# Water softeners and aquariums..?



## Iain Sutherland (21 Apr 2013)

Evening all, i have been frustrated for a long time with having really hard water.  Aside from having scaled up taps, kettle etc it really reduces the options of suitable fish when using it in large aquariums (not to mention water lines from evaporation!).  In a small aquarium im happy to cut with RO but when talking about 150ltrs a week RO gets pricey and its very tedious having to 'prep' for a WC.  The obvious option is to add an undersink water softener that doesnt produce waste like RO and keeps the cost down.

So i have been reading around a bit and as always there are 101 different opinions on water softeners, ranging from 'its no problem at all'  to 'the salt that replaces the calcium will cause grainy pimples and death to fish that cant expel it quick enough'.

As such i thought id ask the question to people who's opinions have seen me right up til now.
So is salt softened water an option? or have i just got to suck up the fact ive got hard water and stop crying about it?

Id also really like to know a little more about the physiology of fish and what effects soft and hard water have on them, from the little ive read it's to do with how the fish manage to excrete the minerals via slime coat?  

thanks


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## viktorlantos (21 Apr 2013)

If you go on the RO way a larger unit would do the work easily. I have a 2 membrane unit at home with a booster pump which fills up my tank real time at water changes. So i have a pipe from the RO to the tank and takes 2 hours to complete but it's doable. At least no need a barell etc.

There are even better RO units. 3 membrane ones with booster or 2 large membrane ones with 2 boosters. These units produce much less waste water because of the multi membranes.

Of course it is an investment. Not the operational cost is high but a good unit. Once you have that it's pretty simple and efficient.


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## Iain Sutherland (21 Apr 2013)

Hi Viktor, I have this RO unit
4 Stage 50 Gallon Per Day Reverse Osmosis System with DI - Osmotics Water Filtration
that i use for shrimp and when i had a marine tank but waste is terrible and having to plan water changes is hard as i work shifts.  
I had never considered running it straight to the tank which could be a possibility... does the booster pump add to the efficiency and speed significantly? As making 150ltrs at the moment would take my unit about 6 hours or would i just need a bigger unit?


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## viktorlantos (21 Apr 2013)

Booster pumps will not do more than your membrane could do.
The RO unit you have is a basic entry level one. Only 1 membrane 50Gal.

Maybe the unit is too old and that's why you have too much waste. Prefilters need to be replaced in every 6 months or so. membrane is 10K liter or 2-3 years max.

You can use a larger membrane in this housing like a 100 gal one, but not sure if that will work without booster pump.

If you would go after a new unit i would recommend something like this: 2/300 GPD Reverse Osmosis Systems : 450 Gallons Per Day Reverse Osmosis System
Then you can line in the RO directly as the filling up would happen quickly with not much waste.


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## Ian Holdich (22 Apr 2013)

Agree with the pump, was talking to ed and tony and they both use pumps. I bought one and it's loads better with minimal wastage. 

As for water softners, they don't work due to the high sodium levels they use (from what I understand)


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## DrRob (22 Apr 2013)

Sodium levels in softened water depend on the hardness of the water you're starting with. Sounds like you're going to be at the top end like me if you try this. Remember that drinking this stuff can also be bad for you so you'll need a bypass tap for drinking water if you go for a whole house system, although I'm very glad we did.

Units are a pig but this is helpful.
Sodium in drinking water / Water softening / Issues in focus / Home - Salt Institute


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## ian_m (22 Apr 2013)

Ian Holdich said:


> As for water softners, they don't work due to the high sodium levels they use (from what I understand)


Here is the definitive aquarium link on ion exchange water softeners.
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/water-softening
I have a whole house ion exchange water softener (TwinTec Water Softeners), fantastic, scale free taps, clear glass in shower, soap goes miles, no scum on bath, need only 1/3 amount of washing powder for washing machine, no scale marks left on drying dishes (no salt needed for dishwasher softener). It has reduced my hardness from 22° Clark to about 1-2°. I have a blending bypass valve that allows a tiny amount of hard water past the softener, just to take the edge of 100% soft water, makes it easier to wash soap & shampoo off.

