# Lightning questions for a new setup!



## Fred13 (8 Dec 2017)

Hello,

I am planning to start a new tank 100 x 50 x 50 cm .

My substrate will be tropica planted growth with fine sand-gravel and i will inject co2 through inline diffuser from a  2kg bottle with a double regulator and an integrated solenoid. My filter would be Eheim professional 4+ 600.

I have 2 choices of lightning.
First , is 2 x 39 T5 HO, which equals to about 1,2w/g and about 19 loumens/liter (with arcadia bulbs) which seems low.

And second is a 4x39 T5 HO system with a combination of jbl and arcadia bulbs , with about 2,3-2,4w/g and 40lumens/liter

I am going to grow medium to advanced plants (such us hemianthus and rotala mancrada).

For me my best choice is the second but i would i like to have some feedback from you.

Finally, i would like to tell me what my photoperiod should be for the first month? Are 5 hours per day enough ?

Thank you very much!


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## foxfish (8 Dec 2017)

You could buy the 4 bulb unit but make sure you can switch to 2 bulbs because that is probably all you will need.
I normally start with 6 hours a day but the lighting is the easy bit... just keep it low... concentrate of getting enough C02 to the plants.
My own method is to use a dry start with the plants for 4-6 weeks then get a real one point PH drop with 6 hours of light for anther 4-6 weeks.
By then you should have sorted out the flow & Co2 levels, then get some fish.... easy!


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## Fred13 (8 Dec 2017)

foxfish said:


> You could buy the 4 bulb unit but make sure you can switch to 2 bulbs because that is probably all you will need.
> I normally start with 6 hours a day but the lighting is the easy bit... just keep it low... concentrate of getting enough C02 to the plants.
> My own method is to use a dry start with the plants for 4-6 weeks then get a real one point PH drop with 6 hours of light for anther 4-6 weeks.
> By then you should have sorted out the flow & Co2 levels, then get some fish.... easy!



Thank you so much!
Unfortunately i do not have the option to switch off any bulb. If i take the double bulb system both should be on , same for the four bulb.
It seems that 4 bulbs are more than enough but 2 bulbs are not even close to ''medium'' specs. But i am talking only for numbers..
Should i probably go for 5 hours per day to avoid any issues of high lightning?

As for co2 yes, i have small previous experience with it. I aim to reach 25-30ppm and keep it there. I used to have a 24hours co2 non-stop running but i found out that after several days and before the water change i had lots of co2 in the water even with a very good surface agitation.
Now , i am thinking of using a solenoid which it opens 3 hours before lights and close with them. Does this sounds good to you?

I will follow tropicas 90 days routine schedule with water changes etc etc..This is something i never tried before and i want to give it a go.

Thank you for your time!


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## Bart Hazes (9 Dec 2017)

Have you considered LED lighting, either commercial or homemade. The latter is much less costly than even T5, can give more output than the T5 HO, and gives more light per watt. You can also tune the light output if you get an adjustable current power supply. The commercial LEDs may be worth the extra cost if you want the build in timer, dimming, colours, and general sleeker and better build look. I use commercial for my living room tanks and DIY for my tank racks.


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## Zeus. (9 Dec 2017)

NEW CHIHIROS A-SERIES PLUS AQUATIC AQUARIUM SUPER LED LAMP  -A901 cost £120 and dimmable out of box

Think you would be better off with two if going high tech

PAR readings *ADA | WASMAS | ZETLIGHT | TWINSTAR | CHIHIROS | LED PAR DATA *


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## Fred13 (10 Dec 2017)

Is this chichiros a901 provides 8200 lumen? 

Is this fine for me or i need 2?


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## Zeus. (10 Dec 2017)

well the specs are from the website for that model

A901 Plus :


Lamp dimension : W890 x D100 x H90mm
Luminous Flux: 14200lm.
Power consumption: 95W
LED: white, 285pcs.
For 90~110cm long tank.

So 70% more


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## Fred13 (10 Dec 2017)

Zeus. said:


> well the specs are from the website for that model
> 
> A901 Plus :
> 
> ...



