# Dwarf Puffer sexing??



## zozo

I decided to go for a little harem of dwarf puffers.. Bought 3 of them unfortunately one didn't make it and dies 3 days after..  Went very quickly from lively little fish nibbling pond snail baby's and 3 hours later it laid dead on the bottom. Th eother 2 are doing great, improved color and explore the tank all day long.








And of what i understand is buying juvenile dwarf puffers is a role with the dice when it comes to sexing them.
I was planning to put a few more in but want to wait till i'm able to sex the 2 i got now. Some say buy the ones with a white belly when young to reduce the chanses of buying males. Maybe i'm color blind i couldn't find a white belly among them. These 2 have a clear yellow belly..

Does anybody know at what age puffers are identifiable as male or female.??


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## Greenfinger2

Hi Marcel,

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_4/V4I1/sexing_puffers/Sexing_The_Dwarf_Puffer.htm

Best info I could find


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## zozo

Thanks Roy, great site, that one i did't find (click) during my search.. I knew how to, but never found info at what age it is possible with certain degree of accuracy.
This author says when size is between 0.5" to 1"  a bit vague, but something.. Mine already are in that size, for now i would say they are female , that's already positive for a start.. But i'll still wait a while and see if they still grow and or may change in body feature.


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## darren636

Very cute characters
But also completely psychopathic!


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## zozo

Till now i can't say, they ignore everything but themselfs and the snails around them.. Don't look at the shrimps, also got a school of rather atcive and flashy barbs and they both hover dauntless in the middle of them.. I guess they need snails to blow of steam, even don't bother to take the bloodwurms i offer them.  Got 3 tanks and 1 sump at the time and a 4th tank is comming, so enough snails for a lifetime ..

Waiting for the camera's wrist strap to arrive.. I definitely shoot a vid..


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## markk

zozo said:


> Till now i can't say, they ignore everything but themselfs and the snails around them.. Don't look at the shrimps, also got a school of rather atcive and flashy barbs and they both hover dauntless in the middle of them.. I guess they need snails to blow of steam, even don't bother to take the bloodwurms i offer them.  Got 3 tanks and 1 sump at the time and a 4th tank is comming, so enough snails for a lifetime ..
> 
> Waiting for the camera's wrist strap to arrive.. I definitely shoot a vid..


Zozo

I have a group of 7 - recently moved into a tank of their own! (And much happier there).

I think trying to sex them at below 1inch is going to be tricky. With smaller/younger fish your best bet is to try and guess based on their temperament - in my experience the males are far more aggressive/dominant. Though this is harder in small groups (e.g. 2!) and groups of mixed size. 

Mine predominantly eat live food. They're happy munching through a host of tadpole snails but go nuts for daphnia, asellus and scuds. Haven't tried them on white worms etc yet - though when it comes to frozen foods, they won't touch anything other than bloodworm. Not interested in tubifex, mysids, squid etc.

I'm very wary of feeding them too many snails as they generally only bite off the heads - which usually leaves the body to rot in the shell (and there is no cleanup crew in the new tank - they just get eaten!). I'm going to experiment with other smaller, soft shelled snail species to see if they'll eat them whole.

Cheers
Mark

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk


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## zozo

Thanks for the info Mark..  So it stays a role with the dice, if not adults are offered in the lfs.

I did set up the tank with puffers on my mind.. To provide hidding places and areas where they could go and get out of sight to avoid eachother if necessary. Also provided the tank with an oversized sump filter with a moving bed filter compartment, these filters seem to be the best amonia and nitrite converters around producing nitrrates. This all in preperation of the mess they can make..  The levels still stay in acceptable range..

I planned to put 5 together and first wanted to start out with 3 and wait till i can determine their sex. Unfortunately one didn't get through the first week and only got 2 left..The only differnce i can see in them for now is one has a very round belly and the other is more flat, no other markings yet to show. But they love to stay together, like best friends..

Mine do the same ignore all frozen food but bloodwurm.. Only the 2 of them already eradicated a lot of young snails within 2 weeks.. I had to many to count of them on the glass and now i have to look hard to find some in the plants. But still young snails to find and till now they leave the bigger ones alone. I have some kind of pond snails which came with the plants. I think they are pefect, because they multiply like crazy, in the 2 months the tank cycled they went from a few to over a hundred. I got relative soft water and in the other tanks i see them having a hard time to get fully grown and the soft acidic water keeps the numbers down. There fore did put a calcite rock in the puffer tank especialy for the snails, so they live longer, have more and can multiply in larger numbers, it seems to work.

