# 320l Discus tank, becoming planted !



## Tony Swinney (29 Jan 2009)

Iâ€™ve had this tank running for about 2 years now, and it was set up as a discus tank, but as the â€œplantedâ€ bug bites more and more, Iâ€™ve been introducing some foliage and plan to add some hardscape too.  James3200's and steve2tanks discus set ups have shown me that planted and discus can work together beautifully !  

The tank is 320l, with 2 Eheim filters, pressurised CO2, and has 218w of T5 light - more details in the spec below.  There is an automatic  water change system which drops 50l of water a day, and replenishes with pre-mixed RO/HMA blend from a storage tank.

It runs at around 6.5ph, and 29Ëšc. The substrate is just silver sand.

Its certainly not a â€˜scapedâ€™ tank (yet !) but there are a couple of varieties of Vallis across the back (spiralis and nana I think), some Amazon Swords on the right, and a crypt or 2 on the left.  Iâ€™ve been adding some other samples in the last few days, just to see how they grow in the tank conditions really - HC, Crypt Becketti Petchii, Limnophila Heterophylia, Pogostemon Helferi, Ludwigia Arcuata and Rotala Wallichi, and some Blyxa Japonica too (thanks Steve). I have some more redmoor roots which I might use too.

I dose with Tropica + (32ml per week), and also with EasyCarbo (56ml per week) daily through an autodoser.  Though I do plan to move onto EI with dry ferts soon - just have to get my head around it a bit more first !

The fish stock include 13 discus (alenquers, pigeon silvers, marlboro reds, red turqs, and royal blues), 30 rummy nose tetras, 2 saeâ€™s, 6 botia striata, 2 golden nugget plec, 2 cory gossei, 14 cory sterbia, 16 amano and 2 mountain shrimp.  Its a little overstocked at the minute, but I have another tank starting up soon so will relocate some then !

Now for the questions and queries  :?: !

- The CO2 is pumping out at about 4bpm, but the drop checker is only just turning green from blue. My swords and the Becketti have some melting going on, and the HC is really struggling. Iâ€™ve another CO2 diffuser which I could add to increase the CO2, or should I reduce the lighting instead.  I have a little algae, mainly on the upper vallis leaves right in the flow of one of the filter outlets.  I thought this was Staghorn, but having read JamesCâ€™s algae info Iâ€™m not so sure as it is in the high flow area ?

- I guess the auto waterchange is removing the TPN+ / EasyCarbo to some degree, as the 50L trickles out of the tank over 24 hrs, and is replenished via a float switch.  Would it be better to remove the 50L in one go before lights and dosing in the morning, so that the ferts stay in the tank for the next  20 or so hours ?

- Is there anything I can do to improve the substrate?  I presently add root tabs around the planting, but wonder if there are any other options ?  I cant move the discus out to do it though !

Here are some pics of it all:










The HC has a tough time staying planted in the silver sand, with the attentions of the corys and the discus:




Some of the samples planted yesterday:

Limnophila_Heterophylia:




RotalaWallichi




LudwigiaArcuata




Pogostemon_Helferi




The algae   




Behind the scenes   




Front of house:




And the tank when it was first installed in the wall (Jan08) with the redmoor root disguised as a redmoor "tree"   




And here is the spec:

60" x 18" x 24" tank, holding approx 320l / 86 US gall
Auto water change 50l / day - RO/HMA blend.
2 x Eheim 2026 filters
2 x Hydor 300w inline heaters
UV steriliser - 9am > 5pm

Pressurised CO2 through diffuser mounted under filter inlet (approx 4bpm) - 9am > 5pm
1 x Arcadia T5 54w marine white - 9.30am > 5.30pm
1 x Arcadia T5 54w plant pro - 9.30am > 5.30pm
2 x Interpet TriPlus 55w compacts - 10.30am > 4.30pm

Eheim air pump, with 2 outlets - 7pm > 1am



Thanks for looking, and please post up any thoughts or comments - they'd all be much appreciated.

Cheers

Tony


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## vauxhallmark (29 Jan 2009)

Wow, amazing setup! I think it looks stunning already.

Sorry to make a point that's not mentioned in your original post, but can you do anything about the gap between the two feeding flaps? Maybe it doesn't show as much in life, but in photos it really distracts from a system that you've obviously spent many hours and Â£Â£Â£s on. You must spend hours in front of (and behind) that tank!

Can't wait to see its development.

Mark


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## Dan Crawford (29 Jan 2009)

Thats lookin well smart mate. I love the setup behind the scenes


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## steve2tanks (29 Jan 2009)

Wow,love the behind the scene part,it looks great built into the wall like that  

Keep us updated on how you progress


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## Themuleous (29 Jan 2009)

Thats a hell of a set up, would put some marine tanks to shame, Im sure!

Lovely discus too.

Sam


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## james3200 (29 Jan 2009)

Loving the work gone into this, lots of potential on the planted side of things!

Co2, ever thought of getting an inline reactor, always found they are more efficient, i use a aquamedic 1000, used it also on a trigon 350 years ago and worked great.



> Would it be better to remove the 50L in one go before lights and dosing in the morning, so that the ferts stay in the tank for the next 20 or so hours



Probably, i would give it a go and find out.



> Is there anything I can do to improve the substrate? I presently add root tabs around the planting, but wonder if there are any other options ? I cant move the discus out to do it though !



Not a huge amount without removing the discus.. In the long run a planted tank substrate will help allot. On my tank I dose lightly and the ADA soil does the rest really. Depends what you want to grow in the tank.. I am sure you could carpet that tank though with the right plant choice and keep your substrate with some EI dosing.


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## Tony Swinney (29 Jan 2009)

Thanks for the comments guys.  I quite like the behind the scenes bit too - if my wife cant find me, thats where I'll be hiding    !  I'm into the techy side of things and automation as you can tell   



> but can you do anything about the gap between the two feeding flaps?


 Yep I need to sort that gap out Mark - it will be done !  



> Co2, ever thought of getting an inline reactor, always found they are more efficient, i use a aquamedic 1000, used it also on a trigon 350 years ago and worked great.



I have one of Ed's on order James !  I ordered it for the new planted tank, but think I'll use it on this one, and get another if Ed makes a second batch.

I'm going to try the "quick drop" water change, I'm sure if will be more efficient for the ferts / CO2 in the daytime.



> Depends what you want to grow in the tank.. I am sure you could carpet that tank though with the right plant choice and keep your substrate with some EI dosing.



Any suggestions on the carpeting plant ?  I really like the look of Utricularia Graminiflora, but hear it is tricky stuff to grow  :?:


I had a panic this morning  . I got back home at 11am to find all the rummys swimming at the surface, and the discus all at the opposite end of the tank from the wood (where they always hangout). They were also all leaning over quite a bit.  The shrimps and the SAEs were making darting runs to the surface too.  The CO2 was pouring out of the diffuser at a heck of a rate, and the DC was almost yellow - I reckon I must have caught the adjuster on the reg last night when cleaning up.  The pH was down to 5.1.  I switched off the CO2, and switched on the air pump, and did a 20% water change to get the pH rising gradually.  Its back up to 5.8 now, and the fish are all happy again, thank god !   

Having read about Saintlys disaster last night it made me realise just how easily these things can happen.

On the plus side it gave me an idea of how far I can push the CO2 - I might just to it a bit more gradually next time  

Tony


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## Tony Swinney (29 Jan 2009)

Was just about to PM you re the Dragon Stone James, but I see its gone     Would have been a good excuse to come and have a look at your setup, and the Tefe's   

Tony


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## james3200 (29 Jan 2009)

Oh, shame that

You can come anyway, come when i have the new wilds in a couple of weeks


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## altaaffe (29 Jan 2009)

Great looking setup and glad you caught the CO2 on time (not as glad as you I'll bet).

That's the type of set-up I'd like for a fish room, with a room within a room so that all you see is the fronts of the tanks.


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## Ray (29 Jan 2009)

Lovelytank and beautiful discus. _ Cryptocoryne Becketti Pechetti_ is perhaps my favorite crypt.

I'd do the water change in 1 shot, just before you auto dose the ferts and start the CO2.  Speaking of which - you say 4bpm - 4 bubbles per minute?  I presume you mean per second?  On my 200 litre I run at 2bps to get to bottle green, 3 or 4 bps to get to lime green.  But this depends on the size of your bubbles really.  With your lighting I'd shoot for a nice grass green as a minimum.  

If you drop the lighting, the plants (and hence algae) will be more forgiving with the CO2 and nutrient requirements.  You could start at partial lighting and later add a midday burst once you have things running nicely.

Finally I'm not sure you TPN+ is enough - your 32ml will only bring NO3 up to 6ppm, then if we consider the water changes it will back down close to 0.  I'm not sure if the discus will add enough extra.  I suspect you need to do EI to get to the 20ppm NO3 target EI folks go for - especially since you have an inert substrate.  However, if you dose CO2 and full EI everything should grow.  

You could add some Osmocote to the substrate as per JamesC - search for posts by him with the word Osmocote - it will save you changing the substrate over.


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## StevenA (29 Jan 2009)

WOW    That is one amazing setup, beautiful Discus, and I absolutely love the behind the scenes picture. Very well done Tony  8)


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## TDI-line (29 Jan 2009)

Brilliant setup Tony and stunning discus. Nice work.


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## hellohefalump (29 Jan 2009)

Really brilliant looking tank!  I love how you've put it in the wall aswell.  Beautiful discus.

I'm wondering if your Co2 is stable.  You say you start it at 9am, then lights are on at 9.30.  Then you're turning it off half an hour before lights out.  

On my 400litre, I'm finding to get the drop checker a consistant colour throughout the lighting period, I'm turning my CO2 on and hour and a half before lights on, and turning it off an hour before lights off.  I do have surface agitation though so my levels are dropping a lot at night.  I see you have an air pump on at night, so I'd assume your CO2 levels are dropping a lot aswell?  If I were you, I'd start turning it on an hour before, to start with and see if it helps with the algae.

You have the same amount of lighting as me, but your tank being slightly smaller, yours is higher light.  I'm running my CO2 to give the drop checker a light green colour.  I've no idea how many bps, because it's coming out too fast to count.

I'm loving the automatic water change system - I'm hoping to do one on my tank when I move house this year.  How exactly did you do yours?

Anyway, brilliant tank, lovely discus, you're obviously doing something right!


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## Tony Swinney (29 Jan 2009)

Thanks again for all the comments   

The setup 'behind the scenes' seem to be well liked !  The tank was going to sit on the sideboard you can see in one of the pics, but we had the builders in last January, and I joked with them one morning about knocking a hole through the 12" wall for the tank to sit in.  When I came back that evening they'd done it !  

