@Sarpijk  thanks for the suggestion but that gravel turned out to be very whiter than one I already have when it arrived. 

I went to a local river and had a little look in the shallows and took a sample with me which looked just nice. I started to wash it and you could see the limestone had even reached the fine stuff; the limestone had only ever been added as big cobbles to try and stop erosion. It has been suggested to me to try dissolving the limestone in something, any ideas/opinions here?

Still open to ideas otherwise please


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## dw1305 (9 Aug 2019)

Hi all,





Andrew Butler said:


> I went to a local river and had a little look in the shallows and took a sample with me which looked just nice


I'd try that. If it is rounded grains? it will be fairly hard and insoluble.





Andrew Butler said:


> It has been suggested to me to try dissolving the limestone in something, any ideas/opinions here?


If you have hard tank water, and don't use CO2, having limestone gravel doesn't actually make the water any harder. 

The reason is that the water is already fully saturated with Ca++ & HCO3- ions, and that solubility limit is set by atmospheric CO2 levels. 

If you add CO2 you get a drop in pH, and limestone will start to go into solution, but it will precipitate back out as soon as the CO2 is off.   

cheers Darrel


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## Andrew Butler (9 Aug 2019)

Thanks @dw1305 


dw1305 said:


> If it is rounded grains? it will be fairly hard and insoluble


It looks a bit more grain like which I assume isn't good news?
Is it worth trying to dissolve it; if so what would you recommend?
I might end up using CO2 so need to work with that.


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## dw1305 (9 Aug 2019)

Hi all, 





Andrew Butler said:


> It looks a bit more grain like which I assume isn't good news?


That sounds like it is a softer rock. If water action had produced an approximately spherical rock then you can be pretty sure it is hard and insoluble, this works really well with beach or stream cobbles, but you can apply it to any smaller rocks (including sand and gravel).

If it is also grain coloured?, and because of where you are geographically, it could be be a soft "Lias" or Jurassic limestone (the same geological strata that lies to the west of Bath). 





Andrew Butler said:


> Is it worth trying to dissolve it; if so what would you recommend?


I wouldn't try, and even if you were successful I'm not sure you will end up with much left, but hydrochloric acid (HCl) would be your best bet.

cheers Darrel


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## Andrew Butler (9 Aug 2019)

So here's some pictures, it's been rinsed but not thoroughly bleached etc.
Also some links to videos on my google photos where I have tested the different categories with some pickling vinegar (all we had in a larger quantity):
-suspected limestone
-other 'more natural' looking gravels
-Dennerle plantahunter 

The Dennerle one is my ideal but unable to find any smaller grade that matches - this is my ultimate goal but so far unsuccessful. 
https://dennerle.com/en/products/aq...ural-gravel/plantahunter-natural-gravel-river



dw1305 said:


> this works really well with beach or stream cobbles


Although it's a river it's not far from a stream sized at this point but the addition on the limestone cobbles I think has caused a lot of this.


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## dw1305 (9 Aug 2019)

Hi all, 
The Dennerle gravel looks to have a mix of rock, including granites and limestone. Your local stream gravel looks quite promising, I might go with that, but just separate out some of the lighter colour fragments. 

You might find that if you give it a good shake (in a bucket?) that the limestone mainly ends up on top.

cheers Darrel


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## Andrew Butler (9 Aug 2019)

dw1305 said:


> The Dennerle gravel looks to have a mix of rock, including granites and limestone


any suggestion on sources of this in smaller sizes?!?


dw1305 said:


> our local stream gravel looks quite promising, I might go with that, but just separate out some of the lighter colour fragments


It's quite a task getting it to the position I had and still not the colours of the Dennerle I really like, could mean a compromise I know.
Thanks though Darrel


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## tam (9 Aug 2019)

This is a greyer gravel: https://hugokamishi.com/shop/quartz-light/ might be too light though


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## Andrew Butler (9 Aug 2019)

I've had a look over the harvested river gravel and it's coming up much more orange in tone than I'd like.

Thanks @tam I remember seeing this before and it being quite white/clear but on account I've not found the right product for a couple of years now I'm thinking making my own up is the only way.
I have now ordered some Zolux gravels in basalt black and natural granite to see if those types blend in or even look right. I can always visit the Hugo Kamishi option but I just remember it being very full of white/clear which isn't what I'm after.
Here's a picture from the Dennerle website of the natural river gravel which I have in 4-8 & 8-12mm and really love the look of if I hadn't mentioned before!
https://dennerle.com/en/products/aq...ural-gravel/plantahunter-natural-gravel-river



 

Quite why I can't seem to find the same product graded from 2-20mm for aquatics I find surprising. I know different grades of certain stone hold different values in different sizes but it still doesn't make sense, to me at least!


