# A few shrimp questions . . .



## Wookii (29 Nov 2019)

I'm looking to add some shrimp to our planted 60cm tank which is currently in the set-up stage, and I have a few questions if anyone can help:

1. I'd like a bit of variety, so was thinking of having maybe 4 x small Amano, 6 x Cherry, and 2 x Crystal red. Does that seem an acceptable quantity for a heavily planted 60cm tank? Or should it be more/less?

2. Fish will be added in due course (Platies, Guppies and Cory's and maybe 4 x Ottos - my sons choices), starting with the guppies which will be added at the same time as the shrimp - I've read all these species are compatible with shrimp - would everyone concur?

3. Do plants need to be growing strongly prior to adding the shrimp, or can they be added sooner after planting?

4. I've had Amano shrimp in the past (16 years ago when I had planted tanks), and used to get the occasional suicidal jumper even jumping out of the 260L tanks I had back then. Do all shrimp do this, or is it mainly the Amanos?

5. Can anyone recommend me online sellers that supply good quality shrimp. ProShrimp are about half an hour away from me, so that could be an option, though the prices seem high. Any other suggestions? Are eBay purchases worth considering, or is that considered risky?

Thanks in advance, Gareth


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (30 Nov 2019)

1. I would probably be looking to get an equal number of cherry and crystals. 2 crystals seems like little margin for error... what if one doesn't survive acclimation or what if you don't get one of each gender. The won't interbreed which is good as they are different species. Amanos being larger, 4 sounds about right to me in a 60cm.

2. I believe platies can eat shrimplet but many species do and your tank is heavily planted so I think you will probably be ok. Don't know if anyone has more direct experience...

3. They can be added soon after planting (and will help with any decaying plant matter). You may wish to supplement their food whilst biofilms etc grow and you definately want to be sure of a stable cycled system as they are very sensitive. Technically yes, practically i would play it safe.

4. All species will climb out the tank. I've seen a video of an Amano climbing directly up the glass  though suspect they can more readily climb silicone in the corners. Cherries and crystals will do the same too. Tight fitting lid and minimising any plants too near the surface/edges can help but likely won't prevent. Good water quality and no predators also helps.

5. Not used ProShrimp personally but always heard good things from them. If they are close i would use them. I always find shrimp expensive l... thats just me...


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## david boden (30 Nov 2019)

Gareth----I agree with Matt on questions 3,4,5.
Question 1 --may be best answered if you research water parameters for Crystal and Cherry shrimp----they're very different,   though that doesn't mean it can't be done I suppose.
Question 2--  " Me Platie,    you shrimplet,    me eat you ! "
Good luck anyway.


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## MJQMJQ (30 Nov 2019)

Yea guppies and platies will eat shrimplets so with the heavily planted tank yr shrimps will end up hiding.CRS are rather picky when it comes to water quality but u can try.Yamatos will grow larger and bully other shrimp esp at feeding time.Would recommend yamatoes.

Also buy from reputable sellers cheap purchases are never good they can end up in really bad shape due to bad packing.Healthy shrimp are worth more than sulking shrimp as they have less chance of dying.


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## Wookii (30 Nov 2019)

Thanks for the feedback guys - so it looks like anything other than Amanos are a no go with Platy’s then!

The fish are my sons choice, but on speaking to him this morning, I’ve managed to convince him that small tetras might be a better way to go - he loves the look of Cardinals and Embers, so it might be a none issue now.

On the water requirements for Cherry and CRS, I must admit I didn’t consider that they might have different requirements - my mistake!

So from reading a couple of sites, water parameters seem to vary from site to site, particularly for the CRS, but I have gleaned the following approximations:

Cherry’s seem to have a fairly wide tolerance:

Ph: 6.2 - 7.5
Temp: 15-27 C
TDS: 100-250ppm

CRS appear to have narrower requirements:

Ph: 6.0 - 7.0
Temp: 21-24 C
TDS: 100-200ppm

There seems to be a bit of my overlap, but it looks like the temps for the CRS are a little low to be compatible if the tank is to be in the 25-26 C range.

As for TDS, our tap water is around 450ppm to start with, before you add ferts and biological content -
So I don’t really know what to think on that?


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## david boden (30 Nov 2019)

Hi--if you're going to use your own treated tap water with it's tds for changes,   I'd say you've pretty much got to stick with Neocaridina shrimp.
Choose your favourite colour, and build a colony of that type only.
Mixing colours normally leads to dilution of the genes back to brown type shrimp further down the line ---not always I've read,   but usually so.


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## SRP3006 (30 Nov 2019)

Wookii said:


> Thanks for the feedback guys - so it looks like anything other than Amanos are a no go with Platy’s then!



I keep a growing population of cherry's and platys in my tank, plenty of hiding places but the two species feed along side one another, or so I have found.


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## david boden (30 Nov 2019)

Well there ya go folks---there's always variance in this hobby, and all sorts of things occur to boil your brain .----


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## dw1305 (30 Nov 2019)

Hi all, 





Wookii said:


> Cherry’s seem to have a fairly wide tolerance:


They do better in harder water, if your water gets <"too soft"> then you may run into problems. 

cheers Darrel


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## MJQMJQ (30 Nov 2019)

Wookii said:


> Thanks for the feedback guys - so it looks like anything other than Amanos are a no go with Platy’s then!
> 
> The fish are my sons choice, but on speaking to him this morning, I’ve managed to convince him that small tetras might be a better way to go - he loves the look of Cardinals and Embers, so it might be a none issue now.
> 
> ...


