# Newly Acquired Fish Dying - Advice Appreciated



## mark4785 (14 Oct 2012)

This weekend I purchased 5 Black Neon Tetras for a fully cycled open-top aquarium. Before going to purchase the fish I double checked that the ammonia, nitrite, PH and nitrate levels and temperature were all at suitable levels; they were all within range, as can be seen below:

Ammonia: 0 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 15 ppm
PH: 7.2
Temperature: 27 degrees C

I introduced the fish to the aquarium at 2:30pm and by 7:00pm, two of them had died and the rest were gasping for oxygen at the water surface. I didn't think that I had any sufficient reason to check the water o2 levels since the water's surface is rippling quite a bit allowing oxygen to enter the water column. In addition, although this aquarium will be a planted tank at some point in the future, there is no co2 injection at this point so this couldn't be the source of low oxygen diffusion. At 7:30pm I checked the o2 levels using a basic test kit and got a o2 reading of between 1-2 mg/l. In contrast, my established planted aquarium had a o2 reading of 8 mg/l.

I am really confused and upset that I've lost two of these fish and would therefore appreciate it if anybody has any explanation as to why oxygen levels in this newly cycled aquarium are horrendously low.

Note: the remaining 3 black neon tetras have been transferred to my planted aquarium and are not gasping/dying.


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## John S (14 Oct 2012)

How old is the new tank and how did you cycle it?


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## mark4785 (14 Oct 2012)

davem said:
			
		

> How old is the new tank and how did you cycle it?



It has been running for 3 months.

I cycled it with pure ammonia; I used the fishforums.net ammonia dosage calculator to work out a recommended ammonia dose to cycle the aquarium which has a 120 litre body of water. It recommended adding 4ml of ammonia every 12 hours until both the ammonia and nitrite parameters reduce to 0 ppm every 12 hours. For 2 weeks now, ammonia and nitrite levels have reduced to 0ppm 12 hours after ammonia dosing.


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## Matt Warner (14 Oct 2012)

It could be that your test kits are giving an inaccurate reading and that you do still have ammonia and nitrite. Never seen the point in fishless cycling in a planted tank before. Just add loads of fast growing plants and then add your fish a week later. I've never had a problem with this method.
Cheers


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## mark4785 (14 Oct 2012)

Matty1983 said:
			
		

> It could be that your test kits are giving an inaccurate reading and that you do still have ammonia and nitrite. Never seen the point in fishless cycling in a planted tank before. Just add loads of fast growing plants and then add your fish a week later. I've never had a problem with this method.
> Cheers



In my opinion, I think the test kits I use are very accurate as ammonia readings will show when I add ammonia and the nitrite test did show levels of nitrite 1 week into the fishless cycle which is quite conventional. As for the o2 test that I did, the low 1-2 mg/l level does explain why they were gasping. I'm not a huge fan of test kits but they seem to be giving out logical answers.


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## Matt Warner (14 Oct 2012)

It could be that the water is low in oxygen then as you say. This is probably why the fish are gasping at the surface. The only thing I can think is that you've built up such a large population of bacteria that they are using a lot of the oxygen out of the water. I would do a large water change to replace the oxygen and have a strong surface ripple and run an airstone.


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## mark4785 (14 Oct 2012)

Matty1983 said:
			
		

> It could be that the water is low in oxygen then as you say. This is probably why the fish are gasping at the surface. The only thing I can think is that you've built up such a large population of bacteria that they are using a lot of the oxygen out of the water. I would do a large water change to replace the oxygen and have a strong surface ripple and run an airstone.



That was my theory too, but a guy helping me with this issue on a support forum seems to think that the gasping may be in response to a PH shock. Bicarbonate of soda is a common thing to use during cycling to up the PH to 8.4 as it is known that this, along with a temperature of 28 degrees C, speeds up the nitrogen cycle. I've been using this substance throughout the cycling period and both me and him seem to think some of it has become trapped in my sand substrate.

Prior to adding the fish, I did a 100% water change and this disturbed the sand and whatever was stuck in it. It may be that bicarbonate of soda has leached out although this doesn't explain why the PH is 7.2.


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## Antipofish (14 Oct 2012)

Its unlikely to be pH shock.  Assuming you acclimatised them properly and didnt just dump them in.  Whats your protocol for introducing new fish ?  Also what are the dimensions of the tank ?  What other fish and how many do you have in there already ?


