# Where plants go to die



## SmallestFrog (1 Dec 2012)

As spotted in a local pet store. Yes, that one. Not surprised honestly, but slightly miffed as postage costs from Aqua Essentials are quite high really, and this Tropica supplied shop is only 2 minutes away.

Thing is... this is not the worst I've seen in my area & surrounding LFS's.

My question to you all is, can any of those be salvaged? I'd guess not?


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## BigTom (1 Dec 2012)

The crypts might be worth a shot - they'd probably melt anyway once planted, the important thing is that the rhizomes are healthy. See if you can get a massive discount.


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## Tim Harrison (1 Dec 2012)

SmallestFrog said:
			
		

> Thing is... this is not the worst I've seen in my area & surrounding LFS's.
> 
> My question to you all is, can any of those be salvaged? I'd guess not?



Ah so you've been to my local branch of Pets "R" Us too, or whatever that well known national chain of pet shops is called   

I persuaded the management to give me a few such pitiful specimens largely out of the very same curiosity that you now mention (I certainly wasn't going to pay for them). I washed the worst of the algae and scum off and placed them in a loving and caring low-energy home. 

They made an astonishing recovery after just a few days - and within a week or two they had grown several new healthy leaves. One turned out to be _Echinodorus 'Reni'_ - it was in such bad shape it was unidentifiable in the shop.

"Give nature half a chance and it will surprise you with its ability to regenerate"


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## Mark Evans (1 Dec 2012)

It is a shame to see things like this. Some of the plants can be saved for sure. Be careful which algae's you might be bringing into a new tank though.

The pets @ home stores should be changing their act pretty soon. There are plenty of things in the pipeline with regards to their plant keeping.


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## Antipofish (1 Dec 2012)

ALso, you can always ask them to order any specific tropica plants in for you.  Ask them to print off their list.  Then have them order in specially and collect the day of delivery before they make it into the coffins.


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## nayr88 (1 Dec 2012)

@antipofish do they do that!!! That would be good as they do 3 for a tenner don't they?


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## Mark Evans (1 Dec 2012)

nayr88 said:
			
		

> @antipofish do they do that!!! That would be good as they do 3 for a tenner don't they?



I'm not sure they do. P@H get special order boxes i think. It's a bit more random than specific orders. You can ask at least.


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## ghostsword (1 Dec 2012)

I got near me a pets at home shop.. Just on the day of delivery and you get amazing bargains..  3 for £10 is a good deal.

They usually get mixed boxes.


___________________________
Luis 
@ghostsword


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## Antipofish (1 Dec 2012)

Mark Evans said:
			
		

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I know for a fact that they do in my P@H as I have done it on several occasions.


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## Antipofish (1 Dec 2012)

nayr88 said:
			
		

> @antipofish do they do that!!! That would be good as they do 3 for a tenner don't they?



Yes mate I have done it on several occasions.  They will substitute stuff on their order for suff you want, or if you order 5 items (they have to order a minimum of 5 pots of whatever) they will do it as a special order.  Its 3 for £11 not £10, but still exceptional value.  And makes you realise how much Tropica stuff SHOULD be priced at.


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## ghostsword (1 Dec 2012)

good tip, so as long as we order 5 items they can bring it in..  perfect.. will check them out when I need to rescape my tank.


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## Ian Holdich (1 Dec 2012)

Yep, I've ordered from p@h before, that said, I do know the manager.


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## Ady34 (1 Dec 2012)

My lfs will order tropica pots in, but like already said they need a min order of 5 for most plants.
I often wonder why pet shops don't invest in a hydroponics set ups instead of the water weir systems we see all the time. Surely you could do it for a similar initial outlay then they could keep the plants tip top and algae free and no doubt get a much better return on their investment whilst at the same time not putting customers off with presentations like the op's images!


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## Mark Evans (1 Dec 2012)

Ady34 said:
			
		

> often wonder why pet shops don't invest in a hydroponics set ups instead of the water weir systems we see all the time



A good idea, but unfortunately, it doesn't always work so well. When plants have been transported, these simple changes in temps etc. often put the plants into shock. I've had plants in a hydroponics system and still lost plenty.

