# Flow in planted tanks



## Edvet (15 Jan 2019)

I know about the flow advices we give, but when looking at the green aqua vid i noticed flow is low in large parts of the tanks. We say: have all plants gently blowing in the flow, but it looks like there is less movement in these tanks.
( WARNING: very healthy tanks!!. Could cause large bouts of jealousy)


 Could this be shape dependant? There is a gentle flow in the lower parts, hard to see, but in relation to the shape of the scape enough to keep it healthy.
Giving advice which works for all is a rough measure and misses on the safe side. But could we learn from this and tailor our advice towards flow?


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## Ady34 (15 Jan 2019)

When you look at Amanos tanks there wasn’t a huge amount of flow. These are display tanks and will get daily attention but quite how the plants are fed I’m unsure. It makes you wonder sometimes 
Likely the stems feed from the top exposed leaves where food is more available.


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## zozo (15 Jan 2019)

Always thought that 10 x is a tad much for the average aqaurium.. Even doubt if most fish realy like it, living 24/7 in huricane Chatrina..

It likely is Estimated Index Scheme for flow vs plants, just have more than enough than you never fall short. 

(Benefit of) Doubt in this hobby only can come with experience and for most of us experience doesn't run that a fast pace with averagely 1 tank every few years. Than best don't experiment to much and keep on running with general prooven consensus for the first decade. Than the ones that do not make it past this first decade, actualy do not have so much experience.



> Could this be shape dependant?


Absolutely, look up Aerodynamics, for example <Turbulence>.. Same goes on in our tanks since water is air only 10 x thicker..


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## foxfish (15 Jan 2019)

I think 10 x rule is quite a modern approach, coming into play with forums and ideas put across by influential individuals!  
Certainly before I joined this forum about 10 years back, I never used strong flow.
In fact it was the exact opposite!
That is not to say that the 10 x approach it not a good one but there are other successful methods too.

I wish I had some photos of my first C02 injected tank, that was back in 1980. 
It was a Dutch Style, over planted with stems and swords but what a superb algae free display it was!
In fact, my tank was featured in a top magazine of the area ! 

My point is though.. the tank was based on zero surface movement, low flow and a internal ladder diffuser.
Lighting was 4 x T8s. 10 hours a day.
I just followed the method of the day, that was useing rain water and daily ferts, 20% water change as regular as rain water supply would allow. (Once or twice a week on average)
The only pump in the 40 gallon tank was the one powering the C02 ladder, I think around 100 gph


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## Tim Harrison (15 Jan 2019)

I know what you mean @foxfish, it was the same for me, albeit low energy. First off I had UG filters powered by Whisper pumps, alter that I used a small HOB and eventually a canister filter. But all massively underpowered compared to the size of the tank and especially by todays standards. And I had massively dense plant growth mainly of Vallis, Swords, Crypts and Aponogetons, growing under a couple of T12 bulbs, and no algae that I can remember.

However, some of the tanks in the GA video above appear to be lacking outflow lily pipes, so maybe they were removed for cleaning as part of the maintenance check. I can't imagine that the lack of flow in the first tank, for instance, is usual.


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## Edvet (15 Jan 2019)

foxfish said:


> 4 x T8s.


Well, that's a lot less then modern LED's
When they started to exchange T8's with T5's with reflectors the algae came up big time, before that if you fed the plants it was almost alway good.


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## zozo (15 Jan 2019)

Tim Harrison said:


> First off I had UG filters powered by Whisper pumps,



These could very well have the best flow distribution of all low turn over filtering. SInce it is very liniear straight down and up. In some cases maybe beter flow distribution than some high turn over tanks with conventional canister filtering.  In an imaginetive theory, i never used them. Simply looking at the construction it can be more evenly devided than this..


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## Tim Harrison (15 Jan 2019)

I used a very similar interlocking plate system with outflows like these. The outflows were telescopic and could be adjusted up and down, they were also directional like the ones below.




