# Thoughts on spraybar direction



## Costa (11 Nov 2018)

Hello all and I hope you are having a pleasant Sunday.

I am considering swapping the rigid pvc pipe between my sump and display tank for a flexible hose, which will give me more options (e.g. add inline diffusers etc) and that got me thinking about the flow in my tank.

Here's a top down view of my tank: 




The spraybar runs the length of the tank, flow is good, good plant movement end to end.

What I'm thinking of doing is this:



I think this will push more debris to be collected by the overflow, whilst maintaining the same good flow across the tank.

Thoughts and feedback very welcome.

Thanks!
Costa


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## Zeus. (11 Nov 2018)

As you have it already is what Clive had on his tank and I do think that would give the best turnover for the tank, but your overflow wont skim very well OFC

What your thinking of doing is how I do it on my room divider tank with an Ehiem skim where your overflow is, yes it will skim better but you wont get the same turnover for the same output as in your present spraybar IMO/IME.

What I am waiting for release ATM is the new Maxspect EF330 which two will fit nicely in the space of the new spray bar position and that will give you variable flow fully programable but not cheap, they havent advise me on the release price yet. The new ones are suppose to be quieter than the XF230 model as they have more blades. Maxspect claim that it will be release at Xmas or there about there testing it ATM


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## Oldguy (11 Nov 2018)

Costa said:


> top down view of my tank:


The layout in the top view would be better for flow distribution, especially for CO2, but the bottom layout would be better for the overflow working as a skimmer. Dammed if you do and dammed if you don't. Second spray bar with its own pump halfway along the tank, bottom set up , could be worth a thought.


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## Costa (11 Nov 2018)

Thank you @Zeus. and @Oldguy

My priorities are 1) overflow efficiency and 2) CO2 distribution.

Because I will get rid of the rigid PVC pipes, I will be able to install a reactor which will help improve CO2 uptake (or at least I hope so). So, with CO2 sorted, I think placing the spraybar along the side of the tank will help improve skimming.

What do you guys think?



Zeus. said:


> What your thinking of doing is how I do it on my room divider tank with an Ehiem skim where your overflow is, yes it will skim better but you wont get the same turnover for the same output as in your present spraybar IMO/IME.



Can you please post a pic? Thank you


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## Zeus. (11 Nov 2018)

Costa said:


> Because I will get rid of the rigid PVC pipes



Thats one of the reason I've been looking at the maxspect, get rid of spraybars and reduce plumbing 



Costa said:


> install a reactor which will help improve CO2 uptake



Then the reactors will also reduce your present pumps output will will also effect the tank turnover which will effect CO2 distribution.



Costa said:


> Can you please post a pic?



Attached - as you can see I do have a lower spray bar as well which I hate, can have it fitted high as well aims striaght down, but better turnover when its low.


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## Costa (11 Nov 2018)

Oh man I checked out the xf230, it is amazing but ridiculously expensive for freshwater tanks...

I swear by Jebao pumps, they are super quiet and have never failed me. Have you seen this?

https://www.fish-street.com/jebao-wifi-cross-flow-pump-cp-150

Have you used gyro products before? How efficient are they vs a tank-long spraybar? I am getting flow across the tank, judging by the plant movement, but overflow skimming is a problem, but I think that the gyro is an overkill, since *in theory* a strong pump with proper spraybar positioning can solve it.


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## Costa (11 Nov 2018)

Zeus. said:


> Attached - as you can see I do have a lower spray bar as well which I hate, can have it fitted high as well aims striaght down, but better turnover when its low.



Right. How powerful is your pump? I have a Jebao 10,000 which I operate at 50-60%


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## Zeus. (11 Nov 2018)

Costa said:


> Have you used gyro products before?



nope but Chris had one on *The Lazy Asian Biotope* of his and had a chat with him and he was well happy with his, after that its a leap of faith!



Costa said:


> How efficient are they vs a tank-long spraybar?



from what I have read they are good esp if I fit two XF230 which will just fit the width




Costa said:


> Right. How powerful is your pump? I have a Jebao 10,000 which I operate at 50-60%



well decent bit of kit you have which you can always ramp up a bit  I would run with that and the spraybar . I run a Fluval FX6 so 3000LPH !  which runs the reactors and an Ehiem 3000+ which runs an independant line which feeds the lower spray bar so fixed output and lots of pipes


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## alto (11 Nov 2018)

Hardscape & planting greatly impact which flow design works best on your tank

 - I’d been running the lower pattern (this is suggested in Eheim manual I believe) for ages on my 90cm x 40cm x 55cm (high) but always had a couple particular dead spots
- after reading an article re the 3 options (I’ll look for the link later), I ended up switching to inlet (back corner) & outlet (spraybar runs the width) on same short side, it worked “better” in particle flow tests and seemingly as scape grows in 