Is luminous flux lumens ???
In their website it says that we dont recommend a dimmer for 901plus unit because of its size and it will get hot. 
So if its 14200 lumens without dimmer i will probably have huge algae party!


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## Fred13 (10 Dec 2017)

If i go with T5 HO , which one? 2x39 w or 4x39 w?

250 liters , medium to advance plants.


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## ceg4048 (11 Dec 2017)

The OP is strongly advised to stick with a 2 bulb T5 and to hone his plant growing skills using minimal lighting. Any Tropica plant can be grown using even a couple of T8 bulbs.
There are no plants that "require" high light. There are only plants that require high CO2.
Please review a recent similar thread on the subject: https://ukaps.org/forum/threads/sug...edium-and-high-on-200litre-fluval-roma.51468/

Also, Lumens do not grow plants. Plants respond to the parameter called Photosynthetically Active Radiation, or PAR for short. Do a search on the forum using this phrase for more information.

Here is a common summary chart we use as a guide:
The idea here, in the beginning, is to stay below the yellow region and if possible to stay below the pink area, into the blue zone.
This is one of the main techniques for avoiding algal blooms, especially at tank startup.
As you can see, the T5HO curve is in the yellow zone at 15 inches from the bulb surface. Of course the bulb will be located several inches from the water and so the PAR will be lower. The idea is to have about 40 PAR at the substrate. As you can see, it is very easy to violate this principle, even with two bulbs.

If you purchase a 4 bulb unit, ensure that each pair has their own ballast, so that you can deactivate two bulbs in the beginning. As your CO2 skill improve you will be able to achieve good growth rates without incurring algae, however, this is a long and winding road. You are advised to concentrate most of your efforts in achieving good flow, good distribution and good gas dissolution while using as little light as possible.




 


Cheers,


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## Fred13 (11 Dec 2017)

ceg4048 said:


> The OP is strongly advised to stick with a 2 bulb T5 and to hone his plant growing skills using minimal lighting. Any Tropica plant can be grown using even a couple of T8 bulbs.
> There are no plants that "require" high light. There are only plants that require high CO2.
> Please review a recent similar thread on the subject: https://ukaps.org/forum/threads/sug...edium-and-high-on-200litre-fluval-roma.51468/
> 
> ...



Couldn't be more helpful Ceg, thank you very much!

So if my distance from the substrate is about 23 inches , a double T5 HO setup will give me a PAR of about 100 micromols Single bulb PAR is about 50. A double T5 HO setup is in a high lightning range.  If i am understanding this well..

Unfortunately this is hagens-fluval fixture which comes with good reflectors but as i remember you must use all bulbs for it to work.

So.. shall i purchase the 2x39 or the 4x39 and fade somehow the 2 bulbs? Is there any way to cover the 2 bulbs or reduce their intensity at least for the first month in order to have the advantage of using them afterwards? Maybe covering them with a black electrical tape from edge to edge? I dont if this works i am just saying. Window screen?


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## Edvet (11 Dec 2017)

Watch with temperature: T5's get warm-hot.


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## Fred13 (11 Dec 2017)

Edvet said:


> Watch with temperature: T5's get warm-hot.



Yes , i know they are quite hot.

So if i go with 4 t5 ho is the window screen a good option for the first month? After, i can remove it and see how things go.


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## Fred13 (11 Dec 2017)

Can you please post here a link from amazon with a window screen that will fit my needs? So i can dim the light for the beginning? 

Thank you!


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## foxfish (11 Dec 2017)

Hi Fred, Yes of course you can use lots of light, there are no planted tank police around here.
 However you have been advised not to, both myself and Ceg, have told you that you will not need 4 bulbs to get obtain good strong growth... you 'do' need very good C02 distribution.
Yes you can obscure two bulbs by tuning the reflectors around or covering the bulbs somehow although that might be a waste of money but, would work!
You could run the two lights for two or three months and then experiment with four bulbs just to see for yourself.
On this forum there are thousands & thousands of post about people using to much light & getting into problems with algae, perhaps you should read a few of them.
It is obvious  you want to get the four bulb unit so just get it  it is Christmas. 

Here is a tank l set up with two T5s (700 x 450 x 450) you can see some of the plants growing downwards away from the light & some growing in the shade under the log.