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## mark4785 (15 Oct 2012)

Antipofish said:
			
		

> Its unlikely to be pH shock.  Assuming you acclimatised them properly and didnt just dump them in.  Whats your protocol for introducing new fish ?  Also what are the dimensions of the tank ?  What other fish and how many do you have in there already ?



When introducing new fish I acclimatise them for 30 minutes as I did today. The temperature and PH of the tank water and bag of water in which the fish are in (supplied by LFS) are consistent with one another by the end of the 30 minute period.

I don't know the dimensions but I know it holds 120 litres of water.

The tank was empty prior to placing the above mentioned fish in. I never introduce a huge bio-load into a newly established aquarium as I don't think its good practise. I was going to add more Tetras in a graduated fashion which I think is more safe.


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## nry (15 Oct 2012)

27c seems warm, not sure if it would affect the fish, but I would have presumed 23c or so would be better for tetra?


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## NatureBoy (15 Oct 2012)

Do as Matty1983 says, with the emphasis on oxygenating the water as much as possible - air pumped into a powerhead / koralia would be great, ensuring a nice fine mixing of air bubbles with the water + surface turbulence with the 'bubbling'. It's the sound you hear in an old school LFS   

Without plants, maximising the oxygen available by mechanical means is an essential aspect to ensure fish health (even useful in a planted tank during night, or if you want higher CO2 during the day and still have happy fish). Cycling is as much about maintaining high oxygen as it is cultivating bacteria, the two go hand in hand. It's the 'biological oxygen demand' chestnut - the oxidisation of ammonia to  nitrate severely depletes oxygen, so you need to provide more for any other occupants. You've measured the level yourself, and your hunch is that it's very low, hence take the measures suggested to get it to 8mg/l as per the other tank, with or without any other theories you wish to explore.


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## dw1305 (16 Oct 2012)

Hi all,


> Darrel, I think if you had gone and said "I told you so" that would have been both disrespectful to me and also indicative that you intend to turn this thread into an ego-war without it having even took of the ground. I'm not sure of your age, but come on, that is fundamentally pathetic for an adult community.


Mark, just so we have no misunderstanding, as you wish I will not post again on any of your threads. But before I go I do have a few comments to make. 

*I don't understand why you ask for advice, you have repeatedly ignored the advice given to you and now it has killed your fish, but you still continue with the same mantra*. 


> The community of fishforums.net have helped me to establish that the route cause of the deaths were caused by lack of o2 caused by a bacterium growth.


No they haven't, no it wasn't. 


> Indeed the o2 test kit that I have confirmed the reason for the lack of o2 but I was having difficultly realising the cause of the low o2.


Ahhhhhh. it is even more difficult to test for dissolved oxygen than it is ammonia or nitrate.


> The problem could not have stemmed from an ammonia/nitrite problem as the Black neon tetras were placed into the aquarium after having done a 100% W/C.


Ammonia diffuses from the gills of the fish all the time, you have put the fish into a system with no biological filtration capacity, ammonia levels of built up and killed your fish.* Your lack of biological filtration is because you have been adding toxic levels of ammonia to your tank.*


> I'm not sure why you have listed 4 of my previous threads (they certainly have no content within them relating to fishless cycling) other than to try and bolster your view that how I and many others from other online communities conduct their business is different to yours, hence the word "dispiritingly" that you have used in your description of those threads. I think thats incredibly arrogant of you, especially given the fact that every one of those threads were a request for advise. I would recommend to any people viewing this thread to keep an open mind in their determination of how to set-up a planted aquarium.


Mark, have you re-read the threads? they are entirely relevant. 


> The pure ammonia fishless cycle is highly successful and accepted right across the board.


No it isn't, it is a risky process that is always likely to fail and totally inappropriate for planted tanks.


> I think thats incredibly arrogant of you, especially given the fact that every one of those threads were a request for advise.


Mark you requested advice, I and various other members of this forum ceg, BigTom, PlantBrain (who are much more skilled and successful fish keeper than I am) have taken the time to offer the best advice we can, which you have repeatedly ignored it.


> I would recommend to any people viewing this thread to keep an open mind in their determination of how to set-up a planted aquarium.


