# All in one solution & Auto dosing with pump



## LondonDragon (29 Jan 2009)

Hi guys,

I have purchased a dosing pump and before I start using it, I want to do some tests for a couple of weeks to make sure the dosing amounts are correct first, using just water.

But I wanted to get started in this all in one solution so will need some help with quantities.

At present I dose:

KNO3 = 1.77 grams 3x a week
K2S04 = 0.8 grams 3x a week
KH2PO4 = 0.5 grams 3x a week
MgSO4 = 4.6 grams 3x a week
Trace from AE = 0.5 3x a week

The pump can dose 50ml in one minute which is my plan, if I were to mix this into 2 liters of water and dose 50ml per day, how would I work out the quantities I need of each for the 2 liter mixture??

Also I know I need E300 Ascorbic Acid and E202 Potassium Sorbate, how much would I need of these two aswell??

I also plan to place an air stone at the bottom of the bottle and 5 minutes before dosing I will run it for 2 minutes to mix the contents properly before dosing.

Other question is could I mix EasyCarbo in this solution? I dose at present 5ml per day or 10 ml every couple of days. If so what quantity would I need?


...:: Edit Start::...

My calculations for EI are made using NutriCalc which you Windows users can download here: http://www.cherniaksoftware.com/homepag ... riCalc.exe

In my final solution I added an extra 20% on top of what is recommended by NutriCalc. This was suggested to me by Matt Holbrook-Bull when I first joined the forum and works a treat for me.

...:: Edit End::...

Many thanks
Paulo


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## JamesC (29 Jan 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution*

OK, you have 2,000ml and dose 50ml per time. So that's 2,000/50 = 40 doses.

So the amount you need to mix up in the 2 litres for a daily dose is:
KNO3 = (1.77x40x3)/7 = 30.3g
K2S04 = (0.8x40x3)/7 = 13.7g
KH2PO4 = (0.5x40x3)/7 = 8.6g
MgSO4 = (4.6x40x3)/7 = 78.9g
Trace from AE = (0.5x40x3)/7 = 8.6g

For the Ascorbic I use 0.5g in 500ml, so for 2,000ml you would need 0.5x4 = 2g
For the Pot Sorbate I use 0.2g in 500ml, so for 2,000ml you would need 0.2x4 = 0.8g or 1g is near enough.

These two figures are a guess only. I have tended to add a bit more as I use measuring spoons as it's easier with the small amounts.

With regard to easy carbo I haven't got a clue, but I'd guess you can't do it. Once dosed in the tank it has fairly quick half life of several hours, so possibly if added to the dosing solution it could also start to break down. But if you did want to test it then if you normally dose 5ml daily you'd need to add 5x40 = 200ml to the 2 litre solution.

Hopefully my maths are correct.
James


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## LondonDragon (29 Jan 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution*

Thanks mate, I will check calculations and see, I have to dose EC manually for now then.

I guess these two products will do??

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Homebrew-Fermenta ... 240%3A1318

and 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/100g-Pure-Ascorbi ... 240%3A1318

Thanks


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## JamesC (29 Jan 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution*

Yep, both look good.

James


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## LondonDragon (29 Jan 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution*



			
				JamesC said:
			
		

> Yep, both look good.
> James



Thanks James


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## LondonDragon (29 Jan 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution*

Just another question, does the container have to be air tight? thanks


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## JamesC (29 Jan 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution*

Probably not. Best to keep it in the dark though.

James


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## BINKSY1973 (29 Jan 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution*



			
				JamesC said:
			
		

> KNO3 = (1.77x40x3)/7 = 30.3g
> K2S04 = (0.8x40x3)/7 = 13.7g
> KH2PO4 = (0.5x40x3)/7 = 8.6g
> MgSO4 = (4.6x40x3)/7 = 78.9g
> Trace from AE = (0.5x40x3)/7 = 8.6g



James,

        Out of interest may i ask where these values come from?

        I realise the 40 is for 40 doses, but cannot make sense of the others.   

         Cheers Gordon.


