# Pathway to Rio Negro 864L (biotope)



## Cayambe (6 Dec 2016)

Right, I might as well get started on my Journal!

After 15 years away from the hobby my "comeback" project will be a rather ambitious 864L setup, with a focus on the Amazon. I'm still dusting off my fathers old aquarium books from the 70'ties, while trying to get up to speed with what have happened in the hobby. Which Is massive! And I'm humbled by why I have seen here.

While the aquarium is being built in Germany, I have visited every LFS in a 200km radius, to see if I could find some good driftwood.

Will be updated as I go along:
*Aquarium: *Custom built Diamant Aquarien Germany in cm: 180Lx80Dx60H (Free standing/room devider, with one of the ends against the wall)
*Biotope/Theme: *Rio Negro / Black Water
*Filtration: *Eheim 2180 Thermal
*Heating: *500W inside the Eheim 2180
*Lighting: *1x Econlux Sunstrip 70, 145cm, 101w. 28 PAR at 60cm
*Co2*: -
*Fertilzer*: Tropica Premium
*Hardscape: *3 Large pieces of driftwood, and Botanicals from Tannin Aquatics
*Substrate*: "Light river sand" 0,3mm

*Fauna*:
L168 Dekeyseria brachyura
L183 Ancistrus dolichopterus
C. Duplicares
(maybe L114 - Rio Demini, Tributary of Rio Negro)

*Flora: *
With little known plants in the Rio Negro, other than flooded forest plants, I have decided on a compromise using the following:
Limnobium Laevegatum (floating)
Helanthium Tenellus (around roots)
Staugoryne Repens (around roots)
Vesicularia Dubyana xmas (roots)

(from alto)
I'd include some of the bigger _Echinodorus
Bacopa australis_ - nice small leaf for contrast, lovely color
_Heteranthera zosterifolia_ is a good "startup" plant as it's very fast growing (assuming suitable nutrients)
_Micranthemum_ 'Monte Carlo' - good carpet, it will grow slower in lower light but will usually still establish
_Potamogeton gayi_ - this is another favorite
_Staurogyne sp_. 'Porto Velho'
_Sagittaria subulata_ - this looks very good in a bigger tank


These are the first tryouts with the roots:


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## ourmanflint (6 Dec 2016)

I don't have any where near the experience of some on here, but I would advise you to reconsider using such big lumps of wood. Because they are just big lumps you will get lots of dead spots around them and underneath them which is not ideal for getting a good flow around the aquarium. 
I think you would be better off just collecting some wood from a nearby forest with better shapes for scaping

Cheers
Rod


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## bloskas (6 Dec 2016)

i vote for shoreline!!


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## Cayambe (6 Dec 2016)

The roots are somewhat hollow, you just don't really see it at those angles. But I understand your concern.

I like the "shoreline" one too!!


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## chrism (6 Dec 2016)

Two islands gets my vote. If this is a vote Although I'd like to see them moved closer together.

Also I'm totally jealous already!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Greenfinger2 (7 Dec 2016)

Hi Cayambe, I vote Shoreline  Following


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## Cayambe (7 Dec 2016)

Ok, I had another go with the setup. Painfully as it was to admit to myself, Rod might have had a point. It made me think that the two earlier layouts were a little "heavy". 

After a few hours of trials and tribulations, this is what I came up with. I call it... wait for it... "Pathway to Rio Negro"  Hope you like it


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## rebel (7 Dec 2016)

What's the planting plan?

You should get 1000 tetras for this one. Should see some natural behavior!!


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## Cayambe (7 Dec 2016)

Sticking to South American flora, some initial thoughts are:

Echinodorus quadricostatus (Right)
Staurogyne repens (middle)
Lilaeopsis brasiliensis (Far left/foreground)
Vesicularia dubyana (On Roots)
Alternanthera reineckii (Mid/right)

If you have any ideas or suggestions, let me know. I'm no expert, to put it mildly.


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## KipperSarnie (7 Dec 2016)

I'd leave your Fathers books on the shelf & invest in new!
I returned to the hobby 4 months back after a 30 year absence & all my old books are just that  "Old Books"  No use what soever in todays hobby, Even the so called  "Fishkeepers Bibles" are of little use these days.
With the root you can always saw them down the middle to give you two attractive pieces, 
I do this often, two for the price of one so to speak.

One problem going for an Amazon Biotope is most of the Amazon & it's tributaries are "Blackwater" & due to depth, very little plant life, no rocks.

I've been investigating Biotopes recently ready for 12 Wild Discus (Rio Tefe & the Rio Nanay)


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## KipperSarnie (7 Dec 2016)

For me I'd go for the single block shown in picture 7? but then I'm looking at it from my perspective which is perhaps not the right one!


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## Berlioz (7 Dec 2016)

Excited to see what you come up with! 

Shoreline was definitely my favourite. The third layout is very interesting and gnarly, but the centre piece throws it off for me.


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## Cayambe (7 Dec 2016)

Kipper, the thing is, you are right. If you threw a camera anywhere in the Amazon river, you would not come up with a perfect planted aquascape 

Ive been lucky enough to have visited the Amazon, in both Brazil and in Boliva, and its mostly as you say. Only in the wetter months, when the waters rise do we see plants, but then, those are mostly low trees and bushes.

