# Microworm cultures



## Ajm200 (27 Mar 2022)

I’m thinking of starting a microworm culture for my Pygmy corys and ember tetras but as my husband struggles with the smell of repashy, green and the infusoria culture I started recently I need to find the least smelly option.

They really aren’t great at eating anything.  They take some micro food intended for fry but ignore pretty much everything else.  Here’s a shot of the live foods in one corner of that tank having a little dance off as they have nothing to fear from the fish and are breeding fast enough that can I harvest them for the other tank.

I’m hoping that smaller microworms and newly hatched  baby brine shrimp get them hunting and feeding

Any advice please


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## kammaroon (27 Mar 2022)

I have a tank with pygmy corys, clown killifish and neocaridina shrimp. I feed the tank mostly flakes, pellets and granules, occasionally micro worms and baby brine shrimp. I see the corys snuffling around but I don't see them go for the food specifically. I've had them for almost two years now, so they must be eating something.

I culture Walter worms with mashed potatoes and keep them below the tank in the lounge. They don't smell at all.


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## Wookii (27 Mar 2022)

I keep Grindal worms in damp coconut coir, fed on cat biscuits, it always amazes me that after almost 18 months it has no odour what so ever.

I have micro worms too - they do smell, but only when you take the lid off - but they are tiny, and not much good for anything but fry and the very tiniest of fish.

I have to say I’m amazed your Embers aren’t chowing down on those worms in your tank though! Maybe catch some and chop them smaller, and feed them with food you know your fish eat, and they may start seeing the worms as food.


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## Hanuman (28 Mar 2022)

I have cultured micro worms. It's a pain because you need a source of sugar (bread for example) and yeast. It can get messy and smelly. Plus they are extremely small.
So I switched to grindal worms. The best. The don't require as much attention as other worms and are much easier to take care of. I give them fish/frog food. I used to culture them in coconut coir but then switched to Scotch Bright green pads as I was getting annoyed by the coir. It also made things cleaner. I have a small pice of plastic on the pads and simply pick them up and dip them in the tank for feeding. Done. No coir dust or anything. I do change water every week though. But that's a 5 minute process.


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## Conort2 (28 Mar 2022)

I culture grindal worms too, they have no smell and are extremely easy to culture. I keep them on coco coir and feed them cat biscuits. Give them the odd spray with water and that’s about it. 

Cheers


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## dw1305 (28 Mar 2022)

Hi all,


Ajm200 said:


> I’m thinking of starting a microworm culture for my Pygmy corys and ember tetras


I use <"rolled oats"> and the containers you <"get hummus etc in">. I've had the same culture (continually re-cultured) since 2008.

cheers Darrel


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## Parablennius (28 Mar 2022)

Hi, could anyone point me in the direction of a starter culture, please? TIA


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## Conort2 (28 Mar 2022)

Parablennius said:


> Hi, could anyone point me in the direction of a starter culture, please? TIA


I just got mine from eBay, quite a few starter cultures available on there.


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## Wookii (28 Mar 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I use <"rolled oats"> and the containers you <"get hummus etc in">. I've had the same culture (continually re-cultured) since 2008.
> 
> cheers Darrel



 That's a serious commitment Darrel! How long do you keep them before restarting the culture?

I've been using oats too. I've been doing mine every two weeks so far, with a thin layer of fresh dry oats added at the end of the first week to extend its life. I couldn't see me being able to carry on with that for another 13 years as its a bit labour intensive - is there a way to extend the time between restarting the cultures?



Parablennius said:


> Hi, could anyone point me in the direction of a starter culture, please? TIA



I got mine from Amazon - hard to complain at £3.50 delivered:

Amazon product


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## dw1305 (28 Mar 2022)

Hi all, 


Wookii said:


> How long do you keep them before restarting the culture?


I usually wait until they start smelling lightly alcoholic by then the the pot is usually ~1/3 full of oats. I don't keep a record, but I'll guess it is probably about 6 weeks from start to finish.

cheers Darrel


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## Ajm200 (29 Mar 2022)

Thanks for all the advice.  I ordered some Walter worms for now.  I did find a reasonably priced listing for grindal worms but they sold out so I’ll see how the first lot work out and order some others later.

Going to give vinegar eels a go too storing the bottles in the garage.  Might be interesting as apples make me itch and wheeze but as if I wash my hands well it should work out ok.