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## YzemaN (29 Jan 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution*



			
				BINKSY1973 said:
			
		

> JamesC said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



For a tank the size of LD's you would "normally" dose 1.77g of KNO3, three times a week, but since LD is dosing daily you take the usual dose (1.77g) times 3, which gives you the weekly dose and divide it by the number of days per week (7).
I write "normally" as EI needs to be tweaked to fit your specific setup once you've run the tank for a few weeks on the amount suggested in the EI article.


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## BINKSY1973 (29 Jan 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution*

Thanks for clearing that up. Im sure others will find that useful too.

Cheers Gordon.


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## LondonDragon (29 Jan 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution*

After doing some tests with the pump this evening, it actually does 40ml per minute and not 50ml. I have done severall 5 minute tests and it always doses 200ml acurately.
So I need to change my misture a little, instead of 2 liters I am going to use 1.4 liters for 35 doses. So like this I create a solution once a month. 

So see if I get this right:

1,400ml and dose 40ml per time. So that's 1,400/40 = 35 doses.

So daily dose using JamesC calculations:
KNO3 = (1.77x35x3)/7 = 26.6g
K2S04 = (0.8x35x3)/7 = 12g
KH2PO4 = (0.5x35x3)/7 = 7.5g
MgSO4 = (4.6x35x3)/7 = 69g
Trace from AE = (0.5x35x3)/7 = 7.5g

Ascorbic 0.5x3 = 1.5g
Sorbate 0.2x3 = 0.6g 

Sounds about right I guess???

Also about the container being sealed is it a problem if its not air tight? Will it loose its strenght?
Cheers


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## Superman (29 Jan 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution*

I'll be really interested in to see how this goes on.
I'd love to auto dose the ferts.
Where do you expect to drop the solution into? Would you pump it into the filter?


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## BINKSY1973 (29 Jan 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution*



			
				LondonDragon said:
			
		

> Also about the container being sealed is it a problem if its not air tight? Will it loose its strenght?



I believe a few people keep their solutions in the 500ml pop bottles.

So why not use one of the 2l bottles, drill two holes for your lines to go through in the top (two as your planning on using an air pump too) and if needs be seal them up.

Just a thought.

Cheers Gordon.


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## LondonDragon (29 Jan 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution*



			
				Superman said:
			
		

> I'll be really interested in to see how this goes on.
> I'd love to auto dose the ferts.
> Where do you expect to drop the solution into? Would you pump it into the filter?


I will make a journal out of it here, I just planted glosso too for this reason, so I have some fast demanding plant in there so that I can see the effects of the auto dosing.
I would drip the solution in a region with lots of flow so it will get spread around the tank quicker, maybe just before lights on. 



			
				BINKSY1973 said:
			
		

> I believe a few people keep their solutions in the 500ml pop bottles.
> So why not use one of the 2l bottles, drill two holes for your lines to go through in the top (two as your planning on using an air pump too) and if needs be seal them up.
> Just a thought.
> Cheers Gordon.


The thing is if I seal it and pump air into it to mix it up the air must escape somewhere, maybe silicone a one way valve in the bottle too?? but when the pump operated and removes the mixture again air needs to come into the bottle I guess??
Hmm this is getting complicated LOL
Maybe two valves, one in and one out??


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## BINKSY1973 (29 Jan 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution*



			
				LondonDragon said:
			
		

> The thing is if I seal it and pump air into it to mix it up the air must escape somewhere



Hmmm yes sorry was't thinking straight.



			
				LondonDragon said:
			
		

> Maybe two valves, one in and one out??



But if you do this surely you may as well just have a small hole in the top of your container?

Hopefully some one else may have a beter idea.   

Cheers Gordon.


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## BINKSY1973 (30 Jan 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution*

Can i just ask i have got all the things together now to mix my all in one solution apart from my Pottassium Sulphate.

The dry ferts came today in the post but one bag missing and a note on the advice slip saying this will follow next week.

My Question is can i make a solution with out the Potassium Sulphate to get me going?

Or am i just being impatient?   

Sorry for the hijack Paulo.

Cheers Gordon.


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## LondonDragon (30 Jan 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution*



			
				BINKSY1973 said:
			
		

> But if you do this surely you may as well just have a small hole in the top of your container?
> Hopefully some one else may have a beter idea.
> Cheers Gordon.


