# Should I fishless cycle a new planted tank?



## aaron.c

Hey All

I was going to approach my new tank with the same approach I have always used... a fishless cycle and then stick most of the bioload in the tank in one hit.

Now, as I wait until I can set up my new tank I have been reading lots and lots online (sometimes a mistake I think) and there seems to be another school of thought.  The silent cycle gang.

They say do away with cycles, whack a whole load of plants into your tank, fast growing stems with at least 75% substrate coverage and start adding fish more or less straight away.

Now I have read hundreds of forum posts about this, some new, some old, etc etc.

But I wanted to come to you guys for your advice

How do you cycle your new planted tanks? If you do a planted fishless cycle are you plagued by algae?

Any help is greatly appreciated.  Now just over a week untit I can start assembling my tank 

Aaron


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## BigTom

I've never done a fishless cycle. Instead of spending weeks pouring noxious chemicals into your (sad, barren-looking) tank, you can spend the same time establishing a healthy biomass of happy, beautiful, growing plants which will then look after your fish.

I would advise against stocking fish heavily from the outset, in case you have issues with the plants or they take a while to acclimatise. Once the plants are flourishing, then build up your fish stock. If you need to stock from day 1, then try and include some very fast growing stems and floaters, at least for the initial period.


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## aaron.c

Thanks Tom

I am in no rush to stock.  I would be quite happy to spend the 4-5 weeks doing a fishless cycle before stocking anything.  So I don't mind waiting just as long for plants to establish before stocking.

I place getting the plants right, and tank algae free, above stocking fish.

I have some filter media sitting in a friends filter, but I am guessing this is going to be off little use in the tank without a food source?  I might add these on the day I add the first batch of fish as a little boost to the filter system.

Aaron


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## BigTom

Sounds like a good plan. Can't see any harm in adding filter bacteria at either point in setting up really, whether it'll make any real difference I couldn't say.


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## The Doctor's Companion

I'd add shrimps right away, tho. Cherries are pretty hardy and will help the balance in the tank and keep any algae growth down.


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## stu_

If it were me and i was taking the cautious approach.
Get the tank planted up,lots of quick stems eg. Limnophila Sessiflora.Daily water changes for the first couple of weeks.
Hopefully after the inital settling in and new growth has started, bang in the mature media you mention, add a small shoal of fish.
Keep the up the waterchanges for the week, and observe.
Do you know what tank & fish?


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## Troglodyte

I am probably at risk of upsetting a few with my response but in general, I agree with the getting your plants in and the environment settled put the mature filter media in the same day. Ammonia is created by all sorts of bacteria and the breakdown of the plants, so the filter media will process this. Check water parameters before buying fish and if within the required fish's environment requirements, add fish in low numbers, repeat water checks and only add if the water parameters allow.  If fish kept to a minimum number you will not even register ammonia/nitrite. I personally have not used shrimps in any new environment set up, so cannot comment on their suitability.
Big Tom just for your information the adding of mature filter media to a new setup (with prepared water) has proven to be the quickest way of cycling a tank before adding livestock to a new aquarium without adverse affect of livestock. Testing carried out by Sparsholt students.


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## foxfish

I would say it depends on how experience and confident you are with growing plants!
Assuming we are talking about a Co2 injected high tech tank..... then If you have little experience with such a set up the last thing you want are fish or shrimps in your tank!
Adjusting & playing around with Co2 levels is not recommended with anything other than plants in the tank.
On the other hand if you are confident about all the factors required to grow algae free plants then yes you can add fish although personally I would not do so myself for at least four weeks.


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## Troglodyte

Foxfish well caught, I was actually replying as a low tech solution.


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## Henry

Good call Foxfish. Get the plants right and you'll have a healthy environment for your plants.

After reading about various instances of fishless cycles inducing weird algaes and stuff, I'd be inclined to just put in some floating plants and a couple of hardy fish.


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## lurch1000

I find "Hardy fish" an objectionable term. While some fish have wider tolerances than others, none should be subjected to any exceptional parameters. If you can't give the fish the water and care it needs, don't buy it.

Silent cycles can work. As suggested, get the tank established as a planted tank, plenty of plant mass, plenty of fast growing plants. Choose the fish, avoiding the super senitive soecies. and add slowly, and watch for ammonia and nitrite like a hawk, daily water changes may be necessary, if not recommended. Don't let the ammonia or nitrite get to a detectable level. A mature media donation would be a great start, but only add it when you're ready for fish or it may not be useful if left fallow too long.

It would be interesting to see how you go with this, and maybe keep this thread updated with the progress, if only for the purposes of the cycling data.