The resulting bill was a little startling, but looking back it was well worth it.  Having all the stuff hidden, but in plenty of space, and having water supplies, a sink, and drains right at the back of the tank make everything so much easier.



> You can come anyway, come when i have the new wilds in a couple of weeks



Will do James, would love to see them.



> I'd do the water change in 1 shot, just before you auto dose the ferts and start the CO2. Speaking of which - you say 4bpm - 4 bubbles per minute? I presume you mean per second? On my 200 litre I run at 2bps to get to bottle green, 3 or 4 bps to get to lime green. But this depends on the size of your bubbles really. With your lighting I'd shoot for a nice grass green as a minimum
> 
> I suspect you need to do EI to get to the 20ppm NO3 target EI folks go for
> 
> You could add some Osmocote to the substrate as per JamesC



Thanks Ray.  Yep I meant 4bps !  The DC went to grass green this morning in error, but has been at bottle green all afternoon.  I think I'll gradually tweak it up a little and see how the fish get on.  I need to do some more reading up on EI by the sound of things, and I'll look up Osmocote too, ta.



> If I were you, I'd start turning it on an hour before, to start with and see if it helps with the algae.


That makes sense hellohefalump - the CO2 is definitely somewhat depleted in the morning.  I'll try starting it earlier.

The auto water change is pretty simple at the moment.  Theres a 6mm siphon pipe from the tank to the drain, with a ball valve inline.  I adjusted the valve to allow it to drain 50l every 24hours.  There is an AquaDigital top up kit, which pumps water from the storage tank to the maintank when the float switch activates.

I've now ordered an Eheim pump to replace the siphon though, so I can drain the water out with a timer.  I'll put a T into the filter outlet and connect it to the pump, and onto the drain.  Then have the pump switch on for enough time to take 50l out of the tank before the lights CO2 / ferts are added in the morning.  Should be a project for this weekend   

Cheers

Tony


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## hellohefalump (29 Jan 2009)

> The auto water change is pretty simple at the moment. Theres a 6mm siphon pipe from the tank to the drain, with a ball valve inline. I adjusted the valve to allow it to drain 50l every 24hours. There is an AquaDigital top up kit, which pumps water from the storage tank to the maintank when the float switch activates.
> 
> I've now ordered an Eheim pump to replace the siphon though, so I can drain the water out with a timer. I'll put a T into the filter outlet and connect it to the pump, and onto the drain. Then have the pump switch on for enough time to take 50l out of the tank before the lights CO2 / ferts are added in the morning. Should be a project for this weekend



brilliant!  You're so brilliant!


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## Simon D (29 Jan 2009)

Stunning set-up, I think everyone would agree the behind scenes eye-opener is fantastic. I'm so jealous

EI is the way to go. I'm looking forward to Ed's reactor too! Shame I won't be able to use it unitil the next tank though.


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## StevenA (29 Jan 2009)

It must be great to have the room (and the brains  ) to try all that automation stuff Tony. Will you post more pictures of the revised W/C rig? Very interested


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## jay (29 Jan 2009)

Great set up. Bet the discus love that water!!
Like the redmoor root hanging down like that, ever thought of adding another?
Maybe some bolbitis attached to them?

Also, I really wouldn't worry about the HC, personally, I'd get rid of it. continue that nice clump of tenellus you got going and maybe get some blyxa in there too.

I love the look of the 'scape when you first set up. (with the redmoor "tree") It looks lke a surrealist desert landscape.

Beautiful


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## Ed Seeley (29 Jan 2009)

Cracking set up mate!


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## LondonDragon (29 Jan 2009)

Best setup I have seen on a planted tank, wish I had the space to do that  Looks awsome 
Looks forward to the rescape


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## Tony Swinney (30 Jan 2009)

Thanks again    If I can get the plants half as good as the equipment setup I'll be happy   



> EI is the way to go


I spent most of last night reading up on EI / PMDD and DIY TPN+ Simon !!!   Still need to get my head around it, as the daily auto water change is causing me an arithmatical mental block  :!:  I've got most of the dry ferts now, just have to work out how much to use and when  :?:  :!:  :?: 



> Will you post more pictures of the revised W/C rig? Very interested


Sure will Tourney - bits should arrive today.



> Great set up. Bet the discus love that water!!
> Like the redmoor root hanging down like that, ever thought of adding another?
> Maybe some bolbitis attached to them?


Thanks Jay, the discus seem pretty happy.  There are three pairs in there who each lay eggs every 7 - 10 days - one pair on the redmoor, one pair on a certain pebble, and one pair on the rear glass   
I've got another root to try hanging in there, and (spookily !) Bolbitis is arriving today from AE, and Blyxa went in on Wednesday !  The root that is in there wont actually come out of the tank without pulling the whole lot out of the wall, which is not happening  

I struggle with the Tenellus.  It puts out quite a few runners, but they really struggle to get a hold in the sand, so as soon as a Cory comes along they release and become flailing trails of runners in the water.  Maybe once the 'planted' tank arrives and gets going I'll take this one back towards the 'desert' scape   

Cheers
Tony

Blyxa (cheers Steve) :


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## keymaker (30 Jan 2009)

Stunning, Tonser. Congratulations! I back Tourney's request: give us more technology images!


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## billy boy (30 Jan 2009)

Cracking set up    The set up behind your tank must be a fish keeper's answer to a garden shed   Do you have a kettle in there?


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## BINKSY1973 (30 Jan 2009)

Yep as every body else cracking set up.

Love the behind the scenes set up too, wish i had room to do something like that, so much room for more thing to fiddle with.   



			
				billy boy said:
			
		

> Do you have a kettle in there?



Don't forget the TV too.   

Cheers Gordon.


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## aaronnorth (30 Jan 2009)

excellent setup


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## steve2tanks (30 Jan 2009)

Tonser said:
			
		

> Blyxa (cheers Steve)


Your welcome  

You got any more pictures of that room


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## Thomas McMillan (30 Jan 2009)

This is a class setup, I like the feel to it. It's great you've got fish breeding in there (good selection too). I also like the redmoor that suspended - again, very natural and a nice feature.


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## StevenA (1 Feb 2009)

What's the make of you're fert autodoser Tony, and how have you got it setup? Thinking about an autodoser myself, and considering my options.


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## johnny70 (1 Feb 2009)

Beautiful tank, stunning discus you have their


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## Tony Swinney (2 Feb 2009)

More pics of the 'behind the scenes' coming soon - keetle an' everything !   



> I also like the redmoor that suspended - again, very natural and a nice feature.


Thanks Thomas !  I keep wondering if its better that way up, or the other way as a tree.  I've added a second root now, and some Bolbitis too, so I'll post some new pics and see what folks think.



> What's the make of you're fert autodoser Tony, and how have you got it setup? Thinking about an autodoser myself, and considering my options.



Hi Tourney.  Its an AquaMedic 3000 dosing pump.  I just have it on a timer so it comes on and pumps the correct amount of TPN+ / EasyCarbo in to the tank.  It seems pretty reliable, and you can get spares for them from Swell if you need to.

Tony


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## REDSTEVEO (2 Feb 2009)

Tonser said:
			
		

> More pics of the 'behind the scenes' coming soon - keetle an' everything !
> 
> Will you be taking the future photographs of the behind the scenes room lying on your bed
> 
> Steve.


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## LondonDragon (3 Feb 2009)

Tonser said:
			
		

> Hi Tourney.  Its an AquaMedic 3000 dosing pump.  I just have it on a timer so it comes on and pumps the correct amount of TPN+ / EasyCarbo in to the tank.  It seems pretty reliable, and you can get spares for them from Swell if you need to.


Could you explain further how your use this? I just purchased an SP3000 too to dose the ferts, how do you dose the EasyCarbo, do you have a seconds timer? from the tests I did mine doses 40ml per minute which is what I am going to base my all-in-one DIY fert solution on.
Some images of the containers you use etc... would be helpfull, Many Thanks


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## Tony Swinney (5 Feb 2009)

Good to chat earlier LD, and thanks for your help on the NutriCalc.

I've got the DC to a steady grass green now, and have redone the waterchange to drop out and replace 20% of the water before lights on in the morning, rather than over the 24hr period it was doing.

After 8 days the Limnophilia is rocketing away, and the Rotalla Wallichi and Ludwigia Arcuata are growing too.  The HC is struggling, but there are now signs of new growth so we'll see how it goes.  The Blyxa seems to have stabilised after its replanting stress too.

Heres some pics from today:

Excuse the cowering discus - they werent expecting the lights to go back on   









Limnophilia Hetrophylia:




Rotalla Wallichi:




Ludwigia Arcata:




HC:




Blyxa and Pogostemon Helferi:




Bolbitis:




Moonlighting:


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## Tony Swinney (5 Feb 2009)

And for those who like the techy stuff....here's more from the other side:

the timers:




the CO2 and air pump:




the maintenance equipment:




the pumps:




the drip feeder I'm using for the ferts at the moment, as the SP3000 motor has packed up    




and the eheims and UV, gaurded by "the girls"


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## Garuf (5 Feb 2009)

Discus really aren't my thing, at least non-wild strains, but those I am jealous over, cowering or not. Wonderful fish and a promising scape.


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## steve2tanks (5 Feb 2009)

Once thats filled in a little more it will look great


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## aaronnorth (6 Feb 2009)

nice photo with the dogs lol

You have an awesome setup.


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## Thomas McMillan (6 Feb 2009)

i think the new root is too central fo rmy liking, maybe move it more to the left


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## Tony Swinney (6 Feb 2009)

Thanks again guys. I know what you mean about the new root Thomas, but there is a brace across the centre of the tank stopping it going any further left. Might try moving it round some more tomorrow.

Tony


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## LondonDragon (6 Feb 2009)

I am not a fan of the roots being displayed that way, but its a good start and nice shade for the discus 
Love "the girls" too having one of my own hehehe keep us posted


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## TDI-line (7 Feb 2009)

Great pics, again.

What temperature do you run your tank at for the discus?


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## Tony Swinney (7 Feb 2009)

Morning.

Hi LD.  I'm not convinced about the roots, but I'm going to live with them for a while.  The plan was always to have them the other way up, and grow mosses on them, but you have to try these things   

The temp is 28.5 degrees TDI

Tony


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## Mark Evans (7 Feb 2009)

hi tony,

thats a pretty impressive set up you have there. its sounds as if your coming from the fish side of things to the planted/scaped side...great.

   i wouldn't worry too much about the placement of the wood for the time being, just as long as you understand why it's placement maybe incorrect from a 'scaping perspective. plenty of time to sort that.

i reckon, the next attempt at a scape maybe pretty good.


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## Garuf (7 Feb 2009)

The scape you have reminds me in spirit a lot of this:


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## Tony Swinney (7 Feb 2009)

No fair Garuf !  Leaving me in suspense like that, without showing the pic !