I see the puffers not killing snails al day long and also take stuff from the substrate they seem to eat, it's like they might eat what they killed before. Also have a school of barbs i see nibbling on baby snails now and then, they might cleanup the puffers spoils.. It looks like i got a nice round cycle going for now, but all is still just a few months running, it's wait and see how it keeps up.


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## markk

I'd be interested to hear how you get on - sounds like we have the same aim - breed some puffers

Something else I forgot to mention that I've noticed now my puffers are in their new tank. When they're asleep/settling down - they seem to attach/stick themselves to a flat surface - even vertical surfaces such as tank sides and filter tube. Have you noticed this? I can't find much online about it (a couple of references to big marine puffers).

I don't think I saw it before as in the larger, heavier planted tank they tended to disappear for the night. A bit more obvious in the newly planted low tech...

Cheers
Mark


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## zozo

I'll let you know when the time comes..  Breeding them is not particular my aim, but if they do, my aim would be accomplished in giving them excactly what they need and of course would be a the cherry on top.. My aim of sexing them is to reduce the risk having to many if not only males together. So if the 2 i have apaear to be(come) male i will definitely not buy any others before i know i get what they need. 3 females and find me a breeder who can provide me with that even if i have to travel half a day for it. 

Not yet seen them sticking to anything and do not realy have an idea what you mean by that. With what or how would they do that, can you elaborate on that?

As for now i only got 2 and they decided that the crypt in the left corner is their home base.. 1 is a little timide and is most of the day safely at home, doesn't go much out own it's own. The other is more bold and explores the whole tank, once in a while and sometimes they go togehter for chasing snails..


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## markk

zozo said:


> Not yet seen them sticking to anything and do not realy have an idea what you mean by that. With what or how would they do that, can you elaborate on that?



The closest thing that springs to mind the is the lumpsucker: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpsucker

They seem to secrete something from the 'stomach' area that attaches them lightly to the surface. I quite often see the smaller ones swimming around with some substrate attached to them first thing in the morning.



zozo said:


> As for now i only got 2 and they decided that the crypt in the left corner is their home base.. 1 is a little timide and is most of the day safely at home, doesn't go much out own it's own. The other is more bold and explores the whole tank, once in a while and sometimes they go togehter for chasing snails..



Do you have some floaters in the tank? They definitely seem to appreciate them. The tank they were in previously has some Hydrocotyle leucocephala that I usually train horizontally. The puffers would regularly hide under the leaves (particularly when the lights were at their max) and move from under one leave to the next - almost like someone keeping out of the rain

Regards
Mark


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## zozo

Mark thank you, Lumpsucker, very intresting i didn't know that one, never heard of it before... Yet didn't see anyting sticking to them or them sticking to something.. Again something to look out for and wonder about and study more closely.  Man you got to love this hobby and the wonders it can bring..  Nice word also.. 

Yes i have some floaters, at he time only salvinia.. But the tank is still young little over 10 weeks now and still growing in. I'm planning another floater, i tried Eichornia but that's a plant not suitable for this setup and took it out again and reserved for the pond.. I like to replace it with a small Nelumbo bowl cultivar (indian lotus), no idea how this will work out in a tank, just have to try, if not i go back to my good old dwarfed water lily. Also have the driftwood rather elevated and atached some small and large java ferns to it, close to the surface, they also will canopy the surface area later on, some of them might just grow on emersed and act partialy as floater. Well that is the plan, it's still wait and see. 

They often dwell close to the surface in the java ferns looking for snacks, but actualy find them exploring all over the tank in the caves and cracks as well close to the substrate. I'm realy amazed about the speed they can make with there tiny clumsy looking bodies and even more tiny fins..

I still have the impression i'm dealing with 2 females, i hope it isn't just wishfull thinking..  That would be nice and far easier, buy one more and wait again till i can sex it..


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## zozo

darren636 said:


> Very cute characters
> But also completely psychopathic!



