# Hobby laterite balls? Any reviews?



## Sarpijk (10 Jan 2019)

Hi all, I came across this product

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hobby-laterite-balls-strips-alkalinity/dp/B00CDNOG98

lately after getting really frustrated with problems growing Rotala sp. and Limnophila Aromatica I started looking into  simpler ways of fertilization. My substrate is Seachem Flourite. 

Is there any benefit to adding this product? I already insert individual Osmocote+ balls under rooted plants.


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## Edvet (10 Jan 2019)

Should be a Fe source and clay, not much else.


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## Sarpijk (5 May 2019)

Hi, I got said Laterite balls last week and based on the instructions I placed them deep in the substrate. In the package there is no extra information other than the fact that this is a source of long term nutrition.

How soon can I see results, if any ?


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## zozo (7 May 2019)

From an Iron (Fe) perspective in relation to plants the Red Laterite Clay containing an Iron 3 Oxide (Fe2O3) is a bit of an Urban myth.. Because the plant roots can't do much with this Iron if it first isn't processed to Iron 2 Oxide (FeO). This process only occurs biologicaly in a Anaerobic invironment, thus it needs to be very deep into the substrate in anaerobic pockets.. As long as it stays Fe2O3 it's pretty inert and insoluble into water.

Tho it is and stays a clay, most likely containing other beneficial micro elements and it still has a good CEC, no problem and it can't hurt using it as addition in any type of substrate for plants.

The only questionmark - Putting it in a well oxigenated substrate type it likely will not solve an Iron defficiency in plants. 

Only in the tutorials from hobbyist knowing this from the sold red clay powder or balls, recomend putting this clay layer in first in the deepest part of the substrate preferably capped with a layer of sand. Than still we don't know if the Iron in it ever becomes available to the plants. 



Sarpijk said:


> How soon can I see results, if any ?



This depends on the type of defficiency and what does the clay contain. If the defficiency from a mobile element such as NPK and Mg it could be pretty quick within days. non mobile elements (Micros) can take a few weeks to show. This again can depend on other factors such as Light intensity, duration, type of substrate, plant sp. and overall plant health.


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## Oldguy (7 May 2019)

Sarpijk said:


> Seachem Flourite.



Always thought this was a laterite. The only useful thing with this product is that being crushed the plants stayed anchored. Would not buy it again.

I see these products as snake oil.

Iron and trace elements best dosed as chelated compounds that you buy as dry powders and mix yourself. Low cost and controlled dosing.

Plants with submerged leaf development absorb nutrients from the water column.

Always suspicious of anaerobic substrates, the largest of home aquariums is minute compared with even small natural ponds which sit in a large and hidden water table.

Sometimes find that 'difficult' plants thrive while 'easy' plants in the same tank just never get going. Makes the hobby interesting, if frustrating.


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## Sarpijk (7 May 2019)

I like Flourite for the same reason, it keeps plants planted! On the other hand although I have dry ferts and know what and how to dose but lately I have realised that I like a simpler approach to fertlising. I have another tank that was set from the beginning with two centimetres soil for gardenias and the crypts thrive in it. The reason I got these balls was to add iron in the roots and stop dosing if it were possible.


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## zozo (7 May 2019)

Sorry wrong topic..  Good murning!...


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## zozo (7 May 2019)

Sarpijk said:


> The reason I got these balls was to add iron in the roots and stop dosing if it were possible.



I got them for the very same reason and doing some redeang after that it might simply do not. For the simple reason it might not contain the Fe the plant can use. Still put it in the substrate and use all kinds of clay tabs and none of them say on the label what it contains specificaly. Used the HS Aqua, which is a light brown tab, the Velda a grey tab (blue clay) the laterite the Red one. It likely contains mainly miro elements maybe also some iron.