The upper design is grand if you don’t have a “wall” of stems across the back of the tank, or hardscape which creates a (relatively) uniform barrier (front to back) ... for either scenario, inlet/outlet at the same short side often works best - or if you’ve 2 filters play with diagonal placements. It’s also simpler to “boost” flow with an Eheim skim or other directional flow powerheads 


I’ve another tank which is easily set up with either the upper or lower(diagram) flow design, again due to hardscape & plant choices, the lower diagram flow is more efficient


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## Oldguy (11 Nov 2018)

Costa said:


> 1) overflow efficiency


If overflow skimming is your number one then spray bar across the shorter dimension as in lower diagram.  People run inline diffusers with good results. If I had my time again I would go for larger bore types than the ones I have. However I do run two. Perhaps an inline diffuser with a simple jet out put into your tank at the spray bar short end would improve mixing and give the tank a distinct right to left flow. You and Zeus have deeper pockets than me (or perhaps I have deep pockets and very short arms) and I cannot comment on brand names. I do however rate most Ehiem products, especially the Classic range. I have one of their pumps somewhere, even used it to pump water out of the garage inspection pit, must find it and put it to a dignified use.


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## Costa (12 Nov 2018)

Thank you @Oldguy and @alto

I don't know if @Zeus. has deep pockets but I certainly don't, I buy either second hand or new from China and I also diy a lot. My lights are £40 Creed floodlights off Amazon and the tank I got for €100.



Oldguy said:


> If I had my time again I would go for *larger bore types* than the ones I have.


Sorry I don't understand what that means "larger bore types". Do you mean larger holes in the spraybar?

I will make a diagram of the connections from the sump to the spraybar and will post here for your review.

Thanks again!
Costa


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## Costa (12 Nov 2018)

And this is what I have in mind:


Pump delivers 5000 L/hr (at 60% power, and considering the height of the DT)
Pump is connected to spraybar through the main 25/30mm flexible tube
Main tube branches off to 16/22 to be able to connect in-line atomizer


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## Edvet (12 Nov 2018)

I think there will be little flow through the flexible tube.


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## Oldguy (12 Nov 2018)

Costa said:


> larger bore types"


Larger internal bore inline diffusers or atomizers. I have seen in three sizes, mine are the smaller standard one. Like you I buy from China. Often same products with different labels on them. Have you thought about pond pumps, less money than aquarium equipment.

Why have you reduced flow to the atomizer, why not plumb it straight in the green tube for maximum flow and run without orange the by-pass.


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## foxfish (12 Nov 2018)

I think it would be a lot more simple and more effective  to place you Co2 directly in front of the sump pump.


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## ian_m (12 Nov 2018)

Costa said:


> Main tube branches off to 16/22 to be able to connect in-line atomizer


You need a valve in the bypass so you can control the flow going via the CO2 loop, like as in Zeus's setup.
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads...ps-ef2-with-venturi-fitted.43046/#post-461575


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## Costa (12 Nov 2018)

Oldguy said:


> Why have you reduced flow to the atomizer, why not plumb it straight in the green tube for maximum flow and run without orange the by-pass.





foxfish said:


> I think it would be a lot more simple and more effective to place you Co2 directly in front of the sump pump.


Because there are no in-line atomizers for 25/30mm tubes. I am concerned that if add a reducer along the main (green) pipe it will impact overall flow rate. Or maybe not?

*Edit: *
I only just found out that the Jebao pump comes with a 16/22 adapter, in addition to the 25/30 adapter in use now.

Is it a good idea to use the 16/22 or is it going to reduce the flow? 

Since the 16/22 tubing size is going to be available (either as main tube or branched off the main one), would you think a reactor (e.g. Sera's reactor 1000) might be better than an inline atomizer?


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## foxfish (12 Nov 2018)

Hi Costa, I don’t think you got what I was suggesting.
I mean you can place your Co2 line directory into the pump inlet.
You could use any type of atomiser if you want, just let the pump suck in the gas.


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## Costa (12 Nov 2018)

foxfish said:


> Hi Costa, I don’t think you got what I was suggesting.
> I mean you can place your Co2 line directory into the pump inlet.
> You could use any type of atomiser if you want, just let the pump suck in the gas.



Well I can connect a 16/22 tube in the pump's inlet and then mount the atomizer there,




...but the water will be sucked into the pump through the tube which will lie in the 3rd compartment of the sump. Is that acceptable?

I currently have the co2 line next to the pump motor, through a plastic grid on the inlet.




I've also read on these forums that the recommendation is to put any inline atomizers/reactors at the output of the pump/filter because it can otherwise damage the rotor or create a lot of air (the latter not being a problem with sump pumps I suppose).


