# Not A Clue About EI Or Dry Ferts !



## Swan900 (21 Jul 2010)

I really want to change my fertilizing system to a dry fert one due to im fed up of going through bottles of branded fertilizers. But the problem is Im very confused and have no idea where to start. I have read the UKAPS EI article and still am lost. I am also a member of an american plant forum and have asked alot there too, yet still lost! The thing is with american advise is that its different here due to different measuring systems and differing product availability in the US and UK.

So what do I know? Well I know that I will need to weigh and make up my own dry fert concoctions. Thats it. I dont know what to use, how much of it to use and when! So please help me. For your help ive put bellow the current tank I would use the EI system on. Thanks for your help and please, keep it simple!

63 Litre Tank
Two 15W T8's (Hagen Aqua-Glo & Arcadia Tropical Original) for 8 and a half hours a day
Inejcted C02

Plants; Bolbitis Heudolotti x1
Cryptocoryne Wendtii Red x1
Anubias Nana x1
Ludwgia Mullertii x1
Cryptocoryne Beckettii x1
Cryptocoryne Pontederiifolia x1
Cryptocoryne Ciliata x1
Vesicularis Dubyana (bunch)


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## ceg4048 (21 Jul 2010)

Hi,
   The EI article has a sample dosing program that you can use since your tank is close enough to a reference 20G tank. I'll cut and paste from the article  here:

Sunday â€“ 50% or more Water Change then dose [3/16 teaspoon KNO3] + [1/16 teaspoon KH2PO4] + [Â½ teaspoon MgSO4]
Monday â€“ 1/16 teaspoon Trace Mix
Tuesday - [3/16 teaspoon KNO3] + [1/16 teaspoon KH2PO4] + [Â½ teaspoon MgSO4]
Wednesday - 1/16 teaspoon Trace Mix
Thursday - [3/16 teaspoon KNO3] + [1/16 teaspoon KH2PO4] + [Â½ teaspoon MgSO4]
Friday â€“ Rest
Saturday - Rest

NPK (Nitrogen+Phosphorus+Potassium) Mixture for 20 Gallon Tank
1 month = 4 Weeks
3 doses of NPK per week
Therefore there are 12 doses of NPK per month.
Multiply a single dose teaspoon value by 12 => [3/16 tsp KNO3]*12 = 2 Â¼ tsp KNO3
[1/16 tsp KH2PO4]*12 = Â¾ tsp KH2PO4
[1/2 tsp MgSO4]*12 = 6 tsp MgSO4
Add these to 600ml of tap or distilled water

Now this mixture must serve 12 doses so each dose is 600ml/12 = 50ml
This makes life easier because you need only dose 50ml of this NPK solution 3 times per week.

Always separate the trace mix from the NPK because it has a tendency to react with the phosphate. You can dose the trace mix as a powder or if it more convenient add 8 * 1/16 tsp => Â½ teaspoon to 200 ml of water and dose 25 ml two times per week.

Cheers,


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## GHNelson (21 Jul 2010)

Hi Swan
Download the calculator below to your desktop and away you go.
Just change the aquarium dimensions at the top of the page.
You can also change the weights of salts to get the desired ppm ratio for your aquarium.
Then you just add  all the ferts to 500ml of water.
Except trace done in a separate 500ml bottle.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=11885
All the information is there in the above topic and the calculator.
Regards
hoggie


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## Swan900 (22 Jul 2010)

Ok so I've looked around at suppliers and found the following;

Potassium Nitrate - 500g = Â£7.82  
Monopotassium Phosphate - 500g = Â£7.82 
Magnesium Sulphate - 500g = Â£4.96 
Trace Elements - 500g = Â£19.36 

Is that all of the dry ferts that I will need? Also the calculator was a bit too confusing for me. I would rather use the tablespoons and teaspoons way. But how do you know or measure 1/16 of a teaspoon? Isnt that really hard? Thanks again for the great help!