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## Henry

I probably should have been more specific when I said "hardy fish". I don't agree with simply dumping fish in an immature environment, but there are some that are more tolerant than others of less than ideal conditions. You mention "avoiding the super sensitive species"; this is what I'm referring to. There are fish that can withstand the odd mistake or lapse, and these are the sort of fish that will happily be put in an immature tank with ample plant density.

I'd never jeopardise the wellbeing of any livestock, but guppies and barbs are a lot less fussy about their water than Apistogrammas and such.

Maybe I should choose my words more carefully in the future.


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## lurch1000

Sorry Henry, I was a bit OTT on over-emphasising a point for anyone who might mis-read it.


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## Ian Holdich

Guppies are not the fish they used to be when it comes to a fish in cycle, they are one of the weakest fish on the market now. 

I have to agree with foxfish, there's no point in spending shed loads on plants for it to fail on that side. What others do is to do you layout and plant as you would, then add some floating or bunches of elodea or other fast growing stems for the first couple of weeks to use any nasties up in the water.


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## BigTom

Troglodyte said:


> Big Tom just for your information the adding of mature filter media to a new setup (with prepared water) has proven to be the quickest way of cycling a tank before adding livestock to a new aquarium without adverse affect of livestock. Testing carried out by Sparsholt students.


 
Hi Trog. Yes, no problems at all with aiding/avoiding cycling all together by adding appropriately seeded mature filter media, just hard to know how much of that bacteria/archaea will still be there if adding it long before the livestock go in. Too many factors to get my poor addled brain around.


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## weasel

Ive just fishless cycled my tank with no plants,i took some japenese matting out of my well established koi filter,shook it in the tank and left it in,then i just added 0.5ml household ammonia per day till i got a nitrite spike then a waterchange of 70%,then waited till got no readings,then a waterchange then added fish, took 19 days to cycle,i believe if you add the plants then they steal the ammonia which is needed for the bacteria in the filter,worked for me..not had any readings of N03/4 or N02 since ..


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## Troglodyte

Hi Big Tom, Yes I understand what you are saying, however it is not only fish that produce ammonia as you know, so the archaea/bacteria normally die back and adapt to the new environment factors and consume the ammonia created by other bacteria and plant breakdown at this kind of level, in a low tech environment, without too many issues.Especially as we are only talking 0.02mg/l. If there is not enough ammonia to consume, they can go into a state of suspension until there is, for a good period of time before decaying. Even when they decay they provide food for others. However your points are accepted that there are a lot of factors to consider.
I also agree that you can wait the 6-8 weeks for this to occur naturally.


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## Andy Thurston

Ive just done mine about a month ago. 40l low tech added a few plants and mature media on setup. 3 days later i added 5 ember tetras and removed old media and did a 30% wc. A week later i added 3 corys and 4 armano shrimp
ammonia/nitrite undetectable nitrate steadily increased from start, water tested daily
I think climbing nitrate came from old media as rising nitrate stopped when old media was removed
My algae was caused by too much light and not enough co2
Now i change 30% of water weekly. No problems yet
People cycle tanks in many ways but this is how i did this tank and i do all my tanks like this


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## dw1305

Hi all, 
Every time I read "cycle" and or "add ammonia" I feel a combination of sadness, incomprehension and incredulity.
If you know that biological filtration systems with healthy growing plants are an order of magnitude more efficient than microbial alone systems, and ammonia is highly toxic chemical, cycling becomes a non-starter for a planted tank.

Have a look at this one: <Best Way To Start A Planted Tank? | UK Aquatic Plant Society>.

cheers Darrel


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## lurch1000

I fully understand your point Darrel, but I'm not against a "test" of the tank's capabilities with some aqueous ammonia. I've never fully cycled a tank by any suggested means, ammonia, silent etc, I've always cloned or upgraded or managed to pinch sensible portions of media, although I have test cycled media in containers to satisfy some curiosities and for a little research. The main mantra and point to emphasise, IMO, is to ensure that any fish added are NEVER exposed to ammonia or nitrite.


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## sciencefiction

The only downside with a silent cycle in my opinion is that you can be unlucky enough like me to start with plants that are half dead from transport and were probably grown emmersed prior. You'll be waiting ages to get them established and possibly get covered in algae while doing so.  
Other than that I agree that one should spend the time getting the plants to grow, then the rest will resolve itself and for that amount of time the filter will get some bacteria established too from melting plants, bacteria, possibly substrate/soil leaching ammonia etc..If a person is good at growing plants, then it's a nice way to start a tank and probably more pleasurable too compared to a fishless cycle.

