# Wipe Out



## hotweldfire

A cautionary tale for y'all. Total loss in main tank although there are three blue pearls huddled together in the back corner fanning their legs like mad and I've pulled out one crystal that isn't dead but is preferring to lie on its side. All others including crystals up to ss grades and taiwan hybrids gone. Even amanos.

Def lost some snow bees and sakuras from nano. Caught the problem there earlier so a water change may have saved some. We'll see.

The cause? Well, I put some new plants in last night. If it was them then almost certainly copper poisoning as all fish fine. Despite plants soaking all day yesterday. I'm not saying it was them (as that might be libellous) but they went in to both tanks and nothing else was changed or was added.

£300-400 worth of livestock I reckon. Not to mention the potential breeding value. Taiwan hybrids after all. 

The moral is you can't prep plants enough.

Will update later after communicating with the supplier. Here are some horror pics in the meantime.


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## Matt Warner

That's such a shame mate I bet you are really upset, I know I would be. I just wondered how did new plants release copper into the tank? Were they in a tank which had a high copper content or something?


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## hotweldfire

Mate, I'm not uspet. I'm absolutely fuming.

A lot of suppliers use treatments containing copper on their plants as the copper kills pest snails. I know this supplier uses a bath before sending the plants out. Don't know what's in it, never thought they'd use copper, but whatever it is has to be pretty toxic for it to have this effect.

I assumed a three hour soak in carbonated water followed by two hours in prime followed by one hour in ro would remove everything but clearly not. I should have run them under flowing tap for an hour like I usually do.


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## hinch

thats worrying you prep your plants 1000x more than I do I normally just rince in tap water then stick in

considering I stick them in with some rather expensive fish a wipe out could be expensive   can you pm me the supplier so I can avoid?


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## Matt Warner

Yeah if ou could pm me the supplier too that would be good.


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## dw1305

Hi all,
Not very nice, does sound like it might be copper poisoning, or possibly a synthetic pyrethroid insecticide like permethrin, these pesticides would be toxic at very low values (possibly even ppb). 

I'd definitely take any foam/rock wool off before putting the plants in the tank, as that is the most likely reservoir for any pollution. 

I think Prime contains EDTA, but that would be the only other thing I could think of to do (other than the things you have done), and this is add a 24 hour soak in a dilute NaEDTA solution. Sodium (Na) is the least tightly bound metal and copper (Cu) would definitely displace it binding any copper ions as CuEDTA (as long as there weren't iron ions (Fe3+) in solution as well)

An organic chelator (like peat or Indian Almond leaves) might do as DOC (dissolved organic carbon) chelates heavy metals as well, but ligand formation is quite slow so you would need to soak for at least 24 hours.

cheers Darrel


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## BigTom

Feel for you dude, I've had this happen to me twice after adding plants imported from the far east. Took a month of running every chelating and absorbing agent I could find to get the tank shrimp safe again.

Darrel's advice sounds very good though, I'd run with that.


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## ghostsword

I had something like this happen with me, but only with cherries.

Even if one buys from tropica be extra careful if the retailer has a mix of plants on their holding tank.

The shop I go to in london has shrimp on the plant holding tanks, proof that the plants are safe.

It is a true tragedy mate.


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## hotweldfire

BigTom said:
			
		

> Feel for you dude, I've had this happen to me twice after adding plants imported from the far east. Took a month of running every chelating and absorbing agent I could find to get the tank shrimp safe again.
> 
> Darrel's advice sounds very good though, I'd run with that.



Thank you mate. Is hard to describe how depressing it is for this to happen. Have built this collection of shrimps over a period of a year and was about to develop into a very high quality colony. For it to be wiped out by someone else's carelessness is pretty devastating. Am unlikely to be able to afford all these high grade shrimp again.



			
				dw1305 said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> Not very nice, does sound like it might be copper poisoning, or possibly a synthetic pyrethroid insecticide like permethrin, these pesticides would be toxic at very low values (possibly even ppb).
> 
> I'd definitely take any foam/rock wool off before putting the plants in the tank, as that is the most likely reservoir for any pollution.
> 
> I think Prime contains EDTA, but that would be the only other thing I could think of to do (other than the things you have done), and this is add a 24 hour soak in a dilute NaEDTA solution. Sodium (Na) is the least tightly bound metal and copper (Cu) would definitely displace it binding any copper ions as CuEDTA (as long as there weren't iron ions (Fe3+) in solution as well)
> 
> An organic chelator (like peat or Indian Almond leaves) might do as DOC (dissolved organic carbon) chelates heavy metals as well, but ligand formation is quite slow so you would need to soak for at least 24 hours.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Darrel, as ever thanks for the advice. However, would you mind breaking it down for me a bit? What specifically would I need to do other than chucking some Prime into the tank? There's always some iron in there as a result of ferts.


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## Emyr

Where did you purchase these plants from? The main brands such as tropica and aquaflur are safe from this sort of thing I assume? I have never seen anything or heard of this happen to anyone before. Hugely infuriating.


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## foxfish

That is terrible news - I feel for you man.


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## dw1305

Hi all,


> What specifically would I need to do other than chucking some Prime into the tank? There's always some iron in there as a result of ferts.


 I'd try and treat the plants before they went into the tank. I think if you take the weight and foam off, there isn't much that can retain any pollutants. I'd then soak plants in a separate container of  water containing the EDTA/Indian Almond leaves for at least 24 hours. I'd use either RO, or a sparkling bottled mineral water with out any iron in it. If they were mosses I might leave them in a bit longer. You won't need much NaEDTA, 15ppm would be more than enough (that would treat 5 ppm Cu).

cheers Darrel


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## hinch

out of interest where would you get sodium edta from in the UK?


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## Alastair

Gutted mate. I'm sorry to hear this m I think I know which supplier you got from and believe your not the first to suffer this. I stick to just buying from TGM and ae now. Less risk as they have there plants in their own grow tanks. 
Sorry for your losses mate I know it doesn't help and can't replace what's gone. I believe the supplier should be held responsible and compensate your losses.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## AverageWhiteBloke

I'm feeling your pain, I have lost V Expensive Discus I couldn't afford but always wanted by a kid putting something in my tank it's not nice at all.

I know very little about the chemicals you mention but does aqua safe or similar products not remove metals from water and have you tried filtering with carbon to remove nasties from the shrimp tank? possibly clutching at straws just trying to help


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## basil

Sorry to hear this. Been through the same myself although on a much smaller scale. Bought some plants off ebay and within 5 mins of going into the tank the shrimp started to keel over.

I managed to save a few from what was a decent colony of breeding snowballs, but even the survivors were not the same after. They stopped breeding and died off one by one over the following weeks.

Bummer, but very hard to hold supplier accountable unless they guarantee to be shrimp safe plants with no ferts or pesticides.


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## Dincho

I'm gutted for you, genuinely! I once had my 2 yr old daughter pour perfume in my high grade CRS tank, i lost about 200 of them! People say toothache is the worst pain in the world, i disagree, losing shrimp is worse!


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## zvirus

Hi,

 Sorry to hear this story. Ones again a lesson for all of us. *I`d not blame the seller*. I was working for a retailer in Belfast and Im sure there was plenty of green fertiliser  in  wool rock Tropica`s plants, so please do not say that they are safe. You always must rinse any bought plant few times before adding to the shrimp tank. People buy amazon swords and plant them with the wool for some reason... when You must keep the wool then must rinse the wool few times.


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## BigTom

zvirus said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> Sorry to hear this story. Ones again a lesson for all of us. *I`d not blame the seller*. I was working for a retailer in Belfast and Im sure there was plenty of green fertiliser  in  wool rock Tropica`s plants, so please do not say that they are safe. You always must rinse any bought plant few times before adding to the shrimp tank. People buy amazon swords and plant them with the wool for some reason... when You must keep the wool then must rinse the wool few times.



A simple rinse is never going to be enough if the plants have been treated with the kind of highly toxic pesticides that I am beginning to suspect are commonly used by growers in the far east. I have read enough of these exact same stories to think that many resellers of far eastern plants must be aware that their products carry risks for shrimp. You would hope that they would carry warnings to this effect on their websites, but obviously that would be bad for business.


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## dw1305

Hi all,


> out of interest where would you get sodium edta from in the UK?


 Should be widely available as it is used in food, pharmaceuticals, labs etc because Na is the least tightly bound ion and you can make FeEDTA with it etc.
"MistralNI" sell it <http://www.mistralni.co.uk>, but you might be able to get it from EBAY, just checked you can buy it pretty cheaply from "home_and_hobby_chems".

cheers Darrel


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## basil

Dincho said:
			
		

> I'm gutted for you, genuinely! I once had my 2 yr old daughter pour perfume in my high grade CRS tank, i lost about 200 of them! People say toothache is the worst pain in the world, i disagree, losing shrimp is worse!