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## Garuf (7 Feb 2009)

But there is a photo there?  :?


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## Tony Swinney (7 Feb 2009)

> your coming from the fish side of things to the planted/scaped side...great.



You got it Mark     The discus tank will remain primarily just that, rather than a fully 'scaped' tank. but its great to grow stuff in, see how that goes, and learn the CO2 / EI ropes etc.

Shouldnt be too long before my first attempt at scaping gets going


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## Tony Swinney (7 Feb 2009)

Oh, not showing up for me Garuf


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## StevenA (7 Feb 2009)

No Garuf, I can't see it either, just says "image".


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## aaronnorth (7 Feb 2009)

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_XCOzLIip0QU/S ... 1009_w.jpg

I have taken the link from Gareth's original post so you should be able to access it now


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## Garuf (7 Feb 2009)

How odd. Here's a link:
http://faao.blogspot.com/search/label/6 ... om%20musgo


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## Tony Swinney (10 Feb 2009)

I see it now !  Just for it to have the faintest hint of a Filipe Oliveira tank, even if only in spirit has made my day      A long long way to go though.

Thanks Garuf


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## Tony Swinney (10 Feb 2009)

I've started the EI doing this morning, using James' "All in One" solution.  Dosing will be daily, before lights on via a dosing pump (or at least it will be once the replacement motor arrives for it   - for now its dosed by me    ).

Thanks to London Dragon for running the numbers through NutriCalc, and for the number crunching on his AllInOne thread which helped alot !   

KNO3 - 5.22g 3 times a week
K2SO4 - 2.4g 3x/wk
KH2PO4 - 1.48g 3x/wk
MgSO4 - 13.53g 3x/wk
Trace - 0.91g 3x/wk


The pump doses 40ml / min so will be timed on for 1 min per day, which is the minimum the timer will allow.  I've made up a 1400ml solution which should last for 35 days, so I'll replace it every month.  Mixing for 35 days also means you can just multiply the above amounts by 15:  (( #g x 3) / 7) x35 = #g x 15

So added to 1400ml of RO water is:

KNO3:  5.22g  x 15 = 79g (rounding up)
K2SO4:  2.4 x 15 = 36g
KH2PO4: 1.48 x 15 = 23g
MgSO4: 13.53 x 15 = 203g
Trace: 0.91 x 15 = 14g
E300 Asorbic Acid: 1.4g
E202 Potassium Sorbate: 0.56g

It'll be interesting to see how the solution settles after 24 hours, as I wonder whether it'll need mixing up before each dosing which will make the pump use tricky.

Any thoughts on all this would be appreciated, as I'm dabbling in new waters here !  

Cheers

Tony


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## Ray (10 Feb 2009)

Tonser said:
			
		

> I see it now !  Just for it to have the faintest hint of a Filipe Oliveira tank, even if only in spirit has made my day      A long long way to go though.


There is no rocket science to that tank (but I do want one just like it) - its just an E.Tenellus carpet with crypts, anubias, ferns and amazon swords.  With your setup, CO2 and EI dosing it should start to look more and more like that every week!


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## beeky (12 Feb 2009)

It would be nice to see the new root with the original piece of angled into the tank more, although I know you said you can't move it because of the brace. Could you take a bit off?


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## sisko (12 Feb 2009)

Wish I had room for a setup this size!! I'm jealous!    Well done mate!!


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## Tony Swinney (13 Feb 2009)

Thanks guys.



> It would be nice to see the new root with the original piece of angled into the tank more



I might just try that Beeky, I reckon I could move it to the other side of the brace.  I'm starting to get a feel for a direction for this tank now, so watch this space  

Cheers

Tony


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## Ace (13 Feb 2009)

That is one of the coolest looking tanks ive seen. I love the whole in the wall idea of fish tanks, and your tank looks clean and all your fish look healthy. Nice work!


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## StevenA (17 Feb 2009)

Hi Tony, with regards to the solution settling, and mixing possibly required, I read in a thread by LondonDragon that he was going to have an air pump set to run for about 2 minutes in the fert container before the dosing pump starts, to mix the solution a bit. I am also going to try this method as it seems to make a bit of sense


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## LondonDragon (17 Feb 2009)

Not to Hijack the thread but here is my holding bottle. Air line comes in through the bottom of the bottle. Cone shape helps mix the solution better so it doesn't settle anywhere. No air stone just the inline with a non-return valve so the solution doesn't go back into the pump. Hole at the top of the bottle for filling with a funnel and for dosing tube.







Hope this helps


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## Tony Swinney (17 Feb 2009)

No problem Paulo - thanks for posting it   

I'm just trying to work it out though   IS the main bottle with the solution in, inverted in a half bottle, with a hole drilled in the cap for the airline to go through ?

Tony


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## LondonDragon (17 Feb 2009)

Tonser said:
			
		

> No problem Paulo - thanks for posting it
> 
> I'm just trying to work it out though   IS the main bottle with the solution in, inverted in a half bottle, with a hole drilled in the cap for the airline to go through ?
> 
> Tony



Drilled cap with the air tube siliconed into it. Then then I cut up another bottle in half and there is a hole at the bottom for the air tube, its just to hold the main bottle which is inverted into its place 
I am not very good at explaining all this stuff lol I should have done a step by step hehe


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## Tony Swinney (17 Feb 2009)

Makes perfect sense now Paulo - does the airline mix up the solution enough before dosing ?

Tony


----------



## LondonDragon (18 Feb 2009)

Tonser said:
			
		

> Makes perfect sense now Paulo - does the airline mix up the solution enough before dosing ?
> 
> Tony



I used it to mix the solution when I made it, there was a couple of inches of powder at the bottom of the bottle and it mixed them up very fast indeed. I have not used the air pump since as I wanted to try it first without it to see how it did. So far it seems to be working fine. I have placed the dosing tube right at the bottom of the bottle.


----------



## StevenA (7 Mar 2009)

Tony forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I think you said somewhere that you had to get a new motor for you're sp3000 dosing pump. If this is correct, can you tell me where you got it from, and is it easy to fit?


----------



## Tony Swinney (7 Mar 2009)

Hi Tourney

I've got a new pump on order, but its been on order for 3 weeks so far !!  Once it arrives, they are very simple to fit.

Mine is ordered from http://www.fishfurfeather.com, but I've just looked for the link and they've removed the listing     Hopefully they're just out of stock.

In theory, any Aqua Medic dealer can order their spares.

Tony


----------



## Tony Swinney (17 Mar 2009)

Morning all

Thought I'd update with some new pics   

I've had a little change around in the tank, mainly over the right hand side, with the redmoor moving across, and the vallis flowing through it.  I've moved the spraybars to the top left and right sides, so the right hand one fires along the surface from right to left, and the left hand one fires down at 45 degrees from left to right.  Theres also a Koralia 2 hidden in the top right corner.  Seems to planty of movement throughout the tank now   

The Blyxa has really started to take, as has the Rotala Rotundifolia,  Ceratopteris thalictroides and the Limnophilia.  The HC never took hold in the sand - the corys just uprooted it all the time, so that has gone.  Theres a few bunches of Lilaepsis which seem to be taking hold, and a couple of clumps of Uticularia Graminifolia which are also doing OK.  These carpeting plants seem to have struggled in this tank, so I'm hoping the improved flow will help them along.

I have a full rescape in mind now, so once the new tank arrives I may move everything out of this one and redo it.  Until then its a great for just planting things and seeing how they grow   

Cheers

Tony


----------



## TDI-line (17 Mar 2009)

Lovely photos Tony.


----------



## Tony Swinney (12 May 2009)

Just a couple of new pics from tonight, as its been a couple of months   

The Blyxa has really taken off - its a plant that  really seems to like dicsus tanks.  Its due a trim now, so I'll split it down and spread it out a bit I think.  The limnophilia on the left side is also growing at a pace   

The Bolbitis on the right hand side, has finally started to produce new leaves - it didnt seem to grow for ages, but now is doing well    The various carpet plants I've tried in there havent taken at all - lileaposis, pogostemon helferi, and UG have all struggled, and the e tennellus in the middle has never grown above about 40mm, and grows very slowly.  I've added a Koralia to the lower left hand side to get the flow returning along the bottom of the tank so I'll see if that helps.

Please excuse the state of the front of the tank - it needs a clean up.  

Tony


----------



## altaaffe (13 May 2009)

Wow, is all I can say, that really is coming along well.

I am one that does like the effect of the roots coming down, I have it like that on my Malawi tank and the fish seem to appreciate it a lot - I'm sure your Discus do too.


----------



## LondonDragon (13 May 2009)

Looking great Tony, that Blyxa is coming along very nicely, shame mine doesn't grow at all haha Loving the tank and the Discus must be well pleased with their home  some nice shadows for them too.


----------



## aaronnorth (13 May 2009)

awesome tank, i love the shadow pics, i must of missed them last time.


----------



## hellohefalump (20 May 2009)

The difference in this tank is amazing!  Fab blyxa!

I love your discus too, and your photography.  Keep those pictures coming... 

Interesting you keep shrimp with discus... I would have assumed they'd be eaten!


----------



## Steve Smith (20 May 2009)

Looks fantastic Tony   Will be interested to see what you do with all that new redmoor wood you bought on Saturday


----------



## Superman (20 May 2009)

Beautiful tony.


----------



## Tony Swinney (20 May 2009)

Thanks guys and gals   



			
				hellohefalump said:
			
		

> Interesting you keep shrimp with discus... I would have assumed they'd be eaten!



Hi Helena - the amanos are all quite big now (45mm+) so the discus dont bother them.  I did try some cherries in there a year or so ago, but they disappeared within a couple of days    Though there was alot less plant life in there back then for them to hide in.



			
				SteveUK said:
			
		

> Will be interested to see what you do with all that new redmoor wood you bought on Saturday



Haha, thats for the other tank (and the stuff in this tank might be joining it too     ). That said its soaking now as when I tested it, it floated - just as well George decided not to use it on Sunday    I got a rock or two at the weekend so I have a few scaping options   

I'm going to have a big tidy up in here tomorrow, so I'll post some fresh pics after that.

Cheers

Tony


----------



## Steve Smith (20 May 2009)

Yes, redmoor drys out pretty quickly.  It doesn't take on that much water really.  I've hacked into a piece that's been soaking for months, and it was only really wet down to a few mm.


----------



## Goodygumdrops (20 May 2009)

This tank is absolutely beautiful,for me,one of the nicest I have seen.Don't know if it's the discus or what,but just the overall effect is stunning,I bet you could sit and watch it for hours,visitors must be well impressed!!


----------



## Jur4ik (21 May 2009)

Hi Tonser,
I have a planted Discus tank too and I would like to know your fert-dosing and maintenance regime.

