# building a 1200L nature aquarium with Wild Discus & jungle-nature feel



## aeneas (15 Feb 2021)

Hi from a new member; I've had Discus / Amazon-themed aquariums for 30+ years (basically since childhood), mostly 200-400L low-tech. 
We recently moved to a new house and am now planning my dream aquarium build - a ~1.200L aquarium with a "wild" nature aquascape hopefully catching the atmosphere and concept of something close to Josh Sim's Congo. There will be many technical hurdles to overcome and figure out how to do this project and I look forward to learning and hopefully getting some good tips and guidance from experts here.

I have several initial construction concepts first I need figure out and your help would be greatly appreciated. Overall I would like to (a) keep aesthetics of as clean as possible with minimal intrusion of hoses and devices in the display area (using ADA glass accessories where needed etc.), and (b) design a system that is a quiet at possible - this will be in the main living/reception area so continuous humming sound of filter pump gets really annoying.

1) Dimensions of the tank: 240cm width (covering the wall connecting dining area with the main reception area / living room; with this width, I am considering 65cm depth and 80cm height to give reasonable dimension proportions, but could also do 240x65x70 if lower walls would be easier to fill with scape and avoid too much empty space at the top...?
2) Rimless open top: for such a huge tank & water pressure, I don't know if glass would hold rimless open top design? Any ideas how to calculate?
3) Clean ADA glass style inflows-outflows etc. from the top of the aquarium, or drilled-bottom design? Again, considering the size of the tank and the desired aquascape, I am not sure if drilling the bottom will be possible? 
4) Canister or Sump for filtration? ...one VERY important factor in this decision is not only efficacy for filtration, but also quiet operation; we currently have Eheim Professionel 3 XL for our 400L aqurium and my wife complains that it is much too loud and wants something that would be able to run quieter.

I like the simplicity and ease of use and maintenance of canister (if there is one that can be quiet enough), but worry that I may need to canisters to ensure enough flow for 1.200L and that would raise the noise further. On the other hand, I worry about troubleshooting the sump and all the complexity it brings, but at the same time it would allow me a lot of added flexibility in terms of adding all the other devices incl. CO2, UV, etc., but most importantly, it would allow me an automated water exchange & top-up (e.g. on timer, each day 50L water would be drained from the sump and refilled back; also with a floater, water level would be continously maintained, as I would expect a lot of evaporation in case of open top design.

4) Surface skimming: a nice ADA-style skimmer or an overflow system? ...considerations of aesthetics, noise, functionality...?

There will be many next steps to consider, but this is the first stuff that I need to think about as it pertains to how we actually design/construct the glass housing itself and what technology will/can be used to support it.

Any tips and suggestions at this stage would be very very helpful!!! 

cheers, 
aeneas


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## alto (15 Feb 2021)

Have you seen the aquascapes from this company
(Aquaflora recently posted 240 x 60 x 70cm rimless scape on their FB page)






						Akwarium dekoracyjne - zakładanie, pielęgnacja, aranżacja
					

Zakładanie akwarium dekoracyjne. Ofrujemy zakładanie akwarium dekoracyjnych w domach prywatnych oraz biurach. Piękne akwarium dekoracyjne




					akwarium-dekoracyjne.pl


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## aeneas (15 Feb 2021)

alto said:


> Have you seen the aquascapes from this company
> (Aquaflora recently posted 240 x 60 x 70cm rimless scape on their FB page)
> 
> 
> ...


No, thank you for pointing them out. I did enjoy looking at the many nature aquariums that GreenAqua in Hungary built... but was not familiar with the Polish group - will check them out!


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## sparkyweasel (15 Feb 2021)

@Filip Krupa has a great thread about his 2000 l  tank, you might get some useful hints there;
Link


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## aeneas (17 Feb 2021)

Hey @sparkyweasel , thanks for the link. Lots of good info and experience learned there, but waay to complicated construction for my taste. My current 400L is set-and-forget; just enjoy the views. That one seems to be a continuous maintenance and troubleshooting 
So, this is why I wonder if sump is the right way to go... too much DIY and not enough time to dedicate to thinking all this through. My wife is voting against it - she says it looks too messy 

I'll probably try to go with 2x canisters really thoroughly soundproof the cabinet underneath. Oase 850 looks really nice and has a built in heater and a prefilter chamber that can be cleaned up quickly without any mess... 2x canisters should probably be decent for handling ~1000L if the tank is very well planted with plants doing lots of support of the ecosystem. Alternative is 2x Fluval FX6...


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## aeneas (17 Feb 2021)

to continue on this - with canister filters installed, I was thinking how to automate water top-up as well as do a ~50L water exchange per day. Here is a sketch that I'm playing with: one of the canisters will be linked to two separate solenoid-valve controlled hoses; first one will be timer-controlled and will open just enough to let 50L drain out once per day (e.g. during the night); the other solenoid is controlled by a water level detector in the aquarium - such as Hydor, which turns it on whenever water drops below the required level and then tops up with fresh pretreated water back to required level. This then takes care then of both the evaporation as well as when the other solenoid drains 50L per day.
Tell me what you think of the idea?


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## castle (17 Feb 2021)

Your patience with the text tool impresses me


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## sparkyweasel (17 Feb 2021)

aeneas said:


> My wife is voting against it - she says it looks too messy


That should make the choice easier. It's easier to deal with a different filter system than an angry wife.


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## aeneas (18 Feb 2021)

Here is a sketch I made of how the positioning of the aquarium could look like. I was playing with several dimension options but considering the pressure increase with each cm in height, I am now leaning towards 243x65x70cm (1105L or 293gal) or even 243x65x65cm (1026L or 271gal).
I have a glass sliding door on the lefthand side which limits my hoses/piping at the back only to the rear part of the aquarium. behind the wall is a toilet and so I have drilled through the wall plumbing with fresh pretreated (softened, filtered and de-chlorinated) and heated water as well as a drain pipe going into sewage.


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## Wookii (18 Feb 2021)

aeneas said:


> to continue on this - with canister filters installed, I was thinking how to automate water top-up as well as do a ~50L water exchange per day. Here is a sketch that I'm playing with: one of the canisters will be linked to two separate solenoid-valve controlled hoses; first one will be timer-controlled and will open just enough to let 50L drain out once per day (e.g. during the night); the other solenoid is controlled by a water level detector in the aquarium - such as Hydor, which turns it on whenever water drops below the required level and then tops up with fresh pretreated water back to required level. This then takes care then of both the evaporation as well as when the other solenoid drains 50L per day.
> Tell me what you think of the idea?
> View attachment 163129



I would have your water change loop sperate to your canister filter to be honest.

Having tested a few different ways of doing it I've pretty much settled on having an overflow outlet on the tank, and then a simple but slow pump from the fresh water container up into the tank. Waste water then simply flows out of the overflow to waste, as you add the new water in. It removes some points of failure like the solenoids and level controller, as if you physically restrict the fresh water inflow rate into the tank so that the overflow can never be overwhelmed, you'll never be able to overfill.

I have two tanks running this way with daily automated water changes, and it works a treat.


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## aeneas (18 Feb 2021)

Wookii said:


> I would have your water change loop sperate to your canister filter to be honest.
> 
> Having tested a few different ways of doing it I've pretty much settled on having an overflow outlet on the tank, and then a simple but slow pump from the fresh water container up into the tank. Waste water then simply flows out of the overflow to waste, as you add the new water in. It removes some points of failure like the solenoids and level controller, as if you physically restrict the fresh water inflow rate into the tank so that the overflow can never be overwhelmed, you'll never be able to overfill.
> 
> I have two tanks running this way with daily automated water changes, and it works a treat.


Oh, this also sounds like a great solution. Do you have any image of your set-up posted here in the forum? Would you mind pointing me to the right post so I could check it out? Or if you care to share a photo here. I'd really appreciate! 
Thank you!


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## Wookii (18 Feb 2021)

aeneas said:


> Oh, this also sounds like a great solution. Do you have any image of your set-up posted here in the forum? Would you mind pointing me to the right post so I could check it out? Or if you care to share a photo here. I'd really appreciate!
> Thank you!



My journal is here: Kinabalu

This is an image of my low tech - it's an old tank (60 litres) and not a great photo, but you can see the overflow:





On this tank I have a small 18 litre header tank on a shelf above the tank. This fills with water from the mains (connected to an adjacent bathroom similar to your proposed set-up), an auto-doser add's dechlorinator, and an airstone mixes for an hour or so. I then have a low pressure solenoid on the base of the container which opens, and gravity drains it through 6mm tubing into the tank. Waste water then overflows out of the pictured overflow. That gives me 25% daily water changes.

This is my high tech:





Similar basis for the overflow, but a little more simplified (and white instead of black to suit the white background).

On this tank (100 litres), I have a 28 litre holding tank hidden out of view. That gets filed from an RO unit (with actuated ball valves on timers and with a float valve in the container) 12 hours before water change, and an air stone mixes and aerates it - and the time period allows it to come to room temperature. At water change time a marine grade peristaltic pump draws the water up into the tank, and waste water overflows down the overflow to a waste pipe through the wall and out into to a drain outside. Again roughly 25% daily water change.

Obviously because this system is a slow fill, and without draining before adding the fresh water its more of a dilution system that a straight 1:1 water change (i.e. a small proportion of the water going out the overflow will be the fresh water just added, or added the day before etc), but the fact that is happening daily compensates for that. In this tank, despite quite high stocking, by TDS remains pretty much bang on consistent, suggesting the water change is doing its job, and I'm not getting a steadily increasing organic load.


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## Wookii (18 Feb 2021)

On your tank I would suggest a much larger overflow outlet. I'm not sure what your standard waste pipe sizes are in Slovenia, but if I had your tank in the UK, I'd be using a full size 1 1/2" BSP overflow outlet, to allow faster inflow for the water change.


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## ian_m (18 Feb 2021)

aeneas said:


> to continue on this - with canister filters installed, I was thinking how to automate water top-up as well as do a ~50L water exchange per day. Here is a sketch that I'm playing with: one of the canisters will be linked to two separate solenoid-valve controlled hoses; first one will be timer-controlled and will open just enough to let 50L drain out once per day (e.g. during the night); the other solenoid is controlled by a water level detector in the aquarium - such as Hydor, which turns it on whenever water drops below the required level and then tops up with fresh pretreated water back to required level. This then takes care then of both the evaporation as well as when the other solenoid drains 50L per day.
> Tell me what you think of the idea?
> View attachment 163129


You will have couple of issues immediately straight off with this type of setup.

1. Most liquid solenoid valves are quite small bore, meant for letting reasonable pressure water ie mains @ above say 2 bar, through. Certainly not 16mm diameter, if using 16/22mm piping.
2. Large bore valves are not cheap. Here is a suitable one 1/2" solenoid valve. Bargain at £90.
3. Your outlet valve is running with tank water, I know it is after the filter, but still contains enough detritus to settle in the "dead leg" and block the valve. People trying this with their tanks report issues with valve not turning off 100% due to "muck" collecting in the valve seal.
4. If your incoming solenoid valve fails/leak, you have a flood....
5. If your incoming solenoid valve fails/leak, you have a back syphon route from the tank water to syphon out of the tank into your treated water and associated flood.
6. If your outgoing valve leaks (as it will 100% be guaranteed to with "dirty water") you loose your tank water.
7. All of the above will happen when you are not looking ie at work, on holiday and cause maximal disruption and damage 

The much safer fail safe way to achieve water changes is by having a tank overflow. You pump clean water into your tank, water entering above the water surface, and excess water leaves via the overflow. Just ensure leaves and other plant waste can't block the overflow too much.

If your pump/solenoid fails to on all the time or leaks then excess water just overflows via the overflow. No flood.

Tank water cannot back syphon to your water storage if pump/solenoid fails.

In the end, you may be easing water changes, great, but part of the manual water change process is removing detritus from the tank substrate, wafting the plants to remove "yuck" and generally removing waste. How do you intend to automate that ? (people have done this with power spray bars etc etc, but detritus still collects in places of lower flow).

Below is the typical weekly detritus I syphon out of my 180l tank. How are you intending to remove this ?


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## aeneas (19 Feb 2021)

guys, I've been trying to look more deeply into the sump option. Technically I get it - would allow for much flexibility and my needs. But as far as aesthetics, I was not able to find anything that would be really pleasing to my eyes... I like the "bean animal" concept of a quiet overflow, but most of what i was able to find were really big overflow boxes on the inside of the aquarium, taking lots of space and not looking pretty and all the ready-made are, for some strange reason, made with black acrylic instead of transparent. 
Can anyone point me to a thread / build or a link that would show some nice well designed overflow that is not only functional but also minimalistic and clean-looking (in an ADA sense... clean glass, minimal intrusion into the aquarium etc.)? I'd really appreciate some pointers... I've spent hours googling but I can't find anything that I like in terms of aesthetics...