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## foxfish (12 Nov 2018)

No connections necessary, just a cut down bottle.


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## Zeus. (12 Nov 2018)

alto said:


> Hardscape & planting greatly impact which flow design works best on your tank



Yes it was design of my hardscape that influenced me where to put the  spraybars etc. Was after good flow at the substrate level in all the deepest areas for the carpet OFC

Good job 'alto' was awake when posting


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## Costa (13 Nov 2018)

foxfish said:


> No connections necessary, just a cut down bottle.
> 
> 
> View attachment 119445



This is exactly what I have today, except for the diffuser at the end of the co2 tube, but that's no problem to add. Is this the most efficient way to diffuse co2 in the aquarium?


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## foxfish (13 Nov 2018)

I doubt it is the most efficient but it is a simple and effective way.


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## Costa (18 Nov 2018)

Quick update, I found the time to set up the new spraybar which isn't much of a spraybar really but anyway. 




 



 

Water flow across the tank, fish seem to like it because they are more active now at the uper half of the tank (in the past they would mostly shoal at the bottom half), looks like they enjoy schooling and swimming against the current.

Skimming function of the overflow seems to have improved, water is very clear with significantly less debris compared to the past. CO2 dissolution remains a problem, I have the CO2 tube in the pump inlet, I get a mist if bubbles coming out of the spraybar but I don't think it's working. I must build a reactor asap. 

Thank you for all the advice and for reading.


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## Zeus. (18 Nov 2018)

I tried mine with twin outlets like you have in the lower pic and the tank turnover was rubbish. Connected the twin outlets with pipe with holes in it and tank turnover/flow was *much* better


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## Costa (18 Nov 2018)

Zeus. said:


> tank turnover was rubbish



How do you measure that? You don't have an overflow do you?


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## Andrew Butler (18 Nov 2018)

Costa said:


> How do you measure that? You don't have an overflow do you?


I think that Karl means circulation or distribution if these words make better sense to you.
I would agree with him that your spraybar would give you the best chance of getting even distribution of flow, I'm unsure why you changed it to be honest.


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## Zeus. (18 Nov 2018)

Costa said:


> How do you measure that? You don't have an overflow do you?



Just visually with the movement of plants and the buuble flow from the twinstar when it came on


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## ceg4048 (20 Nov 2018)

Costa said:


> Is this the most efficient way to diffuse co2 in the aquarium?





foxfish said:


> I doubt it is the most efficient but it is a simple and effective way.


Actually there are a couple of ways that are more efficient, but they are not as simple.

The problem of diffusion is resolved by reducing the size of the CO2 bubbles beyond that of the typical ceramic disk.

The first and most elaborate method is to use a Mazzei injector, but this is very complicated and requires plumbing modifications as well as constant fiddling.
The second and less complicated is to inject the gas into a small, low powered skimmer pump that has a needle wheel impeller instead of the typical centrifugal impeller. The output of this skimmer pump can be placed directly in front of the input of your main pump.

The skimmer pump with needle wheel impeller is about as effective as the Mazzei injector and is a LOT less complicated.

Also, when using spraybars mounted at the back of the tank, it is not necessary or advisable to have the bar running the entire length as shown in the top diagram of the original post. The tube length introduces higher frictional forces as well as pressure drops resulting in uneven output from the holes.

You can easily shorten the tube, leaving  6 inches or more from either end. This will produce higher energy from the holes.
One has to experiment with hole sizes based on the pump capacity and so forth.

Cheers,


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## Costa (21 Nov 2018)

Andrew Butler said:


> I would agree with him that your spraybar would give you the best chance of getting even distribution of flow, I'm unsure why you changed it to be honest.



I changed it because the overflow wouldn't skim properly, the water had a lot of debris (visible when lights on).

Thank you @ceg4048 - I don't have a needle wheel impeler on my Jebao 10,000 unfortunately but I think there is a needle wheel version out, I will check if I can just buy the impeller separately. 

From your experience how does the CO2 distribution through a needle wheel impeller compare to something like this:

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/diy-reactor-pictures-assembly-and-testing.4626/

http://nilocg.com/na-advanced


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## foxfish (21 Nov 2018)

Needle wheel pumps do work, I have used them but they have reduced flow compared to a standard impella pumps and can be very noisy. 
From my own experience, useing a “fine mist diffuser” in front of the pump inside a bottle is a cheaper, easier and better method.
Reactors like the one you have linked do work, but only if they are sized correctly and have the right flow, then they will completely discover the C02.
The longer the tube the more efficient at dissolving the gas but they can zap power and reduce flow, if the flow is not adjustable, there is a strong possibility of bubbles exiting the reactor or building up inside the tube.