Maybe one of us should conduct an experiment and scape the old way...just to make sure we're not getting overly nostalgic and viewing the world through rose tinted glasses


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## zozo (15 Jan 2019)

Tim Harrison said:


> I used a very similar interlocking plate system with outflows like these. The outflows were telescopic and could be adjusted up and down, they were also directional like the ones below.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've thought about it, i have one major flaw, humming airpumps and bubbling water drive me nuts..  That was the reason i never used one..


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## zozo (15 Jan 2019)

But take a look at this..  (Thanks to @Edvet )


He implements it oversized in organic pools.. Look at the rest of his videos for the stunning results.. It keeps a 10.000 litre pond prestine clear with only 35 watt power consumption with air pumps only.. Fenomenal!. Simply under gravel filtering.. 

He had the water company guy for visit to check on the water.. The guy said the pond is healthier than what comes from the tap..


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## Tim Harrison (15 Jan 2019)

You Should have tried the Whisper pumps...they were whisper quiet...NOT 
The height of modern technology way back in the 1980s


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## Tim Harrison (15 Jan 2019)

zozo said:


> But take a look at this..  (Thanks to @Edvet )
> 
> 
> He implements it oversized in organic pools.. Look at the rest of his videos for the stunning results.. It keeps a 10.000 litre pond prestine clear with only 35 watt power consumption with air pumps only.. Fenomenal!. Simply under gravel filtering..
> ...



Very informative, and the guy's a comedy genius as well...and has great taste in underpants


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## zozo (15 Jan 2019)

Tim Harrison said:


> Very informative, and the guy's a comedy genius as well...and has great taste in underpants


Indeed... I couldn't stop watching, i undulged all his videos in one go LMAO..


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## Tim Harrison (15 Jan 2019)

I'm going to watch them all later  I've always wanted a natural swimming pool...


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## Oldguy (15 Jan 2019)

foxfish said:


> rain water and daily ferts,


Do you recall what the pH of this tank was. Just wondering where on the CO2/bicarbonate vs pH graph you were.


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## foxfish (15 Jan 2019)

Well I had a drop checker that was the right colour but I don’t remember what the actual PH was.
The system was Dupla and came with lots of indervidual bottles of ferts that had to be fed in a certain order.

Regards the  undergravel filter, one of the first tanks I featured  on this forum had a reverse flow UG filter that I feed the C02 into.
I thought it would offer the ultimate flow solution and it did work, although I don’t think anyone else was impressed with my effort!
The tread is definitely on here somewhere......


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## zozo (15 Jan 2019)

foxfish said:


> although I don’t think anyone else was impressed with my effort!



That's the burden of the simplest, cheapest and most effective solutions.. People in general like to think overcomplicated.. It's simular to the pond industry, simply planted helophyte filters are unbeatable but again to simple and to cheap. It's a designer yupie society running on dollars, in general consensus it can't be good if you don't spend a ton of money on it... I got the best and the best needs to cost the most. Thus if it's gona cost it must be good..


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## foxfish (15 Jan 2019)

I found this one https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/disaster-or-a-new-dawn.15812/ there is a vid on the bottom of page one too.
And this one https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/undergravel-filters.9061/


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## Tim Harrison (15 Jan 2019)

zozo said:


> general consensus it can't be good if you don't spend a ton of money on it.


That's a good point. I made a similar one when I first joined the forum regarding high-energy vs low-energy. It read a bit like a rant, it's rather embarrassing now 
But there isn't any reason why it can't be cheap and effective and aesthetically okay too.



foxfish said:


> I found this one https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/disaster-or-a-new-dawn.15812/ there is a vid on the bottom of page one too.
> And this one https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/undergravel-filters.9061/


They were both a bit before my time, so I don't think I've seen them before. It obviously worked your scape looked very healthy.


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## sparkyweasel (15 Jan 2019)

Until two years ago, when I moved house, I was still using incandescent light bulbs in some of my tanks. They still worked OK.


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## Daveslaney (15 Jan 2019)

I think most of the filters they use in the larger tanks they have at least 1 of the Eheim 2080s. These have 2 inlets and 1 outlet and flow around 1700ltrs per hour.
So the flow rate should be quite substantial I would think.