I'm still going back and forth between making a "true" biotope, or try for a more planted, and perhabs less authentic? setup. I bought these roots cos they were perfect for the plecos I wanted to keep. But then I saw a video of Takashi Amano, and everything I knew about aquariums went down the drain. I'm still trying to salvage whatever is left... Those are some majestic aquascapes.

If I end up going the "black water" route, something like this has given me inspiration:


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## alto (7 Dec 2016)

Watch Ivan Mikolji videos of fish in their natural habitats - there are plenty of plant & fish zones, not discus of course (they aren't coming out of waters with neons & cardinal tetras   )


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## alto (7 Dec 2016)

To Biotope or not? 

- that really needs a lot more research & sourcing/ordering of plants - often not typically available as aquarium hobby plants (for various reasons)

Of course if you're going to be rigorous about plants, then this should follow for hardscape as well (I'd think   - sorry those African roots have to go  )


Consider your goals for this project - once the lovely glass box arrives, will you want to get it up & running fairly quickly ... or do you love the planning/acquiring stages
(& what about any significant others  )

OTOH there's no reason not to get the tank up & running - sort out all the technical bits, including your level of plant interest/ability -  then transition to a more "authentic" biotope 





Cayambe said:


> Sticking to South American flora, some initial thoughts are:
> 
> Echinodorus quadricostatus (Right)
> Staurogyne repens (middle)
> ...



pretty sure that _Vesicularia dubyana_ is Asian, you want _Vesicularia dubyana_ 'Christmas' (from Tropica) for Brasil origin

Tropica SA list
I'd include some of the bigger _Echinodorus
Bacopa australis_ - nice small leaf for contrast, lovely color
_Heteranthera zosterifolia_ is a good "startup" plant as it's very fast growing (assuming suitable nutrients)
_Micranthemum_ 'Monte Carlo' - good carpet, it will grow slower in lower light but will usually still establish
_Potamogeton gayi_ - this is another favorite
_Staurogyne sp_. 'Porto Velho'
_Staurogyne repens
Sagittaria subulata_ - this looks very good in a bigger tank

In a bigger tank, contrast of leaf & color will help create perspective
It's also good to begin with an assortment of plants & find which grow "better" in your tank conditions 

Of course this plant list won't create a "biotope" aquarium, but will do a SA themed tank nicely 

Lighting: I suspect you're going to need something on the order of the Kessil A360 series to get even "moderate" substrate PAR - the multitude of  (low watt) diode array type LEDS generally only provide high/moderate PAR if 30cm - 40cm water column depths.
Check with lighting manufacturers for type & intensity of emitters, request PAR data at 50cm - 60cm water column depths

I suspect that CO2 addition will also be required if you want substantial plant growth - take a look for tanks that are of similar depth (the volume:surface area significantly impacts passive diffusion)


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## Ryan Young (7 Dec 2016)

Honestly, if you are anything like me, a true biotype aquarium is all well and good for a short time but then when everything grows in and you stop seeing change it might start to feel a little dull. If you go towards a less authentic biotype you can keep all of the good elements of a biotype but add stuff which would keep you interested and with the end result you will have something that will stand out to others than being specifically beautiful to you.


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## grathod (7 Dec 2016)

Just catching up, I too am returning back to the hobby after a few years...
Shoreline does it for me and you'll defo have some dead spots but I've found using a small circulation pump placed behind the wood aids circulation so easily overcome.
It depends largely on your plant scheme imo and the fish you're going to keep. Eager to see how you develop this. Good luck


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## Cayambe (7 Dec 2016)

I do have a rock I picked up in the amazon river! Guess it will take more to complete an authentic biotope though. And I agree, If i truly wanted to create a biotope why stop at plants.. why not get authentic driftwood and sand too. I have to make a line somewhere.

Some good and valid points though.

In regards to lighting I will have to get in touch with my LED provider and see if he can help out. Lights and the CO2 question still remain. But that has to come when I have figured out the final layout. Which could be any day now!

I'm from Denmark and Tropica is practically next door, so at least i have plenty access to their plants and products.

Will watch that video!

I have added a few pics from my last trip to the Bolivian Amazon..


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## Cayambe (8 Dec 2016)

@alto I have found the PAR data on the Econlux Sunstrip LED lights I'm working with. Could you enlighten me of what I would work for me, If I go the at least partially planted tank route?

I'm thinking about adding 4x 850mm strips. Thats 28 PAR at 60cm pr. light as per the diagram. (If I go black water, I'd just add 1, but wider.)

I'm considering going low tech and not add any CO2.


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## Cayambe (9 Dec 2016)

I had another go at "Shoreline". It might be the most "balanced" of the 3 setups so far. I guess it will be a lot easier to see when the aquarium arrives.

Its inspired by one of Amano's creations, and If I do "shoreline" I will try and use that as a guide.


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## Aqua360 (9 Dec 2016)

that's massive! Looking forward to updates on what I'm guessing will be a very challenging but rewarding thread. Also, 10 sterbai's? How about 100 for size lol


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## sciencefiction (9 Dec 2016)

Hey mate, great project, looking forward to the development.
If you want a good new book, Heiko Blehers biotope book that recently came out looks the way to go. I am intending to treat myself to it soon.
Have you considered a true biotope below the water but open top aquarium with emersed plants to get the benefit of plants, and beauty of course...


