# Staghorn problem



## zoon (7 Sep 2010)

Tank - Juwel Vision 450 (450L)
Lighting - 4x 36W T8 with reflectors on for 12h
CO2 - Until recently had pressurised CO2, now have none as wanting to go low tech - seems this was the cause!
Filtration - 2x tetratec ex1200
Fertilisation - Make my own - 3tsp. Potassium Nitrate, 1tsp Potassium Phosphate, 7tsp Magnesium Sulphate made up to 500ml and dosed at 100ml on alternate days with trace being dosed in between.  If this is totally wrong please say - was given "recipe" from someone else as I am a bit clueless about planted tanks!

I am new to the whole planted tank thing (kept malawis for many years and only this year planted the tank out and replaced the brutes with little tetras and angels!) so be gentle if I am making some massive errors!

I have a staghorn issue since stopping the CO2.  Actually it started when I first got the CO2 as I don't think the circulation was good enough.  Now I've decided I'd rather not use it, the algae has become worse.  Mainly on spray bars, but also growing on some of the plants.  Snails/plecs/otos won't touch it and not sure how to get rid of it.  Can't afford to dose liquid carbon - would bankrupt me for tank this size! Considering using hydrogen peroxide, but don't want to kill off my plants as well.  I know I need to increase cicrulation, so on the look out for a koralia on ebay - if anyone has any cheaper alternatives that are just as good, please let me know.

Can anyone else give me, a hopeless newbie, some sound advice from your many years of experience?


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## andyh (7 Sep 2010)

I am afraid you know the answer already!

CO2/flow is your problem. 

Plus your lights are on for a very long period, try dropping the light to 7-8hrs using only two tubes. 

Get your CO2/flow sorted and remove as much of the Staghorn infested plants etc as you can. 
Easycarbo will kill the stgahorn, but its reactive not preventive.

Good luck

Andy


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## zoon (7 Sep 2010)

I don't want to use CO2 anymore.  I found the rapid growth and constant need for pruning inpossible as I also have a new baby.  Much prefer the lower maintainance of slower growth with no CO2!  If I want to go without CO2, do I need to drop the lighting?  I only have abut 1.5wpg with my 4x36W surely?

Will change timer switches now to reduce photo period.  

Is there anything that'll eat this algae?  someone has told me a SAE will, but trying to get a ral one is a bit of a hassle I've heard?


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## Gfish (7 Sep 2010)

Hi,
Couldn't help notice your thread and the decision to do the opposite of what I'm doing right now.
I hope someone else backs me up here, I think the flow is the main issue but you'll continue to have this algae problem without the CO2 and possibly a number of others will follow. Bad flow and circulation is problematic, whether you have a Co2 system running or not.
I think the answer is to stick with Co2 but drop your light level and Co2 injection rate to slow plant growth and at the same time avoid algae by improving the flow and circulation. Maybe over time, move to plants that lend themselves to this level of light and nutrients. As always that awful word 'balance' is all important. Ive tried to run a tank with no Co2 and slow growing plants and its been quite frustrating and in my mind now the main problem has been BBA caused by low or erratic Co2 dosing via Easycarbo. Plants were dying without it, and with it, as well as without it, algae has been a problem.

I wish you luck and hope others can offer words of support and wisdom to aide your ultimate decision.

Gavin

p.s. The only thing I've found to do a good enough job of eating the algae, are a large pair of Scissors :-/


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## dw1305 (7 Sep 2010)

Hi all, 


> As always that awful word 'balance' is all important. Ive tried to run a tank with no Co2 and slow growing plants and its been quite frustrating and in my mind now the main problem has been BBA caused by low or erratic Co2 dosing via Easycarbo. Plants were dying without it, and with it, as well as without it, algae has been a problem.


 I'd agree with the concept of balance, but I think that you can drop the light and stopping adding CO2. I don't use CO2 (or any other carbon addition)and I usually have some Staghorn algae (and BBA on the back glass) on the tips of some of the Java Fern (Microsorum) fronds, but it doesn't usually spread very far or very fast. If your plants are actually dying without CO2 (rather than  not growing very quickly?) it is some other problem, because you don't need elevated levels of CO2 for aquatic plant growth, it just allows them to grow more quickly if other resources (nutrients & light) are non-limiting.