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## foxfish (19 Jan 2019)

I was just thinking about another aspect of the Dupla system ( and others of the time) that revolved around washing the filter sponges on a two week rota. 
In your external on internal filter there would be three, course filter sponges, it was recommended or even “important” to wash the bottom one every two weeks and replace it onto the top of the stack.
The more I think about those early days, the more I remember how much you had to do, and if you did not keep some sort of record ... just how easy it was to get muddled up with the system.!

It is good to reminisce with a whiskey and ginger in your hand but, I seem to remember how proud I was to see my plants flourishing and also how hard it was to find fresh rain water in the summer!


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (28 Jan 2019)

It is amazing how the hobby has changed over the years, even to a relative newcomer looming back... I've had success with tanks with absolutely no flow (with no co2). Must admit that I just don't subscribe to the costs associated with the high end of the hobby. I'm perfectly happy with the range of plants that don't need co2 (or as much maintenance) don't need low iron glass etc etc, though I can't deny these tanks look stunning!! Every time you see a video by a YouTuber doing a cheap setup there is a mix of awe and amazement, then the doubters come along... it is possible to have low tech, low cost beautiful tanks believe me!





Check out www.ScapeEasy.co.uk


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## Zeus. (28 Jan 2019)

Cant believe I missed this thread  But have been really busy TBH

Having been to GA I was blown away at how good the tanks was with massive amounts of light with the non dimable ADA RGB solars too and the *flow was very low* IMO. it was pretty mind blowing. I was looking very close not at a picture/vid but up close so there was no hiding it.
Few things stood out after a long chat with the Guys
Temp - all tanks was at* 22 degrees
Intense light
8Hr photoperiod*
All the tanks had *UV filters* on them
*Algae free* or very very hard to find.
No tank older than 12 months.
*All the tanks are stunning* as is there shop.
They *dont clean there filters that often* - think it was about once every three months

We do bang on about the x10 rule for tank turnover ( which I believe is the right place to start) but as Alto has said a few times his tanks are not x10 more like x5 and he has no issues.


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## Edvet (28 Jan 2019)

Does anyone know wether they start with more flow and taper down when the tank is growing more solid?


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## Zeus. (28 Jan 2019)

As far as I am aware its them same from start to present day, or they never said otherwise


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## Onoma1 (28 Jan 2019)

Zeus. said:


> Cant believe I missed this thread  But have been really busy TBH
> 
> Having been to GA I was blown away at how good the tanks was with massive amounts of light with the non dimable ADA RGB solars too and the *flow was very low* IMO. it was pretty mind blowing. I was looking very close not at a picture/vid but up close so there was no hiding it.
> Few things stood out after a long chat with the Guys
> ...



 One thing I took from them (and would add the list) was the use of a substantial and mixed 'clean up crew' comprised of shrimp, snails and ottos and a twinstar in each tank.  Also someone cleaning the tanks every day could help


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## Zeus. (29 Jan 2019)

Onoma1 said:


> One thing I took from them (and would add the list) was the use of a substantial and mixed 'clean up crew' comprised of shrimp, snails and ottos and a twinstar in each tank



Yes  At the time I went to GA I did have a pest snail problem and was testing some treatments on smaller tank, but after seeing the tanks at GA and there snails I decided to accept the pest snails and introduced some ramshorn snails as well, I did already have about 50+ amanos and some RCS, the RCS are incresing in number by the month but did take some time to get going, took months for the RCS to get young ones but spot them all over the tank now and get plenty out of the canister when cleaning it as well.

At present the algae in my tank is less than its been for a long time and the light more intense than its ever been, Plus I have stopped LCO dosing as some plants just wasnt doing very well, Been about a month since I stopped the LCO but I do haver the Maxspect Gryes which have massive flow output which I have been slowly increasing their output too.


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## Parablennius (29 Jan 2019)

IIRC back in the 70's we used to lay the ( seperate ) heater horizontally along the rear face just above the substrate and used the rising warmer water. I got the impression that convection was the only movement of water?


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## Edvet (29 Jan 2019)

I always used (Eheim) cannister filters until i made a sump.


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