# Mosses that do or don't attach to Hardscapes!



## GHNelson

A general consensus of Mosses that do or don't adhere to submersed hardscapes!

Anchor moss....................No
Afro Moss........................Yes
Brazil moss....................
Bucephalandra moss......Yes
Cameroon moss..............Yes
China moss.....................
Creeping moss................Yes
Christmas moss..............Yes
Erect moss......................
Fissidens fontanus.........Yes
Fissidens miroshaki.......Yes
Flame moss....................Yes
Hooker Moss..................Yes
Java moss......................Yes
Krabi moss.....................Yes
Mini Christmas...............Yes 
Peacock moss...............Yes
Pearl moss......................
Queen Moss...................Yes
Singapore moss..............
Spiky moss......................No
Stringy moss....................
Taiwan moss..................Yes
Thailand moss.................
Triangle moss..................
Weeping moss................No
Willow moss..................Yes


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## xim

Spiky moss......................No


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## GHNelson

Cheers Xim


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## mr. luke

Weeping moss - no
Flame moss -yes

Mini pellia (not a moss but popular) - yes


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## GHNelson

Cheers Bud!


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## rebel

Peacock - no (to gold wine)


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## mafoo

Java moss will start off attached, but when it gets old and cuts off the light to where its attached to, it will die off and detach.

Same goes with the mosses in the same family like christmas moss, flame moss etc

I don't think I've ever seen willow moss attach in water, and its stems are too brittle to tie down. so I'm going to say 

Willow moss..................... No


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## rebel

mafoo said:


> Java moss will start off attached, but when it gets old and cuts off the light to where its attached to, it will die off and detach.


This applies to any moss to be honest. If it is starved of light/CO2 etc in the deep recesses, then it will die.


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## zozo

rebel said:


> Peacock - no (to gold wine)


I does for me to definitely to wood and to rock i'm not realy sure yet, glued some on months ago and it's growing, would need to take out the rock to inspect it up close if new growth attached but looks  like it.

I can take some pics of the wood part when lights are on later on the day. But for me it's a yes.. 

Must add, got a lot of wood and at some parts it refuses to attach.. I'm yet not sure why, if it's placement or something in the wood causing this.


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## zozo

Peacock, i didn't put it there it comes from bellow creeping over the wood by itself.. Couldn't get a better pick it's a very shaded spot.


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## rebel

zozo said:


> I does for me to definitely to wood and to rock i'm not realy sure yet, glued some on months ago and it's growing, would need to take out the rock to inspect it up close if new growth attached but looks  like it.
> 
> I can take some pics of the wood part when lights are on later on the day. But for me it's a yes..
> 
> Must add, got a lot of wood and at some parts it refuses to attach.. I'm yet not sure why, if it's placement or something in the wood causing this.


interesting.

One of the issues is that moss identification is difficult and it's sold as this and that. so maybe the peacock I had was not peacock!!? 

What's your opinion on Christmas moss??


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## zozo

rebel said:


> What's your opinion on Christmas moss??


Last year i ordered Christmas moss from aquamoos.de, at least i thought so.. It's still in the other tank attached to wood.
Kinda the same discussion came up and was said i probably didn't get christmas moss.. Remembering this now, maybe didn't get real peacock this time as well.
It looks like it and have no other comparison what else it should be.

I personaly think in the end all mosses attach if it's placed on a material it's abel to attach to in proper conditions..Identification is indeed very dificult sometimes with many mosses but i'm not convinced this can be used as a pointer to say it does or does not attach to hardware. This aint the compllete picture and not specific enough.

Take stringy moss for example, which is a submersed form of a terrestrial moss whichs isn't stringy at all and grows epiphytic on our trees etc. You might find it in your own garden. I have it in the tank, submersed it's very brittle and twines it's long strings into other plants it appears not to attach. I took some of a piece of wood in the forest and placed it in water last year and saw it change form. Have it growing close to the surface into the emersed part as well, one day i found it growing emersed attached to a dried out echinodorus leaf edge. It might not want to attach to a hard inert rock ot a piece of relatively fresh wood. But my best guess is, if the wood is rot enough it probably will eat itself into it. If you put it on a piece of brandnew spiderwood which is a fresh piece of rhododendron root it might take a few years for that wood to becomme suitable for certain mosses to attach to.

