# One last try



## Themuleous (14 Dec 2009)

Well people, I stripped my 4ft down again two weeks ago today.  A complete strip down, filter, new substrate, everything.  And given how well my work tank is doing I figured I do the same in the hope it would sort whatever is wrong with this dam tank.  Quick stats

Tank - 48x18x18"
Filter - Eheim 2080 1700lph
Pump - Ehem +3000 3000lph
Substrate - Akadama
Ferts - 8ml TPN+ 3x a week, with 50% water change
Hardscape - TGM welsh blue stone
Plants - 100% HC
CO2 - Pressurised, DC yellow.
Lighting - 2x54w T5.

I got the HC from this tank, as you can see its in top notch health.






And this is what two weeks in my 4ft did to it. Growth, but very slow and the new leaves turn brown very quickly. Why, oh why, oh why?













I feel like I have tried literally everything (I always make a point of leaving the tank for at least three weeks after a change, normally four before trying something different to see if there is any difference).  I've tried eco-complete and it is the third lot of Akadama, I tried 1 light tube and then 3 light tubes.  I've tried more ferts, different ferts (previously powder ferts) more ferts, I even tried replacing the light unit to an Arcadia T8 unit at a cost of Â£50!  I've had this tank over a year now and still nothing!

Given the ample flow in the tank, could too much flow could be the issue? Perhaps bruising the leaves somehow?

Does anyone else use the TGM Welsh blue stone in their tanks?  TGM I guess, I've seen it!

I've well and truly got to then end of my wick with this tank, if nothing works this time, I'll probably leave the hobby and try marines, for certain the tank would be converted to a general community tank as I've wanted to keep discus for a while now.

Thanks all.

Sam


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## Nick16 (14 Dec 2009)

wow an eheim compact+ 30,000, i was about to say that must be hench, but its only kicking out 300lph   

anyway, i think this must be a mystery because you have tried everything like you say and not even a sign of improvement. i take it you have tried RO?


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## Themuleous (14 Dec 2009)

Sorry, dam google toolbar sodding up the words again.  Its a +3000 running at 3000lph.

Yet tried RO and rain water and 100% tap. The thing about the water is that I use tap in my other tanks and the plants in those do just fine, though those aren't what you would call 'planted'

Yesterday I added an internal powerhead running at 1500lph, to see if despite everything its too little flow, not that I think it is.

Sam


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## JamesM (14 Dec 2009)

I'm going to suggest you need more light and more N.


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## Garuf (14 Dec 2009)

I think you might have a point there, James! Though there should be plenty it does seem highly indicitive of lower light, especially since if you think that most plants that attach to woods are the same plants that cope with low light and the ones that don't are the ones perceived as being highlight/high flow plants!


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## Garuf (14 Dec 2009)

Oh, also, can we see a full tank shot please?


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## Themuleous (14 Dec 2009)

The thing about the N is that I tried some crypts and they didnt grow either, which I would think would grow pretty well even in sub-par conditions? Also, my tap water is loaded with N?

Having said that, it is definately worth a try, what would you suggest?   How much N would suggest I use given that I'm using TPN+? Also, the light unit has a thrid bulb so I can whack that on? 

As a side thought could the rocks be leaking something?

Sam


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## Garuf (14 Dec 2009)

I've heard that some of the slates in wales contain high levels of leads and coppers but I don't know of any way of checking that that is even a problem, the only thing I can suggest is to whip the stones out and see.

I'm not light expert so I'll leave out on an answer to that one.


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## JamesM (14 Dec 2009)

The rocks could be upsetting a balance within the tank, but I think you are light limited. Add the third tube and more if you can - hc simply adores high light and co2, and struggles without it. Maybe a switch to dry powders is in order too?


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## Themuleous (14 Dec 2009)

Here you go Gareth





I'll whip the rocks out for the time being, cant hurt!!

Just to throw it into the mix, I found this photo of the very first HC I put in the tank when I set it up, so it is possible!  I never did work out then why this HC died, which it did, in exactly the same way as it is now.

From this





to this in a few weeks.





I'll try the more lighting and more N as well 

Sam


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## Themuleous (14 Dec 2009)

Thanks guys, I know it must be rather tiresome me going on like this all the time.

