# One for Clive.



## Henry (22 May 2013)

Assuming that liquid carbon supplements only have around 25% efficiency of their gas counterparts, and assuming also that glutaraldehyde is highly chemically unstable in water, would it be possible to dose way over the suggested dosage if the doses themselves were spaced throughout the day? If the glutaraldehyde was allowed time to decompose in the water column, maybe another dose inside 12 hours would be feasible?

I ask this question, because I may have to take down my pressurised CO2 at some point in the near future, but I have already found liquid CO2 to be insufficient. I'm wondering if I could double dose in the morning AND in the evening, on the grounds that the glut. might have broken down some time between each dose?

Just surmising...


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## niru (23 May 2013)

Hi

should be ok, though check this

Buyer BeAware: SeaChem Excel 

take it with a pinch of salt (eating variety though  ).

I know a lot of plants suffer with high concentrations, and could imagine bacteria/fish/inverts also getting adversely affected, though dont have any concrete examples myself.

Maybe googling for glut decomposition etc might help.

cheers


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## Alastair (23 May 2013)

I would have thought that double dosing twice in one day would be a bit excessive and would have a negative effect on fish and shrimp. Besides, doesn't excel and easy carbos benefits last for around 4 hours or so after dosing.  If so then your double dosing in the morning wouldn't be as efficient if at all as your lights will be off. If anything all youd only be getting its algae reducing benefits. .could be wrong though

Sent from my GT-I9305 using Tapatalk 2


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## ceg4048 (23 May 2013)

Hi Henry,
		   We really don't know the exact decomposition rate and we don't know what the decomposition products are, not only in the water column, but in the animals, plants and microorganisms that come into contact with the gluteraldehyde. So it's really difficult to tell exactly how much and at what time the extra dose can be added within the 24 hour period. Sorry, but it'll be a matter of trial and error. What might be able to shed light is to use a plant known to have a low tolerance as a test bed. That might give us a clue at least as to how multiple dosing affects other plants and animals.

Cheers,


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## Aquadream (23 May 2013)

Some plants have very high tolerance to Glutaraldehide such as HC. HC actually likes it a lot.
I used overdose 4-6 times without problem for the HC, but Staurogyne did not like it. Also the fish seem to handle this overdose without any problem.


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## niru (23 May 2013)

My Diplis diandra hated it like venom.... It always does.. 

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## GHNelson (23 May 2013)

Aquadream said:


> Also the fish seem to handle this overdose without any problem.


This is not the case in my experience....... if you have a large plant mass and a high fish population per aquarium size and overdose with Glut/liquid Carbon you will stress your inhabitants...there could be a few reasons for this reaction.
You should keep to the recommended dose.. especially if you have fish or shrimp.....
Cheers
hoggie


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## ceg4048 (23 May 2013)

Each plant and animal has a specific ppm tolerance level, beyond which, the chemical, (any chemical) becomes toxic. None of us are comparing apples-to-apples. No one knows exactly what level of concentration and other factors, such as temperature, they are comparing themselves to. That's why some dose high levels and have no problems while others have issues with lower dosage, even when comparing the same plant species.

The amount of water in the tank determines to a great extent the concentration level. If there are a lot of plants and rocks, the amount of water is lower and the concentration higher, but the usage rate is also higher, so the concentration level falls at a different rate than a tank with fewer plants. If the tank has more microbes then the chemical attacks more of them and the concentration level falls more so than if the tank had less pollution, but then the fish are being stress by the pollution as well as by the glut. If the lighting is higher than in another tank that affects the uptake rate. There are so many different interacting factors, everyone will have a slightly different experience because their tank system will be slightly different.

As mentioned before, we don't even know is the concentration level falls linearly or whether it follows some other shape, so we can't even tell how long critical exposures are being experienced. It's probably a better idea to stick to the bottle suggested dosage until you can observe the effects.

In any case the plants care about high CO2 in the beginning of the photoperiod. That's when the dosing counts the most. Adding more much later in the day may not add that much value, but it's certainly worth a try in a fishless tank.