Oddly enough, it's crypts that fair better when moved around like this.


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## SmallestFrog (1 Dec 2012)

I haven't bought anything from that particular P@H but I did get some crypts from the Dunstable P@H. The condition of everything was marginally better, how-ever got lucky as they'd just had a delivery, so most was in good condition. The hemel store is the blackhole of calcutta though.

They aren't the worst though, as stated in my original post. Around here, you are lucky to get an LFS selling any aquatic plants, let alone well kept algae free plants.

Glad to hear things in the pipeline to sort out their plant keeping. Any chance of elaborating, Mark?


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## Ady34 (1 Dec 2012)

Mark Evans said:
			
		

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Surely though they still suffer the fluctuations in temp underwater too during transportation, then they have no access to co2 in most dealers holding tanks    that must give us even less of a chance....but I suppose if we do buy the few 'survivors' from the tanks at least we know they are over the worst?

Seemed like a good idea, but either way there will be those sellers who can do it well and others not so, hell I do all I can to grow the damn things in my tank and struggle!


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## Mark Evans (1 Dec 2012)

SmallestFrog said:
			
		

> Glad to hear things in the pipeline to sort out their plant keeping. Any chance of elaborating, Mark?



I'm not sure of all the details, but things will happen for the better.

 Tropica are passionate beyond belief, and to have a power house like them behind educating stores, this has to be a great combination. 



			
				Ady34 said:
			
		

> Surely though they still suffer the fluctuations in temp underwater too during transportation, then they have no access to co2 in most dealers holding tanks



 Yes mate, true. But from my experience, different plants require different humidity's etc. 

So in an ideal situation, you'd have several different hydroponics units with different ambient temps, humidity and the likes. 

If you think about it, aquatic plants really are a consumer product like no other.


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## Ian Holdich (1 Dec 2012)

I remember east bridgeford pumping loads of c02 into their holding tanks, and not being able to keep up with the stem growth. Loads of stems were thrown out as they were taking over. 

It's a difficult one or sure...


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## Ady34 (1 Dec 2012)

Mark Evans said:
			
		

> Yes mate, true. But from my experience, different plants require different humidity's etc.
> 
> So in an ideal situation, you'd have several different hydroponics units with different ambient temps, humidity and the likes.
> 
> If you think about it, aquatic plants really are a consumer product like no other.



Indeed, and good point about the differing requirements, doubt they would go to the trouble and investment of doing that! Although its good to hear that p@h are willing to improve things with the help of tropica. Seems like at the moment tropica are leading the push for improvements in the hobby which is only a good thing


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## Ady34 (1 Dec 2012)

Ian Holdich said:
			
		

> I remember east bridgeford pumping loads of c02 into their holding tanks, and not being able to keep up with the stem growth. Loads of stems were thrown out as they were taking over.
> 
> It's a difficult one or sure...


I need to take tips from them


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## ghostsword (1 Dec 2012)

So a shop like pets at home can just change the holding tanks a bit, add lots of CO2 (cheap in bulk) and ferts daily, this would ensure that the plants were at their best.. 

I would think that Anubias and ferns would be best to be left of a emersed state, with lots of humidity, right?


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## Ian Holdich (1 Dec 2012)

What happens when they don't get the balance right? That then is a problem in itself.


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## Ady34 (1 Dec 2012)

Ian Holdich said:
			
		

> What happens when they don't get the balance right? That then is a problem in itself.


Very low light.....more margin for error?


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## OllieNZ (1 Dec 2012)

Ian Holdich said:
			
		

> What happens when they don't get the balance right? That then is a problem in itself.


What balance? They have no livestock to worry about so loads of ferts, co2 and minimal light or have I missed somthing?


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## Ian Holdich (1 Dec 2012)

People still run into problems, shed loads of c02 and things still melt, there will still be problems. The key is clean water. Do the holding tanks run from the same system or are they connected to the mains?


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## ghostsword (1 Dec 2012)

I am sure that the plants rather have low light, lots of co2 and nutrients than clean water..  what is clean water anyway?  

