# Lighting Recommendation



## Aiden123 (11 Oct 2014)

Hi everyone, I am setting up a high tech planted tank and I would like some lighting recommendation because I'm not sure which to go for.

The tank is 24"L x 12"W x 13"H
I will be using pressurised Co2
I will be dosing ferts and using a nutrient rich substrate

I would like to have a nice carpet of HC, with a variety of quite demanding plants.

My budget for lighting is up to £200 (may be able to go higher for the right light) and the light would need to mount to the side of the tank without modification (tank is open top)

I have been looking at 2 x 24watt T5 but I do prefer the look of LED but I can't quite find any appropriate LED lighting.

Thanks in advance


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## Bhu (11 Oct 2014)

Led has come a long way these days and looks great. I'd definitely look at the TMC range. But there are many others out there too. You want to be looking at PAR values. The days of WPG as a way of judging are clearly over.

You definitely need to watch this.  

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/interesting-led-video.34710/


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## Aiden123 (11 Oct 2014)

That is quite an interesting video!

So I'm now looking at  the Arcadia Classica OTL-LED Light Unit Freshwater 60cm unit, the PAR readings are quite good, but the review I see aren't very favourable. Anyone have any experience with this unit?


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## Bhu (11 Oct 2014)

Looks a good bit of kit. The PFK review looked ok. What reviews are you referring to? I didn't notice this one when I was looking for my LED set up so got the TMC aqua grow 600 with dimmer control unit came to a similar price. Both seem to have similar features but the Arcadia looks to have better PAR values at the base almost double in fact. Id still want to see a spectral graph showing the blue green red percentages but its most likely going to be heavy blue as most LED are. You will need to use the controller as with those par values it will be way too much light. you will need to dim it down a lot to start with. I had an arcadia triple 250w MH for a reef tank and it produce some excellent growth. They make good quality units.


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## Aiden123 (11 Oct 2014)

The reviews for the light itself are great, but for the controller on the unit, they are quite poor. Take the PFK review for example, they say its clunky and very difficult to use. Just doing a quick google search shows that quite a few people just modify and rig up their own controller for the unit which I don't think I could do.


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## Bhu (11 Oct 2014)

I really like the dual TMC controller. Very simple to use.

http://catalogue.tropicalmarinecentre.co.uk/Detail.aspx?sku=1898-UK&lang=en

Here's the lighting I cant find it on the TMC site which is weird...

http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/tmc-grobeam-600-ultima-twin-p-3799.html

http://www.filedropper.com/aquaray

This is all the information and more on them... (sorry about the horrible file drop system wasn't sure how else to get a PDF up here).


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## Dantrasy (11 Oct 2014)

A friend of mine has one those ada style aquasky lights, just like the 602, only it has a few more leds. he's having great success growing a hc carpet in a 60x40x40. about US$200 from memory.


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## Aiden123 (11 Oct 2014)

Are they available in the UK?


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## Bhu (11 Oct 2014)

For an open top tank that 602 looks great for sure!


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## Aiden123 (11 Oct 2014)

The 602 is also twice my budget


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## parotet (11 Oct 2014)

Dantrasy said:


> A friend of mine has one those ada style aquasky lights, just like the 602, only it has a few more leds. he's having great success growing a hc carpet in a 60x40x40. about US$200 from memory.


Too expensive IMO to be just a copy and purchased thousands kilometers away from home thus very complex situation if something is wrong.
I think your best bet is a TMC Aquabar 600, maybe two if you can suspend them or add a dimmer. It fits best with your budget and you can even try to buy a second hand one. During the last months here in UKAPS several units and controllers have been sold

Jordi


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## Aiden123 (11 Oct 2014)

I have had a look at those TMC aquabar 600, so many different accessories and I'm not quite sure what extras I'd need to get to mount the lights off the tank glass?


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## Bhu (11 Oct 2014)

Yes I was lucky. I have a big spacious hood and glass drip trays for them to sit on.


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## Dantrasy (12 Oct 2014)

Aiden123 said:


> Are they available in the UK?



Not sure, I'm not in the UK. 
Check aliexpress.com and search '60cm 602 ADA type led'


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## parotet (12 Oct 2014)

Google 'Chihiro Aquasky' and you'll get it easily

Jordi


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## Bhu (12 Oct 2014)

On an open top tank setup I don't think that the TMC look that good. I'd definitely go with the 602 and to bad about the expense


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## Aiden123 (12 Oct 2014)

If I had the money, I would go with the aquasky. But I don't   so I'm leaning towards the Arcadia OTL since I don't have to mess about with buying extras to get it to mount on the tank + controller


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## Aiden123 (12 Oct 2014)

I have decided to go with 2 x 24 watt T5 60cm from aquarium garden. Seem like good quality for a good price


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## parotet (13 Oct 2014)

Aiden123 said:


> I have decided to go with 2 x 24 watt T5 60cm from aquarium garden. Seem like good quality for a good price


That's what I have over my tank. It was that cheap that I could pay electricity bills for years and still keep under the LED fixture prices. In my case from 55 euros (T5 2x24w with tubes and DIY suspension kit) to 160 euros (LED with controller). Yes, definitely LEDs look nicer but it will take you a decade to save 110 euros in electricity.
As mentioned, if you have the money and you like it then go for it, but take into account that the secret to your success won't be this one.