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## Andrew Butler (19 Aug 2019)

OK,
To update this thread, after a bit of hunting around I realise some kind of compromise is needed.
The gravel I got from a local river is showing more and more lime and ironstone in it so I've ruled that out.
A lot of the gravels out there contain a lot of clear/glass which I really don't like so am keen to avoid those.
What I'm now looking for is a look which follows a colour palette, right from a 1.5mm gravel to a 50mm pebble then even a boulder if I can.
I've accepted there will probably be more white in the mix than I would like but as I am less fond of the reds and browns I'd rather go that way.
I followed the suggestion from @Sarpijk and sourced myself some of the Aquael natural gravel multicoloured in the smallest size- a little white still, especially when wet but if I can either blend it with something which I did have a little go at, match it or even find the sizes to match the Dennerle which was the idea from the word go then this is still something I would like to do so if you know of any other products you don't have to buy in a bulk bag then I'm all ears.
I do know the Dennerle source the Plantahunter natural river gravel in Belgium and it's 'Quartz with a small amount of Lime' - no idea which quarry though.


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## zozo (19 Aug 2019)

If its from Belgium it's 95% from a quarry situated and diggin at the river Meuse..  Sourcing garden centres etc you might find the very same gravel dennerle sells to decorate your home driving lane to the garage etc. 

Google 
https://www.google.com/search?q=maasgrind 
and select images and you'll find a load of simmular looking products to Dennerle River Gravel.

I live rather close to the Meuse and Belgium and its gravel pits, 20 miles. But stil, i have to admit.. Next to pictures on the internet 9 out of 10 times look more promesing than real time product. It aint easy to find a uniform colored batch of pebbles in small quantities. Most out there contains to much white silica pebbles. Patience and prais the lord for Aufwuchs..


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## Harry H (19 Aug 2019)

Hi Andrew,

I saw these at a local garden centre. I took a photo as I was looking for gravel to use on sand. They had two different sizes.


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## Andrew Butler (19 Aug 2019)

zozo said:


> Most out there contains to much white silica pebbles


This is the biggest problem I have.
Thanks for the pointers I will try having a Google and see what i can come up with from your suggestion.

I do still wonder what ADA used to provide and also why they stopped like used in the Escape aquarium.



Harry H said:


> saw these at a local garden centre. I took a photo as I was looking for gravel to use on sand. They had two different sizes.


Thanks Harry; I can find some a little bigger I could pick through but smaller gravels is a struggle and larger stones too. A lot of what I've seen has the orange/speckled type colour hues I don't like too.

I've found some Icelandic boulders which might work but it still misses the gap out.

Am I the only one that looks for a stone that goes from a sand/gravel right upto the larger stones with the same type and maybe that's why ADA stopped the variety?


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## Hufsa (5 Feb 2020)

Andrew Butler said:


> Am I the only one that looks for a stone that goes from a sand/gravel right upto the larger stones with the same type and maybe that's why ADA stopped the variety?



I guess I should voice my interest in this thread as well. I have been lurking in the background but share your frustration. I love pebbles and round stones and have been hunting for something that matches my beige sand, to no avail. I also have the Dennerle river pebbles, but was disappointed to see that they are quite cold in color and dont match as well as I had hoped with the beige. Im currently going through the bag picking out the brownest pebbles, but only about 2% are close enough.

This still leaves out the smaller sizes as well.

I have been looking at the gravel at https://www.flisbyab.se/produkter-ute/dekorsten-grus/sma-sackar
But these gravels have been reported to have a lot of limestone in them and has raised the PH for several aquarists.
Maybe it can be mitigated by picking out the white stones?
I ordered a bag of the biggest size a while back, but was disappointed. The pebbles are not very round, and they are a bright orange color.

Local gardening centers sell norwegian stone types in their pebble selections, which are very mottled and patterned stone that I find distracting in looks. Also only fairly big cobbles.

I quite like the look of "Scottish" Pebbles that seem to be sold from various retailers in the UK, they come in a variety of sizes and have nice uniform colors. Seems impossible to get them to Norway without paying some serious money for shipping a bunch of rocks though, and my common sense feels like having stones imported at great expense just to match a bit of sand is kind of ridiculous and a waste of money.
These might be too warm in color for your taste Andrew?


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## Andrew Butler (5 Feb 2020)

Hufsa said:


> I also have the Dennerle river pebbles, but was disappointed to see that they are quite cold in color and dont match as well as I had hoped with the beige. Im currently going through the bag picking out the brownest pebbles, but only about 2% are close enough.


