# Round indoor pond project queries.



## sciencefiction (16 Sep 2016)

Hi All,

I am back with an exciting new project to start near term and I have a few questions.

I'd like to set up an indoor round pond as per the picture below.






The container has a diameter of 125cm, 73 cm tall and holds 900l of water. It is a potable container made from polyethylene.

It will hold all my current fish which is a bunch of corydoras, 7 clown loaches, 5 khuli loaches and lots of shrimp if they don't get all eaten.  It will have lots of emersed plants pots on the perimeter and some underwater plants. The light will be simple flood led held by a gooseneck.

I won't see much of my bottom fish with this setup but I prefer them to be as happy as can be.

My question is, what's the best filtration for a round container of this size and how would one set it up to benefit the system in the best way? Currently I own 3 external filters and multiple internal filters ranging between 2000l/h to 1000l/h. I also own a 1250 pump and 2500l/h powerhead.


Do you think my clown loaches will be happy in there long term?

Will clown loaches eat kuhli loaches?

Would two 300W heaters be sufficient?

Would 30W flood led as per the specs below be sufficient for emersed tropicals or should I go higher?

http://www.ledkia.com/uk/buy-ultras...tml#/colour-temperaturecool-white-6000k-6500k

Are there any risks I could run into with this type of setup?

Any other ideas are welcome, setup wise, planting wise, substrate, light, etc...

Thank you all for reading and any help is welcome.


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## Greenfinger2 (17 Sep 2016)

Hi Sciencefiction, An indoor pond. Why not just set up a tank and do the pond in the garden.

Looking forward to seeing this. Clown loaches as far as I know will not harm Kuhli loaches.  In a pond I don't think you will ever see them though 

I use that lighting over my tanks Great works well and cheap 

Others will now more about the other stuff 

Good luck with your project  Following


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## sciencefiction (17 Sep 2016)

Hey Greenfinger2. Thanks so much for your reply.

I won't go into details because I am ashamed to say it. I had another fish disaster 2 months ago. My clown loaches and corys are in plastic tubs of 80-150 litres right now.  am never getting glass tanks again.


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## Alex J (17 Sep 2016)

Hi, interested in seeing how this develops. I have kept 10cm clown loach with Amano shrimp without issue, though you don't say how big your clown loach are or what kind of shrimp you plan on keeping them with.Given the correct conditions clown loach usually grow fairly quickly up to around 12 to 15cm then slow down and as i'am sure you are aware can potentially reach 30cm they can also live for many years, maybe 20+ so they are a real long term commitment, one concern is that your pond is not big enough to successfully sustain them long term, kept in unsuitable conditions they can become stressed and their growth stunted.The other is that clown loach should  only be kept in a mature fully cycled tank,and can become very stressed in an immature set up with an almost guaranteed  case of ich following swiftly behind. good luck with your new venture, looking forward to up dates


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## zozo (17 Sep 2016)

Sorry to hear you have so much bad luck with glass tanks.. 

But very interesting idea to do this indoor and tropical with such a tub..  How you filter it and heat is will work the same as a 900 litre aquarium, you only need to figure out same different ways of installing it. And in a round bucket you can't create to much horizontal flow, it will be a constantly circling edy, best is the bring to flow up from the bottom so it wirls up like a wel from bellow. Even beter and much more natural if you plan to use floaters like lilies (because the hate flow) is create a helophyte filter.. Then take a (oval fits best) plant basket like this



Hang it to the inside top of the tub and fill it with a coarse inert substrate like Alfagrog and top it off with a decorative small gravel.. Put plants in and let the prefilter (canister) outlet seeping on top of the gravel into this basket.. Like this you only need some prefilter sponge as this will be your biological filtration. It also will create the best natural flow in the round tub and since it's low tech it wont need so much flow. And this will filter the water crystal clear and never needs cleaning only need to clean the prefilter sponges. You need to be carefull if you plan to replant it, a filter like this shouldn't be disturbed, if you do it will wash out a lot of what it collected into the water. Carefully plant it with hungry perennial plants and leave it be filtering, beter is never to disturb it if you do do it outside the tub and rinse it out clean.

Once setup the things you might run into on the long run is the tub is rather high 73cm and since you can only view from the top you wont see much of whats going on in there. So you wont see any debri buildup on the bottom easy. Especialy if you use a dark substrate then you also wont see much of the fish, most of them have a darker ridge on their back for camouflage purpose, in an aquarium you mainly look at their flanks than this camou ridge is barely noticable. For maintenance purpose and viewing fun from above it is best to use a light colored substrate to see the debri buildup and syphon it out. With a dark substrate you just never see this debri and don't know where to clean.

For the rest this will work the same as an open top low tech tank you just can't see through.


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## alto (17 Sep 2016)

I doubt there's any reason for shame on your part - commiserations of whatever disaster fell your way

Depending on present size of your clowns, the 125cm "length" may be more/less suitable (I'm sure you realize that 180cm x 60 cm is recommended as the smallest tank to consider for a group of clown loaches - I just mention this for other readers) ... I'm not convinced that a 125cm round tank "works" as well as a rectangular tank (greater length) with similar surface area, certainly the flow characteristics will be rather different.
Unfortunately you'll have limited viewing of the fish so will just need to see how it goes.

Clown loaches will eat smaller tankmates, I suspect given a sand substrate, the kuhlis will be relatively safe, the Cory's may be less so (again depends on relative sizes) 
I'd expect shrimp predation, also just stress from the setup - which unfortunately you'll not be able to easily monitor
(I'd keep the shrimp in a separate tub)

Sorry not very helpful


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## sciencefiction (17 Sep 2016)

@zozo 

I've had the clown loaches for four years. They were moved 3 times in the last 2 months, from the broken tank to a small plastic tub, to a larger plastic tub. They were moved a year ago again from one broken tank to another.. Poor things....
The tub runs with all the external filters that used to be in the tank. I'll also transfer these same filters to mini pond so hopefully I won't need much cycling. The clowns always lived with the corydoras and don't seem interested in eating other fish yet.  Also, they've been living with cherry shrimp for the last year, tons surviving them. I am not sure why they don't eat them all. They did eat all the snails. I suppose when the clowns get bigger that may change. But the biggest now is around 8 inch.
The new tub will be 900litres, nearly 240gallons. A 180*60*60 is 640 liters. Volume wise the fish will have plenty to grow. The question is the shape.
Ideally I'd let it run with plants and filters only for a couple of months first but that means my fish will stay in a 140 litre tub longer.

@alto

I've been reading that round containers are the ideal shape for fish tanks and that's why they are used in fish farming. That's where I got my idea from.  I am going to have to see how true that is.  I am aware of the minimum clown loach tank size recommendation but it doesn't seem my clowns will ever get a glass or any tank of that shape and size. I will know by the loach behaviour if its fine or not. They come up for food when not stressed. One still eats from my hand. Currently they don't....in a 140 litre tub..

@zozo

That's a great idea zozo. I just have to find those baskets you showed in the pics but I'll definitely incorporate something like this.


I am not worried about not seeing the fish. I probably won't see much of the corys and the khulis but the clowns come up for food in the morning and race a lot up and down when at their best. The substrate will be white sand cap on top of soil and I will have strong light on top. That should help with the viewing.  Eventually I'll get some surface feeders to keep me entertained.


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## zozo (17 Sep 2016)

I do not know your budget and aslo not how much space you have available, or have the skills for it..But if it where for indoor purpose and pond like i personaly would rather go for a custom pond made out off plywood standing on legs like a table make the water body a bit more shallow and then you could even incorporate a glass panel for viewing fun. Wood is very easily sealed with the nowadays epoxies and glass fiber cloth, silicone adheres perfectly to it to build in a glass panel if you would like that. Many peeple who are into very large tanks, rather go plywood than complete glass tanks, because it is much easier to customize. Most issues people run into building this and have negative experience is not taking pressure in account but build 60 or 70 cm high tanks. Then construction is vital because pressure is rather high.. But if build shallow like 40 cm there aint so much pressure and much less stress to take in account and then it's much safer to build.

The glass fiber cloth drained with epoxy will create a glass hard watertight and inert layer which is very durable and stronger than glass and even surviving an earthqauck if the base material is constructed solid enough. Just an idea and it would give you much more frredom in choosing and customizing dimensions. And it doesn't need to be so expensive.


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## sciencefiction (17 Sep 2016)

Hey zozo, great idea but I've got zero skills so I need to buy something made.


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## alto (17 Sep 2016)

Have you looked at some of the oval footprint "ponds" - or do they have those locally? - this might fit better in-home & should put some length back in for the clowns

I observe fish generally swimming lengths rather than circles ... not that they don't swim circular patterns as well: I transfer fish between 90x45x53(H) tank & 60x45x53(H) tank, the cories almost seem happiest in the 60cm, but the various rasboras & chocolate gouramis definitely prefer the longer tank (& none of these fish are more than 5 cm)

Farm "stock tanks" often do an oval design & most are quality plastic rather than metal nowadays.

You could even do a mini water fountain at one end


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## sciencefiction (17 Sep 2016)

Hey alto. Thanks very much for your suggestion. I thought about that too. But the circular shape is a self supporting shape and can be setup standalone.  The oval or rectangular ponds need to be either buried underground or re-enforced in some way. They are risky otherwise.

I am hoping that the 4f width will compensate for the length being less than ideal. . To be honest, for the 4 years I've had the clowns they did not race the tank length as much as you read online. They utilize it only when spooked which is probably why the length is suggested. Reduces the stress when they try to run away from their "fears" that are mostly in human form . What my clown loaches do is "play" up and down in a vertical sort of swim. They do that for hours every day and they have kept that routine for all the years I've had them. There's an old video below from their first tank. That's basically what they do for 90% of the time they are outside of their caves. That's the "I am hungry" dance...


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## Greenfinger2 (17 Sep 2016)

Hi S/F, Great video of the clowns Wonderful looking fish I Love them and they eat snails


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## sciencefiction (17 Sep 2016)

Two years later from the above video just before it broke, same side of the tank, same corner..For some reason they loved that corner, lol. The glass is curved and they loved that. I never saw them racing the back normal corner.


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## sciencefiction (17 Sep 2016)

Thanks greenfinger. I really hope that they make it till I setup the new tank. Hopefully I'll order it end of next week but it will take some time to set it up sufficiently to move the fish over.


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## Greenfinger2 (17 Sep 2016)

Hi S/F  they look fab and healthy fish   Hope all go's well with the new tank mate 

Ho Ps please call me Roy


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## sciencefiction (17 Sep 2016)

Ha, ha. I will, sorry


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## alto (17 Sep 2016)

sciencefiction said:


> The oval or rectangular ponds need to be either buried underground or re-enforced in some way.


take a look at the "stock tanks" then - they are all designed to be free standing ... sorry I've no idea on what your local costs might be

 your clowns obviously have their own ideas of suitable play 

A round tank for them, it is then


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## sciencefiction (17 Sep 2016)

He, he, alto.

Thanks. Stock tanks look great if there was anywhere to buy them from here...Is the poly-tuf material inert for fish? The drain plug is also a worry.


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## alto (17 Sep 2016)

They don't all come with drain plugs (those cost extra  ) ... here any place that carries "Rubbermaid" can bring in a stock tank (as R is one of the manufacturers), they are required to be "food safe" in order to be equine safe (check with livestock supply places as to availability/costs)


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## Nelson (17 Sep 2016)

http://little.holmesstorehouse.co.uk/Item_i1797652
http://www.pondkeeper.co.uk/laguna-medium-pond-tank/p1742?gclid=CLCskcisl88CFcIp0wodtL4Dqw


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## sciencefiction (18 Sep 2016)

Thanks guys. I'll check those out.


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## zozo (18 Sep 2016)

You also could have a look at Aquaponic / Hydroponic systems.. This is becomming more and more popular and some designs are made to house fish and grow plants.

Some ar every fancy designed and more for decorative purpose indoor or outdoor, which reflects in the price ofcourse.



 

More try to say, you do not solely have to search in the fish or pond industry.. In the aquaponics scene you might find eqaul or even beter alternative base materials and more aimed to what you want. House fish and grow plants..


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## sciencefiction (18 Sep 2016)

Thanks Zozo. I read quite a bit about the aquaponics system but that involves setting up multiple tanks. I don't want something hugely expensive because its money down the drain.  I want the possibility of leaks and tank breaking to a minimum. The risk must be just the external filters only.  The idea is not aesthetics or fancy things but reliability. When you've had 3 large enough tanks flood your house you start getting sleep issues and bad dreams. The last time the tank broke on Monday morning. I didn't sleep all night, scooping fish from the 5f tank and trying to set them up in small plastic containers without knowing their future....Nightmare, I couldn't even cry because I had no time....and then I went to work.....It took us 3 weeks to clean up the mess and my partner is not mad about fish.

 The tank will be setup in a spare storage room. I have plenty of space but I don't want to flood anything again.  

@Nelson 

These look really good but the 100g is too small. The bigger version is way too big.

I like the structural foam oval tanks alto hinted about. None for sale in Europe online, lol.


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## zozo (18 Sep 2016)

Do you have any idea why this happened to you? 2 tanks leaking in such a short time periode is realy bad luck or some constructional issues. Where they big old tanks?
I can image the sleepless nights you had from this, nothing more nasty than water damage indoors. If it happened to me i also would loose my trust...

But i didn't mean for you to setup a aquaponic or hydroponic system, but more like searching in this direction for suitable containers.. Since these containers are constructed to safely hold water and or grow plants.. If it does that it can hold fish as well. If it doesn't need to decorative and only temporary it might broaden the options to choose from even more.

Or polyester ponds (containers) are also very durable and sturdy. This one is  260X62X60 CM..


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## sciencefiction (18 Sep 2016)

One of the tanks was 6 year old, the other I got 2nd hand and was build in 2003. The fist one had the stand's middle leg collapse. I am not sure how it happened...the concrete below the carpet may have had a hole and the tank must have moved over the years somehow...
 The second one opened up on the seals. I bought it second hand so it was quite old. It was perfectly level as far as we could measure. The issue could be us not properly levelling them but all I can go by is the level and the water level.
For a few weeks the fish weren't a priority for the first time....but I love them too much and giving them away here means demise to them. I'd rather kill them myself...



zozo said:


> But i didn't mean for you to setup a aquaponic or hydroponic system, but more like searching in this direction for suitable containers..



Thanks Marcel. I know you meant that. I'd love to have an aquaponics system but I must lose the fear of flooded rooms first  I've searched a lot. They must do delivery here which is the problem with having a choice. There are better ideas out there but I can't buy them here. The container must be able to go through the door .  The round container I am getting is a free standing koi pond so structurally it is very strong. I think I'll stick with the round one to be honest. I still can't find anything better. I'll be able to access the fish in a round one as well.


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## sciencefiction (18 Sep 2016)

How about light? Is the 30W flood light going to be sufficient? It must penetrate to the bottom too. The specs are as follows:

Power:*30 W*

Voltage:*220-240V AC*

Multi-Voltage:*85-265V AC*

Frequency:*50-60 Hz*

Lumens:*3600 lm*

LED Performance:*120 lm/W*

Beam Angle:* 120 º*

CRI:*85*

Power Factor:*0.96*

IP Protection:*IP65*

Type:*Epistar-SMD2835*

Number of LEDs:*80*

Life Span (hrs):*30,000 Hours*

Working Temperature:*-20ºC ~ +45ºC*

Size:*140x180x40 mm*

Material:*Aluminium*

Diffuser:*Transparent*

Frame:*Black*

Certifications*CE & RoHS*

Warranty*2 Years*

Also, is there any good pond/large tank filtration that I can look into?


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## sciencefiction (18 Sep 2016)

Pic of the clown loaches temporary tub, poor things. They are still kicking though. I never knew how tough these fish are.


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## zozo (18 Sep 2016)

Those botias are also very inteligent and playfull as you already showed in your lovely video's, never saw them dancing to soul music.  Perfect music to show them.
But what you got there already looks very pond like and good.. Maybe a silly idea, all tho i think otherwise have it alread for some time to do one day in the garden. That is to connect several container with aechother with water bridges made from 125mm pvc pipe. I'll make you a small drawing of what i mean. Could be an idea for you.. It's very simple extends their living space to the max and i'm fairly sure botia are certainly fish learning to use it because they love tubes.





So you can use several sizes of any kind of household tubs, crats, boxes what ever you want, like you are using now. The U pipes made from 125mm PVC you hang over the edge connecting the tubs inline, next eachother or accross the room how ever you like. You can make it as playfull as you wish. Fill all tubs with water.. Then take a hose put in inside the U pipes and suck them vacuum.. They fill with water and stay filled with water as long as the ends are fully submersed.

By the law of communicating vessels all tubs will equal out in the same water level.. So this means you actualy only need one filter.. Water you suck out the first tub you fill back into the last tub it always stays equal in level. Next to that you create a sort of linear stream system for them and it will be over all the same water body with the same amount of flow it will never flood nor never drain as long as the pipes are filed and vacuum.. 

You fish are going to love you for it.. I bet you.. And so simple and so cheap to make.. What more do you want??


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## sciencefiction (18 Sep 2016)

Ha, ha. That's a great idea. The clowns love going into any sort of narrow space, pipe, etc.,  so they'll surely explore it. The containers I've got now are not sturdy enough though. The blue one the clowns are in is bulging from the water.


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## zozo (18 Sep 2016)

You could take sevral 100 litre round tubs and just link them thogeter like that. Take as much as you have space for.. I think as you say the fish will love it and don't have to swim in circels all the time and can travel from tub to tub.. They certainly will.


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## Jester (18 Sep 2016)

you could take a look at the blagdon affinity ponds, designed for patios and decking they come in octagon , half octagon, oval octagon and square. they come as complete kits with planting baskets and filters-pumps, iirc, and they have viewing windows around the outside. sorry I don't know how to put a link up?!!


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## sciencefiction (18 Sep 2016)

Thanks Jester. I saw them earlier. They look really nice but I don't know if I trust the design. It's as risky as a glass fish tank. Or at least it looks like it to me.


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## Manisha (18 Sep 2016)

Hi science fiction, sorry about your tanks - sounds like horror stories   Your new project looks interesting ... I've not anything to add - The experts have you covered ☺ except welcome back & thanks for all your advice on snails ☺


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## alto (18 Sep 2016)

I don't know what your budget is looking like, but Affinity Pools - might be worth contacting them & discussing your concerns re leakproof etc
(It would be so nice to have the "View")

You've had awful luck with your tanks but I'll admit that buying used big tanks is always much more of a gamble - re size, people are more likely to have torqued them while moving (this twisting pressure on the seams is also much more of an issue with a big tank that isn't level across the diagonal - of course this is very difficult to tell once tank is filled as it's unlikely to "rock" anymore)
Tanks that have sat empty for an extended time or had any sort of reptiles/rodents are also much more likely to have compromised silicon seals 
It really is rare for tanks to leak when set up level etc


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## sciencefiction (18 Sep 2016)

Hey alto. Thanks a million. I am not worried about the viewing area. Perhaps I can get an underwater camera one day.

The tank that got bust the last time had sat dry in the previous owner so was definitely a bad idea buying it. I was very close to giving away all my fish. I just can't part with the loaches to be honest.

The affinity pools are really nice but not what I am looking for. I am not mad about the look and the liner inside. It doesn't sound leak proof or rigid to me at all. I've had enough from 4 corner tanks. Those things have got multiple corners . And one can do a DIY tank like that for a lot less.

I want a preformed one piece heavy duty plastic container. And I really like the round shape. I just feel like trying something different too. The loaches may not get their recommended min 180 length but 60cm width is pretty narrow for large fish long term too. 60cm height is also pretty much the minimum height for small clown loaches.  I can't imagine that being enough for adult clowns. My large loach tried to do a vertical swim in the 5 footer, but being too shallow, a 50cm tall tank, he nearly got out of it. They'll enjoy the extra bit of depth.

 Unless fish get dizzy when swimming in circles, the perimeter gives a possible length of 380cm to infinity theoretically.   In a rectangular 6f tank they get 180 cm. Do fish get dizzy swimming in circles? I don't know... But apparently the round shape is good for fish that like flow. It is also easier to keep clean via filtration due to the gunk settling right in the middle. It does not develop dead areas like rectangular tanks do. And the large surface area will help as well.

So round I go lads  It's just a matter of time now..


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## foxfish (19 Sep 2016)

I have not read all the post but if I was interested in such a project I would think about a ridgid  structure rather than any type of flexible plastic or rubber.
Fibreglass containers would be my first choice but nylon fish boxes would also be an option, I live on the coast and several boat related stores sell both of those options. 
Another option would be a DIY ply box lined with fiberglass.
I know that round containers will keep live baits alive far longer than square containers, many believe that bowl shape containers are the best of all, our locale sand eel (sea fishing bait) stockist use large fiberglass bowl shape containers to house the fish.
I just feel that any flexible containers would indeed be very prone to flexing and spilling water if nudged.


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## sciencefiction (19 Sep 2016)

Hi foxfish. I am looking for exactly what you are describing. The specs of the round pond I am aiming to buy are as per the below. Its made from MDPE polyethylene. Do you think it can flex?

*Ecosure MDPE Ponds*
Moulded from tank grade polymer for exceptional strength and durability and incorporating the latest UV stabilisation packages, Ecosure ponds are suitable for long-term external use and combine real quality with practical design. They are frost resistant, have high impact strength and are non-toxic to fish. The smooth sides of the pond make cleaning and maintenance easy. These ponds are available in different colours to suit location or to enhance the colours of your fish.


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## PARAGUAY (19 Sep 2016)

Tony Chen the Discus chap has a indoor pond were he keeps all his personal fish,show specimens,you could check this out I can't find it but the article is in a Nathan Hill piece were he visits Tony in Practical Fishkeeping


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## zozo (19 Sep 2016)

I use such a MDPE polyethylene round concrete mixing tub from the hardware store to tempararely storing my goldfish in the winter.. The round ones do not bulg out at 150 litre and 45 cm height.. I also have several square ones which do indeed bulg out if topped with water, but are still to strong to crack.. One way i used to prevent this bulging and to stabalize is using that cheap galvanized steel double loop chain. The ends you can cut to create a hook, wrap it tight around the empty tub, hook 'm and take a piece of chain hooked from left to right over the top in the width of the tub and it cant bulg out.


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## sciencefiction (19 Sep 2016)

I called the seller of the polyethylene round tank above. They said the tank is perfectly fine set up above ground as free standing system. I've seen the polyethylene ones on youtube used in aquaponics. They don't look flexible to me but what do I know. As foxfixh mentioned, apparently round shape is the best for fish and I want to try a round tank.

 I found a place selling fiberglass round koi tanks for a reasonable price but they are only 35cm deep They are advertised as koi ponds. That's barely deep enough for my tiny corydoras...I was so disappointed. The woman on the phone said they don't do deeper because there's no demand for deeper..???Lol How come?


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## zozo (19 Sep 2016)

sciencefiction said:


> Lol How come?



People like to enjoy looking at their fish sitting next to the pond.. If it's to deep they wont see much in the view angle if you sit.. At least that's my best guess and only practical reason i can think off.. Noticed it myself once when i sat beside such a rather very shallow setup myself that it was a pleasant view. If it is constantly pleasant for the fish i do not know.. Guess not always, when it's it's very warm weather.


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## sciencefiction (19 Sep 2016)

Yes, I guess it is viewing reasons but practically, for the sake of the fish, that sounds too shallow.


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## alto (19 Sep 2016)

sciencefiction said:


> iberglass round koi tanks for a reasonable price but they are only 35cm deep


I've only seen these used as sale tanks - ie short term living arrangement with excellent viewing/photographing of sale fish - large fish might be transferred over for a photoshoot etc
but no koi would thrive for long in such a shallow set up (if company is actually selling them as such, I'd report to animal welfare  - if placed outdoors the rapid/extreme temperature shifts would be a cruelty)

(note those affinity ponds also come in a plain rectangle  - not that I'm trying to convince you of them, I just liked the rectangle the best of the lot  )

You can always pick up some of those underwater pond lights as they'd make great fish viewing (when main light is off)


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## sciencefiction (19 Sep 2016)

The website just says "*Round Fibreglass Pond".  *How can that be used as a koi pond is beyond me.



alto said:


> note those affinity ponds also come in a plain rectangle  - not that I'm trying to convince you of them, I just liked the rectangle the best of the lot



Ha, ha alto. I like how they look too. I just cant' deal with the pond liner thing  I can't make myself trusting such a set up.
The polyethylene round tanks are used in aquaculture and aquaponics so they must be good enough containers. I of course prefer fiberglass... Who wouldn't want a lifetime guarantee 
 The polyethylene ponds are produced in bigger sizes too, over 5000 litre, so if the material can hold 5000, it will surely hold 900 litre without flexing.  They are perfectly fine as above ground ponds. The woman on the phone said they are also high impact resistant. In her words she said that unless you drive a car or exercise similar force against them, they should be fine. The manufacturer's warranty is 10 years too which is good enough to me.


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## sciencefiction (22 Sep 2016)

Hey everyone. The tank is now ordered. So are the lights and the gooseneck for it.

I am excited that my fish will finally be back in a larger home. I would love to see them dancing up and down the sides again. Fingers crossed it goes ok for them. They have not been lucky owner wise.  I am a little bit apprehensive at the same time because 900 litres of water sounds like a lot to me.... but at least that means healthier tank considering that the bioload won't be that much for the size of it.

I just gave the clowns some bloodworms. That's the only time I see a bit of them since they've been in the plastic containers. One of them was hiding in a big bunch of anubias.....

I am going to have to move all smaller plastic tanks in that room away in order to place the large one which will take quite some space because of its shape. The idea is that I move all the fish into this one.  I am going to shut down my two remaining small glass tanks also...

I can't make up my mind if I want to put a soil layer under the sand or just place whatever plants I want in pots with soil....I also have tons of anubias and I noticed the clowns really like to hide in it. I do want underwater plants but on another hand it is so much easier just to stick to emersed... and keep the bottom clean enough.

Long term I am also looking forward to getting some fish for the top layer. Right now with the exception of a few surviving platies, all my fish are bottom fish...I may have to get un underwater camera sooner than later....


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## alto (22 Sep 2016)

Congratulations - decisions cam be so difficult

Which lights have you ordered?



sciencefiction said:


> They have not been lucky owner wise


Disagree X a million 

Your fish have a very dedicated/interested/caring special person 
You've been plagued with awful luck in tanks & haven't given up your fish when it would've been the far easier thing to do!


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## sciencefiction (23 Sep 2016)

Thanks for the encouraging reply alto.



alto said:


> Which lights have you ordered?



I ordered a flood light (http://www.ledkia.com/uk/buy-ultras...tml#/colour-temperaturecool-white-6000k-6500k) and a kessil gooseneck to hold it. Hopefully that will do the trick but I'll have to see.


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## sciencefiction (23 Sep 2016)

I received the flood light today. It looks really good quality. I can't test it yet because it needs the power cord but I am impressed. I hope the looks justify the performance but I am pretty certain it will. It is far from ugly as well. I'll take pictures at some stage when I start setting everything up.


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## alto (24 Sep 2016)

It didn't come with a power cord 

LED considerations:
- does warranty cover any LED loss, or do you need to experience 20% - 30% "burnout" before the warranty kicks in?
(they aren't hugely expensive so easy enough to replace ... just curious to know warranty details)
- Epistar-SMD2835 (I was going to ask that question & found the answer  ) 
- 30watt / 80LED / 30 000 hours so I'd expect PAR at 45cm depth to be low & pretty much inadequate at 73cm - that should answer question re what to plant at the substrate level 
If the lens was 60* - 90* you'd get some depth penetration back but then beam is narrow so you'd need 2-3 lamps over the pond (don't know if it's possible to change out the lens on these) - you may still want additional lamps depending on what/where you want to plant  

I agree it looks decent even in the website photo 

Given this light, I'd be inclined to just use a couple cm's sand bottom (clowns & cory's will appreciate some substrate) & then start plants at about mid depth
Depending on the plastic used, Eheim suction cups may still stick like the devil, so you can just screw these onto your wood as Tropica has done in their "Bankwood"  or if you've a large piece of wood that can be lodged across the pond diameter etc & then plant from there
You can also hang planters from the top of the rim of course but choose materials carefully to avoid fish havoc
I'm sure that zozo has much better ideas on this than I


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## sciencefiction (24 Sep 2016)

Hey alto. Thanks a million for your comments.

I was only hopeful it would do the trick but the knowledge on my side is lacking. I don't mind getting a second one or a different one... Is there one you'd recommend that I can look into maybe? It has to be flood light wise or anything that can be attached to a gooseneck and won't kill the bank although I can afford a range of prices as long as it can light up my plants sufficiently

The onus is on external plants so I hope that gives enough of light for them for now. I got 3 of those round baskets zozo/Marcel suggested. I have plenty of my old ones too. The more plants on top, the better for my fish because I am going to be using filtration way below what I would do in a smaller tank.

Edit: By the way I threw most of my driftwood in the heat of the moment after the last tank broke. I whish I had it now...The bottom will be  sand for sure. I might use the manzanita wood I bought and never used. It cost me a fortune years ago....


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## alto (24 Sep 2016)

re filter - you only need enough biomedia for your fish load - which sounds fairly low to me at the moment, you'll need to see what happens with your clowns in the new larger space (& watch out for them suddenly taking  tankmates that they previously ignored - feed small (?) meals frequently when you move them, also maybe check on LOL to see what others have fed/observed in similar circumstance) & then debris collection
Flow can be sorted separately

I'm pretty basic on the LED's - I suspect that Marcel can better suggest some brands
1watt LED is the minimum you'd want for a 50cm depth/height tank with 3watt LED being able to pretty much "grow anything"
Given the 73cm height, I'd look for 90* lens rather than 120*, & see what's available in the 2-3 watt (high intensity) LED


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## sciencefiction (24 Sep 2016)

The idea of this tank is to keep my current surviving fish for their life span. or at least until something better comes out on the market, or they die because of mistreatment, despite my best intentions.   My loaches went through hell from a normal tank to a hugely overstocked tank that killed many, to small plastic containers.

As a matter of fact I hated them when I first got them some years back (not my idea whatsoever but I became the life time carer).  Over the years when I got to know their character, I started adoring them.  They are smart fish, as smart as a cat or a dog can be. They chase a laser beam and they learn what time the lights go off, or the dinner comes and which side of the  tank it goes into. It took them years to overcome their fear of me. They used to hide the moment I walked into the room. For a period of time it was difficult to look at them even for a moment and impossible to get a picture or a video. Then at some stage they relaxed and got completely friendly with me coming to my hand like puppies. The strange thing is though they never ran away from my dog who used to stick her nose to the glass and lick it. They totally ignored her, and at the same time they feared me..... And they have really bad and long memory. The moment you have to handle them physically by grabbing them, they don't forget for a good while...I can't blame them.

I am actually aware that the 120 spread is too wide. Flood light wise it is pretty impossible to get anything with better penetration and less spread. At least with this shape of tank, if I point the light in the middle, it will pretty much illuminate the entire tank without too much light spill.

 But as you say, it won't be enough at the bottom of the tank. It is going to be a deep enough tank specs wise although I am not intending to keep it topped up to the surface because of the planting baskets. But it will be pretty much deeper than majority of glass tanks out there.

P.S. Sorry for the rambling...


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## sciencefiction (24 Sep 2016)

Filter wise I am still in a dilemma what I want and what is best....I'll start the tank with what I have currently,  which is a few external and internal filters but I need something more practical long term...I've no idea yet....Any suggestions are very welcome...


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## alto (24 Sep 2016)

Rambling is always good


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## alto (24 Sep 2016)

sciencefiction said:


> Filter wise I am still in a dilemma


look at sumps of course
 - they're not for me - the trickle drives me mad - but they are incredibly versatile

Again Marcel has gone off & done his usual mad DIY skillz versions
(I've no DIY skills at all  )


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## Alex J (24 Sep 2016)

Only  if you have three hours spare to read someones reply to a simple question 


alto said:


> Rambling is always good


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## alto (24 Sep 2016)

what   

 there's a _simple_ question


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## zozo (24 Sep 2016)

If you can hold a drill your good to go, much more skill isn't to it.. 


If you put plants at the top, you got as Darrel says the Rolls Royce of filters..


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## foxfish (24 Sep 2016)

LOL, the concept is sound but the equipment is asking for a disaster, especially when we are trying to avoid flooding at all cost


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## sciencefiction (24 Sep 2016)

He, he foxfish. Yes. Priority is to avoid flooding again.

Zozo, thats easy enough for me to attemt but I'd only try it on my 50l tank. 50 litres of water is like nothing to me these days


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## zozo (24 Sep 2016)

foxfish said:


> LOL, the concept is sound but the equipment is asking for a disaster, especially when we are trying to avoid flooding at all cost



Preventing flooding is not something related to the used material as long as it is water tight.. Tho what's used in the video aslo would'nt be my choice it indeed looks all a bit to wimsy, i would go for stackable hard pvc crates/boxes and build something in simular concept.. A sump if calculated and constructed corectly should have no risk of flooding..  The pump should never pump out more water than the tank or pond can take if the drainage stops and the level of drainage should never be more then the volume of the sump. Calculating the volumes visa versa is all to it.. That's not a diy but more a math skill.


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## sciencefiction (24 Sep 2016)

I was looking into making a skippy filter. Then I thought that by the time I find and get all the parts, make it myself, etc...I might as well buy myself a filter instead. I am thinking now of getting a Fluval FX6.  It may blow the shrimp away though  My cheapo all pond solutions filters are still running perfectly fine but its time for an upgrade


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## sciencefiction (30 Sep 2016)

I am fairly disappointed today. I missed the tank delivery yesterday. I re-arranged for today and no one came. The delivery guy had his phone switched off..The weekend would have been a nice time to set it up.


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## sciencefiction (2 Oct 2016)

I went out yesterday to buy sand for the tank. I couldn't resist and I awarded myself with two tiny cute clown loaches. Yey  I've been itching to do that for a while...

They are now doing flaps in my small tank with the khuli loaches and 3 corys. In fact, the corys have joined them and the tank is buzzing. They were very pale in the plastic bag but coloured up immediately upon putting in the tank after acclimating and started cracking snails, or trying to because the are too small to break the shells of the bigger ones 

I'll quarantine them for a couple of months before adding them with the bigger boys.


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## sciencefiction (2 Oct 2016)

Oh, and they were so hungry they snap the pellets from the surface


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## sciencefiction (2 Oct 2016)

Please excuse the tank's messy look. My plants are again iron deficient.


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## sciencefiction (2 Oct 2016)

The strange background noise is the dog eating


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## sciencefiction (4 Oct 2016)

Well, I finally arranged delivery of the tank for tomorrow. I can't wait to see it.


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## sciencefiction (4 Oct 2016)

I don't know why I call it a tank. The delivery guy called it a "drum" and a "big bucket"


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## sciencefiction (5 Oct 2016)

Waiting, waiting, waiting  I am a bit scared to see it, lol  I promise exclusive pictures


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## sciencefiction (5 Oct 2016)




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## sciencefiction (5 Oct 2016)

in a moment


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## sciencefiction (5 Oct 2016)

It was fun cleaning it. I was able to get inside comfortably.

I quite like it. It looks very sturdy.

A few downsides...

I found out I don't have enough sand. Also, no suction cups stick to that polyethylene whatsoever. My plant baskets are redundant right now.

The gooseneck also doesn't fit around the lip but I haven't connected the flood light to it yet anyway. I've hanged it somehow temporarily and I'll think about what I am going to do with the light exactly. It's not sufficient anyway.


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## sciencefiction (5 Oct 2016)




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## sciencefiction (5 Oct 2016)

That's not a scape of any sort.  It's not going to be a one day job. This thing is huge. It looks way bigger than in the pictures.


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## sciencefiction (5 Oct 2016)

That plant is not blown by the wind but being attached with zip ties


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## sciencefiction (6 Oct 2016)

Wow guys....Just finished moving the fish and the plants. I am delighted for my fish.

I herded the loaches in a plastic jug one by one because I couldn't find the large net. The only one that got very stressed is the one that had lodged himself in the wood and I had to carry him over with it.  The rest took immediately to exploring the tank and if I knew fish any better, I'd say they are quite excited right now, waving tails like puppies..

They took a 2'C drop because I can't wait any longer and it took hours to heat the water. I ran out of hot water while filling the tank....It's not filled to the very top because I don't want anyone to jump out. Right now it's about 58cm water height and 650-700l of water. I think it's plenty for a pleco and 7 loaches that look tiny in this tank...

I also disconnected the spraybar on one of my cheapo all pond solutions filters and oh, wow, that filter does actually have quite the flow. But it's making too much noise because the outlet was above the water so I slowed it down with another plastic turn. I must buy something better than what I have..

Anyways good night. Hopefully the fish will be fine after this final move for them, hopefully....for a while anyway...


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## sciencefiction (6 Oct 2016)

Good morning.

I got up earlier than usual, can't sleep from excitement 

A few good points already noticed:

The clowns behave as if they were set free... It's definitely a win with them. They in fact do swim around the perimeter of the tank as well as exploring it. I think they are totally enjoying the shape of the tank. I was hoping to see their dance antiques sooner than later....They are doing it right now...

And the fact that they can't see me, actually works out better because I can see them extremely well. A chair next to the tank and a cup of coffee right now 

I calculated that the surface area of this tank is roughly 23% more than that of a 6x2x2 tank.

The water flow does go in a circle and the debris settles right in the middle. There are bits of plant roots that got loose from the move.

I can reach all sides of the tank comfortably.

The tank does not bulge, flex or bend in any way. It looks and feels pretty solid. The water level is perfect and I am quite pleased with the purchase. It wasn't the cheapest option despite not being a glass tank but still cheaper than one that size. 

I wish I had done this years ago


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## alto (6 Oct 2016)

Sounds awesome 



though I was rather expecting a pic of you in the "drum"   


sciencefiction said:


> I was able to get inside comfortably.


after that lead in


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## dw1305 (6 Oct 2016)

Hi all, 





sciencefiction said:


> My plant baskets are redundant right now.


Could you hook them over the edge with stainless steel hangers or wire?

<"Stainless Steel Butcher's Hook?"> that sort of thing?

cheers Darrel


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## zozo (6 Oct 2016)

If you look in the hardware store for chain links.. There number of diferent designs and sizes
..



 
Can't find a pic of those shaped like an 8 which are open and should be closed with a pair of pliers.. 

But the cheapest option i've always used myself in the garden for things like that is Victor Chain..


 

With a pair of nippers you can make your own little hooks to hang things to it..  like this


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## sciencefiction (6 Oct 2016)

The ones i have are smallones, made from hard plastic with holes at the bottom only. They are not going to work. 

The big kidney shaped ones I bought from ebay are not even worth the try. They are too fragile. One split while i was washing the clay pebbles in it. I dont think they can hold much weight, surely not soil.

But I saw good ones in Woodies that come with a plastic hanger. I just need to drill holes in them for the water flow.


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## sciencefiction (6 Oct 2016)

I came back home and noticed the clowns have done some re-arrangements....Apparently what I did last night wasn't good enough. 

They've got some hiding caves, e.g. tubes made from an old siphon and they've carried them around the place. Yesterday when I was watching them explore, if one went into the tube, the rest followed one by one pushing the one in front out. Some of the clowns don't really fit properly in them anymore so they must have dragged them on their backs  Two of my anubias were also moved half a meter away...

I'll take some pics or a video later. It's looking rough plant wise right now. I still have the BBA on the anubias as it got destroyed in the previous tank.  I'll see how it fares.. Also, when I set up the previous plastic tub I planted a couple of crypts in pots. I noticed last night when I moved them that they've grown quite a few new leaves. I think I'll plant all underwater plants in pots. It's pretty handy and I can move them around.. I want to concentrate on emersed plants. It will look way better in this tank.

Oh, and this time the clowns must have eaten all the shrimp I had moved with them in the previous plastic tub. I found none at all. Then again I fed the clowns twice max three times a week....I can't blame them.

Also, floating plants. I must get some from somewhere...I haven't had any for a while now.


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## sciencefiction (6 Oct 2016)

So these are my small plant pots that attach via suction cups. They are quite good on glass but not on plastic. The mesh basket is the ebay kidney basket. I've done a pretty bad temporary diy job just to hold the plants somehow. But if I fill that basket with substrate it will fall apart.



 

The ones I want to check out in Woodies are these: http://www.woodiesdiy.com/Product/green-basics-easy-hanger-large/36290/4.8.2


And some nice BBA covered anubias, lol


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## sciencefiction (7 Oct 2016)




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## Manisha (7 Oct 2016)

sciencefiction said:


>




Your fish look very happy in their new set up - your project seems very successful!


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## sciencefiction (7 Oct 2016)

Thanks Manisha. They do seem to be over the moon with it. Poor things went trough a lot in the last year.


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## zozo (7 Oct 2016)

Looking realy nice... Also very much fun for you to see your fish from an other perspective, from above i mean..


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## sciencefiction (7 Oct 2016)

Yes Marcel. It is actually quite a fun because they cant really see me and dont get spooked. I can see their normal behaviour when they think no one is around


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## zozo (7 Oct 2016)

I know all about it from my bathtub in the garden.. It is realy relaxing sitting back from it watching what they are all up to.. With any fish they behave indeed totaly different in a pond setup than in a glass tank.. This year i builded a 3 story cave structure for them with flat stones stackep upon eachother.. Was fun to see them spiral around and through the holes chasing eachother and use the different floors to hide..

I got a same kind of setup as yours in the garden with that cut in half winebarel (Mission bathtub journal).. Also have that kidny shaped basket planted and use small pump with a sponge prefilter and a hose to the basket.. Perfect planted biofilter, plants grow like crazy.. Depending on the plants used it will grow a large wig off (hair) roots throught the basket hanging down, which is also a very nice place for them to hide and probably feed on it as well.. I did put cyprus grass in it and a few others.. I'll take it out soon to see myself how big it grew and make a pic of it.


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## sciencefiction (8 Oct 2016)

zozo said:


> I know all about it from my bathtub in the garden.. It is realy relaxing sitting back from it watching what they are all up to.. With any fish they behave indeed totaly different in a pond setup than in a glass tank..



I wasn't worried about not seeing the fish. I just wanted them to be happy. But now I can see them even better than before  And the thing with the chair, the coffee and fish not being bothered by me being there and staring at them  is just great. This is not normally a problem with majority of fish but clown loaches are shy. The times when they think they are not observed are the best. Most of my previous videos are on zoom and from a distance...

 Last night I was poking around to fix the anubias plants they had moved and they were swimming around my hands. I think just because of the extra space they feel more confident. If I ever have to catch them again, which I did 5 times during this last year, I am going to have to get inside this tank. There's no catching other wise...no corners to be cornered into  And I think they know it already....


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## sciencefiction (8 Oct 2016)

Light on


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## mort (8 Oct 2016)

It's interesting to see the new behaviour. I have a group of 8 that are 20 years + and they behave the same way you described earlier, ie only using a small portion of the tank. 
Keep us updated to see if they go back to the way they were when the fun of exploring lessens or if they stay the same. You might even get them to become more bold with some dither fish.


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## sciencefiction (8 Oct 2016)

mort said:


> It's interesting to see the new behaviour. I have a group of 8 that are 20 years +




Picture or a video please  I'd love to see adult loaches like that.



mort said:


> Keep us updated to see if they go back to the way they were when the fun of exploring lessens or if they stay the same. You might even get them to become more bold with some dither fish.



Yes, the excitement can wear of in time. I was watching them until late hours last night. They were all over the place....
I am going to add some dither fish at some stage, but totally not sure what I want and it won't happen any time soon.

