# Drop Checker takes forever to turn lime green



## hongsit (9 Nov 2019)

Hi, I have a fairly new (2months) set up, Aquascaper 600  (100l) tank with Tropica soil and fairly well
Planted.  

I have a pressurise CO2 system with dual stage regulator from Co2art with an in-line diffuser again from Co2art.

Filter is Biomaster Thermo 350 rated at 1250lph (I think), with glass lily pipes inlet and outlet position on front right of the tank.

Co2 drop checker is bottom front left side of the tank directly opposite the outlet.

My Co2 comes on at 2am in the morning and at lights on at 1pm the drop checker is dark green!  My bubble rate is high, prob 6bps.  I can see the mist coming out of the outlet and see the fine bubbles being push around all over the tank.  

I have an additional power head at the rear left of the tank providing a circular flow around the tank.  I’m pretty sure flow and distribution is not an issue.

I’ve checked for leaks and as far as I’m aware there are none.

I’ve checked the PH with a pen and it shows around 7.3 which aligns with the colour of the drop checker.

I live in south London and water is hard, tank water is KH of 6degrees and PH around 7.6, 7.7 before Co2 switches on.  

KH out of the tap is around 9 and PH is around 7.9.  I assume Tropica soil substrate softens the water a bit.

So, how can this be, 10hrs of pumping Co2 at 6bps (way too fast to count) so could be more and drop checker still dark green at 1pm??

Fish all fine and showing no signs of discomfort.

So if it’s not a leak, what else can this be?

I’m running out of ideas, is it just the water chemistry in my area that’s just causing causing a low amount of co2 to be dissolved in the water. 

Water out of the tap is high is nitrate and phosphate.  

Do I just accept the fact that it takes this long and in my case I should just leave co2 on 24/7?  

I’ll try switching over to in tank diffuser later on and see if that’s better but would appreciate some help/ideas.

Note, it will eventually turn lime green but it takes pretty much the 1/2 day by which time it’s time to switch the co2 off.

Thanks 














Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Zeus. (9 Nov 2019)

At any BPS rate you will reach a maximum pH drop and [CO2] its all dependant on tank turnover, surface agitation any skimmers and the uptake of the plants the number off plants and the intensity of the lights so no two tanks even the same size are the same. 

Heres my BPS rate on my 500l


BPS rates only give a an indication of CO2 being injected and the the amount - ie thay are scalar they have a direction but no size 

The DC is dark green which isnt bad by any means, the best thing to do IMO/IMO is to do a pH profile taking the pH from just before CO2 on every 30mins  till CO2 off, From this graph you will be able to see how long it takes to get your pH drop and if its stable from that point. 

Leaving it on 24/7 can be done with low BPS rates with corresponding low [CO2] but it is wasteful of CO2 and with higher [CO2] the [CO2] will increase at night as the plants dont uptake CO2 at night ( yes they give off CO2 at night but they also do that during the day also) and the [CO2] may become to high for the tanks inmates which may be fatal for them.

Do like that DW you have


----------



## hongsit (9 Nov 2019)

Thanks for the reply Zeus, currently it comes on at 2am so hard to take PH profile, but I guess I can take it from morning onwards.

Can having too much flow cause more co2 to gas off?  Im not talking about surface agitation but flow in general.  I’m wondering if my extra power head is causing issues.  I’ve switched it off for an hr or so and noticed a slight drop in PH, switched it back on, went out for a couple of hrs and noticed no change.  

I may switch it off overnight, leave everything else as is and see if there is an improvement.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Zeus. (9 Nov 2019)

It normally takes 2-3hours to get the pH drop and most folk have the CO2 coming on 2-3hrs before lights on.

Fine tunning CO2 by D Wong is a great read also

His Vid below explains why good surface agitation is good.



But having good flow is the tank is the key to stable [CO2] and in the words of @ceg4048 our CO2 'Guru' is 'Flow is King in the CO2 injected tank'


----------



## Jayefc1 (9 Nov 2019)

What temp is your tank running at as it is recommended for best co2 to disolve at 22 degrees i think inline defuser do take longer to get the ph drop and the dc green but 11hrs is a long time i also had to have the psi at 50 on the reg to get the new co2art inline defuser to get it coming through better just a couple of ideas to think about
Cheers
Jay
Ps nice tank


----------



## hongsit (9 Nov 2019)

Hi, my tank temp is at 23 - 24 degrees.  I think my psi is at 40psi, don’t think I can get it higher than that, the working pressure dial is fully open.