I would highly recommend the Twintec, not cheap, over £1000 fitted. Everybody I know who has a water softener has either a Twintec or a Kinetico 
	 Kinetico: Water Softeners - Kinetico 
I bought cheap first time (£600) and regretted it as it only lasted 6 years odd before it died. My Dads Crown softener (www.ezsoftener.com) is over 20years old and still going. The previous softener I had was a twin tank metered (only recharges when depleted as opposed to timed which recharges every day regardless) one with a digital display, but all of these, it is now known, suffer from jamming valves after a couple of years and in my case destroyed the electronics. My jamming was partly due to water pressure in 2003 being 4.5bar when fitted going to 8bar it is today. Most softeners are rated at 5bar max.

The Twintec, uses the much easier to handle and put in 4Kg blocks of salt and despite the block salt being about twice as expensive than 25Kg bags (25kg tablet salt is about £8 and 8Kg of block salt £4.50, 32p/Kg vs 56p/Kg), but is uses less salt than my previous softener and thus ends up being cheaper.

As for fish use, before I knew better I used the softened water in my tank, generally mixed hot (soft) water with cold (hard) water in a bucket for water changes. Sometime used 100% soft water as just filled buckets up with warm water from bath taps as very quick to fill. Fish didn't seem to mind, in fact still got the clown loaches in my current high tech EI dosed (hard water only) tank.


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## Iain Sutherland (22 Apr 2013)

Ian Holdich said:


> Agree with the pump, was talking to ed and tony and they both use pumps. I bought one and it's loads better with minimal wastage.
> 
> As for water softners, they don't work due to the high sodium levels they use (from what I understand)


 

Cheers Ian, any suggestions on a pump?  Think its time to consider a more practical solution for RO water storage and then pump into the tank when needed... maybe a water butt somewhere which then means i need to heat the water.  Nothing's every easy 

Shame about the softener though, i could of picked one up through work for peanuts as we run on all the glass washers and coffee machines etc...heyho.

Hey rob, thanks for the link.  I had planned just to run one for the aquarium if it was feasible but think its a non starter.  Saying that i'd have thought there must be lots of people that have water softeners and have never considered whether it is ok to use in an aquarium.  Would all their fish be meeting an  early demise?  Could it be a contributing factor to all the 'help, my fish keep dying' letters to PFK and on here for that matter.

Thanks for the input guys,  i wonder when i can stop thinking of new ways to spend money on aquarium related products


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## Ravenswing (22 Apr 2013)

Iain, this might be written by you somewhere (new here so I must have missed a lot!), but how hard your water actually is?

Fish handle salts by their osmoregulation. Usually soft water species adapt well in harder water, hard water species sometimes not-so-well because they "need" more salts wich can be "minimun factor" in soft water. and wich they suffer from. Main problem usually is that eggs wont hatch. Heres couple of link wich I have found usefull:
Understanding GH & TDS & Hardness - General Aquarium Plants Discussions - Aquatic Plant Central
 The Importance of Total Dissolved Solids in the Freshwater Aquarium - plecoplanet Forums
Osmoregulation in Fish
There was brilliant article on this at Oscarforum, but it seems the site is now... under construction or something. Pitty!

So far I believe from what Iv red, that fish handle mineralsalts, wich includes also (bi)carbonates (KH), Ca, Mg (GH) etc, practically same way by gills and kidneys, so they can be gathered under same topic: osmoregulation, electrical conductivity or/and totally dissolved solids. So if you are intereseted in that, you can do some searching with those words. Wrong EC hurt gills and kidneys by cortisone and catecholamine production wich leads damages of cells and cell reproduction briefly said.

Have you had problems with your fish or plants? I keep asking since we have tapwater with really high EC (around 600uS). I use no RO. And wont use either. We have had losses with most sensitive fish species, those who are originally from really sof waters. All other fish have done pretty well as well some shrimps too. My Keyhole cichlids and Cocatoo apistos had fry at GH 22 (wich was accident caused by cat litter soil...).


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## Ian Holdich (22 Apr 2013)

This is the one I bought, but got it off eBay for £50. The link on eBay is gone now. It will pay for itself in a few months though. 

RO System Booster Pump - Surrey Pet Supplies

I'm also in Iain's predicament, I have really hard water, tds 450ish, water in Lincoln runs off of limestone, really really hard, ph 8.2. I have tried many a fish that do well in soft water and they haven't done well. There are arguments that they will get used to hard water, but ime they don't.


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## mi5haha (22 Apr 2013)

If the water is very hard, you need to use another type water softening resin revitalized by HCL, not by salt. So the resin will not replace much sodium into the water.However, you need some know how to handle this. At least you need to have a PH probe.

Or you may use Potassium Chloride to treat the resin. It will be better than using sodium chloride.