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## GHNelson (22 Jul 2010)

Hi Swan
You will need Potassium Sulphate.K2S04.
You don't need that much trace 250 grams is loads.
Cut back on the Potassium Phosphate Kh2p04.
Regards
hoggie


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## bigmatt (22 Jul 2010)

You might not need the Mag. Sulphate - ceg4048 would be the best person to advise on that.  Get a copy of your local water report (can sometimes be found online) and it'll tell you how much mg is in your tap water.
Best way to measure 1/16 tsp is not to do it! multiply up your figures (eg multiply by eight to get half a teaspoon) and work it out accordingly!
Hope this helps,
Matt


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## ceg4048 (22 Jul 2010)

Guys, you don't need K2SO4 if you are dosing the proper levels of KN03.

A half kilo of the powders will serve a 20G tank for about 3 years, so you might want to think about buying smaller amounts if it's cheaper.



			
				Swan900 said:
			
		

> I would rather use the tablespoons and teaspoons way. But how do you know or measure 1/16 of a teaspoon? Isnt that really hard? Thanks again for the great help!


You need to relax and to re-read my previous post. Can you not see where I advised to make up a one month mixture at a time? Can you measure out 2 Â¼ tsp of KNO3? How tough is is to measure Â¾ tsp KH2PO4? If that's too tough then measure out a full teaspoon. How about 6 teaspoon MgSO4? Add all these to 600ml of water and be done with it. then dose the 50 ml instead of the tsp values I show in the top part of the post.

Cheers,


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## CeeJay (22 Jul 2010)

Hi all


			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> A half kilo of the powders will serve a 20G tank for about 3 years, so you might want to think about buying smaller amounts if it's cheaper.


This is even more relevant to the Trace (the expensive one), if you're on a budget.
To give you some idea, I'm running a 45 gallon tank and I bought 100g of the Trace when I started EI some 14 months ago and have still got enough for another 3 months dosing  ,  therefore 100g of Trace would last you the best part of 3 years on your 20 gallon (although I note that AE now only sell it starting at 250g   ).


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## Swan900 (22 Jul 2010)

Ok so here is where Im at. So my list now would be the following dry ferts;

Potassium Nitrate - 250g 
 Â£4.75 Â£4.75   

Monopotassium Phosphate - 250g 
 Â£4.75 Â£4.75   

Magnesium Sulphate - 250g 
 Â£2.91 Â£2.91   

Trace Elements - 100g 

I cut back on the amounts due to you guys said it would be cheaper and 500ml is a lot. So with the KN03,KH2PO4 and MgSO4 I will make my own solution by adding 2 Â¼ tsp KNO3, Â¾ tsp KH2PO4 and 6 tsp MgSO4 to 600ml of water. I will then add 50ml of this on Sunday, Tuesday and Thursday. With the Trace elements I will add Â½ teaspoon to 200 ml of water and add on Monday & Wednesday. Just then a 50% water change on the Sunday. If thats it then I have it. Im now scared thats not it! Thanks again for the help!


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## chris1004 (22 Jul 2010)

Hi Swan900,

That's it... Nothing to it really. No hidden gremlins pure and simple. Its no harder than making a cup of coffee. A few teaspoons of this and a few of that, stir/shake, and your good to go. 

The only thing that you may want to consider is changing your dosing days. I find it easier to remember to dose Trace on Tuesdays and Thursdays .i.e. if the day stars with a T then its a trace day. That means Macros are dosed Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. Water change Sunday evening or Monday morning.

Regards, Chris.


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## CeeJay (22 Jul 2010)

Hi Swan900


			
				Swan900 said:
			
		

> If thats it then I have it.


You do   
So if you now do what you've just written, you'll be fine  


			
				Swan900 said:
			
		

> With the Trace elements I will add Â½ teaspoon to 200 ml of water and add on Monday & Wednesday.


Just 25ml of this per dose though


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## GHNelson (22 Jul 2010)

chris1004 said:
			
		

> Hi Swan900,
> 
> That's it... Nothing to it really. No hidden gremlins pure and simple. Its no harder than making a cup of coffee. A few teaspoons of this and a few of that, stir/shake, and your good to go.
> 
> ...