Cardinals will grow quite large embers are smaller.I have seen my mosquito rasbora pecking at my shrimplets so I had given it away.Also had trouble getting the rasboras on flake or pellet food they very much preferred live food eg worms basically whatever they could fit inside their mouths.Was told mosquito rasboras are as shrimp safe as u can get.The other being white cloud mountain minnows.If yr shrimp population isnt large enough they will end up hiding too if u decide to go with cardinals.(at least 10-20)


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## Conort2 (30 Nov 2019)

david boden said:


> Hi--if you're going to use your own treated tap water with it's tds for changes,   I'd say you've pretty much got to stick with Neocaridina shrimp.
> Choose your favourite colour, and build a colony of that type only.
> Mixing colours normally leads to dilution of the genes back to brown type shrimp further down the line ---not always I've read,   but usually so.


Not necessarily, I have Caridinia sp tangerine tiger in London tap water and they breed like rabbits. Actually breed faster than the cherrys they share the tank with and their population has overtaken them. They will look pretty good with alongside a blue neocaridinia for contrast.

cheers

Conor


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## david boden (30 Nov 2019)

OK Conor, --I say " not always "---you say " not necessarily ".
We seem to be like-minded.-------
I'm pleased you're having success, and enjoying the journey.


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## MJQMJQ (1 Dec 2019)

Conort2 said:


> Not necessarily, I have Caridinia sp tangerine tiger in London tap water and they breed like rabbits. Actually breed faster than the cherrys they share the tank with and their population has overtaken them. They will look pretty good with alongside a blue neocaridinia for contrast.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Conor


Neos of diff colour will interbreed.Caridina will not interbreed with neos so its still safe.


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## david boden (1 Dec 2019)

Conor---apologies for not reading your post correctly.
You were talking about the success of your Caridina in London water, --  not mixing Neo colours, as I was referring to.
_Your success just shows how  different tanks and livestock react in different ways to a particular circumstance._


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## MJQMJQ (1 Dec 2019)

Yep if u wanna keep different types of shrimps it would be nice if u could research the water params and try to march them.One type of shrimp will breed faster than the others.Also try to get from a local breeder as theyre much healthier.


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## Wookii (1 Dec 2019)

Thanks for all the input guys. I have to admit to being a little confused.

So am I correct in my understanding that there are two main genus of shrimp:

Neocaridina - which includes Cherry and the various blue and yellows etc. These shouldn’t be kept together otherwise they’ll breed back to natural colourations?

Caridina - which includes Bee, Taiwan, Crystal and apparently Amano.

What I can’t seem to obtain is consistent information on is what the water requirements for each species within each genus - assuming it differs?

Can anyone point me to an online resource that is known to be accurate for the water requirements of each species?

I’ve kept Amanos in hard water in the past without any issues, and it looks like Cherry’s are fine in hard water as mentioned above. So are any of the other Caridina species suitable for similar water conditions, if the Crystal Red isn’t?


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## tam (1 Dec 2019)

Amanos are easiest to keep, cherries middling and crystals fussiest. I'd start with the first two and if it goes ok, then consider the later.


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## david boden (1 Dec 2019)

Wookii---you're not confused, you are spot on about the two distinct genus of shrimp, and their variations.
With regard to an internet source of info,  ,www..theshrimpfarm.com is quite well regarded I believe.
Although as shown in a post  above by Conor, --all guidelines are only that, and can be somewhat fluid.
I have never kept Taiwan type shrimp myself, but I've read that they are particularly reliant on the correct parameters ( too much trouble for me ! ).
Try the website I've mentioned, plus, ( Youtube has lots of videos as well if you look for shrimpkeeping ), and then decide what's best for your own situation


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## Wookii (1 Dec 2019)

Thanks for the responses guys.

I’m somewhat embarrassed to admit it, but it looks like I had my newly acquired TDS meter set to measure the conductivity rather than TDS. Now I’ve corrected that, TDS is actually coming out at around 225ppm (for treated tap water).

Though our water (in Nottingham) is always thought of as being fairly ‘hard’, 225ppm appears to be more reasonable and within the range of the recommendations for a number of shrimp.


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## tiger15 (1 Dec 2019)

All tds meters measure conductivity as a proxy for tds.  Actual tds determination requires gravimetric measurement by evaporating H2O and weighing the residues, a tedious method not commonly used.

I’ve seen mixing different color Cherry shrimp nicely done, male only, so they won’t breed but need to be replenished regularly.


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## Wookii (1 Dec 2019)

tiger15 said:


> All tds meters measure conductivity as a proxy for tds.  Actual tds determination requires gravimetric measurement by evaporating H2O and weighing the residues, a tedious method not commonly used.
> 
> I’ve seen mixing different color Cherry shrimp nicely done, male only, so they won’t breed but need to be replenished regularly.



I don’t fancy my chances in obtaining single sex shrimps from on online supplier. I think my best bet is as you suggested - get a few Amanos and some Cherry’s and see how we go. If the Cherry’s breed, I can assume they are sufficiently comfortable and consider adding 4 of another species.

Assuming that happens, and given my water conditions of 225ppm tap water, CO2 injection so pH in the 6.0-6.5 region (tap water 7.0), temperature around 25 degrees C - what other shrimp species might be worth considering?


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## MJQMJQ (2 Dec 2019)

Wookii said:


> Thanks for all the input guys. I have to admit to being a little confused.
> 
> So am I correct in my understanding that there are two main genus of shrimp:
> 
> ...


They can adapt to different water given time.Find local breeders whose water matches yr water profile.Also the shrimp come in different quality so cherries are easier than fire red which is easier than painted red.Generally the darker the colour for neos the more sensitive it will be.For crystals the more colour coverage on legs and more white and if they are pure red line or pure black line will be harder to keep.Most crystal reds are mixed with white or golden crystals to give them more "white".


