# will shrimp kill each other if hungry enough?



## Lindy (2 Mar 2013)

My shrimp always seem hungry and when I put some food in they fight alot over it. This morn I put a small quantity of white pellet in which the shrimp fought over, all were present and apparently well. A couple of hours later I catch one of the larger shrimp eating a smaller shrimp. Could the larger have killed the smaller? I have been trying to feed the shrimp less but they always seem to be starving!
Tank has been rescaped 4 weeks ago with existing wood/plants and some new(tropica). The shrimp went back in 1wk ago and have been very active. Tank temp 24degrees.
The other shrimp seem fine, espescially the one eating the other...


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## basil (2 Mar 2013)

I've seen amano shrimp actively chase down and eat CRS in my tank. Happened twice and the second time was enough evidence for me!!

I've never experienced same species of shrimp doing this, but it wouldn't surprise me though. Primarily veg / algae eaters, but who knows what they may do if they want a protein fix!!


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## Lindy (2 Mar 2013)

Should I squish a snail for them? You are a shrimp expert so please give me your honest opinion: My tap water is gh3, tds 44. With a gh booster(more recently mosura mineral+) I've been keeping these parameters:gh5, tds 130. I've also been feeding white pellet. Some of my crs have been showing loss of the white pigment despite this. The ph in the tank is around 6, the test water goes yellow. The substrate is ada amazonia so no doubt responsible for low ph. After my last post I lost another shrimp, a cbs, that had lost nearly all its white pigment so maybe the other had pegged it too. The other shrimp have good colour. I've also been using genchem Biozyme.
The rest of the shrimp are really active, feeding like fury. Surely they should find enough biofilm in the tank as there is less than 10 shrimp left? Questions: should I try feeding daily? Should I feed at all? How can some shrimp look great while others die? It is sooo fecking frustrating to try so hard and fail so miserably! If these guys die I won't get more...
The tank is on the journal 54l 'the nook'


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## basil (2 Mar 2013)

I'll post up later, but stop feeding for now. There will be plenty of food in there. Dose another 2ml of mosura. Mix with a little tank water first and pour into tank. Your tds is a touch low and could be causing moulting problems. It would also maybe explain the white loss. Try to get to bout 150 tds.


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## Lindy (2 Mar 2013)

Its done. will test tds in wee while to see where its at.


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## basil (2 Mar 2013)

Oh, and dont squish any snails - might lead to water quality issues.


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## basil (2 Mar 2013)

Drop the temp a tad too. For crs I try to maintain 21-22 degrees.


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## basil (2 Mar 2013)

Couple of questions for you:-

Exactly how often do you feed and with what?

What's your water change regime? How much, how often?

Have you got any catappa leaves or banana leaves that you could add?

Have you had the shrimp for long?


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## Lindy (2 Mar 2013)

Feed every 2-3 days, genchem white pellet, genchen biozyme, hikari shrimp cuisine. 
Wc weekly 10%. Make up replacement water to gh 5 and dechlorinator then add water through airline tubing. Cappata leaves in. 
Had these shrimp 5-6 mths I think. At hairdressers so can't check diary!


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## LancsRick (2 Mar 2013)

What's the purpose of banana leaves basil? I know catappa leaves for tannins, but haven't encountered people using banana leaves before. Cheers!


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## Lindy (2 Mar 2013)

Apparently good for biofilm.


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## basil (2 Mar 2013)

LancsRick said:


> What's the purpose of banana leaves basil? I know catappa leaves for tannins, but haven't encountered people using banana leaves before. Cheers!



Dried banana leaves have fantastic antibacterial properties. A good preventative product to have in your tanks. Also a great food source that won't load tank with nasties like protein based dried feeds can.


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## Lindy (2 Mar 2013)

Ok, home and checked, had shrimp for 5mths.


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## Lindy (2 Mar 2013)

Dropped temp to 23 but that is as low as I can go for the lampeyes that share the tank.


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## Lindy (2 Mar 2013)

Just checked tds, @135 should I just add 2ml a day until it is @150?


