# Possible BBA and a host of questions



## Marcus_F

Hi all,

New member having been recommend this place on a fish forum for some advice.  I've been reading and researching all weekend to a point where I feel I have a basic understanding of the chemistry involved and how it should all work however trying to put it into practice on my tank I'm a bit lost as it doesn't all add up.  I'm at the point now where I'm not sure where I should post my questions or which area of the tank I should tackle first.  Decided Algae first because well I think I have Black Beard Algae.

The details of my tank which has been running for 9months now.

1. Size of tank - 170L (Cube 53x53 with a depth of 56)
2. Filtration - Fluval 307 external cannister
3. Lighting and duration - Just changed to Fluval Plant Spectrum 3.0 (38W).  4 days ago it was Fluval Aquasky 53cm which I think was  16W.  The Aquasky was on 10hrs a day, I was given the impression the depth of the tank was causing issues for the 18W to reach the floor.  The new Plant Spectrum is now on 8hrs a day, the blue has been reduced from the start (5%) as it was on the Aquasky.  Whites both on 80% and red 55%.  
4. Substrate - Caribsea Eco Complete
5. Co2 - No injection, just stared Seachem Excel dosing in the last two weeks.  I add 8ml every day but only in last two days have I started adding it just before lights go on.  Prior to that I was adding it in the evening almost as lights go off.
6. Fertilizers used + Ratios - JBL ProFlora Ferropol, 40ml when I change 35 litres each week and a further 20ml midweek.  First dose of Seachem Potassium used yesterday 8ml will add 2nd dose tomorrow with the aim to be 3 times a week and also added a Seachem root tab under my Amazon  Sword to help. 
7. Water change regime - 35 litres a week ( about 20%)
8. Plant list: 
Cryptocoryne Becketti 'Petchii' - From the start
Echinodorus Bleherae - Again from the start, looks to have some for or nutrient deficiency, oldest leaves go brown at tips, still seeing new healthy green growth.
Limnophila Sessiliflora - From the start originally, it died.  Another one put in about 6 weeks ago.
Vallisneria americana Gigantea - Growing well, seeing runners shoot up I think but has the algae over it.
9. Inhabitants - Cardinal Tetra's, Dwarf Rainbowfish, Penguin Tetra, Cherry Barb, Black Widow Tetra






Now for the algae, here are some not so clear pics I was able to take two days ago.









Despite my research online I've not yet seen BBA which is so fluffy and across full leaves, all examples I've seen are tufts of it.  I did originally see tufts on the wood which is why I think it's BBA.  Can see some reddish where the Excel has been directed on to the leaves and wood but it's too much to directly apply without massively overdosing.

My plants look poor, are not growing as intended maybe with the exception of the Vallis and small Crypto.  I originally started looking at ways to help my plants to grow better, thinking if I were to solve that issue it would kind of resolve the algae issue.  So my research began and over the last 6 weeks I've been trying to make adjustments.

My tap water is ridiculously hard think it read 21dKH and similar GH.  So I started to mix with RO water.  Well I say RO water, it's not from a fish shop or made myself, I get it from PureWater Solutions.  It's for window cleaners but is pure water like RO and read a few different places people have used it with great success.  Anyway, fish etc. all the same as prior use.  On my tap water I also use  a Pozzini filter as tap water is 40ppm Nitrate and I wanted it lower.  So now my water change of 35 litres holds just 5ppm Nitrate.  Wanted the RO water to get my hadrness down for my fish so intention was about 7 or 8 KH.  I started at 50/50 and then 66/33 the larger value being RO.  My last change at the weekend I used 75% RO which read 5dKH which is where I want it to be I believe try and help my 8.2PH and minimal CO2 levels.

I was going to write more about how i've looked at the PH and it's relation to KH value and if my understanding is right, the drop of the PH would help with a slight increase of CO2 for my Easy rated Tropica plants.

I do have some Hygrophila difformis and Egeria densa on order which should arrive this week to help draw out all the nutrient to combat the algae.  Oh and I added a power head at the weekend to try improve circulation and it certainly looks to be helping, much great movement on the plants. 

As you can see I've been over reading in trying to understand a lot of what is going on.  I did have a good read over some topics here too but I'm getting myself into a bit of a mess of what should I do.  I guess the main question is, do I forget my plants and target the algae problem or as I've been lead to believe and trying to achieve, get my plants healthy and in good growth which will in turn sort the algae out.

Thank you for your patience if you got to the end


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## Kezzab

Hi, my tuppence worth... if plants are happy and growing well then algae tends not to be a problem. Focus on plant health rather than algae eradication. You wont really get rid of the algae thats on the plants now, but keep an eye on new growth comingtjrough. If it stays clean then you are solving the problem.

With the exception of one leaf, the algae in the pictures looks like a green fuzz algae type thing. 

It may be worth dimming the light intensity for a few weeks and see how plants respond. Its also the case that many people find vallis reacts badly to excel/liquid carbon, but should do well in hard water. Maybe stop the excel too (although it does have combat algae a bit).

The thing this probably isnt about is excess nutrients. So by all means its a good idea to add more plant mass as that usually helps, but not because you are removing nutrients. You could do that more easuly simply by stopping dosing fertiliser (which probably wouldnt be a good idea). 

I also think ferrapol is just a micro nutrient mix. So you are adding potassium, have high nitrates in the tap water, but there's no phosphate being added anywhere (i think!). Perhaps try an all in one fert like TNC Complete instead of the combo you are using.

Others more expert than me can set me straight on any of this!


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## Marcus_F

Thank you,

Yeah Ferrapol is micro only, the tap water being high Nitrate is a non issue now I use RO mix.  The tank always measures around 20ppm Nitrate although the colour of the API kits does leave some what interpretation to 10 or 20ppm orange.   I began to add Potassium only because Phosphate test reads 0.25ppm which I was told is a fine level and would a macro all in increase Nitrate?


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## rebel

While the advice of focus on plant health is a good one, for significant outbreaks like this you need to follow the following principles.
1. Manual removal (daily).
2. Chemical attack daily. Almost anything can be used including your usual ferts if you stop filters and do a spot dosing.
3. Add algae eaters (can just be temporary).
4. Frequent water changes and filter cleaning.

Once the algae is almost defeated then you can concentrate on plants again. 

This algae looks like staghorn though. You need to be very aggressive because staghorn can break people; even experienced ones.


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## Witcher

Marcus_F said:


> now my water change of 35 litres holds just 5ppm Nitrat


Hey @Marcus_F with all respect to you, but there are (almost) no plants in that tank so you can't reach biological stability, I think you'll need to at least triple the plant mass to keep everything stable and to make those algae dying.
Other few things - it looks that you dose only 1ppm (approximately) of NO3 weekly (assuming 170l tank and water change containing only 5ppm of NO3 in 30l of water). I think you'll need at least between 5-10x of that amount (5-10ppm/whole tank) with no gaseous CO2.


Marcus_F said:


> Phosphate test reads 0.25ppm


Plus you seem to have extremely low amount of PO4 in the tank.

If it was my tank, I'd massively increase plant mass, slowly increase NO3 to approx7-10ppm (only guessing, you'll need to test the amounts in your tank), increase PO4 to approx 2-5ppm, stop messing with water hardness (mix it with RO but keep it STABLE for all the time, especially gH), daily dose your typical dose of excel/carbo, make sure you have Iron+micro+K available for plants (keeping iron at approx 0.1ppm but again that's only a guess) and I can bet most of those algae will die with no of your additional input - just make sure you have *lots of plants* and NO3 never reaches 0 (while other ferts present in the tank) and generally stable conditions.


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## rebel

Without getting complex about the ferts, I think you should put a fertiliser tab under each of those plants. Do big WC often.


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## Kezzab

rebel said:


> This algae looks like staghorn though. You need to be very aggressive because staghorn can break people; even experienced ones.


Hi,  what makes say staghorn? It seems green and without any of the branching typical of staghorn. 
K


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## Marcus_F

Witcher said:


> it looks that you dose only 1ppm (approximately) of NO3 weekly (assuming 170l tank and water change containing only 5ppm of NO3 in 30l of water). I think you'll need at least between 5-10x of that amount (5-10ppm/whole tank) with no gaseous CO2.



Thanks for your reply, completely agree the plant mass is low, I did have more at initial setup which didnt make it, I was also expecting some of these plants to have a lot more to them especially the stem plant.   I don't dose NO3 the by product of RO and Tap Water mix gives me a reading of 5ppm Nitrate before I add it to the thank.   Nothing else is add anything to this.  The tank does run at around 10 - 20ppm always been this ready when I test at different intervals.  I'm a little lost when you say I should increase my NO3 by x5 or x10  Are you suggesting my NO3 reading of the water I'm adding at the change should read closer to 10ppm?  My NO3 has never reached 0.  I might take a reading each day so I can see how it evolves from the water change.  



Witcher said:


> increase PO4 to approx 2-5ppm,



I was reading all weekend that anything over 2ppm Phosphate would cause an Algae bloom and the suggested levels were 0.1 -1.0?  Quite happy to be corrected, just like to understand things myself rather than blindly add stuff for the sake of it.

I actually spoke to Fluval to help with the light and they said to add phosphate removal pads to stop the BBA algae.  This was a week ago, not had a chance to act on that yet.


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## Kezzab

Hi, i'm a simple fellow when it comes to all this. Once we get into PPM territory i run and hide. Maybe you like the numbers, but it seems confusing.

If i were you i'd forget about chasing numbers. Stick with your 50/50 RO/Tap water mix then just start dosing a complete fert at the recommended dose for your tank - stop all your others fert/chemicals. Don't worry about what PPM it is or isnt. Stick with it for a few weeks and see the impact. It cant make things much worse.

The suggestion to add phosphate removal pads its not something ive seen in relation to BBA (which i dont think you have anyway) and the repeated evidence from people on this forum is that very large amounts of fertiliser can be added to a tank without causing algae.

I genuinely think reading too much can be more of a hindrance than a help sometimes.
K


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## sparkyweasel

Marcus_F said:


> I was reading all weekend that anything over 2ppm Phosphate would cause an Algae bloom


That is a common myth. Apparently phosphate from agricultural run-off is associated with algal blooms in lakes, but that is a very different situation. Somebody must have put 2 and 2 together and got 587.  
If you want even more reading, there are threads on here debunking the myth, both with science and with empirical results in real tanks.
If you starve your plants of phosphate (or any other nutrient) they will struggle. Algae are adaptable opportunists, and there are lots of different kinds, they can exploit any wet habitat. With low, high or imbalanced nutrients you just get different algae that can use what's available.
The best way to combat them is with healthy plant growth. The extra plants you have ordered will help, and you need to use fertilisers containing all the nutrients for plant health.


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## sparkyweasel

Marcus_F said:


> I actually spoke to Fluval


I've nothing against Fluval and I've had some good products from them.
But I like to get advice from a source that isn't trying to sell me anything.