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## MJQMJQ (2 Dec 2019)

Wookii said:


> I don’t fancy my chances in obtaining single sex shrimps from on online supplier. I think my best bet is as you suggested - get a few Amanos and some Cherry’s and see how we go. If the Cherry’s breed, I can assume they are sufficiently comfortable and consider adding 4 of another species.
> 
> Assuming that happens, and given my water conditions of 225ppm tap water, CO2 injection so pH in the 6.0-6.5 region (tap water 7.0), temperature around 25 degrees C - what other shrimp species might be worth considering?


Babaulti shrimp and tiger shrimp caridina.


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## Wookii (2 Dec 2019)

MJQMJQ said:


> They can adapt to different water given time.Find local breeders whose water matches yr water profile.Also the shrimp come in different quality so cherries are easier than fire red which is easier than painted red.Generally the darker the colour for neos the more sensitive it will be.For crystals the more colour coverage on legs and more white and if they are pure red line or pure black line will be harder to keep.Most crystal reds are mixed with white or golden crystals to give them more "white".





MJQMJQ said:


> Babaulti shrimp and tiger shrimp caridina.



Thanks for the continued input. ProShrimp are half an our away from me, so I will probably take my son for a trip to go and see them over the Christmas break - they should have similar tap water to us (though they may use RO water instead - I will contact them to find out). 

The Cherry shrimp on their website look a little 'anaemic', so I'll have to see if we can 'cherry pick' (pun intended!) some darker ones out if visiting in person. Failing that I may have to consider stepping up to the dark variants (Sakura or Bloody Mary) - though its an expensive risk at that price!


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## MJQMJQ (2 Dec 2019)

Wookii said:


> Thanks for the continued input. ProShrimp are half an our away from me, so I will probably take my son for a trip to go and see them over the Christmas break - they should have similar tap water to us (though they may use RO water instead - I will contact them to find out).
> 
> The Cherry shrimp on their website look a little 'anaemic', so I'll have to see if we can 'cherry pick' (pun intended!) some darker ones out if visiting in person. Failing that I may have to consider stepping up to the dark variants (Sakura or Bloody Mary) - though its an expensive risk at that price!


You welcome.Heard Proshrimp is good.If your tank is cycled and is about 15-20 gallons u can quite safely try the darker variants.Just dont overfeed


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## Steve Buce (2 Dec 2019)

The water in Leicester is very similar to Notts 200+ TDS , so you will be ok to keep neos
Amanos will be ok but will bully neos for food, so if mixing feed a smaller size food so they don’t do a runner with the shrimp pellet
I also keep tangerine tigers, but in their tank I dilute the tap water with filtered rainwater

Have a look at my tank... 
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/posts/573945

I also have some shrimp sales threads with lots of pics

If you ever pass thru Leicester, give us a shout, welcome to pop in and have a look at the tanks

Steve


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## Steve Buce (2 Dec 2019)

And as for fish, keeping small tetras, embers, neons etc and small rasboras in my experience have vey little impact on a healthy colony, they may take the odd small shrimplet

In my blue neo tank I currently have 3 types of nano rasbora, blue axelrodi, chilli and maculatus?
All take no notice of shrimps
My ottos take little notice of my shrimp, laying in the feeding dish with the shrimps
Keepi guppies and endlers with caution, I found the females are more likely to predate or pester shrimp, male endlers seem not to bother shrimp in my experience 

Steve


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## Wookii (2 Dec 2019)

MJQMJQ said:


> You welcome.Heard Proshrimp is good.If your tank is cycled and is about 15-20 gallons u can quite safely try the darker variants.Just dont overfeed



Yes, tank i


Steve Buce said:


> The water in Leicester is very similar to Notts 200+ TDS , so you will be ok to keep neos
> Amanos will be ok but will bully neos for food, so if mixing feed a smaller size food so they don’t do a runner with the shrimp pellet
> I also keep tangerine tigers, but in their tank I dilute the tap water with filtered rainwater
> 
> ...



Thanks for the offer Steve, much appreciated. Leicester is only a quick hop down the M1 for me. What shrimp do you have available for sale? (Feel free to PM me if it's more appropriate).




Steve Buce said:


> And as for fish, keeping small tetras, embers, neons etc and small rasboras in my experience have vey little impact on a healthy colony, they may take the odd small shrimplet
> 
> In my blue neo tank I currently have 3 types of nano rasbora, blue axelrodi, chilli and maculatus?
> All take no notice of shrimps
> ...



I must admit I hadn't considered Rasbora - even though I used to keep Harlequins back in the day!

What is the species in you tank photo here, they look really nice and might be a good suggestion to my son instead of Guppies? They look like they are pretty active ( rather than hanging in a shoal - if one can determine that from a photo) - one of the things that drew my son to the Guppies was their constant movement about the tank in the LFS, whereas the tetras commonly just 'hang' in mid-water in a shoal.


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## Steve Buce (2 Dec 2019)

They are endlers livebearer, like small guppies, very active, lots of colour variants , there is only males in the my shrimp tanks
Females in separate tanks

I can give you a starter group of black bar endlers
2 males and a group of females

Steve


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## Wookii (2 Dec 2019)

Steve Buce said:


> They are endlers livebearer, like small guppies, very active, lots of colour variants , there is only males in the my shrimp tanks
> Females in separate tanks
> 
> I can give you a starter group of black bar endlers
> ...



Ah right - do the males not bother the baby shrimp then? This thread has kind of put me off adding live bearers?

Many thanks for the offer of the fish, let me come back to you on that, as we probably won’t be ready to add those until the middle to end of Jan. Ideally though I’d just want males as we won’t really have the facilities to house fry.


