# Calzone's new 120x60x45 optiwhite tank build



## Calzone (10 Jan 2012)

My Xmas pressie this year was the opportunity to upgrade the current 60l planted tank to a new 120-H optiwhite.  Some step up but am very excited about it, though probably not as much as the fish!

I've learned a lot from the expertise on this forum and the many excellent and inspiring tank journals so I thought i'd make a modest contribution myself.  I expect there'll be some nice mistakes along the way which hopefully will get sorted and just might save someone else the trouble later...

Right: the specs

Tank:  120x60x45 (LxHxD) optiwhite tank from The Green Machine, approx 320l.
Cabinet: grey ADA style modern look cabinet also from TGM (with matting, and holes cut for filter pipes and electrical sockets)
Filter: Eheim 2180 thermofilter, with eheim filter media pack, plus sera siporax and seachem matrix.  May upgrade to lily pipes later once I've got a handle on flow etc.  will also move the existing allpondsolutions 1000EF filter over to it later for the extra flow and bio capacity.
Lights: Arcadia OT2 4x54w T5 luminaire, probably on just 2 bulbs to start
CO2: TMC v2 pro regulator, fire extinguisher, Aquamedic AM1000 external reactor with scrunchy inside
Substrate: ADA powersand special, ADA Aquasoil Amazonia New and powder, penac p and tourmaline, Nile Sand
Hardscape: red moor root and TGM Blue Stone

Plants and livestock - to be decided

The tank and cabinet were delivered just before Xmas after only about a 2-3 week wait.  Awesome service from Jim and everyone at TGM with advice, chat, and mock up aquascapes to help choose the wood and rock pieces remotely.  They sat in the garage looking huge until after Xmas, when the wife and I shifted them into the new location in the lounge.  Ok, so I'll admit, this tank is so much bigger in the flesh than it looked when measuring it out.  It will have a huge impact visually, so no pressure to get it right there then!!

I soaked the wood for 3 weeks in the bath first, then put together the hard scape.  More on that next, when I work out how to upload photos via photo bucket.....

Calzone


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## George Farmer (10 Jan 2012)

Sounds like a lovely set-up.

I look forward to following your progress.


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## foxfish (11 Jan 2012)

Cant wait for the pictures


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## Rabb.D (11 Jan 2012)

wow... dream tank! all i can say is take your time with the hardscape and scaping planning and post a ton of pictures...

and photobucket is easy just register>>upload pictures from "album options" at the top right>>go to album>>hover over your uploaded pic>>bring your curser over the IMG code and click>>ctrl-v on your post and you're done

good luck and following


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## sarahtermite (11 Jan 2012)

Looking forward to seeing lots of pics of this one!


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## vauxhallmark (11 Jan 2012)

Did you just get in with them, or not bath for three weeks?


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## Calzone (12 Jan 2012)

Ha!  That made me laugh (though am a bit p@ssed this evening...)!!!

Will try and post pics tomorrow, though I think have picked the darkest corner of my living  room for this tank and it's so huge need a wide angle lens to take it all in and still get reasonable detail on the hardscape. So pics not at the mark Evans standard!!

Question: if I have white fluffy stuff growing on my wood with nothing added to the tank and no lights, is this most likely some kind of wood fungus, or algae? And will it give up the ghost at some point. Or do I need to do something?


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## hinch (12 Jan 2012)

boil the wood and scrub it off?

if the wood is soft then its rotten and needs to be cut out


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## Dan Crawford (12 Jan 2012)

Redmoor wood often gives off a fungus, I just leave it and it clears up after about 4-7 days, generally it's nothing to worry about if you've bought it from a reputable retailer, like TGM.


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## Mark Evans (12 Jan 2012)

Fungus can also be cleared by adding sae's


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## Calzone (12 Jan 2012)

I figured the fungus wasn't much to be worried about, and as long as its not poisonous to livestock it will clear up .  The wood was from TGM and was in good shape when it arrived, there's no soft bits.
Tank is currently cycling with substrate and wood, but obviously no livestock or plants yet.  Am following TGM Jim's recommendation to put the plants in after the ADA Aquasoil ammonia spike has cleared up a bit.  The idea being to minimise algae and PWC effort in the early days, as you don't have any lights on.

Test kit showing 4-5 ppm NH3, 1-2 ppm nitrite currently after about 11 days and only 2 50% water changes.  No sign of alga (well, possibly a tiny bit of brown diatoms on the glass).


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## Calzone (13 Jan 2012)

OK, some pics.  First up, the corner of the lounge where the tank is going to go, with the old 60l outgoing overgrown jungle tank still there (only plug sockets around...) while the new one matures.






Next up, the new tank ad cabinet in place, after a seriously challenging traipse through the house carrying a very heavy and large tank, and discovering that placing a tank of this size on top of a high cabinet in a corner is actually way more challenging than you'd think....






Close up of the tank and cabinet, with one bag each Nile sand and powersand special:





Here with the sand in, using cardboard to keep it in place.  NExt time I'd spend more time fixing this cardboard in place, as it didn't do the best job segregating the sand from the aquasoil....  At the top a small amount of sphagnum moss peat I had left over which went in as a base layer.






And finally, my quick sketch of the intended hardscape, followed by the mockup put together by Jim at TGM in his sandbox to show the potential wood pieces.











The "two island" soil and sand in place:


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## darren636 (13 Jan 2012)

she is a beaut!


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## Calzone (13 Jan 2012)

Quick question regarding posting photos.  I followed the advice the technical part of the forum, and am using imageshack.  But my photos appear to only be thumbnails, whereas other posters when you click the photo you get a much larger popup.  I figure I must be using the wrong URL link in between the IMG tags.  The syntax I've used looks like this (minus the round brackets of course):
(. 

 )

This was from the "clickable thumbnails" link for forums. I tried the other URL They showed but got nothing.  The link in the "DIRECT" box looks more or less the same, with the exception of the .th.jpg extension.  Maybe that's the difference?  Will try it.


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## Calzone (13 Jan 2012)

Ok - tried that and changed it and got the bigger photos.  How do I get thumbnails in the post that turn into pop up full size pics when clicked?


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## Calzone (13 Jan 2012)

Reckon might have answered my own question - the expandable thumbnails show up on tapatalk, but on a browser they just show as full size.....


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## Calzone (15 Jan 2012)

Time for a few more pics.  Some of them are a bit dark due to the lack of ambient light in that corner of the living room and the fact I havent set up my lights yet.  

MY objective is to create a 'scape that looks good as per the Nature Aquarium approach, but focuses on the fish.  I'm aiming for two hilly islands separated by a sandy "riverbed" area,so that I have two triangular areas leading the eye down to the "riverbed" located at the "golden ratio" point (am definitely learning on this site!!).  I'm aiming for a decent amount of wood as the dominant hardscape, supplemented by some nice, smaller pieces of rock to soften things a try to make it look a bit more natural (though no doubt the rocks and wood are never found together in nature!!).

Here's where I ended up after jiggling around the 4 pieces of wood for a while:





Close up on the left:





And on the right:


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## Antipofish (15 Jan 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> Ok - tried that and changed it and got the bigger photos.  How do I get thumbnails in the post that turn into pop up full size pics when clicked?



Nah dont do that.  We all have broadband, its easier and nicer to see 800x600 images from the outset, LOL.

The tank is starting to take shape.  Hope you got some good steps for that tall monster !  Like the contrast of aquasoil and sand.  Its something I have been toying with and after seeing a couple today, plus yours, I have decided to go for it too.


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## Calzone (15 Jan 2012)

I thought it would be good to put up a few pics of some of the equipment, partly cos I'm a bit geeky and like that sort of thing, and partly because there may well be a good few people thinking of buying new items for whom these journals can be useful.

The filter:  I went for the Eheim 2180 Pro3 thermofilter, can also be called the 1200XLT according to the box.  It maxes at about 1750lph, holds the best part of 25litres water and 12l media, plus prefilter.  I will need the flow in this tank, and I prefer well stocked tanks so the media capacity is a bonus.  Plus, it has two inlet and one outlet, which might help get a decent flow pattern in the tank.  And finally, it has a built in 500w heater, taking another item out of the tank.  Downside: the price.  Not too many on discount.......  Not had an Eheim before but their reputation precedes them.

I knew this thing was going to be big, but I confess I wasn't entirely prepared for the enormousness of the box.  I had a moment of panic, worrying whether it would fit in the cabinet (75cm high, but with a false floor meaning usable height inside more like 65cm), and as you'll see, its snug with the pipes coming out at the top.  They aren't kinked as such, but the bend in the pipes is such that the profile is flattened into an oval rather than a circle.  Probably not much of a flow restriction, compared to the head height, CO2 reactor etc.

Here you can see the filter boxed up, with the media pack, some seachem matrix and sera siporax.  Looks like the kit was direct from Germany given it came with a plug adapter (thoughtfully colour matched!!).  As an aside, why is it cheaper to ship direct from germany??




Close up of the filter box:





Close up of the top of the filter itself, showing the 3 pipe system, the temp control screen, and the flow indicator (little green triangles).  The entire pipe attachment section locks and comes out, which is a godsend as without it would be almost impossible to clean this filter without half flooding the cabinet...





The bits:
http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/6717/img7036q.jpg

That about 3m of hose (didn't measure exactly), and for this tank it was only just enough, literally.  Easy enough to cut with a stanley knife (one shortcut on my part gave me a nice little nick on the finger....).  The inlet pipes are huge, I would guess getting on for 60cm with the strainer attached.  Clearly this is massive and its some kind of hard acrylic so wasn't that easy to cut down to size (plus no mention in the instructions, so I dithered for a while before sawing away - I would recommend a hacksaw as my plank saw wasn't the best tool for the job!!).  Three massive baskets of 4l each, fairly sturdy, a long spray bar (about 45cm long so too long to fit in the tank along the short side).  The spray bar attaches to the shepherds crook inlet using a piece of hose rather than slotting in directly.  Not my favourite feature if I'm honest.

The Eheim media pack is huge, and contains 4 large bags of ehfimech, and 8 large bags of substratpro. This will fill the filter right to the brim.  I put the ehfimech into the bottom tray, not quite to the top, then about half full of substratpro in the middle tray, with 1 litre of sera siporax on top (this comes in an open wire mesh which I left on).  the top tray has some more substratpro with a 1inch thick layer of Matrix on top.  The substratpro comes in the form of of rough spheres about 6-7mm in diameter.  Ehfimech is hollow cylinders only about 7-8mm in diameter.  Sera Siporax is again hollow cylinders about half an inch on all sides, and the matrix just looks like a bunch of porous stones averaging 1-2cm in size.  I can see how the siporax would let good flow through it, but the substratpro really looks like it will resist flow.  But pretty sure Eheim will have thought of that.
Bottom tray:




Middle tray:




Top tray:




The final polishing wool and "lid":




And finally, the prefilter, which is at the top but competely separated from the trays below.  The water comes in through the two small holes, goes under the blue pad, up through it, then down the triangular overflow channel to the bottom, then up through the trays and back out to the impeller through the kidney shaped hole in the middle.  Photo in the next post as imgshack playing up just this second....


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## Antipofish (15 Jan 2012)

What a beast !


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## Ady34 (15 Jan 2012)

Hi there,
this looks like a dream set up and im looking forward to seeing it progress.
Ady.


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## darren636 (15 Jan 2012)

what you planning to add height on the right? Great wood, setup and journal


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## Calzone (15 Jan 2012)

Good question re the right hand side, it is a bit low.  It probably subtends the same angle to the riverbed as the island on the other side, though symmetry to always desirable.  Think will wait and see for now as I don't feel it's unbalanced looking at this time in the flesh.  Besides, I will be using stem plants to add height, and the greater problem might be they end up making it too high on that side.  To give you an idea, the island is about 15in wide and slopes up to about 6 in high.  I can't put stems right by the sand's edge as that would look odd, so I'll have to find some not so tall stems, then layer it up.  Of course, I can also try different angles for the wood, which might add more height and also help create some cave like spaces underneath with the stones as hiding places for the fish.

Do you think it looks too low?


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## Calzone (15 Jan 2012)

By the way Darren, I noticed from one of your threads that you have a hydro nano power head. I think I may well need one here to get good flow and co2 for the carpeting plants.  Can you tell me, is it powered by magnetic coupling with the wires outside the tank rondo you have to run a wire into the tank?  Also, I assume power heads stated flow is more or less what you get unlike with filters?


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## darren636 (15 Jan 2012)

the pico powerhead is held in place by magnets with the power lead entering the tank. It gives a good  gentle flow for my little fish to cope with. The power lead is a pain - i have it disguised by my co2 tubing.  the wood does look small in the pictures.... But as you said, stems will help with that.


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## Calzone (15 Jan 2012)

Here's the pure filter now that imageshack working again.





General question regarding flow patterns.  I'd intended on feeding the larger filter into the tank via ever a spray bar or lily pipe from the right hand wall down the long axis, with the smaller filter feeding in via a shorter spray bar on the back wall at the top left pointing towards the front to kick start some kind of circular flow pattern.  Now I'm not so sure this will give good coverage.  From what I read the advice seems to be that spray bars on the back wall pointing to the front give the best results, though most of the competition tanks you see use lily pipes and they're always flowing down the long axis.  Can anyone give me any advice here, specifically with a need to get good circulation low down at the front for the carpeting plants I'm hoping to out in?

Cheers


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## J Butler (16 Jan 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> By the way Darren, I noticed from one of your threads that you have a hydro nano power head. I think I may well need one here to get good flow and co2 for the carpeting plants.  Can you tell me, is it powered by magnetic coupling with the wires outside the tank rondo you have to run a wire into the tank?  Also, I assume power heads stated flow is more or less what you get unlike with filters?



Hi Calzone,

excellent start    I'm glad you sorted out your image posting issues as I for one am certainly looking forward to seeing this progress.

As to your earlier powerhead question, I've only ever seen the ecotech powerheads powered by the magnetic coupling you described. By all accounts I think they are the epitome of the powerhead world, however they do come with a daunting price tag. I believe Tom Barr (Plantbrain) and Sanj on the forum use them, not sure of anyone else though.

As for flow rates, if your feeling particularly masochistic, take a look here. The marine world are even more obsessed with flow rates than us planties, and they've taken the time to look into it kindly.

I'm still relatively inexperienced with everything, so I don't want to wade in too far to the flow debate and give you bad advice. Mark Evans's latest masterpiece uses relatively gentle flow, although I think he has a thorough maintenance regime that really helps. ADA seem to be similar, they were discussed a little here. Again, I think regular maintenance plays a huge role here also. I'm currently using a spraybar along the back and the circular flow pattern is certainly visible with the CO2 atomiser bubbles. Whether this is a case of providing another large safety net just in case of rookie errors and piece of mind, i'm not sure. I've also been reassessing all this flow malarky myself recently  

Sorry I couldn't give you any definitive help, I have a tendancy to go off on tangents and waffle...


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## sanj (16 Jan 2012)

Hi, 

it is true Ecotech Vortechs are expensive, but highly rated and visually possibly amongst the least imposing.

There do seem to be a lot of reefers braking up their setups in recent months, probably owing to the current economic climate. It may be worth keeping an eye out on the likes of Aquarist Classifieds and Ebay. Second hand they still are not cheap exactly, but cheaper. I guess demand for this piece of equipment is still strong.

Still other cheaper poweheads are good, I do use Koralias on some of my tanks, there is just more of them in the tank by comparison on similar rated models.


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## darren636 (16 Jan 2012)

so the magnets power the motor THROUGH THE GLASS?  that might just be the best thing ever!


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## Antipofish (16 Jan 2012)

darren636 said:
			
		

> so the magnets power the motor THROUGH THE GLASS?  that might just be the best thing ever!



Hehe, its called induction I think ?


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## darren636 (16 Jan 2012)

but better than laser guns though? Hmmm . Will have to think about that one... Certainly not as good as watching Nigella on a trampoline.


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## Antipofish (16 Jan 2012)

darren636 said:
			
		

> but better than laser guns though? Hmmm . Will have to think about that one... Certainly not as good as watching Nigella on a trampoline.



Lol, when did you ever see that ?


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## Calzone (16 Jan 2012)

keep it clean!!

I have moments where the cost of this becomes an abstract thing, I find its easier to ignore that way....  I've already made a few decisions (eg thermofilter, external CO2 reactor) to help take things out of the tank, so the wireless ecotech might not be an investment too far.  That said, one small wire isn't a disaster, especially when compared to the monstrous bright green Eheim spray bar and hoses.

Does anyone know: do the green eheim hoses reduce the rate of algae formation inside compared to clear hoses, or is there any other downside to using clear hose?

I may look into lily pipes later, though I admit I'm struggling to see how they can achieve as good a flow pattern in a tank of this size.

There's always the eheim installation pack, which is a smoky grey colour.

Regarding the background, I've installed a light diffusion film (essentially a privacy film for windows) on the back glass.  The idea being I could get some multicolour LEDs and vary the background.  While I was at it, I got some black vinyl film too, so I can always switch the background to black, at which point dark/black spray bars will disappear.


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## Antipofish (16 Jan 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> keep it clean!!
> 
> I have moments where the cost of this becomes an abstract thing, I find its easier to ignore that way....  I've already made a few decisions (eg thermofilter, external CO2 reactor) to help take things out of the tank, so the wireless ecotech might not be an investment too far.  That said, one small wire isn't a disaster, especially when compared to the monstrous bright green Eheim spray bar and hoses.
> 
> ...


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## Calzone (16 Jan 2012)

Try:
http://www.omegawindowfilms.co.uk/

Or google "window privacy film".  The above site worked out cheapest (though not cheap as such) as they were selling precut rolls at the right size for me, and included a scraper.  Fitting was not the easiest as I had a large width and small height, whereas most windows are the other way.  Unfortunately I got a few bits of dust/dirt underneath the film in one or two places and one small crease, but these aren't really noticeable.


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## Antipofish (16 Jan 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> Try:
> http://www.omegawindowfilms.co.uk/
> 
> Or google "window privacy film".  The above site worked out cheapest (though not cheap as such) as they were selling precut rolls at the right size for me, and included a scraper.  Fitting was not the easiest as I had a large width and small height, whereas most windows are the other way.  Unfortunately I got a few bits of dust/dirt underneath the film in one or two places and one small crease, but these aren't really noticeable.



Thanks.  You gonna put up a pic to show us the result ?


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## Calzone (16 Jan 2012)

Its already on in the pics I've posted, but obviously you can't really tell as the light's too dim.  Looks much like the wall behind it.  It will probably be more obvious when the lights are on.  It may take me a while to get some kind of backlight also, as for one, until the tank's safe for fish, I'm stuck with the old tank using up all the sockets.... (which only my wife can reach as I'm too big to fit in the gap left - something to think about BEFORE shoving 450kg into place.....)


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## Calzone (17 Jan 2012)

Some more pics...

The tank immediately after filling.  Note that the water is very clear.  I understand this is a feature of the Amazonia New compared to the "old" Amazonia types that got cloudy.  Never used them myself, but I was pretty impressed with this - no cloudiness whatsoever, just a few bits of floating soil .  I was careful filling it mind you, but still.  Way less cloudiness than I had before using heavily washed cat litter....






Here's what the filter setup and piping looks like, with the AM1000 reactor fitted (but no CO2 going in yet).  Piping is snug and have used just enough to avoid sharp bends - doesn't give much lateral movement for the filter.






The filter is so large there's only just enough room to fit in and the pipes need to bend away straight out the top here you can just about make out the slight flattening in the inlet pipes - I don't think this restricts flow much since each one is only carrying half the total flow anyway.  Not sure you can see it here but the flow indicator is showing about half max flow (restriction due to AM1000 reactor, head height and substantial media content inside).  I guess, with no empirical measurement, that flow is therefore about 900-1000lph actual vs 1750 max rated.






Close up of the AM1000 reactor.  Could not work out how on earth the backplate was supposed to go together or attach to the wall.  So in the end I just shoved two screws into the cabinet wall, slotted them into a couple of holes in the backplate, and hoped they'd hold.  So far so good. (actually this is my second attempt, the first, involving gaffa tape, lasted about 6 hrs).