I think that if these shops just added some co2, lowered the light intensity, and a daily dose of nutrients, they would see a marked improvement.


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## O'Neil (1 Dec 2012)

I need to take tips from them [/quote]

LOL, your tanks are epic mate.


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## Ian Holdich (2 Dec 2012)

ghostsword said:
			
		

> I am sure that the plants rather have low light, lots of co2 and nutrients than clean water..  what is clean water anyway?
> 
> I think that if these shops just added some co2, lowered the light intensity, and a daily dose of nutrients, they would see a marked improvement.




And not change any water? Because that's what will happen. We all know that not to do regular water changes causes problems when dosing n & p, I'm affraid sling loads of frets and co2 into a holding tank, isn't that easy. Low light or no low light, plants will still produce organic waste that needs to be out of a tank on a regular basis, stocked or not. Look at the EI regime...


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## Antipofish (2 Dec 2012)

Ian Holdich said:
			
		

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I would imagine that if they are going to make changes and start using CO2 and Ferts that the simple task of changing the water would also be part of the plan.  They do water changes in the fish tanks already.  Lets hope so


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## Ian Holdich (2 Dec 2012)

That's why I wondered whether that the holding tanks were connected to the mains, like the main tanks are. It's a piece of cake for em to change water in the main tanks. We have to remember that they are a pets store, not a lfs, they are there to make money and they make the most monies on dry foods. If dosing on a plant holding tank, a weekly water Chang is doable, but will it get done if they get busy? I suppose we'll have to wait and see. My point was that it may be easy for us to drop ferts and c02 into a tank, and change water...this is because we're bothered. For the best will the world a water change is easy for us, but some get lapse.


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## Antipofish (2 Dec 2012)

Ian Holdich said:
			
		

> That's why I wondered whether that the holding tanks were connected to the mains, like the main tanks are. It's a piece of cake for em to change water in the main tanks. We have to remember that they are a pets store, not a lfs, they are there to make money and they make the most monies on dry foods. If dosing on a plant holding tank, a weekly water Chang is doable, but will it get done if they get busy? I suppose we'll have to wait and see. My point was that it may be easy for us to drop ferts and c02 into a tank, and change water...this is because we're bothered. For the best will the world a water change is easy for us, but some get lapse.



I know what you are saying Ian, but also if changes are afoot then that shows *intent*, which I would hope would include changing the water once or twice a week.  If the company as a whole has seen that they are throwing away and wasting so many plants, when in fact if what they had there was as we all have come to expect from places such as AE, AJ and TGM, they would sell more, make more profit and potentially encourage more customers into the lucrative world of "planted aquaria" then we can hope, at least, that a water change is one part of their new regime.  The plant stand in our store is connected to a drain even though it is in the middle of the section.  I don't know for sure if its connected to water as well.  I think it is as I recall being there when it was refilling once and there were no hosepipes draped across the floor.  But even if they are not directly connected, there is nothing to say that it cannot be done "after or before opening hours".  Most branches now seem to have dedicated staff to the aquatics section, and for their part, the Eastbourne crew are pretty enthusiastic.  Time, as you have alluded, is an issue.  But if, as an employee, your management are behind a new initiative, things tend to be carried through.  I would prefer to live in hope than forecast doom and gloom before they have even tried.  After all, if it becomes a successful venture, it will bring quality to many more hobbyists hopefully.


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## Ian Holdich (2 Dec 2012)

I'm not forecasting doom and gloom Chris, far from it, I'm mearly saying to Louis, that they wouldn't get away with not changing water in the holding tanks as your going to see the same as the pics posted by the original poster.


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## ghostsword (2 Dec 2012)

I am sure that the issue is education, not time. Once management sees that they make more money by having good plants, they will surerely make changes. 

Changing the water on the holding tank is much easier than cleaning the rabbits, rats, etc.. so they will do it..  

I am sure a lot of work get's done outside hours, so changing 20% of water a week will be fine. 

The main thing is to get them to understand that they make more money with healthy plants, than with the mess they have now. Money moves mountains..


