# Algae affecting plants



## kellyboy47 (5 Jul 2020)

Hi, 

I am hoping somebody can help me with this problem  {Please see photos) I have struggled to grow plants for quite a long time now
and have never got them to look like you see in 'show' tanks either on here or in retailers shops. I am not quite sure what type of algae
this is or what I am doing wrong. My tank is a Juwel Vision 180 and I use EI Dry Salts Micro /Macro on alternating days with a 40l water
change each week. I also use Easycarbo 7ml per day. My lighting system is a Juwel Helialux LED 920 (I can supply lighting times if required)

The  Alternanthera Cardinalis and the  Lagenandra Meeboldii Red have been in my tank for about 2 weeks and looked fine when first planted
but the former is already showing signs of algae growth.

I must admit I am getting a bit disheartened trying to grown 'live' plants and may have to accept defeat.

Any help would be greatly appreciated


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## REDSTEVEO (9 Jul 2020)

Hi, we have all been there at sometime. My tank has been established for a long time but up to now, without plants. Only recently have I reintroduced plants and am having similar problems. So even though I have had success in the past I am re-learning all over again.

Trial and error and experimenting  with lighting, nutrients, and CO2 is the way forward. If the algae is out growing your plants, then you have to do something or change something, increase or decrease something to see what results you get.

So, try increasing the CO2 and fertiliser, increase the light intensity if possible, but decrease the lighting period to around 5 hours. 

You need to be changing 50% of your tank volume water on the seventh day.

Also instead of adding the E.I. Dry powders, mix up a liquid solution instead, and add the required amount of Macro and Micro solutions each day.

Finally, get hold of some Flourish Excel.  Mix a weak solution of this in a small spray bottle, when your plants are exposed during a water change, spray the leaves with the weak mixture. Be careful not to make too strong a mixture or you will nuke the plants as well as the algae.


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## kellyboy47 (10 Jul 2020)

REDSTEVEO said:


> Hi, we have all been there at sometime. My tank has been established for a long time but up to now, without plants. Only recently have I reintroduced plants and am having similar problems. So even though I have had success in the past I am re-learning all over again.
> 
> Trial and error and experimenting  with lighting, nutrients, and CO2 is the way forward. If the algae is out growing your plants, then you have to do something or change something, increase or decrease something to see what results you get.
> 
> ...



Hi,

Thanks for your reply. I was beginning to think I had broken the forum rules !

With regards to CO2 I am not all that comfortable with the injected CO2 route...tried it before so thats why I use Easycarbo at the stated level

Changing 50% of the water weekly is a non-starter really especially as the missus complains I use too much water anyway

I use EI dry ferts from aquariumplantfood.co.uk and have been using this method for at least 8 years Micro (Chelated trace) Macro (Potassium  Nitrate / Phosphate / Magnesium Sulphate)
alternate days. What product would you suggest foer an alternative liquid solution

I originally used Excel so I might have a little bit left....trouble is 40l water change does leave the plants immersed still

I am not sure whether you are familiar with the Juwel Helialux system but here goes:

4 x Lighting periods

Dawn        9 am - 12 pm    Luminosity       5% White      60% Blue
Sunrise     2 pm - 7 pm      Luminosity       100% White      100% Blue
Sunset     8.30 pm - 9.30 pm      Luminosity       10% White      60% Blue
Dusk    9.30 pm -22.30  pm      Luminosity       0% White      5% Blue

Two filters in tank JBL Crystalprofi E1501   1400LPH  (External)   Juwel 1000  1000LPH (internal)

Hope this helps


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## Fiske (10 Jul 2020)

That's an awfully long lightning period for not a lot of plants and no CO2. If large waterchanges are out of the question, I'd look at reducing light (amount and period), upping plantmass and consider a much more low tech approach.

Right now you are adding more ferts than your plants can use, being CO2 limited, and lots of light. Algae are waiting for an opportunity like this. 
EI kind of depends on having to 'reset' the amount of ferts in the watercolumn by changing out a large-ish part of your water, lest you get a build up of nutrients. Combine with lots of lights, no CO2 and few plants = algae heaven.


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## sparkyweasel (10 Jul 2020)

I think Fiske is right, that's a long photoperiod. Also, the dawn and sunset may be giving four hours when the light is enough for algae to grow but too dim for your plants to benefit.
I would;
Reduce those times to 30mins, or 15 if your controller can do that.
Remove as much algae as you can during the biggest water change you can manage.
Add some fast-growing stem plants and/or floating plants to outcompete the algae.
Dose less than EI levels if you can't do the big water changes that go with EI dosing.


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen (10 Jul 2020)

Does your wife go out at particular times of the day/week?

You might be able to do larger water changes if you time them to, er, particular times of the day/week. Just sayin’...


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## REDSTEVEO (10 Jul 2020)

kellyboy47 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thanks for your reply. I was beginning to think I had broken the forum rules !
> 
> ...



