# Newbie looking light guidelines.



## Robert Fletcher (17 Oct 2017)

Is there a way to measure the light produced and needed without a PAR meter. The old way of watts per gallon does not apply to LED’s and also different manufactures produce different efficiency in light output. I am also looking on the budget side of things, as I am planning to go to CO2 and my aim would be to grow red plants. 

I am sure a smartphone camera could give some guide. If I take a photo of my tank the current light is not enough. I have to increase the ASA to 3200 in order to cut the shutter speed back whilst still at f2.2. To me is shows not enough light.

Currently I am using this strip from Amazon. This is claimed to be 2000 lumens, 8000K. 

I need a light to penetrate 48 cm so I think this is too low. On the pectech YouTube channel a pleasant comparison was made "Kessil VS Flood Light” and the cheap flood light with Cree LED’s stacked up very well and is in my budget.

Some suggestions appreciated.


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## ceg4048 (18 Oct 2017)

Hello,
        It's very doubtful that your strip from Amazon will have "not enough light".
Inexperienced plant hobbyists are always concerned about not having enough light, when in fact, they should be petrified about not having enough CO2 or nutrition, not having enough flow and having poor distribution of flow and CO2 around the tank, especially down at the 48cm level.

When you buy plants which have been growing in air and then suddenly dump them under water they have difficulty breathing, and when you throw lots of light at them they typically suffocate, then disintegrate into oblivion.

My suggestion is that you keep your strip from Amazon and forget about getting stronger lights for the moment.
I suggest that you learn how to grow plants - how to feed them, how to distribute CO2 and what their maintenance needs are.
The very last thing on your list should be stronger lights, because your plants will care less about how much light reaches 48cm but will care more about how much CO2 reaches 48cm.

No one can tell PAR values without a meter, but if you truly do have low light then that will actually be the GOOD news.

Cheers,


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## Robert Fletcher (18 Oct 2017)

Thank you so much for your reply. You have given me the guidance I need as I was getting more confused as I read different posts. I will work on the CO2. I have Seachem Flourish Complete that I can dose with. Just the advice I needed.


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## Zeus. (18 Oct 2017)

I must admit a decent PAR data sheet of a lights output would be so helpful. I think the only reason they don't do them as it helps keeps us locked in 'The Matrix' which in turn helps sales.
I too have been struggling keeping my carpet happy under 50cm of water. 


Sent from Mountolympus via neural interface


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## tmiravent (18 Oct 2017)

Robert Fletcher said:


> Is there a way to measure the light produced and needed without a PAR meter.
> I am sure a smartphone camera could give some guide.
> Some suggestions appreciated.



- Yes, there is a way to measure light without a PAR meter (but it's not 100% accurate). You can use a LUX meter, with some caution.

- The cameras (phones, slr's, etc) are very accurate measuring visible photons, for reflected light. The plants receive light from the top (direct light) unless you use the camera inside the tank is very difficult to take a good reading.

- The light has it's own way to travel, 'the inverse square law', but.. forget this, just too complex.

Clive advice is sharp, you'll save money and time, believe me!

For having a idea here is a simple image how plants behave with light:




Not all plants behave the same:





Me and Nuno Matos made some 'amateur measurements' with the brand's that we can get here in Portugal, take a look:
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads...ihiros-led-par-data-the-power-of-light.43178/

hope it help's,
cheers


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## Robert Fletcher (18 Oct 2017)

Zeus. said:


> I must admit a decent PAR data sheet of a lights output would be so helpful. I think the only reason they don't do them as it helps keeps us locked in 'The Matrix' which in turn helps sales.
> I too have been struggling keeping my carpet happy under 50cm of water.
> Sent from Mountolympus via neural interface


At this stage I will now forget changing light and concentrate on CO2 and fertiliser. Hopefully I should have the CO2 setup and running within a week. So lets see there I am at in 4-6 weeks.