I got the clowns a large pvc pipe today to add to their hiding places.
 And I got the baskets from Woodie's. They had only 2 black ones so I got 3 grey ones as well which is a bit disappointing. Now I need to do a bit of drilling and pot a few plants.

I am going to try a paprika tree I have. I grew some seedlings recently and that plant loves water. It may not work out but I'll give it a try


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## mort (8 Oct 2016)

I'll try and remember to add some pics/vid later.


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## sciencefiction (8 Oct 2016)

Just found one of the baby loaches on the floor dead already. He must have jumped out I did think about putting the tank cover....It was the lively fellow that first caught my eye in the shop and I got the second one to keep him company during quarantine...


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## sciencefiction (8 Oct 2016)

I put the plants in the new baskets. It didn't really work out that well because the hangers don't keep the pots straight and the clay pebbles are literally floating. Which means the roots have nothing to hold on to. But it sort of works for now. Those three plants don't need any substrate anyway.  I've to see if I can straighten them out somehow though.

I also got a fern to try out. I've no idea what it's called. It's the one under the palm tree on the picture below.

The loaches couldn't wait for me to finish  messing up with the tank. I know I am repeating myself, but its so nice seeing them so lively and swimming in an out of things.


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## tim (9 Oct 2016)

This looks great sciencefiction, great to see the clowns with so much room.


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## sciencefiction (9 Oct 2016)

Thanks Tim. It's a relief.


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## sciencefiction (9 Oct 2016)

I figured out a way how to place the baskets upright by using the stuff that came for my arcadia stretch lights.  It worked quite well to straighten the basket so it can hold soil without it floating to the top and making a mess. I think the peace lilies don't care about the abundance of water and floating substrate but for terrestrials like the paprika I don't want to try without some solid substrate.

So here are my newly planted peppers/paprika...

It's a bit intrusive to the eye but who is going to see


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## dw1305 (9 Oct 2016)

Hi all, 





sciencefiction said:


> I also got a fern to try out. I've no idea what it's called.


It could be <"_Nephrolepis exaltata">.
_
cheers Darrel


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## Manisha (10 Oct 2016)

sciencefiction said:


> Just found one of the baby loaches on the floor dead already. He must have jumped out I did think about putting the tank cover....It was the lively fellow that first caught my eye in the shop and I got the second one to keep him company during quarantine...



Sorry to hear  My lfs that specialises in pond & koi use corregated plastic to raise the sides of the tanks, it doesnt look attractive but seems effective. 
Before this was in place, we were there & there was a recent 'jumper' on the floor  it was returned to the tank & presumably recovered but my daughter worried on subsequent visits about 'getting fish in her hair'  Luckily this hasn't happened...


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## sciencefiction (10 Oct 2016)

Thanks Manisha. The baby loach was in another tank which I keep open top and its also rimless... I had done a water change and filled the tank right to the top....Then i went for a snooze and when i got up the clow had already died. I would have heard him had i not gone to bed..  
Fortunately the larger clowns never tried jumping out of the plastic tubs or the previous tank which was open top. I think with age they sort of know there is no way out. ..

It would be a very difficult task for them to jump out of the poly tank and generally they are not jumpers. The little felow was acting very hyper... the reason i bought him in the first place  .


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## alto (10 Oct 2016)

Commiserations on the loss - poor fishy 



sciencefiction said:


> I had done a water change and filled the tank right to the top....


That's what I blamed it on as well ... but thinking back, I'd had the water level same height on numerous occasions (this was my all time favorite Betta - a fancy show plakat with HUGE personality) ... upon further reflection I realized he was possibly startled by a late night reader  

I managed to find another Betta that is likely from the same breeder re distinctive color pattern & similar personality... very outgoing & not fussed at all by his long trip overseas & then home to mine 
- not as wildly flamboyant as F but still a very cheerful fellow
In contrast the other show plakats (also just arrived) were very skittish, went back a few days later & they are still very skittish (though in apparent excellent health)

I hope you manage to find your newly single baby clown another mate


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## sciencefiction (10 Oct 2016)

alto said:


> I hope you manage to find your newly single baby clown another mate



Next time I go to the shop, I'll grab another one. I may even take two of them  as they are so much smaller than my other clowns....they may need each other's company to grow up a bit, considering the slow growth...Although I had good success before buying a young baby loach and adding to the group...He fitted right in... although he was as long as the tail of the biggest loach I have...He also jumped out of that same tank while in quarantine, only that I was in the room, heard the flaps and I picked him up straight away.So he survived... He never tried jumping out again....He and the rest then lived for over a year afterwards in an open top tank when the original broke and then in the plastic tubs recently....I felt too confident unfortunately. Never say never..

It's really sickening when this happens. Sorry to hear about your betta.

If I hadn't laid my eyes on this little loach in the shop, he'd still be alive. He/she was so cute and full of life


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## sciencefiction (10 Oct 2016)

I took the video below Saturday night. I might as well post it. At around 1:02 one can see a slightly closer view of my two larger fatties. I never measured them but the biggest guy doesn't fully fit nose to tail in a 15cm tube so I am guessing he's passed 7 inch now. He literally mops all the food and I think that's why they grow to different sizes....He hasn't even lost any weight while I fed them like twice a week for the last couple of months..

This morning, when I turned the room light on where the tank is, I see one of the loaches laying on his side right on the sand  He was so funny...They sleep like this but normally inside their hiding places.....

To be honest, I am not very eager in getting any dither fish unless its really needed. I'd rather have more loaches. If the clowns get too skittish living without top dwellers, then I'll see...I am not really a fan of fish that just go back and forth without any aim whatsoever....I really like the behaviour of the Siamese algae eaters(if you happen to get the real ones) They had a few in the shop and they were hilarious. I almost bought the two they had left...They'd do a good job of the BBA too....But are they the right tank mates?...I don't know...I am not a fan of schooling fish that just swim back and forth aimlessly and always get drawn to some odd and rather ugly fish 

On another note, the bristlenose pleco is rediscovering his fins.... He was seen literally surfing the sides of the tank horizontally attached, no joke.


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## alto (10 Oct 2016)

Most rasboras display interesting behaviours - start with 18 - 25 individuals with a good mix of male & female
Barbs can also be fun tankmates with clowns - in the shop tank the young clowns would swim with the tiger barbs  



sciencefiction said:


> If I hadn't laid my eyes on this little loach in the shop, he'd still be alive. He/she was so cute and full of life


or he might've leapt out of the shop tank too ... or gone home with someone else & leapt from their tank ...
of course none of this "logic" has stopped me moping about F


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## sciencefiction (11 Oct 2016)

Look at that loach so comfortably snugged in the driftwood....This morning one of them was in there but with his head sticking out instead of the tail


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## sciencefiction (11 Oct 2016)

I think the paprika baby plants have perked up a bit since planting. I was comparing the pictures from just after being planted and today and they look a lot greener to me  I planted the seeds in a window sill pot and plants just don't do too well there because there's little light during winter. Other than that they are planted in the exact same soil with that difference that these are now soaking in water from the tank....

I had a look at the ones that are left on the window sill pot and they don't look as good as the ones in the tank....I think those below are really perking up in the warm, wet and bright conditions...

This paprika plant grows like a tree with quite a sturdy stalk...It's not particularly beautiful as a plant but it is capable of flowering all year round and the chillies it produces are not very hot, quite tasty.

Paprika just after being moved to the tank

 


A few days later in the tank.....It's not a camera trick. My camera is set to auto but the first picture is taken from a distance and I cropped it to show a better view. The second is close shot from today. Anyway....I hope the plant does well...I want to try some other useful plants to see how it goes..


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## sciencefiction (12 Oct 2016)

"No one can see me"


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## sciencefiction (13 Oct 2016)

I planted a bunch of crypts in small pots, around 8 altogether




And a pot with stem plants for a bit of colour..





These two I planted a couple of months ago when I moved the clown loaches from the 80l to the 130l plastic tub. They've produced some growth but its a very green colour, unusual for the crypt. You can see the old growth is dark red. I think its the lack of light I had over there for the most part. The point is, they do well in low light and seemingly don't mind the pot although they do grow very long roots...I had to curl them like spaghetti inside the pots.


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## sciencefiction (13 Oct 2016)

The buggers have been messing up with my pots. They knocked two already...


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## sciencefiction (14 Oct 2016)

I am compensating for all the months I didn't feel like posting, ha, ha.

The excitement will wear off, plus I happen to be off so paying a lot of attention to the fish and tank.....for a change...

Anyway, couple of updates. The baby clown loach is doing well on his own. He's eating and looks healthy. I don't know whether I want to up the school of clown loaches to more than the 8 in total than I have now because one they these fish will be big. So perhaps that the limit unless I go really huge on a tank...And what do I want as companions....I just want something different and interesting....

On a negative note, I saw a couple of the adult loaches flash. I think its to do with water quality now that they are again in an immature enough tank, although I moved very established filters, their sand that was in the plastic tub,  and all the plants. I hope its nothing to worry about. Time will tell...I am keeping an eye...I did a large water change and also overdosed on prime. The water should get better in no time.. Their immune system must be stressed after months in plastic tubs and an overstocked tank previously...Tough fish and I hope they stay that way....

Yesterday I noticed them exhibit "shadowing" behaviour....That's when a small loach gets firmly attached to a larger one with its nose stuck just behind the eye of the other one. It really annoys the clown loach that's been pestered like that. Here is a video of it...though not very clear it becomes visible at some stage...Pay attention to the large loach.... Why clown loaches do that is not really known for sure...




I am probably paying too much attention and noticing tiny boring details but the plants seem to be doing fine with the amount of light they get right now. I keep the blinds open during the day and the emersed plants get both some tank light and natural light.

Here are some pics:

First from the anubias flower....Its a bad picture because its distorted from the filter flow but gives the idea....


 


The paprika has two new tiny leaves already....so cute.. Those on the window sill are being left behind...


 


New growth on the palm who suffered quite a setback for a while. It grew above the tank light in the other tank and it started getting leaf die off. Its perking up now. It's still just getting window light but I plan to increase the light for the emersed plants in due time...


 

And one of the lilies which also needs recovering....I've got to get them flowering again...


 


I also put some crypts in the baskets around the roots of the emersed plants when I set up the tank because I didn't want them floating around the tank and didn't have anywhere to plant them at the time. I am noticing them growing new leaves...


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## sciencefiction (14 Oct 2016)

I was taking pictures of the kuhli loaches as I hadn't in a long long time. They live in a small tank now, the lot 5(if all are still alive) under a coconut cave. I used to have 8 of them but 100% of their tank poured on the floor. This was a proper accident with a kettle falling and cracking the glass. I actually found one of the missing 3 months later all dried up...

Anyway, I was just about snapping shots when I see this orange face on the camera 


 

Then he charges for the pellet...


 

Loach competition..


 


A bit short of room....how to I get there 



 


 Them cables are always in the way... but I am so cute


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## Manisha (14 Oct 2016)

sciencefiction said:


> The buggers have been messing up with my pots. They knocked two already...


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## sciencefiction (18 Oct 2016)

I've been looking at 6 Denison barbs/rose line sharks in the shop for the last couple of weeks now. They are in the same tank as the small clown loaches they sell.

Does anyone have any experience with them? What are they like, except for quite expensive? They look like a bunch of actively schooling fish and perhaps could be good dithers for clown loaches?...I am not sure they are worth the price though... In a tank like mine I don't care about the looks much but just something interesting to watch which is also suitable as tank mates for clown loaches.. I read they come from the same side of the world as the clowns..


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## sciencefiction (21 Oct 2016)

Well, I got a new external. I went to the local shop to have a look at the denison barbs again and came back with a filter instead. 

They had the JBL crystalprofi e1901 on sale so I got it Lets hope its good enough. I am mostly interested in the low energy consumption and also supporting the local business


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## sciencefiction (21 Oct 2016)

The filter is set up and going. Yey  The lot theoretically will turn over 6000l/h which I think is plenty for now. 
I set up the new filter with the spraybar in vertical position.  I read that round tanks need a horizontal and vertical flow to achieve best flow pattern.

The filter is nice but just ok-ish considering the price difference with my APS-s.  I am not majorly impressed but I like its simplicity and lack of fancy parts that can break. It's almost as similar as my APS's lol, but not as ugly....I am not sure it was worth the investment 

And I forgot how much I hate their inlets and outlets. I used them for my Eheim filter once. They just didn't last and cracked up from the pressure of the Eheim.  I've never seen inlets and outlets crack apart from the JBL ones. I also had the JBL hoses and the 16-22 size was very soft and was easily bent. The 1901 JBL filter uses the bigger hose size and they feel sturdier at least.....

I bought it on a whim after thinking to buy the FX6 all along....But I read that in a tank with sand, due to the pump being at the bottom, the FX6 tends to fail due to sand bits getting into the pump...So a no no for a sand lover...

Now I have a spare Eheim filter  I wonder if 1250l/h is too much for a 50l or 80l tank  And stupid me bought the nice grey Eheim inlet/outlet set and now I am not going to use it


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## sciencefiction (21 Oct 2016)

When in the shop, I also wanted to get a couple of baby clowns for my lonely one. There was one super skinny one dying in there, won't last a few hours I reckon and others on the way of getting skinny. The actual person that looks after the shop(the owner) wasn't there for the last few weeks and his brother was covering for him. He's got no clue whatsoever...poor man...But the owner is back now so hopefully it will get better.

So I was afraid to get more clown loaches and the Denison barbs are in the same tank too, although they still look healthy....There were a few quite healthy looking clown loach babies, full belly and grown a bit since I saw them the last time but my clown looks way healthier than them having spent his time away  

So no new fish....such a pity....I am so scared of fish diseases, it stops me from buying fish It's probably a good thing. I might set up a plastic tub for quarantine in the following weeks. I can't decide whether I want to pro-actively de-worm the fish or just quarantine and wait...All I want is 6-7 large enough interesting schooling fish, that are not timid and can do well with clown loaches.

Also, I saw rainbow fish in one of the tanks. They were so cute, they were following my finger. Their colours were quite washed out.  What do you guys think of them as clown loach tank mates? I am guessing they will colour up in better conditions? They were in a tank of their own with plants and I know they don't have their tanks connected on one filtration.


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## sciencefiction (22 Oct 2016)

I forgot to add earlier in regards to the JBL filter. The media it came with is mostly sponges and I've incorporated the same on my older filters after trial and error over the years..

 It's the best media ever in my opinion if one cares for clear water and bio-capability at the same time. The importance is to put coarse and medium sponges only, nothing fine. They never ever obstruct the flow months after not being cleaned and they keep the water visually cleaner than any other fancy media too... I normally have just one layer of ceramics of some sort and that's exactly what this filter comes with...Several layers of sponges with one layer of ceramics.....It's like they read my mind 

It just saved me some time of cutting sponges to fit the baskets, that's all...


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## sciencefiction (22 Oct 2016)




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## sciencefiction (24 Oct 2016)

Another video of my fish from a closer view. They were begging for food so they come over to "my side" to get attention.
The big guy dwarves the rest of my clowns a bit.


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## sciencefiction (24 Oct 2016)

The tank had some biofilm issue the first two weeks. I siphoned out as much as I could at water change.
It seems that its completely gone now for the last week, meaning the tank chemistry is heading in the right direction.

The new filter has been driving me nuts expelling air for the last 3 days. I might have to re-open it tomorrow evening if it doesn't stop after the severe shake I gave it today. I don't think it primed correctly in the first place because I barely managed to get the water to fill the pipes...I was pressing that prime button like a lunatic and it wouldn't get it going. Imagine what I was thinking about the filter at that moment 

I regret a bit I didn't clean the anubias from the BBA because it seems now it is growing really well, new leaves all around on each plant. But the BBA isn't spreading and I noticed lifeless tuffs falling off the old leaves. If everything goes well, it should disappear eventually.

The only one of my fancier plants surviving the light and bba issues in the last few years is the crinum calamistratum. It's leaves are extremely long normally but they too got covered in BBA in the previous tank. It has thrown a new leaf so we'll see if it recovers.

The new potted crypts have not grown at all yet. But this particular crypt takes its time to establish and then if all ok, explodes all of a sudden.

The stem plants I planted in one pot have grown too but I think they may need a bit more light to do well. They came from a soil tank with about 21W of light  high power leds over 80l of water so the current 30W of flood light over 700l of water isn't going to cut it for them. The ludwiga was nice and pink when I potted it. The new growth is green and it is struggling a bit. I am not sure I want too many stem plants in that tank anyway, too much hassle to trim or repot.  So I'll see whether to increase the light or not in time....

Now its time to add more emersed plants but I can't make up my mind what else I want to pot. Its easy picking nice looking plants but I wanted something practical and fruitful as well


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## mort (25 Oct 2016)

Looking good bud. Glad the clowns have settled and sorry you lost the little one. I lost one of my big ones the other day. It was covered in little ulcers then developed cloudy eyes during the bacterial treatment. I think it may be old age as it was 24. Had to top the tank off after I removed it as it was just under 10". It the first fish I've lost for years so pretty gutted about it.

I wouldn't advise the denison barbs for your tank, not because they wouldn't be good tank mates for clowns but because they prefer cooler water.


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## sciencefiction (25 Oct 2016)

Thanks Mort.
Really sorry to hear about your clown loach.

 I noticed the temperature requirement for the barbs too.. so no denison barbs for me. They also aparrently nibble on plants as well.

What is strange though is that these barbs live in the same habitat as clown loaches. Why then the difference in temperature requirement?


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## mort (25 Oct 2016)

Clowns tend to move seasonally, or that is my understanding, changing from floodplains to upstream where they breed in tea coloured tannin rich waters. Denison barbs live more in head waters where it is clean but cooler. There may be overlap I don't know but generally clowns like it warm and barbs cooler.


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## sciencefiction (25 Oct 2016)

I think there is definitely overlap. From my research only baby loaches move to the tannin rich waters where they grow.  The adult clown loaches remain/move upstream. So essentially barbs and loaches may live amongst each other.


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## sciencefiction (25 Oct 2016)

I just wanted to show pics of the tank with the lights on. The water is nice andl clear and it is extremely easy to see the fish well(if they weren't hiding in their pots after unplanting my ludwiga ) Now they pretend they don't like the light


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## sciencefiction (26 Oct 2016)

Ha, ha.  I just put some food inside my small tank where the baby clown is. He rushed out from the single coconut cave where all the kuhli loaches reside and they followed him out  He's found himself friends, lol


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## sciencefiction (26 Oct 2016)

The clown loaches are getting more comfortable.  They were just pulling bloodworms out of my fingers so I am not as scary as I used to look when scooping them out from tank to tank


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## Manisha (27 Oct 2016)

Glad your new clown loach has settled well, I like your crinum - it is one of my favourites the long leaves look great & no seems to eat it! Although seems to be the first to attract bba when the tank is out of balance a bit I have found.


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## sciencefiction (27 Oct 2016)

Thanks Manisha. The crinum was/is destroyed with BBA. All these plants were in my 5f tank and it was overstocked at some stage for a good while, triggered a bad BBA outbreak. I am hoping the new leaves will grow free of BBA. It's a very slow grower. It's a tough plant though, didn't die when my lights went bust and almost everything else besides the crypts and anubias died.


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## sciencefiction (27 Oct 2016)

10 forktail rainbows and 6 turquoise rainbows are going to arrive tomorrow in the post


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## sciencefiction (28 Oct 2016)

The new fish addition failed. They didn't send the order because one of the items was not available in the shop and I missed their call. And I am not available to receive the fish any other day for the next month or so. So, so, disappointing.....Although I am not sure the clown loaches care one bit. They seem pretty happy to me and I am half tempted not to bother with more fish whatsoever. I'll see.


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## sciencefiction (28 Oct 2016)

So what do you guys think, should I get dither fish for my loaches if:

1)They are out almost immediately the lights are off, as if they are waiting for it...
2)They are out any time the lights are off and I go look into the pond. When I have the room light on it that doesn't seem to bother them. Which leads me to believe they just don't like the tank light.
3) I normally get a chair, sit down and rest my chin against the top of the tank and just watch them. The clown loaches come over and start circling under my head hoping to be fed even if I just fed them. The big clown splashed water at my face twice already, he gets very excited, and almost eats my fingers at feeding time. He was never so bold before.
4) They play. I am not sure what game they play but they are chasing each other around and are in and out of decorations and plants. They love the spaced apart pots and go in between like snakes.  
5) They are not afraid of me. They do get skittish when they are not at their best so them getting bolder is a good sign.

Are dithers going to make them come out at lights time or is it just for my entertainment to see fish at lights time?  Also, the clown loaches did use to come out at lights on before. Perhaps they need more time to do so again although they always preferred dimmed conditions.

I do want to get the turquoise rainbows though. The more I read about rainbows, the more I want them although the shape of the fish was never appealing to me. The forktail rainbows are lovely too. I'd love to have them again although not sure because of the very short life span. They live 2-3 years max and I am totally not interested in breeding fish unless I have the space and time for multiple tanks. But that's probably more related to what I want, not what the clowns want. And the only purpose of me not giving up on my fish is to keep the clown loaches happy for as long as they live. I may screw it up but I am doing my best.


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## Manisha (28 Oct 2016)

Sorry your new fish didn't work out - I can't offer help or insight other than you know your loaches so well, I'm sure you could tell if new editions are well received or not. If your lfs is prepared to take any fish that don't settle - I'd be inclined to wait for the stock you want & try ☺ that way if the clowns aren't happy, there's no harm done ☺ If the lfs won't accept returns, I'd possibly just maintain the status quo, so your not left in a difficult position?


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## sciencefiction (29 Oct 2016)

The fishshop I wanted to get the fish from is not my local lfs. Its in another city so I can't return them unless I drive several hours.  I can offload them to my local shop but I just don't like torturing fish like that. I know myself, so I'll probably just end up keeping the fish one way or another.


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## mort (29 Oct 2016)

My clowns are on lights on and lights off. Its a dimly lit tank and they have been out for all but the first few months. I think its a safety in numbers thing with them so more dither fish might not encourage them out more but more clowns could as well. I've always kept other species with them so don't know for certain how not having dithers affects their behaviour.
I've always like movement in the tank and having something else to look at won't take your focus of the clowns and if there is a chance it could improve their behaviour i'd go for it.


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## tim (29 Oct 2016)

Would some floating plants help to diffuse the light and bring the clowns out with the lights on ? Personally I'd add more fish if I wanted more fish  anyhow I think you've done an outstanding job of providing for your livestock  just remember the pond should be for your enjoyment as well as theirs  keep the updates coming please.


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## sciencefiction (30 Oct 2016)

Hey Tim. Thanks. I was kind of avoiding floating plants as they'll block the only view of the fish I have  I do want some but I've to figure a way to keep the floaters in one area around the emersed baskets themselves. The alternative I was thinking is to get some trailing plants. I am trying to train some of the bacopa to grow emersed. It does very well as a floater too and may do the trick. 

He mort, thanks. The clowns used to live with a bunch of forktail rainbows and red platies. It made no change in their behaviour.....But I'll probably get the fish for myself  If I don't have the patience to wait till the end of November to order fish, I can always buy the bunch of colourless friendly rainbows in my local shop and give them a chance...They've been stuck in there for weeks....Only that I don't know what rainbow fish I'll end up with, lol...

I am surprised that the humidity is enough for the cryptocoryne beckettii to grow emersed. It is still throwing new leaves inside the emersed baskets and the leaves are entirely dry.  The humidity of the air here is normally quite high anyway, around 85 or so and with the tank making it even more humid.....I just did a water change and filled the tank a tad higher so it flooded them a bit. I just wanted tank water to float into the baskets from the top too. 

I think my stem plants are in need of some micros. My tanks always lack in iron due to the hard water but I need to buy a different iron fert as mine is only good for soft water unless I overdose severely. I don't think the issue is iron right now though, it just looks like stunted new growth and it could be because the plants are adjusting. I am going to use the bacopa as a measure of nutrients. It goes mad as a floater if its not lacking anything and its very iron sensitive, similar to hydrophila. If it doesn't start growing properly in a few weeks, I'll see what I need to dose based on that. 

The newest underwater planted crypts have also thrown new leaves. And my two large anubias have a bright new leaf each, grown proportionally, not lacking anything. The clowns pinched a hole in one of them but that's normal 

The BBA on the old leaves is still there all around but it is not spreading at all....

And here is a short tour. There isn't much anything to see to be honest. I am just showing around the bad bits mostly, stunted growth on the stems and the BBA on the anubias but if you feel like watching.........


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## dw1305 (30 Oct 2016)

Hi all,





sciencefiction said:


> I do want some but I've to figure a way to keep the floaters in one area around the emersed baskets themselves. The alternative I was thinking is to get some trailing plants. I am trying to train some of the bacopa to grow emersed. It does very well as a floater too and may do the trick.


<"_Hygroryza aristata"> _would be ideal for what you want. Just root it in the basket.
_



 _

cheers Darrel


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## zozo (30 Oct 2016)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,<"_Hygroryza aristata"> _would be ideal for what you want. Just root it in the basket.
> _
> 
> 
> ...



Hey that picture looks familiar..  It indeed is a very lovely plant to grow emersed too.. But it needs a rather high nutrient rich invironment.. The above yellowing of the older leaves is a potassium shortage, dosing extra potasium nitrate / potassium phosphate will surely aid this plant to a good health..

Here is a picture of some growing emersed in a pot among others. Not fully growen in yet and it's winter by now, but i suspect this go booming in enough light next year.. It ended up in there by accident, don't ask me how, but i must have added a tiny piece without notice..


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## sciencefiction (31 Oct 2016)

Its hard to find the plants I want here, including floaters....I've been searching since last night, can't really find a place that has good variety of floating and marginal plants that could suit. I've never seen the Hygroryza plant on sale here.

And I moved the baby clown to the Big Pot just now. It took quite the chasing first to catch him. Eventually I cornered him and what did he do? He jumped out of the tank. After that it was easy scooping him up from the floor 

Here you can see him trying to go into one of the clown loach caves and getting evicted twice 



Right now he's sort of figuring his surroundings and he's using the shadow of the plant pots to hide...Poor little thing. He's so tiny as well.


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## Manisha (1 Nov 2016)

Hi sci fi, don't usually notice these boys but after your thread saw some clown loaches at lfs at the wend (tiny babies compared to your ones) but saw these guys in a new light   very cute ☺☺☺


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## Greenfinger2 (1 Nov 2016)

Hi Sciencefiction, Wonderful Project. Looking really cool


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## sciencefiction (1 Nov 2016)

Hi Manisha, they are great fish, very interesting to have and are my favourite. I did hate them for the first few months after I got them 

Hi Greenfinger. Thanks. There's a lot to be done yet but I am not in a rush and  its limited here on plant availability.... I was trying to find simple stuff like water hyacinth and I couldn't find anywhere to get it, lol.


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## sciencefiction (1 Nov 2016)

I think the little loach is kind of afraid of the other clown loaches right now.  He's not sure if they'll eat him alive or not  They won't of course, but he doesn't know it yet so he's avoiding them like the plague


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## tim (1 Nov 2016)

If you can get hold of some hydrocotyle tripartia, plant it at the front of the pots and it should make its way into the water.


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## sciencefiction (1 Nov 2016)

Thanks Tim. This one I can find for sure.


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## sciencefiction (4 Nov 2016)

This will be a long post.....typical for me but I've broken it down per topic

I ordered Water Hyacinth,  Aeschynomene Fluitans and salvinia from a kind member on here  I can't wait.....Yey...

I just wonder if I'll have room to fit them all if they grow, lol. The bigger the tank, the more space one needs 

 The question is how to reduce the surface movement a bit. It's destroyed my two floating stems of bacopa and ludwiga and the bacopa normally has no problem growing floating. I think I've got a bit too much flow for what I want. When I put some food in, it makes a full circle around the tank. The problem is when my last tank went down, I got a bit mad and I threw away almost all my spare bits and pieces I had collected over the years,  and I've thrown the extensions to my outlets too.  I can buy new ones but  its just not worth it for what they are selling them for on the APS website, for such bad piece of plastic. ... I can raise the water level though...

I ordered some Profito iron. I've got EDTA dry iron ferts that don't work well in my hard water and I am seeing some iron deficiency. I am sick of seeing iron deficiency in my crappy tap water. I've got a huge pack of dry micros. Now I need some decent macro ferts...The fish aren't producing much waste for the size of the tank and with my large water change habit, it ain't helping either. I see my palm is having some nitrogen problems.

The small clown loach has been a loner, poor thing, He's not been accepted in the school yet. He keeps away from the pack.  They normally circle like sharks in a bunch in the morning, begging for food. The small guy is always away on his own. I don't know what he does all day but he seems to be out on his own. When clown loaches are babies, they are not skittish with lights on. They start hiding when they get older. Pity now his friend jumped out..and I was too afraid to get another loach due to the poor state of the remaining loaches. They were probably just starved....He'll be fine though. Clown loaches always eventually get on together. He just needs a bit of growing to do to stand his ground.

I've been feeding a bit more now, as in twice a day as opposed to once a day. I think I can afford it with the light stock and water volume and I want them to get strong after the last few months of hardship. The clowns are now regular at nibbling my fingers at feeding time. I think the black tank walls are really helping them feeling more confident. The couple of occasions of them flashing have stopped. I think the water is good now. It's been a month or so with well cycled filters to start with. And the fish had spent about 2 months in small plastic containers, an 80L! one housed my 7 loaches and the bristlenose pleco for the first month with large water changes and barely any food. And then in a 130-140l one with large water changes and again barely any food.... 

My corys are pretty happy in another plastic container that's been setup with soil and plants for a while. I am not sure I want to move them. It can wait.

But I am definately moving the kuhli loaches and shutting down their tank after I use it for quarantining new fish that i can fit in there.  I need some smaller caves in the tank that the clown loaches can't get into, and the crypts to grow a bit to give the kuhlis some cover as they are quite skittish. They do come out all the time in my small glass tank but it's literally packed with plants. But they are crazy and entertaining when they have bigger water volume...They swim like crazy at the water surface or up and down at night time...

And finally,as you are probably aware, I was going to get rainbows for the tank. Now I am reading they are prone to mycobacteria. That's the one thing I can't have of all possible diseases...although I am pretty certain its probably everywhere, just not all fish get it.  I do trust the shop and I had blue eyed forktail rainbows before but....mycobacteria can take a year to show up and with my luck...

I can't make up my mind on dither fish. Please suggest any fish you'd house if you were in my situation I still may get rainbows in the end of the day but I want to explore more options before I plunge


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## zozo (4 Nov 2016)

sciencefiction said:


> The question is how to reduce the surface movement a bit.



I guess you have a hose at the filter outlet? If so or not try to fix one to it.. Hang the hose in a plantbasket, the basket will be partialy submersed.. For example that kidney shaped basket, fix a spraybar to the end of the hose, whole lenght of the basket covered and let it spray on the substrate in the basket.. You can't have a beter filter as well..

That's a winwin.. 

I made this for the goldfish this winter, an indoor celler pond, round, square and 270 litre.. I filter it like that and it works like a charme.. Tho no spraybar, no riple, but still to same flow rate..


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## sciencefiction (4 Nov 2016)

Hey Zozo. Thanks. I remember that idea from earlier in the thread and its been in my mind. Its a really great idea. But  my filters are 2000l/h each.  They totally blow the substrate out of the basket(I knocked my bigger pepper plant out of the substrate when I was trying to prime the damn JBL filter) so It won't work unless I get some smaller filter/powerhead for that same purpose. I do have some power heads from my trickle filters from before that I didn't throw out. I haven't thought about using them for this and how to do it exactly but its just extra filtration I probably don't need yet...But I may still try it because its just such a good and easy way of filtering and at the same time providing the most for the plants inside the basket....


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## sciencefiction (4 Nov 2016)

zozo said:


> I made this for the goldfish this winter, an indoor celler pond, round, square and 270 litre.. I filter it like that and it works like a charme.. Tho no spraybar, no riple, but still to same flow rate..



You've got magic fingers Marcel. Lovely DIY stuff. I am useless with my hands


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## zozo (4 Nov 2016)

Thank you..  So you are running 2 x 2000 l/h filter pumps? Anyway, why should it be filtering you do not need? 

You could use Y connectors in the hoses and create Octopus outlets.. Like 4 outlets per filter same size tube 3 Y splittrs per outlet.. Some more baskets and plants.. Never it is filtering you do not need, it's just there in case you needed.. Even if you don't need it still makes you a nice jungle.. Put an Echinodorus in it, they do good in lower humidity.. My pogostemon also doesn't mind as some hygrofilias are also not so fusy about it, lilaeopsis brasiliensis will do, most rotala's, cyperus helferi.. Ophiopogon..


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## sciencefiction (4 Nov 2016)

It's 3 filters right now. Two of them are 2000l/h and one 1900l/h. I can try splitting the JBL one eventually because its easier to buy bits for it. But they are all non-standard pipe sizes. The JBL has a 19/25 hose size and the APS are 18/25 hose size. The APS filters outlets are sort of hard to change because despite the hose size, they've got a very narrow outlet..and the more you connect to it, the less the flow, restricting the filters. I've reduced the outlet bits to a minimum to get a decent flow out. If I connect the spraybars to these filters, the flow is reduced by half, judging only by looking at it....I can do that, but its a pity doing it...

 Everything out there that's good for modification is for 16/22 hoses/outlets. One would wonder....And it's not the problem of my DIY skills only...which are poor I admit but I have plenty of ideas.  The problem is that the local shops here are so poor, you can't even find a pvc pipe of the size you want. Most of the stuff I need I have to buy online, and its hard to do so without seeing what you're buying. It's just hard to imagine how it would fit.  It ends up in a pile of useless stuff sitting in the cupboard until I throw it out one day, and lots of money spent on stuff that would have been better utilised for the living beings I am caring for.

The last bit was just a rant about feeling helpless ...or just useless 

But just as an example, I went to two very large garden centres last week trying to buy a bunch of small ceramic pots to replace the plastic ones the clown loaches have been knocking off. Guess what...I found none....And its a small enough city. There are a couple more places only to check out. Annoyed...is lightly said


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## sciencefiction (10 Nov 2016)

Hey, my new plants just arrived and are in perfect condition. I got them from a member here Konrad Michalski. He did a great job packing them.

Here are a couple of pictures of them in bowls with a a bit of light and ferts. I'll keep them in there until the weekend. I don't want to worry about them being blown by the flow until I have time to fiddle around.


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## sciencefiction (11 Nov 2016)

Today I bit the bullet and got 10 denison barbs. They are only young and still quite colourless so I got them quite cheaply in my local shop. I am acclimating them right now. I know they might not like the higher temperature but they'll love the good flow and oxygen content this tank can provide. I may still add a school of rainbows in the near future if I feel like getting more fish.  The shop owner of my local shop said he can order whatever species of rainbows I like so I might again support the local business instead of trying to order online.


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## sciencefiction (11 Nov 2016)

F*cking hell. These fish jump. I just found one of them dead outside of the bucket where I was acclimating them. How the hell didn't I see it earlier 
Anyway, I am down to 9 now and they are in the tank now......If they want to jump out of there, its their choice....


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## sciencefiction (11 Nov 2016)

Well, the floaters are in too. It looked like I had so many but in the tank it seems like nothing 
Some of the salvinia tried to go behind the plant baskets but moving the outlets a bit worked out to keep them out of there. 

The sensitive fern closes its leaves each time you touch it so it looks a bit unhappy right now. I wedged its stem behind the inlet so it's not being moved by the flow. 

My other plants had been suffering from iron and nitrogen deficiency which is the usual in my set ups. Even my paprika grew new pale leaves...They were shouting at me to give them some iron  So I finally dosed a couple of days ago and I am seeing them bouncing back because the bacopa finally produced normal growth....Its very iron sensitive.... I just need to work out how much to dose without going overboard.  I may also skip the water change this week because the current stock don't seem to be producing enough nitrogen for the plants between the large water changes. The 9 small barbs won't make much of a difference.
 On another hand they coloured up a bit already I think. I am seeing some red stuff on them. But they were quite colourless in the shop so it may take a while.

Here is a bad picture of some of them and the tank below with the floaters which look insignificant right now


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## alto (12 Nov 2016)

sciencefiction said:


> These fish jump


sorry   wish I'd checked in earlier as I could've warned to cover the lid ... you always need to watch for them jumping when startled or stressed so keep doing your tail counts when water changing etc until they settle

You might try to source wild rainbows? rather than tank farmed (but then $$)

My (undoubtedly useless) inkling says the "blue eyes" are less prone to mycobacteria ... BUT that may also just reflect their shorter lifespan so ...
I'll admit though that given the longevity of the Clown Loaches, I'd also reconsider the Rainbow notion

There are loads of interesting Rasboras of all sizes & colors, they are always fun to watch in bigger groups in bigger tanks & you'll see lots of spawning dances & just (apparently) joyful swim antics ...


As for the 19/25 hose, my memory says there used to be more in that size range - I guess it's just fallen out of fashion 
Drive about the countryside & look in the really old fashioned shops


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## sciencefiction (12 Nov 2016)

alto said:


> sorry  wish I'd checked in earlier as I could've warned to cover the lid ... you always need to watch for them jumping when startled or stressed so keep doing your tail counts when water changing etc until they settle



 The fish was a perfect specimen. I had the chance to have a good look at it.



alto said:


> My (undoubtedly useless) inkling says the "blue eyes" are less prone to mycobacteria ... BUT that may also just reflect their shorter lifespan so ...
> I'll admit though that given the longevity of the Clown Loaches, I'd also reconsider the Rainbow notion



Yes, the short life span and introducing new fish every so often is not what I want so the dwarf rainbows might be out of question unless I really get the urge.

Now I hope it all goes well with the 9 denison barbs. They lured the small clown loach to get out almost instantly and once they grow a bit, along with the floaters, may help the older loaches come out more during light time.  I like rasboras. I don't know why I never considered them. I will look into the species types.



alto said:


> As for the 19/25 hose, my memory says there used to be more in that size range - I guess it's just fallen out of fashion



The APS filters have a 18/25 hose size. I actually swapped one of the APS filters tubing with a JBL 19/25 last weekend, and it fits just fine so I am guessing I can also swap the outlets with JBL ones too. I have raised the water level a bit so the surface is not so stormy.  I just need to keep an eye on the evaporation.

Now I am considering more light because the tank definitely needs it.  I just can't make up my mind. I will either get one more of exactly the same flood light as it seems to be doing good to the plants, or one Kessil 160 WE tuna sun since I already have the Kessil gooseneck and it will be just a matter of swapping the light unit....less clutter too....


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## sciencefiction (12 Nov 2016)

The barbs are not schooling with each other this morning. It looks like right now they are more interested into chasing each other away rather than swimming together.... It just crossed my mind that in the last 5 years that's my only second purchase of mid and top dwelling fish, the previous being a bunch of forktail rainbow fish ...And I've forgotten how interesting it is to have a new species of fish in your tank that doesn't prefer to sift the bottom of the sand, lol...

The clowns gave a couple of the barbs a chase but not hunting like behaviour, more like being their usual curious selves.  But the barbs are fast and furious  All fish are out right now and seem content with each other's company. 

One of the barbs seems to be way smaller than the rest. I am guessing its the runt of the group as the rest are the same size. Hopefully it picks up. It will be easier feeding them at lights on when the clowns aren't so interested in behaving like 'food hoovers'


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## sciencefiction (12 Nov 2016)




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## sciencefiction (13 Nov 2016)

It seems its going to be hard to feed these small fish inside this tank.

They just don't seem to be seeing the food or by the time they saw it, its already on the bottom and they won't pick it up. At the same time, when the food is falling, they're waiting for it near the bottom??  The food tends to get blown quite fast in the tank and it does make a circle around the sides of the tank from the flow.  The clown loaches have figured it out but not these fish yet.  They do not come up to the surface at all, in fact they are swimming quite closely to the bottom considering they aren't bottom fish.  And they won't pick up the food from the sand just under them....My baby clown loach will get fat, at least he picks up the pieces...

I tried bloodworms, several types of pellets, etc... The very small pellets which would be suitable to their mouths just get lost in the tank. I can barely see them myself after dropping them. I never buy flake but I don't think that will help either. I tried even larger shrimp pellets and algae wafers in case the fish can't se the food,  with no success....So I don't know if these fish have eaten at all yet. They do get excited when the food is in, visually,  but that's about it.....

On another hand, they seem to be ok. They were colouring up yesterday by the hour literally. I can see red noses, red dorsal fins and yellow spots on the tails. They seem to be loving the hollow stone which serves as a clown loach cave. They keep circling over it and in and out of it. The clown loaches have moved ship to the pvc tube since, not enjoying the attention...

And just to add, I had a surprise discovery today. I saw a shrimp in the tank...I've no idea how it got inside the tank. I am guessing via plants but this is an adult shrimp and when I took the plants out of my other tank I washed them under running tap water first. Then I took my time planting them in soil pots outside the water for ages. 

They other option is if I did have uneaten shrimp while the loaches were in the plastic tub and the shrimp got in there from day one.  Here is she is, a female shrimp, happily munching my old pre-filter sponges. Should I add a couple of more I wonder to start a new colony.....They survived the clown loaches in the previous tank...The problem is, its very difficult siphoning a tank full of shrimp, impossible I might say...They jump on the hose and all over my hands....

Please excuse the state of the sponge. It is quite old and I was unwilling to change any pre-filter sponges until the tank is well mature....I do wash them weekly


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## sciencefiction (15 Nov 2016)

The little barbs seem to be doing quite well. I've no idea if they're eating or not though. I see them at feeding time picking something but can't be sure how much they find because I can't see either the food nor the fish that well. They love the opposite side of the tank where the hollow stone is.  They are definitely not surface feeders or top tank swimmers, at least not when young.  When the light is off, they swim so close to the substrate you'd say they are loaches of some kind. But they of course venture everywhere. 

I am thinking to get some Siamese algae eaters next time. Someone needs to clean the old BBA on the anubias  The problem is that I have to buy the true kind. There's only one type, as far as I am aware,  that eats algae for life and its called Crossocheilus Langei. Its supposed to have a black blotch on its belly that distinguishes it from the other Crossocheilus types and of course the false ones like flying fox and the likes. Besides that they look pretty much the same, clear fins, long black line from nose to end of tail, etc..I've never seen that blotch on the ones they sell here. It may be because they normally sell fry and they are too little to show it, or they are one of the other several Crossocheilus that either don't eat algae or eat it only when young.


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## sciencefiction (15 Nov 2016)

Oh, and I forgot to say. There is a bit die off on the sensitive fern. The older leaves are shedding. The water hyacinth is doing well and there's no sign of deficiency so I am guessing the sensitive fern is just adapting. It is growing though, already a full new branch/leaf like. The salvinia is also growing and staying green so it must be something to do with the fern itself.  We'll see....


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## PARAGUAY (15 Nov 2016)

sciencefiction said:


>


Looking great


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## sciencefiction (16 Nov 2016)

Thanks Paraguay.

Well, unfortunately, the sensitive fern has dropped all of its old leaves.....



 

It seems to be growing though. I hope it is just adapting


 

The other fern I planted in a pot that also houses my palm seems to have started growing finally


 

There is no fear for my peace lilies 


 

And the water hyacinth  It seems to love bunching with each other.....


 


Its not very visible but here you can see the bacopa throwing healthy new growth. The bottom part is sorry looking because it suffered the usual deficiencies I deal with. Its bouncing back. 


