# Conundrum... Inverts Dying - Water Parameters?



## Egmel (27 Oct 2009)

Since moving to my sisters I have lost all of my shrimp (more than I could count even during the move) and all of my Malaysian Trumpet snails.

However my apple snails and all my fish are fine  :? 

The only thing which has changed with the move is the water as she's with a different supplier.  There are no strange air fresheners in the room and the tank is covered.  Her bloke does occasionally use furniture polish but we all try our best to hide it from him as we don't like the smell.

The apple snails are showing a bit more pitting than usual so I suspect lower levels of calcium or lower pH (8.4 -> 7.2ish) and I've been dosing with snail strong since I moved in an attempt to compensate.

So could it be the snail strong?  Unlikely since it's designed for use in tropical aquaria.

The only other thing I can think of is a co2 overdose, the apple snails have lungs so could have made it to the surface to breathe and the fish can all gulp if they need to...

What else could I have done to manage to kill off an entire population of the indestructible MTS and all my shrimps!


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## hipknoteyes (27 Oct 2009)

*Re: Conundrum...*

Hi,

As far as the shrimps are concerned it could just be done to a sudden change in the water - ie if you transported them in a small amount of water and then filled the tank at your sisters.  Shrimps are fine with changes in water parameter but not sudden large changes - they need to be acclimatised - if their not then they can die and this usually happens within a couple of days (upto about a week after the change).  

Cheers

Chris


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## Egmel (27 Oct 2009)

*Re: Conundrum...*

Hi Chris, 

They were fully acclimatised over several hours and I bought about quarter of a tank of water with me in a jerry can (with 'fish water only' written on it   ) so I don't think it was the change in water.  Also it wouldn't account for my MTS which are much less sensitive to such changes.

I don't know for sure, but I would guess it was about a month after moving in, that I realised that there were no shrimp left.   I had expected to lose a few, but the whole population?!    I don't know if it happened overnight or was a gradual decline, in a heavily planted tank if you only see a couple of shrimp when you're dashing out in the morning you don't really notice, it's only when you look more closely and suddenly realise you can't see any... I can't say whether or not I noticed fewer during the water changes as they tend to go into hiding as soon as I put my hands in the tank!


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## Superman (27 Oct 2009)

*Re: Conundrum...*

I happily kept shrimp in Halifax but moved to Cheltenham and can't seem to keep shrimp or snails alive.
I had MTS die within a few days of introduction and never got to the bottom of it myself.
There's other people on here who just can't keep inverts for one reason or another and it's such a shame.
I'd love shrimp in my nano, but they never live past a week! I'm sure it's got something to do with the water but have never bothered to go RO to test it.


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## Egmel (27 Oct 2009)

*Re: Conundrum...*

ok, well I asked the new water company for a report and I've compared it to the one I had from my previous company, there are several differences, I've listed them below. (Note all values are mean values)


```
Element                      New    | Old
------------------------------------|-------- 
Turbidity (NTU)...............5     |  8
Arsenic (ug/l)................2.65  |  0.59
Copper (mg/l)................ 0.273 |  0.018
Iron (ug/l)................. 15     |  6.4
Nitrate (mg/l).............. 18.1   |  29
Selenium (ug/l).............. 1     |  1.9
Sodium (mg/l)............... 28     | 16
Total Trihalomethanes (ug/l) 37.43  |  7.1
Total Pesticide (ug/l)....... 0.018 |  0.009
Sulphate (mg/l)............. 51     | 38.9
Total Organic Carbon (mg/l).. 3     |  1.1
```

Chloride was also different but given de-cholrinator I'm inclined to discount that as a factor.  I also doubt that Nitrate will be the culprit.  If someone were to force me to make a bet I think it'll either be the copper or the sodium, both large differences in absolute as well as relative terms and both already known to affect inverts.

Clark (or anyone else who's had difficulty with keeping shrimp), any chance you can find the values in the table for your water company, it'd be interesting to see if there's any correlation in any of them.... though as the mantra says 'correlation isn't necessarily causation'


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## Superman (27 Oct 2009)

*Re: Conundrum...*

I wouldn't mind if the problems were on really fussy shrimp, but nerite snails, MTS and cherry shrimp have all died in two different setups. Shrimp last a week, snails less than a day!