I believe i've seen today what you mean..  Witnessed my first Puffer Baiting, man they can put up a fight!  And realy biting eachother in the butt.  I could laugh after i saw none of them was wounded, at least it didn't show, not even their pride was. But i saw them first go into intimidation, spreading fins, coloring and puffing up, circling around eachother.. I thought  Aww!! look they are loving eachother and mating, but then attack!! All of a sudden i see one get bitten, shoot away like a bullit with the other still attached to it's behind and didn't let go till half way the tank. The one bitten hid away in it's corner for 5 minutes, came out again and then they swam brotherly around like nothing happened. It's like they fight for fun. What a show. 

Now i suspect they are boys.. Or do girls do that too?? Or do girls do that to cheeky boys??

I'll keep the camera ready, see if i can get it on video if it happens again. Little vigorous pitbulls..


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## darren636

I saw a puffer sneak up behind a bigger puffer, bite him and shake it like a dog with a chew toy 
Scary.


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## zozo

It kinda is scary.. It was an hour after feeding time.. Blood wurm, like it gives them a taste of blood and get agresive?? Never seen this before. The one that did bite actualy looks rather shy and sits in it's corner all day, doesn't come out often. This was far from shy..


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## Mortis

I think both the ones you have are female. From what research I remember from when I had a few is that the males tend to have larger black patches and the black has a bit of iridescent/metallic shine to them while females have smaller black spots that are dull matte black


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## zozo

Well Morris thanks, i hope you are right..  Myself i still not 100% confinced they are.. But they are steadely growing strong and healthy.. At the time they have both developed their own territory and oftenly are in dispute about it.. One is developing a darker color than the other.. They are very active and hard to get clearly in focus with that size.

This is the darker one, i wasn't sure but one day it was getting very excited and i thought i saw the chest stripe colorig up, which should be distinct male feature. But as said they are constantly on the move and when i come close rather show me their back then front for a long time. And it could be i'm mistaken about the chest stripe only thought i saw it once, for the rest of the time it's not realy there, only a bit under their chin, which have both.




This is the same one from the side, i have no idea if i see wrinkles behind the eyes, looks a bit like it. Which also should be male feature.
But this one has a much fatter belly than the other..




This is the other one, lighter in color.. Not yet got better pictures. This one is realy shy and immediately moves away from the camera.
For now i managed only to make rather unclear tele shots.. This kinda looks more female to me..




 Still very unclear to me..

This one is just an aw!? picture.. Sorry it's unclear again.. Looks like  little bird if you paint little paws to it..  And also like i see a chest stripe developping still far away..


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## zozo

Here is the chest stripe , this seems to be exclusively male patern.. So i definitively got one male. It's not always show, only when excited for some reason.
Today i noticed this is the one with the lighter color in the above pictures. It constantly dives into the back corner plants when i come with the camera.  That is his home base..

But it showing realy good today.





The other darker one with the more rounder belly could be a girl. Maybe.


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## alto

Is he really shy or just subdominant - if you're up to some fish experiments, remove the more "social" puffer for a couple days (if you  have an alternate suitable tank) & then see how shy guy's behaviour changes ... if he's suddenly out & about, I'd suspect both are males (unless females are likely to be the dominant/territorial fish)

Of course just to be contrary, most dominant blue ram I had was a female - she got her own fiefdom  & the other rams were so much happier 

I'm enjoying this Puffer Journal!


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## zozo

Hi Alto, thanks for that input, i could seperate them without problems, got 3 tanks total. But shy or subdominant, isn't yet not clear to me.. It's actualy just me, when i approach the tank it dives immediately into its corner. While the other which doesn't yet show any clear male sex markers, and could be female immediately comes towards me to see what i'm up to. But if i be very still or move away from the tank the other (male) comes out again..

It funny to see how they do, one has the left side of the tank as it's territory and the other the right, and there is a piece of wood about in the miiddle which seems to be the boundry. And it constantly goed forth and back trying to invade eachothers ground.. As soon as one approaches that boundry area the other comes and stands guard like saying "Your about trespassing" and than the intimidation starts, staring eachother down and circling attacking and chassing. Than the tresspasser dicedes to go and gets chased out. But when he's back on his ground he chases the other back. And constantly they try to sneak in into eachothers space and back stab. Realy low to the substrate looking around the corner of a piece of wood to see and sneek in. But the other already shot it long before and waits behind another piece of wood to pop up in it's way and the game starts over. SO towards eachother their is no real sub or super dominants. It's equal measures. Aand this goes on for a while till they decide to break up and saty an hour on it's own ground or sometimes even together.