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## alto (3 Dec 2019)

I’d give Pro Shrimp a shout - always nice to support your local shops - and your son would probably like the visit

(FWIW I don’t think their shrimp are expensive  they seem to offer a nice selection and may have some locally bred stock available as well)

Female guppies are constantly pregnant so that may contribute to their somewhat ravenous appreciation of shrimp 
- not to mention the size difference ... though if you search out breeding/show quality guppies (my experience is with Asian breeders) they can be rather a different fish (gorgeous colors in both male and female, nice temperament, not eating their offspring even in the shipping bags, less likely to have Columnaris)
I really like guppies for kid tanks - they are lovely bright constantly moving (& non-hiding) entertainers - if you start with a good quality trio (2 female : 1 male) offspring overruns should be easily moved on (though obviously more complicated than just picking up several pretty boys )

Rather than Amano type shrimp, I’d just add in a few Clithon corona snails (fun to watch and still no eggs in my tank  )


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## MJQMJQ (3 Dec 2019)

Y


alto said:


> I’d give Pro Shrimp a shout - always nice to support your local shops - and your son would probably like the visit
> 
> (FWIW I don’t think their shrimp are expensive  they seem to offer a nice selection and may have some locally bred stock available as well)
> 
> ...


Yep guppies are large.Either amanos or neos.U can also keep otos safely with shrimp.If u want snails ph should be at least 7 or u might have dissolving shells.


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## MJQMJQ (3 Dec 2019)

Wookii said:


> Yes, tank i
> 
> 
> Thanks for the offer Steve, much appreciated. Leicester is only a quick hop down the M1 for me. What shrimp do you have available for sale? (Feel free to PM me if it's more appropriate).
> ...


In that case your son probably wouldnt like shrimp they are not that active and just graze around with an occasional shrimp swimming around.Maybe just keep guppies?And choose healthy ones.No clamped fins hovering near water surface no sign of disease.And dont buy if the tank has unhealthy fish in it.


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## Wookii (3 Dec 2019)

alto said:


> I’d give Pro Shrimp a shout - always nice to support your local shops - and your son would probably like the visit
> 
> (FWIW I don’t think their shrimp are expensive  they seem to offer a nice selection and may have some locally bred stock available as well)
> 
> ...



Thanks for the pointers. Having read a bit more, Endlers might be a better way for us to go, being a smaller fish than guppies. We did see some tiny ones (presumably juveniles at around 10mm long) a few weeks back at the LFS (a beautiful black with a gold stripe), though I didn't realise what they were at the time. I'm not sure about adding females, 'pretty boys' as you put it lol might be the best way to go rather than dealing with tiny offspring.



MJQMJQ said:


> Y
> 
> Yep guppies are large.Either amanos or neos.U can also keep otos safely with shrimp.If u want snails ph should be at least 7 or u might have dissolving shells.



Thanks for the tip - I didn't appreciate that snails had such an intolerance to a lower Ph - does that not exclude them for almost anyone with a high tech tank? We were planning on adding a couple of Zebra Nerites, so may have to rethink that.



MJQMJQ said:


> In that case your son probably wouldnt like shrimp they are not that active and just graze around with an occasional shrimp swimming around.Maybe just keep guppies?And choose healthy ones.No clamped fins hovering near water surface no sign of disease.And dont buy if the tank has unhealthy fish in it.



Oh he loves the shrimp, as do I, they are truly fascinating to watch, so we'll definitely be having shrimp in one form or another. His attraction to guppies was just seeing them in the LFS. If you think through the eyes of a 7 year old that has never had a tank before, and you visit your LFS and see a tank full of guppies going crazy up and down the glass, next to a tank full of tetra hanging largely motionless in the water column, which one are you going to get excited about! I have explained to him that behaviour of the tetras will be different in his own tank, and he does love the look of Cardinals so they will likely be our mid-water fish of choice I think.

We may add a few Otos with some Cory Habrosus as I've read they shoal together in the wild, a different LFS near us has some lovely looking striped zebra Otos that I'd not seen before - I've only ever kept the Affinis type in the past. 

There are too many nice fish, that's the problem - at only 60 litres we have to watch our stocking levels! We can handle a high stock in terms of filtration (the Eheim 2028 is rated at about 21x at 1260l/h - though I appreciated real world flow will be a fair bit lower, we should still be well over 10x) and we have the facility to auto-water change 25% daily if we ever felt the need (though will start with 25% 2-3 times a week) - but I don't want the tank to look in any way crowded, so we'll add gradually in species and review as we go.


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## MJQMJQ (3 Dec 2019)

Wookii said:


> Thanks for the pointers. Having read a bit more, Endlers might be a better way for us to go, being a smaller fish than guppies. We did see some tiny ones (presumably juveniles at around 10mm long) a few weeks back at the LFS (a beautiful black with a gold stripe), though I didn't realise what they were at the time. I'm not sure about adding females, 'pretty boys' as you put it lol might be the best way to go rather than dealing with tiny offspring.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


21 times is quite overkill.I had sulawesi snail shells dissolving in my tank.If ph is lower than 6.5 its gonna be a real prob.If between 6.5 and 7 can try one nerite.Hmm the fish u like would only go well with amanos.


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## Wookii (3 Dec 2019)

MJQMJQ said:


> 21 times is quite overkill.I had sulawesi snail shells dissolving in my tank.If ph is lower than 6.5 its gonna be a real prob.If between 6.5 and 7 can try one nerite.Hmm the fish u like would only go well with amanos.



21x is overkill, but they never hit their rated output, and by the time we add an inline heater, and inline CO2 diffuser, it'll likely be down around the 10x mark.