You gotta see the funny side to that........eventually! I bet her mum wasn't too impressed either.....


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## Viv

Oh man that is gutting! 

Viv


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## Radik

I had once such sad day when I did flea treathement in the house. I am not sure one can get rid of whatever it caused once it happens. I would assume total break down and start over for the safety.


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## hotweldfire

Hello all. Thanks for your sympathy and kind comments. 

Quick update - 3 blue pearls still alive in the main tank. Sticking together and moving around slowly. Nothing else has emerged from the blyxa undergrowth.

Lost one more snow bee in my nano last night as well as the CRS I had pulled out of my main tank the night before. Most sakuras appear to have survived but down to 2 or 3 snow/golden bees from an original 15 or so.

Supplier has responded to me and pretty inadequately. Not a short brusque email mind, a longer fairly well considered response. But one that basically boils down to this statement:

"We do not take responsibility for loss of livestock for any customer. "

I've had enough messages and emails from other people either correctly guessing who the supplier is or recounting similar experiences to make me suspect the plants even more than I did. In addition this comment from the supplier is pretty suspicious:

"To date you are the only customer in the last 4 or 5 months to complain about this. "

Only the last 4 or 5 months? Not ever? Which suggests to me that they are aware of a potential risk because of customer losses in the past. Unless they've only been running for 4 or 5 months but I don't believe that's the case.

Now, I'm not in the business of messing with other people's livelihoods. Also, I don't know for sure it was the plants although that's perhaps a meaningless thing to say. The only way to have known was to test the plants for toxic substances before they went in and put them in one of two fairly identical tanks and see if there was a different number of losses over the next 24 hours. Let's just say I'm pretty confident the plants were the cause without being able to be sure.

What I am pretty sure about is that the offending substance was NOT copper. This is because there has not been a loss of snails in either tank. As Darrel suggest it's likely to be a pesticide or insecticide or some such.

However, I also feel responsible for other people's tanks and wouldn't want the same to happen to them. I do feel that this is part of the role of a forum like this - for members to keep each other informed of potential risks to their livestock and tanks.

BUT, I don't want to get the forum into trouble. I won't post the name of the supplier on this thread. I'd be willing to PM people on request but only if mods think this is OK. I will wait for advice from a moderator before responding to any such requests.


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## Piece-of-fish

I would think that it has to be made public. The supplier has to treat plants before selling.
Just imagine how many others suffered from this on other forums/notforums.
UKAPS is not the main customer of Asian plants afterall. Thousands are available from ebay which are usually supplied from the same importer.


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## Ian Holdich

I have read that this is becoming a more and more common problem, especially as shrimp tanks are becoming more and more popular. This is more reason for me to stick to Tropica and Aquafluer. At least we know what we're getting with these plants. The seller should at least state that the plants need quarantining before use. 

It must be gutting for you, i'd be fuming as well!


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## dw1305

Hi all,
My suspicion would be an insecticide like Permethrin, synthetic pyrethroids have very low toxicity to mammals (including humans), and virtually no phytotoxicity, but are extremely effective against all arthropods, not only insects but also crustaceans. Unfortunately nearly all insecticides that are toxic to insects will also be toxic to shrimps, and this will include organochlorines, organophosphates, pyrethroids, neonicotinoids etc. so it is pick a name, unless they tell you which compound they use.

This is the average LC50 (the lethal conc. needed to kill 50% of the trial organisms) category for Permethrin poisoning in crustaceans _LC50 < 100ug/L - "Very highly toxic_" details <http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC35397> & studies specifically with crustaceans: <http://www.pesticideinfo.org/List_AquireAll.jsp?Rec_Id=PC35397&Taxa_Group=Crustaceans>.

This is the data for Cabaryl <http://www.pesticideinfo.org/List_AquireAll.jsp?Rec_Id=PC32816&Taxa_Group=Crustaceans>, and that would be another possibility.

cheers Darrel


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## ghostsword

Being the devils advocate.. To publish names without proof is not good..  It could have been the plants, no doubt about that, but then it could have been anything else. Although it points to the plants, as it seems the only constant on the two tanks. 

Also, you need to share some of that blame; with such an expensive collection of shrimp, and living in London, with ample access to a shops that sell Tropica, and also knowing that Asian plants more often than not have pesticides sprayed on their plants, why would you buy or not have enough care with any plant that you would use on a shrimp tank?
 

Many people here have lost shrimp or fish due to pesticides, many of the leading experts on the field advocate even using only in vitro plants on shrimp tanks. 

I completely understand that we look for cheap plants, and instead of buying safely, and actually supporting the local trade, we buy cheap, and then risk loosing a lot of money, like you did. 

I know who the seller is. I buy often from them, but I can tell you that many of those plants go into emersed setups, where there are no shrimps, or even fish. 

Also pesticides do sometimes stay on the leaves and stems of plants, rinsing is not enough. 

Also note that many of the pesticides present on those plants, if any, may not be just damaging to the shrimp and fish, they can also be damaging to your own health, as you put your hands on the tank, some tanks are open top and you may have kids at home. 

So let this be a lesson to all, although many may know it already, you got shrimp and expensive fish, buy safely. What do I mean buy safely? Buy Tropica, Aquafleur, and from traders that support the forum, or people that you know. 

Again, I buy from the supplier in question, but I take precautions. 

I have lost shrimp from simply touching the cat, that had a flea collar, and not washing the hands when working on the tank, now imagine if I had placed a suspect plant on the tank?


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## Dincho

I think your handling it very well and graciously! Just remember though, there is no such thing as bad publicity! Posting a link to the sellers website will only increase website traffic and possibly sales.


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## Greenview

I agree, you are handling the loss very well indeed. Sorry to hear about it. 

Ghostsword, I have also bought from this supplier (if it is who i think it is), but for me cost was not the reason: they get hold of plants that tropica do not grow, and when planting a biotope this is important.


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## cheebs

I don't think the forum would get into trouble by you posting the name of the seller, especially if you qualify that statement, in the way that you already have, with an appropriate caveat. 

I'm gutted for you mate


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## Piece-of-fish

Although precautions could be made it has to be said LARGE PRINT IN RED on sellers website that these plants may kill your shrimp!!!
There are absolutely no excuses for the seller. Business owners like that discredit whole hobby. Why not treat plants accordingly, ok, spend more time, raise the price a bit but make your plants safe.
There were numbers of different complaints if I am guessing right, isnt it the time to fix the issues?


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## Gill

I have made this mistake in the Past, With my Sulawesi Cardinal shrimp. Completely my own fault, as forgot the seller treats with copper.


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## ghostsword

You are right Edis, I also believe that it should be advertised. It would be fair I think.

With shrimp being so expensive and the pesticides so deadly so quickly, the seller should advertise in a disclaimer the risks.

But if the plants absorb the nasty stuff through the leaves and stems, there is really no way to get it right. 


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## hotweldfire

ghostsword said:
			
		

> Being the devils advocate.. To publish names without proof is not good..  It could have been the plants, no doubt about that, but then it could have been anything else. Although it points to the plants, as it seems the only constant on the two tanks.
> 
> Also, you need to share some of that blame; with such an expensive collection of shrimp, and living in London, with ample access to a shops that sell Tropica, and also knowing that Asian plants more often than not have pesticides sprayed on their plants, why would you buy or not have enough care with any plant that you would use on a shrimp tank?



Luis, you make some reasonable arguments here. You are right, I can't be sure it was the plants. For example, there might have been something on my hands (there wasn't by the way, they were clean) and because I put my hands in both tanks when putting the plants in that could account for why both tanks took casualties. 

However, let's be clear about what adequate proof would constitute. I would either have had to conduct a controlled experiment with two near identical tanks. Or I would needed to have tested the plants for toxic substances. Obviously I, and almost every other hobbyist, do not have the facilities to do that.

I do think I was foolish putting the plants in with foam and weights and, in the case of the P. helferi, rockwool. I was in a hurry and didn't have time to plant. However, I disagree with you about where I bought from. I think Ed is right in that the supplier has to take responsibility for informing customers about the potential risks of their products. Whilst price was a consideration like Greenjar availability of certain plants was the main reason I bought from them. It wasn't even rare plants, just couldn't get any E. vivipara, which I needed to bulk up the wall of it I already have,  from any of the main retailers or either of my usual LFS.

If the supplier is aware of the risks because they know the growers use the pesticide then they are culpable. They have a responsibility to inform customers of that risk. Naturally they will never do that because they will never sell any plants that way but the responsible solution is to not buy in from those suppliers. 