You Sir, I am afraid to say are up s#¥t Street without a paddle if you'll excuse my French. A 14.5 hour lighting period, full E.I. Dosing, no injected CO2, and only 40 litre water change from a 180 litre tank once a week. 

You have answered your own question with the information you have provided, you just couldn't see it. Fiske is 100% right, you have created a 'Perfect Storm' an algae heaven.

So here is the deal, you need to either:-
 a) Man Up and do the 50% water changes as per the recommended guidelines for E.I. Dosing; or
b) Stop dosing the Fertilisers, or at least reduce by two thirds, and reduce your lighting period to 5 hours, period, no ifs or buts, or,
c) Forget completely about any thoughts of keeping a planted tank.
Simple as that.

Sorry if that sounds a bit harsh, but I dont believe in bullshitting, you need to hear the truth. And the truth is, you are putting a lot of time and effort in, but all in the wrong direction.


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## Geoffrey Rea (10 Jul 2020)

REDSTEVEO said:


> You Sir, I am afraid to say are up s#¥t Street without a paddle if you'll excuse my French. A 14.5 hour lighting period, full E.I. Dosing, no injected CO2, and only 40 litre water change from a 180 litre tank once a week.
> 
> You have answered your own question with the information you have provided, you just couldn't see it. Fiske is 100% right, you have created a 'Perfect Storm' an algae heaven.
> 
> ...



If you want to head towards more satisfactory results then the above is very difficult to argue with.


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## kellyboy47 (11 Jul 2020)

Thanks everyone for your advice and suggestions although REDSTEVEO you were a bit near the mark by telling me to 'man up' if you know what I mean  but I'll let you off just this once and by the way the lighting period is 10 hours not 14.5 but I know still way too much.

I will make some adjustments as from today by decreasing the lighting period to 5 hours and decreasing the amount of ferts I put in. Will also did a bigger water change.

One point I would like to make is that my fish tank is all about the 'fish' hence the name and having a good looking planted tank is a bonus. I 've noticed that a lot of these incredible aquascapes that I see contain small species like Cardinal Tetras whereas mine for instance contain Blue Acaras, Kribs, Rainbows, Corydoras, Bolivian Rams and the like in a real community tank setup and it probably doesnt help the flora by the amount of waste these fish produce but there you go the fish come first


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## kellyboy47 (11 Jul 2020)

sparkyweasel said:


> I think Fiske is right, that's a long photoperiod. Also, the dawn and sunset may be giving four hours when the light is enough for algae to grow but too dim for your plants to benefit.
> I would;
> Reduce those times to 30mins, or 15 if your controller can do that.
> Remove as much algae as you can during the biggest water change you can manage.
> ...



Thanks for your advice. I'm sure my controller is catered for that but in your opinion how should I distribute the 5 hour lighting period over the 4 settings


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## dw1305 (11 Jul 2020)

Hi all, 





kellyboy47 said:


> but in your opinion how should I distribute the 5 hour lighting period over the 4 settings





kellyboy47 said:


> Sunrise 2 pm - 7 pm Luminosity 100% White 100% Blue


 If you go to a shorter light period you probably need just the full intensity in one block. 





kellyboy47 said:


> and having a good looking planted tank is a bonus


I'd try some floating plants, any (or all) of a <"sub-surface floater and a floating floater">. 

cheers Darrel


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## REDSTEVEO (11 Jul 2020)

kellyboy47 said:


> Thanks for your advice. I'm sure my controller is catered for that but in your opinion how should I distribute the 5 hour lighting period over the 4 settings


On and then off. Five hours, you pick the period.
Tell your concerned other half that you will be using the 50% E.I. Enriched water to water her plants in the house and garden.

Job done.


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## hypnogogia (11 Jul 2020)

You could do this, for example
Dawn 9 am - 12 pm Luminosity 0%White  0% Blue
Sunrise 2 pm - 3pm Luminosity 100% White 100% Blue
Sunset 8.00pm - 9.00pm Luminosity 10% White 10% Blue
Dusk 9.30 pm -22.30 pm Luminosity 0% White 0% Blue

Effectively, lights on at 2pm with a slow build over an hour to 100%
Kept at 100% from 3-8.  Then from 8-9 decrease to 10%. Stay at 10% until 9.30, then off at 10.30.  Play around and experimemt.  Key is to have a decent photo period with short sunrise and sunsets either side.


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## kellyboy47 (11 Jul 2020)

hypnogogia said:


> Kept at 100% from 3-8



But surely they would be off during this period


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## kellyboy47 (11 Jul 2020)

REDSTEVEO said:


> On and then off. Five hours, you pick the period.
> Tell your concerned other half that you will be using the 50% E.I. Enriched water to water her plants in the house and garden.
> 
> Job done.