As for the fish choice, why do you say they will only go with Amanos? I appreciate all fish will try and eat newly hatched and baby shrimp, but surely Cardinals, dwarf Cory's or Endlers pose no threat to adult Cherrys?


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## MJQMJQ (3 Dec 2019)

Wookii said:


> 21x is overkill, but they never hit their rated output, and by the time we add an inline heater, and inline CO2 diffuser, it'll likely be down around the 10x mark.
> 
> As for the fish choice, why do you say they will only go with Amanos? I appreciate all fish will try and eat newly hatched and baby shrimp, but surely Cardinals, dwarf Cory's or Endlers pose no threat to adult Cherrys?


Amanos are bigger.They wont eat adults but the adults may hide especially if there are less than ten cherries.A planted tank will let them hide and breed though but u may see them less than u would like to.


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## sparkyweasel (3 Dec 2019)

Wookii said:


> - at only 60 litres we have to watch our stocking levels!


Have you seen Green Neon Tetras? Fairly similar to Cardinals, but substantially smaller. 
Smaller even than regular Neons, plus also they are usually healthy, whereas most regular Neons available are very poor.


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## JMorgan (3 Dec 2019)

One quick tip I thought sensible came from a bloke who successfully combined shrimp with moderate sized fish, i.e. fish that would definitely eat shrimplets but probably not adult shrimp: He established the shrimp first using a pile of roughly walnut sized pebbles as a 'hatchery/shrimplet nursery' on one side of the tank. He had various anubias and java fern attached to some of the larger pebbles so it didn't look at all bad. This created such a solid and impregnable sanctuary for the shrimp to breed, the colony grew despite what must have been quite heavy predation after the fish were introduced.
Some years later when he dismantled the tank he discovered that the shrimp had established an extraordinarily complex 'warren' (for want of a better word) within the pebbles.
I'm not keeping any shrimp at the moment, but when I do, a large pile of pebbles is top of my list.


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## jaypeecee (3 Dec 2019)

Wookii said:


> 1. I'd like a bit of variety, so was thinking of having maybe 4 x small Amano, 6 x Cherry, and 2 x Crystal red. Does that seem an acceptable quantity for a heavily planted 60cm tank? Or should it be more/less?
> 
> 2. Fish will be added in due course (Platies, Guppies and Cory's and maybe 4 x Ottos - my sons choices), starting with the guppies which will be added at the same time as the shrimp - I've read all these species are compatible with shrimp - would everyone concur?



Hi @Wookii 

I recently read that the only safe fish to have with cherry shrimps is the Otocinclus. I think I know where I read that so let me check it out. I had Celestial Pearl Danios (CPDs) with my cherry shrimp and I have good reason to think that the CPDs ate the tiny shrimplets.

JPC


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## david boden (3 Dec 2019)

You're spot on there J----another advantage of a pile of smooth pebbles is that they get easily covered  in biofilm.
As we are told,   the females try to deposit the shrimplets wherever the biofilm is abundant for them , so the babies can stay there, safely hidden and feed.
I use small piles of jet black beach pebbles in my own tanks , although I've never tried attaching plants to them ---it's a worthy idea though .


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## Wookii (3 Dec 2019)

sparkyweasel said:


> Have you seen Green Neon Tetras? Fairly similar to Cardinals, but substantially smaller.
> Smaller even than regular Neons, plus also they are usually healthy, whereas most regular Neons available are very poor.



Thanks for the tip, they do look very nice, and might be a good smaller alternative to the Cardinals.


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## Wookii (3 Dec 2019)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Wookii
> 
> I recently read that the only safe fish to have with cherry shrimps is the Otocinclus. I think I know where I read that so let me check it out. I had Celestial Pearl Danios (CPDs) with my cherry shrimp and I have good reason to think that the CPDs ate the tiny shrimplets.
> 
> JPC



Thanks - I think it all really depends on where we draw the line at ‘safe’. I can wholly accept that should the shrimp breed, the new born shrimplets will be a meal for virtually anything that swims. 

From what I read, Cherry shrimp can be pretty profilic, so as as much as much as I would be pleasantly surprised to find them breeding, by the same token I would want them swarming out of control - so I guess some sort of self-balancing happy medium, whereby new of-spring replace aging adults is the ideal.

What I want to avoid is any fish that actively pursue, harass and predate on the adult shrimp, wherever possible.


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## Wookii (3 Dec 2019)

JMorgan said:


> One quick tip I thought sensible came from a bloke who successfully combined shrimp with moderate sized fish, i.e. fish that would definitely eat shrimplets but probably not adult shrimp: He established the shrimp first using a pile of roughly walnut sized pebbles as a 'hatchery/shrimplet nursery' on one side of the tank. He had various anubias and java fern attached to some of the larger pebbles so it didn't look at all bad. This created such a solid and impregnable sanctuary for the shrimp to breed, the colony grew despite what must have been quite heavy predation after the fish were introduced.
> Some years later when he dismantled the tank he discovered that the shrimp had established an extraordinarily complex 'warren' (for want of a better word) within the pebbles.
> I'm not keeping any shrimp at the moment, but when I do, a large pile of pebbles is top of my list.



 Thanks for the tip, that’s really interesting to read. Do the shrimps actually dig tunnels then?

Whilst we probably won’t have space for a pile of pebbles, there will be a centralised area where the bog wood and rocks intersect that will provide quite a tight warren of cracks and crevices. In addition I’ll be planting Lomariopsis lineata around this area which should form even more habitat for baby shrimp to hide in.


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## Onoma1 (3 Dec 2019)

sparkyweasel said:


> Have you seen Green Neon Tetras? Fairly similar to Cardinals, but substantially smaller.
> Smaller even than regular Neons, plus also they are usually healthy, whereas most regular Neons available are very poor.