I never realy added any iron specific fert, but do add complete micro solution in some.. I guess it highly depends on the plant sp. and its iron requirment. For example Zosterifolia heteranthera even tho flaged as easy it seems to be a rather Fe loving plant especialy when growing high tech. I once grew it and it indeed turned white tips after it grew bigger, typical iron defficiency,even tho the substrate contained laterite clay tabs all over. It still showed this defficiency while other plants where thriving mad. I swapped it with an other plant and never grew it again.

Iron defficiency is pretty uncomon with normal fert schemes, even never had it in tanks i never fertilized a drop. Adding it without any obvious reasons seems redundant to me.


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## dw1305 (7 May 2019)

Hi all,





zozo said:


> As long as it stays Fe2O3 it's pretty inert and insoluble into water.





Oldguy said:


> I see these products as snake oil.


That is the one, it is why all these old tropical soils are red and quartz rich, everything that is potentially soluble has been washed away, just leaving insoluble quartz and iron (& aluminium) oxides & hydroxides. The iron can't be plant available, or it would have been leached away over the millennia. You can legitimately call "Flourite" "_iron rich_", but so is a <"red house brick"> and the iron is equally soluble in either case. 





Oldguy said:


> Always thought this was a laterite.


It probably is, possibly naturally heat treated by volcanic action. 

This is alluded to in this old <"Seachem Flourite"> thread quote from Seachem's Dr Greg Morin.





> Flourite is a naturally mined porous fracted clay substrate that is rich in iron (mainly ferric)......All I can say is, the material has experienced high levels of heat. It is naturally mined. And the order actually would be crushed, cleaned, and bagged


Which sounds very much like the description for <"Akadama">. 

The description of the <"Akadama/Kanuma mining process"> in the link, and the pictures of the underlying layer of pumice (below), made me wonder whether Seachem might have originally sourced their "Flourite" and <"Matrix"> from the same hole in the ground. 



 

cheers Darrel


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## Sarpijk (7 May 2019)

Enlightening as always Darrel! So as I see it it would be better to just rescape using some  "dirt". Would adding  pumice at the base provide any benefit? I realised that Ada's Power sand is a type of pumice as stated by Amano in one of the books.  Also what about the school of thought that a really deep substrate can cause denitrification?


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## dw1305 (7 May 2019)

Hi all, 





Sarpijk said:


> So as I see it it would be better to just rescape using some "dirt".


@Oldguy's suggestion of adding chelated iron is an easier solution. 





Sarpijk said:


> Would adding pumice at the base provide any benefit?


It definitely wouldn't do any harm.





Sarpijk said:


> Also what about the school of thought that a really deep substrate can cause denitrification?


It probably will and that might become more likely with micro-porous pumice. Have a look at @Manuel Arias's comments in <"Which filter media...">. Iron will become available under anaerobic conditions.  





Sarpijk said:


> How soon can I see results, if any ?





Sarpijk said:


> lately after getting really frustrated with problems growing Rotala sp. and Limnophila Aromatica I started looking into simpler ways of fertilization.


If it iron deficiency only new leaves will be normal, the plant can move the iron from older to newer leaves. Do the plants look iron deficient? Like these, with pale growing tips? (from <"Micronutrient toxicity or deficiency....>")





cheers Darrel


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## sparkyweasel (7 May 2019)

dw1305 said:


> This is alluded to in this old <"Seachem Flourite"> thread quote from Seachem's Dr Greg Morin.Which sounds very much like the description for <"Akadama">.
> _
> Flourite is a naturally mined porous fracted clay substrate that is rich in iron (mainly ferric)......All I can say is, the material has experienced high levels of heat. It is naturally mined. And the order actually would be crushed, cleaned, and bagged
> _


Any idea what "naturally mined" means?
Do they wait for badgers to dig it up?


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## dw1305 (7 May 2019)

Hi all,





sparkyweasel said:


> Do they wait for badgers to dig it up?