I'm still exerimenting in wabi kusa with several (aquatic mosses) my peacock if it is definitely grows epiphytic on wood emersed, on rock can't say still too early, also placed flame moss on a rock emersed and fissidens on wood. It all still is alive, the day i take that WK apart i will find out how and if it the flame attached and how it changed it's form.


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## dw1305

Hi all,





rebel said:


> One of the issues is that moss identification is difficult and it's sold as this and that. so maybe the peacock I had was not peacock


That would be my problem, often we don't actually know what species the mosses are, and even if they have a scientific name attached to the colloquial/trade name it might not be the correct one.

The moss sold as "Stringy moss" ("_Leptodictyum riparium_") almost certainly isn't _L. riparium_, but maybe _<"Drepanocladus aduncus">, _but the moss sold as _Drepanocladus spec. aduncus _is something else again, and these are European native mosses that are scientifically  well described.

Mosses that are sold as _Taxiphyllum_ and _Vesicularia_ species are even more difficult to pin down. Many mosses are only identifiable with a microscope (to look at leaf cell structure) and when they have capsules (which again may need microscopic identification), and the majority of them don't produce capsules when grown submersed. Some species of moss that are in the trade may be scientifically undescribed etc.

For what its worth the moss I had/have as <"Christmas moss"> was a _Vesicularia _sp. (based upon the leaf shape and gritty texture) and attached to everything, including the glass.  There are some microscope images of what I thought (in 2009) were Christmas and Peacock moss in this thread, <"Mosses">.

cheers Darrel


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## zozo

Then you might as well come to think what the heck is peacock anyway?? And there still is a lot of disagrement about what is what. So it's a group of taxiphyllum sp. looking simular... I took several terrestrial growing mosses from the woods which where rather far away from any water. I did put them sumbersed and actualy all of them developed new growth and all of them had a stringy appearance in submersed form. Even the Mnium sp. i did put submersed for longer periode started to new growth finaly in very long strings. All of them where attached, realy do not know the true sp. but if not attached to wood it was attached to the soil.

Anyway i'm far from a scientist i'm just a hobbyist very much intrested in biology, fysiology, anatomy etc. And that little bit of theoretical assumptioms of growth form of mosses taken in the scientific papers i red. I think to came to the understanding that mosses attach on a rhiziod level.. It doesn't eat itself into a structure it's little rhiziod cells grow into the little microscopic cracks provided. At the point they are fat enough grown into a crack and attach by clinging like a screw plug in a hole in the wall. It's the symbiotic microbiological process which does the eating part and provides the moss with food to grow these fat rhiziods.  Hence Darrels statement it even attaches to glass, it hooks into the microscopic scratches in the glass living off a biofilm of bacteria waste.

All mosses have those rhiziods and in my idea it's not the moss it's the hardware preventing it to attach.. So the question should be put as "On which hardware does certain moss not attach.. In my theory that would be much more correct then blame the moss.  This next to many other factors which could play a significant role preventing the moss to attach..


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## rebel

Since this post started, I noticed moss had attached to my low-tech tank glass!! It is either flame or java. Not sure as I can't tell them apart in low tech.


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## zozo

Not realy firmly attached but definitely creeping up on it, maybe a matter of time, i guess it only would do this if there are nutrients for them to find on the glass. One of them the lower is Taxiphyllum sp. the other long one is that stringy i told about above. It's there already for quite some time. It was more a while back but it gets over grown by bog pimpernell..  Had to help it a side to take the pic.. This is emersed half inch from back panel top edge.. Notice even the darn hair algae growing emersed on it..


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## zozo

Did some cleaning today and found another one, regularly find some like this with all mosses i grow.. 

This is stringy, which one, beats me.. As said in first glance it appears not to attach..




All 3 pointed objects are attached.. Notice  you might have the idea moss and plant have a beginning and an end, at one end roots and at the other end the stems and leaves. Or like it would show roots like some stemplants do at internodes.. Moss does it different, where ever it touched something it can get food off it's rhizods grow into.. I'm still waiting to  get my camera attached to the microscope, looks awsome. It looks like it growes rhizoids from its leaves. But for now this is the closest i can get. Working on it..


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





zozo said:


> This is stringy, which one, beats me.