To be clear I did not know that this supplier might do this or that far east growers had a reputation for using pesticides/insecticides on plants. I would never have bought from them if I had. I would also point out that I am not  a noob. I've only been into planted tanks for a year but have got quite into it during that period. Therefore I would surmise that there are plenty of people on this forum, and plenty who have not even found this forum, who would know less than me and buy from the supplier innocently not being aware of the risks.

As such I feel it is only responsible of me to inform people of who the supplier is. I will not do that on this thread. I don't think that is appropriate and after speaking to a mod I also feel that this might pose a threat to the forum. However, said mod is happy for me to tell people by PM. So if you would like me to tell you drop me a line. Apologies to those who already have and who I haven't responded to. I will do so now.


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## ghostsword

Thanks dude, your arguments make a lot of sense. Sorry if I came out a bit wrong, but I wrongly assumed that it was common knowledge that most asian growers use pesticides on their plants.  






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## LondonDragon

ghostsword said:
			
		

> but I wrongly assumed that it was common knowledge that most asian growers use pesticides on their plants.


Common knowledge? Its up to the seller to inform the customers that the plants might be treated with something that could potentially kill your invertebrates. I remember once going down to a store in South London to purchase some plants and be told that some of the plants were not ready to be sold yet and must wait a couple of weeks before I could buy them, or if I did buy them they must not be placed in a tank with shrimp and then it was up to me on what to do.


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## Nelson

Maybe someone,smarter than me,could write an article warning members about plants from Asia and make it a sticky in the inverts forum :idea: .
I'm with Luis and thought it was common knowledge.BUT,I guess you think it is when you know   .


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## ghostsword

Thanks Nelson.  

Paulo don't shoot me for thinking it was common knowledge.  I will apologize again. 

It is indeed a sad situation.


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## Ian Holdich

nelson said:
			
		

> Maybe someone,smarter than me,could write an article warning members about plants from Asia and make it a sticky in the inverts forum :idea: .




thats a good idea Nelson, if it can save people hard earned money and the trouble, i think it's worth it.


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## George Farmer

Hi all,

I'm writing this on my phone so please excuse the brevity.

Hotweldfire - very sorry about your devastation. Thank you for dealing with the matter with wisdom by not publicly naming and shaming. Please accept my apologies for not addressing this issue before now.

The danger of Asian plants potentially causing shrimp deaths through lack of pre-cleaning etc. has been discussed before here.

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=17143&start=20

Tomorrow when I get more time I will create appropriate pinned topics to warn folk about the potential dangers of purchasing plants from retailers that import plants from Asia.

Cheers,
George


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## Piece-of-fish

I did not know it is common sense either   
Maybe my shrimp affair is going too smooth so far. I tend to put everything into shrimp tanks without treatment. Will stop now. 
Unfortunately stopping buying from these people will not stop the business. Their main profit I believe comes from eBay, mostly from other people reselling their plants. Biggest part of buyers are first and only time buyers. We are just a fraction of all sales.
I have a question though. What treatment would make these plants safe?


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## ghostsword

I learned it last year when at vivarium, Claus Christensen did a talk about it, and advised people to just buy Tropica, and if shrimp are at stake then go the extra mile and buy 1-2-grow (in vitro).

The issue is so big that ADC in london has shrimp on the plant holding tank to show buyers that the plants are safe from pesticides. Bit like the canary on the mines. 

I am not sure how pesticides stay on the plant, but I would think that they would stay inside the living tissue of the plants, so rinsing may not be enough. Also you have no idea what the nursery has used. Insects do become resistant to pesticides so maybe they are using something really strong. We just don't know.

There is a lot of information on the forum, so maybe some of the mods can collect it and make a small sticky for all people to read, old and new alike.

I buy often plants from Asia, but I use them on emersed setups, and after a couple of weeks of having them with roots and established then I will move them to a tank, and without shrimps, just to be safe.

With expensive shrimps? Covered tank and just in vitro plants, just in case.  If I had some of Edis shrimps? I would get some surgical gloves as well. 


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## LondonDragon

ianho said:
			
		

> thats a good idea Nelson, if it can save people hard earned money and the trouble, i think it's worth it.


If the sellers don't say they are from asia then people will still be at risk, the sellers should be warning people about the fact they are from asia or that they are treated and will need quarantine.


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## daniel19831123

Emyr said:
			
		

> Where did you purchase these plants from? The main brands such as tropica and aquaflur are safe from this sort of thing I assume? I have never seen anything or heard of this happen to anyone before. Hugely infuriating.



Nope it's not safe. I've wiped my own colony with aquafleur stock and tropica standard stock. I won't put the plant in the shrimp tank unless I tried a tester shrimp with the plant nowadays and that normally happens after 1 month of purchasing the plants unless they came from a shrimp planted tank


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## Ian Holdich

LondonDragon said:
			
		

> ianho said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thats a good idea Nelson, if it can save people hard earned money and the trouble, i think it's worth it.
> 
> 
> 
> If the sellers don't say they are from asia then people will still be at risk, the sellers should be warning people about the fact they are from asia or that they are treated and will need quarantine.
Click to expand...


I agree, but the sellers won't do this without concrete evidence, although many of us guessed right and kew who the seller is/was, all this is still anecdotal. I think it's safe for us to say that most plants get bought in with sponge and leaded weights around the bottom are in fact shipped from Asia, the problem is that some places may actually quarantine. 

I'm not sure the way around it Paulo without naming and shaming.


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## basil

Another vote for name and shame here....sounds better if you call it 'helping to raise awareness amongst end users' though!


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## George Farmer

Hi all,

Naming and shaming presents legal issues that I'm not happy to risk.

Once I've carried out more research on the subject of contaminated plants and how to treat them effectively, a pinned topic will be created to warn folk about the potential issues and how to minimise the risk of shrimp wipeouts etc.

Meanwhile, if there are any other members with more experience and knowledge on this subject, who are prepared to create a small article, then please let me or another mod/admin/founder know.

For instance, as Ed asked, is there some kind invert-safe sterilisation dip available to remove all traces of pesticide, insecticide etc from plants?

Cheers,
George


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## Radik

Piece-of-fish said:
			
		

> I have a question though. What treatment would make these plants safe?



Safest treatment is not to buy them for shrimp tanks  Stick to Tropica, Aquafleur and AG Invitro from Europe

Maybe Darrel or who can explain us if these pesticides/insecticides have tendency to use substrate CEC capacity. If yes then I would throw away such substrate right away.


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## Brenmuk

First off I'm gutted for you hotweldfire over your shrimp loss.

I'm still not clear about the best way to treat new plants for a shrimp tank though.

If you suspect Cu or other heavy metal contamination then use some kind of chelator such as NaEDTA as suggested by Darrel. 
But what is the best way to deal with insecticides? Soak in a tank/bucket with activated carbon and plenty of water changes - is that enough? What if the pesticide is in the plant tissue as suggested by ghostsword?

Always remove packaging - was the foam /mineral wool a reservoir for the pesticides?

Some people have mentioned only buying from certain suppliers but is that enough of a precaution if you have expensive stock?

It would be good to have a sticky on this in the invert section of the forum.


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## Dincho

George Farmer said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> 
> Naming and shaming presents legal issues that I'm not happy to risk.
> 
> Once I've carried out more research on the subject of contaminated plants and how to treat them effectively, a pinned topic will be created to warn folk about the potential issues and how to minimise the risk of shrimp wipeouts etc.
> 
> Meanwhile, if there are any other members with more experience and knowledge on this subject, who are prepared to create a small article, then please let me or another mod/admin/founder know.
> 
> For instance, as Ed asked, is there some kind invert-safe sterilisation dip available to remove all traces of pesticide, insecticide etc from plants?
> 
> Cheers,
> George




I use something in all my shrimp tanks that "removes harmful substances from the water", i am not sure how far this stretches though. I will do a little more research before i start touting it as being safe.


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## Dincho

I have just had a quick conversation with a breeder in Japan, his English is not great but this is what i got:

To treat parasites you should dip the plants in sparkling mineral water for about 20 seconds, the carbon dioxide will kill the parasites. However, it will not kill the eggs so a repeat dip 2 weeks later is required.

I asked about the product i use and how effective it is against absorbing harmful substances such as pesticides, this was the response *"*The insecticide which carries out adsorption decomposition of ammonia, nitric acid, nitrous acid, heavy metals, and the magnesium does not adsorb*"* also *"*An adsorption effect is one month. 
However, since the inside of an overly porosity product serves as a house of bacteria, please continue putting it in as it is.That to which it stuck is decomposed. It does not emit.*"*

Make of that what you will :?  Sorry i couldn't be of more help, its not an issue i have ever had to deal with.


