# very small bubbles into silicone



## Fred13 (25 Dec 2017)

Hello and Merry Christmas to all!

I tested my tank for leaks yesterday and its still full of water. My problem is that i found extremely small bubbles inside the silicone and i am afraid about that.

This is a custom build from a very experienced engineer who setup tanks for about 25 years. Tank is 100 x 50 x 50cms , 10mm glass.
I v researched internet and i found so many topics about those bubbles. Half of people say this is cosmetic and nothing to worry and the other half say that we should be concern about that.
I am afraid that my engineer will tell me the same too.

No leaks yet, no bending but not peace in my mind.. I am attaching a photo.


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## zozo (25 Dec 2017)

It is cosmetic actualy, but it also means the glass likely wasn't clean enough during assambly. The kit doesn't addhere to greasy/dirty spots. Some might not agree to what i say, obviously you already found comments on the issue which are far apart from eachother.. But the kit layer between the glass panels is what holds the tank together and counters the pressure, the triangular kit bead in the corner is the one that seals it. So as long as the bubbles aint in the corner bead the tank likely stays without leaks. In 99% of the cases repairing a leaking tank is doing a reseal, this can only be done to clean the old corner beads out and reapply new kit beads without taking the tank completely apart. Most people do this with success..

Should you be concerned? In a way you could say, if the constructor failed to do that correct, what more is wrong? So anything beyond perfect carries a risk and requires a thoroughly inspection. Can't get around that. Only thing you can do is visualy inspect the beats in the corners. If these don't show this i wouldn't worry to much, but still regularly give it this visual check. When the tanks stands stable on a level flat surface it aint going to crack or suddenly burst from a few bubbles in the kit seam. It will start leaking droplets. with enough time to take action, and do a temporary repair if it aint in the bottom panel. But with a regular check you will definitively see this comming.

I'm buillding (kitting) tanks myself and not all where flawless but al are still water tight. And i'm a few decades in the hobby and i've seen tanks with easthetic awfull kit jobs but surprisingly still watertight for decades. And also seen tanks which looked flawessly starting to leak.
90% of the time when a tank starts to leak or cracks it is due to a twisted stand.

Anyway, one of my tanks shows the same and i don't realy worry that much i just keep an eye on it without panic.  Only thing is you should be prepared for the "What If" scenario, there never is a guaranty not even with a flawless looking tank. SO when it comes to that we are all in the same boat. Never say never..


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## Fred13 (25 Dec 2017)

zozo said:


> It is cosmetic actualy, but it also means the glass likely wasn't clean enough during assambly. The kit doesn't addhere to greasy/dirty spots. Some might not agree to what i say, obviously you already found comments on the issue which are far apart from eachother.. But the kit layer between the glass panels is what holds the tank together and counters the pressure, the triangular kit bead in the corner is the one that seals it. So as long as the bubbles aint in the corner bead the tank likely stays without leaks. In 99% of the cases repairing a leaking tank is doing a reseal, this can only be done to clean the old corner beads out and reapply new kit beads without taking the tank completely apart. Most people do this with success..
> 
> Should you be concerned? In a way you could say, if the constructor failed to do that correct, what more is wrong? So anything beyond perfect carries a risk and requires a thoroughly inspection. Can't get around that. Only thing you can do is visualy inspect the beats in the corners. If these don't show this i wouldn't worry to much, but still regularly give it this visual check. When the tanks stands stable on a level flat surface it aint going to crack or suddenly burst from a few bubbles in the kit seam. It will start leaking droplets. with enough time to take action, and do a temporary repair if it aint in the bottom panel. But with a regular check you will definitively see this comming.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for your helpful post.
It is now standing on a strong table and between the glass and the table i have a thin piece of polysterene (felizol). This is temporarily only for the test and i am waiting an aqua garden pad which is specifically for this job.
When you tell ''inspect the beats in the corners'' what you actually mean? Sorry ,my English doesn't allow me to fully understand where to look. I will appreciate if you have any photo so i can understand where exactly to inspect.

You calmed me anyway.. The preparing scenario includes my warranty. I have 5 years warranty from the store for silicone openings. He is so sure about his constructions and keeps telling me that 25 years now he has zero tanks that leaked. Of course i cant never be 100% he says the truth..
Sarpjik who liked this post i think he had the same issue about one of his tanks. I found his topic while researching about this.

