# Medication advice Please.



## Geraint

Hi. I need a bit of advice please. 

3 days ago, I noticed my long finned bristle nose pleco looked shorter. His fins were rotting away. I ordered Primafix (anti fungal) and Myxazin (antibacterial) which arrived today, and I’ve put the recommended dosage of both in the tank this morning.

All fish are now looking very lethargic (Drunk), and my Pleco can no longer keep his balance when he tries to swim.

I have no experience with medication, so I don’t know weather to do an immediate water change to dilute it a bit, or if this is normal behaviour of fish when medication is added and to carry on with this 5 day treatment.

50 Gallon Tank contains :
2 bristle nose plecos
5 rummy nose tetras,
9 cherry barbs,
3 bronze corries
3 pigmy corries
4 pearl gouramis

1 external 1000l/h filter.
1 internal filer 2000l/h
Heavily planted low tec tank
At least 25% water changes once or twice a week. 
Temp 23-24 degrees. 

I don’t have a test kit, so can’t give you any reading sorry.


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## greenmac75

hi geraint,
I was advised against pimafix by both my lfs, have you checked that you can use both products at the same time?

I was recommended esha 2000, worked for me and it covers a lot of bases,  my galaxy rasbroras had a fungal infection.

I would check out if you can use your products together before continuing.


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## Crossocheilus

Most medications say that they deplete oxygen in the water so you need to increase surface agitation and/or add an air stone. Also it is generally not recommended to add more than one medication at once unless they specifically state that they can be used together.

Deteriorating fins can be caused by some form of poor water quality, the damaged tissue is then infected by bacteria/fungi. Most of these medications only actually deal with the secondary infection, which is only helpful if you can solve the root cause.

Good luck!


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## alto

Always water change before adding medication

Always consider oxygen levels in water before you add medications
- is this a chemical that will sequester oxygen? (many do)
-  what is your tank temp? dissolved oxygen levels in water decrease significantly with temp
-  is this relevant to your particular fish? look at a fish health manuals, look at scientific articles with fish locale details (some will list actual measured oxygen in capture area waters, some will just provide descriptive information)

Medications are stressful to fish - any stress depresses the immune system of fish - are fish more stressed by the disease? or by what you are doing to (possibly) treat the disease?
Most (fish) medications available OTC are "broad spectrum" in the hopes that they will target _something_ that is in your tank (some of the anti-bacterials sold in the trade are only effective against water column bacteria with zero measured activity against the types of bacteria causing disease IN fish, so check the literature ... you may not be sure that the anti-bacterial is effective against the particular agent affecting your fish BUT at least it has some efficacy in fish)

I'm assuming that Primafix is Pimafix - it has been observed to negatively impact fish in many anecdotal situations ranging from minimal to severe fish stress to actual death (within an hour of tank addition) ... API doesn't (won't?) provide any information of Quality Control applied to manufacture of this product; they also don't provide information on how to effectively remove product from water column in case of an adverse reaction.
You can always perform 25% water changes at intervals of 8-12 hours, and add activated carbon/charcoal to your filter.

If your tank & tap water is similar parameter & you can match temp & you know how much chlorine etc your water provider adds & you calculate how much dechlorinator is needed (you want at least a 2-3x excess) etc, then you might perform a 70% - 90% water change; it's often less stressful than a "bad" medication choice.

Looking at your tank parametres, I'd leave the temp 23-24C, or possible decrease slightly to 22 - 23C
You have lots of theoretical flow, so don't need to add another filter, but just set one filter return to gently splash, & the other to provide a rolling motion of the water surface.

Keep tank dimly lit.
Stop feeding fish - not only to limit waste in tank but also fish may not be digesting as actively as needed ... though they will continue to eat.


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## alto

From another forum (though you'd need to confirm with Waterlife that this list is still current) 

Myxazin

*Malachite Green (0.17% w/v), Formaldehyde (0.24% w/v) and Acriflavine (0.11% w/v). *


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## Geraint

Sorry for not replying straight away. I’m having a major melt down.

Doing a water change as we speak after seeing one of my pigmy corries floating upside down.

The internal filter has a venturi aeration nozzle which is on full blast. plus I've added another 2000 l/h hang on filter for added aeration.

I only did a quick google search to see if they could be used together. I read somewhere that primafix is a natural oil, and so should be ok. But I’m highly doubting that now. I used both because the pleco has red around its fin bones suggesting a bacterial issue, but also has white on the fins suggesting fungal. Basically, I’m an idiot. I’m hoping I haven’t just killed them all.


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## Crossocheilus

You made very reasonable assumptions,



Geraint said:


> Basically, I’m an idiot. I’m hoping I haven’t just killed them all.



I know the feeling 

I killed one of my wonderful (and expensive) bamboo shrimp putting him into my high tech when the co2 was really high. Just because I was impatient...