But I've done many fishless cycles with ammonia and it works, 3 weeks on average, simples.  If one has no lights during that period there's no algae but I've done it with plants and ligtht too a few times ( even slow growers too), adding ammonia daily, and never got the "weird algae" some people mention. All I got was minor diatoms sometimes that the fish ate as soon as they were put in afterwards.  I kept one of these tanks documented and have pictures pre-cycle and after cycling with ammonia, mostly an anubias tank.  The tank didn't get any sort of algae for the initial 10 months after setup but then I messed up with other stuff so triggered some algae at some stage which I doubt it was due to me adding ammonia 10 months beforehand   So I wouldn't condemn this method so easily. Ammonia is toxic, but in a fishless cycle dosed to proper amounts it has no side effects.  It is as good as any other method of cycling a tank and once done, your tank is ready for fish regardless of whether the plants melt or not because the amount of bacteria that gets established via ammonia dosing is normally a lot more than the tank inhabitants/melting plants/decomposition, etc,.. will produce, making it qute safe for inhabitans even if one isn't such a good gardener. 

And I don't agree with using "hardy" fish for any cycle. They'd suffer as much as any other species and who wants fish on the verge of getting diseased? "Hardy" fish may survive the worst, but their weakened immune system won't work well for ages, may get easily infected by a common pathogen and your journey with fish will be rough and unpleasant. It can take many months getting tank stock back to a healthy condition. It may require medication which will totally destroy the biological balance of the tank, etc...

So it's one's choice what to do as long as they know what they are capable of and how much time they have on hand.


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## foxfish

What about the dry start method?


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## sciencefiction

Here are some pictures of one of my tanks that was planted, then cycled with ammonia for about 3 weeks. It was planted with anubias mainly, so not even the best plants to establish a planted tank with considering they are slow growers and get infested with algae easily.


The pictures below show exactly the same side of the tank. The first picture is just after planting and filling before cycling with ammonia.






The cycle finished. I added fish. The corys decided to spawn and I was taking a picture of the eggs deposited on the intakes but you can see the state of the same plant.






And a close up video on which you can see the same plant from a close view 10 months later, still no algae in the tank or any dead or sick fish for that matter and still going strong after a year and a half. The corys loved(still love) spawning in that corner but they seem to be colour blind as you can see on the video


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## lurch1000

foxfish said:


> What about the dry start method?


Can't say I'm familiar with that one. Shall have to get Googling tomorrow!


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## foxfish

The dry start method is when the tank is set up & cycled with substrate, hard scape & plants but no water - so obviously no fish either but also no algae!
I can hardly believe some guys actually add household ammonia to there tanks


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## foxfish

I cant seem to be able to edit my last post for spelling & add there is water but, only enough to cover the substrate!


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## weasel

foxfish said:


> The dry start method is when the tank is set up & cycled with substrate, hard scape & plants but no water - so obviously no fish either but also no algae!
> I can hardly believe some guys actually add household ammonia to there tanks


 
 Nothing wrong with household ammonia as long as its pure with no additives, i use jeyes..


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## Ady34

lurch1000 said:


> Can't say I'm familiar with that one. Shall have to get Googling tomorrow!


Just use the forum search function  Theres loads of info right here, check out this:
Lots of Dry Start Method questions! | UK Aquatic Plant Society



foxfish said:


> I cant seem to be able to edit my last post


Hi Foxfish,
you only get 15mins to edit.

cheerio,
Ady.


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## Andy Thurston

Putting plants in, adding mature media or even adding ammonia are all just methods to start the tank processing its own ammonia. Some walstad tanks are filtered by the plants and substrate alone and fish arnt added till later, when its safe to do so. Some people like fish in to help with algae till the tanks more mature
I wouldnt condemn an method of cycling aslong as livestock are not exposed to unaceptable water quality. People have different personal preferences and tanks have different requirments
Do what suits you and your tanks requirements


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## lurch1000

Thanks Ady, currently on Tapatalk on an iPod. Searching anything anywhere drives me up the wall!


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## Kogre

foxfish said:


> Adjusting & playing around with Co2 levels is not recommended with anything other than plants in the tank.



My next tank is going to be my first high tech and I'll not be cycling it with fish for the reasons Mr. Foxfish said above. Take your time and get the environment right before adding fish. You'll be glad you did.


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## mark4785

If OP is intending to add sensitive fish to the aquarium I would definitely recommend he perform a fishless cycle before adding plants. In my opinion, you could only get away with adding fish to a non-cycled planted aquarium if the the aquarium was filled with plants that uptake nitrogen compounds very quickly, the owner of the aquarium is able to confidently grow plants without any die back, the tank is slightly stocked with hardy species of fish and these fish are not over-fed.