Already do this goes straight into garden water butt


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## REDSTEVEO (11 Jul 2020)

kellyboy47 said:


> Thanks everyone for your advice and suggestions although REDSTEVEO you were a bit near the mark by telling me to 'man up' if you know what I mean  but I'll let you off just this once and by the way the lighting period is 10 hours not 14.5 but I know still way too much.
> 
> I will make some adjustments as from today by decreasing the lighting period to 5 hours and decreasing the amount of ferts I put in. Will also did a bigger water change.
> 
> One point I would like to make is that my fish tank is all about the 'fish' hence the name and having a good looking planted tank is a bonus. I 've noticed that a lot of these incredible aquascapes that I see contain small species like Cardinal Tetras whereas mine for instance contain Blue Acaras, Kribs, Rainbows, Corydoras, Bolivian Rams and the like in a real community tank setup and it probably doesnt help the flora by the amount of waste these fish produce but there you go the fish come first



Hi @kellyboy47 yes I was near the mark, if you took offence to that I apologise. But it was you that mentioned your misses complaining not me. 😬😉 Your lighting period is actually 13.5 hours, from 9am in the morning till 10.30pm at night. You have got lights on regardless of the intensity.  Low Blue Light at 5% is still light, and with the fertilisers the algae will take advantage during those low light periods.

You are correct in your assumption that the kind of fish you are keeping will add lots of waste to your tank,  so I am betting that the Nitrate levels are way too high in your tank, then you are adding more with E.I. Which reinforces the point about the 50%  water changes. Have you measured your Nitrate levels? Have you got a decent test kit? What is the GH, KH, TDS, NO2, NO3, Microsiemens levels in the tank. Do you measure these?

I also notice you have a black substrate with pretty coloured bits in amongst it. Is there any nutrients in the substrate? Look at the grain size of your substrate, it is too large, particles of fish waste, uneaten food, all sitting in amongst the substrate.

It is a recipe for disaster where plants are concerned. I think you need to either RIP the whole lot out and start again, or go for option c) in my original reply.

You are welcome.

Good luck in whichever route you go down.


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## hypnogogia (11 Jul 2020)

kellyboy47 said:


> But surely they would be off during this period


Nope, they reach 100% at 3pm and stay that way until they get their next instruction from the controller at 8pm, at which point they start dimming slowly down to 10% between 8 and 9.


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## Nick72 (11 Jul 2020)

REDSTEVEO said:


> .......
> 
> I also notice you have a black substrate with pretty coloured bits in amongst it. Is there any nutrients in the substrate? Look at the grain size of your substrate, it is too large, particles of fish waste, uneaten food, all sitting in amongst the substrate.
> 
> It is a recipe for disaster where plants are concerned. I think you need to either RIP the whole lot out and start again, or go for option c) in my original reply......




Not quite sure what your point is here @REDSTEVEO 

Are you saying that the substrate grain size is too large and completely incompatible with a planted tank?  Or simply that the large grain size will require more maintenance if he is to be successful at growing plants?


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## hypnogogia (11 Jul 2020)

kellyboy47 said:


> One point I would like to make is that my fish tank is all about the 'fish' hence the name and having a good looking planted tank is a bonus. I 've noticed that a lot of these incredible aquascapes that I see contain small species like Cardinal Tetras whereas mine for instance contain Blue Acaras, Kribs, Rainbows, Corydoras, Bolivian Rams and the like in a real community tank setup and it probably doesnt help the flora by the amount of waste these fish produce but there you go the fish come first


But you’re asking for advice about the algae, which several people have provided.  It’s possible to keep the fish and plants in good harmony.  With all that fish waste feeding the plants  (and algae) you can reduce the EI dosing, increase water changes and reduce the lighting.  
I don’t have an aquascape. I have a heavily planted  community tank.  I have the same lights as you.  I change 50-70% water per week and have little to no algae.


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## kellyboy47 (11 Jul 2020)

REDSTEVEO said:


> Hi @kellyboy47 yes I was near the mark, if you took offence to that I apologise. But it was you that mentioned your misses complaining not me. 😬😉 Your lighting period is actually 13.5 hours, from 9am in the morning till 10.30pm at night. You have got lights on regardless of the intensity.  Low Blue Light at 5% is still light, and with the fertilisers the algae will take advantage during those low light periods.
> 
> You are correct in your assumption that the kind of fish you are keeping will add lots of waste to your tank,  so I am betting that the Nitrate levels are way too high in your tank, then you are adding more with E.I. Which reinforces the point about the 50%  water changes. Have you measured your Nitrate levels? Have you got a decent test kit? What is the GH, KH, TDS, NO2, NO3, Microsiemens levels in the tank. Do you measure these?
> 
> ...



Apology accepted although I do have a short fuse however it did make my other half laugh with your "man-up" comment. I appreciate you and everyone else that has replied in trying to help. I will make the interventions required. With regards to the gravel I hav'nt changed it in aeons although I would like to get some finer gravel especially for the corys. Trouble is at the moment the thought of rehoming the fish, removing the plants temporarily  whilst I change the gravel is something I could do without but I'll see after I make the changes. Do you still think I should reduce the ferts and at the same time the Easycarbo ?