I’ll have a read of the links provided, just did a water change and cleaned and refitted all the tubes and pipes.  Will see how tomorrow goes.  It was light green at 6pm, but only just.

Thanks again


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Andrew Butler (10 Nov 2019)

Something which just cropped into my head was to ask which side of the filter do you have the diffuser on - flow or return?  *just to clarify flow is water from the aquarium to the filter and return is water on the way back to the aquarium. Although I'm sure that wouldn't make that big of a difference.
I've read that the filter skimmer type inlets are not ideal for CO2 injected aquariums although I've never experience that problem myself.
Can I ask why did you opt for the extra powerhead?
Maybe worth having a play around with your return lily pipe as it looks to be creating a small divot to the soil in the front left corner which will only get worse as time goes on assuming it's been caused by the filter - trust me! 
Most important is not to let it frustrate you as it then turns this hobby from something you enjoy into a stress which isn't good.


----------



## hongsit (10 Nov 2019)

Hi, the diffuser is on the return pipe.  

Initially I wasn’t seeing many of the mist around the rear right so added the extra power head, it’s an Ehiem surface skimmer upside down without the skimmer bit. 
It’s only rated at 350l/h but it improved the circular flow.  But to be honest I’m not sure I need it, so I’ve switched it off for the time being.

Yes I’m not sure if the lily pipe caused the divot or me waving my hand over the substrate whilst doing a water change.  I’ve fixed that now and see if it happens again.

If the flow did cause that divot, does that mean it’s too strong, or outlet positioned badly ie pointing slightly downwards?

Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hongsit (10 Nov 2019)

Just checked and the outlet flow is causing the divot so I had to had to straighten the pipe so the outlet is vertical, see picture.

So not much of a difference, midnight the PH was around 7.55 according to my pen and now it’s 7.3 and drop check is dark green, nearly 9hrs to drop 0.25.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hongsit (10 Nov 2019)

So I’ve raised the lily pipe to give me surface agitation and increased my co2, following the advice from the video above.  Following Zeus advice that I need to forget about what everyone else’s bps, I’ve ramped mine up to About 10bps.  Current ph is 7.25.  I’ll check readings in 30min and 1hr.


----------



## Jayefc1 (10 Nov 2019)

Its all trial and error mate you will get there did you turn your temp.down a little too 
Cheers
Jay


----------



## hongsit (10 Nov 2019)

Hiya, I left it around 23.5 but will try turning it down to 22 a bit later.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dolly Sprint 16v (10 Nov 2019)

hongsit said:


> I’ve checked for leaks and as far as I’m aware there are none.
> So, how can this be, 10hrs of pumping Co2 at 6bps (way too fast to count) so could be more and drop checker still dark green at 1pm??
> Do I just accept the fact that it takes this long and in my case I should just leave co2 on 24/7?
> Note, it will eventually turn lime green but it takes pretty much the 1/2 day by which time it’s time to switch the co2 off.
> ...



Soapy water is good for checking leaks on pipe joints and I would purchase some new drop checker solution.

Paul


----------



## hongsit (10 Nov 2019)

Dolly Sprint 16v said:


> Soapy water is good for checking leaks on pipe joints and I would purchase some new drop checker solution.
> 
> Paul



Just checked with soapy water again, no leaks spotted.
In terms of PH I’m using a PH pen and that pretty much correlates to the colour, obviously drop checker is delayed.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hongsit (10 Nov 2019)

So I’ve just measured the PH, 6.95 or there abouts, so about 7.35 to 6.95 in about 2hrs.  But the bubble counter is just a stream as I did increase it a bit when my initial ramp up resulted in no change between two readings after an initial ph drop.

Is this something I’ve just got to live with?  Or just a really paranoid thought, is my co2 gas a bit dodgy?  It’s from Adamsgas and it’s a replacement bottle after the initial one they delivered ran out in a few days (3.15kg) bottle.  




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Andrew Butler (10 Nov 2019)

hongsit said:


> Hi, the diffuser is on the return pipe.