I built my own style reactor (link in my signature) and it works faultlessly but other folk have not had the same results.
Reactors can be differcult to get tuned in just right but if you can get one on song, I think it is much nicer than a tank full of mist.
There are a lot of people waiting for a decent and effective reactor to appear on the market.
There are a few available but more often than not they have some design issues! 
Flow loss is typical and can be quite drastic! Noise is another, burping is common, build up of gas is very common, cost is offen high too.

However if you are good at DIY and don’t mind spending the money, it is quite possible to build your own reactor.

I think the reason my own reactor works so well is because I have full control over the flow and an adjustable power pump to match.


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## Andrew Butler (21 Nov 2018)

Costa said:


> I changed it because the overflow wouldn't skim properly


I see! When I had my marine tank I used some Maxspect Gyres for flow and my weir skimmed the surface just fine; could of course be different for your setup and not a cheap experiment unless you find some second hand ones and there's plenty kicking around. I would avoid the Jebao/Jecod ones as they are just noisy as hell.
I assume you had this same problem with your original spraybar?

as @ceg4048 suggests you could use a pinwheel pump which I think I suggested on your other thread but you have the 'posh' Jebao DCP pump and I' pretty sure they don't make a pinwheel version of this or a pinwheel replacement impellor.
They seem to be for the smaller pumps and I think are mainly aimed at people who want to use them for protein skimmers.


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## Costa (21 Nov 2018)

Andrew Butler said:


> I assume you had this same problem with your original spraybar?



Right, the problem with the original spraybar was that it would push the water towards the front glass and then the water would move down, hit the substrate and move up again, to meet the next water wave pushed by the spraybar and follow the same route. This way the debris in the water wasn't collecting at the overflow. The way it works now is that the pump outlets push the water towards the side of the display tank where the overflow is located. I will take a picture and share as soon as possible, I can't describe it very clearly, I'm not a native English speaker as I'm sure you've guessed by now....

The Jebao 10,000L/hr pump I got from fish street for $131, which I don't think it's expensive by any means. Maxspect's Gyro is crazy expensive on the other hand, I wish I could afford it.


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## Andrew Butler (21 Nov 2018)

Costa said:


> The Jebao 10,000L/hr pump I got from fish street for $131, which I don't think it's expensive by any means. Maxspect's Gyro is crazy expensive on the other hand, I wish I could afford it.


The DCP pumps are Jecods' Professional (what the P in DCP stands for) pump and you are right they are not expensive but you can get a version that is not so good or cheaper; in the UK a company called D-D the aquarium solution who normally supply high end equipment have taken Jecod/Jebao on after seeing how good they are for the money.

If you look around you will find a used Gyre for reasonable money, you would only need one and not the controller as you just want a continual gyre created so you could just use the adjustment that is built into them but make sure it is a model with that as I think the very first ones didn't have any kind of control built in. It *might* just solve all of your problems with flow.


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## ceg4048 (21 Nov 2018)

Costa said:


> I changed it because the overflow wouldn't skim properly, the water had a lot of debris (visible when lights on).
> 
> Thank you @ceg4048 - I don't have a needle wheel impeler on my Jebao 10,000 unfortunately but I think there is a needle wheel version out, I will check if I can just buy the impeller separately.
> 
> ...


Hi, yes, I realize that and I was not suggesting that you fit the main pump with the pinwheel. 
What I am suggesting is that you add a second protein skimmer pump inside the sump to do the job.
The skimmer does not have to be plumbed. Control of water levels are not relevant. You merely point its output in the direction of the inlet of your main pump. Very simple.

As foxfish mentions, his way is certainly much cheaper, but skimmer pumps with pinwheel are wide available and are relatively inexpensive.

Cheers,


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## Costa (22 Nov 2018)

Thank you @Andrew Butler and @ceg4048 

Do you have a needle pump to recommend and advise on how to plug in my co2 outlet (if different to what @foxfish showed)?


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## Andrew Butler (23 Nov 2018)

Price wise I doubt you will beat the Jebao/Jecod - I'm unsure what the noise of their pinwheel pumps are like but as you know the return pumps are pretty quiet.
I had a pin/needlewheel on my skimmer and it was almost silent; that was a Nyos skimmer but unsure what pumps they used.

As for setup I think @ceg4048 and @foxfish are your men.


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## foxfish (23 Nov 2018)

Well I have used Eheim NW pumps and I have modified several other makes, I use a Grundfoss central heating pump fitted with an aqua turn conversion myself.
Needle wheel pumps will not be able to pump or circulate the same amount of water as the same pump with a standard impeller.
 Buy thier nature the pump will cavitate ie the impeller will spin faster that the water can flow, this causes the air or C02 to break up as it is wized around. 
From my own experience, this process can be quite noisy and it can cause the pump to vibrate. However that might not be a problem if the pump is under water.