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## kellyboy47 (11 Jul 2020)

hypnogogia said:


> I change 50-70% water per week and have little to no algae



Are you on a water meter ?


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## kellyboy47 (11 Jul 2020)

REDSTEVEO said:


> What is the GH, KH, TDS, NO2, NO3



NO3 is 250, GH is 16d, KH is 15d, NO2 is 1, CL2 is 0


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## Nick72 (11 Jul 2020)

kellyboy47 said:


> NO3 is 250, GH is 16d, KH is 15d, NO2 is 1, CL2 is 0




Most people advise keeping NO3 below 20ppm for the health of the fish.

Personally I keep my tank closer to 35ppm, and some say fish can thrive at much higher levels, but 250ppm is very high. It's likely to be harmful to fish in my opinion.

NO2 at 1ppm is simply unacceptable, this will kill fish.  You need to get it down to zero.

All of your issues stem from lack of regular and sufficient water changes.


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## hypnogogia (11 Jul 2020)

kellyboy47 said:


> Do you still think I should reduce the ferts and at the same time the Easycarbo ?


Yes. Especially with this water values  you quoted. You’ve  got enough NO3 there to last you several weeks without EI ferts.


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## hypnogogia (11 Jul 2020)

kellyboy47 said:


> Are you on a water meter ?


Rain water cut with tap.


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## REDSTEVEO (11 Jul 2020)

Nick72 said:


> Not quite sure what your point is here @REDSTEVEO
> 
> Are you saying that the substrate grain size is too large and completely incompatible with a planted tank?  Or simply that the large grain size will require more maintenance if he is to be successful at growing plants?


The substrate is too large, basically allowing lots of fish waste etc to build, up. Hence the 250ppm Niyraye levels.


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## Nick72 (11 Jul 2020)

REDSTEVEO said:


> The substrate is too large, basically allowing lots of fish waste etc to build, up. Hence the 250ppm Niyraye levels.



I can't agree with you on that.

The OP's substrate looks about the same size as mine and I don't have any issues.

It also looks the same size as Eco-Complete which is one of the leading substrates on the market.

As long as the tank is well maintained I don't think the OP will have any direct issues with his substrate.


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## REDSTEVEO (11 Jul 2020)

Nick72 said:


> I can't agree with you on that.
> 
> The OP's substrate looks about the same size as mine and I don't have any issues.
> 
> ...


If you look closely at the photographs of that substrate it looks a bit like the shiny black stuff popular with fancy goldfish tanks. You know the ones you see with treasure chests, sunken ships and skulls etc. It has even got the multi coloured sprinkles as well. So my real point is, that it is not ideal substrate for growing plants in, it is non porous, nothing for the plant roots to grip on to.

ECO Complete might be similar in grain size, but at least that is proper plant substrate.


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## sparkyweasel (11 Jul 2020)

kellyboy47 said:


> Thanks for your advice. I'm sure my controller is catered for that but in your opinion how should I distribute the 5 hour lighting period over the 4 settings


You could just have on and off, but I'm assuming you want the gradual increase for your fish; in which case ramping up from off to full over 10 or 15 minutes will be ok.


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## sparkyweasel (11 Jul 2020)

kellyboy47 said:


> I 've noticed that a lot of these incredible aquascapes that I see contain small species like Cardinal Tetras whereas mine for instance Blue Acaras, Kribs, Rainbows, Corydoras, Bolivian Rams and the like in a real community tank setup and it probably doesnt help the flora by the amount of waste these fish produce but there you go the fish come first .


No problem keeping plants with those sorts of fish. You need to adjust yout ferts to allow for the amout of nitrogen in the fish's waste.
I would cut out the macro (NPK) completely to start with and see how the plants get on. You might need to go back to dosing _small _amounts of P and/or K if and when the plants show they need it.


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## Onoma1 (11 Jul 2020)

sparkyweasel said:


> No problem keeping plants with those sorts of fish. You need to adjust yout ferts to allow for the amout of nitrogen in the fish's waste.
> I would cut out the macro (NPK) completely to start with and see how the plants get on. You might need to go back to dosing _small _amounts of P and/or K if and when the plants show they need it.



TNC Light fertiliser is designed for use in heavily stocked tanks. They aren't selling direct atm, however you can buy it from Aquarium Gardens and elsewhere. 

https://thenutrientcompany.com/

I have to disagree about the substrate as other forum members have proved that they can grow hungry plants in inert substrates with correct fertilisation  (not an approach I follow but it seems to work). If the particle size is an issue I would suggest draining and just capping your gravel with sand (use the existing base to your advantage). 

I found moving to a low tech dirted rank, using the duck weed index and large numbers of slower growing plants and a large diverse 'clean up crew' led to a much more resilient system. This allows a longer photo period (so I could enjoy the tank for longer) and needs smaller number of water changes and reduced volumes removing.  Algae in this system is an input as a source of energy for the micro fauna as the start of a food chain.  Having a sparkling substrate isn't necessary. This was my path to a relaxing experience and achieving flow.  I am pushing this a bit further atm in a paludarium.  It's working so far and I am still learning. Others take different paths. 

