# Here we go again. White stringy faeces.



## AverageWhiteBloke (31 Jul 2017)

Noticed my male Ram has gone off its food and white stringy faeces. Been here before and never actually cured it but this seems to have just came on and the fish is still in relative good shape so maybe this time. 

Any suggestions on meds to try that are shrimp safe? Working away at the minute so can't set up a hospital tank however I can get someone to dose meds to the main tank.

Was looking at metroplex, ideally something That could be picked up at P@H or Maidenhead otherwise I'll have to order on line and get be t day delivery. 

Cheers

Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


----------



## jon nash (31 Jul 2017)

try feeding frozen peas ,take outer shell off and drop in tank


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke (31 Jul 2017)

He's not eating right now Jon. Having a peck at dry foods then spitting it out. I noticed he was a bit elusive last night, Friday was eating frozen blood worm then tonight noticed the string faeces. 

Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


----------



## jon nash (31 Jul 2017)

rams do spit food out when feeding ,you say here we go again what happened last time ? how did you treat it? sorry don't know about meds and shrimp .hope it gets better.regards jon


----------



## Konsa (1 Aug 2017)

Hi 
Sorry to hear about your Ram.
U may want to consider treatment with Levamisole HCL.
It is available not too expensive as 8% solution as Harkers"Harka Verm" bird wormer.It is aquarium and shrimp safe.
It is light sensitive so treat with lights off.
Try to get some live food after treatment to see if is going to be tempted .
Regards Konsa


----------



## alto (1 Aug 2017)

Go ahead with the Metroplex - Seachem I'm guessing?
It can work as a "bath" but is far more effective as a medicated feed, pick up their Focus as well if possible - it assists with the binding of meds to the food particles, also "holds" the food~med complex together once in the tank 
Seachem also suggests use of Entice or Garlic Guard to improve palatability but none of my fish ever seemed to appreciate this; I found adding decapsulated brine shrimp eggs helped with food response (I often feed decaps to my fish)

I soak frozen bloodworms etc with metronidazole as these are foods my fish will still eat in medicated form - only feed medicated food when treating, you may also have to feed less frequently so that fish eat significant amounts (need to obtain therapeutic levels) 

Soak food for 10 - 15 minutes, then drain dry off the excess med/focus before feeding (I found that continued dumping of the medicated solution seemed to negatively impact shrimp population & some plants)
If I soaked food too long (eg 30min) my fish would just spit & refuse to eat 

If your fish will eat dry foods or freeze dried foods soaked with meds, these foods will often "soak up" more med than frozen foods 


From Seachem (possibly more details on their discussion forum)


> Use 1-2 measures (included) per every 40 L (10 US gallons). Repeat this dose every 48 hours for up to 3 weeks or until symptoms disappear.


Depending on your water parameters, you may need to dose higher or more frequently - best to do a 25% water change before each dose if possible (this is general procedure when medicating)

Once you're back home, I'd isolate the ram & any other fish not eating & continue treatment in a hospital tank
Treat the main tank with frequent water changes for the next couple weeks

Often with internal parasites, 2-3 treatments at intervals are needed to eradicate the disease agent (re various life stages)

Also consider why the ram became ill - try to identify stress factors


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke (1 Aug 2017)

Struggling to get hold of the Seachem Metroplex in the UK. Can't find anyone stocking it. Seems to be plenty of harkers stuff but not sure which one to get or dosage to see what size bottle can anybody link or suggest please?

Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


----------



## Konsa (1 Aug 2017)

Hi
Most likely U will find Harka verm as a 8% Levamisole solution in 100ml bottles.

http://www.harkersonline.co.uk/product/treatments/harka-verm-pigeon-worming-treatment-2/
 U are aiming for 2mg/l concentration. I was advised by Darrel  that I need 2ml of solution for my 70l tank but because is quite safe we agreed to dose 5ml to be on the safe side.
I purchased mine of ebay as was free shipping.
The original discussion is here:
http://www.loaches.com/disease-treatment/levamisole-hydrochloride-1/?searchterm=levamisole
Regards Konsa


----------



## Bart Hazes (1 Aug 2017)

Levaminsole, as mentioned, flubendazole (a bit gentler but needs longer treatment), or metroplex if they are still eating. If I have apistos that stop taking frozen food I often can still get them to eat live daphnia or grindal/white worms. Normally that gets them out of the funk but in that case I'm not sure if stopping to feed was due to gut infection or just mood swing/stress.


