# Iron deficiency and which chelator do I need?



## Beaker (30 Mar 2021)

It is looking like I have an iron deficiency and I am trying to decide which chelator I need. I have a ph of 7.9 when the lights are out and a ph of 6.5 when the lights are on. 

I have been dosing DTPA iron after the lights go out and I am dosing .3ppm a week. 

I was having an iron deficiency before and I chanced from ETPA to DTPA and it fixed it. Now I am wondering if I need to go to EDDHA or get an RO unit. 

Can I dose DTPA when the CO2 is on and the ph is 6.5 or does it not work that way? 

(I'm confident that it is a nutrient problem and not a CO2 problem because it is affecting my floating plants)

Is there also a way to keep the dosing lines clean and algae-free?


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## Sammy Islam (30 Mar 2021)

Hello,
I would Ideally dose the DTPA before the lights come and when PH is lowest from the addition of CO2. I think DTPA starts degrading around PH7.4


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## Zeus. (30 Mar 2021)

Beaker said:


> Can I dose DTPA when the CO2 is on and the ph is 6.5 or does it not work that way?



Yes you can But Fe DTPA is light sensitive however plants will have their fill in a couple of hours so you should be fine dosing when lights come on and pH is lowest, with a pH of 6.5 you should be fine with EDTA. it is a good idea to blackout the fert dosing line with Fe DTPA in it as it will stop it photo degrading before it lands in the tank.


Beaker said:


> Is there also a way to keep the dosing lines clean and algae-free?



Yes, 
1. Have and air gap between the dosing pipes and the tank water, this will help in many ways and in your pic it seems they are in the water which is a big NO-NO. If they are in the water the lines will need a really good clean or replace the tubing IMO. I have never had algae in mine, mould yes, Black out micro line if using Fe DTPA ( black insulation tape will do. I would dump all the ferts that have passed your pump if your pump has four rollers, if your pumps has two rollers I would dump the lot good clean, disinfect and freash batch. Store esp Micros in Dark ( best both in dark IMO)
2. Acidifying the micro ferts will help reduce the mould and stabilise the Fe also Ascorbic acid (E300) 1.0gram per Litre  Potassium sorbate (E202) 0.5gram per litre

May also be worth checking your Mg levels as Mg deficiency can look like Fe deficiency - easiest way to check it is to toss in teaspoon of epsom salts for every 100litres of Water change weekly for a couple of months. Checking your local water report help 

A Full tank shot always helps also


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## tiger15 (30 Mar 2021)

Best to alternate two types of iron, DTPA iron and Gluconate iron, to assure bio availability under variable conditions.  Gluconate is not pH or light sensitive, but short half life.


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## Beaker (30 Mar 2021)

I'm dosing 1ppm of Mg a week. I did ask the water company about mg and calcium and I don't remember the levels but they were about equal. But we have a salt-free water softener and I don't know how that affects planted tanks. (I researched it and couldn't find anything)

Thank for the info on lines on auto dosers. I will do a good cleaning and replace the solutions. The solutions are in the dark but the lines are not.

I might go back to plantex csm+b because my ph gets low enough for it. I haven't been dosing any other micros besides iron and boron.


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## Wookii (31 Mar 2021)

Beaker said:


> Thank for the info on lines on auto dosers. I will do a good cleaning and replace the solutions. The solutions are in the dark but the lines are not.



As @Zeus. says, DTPA chelated iron could be breaking down in the clear tubing before it enters the aquarium. I use this stuff for my micro dosing lines:

Amazon product


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## tiger15 (31 Mar 2021)

Wookii said:


> As @Zeus. says, DTPA chelated iron could be breaking down in the clear tubing before it enters the aquarium. I use this stuff for my micro dosing lines:
> 
> Amazon product



I don’t think it will make a difference.  You dose DTPA iron during photo period, and the chelation is subject to photo break down  anyway.  On the other hand, lighting can photo reduce Fe3 to Fe2, making iron more bio available.



			https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01904168209362962?journalCode=lpla20


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## Wookii (31 Mar 2021)

tiger15 said:


> I don’t think it will make a difference.  You dose DTPA iron during photo period, and the chelation is subject to photo break down  anyway.  On the other hand, lighting can photo reduce Fe3 to Fe2, making iron more bio available.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01904168209362962?journalCode=lpla20



I don't - I dose micros about 2-3 hours before the photo period to allow some absorption before light on. 