Given the increasing cost of water and predicted water shortages due to climate change I guess the world of 50% changes on a regular basis will eventually priced out and (unless reused) will eventually seen as morally unacceptable (social norms change). Your other half may be onto something.


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## kellyboy47 (11 Jul 2020)

REDSTEVEO said:


> If you look closely at the photographs of that substrate it looks a bit like the shiny black stuff popular with fancy goldfish tanks. You know the ones you see with treasure chests, sunken ships and skulls etc. It has even got the multi coloured sprinkles as well. So my real point is, that it is not ideal substrate for growing plants in, it is non porous, nothing for the plant roots to grip on to.
> 
> ECO Complete might be similar in grain size, but at least that is proper plant substrate.



Alright, Alright lets not get too bitchy about my substrate for gods sake.....it is what it is


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## REDSTEVEO (11 Jul 2020)

kellyboy47 said:


> Alright, Alright lets not get too bitchy about my substrate for gods sake.....it is what it is



You asked for advice and some help. You posted the thread on Sunday. Nobody even replied, you thought you had broken the forum rules, which you hadn't. I replied on Thursday, since then others have offered advice. You got the truth.

Sometimes the truth hurts. Learn from it and move on.


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## Melll (12 Jul 2020)

kellyboy47 said:


> Trouble is at the moment the thought of rehoming the fish, removing the plants temporarily



Morning,  Hope you don`t mind me popping on here.  Why do you need to rehome the fish to do a substrate change over?   A large storage tub,  Ikea do some big ones, a filter from your tank and heater,  add water from the tank and the fish.  Empty the tank of water, have a cuppa, remove substrate, place new substrate in the tank, have a cuppa, replace plants, fill tank, replace fish, heater, filter etc.   An hour or 2 tops.  Have a cuppa and biscuits and tidy up. 
I would suggest you start to increase your water changes, 50% a week or more is quite normal, the fish would appreciate it as well as the plants.


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## REDSTEVEO (12 Jul 2020)

Melll said:


> Morning,  Hope you don`t mind me popping on here.  Why do you need to rehome the fish to do a substrate change over?   A large storage tub,  Ikea do some big ones, a filter from your tank and heater,  add water from the tank and the fish.  Empty the tank of water, have a cuppa, remove substrate, place new substrate in the tank, have a cuppa, replace plants, fill tank, replace fish, heater, filter etc.   An hour or 2 tops.  Have a cuppa and biscuits and tidy up.
> I would suggest you start to increase your water changes, 50% a week or more is quite normal, the fish would appreciate it as well as the plants.



Which is exactly what I was thinking, well done for suggesting such a brilliant simple solution to fix what is essentially an easy problem to fix. I have done exactly this several times in the past using two large water butt type barrels. Even kept the fish in there over two days. 

I would probably increase the 'cuppa' rate by at least three. I drink more tea in a week than the OP does in water changes. 😅😅😉


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## Melll (12 Jul 2020)

REDSTEVEO said:


> Which is exactly what I was thinking, well done for suggesting such a brilliant simple solution to fix what is essentially an easy problem to fix. I have done exactly this several times in the past using two large water butt type barrels. Even kept the fish in there over two days.
> 
> I would probably increase the 'cuppa' rate by at least three. I drink more tea in a week than the OP does in water changes. 😅😅😉



I drink coffee or a very unhealthy dark fizzy drink while doing stuff on the tanks and yes rather more than 2 in 2 hours  Jaffa cakes are a must also 

I would also, but maybe just me, do several 50% partial water changes on the tank in the days leading upto the substrate change so the fish don`t go into some sort of shock going from 250ppm Nitates, 1ppm Nitrites and who knows what Ammonia ppm, to a potentially 0,0,25ppm.

I do 50% partial water changes or more a week on all my tanks and I am on a water meter, so at least 2000 litres a week.  Oh and the pond as well so another 1500 litres or so.


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## REDSTEVEO (12 Jul 2020)

Good Morning @kellyboy47

Have a read of this journal for some inspiration. One of the best journals I ever read.

One day when I stop keeping Discus fish it is my ambition to try this.

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/going-dutch-by-the-book-tank-sponsored-by-tropica.38154/page-3


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## hypnogogia (12 Jul 2020)

REDSTEVEO said:


> Good Morning @kellyboy47
> 
> Have a read of this journal for some inspiration. One of the best journals I ever read.
> 
> ...


It’s a stunning aquarium.


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## JoshP12 (12 Jul 2020)

kellyboy47 said:


> have never got them to look like you see in 'show' tanks either on here or in retailers shops.



Hi Kelly!

As I read through the thread, I started to think that if we change our goals it may align with everything you want: long lighting  period (I deduced this), low maintenance. I am thinking we go low tech?