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## sparkyweasel

Marcus_F said:


> As you can see I've been over reading in trying to understand a lot of what is going on. I did have a good read over some topics here too but I'm getting myself into a bit of a mess of what should I do.


Obviously I am biased, being a member, but I have a lot more confidence in what I read on here than elsewhere. That's _why _I am a member.


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## dw1305

Hi all, 
Welcome @Marcus_F.  Have a look at the <"Duckweed Index">, it is a simple method where you use <"the growth"> and <"colour of a floating plant"> to indicate the nutrient status of your tank.  

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee

Hi @Marcus_F 

I don't know how you'll feel about the suggestion I'm just about to make, nor am I sure if it's the right thing to do. But, as you don't have many plants in the tank, would it be possible to temporarily re-house your fish in another tank and, dare I say it, make a fresh start on this tank? I'd be interested to hear the views of everyone else on this. But, it's your tank and your decision.

What say you?

JPC


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## Marcus_F

Thanks all, glad the phosphate is a myth can't believe I've not come across that in everything I've read.  Certainly gives me more confident to stay with a complete major fert rather than split it all up. 

The new plants arrived today and installed.  Five bunches of Egeria densa and five bunches of Hygrophila difformis although I hate having to install stem plants, always get floaters.  So far so good but I did turn the power  head off.

I have two large stones too so going to get some Microsorum pteropus 'Windeløv and also get some more Cryptocoryne Becketti 'Petchii' which is my best grower in the foreground which I really like.


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## Witcher

Marcus_F said:


> RO and Tap Water mix gives me a reading of 5ppm Nitrate before I add it to the thank. Nothing else is add anything to this. The tank does run at around 10 - 20ppm always been this ready when I test at different intervals.


I think that relatively high level of _unconsumed _NO3 in your tank is a direct effect of low phosphates (they actually work in synergy to my observation, PO4 (and Fe) is literally allowing NO3 to be incorporated in plant tissue. But I must admit that some of your calculations seems to be unclear - do you do water changes with 20% of water containing 5ppm of NO3? Because that gives you only 1ppm of NO3 for the whole volume of the tank after water change and that's why I think you'll need at least 5x more than that with no gaseous CO2.




Marcus_F said:


> I was reading all weekend that anything over 2ppm Phosphate would cause an Algae bloom and the suggested levels were 0.1 -1.0? Quite happy to be corrected, just like to understand things myself rather than blindly add stuff for the sake of it.



That's certainly not true and I'll definitely agree with @sparkyweasel - PO4 (if balanced, correlated with other nutrients) causing algae blooms on its own is a myth. Of course PO4 can cause algae blooms, but at extremely high levels (and other nutrients can do the same thing when they are available in massive quantities caused for example by extensive farming and leaching nutrients to the rivers etc). Level of PO4 need to be correlated wit levels of NO3/Fe to my observation and has nothing to do with algae blooms unless it will be left out of control. As an example just now I keep my tank with (weekly) 8-9 ppm of NO3, 0,18ppm of Fe and 7.5pm of PO4 - and I have only some string algae here and there, but overall, my plants look super healthy - and frankly speaking supplying large amounts of phosphates (of course large to some levels) over last few months was probably the best thing I did to my tank over last few years (I think relatively larger amounts of PO4 overall had more impact on my tank than supplying CO2 which I've ditched completely few months ago) - it was a test and I'm very happy with it. 

And I strongly believe that those famous experiments conducted by  PaulSears and Kevin C. Conlin accusing PO4 of being the main causes of algae are to be blamed for all the fear folks feel when pouring PO4 to their tanks. Completely unnecessary.


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## Marcus_F

Witcher said:


> I think that relatively high level of _unconsumed _NO3 in your tank is a direct effect of low phosphates (they actually work in synergy to my observation, PO4 (and Fe) is literally allowing NO3 to be incorporated in plant tissue. But I must admit that some of your calculations seems to be unclear - do you do water changes with 20% of water containing 5ppm of NO3? Because that gives you only 1ppm of NO3 for the whole volume of the tank after water change and that's why I think you'll need at least 5x more than that with no gaseous CO2.



I'm still a little lost but let me try and explain what's happening.  The tank was started up 9 months ago, always used tap water, never had issue etc. but I did use the test strips not real solutions.  So with the new tank, I wanted to do it right so I got the API solutions to test.  I was testing all the time and my NO3 for 6 weeks no matter the water changes would never get before 40ppm and often was over 50ppm when testing using API NO3 test solution (two bottles).  It was pointed out to me that there is a strong chance my tap water has a high level of NO3 in it and in testing the water I found my tap water was 40ppm on the API test.  

I was always told with fish and I was 99% concentrating on my fish at this stage, that you need 0 ammonia, 0 Nitrite and you did water changes to keep Nitrate under 40ppm.  So I was shocked to find I was adding 40ppm at a water change which was intended to dilute the NO3.  I was worried this 40ppm with fish waste would then increase to 50 or 60 or I'd have to complete countless water changes a week just to keep it at 40.  So i invested in a Pozzani filter which can give me 0ppm NO3 but I let it run a little quicker than quoted so not all is removed.

The end result is my 35 litres of water which is a mix of RO and filtered Tap reads about 5ppm of NO3 and I add this to my 170 litre tank.  I'm guessing the fish waste contributes to keeping the tank reading itself always around 20ppm NO3 on the API test.

Sorry I still don't understand why I'd want to increase my NO3 by x5 to a reading 25ppm NO3 as a minimum.  It can easily be done, I can mix the RO water directly from the Tap without the filter.

I will add before any jumps on my about fluctuations  all of the above including my changes to RO/Tap mixes has been done very slowly over time with small percentages at a time.


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Marcus_F said:


> that you need 0 ammonia, 0 Nitrite and you did water changes to keep Nitrate under 40ppm. So I was shocked to find I was adding 40ppm at a water change which was intended to dilute the NO3. I was worried this 40ppm with fish waste would then increase to 50 or 60 or I'd have to complete countless water changes a week just to keep it at 40.


Don't worry too much about the nitrate level, have a look at <"What about test kits"> and linked threads. The great thing about planted tanks is that  the level of NO3 goes down rather than up. 

There are a number of reasons for this, as well as direct uptake by the plant they create a much larger volume where <"aerobic microbial nitrification, and anaerobic microbial denitrification can occur">. 





Marcus_F said:


> So i invested in a Pozzani filter which can give me 0ppm NO3 but I let it run a little quicker than quoted so not all is removed.


You can use nitrate exchange resins to reduce the level of NO3 in your water, but they are an expensive option and you still have the issue of not knowing when the resin is exhausted. 

I'll be honest I haven't got a lot of time for the vendors of a number of these sorts of <"magic bullets">,  and I look at them as a bit like <"payday lenders"> or <"betting companies">.  There is no money to be made in telling people that they can use plants to:

Reduce nutrients
Improve water quality
and as a visual guide to nutrient status. 
Have a look at <"How achievable is a nitrate free....">, it goes through the options for nitrate depletion. There are a number of opinions on how effective tests kits for nitrate are, <"personally I wouldn't base my decisions on the results of a NO3 test">.

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee

Hi @Marcus_F


jaypeecee said:


> ...dare I say it, make a fresh start on this tank?



I guess my suggestion went down like a lead balloon!  

JPC


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## jaypeecee

Hi @Marcus_F 

The reason I made the suggestion in post #14 was because I fear that the algae may spread to any new plants and get out of control. Rather than try to 'blitz' the tank as it stands, I felt that a fresh start was worth considering. So, I think we need to bring that algae under control. It is some form of brush (or beard) algae. Pinning down which one is probably immaterial. I'm wondering if you have too much light going into your tank. It's light that dictates how much nutrients (ferts) are needed and that includes the big one - carbon. I suspect there may be a problem here. It's always difficult looking at a photo but your tank appears very brightly lit. I see that you're using _Excel_ of which I have negligible experience. Are you using the recommended dose?

That'll do for now.

JPC


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## Marcus_F

Really don’t want to scrape it and start again.  Would also mean buying a new tank as I don’t have another big enough to take all the fish.

lighting could be bright, when I took the photo it was at 80% I’ve now reduced it to 50% and only 6hrs. Does seem dark to me, worried some of the plants won’t have sufficient light which I’m sure is possible cause of my stem plants being green for the first 2cm then brown to the base.

current setup...


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## Marcus_F

Tank now with the Light reduction


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## Marcus_F

Is it dangerous to also be thinking of CO2 or is it a crazy thought until I get things settled and I know what I’m doing.  
Slightly worried that I’m running out of substrate place for more plants but that might be my lack of experience in placement.


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## sparkyweasel

Marcus_F said:


> Would also mean buying a new tank as I don’t have another big enough to take all the fish.


The perfect excuse for another tank.


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## sparkyweasel

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Marcus_F
> 
> 
> I guess my suggestion went down like a lead balloon!
> 
> JPC


It would work, but I think a lot of people just prefer to try to save what they've got rather than scrap it and start again. Even when restarting is clearly the better option, and I don't think it is _clearly_ _better _in this case. It's certainly a good plan though, and a viable option for Marcus to consider.


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## Kezzab

Marcus_F said:


> Is it dangerous to also be thinking of CO2 or is it a crazy thought until I get things settled and I know what I’m doing.
> Slightly worried that I’m running out of substrate place for more plants but that might be my lack of experience in placement.


Co2 isnt rocket science (i just about manage it!), but you are getting a bit tied in knots now and adding Co2 will just make it knottier. Get your tank on an even keel. You could then add Co2 if you wanted, at least you'd know at that point that Co2 was the only variable you are changing. Rather than now when you are doing changes to lights, ferts, water changes etc etc.

In terms of space for plants, you've got the whole of the front of the tank and all that wood for epiphytes. You could easily double what you have would be my guess.


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## Marcus_F

I didn't think I was in knots until it was suggested scraping it and starting again would be my better option.  I hadn't actually realised I was in that much trouble. 

I've been looking but can't find like a beginners thread on the balance you need?  Or something about lights?  I can only find really technical discussions.

I do think my biggest issue is the light in that I don't know what to do with it.  How do you calculate if you have it at high intensity or not and how long it's on for.  My worry is the 22" depth of my aquarium means reducing the lights to 48% and on for just 6hrs is depriving the plants of what they need.  I think I'm overly worried as I've such massive failure with my stem plants.


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## jaypeecee

sparkyweasel said:


> It would work, but I think a lot of people just prefer to try to save what they've got rather than scrap it and start again. Even when restarting is clearly the better option, and I don't think it is _clearly_ _better _in this case. It's certainly a good plan though, and a viable option for Marcus to consider.



Hi @sparkyweasel 

I fully understand. As I said initially, I wasn't even sure myself that restarting was the way to go. But, I thought it was worth tossing the idea into the melting pot - even if I was at risk of being thrown into the melting pot instead!

JPC


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## jaypeecee

Marcus_F said:


> I didn't think I was in knots until it was suggested scraping it and starting again would be my better option.