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## BigTom

Dincho, I was running cuprisorb, purigen and a poly filter mat when this happened to me the second time and it took weeks for the tank to be shrimp safe again; I'm doubtful that any of those products made much difference but can't be sure one way or the other unfortunately.


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## Dincho

I agree, its hard to understand his English but from what i make out its no good for pesticides. Its unlikely any product could help, i think its just a case of knowing where to buy and where not. I guess this is a lesson for us all!


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## ghostsword

Dincho said:
			
		

> I agree, its hard to understand his English but from what i make out its no good for pesticides. Its unlikely any product could help, i think its just a case of knowing where to buy and where not. I guess this is a lesson for us all!



I would like to reiterate what Claus has said, that in vitro plants are super safe. 

Also, I asked Tropica last year about use of pesticides, they said that they do not use them. So if someone's shrimp died when using tropica plants, they may have been contaminated at the LFS. 

Don't know about Aquafleur, but I would think that they do not use pesticides either.


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## Frosties

*Re: Wipe Out - NAMED!*

About time the supplier was named and shamed... It was PlantedTanks.co.uk

I discussed the issue on this forum previously as per George has also stated - here is the link 

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=17143&start=20

Sadly - there is no way ANY supplier can be responsible for a customers livestock. It is basic fish husbandry to quarantine ANY addition to your tanks - beit Fish, Inverts, Substrate, rock, wood and plant. 

All our plants are well known as being sourced in the far east - this is stated on the website as the history of the company being founded from BORNEO.

I am sorry for the loss of the livestock - however as stated - the customer did a very basic quarantine by his own admission - however this is a fairly good quarantine as many customers dont even wash their plants before adding to their tanks.


----------



## BigTom

*Re: Wipe Out - NAMED!*



			
				Frosties said:
			
		

> About time the supplier was named and shamed... It was PlantedTanks.co.uk
> 
> I discussed the issue on this forum previously as per George has also stated - here is the link
> 
> viewtopic.php?f=21&t=17143&start=20
> 
> Sadly - there is no way ANY supplier can be responsible for a customers livestock. It is basic fish husbandry to quarantine ANY addition to your tanks - beit Fish, Inverts, Substrate, rock, wood and plant.
> 
> All our plants are well known as being sourced in the far east - this is stated on the website as the history of the company being founded from BORNEO.
> 
> I am sorry for the loss of the livestock - however as stated - the customer did a very basic quarantine by his own admission - however this is a fairly good quarantine as many customers dont even wash their plants before adding to their tanks.



Given the repeated losses of shrimp amongst your customers, do you think it would be worth adding a note about the need for extensive plant quarantine to your website Tony? It would seem that many people are unaware of the dangers involved, and shrimp tanks are very much on the rise in the hobby.


----------



## Frosties

A valid question Tom, and in essence I think that may be a good idea - however I will wait to see what document this forum generates and with the forum permission - re-post it in its entirity as this is the most respected forum in the UK. I will think about where to put such a note in the site.

Point to note - to date in the 2+ years PlantedTanks has been trading - we are aware of only 5 incidents of people loosing livestock following the addition of plants to their tanks. The last was (excepting this incident) documented on this forum - prior to that - a well respected author from a large publication forgot to do basic quarantine and lost a heck of a lot of livestock. In each case - we clearly sympathise with the tank owners, but sadly cannot possibly take responsibility for the livestock. What we do is document the incident, and report this to DEFRA and UK Customs. because of the import packaging the only source of any pesticide will be the far east and not within the transit methods. We also advise the certifying agents in the far east as the plants when shipped are certified to be pesticide free!!! This is one of the items on the phytosanitary certificate we look for.


----------



## ghostsword

Frosties said:
			
		

> We also advise the certifying agents in the far east as the plants when shipped are certified to be pesticide free!!! This is one of the items on the phytosanitary certificate we look for.



The plants from Asia are supposed to be pesticide free, and certified as such? That turns the whole argument on it's head, as I would not think that Defra would accept a fake certificate.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


> Maybe Darrel or who can explain us if these pesticides/insecticides have tendency to use substrate CEC capacity. If yes then I would throw away such substrate right away.


 Unfortunately I really don't know. My suspicion would be that it is an insecticide that is toxic to shrimp at extremely low levels, like the permethrin mentioned earlier in the thread. Because the effect on the shrimps is so quick, I think this must be a residue on the plants, the rockwool or sponge would be the obvious reservoir, but it could actually be on the plant itself if it is toxic enough. 

Potentially there should be compounds that will adsorb any pesticide residues (*activated charcoal* is the one that comes to mind straight away), but I'll need to do some research to find out which ones would be suitable. I have a colleague who has been looking at some activated charcoal sponge (to mop up heavy metals in land-fill leachate), I'll see whether she looked at anything else. It will probably depend on the nature of the contract whether I can report what she says here.  

If it was systemic insecticide that the plant takes up (like the anti vine weevil insecticide chloropyrifos added to potting composts etc) it might remain in the plant for some time (~6 weeks), and could be really difficult to deal with.

cheers Darrel


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke

Excuse my ignorance but how far would Defra go to make sure the law was adhered to?


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


> The plants from Asia are supposed to be pesticide free, and certified as such? That turns the whole argument on it's head, as I would not think that Defra would accept a fake certificate.


 & 





> Excuse my ignorance but how far would Defra go to make sure the law was adhered to?


 I'd be surprised if this was of great interest to them, the Government keeps on chopping the DEFRA budget, and I'd be very surprised if the plant health inspectorate is in any position to comply with all the relevant EU law. Because these plants are likely to be free of any pests that might be of interest (Palm Thrips, Tobacco White Fly etc), and will possess a phytosanitary certificate, I would suspect they go straight through customs. 

The DEFRA/FERA pages are here: <http://fera.defra.gov.uk/plants/plantHealth/> &
<http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32000L0029:EN:NOT>

FERA have clamped down recently on imports which carried a human health risk <http://fera.defra.gov.uk/plants/plantHealth/tanzaniaFlowers.cfm>. This is the imported plants page: <http://www.fera.defra.gov.uk/plants/plantHealth/imports/index.cfm>.

cheers Darrel


----------



## George Farmer

Some very interesting, and quite disturbing info here. Thanks, Darrel.

I wonder how many others have lost shrimp due to contaminated plants that we're not aware of.

On balance as well, I do hope that as soon as some folk lose their shrimp, they don't automatically assume it's the fault of the plants.

Look out for a pinned topic soon.


----------



## ghostsword

Great information Darrel. 

It should make us think twice about what we buy and what we put on our tanks. 

Looking forward to the pinned topic.


___________________________


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke

> I'd be surprised if this was of great interest to them



That is what I suspected, I would imagine they have a lot more to worry about and as you say not the funding to check everything that comes in. Following this thread it seems there is mention of the chemicals possibly being in the plant tissue itself absorbed by the plants and released into the water through the natural process as it's growing. I don't know how far defra would look into something but I suspect they would be more interested in the species of plant rather than testing for chemicals within. Then there is the issue of what happens to plants when they get over here and how they are kept after being shipped in.

Would have been a very good post this if it wasn't for the loss of someone's hard earned pride and joy shrimp at the start. I for one never even realised that it could happen and will think carefully in future when selecting plants. Like another poster has mentioned it makes you wonder how many people have been affected by this and blamed the ppl they got the shrimp off or co2 asphyxiation, even Easy Carbo has been in the suspect list.


----------



## Frosties

I agree, I know and can report that the plants do hit customs without physical inspection. Several times we have called defra to report illegal aliens in the packing crates. 
For example, back in November we had to call defra following a spider infestation. September our fish came with an additional snake! Back in summer we got a massive spider as well!!!
We know when our plants have been inspected, the boxes are re-taped with a defra tape! Simple but we know then they have been checked. Sometimes our deliveries are late - when this happens it is because they have checked all boxes!
I have questioned this several times with defra and their policy is to randomly select several boxes from the cargo delivery to check. They openly stated due to budget and time they can't check them all every week. 

I have read all the posts on this thread. I am willing to try charcoal filters here and will add them to the tanks this week. We have several kilos of charcoal available from our garra rufa stocks (which currently don't sell that well thanks to a bad report in a newspaper) and will be interested if that does make a difference. 
As George says - I wonder how many incidents do go unreported. We certainly don't see that many (fortunately), although when we do it is usually large volumes that die before someone says something. 
I am willing to work on this for the benefit of my company and also the benefit in knowledge to our customers that we do everything possible to remove any pesticides and insecticides. 
I can say that to stock plants for upto 6 weeks would be impractical and not cost effective. I would imagine that would be the same for any other plant specialist.


