# Rio 180 replacement



## tko187 (16 Jul 2008)

Hi guys, im thinking of removing my internal filter, and adding an external with a spraybar, i also have a hydor koralia powerhead just now, i take it i wouldnt need this if i added a new filter with spray bar? Also i am aware i will need to run the internal with the new external to build up bacteria in the new one, any ideas on how long this would take?

Oh recommendations on a filter thats up to the job would be good!!   Thanks.


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## ceg4048 (16 Jul 2008)

Hi,
    Aim for any filter with a rating of 1800 LPH or thereabouts. Eheims are expensive but refined. Fluvals are efficient but slightly louder, Tetratec are less expensive but perhaps not the cleverest of designs. A canister filter is just a bucket with a pump on it and everyone has a different opinion based on their experiences and on the ergonomics of the particular design, so there is no point in starting a filter flame war.

It normally takes a few weeks to cycle the filter so just run them both for a month or so just to be sure, then remove the old filter. Don't bin your powerhead just yet. If you get a weaker filter or poor distribution you might still need it.

Cheers,


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## tko187 (16 Jul 2008)

Thanks, i just noticed what you meant by a filter flame war!!!!  Dont want to fuel the fire, so think this is buried!! Cheers clive.


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## tko187 (16 Jul 2008)

Sorry to start this off again, ive just bought a fluval 305 which i got for Â£40, i dont know anything about this filter, i just bought it as it was cheaper than normal price due to my LFS closing down. I will look around for details, but just wondering if anyone has any experience with this filter and if it would be ok to do the job? Was gonna buy the FX5 but the guy in the shop advised it was too big for my tank (180ltr) and would just create a whirlwind. Any input would be good.

The details are as follows

aquarium capacity 300ltrs
pump output 1000ltrs

Any help would be good!!


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## Tom (16 Jul 2008)

The 305 should be fine. I'm using a 205 on the same tank and it is good enough, but the 305 would be better. Good price you got on that! 

Tom


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## tko187 (16 Jul 2008)

Tom said:
			
		

> The 305 should be fine. I'm using a 205 on the same tank and it is good enough, but the 305 would be better. Good price you got on that!
> 
> Tom



Thanks, yup definitely  a good price, thats why i snapped it up, its cheaper than any website price.  He still has a lot of stock that hes getting rid of, Had a few FX5's but it was two big for my compartment.

One more question, in the setup dvd it says regarding cleaning,when its done to wash the media under tap water, i thought that we were only supposed to clean filter media in tank water? can someone confirm. Thanks.


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## Garuf (16 Jul 2008)

Yeah, tank water, tap water will kill the bacteria we need for our filtration to be effective.


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## spaldingaquatics (16 Jul 2008)

tko187 said:
			
		

> One more question, in the setup dvd it says regarding cleaning,when its done to wash the media under tap water, i thought that we were only supposed to clean filter media in tank water? can someone confirm. Thanks.



We know that the answer is noooooooooooo tap water, but I must admit I was suprised to sit down and watch a proffesional Hagen presentation telling me to kill my vital bacteria every time I maintain my filters, does anyone know WHY? Hagen have instructed thousands of people to do this? :?

Edit: If anyone hasn't seen the DVD it does state to use tap water on maintanence not just initial rinsing


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## tko187 (16 Jul 2008)

[/quote]We know that the answer is noooooooooooo tap water, but I must admit I was suprised to sit down and watch a proffesional Hagen presentation telling me to kill my vital bacteria every time I maintain my filters, does anyone know WHY? Hagen have instructed thousands of people to do this? :?

Edit: If anyone hasn't seen the DVD it does state to use tap water on maintanence not just initial rinsing[/quote]

I was dumbfounded :!: I had to rewind it a couple of times to see if i missed something somewhere, but no, they do advise to do all the cleaning under tap water. So i take it you just use aquarium water whatever part you are cleaning of the filter even the canister and the media? Thanks.


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## spaldingaquatics (16 Jul 2008)

Always tank water, the chlorine and other heavy metals in tap water kill bacteria


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## ceg4048 (16 Jul 2008)

Guys, time for a reality check. We are talking about germs here. How difficult is it to eradicate germs from your countertop or toilet or kitchen floor? Companies get rich selling us detergents and Detol and bleach and antibacterial soap galore, and we still can't eradicate them. Entire continents get their human population wiped out and the course of history is altered because of the inability to kill some dumb germ. Wash your tank and filter and sundries with tap water and forget about it, everything will be fine. Make your life easier, not more complicated.

Cheers,


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## tko187 (16 Jul 2008)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Guys, time for a reality check. We are talking about germs here. How difficult is it to eradicate germs from your countertop or toilet or kitchen floor? Companies get rich selling us detergents and Detol and bleach and antibacterial soap galore, and we still can't eradicate them. Entire continents get their human population wiped out and the course of history is altered because of the inability to kill some dumb germ. Wash your tank and filter and sundries with tap water and forget about it, everything will be fine. Make your life easier, not more complicated.
> 
> Cheers,



Now im really confused, ive always been told use tank water, Clive do you use tapwater to clean? Ive had a look through the filters instruction book and noticed it says something different....."rinse biological media with tank water only, never tap water"

So what is all the creating the bacteria in the first place, wouldnt cleaning with water take away all bacteria? Why do i really need to wait for the filters bacterias to build up with my internal still going?? Please help??


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## spaldingaquatics (16 Jul 2008)

Don't agree clive, 

why in that case do we use chlorine removers in our water changes if tap water does not harm bacteria?

I've made the mistake of rinsing with tap water many years ago, and it did make a difference, I never did it again.