Thank you!


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## zozo (25 Dec 2017)

Fred13 said:


> When you tell ''inspect the beats in the corners'' what you actually mean?



Red is the kit seam between the glass panels holding the tank together providing the strength.
Blue is the kit bead in the corner sealing it.




Seen a corner from top view imagine it looks bit like this



Red is the 0.5 to 1mm thick kit seam between the glass. Blue is the extra kit bead sealing it. So as long the blue bead is in perfect condition it wont leak no matter the bubbles in the seam..

But if you still have contact with the builder and he's so sure about his professionality and waranty. I still would definitively return the tank and ask him to do a real professional job for the money..Estheticaly it's a bust you don't have to accept, i wouldn't pay a pro for this. For an amateur this is a forgiving minor flaw, you forget to look at after a month.. But for a pro this is just beeing sloppy, no excuses, and a pain in the neck imho. If you pay for slopwork they will never learn and only think they always get away with it. This should not happen after 25 years tank building..


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## markk (25 Dec 2017)

I think realistically this is both cosmetic and structural. It is probably not significant but that joint will not be as strong as it could be - maybe only a few % weaker but weaker nonetheless.

For a custom job from an experienced builder, I wouldn't accept it.

Regards, Mark

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk


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## Tim Harrison (25 Dec 2017)

Aside from structural integrity worries this would annoy the heck out of me and I'd reject it on aesthetic grounds alone, especially if the builder is supposedly professional. There is no excuse, it's just sloppy work.


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## Fred13 (25 Dec 2017)

zozo said:


> Red is the kit seam between the glass panels holding the tank together providing the strength.
> Blue is the kit bead in the corner sealing it.
> View attachment 111953
> 
> ...


I am attaching you as many photos i can. Unfortunately , i only have a phone camera now and because of new water there are hundreds of micro bubbles and this is somehow distracting... Sorry for the quality, i hope you can understand the crucial things you are mentioning above.


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## Fred13 (25 Dec 2017)

The other sides of the glass btw are totally clean not even 1 bubble.  I mean if you look the glass not from the front but from the other side.


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## Fred13 (25 Dec 2017)

The other sides of the glass btw are totally clean not even 1 bubble. I mean if you look the glass not from the front but from the other side.


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## zozo (25 Dec 2017)

The rest of the pictures don't say much to me i'm sorry.. The one with the bubbles is pretty obvious.. And as said also pretty obvious he din't clean the glass thoroughly enough, else this wont happen. A professional should know this. From the OP i couldn't realy make it it was a new buld other than a custom build, but not when it was build. If it's a fresh new build don't accept it, rather return it. 

In my case the bubbles apeared after 2 years running, not as obviously as yours but i also have a few. i see foggy condensation behind the glass from the moist that went in during cleaning sesions. it's my own build and i'm pretty confident that the tank doesn't hold enough force to call it a flaw in instructional integrity. All the weights is on the bottom panel and verticaly, sideway pressure aint so much. But never the less it shouldn't have it. Especialy not if professionaly build.

In this case constructional integrity yu just do not trust it in the living room is still a darn good argument, blabla about 3 year warranty and never had a leaking tank in 25 years doesn't say zip. He shouldn't have bubbles the last 24 years.. More important does he also cover the additional expenses after 2 years if you prove him wrong.. Probably not..  Don't fall for salesman sweet talk, don't accept that tank.

I only can say, if that doesn't work out because the guy you bought it from is a crook. than you still can use the tank imho.. Than lick your wounds and don't look at the bubbles to much t drive you nuts.


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## Fred13 (25 Dec 2017)

zozo said:


> The rest of the pictures don't say much to me i'm sorry.. The one with the bubbles is pretty obvious.. And as said also pretty obvious he din't clean the glass thoroughly enough, else this wont happen. A professional should know this. From the OP i couldn't realy make it it was a new buld other than a custom build, but not when it was build. If it's a fresh new build don't accept it, rather return it.
> 
> In my case the bubbles apeared after 2 years running, not as obviously as yours but i also have a few. i see foggy condensation behind the glass from the moist that went in during cleaning sesions. it's my own build and i'm pretty confident that the tank doesn't hold enough force to call it a flaw in instructional integrity. All the weights is on the bottom panel and verticaly, sideway pressure aint so much. But never the less it shouldn't have it. Especialy not if professionaly build.
> 
> ...