Here's my water comparison from old (Halifax) to new (Cheltenham).

It's interesting to see that the copper has gone down with the large increases in Nitrate, Sodium and Sulphate present in the water (on average).


```
Element                      New     | Old 
-------------------------------------|-------- 
Turbidity (NTU)............... 0.057 |  0.149
Arsenic (ug/l)................ 0.378 |  0.2075
Copper (mg/l)................  0.006 |  0.0075
Iron (ug/l).................  14.026 | 25.29
Nitrate (mg/l)..............  21.700 |  2.0632
Selenium (ug/l)..............  0.276 |  0.3
Sodium (mg/l)...............  34.125 |  8.82
Total Trihalomethanes (ug/l)  36.888 | 44.625
Total Pesticide (ug/l).......  0.010 |  0.05
Sulphate (mg/l).............  60.188 | 30.225
Total Organic Carbon (mg/l)..  2.153 |  1.658
```

I've gone through the following as the same was observed in my 180 litre tank...
- Brand new setup, no difference.
- Moving from Easy Carbo to pressurised co2, no difference.
- Moved from dosing TPN+ to diy-EI, no difference.

The only think that I think of is the temp as I don't heat the tank at the minute and my heating has been rarely on. However, I did used to heat the 180 litre and they died.

The only other possible solutions are:
- the water parameters?
- no heating?
- lack of oxygen?
- I'm doing something fundamentally wrong?

I've raised my concerns at the local shop who's manager of livestock lives around the corner from me and she keeps CRS! That would point to the water being ok?

I just can't win, if I had the chance, I'd try RO water next in my nano to rule it out.


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## Egmel (27 Oct 2009)

*Re: Conundrum...*

Ok so from those 2 reports here are the similarities (both in current standing and change to that standing), if we could get a couple more examples we might get somewhere.


```
Helen
Element                      New    | Old
------------------------------------|-------- 
Sodium (mg/l)............... 28     | 16
Sulphate (mg/l)............. 51     | 38.9
Total Organic Carbon (mg/l).. 3     |  1.1
 
Clark
Element                       New    | Old
-------------------------------------|-------- 
Sodium (mg/l)...............  34.125 |  8.82
Sulphate (mg/l).............  60.188 | 30.225
Total Organic Carbon (mg/l)..  2.153 |  1.658
```



			
				Superman said:
			
		

> I've raised my concerns at the local shop who's manager of livestock lives around the corner from me and she keeps CRS! That would point to the water being ok?


Only if she's with the same water supplier, my sister is less than 2miles from my new place and yet with a different supplier.


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## Superman (27 Oct 2009)

*Re: Conundrum...*



			
				Egmel said:
			
		

> Superman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've checked, same water standard area (Cheltenham South)


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## Superman (27 Oct 2009)

*Re: Conundrum...*

In addition, reading up on Cherry Shrimp...



			
				[url=http://www.planetinverts.com/Red%20Cherry%20Shrimp.html:16etbd97]Planted Inverts[/url] said:
			
		

> English name: Red Cherry Shrimp
> Scientific name: Neocaridina heteropoda var. red
> Origin: Taiwan
> Size male/female: 0.8 inch / 1 in Water temperature: 64 - 82 Â°F
> ...



With Nerite snails requiring temps of 22-26C with my tank not being hot enough at around 20C (at best).

If I had to bet on something for the snails, it might be the oxygen levels?


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## Egmel (27 Oct 2009)

*Re: Conundrum...*



			
				Superman said:
			
		

> Egmel said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well if she's using tap water in her tanks with no pre-treatment (other than de-chlor) then that rules out the tap water hypothesis.


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## Egmel (27 Oct 2009)

*Re: Conundrum...*



			
				Superman said:
			
		

> In addition, reading up on Cherry Shrimp...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well the shrimps are fine with 20Â°C so that shouldn't be a problem for them.

I don't know about nerites but most snails will survive the temp difference of a couple of degrees for at least while, they do get posted after all!  

Lower temperatures should cause the water to be able to hold more O2 not less so I doubt that, unless you've got too much CO2.


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## Superman (27 Oct 2009)

Mine could be nitrate related, whilst I dose a fair bit into my tank, there's loads already in my water.
It's got to be something I'm doing rather than something in the water, like copper etc.