----------



## Piece-of-fish

I do agree that it is inpractical for the supllier to keep asian plants in quarantine as it is simply impossible.
I believe the suplier has to find the way to clean and make plants livestock safe with imidiate effect.
This is absolutely essential with shrimp on the rise. Otherwise you will have lots and lots of unhappy customers.


----------



## hinch

identifying the chemicals used to create a neutralising/binding solution would be the quick fix but the problem is if the chemical is absorbed into the plant then your shafted and if the supplier changes the chemical you're also shafted


----------



## Sentral

Really sorry to hear this, I've never really thought that such a problem could exist with these plants.

I used plantedtanks for my initial planting, so I didn't have any livestock in there luckily. 

I'll make sure to fully cleanse any new plants I get.

On another note, I just came across this thread on PFK. http://forum.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk ... hp?t=71907 Seems like this happens quite a lot! Shows a lack of information on plant sellers behalf.


----------



## ghostsword

Great link. The thread discuss how many people kill their shrimps with purchases of plants and not quarantining them.

Quote:
 "Always thoroughly rinse or even soak newly acquired plants before placing them in a shrimp tank. All plants entering the UK are treated as this is a legal requirement. Many shops don't know this. The treatment used WILL kill your shrimp! It won't harm your fish though."

So, is it on the responsibility of the supplier to place a note on their website? Yes, absolutely. 

Is the suppliers responsibility to quarantine the plants? Of course not, they are cheap for a reason. If you are not prepared to quarantine the plants yourself buy in vitro plants, or use rocks and wood only.  


___________________________


----------



## Viv

Although it stemmed from something I wish hadn't happened this has been very interesting and enlightening. I'm pretty new to shrimp keeping and planted tanks and hadn't fully realised how sensitive shrimp can be. I'd heard about shrimp sensitivity to copper so had started rinsing new plants in water + Prime but thats all and tbh a couple of recent purchases of moss from Malaysia didn't even get that!    The more I read on here the more I realise how very fortunate I was not to lose my shrimp. I will be much more thorough in future!!!!

Viv


----------



## hotweldfire

Apologies for the late reply all. Have been flat out recently and decided no post was better than a rushed post.



			
				Frosties said:
			
		

> I am sorry for the loss of the livestock - however as stated - the customer did a very basic quarantine by his own admission



I have to take issue with this statement. At no point have I said that my quarantine was very basic. All I said was that I could have left the plants under running tap water for an hour and I'm pretty certain that wouldn't have solved the problem. In fact in my email exchange with you, you said:

"You have performed good husbandry in the plants as a basic wash"

so I'm rather surprised to see the statement above from you in this thread. I went out of my way to be careful not to name you. It is your prerogative to come on here and name yourself but it is unacceptable for you to use that as an opportunity to misrepresent me in order to deflect the blame away from yourself.



			
				Frosties said:
			
		

> Point to note - to date in the 2+ years PlantedTanks has been trading - we are aware of only 5 incidents of people loosing livestock following the addition of plants to their tanks.





			
				Frosties said:
			
		

> As George says - I wonder how many incidents do go unreported. We certainly don't see that many (fortunately), although when we do it is usually large volumes that die before someone says something.



Judging by the comments on this thread and the PMs I've got I think your suspicion is warranted. I expect this kind of thing happens a lot but at a lower level such that people don't feel sure enough it was the plants or don't feel comfortable making an issue out of it.

Can we try to get a bit of perspective here people? As I'm sure you're well aware, and as Tony has stated, the quarantine measures I undertook are more than the vast majority of buyers will undertake. In most cases those buyers will be fine because there won't be insecticides or copper on the plants. But one dodgy shipment and bang there goes all their livestock. If people like Ed and me didn't know about this risk what hope is there for the majority of customers?



			
				ghostsword said:
			
		

> Great link. The thread discuss how many people kill their shrimps with purchases of plants and not quarantining them.
> 
> Quote:
> "Always thoroughly rinse or even soak newly acquired plants before placing them in a shrimp tank. All plants entering the UK are treated as this is a legal requirement. Many shops don't know this. The treatment used WILL kill your shrimp! It won't harm your fish though."
> 
> So, is it on the responsibility of the supplier to place a note on their website? Yes, absolutely.
> 
> Is the suppliers responsibility to quarantine the plants? Of course not, they are cheap for a reason. If you are not prepared to quarantine the plants yourself buy in vitro plants, or use rocks and wood only.
> 
> 
> ___________________________



I fundamentally disagree with you Luis. This is akin to saying you bought some new furniture for your house, your dogs chewed on it and died, but it's not the supplier's fault because the sofa was sold half price. It's your fault for not scrubbing the sofa before letting your dogs near it.

Given that what I did was not enough is it reasonable to claim that it is the buyer's responsibility to ensure that the plants are safe? Seriously, are you suggesting that anyone who buys plants for a tank with shrimp in it should have it running in a bucket with a filter full of carbon and EDTA for a week with twice daily water changes before putting it in the tank? If buyers like Tony put this advice on their website do you think they'd sell even 10% of the plants they do now? Even people without shrimps would be put off buying from them. This is not the solution if the industry wants any hope of surviving. Not looking to pick a fight with you mate but I think you are plain wrong here.

Let me just make my position perfectly clear here - it is not my responsibility to make the plants safe, it is not the grower's responsibility, it is not DEFRA's responsibility. IT IS THE SUPPLIER'S RESPONSIBILITY. It may not constitute a legal responsibility given how lightly the industry is regulated. But it does constitute a moral responsibility and if the supplier does not want to ruin their reputation it also makes good business sense.

If PlantedTanks sold plants solely for emersed growth I would not have an issue with Tony. But they do not and it is their responsibility to take measures to minimise the risk to their customers' livestock. If this means elevated costs then they need to raise their prices and take the hit to their profit margins. The alternative for them is more forum threads like this. The word will get around and they will lose sales.



			
				Piece-of-fish said:
			
		

> I do agree that it is inpractical for the supllier to keep asian plants in quarantine as it is simply impossible.
> I believe the suplier has to find the way to clean and make plants livestock safe with imidiate effect.
> This is absolutely essential with shrimp on the rise. Otherwise you will have lots and lots of unhappy customers.



Ed says it better than I can. If not with immediate effect then quickly.



			
				Frosties said:
			
		

> I am willing to work on this for the benefit of my company and also the benefit in knowledge to our customers that we do everything possible to remove any pesticides and insecticides.
> I can say that to stock plants for upto 6 weeks would be impractical and not cost effective. I would imagine that would be the same for any other plant specialist.



I know shops, mentioned by Paulo above, who will not sell plants coming in from the far east to customers with shrimp until they've quarantined them. Said shops have not gone out of business because of investing in those quarantining measures. Similarly, as Luis said ADC keep some cherries in the plant holding tanks. 

I agree Tony that you can't quarantine for 6 weeks. You should be able to for 3 days and this might make the difference. I'm glad you're learning from this experience and trying carbon. I would suggest some tester shrimp (low end cherries would do) in a holding tank. Please keep in mind I didn't just lose high end crystals. I also lost most of my blue pearls which are relatively hardy and my amanos that have survived 6 years of minor disasters in this tank. They didn't survive this.


----------



## ghostsword

I really understand your disappointment, and loss, but one needs to be subjective and fair. 

You bought plants, you washed them and you placed them on the tank.

To use your example, had I bought a sofa, the dog chewed on it and died do you think that I could have any standing on a court to argue my case? Do you know any supplier of sofas that says that their items are safe to be chewed by dogs?

Did Tony ever said that his plants were safe for shrimp? 

Had he said it then yes, he owes you money.  But I do not think that he did, either because he could not be absolutely sure of it, or because he knew that they were not. I don't know.

Yes, you lost money and time on this. Yes, there should be a note like the one that Java Plants has. No disputing any of that, but you have to share the blame for this episode. 

You bought the plants, placed them on your tank, without being fully informed of the issue they could pose.

Next time buy Tropica, or InVitro. InVitro are the only ones 100% safe for shrimp.


___________________________


----------



## ghostsword

I know the above sounds too harsh, I do apologize, this is meant not at you directly, but as a lesson to all.

As Claus Christensen said, only InVitro plants are safe to use with shrimps, that should be the lesson to take.

Edis is strickly forbidden of getting any plants for his tanks!!  


___________________________


----------



## hinch

unfortunately there's not a brilliant range of the invitro plants available compared to normal grown, hell even tropica's normal range dont have some plants which you can get from the asian suppliers. its a trade off and risk we have to take though


----------



## ghostsword

If I had shrimp I would not take the risk. I actually do not think that rinsing is enough.  

We just don't know what pesticides they use. 


___________________________


----------



## cheebs

Maybe suppliers of cheap asian plants should do a number of things. 