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## Iain Sutherland (22 Apr 2013)

Ravenswing, thanks for the info and links, now i have some info i know what im searching for i can try and delve a little deeper.  My water has a TDS 400, GH around 20, ph 7.5.
I havent had any issues with fish that im aware of but then i try to avoid any fish that are known to be soft water only.  While most of the barb family are softer they seem to do well for me, yet id like to have the option with different scapes to not be restricted by water type.	Ive always thought best practice is to match fish to your water rather than trying to control the water chemistry, yet in this hobby changing fish regularly is path of the course so  i would like to try something new... raspora sawbwa and the like but then im pretty sure BigTom keeps them very happy in hard water.

Thanks Ian im thinking this may be my best option, however going back to storing 100ltrs a week until water change is a PITA and was one of the reasons i stopping cutting my tap water to start with.

Going back to what Viktor said, assuming for a minute that i go with RO one way or another, feeding the RO straight to the tank (which would be a bit of a mission in its self) fills me with nerves of forgetting it only to see a very wet lounge.... again!
Maybe i need to evict one of my house mates and have a fish room


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## Ian Holdich (22 Apr 2013)

Why not just hook up the ro unit outside and keep it in a 100ltr water butt?


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## dw1305 (22 Apr 2013)

Hi all,


mi5haha said:


> you may use Potassium Chloride to treat the resin. It will be better than using sodium chloride.


Agreed, you can use any monovalent ion, and K+ would be a lot better than Na+, but if you have hard water the cost is prohibitive. The cheapest KCl I could find (I have a water softener) was £38 for 25Kg.

cheers Darrel


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## Iain Sutherland (22 Apr 2013)

Ian Holdich said:


> Why not just hook up the ro unit outside and keep it in a 100ltr water butt?


this is my current thinking, i need to explore this a little more when im home as to where it could work for me.  I guess i would then need to add a powerhead and heater a few hours prior to water change also..?
Do you remineralise your RO ian?



dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> Agreed, you can use any monovalent ion, and K+ would be a lot better than Na+, but if you have hard water the cost is prohibitive. The cheapest KCl I could find (I have a water softener) was £38 for 25Kg.
> cheers Darrel


 
Sounds like moving house may be cheaper


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## Ian Holdich (22 Apr 2013)

I do still buy a couple of barrels as a back up and I am on a meter. But, when I use my unit, I just hook it up to my outside tap, fill a couple of barrels (25ltr) in a few hours now. Then I'm set for the week. I don't re mineralise it and don't heat it before I change it. I will bring a barrel in overnight before water change to get it to room temp. This time if the year I don't bother though. I just use tropica ferts and a some of the aquavitro envy. I'm dosing the tropica ferts alternate days not and this seems to keep the mineral content good. The shrimps are thriving and the plants aren't showing any difficiancies.


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## dw1305 (22 Apr 2013)

Hi all,


Iain Sutherland said:


> Why not just hook up the ro unit outside and keep it in a 100ltr water butt? this is my current thinking, i need to explore this a little more when im home as to where it could work for me. I guess i would then need to add a powerhead and heater a few hours prior to water change also..?


Word of warning, temperature also effects the efficiency of the RO unit, basically the warmer the better: <Temperature Correction>.


Iain Sutherland said:


> Sounds like moving house may be cheaper


I use rain-water for the tanks, we are lucky that our tap supply is very good quality (from a deep limestone aquifer) and tastes lovely, but it is hard, about 18dKH.

cheers Darrel


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## Antoni (22 Apr 2013)

Sorry for highjacking the topic, Ian! 

Darrel, do you do some kind of pre-treatment, purification of the rain water, before use in the tank?


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## Alastair (22 Apr 2013)

I know a method using peat and a friend who lives down berkshire who also uses this method and gets great results in reducing his water hardnesd and ph.

Basically he uses a water but, with a bucket that is placed over the top of it with a small hole drilled in the base of it. Some filter floss is placed in the bottom along with some irish peat moss then the bucket is filled and left to slowly drip into the water butt below. 
Peat acts as an ion exchange resin, remove minerals from the water and replacing them with organic humic acids

Worth a try but youd have to experiment with the amount of peat used.


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## dw1305 (22 Apr 2013)

Hi all,


Antoni said:


> Darrel, do you do some kind of pre-treatment, purification of the rain water, before use in the tank?


I do, I use a really simple technique and it also feeds the fish.

