# Growth issues



## The Don (6 Nov 2014)

Hi guys, I'm not sure what is effecting my tank. Im suffering some slow growth in my low tech tank. It's 240lt with home made LED 5050 strips, white and rbg. I have root tabs and leave zone but I'm unsure it's having any effect. My echinodorus, Anublas nana bonsai and vallis seem to grow at a normal rate but everything else seems to never grow well or becomes floating pieces on the surface.


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## ian_m (6 Nov 2014)

Holes in leaves and black brush algae is always too little or variable amount of carbon (CO2 gas or liquid) for the light levels you are supplying.

You don't state if you are fertilising the plants ?


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## sciencefiction (6 Nov 2014)

If that first picture reflects the amount of light the tank is getting, then no surprise the only growers are the low light tolerant plants. If the tips of your vallis are melting often, it's again lack of light related.
Holes in the leaves doesn't always indicate co2 deficiency. Looking at those pictures, and the purple spots on the anubias, it's a macro deficiency and more likely phosphorus involved.
The bba could be just a consequence of the damaged leaves not being removed and leaking organics which bba loves.


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## The Don (6 Nov 2014)

Thanks for the quick responses!

I don't fert religiously, as I'm nieve to what I should use. Tried root tabs and I ipa leaf zone but was unsure it was having any positive effect if any.

 Majority of bba on the side of the tank which natural light hit from a bright window but i have installed blinds It's halted but not disappeared. 

I dont use co2 liquid/gas. Is the main issue more light is required?


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## sciencefiction (6 Nov 2014)

Api leaf zone contains just potassium and iron, which are one of the many plants need. I am not sure what root tabs you've used but the anubias won't benefit from them as it's not normally planted in the substrate. I can't see where you've attached yours.
The plants are struggling which is the reason why you have BBA.  When you provide more light, both demand for co2 and nutrients increase. If there's no CO2, plants stop growing, if there's nutrients deficiency, plants too stop growing but show "deficiency signs" of all kinds, depending on the plant and the particular nutrient in shortage.
I have a low tech tank near a window and it doesn't ever get BBA, even in the summer with the sunlight blazing so I am not convinced BBA is directly proportionate to light amount and co2 only.  But with struggling plants for one or another reason you'll get algae of some sort early or later.


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## NC10 (6 Nov 2014)

The Don said:


> Is the main issue more light is required?



No, that's the last thing needed really at this stage IMO Best thing is to increase (start adding) Co2/liquid and ferts to catch up with the amount of light you have, or reduce the light you have to match the amount of ferts and Co2 that's available naturally. Just find a balance anyway.

Don't forget though like you've said, you're running a low tech tank, so you shouldn't really expect anything other than hardy, easy plants like you mentioned to do well. You didn't mention the plants you were struggling with though. If you have a read around the forum, I'm sure you'll find loads of plants that do well in low tech setups. Have a look through some low tech journals for inspiration.


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## sciencefiction (6 Nov 2014)

I must disagree with the last comment. I have 5 low tech tanks so I am sure dosing liquid carbon or injecting co2 is not essential for keeping low tech tanks with nice growing plants.  Lowering the light to match CO2 demand is logical but has nothing to do with nutrients. Stopping the metabolism of the plants by depriving them of enough light to grow at steady rates does nothing positive to the plants or the tank. And when there are nutrient deficiencies, there are nutrient deficiencies. Nutrients won't appear out of the blue.


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## sciencefiction (6 Nov 2014)

Here what's left of valis trying to grow with little light, you can notice the tops of the leaves are missing because they keep melting:




And this is the other side of the tank that gets more light. The vallis has no problem growing healthy:




And a few weeks later the vallis is so long some of it is reaching the front of the tank bottom




It's not a spectacular tank but plants can grow without co2 supplements of any kind and CO2 is not the source of all evil.


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## NC10 (6 Nov 2014)

I must also disagree with the last comment  (edit: the one before the last now lol)

I didn't say dosing was essential. It's either low tech or high tech, either way, a balance is needed between the "magic 3"

So you're suggesting increasing the light with nothing else added will help with the problems mentioned?


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## sciencefiction (6 Nov 2014)

NC10 said:


> So you're suggesting increasing the light with nothing else will help with the problems mentioned?



Not just the light and not bump the light to a level that will burn the tank, but more is light needed, yes. And some nutrients are possibly needed. I already mentioned phosphorous is possible to be an issue in this tank because of how the anubias looks, plus personally I'd add nitrates weekly too, at least a few ppm.
And while battling bba, remove all affected plants/leaves, do plenty of water changes.


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## NC10 (6 Nov 2014)

The OP has made his own LED's, so no doubt he'll be able to add a few more easily to increase them.

Keep us updated anyway @The Don, be interesting to see how you go about things and the result


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## drodgers (6 Nov 2014)

I agree that the light looks very low .