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## ourmanflint (10 Dec 2016)

What if you swapped the two end pieces over? Sometimes it can be stronger to have biggest first! 
Will be interesting to see how this all turns out. I do like biotopes


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## Cayambe (11 Dec 2016)

I've been doing some more research, but I'm still all over the place with where I want to take the setup. Only thing still set in stone is the Amazon biotope/themed layout.

I am slowly getting up to speed with the concepts of light/nutritions/Co2. My last tank was a 530L amazon biotope with L numbers and Geophagus.. Only plants were some Anubias, which didnt require much of anything. Back then I hadn't even heard of Co2 injection. I never had much trouble with algae, keeping to my weekly water changes.

Fast forward till today. I now understand that you need a balance between this holy trinity light/nutritions/Co2 . At least if you want to be successful with a more planted tank. Mostly to understand it myself ill make a list of my discoveries thus far:

If you go low tech with no Co2 added, you can't have too much light, since the plants will quickly use up whatever Co2 is in the water. In fact if you have much more than 30 PAR at max depth, you will need to add Co2.

When Co2 runs low and light is high, algae blooms. 

Thats why you add Co2, to take advantage of the higher light intensity. Buhjaa!

In a low tech tank, you want a high level of surface movement so as to get higher gas transfer. I.e. when low on oxygen, you get more oxygen, when low on Co2, more Co2 is diffused into the water column. Likewise if you have too much Co2, higher water movement, will dilute it out faster. Thats why you want high water movement in low tech (even walsted style setups, it seems), as opposed to high tech setups, where you don't want too much of that precious Co2 to leave the tank. (even though George says that he actually prefers high water movement, even in a high tech tank, for the benefit of getting more oxygen.)

If I have about 28 PAR at 60cm depth (which my current lighting plan will give me), I will struggle with all but the "easiest" plants, especially if I want to make a carpet.
But If I add more light, I will need to add Co2.

With 864L and a 180cm tank, I would need fire extinguisher level stuff, to have a sustainable 25-30 ppm of Co2. 

For a guy who hardly knew about this stuff 3 months ago, that is probably a recipe for disaster. 

Luckily, I like the low tech/minimal outside influence approach, even if that will make it harder for me to grow my plants.
So where does that leave me? Probably somewhere down the low tech route, opting for easier, less light demanding plants.

*A few questions I've been wanting to ask.* Couldn't you add just a little Co2, instead of trying to reach 25-30 ppm. I understand that with a normal low tech approach we will get about 1-2 ppm. What if I just wanted to help my plants out a little and get to about 5-10 ppm, couldn't that be done? Couldn't I just set up my Co2 kit so that I throw out say 1 bubble a minute (yes a minute). Or would that just be silly? Its a 864L tank after all... how much would I need to just get to about 5ppm?

Would running a 1 bubble a minute routine 24/7, in a 864L tank, help out the plants, and increase the ppm? Or again, am I just being silly?


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## sciencefiction (11 Dec 2016)

Cayambe said:


> I understand that with a normal low tech approach we will get about 1-2 ppm



What is a normal low tech approach first of all? And where did you get the info about co2 being 1-2ppm in a low tech? Regardless, there is scientific info that higher light compensates for lower co2 and vice versa. So when one sets up a real low tech tank with low light and no CO2, they are giving their plants the worst of worlds. A low tech tank in my opinion should have medium light, dense planting with fast growers as well as slow growers, and a rich substrate such as soil that would produce co2 via oxygen driven decomposition, etc....That would give good growth for sure. Alternatively, some CO2 should be injected. Again, there's scientific info that 10ppm CO2 is optimum for majority of plants so injecting what others consider "low" amount of co2 will certainly be of benefit...And yes, low or high tech tank, good water movement and gas exchange is essential, especially in a low tech... CO2 in substrate is produced via O2 means and also exchanged via surface movement because co2 is more water soluble than O2 and is also havier than air...So not enough oxygen or surface agitation = no co2 but instead hydrogen sulfate, methane, etc..

What I've found is that people start reading stuff on internet and discard possibilities without even thinking of attempting other methods, as if the "low tech" approach is set in stone and gives excellent results... .In reality, following the "general low tech" method gives unsatisfying results in probably 80% of the cases...Because you can't have a healthy planted low tech tank with diverse plants if you immediately give your plants light below their compensation point, no ferts, no water movement for O2 and CO2 exchange, inert substrate, no ferts/insufficient ferts, etc...


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## Cayambe (11 Dec 2016)

sciencefiction said:


> And where did you get the info about co2 being 1-2ppm in a low tech?



From plecoplanet "Typical CO2 levels in tank water are dependent upon temperature, pressure and the carbonate content of the water, but should be in the range of 1 – 2ppm (at sea level, at 27oC" http://plecoplanet.com/?page_id=829

What you are saying is that you could add "some" Co2, and that would still be better than nothing, as long as its stable..?

Reading these forums I get the impression that you either balance your Co2 for sweet lime green, 25-30ppm or jump into the ocean.


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## sciencefiction (11 Dec 2016)

Cayambe said:


> From plecoplanet "Typical CO2 levels in tank water are dependent upon temperature, pressure and the carbonate content of the water, but should be in the range of 1 – 2ppm (at sea level, at 27oC" http://plecoplanet.com/?page_id=829



This statement is extremely vague... The availability to plants and rate of production of co2 in tank is dependent on more factors than temperature, pressure and carbonate content...