Hi @Marcus_F 

I didn't actually say a restart would be your _better option_. That's not my way of working. I simply felt it was the right time to throw in the idea. And I made it clear that I wasn't even sure myself if it was the right way to go. Plus, I was openly inviting comments from others.

JPC


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## Marcus_F

Fully understand why you put the idea out there, panicked me a little.

I only go for Easy rated plants, I'm seeing that should be around 10 - 2o lumens per litre.  My light can produce 2350 lumens and tank is registered as 170 litres which gives a value of 13.82 lumens per litre.  If I reduce the light to 48% so that mean I'm only at 7 lumens per litre and so no good for growing plants?


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## jaypeecee

Marcus_F said:


> Fully understand why you put the idea out there, panicked me a little.



Hi @Marcus_F 

As I have no intention of causing you any panic, I will now take a back seat on this thread and will watch with interest to see how things unfold.

JPC


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## Kezzab

Hi, didnt mean to sound patronising.
I totally agree that discussion often jumps right into high technical detail and its often baffling. 

Your light is a case in point. There is loads of adjustment but its impossible to know what it really means for your tank. Its worthless info.

That's why i suggest you ignore it all and keep it simple. Low light (guess it), complete fertiliser, 50/50 RO and tap, 50% water change a week, more plants.

Then watch what the plants do and take it from there. 

That's not meant to be glib. There is so muxh information you simply dont need to have reasonable success. Of course if you want to go Premier League you can go nuts with chemistry and physics. 

K


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## Marcus_F

Oh no didnt come across patronising, far from it it's all been a great help.

Can I ask what we're trying to achieve with a 50% water change?  Is it to dilute nutrients in the water or is it to replenish certain ones?


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## hypnogogia

Marcus_F said:


> Oh no didnt come across patronising, far from it it's all been a great help.
> 
> Can I ask what we're trying to achieve with a 50% water change?  Is it to dilute nutrients in the water or is it to replenish certain ones?


From and EI dosing perspective, it is to reset the nutrients in the tank, as well as to remove organic waste produced by your fish and plants.


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## Kezzab

50% wc a week is the standard planted tank advice.  The main reason for me is removing organic waste from plants and fish.


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## Kezzab

In fact, the main reason for me is because if i dont then i can visibly see the tank go downhill. I read that this is because of build up of organic waste and ill take their word for it. But i continue because its clearly beneficial.


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## Marcus_F

Ok, I'm going to need a bigger bucket.  Only setup to hold 36 litres at a time.


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## Marcus_F

How should you go about introducing new plants?  I had a snail issue in the mini fluval, dont want that again or introduce anything I shouldn't.


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## Witcher

sparkyweasel said:


> The perfect excuse for another tank.


I'm afraid my wife don't believe that excuse anymore.


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## Witcher

Marcus_F said:


> The end result is my 35 litres of water which is a mix of RO and filtered Tap reads about 5ppm of NO3 and I add this to my 170 litre tank. I'm guessing the fish waste contributes to keeping the tank reading itself always around 20ppm NO3 on the API test.
> 
> Sorry I still don't understand why I'd want to increase my NO3 by x5 to a reading 25ppm NO3 as a minimum. It can easily be done, I can mix the RO water directly from the Tap without the filter.



Ok, so it means you add only approx 1ppm of NO3 for the whole volume of the tank and either NO3 is not consumed by plants or tests are giving you false results. I'd just add more NO3 - approx. 5-7ppm/wk for the whole volume, (that's why I'm talking about increasing it by 5x) and PO4 - at least 1.5 ppm weekly for whole tank. Sessiflora I see in the 4th image you've pasted is almost yellow - assuming this is how it looks in reality it's definitely NO3 deficient (or being kept under very strong light which reduces the need for the chlorophyll/NO3/Mg/C).



Marcus_F said:


> Tank now with the Light reduction



While I'd agree with other fellas suggesting you to lower the light intensity to fight certain algae, I think in this particular case nutrients are the main problem, not the light. BTW you can also use alder cones to lower the light intensity (they will tint he water with yellowish-brown tinge) or put some floating plants - which will also increase plant mass.



Marcus_F said:


> Ok, I'm going to need a bigger bucket.  Only setup to hold 36 litres at a time.


You don't use EI method for keeping your tank (you actually dose extremely low ferts - good for red plants and you have no gaseous CO2 apart from what bacteria will convert to CO2 using excel doses), I think such a large water changes are completely unnecessary. Just increase your NO3 and PO4, wait few weeks and that's it.


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## sparkyweasel

Witcher said:


> . Sessiflora I see in the 4th image you've pasted is almost yellow - assuming this is how it looks in reality it's definitely NO3 deficient


Well spotted! I think that confirms what we suspected.
@Marcus_F I think you should get a good, complete fertiliser, eg TNC Complete, and start by dosing as per the instructions to keep things simple. Combined with your new plants, I think that will be a great help. Personally, I wouldn't change anything else just yet, but see how things go for a while. I don't like changing too many things at once as it's hard  to tell which change is having what effect.
Later on, you can worry about ppms and ratios, and eventually we will convert you to mixing your own ferts.


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## Kezzab

Witcher said:


> I think such a large water changes are completely unnecessary. Just increase your NO3 and PO4, wait few weeks and that's it.


That's good a point. My comment about 50% was more for a co2 injected tank. But it wouldnt hurt to some larger water changes initially then once tank is settled and growing scale back on size and frequency.


----------



## castle

I'm no expert, but I'd 'start again'. 

Get new plants, (loads of them, and some super easy ones like S.Subulata) look at getting some floaters.
Bleach/boil the wood (and wash away bleach if used)
Remove all plants in tank (just cut them down to the stem if completely covered in algae, else cut down to the lowest good leaf node) - some will grow back.
Put back wood.
Plant your new plants.
50% water change weekly. 
1ml of a plant feed a day (such as TNC complete, or Tropica specialised) 

Adjust light/ferts based on algae/plant growth and floating plants. 
Unsure on substrate, but add some root tabs, maybe.


----------



## Geoffrey Rea

Morning @Marcus_F 

Firstly, I see in post number 15 what looks like a a powerhead at the back pointed at the surface? If so this is a good move, given you’re not injecting Co2 there’s no reason to avoid a decent amount of surface agitation. Good gas exchange from ‘adequate’ surface agitation in a non-Co2 tank will pay dividends in the long run. Your plants, fish and bacteria can only benefit from a constant topping up of oxygen as well as other gases from the air.

Also, with your filter outlet being a jet style it can be difficult to get even flow around a cube aquarium. Tends to be very concentrated output with a jet. The gentle sway of the plants that you’re aiming for tends to be a few plants bopping like a raver, with others out of of the flow standing still with minimal flow across them. Too much direct flow stresses plants, whilst not enough can lead to distribution problems of nutrients and dissolved gases.

One improvement would be to point the powerhead and the jet towards the front glass so it drives water downwards and back along the bottom towards your plants. Watch your plants in this flow and try to get them moving as equally as possible, gentle swaying. The powerhead and jet will also draw water up from the back along with your intake, hopefully creating a circular and even flow around the tank.


Second, that’s a fair few fish... If you’re feeding everyday reduce their feed or even better skip a day between feeds. They’ll be hungrier and less likely to let food settle and pollute your water column. This is only a presumption that there’s excess food, ignore if it isn’t a factor.

Thirdly, water changes. If your tank is struggling to grow plants you will invariably have organics from those plants rotting into your water column. Your algae will love this, your plants, not so much. Not sure the reasoning for using RO/Tap mix but if it’s feasible you could just go tap water and do larger water changes (50% plus) until your tank bounces back. It’s easier using tap and therefore more likely to get done. If your tank was thriving then I would say you could reduce the amount, but the water changes from personal experience are your ticket out. No better filter than a water change under the current circumstances.

Finally, ferts. I’m a fan of KISS, keep it simple stupid. As others have said - using an all in one, comprehensive fertiliser like TNC Complete once per day before lights on will make your life simple. You’re running a low tech system so following the instructions on the bottle with what to dose will do the job.

- Gas exchange
- Even circulation 
- Minimal feeding of fish until plants are thriving
- Larger water changes until plants are growing well
- Daily comprehensive fertilisation

The above is pretty much free or cheap to implement. Wishing you a healthy tank ahead.


----------



## Marcus_F

Yes it's sessiflora and it is yellow, the top two branches are fine as is new growth but older branches are all light green/yellow.  

It is a power head yes, currently off since the new plants were added as I didnt want to unsettle them.  I already have 5 bunches floating this morning from being disturbed overnight I'll need to replant.  Are there any tricks to planting bunches without weights?  I'm useless at using tweezers, I push the stem in, pull it out and up comes the plant with me.  I usually resort to two fingers pushing stem in then free fingers to travel and shift the gravel around the side.  Try and get the stem 2" down and usually do that, just don't seem to hold.  That's why I'm worried about the power head, as it's a cube tank the flow is quite strong.  I got it to a point where it was working in tandem with the filter jet to meet at the front of the glass.  I then get to see the current down both sides of the wood and did see a much better waving of all the plants especially the vallis at the back.  The two front corners took a big impact though, was struggling to keep the sessiflora upright.

The RO/Tap mix is for the benefit of the fish I keep and want to keep due and my extremely hard water.


----------



## Geoffrey Rea

Marcus_F said:


> the flow is quite strong.



So it’s possible high flow is underpinning your problems. Is it possible to get a spray bar for your filters outlet? Did it come with a spray bar you can use to dispense the flow more evenly and effectively?




Marcus_F said:


> Are there any tricks to planting bunches without weights? I'm useless at using tweezers, I push the stem in, pull it out and up comes the plant with me.



All tweezers aren’t equal. Some are infuriating, others a pleasure to use.

As for technique... plant into the substrate at a slight angle, 40-45 degrees. Plant deep. Give it a wiggle before releasing the stem so the substrate settles in. Remove gently. If you plant straight down the stem will go whooshing straight out at the earliest opportunity.




Marcus_F said:


> I usually resort to two fingers pushing stem in then free fingers to travel and shift the gravel around the side.



This disturbance of the substrate needs to be followed by a water change. Turfing up your substrate does lead to some algae issues I’m afraid.


----------



## Marcus_F

Thanks the high flow won't be related to current issues, the power head is only 4 or so days old.  No spray bar attachment with it, but could look into adding one if it's possible, have heard good things about them.

Thanks for the tips on planting, I try and plant during the water change period as water level is lower.


----------



## Geoffrey Rea

Marcus_F said:


> but could look into adding one if it's possible



Here you go @Marcus_F

https://www.pond-planet.co.uk/aquarium-c4/media-spares-c113/aquarium-spare-parts-c100/fluval-0607-external-filter-spray-bar-kit-p3398/s5515?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=fluval-0607-external-filter-spray-bar-kit-a234&utm_campaign=product+listing+ads&cid=GBP&gclid=EAIaIQobChMImNTrgsH56QIVW-ztCh0S1w77EAQYASABEgKI9_D_BwE

Get you some decent surface agitation and even flow.