That's a good start 


hongsit said:


> Just checked and the outlet flow is causing the divot so I had to had to straighten the pipe so the outlet is vertical


Again  - just see how it goes over the next few days/week. If you find you have the problem still then it's maybe time to think about how water is returned from your filter, spraybar is always a great way but a little unsightly maybe. As @Zeus. says completely ignore what anyone else says about BPS.


hongsit said:


> So I’ve just measured the PH, 6.95 or there abouts, so about 7.35 to 6.95 in about 2hrs. But the bubble counter is just a stream as I did increase it a bit when my initial ramp up resulted in no change between two readings after an initial ph drop.
> 
> Is this something I’ve just got to live with? Or just a really paranoid thought, is my co2 gas a bit dodgy? It’s from Adamsgas and it’s a replacement bottle after the initial one they delivered ran out in a few days (3.15kg) bottle.


All that said this doesn't sound right, using that much CO2 on a tank that size just can't be right. Unsure which diffuser you have but checking assembly etc is a good idea in my opinion and maybe the first thing to do before anything else, assuming your CO2 gas is correct.


----------



## Zeus. (10 Nov 2019)

hongsit said:


> ran out in a few days (3.15kg) bottle.





Think we can safely say you have leak somewhere, 

CO2 used data base gives a rough idea on how long it should last and its more than 3.5 days


----------



## hongsit (10 Nov 2019)

Thanks all for your replies.  My PH is now at 6.75, maybe a bit less, but that’s after 14hrs of injecting co2, starting position is around PH 7.6.  This is varying rates of co2 with the last 4-5 hrs with the bps as a stream.  Drop checker is light green with a yellow tint.

I’m start to suspect my co2 gas isn’t right as my diffuser is new and seems to be working with my tank water like 7up.

However, next two things to try is another bottle of co2, I’ll get a fire extinguisher from eBay and then see how that goes, I’ll then change to in tank diffuser. 

My filter is new and flow out of that seems ok, strong enough to make a divot in my soil at the opposite end.

Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hongsit (10 Nov 2019)

Zeus. said:


> Think we can safely say you have leak somewhere,
> 
> CO2 used data base gives a rough idea on how long it should last and its more than 3.5 days



Hi, yeah definitely, but they replaced that one, although they seemed to not believe me, so I’m hoping they supplied me with a genuine co2 bottle, I might be paranoid but that’s my current thinking at the moment.  My co2 setup seems to be more aligned to a 500l tank, not 100l 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## The Accidental Aquascaper (10 Nov 2019)

Have you done this?
I've got an identical set-up to you and had a leak between the bottle and reg. Easily fixed with PTFE tape.


----------



## hongsit (10 Nov 2019)

Yes, refitted everything twice, checked with soapy water, checked working and bottle pressure both stable and remained consistent.

This is either dodgy co2 gas or dodgy diffuser.

Will try in tank diffuser next and will purchase a new co2 (fire extinguisher) from eBay, could do with a spare anyway.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sparkyweasel (10 Nov 2019)

You might want to check your drop checker is working properly, eg by breathing into it. It's just possible that the solution wasn't made up correctly.


----------



## hongsit (10 Nov 2019)

I’ve changed drop checker before and the results are the same, it’s pre-made solution.  At the moment I’m taking readings with a PH meter and this reading correlates with the colour shown in the drop checker 1-2hrs afterwards.  The drop checker does go lime green, but ignoring that it has taken me 14hrs to get there with co2 on full blast.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Kalum (10 Nov 2019)

I'm running the same diffuser, same reg with a similar filter output on a 140L tank with a light green drop checker after 2/3 hours (while running a skimmer 24/7) and a 2kg fire extinguisher and it's lasted 2 months so far, while not to be taken as gospel as mentioned I'm running approx 6bps so there is definitely something that isn't right

If you're sure theres no leaks then it must be a dodgy co2 bottle or diffuser 

Sorry not anything you don't already know but I just thought it might help with a fairly close comparison to confirm that


----------



## hongsit (10 Nov 2019)

Kalum said:


> I'm running the same diffuser, same reg with a similar filter output on a 140L tank with a light green drop checker after 2/3 hours (while running a skimmer 24/7) and a 2kg fire extinguisher and it's lasted 2 months so far, while not to be taken as gospel as mentioned I'm running approx 6bps so there is definitely something that isn't right
> 
> If you're sure theres no leaks then it must be a dodgy co2 bottle or diffuser
> 
> Sorry not anything you don't already know but I just thought it might help with a fairly close comparison to confirm that



Thank you, it’s good to know.  I know every tank it’s different but having the bubble checker on at full and still taking 4 hrs to drop 0.4PH is not quite right.  I’ll see how the in take diffuser is tomorrow and if that’s the same, then all that’s left is the dodgy co2 tank.