The trouble with having no nitrifying bacteria is when you decide to remove plants (for whatever reason) the fish will suffer and/or die which is a completely unavoidable outcome if a simple fishless cycle was completed initially.


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## BigTom

mark4785 said:


> If OP is intending to add sensitive fish to the aquarium I would definitely recommend he perform a fishless cycle before adding plants. In my opinion, you could only get away with adding fish to a non-cycled planted aquarium if the the aquarium was filled with plants that uptake nitrogen compounds very quickly, the owner of the aquarium is able to confidently grow plants without any die back, the tank is slightly stocked with hardy species of fish and these fish are not over-fed.
> 
> The trouble with having no nitrifying bacteria is when you decide to remove plants (for whatever reason) the fish will suffer and/or die which is a completely unavoidable outcome if a simple fishless cycle was completed initially.


 
This makes no sense whatsoever but I decided a while ago that it isn't worth entering into debate with Mark, so I'll simply recommend to the OP that he takes this particular piece of advice with a pinch of salt and makes his own mind up with the information he's been provided with in this thread and in the many others on the topic.


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## mark4785

BigTom said:


> This makes no sense whatsoever but I decided a while ago that it isn't worth entering into debate with Mark, so I'll simply recommend to the OP that he takes this particular piece of advice with a pinch of salt and makes his own mind up with the information he's been provided with in this thread and in the many others on the topic.


 
I would recommend that the OP takes your advice, BigTom, and my advice, along with any pieces of information provided within this thread, with the same degree of gravity otherwise you risk sounding arrogant and insultive insinuating that your own views hold more weight.


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## sciencefiction

I obviously am a supporter of fishless cycling having done it many times.
There's a point in having cycled filters one way or another even for a planted tank as you'll have less headaches with initial algae outbreaks when there's already bacteria in the filters to deal with the ammonia spikes.
And your substrate will establish beneficial bacteria way faster too, for the plants to grow properly.

I just don't see why is a planted tank made look like such a magical way of cycling a tank when in fact there's no much difference than a fish-in cycle, besides the plants helping with the ammonia too making it finish faster but you won't escape the initial major water changes.
And from what I gather, it's still advised to wait a few week in a planted tank before stocking it, so it isn't any different than what one would do in a fishless cycle, with that difference that in a fishless cycle you know exactly when it's done and how many fish you can stock with.

And for those that keep coming up with ammonia being toxic and not supposed to be added to tanks, then stop adding soil that leaches ammonia too, as it's exactly the same stuff. It's a bit hypocritical in my opinion. We shouldn't even add fish or fish food with that logic.

I am simple and like caclulated things. I know if I fishlessly cycle the filters I can go out, get all the fish I intend to put in the tank, to the largest pleco or arowana if I like as I know exactly what ammonia levels I've cycled the tank with. Then put them all in the tank without having to quarantine small batches of fish every few weeks, and not worry about getting accidental enviromental disease outbreaks that normally get blamed on the retailer selling you sick fish.


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## dw1305

Hi all,


sciencefiction said:


> I just don't see why is a planted tank made look like such a magical way of cycling a tank when in fact there's no much difference than a fish-in cycle, besides the plants helping with the ammonia too making it finish faster but you won't escape the initial major water changes. And from what I gather, it's still advised to wait a few week in a planted tank before stocking it, so it isn't any different than what one would do in a fishless cycle, with that difference that in a fishless cycle you know exactly when it's done and how many fish you can stock with.





sciencefiction said:


> And for those that keep coming up with ammonia being toxic and not supposed to be added to tanks, then stop adding soil that leaches ammonia too, as it's exactly the same stuff. It's a bit hypocritical in my opinion. We shouldn't even add fish or fish food with that logic. I am simple and like caclulated things. I know if I fishlessly cycle the filters I can go out, get all the fish I intend to put in the tank, to the largest pleco or arowana if I like as I know exactly what ammonia levels I've cycled the tank with. Then put them all in the tank without having to quarantine small batches of fish every few weeks, and not worry about getting accidental enviromental disease outbreaks that normally get blamed on the retailer selling you sick fish.


