# Whats this algae?



## Jaap (4 Apr 2014)

Algae is starting to form. How do I combat it?


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## Jaap (4 Apr 2014)

The tank is 20L
1. I have lights on for 5 hours 11w
2. CO2 is on 2 hours before lights on and liquid in Drop Checker is yellow since I have CO2 full blast as no livestock in there
3. The tank has been filled with water the past 4 days as before it was DSM
4. EI dosing with dry salts and using teaspoons I fill the tip of the spoon with the dry salt. Even though I am suppose to dose 248 mg based on this (http://calc.petalphile.com/) calculator, I am dosing much more I guess.

Any ideas why this algae has grown in just a few days?


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## Trevor Pleco (4 Apr 2014)

can't quite see mate, but if your are referring to the brown stuff towards the front of the tank on the HC, substrate and glass that looks like diatoms. Not technically an algae and usually caused by high silicates, very common in new setups and nothing to be too alarmed about as  they often disappear within a week or two and with regular regular water changes, otherwise otos and acistrus will quickly sort it out....


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## Mr. Teapot (4 Apr 2014)

Picture is a bit fuzzy but is it the dark green on the HC? If it is, could be Cyanobacteria (BGA). Could have been growing just below the substrate when you did your dry start. If it is BGA, It has a very distinctive earthy smell.


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## Trevor Pleco (4 Apr 2014)

Yeah just saw that as well, that is definitely GBA as you say, also not an algae perhaps treat with Eryhromycin, an antibiotic, before it spirals out of control..


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## Mr. Teapot (4 Apr 2014)

You wouldn't be able to buy this in the UK for one really good reason.


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## ceg4048 (4 Apr 2014)

Trevor Pleco said:


> looks like diatoms. Not technically an algae


Diatoms are algae. There are over 10,000 species of them.
BGA is not algae. It is Bacteria.



Trevor Pleco said:


> and usually caused by high silicates


The appearance of Diatoms has absolutely nothing to do with silicates in the water.



Jaap said:


> Algae is starting to form. How do I combat it?


Not the best photo, but it does appear to be BGA. Clean your filter and add more KNO3. BGA is due to any combination of dirty filters, poor NO3 and poor flow.
The dosing numbers are to be dosed 3 times a week, just in case that was missed.


Cheers,


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## Sacha (5 Apr 2014)

> the appearance of Diatoms has absolutely nothing to do with silicates in the water.



I've seen this on this forum a couple of times, and I have to put it right. 

Diatoms' cell walls are made up of silica. Without available silica, they can't rebuild their cell walls, and they can't multiply. 

Clive, you're a smart guy, I know these papers won't be beyond you.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16193051/

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v397/n6719/abs/397508a0.html

It's pretty clear that diatoms thrive on silica. The more silica there is, the faster they grow.


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## Sacha (5 Apr 2014)

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...sCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

"Diatom growth depends on silicate availability, in addition to nitrate and phosphate, but northern Atlantic waters are richer in nitrate than silicate. Following the spring stratification, diatoms are the first phytoplankton to bloom. Once silicate is exhausted, diatom blooms subside in a major export event. Here we show that, with nitrate still available for new production, the diatom bloom is prolonged where there is a periodic supply of new silicate: specifically, diatoms thrive by 'mining' deep-water silicate brought to the surface by an unstable ocean front"

"As diatoms have an absolute requirement for silicon (as silicic acid)3, its supply into the photic zone — largely by silica dissolution and upwelling — controls diatom production (and consequently the biological uptake of atmospheric CO2 by the ocean) over vast oceanic areas"

"Silicon is a major limiting nutrient for diatom growth and hence is a controlling factor in primary productivity."

There are loads of papers on exactly this subject, a quick Google brought these up.


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## Jaap (5 Apr 2014)

Cheers guys,

Yes indeed it is BGA cyanobacteria. I have added more KNO3 to my dosing 3 times a week. CO2 levels are quite high already and I am not that sure about flow yet.

Should I wait and see now that I have increased KNO3 or should I do something else as well?

P.S: the filter is clean as all material inside is brand new.

Thanks

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## Mr. Teapot (5 Apr 2014)

Diatom argument discussion aside, siphon as much algae out as you can at water change. In addition to Clive's advice, you could also syringe some excel directly on it. I managed to grow an impressive carpet of BGA in an early version of my tank. Really horrible stuff!


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## Sacha (5 Apr 2014)

It's the worst type of "algae"/ bacteria in my opinion. I've had every type of algae over the years, and BGA was the only one that literally would not die. I eventually did a full tank re- scape (drained the tank and cleaned it thoroughly, filled it up again). 