Jordi


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## Bhu (13 Oct 2014)

Ahhh but don't forget you should really change those tubes every 6 months as the light emissions drop drastically In some of the important output ranges... I also use fluorescent tubes for growing land plants such as basil and corriander in an aero garden and the lights need to be changed every 6 months or growth does get less and the plants start to have issues. They work perfectly mind. I get great lush growth.


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## parotet (13 Oct 2014)

Bhu said:


> Ahhh but don't forget you should really change those tubes every 6 months as the light emissions drop drastically In some of the important output ranges... I also use fluorescent tubes for growing land plants such as basil and corriander in an aero garden and the lights need to be changed every 6 months or growth does get less and the plants start to have issues. They work perfectly mind. I get great lush growth.


Sorry, don't agree with this... you will see plenty of folks running T5HO fixtures without changing the tubes for long periods of time. If you feel it doesn't emit enough light just get them closer to the tank. Plants get adapted to the light conditions and you don't need a sun over you to grow aquatic plants. In a 60 cm lonk tank 2x24w T5HO will grow whatever you want, even if the light drops drastically (if you are a newbie on planted tanks I would begin placing the light fixture 25 cm above the tank. If you don't use Co2 you have toooo much light). For one year this fixture has been 40 cm above my 60 cm tank and now that I'm playing harder and inject loads of Co2 I got it 15 cm above the tank... this light fixture came with two horizontal extension legs to be placed just a few centimeters above the water, but I have not been able to place the light so low without issues and the tubes are more than 1 year old right now. I would say that even if the tubes' output drops dramatically (which is true) there will be no effect for you... so save your money for something else and keep on using your old tubes. In that tank you have 58 liters but if you add gravel, plants and equipment you will find yourself with 50 liters maximum... just a rule of thumb that means nothing, but note that this makes 1 watt per liter of T5HO which is a lot of light.

Jordi


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## Alastair (13 Oct 2014)

Bhu said:


> Ahhh but don't forget you should really change those tubes every 6 months as the light emissions drop drastically In some of the important output ranges... I also use fluorescent tubes for growing land plants such as basil and corriander in an aero garden and the lights need to be changed every 6 months or growth does get less and the plants start to have issues. They work perfectly mind. I get great lush growth.



It's been proven that tubes don't need changing like manufacturers state, it's makes very little difference to aquariums other than how it looks to our eyes. 
Clive has proven this theory I'll try to find the link


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## ian_m (13 Oct 2014)

Bhu said:


> Ahhh but don't forget you should really change those tubes every 6 months as the light emissions drop drastically In some of the important output ranges...


The Matrix at work. Manufacturers have convinced you to buy their tubes every 6 months, lovely for them, but completely unnecessary as light output hardly drops over that time.

Here is a graph of T5 HO light output. So at 20,000 hours only down to 90% of initial lumen value. 20,000 hours is 2 1/4 years. Also driven by electronic ballast to get this output.





On caveat I would give, I had some cheap T8 tubes at one time and they were certainly dimmer after about a year and half. Arcadia equivalent were hardly changed in brightness after 2 years.

Also with electronic ballasts the tube will degrade less.

Also heat is an issue. Tubes open to air last longer, tubes in a luminaire with out cooling fan (as in Ebay cheapies) last a lot less.


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## Aiden123 (13 Oct 2014)

Thanks everyone for your advice.

I have order the 2 x 24watt T5 60cm from aquarium garden. Hopefully this tank will be a success


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## Bhu (13 Oct 2014)

Your graph clearly shows a 20% drop in performance... But by then you will have a lot more demand as well due to extra plant growth. I'm happy to change mine and have noticed less growth on older tubes. Same for my MH and sodium lamps as well. But yes sure it still works. Just depends what you want which for me is maximum yield.


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## ian_m (13 Oct 2014)

Bhu said:


> Your graph clearly shows a 20% drop in performance


Where is 20% ? Lumen maintenance is the line you are looking for, slightly less than 90% @ 20,000hours.

Actually in fact  the loss of light is related to number of times turned on and off (why offices leave lights on 24/7 ?). The tube heater filaments evaporating at start up over time lead to light loss. However, if you are using something like Juwel lighting (or super modern high frequency ballast), they don't use the heater, thus tubes will last even longer. Basically, as has been researched numerous time with aquatic tubes, you will loose about 5% lumens pretty quickly, 1-2 months (you can actually buy pre burnt in tubes for lighting if you need very accurate lighting levels in industry), then virtually nothing in light loss for next couple of years.


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## Bhu (13 Oct 2014)

I don't know maybe we read charts differently as to me after 238 days the green lumen line is nearly at 80 its clearly below 85.

Also how many tubes were used in this experiment? One lucky one, 10 or 100? Also its not the brightness I initially referred to but the wave length the tube gives off. It still may be bright to the human eye but if most of that range is in the green or yellow not much use to green aquatic plants. Anyhow, I'm happy to replace mine every 6 months as I have done for many years and had successful growths (non aquatic use) for my aquatic use I went with LED which last a good 5 years before any change in output.