But, if these fish had a moto it would be 'run away'. They only venture out of the undergrowth when there isn't the slightest chance you will be in the room/ building.


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## JMorgan (4 Dec 2019)

Wookii said:


> Thanks for the tip, that’s really interesting to read. Do the shrimps actually dig tunnels then?


I'm sorry I don't remember the exact description, I think it was Lucas Bretz talking on one of his you tube channel live streams a few years ago. But yes I think the pebbles were resting on substrate, so when he tore down the tank, he found they'd dug out the substrate to some extent . . .  there was no video of it that I remember, but I was struck by his enthusiasm for what he'd found, as well as the common sense of giving them a 'fortress' where they could be completely safe. It's like they say about shy and timid fish - the more places they have to hide the more you'll see them. With shrimplets I'm guessing - especially with what David says about biofilm on the pebbles - that considerably more will grow to be big enough not to get eaten.

I also saw or read that thing about otocinclus being the only truly shrimp safe fish, but I think that's too broad a generalisation, especially given the popularity of 'nano' sized fish these days. I even have a friend who's combined a (presumably pretty laid back) betta splendens with cherry shrimp and he often gives away his 'culls' (poor colour), the little colony produces so many, but when I tried to duplicate his set up with my daughter's betta a few years ago, I just ended up with a fat, happy betta, no shrimp and an unhappy child. Thankfully she was at an age when she blamed the betta rather than me. Unfair of course but as a parent one learns not to argue.


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## alto (4 Dec 2019)

I highly recommend you and your son watch this video from Filipe Oliveira’s home tank

Note how bold the shrimp are - that behaviour is in part due to being part of a substantial colony (I’d not be surprised if there are 100-200 (or more!) shrimp of varying ages in that tank) and good health (why I suggest being careful of where shrimp are purchased, ask questions )




It would be nice if ukaps requested permission to add this link as a Sticky to the Inverts Forum (when looking at shrimp, capture some photos or video and zoom  )

Freshwater Shrimp Diseases by Aquarium Creation


Re Guppies and Endlers, there are many hybrids commercially available now - some are more “guppy”, some are more “endler” 
Some guppy’s are bred for larger size, these males can also be quite large, others are much smaller - note that mature female endlers and female guppies are both quite large

Aquarium Glaser with a few variants (Frank Schäfer deserves special recognition for his outstanding photography)
https://www.aquariumglaser.de/en/tag/endler-en/

https://www.aquariumglaser.de/en/?s=Guppy


While commercially bred cardinal tetras can be quite large, Seriously Fish lists 20-35mm for wild caught cardinals (and is accurate IME), 20-30mm for (wild) neon tetras, 15-25mm for (wild) green neon tetras ... buying small juveniles that you grow out yourself will usually result in more “normal” sized fish (tank bred or wild caught), fish that are listed as L or XL on farm lists have often been “encouraged” to that size 
(an experienced shop should know which sort of fish they are importing)
When feeding fish, they should have only slightly rounded bellies after feeding, not distended after an _all-you-can-eat-buffet _


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## MJQMJQ (4 Dec 2019)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Wookii
> 
> I recently read that the only safe fish to have with cherry shrimps is the Otocinclus. I think I know where I read that so let me check it out. I had Celestial Pearl Danios (CPDs) with my cherry shrimp and I have good reason to think that the CPDs ate the tiny shrimplets.
> 
> JPC


They are large and so will eat them.Anything that fits inside its mouth is food.Also depends on fish personality too!


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## jaypeecee (4 Dec 2019)

MJQMJQ said:


> They are large and so will eat them.Anything that fits inside its mouth is food.Also depends on fish personality too!



Hi @MJQMJQ 

When you say "They are large...", I assume that you are referring to the CPDs and not Otocinclus? I ask because Otocinclus are often larger/longer than CPDs. But, being Danios, CPDs have very small mouths.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (4 Dec 2019)

Wookii said:


> What I want to avoid is any fish that actively pursue, harass and predate on the adult shrimp, wherever possible.



Hi @Wookii ...in that case, you should be OK with CPDs.

JPC


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## Iain Sutherland (4 Dec 2019)

Shrimp colonies can be kept with a majority of aquarium fish however there are some clear areas worth noting...

- if a fish is hungry then it will eat whatever is available so keeping fish well fed helps reduce predation.
- once a colony is established then it will generally out breed predation assuming the above point is adhered to.
- adult shrimp are less likely to be predated than babies and juveniles even with some larger fish.
- due to the above point some small fish are particularly successful at decimating even well established colonies.. I'm sure there are more but CPD's , badis badis, checker barbs, tiger barbs, betta (personality dependant) and likely a good handful more.
- heavily planted tanks with a good amount of hardscape will always provide enough places for the shrimp to multiply.  It's not uncommon to only see adult shrimp out and about with bigger fish but when you break a tank down hundreds of babies appear. 

Personally I've had adult Congo tetra, lots of  barbs including cherry and checkers, denisonii barbs, butterfly cichlids, adult neons and numerous other tetra all maintained with growing shrimp populations.  A lot of these are bigger fish who have little interested in adult neocaradina such as cherry shrimp.
If you look though many journals on this forum and videos on YouTube you will see a plethora of tanks maintained with healthy colonies of shrimp and fish.

It will always be a bit of a gamble especially when starting with a new tank, new shrimp colony and new fish... it's not unheard of that a group of fish that were no issue last someone kept them a few years ago adding them to a tank and they are total gits. 