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## not called Bob (20 Feb 2021)

*its normally black or blue as its not an easy spot to get into and clean, and Coraline algae will soon grow along with loads of other bits of life, making the most of all those food passing by.*
*you would find a big range on a marine site like ultimate reef, there are many ways to get to the end goal and some have some very slimline weirs or there are options like *
*Ultra-Reef Drain for Hole, that is just a screw on bit of plastic into the tank through a drilled back or side*​


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## aeneas (20 Feb 2021)

What I've seen so far, I have 2 options... (a) either make an external overflow box to the right side of the aquarium - small overflow box on the inside, drilled back wall and a bean animal box on the outside; or (b) install an overflow entirely on the inside of the aquarium and set it somewhere at the back to be covered by the roots and plants with the scape design. I've made two sketches of how that could look like. I worry that with option (b) I might need to make it black to cover the piping inside, which will make the whole thing uglier - and will likely need me to paint the entire back wall of the aquarium, which I would not like to do as it would make the entire aquascape even darker and gloomier...
Here are the sketches I'm thinking about:





Any thoughts and recommendations of some really nice overflow designs that hide into the scape well and are as transparent / unnoticeable as possible?


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## Wookii (20 Feb 2021)

For an off the shelf unit, the Eshopps units look pretty good:









						Eclipse L - ESHOPPS
					

FEATURES       New slim design  Template & Holesaw included  Red PVC Pipe included          SPECIFICATIONS     Item#      Dimensions  12" x 3" x 6"    Black Box  12" x 1.25" x 6"    Tank Usage  100-150g




					www.eshopps.com
				






I think @DeepMetropolis uses a smaller Eshopps unit on his tank and so can give you some direct feedback.

On the larger sumped tank that I was planning, I was going to build a bespoke slimline internal weir but also with some bottom draw pipes rather than rely just on the weir.


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## Mr.Shenanagins (20 Feb 2021)

Wookii said:


> For an off the shelf unit, the Eshopps units look pretty good:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have this exact model. Easy setup and looks great, blends right in to the background.


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## DeepMetropolis (20 Feb 2021)

Yes I have it. It works well. However depending on how high you want the water level it might be on the low side for rimless tanks. I modded mind so the water intake is higher but the problem is then that the water falls in the over flow making it noisier.. The back part of the overflow sits a lot lower then the inner part.. You can also cut a piece of the inner part before installation I've seen people do that.. There are other overflows that might be a better option. Besides this there is nothing to complain. You can check my journal about it too..


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## Wookii (20 Feb 2021)

Mr.Shenanagins said:


> I have this exact model. Easy setup and looks great, blends right in to the background.



Just out of personal interest - what is the size of the gap, between the front and back walls of the weir box?


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## DeepMetropolis (20 Feb 2021)

Ooh if I had to buy one again I probably go for something like MODULAR MARINE 3000 gph LOW PROFILE Overflow Box with REMOVABLE WEIR  | eBay this.


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## Mr.Shenanagins (20 Feb 2021)

Wookii said:


> Just out of personal interest - what is the size of the gap, between the front and back walls of the weir box?


Inside diameter is 19mm and outside is 31.75mm


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## Mr.Shenanagins (20 Feb 2021)

DeepMetropolis said:


> Ooh if I had to buy one again I probably go for something like MODULAR MARINE 3000 gph LOW PROFILE Overflow Box with REMOVABLE WEIR  | eBay this.


I agree that’s a fine work of art. But I cannot justify that price that’s so unbelievably marked up it’s criminal.


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## not called Bob (20 Feb 2021)

There's tank builders that build something like that into the glass build, no idea what it does to the costs, think the owner of dd had something like that on his reef.


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## DeepMetropolis (20 Feb 2021)

Mr.Shenanagins said:


> I agree that’s a fine work of art. But I cannot justify that price that’s so unbelievably marked up it’s criminal.


True that was my thought also when I chose the eshopss, but the truth is that is would be a lot more hassle free to quiet it down..


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## Mr.Shenanagins (20 Feb 2021)

DeepMetropolis said:


> True that was my thought also when I chose the eshopss, but the truth is that is would be a lot more hassle free to quiet it down..


Do you have the large/bean animal like I do?


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## Wookii (20 Feb 2021)

Mr.Shenanagins said:


> Do you have the large/bean animal like I do?


😳


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## aeneas (20 Feb 2021)

DeepMetropolis said:


> Yes I have it. It works well. However depending on how high you want the water level it might be on the low side for rimless tanks. I modded mind so the water intake is higher but the problem is then that the water falls in the over flow making it noisier.. The back part of the overflow sits a lot lower then the inner part.. You can also cut a piece of the inner part before installation I've seen people do that.. There are other overflows that might be a better option. Besides this there is nothing to complain. You can check my journal about it too..


That's a good point regarding the size... I read your thread of the main display tank - love the setup; my wife commented she really likes the above-water plants as well. What is the temperature of the water you keep? I may have missed that while reading through it...

Regarding overflow options indeed I might be either needing to do a custom-build or getting one of these black options. Maybe black is not so bad at the end - prevents algae to grow in there and I could hide it with the scape / wood and plants...



DeepMetropolis said:


> Ooh if I had to buy one again I probably go for something like MODULAR MARINE 3000 gph LOW PROFILE Overflow Box with REMOVABLE WEIR  | eBay this.





DeepMetropolis said:


> True that was my thought also when I chose the eshopss, but the truth is that is would be a lot more hassle free to quiet it down..



Eshopss would probably be too small for a 1100L / 290 gal tank. Possibly the Ghost 20" overflow... ?

I do like the design of this Modular Marine one and it seems appropriate size/flow. @DeepMetropolis I wonder why would you consider more hassle free to quiet it down? Please do explain.
...What I saw Ghost makers say is that they are "all black" due to blocking light and preventing algal growth... makes sense. Modular Marine seems to have a transparent top? 
Anyway, please do share your thoughts around this. +/- 100 or 200 dollars doesn't matter to me if I am making something that should last for 10+ years so I am willing to pay the "premium" if this is the best I can get.


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## DeepMetropolis (21 Feb 2021)

aeneas said:


> What is the temperature of the water you keep? I


It's around 24/25c, In the summer it can get hotter sometime 27/28c.


aeneas said:


> Eshopss would probably be too small for a 1100L / 290 gal tank. Possibly the Ghost 20" overflow... ?
> 
> I do like the design of this Modular Marine one and it seems appropriate size/flow. @DeepMetropolis I wonder why would you consider more hassle free to quiet it down? Please do explain.
> ...What I saw Ghost makers say is that they are "all black" due to blocking light and preventing algal growth... makes sense. Modular Marine seems to have a transparent top?


What the problem is is that the outer part sits lower then the innerpart.. So the weir matches that if you want a higher water level you heve to change that and if you do it like me an just higher the weir the water falls like 2cm down making a trickling sound it's not that bad but you hear it. As far as I can tell the ghost and the eshopps both have this.. The modular marine does have the outer and inner box on the same level. As far as the algae goes I do not have a problem just clean it out once in a while..


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## aeneas (21 Feb 2021)

Just further thoughts around the overflow boxes:

Exotic Marine Systems: has horizontal instead of vertical slots in the inner box: good or bad? Looks the only system that does horizontal...
Eshopss Eclipse L: probably too small for 290gal tank?
Synergy Reef Ghost 20": some review say poor / cheap quality?
Modular Marine 3000gph: seems interesting, but it looks like not available at the moment...?
Fiji Cube 2400gph: also looks very sleek...

Any thoughts on one vs the other?


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## aeneas (23 Feb 2021)

Sorry guys to keep going at this - but after lots more reading (and confusion) I am down to: 

(a) *Modular Marine*: really nice design, internal and external overflow boxes at equal levels, seems to have good review (except for a few individual cases); has vertical slits i the weir - good or bad?

(b) *Exotic Marine System*: very very similar to Modular Marine, also internal and external units at equal levels, but has horizontal slits in the weir... they claim that this gives them much more surface area to skim and much less trickling water noise that one gets with vertical slits. They also say less impact for algae growth in the slits, reducing the flow further. I worry that these may be dangerous for some fish being sucked in, although other than cardinal tetras I have no other small fish in the tank and I have never seen those swim so close to the surface.

Any thoughts on the *vertical* vs *horizontal* slits?


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## Kalum (23 Feb 2021)

no apology ever needed @aeneas that's what the forum is for, i'm in the very very early stages of planning a 500L+ tank after i move house so find threads like this extremely useful and have been keeping an eye on it while doing my own research


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## Wookii (23 Feb 2021)

Kalum said:


> no apology ever needed @aeneas that's what the forum is for, i'm in the very very early stages of planning a 500L+ tank after i move house so find threads like this extremely useful and have been keeping an eye on it while doing my own research



Definite +1 to this, don't apologise at all @aeneas threads like this are useful for all of us considering sump based systems.

To answer your query, I would personally want vertical slots, they'll be easier to prevent shrimp and fish going over the weir, and probably easier to modify for water level adjustment as @DeepMetropolis did with his here:


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## DeepMetropolis (23 Feb 2021)

aeneas said:


> Sorry guys to keep going at this - but after lots more reading (and confusion) I am down to:
> 
> (a) *Modular Marine*: really nice design, internal and external overflow boxes at equal levels, seems to have good review (except for a few individual cases); has vertical slits i the weir - good or bad?
> 
> ...


Yes I have the occasional ottocinclus in the sump even with vertical slots.. If you are experiencing algea build up there must be something wrong with your maintenance. The most troubling is leaf litter clogging up your weir but it's easely removed by hand..
And no overflow needs extra surface skimming imo.


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## not called Bob (24 Feb 2021)

Only ever seen vertical slots, to me makes sense as each one is open and so never going to have an air suck noise. The noise is all at the bottom of the standpipe when it's not balanced, but with the doors shut it's no more sound than a spray bar on the surface. 

Not open top would be the most silent option, but they are not in fashion at the moment


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## aeneas (27 Feb 2021)

Guys, next "challenge" in consideration of the set-up: assuming this will be an EMS or MM style 30-32" overflow box with a sump system in the cabinet below and a quiet return pipe, such as Red Dragon 3 mini... for a 96" long aquarium - how should I handle the return pipes? I was always hoping for the beautiful ADA glass lily pipes. But I wonder if this is possible in such setup. What would you recommend to make the water flow well throughout the entire length?


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## Wookii (27 Feb 2021)

aeneas said:


> Guys, next "challenge" in consideration of the set-up: assuming this will be an EMS or MM style 30-32" overflow box with a sump system in the cabinet below and a quiet return pipe, such as Red Dragon 3 mini... for a 96" long aquarium - how should I handle the return pipes? I was always hoping for the beautiful ADA glass lily pipes. But I wonder if this is possible in such setup. What would you recommend to make the water flow well throughout the entire length?



The glass lily pipes look very nice when they’re nice and clean, but they are honestly a pain in the ass to live with in terms of both function and maintenance.

That said, if you are dead set on them, I’m sure you could terminate your return pipe with some 16/22 tubing to allow connection onto the glassware.


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## aeneas (5 Mar 2021)

Next phase of planning: I have done much reading now regarding sump setups... Please help with some of the dilemmas below. Main aim: good performance and as silent as possible operation.
I am currently thinking of three possible designs - see the images below; one has 3 major chambers, one has 5 and one has 4 chambers with K1 media included. I also have no idea how to calculate the appropriate height of the baffles separating each chamber. Is there some recommended calculation?




*Option 1:*

does the layout make sense?
Any suggestion regarding the mechanical filtration in the 1st chamber?
I noticed some people add glass strips on top of the baffle at an angle (see the small red coloured line on top of the baffle) which might make the water flow nicer and make less trickling sound. Does this make sense or is it unnecessary?
how should I calculate the necessary height of the baffles?
in 3rd chamber, are there any ideas of some additional coarse material I should use there - especially to prevent water trickling from the top of the baffle?




*Option 2:*

this one has maybe even more "organized" flow... does it make sense? I think I like it even more than the 1st option
any suggestion on the mechanical filtration in 1st chamber?
chamber no. 2: should I continue with some more mechanical or should I add bio?
same as Option 1: do these angularly placed glass strips (between chambers 2 and 3) make any sense in terms of quieting the trickling of the water flow?




*Option 3: *

maybe best option??
lots of people praise K1 media... I just do not want to add aeration pumps... this would make more noise and also lead to more loss of CO2. I could replace this with a couple of wavemakers instead? If yes, does this chamber make sense? What should be the height of the baffles? How should I calculate this so that I get correct flows?
should I add some coarse filter to the chamber 4 before the pump, just to additionally protect the inflow there?