Couple of comments about the AM1000.  For some reason, despite the fact its clearly designed for large aquariums, it comes with 12mm hose couplings.  Would expect many people fit this to filters with 16mm hose or larger.  The 12mm gives a cross-sectional area about half, so realistically the Am1000 could reduce flow by half or more if filled with media.  This is not good.  I thought about having a bypass and splitting the 16mm hose into two 12mm hoses, one going through the am1000 and the opther bypassing.  In the end, following advice on here and from TGM, I got out a tiny hacksaw and chopped off the "reduced diameter" bit of the hose barbs.  This leaves about half an inch of barb that just fits into the 16mm hose, which i secured with jubilee clips for a tight fit.  The i.d. is still less than 16mm and so will reduce flow, but less than the original barb.
Two other points: 1) getting the bioballs out of the AM1000 was challenging - it was the first one that was difficult!!  Just couldn't get a grip on it and there were too many for it to just drop out. 2) When fitted and filled, the damn thing leaked.  Nightmare.  320 litres of water above - aargh!  locking the filter pipe attachment, removing it and judicious use of a bucket solved that.  A bit of PTFE tape and more aggressive force when tightening the very large hexagonal screw (difficult as no tool will fit) solved that.


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## Antipofish (17 Jan 2012)

Hi, you are there so you can see it better than us lot on a pic, but personally I would not be happy with the constriction in that pipework.  Unfortunately I cannot suggest a solution but I think you may need to try and find one.  Seems a shame to have such an awesome filter only to restrict its capabilities.


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## Calzone (18 Jan 2012)

For anyone browsing interested in what the flow from one of these large eheims looks like I attach a couple of shots of the water surface using the spray bar.  Note that the flow here is indicating half or just slightly more of the max - so let's estimate about 1000lph.









Decent ripples but nothing scary.  If I point the jets out of the water they will travel about 40cm in the air before hitting the surface again....

You can see some pretty decent circulation in the tank with bits of floating soil etc.

More pictures of the hardscape.  Here's the left hand side:










And the RHS:




on this one you can see the white fungus growing on the wood.  From what I can gather this isn't uncommon with redmoor root and not much of a concern, provided the wood isn't soft and rotten





Finally a full tank shot.  





This tank is now wet for 3 and a half weeks and ammonia still showing 4-5ppm, nitrites 1-2ppm.  pH is showing 7-7.2 compared to the tap water pH 8-8.2 (my cat litter substrate tank is still ph8 or so).  So this ADA Aquasoil new really does do things to your water chemistry and really isn't safe for fish in its first few weeks.

Now, I have the lights.  I'm waiting on a CO2 regulator  - went for the TMC v2 Pro but it was out of stock everywhere, and retailer tells me they're shipping in a couple of crates from China, due in end of the week.  Will order a 2kg fire extinguisher, and I should be ready to plant give or take a few bits and bobs.

Which means I need to spend some time thinking about that......  So many choices.  Open to suggestions guys!!  Knowing me, I'll struggle to resist the temptation to put loads of species in there and make it look messy.  I do struggle imagine what it would look like if I did x or y....


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## Antipofish (18 Jan 2012)

How frequently are you doing water changes and how much ?


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## foxfish (18 Jan 2012)

You have some lovely pieces of kit there mate.  
What a shame about the filter being so tall that the pipes are now restricted!
The only way out of that would be to cut out the cabinet base, I wouldn't bat an eyelid about doing such things but I realise I might not be normal LOL.


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## Calzone (18 Jan 2012)

Actually, the inlet pipes aren't actually touching the ceiling, it's mor like they have a decent horizontal distance to travel, and I may have pulled them too snug. I may be able to address this with a bit of jiggling, or find some way of changing the curve they go through...

On water changes, am currently changing about 50% once a week - no lights, no algae and a cycling filter. 4 ppm seems the right nh3 level to cycle the filter, but obviously this will take more than 3 weeks, and it's not mature enough yet to remove all the ammonia. The question is whether I need it to be able to suck out all the AS ammonia spike, or whether slightly more PWC would be better and still cycle the filter fine.


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## Antipofish (18 Jan 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> Actually, the inlet pipes aren't actually touching the ceiling, it's mor like they have a decent horizontal distance to travel, and I may have pulled them too snug. I may be able to address this with a bit of jiggling, or find some way of changing the curve they go through...
> 
> On water changes, am currently changing about 50% once a week - no lights, no algae and a cycling filter. 4 ppm seems the right nh3 level to cycle the filter, but obviously this will take more than 3 weeks, and it's not mature enough yet to remove all the ammonia. The question is whether I need it to be able to suck out all the AS ammonia spike, or whether slightly more PWC would be better and still cycle the filter fine.



I was thinking the same thing as you re the ammonia.  And yeah its a case of adjusting the curve as I see you have space to do that.  There looks like a definite constriction though at the moment so I would be inclined to adjust that.  Are you not keen to cut the base of the cabinet?


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## Calzone (18 Jan 2012)

I think its probably an understatement to say I am not keen!!  My DIY skills are distinctly average, and my patience less so.  Plus getting this filter out over a 4 inch lip would be a nightmare - it weighs roughly 30kg full.  Anyway, I may have screwed up by cutting the hoses a bit to short, but then if I hadn't i'd probably not have had enough to fit the whole lot in.  If I can't jiggle things around better I'll probably end up getting 4m of clear hose, the green being unnecessarily vivid.  And its already coated inside with brown deposits (bits of fungus?  algae?  aquasoil bits?  dust from the filter media?  who knows?  its even in the outlet pipe which doesn't imply good things about the prefilter and polishing wool efficacity), so clear hose could hardly be much worse.

Another question:  does anyone use the Eheim double tap connectors?  I'm thinking of a way to make maintenance etc easier, especially for eg hose cleaning, and particularly around the AM1000 reactor.  Currently there's no escaping the bad ergonomics and extensive use of buckets and towels.  Mayhap the double taps would help.  That said, they are heinously expensive at twenty odd quid.  If I could be confident about hoselock fittings and sizes, they would obviously be cheaper though in my experience they're not too reliable or watertight, and fairly sure they'd restrict flow too.


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## Antipofish (18 Jan 2012)

Have you considered using 45degree pvc bends.  You would have a little bit of flexipipe coming out of the top filter attachment then going to a 45degree pvc bend and then back on to the flexi hose (with a little aquarium silicant as sealant)  That would keep the shape and the 45degree bend would not be too much to reduce flow as significantly as the constriction you currently have.  

Making a hole in the cabinet is as simple as drilling four holes in each corner of the piece you want to take out then use a jigsaw around the sides of the square you are cutting out (or if there is not enough space then use a handheld padsaw).  If you are not confident doing it then fair enough.  Don't want to ruin the tank.  If you were nearer I would come and do it for you if you wanted.  I don't see how getting the filter out would be made more difficult by doing this though, or do you mean just lifting it vertically to get it up to the normal floor level of the cabinet ?  Hmm, yes I see your point on that, it is a hefty bit of kit.  Flog it and get a G6 mate, hahah.


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## Calzone (18 Jan 2012)

Rubbish flow on the G6...

on these 45deg bends - do you have in mind filter attachment--> short 16mm hose-->pvc bend-->rest of hose ?  With the pipe bends glued to the hose?

I always struggle to fin 16mm id pvc pipe round my way.  I suppose this is about 5/8".

Thinking about it, given the hose isn't touching the ceiling, not obvious there's any need to lower the filter.  I think I probably just need a bit more slack.


----------



## foxfish (18 Jan 2012)

I didn't really think you would be keen on cutting up your cabinet mate - it is me who is the daft one  :? 
Anyhow the next best thing I can think of would be to buy some ribbed suction pipe, this type of flexible pipe has a ridged spiral that prevents flattening of the pipe when trying to attempt sharp corners.


----------



## Calzone (18 Jan 2012)

Could work, but I wouldn't want ribbed going all the way to the tank as not a fan of the look.  Could join the two using eg eheim tap I suppose.

Let me jiggle to see if I can improve it.  I fear I may have not enough slack to make much difference....


----------



## foxfish (18 Jan 2012)

I have some nice 16mm ribbed pipe in clear with white ribbing, looks pretty good but, yes you would need to join it to some acrylic or clear ordinary pipe where it is visible.


----------



## Antipofish (18 Jan 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> Rubbish flow on the G6...
> 
> on these 45deg bends - do you have in mind filter attachment--> short 16mm hose-->pvc bend-->rest of hose ?  With the pipe bends glued to the hose?
> 
> ...




Yup that was what I was thinking.  The pvc would give more rigidity to the bend and keep the bend open


----------



## Antipofish (18 Jan 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> Could work, but I wouldn't want ribbed going all the way to the tank as not a fan of the look.  Could join the two using eg eheim tap I suppose.
> 
> Let me jiggle to see if I can improve it.  I fear I may have not enough slack to make much difference....



If you have cut your pipe too short and not left enough slack, Im gonna be rude and suggest you buy more pipe ! LOL..  Compared to the overall spend its daft not to do that IMVHO   You were talking about changing to clear piping anyway weren't you ?  If you have a Maidenhead Aquatics near you, they have it for a couple of quid a metre I think.


----------



## Calzone (18 Jan 2012)

I think it's inevitable.  Makes no sense to go to all this trouble to get things out of the tank, buying great looking kit, then have fluorescent green tubes all over!!


----------



## Antipofish (18 Jan 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> I think it's inevitable.  Makes no sense to go to all this trouble to get things out of the tank, buying great looking kit, then have fluorescent green tubes all over!!


    right decision  and shove the 45o bend in at the same time   Tell you what, if you ask a saltwater aquarium keeper they will put you right on where to go for every imaginable pvc tank fitting needed.  They have it down to a fine art   I think we planties are a little behind on that score (though some are definitely using hard piping I see from some threads)


----------



## Calzone (18 Jan 2012)

Question regarding water changes:

Am currently using a hose running into the kitchen sink (10m?)' attached to a 1000 LPG submersible pump to drain, and am filling by simply turning the pump off and attaching the hose to the tap (hose lock tap attachment).  Works well hydraulically. My problem is this: my house has a mans water softener, essentially ion exchange swapping sodium for calcium.  Apparently the kitchen cold water tap is excluded for health reasons, but I suspec the hot water is all softened.  So if I try to temp match I'm running maybe 30% hot water which is not salty as such, but certainly high sodium given my tap water is very hard (working on the basis all those calcium ions are swapped for sodium). This may partially account for the significant pH reduction which I thought was all due to the Aquasoil.

My question is am I better to carry on temp matching the new water even with this high sodium content or should I use the hard but v cold tap water.  To give you an idea, my tank was at 24.5 deg C before water change, and I put about 30% PWC using only cold tap water tonight and the temp dropped to 20.2 deg C.  What kind of a shock will this give the fish?  The 500W heater in the filter has already increased the temp to 20.4 in the last 5 mins, so we' re taking at least 2-3 hours to get back to 24+ degrees.


----------



## Antipofish (18 Jan 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> Question regarding water changes:
> 
> Am currently using a hose running into the kitchen sink (10m?)' attached to a 1000 LPG submersible pump to drain, and am filling by simply turning the pump off and attaching the hose to the tap (hose lock tap attachment).  Works well hydraulically. My problem is this: my house has a mans water softener, essentially ion exchange swapping sodium for calcium.  Apparently the kitchen cold water tap is excluded for health reasons, but I suspec the hot water is all softened.  So if I try to temp match I'm running maybe 30% hot water which is not salty as such, but certainly high sodium given my tap water is very hard (working on the basis all those calcium ions are swapped for sodium). This may partially account for the significant pH reduction which I thought was all due to the Aquasoil.
> 
> My question is am I better to carry on temp matching the new water even with this high sodium content or should I use the hard but v cold tap water.  To give you an idea, my tank was at 24.5 deg C before water change, and I put about 30% PWC using only cold tap water tonight and the temp dropped to 20.2 deg C.  What kind of a shock will this give the fish?  The 500W heater in the filter has already increased the temp to 20.4 in the last 5 mins, so we' re taking at least 2-3 hours to get back to 24+ degrees.




That boils down to how fussy your fish are.  Some wont give a damn.  Some might and that depends on where they are from and how stable their environment usually is (and then of course factor in a lot of fish are tank bred now so it possibly wont have as much affect).  When it rains in south america the temp drops significantly.  This temp variation along with change in water levels stimulates breeding in many fish species.  Not really that helpful but its a factor to consider. If it was a tank full of Discus they would probably kark it , but a bunch of Corydoras would be whooping for joy and "making whoopy" !


----------



## Calzone (18 Jan 2012)

Right: plants.

This is a rough list of the plants I'm thinking of, either because I like them In other tanks, or because I have some in my existing small tank.  I'm not saying I intend to use all these, and in fact it would probably look messy if I tried!

Carpets:

eleocharis  parvula (like the grassy effect)
HC
glosso? (probably not both they look v similar to me)
Staurogyne repens (kept short)
Pogostemon helferi ( for the textural difference)

Wood:
narrow java fern plus a few small standard java ferns from existing tank
anubia barteri versions
weeping moss
pelia  or fissidens

Stems etc

Vallis. ( from existing tank)
Pogostemon erectus
Backups monnieri.  ( existing)
crypt  wendtii  - various eg tropica
echinodorus vesuvius  ??
echinodorus  ozelot or red diamond     As a feature plant
Heteranthera zosterifolia.    From existing tank - doesn't look great in there but that's low tech no co2...
hygrophila pinnatifida
hyg polysperma rosanervig    Love the colour and leaf patterns
limnophila sessiflora
ludwigia  glandulosa (arcuata?)  purple
ludiwgia repens rubin   red
myriophyllum mezianum (like pogostemon?)
nesea crassicaulis   red
apogenoton crispus red. Another feature plants taking advantage of the aquarium height
rotala  wallichi

Looking at the hardscape there's not really that much room for stems as the sand and wood take up a fair amount of space. I probably won't be able to use that many different types without it looking over fussy.  Also, while I'm after variation in textures and colours, I do think too much red can be overdone so might be limited to one or two max areas on each side of the tank, with the main variation being shades of green and leaf shapes.

I've spent a lot of time browsing inspirational tanks, a lot of them on this site, but haven't really been paying enough attention to plant types and good plant combinations.   If anyone with a good sense for the aesthetic has the willingness to comment I'd certainly be grateful.


----------



## darren636 (18 Jan 2012)

your hot tap will be softened water, which will lead to a build up in sodium in your tank over time. many fish from south america will not tolerate a big temperature drop and will die.


----------



## Calzone (19 Jan 2012)

Hmmm.

Not too many solutions to this problem, other than getting a big storage tank.  No idea where I'd put a 150 litre tank though.  How much sodium is bad for fish (other than the more brackish fish eg mollies)?    How much temp drop is harmful (1 deg?  3 deg? ).

I suppose in winter I may have to change water more like 3 times a week using just cold unsoftened tap with only a 1-2 deg temp drop rather than once at 50%.  How would this work with EI dosing?  Presumably broadly the same.


----------



## GillesF (19 Jan 2012)

Got more pictures of the cabinet? I'm planning on buying one from TGM when I move to another place but I'm not sure if they ship overseas lol ...


----------



## Calzone (19 Jan 2012)

Gilles - why don't you PM me if there's something you particularly want to see in detail, or have described?

Your issue might be the delivery  - but always worth calling them to discuss.


----------



## greenink (19 Jan 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> Hmmm.
> 
> Not too many solutions to this problem, other than getting a big storage tank.



I have two circuits into my tank.. Here's a quick sketch:






One does filtration, the other does heating and co2 (thats a picture of an am1000) and general bumping up the flow, powered by an external pump. Helps get flow right too. 

Water change -

1. Connect the garden hose to the T piece and close the pink tap - the pump powers the water out of the aquarium in a few minutes. 

2. Turn off the pump, close the red tap, connect the garden hose to the outside tap, open the pink tap and turn the water on slowly. The external heater gets the water to the right temperature as it fills. 

3. Disconnect the garden hose, open the red tap, turn the pump back on, done. 

Simples!


----------



## Antipofish (19 Jan 2012)

Im sure you do, but you are turning your heater off whilst there is no flow right ?


----------



## Calzone (19 Jan 2012)

I haven't even planted yet and already worrying about flow.  There's a great thread in this in one of the other forums


----------



## Calzone (19 Jan 2012)

Oops, wrong iPad button....

I can't find that thread just now, but the summary is that spray bars or the back wall facing to the front will give the best circulation pattern to feed the low carpeting plants at the front, most of the time.  I can live with that, since I'm not aiming for competition standard.  However, there are a few issues I'm concerned with.
1. I intend to have two filter attached to the tank - the big eheim producing say 1000 Lph, and the APS1000ex producing say 500-600 Lph.  If I work on the basis that both will go on thE back wall pointing towards the front I should have good circulation.  However only one of these flows (the large one) will have the CO2 in it as things stand, so it seems likely only about 2/3 of the tank will be exposed to the co2.
2. The total flow is only about 5x flow (real vs nameplate mind you) so I may need a power head, like the hydro koralia 2800.  But I don't understand what that best way to use the power head would be - on the side low down blowing down the long axis over the foreground low plants?  But this would surely disrupt the nice circular flow pattern.  Or on the back in the middle blowing towards the front to just ramp up the circulation already in place?...

The solution for 1 would seem to be obvious: split the co2 and send some to some kind of Inline diffuser on the second filter.  However, reading the blurb on the aquaessentials site for a co2 y splitter, it says you should split the co2 line before the needle valves, else you get uneven co2 flow down each line depending on the different back pressures in each line.  This starts to get complicated and possibly expensive!  I've already bought, though not received, the tmc pro v2 regulator + solenoid + needle valve.  Pretty sure the solenoid is after the needle valve and deconstructing this would be difficult not to mention expensive given the need for anther solenoid, needle valve and plug timer.  Does anyone have experience of running two diffusers from one regulator?  Could I chance running the two reactors/diffusers just with a splitter?


----------



## greenink (19 Jan 2012)

Co2 from just one circuit is fine - will get round. Just play with it a bit!

One filter is fine - an external pump is an easy way to increase circulation at a low cost and stays outside the tank so better than a koralia


----------



## curefan (19 Jan 2012)

GillesF said:
			
		

> Got more pictures of the cabinet? I'm planning on buying one from TGM when I move to another place but I'm not sure if they ship overseas lol ...



They do ship overseas....they are shipping me a 5x2x2ft optiwhite tank AND cabinet to Ireland


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## Calzone (22 Jan 2012)

Just changed some water and tested.  PH at 7.0 or so, NH3 down to 0.5ppm and nitrites still up at 1.0ppm or so.  So some signs the filter's finally getting its act in gear after about 4 weeks.

What was white fluffy fungus is actually more like black velvety stuff now, algae I suppose.  BBA I guess.  So even with no light the ammonia will stimulate algae growth.  More water changes required going forward.....


----------



## Calzone (24 Jan 2012)

Another day, another test.  Ammonia approx zero now but nitrites showing 4-5ppm, and nitrates 50ppm or so (tests for this are a bit rubbish).  Getting there....
Reduced regrowth of the algae/fungus, after liberal dosing of excel.  

Bored of waiting, so will book a day off soon to get on with planting......


----------



## Calzone (27 Jan 2012)

Plant plans:

AM heading towards collectoritis, cos I lack experience and frankly there's only one way to learn.  From what I can gather, max out on flow, get good coverage, add enough CO2, decent but not too much light, and you're likely to be ok with simple EI ferts.  No problem!!  Well, we'll see.

Having loads of plants might end up a bit like a jungle or not so aesthetically pleasing, but at least then I'll know.  And anyway, I think it will be ok so let's see.

Diagram of the intentions (subject to change of course):




And a rough draft of what that might look like using Tropica thumbnails and mikeappleby's idea:




Any thoughts (other than it might be too many types)?


----------



## curefan (28 Jan 2012)

Thats a lot of plants....might be a bit "busy" as they mature....but hey, im no expert!


----------



## greenink (28 Jan 2012)

love it! would bank the substrate hard though. think in general is fine to start with lots of plants, see which ones you like (and grow well), and then refine. if you're going to be doing a lot of replanting, then a divider between the sand and substrate is important, as is things in the substrate to stop it slipping.


----------



## Antipofish (28 Jan 2012)

Just been looking back over the start of this thread as I remembered you have an Eheim, which I am now getting too (though I am getting teh Pro3 2075).  Did it come with the Siporax and Matrix or are they your own additions, and if they are your idea, whats your thinking behind having them ?  Cheers.


----------



## Calzone (28 Jan 2012)

The eheim 2180 didn't come with media, which makes it pretty expensive all round.  The media pack they sell for it has enough media to completely fill it to the brim. Looked too much to me despite their claims that it doesn't reduce flow too much.  I put matrix and siporax in ( one litre each) as they have good recommendations, and I figured diversity is a good thing.  Probably won't make the slightest difference.  I also left room for some purigen for later ( didn't bother while cycling).

