# Dual Regulator system - one side losing pressure?



## Heavenly (5 May 2020)

Hi Everyone.
My first tank and I have set up a dual system which I'm having issues with.
Im running 2 x Oase600 Thermo's with 2 x Co2Art Pro SE Series regulators on 2KG extinguishers - all were brand new and running for 5 months now.. 
The regulators are connected to brand new Polyurethane pipe from CO2Art with inline ProSeries Checkvalves connected to Co2Art Ceramic diffusers.




 



 



 


Both regulators are running around 38psi however I have a serious issue I just cannot get to the bottom of and causing me major issues in tank due to constant fluctuating CO2 levels.



 
Every morning my bubble count on one side is not as it was the day before.
If I set the left hand side to 2 bps the right hand side every morning will only be 1 bps or even 1bps every 2 seconds..
At first I thought this may be leaks, so have extensively sprayed every single connection with fluid checking for bubbles and nothing. 
I then thought maybe its a cylinder issue so replaced both extinguishers with brand new clipped tops and it was still the same.
Next I thought maybe its the right hand regulator, so swopped the units over and next morning still the same, hopefully eliminating the regulator.
Next I spoke to Pete at Riverside aquatics and he sent me a brand new Ceramic diffuser which I fitted and still the same?
Its almost like everyday I open the needle valve a little more to ensure the right hand side is operating in equilibrium with the left and next days its back to being slow again.
So then I thought, maybe distance of Polyurethane pipe makes a difference, so I bought new, cut both sides equally and ensured every cut was done with a scalpel blade so not irregular and this has also made no difference.
I am in conversation with C02Art but replies are slow and im losing my mind.
I am wondering if 38psi is actually not enough to keep a constant back pressure from the ceramic diffuser to the bubble counter?
If I remove the pipe from the bubble counter, the bps shoots up.
Being my first system I just want to get an accurate drop everyday and currently although im pleased with plant growth, GSA has blighted my tank and until my C02 is absolutely level, I feel im fighting a war I can't win.
I just wonder if anyone has any suggestion or thoughts on this from experience?


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## Jayefc1 (5 May 2020)

Have you tried adjusting the working pressure instead of the needle valve maybe the one reg needs a little more pressure to push the co2 through than the other sounds to me like its xropping in pressure to slow the bubble rate


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## Zeus. (5 May 2020)

BPS is only an indication of the CO2 injection rate and an actual mount of CO2. Counting buubles gives no indication of stable CO2. 
I would advise you not to compare BPS on one day to another. 
The only way to see if your CO2 is stable is a pH profile - take pH from CO2 on till CO2 off every 30mins and light on time.
Best way to check CO2 concentration([CO2]) is a Drop Checker (DC) colour change 2-3 hours after lights on and only if pH is stable.


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## Heavenly (6 May 2020)

Hi Jay.
Yes regulator is fully open and that’s the max pressure it will give, And that’s slightly frustrating.
Hi Zeus, yes fully understand, but if this was my only regulator I’d never have enough everyday. ive done PH profiles over the last couple weeks when I have adjusted the bubble count everyday to what I know is the correct bps from both regulators but when one is constantly slowing it’s impossible to ensure the PH drops correctly and that’s my point, I want it accurate with a  PH drop. From this profile I’ve adjusted timing to come on slightly later now so I have a drop to 6.5-6.6 at lights on now, but holding it consistent if I don’t go in the cabinet every morning is impossible.





Is there any reason why 38PSI shouldn’t be enough?  If one side is identical to the other , is there anyway to make the regulator allow more pressure?
I just wonder if people think 12-14” of polyurethane pipe is too long as I can’t physically make it any shorter on the right hand side of the system..


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## Jayefc1 (6 May 2020)

It is weird the pressure shouldnt change that much from one reg the to the next have you tried it with out the check valve in the tube just wondering if it could be that faulty some how you might be better of with one reg and in line with twice the bubble count


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## Heavenly (6 May 2020)

I actually put the check valves in because it was suggested maybe slight water build up just after the bubble counter was more than the pressure could push away, so they were added for that reason.
I have to try things everyday for when 12pm comes.
I may today try that and just remove it and see what happens but it’s very frustrating as they are identical set up’s with identical lengths.
I’ve actually had the cylinder handles off over night to monitor pressure this morning, see if any leaks over night, but just checking they are both sitting on 40Psi, ready to kick in on solenoid at 12pm.
Are people running longer than 12” lengths of Pipe to the diffusers and find it ok? I know the ceramic diffuser needs a pressure or 30 psi to kick start pushing the Co2 through.