The important thing is to learn from it and move on, even the greatest achievers have experienced failure, its the ability to improve that leads to success. Keep persevering and I really hope your fish pull through.


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## alto

Geraint said:


> Basically, I’m an idiot.


 You're not an idiot!
you've just been sucked in by marketing, welcome to the club 

No one hoping to sell you stuff is going to admit that treating small tropical fish for diseases of unknown origin is greatly subject to chance.

When a fish displays the symptoms you describe, I look to improving my water quality in hopes that other fish won't succumb, reality is that the very obviously ill fish are likely going to die regardless of my (belated) actions.


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## Geraint

alto said:


> You can always perform 25% water changes at intervals of 8-12 hours, and add activated carbon/charcoal to your filter.
> 
> If your tank & tap water is similar parameter & you can match temp & you know how much chlorine etc your water provider adds & you calculate how much dechlorinator is needed (you want at least a 2-3x excess) etc, then you might perform a 70% - 90% water change; it's often less stressful than a "bad" medication choice.
> 
> Keep tank dimly lit.




I can never keep my tap water a constant temperature. I always add it very slowly over a period of an hour with an air tube connected directly to the tap. I've just done a 25% water change the quicker way though because I'm panicking. I’d love to take the lot out.

I have work tomorrow 5am – 6pm, so I think I’ll do another 25% at 4am before work. And another 25% as soon as I get back. I’ll try and book half day to get back sooner. My tetras, barbs and gouramis look fine for now, but my corries and pleco’s are in trouble.
Those medicines are in the bin.

Switched the light off by the plug and it’ll stay off all tomorrow at least.

I don’t have any activated carbon. I didn’t think I needed any with a planted tank. I’ll be ordering some tonight from ebay though.

Thanks for the quick advice.
I cant believe how quickly that went bad.. I’m gutted


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## Another Phil

Hi Geraint,
Sorry to hear of your troubles.
Your catfish are scaleless so you should only use 1/2 the recommended amount of copper based meds ie the malachite green, and probably similar info for the Formalin as well. Searching the web for "safe medications for scaleless fish" might help a bit. That would also explain why the other fish are ok.
good luck phil


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## PARAGUAY

I agree with what has been said very few medications are used in tandem. Esha the exeption I think. Could it be a substrate problem


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## Geraint

Thanks again for the advice. I'll be doing a 25% water change twice a day until things improve. None of the fish have died yet, but without medication, I dont have much hope for my long finned bristle nose. and I'm not sure if my corries have recovered yet (still not as active)



Another Phil said:


> Hi Geraint,
> Sorry to hear of your troubles.
> Your catfish are scaleless so you should only use 1/2 the recommended amount of copper based meds ie the malachite green, and probably similar info for the Formalin as well. Searching the web for "safe medications for scaleless fish" might help a bit. That would also explain why the other fish are ok.
> good luck phil



Makes alot of sense. but the thought of adding any more medication to the tank scares the sh*t out me after last nights episode. and a few above have suggested that an increase in water changes (twice a day) might be enough? I've seen websites that say Pimafix and melafix are completely safe for scaleless fish, but that doesn't seem to be the case.



PARAGUAY said:


> I agree with what has been said very few medications are used in tandem. Esha the exeption I think. Could it be a substrate problem



I've read a few reviews on esha where corries (also scaleless) have been cured of fin rot. eshas website says it's safe for corries, shrimp, snails and algae eating fsh... So I assume its safe for the plecos. but I can equally find good reviews in regards to melafix/pimafix, so I'm not at all confident. it seems to be an anti fungal and anti bacterial all in one? If it worked it'd be perfect, but I dont want to make the same mistake as last night. 
_ESHA 2000 (UK) - INGRED: 6.3 mg ethacridine lactate, (AKA: Rivanol, an antibacterial acridine, sometimes used to treat shigella.) 1 mg proflavin, an acridine closely related to acriflavin and used for protozoans (velvet), gram positive bacteria, and fungus. 3.2 mg Copper ++ - Treats: protozoans (ich and velvet). Note: Effective against parasites, but often toxic to fish, espceially in soft water. 0.26 mg methyl orange - a multifunctional product._
Seems to contail copper. and that bit about often toxic to fish.... I dont know.



alto said:


> :


Alto.. you seem to be much more experianced than me. What would you? stick to the  twice a day water changes only and hope for the best or medicate?


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## alto

pH & hardness of water also impact medications - any chance you can get some numbers on these?
(your local water provider should be able send you a report with tap water details ie not just pH & GH, KH etc but also elemental analysis).

I'd wait 3 days before adding in any new/further medications, yes you may lose fish, but chances are you will lose fish if you increase stress levels with more/new medications.

