# Switching Tropica Premium to TNC



## brokeLad (22 May 2020)

Hi all, just a quicky....hopefully! I’ve just switched from Tropica premium to TNC to try and help my java ferns which are turning black. Reason being I believe the TNC has nitrogen unlike the Tropica and that deficiency could be caucusing the poor java fern growth. Thing is....I’m now getting algae on my stem plant leaves....so could the change be the cause?  Cheers peeps


----------



## Kezzab (22 May 2020)

If all youve changed is ferts then it would seem possible.

Youve moved to a fert with macros in, so youve changed the balance in the tank and maybe need to look at some of the other variables like lighting and co2.

What sort of algae are you getting?


----------



## brokeLad (22 May 2020)

I changed about a week ago, pic below shows it, browning on leaves


----------



## Kezzab (22 May 2020)

Can you give any more details on your set up? 

I'm no expert, but id tend to keep an eye on the new growth that comes through and if that is ok and stays algae free you are probably ok. Youll be trimming those stems at some point soon probably anyway.


----------



## dw1305 (22 May 2020)

Hi all, 





brokeLad said:


> I changed about a week ago, pic below shows it, browning on leaves


Those look like diatoms on the _Hygrophila corymbosa_ leaves. 

The new leaves look a bit small and pale in the photo? If they do then you may need a different chelator for iron (Fe).

cheers Darrel


----------



## brokeLad (22 May 2020)

cheers for reply’s....

I did start a journal

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/here-we-go-in-the-deep-end.60343/

tank is about 7 weeks old, 

140L

no co2, 

lights 5hrs a day not sure of power but taped over half the leds a few weeks ago and that seemed to reduce algae well

2ml of premium a day up until about a week ago

now 2ml of TNC a day

2ml of easycarb a day 

4xjulii Cory added about 2 weeks ago

4x cherry
4x amano 

50% water change weekly

i do have some premium left maybe I should revert back to that, as I said I only made the fert change to try and save the java fern....I will post up a shot of the fern.... I think they are shot!!

cheers Craig


----------



## brokeLad (22 May 2020)

Here’s the poor old ferns


----------



## Ray (23 May 2020)

brokeLad said:


> i do have some premium left maybe I should revert back to that, as I said I only made the fert change to try and save the java fern....I will post up a shot of the fern.... I think they are shot!!



Java fern definitely likes a fert with nitrogen so don’t stop the TNC (fixing my yellow leaved java fern is how I learned to dose NPK). If you still have Tropica premium left I’d dose that too, but not at the same time - then you know all the traces are covered too. If you look at the heart of the fern are there tiny new leaves starting to unroll? How do they look? It’s the new leaves that tell you if the dosing is right. If they are coming (and it is slow) you can snip off the worst of the old leaves as they will never recover anyhow.

Here is my Microsorum pteropus ‘narrow’ in a 25l low tech tank dosing just Easycarbo and an NPK fert exactly like you are doing now - so I’m confident you will get there!






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ray (23 May 2020)

Oh, one other thing - don’t dose the TNC daily - put the full amount for the whole week in right after your weekly water change. That will give you higher nutrient levels in the water which is easier for the plants to take it up. 

If you can afford the £ could be worth double dosing the TNC first few weeks until you see things starting to improve.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Zeus. (23 May 2020)

Hers a cost comparison of commercial ferts and DIY ferts for 100 litre tank
(also showing the 'Clone Wizard')





and the cost comparison of making your own DIY clone of TNC complete





Comparison of TPN and TNC complete





TNC complete and TSN




(above are upcoming features of Fert Calculator V1.9)


----------



## brokeLad (23 May 2020)

Ray said:


> Oh, one other thing - don’t dose the TNC daily - put the full amount for the whole week in right after your weekly water change. That will give you higher nutrient levels in the water which is easier for the plants to take it up.
> 
> If you can afford the £ could be worth double dosing the TNC first few weeks until you see things starting to improve.
> 
> ...



Thanks again for everyones I put, I appreciate you all taking the time to reply 👍

I’m quite surprised to hear that I should dose once a week, I was following George Farmers tip to dose daily.


----------



## Zeus. (23 May 2020)

brokeLad said:


> I’m quite surprised to hear that I should dose once a week, I was following George Farmers tip to dose daily.



I would say dosing daily is better as it keeps all levels more constant - as it would be a a large body of water where changes happen slowly.  Think dosing weekly is fine esp when tank is well established. @Witcher was on about this the other day about balance and keeping things as constant as possible is better for the plants. Which is why using RO water has the advantage as you add the same thing every week, water with nothing in it till you add it, are tap water varies with what it has in it over the year some folks more than others.


----------



## brokeLad (23 May 2020)

Ive just realised I had used the Tropica dosing to 2xpumps a day which is 4ml a day......Ive only been putting 2ml a day of TNC......I think I should up to 4ml?