If new co2 tank is the same then all I can say is that I have some very special water lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Kalum (10 Nov 2019)

Personally I judge mine by the fish tolerance and use the drop checker as a check/guide to see what I've set it at is correct and stable day to day

I only use a pH profile to gauge whether the co2 is stable during photo period and not to set my co2 input as this can vary depending on water values and too many variations that I can't micro manage

I've found different styles and sizes of drop checkers react differently as well as the obvious which is placement, I've started using the nano ones as they seem to react quicker and having 2 at different areas of the tank during setup is also handy to make sure its evenly distributed and you don't have any dead spots where you could be measuring low but other areas of the tank measure high, shouldn't be the case if you have good flow and the co2 is saturated but it can highlight it if it's not the case


----------



## hongsit (10 Nov 2019)

Agreed, fish was absolutely fine the whole time even at full blast.  A couple of amanos were flying around the tank around 6pm towards the end of the photo period, but none of the fish was bothered.  PH was measured around 6.7 by then and drop checker towards yellow. That’s a bit less than the 1 point drop so that correlates with the fish being ok.

So I got there in the end, just took 14hrs lol.

Flow should be fine, plants growing in but not dense enough to disrupt flow significantly.  The only potential dead spot is back right, which is why I added powerhead which is currently off anyway.  

At the moment light (twinstar 600s) is at 50% and this will remain at 50% until I’ve sorted out co2 issue.  Ferts is 10ml aquascaper liquid fertiliser. 

I’ll see how tomorrow goes and report back.  Quite intrigued to see if this in tank diffuser will significantly better or the same.

Thanks



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Kalum (10 Nov 2019)

You'll get there mate it can be frustrating but just change 1 thing at a time so you can understand the effects, it's too tempting to make multiple changes to try and fix asap (past experience myself) but you end up not knowing what is and isn't working or the cause of it not working more often than not


----------



## Andrew Butler (11 Nov 2019)

Kalum said:


> You'll get there mate it can be frustrating but just change 1 thing at a time so you can understand the effects, it's too tempting to make multiple changes to try and fix asap (past experience myself) but you end up not knowing what is and isn't working or the cause of it not working more often than not


I think this advice is well worth listening to @hongsit - far too easy to try everything in desperation.

If it was my aquarium I'd try changing the CO2 canister for a start especially if you want a spare anyway although no place should ever supply dodgy CO2 so if it turns out to be that I thing having a word with them would be a good idea. I actually buy a new fire extinguisher for less than £25 instead of a refill each time as it's less than half the price of me getting a refill anywhere close to me. If you go this route just remember to dial your CO2 back as if this is the fault you could soon find some very unhappy fish! Listed below currently for £22.99 and I vouch for this seller and product.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2KG-CO2-...447209?hash=item3fc9cabee9:g:WbgAAOSw-olaAroz

Keep the thread updated; let us know what you do and how it works out.



The Accidental Aquascaper said:


> I've got an identical set-up to you and had a leak between the bottle and reg. Easily fixed with PTFE tape


PTFE tape isn't great practice with this type of gas connection, it relies upon the seal/washer. Something else not widely accepted is overtightening this type of gas connection is often what does cause leaks so with a healthy washer just tighten it up until you feel resistance then give it another 1/4 turn - if you have leaks where the CO2 joins the regulator it's time for a new washer. 
PTFE will work with most of the other components on the regulator though so does have it's uses in the system.


----------



## hongsit (11 Nov 2019)

Thanks Andrew, yes sticking to changing one thing at a time where possible.  