Any other recommendations highly appreciated!
I hope you will find the sketches useful and thank you for any inputs on this...


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## Wookii (5 Mar 2021)

Lots of ways to skin this particular cat @aeneas - my personal recommendation would be to use a wet/dry trickle filter for the biological section. This by all accounts gives you a decent and continuous increase in dissolved oxygen which is a significant benefit in an aquarium for a number of reasons.

Also plan your sump to make maintenance as easy as possible - particularly the pre-filter section - you’ll thank yourself in a years time.

For the actual prefilter, you could look to use standard filter socks, or create a first stage section with removable fine filter foam. If you really want to go all out for a low maintenance option, take a look at the Clarisea Filter Rollers for your prefilter.


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## aeneas (5 Mar 2021)

Wookii said:


> Lots of ways to skin this particular cat @aeneas - my personal recommendation would be to use a wet/dry trickle filter for the biological section. This by all accounts gives you a decent and continuous increase in dissolved oxygen which is a significant benefit in an aquarium for a number of reasons.
> 
> Also plan your sump to make maintenance as easy as possible - particularly the pre-filter section - you’ll thank yourself in a years time.
> 
> For the actual prefilter, you could look to use standard filter socks, or create a first stage section with removable fine filter foam. If you really want to go all out for a low maintenance option, take a look at the Clarisea Filter Rollers for your prefilter.


On the ease of maintenance, there is another suggestion... to ditch the baffles altogether and just do a horizontal flow with lots of sponges... Could this also be the quietest option?


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## Wookii (5 Mar 2021)

See, I’m a maintenance phobe, if I can find a way to dodge it, I will. So I’ve never really been comfortable with the coarse-finer-finest approach - to me that just three type of songs to wash. I’d just put the finest first, and have only one sponge to wash! 😅

Also, you’ve missed my point on the trickle filter - DO can be one of the main benefits of a sump.


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## aeneas (6 Mar 2021)

Wookii said:


> See, I’m a maintenance phobe, if I can find a way to dodge it, I will. So I’ve never really been comfortable with the coarse-finer-finest approach - to me that just three type of songs to wash. I’d just put the finest first, and have only one sponge to wash! 😅
> 
> Also, you’ve missed my point on the trickle filter - DO can be one of the main benefits of a sump.


I love your "maintenance phobe" approach. I am in your camp!  

Indeed I did not understand what you meant by the trickle filter / DO... can you pls explain? Is there a link to a thread that has something like that? When I hear "trickle" I think "noise"... I would like to avoid any noise as much as possible... so minimal trickling possible. 

Also in terms of aeration... the idea for this tank is heavily planted nature aquarium... so there will be plenty of oxygen generated by the plants. I was thinking of possibly adding some airstones to the sump to switch on during the night when everyone is asleep (aquarium is on a different floor than the bedrooms so it would not be heard during the night), but not sure how that would disrupt the CO2.


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## aeneas (6 Mar 2021)

Any other comments regarding baffles vs horizontal flow in terms of (a) sump efficiency and (b) noise of water flow and trickle?
I recently bought @George Farmer 's book and loved it... many great tips there regarding the build. But in the Sump section, there was very limited information and I feel there are still so many different DIY approaches where each one has a separate opinion on what works and what doesn't


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## not called Bob (6 Mar 2021)

I'd have a separate section of the sump set aside as a ro storage, you could run the filter as and when needed to fill and have an auto top up running to add the very slight amounts evaporation will require. 

Need there to be enough space above the running water line for power failure back filling to happen and so it fills the sump and not the floor. 3 Chambers has been plenty for me 
One has the water entering, middle is for what ever I am. Using, (at mo it's a settlement area and shrimp hangout) and third houses the return pump
The slots are at base on first, then a pour over with extra buffle to stop bubbles getting to pump on the other.


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## X3NiTH (6 Mar 2021)

Wookii said:


> Clarisea Filter Rollers for your prefilter



I would be looking at Rolling Mat Filters, the one I have for the marines is the Innovitech X-Filter 1.0 (the smallest one they do, it has a bigger brother). Innovitech also provide different Micron sized filter rolls so you can choose how fine you want to filter.

Using one of these will go a long way at massively reducing/eliminating waste particulate matter from reaching the furthest points of the sump. If you choose to use sponges in section two they won’t be dragging particulate waste through them and so won’t require as much maintenance.


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## Wookii (6 Mar 2021)

X3NiTH said:


> I would be looking at Rolling Mat Filters, the one I have for the marines is the Innovitech X-Filter 1.0 (the smallest one they do, it has a bigger brother). Innovitech also provide different Micron sized filter rolls so you can choose how fine you want to filter.
> 
> Using one of these will go a long way at massively reducing/eliminating waste particulate matter from reaching the furthest points of the sump. If you choose to use sponges in section two they won’t be dragging particulate waste through them and so won’t require as much maintenance.



Yeah the Innovitech is a another option, the Clarisea I mention is the same sort of thing, I just didn’t know if the Innovitech would be available in @aeneas’s country as it’s a fairly new product:





The Innovitech would be my pick to for the reasons you mention - I like the fact that there are different micron options available for the rollovers.

How have you found living with yours? Is it fairly straight forward and  are the sensors fairly reliable?


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## Wookii (6 Mar 2021)

aeneas said:


> Indeed I did not understand what you meant by the trickle filter / DO... can you pls explain?



This is a trickle filter (aka wet and dry filter):





The water comes in from the top of the filter media into a ‘drip’ tray, and the water ‘rains’ down onto filter media and trickles over it. It doesn’t have to be configured exactly as in the image, the inlets can pass through an initial prefilter stage, and then over a baffle into the drip tray in the second section.

The benefit of the trickle filter is that the filter media has access to a lot more oxygen from the air than when it is fully submerged, and so biologically is much more efficient, and the hugely increased water surface contact with the air means that more oxygen diffuses into the water.

The increased dissolved oxygen (DO) is of benefit to the whole aquarium, even if it is heavily planted, and especially during start up.


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## aeneas (6 Mar 2021)

Wookii said:


> This is a trickle filter (aka wet and dry filter):
> The water comes in from the top of the filter media into a ‘drip’ tray, and the water ‘rains’ down onto filter media and trickles over it. It doesn’t have to be configured exactly as in the image, the inlets can pass through an initial prefilter stage, and then over a baffle into the drip tray in the second section.
> The benefit of the trickle filter is that the filter media has access to a lot more oxygen from the air than when it is fully submerged, and so biologically is much more efficient, and the hugely increased water surface contact with the air means that more oxygen diffuses into the water.
> The increased dissolved oxygen (DO) is of benefit to the whole aquarium, even if it is heavily planted, and especially during start up.


Hmm... two concerns about this though:
1) how does such trickling & aeration affect the CO2?
2) this seems to me there would be much more noise generarted with wet-dry then the horizontal wet-only where there is no possibility for any unwanted noise.
...I've now seen some people having this horizontal sponge-only sump and a very good return pump and indeed it is SILENT... and I mean silent. No noise whatsoever. That is what I'll be aiming for.

The wet-dry you suggest seems a fine idea, but I worry about the two points above. What is your thought on this?



X3NiTH said:


> I would be looking at Rolling Mat Filters, the one I have for the marines is the Innovitech X-Filter 1.0 (the smallest one they do, it has a bigger brother). Innovitech also provide different Micron sized filter rolls so you can choose how fine you want to filter.


I love the Inovitech idea... will study it further and think about how to add this to the design... Thanks for pointing this out to me.


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## X3NiTH (7 Mar 2021)

Wookii said:


> How have you found living with yours? Is it fairly straight forward and are the sensors fairly reliable?



I haven’t got it up and running yet, I’m on a bit of a go slow getting the tank set up. I did tons of research beforehand and spoke to others about experiences with other brands, and this was the device they were happy with the roller performance (never jamming the motor), it appears to have more beans than others. I’m optimistic that it will perform as I hope.


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## X3NiTH (7 Mar 2021)

Btw if you want the Object Model I made of the X-Filter 1.0 to play about with in SketchUp I’d be happy to let you use it, it’s dimensionally correct in volume for spacing fitment to a sump section.


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## aeneas (7 Mar 2021)

X3NiTH said:


> Btw if you want the Object Model I made of the X-Filter 1.0 to play about with in SketchUp I’d be happy to let you use it, it’s dimensionally correct in volume for spacing fitment to a sump section.


Would be grateful if you could share your sketchup file to play with.

I've been looking at whatever is available on these roller filters on youtube and limited info on forums... Innovitech solution is still not very clear to me. Quite technical. For example, I don't really get the vortex bypass controller at the bottom etc. I've also seen a few videos where the water in this filter seems to be making lots of turbulence, and consequently, noise.
At lease as to what I saw in the short amount of research, Theiling Rollermat Aqua seems almost a more straightforward option? Also allows for greater flow and seems to collect much more dirt before it rotates so it lasts longer. Have you considered that one in your research?

...And one more thing that worries me about these devices - in principle I find the idea wonderful, but on the other hand this is a certain death for any small fish that may by accident happen to be sucked into the overflow and into the sump. If the first compartment is just an empty compartment before the sponges, then the little fish can remain there a few days and we can eventually notice it and put it back... Any thoughts on this?

Hmm... really love the idea. And prefilter like this would probably reduce maintenance significantly...


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## X3NiTH (7 Mar 2021)

aeneas said:


> what I saw in the short amount of research, Theiling Rollermat Aqua seems almost a more straightforward option? Also allows for greater flow and seems to collect much more dirt before it rotates so it lasts longer. Have you considered that one in your research?



Yes, because the X-Filter is clear in design I can visually inspect to see if any Nano Marine Fish have accidentally been flushed over the weir. The vortex generator gap should be enough to let an Eviota through, anything bigger would need rescued, I will try to mitigate this with how I setup the weir overflow whether I use mesh for flush prevention.

PM me your e-mail and I’ll send the file over.


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## aeneas (8 Mar 2021)

In parallel to all the sump discussions, I am also starting to consider the lighting options. To make this thread clean and not overwhelm with individual equipment topics, I posted a separate thread in the Lighting section.
Basically, I am considering between

ADA Solar RGB
Kessil A360x Tuna Sun
ONF Flat One+
Chihiros Vivid 2
Personally, I am kind of between ADA Solar RGB and Kessil A360x but all of these seem to be good options.
Any feedback here or in the dedicated thread in the Lighting section would be much appreciated.


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## aeneas (14 Mar 2021)

So, the lights have been selected - thanks again for all who helped with their feedback and support! We decided at the end to go with the GHL ecosystem which will as integrated work and as unified control of the tank as possible:

*4x GHL Mitras LX7004*.
*GHL Profilux 4 aquairum computer*
*GHL Doser 2.1* for fertilization
*Probes: pH & Temperature*.     _Do Oxygen & Redox make any sense in freshwater aquarium??_
*Powerbar* - allows Profilux control of each electrical switch for all other connected devices

_Any additional thoughts or comments on this part?_

Furthermore - the design of the sump is now reaching its "final" stages... we will install Innovitech's X.17 fleece roller filter, which should take care of and prefilter all the gunk and larger particles. The rest of the sump will be a horizontal flow of biomedia only. The return pump will be an "oversized" Red Dragon 3 with 100W power and 12m3/h flow. See scheme below:






Now, the next stage is where I am again complete beginner - coming from 30 years of just low-tech aquariums: *CO2!

PLANNING THE CO2 SYSTEM:*
Pls help me plan the right way to set-up and add to this infrastructure a good CO2 system:

what is the best CO2 kit I could get?
can I control CO2 via the pH probe in the GHL Profilux? For example - adding solenoid valve to the CO2 kit that opens on the pH readout from the GHL pH probe?
how should I connect the CO2 system - intake and output? Do I connect it to the return pipe directly or can I just make a separate independent circle to send the CO2-enriched water back to the last chamber just before the intake of the pump?
...keeping in mind the entire overall design effort, I'd rather avoid additional pumps etc. for the CO2 to keep noise minimal (the Red Dragon is - tested - completely silent despite 12.000m3/h flow)
any additional measures to limit CO2 loss from the sump?

Also: I've been reading some articles regarding automating CO2 dosing based on pH and it seems people have mixed feelings about that... What are your thoughts? I would like to minimize pH swings to keep the stress to the fish (particularly the discus fish) to a minimum... I understand plants do not need as much CO2 at night, but CO2 is cheap and I'd rather loose CO2 and refill more often than have great pH swings and stress the fish... what are your thoughts around this?