The close up of that one looks like <"_Drepanocladus aduncus"> (_below_)._

Can you see whether it has a central vein, that doesn't reach the leaf tip?
_

 
_
cheers Darrel


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## burr740

Hmmm, my experience with Willow moss (Fontinalis antipyretica) is different from the above.  It's one of the most aggressively attaching moss Ive ever seen. It'll stick to dirty glass.


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## zozo

dw1305 said:


> Can you see whether it has a central vein, that doesn't reach the leaf tip?


I'll take a look with the microscope first thing in the morning..  Luckily i still have that little piece in a glass on the window sil.. I kinda lost track of all the mosses i got in the tank.. They are all over the place now, i got 2 stringies in there, one came with an other moss bought from aquamoss as sneak in. I remeber you gave the same possible ID on it a year ago.. But i never checked.  This time i will.. And the other stringy one is an aquatic grow form of a terrestrial moss i threw in. It must be one of those 2.



burr740 said:


> Hmmm, my experience with Willow moss (Fontinalis antipyretica) is different from the above.  It's one of the most aggressively attaching moss Ive ever seen. It'll stick to dirty glass.


Also got that one, not to the glass but definitely attached to hardware and it grows like weed, it's the fastest growing moss in my tanks.. Also found pieces of flame moss with little clumps of substrate attached to it. But they are very britle and easily break off.. Almost all mosses do, the only moss i have to pull off with relatively some force sometimes is the aledged aquamoos.de christmass moss..


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## zozo

dw1305 said:


> The close up of that one looks like <"_Drepanocladus aduncus"> (_below_)._
> Can you see whether it has a central vein, that doesn't reach the leaf tip?



I think you are correct Darrel.. It's hard to see, the moss is tiny and not all leaves developed a central vein but som do and do not reach the tip..
This is taken with such a cellphone clip on microscope, which are realy awfull things to use.


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## Tim Harrison

Just looked at the first post of this thread again...the list - a general consensus of Mosses that do or don't adhere to hardscapes!

IME both willow moss and Christmas moss definitely adhere to hardscape. They are down as not adhering to hardscape.


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## GHNelson

Hi
Can change that Tim


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## Aqua360

Christmas moss was the best for me, absolutely anchored itself to wood


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## Sweded

I have spiky moss attaching to wood no problem. You just can let it grow too thick and let the lower layers that are in touch with the wood get light deprived which in turn make the de-attach over time. 
This is true for many moss though.


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## PBM3000

How long should mosses take to attach to hardscape, on average?


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## Zeus.

PBM3000 said:


> How long should mosses take to attach to hardscape, on average?



Instantly with a dry rock and a little smear of Gorilla Glue then press the moss on the glue then little rinse of water good to go in tank


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## PBM3000

Thanks but how long to attach on its own accord?  Specifically Flame Moss.  I've chopped mine up in a dry start scenario - was wondering how soon I could flood?


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## Tim Harrison

Usually around 2-4 weeks.


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## sciencefiction

I think in regards to moss, it's got a lot to do with the conditions. I have taiwan moss, or at least that's the name it had when I bought it. In my larger tank it detached itself from the driftwood eventually and started smothering the plants when growing around the bottom. In my small tank it attaches itself to the spraybar and grows into this below. Moss loves flow and light....This thread reminded me it's time to rip it off again as it hinders the flow...


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## rebel

Definitely weeks .Potentially a little faster with co2 but not by much. 



Tim Harrison said:


> Usually around 2-4 weeks.


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## zozo

PBM3000 said:


> Thanks but how long to attach on its own accord? Specifically Flame Moss. I've chopped mine up in a dry start scenario - was wondering how soon I could flood?



It depends on several factors and the type of moss i guess.. Most mosses don't like high pH and don't like lime rich invironments. That's why it's oftenly adviced to throw calcium on gras lawns to prevent moss growth.  So regarding harscape and invironment parameters, if it is rich in lime moss might have a hard time to grow and thus attach.

So in a dry start scenario and you have hard calcium rich water from the tap.. Than spray with demineralized water. Using a root stimulator aiding Rhiziod development might speed the process up. Most root stimulators i know of are pretty alkaline, thus checking this and bring the pH of the spray water back down preferably a bit bellow pH 7 might benefit also.