It is "horses for courses", every one is entitled to their opinion, and in the end it is a matter of personal choice how any-one manages their fish tanks. The first point is that I'd agree limiting and reducing the amount of ammonia in the system is the most important single factor in biological filtration, and it certainly the approach that I use, but

You can't measure levels of NH3(NH4+), NO2- or NO3- accurately with any of the kits available to us, it is difficult even with dedicated lab equipment. That is why measurement of pollution in relatively clean waters is done using a combination of Biotic Index and 5 day BOD test. After you've added a known volume of NH3, it is very difficult to find out what amount remains.
NH3 is a biocide and extremely toxic to all organisms. There is a huge difference between the normal biological processes that produce ammonia, and adding a large dose of it.
Biological filtration systems combining growing plants and microbial systems are about an order of magnitude more efficient than microbial systems on there own, they are also a lot more resilient, partially because of the oxygen production by the plants. An establishment period is just "belt and braces". Have a look at this paper *Aquatic phytoremediation: novel insights in tropical and subtropical regions*> <http://195.37.231.82/publications/pac/pdf/2010/pdf/8201x0027.pdf>
For me it honestly is a no-brainer, you only have to search through forums and you get "why has my cycle stalled?", "cycled my tank but my fish died" etc. and this one from UKAPS <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/cycling-a-planted-tank.23546/>

If you approached a non-fish keeping scientist interested in fresh-water pollution and talked about "the fishless cycle" and adding ammonia, they would be both confused and incredulous.

cheers Darrel


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## sciencefiction

From what I've read, there are different types of nitrifying bacteria that establish in tanks and it varies from tank to tank. Some of them require high levels of ammonia/nitrIte to function, some require low amounts and high amounts are toxic to them. You don't really know which ones will thrive in your particular system.

 The accepted maximum norm non-toxic norm is 4-5ppm, hence these are the maximum levels used to fishlessly cycle a tank but there are arguments that lower is better and faster. In the early days fishless cycle was misunderstood and people dumped very high amounts of ammonia thinking it's better, or they just miscaclulated.

There are a few ways to stall a fishless cycle and that's when you let the nitrIte go out of hand, over 5ppm on the chart as that's toxic amounts. The nitrIte can rise to hundreds of ppm before nitrite bacteria starts getting established as the ammonia bacs really start doing their job faster, for me after 3-4 days the levels start going down daily.  The amounts of ammonia converted acidifies the water to a point where soft water will loose it's buffer capacity. The Ph can then crash and those same scientist say that in ph lower than 6.5 the nitrification slows down. At ph of 6 the normal aquarium nitrifying bacteria is inhibited. Also at lower Ph the ammonia is mostly in it's ammonium form, but it's the NH4 form of ammonia that we are trying to grow bacteria in the filters for. The accepted norm is to use baking soda during fishless cycle to keep the Ph high and the ammonia in NH4 form in order not to stall the cycle one way or another, not have more than 4-5 ppm ammonia at any given time and not let the nitrItes go beyond measurable.
I know you say it's impossible to test the exact levels, but home liquid test kits are enough to give you a general idea where you are at. It doesn't need to be exact science because once you find out that ammonia and nitrIte go down regularly and often, you just dump all the water out, refill the tank with safe dechlorinated temperature matched water and you are ready to put fish.
The argument about not having enough oxygen to do a fishless cycle with 4-5ppm of ammonia is unfounded because it's been done numerous times with those levels, with no plants to help the oxygen levels and the normal surface aggitation works just fine for that.

As for threads where someone's fish died, that's when they just dump fish in totally uncycled tanks and is irrelevant to the method.
One can find plenty of threads where inexperienced plant keepers have had sick fish while trying to do a silent plant cycle, whether because their plants don't grow fast enough, get infested by algae and plants melt or just missed a very important point in setting it up, but it's far from a bullet proof method, same as any other.

Personally, I've fishlessly cycled tanks using ammonia while plants were already in the tank and there was no detrimental effect on the plants or the fish once the tank was cycled. These have been setup for months and years and I haven't had an initial disease outbreak or any negative effect from doing it that way.

And the last tank had fishlessly cycled filters, then 4 weeks ago I added the mineralized soil and planted the tank and then less than two weeks ago fish were added and have been living happily already for 2 weeks so far. At the moment this 100G tank holds 20 corys, 9 platies and 1 guppy and the ammonia/nitrIte are 0. There's no algae besides very little diatoms here and there that appeared only in the last week and this is probably due to the sudden increase of bioload and will recede as it usually does.  I would have added the fish sooner if my plants didn't melt like crazy initially and I didn't want to be disturbing soil while there's fish in the tank.
And I would have fishlessly cycled the tank with the filters substrate and plants already in it as usual if I had mineralized the soil on time and I had my lights which I hadn't received yet.


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## dw1305

Hi all,
Last one from me. 





sciencefiction said:


> There are a few ways to stall a fishless cycle and that's when you let the nitrIte go out of hand, over 5ppm on the chart as that's toxic amounts. The nitrIte can rise to hundreds of ppm before nitrite bacteria starts getting established as the ammonia bacs really start doing their job faster, for me after 3-4 days the levels start going down daily.


