# Blue Green Algae linked to low/no co2?



## Garuf (25 Apr 2008)

Hello, I'm sure some of you aware I recently set up a 15 gallon tank with a sand foreground, thread can be viewed here. http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1311&start=70 
So yestreday I ran out of co2, to compensate I had the lights come on late and go off early until I get some more. 
Despite cutting down the light I did nothing else, this evening when I get home from college this greats me. 





Worst affected are the mosses, hairgrass and the sand path/foreground, it is taking 2 distinct forms long black slimey tufts and then a green/blue film.    
I fully expected to get BBA and for which I was prepared but what I actually have is a thick layer of BGA which has grown over night seemingly. 
This to me makes no sense since I know BGA is linked to low KNO3 levels. 
Worth considering is that I recently added a curtain which blocked off direct sunlight from hitting the tank, but again why would the bacteria manifest itself after the window is blocked, another thing that to me just doesn't add up. 
What do I do to prevent this and how do I go about rectifying matters once I have co2 again?


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## ceg4048 (25 Apr 2008)

Gareth,
          I checked the thread but couldn't find your dosing schedule. Low nitrates and/or flow is the typical culprit as you say but remember that ammonia "microburst" will be a catalyst. A CO2 failure could have caused NH4 ejection to help trigger the BGA if your were already marginal in that direction. That's why poor tank maintenance is often another cause. You can usually get away with fooling around with CO2 for a week or so before BBA will raise it's ugly head so this sort of indicates that it's something you have been doing (or not doing) for more than just a day or two.

Cheers,


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## Garuf (25 Apr 2008)

Sorry Ceg I meant to post dosing, It's roughly double dose Ei, I basically just bung in an amount of everything that looks right and have done, I've no deficiencies so I'm working on the assumption it's working fine.
I agree there would be something wrong before hand but I'm cleaning the tank while doing a 9gallon water change every weekend and I clean the filter once a week.
The theory of low flow would be understandable though despite having an eheim 2224 on there I've always found it to be inadequate in the flow department. I do have a spray bar I could trial out if needs be, I've also a PM lily on the way to replace the Cal Aqua one's I'm currently using.


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## ceg4048 (25 Apr 2008)

Yeah, if it's attacking the high density plants that could indicate a flow problem. Don't know what your work/school schedule is like but a water change frequency upgrade will help. Elbow grease is called for here, otherwise it's going to have to be blackout city. Are you sure it's BGA only and not hair algae as well?

Cheers,


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## Garuf (25 Apr 2008)

No you're right I've a case of hair/thread algae too, I hadn't noticed until now. 
I don't mind running a black out but that's only going to postpone matters until I get to the root cause, which currently I suspect is flow.


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## Garuf (25 Apr 2008)

just to note, the thread/hair only effects the bolbitis and anubias there's also a small amount on the diffuser its self.


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## ceg4048 (25 Apr 2008)

Well, I hate to depress you, but the hair is a strong indication that your CO2 (or it's delivery) was marginal to begin with, even when it was working.   If you fix the flow you might fix both but you will need to at least think about upping the bubble rate.

Cheers,


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## Garuf (25 Apr 2008)

Now that would make sense, my drop checker was struggling to get green and I put this down to simply being that the bottle was running low, thanks for proving I was correct, regarding the co2, I'll up it significantly to get the desired effect. 
But the algae, will that not just remain?


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## ceg4048 (26 Apr 2008)

You will have to remove it, no way around that. The difference is that when the plant becomes healthier and not CO2 limited this will stop the formation of new hair strands. Once algae changes from the spore to the vegetative mode there is nothing you can do but to physically remove it. Excel/Easycarbo will damage it. Water changes will remove NH4 and the spores as well. This might take a few weeks to get the leaf healthy.

Cheers,


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## Garuf (27 Apr 2008)

I'll do the best I can, I'll run a black out to kill the BGA and then concentrate on the hair algae, remove, water change, excel.
Should have a new co2 bottle tomorrow, what other considerations should I have in getting everything back on track?


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## ceg4048 (28 Apr 2008)

That's all I can think of mate. Just from reflex action I have a tendency to lower the light during the battle but since you will do the blackout that's moot. Give us an update after a few days and we can troubleshoot further.

Cheers,


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## beeky (1 May 2008)

Just come across this thread and to me the algae doesn't look "slimy" enough for BGA. Does it smell?


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## Garuf (1 May 2008)

It's undoubtedly Blue-Green, the stuff stinks and its in a form I've seen before. It's only tufted where it grows over hair algae.


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## Garuf (6 Jun 2008)

The situation has only gotten worse since upping co2, I've been doing 50% water changes twice a week, keeping my dosing high and running the drop checker as yellow as I can without fish gasping. 
The plants have all taken off but so has the algae despite removal everyday.

Pictures to come soon.


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## Garuf (6 Jun 2008)




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## ceg4048 (6 Jun 2008)

Ouch.   Gareth, if you're already dosing high nitrates then the only thing left is flow/distribution. Have you tried mounting the spraybar on the back wall or the right wall? You may have to do another 3 day blackout first. Shut down the CO2 but dose at night while keeping the tank completely covered.