It might not be breaking down the DTPA chelate in the tubing, I have no way of testing, but on a 60 litre tank, say you're dosing 10ml of micros, you probably have a large chunk of that sitting in the clear tubing for 24 hours under the entire lighting period. If you've gone to the effort of buying DTPA iron and making up a solution, it just makes sense to me to avoid the possible risk, and preventing unnecessary light exposure.


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## tiger15 (31 Mar 2021)

Wookii said:


> I don't - I dose micros about 2-3 hours before the photo period to allow some absorption before light on.
> 
> It might not be breaking down the DTPA chelate in the tubing, I have no way of testing, but on a 60 litre tank, say you're dosing 10ml of micros, you probably have a large chunk of that sitting in the clear tubing for 24 hours under the entire lighting period. If you've gone to the effort of buying DTPA iron and making up a solution, it just makes sense to me to avoid the possible risk, and preventing unnecessary light exposure.


Are you sure plants can uptake nutrients before light on.  I was under the assumption that plants only uptake nutrients during active photosynthesis.


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## Wookii (31 Mar 2021)

tiger15 said:


> Are you sure plants can uptake nutrients before light on.  I was under the assumption that plants only uptake nutrients during active photosynthesis.



That's what I've seen advised by both @X3NiTH and @dw1305 -



X3NiTH said:


> Dosing Micro in the dark gives plants a chance to uptake a bigger dose of Iron before the lights come on which will photodegrade the associated chelate (APFUK Micro is EDTA) dropping out the Iron.





dw1305 said:


> You can feed when you like, nutrient uptake occurs all the time. . . .


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## X3NiTH (31 Mar 2021)

As others have said blackout the lines and preferentially dose the Micro before lights on, increases the chances of maximal Fe availability for the plants. I was using white opaque RO tubing for my lines then moved to wrapping in tinfoil but eventually swapped to the Fluval black tubing posted above, much better!


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## Mr.Shenanagins (1 Apr 2021)

tiger15 said:


> Are you sure plants can uptake nutrients before light on.  I was under the assumption that plants only uptake nutrients during active photosynthesis.


If you think about it, plants are mostly water right? If your tank water is saturated with nutrients, it’s inevitably going to be absorbed by the plants. That’s how I look at it at least in a less scientific fashion.


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## dw1305 (1 Apr 2021)

Hi all,


Wookii said:


> That's what I've seen advised by both @X3NiTH and @dw1305 -





Mr.Shenanagins said:


> If your tank water is saturated with nutrients, it’s inevitably going to be absorbed by the plants.





tiger15 said:


> Are you sure plants can uptake nutrients before light on. I was under the assumption that plants only uptake nutrients during active photosynthesis.


I think the difference is between "passive uptake", <"which occurs all the time"> and is driven by the concentration gradient across the plant cell membranes, and <"active uptake">, which is driven by photosynthesis.

cheers Darrel


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## tiger15 (2 Apr 2021)

Is it correct to say that plants uptake CO2 only during photo period to photosynthesize sugar, but uptake nutrients at all time to grow cells by utilizing the sugar energy.  In other words, plants do not need nutrients for photosynthesis during photo period as the reaction involves only CO2 and H2O, but need other nutrients for cell growth and respiration that occur at all time


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## Beaker (21 Apr 2021)

So I changed to plantex and changed the dose to the morning when the ph is 6.5 and things have gotten worse.

4 days ago I doubled the dose and still no difference. 

I dosed some mg 1 1/2 weeks ago just to make sure it wasn't a mg deficiency and it made no difference. 

I find this really interesting, some of my algae is turning white too. My DHG is also starting to turn white and that is new. 

I dosed an ei level of dtpa iron today and I will see how that goes. 

I have been removing algae and I figured that it would go away once I get the nutrients under control.