But surely the whole point is that you never need to get high levels of nitrite, high levels of NO2- are just the smoking gun from the ammonia addition. 


> The amounts of ammonia converted acidifies the water to a point where soft water will loose it's buffer capacity. The Ph can then crash and those same scientist say that in ph lower than 6.5 the nitrification slows down. At ph of 6 the normal aquarium nitrifying bacteria is inhibited.


 This really isn't true,  microbial systems are much more fluid and complex than this. 


sciencefiction said:


> Also at lower Ph the ammonia is mostly in it's ammonium form, but it's the NH4 form of ammonia that we are trying to grow bacteria in the filters for. The accepted norm is to use baking soda during fishless cycle to keep the Ph high and the ammonia in NH4 form in order not to stall the cycle one way or another, not have more than 4-5 ppm ammonia at any given time and not let the nitrItes go beyond measurable.


Free ammonia (NH3 gas) is very difficult to measure, but NH4+ (the ammonium ion) is slightly less problematic and is what the tests measure by acidifying the solution and measuring TAN. The problem comes that NH3/NH4+ are in a pH mediated equilibrium.



 
Also people will tell you that NH4+ isn't toxic, but that isn't actually true. It is still toxic but usually sub-lethal. You do need a source of carbonates, but adding large amounts of baking soda etc is likely to be self-defeating. If you don't add the ammonia in the first case you don't need to add sodium (bi)carbonate, or worry about pH, NO2- or the NH3/NH4+ equilibrium. 


sciencefiction said:


> The argument about not having enough oxygen to do a fishless cycle with 4-5ppm of ammonia is unfounded because it's been done numerous times with those levels, with no plants to help the oxygen levels and the normal surface aggitation works just fine for that.


I can tell you unequivocally that oxygen is a limiting factor in nearly all polluted systems, unfortunately dissolved oxygen is even more difficult to measure than ammonia, but systems high in ammonia inevitably have huge BOD values.


sciencefiction said:


> One can find plenty of threads where inexperienced plant keepers have had sick fish while trying to do a silent plant cycle, whether because their plants don't grow fast enough, get infested by algae and plants melt or just missed a very important point in setting it up, but it's far from a bullet proof method, same as any other.


Algae performs the same role as higher plants, just not as efficiently. I'd always recommend a floating plant in a newly set up tank, partially to get around "problems" of submerged algae, and also because they have access to aerial CO2 levels. A floating plant like Amazon Frogbit (_Limnobium laevigatum_) is a very good indicator of nutrient levels, which is why I use it for the "Duckweed Index".   

Have a look at this one: <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/dosing-for-a-barr-non-co2-method-tank.18073/>

cheers Darrel


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## sciencefiction

I meant NH3, not NH4 when referring to ammonia at high Ph levels above. Just typed it without thinking.
You are right that oxygen is a limiting factor, but facts point that you get enough via surface agitation to at least cycle a tank fishlessly. Now if you are overrun with rotting debris, plants, decomposing stuff in the soil,plants not growing and left to melt in the tank and lack of surface movement, then it's another story.



> This really isn't true, microbial systems are much more fluid and complex than this.


 
I am not claiming that's the only acidifying process or it's simple. But is it not true that ammonia to nitrIte conversion is an acidifying process because from what I can recall from chemistry it is? And have you done a fishless cycle with ammonia measuring what happens to the water via Kh, Ph test the least? There are plenty of examples of crashed Ph when doing a fishless cycle. My Kh went from 8 to 4 in no time but that is enough to buffer my Ph without backing soda for the entire process. However, if you start with a Kh of 4 or less, then just wait and it will crash. It will happen in a planted tank with soft water, but people either don't notice because they are injecting CO2 and the Ph is supposed to go down anyway, and the plants help with the ammonium, so the nitrifying bacteria getting inhibited isn't detrimental to the system but there will be a rise in ammonia when that happens.

A floating plant will help stabilize the system or any fast growing plants if they grow fast, but they won't cycle your tank and won't be enough for a heavy bioload.


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## roadmaster

Don't really see the advantage to stocking heavily from the outset.
Could just as easily wind up with a tank full of sick fish unless quarantine is used. Is same for any method.
Have used fish in method, (can be done with no harm to fishes) Fishless method ,(no quicker in my expieriences) Prawn,fish food method (no harm to fauna),and silent cycling with plant's. (most folk's won't begin with enough plant's or research on growing).
Would hand's down choose silent cycling with plant's (way less trouble,no daily testing,dosing,pH adjusting.etc.)


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## lurch1000

Not sure that a decaying prawn producing ammonia has a significantly different net effect than adding bottled ammonia/um.

As for wanting to chuck a load of fish in at once, I believe the idea came from Chris Cow to immediately stock African Cichlids.