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## sciencefiction (11 Dec 2016)

Cayambe said:


> Reading these forums I get the impression that you either balance your Co2 for sweet lime green, 25-30ppm or jump into the ocean



Yes, one reads too much what others think and does not think for themselves.
This forum is full of unsucessful 25-30ppm CO2 tanks....so how are those high levels of co2 the only/necessary criteria for growing healthy plants...


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## sciencefiction (11 Dec 2016)

Cayambe said:


> What you are saying is that you could add "some" Co2, and that would still be better than nothing, as long as its stable..?



Why does it need to be stable? That's another invented misconception....I read years ago how in a low tech tank one should not do big water changes in order to avoid co2 fluctuations caused by tap water, and thus algae. That's a lot of b*****t, excuse my language...

Yes, injecting more co2 will certainly be of benefit to the plants. In a large tank you'll probably find out that you'd need to move different species of plants around until you find where they grow best because the conditions around the tank will differ(this applies even if no co2 is injected) One species of plant may be extremely happy in the middle of the tank and dies 40cm further from that location.. So being flexible with plant choice and planting locations is an essential approach in a low tech. In a high tech folks try to optimise the conditions throughout the entire tank...


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## Cayambe (11 Dec 2016)

Thanks for your reply. Its kinda like explaining to a first grade student the flaws and misconceptions of modern philosphy. I just got here man, just trying to catch up 

I'm all for "low tech", was just wondering if I could add a bit of CO2, without everything exploding in my face.


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## dan4x4 (11 Dec 2016)

Cayambe said:


> Thanks for your reply. Its kinda like explaining to a first grade student the flaws and misconceptions of modern philosphy. I just got here man, just trying to catch up
> 
> I'm all for "low tech", was just wondering if I could add a bit of CO2, without everything exploding in my face.



Try it without co2 and then you always have the option of adding it again at a later date.

Look at the member on here that grew plants in a tank on his window sill with natural light and without added co2. The results are amazing! I cant remember his username  Ill try to find it.


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## dan4x4 (11 Dec 2016)

Also some people do the DIY co2 route and have great success! So I image you could probably supplement as long as you have available nutrients and enough light I guess?


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## Cayambe (12 Dec 2016)

sciencefiction said:


> Hey mate, great project, looking forward to the development.
> If you want a good new book, Heiko Blehers biotope book that recently came out looks the way to go. I am intending to treat myself to it soon.
> Have you considered a true biotope below the water but open top aquarium with emersed plants to get the benefit of plants, and beauty of course...



I will have to look at that book for sure. The tank I have in production right now, is built with a cover. But a "Paludarium" of sorts would be nice. I didnt think of it when I put in the order! I would worry about the water evaporation in a tank that size though.



ourmanflint said:


> What if you swapped the two end pieces over? Sometimes it can be stronger to have biggest first!
> Will be interesting to see how this all turns out. I do like biotopes



I did try your suggestion, but its sort of a free standing tank, with only the "right" end towards the wall. So I need a balance from all sides... which of cause is incredibly difficult!

The more I work out the layout of the tank, the more I revert back to the initial thought of creating a black water bio. With the massive surface area of my roots, I'm considering using them as a "playfield" for the plants. Only issue is, I will be hard pressed trying to find epiphytes from Southamerica, at least by the looks of it. The only plant I have found that would "easily" grow on the roots from SA would be the brasilian chrismas moss.

I'm considering having the bottom covered in an inert sand, and then only have plants on the roots. There is plenty of holes, and depressions in the wood, where I could add Soil, and then plant in that. I always had my anubias fastened onto the wood, but I cant do that in this bio.

Any suggestions of SA plants that would grow on wood or in very little soil?


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## Cayambe (12 Dec 2016)

dan4x4 said:


> Also some people do the DIY co2 route and have great success! So I image you could probably supplement as long as you have available nutrients and enough light I guess?


Yea, its either no CO2 or supplement. I have considered using Tropica's Nano CO2 setup, and just let it flow a few bubbles a minute 24/7. On a tank this size though, I'm not sure that would make any difference at all.


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## dw1305 (12 Dec 2016)

Hi all, 





sciencefiction said:


> Yes, injecting some CO2 will certainly be of benefit to the plants.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes I think 10ppm CO2 would be of benefit to most, if not all, aquatic plants.





Cayambe said:


> "Typical CO2 levels in tank water are dependent upon temperature, pressure and the carbonate content of the water, but should be in the range of 1 – 2ppm (at sea level, at 27oC" http://plecoplanet.com/?page_id=829





sciencefiction said:


> This statement is extremely vague... The availability to plants and rate of production of co2 in tank is dependent on more factors than temperature, pressure and carbonate content...


I should put the disclaimer that I'm the author of the PlecoPlanet article first, but I still think that the figures are in the right ball park. Because we can't accurately measure dissolved CO2 all methods of measurement are indirect (like using a drop checker).

The article was written specifically for keepers of rheophilic plecs, so it assumes that the tank will have an inert sand, or fine gravel, substrate, the water will be warm and the tank will have a fairly high water turn-over. Even though the article is really about oxygenation, it talks a lot about plants because plant/microbe filtration systems retain high water quality, and high water quality retains high oxygenation. 