...any sketches of your own that you can share or useful threads you can point me towards would be much appreciated! I've read many threads by now but this still seems highly complicated to me and lots of DIY solutions that are beyond my "engineering" skills


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## aeneas (14 Mar 2021)

One more item on my "need to figure it out" list is regarding the return pipes. To keep this thread clean, I've asked that question in the dedicated "water flow" thread I found here; any comments there would be much appreciated and I will post the final solution again back in this thread.


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## Kalum (14 Mar 2021)

With the drain in the return chamber then you'll be draining a good amount of 'clean' water from your auto water change system, would it make more sense to drain 'dirty' water before the return chamber? 

Plus I'm guessing co2 will be added to the sump so this would be in the same category of removing some of the Co2 from reaching the tank and possibly cause fluctuations?


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## aeneas (14 Mar 2021)

Kalum said:


> With the drain in the return chamber then you'll be draining a good amount of 'clean' water from your auto water change system, would it make more sense to drain 'dirty' water before the return chamber?
> 
> Plus I'm guessing co2 will be added to the sump so this would be in the same category of removing some of the Co2 from reaching the tank and possibly cause fluctuations?


The idea behind the automatic water change is continous dripping of the fresh RO water... this gets mixed up with the rest of the water at a speed of 5.000 liters per hour flow through the pump. I intend to drip-in cca 50L per day. Dripping will compensate for any evaporation; when extra fresh water elevates water level in the sump to tip over the "drain pipe" level - it will automatically just flow out. Minimal loss of fresh water... At the same time, since the draining is not automated but fixed to a designated water level in the sump, this also prevents any unwanted flooding... it just goes in the drain.

Regarding CO2, I don't know... I would really need experts here. I've never done it. I am, thus, wondering (a) adding CO2-enriched water return line from a CO2 reactor directly in front of the inflow of the return pump, or, (b) making a bypass on the actual return line itself, so that part of the return water goes via a CO2 reactor and then comes back to the return pipe a bit further up. Any input here very very welcome!


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## Kalum (14 Mar 2021)

Yeh 100% up with the reason for the drain and planning to do the same myself in a future sump, like you say it has a duel purpose of being a failsafe for flooding and also water changes

What I'm questioning is the position of the drain, I'm certainly not speaking from experience here and more asking the question myself, but I just had in my head that I'd have the fresh water feed after the drain so no fresh water is lost via the drain, the water in your return chamber will constantly be a mix of fresh and old so your 50L might equate to say 40L (just a random number) fresh water turnover after this loss so its probably marginal and not an issue

Your way definitely allows a (potentially better?) failsafe with less chance of the sump drain being blocked where it is and mine would mean I'd be relying on the tanks overflow as the failsafe for flooding 

I was thinking of either having an overflow to drain in the tank overflow box or setting up a sump drain similar to yours but right after the 1st prefilter chamber


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## ian_m (15 Mar 2021)

Drain in sump, whilst good on paper has major "failure issues". If you have a power cut, water from tank, water from the down pipe and water from up tube, drain back into the sump and excess water drains out the overflow. All nice and safe.

When power comes back, you have now lost a significant amount of water, more than likely enough that the sump system will no longer work.

You would be normally fit an overflow in the tank, thus on power failure you will no lose water.

Just make sure the sump is big enough to hold all the excess water upon power failure.


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## Andrew Butler (15 Mar 2021)

There's plenty of 'Automatic Water Changers' out there, Pacific sun *maybe* worth you looking at, although I don't know where they're upto now with regards to advancements. I know you used to be able to use their Kore 5th doser as an AWC if you sacrificed 2 channels so would hopefully do away with part of @ian_m concerns as the drain would exist as something an electronic device controlled and not be a direct drain in the sump.

As Ian correctly says you need to calculate the capacity of the sump and water that would drain from the aquarium should there be a power cut, this can make running a minimal rim to water level more of a challenge.

Possibly worth checking some of the marine forums out for some ideas.

I'll comment on your other thread RE: Water Flow.


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## jagillham (16 Mar 2021)

The trick with the sump drain I think is to have it as high as you can. Mine is above the height of the baffles, and as close as I'd dare to drill the edge of the glass. The difference between the maximum level, and the minimum operational level allows the system to restart. In your case we can assume maybe 15l of water from the tank, plus the contents of the overflow box (down to the level of your lowest stand pipe).  

I've got 2 outlets on my sump as I intentionally flood the sump from a standpipe within my tank for a weekly 50% water change. On an old design I did have only 1, but it sometimes got a little close for comfort if the tank was draining quicker than the sump. I've also got the pipe into the sump coming into large pond filter sock that is taller than the water level within the tank. I had found before that debris such as leaves or snails could otherwise find their way into the drain and cause an issue.

Your system would normally have water coming in a lot slower, but in a power cut situation you may find if your overflow pipe from the tank is a similar size to the drain in the sump, it could fill up quicker than the drain can take it away.


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## aeneas (16 Mar 2021)

reposting this in my main build thread - hopefully to get some additional response. I will soon need to give detailed instruction to the aquarium maker regarding the position and number of holes they will need to drill for the return pipes. I still have no idea how the water would actually behave in such a long tank, so I really appreciate as much input here as possible. @Andrew Butler gave some useful tips already, but certainly any additional feedback or ideas more then welcome. 
Considering the size (243cm L x 65cm W x 70cm H) I drafted in an approximate layout of the hardscape (black) and possible positioning of the outflow pipes (purple); in my sketch there are three, @Andrew Butler suggested two - one at each end would probably be enough. Does this make sense? What height would make most sense?


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## aeneas (17 Mar 2021)

jagillham said:


> The trick with the sump drain I think is to have it as high as you can. Mine is above the height of the baffles, and as close as I'd dare to drill the edge of the glass. The difference between the maximum level, and the minimum operational level allows the system to restart. In your case we can assume maybe 15l of water from the tank, plus the contents of the overflow box (down to the level of your lowest stand pipe).
> 
> I've got 2 outlets on my sump as I intentionally flood the sump from a standpipe within my tank for a weekly 50% water change. On an old design I did have only 1, but it sometimes got a little close for comfort if the tank was draining quicker than the sump. I've also got the pipe into the sump coming into large pond filter sock that is taller than the water level within the tank. I had found before that debris such as leaves or snails could otherwise find their way into the drain and cause an issue.
> 
> Your system would normally have water coming in a lot slower, but in a power cut situation you may find if your overflow pipe from the tank is a similar size to the drain in the sump, it could fill up quicker than the drain can take it away.


I agree... but this is why I have another tubing on the inside which can have adjustable height; so I can choose by pivoting it more up or down where I want the water level to start flowing out. The reason for this is, that - in case I want to completely clean up the system - I can just unplug this tubing and now my drain is at the bottom of the sump - I can drain out pretty much all the water just by gravity... no mess.
With the MM / EMS overflow box design the tank should not drain more than ~20 litres or so in case of a power failure or am I missing something here?


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## aeneas (17 Mar 2021)

Separate topic, but maybe some of you guys have experience with this: I intend to have GHL's Profilux aquarium computer to monitor and control many aspects of the aquarium.
In terms of "actionable" data I get from various probes, I will certainly have temperature and pH probes... 
However I am not too sure about usefulness of the following:

Redox probe?
Conductivity probe?
Oxygen sensor?

The guys at GHL gave me Redox+Conductivity probes in the quotation, but I am not sure how much added value those are in a freshwater tank? Would dissolved oxygen not be more useful? Would conductivity really be of use if I am at the same time adding a whole bunch of nutrients / plant fertilizers?
Any thoughts on these?


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## Wookii (17 Mar 2021)

aeneas said:


> Separate topic, but maybe some of you guys have experience with this: I intend to have GHL's Profilux aquarium computer to monitor and control many aspects of the aquarium.
> In terms of "actionable" data I get from various probes, I will certainly have temperature and pH probes...
> However I am not too sure about usefulness of the following:
> 
> ...



You probably don't really need any of them in all honesty - nor the computer - but I'm a gadget freak too, and the GHL stuff is very drool-worthy, so I can fully understand the attraction.

The pH probe you'll only really need at start up to establish a pH profile for your tank and CO2 dosing, and won't need it much after that - definitely don't use it as a controller. A temperature probe is always a good option to control a heater, but again, that can be done with a 40 quid wifi controller, and again is largely 'set and forget'.

Conductivity is useful to know, but again, only once in a while, and only if targeting a specific TDS for certain livestock. Again, a 20 quid handheld unit does the job perfectly well.

An oxygen probe is always something I've wanted to have a play with, but purely out of academic interest - it would serve no real purpose for maintaining an aquarium.


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## aeneas (18 Mar 2021)

Has anyone seen these Innovitech nozzles for the returns? Seems like an interesting idea... clearly marketed for marine, but could be interesting in terms of water flow also for freshwater?


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## Wookii (18 Mar 2021)

aeneas said:


> Has anyone seen these Innovitech nozzles for the returns? Seems like an interesting idea... clearly marketed for marine, but could be interesting in terms of water flow also for freshwater?



Random Flow Generator (RFG) nozzles are available from a number of companies. I tried one a little while back, but it didn't work. I think you need quite a bit of flow/pressure through them before they work properly - more than you would typically have in a planted tank. The amount of flow required depends on the size and number of them. For example one 1/2" RFG's need about 1,500 litres per hour to create the random flow.

Its a shame, as the concept would be perfect of Co2 distribution.


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## aeneas (21 Mar 2021)

Further concepts around the flow; rather than lots of different directions, I was trying to make it more directional - bottom (blue) flow right to left and top (yellow) flow back left to right back to the overflow; sorry for not the best style, but I hope it gets the message across; the return pipes (outflow) are the two red dots; both positioned so that they encourage leftwards downward flow (blue water flow)... there are two more pumpheads (purple) helping to further support the flow; water once reaching the left is circulating upward and returning (yellow) on the surface back to the skimmer. This would then be more of a directional flow hopefully? I can sketch this but I have no idea if this would work so in reality.
This would be much much preferred way of installation for me as well - I have a glass sliding door on the left half of the tank so being able to NOT DO any plumbing there would be ideal as it would allow me to push the tank closer to the wall... all the plumbing would then be on the right hand of the aquarium.
Would this work???


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## not called Bob (21 Mar 2021)

have you thought about plumbing returns up through the base, its not uncommon in a custom reef build


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## aeneas (21 Mar 2021)

not called Bob said:


> have you thought about plumbing returns up through the base, its not uncommon in a custom reef build


I thought about it - but I don't have enough information / knowledge to make a smart guess how/where to make the outflows to make the return most effective. I also want to be mindful of the aquascape... returns through the base limit the aquascaping a lot - or, at least you have to have a very good idea of the aquascape you are creating before you are doing any such drilling. With back-mounted returns it is more forgiving.


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## aeneas (23 Mar 2021)

aeneas said:


> Further concepts around the flow; rather than lots of different directions, I was trying to make it more directional - bottom (blue) flow right to left and top (yellow) flow back left to right back to the overflow; sorry for not the best style, but I hope it gets the message across; the return pipes (outflow) are the two red dots; both positioned so that they encourage leftwards downward flow (blue water flow)... there are two more pumpheads (purple) helping to further support the flow; water once reaching the left is circulating upward and returning (yellow) on the surface back to the skimmer. This would then be more of a directional flow hopefully? I can sketch this but I have no idea if this would work so in reality.
> This would be much much preferred way of installation for me as well - I have a glass sliding door on the left half of the tank so being able to NOT DO any plumbing there would be ideal as it would allow me to push the tank closer to the wall... all the plumbing would then be on the right hand of the aquarium.
> Would this work???
> View attachment 165236


Just bumping this thread... I will need to give drill instructions to the manufacturer of the tank... any thoughts around this design of the return pipes (marked red) to create a more linear - river-like flow?


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## Wookii (23 Mar 2021)

Just a couple of thoughts then:


You need the return outlets much higher on the tank wall than indicated, as you have to remember that whenever you turn the pump off the water will back siphon down to that level.
Just have one outlet on the far right would seem better given the weir position - you could make this a larger return pipe, and then split it with multiple lockline outlet heads. Though personally I might be more inclined to place the weir centrally, and have a return outlet at either end for a 'W' type flow arrangement typically seen on reef tanks.


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## aeneas (23 Mar 2021)

Wookii said:


> Just a couple of thoughts then:
> 
> 
> You need the return outlets much higher on the tank wall than indicated, as you have to remember that whenever you turn the pump off the water will back siphon down to that level.
> Just have one outlet on the far right would seem better given the weir position - you could make this a larger return pipe, and then split it with multiple lockline outlet heads. Though personally I might be more inclined to place the weir centrally, and have a return outlet at either end for a 'W' type flow arrangement typically seen on reef tanks.