Tank is beautiful, Discus look realy healthy too 
I love the Santarem best, they look kinda way natural, wild


----------



## John Starkey (21 May 2009)

Hi tony,I must say you are a fast learner this is going from strength to strength,the discus look in superb health,take a look at Plymouth discus for their discus food variety,
Regards john


----------



## rawr (21 May 2009)

Hey Tony, nice to meet you the other day!  I have to say, I've always liked this tank from the day you posted it, it's got an instant likeness to it. As John said, it's going from strength to strength so keep up the good work and keep us posted!


----------



## Tony Swinney (22 May 2009)

Goodygumdrops said:
			
		

> This tank is absolutely beautiful,for me,one of the nicest I have seen.Don't know if it's the discus or what,but just the overall effect is stunning,I bet you could sit and watch it for hours,visitors must be well impressed!!



Thanks Goody    Yep, it does tend to grab visitors attention a little when they walk in !



			
				Jur4ik said:
			
		

> I have a planted Discus tank too and I would like to know your fert-dosing and maintenance regime.



Hi Ju4ik, pleased you like it    The maintenance is an automated water change system, changing about 20% of the volume every morning using RO prepared water.  This is done by 6am when the CO2 clicks on.  Dosing is done around 8am and lights on from 9am to 5pm.

I dose using a variation of the All In One Solution from James Planted Tank (the plantedtank.co.uk). I've been doing it for 3 months, now and have tweaked the mix month by month, so I am now mixing this:

175g KNO3
54g K2SO4
303g MgSO4
33g KH2PO4
27g Trace
2g E300 Asorbic Acid
1g E202 Potassium Sorbate

into 1400ml RO water, and dose 60ml per day ( I found I had to up the dosage from 40ml daily, due to the 20% daily w/c )



			
				john starkey said:
			
		

> Hi tony,I must say you are a fast learner this is going from strength to strength,the discus look in superb health,take a look at Plymouth discus for their discus food variety,
> Regards john



Hi John, thanks mate !  Great to meet you at the weekend, and sorry I left without saying bye, I couldnt find you !  Thanks for the reminder on the discus food from Plymouth, I might order some in and give it a go.   



			
				rawr said:
			
		

> Hey Tony, nice to meet you the other day!  I have to say, I've always liked this tank from the day you posted it, it's got an instant likeness to it. As John said, it's going from strength to strength so keep up the good work and keep us posted!



Thanks Thomas - good to meet you too   

Tony


----------



## Dan Crawford (22 May 2009)

Hi Tony, your tank is looking sweet and those discus look like happy big bad boys! I'm still amazed by the "behind the scenes" area, that must have taken some serious thinking about, mind blowing


----------



## Tony Swinney (1 Aug 2009)

Dan Crawford said:
			
		

> Hi Tony, your tank is looking sweet and those discus look like happy big bad boys! I'm still amazed by the "behind the scenes" area, that must have taken some serious thinking about, mind blowing



Cheers Dan

Its been a while since I've updated this thread, as the tank has just been going along on its own, doing its thing !  I grabbed a couple of snaps this morning, when I was checking a piece of stone that might go in a rescape soon, so just thought I'd post 'em up.

The tank is in an open plan area with full height windows, and no curtains, so it needs to be shot at night really for blackout, but these'll give you an idea of where its at.  Its also set into the wall, so no chance of lighting it properly either    

Theres not really any structure to this at the minute, as I tend to just add plants to it to see how they go, but, there are areas I'm really liking      The peacock moss ( thanks Heather   ) is really beautiful, it just looks so soft and luxurious, so I'm going to do more with that soon.  The anubias and bolbitis ( cheers Dan  ) are working well together in the roots too, along with the leggy blyxa coming up amongst them - I really like this area of the tank   









The Blyxa loves it in there, and just keeps on growing ! The left hand side is a bit of a 'storage area' at the minute, with a variety of crypts, and the Limnophilia hanging around in there   

The lump of seiryu stone you see below, was to be main stone in a planned rescape, but having placed it in there this morning its just not big enough - and its 6.5kg     









Cheers

Tony


----------



## George Farmer (1 Aug 2009)

Wonderful, Tony!  I love the right hand side in particular.


----------



## Tony Swinney (1 Aug 2009)

Thanks George, me too   

I'm in 2 minds whether to replicate it on the left hand side, and create a 'U' layout, or rip it all out and go 'gumi style - I know which will be easier   

Tony


----------



## TDI-line (1 Aug 2009)

Stunning Tony, i like the left hand side better.   Nah, it's all great.


----------



## Gill (1 Aug 2009)

WOw this is one of the best Dicus Tanks I have seen.


----------



## Mark Evans (1 Aug 2009)

A tank of 2 halfs. 

the right side is wicked tony, maybe just removing the stone would help improve the left hand side?.....even your quick snaps are brilliant   damn you man!


----------



## rawr (1 Aug 2009)

I really like the right hand side too. It's progressed great!  

A Discus Iwagumi? That's a new one...


----------



## Tony Swinney (1 Aug 2009)

Thanks Dan, and Gill   



			
				saintly said:
			
		

> the right side is wicked tony, maybe just removing the stone would help improve the left hand side?.....even your quick snaps are brilliant  damn you man



The stone was only in there for half an hour Mark - I just wanted to see the scale of it in the tank.  Theres a clear sand area  for the corys underneath where it was sitting.  The quick snaps arent so good if you saw them hires - lots of reflections, and lots of floaty stuff in the water - mainly old blyxa   :? 



			
				rawr said:
			
		

> A Discus Iwagumi? That's a new one...



The thought has crossed my mind Thomas, but I'm not convinced yet, plus I've nowhere to house the discus if I was to do a full rescape.

I might just do the left in the same style as the right though


----------



## lljdma06 (1 Aug 2009)

This discus tank is gorgeous.  I'd just take out the rock and put more Blyxa.  

Looks great.  The right side is particularly impressive.


----------



## John Starkey (1 Aug 2009)

Hi Tony, I like the right side and I think the left side would look nice if it was similar,
regards john.


----------



## Tony Swinney (4 Aug 2009)

Thanks Lij and John - I agree   

In fact, tonight I pulled all the crypts and all of the blyxa out and cleaned up all the sand 

I had a nice piece of redmoor to add to the top left, and tied Bolbitis, peacock moss and an anubias to it.  Then spent 4 hours trimming and cleaning (there was some hair algae on it) the Blyxa, to give me 100 stems, which are now planted in an arc, with a clear sand area in the centre.  I also added the cryptys in and around it too, with Balansae at the back, and some parva at the front.  

Pics in the morning, but now I'm sitting down with a beer, and letting the sideboard recover from me kneeling on it all evening   

I only reused about half the blyxa, so the other half is available in the For Sale section   

Tony


----------



## jay (4 Aug 2009)

Your photography always makes everything seem as though its a true landscape... the lighting is incredible.

And give me those rasboras!!!    beautiful.


----------



## Tony Swinney (5 Aug 2009)

A couple of crappy pics of the new left hand side.  Its gonna take a while to get that wilder look, that the right side had, but once the blyxa starts growing up through the redmoors again it should be pretty nice.

If anyone has any anubias going spare I need a couple !

Thanks

Tony


----------



## Dan Crawford (5 Aug 2009)

That looks awesome mate!


----------



## Mark Webb (5 Aug 2009)

looking great Tony


----------



## Jase (5 Aug 2009)

Wow. Looks awesome now, let alone how it'll look when the Blyxa grows in. Loving the new left hand side


----------



## samc (5 Aug 2009)

i missed the updates on this! the new scape is gonna look awsome when filled in. great tank


----------



## glenn (5 Aug 2009)

how do you have that left had peice of wood held up?
looking good now that blyax forest! has had a trim lol


----------



## Steve Smith (5 Aug 2009)

That looks so much more complete now mate!  I really like it!


----------



## Stu Worrall (5 Aug 2009)

didnt spot this update, tanks looking great tony.  I think the U would look really good in there


----------



## TBRO (8 Aug 2009)

So much nicer with the wood on both sides, like a little side channel off the Amazon ! Do the discus stick to the wood or do they venture out into the open space? Gonna look great when the moss grows in, great work - Tom


----------



## bazz (1 Sep 2009)

hi tonser,
i'm in awe of this tank, and dream of one day having a planted discus tank. i'm not nit-picking or anything, however the more i looked at it the more i couldn't get my head around the fact that it is only 320l, it looks so much bigger. i have a 300l tank albeit a corner one, but would never dream of putting discus in it, just too small. eventually my curiosity got the better of me and i calculated (metric equivalent) and concluded that it holds 405l. i know you now have a few lumps of wood in there, but those early shots show a fairly empty tank with regards to scaping and substrate.
i'm sure there is a valid reason for this (probably my mathematics) but would love to know!
cheers and take care,
bazz!


----------



## Tony Swinney (9 Sep 2009)

Its been a while...

Thanks Dan, Mark, Jase, Sam, Glenn, Steve, Stu, TBRO and Bazz      



			
				glenn said:
			
		

> how do you have that left had peice of wood held up?


Hi Glenn, I screw 1 x 1 battons across the 'trunks' of the redmoors, and then hang them across the top of the tank braces.



			
				TBRO said:
			
		

> Do the discus stick to the wood or do they venture out into the open space?


They venture out most of the time TBRO, particularly at feeding time, when they hand feed in the middle of the tank     If theres sudden motion that scares them they'll retreat to the branches, but soon come out to play again.



			
				bazz said:
			
		

> eventually my curiosity got the better of me and i calculated (metric equivalent) and concluded that it holds 405l


Hi Bazz.  The actual water area is  150cm wide x 50cm high and 45cm tall, giving a volume of 337 litres, then I take a bit off for the redmoor braches and ended up with the 320l figure  


Sine the last 'rescape' I had a massive outbreak of spirogyra, which I think was caused by an ammonia spike from moving all the sand around - that sand hadnt really been shifted for about 2 years !

I've been trying to find the time to do a full blackout for a few days, but with the new baby and all that hasnt happened.  Having said that, I reduced the fert dosing by half, increased my excel dosing by 50% and reduced the photo period by 1 hour and its really helped eliminate it.  I think in another couple of weeks it will be all clear.  The only downside is that the blyxa has really suffered with alot of it melting, but I'm focusing on clearing the algae then I'll get back on to loking after the plants   

Tony


----------



## andyh (10 Sep 2009)

Firstly let me say i think that this is the best Discus scaped tank i have seen!  

I have a question though, how are you having such success with the plants when your substrate is silver sand?
Have i missed a section in this journal where that's explained? Or are simply just dosing Ferts.

