# Cardinals with EI + hard water



## madlan (6 May 2011)

Hi all,

What would your opinion be regarding keeping soft water fish (e.g large shoal of Cardinals) in an EI fertilised aquarium with hard water? I’m worried about large water changes changing any adjusted water parameters?

I have a 50gpd RO unit but 50% water changes once a week make it impractical to use, I was hoping to use just straight tap water. What about adding peat or other chemicals to the filter? I guess each week the 50% water change is going to raise the hardness for several days until the peat etc softens the water again, not ideal!

My tap water is:
pH 7.2
GH 340 mg/L (ppm)
KH 260 mg/L (ppm)


----------



## ceg4048 (7 May 2011)

Hi,
   You need to stop worrying about hard water and just get on with it. Unless you are trying to breed cardinals there is little to no effect. Changing your water will keep your tank clean.  You have a personal guarantee from me that keeping your water clean is 100X more important to cardinals than keeping it soft.

Cheers,


----------



## madlan (7 May 2011)

Hi Clive,

I was ready to roll with EI + 50% tap water changes but I have a large shoal of wild cardinals available that I'd love to keep in this large aquarium (323 litres). From Google research it seems they can suffer a premature death due to calcium deposits in their kidneys? I think my GH is pushing it slightly for them no?
I don’t intend on breeding them though – do you think a few weeks acclimatisation from an RO\tap mix to just tap water would help?

The other option would be a method that requires less water changes, PMDD for example?

Thanks


----------



## John S (7 May 2011)

Hi Madlan,
I don't have my water stats but I'm in Welwyn Garden City so I suspect my tap water parameters would be similar. I got 12 Cardinals about 18 months back. I don't use EI (yet) but do 40-50% water changes per week anyway on a 160L. I've lost 2 in that time due to whitespot, other than that they look perfectly healthy.

Cheers.


----------



## Piper (7 May 2011)

Are all cardinals wild? I have 10 in a 240l and dose ei with 50% wc every week with heated tap water. Some of my fish are a few years old. I'm in London sw17 so would say you are fine. but I don't know if wild cards are different to what's in the LFS?


----------



## GHNelson (7 May 2011)

Hi Madlan
I live in Hemel.
Ive had cardinals for years......there's in no problem with hard water as Ceg said clean water is the priority and that's correct.
Soft water is probably needed for breeding purposes only.
Just make sure the water is approx the same temperature as the aquarium water when doing changes.
Cheers
hoggie


----------



## ghostsword (7 May 2011)

I live in London where the water is almost pure rock. 

I dose EI and do two 50% water changes a week, use tap water straight from the garden hose, and got about 20 cardinals for just over a year without issues.


.


----------



## ceg4048 (7 May 2011)

Exactly. The majority of cardinals found in LFS are wild caught but they are also being bred quite regularly. For best breeding success soft acidic water is the way to go, no doubt. For general keeping, as indicated by the other posters, hardness is much less relevant. The fish are sensitive to water quality, but water quality means "clean", with low NH4/NO2 which are very toxic. In all fishkeeping literature you'll see that NO3 takes a beating, but as with the other posters, my cardinals, as well as my other characins and dwarf chiclids live for years in my GH 25+, heavily dosed tank. Organic waste buildup is what kills fish, because the primary product of it's breakdown is NH4=>NO2 which does the damage, not only due to direct toxicity, but also to the fact that it robs the water column of Oxygen in order to be broken down on it's way to becoming NO3. At the end of the day, NO3 is simply the smoking gun.

If the fish do suffer from kidney stones, then that would be a pathological mechanism due to diet, illness and so forth, not due to Calcium transfer from the water.

It doesn't really matter whether you dose PMDD or EI. You still need clean water and that is best achieved by changing as much water as possible and as often as possible. RO water won't save you if it gets dirty.

Cheers,


----------



## Morgan Freeman (7 May 2011)

I live in hard water central and never had a problem with cardinals or neons.


----------



## madlan (8 May 2011)

The aquarium is just over 300 litres and filtered by a Fluval FX5 loaded with ceramic media, combined with 50% weekly water changes I don't think water quality should be much of an issue if I keep the stocking density low.

Thanks all!