If the issue is actually bacterial, then I'd be looking to add an antibiotic such as sulfathiazole, kanamycin, neomycin ... (Seachem offers some of the "cleanest" meds for fish) 
Note that even when treating with an effective medication, you still need to perform daily water changes & optimize oxygen levels; after a water change, medication may be re-dosed for total tank volume or just for change volume - this is determined by the "durability" of the particular medication under tank conditions.
Fish Health manuals or online scientific articles are often good sources for this sort of information; the Skeptical Aquarist has working links to some of the Fish Health Management series published some years ago by EDIS (University of Florida) (these include the basics of aquarium management while treating, also specific disease articles).

Most of the meds such as the 2000 are trying to cover all the bases by adding a bit of everything & not therapeutic doses of anything ...

If your fish seem less stressed with the water changes, then right now, that is the best method.
Wait another 24 hours & then re-assess.
While waiting, sort out what's available in terms of medications.



Geraint said:


> Those medicines are in the bin.


 I wish you'd take these back to the shop & lodge a complaint, note the lot numbers & send an email off to the manufacturers ... this is the only way to get warnings on labels; make sure you cc several levels of company management


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## alto

Just checking in to see if fish are doing a bit better


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## Geraint

long finned pleco died last night. my other pleco and one bronze corry died today (and the other two bronze corries dont look far behind). I haven't seen my three pigy corries for a while. . Completely gutted. Had them for just over a year, but they could have lived for another 7. 

I'm still doing twice a day 25% water changes. 

I've ordered interpet anti fin rot and fungus which should arrive on monday, and I plan on dosing at only half strengh. I've picked this medication because a friend of mine who has a huge pleco uses it on his tank at full strengh. I just hope it's not to late for the last 2 corries. I'm more than half expecting to come home tomorrow to find them dead. 

I've taken your advice and asked my water provider (welsh water) to send me a report. I should have it monday. 

I will be buying a U.V steriliser. I'm reading up on them and trying to figure out which one is best for my tank. 

I already do at least a 25% water change at least once a week, sometimes twice depending on how much time i find myself with. 
I might replace my internal filter with somthing more effective. I need to look nto it. 

just gutted.


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## alto

Sorry for the sad news - any chance anything came into the tank in the last 1-3 months? (it's nice to at least imagine an outside agent!)

Also check with your water provider re any work on the system, check your local area for any water works maintenance, or building projects that may've triggered something in the water quality.

Do your research before investing in a UV - look at the output energies for various lamps/systems & then compare for what's needed to affect common freshwater fish pathogens ... I'll try to find that chart later this week & post the link. 



Geraint said:


> I might replace my internal filter with somthing more effective


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## Geraint

Its the medication. The combination of the two, or just both medications being too strong as full dosages for the scaless fish. No doubt in my mind that whats happened is a direct rsult of my actions. 

The initial fin rot i saw on my pleco could have been a combinaton of things. 
This month:
 - I Replaced my external filter. my original one starte leaking, so i bought a new one. kept the same media though..The original external filter had a UV steriliser on it. the new one didn't. 
-  I changed the substrate on over half the tank to a darker type of playsand. the sand was washed befre putting it in, but the process might have stressed the fish a little. although they didn't look unhappy. 
- I also bought a couple of new plants.


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## alto

Geraint said:


> No doubt in my mind that whats happened is a direct rsult of my actions.


Possibly but generally fish will recover from medication stress (the negative impact of Pimafix is an issue the manufacturer needs to address)  ... your description of the pleco suggests internal bacterial infection & this is generally related to water quality or long term "mild" stress (inappropriate tankmates etc) ... sometimes cories seem to just fade away (I think this is something internal (viral? inbreeding?))
When treating tanks with cories, I just always start at 1/4 -  1/2 dose, then (usually) increase to full dose without issue - cories are generally stressed re reduced activity but no aberrant swimming/breathing ... they just return to normal activity once medication is cleared & you realize how quiet they'd grown.  

If fish were not panicking during the substrate exchange that seems an unlikely long term impact, that said, play sand can have additives to reduce molds etc (I think this is more a NA trend than UK).
Plants are more likely to introduce parasites ("egg" stages) than anything bacterial (& would need to come out of a fish display or banked system), or possibly copper/fertilizers but again this is not too likely when adding in just a couple plants (but I don't add Singapore etc plants without a good rinse & never in the pot with the rock wool etc).

Sometimes, stuff just happens  ...

Looking at your tank list, I'd increase the shoal numbers on the cories (especially for the pygmy's) & tetras - even if the pearl Gouramis seem to ignore their smaller tankmates - that said, there are loads of instances of unlikley fish combinations that work for years ....
I don't know the dimensions of your tank, it's possible that the 2 bristlenoses were just not going to share that space long term ...