I ask as i am planning on a Corydoras setup soon, and had been looking at silver sand for a beach section, but still wanted to have lots of nice plants. i suppose what i am saying is i didn't think it was possible to have such success with a sand substrate?

keep the pics coming!


----------



## Tony Swinney (10 Sep 2009)

andyh said:
			
		

> Firstly let me say i think that this is the best Discus scaped tank i have seen!



Thanks Andy, its going to get better too     



			
				andyh said:
			
		

> I have a question though, how are you having such success with the plants when your substrate is silver sand?
> Have i missed a section in this journal where that's explained? Or are simply just dosing Ferts.



Errr, I'm not sure to be honest ! I doe all in one ferts daily to the water column, and there are lots of TPN capsules buried in the sand, but other than that its just silver sand.  To be honest the only really strong growers are the blyxa and was the vallis before I pulled it.  The cyperus helferi and crypts survive OK but dont thrive.  There seems to be a correlation between discus tanks and successful Blyxa - myself, Dan (TDI-Line) and James (james3200) have all had great growth in our discus tanks - perhaps its the amount of waste they produce ?   Its interesting that having moved all the sand around last month, which caused an ammonia spike and the spyragyra outbreak, the blyxa has really struggled to take a hold.

Tony


----------



## chilled84 (10 Sep 2009)

That is what i call takeing it to the exstreme! O my god! Very nice thou. Dont blame ya. God all out if thats what you like. You only live once.


----------



## andyh (11 Sep 2009)

Tonser said:
			
		

> andyh said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Tony with ref to the Dan aka TDI-line's tank, i was round at his house purchasing some bits the other day and all i saw was a very impressive 7ft empty tank! I not sure i believe he grew stuff!    (Andy sits waiting for the torrent of abuse!)


----------



## Tony Swinney (16 Nov 2009)

I got some time to spend on this tank this afternoon, so had it had a little rearrangement, some trimming and a bit of cleanup too.

The last few trims I've done have involved pulling all the blyxa, trimming it all down and then replanting it.   However the last time i did that it disturbed the sand so much that I had a horrible spyragyra outbreak for weeks.  So this time I've added some rocks infront of the blyxa to hide the leggy bits     I've replanted a few crypts,and some blyxa stems around the rocks to bed them in a little, and have also added some narrow leaf java ferns.

The peacock moss on the left hand branch is doing really well, but I pulled it apart a bit today and tied it back over alot more of the branch than it had been covering.  Its going to look crappy for a couple of weeks until it grows its shape back.

For the first time in a long time, I'm actually liking how this tank is looking, and with some more growth in the right places it should look good.  A few quick pics from this evening.

Tony






















I guess the discus liked the maintenance, as within an hour of finishing they'd laid...


----------



## viktorlantos (16 Nov 2009)

beaty shots. the first photo looks amazing. so much vivid colors. 
and the scape rearangement looks good too. well done mate


----------



## rawr (16 Nov 2009)

This must be an amazing tank to just sit and watch (when you get time of course, I know you're a busy guy lately )! I didn't realise you had that many Discus in there.


----------



## samc (16 Nov 2009)

its looking better very time i see it   

good to see you about again too


----------



## Mark Webb (17 Nov 2009)

This is looking really marvellous. You have some beautiful Discus there. Outstanding Tony


----------



## flygja (17 Nov 2009)

Absolutely stunning! I've been dreaming of a discus tank for years but I haven't quite got the right combination of elements to ensure success. Don't your discus snack on your Yamato shrimps though?


----------



## zigur (21 Nov 2009)

Wow.Its Amazing!I love this thank and the last picture is fantastic!Please share with us how to grow up a discus fry!Im very excited!


----------



## Tony Swinney (21 Nov 2009)

viktorlantos said:
			
		

> beaty shots. the first photo looks amazing. so much vivid colors.
> and the scape rearrangement looks good too. well done mate



Thanks Victor, I feel its getting somewhere now   



			
				rawr said:
			
		

> This must be an amazing tank to just sit and watch (when you get time of course, I know you're a busy guy lately )! I didn't realise you had that many Discus in there.



Thanks Thomas.  It certainly is a nice tank to watch, and luckily Liberty is mesmerised by it too, so I can watch it with her   



			
				samc said:
			
		

> its looking better very time i see it    good to see you about again too



Cheers Sam, its good to be back looking after the tanks again - the optiwhite is next for an update  



			
				Mark Webb said:
			
		

> This is looking really marvellous. You have some beautiful Discus there. Outstanding Tony



Cheers Mark.  I'm tempted to move the discus on and rescape it as an Altums tank, but its rapidly becoming apparent that  Liberty likes the bright colours of the discus   



			
				flygja said:
			
		

> Absolutely stunning! I've been dreaming of a discus tank for years but I haven't quite got the right combination of elements to ensure success. Don't your discus snack on your Yamato shrimps though?



Hi flygja.  What do you mean by the right combination of elements ?  If you have a steady supply of good consistent water, and have time to do regular water changes you should be OK.  The yamatos are OK, but before the tank was heavily planted I did lose a few cherries to the discus   



			
				zigur said:
			
		

> Wow.Its Amazing!I love this thank and the last picture is fantastic!Please share with us how to grow up a discus fry!Im very excited!



Thanks zigur, I'm afraid I dont 'grow' the discus fry.  As they re in a community tank the eggs get eaten by the other fish.  If I were to breed them I would have to place the pairs into separate tanks.


----------



## bazz (6 Dec 2009)

stunning!!!


----------



## andyh (6 Dec 2009)

Hey Tonser

I know you have been busy with other things  

but please don't forget this journal, any more pics of your setup?

Andyh


----------



## Dan Crawford (6 Dec 2009)

Thats looking better than ever pal, really cool 8)


----------



## skinz180189 (6 Dec 2009)

What an awesome tank. I'd be very proud to own this.


----------



## TDI-line (6 Dec 2009)

andyh said:
			
		

> Tonser said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Stunning tank Tony, you must be very pleased.

Andy, your cruising.


----------



## Kevina (7 Dec 2009)

Hi Tonser, just after a bit of advise. I too have a planted discus tank (albeit not as beautiful as yours) and have enjoyed your journal immensly. Below is a pic of my tank. 60" x 20" x 18"





It is fairly lightly stocked, only having 4 discus and four cory sterbai and I run a FE CO2 system keeping the drop checker lime green and run a fluval 304 and a fluval 104 both on full flow.
I currently have been running 4 x 55w t5's and have been dosing 32ml of tropica plus weekly aftre a 50% water change with HMA filtered dionised water.
Anyway I noticed that you had an outbreak of spyrogyra and talked of doing a blackout. As it happens I currently have an outbreak of Spryogyra and have just put the blackout curtains over the tank for the next 3 days, and was wondering this.
1. Did you actually do a blackout and if so what was the outcome?
2. If you didn't do a blackout, but managed to eliminate the Spyro, how did you do it?
3. If you did the blackout, how were your discus after a 3 day blackout as I do worry about my fish as they are pets to me and not just fish, i.e did they feed ok after the blackout, were they themselves? How were the plants after the blackout?
Any advise would be kindly taken,
Many thanks and congratulations on your beautiful tank
Kev.


----------



## Cyworld (27 Dec 2009)

wowiwowi
Nice eggs!  
Did the eggs hatch yet?
Pictures please.


----------



## Tony Swinney (5 Jan 2010)

Hi all

I had a bit of time tonight on the discus tank, so thought I'd post a new pic.  Theres been quite a bit of BBA in there recently, particularly in the high flow areas   .  But, as I'm about to go away for a few weeks, I'm not going to worry about it un til I get back - god knows what state it will be in by then     The auto water change will continue to run daily, and a neighbour is going to come in every other day and dose my all in one ferts, and excel, and feed the fish, but that will be all it gets.  I've turned the photoperiod down to 5 hours per day too.





Typically, the cleanest Bolbitis leaf is not even in the tank   





Next pics in 5 weeks time !!

Tony


----------



## Tony Swinney (5 Jan 2010)

Kevina said:
			
		

> Hi Tonser, just after a bit of advise. I too have a planted discus tank (albeit not as beautiful as yours) and have enjoyed your journal immensly. Below is a pic of my tank. 60" x 20" x 18"
> 
> It is fairly lightly stocked, only having 4 discus and four cory sterbai and I run a FE CO2 system keeping the drop checker lime green and run a fluval 304 and a fluval 104 both on full flow.
> I currently have been running 4 x 55w t5's and have been dosing 32ml of tropica plus weekly aftre a 50% water change with HMA filtered dionised water.
> ...



Hi Kevin

Sorry I'd missed your post above     Thats a great looking tank you've got    How did the blackout work out ?  I'd be interested to hear, as I never did one !  I reduced the photoperiod by an hour a day and within 2 weeks it had all gone   

Just got to get shot of the BBA now   

Tony


----------



## flygja (7 Jan 2010)

Gosh, that is one beautiful looking tank! I'm seriously awestruck by the naturalness of it all.


----------



## mlgt (22 Feb 2010)

Im jealous and also it was a shame you couldnt make it to the meet over the weekend.
I would have been asking you a load of questions 

Im going to get a FE set up next week and hoping to start using that in my 180l tank. My tank is very basic at the moment as its a low tech set up.

However its always graet to see other discus set up like yourself for inspiration.


----------



## mlgt (7 Mar 2010)

Tonser, Ive skim read the tank spec, but do you dose daily ferts in your tank along with the co2 set up?

Reason Im asking is that I have started fert dosing on tank and do a 15% water change every other day to compensate for better water quality.

Londondragon worked out the calculations on my 180 tank and we both agreed to upgrade the tank size to 220l as it will compensate for my fert working out and water changes.

How do you deal with this ?


----------



## Tony Swinney (7 Mar 2010)

Hiya

Yep I dose daily, with an all in one fert.  I doubled the original dosage to take into account the 50L (approx 18%) daily water change.  Its a formula I am still tweaking, as I do get BBA forming on the older anubias leaves, and roots.

Tony


----------



## LondonDragon (7 Mar 2010)

Tonser said:
			
		

> as I do get BBA forming on the older anubias leaves, and roots.


Increasing PO4 should help with that.


----------



## JamesM (7 Mar 2010)

LondonDragon said:
			
		

> Tonser said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


PO4 only helps with GSA iirc Paulo.. BBA is a flow/inconsistent co2 issue.


----------



## LondonDragon (7 Mar 2010)

JamesM said:
			
		

> PO4 only helps with GSA iirc Paulo.. BBA is a flow/inconsistent co2 issue.


Getting the acronyms mixed up LOL my bad


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## Tony Swinney (7 Mar 2010)

Hi James / Paulo

Thanks for your inputs     The BBA confuses me  :!: 

It mainly appears on the roots of the anubias, which are in amongst the roots at the top of the tank.  They sit right in the flow of one of the koralia 2 powerheads.  The tank has a pair of Eheim 2128 filters and a pair of Koralia 2's, forming a circulating flow pattern.
CO2 is via FE, and runs 24/7, with the dc consistently lime coloured.