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## Jayefc1 (6 May 2020)

I have 3 tanks none as big as yours but all working on co2art regs and the new inline diffuser and no issues like you are having I dont have check valves in because the regs have them I know it's a good idea but just never done it I did have a issue with one of the regs that the working pressure wouldnt go below 60psi but aquarium gardens took it back and exchanged it I dont think the lenth of pipe would make any difference if it was in tank it would be a lot longer


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## Jayefc1 (6 May 2020)

I'm not 100% sure but I believe there is a little screw under the pressure controller that you can adjust to higher and lower the pressure


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## Heavenly (6 May 2020)

Hopefully this is the case and it can be adjusted.
There is only so much from A to B that can go wrong, and considering I’ve replaced it all, it’s very confusing what’s going on. I was really hoping when I switched the tanks and regulators around it was going to switch the issue to the other system, but it didn’t, so it does show the regulator must be fine, maybe one side for whatever reason just needs more pressure, but why I have no idea...


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## Zeus. (6 May 2020)

BTW very tidy/neat setup  and pH profile looks fine.

Is the pH fluctuating from from day to day ?

and what are these ? 




CO2 reactors ? you do have a kink in one pipe




That would increase the pressure in the water and affect the CO2 injection rate (BPS) if part of the return from the filter (which I think it is from your pic)

I would sort that pipe out first so kink free 

If the issue persists I would swap the filters over next, which will be easy with the ones you have, that will rule out any output pressure difference of the filters.

Then all thats left is to swap the diffusers over


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## Heavenly (6 May 2020)

Thanks, it’s my first planted tank and I had it built to size and dimensions to work with how I wanted the system to be and it’s been a great journey so far.
Ok they are 2 x Oase 11W Cleartronic UV clarifies, running closely in tandem for dwell time. I originally had it built around an EVO55 but found the temps went up from 23 degrees to 25degrees so I removed it and swopped for these. Do they work? I’m unsure but my water is always absolutely pristine in clarity ans they don’t appear to restrict flow by any means..





Yes that looked like a small kink and now amended by giving more slack with tubing but this is actually the other system that doesn’t have an issue...

Let me try a few things you have suggested also.

I think for me, if I were running an old system with maybe dated parts that may have clogged etc I would understand why this is happening a little more, but it’s actually the shortest route of pipework to the tank on this side yet the side having the issue.

you can see my independent spray bars working inside the tank, left and right, and the 2 filters feed independent sides so in theory the Co2 is being evenly distributed across the front, down the glass and is pulled back by outtake pipes with filters on at the bottom of the background so it’s a rip curl effect and watching the bubbles works well..
But having one side always losing Co2 ability although over all PH may not be affected if I keep adjusting, it certainly affects where it is in balance in the tank...


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## Heavenly (6 May 2020)

This is where I started





And where I am now, but suffering GSA badly which I’m putting down to irregular Co2 everyday as I have to keep readjusting and my Phophates are showing between 2-3.


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## Zeus. (6 May 2020)

Heavenly said:


> they don’t appear to restrict flow by any means..



But there will be some increase in resistance to flow so there will be an increase in pressure, plus the UV filters on the side where the issue is so most likely culprit IMO! Could they be bypassed for a short time (few days) to see if it makes a difference.