Cheers,


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## Aquadream (23 May 2013)

hogan53 said:


> This is not the case in my experience....... if you have a large plant mass and a high fish population per aquarium size and overdose with Glut/liquid Carbon you will stress your inhabitants...
> Cheers
> hoggie


I don't believe in urban legends, but only in facts. Stressing the plants and inhabitants is a point of concentartion described often in ppm, not a large mass in a small tank. You see it does not matter how many pieces of fish and stems of plants you have in any given tank. The important thing is what is the concentration of the substance (Easy carbo etc)  in the water column and if this given concentration for a given period of time is harmfull for the aquatic inhabitants or not.

I have 4 fish species and CRS in my tank. I don't see them stressed in any way. In fact the CRS breed like a plague despite the Easy Carbo over dose, which by some believes supposed to be detrimental.
It is not the first time I over dose Easy Carbo and have not seen big problems yet.

It all depends on what kind of fish, plants and other inhabitants are in the tank and what is that they can tolerate.


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## GHNelson (24 May 2013)

As mentioned by Clive......every aquarium is unique in there own set-up so you can't compere like for like.
I have witnessed fish being stressed with the double dosing of Glut/Liquid Carbon..in my own aquarium...and that is a fact, not a Urban myth.
So be wary when dosing Liquid Carbon...as you would with pressurised C02.
Cheers
hoggie


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## Spnl (24 May 2013)

Hi
I would suggest great care if overdosing, both for the sake of your fish and yourself. I discovered through this forum that "liquid carbon" is actually glutaraldehyde. I used to use this as a fixative for electron microscopy; it very effectively kills and preserves living tissue of any sort, that is why it is used as a disinfectant, embalming fluid, algicide etc.
There can be no dispute that you could poison your fish and filters if you overdose, but how much you would have to add to do this I don't know. I don't use it because I can't get over the idea of adding fixative to my tank, but others obviously use it with great success. It seems odd to me that folks fret about chlorine in tap water then add glut to their tanks voluntarily!! But that is just me.
It is also important to realise that while glut and co2 are to an extent interchangeable as far as photosynthesis is concerned, that is where the similarity ends. Toxicity, algicide effects etc are completely different.  Don't expect to see evidence of overdosing "liquid carbon" in the same way as you would with excess co2.
One last thing, take care yourself with it. Glut is acutely toxic in high doses, but it also causes skin sensitisation. The pre-diluted forms sold to aquarists are obviously not acutely toxic. however, a colleague of mine developed very severe skin lesions on her hands, despite always wearing gloves when using glut. She used much higher concentrations of course, but the point about sensitisation is that you don't high doses. Dipping hands in water that contains glut on a regular basis worries me.
But you can (obviously) use it without any problems.


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## Ian Holdich (24 May 2013)

Aquadream said:


> Some plants have very high tolerance to Glutaraldehide such as HC. HC actually likes it a lot.
> .



Could you provide evidence for this? Preferably not anadotal.


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## Aquadream (24 May 2013)

Ian Holdich said:


> Could you provide evidence for this? Preferably not anadotal.


 I already did. I stated that I used Easy Carbo over dose in my tank currently. 4 times the recommended dose for weeks at the time in attempt to combat GSA. It worked well untill i finished the Easy carbo. Now it is all back to "normal" with GSA. Staurogyne sp. suffered a lot of damage from this treatment. HC was doing really well.
Yesterday I got out of the tank 23 CRS bearing eggs to hatch in another tank so the fish would not eat the small ones. All of the fish is in top shape.
This should be enough evidence that few days exposure to Easy Carbo overdose is not as detrimental to shrimp and fish as some believe it is.
In my scape " I was there" ~280 IAPLC 2011 I used double of the recommended dose of Easy Carbo for the entire perion of 3 months while running the scape. The scape started with 30 Red Cherry shrimps and in the end of the 3 months period I got out of this tank 220 of the Red Cherry in perfect shape. Not one dead fish and all plants in very good shape. In a manner of speaking you could say that this was an Easy Carbo set up. 


I do not have any documented or recorded evidence of any kind, but in the tank from the above picture I did not have any way to keep the rocks and sand clean in conditions of very high light (3 x 54Watts w reflector 12 cm above water surface, 200L aprox iluminated volume) other than a lot of Easy Carbo.
Glutaraldehyde seems to be more of a problem for most snails. The Red Ramshorn was having weak shells, but that was also the case with them in my CRS tanks where I DO NOT use Easy Carbo. So the reason for this can be as much in the Easy carbo as it would be a result of low water hardness.


