# Newbie with Low light + C02 supplemented tank



## faizal (7 Mar 2011)

:text-imnewhere: Hi everybody. I am relatively new to planted tanks. And this is going to be my first planted tank. I was wondering if I have all this thought out in the right direction. I would truly appreciate if anybody could be kind enough to nudge me in the right direction please. 

My tank: Its a bow front . 14 inches (height) ; 23.5 inches (length); 12 inches (depth) . About 16.8 US Gallons

Filter : Cannister filter with 450L/ hr rating (China made). That's about 119 Gallons per hour. The filter outflow is placed on the left side of the front aquarium glass.

Lights: 2 units of T5 measuring 8 watts each placed 4 feet above the water surface. 

Substrate: 60% Seachem Flourite sand mixed with 40% inert 2-3mm sized inert sand type of gravel

Hardscape: Using Rocks

Plants: Background- Hygrophila difformis, Pogestemon erectus,Vallisneria natans.
           Mid ground- Ludwigia glandulosa, Hygrophila polysperma var
           Foreground- HCs, Pogostemon helferi, Staurogyne repens, some anubias nana petite under cover of the taller    midground plants.

Ferts: Tom's EI method for a high light tank with 70% water change every weekend

For circulation: I have added an Eheim powerhead at the right rear corner of my tank so that there would be some circulation along the rear wall of the aquarium.
I will be using pressurized co2 and method of co2 injection would be via a ceramic diffuser placed at the opposite end of my filter outflow as described by Ed Seeley in the UKaps article (Setting up a higher tech planted tank).

Drop checker (JBL) with my 4dKH reference solution ready. 

Photoperiod: 6 hours .I am taking the advice as written in one of the ukaps articles & planning on starting the co2 injection 2 hours before the lights on period so that I would have a reasonably good co2 concentration in the water by the time the lights come on. 

My worries are 
1. Room ambient temperature is around 32-33'C ( That's right!!!  ) I live in Malaysia, South East Asia & at the moment cannot afford a chiller.

2. At night, when I use the air conditioning (usually between 8:30pm till 7 am) the temperature goes down to about 27'C in the tank. That's a daily temp variation of 5-6'C !!!!   


I plan to run the 2 aquarium fans in the morning with hopes of bringing down the room temp to about 30'C,...then pray that the further 3'C drop at night will not affect my plants or future fishes. High hopes?? I don't know,pls advise

Also planning to keep the photoperiod between 8pm to 2 am in the morning ,....this again with hopes that by doing this my CO2 will remain in the tank's water for longer periods of time when the temp is cooler at night.

I also plan on running an airstone 24hrs a day / 7 days a week to keep the O2 levels up and happy.

Will all this work?  

I am getting my plants tomorrow. Tonight I will be setting up the co2 system.

Please help.

Thank you.


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## George Farmer (8 Mar 2011)

Hi and welcome to UKAPS! 

Your set-up sounds ok.  

My main concern is your lighting.  2 x 8w T5 placed 120cm (4 feet) above the tank is not going to give you much light at all.  Light drops off considerably the more distance that is placed between it and the water, and 120cm is a large distance indeed.  

Can you fix the lighting directly above the water?  Even then 2 x 8w is barely enough light for that size tank and the plants you have chosen.  2 x 18w T8 would be fine, as another example.

The temperature may become an issue.  Have you considered using cooling fans?

Using an airstone will drive off CO2, so you’ll need more CO2 to compensate.


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## faizal (8 Mar 2011)

Thank you George for such a warm welcome & speedy guidance!!! 

I am so sorry!!! I had typed it wrongly. My lights are a pair of T5s, 8 watts each raised 4 INCHES  above the surface of the water.

Instead of the T8s,...what total wattage would you advise for my tank using T5 LIGHTS please? They(the lights) come with a stand that I can attach over the opposing side aquarium glasses. They are standardly raised 4 inches above the water column surface.

Yes,...I am planning to use a pair of cooling fans over the set up. Despite this, I am expecting a temperature fluctuation of 3'C at night as I will be switching on the air conditioning during bedtime (the tank is in my bedroom!).


