# Milwaukee ph probe



## McCarthy (8 Apr 2017)

I'm going to regulate CO2 through a Milwaukee ph controller, but don't want the probe in my tank. What would be my best option to integrate the probe somewhere in the cabinet? Does anybody know of an adapter? Or should I go ahead and build a sump?


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## EdwinK (8 Apr 2017)

Maintenance vise sump is a great idea and also a good place for a probe.

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## zozo (8 Apr 2017)

I did it with a 1/2" threaded T and a swivel like this in the filter outlet tube.. 




Look for a UK supplier of the  HUMMEL HSK-K-EX SWIVEL ZT NPT 1/2" /6-12MM-IP68
It contains a 12 mm rubber seal and the probe is 12 mm, turn the nut hand tight and it wont leak.. This is an old pic later i installed a union coupling.
Between valve and T. With this coupling it is way easy to take the probe out with T and all, clean it and reinstall it, that way it's also easy to peek into the hole to see if the probe is deep enough in and if it's turned in the correct position. The probe end has 4 slids, obviously the opening should be in line with the flow direction.


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## McCarthy (8 Apr 2017)

zozo said:


> I did it with a 1/2" threaded T and a swivel like this in the filter outlet tube..
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Now that's what I'm talking about. Thank you. I owe you beer! But you have to come to Florida.  Talking about that, I found a US retailer but the model name has an "active" attached to it:

https://www.sealconusa.com/products...ings/nylon/bxa-elong/metric-elong/cd20da-bxa/

Is this going to work?


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## zozo (8 Apr 2017)

I have no idea what the active stands for.. You should have one rated IP68 which is 100% waterproof.. These are mainly used for cable entry into watertanks etc.

Mine doesn't have an O-ring, but a 12mm rubber sleeve (The middle in the pic) and those teeth around it (left)... The sleeve fits snugly and tight over the probe and it slides all the way into the swivel, just one turn of the nut and it is water tight with the pumps pressure. Absolutely no force needed.




If an o-ring will work, dunno i guess so.. But i think it might need to be fastened a bit more tight and the probe is just thin plastic.. Don't crack it..

btw fyi if you ever need a new probe.. See this
http://www.banggood.com/PH-Electrod...trol-Meter-Sensor-p-912723.html?rmmds=myorder
Using them already for 2 years without any issues on the Milwaukee from above pic.. Seeing the price, even if the had issues after a year it's still a lauch to replace them once a year if needed.. But they work perfectly and come with a refill.


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## McCarthy (14 Apr 2017)

zozo said:


> I have no idea what the active stands for.. You should have one rated IP68 which is 100% waterproof.. These are mainly used for cable entry into watertanks etc.
> 
> Mine doesn't have an O-ring, but a 12mm rubber sleeve (The middle in the pic) and those teeth around it (left)... The sleeve fits snugly and tight over the probe and it slides all the way into the swivel, just one turn of the nut and it is water tight with the pumps pressure. Absolutely no force needed.
> View attachment 104738
> ...




The parts are finally on the way. Was quiet a hassle because they first didn't want to deal with a consumer, bouncing me to a sales rep who wanted to make sure that I'll be buying more in future. Anyway, I'll now get a couple free of charge as samples. Go figure.

Thank you again for the photos and suggestions. Very much appreciated.


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## zozo (14 Apr 2017)

Mine was also very hard to come by, regular hardware stores indeed do not have this is stock, to little demand.. I also was kinda lukey with phoning around to find a wholesale Hummel dealer, who after some moaning and groaning was willing to pinch an eye and sell me only 2 of these couplings.


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## McCarthy (15 Apr 2017)

zozo said:


> Mine was also very hard to come by, regular hardware stores indeed do not have this is stock, to little demand.. I also was kinda lukey with phoning around to find a wholesale Hummel dealer, who after some moaning and groaning was willing to pinch an eye and sell me only 2 of these couplings.




What would be good locations for valves in my setup and am I missing something? The filter is a Eheim with build in valve and it lets me electronically adjust the pump speed.

Also, the piping will be 1/2" in the cabinet but I'd like to use 13mm glassware. Do you think I'll have issues reducing the diameter of the hoses going up and down the tank? Tank is 90 x 30 x 30.


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## zozo (15 Apr 2017)

Í guess as long as it is in the filters outlet tube, in front of the diffuser/reactor the measurment is most accurate. because all co2 comming from the filter id fully dissolved in the water. But i think this is peanuts, it circulates in such a rate you wont measure much difference where ever you put it.. As long as you do not bubble on top of it.. But what is not dissolved obviously wont be measured.