It's a shame you're not closer as I don't really like those and prefer the grey tones!


Hufsa said:


> I quite like the look of "Scottish" Pebbles that seem to be sold from various retailers in the UK, they come in a variety of sizes and have nice uniform colors.


You might be surprised with the bigger, and even smaller ones there is also that mottling look from what I've seen.


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## tam (5 Feb 2020)

Hufsa said:


> I quite like the look of "Scottish" Pebbles that seem to be sold from various retailers in the UK, they come in a variety of sizes and have nice uniform colors. Seems impossible to get them to Norway without paying some serious money for shipping a bunch of rocks though, and my common sense feels like having stones imported at great expense just to match a bit of sand is kind of ridiculous and a waste of money.
> These might be too warm in color for your taste Andrew?



You have to watch photos - you need to see them wet. Often then look fairly uniform different tones of grey/brown but they can end up very different colours wet! If you get enough you can pick through if you don't want any outliers. The unipac natural gravels match quite well for small stuff, but their idea of 'round' is a bit hit an miss. 

Have you tried visiting your local garden/landscaping supplies?


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## Hufsa (5 Feb 2020)

tam said:


> You have to watch photos - you need to see them wet. Often then look fairly uniform different tones of grey/brown but they can end up very different colours wet! If you get enough you can pick through if you don't want any outliers. The unipac natural gravels match quite well for small stuff, but their idea of 'round' is a bit hit an miss.
> 
> Have you tried visiting your local garden/landscaping supplies?



The scottish cobbles I have seen online have had wet pictures and look like the colors I want, but getting them shipped over here would be difficult.

My local places all have very mottled stone types in their bags.


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## Andrew Butler (5 Feb 2020)

Hufsa said:


> The scottish cobbles I have seen online have had wet pictures and look like the colors I want


As did all the ones I saw, in reality they're not like that as @tam says and it's even more obvious by a long way when underwater.
They're a whole mixture of different stone types that over the countless years have drifted from various places.

I was unable to find anything that matched throughout size range easily so decided a contrasting look of a lighter coloured sand with darker stones is probably the way forward for me.
The ones I have seen seem to have people sourcing the larger stones from the seaside themselves.


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## Hufsa (5 Feb 2020)

Maybe we should ask where Tim Harrison got his gravels from, from this post https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads...trate-layout-updated.22651/page-2#post-240894
It was way back in 2012 though


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## jaypeecee (6 Feb 2020)

Hi @Andrew Butler 

Have you looked at the Unipac range:

http://www.unipacpet.co.uk/aquatic/natural-gravel/

http://www.unipacpet.co.uk/aquatic/rocks-and-stones/

Unipac are hardly one of the more glamorous names around but they have a good selection. I just bought one of their sand products and I like it a lot. Their range is available from Pro Shrimp.

Good luck!

JPC


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## Andrew Butler (6 Feb 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> Have you looked at the Unipac range


Thanks @jaypeecee I've looked through the gravels before and had a couple of different types to look at, the problem was following that through with something bigger in size increments of the same size. I could get sand/gravel although most of it still contained quite a lot of white unless I went very dark, small stones that matched not so much and working my way upto big stones I just couldn't do so I gave up on this idea in the end.


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## dw1305 (6 Feb 2020)

Hi all, 





Hufsa said:


> Tim Harrison got his gravels from, from this post https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads...trate-layout-updated.22651/page-2#post-240894 It was way back in 2012 though


I'm not a gravel fan normally, but I really like what @Tim Harrison had done with the gravel, very natural looking.

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee (6 Feb 2020)

dw1305 said:


> I'm not a gravel fan normally...



Hi Darrel,

Does that mean you prefer sand or some other alternative? And is that for aesthetic or other reasons?

JPC


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## dw1305 (6 Feb 2020)

Hi all,





jaypeecee said:


> And is that for aesthetic or other reasons?


Other reasons really. When I had some higher flow tanks (I had an excursion in Loricariids) <"I used coarser substrates"> and let the current sort them. If I kept Hill Stream loaches etc. I'd return to rounded gravel as a substrate. Have a look at @doylecolmdoyle <"loaches thread">.




 

I've mainly kept _Apistogramma_ and _Corydoras_ in recent years, and they both <"naturally feed from the sand">, and usually occur in <"habitats with fine substrates">.

I also have <"structural" leaf litter"> in the tanks, so sand is just so much easier to manage, with the leaf fragments etc sitting on the top of the sand. I keep _Asellus_ and MTS in the tanks as "tank janitors". 