From a biological perspective, the surface area in there must be enormous.  The issue is probably whether enough oxygen will get in to make use of it.  Only one way to find out.  The flow is enough that the surface is nicely agitated so that will help.


----------



## Calzone (28 Jan 2012)

curefan said:
			
		

> Thats a lot of plants....might be a bit "busy" as they mature....but hey, im no expert!



It is a lot of plants, and the diagram looks busier than I think it will be in practice.  Some of it is driven by plants I already have too, so they won't cost anything and I might not put them in if the to-be-purchased ones look good anyway.

There's a good mix on leaf shapes, sizes, greens browns and reds in there, so I suppose it's more jungle then anything else.   I think you're right, there is a risk that it looks a mess, but the way my brain works I'll need to do it and see before I can get a handle on what looks good and what I like.  Plus, the bill will quite possibly put me off!


----------



## Antipofish (28 Jan 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> The eheim 2180 didn't come with media, which makes it pretty expensive all round.  The media pack they sell for it has enough media to completely fill it to the brim. Looked too much to me despite their claims that it doesn't reduce flow too much.  I put matrix and siporax in ( one litre each) as they have good recommendations, and I figured diversity is a good thing.  Probably won't make the slightest difference.  I also left room for some purigen for later ( didn't bother while cycling).
> 
> From a biological perspective, the surface area in there must be enormous.  The issue is probably whether enough oxygen will get in to make use of it.  Only one way to find out.  The flow is enough that the surface is nicely agitated so that will help.



What were the "good recommendations" ?  I mean, what were the reasons behind the recommendations ?


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## Calzone (28 Jan 2012)

Well, for one TGM are very fond of siporax (of course they do sell it but they have integrity too!), and I've read good things about matrix on various forums, plus I use it in my current filter on the 60litre tank.  On top of that there's a thread on here where viktor posted a link to his Hungarian (I think it was Hungarian, at least google did a bad job of translating it!) forum where someone has done electron microscopy of several top contenders and concluded the surface structure of matrix was ideal.  Of course, surface structure is one thing, but flow patterns around the media particles themselves is another, to ensure the thinnest boundary layer etc etc.  as I said, they're all fairly proven, and probably make no noticeable difference, but hey ho.


----------



## Antipofish (28 Jan 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> Well, for one TGM are very fond of siporax (of course they do sell it but they have integrity too!), and I've read good things about matrix on various forums, plus I use it in my current filter on the 60litre tank.  On top of that there's a thread on here where viktor posted a link to his Hungarian (I think it was Hungarian, at least google did a bad job of translating it!) forum where someone has done electron microscopy of several top contenders and concluded the surface structure of matrix was ideal.  Of course, surface structure is one thing, but flow patterns around the media particles themselves is another, to ensure the thinnest boundary layer etc etc.  as I said, they're all fairly proven, and probably make no noticeable difference, but hey ho.



Im a fan of siporax too (and of TGM  ).  I have heard good things of Matrix also but have the same thinking as you about whether it might reduce water flow, and am wondering the same with the ehfisubstrat pro that my 2075 will come with.   Definitely think I will be substituting some of it for siporax.


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## Calzone (28 Jan 2012)

Personally think that's a good idea.  I'm sure eheim know their stuff and have tested, but I just struggle to believe such small spheres that pack so densely don't reduce flow significantly.  Mind you, I have done no empirical tests so this might well be totally wrong.  That said, I don't think you can go wrong substituting one top end media for another as long as you don't overfill.


----------



## curefan (28 Jan 2012)

Stupid question here....do these media such as the spheres have to be changed for new ones every so often or do you just wash them in tank water???


----------



## greenink (28 Jan 2012)

I've never changed them and my fish haven't died. Smells like profiteering to me.


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## Calzone (28 Jan 2012)

I can't see any reason why you need to get rid of a perfectly good piece of media with a good bacterial population on it. Unless you don't keep on top of maintenance or don't have enough solids ore filtering and the pores all get clogged up with grunge.  But even then a good wash in old tank water should do the job.  Have never changed any in the lat yar and fish all still v happy as far as I can tell.  These things are non-perishable.


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## Antipofish (28 Jan 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> Personally think that's a good idea.  I'm sure eheim know their stuff and have tested, but I just struggle to believe such small spheres that pack so densely don't reduce flow significantly.  Mind you, I have done no empirical tests so this might well be totally wrong.  That said, I don't think you can go wrong substituting one top end media for another as long as you don't overfill.



Spot on !  I may even change all my ehfisubstrat pro for siporax to be honest.  I like the notion that siporax is 34 times the capacity than regular ceramic noodles (though I admit I don't know the comparison to matrix or ES pro.  I have to say, I would imagine that matrix ought to be good for flow because reefers are well and truly into their flow, although saying that, mostly they use circulation pumps.  I got right into the notion of the Deltec pump which used to electronically ramp the flow up and down to create a surge effect.  Now the bloomin Eheim electronics even do that !!


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## Antipofish (28 Jan 2012)

curefan said:
			
		

> Stupid question here....do these media such as the spheres have to be changed for new ones every so often or do you just wash them in tank water???



The first level of mechanical filtration should be washed when necessary.  If your prefilter section is doing its job properly and you keep that clean (once a month, depending on how mucky it gets) you should not really need to touch the mechanical section too much... I used to go on once every three months.  The further layers really should not need touching unless they are getting dirty, but the whole idea is that the first stage is mechanical, next biological and finally any chemical stuff you use like some use carbon, some use purigen (PM me if you want to know more about that or search for it on here).  

DEFINITELY only wash it in tank water though


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## Calzone (2 Feb 2012)

Finally took delivery yesterday of the CO2 regulator, which was the last piece of the jigsaw before plants.  Been on order for about 6 weeks.  Apparently only half the back orders were supplied so I got "lucky" (arguably...).  Its the TMC v2 Pro, two gauges, needle valve and solenoid in one.  Feels solid.

Also secured a 6.35kg CO2 cylinder from local Calor gas distributors (Slyfield estate nr Guildford) for £18.  Bargain.  Cylinder is huge but won't be visible behind the tank (82cm tall).

Below you can see the cylinder, plus regulator, plus some other bits and pieces eg dry salt ferts, timer plugs etc.  Feels like there's no end to the amount of stuff needed.






Close up of the other bits:





Also got the lights out of the box and fitted the legs.  Comes with 4 arcadia tropical pro bulbs, with two switches.  Very low profile.










http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/742/img7207y.jpg

Here it is on the tank.  Not sure the what white balance the camera was on, but you can see the lights are very pink:





http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/8712/img7209dt.jpg

Close up of the islands under better light.  Note the algae/fungus I had before is mostly gone - this seems clearly related to the ammonia in the water dropping - nh3 gone, fungus/algae gone.  Nitrite still 2ppm or so.









End on shot:





Next step- decide on plants, buy them, book day off and plant!  Finally!  I have a Koralia 2800 also, mnight be a bit overdone but we'll see.  If I cant get flow distribution good with two large filters, and big powerhead and an AM1000 reactor fed by a massive CO2 cylinder, then I'm probably not cut out for this lark


----------



## greenink (2 Feb 2012)

Is that a magnetic scraper? Don't use it on a optiwhite tank as it will scratch horrendously if a tiny bit of sand gets in it!


----------



## darren636 (2 Feb 2012)

that co2 bottle is fab. I shop in guildford. Do they do refills?


----------



## curefan (2 Feb 2012)

mikeappleby said:
			
		

> Is that a magnetic scraper? Don't use it on a optiwhite tank as it will scratch horrendously if a tiny bit of sand gets in it!



Im getting a new optiwhite soon, so what would you suggest for cleaning the glass????
Thanks, Dave.


----------



## Calzone (2 Feb 2012)

darren636 said:
			
		

> that co2 bottle is fab. I shop in guildford. Do they do refills?



they dont refill, they just take it back and give you another one for £18.  Still v cheap per kg.  Ask for beer / pub gas and not CO2.  Its food grade CO2 from Air products I think.  But just beer gas as far as they are concerned.


----------



## hinch (2 Feb 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> darren636 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



be careful with that as beergas can also be nitrogen + co2 not just pure co2


----------



## dw1305 (2 Feb 2012)

Hi all,


> I may even change all my ehfisubstrat pro for siporax to be honest.


 If you take it out you can sell it to me! it works and it looks just like coco-pops, what more could you want from a filter media?

Honestly it doesn't matter, all the bits about _pore space_ etc are just words, they may be true but it doesn't really mean anything. You can 1/2 fill the filter with any of ceramic rings, Alfagrog, Siporax etc. it really doesn't make any difference. The same with "aerobic/anaerobic" and "N2 out-gassing" it is the same, all irrelevant to us. 

Why bother trying to maintain the extremely tricky balance between aerobic and anaerobic, when you can just have aerobic filtration and then use plants to remove the NO3? It is a no-brainer, I can't even think of an analogy.  

What really matter is how much O2 you get into the filter, more O2 = more biological filtration capacity. 

The biological filtration capacity of any of these media is immense, as long as you can keep them oxygenated. This is why "wet and dry" trickle filters are so good for biological filtration, they have immense gas exchange capacity. 

People like canister filters for all sorts of reasons because they are quiet, neat, convenient, have Eheim written on them, etc. not because they are optimal for filtration.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Antipofish (2 Feb 2012)

dw1305 said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> 
> 
> > I may even change all my ehfisubstrat pro for siporax to be honest.
> ...



Hi Darrell, I have to disagree with you on this.  I have spoken to several people at the top of their field, including a cutting edge aquatic retailer and aquascaper who stocks EHEIM filters but will not stock their media in preference for Sera Siporax.  Most who have used both and been in a position to develop a preference, go with the Sera.  34% greater ability to house biological bacteria.  That has to be worth something.  I know what I would prefer


----------



## foxfish (2 Feb 2012)

The limiting factor with these type of biological filter media is oxygen!
It doesn't matter how porous the media is - inside a closed environment only so much biological activity can take place due to the amount of oxygen available.
If you expose the same media to an oxygen rich environment like a trickle filter then there might be a difference but there is no need as "none porous plastic bio balls" in a trickle filter are sufficient to be tenfold more effective than any porous media in a waterlogged plastic tube!
Its all about surface area & oxygen but, there is no point in having huge surface area without oxygen.....


----------



## Antipofish (2 Feb 2012)

foxfish said:
			
		

> The limiting factor with these type of biological filter media is oxygen!
> It doesn't matter how porous the media is - inside a closed environment only so much biological activity can take place due to the amount of oxygen available.
> If you expose the same media to an oxygen rich environment like a trickle filter then there might be a difference but there is no need as "none porous plastic bio balls" in a trickle filter are sufficient to be tenfold more effective than any porous media in a waterlogged plastic tube!
> Its all about surface area & oxygen but, there is no point in having huge surface area without oxygen.....



Are you saying that smooth surface ceramic media can hold the maximum bacteria possible that the oxygen levels in an enclosed canister system can sustain ?  What scientific evidence do you have to support this ?


----------



## foxfish (2 Feb 2012)

No I am not saying that, I am saying there is a limit to the effectiveness of porous media inside a plastic box with limited oxygen.
You can have 10 billion holes per square inch of media or 20 trillion holes per square inch but only a fraction of the surface area will be effective.
If you expose the media to air then the only limiting factor is bacteria food!

On that basis there is no need for a porous media in a trickle tower because the non clogging plastic bio balls will be effective enough.


----------



## Antipofish (2 Feb 2012)

foxfish said:
			
		

> No I am not saying that, I am saying there is a limit to the effectiveness of porous media inside a plastic box with limited oxygen.
> You can have 10 billion holes per square inch of media or 20 trillion holes per square inch but only a fraction of the surface area will be effective.
> If you expose the media to air then the only limiting factor is bacteria food!
> 
> On that basis there is no need for a porous media in a trickle tower because the non clogging plastic bio balls will be effective enough.



OK I must have missed something cos I thought we were talking about canister filters not trickle towers.  My bad.


----------



## foxfish (2 Feb 2012)

OK this is getting confusing!
I thought you were contradicting Darrel's comment about porous media only being as effective as the amount of oxygen that is available?





			
				Antipofish said:
			
		

> dw1305 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Antipofish (2 Feb 2012)

foxfish said:
			
		

> OK this is getting confusing!
> I thought you were contradicting Darrel's comment about porous media only being as effective as the amount of oxygen that is available?



I was contradicting his comment that it makes no difference what media you use, in the context of it in a canister filter which is what Calzone and me were talking about originally.  I disagreed, and still do disagree that it makes no difference whether you use smooth ceramic media or something like siporax.  I DO agree that biological filtration is limited by the amount of available oxygen.  But I also believe that the oxygen available is sufficient that a media with more surface area like siporax will have greater effect per volume than a less supportive media.  Does that make sense ? I don't feel I explained it very well.


----------



## foxfish (2 Feb 2012)

Well I guesse it doesn't matter much anyway mate. 
However if we ever meet I will take some time to put my (our) point across


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## OllieNZ (2 Feb 2012)

Has anyone actually measured disolved o2 inside a canister filter with differnt types media?
According to this http://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html nitrification slows below 80% D.O. and stops below 2mg/l. The larger the bacteria population the quicker the o2 depletion, especially in an enclosed environment like a canister filter.


----------



## Calzone (2 Feb 2012)

In my capacity as a once-scientifically-minded-but-now-too-mentally-lazy person, I suspect that in a filter the size of the eheim 2180, there's just way more media than you're ever going to need and you are therefore most likely oxygen limited.  If you had a small internal filter like a fluval U2 with Venturi, and you were a hit overstocked, the quality of the ceramic media might well be more limiting.

Honestly, I just got a range of medias cos it was fun, and not because it was going to really make any noticeable difference! Thinking about it, my question now would be, would I be better taking say 50%of the media out to improve flow as the surface area will still not be limiting but better flow will decrease boundary layer thicknesses and therefore improve new gas/nutrient diffusion into the pores?

Also, other than wet.dry sumps or filters how does one max out oxygen? Is decent surface agitation usually enough? Are air stones going to make any difference and won't they drive off co2?  Or just run them at night?


----------



## Antipofish (2 Feb 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> In my capacity as a once-scientifically-minded-but-now-too-mentally-lazy person, I suspect that in a filter the size of the eheim 2180, there's just way more media than you're ever going to need and you are therefore most likely oxygen limited.  If you had a small internal filter like a fluval U2 with Venturi, and you were a hit overstocked, the quality of the ceramic media might well be more limiting.
> 
> Honestly, I just got a range of medias cos it was fun, and not because it was going to really make any noticeable difference! Thinking about it, my question now would be, would I be better taking say 50%of the media out to improve flow as the surface area will still not be limiting but better flow will decrease boundary layer thicknesses and therefore improve new gas/nutrient diffusion into the pores?
> 
> Also, other than wet.dry sumps or filters how does one max out oxygen? Is decent surface agitation usually enough? Are air stones going to make any difference and won't they drive off co2?  Or just run them at night?



Surface agitation during the day will most certainly drive off CO2 and is undesirable (according to my reading rather than experience I should point out).  I hear what you are saying regarding the 2180.  Its an interesting question as to "at what level does that break even point occur" in terms of oxygenation vs relevant media capabilities.  I still suspect with my filter I am better off with a decent media than a basic one.


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## Calzone (3 Feb 2012)

By. Putting good media in you're removing it for sure as a constraint, and getting peace of mind.  Plus, there's a reason why people buy bmw's when skodas do a great job for much less.....   I'm ok with the "my media is better than your media" approach!  The great thing about it is that we can all enjoy that argument whether we have siporax, bio balls or platinum coated gold dust, as long as the fish are healthy.


----------



## darren636 (3 Feb 2012)

regarding the co 2... Nitrogen and carbon in the same bottle... What do you think of that calzone?


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## dw1305 (3 Feb 2012)

Hi all,


> Most who have used both and been in a position to develop a preference, go with the Sera. 34% greater ability to house biological bacteria. That has to be worth something. I know what I would prefer


 & 





> I have spoken to several people at the top of their field, including a cutting edge aquatic retailer and aquascaper who stocks EHEIM filters but will not stock their media in preference for Sera Siporax.


Don't get me wrong I like Siporax as well, but honestly it is just personal preference. I haven't got a product to sell, I like all the ring shaped media, and if some N2 out-gassing happens from a porous media, so be it, but that isn't my primary interest. 

To go down the car analogy I drive a "_W reg 1 litre Vauxhall Corsa with 105,000 miles on the clock, that I bought 7 years ago for £1800_", so that might tell you where I am coming from.

We have some kit (if I can find it) which allows you to measure DO2 in a chamber, but it won't tell you anything different. We used to do a lot of work in the lab with landfill leachate, which you can think of as uber polluted tank water, and the only reason you would use a sealed vessel (like a external filter) is for anaerobic fermentation. Honestly gas exchange and oxygen are the key, and after that everything else is just "_re-arranging the deck-chairs_". 

Calzone wrote:


> Thinking about it, my question now would be, would I be better taking say 50%of the media out to improve flow as the surface area will still not be limiting but better flow will decrease boundary layer thicknesses and therefore improve new gas/nutrient diffusion into the pores?


Yes it would, with most canister filters performance actually improves as the amount of media is reduced, or if you change to a media which clogs less easily. This is why I have a regularly cleaned coarse PPI10 pre-filter sponge on the filter intake, and 1/2 fill with media that won't clog (like ceramic/sintered glass rings, alfagrog or "coco pops"). You can then direct the flow from the venturi straight at the sponge, the intake can't suck in the large air bubbles and the pre-filter sponge stops any bulky organic debris from getting into the filter, I just want the NH3 in there and the flow speed to remain quick through the filter. All this "_you need the flow speed to be low enough for the bacteria to be able to absorb the NH3_ is a fundamental misunderstanding (or attempt to confuse?) about the processes involved. Both plants and fast linear flow help ensure water oxygenation, water plus NH3/NO2 and O2/CO2 is then re-circulated through the filter media as frequently as possible, the NH3/NO2 is consumed, the gases diffuse in/out along their diffusion gradients at the waters surface and the plants assimilate the NO3. It is KISS solution to bio-filtration, compare this to this set-up suggested by Sera: <http://www.sera.de/uk/hauptseiten/s...-siporax-what-kind-of-filter-is-suitable.html>.

The other thing to think about is if all the water in the filter becomes de-oxygenated you continually return NH3 to the tank, but if you have a high flow system that doesn't allow any denitrification, you return NO3 to the tank, and I know which I'd prefer.

Foxfish has written the important bit: 





> .......No I am not saying that, I am saying there is a limit to the effectiveness of porous media inside a plastic box with limited oxygen. You can have 10 billion holes per square inch of media or 20 trillion holes per square inch but only a fraction of the surface area will be effective. If you expose the media to air then the only limiting factor is bacteria food! On that basis there is no need for a porous media in a trickle tower because the non clogging plastic bio balls will be effective enough."


There is some work being done on re-circulating systems using biofilters (RBFs), obviously they tend use cheap bulky substrates, but this one should be available and is quite interesting. This paper (Hu & Gagnon) found crushed glass (not sintered, but just crushed re-cycling glass) is a very effective medium, and there is now a lot of work on crushed glass as a filter material (See Horan & Lowe).

Hu & Gagnon (2006)
"Impact of filter media on the performance of full-scale recirculating biofilters for treating multi-residential wastewater". _Water Research_ *40*:7 pp. 1474–1480.
*Abs.* "_The average influent 5 d biochemical oxygen demand (BOD5) and total suspended solids (TSS) concentrations into the field filter system were 381±64 (mean±standard deviation) and 46±21 mg/L, respectively. The results showed that crushed glass could be an effective medium in RBFs since the crushed glass filter produced stable effluent BOD5 and TSS concentrations of less than 20 mg/L. Geotextile was found to be another successful alternative filter medium with the effluent BOD5 and TSS of 18±11 and 11±7 mg/L, respectively, even though the porosity of geotexitle filter was as high as 0.90_." <http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0043135406000819>

Horan & Lowe (2007) "Full-scale trials of recycled glass as tertiary filter medium for wastewater treatment". _Water Research_ *41*:1, pp. 253–259.
*Abs.* "_Pilot-scale trials at a domestic wastewater treatment works compared the performance of three grades of recycled glass (coarse, medium and fine) when used as tertiary filter media for total suspended solids removal (TSS). Fine glass produced the best effluent quality but blinded rapidly and coarse glass could process three times the flow but with a reduction in final effluent quality. The medium glass offered a compromise with similar flow characteristics to the coarse glass, yet still achieve good solids removal, albeit less than the fine glass. Full-scale studies compared the performance of medium glass with the sand medium that is typically used in this application. There was little difference between them in terms of TSS removal, and they both removed around 75% of TSS from the influent, provided that the solids concentration did not exceed 70 mg/l. However, the glass media had superior flow characteristics and was able to treat an additional 8–10% of the influent following the backwash cycle."_ <http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0043135406004702>

cheers Darrel


----------



## Calzone (3 Feb 2012)

Blimey!!