----------



## Marcus_F

Great thanks, wasn't expecting that price, in my head I thought £100 so nice surprise.

This removes the need for the power heard then as it's too strong?  I was looking to keep gravel clean and no dead spots for waste to settle specifically at the back at the base of the vallis.


----------



## Geoffrey Rea

Marcus_F said:


> Great thanks, wasn't expecting that price, in my head I thought £100 so nice surprise.



It says 607 rather than 307 so check to see if there’s any diameter difference. Just pulled up that link as it was first one up, but yes, inexpensive solution!




Marcus_F said:


> This removes the need for the power heard then as it's too strong?



From what you were saying earlier about direct concentrated flow causing issues with regards to lifting plants, yes, would be inclined to remove the power head and see what just the spray bar can do for your tank teamed up with the fluval 307 filter first.




Marcus_F said:


> I was looking to keep gravel clean and no dead spots for waste to settle specifically at the back at the base of the vallis.



This is why larger or more regular water changes during this current period can be helpful. (Very) gently wafting your hand over the area to raise any detritus and siphoning it out with each water change. With repetition the tank will get progressively clearer of decaying matter.


----------



## Marcus_F

Spray bar is in, making a bit of a whistling noise, got to take a look at some of the connections again tomorrow to see if I can make it silent.


----------



## Geoffrey Rea

Could be trapped air.

Let us know how it goes @Marcus_F


----------



## Marcus_F

Add some more plants, one more Cryptocoryne petchii For the front along with two Schismatoglottis prietoi and finally two Anubias Petite on the wood.






Not sure if Anubis is ok like this, just slid into position, not attached as it seems ok ish.


----------



## rebel

What's the status of the lagae now? I can't see the detail on your pics. Was it BBA or staghorn?


----------



## Marcus_F

I think it was isolated down to hair algae and it's early days but on the Vallis I think it's going.  I don't want to get ahead of myself and celebrate just yet so trying to remain neutral.  Doesn't appear to be any new algae on the new plants but they've only been in under a week so again I'm not getting ahead of myself just yet.  The Sessiflora has a lot of new growth which in the past has never happened (this is my 2nd attempt at this plant) so that's also promising.


----------



## Geoffrey Rea

Hopefully flow is improved now @Marcus_F 

Are you fertilising as before or trying a comprehensive fertiliser/regime now?


----------



## Marcus_F

Yep flow looks good, getting a gentle movement of all plants without blasting one of two which the power head did.  

I've not picked up the complete stuff, ditched Excel stuff but using Seachem NKP (three separate bottles) purely because I spent £30 on them only to be told to keep it simple and try TNC.  Once one of these bottles gets low I'll switch to TNC but it seems a waste as they were all only opened last week.


----------



## Geoffrey Rea

Marcus_F said:


> using Seachem NKP (three separate bottles) purely because I spent £30 on them only to be told to keep it simple and try TNC.



Well that’s your macro NPK sorted.

You could just add Seachem flourish to the set for your micro nutrients. It also has calcium and magnesium in as well. Tenner for a bottle. Done.

Dose your NPK one day, flourish the next, then NPK again... alternating. Problem solved.


----------



## Marcus_F

i've been doing as per the bottles say, adding Nitrate two days a week, phosphorous bottle 3 times a week and have Ferropol for micro done midweek and at water changes.


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @Marcus_F

I'm pleased to see that you are making good progress.



Geoffrey Rea said:


> You could just add Seachem flourish to the set for your micro nutrients.



Good suggestion.



Marcus_F said:


> ...ditched Excel stuff...



A source of carbon will still be needed - particularly with bright lighting. Just my two penn'orth.

JPC


----------



## Marcus_F

Thanks what other options of Carbon are available as I think Vallis and the egeria densa don't like Excel.

Maybe I should take the plunge and go CO2


----------



## jaypeecee

Marcus_F said:


> Thanks what other options of Carbon are available as I think Vallis and the egeria densa don't like Excel. Maybe I should take the plunge and go CO2



Hi @Marcus_F

It's looking that way, isn't it? Once you've got a lot of light going into a tank, the plants need fertilizers. Lighting calls the shots. And, there is a lot of light being emitted from current-day LED lighting. It's difficult for we humans to gauge this. This is because the iris in our eyes automatically adjusts how much light enters the eyes. The key word here is 'automatically'. And, to make things more difficult, plants see the colours of the lighting spectrum differently from humans. Our eyes are most sensitive to green/yellow whereas plants are most sensitive to the blue and red parts of the spectrum. You may already be aware of this.

Anyway, back to carbon. I've just started using an alternative liquid carbon product and only on a very small scale with low lighting. But, it may be best to opt for the tried-and-tested CO2. There's a lot of stuff here on UKAPS about CO2 and it is a _Specific Planted Discussion_ in its own right. I have to be honest and say that if there was a viable alternative, I'd be first in the queue. I have probably spent more time fiddling and faffing with CO2 than any other part of my setup. I think @JoshP12 is also having a few problems in this area. But, @Zeus. seems to have mastered it. Despite all this, I think CO2 is possibly the way forward.

JPC


----------



## JoshP12

Hi all and @Marcus_F, 

I read through the thread and there is great advice here. As I read your posts, Marcus, I totally feel for you - the beginner complete comprehensive guide - I needed it. I think the issue is that there are lots of great beginner guides, but the conversation becomes so complex and unique that there isn't much of a guide that isn't as follows:
1) Good substrate
2) Good flow
3) Good CO2
4) Good husbandry
5) Good fertilization
6) Good light
7) Good oxygen
8) Good gaseous exchange
9) Consistency  
10) Watch your tank and respond appropriately <-- the hardest part
11) Embrace a holistic approach to fish keep (this is my newest ideology) 

And then for each of these concepts, let us delve into "good" etc. 

"Grow Healthy plants" <-- I remember watching a video from Jurijs (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLgPlYlHA8HtIcKp33x0hdw) where he said, "step 1, learn how to grow plants". Ha, who knew that 5 words could encapsulate steps 1-10. The one benefit we have over terrestrial plants is that we don't have to water ours .  It's true, healthy plants resist algae attacks ... but sometimes old plant leaves get algae, not because they were unhealthy but because they are old - Barr mentioned that even his OLD S. repens leaves get some BBA - but just pinch them off (in a 2 foot tank with regular sized fingers on a tiny plant ... good luck). So when you grow healthy plants, then what prevents the algae from getting on hardscape? You can't grow healthy hardscape. You may have to remove it. This is where I am at right now in my journey.

A few things: 

You need to remove algae, so when there is a suggestion of a rescape, it is to start fresh and do it all right from the beginning ... with all your new knowledge. 

The problem is that if you do not know what "healthy" looks like, you will never be able to do the most important which is respond to the needs of the tank - so when masters profess that you just need to watch the fish or the plants and respond, it is hard - simply because we do not necessarily know what healthy looks like. 

Furthermore, what on earth does the word "good" mean. 

You have to ask yourself what you want. Then you decide what route to go CO2 injection or not. Lush scapes truly benefit from CO2 - otherwise you need to have mastered plants to produce a lush scape without the addition of any more CO2 (I am not here). CO2 is a beast - high risk, high reward. I set up a low tech tank upstairs for my wife (to house my angry betta) ... she wanted plastic plants and blue rocks ... to be honest a tiny betta in a 5 gallon tank with everything inert ... I chalk it full of duckweed and feed the guy every now and then. It's healthy - algae free - I don't even use a light ... just the light from my window that peers in - the filter (HOB) is empty except for 1 piece of foam ... I should probably throw pothos in it. It works... but I don't sit and watch it <-- that is the key. So I wanted CO2 for the scape that I want -- however, when the time comes, I will be making a low tech hornwort + duckweed EXTREMELY healthy tank where my fish will likely be happier than the stable pandemonium of the high tech world. 

Balance your tank - this means ferts + light + CO2 is all in line. Light is the gas pedal that drives photosynthesis which allows your plants to grow - photosynthesis needs CO2, so each mol of light needs a mol of co2 -- well ... then to avoid all algae just don't use light - but we are forced to use light to grow plants (as all plants require a minimum amount of light referred to as the LCP (Light compensation point). But if we have an amount of light and not enough CO2 for the plants to utilize it (and not enough OTHER ferts for the plants to utilize it), then the algae can take over. I used too little light before - and I was algae free ... but my plants rotted. 

If everything is "in check" then every wave that passes through the tank, carrying nutrients, is depleted by your plants, starving the algae - voila - a theoretical goal which will never be achieved as the tank constantly changes. So, being intimate with your system is the way to do it - and the pains and heart ache and failure are how you become intimate with the system. Then you restart with your new knowledge. That was the second thing Jurjis said, abandon your scape after 6 months then start again -- at that time I was like  ... I just want 1 scape that looks good.

I have already written a novel so I won't continue; however, I will provide some links for information that have helped me understand a few things. 

*Fertilization: *
Green aqua: 
Filipe Oliveira:  

Listen to how those two TALK about fertilization - they know the plants and the signs of deficiency. The reason CO2 is the most common response for deficiency to EI users is because that is all that is left. It is CO2 and light. And CO2 has flow and diffusion of gases. 

The top links "articles" - read all those .. I recently found them - excellent reads. There is the beginner guide. Here is Clive's EI post: https://www.ukaps.org/forum/pages/dosing-with-dry-salts/ 

Yes you can limit CO2 requirement by limiting other nutrients. CO2 is a nutrient like everything else and so if you are able to do something with phosphate (which by my reading seems to be the most influential) you can control the requirement of CO2 on the system. But you can't starve the plants. This is out my of league as of right now - I can attempt to wrap my head around the theory but I cannot with the implementation. 

This is where the notion of using a comprehensive fertilizer and going with it is excellent advice -- that way you don't have anything being limited. Do you need to have nothing limited for up to 650 mmol of lights from EI ... no ... but most people do just because it is "easier" -- then you can focus on CO2 + light mastery -- I don't think that half EI means 325 mmol of light either. 

This is awesome: https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/blogs/beginners-planted-tank-101/how-much-to-dose 

Dennis Wong also has youtube videos for everything. 

After ferts you have light and CO2 - at low tech no need to worry - but low-velocity, well-distributed flow is just good in general. Spray bar is nice - I see you have one. 

Cleaning your tank is key:  
The more you clean, the less bacteria have to do, the more oxygen for everyone. 

Cheers,
Josh


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @JoshP12

I very much like _what_ you have said above. And I also like the _way_ you have put this information across. But, now I may sound patronising! Sorry if that's how it appears. Anyway, it's a lot of information for @Marcus_F to absorb. So, fire away, @Marcus_F with any questions that you may have!

JPC


----------



## JoshP12

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @JoshP12
> 
> I very much like _what_ you have said above. And I also like the _way_ you have put this information across. But, now I may sound patronising! Sorry if that's how it appears. Anyway, it's a lot of information for @Marcus_F to absorb. So, fire away, @Marcus_F with any questions that you may have!
> 
> JPC



Not at all .