One reason why I'm so keen on <"Diana Walstad's aerial advantage"> is that it takes CO2 availability out of the equation, any plant with aerial leaves (like a floating or emergent plant) has access to at least 400ppm CO2, and isn't carbon  limited.

cheers Darrel


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## Cayambe (12 Dec 2016)

Black Water rivers of the Amazon: 


Apaporis River: A tributary of the Yapura River.
Arapiuns River: A tributary of the Tapajós River.
Coari River
Potaro River: A tributary of the Mazaruni River.
Mazaruni River
Mirití-Paraná River
Rio Negro: The largest blackwater river in the world; one of the largest Amazonian tributaries.
Piorini River
Tahuayo River
Tefé River
Uatumã River
Urubu River
Vaupés River


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## alto (12 Dec 2016)

can't believe my previous reply got lost 
 - well actually I can   lately this site keeps dumping me  

Anyway check out Mike Tucc FB & his Biotopes of the Rio Negro article in Amazonas Magazine


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## Cayambe (12 Dec 2016)

alto said:


> can't believe my previous reply got lost
> - well actually I can   lately this site keeps dumping me
> 
> Anyway check out Mike Tucc FB & his Biotopes of the Rio Negro article in Amazonas Magazine


 
Nooo 

Thanks, I was just looking at a species list from Rio Negro: http://fish.mongabay.com/data/ecosystems/Rio Negro.htm

edit: this one is better: http://www.fishbase.org/trophiceco/FishEcoList.php?ve_code=63

Pretty interesting journey this is taking me on, even though i'm lying in a sofa. Adventure has many forms!


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## alto (12 Dec 2016)

Below Water is also a good resource

(I still mourn the loss of the old Monga Bay site - hacked or just crashed I don't recall)


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## Cayambe (13 Dec 2016)

This is some of my research on flora & fauna on Amazonia Black Water Rivers, mainly Rio Negro. This is by no means exhaustive and I will add to it as I go along.

I first visited the amazon and Rio Negro back in 1993 with my parents, experiencing the incredible sight of Rio Negro melting into Amazonas Proper. I was only 13 years old back then, and the sight marked me for life! Ever since I have either wanted to work in the Amazon (and I did, in 97' and again in 2010) or at least have something to do with it, hence this aquarium project 

Once it was thought that Rio Negro was not capable of sustaining human inhabitants, since very few indigenous tribes were found along the shores of Rio Negro, by the first Spanish explorers. Later this has been debunked, as more and more species of fish has been discovered. It is now believed that the low number of indigenous tribes along these waters, were a direct cause of European diseases spreading.

Anyway, back on track. This is what I have found so far.

*Fauna*
It seems there is plenty to choose from, and it is thought that about 800 species of fish live in these waters. Probably a lot more. Only a fraction of that is "known" to the hobby though, and again only a fraction of that would fit in an aquarium, not to mention being available at my lfs.

I picked some species that might work in my Rio Negro bio:

*Cichlids*
Iotoecus opercularis
Dicrossus filamentosos
Taeniacara candidi

Discus is another possibilty, but is probably out of scope for this project.

*Catfish*
L168 Dekeyseria brachyura
L183 Ancistrus dolichopterus
C. Duplicares
(maybe L114 - Rio Demini, Tributary of Rio Negro)

Cosidered:
Ancistrus dolichopterus l183
Hemiloricaria teffeana
Harttia uatumensis
Parotocinclus polyochrus
Dekeyseria brachyura
Peckoltia braueri
Hemiloricaria melini
Hypancistrus inspector
Oxyropsis acutirostra
Peckoltia sabaji l075 (??) I love this one, and have kept it before. It gets rather big though about 25cm. I'm not sure if its a "true" Black Water species though.
Amblydoras affinis
Pseudolithoxus Nicki
Pseudolithoxus dummes
Hypancistrus sp. l136C
Parotocinclus polyochrus
Ancistrus dolichopterus

Corydoras Serratus, robinae, rabauti, parallelus, incolicana, imitator, duplicares, crypticus, amandajanea, adolfoi, burgessi, crimmeni, crypticus, davidsandsi, kanai, nijsseni, tukano
*
Tetras*
Paracheirodon axelrodi (obviously)

*Snails *(not restricted to Rio Negro, but still amazonian)
Asolene spixi
Marisa cornuarietis

*Endemic species*
_Tucanoichthys_, _Ptychocharax_, _Atopomesus_, _Leptobrycon_, _Niobichthys_, and _Stauroglanis_

*Flora*
With little known plants in the Rio Negro, other than flooded forest plants, I have decided on a compromise using the following:
Limnobium Laevegatum (floating)
Helanthium Tenellus (around roots)
Staugoryne Repens (around roots)
Vesicularia Dubyana xmas (roots)

I could also add: Heteranthera zosterifolia

*Botanicals*
Lots of different botanicals from Tannin Aquatics

*Flora cont.*
This is where the true challenge of a black water biotope lies. Because of poor light penetration, most flora is either submerged bushes and trees, or semi aquatic plants growing very close to shore. In fact some expeditions report nearly zero plant life in the river itself. There is however plenty of plant life surrounding Rio Negro, being one of the most biodiverse areas of the planet.

One expedition in 2009: "In the nutrient-poor waters of the Rio Negro there are practically no underwater plants. Not until the linking canal, into which water was forced from the Solimões, was there any improvement in the nutrient content and the number of species of aquatic plants increased significantly."