I they realy start a fight the barbs intervene and realy bumb into to them to break the fight.. The barbs not territorial but also males fight eachother and other barbs bumb into that fight as well to break it up. Those barbs very much are aware and react to the puffers, but the puffers don't give a damn about the barbs they ignore them and only have eyes for eachother..

It's rather a hillarious combination i made with those 2 spieces together.. Goes very well..  Very much fun with watching it. There also is a daily hour of total tranquility and then every fish is just minding it's own thing grazing around a bit. And then a few get an atitude again and all gather to rumble.  Very active tank i got now. Not sure what there to add, not suitable for little rasboras thats obvious. Glad i waited.. 

Here in that earthworm video i posted, you can see how it goes about. ANd how those little puffers constantly eyballing only eachother. Even during feeding time, one eye on the worm the other eye on the competiotion.


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## zozo

Intresting site, with precise info and a very well and complete explained breeding report.
http://www.zwergkugelfisch.de/index_eng.html

Regarding his info it looks like i'm lucky and have a couple of different sex. Sexing should generaly become possible after 12 weeks.. Males seem to be shy and domestic only come out of their territory to feed or if food is presented. Females seem to be bit bigger and rounder, more outgoing and constantly on the look for food and more easily trained to eat offered food.

Dominant males show the chest stripe (only when in the mood).. My striped puffer does and indeed mostly is in it's territory and rather shy, doesn't accept food as readily as the other is rather a picky eater. The other, indeed is more outgoing is following me and eats offered food even out of the tweezers.

Courtship seems to look more like fighting, described the way i witnesed it. Circling and chassing eachother and even fighting and biting.. Not excactly what i call love, but that's the puffer way.

For now it it looks like boy and girl..

Also seems that new born puffers keep schooling till they reach sexual maturity, then split up and live a solitary life. New born puffers seem to have no gender. The gender gene becomes active in  a later stage. In this young scholing periode the ones that develop male gender first (may occur simultaneously for few) start secreting a hormone to trigger it's siblings to become female. So depending on the goal, separating juvenile puffers before gender is geneticaly established might work counter productive.


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## zozo

markk said:


> I'd be interested to hear how you get on - sounds like we have the same aim - breed some puffers
> 
> Something else I forgot to mention that I've noticed now my puffers are in their new tank. When they're asleep/settling down - they seem to attach/stick themselves to a flat surface - even vertical surfaces such as tank sides and filter tube. Have you noticed this? I can't find much online about it (a couple of references to big marine puffers).
> 
> I don't think I saw it before as in the larger, heavier planted tank they tended to disappear for the night. A bit more obvious in the newly planted low tech...
> 
> Cheers
> Mark



Yup they do!? Realy funny to see, it's like they are realy sleeping, normaly as described their eyes change color from black to blue when you shine light in it. I saw one yesterday evening laying flat on it's belly on a plantleaf after lights out in the back of the tank. I use verry dimmed night light and at first i saw something looking rather strange, i thought there might be something wrong with it. Looked kinda dead in the dimmed night light.. Took a little flashhlight to inspect and see what was going on it's eyes stayed dull and completely still, like there was a lid over it.  And this evening saw it again few inches from the glass on the driftwood on a inclined surface, indeed laying flat on it's belly on the wood and not moving a muscle.

Haha, realy!? Sleeping fish.. They are some tiny special characters those puffers.. 

I realy hope they grow up as sweet as they are now and able to stay in this tank.. Till now they are not intrested in shrimps, not even tiny baby shrimps and noth bothering other fish. Did read some horror stories about these little holigans killing off everything crossing their path when fully matured.


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## zozo

Little update..  I have 2 males.. 
Here see the distinct wrinkels behind his eyes.. That's a typical male feature. 


 

As far as i can say now, a 120 liter tank is definitely to small for 2 puffers of same sex.. Their territory as rather large, the subdominant male was getting frustrated and agresive to other fish he was especialy agressive towards the barbs and biting fins. He had nobody else to pick on and constantly chased away by fatso above. 
He has a temporary home for himself now and getting a bigger place soon. The male on the pic above doesn't yet show this behaivor and is sweet as can be. He is the boss, the big tank is his now..


