# Rams and Excel



## Midnight (26 Dec 2008)

Hi
Since (over)dosing Flourish Excel to get rid of BBA I have lost two of my four blue rams. A third is now also looking quite ill. The symtoms are bulging eyes, darkening colour and general lethargy before expiring. 

Has anyone experienced Excel causing such problems or is this just coincidence and the fish have some disease. 

None of the other fish seem to be affected but I'm a bit concerned as my daughter bought me a pair of Apistogramma agassizi for Christmas and would hate to 'murder' them at this festive time.


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## aaronnorth (26 Dec 2008)

Dose at the reccomended level, it will still kill the BBA although it will just take a bit longer.


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## Ed Seeley (27 Dec 2008)

Bulging eyes sound like a bacterial issue.  Did the fish also bloat slightly in the body too?  A lot of rams bred in the Far East are of rather poor quality and succumb to various bacterial maladies in a general community tank.  They really often do better in a more specialised acidic, warmer set-up.  If you can get good quality stock though they are great fish.

To make sure the Apistos don't fall the same way give the tank a good clean and keep a close eye on them.  Some Czech bred agassizi can go the same way as I have found to my cost when I lost a gorgeous male Double Red recently.


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## Midnight (27 Dec 2008)

Ed Seeley said:
			
		

> Bulging eyes sound like a bacterial issue.  Did the fish also bloat slightly in the body too?


No apart from the bulging eyes there colour went quite dark.


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## Ed Seeley (27 Dec 2008)

Midnight said:
			
		

> Ed Seeley said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Bloating is sometimes associated but not always.  Did you have the rams for a long time before they died or just a few weeks or so?


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## Midnight (27 Dec 2008)

Ed Seeley said:
			
		

> Bloating is sometimes associated but not always.  Did you have the rams for a long time before they died or just a few weeks or so?



I've had them a few months now. Here's a photo of a sick one





I've been very lucky so far with fish I still have all the original stock I bought from Harrogate Aquatic last Easter. I bought the rams from my local branch of Maidenhead Aquatics.


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## Ed Seeley (27 Dec 2008)

It's hard to say definitively from that photo but I'd say that was a bacterial infection.  I'm afraid once it goes this far there is very little you can do.  My only real success with treating fish has been as soon as they go lethargic to put them in a quarantine tank, raise the temperature to 30oC (with lots of aeration and a matured filter) and treat with salt and Melafix.  IT doesn't always work but I've saved a couple I spotted in time.


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## Midnight (27 Dec 2008)

Ed Seeley said:
			
		

> .....but I'd say that was a bacterial infection.


Do you think it will affect the agassizii ?


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## Ed Seeley (27 Dec 2008)

You should be fine.  Be especially careful if the fish get any damage.  To help prevent it up your water changes and try and remove every little bit of detritus in the tank, if there is any.


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## Midnight (27 Dec 2008)

Thanks I'll do that.


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## fishgeek (28 Dec 2008)

bilateral bulging eye's just suggests that there is a systemic problem, not sure how you can suggest it is bacterial

exopthalmus or bulging eye's just means there is accumulation of gas(as seen in gas bubble disease) or more commonly inflammatory oedema behind the eye
this can be associated with any type of infection - bacterial, viral or fungal - water chemistry would be a concern in any ocular condition( masses growths, trauma i would statistically suggest more typically unilateral)

darkening of colour is a mood related condition as most pigmentary changes in fish are neurally controlled, when the fish is feeling unwell/stressed for whatever reason it will darken

excel is an alcholated aldehyde, and as such is not too dissimilar from formaldehyde... ie it could be considered toxic to the fish , i can not say for certain at what levels, i am sure that seachem would be able to give you some factual information on safe levels for fish

i would be tempted to guess coincidental though rather than causal

andrew


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## Ed Seeley (28 Dec 2008)

fishgeek said:
			
		

> bilateral bulging eye's just suggests that there is a systemic problem, not sure how you can suggest it is bacterial
> 
> exopthalmus or bulging eye's just means there is accumulation of gas(as seen in gas bubble disease) or more commonly inflammatory oedema behind the eye
> this can be associated with any type of infection - bacterial, viral or fungal - water chemistry would be a concern in any ocular condition( masses growths, trauma i would statistically suggest more typically unilateral)



I've had it a couple of times in dwarf cichlids unfortunately, but I admit I don't know whether the cause would actually be bacterial, viral or fungal.  I was told it was probably bacterial by some people with far more experince of dwarfs than me and have have seen no reason to argue with them!  Knowing how opportunistic bacteria are I imagine that whatever the initial cause they would certainly be a contributory factor once the initial cause progressed wouldn't they?


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## fishgeek (29 Dec 2008)

eye's tend to be self perpetuating problems
as they are in a confined space and attached to the optic nerve at the back

any inflammation leads to a squeeze within the socket and pressure and stretch issue's which then cause more inflammation

i think bacteria get blamed for everything with very little proof... even experienced keepers rarely do anything to confirm a diagnosis... they just guess and make sounds that seem more knowledgeable

without further testing we wont know, as bacterial are ubiquitous in the aquatic enviroment i'm sure you could fine some on testing whether they are pathogenic and or the exact aeitology though would still require investigating

i agree that it is a common problem, bought some rams, they died with vague signs ... i have heard that blamed on varied things... nitrates, ramirezs virus , bacteria ... all sound plausible at the time


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