Interview with Peter Kriz, another Rio Negro expedition:
"Were there any aquatic plants?
There was almost no aquatic vegetation. Nor did I see any floating plants in the Rio Negro. This could be due to several factors including there are just normally very few aquatic plants or they may be seasonally active and wait for the water rise to occur. I was there at the time of the absolute lowest seasonal water level of the river. This area would be deeper water for the rest of the year. Possibly farther up on land is where the plants would be more likely to grow."

I have yet to get any confirmation of plants in Rio Negro other than what I have seen myself, (which I can hardly remember) and on pictures.

Through contact with Tropica, I have learned that the underscored plants _should_ be authentic occurences. The bold plants are stretching it to fit. The others not so much.
*Cabomba furcata, Cabomba aquatica, Echinodorus tenellus, Ludwigia palustris, Echinodorus quadricostatus*, Echinodorus amazonicus, *Eleocharis vivipara*, *Staurogyne repens*, Vallisneria americana, Myriophyllum aquaticum, Hydrocotyle leucocephala, Eleocharis acicularis, Limnobium laevigatum, Pistia stratiotes, Sagittaria subulata, *Ceratophyllum demersum*, *Myriophyllum mattogrossense, Echinodorus bleheri*

One study of antimalarial plant use by locals of Rio Negro did show a specific plant list, although these are not necessarily aquatic in nature:
Glycidendron amazonicum, Heteropsis tenuispadix, Monopteryx uaucu, Phenakospermum guianensis, Pouteria ucuqui, Sagotia brachysepala and notably Aspidosperma schultesii, Ampelozizyphus amazonicus, Euterpe catinga, E. precatoria, Physalis angulata, Cocos nucifera and Swartzia argentea

Some trees in the region that get flooded: _Virola elongata_, _Eschweilera longipes_, _E. pachysepala_, and _Pithecellobium amplissimum_

The quest for specific aquatic plants that DO exist in the waters of Rio Negro, continues.

*Sources:*
http://fish.mongabay.com/data/ecosystems/Rio Negro.htm
http://www.fishbase.org/search.php
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/
http://www.roggo.ch/thefreshwaterproject/rionegro.htm (incredible footage)
http://www.reef2rainforest.com/2016/12/09/biotope-video-cichlid-heaven-in-the-lower-rio-negro/
http://all4aquarium.ru/en/events/jbl-biotope-contest-2013/entries
https://www.jbl.de/en/expeditions-2009-brazil/detail/9/expedition-2009-brazil?page_id=4999
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/archive/index.php/t-25886.html


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## Cayambe (1 Mar 2017)

The aquarium will arrive on friday!

Meanwhile i've been testing out some sand. My goal was to find some light and soft sand to mimic that from Rio Negro .

The one on the right is "El Dorado White Cichlid Sand" 0,5-08mm, mostly used for african cichlids here in Denmark. The middle is a softer more "warm" colored "Light River Sand" 0,3-05mm. The left is a mix of the two.

Ill go for the middle one. My cories should love it.


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## alto (1 Mar 2017)

Not sure how deep a sand bed you're planning but beware of compacting once water pressure is a factor - including some larger 1-3 mm range sand will help, also less regular shaped particles & of course some nice sand shifting fish in addition to the sand sifters 

In a heavily planted aquarium (you can see lots of sand/fine gravel substrate on Tropica's website) the plant roots will aerate the substrate to a certain degree though you can still experience significant compaction under hardscape - why I  remove livestock if significant re-scaping or moving hardscape (I lost an entire tank of fish/shrimp despite (reasoned) precautions when thinning out a valisneria thicket intent on world domination) 

Test for pH effects on any sands/gravels marketed for African cichlids 

Friday will be dazzling I'm sure


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## Cayambe (2 Mar 2017)

Hi alto!

The manufacturer recommends no deeper than 3cm, for the same reason, which I will adhere to. I could add in some coarser sand, or pepples.. I will look into that.. Or simply mixing the two.

Soon now!


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## Cayambe (2 Mar 2017)

Some of the botanicals I got from Tannin Aquatics. I've been soaking some of this stuff for a week now.


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## Eduard18 (2 Mar 2017)

Hi there ! I too am planning to order something from them - Tannin Aquatics - and I was wondering about the shipping cost ; could you please tell me how much did you pay ? 

Envoyé de mon SM-G935F en utilisant Tapatalk


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## Cayambe (2 Mar 2017)

I think I paid 42usd.. Which is almost the third of the total price (to Denmark). If I added alittle bit more it would be 60usd. So I guess its about maxing out the shipping cost. 

It did arrive within 3 days though!


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## AverageWhiteBloke (2 Mar 2017)

Just a suggestion. Seems to me like you're longing to have a piece of your fond memories of the Amazon in your living room, which I totally get but the problem is that you want some plants and a true biotope of the river wouldn't really have any or many. Looking at that last picture you posted why don't you revert back to shoreline like that picture and have one end of the tank with plants that are in amongst the roots and the remaining 2/3rd just roots. Then you get some interesting plants to look at and keep true to your initial goal. You still get your biotope but the setting for it is just when the river level is rising and some plants are under water.

If you like the tank would be a cross section of forest meeting river.



cross by AWB70, on Flickr

I get the feeling on this project if there was one thing not right about it it would drive you nuts. Try and stick with what you want. I'm thinking 1/3rd roots and plants fading into 1/3rd just roots and then a 1/3 open sandy area.

Could work.