Thanks @Wookii!
1) regarding height - I've not looked into plumbings yet in enough detail but are there not elements you could put into your pipe that enable only unidirectional water flow? For example like you have in gardening - water can flow only in one direction (i.e. into the tank) but cannot flow back (e.g. back siphon as you mention)? Is that not the case here?

2) positioning just one outflow to the right... hmm... that probably makes sense, but with 4000 liters per hour from a single exit (even if split outlet heads) would be a very powerful current wouldn't it? ...I agree a W format would make most sense, but in my case I would really try to not do any backside plumbing on the left side of the tank due to the glass sliding doors I have behind there...


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## Wookii (23 Mar 2021)

You can get non-return valves, but you are placing a significant reliance on a potential single point of failure - and if it does fail, the result will be significant flooding.


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## aeneas (24 Mar 2021)

Good news! We had a family meeting regarding this sliding glass door behind the future tank and general consensus was reached: the door is going out! 
So: we now have much more manoeuvring space in terms of plumbing!!
I think it is best now to go back towards a more standard positioning of things - overflow box in the center and the returns on each side of the tank.
BIG QUESTION: do I need to drill and make classical return pipes with ugly plastic outflows or can I instead use two sets of the larger sized glass lily pipes instead?
I saw lily pipes from JARDLI on Amazon that are 20mm for 3/4" ID (19/25mm) Tubing; two sets of these with a Red Dragon 80W pump pushing the water I think these should be more than capable of handling ~600gph each with 1200gph combined flow? ...I also saw GreenAqua had their own glass work offering a 26mm lily pipe but they are pricing it as much as ADA... What do you guys think? Is this a possibility?


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## aeneas (25 Mar 2021)

Played with this central positioning concept a bit more:
Scenario A: 4x glass lily pipes such as Jardli 20mm or GreenAqua's 26mm lily pipes:



Scenario B: two y-split loc-line return jets with some good quality nozzle:




what do you guys think?


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## Wookii (25 Mar 2021)

Personally I would go for the Loclines every time - they’ll give you much more flexibility and control in fine tuning the flow directions, and will be much easier to clean and maintain. Glass lily pipes are a PITA to me, and a perfect example of form over function.


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## jagillham (25 Mar 2021)

not called Bob said:


> have you thought about plumbing returns up through the base, its not uncommon in a custom reef build



It's possible as I've done, but you are very reliant on the non-return valve not failing at an inconvenient moment.





I did find it was jammed from completely closing on several occasions by a MTS shell.

The solution is to have the return pump within a filter sock which is taller than the water level of the sump to keep out any debris.


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## not called Bob (25 Mar 2021)

jagillham said:


> It's possible as I've done, but you are very reliant on the non-return valve not failing at an inconvenient moment.
> 
> View attachment 165779
> 
> ...


I have found if you have any form of mollusc in your tank they will get every where and as you say if that valve fails because a creature or sediment stops it and you have no form of bund your going to have a very sorry mess. so having redundancy/fail safe is a very good idea


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## aeneas (29 Mar 2021)

Guys, I'm still thinking about the UV here... since I will have discus and will keep water temperature at their "lower end" ~27C, I want to make as much prevention for disease as possible; at the same time 27C is warm for algae to like... so for both reasons, UV bypass might make sense; 
I've spoken to my local supplier here who installed also my current water softener and RO system etc and they proposed to use Viqua VH410 UV system, which is actually intended for UV sterilization of household water supply and handles 4200 l/h at 30mJ/cm2. Pretty powerful it seems, but the price is close to $1000. Alternative is AquaMedic Helix Max - I already have a 36W which is probably underpowered, but could swap it for 55W. That one comes almost 4x cheaper... Would it still get the job done or should go for the "pro" and expensive Viqua system?


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## not called Bob (29 Mar 2021)

there’s probably more than enough space to fit an Amalagam UV in there, as long as its in a spot where the uv can not cause any damage to the container. no flow restriction and easier maintenance and costs


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## aeneas (13 Apr 2021)

A quick update regarding the build... most of the equipment is now already in... still waiting for the stand and the actual glass tank - expected to arrive end of the week or next week.
What I received until now are:

GHL system: Mitras lights (4x LX 7004), Profilux 4 controller, Dosing pump with 4x heads, water probes for pH, conductivity, redox
Royal Exclusive Red Dragon Speedy 3100gph pump for sump
CO2Art Elite CO2 regulator
Innovitech fleece roller filter X1.7
UV sterilizer Viqua VH410 delivering (30mJ/cm2) at 1100gph flow
a bunch of other small stuff...
...it will be lots of fun assembling all of these things 

Quick question: I now have two solenoid valves for CO2 regulator: one which is part of the CO2Art Elite regulator and one that came together with the GHL system and is part of GHL engineering. GHL looks more "hardcore" but I have no idea whether quality is comparable or should I choose one over the other? Any thoughts?


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## LondonDragon (13 Apr 2021)

aeneas said:


> choose one over the other? Any thoughts?


Stick with the CO2Art kit and keep the other solenoid  as a backup


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## aeneas (15 Apr 2021)

Trying to prepare myself now for getting the tank up and running, so I have a few more basing items I wanted to check with you, or, alternatively, if you can point me in the right direction to read more about these things: 
*
1) Cycling the tank:* how to properly cycle a big 1100 litre tank???

I will plant as densely as possible and add plenty of fast growing plants (some of which I may remove later when everything settles)
I will add some of my old filter media and sponges to the sump to transfer the bacteria (hopefully no bad bacteria though... right now I don't have any discus, so it is hard to tell with these other hardy fish, which look healthy but can carry anything and will not show it)
the tank will be AWC controlled and I will do lots of water changes initially - e.g. 30% WC daily (does this make sense?)
the tank will use ADA substrate, which is nutrient rich so there will be plenty of release into the water during the initial weeks... (ADA Bacter 100 + ADA Amazonia Power Sand + ADA Amazonia Soil + ADA Amazonia Powder + ADA La plata sand)
I will only use inert rocks (like dragon stone), not having any impact on hardening of the water


when do I start with CO2 to help plant growth? CO2 lowers pH and as far as I know that will change nitrogen chemistry and may interrupt my nitrogen cycling. Any tips?
when do I start with fertilisers? ...again, thinking of the maximal efficiency of plant growth vs. nitrogen cycling?
I'll be using R/O water, but I can start and cycle initially with hard unsoftened water if that would be preferable? Should I be using any micronutrients if using R/O and not yet doing full plant fertilisers?
UV on the return flow during cycling: yes or no? Minimise algae growth? bacteria should populate the sump so probably for the nitrogen cycle I am not hurting it if I UV sterilise return water?
lights: full 7h photoperiod from the start or should I start with lower light intensity while plants are getting acclimatised?

*2) Fertilisation: *EI or lean fertilisation?

the tank will be dedicated to wild discus fish; so I need to be mindful of not overdosing nutrients and making their water parameters undesirable (they are currently being held at Ph 6.6-6.8 and with a conductivity of 300 to 400 microsiemens and a temperature of 27ºC)
I would like to establish a minimal maintenance tank so although will initially add some fast growing plants, later I would prefer slow growers and more long-term stability; I was thinking lean fertilisation would make more sense, but not sure here... I've never been in this territory of tech yet. I have a GHL-controlled pump with automatic 4 pump heads for microdosing of nutrients.
any fertilisation that I go with needs to be in liquid form... a magnetic stirrer and automated dosing. Not adding daily/weekly by spoons... Happy to mix-up stuff once a month, but then let the system take care of fertilisation regime.
...what fertilisation strategy would you recommend for such setup? 

As always, I really appreciate your inputs... this would be such a scary project doing it alone, but with your guidance I feel I have the collective knowledge of the whole team behind that can make this a wonderful success!


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## Karmicnull (15 Apr 2021)

aeneas said:


> when do I start with CO2 to help plant growth? CO2 lowers pH and as far as I know that will change nitrogen chemistry and may interrupt my nitrogen cycling. Any tips?


Start the moment you have plants in there - and don't worry about the ph-lowering effect.  The plants will love the C02, they'll settle in better and grow faster, your tank will mature just fine.  Lots of threads on this forum to that effect!


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## Wookii (16 Apr 2021)

@aeneas You need to be thinking 75%+ daily water changes for the first two weeks with Amazonia as a minimum.

Unless, you are doing a dark start you need to plant heavily, have the CO2 on, and dose ferts from Day 1 - either just potassium if going lean/ADA route, or full EI if going that way. The choice is of course yours, but EI is simple and less prone to error - lean dosing, unless rigidly following a pre-prescribed system like the ADA one, is really for those experienced folks that really know what they are doing.

@Geoffrey Rea has a good start up guide in his post here: 






						New Decade, New Decadence...
					

Nice, a really solid and well grounded scape. That wood looks like it's been there for ever growing out of an ancient lava flow 👍



					www.ukaps.org
				




If you have mature filter media, definitely use that if you can to help seed your sump filter, or even the mulm from cleaning an existing filter, it'll help mature your tank faster. Get the plants growing well before considering adding any livestock, at least a month I would say - even longer for messy and sensitive fish like discus I would say.


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## aeneas (23 May 2021)

Hi all, it's been a while since my last post. We've had some challenges on the way with the manufacturer of the big glass tank etc. so this is causing some delays unfortunately. All of the equipment is now already purchased and waiting to be connected, the stand is ready, so only the glassware is missing.

HOWEVER, I have one big news I'm happy to share: we couldn't resit and we already chose the inhabitants for the new aquarium... beautiful wild discus from the Santarem company. The fish have been handpicked and selected by us (our family) and fully paid for, and the Santarem team was kind and will hold them in a special tank for us until we are fully set up and cycled and ready to receive them in their new home.
Here is a teaser - let me know what you think:


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## aeneas (23 May 2021)

I hope you guys like the selection of beautiful wild royals and semi-royals... I think they will be amazing in the new tank and hardly waiting to finish it. 

Now, I have ONE MORE FINAL request to make - as I mentioned... all the equipment is bought and waiting - EXCEPT FOR THE SUMP. I still cannot decide whether I have made the right design or not. As you will remember we went for a "horizontal" design to have a simple flow through the foam filter media as biological filtration (like matten filter etc.) and I have the Innovitech Fleece roller filter at the beginning to take out all the nasty stuff and biological debris. It should run pretty clean. On the sides I planned just small 3cm side wings of glass to hold the foam filter media in place and force the water through the media instead of flowing along the walls on the side. At the end - before the return pump, I added a baffle, however not sure if that adds any value? On the top I also added glass wings so that I can place some acrylic cover on top to minimize evaporation. 
Here below are the last sketches. PLEASE - can you have one more look at the sump design and let me know if you think the design makes sense, would you change anything, does the final baffle make sense, should I have 2 baffles (up and down) or none? Anything else?
Is the 100cm length (with 50cm width and 50cm height) OK for a sump for the tank we are planning? Since it will be a heavily planted tank and having the fleece roller, I think it should be enough... or do you think I would need to make it 120x50x50?
I would like to confirm the build of the sump early this coming week so that I may start working on the installations etc. and then only wait for the big tank to arrive once it's finally ready - hopefully in about a month.
Much appreciated as always!


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## ian_m (24 May 2021)

I can see a couple of failure issues in your design.

If sump pump fails/turns off/power cut, water drains from the pipework, raises in sump and drains to out of your overflow, thus you are losing "working water".

One way check valves never ever ever ever ever work reliably. You get a snail/plant/detritus stuck in them preventing them working, as well as seriously restricting flow. If you are intending on relying on them to prevent back syphoning and sump over filling....DONT. Use air gaps, weirs, water boxes etc to prevent back flow.

You need to be extremely careful if using heaters in your sump. As if you have too low water, too powerful return pump or blocked down pipe you can end up with the heaters exposed. I read somewhere of someone who had his sump empty out in his lounge as the downpipe got restricted (leaves I think), the return pump emptied the sump back into the tank, nearly overflowing the tank, as he didn't leave equivalent to the sump volume above the water level in the tank, the heaters got exposed and melted the plastic of the sump letting water into his lounge. You need a "weir" in the sump to prevent the heaters ever running dry if there is an "issue". This is why you have baffles/weirs in sumps to prevent the return pump never ever ever completely draining the sump. Weirs/baffles reduce the maximum volume of water pumped back into the tank, so absolutely no chance of tank overflowing, if the downpipe fails/gets blocked etc.


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## Wookii (24 May 2021)

Just to add to Ian's excellent points, you can also lay the heaters down in the pump chamber, and have the pump raised up on a small stand so that the bottom of the pump intake is an inch or two above the heaters, so if the pump runs the sump dry the heaters will still be underwater. Additionally you can add a float switch to turn off the heaters if the water level drops too low - though you wouldn't want to be relying solely on a float switch as it can fail or clog, it adds an additional failsafe.