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## LancsRick (2 Mar 2013)

Interesting, might give those a go then, thanks!


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## basil (3 Mar 2013)

ldcgroomer said:


> Feed every 2-3 days, genchem white pellet, genchen biozyme, hikari shrimp cuisine.
> Wc weekly 10%. Make up replacement water to gh 5 and dechlorinator then add water through airline tubing. Cappata leaves in.
> Had these shrimp 5-6 mths I think. At hairdressers so can't check diary!


 
Sounds like your feeding regime is not over the top and should be acceptable for the shrimp. 10% weekly change in my experience is good and maintains stability, so i wouldnt change. So feeding and water changes both sound ok. If I was being picky, I might suggest feeding less dried feed and try offering nettle, spinach or cattapa or banana etc in place of a pellet. I've been playing around myself with a tank that gets hardly any pellet, I just give them leaf instead. I've not had any deaths [yet!!] compared to a tank that gets regular [2/3 times a week] feed of dried pellet feed. I cant be sure and I'm certainly no biologist, but like you I've also experienced shrimp deaths after pellet feeding. Maybe the shrimp are eating pellet too quickly after being introduced to the tank, which causes the feed to swell inside the shrimp and making it hard to digest? Who knows.....

pH, gh etc all sound pretty much on the money. Must be something else.

Do you dose co2 or ferts?


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## tim (3 Mar 2013)

lindy how long after your rescape did you add the shrimp, ada amazonia leaches ammonia hopefully this is not the problem but as basil stated the rest of your params and maintainence seems spot on hope you overcome your problems


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## Lindy (4 Mar 2013)

Basil I have pressurised CO2 at a low level and have done for some time, dc at green but not lime green. I had been dosing a low level of EI but when I rescaped I used ADA Amazonia so have not dosed since. The lampeyes don't show any signs of distress and I did decrease the amount(co2) a couple of days ago anyway. There is surface agitation via a full length spray bar causing a surface ripple. I have stopped with the pellet food and have added another cappata leaf, a banana leaf and a handfull of beech leaves. Tds is at 145 and I'll add another 2ml of mosura plus tomorrow. Will check gh too.

Tim, I waited 3 weeks after the rescape, 1.5 weeks after planting. Did the required amount of water changes, was mature filter. Left some of the old substrate and mulm under the Amazonia. Didn't get any plant melt or surface scum.

I'm glad you both think my tank is ok, I do feel I've done everything I can which is why I've decided if this lot die then thats it, no more shrimp.


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## basil (4 Mar 2013)

I think it's probably the Ada leaching ammonia as Tim flagged already. Have you tested ammonia levels? If you can, run off your tank change water and let it stand for a few days in the house in buckets, adding the usual tap safe products. Keep regular 30% changes using the standing water to help dilute the ammonia. Hold off the pellet etc and keep the leaves in.

I matured a few tanks from scratch a few years back with ADA. I tested every day to better understand maturation process and I know ammonia levels went through the roof at about day 20 on 3 different tanks. Your shrimp deaths could be related, in which case you need to dilute.


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## Lindy (5 Mar 2013)

Ok, I'll do as suggested but shrimp have been dying over last 2 months, well before the rescape. One died in the holding tank(54l) whilst other tank was being redone. I started with 11 0r 12 and now have 5 crs left, one went for a walk, rest died in the tank. I had kept the external filter running too so thought with water changes and a mature filter that it would be ok, oh dear.


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## tim (5 Mar 2013)

Bacterial infection maybe, I'm not that experienced myself with shrimp small regular water changes is about all I could recommend, does sound more bacterial if they are dying off slowly


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## Lindy (6 Mar 2013)

The PH is lower now and stable. There are Capatta leaves and a banana leaf in now too so hopfully will help stop any infection. Gh now 6, tds@153. There is 4 really healthy looking CRS and 1 with really poor white banding so hoping this one can pick up.


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## basil (6 Mar 2013)

Don't give up, my colony depleted to just 2 shrimp. I figured out the problem and those 2 went on to produce a colony of over 200  Satitsfying  when it goes well, but as you are finding its head banging when problems develop! Keep us posted.