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (22 Jul 2010)

Swan900

It sound hard but is not - easy peasy.

Measure out 600 mls of water tap water in a plastic jug and add the following ingredients: These quantities are as per previous thread posting.

KN03 = 2.25 tps - http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/potassi ... p-474.html
KH2PO4 = 0.75 tps - http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/mono-po ... p-475.html
MGS04 = 6 tps - http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/magnesi ... p-555.html

Stir until all the powdered granuals have disappeared, they dissolve quicker using warm water and tip the fliud into one of these: http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/dry-fer ... 5_274.html - this has increments of 10,15,20 & 25 mls, then on Mon / Wed & Fri squeeze the bottle until the desired about of fliud required and pour into tank.

As for the trace mix measure out 200 mls of water tap water in a plastic jug and add the following: 
CSM-B = 1/2 tps - http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/trace-m ... -3906.html

Stir until all the powdered granuals have disappeared, they dissolve quicker using warm water and tip the fliud into one of these: http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/dry-fer ... 5_274.html - this has increments of 10,15,20 & 25 mls, then on Tues & Thurs squeeze the bottle until the desired about of fliud required and pour into tank.

Once you have done your first batch of fertz, you will say to yourselve "Well that was easy" what the hell was I panicing about.

Regards
paul.


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## Swan900 (23 Jul 2010)

Well there you go! Thanks guys and members of UKAPS. Alot better help than the other plant forums! SO THATS IT! EI from now on then. Only question I have is does anyone know any suitable retailers of dosing bottles? I can only seem to find a 250ml one which is too small for my 600ml batch. Thanks again!


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## GHNelson (23 Jul 2010)

Very good Paul   
Walk into any supermarket preferably Marks and Spencer's go to the bottled fruit juice section purchase 2 bottles of your favourite juice they come in various sizes 300ml, 500ml  and there may be a 1litre also not to sure.
Drink the contents, there you have 2 empty bottles, clean with fresh water peel the label off, make up another label 
with Trace marked and dosage/days, do the same with NPK label stick them on the bottles add the mixtures too the bottles.There you go re-cycled bottles.   Nice cheap fertilizer.
Easy peasy  
hoggie


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## CeeJay (23 Jul 2010)

You could also use one of these, as they have dosing increments marked on the bottle at 10,15, 20 & 25ml.
500ml bottle
or
1000ml bottle
Quick and easy to use


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## Swan900 (23 Jul 2010)

CeeJay said:
			
		

> You could also use one of these, as they have dosing increments marked on the bottle at 10,15, 20 & 25ml.
> 500ml bottle
> or
> 1000ml bottle
> Quick and easy to use



Yeah thanks guys. I think Im going to get the above ones. I was looking at the the other day actually and there fairly cheap. Thanks again! By the way with the whole EI thing. I have a little bit of Cynobacteria and an even smaller bit of hair algae. Its it safe to start doing EI or will it cause it to grow? Thanks!


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## Swan900 (23 Jul 2010)

Ok so I have purhcase my Dry Ferts and have my new found knowledge all ready. Thanks agian guys. Just a couple more questions. As said before I have a little HA and BGA, is it ok to start EI or not? Also is it detrimental to the fish in anyway due to Nitrates? I suppose adding the Nitrate part will be good to rid the BGA. Also I have posted a picture of my tank, is it planted enough to start EI? Thanks again! Swan


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## chris1004 (23 Jul 2010)

Hi Swan900,

IMO I'd plant a lot more plants than that and you could kick the BGA in the shins first by overdosing Flourish Excel  and doing 50% water changes every other day for a week or two. I'd still dose ferts though whilst doing this but more of them than you normally would just to make sure there is an excess in the tank all the time.

Some fast growers will help to start you off but not Vallis sp if you intend to dose Flourish Excel as you'll add to your problems if you do as the vallis will rot as it doesn't like the flourish Excel, which in turn may cause ammonia spikes.