Well I was thinking if there is no pressure to bring something in or out then nothing would pass through I guess!!

Also about the dry ferts, since you ordered it I would rather wait and use the complete set


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## LondonDragon (1 Feb 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution*

After a lot of tests over the last few days it works very well, now I just have to wait for the E300 Ascorbic Acid and E202 Potassium Sorbate to arrive tomorrow or tuesday and then create the all-in-one solution  and start testing with that.
Will be nice to get this right before rescaping the tank, that way I can make mistakes without drastic results.


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## LondonDragon (3 Feb 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution*

Got all the stuff through the post today  so I have everything ready to start with the all-in-one solution.
At the moment I have some spot alguae on my anubias, should I increase the dosage quantities?


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## LondonDragon (4 Feb 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution*

increased quantities by 20% and started auto dosing from today  now just have to keep an eye on the plants and see if they doing well still after a couple of weeks. I will report back on any issues.


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## Superman (4 Feb 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution*



			
				LondonDragon said:
			
		

> Got all the stuff through the post today  so I have everything ready to start with the all-in-one solution.
> At the moment I have some spot alguae on my anubias, should I increase the dosage quantities?



I think that Anubias will always get spot algae when they are older leaves. When this happens I chop the infested leaves to encourage new growth.


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## LondonDragon (4 Feb 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution*



			
				Superman said:
			
		

> I think that Anubias will always get spot algae when they are older leaves. When this happens I chop the infested leaves to encourage new growth.


Yeah they tend to do that, I keep chopping old ones off and its always the old ones that have the algae, but I have seen some tanks with large quantities of anubias and no shade on them and they are algae free. Shame I can't achieve that thats all. The extra dosage is also to be on the safe side, the bottle will last me a month now before I have to redo it again, so I will see at the end of the month period how things are doing.


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## vauxhallmark (4 Feb 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution*

Yeah, I've seen tanks that look like that, and it drives me mad - I love Anubias, and I don't like pulling off all the old leaves because you end up with a 4 inch rhizome with 6 leaves at the end! What I do tend to do is cut bits of the rhizome of, keep them in a more shaded tank till they've got leaves, and then put them back in to fill in any gaps. 

I'll start a new thread to ask if anyone has had success keeping Anubius plants algae free - not for a month or two, but in established hi-tek tanks that have been set up for more than 6 months!

Mark


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## YzemaN (4 Feb 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution*



			
				vauxhallmark said:
			
		

> I'll start a new thread to ask if anyone has had success keeping Anubius plants algae free - not for a month or two, but in established hi-tek tanks that have been set up for more than 6 months!


According to James' site you need to increase the phosphate levels. I've read several places (can't where remember now. There's a couple of threads here on UKaps) that people can indeed keep GSA from infesting slow growing leaves this way. I still need to do that myself as I have GSA on all slower growing plants and on the glass.


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## Tony Swinney (5 Feb 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution*

HI LD

Thanks for running the numbers for me earlier   .  I've just done the sums for my tank, but havent any K2SO4 in stock so will have to wait for that   Need some E300 Ascorbic Acid and E202 Potassium Sorbate too.

Cheers

Tony


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## Tony Swinney (6 Feb 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution*

OK , I've found the E300 and E302 on ebay.  Where do you get the K2SO4 though - AE dont stock it ?

Thanks

Tony


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## LondonDragon (6 Feb 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution*



			
				Tonser said:
			
		

> OK , I've found the E300 and E302 on ebay.  Where do you get the K2SO4 though - AE dont stock it ?
> Thanks
> Tony



AE did stock it thats where I got mine from a few weeks ago, could be just out of stock.

I think this is the same thing though: http://www.gardendirect.co.uk/sulphate-of-potash-p-218 hope someone can confirm and a 3kg minimum order!! But then again you have plenty of space for storing stuff


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## TDI-line (6 Feb 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution*

LD, what make and model is your dosing pump?


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## LondonDragon (6 Feb 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution*



			
				TDI-line said:
			
		

> LD, what make and model is your dosing pump?