Sam


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## Garuf (14 Dec 2009)

How old are the tubes? I know that older tubes are generally seen as being bad news. I know it's something ceg says isn't a phenomena but I had my gloss growing vertically in my old 60cm till I changed the tubes and it started growing normally, the only thing I changed was the tubes.


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## JamesM (14 Dec 2009)

Themuleous said:
			
		

> Thanks guys, I know it must be rather tiresome me going on like this all the time.
> 
> Sam


Not at all Sam, we want you to succeed 

Your light unit looks quite high too - can you lower it closer to the water a bit? Move your DC around a bit too - and use the fish for signs of co2 being too high. If the fish are ok, you CAN go a little higher


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## rawr (15 Dec 2009)

I'm not sure what it could be but I'd definately try more lighting. HC needs a lot of light, and even from the photo your tank looks quite dimly lit.


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## Stu Worrall (15 Dec 2009)

just a thought but have you tried attaching some HC to a sponge or something and growing it just under the surface?  If it grows it would prove its not the water/tank thats causing the dieback.  All the HC ive put in my 90cm was grown just under the surface on my rio 125 when it attached itself to some moss tied to wood.


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## Vito (15 Dec 2009)

im having a tough time with this plant at the moment and I have 100% HC in my tank and nothing else but only after a good year of aquascaping have i realized that i was dosing the wrong ammounts of KN03 and I have upped the dosage to proper level and the hc seems to be much greener and healthier, the leave are so tiny in conparison to when I was growing it emmersed, I have the co2 at 4BPS minimum and got the ceramic diffuser running into the intake and I just have a U shaped outlet that seems to give good circulation as I have placed the drop checker in many spots to ensure everywhere is co2 enriched. One thing im not so sure about is temperature, I have read the cold can effect them I dont know what and ideal temperature is but I would crank it up a few degrees.


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## John Starkey (15 Dec 2009)

Hi Sam,one point on the tropica + thing,as you may remember my tap water is loaded with N yet i still dose 8ml per day five days a week and it doesent seem to be doing it any harm,
regards john.


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## Fred Dulley (15 Dec 2009)

With a PAR meter you can rule out whether it's light or not. A reading of 100 just above the gravel is perfect for HC.
How do you know that the tap water is loaded with N+P. Water company stats?


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## plantbrain (16 Dec 2009)

HC is a very under demanding weed.
That is with respect to light and nutrients.

That leaves only CO2, you can see how easily it grows with any number of fertilizer and sediments using the DSM.

It grows easily on my emergent wood, on my filter sponge etc.
When the CO2 goes south, so does the plant.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## dw1305 (16 Dec 2009)

Hi all,
Sam wrote 





> as you may remember my tap water is loaded with N


.
That is not necessarily true through-out  the whole year. It depends a little bit upon the source of the nitrates (agricultural run-off or "waste water" via the sewage works), but in the winter when the flow in the river (that is either feeding a reservoir or from which the water is directly abstracted) will be much greater. The greater volume of water dilutes any pollutants, and the water is then much lower in nitrates etc. The same happens to the effluent stream flowing to the sewage works, it is more dilute in winter.  

If the source of your nitrates are largely agricultural, as well as the greater dilution effect from increased rainfall, there are less livestock on the fields, and most importantly no application of nitrogenous fertilisers to crops. Our tap water will contain less than 10ppm NO3 at the moment , but this will rise to over 30ppm in the spring when a large amount of nitrogen is applied to the fields. 

It's only if your water supply comes entirely from a very deep aquifer that these seasonal differences are nullified, in this case the water supply is very unlikely to contain many pollutants at any time of year due to the filtering effect of the rock layers leading to the aquifer and because it may be "fossil water", which entered the aquifer prior to large scale industrialisation. 

cheers Darrel


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## Graeme Edwards (16 Dec 2009)

dw1305 said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> Sam wrote
> 
> 
> ...



Very interesting Darrel. Do you work for the environment by any chance?

I dont think this is sams problem, as we all have the same situation with our own tanks in winter if we use tap water.

I personal think that light and nutrients arnt the problem.I Think, in Sames case with Sams set up, the Akadama isn't HC's friend. That and possible Co2. It should grow under these light, if a little leggy, but it should grow.

Same, whats your KH, PH and GH? Take the reading near the end of the light period too Sam, and get back to us.

Cheers.