The best thing you can use to combat it is a combination of three treatments. 

Easy life "blue exit". A two week treatment (dosing daily) which gives great results. 

In combination with hydrogen peroxide. Every day, turn the filters all off. Then syringe some H2O2 (maximum amount 2 ml per US gallon of tank water) directly onto the cyano. Leave the filters off for 30 mins. After 10 mins the algae will start to fizz and bubble and eventually it will turn red (as it dies). Then it will die and the fish will eat it. 

Before you turn the filters back on, spot dose some Glute (easycarbo/ excel as has been advised). 

This three- pronged attack is your best chance at killing it.


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## petn (5 Apr 2014)

I had cyanobacteria when started a new tank. Started adding KNO3 every day, increased flow withing the tank and it was over in two weeks. good luck

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## ceg4048 (5 Apr 2014)

Sacha said:


> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...sCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false
> 
> "Diatom growth depends on silicate availability, in addition to nitrate and phosphate, but northern Atlantic waters are richer in nitrate than silicate. Following the spring stratification, diatoms are the first phytoplankton to bloom. Once silicate is exhausted, diatom blooms subside in a major export event. Here we show that, with nitrate still available for new production, the diatom bloom is prolonged where there is a periodic supply of new silicate: specifically, diatoms thrive by 'mining' deep-water silicate brought to the surface by an unstable ocean front"
> 
> ...


Yes, unfortunately the conclusions that silicates are responsible for the blooms are illogical. All of them. Whether or not silicon is an absolute requirement is completely irrelevant.
Have you considered that the reason BGA is green is because the chlorophyll molecules in their system is mostly Nitrogen? Yet, when you add a Nitrogen salt, such as KNO3 the BGA goes away.
Just because diatoms use silicon products to build their frustules it does not automatically mean that the existence of silicon products in the water will trigger a diatom bloom.
You need to meditate on that because it's exactly the same case for all other algal forms. They all use and gather nutrients, yet we can add loads of nutrients to the water column and not suffer algal blooms. Algae also use CO2. They love CO2, because they are plants and all plants love CO2, but if CO2 is added correctly there are no CO2 related algal blooms. When CO2 is add incorrectly it affects plants negatively.
Algal blooms therefore are a response mechanism of the algal spores to the condition of the plants. The spores do not care whether there are silicates, or nutrients, or CO2 in the water. They primarily care about the environmental conditions and the behavior of the plants in response to those conditions because they are predatory in this context.

Nutrients don't cause algae. 

When you truly believe that, only then will your tanks be algae free.

Cheers,[DOUBLEPOST=1396731784][/DOUBLEPOST]





Jaap said:


> Should I wait and see now that I have increased KNO3 or should I do something else as well?


If it's possible to obscure the lighting somehow then that would be a good thing to do.

Cheers,


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## Sacha (5 Apr 2014)

Clive, 
That's interesting you say that. Although it's never explicitly mentioned in any of those papers, I got the impression that where there is no silica, diatoms are unable to build a frustule? So if we eliminate silica from our tank then the diatoms will literally starve to death.


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## Jaap (5 Apr 2014)

Clive do you mean I should stop lighting the tank and cover it with something to cause complete darknes? For how long?

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## ceg4048 (5 Apr 2014)

No, not necessarily. You can cover the surface with floating plants or just cheesecloth across the top to obscure the light a little. Whenever you have an algae problem the first step is always to use less light, because that is the root cause. You don't have to do a blackout. When you flood a tank it causes trauma. You may have more light than you bargained for. The rest of the HC looks good, so I assume flow and CO2 are somewhat adequate. It may be just a localized problem, but temporarily reducing the light intensity always helps.

Cheers,[DOUBLEPOST=1396732818][/DOUBLEPOST]





Sacha said:


> Clive,
> That's interesting you say that. Although it's never explicitly mentioned in any of those papers, I got the impression that where there is no silica, diatoms are unable to build a frustule? So if we eliminate silica from our tank then the diatoms will literally starve to death.


Well the papers are not talking about a tank, which has different dynamics than other systems. This is a synthetic system, with natural processes, but synthetic nonetheless. 
You are also automatically assuming that there are no silicates in tanks that do not have diatom blooms. What is the origin of these silicates? Does the source suddenly dry up? Sand, and clay are made of silicon. Silicates are also in tap water. If these sources are constant why doesn't everyone have diatoms all the time?

Cheers,


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## Trevor Pleco (6 Apr 2014)

Mr. Teapot said:


> You wouldn't be able to buy this in the UK for one really good reason.