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## Conort2 (4 Dec 2019)

I think the best thing to do aswell would be to let the shrimp settle and start breeding that first, that way if you do lose the odd one to predation you can be sure there are plenty more. I keep fish as large as cherry barbs and danios with my shrimp and they don’t bother them most of the time however if a small shrimplet is stupid enough to swim up into midwater it will get eaten. Although they quickly grow to a size though where the fish are no longer a threat and are lightning fast when they need to be. I started with 6 tangerine tigers and probably have a few hundred now. As mentioned make sure you have sufficient cover like a lump of moss or stones and it will give the shrimp somewhere to multiply. Mine take cover in Monte Carlo and other fine leaves plants I have until they’re big enough to take on the fish.

cheers

Conor


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## Wookii (4 Dec 2019)

Thanks very much for the input guys, its much appreciated. I think it's just going to be a case of 'suck it and see'. I'm confident there will be a quite a few hiding places for the shrimp, and the shrimp will be added at least a week before we consider adding any fish (other than some Oto's), so they should have some time to get comfortable and find places to hide before other fish start to be slowly introduced. The fish we introduce will likely be small juveniles to start with anyway - even the nice Endlers we saw at the LFS were at most 10mm long. Likewise if we do go for a shoal of cardinals or other tetra, we'll likely select smaller fish from those available.


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## jaypeecee (4 Dec 2019)

Hi @Wookii 

Have you purchased and kept Otocinclus before?

JPC


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## Wookii (4 Dec 2019)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Wookii
> 
> Have you purchased and kept Otocinclus before?
> 
> JPC



I have, yes. Why do you ask?

I know the recommendation is to have 6+ for shoaling - but I will be adding Salt and Pepper Cody’s later on, which Oto’s apparently shoal with one the wild.


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## jaypeecee (4 Dec 2019)

Wookii said:


> I have, yes. Why do you ask?



Hi @Wookii 

I read through your thread and just wasn't sure if you'd kept Otocinclus before. Had that been the case, I was simply going to give you a few cautionary tips about their sensitivity, their need for algae/established biofilm, etc. But you'll be familiar with all that. That was all.

JPC


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## Wookii (4 Dec 2019)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Wookii
> 
> I read through your thread and just wasn't sure if you'd kept Otocinclus before. Had that been the case, I was simply going to give you a few cautionary tips about their sensitivity, their need for algae/established biofilm, etc. But you'll be familiar with all that. That was all.
> 
> JPC



Thanks, yep the tank is running now - cycling prior to adding plants at Christmas (the plants will be a present for my son which is why I couldn’t add them from day 1) so the tank will have been running for about 5 weeks before we consider adding any Otos. I may even wait until we add the Corys (final addition once the carpet plants have started rooting - maybe toward the end of Jan) before adding them, I’m not sure. It depends how badly we suffer from any algae once the lights are added (also a Christmas present for my son!), if we do have an attack I may have to press the Otos into service earlier - they used to do a tremendous job when I’ve had them in the past, of helping remove algae.


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## Wookii (4 Dec 2019)

alto said:


> I highly recommend you and your son watch this video from Filipe Oliveira’s home tank
> 
> Note how bold the shrimp are - that behaviour is in part due to being part of a substantial colony (I’d not be surprised if there are 100-200 (or more!) shrimp of varying ages in that tank) and good health (why I suggest being careful of where shrimp are purchased, ask questions )
> 
> ...




I’ve just noticed in that Filipe Oliveira video, that he has a dwarf puffer in that tank. I would have thought that would be a dead cert for a shrimp muncher?


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## Iain Sutherland (4 Dec 2019)

Wookii said:


> I’ve just noticed in that Filipe Oliveira video, that he has a dwarf puffer in that tank. I would have thought that would be a dead cert for a shrimp muncher?


Puffers aren't quick enough, they are probably one of the safer choices...

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## alto (5 Dec 2019)

Like Bettas, some dwarf puffers appear to be active (dedicated ) shrimp hunters, some don’t 

If you can convince your son to give the shrimp a couple months, they’ll often be breeding by then


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## Wookii (5 Dec 2019)

Iain Sutherland said:


> Puffers aren't quick enough, they are probably one of the safer choices...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk





alto said:


> Like Bettas, some dwarf puffers appear to be active (dedicated ) shrimp hunters, some don’t



Thanks - I never realised that. I always assumed, given their propensity to munch on all the snails they can find, that shrimp would be firmly on the menu also - but I guess their speed, or lack there of, makes sense/



alto said:


> If you can convince your son to give the shrimp a couple months, they’ll often be breeding by then



I think I'll struggle with that to be fair.


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## alto (5 Dec 2019)

@Lauris also seems to successfully keep puffers (& CPD) with (breeding) shrimp populations 

Escape

(again I suspect the puffers may be later additions - I believe Filipe Oliveira mentions somewhere that he added the puffers to his 60cm tank hoping they’d clean up some nuisance snails (though you still need to remove the shells if they disturb the aesthetic ))


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## MJQMJQ (5 Dec 2019)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @MJQMJQ
> 
> When you say "They are large...", I assume that you are referring to the CPDs and not Otocinclus? I ask because Otocinclus are often larger/longer than CPDs. But, being Danios, CPDs have very small mouths.
> 
> JPC


Yep the CPDs. I wouldnt trust dwarf puffers.


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (8 Dec 2019)

I can definately advise that dwarf puffers are ok with shrimp. Too slow as other have indicated.  I am a bit concerned about mixing cardinals with livebearer though - classic soft water and hardwater fish. What are your water parameters?


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## MJQMJQ (9 Dec 2019)

Matt @ ScapeEasy said:


> I can definately advise that dwarf puffers are ok with shrimp. Too slow as other have indicated.  I am a bit concerned about mixing cardinals with livebearer though - classic soft water and hardwater fish. What are your water parameters?