The _Daphnia_ bioassay: <Distilled / Deionised Water | Page 2 | UK Aquatic Plant Society> & <http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/static/documents/Business/daphnia208_1669241.pdf>

cheers Darrel


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## dw1305 (22 Apr 2013)

Hi all,


Alastair said:


> Peat acts as an ion exchange resin, remove minerals from the water and replacing them with organic humic acids Worth a try but youd have to experiment with the amount of peat used.


It does work exactly how Alastair suggests, but you need a lot of high quality Sphagnum peat. <Peat Biofilter>.

cheers Darrel


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## Iain Sutherland (22 Apr 2013)

Alastair said:


> I know a method using peat and a friend who lives down berkshire who also uses this method and gets great results in reducing his water hardnesd and ph.


 
Not to sure that would work for me Al, think it would be a lot of work for the volume i would need and time is something im prertty short of at the mo.  Cant be long before you are running again mate..?

So back to water butts for a moment, would i right in thinking i remember something about getting the right type as far as the material its made from?  Think a butt and pump, ooh er, for the RO unit is the most likely option for now however heating would then be the issue as can only have the water butt outside...hmm. 
Maybe the logistics of this are too much and will just have to stick to fish that will be ok in hard water for now


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## BigTom (22 Apr 2013)

You could always take the easy option and pick hard water fish (its what I ended up doing). There are quite a few out there apart from the obvious rift valley cichlids, which are easy enough to source with a bit of patience and mail order or a good LFS.

Lake Inle and associated areas of Myanmar have _Danio erythromicron_ and _margaritatus_, _Devario auropurpurea, Parambassis lala, Yunnanilus brevis_ and_ sp. 'Rosy'_ and oddballs like _Indostomus paradoxus_ and _Parasphaerichthys lineatus_ and even_ Dario_. Lots of rainbowfish (including smaller ones like _Iriatherina_ and _Pseudomugil_) hail from hard waters, as do many gobies and gudgeons (_Tateurndina ocellicauda_, _Hypseleotris compressa_, _Brachygobious spp_.), halfbeaks (_Dermogenys pusilla_), _Aphanius_ _spp_. and some other killifish... West African stuff (Kribs, lampeyes are probably tolerant of a certain degree of hardness). Paradise fish (_Macropodus opercularis)_ are ultra-adaptable, and there are even one or brackish _Betta_ species coming to light that should do fine in hard water.

And that's just off the top of my head


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## viktorlantos (22 Apr 2013)

At my home tank i fill back the tank from the RO. Around 130L/week. Usually my tank temperature is around 23 but now as the weather getting warmer the average water temp increased to 25.5 already. Anyway after filling in the colder RO i still get to something like 18 in the tank which quickly heating up by the filters and the lamp heat plus room temperature. I haven't seen issue here. Not at winter or summer.

In the shop we fill a 500L barell usually. The place we store the barrell is well ventillated not heated and the water gets too cold sometimes. Still no prob with the tanks. However if i see that the temp is dropping too much let's say under 17-18 then i add in a Jager heater to the tank immediatelly. We only pre-heat the  water for the shrimp tanks as Taiwans etc are not that tolerant for quick changes on temp.

Using Salty Shrimp GH booster if the tank need it. We measure all of them with a TDS pen. Try to be above 120 in average at planted tanks.


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## Alastair (25 Apr 2013)

Iain Sutherland said:


> Not to sure that would work for me Al, think it would be a lot of work for the volume i would need and time is something im prertty short of at the mo.  Cant be long before you are running again mate..?
> 
> So back to water butts for a moment, would i right in thinking i remember something about getting the right type as far as the material its made from?  Think a butt and pump, ooh er, for the RO unit is the most likely option for now however heating would then be the issue as can only have the water butt outside...hmm.
> Maybe the logistics of this are too much and will just have to stick to fish that will be ok in hard water for now



Not a lot of work really mate. My friend does his 700 litre tank each week with his.  
Here is a link to the site if your interested.  Would save you a packet


Peat Filtering your Aquarium Water

And yep hopefully 13th may my tank will be here


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## Iain Sutherland (25 Apr 2013)

Alastair said:


> Not a lot of work really mate. My friend does his 700 litre tank each week with his.
> 
> Here is a link to the site if your interested. Would save you a packet
> 
> ...


 
well, the packet has already been spent now, waterbutt in the garden, upgrade kit for RO unit to 3 membrane and RO booster pump on the way.  The peat solutions looks to be a good one however i dont think it would suit me, this way the water will always be waiting ready for change.