I have a tank upstairs that is right beside a window. I use no light (only take advantage of sunlight) and have several floating plants, in particular duckweed, to help with nutrient uptake. It has no plants (but I have ran low tech in the past) as my wife wanted the plastic ones with blue rocks 🤣.

Diana Walstad's < Ecology of the planted tank > could be an approach that you take.

The issue I think is that the strategy that people take to achieve 'show' tanks is:
1) expensive (there is no denying that the upfront cost of CO2 etc is not cheap - even with DIY everything).
2) requires meticulous cleaning, especially on start up - which means changing water.
3) requires CO2 injection.

Dennis Wong achieves a < nice low tech tank > but I bet he doesn't fertilize the water column and has nutrient rich and appropriate substrate.

In every case, it requires a restart - as the low-tech approach with minimal water changes will need a substrate to keep it balanced.

Except the case below:

Or, you find a way to lean out you fertilization to match the 3ppm of CO2 that you have. This will require intensive water changing and cleaning up front - so you will have to remove most of the waste from your tank, clean it intensely, remove dying plants, remove algae, rub all of the leaves, clean your filter, THEN dose minimal amounts. This will work by forcing a different nutrient (not CO2) to stop the assembly line of Liebig's law of the minimum - without running it out of course so riding a nice line - (the easiest one to use here is phosphate as it is more mobile within the plant vs. the water column, so the plant can stock up on phosphates from the WC while algae ... at least this is what I have gathered from reading - no formal link here). The goal becomes SLOW, healthy growth. You shouldn't have to trim for months. 

These are simply my thoughts .

Josh


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## dw1305 (12 Jul 2020)

Hi all, 





Onoma1 said:


> ......I found moving to a low tech dirted rank, using the duck weed index and large numbers of slower growing plants and a large diverse 'clean up crew' led to a much more resilient system. This allows a longer photo period (so I could enjoy the tank for longer) and needs smaller number of water changes and reduced volumes removing. Algae in this system is an input as a source of energy for the micro fauna as the start of a food chain. Having a sparkling substrate isn't necessary. This was my path to a relaxing experience and achieving flow. I am pushing this a bit further atm in a paludarium. It's working so far and I am still learning.


Same for me. I just think it is an <"easier juggle">, and that you have a lot more <"wriggle room"> when things go "wrong", mainly because everything <"happens a lot more slowly">. 

cheers Darrel


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## REDSTEVEO (12 Jul 2020)

JoshP12 said:


> Hi Kelly!
> 
> As I read through the thread, I started to think that if we change our goals it may align with everything you want: long lighting  period (I deduced this), low maintenance. I am thinking we go low tech?
> 
> ...


Excellent advice for everyone, and probably the best route for @kellyboy47  to go down.


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## kellyboy47 (4 Aug 2020)

3 and a bit weeks in and I have made some changes. I've been doing a 33% water change over past 3 weeks....I stopped the nutrients as suggested for about the same amount of time and have reduced the lighting period to 5 hours but I have now restarted the macro / micro ferts. I have trimmed the plants that had the worst algae but unfortunately the algae isnt getting markedly better and I have a lot of green algae on the substrate although I have 'hoovered' the gravel twice in the past 2 weeks. I have introduced some frogbit although think I need to buy some more.
Did a water test today and the readings were NO2 =0, NO3=100, CL2=0.8, KH 6d, GH 8d and PH 7.2 so I assume this has improved.
Do you think I am going the right way and should I replace the substrate in your opinion ? Any other recommendations would be gratefully received

Thanks
Trev


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## hypnogogia (5 Aug 2020)

Your chlorine is high.  Do you use a water conditioner  such as Prime when you do your water changes?  Also, your frog it should increase by itself, so you shouldn’t need to buy any more.  It it doesn’t increase, your doing something wrong - insufficient light or lack of nutrients.


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## kellyboy47 (5 Aug 2020)

Yes always have used Tetra Aquasafe at water change. I have taken advice from what other members have said on here and have a 5 hour lighting period as has been suggested as I was apparently using too much light. I have resumed adding same levels of Micro / Macro ferts


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## PARAGUAY (5 Aug 2020)

Well worth a look on George  Farmers YT channel George visits to Scaped Nature to see the low tech shop tank and Ray's low tech sets ups  at home


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## kellyboy47 (5 Aug 2020)

hypnogogia said:


> Your chlorine is high



Yes I have only been adding the dosage for the amount of water I change i.e 30ml for 60 litres of water when apparently I should be adding 90ml for a 180l tank  so I will be making changes here


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## nigel bentley (15 Aug 2020)

kellyboy47 said:


> 3 and a bit weeks in and I have made some changes. I've been doing a 33% water change over past 3 weeks....I stopped the nutrients as suggested for about the same amount of time and have reduced the lighting period to 5 hours but I have now restarted the macro / micro ferts. I have trimmed the plants that had the worst algae but unfortunately the algae isnt getting markedly better and I have a lot of green algae on the substrate although I have 'hoovered' the gravel twice in the past 2 weeks. I have introduced some frogbit although think I need to buy some more.
> Did a water test today and the readings were NO2 =0, NO3=100, CL2=0.8, KH 6d, GH 8d and PH 7.2 so I assume this has improved.
> Do you think I am going the right way and should I replace the substrate in your opinion ? Any other recommendations would be gratefully received
> 
> ...