 


 

A couple of water gardeners  They were clicking at the water hyacinth the other morning 


 

Miss Red Rili shrimp is quite the survivor


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## sciencefiction (17 Nov 2016)

I got 5 Siamese Algae Eaters  They fit the description and have the black blotch too.

They went very pale in the bag and while acclimating. And within minutes in the tank they recovered and started schooling with the denison barbs like one big family. So cute


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## sciencefiction (18 Nov 2016)

Well these SAEs better get down to business....They are too buzy swimming around like they have never seen water... 

They seem quite the schooling type...


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## sciencefiction (18 Nov 2016)

Plants wise, I am dealing with nitrogen deficiency right now.....The water hyacinth has some old leaves yellowing, as if it happened overnight, very fast..including chlorosis...I dosed quite a lot of potassium nitrate these days... It seems it gets all mopped by the plants...or maybe the clay pebbles. Who knows.... Maybe that's why the sensitive fern dropped all its old leaves...I thought I dosed enough. I always go by scoop count, lol  I need to start measuring how much I am dosing to have an idea though the plants don't care about that...

And the tank is due a water change after two weeks of none....There is now a bit of biofilm on the surface after skipping one weekend 

I have not seen the SAE's eat any algae yet. So I fed some courgette instead.. I think they are a bit too excited and haven't settled yet. They do rounds around the tank non-stop. If one of them gets lost, the rest seem to sort of wait on him/her to catch up. They also swim vertically the sides of the tank, just like the clown loaches.   I read last night that SAEs might not get on with Denison barbs because of the similar markings, and even attack them Let's hope that's not true...They all seem ok sharing the tank right now and actually shoal together... 

They have coloured up and the back is now quite darkish brown looking. They were silver white in the shop with just a black line in the middle....I thought its because they were young but obviously they were just stressed, especially the pale purplish white while being acclimated. That hue must have come from the natural brownish coloration.  I spent a bit of time outside in the cold with the bag without any additional packing before I brought them home.


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## Andy Thurston (18 Nov 2016)

hi SF

 nice project I missed this somehow 

I used to keep dennisons with my clowns and both species jump, more with the lights off. I never had any trouble adding juvenile clowns to the group, although I always added 4-5 to the group as it seems to stop 12 clowns saying "hello" to 1 fish at the same time and you have a large enough pond to keep them all. I used to keep my temp around 24 *C which seemed the best compromise.

I noticed earlier in the thread a post asking why you filtered the tank so heavily even though its planted, the clowns like decent flow. mine thrived in 8-9 x turnover. I used to feed them fairly heavily too and the amount of poop these guys make is unreal, my filters were also full of coarse and medium sponges with a small amount of ceramic media. I used to change 50% of the water every 10 days and clean the filters every 3-4 months. This seemed to keep my water crystal clear.

I used to feed my clowns 3 hours after lights on and they were always swimming around within a hour of the lights coming on.

The dennison males will spar/chase each other all the time this is fairly normal and will often result in a jumper so a cover would probably be a good idea.


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## dw1305 (19 Nov 2016)

Hi all,





sciencefiction said:


> The water hyacinth has some old leaves yellowing, as if it happened overnight, very fast.......Maybe that's why the sensitive fern dropped all its old leaves...


It is most likely to be light levels, _Eichornia_ needs a lot of light to get through the winter.

cheers Darrel


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## sciencefiction (19 Nov 2016)

Hey Andy. Thanks. Yours sounds like just the way I always kept my loaches 



Andy Thurston said:


> I noticed earlier in the thread a post asking why you filtered the tank so heavily even though its planted, the clowns like decent flow. mine thrived in 8-9 x turnover. I used to feed them fairly heavily too and the amount of poop these guys make is unreal, my filters were also full of coarse and medium sponges with a small amount of ceramic media. I used to change 50% of the water every 10 days and clean the filters every 3-4 months. This seemed to keep my water crystal clear.



That's about exactly what I've always done, including the type of filter media. How odd we've got the same exact habits when it comes to loaches but it works 



Andy Thurston said:


> I used to keep my temp around 24 *C which seemed the best compromise.



Yes, they do tolerate lower than the advertised temperature without a problem. Mine were kept at 24C -25C all winter every winter and 26C and above in the summer depending on the weather as you can't get it lower. Now, because they were alone in the tank I had it up to 26C although its winter. I turned the heaters down to 25C two weeks ago but it still stays at 26C. I think the big volume of water somehow acts like a heater to keep the water constant in the room itself. The heat can't escape...which is good..




Andy Thurston said:


> The dennison males will spar/chase each other all the time this is fairly normal and will often result in a jumper so a cover would probably be a good idea.




I need to really think about that. When these fish grow they can leap out. There is quite a bit of distance between the top of the tank and the water level and there is a plastic edge so they do need to do a big leap to get out....but they can when they are bigger.... I've always relied on fish not wanting to jump out....I know the clown loaches jump but they really don't bother if they feel secure.  I have never kept Denison barbs or SAEs before and it says everywhere that they jump.....So I must find some sort of plastic mesh that will not block the light and I can easily remove if I want to....It's just that now my clowns are being hand fed every day....especially the biggest loach has lost all fear of me....It is so rewarding to see fish that are naturally skittish, turn into such pets..


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## sciencefiction (19 Nov 2016)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,It is most likely to be light levels, _Eichornia_ needs a lot of light to get through the winter.
> 
> cheers Darrel



I think I agree with you....I really need to upgrade the light now that I have the floaters too....I may order a Kessil 160WE next week...It is advertised as 40W and I wonder if the 40W Kessil is a good bit stronger than the 30W flood light I currently have?


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## sciencefiction (19 Nov 2016)

So who said fish don't swim in a circle  In this video in the space of 1 minute you will see the SAEs doing 3 rounds around the tank. Watch from the very start....So far all fish's initial reaction upon introduction was to swim far away, lol, only to get back to the same spot.. They don't know it though


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## sciencefiction (20 Nov 2016)

I think the paprika project may fail  One of the plants had literally fallen because the soil is too loose from being right in the water...I had to raise the water level up to accommodation the floaters and stop them from being driven into the basket area...It works for them but the extra water in the pepper basket isn't doing great to the peppers. Their very lower leaves have melted from being in the water.....I'll leave them be for longer to see how they do but it doesn't look good....


On another hand I don't mind because they grow pretty big and heavy and flower all year round, the flowers constantly fall off and it will make a mess in the tank anyway if I have to be honest...


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## sciencefiction (20 Nov 2016)

I went at the back of the tank last night to adjust the heaters temperature down a bit because the temp won't go down below 26C and I want it at 25 and I noticed that the parlour palm has thrown lots of new growth at the back. It's not very visible but here it is in the background.


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## sciencefiction (20 Nov 2016)

Also, my choice of fish isn't going to achieve what I wanted. It seems I ended up with fish that occupy from mid to bottom of the tank. The denison barbs rarely venture above mid water, don't feed from the surface, etc..In all videos on youtube I see them all schooling tightly. Mine are scattered all around in singles and pairs and just sort of gather from time to time above the hollow stone but do not school together. 

 Same apply for the SAEs but at least they are very cute schooling in a group around......and of course the clown loaches strictly stick to the bottom .I think I'll end up increasing the stocking with a bunch of small enough shoaling top dwelling fish of some kind, ideally not skittish ones. I know the forktail rainbows stick to the surface at all times...but I sort of fancy something I haven't kept like rasboras or tetras of some sort...as long as it does not go to the bottom of the tank...


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## sciencefiction (20 Nov 2016)

The sensitive fern is rapidly dying  Even the new growth has shrivelled and dried up for some reason.... I just moved it near the light to try to keep it alive until I get more light....I think that's what it is...And the paprika is out to dry....

That's all that's left of it now, see the dried up leaves just above the water hyacinth and the yellow leaves that will be completely dead by tomorrow judging by the rest...This happened in my old tank at the start before I increased up the light considerably..... I killed a beautiful floater I can't remember the name off, but quite rare...



 


All those small black pots where I planted the crypts will be out. I am replacing them with glass jars one by one for lack of better pots....
Most than half of the soil that was in them ended up all over the sand making a mess. I don't even think its the clown loaches that much as I noticed they simply get knocked on the side by the flow around the tank..

A look from above....not great...and very messy looking...Only the fish like it...


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## Greenfinger2 (20 Nov 2016)

Hi S , The fern is  Aeschynomene fluitans Sorry to hear yours is not doing well. I have tried this plant.It fail to grow well Apart from my shallow where it grew over the side of the tank and did well 
I think its more of a bog plant. It seemed not to like the water movement in the tank. When I moved it to the back where there was less water movement it did better. 

The pond is looking fantastic great idea and concept  

Sadly My Wife said no to one in our home


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## sciencefiction (20 Nov 2016)

Thanks Roy.



Greenfinger2 said:


> Sadly My Wife said no to one in our home



I got that too at first.....considering I sacrificed an entire room  Perhaps you should wait and try again....It's the best "fish tank" I've ever had. I am really enjoying it, especially the reaction the fish have to it...It's like a kinder garden to them


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## sciencefiction (21 Nov 2016)

Ordered a Kessil A360 WE today. Lets hope it arrives soon to see if more light will improve things with the floaters...


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## Manisha (22 Nov 2016)

Definately the best usage of a fish bowl...ever  Great updates as always ☺


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## sciencefiction (23 Nov 2016)

Thanks Manisha.


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## sciencefiction (23 Nov 2016)

Update on the SAEs.....

In the limited amount of time they've been in the tank, besides the times when they made rounds non-stop, they've been happily surfing the substrate for food, including nibbling my filter sponges... I am yet to see them touch any sort of leaf for algae.... They also disappear at night time unlike the denison barbs who can be seen swimming around...

So my SAES don't eat algae and behave like bottom fish  But I quite like them. They are fun to watch swimming around in a group. They tend to sort of "nudge" each other from time to time and tend to do everything at the same time, even when nibbling the pre-filter sponges. I think algae wise, I am feeding a bit too much these days trying to make sure everyone gets a bite and it's not unknown that SAEs eat everything else besides algae. ....

The denison barbs colour up more and more every day. When I got them they were all grey. They got orange nose, dorsal fin and yellow dots on the tails a few days after. Today I am noticing body colour change-more yellow. They've learned to come up to the "front" of the tank for food. I feed them when the lights are on otherwise the clown loaches occupy the front area where I feed and spook all other fish. 

The clown loaches were out today with the lights on when I was sitting and watching for about 20 min or so which is an improvement..
If I have time in the morning one of these days, I'll take a video of handfeeding them.


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## sciencefiction (25 Nov 2016)

The light is arriving today but the sensitive fern dropped off all of its "live" parts including the tip where it grows  I think I killed it completely....such a pity as I really liked it.


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## sciencefiction (25 Nov 2016)

Well, here is my new Kessil light.....Not as powerful as I thought but it's quite nice. The flood light is now illuminating the back of the emersed plants..










Impossible to take pictures of the "fast and furious" denison barbs but here is a bad attempt at showing the colour they're getting. It's been just two weeks and from completely grey fish they are now looking half decent although very small yet...


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## sciencefiction (25 Nov 2016)

And a couple of videos.....The light is just the flood light out the back but it seems the loaches don't mind that...


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## sciencefiction (26 Nov 2016)

I wonder when are the SAEs going to settle........

They are making my head spin... They still do circles around the tank...From time to time the odd one would go clean a leaf or join the barbs but the moment he sees the rest passing, he goes "at the races"...So much about them fish being algae eaters ...They like the fish food too much too...But they are such fun, extremely active. And although generally grey/brown looking, they are really shiny when they turn side ways. They've got a copper colour shiny patch just near the tail that makes a lovely contrast to the silver shine on their underbelly.

I was doing a water change and the lot, the SAEs and the Denison barbs joined into one big school, very cute... The small clown loach came out and shot to the surface thinking I am going to feed them, lol...He was out for a surprise...

I did something stupid. I planted some Dill in the water floating. I've got floating planters from years ago that I never used. I took one out the other day and hung it on one of the intakes to block the flow from blowing salvinia behind the baskets, so it stood bare. Now its got some dill in it...We were at supermarket for the weekly shopping. I had some left over dill from the pot and it ended up in the tank... I wonder if it will grow...Gonna take a picture later if not too lazy..It doesn't look too good. 

I am thinking I've got a seriously bad nitrogen deficiency I can't overcome for some reason even with the tons of food feeding the fish and dosing...The salvinia, which is pretty easy to grow,  has chlorosis/necrosis on its old leaves and the new growth, although green and healthy enough looking, is pretty much too small, just like nitrogen deficiency...All the water hyacinth is the same although I've got two new healthy plantlets. So old growth is affected majorly..

I dumped a lot of KNO3 after the water change this time, like lots by the scoop... dry...Let's see what happens now that they've got more light...Maybe my ferts are a bit too old and not working. I think I got them about 2-3 years ago and considering the damp in this country, it may have gone off...


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## sciencefiction (27 Nov 2016)

Here for the record pics of the described problems with the hyacinth and salvinia..


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## Manisha (27 Nov 2016)

At 0.38 - that loach is ENORMOUS! They are very playful & seem very 'fond' of your (pleco?!)


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## sciencefiction (27 Nov 2016)

Manisha said:


> At 0.38 - that loach is ENORMOUS! They are very playful & seem very 'fond' of your (pleco?!)



Ha, ha. It looks like they are pestering him but I know he is totally unfazed by them  That loach is 9 inches. He's a female and they are normally larger than the males  I happened to measure her by accident as she stood over a knife that held a cucumber and covered the lot of it. The knife is 9 inches 

This loach is my largest and oldest. She was a rescue. I've personally had her for just over 3 years. I found her in a small local pet shop which only sells goldfish. . She was abandoned by its previous owner in there and held in a 10G tank in the shop, quite stressed out. I didn't want to buy her at first not wanting to risk the health of my current loaches but kept returning to check on her, hoping someone had picked her up. After seeing her stressing out for two weeks, I bought her.

She must had been kept as a lone loach previously because it took her ages to join my other group of loaches ( I only had 5 at the time). By ages I mean months and months swimming solitary but she is now the alpha loach and leads the group, and quite friendly at that, so I got lucky.  The previous alpha, which is the second largest loach I have at only 4 years old, was always very skittish, so was the entire shoal of fish because of that. Now that they follow this loach, its an entirely different story.

  she has grown lots since I bought her, at around 1 inch per year which is extremely fast for a clown loach. She literally eats like a pig. If I am not careful, she's capable of eating all blood worms in one go, several cubes worth, because she shoots for my hand and just wipes everything like a good "puppy" 

That's how she looked like the day after I got her in 2013





A year later in 2014 when she could still fit in her favourite tube without sticking half her body out...




In 2015 below. The picture is not great but you can notice she's grown in length as she's more elongated.





And here she is the biggest in the bunch from today 2016, 3 years later and a lot of patience to get her to like me


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## sciencefiction (28 Nov 2016)

And the clown eating from my hand...


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## alto (29 Nov 2016)

sciencefiction said:


> So my SAES don't eat algae and behave like bottom fish





sciencefiction said:


> wonder when are the SAEs going to settle........
> 
> They are making my head spin... They still do circles around the tank...From time to time the odd one would go clean a leaf or join the barbs but the moment he sees the rest passing, he goes "at the races"...So much about them fish being algae eaters ...They like the fish food too much too...



They sound like typical juvenile SAE that are likely tank bred & accustomed to eating fish food rather than scrounging for algae ... if you're comfortable not feeding for a few days, you may be able to trigger their browsing instincts ... but as they mature they become more food focused as well
(how certain are you of correct species id)
Your SAE have got a fabulous lifestyle 

Do you have Oto's in the tank?


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## sciencefiction (29 Nov 2016)

alto said:


> Do you have Oto's in the tank?



No, no otos. They all died one by one(I had had them for years prior) due to overstocking as a result of my broken tanks....I don't feel like getting any because of fresh memory...

I saw the SAEs the odd times eating some algae but for short periods of time. They are too busy swimming around like lunatics. They also love eating stuff from the pre-filter sponges....
I am sure they are Chrossocheilus Langei but as you said they might have been accustomed to fish food. They do not line up for food as the denison barbs every time I look in the tank(they are getting the hint though), so I try not to feed them much, only what they find fallen on the substrate. Plus when they do get accross a pellet of food, they spent all the time quarrelling who's going to eat it (really funny) and by the time they finish, some other fish has taken it away.. It won't hurt skip the feeding for a couple of days..I do have some BBA on the anubias that was there from my previous tank but it is not excessive and not on all leaves. Perhaps the algae is too old for them. Apart from that, there shouldn't be much algae for them to eat yet...They do love bloodworms though


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## sciencefiction (2 Dec 2016)

It's been a busy week, not much time at all to observe the fish but I had a good look at the tank this evening.

The water hyacinth is still not doing well at all. The necrosis on the older leaves, and some not so old, keeps developing...I am not sure what the issue is right now...The other emersed plants like my peace lilies and parlour palm, etc... are not affected by the same. The salvinia is affected but not to such extent. It keeps growing dwarfed type of leaves but besides that there isn't much damage/yellowing or necrosis/chlorosis, if any. The root system on both though is not great..... So my guess is that either the floaters can't compete with my other emersed plants or the water surface agitation is too much for them. However, I watched a video of the Amazon River where the water hyacinth ends up covering miles and miles of surface...So how is my tank much more turbulent than the amazon river....Should I probably dose much more ferts/get new ferts because mine may not be doing anything, particularly the macros.....I already completely killed the sensitive fern.....

My baby clown loach is doing well and he finally lost his fear of the larger ones. Before he used to run away from them because he thought they were chasing him...But that's what clown loaches do, they follow each other, the poor little thing had no clue  Now he's up there with the rest. He also joins the denison barbs a lot and comes for food when I feed them during the day...at weekends at least because I am not at home during week days.

I haven't been able to keep count of the denison barbs...It's impossible to count them so I don't know if I still  have 9 but I haven't seen any fish behaving oddly and even the "runt" seems to be in pretty good shape. It's a tad smaller than the rest of the school but other than that looks healthy and happy.

The extra light over the last week doesn't seem to have caused "algae" issues yet although I have it on max intensity at 8 hours plus the overhanging flood light which illuminates mostly the emersed plants at the back and is on for 11 hrs.  The emersed plants seem to be appreciating that extra light a lot. My peace lilies are growing healthy big new leaves and even the other fern(forgot the name of it) and the parlour palm have new growth since last week again.  I am wondering though...if that's the reason they are doing better than the floaters, because they've always got better light, the window light, now the kessil and the flood light.....On my old tank, when I had the healthiest plants above and under water, I had 145 W of high power LEDs, anything less and my plants started suffering visually in no time...That tank was shallower as well..


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## sciencefiction (3 Dec 2016)

I think I found out what the issue is with the water hyacinth at least. Someone has been eating it..... I'll give it one guess who


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## sciencefiction (4 Dec 2016)

So....it turns out there are big holes in the root system of the water hyacinth. This only my clown loaches can do and I heard them clicking madly at it a few times...Every damaged/rotting part of the plants has a hole underneath....I may need to get some of those pond protectors with a mesh if I find any to buy or the plants won't make it....

An interesting thing I noticed with my bristlenose pleco...My JBL filter spraybar is half above the water now, in a vertical position. I saw the pleco twice sitting right in there getting blown by the water flow and believe me, its very strong..But he seems fascinated by it and he's quite capable of holding his grip against it and just sitting there getting a "water massage". 

And a video of by denison barbs from today. I think they have grown since I got them a few weeks back. The video doesn't do them justice because they are in a shadow. But at least it helped me count them. There are still 9 healthy denison barbs in there..and 5 SAEs    I had fed them 30 min prior to taking the video but when they see me standing there they come near me for food, every time now...It took them a couple of weeks to do so though but they picked up fast enough  In about 0:50 I zoomed on them so it gives a better view..


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## sciencefiction (4 Dec 2016)

Don't know why my camera phone takes those vertical videos....very annoying....

Anyway, here below are my SAEs fighting over zucchini. They keep kicking each other away from it until the pleco comes over and stops the fight, lol...They do that over dry food too..I haven't seen them do that to the denison barbs so I am guessing its some sort of dominance behaviour and establishing hierarchy amongst themselves...


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## sciencefiction (4 Dec 2016)

I stripped away the damaged parts of the water hyacinths and "anchored" them in one spot somehow with my floating planters so they don't get moved by the flow.  If they don't float around "annoying" the clown loaches they may not get attacked. The loaches do that for fun rather than eating plants...I also put two small plants in two of my other tanks to see how they do in there...They won't make it in the big tank. Pity as they look so nice in the pond...

I am wondering if I could make some "floating islands" with mesh and this type of foam below?

http://www.efoam.ie/closed-cell-polyethylene-foam.php?gclid=CIDJhcbg2tACFQmdGwod_3YMMw


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## sciencefiction (10 Dec 2016)

A new video although looking all the same....just to show my floating plants battling nitrogen deficiency of some kind...I doubled what I was initially dosing, now I am going to treble it...At least it seems with the profito fe I overcame the iron problems...for now...

The fish have been acting extremely hungry these days....not that its a bad thing but they've turned into pigs inside this tank. I am still feeding twice a day and everyone has learned my work schedule  and waits patiently around those times  At weekends I drop bits of food every so often when the small ones start gathering near the "front" because I've got little time during the week to feed them well enough considering they are just fry...

There you can clearly see old leaves damage on the floaters.. The same has happened to my parlour palm over the week so not just one plant is affected. Funny though that whatever those fish produce nitrogen wise, the amounts of food I feed, etc.... plus ferts, is still below what the amount the plants are using...That and water changes I suppose because my tap water is pretty void of nitrates...I am pretty certain its the big emersed ones that mop majority of the minerals, especially now with even more light...I've also raised the water level so the tank water freely runs into the baskets as well.

I know nitrate tests are extremely inaccurate and I don't own one currently but I remember in my previous tank when my emersed plants were huge, the few times I tested the water for nitrates, I barely got any reading whatsoever...and all my floaters died too then....I need to learn to dose way more....


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## sciencefiction (11 Dec 2016)

Today I caught my kuhli loaches to move them into the round tank....I was nicely surprised....When the tank they initially lived in broke and poured all its contents on the floor, I saved only 5 kuhli loaches out of original stocking of 8....I could not find the rest at all and those that I found were either on the floor, under the stand! or burried in the waterless sand somehow ( months later I found a dried up kuhli...or rather my dog brought it from somewhere.)...So I thought that now I have only 5 kuhli loaches and when catching them today in the crypt overgrown small tank I counted until 5, dumped them in the round bucket and then went on to pull some plants out and mess with the little tank..And then here goes another kuhli loach swirling amongst plants 

 I don't know if at the time I counted wrongly or they have produced an offspring that went unnoticed...Either way, I am happy that my kuhli have been doing well.... I don't know how they'll get on with the clown loaches...They've never lived together before.....I am a bit worried about the kuhlis not being very competitive for food but they are sand sifters so some goodies will certainly come across..hopefully...I also moved their coconut cave...They've now disappeared.
I


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## sciencefiction (11 Dec 2016)

The kuhlis have found their cave straight away  They did a tiny bit of exploring too, mainly around the coconut cave but were being curious of their new surroundings. Fingers crossed they do ok in there...

Now I can use my small tank for quarantine if I decide to get another group of top dwellers of some kind ...I also accidentally dropped some cherry shrimp in the round tank because I caught them in the net while catching the kuhlis....My small tank is absolutely buzzing with shrimp.....I think there's hundreds in there...


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## sciencefiction (12 Dec 2016)

This morning my baby clown loach came out from the kuhli loaches coconut cave, ha ha. He slept with them too while in quarantine in my small tank


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## zozo (12 Dec 2016)

sciencefiction said:


> I killed a beautiful floater I can't remember the name off, but quite rare...


Aeschynomene fluitans.  Me too never got it to grow and killed it in a few months time.. At one point i thought i had it comming back, but it did only for a short time and died again. I have no idea why it died on me, it wasn't a obvious insufficientcy because the rest did good.. I suspect it might be something as calcium or magnesium shortage but realy do not know. Didn't experiment with it.. Only know Roy grew it in his previous shallow and very good too and he has rather hard water and mine is medium towards the soft range.. It indeed is a rare plant to get and i can only get it temporary if i'm fast enough with ordering it. I'll try again if i can get my hands on it next year.


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## sciencefiction (12 Dec 2016)

Yeah, Marcel, that plant gave up on me fairly fast  My water has plenty of calcium and magnesium so I don't think itst that but in my tank it could have been iron, nitrogen... as I was dealing with severe forms at the time, especially iron, and the plant threw some rather pale growth before it died....Or it could have been too much water movement, lack of light, etc.. or a combo of all  I didn't give it a good start but didn't expect it to be so fragile..


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## dw1305 (12 Dec 2016)

Hi all,





sciencefiction said:


> lack of light,


Would be my guess. A lot of tropical floaters (<"_Ludwigia sedoides">, Eichornia crassipes,Victoria amazonica_) are really difficult to over-winter in the UK, probably <"because of low light levels">.

cheers Darrel


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## mort (12 Dec 2016)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,Would be my guess. A lot of tropical floaters (<"_Ludwigia sedoides">, Eichornia crassipes,Victoria amazonica_) are really difficult to over-winter in the UK, probably <"because of low light levels">.
> 
> cheers Darrel



I've also read this specifically with water hyacinth and as its now a banned species in Europe I wonder how long we will keep seeing it.


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## sciencefiction (12 Dec 2016)

I got more light but it was probably too late....There's now the 90W Kessil and overhanging 30W flood light.....The water hyacinth is not doing well either but it got chomped up by the clown loaches by the time I realized....the clowns were clicking at it but for some reason I didn't bother checking out the plants to see the big holes in the "meaty" bottom part of the plants.... I am not sure they'll will recover. They're looking pretty miserable and the two plants I moved to two of the other tanks aren't doing any better there either. I even placed one in a bowl the other day in which I have salvinia and tons of ferts to see what will "fix" the lot because the salvinia is also constantly nitrogen deficient in the tank and although growing, the leaves are rather small....

If I can't grow floaters than I might as well give up on the lot of plants, lol  The parlour palm and the peace lily got yellowing on old leaves in the space of a week....it looks like nitrogen deficiency but unless it's phosporous.....which I do not dose cause I don't have any right now...There were a few yellow leaves on the crypts too...My dry KNO3 is not working much so far but I am testing a triple dose this week and will keep upping it up till I fix it or I am sure its not nitrogen...I think the extra light gave the above water plants another push in ferts need because they've been throwing lots of new growth.....These plants have established "water" roots so they don't need much care to start growing fast...and I think they're consuming a lot...The water lilies and the palm grow root system as big as the hanging buckets they are in....So I think they are quite capable out-competing the rest of the plants I have. I certainly could not grow salvinia in my previous soil tank either....lol  only rooted plants in the substrate did well...and the large emersed plants....

The emersed plants did really well when I had the "no water change" experiment for about 5-6 months, non-stop flowers and the lot....not the fish though...Some of my platies got sick so the expriment ended and is never to be repeated...It's hard to make plants and fish happy at the same time sometimes...


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## three-fingers (13 Dec 2016)

This thread was a great read! Sorry to hear about your past fish disasters though.  I've been planning a small goldfish pond in my garden...now I'm tempted to just stick it in the living room lol.

Love your happy clowns! I always wanted clown loaches but avoided them due to their eventual size, awesome to see yours have a perfect home. I still have 4 Yo-Yo loaches and anywhere between 2 and 6 khulis in my 5x2x2 that I'm shutting down, no idea how I'm going to catch them . Their behavior seems very similar to your loaches, I'll be re-homing them to a tank I visit often but will miss them!


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## Rob Manning (14 Dec 2016)

Just read through the whole log and a great read it is too. 

I also tried the fluitans and had similar results. Good success initially with good growth. However, when it goes it goes fast. I would love to try again at some point.

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk


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## sciencefiction (15 Dec 2016)

three-fingers said:


> 've been planning a small goldfish pond in my garden...now I'm tempted to just stick it in the living room lol.


Ha, ha. You won't regret it. You just need to put the sofa away  



Rob Manning said:


> Just read through the whole log and a great read it is too.



Thanks rob. 
I'd like to try it too one more time but I'll wait until I sort the plant deficiencies I have now.


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## sciencefiction (15 Dec 2016)

So here's a photo with a view of some of the damaged plants. They yellow leaf on the peace lily that appeared last week and is now almost bright yellow, and at the bottom below is what remains from the water hyacinth...



 


This picture below is salvinia from the tank with obvious nitrogen deficiency.


 


And this one below is from a bowl of water loaded with ferts to the point of discolouring the water. No deficiencies in there 
There's plastic on top because I have some anubias in there that has its leaves above water and it doesn't like air..


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## sciencefiction (16 Dec 2016)

I barely made it home on time to catch the light hours....crazy busy these days.....

But had enough time to put my chin on the edge of the tank and watch the fish for 20 min or so  pure pleasure....It helps my brain relax after a hard week 

What I've noticed since my loaches are in this tank, is how friendly they've become...(repeating myself...I know....They also seem to be stalking me...They tend to swim right under my face when I am there. I got up to check out the emergent plants on the opposite side of the tank and the fish followed me there with their noses right up looking at me...I think that despite the nature of the tank, I am able to see the fish a lot more, from a lot closer distance than I have ever had....Clown loaches are by nature spooky and skittish fish and its amazing how relaxed they are now...I wish more people tried keeping fish like that just to see the difference in behavour...I am sure fish like platies or guppies or other highly friendly fish won't care one bit but skittish fish really come out of their shell when given their privacy in my experience so far...And I think the only downside is that I can't capture what I see on video(probably because of my skills)...but the view of the fish is better and clearer than ever...I can pretty much see the colour of their eyes and details of their body shape...They look great to me, and extremely happy  Fingers crossed...

The clown loaches also seem to have released a bit of a darker pigment on their bodies. I know clowns can alter their colours depending on substrate but they are doing that now because of the dark sides of the tank.....just noting...

Another thing....the plastic tank seems to keep the water temperature really warm and steady...Perhaps because it is designed for outside use...and the medium density polyethylene plastic is a better insulator than glass.

We had a few warm days outside here(its still winter) and the temperature in the tank rose although the heaters settings weren't touched....I have the heaters on 25C...The temperature in the tank is 26C. I initially had the heaters on 26C when I first set it up, then I decreased it to 25C to accommodate the denison barbs and SAEs but the temperature never dropped....hmmmm. I've got two 300W jager eheim heaters in there...I was dreading the electric bill but it was pleasantly the same as always despite the amount of water and an extra 300W heater....

I pulled all the nitrogen deficient leaves from the salvinia to make sure the damaged leaves are not old stuff getting me confused...I dosed a lot of KNO3 during this last week, more like 4 times my initial dose and I think I have reached a dose that stops the nitrogen deficiency...at least salvinia wise...

The denison barbs and SAEs seem to be doing great and I am already seeing them being bold enough to swim right next to the clown loaches. It took my baby clown loach a couple of weeks to realize the bigger clown loaches aren't a threat to him and I think the denison barbs and the SAEs have figured the same too...When I approach the tank the barbs and the SAEs always swim on the left side and the clowns on the right side(have no clue whey this order) but right next to each other and mixing up together quite often...I can't wait for the little guys to grow a bit so they don't have to wait for scraps, ha, ha 

I am still deliberating whether to get another school of fish inside the tank....I am not pushed because I got lucky enough not quarantining these new fish and I don't want to ever look at a crowded tank in my life again....I had a horrible time during last year cramming fish into the one tank only....I have mentioned on another thread many died....There were nights I couldn't sleep from guilty conscience.....

I just want a school of top dwellers because none of these fish are and I think one more species of suitable fish will just complete the view I have of the tank...And I want them small enough...platy size type but not platies anymore....sick of them...I have a separate thread on the topic but every fish I think of seems to be unsuitable according to majority...and no one can suggest anything I like.....I think people tend to think my clown loaches are savages .... But I swear they won't touch even quite tiny fish...I've seen platy fry for years being ignored....The only problem would come from skittish small fish being stressed by the mere size of the loaches, rather than them ever being attacked....which is important on its own because I don't want fish that would feel stressed....

I have my small tank empty of fish now so I can risk and quarantine fish...It's just that I don't know what and I need it to be top dwelling fish because there's enough of bottom feeders.....though the denison barbs will not touch a thing at the bottom...They just don't swim at the top, they swim at the bottom or mid level but will not it anything that hits the substrate..how awkward  The SAEs are definately bottom fish in my opinion, or perhaps they are naturally....They behave a lot like loaches, but algae eating loaches...

And last paragraph....I had issues before with ordering from ta-aquaculture in the past for those that know that website.....I ordered again recently, two full weeks ago...I got nothing. I send an e-mail....no reply....I am going to have to resort to paypal again to get my money back...very poor service....The previous time I only got a reply from them after I opened a claim with paypal, after numerous emails....I don't know why I bother with them.....

Have a nice weekend everyone..


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## zozo (17 Dec 2016)

Take a look at this.. Just pictures is enough i guess to tell the story, or use google translate..

http://www.hobbykwekers.nl/artikelen/item/dhz-kamervijver


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## sciencefiction (17 Dec 2016)

He, he. Thanks zozo. I don't think I need a google translator  Nice

A bit of a video of the barbs again...and a clown loach occupying the kuhli loaches coconut cave. I wonder where the kuhlis are...


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## Andy Thurston (17 Dec 2016)

sciencefiction said:


> I just want a school of top dwellers because none of these fish are and I think one more species of suitable fish will just complete the view I have of the tank...And I want them small enough...platy size type but not platies anymore....sick of them...I have a separate thread on the topic but every fish I think of seems to be unsuitable according to majority...and no one can suggest anything I like.....I think people tend to think my clown loaches are savages .... But I swear they won't touch even quite tiny fish...I've seen platy fry for years being ignored....The only problem would come from skittish small fish being stressed by the mere size of the loaches, rather than them ever being attacked....which is important on its own because I don't want fish that would feel stressed....


More Clowns
The denison were more of a problem than the clowns regarding other fish. I used to keep 20 glass catfish with my clowns, they even got involved in feeding with all the other fish, until i added 10 juvenile denison barbs to my tank, 6 months later all the glass cats were gone

I miss my big tank and the space i had.  it seems easier to keep fish happy and healthy when you have enough room to set up different areas for different species.


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## sciencefiction (17 Dec 2016)

Andy Thurston said:


> More Clowns



Don't tempt me Andy  ha, ha...



Andy Thurston said:


> The denison were more of a problem than the clowns regarding other fish. I used to keep 20 glass catfish with my clowns, they even got involved in feeding with all the other fish, until i added 10 juvenile denison barbs to my tank, 6 months later all the glass cats were gone.
> 
> I miss my big tank and the space i had. it seems easier to keep fish happy and healthy when you have enough room to set up different areas for different species.



Sorry to hear about your glass cats. Yes, very true, large tanks keep fish way healthier, even the smallest of species....I do not enjoy small tanks one bit...its kind of torture looking at the fish in there to be honest. Only specific species do well in small tanks I think...What was the issue with the denison barbs?...too competitive for food I guess...judging by mine now...


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## Andy Thurston (17 Dec 2016)

not sure, the denisons would ram the glass cats to take food and they were too quick for them to get out of the way. my clowns used to feed at the surface and then move on to collect food on the substrate, this gave the cats chance to feed. the dennisons would feed mid water and take the food before them. the stress from feeding time probably finished them off, they were about 4 years old too.

ha ha more clowns will push the dennisons into the higher waters, which would give the tank that nice full look with fish everywhere I would send you my remaining 4 clowns if they were not so used to really soft water, the pond looks superb!

I suspect that your past bba probs were caused by the clowns picking at the plants the bba in my clown tank looked very similar. I think that it is possible to keep clowns with plants but only very robust species, expect some damage and algae around the damage.


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## sciencefiction (17 Dec 2016)

Thanks Andy 

I might in the end get 2-3 more baby clowns and call it a day with the stocking, ha, ha....The denison barbs do come to the surface to feed now and as you said, so do the clowns but they swim down afterwards to find the fallen leftovers giving a chance to other fish to eat...



Andy Thurston said:


> I suspect that your past bba probs were caused by the clowns picking at the plants the bba in my clown tank looked very similar. I think that it is possible to keep clowns with plants but only very robust species, expect some damage and algae around the damage.



You could be right about that...the clowns click at almost every newly grown anubias leaf but if the leaf is old they don't bother.....I've gotten used to looking at plant leaves with a hole in them.. The SAEs did start picking at algae which hopefully will keep things in check..The rest of algae issues will hopefully be prevented by fresh water and relatively low organic load. The BBA I transferred from the old tank isn't visibly spreading or growing in any way, so far...even with more light but I noticed one of my large anubias from an upright position, moved itself and is now horizontally lying almost over the substrate  I think its trying to escape the light  The clowns seem to love anubias though...They tend to squeeze themselves inside some of the nana anubias bunches and lay there happily  And they forage every plant pot for food too  I think they dislike the crypts though, no visible damage besides turning the pots sideways


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## alto (17 Dec 2016)

Don't give up on finding an upper dwelling species - it will come


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## sciencefiction (17 Dec 2016)

Thanks alto. The search is still ongoing 

Here's the weekly episode of the clown loaches. I had already fed them when I took this video but had forgotten to press the record button so I took a second one with some extra food...I also just hand fed the SAE's  It was the first time they came to my hand, they were so cute but my phone was not reachable with my other hand so couldn't record it...next time..


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## sciencefiction (17 Dec 2016)

I found an old video of my clowns from the year I bought them...They must be nearing 4.5 - 5 years now in fairness...The video is featuring my dog Angie. She was just a cute puppy then 

The laser corys with the "pin" tails arrived like that in my online order. They were put in bags with tiny bit of water and half their bodies were outside the water when I unpacked...The tails never really recovered.


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## sciencefiction (18 Dec 2016)

Doing a water change....and getting SAE spa trearment  I am sure I am algae free now


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## sciencefiction (22 Dec 2016)

I came back home today a bit late and the lights were off but I couldn't resist and turned on the room light to take a look. What I saw was loaches lined up against the side of the tank in a row....chilling...Big loach laying on his side in a typical "sleep" clown loach position....happy as larry....He wasn't very bothered by me turning on the room light...Then I decided to let them know I am around and started talking to them..lol....They weren't very interested at first but eventually got up of their lazy bums and came over near the surface to see what the fuss was about


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## sciencefiction (23 Dec 2016)

sciencefiction said:


> Well, I got 9 cute baby harlequin rasboras.....They've just been acclimated and are in my small tank with two more baby clown loaches....I know very little about these rasboras and like a newbie, I asked the owner of the shop(its a small local shop). He said they're from Indonesia, same water where clown loaches come(he knows what fish I keep) and the water there he says is with ph between 7 and 7.6... Funny, because I found a paper on breeding clown loaches and it says exactly the same....high ph...where everyone seems to think clown loaches come from soft acidic water....I'll post it if anyone is interested...
> 
> 6 of the rasboras started schooling around straight away but 3 are hiding. I know the rasboras are quite common but they are super cute......
> 
> One of the clown loaches is breathing heavily and is pretty stressed from what I can tell....we'll see how it goes...They spent about 2 hrs in the bags..but I am pretty certain they were at least two weeks in the shop because one of them is a spotted loach and he was there the last time.



I copied and pasted this from my other thread.....was too lazy to write down the same thing again...

By the time I did other things around, all the 9 rasboras were out schooling and the two clowns were exploring so not too much to worry about right now. I just need to be on top of water changes because the little tank they are in has had no fish bar the shrimp since I moved the corys and kuhli loaches out. These rasboras are extremely cute....I already love them, common but extremely beautiful fish and I love the way they behave...They were very pale while acclimating but same as my denison barbs, returned colour pretty fast once in the target tank....

If the clowns get ick, it will severely mess up my tank because I'd have to treat with heat and salt, and kill the hundreds of shrimp in there...The shrimp can't stand the salt...I hope I won't need to...because I'd have to move out the shrimp first.....This is the 5th time I quarantine new clown loaches(5,1,1,2,2 with one jumper to a total of 10 surviving) and I only dealt with ick once..with a single loach which is so big now I can't tell him apart from the older loaches....He did very well during the treatment and he grew very fast because I overfed him....cost me a severe diatom and blue green algae outbreak a year and a half ago in the same tank I have these new fish in..

For anyone interested, the link below is about attempts on breeding clown loaches but it has info on optimum temperatures(not the only source that quotes 26c ideal for clown loaches and temperatures anything beyond 29C being bad and can kill small clown loach fry) and also Ph of their water in the wild ( apparently it varies between 6.86-8.00 but nothing like the soft/acidic suggested in most sources online)and although I was pretty certain clown loaches do not mind high ph one bit, I have the proof for it...Hence I keep buying fish from similar water. I think the info online is messed up....or my interpretation of it is messed up ....

 I saw clowns that were kept in extremely acidic water(as suggested online...peat swamps and the like), and were in a horrible state....not because of not being looked after or the tank was left unkept...I also came across info that kuhli loaches(again same online suggestions for soft water preferences if you browse around....actually get spinal deformities in time when kept in soft water...)I read and watched an online video of harlequin rasboras in the wild and depending on collection spot, the can be found in the same water as clowns...so I stick to the "scientific papers" and nature youtube videos and not common say...I could be wrong...but I have the best intentions and they won't be my first casualties should I be wrong and  the worst happens...

Clown loaches breeding attempts paper
https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:916235/FULLTEXT01.pdf

Happy Christmas everyone

All the best.


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## sciencefiction (24 Dec 2016)

Please excuse the horrible pictures and the state of the tank..... ....I just wanted to show some cute little harequin rasbora fry. The tank is healthy and is water changed a lot but I sort of don't overclean it as in wiping it sparkling looking because it works well with shrimp. They munch on the glass stuff, and the other decor, whatever develops there...The shrimp actually got spooked out by the fish for a bit, acting very scared...but I don't think they have anything to fear of...
The hydrophila, a high iron sponge, has been just surviving in there because I forget to dose this tank.

I moved one of the outlets down  and pushed the other tiny internal down because I added some salvinia and I don't want it to be bashed around...just before I added the fish, the shrimp were all over the salvinia...they loved the floating plants.


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## sciencefiction (29 Dec 2016)

I'll start with the bad news. I lost one of the harlequin rasboras. I found it floating on the surface last Sunday morning on Christmas day. Its probably a combination of rushing the acclimation on Friday evening because I also had to unpack the Christmas food shopping, plus too many fish at once in a tank left without fish and food for a while, all newbie sort of mistakes...but I think there was an ammonia spike of some sort judging by the fish. On Sunday, after scooping the dead fish out, I took one of my old prefilter sponges that sat on the external filters for years, hooked that up to an eheim pump I have and to a broken eheim external on which the motor doesn't work but I now use just the body of it for filter media. The flow is a bit excessive...blew all the floaters away but it seemed to have done the trick filtration wise as later that day I could see by the fish they were feeling better.

 The remaining 8 plus the 2 clowns are still in there.  I think they are over the hurdle...I hope...but there is nothing worse than introduce fish to an ammonia/nitrite spiking tank...

There they are below feeding. I have to turn off the external to feed them. I crushed some food as I don't even own small enough food for them. I also give them chopped frozen food like bloodworms and some mixture one that contains all sorts of insects.  They seem to shoot to the surface to feed and they don't pick up anything that goes below half way down. They seem very young so they'll stay in this tank for a while. I hope they make it fine to get transitioned to the other tank.



and a close up video. They seem to also spend quite a bit of time going to the filter flow and getting blown....not sure if its good or bad but they go there on purpose.