I’ve stuck in an in tank diffuser and dialled the bps down to 6 for the reasons you stated above.  Still comes on at 2am and this morning at 8:15 it’s PH is 7.3 - 7.25.

So a slightly better drop than previously.  For over 6hrs of co2 I’m still not where I expect to be as the starting position is ph 7.6 - 7.7.  So im going to stick with this a bit more and increasing bps bit by bit until end of this week.  

Aim to buy the co2 in your link, been looking at that exact one yday so thanks for that, good to know it’s a reliable source.  Won’t be in until Friday now, got this week to try more stuff.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## The Accidental Aquascaper (11 Nov 2019)

Andrew Butler said:


> PTFE tape isn't great practice with this type of gas connection, it relies upon the seal/washer. Something else not widely accepted is overtightening this type of gas connection is often what does cause leaks so with a healthy washer just tighten it up until you feel resistance then give it another 1/4 turn - if you have leaks where the CO2 joins the regulator it's time for a new washer.
> PTFE will work with most of the other components on the regulator though so does have it's uses in the system.



Oh dear, this happened the first time I connected the reg and have just done it out of habit. I'll probably take it off tonight, thanks!
Just started my 3rd bottle, so 1.5kg bottles are lasting around 3 months for me.


----------



## hongsit (11 Nov 2019)

Out of interest am I right in saying even if I had leak before the bubble counter it shouldn’t effect the rest of the system apart from wasting gas??  I just need to pump more to get a particular bps?

A leak after the bubble counter is where symptoms like mine could appear?  Saying that I’ve checked the whole system and no leaks as far as I can tell.  




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Andrew Butler (11 Nov 2019)

hongsit said:


> Out of interest am I right in saying even if I had leak before the bubble counter it shouldn’t effect the rest of the system apart from wasting gas?


Yes and No - I'd tried to write something complicated which probably won't really help. Maybe give Karol from CO2art an email, he's really helpful with these things and often can point you in a good order to isolate problems. I think I'm right in saying there are places where the CO2 could escape between the regulator and bubble counter but I wouldn't like to say as you've everything in front of you, can see pressures and assembly of your system.
If you could source (free sample) a 6mm pushfit stop end to put at the end where you would position your diffuser this could tell you if there is a leak anywhere, that said if you've a non return you could just put that on in reverse.

However I think you should be able to find a leak if you are getting through the amount of gas

*EDIT


hongsit said:


> My bubble rate is high, prob 6bps.





hongsit said:


> the initial one they delivered ran out in a few days (3.15kg) bottle


Just going back through your posts, did you get through the 3.15kg at 6BPS in a couple of days? If so then to me that says it could be before the bubble counter so email Karol, give him as much info as you can and see what he says - It could be a simple fix.


----------



## Andrew Butler (11 Nov 2019)

The Accidental Aquascaper said:


> I'll probably take it off tonight, thanks!


Make sure you have a replacement washer (I always keep a few spare as they don't last forever) and I suggest following the advice I wrote above unless anyone else tells you otherwise.


----------



## hongsit (11 Nov 2019)

Yes the original tank only last a few days.  May have been a leak or may just been a near empty tank to begin with.  I’m not sure but I received a replacement and this is what I’m using now and it’s been fine.

Additional information which I didn’t mention, I’ve used this before on my 25l tank, even that took 4-5hrs to turn lime green at 2-3bps if I recall, didn’t think much of it then.

Will give Co2art a call and see if they have any ideas.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Kalum (11 Nov 2019)

If you have a leak after the bubble counter then it could affect the pressure in the diffuser

One thing to check is the large grub type screw on the bottom of the reg housing below the dials, it's not always picked up on how to videos but if its loose then you could drain a bottle in no time, be mindful that this screw will also affect the bps and working pressure aswell


----------



## ian_m (11 Nov 2019)

This is my graph of grams CO2 per day used. Typically 15-20gr per day on my 180l tank, so a 2KG extinguishers lasts 100-130 days. See where I had the leak !!!!


----------



## Geoffrey Rea (11 Nov 2019)

Andrew Butler said:


> PTFE tape isn't great practice with this type of gas connection, it relies upon the seal/washer. Something else not widely accepted is overtightening this type of gas connection is often what does cause leaks so with a healthy washer just tighten it up until you feel resistance then give it another 1/4 turn



Sound advice, no PTFE tape on the thread of the bottle. The over tightening part is dependent on who’s doing the tightening. We advise customers to use their opposite hand (so if right handed tighten with your left pretty tight) to get an adequate pressure on the washer and create the necessary seal. 