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## dw1305 (13 Oct 2014)

Hi all, 
I think that if you factor in running costs, CRI, lamp life etc. that an electronically ballasted 25W linear tri-phosphor T5 lamp was still the most efficient light source in 2012. 

Details are here: <"Max Tech and Beyond: Fluorescent lighting" - (University of California)>.

cheers Darrel


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## ian_m (13 Oct 2014)

Bhu said:


> I don't know maybe we read charts differently as to me after 238 days the green lumen line is nearly at 80 its clearly below 85


 ????? Where are you reading 238 days from ?

15,000 hours at 12hours per day is 1250 days 3.5 years to 90% lumen loss. Hopefully you are running a tank at 6-8hours a day which gives 5-7 years life (actually less than this as each turn on reduce life a little).

On the data sheet I have it also gives spectral shift over lifetime, which is basically none, just general lumen reduction across all spectral range.


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## Bhu (13 Oct 2014)

An interesting read. It is clear that the technology has come a long way since the 1930's. It doesn't show comparisons to LED only previous similar technology T8, T12 etc also the fail rate has a 50% error so some may last the full 200 days given as max orthers may not. But you might get lucky and have one last 2 years. The new research will improve the lumen output per watt but still they need to test the effects it might have on health and durability etc. They also state that a lot of the research funding has gone away from this field to newer ideas such as MH and LED which might imply that the future is there and that the fluorescent tube is nearly at its peak...



ian_m said:


> ????? Where are you reading 238 days from ?
> 
> 15,000 hours at 12hours per day is 1250 days 3.5 years to 90% lumen loss. Hopefully you are running a tank at 6-8hours a day which gives 5-7 years life (actually less than this as each turn on reduce life a little).
> 
> On the data sheet I have it also gives spectral shift over lifetime, which is basically none, just general lumen reduction across all spectral range.


Did you say that they need to be left on for maximum life due to burn out in starting? So that's 24 hours in a day not 12. But what's your point here? Are you a T5 salesman? Ha ha ha or have you invested in fluorescent lighting technology shares?  just kidding. I use cfl for my herbs. Works great but I defianately need to change them.

Can we see the data sheet? Who is it by?


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## ian_m (13 Oct 2014)

Bhu said:


> But what's your point here?


Just that you have fallen for the Matrix and are wasting money in changing the tubes for no reason other than manufacturers have told you to. If your "old, used" tubes are T5 742mm 35W please post them to me....


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## Bhu (13 Oct 2014)

Ha ha ha I took the red pill!


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## Bhu (13 Oct 2014)

After researching on this forum its use em til they blow then  sounds like a good deal!


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## Aiden123 (13 Oct 2014)

I was always under the impressions that bulbs had to be changed regularly too! 
Music to my wallet by sounds of it now


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## Alastair (14 Oct 2014)

Here's the post I mentioned, where Clive has shown people that changing bulbs or plant growth will be reduced is a myth 
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/index.php?posts/90900


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## ian_m (14 Oct 2014)

Aiden123 said:


> was always under the impressions that bulbs had to be changed regularly too!


That's because the tube manufacturers have told you for no other reason than to sell more tubes.


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## dw1305 (14 Oct 2014)

Hi all,
I think even with LEDS you will get changes in spectra as they age, hopefully someone who knows more about them will be able to pass comment.. 

Modern electronically ballasted tri-phosphor fluorescent tubes basically remain as bright as they started until they fail. You don't get any cycling etc towards the end of their life span, so if the tube is lit it is OK.

cheers Darrel


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## ian_m (14 Oct 2014)

dw1305 said:


> Modern electronically ballasted tri-phosphor fluorescent tubes basically remain as bright as they started until they fail


Modern tubes generally lose brightness over a couple of years due to the tungsten in the heater filaments evaporating, a lot when started and a bit during use, and "condensing" on the phosphor reducing its brightness. However, as you stated, modern electronic ballasts (eg like the Juwel units) don't use the heater, they "flash over" 1000Volts to start the tube, tubes will last a lot longer than conventional "olde magnetic" ballasts. The tubes finally fail when a gap appears in the tube heater, maybe as short as 20,000 hours .



dw1305 said:


> think even with LEDS you will get changes in spectra as they age,


Good quality LED's generally don't change spectra as they age, they just get dimmer. Good figures are 35,000hours to 80% lumens, which is actually a lot worse than a T5 HO tube, but you would have to not turn the T5 off to get that life time.

What happens with lower quality LED's is the chip reduces in brightness with age but the packaging ie lenses/cover etc can be adversely affected by the bright light (especially the UV bit) and darken/yellow. This happens in the 1000's of hours timescale, a factor of 10-50 times faster than the LED reduction in brightness. This darkening/yellowing greatly reduces light level, blocks the blue end of the spectrum producing a yellowing/reddening of the spectrum. This issue was solved years ago by the "big boy" LED manufacturers ie Cree, Osram but is extremely common at the cheaper Hong Kong Ebay end of the market.


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