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## sciencefiction (30 Dec 2016)

There they are below swimming in the flow...I know too much flow is not good for these fish but I can't reduce the flow with the alternative filter setup. The thing is, the fish don't do it all the time. I am certain they've learned their way around the tank and where the flow is because they swam just fine around for hours around without getting caught in the flow. Then at some stage they seem to have gotten bored and all of them just started swimming in and out of the where the spraybar flow hits the glass..They either think its fun or its a stress response...I can't tell.


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## sciencefiction (30 Dec 2016)

I think the Halrequin rasboras are getting a bit more coloured by the day. I could be imagining though. I took another video of them today when they don't bother playing in the flow...I am still trying to learn their habits and what's normal behaviour and what's not....Even youtube can't help too much with that.. The only thing now is to see how long they'll fair in my hard water...I am probably being cruel getting them but anything that gets bought from my local shop will end up in hard water. And as I mentioned previously, I am hoping that they'll do as well as my other fish that come from the same area of the world...They are otherwise the perfect top dweller fish I wanted to get. I wish there were more in the shop because 8 small fish will get lost in a bigger space...



In my other tank I've noticed my baby clown loach has made friends with one of my 4-5 year old loaches, the first ones I ever bought. I call this older loach Mr. Grey. From day one since I bought him he always greys out with the lights on even though all his other friends would rarely do to such an extent...I was worried for a long time he was sick of something I could not see....He's been now seen daily browsing and hanging around with the baby loach. He even follows the small loach for food, the small loach follows the barbs and SAEs when I feed them with the lights on, sort of a chain effect. I've noticed loaches have very different personalities and habits and some are more outgoing than others as a rule.


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## sciencefiction (30 Dec 2016)

By the way...I keep noticing my java fern on these videos. This java fern sorry looking plant you may see out the back is about 6+ years old and that's the most its grown. It's been in almost every tank I've had...It's attached to a tiny peace of wood....I could never ever grow that damn "easy" to grow plant. My narrow leaf variety is suffering as much... I have bits of it left in the other tank....almost no growth in 3+ years, just somehow surviving and growing enough leaves to do so...I've no idea why....My guess is micro nutrient sucker and my water is limited on that.,,,though I've read it loves rich potassium...only guessing. Also, you can see my always iron limited hydrophila....pale new leaves....I don't bother much at all in this small tank. 

Some plants are more sensitive to certain nutrient limitations than others and my crypts are not that much bothered with very rare dosing. I do need to clean up the algae on the glass though if I keep posting videos online  I just see no other reason to do so.....There are times when an army of shrimp invades the glass when they are super hungry. They would also eat it immediately if I scrape it off, or disturb it in a similar manner...even if I rub on it with my hands... Otherwise its super tough for them to get to...so it tends to stay...I suppose it has turned into layers of biofilm of all sorts of creatures by now.....I got it with the algae outbreaks a long enough time ago and never cleaned it off since.. I sort of like the look...don't blame me..


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## sciencefiction (31 Dec 2016)

Well, it looks that those little harlequins have brought in mouth rot/columnaris. I just saw one of them with its mouth wide open and sort of rotting. I don't know if this fish will make it after this and how contagious it is, and the first death may have been related....It makes more sense now to me..  I had some old seachem kanaplex/kanamycin sulfate and I dosed the first dose. I only have enough for 2-3 doses max. I am pretty sure now I saw the mouth fungus on the fish two days ago on one of the videos I took but thought its a distortion of some kind due to me zooming on the fish. It was impossible to see with the naked eye..Today its clearly visible... Ah, well...first time for everything...I am glad now I didn't put these fish in the other tank...

Here it is


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## sciencefiction (2 Jan 2017)

The fish on the picture above died within an hour of my post. It was too late to be saved...These fish are so tiny it was almost impossible to see the white rot on its mouth when it hadnt yet developed...and I wasnt looking for it too either....There was also damage at the base of the dorsal. I am pretty certain it is columnaris but doesnt seem like a severely aggressive strain.

I am on the second dose of antibiotics. It is supposed to be effective against columnaris..I am lucky i had it on hand though I dont know how effective it is because I bought it 4 years ago.. 

It seems to me the disease takes about 3 days to kill a fish and the fish must have had it when I bought them because I moved out perfectly healthy fish out if this tank prior.

On a positive note I think that for some reason the treatment has perked up the clown loaches alot..not sure why..Now all these fish are doomed to stay in this tank for a few months...if they make it through..fingers crossed that was the last casualty...


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## sciencefiction (3 Jan 2017)

Sorry about the noise on the video...The remaining 7 while I have them... I can see them better in the video...So far they are holding on but its been just 3 days since treatment started and the last death. Strange though that despite the lesions the dead fish had not lost any colour and was swimming with the rest less than an hour before it died...

The rest are looking almost a red colour..they are so dark...And they keep swimming normally. I cant see any issue at the moment...


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## sciencefiction (5 Jan 2017)

Well, more boring details about my sick fish....The remainder 7 are holding on and I can't see any external signs of infections. They ate bloodworms today readily..The treatment will be over tomorrow...Its supposed to be just 6 days....I am deliberating at adding one more dose as normally antibiotics are supposed to be dosed for around 10 days but it doesn't say so on the instructions on this one....I just have enough left for one more dose.

 I am a bit worried about one of the clown loaches, hides a lot and I can't see him come out for food. I've never had a small loach that is skittish. There are/were snails and baby shrimplets in the tank so he won't starve...but I wouldn't know. He looks ok otherwise...better than the better behaved loach The other loach is paler, was very pale in the shop too, like a sheet of paper and has not gained too much colour but is going after food quite readily. I do see them browse the tank when the lights are off mostly, again quite uncommon for young loaches to be skittish and not playing around. I've had single baby loaches go bananas non stop so far...I hope once the treatment is over they do a bit better..I know they'd do way better in the bigger tank but sadly can't risk it...One of the reasons I was having doubts about getting friends for my earlier small loach is because the rest of the stock in the shop was poor...maybe I shouldn't have bothered...but I already have them....There could be another issue with them...I'll have to wait and see...


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## sciencefiction (6 Jan 2017)

I decided against the last dose of antibiotics....I have dosed as much as its recommended. I did another large water change and put two carbon pads in my old internal filter which in fact came with the filter when I bought it many years ago, but I had never used....I see no external signs...no need to stress the fish further..Time will tell...I think the antibiotic did its job to prevent anymore deaths and that's about as much as antibiotic can do...Now its time for the immune system to kick back in...            

The strange thing is that when I drained the water from the tank, down to just 30% of water, the "non-eating" clown loach came out to eat the pellets I had just put before the water change.  It was the first time I put these pellets. They are larger ones I feed my larger clown loaches with and they are crazy about them. He did not come out at all while I wasn't doing a water change. I watched him for 15min and although the other loach was munching, this one wasnt...too much flow maybe...but without the filters on he went for it..I know I had to shut down my powerhead years ago for the same reasons with my other clowns....They hated extreme flow....I have a 1250l/h Eheim pump through the old eheim filter and another 450l/h internal filter on a 60-ish litre tank.....anyway just observing and talking aloud...

On another hand, those rasboras keep going right under the spraybar flow....playing...Then they get tired and retire in the other half of the tank swimming just fine...I normally have to get up very early, the tank lights are then off, and I see them scattered around the tank, including in the higher flow area, just hanging in one spot with no problem..sleeping..So I am guessing/hoping the play in the flow is just a play...They do seem to like it...They look ok...if it wasn't the sickness thing..I'd say they look very good..colour and all...

After all this worry about this tank..I have not spent any time observing my other fish...busy holidays and all...I looked for a couple of minutes today...and gosh...those denison barbs have put up some length and girth. So has my other very young clown loach. He's twice as wide as my "sickly" new loaches and a big tail longer. He seems like a very happy bunny...a very outgoing fish....He was like that while he was quarantined in that same tank I am treating right now...Clown loaches have such different personalities and I think I got two very shy ones this time...or very sick ones...


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## sciencefiction (8 Jan 2017)

I want to show how well the denison barbs and SAEs get on together. They swim in one big school. The little clown loach often joins them and it seems the others have gotten used to him being amongst them.

My floaters as you can see, are still struggling. I haven't dosed kno3 in two weeks...just to see how the plants would do and they don't do well....They also got stranded under water around the baskets last week as the water level dropped too low..so they are looking worse for it...I hadn't filled the tank high enough after the previous water change.

Its beautiful to watch the fish move around the tank. They are also easy subjects to video because they come the moment I stand near the tank...



My parlour palm flowered about two weeks ago...Its the spiky looking thing right in the center...


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## sciencefiction (8 Jan 2017)

And some clown loaches below. The problem now is that the camera keeps focusing on the floating plants and blurs the fish underneath..Its the best I can do unless I get an underwater camera...


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## sciencefiction (8 Jan 2017)

I was just feeding the fish and all of a sudden I noticed all kuhli loaches come out for food too. It was sort of terrifying to watch for the first moment  They look like wiggling worms and extremely small compared to the loaches...They actually were hanging out mostly amongst the driftwood and two came out under one of the plastic pots which is somehow tilted on one side  I kept watching for a while...thankfully the clown loaches completely ignore them and were sifting around them without showing any interest... but the kuhlis do look like fish's dinner. My big loach is massive and I've no doubt if she/he wants to, she can eat them like spaghetti... They've so far never attacked any fish that I ever saw or was gone missing...Nevertheless, the mere size difference doesn't feel comfortable to watch..


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## sciencefiction (9 Jan 2017)

A cute video of the SAEs eating literally from my hand. They've become pretty good at raiding my hands. In fact I need to feed them when doing water changes or they won't leave me alone..


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## sciencefiction (12 Jan 2017)

Hey...
Just to report that the rasboras and 2 baby loaches seem to be doing fine after the treatment and theré's no bouts of diseases anymore. The rasboras are fiery red, great colour and totally not afraid of water changes now...They were terrified at the start...

 Now I've also seen both loaches feeding just fine. The day after I posted previously about the second loach not been seen eating, I actually saw him munch on a snail...so no wonder he doesn't care that much about food time....the reason I always quarantine them in a tank with snails.....I've got this tiny species of ramshorn snails that are the only ones not being out competed by the very large shrimp population...I've lost the big red ramshorns and malaysian trumpets in this tank completely.. When you have shrimp...snails don't do well...not these snails though...These snails are about a bite size, max out at 3-4mm adults, fit  for a small clown loach  But besides that...after paying a lot more attention, he's been eating,..just catching the pellets out the back and not comping to the front. He seems to like the spot under the internal filter... I can't wait to move them to the other tank...My other loach would love the company of peer sized loaches but I think I'll give it another few weeks before I do....not looking forward to the catching


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## sciencefiction (13 Jan 2017)

The best picture of a denison barb I managed, capturing the colours...It took me just about 50 clicks... Impossible due to the angle and light spread...They are beautiful though...very colourful fish...And I totally like their habits, interesting to watch..though the SAEs are complete nutters, very funny fish..


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## sciencefiction (14 Jan 2017)

A video of my algae ridden quarantine tank again, ha, ha...Its really unpleasant and looks manky but if I scrape all that algae off the glass, the tank may look really good because there's no algae on the plants..... But as far as other maintenance goes I do large water changes and in the last 21 days I did 12 large water changes to boost the immune system of my new sickly fish....I think old tanks like this (this one is about 5 years old with the same substrate) do really good for baby clown loaches who many people find hard to keep alive at this age....at least I've had success like this although its never too late to ginx it..

The video features the two small clown loaches hiding under the sponge @ around 0:40 and in the end of the video..though the algae patch blurrs one out.....And the rasboras...They look larger on the video than they are because I've zoomed in but they are rather small and I wonder how big these fish grow....because if they don't get a bit larger than this I might leave them in this tank...They've started to have a real good appetite which can only be a good sign I hope..


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## sciencefiction (15 Jan 2017)

Tried to take some still pictures of the rasboras...Came out mostly blurry as usual


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## sciencefiction (16 Jan 2017)

I was watching the round tank with all tank's lights off for the last 20min or so.....

And I was enjoying a kuhli loach show..Kuhlis everywhere  In this tank they dare go out only when at least the central kessil light is off but more so when there's just a subdued light from my other small plastic tank...In the previous tank they came out during light hours all the time...The previous tank being the one you've seen above with the rasboras, and the cover of the crypts was enough for them to venture out...What I find really funny right now...is that I've noticed, in the big round tank is, when they see danger ...they wrap themselves either around a stone, a plastic pot or one of the many glass pots I have in there...They actually travel by wrapping themselves around the decoration....The same decorations dispersed around works really good with the clown loaches...They weave themselves around the pots and it seems to work well with their confidence 

So far I don't see anyone bothering the kuhlis whatsoever, despite my fears....though a few more years will tell the true story....These kuhli loaches had lived almost by themselves as long as I've had them for...about 4 years or more...But I think....they absolutely love the space....I see them even during water changes flying the sides of the tank, same as the SAE's love to do......although I can't take  proper video yet..They are too fast  for me....or the conditions too dark...But knowing their usual behaviour in a smaller tank...they are having a great time right now...I think they've adapted well. May they live long and happy lives...and my clown loaches don't turn into some carnivrous monsters....Though I highly doubt it...I think clowns are mostly invertebrates and even detritus eaters through sifting sand.....So far my clowns have ignored any but newly born... a couple of mm old fry..but they love fish eggs...


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## sciencefiction (24 Jan 2017)

Took a picture of the pond the other day. The flood light out the back looks like natural sun rays hitting the tank  






And here is a not so good video of one of the baby clowns venturing open waters. His fins are not a deep orange colour yet but we'll get there. I can't remember if my other clowns had deep orange fins at this age..but at 3-4 months they definitely do.
Both clowns seem to be feeling better these days and are a lot more active around the tank. I've had them for a full month now. I keep doing the water changes to keep the tank in best possible conditions and as a matter of fact my normally not very well growing, iron deficient hydrophila, is doing a lot better too  It is still slightly deficient looking but is growing fast and bushy.
Sorry again about the algae on the glass, makes things impossible to see....

The clown is not "fully coloured" normal clown loach colour yet but his yellow/orange area was actually extremely pale when I got him and his black was also very faded so now he looks great in comparison...



And here is a pic of the second one loaching out the back. His colour is more normal, the orange is orange looking and not yellowish like on the the clown on the video but the difference was far greater a few weeks back so things are going in the right direction.




Compare the above clowns to my older baby clown loach...which I've had for several months now..


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## sciencefiction (3 Feb 2017)

Hey all..

Still dealing with a pale clown loach about which I am sort of worried, very much paler in comparison to the other but full of energy, eating and browsing around. Both baby clowns are out and about almost all the time now, lights on and off. They've really come out of their shells. I am sttill doing large water changes every 2nd day to which all fish have accustomed really well not taking any notion of me whatsoever.

 Here are the clowns after eating almost a whole cube of bloodworms by themselves and sort of chilling at the front..They seem to need a digestion period after that...I noticed this before with the previous baby clowns that had access to a lot of food...



Tank glass is so murky and still uncleaned( no reason to upset the fish by scraping it to be honest  and I've got bad habits when it comes to glass since I was a kid...which in fact saved some of my fish because it acts as additional filtration..)

But if one could look beyond the dirty glass...it ain't that bad...a small attempt below...











What I found really amazing recently...after doing these large water changes for the fish every 2nd day for the last 6 weeks., is that my always super iron sensitive/deficient hydrophila, which was struggling and not growing in this tank(too small for it too)... has sort of exploded in growth...And it is still iron deficient!!! but not so much and its getting something else via the water changes that is powering the growth which I can't quite identify right now!! I left its top growth uncut, which 6 weeks ago was almost bleached white from iron deficiency...After the water changes the entire plant and side shoots started growing, the side shoots not so deficient, and the stalk got taller...The top never recovered but the leaves grew larger and went pink(they're at the surface)...and still not falling apart which normally happens with iron deficiency...though I did notice the shrimp bunching at some of the not so good leaves recently...Anyways, there's something in my tap water that hydrophila loves...or just the conditions lots of water changes provide....Anyway...I like keeping hydrophila just for that...its easy to keep and does never die...but its so sensitive in terms of nutrients...

Here's the worst picture you could ever show but my point is about doing something and observing the results...which is what excites me in this hobby...Experiments don't equal good results or aesthetic/pleasing tank...The plant is growing and not stunted although still iron deficient...Perhaps there's enough of usable iron in my tap water which the regular water changes provide....I haven'd dosed iron in a long time in this tank...The crypts are not iron hungry one bit...


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## Andy Thurston (3 Feb 2017)

I really really miss my clowns I wish I had the space and water for a good group but until I do I will have to look at your wonderful specimens. One day I will have a tank with 20-40 decent clowns


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## sciencefiction (3 Feb 2017)

Hey Andy...I totally understand. They are my most favourite fish of all I've ever kept or seen, and the longer I keep them the more I love them...which is unusual for me and I guess a lot of other fish keepers.


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## Andy Thurston (3 Feb 2017)

Hi SF I think that it is because they are a peaceful fish with loads of personality, other fish with personality tend to be quite aggressive and that can be a big problem with most fish keepers, myself included. keep up the good work.
if I ever manage to get to the other side of the Irish sea please let me come and see them


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## sciencefiction (3 Feb 2017)

Thanks Andy. No problem  You're very welcome.

Yes, they are extremely peaceful giants with lots of personality particular to each fish and positive reinforcement works on them just like on dogs and cats  They are worth the years of hard effort and make me smile every morning before I go to work


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## sciencefiction (5 Feb 2017)

I couldn't sleep so I grabbed a cup of coffee and went to "wake up" the fish. They are used to it as every morning I turn on the room light and in about 5-10min all clowns are out begging for food.

Here is a blurry video attempt below. My floating plants are on the brink of death , very very nitrogen deficient..I haven't dosed in weeks but they still seem to grow and multiply as I throw a bunch each weak.



And the below was from yesterday after I put a cucumber in the tank. It features Mr. Grey who often keeps company to my baby loach during bright lights hours.  They've developed some sort of a relationship. Mr. Grey is always grey when the lights are on, from the day I bought him/her 5-ish years ago. The others don't grey out as much even when they do and if all are out, its quite easy to notice the one grey/spooked acting loach . He's the only one with a name 



Picture of the cucumber feast. I found it almost eaten this morning and the pleco asleep next to it 


 

Clear waters 


 

And some fish unrelated pictures below. My sister sent me these. I am originally from a small town in the mountains. These are the mountains taken with my sister's phone when they were out there a few days ago


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## sciencefiction (12 Feb 2017)

A couple of clown loach pics


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## sciencefiction (18 Feb 2017)

Some unpleasant news.....The other day I found a rasbora dried up on the floor. I have no idea when it jumped but it must have been a few days, the fish was very dry. I was so absorbed by the clown loaches I hadn't counted the harlequins in a good while. I do have a tank cover because fish have jumped out from this small tank before but because of the external filter, it doesn't fully close and there are big gaps all around. I was thinking of keeping the rasboras in this tank for good but after that I changed my mind. They're only 6 of them now but they'll do better in the bigger tank.

I've been more concerned about the pale loach. He is still not an orange colour and yesterday I noticed he's visibly smaller now than the second loach, obviously not growing as he should.  The colour difference is also still very visible with the healthy loach being dark orange now and the pale being yellow. Both have dark black stripes though so I am not talking greying out here. I did take pictures and video but my front glass is still covered in algae so its hard to really see.

Besides that, both loaches are active and lively and are out all the time. They are also not hiding during water changes either but get excited and start searching for food as I feed them at this time and they've figured it out. In fact the rasboras start "imitating" a feeding behaviour the moment I turn off the filters and shoot to the surface thinking there's food. I feed the rasboras flakes so I guess that's why.

The pale loach has improved a bit colour wise since the video a few posts back but he's still yellow, just a more solid and not so "whitish" sort of yellow. On Wednesday a couple of days ago I decided to treat with praziquantel(fluke solve). This morning it dawned at me I never removed the carbon pads that I put after the kanamycin sulfate a few weeks ago but I am hoping its not active anymore....or so people say about carbon because I was never a user of it....

I am still doing a water change every second day as I see it as being a major contributor to actually keep get this loach to where he is now and keep it alive, and hopefully get him to a normal health one day. Shape wise he is not rounded but he's not skinny either. I don't see either a sunken stomach or it being pinched around the head, not yet..He's just visibly smaller and not growing. The other loach is wider in girth also besides now being a bit longer too and they were both the same small skinny size. .I just won't be certain of anything until at least the colour improves to orange.  But he's been acting pretty normally otherwise.

Poor thing definitely wants to live because he was in that poor pale condition in the fish shop for weeks too before I bought him. And it was the reason why I didn't buy him when I saw him the first time but since he stayed alive till the  next time I visited....I now have trouble on my hands  The praziquantel is just very safe to try on loaches, having tons of shrimp too in the tank, and loaches are known to carry trematodes from the wild so the cycle needs breaking.  It may not help but its worth a try at this stage. Fingers crossed for a lively and seemingly sick loach to pull through.


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## sciencefiction (26 Feb 2017)

Today I moved the two small loaches to the bigger tank. They were in quarantine for over 2 months now. 
It took me less time to catch them than I expected. The healthier one kept swimming at the front of the tank and then gave up and stood on one spot so I scooped him. The sickly loach was a bit smarter but after some chasing he decided to hide in the ceramic cave so I took him out with it  All done and dusted in 10min or so.

I turned off the kessil light in the big tank and left only the flood light. I wanted to lure all the loaches out and they all came out almost instantly upon reducing the light. The small loaches acted spooked by the bigger ones for an hour or so and then they figured all is ok....although they're still a bit weary of them... Now they are very interested at exploring the tank.. They're going around sniffing it like dogs 

I am still concerned about the pale, skinnier loach who isn't growing much but I think he'll fair better in the larger tank, better water quality too. I'll give him some time up to a couple of months to improve after the praziquantel treatment, if not I'll treat the lot with kusuri wormer plus. There's no snails and I can't see any shrimp in there to be worried about killing..But, besides looking rough, the sickly loach is very active all the time and acts normal. He's not as pale anymore although he's still yellow and all my other loaches are orange.  

I think there's a slight improvement from last time I posted a video but he's definitely skinnier than his buddy of same age, and smaller now, but doesn't seem to be getting any skinnier. Whatever he's got, also doesn't seem to be contagious.  So, in the big tank he is...He was also getting bullied by his clown loach companion at feeding time so we'll see. The kuhli loaches in there seem to be doing just fine, so if they're feeding well, the small loach will too...lots of nooks and crannies to find food where the larger ones can't go...Plus they may get into the habit of eating with the denison barbs and SAEs like my older baby loach does..The latter has grown quite a bit now that I can compare with the younger loaches...


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## three-fingers (26 Feb 2017)

Happily surprised to hear they were easy enough to move .  I still have 3 x khulie locahes to remove from a 5x2x2 soon...not looking forward to that...

Don't know if this has been asked before, but what does the skinny loach's poo look like? Weird question, but does it's anus look normal compared to the others?  Hopefully he just fattens up with a good feeding regime .


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## sciencefiction (26 Feb 2017)

three-fingers said:


> Don't know if this has been asked before, but what does the skinny loach's poo look like? Weird question, but does it's anus look normal compared to the others? Hopefully he just fattens up with a good feeding regime



The poop is invisible, same as the other loaches, you can never see when it poops. Its "backside" is completely normal.But he's smaller than the other loach  I bought together with him, but when you look from above he's definately thinner. I have a bad picture of it I took recently but it sorts of gives the idea....


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## sciencefiction (4 Mar 2017)

Skinny loach and his buddy are doing well in the new tank. Skinny is active and out and about. You can't tell by the behaviour that he is sick. His colour is definitely not white as before, almost looks normal but not that striking dark orange the other two small ones are now. I've had him for over 11 weeks now and I am telling myself he would not have survived if he's not on a recovery road...whatever his alignment is....

 All of them just fussed over a portion of bloodworms and they look good. I've noticed even some of my older loaches have put on some good growth and loach number 3 and 4 size wise are large looking when swimming on their own but once the two big loaches join in, every other fish looks rather small..

In comparison, skinny loach looks like a tadpole from above and he can only challenge a couple of the SAEs for size, who still remain rather small. The Denison barbs have outgrown the SAEs. They seem to be faster growing and even the runt  is now indistinguishable from the rest.

Tomorrow, if not lazy, I'll try catching the remaining 6 rasboras because I don't want any more jumpers out of that 54l tank they're in now. Although they look rather content with themselves these days. It will be interesting to see their reaction to the bigger space...All fish come out of their shells when given the space...

And then I'll have a version of an Asian tank...besides probably the pleco who's a South American fish.


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## sciencefiction (5 Mar 2017)

I moved the harlequin rasboras today...It was really tough catching them...It took me over an hour to get the last one of them. Those buggers never swam into the plants before but when they saw the net, they went straight down and hid in the thick vegetation, and would not come out...

They were quite funny in the big tank..They couldn't find each other at first, ha, ha,swimming in couples and singles. One of them sort of joined the barbs and then oops, got spooked when it realised they don't look like its buddies  Then after about 2 hours I finally saw them swimming together and guess what they were doing.... They were swimming from outlet to outlet which happen to be on the opposite sides, and having real fun in the flow in and out, in and out...  You'd think they are stressed but to me it looked deliberate because there are plenty other places around the tank they could go to,..where there's no such flow...They look really happy to me right now, enjoying the extra space a lot...

I am going to miss the fuss in my small tank now which happens to be in the sitting room. I started scraping the glass algae little by little. The shrimp really like to feast on it.


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## sciencefiction (12 Mar 2017)

I think the small sickly loach is on the road to recovery. I dosed with flubendazole last week and today added the second and last dose.
The loach is now officially yellow and not white  but he needs to put on some weight and grow a bit now...He's eating and lively still, and the 3 of them small ones are now inseparable during the day, browsing together, which was the whole point of this ordeal  They are exploring the shadows of the pre-filter sponge below 







It is a big colour improvement from his old "white"self a few weeks back






Now that all fish are out from the small tank, I got to scrape a bit of the algae of the glass in the course of last week...It was seriously thick  .I did a water change 5 hours before I took the picture below but the plants are still saturated with bubbles. which looks beautiful...










I am missing having some fish in there...but even the rasboras are now delighted being in the pond..They are seriously fast fish and fly like rockets in the bigger space now.  They seem to be getting on well with the barbs and SAEs. When I scared them with the siphon today, the lot was swimming together around the tank in a big bunch..


And the SAEs below.... having some sort of meeting on the hollow stone  The fifth one must have been running late....Two of the SAE are significantly smaller than the other three, not sure why, because the denison barbs are all almost identical size wise...but the bullying at feeding time between the SAEs never stops  They are ridiculous and only do it amongst themselves...


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## sciencefiction (31 Mar 2017)

Hey Everyone, just a quick update on my little pond.

I killed almost all the floating plants now......Its just too early to have them, not enough bioload to feed them. It makes no sense to me to regularly dose KNO3 just so I can keep a bunch of floaters. I did save a bit in a container which I dose with ferts and they're doing great there..The anubias and crypts are also not doing great but the large emersed plants on another hand are doing just fine, out-competing everything else...

Otherwise, the fish are doing great. Everyone is in the pond now, including the harlequin rasboras which are really loving it. I saw a couple of them sort of "dancing" together the other day. I am not sure if they were a male and female or two males, can't see their side markings from above..They were a bit afraid of the bigger fish at the start but now have loosened the schooling and I can see them in singles and doubles amongst the barbs and SAEs all the time. I think the poor things get lost and can't find each other 

My pale clown loach has fully recovered its colour and its gaining back weight. The 3 small ones are now inseparable and very bold. They're out all the time. They rush to the surface to the side of the tank where I feed the moment they see my head staring at them 

I also keep forgetting to take a kuhli loach video...I see them all the time now coming out looking for food. No one bothers them at all. I am glad I never fed my clown loaches earthworms 

Here is a quick video I took a video last weekend.


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## mort (31 Mar 2017)

That's a really interesting perspective from above. Makes it look like you have twice the fish with the shadows Also good to see natural behaviours.


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## sciencefiction (1 Apr 2017)

Thanks mort.ha, ha...the shadows.. Well, not an excuse but you know....there are generally plenty of fish in the video ...I think roughly 18 in the video with the loaches and a 4 of the rasboras swim by . When I stand there they all gather nearside waiting to be fed.  They'd do that for a while and If I sit there long enough, they'd eventually ignore me and go on about their business around the tank...

One day I noticed they also react positively to the front door being opened. I normally feed the fish straight after I walk in home from work. I assumed that they start begging for food when they see me near the tank but not just so....That day I was sitting at home observing them for ages, when my partner came home...I heard the front door being opened quite loudly,  and so did the fish  All of them suddenly stopped doing what they were doing, and  gathered the near side of the tank,  waiting to be fed by whoever walked in the front door  So they have associated my consistency at feeding them when I come home, the sound of the front door being opened, with being fed....I have a similar routine in the morning too because before I go to work, straight after I get up, I walk my dog and upon returning I feed the fish and then the dog..Somehow the noise of that door being opened and closed has become the dinner bell  The room with the tank is straight across the front door...


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## sciencefiction (14 Apr 2017)




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## sciencefiction (21 Apr 2017)




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## alto (22 Apr 2017)

No images that I can see  in latest post - rest are all there


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## sciencefiction (22 Apr 2017)

Do you see any images in the last post? I've posted 5 and I can still see them. I am not sure how to fix it.


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## zozo (22 Apr 2017)

Hi Science  The Url you copied into the tag is rather very long and not ending on .png (which your are) or any other affiliated image extension such as .jpg. I guess that's the reason, it aint a share link from your google account and only shows on your private PC because you have all data stored to see it.

Might look at your google account if the provide a public share Url.. One much shorter and ending on .PNG or .JPG

See bellow attached image..
Locatie = Location, that's the Url
Type = PNG
Grootte = Size, which is 0kb (0 bytes) so it contains zero data

The last image you posted that shows is. See the url and on what it ends? And where you uploaded it..
http://i1347.photobucket.com/albums/p706/Snezz/20170311_123158_zpsu6azpkd0.jpg


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## sciencefiction (22 Apr 2017)

I don't know why they are not displaying. Do you know any decent image hosting website?  Generally, there's nothing new to see  
Fish are very healthy and colourful. The sickly loach is also fully amended and going from strength to strength. 

I can't say the same for the underwater plants. They're struggling, partially because they're outcompeted, and partially because the clown loaches play the "click" and "clip" game at them.  I also killed all the floaters. They just didn't do well from severe nitrogen deficiency.  The emersed plants though are doing great though and I think are scavenging all the naturally produced ferts leaving nothing to the rest of the plants.  The Palm has been flowering for months now.  

I'll try posting the pictures again. Here's a couple of recent videos.


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## sciencefiction (22 Apr 2017)

zozo said:


> Hi Science  The Url you copied into the tag is rather very long and not ending on .png (which your are) or any other affiliated image extension such as .jpg. I guess that's the reason, it aint a share link from your google account and only shows on your private PC because you have all data stored to see it.
> 
> Might look at your google account if the provide a public share Url.. One much shorter and ending on .PNG or .JPG
> 
> ...


 
Yep, you got it. I'll try posting from the photobucket acc but it is so sluggish I run out of patience using it anymore


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## zozo (22 Apr 2017)

You can upload them directly to the ukaps server too via the Upload file button bellow the message pane when you are writing your post.
This way they also show as long as UKAPS wants it.. Photobucket and other free web hosts are temporary and might get deleted after several months.


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## sciencefiction (22 Apr 2017)

Thanks Zozo. I think that worked


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## zozo (22 Apr 2017)

I'm happy to.. That looks awsome!  What is that plant with the little yellow flower?


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## sciencefiction (22 Apr 2017)

It is the large palm plant I've had for years. I think the common name is parlour palm.


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## zozo (22 Apr 2017)

Cool! I have it but never got it to flower..


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## sciencefiction (22 Apr 2017)

It will eventually once it matures. How long have you had it for? I think mine started on the 2nd year or so and hasn't really stopped since. its now about 4.5 years since I bought it.


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## sciencefiction (19 May 2017)

Some good and some bad news.

Bad news first. A couple of weeks ago one of my clown loaches was found dried up on the floor. I was devastated. Since then I've put a net over the pond. Now at least I am able to fill it up a bit higher but I don't see any reason filling it to the very top..The tank is quite deep, around 80cm to the very top..

The good news is that my poor dead clown loach was replaced with 3 healthy 5 inch loaches I found deserted in the fish shop. They were clearly a bonded trio as they kept swimming together for a while in my tank too but now they're part of the school and my other clowns seem pretty pleased with the addition of like sized buddies.   My baby loaches are growing too and are quite healthy looking. The one that was sick at purchase several months back has gained weight and a bit of length too. The babies are extremely active and friendly. They literally stand on my hand if I hold the pellets. 

I also added some of my corys to the tank. They're delighted to be in there too. At first they were flying like rockets on the round sides, just like the reaction of every other fish I had added. I am not sure why they get so excited swimming in circles  

My little quarantine tank is now a cold water tank and is home to some hillstream loaches. They're adorable and they're doing very well as there's is plenty of algae on the tank glass, plus I've got quite the flow in there.  They also seem to like doing some good digging in the substrate. Their behaviour is like a mixture of plecos, loaches, corydoras and mini stingrays. They are quite funny. They boss each other around a lot too


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## alto (20 May 2017)

like
Like
LIKE
lIke
LiKe
LikE

Sorry got a bit carried away 

(for some reason the *Like *button isn't working )

Sorry for your clown loss - poor guy


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## zozo (20 May 2017)

That's always bad... I know the feeling, since i keep my goldfish in a simular setup, lost 2 like that during the years.. One female comet tail, was very lucky, it jumped out years ago and i was spraying the grass with a sprinkler.. She ended up in a small puddle of water and was constantly sprinkled, it prevented her from drying out.. Don't know for how long she was in this puddle when i found her, i sprayed for 2 hours or so, did put her back and she still lives today and made offspring. 



sciencefiction said:


> How long have you had it for? I think mine started on the 2nd year or so and hasn't really stopped since.


Sorry for the late reply.. I do not always get notifications when some is added to topics. 

But this one is about 15 years now and almost 2 metres large. Never flowered, even tho it stands south/east window..



 Had a few smaller ones, but never a flower..


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## sciencefiction (4 Jun 2017)

Hey.

I came back from a two week holiday. One hillstream loaches in the small tank has perished, maybe more, but haven't been able to count yet. I found shrimp munchning on one carcass, no more visual clues.

On a positive note everyone in the pond is accounted for and looking good and grown up. A couple of the new loaches had their noses rubbed white and one had a white scratch mark near the dorsal fin when I bought him. That seems to have gone now. My partner was in charge of the feeding but it still seems they were hungry as lots of my anubias leaves are literally eaten up ...The corys are also looking somehow bigger to me now, although they are adults. I am changing the water now and I will give them a good bunch of worms for dinner. 

@zozo 
My palm looks slightly different species, or at least yours doesn't grow as bushy as mine but rather tall instead. Mine is as tall now but at first it just grows sideways/bushy, then in a few years got tall as well. My guess is you have a different type.


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## zozo (4 Jun 2017)

I know there are several sp. of this palm, but they all should or could cary flowers and likely fruits.. I forgot wich the big one is, to long ago, also gat a smaller Mexican dwarf version, same story, never got it to flower.. 

Hope you had a nice holiday..


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## dw1305 (5 Jun 2017)

Hi all, 





zozo said:


> But this one is about 15 years now and almost 2 metres large


I think your palm is a _<"Howea">, _and_ @sciencefiction's _a _<"Chamaedorea">.
_
cheers Darrel


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## zozo (5 Jun 2017)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, I think your palm is a _<"Howea">, _and_ @sciencefiction's _a _<"Chamaedorea">.
> _
> cheers Darrel



You hit the nail on the head Darrel..  I indeed believe and faintly remember now i bought it as Kentia palm (H. forsteriana), around 15 years ago, never moved or repotted since, it stands on hydro cultere clay pebbles.. Also got that little Mexican Chamaedorea in a small swamp pot.


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## sciencefiction (24 Jun 2017)

I keep forgetting to tell you guys that I have someone in the tank now that eats the hell out of the anubias. All of the anubias is destroyed with chunks missing out of it....I am not sure if its the barbs or the SAEs but its one of them because the loaches normally would just make a hole here and there, do smaller damage but this time entire anubias plantlets are destroyed..

The outside plants on the contrary are growing a lot now that the sunshine through the window is in. The palm has taken off big time and is aiming high these days. It's throwing new leaves all the time. It has even smothered one of the peace lilies which I mean to move away from it so it gets enough sunshine too. Despite the heavy enough fish feeding, the plants are still nitrogen deficient  and I get old yellowing leaves every so often...which is a pity but at the same time the fish are being healthy so I am not willing to change things...Fingers crossed but since I set up this tank every fish in it has looked like bursting with health and vigour. 

The baby loaches that are raised in this tank are the friendliest ever loaches and they're now as bold as to nip my fingers even during a water change. 

I also noticed the harlequin rasboras have become more confident and often swim amongst the larger barbs and SAEs. They must have figured there's no threat in the tank for them now.  They're so cute. Generally, all the mid water swimming fish plus the three baby loaches tend to create one big school of fish and stick around together a lot...very odd but nice to see. They probably feed on each other's confidence 

I also need to try taking a video of my larger loaches for you guys.  Every time I see the two very big ones I have, I feel they've gotten even bigger. They're quite the sight now, being so large and chunky, and its amazing that I have been a witness of some of my loaches growing so big. One of them was a little baby when I got it 5 years ago. The other big one as you know I purchased as a 5 incher 4 years ago but my five year old has almost reached it in size. 

I spent a lot around my holidays recently so I won't be getting my underwater camera right away but I am going to as soon as I can. I even saw an underwater webcam for aquariums which would be interesting too.....watching my fish while at work  

As for the hillstream loaches, it seems just the one died. The rest are doing well from what I can see. The temperatures here are up and so is their water but hopefully short term it won't bother them. They are quite the active and entertaining fish to have. I should have gotten some years ago....


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## sciencefiction (24 Jun 2017)

zozo said:


> I know there are several sp. of this palm, but they all should or could cary flowers and likely fruits.. I forgot wich the big one is, to long ago, also gat a smaller Mexican dwarf version, same story, never got it to flower..
> 
> Hope you had a nice holiday..



Hey Marcel...Darrel got it right again  and my palm is _Chamaedorea elegans. _If  you can't find the species over there and want to try it i can send you a plant. I have another one on the window sill which remained much smaller although its from the exact same plant I divided in two a few years back.  They adapt fast to water conditions and its a great fish tank plant  It also doesn't grow that fast so can be kept in smaller tanks for quite a few years. But it seems to do better with a big pot for its roots. I previously had mine potted in quite the small pot and I think it restricted its overall size, though it did well and flowered nevertheless. Its root system is very hard. It feels like tiny web of thin branches, brown in appearance when mature and not very nice to be in the water  So I rather the roots stay in the pot  I used to be afraid some fish would get stuck in it


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## sciencefiction (18 Aug 2017)

Hey Everyone....

 I've been fish disinterested for a while this summer, unusual for me to be honest but life has taken over..

I haven't neglected my favourite pets though. They've been water changed and fed regularly....though not all of it was done by me 

I got an eheim fish feeder. That thing is brilliant. Works like a charm, especially suitable for the small granulated food I normally feed(NLS pellets)
For the last two weeks I barely looked at the pond. I actually bought it because I am going away for two weeks in September and didn't want any big fish to eat small fish because of starvation for that period...I always fear the big clowns will eat the rasboras or kuhli loaches   Fears and problems sorted 

Despite of my lack of attention for the last maybe few months in general, fish are going strong and nothing changes to the worse(knock on my wooden head 
Everyone is there looking good. This pond idea is proving to be the best thing I did so far though I wish I had space for a bigger one....one day maybe......
My palm is growing huge, smothering one of the piece lilies to death but the other peace lily Ion the other side of it is challenging for space big time and I won't be surprised if it flowers soon. Its leaves have gone huge.......There's definitely something about plants competing with each other even if they are from the same species. The suffering peace lily is the one that gets the least window light...you figure 

Besides the above I've got a few interesting observations in regards to my other summer experiment....
I probably mentioned it before but 3 months back I bought some hillstream loaches for my small tank. I decided to set up another plastic tank for them in the mean time to possibly move them over as they grow.(...they have not grown one bit yet though...not sure if the species I thought I bought is what I got)...

In my attempt to make the best conditions for the few plants I put in there, to get some green algae, and for lack of fish in the tank, I overdosed with powdered nutrients....This caused an almost immediate cyanobacteria outbreak that lasted for maybe 2.5 months up until a week ago. It was so bad everything was covered in dark green/bluish tick film, all sides, bottom...everything.  I only had a few snails in the tank...Red ramshorn snails....So I left it be.....Guess what?....These snails absolutely love cyano. They grew to the size of my biggest toe.. I'll take a picture I promise....I had never seen such big rumshorns before and I've kept them for years... .I remember someone here asking how to multiply ramshorns and I said that they don't multiply that fast....and in fact for the first time in many years I've seen them grow that big in a matter of weeks!  And I've got lots of them now in this tank....Sadly, the cyano is gone.....I sort of wanted the phase to last longer   Maybe I should nutrient oversode that tank again to make those beautiful snails happy  And then feed them to my clown loaches?


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## alto (19 Aug 2017)

sciencefiction said:


> n my attempt to make the best conditions for the few plants I put in there, to get some green algae, and for lack of fish in the tank, I overdosed with powdered nutrients....This caused an almost immediate cyanobacteria outbreak that lasted for maybe 2.5 months up until a week a


You Heretic you  
Have you not read on here enough that 
*excess nutrients does NOT cause algae!!!!!!*
Blasphemer 

  

If only your ramshorns had mutated into all the colours  

I've definitely missed your photo & video updates 
- but now I can look forward to vacation & fish pix st September's close


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## sciencefiction (20 Aug 2017)

Ha, ha Alto  Yep, overdosing does trigger cyano and I did not dose phosphates, just all micros, extra iron and potassium nitrate ....Thinking do dose that tank again to keep the snails well fed  I never knew ramshorns like cyano that much 

I spent some time observing my fish yesterday. They acted really hungry when they saw me  so I waited to see if that fish feeder is still working.....and it is. It dumped quite the amount of food but it gets floating on the surface so my bottom feeders don't seem to be getting at it immediately...Well, they're going to have to learn fetch it.....at least while I am away


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## sciencefiction (6 Oct 2017)

Hi All,

I've been too lazy to post but I just wanted to share something really weird happening to one of my denison barbs.

When I came back from holiday 3 weeks ago I noticed some sort of a colour problem with one of the denison barbs. I didn't pay much attention as I didn't know what it was and the fish didn't look sick besides that but there was something happening to its colour.

Roll 3 weeks forward, I am doing a water change and see that weird looking clown loach. Upon further look I see it is the "patchy" denison barb.

It has gone through some colour metamorphosis and it now looks like a clown loach 

See for yourself below...I've never seen such a thing...The barb looks like a clown loach wannabe right now  Any idea what is happening?

There it is right now:


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## mort (6 Oct 2017)

I'm not sure why it happens but I've seen it before with my beckfordi pencilfish. It looked exactly the same and stayed like that for a a few weeks before returning to normal. At first I thought it was mating colours but I'm pretty sure it's not. Maybe it's a hierarchal thing with the most dominant individual showing off.