* Ensure people are aware of the risk thier plants could have to delicate livestock.

* Offer advice on how to effectively clean / quarantine the plants - maybe a factsheet

* Offer a shrimp safe alternative (i.e. pre quarantined stock - preferably kept in a holding tank with a few shrimp) at a small premium

I'm not sure i agree with your sofa analogy either saj    but I also dont think its that similar to this situation. As a dog owner, you have a responsability to control your dog when it puts other members of hte public at risk, but also a responsibility to keep the dog safe. If it was a dog toy you bought, that got ripped apart, and subsequently caused the dog to choke to death, then I would agree with you. It is the sellers responsibility to inform customers of the potential risks just in the same way that KP have to say "May contain nuts" on a packet of peanuts (or at the very least have a caveat in the Ts and Cs exhonorating the seller of his responsibility). He is selling these plants, marketed towards aquarists, and has a responsibilty not to mislead (deliberately or otherwise) any subgroups (i.e. shrimp keepers) about the safety of using plants in a particular environment by a lack of information.


----------



## ghostsword

You are right mate, I think that Plants Alive is on the right path with the document they send with their plants..


----------



## Piece-of-fish

Amen...
Just had another thought about a different scenario. Imagine the situation other way round.
Person sets up tank, gets plants and in a week or whatever when the rubish is still there buys shrimp to already infected tank.    Whos reputation and because of who is under threat then? Food for thought.

Actually i think putting a note together with plants which will say very brightly about potential risks with invertebrates is a brilliant idea. That is what we also do what we post shrimp. Note how to acclimatise them and thorough description of shrimp species. Also a note on the description of plants would be good. Choose words wisely and correctly and it should not discourage customers to buy.

I agree with Saj that ' quarantine your plants with filter and daily waterchanges' is... Well...


----------



## Radik

One warning note also for people who has pets at home. Do not use flea foggers as it works better on shrimp than on fleas. Already tested in autumn.


----------



## hotweldfire

ghostsword said:
			
		

> I know the above sounds too harsh, I do apologize, this is meant not at you directly, but as a lesson to all.



Mate, though I still think you're completely wrong there's absolutely no need to apologise. All you're doing is stating your perfectly well reasoned argument as part of a civilised debate. To be frank the considered and grown up approach of people like you is one of the main reasons I love this forum. On many other places this thread would have turned into a flame war by now.



			
				cheebs said:
			
		

> I'm not sure i agree with your sofa analogy either saj   but I also dont think its that similar to this situation. As a dog owner, you have a responsability to control your dog when it puts other members of hte public at risk, but also a responsibility to keep the dog safe. If it was a dog toy you bought, that got ripped apart, and subsequently caused the dog to choke to death, then I would agree with you.



No mate, I still think the sofa analogy is more appropriate than the dog toy one. That's because, ultimately, a plant is part of the environment (the furniture if you like) of a tank in which a shrimp lives. I think a poisoned catappa leaf would be more akin to a dog toy.



			
				ghostsword said:
			
		

> To use your example, had I bought a sofa, the dog chewed on it and died do you think that I could have any standing on a court to argue my case? Do you know any supplier of sofas that says that their items are safe to be chewed by dogs?



Luis, I think you've inadvertently made my point for me. That being that the sofa manufacturer shouldn't have to say that the sofa is dog safe. The customer shouldn't have to check on the manufacturer's website whether it is dog safe. *The manufacturer should just make it dog safe.* They shouldn't be making or selling products with toxins in. And a company that sells plants for aquariums shouldn't be selling plants that are covered in poison.

I think the legal issue is neither here nor there. As I said in the previous post, I'm not saying that the seller has a legal responsibility. They have a moral one and a reputation to keep.

I agree that java plants are on the right track. But let's be clear here, following their advice wouldn't have saved my shrimp. I did more than the advice said and they still died didn't they. The only way that advice slip would have helped would be if I had decided to chuck the plants in the bin because it scared me. Of course I would have already paid for them at that point wouldn't I.

So I say to you again, do you seriously expect the average punter with shrimp in their tank to quarantine plants for days? Are you really saying to that punter it's your fault that your shrimp are at risk and not the seller? Because if you are then you're saying that keeping shrimp is for a small elite who have the time and resources (and understanding partners/family) to do that quarantine and the rest aren't allowed.

What I'm saying is let the seller do the quarantine and then we, the buyer, pay a bit extra for safe plants. It shouldn't cost vast amounts more after all so I don't think this will be pricing customers out of the market. It will be keeping their livestock safe though.


----------



## hotweldfire

Also, a quick update. No further losses to report. The three blue pearls in the main tank keep on rocking and the sakuras and remaining golden bees all seem fine in the nano. I have added a new tester shrimp into the main tank late last week and it's also fine. Unfortunately the loss of the shrimp has resulted in a massive snail population bloom but at least they're keeping the algae in check.

Looks like the toxins haven't been absorbed by anything in the tank. I've been running activated carbon in both and doing lots of water changes so that seems to have sorted it.

By the way, according to this blog Prime does not have EDTA in it:



> First, I was surprised to find out that Prime does NOT have EDTA in it and was never formulated to treat heavy metals but they later found out that one or more of their "proprietary" ingredients had some kind of effect on some heavy metals but it's not the same as the chelating effect of EDTA. Here's what Seachem says:
> Prime is not a chelating agent, so it does not work that way with heavy metals. Soluble heavy metals (metal ions that can be absorbed) are in an oxidized state. Prime reduces metals, which detoxifies them. Note that it does not remove metals from the water (it just detoxifies them), so you really should have a decent water supply or RO/DI equipment. Please also note again that we talk about detoxifying heavy metals found in tap water at typical concentrations; we do not sell Prime to detoxify heavy metals at abnormally high concentrations.


http://goldlenny.blogspot.com/2010/09/discussiong-about-seachem-prime-and.html


----------



## ghostsword

hotweldfire said:
			
		

> They shouldn't be making or selling products with toxins in. And a company that sells plants for aquariums shouldn't be selling plants that are covered in poison.



Now this I fully agree with. 

The toxins may be toxic not just to the fish and shrimps but also to us. God know what ailments we may come out in the next couple of years. 

Just because they are deemed safe now that does not mean much. Asbestos was ok a while ago, remember?


----------



## Frosties

Sadly this issue has now been reported several times on this forum and others...

I have today emailed Fera who are responsible for the import legislation adherence. I have also emailed the farms which we use in Singapore and Borneo for a formal response. The response will be posted publicly on this forum and on my website when I get them.

http://www.fera.defra.gov.uk/plants/plantHealth/
The above link is the site for Fera who clearly state what they do and what they don't...

This issue has been reported in:

http://forum.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/showthread.php?t=82320
http://forum.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/showthread.php?t=71907
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=17143&p=176977&hilit=wipeout#p176977
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=19481

When I get the formal response from the farms, and also confirmed details relating to fera - I will be posting a warning on my site. 
For the benefit of the forum - this one and others I have asked for specific names of chemicals that they hold in their facility - what they are used for etc.

It was posted earlier on this thread - something to do with a fogger for a flea treatment - not good really - but I can say that I have personally fallen foul of:
air fresheners
Window cleaner
polish (spray versions)
washing up liquid
nasal medication (the spray types)
and the list does go on... sadly many of these product contain items which are toxic to man and beast - this means that shrimp can be harmed as well...


----------



## Piece-of-fish

Thank you Tony for trying to solve this. I am sure sooner or later this issue could be sorted. I myself once treated my Cherry and CRS with anti bed bug spray    They did not like it either.
I would say any spray is potentially dangerous.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,
Thanks to Tony, I'll be very interested in any response from either FERA or the farms in SE Asia. I haven't got any further with gathering any hard evidence for the possible toxic compound, but my suspicion is that it may be an organophosphorus insecticide "Temephos", probably in the BASF "ABATE" formulation, dispersed via a fogger as a mosquito larvicide, and particularly for the control of Dengue Fever. <http://www.bentzjaz.com.sg/construction.asp>.

It would combine being persistent and very toxic to crustaceans, but relatively plant/people safe.
<http://www.ecotox.org.au/aje/archives/vol1p107.pdf>

"Insecticide resistance in dengue vectors" 


> _Insecticides such as the organophosphate temephos can be applied to these large containers to reduce larval density. Temephos has very low mammalian toxicity, low odor, is available in long lasting formulations, is relatively cheap, and is usually the insecticide of choice for larviciding water supplies used for washing clothes, bathing, and cleaning dishes. It can also be used to treat drinking water although acceptance levels are often low......_



From: TropIKA.net vol.1 no.1  Jan./Mar. 2010, Hilary RansonI,*; Joseph BurhaniII; Nongkran LumjuanII; William C Black IVIII
ILiverpool School of Tropical Medicine, UK
IIResearch Institute for Health Sciences, Chiang Mai University, Thailand
IIIColorado State University, USA

cheers Darrel


----------



## hotweldfire

RE: identifying the substance, just want to flag again that whatever it is doesn't harm snails at all. They are thriving in the main tank now and I didn't see any casualties when the shrimp went. Don't know if that helps to identify it.