I've gone through the same thought processes on sump design, as I intend to have one on a large tank in the future. My plan was similar to yours for automated water changes, in letting fresh water drain into the sump, and then the increase in the height of the water level exits the waste water out of the overflow, but as Ian points out, it just doesn't work as the the sump always fills up when the pump loses power, then when the pump regains power, there isn't enough "working water" left in the system.

I still haven't come up with an auto water change system for a sump that I'm 100% happy with.


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## ian_m (24 May 2021)

Wookii said:


> I still haven't come up with an auto water change system for a sump that I'm 100% happy with.


Not sure it is that simple to auto change water using a sump due to the large changes in water levels encountered between when running and when "failed".

I have seen systems that used an extra section in their tank weir overflow to allow water to overflow into their drain. You have this drain weir slightly higher than you main overflow so most of the water drains into the sump, but some overflows into the drain. Replacement water was added via float valve in the main tank.

Need to also consider how you are dosing de-chlorinator if you are using tap water to auto water replace.

A failure of the float valve means excess water flows into the drain overflow or if really bad overflows into the sump overflow drain.

Failure of downpipe, means sump pump empties the sump pump compartment and overflows tanks into drain, but at least not losing a large volume of working water.

You need to consider what happens when you have a failure, blocked pipes, failed pumps, reduced flow in pipes, blocked filters etc and how it can auto-recover after say a power failure.

Another sump fail I read about, was a guy came home and his carefully designed baffled and weir'ed sump was empty and tank had overflowed making a nice wet mess. He had purchased a nice custom sized acrylic tank for use as sump BUT he had siliconed in the baffles/weirs making what he thought was a wonderful fail safe/auto restarting sump. However silicone does not in fact bond very well to acrylic and after a year odd, the silicone started coming away, eventually allowing the return pump to pump the entire contents of the sump into the tank, causing the overflow.


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## Wookii (24 May 2021)

ian_m said:


> Not sure it is that simple to auto change water using a sump due to the large changes in water levels encountered between when running and when "failed".
> 
> I have seen systems that used an extra section in their tank weir overflow to allow water to overflow into their drain. You have this drain weir slightly higher than you main overflow so most of the water drains into the sump, but some overflows into the drain. Replacement water was added via float valve in the main tank.
> 
> ...



I'd be using RO, so I'd fill a header tank, auto-dose a remin salt solution via a dosing pump, and then water change with that. I'd have chlorine and chloramine pre-filters so I wouldn't be too worried on using a dechlorinator (its what I do currently as well so I know it works).

What I do currently on both my tanks is a separate plastic water tank fills with water change water (using electronic ball valves or solenoids on the main supply inlet), the fresh water is then pumped or solenoid released (via gravity) into the main tank. Waste waste then overflows out of the tank via a waste over flow pipe as the level in the tank increases. I'm at risk if the overflow pipe blocks, but the chances of that are very slim.

A sump is so more complex though. I guess the key would be to replace smaller quantities of water at a time, and to have a sump with sufficient spare capacity designed in.

The only way I have thought to do it is as follows:

First you have a header tank (higher than the sump), which fills with water change water fed by the RO unit, with its outlet the the sump on a float switch in the sumps final chamber with the float switch set at the working water level - similar to a ATO tank, so working by gravity. This header tank would have it's own overflow and a float switch on the RO inlet to turn off the RO unit once filled.

On water change you then have a pump in the first sump chamber, on a timer, and pump waste water out into a waste container with a float switch that turns the pump off when the container is full - just so you can get a measured waste amount each time. As the water level in the sump decreases, the float switch will let water from the water change header tank into the sump to replace that being extracted.

There would then be a pump in the waste water tank (also on a timer, set to a later time) to empty to waste water to the drain (or garden etc).

For additional fail safes I could add an overflow to the waste water container. I could also add a low level float valve in the sump to switch off the waste water extract pump if the level gets too low. The timer would also turn that pump off in any case to prevent it over running. That should prevent the pump draining the sump. I could also have a solenoid operated by a second float valve or level sensor on the fresh water tank outlet, to act as a failsafe in case the first float valve fails and get stuck open, with the sumps main overflow outlet acting as the final failsafe.

As far as I can tell with that system, if the waste extract pump fails to come on, no fresh water gets added eliminating that risk of sump overflow. If the waste extract pump gets stuck on, the timer should turn it off, or the low level sensor on the sump should turn it off if that fails. The only remaining risk, as far as I can tell, is that in the event of a failure, scheduled water changes aren't happening as planned.

That being said, there are likely risks and failure points I've missed - do you see any @ian_m (assuming you understand my rambling explanation).


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## ian_m (24 May 2021)

Wookii said:


> That being said, there are likely risks and failure points I've missed - do you see any @ian_m (assuming you understand my rambling explanation).


A diagram would be nice ?

Baffles and weirs in sumps are a must to compartmentalize the water, so basically it is not possible for the whole sump volume to end up in the tank or on the floor !!!.

Continuous water change systems I have seen tend to be "passive", in that water is added and excess overflows away, normally water is added to the main tank rather than sump.  Water is added to main tank, via continuous drip system, periodically pumped out of storage container or even a syphon system that when the storage container got full it just syphoned the tank load into main tank. Again no electrics, no valves, no pumps required to add water, but more importantly no electrics, no pumps etc required to keep water level constant.


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## aeneas (24 May 2021)

ian_m said:


> If sump pump fails/turns off/power cut, water drains from the pipework, raises in sump and drains to out of your overflow, thus you are losing "working water".
> 
> One way check valves never ever ever ever ever work reliably. You get a snail/plant/detritus stuck in them preventing them working, as well as seriously restricting flow. If you are intending on relying on them to prevent back syphoning and sump over filling....DONT. Use air gaps, weirs, water boxes etc to prevent back flow.



Agree with point #1 - my sketch does not show this well, but I already went away from constant dripping and then overflowing into the drain pipe as water exchange - I am now planning to use two float switches, controlled by GHL profilux and doing the water exchange in a controlled manner on a timer; the GHL will activate a small separate water pump to pump ~50L water into the drain pipe, then a solenoid valve will open to refill the 50L RO water back into the sump; a doser will take care that the RO water is remineralised. 

Regarding the "working water" I also agree with your point - so the adjustable-height-drain-to-sewage will actually be positioned quite high up - it will allow the sump to fill in with water from the overflow and still give some extra "buffer" space above it. I can tilt it up or down to fine-tune. This way it will prevent sump overflow in case of some kind of emergency (fail-safe) but will not impair the regular operations. I actually intend for the pump to stop or slow down each time we are feeding the fish to minimize water flow and allow the food to be consumed with less waste spreading through the tank, so the pump will probably stop quite regularly.

As for the return pipes, I did plan on using check valves... I see no other solution that would make sense. What other solution do you suggest? I don't really understand what did you mean bu air gaps/weirs etc. How would that help?



Wookii said:


> Just to add to Ian's excellent points, you can also lay the heaters down in the pump chamber, and have the pump raised up on a small stand so that the bottom of the pump intake is an inch or two above the heaters, so if the pump runs the sump dry the heaters will still be underwater. Additionally you can add a float switch to turn off the heaters if the water level drops too low - though you wouldn't want to be relying solely on a float switch as it can fail or clog, it adds an additional failsafe.


Indeed, the bottom float switch which will be used for AWC and connected to GHL Profilux can be used also as an "off" trigger for the heaters - that is a good idea!!


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## Wookii (24 May 2021)

ian_m said:


> A diagram would be nice ?
> 
> Baffles and weirs in sumps are a must to compartmentalize the water, so basically it is not possible for the whole sump volume to end up in the tank or on the floor !!!.
> 
> Continuous water change systems I have seen tend to be "passive", in that water is added and excess overflows away, normally water is added to the main tank rather than sump.  Water is added to main tank, via continuous drip system, periodically pumped out of storage container or even a syphon system that when the storage container got full it just syphoned the tank load into main tank. Again no electrics, no valves, no pumps required to add water, but more importantly no electrics, no pumps etc required to keep water level constant.



Very rough drawing.


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## ian_m (24 May 2021)

You have to be very careful using multiple timers and pumps.

Why are aren't you pumping waste water straight out to drain ?

Things to plan for are:

A lot of pumps are not happy if run dry. Some require water to be cooled and function properly. You need to prevent pumps running dry.
I used to run my filter pump on a timer. Stopped that as once or twice in a quite a few years it didn't start, just sat and buzzed. Power cycling fixed it.
How are setting pump rates ? Normally you design a system so that pump runs 100% and has bypasses to divert/let escape excess water ?
This is how you can balance water flows with non variable pump.


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## Wookii (24 May 2021)

ian_m said:


> You have to be very careful using multiple timers and pumps.
> 
> Why are aren't you pumping waste water straight out to drain ?



So I can guarantee to pump an exact amount of water for the water change - e.g. 40 litres removed, 40 litres new water added. If the pump just runs to the mains waste the pump output could potentially vary over time. It would also allow me to see visually that the process is happening as required.



ian_m said:


> Things to plan for are:
> 
> A lot of pumps are not happy if run dry. Some require water to be cooled and function properly. You need to prevent pumps running dry.



Are you referring to the pump in the waste water container? If so, yep, I'd get a pump with built in dry run protection, or use some other method to prevent the pump running dry.



ian_m said:


> I used to run my filter pump on a timer. Stopped that as once or twice in a quite a few years it didn't start, just sat and buzzed. Power cycling fixed it.



Interesting. I'd use decent quality pumps. If pumps don't restart after a power cycle, then that pretty much kills any automation ideas at the first fence.



ian_m said:


> How are setting pump rates ? Normally you design a system so that pump runs 100% and has bypasses to divert/let escape excess water ?
> This is how you can balance water flows with non variable pump.
> View attachment 169284



I'd use a DC pump, something like an EcoTech Marine Vectra or similar, with infinite control over the flow range.


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## aeneas (24 May 2021)

aeneas said:


> Agree with point #1 - my sketch does not show this well, but I already went away from constant dripping and then overflowing into the drain pipe as water exchange - I am now planning to use two float switches, controlled by GHL profilux and doing the water exchange in a controlled manner on a timer; the GHL will activate a small separate water pump to pump ~50L water into the drain pipe, then a solenoid valve will open to refill the 50L RO water back into the sump; a doser will take care that the RO water is remineralised.
> 
> Regarding the "working water" I also agree with your point - so the adjustable-height-drain-to-sewage will actually be positioned quite high up - it will allow the sump to fill in with water from the overflow and still give some extra "buffer" space above it. I can tilt it up or down to fine-tune. This way it will prevent sump overflow in case of some kind of emergency (fail-safe) but will not impair the regular operations. I actually intend for the pump to stop or slow down each time we are feeding the fish to minimize water flow and allow the food to be consumed with less waste spreading through the tank, so the pump will probably stop quite regularly.
> 
> ...


Don't want to break an interesting conversation   ...but coming back to my sump design - would the answers I gave ease your concerns or do you still see design flaws and would recommend further adjustments?
From what I can say now is that certainly the last glass baffle is not necessary, but other things I still think they make sense...?


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## aeneas (10 Jul 2021)

Picking up this thread again after a while... the build of the tank is tanking longer than I hoped, but now seems we have a likely delivery date end of July, so not too far away.
I am starting to work on my hardscape concepts as well as picking up the list of plants for the scape.
Choice of stocking with fish will follow soon.
As you can see below, I made a mockup of the actual size with styrofoam, bought crazy amount of wood and rocks and took a shot of recreating the Josh Sim's Congo concept with three "bush" areas and two paths in between. The two bush areas on the left are slightly closer and slightly smaller as to create an asymmetric position (not really golden ratio, but at least hinting at it). The left and right bush areas are slightly more at the front and the central is more at the back, leaning forward, creating plenty of shade areas underneath.
There will be more rocks and the whole background will be elevated with soil and sand. But at least this is a start...
Let me know what you think of the hardscape? Any comments / suggestions?

Secondly, I would very very much appreciate some feedback and input on the choice of plants. Please see my current idea of foreground (red), midground (green) and background (blue) plants below; I tried to give a rough idea where these could be positioned...
In particular I cannot truly decide what choices to make of the larger background plants... Echinodorus / Anubias / etc. and which ones? Also, I would really like to place a nice area of Rotalas - a combination of green and red H'ra etc. but again, not really entirely sure which ones and where.
Please see the current sketch below on top of the photo of the hardscape which I put together:





*(A) Foreground plants:*

Eleocharis parvula mini: 50x
Vesicularia dubyana (Christmas moss): 25x (to be glued on to rocks and smaller pebbles)
Anubias nana Petite / Bonsai: min. 15x
Hudrocotyle verticillata: 4x
Cryptocoryne parva: 8x

*(B) Midground plants*

Vesicularia ferriei (Weeping moss): min. 15x
Cryptocoryne Wenditii Green: 10x
Microsorum pteropus Trident: 6x
Bolbitis heudelotii: 4x
Hygrophilia pinnatifida: 6x
Bucephalandra: brown? red mini? dwarf green? how many?