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## George Farmer (8 Mar 2011)

2 x 24w T5 would be perfect if you have good CO2, nutrients and circulation.


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## faizal (9 Mar 2011)

Wow!!!    That IS a lot of light!!! My goal was actually more of a slow growth rate tank using less lights but with co2 supplementation. 2 T5s of 24 watts each puts me at about 2.85 WPG . But then again, these days we go by PAR readings right? I was looking at something like 30-40 mmol/m2/sec at substrate level , good co2 ,EI for dosing. 

I can't even afford a chiller right now,...let alone a PAR meter but do you think it might be possible for me to lower the lights a little bit more please   

What would you recommend for a more slower growth rate? This is my first planted tank & i want to learn to use co2 but with slower growth rates. I am not that experienced at all. I have just been reading a lot on barrreport & ukaps.   So please correct me if I am wrong but my tank's temperature is already high( meaning higher metabolic rates,...that means the margin of error would be unforgiving as it is,....wouldn't higher light worsen that situation?) 

Sorry George,...I don't mean to sound too intelligent (which I am definetely not!!). I just want a tank with a more forgiving growth rate to facilitate my learning experience.

Your suggestions mean a lot to me.

THANK YOU AGAIN FOR HELPING ME

Faizal


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## foxfish (9 Mar 2011)

Generally speaking - for folk who want to get strong, healthy growth by using C02 & EI, the recommended formula is 2 x T5s the length of the tank (for tanks down to 55cm deep).
The whole idea of injecting C02 is to get better & faster growth than you would get by not injecting C02! 
Perhaps you don't need the gas in your case? 
Maybe you should look at using locally found plants that can coupe with the temperatures & try a low tech approach?


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## faizal (9 Mar 2011)

I agree. But I would really love to try co2 y'know? Plus I've already purchased & rigged up my co2 system . I am just waiting for the plants now. I was only hoping if there was a way to reduce the lighting levels a bit.

Thank you for your help, though.


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## ceg4048 (9 Mar 2011)

faizal said:
			
		

> My tank: Its a bow front . 14 inches (height) ; 23.5 inches (length); 12 inches (depth) . About 16.8 US Gallons
> Filter : Cannister filter with 450L/ hr rating (China made)
> Lights: 2 units of T5 measuring 8 watts each placed 4 feet above the water surface.


Hi,
   In my opinion, for a 17 gallon tank your original plan of using 16 watts T5 is fine. Other posters have suggested 2X 24W T5 for this tank but I think that would be a mistake unless you have epic CO2 and flow.



			
				faizal said:
			
		

> My worries are
> 1. Room ambient temperature is around 32-33'C ( That's right!!!  ) I live in Malaysia, South East Asia & at the moment cannot afford a chiller.


I don't see this as a problem at all. I've grown even low-temperature-loving ferns and mosses at 33C water temperatures. It's not ideal but it's not really a big deal either. It just means that you need excellent CO2.



			
				faizal said:
			
		

> I plan to run the 2 aquarium fans in the morning with hopes of bringing down the room temp to about 30'C,...then pray that the further 3'C drop at night will not affect my plants or future fishes. High hopes?? I don't know,pls advise


Why is this minor temperature variation even a concern? Personally I wouldn't worry about this at all.



			
				faizal said:
			
		

> I also plan on running an airstone 24hrs a day / 7 days a week to keep the O2 levels up and happy.


As mentioned in another post, this is an extremely bad idea. This is a planted tank correct? Well if that's the case plants produce high levels of oxygen and saturate the water with Oxygen. Using an airstone causes both CO2 and the Oxygen that the plants are producing to escape much more quickly which is bad for plants and bad for fish. During the night it can be useful, but not when the lights and CO2 are on.

Cheers,


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## faizal (9 Mar 2011)

Thank you!! Thank you!! Thank you!!
You have no IDEA how much your advice means to me!!! 

I will stick with your advice. 