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## Ian Holdich (2 Dec 2012)

Hopefully they will sort it and I'm sure they will knowing Tropica, as mark stated earlier, I'm sure there is big things coming from them. I just hope that p@h would stick with it if training was given and don't let things slip.


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## tim (2 Dec 2012)

Is adding co2 & ferts a viable solution they already face a 10 hour photoperiod due to the shops opening hours and don't we change water daily on tank startup keep the photoperiod short plus we are trying to grow plants they just need to hold them if they get it wrong wont the algae problems be magnified by technically being in what we would class as a high tech setup if co2 and ferts would be there solution wouldn't they have done it long ago I can only speak for the store near me where they have made changes as in smaller holding tanks and they order less and they have changed lighting over the holding tanks to t5 instead of the MH lights they were using


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## AverageWhiteBloke (2 Dec 2012)

> "Give nature half a chance and it will surprise you with its ability to regenerate"



I have had plants totally disintegrate on me before then found a tiny piece of it left floating about at the top which then turned out to be some of my favourite plants.


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## ghostsword (2 Dec 2012)

tim said:
			
		

> Is adding co2 & ferts a viable solution they already face a 10 hour photoperiod due to the shops opening hours and don't we change water daily on tank startup keep the photoperiod short plus we are trying to grow plants they just need to hold them if they get it wrong wont the algae problems be magnified by technically being in what we would class as a high tech setup if co2 and ferts would be there solution wouldn't they have done it long ago I can only speak for the store near me where they have made changes as in smaller holding tanks and they order less and they have changed lighting over the holding tanks to t5 instead of the MH lights they were using



Tim, they already got the photoperiod, not giving the plants CO2 and ferts is what is creating a mess. CO2 and ferts do not create algae, but the lack of it surely does.  

They get plants weekly, so why not empty the tank weekly as well? 100% water change if needed. Raise the light, or use spot lights instead.. but without giving the plants co2 and ferts, dumping them underwater, when they were all grown emersed, is a bit crazy..


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## Antipofish (2 Dec 2012)

Ian Holdich said:
			
		

> Hopefully they will sort it and I'm sure they will knowing Tropica, as mark stated earlier, I'm sure there is big things coming from them. I just hope that p@h would stick with it if training was given and don't let things slip.



Well I will second that   Its funny, as in the early part of this year I suggested to the section manager in our store that they talk to Tropica and suggest they invest a bit in the plant tanks as a way of bringing their plants "to the masses" at a quality that would encourage people to buy.  I don't for one minute think it was my suggestion that has prompted this, but it is good to hear that things are afoot.  I have had many good plants from them.


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## darren636 (2 Dec 2012)

i suggested months ago that they should use exo terra terrariums. bit of water in the bottom. keep door shut for humidity. bingo. the plants are grown emersed anyway.


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## NatureBoy (2 Dec 2012)

Freshly washed and cut salad in the supermarket has a longer shelf life than plants held at some of these places. A little attention to a plant's needs would go a long way, nothing too major. We're talking about a chain that can barely keep on top of removing dead livestock, let alone addresses the carbon needs of green stuff. 
Sorry for the tone, but I'm skeptical of the business model there, there are better options available to us. I get mail orders from www.livingwatersonline.co.uk, great prices and choice, friendly experts, just better all round than a lucky dip on a Saturday afternoon, past shelves of dog biscuits and sad parrots.


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## ghostsword (2 Dec 2012)

It isn't fair to compare Pets at home with Living Waters, bit like comparing Asda with Morgan cars, ..  

Living Waters is a shop run by a guy that does anything else but aquatic plants and fish, single shop, and Pet's at Home is run as a business with lots and lots of shops. 

Even the guys at Maindenhead get it wrong sometimes, so not surprised that Pet's at Home is strugling. 

I am sure that they are on the right path, and if they have Tropica's help and advice, then they will suceed surely.