Josh


----------



## Marcus_F

Thank you will have a proper read and watch this weekend.

my biggest issue right now is keeping plants purchased as bunches in the substrate.  Infuriating.  Thought I was doing ok, no movement for two days and come down this morning to see loads floating.


----------



## Marcus_F

So I'm not sure the heavy planting to out compete Algae has worked for me yet.  The so called indestructible weed that can grow anywhere  egeria densa is now all gone an dead.  5 bunches, all separated out across 2 sides of the tanks now a distant memory in roughly 2 weeks.   The  Hygrophila difformis  another great plant for beginners isn't really doing anything, it's not growing, it doesn't look as green and bright now and I've lost a few that end up floating.  The constant replanting as destroyed the base which look all brown and mush.  Have one floating today which has roots spurting out, need to try and get that back in.

I can't keep buying plants for 2 weeks.


----------



## Siege

What temperature is your tank? I may have missed it.


----------



## Marcus_F

24.5C at the moment


----------



## Siege

I’d suggest turning it down to 23. It’ll help massively.

can you summarise the changes you’ve made as the thread is quite long.

Have you taken the sliding covers off the tank?


----------



## Marcus_F

I'll try and summarise if I can remember 

So lighting has been reduced to 6hrs a day, down from 8.5hrs.  Also decreased intensity with the LED lamp now at just 40% whites.  Red half that and blue right down to 3% although this wasn't a change. 

I've added more plants 5 bunches of  egeria densa, 5 bunches of  Hygrophila difformis which I think is known as Water Wysteria.  Also added two small anubias to the wood, two  Schismatoglottis prietoi and another  Cryptocoryne petchii.  This was all to try increase plant mass and the draw on nutrients away from the Algae.

I've then started a much more regular NPK fertisliser does using the individual Seachem products and ditched the Excel.  I've continued with my Micro ferts via JBL Ferropol.  I removed the phosphate pads from the filter too and cut right back the Vallis which had the algae on.

Added a spray bar to help circulation, the single outflow from filter was not good enough and the power head was good, but some corners the plants were getting battered and the new bunches I put in would never have stayed in place.

I've not yet increased my water changes, still at 20% purely because of containers.  I have another large bucket and two more jerry cans on order to arrive this week to allow a larger water change (45%).

I think that's what I've done.  The light change, the planting and fertilsers all occured two weeks ago, I've left it very much as is since then.  I'm now concerned 6hrs at lower light levels is not enough for the plants.

Oh and the sliding cover has been off for a while now (6months).


----------



## Siege

All sounds good. Aim for a nice ripple on the surface. I’m not sure if you need the powerhead.

water changes is gonna be the next biggest thing you can do. You donot need containers just syphon it out of the window/door.


----------



## Marcus_F

The containers are more to get the water back in as I don't use 100% tap water due to the hardness my area is off the scale and not great for the fish.


----------



## sparkyweasel

Marcus_F said:


> using the individual Seachem products


Which ones?


----------



## sparkyweasel

Marcus_F said:


> I have another large bucket and two more jerry cans on order to arrive this week to allow a larger water change (45%).


That should be a great help.


----------



## Marcus_F

sparkyweasel said:


> Which ones?


Bottle of each of these... 

Nitrogen
Phosphorus 
Potassium


----------



## sparkyweasel

Those and the Ferropol should be OK for ferts.
I hope your new _Egeria _does better than the last batch, but if it doesn't, could you post some pics of it when it starts to struggle? That might give us a clue about the cause of its demise.


----------



## Marcus_F

I didn’t buy any more egeria and hadn’t plan to do so.  It went white, all the leaves and stems drained of colour turning white.  
I was wondering if they melted from Excel as I was using it for a further 3 days after I planted it and then stopped.


----------



## sparkyweasel

Sorry, I misinterpreted your summary. 
I haven't tried Excel with _Egeria_, hopefully some-one who has can advise.
I've only tried it with _Crinums_, they melted overnight, I didn't even get a chance to see if there was any colour change etc. I really shouldn't have tried it on my most expensive plants, what was I thinking?


----------



## rebel

sparkyweasel said:


> I've only tried it with _Crinums_


It's dose dependent I am sure. I dose small amounts daily and my crinum (and everything else) is fine. I don't have Egeria (it's a weed here and is banned). Even vallisneria can be trained to accomodate some glut.


----------



## Marcus_F

My Vallisneria was unaffected by the Excel dosing.  Without Excel am I missing something the tank needs?


----------



## Marcus_F

Lowering the temp to 23C isn’t going well.  Been no lower than 25.5 today with the heat we have.


----------



## Witcher

sparkyweasel said:


> I've only tried it with _Crinums_, they melted overnight


Hey @sparkyweasel I'm really curious on this one, my calamistratum never reacted in negative way to excel/glut. What exactly happened to your crinums?


----------



## sparkyweasel

Witcher said:


> Hey @sparkyweasel I'm really curious on this one, my calamistratum never reacted in negative way to excel/glut. What exactly happened to your crinums?


They were _C. calamistratum_ too. I dosed Excel as per the instructions one evening, the next morning there were a few wisps of slimy stuff where the leaves had been and the bulbs were soft and mushy. I left the bulbs in case they could recover, but they didn't.
It's interesting that yours aren't affected. Maybe it depends on the water conditions, possibly the glut reacts differently in different water. Some people find their Vallis tolerates glut perfectly well, although so many report that theirs doesn't.
If I remember right mine were in my tapwater, so 16°DH, pH7.6 and at 24°C.


----------



## Marcus_F

Just seen on all my new plants, there is a 1mm edge of brown on every leaf.  Is this quite normal?  I'm aware that often current leaves and growth are shocked when submerged and it's new plant growth that's more important but wondering if there is something up.


----------



## Hufsa

1 mm brown edge on leaves sounds a lot like diatoms


----------



## Marcus_F

I’ve had diatoms, it doesn’t look like it just yet but will keep an eye on it.  It’s basically every leaf, on every new plant and all perfect edge.  It looks like it’s drawn on, so perfectly on all leaves.


----------



## Witcher

If it looks like some edges of my crypt and r. indica it's a very early stage of K deficiency - mine turned to necrosis on the edges, yours are brown (late stage of chlorosis) but may turn to black very soon. I'd just up the K by 20% or so (if you have very sensitive plants like rotala macrandra or ludwigia verticillata you could also slightly up your Mg and Ca to avoid burning of the tips). The next stage will be perforation of leaves - tiny holes with yellow edges, which later turn to bronze-ish and then black.


----------



## Marcus_F

Updates with some photos.  Looks like more brown now rather than edges....


----------



## Witcher

This actually look like some form of diatoms to me (especially on sessiflora) plus I think your anubias is showing signs of Mg deficiency.


----------



## Witcher

sparkyweasel said:


> They were _C. calamistratum_ too. I dosed Excel as per the instructions one evening, the next morning there were a few wisps of slimy stuff where the leaves had been and the bulbs were soft and mushy. I left the bulbs in case they could recover, but they didn't.
> It's interesting that yours aren't affected. Maybe it depends on the water conditions, possibly the glut reacts differently in different water. Some people find their Vallis tolerates glut perfectly well, although so many report that theirs doesn't.
> If I remember right mine were in my tapwater, so 16°DH, pH7.6 and at 24°C.


Fact is that I keep my calamistratum in approx 5dGH so that may be the case (ph between 6.3-7 and 24C). My corkscrew vallis (Tortifolia) melted completely in these conditions and is an ex-vallis now.


----------



## Nick72

Looks like multiple issues to me.

Firstly the onset of diatoms.  Which I consider to be the main issue.

A little green filament algae, not enough to worry about.

Possible slight Nitrogen deficiency, but hard to confirm.

And in the last picture, the round leaf plant does look like it's had some Magnesium deficiency, also I don't know what the white dots are on the leaves of this plant.  Looks more like something dropping onto the leaves rather than CO2 deficiency.


----------



## Marcus_F

Witcher said:


> This actually look like some form of diatoms to me (especially on sessiflora) plus I think your anubias is showing signs of Mg deficiency.



Yeah Diatoms have been around for months and months and can’t fix it.  Anubias has only been in the tank a week.  How do you compensate for Mg?


----------



## Marcus_F

Nick72 said:


> Looks like multiple issues to me.
> 
> Firstly the onset of diatoms.  Which I consider to be the main issue.
> 
> A little green filament algae, not enough to worry about.
> 
> Possible slight Nitrogen deficiency, but hard to confirm.
> 
> And in the last picture, the round leaf plant does look like it's had some Magnesium deficiency, also I don't know what the white dots are on the leaves of this plant.  Looks more like something dropping onto the leaves rather than CO2 deficiency.



thanks for the reply.  So fairly sure Diatoms is right, it’s on my gravel, some other plant leaves and I just wipe away but would be lovely to finally get rid.

I can’t see the white dots?  Could it be the bad photo, reflection or my snail eggs?


----------



## hypnogogia

Marcus_F said:


> How do you compensate for Mg?


What fertiliser do you use?


----------



## Marcus_F

hypnogogia said:


> What fertiliser do you use?



JBL Ferropol 40ml at water change and 20ml mid week in addition to the NPK


----------



## Witcher

Marcus_F said:


> Yeah Diatoms have been around for months and months and can’t fix it.  Anubias has only been in the tank a week.  How do you compensate for Mg?


Usually 5ppm weekly for whole tank should help - you can use epsom salts (MgSO4) - it's quite cheap and widely available.


----------



## Nick72

Marcus_F said:


> thanks for the reply.  So fairly sure Diatoms is right, it’s on my gravel, some other plant leaves and I just wipe away but would be lovely to finally get rid.
> 
> I can’t see the white dots?  Could it be the bad photo, reflection or my snail eggs?




Add 1 teaspoons of Epsom Salts per 40 litres of water for Mg.   It's really good for the fish as well.

We've got similar issues.  I've had diatoms for coming on two months now.

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/the-friday-report-50g-planted.60849/

Nerite snails, BN Pleco, Panda Garra can all help with diatoms.

Yes, could well be snail eggs, although they look more spread out and not clustered as I'd expect for snails.

If it's not something physical on the leaves it could be a sign of CO2 deficiency.

Last photo, look at the leaf on the far left, and the one in the centre pointing straight up.


----------



## Marcus_F

Just had a look and it’s a bit of debris just floating, leaf is fine.

will look into salts now


----------



## Marcus_F

Is it any product with Epsom Salts?

like this https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00QISVGJC/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_3l09Eb3F36DY6


----------



## hypnogogia

Marcus_F said:


> JBL Ferropol 40ml at water change and 20ml mid week in addition to the NPK


Ok, so Ferropol is iron I think and then the NPK, so you are not adding any magnesium.  Have a look at your water suppliers water report to see how much magnesium is in your tap water.  If it’s low, you will need to add as a salt.  Look for MgSO4 (Epsom salt). Be careful of looking for Epsom salts as some of the ones on places such as amazon have other additives for bath use. I use this https://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/fertilisers/magnesium-sulphate.html


----------



## Marcus_F

Just checked Ferropol and yeah no magnesium, I thought it was a complete micro nutrient product.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,





Marcus_F said:


> ike this https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00QISVGJC/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_3l09Eb3F36DY6


That one is fine it says 100% magnesium sulphate.


hypnogogia said:


> Be careful of looking for Epsom salts as some of the ones on places such as amazon have other additives for bath use.