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke (1 Aug 2017)

Konsa said:


> Hi
> Most likely U will find Harka verm as a 8% Levamisole solution in 100ml bottles.



Thanks @Konsa , I have a 100ltr tank, not sure how to achieve 2mg/l concentration or how long to dose for so please could you advise if 1x100ml bottle will be enough to do this? Not sure if you linked the wrong page, was there a discussion on ukaps I can read? I can get this from Amazon next day so will order as soon as I know how much I need, sooner the better I think.



Bart Hazes said:


> Levaminsole, as mentioned, flubendazole (a bit gentler but needs longer treatment), or metroplex if they are still eating. If I have apistos that stop taking frozen food I often can still get them to eat live daphnia or grindal/white worms. Normally that gets them out of the funk but in that case I'm not sure if stopping to feed was due to gut infection or just mood swing/stress.



Thanks @Bart Hazes , from what I have seen the fish is interested in food but doesn't appear to swallow the food, it still looks like a well rounded fish so I would say it's at an early stage. I will see if I can get hold of Metroplex but it seems to be more a US product. Perhaps that's to do with sale of certain drugs in the UK. I know last time I tried to get hold of Metronidazole which was a long time ago I needed a vets prescription. Luckily a friends mother worked in a vets as a receptionist.


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke (1 Aug 2017)

alto said:


> Also consider why the ram became ill - try to identify stress factors



Not sure what might have caused it. The male Ram is the king of the tank, the water conditions are slightly higher than I would like but up to last week the pair were spawning. I don't have any other tanks running so no cross infection and no new fish additions other than a couple of Amanos about three weeks ago.



jon nash said:


> rams do spit food out when feeding ,you say here we go again what happened last time ? how did you treat it? sorry don't know about meds and shrimp .hope it gets better.regards jon



Always lost the fish before Jon, they basically starved to death. Seems very common (to me anyway) in cichlids, never experienced it in any other fish. I have previously had Rams and Discus suffer from it and as mentioned earlier the drugs I needed were hard to come by.


----------



## jon nash (1 Aug 2017)

is it bacteria from blood worm causing the problem ?


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke (1 Aug 2017)

jon nash said:


> is it bacteria from blood worm causing the problem ?



Do you mean from the Frozen Bloodworm? If so that's definitely something that's crossed my mind. I've only starting feeding it over the last couple of months at half a cube once per week.


----------



## alto (1 Aug 2017)

> from what I have seen the fish is interested in food but doesn't appear to swallow the food



This is a classic internal parasite symptom - so much so that without a (microscopic) diagnosis, it's where I'd start treatment

I've fed frozen bloodworm, brine shrimp, daphnia etc for years & have yet to experience any negative effect, I do feed Hikari (good sterilization process of all their frozen foods) & buy from shops with exemplary freezers (care of frozen foods) & store at home in a (manual defrost) chest freezer rather than a fridge freezer (seldom as cold & most run auto-defrost cycles)

The levamisole is much more effective/broad spectrum than metroplex & less resistance than observed with flubendazole
Begin with a 2mg/litre dosage (more effective at pH less than 7.2), you can slowly increase this to 10mg/l BUT I'd not subject shrimp etc to this - depending on fish species, they may appear unaffected or quite stressed by the levamisole bath
As with metroplex, switch to levamisole-soaked food for (much) better efficacy
Again soak for only 10min, it is less palatable than metroplex~food, again Focus will assist with binding (also seems to improve palatability)

Treat 3-5 days "On"
Then 5-7 days "Off" but restart medicated food sooner if symptoms persist/return
Treat 3-4 days
Monitor tank for next 1-2 weeks, a third treatment is unlikely unless there is a disease source in the tank 
- but depending on the disease agent, a repeat treatment at 3 & 6 months after the last medicated food cycle, may be beneficial


If buying the linked bird medication (unbelievable this is available without a script when Metroplex is not   ), it seems to be 80mg/ml so nicely concentrated allowing you to avoid introducing high levels of other components in the mix - hopefully bottle has an ingredient list



> Contains levamisole hydrochloride 8%w/v (80mg/ml).



