# Biological filtration with Convection currents, Heating cables, Bodenfluter



## TallDragon (17 Jan 2015)

Hi All,
I am considering getting a heating cable system for my small cube tank - Like the Dennerle Bodenfluter , video link (in german) or Dupla Thermic or ELOS Celsio set or JBL ProTemp. These heating cables are meant to not heat the tank water, but to create a convenction current in the substrate, which has many benefits.
_"The Dupla Thermic Set warms the substrate material alone. The resulting temperature difference causes oxygen-rich water to circulate into the lower substrate layers and nutrients to circulate into the upper layers. For aquarium heating an additional regulated heater is necessary. "
_
I was able to find a very thorough article here and here, in which the concept and benefits are well described, and makes sense. I have also read this positive review here, with the comment: "After five years of experimenting in our nursery, I am convinced that substrate heating in the planted aquarium is key for long term stability in the planted aquarium..... _While the tanks without it needed a breakdown and refurbish after 12 to 18 months, the tanks with the cables have been stable for over 5 years to date. If you are going to break down your planted aquarium every year to eighteen months then heating cables may not be a useful investment."_






Note: I do not have space for a cabinet with a big volume external filter, so I was thinking of assisting the biological filtration of a corner filter with such a 'bodenfluter' system, perhaps a JBL i100 CristalProfi. My planned tank is 35x35x40 - 50l tank, so a 30cm tall cornerfilter would suffice, I think.

I do not plan to use CO2, I just want a nice, low maintenance low tech tank. So the following sentence grabbed my attention:
_"If you tend to tear down your tanks every year or so for whatever reason, don't bother with substrate heating. If you set up a tank for the long haul (longer than one year), substrate heating can greatly improve your chances of success. However, based on our experience, substrate heating will not improve the rate at which plants grow."_
This sentence now makes me understand why the high tech aquascapers on this forum, have been telling me to 'drop the idea', as many aquascapers on this forum tend to tear down their beautiful tanks in 18 months, and do want to use C02 to make the plants grow. For a low-tech, low-maintenance, low-cost aquarium I do not need fast plant growth, just a healthy ecosystem that is easy and cheap to maintain.
Many may have confused these cables with those that some use to heat the aquarium water. Also these are not to be compared with using heating mats under the tank, because concentrated heat is needed to create the convection flow.

I have been advised in other threads to start a new thread on the topic. So here it is.

Given, that I need low maintenance (next to 3 kids under 5), and I am a newcomer, with little inclination for CO2, RO water, a big external filter, high fertilization needs or frequent tear down, I have yet to be convinced that this is a bad idea.
Share your thoughts and experiences on this thread.


----------



## ceg4048 (17 Jan 2015)

TallDragon said:


> Share your thoughts and experiences on this thread.


Hello,
         Cable heating has long since proven to be a fantasy, whether long or short term. There is no benefit whatsoever in cable heating, so you would do well to simply forget about it. This was tested and discovered to be a sham going on 15 years now.

Cheers,


----------



## TallDragon (17 Jan 2015)

ceg4048 said:


> Hello,
> Cable heating has long since proven to be a fantasy, whether long or short term. There is no benefit whatsoever in cable heating, so you would do well to simply forget about it. This was tested and discovered to be a sham going on 15 years now.
> Cheers,


Ceg4048, I really respect your expertise, however could I kindly ask you to point me to reading material on the topic, so I can make a well informed decision, please.
Alternatively, please describe your personal experience, if you have tried it and it did not live up to your expectations.

Even today, I ran across across a video by ELOS showing the installation of the ELOS Celsio bottom system, where they started the tank with a heater. Video


----------



## Jose (17 Jan 2015)

You can find the proof in any lovely tank that you can find on the web. Basically none use heating cables.


----------



## ceg4048 (17 Jan 2015)

Here you go.

You should be asking the cable companies what proof they have that the cables make a difference.

http://www.barrreport.com/forum/bar...n-powersand-providing-aeration-vs-plant-roots

http://www.barrreport.com/forum/barr-report/sediment/9934-substrate-heating

Cheers,


----------



## Jose (17 Jan 2015)

Good point.