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## Geraint

Tank Dimentions : D40cm, H40cm, L100cm.
The long finned pleco would always chase the other pleco away if he got to close. and the other pleco would always run away. but i figured thats normal for plecos. I never saw them fighting in any way.
I'd hope its not water quality. I already have two filters. I've never missed a water change, and the tank is filled with plants. I feed them once a day, somtimes skipping a day.... I do have ongoing problem with green spotted algae on my anubias, but I've been putting that down to too much light. I dont know.



alto said:


> your description of the pleco suggests internal bacterial infection & this is generally related to water quality or long term "mild" stress (inappropriate tankmates etc)


I didn't see any signs of internal bacteria. There was no bloting, raised scales. His eyes and colour looked normal. Is there anything else to look for? All i saw on him was bits of white on the edges of his fins, which had rotted away a bit (making him look alot shorter and smaller), and a slight red colour (where his white markings usually are) along his fin bones.. I figured this was puerly external bacterial and fungal. he died beore the fin rot reached his body, so i assum it wasn't that that killed him. He did stop eating though.. not sure if thats a sign of somthng internal?
none of the other fish showed any symptoms before the medication. All seemed happy, swimming out in the open, with no aggresion towards eachother at all. the cherry barbs would chase the cherry barbs, the gouramiswould chase the other gouramis ect.



alto said:


> but I don't add Singapore etc plants without a good rinse & never in the pot with the rock wool etc


I bought hairgrass that came in a pot with wool. I put them in the tank still in the pot with wool for the first few days until I'd done the subsstrate change.. I didn't think this would have been an issue. I bought them on ebay from someone in devon.


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## alto

> bits of white on the edges of his fins, which had rotted away a bit (making him look alot shorter and smaller)


While this may begin with external trauma (other fish or décor or increased water column bacteria/DOC's), it quickly becomes internal as well.



> a slight red colour (where his white markings usually are) along his fin bones..


Classic sign of internal bacterial infection.



Geraint said:


> He did stop eating though.. not sure if thats a sign of somthng internal?


This is a major sign of disease/unwellness - they will continue to eat while they are feeling slightly unwell, at this stage he may've had internal parasites or even "impaction" (fish that are "designed" to eat a mostly vegetable/aufwachs diet in nature, may eat too much "meat" based foods in aquaria (frozen bloodworms, pellet, flake etc) resulting in poor longevity), secondary infections are rapid in fish (there is always a "normal flora" of external & internal pathogens, some of which are helpful to the host ... until balance is lost).
Fish that rush over in response to food, only to eat a few bites, spitting out most of the food, then retreating are often suffering from internal parasites (of various sorts), this is in contrast to fish that remain aloof from food (food response has been lost).

It's easy in planted tanks to not pay sufficient attention to buildup of substrate detritus  which is why I suggest water quality may've had some impact, though if this was the pleco that was always chased & never the chaser, stress maybe the original issue:  fin damage may've been done in an instant when fish could not retreat far/fast enough, once the damage is past the edges re


> making him look alot shorter and smaller


 internal bacterial infection is quickly established, then fish is also in a  situation when he's been vanquished quite roundly & he's now trying to stay out of dominant territory & often won't come out to eat etc ... signs can be quite subtle, just a fin flick can remind the loser than he'd best stay away ... usually a 100cm tank is sufficient for a couple of BN's as they are often not that territorial but there are always exceptions

(I had a female ram that terrorized everyone in the tank, including any cories ... she got her only little 20 gal with a horde of guppies for company ... tank was heavily planted & they didn't seem to mind her ... apparently guppies are not as silly as they seem but I often wonder if those studies were done with wild stocks rather than the inbred fancy lines) 

The plant is likely not the issue.


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## Geraint

I dont know. I feed the fish Topical flakes, King British Catfish pellets, King British Algae Wafers, New Life Spectrum Thera +A Regular Formula (with added Garlic), Freeze dried Daphnia + Tubifex Worms, and Frozen Bloodworms/Daphnia/Copepods...I'll chuck a few peas and a slice of cucumber in now and then. 

I didn't think substrate detritus was a big issue in a planted tank. Plants use it as fertalizer? I dont activly look to clean it up anymore, but there's never much of it anyway. just bits around the stem plants at the back of the tank. 

The slight red along the fin bones was there before the medication.
My reasoning so far is that the pleco somehow became stressed (aggression with other pleco/eating too much meat?waterquality) and aquaired external and internal infections. improper medication treatemnt led to the lowering of the imune system of my initial pleco along with all the other scaless fish resulting in the rest of the fish catching the same internal infections and dying.
So.... to stop this happening again:
- I'll make alot mroe hiding places for future pleco's. and only have one per tank?
- Future pleco's to be fed more vegitable's (I'm not convinced this was the issue, but cant say for certain)
- replace my internal filter with one that can hold more surface area and one that has a higher flow rate, which might improve water quality.
- medicate at 1/4 doseages and increase to 1/2, not mixing medication. 
- Add a UV steriliser to keep water column bacteria in check, to reduc the risk of infection should the fish become stressed. and continue with weekly 25% water changes?
- Tap water report should arrive tomorrow, so I'll see where i stand there.