Great to hear your tank is arriving soon mate, i just bought PFK and seen your article which just spikes my interest as to what you will do with the new monster.  I hope to get my NA planted within a couple of weeks so will have more plants for you if you want them.... ill pm you soon buddy.


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## ian_m (25 Apr 2013)

My mate who kept marines, years ago, had an RO unit under the units in his kitchen, fed to a barrel outside. It had a float valve in the water butt and incoming isolating valve for when there is no output (or else water continues to flow out via the waste). Also had an aquarium heater in the butt to stop it freezing, on a timer so only came on, on the day of water change.

Did get moved indoors eventually as I think the cold & ice caused issues, especially if adding very cold water to your tanks. Was a long time ago when circulation pumps were modified central heating pumps....

Dug out the comments he made in 1990's (sad still got emails from then). Water butt was originally outside, but suffered from freezing float valves and water pipes, so moved into his garage. Then worked fine, always had 100litres of RO water on tap.


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## Iain Sutherland (25 Apr 2013)

thanks tom, i have no doubt that there are heaps of harder water fish that i have no idea about as im still trying to figure out high tech tanks. Hopefully in a few more years ill have a wider knowledge of the hobby as a whole and really be able to make informed fauna decisions. Your 'top of the head' list does throw in some interesting possibilities though.  Everytime you post latin names of fish i always spend 10 minutes googling them all and most ive never seen or heard of  please continue to do so

Viktor, again thanks for the info on your set up, i think i will try something similar and likely will only be a handful of months where heat will be an issue, certainly should be ok for the time being now spring is here.
If i remineralise with Salty Shrimp GH booster will this leave a deficit of anything in the water that i then need to consider, I will be using Vimi ferts.

Hey Ian_m, i hope cold water shouldnt be too much of an issue as i have nowhere to put it indoors, if need be i will wrap with insulation and heat before using it during the colder months.

While all of this does feel like high cost and effort i know i will be happy once i have the freedom to move my water params depending on the fauna i keep.  Assuming all goes to plan all the fish for this tank like a carbonate hardness around 7 with ec 80-120 so should be very achievable.

Did i imagine it that some water butts can leach nasties into the water... maybe i read it on a marine site so would it likely be relevant in a tropical without sensitive inverts?

Thanks everyone for your input it has helped no end.  you guys rock!


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## ian_m (25 Apr 2013)

Iain Sutherland said:


> Hey Ian_m, i hope cold water shouldnt be too much of an issue as i have nowhere to put it indoors, if need be i will wrap with insulation and heat before using it during the colder months.


It wasn't the butt freezing being an issue is was the RO water pipes to butt and water out from the butt freezing (along with ball valve not opening as frozen) that caused the issue. The heater in the butt stopped the bulk of the water freezing, but that was no good if you couldn't get the water in and out.

Also butt was on a high stand, outside, so that water would just free low out of the butt into house/shed when required.

Eventually a change of job and no longer working at home meant he had to get rid of the lot. But in the 90's was pioneering type stuff.


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## HemantKumar (20 Apr 2016)

mi5haha said:


> If the water is very hard, you need to use another type water softening resin revitalized by HCL, not by salt. So the resin will not replace much sodium into the water.However, you need some know how to handle this. At least you need to have a PH probe.
> 
> Or you may use Potassium Chloride to treat the resin. It will be better than using sodium chloride.


Hi,
was reading the water softner process and came across this ........I too have resin based water softner so if Iuse KCL will this work 
if yes then what about ca & mg to add in water 
also adding potassium chloride will increase potassium in water which is good for plants but what about chloride which is aded will it affect the plant in the aquariums 
need more elobration on this please


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## dw1305 (20 Apr 2016)

Hi all,





HemantKumar said:


> so if Iuse KCL will this work if yes then what about ca & mg to add in water also adding potassium chloride will increase potassium in water which is good for plants but what about chloride which is aded will it affect the plant in the aquariums


 It will work, but it is quite an expensive option (KCl costs a lot more than "water softener" NaCl) if you want to treat a large volume of water? 

You can add some calcium (Ca) back by cutting your softened water with some tap water, 10% tap should be fine. In the UK most tap water has very little magnesium (Mg), so this is best added as magnesium sulphate heptahydrate (MgSO4.7H2O) "Epsom Salts" (10% Mg). It is worth noting that high levels of K+ ions can interfere with the plant uptake of Ca++ and Mg++ ions. 