My duel stage reg allows me to adjust the working pressure well beyond 40PSI, I have one duel stage reg with a slitter going to twin solenoids/needle values (at 50PSI at time of pic)





as for BPS


feel free to count  hence I adjust inject rate by adjusting working PSI


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## Heavenly (6 May 2020)

That’s a lot of bubbles!
Ok just to clarify, the side with the longest pipework from filter system through the UV clarifiers to the spray bar is “not” the side with the problem. This side is all working fine “on the left”.
It’s the side “on the right” that has the issue, and the shortest pipework run to the right hand spray bar.
This issue is also only when it starts up.
People say give it time to build up back pressure but I can leave this all day and it doesn’t change.
If I adjust the needle valve the slightest bit I can get the bubble count correct and it will stay like it all day - until next morning when all kicks in again, and it’s back down to one bubble every 2 seconds.
Let me demonstrate.
Imagine night before both bubble counters were running at 1 bps, and next morning as soon as the solenoids kick in the left is running at 1bps, but the right is back down slow again... this is what I face every day, no matter how fast the bps the night before. Not sure how to upload video from phone as it only sees images..


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## Heavenly (6 May 2020)

Also thanks for all the replies and time, it’s also helping me understand if not fix short term...


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## Zeus. (6 May 2020)

Initial BPS is always higher than after the pressure has settled


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## Heavenly (6 May 2020)

Yes for sure.
This whole pressure issue has me thinking now though so appreciate all the advice.
The left hand side has 1 spraybar in tank which you can probably see from the picture of the tank planted.
The right hand side however “the issue side” has a double spraybar joined, so more area covered for flow and Co2 into the tank, but obviously less pressure coming out of the spraybar.
This was done as I had a deadspot in the centre of the tank being so deep, so extended the spraybar to double width.
I wonder if this has lowered the overall pressure affecting the back pressure?
I’m Tempted to see what happens at 12pm when the solenoids kick in, if the right hand side is slow again, remove one of the double length spray bars and change to single and cap the end, so it’s matches the other side. See if this alone kick starts the bubble counter to the correct bps.


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## Heavenly (6 May 2020)

Ok I’ve amended the spray bar to one section not 2 after Co2 came on and it was just the same, very slow. I would have hoped that with this only having the same length as the other side it would have kicked the bubble counter to get to its normal rate as it’s been 30 minutes now and no change.
The good side is bubbling away as it was last night


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## Nick72 (6 May 2020)

I'm also using a C02 Arts regulator.

My C02 line to the inline diffuser runs around 20 inches.

I have the working pressure set to 30 psi.

I had trouble for the first few days, then I removed the the check valve I had installed in the C02 line.  This is fine because the bubble counter is also a check valve.

Yes, every morning my C02 line is full of water, but it's no issue and clears quickly.

I've been trouble free for the last 10 months, and only touch the needle valve once in a blue moon, or when changing gas cylinders.

I still suspect your check valve.


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## Heavenly (6 May 2020)

Ok tonight when Co2 goes off I’ll take the check valve off and connect pipe direct, and see what happens first thing...
Appreciate all the advice guys so far...


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## Nick72 (6 May 2020)

Only other thing I noticed is that you do have quite a lot of thread showing on the bottom side of your right hand inline diffuser.

Your left hand one looks normal.

Here's mine for comparison:




 

Although to be fair, I can't see why that would make a difference.


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## Tim Harrison (6 May 2020)

Sounds like it might be the atomiser. I've had a similar problem in the past. The ceramic gets gunged up and acts as a barrier.
The manufacturing process can cause a similar problem as well.

Atomizers can generally be a bit hit and miss as to whether you get a good one or a dud. I've given up with UpAqua atomizers for instance. I've had 2 that wouldn't work straight out of the box and several that have eventually stopped working properly.

Maybe try soaking the ceramic cylinder in neat limescale bleach or Steradent for a couple of hours. If that doesn't work try soaking overnight. That usually clears any blockage.
Also make sure the atomiser body and "gas in" nipple are tightened up properly so CO2 can not bypass the ceramic cylinder or leak out.


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## Heavenly (6 May 2020)

Thanks Tim.
Tim I suspected this from the start, so this is actually a brand new 16/22mm inline ceramic diffuser, and I fitted it last week to eliminate exactly this thought process. Regarding the screw depth on the inline diffuser, I have noticed this but it’s absolutely correct and tightened. I did actually have the old one jubilee clipped to see if that was also an issue.
I wish it were an engine with moving parts as it would be so easy.
I shall try swopping Oase600’s over in the coming days and seeing if that makes a difference, but I wouldn’t say I’m taxing this system at all with only a foot of Polyurethane pipe work and also having pressure up at nearly 40 psi, maybe dropping to 38 when it’s actually kicked in...