Cheers mate,


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## Garuf (6 Jun 2008)

I did, but It wasn't as good when I have it on the side pane, I'll give it a move and see if it makes any difference. 
I 'll do a 3 day black out and see where that gets me. In the mean time what's caused the hair algae to take of so much after injecting more co2? Surely that should signal a recession of it?


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## ceg4048 (6 Jun 2008)

What is the timing of the gas? You may need to turn it on much earlier. I'm not quite sure what flow rate you have but you may want to add another bar to the one you have to get a better spread. If you have a powerhead you may want to mount it so that it is pointing across that are just to troubleshoot for a while. That will tell you if it is a flow problem or not.

I recall you said you were dosing double EI but could you repeat exactly how many teaspoons of what?

Cheers,


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## Garuf (6 Jun 2008)

The Co2 comes on an hour before the lights and goes off an hour before them as per current recommendations.

The filter is an eheim 2224, which gives a theoretical 700lph. The spray bar gives little more than a trickle when in long format across the back of the tank and it also fails to "catch" any of the co2 mist like when on the side walls. 

I'm dosing 1headed teaspoon of kno3 and half a teaspoon of mgso4 every other day.


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## JamesC (6 Jun 2008)

The hair algae you have looks like rhizoclonium. See my algae guide to see some photo's for ID - http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm. Having both BGA and rhizoclonium suggests a dirty tank or uneaten food. Poor circulation is also another factor. 3-4 day blackouts work very well against BGA and if done correctly are 100% effective.

James


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## Garuf (6 Jun 2008)

BBA, GSA, BGA and Rhizo are the algae's I have, when you say clean the tank I don't see how I can get it any cleaner, I clean it as best I can without stripping the thing down.  :?


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## JamesC (6 Jun 2008)

Just looks like in some of the photo's there is some muck mixed in with the algae. BBA always suggests low/poor circulation of CO2.

James


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## Garuf (6 Jun 2008)

Then it's odd that the bba has formed just underneath the diffuser in line with where bubbles flow...
I'll do what I can to get rid of what muck and mulm I can, can't hurt to do another water change.


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## JamesC (6 Jun 2008)

Garuf said:
			
		

> Then it's odd that the bba has formed just underneath the diffuser in line with where bubbles flow...



Ha ha, that has always confused me. You're not the only one to get BBA where there is water flow rich in CO2. Do you know the KH of your tank water?

James


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## Garuf (6 Jun 2008)

Not a clue, I'm seven trent water board and guessing by the limescale in my kettle, quiet high. I didn't bother buying a kh test kit after I only used my nitrate nitrite and ammonia test's twice.


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## JamesC (6 Jun 2008)

People disagree with me, and they may be right, but I've noticed a trend with this type of BBA appearing in CO2 rich water flow and having a high KH. Not everyone gets it with high KH so it's not directly to blame. 

James


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## Garuf (6 Jun 2008)

http://www.stwater.co.uk/server.php?pos ... itySubmit=


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## Garuf (15 Jul 2008)

Everything was fine for ages, Saturday I did a water change and tried to clean out as much mank as I could and well you better believe it, a layer of bga over everything all over again in a matter of days.
I'm going to do a black out, Ceg you recommend dosing during the black out, would this mean kno3 one day trace the next for the whole 4 days or just kno3 every day?
 Also, I'm dosing following the tutorial on dosing with dry ferts (except I'm using the mixtures) would it be worth double dosing for the time being or just sticking to what I'm already dosing?
Also, I've got some BBA and rhizo (?) still in my moss which I never managed to get rid of, would it be worth while dosing easycarbo during the blackout?


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## ceg4048 (15 Jul 2008)

Yes I would continue everything except CO2 during the blackout, including Easycarbo. The trick is to avoid getting any light into the tank while you do this so it would be better to do all the dosing at night making sure there are no lights or reflections anywhere. You shouldn't need to change the rhythm of the dosing, just follow the same routine. Do a max water change just before and after the blackout.

Cheers,

Edit: There must be something wrong with your dosing or flow. GSA doesn't just show up widescale unless there is a PO4 shortage. Neither does BBA. Could your powders be mixed up or could you have massively miscalculated? This is very strange.


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## Garuf (15 Jul 2008)

I really don't know, the flow has always seemed low but every variation of theme to improve it does nothing. 
I'm dosing MGSO4, KNO3 and KSO4 
My recipe is 
1teaspoon of KSO4* (this is what AE sent me when I ordered KH2PO4)
2 1/2  teaspoons of KNO3
6 teaspoons of MGSO4

All teaspoons are heaped and well on the generous side. I then add this to water and dose accordingly every other day.
*typo


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## Garuf (15 Jul 2008)

And I only get bba where the water is flowing fast and CO2 rich...


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## ceg4048 (15 Jul 2008)

Garuf said:
			
		

> I really don't know, the flow has always seemed low but every variation of theme to improve it does nothing.
> I'm dosing MGSO4, KNO3 and KSO4
> My recipe is
> 1teaspoon of KSO4* (this is what AE sent me when I ordered KH2PO4)
> ...