Like sodium (Na+) the chloride ion (Cl-) is only needed by plants in small amounts, which is why the sea is salty with NaCl. 

The softened water will have a higher conductivity than the original hard tap water, but this shouldn't matter.

cheers Darrel


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## ian_m (20 Apr 2016)

You can use KCl as water softener regeneration salt. What is emitted by the water softener recharge waste is calcium chloride & magnesium chloride & potassium chloride with potassium carbonate being present in the house water.

In some US states, because of build up of sodium levels in water drainage courses, if you have a water softener you must use KCl. Since moving to KCl, poisoning due to excess Na has stopped. The calcium chloride, magnesium chloride, potassium chloride and potassium carbonate in the house waste water quickly disappearing once in the environment.

However, I once had this idea, lets use KCl in my water softener, then I can use it in my fish tank.

However my plans were quickly defeated.....25Kg sodium chloride £10..... 25Kg or potassium chloride £35....Potassium chloride for water softeners is much cheaper in the US.


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## dw1305 (20 Apr 2016)

Hi all,





ian_m said:


> You can use KCl as water softener regeneration salt. What is emitted by the water softener recharge waste is calcium chloride & magnesium chloride & potassium chloride with potassium carbonate being present in the house water.


Thanks "ian_m", I should have said that most water softeners use "Sodium cycle Strong Acid Cation Exchange", so the anion is not replaced (it is repelled by a fixed sulphonate (SO3-) ion inside the resin bead), and you get the, soluble, K+ and HCO3- ions in the water.  (basically dGH is lowered, but not dKH).

There is a good summary here <"Basic Ion Exchange"> and <"Lenntech: Ion exchange for ....">. 

I didn't know that KCl was cheaper in the USA. I've seen it mentioned as a NaCl alternative on several US forums, and I wondered about the cost.

cheers Darrel


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## ian_m (20 Apr 2016)

You unfortunately need more KCl than NaCl by weight as K is heavier than Na so your 25kg of KCl doesn't last as long as 25kg NaCl. Yet more cost...


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## HemantKumar (21 Apr 2016)

Hi All ,
thanks for prompt reply ....I have specially put a small water softener for the fish tank with a bypass which holds around 7kg of resin and generates around 1000 liters of soft water before it is required to regenerate http://www.shopclues.com/jumbo-water-softner-water-softener-for-whole-house-bathing-washing.html

My tank is 500 lits so 50 % water change is around 200 liters to 250 liters of water .....which gives me 4 weeks of water change on 1 regeneration of the softener I require 700grams of ( Nacl ) to regenrate it so KCL would be around say 1000grams to regenrate

1000 grams KCL = 100 Rupees India currency its around £ 1 so thats quite fair enough even if i regenate it with £2 for in a month

just one more question is it safe for aquarium plants ?
also I calculated with rotalabutterfly calculator and it suggest me to add 300grams of mgso47h20 to my tank mixed with 1000 ml of rowater  dosing 100 ml 3 times a week
300grams is that calculation correct


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## naz (26 Nov 2019)

Hi all

Just found this thread on ro units,really good information about high end ro units did not no that you could get ro unit that projuice ro water so fast.

Iv got a basic ro unit at the moment 50 gpd with no ro pump but last week my home has been put on a water meter so it's costing me to much money to projuice the ro water so I'm thinking of buying a new ro unit  this one.
https://www.wiltec.de/naturewater-reverse-osmosis-ro-1500l-day-nw-ro400-e2.html

I want to do away with filling container and to pump ro water straight to my tank.

My question is 
Do you think this is a good choice of ro unit to pump water straight to tank ?
Will this ro unit projuice ro water with tds under 20 ppm ?
How many hours do you think it would take to refill 100 lt to 150 lt or ro water to my 200lt tank ?
What would the rejection rate of the ro water be in this unit 3 to 1 waste water 2 to 1 waste water ?

Just trying to work out how much £££ would cost to feel up the tank ....

Lee


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## Andrew Butler (26 Nov 2019)

naz said:


> Iv got a basic ro unit at the moment 50 gpd with no ro pump but last week my home has been put on a water meter so it's costing me to much money to projuice the ro water so I'm thinking of buying a new ro unit this one.


Hi @naz I'm just wondering without reading through everything fully why you think this particular unit will produce water that much cheaper? Just because it is capable of producing more that does not effect the waste produced which is the key info you're looking for.


naz said:


> Will this ro unit projuice ro water with tds under 20 ppm


All RO/DI units should be able to produce water with 0 TDS, if it starts climbing then it's time to change filter cartridges.


naz said:


> How many hours do you think it would take to refill 100 lt to 150 lt or ro water to my 200lt tank ?