----------



## TallDragon (18 Jan 2015)

Jose said:


> You can find the proof in any lovely tank that you can find on the web. Basically none use heating cables.


Jose, the question is, can the initial startup be made more carefree AND can the tank sustain it's health over 18 months with the substrate convection currents better. I have no doubt that very beautiful tanks on this forum can be seen (usually high tech), which do not use cables, however a majority of them also are disassembled within 18months or so. 
Also, nowadays many are using the twinstar nano during startup to avoid initial algae troubles. I am just curious if heating cables and the convection currents they provide could also serve a good purpose during startup and post 18month health, in a low tech tank.


----------



## TallDragon (18 Jan 2015)

ceg4048 said:


> Here you go.
> 
> You should be asking the cable companies what proof they have that the cables make a difference.
> 
> ...


Thanks ceg4047 for the links. I found the following statement in  the second link you pointed to from a user:

" My personal opinion after having used them for the past 7 years, it is for tank environment stability. Never had to tear down the tank or do drastic replanting /recharging of substrate. Too many folks use heating cables incorrectly. To use it correctly, the cables must be of correct sizing, watts per gallon, heating duration and cable separation distance. It is also important that the substrate is fine gravel/sand to promote convection current. If you use ADA soil and other "manufactured sand" like materials, it won't work. " (Mr. Barr -in response to this commenter- then proceeds to tear into this forum commenter in a manner, which I find a bit patromising and can hardly be called proper scientific discourse... but hey, this isn't academia, and he can do anything he likes on his forum.)

The links also show that Mr. Barr is looking for someone out there to do long term comparative testing and until they do, he will remain a skeptic, and spread his thinking on his forum. I, on the other hand, tend to be inquisitive until fully being convinced that they are useless, by those who have tried it. 
Unlike Mr. Barr, I do not make my living from aquatic planted aquarium upkeep, nor do I have my name in a .com domain name on which I operate a forum to spread my beliefs. - I just do not have the time. 
Sincerely, thank you for the great reading, and keep them coming, as you bump into them. The more scholarly, the better.


----------



## pepedopolous (18 Jan 2015)

If heating cables are so wrongfully-maligned, wouldn't the manufacturers try harder to defend and promote them? Why don't Dennerle include heating cables with every Nano Cube or Scaper's Tank? Why didn't they take out a hitman on Tom Barr (or lawyers or even scientists)?

P


----------



## foxfish (18 Jan 2015)

If you want to use one then do, it won't cause any harm to anyone.


----------



## ceg4048 (18 Jan 2015)

TallDragon said:


> Thanks ceg4047 for the links. I found the following statement in the second link you pointed to from a user:
> " My personal opinion after having used them for the past 7 years, it is for tank environment stability. Never had to tear down the tank or do drastic replanting /recharging of substrate. Too many folks use heating cables incorrectly. To use it correctly, the cables must be of correct sizing, watts per gallon, heating duration and cable separation distance. It is also important that the substrate is fine gravel/sand to promote convection current. If you use ADA soil and other "manufactured sand" like materials, it won't work. "


The people who don't use heating cables also have not had to tear down the tank or to do mass replanting.

There are lots of reason to do a tank teardown. Usually, people tear the tank down due to boredom with the existing scape. So just because the poster has not had to tear down his tank, then this means nothing and the best that can be concluded is that the cables do not harm the tank. I have no difficulty with environmental stability when the cables are not installed.



TallDragon said:


> The links also show that Mr. Barr has not tried heating cables, but is looking for someone out there to do long term testing, and until they do, he will remain a skeptic, and spread his thinking on his forum. I, on the other hand, tend to be inquisitive until fully being convinced that they are useless, by those who have tried it.


Barr and many others (myself included) have used cables and I can assure you that there have not been any discernible improvements.