----------



## Frosties

Tell me about it! Snails are a pain in the ass! My puffers are the size of a bluefin tuna! 


---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=53.781513,-1.060707


----------



## Frosties

I can confirm that we have a response from all three farms we use in the Far East. I will provide the details hopefully by the end of the week.


----------



## Frosties

I can confirm the following information has been provided by the farms in Singapore who supply plants to the UK market. This information has been consulted on with respected persons in this industry.

*Phytosanitary certification* requires the plants to be free of pests and disease prior to export to the receiving country. The methods applied are as follows – information supplied per farm:

Our premium plants are dipped in BUPROFEZIN (0.01%) & TRICHLORFON (0.08%) for the duration 120 minutes

Our primary supplier for standard plants dip in IMIDACLOPRID 18.3% V/V (0.005%) for 45 minutes

Our second supplier for standard plant range dip in IMIDACLOPRID 18.3% V/V (0.005%) for 60 minutes

All farms advise that following exposure to the above chemicals, all plants are rinsed in freshwater – although they do not advise for how long. The advice from the farms for end customers is that they  quarantine the plants in a plant only system before introducing to a tank populated with inverts & crustaceans etc.

Plants that are classed as overstock remain in our tanks until sold – this can be up to 6 days.

Reference has been made against all three chemicals detailed above, and as such we will now produce a recommendation sheet for our customers to use about plant quarantine.

*Our recommendation will be that all plants from ANY supplier should be quarantined in Alkaline water for a minimum of 2 hours to 48 hours, then finally rinsed in tap water prior to addition to any tank with livestock present. Please note - we say a MINIMUM of 2 hours and suggest that 48 hours be better... don't forget to perform water changes when appropriate.*

Alkaline water can be easily made using caustic soda or hydrogen peroxide mixed with water until the pH reaches 8.5. Remember to wash your plants in tap water as a final preparation before they go in your tank.

Reference has been made from:
http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/ex ... n-ext.html
http://sitem.herts.ac.uk/aeru/iupac/100.htm
http://www.imidaclopridandtrees.com/mammalbirdfish.html

What has been specifically noticed is that

Trichlorofon is a particularly aggressive organophosphate pesticide. It is however can be detected in acidic water up to 526 days at 20C at pH5.0. That said – if alkaline water is used – pH8.5 then this product is 99% degraded within 2 hours.

Buprofezin is an insecticide – specifically an acaricide. It is not approved for use in the UK. The degradation half life is 50 days within soil and 16 days in water at pH7.0, 20C. This product specifically requires extended quarantine of at least 48 hours.

Imidacloprid is a systemic insecticide. It has a 3 hour half life in water pH neutral. It is known to be non toxic to fish, moderately toxic to crustaceans and highly toxic to invertebrates. The addition of this chemical to water reputedly degrades to CO2 as a side effect of the degradation in the presence of light.


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## dw1305

Hi all,
Well done Tony, that is absolutely brilliant and I don't think we need to look any further. 

TRICHLORFON <http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC33346>
Chlorophos insecticides are highly toxic organophosphate insecticides and cause damage to the nervous system ("anti-cholinesterase compounds"), so you would expect to see the shrimp "staggering" about before dying. They are non-systemic, so shouldn't end up in the plant.

BUPROFEZIN I don't know much about, but it is "Insect Growth Regulator", which means that it would stop crustaceans shedding their skins (it interrupts chitin synthesis), so it could cause death in the longer term.

However the one I would really worry about would be IMIDACLOPRID, this is a systemic, neonicotinoid insecticide and would remain in the plant for some time. Neonicotonoids are suspected of causing a lot of the decline of insect biodiversity in Europe and the USA, and a really not the sort of compound you would want anywhere near your shrimps.

IMIDACLOPRID has low toxicity to fish, but is highly toxic to crustaceans, in conc. as low as 1 ppb for Mysis shrimp. "_Products containing imidacloprid may be very toxic to aquatic invertebrates." "The half-life in water is much greater than 31 days at pH 5, 7 and 9"_. from Kidd & James (1991) _The Agrochemicals Handbook, Third Edition_. Royal Society of Chemistry Information Services, Cambridge, UK.

Most studies show that these neonicotinoid pesticides are extremely persistent. "_The solubility of imidacloprid in water is relatively high: 0.51 g/l, and its octanol-water partitioning coefficient is quite low: log Kow = 0.57 (Gupta et al., 2002). Imidacloprid is generally persistent in water, and not easily biodegradable (Tišler et al., 2009). Indeed, Overmyer et al. (2005) found no significant differences in imidacloprid concentration in water over a 48-hour experiment, and Roberts & Hutson (1999) reported that it is likely to remain in the water column in aquatic systems, and has an aerobic sediment and water DT50 of 30 to 162 days (time for 50% decline of the initial pesticide concentration, or half-life time). More details here: <http://igitur-archive.library.uu.nl/student-theses/2010-0722-200330/MSc Thesis Tessa van Dijk.pdf>_".

I couldn't find anything for residue in leaves in aquatic systems but Kreutzweiser _et al._ (2009) in "Imidacloprid in leaves from systemically treated trees may inhibit litter breakdown by non-target invertebrates". _Ecotoxicology and Environmental Safety_ *72*:4, pp 1053–1057 said:
*Abs.* _"Imidacloprid is a systemic insecticide that is used in trees to control several invasive, wood-boring insect pests in North America. Applications to deciduous trees result in foliar concentrations of imidacloprid that could pose a risk of harm to non-target decomposer invertebrates when autumn-shed leaves fall to forest floors or adjacent water bodies. ........ There was no significant preferential feeding on non-contaminated leaves in selection microcosms indicating that the invertebrates could not detect and avoid imidacloprid-containing leaves. Mass loss and area consumed of both imidacloprid-containing and natural leaves in selection microcosms were significantly less than in control microcosms, indicating a sub-lethal feeding inhibition effect from consumption of leaf material at realistic field concentrations of 18–30 µg/g fresh weight. Our results indicate that imidacloprid at realistic concentrations in leaves can inhibit leaf litter breakdown through adverse sub-lethal effects on decomposer invertebrates._"

cheers Darrel


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## George Farmer

Thanks, Tony and Darrel.

I will update the pinned threads accordingly.

Although it's tragic that hotweldfire lost his livestock, at least the consequent investigations have turned up what may have been the cause and appropriate steps can be taken to help prevent reoccurance.  So thanks again to hotweldfire for sharing his cautionary tale.

Cheers,
George


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## cheebs

Thanks Darrel

So reading this about IMIDACLOPRID in particular makes me think that I should never buy plants sourced from the farms in Singapore if I intend to keep shrimp in the same tank, now or potentially any time in the future if i value the wellbeing of my livestock.

By the way, I think its commendable that Tony is being so transparrent about this issue.


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## Frosties

Cheebs and all on the forum...

Now we have a known source of the contaminants that are on the plants we import here to the UK - I have decided that at PlantedTanks we are specifically going to cease trading at the end of February with the supplier who uses IMIDACLOPRID specifically. This will clearly reduce our stock lines of certain plants and will invariably cause issues in the longer term for supply of some of the crypts.

To combat this - we have already begun testing on a UK IV grown range of plants. We will report on these in the near future with photos etc. These plants will be grown by ourselves. We have sourced some of the more interesting crypts such as flamingo etc and these are in the first trial batch. We will be adding more plants in the near future. 

We will take the hit on the chemicals here at PlantedTanks and hopefully in the future will be able to provide 100% UK grown plants with ZERO pesticide or insecticides. 

Being transparent in this issue means that hopefully in the future - we will still be trading. I believe we work with our customers and supporters to benefit you all. I can only hope that the other companies who use the same suppliers we do will also follow suit.


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## hotweldfire

Tony, I have to say that I was far from happy about your original response to this issue and your first posts on this thread.What you've got going for you as a company is your ability to source some of the rarer varieties. That's why I've bought from you in the past, not the price. Given the risks we've discovered I would never buy your imported plants again. I have to point out that the secondary issue was the quality of the plants. Some of them were in a sorry state, especially the zosty which appeared to have been wrapped in newspaper by the grower so resembled straw.