Off to buy wine, crisps and hummus tomorrow as I need the containers.  At least that’s my excuse when hubby asks 😂


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## ScareCrow (29 Mar 2022)

@Ajm200 I can't comment on repashy as I've only used their gecko products, which smell really nice. Infusoria cultures often smell really bad though.

What are those worms you're feeding / inadvertently culturing?

Personally I'd not bother with vinegar eels, especially if you have that much of a reaction to apples. From the limited info I've been able to find, they don't have much nutritional value. I think that they'll also be too small for your tetras or pygmy corydoras to bother with.
As others have said grindals are a good culture to have. Very little to no smell and take very little work to maintain.
Brine shrimp are taken by just about all fish and for the first 8 hours of their life, they have high nutritional value. You can get small numbers to hatch just by adding eggs to salt water but to get the best results they need to either be tumbled using an air pump or you can decapsulate or buy decapsulated cysts.
If you buy decapsulated cysts check whether they can be hatched. The listing should say. I'm currently trying the non-hatching variety and I'm not particularly impressed.


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## Ajm200 (29 Mar 2022)

ScareCrow said:


> can't comment on repashy as I've only used their gecko products, which smell really nice.



The fish foods I have contain a lot of algae and pong.  My beagles come running from everywhere to investigate

What are those worms you're feeding / inadvertently culturing?

Tubifex.  Added a tiny pinch to see if the fish would take them.  Thought a few survivors might turn the sand over and the fish would pick them off but they are thriving


ScareCrow said:


> Personally I'd not bother with vinegar eels, especially if you have that much of a reaction to apples. From the limited info I've been able to find, they don't have much nutritional value. I think that they'll also be too small for your tetras or pygmy corydoras to bother with



Thanks.  I was trying to find nutritional info but failed.


ScareCrow said:


> As others have said grindals are a good culture to have. Very little to no smell and take very little work to maintain.



Not found grindals under £15 for a few ounces yet.  Missed out in the sensibly priced ones. Have walter worms coming in the post.  


ScareCrow said:


> Brine shrimp are taken by just about all fish and for the first 8 hours of their life


 I have setup  a Hobby hatchery last night.  Video reviews are good and the setup allows multiple easy harvests per day.  No pump needed.  Small amounts will be perfect

Daphnia in that tank and on the window sill too. If it all works I’ll have a good selection and at least the bigger tetras  will appreciate them


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## Aqua360 (30 Mar 2022)

Microworms are great, but they do smell. This thread has inspired me to try a grindal worm culture!


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## MirandaB (30 Mar 2022)

Am I weird in that I actually quite like the smell of a ripe microworm culture?


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## Wookii (30 Mar 2022)

MirandaB said:


> Am I weird in that I actually quite like the smell of a ripe microworm culture?



Yes! 😂


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## sparkyweasel (30 Mar 2022)

MirandaB said:


> Am I weird in that I actually quite like the smell of a ripe microworm culture?


If you are, I am too.  Which is quite possible. 
I think they small nice for a few weeks, then start to smell bad and it's time to bin it.


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## Aqua360 (30 Mar 2022)

MirandaB said:


> Am I weird in that I actually quite like the smell of a ripe microworm culture?



There's definitely an element to fishkeeping that normalises stuff like this over time lol, normal fish flake food for example I don't even smell anymore, but to anyone else it stinks!


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## ScareCrow (31 Mar 2022)

MirandaB said:


> Am I weird in that I actually quite like the smell of a ripe microworm culture?





sparkyweasel said:


> If you are, I am too.  Which is quite possible.
> I think they small nice for a few weeks, then start to smell bad and it's time to bin it.


I didn't want to be the first one to admit it but like sparkyweasel. I like it for the first few weeks. It reminds me of yeasty smell you get when brewing beer or making bread.


Aqua360 said:


> There's definitely an element to fishkeeping that normalises stuff like this over time lol, normal fish flake food for example I don't even smell anymore, but to anyone else it stinks!


The smell of certain fish foods remind of feeding fish as a child.


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## Wookii (31 Mar 2022)

I feel like we’ve gradually uncovered a secret worm sniffing society, hidden from view like the Illuminati of the fish keeping world. 

For me the most fun part of the micro worms is wafting the container under the kids noses whilst feeding the fry at breakfast time, and watching their faces as they recoil in terror! 😆👹


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## Hufsa (31 Mar 2022)

ScareCrow said:


> The smell of certain fish foods remind of feeding fish as a child.


I dont have any experience with worm cultures but can confirm sniffing a bit of regular fish food reminds me of childhood 😊


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## greenbliss (31 Mar 2022)

Sorry if this is slightly off topic, but I saw grindal worms being discussed so wanted to ask a question...