What I find difficult to understand is that you seem to have made up your mind that cables are a good thing without any proof that they actually accomplish the claim. Those of us who have used the cables are reporting that none of the claims by the cable vendors are valid. Why is it OK to believe the person selling you the product to have no proof of claim, but yet those who have used the cables and report that they show no improvements are dismissed. Barr has a Doctorate in the field of Wetland Biogeochemistry as well as being a hobbyists. You would do well to heed his advice and ignore whatever personal feelings you have regarding his aggression. UKAPS started as a subforum of The Barr Report and all that we have learned on how to maintain problem free tanks has been derived from Barr's wisdom and experience. It's not clear why the fact that he makes a living from aquarium upkeep is considered to invalidate his findings, yet you seem willing to believe and buy the product from Dupla, who also make their living from aquarium upkeep. Barr is showing you how NOT to waste money. He is not trying to sell you something in lieu of the cables.

Cheers,


----------



## Andy Thurston (18 Jan 2015)

TallDragon said:


> Thanks ceg4047 for the links. I found the following statement in  the second link you pointed to from a user:
> 
> " My personal opinion after having used them for the past 7 years, it is for tank environment stability. Never had to tear down the tank or do drastic replanting /recharging of substrate. Too many folks use heating cables incorrectly. To use it correctly, the cables must be of correct sizing, watts per gallon, heating duration and cable separation distance. It is also important that the substrate is fine gravel/sand to promote convection current. If you use ADA soil and other "manufactured sand" like materials, it won't work. " (Mr. Barr -in response to this commenter- then proceeds to tear into this forum commenter in a manner, which I find a bit aggressive and can hardly be called proper scientific discourse... but hey, this isn't acedmia, and he can do anything he likes on his forum.)
> 
> ...


I think if you read post #5 in the second link you will find tom barr has used several different heating cables


----------



## TallDragon (18 Jan 2015)

ceg4048 said:


> Barr and many others (myself included) have used cables and I can assure you that there have not been any discernible improvements.



Dear ceg4048, pardon, but this is the *very first time*, that you mention that you have used them. Your first post in this thread, did not mention or speak much of your personal experiences, you just plainly told me to forget it. Can I kindly ask you to share the details of your personal experience?



ceg4048 said:


> What I find difficult to understand is that you seem to have made up your mind that cables are a good thing without any proof that they actually accomplish the claim.



Do I seem to have made up my mind? Not exactly. I started the thread with 'I am considering...'.  And it is proof that I seek.
It was an aquarist friend who recommended this approach and I thought that I would do a bit of research around the topic and get informed from others on this forum.
I have been asking others to share personal experiences in my initial post from the position of neutrality.

I do not believe the 'person' selling the product. Though, the basic supply/demand rules of economics would imply that if there is a supply by at least four(reputable) vendors, then there must be a demand for it. Maybe not 'demanded' by the people on this forum, but the vendors are making them for some reason, and have not pulled the product from the shelves, yet -- surprising given that "15 year old sham" that you speak of.



ceg4048 said:


> ... but yet those who have used the cables and report that they show no improvements are dismissed.


In now way did any of my statements imply that I was dismissing anybody's report. Like all comments I will take them into consideration, on my journey to make a well informed decision. Substrate heating cables need to be installed from day one, so I just want to make sure I do all that I can to start right, especially about something that is not possible to add later.



ceg4048 said:


> Barr has a Doctorate in the field of Wetland Biogeochemistry as well as being a hobbyists. You would do well to heed his advice and ignore whatever personal feelings you have regarding his aggression. UKAPS started as a subforum of The Barr Report and all that we have learned on how to maintain problem free tanks has been derived from Barr's wisdom and experience.


Fine. I looked into Mr. Barr on this thing called the internet. He introduced himself here, in 2005. He also has a LinkedIn profile here. Here is his dissertation, from 2013. "Integrative Control of Curly Leaf Pondweed Propagules Employing Benthic Bottom Barriers: Physical, Chemical and Thermal Approaches". Having read the summary, it did not mention anything about heat cables. It is about controlling invasive aquatic weeds by various methods. Anyone with a Doctorate will know and understand the following fun illustration here. Which just shows that having a doctorate means you pushed the boundry of all human knowledge by a tiny bit in one domain. I had a smile, when I saw this illustration, since it conveys the truth. Personally I got my doctorate in 2007 in a totally different topic than biochemistry and only in my dreams do I hope that someone will ever refer to my 'wisdom and experience' in that particular topic. Apologies I digress... I mean no disrespect to Dr. Barr, an expert who I would happily call on, if I ever have invasive weeds in my pond.