----------



## Ray (23 May 2020)

Zeus. said:


> I would say dosing daily is better as it keeps all levels more constant


More of a topic to debate over a beer than on a forum, but I'd hypothesise it is better to have the nutrients in the water column where the plants can get them.  I doubt plants care about fluctuations once the nutrients are plentiful enough, which is our objective (assuming you subscribe to EI dosing principles, not lean dosing principles).  That's especially the case for @brokeLad  where levels are almost certainly lower than they need to be right now and his mosses and ferns can't substrate feed - they need it all in the water column, so we need to get the nutrient levels up quick.



brokeLad said:


> Ive just realised I had used the Tropica dosing to 2xpumps a day which is 4ml a day......Ive only been putting 2ml a day of TNC......I think I should up to 4ml?



TNC say here on their website:



> 1ml per 10 litres of tank water per week.
> Dose can be increased to 2 or 3 times per week depending on plant growth, water changes etc.
> 
> 1ml per 10 litres of tank water 3x per week will give a dose similar to the Estimative Index levels – Be sure to change 50% of your water once per week to remove organic waste from the plants.



So I would go full EI and dose 42ml/week after water change and after the following water change go to 14ml every other day.


----------



## Zeus. (23 May 2020)

Adjusted the settings to suit your tank 14l 





To have TNC complete get to EI levels you really need the 'double triple' dose aka x6. Which does start to get a little expensive



Ray said:


> More of a topic to debate over a beer than on a forum



Beg to differ, forum much better place as everybody can hear what we are debating and chip in 




Ray said:


> So I would go full EI and dose 42ml/week after water change and after the following water change go to 14ml every other day



So if my tank had a similar issue you would advise me to dose my weekly dose straight after WC (which I would add my tap water has 20-30ppm NO3) then no ferts for rest of week 

Just gives the bacteria in the tank more time to mop up all the excess ferts 'NO3' esp before next WC/ferts are due. Classic EI dosing is 5 or 6 times a week. I dose my tanks 7days a week as its effectless with auto doser. My low tech get an DIY AIO once week (most weeks )


----------



## Ray (23 May 2020)

Zeus. said:


> Beg to differ, forum much better place as everybody can hear what we are debating and chip in



Ok then.
As per your chart TNC Complete adds 6.64 ppm NO3 for 1ml/10l/week.
@brokeLad   has been dosing 2ml of TNC Complete/day to a 140l tank. 
So each 2ml dose increases the NO3 in the tank by 0.95ppm.  
Lets look at 2 scenarios:
1)  Dose 2ml TNC complete/day
2)  Dose 14ml of TNC complete/week after water change.

Blue days are 50% water change days and dosing is assumed to take place after the change.





Or as a graph like this:





So weekly dosing immediately after water change:

a)  Is smoother over the course of the week - which we all agree is desirable.
b)  Leads to higher levels of NO3 at all times which means it is less likely to be a limit on plant growth.


----------



## Zeus. (23 May 2020)

What about the NO3 uptake from plants and bacteria? your graph doesn't account for them.

If he isnt dosing enough NO3 as its gone by the end of the day at least some is available for some off the day, with your once a week dose after a few days it will be all gone! the plants will take it up and the bacteria in the filter and substrate, so the plants will be without for a few days.

Limiting the NO3 to daily dosing the Bacteria will be NO3 limited as well as the plants so they will multiply less so they will be a net less uptake of NO3 by the bacteria over the week so more NO3 over the week for the plants.

Your graph would hold true for an newly planted tank, after a couple weeks it would not, after six weeks it would be well off.


----------



## Zeus. (23 May 2020)




----------



## Ray (24 May 2020)

OK first point: I am highly skeptical that in a normally set up and established planted aquarium there is anywhere where anaerobic conditions prevail and heterotrophic bacteria are using NO3 to respire in any significant quantity.  I think we can assume the only consumer of NO3 in the tank is the plants.



Zeus. said:


> What about the NO3 uptake from plants and bacteria? your graph doesn't account for them.
> 
> Your graph would hold true for an newly planted tank, after a couple weeks it would not, after six weeks it would be well off.


Correct, because we don't know what the plant uptake is without measuring it.  In a newly planted low light tank like this one it isn't much.  This is not a high tech Dutch aquarium.  I re-did my graph to account for plant use and assumed the plants are using ~50% of what is being dosed at 0.5ppm/day.  Note the weekly dosing graph is still smoother than the daily because it eliminates the fluctuation caused by your 50% water change.  Also note more NO3 is available to the plants at any give time.  Of course, my model is limited - over the course of months plant mass will grow and NO3 consumption will increase, but I don't think we can easily model that!







> If he isnt dosing enough NO3 as its gone by the end of the day at least some is available for some off the day, with your once a week dose after a few days it will be all gone! the plants will take it up and the bacteria in the filter and substrate, so the plants will be without for a few days.


