# Switched to EI - What went wrong



## Waqar

Hi all,

I have a 54litres tank with a 15w T8 bulb and Fluval stratum substrate. I use tap water, which is quite hard in my area.

In the beginning, I was only dosing 1 daily drop of JBL Ferropol 24, and had good plant growth for Java fern, hygros, crypts and anubias. I did not dose any macros.

Then I switched to the EI method, and started dosing KNO3 and KH2O4 for macros, and Seachem equilibrium for micros. The new routine failed. Most of my plants got stunted but my Java fern died completely.

Can anyone advice what about the new change might have created this problem?


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## rebel

Any photos to show before and after pics?

As a rule of thumb, if an approach is working, I wouldn't try to change it up too much.

Without co2, EI methods are not really required. EI will of colourise work but you'd need to be very careful of water changes and perhaps even starting at 1/5 of recommended dosing.

Without co2 injection, EI should really be reserved for experienced aquarists.


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## Waqar

Hi rebel,

Unfortunately, I don't have any photos. I started with dosing EI only once a week, based on the fact that my setup was low tech. I also started adding liquid co2.

Still, it is hard to understand what went wrong. Could it me that the chemicals are reacting in some way? Should I go back to the old regime of no macro dosing, and only dose daily ferropol 24?


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## rebel

Did you say liquid co2? That can cause plants to melt. Can you elaborate on details?


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## Michal550

my java fern melted wit liquid co2.


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## darren636

1/4 ei is probably more than enough,
 Try to split the dosage into daily additions.


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## EnderUK

> As per Tom’s recommendations, dose the following once a week or once in two weeks for a 20 gallon tank. If you have a different sized tank, calculate the required fert dose accordingly.
> 
> 
> 1/4 Teaspoon of Seachem Equilibrium (for traces and Calcium + Magnesium). (1.42 ppm Ca, 0.42 ppm Mg, 3.43 ppm K and 0.02 ppm Fe)
> 1/8 Teaspoon of KNO3 (Potassium Nitrate) (5.27 ppm NO3 and 3.32 ppm K)
> 1/32 Teaspoon of KH2PO4 (Potassium Mono Phosphate) (1.61 ppm PO4 and 0.66 ppm K)


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## Waqar

rebel said:


> Did you say liquid co2? That can cause plants to melt. Can you elaborate on details?


 
Hi Rebel - I have Fluval stratum for substrate. My water is quite hard, and ph levels are about 7.8.

At first, I was only dosing Feropol 24, with no macro dosing and no liquid Co2, and the plants were doing fine. .

Then I switched to adding 2/3rd dosage (because I have 15g) of the following routine:


1/4 Teaspoon of Seachem Equilibrium (for traces and Calcium + Magnesium). (1.42 ppm Ca, 0.42 ppm Mg, 3.43 ppm K and 0.02 ppm Fe)
1/8 Teaspoon of KNO3 (Potassium Nitrate) (5.27 ppm NO3 and 3.32 ppm K)
1/32 Teaspoon of KH2PO4 (Potassium Mono Phosphate) (1.61 ppm PO4 and 0.66 ppm K)
The plants did not like the new routine. The hygros and crypts got stunted, while the java fern leaves turned yellow and died. I then went to a LFS (maidenhead aquatics), and a salesman told me this could be due to lack of Co2. He have me liquid Co2, which I now add daily, but things are still quite bad.

So right now, I am stuck and perplexed on what to do next.


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## ian_m

Your Fe & other salts in Equlibrium are reacting with phosphate.

Please dose EI with macro & micro and alternate days, rather than inventing some form of fertilisation that is clearly not working.


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## EnderUK

Waqar said:


> The plants did not like the new routine. The hygros and crypts got stunted, while the java fern leaves turned yellow and died. I then went to a LFS (maidenhead aquatics), and a salesman told me this could be due to lack of Co2. He have me liquid Co2, which I now add daily, but things are still quite bad.
> 
> So right now, I am stuck and perplexed on what to do next.



Great way to sell you something, next he'll sell you a whole CO2 kit. The liquid CO2 won't do any harm but if you want to use it then welcome to a high tech tank.  You will now have to up your Dosage a little. I would start with the following.