pepedopolous said:


> If heating cables are so wrongfully-maligned, wouldn't the manufacturers try harder to defend and promote them? Why don't Dennerle include heating cables with every Nano Cube or Scaper's Tank? Why didn't they take out a hitman on Tom Barr (or lawyers or even scientists)?
> P



Haha, that was a funny comment pepedopolous. Personally I think Dennerle are trying to make the 'entry' into the world of aquascaping as cheap as possible for those who are tempted. It makes sense to leave out something that would increase the price of the starting kit by 10-20%. They also leave out scissors and pincettes from the 'complete kit'.

So, in conclusion, with all due respect to all the members of this forum. I kindly ask all, who have first hand experience with substrate heating, to share their personal experiences, so that I - and others like me - can make an informed decision.


----------



## nayr88 (18 Jan 2015)

It's fair for you to ask why, or course that's the point of a forum, to discuss.

I'd say I've ran many planted tanks none of which have used cables and all of which have flourished! If there has been any problems I've addressed them and changed my approach and been successful, I haven't run a tank for more that a year and tear down due to boredom. So I cannot comment on that.

I will mention in one of the pro cable links you shared that it does say along the lines of (and I'm NOT quoting directly) He felt that the cables helped him maintain a tank when you pass 18months....

So let's say you plan to run the tank for 2years of over...same tank same plants and same hard scape. That's a hell of a long time!! Ceg said he has ran long term tanks and did not have a problem with not having cables. So we have a +1 for cables and a -1 for cables being used to successfully run a tank over 2 years. 

HOWEVER ! If you feel they will benefit you then go for it, it's not going to cause harm , just it'll cost you money, if your wallet allows that then dive in! BUT understand the simplistic fact 

You do not need this equipment to gain an advantage towards growing healthy plants
It will not give you a natural flair to produce an aesthetic hardscape 
It will not allow you to have lesser external filtration  
It will not heat your aquarium so as to stop you needing additional heating
It will not in anyway shape or form make a visible difference to you plant health*, water condition or shrimp/fish health

So why bother? 

*plant health - I say you will not notice a difference as if we take into account the +1 for cables from the link where the guy said 'over 18months blah blah ' then we take the -1 from Ceg.


----------



## pepedopolous (18 Jan 2015)

Do you think aquarium company product ranges are lead by scientific researchers or *market* researchers?

Some company long ago innovated heating cables for aquariums. They did no harm to anyone and sold enough to be worth the bother. Likely they are simply something re-purposed from another industry... Anyway, a few other companies followed suit and here we are.

I seriously doubt that any aquarium company actually set up controlled long term tests to see if their heating cables make a difference. The marketing sounds 'sciencey' and plausible so people buy them if they have the money to burn and don't mind yet more equipment in their aquariums.

If anyone would know it would be these guys. Can you find a mention of heating cables here? Nope.
http://tropica.com/en/guide/make-your-aquarium-a-success/

P


----------



## nayr88 (18 Jan 2015)

pepedopolous said:


> If anyone would know it would be these guys. Can you find a mention of heating cables here? Nope.
> http://tropica.com/en/guide/make-your-aquarium-a-success/
> 
> P



Very good point about the marketing strategy. Tropica are the top dogs for plant growing and dominate the scene.
Imagine the revenue they would create with some marketing spiel and tried to punt out some tropica heating cables, there must be a reason why they do not. They would have the financials to produce the product but I think as the new age planted tank enthusiasts are they would simply only tarnish there reputation by 'trying it on'


----------



## pepedopolous (18 Jan 2015)

One thing Tropica have done is jump on the aquarium soil bandwagon. I must admit I'm confounded by their 'CO2 in a spraycan' sets. I guess they're better than DIY yeast systems and cheap...