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## tim (2 Dec 2012)

ghostsword said:
			
		

> Tim, they already got the photoperiod, not giving the plants CO2 and ferts is what is creating a mess. CO2 and ferts do not create algae, but the lack of it surely does.
> 
> They get plants weekly, so why not empty the tank weekly as well? 100% water change if needed. Raise the light, or use spot lights instead.. but without giving the plants co2 and ferts, dumping them underwater, when they were all grown emersed, is a bit crazy..


sorry mate but the lack of it surely doesn't always i run a couple of low techs ppmd once a week water change once a week keep filters clean and no carbon supplement at all rarely any algae issues but obviously these tanks are low light whereas my high tech lots of co2 EI dosing lots of light nothing but algae issues for a good 6 months still im still learning IMO adding co2 and ferts will not solve their problems only speed them up their holding tanks are not high tech planted aquariums surely they would do better by lowering their lighting intensity and changing the water of the tanks more regularly i wouldnt want to buy plants from a high tech holding tank to place into my low tech and watch them disolve just because i dont want to add co2 to my setup as everyone knows almost impossible to go from high to low tech due to taking the carbon source away


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## NatureBoy (2 Dec 2012)

ghostsword said:
			
		

> It isn't fair to compare Pets at home with Living Waters, bit like comparing Asda with Morgan cars, ..
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> Living Waters is a shop run by a guy that does anything else but aquatic plants and fish, single shop, and Pet's at Home is run as a business with lots and lots of shops.
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I'm just comparing the retail of healthy vs languishing plants, it's a specialist trade, so reckon it's valid to highlight an approach that work fine.


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## SmallestFrog (2 Dec 2012)

ghostsword said:
			
		

> Even the guys at Maindenhead get it wrong sometimes, so not surprised that Pet's at Home is strugling.



ONLY sometimes?! Come to my local... you are in for a shock.

You make them sound saintly


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## Antipofish (2 Dec 2012)

SmallestFrog said:
			
		

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You should come to MY local. You would be pleasantly surprised.  The plants are usually in good condition (albeit half empty because they sell so fast there). The fish are healthy and tanks well looked after and the marine section is one of the best I have seen in the south east.


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## darren636 (3 Dec 2012)

Too many ma have fish in with their plants. I don't like that at all. Bad practice.


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## Iain Sutherland (3 Dec 2012)

darren636 said:
			
		

> Too many ma have fish in with their plants. I don't like that at all. Bad practice.


explain?

My local MA is excellent, shame the prices keep creeping up....


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## nayr88 (3 Dec 2012)

Thread going slightly of topic with the mention of MA and fish in there ranks BUT I'm interested as to why this is bad practice?


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## nayr88 (3 Dec 2012)

I'd have thought the fish in the planted tanks are in the bet place in the shop...the pent house if I may be so bold haha


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## Ian Holdich (3 Dec 2012)

IMO this is better practice, as 1, the plants get shown off in a tank and 2, the fish will often colour up better.


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## SmallestFrog (3 Dec 2012)

Antipofish said:
			
		

> You should come to MY local. You would be pleasantly surprised.  The plants are usually in good condition (albeit half empty because they sell so fast there). The fish are healthy and tanks well looked after and the marine section is one of the best I have seen in the south east.



Ooh, which one is that? Will have to see if I can pay it a visit!


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## darren636 (3 Dec 2012)

Bad practice because I don't want fish disease. Lingering on plants. Or un hatched eggs etc


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## nayr88 (3 Dec 2012)

I think you would be extremely unlikely to find fish eggs on plants, and even if you did I doubt they would survive the trip.

Fish disease is a valid point though. I've never thought about that but then again if the fish lookedhappy in there then is buy, but if the fish was trying to hang itself from the nearest java fern and riddled with white spots I may swerve the purchase tbh


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## Antipofish (3 Dec 2012)

darren636 said:
			
		

> Too many ma have fish in with their plants. I don't like that at all. Bad practice.



Why ?  We all have fish in with plants don't we ?

Ahh replied before seeing your later post.  Honestly darren, I doubt that would happen. And as someone else suggested, if the fish look healthy no drama, if they look sick, don't buy.  But I would imagine the incidence of fish disease being transported by plants to be highly unlikely.