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## Fred13 (11 Dec 2017)

foxfish said:


> Hi Fred, Yes of course you can use lots of light, there are no planted tank police around here.
> However you have been advised not to, both myself and Ceg, have told you that you will not need 4 bulbs to get obtain good strong growth... you 'do' need very good C02 distribution.
> Yes you can obscure two bulbs by tuning the reflectors around or covering the bulbs somehow although that might be a waste of money but, would work!
> You could run the two lights for two or three months and then experiment with four bulbs just to see for yourself.
> ...


I understand your points but i am little bit confused..

2x39 watts in 250 liters is about 0,3watt/liter which seems so low to grow cuba or rotala mancrada and other similar species. I know that this is and old fashion method to calculate light but i am getting more and more confused because 0,3w used to be Low lightning not even medium.

And if i count it with lumen is 18 loumen/liter which is also low lightning.

I dont have any problem going with 2 bulbs , i really dont want an algae problem. In my last setup i had a new tank syndrome with a filamentous algae which lasts until i gave up after hundreds of efforts. My speculation now is that if 2x39 t5 are not enough there is no comeback. I will have to throw fixture away and buy again...

Thank you for your time and your precious advises.


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## foxfish (11 Dec 2017)

Hi Fred, it seems like you are waiting for someone to come along and recommend the four bulbs?
There are most definitely some folk who use mega watts very successfully, four or even six bulbs are possible!
However these people tend to be very experienced & have total understanding about how to match the C02 with the amount of light. So yes it is possible to have bright lighting & very healthy plants but it takes away any leeway based around maintenance & perfect C02.
Have you searched for a switchable 4 bulb unit?


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## ian_m (11 Dec 2017)

4 tubes 92cm fitting here. Has two plugs so you can have 2 or 4 tubes on at a time.
https://www.iquaticsonline.co.uk/un...i-universal-4-tube-92cm.html?___store=default

And reflectors.
https://www.iquaticsonline.co.uk/reflectors/t5-reflectors.html

Even with two tubes (and reflectors) these are very bright and will quickly melt plants and grow algae unless you are 100% spot on with your CO2 whilst lights are on.

It took me months and months before I cracked CO2 delivery and distribution (hint 5200 litre/hour flow rate in 180litres !!) without melting and algae with 4 tubes.


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## Fred13 (11 Dec 2017)

So..all of you telling me that my best option is the 2 bulbs! Ok i will go for the 2x39 t5 Ho!

Btw let me inform you about my plants list.

Hc cuba
pogostemon helferi
ranunculus inundatus
alternanthera reinecki mini
rotala mancrada
proserpinaca palustris cuba
fissidens fontanus
riccardia moss
rotala bonsai
several other stems not much difficult

Those are for sure in my list! Depending these and your experience i want a clear yes or no if they thrive under 2 T5 HO in 65 gallons. Whatever you tell me i ll do. I respect and i believe in your experience much more than my thoughts.

As for filter i ll go with an eheim 4+ 600
for co2 is pressurized with a ph controller through a reactor.


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## foxfish (11 Dec 2017)

Hi Fred, I can see you are worried abut not having enough light but what we are trying to tell you is that having too much light will cause you far more problems than having to little light.

Without doubt, getting enough C02 enriched water amongst all the plants & keeping everything clean is what really matters.

However if you feel you would like to try 4 tubes, then you should get them & see how it goes.

If you are confident you wont experience the same problems you had with your last tank & are prepared to carry out daily maintenance, get really good flow, get just the right amount of C02 without killing your fish... then of course you must go with your feeling & get the 4 bub unit.

If you find problems with algae then you will have to deal with the problem by upping your maintenance, carry out huge water changes, add floating plants or find another way to reduce the light.
We all love keeping plants & helping people out with their dream tank, if it works out we well, we will give you praise & if you get problems we will still be here to help you out.