----------



## roadmaster (19 May 2011)

Nearly all literature, with respect to cardinal tetra's suggest soft acidic water, and a bit warmer than what many other tetra's enjoy. Not sure why anyone who researches fishes before purchasing would consider placing these particular fishes in hard alkaline water or any other softwater species for that matter,Yet many do so.
What is the logic? A few generations removed from the wild  does not, has not, in my expierience (many other's) make these fishes more adaptable to hard alkaline water.
Most expierienced hobbyist's  would suggest that soft water species will fair better longer,in soft water and hard water fishes, will fair better in more alkaline water if it is the longterm health of the fishes that are of primary concern.
Have followed this principal for 40 years and it has served me and scores of other's well.
Just my two cent's.


----------



## niru (19 May 2011)

Hi Madlan

my water has gH > 20 and kH > 15. I have Cardinals for last 3+ years. I do a 50-70 % WC every week, straight from the tap. I have never had any problems with them either, nor do they get any shock/dullness after WC. Even their luster/radiance doesnt shrink (if thats a measure of their uneasiness!) either. 

My lfs told me that these guys can survive typically abt 5 years or so.. So in lack of any controlled experiment to isolate the kidney issues, I wouldnt jump to conclusions about water hardness as the sole culprit. The lfs guys also told me that Cardinals are a wee bit sensitive than other tetras (or thats what they learnt before joining the profession), but in their experience never had this problem as well.. The daily CO2 injection periods lead to pH swings as well (on a smoother timescales though), but these also fail to affect my cardinals' behaviours. I wont worry about this. 
My 1 1/2 cents


----------



## ceg4048 (19 May 2011)

roadmaster said:
			
		

> Nearly all literature, with respect to cardinal tetra's suggest soft acidic water, and a bit warmer than what many other tetra's enjoy. Not sure why anyone who researches fishes before purchasing would consider placing these particular fishes in hard alkaline water or any other soft water species for that matter,Yet many do so.


Yes and if you research carefully, you'll find that nearly all literature suggest that nutrients cause algae. If you buy a dropchecker made by reputable manufacturers, the literature that comes with it suggests that you fill the checker with tank water. These are all wrong, as we ourselves have proven, and this also means that hobbyist literature is subject to revision. 

First of all, in order for the literature to be valid, it's suggestions must at least match the empirical data from hobbyists - and it simply isn't the case, as demonstrated by the hobbyists that have posted. How long do your soft water fish live in your soft water tank? Have you actually set up multiple tanks side-by-side to test your conviction? Second of all, just about all the non-Rift Valley fishes soled in LFS are soft water species and it would not be pragmatic for everyone to use RO units to accommodate these fish. The empirical evidence shows quite clearly that dirty water kills more fish by a huge margin than any faults due to water hardness.

It's easy to regurgitate what we have been fed in The Matrix because this is how we are programmed. How does the literature explain the success of those keeping soft water fish in hard water? Does the literature actually explain the mechanics of the effects of hard water on soft water fish? I never see an explanation of this in any of the hobby literature. They only ever issue forth dogma, and like lemmings, everyone simply follows the lead, and that's why there are so many problems keeping healthy tanks, because The Matrix trains everyone from birth to focus on the wrong things and to ignore the most important things.

Cheers,


----------



## roadmaster (19 May 2011)

I believe there is enough evidence from my expieriences, as well as forums littered with those who have been largely unsuccessful with keeping fishes that thrive in soft water in hard alkaline conditions,,,that one cannot easily dismiss  suggested water parameter's.
 I can wear shoes that are too small for my feet,but am much more comfortable when wearing shoes that fit properly.
Would agree  that more fishes are killed by poor water conditions than nearly all other factors combined, but why court unnecessary problems ?
I would no more suggest to new hobbyist's that cardinal tetra's would be fine in  hard alkaline water, than I would suggest Tanganyikan Featherfins, shellies, or the common mollie would be suited for soft acidic condition's .
The majority of them won't in my humble opinion.


----------



## Morgan Freeman (19 May 2011)

Anecdotes aren't evidence, although they can give us a good indication of what we should be testing. How would you isolate the different factors to determine it's harder water that causes problems?


----------



## plantbrain (20 May 2011)

Isn't easier to blame EI for everything?   

Why deduce?
Why really know?

hehe...........

Come on, it just *feels right.*  


regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## roadmaster (20 May 2011)

plantbrain said:
			
		

> Isn't easier to blame EI for everything?
> 
> Why deduce?
> Why really know?
> ...





No, I am not attempting to place blame ,Merely suggesting that if one chooses to place soft water fishes in hard alkaline water(not sure why one would) and the fishes do poorly,, I might consider cutting the source water with Filtered rainwater,distilled water,or R/O water and then see if fishes fair better.
I use a modified version of EI in a low tech ,low light tank with numerous fishes, and they actually try to eat the dry fertz when I am too lazy to mix them with some water.(have not seen any deaths from this or sick fishes)
Other than GH booster ,or  Seachem's Equillibrium,I'm not sure dry salts,fertz, NPK, do anything to increase Hardness or create softer more acidic condition's  so much as they increase Conductivity TDS ?