I've been reading on U.V sterilises. Many posts are suggesting that that regular water changes can have the same result.
Not sure if my logic is correct, but surely a 25% water change will only dilute bacterial counts by 25%, once a week. whereas a U.V steriliser running constantly is going to have a similar effect to the constant drip water change system (as far as water column bacteria numbers are concerned), but at a higher rate? If I assume that 0.5% of the bacteria gets killed by the U.V sterilise every hour (I've picked that number out of nowhere, but seems reasonably conservative if the its pumping 400l/h hour on a 200l tank?), then within a week about 60% of the original bacteria that was there has been sterilised.


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## Geraint

Water report came through... but means nothing to me.


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## alto

Hi Geraint
hope your tank is doing better now.
I don't see anything in the water report that would cause concern, though it doesn't rule out any local service that may've upset water conditions.


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## Geraint

The tank is not much better. nothing has died in a while, but there's obviously a problem. 

All my plants began to melt away (turn brown and die). my tank became a cloudy brown colour. I guessed that this was becasue my filter couldn't cope with the amount of decaying plant matter, therefore a bacterial bloom in the water colum errupted. Water changes every day, along with picking out the dead leaves didn't help, so I decided to pull all the plants out (All were dying quicker than i could handle). The tank is currently a bed of sand, with a bit of wood and a small amount of surface plants that arn't growing. 

Daily water changes (25%) have comntinued, but the tank is still cloudy. I have a 36w UV steriliser in place, but I dont want to switch it on until the tank becomes clear on ts own (i think the bacteria causing the cloudy water is a good thing for the tank until the filter catches up)

I dont know...
Thanks for the help anyway.


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## sciencefiction

Sorry to hear about your fish. It's upsetting when that happens.



Geraint said:


> I will be buying a U.V steriliser. I'm reading up on them and trying to figure out which one is best for my tank


 
I U.V steriliser, with the correct size and flow for the tank and not part of a filter helps a lot with preventing diseases and even helps a diseased fish fight off infections.



Geraint said:


> I already do at least a 25% water change at least once a week, sometimes twice depending on how much time i find myself with.
> I might replace my internal filter with somthing more effective. I need to look nto it.


 
More effective filtration and more water changes are always best. And more water  changes especially now that the fish needed it to recover.



Geraint said:


> I changed the substrate on over half the tank to a darker type of playsand. the sand was washed befre putting it in, but the process might have stressed the fish a little. although they didn't look unhappy.



Possibly an ammonia spike caused your problem. If the pleco's fin's rotted in a very short period of time as in a couple of days, it's ammonia. It happened to me once. I woke up with a bunch of corys with rotting fish after I thoroughly washed the filters a day or two prior. Ammonia was through the roof. Changing the substrate can cause a spike too more often than not.  All I did was put the fish in another stable tank and they all recovered and are still alive 4 years after. But if I left them one more day in there, who knows...Also, once subjected to bad conditions, fish tend to succumb to proper diseases eventually a month or two down the line so you've got to keep the water tip top.

Someone else mentioned that adding medication is like a lottery, may or may not help no matter what you try. I'd avoid it if you've no idea what you are dealing with and stick to a UV steriliser instead. It's helped me the most.  If you haven't added any fish that have possibly infected the tank with an "infectious" disease then the culprit is bad tank conditions and reversing that problem will help the strongest fish survive the ordeal.




alto said:


> a slight red colour (where his white markings usually are) along his fin bones..


 



alto said:


> bits of white on the edges of his fins, which had rotted away a bit (making him look alot shorter and smaller)


 
Yes, can be sign of septicaemia or a sign of ammonia burn too. If it's septicaemia, it will be red streaks, lines. If it's ammonia burn, fins rot and appear reddish at the base.


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## sciencefiction

Geraint said:


> I've been reading on U.V sterilises. Many posts are suggesting that that regular water changes can have the same result.



Swith on the UV steriliser immediately  Regular water changes don't have the same effect as a properly setup UV steriliser.  Those that suggest the opposite haven't tried it both ways.  To give you an  example, I had a platy with dropsy that recovered in a UV sterilised tank. No amount of water changes can do that.  That was an achievement as this is totally incurable. I just can't recommend them enough if you've no idea how to cure sick fish. I had another poorly livebearer that had swollen gills sticking out and was hanging for dear life at the surface of one of my tanks for a week, lost weight too. It totally recovered once I "sterilised" it in another tank and unfortunately decided to give birth to several generations of fry too  It's now a fat healthy happy fish chasing it's own kids all day long .The trick is the flow threw the UV to be really slow and the UV to be proper wattage for the tank size.