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## ceg4048 (16 Jul 2008)

tko,
      The standard procedure for the past 100 years has been to use tank water because it's assumed that since tank water has bacteria you will keep the bacteria colony intact as the tank water pours over the filter media. It's also assumed that tap water chlorination kills the colony. The thing is though that bacteria multiply with astonishing speed. Have you ever seen videos of reproducing bacteria? They split geometrically so that one becomes two which then becomes 4, then 8 and so on. There are billions or even trillions of bacteria and they populate every cubic millimetre of the tank, glass, water and submerged surfaces including substrate, not to mention the inside and outside of the filter media. So even if you wash away or kill a few billion, in no time flat the population is back up to original levels.

When you are starting up a tank from scratch this is a different story. You are starting with a population of virtually zero so the geometric multiplication sequence takes a few weeks to go from virtually zero to trillions of trillions. Can you see the difference? This is why it's a good idea when starting a tank to put mulm and organic matter in the new substrate and to "seed" the new filter with water or mulm from another filter to get the population level up a bit faster. Once it's up and running though there is nothing to worry about because the basic population is already very high.

When you install your new filter the filter media will be devoid of bacteria initially, but the tank water is populated, so as it enters the new filter the bacteria start adhering to the surface of the media. It takes a while for this colony to build up on the surfaces inside the filter.

The reason we use chlorine removers is so that we don't kill our fish. When you have a tragedy with a tank it's very easy to correlate things that you did with the tragedy. Biochemistry has so many variables that there are a lot of false conclusions drawn on the basis of apparently correlated events. The classic case of mis-correlation is the one of nitrate and algae, yet we here know (hopefully) that there is no correlation. Optical illusions abound because of the number of variables.

I wash everything with tap water using my garden hose because everything I have is big and there is no way I'll be faffing about with buckets of tank water to gently wash this or to carefully rinse that. I don't have any problems. There are more important things to worry about, like CO2 injection rates and dosing schedules and lighting, and scaping. If you turn your hobby into a venture of rocket science you are less likely to keep it up because it becomes tedious. Concentrate your energy on the tough issues and cut corners on the easy stuff.

Hope this makes sense mate.

Cheers,


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## tko187 (16 Jul 2008)

Thanks Clive, it would make life a lot more easier, i could just spray away with my garden hose just like you said, i remember long ago when i first had tanks (nearly 10 yrs ago), i used to do mad cleanup sessions and add my fish back, and cant remember any dying, also same with the filter. I used to do whole tank water changes and rescapes and filter cleans then put fish back in. its just now ive read about this and heard about people losing their bacteria. Back then i wasnt aware of this and just did what i pleased as i didint have internet then so not much research either.

Anyway so do you think i should do this?


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## spaldingaquatics (16 Jul 2008)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> There are billions or even trillions of bacteria and they populate every cubic millimetre of the tank, glass, water and submerged surfaces including substrate, not to mention the inside and outside of the filter media. So even if you wash away or kill a few billion, in no time flat the population is back up to original levels.



Sorry clive, I was just refering to the fact that washing with tap water does kill bacteria on filter media, which from the above I asume it does? but just not in enough quantities to cause major damage, which I agree with. I understand that larger equipment may need to be cleaned with tap water from a hose and this will not ruin a tank. But TKO was talking about starting a new filter, so surely if you admit that tap water does kill 'some' bacteria then washing with tank water and not killing any is better than killing some?


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## tko187 (16 Jul 2008)

Ok i feel something brewing here!!!


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## spaldingaquatics (16 Jul 2008)

no no no   

I agree with clive on the point that a filter media can't be destroyed by washing with tap water.

my point was just that tap water does kill bacteria even if it's only a small amount and 'none' is better than 'some'


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## ceg4048 (17 Jul 2008)

spaldingaquatics said:
			
		

> Sorry clive, I was just refering to the fact that washing with tap water does kill bacteria on filter media, which from the above I asume it does? but just not in enough quantities to cause major damage, which I agree with. I understand that larger equipment may need to be cleaned with tap water from a hose and this will not ruin a tank. But TKO was talking about starting a new filter, so surely if you admit that tap water does kill 'some' bacteria then washing with tank water and not killing any is better than killing some?



Yeah, the garden hose washes some away and maybe weaker individuals succoumb to chlorination, and so sure, not killing any is better than killing some, but the issue is energy expenditure versus risk. As I mentioned, the tank water washing scenario is in the category of "major drag supreme" and it's benefits may be purely academic. On the other hand you save a lot of time with the garden hose (especially if you have a spray handle   ) and there is very little risk, so it's about pragmatism. If your tank is well managed so that CO2 injection is optimal and if your dosing is on par then the aquarium environmental conditions facilitate even more rapid re-population of the bacterial colonies within the tank and filter.

Cheers,


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## Ed Seeley (20 Jul 2008)

To further agree with Clive's points the bacteria in filters do not exist as individuals sitting on the media and other surfaces but, when established, are part of a biofilm which is a very resilient film which the bacteria are enmeshed inside and move around.  It is very hard to kill bacteria living in this, especially the deeper parts of it.

Washing a filter under chlorinated tap water will kill some bactera (as will washing in tank water as some will be removed, just not as many) but an established filter will bounce back very rapidly.  I regularly wash filter media from my tanks at school under the tap as it is so much easier for me there to do that and I never have much time to maintain them.  Never lost a fish or even had any problems that I could blame on that action.


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## tko187 (20 Jul 2008)

Thanks guys, il maybe stop "faffing about" as Clive says, with my tank water. It makes life a lot more easier!


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