So would I, I would recommend that Mark and any one else interested in this thread, read/re-read "Best Way To Start A Planted Tank?" <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=18200> *from November 2011*,_ so a year older, a year wiser _ might be an apposite saying.
I've put a relevant bit in below, Mark's quotes from earlier in the thread are in green


> Hi all,
> We've been down this route before including recently in the "other" thread <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=17590&p=180865>, but
> 
> Pretty much every fish-orientated forum heavily pushes running a fishless cycle with pure ammonia (or BioMature) - I did this with my last tank.
> ...


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## jack-rythm (16 Oct 2012)

I know this is really not anything to do with me u guys but reading the last few posts referring to different posts etc is a really really good way for me to learn certain aspects.. so on that basis thanks  I have been curious with this issue for some time as I have just set up 3 new tanks and have been debating the whole cycle scenario and which way to go.

cheers boys,... in a strange way


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## mark4785 (25 Oct 2012)

> *I don't understand why you ask for advice, you have repeatedly ignored the advice given to you and now it has killed your fish, but you still continue with the same mantra*.



I ask for advice so that I can add to my knowledge base. I in turn try to do the same for other people. Only difference, though, I don't try to ram it down their throats.



> The community of fishforums.net have helped me to establish that the route cause of the deaths were caused by lack of o2 caused by a bacterium growth.





> No they haven't, no it wasn't.



I'm afraid they have. I know it's unfortunate for you but you just need to learn to deal with it. Its the most fitting explanation, backed up with objective evidence.

Your viewpoint, in stark contrast, is fuelled by over-inflated smug and vicious ego and has no basis. Anybody reading the claim "Mark killed his fish because he didn't follow my and the team of elite's advice" will know that!




> Ammonia diffuses from the gills of the fish all the time, you have put the fish into a system with no biological filtration capacity, ammonia levels of built up and killed your fish.* Your lack of biological filtration is because you have been adding toxic levels of ammonia to your tank.*



Thats absolute BS. You really do not have a clue as to the function and purpose of a fishless cycle do you? I'll give you a clue shall I? By the end of a fishless cycle, there is in existence of a colony of bacteria that reduce ammonia and nitrite levels. It's as simple as that!! I'm not sure what you've been reading but it sure is wrong to deduce that ammonia production from fish waste and gill expiration REMAINS in the water column AFTER a fishless cycle; truly the most absurd comment I've ever read concerning the cycle.




> Mark you requested advice, I and various other members of this forum ceg, BigTom, PlantBrain (who are much more skilled and successful fish keeper than I am) have taken the time to offer the best advice we can, which you have repeatedly ignored it.



I addressed this issue above. I consider advice but it's not my fault that I take it with a pinch of salt nor is my omission to follow your advice the cause of the deaths of the fish. Your making that claim with substance that is not applicable to the circumstances in which I introduced the fish to the problem-aquarium.

The real problem that is behind the death of the fish is a harmful bacteria growing in the filter system and water column that is visibly identifiable (it resembles floating skin) and which is sucking all of the o2 out of the water column.

*You can argue your hypothesis that I killed my fish by ammonia/nitrite poisoning to your blue in the face but it does not wash with a fish-keeper with 5 years experience of keeping healthy cold water and tropical fish. It's a real shame that yourself, with such intelligence and experience, have tuck to lashing out at me purely because I approach fish-keeping and tank preparation from a non-planted angle and in particularly, your doing it because you clearly know that the Ramirezi fish is prone to death prior to 3 years of age, the age at which they happen to die in my aquarium.*




> So would I, I would recommend that Mark and any one else interested in this thread, read/re-read "Best Way To Start A Planted Tank?" <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=18200>



Sorry but how can you say that when you make claims that there is no sufficiently biological capacity in an aquarium after conducting a fishless cycle? You couldn't possibly be anymore biased and incorrect.




> This is relevant to some degree for an un-planted tank, where all of the biological filtration, the process of converting NH3 - NO2 - NO3, is carried out in the filter media and the light is purely cosmetic, so that you can observe the fish. In this case, as well as ammonia, you need a lot of oxygen and a supply of carbonates. The idea is that the ammonia simulates a large fish load (ammonia continually diffuses out from the fishes gills into the tank water) and by maintaining high levels of ammonia over several weeks you can arrive at a cycled tank ready for a large fish load which you can (in fact need to) introduce in one big "hit".