Yeah not available here over the counter either, but you just need to find an aquarist friendly pharmacist at the dispensary..

Presumably an established seeded tank handles the diatoms better when they arrive in your tap water, just speaking from my own experiences..as have seldom found them in a mature tank ?

BGA under the substrate in no flow areas seem pretty common especially with ADA. However  it's relatively controllable or removed with slipping in a credit card, but when it starts on the surface that's another matter and can quickly overcome everything.. spot dosing with diluted Eryhromycin with a syringe usually does the trick, but use in moderation so you don't end up killing your bacteria in your filter..


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## Mr. Teapot (6 Apr 2014)

Trevor Pleco said:


> you just need to find an aquarist friendly pharmacist at the dispensary



Dosing a fish tank with antibiotics to rid it of BGA is pretty irresponsible. Ultimately the water from your tank ends up in our sewers, rivers and drinking water and from there contributes to the ever increasing problem of antibiotic resistance. I very much doubt you could ever find a pharmacist in the UK willing to sell you this medicine even if he was "aquarist friendly".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibiotic_misuse
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibiotic_resistance


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## Trevor Pleco (6 Apr 2014)

The minuscule dosage we are talking about say two or three capsules diluted in a 760L tank and then water changed into the garden or my pot plants make your 'irresponsible' comment suggestion non sensical in my book !   I'm sure you pour far more potential dangerous domestic cleaning chemicals down the drain daily.


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## Mr. Teapot (7 Apr 2014)

It isn't just the drug residue which is the cause of the increase in antibiotic resistance. Your tank will contain a multitude of potentially dangerous bacteria such as _*Pseudomonas aeruginosa.*_Those bacteria will now contain a mutation that allows them to survive and to reproduce even when exposed to Eryhromycin. They will pass this trait to their offspring, which leads to the evolution of a fully resistant colony. It's the low doses, not enough to kill the colony, which causes the problem.


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## dw1305 (7 Apr 2014)

Hi all, 





Sacha said:


> I got the impression that where there is no silica, diatoms are unable to build a frustule? So if we eliminate silica from our tank then the diatoms will literally starve to death.


 The frustule is built from silicon (Si), but the Diatom can only extract the silicon from "orthosilicic acid" (H4SiO4), and these silicic acids are formed by the acidification of silicate salts (such as sodium silicate) in aqueous solution.

In the case of silicon it is inert when it is in the structural form of silicon oxides or "silica". Silicon dioxide (SiO2) is "quartz", one of the hardest naturally occurring minerals and a major constituent of rocks that are, in some cases, billions of years old. It isn't only the quartz in sand and rocks that builds up in large amounts because of the combination of hardness and insolubility, the diatom frustules themselves built up in huge layers to form the Moler clay that is used for "Tesco lightweight cat litter", and as a substrate in many of our tanks.

Having said all that Diatoms are actually incredibly good at extracting silica from water, and realistically it is almost impossible to get the level low enough to become a factor. There is an explanation here:
<http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/combining-chemical-filtration-media.20015/>.

You can think of silicon as a bit like nitrogen, when nitrogen is as a gas molecule (N2) it is inert, but if you can add enough energy to split the extremely strong triple bond between atoms, the nitrogen atoms are then highly reactive and can form a whole range of compounds.  





Mr. Teapot said:


> It isn't just the drug residue which is the cause of the increase in antibiotic resistance. Your tank will contain a multitude of potentially dangerous bacteria such as Pseudomonas aeruginosa.Those bacteria will now contain a mutation that allows them to survive and to reproduce even when exposed to Eryhromycin. They will pass this trait to their offspring, which leads to the evolution of a fully resistant colony. It's the low doses, not enough to kill the colony, which causes the problem


 That is the one. Have a look at: <http://www.wired.com/2011/11/running-antibiotics-europe/#more-86894>.

cheers Darrel


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## Jaap (7 Apr 2014)

If I add excel direcrly on the algae will it kill it?

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## Trevor Pleco (7 Apr 2014)

Mr. Teapot said:


> It isn't just the drug residue which is the cause of the increase in antibiotic resistance. Your tank will contain a multitude of potentially dangerous bacteria such as _*Pseudomonas aeruginosa.*_Those bacteria will now contain a mutation that allows them to survive and to reproduce even when exposed to Eryhromycin. They will pass this trait to their offspring, which leads to the evolution of a fully resistant colony. It's the low doses, not enough to kill the colony, which causes the problem.



sound like sic fi movie, I'll warn my petunias


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