 Limnophillia sessiflora commonly known as Ambulia, sagitaria subulata or any of the hygrophilia sp are all pretty intense growers which I have grown in the past and I'm sure there are others which I've yet to try. Any fast growing species will help to get you going initially and help to keep the algae at bay. You can always take them out later.

In my limited experience the crypts (which are quite slow growers) will take several months to get established and the worst thing you can do is disturb them during this period. They also don't in the main need a great deal of light (Crypt Parva excluded) so if you had some plants shadowing them it could prove beneficial initially. 

There's a lot more to planted tanks though than just the ferts and the dosing regime that you employ. To really succeed you need to get to grips with the other disciplines as well. Namely co2, light and flow (or more specifically co2 and fert distribution), as well as the individual needs of the specific plant species that you keep.  

Don't be afraid though the learning curve albeit steep isn't insurmountable and the rewards are well worth the effort.

Regards, Chris.


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## johnson529 (23 Jul 2010)

just a couple of quick questions on this! do you just use tap water here or do you use tap water with tapsafe already added to the dry ferts cause im be quite worried about chlorine and chloramine! also if I make up a big batch of the stuff how long will it last? I work away sometimes for 4 months at a time and would need to make up a batch for the missus before i went. thanks


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## chris1004 (23 Jul 2010)

Hi,

Personally I use RO water and mix up a months worth at a time. But I'm sure you could use tap water if you had to, I doubt you'd need to dechlorinate it though with such a relatively small quantity.

As I said before its as easy as making a cup of coffee. I'm sure if shown how  your misses is easily capable of doing it when required. But I don't think there's anything stopping you making large batches except the ability to react with the plants/tanks requirements. 

I'll be totally honest here and say that if I were to leave my planted tank alone for 4 months, fed but unattended, then I'd expect to come home to an overgrown mess.

I think if your looking for a low maintenance planted tank that you can leave alone for several months at a time then low tech is the way to go and definitely not EI.   

Regards, Chris.


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## johnson529 (23 Jul 2010)

thanks for the quick reply chris,

I've got a while until I go again but will happen soon. So in the time before I go I'll get her up to speed with dosing and pruning, dont you worry. (I hope)

I've checked my water in the area and it contains chlorine but not chloramine so i think I should get away with it as long as I leave it long enough before adding to the tank. But again I'll show her how to mix up a batch on a monthly basis so she knows for when I go.


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## Swan900 (23 Jul 2010)

Ok thanks for the help. I dont really want to plant anymore . Ive got injected C02 but it hasnt been on for 2 months now due to I dont want to turn it on without a Drop Checker, in which i dont have. Also if I dont want to plant anymore am I unable to use EI? Thanks!


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## CeeJay (23 Jul 2010)

Hi Swan900
If you don't want to plant anymore that's fine. The only thing is you will need a lot less ferts, especially as you are not running the CO2, so you certainly won't need EI levels of ferts.
So you use the same powders, just less of them.
If you're going to get your CO2 up and running anytime soon I would start with the dosage recommended on the first page. No dramas.
If you do not plan to have CO2 at all, you can reduce the amount of ferts gradually until you see a negative response from your plants, leaving about 3 weeks between each change. Without the CO2 your plants will still grow, but about 10x slower.
The only problem you may encounter is that you may have too much light for a no CO2 tank. 
You have just under 2 wpg. (63 litres = 16.6 US gallons and you have 30w of lighting).
Without the CO2 the plants will try to grow fast (because of the amount of light), but the plant itself will not be able to take up the nutrients quick enough without the CO2, therefore the plants cell structure will break down, the plants will suffer, and you will get algae for sure, caused by the ammonia leaching from the failing leaves. If you are not going to reinstate your CO2, then I would recommend lowering the lighting. You will therefore have slower growth rates so you will need a lot less ferts. 
That would then be considered a low tech tank. So no water changes. You'd need to dive over to the low tech section of the forum for more info.
The other alternative is to use liquid carbon, but apart from being a lot more expensive than the CO2 gas, there are known issues with this stuff.