I remember reading a thread on the Parosphromenus project where it was said that feeding cat/dog food to your grindal worms isn't very good for your fish, simply because fat from warm blooded animals isn't able to be utilised easily by the fish? Anyone got any input on this?


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## Wookii (31 Mar 2022)

greenbliss said:


> Sorry if this is slightly off topic, but I saw grindal worms being discussed so wanted to ask a question...
> 
> I remember reading a thread on the Parosphromenus project where it was said that feeding cat/dog food to your grindal worms isn't very good for your fish, simply because fat from warm blooded animals isn't able to be utilised easily by the fish? Anyone got any input on this?



Well I get the fish version of the cat food I buy, though that may not mean it doesn’t contain mammal based fats too. Most of the cat biscuit contents will be processed by the Grindal worms into their own body tissues anyway I would have thought, with only a small amount still left in their gut.

If the gut contents are a concern you can grow the worms on the cat biscuits, and then use fish food for the feeding prior to farming them off.


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## greenbliss (31 Mar 2022)

Wookii said:


> Well I get the fish version of the cat food I buy, though that may not mean it doesn’t contain mammal based fats too. Most of the cat biscuit contents will be processed by the Grindal worms into their own body tissues anyway I would have thought, with only a small amount still left in their gut.
> 
> If the gut contents are a concern you can grow the worms on the cat biscuits, and then use fish food for the feeding prior to farming them off.


Fair enough. I guess maybe it's not as big of a concern as I initially thought.


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## tigertim (1 Apr 2022)

greenbliss said:


> Sorry if this is slightly off topic, but I saw grindal worms being discussed so wanted to ask a question...
> 
> I remember reading a thread on the Parosphromenus project where it was said that feeding cat/dog food to your grindal worms isn't very good for your fish, simply because fat from warm blooded animals isn't able to be utilised easily by the fish? Anyone got any input on this?


Like others i use oats but sprinkled with a bit of milk for both my grindal and whiteworm cultures i feed my licorice gouramis on.


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## brhau (2 May 2022)

I started my grindal worm culture with cat food, but found that it would start to smell of sulfur very quickly. I use scrubber pads as the substrate, and I had to replace the water and clean the pads every couple days. I’ve since switched to baby cereal (enriched rice cereal) and I mix it with some spirulina flake to gutload before feeding. The culture stays a lot cleaner that way.


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## Wookii (2 May 2022)

brhau said:


> I started my grindal worm culture with cat food, but found that it would start to smell of sulfur very quickly. I use scrubber pads as the substrate, and I had to replace the water and clean the pads every couple days. I’ve since switched to baby cereal (enriched rice cereal) and I mix it with some spirulina flake to gutload before feeding. The culture stays a lot cleaner that way.



You should try damp coconut coir - the stuff that comes in a dry block for planting house plants etc in - my Grindal worm culture has no smell what so ever, even after over 18 months in the same substrate and feeding 4-6 cat biscuits twice a week. Other than the feeding it’s literally maintenance free.


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## Simon Cole (2 May 2022)

By my definition, a “microworm” is a common name for a nematode found in the _Panagrellus_ genus, whereas a "white worm" is generally considered as an annelid specific to the genus _Enchytraeus _that also includes a species known as the _"_Grindal worm" _Enchytraeus buchholzi_.



greenbliss said:


> ...it was said that feeding cat/dog food to your grindal worms isn't very good for your fish, simply because fat from warm blooded animals isn't able to be utilised easily by the fish? Anyone got any input on this?


I do find that some dry cat foods can cause cultures to slow down, possibly due to the residual presence of ivermectin in animal-derived products or salts. I do like to feed them veterinary-grade dry cat foods due to the high mineral and vitamin content when I am recovering sick fish. You make a very good point because we know that humans have the same problem, notably with pig-derived food, and humans are arguably evolved better to consume certain animals over others. I am quite laid-back about this and will allow some of the gunk from the cat food to be included with the Grindal worms when I scrape them off the culture and feed them to my fish using a small spatula (not best practice).  I'm more cautious when feeding anything derived from salmonids (especially what NOAA define as "fish processing waste") or other poorly-regulated fishmeal because there is little guarantee that dead diseased fish called "morts" do not make their way into processed fish food, potentially causing disease incidence in aquarium fish (e.g. _aeromonas_). On a side note, the proportion of plastics allowed by the Food Standards Agency in animal feed produced in the UK is 0.15% by weight and I suspect that has the potential for leading to cancer in a lot of cats, but I could be wrong. A lot of native Enchytraeids are found in seaweed and NOAA indicate that this type of feed has significant growth potential and benefits for fish. I guess if I wanted a superfood performance diet for both my fish and cultures then this is where I would look, not-least because it is free, nutritious, and highly sustainable. For most non-Grindal white worms I stick with whole-grain seeded bread, oats, yoghurt and a sprinkle of yeast and a compost medium; for Grindal worms I'm still using coir like @Wookii does. I would add that one of the best way to feed Grindal worms to fish is to use a slice of red or yellow pepper, and when they crawl on, dunk it in your tank. You can freeze slices of the pepper too.