Thank you very much my friend for helping me.. Bubbles look worse at photos because of the flash and general focus. My biggest concern was the safety. As you say aesthetics are always important especially if you pay for it.
I am pasting a link with some of his jobs just to take an idea.. We are talking for tanks up to 6500 liters.. I cant understand how he left the glass without cleaning it especially with his experience on these.
Now its Christmas and i cant reach him but i will definitely reach him at Wednesday. He is in general kind and social so i hope he will explain everything about it and offer something. If he does not offer something like reseal but guarantee the safety i ll probably use it and forget about those bubbles in time..

See here  http://www.amazonios.gr/menu/96/oi-doyleies-mas.html


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## zozo (25 Dec 2017)

i think a very valid argument with some leverage is that you got public for advise about this and he's now advertising with this on a public forum. And quite a rather large and very popular international community. Worth mentioning to him that this community advised not to accept it.


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## Fred13 (26 Dec 2017)

zozo said:


> i think a very valid argument with some leverage is that you got public for advise about this and he's now advertising with this on a public forum. And quite a rather large and very popular international community. Worth mentioning to him that this community advised not to accept it.



He answered me via mail because its Christmas and his store is closed.
'' Hello and Merry Christmas! Those bubbles are from the expansion because of the pressure i put on.  There are no worries about the structural integrity of the tank. However i am here for everything you need''.

And my answer to that email
''Hello and Merry Christmas! Sorry for emailing into holidays but i saw that and got afraid about it. I had various chats in a well known forum and they told me that this may has issues at the future. It is also a cosmetic thing that to be honest i dont really care that much but still. Do you believe that you should reseal it in order to be 100% sure about its safety ? I can take over the cost of shipping.''

And now i am waiting for his response. The bad thing is that he is about 5 hours away from my home. The plus is that he is kind and cooperative.


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## Fred13 (26 Dec 2017)

Something weird is that many of the bubbles are now vanished (!).. It is 2 days now that is filled and it seems that something like 40% of the bubbles are not there anymore. Really weird...Anyway i will have a phone chat with him tomorrow and i believe that everything will be fine.
Sarpjik i saw your old thread about the same issue. Did the tank worked properly? Is it still working?


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## Sarpijk (26 Dec 2017)

Hello, as you have already seen I had the same problem with a  60 litre tank I siliconed myself. In my case the bubbles were only visible only when the tank was full of water. When the tank was empty no bubbles could be seen.

Anyways I decided to attach plastic brackets on the corners to cover the bubbles. From your pictures I don't really see anything worrying but on the other hand I personally would not accept sth like this from a professional!

My tank has been running still!


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## Fred13 (26 Dec 2017)

Sarpijk said:


> Hello, as you have already seen I had the same problem with a  60 litre tank I siliconed myself. In my case the bubbles were only visible only when the tank was full of water. When the tank was empty no bubbles could be seen.
> 
> Anyways I decided to attach plastic brackets on the corners to cover the bubbles. From your pictures I don't really see anything worrying but on the other hand I personally would not accept sth like this from a professional!
> 
> My tank has been running still!


Thank you Sarpjik , your thread was the first i found when i googled about that 
Yes i fully understand.. We cant forgive mistakes to pros and thats why we pay them. I dont know if i will finally forgive him about this and move on, it depends on the tomorrows phone call. If he was near me and not 470km away i would 100% ask for a reseal and a test to be sure that there are no bubbles. Unfortunately, he is on the other side of country :/
I will keep you updated about that!
I am happy your tank is up and running !


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## Fred13 (27 Dec 2017)

So i finally talked today with the manufacturer.
First of all, he is sad  because of the cosmetic part. He told me that he wants his jobs to be flawless. It is the second time that he faces an issue like this . He believes that those bubbles wont make the tank leaks and i should not be afraid of it. He said sorry about the cosmetic part though...First tank still running after years as he mentioned.
Anyway, because of our distance ( 470 km away) we decided to proceed as it is and if any leak occurred at the future he will take the train by himself to come home and fix it.  That is a deal for the next 5 years and this is the silicone warranty he gives.