80mg/ml x 3ml ~ 240mg in 100 litre tank volume ~ 2.4mg/ml
The dosage instructions for medication use in fish tanks is always done with bare tanks as the reference, so err on the side of slightly more rather than less - some percentage of the active ingredient will always be impacted by various tank factors (dissolved in water column, sequestered by filter, substrate etc)

Ideally,
Day 1 - 25% water change, add 3ml
Day 2 - repeat water change & dose 3ml
Day 3 - repeat water change & dose 3ml

NOTE - if fish still shedding & not eating, continue this water change & dose for Day 4, 5, 6, 7
After Day 7, continue as indicated below regardless of symptoms
Then restart the Cycle after the 72 hours of running carbon

(though if this is necessary I'd find another levamisole source, it should not be this ineffective unless there is some dosing issue, easiest is replace with a different lot # medication if possible, or purchase from a vet etc where you can see how the medication is stored - a major issue with online medicated compound sales regardless of market or drug, there are also black (?) market versions of drugs that are very well done "fakes")

Day 4 - 50% water change, run good quality activated carbon (Seachem etc for Reef tanks is much better binding than most sold for freshwater)
Day 5 - 7  25% water changes (this a standard disease treatment protocol)
Remove carbon after 72hours & dispose (note you won't need much reef carbon, maybe 10-20g to treat100l)

If fish seem back to normal, feed mediated food for 3 days, beginning 2 weeks after last levamisole dose (ie Day 17 or 18 ... 2 weeks is long enough for most parasite egg stages to begin hatching etc, not enough time for most parasites to restablish in numbers & mature to egg production stage)

The stringy white feces is intestinal shed - an effort by the host to remove/dislodge parasite from the intestinal tract, this usually contains some numbers of parasites (& possibly multistage) hence the daily water change & bottom syphoning of bare treatment tanks, all glass surfaces would also to wiped down daily


----------



## jon nash (1 Aug 2017)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Do you mean from the Frozen Bloodworm? If so that's definitely something that's crossed my mind. I've only starting feeding it over the last couple of months at half a cube once per week.


the only safe bloodworm is freeze dried.


----------



## Konsa (2 Aug 2017)

Hi
Yes one bottle is plenty.I am using it regularly once every 4-6 months as a prevention because I keep South American Puffers(Asselus puffers ) and feed them only live foods (bloodworm, glassworm,daphnia ,various snails,assellus aquaticus and Crangonyx pseudogracilis ,amano shrimp larvae)
I havent noticed any ill affect on shrimps(Amanos I keep with them).I do bigger waterchanges (80%)after treatment but I do one dose only as is prevention treatment.
Levamisole  is light sensitive so have your lights off when U dose it.
Regards Konsa


----------



## dw1305 (2 Aug 2017)

Hi all,





alto said:


> The levamisole is much more effective/broad spectrum than metroplex & less resistance than observed with flubendazole





Konsa said:


> U may want to consider treatment with Levamisole HCL.
> It is available not too expensive as 8% solution as Harkers"Harka Verm" bird wormer. It is aquarium and shrimp safe.


That is what <"I've done in the past">, I always suspect _Camallanus_ infection with Dwarf cichlids from commercial sources. The problem is that it can take ~6 weeks to show symptoms. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## dw1305 (2 Aug 2017)

Hi all,





jon nash said:


> the only safe bloodworm is freeze dried.


You can <"ranch" your own>. 

I've fed a lot of home-grown live blood-worm without any problem. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke (2 Aug 2017)

dw1305 said:


> That is what <"I've done in the past">, I always suspect _Camallanus_ infection with Dwarf cichlids from commercial sources. The problem is that it can take ~6 weeks to show symptoms.



Timescale sounds about right Darrel for showing symptoms. I tend to agree, only ever experienced this with Cichlids. Ordered the stuff from Amazon and it was dispatched this morning, hopefully it will turn up before the weekend while I'm about to carry out the meds and partial water changes.

Been having a think about the dosing. With dimensions of 600x450x450 most calculators suggest approx 125ltrs, not sure if that means filled to the brim. Allowing say 10% for hardscape which gets cancelled out by my canister which holds approx 8 to 10 ltrs. Would 4ml be enough caution you think?

Just to confirm I carry this out for 3days then if improvement I move on to 50% changes and carbon or just do it for the 7 days to be a bit belt and braces?

Thanks everybody for getting involved. Hope I can save a fish for once! Never had any luck with meds but that was probably due to not seeing any symptoms until the fish was severely weakened.


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke (2 Aug 2017)

Now then, as is always the way with my hobby here's something to add a bit of confusion to the whole situation.