Having tried placing an atomiser in front of the pump inlet and useing a needle wheel pump I can tell you both work.

The main benefit of the NW pump is the ease of adding the C02 due to not requiring any high pressure devisees in the C02 system. You just stick the C02 line in the pump.
The atomiser in front of the pump is my preferred method but it does require a high pressure atomiser, a Bazooka  works brilliantly.
Of course both methods do produce a fine mist in the display.

Some folk have suggested just putting a atomiser in the sump compartment but honestly that does not work very well. You need to get all the micro bubbles directly into the pump not floating around in the sump.

The bottle trick works with a NW or a standard pump, it is 100% effective it only needs to be a few inches long and cost nothing.


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## zozo (23 Nov 2018)

Never heard of it before and had a great laugh googling pinwheel pumps... 

But seriously and interstingly, i see they come in 3 different designs.





And






I guess for shredding CO² number one is most effective? Also providing the strongest turnover?

And, probably designed for the taller tanks..



Wearing them all day, still have surface skum..


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## Andrew Butler (23 Nov 2018)

zozo said:


> But seriously and interstingly, i see they come in 3 different designs.


I think the second or middle option would be more what people mean by a needle or pinwheel impeller.


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## ceg4048 (24 Nov 2018)

Costa said:


> Thank you @Andrew Butler and @ceg4048
> 
> Do you have a needle pump to recommend and advise on how to plug in my co2 outlet (if different to what @foxfish showed)?


I agree with foxfish. 
As far as available pumps I'm a bit out of touch with the UK market.
Have a look at this website https://www.aquacave.com/water-pumps-powerheads/protein-skimmer-pumps.html which is an American site but it's just to show the vendors that make high quality pumps. Sicce and Reef Octopus are Italian brands so they should be available in Europe.

Definitely, whichever brand you choose, get the smallest. You don't want a strong pump because that is not the most effective.
The idea is to keep the CO2 bubles within the pinwheel for as long as possible. The more frequently the pins make contact with the bubbles, the finer the bubbles are chopped up.
If you use a strong pump with a high turnover rating the bubbles does not spend as much time in the chamber before being spat out, so they won't be as fine.
Also when looking at price, make sure that the pump assembly is sold with a "Volute" (or you may need to buy it separately). 
The Volute is the cylinder that has a spud where you can attach the CO2 line.
The Volute attaches to the skimmer pump inlet and typically looks something like this:



 

Also, to address the question regarding noise, really there is little to no noise associated with the skimmer pump. The pump design is exactly the same as typical return pumps. It just has a different impeller. It's especially silent because of the low speed.
You can place both the solenoid and the skimmer on timers so that they shut off at about the same time.

Although I must agree with the practicality and effectiveness of foxfish's DIY design, the Skimmer is so much more cool and Star Trekkie...

Cheers,


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## Costa (25 Nov 2018)

Very interesting thank you @ceg4048 @foxfish

Just so that IIget it right, are skimmer pumps as efficient as this reactor?

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/diy-reactor-pictures-assembly-and-testing.4626/

If so I will Goa ahead and buy a needle wheel pump because my diy skills aren't the best. It not, I will probably try my hand at making me a reactor or I might just buy one from nilocg.

Thanks so much!


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## Barbara Turner (25 Nov 2018)

I bought a jebao 4000 pump and it's been great nice and quiet and never put a foot wrong,  I gave up injecting the co2 before the pump as it became very noisy and had very little flow. I imagine the whole  impellar was cavitating.  I'm guessing you might do a far better with a smaller pump, with a different impeller.


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## foxfish (25 Nov 2018)

Costa said:


> Very interesting thank you @ceg4048 @foxfish
> 
> Just so that IIget it right, are skimmer pumps as efficient as this reactor?
> 
> ...


Reactors and needle wheel pumps are completely different in thier function.
Both do a job in a completely different way.
Both methods have potential to work as well as each other.
Obvious you don’t like the idea of an atomiser in front of the pump, I can only tell you what I have experienced so good luck with you choice.


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## Costa (26 Nov 2018)

foxfish said:


> Reactors and needle wheel pumps are completely different in thier function.
> Both do a job in a completely different way.
> Both methods have potential to work as well as each other.
> Obvious you don’t like the idea of an atomiser in front of the pump, I can only tell you what I have experienced so good luck with you choice.



Yeah thanks ff, I will go buy a skimmer pump with a Volute, challenge is the only one I can find in my local market is this (looking at the smallest version as @ceg4048 recommended - 1200lph)

http://www.blau-aquaristic.com/reefmotion-dc.html

It doesn't come with a Volute by the looks of it, but I guess I can simply attach some 1/2" tube with a hole to insert the co2 line through?

