# Wits end with vallis..... Please help



## fz1ben (4 Jul 2015)

Hi guys

I've been trying ........and failing for months and months to grow two large patches of giant vallis in my 6ft tanganyika display tank.My vision was two areas where the vallis would grow to the surface and add height and interest to the tank.

I have 2 gro beam 600s and 2 mini tiles hooked up to the 8 way controller. The lights can be moved anywhere on the tank. So I have complete control of lighting.

My ph is 8.2 / 8.4 kh 14 and gh 18 the tank is approximately 550l and I perform 220l per week water changes.The substrate is about 80% sand with some gravel mixed in.

I've placed root tabs under the plants and tried dosing ferts (lightly admittedly ) All that happens is the vallis slowly dies over a period of months.

I'd be eternally grateful if anyone can help me to achieve my goal of lush tall growth. This has me stumped I feel as If I've tried everything I can. It can't be impossible and I won't give up........ but I need help.



Many thanks in advance


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## kirk (4 Jul 2015)

Hi,  I can't see brilliantly on this phone, but it looks like you have bba, also melt.

I'm guessing you are not using co2? Are you dosing liquid carbon?   Your lighting is too much, how long are they on for?  We need a bit more info please to be of more help, ie light time /distance from surface, fert dosing, whether you use co2. Filter turn over, flow rate.  You do have a serious case of bba I would concentrate on trying to iradicate that as from what I can see that's the only thing that is happy.


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## fz1ben (4 Jul 2015)

Hi kirk thanks for the reply
no co2 or liquid carbon the altolamprologus I keep are hyper sensitive to it. The lights sit on the glass sliders so probably 3/4 inchs from the surface and 24" from the subtracted. The tank is filtered by a massive eheim 2260 2400lph and and an eheim experience 350 1100lph..

The bba has always been a problem really it grows well on the rock work but I've learnt to live with it as it brings some great natural behaviour out it the fish. I do spot dose with hydrogen peroxide to keep it in check or remove the rocks and dip them in a peroxide bath.

The lights are on for 7 hours with a long ramp up and down and set to 75%


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## kirk (4 Jul 2015)

Have you tried reducing the lighting to sat 50 percent at all? You are close to running low tech, I'd probably reduce the light to 30/40 percent for a bit, what happens to the leaves before they break off or you remove them? Are they going yellow?


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## fz1ben (4 Jul 2015)

I've tried reducing the lights but didn't see much improve, if you think it's worth a shot ill do it. Yes the end of the leaves sort of melt and turn yellow.


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## fz1ben (4 Jul 2015)

Fts from April,  you can see the two patches of green but still no height.


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## xim (4 Jul 2015)

The light may be two low. A Grobeam 600's PAR reading is just 16-18 micromols at 58 cm from the substrate at 100% setting.
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/anyone-using-these-without-trouble.30700/


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## kirk (4 Jul 2015)

Try reducing light adding more ferts too. One of the plants needs nesting back into the substrate a little.  That is making me think are the fish ripping them up? I've heard of this happening at lights off to vallis with certain fish too. I like the rock work, we just need to get your plant problem sorted for a great scape, stick with it.
I had great results with jbl slow release clay balls .  Pushed into the substrate.


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## kirk (4 Jul 2015)

xim said:


> The light may be two low. A Grobeam 600's PAR reading is just 16-18 micromols at 58 cm from the substrate at 100% setting.
> http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/anyone-using-these-without-trouble.30700/


Could be. I'm unfamiliar with the mentioned led. But for me algae and melting plant has me knocking lighting back. I've had vallis growing mad low tech under a desk lamp over a two ft deep cube. That mad I got sick of vallis and threw it away as it took over.   If we were talking about a demanding plant I would say strait away from that thread I agree.  Vallis normally doesn't need a lot of light to grow.    Are there new roots on any of your remains plants? I'm quickly running out of questions.


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## fz1ben (4 Jul 2015)

When I tried the lights at 100% the algae grew faster and I started getting hair alage on the substrate too.


