# Can you run CO2 injection on a buffered substrate?



## tayloss (11 Mar 2018)

Hi all,

May seem like a silly question, but I have wondered if you can run CO2 injection with a buffered substrate when the PH is already at 6-6.5?

My current 25lt tank did have a small CO2 setup, but the PH dropped to around 5.5 and I then couldn’t use the DC or chart correctly.. or so I believe... 

I currently have some Crystal Red Shrimp with Chilli Rasbora that seems to be doing fine, but am unsure if the injection messed up the balance early on? Of the videos I’ve seen, everyone seems to be using tap water and not remineralisation of RO...

Thoughts..?

Thanks.
Chris


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## dw1305 (13 Mar 2018)

Hi all, 





tayloss said:


> but the PH dropped to around 5.5 and I then couldn’t use the DC or chart correctly


You can always use a drop checker, because it has 4 dKH liquid in it and an air gap between the water and the drop checker fluid it is only measuring the CO2 in the water, other acids (other than H2CO2) don't have any effect (they aren't gases and don't diffuse across the air gap).

cheers Darrel


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## rebel (13 Mar 2018)

Yes you can, but depending on kH, it might be a very fine balance. The amount of CO2 'required' (30ppm usual goal) will be the same regardless of your pH. Maybe try to get a kH of 2 and add CO2 slowly and observe.


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## tayloss (13 Mar 2018)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, You can always use a drop checker, because it has 4 dKH liquid in it and an air gap between the water and the drop checker fluid it is only measuring the CO2 in the water, other acids (other than H2CO2) don't have any effect (they aren't gases and don't diffuse across the air gap).
> 
> cheers Darrel


Thanks Darrel, its my mis-understanding of the way DC's work as I though the PH had an impact on the measurement.. Thats good to know 



rebel said:


> Yes you can, but depending on kH, it might be a very fine balance. The amount of CO2 'required' (30ppm usual goal) will be the same regardless of your pH. Maybe try to get a kH of 2 and add CO2 slowly and observe.


The problem is with adding KH to the water is that the substrate will try and remove it wouldn't it?


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## dw1305 (13 Mar 2018)

Hi all,





tayloss said:


> .......as I though the PH had an impact on the measurement.. The problem is with adding KH to the water is that the substrate will try and remove it wouldn't it?


Yes it will, I probably wouldn't try and raise the dKH of the water very much, you could add a soluble calcium carbonate source if you felt the shrimps needed it (a small bit of cuttle "bone" would be an option).





rebel said:


> Maybe try to get a kH of 2 and add CO2 slowly and observe.


I'm not a CO2 user, but if you don't feel happy with the large pH drop (because of your very soft water) you could just aim for 15ppm CO2. You could still use the drop checker, just dilute the 4 dKH drop checker solution 50:50 with DI water, when you have a lime green drop checker you have ~15ppm CO2, or use the 4dKH solution and only add enough CO2 to get it to change to dark green. 

cheers Darrel


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## Parablennius (13 Mar 2018)

dw1305 said:


> , but if you don't feel happy with the large pH drop (because of your very soft water) you could just aim for 15ppm CO2. You could still use the drop checker, just dilute the 4 dKH drop checker solution 50:50 with DI water, when you have a lime green drop checker you have ~15ppm CO2,


This is what I do.
cheers


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## tayloss (13 Mar 2018)

I guess the next thing is the fertiliser amount to add with the co2 injection with a fairly high powered lighting.. Currently I dose 1ml of excel with 2.5ml of ferts, but I will properly have to increase this if I add it back in as the excel is causing some of the plants to melt 

Didn't think about the dilution method... Would 15ppm be ok to use with my current ferts regime?

Its the CO2 Supermarket mix, but if another fert is suitable, happy to change...?

Thanks... Chris


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## tayloss (15 Mar 2018)

Bump!