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## Nick72 (6 May 2020)

We're back to the check valve then.

I hope removing it helps.


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## jaypeecee (6 May 2020)

Tim Harrison said:


> Sounds like it might be the atomiser. I've had a similar problem in the past. The ceramic gets gunged up and acts as a barrier.
> The manufacturing process can cause a similar problem as well.
> 
> Atomizers can generally be a bit hit and miss as to whether you get a good one or a dud. I've given up with UpAqua atomizers for instance. I've had 2 that wouldn't work straight out of the box and several that have eventually stopped working properly.
> ...



Hi Folks,

I prefer to use vinegar. The deposit on the atomizer is likely to be calcium carbonate (chalk) so should respond to an acidic solution - hence my choice of vinegar. The atomizer that I use is the one that carries the same name as an anti-tank rocket launcher! 

JPC


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## Heavenly (7 May 2020)

Ok morning update.
Last night I took the check valve off the right hand side with the issue and left it on the left hand side which is fine. Both polyurethane pipes are equal lengths to both diffusers.
The good left hand side when kicked in performed as it should from the night before, but sadly the right hand side which is now just routed direct from bubble counter to the diffuser, once again slow. Removing the check valve made no difference.
So I’d like to think this only leaves me with the ceramic diffuser which new when I first installed it, and was also replaced last week with a brand new one, so it has had 2 new units fitted...
I’ve now dismantled the original unit and taken the ceramic tube out and placed in bleach...
I will try and fit this back in tomorrow to try and eliminate this also.
Really scratching my head here. 
CO2Art came back last night and asked me to remove check valve and also to try another ceramic membrane to see if it’s clogged.
I would be disappointed if so as I’ve spent nearly £80 on new parts to no avail so far...


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## Heavenly (7 May 2020)

Another update.
I’ve managed to get the inline diffuser stripped down and bleached and clean ready for reinstallation.
I’ve meticulously reassembled this and ensured everything is absolutely leak proof, and waited till 12pm for CO2 to click in as it should.
Sadly at 12pm still the same. Left side fine, the issue side with freshly cleaned ceramic diffuser still only small bubble count.
A little unsure where to go from here...
I will try and Zeus mentioned and swop the whole filters around just to eliminate this.


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## Jayefc1 (7 May 2020)

I would now put the right side with the slow reg on to the left side if tomorrow the left side has a dropped bubble count you know it's the regulator


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## Heavenly (7 May 2020)

Hey Jay, that was actually the first thing I did, swopped the extinguishers with regulators attached around so the right hand side that was slow is now on the left. And the right hand side still stayed slow.
I’ve pretty much done everything now, I’ve swopped the whole Oase unite over now to see what happens at CO2 on tomorrow.
Then I think I may try just using the smallest length of polyurethane pipe to the diffuser in the bad side, see if it makes any difference. I’m struggling with options now...


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## Jayefc1 (7 May 2020)

Well swapping things ove and nothing changing is at least ruling out equipment so like you say filter is the next step


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## jolt100 (8 May 2020)

Hi. Have you tried switching the diffusers? 
If you are unable to increase the working pressure on the regulator then I would suspect you do have a leak.  I had a similar problem when I was using the UP inline atomisers which were phone to cracks. 
I would try taking the ptfe tape off the co2 nipple and testing by putting the diffuser under water covering the ends with your fingers to create a bit of pressure. With co2 on you should see the bubbles inside the diffuser but any leaks from the end seals or co2 nipple will be more obvious than a slow leak with soap solution. 
The length of pipe from regulator to diffuser isn't an issue,  I have one running 10 feet in my fishhouse without any issues. 
Cheers 
John


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## Heavenly (8 May 2020)