From your picture I see you’re using a Pro SE regulator and inline diffuser.

Potential areas that could be leaking:

- Bubble counter. Has four parts; lower section, clear viewing section, upper section with nipple and threaded nut. Ensure this is all screwed together with the black washers on the inside seated properly.





If there isn’t a black washer in the upper section (it’s possible it could have dropped out when topping up the bubble counter with water) it could be leaking from there, but even if it’s not seated properly it could potentially be leaking.





- Co2 tubing. Cut straight and clean. Use a razor blade or sharp knife and run the full length of the blade in a straight action to cut, not force. No scissors. The nut then needs to be down tight to maintain the seal.

- Co2 tubing (again). Same drill as above where the tubing joins the diffuser. Straight and clean cut.

- In-line diffuser. Reliant on three washers to maintain a seal. Two white, one orange:









If taking the diffuser apart for cleaning ensure all the seals are seated correctly when putting the unit back together.

If you’re assured these areas are accounted for you can then look for alternative options.

One other alternative is gassing off, this isn’t to insult your intelligence but I have to ask if you’re running any aeration? I’m careful to not presume anything these days. Have dealt with people that are adamant their unit is faulty until they’re red in the face, only to find out they’ve been running an airstone 24/7 whilst trying to use Co2 injection. 

My money is on the PTFE tape preventing a proper seal so hopefully removing it solves this issue and you have this sorted shortly.

As @Andrew Butler mentioned before, make sure you take into account that once the unit is functioning properly your running time for the Co2 and injection rate will need to be adjusted accordingly.


----------



## Siege (11 Nov 2019)

Excellent post, I couldn’t add any more.

My money is on a leak. Probably how the tubing is put on the bubble counter. Either cut badly, or pulled off from moving tubing/bottle. I know I’ve had/done both!


----------



## hongsit (11 Nov 2019)

Thank you for the informative post.  I’ve recut the co2 tubing and refitted the tubing to the bubble counter, there is a washer there and it is seated properly as far as I can see.  I’ve have screwed the top back on and tightened, but it always seems it can be tightened more.  Is that normal?    I don’t want to over tighten to avoid damaging the washer.
No leaks detected on soapy water test, not saying that’s 100% reliable.  

I’ve changed the washer as the regulator came with some spares and made sure I did not over tighten.  All my pressures have been stable with co2 on off, no movement at all so does that mean no leaks?

A bit late to double check diffuser so will check that tomorrow or end of the week when it’s due for weekly water change. 

The PTFE Tape was someone else, I have no tape on my connections.

I don’t have a airstone just the extra powerhead (Eheim skimmer, turned upside down) just to give that extra flow at the rear.

Thanks for your help and advice, appreciate it.

Will see how tomorrow goes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Geoffrey Rea (11 Nov 2019)

hongsit said:


> but it always seems it can be tightened more.



The seal between the bottle and the washer relies on the pressure applied by the tension of the nut. It’s difficult to explain this without being physically there but go tight. You shouldn’t be able to easily undo the nut without applying pressure to the wrench.

Think about the pressure coming out of the bottle, it needs to be sealed.

For the rate of Co2 loss from your first cylinder (days to empty) it’s highly likely it’s escaped from this initial seal.

Personally I get the nut nearly as tight as I want with the reg leaned back 90 degrees, then tighten with my left hand as much as I can until the reg is oriented vertically. There’s 900-1000psi trying to get out of that bottle.

I have no idea how strong you are. Advising a body builder to go as tight as they like and advising someone who could be blown over by a stiff breeze to go tight are two different scenarios. But your comment that it could be tightened more suggests it’s not tight enough through this forum medium. Go tighter and see if the problem persists.


----------



## hongsit (12 Nov 2019)

Apologies for not being clear, but I was referring to the bubble counter and it’s cap, screwed that back on, tightened it, but it always seems to be able to go a little more.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Geoffrey Rea (12 Nov 2019)

Ah I see. Read the post again. My mistake.