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## sciencefiction (7 Oct 2017)

I fed them bloodworms this morning and observed for a bit. The denison barb above was right amongst the clown loaches competing for food where the rest of the barbs stay away when all the loaches are out for food. It could be something to do with dominance and now that it has this colour it feels more confident in the tank.  Also the fish does not act sick at all. It looks quite healthy otherwise. I'll see what happens long term because sometimes one could never know. The type of colour change is really odd though, looking like a clown loach, lol 

Yesterday I saw another "older" clown loach in the shop. Its only 4 inch max though and looks a bit stunted by what I can see. Someone brought him in a week ago apparently. It looks healthy otherwise, good colours and very active, was doing stunts with two siamese algae eaters around the glass. . I am thinking to get him to round up to 13 clown loaches  Any objections? 

My two biggest loaches look quite big now and my 5 year old loach has caught up to almost the size of the largest loach, I can barely tell them apart.  They'd make a dinner for two for sure at the moment They dwarf all other fish right now....and they bite 
The 3 larger loaches I bought in May are doing good also.  Generally, ...(knock wood)...I have not lost a single fish in the tank, at least that I have noticed.   Mr small pleco is looking good too, so are the corys and I can still see khuli loaches although generally they're the only ones I can't count and I can't be certain about

Someone, however, has totally eaten all the anubias. They are in shreds and I'll just remove them. Whoever's doing this is not eating the crypts.... 

My above water plants have exploded over the summer. The palm is flowering again though the peace lilies have not yet.....


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## mort (7 Oct 2017)

I've rescued a couple of clown loaches over the years and they really do think the more the merrier. When a friend broke his tank down I inherited a 6" one that sat roughly in the middle of the sizing for my group, I saw some sparring but they became inseparable in a couple of days. So if it's healthy and qt'd I'd say go for it. The only reason I won't add anymore is that mine are all well over 20 now apart from the two smallest ones which are about 15 (there's nothing in there less than 15 years old) and my parents bought them when I was little. I've wanted to turn the tank into something else many times and currently think a planted discus tank would be nicer but I don't trust anyone to look after them as I've had them so long.


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## sciencefiction (7 Oct 2017)

You do have to post some pictures of those 20 year old clowns  I'd love to see them...There's no way I'd replace mine for boring Discus fish 

Well, I got the clown loach and he's actually in the big tank. No quarantine. He's been in the shop for over week prior and prior to that in someone's house so I doubt it there'll be trouble plus they do way better if not stressed any further.. Large clowns do ok with moving and this one is nicely coloured and chunky enough.
He's not much bigger than the year old clown loach I bought last September....so not even 4 inches. He's exploring already and looks good and not stressed. He didn't spend much time travelling and the water in the shop and at home is identical, bar the pollution in the fish shop. I did drip acclimate him though.


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## mort (7 Oct 2017)

sciencefiction said:


> You do have to post some pictures of those 20 year old clowns  I'd love to see them...There's no way I'd replace mine for boring Discus fish



I'll try and remember to add some pics later. It's not that I'd replace them, I'd never get rid of them but after a couple of decades with the same stock you can't help but be interested in other species.


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## mort (13 Oct 2017)

I haven't forgotten about the pictures but my led finally gave up the ghost so waiting for a new one. The tanks also really tannin stained from the new wood at the moment that it makes getting them without the light impossible. On the other hand they don't seem bothered in the slightest.


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## sciencefiction (14 Oct 2017)

The new loach is doing well, out and about with the others, though still more skittish than the rest. But its obvious its liking the company in there. Its a very active loach and comes out often exploring.

The oddly colroued, clown "wannabe" denison barb seems to have released a lot of yellow pigment around the body but the irridescent green top/back seems to be coming back You maybe right it has something to do with dominance. Its very brightly coloured at the moment and the red nose and line on the body is very intense.. Combined with the yellow, the colouring is very eye-catching. She/he's swimming about healthily, so it doesn't seem to be health related at all.


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## sciencefiction (18 Nov 2017)

Hey. 

I just thought the other day its been a year and a couple of months since I first set up this tank. Time flies. 
Except for the loach that jumped out, everything has been going well with the fish and everyone is still there, active and happy looking.
My bigger now clown loach bunch is extremely bold, finger biting me at each meal.

I don't know if I mentioned or not that the BBA disappeared long long time ago. And I think that's because the tank is not overstocked.
However, I have some serious anubias eaters in there. The entire anubias plants have been shredded and destroyed. Interesting that they don't touch the crypts much at all......The clown loaches never did damage to this extent before and I suspect the dension barbs.
Overall, the underwater plants are doing bad enough. I have not been dosing any fertilisers at all. The emerged ones on another hand are doing really well have grown big. I think they're outcompeting the other plants. 

By the way the clown loach wannabe denison barb has turned back completely to its normal colour. I've no idea what it was up to  I am glad its ok.
The denison barbs have grown quite a bit  since last year but the SAEs are not as fast growing though both of them were the same size when I got them. A couple of the SAEs are visibly smaller than their counterparts as well. I am not sure if that's sex related or not. The SAEs are the friendliest fish I've ever had. They don't miss to go all over my hands at water changes, literally attached like glue. They're really curious and active fish and I enjoy watching them a lot.

My corydoras have also been doing great in there, despite the high competition for food amongst bottom dwellers. I don't have that many anymore. I lost a lot of them the year before and I still can't forgive myself but I couldn't do anything to save them at the time. Corys and overstocking don't do well...I hope whatever is left is long lived...The ones I have now, except for a few older corys, are about 5 year old only. 

 I see kuhli loaches coming out for food too all the time. Whether all of them are still there or not is difficult to say because they're in and out of the driftwood...But they're tough little fish. I've had them for quite a few years now as well and that's their third tank.

There's no fear for the pleco and the small rasboras are doing fine. I've always been tempted to get more rasboras to bump the school but I am not keen on going through the diseases they came riddled with the last time....I'll think about it...

The thread is really due some pictures/videos but its not so visible with the net on top...

All the best to everyone.


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## sciencefiction (18 Nov 2017)

Here is a bad attempt at a video below, lights are off. Its hard to tell the size of the fish too but keep an eye on the corydoras passing by at the bottom in comparison to the clown loaches....I'll try to get a brighter one.


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## sciencefiction (18 Nov 2017)

I also promised a good while back pictures of my ramshorn snails that grew on bluegreen algae.  Here's a couple I just fetched.


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## sciencefiction (20 Nov 2017)

And a pic of the tank and plants as it is now. The palm hasn't stopped flowering for months but the peace lily still hasn't flowered in this tank. I did start with smaller lily this time though so it needs to mature.


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## sciencefiction (24 Nov 2017)

A brighter view of the fish frenzy. The denison barbs have really nice colours. Its better viewed in HD.


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## sciencefiction (29 Dec 2017)

A quick video from today from the fish prison, he, he 

Clowns were out waiting for dinner


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## alto (5 Jan 2018)

What species are in the tank now?


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## sciencefiction (5 Jan 2018)

The same fish:clown loaches, denison barbs, SAEs, kuhli loaches, corydoras, bristlenose pleco and harlequin rasboras.

 The corydoras and kuhli loaches were previously kept in other tanks but they are not new. I've had them for several years.


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## alto (5 Jan 2018)

I was trying to trick you into revealing numbers & names 

Hillstreams?


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## sciencefiction (5 Jan 2018)

No, the hillstreams are in a cold water tank.

I think about 13 clown loaches, 6 kuhli loaches, 5 harlequin rasboras, 10-ish corydoras(never counted them), 9 denison barbs, 5 SAEs, 1 pleco  Although not completely compatible, the lot seem to get on very well together. Even the small harlequins are brave enough to line up for food.

And strangely enough, the majority of the fish tend to stay around the "feeding spot" front of the tank. When I look at the back(round tank  ), there's never much action there, mostly the harlequin rasboras, having litres and litres of water to themselves and looking really happy.

I would love to get some more harlequins as there is lots of room for them but they were very sickly when I bought them and I fear a repeat of the months of TLC they had to go through to get healthy.


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## alto (6 Jan 2018)

I feel you had an unusual experience with the Harlequins, they are usually pretty sturdy, ship in well & hold well in shop tanks though occasionally a "bad" batch may come in (as with any fish) 

They should be active & decently coloured in the shop tanks

If you get your Harlequns up to 18 or more, they exhibit some great shoaling behaviours (& fun to see them spawn)


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## sciencefiction (6 Jan 2018)

The harlequins came with columnaris/mouth rot and one of the 2 clown loaches I bought at the same time with them had worms as well. I posted it here at some stage. I lost 3 harlequins and when all was well, I lost a 4th to jumping. . So from 9 was left with 5 but the 2 loaches made it through. All have been healthy for many months since all that was sorted. I bought them Christmas 2016. I should have noticed the columnaris straight away but the harlequins were so tiny, I actually only saw it when one was dying a few days later. Only then I started paying greater attention saw it was actually columnaris. I was lucky I had kanamycin sulfate on hand to save what I saved.  This Christmas I didn't dare buy myself fish 

I have one plastic tub that's been running with just shrimp and snails and left over plants so I've got room to quarantine but haven't had the urges yet  If I do, I may buy myself 15-ish harlequins next time....I don't intend to be adding any other species to the tank as the combo right now seem pretty happy together.

Someone ate all my anubias! It's shredded to bits and I had kept anubias with clown loaches for a long time without seeing any of this. I suspect either the denison barbs or SAEs...I haven't caught anyone in the act but someone has been pulling chunks out, leaving only the stalks of every anubias plant.  At the moment none is left....Funnily, despite the lack of success with plants under water....no black brush algae for a long time....I have some small version of crypts planted around the roots of the emersed plants and the fish haven't been able to get at them. But the emersed plants have grown humongous....The palm will soon pass height of the window behind it.... Its never been that big but the natural light seems to do the trick.


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## sciencefiction (6 Jan 2018)

I actually just counted 6 harlequin rasboras. I must have remembered wrong in the first place.


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## alto (7 Jan 2018)

Christmas fish can be less consistent - often shipments will get delayed (no cargo room left or someone else paid more) so boxes may wait on the next plane or travel back & forth between transhipper & airport a few times (each time spending hours at the airport in order to be ready for plane access)

You did well to salvage as many Harlequins as you did


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## Andy Thurston (12 Jan 2018)

Hi Sifi  happy new year. Pond doesn't look too bad. Clowns pretty robust when settled shame about the losses though. Clowns will make u shaped hole like the conductor clips a ticket but won't just leave a stem


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## sciencefiction (12 Jan 2018)

Thanks Andy. The pond could have looked better if I made an effort  I gave up on the plants since I noticed someone's eating them down to shreds  Even the floaters didn't make it.. But the fish are doing quite ok. That's enough for me. I've never been a planted tank enthusiasts I guess...


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## sciencefiction (14 Jan 2018)

I did quite the cleaning today around the tank. The filters were severely overdue their cleaning time. I am ashamed to say how long.... I cleaned two of them....messy Sunday... The third one will be next week or the week after just in case....

I also saved one of the peace lily from under the parlour palm. It was being smothered. It has grown so little in comparison to the other peace lily, one can't see it at all unless you know its there. The parlour palm also completely smothered the fern...

 I also put another small parlour palm in a hanging basket. I got it from the one on the window sill which right now isn't doing great at all....There's literally no light this winter, crappy weather, storm after storm. Half the leaves of the palm have dried out. I hadn't even noticed till today. The clay pebbles I placed in the basket around the roots aren't water logged so first time I placed basket in the tank, everything went out making a mess..just after I did the damn water change  .I had to fish out the pebbles and try again  I sort of managed to position it over the hanging inlet so the basket is not completely under the water. I had forgotten I had the same issue last year.

 I just need to think how and where to move one of the lights so all plants get it.


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## sciencefiction (20 Jan 2018)

Today I came across something very interesting in relation to denison barbs, and in particular the colour change one of them experienced earlier in this thread. What I read is that in one recorded rare breeding from 2005, prior to the mating they underwent change of colour, the dorsal surface getting blue. My barb didn't get blue at all but turned out striped, clown loach looking colour, which is amazing on its own, as in the pictures I showed previously. 

However, after some googling, there are quite a few occasions where barbs turned odd colour. The people are describing loss of scales, sick looking fish that act healthy, etc... but that's exactly how my denison barb looked like at some stage, very patchy....until it decided it is a clown loach and got that striking black and yellow stripes  Some old threads on the issue even have pictures of denison barbs at the beginning of what mine looked like. The consensus of the thread is that they were picked on or sick but there was no follow up from the original poster. These were old threads and in my scenario I know my barb was neither sick or picked on/attacked by other fish as he/she is still alive and in full denison barb colours right now. It is just something I never came across online...and it interesting to mention.


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## sciencefiction (23 Jan 2018)

I tried to capture the beautiful colours of the barbs but its proving very difficult... I love the contrast with the green backs, red line and yellow tails..I may sound too proud  but I've never seen other denison barbs online with such colours, especially not with such iridescent green backs.. That's the best shot I got from them, lol.


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## Edvet (23 Jan 2018)

sciencefiction said:


> such iridescent green backs


( soft apologizing voice: could be the viewing angle)


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## sciencefiction (23 Jan 2018)

Edvet said:


> ( soft apologizing voice: could be the viewing angle)



 They're extremely green I swear  I actually pictured them mostly "horizontally" to catch the colour as from the top directly you can't capture it as well, holding my phone at an angle waiting for a barb to come on view. But in real life they're very green and shiny. 

If you can manage to watch the below older video in high definition it is somewhat obvious, greener than any other denison barbs you'll see online


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## sciencefiction (23 Jan 2018)

By the way, the green must be from them shredding all my plants to bits


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## Edvet (24 Jan 2018)

Lol


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## zozo (24 Jan 2018)

sciencefiction said:


> By the way, the green must be from them shredding all my plants to bits



Have you ever taken one out and put in a tank? Than you see the lateral color as shown on pictures taken in an aquarium. Not saying yours aren't greener than normaly dislayed, i' take your word for it.. But a lot of fish have this darker dorsal camouflage if viewed from above. An example is our common minnow, if viewed in an aqaurium or in your hands if caught they are completely shiny silver colored maybe with a slight dorsal golden tone. But viewed through the surface from above they are extremely dark green/brown and even difficult to detirmine what specific kind of minnow you're actualy looking at.


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## sciencefiction (24 Jan 2018)

So what colour do you lads suggest the barbs are/should be viewed from the side?

The SAEs are completely grey and look exactly as they do from any point of view, so are the clown loaches , the harlequin rasboras, the pleco , etc...


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## sciencefiction (24 Jan 2018)

Look at the SAEs amongst them....They don't look any darker, more colourful, brown, etc..

If you watch closely, you'll see that the colouration on the back near the tail of the barbs isn't green, no matter the angle.


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## sciencefiction (24 Jan 2018)

zozo said:


> Have you ever taken one out and put in a tank? Than you see the lateral color as shown on pictures taken in an aquarium. Not saying yours aren't greener than normaly dislayed, i' take your word for it.. But a lot of fish have this darker dorsal camouflage if viewed from above. An example is our common minnow, if viewed in an aqaurium or in your hands if caught they are completely shiny silver colored maybe with a slight dorsal golden tone. But viewed through the surface from above they are extremely dark green/brown and even difficult to detirmine what specific kind of minnow you're actualy looking at.



You mean these common minnows below. I posted two videos from youtube below.The only difference I see in the colour is due to the pond video "top view" not having any light in. The fish look exactly the same colour. If I take a video in my pond with limited light, you'll barely recognise the clown loaches, never mind any other fish.

Viewed from above:


Viewed from the side:


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## zozo (24 Jan 2018)

sciencefiction said:


> You mean these common minnows below.



I meant Minnows in general, i actualy didn't know that common minnow was a common name in English for a particular minnow spp. .
Like this Minnow spp. i used to cacth as a kid..



If you see them from above on a dark substrate then they look like little dark unidentifiable terpodo's swimming by. And you realy need to catch one to determine what it is.

But you see with these minnows from your post show a bit of the same, that the back looks significantly darker if viewed from above. And a lot of fish have this.

In my tank i have Trichopsis pumila, when viewed from the side they are extremelly colorfull, with the blue eyes and blue and red markings etc. But i noticed the day a bought them i did put them from the bag first into a white bucket. And viewed from above the look dull greenish grey even the eye doesn't show. If i would have taken a black bucket they would be realy hard to spot.

I guess it's a camoe feature for fish that (occasinaly) use the top water layers.


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## sciencefiction (24 Jan 2018)

zozo said:


> But i noticed the day a bought them i did put them from the bag first into a white bucket. And viewed from above the look dull greenish grey even the eye doesn't show.



You can't compare newly bought fish colours to fish that have established themselves and are given the chance to display full colour. The denison barbs in the shop are almost colourless, you can just about make some red here and there, and the yellow on the tails. This doesn't mean that's their final colour. Minnows of the "other" common type are really colourful fish when they establish themselves and the conditions are suitable. I am not sure why you're saying they're "silver"

And also, although my tank looks like a bucket  , the viewing angle is quite wide. I don't claim mine are darker from above. In fact the green isn't dark at all. Its bright green. You can clearly see how realistic is the colour of the rest of the fish, especially the SAEs, which are identical to what you'd normally see in anyone's tank....My tank is well illuminated as well. Its not like looking into a dark bucket...I got my partner to check out the fish, who barely ever looks at them, and the consensus is they look green any angle you view them from in reality. The barbs move all the time and I can clearly see them from the side all the time. The colour remains green.


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## sciencefiction (24 Jan 2018)

There's the same barbs one year ago, all grey on top when they were younger. It is hard to make out which is a denison barb and which a SAE, they're all very grey. The denison barbs just have slightly more colourful fins at that stage. I only had them for about 3 months or so. There's no green to be seen at that stage. See the 2nd video close up from 7th Jan 2017.


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## mort (24 Jan 2018)

I think it's just a maturity thing.


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## sciencefiction (24 Jan 2018)

Nice pictures mort, more like the realistic colour I see of mine.

However, the damn viewing angle in my pond. Mine sometimes look like clown loaches


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## dw1305 (25 Jan 2018)

Hi all, 





mort said:


> I think it's just a maturity thing.


That would be my guess as well, the fish are in really good condition and showing their adult coloration. 

cheers Darrel


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## mort (25 Jan 2018)

sciencefiction said:


> Nice pictures mort, more like the realistic colour I see of mine.
> 
> However, the damn viewing angle in my pond. Mine sometimes look like clown loaches



Those pics were just taken from Google.  Unfortunately I've never had the space to keep denisons at home only when I worked at a lfs. That was just juvenile solid silver ones but I've seen mature specimens exhibiting the green colour in a 4m or so river system.


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## Edvet (25 Jan 2018)

Weren't they in the Amano scape in Lisbon?


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## dw1305 (25 Jan 2018)

Hi all,





mort said:


> I've seen mature specimens exhibiting the green colour in a 4m or so river system.


It mentions them developing a "bluish sheen" before spawning in the <"SeriouslyFish"> profile, which I think is your green back. 





> A more detailed report was published in the German magazine Aqualog in 2005. In this case a group of 15 adults spawned in soft, acidic water (gH 2-3/pH 5.7), depositing their eggs in a clump of Java moss (_Taxiphylum barbieri_). Apparently several of the adults exhibited a colour change with the dorsal surface becoming bluish, and the event appeared to be triggered by a gradual lowering of the pH via addition of driftwood.
> 
> Chester Zoo Aquarium in England have also reported successful breeding, and their theory is that a large group is needed as spawning is hypothesised to occur _en masse_.


cheers Darrel


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## sciencefiction (26 Jan 2018)

Thanks guys. Yes, that's interesting and I only came across that info the other day myself.   I've read that it is very rare for denison barbs to breed in aquariums and my water is hard, so no chance of that is my guess but they're ready perhaps 

Sometimes, one of the barbs would really "shine" in extremely striking colours while "bullying" the others away from a spot...It didn't look like any spawning behaviour I've seen, more like bullying the other fish but the barb doing it would be noticeably more colourful with the green and red getting particularly bright and pronounced. The behaviour is sort of like showing off dominance to the others. It would last for a while, then all of them would start swimming happily together again. I am still puzzled about the "clown loach" colour change. It was such an extreme colour change and the barb went back to completely normal colour afterwards, taking a few months in the process...

I just found someone else's video with denison barbs displaying the green coloration. It is not as good as mine have it   but very close, specifically one of the barbs. There's one pale barb in the video as well which doesn't count


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## sciencefiction (26 Jan 2018)

Well, today I bit the bullet and I now have 28 more harlequin rasboras. Fingers crossed as they went straight into the tank. The shop owner said he's had them since Christmas and they were dong very well and I shouldn't have any problems..... They are small, about 1/3rd the size of my older harlequin rasboras but the lot started swimming together immediately  They sort of separated in two schools and each school had a few of my older/larger rasboras which look humongous amongst them 

The barbs gave them a bit of a chase but ignored them after. I don't know what the clown loaches would do but they pretty much completely ignored my older rasboras from the start. 

I am after dosing a de-wormer just in case because I haven't de-wormed at least one of the loaches I bought this year so It maybe a good idea.


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## alto (26 Jan 2018)

Awesome Harlequin News


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## sciencefiction (27 Jan 2018)

I can't wait for the lights to turn on today to have a better look at the new additions.

I sat down last night and this morning observing for a while and right now absolutely everyone is ignoring the rasboras. There is no chasing, the bigger fish are not even looking at them. The rasboras have scattered around and are literally swimming amongst the other fish in couples and singles with the occasional gathering. I noticed the same with my older group, they're not strict schoolers but would join each other often enough, especially when I do water changes and mess around the tank.

The rasboras are tiny! They look like some sort of insects inside and in fact are as long as the frozen krill I just fed . I don't know how I'll feed so many little fish, and not sure my smallest NLS pellets would fit their tiny mouths. I should have grabbed some flakes...I think the smallest NLS I have is 1mm which I give the other rasboras, and some spirulina pellets which are way smaller and would probably be ideal. I must dig them out of the freezer....

P.S. I could not find the damn spirulina in the freezer...They'll have to try eating the 1mm pellets..


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## sciencefiction (27 Jan 2018)

It looks like the pellets are way too big for their tiny mouths. I was watching one playing soccer with it, carried the pellet on its nose around the tank  I'll order something smaller now. And of course, the clown loaches decided to go all out at bright lights on for a second feeding....

They rasboras are going around in circles right now, stopping around the filter outlets to "play" 

In the mean time, a pic of ripe parlour palm "flowers"...I damaged the stalk while rescuing the kessil LED which was being suffocated amongst the plants. I moved it on the other side, trying to give the new palm and other peace lily some light...


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## dw1305 (27 Jan 2018)

Hi all,





sciencefiction said:


> In the mean time, a pic of ripe parlour palm "flowers"..


Brilliant, you could have a go at growing <"some new plants">.

cheers Darrel


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## sciencefiction (28 Jan 2018)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,Brilliant, you could have a go at growing <"some new plants">.
> 
> cheers Darrel



I thought of trying it but unless I need a palm for the tank, I don't really have anywhere to grow them. They don't do well on the window sill. I recently rescued the sibling of the palm I keep in the tank from the window. It had lost almost all its leaves over the last few winter months. There's been no sun here at all! Now its a poor looking 3 stem piece but is perking up in the pond, although I still haven't figured out how to get more light to it.

Yesterday I noticed that the baby clown loach I bought end of September 2016, so about 1 year, 3 months old loach, is now looking like a 4 inch loach, quite grown up and hangs out with the bigger loaches. That's quite the growth for a clown loach in such period of time,  and is certainly to do with the extra water volume I think.

Today I need to skip the water change because the med(kusuri wormer) is to stay in the water till Tuesday. Then I'll do a large water change and dose praziquantel. Those two should cover a lot of worms/parasites, in case the little ones have any, also I think 4 of the loaches are not dewormed, specifically the 3 large ones I picked last year May and a more recent 3 inch addition. 

I am a bit weary of dosing the prazi because one of the big loaches is gravid and I recently read prazi can have a negative effect, at least in terms of livebrearers such as rays, and can cause them to abort,  not sure about egg layers.  Anyone heard anything like that?

Besides that, I've dosed prazi before on the loaches and it has never affected them at all in any way that I've noticed. Its just that none of them was gravid at the time....


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## sciencefiction (28 Jan 2018)

This is a really short video, so one may want to hit the refresh button but its taken underwater! My phone is somewhat waterproof, sadly the camera stops after a few seconds....but its so much clearer...My poor plants though...no leaves and they've also knocked another soil pot on the other side, making a mess on the sand....


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## sciencefiction (29 Jan 2018)

The little guys seem to be accepting food readily. Due to the lack of proper sized food I just tried crumbling the 1ppm NLS pellets between my fingers as hard as I could and sprinkling on the surface of the water at one spot, and they all gathered underneath  I'll try feeding twice a day that way and we'll see how it goes....They're so cute...

Thankfully the larger fish are not trained to eat from the surface as I sink the pellets with my hand each time. They were circling like sharks, could smell the food I was feeding the rasboras but could not figure out where it is


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## sciencefiction (29 Jan 2018)

And I managed to get underwater pictures!, he, he. They're still not great..

Dirty sand, ha, ha. But that's from the soil pot they knocked about recently. I am going to remove all of them pots tomorrow as there's just one plant standing, or rather empty them completely and put them in as shelter for the corys/kuhli loaches.







Below you can see the new rasboras and two of the 1 year old ones(bottom left and top right, just the tail) which are have a lot more red. 
There's a lot of TLC to follow for the new fish...


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## sciencefiction (31 Jan 2018)

I did a large water change last night. I'll give the fish a break until Sunday, then do another large water change and dose praziquantel. The lights were already off when I came back home so I could not remove the ugly empty plant pots or siphon the soil mess done by the fish.. It can wait until sunday. The corys are having a field day 

So far, from what I can see, the little fish are doing good. They appear very active. They're already figured when the usual feeding spot is and  beg for food when I approach the tank   That didn't take long, ha, ha. 

They also appear completely unfazed by the presence of the larger fish and are swimming amongst them. I have not seen any of the larger fish yet showing the minimum of interest in them whatsoever.  And these rasboars are tiny! They're only fry size yet.


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## sciencefiction (1 Feb 2018)

sciencefiction said:


> Yesterday I noticed that the baby clown loach I bought end of September 2016, so about 1 year, 3 months old loach, is now looking like a 4 inch loach, quite grown up and hangs out with the bigger loaches. That's quite the growth for a clown loach in such period of time, and is certainly to do with the extra water volume I think.



That's him exactly a year ago






And today, bottom centre on the picture


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## sciencefiction (1 Feb 2018)

The other baby loach that was very pale and sickly when I bought him, pictured about 10 months ago






Him today, left side of pic, the smallest loach of all I have but growing


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## sciencefiction (2 Feb 2018)

And some more pictures


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## sciencefiction (3 Feb 2018)

I spent over an hour yesterday watching the fish. They all look healthy to me so I've decided not to dose praziquantel. I can't risk causing any harm to the gravid female loach who is even more gravid now...I don't know if she'll expel the eggs or absorb them...I don't think I've ever seen any of my clown loaches gravid like that before...The other large clown loach is almost the same size but not one bit gravid...

I had some fun watching the tiny rasboras yesterday. They were stealing 2mm pellets, although I had just fed them smaller ones prior, and were simply chewing them down with mouths wide open while doing so...It was really funny....So no fear for them not getting to food  They're a really hungry bunch and beg for food when they see me, the lot coming up to the front of the tank. I suppose they're brave now being in big numbers They also, like every other fish I first added to the tank, swim around the perimeter in circles, just can't have enough of it  but know exactly in which "corner" the food comes 

Today I tried picking up the ugly plant pots that were knocked sideways by the fish months ago, and a bunch of kuhli loaches shoots out, the lot of them inside living in tangled roots of the struggling chopped down crypts  I put them back down again,Who cares it looks ugly  Let them have a little house for themselves to call home....

After lights out, the clowns like "sleeping" around at the front. I see them every evening.  There's a coconut cave and a hollow artificial cave next to each other and it seems the proximity of the two caves makes them feel secure....so I left them be. It's the clowns that dragged the coconut cave over there.....

Here is a bad picture of 3 of the clown loaches resting happily on their sides.


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## sciencefiction (3 Feb 2018)

I just came across the below forum account of someone accidentally breeding denison barbs. Apparently they kept them in tropical water, high range temperatures, way higher than mine, and the water was very hard, pH of 8.2, lol...Totally not the recommended water conditions for these fish..

http://www.badmanstropicalfish.com/forum/index.php?topic=21523.msg230999


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## sciencefiction (4 Feb 2018)

I wanted to show the plant progress over a year...

December last year







13 months later. I will take one when the room gets better light later on..


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## sciencefiction (4 Feb 2018)

Not the best video but here are the new rasboras swimming around. They're extremely active little fish. I love having them in the tank...

There is a runt in the harlequin group, way smaller than the rest.  I saw it while they were still in the fish shop but the runt seems to be doing just as well as the others. I also had a runt when I bought the denison barbs and now I can't tell which one it was....


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## sciencefiction (4 Feb 2018)

Clown loaches and rasboras schooling around the tank, he, he...I need to move the light again as its giving an awful reflection....


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## sciencefiction (8 Feb 2018)

I am thinking to try plants under water again. I saw anubias hastifolia for sale and I am itching to get a few plants but wonder if the fish will decimate them all again....They've pretty much eaten all plants apart from the crinum calamistratum, which is struggling by the way.....

My poor large anubias species are recovering in a shrimp tank, some leaves are growing back, and the snails are cleaning up the left over damage.

Or are there any other bulb plants like the crinum that fish don't eat? I still have never seen any of fish in action, eating the plants, but they ate them down to stalks like eating a corn knob.....I am largely suspecting the barbas as I read they eat plants but I keep seeing them in fully planted tanks.....

Here are a couple of pics of the accidental snail and shrimp tank/tub. All plants came from the pond at some stage, apart from the moss..





The anubias is actually under the moss....The tank is a real mess as nothing is anchored to anything....There's a very thin layer of sand at the bottom...It went through a humongous blue green algae outbreak straight after I set it up but that cleared up long ago...


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## sciencefiction (8 Feb 2018)

Just got myself an Aqua Medic Qube 50 LED fresh water light. 

It should come with a gooseneck as well, not as expensive as the Kessil, in fact about 1/3 the price. I just want to try it. I am not sure if I'll put it over the pond or on some of the tubs or the hillstream tank....But if I like it, I might get another one...

Has anyone tried that LED?

Here is a pic:


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## sciencefiction (10 Feb 2018)

I've been watching the kuhli loaches this morning lurking in and out of the plant pots which are on their sides. The plant pots are still full of clay pebbles and some crypts previously planted in them trying to grow sideways  but the fish seems to love it...I'd love to swap them for clay pots, and not those ugly plastic ones but...that'll disturb the kuhlis too much.


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## alto (10 Feb 2018)

Just get them some of those lattice design orchid pots


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## Smells Fishy (10 Feb 2018)

If you haven't already seen this then watch it. You've probably dreamed of all your clown loaches reaching this size, just a little insight for what your in for.


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## Tim Harrison (10 Feb 2018)

Great to watch a true enthusiast enjoying his hobby


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## sciencefiction (10 Feb 2018)

Thanks fishy  I hadn't seen that particular video.

Two of my loaches are quite large. I can't show the scale from above but they look big, and are about twice as wide girth wise than these two in the video but perhaps a bit shorter. Mine are females, these look like males. My largest one was measured the length of a fork about a year and two months ago. The fork is 9 inches.  One is 6 years old, grown from a baby, the other one I bought 5 years ago and was a 5 incher then, so my 6 years old did a lot of catching as its almost as big. I sometimes can't tell them apart. They're probably roughly 9-10 inch now and very very wide. I am well prepared for more growth....I hope I live long enough to care for them 

Check out my older video, they appear briefly several times. keep in mine I am shooting from way above and the tank is 80cm tall so the fish do appear way smaller than what they are. For reference, the denison barbs are fully grown adults, around 5-6 inches. 9 out of the 13 loaches are bigger, and wider than the denison barbs.


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## Smells Fishy (10 Feb 2018)

In the last second of the video that's when you can see the true size of your big clown loach, defo the biggest I've ever seen apart the video I just shared. Cory is 100% going to buy more monster clown loaches like he hinted at so maybe he might get some even bigger ones in his next shipment. How many inches do they top out at anyway?


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## sciencefiction (10 Feb 2018)

Smells Fishy said:


> How many inches do they top out at anyway?



12 inches. There's no official record to date of any clown loach over 12 inches.


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## zozo (10 Feb 2018)

Smells Fishy said:


> monster


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## Edvet (10 Feb 2018)

http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/chromobotia-macracanthus/


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## sciencefiction (10 Feb 2018)

Smells Fishy said:


> In the last second of the video that's when you can see the true size of your big clown loach



There's two of them almost the same size so one might not necessarily distinguish them. I do confuse them myself but one is gravid at the moment, the other isn't. The one in the last second is the smaller of the two actually, the non gravid female.


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## sciencefiction (10 Feb 2018)

Edvet said:


> http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/chromobotia-macracanthus/



 Quote from the link:
_Supposedly exceeds 400 mm but reports from its native rivers suggest an average adult size between 200 – 305 mm, borne out by the largest aquarium specimens we know of._

The word SUPPOSEDLY is the catch.. No record. Only myths and legends. The biggest recorded loaches in aquariums were all less than 12 inches. Two were Marge, Albert, both between 10-15 years old, both around the 11 inch mark when they died. And there's now a fellow with five 24 years loaches, biggest 11.5 inches, smallest 24 year old is only 6 inches. There are many more records, none over 12 inches....yet....I hope mine outgrow that 

There's another couple of records/videos/pictures I came across where the owners claimed fish 23 years and 30 years. One of the owners said the 23 year old is 8 inches. The other 30+ supposedly loach I've seen on a video, about the size of my big ones.


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## zozo (10 Feb 2018)

What kinda hurst me a bit with a HUGE why?????. And i can't help it.. But catching these fish in the wild? OK, juveniles no issues.. But at that size and that age.. Hence they get startled and hurt them selfs. Sorry, it might spoil the fun for a lot.. But darn!! Please learn from this! Be patient and grow them captive this size if you realy love them.. IMHO this aint love, this is selfishness.. selfFISHness!!!......   And than smile and be proud?... cmon dude.. Use your grey mass!!


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## alto (10 Feb 2018)

Someone on LOL (archives now maybe) had a video of his clowns spawning - as I recall he claimed at least one of 14in
(it's been years since I saw the video, but they were the biggest clowns I'd seen at the time)

BUT hobbyists tend to measure TL & scientists (generally) report SL so that could easily account for discrepancy


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## sciencefiction (10 Feb 2018)

Yes, Marcel, I agree. Same thoughts crossed my mind. Clown loaches have very routine sort of behaviour that they stick to and such drastic change of environment must be a shock to the poor critters. Personally, I love small clown loaches but I did purchase 3 bigger ones last year, which of course were home raised, someone's abandoned pets. It was to wipe the memories of the clown loach that jumped out of my tank



alto said:


> BUT hobbyists tend to measure TL & scientists (generally) report SL so that could easily account for discrepancy



No, total length, nose to end of tail, 12 inches max is the current record. If you can find that video, it would be the only one ever to have had a 14 inch loach and loaches that bred. All other records are rather loaches expelling eggs rather than actually breeding. As mine is gravid too, I wonder what she'll do..

And a more scientific answer to the 12 inch max size...

Quote:_ In 2006, the biggest fish observed among 2300 specimens
caught in the Musi River (Sumatra) was 305 mm in total
length for a body weight of 469 g

_
http://hal.ird.fr/ird-01225687/document

...


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## alto (10 Feb 2018)

I watched a video recently 

375 US gal aquarium:

75 red rainbows - present 

75 bosemani rainbows - in quarantine 

40 clown loaches - final fish to be added (to complete the perfect aquarium)


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## sciencefiction (10 Feb 2018)

Sounds a bit dense, ha, ha. I've noticed that trend of very large aquarium owners stuffing unlimited amount of fish, or dwarfing the tanks with tank busters that aren't suitable for any aquaria.

Then again...I have 13 clown loaches, 34 rasboras, 6 kuhli loaches, 10 corys, 9 denison barbs, 5 SAEs, a pleco.....hmm, did I miss anyone?....in a 240G. So its very easy to overstock without realising it...though I do not think my stocking is a problem yet.


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## zozo (10 Feb 2018)

I once heard someone say it's called Collecteritis...


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## sciencefiction (10 Feb 2018)

Whatever its called, its very contagious


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## Smells Fishy (10 Feb 2018)

zozo said:


>



Dang you got some jest.


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## sciencefiction (11 Feb 2018)

I managed to get some pictures of the large female clown loaches during feeding this morning. They weren't co-operating with the camera flash though 

The first one is the slightly larger, gravid female. See the adult cory on the top right for size reference.... I've had this loach for around 5 years, bought her as a 5 inch loach.





And the slighly smaller non-gravid other female below though its hard to tell on pictures. She's 6 years old, grown in my tanks from a baby.


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## sciencefiction (11 Feb 2018)

Blurry picture but you can see cory/loach size comparison to the gravid female. If an adult cory is about 5cm, then the loach is at least 5x5cm=25cm,nearly 10 inches, could be over that as the picture is not full stretch and the adult cory might be bigger than 5cm.






And another blurry picture of the non-gravid female. Mind you that majority of these other loaches aren't small at all and a few years back I'd have considered them quite big....


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## sciencefiction (11 Feb 2018)

Smells Fishy said:


> If you haven't already seen this then watch it. You've probably dreamed of all your clown loaches reaching this size, just a little insight for what your in for.




Also, the loaches on the above video may look bigger first because they're elongated, where mine are also rather wide, and second his other fish are rather small tiger barbs, where some of my other fish such as denison barbs and loaches are in the 5-7 inch range, plus I can't get a close shot in the pond.

I am not fighting for sizes. I don't care what size my loaches are,  just saying that one can exaggerate or under-estimate fish sizes based on the surroundings and the way the picture/video is taken.


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## sciencefiction (11 Feb 2018)

I managed to get a nice underwater video of the pond. My phone camera didn't switch off this time, ha, ha.


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## sciencefiction (13 Feb 2018)

I added a couple of clay pots on Saturday I got from the garden centre. One if them is sort of mid way between the clown's pvc pipe and their hollow cave, near the side of the tank where my chair is.  Normally when the lights turn off the clowns would hang around the single hollow cave. This is now out of fashion and all had gathered around the small clay pot, ha ha. They didn't necessarily stay inside the pot but surrounded it, were nudging, kissing, trying to bite it, all sort of making love to  cave behaviour  It is definitely a hit


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## sciencefiction (14 Feb 2018)

I sat near the tank for a bit before Valentine's dinner....

Things I noticed....
When I open the door and look at the tank, little harlequins rushing towards the spot I feed. When I put my hand above the tank, little harlequin rasboras rushing again. They're very clever, figured out who feeds, where, when...very fast. They are obviously also a lot more confident now being in a large group. So far, although I can't ever count them again, I don't think I've lost any. They appear healthy and happy. They're still mad about doing circles around the perimeter...

Today I also saw a lot more colour on them, very iridescent orange/purplish stuff coming through which is good but still not as colourful as the old 6 that lived in there since last year. 

I work nearby my local fish shop. I often go for a walk at lunch time. They had a new delivery. Nothing interesting really, they always have the same stuff but they have 4 black kuhli loaches in stock. I am itching to get them...for the small tub for a start but with the potential to add them to the pond with the other kuhlis. I am telling myself 4 kuhlis won't make a difference to the stocking levels


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## mort (14 Feb 2018)

sciencefiction said:


> Quote from the link:
> _Supposedly exceeds 400 mm but reports from its native rivers suggest an average adult size between 200 – 305 mm, borne out by the largest aquarium specimens we know of._
> 
> The word SUPPOSEDLY is the catch.. No record. Only myths and legends. The biggest recorded loaches in aquariums were all less than 12 inches. Two were Marge, Albert, both between 10-15 years old, both around the 11 inch mark when they died. And there's now a fellow with five 24 years loaches, biggest 11.5 inches, smallest 24 year old is only 6 inches. There are many more records, none over 12 inches....yet....I hope mine outgrow that
> ...



I have 6, were 11 but they have slowly died off due to age, 25 ish year old clowns and the size difference I've seen with them is huge. They have all been raised together, lived in the same water, fed the same and the largest grown to nearly twice that of the smallest. I thought it might be a hierarchal thing with the dominant getting most of the food but began feeding at different ends, when the biggest ones were resting from sparring and it seemed to make no difference.
My biggest topped out at 11" TL one it died (meant I could accurately measure it) and the smallest is around 6" still. I had a baby 2" one given to me a few years back and it rapidly surpassed the smallest. For me the group seemed to be like the noah's ark, going two by two, as there were always two fish the same size at each size, so two at 6", two at 8", two at 10" etc.
How can you tell they are gravid and not fat? A few of mine looked the same as in your picture, ie large girth, but this was a constant and with eggs i'd have thought they would have gone through size changes. I changed the died and included more bloodworms and greens and they became more streamlined again, so put it down to a too high protein diet or not enough vegetable matter.


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## sciencefiction (14 Feb 2018)

mort said:


> How can you tell they are gravid and not fat?



The gravid loach is wide sideways when viewed from above, similar to corydoras females when they get full of eggs.  For all the years I've had her, she's only been like that since around perhaps September 2017 last year.  All the rest of the loaches are narrow  like "lines" when viewed form above. The bottom of their belly is also flat like a line and not rounded when sitting flat on the sand, unlike the gravid female...I haven't changed the diet almost since I bought the first clown loaches....I estimate the gravid loach to be around 10 years of age the minimum. She's 5 years in my tanks. I bought her at around 5-6 inch size so she was definitely 5-6 years old when I bought her, plus 5 in my tank, possibly 10-11 years old now, and the only one that got visibly gravid so far...Perhaps I should change the diet, ha, ha..



mort said:


> I thought it might be a hierarchal thing with the dominant getting most of the food but began feeding at different ends, when the biggest ones were resting from sparring and it seemed to make no difference.



I have no problem feeding smaller loaches extra food either and I actually do make sure they get some more later in the day when the big ones are sleeping in the caves.   I don't think the size difference is due to food availability at all. Its got to be hormones of some sort, or genetics, or sex differences, etc..I am not sure what, but my smaller loaches eat as much as any other loach....



mort said:


> My biggest topped out at 11" TL one it died (meant I could accurately measure it) and the smallest is around 6" still.



Similar story here. Sizes vary a lot despite some being the same age. From my first group of 5, which I had for about 6 years, there's one way bigger than all the rest, then a couple around same size, then another couple of same size but smaller than the previous two, then the smallest one which, as you say, I suspect will be surpassed by some of my younger loaches soon enough...

They also hang around the tank by sizes.

My largest two loaches, which are very visibly larger than the rest, are almost always out together. They hang around the tank together, sitting next to each other, following each other etc...

Then I also have a bunch of 4 young loaches, oldest just over a year old. Those 4 are together all the time. When I had just one baby loach in the tank, he was out with the denison barbs and SAEs instead and in fact, for some time he used to run the opposite direction of the biggest/older loaches when they came out..He used to freak out thinking he was gonna be someones dinner...