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## Konsa (11 Dec 2017)

Hi Fred
I will second what ceg 4048 and foxfish have advised U.
If so worried about light intensity  get the 4 bulb unit and simply disconnect 2 of the bulbs if not able to run them separately  in begging while plants grow in. U can wrap tin foil strips on the bulbs if U need to dim them at any point too. 
As for your plant list of so called difficult plants.
I have grown hc for about 3 months  in small nano with easycarbo and 6w Aquanano  led wich is very low light.Was doing ok till I put new led light over it which was considerably brighter and then melted away completely for about a month. 
I keep Fissidens and Riccardia in my low techs some of them in complete shade.Still doing good and growing slowly.
Pogostemon and AR mini kept in high tech 72l with 39w pll lamp over them with success as soon as I went up on light55w pll lamp they both struggled and slowly melted away completely .
In almost all of my tanks I have kept the light increase has never done me any good.U really should worry about CO2, flow and distribution along with good fertiliser regime and good tank husbandry .
The rest of your plants on the list havent kept so can comment on them.
Regards Konsa


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## Fred13 (11 Dec 2017)

I really cant decide...
Sorry i know that you are getting tired now because of my speculations.  I will have stable co2. I aim to afford a good Ph Controller.  i ll have good flow and fertilization. I am not that amateur in co2 tanks.I can reach 25-30ppm and stay there.

I really dont know what to choose.
I will go probably go for the quad fixture and dim the lights with a screen or foil strips for the first month or so..

This fixture is fluval Quad t5 ho . It says it has high polished reflectors. i paste you a link to have a look.
http://www.fluvalaquatics.com/us/pr...ple-fluorescent-lighting-system/#.Wi7AMVVl-Uk

I want to use arcadia freshwater pro and plant pro bulbs.
2 +2.
Freshwater pro is 3250 lumen each
Plant pro is 1950 lumen each.

Thank you and sorry again for reposting whole day. I still have several days to think of it...


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## ian_m (11 Dec 2017)

A pH controller is the first step to having something else to blame for poor CO2. A pH controller doesn't help get decent diffusion and distribution, in fact will probably lead to plant melting and algae farming far quicker than than if controlling CO2 manually. 

So no to pH controller.


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## Edvet (11 Dec 2017)

Fred13 said:


> I aim to afford a good Ph Controller.


You don't want a stable pH, neither do the fish. You'll want sufficient CO2, for that you will have to create a sufficient pH drop by getting plenty CO2 in the water column.


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## Fred13 (11 Dec 2017)

ian_m said:


> A pH controller is the first step to having something else to blame for poor CO2. A pH controller doesn't help get decent diffusion and distribution, in fact will probably lead to plant melting and algae farming far quicker than than if controlling CO2 manually.
> 
> So no to pH controller.





Edvet said:


> You don't want a stable pH, neither do the fish. You'll want sufficient CO2, for that you will have to create a sufficient pH drop by getting plenty CO2 in the water column.



Ian, the ph controller stabilizes the ph in order to achieve maximum co2 into the tank relying on the well known co2-kh-ph chart. The diffusion and the distribution is another story i think.
As for distribution at this setup i will use an external reactor via the filter outlet. It is also aesthetic reasons because i dont like micro bubbles and i also believe that 1250 l/h can distribute it really well into 250liters. I always go with drop checkers and i always still measure the water. I am not experienced but i had zero plants melt at the past. Why the ph controller will lead to algae problems? I mean , distribution , diffusion and ph controller are 3 totally different things.


Edvert i never used a ph controller at the past. If i go now it would be my first time. As far as i understand i need to calculate my kh and then set my ph to the optimum level to achieve maximum and acceptable co2 into tank. Am i right?

As for light i am more and more closer to stick with the 2 bulbs. I see that you guys are so sure about the results and to be honest i should follow your rules. You have many years in hobby and i am into it only 2. Something i want you to consider is that my tank will be 19,6 inches wide (50cms). Do the 2 bulb fixture can spread light well?


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## Zeus. (11 Dec 2017)

I have a pH controler had it 12months, waste of money imo. Just get cheap pH pen to help you set the bps rates and pre light CO2 on time.

A pH controler will have a cheapo pH probe, which will fluctuate and need recalibrating,

PH probe doesn't accept for changing kH of tank form WC day till next WC. Yes KH and pH of tank change from WC Day. Dependant on your hardscape material.

So constant rate better if it's done right.