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## Lindy (6 Mar 2013)

Well tonight a CRS had cast its shell and was hiding in the Java fern. 4 of the other shrimp were swimming and running around the tank. I'm hoping that this is a sign that the males at least are interested in getting some action Either that or I'm going to find everything dead tomorrow
One more shrimp has died, a CBS that had also lost all of its white pigment.


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## basil (6 Mar 2013)

Fingers crossed that things will settle down now then. If the males are doing the mating dance, I wouldn't mind betting that the one that's moulted and hiding is a saddled female. Could be berried in the morning for you!


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## Lindy (6 Mar 2013)

Now that would be nice! Thanks Basil...


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## basil (6 Mar 2013)

Sometimes you can see a dark triangular shaped patch / shoulder immediately behind the head if she's saddled. Depends on how solid white your shrimp are of course. Good luck!


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## Lindy (7 Mar 2013)

Nope, no saddled female this morn The shrimp that are healthy are too white to see anything. One that died that had lost its pigment was saddled. All shrimp left have good pigment bar one that I think is male.


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## mlgt (7 Mar 2013)

Just my two cents but I find as with fish the weaker is always disposed of some way or another if it brings threat to the group.
I was told that shrimps do release a pheremone which can intoxicate other shrimp. But I have no scientific backing to this.

With me and all my shrimps I keep them in 60-100l tanks and every so often offload a bunch to ensure that the bloodline is changed every season. 

Never used the leaves before and use bog standard substrate with no problems. Bred high grade shrimps from a group of 6 to a few hundred. 

Nowadays you have more specialised soils and access to RO more easier which can mimic their parameters which makes acclimaitsation much more easier.


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## anttthony (7 Mar 2013)

Ive always lost shrimp over the course of a month if I put 20 in they will slowly die. ive added a poly filter for a few days and pulled it yesterday to find its blue/green indicating ionic copper. I have never used bunched plants and always bought tropica from the green machine. Iam putting it down to a white spot medication I used about 8 months ago (before I kept shrimp) left copper in the tank. just added 4 cherries to hopefully they will be ok.

ant


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## Lindy (8 Mar 2013)

May have found the source of the problem. I got some calibration fluid for the tds meter, just to check, and it is showing 20ppm over the true reading. So I thought I'd raised my tds to 150 and really it is 130 so will add 2ml of the mosura plus daily until it is at 150.


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## charlie (8 Mar 2013)

Just to chuck my ten penneth (sp?) into the mix. I have had amano shrimp chase and eat other amanos  in a 200 ltr tank. The eaten shrimp may have been ill but did not show any ill effects prior to becoming the main course for their tank mates. Mlgt may have a point about the pheremones ?


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## Lindy (9 Mar 2013)

This morn I had a berried CRS! A couple of hrs later when the lights were on I went for another look and she'd dropped all of the eggs. Was totaly gutted. I didn't realise they would do this, maybe there was something wrong with the eggs? Gutted, gutted, gutted.....

Not going to raise the TDS anymore as taking this as a sign it is at a suitable level. Just wondering if the eggs were inferior because the shrimp have been deprived of a suitable level of minerals for a while?


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## Lindy (9 Mar 2013)

Ok, feeling very stupid now. I've got 2 shrimp that look very similar so I must have been counting them as the same one as I've 1 more shrimp than I thought, and she IS berried . She is keeping a very low profile while the lights are on but I managed to get a couple of pics in the 60sec she was out just so I know I've not cracked.










Hurrah!!!!!(Thanks Basil)


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## Ady34 (9 Mar 2013)

Chuffed for you Lindy


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## Lindy (9 Mar 2013)

Thanks very much Ady


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## basil (9 Mar 2013)

Now you just gotta love a happy ending like this!! Very pleased for you, it's most satisfying when you get a berried shrimp......especially a nice CRS like that! Looks like a good SS grade mum. Now you have about 4-5 weeks to get ready for shrimplets. If you can live with it in your tank, try to keep a small patch of brown algae growing on the glass.  Even if its just 10x10cm. Baby shrimp love this stuff and it helps them get through the first week.