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## Lindy

That is a good photo showing the wrinkles, I could never get one that good. Have you seen them change shape? I got another 2 hoping they would be girls and take the pressure off the one female I had as he was a bit of a sex pest. They must have been male as my boy went balistic and was flattening himself so he looked coin shaped from the side, pressumably to look bigger as he chased the poor youngsters around the tank. They were immediately removed and rehomed!


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## Greenfinger2

Hi Marcel , One superb photo is that with your new camera.

Sorry to hear about the problems with the puffers  They look so cute I was thinking of getting some. Now reading your thread I am rethinking that as my biggest tank is only 85 liters so that's way to small as they can get aggressive towards each other.

Hope all go's well mate


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## zozo

ldcgroomer said:


> That is a good photo showing the wrinkles, I could never get one that good. Have you seen them change shape? I got another 2 hoping they would be girls and take the pressure off the one female I had as he was a bit of a sex pest. They must have been male as my boy went balistic and was flattening himself so he looked coin shaped from the side, pressumably to look bigger as he chased the poor youngsters around the tank. They were immediately removed and rehomed!



Hi Idcgroomer  thanks.. Few weeks back the wrinkles still didn't show, that's why i thought i had a boy and a girl.. The other doesn't have such a fat belly and more yellow and the chest stripe, but always shy's away from me. This one is realy getting fat and grows well, and has no chest stripe i noticed the wrinkles from this photo this afternoon, so it was kinda dissapointing to see it. This one is realy like a little puppy, it comes immediatly to the glass when he sees me and stay in front of my face a while probably beggin for food, he also eats from the tweezers. If i do not pay attention he goes his own way again after a few minutes. He's the most dominant one and always picking on the other..  Thought it was a grumpy girl, but definitely a boy. With the naked eye the wrinkles do no show that clear, they move to much around to notice. The both grow well, the one in the pick grew the most and changed chape, the other stayed behind a bit only grew a few millilmeter but didn't change much in appearance.


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## Lindy

The wrinkles might get more noticeable. My boys were iridescent and quite beautiful. He was very moody and grumpy while the female used to follow me along the glass. I think she was trying to say " get me out of here, he is a nutter"!

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


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## zozo

Greenfinger2 said:


> Hi Marcel , One superb photo is that with your new camera.
> 
> Sorry to hear about the problems with the puffers  They look so cute I was thinking of getting some. Now reading your thread I am rethinking that as my biggest tank is only 85 liters so that's way to small as they can get aggressive towards each other.
> 
> Hope all go's well mate



Hi Roy thank you  Yes the pic is made with the Fujifilm just a quick snapshot.. Well it aint realy a problem it's just the risk you take with taking couples of puffers. They are just territorial and solitary when adult, the difficulty is the sexing.. But because they are solitary it aint a sad thing to keep just one puffer solo, they realy do not mind. In nature they do the same, only school as juvenile for protection and when sexualy mature they only mate up for reproduction. Even the mating doesn't go without scratches and when done they go solitary again. So 85 liter densly planted for 1 puffer is more than enough and they do not need a mate.

I also noticed i made a wrong choice with putting 2 puffers in the same tank with that Indian High fin barb, these are realy very active fish and constantly playing and chasing eachother. Very curious and always up front to inspect what's going on. They are to active and to cocky and so there for the tank to small for this combination. They just don't mind their own bussines and one puffer was just intimidated by the barbs, i even saw the barbs chalanging the puffer.. But the grumpy puffer has a sharp beak and the barb a long fin. Not the best combination i learned from this.. Never seen such cocky and curious barbs before.. So the less dominant puffer took his frustration out on the barbs. The dominant puffer also isn't realy charmed by the barbs cockiness, but he's luckily not frustrated and he gets respect and the barbs learned the body language by now and back off. And the lesser dominant puffer had to stay among the barbs there was no other place for him, so there was constant confrontation.

Also have the 2 sp. dwarf rasboras, which stay upper region and just mind their own bussines. Puffy doesn't even look at them they never even cross eachothers path. Also the 3 croaking gurami's mind their own bussines and are most of the day in the dense java ferns..

I got 3 tanks now and the 4th is comming this summer, so i knew i took a risk with taking 2 and was prepared to move them if necessary.. And it was..