After 50% WC the baseline pH of my tank is 0.5pH higher than rest of week pre CO2 on time. Yes I do run an airstone at night all night so 16hrs.

Extra cost of pH controler would of refilled my 6Kg CO2 cylinders Six times.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


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## Fred13 (11 Dec 2017)

Zeus. said:


> I have a pH controler had it 12months, waste of money imo. Just get cheap pH pen to help you set the bps rates and pre light CO2 on time.
> 
> A pH controler will have a cheapo pH probe, which will fluctuate and need recalibrating,
> 
> ...



Can you please tell me what ph controller are you using? I found dennerle ph controller to be pretty solid and stable.

Thing for me is that i dont want to go for 24/7 co2 as i used to do. I want to shut it off at night. This will cause an increasing at ph for probably 1 point. I want to avoid this for the fishes. Many say that those ph upside downs are acceptable but i really dont want to. I aim to high co2 levels , with constant high o2 levels by surface agitation and constant ph waters. 

I cant understand why a good ph controller, precise , that can put you to the point you want to be is useless. We have dropcheckers , we have liquid tests , it isnt just a ph controller alone without supervision.


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## ian_m (11 Dec 2017)

Fred13 said:


> I cant understand why a good ph controller, precise , that can put you to the point you want to be is useless. We have dropcheckers , we have liquid tests , it isnt just a ph controller alone without supervision.


A pH controller measures absolute pH levels not pH change as would be required to observe a 1 pH drop giving approximately 30ppm CO2. As your pH will vary as the tank water "gets dirty" & ages, as well as if you have just done a water change, you will need to set your pH controller every day to ensure you get the one pH drop  at lights on.

I would say from observing here, most people with pH controllers end up ditching them as they lead to incorrect CO2 levels and associated plant melting and algae blooms.  

Of course some people use them as a indicating device to back up their drop checker.

Some people use them as emergency CO2 cut off if their CO2 levels get too high, though if doing CO2 properly too high doesn't happen.

Remember pH probes need calibrating possibly monthly and only last about a year before needing replacement.

pH probes also suffer from interference as the signal levels are very small in order of millivolts. Many people experience different pH readings using pH controllers in differing locations in the tank, due to electrical interference. Easily checked as when they unplugged all the electrics pH reading were the same all over the tank.

You would be better spending your effort of getting CO2 levels correct using a simple needle valve, bubble counter, CO2 injection device and CO2 water flow(s) rather than complicating things with some bit of tech that in the end really just makes things worse.

See here for how CO2 varies with time using just continuous inject rate.
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/co2-concentration-versus-time-the-maths.51423/


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## Fred13 (11 Dec 2017)

Thank you guys..

So 2 decisions taken already. I will stick with the dual t5 HO and not the QUAD. I believe that i will come back and thank you for this . And second i wont take the ph controller and spend around 200 euros. I will buy a good regulator, solenoid a good reactor and i will focus on flow and diffusion spread. Such as i did at the past. All the research i v done those days prove that co2 is the most important factor and not the light. As for lights i found out from you and some reading , that a 40 par can grow hemianthus and other carpets. It is also adequate for red plants , alternantheras and others. So the dual fixture of t5 HO provide for me about 100 par at 20 inches? So its still high lightning..I think i am getting into this philosophy slowly. Fluval says its high polished reflectors so i guess its on the good reflectors side. My only last question for this is if the double system can handle 50 cms wide aquarium. I mean the spread.

Finally, i want to thank you for opening my eyes and saving me tons of money since i was so hot into taking a ph controller.
You probably saved me from an algae nightmare also.

In my last setup which i dont have photos now I had a 22 gallon tank with pressurized co2 and 3 x 24 W T5 HO fixture on it. hahah after our debate here i understand why i faced my worst algae issue ever. A filamentous algae that i was cleaning for about 5 months and keep returning back the next morning sometimes even worse.
Everything was so fast , i mean i had a full carpet in about 2-3 weeks max?! insane.. I got tired also of trimming which isnt always nice.
2 weeks after the setup the filamentous arrived and it was there till i shut down the tank.
It may was the ammonia leaching from the substrate? a new tank syndrome? But after the lightning debate here i see that 24x3 t5 ho in  86 liters of water was suicide..