*(C) Background plants*

Eleocharis acicularis: 10x
Cyperus helferi: 5x
Cryptocoryne Balansae?
Echinodorus: bleheri??, tricolor?? - yes/no, where & how many?
Anubias: barteri??, coffeefolia?? - yes/no, where & how many?
Rotala: rotundifolia green??, H'ra??, orange juice??, wallichii?? - yes/no, where & how many?
Aponogeton madagascariensis? I know this one likes cooler water but I love its looks...might try one or two in the corner and see how they perform

The plants are mainly green, but would love some bits of red here and there...
Finally, I would like to have some plants growing (a) as bacground plants reaching surface and possibly growing leaves out of the water - maybe even blooming occasionally? and (b) choosing some plants that can grow on the parts of the roots that stick outside the water so that there would be some plants growing there not submersed. What would you advise?

Also a top-view of the layout might be helpful so here is a photo of this as well:


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## aeneas (13 Jul 2021)

Ehm... seems most folks are on summer vacation already   ...any comments and suggestions on the choice of plants or the layout?


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## PARAGUAY (14 Jul 2021)

aeneas said:


> Ehm... seems most folks are on summer vacation already   ...any comments and suggestions on the choice of plants or the layout?


Discus require high temperatures and a lot of plants like it cooler. Just something to consider


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## aeneas (14 Jul 2021)

PARAGUAY said:


> Discus require high temperatures and a lot of plants like it cooler. Just something to consider


This is being considered... temperature will be 27C so this is (supposedly) reasonably well tolerated for many plants, providing that lighting & ferts are sorted well (which they will be). In the list above I do not think there are any temperature sensitive plants, other than Aponogeton.


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## Wookii (14 Jul 2021)

aeneas said:


> This is being considered... temperature will be 27C so this is (supposedly) reasonably well tolerated for many plants, providing that lighting & ferts are sorted well (which they will be). In the list above I do not think there are any temperature sensitive plants, other than Aponogeton.



Isn't that pretty low for Discus - I thought around 30 degrees was more typical?


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## aeneas (14 Jul 2021)

30 is where many breeders keep genetically "inbread" varieties... wilds in the nature are more hardy and 27 is quite standard for them during rainy season when water T is often as low as ~26C. They have been in quarantine in Brazil for 4 months and then in Portugal now for 6+ months all the time at 27C.
I even kept my German-bred discus always between 27-28 for 30+ years and only had a few times disease issues, mainly due to my sloppiness with quarantine when introducing new fish.


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## aeneas (30 Jul 2021)

Plants ordered... now choosing the fish! As you know, the Wild Disus are the main inhabitants here. But I want this to be a community tank so that there will be more stuff happening around various places and roots... from large to small. Here is my current thinking of the tankmates. Pls help me brainstorm. Cleaning crew sufficient?

*MAIN DISPLAY FISH*
•12x Trombetas / Batata / Irpixi Royal Wild Discus

*OTHER DISPLAY FISH*
•100x Cardinal Tetras
•10x Puntius denisonii (Denison Barb)
•8x Congo Tetras
•6x Electric Blue Acara
•6x Cockatoo Dwarf Cichlid (Apistogramma cacatuoides)
•6x Agassizi’s Dwarf Cichlid (Apistogramma Agassizi Double Red)
•6x German Blue Ram (Mikrogeophagus ramirezi)
•20 Rummynose Tetras?

*CLEANING CREW*
•30x Otocinclus
•10x Coridoras sterbai
•10x Corydoras trilineatus
•10x Coridoras aeneus CW010
•50x Amano Shrimp (XXL large ~5-7cm size)
•10x Clithon corona snails
•10x Neritina natalensis snails
 10x Vittina waigiensis snails


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## mort (30 Jul 2021)

Interesting fish choice. I'm not experience mixing fish with discus beyond the odd group of tetras so will except your knowledge with the community fish. The one thing that potentially stands out is the numbers which I think it's probably hard to plan with such a big tank and it might be a case that your list is a good starting point from which to adjust when stocking begins.
8 doesn't seem a very large group for Congo tetras if you are wanting to mix the sexes. Lots suggest a 3:1 female/male ratio to get the best display. I also think 20 rummy nose will likely just dissappear in the tank, you'd be better really upping that number. 

With the corydoras numbers I think you could up them to 15 per species because again in 1200l 10 might not look enough. I'm a cory fan so I'd up the numbers at the expense of the blue acara or denison barbs.


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## Wookii (31 Jul 2021)

It’s a huge tank, so it’s difficult to imagine the fish in it and how they will look. I would add them gradually so you can see what they look like together, swimming in the space. You may find it’s a case of ‘less is more’.

I agree with @mort, you want the Discus to take centre stage, and all other species to be complementary - I don’t think the Acara will be, they’ll be similar size to the Discus and detract from them.

Likewise too many different types and small shoals of tetra may not work so well, whereas larger shoals of a couple of species can look really effective. I’d personally start with the Discus, Cardinals and Corys, and live with them for a couple of weeks to see how they look, then maybe add a larger shoal of Congo’s if you think the tank will look better with the additional mid-water swimmers. I suspect that, along with a few Apisto’s will be just right without the other species.


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## MWood (31 Jul 2021)

Agree with all the above. The Denison barbs like it a little cooler, with Seriously fish suggesting a max of 25, so I think they would be a good species to swap for a larger number of tetras.


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## aeneas (24 Aug 2021)

Quick status update: the stand is in, the glass is in, the sump and installations half-way there. Intend to finish by end of the week, then scaping and planting over the weekend if all goes well. Looking good (IMO) except for the background foil which turned out too transparent... I wanted a more "milky" diffusing one that would not let through much of the background stuff. Will post more.


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## plantnoobdude (24 Aug 2021)

oh my..... that is the nicest looking cabinet inside i've seen. brilliant plumbing! bravo


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## bazz (24 Aug 2021)

Looking good mate, and looking forward to see it planted!


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## foxfish (24 Aug 2021)

Very impressive … What is in between the tanks glass floor and the metal stand?


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## aeneas (24 Aug 2021)

foxfish said:


> Very impressive … What is in between the tanks glass floor and the metal stand?


Very hard cross-laminated wood, finely polished to a smooth surface. I was thinking whether to add rubber / foam in between the wood and glass or not, but decided it was not necessary.


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## aeneas (24 Aug 2021)

Quick question: filter media in the sump? I intend to use coarse foam + ceramic bio media + fine foam.
The ceramic bio media will most likely be Eheim Substrate Pro. However for the foam I cannot decide yet; I have JBL foam available cheaply - could use 10ppi on one end and then several 30ppi on the other end. 
However reading the forums, people seem to be continuously raving about "Poret" foam... is it really any different? Would a Poret 30ppm foam be any better than a JBL 30ppm?


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## JellieTG (24 Aug 2021)

Bruh, that plumbing is insane. Great job with the stand looks amazing!


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## aeneas (27 Aug 2021)

Hi guys, crisis in the house!!!
Today I tested with the water to check the pipes and seals and before the water was 1/4 full the corner silicone seal started leaking!!!
The guys who made the aquarium said they tested it before delivery and this probably happened during transport. They say they can mend this by squirting some fresh silicone into the crack that was created… that this will seal the leak fully. That structurally the aquarium should hold the pressure and there is not structural damage - just a small leak. 
I am not sure I buy this story. Would you trust this? Would you trust just resealing with a fresh squirt of silicone or would you request complete reglueing? Sooo frustrating!!


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## mort (27 Aug 2021)

Structurally the tank is probably fine, meaning it won't just burst apart but that is a big leak for only a quarter full and I wouldn't accept a bit of silicon being squirted in there as a solution. You have to think whether you will ever feel comfortable with that volume of water in your house with a known weak point.


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## shangman (27 Aug 2021)

I personally would ask them for a complete reglue, you don't want to be lying in bed at night worrying about the tank leaking, which I think you would if they don't properly redo it, that's a LOT of water to leak out if things go wrong, even through a small hole. If you buy a custom tank and it immediately leaks then the product is faulty, whether it happened in transport or not it's their responsibility to make sure it works. I assume you spent proper £££ to get this tank and you deserve it to work without dangerous problems coming up the first time you fill it!


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## foxfish (27 Aug 2021)

How very disappointing that must be for you


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## aeneas (28 Aug 2021)

They agreed to take the glass apart and completely reseal again. Will extend the whole process for approx 2 weeks...


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## ScapingScotsman (28 Aug 2021)

Awww man, what a shame. How soon after it was put together was it water tested. Maybe it was done to early. I had tanks made many years ago and even after delivery I was always advised to wait a minimum of 14 days
What an epic tank though😁😁😁😁


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## shangman (28 Aug 2021)

That's great, I know it's frustrating that it's being delayed but it's worth it in the long run to make sure it's safe and perfect. You don't want to have done all this work for it to leak later on and ruin your house and your scape!


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## HarrietHippo (17 Sep 2021)

Definitely worth getting it done properly rather than doing a bodge job and stressing about it for the next few years.  Good luck with the rest of the project - looks fantastic.  Lucky fish.


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## aeneas (24 Sep 2021)

A quick update: tank resealed (completely) and this time looking good! 
Scaped and planted; here is a quick view... pls excuse the ugly stones which are used to keep the wood from floating until it soaks enough to stay submerged... also added lots of Tetra SafeStart bacteria as well as filter sponges and biomedia from my old 400L tank so cycling should hopefully not take too long. Added some fish from my old tank to get the "biology" of the tank going... Let me know what you think!
Now I need to figure out how to set-up these Mitras lights to have a good lighting schedule. They are amazing lights but the interface is not very user friendly to be honest 







and a shot of the sump area... still a few items missing, but getting there:


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## shangman (24 Sep 2021)

Congratulations!!! It looks great


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## Deano3 (24 Sep 2021)

Glad got sorted and peice of mind and tank looks great with some serious kit  

Sent from my SM-T595 using Tapatalk


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## MichaelJ (24 Sep 2021)

Wow! Congrats!


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## bazz (25 Sep 2021)

Looks very nice. keep us posted!


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## Wookii (28 Dec 2021)

@aeneas how are you getting on with this tank? What did you sort out in the end for your automated water changes?

I’ve just ordered this product for my forth coming larger tank, and thought back to your original query:






						Kamoer X2SR Pro Water Change Pump | D-D The Aquarium Solution
					






					www.theaquariumsolution.com
				




Also @X3NiTH, how are you getting on with the Innovitech X-Filter, I assume you’ve been living with it for a while now? - I’m thinking of getting one for a fourth coming sump system


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## X3NiTH (28 Dec 2021)

Embarrassed to say I haven’t got the tank I’m intended using it on set up yet, impetus is gathering and I have the parts I need to modify my outlets to allow me to service the unit easily. It’s still the best filter roller out there according to others I talk to regularly who have been through a few of the other brands. Does the job and keeps on trucking apparently, not yet heard any negative feedback.

Red Sea are bringing out a filter roller soon but it’s not a compact unit, they’ve missed a trick by not building ones to fit their kit, I have a Red Sea reefer 170 and the last thing I want to be doing is removing the internal sump baffles to fit one, I’d rather have the one that BRS built for the 170 that fits without modification but they’re not available in the UK which is a shame.


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## aeneas (10 Mar 2022)

Wookii said:


> @aeneas how are you getting on with this tank? What did you sort out in the end for your automated water changes?
> 
> Also @X3NiTH, how are you getting on with the Innovitech X-Filter, I assume you’ve been living with it for a while now? - I’m thinking of getting one for a fourth coming sump system



Sorry guys for such a long period of silence. It has been a crazy period in my work/private life and was hardly able to keep up with it all. The tank is set-up, the fish seem to be quite happy, but I cannot get algae under control. Will write more in the coming (long) post. This is just a quick reply to the two questions:
- I did go with the Innovitech X-filter; it is working well and if set-up properly is not used up too quickly. One role kept me for ~6 months and I just had to replace the 1st one last week. So pretty good in terms of economics. Whether it really adds much in terms of prefiltering, I do not know honestly... the sump does a good job overall.


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## aeneas (10 Mar 2022)

Hi all,
it has been way too long since my last post. It has been a crazy period in my work/private life and was hardly able to keep up with it all. In short, the tank is set-up, the fish seem to be quite happy, but I cannot get algae under control.