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## Swan900 (23 Jul 2010)

Ahh brilliant mate thanks for the help! I was really scared you was going to say its a waste of time doing EI if your not going to plant more. I will get a couple more plants and I will get my C02 up and running but use the fish and plants as my indicators. I may in the meanwhile snap up some easy carbo. Will that rid of the BGA in the same way as Flourish Excell? Im really excited about delving into EI and to see the implications (hopefully posative) it has on my plants. Thanks again!


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## bigmatt (23 Jul 2010)

Treated tapwater should be fine.  Not sure about how long it lasts.  James Planted Tank (can't link to it form stupid work computer but google it and it'll come straight up) has some info in this i believe.
As far as your algae goes EI should help boot the BGA - raised nitrates are known to be toxic to BGA.  HA is commonly due to poor CO2 distribution so that's where you need to look.  
...and don't worry about nitrates being harmful to fish.  They arent.  Full stop.  End of story!
Hope this helps!
Matt


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## CeeJay (24 Jul 2010)

Hi Swan900
Glad we could help   


			
				Swan900 said:
			
		

> I may in the meanwhile snap up some easy carbo. Will that rid of the BGA in the same way as Flourish Excell?


The Easycarbo will not get rid of your BGA but upping your nitrates will, and you'll be doing that when you start dosing anyway   .
The Easycarbo will help in your battle with the hair algae though  . It will also be your source of Carbon until you get your CO2 gas going.


			
				Swan900 said:
			
		

> Im really excited about delving into EI and to see the implications (hopefully posative) it has on my plants.


It will only be positive   

Finally, there are many round here that use CO2 without a drop checker to keep as much equipment out of the tank as possible. My advice would be to start with a low bubble count but leave it running for 2-3 hours before making any upward adjustments and keep a close eye on your fish. If your fish become stressed and gasping for air at the surface you've overcooked it and need to turn it down a notch or two. You can't OD the plants on CO2 as they love the stuff so your fish are your best indicator. As you will be leaving 2-3 hours between adjustments you will only be able make 2, possibly 3 adjustments a day during your lighting period. Don't make the mistake of upping your CO2 and then going out for the day, that could end in tears and you could lose all your fish. It sometimes takes 2 or 3 days to get your CO2 up to acceptable levels if you are not using a drop checker, but it can be done.
Just for your info, when I started EI, I saw dramatic improvements in about 2 weeks   
Good luck and keep us posted.


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## Swan900 (24 Jul 2010)

I will definately keep every one posted and I can't thank you enough Chris for the help and the other UKAPS members. Well my ferts get here monday and can't wait to get them to use! I'll post the pics of the plants I get tomorrow. Thanks again mate! Swan


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## CeeJay (24 Jul 2010)

Hi Swan900


			
				Swan900 said:
			
		

> I will definately keep every one posted and I can't thank you enough Chris for the help and the other UKAPS members.


That's what makes UKAPS a cool place to be   .
I only have a meagre 14 months experience with this EI stuff, but what I do know is my plants haven't had a single deficiency in this time and I haven't got any algae issues to speak of (except a bit on some rocks which my shrimp like to munch).
There are many others around here with loads more experience than me willing to share their knowledge.
One that springs immediately to mind is Clive (aka ceg4048), who posted earlier in this thread. What he done for you, he done for me 14 months ago (calculations etc.) and he has done for many others too. I'm sure he must be fed up with doing that by now. He could sit back and relax and enjoy his tank and not bother because he's nailed this planted tank business. If you've read the EI tutorial you will have seen his tank, 'Full Metal Jacket' at the bottom of the post to see what I mean. Yet he still pops up (usually daily) and offers help and advice to inexperienced and experienced people alike.
A testament to someone with a passion for the planted tank. He doesn't need to bother, but I for one, am glad he does


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## chris1004 (24 Jul 2010)

bigmatt said:
			
		

> ...and don't worry about nitrates being harmful to fish.  They arent.  Full stop.  End of story!
> Hope this helps!
> Matt



Hi,

Sorry bigmatt I don't agree with this as a sweeping statement. Some fish species are known not to be tolerant of high nitrates, Rams, Discus and Angels spring straight to mind but I'm sure there are others.