Managed to get home this evening and some observations, male Ram is looking a bit stripey although still seems alert, displays to female, chases anything that strays too close it doesn't like the look of and comes to the top of the tank when he sees me approach.no signs of laboured breathing. Added some prima,  flakes and catfish pellets for a feed before lights out so the bottom dwellers get something and again Male pecks at a couple of bits of prima sort of half hearted and then leaves it alone, just about to go to bed as lights are knocking off shortly and notice that he's sitting on a load of eggs you can maybe just make out in the pic.

Now this pair have had many spawns before which have led to nothing after a couple of days. I find the male is a better parent than the female, so now I'm thinking is he reluctant to eat because of the eggs? However I can't deny that a couple of days ago white stringy faeces about inch long was there. Not lumpy like I have seen before in other fish but hair like.

Could the fish parent instinct be over riding the fact that the fish is it itself Ill. I think I should go ahead with the treatment anyway as a precautionary measure? Not intending trying to save any of the fry, they wouldn't stand a chance in a community tank anyway.




Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


----------



## Konsa (3 Aug 2017)

Hi
It is possible to be focusing on the eggs and  thats why is a bit of his food.Mine were when kept them.One parent on the eggs and the other eats.If they go for the food at all they should do it with their usual appetite. The Rams are very active spawning when young and slow down as they get more mature.
I also think that U should carry out the treatment. 
I personally never had luck with my Rams.They a sort of my Nemesis  and weaknesses.
Hope it all works out for you 
Regards Konsa


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke (3 Aug 2017)

Konsa said:


> Hi
> It is possible to be focusing on the eggs and  thats why is a bit of his food.Mine were when kept them.One parent on the eggs and the other eats.If they go for the food at all they should do it with their usual appetite. The Rams are very active spawning when young and slow down as they get more mature.
> I also think that U should carry out the treatment.
> I personally never had luck with my Rams.They a sort of my Nemesis  and weaknesses.
> ...


Know what you mean, they're my Nemesis as well and never had any luck with them. Shame really as they are a beautiful fish. If I lose these I probably will give up this time, nice to have some dwarfs in the tank purely for entertainment. The male is still sitting on the eggs tonight. 

Previously I have also kept Borelli and cacatuides (both probably spelt wrong) which seemed a lot less troublesome although the cockatoo seemed quite aggressive towards females when not trying to charm them. Where I live you are pretty limited when it comes to dwarf cichlids, Maidenhead Aquatics is probably the best bet but they come at a premium. Not sure how they would get on with shrimp either, I once read a post on UKAPS where a cockatoo introduced into the tank totally,  systematically destroyed a full tank of shrimp within hours  

My wormer has turned up today so hoping to make a start on it tomorrow night while I have the weekend to do water changes. Being light sensitive I was thinking of doing a 25% change and dose just before lights out, or will Lights need to be off for the full duration? Still a bit unsure of the dose as well. 

Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


----------



## Konsa (4 Aug 2017)

Hi 
I dosed it on lights out and kept the lights as normal.
For your tank size (100l)4 ml should be enough I double dosed it in my tank with no ill effects on filters and shrimp as is quite safe.
Regards Konsa


----------



## alto (4 Aug 2017)

Given your further observations, I'd just dose for 3 days, & then observe
Increase water change frequency for the next 1-2 weeks (don't drive yourself crazy, just do what you can) 


Male ram seems well enough in photos, it's common for good parent fish to concentrate on parenting over eating, you might try dropping some (small amount) brine shrimp or other favourite food in his zone - after distracting the rest of the tank  inhabitants (with lots of food) ....  brine shrimp, daphnia, calanus are "better" foods when gut issues are suspected 

I usually medicate at a time when I can observe tank for an hour or so, just in case of adverse reactions 
- large (75% - 90%) water change is quickest way to deal with stress response, then add carbon ... catching & removing fish is usually more stressful - so near end of photoperiod or dim lighting 

Tank volume is usually calculated as maximum water that might be held within the space, in most aquariums, actual water volume may be significantly less than this (theoretical) value - medication toxicity is rarely a consideration in fish tanks as the difference between therapeutic & toxic levels is usually very broad (think factors  of 5, 10, 20 etc)
Most pet trade home use medications err on the side of extreme caution - I always confirm therapeutic doses (of the active ingredient) for ornamental fish 
University of Florida Fish Veterinary department has a series of articles developed for aquaculture, hobbyists 
I've included the Fish Disease link but there are many husbandry articles as well

As I mentioned previously, all the "stuff" in aquaria tend to reduce medication levels in the water column, so again overdosing is rare & "generous" dosing is usually required for effective treatment levels.