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## Tim Harrison (15 Feb 2018)

I hope Jeremy Wade doesn't stumble across this post...your indoor pond might become the subject of a River Monsters special


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## dw1305 (15 Feb 2018)

Hi all, 
We need a Belgian (or near to Belgium Dutch member?) to go and check (or find them via the WWW?), but I'm pretty sure there are some really huge Clown Loaches in Antwerp Zoo. I went there about eight years ago when we swapped our house with some people in Emmen and drove there from Calais, stopping in Antwerp over night. 

cheers Darrel


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## sciencefiction (15 Feb 2018)




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## zozo (15 Feb 2018)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> We need a Belgian (or near to Belgium Dutch member?) to go and check (or find them via the WWW?), but I'm pretty sure there are some really huge Clown Loaches in Antwerp Zoo. I went there about eight years ago when we swapped our house with some people in Emmen and drove there from Calais, stopping in Antwerp over night.
> 
> cheers Darrel



I did an extensive search in Dutch and a bit in French, but can't realy find anything conclusive, other than people indeed refering to this zoo if you like to see full grown captured Clown loaches. What i could find is this, some kind of private picture album with a few references to Antwerp Zoo. I assume it's from them, but can't say for sure, but some are large botias for sure..
https://hiveminer.com/Tags/botia,macracanthus

Not sure if it realy was Antwerp Zoo, because there once was Aquatopia across the street Belgiums greatest aquarium attratcion and financialy not affiliated with the Zoo across the street.. Could be tourist mistaken it from beeing one and the same. Aquatopia closed down starting from Januari 2017.
https://www.zoochat.com/community/threads/review-of-aquatopia.366494/

So also not sure if the botias stil ar to be vissited today. Personaly never been there... Don;t ask i don;t visit Zoo's.. Not because of fish, but seen enough apathetic animals behind bars in my younger days, always made me feel like crying and wondering why... And when i was young, Antwerp zoo in particular had a rather very bad name, so never went. This might have changed i don't know, i didn;t change i guess,


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## sciencefiction (15 Feb 2018)

That's someone's tank below with some large loaches.

All of them and above loaches are big but I reckon still around the 12 inch mark.


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## sciencefiction (15 Feb 2018)

32 years old clown loach


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## sciencefiction (15 Feb 2018)

And this one, lol.


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## mort (15 Feb 2018)

Judging by the mascara barbs this one is around the foot mark. Its interesting how high it is in the body, mine still have the normal clown loach body shape. Not sure I really like the deep body.



there was a tank here in the uk that had 30+ and some real monsters. Can't remember where I saw it but it was up north.


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## alto (15 Feb 2018)

Another Cory video - he brought in two wild caught clown loaches estimated as 10-12in

Note the difference in body shape 
Also note, he considers them "skinny"


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## sciencefiction (16 Feb 2018)

Clown loaches aside, I think I've done something to my hillstream tank as I noticed today some of them looking rather pale. When I think of it, I can't remember if I put dechlorinator during the water change last Saturday....There doesn't seem to be any dead ones


mort said:


> udging by the mascara barbs this one is around the foot mark.



That's Marge. When she died the owner Emma Turner said she was around 11.5 inches.



alto said:


> Note the difference in body shape



Wild caught loaches all come in that body shape. They're a bit emaciated though but point is, in captivity we tend to overfeed them in order to push the growth, and they baloon up.  Home raised discus are too larger than their wild cousins.

In captivity the clown loach females tend to grow a "taller" body shape. The males seem to stay slim and narrow, similar to the wild caught loaches but obviously fatter anyhow. 

My two large females are chasing Marge's size, lol.....I hope not but what can I do  Marge doesn't look gravid on that picture so she's just an obese loach I think. 

One of my small loaches, just over a year and a few months old, is already developing the tall body shape, definitely a female. Point is, even from that small size in captivity they tend to develop the wide girth shape, specifically if they're females.  And this small loach in particular was raised in a 240G tank, so not that cramped for space. I do feed them every single day though, and even more than once....Guilty as charged..

But I don't go by body shape but overall colours and condition of their "skin". A lot of clown loaches, even those in public zoos, look rather sickly, some even visibly emaciated with the pinched appearance around the head...Their sink colour is also patchy, a condition they develop when not that healthy. A lot of wild caught loaches are riddled with worms and parasites as welll......Once you kick that factor out, they start putting on weight.....The only time I had a bony loach, was last year's purchase, who came in sick, and I battled to fix him for the first 3-4 months. I eventually did.....with de-worming meds...

The bottom loach below. I reckon she'll grow big and wide...She's the oldest of my youngest at around 1 year 4 months. The top left one is just a year old.  They're quite active all day long, fairly friendly in comparison to some others, and hence getting food all the time too.


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## sciencefiction (16 Feb 2018)

Loaches aside, I think I've done something to my hillstream loach tank. Last night I noticed a few of them being rather pale. They're normally a dark colour. I hadn't paid attention to them all week. When I thought about it, I could not remember if I dechlorinated the tank or not last weekend. In fact, I probably forgot.... I normally do a rather large 70-80" water change.....They're still alive though, so they've gone through the worse of it...The tank being rather old probably helped...


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## zozo (16 Feb 2018)

Funny the least  when the word Goldfish is mentioned in terms of aquarium under 300 litre, there always will be people replying without hesitation "Not suitable, Too Big.." Never did read this regarding this Clown Botia one of the most popular aquarium fishes around. And there actualy aint so much difference.


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## dw1305 (16 Feb 2018)

Hi all, 





zozo said:


> Not sure if it realy was Antwerp Zoo, because there once was Aquatopia across the street


I remember seeing "Aquatopia" on the corner of the square opposite the zoo, but we didn't go in, sounds like a shame it has closed. 

It was definitely the zoo where I saw them, and I think the big Clown Loaches were really chunky and dark coloured. 

cheers Darrel


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## zozo (16 Feb 2018)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, I remember seeing "Aquatopia" on the corner of the square opposite the zoo, but we didn't go in, sounds like a shame it has closed.
> 
> It was definitely the zoo where I saw them, and I think the big Clown Loaches were really chunky and dark coloured.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Aquatopia went bankrupt, it seems to ba a chocolatery now.. And the Zoo took a lot of their fish of what i read mainly the marine spieces. If i ever get to Antwerp again, sometimes i pass through, than i'll remember and definitively have a look.. The idea intrigues me, would love to see those clowns.. 

As said haven't visited a Zoo since the 1970's back then most Zoo's were still a shame and more a freak show than respectfull animal keeping for crying out loud. Antwerp had a realy bad name for that... Artis - Amsterdam i visited was the first and it felt realy bad seeing all the animals in such small cages going mad. The last i visited was 1978 the one in Emmen that you also visited that was the first Zoo in my country and i believe maybe in the world without using bars and cages. They had everything displayed in large pits or water surrounded isles. Only the large predators where behind glass. That was a releaf to experience look far more natural. When i was much younger i remember my parents took me to a Dolphinarium and i wasn't impressed seeing all going on.. I kinda didn't understand and felt sorry for the poor noble animals doing silly tricks for a cheering croud.

I guess it's because i ow my life to our dog, he resqued me from drowning when i was about 5 years old. All my life raised with the knoweldge that i'm still around because of this dog gave me a different perspective how to look at and think about animals. They definitively still don't get the credit they deserve.


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## dw1305 (16 Feb 2018)

Hi all, 





zozo said:


> Antwerp had a realy bad name for that.


From what I remember, as zoos go, it was quite good, with a lot of modern enclosures. There were some of old wrought iron aviaries that aren't in use, but were retained as listed structures.

We stayed very close to the wildlife park in Emmen, but we didn't visit, it was the end of October so it may have been shut.

cheers Darrel


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## zozo (16 Feb 2018)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, From what I remember, as zoos go, it was quite good, with a lot of modern enclosures. There were some of old wrought iron aviaries that aren't in use, but were retained as listed structures.
> 
> We stayed very close to the wildlife park in Emmen, but we didn't visit, it was the end of October so it may have been shut.
> 
> cheers Darrel



I guess you didn't realy miss a lot what isn't to be seen on discovery..  Funny you mention aviaries, that was the most impressing in Emmen, it was huge and a walk through, i remember feeling a breeze in my neck, heard a slight wistling air movement and a bold eagle flying over my head, landing again a a branch in front of me. That was breathtaking impressive.. 

Not so long ago i saw a BBC documentary about the qeustion Should we close down Zoo's.. It's a very old fashion disrespectfull way of making money which has little to do with educating people respectfully. For example, all Elephants in captivity , bottom line all zoo's in the world, have or are doomed to develop foot and leg disseases and deformities etc. giving the animal great discomfort.. Because they are migratory animals and are not made to stand a lifetime in a to small invironment barely able to walk. But zoo directors still try desperately to make huge profits with silly excuses in calling themselfs educative and the modern Arc of Noah, preserving extincion. trying to get peopel closer to nature.. The contrary is true, it bring people further away from it and makes them lazy, because they don't have the need to think or visit nature to see something odd. Nothing natural about it..

If you think about it, it is an absolutely absurdity.. Mankind firstly hunts all to the brink of extincion and than a 100.000 a year urning manager is crying crocodile tears and tries to play with your heart and  raise huge fundings to save in captivity what is already beyond saving.

Yes we should close zoo's, the sooner the better. 

That's what i love about BBC  they always have spot on docu's questioning mankinds ignorance and trying to wake up the world.
Another one rather confronting and definitively a must see.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2008/08_august/19/dogs.shtml

And not BBC but please watch.. And shiver...
http://www.blackfishmovie.com/

Even if morality only reaches 1 in a 100 watchers it is worth a million.


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## Edvet (16 Feb 2018)

A lot of zoo's are on the right track though, with exhibits getting more and more animal friendly. I' ve worked at Burgers Zoo and they are doing their best to improve animal welfare. It's the public that demands some animals to be on "display" and zoos need a lot of visitors to stay afloat. Food and staff cost 2 arms and a leg.


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## zozo (16 Feb 2018)

Edvet said:


> It's the public that demands some animals



It the public that's educated to demand..


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## sciencefiction (16 Feb 2018)

zozo said:


> Funny the least  when the word Goldfish is mentioned in terms of aquarium under 300 litre, there always will be people replying without hesitation "Not suitable, Too Big.." Never did read this regarding this Clown Botia one of the most popular aquarium fishes around. And there actualy aint so much difference.



I've read people being advised about their potential size. Truth is, majority of clown loaches in the trade die within the first year. They are as popular as goldfish. They are colourful and playful, the newbie kid's purchase. 

They're supposedly sensitive when small although I haven't experienced that.  There are are a lot of stories about clowns with itch, emaciation, parasites, etc...plus people cramp them in small tanks to start with, using them as snail eaters, as in 10 and 20G tanks...There's no problem with that for a few months to a year....and in fact, if one has enough snails, probably beneficial to their growth, but after that...the goldfish syndrome....

So yes, the story is very similar to goldfish. They live rather long, some grow big, some don't cross the 6 inch marker. They're fairly active/hyper fish as well so they need the space even when young and small.  Even very small fish like the harlequin rasboras seem to think they're in 7th heaven if given the space...

One of the clown loach keepers I came accross online  has 5 or 6 loaches( can't quite remember), but they're 24-25 years old. He kept them all their life in the same 6f tank. Although small enough, it is obviously sufficient long term as minimum space for a small group...



zozo said:


> I guess it's because i ow my life to our dog, he resqued me from drowning when i was about 5 years old.



Wow, this is a great story. Care to share more details?
I had a cat when I was a kid, throughout my teenage years. He used to bring me breakfast in bed, no kidding. As he was an inside cat only, all he could catch were flies. Every morning he'd sit next to my pillow with a few dead flies right next to my face, and he'd "paw" me to wake me up  I totally loved that cat, had found him in a skip when he was still blind, probably a 2-3 weeks old kittie.  When I went to college, my mother secretly kicked him out to the countryside. We have a house there, but no-one lives in it permanently.  I never saw him again. I hadn't gone home for about 6 months and when I came back, the cat was gone. We could not find him again...I suppose he died as he wouldn't have been able to live alone after so many years being locked up....My mother still regrets she did it, and hurts her even more than it does me...I sort of got over it now, after 23 years....


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## sciencefiction (16 Feb 2018)

Edvet said:


> It's the public that demands some animals to be on "display" and zoos need a lot of visitors to stay afloat. Food and staff cost 2 arms and a leg.



I am certain its a tough job to meet the costs, and also that now majority of zoos have good intentions, providing they have enough funding to meet the animals needs. But there have been animals in zoos that should have never been kept there in the first place. That specifically relates to fish even more, like orcas for example.


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## sciencefiction (16 Feb 2018)

zozo said:


> If you think about it, it is an absolutely absurdity.. Mankind firstly hunts all to the brink of extincion and than a 100.000 a year urning manager is crying crocodile tears and tries to play with your heart and raise huge fundings to save in captivity what is already beyond saving.



From what I've read, 95% of the species that have existed on Earth are already extinct. Seems like the natural cycle...We're the biggest killers, that's for sure.


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## sciencefiction (16 Feb 2018)

dw1305 said:


> It was definitely the zoo where I saw them, and I think the big Clown Loaches were really chunky and dark coloured.



I think chunky and coloured is what you want to see in captivity. Good colour and lack of bony appearance certainly indicates a healthy clown loach. Any patches, spots, etc., pinched/bony appears is either a water quality issue or disease.  I wouldn't consider wild caught clown loaches very healthy when arriving to a life in captivity....Although a lot of captive raised are too chunky...

I read another article last night. It was in some Asian, local to clown loaches habitat language,so I used google translate. It stated the same, majority of clown loaches caught are average sized, largest up to 30cm(12 iches) total length.

A big clown loach between 10-12 inch costs hundreds when exproted, so they'd be sorting those type of clowns before exporting them out of the country(perhaps against local laws) for the "big bucks". But it doesn't mean what they catch is mostly that size as those sizes are rather rare to either purchase, or to raise.

Most people that have kept them for years know not all of them grow as big as "advertised" on the net...And the same seems to be the story in all reports from the wild, rarely reach 12 inch.

The loaches in the zoo would have been purchased by size, donated loaches, wild caught old loaches, etc... I highly doubt it they raised them themselves.....So is the case in many people's tanks who were hunting for large loaches to make a sizeable school. But if you raise them yourself, you face the domino/pyramid effect.  Some large, some half the size of their siblings/cousins the exact same age.


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## zozo (17 Feb 2018)

sciencefiction said:


> Wow, this is a great story. Care to share more details?



There arn't a lot details. For me it is kinda of a legendary story from what i don't know if a realy remember anything from the actual event or just from the story.

I was about 5 years old and a very adventurous rascal on a tricycle.. We had a dog, simply old school mix called blacky. And like inseparable twins he went where i went.. The story goes one day my mom took me to feed the ducks at the local pond. The day after i sneaked out with my tricycle and went on my own to see the Ducks. Blacky followed me as he always did.. The edge to the pond was steep downhill and obviously 1970 brakes on a trycycle was an unaffordable luxery. So i dipped into the pond with tricycle and all.. Blacky immedatly grabed me trousers and started whining loudly. 2 neighbours fishing at the pond got attracked by the dogs whining and came to check it out.. And they pulled me out and brought me home.

I still remember the dog, most vivitly because a few years later i had him on a leash and he spotted a cat.. He went off after the cat dragging me down the street for a few yards. Still remember the abrasions on both my knees.. So it was real love and and affection, friends for life..


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## sciencefiction (17 Feb 2018)

One of my granddads was a war veteran, had half his leg missing and walked around with an wooden one. He had a pile of medals hidden in a drawer,he never showed anyone....which is a different story altogether.....Anyway his dog...well our dog....was called simply  "Hey Boy" The dog had followed my granddad as a puppy straight to his door and into the yard. He said he kicked him out, next day the dog was found in the yard again.....and remained for life. The dog was never ever kept on a leach, locked up or tight up. They made a dog door/hole in the fence so he could get in and out as he pleased.... The furthest he'd go on his own was in front of the house, just lying there normally and observing. If someone went to the shop walking, etc....he'd follow you, wait for you outside, then come back home with you. Even when my sister and I were little kids, and used to go to cinema alone, he'd follow us there and wait outside the cinema until the movie is over....


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## sciencefiction (23 Feb 2018)

Two days ago I came back home from work and as usual, went to the fish tank room first to feed the little harlequins before the light goes off . Well...the light was already off and when I looked in the tank, the light was inside the water, had fallen down.... Thankfully it had switched itself off. It's the kessil light on a gooseneck. I moved it several times over the last few weeks to find it a new spot after I rescued it from among the big parlour palm...I must have not set the gooseneck properly, what a fool.....

I tested it today, it seems to be working but there's still some water inside so I'll leave it off I suppose? Is there any good way to dry such equipment? .....

Today I took a couple of videos of the hillstream loaches. Please excuse the really bad quality but the glass has not been cleaned in years perhaps?

I mentioned earlier in some post about some of them looking paler, thinking I forgot to dechlorinate in one of the water changes a couple of weeks back. Now I when I think of it, some of them were always beige colour and some dark brown....The tank is full of crypts and they are either in and out of the crypts or on the glass with their belly up towards me so I nearly forgot I did see colour variances in the group I bought from the very start and I remember asking somewhere when I purchased these about the colour difference...They're all very lively and feeding well as usual. 

This is the beige variant below. They're also smaller than the darker ones..The shrimp in front are juvenile size. These loaches are really tiny...Sorry about the jumpy video but I had to zoom in to actually get any good view..



And the below is one of the darker and bigger ones. He/she is making some real sand storm, searching for the NLS pellets I had just dropped. They really love their food...


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## sciencefiction (23 Feb 2018)

I forgot to say, my clown loaches have been really happy without the lights on, ha, ha....
Also, the net somehow prevented the light to fully sink in the pond.....Lucky fish, it probably softened the impact....


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## sciencefiction (25 Feb 2018)

Well, I am afraid the Kessil light is toast after the diving  I should be getting the new light this week, if any good, I'll get a second one as I need more light over the emersed plants anyway...


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## zozo (25 Feb 2018)

Next time it dips, don't switch it back on with water in it.. First make sure it's completely dry again.. Put it in a warm spot e.g on an towel on the central heating and leave it for days, preferably longer than a week. Such devices have a lot of hidden convex cavities and probably some parts so close together it holds water by capilary suction between the parts, so keep turning it over during the drying process. If not, it's like moist air forming under an upside down bucket, as long it is warm it's moist air, when it cools down it condenses again into water droplets. This process especialy moist air with brass and electricity accelerates oxydation on conection points e.g in the switches or potentiometers.

This still can be the case causing a shortcut and switching off the leds inside or switching off the psu.. So you might be lucky it still is ok again after it's fully dryed up.. Still worth wile to leave it on the heating for a week or so and turn it over in every direction daily. If it is possible  to screw it open without damaging parts that's even better.

If it still not working after that, than you have little to loose and definitively screw it open, it might contain a little fuse that's blown.. If you find this fuse and you're not sure it's blown, take it out wrap it in a tiny piece of alu foil and place it back. Than if it switches on, find a new fuse and your good to go again.
Google fuse images, you'll find different possible models used in electronics, so you know what to look for.. 

As far is my technical knowledge goes, there likely aint much in the kessils that suffers fatal burn damage from falling in the water and switch it on wett. If it shortcuts the PSU switches off.. It might just be a fuse. If it doesn't contain one as aqaurium light, than Kessil should realy think twice redesigning their product considering the cash involved.


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## sciencefiction (25 Feb 2018)

I'll let it completely dry and see, no rush as its not really used for plants much anyway.  Pity though...

I should be getting the aqua medic cube this week so we'll have something over the tank anyway.


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## sciencefiction (25 Feb 2018)

I forgot to say...I bought elodea(egeria densa), ha, ha. I haven't had this plant for eternity...I am going to try it floating in the tank, see if the hungry fish are going to shred it apart like they did to the rest of the plants...I can actually plant it in the hanging baskets instead. There's just one surviving anubias I put on top of a standing driftwood. Although it suffered some damage, the fish aren't that keen on eating plants from near the surface. The dwarf pink beckettii petchii crypts in the hanging baskets are also surviving the carnage..


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## sciencefiction (2 Mar 2018)

The Kessil still has condensation inside the glass...I won't try it again until all that is gone.

There is still no sign of the other light, with the weather conditions going on...The clown loaches have been out all the time these days.....They seem really happy in the darkness 

I was going to purchase the black kuhli loaches the other day but it was too cold so I'll hold on for a while...I don't really need them


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## sciencefiction (3 Mar 2018)

The little harlequin rasboras have been growing well. Now I can clearly see full bellies and they look more solid from above, not like faint tiny lines anymore...

Yesterday I was watching the tank in the evening when I saw the denison barbs fighting over something invisible on the sand. They rarely go near the bottom but this time several heads bunched together were trying to grab something from the floor. I hadn't fed since early morning so it wasn't food. Then I see two of my corys flying around the tank, eventually getting into a T-position. I did see them spawn a couple of weeks back but I never saw where the eggs were laid. 

There isn't much decor in the tank Previously my corys loved the big anubias, powerheads and the glass, and even floating plants...now I've no idea where the eggs are laid. Anyway, I think that's what the denison barbs were fighting over..cory eggs that perhaps fell on the floor.  I wish I could save a few as I'd want to grow a new generation from my hybrid corys but I'd have to pay more attention to the tank,  react fast and collect the eggs straight way, otherwise they get gobbled up immediately in a community tank...I remember in the past I stayed like a tool holding a plastic cup over the freshly laid eggs to protect them from the other fish, and even the corys, until the are hard enough to be transferred. If you try moving them too early, they fall apart..


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## sciencefiction (7 Mar 2018)

No luck with my light yet. I got an email on the 28th Feb that they haven't got the light from there warehouse yet. No news since. I guess with the weather and all....Today my only surviving plant, the crinum dropped some leaves after being without light for so long....


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## sciencefiction (8 Mar 2018)

The Aqua qube has finally been sent out....That means the earliest next week...

The Kessil is slowly drying, some water left still. It may not work ever at all but I won't try until its completely dry...

The fish are loving it but I've started to worry about the plants, especially the palm I moved from the window sill as it's not getting much natural light and it was already in a bad condition...


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## Edvet (9 Mar 2018)

Can't you put it in a low oven? Say an hour on 40 degrees celcius ( i don't know your strange degrees )


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## kadoxu (9 Mar 2018)

My best advice to recover wet electrical equipment is to dismantle it as much as you can, put it in a container, cover it with rice and leave it for a couple of days... (yes you read that right, I did write rice!)

The rice will absorb all the moisture it can possibly find, and rice dust is not too bad for electrical devices. I've recovered a couple smartphones that ended in the pool this way.


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## sciencefiction (9 Mar 2018)

Well, a bit too late. I did plug it in while wet  Obviously, it switched itself off...It's been off since...The condensation is getting smaller and smaller. If it doesn't work then....tough sh*t  I probably will have the guts to open it up then and play around with it


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## sciencefiction (11 Mar 2018)

Today when doing a water change on the round pond I noticed I had forgotten to plug one of the heaters last week....No issues as the other was on...


I also finally cleaned the front glass of the hillstream tank, lol.....There's a hillstream on the picture right down on the substrate in front of the crypt in the middle. Tiny, tiny fish...1 inch perhaps...






They sift through sand!!!



And some shrimp enjoying algae left overs...






Pair of big eyes, lol











Straight after I cleaned the algae, the front of the tank got covered in shrimp fighting for it  Look at the red carpet, lol


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## sciencefiction (11 Mar 2018)

Also, my peace lily decided to blossom. I'll take a picture when the flowers open up..Its the first time since being in this tank.


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## sciencefiction (13 Mar 2018)

The kessil finally dried out and I turned it on. It's working!....well, at least it's been working for the last hour...It's lighting the floor on the side of the tank as not to stress the fish all of a sudden 

I am to receive the new Qube any time soon....

I could take a good look at the little harlequins and I am amazed at how well they're growing. The 6 adult ones almost blend into the school now. It's been many weeks and they still like doing rounds around the tank exploring the entire perimeter.  I still no see any type of aggression from the the larger fish. The harlequins are completely being ignored.  It seems that neither the denisons, nor the clown loaches are fish eaters...I guess they prefer my plants, ha,ha.


In the last few weeks I walked in every garden centre here and I found no plant that could grow emersed in a fish tank. They've got nothing but spring flowers... I am still stuck with the just two type of plants, its frustrating....The only thing I found is Anthurium Lily. I had it before, it grew and flowered but it eventually tried to turn into a horizontal type of plant growing long stalks right across the surface which of course sank in, so was not working out well for me.  If I don't find anything else, I might give it another go.....

Pic of the flowering lily. There's only one now but normally once it starts flowering, it produces a good bunch..











The palm is rather boring...It has not stopped flowering for the last year probably. It has several flower stalks at a time at different stage of development. I had to fish out seeds floating on the surface the other day and I planted some on the window sill in a pot...will see if they grow..


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## sciencefiction (13 Mar 2018)

Some more hillstream loach pictures

Eating a worm...





Glass climbing





Sand sifting for the pellets I had just dropped. Turn off the sound!!! A movie was on


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## sciencefiction (14 Mar 2018)

Well, the kessil is working but not with the same intensity.  So something went off...Now it sort of works well as a low light which the loaches don't mind. Also, the controls aren't quite working any more. Prior to drowning the light I was able to turn it completely off by the dials and it was quite bright on the highest.  Now I can't. It's stuck on the same intensity which is rather low.....I might end up using it for some emersed plant on my small hillstream tank or as a desk lamp, lol...I hope I get the damn Qube light soon, still not delivered but is with our local post!! The plan is to order a second one if I like the colour rendition of this one. I did not like the colour rendition of the kessil at all..


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## sciencefiction (20 Mar 2018)

I finally got the Aqua Qube 50. I am quite pleased with it. It is actually a way better looking light aesthetically wise than the Kessil. It is very light weight, smaller(less W of course to be taken into account) but the best is the gooseneck which is way, way better. It is thinner, way lighter, slick etc,..etc..It's not that I go for looks over that pond but its worth mentioning....

And the most important part...I love the colour rendition. It has the purple/reddish hue that I so much like in my simple arcadia stretch light and that the Kessil totally lacked. 
It's not enough light over the pond at only 50W to grow plants underwater but at the moment I have it aimed mostly at the above water plants. The fish seem to like it this way better anyway. I'll be definitely purchasing a 2nd one. I totally love it.


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## sciencefiction (20 Mar 2018)

Compare to the Kessil...The Kessil looks better on picture, lol But its a beast, super heavy, and the gooseneck is rather ugly and heavy as well.


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## sciencefiction (27 Mar 2018)

Well, the Kessil completely packed bags.  I am sort of relieved getting rid of it, lol.

I am after ordering 2 more Aqua Qubes 50  One will be for the pond and one for emersed plants on my new temporary tub with more hillstream loaches. It's got its own light but I need more, lol, to grow algae and illuminate the emersed pot. 
I am loving these lights. 

One of my new fish


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## alto (27 Mar 2018)

Commiserations on the Kessil 

I do like the "round" aspect of the Kessil over the Qube but agree the gooseneck is an atrocity - disappointed that the new arms (that came out with the AP700 luminaire) don't swivel (the one thing I like about the gooseneck) - I thought they might looking at the diagrams, but Kessil said not ...

How did that "new fish" sneak in


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## sciencefiction (27 Mar 2018)

Yes, I think the round aspect of Kessil is definitely nicer but inn person I prefer the Qube as an overall design.  The Qube is half the Kessil's size and more elegant looking if side by side, sort of like a cow next to a cat   The gooseneck of the qube is also brilliant. Kessil should have done something like that...not to mention the colour rendition.....



alto said:


> How did that "new fish" sneak in



Ha, ha.

About a week and a half ago, sneaked through the door and jumped straight into a new tub I had set up for them. How convenient  Pity I hadn't gotten a proper "pond" tub yet  So they're stuck in my ex clown loach tub for a while until they learn to feed on fish food. Then I may exchange for a bigger/proper tub.
They've got the flow, the stones, etc.. so should be ok in this for a while. .

 So far they are not interested in fish food and have been stuck to the stones and I am blasting light 16 hours a day to get some algae going(succeeding on the plants at least, lol....my anubias got destroyed) They're pooping a lot, not sure what they're eating. I tried NLS algae max pellets, normal pellets, Repashy soilent green on stones, home made gel food with veggies and spirulina, veggie sticks, bloodworms....nothing peaks their attention bar whatever's growing on the stones. I am waiting on a micro worm culture to try some live food....

They're beautiful. I think I have two species G.Ctenocephalus and G.Sticulus.

I pic of G.Scitulus


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## sciencefiction (27 Mar 2018)

The temporary tub but its probably going to be temporary for a few months....That heater is never turned on....






With temporary light but should be receiving an arcadia stretch any day now, plus the aqua qube for the peace lily....maybe a bit overkill. My poor anubias had zero algae a week ago


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## sciencefiction (4 Apr 2018)

My peace lily is so beautiful.


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## sciencefiction (4 Apr 2018)

The peace lily that is seen in the previous post, over the blue tub, is the one that was smothered in a corner by the palm and never grew one bit in nearly 1.5 years. They just need their light to grow...Now it's got its own light and its picking up big time over the last 2-3 weeks.


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## sciencefiction (7 Apr 2018)

I wanted to show a couple of pictures of my new hillstream loaches. It's been rather busy 3 weeks since I got them to keep them happy. I did lots of water changes, daily 90% to 50% plus tons of different foods to get them to eat, etc...and up to 18hrs of light to get the algae going because I set up the tub new, sort of in a rush as I bought the fish on a whim. So far they seem to be doing really well, especially after the addition of live black worms.


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## sciencefiction (7 Apr 2018)

I also received the 2 new Aqua Medic Qubes 50W. Now I have 2 over the pond and a 3rd one is facing the above new loach tub which sits just next to the pond. For anyone that can't suspend a light from the ceiling and wants to grow emersed plants, I really recommend them. It is very hard taking a picture of "colour rendition" but I'll take a video one of these days...I think the light is really good.


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## sciencefiction (28 Apr 2018)




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## sciencefiction (2 Sep 2018)

I got home from a 3 week holiday yesterday.

I had left the fish alone, no one looking after them. That's the longest period I've been away for and I am pleased to come back to a pretty much happy tank, although a bit too hungry. For some reason in my attempt to leave things on the safer side I had left the fish feeder dropping only a few pellets once a day, like 10 pellets max after I tested it again,  which of course wasn't near enough to feed the fish normally. I only noticed when I came back. The fish were really happy to see me looking over, everyone came out  Hence I tested the feeder because they got furious when I fed them  

Luckily the clowns haven't had a go at the harlequins.There's a big bunch of halrequins still swimming around although I don't know how many. Clowns, denison barbs and SAEs seem fine. I also saw a few kuhli loaches as well, meaning chances are all of them are there under the stones.

The water level was down but on the safe side and it could have lasted another week I think if I stretch it with no water changes. It just gets a bit too noisy due to the low water level. 

I got scared for a second seeing some clown loach flesh in the coconut cave, thinking one got stuck.  When I lifted it 3 of the small clowns swam away 

Glad to see the tank can last that long with no issues whatsoever. Plants have grown although the new fern isn't doing well at all. A week before I left I put one experimental ochrid which my other half brought home half dead from the window at his work place. It's grown a leaf and has greened up. 

As for the rest of the tanks, still checking...The singlet platy in one tank is alive and binge eating over the last day. She normally hides from me but since I came back she's first line at the surface 

The two hillstream tanks are due to be checked as I speak....I hope they survived without food....


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (2 Sep 2018)




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## sciencefiction (5 Sep 2018)

I had a good look at the 2 hillstream loach tanks over the last few days. 

One of the tanks, besides the tons of green hair algae, looks perfectly fine and I can't detect any fish losses. There were a few baby loaches among them and even they are still ticking so my guess is all are fine. There are no bones or dead loaches around.  All the fish look plump and active and despite being a combination of a few species, they seem to be getting on really well.  There a a lot of stones in this tank, the bottom is pretty much covered in them, all with algae. I think that has helped a lot. Plus I still saw some blackworms surviving which the fish like the dig for. 

I am not so certain about the second tank. I only saw half the crew in there. They normally come out at the front to eat each time I feed but so far I've seen only half and they're a bit on the skinny side. This tank is mostly planted, so besides food I normally feed, the loaches wouldn't have had much to eat. There are some algae covered stones though.  I hope I am wrong but I may have lost some. The tank is also smaller so that would play a role on the water quality too. It could also be that they're hiding out the back and not coming up to the front....if I am lucky.


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## Edvet (5 Sep 2018)

Large amount of pics are gone for me


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## sciencefiction (5 Sep 2018)

Not sure what happened to the pictures....They're still in my account but probably the links are broken.

I took a few today. That's it at the moment. I would have to remove the net to take more appealing pictures.


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## alto (15 Sep 2018)

As Ed says, missing pix


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## sciencefiction (15 Sep 2018)

The pictures are in my picture account so not sure why they're missing. 

When I click Edit on the actual posts here there's no link to the pictures. Its blank where the picture should be, like the links are deleted. Even if I have access to amend the posts, I wouldn't know which picture I put in the first place


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (15 Sep 2018)

I can see the pictures!


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## sciencefiction (15 Sep 2018)

That's odd, cause I can't see them myself.


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## sciencefiction (15 Sep 2018)

I forgot to say in my initial posts after the holiday, and was too lazy at the time it was happening, that one of my Denison barbs went through a colour change again, same as last year around roughly at the same time of the year.  Its colour started converting to some odd patchy colours. I thought I'd take a picture when I get back from holidays but by the time I got back, the fish was back to completely normal colour. It is difficult to take pictures with the net off...regret I didn't take at least one...As I mentioned before, I think some of the barbs have a "xanthic" gene and it is apparently normal for those to actually change colour temporarily. 

Apart from that, the denison barbs are big and chunky, very colorful, and really lively. They're really great fish to have. I don't like schooling fish at all normally and I got these to distract the loaches. It's been working really great for me though, especially that they school with the SAEs so the entire combination of fish species has worked out great. And my small harlequins are no longer that small and not intimidated by the big fish as they line up for food with the rest with no fear. They've figured no one would attack them in that tank.


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## sciencefiction (5 Nov 2018)

Hi. I've forgotten to update but being too lazy and nothing has changed much. I'd be repeating the same stuff all over. Fish seem happy as every and they're still the same numbers and groups. I hope it lasts like that for years to come. 

My plants, however, are growing bigger and bigger and its looking like a jungle in there.  They are a lot bigger than it looks on the picture as well.


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## mort (5 Nov 2018)

That syngonium seems to have settled in well


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## zozo (5 Nov 2018)

Awsome!!


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## sciencefiction (6 Nov 2018)

mort said:


> That syngonium seems to have settled in well



The other two ferns didn't make it but the syngonium is growing really fast.Its growing more in the shape of a bush and its not creeping on me yet  It gives a nice contrast to the darker plants. I love it.


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## sciencefiction (14 Jan 2019)

sciencefiction said:


> I had a good look at the 2 hillstream loach tanks over the last few days.
> 
> One of the tanks, besides the tons of green hair algae, looks perfectly fine and I can't detect any fish losses. There were a few baby loaches among them and even they are still ticking so my guess is all are fine. There are no bones or dead loaches around.  All the fish look plump and active and despite being a combination of a few species, they seem to be getting on really well.  There a a lot of stones in this tank, the bottom is pretty much covered in them, all with algae. I think that has helped a lot. Plus I still saw some blackworms surviving which the fish like the dig for.
> 
> I am not so certain about the second tank. I only saw half the crew in there. They normally come out at the front to eat each time I feed but so far I've seen only half and they're a bit on the skinny side. This tank is mostly planted, so besides food I normally feed, the loaches wouldn't have had much to eat. There are some algae covered stones though.  I hope I am wrong but I may have lost some. The tank is also smaller so that would play a role on the water quality too. It could also be that they're hiding out the back and not coming up to the front....if I am lucky.



With some delay following up on this but I figured eventually that the hillstream loaches survived the 3 weeks just fine. It just took quite a while to see them all at the front together to count them. The tank is extremely overgrown. Since then they survived another 2 holidays without food...

And on the round pond, I took a very poor video but I'll post it anyway as I've been lazy again not updating...Nothing new there. I think the fish spent 3 Christmas's in pond already. I think they really like that pond.


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## sciencefiction (18 Jan 2019)

Come January and I start paying more attention to my hobby.

Yesterday I bought a betta fish. I think out of boredom, and I was even telling the shop attendant that I don't like them at all while paying for it 
It's just that I got the urge and my last platy died after years of trying to get rid of them...So I had the tank(plastic tote ) was sitting empty...

He managed to catch my eye not because of his pink appearance but because he seemed very interactive in the shop and was coming over to check out my finger...So home with me he came..





Coming to check me out while I was leaning over....




And a picture of the hydrophila growing emersed...First time ever in years of keeping it. Any leaf that tried to break the water before used to dry out but this stalk now is growing strong and is flowering....I am pretty certain I used to insist that the species of hydrophila I got doesn't grow emersed....


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## sciencefiction (18 Jan 2019)

Forgot the pic of the pond itself


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## sciencefiction (18 Jan 2019)




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## sciencefiction (18 Jan 2019)




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## sciencefiction (20 Jan 2019)

The new betta fish seems to be doing well and already lines up for food. He is very curious. He doesn't seem to be afraid of me and swims up when he sees me.I think he also likes that there are plants and driftwood higher up in the water column as he's been seen using them as a sofa bed. Yesterday morning he was perched on the dritwood with his tail wrapped around it..He almost gave me a scare when I walked in at first but then I figured he uses the tail as an anchor. He seemed totally content.

The only worry is that one side of the tank is full of plant roots from the peace lily, and also the hydrophila,  and I hope he doesn't venture into them much to get his big tail tangled but I'll have to keep an eye...He's turning out to be quite the beggar for food which makes it easier to see how he's getting on.


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## sciencefiction (20 Jan 2019)

I took another video just now. The start of it features my larger loaches...then I spooked the fish a bit by moving my hands around...I don't know if anyone has paid attention enough to notice but the denison barbs, clown loaches and SAEs swim altogether where the harlequin rasboras have nearly half the tank to themselves at the further side....


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## sciencefiction (27 Jan 2019)

Some more pictures I took yesterday.


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## sciencefiction (27 Jan 2019)

The hydrophila in the betta tub is going crazy. I don't know how its not killed by the air and what caused it to get emersed this time after so many years always drying up when it gets outside the water. The emersed growth seems really healthy and adapted to being in the air. The hydrophila was in this same tub for 3 years prior to venturing out the water....The only difference is the tub has a flood light on top of it now since about last August, which it shares with the tub next to it.. I suspect the hydrophila likes this light better than the aquarium light previously....

I ran out of fish food as well. I normally keep it in the freezer and I hadn't noticed the jars were almost empty. So now I will have to feed bloodworms for a week at least. The fish are ecstatic

The betta was turning its nose to the pellets from time to time but is gobbling the bloodworms really happily... He better doesn't get used to it..


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## sciencefiction (27 Jan 2019)

I also have an orchid which my other half brought from his work place last year some time. I didn't give it much chance but its been hanging in the tank since and grown some leaves. It seems like a really slow grower but it only had 2 leaves initially which I since cut out. All the ones below have grown in the tank.


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## sciencefiction (28 Jan 2019)

I'd like to also re-introduce my bristlenose pleco again. I thought yesterday that he is now over 8 years old or thereabouts. I bought him as a tiny little fish the year before I had the clown loaches and he made it through several tanks over the years. He's always been a grumpy fish and likes to hide in the funniest of places so I sometimes forget that I have him. He can really stand his own with the clown loaches when it comes to feeding time.


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## sciencefiction (28 Jan 2019)

The net is ugly stuff but here is an entire picture of the pond for sense of scale, as the pond currently is. The plants dwarf the size of the pond. 


 

The below is from about 2 years 4 months ago


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## sciencefiction (3 Feb 2019)

The Hydrophila is so beautiful


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## sciencefiction (17 Feb 2019)

There is baby kuhli loaches in the pond or at least one that I saw well 

I was doing a water change and I saw the orchid plant had fallen out of the clay pebbles basket into the water. When I was placing it back, I see something moving around the clay pebbles...it was a baby kuhli loach. I forced it out of the basket because I was draining the tank, hence draining the basket so I could not snap a picture. It went under a driftwood and after staring for a while, I saw some more tiny heads in there. I know the kuhli loaches hide under driftwood, stones, even under the clown loach PVC pipe, so I stopped lifting them up during tank maintenance to avoid disturbing them but I am itching now to lift them all up and see what I got. 

 I've had the adult kuhli loaches since about 2013 I think. I don't know how the small one survived considering the amount of relatively big fish in there, then again I haven't seen the clown loaches or denison barbs show any interest in the adult kuhli loaches. I think I have more babies hiding. We'll see.


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## sciencefiction (22 Feb 2019)

A bit about the betta....

As I mentioned, I am not a fan of them generally and I only had one before some years back.But this fellow has been slowly changing my initial opinion on these fish....He is extremely friendly, not friendly in a way live bearers for example rush when they think they're going to be fed. That's a bit annoying once you've had enough of it. 

He is different. He seems to be the "thinking" type. Sometimes he comes when I just lean over.  Some times I lean over and he's somewhere among the plants not paying attention to me. But when I start talking, he runs within seconds, like when you call a puppy. 

He also really likes following my fingers above the water. I know it's about him thinking of me being the food bearer but I can actually touch his nose when "leading" him around the tank before dropping the pellets. It seems to amuse him following me too.  I am glad he's doing well so far and I hope he doesn't have some genetic defects as most have but I've been really enjoying having him so far. Nice little fish.

And some clown loaches, denison barbs, SAEs and harlequin rasbora fun below from this evening. 
You can see some of the harlequin rasboars darting near the camera here and there but I swear they have 120G for themselves inside this tank because the clown loaches, denison barbs and SAES, although seemingly swimming in their own packs of species, the packs of fish themselves are always very close to each other and intermixing. The back side of the tank is almost empty and full of harlequin rasboars


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## sciencefiction (24 Feb 2019)




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## sciencefiction (24 Feb 2019)

Plants started flowering already. The palm has never stopped flowering in years but the lily is more seasonal. I grew two more lilies this winter, one in the hillstream loach tank and one is in the betta tub but they have not yet flowered, hopefully this summer as they're now big and old enough.

On a somewhat sad note, finding the baby kuhli loach in the plant basket prompted me to check out a basket I removed from the tank last summer. I just took it out and let it dry. It's full of clay pebbles. Today I found a dried up kuhli loach in it....How I regret I never checked the basket for fish but I didn't know they'd hide in there.


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## sciencefiction (5 Mar 2019)

Becoming a betta fish addict at old age, lol but he's so funny.

I went to drop some food around the tanks and I started calling the betta. There's a piece lily in the tank and one leaf is in the water horizontally, slightly below the surface. So the betta started swimming towards me but bumped into the leaf on the way. As it was too little water above the leaf, he turned himself sideways and dragged himself all over the leaf in order to come to the corner where I was standing. I wish I had my camera at that moment


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## sciencefiction (10 Mar 2019)

The betta did the jump on leaf stunt again yesterday evening trying to get to my food loaded fingers. This time, however, the peace lily leaf was level with the water surface and the fish just ended up on its side on top of it  For safety reasons I pushed the leaf down


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## sciencefiction (10 Mar 2019)

It looks like my crypt is sprouting a flower stalk. It's planted in the peace lily basket in my hillstream loach tank.


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## sciencefiction (14 Mar 2019)

I was looking back at my posts, not sure what happened to some of the pictures...I think I uploaded most of them via the "Upload a file" button but I could be wrong....All pictures on my picture account are still there but some here are missing...

Anyway, wanted to post an update on the loach that was sick when I got him a year and a half or so ago. He's growing and has caught up on his sibling I got at the same time, although you can't see the scale much on the pictures.

He was like that then while being treated for various things:



 

And now below. I haven't had any problems with him since.