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## xim (4 Jul 2015)

If the solution to grow plants without algae was just dialling into a light level,
many threads in the forums would not exist.


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## Andy D (4 Jul 2015)

Flow / distribution could be an issue. Those Vallis looked quite well protected from the flow by those rocks.


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## fz1ben (4 Jul 2015)

The ones on the right of the tank don't get that much flow but the ones in the middle do and there's no difference. Do you think lack of flow would cause such problems?


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## PARAGUAY (4 Jul 2015)

You have the vision about how you want the tank but initially I would throw away the poorly vallis,the BBA treat  with Easy Carb or similar,consider as Kirk suggests lower lighting,if it was me I would change to a couple of T8,it is a low tech as is your set up.Plant really heavily with good quality stem plants with your vallis.Egeria,Hygrophilla fast growers which should help fight off any algae issues,the heavier you initially plant the better when the vallis starts to spread with runners gradully remove the others.Stems are taking a lot from the water column so water changes and again good liquid fertiliser daily dosed.I believe vallis in the wild gros on the margins in sand with gentle flow.


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## alto (4 Jul 2015)

Which tang's are you keeping?
 - I kept A compressiceps, P nigripinnis, L ocellatus 'blue', "lampeyes" (shipped as A normani) in a limited plant tank, adding lower levels of CO2 (maybe 1bp 2-3 sec): Microsorum 'Narrow' & 'Philippine', E acicularis, V americana (natans) & V spiralis 'Tiger'... both vals easily grew 1m leaves, the acicularis struggled a bit (nice clumps but no ground cover), both Microsorums were bent on world domination ...
It's been a while so I don't recall GH/KH etc but loads of "limescale" , pH 8ish, Carib Sea Aragonite as substrate (my very nice fish guy had a Marine shop & special ordered/shipped fish & plants & CO2 system etc, I'd picked up the substrate & tank).

I didn't have any brush algae (or particularly great flow as it was just whatever filters shipped with the tank kits), but did need to stir the sand re that (common) blueish/greenish algae that slowly grows.
I had rather less rock. Lighting was just standard fluorescent, though I ordered in "fancy" bulbs, I ran the lights 10-12h, dosed Tropica fertilizer at water change (50% weekly), I'd started with Tropica pots (20 as that was the minimum order) & plants were established for a couple months before adding fish (I did have some Amano shrimp, but they were eventually sorted out by the A comps).


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## xim (5 Jul 2015)

xim said:


> The light may be two low. A Grobeam 600's PAR reading is just 16-18 micromols at 58 cm from the substrate at 100% setting.
> http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/anyone-using-these-without-trouble.30700/



Info about light level for various aquatic plants.
http://answers.seneye.com/index.php?title=en/Aquarium_help/What_is_PAR_&_PUR_?/fresh_water_plant_PAR_levels

Vallisneria americana 50 micromoles minimum, Vallisneria spiralis 40 micromoles min.

Even Tom Barr will be hard pressed to recommend going lower than 30 micromoles.


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## Martin in Holland (5 Jul 2015)

My guess would be that they lack of nutrients, I had vallis even growing in a goldfish tank without any flow and a small light bulb, but the fish poo gave it enough nutrients for sure.


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## fz1ben (5 Jul 2015)

This is what's so confusing for me....... Some people say lower light some people say increase light?



PARAGUAY said:


> You have the vision about how you want the tank but initially I would throw away the poorly vallis,the BBA treat  with Easy Carb or similar,consider as Kirk suggests lower lighting,if it was me I would change to a couple of T8,it is a low tech as is your set up.Plant really heavily with good quality stem plants with your vallis.Egeria,Hygrophilla fast growers which should help fight off any algae issues,the heavier you initially plant the better when the vallis starts to spread with runners gradully remove the others.Stems are taking a lot from the water column so water changes and again good liquid fertiliser daily dosed.I believe vallis in the wild gros on the margins in sand with gentle flow.