----------



## niru (20 May 2011)

Hi roadmaster

a question indicating my naivity: when you say fish "fair better" or "do poorly", how do you "measure" or "know" this? And against what criteria/benchmarks do you "calibrate" this and/or isolate the water hardness as THE issue? 

I have cardinals and platys & mollis all in the same tank (kH > 15, gH > 20), all are sufficiently fed to keep them a wee bit hungry and they always smile & pose nicely for my camera action  . But I would be really interested to know if I am being cruel in putting cardinals in hard water. of course if the water is too hard (dip the finger for a minute & its gets white by deposits) then surely theres an issue at hand


----------



## ghostsword (20 May 2011)

plantbrain said:
			
		

> Isn't easier to blame EI for everything?
> 
> Why deduce?
> Why really know?
> ...



There is no way that EI can cause any bad effects on fish, on the contrary. Something very similar to EI is used by homeopaths, they call it tissue salts, and this people. Go to holland and Barrett and ask for it.

My wife has been using tissue salts, and some o her family in south Africa , for a long time now, way before I knew what was EI.

I am sure that soon we can say, for example as I cannot prove it, that I fish have dull colours dose this, are old dose that, etc.

I will look for a chart about tissue salts and post here.
http://www.alternativevet.org/tissue_salts.htm



.


----------



## Morgan Freeman (20 May 2011)

Homeopathy isn't dangerous because there's nothing in it.


----------



## Morgan Freeman (20 May 2011)

roadmaster said:
			
		

> plantbrain said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Of course, obviously the preferred solution would be soft water fishes in soft water, but if plenty of people aren't having problems, them perhaps the issue needs looking into further to establish what is causing issues for those with soft water fish in hard conditions.


----------



## ghostsword (20 May 2011)

Morgan Freeman said:
			
		

> Homeopathy isn't dangerous because there's nothing in it.



 

Ok, so if Homeopathy is not dangerous, and EI is like Homeopathy for plants and fish, then it is obvious that EI is not dangerous, just like Homeopathy is not. 

But with regards to soft water and hardwater, I am sure that fish are able to adapt to whatever condition they are in, is not like we are putting salt water fish on fresh water tanks.


----------



## Morgan Freeman (20 May 2011)

ghostsword said:
			
		

> Morgan Freeman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But EI isn't homeopathy for plants :/ Homeopathy works on the principle that the more diluted something is the more potent it is, plus a few magic shakes. Anything homeopathic isn't dangerous purely because it's diluted to such an extent that it may aswell just be water.

I've just looked up Tissue Salts and they're not really homeopathic, they're just diluted 3x or maybe up to 6x. Still enough to maintain enough of the active ingredients. Basically, EI is safe for other reasons.


----------



## BigTom (20 May 2011)

Apologies for going off topic, but I really can't resist -


----------



## niru (20 May 2011)

Oh! So you mean we ought to give our cardinals some white pills before putting them in hard water    :idea: 

Jokes apart, is there any thread on some respectable fish keeping forums regarding hardwater toxicity on cardinals?


----------



## ghostsword (20 May 2011)

Morgan Freeman said:
			
		

> ghostsword said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You may be right.. 

Tissue salts are not prescribed homeopathically but nutritionally. For the homeopathic prescribing picture of the same substances see the A-Z links at the top of the normal materia medica. Instead of the dilution having the ratio of 1:99 as in homeopathic remedies, the Tissue salts are prepared to the ratio of 1:9, which means that they still contain physical quantities, although minute, of the original substances. Rather than treating "like with like" though these tissue salt remedies treat ailments by correcting imbalances or deficiencies in the body's cell nutrition.
http://www.homeopathy-help.net/Theory/FAQS/tissue.html

I am not an expert on homeopathy, just that the family swears by the effectiveness of it and the use of tissue salts and I swear by the effectiveness of EI, and EI being very similar to tissue salts, they do seem to go together.


----------



## Morgan Freeman (20 May 2011)

Homeopathic can work, but purely due to the placebo effect, which should never be underestimated. There is no peer reviewed study demonstrating effectiveness beyond the level you would expect for a placebo. But anyway, going way off topic!