Fish keeping attracts a lot of science people eh?  Gotta love it.

I thought someone would state this - that more flow is most likely better than more media, above a certain low media-content limit, which is almost certainly exceeded in most canisters, as this will transport more O2 and Nh3 to the bacteria, and will reduce boundary layer thickness on the surface of the media, which increases the concentration gradient and thus improves the rate of diffusion of O2 and NH3 into the bacteria and NO3 out.

Why then do I feel an emotional resistance, even accepting this argument, to removing say 30% of my media from the 2180 filter?  Weird, but I do.  Possibly because I've paid for it before thinking about it?

So it seems, the important things for filter biological capacity and effectiveness are therefore (maybe not in this order...):
- bacterial population
- O2 concentration (or rather ability of bacteria to access O2)
- higher flow (or speed of flow) past the media
- preventing solid wastes from settling on the media (prefiltering)
- quantity of media and media effectiveness (these two are not independent functions of each other), where media effectiveness is both a function of crystalline structure (pore density, pore sizes) and flow characteristics

AM I right?  Am I missing something?  Is the order reasonable?

Practically this means:
- get oversized filter, but don't over fill it - this means you can guarantee sufficient media and therefore bacteria population, while maintaining good flow
- maximise dissolved O2 (good surface agitation, possible use of air stone - at night when not dosing Co2), use high plant density
- Ensure good mechanical filtration in filter, to prevent solids settling on your biomedia.  Consider prefilter sponges on your filter inlets....or a pair of stretched tights!
- Clean your mechanical filtration regularly.
- Gravel vac your tank regularly to remove solid wastes since these hopefully won't be going in your filter.

??


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## Calzone (3 Feb 2012)

darren636 said:
			
		

> regarding the co 2... Nitrogen and carbon in the same bottle... What do you think of that calzone?



am pretty sure my bottle is CO2 only.  Its produced by air liquide, and states food-grade Co2 on the bottle, nowehere does it mention nitrogen etc.

Of course food grade CO2 might be a technical short hand for CO2/nitrogen mix for all I know!!   

I'm not expert, but I would guess N2 is not very soluble in water, and not harmful in any case.  It just likely means you would have wasted money and have to inject more, plus it might well reduce the rate of dissolution of the CO2, and in the case of an external reactor, might mean the reactor needs bleeding more.  But this is just a guess.  Will likely find out soon.

If anyone knows for sure what the downside of a mix is, please post.

According to the air liquide website, their co2 only cylinder is 805mm tall, 140mm diameter, and weighs 17kg full with 6.35 kg CO2.  This is what I have.  the mixed tank shows as containing 10litre water equivalent and is 764mm high, and weighs 21.4kg full and 160mm diameter, plus runs at 200bar.  Pretty confident this is not what I have, and will probably find out for sure when it blows my regulator off......


----------



## Calzone (3 Feb 2012)

Does anyone know for sure that reducing media content increases flow?  I ought to know this since I have a degree in chemical engineering, but that was a long time ago!

As I understand it, the impeller pushes water up out of the canister back to the tank.  it effectively has an unlimited reservoir of water just sitting there to "suck" from.  That reservoir is replaced by the force of gravity.  the "empty" cross sectional area available for water to flow through in the canister below the impeller is much higher than the hose its coming down from the tank in.  So does a lot of media make any difference to the impeller/pump?  Is it not only the head height and frictional resistance of the outlet hose that matters?


----------



## Alastair (3 Feb 2012)

When I ran tetra tec ex1200s, I removed the two foam blocks from the middle tray and noticed an improvement in flow.,
Also in my 2080, I use alfagrog and no longer the substrate pro and flow is much stronger


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## hinch (3 Feb 2012)

i've removed the wool pads out of all my filters and have only 1 coarse foam pad in all of them now the rest of the media is noodles + balls

think of it this way if you're filling a bottle a 1 litre a minute but trying to take liquid out at 2 litres a minute. does the bottle ever get full  and what is your final outbound max flow rate?

if on the other hand you put 2 lpm in and 2 lpm out does the bottle ever get full now and what is your  final outbound flow rate?


----------



## Calzone (3 Feb 2012)

and you're fish are still alive?!!?  high stocking?

Because lets be honest, that's what the filter is for.

If taking some media out makes no difference to fish survival (even at high stocking levels), but increases flow, thus improving plant growth, and also doesn't increase maintenance (or even reduces it), what's not to like?


----------



## foxfish (3 Feb 2012)

The problem with sintered glass & other porous, man made or natural, products is that they are very susceptible to clogging up. 
The whole concept of their huge surface area is flawed if the pours become clogged!
I can remember when these products first became popular (Siporax) about 25 years back and everybody was buying the stuff but, it soon became apparent that the efficiency diminished over a certain time depending on the efficiency of the pre filter.
I can remember how some fanatical guys were cycling their media but using three bags of Siporax & removing one bag every month, boiling the product & then replacing the bag!

Although it is fun to discuss this sort of thing at the end of the day if you carry out large water changes & spend time keeping the tank clean by syphoning the substrate you will be fine regardless of the absolute efficiency of you bio media


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## hinch (3 Feb 2012)

the filter companies don't sell as much filter media 

all my fish are doing fine only deaths in the past year have been a few tetra's escaping or being helped out of the tanks by the cats.

my 200l tank runs 1x aqua one aquis cf 1200 it has runs and noodles and one foam pad in the 3rd tray thats it. flow rate is fine and fish are fine with 0 0 0 readings.
The bulk of the biological filtration of a tank is usually done by the substrate/gravel/sand over the filter. So don't be intimidated by the filter manufacturer saying you ahve to have xyz in your filter and change every 3 months. 
strip it down as much as you like as long as there's some form of media in there i go heavy bioball over ceramics and foam but usually have at least one bag of ceramics in a filter and 1 portion of foam as a "polish" but I don't use the white wool its useless.


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## Antipofish (3 Feb 2012)

Alastair said:
			
		

> When I ran tetra tec ex1200s, I removed the two foam blocks from the middle tray and noticed an improvement in flow.,
> Also in my 2080, I use alfagrog and no longer the substrate pro and flow is much stronger



Hey Al can you quantify the difference in lph ?


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## Antipofish (3 Feb 2012)

hinch said:
			
		

> i've removed the wool pads out of all my filters and have only 1 coarse foam pad in all of them now the rest of the media is noodles + balls
> 
> think of it this way if you're filling a bottle a 1 litre a minute but trying to take liquid out at 2 litres a minute. does the bottle ever get full  and what is your final outbound max flow rate?
> 
> if on the other hand you put 2 lpm in and 2 lpm out does the bottle ever get full now and what is your  final outbound flow rate?



I can see you are getting at something here, but I am not clear what   Can you elaborate ? The answer to your first question is no the bottle would not get full.  In fact would it not stay half empty ?  I dont know what the final outbound rate would be, so tell me the answer, lol.  1lpm ?  Surely it can only be as much as the inflow ?

Second question, yes it should get full and the outbound rate would be 2lpm ?


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## Antipofish (3 Feb 2012)

Nick you have one VERY heavy but nevertheless interesting thread going on here.  Like you, I still feel an emotional resistance to doing away with media, LOL.  Actually I am hoping with the Pro3E I am hoping to get, it wont be an issue anyway.  SO I wont need to sweat it


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## Calzone (3 Feb 2012)

foxfish said:
			
		

> The problem with sintered glass & other porous, man made or natural, products is that they are very susceptible to clogging up.
> The whole concept of their huge surface area is flawed if the pours become clogged!
> I can remember when these products first became popular (Siporax) about 25 years back and everybody was buying the stuff but, it soon became apparent that the efficiency diminished over a certain time depending on the efficiency of the pre filter.
> I can remember how some fanatical guys were cycling their media but using three bags of Siporax & removing one bag every month, boiling the product & then replacing the bag!
> ...



I agree, I guess that's what the conversation is about.  More specifically, would the filter actually be more effective holistically within the greater tank objectives (ie plants, fish health and water clarity) if I put in half the media rather than full, given there's more than enough surface area in there?

On media replacement, I've never replaced any media.  This is nonsense advice aimed to a) sell more media and b) for people not wanting to do any maintenance. (with the exception of carbon possibly).


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## Calzone (3 Feb 2012)

hinch said:
			
		

> i've removed the wool pads out of all my filters and have only 1 coarse foam pad in all of them now the rest of the media is noodles + balls
> 
> think of it this way if you're filling a bottle a 1 litre a minute but trying to take liquid out at 2 litres a minute. does the bottle ever get full  and what is your final outbound max flow rate?
> 
> if on the other hand you put 2 lpm in and 2 lpm out does the bottle ever get full now and what is your  final outbound flow rate?



Not sure what you're getting at.  In answer to your question, if you actually do remove at 2lpm and input at 1lpm then you net drain at 1lpm, though your outbound flow is by definition still 2lpm.  if you put in and take out at the same rate the level does not change, though you outbound flow rate is still 2lpm.

How does this address the question of whether removing media increases flow for filters where the impeller is after the media?  Is the answer that the impeller is operating in a closed circuit and should be considered as pumping up the pipes, around the tank, down the inlet pipe and up through the media, and so the resistance to flow of the media does matter?


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## hinch (3 Feb 2012)

ok quick answer the media hinders the input flow rate down to say 1lpm so even though you can output at 2lpm your final output will still only be 1lpm because you're input limited.
input being any stage of the filter BEFORE the impeller even if its directly below it.

So by removing filter media you're removing the restrictions on your input upto the maximium potential input allowed by the diameter of you input pipework.

do a test put the white floss in all your trays and look at spray with bar above water level. then take all the white crap out and do it again you'll notice considerably increased flow


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## Calzone (3 Feb 2012)

I know this is true, because if you feed a filter with 12mm hose and output with 16mm hose, you must surely have less flow than if both hoses were 16mm.  Ultimately this is because the circulation around the "closed" loop is all drive by the pump, without it there would be no flow.  Now, I would suggest that if you were feeding the water in through the media from a different tank say by gravity, things might be different.  And actually pumps are crap at sucking and good at pushing, so I can even imagine that friction through the media has more impact than friction in the outlet (depending on pump design).
One wonders therefore why eheim suggest you fill the filter rammed full of media as this will reduce flow a lot and isn't necessary (apart from the obvious reason that they sell more media that way).
We should do an experiment on this and sticky it.  Debunk the myths.


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## Antipofish (3 Feb 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> I know this is true, because if you feed a filter with 12mm hose and output with 16mm hose, you must surely have less flow than if both hoses were 16mm.  Ultimately this is because the circulation around the "closed" loop is all drive by the pump, without it there would be no flow.  Now, I would suggest that if you were feeding the water in through the media from a different tank say by gravity, things might be different.  And actually pumps are crap at sucking and good at pushing, so I can even imagine that friction through the media has more impact than friction in the outlet (depending on pump design).
> One wonders therefore why eheim suggest you fill the filter rammed full of media as this will reduce flow a lot and isn't necessary (apart from the obvious reason that they sell more media that way).
> We should do an experiment on this and sticky it.  Debunk the myths.



The thing is, nowadays most Eheims come with media.  And the joke of selling loose media is, I know of a retailer who stocks Eheim filters cos he reckons they are the bees knees, but WONT stock their loose media, in preference to Sera.

Im now thinking along the lines of (in my 2075 or 2078 if i get it) a layer of Eheim Mech Pro (or anything similar), a layer of foam for anything the Mech pro has missedm and two layers of Sera Siporax.  And now Im thinking of the siporax not necessarily for its "claimed" biological benefit (although I still subscribe to that but for slightly different reasons) but because it is relatively open and will not affect flow as much as Eheim Substrat Pro for example.


----------



## OllieNZ (3 Feb 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> We should do an experiment on this and sticky it.  Debunk the myths.



Ill try do this at some point over the next few weeks while Im doing a dry start on my tank. The only issue I have is I dont have any high impedance media as Im in the bioballs/couple of foam pads camp and dont really want to go the expense of buying it. Could I use similarly sized gravel as an analouge to give the necessary restriction?


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## Antipofish (3 Feb 2012)

OllieNZ said:
			
		

> Calzone said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Probably not.  You would need to match the spacing, exact size, and weight of he media for the results to be valid.  Good on you for offering though.


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## hinch (3 Feb 2012)

if you don't mind waiting a month or so I could probably do it as I have a few spare canisters lying around and enough different media / foam pads to experiment think i've got an fx5, aqua one 1200 and an aps 1000ef handy to test. + enough different media to experiment with.  I've previously done this as a mini experiment on the aps pump which is how I came about the setup of ripping all but one foam pad out and having all noodles and bioballs in the trays



> One wonders therefore why eheim suggest you fill the filter rammed full of media as this will reduce flow a lot and isn't necessary (apart from the obvious reason that they sell more media that way).
> We should do an experiment on this and sticky it. Debunk the myths.



same reason they recommend new media every 12 months so they can sell more of it! ever wondered why they don't stock their "fancy" media by default in the filters? or why they charge £10 for one foam pad when you can buy 30m of identical foam for "ponds" for £10 on ebay and just cut it to the size you want?


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## Calzone (4 Feb 2012)

The answer is obvious.  Hence why we should address the issue.  Of course it's time consuming etc, so not easy to do, but might ultimately help us reduce the cost of this hobby.  Though I do agree manufacturers need a margin, which is why I don't mind paying up a bit for good products from Lfs,  cos they are very convenient and need to survive...


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## dw1305 (4 Feb 2012)

Hi all,


> More specifically, would the filter actually be more effective holistically within the greater tank objectives (ie plants, fish health and water clarity) if I put in half the media rather than full, given there's more than enough surface area in there?


I think the answer to this is quite often yes, the amount of media required is defined by the amount of oxygen available, but unfortunately we can't measure this easily, so we need to use indirect evidence. 

Because I came back to fish-keeping after a long time away it allowed me to look at filters, lighting etc without any pre-conceptions. 

Pretty soon after returning I met a couple of Bristol based L number breeders (this is Bob, fish keeper extraordinaire in his fish house <http://www.altereco.co.uk/portfolio/solar-powered-fish-tanks-bristol/>).





The Bristol breeders had got around the high oxygen requirements of their fish by trial and error, and were mainly using massive over-filtering with multiple filters on their unplanted tanks and large volume water changes. However other people had gone down the same "huge filter" route, but were still struggling to keep their fish alive, let alone breeding.  When I had a good look at a filter, I noticed they were using fairly coarse alfagrog as their filter medium. 

I was also looking at "Apistogramma forums" where people were using an entirely different approach, sometimes planted, sometimes not, but nearly always using air powered foam filters and very regular water changes. Whilst _Apistogramma_ don't have the oxygen requirements of a _Pseudolithoxus_ etc, they are also pretty unforgiving of any loss of water quality. 

This led me to the conclusion that the thread linking all the successful keepers was water quality, and what they were able to do (although they often didn't know it) was to maintain a combination of high oxygenation and water with a low biochemical oxygen demand (BOD). 

So the real answer is that it doesn't matter how you get there, but you need to ensure that *O2 levels always comfortably exceed the BOD. *

Because sudden "unexplained" L number death remained a real problem for many keepers, I wrote:
"*Aeration and dissolved oxygen in the aquarium*" - <http://plecoplanet.com/?page_id=829>

Which is really just a "cut and paste" job combining their fish keeping findings with the bits I had gleaned from the waste water work.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Antipofish (4 Feb 2012)

But my (very basic and possibly incorrect) understanding of the 'planted' aquarium hobby, is that too much Oxygen is BAD ? As it prevents high CO2 concentrations ?  Is that right or am I barking up the wrong tree (or just plain barking, lol)


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## dw1305 (4 Feb 2012)

Hi all,


> But my (very basic and possibly incorrect) understanding of the 'planted' aquarium hobby, is that too much Oxygen is BAD ? As it prevents high CO2 concentrations ?


 No, I think they are largely independent of one another in the tank water,  what makes a difference is the diffusion gradient across the fishes gills, because haemoglobin has an affinity for both CO2 and O2 (the Bohr effect). The argument If you have high O2 you can run the CO2 at a higher level, although I don't know enough about fish physiology to know whether that is really true. I'm not expecting to ever use supplemental CO2, so for me greater gas exchange is a bonus for both O2 and CO2.

Some details here: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen–haemoglobin_dissociation_curve>

cheers Darrel


----------



## hinch (4 Feb 2012)

dw1305 said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> 
> 
> > But my (very basic and possibly incorrect) understanding of the 'planted' aquarium hobby, is that too much Oxygen is BAD ? As it prevents high CO2 concentrations ?
> ...




thats pretty much correct for all living animals as long as the ratio of o2 to co2 is in the acceptible range then more o2 can also = more co2. too much o2 for example and you die too much co2 and you die either way but if the ratios are correct it can be as super saturated as you like.

for my L number tanks I have a big canister on each of them + a large foam + air filter too. for those l's that like more flow I then have a powerhead in too. the bases of all the tanks are fine gravel as I rely on that being my primary biological filtration and the canisters just have a coarse foam in them + bioballs just to give that little bit of mechanical filtration with the foam and a small amount of additional biological. but tbh once the tank is up and running and cycled I could do away with the canisters however I leave them as they give the tank an effective volume increase of 12L per tank


----------



## Antipofish (4 Feb 2012)

hinch said:
			
		

> dw1305 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Sorry, I was talking about plants not fish.  OR do you mean you can still have high O2 and high CO2 ?


----------



## foxfish (4 Feb 2012)

I think adding 02 rich water is a good thing as it allows more C02 to be safely added to the tank without harming the fish - I think  :? 
This is one reason the likes of Tom Barr & Takashi Amano use trickle filters in their home tanks or at least that is what I assume!
However I don't think adding air via an air stone is such a good idea as this would drive of C02 through excess surface agitation.


----------



## Antipofish (4 Feb 2012)

foxfish said:
			
		

> I think adding 02 rich water is a good thing as it allows more C02 to be safely added to the tank without harming the fish - I think  :?
> This is one reason the likes of Tom Barr & Takashi Amano use trickle filters in their home tanks or at least that is what I assume!
> However I don't think adding air via an air stone is such a good idea as this would drive of C02 through excess surface agitation.



Now I am getting it.  Dissolved O2 is fine, as it arrives via oxygenation within the filter but adding it via an airstone does the opposite ? Why don't we use ozonisers then ?


----------



## OllieNZ (4 Feb 2012)

Antipofish said:
			
		

> foxfish said:
> 
> 
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The problem with using an airstone in a co2 injected tank is that we are adding co2 to the water above the levels normally found and running the airstone tries to restore the balance between co2 levels in the water with co2 levels in the atmosphere. With a sump as long as you add the co2 into the tank or return pipe line it offsets the outgassing in the trickle filter.

Correct me if im wrong but Tom Barr worked on a massive tank where they were injecting o2.


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## Calzone (4 Feb 2012)

So did some maintenance today, essentially cleaned the filter and hoses.  The filter was in good shape, not surprising since the tank has been cycling without fish or plants.  The hoses however were thick with dark deposits.  It looked remarkably like bits of crushed Aquasoil, but expect it was algae of some form driven by the nh3 coming off the Aquasoil.  Cleaning it out was a nightmare.  Frankly, disassembling the pipes wasn't easy and there was some spillage involved!  I also took out about 25% of the media - there's still masses left.

 Anyway, this all took abut 90 mins, during which time the media was either in the air or not getting flow.

The good news was flow went up maybe 20-25% afterwards, some due to clean hoses, some due to less media I suppose.

The bad news is that I simply could not get the hoses back onto the shortened hose barbs on the am1000 without it leaking.  Which is not funny when you have 300kg of water above the leak.   Think this is because the hoses have stretched and the jubilee clips don't have enough purchase, and I probably chopped em too short.  Stupido.

Anyone know where am1000 parts come from?  Aqua superstore or aquacadabra?

Hopefully won't take too long to find some.

Second issue, having left the media out for 90 mins while doing the maintenance, I then forgot to add Prime to the tank when refilling (30% change or so) for about 2 hours.  So I suppose it's possible I have not done my bacterial population any favours.....  Which would be annoying given the filter was nearly cycled after 6 weeks.  Just wait and see I guess.  Not a disaster since I intend to put the existing mature filter on the tank too when I switch over the livestock.