Hi John.
So here’s the thing.
CO2Art stayed they are capped at 40psi so I can’t up the pressure anymore. Do we know it the CO2Art pro series although double the cost can go higher than 40 psi?
This is the second brand new diffuser fitted as I presumed the first was the issue so ordered a new one which was delivered and fitted. I’ve since taken it back off and refitted ensuring as best possible I have no leaks and even when switching the whole fire extinguisher with regulator over , it’s still the right hand side which is slow on start up. I’ve even check it again this morning to no avail. The thing is, could this be more then what I’m seeing.? If a different brand new 2KG extinguisher and regulator/bubble counter still have slow start up, it can’t be this as it works on the other side of the tank.
The diffusers are brand new, as is the pipework and I’ve now removed the check valves.
So this only leaves me with, what can possibly stop the bubble counter from spurting Into life at let’s say 2bps every day like the other side?
If I say “F@@@ it, and just open the needle valve to an impossible bubble rate per second, like blasting out last thing at night just as Co2 is going off, the next morning it’s still starting at only 0.5 bubble per second. I’m struggling to understand how continually opening the valve everyday doesn’t just blast the Co2 down the tube every morning? The gap must be getting bigger every day?
I’m just trying to understand how this back pressure works? CO2Art have responded have I changed the bubble counters over? But if I’ve switched  the whole regulator over, I don’t think that’s going to matter...
Going to attempt to attach extended pipework now to see if I have enough length to dunk pipework and diffuser in water


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## Heavenly (8 May 2020)

Ok managed to get the whole diffuser under water and no leaks I can see. Certainly no bubbles appearing from any joins. I’m 100% convinced this is not a leak from the diffuser section


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## Heavenly (8 May 2020)

Just want to say thanks for everyone’s input also.
Great to see a forum that isn’t bitchy, and everyone with a genuine passion for their hobby just wants to try and help people.
During this crisis, although this issue is driving me insane, this hobby is actually keeping me sane!


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## Jayefc1 (8 May 2020)

There not capped at 40 mine goes to at least 60psi if I turn the pressure up


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## Heavenly (8 May 2020)

Ok this was the reply from Karol at Co2Art

“Both regulators are capped to 40PSI so the settings are absolutely right.”

mine is absolutely on the max adjustment on the front, and both regulators return the same, just around 38-40 psi.
How have you managed to get yours so high? Is there an adjustment?


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## Jayefc1 (8 May 2020)

Just turn the black knob on the front till the pressure rises it would probs go higher but I run it at just above 40psi and that works on all 3 of my co2art regs


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## Zeus. (8 May 2020)

Jayefc1 said:


> Just turn the black knob on the front till the pressure rises it would probs go higher but I run it at just above 40psi and that works on all 3 of my co2art regs







130PSI is working pressure limit on my pro series


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## Heavenly (8 May 2020)

Jay mine are fully open on both and won’t rise above 40 psi.
It’s a little frustrating because there is a chance if I could open this up to say 45psi it could totally cure this issue.
Karol at CO2Art states both regulators they sell are capped at 40 
I think you just must be lucky as my Co2 cylinders are also both brand new as I have 6.


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## Jayefc1 (8 May 2020)

I cant dispute what karol says
I.just know all of mine go above that where did you get yours from


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## Jayefc1 (8 May 2020)

Here is a pic of working pressure on one of the others needle valve barely open bubbles at about 3bps note the black knob placement 


if I turn the lnob clock wise the pressure goes up and so will the bubble rate 


And can fo this on all 3 regs


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## Heavenly (8 May 2020)

Hey direct from CO2Art.
I’ve emailed him asking would it be worth changing to the pro series if I have more control.
Unless I get Co2 sorted and accurate every day, all my other issues are never going to be sorted.
I’ve had it 6 months and been battling various issues, GSA etc and only realised in the last month why I’ve had so many fluctuating issues in tank.


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## Jayefc1 (8 May 2020)

I know there is a Alan key screw on the bottom of the regs I've never had to adjust it but I think it might change the working pressure of the reg


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## Heavenly (8 May 2020)

I’m hoping this is an option to adjust it...