You can ask Seachem, but I'm pretty sure they won't confirm, or deny, it.

cheers Darrel


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## zozo (8 May 2019)

dw1305 said:


> This is alluded to in this old <"Seachem Flourite"> thread quote from Seachem's Dr Greg Morin.



Could it be Bentonite Clay?..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bentonite#Sodium_bentonite

https://www.fruithillfarm.com/bentonite-clay.html

USA seems to have enough of it in all kinds of colors
https://aneyefortexas.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/colors-of-bentonite/


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## dw1305 (8 May 2019)

Hi all, 





zozo said:


> Could it be Bentonite Clay?..


The montmorillonite clays (like calcium and sodium bentonite) are also of volcanic origin, but they are physically unstable (they expand when wet) and have a very high CEC, so I don't think that is the right clay. 

On our campus they've just used injected bentonite clay ("drilling mud") in the dam of the lake to stop the leak. It is also what they use for "clumping cat litter".

cheers Darrel


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## Sarpijk (23 Dec 2019)

Hi all,

Resurrecting this Laterite related topic bacause I stumbled upon the instructions by the manufacturer. What drew my attention was the reference to the " slightly anaerobic" and the " organic acids". Does it hold any true or is it just a convenient explanation for marketing?


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## Edvet (23 Dec 2019)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhizosphere


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## dw1305 (23 Dec 2019)

Hi all,





Sarpijk said:


> Resurrecting this Laterite related topic bacause I stumbled upon the instructions by the manufacturer. What drew my attention was the reference to the " slightly anaerobic" and the " organic acids". Does it hold any true or is it just a convenient explanation for marketing?


It is certainly true more generally. Ferrous (Fe++) ions are only likely to become available in acidic reducing conditions.

Plants are very interested in controlling iron levels in the substrate, mainly because it combines being an essential micro-nutrient, at low levels, with being toxic at higher ones. Roots are leaky structures, and plants that are tolerant of water logging in acidic substrates often successfully oxidise iron in their rhizosphere to control toxicity.

The real question with lateritic soils would be whether they have any potentially soluble iron compounds present. If all the iron is bound in insoluble compounds, than it might need to be severely reducing conditions before any iron ions become available.

Cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee (16 Nov 2021)

sparkyweasel said:


> Any idea what "naturally mined" means?
> Do they wait for badgers to dig it up


Brilliant!

😅😂🤣😊

JPC


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## jaypeecee (16 Nov 2021)

dw1305 said:


> The real question with lateritic soils would be whether they have any potentially soluble iron compounds present. If all the iron is bound in insoluble compounds, than it might need to be severely reducing conditions before any iron ions become available.


Hi @dw1305 

On page 132 (Third Edition), _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_, Diana Walstad has a section on the topic of Metal Toxicity. She mixed potting soil with laterite and the result was high iron levels in the water. Floating plants were the first to suffer, followed by Java Fern and then, rooted plants detached from the substrate and floated to the surface.

Thus, under some conditions, laterite is more soluble than perhaps we would expect.

JPC


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## tiger15 (16 Nov 2021)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @dw1305
> 
> On page 132 (Third Edition), _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_, Diana Walstad has a section on the topic of Metal Toxicity. She mixed potting soil with laterite and the result was high iron levels in the water. Floating plants were the first to suffer, followed by Java Fern and then, rooted plants detached from the substrate and floated to the surface.
> 
> ...


With mixture of potting soil and laterite, it is unknowable where the soluble iron came from.  Potting soil tends to be acidic and reducing due to presence of organic and micros that favors solubility of iron, besides the soil itself contains iron.  Unless the test is conducted on laterite alone as control, the conclusion is premature.

Laterite, fluorite, and hydroton are all baked clay pellets that contain iron and other minerals.  While the list of minerals is impressive per vendors information, they are chemically bound and largely biologically unavailable.  For example, oxygen is plentiful as oxide,  but it is not breathable.