Geraint said:


> i think the bacteria causing the cloudy water is a good thing for the tank until the filter catches up



No, it's not a good thing. The bacteria causing cloudy water is heterotrophic bacteria. It's efficiency at converting ammonia to nitrites is about a million times less effective than the right bacteria and it can't convert nitrites to nitrates.  The problem is the heterotrophs occupy all surfaces that should be occupied by the proper nitrogen bacteria, eat all their food too, thus suffocating the nitrogen bacteria and your tank is in a bad state. Flush that cloud of bacs as often as you can with fresh water to help the proper bacteria multiply instead.


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## sciencefiction

Geraint said:


> I didn't think substrate detritus was a big issue in a planted tank. Plants use it as fertalizer? I dont activly look to clean it up anymore, but there's never much of it anyway. just bits around the stem plants at the back of the tank.


 
I've never cleaned the substrate in my planted tanks. I never had an issue of any sort as long as it's not disturbed but if you turn it upside down I am sure there'll be issues  I keep lots of corys and with nice long barbels sifting through the never cleaned substrate for years.


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## Geraint

ok. I'll take all of your advice and switch the UV steriliser on. 
I've gone for a 36w and attached it to the outlet of my 1000l/h canister filter. I read that for an 18w steriliser a flow rate of 500l/h was needed. so i'm assuming double the wattage for double the flow rate? 

ammonia spike seems most likely to have caused the initial problem then. I've both bought a new external filter and changed the substrate that month. I didn't realize either was so dangerous.


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## alto

Not quite the chart I was looking for but it gives you an idea of the energies required

Figure 2. Recommended zap doses for different organisms.

Figure 1. Recommended zap doses for different organisms.



> Maintenance and regular bulb replacement are important, because UV-bulbs quickly lose their initial strength. Most UV bulbs need replacing every 6–9 months.



EDIS is one of the best sources on the net for easy access "_scholar level_" articles

Water flowing into/through the UV should be "polished" - any particles greatly reduce the potential efficacy of the process.
Check that quartz sleeves are used in the unit, anything else reduces transmission significantly, also lamps should be made with quartz glass; flow is important and there should be recommendations in the instruction booklet.   
This article though written for the Water Board has some decent summary information on the mechanics of UV (references included )




Geraint said:


> Daily water changes (25%) have comntinued, but the tank is still cloudy.


This may be bacterial or an algae (think green water sort which comes in many colors other than green) - either way the UV should help clear this up, so getting that going seems a good decision.
Even with the UV keep up with frequent water changes - if you're able to monitor ammonia & nitrites/nitrates, I'd do so (Seachem has an ammonia alert that may be useful), this may reassure you in regards your N-cycle bacteria.




Geraint said:


> ammonia spike seems most likely to have caused the initial problem then. I've both bought a new external filter and changed the substrate that month. I didn't realize either was so dangerous.


Maybe ... transferring existing media over to a new filter can be done with no significant impact on the biofilter, as can substrate changes & tank tear downs - it all depends on the bioload & understanding what's important to the existing biofilter bacteria sitting in that canister etc, eg most people are concerned about keeping them submerged rather than well oxygenated.

In a heavily planted tank it's possible for the actual biofilter population (in the filter) to be very low as plants consume the ammonia as quickly as it's produced, if you overfeed or have a high fish load, this is less likely an occurrence  - with mostly slow growing plants this is less likely than in a high tech, fast growth system.




Geraint said:


> so I decided to pull all the plants out (All were dying quicker than i could handle). The tank is currently a bed of sand, with a bit of wood and a small amount of surface plants that arn't growing.


So sorry to read this - I do think you may a good call just removing the plants.
Which surface plants do you have?
Salvia natans is known to absorb compounds readily (from the water) so you might try moving them over to a clean bin with just sunlight/desklamp for several days & see if they improve - again, change some water daily (you can likely just have 2 bins & swap plants to the next bin which just has treated tap etc water), after a few days, add some small amount of fertilizer to the bin water ... once you see consistent signs of growth, add half of them back to your tank (keep growing on the remaining half until the tank group looks good).

It's an easy assumption that the plants began dying off in response to the medications, though if you had a large population of Cryptocorynes or Aponogetons, these may "melt" just in response to changing water conditions/"_unbalance_"   ... if you still have the bulbs/rhizomes, you may be able to recover them by setting up an emerse propagator.
(even if you've binned them, just dig them out & rinse & re-plant )







sciencefiction said:


> Yes, can be sign of septicaemia or a sign of ammonia burn too. If it's septicaemia, it will be red streaks, lines. If it's ammonia burn, fins rot and appear reddish at the base


Internal bacterial infection can certainly cause many of the symptoms observed in this tank (not sure what this has to do with septicaemia) but once a primary "challenge" occurs, secondary infections follow very quickly in fish.