1) No airstones in the morning. Airstones coming on at NIGHT only. Switching them off 2 hrs prior lights on.
2) Sticking with total 16 watts t5 4 inches above the water column.
3) Stopped worrying about those temp fluctuations from now on.

Thanks again!! You guys are awesome!! Thank you Ceg,...for such an amazing reassurance & in depth explanation.

Ceg,...any ballpark figure for the bubbles per second of CO2 injection rate for my tank please?


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## ceg4048 (9 Mar 2011)

Hi mate,
            it's not really a good idea to focus too much on bubble rate because bubbles are all different sizes. I assume that you will set the tank up without fish first so that you don't need to worry about toxicity. Just start with 1 bubble per second one or two hours before lights on. If the dropchecker is lime green by the time the lights come on then you will be off to a good start. Then monitor the color as the photoperiod goes on. If you see it turn yellow a few hours into the photoperiod then you know that the rate might be too high and that the fish might suffer. Drop the rate a little and see how it goes.

The real trick to injection is to ensure that the CO2 level is high when lights go on, but that the rate isn't so high that the peak concentration level exceeds the toxicity limits later on during the period. That might mean using a slower injection rate but turning on the gas much earlier before lights on.

Cheers,


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## faizal (10 Mar 2011)

If you could only see me now,..... I have this huge dumb grin on my face and & for some reason I can't seem to switch it off  But it's not really turned green like this guy's yet!!!!

That was probably the best lesson anyone had ever given me on CO2 tweaking. Thank you Ceg!!! I will do exactly as you just explained.  

I was initially quite daunted on starting off on co2. But you have shown me possibitilies on how to over come the problems that i had in my mind with a simple step by step solution. 

The key word here is patience .   So if the Drop Checker turns yellow about 3 hrs into the photoperiod,...then I basically wait it out till it is LIGHTS OUT TIME, then tweak down my bubble rate and observe the whole thing the next day till I get the proper reading that I would want, right? Adjustment of the rates is done on a daily basis till I hit the mark  

Amazing. Thanks again for the upteenth time!!!

If all goes well,...I'll keep you posted on how things develop.

P.S. - Yes. You are right. I only plan on adding fishes after 2 - 3 months once the tank is slightly matured. Some neons, SAEs. I plan to keep the bio load very low. I thought it might make for some easy maintanence. 

Faizal


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## ceg4048 (11 Mar 2011)

Hi Faizal,
               Yes, I think you have a good grip on the method. Mastering CO2 is both art and science. In a way, the tank talks to you via the dropchecker but you have to wait for it to finish talking and then answer it the next day.

If you haven't already done so, you might wander over to the Tutorial Section of the forum and check out the thread CO2 MEASUREMENT USING A DROP CHECKER

Also, I just re-read your original post and only now just realized that you will mount the lights 4 feet above the tank. I don't know why but I originally saw 4 inches. Now I see why George suggested a stronger wattage as the 2X 8 watt T5 bulbs may look a bit dim mounted that far away. Ferns and mosses won't have too much trouble but some other plants might grow very slowly. Is there a lot of ambient light in the room, or can you reduce this distance a bit? I do apologize.

If you have a camera/phone perhaps you can show us the tank?

Cheers,


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## faizal (12 Mar 2011)

My dear friend,..I should be the one apologising to you & George as I had made an error in typing. In fact you DID get it right the first time. My lights are infact : A Pair of T5s, 8 WATTS EACH, raised 4 INCHES not "feet"above the water surface ( as I had mistakenly typed in my first post).*** Please refer to the 3rd post on page 1

I AM TRULY SORRY FOR THIS CONFUSION. 

EVERYONE IN THIS FORUM HAS BEEN ABSOLUTELY KIND & COURTEOUS TO AN ABSOLUTE NEWBIE,...I thank you again.

I am not that great with computers,..so I am going to get my wife's help to upload my tanks pictures soon. Kindly do bear with my ignorance  please


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## ceg4048 (13 Mar 2011)

OK mate, no worries. I just wanted to ensure that the data being provided to you were accurate.