If you choose the unit you link to then it's a 1500 L/day unit HOWEVER that 1500 L/day first of all is based on the water coming in being at 25°C (which it's not going to be anything like), the pressure of that water coming in (despite the pump) and then also the TDS of that incoming water, this is before you factor in cartridges run slower as time goes on. In short there is no simple answer.


naz said:


> What would the rejection rate of the ro water be in this unit 3 to 1 waste water 2 to 1 waste water ?


If you look at the technical documentation link then it shows the clean water content relative to inlet Water as 15-20% quite the amount you do get can vary with factors already mentioned but it's still going to cost you quite a lot of waste water. Even at 20% it will cost you 5L to produce 1L
There are far more efficient filters out there but all waste quite a bit to produce not a lot. I had a Vertex Puratek Deluxe which claims 1:1 clean:waste so if that is to be believed then a huge difference to the claims the filter you're looking at makes. It's very unlikely you would ever get 1:1, especially as the feed temperature is going to be rather cold which does make a difference.


naz said:


> How many hours do you think it would take to refill 100 lt to 150 lt or ro water to my 200lt tank ?


How longs a piece of string kind of answer, maybe more a case of how long to refill your wallet?


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## naz (26 Nov 2019)

Hi Andrew

Thanks for the reply

I thought that because the ro unit was producing water quicker that it would do it with less waste water as well.
That's good that it will have a tds of 0 ish was not shore because of the big membrane it uses 400 gpd

I was hoping to fill 100lt of tank ro water up in about 2 hours that's what I was hoping for.


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## Siege (26 Nov 2019)

I have a similar system. It is slow especially in the winter when the water is colder, there is lots of waste also. I’d have never been able to fill a tank directly from it.

Instead of buying a system have a look at spotless water.

https://www.spotlesswater.co.uk/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIo5bTidiI5gIVkkPTCh1nEQL0EAAYASAAEgKy7_D_BwE

@Geoffrey Rea used them recently and they are very good.


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## naz (26 Nov 2019)

I want to find an ro system that produces ro water quickly that has an 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 waste water rate ,5 to 1 seems a bit excessive and to buy this ro system  a cheaply as possible.

I was looking at buying just a 400gpd pump on its own for about £70 
https://www.fastlight.co.uk/acatalog/400-GPD-Self-Regulating-Booster-Pumps.html
 and running 2 x 150 gpd membranes that are about £20 easy  on my ro system that I have. 

The main thing I want is to pump the ro water straight to the tank I'm feed up with water containers 


just looked at the Vertex Puratek Deluxe pretty pricey £300 but it does not seem to be as fast at making ro water only 200 gpd 

Just open to idears of setting up a fast ro system and how to do it,or a complete system to buy, or a diy system for cheap

Thanks lee


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## sparkyweasel (26 Nov 2019)

Why do you need RO water?


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## naz (26 Nov 2019)

Just had better results with ro water over the years ...


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## sparkyweasel (26 Nov 2019)

Fair enough.


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## Geoffrey Rea (26 Nov 2019)

Near you @naz , Spotless Water:

https://www.spotlesswater.co.uk/news/story/orpington-filling-station

Unit pumps at 100l per minute so you’ll be done in no time flat if you park up and fill up 25l Jerry Cans.

Downside you’re still hauling water, upside you’re not having to maintain any equipment and can just store enough for the month or whatnot.

Prefill a barrel to the desired TDS with RO and tap next to the tank then do a water change with a pump. Then get on with the rest of your week.

Whatever way you cut it RO is gonna be a pain but this has been the least painful option for British winter for me.


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## Andrew Butler (27 Nov 2019)

naz said:


> last week my home has been put on a water meter so it's costing me to much money to projuice the ro water so I'm thinking of buying a new ro unit this one.





naz said:


> I want to do away with filling container and to pump ro water straight to my tank.





naz said:


> I want to find an ro system that produces ro water quickly that has an 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 waste water rate ,5 to 1 seems a bit excessive and to buy this ro system a cheaply as possible





naz said:


> The main thing I want is to pump the ro water straight to the tank I'm feed up with water containers





naz said:


> Just open to idears of setting up a fast ro system and how to do it,or a complete system to buy, or a diy system for cheap


Hi Lee, maybe write them down and put them in an order of priority as I just don't think you can have all of them, the water meter has already dictated that.