I'm pretty sure that gravel vacuuming isn't good for any substrate and it isn't an activity that I'm going to engage in. If I had gravel I would need to find a new range of organisms that would perform that janitorial role in among the gravel fragments.

cheers Darrel


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## castle (6 Feb 2020)

Gravel is my second favourite substrate (after uncapped dirt), I've always loved how sediment collects within the gravel - always has aided organisms in my tanks to thrive. Only recently moved to sand, and in the next tank I will be using gravel and sand in a 70/30 split. I don't like pure sand tanks.


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## Andrew Butler (2 Jan 2021)

zozo said:


> If its from Belgium it's 95% from a quarry situated and diggin at the river Meuse..  Sourcing garden centres etc you might find the very same gravel dennerle sells to decorate your home driving lane to the garage etc.
> 
> Google
> maasgrind - Google Search
> ...


The above information Marcel gives I think is pretty much spot on, cannot seem to find any availability in the UK though.
At present I'm just looking to match the Dennerle Plantahunter river gravel with a few slightly larger pebbles/stones/cobbles - I've the gravel in S (4-8mm) and L (8-12mm) so upwards of there looking to draw focus on the darker and grey tones primarily, avoiding the very pale ones, although I like the way a few have the white veins running through them so that might be even better.

Scottish pebbles/stones/cobbles just don't match the bill and I've been through a few bags hunting!

In my part of the country anything I dig up or have access to either doesn't match and/or isn't suitable so wonder if anyone in other parts of the UK has any smooth pebbles/stones/cobbles they have access to fitting the specifications and would be wiling to help me out, I'd of course pay for the service.
Sizes ranging from 12mm upto 75 or even 100mm depending on shape etc I think sounds about right.

Thanks
Andrew


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## zozo (2 Jan 2021)

You might be lucky with contacting a roofer, a road worker or a garden architect company.  These all occasionally use river cobbles in their projects. They must know the suppliers, issues you might run into they only supply Big Bags, but you might be lucky to find one with a heart for hobbyists and say come and get a bucket...


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## Andrew Butler (2 Jan 2021)

Thanks @zozo - I'm familiar with standard suppliers and supplies, also the one offs and the only way is to get a bulk bag from source as you say at a stupid amount of money.
Garden architects are a good call, will have a talk with some friends to ask their friends.
It's all Scottish cobbles over here as standard in those sizes which unfortunately don't suit what I'm looking for.

In certain parts of the UK I know there is similar, just not close to me or I have access to. Hopefully someone on here will answer my calls with any luck.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (2 Jan 2021)

Are you talking stuff like this but smaller?


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## dw1305 (2 Jan 2021)

Hi all, 


Andrew Butler said:


> looking to draw focus on the darker and grey tones primarily, avoiding the very pale ones, although I like the way a few have the white veins running through them so that might be even better.


That is trickier, most of the local rounded gravel in SE UK is likely to be flint based and lighter coloured.  You need a member from NW UK to go and collect you some from <"a mafic igneous rock source">.

cheers Darrel


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## AverageWhiteBloke (2 Jan 2021)

dw1305 said:


> You need a member from NW UK


That's what I'm thinking mate, unless we're talking different stuff here the colours @Andrew Butler is looking for is pretty much the norm everywhere. You can buy crusher run stuff from local quarries which grades from 75mm down to dust and the local beaches are covered in the stuff. St Bees in particular.


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## Andrew Butler (2 Jan 2021)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Are you talking stuff like this but smaller?


I'd like to have smooth, rounded pebbles or cobbles.
I'll refer back to the Escape aquarium which will hopefully give you a rough idea only I might want a few more that next size up also.


dw1305 said:


> You need a member from NW UK to go and collect you some


It's what I'm hoping for, I know there are these colour tones and shapes around the lakes - Cumbria would be a good place!


AverageWhiteBloke said:


> That's what I'm thinking mate, unless we're talking different stuff here the colours @Andrew Butler is looking for is pretty much the norm everywhere. You can buy crusher run stuff from local quarries which grades from 75mm down to dust and the local beaches are covered in the stuff. St Bees in particular.


Crusher Run / MOT type 1 is all ironstone and clay around here from the local quarries.
There's no beaches local to where I am in Banbury - about as far away from the sea as you can get and don't see the opportunity to get to one coming anytime soon.
The colours are certainly ones you could pick out at a beach but you can find almost any colour on the right beach.


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## tam (2 Jan 2021)

Unipac black baltic pebbles? They are dark grey with the line through?

Have you tried ebay? Easier to get small batches of different rocks aimed at decorative/craft etc. there is a fair few listings with grey/black of various sizes e.g. 20 kg Basalt Landscaping Pebbles/Stones (changes to black when wet) 70mm-160mm  | eBay

Try searchng for basalt to get dark ones.


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