However at least the nitrates that we dose don't come from the nitrogen cycle within the tank so the ammonia/nitrite stages are excluded which makes it better and the upper levels that can be tolerated are generally a lot higher than most common advice but are still surely species dependent.

Regards, Chris.


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## ceg4048 (24 Jul 2010)

The sensitivity of these and other species is not to the nitrate itself but in part due to the ammonia, which is highly toxic (approximately 6000X more toxic than NO3) and to the nitrate formation because in the Nitrogen Cycle the ammonia has to be oxidized, which robs the water column of Oxygen. Even at the intermediate stage, NH3->NO2, this  causes problems because NO2 is only slightly less toxic than NH3. So the fish suffer immediate NH3/NO2 toxicity and also suffer hypoxia simultaneously. This is what kills fish. High organic nitrate is only the smoking gun. Ammonia due to organic waste is the bullet.

The inorganic NO3 that you add, as mentioned by Chris does not rob the tank of Oxygen because the Nitrogen and Oxygen are already combined. That's why the species that we keep fish can tolerate very high doses of inorganic NO3. If we were keeping Salmon or trout then that would be a different story because they have shown a much higher sensitivity. I've kept Rams, Discus and Angels with high NO3 levels without any issues - but the tanks are kept scrupulously clean to remove the organic waste, which is the source of the trouble.

That's why people really need to re-think their water change policies. Do more water changes and your fish will live a lot longer.  This, really, is totally independent of your dosing philosophy. CO2 enriched high light tanks produce more than their fair share of organic waste. That's why more attention has to be paid to their cleanliness.

Cheers,


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## Swan900 (25 Jul 2010)

On the subject of mixing my NPK and Trace batches up, is it ok to use mineral water like Evian or just use tap? Thanks!


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## ceg4048 (25 Jul 2010)

Good grief, do you know how much Evian costs at Tesco? Nearly 40p per litre. If I buy Evian it's definitely going down my gullet. No way I'd use it for fert mix. You're already paying for tap water so may as well use that.

Cheers,


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## Swan900 (25 Jul 2010)

No I have a surplus of it. 'Off The Lorry' stuff if you catch my drift. Is it safe to use with fert mix? Thanks!


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## GHNelson (25 Jul 2010)

Swanny
Brilliant, you extracting the urine  
Evian its million of years old   Only jesting of course, yep you can use it.
You sure its not from Peckham Springs.......... Del boy will have something to say about that  
Regards
hoggie


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## Swan900 (25 Jul 2010)

Hahaha, Peckham Springs  It is basicly a modern day version of that all the bottle water cons. 

With my algae situation you say to overdose Flourish Excell. What do you mean by overdose? Twice the reccomended amount? Thanks!


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## chris1004 (26 Jul 2010)

Hi,

Yeah that should do it and more importantly lots and lots of large water changes, 50% or more every other day at least. Be careful not to give your fish thermal shock though, try to replicate the tank temp as near as you can with the replacement water.

Regards, Chris.


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## Swan900 (26 Jul 2010)

Thanks for the reply Chris. But an overdose of Flourish Excel twice my tanks reccomended dosage? Also when I do my daily dosing of ferts is it best to do it once the lights are turned on or does it matter when you add them? Thanks again for the help!


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## CeeJay (26 Jul 2010)

Hi Swan900
I have double dosed with Easycarbo before and not had any problems, just make sure you don't have any shrimp as they can't tolerate it as much as the fish. Also, there are a few plants that don't like it too, but not many.
With regards to when to dose. It doesn't seem to matter. Some do it at lights on, some do it when they feed their fish after lights on, I do it before I go to work (no lights on) and everyone, who has sorted their CO2 and distribution, seems to have healthy lush plant growth. So it doesn't really matter when you dose, you just have to get into a routine that suits you.
If you're in the habit of feeding your fish daily, why not do it then. Might be easier to remember   .