I dont think its flow / CO2 fluctuations.  It could be filter maintenance, or lack of - to be honest each filter only gets cleaned out every 6 weeks or so.

I also get BBA in the optiwhite tank (200L, same CO2 setup, 1 x eheim pro3 2073, 1 x tetratec EX1200 and 2 x koralia 1's), and I suffered it in the 10L nano too, which was running an Eheim 2128 !  Filter maintenance was similarly lax in all of them   

Tony


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## Garuf (7 Mar 2010)

Address the filter thing and see if there's a difference, is your water hard? I've found that hard water seems more prone to bba, I think it's because co2 is less available in harder water. This is pure speculation however.


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## Steve Smith (7 Mar 2010)

I think Tony's using RO/tap mixed if memory serves?


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## JamesM (7 Mar 2010)

From my experience, objects in front of high flow will suffer with BBA more than anywhere else. Possibly due to a plants inability to uptake anything in this flow (?). General maintenance is also an issue yes, as Tom Barr has previously said, BBA will hit any tank if you don't stay on top of it. Clean hardscape regular, and leaves of slow growers, such as abubius, crypts, etc. should be rubbed over now and then.

Along with surface scum, BBA is my biggest nightmare too bud, so you're not alone  I've had it hit every tank I've set up at some point. Usually when I get lethargic... "Bah, the water looks clear as gin, I'll just do a 30% w/c this week..."


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## Tony Swinney (7 Mar 2010)

SteveUK said:
			
		

> I think Tony's using RO/tap mixed if memory serves?



Yep RO / HMA mix on both tanks.  The water changes arent the problem either - the discus tank automatically disposes and replaces 50L (approx 18%) of the water every day, whilst the optiwhite automatically changes approx 15% of the water everyday.
I cant automate the filter cleaning   

Tony


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## JamesM (7 Mar 2010)

Tonser said:
			
		

> SteveUK said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


By doing this though, you are upsetting the balance of co2, so you should make sure no light is getting to the tank and the w/c is done a good three or 4 hours before lights on.


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## Tony Swinney (7 Mar 2010)

I was thinking that James.  The water drops out a midnight on each tank though, and takes about 2 hours to refill.  The CO2 is always on, so its back to lime green well before  the lights come on at 10am.

I've spent this weekend and last, doing major clean outs of both tanks, as they'd got pretty bad when I was a way for January.  I trimmed out all the plants with BBA on and removed any gravels with it on too. The redmoor in the optiwhite is covered in the stuff, so I'm gong to do a blackout on the starting tomorrow to kill it all off, then start the new regime of filter and tank cleanliness and see how it goes.

Tony


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## Garuf (7 Mar 2010)

If you've got bba in the optiwhite then personally I'd use excel and dose it on the bba and nuke the stuff.
It sounds like James has hit the nail on the head with the WC though! Do you have solenoids you could possibly use to see if that helps?


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## Tony Swinney (7 Mar 2010)

Yep I did just that today Garuf - Excel'd the BBA on the redmoor., but theres so much of it, and the tanks a full of cherry shrimp I have to be careful with the Excel, hence the blackout plan.

I've got solenoids on the CO2's, but I've been running them 24/7 lately on a lower flow, as I find it keeps the DC colour more consistent.  Whilst the water change introduces an amount of "non CO2'd" water, it happens several hours before lights come on at 10, infact the DC's are back to lime green by 7am.

Tony


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## JamesM (7 Mar 2010)

Tonser said:
			
		

> I was thinking that James.  The water drops out a midnight on each tank though, and takes about 2 hours to refill.  The CO2 is always on, so its back to lime green well before  the lights come on at 10am.
> 
> I've spent this weekend and last, doing major clean outs of both tanks, as they'd got pretty bad when I was a way for January.  I trimmed out all the plants with BBA on and removed any gravels with it on too. The redmoor in the optiwhite is covered in the stuff, so I'm gong to do a blackout on the starting tomorrow to kill it all off, then start the new regime of filter and tank cleanliness and see how it goes.
> 
> Tony


You want to try to do any water changes before lights on, not after lights off  I got in to that mess when designing with an American client who kept me up all night working. I found it much easier to do w/c after lights off at around 1 or 2am, but it just went from bad to worse. Going back to 10am w/c's really helped.

I personally think it will be hard to shift with a black out as its such a robust algae. If its just in one or two places spot dosing Excel is great, but otherwise you want to overdose the entire water column with Excel (watch the fish of course) just before a water change. Leave for a while then do the w/c and add a normal dose of Excel as per after water change instructions.


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## Garuf (7 Mar 2010)

Yeah, I found black outs didn't really work, excel and elbow grease got rid of it ultimately. That and upping PO4 dosing. BBA is such a hardy algae, alongside rihzo it's the hardest to kill outright.


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## JamesM (7 Mar 2010)

Think of co2 like a drug. After a full day wasted in the clouds on far out hippy stuff, plants will have one hell of a shock if you take away their super duper dope man. You need to ween the plants off the co2 slowly, then hit them with it again the next day.


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## Tony Swinney (7 Mar 2010)

JamesM said:
			
		

> You want to try to do any water changes before lights on, not after lights off  I got in to that mess when designing with an American client who kept me up all night working. I found it much easier to do w/c after lights off at around 1 or 2am, but it just went from bad to worse. Going back to 10am w/c's really helped.



Hey James.  Thats interesting - any idea why it worked better at 10am (assuming automated systems) ?  I would have thought that putting the fresh water in and giving it enough time to become CO2 rich before lights on would be more important ?

Thanks for the BBA thoughts, I'm just concerned about overdoing the Excel with the cherry shrimp in there.

Tony


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## JamesM (7 Mar 2010)

Tonser said:
			
		

> JamesM said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Read the above post bud


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## Tony Swinney (7 Mar 2010)

Haha, we got a bit out of sync up there !

I'm still not sure I follow it though   :?   Once the lights are off (4pm) the plants arent using CO2 anyway, so I change 15% of the water between midnight and 2am, then the CO2 keeps pumping in until lights on at 10am when the plants start using it again. I dont get why doing the water change just before lights on in the morning should be better, but would like to understand it   

[EDIT] or are you referring to using the solenoid, thus switching off the CO2 around lights off (4pm) so theres a gradual decrease through the night, along with a water change, then switching it back on a couple of hours before lights on to get it back up to level for the new day ?
Tony


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## keymaker (7 Mar 2010)

JamesM said:
			
		

> Think of co2 like a drug. After a full day wasted in the clouds on far out hippy stuff, plants will have one hell of a shock if you take away their super duper dope man. You need to ween the plants off the co2 slowly, then hit them with it again the next day.


This is something I would also be interested to know more about.  :idea:

If we take Tom Barr's measurement with the CO2 levels dropping hard right after the solenoid off / lights off moment then one would argue that doing water changes short after the photoperiod would not do any harm, as after the quick drop of CO2 levels water changes will not affect the environment - as far as carbon is concerned.

Looking at this you can see that CO2 level is practically at zero only 1 hour after turning the injection off.





(this is Tom Barr's image)

Obviously if there is some light getting to the tank and the CO2 is on 24 hours/day than you have a different situation.


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## JamesM (7 Mar 2010)

I had it explained to me perfectly once, but can't find the message! Grrr... how the comparison works with 24/7 co2 and ro water with slow fill etc. vs timed co2 and tap water I'm not sure. But plants will continue to use co2 for a period after the lights go out, then they eventually start putting out co2. Change the water before they've finished their fix and plants wont respond well. Unhealthy plants is an open invitation for any algae.

Clive is your man for this one bud as he solved all my problems with BBA within a few days. The 'Brickscape' was covered in the stuff for a while there 

Keymaker, I could very well be totally wrong bud, but this was how it was explained to me and it did solve my problem almost immediately. I'd love to know the exact causes for BBA too, as its been a right thorn in my side. I'll get the damn stuff in my low tech no water change tank after simply topping the water up. I've even left water stand for 24 hours with the same result


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## plantbrain (8 Mar 2010)

Add more CO2 slowly and consistently, provide good current to prevent gassing fish, use less light to provide max wiggle room with the lower/upper bounds. Buy really good equipment and dual stage regs, good valves etc.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## JamesM (8 Mar 2010)

So when is it preferable to do a water change, Tom? Before co2 on, or after co2 off? And what about running co2 24/7 like Tony does?


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## ceg4048 (8 Mar 2010)

Like Tom says, injection rate/flow will be the key. No surprises there. It just doesn't sound reasonable that a one or twice a week water change can induce the staghorn/BBA. I also can't imagine that it matters what time of day you do the change. If tank water is being replaced every day with low CO2 content water, then injection rate adjustment will also resolve this I think. The instability would have to be a long term daily occurrence to cause these issues. Plants in a basically good CO2 environment can deal with some short term irregularities like water changes, no doubt about that. This implies that your CO2/flow is fundamentally sub-par to begin with. This is true even for the 24/7 junkies.

One really cool thing about Toms chart is it tells solenoid users exactly when to turn the lights on.  

What you might be able to do to get some idea this is to add Excel at water change time to compensate in part for the CO2 drop off. 
I didn't have the energy to trawl though all 16 pages but lighting might be a factor here as well. I know at least a few of you guys to be sneaky Klingons. Are you using advanced thermonuclear gamma ray photon weapon technology above the tank (as some are wont to do)?  

Cheers,


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## JamesM (8 Mar 2010)

Well that shut me up!


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## Tony Swinney (8 Mar 2010)

Morning all, and thanks for the replies guys.



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> What you might be able to do to get some idea this is to add Excel at water change time to compensate in part for the CO2 drop off.
> I didn't have the energy to trawl though all 16 pages but lighting might be a factor here as well. I know at least a few of you guys to be sneaky Klingons. Are you using advanced thermonuclear gamma ray photon weapon technology above the tank (as some are wont to do)?



Hi Clive, the lighting is 2 x 54w T5HO tubes from 10am to 4pm daily.  I'm still wondering what is the best time to do the water change though ? 

From the above posts, if I do it too soon after lights off, the plants wont like the sudden CO2 drop (its only a 15% wc), but if I do it too close to lights on, the CO2 level will be low when lights come on.  This is why I have it at midnight as I thought it was a good balance between the 2.

Tony


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## mlgt (8 Mar 2010)

Tonser said:
			
		

> Hiya
> 
> Yep I dose daily, with an all in one fert.  I doubled the original dosage to take into account the 50L (approx 18%) daily water change.  Its a formula I am still tweaking, as I do get BBA forming on the older anubias leaves, and roots.
> 
> Tony



Interesting. doubling the dosage as well? Although I dont run co2 right now, but how does this affect the dosing cycle? 