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## Cayambe (2 Mar 2017)

That's not a bad idea at all. It will be a compromise of sorts thats for sure, I'm not trying to win any competitions, I just want to get close to that "black water" feel, within reason. The fading plants, from shoreline to sand, is something I will look at. Have spent all day trying to figure out how to place the roots. Hopefully it will all fall into place when the aquarium arrives


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## AverageWhiteBloke (2 Mar 2017)

dw1305 said:


> I should put the disclaimer that I'm the author of the PlecoPlanet article first,



Never ceases to amaze  As I was reading through this I thought this is right up Darrel's street he won't be far away and bang. There he is writing books on the subject. Probably the only man I know who has access to the £££££'s equipment we all dream of which would answer so many questions but doesn't bother with them preferring to put things in tanks he finds in the garden and will openly encourage algae because he find algae more interesting than the plants. You couldn't make it up


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## AverageWhiteBloke (2 Mar 2017)

Cayambe said:


> It will be a compromise of sorts thats for sure



No compromise here brother. It is what it is, that's what the Amazon (I'm guessing) would look like as the river levels were rising then you've stayed true to your goal. Just need to get the marginal plants and the fish right and you're there. Other than obviously the African wood  but hey, some people can't see the wood for the trees *ahem I'm here all week, tickets available at the bar 

Linking the Tannin aquatics site has got my juices flowing now. I'm looking at 300x300 empty cube in among my huge collection of redundant fish keeping equipment and thinking of downloading Walsted for my ereader and grabbing a bag of John Innings out my shed.


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## dw1305 (2 Mar 2017)

Hi all, 





AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Probably the only man I know who has access to the £££££'s equipment we all dream of which would answer so many questions but doesn't bother with them preferring to put things in tanks he finds in the garden and will openly encourage algae because he find algae more interesting than the plants. You couldn't make it up


I'm just really lazy and tight-fisted.

Somebody was asking the other day about the kit in the lab. I'll take some photos and put them up. 

cheers Darrel


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## AverageWhiteBloke (2 Mar 2017)

Or what about I pop round with a sample of my water. I'll bring my dip tests with me and we'll play guess the margin of error. I actually saw something on the internet the other day where they had compared LFS tests against pro equipment but it was for reef stuff. Same thing probably applies though, Ironically they actually weren't that far out more inconsistent which is much and the same thing. Will I get banned from the forum for saying they weren't that far out? 

Anyway, really interesting project this, I will be following. If the OP doesn't do it I am but obviously on a much,much smaller scale.


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## dw1305 (2 Mar 2017)

Hi all, 





AverageWhiteBloke said:


> I actually saw something on the internet the other day where they had compared LFS tests against pro equipment but it was for reef stuff. Same thing probably applies though, Ironically they actually weren't that far out more inconsistent which is much and the same thing. Will I get banned from the forum for saying they weren't that far out?


I would expect that would be the answer, particularly as some monovalent anions (like NO3-) are easier to test for salt water, because you have a known amount of Cl- ions (about 17ppt), and you can take this into account. 

It isn't that the values are always wrong, <"they are often right">, the problem is sorting out the "wrongs" from the "rights".





dw1305 said:


> If @alto tells me he had ~10ppm NO3 (ideally a mean and related confidence interval) I would be confident that he does.The problem comes because their readings may not be comparable with some-body else's 10ppm NO3, particularly if one person has high conductivity, alkaline water, and the other person has soft, acidic water.
> 
> If two people, with very different water parameters, have large healthy dark green Amazon Frogbit plants, I can tell both of them straight away that they have plenty of nitrogen available, what-ever the results of their test kit shows.





AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Looking at that last picture you posted why don't you revert back to shoreline like that picture and have one end of the tank with plants that are in amongst the roots and the remaining 2/3rd just roots.


 I don't know if the OP has seen Norwegian _Apistogramma_ enthusiast TomC's travelogue pages. They don't cover the Rio Negro (you can't collect fish in Brazil), but they show black-water streams in the Peruvian Amazon. 

<"Collecting in Río Tigre / Río Pucacuro 2010">

cheers Darrel


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## Cayambe (2 Mar 2017)

Im not sure where the roots are from actually. Its not malaysian, or asien. It looked to me like some hardwood from Africa. But then, it also looks a bit like the roots I have seen in the amazon. Anyway, my water definately aint from the Amazon, but you gotta draw the line somewhere!

That TomC looks really interesting, will read up on that.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (2 Mar 2017)

There's a saying in the construction industry I use all the time, "if it looks right, it is right"


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## Cayambe (3 Mar 2017)

The big day! And what a day..

Good and bad news.

The aquarium arrived in one piece, and with 4 people we managed to get in inside, which was, considering the massive 250kg weight, probably very fortunate. I  underestimated how heavy a tank this size would be. At one point one of the guys holding one of the ends, lost his strength and had to drop the cabinet. It smashed one of the corners. Its only cosmetic, and it didn't impact the weight bearing parts, though If you are anything like me, you can feel my pain oozing through your computer screen..

Having waited so long, and paid sooooooooo much, for this day to finally happen, that was very unfortunate.

But life ain't perfect right!?

Anyway, its there, its finally in its place!

Need to go shopping tomorrow for the final bits and pieces before I can do a water/level test. But so far so good!


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## sgdiscus (5 Mar 2017)

Cayambe said:


> The big day! And what a day..
> 
> Good and bad news.
> 
> ...