I know more about homeopathy than EI


----------



## dw1305 (20 May 2011)

Hi all,


> Nearly all literature, with respect to cardinal tetra's suggest soft acidic water, and a bit warmer than what many other tetra's enjoy..........Most experienced hobbyist's would suggest that soft water species will fair better longer,in soft water and hard water fishes, will fair better in more alkaline water if it is the longterm health of the fishes that are of primary concern. Have followed this principal for 40 years and it has served me and scores of other's well.


I know where the other posters are coming from, but I tend to agree with this. I think the factor that we tend to forget is that our planted tanks, with lots of flow and water changes, are often providing much better conditions (in terms of water quality and a complex environment that reduces stress) than the average fish keeper does, meaning that our fish persist even in water that is sub-optimal for them in terms of chemical composition. It is analogous to the way that many fish breeders can breed their fish in relatively bare tanks, if they supply the minimum requirements (just a pair of fish, good diet, clean water, spawning mop etc.) for that species to spawn. 

In the fish I know most about , the SA dwarf cichlids, a few species are difficult to maintain away from a very limited set of parameters, including very clean, low conductivity, acid water(_Biotecus spp._, _Apistogramma diplotaenia_ for example), but most of the others can be quite successfully maintained, and will live healthy normal lives, in most highly oxygenated clean water, with a varied diet and a complex environment to live in.  Normally what they won't do is breed successfully, and even if fertile eggs are produced, no free swimming fry will result. As I'm only interested in fish I can maintain over more than one generation, I now know that my rain-water is too hard and "salty" to successfully breed most "black water" cichlids, even used at 100% rain-water. _Dicrossus filamentosus_ is an example, I've kept them, they spawn, but I never raised them successfully.

cheers Darrel


----------



## niru (20 May 2011)

Great info Darrel!

If I got it correct then fish kind of compromise the water chemical composition to some level if they find a very "natural" environment in terms of plants, shaded areas, resting and hiding places etc.. Thes pros in planted tanks help mitigate (to some level) the cons of having a sub-optimal water chemistry. Cardinals could be more resilient than your Cichlids and so can still survive in a wider water-hardness scale. Guess its pretty difficult to gauge this stress enhancement Vs. reduction scenarios.. But a good line of thought to ponder about..

I always assumed that if fish are active, in shape, and a brightly/nicely coloured then they are not stressed. Perhaps we are in the green zone, but maybe only 90-95%. Providing them with their home-water would make it a perfect 100% comfort. Is there any stats on fish in "biotrope tanks" doing better than others?


----------



## gmartins (20 May 2011)

The main difference between marine and freshwater fish is related to osmoregulation between their bodies and the medium (water). freshwater fish are hipertonic in relation to the medium, whereas marine fish are hipotonic. That is the main reason why freshwater fish cannot survive in saltwater and vice versa.

Clearly, the differece betewen soft and hard fresh water is much smaller than between fresh and salt water. What I do not know, however, is how kh (and perhaps gh) are to affect fish osmoregulation, or if they have compensatory mechanisms. Some fish clearly do (brackish water fish).

GM


----------



## PunjabiDragon (13 Feb 2021)

roadmaster said:


> I believe there is enough evidence from my expieriences, as well as forums littered with those who have been largely unsuccessful with keeping fishes that thrive in soft water in hard alkaline conditions,,,that one cannot easily dismiss  suggested water parameter's.
> I can wear shoes that are too small for my feet,but am much more comfortable when wearing shoes that fit properly.
> Would agree  that more fishes are killed by poor water conditions than nearly all other factors combined, but why court unnecessary problems ?
> I would no more suggest to new hobbyist's that cardinal tetra's would be fine in  hard alkaline water, than I would suggest Tanganyikan Featherfins, shellies, or the common mollie would be suited for soft acidic condition's .
> The majority of them won't in my humble opinion.


Hi Roadmaster, and everyone else,
I am brand new in this wonderful.

Excuse my ignorance here, but how does one get soft water? I just added cardinals in my tank, and they seem to be thriving but it’s only been a week. I’m reading that they do prefer soft water, and I’d love to give it to them. But I don’t know where I can get any. Being in Chicago, the water here is very hard. Is there a way to buy/create this without messing with RO. Again, excuse my ignorance.


----------



## Tim Harrison (13 Feb 2021)

Welcome, you've revived an ancient thread 

Most folk use RO or reverse osmosis water, many have their own filters. In the UK we also have pure water vending machines.
But I don't think it really matters, many fish are captive bred these days, often in local hard water so they're used to it.
Back in the day, I kept loads of different wild caught, so called "soft water species", in very hard water including cardinals and most thrived


----------