I mentioned the vertex as I've used it and knew the advertised 1:1 Product:waste along with other features. There is a system in the UK that advertises 1:1 and 450 GPD which you can configure to include a pump along with an auto flush bypass which I think is a good addition as it can make things last longer, this system also advertises as slightly quicker than unit you linked to. Just remember you're never going to get the 1:1 without the ideal water parameters and if your linked unit is anything to base things on then 25°C mains pressure water is not happening! Also remember bigger systems cost more to change cartridges.

Another way to look at things if the water cost with a new unit's not such a problem (and you can get permission) is to set up a storage container somewhere in the house where you can produce the RO/DI throughout the week then either using gravity or a pump use a hose to fill your aquarium. The container can have a float valve, overflow to stop any disasters, be put somewhere warm - there's all sorts of things you can do if this is a route you want to look at? I had my system like this, hidden away in a cupboard and it worked just fine.



Siege said:


> Instead of buying a system have a look at spotless water


+1 on this. I have an account but no stations near me so just stick with my very hard tap water. I've done the technical RO storage system with my marine and it's just too much hassle and space to set up again.

Do you really need RO/DI? - Have you thought about changing your aquarium so that it just doesn't require the use of RO/DI and do away with the problem?
With the simple use of a TMV (Thermostatic mixing valve) I just connect a hose to the TMV, put the hose in the aquarium and turn it on which then gives me the water at the set temperature from my hot water system - simple, easy, no waste.


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## dw1305 (27 Nov 2019)

Hi all, 





naz said:


> Iv got a basic ro unit at the moment 50 gpd with no ro pump but last week my home has been put on a water meter so it's costing me to much money to projuice the ro water so I'm thinking of buying a new ro unit this one.


Could you use rain-water? I've used it <"since the 1970's"> without any problems. 

cheers Darrel


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## ian_m (27 Nov 2019)

Andrew Butler said:


> I mentioned the vertex as I've used it and knew the advertised 1:1 Product:waste along with other features. There is a system in the UK that advertises 1:1 and 450 GPD which you can configure to include a pump along with an auto flush bypass which I think is a good addition as it can make things last longer, this system also advertises as slightly quicker than unit you linked to. Just remember you're never going to get the 1:1 without the ideal water parameters and if your linked unit is anything to base things on then 25°C mains pressure water is not happening! Also remember bigger systems cost more to change cartridges.


These systems from RO-Man are the way forward, especially if you are on a water meter. They use 3 RO membrane units, so they feed the waste water from the first RO membrane through another RO membrane and the waste water from that through a further membrane. For most RO membranes you will only typically get optimal efficiency (4:1 maybe per membrane) with 8bar (120psi) pressure and water at 25'C. Thus a pump is a must really for most of UK water pressure (might not be true for you as my water pressure is 8 bar, rising to 10 during the night !!).

Washing of the 3 membrane units is now really essential as the you are effectively feeding "dirty" water to the last two membranes and if not careful can clog/degrade quite quickly.

Remember also that you will now have to replace 3 membranes instead of 1 used on smaller RO units.

Remember also if you do not keep you dechlor pre-filters optimal you will now wreck 3 RO membranes.

Remember to always either test or dechlorinate or let stand your RO water as RO units are not 100% guaranteed to remove chlorine/chloramine, especially if your prefilter is non optimal. This is the one case a hobby grade test kit may be used to test for chlorine/ammonia, before using the RO water as you are only testing for 1 ion in the water and will not get interference from other ions.


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## Andrew Butler (27 Nov 2019)

ian_m said:


> my water pressure is 8 bar, rising to 10 during the night !!


Blooming heck, we don't get much over 1 bar on a good day!


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## ian_m (27 Nov 2019)

Andrew Butler said:


> Blooming heck, we don't get much over 1 bar on a good day!


In my house dishwasher, water softener, washing machine are all behind a 5 bar pressure reducer as most appliances are rated only to 5 bar (some rated to 8 bar) and I have had issues with leaking valves. 

You will need an RO unit with booster pump if your water is only one bar, I bet you will be lucky the efficiency of the RO is better than 10:1 with 1 bar water.


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## Andrew Butler (27 Nov 2019)

It's not me @ian_m who wants to run one but I did before; using a booster pump and auto flush. Quite the wasteroduct water I actually got I'm unsure but I went for the most efficient unit I could find easily.


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