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## ian_m (15 Mar 2018)

tayloss said:


> Its the CO2 Supermarket mix, but if another fert is suitable, happy to change...?


http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/fertilisers/dry-chemicals/starter-kits/ei-starter-kit.html

Maybe better than all in one as doses macros and micros on alternate days so no chance of them reacting (and cheaper than all on one mix per dose).

If you are only using 15ppm CO2, which is fine of course I would still dose full EI as excess ferts have no issues (other than cost), BUT you must must must control your lighting levels and period or else you will melt all your plants to algae.


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## tayloss (15 Mar 2018)

ian_m said:


> Maybe better than all in one as doses macros and micros on alternate days so no chance of them reacting (and cheaper than all on one mix per dose).
> 
> If you are only using 15ppm CO2, which is fine of course I would still dose full EI as excess ferts have no issues (other than cost), BUT you must must must control your lighting levels and period or else you will melt all your plants to algae.


Hi Ian, Thanks for the reply.. 

I already have a  couple of those ingredients, so could make up the missing ones from that site!

Could you go into a little more detail about the lighting control... How would I fine tune this and know other than melting the plants.. They haven't melted so far, but for reference I am using this one:



 

I will read the instructions that come with the ferts you linked to as well.

Thanks,
Chris


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## ian_m (15 Mar 2018)

tayloss said:


> How would I fine tune this and know other than melting the plants..


When starting up a tank it is advisable to start with "lower" light levels for "shorter" period of time. If your light has a dimmer, then all fine and good, try 30% see what happens.

If it hasn't got any intensity control stick some strips of black insulation tape across the light to save block 50% or more. Run with that for a couple of weeks to allow everything to settle in before increasing light level and period.


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## tayloss (15 Mar 2018)

ian_m said:


> When starting up a tank it is advisable to start with "lower" light levels for "shorter" period of time. If your light has a dimmer, then all fine and good, try 30% see what happens.
> 
> If it hasn't got any intensity control stick some strips of black insulation tape across the light to save block 50% or more. Run with that for a couple of weeks to allow everything to settle in before increasing light level and period.


Got you!

So, my plan of action will be to reintroduce my CO2 setup @ 15PPM (DC halved with RO), reduce the lighting period via a dimmer (which I have an inline one) and does the EI ferts as per the dosing schedule..

As for the lighting coming on, do I turn the CO2 on 2 hours before the light and 30mins or longer before lights out in the evening?

Another question, do I dial in the CO2 so the DC is green and then dose the ferts, or start from day one with adjusting the CO2 while adding the ferts?


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## ian_m (15 Mar 2018)

tayloss said:


> As for the lighting coming on, do I turn the CO2 on 2 hours before the light and 30mins or longer before lights out in the evening


Correct try CO2 on 2 hours before lights on and CO2 off 1 hour before lights off.



tayloss said:


> Another question, do I dial in the CO2 so the DC is green and then dose the ferts, or start from day one with adjusting the CO2 while adding the ferts?


Yes. Dose the ferts from day one, even before your CO2 is sorted. Excess left over ferts will be removed at weekly (or more) water change. If you are running CO2 at 15ppm, might be able to get away with 1/2 does EI dosing and maybe even 50% water changes every fortnight rather than weekly (as well as lower light levels). Unfortunately you will just have to try and see. Too much light and poor CO2 levels and distribution if major cause of planted tank failure.


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## tayloss (16 Mar 2018)

Great, thanks Ian.. I've ordered the ferts from above and will add the CO2 once it arrives..


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## Barbara Turner (17 Mar 2018)

If your water is very soft you might have to fine tune when you turn the co2 on and off, I'm using 2/3 RO water and 1/3 tap, and CO2 levels fluxate a lot faster, I now only switch the co2 levels on 30 minutes before lights other wise it spikes.


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## tayloss (18 Mar 2018)

Thanks Barbara..

So, now that I have the DC showing green, do i take it, that now I have to balance the light and nutrients and leave the CO2 alone, or am I still juggling three balls?