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## The Don (6 Nov 2014)

I do always try to pick low demanding plants and with this setup as I'm aware my leds were DIY project so couldn't expect the instant sucess I had with my t5 bulb in the old setup but that said I've have had success with the echinodorus, Anublas nana bonsai and the vallis.

The anubias heterophylla which is attached to bogwood initially grew hugely, almost over taken oneside of the tank but of recent it's yellowing, bba and looking sad curling in as in the picture above.

Mircosorium pteropus I attached to a rock and has never really lost that blackness on its leaves or increased in size.

Plants that I have no luck with are like the smaller vallis, hair grass types that never grow or of they do never really getting anywhere.

Is the direction recommended adding nutrients first and seeing if the tank will start looking happier?


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## Ryan Thang To (7 Nov 2014)

Hi
You said your led are the rgb 5050 i only use them for display only and not for aquarium. I would say it definitely not enough light and even adding more of the same led won't help. Your tap water and fish waste would supply enough Nutrients for the plants. I would add a proper aquarium led for plant tank or 1 t5 would do just fine to grow any easy plants. Here my tank.

No fert just water change onces a month and lights on for 7 hours


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## The Don (7 Nov 2014)

Yeah I have two sets of leds: 5metres of 5050 rbg which I have manually chose how much blues, greens and reds I want emitted and a 3metre white led strip built into my DIY lid as the tank didn't come with either. Is it a case of I need to purchase a ready made led light that are purposely made for plant growth as that would create another problem of how to house it in the tank with my current lid and that would increase the heathness of the plants and stop them looking the way they do or is this a suggestion to help make the other light demanding plants grow?


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## ian_m (7 Nov 2014)

Now you have revealed your lighting, and it has hit home (you did mention it first post...), you have way too little light. These LED strips are not really bright enough for use in an aquarium, great for lighting your kitchen cabinet but, as previously pointed out no good for plants. Go to some of the US sites selling 5050 LED strips and no where does it mention aquarium lighting (other than blue for night light), some uses for growing plants, but need a lot of LED strip to do this.

Like your idea of a lid to contain the LED strips, but this will diffuse and reduce the brightness even more. The LED strips are not very directional, so I suspect most of your light is being lost and not getting into the tank.

My mate tried to use these in low tech tank, but suffered complete inability to stick them to existing tank lid (nice idea yours, no glue needed) as what ever glue he used eventually came off, some LEDs failed and/or loosing brightness & turning yellow and finally the water/condensation eventually got into the connections and corroded the internal PCB stopping them working. He fitted a single T5 tube and no issues since.

Something like this may fit on your tank (guessing 120cm) and provide enough light.
http://www.allpondsolutions.co.uk/a...ting/120cm-t5-fish-tank-lights-two-tubes.html

Anyway the chart below from http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=105774 is a rough handy guide to light level.


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## Ryan Thang To (7 Nov 2014)

You can always buy one of this work great. http://www.swelluk.com/aquarium/fis...uahabitats-aquabar-freshwater-led-564648.html


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## sciencefiction (8 Nov 2014)

Ian_m is the king of lighting. He's helped me big time. He knows his stuff so if you need ideas how to upgrade I'd listen to him.


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## The Don (8 Nov 2014)

Ok I'm looking into upgrading the lighting maybe I will be able to install it under my DIY lid. 

Any recommendations on LEDs that aren't overly expensive? Or maybe I could fix a twin t8 with natural tropical grow bulbs under the hood I've seen on a local FB Forum for £25? Or would I see a dramatic increase in my electric bill?


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## ian_m (8 Nov 2014)

The Don said:


> Any recommendations on LEDs that aren't overly expensive? Or maybe I could fix a twin t8 with natural tropical grow bulbs under the hood I've seen on a local FB Forum for £25? Or would I see a dramatic increase in my electric bill?


Proper LEDs that even come near or beat T5s light output are expensive, also as so bright will need a controller or else you will be growing algae rather than plants.

My mate added a T5 to his existing lid replacing failed T8 unit using the Arcadia ballast. Comes with waterproof tube holders and brackets so easy to fix. He went for Juwel tube length rather than "standard" size tube as covered full width of tank. Tubes a lot more expensive but do the job right. Also affixed Juwel reflectors.


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## The Don (8 Nov 2014)

He is also selling an Arcadia ACE254 light unit with 2 x T5 marine white bulbs £25. I could screw that into the underside of the lid and change a bulb to a plant growth?


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## ian_m (8 Nov 2014)

Spectrum of the bulb makes no difference to plant growth. Using the marine bulbs the plants will look washed out and not very green but will adapt and grow fine. You need to choose tubes that make your plants look "nice" see the sticky thread on lighting forum section.

On saying that a freshwater and a plant gro bulb do make the plants stand out. The plant gro is slightly pinkish and plants don't look right if used alone. Anyway either tube plants grow fine.