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## gratts (27 Oct 2009)

My money would be on the copper. You've gone from 0.018 to 0.273mg/l, a 15x increase.
I read a paper few weeks back where Carcinus maenas, a pretty common little crabby on our shores, was showing stunted growth and nervous system decline with longterm exposure to copper at 0.06mg/L. Unfortunately that was a hard paper copy and I can't really find anything similar to back that up online..but your copper does seem pretty high! (Tap water for my tank comes out at 0.01!)


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## Superman (27 Oct 2009)

I'm currently researching on the internet and coming across people with similar problems, mainly on the THE BARR REPORT

Some seem to think it's what we dose rather than anything else, mainly KNO3. But Tom Barr says that he's gone upto 160ppm of Nitrate and got a few Amano deaths.


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## mr. luke (28 Oct 2009)

Temperature wont be the issue here... Nerites can survive at that lower temperature, however they will be more sluggish and over a longer period of time may starve due to impaired mobility.
Correct me if im wrong but is sodium not salt?
There was a huge increase of this in your water supplies, although im not sure if its the cause......
Could also be down to the shock of moving and your fert regimes... the move would make them more susceptable to ilness and death.


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## ceg4048 (28 Oct 2009)

mr. luke said:
			
		

> ...Correct me if im wrong but is sodium not salt?.


No.    Sodium (Na) is not salt. Sodium Chloride (NaCl) is what we know as table salt. Therefore table salt is one of the many possible sources of Sodium.

Along with the Copper an a twofold increase in Sodium there appears to be a 4 fold increase in Arsenic
Arsenic (ug/l)................2.65  |  0.59

A 5 fold increase in the carcinogenic Trihalomethanes 
Total Trihalomethanes (ug/l) 37.43  |  7.1

And a doubling of the Pesticides
Total Pesticide (ug/l)....... 0.018 |  0.009

Although these are measured in Parts per Billion so there shouldn't really be an issue here. Still, I'd probably be using RO water for my tea though, just in case some genius had messed up the decimal point while recording the measurements...  

Cheers,


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## Egmel (28 Oct 2009)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Along with the Copper an a twofold increase in Sodium there appears to be a 4 fold increase in Arsenic
> Arsenic (ug/l)................2.65  |  0.59
> 
> A 5 fold increase in the carcinogenic Trihalomethanes
> ...


I noted those too Clive, makes me laugh slightly as I always used a filter in my old place and haven't since I moved because the water tastes better.    Beginning to wish it wasn't in storage so I could use it now...  however it is parts per billion and well within allowable limits so it should be safe to drink.

Not knowing anything about these chemicals I've no idea if the relative increase means anything when looking at such minute quantities... it could be a combination of things which is why I was interested to see what tied up with mine and Clarke's reports, but he's just confounded that by saying that his problem is more localised than just to his water area.

In short while it's interesting to see what's different at the global level I don't think I can draw any conclusions without getting samples tested from the taps as it could be something which happens between the supply and my taps. (there's evidence for this in the water board's reports where they said that there were 3 cases of infringement of standards which were found to be due to the local plumbing of the properties in question).

Hey ho, I'm hopefully moving out soon so maybe I'll have more luck in my new place when I'm back with Thames water.


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## Lisa_Perry75 (29 Oct 2009)

I'm really annoyed as I took forever doing a reply for this and its not here


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## Egmel (29 Oct 2009)

Lisa_Perry75 said:
			
		

> I'm really annoyed as I took forever doing a reply for this and its not here


Damn those reply stealing gremlins.   

It may sound stupid but have you tried the back button in your browser, sometimes that magically remembers what was typed in text boxes. *EDIT* just noticed the time difference between these last two posts, probably a bit late for the back button


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## Brenmuk (4 Nov 2009)

Found this link:

http://www.petshrimp.com/articles/whyshrimpdead.html 

Do you use any kind of water conditioner?

If I were you I would want to rule out Cu and other heavy metal contamination from local pipework/water supply by adding some kind of chelator. I don't use water conditioners myself but some like Tetra Aquasafe are supposed to contain chelators for this purpose.


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## Egmel (4 Nov 2009)

I do indeed, I'm currently using seachem prime, I don't know if it has a chelator or not.


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