Either way our plants would exhibit nitrogen deficiency.  But at least with weekly you could measure and say "hold on - on Monday I dosed 6.64 ppm and now on Friday I have none - I need to add more!".  This is basically making the case for EI - throw more than you need in there, stop worrying about macros at all and count on the regular water changes to put a ceiling on the amount.


----------



## Zeus. (24 May 2020)

@brokeLad myself and @Ray are just discussing the finer details of our fert regimes 

@Ray your graphs don't account for the drop in the concentration during the day so IMO dont give a true image of whats happening.

I will use Zorfoxs calculator to show what I believe

First of all we have to make some assumptions and adjustments to allow me to explain using Zorfoxs calculator and applying a few conversion ratios

1.we will use NO3 for convenience
2. NO3 uptake is constant throughout the day (which it probably isn't)
3. we will say the daily dose is 7ppm, and weekly dose is 49ppm for ease
4. A day will be 7 days in Zorfoxs calculator
5. a week will be 49 days in  Zorfoxs calculator
6. 10 weeks is 490 days in  Zorfoxs calculator

so 7ppm every seven days (daily)




compare with your corresponding dose regime 49ppm every 49 days (weekly)





Who's regime has the biggest peaks and troughs 

(Obviously Zorfoxs calculator isnt designed for this fine tuning and it doesn't handle it well when the plants uptake is greater than the dose, its something I will add to the Fert Calculator thats being worked on for the future)

Obviously if the uptake is less than the dose will be be fine as the NO3 will always be in excess.

However if the weekly uptake is greater than the weekly dose, the plants will be hungry for a few days at a time between dosing, where as daily dosing limited NO3 arrives every day (runs out during day)

So IMO daily dosing will have less daily fluctuations than weekly dosing as the results shows above.


----------



## Molder (24 May 2020)

Zeus. said:


> Adjusted the settings to suit your tank 14l
> 
> View attachment 149056
> 
> ...



Sorry to break in to this topic, but this seems cool. Is it possible to make a calculation with Tropica Specialized Nutrition to dose E.I. for me in my 55l tank? Have been searching for a calculator but couldn't find one exactly. Maybe it's my 'newbieness', anyway..


----------



## Zeus. (24 May 2020)

Molder said:


> Sorry to break in to this topic, but this seems cool. Is it possible to make a calculation with Tropica Specialized Nutrition to dose E.I. for me in my 55l tank?








(If my calculations are correct- which @Hanuman is checking ATM)

you need the double triple dose (X6 standard) to reach E.I. Fe dose, but still a little low in Mg and K


----------



## brokeLad (24 May 2020)

This is getting technical gif a noob! I will take some time to digest! I love the good natured debate. Thanks guys


----------



## Molder (24 May 2020)

Zeus. said:


> View attachment 149101
> 
> (If my calculations are correct- which @Hanuman is checking ATM)
> 
> you need the double triple dose (X6 standard) to reach E.I. Fe dose, but still a little low in Mg and K



Thank you a lot! Having to triple dose means I'll run out of my stock fairly quickly (have 3 bottles at this moment) and I think I'll dose to mixing salts for the first time..


----------



## Kezzab (24 May 2020)

brokeLad said:


> This is getting technical gif a noob! I will take some time to digest! I love the good natured debate. Thanks guys


I think the summary is feed your plants more. The finer points of exactly when and how often are probably less important than the basic 'more' point 😉


----------



## Zeus. (24 May 2020)

Molder said:


> Thank you a lot! Having to triple dose means I'll run out of my stock fairly quickly (have 3 bottles at this moment) and I think I'll dose to mixing salts for the first time..



@zozo is probably the best person to ask where to get the salts from in your neck of the woods


----------



## zozo (24 May 2020)

Zeus. said:


> @zozo is probably the best person to ask where to get the salts from in your neck of the woods



https://www.aquariumbemesting.nl/nl/home


----------



## Ray (24 May 2020)

Kezzab said:


> I think the summary is feed your plants more. The finer points of exactly when and how often are probably less important than the basic 'more' point 😉



👆this is the key advice.

I think Zeus is trying to take me down a fractal rabbit hole with weekly vs. daily vs. hourly dosing and it's now getting so convoluted I'm not sure where it will all end or whether I've got the time to follow him down there!  .

My point stands that given your plants are indicating nutrients are a bit low it might be worth putting a weeks worth of TNC in all at once right after the water change.  By the way, I've always dosed like that - a single weekly dose after water change - because I am a lazy and forgetful aquarist  .  But if you like doing it every day  no harm will come of it - the main thing is that you do it.

[If I had ADA ferts I'd totally dose daily because the bottles are so beautiful and expensive it would be like a zen ritual!]


----------