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## The Don (8 Nov 2014)

Just an update, I've bought the T5's and I'm shocked just how bright they are . I'm definitely going to need something to reflect the lights as my lid isn't containing it! So tomorrow I will make the fixings to attach them to the tank then look for some sort of reflectors. Will post a pic to show you when I'm done!


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## Ryan Thang To (8 Nov 2014)

Sound like a plan. I would start off with one t5 for a month and then if plants are growing good and no aglae and then add another bulb if you like it. normal one bulb is good enough for low tech. Good luck

Cheers
Ryan


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## candymancan (9 Nov 2014)

Hum... tired of people saying spectrum doesn't affect plant growth...  Color spectrum is everything...  If it wasn't why do you think growers for veggies and other plants for indoor use, use pink lighting ?  Pink, reds and blue encourage flowering and better faster growth.

Garuntee if we had identical tanks and you used all blue actinic marine bulbs like you stated..  I could grow my plants far better with a 2/3 Pink light, and 1/3 6700k for the green colorspectrum to make the tank look bright and not dim from the pink lighting.

I wish people in fish tanks with plants would wise up and learn that lighting I don't care how much power and intensity you throw at the plants doesn't matter if you don't have the correct color spectrum..  A low light tank with more Pink lighting will out grow a medium light tank using 6700/10k or actinic lighting..   The only problem with PINK lighting is well it makes tanks look pink or dark...  If you have 4 tubes to light a tank...  Toss 3 pink grow bulbs on and 1 10k light and youll solve that problem...   The problem with most people is they just throw 1,000 watts or a million lumens or 10k PARS over a tank and think... wow its a lot of power and its very bright.... wrong..

http://inhabitat.com/indoor-vertical-farm-pinkhouses-grow-plants-faster-with-less-energy/


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## ian_m (10 Nov 2014)

candymancan said:


> Color spectrum is everything


Again not quite true. Plants have evolved to make use of two areas of the white spectrum from the sun, the red end and blue end, as possibly when they evolved (as algae) other plants/animals were already using the middle of the spectrum or primitive atmosphere blocked the green light.

Thus you can grow plants very well with red or blue light, plants will adapt to use it. We know plants don't use the green part of the spectrum efficiently as they reflect it.

However generating blue light to grow plants, which has a higher energy per photon, requires a lot more energy to produce. So if you are growing commercially where you want to maximise your energy input to plant mass out, red is the way to go. However red has issues, in generating sufficiently powerful red lighting and also not good to place to work in, everything is either red or black and distance perception is affected. However adding a few other colours eg yellow/white makes it easier to work in and plants still grow the same. Handy lights to do this are things like sodium lights. Very energy efficient but not very good as tank lighting as there is no green or blue.

Of course to get even more growth once you have maxed out the red end of the spectrum you can use blue light as well. Before LED's there wasn't any easy way to do this eg mercury arc lights, you always ended up producing green light as well which is wasted as reflected by the plants. So now with LED's you can now efficiently generate huge amounts of light without any green, which is in fact pinkish, as your article shows.

In your tank though you need a spectrum with green in or else plants won't look nice in the plant growing efficient pink light.

Thus as you say you need to mix the tubes so that plants get a lot of spectrum they can use as well as provide green so your plants look nice.


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## ian_m (10 Nov 2014)

The Don said:


> Just an update, I've bought the T5's and I'm shocked just how bright they are . I'm definitely going to need something to reflect the lights as my lid isn't containing it! So tomorrow I will make the fixings to attach them to the tank then look for some sort of reflectors. Will post a pic to show you when I'm done!


Be careful now, you now have some "big boy" lights and with possible reflectors over plants not used to decent levels of light. If you just whop them in the plants will suffer and melt away into algae soup.

You need some way of bring the light level up, slowly from current levels to some thing higher and think about fertilisers and carbon source if you want high light levels. If you have reflectors, you can rotate them round shielding some of the light, this is what I did when I started high tech (with T8 tubes) I ran for first couple of months with reflectors deflecting a lot of light away from the plants. Plants bedded in, but no algae. Eventually rotated round to provide full light. Now got T5 and increased lighting and did make the mistake of just whopping in the T5's without making any attempt to lower levels or shorten light time and guess what algae.....


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## The Don (12 Nov 2014)

Just an update the bulbs got secured in the tank and I'm now looking for refectors as the light was over whelmingly bright. It seems myself and the fish were going to take a while to get used to it, I painted the top of the lid black to stop so much light escaping but unfortunately when doing a water change a second ago I realised why a reflector can be important as the water splashed one of the bulbs and blew it up so I'm down to one until I get another one. Which I will go for the plant growth bulb rather than another Marine white! That said one bulb looks ok?


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## ian_m (12 Nov 2014)

Looks better with brighter light.

See here for tubes and colours. Choose tubes than make your plants & tank look good.
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/cheap-ho-t5-fluorescent-tubes-update-with-photos.555/


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