> A 20 gallon tank using excel should get:
> 1/8 teaspoon of KNO3, 1-2x a week
> 1/16 teaspoon of KH2PO4, 1-2x a week
> 2mls of Seachem Flourish, 2x a week (Traces)
> SeaChem Equilibrium 1/8th once a week (Immediately after weekly water change)
> 50% weekly water change
> Dose 1-1.5x the recommended dose for Excel (1 ml for every 10 gallons on a daily basis and 5ml for every 10 gallon after 40% or more water changes) (liquid Carbon).





ian_m said:


> Your Fe & other salts in Equlibrium are reacting with phosphate.
> 
> Please dose EI with macro & micro and alternate days, rather than inventing some form of fertilisation that is clearly not working.



Ian, don't think he's invented the low tech EI routine, think that might of been Tom Barr  The amount of Iron and KH2PO4 you dose in a low tech tank is almost pointless. I throw them both in at the same time in my low tech, no issues.


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## rebel

Did the plants ever grow? One has to consider the extreme tap water conditions?


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## Waqar

EnderUK said:


> Ian, don't think he's invented the low tech EI routine, think that might of been Tom Barr  .



EnderUK - That is correct. I got those dosage from Tom Barr. I even increased them after introducing liquid Co2. However, as Ian suggested I think the culprit might be FE reacting with the phosphates.

I just read at http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/traces.htm, that at hard water, unchelated iron reacts with phosphates to create unusable FE (III). So, assuming this is the problem what should I do? I already dose the seachem a day after dosing the macros.



rebel said:


> Did the plants ever grow? One has to consider the extreme tap water conditions?



They did not.


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## flygja

According to Seachem's website, Equilibrium doesn't contain chelated iron, so it might react with phosphates. Better to dose the micros on separate days then. You can actually easily test this, though I've only read it but never actually tried it. Put some KH2PO4 and some Equilibrium in some preferable RO water and wait. If the water turns brown or you see solids forming, then the iron is reacting with the phosphates.


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## rebel

While I don't doubt that some precipitation could occur with iron and phosphate etc, I don't think that's the ops problem. His plants were growing fine before he started dosing ? .


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## dw1305

Hi all,





Waqar said:


> I just read at http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/traces.htm, that at hard water, unchelated iron reacts with phosphates to create unusable FE (III). So, assuming this is the problem what should I do?


That is true. You can add iron in a chelated form, <"FeEDTA"> is the cheapest option. 

If you have really hard water you could use one of the <"alternative chelators"> designed for harder water. 

cheers Darrel


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## Waqar

rebel said:


> While I don't doubt that some precipitation could occur with iron and phosphate etc, I don't think that's the ops problem. His plants were growing fine before he started dosing ? .



Hi rebel - then what do you think is the problem? Many people are using this method succesfully, but it is not working for me.




dw1305 said:


> Hi all,That is true. You can add iron in a chelated form, <"FeEDTA"> is the cheapest option.
> 
> If you have really hard water you could use one of the <"alternative chelators"> designed for harder water.
> 
> cheers Darrel



If I stop dosing Seachem, and replace it with chelated iron, won't I need to separately dose other micronutrients?


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## Waqar

-


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## rebel

Hi Waqar, not sure what's going on. Can you so a big reset, 80% daily water  changes for one week and go back to your old routine. It would be interesting to see that the plants recover when this occurs. 

Next step is to make sure that your EI powders are genuine. Not something like sodium chloride.


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Waqar said:


> If I stop dosing Seachem, and replace it with chelated iron, won't I need to separately dose other micronutrients?


You can still dose the Seachem Equilibrium, but it isn't a complete micronutrient solution, it is only supplying iron (Fe) and manganese (Mn).   

It is unlikely, but your plants could be suffering from a lack of zinc (Zn), cobalt (Co), Boron (B) etc.

I would buy a micro-element mix like <"this one"> from a sponsor (other sponsors are available).

cheers Darrel


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## Waqar

rebel said:


> Hi Waqar, not sure what's going on. Can you so a big reset, 80% daily water  changes for one week and go back to your old routine. It would be interesting to see that the plants recover when this occurs.
> 
> Next step is to make sure that your EI powders are genuine. Not something like sodium chloride.



The old routine involved adding a daily drop of JBL Ferropol 24, which adds micro traces. I never did any macro dosing. But I might just go back to it.

I think the poweders are genuine. I got them from the nutrient company, a reputable online shop.