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## Hufsa (21 Apr 2021)

Is it correct that you dont dose any general traces?
Your floaters are quite clearly suffering, and if throwing iron and mg at it doesnt help any I think it could be wise to start looking elsewhere. Many of the trace nutrients can also cause chlorosis when missing, the reason we assume iron is because iron doesnt like to stay in the water and is usually the one thats the problem. I think you should try a good trace fertilizer and see if that helps.


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## Beaker (22 Apr 2021)

I put the floaters in there just to rule out co2 when this all started. 

What trace would you recommend? I went back to plantex csm+b about 2 weeks ago.

Does plantex have an expiration date? Mine is about six years old.


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## dw1305 (22 Apr 2021)

Hi all,


Beaker said:


>


Assuming the newest leaf on the _Spirodela _is the green one? Then your plants aren't now iron deficient. They can't move the iron to the older leaves, so they will remain pale.


Beaker said:


> Does plantex have an expiration date? Mine is about six years old.


No should be fine, as long as there aren't obvious precipitates?

cheers Darrel


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## ceg4048 (22 Apr 2021)

Beaker said:


> So I changed to plantex and changed the dose to the morning when the ph is 6.5 and things have gotten worse.
> 
> 4 days ago I doubled the dose and still no difference.
> 
> ...


Hello,
         First of all there are no known algae that are affected by Iron. In your original post it seemed that you were having difficulty with the coloration of plants, hence the focus on Iron.

The photos in post 15 reveal this is a typical case of filamentous algae which has nothing to do with iron and I find it shocking that no one has pointed this out already.

Filamentous algae is caused by poor CO2, so you need to fix that first. DTPA or any other alphabet soup Iron will not fix this problem. You may want to reduce your light intensity as this is the primary cause of plants running short on CO2.


Beaker said:


> I'm confident that it is a nutrient problem and not a CO2 problem


This is exactly why hobbyists suffer CO2 faults, because they are always confident that their CO2 is good even though 95% of tank problems are actually due to poor CO2.

Cheers,


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## Hufsa (22 Apr 2021)

What about the floating plants @ceg4048 ? It seems logical to me to fix the issue thats showing up with the non CO2 limited floaters before one starts tackling any algae issues. Of course you could do both at the same time but you cant discount those white floating plants as a problem too.


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## ceg4048 (22 Apr 2021)

Hufsa said:


> What about the floating plants @ceg4048 ? It seems logical to me to fix the issue thats showing up with the non CO2 limited floaters before one starts tackling any algae issues. Of course you could do both at the same time but you cant discount those white floating plants as a problem too.



Hi Hufsa,
             Honestly I can't really see anything wrong with the floaters in post 15, but choosing between solving a trace problem, if it exists, and a CO2 problem - well, I always choose to tackle CO2. I mean, really, it there is a shortage of trace then just add more trace. That is so simple. I never worry about traces and I never have trace problems. All this hand wringing about Iron. I never even bother to worry about what chelator I'm using. Whatever I have is good enough. Seriously, I can't even remember when was the last time I had an Iron deficiency.

On the other hand, look at the devastation being caused by the algae. That'll not be easy to fix as just adding more CO2.

Cheers,


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## Beaker (25 Apr 2021)

I did a PH profile. Without CO2 my ph hovers around 7.9 and it drops to 6.5 from when the lights turn on to when the lights turn off. After I got the co2 to 6.5 the whole photo period, the HC cuba exploded and looked very healthy. That is when I started having the white plants show up. I can try to start increasing co2 but every time I do, the fish start to gasp.

I have been adding more trace and it doesn't seem to help.

I use tap water and we have a whole house salt free water softener. Could that cause the Mg to be unavailable to the plants causing the whiteness? The water softener is new within the last couple of months. I haven't been able to find much information about softeners and planted tanks.


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## dw1305 (25 Apr 2021)

Hi all,


Beaker said:


> I use tap water and we have a whole house salt free water softener. Could that cause the Mg to be unavailable to the plants causing the whiteness?