Do I have to connect a tube at the out of the skimmer pump to drive water at the in of my normal water pump?

Thank you again
Costa

Edit
There's also this sold on amazon, but isn't 180lph too little?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01MXX1G89/ref=cm_sw_r_tw_awdb_t1_x_HL4-Bb21E0R0A


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## foxfish (26 Nov 2018)

Probably best to let Ceg guide you from here on as I don’t quite get his idea of how you are going to transfer the micro bubbles to the main display tank?


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## ceg4048 (1 Dec 2018)

Costa said:


> Yeah thanks ff, I will go buy a skimmer pump with a Volute, challenge is the only one I can find in my local market is this (looking at the smallest version as @ceg4048 recommended - 1200lph)
> 
> http://www.blau-aquaristic.com/reefmotion-dc.html
> 
> It doesn't come with a Volute by the looks of it, but I guess I can simply attach some 1/2" tube with a hole to insert the co2 line through?


Hi costa,
             I looked at that DC pump and of course I love DC pumps for their control-ability but I did not see the prices. Surely you realize that you also have to get the controller? 
It might be a bit over the top for our purpose. Of course, price aside, it's perfect because you would be able to dial the speed down and that would extend the pumps life.
It's strange to me that they sell a skimmer pump without a volute, but I don't know enough about marine tans to understand why. perhaps when installed in a skimmer assembly they assume that there is already a spud for the gas. I suppose you could modify it to inject the gas at the inlet. My skimmer pump has a volute so I've not faced this problem but it would not be difficult. Even the smallest pump, the 1200 LPH is way over the top. You would only need to run it at 30%-40%. Remember that these pumps are not being attached to any plumbing so they are pumping against almost zero head pressure. So this makes them very efficient.


Costa said:


> Do I have to connect a tube at the out of the skimmer pump to drive water at the in of my normal water pump?


No, again, you do not connect anything. You simply point the outlet of the skimmer towards the inlet of your main pump. That's all. 
I think it's so simple that people actually get confused. They expect something complicated.
I've inserted a quick picture of my case here. This is the return section of the sump.
This is the _only _thing about a sump that is actually simple. Everything else is a pain in the blahblahblahblah. 
Bear with me as I go on a rant here:
I blame foxfish and Edvert for my troubles because they kept going on and on about how sumps were soooo superior.
Nothing could be further from the truth. I never had to worry about water levels or the risk of flooding if the power went out when I used a closed loop system.
I won't ruin your thread with my troubles. Suffice to say that both aforementioned characters are off my Christmas List.

Anyway, yes, it's very simple. In my case I'm using two pumps and the idea here is to point the skimmer outlet in between the two inlets.
This is an especially useful technique when using multiple return pumps. This is about 200 US gallons of water including the sump volume.
It doesn't really matter as the CO2 will saturate the entire volume of water and the pumps will scoop it up.
Depending on injection rateI can bring the ph down by 1 unit in less than 45 minutes so be careful.
I also cover the sump chambers with simple glass tops



Cheers,


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## foxfish (1 Dec 2018)

Well if you used cegs method, you would in effect, be forming a reactor in the sump compartment.
Depending on how well the top of the compartment was sealed, this may or may not produce a pressure differential and a build up of gas below the top seal.
I suspect if you sealed the top with cling film, it would form an entertaining dome as the pressure builds?
Great, basic and simple idea though......


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## Zeus. (1 Dec 2018)

ceg4048 said:


> Depending on injection rateI can bring the ph down by 1 unit in less than 45 minutes so be careful.



Impressive and very similar to the speed of my pH drop 



foxfish said:


> Depending on how well the top of the compartment was sealed,



If the seal on the sump is water proof and air tight its no longer a sump its a canister in my book, as a canister is a sump with a sealed lid


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## foxfish (1 Dec 2018)

Zeus. said:


> If the seal on the sump is water proof and air tight its no longer a sump its a canister in my book, as a canister is a sump with a sealed lid


Old Chinese proverb...


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## ceg4048 (3 Dec 2018)

Zeus. said:


> Impressive and very similar to the speed of my pH drop
> 
> 
> 
> If the seal on the sump is water proof and air tight its no longer a sump its a canister in my book, as a canister is a sump with a sealed lid



Well I don't really worry too much about any of these definitions. In my case the sump compartments each are covered by a simple glass lid, which I just lift off to perform maintenance. No air tight sealing is required and the glass lids do a great job of reducing evaporation as well as reducing gas loss, so it all works out quite nicely. 

Cheers,


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## Costa (5 Dec 2018)

I can't for the life of me find a decent wheel pump at a reasonable price. The one I managed to find online (Europe) is this

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Marine-Color-Venturi-Protein-Skimmer/dp/B01MXX1G89

At a mere 180L/hr, is it going to be enough?