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## Antipofish (4 Feb 2012)

Hi Nick, sounds like you have had a few trials and tribulations.  All par for the course when getting used to a new setup I think.  Hopefully you have not done too much damage to the bacteria.  Have you thought about a handful of hardy fish to help with the filter ?  Or do you want to remain fishless ?  When will you be putting plants in ?


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## Calzone (4 Feb 2012)

Fish less.  I'm not in a hurry, hopefully the stupid owner won't have set things back too far.

Plants, in intend to look at ordering v soon but will need a day off to plant as weekends just wont work.  Busy at work right now, so that's difficult to slot in.  Plus currently am co2 challenged!!  Until I fix that things will be delayed.  Shouldn't be much of a problem mind.  Hopefully.


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## darren636 (4 Feb 2012)

dosing ammonia is far more efficient for cycling. Probably twice as fast.


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## Antipofish (4 Feb 2012)

darren636 said:
			
		

> dosing ammonia is far more efficient for cycling. Probably twice as fast.



Hi Darren, planted substrates leach ammonia, often in quite high levels.  Is this effectively not the same thing?


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## darren636 (4 Feb 2012)

YES IT IS , ANYTHING THAT DOES NOT INVOLVE FISH DURING CYCLING IS GOOD,


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## Calzone (5 Feb 2012)

Well, if I did wipeout my backfires, I guess I can find out second time round!  Mind you it was taking ages.  About three weeks to get zero ammonia, and as of yesterday I still had 0.5ppm no2.  Will check later today.  Suppose if the Aquasoil is not kicking out nh3 any more it might be hard to tell.

In my experience the bacteria are quite robust to lack of flow, not sure about missing the prime....


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## Antipofish (5 Feb 2012)

darren636 said:
			
		

> YES IT IS , ANYTHING THAT DOES NOT INVOLVE FISH DURING CYCLING IS GOOD,



What are you thoughts on the sticky post on non fishless cycling in a heavily planted tank mate?


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## Antipofish (5 Feb 2012)

Sorry Nick, seems this thread is going off at so many tangents, spurred by topics you are raising.  Hope you don't mind these "sidelines" but if you prefer we can take them to another thread ?


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## darren636 (5 Feb 2012)

Antipofish said:
			
		

> darren636 said:
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my thoughts are that people can justify anything. But i am not going to get into that argument... It wears me out.


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## Calzone (5 Feb 2012)

From my perspective the more intelligence on the thread the better (I use the word in the sense of "data", but I like the other meaning too  ).

Personally, it seems there's a risk the cycling with fish will put them at risk or cause them discomfort even with heavily planted tanks. So for the sake of waiting a few weeks why not just go fish less.  No risk at all that way.  Jim at TGM even advised waiting to plant with the Aquasoil as the combination of ammonia, lights and small/adjusting plants will give algae big time, or require daily large water changes.  So while my tank is taking its sweet time to cycle ( some related to my timetable to be fair), I've only had to change water once a week and no real algae apart from some stuff on the red moor which had dropped off with the nh3 spike dropping away.

Sorted out the electrical cables today - my 6 yr old just fit enough to reach the sockets to replace the old tank's plugs with the new two lots of 6 sockets surge protected, individually switched.  I got the 12 because although I won't need 12, I will need 4 or 5 timer sockets, and these take up so much space.

So, my sockets use will be:
Eheim 2180
APS 1000EX UV
1 set of two T5 lights on timer
1 set of two T5 lights on timer (to use the 4 lights evenly and give flexibility
1 solenoid on timer
1 set moonlight LEDs on timer
1 koralia power head for flow on timer
1 for water change pump

You'll note there's more than 4 on timer switches.  I may put the koralia on the same timer as the solenoid, so there's high flow when the co2 is on, but not at night.

I fitted the koralia today.  Think I may have oversized it (it was on offer cheaper than the smaller models...). It doesn't look much but the substrate was more or less being lifted off the ground ( Aquasoil powder, no plants), and this is after the water has travelled a good meter or so.  I hope this will be fine once the plants and carpeting plants go in.  The good news is I can see the circulation pattern is robust at least ( before plants that is).


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## Antipofish (5 Feb 2012)

darren636 said:
			
		

> Antipofish said:
> 
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Didn't want an argument mate.  Just wondered why you were so definite about your comments, when there seems to be a definite argument against.  I personally go with the fishless cycling myself, but can follow the logic and reasoning behind the alternative.  Its always good to hear other opinions in case something has been missed.


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## Antipofish (5 Feb 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> From my perspective the more intelligence on the thread the better (I use the word in the sense of "data", but I like the other meaning too  ).
> 
> Personally, it seems there's a risk the cycling with fish will put them at risk or cause them discomfort even with heavily planted tanks. So for the sake of waiting a few weeks why not just go fish less.  No risk at all that way.
> I tend to agree, though if you follow the rules about "fish in" cycling and keep on top of the water changes and parameter monitoring I doubt the fish would be any more discomforted than in the LFS tanks, lol.
> ...


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## darren636 (5 Feb 2012)

i thought i was advocating the fish-less cycle.


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## Antipofish (5 Feb 2012)

darren636 said:
			
		

> i thought i was advocating the fish-less cycle.



Lol, you were weren't you ?  Maybe my comment read the wrong way round, but I interpreted that you advocate fishless cycle, so no confusion there


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## darren636 (5 Feb 2012)

i detest  people using fish to cycle a filter- hence fish-less ... errr... what is going on? i mean lets face it, fish -in cycling is a bad situation for an fish.


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## Antipofish (5 Feb 2012)

darren636 said:
			
		

> i detest  people using fish to cycle a filter- hence fish-less ... errr... what is going on? i mean lets face it, fish -in cycling is a bad situation for an fish.



Darren before making such a sweeping statement, can I suggest you read the fish..in cycle method described on this forum, and the reasons why people believe that with correct management there is no harm to the fish ?  You are sounding rather absolute in your opinion there (and everyone is entitled to their opinion) but there is evidence to the contrary of what you have stated under certain circumstances


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## Calzone (6 Feb 2012)

Test this morning: nh3 zero, no2 zero.

Given there was no2 in the tank Saturday and haven't changed all the water, this implies the bacteria didn't all die off despite my best efforts (subject to the accuracy of the test kit of course).

Good news.  Probably!


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## darren636 (6 Feb 2012)

Antipofish said:
			
		

> darren636 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


absolute i am  because  we want the absolute best for the creatures in our care. Sorry. Going way off thread calzone.


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## Antipofish (6 Feb 2012)

darren636 said:
			
		

> Antipofish said:
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Fair enough.  I just always try to keep an open mind about alternatives, especially when the evidence suggests that there is no harm involved.  Out of interest, do you also use RO water and try to match the water parameters of where the fish would normally be used to ?  I am thinking about getting an RO rig so I can do that.  I would love to have done a complete biotope match but thats proving more difficult than I first imagined.

Nick, are you going to be using RO mate ? I cannot remember if you have said that yet.  Its a big tank to be doing RO water changes with though..


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## darren636 (6 Feb 2012)

i make up ph 3 water in a water butt with peat. Using tap water. With a hardness of 2


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## Calzone (6 Feb 2012)

Antipofish said:
			
		

> Nick, are you going to be using RO mate ? I cannot remember if you have said that yet.  Its a big tank to be doing RO water changes with though..



I have no plans to do so.  My tap water is hard, which is mostly fine for plants, and not a disaster for most fish, though it may limit breeding.  I'll be careful to check LFS water conditions and drip acclimatise.  I will probably avoid unsuitable fish like rheophilic cats, soft water acid lovers etc (with the exception of cardinals or neons where they're tank bred and have somewhat adapted).

RO would just be expensive and painful, and frankly a step too far for the wife.

The one issue I do have mind you, is the water softener fitted to the house.  This essentially means only the kitchen cold water tap is unsoftened, which means that changing 50% water in winter is not possible without dropping the tank temp by at least 5deg C, unless I buy some huge container and prefill/warm.  Not ideal.

If I go EI, can I do several 15% water changes, with a temp drop of say 2 deg C rather than one 50% change?  Its a pain, to be sure.  But not sure that putting in loads of freezing water, plus a couple of boiling kettles will work...

Say two kettles worth is 3 litres at 95 deg C, and the cold tap is 150 litres at 10 deg C, and the tank is 180 litres left at 24 deg C, then by my clacs adding the kettles will make less than 1 deg C difference to the final temp (18.3C down from 24.....).  A 15% change of only 50 litres would take the temp down to 21.9 deg C, and with kettles to 22.5 deg c.

Pretty sure the fish will be ok with a 1.7 deg C drop for an hour or two.  Am I right?  Will EI work ok with multiple smaller water changes?  I can't see why not as I understood the 50% change was designed to stabilise levels and remove enough waste products, but was done in one change just to make life easy, doing it in multiples will achieve the same ends with more work.  

Regarding the cycling debate - sounds like we are all agreed, and that Darren has firm views to which he's entitled which is fair enough, and we can all move on to more practical discussions!!


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## George Farmer (6 Feb 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> Pretty sure the fish will be ok with a 1.7 deg C drop for an hour or two. Am I right? Will EI work ok with multiple smaller water changes? I can't see why not as I understood the 50% change was designed to stabilise levels and remove enough waste products, but was done in one change just to make life easy, doing it in multiples will achieve the same ends with more work.


Sounds good to me.

Most fish will be ok with a couple of degrees drop. It triggers spawning in a lot of species; similar to huge rainfall and seasonal changes in the wild.  Try to avoid much more than that though, as big fluctuations are known to trigger ich etc.

Regarding EI; the 50% WC is not set in stone.  Like you suggest, as long as you're dosing enough nutrients and performing enough water changes to dilute waste organic build-up, then you'll be fine.  I often think that lots of smaller water changes may be better for the overall system with less fluctuations in water chemistry etc.

Nice journal, by the way. Some great discussion points arising.


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## Calzone (6 Feb 2012)

Thanks George.  That's what I figured about the temp.  I suppose I could always refill very slowly, giving the heater (500W in the filter) a chance to heat things.  I don't expect it will make that much difference (suppose I could always get my partial differential equations brain back in gear, or perhaps more realistically, just suck it and see).  I normally leave the filter running when changing as it keeps the bacteria happy, but since I've just demonstrated they survive just fine for a few hours without flow, and because in future it will degas CO2, I guess I'll turn it off when changing water.  Not least since I just fitted the eheim installation kit 2 spray bar, which is better than the original, but doesn't have an adjustable height, so the spray would probably be falling a foot or so and potentially disturbing the substrate/fish etc.


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## hinch (6 Feb 2012)

in my 2 bigger tanks I just put straight cold in from the hose pipe however I have it running fairly slowly so it trickle refills the tank rather than bursts it


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## Antipofish (6 Feb 2012)

You could always warm the water using boiled water from the kettle


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## Calzone (6 Feb 2012)

Antipofish said:
			
		

> You could always warm the water using boiled water from the kettle



I can't tell if you're joking or not...  As I suggested above, it would take a lot of kettles to make the slightest bit of difference to 150 litres....

If it becomes a pain, I can always get a couple of 25 litre jerry cans and fill 'em the night before.


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## Antipofish (6 Feb 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> Antipofish said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



LOL, the  was meant to be the hint     OR you can get a commercial Urn


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## darren636 (6 Feb 2012)

do hydor  external  heaterd  fit  standard  hose???


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## Ady34 (6 Feb 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> If it becomes a pain, I can always get a couple of 25 litre jerry cans and fill 'em the night before.



Hi there,
thats what i do, 3 25l jerry cans, cold water, dechlorinator and a 25w heater in each overnight in the garage! Ready to go the next evening. 3 water changes a week is commitment no matter how small they are you still have to get all your gear out and put it all away!! Plus the wife is happy, 1 water change per week and no clutter in the house!
Great journal so far, looking forward to seeing it planted.
Ady.


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## hinch (6 Feb 2012)

i've given up putting the stuff away on mine I just put up with an angry missus its less bother.
Having said that though I am going to be doing some hard pipework for the big tank as there's no way I can be bothered bucketing that around


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## Calzone (6 Feb 2012)

Ady34 said:
			
		

> Great journal so far, looking forward to seeing it planted.
> Ady.



Me too.  Just so annoyingly busy at work and at weekends.....  Getting there.

Question:  if I decide the powerhead is too powerful, is it easy to control the flow by reducing the voltage?  As far as I can tell (not in front of me right now but...) the koralias run off 240V.  They are compatible with wave makers etc (which presumably work by variable voltage causing flow to go up and down?).

So, if I got a cheap electric fan controller off ebay (300W, 240V, plugs into the socket then you plug the koralia in and set the rate with a knob), would this likely work?  Or is my basic electronics knowledge off here and there's some feature of powerhead motors that needs some kind of fancier control method?  I just sort of assumed that these things are small fans, and thats' what the fan controllers are designed for.

Might ask in the DIY section too, as long as no-one minds the double posting....


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## greenink (7 Feb 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> giving the heater (500W in the filter) a chance to heat things.



What about tapping the cold water direct into the filter?


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## Calzone (7 Feb 2012)

Blimey.  I'd really need to know the heater could make a difference that way before getting into that level of plumbing.....!


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## greenink (7 Feb 2012)

am planning this on the new tank - hope it works!






will keep you posted


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## Calzone (7 Feb 2012)

Not tempted to shove a sump in there on the powerhead loop?  Also, how do you prime the pump?  Probably a good idea to get a set of isolation valves in there either side of the pump a la eheim double taps I reckon.  Extra cost but no doubt you'll be pleased you did come maintenance time.


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## foxfish (8 Feb 2012)

You can feed a sump using either an aftermarket 'sump overflow box' (as Tom Barr does) or you can get the tank drilled & fit an overflow box.


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## curefan (14 Feb 2012)

Hows the tank these days calzone....have you planted yet?
Any ideas on what fish you are going to stock......just thinking ahead of my new tank and wondering what your ideas are?
Cheers, Dave.


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## Calzone (14 Feb 2012)

I am expecting beaucoup de plants tomorrow as it happens.  Will try to remember to take pics!  Have attached a bunch of ferns to the wood already, though I had to hold these in my other tank for a while and they're not in fabulous shape, but hopefully with time will sort themselves out.

Planting likely to be quite dense, possibly even over the top, but should be fun anyway.  Gotta learn what works somehow!

Re fish, I will be transferring the fish from the old tank, these are beginner fish like zebra danios (4), platys (4 adults, many babies), 8 harlequins, 2 otos, 1 cory hastatus (can't find any more locally), various assassin snails and billions of cherry shrimp.

In terms of new fish am thinking penguin tetras, maybe some cardinals or green neons, possibly a few gouramis (maybe opaline or honey), and either apisto agassizi/cacatuoides(?) or kris.  I have hard water, so trying not to push my luck, for instance would love rams or electric blue rams but understand these aren't always healthy out of their ideal water conditions.  Altums would work in this tank but again water and temp issues plus shrimp eating issues.  Angels look great ( at least the nicer patterned ones) but maybe not enough to overcome the compatibility issues.  I do like large schools of small dither Fish like cardinals/neons/penguins, but a few larger more interesting fish work too.  Oh, and a bristle nose plec. Would love a blue phantom plec but looking at its requirements and size, maybe not.

Starts to look heavy on the stocking, but reckon this will be ok since this is a hitech tank with big water changes and overkill filtration, and the fish are all small. More a question of whether visually its too much.


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## Iain Sutherland (15 Feb 2012)

quite often less fish are more visually pleasing with a scape...

look forward to seeing it planted.


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## greenink (15 Feb 2012)

Plecs a nightmare with any carpet plants


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## hinch (15 Feb 2012)

l128's are no problem to keep as long as your not high ph/very hard water and if you're injecting co2 into your tank it'll bring your ph down anyway so it'll be just fine it will however eat most of your plants as will a BN


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## awtong (15 Feb 2012)

I don't have any carpet plants like glosso or HC as I am super low tech but my Blue Phantom doesn't really dig in the substrate not like my Leopard frog plecs do!  

Just to tempt you in .......





Andy


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## curefan (15 Feb 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> In terms of new fish am thinking penguin tetras, maybe some cardinals or green neons




I know you were in the Greenmachine before......did you see the Green Neons in Nature's Chaos tank....A massive shoal and they looked very impressive all staying together.


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## Calzone (15 Feb 2012)

Sadly not, all done over the phone.... But have seen the videos.

Planting today, probably 6-7 hours with all the unwrapping and rock wool faff.  Pretty sure my java ferns died from dry out during the process despite frequent spraying.  Putting the tank back together was a pain too.  It's the fishKEEPING bit I like, not the "oh you blahblahblahblahblahblahblah vallis, will you just stay in the soil" bits.

Pics tomorrow maybe.  Assuming the plants aren't all floating at the surface by then...


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## Antipofish (16 Feb 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> Sadly not, all done over the phone.... But have seen the videos.
> 
> Planting today, probably 6-7 hours with all the unwrapping and rock wool faff.  Pretty sure my java ferns died from dry out during the process despite frequent spraying.  Putting the tank back together was a pain too.  It's the fishKEEPING bit I like, not the "oh you xxxx vallis, will you just stay in the soil" bits.
> 
> Pics tomorrow maybe.  Assuming the plants aren't all floating at the surface by then...




Lol, I hear you on that one Nick.  What a pain planting can be.  Did the prefilter arrive ?


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## darren636 (16 Feb 2012)

thanks  for  the  beer  gas  tip.  will  be  going  to  slyfield  to  grab  a  nice  big  bottle.  not  going  to  fit  under  my  tank  though.    three  times  the  volume  of  gas  for  7 pounds  less  than  my  fe might have to cut the bottle in half in order to  hide under tank.....


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## Calzone (16 Feb 2012)

Antipofish - prefilter arrived and fitted.  Only using one half currently, though may put the other half on the other inlet with some sort of covering for the hole at the bottom.  That way prefilter both inlets with one part.  Man it is huge though, hadn't really realised.

Re the gas bottle - just bear in mind it has a collar to protect the outlet - this is a good thing except that it could make fitting your regulator/solenoid combo challenging  - in my case the solenoid is at an angle to the reg as this is the only way it would fit.  Seems to work fine though.

Am currently running the system with an intank co2 diffuser  - this thing is rubbish.  no matter where i put it the bubbles just go straight up and pop on the surface.  And a nightmare to fit and keep in one place.  Roll on getting the AM1000 fixed, and NOT LEAKING EVERYWHERE.


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## darren636 (16 Feb 2012)

i have similar issues with my co2 diffuser. I have it under my filter intake now but my bubble rate is astronomical  tried an intank atomizer,  great  little  bubbles  but  it  stops  working  after  a  few  hours.  strange.  am  thinking  about  fitting  a  co2  reactor  to  my  new  external....


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## greenink (16 Feb 2012)

Have an am1000 love it - crystal clear water. But bubble rate does have to be higher.


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## Calzone (17 Feb 2012)

Right, finally, took a day off and got stuck into planting.  I'm not the quickest, and there were a lot of them so took ages.  Plants and planting scheme broadly in line with the diagram I produced way back on roughly page 7 of this journal.

First up - the plants in their packaging:






The filter set up on a bucket to keep it alive while I plug away (can I just say I hate 16/22mm hose and taking these things down - its an ergonomic challenge at best):





I didnt take any pics of the plants unwrapped or any of the chopping up etc.  Suffice it to say there were buckets and rock wool everywhere.  Plants all Tropica from TGM.  Now I'm sure these are top end plants, and certainly they looked v healthy.  First impression though the pots are small for the cash (though with effort they do split up and go a long way).

A quick shot of early HC planting (these looked about the right sized chunks from the tropica vids - but my word they are hard to keep in the soil even with AS Powder!!):





And to cut to the chase, many hours later:













Carpets of HC, E Parvula and (yet to plant glosso), stauro and p helferi plus crypts in the mid ground, java fern and weeping moss on the wood (plus a sneaky anubia), Echi. Reni and Apo. crispus red as highlights, then a bunch of nice looking stems in the back layer (hard to see here).

On the left:









On the Right (with gap for glosso):





Currently CO2 via a diffuser, while fixing external reactor.  Lights 2x54w on for 6 hrs, with 1 hour gap in the middle.  No fish in yet.  Flow on the RHS very poor due to weak filter/overfilled/constricted hose.  Needs addressing.  Carpets on the left swaying in the current, on the rhs, not so much....

I may be asking for trouble at 6 hours until the co2/flow improved, so may look to cut that down to 4 hours.  Any views on that?