My daughter bought some (for its intended use) and it contained magnesium carbonate as well as magnesium sulphate.

cheers Darrel


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @Marcus_F


Marcus_F said:


> So fairly sure Diatoms is right, it’s on my gravel, some other plant leaves and I just wipe away but would be lovely to finally get rid.



Diatom growth is sometimes the result of excessive silicate in the water. I've just re-visited this subject as a result of the problem you are having. I dug into the chemistry of this a bit deeper than the last time someone was reporting diatom problems. It seems that silicon dioxide (e.g.sand) _can_ slowly dissolve in water to form something called orthosilicic acid. This is where Wikipedia has some useful information:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthosilicic_acid

My guess is that this is a form of silicon dioxide that diatoms can use. As Wikipedia says "A unique feature of diatom anatomy is that they are surrounded by a cell wall made of silica (hydrated silicon dioxide), called a frustule". There is a test kit that can measure silicon dioxide (SiO2) as follows:

https://www.jbl.de/en/products/detail/8664/jbl-proaquatest-sio2-silicate

Or, you could save yourself yet another purchase by trying to get this information from your water company. I checked my water company's report for 2019 and - zilch! But, you could email your water company asking about the silica, silicon (dioxide) or (ortho) silicic acid.

Because this may be relevant, what is the pH of your tap and aquarium water?

JPC


----------



## Geoffrey Rea

Geoffrey Rea said:


> You could just add Seachem flourish to the set for your micro nutrients. It also has calcium and magnesium in as well. Tenner for a bottle. Done.


----------



## Marcus_F

Thanks all,  @jaypeecee  PH is 8.2.  The diatoms have been around for a while now, some 6months I reckon without really being able to get to the bottom of it.  I think the test kit would be a good thing albeit yet another purchase but worth it I think.  I tried adding a filter (well looked for a filter media) to reduce silicates but couldn't find anything.  I think maybe Diatoms don't like light either, so increase of light power could work.  

I arrived home from fish shop today (first time in months) with 5 more shrimp (up to 7 now) and two dwarf catfish to help with the algae.  I've no real issues with having algae, not like I need a 100% clean tank, just dont' want it taking over ther the tank or stopping plant growth.  

@Geoffrey Rea I'll look at that, now I know more about fertiliser instead of having odd bottles all over, I'm going to look for one more complete options.


----------



## Marcus_F

Nothing in my water report although it's quite a complicate read.

Can't see any value for Silicate.  Does tell me their PH is an interesting read.

Hydrogen Ion (pH) pH value 

PCV: 6.5-9.5
Min: 6.9
Mean: 7.2
Max: 7.9

When I test out the tap it reads as 7.6 I think but when oxygenated it raises to 8.2 which the tank reads also.

Found this on water supply guess it's Mg?

Manganese µgMn/l 

PCV: 50
 Min: <1.0 
Mean: <1.0
Max: <1.0 

Not sure what the PCV figure is in relation to the water supply, I'm guessing you should look at the Mean value for what comes out the tap?


----------



## jaypeecee

Marcus_F said:


> Found this on water supply guess it's Mg?
> 
> Manganese µgMn/l



Mg = magnesium

Mn = manganese

JPC


----------



## Marcus_F

Yeah no Mg relating to Magnesium.  Think the other Mg values are for milligram or something not the chemical element.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





jaypeecee said:


> It seems that silicon dioxide (e.g.sand) _can_ slowly dissolve in water to form something called orthosilicic acid. This is where Wikipedia has some useful information:


I don't think it  says that sand or diatom frustules etc are even minimally soluble at ambient temperatures or pressures. It says, for *amorphous* silica 





> .....This equates to a maximum solubility of about 2 mmol L−1 at ambient temperatures..........


but I think we would be dealing with crystalline silicon dioxide and that that is insoluble. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## sparkyweasel

Marcus_F said:


> I tried adding a filter (well looked for a filter media) to reduce silicates but couldn't find anything.


I don't think anything would reduce silicates to below the level that diatoms can utilise, it's in the parts-per-billion range.
While the test kit might tell you how much is in your water, it doesn't really help it you can't do anything about it.
And do you need to do anything about the silicate level? Probably not. Diatoms do need silicates, but to construe that silicates _cause _diatoms is just marketing.


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @sparkyweasel 


sparkyweasel said:


> And do you need to do anything about the silicate level? Probably not. Diatoms do need silicates, but to construe that silicates _cause _diatoms is just marketing.



Since diatoms need silicate, it follows that reducing the availability of silicate may reduce/eliminate the development of diatoms. Just like shrimp and calcium. Take away the latter and shrimp wouldn't live very long.

JPC


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





jaypeecee said:


> Since diatoms need silicate, it follows that reducing the availability of silicate may reduce/eliminate the development of diatoms.


 That is correct, but only relevant if you can get the concentration below *two micro-molar orthosilicic acid in solution, *one you are  below that level it will begin to limit diatom abundance. 





sparkyweasel said:


> Diatoms do need silicates, but to construe that silicates _cause _diatoms is just marketing.


Yes that is the one. It is back to the "fixed nitrogen" and "nitrogen gas" difference. 

<"Crystalline silicon dioxide isn't soluble">, it doesn't matter how much sand etc you in the tank, it doesn't go into solution.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Marcus_F

All very helpful info.  All I can read is you get brown algae during cycling, well think 9months in my tank should be cycled and still see co start brown algae on substrate and leaves.  I can rub it off with my thumb.  
Is there a way to help reduce it?


----------



## Nick72

Marcus_F said:


> All very helpful info.  All I can read is you get brown algae during cycling, well think 9months in my tank should be cycled and still see co start brown algae on substrate and leaves.  I can rub it off with my thumb.
> Is there a way to help reduce it?



Two weeks ago I took 80% of my plants out of the tank and washed them by hand.  The diatoms come off easily, but the plants suffered from the stress of removal.

Two weeks later and they are all covered in diatoms again.

A gravel vac will also help for a week or two, but it's no long term solution.

I'm still hoping mine will clear up with time, but you've waited 9 months already - so I really don't know.

Do you have any snails, sucker fish, etc..?


----------



## Marcus_F

Nick72 said:


> Do you have any snails, sucker fish, etc..?



I have 5 snails who do a great job on glass and stones, not so much the plants. I just got two dwarf catfish who only eat algae so hopefully they will help with leaves. I have 7 shrimp now too who like the wood and my heater.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Marcus_F said:


> I have 5 snails who do a great job on glass and stones


<"Bladder (_Physella acuta_)"> or <"Ramshorn (_Planorbella duryi_)"> snails are more likely to graze diatoms from plants. They both are fairly prolific breeders, but won't eat live plants.

cheers Darrel


----------



## hypnogogia

Marcus_F said:


> Yeah no Mg relating to Magnesium. Think the other Mg values are for milligram or something not the chemical element.


Perhaps you could provide a link to the water report, or postcode and water utility so that we can check what it says.


----------



## sparkyweasel

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @sparkyweasel
> 
> 
> Since diatoms need silicate, it follows that reducing the availability of silicate may reduce/eliminate the development of diatoms. Just like shrimp and calcium. Take away the latter and shrimp wouldn't live very long.
> 
> JPC


True, but calcium doesn't _cause _shrimps.


----------



## Marcus_F

hypnogogia said:


> Perhaps you could provide a link to the water report, or postcode and water utility so that we can check what it says.


Might be easier yeah, here it is https://www.affinitywater.co.uk/docs/water-quality/AF019.pdf


----------



## Marcus_F

I will say there is one thing which is confusing me.  Nitrate, I've always been told to keep it to below 20ppm in the tank water and we should keep it low to avoid Algae yet I'm dosing the tank with Nitrate?  Is it the same chemical, am I right to be adding more as part of the NPK?


----------



## hypnogogia

Marcus_F said:


> Might be easier yeah, here it is


Interestingly, no indication of magnesium, but it does say that it co tributes to alkalinity. My water report shows actual magnesium in ppm.


----------



## hypnogogia

Marcus_F said:


> I will say there is one thing which is confusing me.  Nitrate, I've always been told to keep it to below 20ppm in the tank water and we should keep it low to avoid Algae yet I'm dosing the tank with Nitrate?  Is it the same chemical, am I right to be adding more as part of the NPK?


The idea is that you dose the same (or slightly more) than the plants take up., and that with regular 50% water changes you keep it to safe levels.  In a heavily planted tank, the plants are the best way to reduce nitrate.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,





Marcus_F said:


> I've always been told to keep it to below 20ppm in the tank water and we should keep it low to avoid Algae yet I'm dosing the tank with Nitrate? Is it the same chemical, am I right to be adding more as part of the NPK?


Have a look at <"A simple continuous......"> and <"Nitrates">.





hypnogogia said:


> Interestingly, no indication of magnesium


They aren't obliged to report it, because it doesn't have a regulatory limit. The same applies to phosphorus (P), no regulatory limit, so no chance of the water company having breached the regulatory limit.

There won't be much magnesium in the water <"for geological reasons">. The water report is quite interesting, it looks like a blended supply with some coming via nitrate stripper (or even possibly via desalination). The bulk of the water will come from the chalk aquifer, which accounts for the calcium and hardness values. 

It is an area of England with severe water shortage issues. Cambridge gets about as much rain-fall as Jerusalem, and because southern East Anglia combines arable agriculture with a realtively dense population most of the aquifers and rivers are eutrophic. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Witcher

Marcus_F said:


> I've always been told to keep it to below 20ppm in the tank water and we should keep it low to avoid Algae yet I'm dosing the tank with Nitrate?


I think that one of the biggest problem among plant keepers is that they quite often tell you definite values: "You must keep your nitrates below 20ppm", "You can't use more than 2ppm PO4", "You must keep your co2 at 30ppm" etc etc. Thing is that every single planted tank is completely different from each other and levels of nutrients should be set according to what you have in your tank - plant mass, alkalinity, demands of particular plants for particular nutrients, light and other things.

As an example: I keep my tank (or tanks) with rather big plant mass - approx 70-80% of the tank volume, after massive trim it still looks like it's filled to approx 50%. I don't supply CO2 (only via glut/organic acids), but have strong light - just like in typical high tech. By simply testing I know that 7-9ppm of NO3 weekly is about perfect for typically green plants when my tank is full to the level when I can't even see some of them, completely obstructed by others (for example I only know that I have bolbitis, but very rarely see it). Now - what would happen if I'd introduce constant supply of CO2 at let's say 30ppm? Demand for NO3 (and other nutrients) would increase dramatically and I doubt if 30ppm of NO3 would be enough to not see any N deficiencies in few days - and very likely many of the plants will be covered with hair algae. So that's it - you can use what other people say as a rough guideline but in the end levels of nutrients in your tank will be completely different because of completely different conditions.