Darrel is correct, our tanks will never see the heady heights of ammonia (and nitrite) that we add to our ranks to fishlessly cycle them. In the ideal world we'd know the typical amount of ammonia excreted from a full stock of fish, whatever full stocking means, and would drip ammonia in at a trace level over the day up to the amount needed to sustain the intended bioload. In practice, that's impossible and impractical, so we dose the 2ppm or whatever. I'd personally be inclined to dose low and often where practicable.

Whatever we do to cycle with ammonia, bicarbonate, water changes etc, we reset the water at the end hopefully via a few water changes, and check the oxidisation process after each water change to ensure the munchers were happy with the change in parameters.

All said and done, there are many ways to skin a cat. Personally I'll back anything that ensures that eliminates the risk of fish being unnecessarily exposed to toxins, and I see no reason that anybody should disagree with that statement. So cycle away using any method suggested, as long as you can ensure that the livestock don't suffer.


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## weasel

I see it like this, if your having a planted  tank then let the plants do the work, no point adding ammonia.. If you want fish and plants then theres no harm in a fishless cycle,It really depends on what fish and size of fish going in,if its a few barbs and tetras then the little ammonia produced would make no odds but you put a few big cichlids in then that's a different story, A fishless cycle would make all the difference....personally ive always had good results with the fishless cycle, never had a crash in pH, just don't go mad with ammonia, but to try and cycle a tank with something dead like a prawn is just crazy..


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## roadmaster

Nothing crazy about using Prawn,fish food ,(no fishes) to help establish biological filter if one undestand's what the bacterial colony we srtive to establish feed's on.
A small cocktail shrimp (1) ,per 20 gal in mesh net ,with small stone to hold it down.(toss it in the tank)
Wait four week's, and test for ammonia,nitrites ,nitrates. Usually not much left of the prawn and 60%  water change knock's back usually significant nitrates.
Have used this method for class room project's on as many as a dozen tank's at a time.
Down side is the tank(s) can get a bit stinky but water changes don't really slow the process to any degree,and it ain't too bad with just one tank.(opinion'ds vary).
Is no different than the ammonia method of fishless cycling and effective so long as you don't get all ignorant with too many,or too large of prawn ,nor ignorant with regard's to stocking.
Student's used the time to research fishes they were planning on stocking.


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## mark4785

weasel said:


> I see it like this, if your having a planted tank then let the plants do the work, no point adding ammonia.. If you want fish and plants then theres no harm in a fishless cycle,It really depends on what fish and size of fish going in,if its a few barbs and tetras then the little ammonia produced would make no odds but you put a few big cichlids in then that's a different story, A fishless cycle would make all the difference....personally ive always had good results with the fishless cycle, never had a crash in pH, just don't go mad with ammonia, but to try and cycle a tank with something dead like a prawn is just crazy..


 
I agree that adding a prawn or anything that decays slowly is not ideal because of the stench it would produce and the potential mess that it could create in the filter. Additionally, the end result is to have ammonia be processed into nitrite and then in turn have that nitrite be processed into nitrate; from my own experience it can take 1-3 weeks for pure ammonia to be processed by nitrosomonas bacteria into nitrite so why would you want to add a slowly decaying object into the water which will take additional time for ammonia to be oxidised from it. It would be better just to get straight to the point by adding bottled pure ammonia.

As Lurch has said above, pure ammonia is irritant and toxic to fish but this chemical is completely removed prior to fish and/or plant addition after the fishless cycle can be continually realised.


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## sciencefiction

I personally wouldn't want a rotting prawn in my tank for the same reasons, also attracting the wrong bacteria and fungi too, same for using food. Pure ammonia is best in my opinion, and you get the right ppm desired. Also dosing lower ammounts of ammonia, but more often is probably a better option. I just make sure there's a bit at all times but never too high, besides the first dose.  The ammonia really starts getting processed fairly fast, it's the nitrItes that stick around for longer in my experience. Once they both start getting processed, I increase the dose gradually if I am going to fully stock the tank at once, or at least add a large group of fish.


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## weasel

Thats how i see dead stuff in the tank,all sorts of parasites and bad bacteria thrive on the dead..1ml  of 9% ammonia  in my 140 gave me 1ppm ish ammonia soon as this reduces to almost  0 then i'll use 0.5 ml to keep it at 0.5ppm all the time i.ll be trickling 4 litre of fresh water going in per day to keep it buffering.soon as i get a nitrite spike the waters emptied and refilled.0.5ml is still used till i get 0 reading on nitrites..once its zero then waters emptied and fresh water goes in..0.5 ammonia is introduced, if its gone in 12 hours then fish go in..my filter has 20lpm air pump running on it..my tank cycled in 19 days..