On a side note: 
Also for most plants growing emersed (terrestrialy) except the plants that like alkaline soils it could be beneficial to lower the pH of the soil by watering with a lower pH.
http://www.plant-magic.co.uk/post/2...e-to-ph-and-ec-and-how-they-affect-plants/54/

In an submersed invironment this is way to tricky to constantly lower pH and keep it at a stable value.. There for it is oftenly said plants don't care for pH. In a way they do and they don't.. It's all about optimalization.. In a submersed invironment to cons don't weigh up to the pro's. So it's better to do with what you get from the tap. It'll equal out in the end and plants grow anyway.  Growing plants emersed this is much easier controlable and easier to apply.

Anyway for most mosses it might definitively be a very benefitial dry startup..


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## a1Matt

Some more...

Cameroon moss..............no
Creeping moss................yes
Subwassertang (Lomariopsis lineata) .............yes
Mini pellia (Riccardia chamedryfolia/graeffei).........yes

Pearl moss - there a few different species using this common name. I'm trying plagiomnium cf affine at the moment, hopefully I will be able to update the list in a couple of months.


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## zozo

a1Matt said:


> Subwassertang (Lomariopsis lineata)



Not a moss..  It's a ferns prothallium, from the <Lomariopsis lineata>  in the trade erroneously sold as a Pellia.. But it isn't it only ressambles.



a1Matt said:


> plagiomnium cf affine


The CF stands for probably but we don't realy know.  But the true P. affine is pretty common in our regions.
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/native-british-mosses-for-aquascaping.37726/#post-407575
it does attach, but as for most of these kinds of mosses if provided with the proper conditions.. Submersed likely isn't it's ideal invironment to do so. But at silty loam river banks it grows happily, if it wouldn't attach it couldn't grow there without beeing flushed away all the time.. 

This is a moss that dwels in the middle of acidic and alkaline invironment, found in both conditions slightly under and above on rock and wood.. So maybe best is a nutral invironment for a dry start to make it attach before flooding.

That's the million dollar question.. Know your moss and where it likes to grow.. All attach finaly if given what it wants.. If you can't make it attach you are not giving it..


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





zozo said:


> The CF stands for probably but we don't realy know.


It definitely isn't the same plant as the European _P. affine, but _after that it is "_pick a name_".

cheers Darrel


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## PBM3000

Why does Weeping moss not attach?  Surely it does in the wild?


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## rebel

PBM3000 said:


> Why does Weeping moss not attach?  Surely it does in the wild?


I have 'weeping moss' but it hasn't attached so far, despite fast thick growth, high light, CO2 etc etc.


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## zozo

PBM3000 said:


> Why does Weeping moss not attach? Surely it does in the wild?



Doing a picture search there are quite some examples to find of scapes littered with weeping moss (Vesicularia ferriei) all over the place. At least that's what the scaper states he used.




The thing is, is it realy what it is? Meaning correctly identifying mosses is rather a very specialised subject. True bryologist seems to be a very rare species., for the tropical mosses even much rarer. Than as hobbyist you can not argue with the label and go with what you got..

for example a few years ago i ordered a cup of Christmass moss (Vesicularia montagnei) planted it, grew it. And used its pictures in a relevant thread about it. Than other members came along replying that what i showed didn't look like as what they thought was Christmas moss.. That's rather a strange situation, it seems all over the place there are quite some mixed moss spp. flying over the counter that are different but labeled the same.

Anyway Vesicularia spp. seems to be exclusively tropical moss making it even trickyer to identify by bryologists not from this region. There is very little data to find about it on line.. In our regional databases from local bryologists the Vesicularia spp. doesn't show up, it's not found outside the tropics.



> ———, and L. K. Leong. 2005. The truth behind the confusion—the identity of Java moss and other tropical aquarium mosses. Aquatic Gardener 18/(3):4–9. [Notes on how to separate Java moss (_Taxiphyllum barbieri_), Christmas moss (_Vesicularia montagnei_), Erect moss (_Vesicularia reticulata_), Singapore moss (_Vesicularia dubyana_), Taiwan moss (_Taxiphyllum alternans_) and Weeping moss (_Vesicularia ferriei_).].


http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1639/0007-2745(2007)110[838:RLOB]2.0.CO;2

The quote refers to - Aquatic Gardener Journal edition - volume 18, No3: Page 4-9  But you need to be a member to access it..
https://www.aquatic-gardeners.org/TAG/#/issue/v18n3

That's the No1 question, do you realy have what it says it is?..