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## jaypeecee (16 Nov 2021)

tiger15 said:


> With mixture of potting soil and laterite, it is unknowable where the soluble iron came from. Potting soil tends to be acidic and reducing due to presence of organic and micros that favors solubility of iron, besides the soil itself contains iron. Unless the test is conducted on laterite alone as control, the conclusion is premature.


Hi @tiger15 

Fair comment. Perhaps I should have quoted more of what Diana Walstad says in her book. Here goes:

"I believe that the strong acidity and high humus content of the potting soil solubilized massive amounts of iron from the laterite causing iron toxicity to plants".

It's a long time since I used laterite and I don't have any available. But, it would be a very simple experiment to set up in order to investigate this further for anyone who wished to do so.

JPC


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## Sarpijk (17 Nov 2021)

After about two years my crypts seemed a bit off. I have seen that after some time the Hobby Laterite balls turn to dust so I figured they should be replaced. I got another box, it is totally anecdotal but in my experience they help with extra nutrients.


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## jaypeecee (26 Aug 2022)

dw1305 said:


> You can legitimately call "Flourite" "_iron rich_", but so is a <"red house brick"> and the iron is equally soluble in either case.



Hi @dw1305 

I fail to understand how iron in a red house brick could be considered water-soluble. If this was the case, wouldn't our houses be slowly eroded whenever we get a downpour of rain? I have never used Seachem Flourite but I did use laterite many years ago. And, as I mentioned immediately above, Diana Walstad demonstrated that laterite releases iron into the aquarium water.

Something doesn't tally or am I overlooking something? No doubt you will have already seen the following but I certainly found it well worth another read:



			Everything You Want to Know About Laterite!
		


JPC


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## Hufsa (26 Aug 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> I fail to understand how iron in a red house brick could be considered water-soluble


Im going to go out on a limb and say that he was suggesting that those selling these products are being "economical" with the truth when they say their substrate (or other product) is "rich in iron".
Yes the substrate/product is technically made up of this substance, but not in a form that is actually useful to plants or usable the way the seller wants the buyer to think it is.

An example that kind of fits: I am made up of a majority of water, but im still not a good thing to use to water a dry plant.

Seachem Flourite is technically "iron rich" but its still not a nutritious substrate for plants


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## dw1305 (26 Aug 2022)

Hi all,





jaypeecee said:


> Hi @dw1305
> 
> I fail to understand how iron in a red house brick could be considered water-soluble. If this was the case, wouldn't our houses be slowly eroded whenever we get a downpour of rain?


You are right @jaypeecee, neither iron rich substrate or brick are soluble.

If you want an analogy it is analogous to nitrogen (N). The atmosphere is nitrogen rich (70%) but that nitrogen is unavailable to nearly all organisms all the time it is  N2 gas.

If you can break the triple bond between nitrogen atoms new compounds form easily, but away from a limited range of circumstances it will remain as N2 gas for all of eternity.

Exactly the same for iron (Fe) oxides and hydroxides, insoluble in all but exceptional circumstances.

Cheers Darrel


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## _Maq_ (26 Aug 2022)

dw1305 said:


> away from a limited range of circumstances it will remain as N2 gas for all of eternity.
> 
> Exactly the same for iron (Fe) oxides and hydroxides, insoluble in all but exceptional circumstances.


True, but we have bacteria, fungi, and even plants' roots which may exude compounds which create those "exceptional circumstances".
I'm rather ambiguous about these 'iron rich' substrates. Their vendors rely on the fact that few hobbyists know anything about iron's behaviour. Most laterites contain iron in huge excess for plants' consumption. They are much more important as sorbents, both in good & bad ways.


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## jaypeecee (29 Aug 2022)

dw1305 said:


> If you want an analogy it is analogous to nitrogen (N). The atmosphere is nitrogen rich (70%) but that nitrogen is unavailable to nearly all organisms all the time it is N2 gas.