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## Jayefc1 (8 May 2020)

Have you looked at it


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## Jayefc1 (8 May 2020)

The other option I would advice is to ring aquarium gardens and speak to Dave or Steve they are proper experts and will help even if you didnt buy from them


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## Heavenly (8 May 2020)

Spent many weekends back and forth to them, probably more than 20hrs driving as we bought everything from them apart from the regulators, all my Oase gear, the Twinstar etc and loads of plants.
Did the Aquascape class with Philippe also, so love their set up. May try and call them Monday and see if they can offer anything for me...
I’ve not looked at the Allen key adjustment, I’ll await Karol to come back and see what he recommends next...


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## Jayefc1 (8 May 2020)

I was at the phillipe work shop too mate I was the one in the blue tshirt helping fetch and carry stuff stood at the back lol


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## X3NiTH (8 May 2020)

I think you’ve determined that everything is working except for one particular housing as you’ve replaced the internal ceramic diffuser for a separate one. Have you tried wrapping the ends of the ceramic in PTFE tape to create a tighter seal inside the problem atomiser housing. Have you measured the time it takes both atomisers to clear themselves of water at gas on, if the problem unit takes longer to push out the water there may be a defect inside that allows water to backflow into the device when it’s in a low pressure state and it’s not able to seal itself when the gas pressure rises and the water under pressure in the pipes is able to sneak back in round the side somewhere.


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## Heavenly (8 May 2020)

Thanks for the reply.
Anything is worth trying so will give it a go tomorrow.
What’s so frustrating is the fact this is like a rattle at cold start up in a car. Once you have started it and the engines hot, you need to wait until the next morning to try something new again.
I will give this a go, anything is worth it as I’m simply trying to solve a simple problem that’s from A to B, but I just can’t see the issue.
To add this is the second brand new diffuser and housing , so it would be really unlucky to have 2 that don’t work. But I’ll try anything!
The left side absolutely clears quicker, I’ve watched it, but I’ve always determined this is because it’s actually working off the correct 2 bubbles per seconds at CO2 on, so it’s pushing more up the tube quickly, where as the right hand side clears slowly because it’s only working off the issue of 0.5 bubble per second and stays like it.
CO2 is on at 12pm tomorrow, so I’ll strip it down again and seal the end of the ceramic tube carefully with PTFE and see what happens...
When the Co2 kicks in the left side instantly starts bubbling away at 2 bps and starts Clearing the pipe or any water and then the diffuser, it’s like it instantly has the pressure from the CO2 cylinder to drive the CO2 up the tube.
The right hand side no matter where I set the needle valve night before even spinning it open a whole turn still feels like it has no instant pressure to get the bubble rate going, but having swopped cylinders round with the whole assembly attached it just can’t be the cylinder issue.
I’m so confused...


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## Jayefc1 (12 May 2020)

Have you had any luck over the weekend mate


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## Heavenly (12 May 2020)

Hey so yes.
Although I’ve not had a change in circumstance with the bps, CO2Art have been excellent and are making me another regulator with slightly increased pressure to 50psi and a less restrictive bubble counter for pressure to see how I get on. I personally think this will do it... they are mailing it to me this week and I can swop them over and see how I get on..
Until I get absolute CO2 flow I feel all my other issues like GSA can’t even be started to be looked at as my whole system could be reacting to ever changing Co2 levels...


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## Nick72 (12 May 2020)

🤞 that the new regulator fixes the issue.


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## Jayefc1 (12 May 2020)

Really hope it help I did read somewhere on here its quiet esay to make the pressure change it's just a case of lengthening the spring apparently


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## Heavenly (16 May 2020)

So just an update.
CO2Art sent me a new regulator with working pressure of 50psi.
I changed my one over to it Thursday night and EUREKA, Friday morning and today just to be sure, perfect bps matching the other side.
It’s set at just over 40psi and as soon as the solenoid kicks in, it starts instantly at the correct setting from the night before.
I’m so relieved!
Just like to thank everyone who helped me on this thread as I’ve gained good knowledge and it had given me the push to get CO2Art to help me.
I can finally look at getting the tank in equilibrium.


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## X3NiTH (16 May 2020)

That’s good you finally managed to get that sorted!


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## Jayefc1 (16 May 2020)

Wow really happy it's all sorted mate and very good of co2art to help you out knew we would get there in the end there is nothing a good community cant over come


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## Zeus. (16 May 2020)

Glad to have it sorted


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