Hi Kelly boy, Nitrate still pretty high but better. I too have had similar problems with the BBA, although my lighting period is much shorter than yours. I dose EI but due to having fish and quite a lot of nitrate in my tap water, I have started reducing potassium nitrate I add to macro solution. I'm reducing from 4 to 3 tsp. Maybe worth a go mate along with big water changes on every 7 th day. Good luck and don't give up 🤞


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## Melll (16 Aug 2020)

How is the tank coming on now?


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## kellyboy47 (24 Aug 2020)

nigel bentley said:


> Hi Kelly boy, Nitrate still pretty high but better. I too have had similar problems with the BBA, although my lighting period is much shorter than yours. I dose EI but due to having fish and quite a lot of nitrate in my tap water, I have started reducing potassium nitrate I add to macro solution. I'm reducing from 4 to 3 tsp. Maybe worth a go mate along with big water changes on every 7 th day. Good luck and don't give up 🤞



Did a water test yesterday after a water change and the readings were NO2 =0, NO3=100, CL2=0, KH 6d, GH 8d and PH 7.2 so not getting any worse but only slightly better with the CL2. We live in a 'Hard water' area so that probably doesnt help. I have reduced from 4 to 3tsp as you have and am still doing 33% water change every week but might have to alter the lighting  period to a 3 and a 2 hour period instead of 5 in all one go


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## kellyboy47 (24 Aug 2020)

Melll said:


> How is the tank coming on now?



Not got any worse but havnt seen an improvement as yet only in the CL2.  Been trying to rub the algae off the plants as they look awful. Water change 33% every week


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## dw1305 (24 Aug 2020)

Hi all, 





kellyboy47 said:


> but might have to alter the lighting period to a 3 and a 2 hour period instead of 5 in all one go


I wouldn't go any shorter than five hours in the main block. You need to make sure that your plants <"have sufficient light"> (above light compensation point (LCP)). I've never kept a high tech. tank and I understand about carbon limitation, but I don't understand how 19 hours below LCP can improve plant growth. 

Low tech I have all my tanks on an "~12 hour day", the ones at home have a couple of hours off around midday so that I can see them both morning and evening in the winter.

cheers Darrel


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## kellyboy47 (12 Sep 2020)

Update on recent issue. Please see photos on sorry state of plants 

Currently doing a larger water change 33%. 
Have changed all filter media in internal Juwel filter with new
Lighting period 5 hours in one block - 100% Blue 100% White on Juwel Helialux lighting
EI dosing back to normal quantities
Current readings after water change today:
NO3= 25
NO2 =0
GH= 16d
KH=15d
PH=7.6
CL2=0

I was going to buy some substrate like ECO Complete or Tropica and top with sand or gravel but in hindsight I think I am losing the
battle with my tank conditions so what I propose to do is cut my losses on the following:

Remove all substrate and discard plants
Thoroughly clean tank
Replace plants with hardy species such as Anubias, Buce, Java on wood / rock instead of stem plants with which I have had no luck whatsoever !
Have smaller grain gravel / sand as I am keen on adding more Corydoras.

In respect of the gravel which make would anybody suggest and what grain size or indeed as another option just have a pure  a sand base or is that not advisable 😕

Any help gratefully received


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## kellyboy47 (11 Oct 2020)

I have recently drained down my tank (3 weeks ago), cleaned everything thoroughly, removed the gravel and discarded the plants.

I have now tried to rescape my tank and have added Tropica Aquarium soil, Dragon stone, purchased new plants and have cut down the nutrients / easycarbo I was using by 50%. The lighting period is set to 6 hours and all was fine for a week and a bit and now I have brown algae affecting both the hardscape and the plants and I am wondering whether this is normal.

I googled for resolutions and it suggested I was either not getting enough or  conversely too much light or because I have started anew this is signs of the tank cycling ?  I have spent a lot of money to try and get my tank looking reasonable but I'm concerned I am heading in the same direction as before


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## Mr.Shenanagins (11 Oct 2020)

Brown algae, or diatoms, is perfectly normal. Mileage varies on how long it sticks around though. Since you have some larger livestock I’d go with snails to help with it’s eradication as shrimp or Otos would be decimated by your cichlids. It’s one of the most frustrating times with a new tank, but it’s not the end and merely the beginning. When you do your water changes, wipe down the glass and all decorations as best you can so that the diatoms/algae is free floating. During this time it’s beneficial to do changes at least once, but preferably twice a week at 50% or more.

as has already been noted, you have very limited plant stocking so algae already has a leg up if you provide too much light. If you can dim your light I would, 50% for a few weeks until you notice good growth in your plants. But I’d recommend you add more plants as well.