 OK Gareth, I'm confused. You ordered phosphate salt, which is a critical requirement and the vendor sends you sulfate salt, of which you need very little...and you continue to use the sulfate in lieu of getting the order corrected to phosphate? There is no way on Gods green earth that K2SO4 can make up for a PO4 shortage. It's not even remotely possible. Furthermore, since you are already dosing KNO3 you have all the K you'll ever need. In this context the K2SO4 is completely useless. Am I missing something?  

Have you tried adding a powerhead, or even a second filter? We might have already been over this but you need more flow. If you cannot have the leaves swaying by mounting the spraybar on the back wall then you need more flow regardless of the rating.

Cheers,


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## Garuf (16 Jul 2008)

I don't understand the chemical symbols I just assumed that it must be the right stuff... 

I get the leaves moving... all through the tank, only when its on the side wall though on the back wall the water comes out as little more than a trickle.


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## Garuf (16 Jul 2008)

1 ea.  	Magnesium Sulphate - 1000g  	Â£12.99
1 ea. 	Mono Potassium Phosphate - 1000g 	Â£12.99
1 ea. 	Potassium Nitrate - 1000g 	Â£12.99
There's what I ordered, I assume I'd got the wrong stuff or did AE really send out the wrong stuff?


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## ceg4048 (16 Jul 2008)

Gosh, I have no idea. AE are pretty good at labeling the powders though. What does it say on the labels of the plastic bags that you received?

Cheers,


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## Garuf (16 Jul 2008)

It says on the bags KNO3 KSO4 and MGSO4. because they're all sulphates instead of a phosphate surely that means I have the wrong one?


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## ceg4048 (16 Jul 2008)

Surely mate.  Ditch the K sulfate as quickly as you can and get some KH2PO4. You'll see some improvement, no doubt...

Cheers,


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## Garuf (16 Jul 2008)

I spoke to Richard over at AE and he's sent out the right chemicals, I can't wait to get it all on track again. If only I'd have known. Thanks Ceg. I'm guessing this means I'll have to run a second black out to re-up the kh2PO4 levels?


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## ceg4048 (16 Jul 2008)

Yeah, tedious, I know but might be the easiest thing in the long run...

Cheers,


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## Garuf (16 Jul 2008)

Nah, that's fine. I'll uncover it tomorrow that'll have been a 2 day black out, then I'll run the tank as normal for 2 days then do a 4 day black out, the 2 days back up and running should give the plants some extra energy to last through the dark as I've known black outs to wipe out hairgrass and hygropholia before.


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## Ray (16 Jul 2008)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> There must be something wrong with your dosing or flow. GSA doesn't just show up widescale unless there is a PO4 shortage. Neither does BBA. Could your powders be mixed up or could you have massively miscalculated? This is very strange.


Good spot Clive, it surely was PO4...  I've been following this for weeks thinking "this is so strange, Garuf has the WORST luck - he always has algae problems!".  But there was, of course, a logical explanation...


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## Garuf (16 Jul 2008)

Thanks, Ray. Lets just hope this is the last of them hey guys.


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## Garuf (1 Sep 2008)

Blue green banished, clado back... along with something that looks like really long but non branching clado. 
I've upped co2, and will be continuing to double dose EI. Is there anything else I need to cover?


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## ceg4048 (1 Sep 2008)

Good golly Miss Molly   If you're doing 2X EI and are driving the dropchecker into the yellow you ought never to see Clado. This really sounds like a flow problem. It's been a while so could you restate your dosing procedure? How did you prepare the solutions and how many ml are you adding - and how many times per week? Have you added a powerhead? What is the water change schedule?

Cheers,


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## Garuf (1 Sep 2008)

Sure, Yeah I added a 400lph powerhead but it shook its self apart (the shaft shattered). My drop checker is bright yellow all day and I am dosing following your tutorial. Except that I rounded all of the doses up where they where halves also I added an extra tea spoon of kso4. I then dose 100ml every other day, 3 times a week, there's then a 2 day "rest" and then a water change of around 50%. When I carry out a water change I waft my hand through the plants so that everything that has settled is kicked up into the water, I then siphon it out before it settles again.


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## a1Matt (1 Sep 2008)

Garuf said:
			
		

> When I carry out a water change I waft my hand through the plants so that everything that has settled is kicked up into the water, I then siphon it out before it settles again.



Does a lot of settled debris come out when you do this?
If so then IMHO that could be a sign of too low a flow in the tank.  Thats just my two penneth, I wouldn't consider myself an expert.


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## Garuf (4 Sep 2008)

Yeah, loads. I think you've hit the nail. Damn my financial insecurity, I'd have bought a tetratec ex1200 by now. 
On the algae front, It's been a week since I double dosed and the algae has shown no signs of subsiding nor any sign of advance so I'm picking at it every day and keeping dosing high. 
I'll be keeping my eye out for a way of boosting flow in the meantime. 
Unfortunately it looks like I can't take my tanks with me to uni so this could be the end of my planted tank hobby for the time being.


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