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## sciencefiction

alto said:


> Internal bacterial infection can certainly cause many of the symptoms observed in this tank (not sure what this has to do with septicaemia) but once a primary "challenge" occurs, secondary infections follow very quickly in fish.


 
Thought of septicaemia because someone mentioned red streaks. Internal bacterial infection is associated with white poop too, similar to what parasites cause and fish will be skinny too. I don't know how is it so likely for the fish to have internal bacterial infection based on the evidence provided.
As I mentioned, unless new fish were introduced, the disease is not infectious but caused by either sudden or systematic bad water quality and the latter if not fixed on time, can progress to diseases caused by opportunistic germs all tanks have.  By what Geraint said, including the cloudy water associated with ammonia spikes, I bet it at least started with water quality. I don't know why everyone jumps on medicating tanks when 99% of the times we have no idea what the fish have.


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## Geraint

Article looks interesting. It'll take me a while to read through it all and work out how to do the dose calculations, so I'll come back to that when I have more time. 

the surface plant I currently have is Hydrocotyle Leucocephal. I used to have loads of it at the surface, and it looked gread. I only have a few strands now. The cloudy water only began after the fish had died and after the plants all began to melt. I thought this was due to the increased amount of decaying matter, but perhaps the plants were absorbing alot less amonia due to their melting, resulting in the cloudiness.. or a bit of both.  

this was my tank at its best (you can see my long finned pleco on the anubias leaf)... I dare not show anyone what it looks like now


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## alto

I'm still not convinced of the supposed poor water quality triggering this series of events ..... my take remains that aggression between the 2 BN's resulted in the first observed ill fish, then application of meds which dramatically affected fish (I completely blame API on this one, as they refuse to place an warning label on Pimafix) & so the  downward spiral goes ...

Geraint has shown such dedication to his tank & fish!



Geraint said:


> This month:
> - I Replaced my external filter. my original one starte leaking, so i bought a new one. kept the same media though..The original external filter had a UV steriliser on it. the new one didn't.
> -  I changed the substrate on over half the tank to a darker type of playsand. the sand was washed befre putting it in, but the process might have stressed the fish a little. although they didn't look unhappy.
> - I also bought a couple of new plants.



If tank doesn't stabilize soon, I'd switch out the substrate, just in case something is leaching that has affected plants & fish.
You might contact the supplier/manufacturer & request details on the product - if it's revealed that some antibacterial/antifungal is used, then you've an idea, if nothing is supposedly used, then you're not assured that sand was not contaminated at some stage in production/storage ... all you can do is go back to any changes made to the tank in the month leading up & consider the (likely remote) possibilities ... sometimes blahblahblahblah just happens   

An example of (household) sponges which are now almost all treated, though many do not carry a warning as it's not a product designed/expected for aquarium use.


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## alto

Geraint said:


> Hydrocotyle Leucocephal.


 this you can definitely get going again using emersed propagation

I'm surprised that the Anubias went into a complete decline, those leaves are generally pretty sturdy - the rhizome on it & the nymphaea would be worth attempting emerse growth.

If you're up to it, post current photos, there may be some good ideas that come out of it ... 



Geraint said:


> The cloudy water only began after the fish had died and after the plants all began to melt. I thought this was due to the increased amount of decaying matter, but perhaps the plants were absorbing alot less amonia due to their melting, resulting in the cloudiness.. or a bit of both.


It's all interconnected.

What fish do you have remaining & how are they in terms of activity/behavior?


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## sciencefiction

I have had 5 tanks for years now and I have done a lot of messing. A simple substrate switch ones caused a 6 month problem with my fish.  I won't mention the times when I messed with the filter. I think I already mentioned my corys.  Changing media from one filter to another shouldn't theoretically cause a problem unless the new filter is less efficient flow wise. Everything together is not working and I agree the meds are not doing any good.



alto said:


> I'm still not convinced of the supposed poor water quality triggering this series of events ..


 
This is the number 1 cause of any sort of diseases and you'll be surprised how many events just the one spike can trigger.


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## alto

sciencefiction said:


> A simple substrate switch ones caused a 6 month problem with my fish


 That surprises me - but I generally remove fish to a holding bin when doing substantial rescapes & have never had notable losses or apparent negative impact ... I used to rinse mechanical filter media weekly, bio-filter media monthly without apparent effect (now I'm too lazy & rarely open the canister or clean the tubing )
 I have lost almost every fish in tanks after a "normal" water change (both instances traced back to water company changes), have dealt with odd parasites/viruses in wild caught fishes

In this instance tank looks to have healthy plant growth, reasonable fish load, weekly water changes ... only a single fish affected at the start ...
-  if several fish had exhibited fin damage, low activity etc then I might agree that water quality was a significant preceding factor.