 I really don't want to go to t8 tubes I don't like the look of flouresent tubes plus I paid close to  £500 for the ability to have full control and sunrise/sunset feature. I could turn the lights right down to match t8 lighting. 

When the lights are on 50% the tank looks very dull to the eye

I've grown some very nice low tech tanks and always planted heavy from the start with fast growing species. The problem is I can't plant heavily due to all the rock work which I need for the fish.

I've planted some cryptcoryne balansae amongst the vallis thinking this was a good species for clean hard water and low light but after 3 months it's barely hanging on?


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## Tim Harrison (5 Jul 2015)

Nutrient deficiency is my bet too.


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## fz1ben (5 Jul 2015)

You think so troi.? It's got a fair few fish and I feed them well. Would you add just micro nutrients? Think I have a bottle of easy life profito  somewhere


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## Tim Harrison (5 Jul 2015)

Well you can only give dosing a try, it may work, but if it doesn't at least you can rule it out. I'd go with a complete macro/micro solution. And get some more vallis.


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## fz1ben (5 Jul 2015)

I've got some aqua essentials neutro plus I used on a high tech tank. Would you cut the dosage due to the low light and no c02?


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## James O (5 Jul 2015)

With those two filters I think the simplest thing, before you start adding things, would be to change your water changes and reduce your light intensity.

Reduce it to 100l per week (or 220l every other week) and let the fish poop work its magic 

Your tank could well be too clean


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## fz1ben (5 Jul 2015)

I did think this could be a issue james, the water runs through a nitrate filter first too, the level in the tank is 5-10 maybe if the test kit can be believed. Not sure I'd be willing to cut down the changes I think dosing might be a better option. Still confused over the lights some people say there really powerful others say there too weak........ compared to my kessils on my reef tank there pretty crap but I thought they'd be plenty to grow some vallis


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## dw1305 (6 Jul 2015)

Hi all,


Troi said:


> Nutrient deficiency is my bet too





fz1ben said:


> the water runs through a nitrate filter first too, the level in the tank is 5-10 maybe if the test kit can be believed.


I agree with Troi, and think that is probably the answer, you can't believe the test kit and you don't have any nitrate. Most nutrient deficiencies are either nitrogen (N) or potassium (K).  

If you have plants you don't need the nitrate filter, nitrate levels will go down, rather than up, over time. At the moment the BBA is your "plant", I don't see it as a bad thing, but it doesn't grow very quickly and it is quite difficult to harvest. If you want some more plant mass _Ceratophyllum_ and_ Pistia _are both native to Lake Tanganyika and could be used with _Cyprichromis_ etc. I like _Ceratophyllum_ as a sub-surface floater. I've got a lot spare of both if you want to go down that route. 

Also ignore what people tell you on cichlid keeping forums about plants (unless its me), for whatever reason a lot of Rift lake cichlid keepers are pathologically ill disposed towards plants.

Disconnect the chemical filtration, and after a couple of weeks if the plants still don't perk up I'd try feeding again at a low level with a complete mix from one of our sponsors, you can use 1/10th EI or the "Duckweed index".

Both _Cryptocoryne balansae_ and _Vallisneria_ are plants from hard water, so micro-element deficiencies are more unlikely.  





kirk said:


> One of the plants needs nesting back into the substrate a little.


Same for me. I would stick the light right over the top of the plants, and additionally plant them much more deeply in the substrate. _Vallisneria _propagates via runners from the growing point at the base of the leaves, and this really needs to be below the substrate.

cheers Darrel


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## Martin in Holland (6 Jul 2015)

Another easy way to dose nutrients direct to your plants is with miracle grow pellets. Just take an ice-cube tray poor in a few pellets per compartment poor a little water on top (just enough to get them to stick together later), freezzzz it and foila, you have nutrient tabs...maybe not the nicest to look at but they do the trick of being able to push them into the substrate.