There is something weird though i cant explain and he couldn't either. Many of the bubbles seem to disappear day by day... It is like 30% less bubbles than first day. How is that possible? Is there any chance that cold water did that because of the expansion and the contraction of the tank? I filled the tank with a very cold water coming from an external hose , i believe something between 5 and 7 degrees Celsius. I really cant explain that.


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## zozo (27 Dec 2017)

Fred13 said:


> How is that possible? Is there any chance that cold water did that because of the expansion and the contraction of the tank?



That could be the only logical explanation.  But than as far as i know it should be the glas..  Silicone doesn't realy harden nor soften in between -40°c to +180°. If it shrinks when colder it should harden, since it doesn't it likely doesn't shrink significantly enough. But glas expands +/- 0.8mm/m at 100°c temp difference. That's also aint that much but still would be around 0.2mm at 25° temp difference. That could be enough to squeeze the gap small enough to make it dissapear for the naked eye. 

If that's the case you likely see them reappear when you heat the tank up again to ambient temperature or above.


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## Fred13 (27 Dec 2017)

zozo said:


> That could be the only logical explanation.  But than as far as i know it should be the glas..  Silicone doesn't realy harden nor soften in between -40°c to +180°. If it shrinks when colder it should harden, since it doesn't it likely doesn't shrink significantly enough. But glas expands +/- 0.8mm/m at 100°c temp difference. That's also aint that much but still would be around 0.2mm at 25° temp difference. That could be enough to squeeze the gap small enough to make it dissapear for the naked eye.
> 
> If that's the case you likely see them reappear when you heat the tank up again to ambient temperature or above.


Hello Zozo, hello again to all.
We finally decided to ship the tank back to seal it again. Not for the bubbles. The bubbles should be just temperature issue and that is why after the water got into room temperature bubbles started to vanish.
The problem is the photo i am attaching you, the extra seal. It seems that in some point it stops abuts to the glass but its in the air. I sent him the photo, he didnt get upset that this is a  problem or something but he offered me the chance to seal it again. Not from scratch since it is maybe dangerous for the panels but sealing again.

Please look at this photo. If this is not a problem tell me so i dont lose time sending it back for resealing and pay for packaging.
If this is a problem i will send it tommorow
Thank you again


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## zozo (27 Dec 2017)

The problems with pictures is, you know what you're looking at, for us it is to flat to see what's realy going on. i stand by, send it back and let him fix it. 
Good luck..


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## Fred13 (27 Dec 2017)

zozo said:


> The problems with pictures is, you know what you're looking at, for us it is to flat to see what's realy going on. i stand by, send it back and let him fix it.
> Good luck..


Do you see the gap in the dark photo? Between seal and glass? Is it a problem or its only me ?
Because of no experience i may see wrong things that havent problem.


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## Fred13 (28 Dec 2017)

Because of his high professionalism he will come by himself into my place to inspect and fix wherever is needed.
He will take the train which is 4 hours away of my place . I offered to help him at his transport fees. 
A nice movement from him and he deserves a bravo.


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## zozo (28 Dec 2017)

Fred13 said:


> Do you see the gap in the dark photo? Between seal and glass?


Oh yes now i see, now you mention what to look for. \there is a lot going on in the pic with all the background colors.
\that gap realy looks alarming.. \this tank is probably assambled by an apprentice and this one forgot to clean it first.


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## Fred13 (28 Dec 2017)

zozo said:


> Oh yes now i see, now you mention what to look for. \there is a lot going on in the pic with all the background colors.
> \that gap realy looks alarming.. \this tank is probably assambled by an apprentice and this one forgot to clean it first.


Yes, that gap alarmed me more than anything else. Bubbles started to fade off and i get over the cosmetic thing. But this gap between the seal and glass is something must revised. I see rimless tanks like ada with extremely thin seals but i cant risk it.
Thats the photo i sent to him and  immediately told me he will organize his schedule and come down here to inspect and fix it.
I believe that he will scrap off this side , clean it and reseal it. I guess he doesnt have to scrap off all the panels.


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