Please have the wife review the thread How do you post a picture in the Technical/Help section for instruction on how to display images.

Cheers,


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## faizal (14 Mar 2011)

Thanks again Ceg.

This is to show the positioning of my filter outlets(left front corner) & the Eheim power head ( rear right corner)


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## faizal (14 Mar 2011)

View from the right side : Should I replace that filter outflow with a vertical spray bar instead? That dark ball like thing on the rear wall (right side) near the power head is the airstone that I would be running during lights out.





My Lights:


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## ceg4048 (14 Mar 2011)

Hi Faizal,
             OK, that is about what I imagined. I do have two concerns though. The first is that aesthetically, I think it would have been better to mount the intake pipes at the back of the tank instead of giving them such a prominent place in the front. They could then be hidden by plants so that they would tend to disappear. That's just a personal thing though and does not really affect anything.

The second item is much more important though. Assuming your pump is rated at 10X the tank volume or more I would choose to send the flow through a spraybar mounted horizontally at the top of the tank. That will give a much better distribution of flow which is so very important in this type of tank. You could run a tube from the output nozzle up to top at which point a 90 degree elbow would then send it into the spraybar. There would be some loss of energy with all that bending but the overall effect would be an improvement.

Cheers,


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## faizal (15 Mar 2011)

Hi Ceg,

I. I will change the position of the filter INTAKE pipe to the back of the tank. I totally agree that it really spoils the whole view of the tank.  I wanted the cannister filter OUT FLOW (at the front left corner of the tank) to meet directly with the co2 diffuser at the opposite lower end. Should I leave the filter OUTFLOW PIPE in the front or should I move it to the rear left corner as well?

2. Should I mount the horizontal spray bar coming from the pump along the rear wall of the tank or should it be placed along the right side wall of the tank, please?

I will post the pictures once I get back home ( I am at work currently  )

I am having some problems with my plant delivery because the local fish shop that I had initially ordered them from is sort of closing down for business  ) Therefore I had just ordered from another nursery & they are due for arrival on the 21st of March (Mon).

My plant list has changed somewhat now.

Foreground : Mini Fissidens & Staurogyne species
Midground: Blyxia japonica & Anubias nana petite.
Background: Hygrophila difformis, Hygrophila polysperma var & Limnophila species "Vietnam" ( I am afraid I really don't know its real scientific name).

Anyways just thought that you should know.  

Thanks again for all the help. All this is really cool .


Faizal


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## ceg4048 (15 Mar 2011)

Good stuff mate. Yes, all outflow pipes/devices should be mounted along the back wall and should be pointing directly towards the front glass. If it were me I would also plumb the external filter outflow into a second spraybar so that I'd have spraybar coverage along the entire length of the tank along that back wall. It's then a matter of finding the best place for the diffuser. That might be low down on the back wall or nearer to the fron. You have to play with the positioning to see which position works best. If you have a pH test kit you can take periodic samples of the pH throughout the photoperiod to see how effective one position is compared to another. The idea is to drop the pH as rapidly as possible, so for example, you can take a reading once an hour and plot the results to see the pH profile change. Plot, on a graph pH value versus time. Then, change the position of the diffuser and repeat the tests. Compare the plots and it will become obvious which position works best.

Hope this makes sense...

Cheers,


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## faizal (16 Mar 2011)

Hi Ceg,...I did this when I came back home last night.Couldn't do more than that as my kids needed my time with their daddy after a long day.    So that spray bar will be attached to my Eheim pump on the rear right corner there. I will be finishing the job today when I get home(hopefully  ). Also I will move the filter outlet that you see here (front left corner)  as you had advised to the back near the filter uptake bar(rear left corner) & hook it up to a parallel spray bar that would run just below the one that you see there on the rear wall.

I understood what you had explained there regarding the pH monitoring. Amazing Ceg !!! I'm really not trying to be a chancer here, my friend, but you really give such simple and well thought out solutions to lots of problems. I have a Tetra Ph Test kit which I plan to use for that purpose. Initially I was thinking of getting a PH pen but I think I will save the money for a PAR Apogee (MQ 200). A very long term plan .