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## Swan900 (26 Jul 2010)

Thanks Chris. But will EasyCarbo erradicate my algae like Flourish Excel will? Thanks again! Swan


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## chris1004 (27 Jul 2010)

Hi Swan900

Flourish excel and easy carbo are pretty much the same thing and work in the same way, it doesn't seem to matter which one you use although as I understand it Flourish Excel is the original and easycarbo is a product which tries to replicate Flourish Excel.

Double dosing with either product is fine at least for the short term that you'll need to get the algae into check. If the fish start to flick and rub themselves on the hard scape immediately after you've introduced it then you've overdone it. Do a water change immediately and the problem will be resolved. That's the best advice I can give you if your worried about using it. And remember after about 24 hours its broken down anyway.

It doesn't matter what time you dose your ferts, most of us seem to do it before lights on in the morning because its convenient to do it before we leave for work in the morning. 

Truth of the matter is that the whole ethos of EI is to have unlimited nutrients available to the plants at *all times*, so if you're achieving this then why would it make a difference what time you topped it up?

Regards, Chris.


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## Swan900 (27 Jul 2010)

Brilliant. Cheers Chris for the help. I'll get some EasyCarbo tomorrow and start dosing a little over what is said to be on the safe side and increase gradually until I can see the algae take a bashing. I also got another plant as you suggested in previous posts and bought a nice specimen of Bacopa Moneri. If I find a nice fast growing stem plant I will get it to add to my tank and see the effects of E.I! Thanks again!


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## chris1004 (28 Jul 2010)

Hi,

Its a nice plant and have grown it myself but its not the sort of plant I was advising, it needs high lighting and it doesn't grow very big or very fast. What you need is something which will out compete the algae for the available nutrients, a large fast growing stem plant for instance, just until your other plants get established. Ambulia (Limnofilia sessiflora) fits the bill perfectly. When I grew this in my high tech EI dosed tank I was achieving on average about 10inches of new growth a week!!! That's why its often regarded as a weed. But its easy to propagate and replant so I just removed the whole plant and replanted fresh cuttings from it every few weeks. 

Regards, Chris.


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## ceg4048 (28 Jul 2010)

Plants do not compete with algae for nutrients any more than elephants compete with mice for food. If the water column is rich in nutrients all the time then that means algae have access to the same nutrients all the time. Algae are quicker, more efficient feeders, less complicated and have access to nutrients before any plant does. Nutrients must pass by algae before they cross the plant cell wall boundary, so this idea of competition is fantasy. It was invented by people who thought that nutrients cause algae. So if you adopt the principles of EI then this competition idea is a contradiction and should be terminated.

Also, Bacopa does not "need" high light. It needs high CO2. Here is Bacopa under duress from high light and low CO2;. This is under full tropical sunlight. Can you see the difference between the leaves out of water and those leaves under water? The submerged leaves are fried. Only when the stem exits the water and has access to CO2 can it make use of high light.





Cheers,


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## Swan900 (28 Jul 2010)

Ok thanks Ceg & Chris. So in based on the last post its pointless me adding more plants I dont want due to the algae can still access and use the suspended nutrients in the water. I see. I will still go and purchase and dose the EasyCarbo to get rid of it fully, but over the past couple of days its reduced alot so thats good news. My ferts are not here yet but I will start them on Sunday. And dont worry I have injected C02 for the Bacopa. Thanks again for the help!


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## Swan900 (29 Jul 2010)

Also in addition to my above post... Out of curiosity how long will an premade E.I fert batch last? Before it is inactive or goes off? Or does it go off? Thanks!


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## ceg4048 (29 Jul 2010)

I think you might be missing the point. Nutrients don't cause algae. Therefore it doesn't matter whether you have lots of plants or not in this sense. Plants don't compete with algae for nutrients. Having more plants is always better than having fewer plants - but not if you don't feed them. If you have lots of plants and don't feed them you'll get algae. If you only have a few plants and you don't feed them then you'll get algae. Algae doesn't care about the nutrients. Algae attack when your plants are sick. Failure to feed your plants properly, whether you have a lot of them or not, makes them sick. Have you ever seen advertisements of starving people in third world countries? Well they get sick easily right? They also look thin. Our bodies are unable to ward off disease and parasites when we are malnourished. Well, this is what happens when plants are starved. Algae is the parasite that the plants are unable to ward off when they are malnourished and sick.