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## Gill

Was given 3 of these last week as they had not sold for £4. oh how i have missed these characters. such fun to watch, been harvesting snails for them and to watch them scouring every nook and cranny to see what there is to munch on is very entertaining.


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## alto

Thanks for the update - not as hoped  but great information


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## zozo

Indeed Alto, not as hoped but still very educative and intresting to see those characters develop from juvenile to adult and how things work in fish communities..
It's funny to see how they interact and even learn eachothers body language.. For example the puffer thinks he spots some food and races towards it and those barbs pick this up immediately and follow to get a piece of the cake.. And the puffer gets intimidated buy this and charges back at the barbs to defend his personal space. As soon as the puffer takes his threatening posture the barbs backoff and group up like a hungry pack of wolves and still stay close. There is enough space and brooken eyelines in the tank to make this work with 1 puffer, but 2 was to much.. Puffers to territorial and the barbs to nosy.. So the puffer which was aways chased back into the barbs territory was constantly bordered by the barbs. As juvenile he took it well but while maturing he got confident and slowly started to pick fights and get realy fysical and inflicting damage..

I can only recomend people who want to go with puffers to take tank setup and character combination highly into considereation.

The general guideline given in the databases and fan forums is to lean and to average, imho more guiding toward minimum requirments and failure then succes.. I would say, as small as they are but in community at least near the 100 liter if not more per dwarf puffer and very well setup with lots of driftwood and dense planting.


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## zozo

Here a short close up vid of Master Puffy gaurding his most precious possession.. But the darn thing doesn't want to come out when he's around. 
These size of snails can take a few bites before ending completely  on the dinner plate.. anything smaller doesn't survive for long.


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## markk

I've been meaning to post the latest on my puffers and yesterday's tank activity has finally prompted me...

My new puffers have come on really well and it turned out I have 3 females - the original large lady and 2 newbies - and 4 males.

Sexing them really is very simple once they've matured a little. The females are, to put it politely, rotund - almost a traditional puffer shape. They seem to have much larger spots/blotches on their sides and dorsal area with freckled bellies.

The males are much more colourful - most notably around the belly and tail area. The keel is really pronounced, not just the bar on the belly but the shape as well - they are much more 'laterally compressed' - to use the scientific term. The eye wrinkles are there but you only really notice them when the light is at just the right angle.

Unlike Marcel, I've had them in a fairly small tank (ADA 45P) while they're growing - with a view to splitting them up when the aggro starts.

So yesterday afternoon I noticed that there was a lot of activity in the tank. Lots of chasing around (nothing extreme) and all of the fish were 'coloured up' (i.e. the patterning/colouring was really on display). I watched them for a few minutes, thinking about where I was going to re-house some of them - all of my other tanks currently have shrimp 'projects' on the go, so was slightly worried.

Only then did I realise that it was one of the new females who was getting all of the attention and when she started to lie on the bottom and wriggle her way into tight spots around some of the wood/moss/rocks - the penny dropped. For the next hour and a half all four males bickered and squabbled and nibbled away at her - very clearly trying to mate. Very amusing to watch and totally unexpected. No eggs that I can find - though apparently it's normal for the first few attempts to fail. Will also add a big clump of moss today - as apparently the females like to lay inside it.

Will try and get some photos/videos if it happens again.


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## Lindy

My pair did this mating malarky on a daily basis, the male being a real sex pest. My female would end up hiding from him. I would separate a pair if you want to try breeding. They only drop a few eggs each time and the fry are apparently hard to raise as they are so small. It isn''t really fair to expect the female to cope with the advances of 4 males though especially in such a small tank where she can't really get away. The wee b#ggers can get pretty violent when the female doesn't want to play ball.


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## Lindy

markk said:


> - they are much more 'laterally compressed'


I only saw this on my male when he was being very aggressive to 2 new puffers I had added in the hope of spreading the sex pests attention. Unfortunately they turned out to be young males. My existing male (Rambo) set about them, flattening himself presumably to look bigger. If yours look like this all the time it may be because there are so many in a small space.


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## zozo

lol Lindy, reading your reply i feel kinda glad i do not have a female with them and feel lucky i'm ended up with 2 males..  You make'm sound like little perverted rapists.. 