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## darren636 (3 Dec 2012)

I would just rather do it the aqua essentials way.  Plants from fish populated tanks should be quarantined in my opinion.


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## Antipofish (3 Dec 2012)

darren636 said:
			
		

> I would just rather do it the aqua essentials way.  Plants from fish populated tanks should be quarantined in my opinion.



Actually, some people believe that ALL plants should be quarantined.  Certainly there was a lot of exposure to plants coming in from Asia causing problems with shrimp tanks.  So you are right.  If in doubt, regardless of fish or not (incidentally, some of the healthiest plants I have seen around have had fish in their tanks !) quarantine the plants for a few days.

Personally I am happier seeing fish in a nicely kept plant display/sales tank as its much more natural.  The only time I imported snails into my tank was from buying potted plants from a display that looked like it needed cleaning out.  And having bought plants from at least ten different locations, half of which had fish in, I have never suffered consequential losses or poor fish health.  Its more a case of trusting your instincts I believe.


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## darren636 (3 Dec 2012)

Everything that goes into my tank gets quarantined. Plants from ae- 3 days. Plants from ma and on the forum- 7 days


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## Ony (3 Dec 2012)

nayr88 said:
			
		

> I think you would be extremely unlikely to find fish eggs on plants, and even if you did I doubt they would survive the trip.
> 
> Fish disease is a valid point though. I've never thought about that but then again if the fish lookedhappy in there then is buy, but if the fish was trying to hang itself from the nearest java fern and riddled with white spots I may swerve the purchase tbh



Do a quick search and you will find huge numbers of threads on various forums about mysterious fry appearing with new plants. Eggs survive in the post very well as long as they stay moist.


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## darren636 (3 Dec 2012)

Fish eggs, whitespot, parasites. All can be transferee via plantage.


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## nayr88 (4 Dec 2012)

C'mon guys ease up! 

Unless your keeping shrimp then I think it's all abit over kill to turn your nose up at decent kept planted tanks containing fish.

It's simple common sense among us hobbyist that if you see a half dead fish or rotting plants don't buy
Same as walking in to a butchers and seeing one of those huge flies that's hangs around poo grazing on your pork loin and buying it. 




Word of the day 'plantage' love it haha!!


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## Antipofish (4 Dec 2012)

nayr88 said:
			
		

> C'mon guys ease up!
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> Unless your keeping shrimp then I think it's all abit over kill to turn your nose up at decent kept planted tanks containing fish.
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The phrase "Hit the nail on the head" springs to mind


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## Tim Harrison (4 Dec 2012)

I think that when all said and done a lot of these horrible nasties - along with various algal spores - probably reside in our tanks already or will do at some point whether introduced with fish or plants; they usually only become a problem when tank husbandry isn't up to scratch. All we can do is try reduce the risk by not buying fly blown pork loin.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (4 Dec 2012)

You never know what's lurking in your tank. My main tank at home I can honestly say I have never seen a snail in there ever and it has been running for years. I set up a little shrimp tank on my desk at work and snails are attempting to get the upper hand in there. All plants came from my original tank and the substrate and hard scape were either brand new or been out of the water too long for snail eggs to have survived.

Probably down to lack of predators, the snails had the tank to themselves while running in and uneaten shrimp food sinking and getting into the gravel. Either way I can be pretty sure there's plenty of snails in my main tank just they can't get a foot hold.


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## nayr88 (4 Dec 2012)

Double post


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## nayr88 (4 Dec 2012)

Troi said:
			
		

> All we can do is try reduce the risk by not buying fly blown pork loin.



That's the ruddy spirit!!! Hahaha


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## Antipofish (4 Dec 2012)

nayr88 said:
			
		

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Some cultures eat cheese that contain micro maggots !  Aint nothing wrong with a bit of fly blown pork loin that 200degreesC in the roasting oven won't cure, LOL>


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## AverageWhiteBloke (4 Dec 2012)

I saw something on QI not so long back showing the bacteria on cheese through a microscope. Even without maggots there's still plenty going on in there.


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