Exactly correct. Again, you've referenced quotes within threads without a fitting agenda to the issue at hand here. I fully endorse the fishless cycling method.




> This is a better method than the "sacrificial fish" method that preceded it, but it isn't really relevant to us, our tanks don't accumulate NO3, quite the opposite the growing plants deplete it. We also have evidence that many plants preferentially take up NH3 and NO2, and that the nitrogen cycle in the planted aquarium is much more complex than in the un-planted tank. A tank with healthily growing plants and water movement for gas exchange has enormous potential for biological filtration.



I didn't sacrifice my fish. I don't know where you get your ideas from, I really don't!  .

As for the claim that "healthily growing plants have enormous potential for biological filtration", I do not refute this. I prefer to go down the fishless cycle route as it is just has efficacious as the former. I've done the latter many times with success, and in this recent fishless cycle, that was too a success that was negated by an O2 issue of which has been caused by a bacteria I cannot identify in the water column and filters.

* I think you ought to recognise that you too have not positively ID'd the issue and it's therefore very wrong for you to jump to conclusions, saying that an ammonia/nitrite spike was the definite cause of the death of the fish. I think it's fair to say that you have jumped to that conclusion because you do not have enough experience preparing aquariums by conducting fishless cycles and it's easier, for whatever reason, for you to blindly strike people down!*





> *plants are extremely effective at maintaining water quality, and this is true in almost any scenario*.


[/quote]

I would quit giving the impression that I refute this claim if I were you. You simply don't know how to address the question as to whether plants are effective, from the get-go, at maintaining water quality to a standard that allows the M.Ramirezi to thrive. Nor would I expect you to; the whole point of a PhpBB is to DISCUSS things, NOT come along and impose one's viewpoint has factual and binding on others.


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## mark4785 (25 Oct 2012)

jackrythm said:
			
		

> I know this is really not anything to do with me u guys but reading the last few posts referring to different posts etc is a really really good way for me to learn certain aspects.. so on that basis thanks  I have been curious with this issue for some time as I have just set up 3 new tanks and have been debating the whole cycle scenario and which way to go.
> 
> cheers boys,... in a strange way



Well I'm glad somebody has the ability to have an open mind on here!

I think it's time to celebrate.


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## mark4785 (25 Oct 2012)

NatureBoy said:
			
		

> Do as Matty1983 says, with the emphasis on oxygenating the water as much as possible - air pumped into a powerhead / koralia would be great, ensuring a nice fine mixing of air bubbles with the water + surface turbulence with the 'bubbling'. It's the sound you hear in an old school LFS
> 
> Without plants, maximising the oxygen available by mechanical means is an essential aspect to ensure fish health (even useful in a planted tank during night, or if you want higher CO2 during the day and still have happy fish). Cycling is as much about maintaining high oxygen as it is cultivating bacteria, the two go hand in hand. It's the 'biological oxygen demand' chestnut - the oxidisation of ammonia to  nitrate severely depletes oxygen, so you need to provide more for any other occupants. You've measured the level yourself, and your hunch is that it's very low, hence take the measures suggested to get it to 8mg/l as per the other tank, with or without any other theories you wish to explore.



With much respect, I'm not sure it is the 'biological oxygen demand' chest nut as the tank is running as a planted aquarium (no pure ammonia dosing; although this has NEVER caused o2 depletion to this extent before) yet the o2 levels remain between 2 and 5 ppm.

See this thread for more details: http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?/to ... try3440531


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## roadmaster (26 Oct 2012)

mark4785 said:
			
		

> This weekend I purchased 5 Black Neon Tetras for a fully cycled open-top aquarium. Before going to purchase the fish I double checked that the ammonia, nitrite, PH and nitrate levels and temperature were all at suitable levels; they were all within range, as can be seen below:
> 
> Ammonia: 0 ppm
> Nitrite: 0 ppm
> ...




Fishes I have kept, did /do poorly with O2 levels below 5mg/L
I am not surprised that the fishes were gasping, or that they perished with O2 level's posted.