One thing more important, i do not know if this has improved on the newer types of Milwaukee's, but the SMS122 as i'm using is very sensitive to electrical interference like stray voltage and especialy, the pumps magnetic field. Reports of this are to find all over the net, the buzzing relai..If that is the case you could see a the pH value on the meter constantly fluctuate with 0.1 or 0.2 units. The set threshold probably is factory set at 0.1, so if there is interference and reaches the desired set value, the relai will rapidly click, switching on and off, or even start to buzz like mad i duet with the solenoid. Caused by the fluctuation..

If you experience this than remove the probe as far away from the source causing it.

In my case i'd put it behind the heater in front of the reactor as far away from the pump.  Also outside the cabinet, because there is to much elecytronics in the cabinet which could cause interference. Just to be sure it doesn't occure.. Mind if it does and you're not at home, it'll buzz for hours to come and might burn or wear out and trash the relai or solenoid..


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## Zeus. (15 Apr 2017)

Looks just like the glands i used for the cables in my plastic enclosure for my PLC. Got mine from RS components

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## Julian (15 Apr 2017)

Just to throw in another perspective. 

I've used 3 different pH controllers over the years, if I think about all the money I've spent on them and extra probes etc it's probably close to £1000. I have stopped using them because I've come to the conclusion that they offer very little benefit other than acting as a safety measure so your pH doesn't drop too low and you gas your fish. 

In my opinion, CO2 really isn't the fine art that it's made out to be. Lighting and flow are fare more important. Not enough light, your plants won't even use the CO2. Not enough flow, and they won't get to use it either. Plants will do fine even without the '1 point pH drop' an hour before lights on, so expensive equipment such as pH controllers are very unnecessary. 

Yes, you need to get your CO2 right initially, and this is where the controller is most useful. But once CO2 levels are set, you have to pay it very little attention. A £5 pH probe off ebay will do exactly the same job and isn't really required.

Ultimately, you need as much CO2 in your tank before it makes the inhabitants uncomfortable, so your fish will be the best indicators of how much CO2 you need (along with a drop checker of course).

My point is you can achieve exactly the same results without over complicating things, and I think that you, like me, will come to this conclusion eventually.

I know what it's like when you get an idea in your head, you don't care how much it costs or how complicated it is, as long as it achieves the objective. But often the realisation kicks in later on that actually this may not have been the best course of action and you could have saved yourself a lot of hassle/time/money if you'd kept things simple.

Good luck to you though whatever you decide to do.


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## zozo (15 Apr 2017)

Julian said:


> Just to throw in another perspective.
> 
> I've used 3 different pH controllers over the years, if I think about all the money I've spent on them and extra probes etc it's probably close to £1000. I have stopped using them because I've come to the conclusion that they offer very little benefit other than acting as a safety measure so your pH doesn't drop too low and you gas your fish.
> 
> ...



Partialy i agree with this, if you have to pay + $ 150,- for a Ph controler and want to replace the original probe each year which is half the price of the complete unit. 

I was rather very lucky and bought a controller for € 15 at a garage sale, without probe and power supply.. Bought a $ 7 china probe and still had a dc 12 V powersupply.. So i was ready to roll for € 25,-.. And absolutely nothing to complain about in the 2 years i'm using it now.. I calibrate it regularly and the china probe still works like a charm all the time, never replaced it. So the adviced replacement once a year is a precaution (marketing/warenty/legal rights) measure and not an obligation.

Now i only drop 0.5 unit and are well far away from the danger zone for the live stock.. As an extra safety measure i firstly set the regulator with the help of a drop checker, so if the controller ever fails to stop the co2 i'm still ok than it will just go on during the night and not nuke the fish.

Controller pros:
It will elliminate fluctuating bubble rate. The co2 administering is rock solid. Even without a dual stage regulator.
It will prevent a tank dump, without controller you would need a dual stage regulator. And red reports of them failing as well, fyi here on UKAPS not so long ago. And he nuked all his fish..

Controller cons:
In my case actualy non.. I love it. But honnestly wouldn't have bought it for the new price.  But then again, Co2 is with a jest, seriously playing with fire.. Many people nuked their fish to the afterlife. I have no experience with this, since i started with a controller. And after 2 years of using a controller i'm confident it'll never happen.. But if it would ever have happend to me or came close to it without having the controller. Then i probably would have tossed the whole co2 concept anway. It's not worth the risk.. The beauty of my plants does not go above the health of my fish.

So you should at least invest in a dual stage regulator if you are not willing to invest in a ph controller. Where and if money is safed here remains the question. Because you can have a pretty safe system with a controller and a rather cheap regulator..