Hi @dw1305 

It's probably best that we limit the discussion to iron. Nitrogen can form the azide ion (N3-) and I seem to recall N3 being mentioned in school chemistry so my knowledge of it is now (almost) zilch.



dw1305 said:


> Exactly the same for iron (Fe) oxides and hydroxides, insoluble in all but exceptional circumstances.



These iron compounds may be soluble in water, solubility simply depending on the water pH.

JPC


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## dw1305 (29 Aug 2022)

Hi all, 


jaypeecee said:


> These iron compounds may be soluble in water, solubility simply depending on the water pH.


Not once they are <"ferric oxides and ferric hydroxides">, they will only release their iron as ions <"in exceptional circumstances">. 

The <"haematite that supplies most of the world's steel"> is Pre-Cambrian in age.  If billions of years of rainfall haven't dissolved it? You know <"that it isn't soluble"> in aerobic conditions.


jaypeecee said:


> It's probably best that we limit the discussion to iron.


I'll give <"you another example">, from a thread that we both contributed to, quartz (SiO2), it contains silicon (Si) but that silicon will remain as silicon dioxide  for all of eternity.

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee (29 Aug 2022)

Hi @dw1305 

Ah, the penny has finally dropped! I knew that my brain was beginning to atrophy. And, here is the proof. 

JPC


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## jaypeecee (29 Aug 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Not once they are <"ferric oxides and ferric hydroxides">, they will only release their iron as ions <"in exceptional circumstances">.


Hi @dw1305

What? More? Surely not!

I need to think this through again because it just dawned on me that such "exceptional circumstances" may include underwater where redox/ORP is very likely to be sub-zero mV*. An actual experiment with tests would possibly be helpful. I don't have a problem being proven that I've got my facts wrong. I just like to get to the facts.

* i.e. anoxic/anaerobic

JPC


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## dw1305 (30 Aug 2022)

Hi all,


jaypeecee said:


> it just dawned on me that such "exceptional circumstances" may include underwater where redox/ORP is very likely to be sub-zero mV*


That is it, strongly acidic, reducing conditions will make iron (Fe) available.  <"Redox Transformations of Iron at Extremely Low pH: Fundamental and Applied Aspects">.

There is a lot of academic research on iron and flooding of terrestrial crops, because under flooded conditions soil may become anoxic and iron may go from being unavailable to available. Although iron is an essential micronutrient  for plants it is also toxic at higher levels of availability.


> .....Iron toxicity is relatively rare, but the symptoms include bronzed and striped leaves. These effects are the result of excess Fe-hydroxyl radicals disrupting cellular functions. Due to the importance of maintaining iron concentrations within safe ranges in plant tissues, the whole process of iron uptake into roots (i.e., the movement from roots to shoots and storage and release within plant cells) is highly regulated......*


The biochemistry of iron in soils is complex, which is why a simple statement of total iron content doesn't tell us anything about availability.

You can think about it like potential and kinetic energy. In oxidising conditions "total iron" is a large boulder on a flat surface, it has potential energy, but not kinetic energy. You need a fairly large change of circumstances for that potential to become kinetic energy, if that makes sense?

This is a good review <"https://acsess.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/crso.20019">. "Iron Availability and Management Considerations: A 4R Approach"


> ......... Iron concentration can be present at 50,000 times the crop’s annual demand, but factors that affect availability limit utilization. The main source of iron in soils for use by plants comes from secondary oxides absorbed or precipitated onto soil mineral particles and iron–organic matter complexes.......Soil pH and water-filled pore space will significantly affect the form of iron present. In aerated soils, iron is readily oxidized to its ferric state and forms a group of highly insoluble ferric oxides and hydroxide minerals, such as goethite (FeOOH) and hematite (Fe2O3)



*Quotes are from <"Iron Availability and Management Considerations: A 4R Approach">

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee (30 Aug 2022)

Hi @dw1305 

I feel like Archimedes must have done when he jumped out of his bath shouting 'Eureka'!

Thanks for confirming my hunch.

JPC


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