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Waqar said:


> JBL Ferropol 24





Waqar said:


> 1/4 Teaspoon of Seachem Equilibrium (for traces and Calcium + Magnesium). (1.42 ppm Ca, 0.42 ppm Mg, 3.43 ppm K and 0.02 ppm Fe)
> 
> 1/8 Teaspoon of KNO3 (Potassium Nitrate) (5.27 ppm NO3 and 3.32 ppm K)
> 1/32 Teaspoon of KH2PO4 (Potassium Mono Phosphate) (1.61 ppm PO4 and 0.66 ppm K)


You might be suffering from magnesium deficiency if you are only adding Mg via the traces mix and have very hard (calcium rich) water. Some of the American EI recipes don't add Mg because of <"differences in geology"> between the USA/UK.

cheers Darrel


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## Waqar

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,  You might be suffering from magnesium deficiency if you are only adding Mg via the traces mix and have very hard (calcium rich) water. Some of the American EI recipes don't add Mg because of <"differences in geology"> between the USA/UK.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Thanks Darrel - I thought there was Mg in Seachem Equilibrium? In any case, I will revert back to my old schedule. Daily doses of JBL Ferropol 24 for micros, no liquid CO2, and weekly doses of macro. I really want to keep the tank low-tech. I'll report in a couple of weeks.


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Waqar said:


> I thought there was Mg in Seachem Equilibrium?


There is, but only in trace amounts. 

Magnesium isn't required in huge amounts by plants, and it is mobile within the plant so it will be transported to the newer leaves, but in calcium rich water (like we have in the S. UK) calcium (Ca++) ions can interfere with Mg++ ion uptake. 

"Epsom Salts" (MgSO4.7H2O) are cheap to buy and supply about 10% Mg, so you can guarantee your plants aren't Mg deficient by adding a small amount (~5ppm).  

I keep low tech. tanks, but I don't add any nutrients regularly. I'm not aiming for optimal growth (I just want some growth) and use <"the colour and vigour of a floating plant"> (not CO2 limited) as a visual indicator of when to feed. 

cheers Darrel


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## Waqar

dw1305 said:


> I keep low tech. tanks, but I don't add any nutrients regularly. I'm not aiming for optimal growth (I just want some growth) and use <"the colour and vigour of a floating plant"> (not CO2 limited) as a visual indicator of when to feed.
> 
> cheers Darrel



That's really helpful Darrel. I also want a low tech tank with slow growth. Can you share what exactly do you dose (as in what products do you use), what quantities etc, when you see a deficiency.


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Waqar said:


> Can you share what exactly do you dose (as in what products do you use), what quantities etc, when you see a deficiency.


It isn't very scientific, have a search for <"Duckweed Index">.

cheers Darrel


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## Derek113

I dose macro and micro EI on alternate days. I also dose 2ml of co2 daily.

I found that only some of my needle fern melted, the rest of my plans are growing. Tank has been set up for 3 weeks and is growing well.


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## Waqar

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, It isn't very scientific, have a search for <"Duckweed Index">.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Hi Darrel - I read up on it, and like the idea and would want to try it. 

So you suggest that I float a few plants (Amazon Frogbit, hornwort etc), and only dose nutrients when I see a deficiency in them. Would you recommend dosing KNO3, K2HO4 and micros?


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## Waqar

Derek113 said:


> View attachment 80168 I dose macro and micro EI on alternate days. I also dose 2ml of co2 daily.
> 
> I found that only some of my needle fern melted, the rest of my plans are growing. Tank has been set up for 3 weeks and is growing well.



Hi Derek - Glad that worked for you. I failed to get the results I needed with that, so I'll have to use some other method, probably the Duckweed one.


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## Waqar

Reviving this old post after more than a year. So the culprit was Seachem Equilibrium. I stopped using that, and now dose with chelated iron and the tank is doing fine. I learned that in SE UK, the water is hard enough that we do not need GH boosters, so while Equilibrium might be needed in the US, it's not required here.


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## xim

> 1/4 Teaspoon of Seachem Equilibrium (for traces and Calcium + Magnesium). (1.42 ppm Ca, 0.42 ppm Mg, 3.43 ppm K and 0.02 ppm Fe)



I've just seen this thread. As far as I can remember. The quoted sentence above is not from Tom Barr's site (barrreport.com).