Wouldnt the puffers eat the baby shrimps?They would catch them unawares and eat them.Agreed unless ph is about 6.5-7.5 then could try.


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (9 Dec 2019)

All I know is my shrimp did well in my dwarf puffer tank... each fish is it's own individual character though I suppose...


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## MJQMJQ (9 Dec 2019)

Matt @ ScapeEasy said:


> All I know is my shrimp did well in my dwarf puffer tank... each fish is it's own individual character though I suppose...



Did they breed?Only one puffer?


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## Protopigeon (9 Dec 2019)

@Wookii If you're in Notts it's worth popping down to Maidenhead aquatics on the ring road (it's at nottcutts garden center) - they now have 2 dedicated shrimp tanks with neos and caradinas for sale. Friendly staff too.


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## Wookii (9 Dec 2019)

Protopigeon said:


> @Wookii If you're in Notts it's worth popping down to Maidenhead aquatics on the ring road (it's at nottcutts garden center) - they now have 2 dedicated shrimp tanks with neos and caradinas for sale. Friendly staff too.



Thanks for tagging me - I hadn’t realised there had been more replies to this thread! Notifications seem to be a bit hit and miss on this forum.

Thanks for the heads up on the Maidenhead Aquatics - I didn’t even realise there was one there, I’ve only ever gone to the one at Trowell Garden Centre which is kind of average in terms of stocks (I think they have a handful of Amanos at most).

I’ll pop over to the Nott Cutts one at the weekend, and check it out.


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## Iain Sutherland (9 Dec 2019)

Protopigeon said:


> @Wookii If you're in Notts it's worth popping down to Maidenhead aquatics on the ring road (it's at nottcutts garden center) - they now have 2 dedicated shrimp tanks with neos and caradinas for sale. Friendly staff too.


I dont know why all LFS dont have breeding ranks, it's free money! 
Hope your MA is cheaper than down this way, they normally charge about £4 for cherries and £8.50 for caradina down here which is mental pricing and low grade  
Shrimp marketplace is the way to go..

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## Wookii (9 Dec 2019)

Iain Sutherland said:


> I dont know why all LFS dont have breeding ranks, it's free money!
> Hope your MA is cheaper than down this way, they normally charge about £4 for cherries and £8.50 for caradina down here which is mental pricing
> Shrimp marketplace is the way to go..Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk



Yep - they certainly know how to charge!

You’ll have to excuse my ignorance, but what is ‘Shrimp Marketplace’? (Google didn’t return anything that wasn’t for eating!)


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## Protopigeon (9 Dec 2019)

Iain Sutherland said:


> I dont know why all LFS dont have breeding ranks, it's free money!
> Hope your MA is cheaper than down this way, they normally charge about £4 for cherries and £8.50 for caradina down here which is mental pricing and low grade
> Shrimp marketplace is the way to go..
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk



Nah it's exensive - the cherries are pricey (like 4 quid!) , does seem odd when they breed so easily, as you say


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## Iain Sutherland (9 Dec 2019)

Wookii said:


> Yep - they certainly know how to charge!
> 
> You’ll have to excuse my ignorance, but what is ‘Shrimp Marketplace’? (Google didn’t return anything that wasn’t for eating!)


Sorry, you can download the BAND app and search shrimp marketplace.  Largely uk breeders selling and auctions.  

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## Wookii (9 Dec 2019)

Iain Sutherland said:


> Sorry, you can download the BAND app and search shrimp marketplace.  Largely uk breeders selling and auctions.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk



Wow, OK, just when you heard of most online resources - you heat of something for the first time! - that app is a new one on me.

I’ll check it out, thanks Iain. Are most of the sellers on there trust worthy?


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## Iain Sutherland (10 Dec 2019)

Wookii said:


> Wow, OK, just when you heard of most online resources - you heat of something for the first time! - that app is a new one on me.
> 
> I’ll check it out, thanks Iain. Are most of the sellers on there trust worthy?


Certainly seem to be trust worthy, there are few main sellers that you will see.
Most people on there are from the shrimpers uk facebook group.

BAND is basically a forum and selling page that doesnt have livestock restrictions like fb and ebay.

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## Gabriela Valdivia (16 Feb 2020)

Hello,
I have a 9 gallon tank with 4 Amano, 3 cherry shrimps, One huge Betta, 5 Neons and  one Tiger Hillstream loach. They live very happy , nobody is eating anyone or attacking. They have been together for 3 month now.
I guess it depends....maybe I was lucky all of them get along?


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## Wookii (18 Feb 2020)

Just to round of this thread with the actual outcome.

We abandoned the idea of Endlers in the end. The tank now houses Embers, Pygmy Cory's and recently some Chill Rasboras.

In addition I'm pleased to say that the shrimp have now bred, and there are tiny shrimplets everywhere in the moss and in amongst the Marsilea crenata - the kids love trying to count them, and we cna generally spot 12-15 out in the open at any one time, so I'm guessing we must have 3-4 times that hidden throughout the tank. I've been quite surprised by how fast they grow - they have at least doubled in size each week. They are now about 1/3 -1/2 the length of the tiny Rasboras already, and have started to become more bold, venturing out onto rocks etc.

I've not see any of the fish actively hunt them. One particularly chunky Pygmy Cory occasionally noses around in the moss, and I wonder if she might be looking for them, but the shrimplets spring out of the way before she can even get close. She may just be hoovering up fish food particles trapped in the moss.

All in all, a good result anyway - the aquarium is being thoroughly enjoyed by the whole family, and having babies in the tank has added a whole new dimension.


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