It's all about preferences and what you find most important in life.. I guess. Just remind, who burns his buttocks has to sit on blisters..


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## Zeus. (15 Apr 2017)

Have to agree 100% no need for a pH controller, but i have to admit i have found having one and being new to the hobby has made controlling the CO2 very easy and know i have my PLC setup makes it so easy as to how long it takes to reach the working CO2 concentration. I do intend to take it off in time. Think my son will use it too for a short while.

As to the cost of the replacement probe the one i got from CO2 art is about £20, so not too bad

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## Delapool (15 Apr 2017)

I found getting close to the CO2 limit that certain fish went off their food while others were fine. Lifted the ph low setting and all back to good. 


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## Zeus. (16 Apr 2017)

Think i got the price wrong about the replacement probe. None in stock at CO2 art atm to check but sent them an e-mail

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## zozo (16 Apr 2017)

My first mistake with co2 was, not realizing how much it is actualy replacing the oxygen.. For the fish you could compair it to us with going high up a mountain.

Anyway i noticed, because 1 lfs is 1 km from my house, so they have the excact same water supplier, so regarding water parameters the do not realy need to addapt, if i come home they can go straight into the tank. I didn't realize the importancy of the need to slowly addapt them to co2 and at that time i was still doing the 1pH unit drop and even if plants are bublling like mad the oxygen is not dissolved in the water and is very low in concentration. 

I did put in a school of black tetras and all of them went floating up side down breathing very heavily while all other fish seem to be fine. I had to do a immediate 60% water change to revive them.

That was a very scary experience and realized it is depriving te fish severely from oxygene even if they addapt to it and do not show it in their behaivor.


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## Zeus. (16 Apr 2017)

I thought/read that [O2] and [CO2] in water was independent of each other!

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## Zeus. (16 Apr 2017)

It's the bloods [CO2] that drives the breathing rate in humans so i assume it's the same in our less evolved ansestors (fish)

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## zozo (16 Apr 2017)

What it precisely is and how it works i do not know, i just can assume correctly they where sufocating within a minute. All floating upside down flapping their gills like mad and a few even went unconscious and looked like not breathing at all anymore. Fortunately the water change revived them all and all are still living today.  It scared the hell out of me. If there was a world record speed water change, i would have won.


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## Zeus. (16 Apr 2017)

If I remember my physiology correct (been some time) the main drive for breathing is high [CO2] in the blood, monitored by the respiratory Center in the hypothalamus, low [O2] does drive respiration to a lesser extent. Reason is high [CO2] in blood leads to low pH of blood which is toxic to the organism hence it having a more important influence on respiration.

The astronauts in the Appolo 13 had the same issue after an incident, plenty of O2 but increasing [CO2] in their vessel. It was touch and go for them. They managed to do a makeshift CO2 Strubber and made it back to earth. So close to moon yet never touched it !


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## McCarthy (17 Apr 2017)

zozo said:


> Í guess as long as it is in the filters outlet tube, in front of the diffuser/reactor the measurment is most accurate. because all co2 comming from the filter id fully dissolved in the water. But i think this is peanuts, it circulates in such a rate you wont measure much difference where ever you put it.. As long as you do not bubble on top of it.. But what is not dissolved obviously wont be measured.
> 
> One thing more important, i do not know if this has improved on the newer types of Milwaukee's, but the SMS122 as i'm using is very sensitive to electrical interference like stray voltage and especialy, the pumps magnetic field. Reports of this are to find all over the net, the buzzing relai..If that is the case you could see a the pH value on the meter constantly fluctuate with 0.1 or 0.2 units. The set threshold probably is factory set at 0.1, so if there is interference and reaches the desired set value, the relai will rapidly click, switching on and off, or even start to buzz like mad i duet with the solenoid. Caused by the fluctuation..
> 
> ...




Thank you for the hint. Very helpful for me when planning the layout inside the cabinet.


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## McCarthy (17 Apr 2017)

Julian said:


> Just to throw in another perspective.
> 
> I've used 3 different pH controllers over the years, if I think about all the money I've spent on them and extra probes etc it's probably close to £1000. I have stopped using them because I've come to the conclusion that they offer very little benefit other than acting as a safety measure so your pH doesn't drop too low and you gas your fish.
> 
> ...




I already bought everything, so I'll make my own experiences, which is half of the fun, and report back. I'll be gone twice a year for a week and needs this to be running automatically somehow. The PH probe and controller should at least be good as a cut off if things go down.


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## McCarthy (17 Apr 2017)

PS: I started my first journal, just in case you guys want to follow me around. 

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/cliff-plateau.49531/


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