Equilibrium is never considered to be used as a "Trace Elements" or "Micros" in Tom's EI. Because it doesn't contain chelated nutrients. The recipes in Tom Barr's barrreport.com always suggest using Trace Elements along with GH Booster (yes, you can skip it if you're sure your tap has enough Ca and Mg). Equilibrium is considered a GH Booster in Tom's EI.

http://www.barrreport.com/threads/ei-light-for-those-less-techy-folks.2794/


> 10- 20 Gallon Aquariums
> +/- 1/8 tsp KNO3 (N) 3x a week
> +/- 1/32 tsp KH2PO4 (P) 3x a week
> +/- 1/4 tsp GH booster once a week(water change only)
> +/- 1/32 tsp (2ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
> 50% weekly water change



PS. 1/32 TSP if the micros you use is in powder form (CSM+B) and 2ml if it's branded liquid such as Tropica liquid fertiliser or Seachem Flourish Comprehensive.


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## dw1305

Hi all,





Waqar said:


> Reviving this old post after more than a year. So the culprit was Seachem Equilibrium. I stopped using that, and now dose with chelated iron and the tank is doing fine. I learned that in SE UK, the water is hard enough that we do not need GH boosters, so while Equilibrium might be needed in the US, it's not required here.


Good I'm pleased you sorted it out. 

Do you dose magnesium sulphate (MgSO4.7H2O)?

cheers Darrel


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## Waqar

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,Good I'm pleased you sorted it out.
> 
> Do you dose magnesium sulphate (MgSO4.7H2O)?
> 
> cheers Darrel



Hi Darrel,

Thanks for your help. As next step, I am thinking of adding a few more plants, mostly those that I lost when this problem started.

On your question, I currently don't dose magnesium sulphate, although I have been thinking about it. I occasionally get yellowing of older leaves in my hygrophila polysperma, which someone suggested might be due to sulphur deficiency. Before I give it a serious thought, are there any potential side effects of dousing it?


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## Waqar

xim said:


> Equilibrium is never considered to be used as a "Trace Elements" or "Micros" in Tom's EI. Because it doesn't contain chelated nutrients. The recipes in Tom Barr's barrreport.com always suggest using Trace Elements along with GH Booster (yes, you can skip it if you're sure your tap has enough Ca and Mg). Equilibrium is considered a GH Booster in Tom's EI.



I got the idea from this website, which is quite informative. Apparently, Sudeep's recommendations are better suited for US conditions. For me, adding Seactem Equilibrium with nonchelated iron turned out to be an expensive mistake.

http://www.sudeepmandal.com/hobbies/planted-aquarium/low-tech-planted-tank


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## ian_m

Waqar said:


> On your question, I currently don't dose magnesium sulphate


Very few places in the UK, unlike the States, have magnesium in the tap water. Thus really dosing MgSo4 in not optional.

dw1305 will be along shortly with his handy map of what causes hardness in the UK Mg or Ca.


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## dw1305

Hi all,





Waqar said:


> I am thinking of adding a few more plants


More plants is always a good idea. 





Waqar said:


> On your question, I currently don't dose magnesium sulphate, although I have been thinking about it. I occasionally get yellowing of older leaves in my hygrophila polysperma, which someone suggested might be due to sulphur deficiency. Before I give it a serious thought, are there any potential side effects of dousing it?


It is unlikely to be a sulphur deficiency, most hard water contains some sulphates. You only need to dose a small amount of magnesium, it doesn't have a down-side.  





ian_m said:


> Very few places in the UK, unlike the States, have magnesium in the tap water. Thus really dosing MgSo4 in not optional. dw1305 will be along shortly with his handy map of what causes hardness in the UK Mg or Ca


Ian is right. It is to do with depositional basins.

In the USA most of the limestone aquifers have experienced <"dolomitization">. This is because the continental USA (the <"craton">) has been repeatedly flooded by a shallow <"epicratonic sea">. 




Magnesium is common in seawater (~1300ppm), and as the sea has repeatedly evaporated and re-flooded the continent large deposits of magnesium have been laid down. You have the same process with the <"Mediterranean">, it is an evaporite basin.

The limestone aquifers in the UK are mainly different and most of them are pure limestone (CaCO3), this is because they were laid down as huge layers of CaCO3 in a deep ocean basin, and have subsequently been compressed deep in the earth, squeezing all of the water (and magnesium ions) out of the limestone.