----------



## Andrew Butler (12 Nov 2019)

Firstly did you email Karol?
A lot of what @Geoffrey Rea says is spot on but there's so much in the system and an order to follow troubleshooting what you have first.
Just asking but do you have a little black rubber washer between the regulator and bubble counter? It doesn't seem to have come up from what I see.

Going right back to the start; maybe first would be to check the system upto the precision needle valve which would include the connection to CO2 cylinder but also ensure the main body connections, adjustment knob and gauges are not leaking and that would simply be turn off the solenoid, turn off the precision needle valve and leave things for 24-48 hours and just keep a track of the pressure gauges.


----------



## ian_m (12 Nov 2019)

You can easily check the seal between your regulator and CO2 bottle, I generally do it every time I change my bottle.

Make sure CO2 solenoid is off, open CO2 bottle (handle/valve) and ensure bottle pressure is 800psi/55bar 'ish. Make a note of this value.

Close off bottle handle/valve. Leave overnight.

In the morning bottle pressure should be whatever it was when handle was open, if not then you have a leak.


----------



## hongsit (12 Nov 2019)

Well this is interesting, left it yday around 6bps reconnected everything but switched off the powerhead.  This morning at 8:45 the drop checker was near lime green and PH was measured around 6.86.  The PH at 2am was 7.55.  

I’ve emailed Co2art and sent them a lot of pictures and videos but the last email they asked how long my powerhead was running for which triggered a thought.  I found a post on this forum (unfortunately don’t have the link), where the OP pretty much had the same issue, apart from he had an in tank diffuser.  But he also had a power head at the opposite end, outlet front left, powerhead rear right.  

He moved the power head to the same side as the outlet and moved the diffuser under the inlet and he managed to get a 1 point PH drop in 3hrs.  If I remember, before he struggled to get a 1point drop at all, drop checker just about turned lime green at the end of the day.

So i switched off powerhead last night hoping for some improvement and I certainly got some.  

I have to head into work but as an experiment I’ll have exactly the same setup but switch the powerhead back on tonight and see what I end up with, won’t touch anything else.

Think I’m not the right tracks, I have yet to reply to their last email but Co2art definitely help trigger a thought and I got a feeling that’s where they train of thought is heading.  I think distribution is at least part of the issue.  

Thank you all, will update when I can.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hongsit (12 Nov 2019)

Found the post if anyone is interested.


https://ukaps.org/forum/threads/melting-marsilea-hirsuta-staurogyne-repens.28996/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hongsit (12 Nov 2019)

Andrew Butler said:


> do you have a little black rubber washer between the regulator and bubble counter? It doesn't seem to have come up from what I see.



Are you talking about the bottom end of the bubble counter?  If so I have not taken that apart, It just screws on and off, nothing else there.  I’ll take a picture when I’m back home.

Even though there’s a good improvement by switching off the powerhead it’s still taken 7hrs to get a 0.7PH drop.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Andrew Butler (12 Nov 2019)

hongsit said:


> it’s an Ehiem surface skimmer upside down without the skimmer bit.
> It’s only rated at 350l/h but it improved the circular flow. But to be honest I’m not sure I need it, so I’ve switched it off for the time being.





hongsit said:


> So i switched off powerhead last night hoping for some improvement and I certainly got some.





hongsit said:


> yes sticking to changing one thing at a time where possible


If you're changing lots of things at once as you seem to be you're just complicating things, I know I'm losing track of where you're at so try sticking to one thing as you said.



hongsit said:


> Are you talking about the bottom end of the bubble counter? If so I have not taken that apart, It just screws on and off, nothing else there. I’ll take a picture when I’m back home.


There should be a little black rubber olive that sits on where you screw the bubble counter onto the regulator. I've taken a photo but it won't download right now so I can't show you.


----------



## Andrew Butler (12 Nov 2019)

Not got the regulator included but here we go............the little black olive should sit on the regulator before the bubble counter screws on top of it.


----------



## X3NiTH (12 Nov 2019)

I see from the pic of your setup that you are running this diffuser at 50psi, this pressure is way too high for this device. The CO₂Art diffuser is a rebranded Qanvee device, from experience it needs only between 20psi to 25psi to function correctly and using a higher delivery pressure can compromise the internal seals of the device and allow large bubbles of CO₂ to escape around the sides of the ceramic part of the diffuser and not be diffused.