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## dcurzon (12 Oct 2020)

I have the same essex hard water. Using Tropica aquarium soil powder and EI dosing, I have plenty of growth going on (also co2).  I'm running 8 hours/day light and EI dosing, but have more plant mass.  Try some fast growing plants.  In my Essex water, the plants that I can literally see growth on a daily basis are Egeria Densa, Tiger Lotus, Vallisneria Spiralis


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## kellyboy47 (12 Oct 2020)

Mr.Shenanagins said:


> Brown algae, or diatoms, is perfectly normal. Mileage varies on how long it sticks around though. Since you have some larger livestock I’d go with snails to help with it’s eradication as shrimp or Otos would be decimated by your cichlids. It’s one of the most frustrating times with a new tank, but it’s not the end and merely the beginning. When you do your water changes, wipe down the glass and all decorations as best you can so that the diatoms/algae is free floating. During this time it’s beneficial to do changes at least once, but preferably twice a week at 50% or more.
> 
> as has already been noted, you have very limited plant stocking so algae already has a leg up if you provide too much light. If you can dim your light I would, 50% for a few weeks until you notice good growth in your plants. But I’d recommend you add more plants as well.



Thanks for your reply. I do intend to buy more plants but only bought a few to see how they went. The Hottonia is growing quite well but strange thing is the top growth is free from the brown algae but the bottom growth isn't . I have reduced the light intensity to 50% and will see how I get on. The brown algae wiped off very easily from the Echinodorus which was a bonus as the algae problem I had before was horrendous ! So what type of snail would you recommend ?


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## kellyboy47 (12 Oct 2020)

dcurzon said:


> I have the same essex hard water. Using Tropica aquarium soil powder and EI dosing, I have plenty of growth going on (also co2).  I'm running 8 hours/day light and EI dosing, but have more plant mass.  Try some fast growing plants.  In my Essex water, the plants that I can literally see growth on a daily basis are Egeria Densa, Tiger Lotus, Vallisneria Spiralis



Are you using injected CO2 or liquid carbon. The previous poster recommended dimming my lights to 50% which I have just done. Have you got the same lights as me ?


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## Mr.Shenanagins (12 Oct 2020)

kellyboy47 said:


> So what type of snail would you recommend ?


I have nerite snails, olive to be more specific. They tend to be less expensive but aren’t as “pretty” as the tiger or other fancy varieties. But they are workhorses for diatom and green algae. Other people also go for ramshorn snails too. The nerites won’t breed so you won’t have an outbreak of snails but they do lay white eggs that are hard to rub off but I barely notice them. I have a 40 gallon tank with about 30 of them in there.


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## Mr.Shenanagins (12 Oct 2020)

kellyboy47 said:


> The Hottonia is growing quite well but strange thing is the top growth is free from the brown algae but the bottom growth isn't .


Algae cannot compete with a healthy growing plant, so that’s why you won’t see new growth covered in it. When a plant’s growth goes stagnant, then algae takes over. So that’s a good sign that your tops are clear. If the bottom continues to look crummy, cut off the healthy portion and replant it if you have enough stem, 4” or more.


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## dcurzon (12 Oct 2020)

kellyboy47 said:


> Are you using injected CO2 or liquid carbon. The previous poster recommended dimming my lights to 50% which I have just done. Have you got the same lights as me ?


I don't know what lights you have, but probably not.  
1x Juwel 125 with the standard t5's, bulbs are at least 10 years old, sand substrate,  8 hours light 12-8pm.
1x Juwel 72 with generic Chinese led light bar, approx 18w.  Tropica soil powder. 8 hours light 12-8pm, back light used for ramp up/down.
Injected co2 (was using diy co2 for a short while) on both.


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## REDSTEVEO (31 Oct 2020)

kellyboy47 said:


> I have recently drained down my tank (3 weeks ago), cleaned everything thoroughly, removed the gravel and discarded the plants.
> 
> I have now tried to rescape my tank and have added Tropica Aquarium soil, Dragon stone, purchased new plants and have cut down the nutrients / easycarbo I was using by 50%. The lighting period is set to 6 hours and all was fine for a week and a bit and now I have brown algae affecting both the hardscape and the plants and I am wondering whether this is normal.
> 
> I googled for resolutions and it suggested I was either not getting enough or  conversely too much light or because I have started anew this is signs of the tank cycling ?  I have spent a lot of money to try and get my tank looking reasonable but I'm concerned I am heading in the same direction as before


Sorry for the late reply to your post. What you have done is a big step in the right direction. But one thing I did pick up on in one of your earlier posts, is that you are relying on the Juwel Internal filter. Just my humble opinion, but that is contributing to all your problems. Every Juwel tank I've had in the past, the first thing I do is take out the fitted filters that come with them. 

All the muck accumulating in it is sitting inside your aquarium which is why I think your NO3 is always high. Plus everytime you try to clean any part of it, all the crap is released into your tank.

You should consider a larger external canister filter, much more efficient and far easier to maintain.


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