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## Calzone (17 Feb 2012)

The wood ont he right has slipped down a bit and needs repositioning further up to the right.  In the shot below you shouldn't really be able to see much of the prefilter on the inlet - the wood should shift 2-3 inches to the right.  Note that there are 3 caves under the wood in total, 2 terracota and one black plastic out of sight.






The sand needs tarting up too, the aquasoil is a nightmare to stop drifting down and covering it due tot he steep slope - will sort this out when the plants take firmer root, and move that big stone at the front that I forgot to move after refilling.


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## darren636 (17 Feb 2012)

that is a lot of plants  cha  ching££      very  well  done  for  having  the  patience.


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## Antipofish (17 Feb 2012)

Nick what a mammoth task, but it looks like you have done it justice.  Congrats, this is going to look lovely when its finished.  I know what you mean about planting in this aquasoil, and its why I changed ultimately.  (Although I did have regular and not powder size).  I am surprised what you said about pot size.  Would have been good to see a pic of some of them before you split them, so we could see a comparison.  I got tropica pots from P@H the other day and was totally amazed at how much you got out of them.  I was getting about 10 good stems and twice as many plantlets with the Hygro that I bought, and the crypts probably had a good 8 to 10 plants in each pot.  The Pogo split into a good 5 or 6 individuals...  If you got significantly less than that, bearing in mind what you spent, I would consider talking to TGM about it.  Or thats the amount you got but was expecting more ? Either way, you have broken the back of the job now, so well done.  I bet you sat back and looked at your handywork with a big smile


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## Calzone (17 Feb 2012)

I'm pretty sure I got the same as you, I'm not complaining.  I had maybe 20-25 pots so I didnt spend ages breaking them up into plantlets.  Eg crypts, I'm sure I could have got 8-10 from each pot, but I prefer to have them somewhat clumped together else the entire tank would be one big crypt.  I have two in my old tank and they look great tightly packed imo. on the pogo helf, there were maybe 4-5 plantlets in each pot,  I maybe got 3 or so from each, as a lot were still attached  via runners so I left em.

I was gettign nine cm square clumps of HC from each pot. Challenging getting the rock wool off those without destroygin roots and leaving nothing to plants them with!   with patience I could maybe have spread the hair grass more too.  But I got less patient as the day wore on and my body started failing me!


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## Antipofish (17 Feb 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure I got the same as you, I'm not complaining.  I had maybe 20-25 pots so I didnt spend ages breaking them up into plantlets.  Eg crypts, I'm sure I could have got 8-10 from each pot, but I prefer to have them somewhat clumped together else the entire tank would be one big crypt.  I have two in my old tank and they look great tightly packed imo. on the pogo helf, there were maybe 4-5 plantlets in each pot,  I maybe got 3 or so from each, as a lot were still attached  via runners so I left em.
> 
> I was gettign nine cm square clumps of HC from each pot. Challenging getting the rock wool off those without destroygin roots and leaving nothing to plants them with!   with patience I could maybe have spread the hair grass more too.  But I got less patient as the day wore on and my body started failing me!



Fair enough.  Knowing how busy you are, I would have otherwise suggested having them delivered over two different days but you wanted to get the most of it done in one hit.  And yes, detaching plants from rockwool is nowhere near as easy as it looks on the videos.  I found taking the large portions off from the outside first made it easier, then I cut the bottom third off as I would have cut that amount of original root off anyway to encourage new growth.  then a few pulls apart and I used the end of a set of nail scissors to 'scrape' the rockwool off whilst holding the root section in water, which made it easier.  It certainly took a lot of time.

My thinking on separating plantlets seems to be the opposite.  I wanted to do that so that each one could grow, and I could then thin out as necessary to achieve the look I prefer as the scape evolves.  My preference would probably be the same as you... instant effect, but my budget held that decision at bay   

Either way, I really like the look you are getting.  You said yourself there is a little work to do with managing the substrate.  I know from first hand experience with my original substrate what that entails, and I was too lazy to want to do that, hence changing before I got going.  But when your plants grow in more that will be easier and they should do part of the job of keeping it separate.  The end result will be great though   Keep those pictures coming.


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## Calzone (17 Feb 2012)

Certainly hope so, its not cheap this hobby.  Don't even want to think about how much I could blow on fish if the mood grabs!

I'm going to leave the soil until the plants have grown some more robust roots.  Otherwise its just an exercise in frustration with that slope.

Plus am absolutely convinced will need to move stuff around as it thickens and I realise where the dead spots are, shadows etc etc.  For example, the anubia is in full sunlight where it is, and might well act as too much of a central focal point. Already thinking of moving it closer to the main wood cluster on the left where it will be shaded somewhat by the ferns (if they dont all die that is).


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## darren636 (17 Feb 2012)

it looks fab  enjoy.


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## curefan (17 Feb 2012)

Any ideas on how to keep the Aquasoil from spilling out onto your sand?


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## Calzone (17 Feb 2012)

darren636 said:
			
		

> it looks fab  enjoy.




thanks!  even my wife was "surprised"!!!  Blimey.


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## Calzone (17 Feb 2012)

curefan said:
			
		

> Any ideas on how to keep the Aquasoil from spilling out onto your sand?



1.  Don't slope it quite as much as I did, especially in the first inch of aquasoil
2. Use substrate supports or dividers  - kind of like any sort of bendable plastic, to just below the surface
3. smash up some larger rocks or get larger graded gravels and sprinkly these on the interface to act as a barrier
4. grow the plants out a bit so the plants stabilise the substrate and limit the movement


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## Calzone (17 Feb 2012)

Day 2, 25% water change.   Aggressive fight with various crypts about whether they were going to stay in the soil.  I won.  Cleaned up lots of plant bits.

My word crypts melt fast!  Most of them are halfway gone already!  It's true that co2 distribution is poor due to the missing external reactor.  Now feeding the bubbles into the filter inlet and pushing hard to source am1000 parts.  Not easy as they wait for a big order from Germany.  Tedious.  Think will reduce lights to 4 hours to avoid stressing plants in meantime.  That said, myriophyllum matogrossense has, I swear, grown 4 inches in 2 days.


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## Antipofish (17 Feb 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> Day 2, 25% water change.   Aggressive fight with various crypts about whether they were going to stay in the soil.  I won.  Cleaned up lots of plant bits.
> 
> My word crypts melt fast!  Most of them are halfway gone already!  It's true that co2 distribution is poor due to the missing external reactor.  Now feeding the bubbles into the filter inlet and pushing hard to source am1000 parts.  Not easy as they wait for a big order from Germany.  Tedious.  Think will reduce lights to 4 hours to avoid stressing plants in meantime.  That said, myriophyllum matogrossense has, I swear, grown 4 inches in 2 days.



Nick have you thought about approaching one of the european retailers to try and source the parts you need or contacting them direct ?  I wanted a couple of bits from Sera and emailed them direct.  The wonderful company that they are, I had what I requested free of charge, 5 days later !!!


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## Calzone (17 Feb 2012)

Aquamedic uk certainly won't talk to you unless you are a retailer for some reason.  Worth a try though.


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## Antipofish (18 Feb 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> Aquamedic uk certainly won't talk to you unless you are a retailer for some reason.  Worth a try though.



OK, but what I meant was find someone who retails the item in europe, and get them to order the part you need and send it to you.  they wont have to wait for large orders before getting stuff over like the uk retailers do.  Same problem getting Sera stuff from my LFS, he only gets it when he is ready to order enough to make the shipping worthwhile because its expensive to bring it over, whereas they wont have that issue on the continent so might be able to order your part immediately.  The other thing you could as them OR your local UK retailer to do is make it a special order and have it drop shipped direct, and pay the shipping.  It only costs £12 to ship an Eheim filter over to the UK so a replacement part for your AM1000 should not be anywhere near that much ?


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## darren636 (18 Feb 2012)

need to know how your reactor does.... gotta get it sorted man !   i take it you purchased it second hand?


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## Iain Sutherland (18 Feb 2012)

[quote="Calzone" Plants all Tropica from TGM.  Now I'm sure these are top end plants, and certainly they looked v healthy.  First impression though the pots are small for the cash (though with effort they do split up and go a long way).
[/quote]

Firstly i love TGM, the range and quality of products is always second to none but....
I have to agree, while the plants are always healthy with nice roots structures etc but there not always worth the extra money.  With my last set up i used plants both from AE and TGM,  the aquafleur AE ones were twice the size and nearly half the price.  Think the benefit of AE is they hold lots of plants that tend to mature some what before sale.

Tanks looking nice Calzone, will be good to see it mature.


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## Calzone (18 Feb 2012)

PLanted the remaining plants from TGM which arrived Friday as they got a delivery thursday.  1 pot rotala wallichi, 1 pot hygro araguia, and 4 pots of glosso.  Glosso goes in somewhat easier than HC it has to be said.  the Wallichi did look a bit forlorn but its that kind of plant - delicate.  Splits into a good 5-6 groups each with 2-5 stems I would estimate, but i wasn't inclined to get too aggressive splitting it as I actually only want it in one small area.  The Hygro araguia is a new one, which apparently can creep along the ground, so I've put it down by the sandy river.  I expect it will therefore grow 2 feet tall in no time.

Adjusted the co2 diffuser to feed the filter inlet.  No idea if am putting too much in - but its about 4-6 bubbles per second as a) still a lot wasting b) no fish yet.  Have fitted drop checker now so we'll see.

Anyway, must be doing something right because pretty much the whole tank is now pearling gently.  Awesome.  Never seen it before as previous tank was low tech.  Life in action, love it.  Aesthetically of course it fills your tank up with thousands of bubbles, but at least you can tell what your circulation patterns are!!

One of the cheapo timers ain't timing.  tedious.  will replace with electronic one.  must remember to turn off light....

Will transfer some fish tomorrow.  Unless have overdone the CO2....

Piccies to follow.


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## Antipofish (18 Feb 2012)

Sounds like its all taking shape very quickly now Nick


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## darren636 (18 Feb 2012)

your  filter  will  be  ok  even  with  more  co2.  might  be  an  idea  to  knock  down  the  co2  whilst  the  fish  get  settled.


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## Calzone (18 Feb 2012)

that's what I meant - might be a bit OTT for the fish.

For example, my drop checker is not colourless.  Not blue, not green or yellow.  what does this mean?  I never noticed it going through any of the colours enroute.....  it just might be vary pale blue and moving towards lime green.  Course, there's so many colours in the tank hard to see really.


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## Ady34 (18 Feb 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> Not blue, not green or yellow.  what does this mean?  I never noticed it going through any of the colours enroute.....  it just might be vary pale blue and moving towards lime green.  Course, there's so many colours in the tank hard to see really.



Hi there,
DC should be an obvious blue colour when just filled, then when injecting should go to a dark green, to lime green, and on to yellow if theres too much c02.
A good way of checking the colour is to put a white piece of paper behind the dc (obviously not in the water) when checking it. This gives an accurate and consistent reference.
If its not obvious that its one of these colours, try replacing the solution it may have been contaminated with tank water or something else.
Hope this helps,
Cheerio,
Ady.


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## Calzone (19 Feb 2012)

Few pics.  First off the HC, pearling...





Drop checker turned colourless - dont know what that means, except perhaps maybe it got some tank water in it?  Planted glosso underneath.  With sharp eyes you can see teh R. Wallichito the immediate left of the wood.








The anubia - apologies for focus - auto focus on camera confused by the glass and hard to tell on the screen...




The Hygro.  Araguia.  Again, apologies for the focus.




Enjoy!


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## darren636 (19 Feb 2012)

what is going on with your dc??? which solution are you using?


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## Calzone (19 Feb 2012)

Its the pre-mixed stuff from aquaessentials.  It turned back to blue overnight, but its a very pale blue.  maybe they have overdiluted it, but it makes it very hard to tell the colours.  I will try moving it to the back of the tank where the frosted background might help with the colour check.  failing that, new solution.

It turned colourless in only an hour or so.  But I had been running the CO2 for a day or two non stop since I dont yet have livestock in there.  Circulation on the RHS is v slow, but the filter inlet is actually on the LHS rear, where its probably pulling in co2 rich water, my plan for getting the co2 over to the RHS.  Given the plants were pearling I figure there's decent co2 over there.  Which suggests maybe my bubble rate was high.  So have turned it down now to about 2-3 bubbles per sec and we'll see.  will put some fish in before the co2 comes on today, and their behaviour will help tweak the rate.  Like plantbrain says, just watch the fish.  if they're happy, no problem.


----------



## darren636 (22 Feb 2012)

stuck my co2 diffuser under my new eheim filter intake. And for the first time i have a GREEN DROP CHECKER!


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## Calzone (22 Feb 2012)

TRying that, but still most of the bubbles not getting sucked in.  part of the problem is that the 2180 eheim has two inlets, so each doesn't suck that hard.  am considering just shoving the co2 tube into the inlet and not using the diffuser.  However, this will be a lot of big bubbles in the filter, so not sure that's such a good idea.  If I could only somehow get more of the micro bubbles into the inlet it would be great.  No pearling since I put the co2 onto a timer, and the drop checker hasn't quite gone colourless like last time.  I could persuade myself if is heading towards green though.  

Course, all of this should be moot once the reactor gets fixed.


----------



## darren636 (22 Feb 2012)

ah. That explains the 3 tubes on the big eheims.  i would say 99 percent of my bubbles get sucked into my filter. Loving the external eheim. Makes the jewel internal seem crude and intrusive.


----------



## skeletonw00t (22 Feb 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> TRying that, but still most of the bubbles not getting sucked in.  part of the problem is that the 2180 eheim has two inlets, so each doesn't suck that hard.  am considering just shoving the co2 tube into the inlet and not using the diffuser.  However, this will be a lot of big bubbles in the filter, so not sure that's such a good idea.  If I could only somehow get more of the micro bubbles into the inlet it would be great.  No pearling since I put the co2 onto a timer, and the drop checker hasn't quite gone colourless like last time.  I could persuade myself if is heading towards green though.
> 
> Course, all of this should be moot once the reactor gets fixed.



Someone correct me if im wrong here but i dont think having "big bubbles" going into the filter will affect anything. Also once the bubble is sucked into the inlet pipe & blown about in the flow it will be diffused into smaller bubbles anyway.


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## Calzone (22 Feb 2012)

well, there's only one way to find out!!  I just have this image of a big bubble staying intact until it gets tot he impeller.  But you're right, even if it survives passage through the hose, it then has to pass through a prefilter foam, then 3 inches of ehfimech, then three inches of eheim media and siporax, and then three inches of matrix, before passing through a fine polishing wool, before it gets to the impeller.  Most likely it will be in small bubbles by this point, unless its a very macho bubble.  Not sure what the flow pattern into the impeller casing is, possibly there's some sort of venturi effect lowering pressure as the flow speeds up causing gas to come back out of solution or resulting in cavitation, but I think this is pointless worrying when compared to the obvious solution, of, you know, just trying it.

Probably find it works fine and sixty quid's worth of reactor is pointless.


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## skeletonw00t (22 Feb 2012)

It wont be in any bubbles by the time it reaches the impeller - it should of all dissolved into the water. Some will probably collect and the filter will cough it up once in a while.


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## darren636 (22 Feb 2012)

yeah. Your reactor sucks. Give it to me.


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## Calzone (22 Feb 2012)

but seriously, if feeding into the filter is just as effective, why do we bother with reactors?


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## skeletonw00t (22 Feb 2012)

I'd like to know the answer to this too


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## foxfish (22 Feb 2012)

A well designed reactor will give 100% dissolved gas without the burping that happens when you get a build up of undissolved gas inside your filter.
Personally I am not keen on any reactor that is not made of clear material, I like to see what is going on & adjust the flows to suit.


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## Calzone (22 Feb 2012)

So really a filter is just a badly designed reactor without the ability to bleed undissolved gas or see what's going on?  I do agree that being see through is a nice feature of the commercial reactors.

On this topic, and I know I've asked this before, but why do aquamedic design a reactor for huge tanks, a high flow rates, then out 16/12mm connectors on it?  Is it something to do with increasing flow speed to stop gas escaping, or some sort of veNturi effect?  Or just odd?


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## foxfish (22 Feb 2012)

Good point but you can push a lot of water through 16mm pipe with the right pump!
Here is my reactor with 20mm pipe


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## Calzone (27 Feb 2012)

Update: finally got some new hosetails for the reactor. Had a job getting the old ones out but managed eventually.  Also got the eheim jubilee clips to tighten the hoses on, and these are a superior design it has to be said.  Also invested (ouch) in the eheim double taps, as this will make life easier in the long run for maintenance, hose cleaning etc.  not fitted the reactor yet as it needs a bit of time and we had guests at the weekend.  So currently still feeding the co2 into the filter inlet.  This isn't great,  it barfs out big chunks every so often.  The fish seem ok, and the drop checker is getting yellow by end of day.  Mind you it's half way up the tank not near the substrate.

I am having a problem with the carpeting plants, especially the HC, and less so the glosso. I think the HC is growing out well, but it's threatening to yellow in parts.  I can't tell if this is normal or not.  Now I havea lot of flow - 1200lph or so from the eheim, 300lph or so from the other filter (it's struggling with the head), 2800lph from a the koralia and another 900lph from a small koralia.  All on the back top pointing towards the front.  The plants are waving nicely.  I can tell from bubble movement that there is decent flOw by the substrate where the carpeting plants are, but maybe the pattern is still not quite there. Or maybe they're just settling in.  Possibly fitting the reactor will help.  Interestingly, the plants no longer pearl like they did when I had bubbles from The diffuser and a blue drop checker.....  Suggests some kind of co2 issue.

Also, the damn clumps just keep on coming out of the substrate.  I think I just didn't take enough rock wool off the roots, and what with fish poking around and high flow, as the roots grow they seem to push the rock wool up out of the substrate.

Other than that going ok.  Crypts partially but not completely melted. Stems growing. Fish happy.  Added more harlequins at the weekend, pretty much babies.  One got bashed to death overnight by aggressive platies, the rest seem to be left alone now.


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## Antipofish (27 Feb 2012)

You have platies in there ? mg:


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## Calzone (27 Feb 2012)

Ha ha!  I know it's not cool, but they were in the old tank which was originally a kids tank, and I don't have  the heart to


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## Calzone (27 Feb 2012)

.... Take 'em back to the shop.  Besides, at 29 babies a month, I get decent credit towards new fish.


Oh, I also got a betta for the old tank.  Sky blue body, golden fins and tail.  Stunning fish.  Very interesting cat like personality.  Might have to thin out the plants though as he's not a great swimmer, plus quite hard to see him.

And if that make me even more uncool, so be it!!


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## Antipofish (27 Feb 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> .... Take 'em back to the shop.  Besides, at 29 babies a month, I get decent credit towards new fish.
> 
> 
> Oh, I also got a betta for the old tank.  Sky blue body, golden fins and tail.  Stunning fish.  Very interesting cat like personality.  Might have to thin out the plants though as he's not a great swimmer, plus quite hard to see him.
> ...



Its not the cool factor that bothers me, its the fact that they will eat your plants, LOL.  I believe platies like noshing on plants don't they? Or am I totally wrong ?


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## foxfish (28 Feb 2012)

When I have had problems with plants floating up from the bottom. I found a lead staple works well.
Just cut with a pair of scissors a little strip of lead & bend it into a horse shoe then staple the plant to the substrate.
You can easily remove the staple after a week or so.


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## Calzone (28 Feb 2012)

Antipofish said:
			
		

> Its not the cool factor that bothers me, its the fact that they will eat your plants, LOL.  I believe platies like noshing on plants don't they? Or am I totally wrong ?



My platies have never touched the plants, except the odd nibble on leaves here and there, but then they are well fed.  

On stocking, so I have maybe 4-5 platies, 4 zebra danios from the old tank.  I will probably just keep these until they die of happy old age (and will keep extracting the babies to avoid getting swamped).  In addition I have now 12 harlequins, and probably 100 RCS.

Currently this actually looks like a fair few fish, even in a tank of this size, but to some extent this is because the plants haven't grown in yet.  I expect with denser plant mass there will be room for more.

I have eyes on 2-3 apistos, and possibly some gouramis for the top level.  Then I am keen on a small school of corys ( I like the dwarf hastatus, but hard to find locally) or a bristlenose plec or clown plec.  Perhaps a couple of otos and some amano shrimp and it will be looking good.

So the final question is, with the above, would there be room for say 20 cardinals?  On the face of it this is well stocked, maybe even over stocked, but with oversized filtration, dense plant mass, good surface turnover and regular large water changes on the cards anyway the fish should be fine, I think.  All of these are good natured fish as far as I know and with heavy planting, a number of caves, shaded areas under the wood/ferns and a sandy area its a decent environment.