I'll need to work out what your dosing actually produces in the tank in terms of ppm of each nutrient, but at the moment you seem to be adding more magnesium than you probably need, (but this is not a problem), no calcium?  a lot of potassium and not very much nitrogen, so it might benefit from a bit of a re-jig. 

cheers Darrel


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## zoon (7 Sep 2010)

Thanks Darrel - that'd be super if you could help with re-jig.  The water where I am is very very high in calcium so have never added any.  Can't remember levels off top of my head.  But I may need to add some, just assumed I didn't need to with our super hard water. 

When I first planted it out, I didn't use CO2 at all.  But as I planted with cuttings given to me by friends I was annoyed with painfully slow growth, even though plants were very healthy.  Never had any form of algae then!  

So I put together a FE CO2 system to help with the growth - now looking superb, but having this algae issue!  Would much rather go low tech with lower light, no added CO2 and just have very slow growth, as plants are very healthy and certainly not dying without it.

If it helps, I have vallis, java fern, subwassertang, amazon/rose/radicans/chain swords, riccia, hygro, anubias, crypts and some dwarf sag in this tank.  Nothing I thought was particularly demanding.  Oddly enough, my jaa fern hasn't got any algae on it at all - you all mention java fern having the staghorn on it, but it seems my anubias and vallis and chain swords are the only ones affected (along witht he spray bars!)


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## dw1305 (8 Sep 2010)

Hi all, 
You are right If you have hard tap water you don't need to add any calcium, you will also be adding NPK from the tap water, how much will depend upon your water source and supplier, you should be able to get the figures from your water company.

You can actually work out your ppm using JamesC's very useful "James' Planted Tank - Dosing Calculator" <http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/calculator.htm> 

Using the calculator your dosing adds 3.1 ppm K and 4.9ppm NO3 (1.1 ppm N) from potassium nitrate (KNO3), 0.8 ppm potassium and  2 ppm PO4 (0.7 ppm P) from the potassium phosphate monobasic (KH2PO4) and  1.6 ppm magnesium from the magnesium sulphate (MgSO4.7H2O).

I would think that would be fine as a dosing rate, others will probably tell you you need to up it, but I would leave it there and just assess plant colour and growth. If the plants are noticeably paler over time I would just up the KNO3 a little bit.

If you have chemicals that aren't on the calculator, you can still workout the ppm, you need a copy of the periodic table for the RAM of each element (Wikipedia will give you this), the weight in grams added and the dilution rate.

Here is the "magnesium sulphate - Epsom Salts" example, formula is MgSO4.7H2O -  24.3 (Mg) + 32 (S) + (4 x 16(O)) . 7 x ((1(H) x 2) + 16(O)) = RMM 246.3 and the Mg conc. is  24.3/246 = 10% Mg.  

The formula to work out how many ppm you add is: 1 tsp of magnesium sulphate heptahydrate weighs 5.1g (again thanks for JamesC) so 7 tsp. equals 7 x 5.1 = 35.7g and the formula you need is:

  ppm Mg in tank = ((fertiliser weight (g) x 1000) /dilution rate) x  (% nutrient /100)

The dilution rate is 0.1 litre in 450l = 4500
The fertiliser weight is 35.7g in 500ml = (I've doubled this to give 71.4g in 1000ml (1 litre) as if you use 1000 it makes the calculation easier to do without a calculator).

The % Mg is 10% (10.14%)

Which gives (71400/4500) x (10.1/100) = (16.03)/(100) = 1.6 ppm Mg.

Cheers Darrel


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## Brenmuk (8 Sep 2010)

450 l is about 118 US gallons and your total wattage is 144W so your wpg with the 4 tubes is 1.22wpg.

This is quite low light already, although I'm not sure how the wpg rule applies on large tanks. 

I would try to reduce the photo period first and see if things improve then start to reduce the number of tubes.

With such low light you may not need extra CO2 or to add ferts on a regular basis. It might be a flow problem causing dead spots in the tank - have you noticed areas where plants are affected worse? Are you running an air stone?

How much and how frequently do you do water changes? Generally speaking low light/low tech tanks don't need large frequent water changes like high tech tanks.

The easiest way to get rid of the algae that is on the plants is to prune the affected leaves and stems. DÃ©cor and hardware can be removed from the tank and treated with hydrogen peroxide or scalded with boiling water to kill the algae and then scrubbed clean. I wouldn't add hydrogen peroxide to the tank   .


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