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## Edvet (12 Dec 2017)




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## Fred13 (12 Dec 2017)

I still have some days to think about it and i am also doing a research on leds. I have totally zero experience on this.

I v seen that some of you suggested me chichiros led series.
It has so many models. For 100 x 50 x 50 cms which model fits my needs? And are we talking about 1 or 2 bars? I dont understand how their power translated into tank


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## Fred13 (12 Dec 2017)

hello friends,

i see those chichiros led. great value but what is that spectrum ?
i saw a picture and it looks so unnatural .
different shades of green are the same..


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## Konsa (12 Dec 2017)

Hi Fred
Im not a chichiros led user but I have came across that the colour temperature  is approx 8000k.
With the rgb U will get more natural looks.
Plants dont care about spectrum.Just go for whatever is pleasing for U.
Regards Konsa


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## Fred13 (13 Dec 2017)

Hello friends,

I finally bought the 2x39 T5 HO fixture mostly because i want to combine a spectrum that pleases my eyes. Its the Fluval t5 HO fixture.
But..
I am again confused..

I found a chart showing 2x39 hagen glo fixture having a little bit more than 40 par at 20 inches. I believe hagen its the same as fluval . Fluval just put its brand on it.
This chart is so different than others charts with t5 HO bulbs.The other charts show a par of about 40 for 1 bulb not 2.
And the reflector is higly polished not bad.
Whats wrong?
If its 40 par i cant probably grow my selected plans.

Shall i return it and go for the 4 bulbs?

I am attaching you few charts. One chart is only a hagen chart. 

PS. I will use arcadia freshwater pro and plant pro 

Explain me please..

Thank you


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## Fred13 (13 Dec 2017)

Edited. 

I found this below ... It is like the answer goes to me.

''Did anyone ever check out the Aquael Leddy Tube 8000K? It looks interesting and I'm considering the 16W, but I can't find any information about PAR.

I need some more light for my 250l tank to supplement the 2xHagen Glo 39W, but I can't decide wether to buy another one or put in LED.

Wow! You must want really high light! A two bulb Hagen Glo light should be enough to grow most any plants. That size tank, with two 39 watt T5HO bulbs is sold as a reef tank, and reef tanks use a lot more light than planted tanks.

Hoppy
Hoppy is offline


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## ceg4048 (13 Dec 2017)

Hello,
         I think you should just stick with what you have purchased and carry on. You can grow any plant you want with 2 T5 bulbs. You are just wasting time and energy worrying about how much light you have.

Your energy would be much better spent worrying about your flow/distribution and CO2 technique because that will be your biggest problem. If your plants fail it will be as result of lack of attention to these factors, which are 100X more important than the amount of light, and I guarantee that the more light you have, the more problems you will have.

Cheers,


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## Fred13 (14 Dec 2017)

ceg4048 said:


> Hello,
> I think you should just stick with what you have purchased and carry on. You can grow any plant you want with 2 T5 bulbs. You are just wasting time and energy worrying about how much light you have.
> 
> Your energy would be much better spent worrying about your flow/distribution and CO2 technique because that will be your biggest problem. If your plants fail it will be as result of lack of attention to these factors, which are 100X more important than the amount of light, and I guarantee that the more light you have, the more problems you will have.
> ...


Hello Ceg and thank you!
Yes, indeed i spent energy probably at the wrong thing. I will stick with this and i believe i will be fine. It is a nice fixture btw with a nice aluminum curved reflector. Not best, but good !

As for the flow and co2. I will go with the eheim 4+ 600 a powerful filter for my liters. For co2, this time i am going to use an external reactor. I have bazooka atomizer, inline atomizer but i am not a fan of microbubbles in tank. I dont know what is better to use, the spray bar or the common output. I v never used a spray bar but now eheim has one included. I guess i should try and see.


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## ceg4048 (14 Dec 2017)

Yes, try and use the spraybars. Have a study of the sticky thread https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/water-flow-in-the-planted-aquarium.1167/ in the Filtration forum section. This will show you how to use them.

Cheers,


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