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## Themuleous (16 Dec 2009)

Thanks for the thoughts Graeme, I did try Eco-complete before this lot of Akadama, and the HC did exactly the same thing.  Complete sod as the EC wasn't cheap! 

I cant take KH or GH readings as dont have th test kits, what are you thinking?  I could easily buy them.

Sam


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## plantbrain (17 Dec 2009)

Sam, I grow HC on wood, one sponge filter material, sand, mud etc.

It is really easy weed to grow. It's only tough once you use it below the water.But, with good CO2, and importantly also, lower light, say 40-50micrmoles for long term care, it does very well and CO2 demand is reduced. See about a light meter to borrow, then focus on getting it in that range. Next, tweak CO2 and focus there.

I have 180 cm worth of experience










ADA As will give you excellent results but I've seen good results with plain old sand, even my wood and sponge filters have become infested.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## dw1305 (17 Dec 2009)

*Re: Nitrates and HC emersed*

Hi all,
RE: Nitrates - I don't work for the EA, but I work in a small University lab. where we (used) to do quite a lot of work on "waste water" and bio-remediation. 

PlantBrain wrote


> Sam, I grow HC on wood, one sponge filter material, sand, mud etc.


It's definitely fine emersed, it turned up it toes in rapid time in my "no CO2, no fert." tanks,  but the bit I stuck on top of the "Hamburg Matten Filter" sponge did very well.

cheers Darrel


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## Graeme Edwards (17 Dec 2009)

Themuleous said:
			
		

> Thanks for the thoughts Graeme, I did try Eco-complete before this lot of Akadama, and the HC did exactly the same thing.  Complete sod as the EC wasn't cheap!
> 
> I cant take KH or GH readings as dont have th test kits, what are you thinking?  I could easily buy them.
> 
> Sam



If you have an accurate reading of KH and PH, then you know exactly what your Co2 is doing. Your drop checker may not be very accurate.... If the drop checker goes to yellow, then even if you PH keeps falling then it still stays yellow.
Test kits will give a better idea of what is going on.

Try floating some to Sam, see what that does. 

Take a sample to a shop and ask them to help you out. 

If you have silly low KH then this could be at the route of your problem.


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## dw1305 (18 Dec 2009)

Hi all,
Should have said I like the Checkerboard cichlid (_Dicrossus_) in the photo as well. Very smart fish.
cheers Darrel


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## plantbrain (18 Dec 2009)

dw1305 said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> Should have said I like the Checkerboard cichlid (_Dicrossus_) in the photo as well. Very smart fish.
> cheers Darrel



I got a dozen of them in there, they might eat the cherry shrimp, not quite sure yet. Babies for sure, but since the cherries bred like flies..... I still have a few.

I have a Zebra L046 pleco breeding tank with 100-200 cherries, so I toss them in here in hopes of getting a colony going. There are no other cichlids any longer, I had several groups of Apistos that did well, but took them to a client's tank.

The non CO2 ADA tank has HC growing on a moss mat emergently. The HC was removed from the 180 Gal, but attached to the emergent wood and has made a 10x10cm mat. 2 very different tanks and nutrient concentrations, but the HC weed still grows.

PITA if you ask me, not as bad as Gloss, but not much better either.
I have Gloss growing in my bonsai moss, been there for 2 years now.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## flygja (5 Jan 2010)

There is an "easy" way to check if CO2 is the problem. From what I know, HC thrives on Seachem Excel. Perhaps you can try and dose Excel according to the recommended dosage in addition to normal CO2 injection and see if it helps things out a bit?

If its any consolation, I can relate to your situation. I had Staurogyne which was so easy that it doubled its mass every month or two. Then suddenly, after about 9 months of growing in my tank, they started melting. Nothing (that I know of) changed in my tank, same EI dosage, same lights, same CO2 injection. Since then I've upped the CO2 and changed out 3 old light tubes and they're still melting. No idea why at all. Every other plant is thriving, including Anubias, ferns, mosses, stems. Baffled is what I am. And a bit frustrated, considering that my plans had Staurogyne as the main foreground plant!

Hang in there mate!


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## Josst (6 Jan 2010)

Sorry for seeming so ignorant but what is the actual name of hc?


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## Fred Dulley (6 Jan 2010)

hemianthus callitrichoides


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