----------



## jaypeecee

sparkyweasel said:


> True, but calcium doesn't _cause _shrimps.



And I was thinking it did. Back to school for me! 

JPC


----------



## jaypeecee

dw1305 said:


> It is an area of England with severe water shortage issues. Cambridge gets about as much rain-fall as Jerusalem, and because southern East Anglia combines arable agriculture with a realtively dense population most of the aquifers and rivers are eutrophic.



Very interesting.

JPC


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @dw1305


dw1305 said:


> That is correct, but only relevant if you can get the concentration below *two micro-molar orthosilicic acid in solution, *one you are below that level it will begin to limit diatom abundance.



So, that's about 0.2 ppm, if my calculation is correct. I think it may be possible to get below this figure and I believe I have an article discussing this. Will try to find it.

JPC


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi Folks,


jaypeecee said:


> So, that's about 0.2* ppm, if my calculation is correct. I think it may be possible to get below this figure and I believe I have an article discussing this.



This is the article I had in mind but I was mistaken in thinking that it advised on silicate reduction. It does, however, have some other information that may be of interest:

https://www.aquaculturealliance.org/advocate/silicon-diatoms-in-aquaculture/

*orthosilicic acid/SiO2

JPC


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,
It is an interesting article and certainly has some suggestions that ammonia favours the growth of cyanobacteria over diatoms.

Probably the most relevant bit to this discussion is:





> Use of sodium nitrate and sodium silicate fertilizers at a 1:1 nitrogen:silicon ratio  .........and containing 0.21 mg/L silica was shown to be quite effective in increasing both the abundance of diatoms and their proportion of the total phytoplankton. Of course, in this situation, the concentration of silica was very low – normal seawater contains 6.4 mg/L silica. Diatoms grow quite well at the silica concentration in seawater, and it is *not known how low the silica concentration must fall before diatom growth is negatively affected.*


 The real problem is that the the author has to use the SiO2 content of the water as a proxy for the orthosilicic  acid (H4SiO4) content, without knowing the empirical relationship between the conversion of SiO2 to H4SiO4.





> ........For example, silicon dioxide reacts in water to form silicic acid, a weak acid that is largely un-ionized within the pH range of most natural waters. When calcium silicate reacts with carbon dioxide in water, the resulting dissolved substances are calcium ions, bicarbonate ions (alkalinity) and silicic acid. .................Silicon concentrations in natural waters typically are reported in terms of SiO2 and usually range from 5 to 25 mg/L in freshwater bodies..... A silica concentration can be converted to silicon concentration by multiplying by the factor 0.467, the proportion of silicon in SiO2.



Because diatoms are pretty <"much universal in liquid water"> they have to be incredibly efficient silicon uptake. 





> ..........Diatoms are ubiquitous in both marine and freshwater environments, contributing up to 25% of the world's primary productivity and forming the basis of many aquatic food webs......


cheers Darrel


----------



## Marcus_F

Could high Nitrates be a cause of Diatoms which won't go away then?

I haven't tested my tanks Nitrate in a while because this place suggested the inaccuracy of the results.  I guess it's better than nothing and to be fair as with any test you do in the world, even if it's inaccurate numbers, as long as it's consistently inaccurate you can monitor for increases or decreases.  It's the same with car tyres, a long of pressure readers will give different values but if you use the same one, it's all relative to your original and first control test.  If that you follow me  

Of course random fluctuations caused by a bad test would be troublesome for my theory.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Marcus_F said:


> Could high Nitrates be a cause of Diatoms which won't go away then?


It is back to the <"ubiquity of diatoms">, there is an enormous assemblage of species that changes along environmental gradients.

Have a look at the <"Lenntech page on eutrophication">, which shows how the cyanobacterial and algal assemblages are affected by elevated levels of nitrogen and phosphorus. I don't look on <"algae and plants as really any different">.

Because diatoms have a persistent "skeleton" (frustule) they can be used in <"biotic indices">. Their persistence allows them to both indicate present, and former, conditions by differences in their relative abundance in the water column and the sediment.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Nick72

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, It is back to the <"ubiquity of diatoms">, there is an enormous assemblage of species that changes along environmental gradients.
> 
> Have a look at the <"Lenntech page on eutrophication">, which shows how the cyanobacterial and algal assemblages are affected by elevated levels of nitrogen and phosphorus. I don't look on <"algae and plants as really any different">.
> 
> Because diatoms have a persistent "skeleton" (frustule) they can be used in <"biotic indices">. Their persistence allows them to both indicate present, and former, conditions by differences in their relative abundance in the water column and the sediment.
> 
> cheers Darrel




Err.. So was that yes or no then?


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Nick72 said:


> So was that yes or no then?


Probably a bit of both. It is back to <"shades of grey"> unfortunately. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Nick72

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, Probably a bit of both. It is back to <"shades of grey"> unfortunately.
> 
> cheers Darrel




OK.

I also recently read that higher Nitrate levels (seemed to be suggesting as little as 40ppm) impede Cyanobacteria.   Any truth in that one as far as you know?


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Nick72 said:


> impede Cyanobacteria. Any truth in that one as far as you know?


I've never really suffered from them and I will have low NO3 values in the tanks.  I would say I'm sceptical, but I don't have any practical experience. As with diatoms there are different cyanobacterial assemblages that are adapted to oligotrophic and eutrophic conditions.

I think one reason why this might be true, for some species, is they are nitrogen fixing or "diazotropic", so may be at a competitive advantage when NO3 levels are low.

Have a look at @jaypeecee thread <"on the cyanobacteria in his aquarium">. He identified _Oscillatoria _spp,_. _which are both <"non-diazotropic".> and associated with <"high nutrient levels">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi Folks,


jaypeecee said:


> This is the article I had in mind but I was mistaken in thinking that it advised on silicate reduction.



Perhaps this is what I'd remembered:

"There is evidence that nitrogen:silicon ratios above 3:1 lessen the growth rate of diatoms".

JPC


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @Marcus_F 


Marcus_F said:


> I haven't tested my tanks Nitrate in a while because this place suggested the inaccuracy of the results.



The major unknown for me with nitrate test kits (and, perhaps, others) is the extent to which other ions in the aquarium water interfere with the test method. There are very few resources available on the accuracy of test kits. The one below is one I discovered a while ago:

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._ASSESSING_THE_RELIABILITY_OF_WATER-TEST_KITS

JPC


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





jaypeecee said:


> Perhaps this is what I'd remembered:
> 
> "There is evidence that nitrogen:silicon ratios above 3:1 lessen the growth rate of diatoms".


I think that was a competition effect, because the diatoms were then out-competed by cyanobacteria and green algae, so it is really _out of the frying pan and into the fire_.

In terms of lakes, low nutrient ("oligotrophic") lakes  have much less phytoplankton biomass, but a higher proportion of diatoms within that assemblage.

cheers Darrel


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi Folks,

And, the above report uses almost exclusively _test strips_. Say no more! (As Eric Idle* would have said)! 

@Marcus_F ---- FYI, I use the JBL Nitrate Test (liquid reagents)

* _Monty Python_ sketch

JPC


----------



## Marcus_F

I can see that the plants I do have are growing so that's a good sign however, so is the green hair algae on the new leaves and the brown algae is still a go.  I need to keep taking photos to confirm but I think I'm seeing more tufts of BBA on the wood than before.


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @Marcus_F

In order to get an update, I have a few questions - if that's OK:

1 Did you decide to test the nitrate in your tank? If so, what was the result and which test kit did you use?

2 Did you decide to try the JBL SiO2 Test Kit? If so, what was the result?

3 Did you decide to email your water company about silicate?

4 Are you using a source of carbon for your plants? If so, which product are you using?

5 Do you have any thoughts as to how you'd like to move forward from here?

JPC


----------



## Marcus_F

Hi,

I'll answer these below.

1) I used the API liquid test on Nitrate, it came out at either 10ppm or 20ppm the difference between the two colours is minimal so I can never tell.  It's not yellow so it's not 5ppm and not red so not yet 40ppm.

2) The JBL SiO2 kit is on order, waiting for delivery

3) I've not yet, but I will do so shortly.

4) No source of carbon now, I was using Seachem Excel but I don't know.  That's been stopped for about 2 weeks.

5) My thoughts are I like all the plants I have, they seem to be growing ok.  The stem plants have never worked so I'll avoid them in favour of bushes (java fern etc.)  Happy with what I have if it grows healthy and can combat the algae.  

I've potentially been slack with the filter media changes, as my concentration has always been on the fish I've only ever rinsed the sponges every two months and not replaced.  As Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate were all good levels I thought the filter was on top form.  I've order a lot of new media to start doing gradual swaps to get cleaner sponges in there.  I have swapped out some of the polishing pads, but not the sponges that came with the Fluval filter.

Could poor media cleaning be the cause of all this algae?


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @Marcus_F 


Marcus_F said:


> Could poor media cleaning be the cause of all this algae?



Yes, it will likely contribute to the growth of algae. Your phosphate level may be high and dirty media increases dissolved organics in the water.

JPC


----------



## Marcus_F

I thought I was dosing phosphate in phosphorus?

Going to keep up with media cleaning and changes, got Amazon all setup for auto delivery now too.


----------



## jaypeecee

Marcus_F said:


> I thought I was dosing phosphate in phosphorus?



I haven't been watching this thread closely. You will recall I said that I would take a back seat. So, what is the current phosphate level in your tank? In what form are you dosing phosphorus?

JPC


----------



## Marcus_F

My phosphate is low, I think 0.25 rings a bell but would need to test again to be sure.

I’m dosing NPK as per basic instructions on Seachem bottles


----------



## Marcus_F

Phosphate reading of tank is either 0, 0.25 or 0.5ppm based on what shade of green my eyes can pick up  I do hate colour cards.  I reckon it's between 0.25 and 0.5 and 6ml of phosphate was dosed this morning (just AFTER the test).


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @Marcus_F 


Marcus_F said:


> Phosphate reading of tank is either 0, 0.25 or 0.5ppm based on what shade of green my eyes can pick up  I do hate colour cards. I reckon it's between 0.25 and 0.5 and 6ml of phosphate was dosed this morning (just AFTER the test).



Your phosphate reading looks good. Just remind me which test kit you are using. I think the next thing to do is to remove any organic waste (technically known as 'crud'!) from your filter media.

Please keep us posted.

JPC


----------



## Marcus_F

I used the API liquid kit for Phosphate test, always turn to them except the JBL kit for SiO2 I'm still waiting on.


----------



## Marcus_F

Update time.... So the green hair algae stuff seems to have left the tank.  Not sure if it's because i'm getting the right balance of the dwarf catfish I added have had a good feast.  Plants all seem to be growing, don't have any that I'm concerned about other than the standard non bushy  *sessiliflora* .  It's still got way too much space between each set of leaves.  Still getting new growth from the base though so not all lost.