The final set-up is as follows:

Computer control: GHL Profilux 4
Sensors / probes: pH, Temperature, Conductivity and Redox
Pump: Red Dragon 3 Speedy 100W
Lights: 4x GHL Mitras LX7004
Sump with simple horizontal flow; lots of mechanical and bio-filtration media and peat
Innovitech X-filter as a pre-filter
CO2 electronics by CO2Art
CO2 diffusion in a large Cerges-style reactor
UV filter by VIQUA model VH410
Eheim e400 heater and Eheim Pro 400 air pump
AWC with reverse osmosis (5-stage with an active pump etc.)
remineralization of the RO water using Seachem equilibrium
***I also do have a GHL pump with 4x pump heads for automatic fertilization and 2x GHL floater sensors for AWC, but these are not activated yet... no time

Water parameters (using JBL Pro Aquatest kit):
NO2 (0.15 ppm), NO3 (5 ppm), NH4 (<0.05 ppm), PO4 (0.05 ppm), Fe (0), KH (4.5), pH (6.4), T (28), Conductivity (351uS), Redox (205mV); if tables are correct, the calculation of CO2 from KH and pH, the CO2 should be at ~50ppm - is this correct?

Fertilizers, minerals etc.:
Because I used huge amounts of nutrient rich Tropica soil, I figured for some time I would not need to add significant fertilization, so I only add several caps of the Seachem Flourish to the water and remineralize with Seachem Equilibrium to reach ~300us conductivity.
The lights are up for 10h, of which 2h are very dark morning/evening light and only 4h at max light and the rest is ramp up and ramp down.

In short, the summary so far:

as you know, the aquarium build was being delayed, the wild discus were waiting to be shipped in Portugal (Santarem); to speed up the cycling process I added a few bottles of Tetra Safestart bacteria and the filter media from my old tank to the sump. Cycling went incredibly fast and within ~5 days or so the entire cycle completed and stabilised. However, adding old filter media was a BIG mistake! Although I took great care there were no snails, there must have been eggs in the filter media - I now have a major snail infestation. In the old tank the snails were kept in check by clown loaches, but in this discus tank I decided NOT to have clown loaches - they are just a bit too hectic for the peaceful scenery... *what should I do to get rid of them?*
I kept cycling the tank for another ~2 weeks, slowly adding the small fish and then the 12 wild discus from Santarem Discus.
the tank also has a support crew of many Ottos, various Neritina and Corona snails and I also bought ~50 XXL Amano Shrimp
strangely, contrary to what most people said, the Neritina and Corona snails happily stay in the tank (open top) and never venture out...
however, I lost at least half of the Amano Shrimp by them choosing to jump out and I was finding them all over the place - even 10m away from the tank 
I saw once that a group of Discus attached a shrimp alive and chewed him up... but other than that, the shrimp do not seem to be a major target for Discus and are left alone

Problems:

soon after cycling completed, algae started appearing. My worst nightmare are the "hair algae" - they completely fill up the tank within 7 to 10 days; I need to continuously remove them. They killed many plants already - most moss was destroyed by these algae, as well as many of the nice Buce plants and H'ra is continuously under attack. It seems whenever the hair algae overgrow, all the Discus get darker colour - they really are not liking something in the water... as soon as I clean up the aquarium from the algae, the Discus regain their full colour, even without a major water change... so strange.
I also have some BBA algae, but these are not such a major issue
occasionally a small patch of cyanobacteria (blue-green algae) appear, but again, these are not a major issue and can be removed quickly
...it is really the hair algae that are a huge menace and I have no idea what to do about them. Clearly the small group of remaining Amanos are no match for them and I do think the Amanos stick to the hidden areas in the roots so that they are protected from Discus... they do not venture out much.

Below are some photos to give you some idea of the tank and the fish at the moment. I did not have time to make really good ones, but will make some more effort in the future. If you can help with some suggestions on how to better establish the right ecosystem and balance of nutrients, ferts, CO2 etc. to reach the more suitable environment for plants and less suitable for the algae, that would be greatly appreciated.

The layout:






A detail on the left:






The magnificent wilds:





Some individual photos:
































And now the uglies... these are the algae that are getting worse and worse... literally they overgrow the ENTIRE tank within 7 to 10 days and the fish can somehow feel something that the algae are producing as they become dark and less active when the algae overgrow... WHAT TO DO??? I do not have an "overgrowth" picture at the moment, but you know how it is... I'll try to take one next time before I am cleaning.


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## aeneas (10 Mar 2022)

One thing I forgot to mention... I have no CO2 control. Considering the large tank, I just have a continuous open flow of bubbles - not a massive speed but a continuous drizzle. I just had no time to play with tuning. 
So I do realise most likely my poor plant growth and algae overgrowth is due to inproper CO2 + fert balance, but would really appreciate some tips to get me started on the right path to solve this problem.


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## Wookii (10 Mar 2022)

They are stunning Discus!


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## Conort2 (10 Mar 2022)

aeneas said:


> Hi all,
> it has been way too long since my last post. It has been a crazy period in my work/private life and was hardly able to keep up with it all. In short, the tank is set-up, the fish seem to be quite happy, but I cannot get algae under control.
> 
> The final set-up is as follows:
> ...


They’re lovely wilds, special fish there. If I’m honest I’d do away with trying to make this high tech and concentrate on the fish. They’d look great with just driftwood and a few easy plants.


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## aeneas (11 Mar 2022)

Conort2 said:


> They’re lovely wilds, special fish there. If I’m honest I’d do away with trying to make this high tech and concentrate on the fish. They’d look great with just driftwood and a few easy plants.


Haha...  I know. But this is not an option at the moment... I really want to make this work as a nature aquarium. If all fails after a year or two of working on it, then I may give in, but not before trying to do as much as possible.
So if you guys can help out figuring out how to establish the right parameters for these algae to go away and for the plants to grow better, that would be very appreciated!


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## Wookii (11 Mar 2022)

aeneas said:


> figured for some time I would not need to add significant fertilization





aeneas said:


> The lights are up for 10h, of which 2h are very dark morning/evening light and only 4h at max light and the rest is ramp up and ramp down.





aeneas said:


> I have no CO2 control



I suspect those are your issues right there. Too much light, too little/incomplete fertilisation, and unknown CO2 levels.

I’d turn down the lights, and maybe reduce the lighting period. It’s always difficult to tell from a photo as the camera self adjusts the exposure, but it looks very bright to me. You can also get a load of floating plants - they quickly add to the plant mass and help cut light to the tank,

You also need to get yourself a comprehensive fertiliser. On such a large tank long term you want to be mixing your own with dry salts, but for now get an off the shelf one to tide you over if you are so busy. Seachem flourish is not a complete fertiliser.

You then need to get a handle on where your CO2 is at - it could well be fine and consistent, but without a pH profile and/or drop check inspection, you’re shootings in the dark.


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## aeneas (11 Mar 2022)

Wookii said:


> I suspect those are your issues right there. Too much light, too little/incomplete fertilisation, and unknown CO2 levels.
> 
> I’d turn down the lights, and maybe reduce the lighting period. It’s always difficult to tell from a photo as the camera self adjusts the exposure, but it looks very bright to me. You can also get a load of floating plants - they quickly add to the plant mass and help cut light to the tank,
> 
> ...





> lights


I will try to tune down the lights a bit - perhaps 8h total with 2h peak.



> fertiliser


What would you recommend as a comprehensive solution that is available in Europe?



> CO2


Would a drop checker be informative in such a soft and acidic water? If I understand correctly, that one only responds to pH, but the CO2 would in a way be dependent on both KH and pH or not?


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## Wookii (11 Mar 2022)

aeneas said:


> I will try to tune down the lights a bit - perhaps 8h total with 2h peak.



I don't personally like long ramps at the start and end of the photo period. You can mess around with sunrises and sunsets once the tank is mature and established - when a tank is new I think consistency and stability helps more. I tend to use a 10 minute ramp for the benefit of the livestock, and then sit the rest of the time at my target light level. For your system, I would also reduce the max output significantly. When you say "2hr peak" is that with the light at 100%? If so, reduce that peak down to 50-60% perhaps, to start with until you get the algae under control.



aeneas said:


> What would you recommend as a comprehensive solution that is available in Europe?



In the UK we have access to TNC Complete which is about our best bang for buck on an all in one fert. If that isn't available in Slovenia, perhaps look out for APT Complete EI. NilocG Thrive is common in the US, so that might be an option if it is available in your country.



aeneas said:


> Would a drop checker be informative in such a soft and acidic water? If I understand correctly, that one only responds to pH, but the CO2 would in a way be dependent on both KH and pH or not?



No, a drop checker works so well because its liquid is completely independent of the tank water - so the parameters of the tank water become irrelevant.

The indicator liquid is a set 4dKH, and the drop checker has an air gap between that liquid and the tank water. CO2 diffuses across the air-gap until the indicator liquid is in CO2 equilibrium with the tank water, and the resulting colour change will then tell you the level of dissolved CO2 in the tank water. It produces a consistent, repeatable and reliable visual indication of CO2 level - the only downside to it is it can take up to 2 hours for the gas to reach equilibrium so there is in effect a time delay. The way to account for that is to ensure the gas comes on early enough to ensure the drop checker solution is green when the lights come on.


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## Conort2 (11 Mar 2022)

aeneas said:


> Haha...  I know. But this is not an option at the moment... I really want to make this work as a nature aquarium. If all fails after a year or two of working on it, then I may give in, but not before trying to do as much as possible.
> So if you guys can help out figuring out how to establish the right parameters for these algae to go away and for the plants to grow better, that would be very appreciated!


Sorry that wasn’t of much use! I’m only good at growing bba since I got my large tank unfortunately 🙃


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## Djoko Sauza (12 Mar 2022)

Wookii said:


> You can also get a load of floating plants - they quickly add to the plant mass and help cut light to the tank,


I would recommend floating plants as well. It is easy, foolproof and brings many immediate benefits.

You'll be able to tell if you are nutrient limited by looking at your floaters. Since they can get CO2 from the air, if they are not healthy it means you have a nutrient issue.

And, in my experience, algae really takes a beating when floating plants start to rapidly multiply.


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## aeneas (12 Mar 2022)

Djoko Sauza said:


> I would recommend floating plants as well. It is easy, foolproof and brings many immediate benefits.
> 
> You'll be able to tell if you are nutrient limited by looking at your floaters. Since they can get CO2 from the air, if they are not healthy it means you have a nutrient issue.
> 
> And, in my experience, algae really takes a beating when floating plants start to rapidly multiply.


That is a good point. I do have floating plants (Limnobium laevigatum), however they get quickly overwhelmed by algae (in their roots the algae multiply like crazy) so I keep throwing them away and only keep a few. It is true that initially the floaters were nicely green, now they are getting more yellowish. So not as healthy as they used to be. They still multiply quite fast.


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## Wookii (12 Mar 2022)

aeneas said:


> That is a good point. I do have floating plants (Limnobium laevigatum), however they get quickly overwhelmed by algae (in their roots the algae multiply like crazy) so I keep throwing them away and only keep a few. It is true that initially the floaters were nicely green, now they are getting more yellowish. So not as healthy as they used to be. They still multiply quite fast.



You can just remove the roots, and any bad leaves, and they will grow new ones of both - save you having to throw the whole plant away.

Pistia stratiotes (Dwarf water lettuce) is another you could add - possibly one of my favourite floating plants, that will spread rapidly.


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## MichaelJ (12 Mar 2022)

+1 on the recommendation on floating plants to provide cover and suck up waste and lower light intensity.

Hi @aeneas your tank is beautiful and those Discus are stunning!   One question: how often and how much WC do you do?

I've had adult Discus in a big tank on a couple of occasions back in the day. These guys are incredibly messy!!  I am not necessarily saying your tank is overstocked (12 adults is tethering even for a 1200 L tank), but they do require A LOT of maintenance including massive water changes - thats where I personally failed with mine.  You algae problem could easily be compounded by organic waste buildup.

Cheers,
Michael


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## Konsa (12 Mar 2022)

Hi
With Limnobium you can just cut the roots clean off if they are algae infested instead of throwing them out.They sprout new ones rather quickly. 
Unfortunately you have too many variables to play with to find the culprit for your issues. 
Main ones being unknown CO2 levels,high temperature , insufficient nutrients and sensitive fish while your lights seems rather strong. 
I will second the post suggesting to go low tech and focus on the fish with strong hardscape and carefully chosen plants  that can handle the high temperature. 
Regards Konstantin


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## PARAGUAY (12 Mar 2022)

The fish look well magnificent got to say it. I looked after a Discus fish house a while back and his Wild Discus tank was nowhere near as pristine as the other tanks mainly stem plants growing up and out the surface. I don't think he used much in the way of plant food either relying on the fish to fertiliser the plants.


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