Most medications are "stressful" to some degree so it's not unusual to note lessened activity/coloration, 
though in the case of external parasites, it's common to observe increased activity & general fish "happiness" within an hour of dosing.


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke (4 Aug 2017)

Thanks for the detailed information, I suspect the eggs will have gone tonight if true to previous spawns so that should tell me if he's back interested in food . Regarding water changes, I generally do a 50% tomorrow or would you suggest 25% each day just before dosing, observe for an hour then lights off for the next three days?

I'm going to start tonight as that gives me three days for any remedial action before I go away to work on Monday.

Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke (4 Aug 2017)

So here's the dilemma, never a dull moment in this tank. Got home and found I have wrigglers which I've never got to that stage before unless it was the pair moving them to a better place.
I have to ask the question is this treatment safe for fry? Thing is there's high probability that these fry will either get eaten by the parents or other fish or probably sucked into the filter although I do have a filter guard I could fit. I also don't have any food available for them if miracles happened. 
I suppose the well being of the adult is priority as they will probably spawn again if the treatment works. 

Just don't want to execute some fry without being 100% about the adult. 

Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke (4 Aug 2017)

Final thought, is there any problems using Prime at the same time? Word on the street is that it's very potent stuff at removing nasties. Is there any chance it could react with the wormer?  I don't have any other dechlorinator right now but I could get some tomorrow.

Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


----------



## alto (4 Aug 2017)

50% water changes are grand - whatever your routine changes are, usually works best as that's what you & your fish are accustomed to

If male ram seems fine & no symptoms in other fish, it's likely fine to hold off on the levamisole bath - don't forget you can start feeding medicated food (which is generally better for all involved, anyway) - I'd use a 10mg/ml solution for soaking foods, just add 1ml (well shaken/stirred) bottle solution + 7ml water, soak food 10min or so, discard extra solution & try to just add food tank 

Can you move wigglers to another tank?

Can you add a sponge "prefilter" to your intake tube? 
Even just raising intake a few inches from tank bottom will help wrt fry

Re Prime, just wait 10 min or so after adding before adding in med - I assume you're only dosing for 1-2X tank volume


----------



## alto (4 Aug 2017)

Fry food - very finely grated frozen brine shrimp works well, not as nutrient dense as live bbs or decaps but sufficient to sustain life, look for pink fry, feed small amounts as often as possible - this is the advantage of live foods, they often persist for an hour or so in the tank

Note you can decapsulate brine shrimp eggs while waiting for the hatch (24-36h depending on temp, bbs should be fed within a couple hours after hatching re nutrition & size)


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke (4 Aug 2017)

Damn never thought of treating the food. I just gave them a little pinch to see what happened. They look like they have stashed the wrigglers around the back of the stone from the flat piece at the front, going by how defensive they are I think there must be some still about.

Can't really get them out, I have a shrimp guard but they may be small enough to go through that. I think I will hold off on the treatment until tomorrow, my filter is about due a clean and so is the pipework so I might as well do that in the morning. Will also try some medicated food so thanks for the instructions. Large WC tomorrow and I'll reevaluate, if fry gone and he's eating I might try med food or if he's not make a start on treating the tank. I was too busy filming to actually see if the piece of Prima he grabbed was actually swallowed. Doh





Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


----------



## alto (5 Aug 2017)

He looks quite alright in the video, offer some favourite foods, especially if you can deliver some just to their territory (turkey blaster?)  - be careful of overfeeding the area, just a few brine shrimp per fish


----------



## alto (6 Aug 2017)




----------



## AverageWhiteBloke (6 Aug 2017)

Male was sitting on about 20 or so wrigglers yesterday which are preparing to swim. He keeps catching them and spitting them back on the stone taking it in turns to chase nearby fish away. 
Tried feeding some medicated food last night, used frozen brine shrimp, flakes, prima and even done half an algae wafer so everybody got some. The Rams had a peck but didn't really eat and the rest of the fish are hanging out in a back corner to stay out of the Rams way who extremely touchy right now as you can imagine.
Unfortunately I'm away working next week so I guess it's in the hands of the gods now. I'll probably get a better idea of who's eating and who's not when the fry have gone sadly.



Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


----------