That is the proper analogy you should have in mind when you see or think about algae, not whether this is competing with that, or whether excess will cause this or that. Feed you plants, give them adequate CO2, clean their environment by doing water changes, removing muck/filth and don't overstress them with too much light. These are the basic principles.

Nutrients have no defined shelf life. Just like there is no shelf life for the salt sitting on your table. They will last until you use them. Sometime the trace mixes get fungus or mould if the temperature is too warm. Put a cap full of Excel in the mix to prevent the mould and carry on.

Cheers,


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## chris1004 (29 Jul 2010)

Hi Clive /all

I never doubt your advice mate but I do have a quick question for you though with regard to the above.

Why then are we advised when setting up a planted tank to have at least 50% coverage. I always thought that it was so that the plants could out compete the algae for nutrients but I do follow your logic and excess ferts  is indeed excess ferts after all so the original argument is obviously flawed but we're still advised to plant heavily from the outset.

The label that came with my Bacopa when I bought it stated that it needed high lighting that was what I was basing my advise on but I will bow to your superior knowledge, after all you've pretty much taught me most of what I know.  

Regards, Chris.


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## ceg4048 (29 Jul 2010)

Hi Chris,
          The whole "plant competing with algae" myth was invented simply because the real issue of why high plant biomass is important is very complicated, so I suspect it was easier to just issue forth this broad statement to perhaps be a proxy argument for the true explanation. The answer of why high plant biomass is important involves the symbiosis and interaction between plants and other organisms which share their environment. One could argue that it is the other organisms that do the competing and that plants help by stacking the deck in favour of these other organisms.

Study the image below for a while, and keep it in mind while studying the following link.
Check out page 2 of this thread mate => 27 litre scape - "Bearing new fruit"

Also have a look at this one => viewtopic.php?f=27&t=6738





So you see it's really a quite complicated issue and it's easy to just try to sum everything up with simple statements, but these statements don't do justice to the truth.

Hope this helps.   

Cheers,


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## chris1004 (29 Jul 2010)

Oh mate your just the best buddy any planted tank enthusiast could wish for...

Another Clive information bombshell to digest. You gotta love em.

I understood that explanation in the link provided perfectly thanks again for taking the time to help me and others like me truly understand this hobby.

I'll be honest I'm leaning towards taking the red pill, but am a little afraid that the hole may get a lot deeper than my capability to understand.    

Regards, Chris.


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## Swan900 (29 Jul 2010)

I remember doing something similar not so long ago in A Level Biology. Good info though Ceg so thanks! Ive got better pictures of my tank now with my mediocre digital camera. Theres a little of BGA on the substrate but hopefully that will go with E.I as its already on its way out. I cant really think of a place to put a fast grower with my current scape   Any ideas where to add one? But im sure it will be fine for E.I as it is and with my CO2 if not. Thanks!


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## ceg4048 (29 Jul 2010)

chris1004 said:
			
		

> .I'll be honest I'm leaning towards taking the red pill, but am a little afraid that the hole may get a lot deeper than my capability to understand.


That's what Alice said on her way to Wonderland...I think that also what Dorothy said on her way to Oz...Buckle your seat belt Dorothy, 'cause Kansas...is goin' bye bye...   



			
				Swan900 said:
			
		

> I cant really think of a place to put a fast grower with my current scape  Any ideas where to add one? But im sure it will be fine for E.I as it is and with my CO2 if not. Thanks!


Seems to me you can put something like an easy Ludwigia or Hygrophilla in any of the corners.

The BGA is an issue of either low NO3, or low flow, or inadequate filter maintenance as you might have discovered by now.

Cheers,


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