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## nel.pogorzelska

I don't have normal weeping moss, but mini weeping is attaching rather nicely. I can add Fissidens miroshaki to the list, it attaches to everything and it's really hard to scrape it. I have it on lava, river stone, wood, if some of it lands on some soil... Now you have mini balls of miroshaki.


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## PBM3000

Thanks, I just don't see how it can *not* attach... eventually at least.


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## KeeperOfASilentWorld

How about Isopterygium 'Mini Taiwan Moss'?  

Any experiences on it's attachment?


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## milesm

i have what appears to be anchor moss. despite the name, it does NOT attach itself. apparently it gets its name because the side shoots grow at a 90 degree angle to the main frond, looking like an anchor.  early growth looked like weeping moss 




currently (6 months later):


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## Wookii

Very useful thread as I'll be selecting one or two moss types soon. Of those that attach to wood without too much of an issue, are there any particular types that lend themselves well to attaching to vertical sections of wood?


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## zozo

Wookii said:


> are there any particular types that lend themselves well to attaching to vertical sections of wood?



Fissidens.  But as all mosses, you need to start with planting enough, or as it grows to force it back to the hardscape to make it attach. Because when growing submerged under a different gravitational influence it feeds from the water column in a fashion of the route of least resistance.

Like this example, bellow shows




But you can force any moss to grow to hardscape.. I believe all moss do have the property to attach if given the correct environmental circumstances. What these are is the million-dollar question. My best guess is keeping by any means pushing it forcefully to the hardscape you want it to attach to and wait. 

Here it grows vertically to mesh.


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## Wookii

zozo said:


> Fissidens.  But as all mosses, you need to start with planting enough, or as it grows to force it back to the hardscape to make it attach. Because when growing submerged under a different gravitational influence it feeds from the water column in a fashion of the route of least resistance.
> 
> Like this example, bellow shows
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But you can force any moss to grow to hardscape.. I believe all moss do have the property to attach if given the correct environmental circumstances. What these are is the million-dollar question. My best guess is keeping by any means pushing it forcefully to the hardscape you want it to attach to and wait.
> 
> Here it grows vertically to mesh.



Thanks. What is the best method of attaching Fissidens to vertical wood hardscape to get it to grow in a tighter arrangement as per the second image, rather than 'leggy' as in the first image?


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Wookii said:


> What is the best method of attaching Fissidens to vertical wood hardscape to get it to grow in a tighter arrangement as per the second image, rather than 'leggy' as in the first image?


It isn't necessarily the method of attachment, it is just the frequency of trimming. Naturally pretty much all pleurocarpous mosses will grow long shoots, a bit like a stem plant, you need to prune them to keep them bushy. 

cheers Darrel


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## zozo

Wookii said:


> What is the best method of attaching Fissidens



My personal experience is glueing it, then start with a lot (enough) of it. And if you really have patience than the DSM with the yoghurt trick. 



Then once it is growing as Darrel describes, keep trimming.


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## RudeDogg1

Has anyone descovered if pearl moss works with the mincing up method yet? or even the normal ways


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## frothhelmet

Afro moss.....................Yes
Frequency of trimming required - due to highly compact growth, approximately once every year - or less.


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## Courtneybst

Bucephalandra Moss..... Yes


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## Hufsa

Hookeriaceae sp. "Rare Moss" / "Hooker Moss" .... Yes


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## rebel

dw1305 said:


> frequency of trimming.


Yes. Keep that bush trimmed with weekly trims. Just like maintaining a nice hedge.


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## Garuf

Mini Christmas- yes 
Krabi moss yes


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## Hufsa

Hydropogonella gymnostoma "Queen Moss" .... Yes


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## Hufsa

GHNelson said:


> Cameroon moss..............No


How does this thread handle disagreement I wonder 
I also thought Cameroon moss did not attach to hardscape, however today I discovered a strand I had tucked into a crack in the wood, has attached its new fronds and is firmly creeping along the wood.
The original colony has not been eager to attach to the coconut it was fastened on.
So it seems this moss should be changed to "Yes, sort of"?