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## sciencefiction (14 Mar 2019)

A video from yesterday below. I get the tank isn't very aesthetic looking and I bet the fish would tell me so if they were able to talk 

You may want to turn off the sound 



Some feeding frenzy


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## sciencefiction (14 Mar 2019)

Some more shots of the plants, although they look the same as before 

They are generally healthy but I do remove a lot of old leaves that tend to die so pretty sure the nitrogen isn't that high in the tank, plus I monitor the TDS and I've been in line with my tap for all the time the tank has been setup except for after a holiday. The fish I think appreciate that and are showing robust health and vigor. They're extremely active and the recent discovery of a kuhli loach baby is a bonus.

I am also amazed that the tank doesn't tend to suffer any biofilm on the surface. I've had it sometimes but its always been short lived. For majority of time the surface is crystal clear.


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## zozo (14 Mar 2019)

What a beautifull and lovely jungle!. Do you also have a picture of the complete setup?.


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## sciencefiction (14 Mar 2019)

I


zozo said:


> What a beautifull and lovely jungle!. Do you also have a picture of the complete setup?.



Thanks Marcel.I do,but because the pond has a net over,the pictures come out ugly. I will try taking a half decent one of the entire setup these days


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## DeepMetropolis (14 Mar 2019)

Fish sure do look happy.. was great fun to watch..


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## sciencefiction (14 Mar 2019)

Thanks DM


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## sciencefiction (14 Mar 2019)

zozo said:


> Do you also have a picture of the complete setup?



Hey Marcel, I took a few snaps this evening. Ideally I'd want to remove the net and I've been thinking to do so for the last year to take some more decent pics...


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## zozo (14 Mar 2019)

sciencefiction said:


> Hey Marcel, I took a few snaps this evening. Ideally I'd want to remove the net and I've been thinking to do so for the last year to take some more decent pics...
> 
> View attachment 122585 View attachment 122586 View attachment 122587



Thank you!!.. Realy looks awsome!.  Love the massive plant growth, as i expected...

If you dislike the net so much. may i make a suggestion?.. I think i see an easy and cheap way around it.. Literally around i, also with net but less in your face and even more practical.

But than i have one question.. If they jump, how high would they jump??


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## sciencefiction (14 Mar 2019)

zozo said:


> But than i have one question.. If they jump, how high would they jump??



They actually don't jump, only when I feed them in the morning while piling up in a bunch at the surface but generally none of them appear to be real jumpers. Only that I had one loach jump out 2 years back and I don't want to lose even one fish to jumping. Other than that I think I may go months or years without a jumper...although who knows... Also, since the plants are overhanging half the pond, the further side is safe with no net. I was thinking to get plants all around the tank but it will be difficult to get light to all plants as light is majorly the window. 

I am looking forward to your suggestion You're always full of useful ideas


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## zozo (14 Mar 2019)

sciencefiction said:


> I am looking forward to your suggestion You're always full of useful ideas



Thank you..  I hope so!?

Anyway.. I see the tub has a rim around it as a sort of a upsidedown U profile.. Than if you take aluminium tube 8mm thick, which is 6mm internal.
Than take an aluminium M4 Blind rivet nut, this is 6mm external and fits snuggly into the 8mm alu tube.

Some tech details. if you use a mini pipe cutter to cut the pipe. Than the pipe will have an internal burr edge from the cutter. Than if you use a rivet gun, to insert the blind nut, this edge helps to keep the rivet firmly in place in the tube.

But less technical and equaly effective without the gun. Glue the rivet nut into the tube with a strong glue (Bison)..

Than you will have a piece of 8mm alu tube with M4 thread inside. Drill a 4mm hole in the tubs rim.. Its a tiny hole it wont damage the structural strength of the tub. Screw the alu tube verticaly to the top rim of the tub with a M4 screw from bellow. You can make the tube 10 cm, 20cm or 30cm long. What ever your preference is.

Figur out the correct distance for the 2nd vertical tube and the next in the diameter from the tub to fence it off verticaly with a strip of net. All around the tub.. You could use Tie Raps to fasten the net to the tube.

Seeing the picture, i guess you need about a 6 vertical tubes in equal distance standing verticaly on the rim, to fence it.. 

I hope you got the idea what i mean.. It's easy peasy actualy.. Every hardware store hasthe 8x6mm alu tube and the mini pipe cutter, M4 blind river nut are available via ebay for a dollar.

This way you create a verticale fence around it in prefered height. If they jump close to the edge, they will bounce back from the net, not even suffering a headage..

You just need to figur out the height you are comfortable with..





I used the blind rivet nuts to create this.. But the idea is the same.. 
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/cob-led-alu-mecanno-style-light-stand.50248/
Get Metric thread into tube..


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## sciencefiction (14 Mar 2019)

Wows, I'd need to re-read that a few times and google a bit for it to sink in Thanks very much. The part I am not comfortable with is drilling any holes in the tank. I still have fresh memories of my fish tanks flooding the place several times  Life in plastic has been fantastic


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## zozo (14 Mar 2019)

If you look at the simple diagram i made with mspaint. You see the red vertical tubes and where the 4mm itsy pitsy tiny mini hole needs to be drilled. I can assure you it absolutely will not damage the structural strenght of the tub..

The yellow line is the net creating a fence around the tub..


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## sciencefiction (14 Mar 2019)

Thanks. Yes, my head says it will not damage the structural strength of the tank but that part of my body doesn't work every day 



zozo said:


> If you look at the simple diagram i made with mspaint.



I didn't get any of it until I saw the picture


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## zozo (15 Mar 2019)

sciencefiction said:


> that part of my body doesn't work every day





Than take the ol fashion Table tennis Net Clamps.




Or such a clamp to drill a hole in and to screw a vertical tube to it.


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## sciencefiction (15 Mar 2019)

Thanks Marcel. I'll look into it. Although for majority of time the net doesn't bother me and it's easy just lift it off when I need to. If I get a fence around, I might as well not go near the tank  

I'll think about it though. I am more after functionality and then only if I don't sacrifice functionality I'll do something about aesthetics, plus I have two left hands when it comes to putting things together


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## sciencefiction (18 Mar 2019)

I got a thorough cleaning today. That's what I call efficient maintenance. I clean them, they clean me.


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## sciencefiction (21 Mar 2019)

It looks like someone has been busy today. I came back to a bubble nest 

Sadly that will be gone in 2 days with the water change...I don't know if I should break the news now or later...


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## sciencefiction (31 Mar 2019)

I picked up some frozen bloodworms on Friday and Saturday morning I remembered they're still in the bag.

So the clowns have pigged out several times since to help me keep the waste down  I don't like forcing them to eat, but what can I do 

There's the energy boost now in action


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## sciencefiction (1 Apr 2019)

This evening it dawned at me that I never tried taking a video of the harlequin rasboras. 

Their "habitat" is under the emersed plants at the further side of the tank where the clowns don't venture much. In fact the barbs, SAEs and clowns all stay at the opposite side. Scary harlequins I suppose 

Here is the first attempt below. It is a bit dark because half the lights over the tank were already off...But the little harlequins are doing very well and are now all grown ups.


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## sciencefiction (12 Apr 2019)

I did a stupid thing today 

I am just not ready to share what but the "stupid thing" was supposed to go into its own tank which is just housing shrimp..I decided it is a good idea to first clean up, do a large water change and also clean the filter...Well, the filter isn't working anymore.....

So, plan B and the "stupid thing" went into my betta tank as it was the only suitable one based on the requirements of the "stupid thing".

I'll just mention that the "stupid thing" needs massive attention and medication to even make the weekend...

I got the "stupid thing" for free from my local shop in the hopes to mend it. They had tried their best and it was hanging to dear life...had been watching it for a few days and it crossed my mind I'd apply my fish vet knowledge to try saving the "stupid thing"..

Now I hope my poor betta doesn't catch anything, or the rest of my fish for that matter. 

The "stupid thing" is stunted and emaciated and in distress color.


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## sciencefiction (13 Apr 2019)

Well, guys, the "stupid thing" in question is a very sick looking discus...

He's stunted, big eyes, deformed body, pinched above the eyes, triangle sort of body. He's got clamped fins, displaying the stress bars and is dark, really bad condition. I don't think I've ever seen a discus looking that bad and if anyone had one of those, they certainly did not take pictures.

Yesterday I dosed with a dewormer. That prompted the Malaysian Trumpets to climb above water line. I scooped them up and put them in another small shrimp tank I have. The betta has been literally throwing tantrums and seems afraid of the discus although the discus isn't much bigger than the betta.

I also tinted the water dark with some rooibos tea to hopefully make him feel more secure. I have a bag of oak leaves stashed somewhere for rainy days and now I can't find them.

Surprisingly the discus today managed to eat 2 bloodworms although he spit out majority. He's still looking the same as in the shop but for some reason is not acting like he looks. He's swimming around, spooking the betta and shows a great interest in me, coming over like a puppy. I don't know if the fish would make it and what I am going to do with it but my logic is that it was on a death row anyway if it stayed in the shop.

I did a couple of water changes today to remove the uneaten bloodworms and I had to redose the dewormer. I am not sure how much is in the water now but as far as I know its ok to overdose.

I know the fish is not in the typical bare bottom empty tank but that plan fell through with the filter giving up. I've ordered a filter but it won't be here anytime soon so the two fish would have to get on somehow.

Here is a blurry video to give the idea how bad that fish is. Yeah, I know he's shocking looking.



And the betta, who has been looking good lately, the fins growing longer.


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## sciencefiction (13 Apr 2019)

Tomorrow when I do a water change on the hillstream tank I'll fish some blackworms from under the stones and try them on the discus. At least they won't rot if not eaten, although I don't know if they'll cope in the medicated water.


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## Ed Wiser (13 Apr 2019)

It's not a stupid thing to try and say a fish. It can be quiet a challenge when you get a fish from a shop who don't really care about their livestock. Good luck on getting him back. They don't do good by themselves needs some friends when the fish gets healthy.


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## sciencefiction (13 Apr 2019)

Thanks. Yes, I know they can't be by themselves. I am not sure what I'll do if he makes it through. I'll concentrate on his health now and see how things go. He's in really bad condition so no one knows how much he's got left really. So far he's acting curious around the tank and seems calm. He's not hiding which is good, and comes over to me. I probably walked in about 30 times today to check on him and he seems to like the attention.


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## sciencefiction (14 Apr 2019)

Light is off but I noticed someone has made steaks into the sand, like a flock of chickens have been running around..lines in the sand all over....very odd 

I tried feeding both bloodworms and NLS hexshield pellets just now and although the discus goes for them, he doesn't chew them and spits them out. The betta seems afraid of the discus and is now occupying the back of the tank as the discus has taken front position. It is even odd calling that fish discus as it does not resemble one....I've no idea what is its natural color..

What is the saddest thing is that the fish appear to be intelligent enough and is a curious fish, checking out any movements and following my finger...Sad life for that being so far...I hope I am not torturing it any further. I want it to start eating as it won't get better without some food. 

I'll fetch some live blackworms later and see how that goes.


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## sciencefiction (14 Apr 2019)

I just sat down watching him for about 15 mins and he keeps swimming about. There's a high flow spot that blows him a bit but he seems to have figured out how to go around it. He seems active enough for a sick fish so hopefully that's a good sign the meds are doing something. 

There's a big peace lily in the tank that used to be planted in a plastic suction cup container on the side of the tank, which eventually fell off and I was unable to re-attach. It has since grown roots into the sand ,the crown is in the water too, only leaves are above. It's been like that for 5 years or so.  The discus is fascinated swimming between the stalks and also picking on some invisible stuff from the roots. 

I was also feeding the betta when the discus came up to check it out and poor betta looked like a cornered kitten, "hissing" back at the discus with flared gills. The container is only 80 litres so not big enough for them two but it's got to do for now.


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## sciencefiction (14 Apr 2019)

I fetched a few black worms and I poured them in front of the discus nose. He did not see them! They're actually quite thinner and smaller than bloodworms. So that idea didn't work out.

However, every time I approach the tank the discus rushes towards the front. So I thought I'd try bloodworms again as he acts hungry. It was very funny as the betta also smelled the bloodworms and instinctively found himself next to the discus, both staring at each other. Despite its sick state, the discus is acting the cichlid territorial game, not liking company at feeding time, neither is the betta but so far no attacks. 

So the good news is the discus managed 3 bloodworms, improvement from yesterday...I figured I'd try the smallest bloodworms just in case the size is the reason he was spitting them out and it seems it works. He seems able to swallow the smaller ones. So there it goes, I'll be fishing out small bloodworms with my bare fingers...as long as he's eating them.

Because today I didn't stuff the betta early in the morning with bloodworms as I did yesterday, he actually moved his lazy bum and ate the left overs that the discus didn't want.

I also did a larger water change and cleaned the filter in tank water a bit as I hadn't done it in a while. I replaced the meds and put some rooibos tea back in 

I am also thinking to catch some cherry shrimp after the treatment. Perhaps it will spark some interest. I think the betta had wiped out the remaining ones as I haven't seen any in a while.


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## mort (14 Apr 2019)

Kudos on you for giving it a chance. I did the same with a magnificent foxface 6 months ago. In its case it had flukes and worms that made it so emaciated that you could virtually see through it. I didn't give it any hope but it's made a full recovery and is fat and happy. I thought about moving it on but it's grown and me and was well worth all the effort, not to mention money I spent. 
Hopefully you will get a similar happy outcome.


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## sciencefiction (14 Apr 2019)

Thanks Mort. i don't know if I'll have the same sort of success the the fish for sure wants to live


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## sciencefiction (14 Apr 2019)

It just ate another two bloodworms. I am handfeeding it. It comes to my hand, how wouldn't you feel sorry for the poor thing witch such personality and will to live.

He is not looking any better though but he's acting as if he's ok enough so that gives me hopes, hopefully not false ones.


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## sciencefiction (15 Apr 2019)

Well,the fish ate 2 more worms before bed last night. I got up early in the morning and made him eat another 2 before I went for work. Tonight I'll try more,maybe i should get some brine shrimp too...and a water change.

Visually the fish is as dark as it was in the shop,so no progress on that front. Fins are still clamped too.


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## sciencefiction (16 Apr 2019)

Last night I was laughing so much at the betta and discus dynamics, I got tears in my eyes. It is so funny.

When I came back home yesterday, both fish were eagerly waiting at the front next to each other to be fed. I thought, wow, they've become friends. Then I proceed to feed the discus first, on purpose, so the betta is hungry enough to scoop left overs. As I dropped food, all of a sudden the company of the betta wasn't so desirable so the discus shot for the betta. The betta jumps on  top of a leaf hiding, the discus pushed the leaf up with its nose to get him off it...The betta ran away.

After that I did a water change and then stood looking at the fish. The discus was standing looking at me and I then see the betta ambushing him from behind, flared gills, eyes almost popping out of his sockets, really angry looking fish approaching the discus at full force and I thought....that's it, he'll attack the discus...but then thankfully for some reason he stopped as fast as he started just short of the discus tail. The discus never saw this one coming...

Then I decided to feed again and both fish lined up at the front.  I started feeding the discus first again but this time the betta wasn't having any of that....He stood there next to the discus flaring all the time while I was dropping bits of food. He was in fact flaring at both my fingers and the discus and I as laughing aloud. He thought he's a big man, lol.  Then as he figured that this sort of behavior wasn't getting him any food, he swam under the discus and very cheekily started stealing his food under his nose...really clever little fish 

Apart from that, yesterday I saw some poop coming out from the discus, half stringy half black and he seemed to be in pain while passing it as he was pacing until it came out. But at least there's some food moving through his gut. I also tried daphnia yesterday but he wasn't interested. So back on blood worms, I figured that if I cut them in half he's able to swallow them. I also think that yesterday evening he had brightened up a notch as I was able to see the stress lines clearly where a couple of days ago he was almost black. I think he was once upon a time a yellow fish with blue on the fins. But to be honest, he is so poor looking still, its unreal that he's alive.

There he is as of yesterday


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## mort (16 Apr 2019)

I don't know if you've seen them but tmc gamma foods have a mini bloodworm. I haven't used it for a few years but it was really good for small mouths.


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## sciencefiction (16 Apr 2019)

I dont think I've seen them locally.


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## sciencefiction (16 Apr 2019)

I had some success with mysis shrimp this evening. So for now I'll alternate these with the blood worms.

There's been no change in the discus appearance, fins are still clamped, stress bars, the lot but he's living and eating...for now. I just saw him explore the tank a bit, slowly sort of but the tank is small so nothing much to explore. If the discus ever gets better, I'll have to think of alternative environment but for now the hopes are really low, considering his extremely bad state.

The betta claimed back the "feeding corner". He's persistently stayed there even while I feed the discus, so the discus stays a bit further back now. I gotta stretch my hand, lol. Unlike the discus, the betta is really perky and active and acts happy although there's quite the dose of meds inside. I think he's liking the flow of frozen foods a lot.

I'll keep the meds in for about 8 days then perhaps stop for a while, just clean water, and evaluate. I am thinking, if I see no improvement in a week or so, I'll have to try taking a scrape and see if I find something but he's so weak now, the stress of that may kill him, although whatever he's got is obviously killing him slowly...


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## obsessed (16 Apr 2019)

hi
Have you tried frozen prawns or any veg,fruit, I take my hat off to you. Proper zen.
 Cheers


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## sciencefiction (16 Apr 2019)

Thanks. I don't even know why I took that fish on, something just made me do it. I see tons of sick fish in fish shops...

Yes, I can try other stuff.  It crossed my mind to introduce something vegetable like but he needs tiny little pieces. Today I was pulling the heads of the mysis shrimp only, that's the max size he can take. He won't take any hard food either, no matter the size.
I am hoping that if he puts on some weight, he'll eventually be able to eat proper food. I have high quality pellets, and bunch of other stuff but he's picky now and can't swallow too much at a time. For now I am concentrated on making him eat as much as possible.


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## obsessed (16 Apr 2019)

I get it, I really do. It will all work out, it sounds like you know what your doing. I was told by an old hand that fish will always eat strawberries when sick like dogs eat grass ? maybe so or just a tale.
cheers


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## sciencefiction (16 Apr 2019)

Never heard about strawberries...I can try, what's stopping me 

I am not as hopeful about it working out to be honest. It's just that in order for that fish to still be alive being in such a state, then even the stress of being moved in a plastic bag and all, which I didn't think it would survive,  it must have a will to live, so all I can do is try to help a soul in need.


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## obsessed (17 Apr 2019)

And you have the will to help. 
Hope it works out for him, I'm sure you will let us know


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## sciencefiction (17 Apr 2019)

obsessed said:


> And you have the will to help.
> Hope it works out for him, I'm sure you will let us know



I hope so too mate. Sure, I'll record the failure or success.

This evening the discus ate every bit without much spitting. I also saw him passing a poop, looked black but was still hanging.
And the best part is that he's developing a bit of a belly. He was as thin as crisp a few days ago so I think that's something at least. 
The overall appearance is the same though, top fin is still clamped, stress bars, etc..However, I've had a good look and whatever I can see from the fins is intact, no fin rot or anything. Also, I can't see any external damage on the body.

I also noticed the betta tends to intimidate him at feeding time as he just won't go away from the feeding spot. They're like two dogs and I am in between, both going for the food. Eventually the discus gave up to the "boss"  but not before he had quite a few bloodworms....If I forgot for a second that they're just fish I would have thought the discus stepped away when he was full and let the betta take his turn..


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## obsessed (17 Apr 2019)

A few good signs. the clamped fin could be just new enviroment and conditions. hopefully


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## sciencefiction (17 Apr 2019)

He had clamped fins in the shop, for the entire week I saw him there. I've never seen his top fin yet just bits and pieces of blue color. 
In fairness, even if he lives, he may not look too well ever again.


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## obsessed (17 Apr 2019)

I actually prefer the runt sometimes, they tend to have more character.
Back to the pond,your lily's are perfect.


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## sciencefiction (18 Apr 2019)

Thanks. I actually bought an Arum lily two weeks ago. It is currently in the tub that was supposed to house the discus and it has grown massively in this short amount of time. It looks like a smaller type of lily, lighter color and seems to love growing out of water. I still haven't received the new filter and the old run has not run since last Friday so now the tank isn't quite cycled and I can't risk it with a sick fish. The cherry shrimp in it seem fine somehow..living in still water and just plants to help.



obsessed said:


> I actually prefer the runt sometimes, they tend to have more character.



The discus is definitely not without a character  It would have been easier if he was more impersonal rather than staring at me with his large eyes. He seems very observant and is constantly watching both me and the betta.  I also think the two fish are getting used to each other and apart from feeding time, they get on fine.

I am starting to have doubts that I am torturing a fish beyond repair. I am sure majority of people would have culled it but same as the fish, I don't give up that easily. I am thinking that if he lived to get to that state, there's a will so who am I to question it. I know fish can die very quickly for a lot less stress and disease. 

 There's no easy way to catch a fresh sample of his poop but I am itching to microscope him....It just won't happen without catching the fish and it is not a good idea with an already stressed fish.

I am going to pass by the shop this evening and ask some questions. In fairness, all the other discus in their tank look good and they're not connected to the central system. The other discus are actually very large good looking fish. Also, there are a few other fish in the same tank that are in good order. I just never asked about the sick discus back history as I didn't want to play the  blame game. They've been very nice to me over the years and do their best, one of the few fish shops that survived the crisis.  The sick discus may have been from a previous batch of discus. I am surprised that the shop just left the fish live despite its state...I don't even know what age it is about....


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## obsessed (18 Apr 2019)

The arum,calla lily is the 1 in my sig.

Your fish and peace lily remind me of my pot of lily's. I bought the peace lily as a gift for my mother in law, it was 1 plant with a single flower, her skills at looking after any indoor plant were zero, 2 years later i saw the poor plant kind of shriveled and 1 leaf dropped over, needless to say i rescued it and still have it 24 years on. its grown a bit.


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## sciencefiction (18 Apr 2019)

Well, not so good news today. 

The discus was sulking all day staying on one spot and refusing the food in the morning. 

I decided to take the deworming meds out and did a very large water change. He stood on one spot during the entire process which frankly took me hours using the bucket method as I don't want to use my python...Good exercise I am telling ya But the fish is obviously stressed. 

So I am worried of course....not that I expected miracles...

I spoke to the shop owner today after work. He said they had had the discus for 3 weeks and he came in sick with the rest of the discus looking good. I've seen them myself and they do look good... They treated all discus as a preventative with a round of Esha hexamita and internal bacterial just in case. This guy is the only one that did not take to it but he said that if I've seen the sick discus poop black "I've turned him around", presuming he pooped white stringy poop, so he was sounding hopeful..

My treatment was with flubendazole so between the shop and myself, we've sort of covered both protozoa and worms and some bacterial, although I don't quite think myself the issue has ever been bacterial but bacteria is very often secondary to a heavy parasitic infection.  I think he's a fish that was overwhelmed by either worms of protozoa and was left to slowly starve to death. From here on I think it's up to himself and it depends on the organ damage done so far.

While I was in the shop, I also reluctantly grabbed frozen beefheart balance that also contains vitamins,spinach, etc..I know long term beef heart gives discus fatty liver but right now I want to try anything he's willing to gobble and that can put some weight on him and it was also the advise by the owner. 

So to make me feel good spending hours on him this week, and both the discus and myself sulking today,everyone for their own reasons,  he actually just took a few bits of the beef heart I bought, not much but it is at least something as he hadn't eaten all day....


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## sciencefiction (18 Apr 2019)

I just went in again and gave him another bit of the beef heart food. It is messy I must admit. At least he took quite a few bits of it while the rest polluted the tank...Now, if there was a clown loach in there, lol...


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## sciencefiction (18 Apr 2019)

And away from fish for a second, the below is the Arum Lily. I wish I had taken a picture when I got it less than two weeks ago. It was in piss poor state. It's growing like a weed and all those higher leaves are new.


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## sciencefiction (18 Apr 2019)

I actually forgot to say the most important part of me removing the deworming meds..... I've decided to up the temps up to 32-34C to kill possible protozoa as what they used in the fish shop may not be good enough, plus force the discus to eat more.  So that's a risk I am taking, considering the betta, but at least he can breathe if the oxygen levels dip down....but I am yet to find out if he can cope with those temps...although I sort of expect him to be able to.


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## sciencefiction (19 Apr 2019)

Temperature now is nearly 33C, max on my Chinese heater... Both fish are taking it well enough, including the betta.
There's no change in stress level of the discus, he's as stressed as always, lol. 

He just took a few bits of "cow" food, still picking on it not so eagerly but it is softer food so it seems easier for him to swallow. It is definitely his favourite food so far. He actually refused to take on any mysis shrimp after the first attempt. He'll only eat the bloodworms and the beafheart. 

 I am going to have to keep the temperature up for 4-5 days. If there's any protozoa infestations lurking that should kill them. However, my previous experience with high temperature was limited to a clown loach who was ravenously hungry at around 31.5C when treated for ich. 

I hope I don't stress the betta unnecessary but he seems ok, swimming around as always. He does not like the discus food though and a good anti-parasite treatment will do him good too. He looks good for the experience.I also think the fish do like each other now and are not so hostile or afraid of each other anymore.

It will be a bit difficult with the water change tonight I guess. I'll just use the same thermometer.


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## Conort2 (19 Apr 2019)

As long as the fish is eating you've got quite a good chance. Beefheart wont be an issue for now, it will give it more of a chance to bulk up than the bloodworm.

The dark poo is also a good sign, fingers crossed you've cleared it of any parasites.

Cheers

Conor


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## sciencefiction (19 Apr 2019)

Thanks Conor.

I just checked on the temperature and it is 33.8 C.   Both fish are ok,....for now.  I think max temp I'll let is 34C. The heater max is 33C but is also very warm outside.

Yes, the discus keeps picking on food, which is a miracle considering its state but his appetite is poor. He certainly likes the beef heart best though...Right now its probably a good thing.

I do think he's slightly better than when I got him. I was looking at his gills and they don't seem so swollen anymore. Yes, the last couple of times he pooped it was black.He stayed in a heavy dose of flubendazole for 6 days. Flubendazole is also effective against protozoa but meds can mostly reach the gut. I am hoping the temperature will kill the rest, but not the fish of course. Yeah, I am a bit weary now looking at the thermometer.....


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## sciencefiction (19 Apr 2019)

A couple of more pics

The new lily is on steroids. I've never seen such growth in a plant...You can see some of the clay pebbles floating. It takes weeks for them to stay in the basket....very annoying but once they settle its a great substrate.




 

The crypt in the other tub is going to flower again.


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## sciencefiction (19 Apr 2019)

And I took a pic of the discus when he moved to a brighter spot. I don't know if its from the picture but I am seeing tiny bit more color compared to the previous time I took the picture on the same spot.


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## cdelly (19 Apr 2019)

Just read the whole lot, love clown loaches. they are great characters and will get some when swmbo allows me to have an indoor pond as well.

the dedication to get mr discus right, is outstanding 

I have to stop looking for ill fish or i'd have approx 50 tanks


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## sciencefiction (19 Apr 2019)

Thanks cdelly.

I should have not taken on a sick fish but here it is, and he's the most hopeless case I've seen...apart from reviving a dead fish.


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## obsessed (20 Apr 2019)

sciencefiction said:


> The new lily is on steroids. I've never seen such growth in a plant..


The lily looks good. I have 2 big terracotta pots outside full. I cut them down in June after flowing to nothing and they start to come back in  late jan- Feb. Heavy feeders.
Cheers


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## sciencefiction (20 Apr 2019)

Thanks OB.

That lily seems to have grown more in 2 weeks than the peace lilies in a year...I can notice the difference every day....amazing...The clay pebbles in the basket were actually in the pond for a long time until one day I took it out as the plants inside it didn't make it(ferns of some sort). So they must hold some sort of nutrients still.  Unfortunately I took out a kuhli loach with it too and found it dried out only recently, inside the basket, which I had left hanging on a chair to dry out.

Today the temp in Mr. Discus tank has been steady between 33.3 and 33.5C

On a negative side, I think he's stressed and the overall situation is not good looking.  He's hovering on one spot and will not chase food. I did read that loss of appetite during heat treatment is actually the case with even way healthier discus but in his condition that could be detrimental as he's too skinny. The stationary position is probably also normal as they apparently decrease activity to regulate the body temperature. I've already started the heat treatment and if I stop too early I may cause even bigger problems if parasites are left as they first multiply rapidly then they supposedly die off completely around the 4 day mark.I think around Monday evening I'll start turning the heat down, bit by bit. I really hope the fish lives through that ordeal.....

On a positive note, today I noticed that his lips/mouth have recovered. He had white lips, not rotting but more like a fish that had rubbed their nose and peeled the skin off. All his mouth/nose appeared white about a week ago when I got him. I did have a close look at the time I noticed and didn't see any rotting so I wasn't alarmed. However, this now seems gone and recovery of the mouth means that at least some tissue is regenerating.

The betta is tolerating the heat well.... I also think he's empathizing with the discus as he goes to him and gently nudges him from time to time. At least that's what it looks like  It is really odd..he'd just go and put his nose against him.... He's no longer flaring at him either or is acting scared, and sort of hangs around the discus a lot lately...

And surprisingly, there's a shrimp alive in the tank, after the flubendazole and high heat it's a miracle. I hadn't even seen shrimp in the tank in a while.  On another hand, all snails are dead. The flubendazole had them walking out of the tank within the first dose and I dosed for 6 days after that. I removed what climbed out. I haven't seen snails since.


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## obsessed (20 Apr 2019)

The heat will stop them being active so they eat less aswell. The 02 in the water at that temperature is pretty low aswell another reason they conserve energy.
He does sound and look better and the betta,what a guy.
Cheers


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## sciencefiction (20 Apr 2019)

Seriously, what the heck...that plant has grown since yesterday again..Unbelievable...
Two weeks ago it was 1/3rd of its size and beat up. None of these top leaves were there at all..


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## sciencefiction (21 Apr 2019)

So I went out today for a while. I came back and I got a shock as I could not see the discus.

Upon looking around the tank I find him sort of behind the filter, kind of listless. I look at the thermometer and it shows 34.2 C! My hair stood up.. I look for the betta, see him swimming around and catching some invisible stuff...no issues..

So I panicked I fried the discus and did an immediate water change to drop the temp down to 32C. Panic is no good....but what would one do?...Then I dropped the heater down to 30C to allow the rest to drop slower. I see the discus at the bottom behind the plants...He never stayed at the bottom before...I left him be for a while.

So not long ago I check again, no discus. I panicked he's dead somewhere. I search and search and I can't find him. I switched off the filter and started poking around with my bare hands to maybe feel the body. There's a tick blob of peace lily roots in one corner... At some stage he pops in right into my hands. I nearly squished him.  He looks weak but alive. However, surprisingly, he was not dark. He had the bars but he was orange/yellow sort of color, the lightest I've seen him so far. 

Well, I don't know if he'll survive. I dropped the temp a bit further down to 30C and will keep it there at least for another while as it is not a critical temp, perhaps even almost normal range for discus although I think 28C is idea.  What happens next only time will tell.

Betta had no negative issues whatsoever withstanding these high temperatures by the way...


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## obsessed (21 Apr 2019)

Have you been cleaning those leaves with milk
It's always when you try and help they do something  stupid.


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## sciencefiction (21 Apr 2019)

obsessed said:


> Have you been cleaning those leaves with milk
> It's always when you try and help they do something  stupid.



Which leaves?


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## sciencefiction (21 Apr 2019)

Oh, sorry, the lily you mean?

I have not touched it. They're glossy naturally it seems.


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## obsessed (21 Apr 2019)

Nice.
Mine are dull outside.


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## sciencefiction (21 Apr 2019)

Is it the same plant?


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## sciencefiction (21 Apr 2019)

These leaves are grown in 2 weeks to perhaps because they're very new...Maybe the'll change as they age.


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## obsessed (21 Apr 2019)

Mine is a Zantedeschia aethiopica.
Looking at them the new ones are shiny.


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## sciencefiction (21 Apr 2019)

I believe mine is the exact same plant as that's what was written on the label.
Yeah, the leaves are glossy because they're fairly new and the plant exploded with growth. I had done about several 100% water changes on that tub but the clay pebbles I used for substrate were "charged" from being in the pond for a long time before I took them out. Clown loach poop=glossy plants, lol


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## sciencefiction (22 Apr 2019)

Sad news to report guys.
The discus is dead. I managed to kill him  

I think he was already dead yesterday but because the body stood up in straight up position I got confused he's still alive. Today I saw no gill movement so I picked him up, very dead

I actually just finished a microscope session. I found nothing on the gill sample. I took a sample of the intestine and I think what I saw was a dead capilaria worm. Apart from that, there wasn't much of anything that was moving. I think I nuked the most parasites.....and the fish in the process.  However, I saw 3 oval shaped things that were dead but looked like a bug. They were oval in shape, with a "seed" in the middle of the shape of almond. I don't know what they're but they were dead.  I may have seen one thing moving, unless it was my eyes playing tricks at staring at the thing but whatever I saw was really small, too small to see what it was, and was moving too fast...It was pretty much one or two bugs the most, so generally the samples were rather clear of life forms.  

As for the discus, a sad story. I may have contributed to its death but I tried and and if I was ever being objective about the situation I think he was too far gone. I was just being unrealistically hopeful something can be done. It's one of those experiences that will haunt me for a long time now...but I called for it.


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## sciencefiction (22 Apr 2019)

On a positive note, footage of the betta trying to eat my fingers.


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## cdelly (22 Apr 2019)

you gave it a try, more than most would have done.


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## Mark bowen (22 Apr 2019)

Hats off to you for trying , as said previously not many would have bothered


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## sciencefiction (22 Apr 2019)

Thanks guys. Right now...in my head I keep rolling the moment when the poor thing was coming to me to be fed. Life/death....such a thin line between them.


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## sciencefiction (22 Apr 2019)

I am thinking I need another distraction and I may finally put a fish in my other 80 liters tub that houses the Arum Lily. There's just anubias, some sand and cherry shrimp in there right now. I removed all the bacopa. It had grown a tick layer of several inch as a floater over the last summer and winter, now removed bar 2 stalks. I think a pair of small cichlids would do me good for a change and I might make it black water. I just don't know what fish I'll get. 

And I'll continue with the Arum Lily series, grown again over the weekend. I wonder how big will it get...There are new leaves on that picture by the way that are now fully opened...and several underneath that can't be yet seen..


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## sciencefiction (24 Apr 2019)

I was checking my mails and the filter delivery for the other plastic tub is delayed. I ordered one of the classic eheim filters from a German website.

I went to check on the Arum Lily and I looked at the old filter, which is still sitting in the tank not running, and there are Californian Blackworms sticking out from all over it, very happy looking, feeding on the decaying stuff in the filter, although I had given it a really good clean, lol. 

I hope you're not eating your dinner,


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## sciencefiction (28 Apr 2019)

So doing water changes lately, and observing the plant pot in the pond in which I found a baby kuhli loach I am now convinced a lot more loaches are hiding in there. The disturbing part is that at each water change that basket gets fully drained of water and it may take 30-40 minutes before water level goes back up...They seem to survive being out of the water in between the clay pebbles. It is sort of scary...but they do. 

The betta is showing me his new bubble nest


 

And the Lily is not so happy anymore, some old leaf die off and the newest ones are smaller


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## sciencefiction (28 Apr 2019)

sciencefiction said:


> So doing water changes lately, and observing the plant pot in the pond in which I found a baby kuhli loach I am now convinced a lot more loaches are hiding in there. The disturbing part is that at each water change that basket gets fully drained of water and it may take 30-40 minutes before water level goes back up...They seem to survive being out of the water in between the clay pebbles. It is sort of scary...but they do.



In relation to the same, I found the below video of a kuhli loach deciding to get out of the water on its own accord....Is there something I am missing about these fish?


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## sciencefiction (1 May 2019)

What a crazy plant. It wants to sit on the chair...
The lower leaves are now fighting for some light too...

.


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## sciencefiction (6 May 2019)

I still have not received the filter that was intended for my other tub but I managed to get the old one going, finally...Shrimp were ok though, no losses at all being in still water tank for weeks but it's not like I fed them anything.

Also, there's a few shrimp in the betta tank so it is interesting to note they have survived the 34C heat....So far I've seen them survive temps as low as 12C and as high as 34C, some inverts...Even most tropical snails can't do that....Malaysians for example don't do well in low temps..

The arum lily has overtaken all the surface of that tub now....

Maybe it should go to my pond if I find some room in a well lit area but the pond is now really overgrown as the second parlor palm I saved from my window sill has adapted and has taken off... I think they may choke the peace lily in there if I am not careful. 

I did a 80% water change yesterday on the tub and I swear that plant has responded. I think turning on a filter for water movement has had positive effect too...In comparison to this arum lily, the peace lilies are total snails growth wise... The arum lily is actually choking its own bottom leaves now because of both scarce light and nitrogen.


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## cdelly (6 May 2019)

Be careful it doesn't grow into this one lol



Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## sciencefiction (6 May 2019)

Ha,ha. It's getting there...


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## sciencefiction (9 May 2019)




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## sciencefiction (9 May 2019)

And time for the pond, going mental. I expect it to grow really well now in the summer with the sunshine being through that window every other day or so. I really need ceiling lights during the winter ideally to get the best of the plants as they do tend to turn towards the window, so the back side I can't picture is the most beautiful one. Fish are really healthy and boisterous in there.


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## sciencefiction (11 May 2019)

A video from today..The temperature has been showing above 27C lately and I wonder if one of my heaters has given way as they're both set to 26C. It's been very warm outside though but not anywhere near those temperature....I probably need to switch one off...


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## sciencefiction (16 May 2019)

The Arum Lily got itself a nitrogen source..

I finally added a fish to that tub. It's been running for 2 years now I think with nothing...

It's a weather loach...I think I never deliberated so much over a fish, lol... I went back to the shop several times and gave up each time as there were a few of them just sitting doing nothing, and not responding to any human presence. The gold fish were so much more fun....But the tub is small, holds only 80 litres and I thought I'd get it and see how it goes..

So here she is. It's a girl. I took the video in the first few minutes of adding her so she's a bit upset but she was really interested in sifting the sand, knocking a few snails and moving between the pots. There's shrimplets, live black worms and I added some pellets as well. I'll see how it goes. My idea is to one day consolidate my 3 cold water tanks into a large one which I have been delaying only out of laziness for moving fish tanks, etc..


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## sciencefiction (17 May 2019)

So it seems, the loach is getting on well...although it is early to tell.
She's already managed eating lots of baby snails, chasing the shrimp and sucking out black worms out of the filter sides as they seem to breed well in there...So I won't bother feeding for a few days. 
I hope I don't lose it to jumping as I have no intention of having a cover and I already saw the loach almost walking on top of the internal filter...The water level is low now because the clay pebbles in the Arum lily basket are still not fully saturated and they would all come out if I fill the tub..It takes quite a few weeks/months to get them fully saturated. I sometimes put stones on top...

A short video below. It's a poor video I warn you. The loach appears into the 20 second mark under the basket. 



I also got the filter I ordered, the Eheim classic but I think I'll put it in my hillstream loach tank instead because I don't think I'll need it for one weather loach...Surely the hillstream loaches won't mind.


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## sciencefiction (19 May 2019)

I did some pond re-arrangements today. I moved all the driftwood more into the middle close the the clown loaches and I saved the crinum calamistratum which is the only plant the fish didn't eat but it's been dying slowly. It never got enough light.  It is now in the hillstream loach tank to see if it will recover in more light and flow.

The bristlenose pleco was quite upset but I think he settled again somewhere on the wood..
The clowns on another hand and the rest of the fish seem excited over the re-arrangement..


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## LfcFan1977 (27 May 2019)

I'm nearly half way through this journal and really enjoying it.


sciencefiction said:


> If I ever have to catch them again, which I did 5 times during this last year, I am going to have to get inside this tank. There's no catching other wise...no corners to be cornered into  And I think they know it already....


You could try using a tube/pipe. Worked well for me last time I had to move my Clown's.
I have a two foot length of drain pipe that's used as a cave. Blocked off both ends, lifted it out of the water and transferred it to the new tank. No worries about getting their barbs stuck in a net.
Copied this idea:



From here:
http://aquagastro.blogspot.com/2007/03/clown-loach-chromobotia-macracanthus.html


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## sciencefiction (27 May 2019)

The last time nearly 3 years ago I took out some while they were still in their tubes and the rest I caught with a big jug. If I have to catch them from the pond I may try your idea in the hopes they'll go into those pipes.


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## LfcFan1977 (27 May 2019)

If you ever plan a move for them, then put the tubes in a few days before. You know what Clowns are like, they won't be able to resist them


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## sciencefiction (27 May 2019)

Thanks mate. The only time I've had to move them was when the 2 tanks they had been prior to the pond leaked. I hope I don't need to move them any time soon but it may need to happen in a few years if things go to plan. Until then I hope they stay put where they are, and of course I hope they live and I don't kill them via other means.


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## LfcFan1977 (29 May 2019)

I'm all caught up now. I've enjoyed reading every page of this journal. Fellow Clown lover.
You're very humble but actually very attentive, observant, caring, knowledgeable, methodical and inspiring.
Your pond is great.The emersed growth is huge and making me re-think the plans I have for the filtration on my next Clown Loach home upgrade.
Shame about the Discus. Don't beat yourself up about it though, it was a hell of of a upstream battle and it seemed to be improving. It most likely found you to late .
Can I ask about the Orchid? How's it doing? Are all it's roots submerged constantly in a basket of clay balls in the pond? The four potted ones I have are fed and watered for an hour each week, then drained but aren't flowering again like they have previously.


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## sciencefiction (29 May 2019)

Thanks mate. It's really nice of you to say that.

Yes, shame about the discus.I still think of it. 

The orchid was not placed into the clay pebbles, just on top as I noticed it roots would rot if planted. It was surviving and growing some actually but not thriving. It actually had a flowering stalk on a constant basis that never opened. I was about to take it out one of these days and plant it properly in a pot when I found it fallen in the tank and shredded to bits....Guess who the culprits were....

The emersed plants are doing their job and I am hooked on them as an addition to a tank. I can't really say enough how well it works for the fish as they appear really healthy and vibrant. It's probably the best thing I ever did for the fish. 

The new weather loach has also been doing great in his Arum lily tub.It was almost a stationary fish in the shop the several times I checked before I bought it, to the point of me asking if those fish are normally like that. He hasn't stopped moving since. It's been really active. I even caught him digging inside the clay pebbles basket.


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## LfcFan1977 (29 May 2019)

Thanks, I won't try that with our Orchids, I'm struggling to get them flowering again as it is.
I need to go back and look at the emersed plants you've got (memory like a fish) and decide what's going in my plans.


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## sciencefiction (31 May 2019)

So today some sort of bad news for me, at least for one of my Peace Lilies. 
It seems like the 34C I maintained in the betta tank for the sick discus didn't come without consequences and the peace lily has been rotting for a while it seems. I don't know for how long but it is really odd how the plant communicated that by dropping all it's leaves flat/horizontal. It was always straight up and growing really well and I've had it in there for many years, lots of the roots are in the actual substrate....Well, I don't know if it will make it. I cut out all the rot, a lot of it around the crown plus entire leaf stalks rotting from the crown. I've had this peace lily for 6 years now. 