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## viktorlantos (24 May 2013)

Ian Holdich said:


> Could you provide evidence for this? Preferably not anadotal.


 
HC is fine unless you inject the Carbo directly to the carpet. Then it will burn.
But i also confirm that using carbo with CO2 on an HC carpet tank boost the growth a lot.
Some other carpet plant like Eleocharis is more sensitive. But most of the carpet plant burn if you dose the carbo directly to them.

Some report that vallis hate carbo i've seen above that didiplis too. I can't confirm that. These plants mostly light demanding. So they die more often if the light is low or they are in shade.

I do use carbo on most of our tanks. But if the liquid touch the plants someway like an overgrown stems or injected to the carpet, they usually burn. No need 3-4 times overdosage, but even in the factory recommendation.

If the water moves it has less effect.


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## Antoni (24 May 2013)

I tend to overdose as well and HC love it. Riccia does not. It just dies. Fish and shrimps are fine. But start thinking whether we should use it or not, because of it nasty nature....


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## Ian Holdich (24 May 2013)

I agree HC does appear to like carbos, I just wondered whether there was any 'actual' evidence of this being the case. I have read of HC melting with spot dosing, as viktor describes.

I stopped using carbos a while back...due to worry s on health.


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## GHNelson (25 May 2013)

Aquadream said:


> I already did. I stated that I used Easy Carbo over dose in my tank currently. 4 times the recommended dose for weeks at the time in attempt to combat GSA. It worked well untill i finished the Easy carbo. Now it is all back to "normal" with GSA. Staurogyne sp. suffered a lot of damage from this treatment. HC was doing really well.
> Yesterday I got out of the tank 23 CRS bearing eggs to hatch in another tank so the fish would not eat the small ones. All of the fish is in top shape.
> This should be enough evidence that few days exposure to Easy Carbo overdose is not as detrimental to shrimp and fish as some believe it is.
> In my scape " I was there" ~280 IAPLC 2011 I used double of the recommended dose of Easy Carbo for the entire perion of 3 months while running the scape. The scape started with 30 Red Cherry shrimps and in the end of the 3 months period I got out of this tank 220 of the Red Cherry in perfect shape. Not one dead fish and all plants in very good shape. In a manner of speaking you could say that this was an Easy Carbo set up.
> ...


 


hogan53 said:


> This is not the case in my experience....... if you have a large plant mass and a high fish population per aquarium size and overdose with Glut/liquid Carbon you will stress your inhabitants...(there could be a few reasons for this reaction).Unknown.
> You should keep to the recommended dose.. especially if you have fish or shrimp.....
> Cheers
> hoggie


 


Hi
I wouldn't regard the above  aquarium as a planted jungle...or overly stocked with fish too my eyes.
Cheers
hoggie


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## Aquadream (25 May 2013)

hogan53 said:


> Hi
> I wouldn't regard the above aquarium as a planted jungle...or overly stocked with fish too my eyes.
> Cheers
> hoggie


 Well I feel bad now that all examples I have given does not fit your "academical" aproach to this matter.
However chemical conditions in aquarium are not measured by jungle appearances and/or over stocked small tanks, BUT BY concentartion in PPM.
Weather you will have 1000 fish in a tank or just two they all going to get the same responce to any given chemical.

Needless to mention that this post was an answer to another enquiry.


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## Aquadream (25 May 2013)

Ian Holdich said:


> I agree HC does appear to like carbos, I just wondered whether there was any 'actual' evidence of this being the case. I have read of HC melting with spot dosing, as viktor describes.
> 
> I stopped using carbos a while back...due to worry s on health.


 
Any plant without exseption burns when spot dosed with Easy Carbo (Glutaraldehide). This chemical compound is used in medical parctice as a very strong desinfectant. One can not expect any other outcome if Easy carbo etc is applied by spot dosing unless the concentartion is low enough.

Some plants like it in high dosage, other can not tolerate it even in low dosage.


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## GHNelson (26 May 2013)

The reaction i have witnessed is fish gasping at the top of the surface after dosing Liquid Carbon/Glutaraldehide.
Now I stated that there could be a few reasons for this..all unknown.
One could be a reaction between Glutaraldehide and Oxygen within the aquarium....its by obverastion that we can alert others if they have similar set-ups to be careful when dosing this chemical.
I'm going to leave it a that.
hoggie


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