The light has been dimmed to around 25% and I've added my normal fertiliser to the water until the EI mix arrives hopefully this week. I've also downed the light amount to 6 hours for now and will built it up to 8 over the coming weeks.

Do I leave the lighting level at 25% and then increase duration, or increase lighting amount and then duration?

Thanks,
Chris


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## tayloss (20 Mar 2018)

So far so good.. Still awaiting the EI Dosing kit to arrive, but seems to be just about hitting green on the DC before the lights come on.. I'm popping the CO2 on 2 hours before the lights, and its a nice slow 1 bubble every couple of seconds, and the light is currently at 25%.

Dosing 3ml of CO2 Supermarket fertiliser until the Macro/Micro's arrive..

As above, do I start to increase lighting period before or after brighting up the light?


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## ian_m (20 Mar 2018)

tayloss said:


> As above, do I start to increase lighting period before or after brighting up the light?


Depends...

If your plants have been in the tank for a couple of weeks and have "settled down" then increase the lighting period by say an hour a week, before increasing the intensity. If plant/algae issues appear back off a bit and allow to settle. Obviously ensure CO2 is always optimal when the lights come on.

If your plants are new, allow plants to settle in before zapping them with megawatts of light...



Barbara Turner said:


> If your water is very soft you might have to fine tune when you turn the co2 on and off, I'm using 2/3 RO water and 1/3 tap, and CO2 levels fluxate a lot faster, I now only switch the co2 levels on 30 minutes before lights other wise it spikes.


This is a prime indication your CO2 distribution/injection is not quite right. You need to increase surface agitation/movement slightly & up injection rate to that it does not go above 30ppm at all.


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## tayloss (20 Mar 2018)

ian_m said:


> Depends...
> 
> If your plants have been in the tank for a couple of weeks and have "settled down" then increase the lighting period by say an hour a week, before increasing the intensity. If plant/algae issues appear back off a bit and allow to settle. Obviously ensure CO2 is always optimal when the lights come on.
> 
> If your plants are new, allow plants to settle in before zapping them with megawatts of light...


Thanks Ian... I have had the tank running a few months, so they are settled etc.. I have just put the CO2 back in, so am starting from scratch in that respect.. I'm running at 15ppm as recommended and all seems to be good so far... Going for 8 hours maximum in a couple of week and will monitor the algae..


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## ian_m (20 Mar 2018)

tayloss said:


> Thanks Ian... I have had the tank running a few months, so they are settled etc.. I have just put the CO2 back in, so am starting from scratch in that respect.. I'm running at 15ppm as recommended and all seems to be good so far... Going for 8 hours maximum in a couple of week and will monitor the algae..


All sounds fine, just take things slowly and back off if any plants issues appear. LED lighting fixtures are a wonderfully easy way to melt all your plants and turn your tank into an algae farm..

As an example, my controller has a "holiday mode" ie shortened lighting period & lighter ferts dosing whilst I am away on holiday. However plants are fine when I come back, but I can guarantee plant issues & slight BBA algae when I come back and switch controller to non holiday mode, as there is a sudden increase in lighting period. Normally just live with it or now after a couple of days just x5 (or more) dose liquid carbon the stop the BBA in its tracks.


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## tayloss (20 Mar 2018)

ian_m said:


> All sounds fine, just take things slowly and back off if any plants issues appear. LED lighting fixtures are a wonderfully easy way to melt all your plants and turn your tank into an algae farm..


I don't have a controller for it, just one of these dimmers you can get as I'd didn't think i'd be sticking at it in my nano.. But actually I really do like the way the tank is tuning out.. Even though its been a pain in the butt.. I've recently added some Chilli Rasbora's and they give the tank some movement along with the shrimp.. May even look to rescape the 55l to full planted too!


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## tayloss (2 Apr 2018)

Just a quick update to say that everything is starting to come back with 15ppm CO2 injection and will be moving over to full EI dosing shortly as well as increasing the lighting duration next weekend..

Thanks for all your help 


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