If you have chalk (above) or Jurassic age limestone aquifers they contain very little magnesium. In the UK only a few places are different, and you are only likely to have appreciable amounts of magnesium in your water if you live in S. Cornwall, around Epsom in Surrey, in the area where they used to extract <"Brine"> ("Triassic salt"), or the band where it says "Permian (gypsum and) dolomite" on the geological map.





cheers Darrel


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## Waqar

Thanks Darrel for such an interesting overview. I grew up in the US, but didn't know quite as much about the country's  geological history.

What dosage of MGSO4 would you recommend. I am thinking maybe 1/64 tsp should be enough?


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## ian_m

Using https://rotalabutterfly.com/nutrient-calculator.php for EI you are looking at just over 1/2 a tsp per dosing day.


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Waqar said:


> I grew up in the US, but didn't know quite as much about the country's geological history.


 If you want a good read, I can't recommend the works of <"John McPhee"> highly enough. 





ian_m said:


> Using https://rotalabutterfly.com/nutrient-calculator.php for EI you are looking at just over 1/2 a tsp per dosing day.


That looks about right, you can always use a bit less, but it doesn't really make any difference. 

If you start from the premise that "Epsom Salts" contain about 10% Mg, and you want ~4ppm Mg in the tank, 41g MgSO4.7H2O (made up to one litre with RO water) would give you a 4000ppm stock solution. 

One cm3 of the stock solution in 1 litre volume of tank water is 4ppm. So if your tank is 50 litres, 50 cm3 of the stock solution would supply 4 ppm.

If you wanted to use the dry salt, rather than a stock solution, 4ppm Mg works out at 2g, and a half teaspoon is about 3g.

Personally I use the more scientific "_lick your finger, stick it in the Epsom salts, dip finger in tank, when the plants look a bit pale repeat"  _method but I am pretty lazy and I should really do better.

cheers Darrel


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## Waqar

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,  If you want a good read, I can't recommend the works of <"John McPhee"> highly enough.



Will check it out.



dw1305 said:


> If you start from the premise that "Epsom Salts" contain about 10% Mg, and you want ~4ppm Mg in the tank, 41g MgSO4.7H2O (made up to one litre with RO water) would give you a 4000ppm stock solution.
> 
> One cm3 of the stock solution in 1 litre volume of tank water is 4ppm. So if your tank is 50 litres, 50 cm3 of the stock solution would supply 4 ppm.
> 
> If you wanted to use the dry salt, rather than a stock solution, 4ppm Mg works out at 2g, and a half teaspoon is about 3g.
> 
> Personally I use the more scientific "_lick your finger, stick it in the Epsom salts, dip finger in tank, when the plants look a bit pale repeat"  _method but I am pretty lazy and I should really do better.
> 
> cheers Darrel



According to Nutri-calc 4ppm would require 5/8 tsp for a 20g tank. Do we really need 4ppm Mg in a low tech tank? The target ppm for my current regime is is 5.27 (NO3), 3.98 (K) and 1.61 (P). Do plants need more Mg that K and P?


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## roadmaster

As the plant mass increases weekly,monthly,then more of everything might be needed. No?
I do not doubt that some tanks can use less of everything ,but am struck stupid sometimes by those that want to dose only what the plant's might need for the day/week.
This approach to me,would mean constant testing ,increasing,as plant's began to grow in.
Much less trouble for me to add what I'm sure is excess in my low tech, maybe 1/3 EI,, and decrease a little each week till I see poor health,then return to previous dose.


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Waqar said:


> Do we really need 4ppm Mg in a low tech tank?


No probably not, it is just an arbitrary figure, but a lot of river water etc. will naturally contain a lot more magnesium than this.You could add it once a week.

Calcium and magnesium aren't like the other nutrients, because they are the components of general hardness and a lot of natural waters are "hard", or soils alkaline, just because of the geology of their depositional basin.

The plant just needs some magnesium, once you've fulfilled that requirement the actual amount isn't that important.  Because magnesium is mobile within the plant you should get a pretty rapid greening after its addition if it was deficient.

Personally I just use plant health, via the Duckweed Index  for nutrient addition, and I don't worry too much about the actual amounts of nutrients I add.

If the "duckweed" is green and growing, I don't add nutrients. When it starts to look unhealthy I add N and K, if that doesn't help I add everything else. 

If I suspect iron deficiency (this effects new leaves and is a non-mobile element) I know that it plant health will only improve when new leaves grow.

cheers Darrel


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## JMorgan

Very usefully succinct summary Darrel - Thank you


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