Since i've separated them everyting is going fine now. I left the dominant one in the big community tank and he's behaving very peacefull.. He even gets shased around by the male croaking gourami and kinda avoids him by now. Whe he sees the pumila comming near he goes the other way. He also is very focussed on what i do, he knows i feed him and as soon as he sees me he pufs up gets a darker color and comes up to my face following me around and tries to stay in my vision. I have the idea they know i see them too. I sometimes also see him chase his own mirror image in the back panel, since i have no back panel cover but a black wall behind the tank which makes the back panel mirrors a bit. Then he changes color, much brighter yellow and shape indeed compressing a bit like a bullit and speeds up and down the backpanel like he's chasing himself around.

That other agressive brawler is completely solo now and has his own little jungle with a few cherry shrimps he seems not to bother.. He has a complete different character, he doesn't like me at all and hides as soon as he sees me. He keeps hidden even at feeding time and i have to take my distance before he plans to come out of hiding and take the food. They are very funny fish, sometimes he comes looking very slowly and shy comming around the corner and flashes away again when i'm still to close.

Anyway after observing their character and behaivor for a while and reading your stories and all other info i found.. I'll keep it like that and i'm not going to introduce more puffers. Even if i could get a female for 100% sure i still think they need to be kept solitairy and only introduced during mating time and after the job is done separeted again. It seems according all info i can find, this is how it works in nature as well, living solitary till the heat is on.. I'm not equipt for that and then suppose they mate with succes, i wouldn't know where to place all the youngsters. i would get myself into trouble with all those puffers wouldn't know where i could bring them to.


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## markk

ldcgroomer said:


> My pair did this mating malarky on a daily basis, the male being a real sex pest. My female would end up hiding from him. I would separate a pair if you want to try breeding. They only drop a few eggs each time and the fry are apparently hard to raise as they are so small. It isn''t really fair to expect the female to cope with the advances of 4 males though especially in such a small tank where she can't really get away. The wee b#ggers can get pretty violent when the female doesn't want to play ball.



Yes - I'm keeping a close eye on them but at the moment, everything is peaceful. There was a little more activity yesterday afternoon but apart from that they all seem to be quite docile and well behaved -  though I did a large water change yesterday morning followed by a distraction of a handful of scuds which kept them occupied 

I'm not too worried about feeding any youngsters - plenty of microworms, brine shrimp, moina/cyclops etc to get them going should it happen.



ldcgroomer said:


> I only saw this on my male when he was being very aggressive to 2 new puffers I had added in the hope of spreading the sex pests attention. Unfortunately they turned out to be young males. My existing male (Rambo) set about them, flattening himself presumably to look bigger. If yours look like this all the time it may be because there are so many in a small space.



It was most obvious when they were pumped up the other day - normally it's less obvious. I may just have been lucky with this group or perhaps the relatively small tank keeps the worst of their behaviour in check - or maybe all hell will break lose at some point. I have a tank ready now!

regards, Mark


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## Lindy

I think fry are so small they need infusoria. There is a bit on breeding on the dwarf puffer website. The parents have to be removed after spawning too as they will eat fry.


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## Lindy

Of course now I go to find this website again a few years later and cannot find it! Good luck with the breeding.


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## zozo

The devil has awoken..  .. Few months ago i introduced 3 sprankling gouramis to the tank.. At first it all seem to go realy good.. Never had this particular gourami before and didn't realy know about its fanatic and brutal territorial behavior. Papa Pumila got randy and started chassing everything away even without having a nest. It more looks like being territorial is a part of their way to impress females. Even Puffy was chased around and puffy took it well, went away minding his own bussines elswhere.

But only for a few months.. One day puffy decided it was enough, papa pumila was getting on his nerves and he switched the roles. Now puffy started hunting the pumila's, not only papa Pumila but all 3 of them and only the pumila's.. And he was on a mission "You wanna play, ok lets play, but i then we play my way!!" And his mission was hunting down Pumila's, relentlessly, realy cruising the tank like mad and searching every corner in every plant till he spotted one he chased it all around and it realy looked he was going for the kill.. Till he got tired than went for a hour break and then went back on his mission again. I did read articles stating puffers arent fast swimmers, well they are wrong, if provoked the shoot off like little deadly bullets. Lukely the little pumila's also are very fast and agile and none of them got bitten.. I moved them all to another tank.