If there is no change, but you are dosing double I may try this and round it closer to maybe a 250l calculation and up my water changes to daily.

I know probably LondonDragon will frown at me, but wanted to give the fish better water quality as I have noticed their behaviour over the last 2 weeks since adding another filter and dosing the ferts.

Possibly could be that I am running another filter to mature quicker and now have around x 15 filtration for the tank?


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## ceg4048 (9 Mar 2010)

Tonser said:
			
		

> Morning all, and thanks for the replies guys.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Tony,
Well that lighting seems pretty reasonable to me mate. JamesM had mentioned to me that he saw an improvement in one or two of his tanks when he altered his water change schedule. This led him to the conclusion that the time of day was a contributing factor. The problem is that he had also made several other changes over the period of a few weeks along with an adjustment to the change schedule. So it's difficult to draw any conclusions about a particular variable when other variables are not held constant. Additionally, some responses to environmental changes are either not linear (i.e the change in output is not proportional to the change in input) or occur over time - for example you can do something today and not see the results that are directly related to what you did for a week or more.

So really, although I'm not doubting James' observations, I guess I'm not convinced that the time of day for WC should play a significant role.

Photosynthesis is divided into two major sub-systems called Photosystem I and Photosystem II.

Photosystem II occurs first and is light dependent. In this phase, light strikes the chlorophyll which starts a chain of events that splits water and liberates Oxygen (pearling lives here). The ionized Hydrogen is use to power a factory that produces a stored energy compound called ATP (Adinosine Triphosphate - PO4 haters please take note!).

Photosystem I is called the Calvin Cycle which requires a lot of energy. It uses the stored energy of the ATP to "fix carbon" from CO2 and to use the Carbon to build a phosphate sugar called 3GP.

For a long time, it was believed that Photosystem I doesn't require light, so I think that might be why the idea that CO2 is used in the dark may have arisen (and in a way that's not far from the truth). The thing is that if there is no light then there is no ATP production from Photosystem II (which is light dependent) and so Calvin Cycle grinds to a halt.
The enzyme Rubisco lives here. Remember Jason Stratham as The Transporter? Well Rubisco is The Transporter of CO2. The amount of Rubisco is finely tuned to the amount of CO2 that the plant senses, but because Rubisco is a huge, complicated molecule, it takes days or even weeks to produce proper quantities. So if the plant senses, say, 30ppm CO2, it tries to produce enough Rubisco to Transport 30ppm of CO2 to the Calvin Cycle reaction chambers. If you then reduce the CO2 level to 20ppm then the plant has just wasted it's time and energy, now has to reduce the Rubisco levels, and the system starts to sputter. This is where BBA is triggered.

So if CO2 levels are stable, the Rubisco production/content is also stable (even if the CO2 level is low and stable - as long as the lighting is not too high).

When you do a water change on a CO2 injected tank, the transient CO2 level is so short lived that it does not trigger a response in the plant to revise the Rubisco production because on average, the sensed CO2 level is stable. The plant just carries on.

A continuously modulating CO2 level is a different story, so as Tom mentioned, the quality or performance of your equipment may be suspect. Imagine a needle valve or regulator that does not deliver a constant gas flow (or even an undetected modulating solenoid). A slow modulating gas delivery period could actually approximate the instability of a pH controller - remember those debates? Do you run your CO2 bottle down to empty? The cylinder valve's delivery may perform poorly at low content levels. That's why I prefer larger CO2 cylinders - more time at stable gas delivery performance before the CO2 content bottoms out.

These are just things to think about. I'm not saying these are certainties, just that we would be seeing a heck of a lot more BBA if it were dependent on what time of day we do a water change. You know me mate, I'm a lunatic and I've done water changes at all times of the day, 2 or 3 time a week even - and we're talking massive changes, you know the ones where the fish are on their sides flapping about? And I've not seen this phenomenon, so I reckon that if the water change timing is a factor, then it must be in combination with some other factor or factors.

Cheers,


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## plantbrain (9 Mar 2010)

JamesM said:
			
		

> So when is it preferable to do a water change, Tom? Before co2 on, or after co2 off? And what about running co2 24/7 like Tony does?



I do it about 1 hour after the lights come on, then the tank jams all day.
I add prime/dechlor/EI ferts, rich on Traces/PO4 etc, the tank is mad pearling at the end of the day.

The plants get going, then a massive water change, then plenty of ferts and CO2.......= good recipe for mad growth.

I never run CO2 24/7, I think this outright cruel.
Amano would tell you the same thing, "it's Taboo" in Japan to do so.

***Stressing the fish*** during the rest of the 14-16 hours of the day does no good for the fish and respiration.
Maybe you do not care much about it, maybe the O2/CO2 is okay during that time frame for the fish you have, and perhaps the light is low, so the CO2 demand is also low, less stress to fish as well.........still, I think given the species I keep, I am very unwilling to waste CO2 refills 3-4x as much, stress my fish any more than need be, simple solution to fix.

During the day cycle, the plants add plenty of O2 and the CO2 is removed by the plants so it does not build up, this allows you to add more during the time it's needed with less stress and risk. Chronic high CO2 is not really natural it varies daily in aquatic systems. Same for O2 at least where high plant biomass is found and there's always a bunch of fish in the plant beds.

For some of the debates I've had with some claiming how bad EI dosing is for fish, I find odd few bother with CO2 with the same fervor  

It might not matter in some cases, I agree with that, it might be simpler for some, but if you use a gas tank, buy a solenoid, the cost on CO2 refills should pay for itself a few times over, and allow more management wiggle room during the light cycle with less stress to all fish.

It's better on many fronts.
Not just because I or Amano say so, I do not think Oliver or Claus, Troels or Ole would disagree either.
Given a choice.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (9 Mar 2010)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> [
> Well that lighting seems pretty reasonable to me mate. JamesM had mentioned to me that he saw an improvement in one or two of his tanks when he altered his water change schedule. This led him to the conclusion that the time of day was a contributing factor. The problem is that he had also made several other changes over the period of a few weeks along with an adjustment to the change schedule. So it's difficult to draw any conclusions about a particular variable when other variables are not held constant. Additionally, some responses to environmental changes are either not linear (i.e the change in output is not proportional to the change in input) or occur over time - for example you can do something today and not see the results that are directly related to what you did for a week or more.
> 
> So really, although I'm not doubting James' observations, I guess I'm not convinced that the time of day for WC should play a significant role.



I'm going with James on this one  

I think it does make some difference.
Try it like this, do one right after the lights go off.
Then try it say 1 hours after the lights go on

See what occurs that night before lights go off(there's a few hours difference due to the timing, but this cannot be helped). I think you'll note much better pearling and O2 levels=> better growth, if you do the large water change right after the lights come on, vs the night before(12-4 hours prior to the lights "on").

Try it and see.

Look, you cannot over do water changes on planted tanks, they can only help right?
Nothing to lose other than some water, cheap ferts, time etc, then you can clean and take care of other nagging chores for the tank/s.

So try it out. I do a 80% water change the day of an open house about 30-60 minute after lights come on, then the folks show up about 4 hours later, hang out, marvel are the mad pearling, I show an LDO O2 Hach meter, they all go "Ooooo, ahhhhh".

Plants take up lots of CO2 direct from the air, and the inter cellular air spaces, or aerenchyma, get filled up, and lots of O2 is also added, as well and a good cleaning of the surfaces and boundary layers, bacteria are all jacked full of O2, so they respire and give off CO2, CO2 system is also cleaned etc, filters, flow, etc better.

Quite a few things going on.

But purely observational test, try it 1 hour after, then try it 1 till the lights go off.
See what you think. You can also try this: crank the light doing what I do for that day, vs trying to do it if you do the WC at night.

Watch and observe close.

This is one reason I started doing larger water changes, they allowed me to grow the plants better than other folks.
I also believed the water quality was higher and better for fish when I did 50% or more weekly.

Try it and see.
Some tap is also loaded with CO2, some less so.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## ceg4048 (9 Mar 2010)

plantbrain said:
			
		

> I'm going with James on this one
> 
> I think it does make some difference.
> Try it like this, do one right after the lights go off.
> Then try it say 1 hours after the lights go on


But enough of a difference to explain BBA all by itself Tom? That's what I'm having difficulty with....  

I'd forgotten about the trapped air spaces though. Good point!

Cheers,


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## JamesM (9 Mar 2010)

plantbrain said:
			
		

> I'm going with James on this one


Its not that shocking is it? 

You say to change water 1 hour after lights on, but this would upset co2 balance even more wouldn't it?   You've been running co2 for several hours before lights on, slowly building up co2 levels in the tank, lights come on, then 1 hour later you change the water which is going to remove this partial build up before it reaches its peak, meaning the tank will be running with less than optimal co2 levels for however many hours it takes to build back up...  

The chart Keymaker posted suggests co2 is at its peak after 7 hours, so wouldn't it be better doing the water change before co2 on? You'd then have a good 7 hours for the co2 levels to sort themselves out before bringing on the sun..


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## plantbrain (9 Mar 2010)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> plantbrain said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No, I'm focused solely on good plant growth/health, nothing more.
BBA and all algae are secondary to that.

But if you have good plant growth, then algae is a non issue.

Thing is, folks have so so growth, think that is good plant growth, then wonder why they still have algae.
It's not a 100% on/off type of thing, few things are in the world. It's somewhat a continuous gradation.

A graph of this:
http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/images/e ... y_time.gif

But the Y axis would be increasing is "growth" and the X axis would be increasing in algae growth.

Something very close to this non linear relationship.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/images/e ... y_time.gif


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## plantbrain (9 Mar 2010)

JamesM said:
			
		

> plantbrain said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm not so sure it's at the peak as far as plant demand goes.....perhaps concentration, but the effect on plant growth is what concerns us , not the actually residual ppm. This would be measured as O2 and there's some delay between growth and CO2 and O2 evolution. Build up of O2 also occurs throughout the day like the CO2.

However, O2 reflects growth, CO2 does not.

Once plants start up growth, it takes a little while for the light and reactions to get going fast.
Once this happens, then the draw of CO2 comes and starts to get stronger.

By removing the water and adding air/CO2, you really drive the rates up, and any small algae that might be attached, also falls off much easier.

You can measure the growth differences using a good O2 meter/test.

That's a better metric than trying to measure CO2, that's tough.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## JamesM (9 Mar 2010)

Cheers Tom, I'll give this method a go for a while and see what results I get.