Side note:  If anybody is interested in collecting native white worms and other Oligochaetes from north Wales marine littoral habitats when they are up on holiday next, feel free to drop me a line. Some of the specimens I've seen in the past grow quite large and would be interesting to culture.


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## brhau (6 Oct 2022)

Wookii said:


> You should try damp coconut coir - the stuff that comes in a dry block for planting house plants etc in - my Grindal worm culture has no smell what so ever, even after over 18 months in the same substrate and feeding 4-6 cat biscuits twice a week. Other than the feeding it’s literally maintenance free.


I tried this, as I was interested in having a slower-growing culture than scouring pads. I just cannot keep the sciarid flies out. I microwave the coir/soil and have my container sitting on diatomaceous earth. They must be coming in with the food.

-Ben


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## Wookii (6 Oct 2022)

brhau said:


> I tried this, as I was interested in having a slower-growing culture than scouring pads. I just cannot keep the sciarid flies out. I microwave the coir/soil and have my container sitting on diatomaceous earth. They must be coming in with the food.
> 
> -Ben



Do you have filter floss in any air holes? What are you feeding them? Post a pic if you have one.


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## brhau (6 Oct 2022)

Yes, I had a screwtop plastic container with three holes drilled in the top and filter floss covering the holes. Threw it out because I didn't want to deal with the flies. 

Food: I tried enriched rice cereal first, since I knew the container was unlikely to be contaminated. But at that time, they were in too large a container. I used a small piece of cat kibble to transfer them to the smaller container described above, and fed cat food for a couple weeks until it became completely infested. As I got more flies, the worms stopped growing quickly as well.


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## Wookii (7 Oct 2022)

brhau said:


> Yes, I had a screwtop plastic container with three holes drilled in the top and filter floss covering the holes. Threw it out because I didn't want to deal with the flies.
> 
> Food: I tried enriched rice cereal first, since I knew the container was unlikely to be contaminated. But at that time, they were in too large a container. I used a small piece of cat kibble to transfer them to the smaller container described above, and fed cat food for a couple weeks until it became completely infested. As I got more flies, the worms stopped growing quickly as well.



I have to be honest, I'm not sure what to suggest. I've been running my two culture tubs now for two and half years on the exact same coconut coir, and feeding around 4-6 cat biscuits (which are kept in a sealed tub) every 4-5 days. I've never had any flies in the culture to date, and I can ramp worm production up or down depending on how much I feed.

These are my tubs (an old picture - they've got a bit more grime an algae on the inside nowadays). I pull the floss physically through the holes, so nothing can get in or out other than air:


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## dw1305 (7 Oct 2022)

Hi all,


Wookii said:


> I've been running my two culture tubs now for two and half years on the exact same coconut coir, and feeding around 4-6 cat biscuits (which are kept in a sealed tub) every 4-5 days.


I'm going to have another go at this, using your technique. The moler clay cultures always have <"Drain Flies (Owl Midges)"> and the compost ones both <"Cereal mites"> and <"Sciarid flies">, and occasionally House Mites as well.

cheers Darrel


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## brhau (7 Oct 2022)

Wookii said:


> I have to be honest, I'm not sure what to suggest. I've been running my two culture tubs now for two and half years on the exact same coconut coir, and feeding around 4-6 cat biscuits (which are kept in a sealed tub) every 4-5 days. I've never had any flies in the culture to date, and I can ramp worm production up or down depending on how much I feed.


I think it really is a matter of ensuring there are no entry points for external larvae. The only two things I haven't controlled for are: (1) the grindal worm starter culture itself and (2) the cat food. I've maintained a fast-growing culture on scouring pads without parasites. The nice thing about that setup is that you can completely immerse the culture to separate mites, if they appear. The downside is that I can't leave them for a week without the culture crashing.


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