The brown slime algae still persists, I did the SiO2 test on my tank water only and it was off the chart.  Haven't done my tap water but can't imagine it's going to be less.  Will do that today to at least eradicate it something in my tank causing a high reading.  

The brown algae is a bother in that my plants don't look green and bright but it's not doing too much harm and the snails, shrimp and catfish like to feast on it.  What to me looks like BBA on my wood is more pronounced now, I'm ok with it at the moment, it's quite natural looking but do have to make sure it doesn't take hold.

Lights are at 40% each on whites, red 25% and blue 3% and have recently increased to 7hrs a day without any noticeable difference.  

Have some photos on my phone which I'll upload on next post shortly to show the progress.  Couple of colours on plants I'd like an opinion on...


----------



## Marcus_F

This Congo fern has some dark patches? Been in the tank on a rock for about 2 weeks now.

Wood showing what I think is BBA....






This is front view of current status.


----------



## Nick72

I'd say that's definitely a mild case of BBA on your wood.

You'd better get on top of it before it starts effecting the plants.

People say that dosing Excel every day is good at combating BBA, they also say spot dosing Excel works.

I do daily Excel dosing, but don't get BBA - so can't say much more on that.


----------



## Marcus_F

Would it harm some plants though like the Java Fern or water wysteria I have?


----------



## Nick72

Marcus_F said:


> Would it harm some plants though like the Java Fern or water wysteria I have?



The BBA or Excel?

Yes BBA can spread to plants and it would do then harm.  It's much harder to clear a tank of BBA once it spreads to plants.


I've never heard of Java Fern or Wysteria being sensitive to Excel, but I also don't keep them.


----------



## Marcus_F

Yeah I was referring to the Excel.

I've got some but have stopped.  Will wait out for more responses and then start to use.  I'd use the direct application approach and water changes.  Cant get all wood out the water but can get to a fair bit.


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @Marcus_F


Marcus_F said:


> The brown slime algae still persists, I did the SiO2 test on my tank water only and it was off the chart. Haven't done my tap water but can't imagine it's going to be less. Will do that today to at least eradicate it something in my tank causing a high reading.



What's the latest on the brown slime algae and SiO2?

JPC


----------



## Marcus_F

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Marcus_F
> 
> 
> What's the latest on the brown slime algae and SiO2?
> 
> JPC



All still there, non sign of any let up.  New leaves form, stay green for a day or two and then slowly their edges get covered.  Can visually see plants growing now too.  BBA is under control, it's a nice look on the wood and isn't spreading or gaining a strong hold.


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## jaypeecee

Hi @Marcus_F


Marcus_F said:


> ...I did the SiO2 test on my tank water only and it was off the chart. Haven't done my tap water but can't imagine it's going to be less. Will do that today to at least eradicate it something in my tank causing a high reading.



Did you test your tap water for SiO2? What was your tank water reading?

JPC


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## jaypeecee

Hi @Marcus_F 

Please remind me what substrate material you are using. There is a possibility that silicate is leaching from your substrate. If your tap water silicate reading is less than the tank water silicate reading, then something in your tank is causing this. And, your substrate would be the obvious culprit. If the readings are t'other way around, then it's time to think again.

Personally, I don't test for SiO2 as I don't normally use tap water.

JPC


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## jaypeecee

Hi @Marcus_F 

I thought of one other possibility for a source of SiO2 - fish food. It may be used as a grinding aid in the preparation of fish meal, a common component of many processed fish foods.

JPC


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## rebel

Is the SiO2 particularly soluble in water?


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## jaypeecee

Hi @rebel 


rebel said:


> Is the SiO2 particularly soluble in water?



The following is a company that knows a thing or two about water. Their web site is a great resource for all manner of water-related information. Here goes:

https://www.lenntech.com/periodic/water/silicon/silicon-and-water.htm

And, here's a good place to start:

"Rivers generally contain 4 ppm silicon. Silicon is usually not ionized when dissolved; it is present as ortho silicic acid (H4SiO4 or Si(OH)4). These compounds are the result of slow dissolution of silica in water. Rivers transport large amounts of silicon to sea. Most likely, less than 20% of dissolved silicon is removed from rivers by means of biological or chemical transformation processes".

Hope this helps.

JPC


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## Marcus_F

Hi,

So update, the plants are growing it seems, getting more and more crowded which is nice.  Although I'm seeing that each water change I'm having to remove one or two yellow leaves from my Cryptocoryne Becketti 'Petchii' can't think I've seen that on such a regular basis.  Will post up some photo's shortly.

The brown algae persists and I'm managing the BBA.

Tested my tap water for SiO2 and it's off the scale as is the tank so it does appear to be from the water and even a 50/50 tap and RO isn't enough to reduce it.   The substrate I have Caribsea Eco Complete.


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## Marcus_F




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## jaypeecee

Hi @Marcus_F


Marcus_F said:


> Tested my tap water for SiO2 and it's off the scale as is the tank so it does appear to be from the water and even a 50/50 tap and RO isn't enough to reduce it.



OK, that's pretty conclusive, isn't it? But, never having found myself in this situation, I'm unsure of your best course of action. As always, opinions on the internet are divided. And, it's not easy to get to the facts that matter. If you're already using RO water, have you ever considered switching to remineralized RO water thus eliminating tap water completely?

JPC


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## Marcus_F

I haven’t purely based on having that amount of RO water always around the house to complete changes.  At 50% it’s already a trip every 3 weeks and a boot full of water containers 4 x 25litres.
I’ve ordered the JBL silicate remover, see what happens when I add that to my filter.


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Marcus_F said:


> JBL silicate remover


If it is the one that contains an <"iron compound">? It will remove the orthophosphate (PO4---) ions from the water column as well. Whether that effects plant growth will depend on what happens in the substrate, silicon isn't essential for plant growth, but phosphorus is a macro-nutrient.    

Could you try Hornwort (_Ceratophyllum demersum_) in the tank? It has a silicified "skeleton". I don't tend to get Diatoms, and I have Hornwort in my tanks (and Ramshorn snails)  but whether they make the difference I really don't know. Diatoms are pretty much universal where ever there is liquid water and light (including on moss, on glaciers, in the soil etc.)

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee

Hi @dw1305 


dw1305 said:


> Could you try Hornwort (_Ceratophyllum demersum_) in the tank? It has a silicified "skeleton".



So, does that mean that Hornwort can absorb orthosilicic acid to construct its skeleton? If so, that would be a great way of combatting diatoms.

JPC


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## Marcus_F

If it absorbs PO4 can I not just up my dosing or does it remove instantly?


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Marcus_F said:


> If it absorbs PO4 can I not just up my dosing or does it remove instantly?


I don't actually know. I've come upon phosphate stripping with iron III chloride as part of my day job.

The active ingredients are  iron hydroxides, and they are used in water treatment to remove arsenic from aquifer water. I've just read the abstract for <"Combined effects of anions on arsenic removal by iron hydroxides"> and that says 





> The apparent adsorption constants indicated that the affinity of the anions for iron hydroxide sites decreased in the following order arsenate > phosphate> arsenite> silicate >bicarbonate.


So it looks like it is PO4--- ion first.

cheers Darrel


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





jaypeecee said:


> So, does that mean that Hornwort can absorb orthosilicic acid to construct its skeleton?


I couldn't find out, but I assume it does. Whether it suppresses Diatom growth would be another question, this one <"Influence of _Ceratophyllum demersum_ L. on phytoplankton structure in a shallow eutrophic lake"> says it does.





> Additionally, _Ceratophyllum demersum_ was found to inhibit diatom development, which is probably connected with the secretion of allelopathic substances by this plant. The aim of the current study was to analyze the influence of_ Ceratophyllum demersum _L. on the structure of phytoplankton in a shallow, eutrophic lake.


<"Silica uptake in aquatic and wetland macrophytes: a strategic choice between silica, lignin and cellulose?"> Looked at a range of wetland plants and _Ceratophyllum demersum_ was the highest accumulator of silica, even more than for aquatic grasses. 

cheers Darrel


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## dw1305

Hi all, 
Last one for a while. <"Silica Storage, Fluxes, and Nutrient Stoichiometry in Different Benthic Primary Producer Communities in the Littoral Zone of a Deep Subalpine Lake (Lake Iseo, Italy)"> says 





> Benthic vegetation at the land-water interface is recognized as a filter for silica fluxes,
> which represents an important but under-investigated subject. This paper aims to analyze stocks and fluxes of biogenic (BSi) and dissolved (DSi) silica in relation to nitrogen (N) and phosphorus (P) in the littoral zone of a deep lake. Specifically, we evaluated how different primary producers can influence BSi retention and DSi release. The study was performed in three different benthic communities: submerged aquatic vegetation (SAV) and microphytobenthos (MPB), both occurring in soft bottom sediments, and epilithic macro- and microalgae (EA) on rocky substrates. The main result was that SAV and MPB were a DSi source and a N and P sink with the DSi efflux from SAV nearly three times as much as in MPB patches.


Which I think is suggesting that silicon travels from submerged vegetation to diatoms in the phytoplankton. 

cheers Darrel


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## rebel

I have had diatoms for months after I used clay/sand mix to start a tank. It stayed until I put in about 500 cherry shrimps. Overnight it was all gone! 

Dominance of one algae must mean that the initial conditions favoured it but persistance of it may not mean that much because you could just remove all of it and it might not be able to take hold again. That's what I noted in the above tank. It never returned although most of the shrimp were given away to others after doing their job.


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## jaypeecee

Hi @rebel


rebel said:


> It stayed until I put in about 500 cherry shrimps.



I'm just trying to imagine what an army of 500 cherry shrimps must look like! Did you have to give them their marching orders? 

JPC


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## Marcus_F

I’m also thinking cost of 500  I’m sure it’s about £10 for 5 near me.


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## jaypeecee

Hi @Marcus_F 


Marcus_F said:


> I’m also thinking cost of 500  I’m sure it’s about £10 for 5 near me.



No doubt @rebel will explain but I suspect s/he started with half a dozen and they bred like rabbits cherry shrimps! 🤣

JPC


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## rebel

jaypeecee said:


> an army of 500 cherry shrimps


I will need to check whether I have a picture in photobucket. Someone gave it to me for $20. I had to take a picture with my phone just to count them. After I had given away close to 200, I counted about 600.  So maybe it was even more. I still have shrimp from the same colony.

For BBA it's conceivable to add 30 of those snails that eat it or maybe SAE. I know amanos is high numbers could also eat em.

OT: The person who gave em away said it was a sausage fest but obviously there were some females. He noted that when his tank got to a critical number of shrimp (I assume he had 10k), they would suddenly attack on weak one and eat it. He got distressed and removed alot from his tank but made sure he removed a heap of males...... Apparently reducing population like this helped the 'cannibalism'.


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