It could be, but it would depend how the water softener works.


ceg4048 said:


> I can't really see anything wrong with the floaters in post 15





Hufsa said:


> what about the floating plants @ceg4048 ? It seems logical to me to fix the issue thats showing up with the non CO2 limited floaters


The _Spirodela polyrhiza_ are definitely chlorotic, the question would be whether that paleness effects the older or the newer leaves. 

cheers Darrel


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## Beaker (26 Apr 2021)

It is the newer leaves. I see the new leaves coming in white


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## dw1305 (26 Apr 2021)

Hi all,


Beaker said:


> It is the newer leaves. I see the new leaves coming in white


That is what we need to know. It is an iron (Fe), or just possibly manganese (Mn), deficiency. They are elements that <"are immobile within the plant">, so it can't import them to new leaves, and that is where you see the chlorosis deficiency symptoms.

I don't know which iron chelators are available to you in the USA, but you would ideally want FeEDDHA or FeDTPA in harder water.   It won't be to every-ones taste, but if I was having issues I would use FeEDDHA and the <"pink tint"> method.

Plants don't need a lot of manganese, and most manganese compounds are soluble, so that is less likely as an issue.  In the UK you can buy <"Chempak Sequestered Iron"> which adds iron, manganese and magnesium (Mg) to cover all bases. My guess would be something similar will be available for you. 

cheers Darrel


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## Mr.Shenanagins (26 Apr 2021)

All forms of chelates are available here in the US. I add DTPA to my CSM+B for good measure.


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## ceg4048 (27 Apr 2021)

Beaker said:


> I did a PH profile. Without CO2 my ph hovers around 7.9 and it drops to 6.5 from when the lights turn on to when the lights turn off. After I got the co2 to 6.5 the whole photo period, the HC cuba exploded and looked very healthy. That is when I started having the white plants show up. I can try to start increasing co2 but every time I do, the fish start to gasp.
> 
> I have been adding more trace and it doesn't seem to help.
> 
> I use tap water and we have a whole house salt free water softener. Could that cause the Mg to be unavailable to the plants causing the whiteness? The water softener is new within the last couple of months. I haven't been able to find much information about softeners and planted tanks.


OK, so as always, when your CO2 profile is good but the fish suffer hypercapnia then that means your flow/distribution is in question.
This is the area you'll need to tackle. It's very likely that when you fix your flow/distribution then you'll also fix whatever nutrient problems you have.
Again, I would forget about unavailable Mg. None of those speculations are valid. I'm not familiar with your salt-free softener. The only ways I'm aware of are the resin based units that use either the Sodium Chloride or Potassium Chloride salts, or the Reverse Osmosis systems. If you use a different method then perhaps you can explain what the mechanism is.
In any case, once the water is in the tank then it's isolated and adding Fe and Mg or whatever nutrients will solve that problem.

I haven't see any photos of how you are distributing the flow or any description of your filtration/pumps. We can have a look at that and determine if some improvements can be made.

Cheers,


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## Beaker (10 Jun 2021)

I have a biomaster 250 filter with a inline atomizer. My hc cuba is growing great. It is growing super fast and looks very healthy so I really don't think I have a CO2 issue because hc cuba needs lots of co2. My rotala also stunts when the CO2 has issues but all the tops look healthy except for the color. My faster growing plants are the only ones with white leaves. The hair algae is mostly all but gone except in the hairgrass. That is also disappearing as I take it out. (the algae on the rocks is green spot algae that doesn't seem to be coming back. I just can't get to it with my brush.) The only algae I have that is growing and not going away is cladophora.

I tried EDDHA iron for 2 weeks with no effect. I thought maybe that the floaters might be hogging all the nutrients so I took them out. The plants seemed to perk up for a little bit and they look better now but they are still not looking great. 

I am finding that I will change one thing and the plants start to do better then the growth slows down after 2 weeks and the white leaves so up in force. So I feel like the thing causing the white leaves might be the limiting factor. I am also noticing that leaves are starting to get holes in them. You can see where the snails have eaten from the inside to the outside leaving an outline of the leaf.


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## Hufsa (10 Jun 2021)

You should give any changes you do, at least 4 weeks to show their effects, ideally 6 or more. 2 weeks is too short imo.


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## Beaker (30 Aug 2021)

I'm really confused. My iron deficiency is disappearing and I don't know why. 