Its the Aqua Medic SP3000


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## JohnC (6 Feb 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution*



			
				YzemaN said:
			
		

> vauxhallmark said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hi,

My Anubius nana is totally plagued by GSA and it is the only algae visible left in my main tank. I also went straight for the phosphate levels but then after having no sucess with that and finding out the average level of phosphate in my Edinburgh tap water varies between 5.5ppm to 9ppm i looked elsewhere for the issue.

Mine is getting alot better now i've fitted a larger filter and i think will be solved once i sort my CO2 distribution with Ed's DIY reactor. So if your happy the phosphates are fine then look to your flow and CO2.

Best Regards,

John


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## BINKSY1973 (6 Feb 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution*



			
				Tonser said:
			
		

> Where do you get the K2SO4 though - AE dont stock it ?



 They are out of stock. Im still waiting for mine, i got all my order apart from this last week.

It still has not arrived so i emailed Richard at AE today and here is the reply i got.

Our suppliers still haven't delivered due to the snow

They're telling us next Wed now.

So i still can't make my solution    Or can i minus the K2SO4?

Hope that helps.

Cheers Gordon.


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## JamesC (6 Feb 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution*

Nearly all garden centre's and even B&Q sell it under the name of sulphate of potash. Not quite as pure as what you get from Aqua Essentials but many people including myself have used it without problems.

James


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## BINKSY1973 (6 Feb 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution*

Thanks for that James. Just had a look on line at B&Q and they have it, so off there tomorrow.

http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav/n...ulphate+of+potash&selected=products&x=32&y=16

Good Price too.

Cheers Gordon.


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## Tony Swinney (7 Feb 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution*

Thanks for that Gordon (and James).  I'll get some there today and give the 'all in one' a go.


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## BINKSY1973 (7 Feb 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution*



			
				Tonser said:
			
		

> Thanks for that Gordon (and James). I'll get some there today and give the 'all in one' a go.



Your welcome, more thanks to James though for pointing that one out.

Off to B&Q in a bit myself to get some too. May pop to halfords as well, as its right next door to B&Q and get some      de-ionised water, or is boiled water from the kettle just as good? Once it has cooled of course.

Cheers Gordon.


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## Antoni (8 Feb 2009)

*Can we use Ð•211(Sodium benzoat ) instead of Potassium sorbat*

As I want to make my DIY liquid fertilizer and I like the James receipt I would like to ask, is it possible to use Ð•211(Sodium benzoat ) instead of Potassium sorbate? The reason is that I couldn't find sorbat anywhere.
Kind regards


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## LondonDragon (8 Feb 2009)

*Re: Can we use Ð•211(Sodium benzoat ) instead of Potassium sorbat*



			
				Antoni Dimitrov said:
			
		

> As I want to make my DIY liquid fertilizer and I like the James receipt I would like to ask, is it possible to use Ð•211(Sodium benzoat ) instead of Potassium sorbate? The reason is that I couldn't find sorbat anywhere.
> Kind regards


Not sure but you can buy Potassium sorbate on ebay!!


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## JamesC (8 Feb 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution*

If you can't find potassium sorbate then E218 methyl parabens will also work. Potassium sorbate should be fairly easy to find as it's used in wine making I think.

James


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## Antoni (8 Feb 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution*

Thank you guys!
I will check if I can find any sorbat over here!

Regards


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## JamesC (8 Feb 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution*

Potassium sorbate is a mould inhibitor so you may find that you can get away with not using it. Easy way to tell is to make a solution up and leave it for a while. If you find a precipitate is formed or the solution goes hazy then you know that the phosphate is reacting with any free iron. The ascorbic acid is more important as it creates the correct pH and also is an anti oxidant. Ascorbic acid will also bond with iron to create an iron chelate so possibly also preventing any reaction with phosphate.

James


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## LondonDragon (14 Feb 2009)

*Re: Help with all in one solution & Auto dosing with pump*

Just a quick update, the auto dosing is going great, now with a fixed amount and dosed everyday at the same hour 30 minutes before lights on the tank is actually doing better than before. I am noticed great growth with the plants, never seen the L. Aromatica do so well for a long time.
Makes life so much easier too as I don't have to try and remember to dose in the mornings, has I have different start times a few times I would forget to dose. So far so good, now looking for another pump to dose easycarbo. I haven't been dosing EasyCarbo at all to see the effect on the tank and I haven't actually noticed any differences, so I will not dose and see what happens.