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## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> I also thought Cameroon moss did not attach to hardscape, however today I discovered a strand I had tucked into a crack in the wood, has attached its new fronds and is firmly creeping along the wood.
> The original colony has not been eager to attach to the coconut it was fastened on.
> So it seems this moss should be changed to "Yes, sort of"?



It attached itself quite willingly to both rock and wood in my scape too.



Hufsa said:


> How does this thread handle disagreement I wonder



A fist fight! First rule of moss club - nobody talks about moss club! 😜


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## Courtneybst

Hufsa said:


> How does this thread handle disagreement I wonder
> I also thought Cameroon moss did not attach to hardscape, however today I discovered a strand I had tucked into a crack in the wood, has attached its new fronds and is firmly creeping along the wood.
> The original colony has not been eager to attach to the coconut it was fastened on.
> So it seems this moss should be changed to "Yes, sort of"?


I also had Cameroon moss attach to rock but this was emersed.


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## Konsa

frothhelmet said:


> Afro moss.....................Yes
> Frequency of trimming required - due to highly compact growth, approximately once every year - or less.


Hi
out of curiosity can you please share pic of this moss please 
Regards Konstantin


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## shangman

Hufsa said:


> How does this thread handle disagreement I wonder
> I also thought Cameroon moss did not attach to hardscape, however today I discovered a strand I had tucked into a crack in the wood, has attached its new fronds and is firmly creeping along the wood.
> The original colony has not been eager to attach to the coconut it was fastened on.
> So it seems this moss should be changed to "Yes, sort of"?


Same, my Cameroon moss attached to hardscape all the time, it even made a lovely cushion. It does well if it's attached with thread to wood, and often bits will float off and attach to wood in random places. Great moss.


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## GHNelson

shangman said:


> Same, my Cameroon moss attached to hardscape all the time, it even made a lovely cushion. It does well if it's attached with thread to wood, and often bits will float off and attach to wood in random places. Great miss.


Will change that to Yes!


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## zozo

Hufsa said:


> How does this thread handle disagreement I wonder



I guess when someone experiences and can show the contrary... 

And then it still could somebody says you don't have the moss you thought you have. Happened to me I bought a batch of alleged Christmas moss from a shop that specialized in aquatic mosses and months later I happily showed a picture and somebody said: "Don't know what it is but it ain't Christmas moss..." Now, what actually is Christmass moss? It's a fantasy name for Vesicularia montagnei. Since bryologists are very rare and seemingly there are a number of mosses that look alike with minor differences at certain stages of life or other circumstances that one would not only need the knowledge but also need a microscope to determine what is what. Mosses are versatile, it could be the same species that show different characteristics and vice versa while growing under different parameters. So we might have a lot of moss floating around with a beautiful name but incorrect ID, who knows? In most cases, it's don't argue with the label or compare pictures and pick a name that comes closest and go with that...

Then there is a tad of an issue in the vivarium hobbies with sharing experiences as exact universal facts. Thinking if this happens to me like this it likely goes for everybody else as well. (Might be a characteristic of human nature to think like this) And chances are rather high that this isn't always the case... It might be similar but that still ain't the same. Our hobby is too complex with an enormous variety of parameters and still, a hobby and far from and probably never will be an exact science.

My best guess is, that all mosses can attach if they get the correct circumstances to do this. 

Does this make this a useless thread?... No not at all, even tho the title is a tad too exact for its contents it still is a wonderful thread and some mosses do attach easier than others and sharing these experiences is still a very nice and helpful guideline in which mosses to invest time and money.  Or even as we do so often share the mosses and then we can again share new experiences or confirm they are the about the same or completely different.

An example does Ricia attach? A lot of people experience it doesn't it's a floating nuisance all over the place. This might be the case in a tank with a high turnover. Give Ricia a dead spot with a minimum of flow and a piece of wood it will attach to the wood and itself and stay put as long as you don't wiggle it too much around.


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## dw1305

Hi all,


zozo said:


> My best guess is, that all mosses can attach if they get the correct circumstances to do this.


I think so to. A lot of "aquarium" mosses that don't attach, will attach if grown terrestrially, <"for example in a DSM">.


zozo said:


> So we might have a lot of moss floating around with a beautiful name but incorrect ID, who knows?


I'd guess that most mosses sold under a <"scientific name"> are wrongly named.

cheers Darrel


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