I think I will try placing the co2 diffuser directly in the middle of the rear wall of the aquarium(To start with). Just behind those 2 small central rocks,...beside my airstone(which will only run during lights off time). I would then try it at different places & compare the PH readings.

Kindly give me sometime to post the next picture please. Take care & thank you.


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## faizal (20 Mar 2011)

I am very sorry for taking too much time on posting this Clive .

So here's how the tank is looking now. I have put 2 parallel running spray bars through out the length of the rear tank wall.

I have chosen the new position for the co2 ceramic diffuser as you can see now.

I had 2 units of aquarium fans mounted up on the tank initially but I can only mount one up now . Looking for a decent place to mount the other one up. 

Thank you Clive because there was no way I would have thought of mountinng the spray bars up as I have here without your help. It looks awesome. I know that the grey pvc tube looks kind of a scene spoiler there but this is all really exciting to a newbie y'now?!!  I could literally feel the "Power of the Flow"


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## faizal (20 Mar 2011)

Just waiting for my plants to arrive now. Tuesday 22nd of March. It's been postponed by the new supplier,..but that's okay.


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## ceg4048 (21 Mar 2011)

Hi faizal,
              Yes, that looks so much neater now and you'll get a much more even flow distribution along the length of the tank. Once you get the plants in there the hardware will start to disappear. It looks so much nicer with those tube moved to the back. A 100% improvement.   

Cheers,


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## faizal (22 Mar 2011)

Thanks Clive!!! But I was just following your advice. The compliment actually goes back to you my friend. I was just lucky enough to come to a forum where everyone truly does this for the absolute love & passion of this hobby. 

Thanks again!!


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## faizal (22 Mar 2011)

Yes !! Finally !!! Just got my plants a few hours ago !    Ahh !!! It's going to be a long sweet night. Been planning this for far too long,....far too long ! 

I was wondering if  I  could continue to upload the pictures here under the General Planted Discussions or should I move it to a new thread under the Journal Forum? 

Could someone advise please? 

Thank you .

Faizal


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## ceg4048 (22 Mar 2011)

Hi faizal,
             It's really up to you mate. Might be best to start a new Journal thread if you can.

Cheers,


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## faizal (23 Mar 2011)

Thanks Clive!! I just planted my tank last night. Went on till 2:30 am   It's 12:10pm now in Malaysia. As you had mentioned earlier, the plants are all moving slightly  especially the Blyxias. You are right,....spray bars mounted at the back provide so much better flow coverage!!! I just wish I had obtained a more powerful cannister filter instead of my Eheim pump,..y'know? I feel like the spray bars are giving a much better flow coverage but the force of current by itself is not that powerful so as to blow the plants away .

I did not switch on the lights last night. The plant supplier had informed me that the Hygrophila polysperma and the Hygrophila difformis were only about a week into the submersed culture before he delivered them to me. The upper leaves of the H.difformis are just transforming. So I discarded the lower half & planted the upper half. 

I DID NOT switch on the light last night. But I have been running the CO2 at  1 bps since I filled up the tank and I have not switched them off. I am only doing this for TODAY . I am not sure if I am doing the right thing but I thought it might help the plants to adjust better without much stress on their first day. I have absolutely no scientific basis to support this action,...but just a paranoid gut feeling about those newly submersed H.difformis & H.polysperma.

First day of photoperiod begins today. I'm switching on the lights everyday from 8pm to 2am. This is about the time when I am at home & this helps me to keep an eye on the tank & monitor the co2 as you had advised me  I will then continue with my current rate of 1 bps as a baseline co2 injection rate and monitor the pH drop vs time(in order to determine the best position for the co2 ceramic diffuser) AND monitor the drop checker's colour change for tweaking the co2 injection rate.  

And, yes, I think it would be better if I start a new journal so that other newbies like me could bump into my tank and pick up on all those cool things that you have taught me so far. 

Again, I don't think I can ever say this enough,...but thank you so much for helping me.  

Take care.

Faizal


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