Never have seen a fish with such a personality, Pumila's have it, but puffers even more.. He is peacefull towards everything else in the tank.. They do not provoke him and all just mind their own bussines. But when provoked, man they are realy very determined hatefull little devils, not stopping till his problem is solved. And that's kill..

One advice for anyone thinking of getting puffers.. Never put them in the same tank with other territorial fish. And if you do not suffer from MTS i wouldn't take any puffers at all. They are totaly unpredictable and if you are not able to move them or their problem, you got a problem.


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## Lindy

You are so right. Little deadly bullets they are when on a mission. My male was also relentless when he'd put his mind to something. I think people get lulled into a false sense of security too quickly by these guys.

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## zozo

Everybody who sees my tank imediately points to the puffer and says "Man that one is awsome!". It is just not an everyday obvious fish and very handsome little bugger and the way they look with it's little fat belly, his puppy eyes and cool relaxed appearance, bending his tail to balance when it hoovers in place and curiously inspects it's suroundings with it's eyes rolling all over the place. As tiny as he is he realy is a focal point in the tank, even tho there only is one among all other fish. He gets picked out instantly. Everybody thinks he is sooooo cute. 

I think it's a good thing they are still young in the LFS, still skinny and a bit uggly looking. If they were as hansome as the way the grow up in the LFS there would be a lot of people buying it.. Fortunately their baby looks don't make them realy popular.

I'm breeding snails now in the garden, pond and ramshorn snails, got uncountable baby snails already.. I feed him daily and he just loves to kill them. It's a sport and certainly not only food, i throw in 15 baby snails and the moment he spots them he gets excited and kills 10 with in a minute. Funny is, the barbs also like to eat snails but can't crush them.. They pic it up when Puffy is snail hunting and accompany him to clean up his spoils. They co excist perfectly, they seem to respect eachother very well.


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## zozo

Here i caught it by chance on video the first time i saw him attack a Pumila. After that it only got worse, he realy started to hate them more every day.


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## dw1305

Hi all.





zozo said:


> caught it by chance on video the first time


Your stone and Black-fly (Simuliidae) larvae is brilliant.

I wish I had some running water to culture them in.

cheers Darrel


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## zozo

That was also pure chance Darrel  didn't even know they excisted as larvae like that in running water. This is my first year with running water in the garden, first time i saw them i was a bit spooked. Thought it were leaches. The microscope revealed a mosquito larvae.. Now they are about gone and getting less, but from march till end june it was happy meal for the fish, everyday.



dw1305 said:


> I wish I had some running water to culture them in.


Shouldn't be to difficult to create some running water in the garden.. What about 2 buckets and a piece off pvc roof-gutter betweem them filled with river pebbles. a submersible pump and a piece of hose and circulate the water over the gutter from one bucket to the other. Actualy only need 1 bucket..


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## Lindy

I love the way you describe him, eyes rolling all over the place. I'd forgotten just how expressive their eyes are. He is a handsome fish and really reminds me of my male, Rambo.

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## zozo

ldcgroomer said:


> really reminds me of my male



Thanks for your compliment.  You do not have him anymore? 

It is they realy have personanlity and temper and show very intresting behavior.. Now i know his temper and what he's capable of, i have the urge to watch him closely and see what he's up to and not mischievous again.. He is a bit like Achmed the dead terrorist... He can get a temper without a reason, very relaxed and all of a sudden getting excited and grumpy. Racing agressively around the tank like he wants to show off yelling "out of the way here i come!! I kill you!!" Racing towards a barb looking like an attack, but then hits the brakes and is just inspecting looking like a puppy again. Something like "Your not going out of my way?? Ok for now i stop but i kill you next time!".


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## Lindy

I rehomed my pair to another ukaps member with a big jungle tank. The female couldn't hide for longer than 10min from the wee sex pest in the tank I had and back then I didn't have lots of tanks to juggle fish.

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## zozo

Ok, i thought you still had puffers around..  Nice you found another suitable  place for them.. If paired up i'm also convinsed they need very large tank, i'm not sure but honestly under the impression that 200 litre still could be to small for a pair.. The average consensus 60 litre per puffer i read everywhere i have no clue by whom and how this is measured and far from realistic. Who are those people writing such reports? Breeder conspiracy?


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