(perhaps I should admit that I've cultured loads of bacteria & isolated my "protein of interest" & run a million enzyme mechanism assays)


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## sciencefiction

alto said:


> That surprises me - but I generally remove fish to a holding bin when doing substantial rescapes & have never had notable losses or apparent negative impact ...


 
The fish were in a holding bin while I was changing the substrate, in their own old water with the filters running.  The tank and filters were 4 years old about. I changed all the substrate with new.
I've never lost fish due to water changes. And I change 50% weekly on all 5 tanks.
I guess we all speak from experience and we're all right



alto said:


> if several fish had exhibited fin damage, low activity etc then I might agree that water quality was a significant preceding factor.


 
I thought several fish died. Water quality is almost always a preceding factor whether people admit it or not.


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## Geraint

alto said:


> I'm surprised that the Anubias went into a complete decline, those leaves are generally pretty sturdy - the rhizome on it & the nymphaea would be worth attempting emerse growth


the leaves were all turning completely brown and melting away. I'd cut away the bad ones, but then have a load more brown the following day. by the end i was left with just the rhizomes, which i threw onto the compost heap.



alto said:


> If you're up to it, post current photos, there may be some good ideas that come out of it ...


I'd have to borrow my sisters camera. I may do.



alto said:


> What fish do you have remaining & how are they in terms of activity/behavior?


I have cherry barbs (9) and pearl gourami (4), rummy nose tetra (1), Cardinal Tetra (1).  All are eating fine. chaseing eachother around the tank. No signs of stress or disease.



sciencefiction said:


> I thought several fish died. Water quality is almost always a preceding factor whether people admit it or not.



It was initially only my long finned bristle nose pleco that had fin rot. All other fish were eating fine, playing and looked in good condition. as did my plants. It was within hours of adding the medication that my fish began looking lethargic. The Corries all lost balance and were swimming upside down and lying on their sides. During the water change that followed, the other pleco didn't move from the top of my internal filter and was "sleeping?" outside of the water. I had to push him back into the water where he swam to the back of the tank (I was having a melt down at this point). Over the next few days both pleco's and all my corries died. The plants then began to melt away, and the tank became cloudy. At this point I lost 4 of my rummyy nose tetras and 2 of my cardinal tetras. Pretty much all plants were then removed.
I've since added a 36w UV steriliser to the outlet of my 1000l/h external filter which was switched on last night. However the tank is still cloudy today. I'm not sure if this means that the steriliser is not having enough of an effect, or if the cloudyness is not biological.
25% daily water changes are still ongoing and will continue until i see clear water again.
I'll just keep doing what I'm doing and see If there's any improvement next weekend.


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## sciencefiction

I doubt it the UV sterlizer will clear up cloudiness caused by heterotrohic bacteria but it will clear green water algae if that's what you have. You have it connected to a filter outlet and I would presume the flow going through the UV is too high. In order for them to be effective, they are better off with their own power head set on slow flow. Check the manual of the UV, it normally tells you the max flow recommended.
To be honest, the consequences of events reminds me of my own mistakes when I jump to action before I think of consequences. Rushing to add meds is always a bad move. Unfortunately we've all done it. You've seen it didn't help the slightest. I can't know if the water quality was good or bad prior, you know better, but if it was bad, adding the meds is a death sentence. You could have done a complete water change if you saw the fish reacting badly to the meds within hours. I've used interpet anti fin rot and fungus on my corys full dose, and none of them died, but it didn't help the slightest either(the tank held my bristlenose pleco too and he's fine about 2 years after). I haven't ever used Primafix. I once tried melafix years ago, the corys started shooting to the surface for air, so I immediately changed all water and I can't tell you if it would have killed them or not because they are still alive 4-5 years later. I am not sure if you mixed the meds or not, but that should never be done, only in rare cases when both meds are compatible.

I think what you are doing now is right, just keep up with it until things go better, water changes, water changes..and patience..  This may take some time though but what will survive will survive, for the rest it's too late.


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## cichlidlover

We have stopped going to one LFS after my other half was sold Medication that was intended for Koi and other large cold water fish when she found one of our Denisonii barbs sick. The Meds killed nearly all our fish after she was advised on the dose to use, they also sold her Phosphate removing foam????
The ironic thing about it though is that we have allways kept isha 2000 in the cabinet, and having used it for years with no ill effects I trust this companies products totally, but because she panics when the fish are poorly she forgot we had some to hand!


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## sciencefiction

This is so sad to hear. It must have been a horrible experience.


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