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## roadmaster (26 Oct 2012)

mark4785 said:
			
		

> Antipofish said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




 Might consider drip acclimation,(easier on osmoregulatory function of fish) as this allow's water from tank to drip into bag, or bucket holding fish, assuming,,, 
you add a little water from the tank at four or five minute interval's over a longer period than 30 minutes.
Thirty minutes in my view,,you may as well just dump the fish from the bag into the tank.


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## roadmaster (26 Oct 2012)

mark4785 said:
			
		

> > *I don't understand why you ask for advice, you have repeatedly ignored the advice given to you and now it has killed your fish, but you still continue with the same mantra*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I would quit giving the impression that I refute this claim if I were you. You simply don't know how to address the question as to whether plants are effective, from the get-go, at maintaining water quality to a standard that allows the M.Ramirezi to thrive. Nor would I expect you to; the whole point of a PhpBB is to DISCUSS things, NOT come along and impose one's viewpoint has factual and binding on others.[/quote]


Have read through this nauseating thread ,and think it wise to re-think the posistion that fishless cycling is just as effective as planting the tank with loads of plant's from the outset.
With plant's,,,there is no daily dosing of ammonia(should be reduced by 1/2 after nitrites appear),no daily testing to record number's and plant's are ten times quicker at assimilating ammonia than healthy bacterial colony will ever be.
Whether one chooses to believe it or not, does not change the fact that this is so.
Only proves that some are more stubborn (kind as I can be).
If there is some mycobacterium,Iridovirus,loose in the tank,,, However it got there... I might consider scrapping the whole lot and starting anew. 
I have heard nothing in this thread but fact's ,and attempt's to help, being summarily dismissed at each opportunity.
Would/will, float my stick with the likes of those such as Darell, Tom, and other's here any day.


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## tim (26 Oct 2012)

Couple of questions if I may my local lfs always advises the fish less cycle but not once did they advise me to add ammonia so how would this work I have heard of them keeping customers waiting upto 4 months before stocking I don't think their intentions are bad they are just misguided better than the sacrificial fish IMO directed at mark why ask for advice when your mind seems pretty set mate personally I would not keep rams in anything other than a mature soft water aquarium due to the sensitive nature of this fish IMO down to the poor care of this fish from source it's far too colourful for its own good and prized by new and experienced fish keepers alike the most healthy specimens I've seen we're quite dull but raised by a local fish keeper to me in nothing other than a well planted tank and London tap water which is awful he admitted he'd been through more than a few pairs to raise fry mark I'm not trying to upset you but in my limited experience advice of the likes of darell big Tom and ceg is all that's kept me in the hobby


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## NatureBoy (30 Oct 2012)

You're the one with the dead fish mate, not Darrel. I'd be much more humble if I were in your shoes. I read Darrel's posts and see a guy who has a level of insight and understanding worthy of respect.  Ammonia/ammonium equilibria is a toxic risk, plain and simple, most go out of their way to keep levels as low and balanced as possible, this is the fundamental of fish keeping. I recommend you read "The Ecology of the Planted Aquarium" by Diana Walstead. She demonstrates through scientific studies that plants are great at taking up ammonia, but even she is respectful enough to its toxic nature that she stresses she would never actually add it directly to a tank due to it's toxicity, merely that the small amounts produced by the fish are removed before the fish are stressed. Those that add it as part of a fertilizing regime are either massively respectful to it's toxicity levels, have abundant plant growth, etc and dilute accordingly, or will invariably put a strain on fish health. For fertilizing Nitrogen stick with the nitrate salts, you can mix and match to achieve all sorts of N:K ratios, etc for anything else avoid if possible adding ammonia / ammonium. You've got more than one tank? take the filter media from the mature one and add to the new one, voila a "fishless cycle" done. I am writing this in case anyone else finds this thread, as you seem oblivious to advice.