Use the dial on the front of this dual stage type regulator to turn down the pressure.


----------



## hongsit (12 Nov 2019)

Andrew Butler said:


> Not got the regulator included but here we go............the little black olive should sit on the regulator before the bubble counter screws on top of it.
> View attachment 129003



Ah yes that’s there.

Yeah my mistake changing two things.

Right start from fresh.
Yesterday I reconnected everything checked leaks, in particular recut the co2 tubing, as the original cut was with scissors.  I also stopped the powerhead.

However I will start powerhead so the only change is the co2 tubing has been recut and reconnected.  Will report back tomorrow morning on this.  Everything else the same co2 start time and will take PH at 9am.

Bps around 6-7 hard to count. 

Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hongsit (12 Nov 2019)

X3NiTH said:


> I see from the pic of your setup that you are running this diffuser at 50psi, this pressure is way too high for this device. The CO₂Art diffuser is a rebranded Qanvee device, from experience it needs only between 20psi to 25psi to function correctly and using a higher delivery pressure can compromise the internal seals of the device and allow large bubbles of CO₂ to escape around the sides of the ceramic part of the diffuser and not be diffused.
> 
> Use the dial on the front of this dual stage type regulator to turn down the pressure.



Really, the manufacturer spec says 30-40psi.
The current psi is around 44, my regulator can’t go up that far.  Will turn it down after doing the other test, need to make sure I change one thing at a time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sparkyweasel (12 Nov 2019)

hongsit said:


> Bps around 6-7 hard to count.


If you camera/phone/computer can do it; film it and play back at half or quarter speed for easier counting.


----------



## hongsit (12 Nov 2019)

Ooh thanks.

Just did slow mo video against a timer on my wife’s phone.  10bps it seems not 6.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hongsit (13 Nov 2019)

Retook PH, Co2 on at 2am PH 7.6
PH at 8:30am 7.3
Bps 8

Will stop power head now and retake in 1hr.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Geoffrey Rea (13 Nov 2019)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> One other alternative is gassing off, this isn’t to insult your intelligence but I have to ask if you’re running any aeration? I’m careful to not presume anything these days.



Your power head will be performing some amount of degassing, just a question of how much. As it is non directional it will be creating additional surface agitation and therefore some amount of degassing of Co2 back towards available atmospheric levels of co2.

Even an Eheim skimmer can have the affect of green drop checker reading when it is on and yellow reading when it is off, most dramatic on sub 100ltr aquariums. This has to be accounted for when setting up Co2.

Other factors include:

- the amount of light (increased light leads to the potential of increased uptake of carbon from Co2 during photosynthesis).

- plant mass. More plants, more Co2 required to maintain the desired ppm saturation level.

- temperature has a huge influence on how much Co2 can be dissolved into water. See Henry’s law; when any gas is in contact with water, some gas will dissolve in the water. The amount that dissolves at a particular temperature depends on the pressure, or partial pressure, of the gas. Water is densest at 3.98°C. Lowering the temperature closer to water’s densest state (from say 25°C to 22°C increases the efficiency with which you can dissolve Co2 into water).

A bit off tangent but this is why the oceans serve as a huge sink for atmospheric Co2, but this is becoming less true due to changes in acidity levels.


----------



## hongsit (13 Nov 2019)

That makes a lot of sense.  Thanks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hongsit (13 Nov 2019)

Ffs!  So stupid.  The PH pen was new and didn’t need calibration.  Just recalibrated and the PH reading is now around 6.7!  

Sorry guys, obviously trusted manufacturer to say calibrated from factory.  But learnt my lesson the very hard way.  

Will take reading tonight after co2 off and see what the starting position is.  




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hongsit (13 Nov 2019)

Gonna step away from this for a bit as this has got me a bit annoyed and it’s not what I want this hobby to be about.  Takes effort to get something nice and I’m willing to put the effort (and money) in but it’s stuff like this that annoys me so will take a breather, pop out to the cinema for some mindless entertainment (terminator) and start my readings again tonight.

I know I should of calibrated the pen at the start so I have a known position, as I said learnt my lesson.


----------