Mate, that's a proper tank!

Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk


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## Cayambe (28 Mar 2017)

Steep learning curve going on here. And I haven't even added water! Had to redo the fittings. Also I'm waiting for that new front plate to arrive. Should be soon now. Its very hard for me to do all this, without making scratches and dents to the glass and furniture. I'm too eager and too clumsy. Had to go for a run, after making a small scratch on glass.  The pain! Good lesson though, learning not to rush things, and accepting that nothing will ever be perfect.

Anyway, fittings are mostly done, and glued. (Second attempt. First one was all wrong). The lighting controller has been installed and updated with latest firmware. Added the 3 center driftwood pieces and most of the sand. Was worried about the weight of the bigger one, so added 2 supports (small 7x7cm slates). The bigger piece supports on 4 points, 2 of them takes most of the load. It probably won't matter much when its submerged in water. But it gave me a sleepless night.

I have also made the connection to my rainwater tank. Just need a few more bits for it to work. 

Will update soon.


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## nayr88 (29 Mar 2017)

This is going to be amazing!!!
Will be keeping an eye on this journal for sure


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## Cayambe (10 Apr 2017)

Update from day 1 through day 7!

I was able to use about 300L of the collected rainwater, and 3 days later, recycle it out into our kitchen garden, completing the circle rain/tank/garden, that has been one of my goals with the project, to make it somewhat more sustainable, and also get softer water. 300L is not enough to fill the entire tank, so I had to add tap water. What I will have to do is get a bigger rainwater container (1000L) and collect enough water to do these water changes. The current water change schedule is massive, 50% every 3 days, but when its cycled through I should only be using about 2-300L a week. If I can store 1000L, I should be able to do these water changes, even when it hasn't rained for a few weeks.

I'm pretty happy with the "Black Water" look I get when I look from the front of the tank. I have added some of the Tannin Aquatics botanicals, and done the planting. 

The Echinodorus Tennelus I decided didnt fit, and removed it again. Will add Sagittaria Subulata at the front instead, in front of the smaller driftwood piece.

Its not really an attempt at a "natural aquarium" planted tank setup, more like using some of the incredible inspiration I have gotten from this site, and use it in my biotope.

One really cool effect is the Limnobium Laevigatum gliding through the top of the water. Ill make a video of it. 

I added 20 amano shrimps. I could add more.. but its a compromise.. its not very biotope friendly. But I can't ignore the benefit they will give my setup. They are enjoying their space for sure! Water is at 25c right now. 

The rocks are just to hold down the driftwood, that wanted to float, should be gone soon. Also I added silicone to the whole footprint of the tank, so that when I drop a bucket of water, which will happen any day now, at least it wont go under the aquarium. 

Hope you enjoy the pics.


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## Eduard18 (10 Apr 2017)

Oh yeah ! Tannin aquatics


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## Cayambe (26 Jun 2018)

Thought I'd post an update 

Much has happened, since I steered more and more toward tannin stained water. In the end the only plant that worked to my satisfaction was the Brasilian Vesicularia Montagnei.

Current population:
4 L 091 (Rio Venturari)
4 L 075 (Amazon Basin)
6 L 201 (Rio Ventuari)
20 Corydoras Duplicareus (Upper rio negro)
200 Cardinal Tetras (Rio Negro/Orninoco, I added 100 and they didn't school. So I added another 100, and they started schooling)

I installed a Maxpect Gyre 250 to increase the flow/oxygenation. Its a monster, and I run it on only 10-20%.

In the end you could call it a "North West Amazon" bio. Or a mix of Orinocco Basin/Rio Negro. I'm happy with the result, and life is happy in the tank. I will start mixing in RO water this summer, and up my game a bit.

Here are the pics after 18 months after setup:














I'm working on a new 360L Rio Xingu setup, which I will post about shortly. Also did a Nano Borneo "bio" with 6 Brachygobius Xanthozonus. Bonus pics:


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## AverageWhiteBloke (26 Jun 2018)

Did you take the big stone out or am I looking at it from another side? I liked the big stone.


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## Cayambe (26 Jun 2018)

Yea, I took it out. Used it to hold down the root.


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## gltjc (2 Jul 2018)

Love your big tank! I like that you have started with a group of fish species that you wanted to keep and have looked to build a both natural and beautiful environment for them. Exactly what I have tried to do. I just wish I had your discipline in avoiding too many plant species and in stopping adding more fish species!


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## doylecolmdoyle (3 Jul 2018)

The big tank looks really good with just the moss! Often less is more!


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## TBRO (6 Jul 2018)

Great tank! The moss and lights make a very dramatic effect.

How is the sand to keep clean? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## grathod (11 Jul 2018)

Really liking the the natural tannin look, I've been wanting Altum Angels for a long time and your setup looks ideal for them. Are you planning any such fish for your setup?


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## Edvet (11 Jul 2018)

Altum angels are very good at snacking on tetra's, trust me, i know



36272522_00004254 by Ed Prust, on Flickr


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## grathod (11 Jul 2018)

Good point, I've no first hand experience with them so any info is great. I am planning a big tank for Altums but first i need to have a massive garage sale to rid all stuff i have hoarded over the years to fund the "big one". Cheers for the heads up on the Altums voracity Edvert.


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## FJK_12 (11 Jul 2018)

Angels look stunning


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