However, I think your increasing transparency and change of strategy does you credit. With the increasing awareness of this issue (which we at least in part have George to thank for) I think what you're doing is the way to go. Being able to supply a line of rare and safe UK grown in vitro plants will put you in an enviable position to sell to a handful of people like me who are willing to pay a fair old bit for them. It may be a small market but it is a luxury one. 

I just hope you keep a sharp eye on the suppliers you continue to use as there will still be a large market out there who will not be aware of the danger of insecticides. I.e. I hope you do go through with your plans to warn people that the imported ones are not shrimp safe and what quarantine measures they have to use in order to make them so. Crucially I think you need to do this before people buy rather than just slipping a note in with the plants. Buyers need to make an informed decision about the costs versus the work they have to put in to make the plants safe. Many may decide they'd rather spend the extra few quid on in vitro if they are fully informed.


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## dw1305

Hi all,
I feel really sorry for every-one who has lost shrimps, but I don't think you can really blame the importers and re-sellers in the UK for selling plants that are potentially toxic. I think the problem lies with the fact that the growers are treating the plants with a cocktail of extremely toxic insecticides, some of which can potentially remain toxic in the plant for a long time period after export.  I don't think any one could have predicted this. 

Now we know the extent and nature of the problem I would applaud Tony for both finding out what the compounds are, and the decision he has made about the plants that "PlantedTanks" will stock in future.

cheers Darrel


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## Frosties

I have taken information from this thread and made it available on my webstore. I hope that others may do the same.

http://www.plantedtanks.co.uk/plants-an ... s-17-w.asp


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## hotweldfire

dw1305 said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> I feel really sorry for every-one who has lost shrimps, but I don't think you can really blame the importers and re-sellers in the UK for selling plants that are potentially toxic. I think the problem lies with the fact that the growers are treating the plants with a cocktail of extremely toxic insecticides, some of which can potentially remain toxic in the plant for a long time period after export.  I don't think any one could have predicted this.
> 
> Now we know the extent and nature of the problem I would applaud Tony for both finding out what the compounds are, and the decision he has made about the plants that "PlantedTanks" will stock in future.
> 
> cheers Darrel



I'm afraid I have to disagree Darrel. I think you'd be right if there had been no previous cause for concern however

- before Tony came on this thread to reveal where the plants had come from almost every single person had guessed it was his company. I think that tells a pretty compelling story

- by his own admission there have been previous losses

- how long did it take him to find out what his suppliers were treating the plants with? A week? Three days? You don't think he could have done this before a massive fuss was made about the issue on this thread? Seems to me perfectly reasonable to expect a reseller to have asked this question of a supplier before buying plants from them.

I don't want to get into a fight with him on this. My last post was a genuine attempt to draw a line under this and move on. My tanks are healthy again and I have shrimp breeding. I do really think he has done the right thing by taking on my advice and that of others here. However, he has to shoulder some of the blame for what happened. He has been slack in ensuring his plants are safe and is not guilt free.


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## BigTom

I don't wish to enter into witch hunting here, but I do have to agree with what HWF is saying... I alerted Tony to the issue with his plants nearly a year ago, after which he promised to carry out some tests and do some investigating, but it seems no action was taking until the dirty laundry was on display, so to speak.


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## Westyggx

Sorry to resurect but i needed a thread to say that i've had a similar wipe out, but i dont think its down to plants its down to a dead zebra snail that i did not remove.. has this almost certently upped my ammonia and bacteria in the tank? I only have one survivor and i cant find the others so i assume there all dead.


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## dw1305

Hi all,


> Sorry to resurect but i needed a thread to say that i've had a similar wipe out, but i dont think its down to plants its down to a dead zebra snail that i did not remove..


 Quite likely unfortunately, once the Zebra Nerite had died, the bacterial decomposition of its proteins would:

1. liberate ammonia (NH3), and 
2. cause a bacterial bloom.

As well as the direct toxicity of the ammonia (which may be pH dependent, NH3 is more toxic at higher pH than the ammonium ion NH4+), and the oxygen use by the increased bacterial bioload, you would also get oxygen depletion as more NH4+ entered biological filtration.  The number to make the equation balance are a bit strange, but

55NH4+ + 76 O2 + 109HCO3-  > C5H7O2N + 54NO2-+ 57H2O + 104H2CO3 and that NO2 (nitrite) is then converted to NO3 (nitrate): 400NO2- + NH4+ + 4H2CO3 + HCO3- + 195 O2 > C5H7O2N + 3H2O + 400 NO3-

If the water becomes oxygen depleted further deaths are inevitable, decomposition then leads to more ammonia which leads to a larger demand for oxygen and more fish/shrimp deaths etc until the water is totally de-oxygenated and everything dies. Low oxygen would have killed the fish/shrimps even if the ammonia didn't.

I'm not convinced that snails like Zebra Nerites are sustainable in most tanks long term, unless you have hard, high conductivity water and a calcium source (cuttle-bone etc) <http://www.planetinverts.com/zebra_nerite_snail.html>.

cheers Darrel


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## nayr88

Sad the hear mate 

Good bit of info there DW really indepth! What is cuttle bone? Is it something you can place in the tank? How does this effect shrimp?


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## Westyggx

Thanks Darrel I thought it may have been the cause. Gutted I had them since babies since August and just got them to reproduce some off spring.


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## dw1305

Hi all,


> What is cuttle bone? Is it something you can place in the tank? How does this effect shrimp?


It is a spongy mollusc shell, the internal "skeleton" of the Cuttle-fish (a Cephalopod Mollusc). You can buy them really cheaply, because people use them as a calcium source for Budgies and Canaries etc. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuttlebone>.

The Nerite would graze on it and get calcium, but because the "bone" is both soft and the aragonite form of calcium carbonate it will raise dKH. 

If you had a shrimp which needed soft water it is probably incompatible with the Zebra Nerite long term.

I can keep MTS in all my tanks, but they show a lot of shell attrition in the older shell whorls. Ramshorns just about hang on in some of the tanks, but have fragile white shells, and all the other snails I've tried (like Assassin Snails), didn't last at all. 

cheers Darrel


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## Radik

The only way to counteract this is to have plenty of shrimp who will pick up on dead snail later on. As Darrel said, nerites are worst for any CRS tank. Ramshorn, assasins are not happy in CRS water. Although assasins will last quite long. Trumpets are probably one of best they even breed in CRS water. Pest snails have no problem multiply as usual.


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## Westyggx

Radik said:
			
		

> The only way to counteract this is to have plenty of shrimp who will pick up on dead snail later on. As Darrel said, nerites are worst for any CRS tank. Ramshorn, assasins are not happy in CRS water. Although assasins will last quite long. Trumpets are probably one of best they even breed in CRS water. Pest snails have no problem multiply as usual.



I have plenty of Cherry shrimp probably 50+ as well as CRS and they ate the snail remains. It was probably not eaten fast enough though?


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## Radik

CRS is more sensitive than cherry they are pond shrimp vs fresh stream shrimp.


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## dw1305

Hi all,


> I have plenty of Cherry shrimp probably 50+ as well as CRS and they ate the snail remains. It was probably not eaten fast enough though?


It may not matter whether the shrimps ate the dead Nerite or not. Whilst them eating it was a preferable action in terms of water quality, if you were close to the carrying capacity of the tank, even the increased NH3 production from the gills of the shrimp (NH3 will diffuse out along its concentration gradient with the water continually from the shrimps gills, in exactly the same way it would from a fishes) caused by the break-down of the extra protein may have been enough to compromise water quality (either by lower oxygen levels or toxic NH3 levels) and  start the high NH3 > low O2 cycle > shrimp death > high NH3 > low O2.... cycle.

This is partially why I like a lot of floating plants (or emergent plants), because floating plants like _Limnobium_, or emergents like _Cyperus_, have access to aerial CO2 (and O2) they can respond to a sudden increase in nitrogen levels by increasing growth. This gives you a lot of "spare" filtration capacity in case of accident. The same applies to keeping O2 levels high, filtration systems which maximise gas exchange and dissolved O2 (like "wet and dry" trickle filters) gives you extra biological filtration capacity when you need it.  

Biological filtration is really all about oxygen, this is why aquatic biologists look at the Biochemical Oxygen Demand (BOD) as the most important measure of water pollution. Rapidly growing plants reduce the BOD by removing NH3 and NO2 before they enter microbial nitrification, and by supplying oxygen during photosynthesis, and if you can supply enough oxygen even sudden large increases in BOD (like a undiscovered death) need not be fatal for the other tank inhabitants.

I think this one should be available <*Aquatic phytoremediation: novel insights in tropical and subtropical regions*> <http://195.37.231.82/publications/pac/pdf/2010/pdf/8201x0027.pdf>

cheers Darrel


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