But would it look over busy?  By the aesthetic standards of the nature aquarium yes it probably would, but I like the high activity levels.  Perhaps it would workd better without the platies and danios ultimately.
Thoughts?


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## Antipofish (28 Feb 2012)

With the filtration you have and the size of the tank, that stocking is no problem at all.  I have had three times that in a 3' x 1.5 x 1.5 using a fluval 403 filter and never had a problem.  People get way too hung up on this stocking density rule that is bandied about IMO.  Its about what your filter can cope with, and what YOU can cope with in terms of maintaining good water quality.  There are other factors too like the CO2 vs O2 levels in your tank.  And obviously you would not want to add them all in one go, but I know you know better than that Nick. You also need to think about what fish you are putting in... if its a community of fish they need to be reasonably compatible and also not likely to outgrow the tank, unless you are happy to move them on when they get bigger (which judging by your reluctance to move your platies on, LOL, I don't see that happening, and good for you on that, its a refreshing attitude towards fish.  My LFS will take larger specimens back and swap them for smaller ones, or give a small credit against other fish so its not an issue for me).   I always look at it this way... "I CAN keep them, but SHOULD I keep them"  Its the age old "you can keep a polar bear in a zoo, but SHOULD you" dilemma.  

Would it look over busy ?  You are the only person who can answer that.  Its your tank and you know what look you like and what you don't like.  Personally I'm in it for the fish as much as the plants and I intend to have a nice compliment of fish.  I have sort of made a list of what I want, in the order of preference, and I will add them until the tank is looking right.  If i then add the next thing on the list and it was the straw that broke the camels back (in terms of busyness or look of the tank) i will take them out again.

20 cardinals will look great.  30 would look better IMO.  

Just consider that the apistos are likely to target shrimp though (as I have been reliably informed by several experienced aquarists).  Yours might not, and if you like apistos enough then try them.  But Im a bit miffed because I originally was setting this up just as a "little biotope" for apistos, (LMAO when I think what levels of interest in the planted hobby I have been driven to now) and then I was told "apistos will muller the shrimp" and then "dwarf chain loach will muller the shrimp" (which is a P.I.T.A. as I wanted them to keep snails down so will have to get assassin snails instead).

Bet those harlequins look nice though.  I saw some copper ones yesterday and they were cracking.


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## curefan (28 Feb 2012)

Hi Calzone,
Question for ye!

You may or may not remember, but im starting a very similar setup in a 5x2x2 ft tank.

I was wondering about your experience with the OT2 light unit which I just mounted on today.

First of all, i find the brackets that mount to the glass extremely flimsy and wonder if the are up to the weight of the light (mines very heavy being 5 ft). When i tilted the light back for the first time it wouldnt go back down, so i had to take it off but i couldnt see any prob I had to use excessive force to get it back down but it seemed to loosen up after a while of opening and closing it.

Now the question........When I open mine, it just seems to balance in a vertical position (90 degrees) and if you want to open it at a lesser angle the unit would just fall closed. Im also worried if the unit falls closed from 90 degrees causing damage! Nothing really seems to click to hold it in an open position.....Is this the same for you  :?: 

If you are doing maintenance and the light is at 90 degrees shining in your face and not shining on the job in hand....poor design or am I doing something wrong?

Thanks, Dave.


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## Calzone (28 Feb 2012)

Curefan,

I do remember your plans, awaiting your journal!!

Re the OT2.  THe legs are a bit flimsy but clearly strong enough to hold the unit.  What is important is making sure the legs are screwed tightly on to your tank.  This means you need two people to put it on (especially at 5 foot), and you need to make sure the legs are vertical - as they move in and out of the light unit on a pole its easy to get this wrong.  Once the unit is on the tank and you are happy the legs are vertical and the poles are as tight into the light unit as poss (this will vary depending on your exact tank width - best way is to check both ends of the light unit for how far back from the front of your tank they are - obviously you want your unti parallel to the front of the tank - not so easy at 5 foot), then you tighten the screws holding the light legs to the tank, doing them a bit each in turn and not one fully then the next.
Once your legs are tightened up, you will find the unit is sturdy.  The 90 deg upright is actually weighted to the back and won't fall down without a push (this is why the legs have to be tight, else it will wobble and might fall).  It also clips nicely back onto the legs every time on its own weight  - you will see the legs are supposed to clip into the raised ridge on the light unit.  If you are not lined and tightened up this won't happen reliably, which is the problem you are having.

When doing maintenance, because your reflectors are good, the light will shine into your face and not the tank.  You can't have it both ways.  Best to turn the lights off IMO to avoid excessive sun tanning and blindness.  Of course this means you need to shine a lamp into your tank from the side if your room is not bright enough.

The Arcadia Plant Pro bulbs are very pink/purple.  Think this is great for plants and definitely highlights your red fish colours, but it does take some getting used to.  With 2 bulbs on, because the pink and white ones are on opposite sides of the luminaire, half your tank is pink and half white, and its noticeable.  When all 4 bulbs are on you don't really see it, though you could light a concert hall with it.  With my tank being so high I get a lot of glare in the room, but the flip side is I can turn my central heating down...... )


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## Calzone (28 Feb 2012)

Antipofish said:
			
		

> 20 cardinals will look great.  30 would look better IMO.
> .......
> 
> Bet those harlequins look nice though.  I saw some copper ones yesterday and they were cracking.



I have 6 harlequins and 6 copper harlequins.  But the coppers are mostly tiny so far.  I got 7 for a fiver with the baby platy credit.  When they grow up (assuming they make it) it will look fab.  When they school, which they do occasionally its very nice, especially under the reddish lights.

I'm with you on the cardinals - they just look great.  they're not especially interesting though, so I understand why people think of them as dither fish.  I might get 15 one week, and then another 10-15 a couple of weeks later.

Re RCS predation, I really think with enough cover and moss their ability to reproduce will exceed any apistos ability to eat.  They are outrageous.  Besides I still have 50 or so in the old tank and the betta is too slow to eat any.  So I reckon I'll have a constant factory going.

My plan is to wait a while before getting the more expensive and bottom feeding fish.  Partly to make sure the plants grow in (given the investment in time and money there) and am not growing an algae factory, and partly to mature the environment for them first.  so will likely look at cardinals next, then maybe apistos, leaving corys/BN till later and only decide on gouramis based on tank busy-ness after.


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## Antipofish (28 Feb 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> Antipofish said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sounds like a good plan   Im gonna go ahead with my dwarf chain loach when the tank is more mature based on what you said about cover for the shrimp, but think I will set my second tank up (hark at me ! lol) for the apistos.  Im plannin an 80 x 40 x 30 shallow, as I loved the look of George's so much when I saw it in the flesh.  Its a stunning tank.


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## Calzone (28 Feb 2012)

sounds good.  I would guess that getting shallow to look good is harder, but like all expert things, if it works its stunning.


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## Antipofish (28 Feb 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> sounds good.  I would guess that getting shallow to look good is harder, but like all expert things, if it works its stunning.



One thing I believe will be essential with a shallow tank is open top.  Else theres little point IMO.


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## Calzone (4 Mar 2012)

Quick photo update.

Added 20 cardinals today.  One didnt make it out the bag, somehow got caught up in the plastic.  Looked ok when I let him out and drip acclimatised for 2 hours but lasted about a minute in the main tank.  Also found 1 dried harlequin husk and one dried zebra danio behind the tank.  Perils of open top tanks....   I do have glass covers but these were left off for a day or so in between maintenance.

CO2 going nicely now with the AM1000 fitted.  Drop checker pretty much yellow by half way through the photo period but the fish dont seem bothered.  So am tweaking down just a touch but the needle vale is so hyper sensitive.  Anyway, if the fish are happy....

Starting to get some plants growth now.  Gloos putting out lots of horizontal runners.  HC has spread albeit it still looks a bit yellow.  Stems and crypts "putting on weight".  Java ferns still look ragged after they dried out during planting, but am awaiting new shoots before tidying up.
May even have to do a trim next week!!

Close up of the HC and some RCS.  Dont mind the divider, am hoping the HC will grow over it....






Good growth on the hairgrass.  Probably needs a trim.  Most of this was 2cm long when planted.  Crypt and hygro pinn. behind, and pogo erectus and rotala wallichi to the right at the back.





RHS:













LHS:





Full tank shot:









End on shot:





so 19 baby cardinals in a tank of this size, not enough!!!  Probably needs about 50.  May not go that far though as theyre not fully grown yet.

No algae anywhere I can see, apart from brown diatoms on teh glass.  Will get some otos next weekend though in my experience they're not so good at cleaning the glass.  Hesitant to get catfish yet while the plants are still bedding in.  Ditto amanos, though this is mostly a lack of stock situation in the local shops.

BUmped up photoperiod to 7.5 hours at suggestion of George to address concerns over HC condition and givne I have no algae so far.


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## curefan (7 Mar 2012)

Hi Cal.....
How come you decided to cover up the sand??


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## Calzone (7 Mar 2012)

I didn't.  the slopes are such that with planting and the flow and the fish and the replanting the blasted floaters, the aquasoil has colonised the sandy areas.  I will, at some point, address this.  however, if you've ever tried to pick up aquasoil 60cm down in a tank you will know that its really quite difficult without a scoop of some sort, which I don't have right now.

All in good time.  For the time being, I'm still having to fiddle with plants so until that eases, there' snot much point addressing this.  It does mean that the glosso is basically growing into the sand area mind you.  Something to be fixed.

As an aside, I fixed my colourless drop checker problem by adding 2-3 drops of extra pH solution from my API Master test kit.  As I understand it, this just makes the colour darker but doesn't change the pH (and this CO2 conc) at which the colour changes.


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## Antipofish (7 Mar 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> I didn't.  the slopes are such that with planting and the flow and the fish and the replanting the blasted floaters, the aquasoil has colonised the sandy areas.  I will, at some point, address this.  however, if you've ever tried to pick up aquasoil 60cm down in a tank you will know that its really quite difficult without a scoop of some sort, which I don't have right now.



I had the same problem and used the tubing from an old gravel vac to suck up the bits that were displaced.


----------



## Calzone (10 Mar 2012)

So far so good - think I might even have to start trimming soon!

Some very generous friends bought me 6 very plump otos for my birthday.  They looked to be in great shape - sharp fins, active, plump.  In 12 hours they appear to have cleaned up the diatoms from the back glass completely.  Awesome.  Hopefully I'll be able to keep feeding them with courgette, algae tabs etc.  so far still have all the cardinals from last week looking well.  All harlequins also looking well.  Dozens of baby platies already.  I've not even had floating HC clumps for a few days.  Bonus.

I confess however, that i did have to upgrade my all pond solutions filter.  It simply could not achieve any kind of flow at the head height required with any sensible level of media in there.  So am now in possession of a jbl e1501 greenline feeding eheim installation set spray bar, with purigen and mixed media.  So far so good.  Though I did have to leave the media in there with no flow for 18 hours while I sourced a Europe to uk plug adaptor, as I bought it from zooplus.de - it was cheaper in euros that the uk sites was in pounds.  I reckon it landed at about £100 overall which looks like good value given the £149 list, the media included, the German build, and the 1500 Lph flow for 20W.  

No doubt about it, spray bar flow gives better flow patterns than powerheads......


----------



## Antipofish (10 Mar 2012)

Great choice of filter and great price Nick   I've been saying for ages that the German sites are way cheaper.  What percentage of your back does the spraybar cover ?  On my G6 there are twin outlets.  It comes with two nozzles and two spraybar fitting that are about 10" long.  I have the two spraybar bits joined together on one outlet and a nozzle on the other but the flow out of the nozzle seems wasted because of the restriction to direction.  Actually I can block that nozzle so think I may try that.

So are you running just the one filter ?  I really need to read back through your thread again.  I have lost track a bit recently, but LOVE the amount of work you have put into this.  I hope it rewards you well.  Certainly seems like you are well on the way to a real stunner.


----------



## Antipofish (10 Mar 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> Close up of the AM1000 reactor.  Could not work out how on earth the backplate was supposed to go together or attach to the wall.  So in the end I just shoved two screws into the cabinet wall, slotted them into a couple of holes in the backplate, and hoped they'd hold.



The answer to this is to saw off the top part of the backplate as its designed to hang on the outside of the tank.  This was initially designed as a calcium reactor.  

You will see where there are three round probe holders in the top that join the flat section of the plate.  Saw upwards on the same plane as the flat plate section and it removes that top bit.  Then the backplate screws closer to the wall.  Jim at TGM explained this to me when I bought it.  Course, its not essential.  If you are unsure and want to do it, PM me.


----------



## Antipofish (10 Mar 2012)

mikeappleby said:
			
		

> Co2 from just one circuit is fine - will get round. Just play with it a bit!
> 
> One filter is fine - an external pump is an easy way to increase circulation at a low cost and stays outside the tank so better than a koralia



Mike are there any specific pumps you recommend  ?  I know reefies like their Deltec and Iwakis.  Are these suitable ?


----------



## Antipofish (11 Mar 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> Aquamedic uk certainly won't talk to you unless you are a retailer for some reason.  Worth a try though.


I see you got your part, though AM UK were happy when I called them about getting an extra backplate.  Im expecting a return call on monday.  FYI should you need to remove the tail sections again, use a crescent wrench.  Its a plumbing tool that allows you to adjust the mouth size and a medium one works fine.  You dont have to get expensive Rothenberg ones, just any old cheapo will do the trick.  And to get the bioballs out (I know you already have) but I poked a knife into the flat sections of the bioballs to "skewer" the ball onto the knife, then just pulled it out.  I agree though, it is a P.I.T.A. lol

Just re read the whole thread mate.  Awesome stuff


----------



## Calzone (13 Mar 2012)

NIGHTMARE!!!

Did some pruning tonight and took the opportunity to clean the eheim 2180. It was fairly murky in there though the media was in ok shape.

Anyway, took out the impeller, cleaned that, sprayed with eheim maintenance spray, replaced. Fitted.  Primed. Turned on.  Grunk grunk.  No flow.

Turned off.  Impeller out.  Spray cleaned with hose.  Fitted carefully.  Impeller in (Jesus that magnet is strong). Ceramic shaft in. Cover on.

Still screwed.

Repeat ad nauseam.  Tried putting I the white shaft first, then the impeller over the top. Still nothing..  Manual suggest either impeller or shaft broken.  Both look totally intact to me.  If I put the impeller on the shaft in my hand and spin it, it works fine.  But once in the filter, no go.  I can't believe the motor has gone, and I would say its full of water, at least priming makes no difference even after many pushes.  Can anyone advise?  What does a broken impeller/ shaft look like?  I assume it's obvious?  The impeller is hard to turn once in the casing -you can feel the magnetic resistance.

So, either I have broken one of the bits, or I haven't primed properly, or the motor has gone.  Can't think what else.


Double nightmare because the co2 is running off this filter, and so is the heater.....

After water change tonight the tank is at 20 deg.  Have moved the heater from my small tank as this might help somewhat.

Without co2 I assume I should turn down the lights to 4 hours, and don't feed the fish while I try to fix it?


----------



## Calzone (14 Mar 2012)

Rethe eheim ceramic shaft - the eheim parts book shows them with bushings at either end....  Mine is just a white stick.  No bushings.  Have I inadvertently removed and lost these?  How would they go back on?  Will go ahead a pond buy a replacement in case and hope for the best.


----------



## Alastair (14 Mar 2012)

Hi mate, the bushes are actually tucked inside the cap that screws over the inpellor. 
Make sure when your trying to prime it that the prefilter tray (blue foam) has no water in it at all. Other wis these won't prime I've had this problem many a time. If there is grunts etc and magnetic resistance I doubt the pump head has gone. Try to enpty half the water out of the filter, ensure the prefilter chamber is dry, then switch back in the filter whilst priming at the same time. This should do the trick. If not I have the details for eheim uk that would service the head under warranty for you


----------



## Antipofish (14 Mar 2012)

Alastair said:
			
		

> Hi mate, the bushes are actually tucked inside the cap that screws over the inpellor.
> Make sure when your trying to prime it that the prefilter tray (blue foam) has no water in it at all. Other wis these won't prime I've had this problem many a time. If there is grunts etc and magnetic resistance I doubt the pump head has gone. Try to enpty half the water out of the filter, ensure the prefilter chamber is dry, then switch back in the filter whilst priming at the same time. This should do the trick. If not I have the details for eheim uk that would service the head under warranty for you



Does your impellor shaft have a little rubber hood at both ends too ?  On my G6 (I know its a different filter but thought it was pretty much commonplace in them all) There is a rubber grommit of sorts at both ends to hold the shaft in place.  This rubber part stayed inside the hole that the impellor goes in and I had to hook it out in order to make sure the shaft went back in straight.

Hope you get it sorted.  As Alastair has alluded to above, the prefilter tray having water in can cause a problem with priming and from memory your filter pipes go quite horizontal upon connection to the hose adaptor section.  I would consider even removing ALL the water from your filter and doing a MANUAL prime by sucking in at the spraybar end to get the flow started (make sure there is no water in the return pipe first or you will get a mouthful of tank water as I have done before !).

Good luck, keep us posted.


----------



## Antipofish (14 Mar 2012)

Just as an aside, if you have or can get hold of an in tank diffuser today either for current needs or as a spare in case of problems in the future (which i hope dont arise) then you can feed the CO2 direct into the tank.  Either position the diffusor underneath the intake of the other filter inlet strainer or somewhere that your flow holds it down in the tank.  Useful to have this as a backup.  I can't recal if you had an UP inline atomiser before ?  IF so, connect it up and just plop it in the tank as low as possible (will need to weight it down) and it should do the same thing as a diffusor bar.


----------



## Calzone (14 Mar 2012)

so you guys think that noise is probably an airlock?  Will try as you suggest.

I have no diffuser as I broke the last one trying to pull the tube off it.

Here's hoping it is a priming issue, as I just can't see how it can be broken.  As you say, pretty sure the bushings are still in there.  Need to push the shaft in somewhat firmly to get it in the holes, which I assume are the bushings.

I'm off to try to prime again.   I think you may have a point, as the outlet side filled up partially last time i primed, and this time it hasn't, possibly suiggesting its not properly primed.


----------



## John S (14 Mar 2012)

Try and get your outlet above the water line when you prime it.


----------



## Calzone (14 Mar 2012)

OK.  Turns out it was a priming issue.  When I clicked the outlet head back in and opened the valve, the filter started filling with water.  But unbeknownst to me, it was only filling the prefilter tray (should have known as it didn't go on for 2 minutes like usual, but it was midnight by this point!).  The rest of the filter was empty.

The only way to fix this is to press down the priming button immediately you open the valve.  Other wise the prefilter fills and before you know it priming doesnt work.  This is only the case because my inlet hoses were still full of water.  IF they were empty, the priming button would have worked.

Jeez.  Thanks for your advice chaps.  Here's hoping my bacteria survived the night intact (though the latest I've read suggests these babies are more resilient than we think.), and the fish didnt catch a cold from a night at 20-21 deg.

As an aisde, cleaning the filter didnt improve flow.  Which I think means my hoses need cleaning.  Hate that job.


----------



## Antipofish (14 Mar 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> OK.  Turns out it was a priming issue.  When I clicked the outlet head back in and opened the valve, the filter started filling with water.  But unbeknownst to me, it was only filling the prefilter tray (should have known as it didn't go on for 2 minutes like usual, but it was midnight by this point!).  The rest of the filter was empty.
> 
> The only way to fix this is to press down the priming button immediately you open the valve.  Other wise the prefilter fills and before you know it priming doesnt work.  This is only the case because my inlet hoses were still full of water.  IF they were empty, the priming button would have worked.
> 
> ...



Glad its all sorted.  Blardy filters eh !? I would do ammonia and nitrite tests every 12 hours for 48 hours personally just to keep an eye in case of delayed die off.  But I reckon you should be OK.  If flow is an issue, given the level of filtration you have and the quality of media (I dont care, I STILL believe not all media was made the same ! lol) You could consider removing some of it in a few days once you are sure your bio filtration has not been affected.

Do dirty pipes really reduce flow that much ?  I have not cleaned mine since the tank started.


----------



## Calzone (14 Mar 2012)

Re flow,  I think ditry pipes do reduce flow a lot.  Especially when they're 1.3 m long like mine - last time I cleaned them it made a lot difference.  And all I can say is I have a clean filter, and its flow is probably less than half what it was 6 weeks ago.  Nothing else changed.....   Figure its the pipes.  Still only one way to find out.  The flow indicator window itself is dirty enough I can't see where the float is - which tells you something.