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## zozo (5 Dec 2018)

Here is a simmular Red Devil located in China @400l/h free int. shipping. Should be around GPB 45
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/needle-whee...h=item5d5b86856f:g:ZsEAAOSwDNdVuH4J:rk:7:pf:0

180l/h comes for GPB 35
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/needle-whee...m=161777941582&_trksid=p2047675.c100752.m1982


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## ian_m (5 Dec 2018)

You can make your own needle wheel impellor.
https://barrreport.com/threads/needle-wheel-diy-modifications.5683/
https://barrreport.com/threads/most-efficient-diy-needle-wheel.6981/#post-54697

Quick Google returns loads of ways reefers modify standard pump. 3D printer clearly helps in some cases.


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## Django (17 Dec 2018)

Just read through this post as I am setting up a spraybar on the back wall of my juwel 180.

It will be run by a sicce 1,5 pump (1350l/h)
Hooked up to a reactor
https://www.us-aquaristikshop.com/c...nreaktor-ar-us50-16mm-ohne-blasenzaehler.html

This pump and reactor combo completely dissolved all co2 bubbles, very happy to get rid of the bubbles in the tank.

On top of that I got a eheim 2280 for filtration, not sure what to do with the water outlet on that...any one tried the rfg flow nozzles? Considering one of those at the filter end blowing across the aquarium/

https://reefbuilders.com/2017/10/04/add-variable-flow-to-your-tank-with-the-rfg-nozzle/


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## Edvet (18 Dec 2018)

In a CO2 tank i would try to keep flow clean, dont think the random effect will be beneficial.


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## Costa (25 Dec 2018)

Hi all I hope tmyou are having a great Christmas day.
Coming back to the flow issue in my tank, and although overall skimming has improved with moving the spraybar to the right hand side of the tank, the bottom third of the tank remains problematic flow wise, which I believe is an inherent limitation of overflow sump rigs.

To tackle this what I am planning on doing is to use a second pump that I have hanging around (DCS-3000) and use the inlet to drive two pump water into the pump via two 16/22 pipes that will be reaching all the way down close to the substrate. I want to mimic the way external filters operate. I will post a schematic asap.

Thanks for reading


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## Costa (26 Dec 2018)

Well after some more consideration I think this is a stupid idea after all.

Adding the schematic below



 

Yellow: overflow
Red: Second pump to pump water _from_ 2 inlets (green) in the display tank _into_ the sump below
Blue lines: flexible tubing

Assuming that the flexible tube is going to be connected on the inlet of the pump (Jebao DSC-3000) is the flow from the display tank going to stop when that pump also stops?


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## Daveslaney (26 Dec 2018)

No this is the reasons sumps use surface inlets, with enough redundancy space in the sump, so if the pump stop for whatever reason it will only empty the water from the tank to the bottom of the inlet close to the water surface and the sump shouldn't overflow?
With the bottom inlets like in your pic if the pump stops it will empty the tank and flood your room.


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## Andrew Butler (26 Dec 2018)

Costa said:


> the bottom third of the tank remains problematic flow wise, which I believe is an inherent limitation of overflow sump rigs.


The fact that you are using a sump shouldn't have any limitations on how you can deliver flow to the whole tank. Many people struggle with flow using external filters and it's all about how you deliver the outlet of your sump or filter.
Some people use a simple lily pipe, some use a spraybar and many people try everything and still need some extra powerheads to reach the whole tank.
It could be to do with your layout and obstacles which stops flow reaching everywhere.
I would say it's even easier using a sump as if you are down on power then you can quite cheaply just add a bigger or an extra filter assuming your overflow can keep up.

I'm unsure how your overflow box is configured or attached to your tank but if you really think this is the source of your problem then why not just cut it out, plug it up and use an external filter? - I don't think that's the solution though!

What exactly are you trying to resolve now; Just the flow?


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## Edvet (26 Dec 2018)

How about getting two mumps in the sump just going to a spraybar, one for each half. Both can be fed by the overflow.
Or: one spraybar or the (left) side helped with one of thew new Maxspect Gyre''s just above it.


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## Daveslaney (26 Dec 2018)

That would be my thoughts too. Fire all your outlets, powerhead etc towards the front glass and push the flow to wards the lower water levels that way.
Or all on one side of the tank push the flow along the top to wards the other side of the tank to create a Gyre style flow.


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## Costa (26 Dec 2018)

Thank you all for the replies, 

The main pump is a 10k lph and I operate it a 60%, so there is room to grow. I don't think a second pump is needed. 

Although there is flow across the tank (can see the grass moving), the overflow isn't helping with clearing the debris at the bottom third of the tank - unlike regular external filters the inlets of which are designed to reach all the way to the bottom of the tank.