I took some pictures of the Arum Lily which is suffocating itself for light.........But it's an amazing plant, a real fast grower. I hope it flowers soon. I think it's showing a bit of deficiencies, leaves getting lighter and there was an old leaf that died so perhaps not enough nitrogen. I may drop a bit more fish food as I haven't fed that much. It seems the loach is catching live food, hence his spunky attitude...and slightly rounded belly. The shrimp population does seem to be diminishing and I had tons of black worms in there which I can't see anymore when I stir up. I think someone has been up to overfeeding herself big time...









 


And here is the very active loach who was all around my hands at water change time. She loves that plant pot and the filter, in and out, also digging inside the plant pot getting all the clay pebbles out.... She also loves going into the glass jars I have at the bottom...a very playful fish indeed. She's actually really shiny, golden sort of color. I couldn't capture it on picture yet.


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## sciencefiction (14 Jun 2019)

Well, posting to mention that I definitely killed the several years old lily with the high temperatures of up to 34C a few weeks back I treated the discus with.  It did not make it, it slowly melted, only that I noticed a bit too late but it is now gone out of the tank as of last weekend. Thankfully the betta is ok. 
The entire crown went mush....

As a replacement, I now have a small Arum lily in a hanging clay pebble pot. The betta is really liking the "high ground" as the surface of it is just an inch below water....

The weather loach is dong really well in there so far. I am not feeding him every day as I think he's still munching on the many live black worms and possibly shrimp and small snails. He seems like a really interesting fish by the way but he still does not like me much


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## alto (15 Jun 2019)

sciencefiction said:


> he still does not like me much


you need ~ 6 more 
they’re as social as most loaches but at 10inches or so at maturity, will obviously need a much larger home 

Commiserations on the Lily Loss


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## sciencefiction (22 Jun 2019)

Hey alto, yes, I totally agree.

The loach will need a bigger home and wasn't the best choice for that tub. Only that the tub stayed fishless for so long and I wanted a cold water loach again but something different than hillstream loaches...at the same time it had to be a loach and it had to be a bottom feeder...lol....So I thought one weather loach for now maybe ok but it is not ok long term for the fish.....as much as I want it to be.

By the way, if you remember my beaufortia hillstreams that I complained didn't grow a good while ago.... They're still not grown much, if that's the species I have at all as they seem to be doing good in that overgrown with crypts planted tank for 3 years now, and I am almost convinced that it is a good environment for hillstreams in general to keep them in a high flow low tech tank,apart from the tank being barely 60 litres. But they're on their own in there with the cherry shrimp.

If I remove laziness from the equation, and I remove my 2 cold water tubs from my small fish room, I'll have room for a 300 litre, perhaps 4 foot tank... which I thought about for a good while...  I am only worried about the biological disturbance as that involves my hillstream loaches, and even my californian black worms population in their tank, etc...That's putting me off right now as I have the "blue" tub really stable now and the loaches have established a hierarchy after more than a year, not fighting anymore and the tank seems to be now running stable, the bad algae gone with the same amount of light. And the loaches are healthy and feeding on what I give them.

Having said all that gibberish, I love the weather loach experience so far and she will need more room. I thought of at least getting her a male for company but they've been selling only females lately...However, she seems very entertained in there for some reason. Hyper active fish.

By the way, lights went off but the Arum Lily in the weather loach tank has grown humongous leaves...I'll take a picture when I can.


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## sciencefiction (6 Sep 2019)

Time flies. Time for a little update...

I came back from a 3 week holiday last weekend, having left the fish to their own devices.
To cut the long story short, I had some evaporation issues with the warmest tanks, particularly the betta tank and the pond.
I also have one very thin SAE, which had always been the runt of the pack, and was picked on when younger so I have kept an eye since. It never grew the same as the rest...and now it is extremely thin. But since the rest of the fish look plump enough, I think it might be worms as well so I dosed Kusuri just in case and I'll see how that goes. I'll feed a bit more now for a while and drop some veg although the competition for food is fierce. I hope he fills out as he's such a friendly and happy looking fish otherwise. As for the clowns, no issues that I saw and they've been yapping at me every morning since I came back, haven't forgotten how to beg with noses out of the surface.

Unfortunately, I am not seeing some hillstream loaches in one of the hillstream loach tanks so some unaccounted for yet in there. I am not sure if they're hiding or they're dead and decomposed. It happened once in my other hillstream tank, when I thought some were dead until a few months later I saw them. I think they lose the habit of coming out for food when they're not fed daily for a while...

The dojo loach on another hand looks like she's been snacking on all the surviving cherry shrimp and black worms, not a bother, looks great and active. The betta's tank had almost half the water only, filter just barely working but he's a trooper and has perked up since. He also doesn't look to have lost much if any weight although not fed for 3 weeks. I hope the starvation period doesn't affect his long term health.


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## sciencefiction (6 Oct 2019)

sciencefiction said:


> I also have one very thin SAE, which had always been the runt of the pack, and was picked on when younger so I have kept an eye since. It never grew the same as the rest...and now it is extremely thin.



Just to update on that. The thin SAE has packed some weight and it seems perfectly fine, although still the smallest of the bunch but that won't change.

The crypt in a pot is constantly throwing flowers, looking happy although a lot of the leaves end up outside the water looking a bit sorry for themselves, hence the green colour instead of purplish. The crypt looks better under water. 




 



sciencefiction said:


> Unfortunately, I am not seeing some hillstream loaches in one of the hillstream loach tanks so some unaccounted for yet in there. I am not sure if they're hiding or they're dead and decomposed.



Hillstreams appeared back. It seems that when they're not fed for a prolonged period of time such as a 3 week holiday, they lose the habit of coming for food. This has happened to me in the 2 hillstream tanks over the years. It's something to keep in mind with new hillstream loaches. These fish are a bit stupid 

And the latest from the clowns for the record. Nothing changes much in there.


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## dw1305 (6 Oct 2019)

Hi all, 





sciencefiction said:


> The crypt in a pot is constantly throwing flowers,


Do you know what you bought the _Cryptocoryne_ as? You might be <"able to identify it from the flower">, and that would give us some idea if the two names coincide. I'll @Mick.Dk, he is most likely to know.

cheers Darrel


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## sciencefiction (6 Oct 2019)

dw1305 said:


> Do you know what you bought the _Cryptocoryne_ as?



I bought it as cryptocoryne beckettii petchii. I only have that crypt in all tanks that have crypts, grown from the same one plant I got about 7 years ago, and I have the in vitro version which looks rather different.


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## sciencefiction (6 Oct 2019)

I think it looks about right, I found it on the link you posted.

https://crypts.home.xs4all.nl/Cryptocoryne/Gallery/bec/bec.html


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## sciencefiction (6 Oct 2019)




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## sciencefiction (20 Oct 2019)

We had an electricity issue over the weekend, there wasn't any for over 12 hours or so. I got worried but there was nothing I could do for the time being. I actually didn't notice any stress at all, although with fish one never knows for sure as the effect is always delayed. I did do quite large water changes after the event just in case so I hope that will be it.

A video focusing mainly on the denison barbs and harlequin rasboras.


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## rebel (21 Oct 2019)

Wow those Torpedo barbs look primo! Are they dear in the UK? Here in Australia they are about $100 per piece.


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## DeepMetropolis (21 Oct 2019)

Are you serious, here in the Netherlands they cost around 13usd. I believe that it would not be far from what they ask in the UK..


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## sciencefiction (21 Oct 2019)

They cost 12-13 euro here but I got them from the local shop on a deal 3 years ago, about 5-er each. They were colorless juveniles back then and weren't attracting much attention in the shop.


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## rebel (21 Oct 2019)

DeepMetropolis said:


> Are you serious


Yes quite serious. They are almost impossible to find in shops because they are almost the same price as good discus. Low sales probably because most people can't afford em. 

Anyways back on topic.


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## sciencefiction (2 Nov 2019)

I have an arcadia stretch LED light that I use over my hillstream loach tank. A few weeks back it failed, flashing intermittently.  So the tank ran only on the Qube 50 LED these few weeks because I was being lazy purchasing another light. I was going to buy another Qube 50 as I quite like them.....

 At some stage I thought it is a good idea to send an email to the shop where I purchased the Arcadia light, which is an online German shop called Aquaristicshop.com. I then forgot about the email and I didn't hear anything back from them until yesterday, when a brand new light arrived in the post  It was about 2 weeks after the email I sent them.  It was so nice of them to honour the warranty although the product was already out of warranty by about half a year.  I have purchased a few items from that shop over the years as their prices are really good and it is nice to know their after sales service is also good. 

So I am back to growing algae  For the few weeks on lower light the moss actually started fading and changing its visual structure, also becoming leggy and detaching from the wood, again providing anecdotal evidence that it does better in higher light conditions which I had noticed before. My moss is Taiwan moss so it perhaps is species dependent but it grows really well in high light. The crypts didn't suffer much but have not flowered since....

I also forgot to mention perhaps, or maybe I did, that a few months back I transferred my Crinum Calamistratum in the hillstream tank right under the light. I have had that plant for many years never liking any of the tanks its been planted in but kept staying alive. It survived the clown loach and barb decimation I experienced a couple of years back when they brought all the anubias down to stubs, and it is the only plant fish won't touch at all to eat.  Since putting it under high light conditions in the hillstream tank it has taken off which is really nice to see. What a tough plant I hadn't manage to kill for about 8 years perhaps, never really growing until now  I am happy to see it happy and it will surely appreciate getting its light back again.


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## sciencefiction (3 Dec 2019)

Some boring pics.

First my betta using his tail as an anchor looking at me just after a water change. Notice how he folds the tail to hold on to the ancient filter in both pictures in different scenarios...



 

 

Then the the hillstream loach tub that got overrun by algae, which I thought is quite beautiful. It's pearling too.


 

Then below is my hydrophilla growing from the betta tub which has fully adapted to air.



 

The big Arum Lily below which gets snipped regularly as it just overshadows 2 tubs when it gets out of hand.


 

And a bit of the pond



 

And a picture of the local river below which came out like a drawing


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## Andy Thurston (21 Dec 2019)

Hi Sci-fi glad to see this still going


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## sciencefiction (21 Dec 2019)

Hi Andy,

Thank you.

It is still going as fish are still gong on  the same as ever

Problem is, I have nothing to contribute because nothing literally changes


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## sciencefiction (17 Jan 2020)

I've been thinking, this is the time of the year that I normally get very excited about fish, when the other side of life has calmed down but not this year....total disinterest on my part. I haven't even looked at the fish tanks properly in quite a while, in fact for months, apart from when I uploaded a video or a picture....I am losing a bit of interest and for the first time(or second time  in a decade slacking on water changes  I feel bad. I had quite a few times skipping the weekly one making it a bi-weekly water change, and a smaller one at that as I was lazy waiting.  Plus the boiler I use for heated water for the fish tanks blew up too and had to be replaced, which only fed my laziness further during that time because had an excuse... No need to say again I feel bad 

I can't even say right now how the fish are. I only know I do see them at feeding time looking just fine but I haven't counted heads...All those plants growing out of the tanks do help, and even the algae in the hillstream loach tanks . I only know that my first ever hillstreams I got a few years back are still doing quite well in a heavily planted crypt tank. I see them zooming around the glass as it's the only tank I can keep an eye on, because it is in the sitting room. The rest is a guess. But the dojo loach and the betta seem ok and active as they're regular surface swimmers when I approach. I see the clown loaches fighting for my attention every morning as well, but I only see noses as it's dark and I just drop the food. and walk away...I see glimpses of my albino bristlenose which is now 8 or 9 years old. I have no idea what he eats because I rarely target him for food. I even need to buy more fish food because I ran out of the NLS cichlid pellets I always fed the loaches with and they're now on the left overs of Northfin Veggie pellets...which do have plenty of protein but you get the gist...

It's time to straighten up myself and take care of my pet fish


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## three-fingers (18 Jan 2020)

I think we've all been there! I bought a round indoor tub pond to house my growing goldfish after being inspired by this thread...many life distractions happened and it is currently still just being used as a storage box for aquarium related stuff...

I come to this thread for aquatic inspiration sometimes and your last post has made me feel better about my own laziness .  Kinda glad I'm not the only one who let their pearling hair algae grow - "hmmm, I should probably pull that out...but the pearling means it's growing well and is probably good for water conditions, the guppies and snails like it...the oxygen bubbles are kinda pretty...OK I'll leave it for now".

I'm sure your fish are thriving in the environment you've created for them, and hope you get some time to work an and appreciate the pond more soon!


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## sciencefiction (1 Feb 2020)

You know, my other half asked me the other day....."How are the fish doing by the way, you haven't said anything in ages about them...Did any of them die".....

And then I gather my thoughts and I think about it.....none have yet died.....I am doing fine, I just need to do what I have always have done and get back to my routine. 

I have been good since my last post and I have not missed a water change since. and in fact, I had never missed one for more than 2 weeks in the majority of the life of my current fish, except for when I was on holidays for 3 weeks or intentionally testing once or twice but that was several years ago and thankfully some made it. 

The plants have gone wild and are covering 2/3rds of the surface of the pond. I have 2 palms growing now. The one I rescued from the window sill has flourished too, clowns are growing so plenty of nitrogen I guess. The fish, which I observed lately, are

1st: very friendly, noses out of the water for food in the morning. This is clown loaches I am talking about.
2nd hyperactive, out swimming all the time
3rd: playful, quirky and relaxed in their non-disturbed by movements, noises and shadows environment.

If you understand fish behavior, you'd know my 1,2,3 points. There are not very many people that understand animals or fish, even animal or fish keepers. Sorry for being straight with you readers of this boring thread.

And I got them new NLS pellets finally, which they had been fed for most years.  Diet is of utmost importance to fish and NLS hasn't failed me yet.


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## Onoma1 (1 Feb 2020)

Glad to hear that you have reached a point of calm where you can just enjoy your fish.


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## sciencefiction (5 Jun 2020)

Hi everyone. I hope everyone is coping well in this difficult time and keeps their spirit afloat.

I just have a few updates, some negative, some positive.

I lost the betta. I found him dead a few weeks back. I am not sure what was up but I doubt it I could have done much to save him as I hadn't noticed anything wrong. 

I also lost one of the SAEs in the pond. He/she was the one that was weak from purchase, the smallest. He got bullied initially a few years back and was thin on and off. He finally passed away, also a few weeks back, the same time as the betta. May they rest in peace. Like any other pet, I'll always remember them.

On a good note, everyone else is well ant thriving. The clown loaches, harlequin rasboras, my old pleco, all the denisons and the 4 remaining SAEs, The kuhli's are in the betta tank on their own. They too made around 8 years mark so far since purchase, although in reduced number. I remember drying one by accident as he was in a plant basket, another on the floor from a tank bust, etc. None died in the tanks, really tough fish because I moved them around plenty.  I hope they thrive for many more years. The weather loach is also thriving and always hungry. He's got the habit of attacking my fingers for food too, really cute. His lily plant that I featured for a while regrew its leaves many times over. The leaves grow so big that the stalks actually break. I cut them down, new ones grow. The fast growth has been doing great job for the weather loach tub and the shade does good to the anubias that I saved some years back from the pond.

And last but not least, I still have the hillstreams. To be honest, I only like the ones in the sitting room tank, as they have the weirdest way of feeding, picking pellets from the side of the tank, rolling them up onto the glass. I think they were identified as Beaufortia species but they didn't really grow although still dashing around as always.  Maybe I stunted them in a small tank but I think I am doing better than most with these type of fish. They're around 4 years old now.  I think they're doing well in a somewhat non-suitable environment because the tank is constantly overgrown and full of shrimp that make a red carpet over the food. I think someone once told me the hillstreams won't survive as they can't compete for food. I guess they figured it out 

And I still have californian black worms. They seem to do well in my cold water tanks. I don't think any survived the heated betta tank, although I put the most initial load in there. However, both the weather loach and the hillstream loach tank have them as I see them up the siphon when I clean the sand.  So they seem to prefer the cooler water, although it is still over 20 degrees and more, most of the time, although I have no heaters, nor thermometers in  those tanks. 

I haven't taken any recent videos, although I am very eager, as I cracked the screen of my phone and it's no longer water resistant.  So this is a boring post really. I'l be buying one soon to capture my lovely clowns and the pond. The plants are thriving and the baskets are barely holding the weight. They fell a few times.  I need to think of an upgraded, bigger baskets, when they re-open the shops here. 

On a personal note, work has been crazy busy for me during this crisis. I know others would consider that lucky. The previous crisis brought me down to my knees and I had to re-organize my life big time. So people, keep your head above the water. Life doesn't end and we make our own future. Each and everyone of us has the power to do so. I will wish you no luck, as luck doesn't play any role in anything.  Keep safe and keep focused on your goals.


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## sciencefiction (3 Jul 2020)

Hey Guys,

I got my new phone, an upgraded version of my old cracked screen one. I tried to take an underwater video and it would not take it....It shuts down the camera underwater immediately, what the heck.....it was an upgrade, e.g. Samsung S9 for Samsung S20...

I think I'll just sacrifice my old phone for some under water videos because the screen crack is only superficial.
I realize I haven't taken a video of my clowns/denisons/SAEs and harlequin rasboras since last year end 2019 and I'll get that done asap....somehow...because I am as curious as everyone that bothered following this thread 

My feelings go to those that are  in a bad place right now. Please give me a PM and I maybe able to help,


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## sciencefiction (10 Jul 2020)

The long promised video of the pond is below 

As you can see, it's like the fish are stuck in time, hence I wasn't bothered updating as I get annoying showing the same thing.  Nothing has changed and I think that's really important. No stress, no new fish, no messing, no decor re-arrangements, no startling through a glass pane,  plants and filters work sufficiently to cope. You have to consider that the first group of loaches is now over 8 years old, which I had bought as babies,  and a 3 of the others were bought as at least 5 year old ones  2 years ago, I can't remember, but it's probably in the thread somewhere, plus the one I haad bought in about 2013 as a 5 incher who grew the biggest.

Denisons, SAEs and harlequins are featuring too, plus my reclusive pleco who is 9 years old now I think.   

P.S. Sorry about the noise, couldn't be bothered putting music on  I did drop some food to ensure a crowd


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## mort (11 Jul 2020)

That's a fantastic example of what healthy clowns look like when they are looked after properly. My personal group is now down to 3 from 11. Unfortunately I've witnessed a decline in one of the group every so often, it then passes and seemingly another begins the same process (sometimes with a few months between). It's not the best feeling in the world when you lose a couple a year but it didn't start until they reached 25-26 years and the existing ones are pushing their late twenties now. So that's a bit of a sad way of saying yours are still babies so you'll have so much more time to enjoy them


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## sciencefiction (11 Jul 2020)

Wow, 25-26 years is a loooong time to keep a fish alive. I can only dream.


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## mort (12 Jul 2020)

sciencefiction said:


> Wow, 25-26 years is a loooong time to keep a fish alive. I can only dream.



It is but some fish have really long lives. I also have a botia striata that was bought in 1997, it's the one I'm most surprised about tbh. The oldest in the tank is a platydoras costatus that my dad got in 1992. When I looked up how old they get I found someone had one that was 47 and still going. There are numerous others like a silver shark, silver dollar, couple of synodontis and an ancistris, that are all well over twenty that were all rescues. Nothing has been added to the tank for 15 years and it still seems full.
I'm sure hogan or Nelson mentioned once that they had/knew of a cory that was 22.

Given the conditions you keep your clowns in I don't doubt they will live that long.


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## sciencefiction (12 Jul 2020)

Mort, you're making it sound as simple as a life span issue  I hope you're right.  I am glad mine are now happy but I'll have to put in a lot more effort than I already have to get mine to over 20 years old, providing I get there myself. I just finished a 3 hour water change on all tanks. I won't mention that I'd rather sit on the sofa and do nothing instead of cleaning tanks for 3 hours every Sunday


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## mort (13 Jul 2020)

sciencefiction said:


> Mort, you're making it sound as simple as a life span issue



Water changes, food and enough space is all you need for most fish and with clowns you only need to add some company (so you hAve all boxes ticked). I wish there was some magic recipe I could sell and make a fortune from but I've done nothing special tbh.


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## sciencefiction (13 Jul 2020)

Thanks mate. How have you kept your loaches all these years? I would be very interested to know as it's not every day someone has 26+ years of age clowns. 
I know my initial pre-pond 7 clowns went through 2 gushing glass tanks and 3 months in a tub of 80 litres, all in their first 4 year journey with me, before I got the pond. I am lucky I still have them. They deserve the pond.

Another video from today.


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## sciencefiction (17 Jul 2020)

I thought I'd share the weather loach tub. The lily over there is recently cut so the hydrophila is taking over. The hydrophilla  has loved this flood light since I bought it and I can't tell you which part grows out of the loach tab or the one next to it which was the betta tub, now kuhli loach tub. Below the hydrophilla is anubias glabra. 









And the below is from the pond currently.  The 7 year old palm is really high and her sister I put in water a few years later has grown lots too, although not the best picture to show. However, my worry is they totally suffocate the peace lily now....

The picture is not so lush this summer, and  the poor things have been struggling for light. It has not been a lush summer..... right now it is like smog on the sky, is it clouds or what? We were working today on lamps, we bought extra lamps for the first time in years,  and closed the curtains because it was brighter than using window light.


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## sciencefiction (9 Oct 2020)

Hey Everyone.

I really hope everyone is feeling good and is safe.

I had the weirdest experience, on a personal level but it was all about the fish.
Sunday afternoon I went for a snooze and I had a dream about myself and my other half doing a water change on the pond. At some point in my dream I look inside the pond and I panic because all the water had drained, fish were all on dry. Then I wake up from the shock.

I get up, my dog whining to get out, so I get dressed and take her out.
Sunday is the day I actually do water changes on the tanks so I walk into the fish room and start unplugging filters on the pond as I normally do it first. Then I feel my socks get wet through the slippers. I get very anxious because I remember my dream. And I start frantically checking stuff, preying it's not a crack on the pond itself although I know subconsciously it's highly unlikely but I realize it is me being scared from prior experience with the glass tanks cracking.  It turns out that one of my external filters, a 10 years and 9 months old All Pond Solutions one, had started leaking upon me unplugging it.

So I felt lucky, I removed and drained the filter and the issue was solved.  Later I figured I had actually broken one of the locks a few weeks ago when I had cleaned the filter the last time. A whole metal piece came off,  so it's a miracle it didn't leak at some point while it was on. It only started draining the tank when I unplugged it. Miracle filters. They love my fish  I love them.
Overall, it was a really weird experience considering the dream I had....

Being me, I ordered the same APS filter. I don't know why I like them.I know many people don't but I just want to mention that for the 10-11 years I owned that filter I had never changed a part on it and I never greased any of the seals, so it was abused to the max. I have another one that is younger, 7 years old doing just fine. I received the new order in 4 days from UK to Ireland during the Corona virus crisis, so I can't complain at all about that either.

New filter is up now and running. It seems quite a bit more powerful than the nearly 11 years old it replaced.


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## Tim Harrison (9 Oct 2020)

Good to hear from you Scifi, where have you been ?...
Are you sure your Sunday lunch wasn't laced with MDMA ?
Either way, glad it wasn't a disaster and that APS delivered a timely solution


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## sciencefiction (10 Oct 2020)

Tim Harrison said:


> Are you sure your Sunday lunch wasn't laced with MDMA ?


Nope, Tim.On Sundays I am a saint. I barely get time to snooze all day long  



Tim Harrison said:


> Good to hear from you Scifi, where have you been ?...


My mind has been wondering elsewhere but I always get back to where I belong.

P.S.
Glad to hear from you too, Tim. My sincere wishes of health and happiness to you and everyone you care about. I hope life treats you very well.


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## sciencefiction (16 Oct 2020)

sciencefiction said:


> I hope life treats you very well.



Corrected now, apologies Tim


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## sciencefiction (26 Jan 2021)

Hey Everyone,

No pictures today... I just wanted to report all is well. I and my fish crew are doing ok during these difficult times.
The news is that I might be finally moving on to new premises and the future fish room is going to be smaller!! 
It will be enough for the pond but I have to get creative at how to consolidate the 3 cold fish water tanks into one and somehow pile up one small tropical on the side. There is a chance I might have to let go off my hillstream loaches and the dojo loach.

Family calls....Planning is the key...

I am absolutely dreading the move and my fish will hate it....I have forgotten how to catch fish.....
I hope I'll have enough room to keep the cold water fish, if not, I will be happy enough just with the clown loach pond....I suppose...

Below are a couple of really bad attempts at taking a video. Plants have overgrown so much that there isn't enough light.  Fish probably like it...


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## sciencefiction (25 Feb 2021)

Hey Everyone.

We had a power outage the day before yesterday. It was supposed to be out for the day but in the end it was down for only 3 hours.
Fish made it fine I think. I was only really worried about the temperature of the pond but even after those 3 hours it hadn't bulged at all. This pond is like a heater itself, retains its temperature really well.

Here is a video I took literally minutes after the electricity came back with the lights off. I had fed the clowns snails the night before, for the first time ever by the way, as I feel sorry for the snails, and at some point in the video one loach is seen munching on a large shell....I don't think I have baby loaches anymore  I can see my spotted baby loach, who was featured in this thread at some point, who I bought really sick as a baby, looking nice and healthy and grown up.


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## sciencefiction (28 Mar 2021)

I am wondering, as I am doing a bit of planning in my head, if it is a bad idea to put my weather loach with the hillstream loaches in one tank?...Is dhe going to outcompete them all for food....?  She's a curious active weather loach, bites my fingers if I let her.
I am thinking to put all cold water fish into one 120cm long tank. At the moment it's 3 different tubs, taking more space. Like I had said, some time in the future we'll be moving and I might as well get all that done then as I'll disturb the fish anyway.


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## sciencefiction (17 Jun 2021)

Hi,
It's been a while. Somehow working from home leaves me little time for forums.....and even looking at my fish......
I have just been doing the needful and I wasn't paying much attention in terms of growth, etc..

Yesterday I spent some time observing and kid you not, I could not recognize the fish. I saw some really big clown loaches....They have grown. I mean, gown enough to be chunky clown loaches and the difference being notable in my own eyes. They're not huge but let's say I remember some being 4-5 inch fish, which are now 6-7 inch and I can no longer see small loaches.

Everyone else is fine too. I didn't want to disturb them so I snapped a pic of the weather loach tub only, overgrown with the  bit of sunshine we got lately.  She, the weather loach appears to be doing just fine on her own in there, underneath that growth.


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## sciencefiction (18 Jun 2021)

I got a bit of a video of the underwater life in the pond. Unfortunately the clowns all appear smaller sitting at 80 cm distance from my camera, right at the bottom... plus chilling under the driftwood. However, it's all a very happy family in there I think. Fortunately the clowns don't consider the harlequins as food but I'd say the depth of the tank also helps as I literally have fish on 3 levels in there, clowns and some corys at the bottom, then SAEs and Denisons next and top surface harlequins My bushinose plec is also in there doing just fine but he's very reclusive. I don't even know where his hiding spot is but I suspect he uses the areas behind the plant pots.


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## mort (19 Jun 2021)

It's nice to see chunky but healthy weight clowns rather than sickly or pot bellied ones. They are certainly living their best lives.


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## sciencefiction (4 Jul 2021)

Today I got a bit of a shocking surprise.....
 I went into the fish room to start water changes and in one of my hillstream tubs and I see that really weird Peace Lily flower, or so I thought because I have a hanging Peace Lily there that has been flowering all summer.  I thought it got a bit too much sunshine because it had burst open  However, on second look I noticed the stalk is coming from under the water. So guys, after many, many years of having the Crinum Calamistratum and bringing to death's door on many occasions, it actually flowered


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## sciencefiction (4 Jul 2021)

One more pic because it is such a beauty.....


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## DeepMetropolis (8 Jul 2021)

Wow nice one. It is always cool to see your plants flowering.


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## LondonDragon (20 Jul 2021)

That is one beautiful flower


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## sciencefiction (25 Sep 2021)

Hello, I hope everyone is well.

I was thinking today it's 5 years about since I got the denison barbs as babies and they have grown and have been doing well so far. They're beautiful fish to have. 

So here they are with the rest of the crew, the video taken this evening.


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## sciencefiction (30 Sep 2021)

Hello
This is the weather loach tub, hydrophilla going nuts as usual and the loach is doing fine. 





And some growth over the pond






And one more video showing a better view of some of the bigger clown loaches.


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## sciencefiction (17 Oct 2021)

Hey,just one more video...

The very start shows the harlequin rasboras,which I dont normally capture as they like the top and the back of the pond. But they are beautiful...I think. They seem to be doing well.


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## sciencefiction (29 Oct 2021)

The heating is expensive enough, especially lately but to me the fish are worth the expense. Right now I only have one LED light and the plants are doing quite well with just natural light and some reflecting light from the other mini ponds. It's been great seeing the fish grow and thrive in this pond.


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## sciencefiction (5 Nov 2021)

I actually had 2 clown loaches jump out to their death but that was in the span of the last 10 years. Both cases were when they were recently enough put in a tank. The first one was shortly after I moved the clowns to the pond, providing they had spend their time in another open top glass tank with no jumping but I think they needed time to settle in the new surrounding and that particular loach was super friendly and hyper active. Very sad. I had had him for a good few years.  The second time was a newly purchased, again very hyper active baby clown loach, the reason I had picked him in the shop, he jumped out of his quarantine tank, also open top. I was devastated. 

Apart from that, zilch jumping of fish in open top tanks. I have 2 open top tanks with hillstream loaches and a tub with a weather loach, open top, another with kuhli loaches, also open top, etc...No one ever jumps out. So in my opinion, they only jump out when stressed, either water conditions, stress from being moved, tank mates, etc....I'd be worried if I start getting jumping fish on a regular basis.


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## MichaelJ (5 Nov 2021)

sciencefiction said:


> in my opinion, they only jump out when stressed, either water conditions, stress from being moved, tank mates, etc....I'd be worried if I start getting jumping fish on a regular basis.


Totally agree. Comes down to judgement, preference etc.  I have my lid on because I want to limit evaporation, have my light fixture resting on top of the tank, and to a much lesser extent, although it factors in, out of fear of loosing fish jumping or shrimps crawling out - as for my shrimps, mine would have plenty of opportunities to pack up their suitcases and crawl out if they wanted too as 3 inches at the back is wide open for my HOB filters with cords etc. providing easy access to the world outside.
Cheers,
Michael


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## John q (6 Nov 2021)

If your fish are jumping out of the tank  then re assess your fish keeping skills, when I approach my tank (day or night) its akin to a scene from heaven almighty.. 🙃


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## sciencefiction (8 Nov 2021)

One of my old internal filters, a Fluval, finally gave up yesterday after 11 years. It just would not turn back on. I was using it on one of the tubs that only holds kuhli loaches at the moment. Unfortunately in the process I also flushed a kuhli loach down the drain by accident. It was in the internal filter Devastated.

The filter got replaced though. I had a small Eheim external which I never got around setting up.  I have to buy a couple of spare heaters also, just to have as I was thinking I don't have any spare ones..

I am uploading a video I took today from the pond, will post later, not that anything has changed since last time...  I was once asked why exactly do I find fish interesting....Tough question, you can't tell weather I took the video today or a year ago for example.  Things only change when tanks get re-arranged or one buys new fish. I don't do either very often.....


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## sciencefiction (8 Nov 2021)




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## sciencefiction (16 Apr 2022)

Hey everyone,

I hope all is well. And I hate that same saying but it kind of stuck over the last 2 years. I wish all of you the stars in the sky and your health and resistance.

The last couple of days I was messing with my fish tubs as I decided to move my home office from the sitting room to the fish room. In order to do that I had to downsize tub wise. I initially wanted to completely remove my kuhli loach tub because I thought they're gone/dead but upon messing with it they appeared out from the sand and the wood so I was stopped in my tracks   .  Therefore, there was change of plans and my weather loach tub had to join the other cold loach tub.

So this post is to tell the entire story that just dawned at me while observing the weather loach in the transition from her old to her new tub....The catching was easy, she, my weather loach, is  very friendly, loves feeling my fingers, had never been netted, job done, she got tossed to another tank...While I was cleaning up her tub, I noticed some massive shrimp, as in fully grown ones that only get to that point either out of no predation or great food/conditions. I was proud of my weather loach, not a predator .At some point while cleaning I notice one snail, only one snail on the wall. I thought  nothing about it apart from tossing it to a live tub.

Following the above events, today I check on the weather loach in her new tub, which by the way is twice as large/long compared to her previous solo one. It was a beneficial move for her.  And what do I see? She's killing snails, big ones.. She sucked on it while the snail  was scavenging and shook her head with it in the water until she killed it/ate it.....Hence I only found the one snail in her previous tub and many shrimp. I suppose she's got a specific taste....


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## sciencefiction (28 Apr 2022)

A video of the pond below. Nothing much has changed. One of the filters leaked a few weeks ago and I haven't replaced it yet. It looks like the Chinese filters last longer than the German....


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## sciencefiction (9 May 2022)

A short video of the weather loach below munching on food while I was changing the water, featuring a blue/purple shrimp, which got moved at the same time.  The shrimp is a progeny of my very first bunch of 5 red/red rili shrimp I got many years ago.  I get weird colours like that from time to time.


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## LondonDragon (9 May 2022)

sciencefiction said:


> I get weird colours like that from time to time.


You selective breed those and make a small fortune


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## Andy Pierce (9 May 2022)

LondonDragon said:


> You selective breed those and make a small fortune


Agree!  Purple shrimp is too cool.


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## sciencefiction (9 May 2022)

I think it's a male. I moved just the one net of shrimp into this tub , so maybe there's just 4-5 shrimp max but there's definitely an adult  female I saw around.  The less the number of shrimp, the better the chances they'd cross with each other I think.   Let's hope for babies  I might as well have a look at my other tanks with shrimp for some interesting females to add on.


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## sciencefiction (23 Sep 2022)

Hey everyone.

I've been so busy lately with good and bad in life, can't help it. It just happens.

Fish like always became a 2nd fiddle.

Today I managed to spend some time for myself while changing the water in all tanks to see who's alive and what's the situation.
I remembered today it's been about 6 years since I setup the pond and all the other plastic tubs. For those catching up late, I had become allergic to glass tanks after several floods 

The situation looks good. The fish look healthy, active and vibrant. I really think the types of setups I have are the healthiest I have had and now tested for years, which is simply emergent plants in pots with hanging lights, natural light even better, a thin layer of sand and plenty of filtration, water changes, and quality food.

In detail: clown loaches look a bit fat, bellies on some providing that there're days I forget to feed but I remembered that October is their breeding season so it might be because of that. I must remember to observe them around mid October, because although clowns do not breed in captivity, they do exhibit the behaviour and I've seen it before around this time of year.
They're all in really good health and there are some really big ones in there now after 10 years, although I purchased some of them a bit later of various sizes.
 My work desk is in that fish room and I get plenty of splashes from the clown loaches when I get up, to remind me to feed them. I've gone into the routine from morning to evening feeding, and when I finish work and lean around for some other reason and I get my face washed to remind me it's feeding time    They are so bold and very aggressive eaters.

The denison barbs, such lovely fish and I am so glad I got them to accompany the clown loaches. They're restless but they really give the clowns the confidence as they swim just above them. They get on great together. The barbs have grown really big and beautiful and colourful, and I never had one sick one from day one when I got them as babies, same as the clowns really.  They are now 6 years old. May they live long and happy lives.

Harlequin rasboras- still tons of them in there but I can't tell if any have died because I think I got 30-40 -ish of them, can't remember. They also get on great with the rest of the fish and are not afraid to mix with the clowns around feeding time. The clowns never bothered them. The harlequins have half the tank for themselves out the back. It's amazing that the smallest of fish have gotten the biggest space because even the denisons  like hanging at the front with the clowns where the food comes   So harlequins are queens of half the tank 

Now to the sad news. I could not see any SAEs today, not one. I think they may have withered and died. They didn't do great from the start because they're not aggressive eaters and are timid. Every other fish can bully them, even the harlequins. I am really sad but I expected that. Plus I think they would do better in a cooler tank. I did think to put them into the weather loach tank but catching from the pond is impossible.

Back to the good news. My weather loach is doing great since the transition to the bigger tub. And she's eaten all snails  That tank had so many snails getting all chunky  that I fed the clown loaches with them at some point. I never knew/read that weather loaches have a taste for snails  At the same time she doesn't seem to be touching the shrimp.  There are large healthy shrimp in there although I moved very few from her old tub. This tub never had shrimp before for test purposes and because I hate accidentally flushing shrimp down the drain but shrimp are a great addition to the ecosystem. .They save my job from cleaning the sand and the sponges on the intakes  Great scavengers and they keep the balance right.

And other bits and pieces from my other tub and only glass tank. I saw my cold water loaches, including some in the weather loach tank and also my glass tank which were exclusively setup for them. I don't know how many are alive but I've had them for quite a few years in planted tanks! and they're living. I think I transitioned the glass tank to cold water loaches around 2017 and it's when I put them in post quarantining and treating one very sick baby clown loach which I had purchased to apply my medical skills, and who is now unrecognisable, healthy and big.  So some of the cold weather loaches are still here in 2022. They're tougher than I thought and I got a bit of slack for putting them in setups like that but it's working good enough.

The bushy nose pleco, or shell I say the bully, who I had raised from a little fry, is still intimidating the biggest of clowns 

And last, but not least, I still have kuhli loaches after 10 years from purchasing them. They live in a tub with just shrimp for a good few years now.

That was a lot of text with no pictures or videos and I know for myself, text on a fish forum is boring. Apologies. It's probably just for my own record  I'll try to get some pictures and videos up.

All the best to everyone.


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## Hufsa (28 Sep 2022)

I love this setup, such a dream for the fish 🥰
Ive always had a fondness for loaches, makes me angry when they are recommended as "a snail treatment" for any size tank


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## mort (28 Sep 2022)

Hufsa said:


> makes me angry when they are recommended as "a snail treatment"



We recently had to move our clown loach tank and a few things surprised me, the first was I'd fogotten how big their gill spines were, the second was how powerful a foot long clown loach is and the third was the amount of mts living very happily in the substrate. So they might like eating snails for a time but there comes a point when they really can't be bothered.





I've always loved this setup though because it treats the fish how they should be treated. It's nice to see a proper group in a proper sized spaced.


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## Conort2 (28 Sep 2022)

mort said:


> We recently had to move our clown loach tank and a few things surprised me, the first was I'd fogotten how big their gill spines were, the second was how powerful a foot long clown loach is and the third was the amount of mts living very happily in the substrate. So they might like eating snails for a time but there comes a point when they really can't be bothered.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Any pictures of this set up? Foot long clown loach are a rare thing due to people not keeping them under proper conditions unfortunately.


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## mort (28 Sep 2022)

Conort2 said:


> Any pictures of this set up? Foot long clown loach are a rare thing due to people not keeping them under proper conditions unfortunately.



I've never really got any good ones because the room isn't wide enough to get more than a bit of the tank in and without the scale, they just look like chunky clowns. I'll see what I can do though. 
We had 11, 10 bought by my parents and 1 we inherited from my friend who's dad bought him them when we got them. They were bought in 1992 and now we are only down to 6 with them slowly dieing off after they reached 25 (didn't lose one until then). Only a few reached that 12" in size and there was a Russian doll type look to the group, down to about 7". When they got a chance to climb the hierarchy they did put on grow spurts. There's a botia striata in there with them that my brother got in 1997, which is the youngest fish in the tank.


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## Conort2 (28 Sep 2022)

mort said:


> They were bought in 1992


You have fish the same age as me! 😮

Must be great to actually keep something for it’s intended life span. I’ve got some khuli loach knocking about which are coming up to around ten years old I recon but that must be the oldest.


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## mort (29 Sep 2022)

Conort2 said:


> Must be great to actually keep something for it’s intended life span.



It is and it sounds nice but they are also a massive tie. If people knew their potential size and age when they bought them I doubt that many would get them now. I started the maintence on them with my dad when i was 6 and took over completely at 7-8, so its not hard to keep them. All we have ever done is a decent regular water change (and our water is liquid rock) and fed them. 
It may sound a bit horrible but I have often looked at their tank and thought what I could do with it if there weren't there (not so much the clowns as they are fun but there is also a 14" silver shark, who's a bit agro, and a silver dollar, who means no plants) as I'm not really into big fish and apart from the clowns the other fish were rescues my dad made in the early to mid 90's, apart from a Platydoras costatus that me and my brother clubbed together for when I was six in 92, it was £3.75 and the first fish I ever bought (which is quite nice).    

I think having them as the focal point, in a large group, as sciencefiction has done, is the way to go. I think they become more endearing as that age that way.


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## sciencefiction (9 Oct 2022)

My water is also very hard, PH 7.4 and problem with kettles, white residue even on fish tanks, etc..


Hufsa said:


> I love this setup, such a dream for the fish 🥰
> Ive always had a fondness for loaches, makes me angry when they are recommended as "a snail treatment" for any size tank


Thanks. I can't imagine my tank without the clown loaches. They're the focal point really and probably my favourite ever fish. However, snails wise,   I found out my weather loach is quite the snail eater too. She got moved a few months ago and there are now no snails left in what was quite a  snail infested tank with the original residents being hillstream loaches.  There were so many snails, they bunched up when I put food in the tank and probably not doing a favour to the hillstream loaches at the time. Now there are none with the weather loach patrolling  I saw how she eats them, bites them and shakes them violently in the water to get them out of the shell. At the same time, shrimp are doing just fine. She doesn't seem to be eating them at all and I've had one of the largest shrimp in her tub.


mort said:


> It is and it sounds nice but they are also a massive tie. If people knew their potential size and age when they bought them I doubt that many would get them now.



You know, I think what one should also know is that they're also long lived fish and it will take years of dedication, throughout all ups and downs in one's personal life. I've had mine for 10 years now and if you've read this thread, it wasn't always a plain sailing with either my fish or my life but we made it so far.

I am uploading a video, couldn't really take a proper one as my phone refused to co-operate going under water although it's supposed to be water proof for a period. So the video is from the surface, a bit too far 80 cm to the fish. However, I saw SAEs in the tank this evening so they're not dead as I had thought


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## sciencefiction (9 Oct 2022)

Did another one, maybe slightly better. For size, compare


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## sciencefiction (9 Oct 2022)

Uploading a third one I got up close just to give scale of size of some of the loaches. At the very start of the video one can see at least 3 of the large ones together. Sorry about the flashes, the camera was being blinded by the tank lights. I can also see my 3 stripe loach, with the large dot, who was the really sick loach I had bought from a shop to test my vet skills on. He is doing well and annoying the ladies


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## sciencefiction (14 Oct 2022)

I have been comparing and my videos are getting poorer, my phone I use to take them is getting upgraded 
Having said that, I think it's because I have just one artificial light, where before I had two. I know the plants are actually using natural light and the fish don't like it too bright so I haven't bothered buying a new light when the last got bust. I just wanted to note for the viewers but I am now tempted  to add one back so I can see the fish better as it's really blurry taking the videos with one light. The fish look so much more vibrant when I look at them.


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## mort (15 Oct 2022)

My light unit I had over the clowns had gradually lost leds over the last decade or so, to a point where only about a quarter of them were still working. I must admit that the dimmer it got, the more the fish seemed to like it. I had to recently move the tank and popped a temporary aquaray strip light in the middle of the 6ft span and even though it's dim, it adds a nice shimmer and shadows, they love it. I added some plants to see if they would survive (so popped them under the only light there was) and the denser they have grown, blocking more light, the happier the fish seem to be. I do admittedly have mostly catfish and the loaches left with just a solitary silver dollar and a silver shark. I do plan to add a decent size group of rosy barbs or similar for movement so will up the light then but apart from that I still get to see really happy, playful and vibrant clown loaches, even if it is hard to show them off to others.


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