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## Robert Fletcher (18 Oct 2017)

That's a great bit of research you have done. I was interested in the results of the GU10 and how they would perform in a bank. However if I get to that stage I guess I would be looking for something I could control the color temp. I might have the best light for the plants but something that is not so nice to look at.


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## Cactusface (20 Oct 2017)

Hi All,
          As someone who spent most of hos working life around cameras and such, I used to struggle to get exposures right, before the days of film and so much automation. My trick was a sheet of glass across tha top of the tank, small electronic flast pointing down in to the tank, a light substrate reflected light up to illuminate the fishes underside and all was well. But lots of trials to get the right Aperture, etc. Now that is so easy with what we have today.  Yes ideally you need a waterproof  LUX meter.  Or build a simple meter yourself anyone who's done a bit of electronics could do it, even me! Electrinics is another hobby for me (but I'm 70 and my eyes arn't so good), but you would still need a way to calibrate it or compare it with the real thing. The Inverse Square law TOO complicated?  is it not that for every doubling of distance light travels it loses 70% of it's power (it being a point, it also spreds out, dilutting itself)..
Regards

Mel.


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## Robert Fletcher (20 Oct 2017)

Cactusface said:


> Hi All,
> As someone who spent most of hos working life around cameras and such, I used to struggle to get exposures right, before the days of film and so much automation. My trick was a sheet of glass across tha top of the tank, small electronic flast pointing down in to the tank, a light substrate reflected light up to illuminate the fishes underside and all was well. But lots of trials to get the right Aperture, etc. Now that is so easy with what we have today.  Yes ideally you need a waterproof  LUX meter.  Or build a simple meter yourself anyone who's done a bit of electronics could do it, even me! Electrinics is another hobby for me (but I'm 70 and my eyes arn't so good), but you would still need a way to calibrate it or compare it with the real thing. The Inverse Square law TOO complicated?  is it not that for every doubling of distance light travels it loses 70% of it's power (it being a point, it also spreds out, dilutting itself)..
> Regards
> 
> Mel.


Hi Mel
I do like your story as I can relate to it. Also in that vintage too. I was never good at taking photos but handled the technical side of things well in the darkroom. But as I have said before I am going to take the advice given and just concentrate on CO2 and ferts. All being well I should have all that setup by Tuesday. Like photos I lack the artistic side but I am going for the Jungle look.


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## Cactusface (21 Oct 2017)

Hi Rob,
                  Thanks for you reply, I don't at the moment have any fancy lighting, my Aqua-1 170L has the LED lighting it came with, and CO2  and my Rio125 has 2 x T5 (28w) tubes. I can sure grow BBA! without any trouble??  At the menment I just want to grow good plants, which I seem to manage, but a carpet of something would be nice. I've just tied a few bits of Jave fern "Narrow" to some wood, see how that goes. I only have 6 x 1W leds in my shrimp tank, but then that's only about 8" on water and it works fine, I have a string of LED modules in the old Juwel 60L, which is 40cm deep, it keeps the plants going, but not a lot of actual growing. 3W leds would be better and my next aim. Here's a couple of pics...

Mel.


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## Cactusface (21 Oct 2017)

Here's the 60L lighting...   You can buy these on ebay, in strings of 20 modules (I used a few elsewhere) on ebay, just use a 12v 1Amp+ mains adaptor.


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## Zeus. (22 Oct 2017)

Cactusface said:


> Here's the 60L lighting...   You can buy these on ebay, in strings of 20 modules (I used a few elsewhere) on ebay, just use a 12v 1Amp+ mains adaptor.
> 
> View attachment 110796


A picture off the lit tank with lid close with a few rocks in would help


Sent from Mountolympus via neural interface


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## Cactusface (23 Oct 2017)

Hi Zeus,
                 Yes your so right, I was perhaps looking more on the fitting side of things (i'm bit of aa grrek).they have been in other threads, but here's a couple. Not my best photography, but gives an idea of illumination.
Regards

Mel.


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