P


----------



## Chris Jackson (18 Jan 2015)

I've had a Dennerle Bodenfluter setup in a 400ltr tank run for over 10 years...does it make any difference? I doubt it but at the time the idea of gentle convection in the substrate seemed to make intuitive sense but clearly it is not necessary at all so why bother. Substrate heating cables came from the 80's and 90's or earlier and I think that the likes of Dennerle or Dupla believed in them rather than marketed them for the sake of income but if they are still pushing them now, when we are wiser, then that is a different matter.


----------



## ian_m (19 Jan 2015)

pepedopolous said:


> I must admit I'm confounded by their 'CO2 in a spraycan' sets


It is just pressurised CO2, but not at 55bar pressure (and liquefied) as in standard CO2 cylinders. As pressure is lower (14 bar ?) all the rules and regulations about pressurised gas cylinders don't apply. My local fish shop has a couple of nano tanks using these cans and they only last a week and are on 24/7 as no solenoid and generally they turn the by hand if they remember.


----------



## TallDragon (20 Jan 2015)

nayr88 said:


> It's fair for you to ask why, or course that's the point of a forum, to discuss.
> 
> You do not need this equipment to gain an advantage towards growing healthy plants
> ...
> It will not allow you to have lesser external filtration



Nayr88,
My goal would be to run a 50l tank on a tabletop, without a big canister filter. So I thought, that as the heating cables would turn my substrate volume into an efficient biological filter, a small corner filter (e.g. JBL i100) would suffice for a low tech tank setup.The i100 can produce a big enough flow, but does not have the big volume for a lot of bio media. Your thoughts?


----------



## pepedopolous (20 Jan 2015)

TallDragon said:


> Nayr88,
> My goal would be to run a 50l tank on a tabletop, without a big canister filter.



Have you considered the aquariums which have a filter compartment at the back? e.g. Aqua One http://www.aquaone.co.uk/aquanano.php or Innovative Marine http://www.charterhouse-aquatics.co....html?osCsid=37b9780b9159a66fb54ec89e4897b15a

P


----------



## TallDragon (20 Jan 2015)

pepedopolous said:


> Have you considered the aquariums which have a filter compartment at the back? e.g. Aqua One http://www.aquaone.co.uk/aquanano.php or Innovative Marine http://www.charterhouse-aquatics.co....html?osCsid=37b9780b9159a66fb54ec89e4897b15a
> 
> P


Thanks for links. I would prefer to have a modular setup. And preferably something that is simple to maintain weekly.
The filters on these tanks appear to be cumbersome to get to, if they are on a desk where I want minimal drips. The location I have in mind is the end of my desk, in the corner  where I would only be able to access it from the front and right side.
As an alternative to the JBL i100 CristalProfi, I was considering also the Eden 511, but the latter consumes more electricity.


----------



## Chris Jackson (20 Jan 2015)

I'd say the JBL would be ideal. Keep it simple, an internal filter is fine, plant the tank up heavily from the outset and the plants will do most of the filtration anyway and their roots will take care of the substrate.


----------



## TallDragon (21 Jan 2015)

Chris Jackson said:


> I'd say the JBL would be ideal. Keep it simple, an internal filter is fine, plant the tank up heavily from the outset and the plants will do most of the filtration anyway and their roots will take care of the substrate.


Thanks Chris.
Would you put in any special media into the i100 filter, like Seachem Matrix or Sera Siporax mini?


----------



## Chris Jackson (21 Jan 2015)

Yes either of those or similar, foam in the first compartment, then siporax and I like carbon for the first couple of months so I'd suggest that in the 3rd chamber to begin with.


----------



## TallDragon (15 Feb 2015)

Chris Jackson said:


> Yes either of those or similar, foam in the first compartment, then siporax and I like carbon for the first couple of months so I'd suggest that in the 3rd chamber to begin with.


Hi Chris, a lot has happened in the past 2-3 weeks. I got a chance to get my hands on a full kit. A 1 year old aquarium, with cabinet. So 1 week ago I started my journey. 
I invite you to follow my first journal (a.k.a. amateaur mistakes) here. I am not using heating cables, cause I got the whole kit with 1 year old substrate.


----------