I have now emptied the tank for a rescape and the substrate gave out a foul smell, which proves that something is very wrong.

That's why I thought about setting up two tubes that will reach all the way down to a few inches from the substrate surface in the display tank and pump water into the sump, driven by a smaller pump - but unfortunately this can lead to flooding the sump in case of a power cut.


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## Daveslaney (26 Dec 2018)

Where is your overflow to the sump?


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## Costa (26 Dec 2018)

If you zoom in you will be able to see it on the top left hand side (yellow circle) - pardon the glare


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## Daveslaney (26 Dec 2018)

I would put your outflows on the same side as your overflow more towards the front of the tank pointing straight down the tank along the top towards the opposite side glass.
This way the flow should travel along the top of the tank hit the opposite side and travel down the other side glass and back in the opposite direction along the bottom of the tank. Your 10k pump should have enough flow to do this I would think.
The inflow should also pull any detritus in as the flow travels up from the bottom of the tank as your inflow is pulling in 10k also this should aid the flow pattern?


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## Andrew Butler (27 Dec 2018)

Costa said:


> the overflow isn't helping with clearing the debris at the bottom third of the tank - unlike regular external filters the inlets of which are designed to reach all the way to the bottom of the tank.


So the problem you are trying to resolve isn't flow reaching areas of the tank but the intake of the filtration isn't clearing the debris?
If you do a weekly water change then using a siphon vacuum will take care of this surely? - if debris is getting caught up in the plants then the 'turkey baster method' should solve that.

There are things you can do if you want to add that intake to the bottom although I don't think this will solve your problem.
As you will see in my very crude image you can add an intake like the ones people use with external filters BUT you would need to drill a hole just below the water line that's big enough to break the siphon in a power outage indicated by the black arrow.
Black = tank
Blue = water line
Black arrow = drill hole

Any questions just ask.


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## Costa (27 Dec 2018)

Yes that is exactly what I needed, *thank you* @Andrew Butler and all.

I do weekly water changes but vacuuming is a challenge as this is a 180gal tank with a lot of surface area. (Curious whether @Edvet vacuums his 400gal). There is a lot of debris accumulation on the substrate surface which isn't removed by the overflow (as opposed to a normal external filters that comes with an inlet which reaches deep down in the tank).

As per my sorry attempt of a schematic, I want to I want to have a small pump suck water from the bottom 3rd of the tank into the sump. How big do the hole in the 3/4" tube need to be? Because the hole will be underwater I assume it will be sucking in some water too, but am I right to assume that most water will be sucked by the bottom end of the tube?

Sorry for my English everyone and thank you for reading and for all the advice.
Costa


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## Andrew Butler (27 Dec 2018)

Costa said:


> I do weekly water changes but vacuuming is a challenge as this is a 180gal tank with a lot of surface area.


180 gallons; do you mean 180 litres? - just get yourself a purpose made vacuum and use it; it's the only way I think you are going to get the debris.



Costa said:


> As per my sorry attempt of a schematic, I want to I want to have a small pump suck water from the bottom 3rd of the tank into the sump. How big do the hole in the 3/4" tube need to be? Because the hole will be underwater I assume it will be sucking in some water too, but am I right to assume that most water will be sucked by the bottom end of the tube?


You don't need a pump to suck the water; you simply want it to work on a siphon which will just require priming and that will probably be as simple as sucking the end to get it started.
I would consider putting a flow control valve inline so you can control and balance the flow a bit easier.
As for the size of the hole I can't answer that for as if it's too small it might not break the siphon so easy but I'm sure if you have a google or look on youtube you will find some suggestions but I've given you the basic science of breaking the siphon.
That hole would of course be sucking some water in but you should find the majority of the water will enter at the bottom; it would be a bit trial and error I think.

I'm sure other people may have experience here and be able to help you more.


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## Edvet (27 Dec 2018)

Costa said:


> Curious whether @Edvet vacuums his 400gal


I used to do it once a week or so, when i worked at home. When i worked elsewere id did it once every few months. I don't mind some mulm especially now it's low tech (again) and usually there isn't a lot (no woodscrapers anymore). Also i am sure it all is hiding beneath my mosslayer now, which covers about 40% of the tank. I did suffer BBA when i tried high tech, hard to get good flow in these sizes, but that went away with going low tech and is only as small dots on the wood and old leaves. I am thinking of doing a large freshup maintenance this "free"weekend, removing all old leaves and removing large parts of the moss.


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## Costa (22 Feb 2019)

Do you guys think there will be any issues if I swap out the 25mm flexible tubing that my DCP-10000 currently uses for a 16/22  there may be any issues (e.g. with pressure, pump damage, water flow)? Max pump output is 10,000 L/hr, I run it at 7,000 L/hr.


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