Well done again!


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## Lindy (9 Mar 2013)

Thanks basil  I don't really get much of anything growing on the glass but I never clean the back of the tank. I have some small lava rock with round pelia and have just tied 2 meshes with more round pelia so I'll put those in. There is quite alot of leaf litter now and I'll add more in a couple of weeks so its nice and slimey for any shrimplets. Thanks for all your advice. I'm not going to celebrate too much until a few weeks has passed and all is still well. 4-5 weeks? That feels like forever !


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## basil (9 Mar 2013)

Yeah, get the pelia in there....a cracking plant for shrimp. I had a plant the size of a football in one of my tanks, until wife thinned it out for eBay!! Lol


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## Lindy (9 Mar 2013)

Haha, I had just listed mine on ebay yesterday so pulled it today!


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## basil (9 Mar 2013)

Oh and sorry to say this, but the Lampeye will eat the shrimplets. Maybe rehome the fish? 

Tough decisions ahead......


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## Lindy (9 Mar 2013)

I thought about taking them out but they are a mare to catch! I'd end up pulling lots of plants up and disturbing substrate. The leaf litter and pelia is under the redmoor root and the fish don't go under there. You can see it on my journal 54l'the nook'


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## Lindy (9 Mar 2013)

Ah, but no recent photo so imagine the cave bit with lots of leaves with pelia round it. Not kidding, don't think I could catch the lampeyes if I tried, they are tiny and go to ground and hide. Will think on it....


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## Lindy (10 Mar 2013)

Am I right in thinking I don't want my gh going over 6? Tested the tank tds and gh today and its at 153 and 7. Did a bit of testing and found that a tds of 147 gives me a gh of 6 so I'm going to bring the tank tds to 147 over next few days.

Gave the shrimp an un expected treat today. Had taken the canister filter off the pipes to change the floss and add more ceramic noodles. Normaly I put the canister back on full because the fluval tubing releases lots of trapped mulm(they are ribbed) if I put it on empty. Today I forgot and thought 'oh crap' as lots of stuff came flying out the spraybar. The shrimp were very happy tho and started eating what they could get hold of! It had never occured to me that they might like it. I may do this everytime I do maintenance on the filter. It has all cleared now and the shrimp are on the mesh intake clearing any debris.


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## Lindy (11 Mar 2013)

Another berried CRS this morn! She's hiding so no pic.


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## basil (11 Mar 2013)

Wow, your on a roll!! Told you so about the heartache to joy of shrimp keeping 

Amazing what a couple of small changes can do to the shrimp.

Seriously, though if your using tap water for changes get some buckets and run some off now. Give it time to age etc, your shrimplets will be better for it. And when they arrive, knock back your changes completely for a month whilst they get past the early days. Use top up water only. Oh, and if you don't have any, get some baby shrimp food. Once born they hardly move so you want to make sure they have some food source that's finding them. It's like dust, and when mixed with tank water it finds it will find its way to the babies.


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## Lindy (11 Mar 2013)

Ok, I'll get on it. Started moving the lampeyes, 8 out 5 left and the 8 in the nano look a lot happier than the 5 left in big tank! Had been looking at genchems baby shrimp food so will order in.


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## bogwood (15 Mar 2013)

My latest CRS only set up uses ADA.
I allowed it to mature for 5wks before adding livestock.
I run at PH 6.5. TDS 130. GH 5. Temp 21.5..
Tank has plenty of Leaves, bark, cones, and a banana leaf, and the shrimps relish them.
About every 4 days i feed a very small amount of Biomax..  Mainly to bring shrimps to the front for viewing, and a head count.

From a personal point, never been happy with CO2, in a shrimp only set up, when trying to raise young. I know others use it without problems.
I just feed my numerous moss on  Tropica weekly.

Incidentally, always done weekly 20% water change, prepared to the Tank parameters.
Together with floating plants, Im convinced this helps me run with a very low Nitrate.


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