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## roadmaster

The Prawn rot's slowly (just like fish poo,fish food, daily ,) ,which in turn gradually feed's larger and larger bacteria population.(Tank mature's slowly which is good thing)
Is no different bacterial reaction than would occur when dead fish goes undetected behind mass of plant's,wood,rock.
Same bacteria feed on the decaying Prawn that slowly produces ammonia,which in turn feed's the nitrifying bacteria.
No water changes usually needed,no dosing,testing,buffering the pH,etc,etc,.
Is about as simple as it get's.(children can do it)
I never much cared for the term "cycled" for it implies that at some point the process is complete ,when in fact the bacterial colony ebb's,and waynes,with the dynamic's of the tank (ie) metabolic input,fish load,feeding's,maint or lack thereof.
If one were to look at sample of their aquarium water under a microscope,,they would no doubt see all kind's of different bacteria ,and or microscopic critter's, that thrive in established,mature, aquarium's.
A colony of one type of bacteria does not make for a mature tank in my view (opinion's vary),any more than a stand of tree's in a field makes a forrest.
One must also look to the ground around the tree's at the leaf litter,mosses, insect's and insect larvae that feed on the  leaf litter,bird dropping's,animal waste that further inhances the composting going on naturally, and the benefit to the soil which in turn fuel's more growth for tree's,plant's in the area. 
. All kind's of bacteria present in maturing aquarium's and can be interesting to observe it all slowly develop into mature, established,tank's.
As ,has been said,,there are may way's to skin  a cat.


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## Troglodyte

I think that when we all talk about starting off an aquarium cycle, we assume that everyone is at the same page in learning and level of knowledge. However when discussions take place on forums, it gets very polarised and stuck to positions, of what each person or groups, current knowledge or expertise areas of the subject are. I think we should first establish what is the current thought that actually occurs within the nitrogen cycle and what the latest scientific position is . Hopefully in this way we will be able to educate the uneducated, update the outdated knowledge out there and at the same time bringing all to a general level of knowledge that can be agreed as a starting base.  Wouldn't  it be possible for the scientifically educated to start putting a base line down as to the general consensus of this process, that way it will avoid all the general controversy going forward and potentially educate rather than further confuse the readers. If I knew how to upload a picture I could start off with a picture of a general cycle diagram, containing most of the processes? Anyone help?


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## Andy Thurston

I think we have scared the OP off... This thread was his first and would appear his last. Must be all the talk of dead prawns and ammonia

Id put a pic up for you trog but my laptop died. I think all the info is on this thread but needs looking at through unbiased eyes.
 I like the idea of planting heavily getting tank running with no fish but im far too impatient for that, so are many others.Thats why i use seeded media and monitor closely. As for pouring ammonia in, its an extra i dont really need. I cant afford to buy 5 meters worth of fish in one go anyway 
The OP's question was answered halfway down first page. After that people started defending the methods they use and they all started to run in circles with no real data to prove/disprove either side and it dosent help when people use words like "Crazy" 

If your patient plant it, get it right, then stock it

If your not patient, but dont want to stock all at once(like me) use seeded media and build stocking levels slowly

If your really impatient use seeded media fed with ammonia and fully stock when happy. 

One thing everybody agrees on is that fish and ammonia/nitrites dont want to be in tank at same time. The rest dosent really matter


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## BigTom

Troglodyte said:


> I think that when we all talk about starting off an aquarium cycle, we assume that everyone is at the same page in learning and level of knowledge. However when discussions take place on forums, it gets very polarised and stuck to positions, of what each person or groups, current knowledge or expertise areas of the subject are. I think we should first establish what is the current thought that actually occurs within the nitrogen cycle and what the latest scientific position is . Hopefully in this way we will be able to educate the uneducated, update the outdated knowledge out there and at the same time bringing all to a general level of knowledge that can be agreed as a starting base.  Wouldn't it be possible for the scientifically educated to start putting a base line down as to the general consensus of this process, that way it will avoid all the general controversy going forward and potentially educate rather than further confuse the readers. If I knew how to upload a picture I could start off with a picture of a general cycle diagram, containing most of the processes? Anyone help?


 

The problem is that people don't always want to listen or invest the time reading. Or are too attached to the half-correct 'lore' that gets bandied around. Or as you can see in this thread, there are various approaches that all technically work, even if they're nonsensical in the context of a planted tank.

Darrel tirelessly posts extremely informative and informed replies on these sorts of topics (see Best Way To Start A Planted Tank? for example). Whether people want to take it on board or not is up them. You can lead a horse to water...


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