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## mark4785 (30 Oct 2012)

NatureBoy said:
			
		

> You're the one with the dead fish mate, not Darrel. I'd be much more humble if I were in your shoes. I read Darrel's posts and see a guy who has a level of insight and understanding worthy of respect.  Ammonia/ammonium equilibria is a toxic risk, plain and simple, most go out of their way to keep levels as low and balanced as possible, this is the fundamental of fish keeping. I recommend you read "The Ecology of the Planted Aquarium" by Diana Walstead. She demonstrates through scientific studies that plants are great at taking up ammonia, but even she is respectful enough to its toxic nature that she stresses she would never actually add it directly to a tank due to it's toxicity, merely that the small amounts produced by the fish are removed before the fish are stressed. Those that add it as part of a fertilizing regime are either massively respectful to it's toxicity levels, have abundant plant growth, etc and dilute accordingly, or will invariably put a strain on fish health. For fertilizing Nitrogen stick with the nitrate salts, you can mix and match to achieve all sorts of N:K ratios, etc for anything else avoid if possible adding ammonia / ammonium. You've got more than one tank? take the filter media from the mature one and add to the new one, voila a "fishless cycle" done. I am writing this in case anyone else finds this thread, as you seem oblivious to advice.



An O2 issue caused their death Einstein.

No ammonia was in the tank on fish introduction. Note how I use the word FISHLESS cycle throughout this topic to allude to this fact, something you didn't bother to read.

Diana Walstead has her opinion (an opinion I happen to understand and support) and I and many others also have their opinions. It is my preference to do a fishless cycle because of it's huge benefits in removing ammonia and nitrite turbidity at it's conclusion.



> I am writing this in case anyone else finds this thread, as you seem oblivious to advice



I do not have any obligation morally or under the law to follow anybodies advice. There is very clear difference between not being able to read advise and respectfully choosing to following it or not. The notion that you give is that of "follow my and others advise or else" which is pathetic. You should be thoroughly embarrassed of yourself.


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## Matt Warner (30 Oct 2012)

The fishless cycle has always seemed a bit overly cautious to me anyway. It's a lot of needless faffing with ammonia and inaccurate test kits. As long as you stock slowly with small fish and add loads of fast growing stem plants from day one there shouldn't be a problem. You are adding so much ammonia that you are creating a bacterial colony which is far too big than what is required. So when you stop the cycle a lot of the bacteria isn't needed so it dies off which in turn creates pollution in the tank. Pure ammonia was never designed for aquariums. Fish and healthy plants are!


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (31 Oct 2012)

Why ask for advice then have an argument with people who have taken the time and effort to reply.

You did this last time you posted a topic, a lot of very educated people offered up solutions and You ignored them all.


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## NatureBoy (31 Oct 2012)

I am thoroughly embarrassed, don't get me wrong...but like I say, I'm only contributing to this thread to emphasise the down side of playing around with ammonia.


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## REDSTEVEO (31 Oct 2012)

Mark,

I have just picked up on this thread. I am not a fan of a fish less cycle or starting any tank off without adding plants, and I would never go down the ammonia dosing route I think this is totally unnecessary, *BUT* that is just my opinion, which is the point I am going to make here.

When I first started using the UKAPS forum by way of introducing myself I posted a summary of my experiences to date with planted tanks, breeding discus and so on. One or two people disagreed with some of my suggestions and recommendations and posted their reasons for disagreeing. Yes I did take umbrage at first but soon came to realise that the ultimate aim of everyone on here is to help each other. 

Yes we do get frustrated when people ask for advice and then either choose to ignore it or disagree with it. You look at the amount of posts there are on this forum about algae issues from new members (and some not so new) and yet if you take the time to read through the relevant subject forum the questions have all been asked before and the answers are all there if you take the time to read them.

The thing that has upset me after reading your posts, are not that you have a different point of view or opinion, but the way in which you express those views by calling people names *"An O2 issue caused their death Einstein.*

This is the kind of aggressive behavior which we should be avoiding as it brings no positive result and just breeds bad feeling, the kind that would make people think twice about posting or responding with advice in case they too got a load of abuse.

I would reconsider your responses and think twice before hitting the submit button in future, or if you must have an issue do it via pm and not on here for everyone to read, because I for one do not want to read it. 

You may take offence to anything I have written above which you are perfectly within your rights to do so, if so please pm me and we can discuss it between us without getting into a public slanging match. 

I hope that the moderators are taking notes!

Best regards,

Steve


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## ceg4048 (31 Oct 2012)

I'm closing this thread for exactly the reasons eloquently summarized by Steve and others. The OP is encouraged to seek advice from other sources consistent with his views, in lieu of insulting the individuals here who have been kind enough to offer their time and assistance.

Cheers,


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