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## Chris Jackson (6 Jul 2015)

I'm in the lack of nutrient camp, leaves melting and turning yellow means starvation... I too have pretty much given up on Valis because of how it took over my tanks. Valis will be happy in high or low light as long as it has enough nutrients. My suggestion would be to get some fresh bunches and plant those more densely along with some root tabs as you have a nutrient poor sand/gravel substrate (I like the ice cube tray idea...) . Dense planting will multiply more quickly and well Valis seems happier in a crowd.. Additional CO2 can only help but it isn't essential in my experience. Smaller more frequent water changes will add CO2 steadily from the tap. 

You can only experiment with the lighting levels but high light means high demands for photosynthesis which then means high demands for nutrients and co2 and opens up a whole world of challenges. Light is primary the driver of growth and slow and steady is way way easier to manage than rampant so try dialing it down to a minimum level that is pleasing to you and take it from there.


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## fz1ben (6 Jul 2015)

Thanks for the detailed reply Darrell

The fish I keep are mainly wild caughts so I keep the nitrate as low as I can.I understand the plants need for it too I just thought the fish/filter would produce enough for the plants to use.

I'd happily take some plants off your hands that's very kind of you

I've moved the lights directly above the two areas of planting and running them at 50%

I was under the impression not to bury the vallis too deep....... I thought if the crown was under the substrate they would struggle?

The bba algae on the rocks doesn't really worry me, I think kept in check a little it looks quite natural.One theory I had is that maybe the bba was stripping the nutrients from the water but not sure if that would make that much difference?


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## fz1ben (6 Jul 2015)

Thanks chris

The small water changes wouldn't add any co2 as I keep 250/300 l of water ready at all times so the co2 would of out gassed long before the water change.This is mainly for the fishes need for high ph clean stable water. I've added some all in one ferts ill try and slowly raise the nitrate levels and see where that takes me. I'll add some new vallis when I can find somewhere that doesn't keep fish in their plant systems. ......


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## xim (6 Jul 2015)

fz1ben said:


> I've moved the lights directly above the two areas of planting and running them at 50%



That's a good move, because your tank is big. The side walls are too far away to help give the reflection.
And the big rocks just block the reflection from the front wall.



fz1ben said:


> I was under the impression not to bury the vallis too deep....... I thought if the crown was under the substrate they would struggle?



To give the best chance for it to grow. It's best to half-burry the crown. The green dashed line is substrate level.
This gives the plant stability against water current or when animal runs into it. The leaves could sway in water current but the crown should not.

(I added the green line to the Tropica's original image)





When the crown is buried too deep, IME, the new leaves seems to have problem squeezing through the centre of the crown.

Anyway, when they shoot runners. Some will grow above the substrate. It's not the best position. But with the support from the mother plant, it should be okay, like in the picture. If it's too far from the substrate, you could help it by pushing it down.


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## Chris Jackson (7 Jul 2015)

fz1ben said:


> Thanks chris
> 
> The small water changes wouldn't add any co2 as I keep 250/300 l of water ready at all times so the co2 would of out gassed long before the water change.This is mainly for the fishes need for high ph clean stable water. I've added some all in one ferts ill try and slowly raise the nitrate levels and see where that takes me. I'll add some new vallis when I can find somewhere that doesn't keep fish in their plant systems. ......



Ah I see..lucky fishes!

so just a word of caution with the ferts you need to be aware that plants take time so be patient as it may take days before you really notice the initial effects especially if you're resuscitating struggling plants.


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## dw1305 (7 Jul 2015)

Hi all, 





fz1ben said:


> I'd happily take some plants off your hands that's very kind of you


PM me your address. You can have as much as you like of both for p&p.

cheers Darrel


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## fz1ben (19 Jul 2015)

Right guys thanks for all your help

I've planted a load more vallis, moved the lights directly above the plants and I'm going to start dosing 5ml a day of neutro plus. I've also turned the lights down to 50% (a little worried about this) and ill see how I get on.

Cheers


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