Tony, let us know what you're going to do too bud


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## Tony Swinney (9 Mar 2010)

Thanks again for the replies and info guys - some really interesting thoughts coming out here   



			
				plantbrain said:
			
		

> if you use a gas tank, buy a solenoid, the cost on CO2 refills should pay for itself a few times over, and allow more management wiggle room during the light cycle with less stress to all fish.



I have solenoids on the COs bottle, I'd just turned them to permanently on about 3 months ago when it was suggested that the fluctuation in CO2 levels over a 24hr period when switching the gas could be causing the BBA.  I've tried it on 24/7 and still have the BBA !



			
				plantbrain said:
			
		

> So try it out. I do a 80% water change the day of an open house about 30-60 minute after lights come on, then the folks show up about 4 hours later, hang out, marvel are the mad pearling, I show an LDO O2 Hach meter, they all go "Ooooo, ahhhhh".
> 
> Plants take up lots of CO2 direct from the air, and the inter cellular air spaces, or aerenchyma, get filled up, and lots of O2 is also added, as well and a good cleaning of the surfaces and boundary layers, bacteria are all jacked full of O2, so they respire and give off CO2, CO2 system is also cleaned etc, filters, flow, etc better.



I like the theory on this Tom, and it certainly makes sense to my rather simplistic mind    I'll give it a go - a few logistics to work out, as presently I refill the tanks straight from the RO filter, so it takes a couple of hours if I do a 15% water change.  The reason I'm doing 15% is that when that much water is out of the tank, the 2 lily pipes just break the surface a little, thus adding some O2 back in during the time it takes to refill.  To do larger water changes faster i need to start storing the RO supply - perhaps this will help more than anything else ???



			
				plantbrain said:
			
		

> Once plants start up growth, it takes a little while for the light and reactions to get going fast.
> Once this happens, then the draw of CO2 comes and starts to get stronger.
> 
> By removing the water and adding air/CO2, you really drive the rates up, and any small algae that might be attached, also falls off much easier.



This is really interesting Tom, as it goes against what I (and others) thought about having high CO2 content at lights on. Again it sounds logical to me   

So I've switched the solenoids back onto coming on at 5am for lights on at 10am, and switching off at 3pm when the lights go off.  I'll get some water storage sorted out, so I can try doing a larger water change in a quicker time - maybe 30%, and I'll try it at lights off and then a couple of days later an hour after lights on.

I will report back   

In the mean time, just in case I'm missing something else really obvious, if you guys could run your eyes over these specs that would be great.  I get BBA, and a little GSA, have slow plant growth (with the exception of Blyxa !) and never have any pearling !!!

(These specs are actually for my optiwhite tank, as it has the same setup as the discus tank, but is alot easier to work on so i'll be testing on that)

-200L
-26Âºc
-Moderatley planted, and stocked (40 black neons, 12 ottos, 6 SAEs and about 70 cherry shrimp)
-10% w/c daily, presently done automatically through the night with RO water
-2 x 39w T5HO, 10am to 3pm
-CO2 has been 24/7, now 5am to 3pm.  Drop checker is lime green throughout the photoperiod
-Eheim 2076 and Tetratec EX1200 filters. 2 x koralia 1â€™s have just been added too
-Filters are cleaned out every 4 - 6 weeks   
-Substrate is ADA Malaya, and is nealy 1 year old
-Ferts are EI and premixed with RO water:
Sun, Tues, Thurs, macros dosed as follows 
11g KNO3
1.5g KH2PO4
5g K2SO4
17g MgSO4

Mon, Wed, Fri, micros dosed as follows
1g Trace

I also add 10ml Easy Carbo or Excel daily, directly applied to the BBA   

Thanks again for any advice.  The discus tank is being rescaped in April with the Manzanita I got off you Tom, so it would be great to get a grip of things before then.

Cheers

Tony


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## keymaker (10 Mar 2010)

I can actually confirm what Tom has written - if only for one occurrence. Due to my daily routine I have always changed the water at night. This morning was different though and I went for the pre-lights-on change. Pearling tonight was visibly stronger then yesterday.

Tom, I have one question though. I know it might not be important or relevant, but I would still like to see how and why you got to this 1-hour-after-the-lights on conclusion. Why not change the water just before lights on or 2-3 hours later? Is this just a routine thing that fits your schedule? I speculate you have tried to do it earlier or later, but it did not matter, so you stayed with this?...

I will change the water regularly with the suggested schedule and will let you know... Thanks!!!  :idea:


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## plantbrain (10 Mar 2010)

keymaker said:
			
		

> I can actually confirm what Tom has written - if only for one occurrence. Due to my daily routine I have always changed the water at night. This morning was different though and I went for the pre-lights-on change. Pearling tonight was visibly stronger then yesterday.
> 
> Tom, I have one question though. I know it might not be important or relevant, but I would still like to see how and why you got to this 1-hour-after-the-lights on conclusion. Why not change the water just before lights on or 2-3 hours later? Is this just a routine thing that fits your schedule? I speculate you have tried to do it earlier or later, but it did not matter, so you stayed with this?...
> 
> I will change the water regularly with the suggested schedule and will let you know... Thanks!!!  :idea:



How? Trial and error. Just messed with it and have done plenty of water changes, big ones.
After observing it, then going back and trying a few other routines, I then went and measured O2 levels through the day cycles following water changes. I just settled on this. I do not think there's going to be much difference between say 1-2 hours either way, but if I can maximize that fresh new water and CO2 in the tap, the air, get some growth while the plants have light + air/CO2/O2 while the change is occurring, why not?

This goes back to the beginning of my rational for EI, I knew everything was the same, plenty of ferts since I add them right after the water change, regardless of the time. Light is still the same for all treatments/times. % water changed was the same.

Light/nutrients where identical as best as I could reason.
That leaves only CO2 left.........

Current, air exposure etc, boundary layers etc are all part of CO2.

So I adjusted my CO2 to match this same mad pearling mayhem.
It was 2-3x what PMDD suggested.
Fish where fine.

Still, the CO2 was not producing the same pearling often times and measuring with O2, suggested other things besides just adding more Gas CO2 might be playing a role. So current/air spaces, etc was proposed as potential reasons for differences.

Nutrients are extremely easy (as is light once have a meter) to rule out when you do frequent large water changes.
This leaves CO2 as the main factor. If you really want to drive growth really well, try every other day dose/water change. If you have a light fixture that you can go from say 1.5 W/gal of T5 lighting with 2 bulbs, to 3w/gal with 4 bulbs, try running the 4 bulbs only on the day of the water change. Then return back to low light for the rest of the week. I think most folks will see some differences. I also had high PO4 in my old tap water 15-20 years ago, so I dosed every time I added a water change. Just did not know it till later.

Mostly just watching and then doing that.
Photosynthesis starts up and gets going in 30-60 minutes and is running at full blast, then you hit the tank with a water change. I also leave the lights on during the water change, trim, prune etc during this time.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (10 Mar 2010)

Tony, Blyxa is a frigging weed.
It's also a good indicator, it's growing well, so there's ample light and CO2........for this plant, but likely not enough for other plants. Sounds like your CO2 is roughly 80% there.

Fish turn dark when stressed. 

Keep a careful eye on them.
Try needle wheel diffusers, or some other high flow direct CO2 enrichment method.
If it's under powered, it cannot do the job well, get good O2 for those fish(Critical issue and more so if you add CO2).

Blyxa will grow even nicer, do not assume you have perfect or good CO2, unless every species is growing nicely etc.
Balance that with watching the fish closely.

Sediment/dosing seems fine, once plants start growing again/well, new growth, some species take longer than others to respond to good CO2..then trim off the old BBA and start picking away at it, if the CO2/light is balanced right, there should not be any new BBA growth.

I've gone through this process maybe 101 times over 20 years, it's the same old thing everytime, all related to CO2, light drives that etc, so think about that and how to change things to make it easier for you. I've never had it be anything else with many different tanks, my own, other folk's I've helped etc. I'm not saying this is the only possible cause, but it's linked extremely well.

regards, 
Tom Barr


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## keymaker (10 Mar 2010)

Can we actually say, that after your "open house" (I just love the English language) morning water change the O2 level in the tank is higher than usual and we actually see the increased pearling due to O2 saturation issues - and it actually has nothing to do with "plant health"?

I know, I know, you would not see the pearling if photosynthesis would not have started, but what if it starts as usual, with the same force, it's just that we see it better...


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## JamesM (10 Mar 2010)

Also, what time do you put co2 on Tom? 1 hour before or more? Tony is going from 24/7 to on 5 hours before lights, I've just gone from 3 hours before to a full 7 hours before lights on as a trial run, obviously this is overkill, but I do love a little overkill now and then... especially if it works.


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## Tony Swinney (10 Mar 2010)

Hi guys and thanks again for your comments, and discussions.

In light of the discussions on here I did a different water change schedule...

5am CO2 on
10am lights on
11am dropped 12% / 25L of water out
Directly dosed excel onto the BBA on rocks and wood
11.15am Refilled 25L of RO/HMA blend water
Dosed ferts and excel to the water column
12 - 2pm the 2nd pair of 39w T5HO tubes are coming on for a burst

I also moved the CO2 diffuser to directly under one of the koralias, so the bubbles now go straight in to the Koralia chamber, get "chopped up" and spat out across the tank, way more efficiently than was happening   

I know thats a few changes in one go, but I havent been too good at keeping a check on the various tweaks that I've done in the past so this is almost a fresh start, and i'm going to note any changes I make in this journal.

There was still no pearling to be seen today, though the dc did get to a more yellow colour, and the fish were fine. I suspect the 12% WC isnt enough in one go to make a huge difference in the way that Tom is talking about, but 25L is the biggest water container I have at the minute.  If this process seems to be making a difference I've found an 85L container I can use, to prepare more RO water and thus do greater water changes.

I'll keep you posted   

Tony


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## Tony Swinney (21 Mar 2010)

I've been applying these changes to my other optiwhite tank, as that was having the same problems, but is alot easier to work on than this one.  The results have been fantastic, and can be seem here:

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=4402&start=220

Having seen the success of the new regime, I'm starting it on this discus tank too.  I did the first 50% water change today, and syringed the BBA with Excel.  I also trimmed all the BBA leaves out.  I'll update with pics in a few days 

Tony


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## mlgt (22 Mar 2010)

You could have a splitter that allows the tube that normally runs into the 25l container, thus allowing you to have 50l.

I dont have an auto water change and normally just chuck in a water pump attached to a garden hose.

This allows me to do a water change in 10 mins. I normally do a 25% change every 2 days followed by a 80% water change on Sundays.


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## Tony Swinney (29 May 2010)

Well, this tank has been stripped down now and the discus have gone to a new home    /   

This is the last shot of the tank:






and this is where the rest of the flaura and fauna are living until there new home is ready :






The new journal begins here:

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=11596&start=0

Thanks to all for your comments and help on this one 

Tony


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