I didn't realize that my auto doser got turned of. I don't know how long it was off but the iron deficiency got worse. Everything was showing pale new growth. 

I turned it back on and left it alone for a couple of weeks without any change to the dosing. Everything is looking much happier and is growing really well. 

The only thing that changed was I stopped changing the water once a week. I got really lazy and now I only do 25% water changes every 3 weeks or so. 

Could it be the water changes? 

I have no algae and everything looks like it is improving and is better than it has ever been. 

I don't know why less water changes would make things better. I have 300 par in places and everything I read says more water changes is normally better for highlight setups.


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## Happi (30 Aug 2021)

Beaker said:


> I have a biomaster 250 filter with a inline atomizer. My hc cuba is growing great. It is growing super fast and looks very healthy so I really don't think I have a CO2 issue because hc cuba needs lots of co2. My rotala also stunts when the CO2 has issues but all the tops look healthy except for the color. My faster growing plants are the only ones with white leaves. The hair algae is mostly all but gone except in the hairgrass. That is also disappearing as I take it out. (the algae on the rocks is green spot algae that doesn't seem to be coming back. I just can't get to it with my brush.) The only algae I have that is growing and not going away is cladophora.
> 
> I tried EDDHA iron for 2 weeks with no effect. I thought maybe that the floaters might be hogging all the nutrients so I took them out. The plants seemed to perk up for a little bit and they look better now but they are still not looking great.
> 
> ...


I would try different source of Trace and Fe if you were using CSM+B, I have gathered a data for similar situation and similar problems with the plants when using csm+b from others and my own experience. Not everyone had this issue, but those who had it, they switched the csm+b with something else, most did DIY and achieved good results. This is not the co2 related issue at all. Some nutrients does prectipate more than the others, while some are quite stable. Fe and Mn are prectipated more often than the others, people believe their plants are using it but that is not the case. DTPA Fe is quite stable even under high lights, the uv light will have more impact on the degradation compared to the other light coming from your fixture. Iron is also used by algae and it also depends on how well the algae can use it. I use to run 0.1 ppm Fe weekly with 6 39watts bulbs, see my profile picture, here's another  picture:


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## Zeus. (31 Aug 2021)

Beaker said:


> I didn't realize that my auto doser got turned of. I don't know how long it was off but the iron deficiency got worse. Everything was showing pale new growth.


Which makes sense as tank wasn't getting Fe - as well as other nutrients.


Beaker said:


> I turned it back on and left it alone for a couple of weeks without any change to the dosing. Everything is looking much happier and is growing really well.


So everything got better - so it was the lack of ferts



Beaker said:


> The only thing that changed was I stopped changing the water once a week. I got really lazy and now I only do 25% water changes every 3 weeks or so.
> 
> Could it be the water changes?



No, it was coincidence that you didn't do the WCs, I would keep up with the WCs preferably every week, as not doing them is like a time bomb.

If plants looking better so no need for a different Fe chelate IMO either


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## dw1305 (31 Aug 2021)

Hi all,


Beaker said:


> I didn't realize that my auto doser got turned of. I don't know how long it was off but the iron deficiency got worse. Everything was showing pale new growth.
> 
> I turned it back on and left it alone for a couple of weeks without any change to the dosing. Everything is looking much happier and is growing really well.


Same as @Zeus., my guess is that the autodoser was off for long enough for iron deficiencies to appear.

Because iron isn't mobile within the plant it takes a while for deficiency to show, and then another <"lag period until the plants improve">, once plant available iron (Fe++(+)) ions have been restored.

I've now adopted a <"hybrid Duckweed Index"> approach. This is because once the Amazon Frogbit (_Limnobium laevigatum_) shows <"iron deficiency symptoms"> it takes a while for new non-deficient leaves to grow again. I need green leaves for the <"visual aspect of the "Duckweed Index" to work">.

Have a look at <"Frogbit taken a turn"> for a complete cycle from deficient to healthy again.  Also apologies to @jameson_uk, as I keep referring to his posts. I'm sure he won't mind me saying that he is <"red-green colour blind">, which makes assessing levels of greenness a lot trickier for him, but has provided us with some lovely threads for iron deficiency problems.

cheers Darrel


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