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## StevenA (14 Feb 2009)

Any pictures of how you've got it set up LD?


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## LondonDragon (17 Feb 2009)

Tourney said:
			
		

> Any pictures of how you've got it set up LD?



Here is my holding bottle. Air line comes in through the bottom of the bottle. Cone shape helps mix the solution better so it doesn't settle anywhere. No air stone just the inline with a non-return valve so the solution doesn't go back into the pump. Hole at the top of the bottle for filling with a funnel and for dosing tube.







Hope this helps


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## StevenA (17 Feb 2009)

Sorry LD I seem to be having a brain fade tonight    The airline tube goes into the bottle with the solution through the cap at the bottom? But there is no air stone on the end, its just the tube?  :?


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## LondonDragon (17 Feb 2009)

Tourney said:
			
		

> Sorry LD I seem to be having a brain fade tonight    The airline tube goes into the bottle with the solution through the cap at the bottom? But there is no air stone on the end, its just the tube?  :?


Yeah thats it, just the tube  siliconed into the cap.


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## LondonDragon (25 Feb 2009)

For those interested I used the calculator in Matt's signature: http://www.cherniaksoftware.com/homepag ... riCalc.exe 

Its a windows software so you Mac users have to find an alternative or ask and I will run it for you.

I took the doses recommended by the calculator and added an extra 20% on top. Seems to be working fine at the moment for me


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## plantbrain (26 Feb 2009)

LD spend some more time tweaking and modifying CO2 and flow, cleaning filters more often etc.
See how things respond.

You can rule out nutrients easily now, and the light is generally unchanged.

So not as much left for you to modify things and see responses due to CO2.

Regard, 
Tom Barr


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## LondonDragon (26 Feb 2009)

plantbrain said:
			
		

> LD spend some more time tweaking and modifying CO2 and flow, cleaning filters more often etc.
> See how things respond.
> You can rule out nutrients easily now, and the light is generally unchanged.
> So not as much left for you to modify things and see responses due to CO2.
> ...


Thanks Tom, CO2 the next thing is to install an in-line reactor and see the differences on the tank. Flow I am upgrading my Koralia Pump and the maintenance I am always on top of it, I can't remember the last time I had to clean the front glass, never gets any algae on it nowadays, even with some sunlight hitting it from the window.

I am going to try and learn as much as I can at the moment so that I can get things right from the start when I rescape the tank.


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## Antoni (1 Mar 2009)

I have added 5 gr of the trace mix, but the solution became greenish and there was a thin whitish precipitate on the bottom. After a diligently shaking there is no left, but it is still greenish. 

I will give it a go to see how the plants and fishes will react and hope that this will not color the water in tank  :?: 
I just would like to ask, does anybody knows what gives the green color of this mix? Is the amount of 5 gr, are enough for the purpose?
Regards


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## Aeropars (2 Mar 2009)

Its perfectly fine. Tropicas own ferts are green in colour.


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## Antoni (2 Mar 2009)

Thanks!
I have never seen the Tropica's range    I have started using it today, so will keep you informed about the efect!

Kind regards


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## JamesC (2 Mar 2009)

Ferrous iron is green and ferric iron is brown. The Fe-EDTA that is used in the chelator is ferric so is brown in colour. Ascorbic acid can reduce ferric-EDTA to ferrous-EDTA, hence why the solution turns green. I would also suspect that this is why the Tropica TPN+ is green and TPN is brown. I don't know what Tropica add to TPN+ to prevent insoluble iron (III) compounds forming but I'd guess it's very similar to what I have come up with.

 Plants prefer ferrous iron so it is probably better.

James


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## Antoni (2 Mar 2009)

Thank you James,
again you are the man to spread light on that riddle!
Regards


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## Antoni (27 Mar 2009)

I have started using all in one solution on one of my new projects and it seems fine for now  
Regards


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