----------



## Antipofish (14 Mar 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> Re flow,  I think ditry pipes do reduce flow a lot.  Especially when they're 1.3 m long like mine - last time I cleaned them it made a lot difference.  And all I can say is I have a clean filter, and its flow is probably less than half what it was 6 weeks ago.  Nothing else changed.....   Figure its the pipes.  Still only one way to find out.  The flow indicator window itself is dirty enough I can't see where the float is - which tells you something.



Thats interesting.  I may be cleaning my pipes tonight.      IT could be that its that which is reducing my flow too.


----------



## Calzone (14 Mar 2012)

alright, let me know, and dont cock up your priming !!!!!!!!

Although won't be a problem for you as your pipes will by definition be empty.


----------



## Antipofish (14 Mar 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> alright, let me know, and dont cock up your priming !!!!!!!!
> 
> Although won't be a problem for you as your pipes will by definition be empty.



The G6 can still be a bitch to prime if the pipes are not empty though.  I found the earlier advice about keeping the return out of the water makes a big difference though   I will be cleaning the pipes tomorrow and seeing if that has any affect.


----------



## Calzone (18 Mar 2012)

Finally, fixed my problem.  Turns out the small amount of scrunchy I'd put in the AM1000 had got sucked into the outlet, presumably when it drained as it was fine before the maintenance session.  It's invisible down there.  When I opened it was sucked in about half a centimetre but quite densely packed and had clogged with dirt.

 Have now removed it, plumbed back in and all working.  Flow restored to more or less where it was.

So here's a classic example of double jeopardy - its never one thing that goes wrong, these things come in twos and threes.  In my case, cocked up my priming, knocked slightly loose a key part of my filter, and ended up moving a small bit of my setup which caused an invisible blockage, all in a nice little sequence.

Fortunately, no apparent damage to the tank yet.  Looking forward to get co2 back up as felt things were starting to take off.

Only problem I now have is one patch of my HC just won't stay put due to short roots.  Think I will simply replace with cuttings of my stauro and helferi.


----------



## Antipofish (18 Mar 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> Finally, fixed my problem.  Turns out the small amount of scrunchy I'd put in the AM1000 had got sucked into the outlet, presumably when it drained as it was fine before the maintenance session.  It's invisible down there.  When I opened it was sucked in about half a centimetre but quite densely packed and had clogged with dirt.
> 
> Have now removed it, plumbed back in and all working.  Flow restored to more or less where it was.
> 
> ...



Have you taken the scrunchy out now Nick ?  Others seem to think there is no need for anything in there anyway.  What a pain in the a...    But glad its all sorted.  Have you thought of weighting a small bit of netting over the HC for a while ? Just till it gets going...  I have the pleasure of trying a HC carpet myself soon


----------



## Calzone (19 Mar 2012)

I've taken the scrunchy out.  I reckon its not needed.  Plus its just a dirt magnet.

Re the HC, good idea, I might try that one more time before binning the idea.  I also tried replanting various stems which is very awkward in a 60cm deep tank, but the damn things just kept coming right back out, or worse, they'd stay in but dislodge 3 more established stems!!!  There was some blue language.


----------



## darren636 (19 Mar 2012)

i am glad you enjoy planting as much as me  although i do seem to be getting the knack now.


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## Antipofish (19 Mar 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> I've taken the scrunchy out.  I reckon its not needed.  Plus its just a dirt magnet.
> 
> Re the HC, good idea, I might try that one more time before binning the idea.  I also tried replanting various stems which is very awkward in a 60cm deep tank, but the damn things just kept coming right back out, or worse, they'd stay in but dislodge 3 more established stems!!!  There was some blue language.



How far in are you pushing the stems Nick ? I found that I was not pushing mine in enough.  Are you planting two or three stems in at a time also ?


----------



## Aqua sobriquet (19 Mar 2012)

Tanks looking good but I agree about your earlier comments regarding the green/grey Ehiem tubing. Have you thought about using clear Acrylic?


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## Calzone (19 Mar 2012)

Antipofish said:
			
		

> How far in are you pushing the stems Nick ? I found that I was not pushing mine in enough.  Are you planting two or three stems in at a time also ?




If the stems are trimmed from the tops of the plants, I'm removing the first 2-3 sets of leaves, and putting them in 2-3 stems in a bunch about 1-2 inches into the substrate.  The problem is these are smooth stems only about a mm wide, so there's really not much holding them in, and I have enough flow to wave the plants about, so probably the only solution is to hold them down somehow, possibly by wedging them in against the other stems.  The real devils are the hygro polysperma and ludwigia repens are these have big leaves that act like sails in the flow.

I also have trouble with the pogostemon erectus, part of the problem here is the accessibility of where they are planted as its at the back, deep in the tank impeded by the wood.

As an aside, my java ferns, which suffered badly when planting as I'd put then on the wood first, and they dried out, have started to srout new leaves.  and indeed some of the more damaged leaves that I left on have got babies growing on them.  I know on a healthy plants this can be a good sign and in a damaged plants its a sign of distress, but at least is shows they are still alive and ought to recover is give decent conditions.


----------



## Ady34 (19 Mar 2012)

Hi,


			
				Calzone said:
			
		

> The problem is these are smooth stems only about a mm wide, so there's really not much holding them


pop them in at an angle, theyll hold better....... perhaps easier said than done in tight spaces i know, but it definitely improves holding!
Cheerio,
Ady.


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## Antipofish (19 Mar 2012)

Ady34 said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Will they then grow at an angle or rise vertically ?  Nick I dont have a problem with my Hygro it seems to be the one stem that stays in for me.  One thing I found though is that the tweezers I have are quite broad and this can be a problem as when I pull the tweezers out the stem comes out with them.  So I give them a little wiggle and the sand around them starts to infil as I slowly withdraw the tweezers.  This seems to ensure they are a little more secure in the substrate.  DEFFO 2" rather than 1" though, esp with your flow (well the flow you have NOW as opposed to last week, lol)


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## Ady34 (19 Mar 2012)

Antipofish said:
			
		

> Will they then grow at an angle or rise vertically ?



they will then grow vertically.
Cheerio,
Ady.


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## curefan (19 Mar 2012)

Hi Cal...Please help....Im having trouble priming my filter for the first time. Been ages at it and cant get it running and am getting very angry   
When you mention the prefilter, i assume that is the tray with the blue foam?

I seem to have air lock on my 2 intake pipes. I opened the filter and it seems to be full, but i still emptyed the tray with blue foam(prefilter) and tried prime it again but no joy (how do you take the top/head that 4 clamps hold on, off the filter without spilling water everywhere???).

Do you prime it unplugged with both intakes submerged? Is the spray bar over or under water?

Any suggestions?

Thanks, Dave.


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## curefan (19 Mar 2012)

....the only time i get flow from the spray bar is when i hold in prime button!


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## Calzone (19 Mar 2012)

curefan said:
			
		

> ....the only time i get flow from the spray bar is when i hold in prime button!



I have replied in detail to your post in the filters subforum.

Long and short of it - make sure the filter is empty, completely.  Inlets under water, outlet above water with no spraybar fitted.

Open valve and pump the primer as hard and fast as you can.  It can take a lot of effort but will eventually work.

If after all that you just cant get it, your best option is to suck the air out!!  Nightmare I know.  Pretty sure your primer button will work eventually, but its surprisingly a lot of effort first time, almost scarily so.  But you are essentially pressurising 24 litres of bucket.

Re opening without water getting eveywhere:  you can't.  End of discussion.  Invest in towels, or take it outside every time.  Or get some sort of deep large plastic tray.  You can minimise, by lifting it off the filter but holding it over the filter in line until the drips minimise.  then don't tilt it until its above a bucket.

And if you are getting nervous with hundreds of litres of pressurised water around you, dont worry, you are not alone.  That's healthy.  Just take your time and double check.

By the way, i was filling my tank the other while fiddling with something and forgot  - spillage!!  Jesus, that was the fastest I've moved in years.  luckily the water mostly ended up on the carpet and not the plugs.....


----------



## curefan (19 Mar 2012)

....cheers....right, i think i will empty my filter completely and try again as I only empty the pre filter!


----------



## Calzone (19 Mar 2012)

Aqua sobriquet said:
			
		

> Tanks looking good but I agree about your earlier comments regarding the green/grey Ehiem tubing. Have you thought about using clear Acrylic?




I went with Eheim installation set for the spray bars.  Quite like them - smoky grey and very convenient.  On the inlets, they're mostly hidden so far so not a big deal.  I might go installation kits there too as cleaning hoses much easier.....


----------



## curefan (22 Mar 2012)

Hi Cal,
Do you have a link to where you bought the Eheim installation set ?
Not too keen on the green spray bar myself!!


----------



## Calzone (22 Mar 2012)

will send you a pm as dont want to offend the sites' sponsors!! (thought it might have been one of them....)


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## Calzone (2 Apr 2012)

Quick Update...

Been very busy lately at work on away at weekends, been difficult to work on the tank.  Growth is good, think I am finally getting the CO2 back into shape after the last month of trials with the poor flow etc.

Over the weekend, I was away.  Before I went I adjusted the electronic plug timers to slightly shorten the photoperiod.  I am using the ones with LCD screens and setup buttons etc.

However, I made a mistake: I adjusted programme one time on, all good.  I adjusted programme one time off, all good. I then accidentally ended up setting programme 2 time on to midnight.  There's no way obvious to delete this setting once its done.  I didnt notice.  And worse, I didnt set programme 2 time off to 12:01.  So I then went away over the weekend.....

Came back late last night, and noticed one set of lights come back on at midnight, and not turn off.......  so then I sawy what I  had done: my lights come on at 1430, off at 1730.  The second set of lights come on at 1730, then off at 2130.  Then the first set of lights came back on at 2400, AND THEN STAYED ON UNTIL 1730 the next day!!!! 

Oops.

So in case you're wondering, yes, running like this for two days (and note the CO2 still only comes on at 1300 off at 2100) does cause algae.  A lot of algae.  Mainly black hair algae, and some fuzzy black beard algae.  plus a whole lot of green spot algae on the glass.  Plants doing ok, apart from the ones now affected by algae.

So, big water change, scrub the glass.  will get round to physical removal of the BBA and hair algae.  Have obviously changed the photo period and will actually have a much shorter one today until I can clear out the physically removable algae tonight.  And chop down the enormous stems which grew 6 inches over the weekend.

Fish are alright, though another danio committed hari kari last night by jumping out of the tank.  My water level is within a centimetre of the top, and though I have cover glasses, there are 3 inch gaps on each side.  think I will leave at least an inch at the top going forward.


----------



## Ady34 (2 Apr 2012)

at least you know why the algae appeared and can practice eradicating it!
Cheerio,
Ady.


----------



## Calzone (2 Apr 2012)

always look on the bright side of life eh?!!?

true.  Hopefully, fixing the causes that I think I know, should give improvement.  The algae also tells me something.  it only appears on vallis especially where the ends are cut, java fern (which are recovering from drying out during planting), wood and stones.  So this tells me which plants are not entirely happy....  I confess, that I think the vallis are not long for this world: they grow so fast that cutting them is the only viable option, but if they're just going to become algae factories, I may prefer not to have them full stop.


----------



## Antipofish (2 Apr 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> always look on the bright side of life eh?!!?
> 
> true.  Hopefully, fixing the causes that I think I know, should give improvement.  The algae also tells me something.  it only appears on vallis especially where the ends are cut, java fern (which are recovering from drying out during planting), wood and stones.  So this tells me which plants are not entirely happy....  I confess, that I think the vallis are not long for this world: they grow so fast that cutting them is the only viable option, but if they're just going to become algae factories, I may prefer not to have them full stop.



Why not go for Echinodorus Vesuvius or Cryptocoryne Balansae or Aponogeton Crispus instead mate.  More texture to them but still give the height.


----------



## dw1305 (3 Apr 2012)

Hi all,


> I confess, that I think the vallis are not long for this world: they grow so fast that cutting them is the only viable option, but if they're just going to become algae factories, I may prefer not to have them full stop.


 I think you are right, I don't think _Vallis_ responds very well to having its leaf tips cut off. I think you have to prune the whole leaf off at the base to avoid die back. The cut ends will leak all sort of interesting substances,which is probably why they have the algae on them. I find this with Java Fern in some of the tanks, that as the old leaves become tatty they develop Stagshorn on the tatty bits.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Calzone (3 Apr 2012)

Staghorn.... think that's what this is.  Question:  if I remove most of it by hand, will it go away if I get CO2 and flow sorted out and steady, or am I stuck with it?

Re vesuvius - I have some in the tank already.  But its not clear to me that its going to survive.  Most of it has melted, and not entirely sure its going to come back.  Similarly Echi Reni doing nothing much.  I know these plants are hungry but I've never been successful with Echinodorus for some reason.

Think I will remove the vallis eventually, not sure I really like it......


----------



## Antipofish (3 Apr 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> Staghorn.... think that's what this is.  Question:  if I remove most of it by hand, will it go away if I get CO2 and flow sorted out and steady, or am I stuck with it?
> 
> Re vesuvius - I have some in the tank already.  But its not clear to me that its going to survive.  Most of it has melted, and not entirely sure its going to come back.  Similarly Echi Reni doing nothing much.  I know these plants are hungry but I've never been successful with Echinodorus for some reason.
> 
> Think I will remove the vallis eventually, not sure I really like it......



Have you tried putting fert tabs by their roots ?


----------



## Calzone (3 Apr 2012)

in the past yes, but not yet in this tank.  I will do so shortly as obviously need to get stuck in for maintenance soon!


----------



## Calzone (5 Apr 2012)

Discovered tonight that my koralia wasn't running.....   Whipped it out, nothing obvious - turns out its plugged into a two way socket on a timer with the solenoid.  For some reason, no power.  Works ok in a different socket.  How a two way socket with no electronics can break I simply don't understand....

Anyway, another thing to fix.  Getting there.


----------



## Ady34 (5 Apr 2012)

your not having the best run mate, unexplained things like this must be extra frustrating!


----------



## Calzone (6 Apr 2012)

Yes.  But on the other hand things growing, fish happy, new job on the way.....  Could be worse, eh?


----------



## Calzone (11 Apr 2012)

*Re: Calzone's 120x60x45 optiwhite tank build*

I've noticed a few threads on the forum recently discussing problems getting consistent CO2 with the AM1000 reactor.  I confess I am finding the same problems.  As you can read in this journal, I had a problem with flow and leaking, which turned out to be due to my small amount of scrunchy getting sucked into the outlet.  I removed it and things have been fine since.  However, I have found I struggle to get lime green or yellow and the tank is showing signs of inconsistent CO2.  I think this is because with the 2180 flow being above the rating for the am1000, the co2 in the reactor occasionally gets blown out before dissolving and I just dont get the concentration up no matter how much more co2 I pump in.

So am now thinking I will put back the scrunchy, but with a small amount of rigid large gap mesh covering the outlet to stop it getting sucked in.  the mesh seemed to help hold the co2 bubbles in the reactor until they dissolved.

Tank otherwise doing ok, though carpetting plants definitely look like they are having co2 problems.  Anubia is flowering.....


----------



## Calzone (11 Apr 2012)

Update with pics:

Here's the latest full tank shot:






End on shot:





All in all the growth has been substantial from the start.  I haven't really done enough pruning except the manic stems at the back (largely hygro polysperman and myriophyllum matogrossense).  Also, if you look closer you can see that things look a bit less healthy, particularly at the substrate level than they did   - legacy of the CO2 problems I've been having.  

For example, here's a few older shots showing the HC  and tank before the start of my problems:













And here's a few current close ups, where particularly you can see the glosso is very leggy and yellow, and just doesn't look happy.









Assuming I can get my CO2 improved and flow going better (now have the koralias going more effectively, so think flow improved - now just need to sort out reactor), how to fix the glosso?  a BIG trim?  do I need to leave leaves on the plants?  Do I need to replant?

Here's a close up of the algae (BBA, staghorn) growing on some weeping moss.  Shall physically remove then hope that fixing the flow/CO2 will sort out the rest.





It isn't all bad.  Growth on the crypts is great, the anubia is flowering and the araguia looks in good shape.
Hygrophila Araguia





Anubia flower (apologies for the focus, seems the new macro lens autofocus is poor handheld, but manual focusing not great when your eyes are bad like mine either!!)





Anyway, shot of the left hand side, with decent growth on the apo. Crispus red:





Friendly mummy platy:




Compare to the old shot of the RHS of the tank:





And some fish, waiting on dinner:





Cheers


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## Antipofish (11 Apr 2012)

All in all Nick, I think its going pretty bl**dy well mate!  A flowering Anubias.  Great stuff   Re the glosso.  If you are willing to take the bull by the horns, I would hazard a guess that chopping it right down would stimulate some good regrowth.  I guess you need to ask "If I may end up ripping it out anyway, why not give the plant an ultimatum !?" : grow or burn ! LOL  But seriously, from some of the threads on here from the like of Tom and Mark and Spyder et al, the harsher you cut back the stronger the regrowth.


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## Calzone (11 Apr 2012)

Once am more confident I've addressed what seems to still be problematical Co2, I think I will.  But clearly, I don't want to chop through the stems right?  And these are mostly an inch above the substrate, so do I just them back into the soil?


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## Antipofish (11 Apr 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> Once am more confident I've addressed what seems to still be problematical Co2, I think I will.  But clearly, I don't want to chop through the stems right?  And these are mostly an inch above the substrate, so do I just them back into the soil?



Well I am hoping someone else will confirm (or refute) but I would say "down to close to substrate".  Don't take my word for it though. I am sure Clive or someone will answer that properly


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## Calzone (13 Apr 2012)

Tweaked up the co2 last night, with the reactor now containing some media to stop the gas getting blown out by the flow, and came home tonight to some pearling in the tank and a nearly yellow drop checker.  Fish ok, though I might assert they are moving less than usual, so am probably at or near the max level.will keep it here and see how things go.  I may start my co2 30-60mins earlier, and finish earlier also, then give it a week.

I note also that the pearling is mainly at the top, not so much at substrate level.  Again, will observe for a while and see if I can draw any conclusions.


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## Antipofish (13 Apr 2012)

Excellent news Nick.  hope this is a turning point   Its only really the CO2 cos the rest of your tank is really pretty awesome IMO


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## Calzone (5 May 2012)

Small update: will follow up with some pics later.
Have mostly cracked the algae problem with stable co2 and patience. Plus frequent 40%water changes. Plus 6 amano shrimp. Plus 2 crossocheilus reticulatus (nice fish).
Also, the stems growth rate is such that they are now shadowing larger areas of the tank which maybe helps with the light/ co2 balance.
My only real problem is getting the glosso to root without spending hours replanting separate strands. That and managing my appetite for more fish. Current stocking 29 cardinals, 5 harlequins, 5 copper 'quins, 2 zebra danios, 6 Otos, 4 platies plus about 10 babies, 1 starlight ancistrus, 2 crossocheilus reticulatus 6 amanos, and about 50 RCS. Sounds a lot, but doesn't look it and the fish look v heathy and happy (tank is hugely overfiltered).

Maintenance on the other hand is time consuming. But worth it.


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## Calzone (16 May 2012)

Aponogeton crispus red - does this flower?  Mine appears to have sprouted a 1cm thick stem which is growing at 3 inches per day...  Expect this will turn into a flower.  The Anubias have two flowers now.  But contrast, the Vesuvius never made it, and the crossocheilus have more or less eaten the rotala wallichi and pogostemon erectus.  On the plus side, algae all gone!


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## Iain Sutherland (19 May 2012)

Calzone said:
			
		

> Aponogeton crispus red - does this flower?  Mine appears to have sprouted a 1cm thick stem which is growing at 3 inches per day...  Expect this will turn into a flower.  The Anubias have two flowers now.  But contrast, the Vesuvius never made it, and the crossocheilus have more or less eaten the rotala wallichi and pogostemon erectus.  On the plus side, algae all gone!



yes mate it does flower, sadly not a very interesting flower.


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## Timms2011 (20 May 2012)

darren636 said:
			
		

> i detest  people using fish to cycle a filter- hence fish-less ... errr... what is going on? i mean lets face it, fish -in cycling is a bad situation for an fish.


I Couldn't agree more, I really don't understand how or why anyone could put any fish or live stock in danger for the sake of cycling their aquarium? It's not as if this is the only way do get the job done. For me it completely goes against the idea of looking after, enjoying and keeping fish.


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## foxfish (20 May 2012)

This comes up quite frequently & I quite agree as I am first & formost a fishkeeper however - dont be surprised to find out that in the aquascaping world, where beatiful planted tanks are the priority, that fish are not!


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