# Running a hardscaped tank without planting



## James Burcham (15 Jun 2019)

If I hardscape my tank and run it for a while [maybe a few weeks] in order to fully visualize what I want to plant it with, am I risking anything?  For example major loss of nutrition from the tropica soil. 

I would not run lights except for very limited time per day for observation purposes only. 

Would there be any other benefits by doing this other then opportunity to pick the preferred plant for the space and lighting? 

I would run a par meter around the aquascape to observe mol levels in the plantable areas.


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## LouisGenin (15 Jun 2019)

You are right that the soil may leach ammonia and nutrients that would normally boost the plant grow at the start after planting. Though I don’t suspect the soil’s nutrients would be noticeable depleted in a few weeks with not plants up-taking them. Large water changes may be a good idea especially as I assume there will be no livestock to worry about 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Zeus. (15 Jun 2019)

J Findley from TGM use to use the same method so his substrate was cycle. Hardscape the tank run 4-6weeks with filter on only in the dark then plant the tank. It doesn't show in his bids but his employees told me it when I when down and got my hardscape materials from TGM.

You got an underwater PAR meter  impressive, which one did you get.


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## alto (15 Jun 2019)

It’s much easier/faster to plant in damp or dry soil than waterlogged soil - really only applies to 1-2-Grow or in vitro cups 

PAR meter can be used in air as easily as underwater, as long as hardscape is in place, it should all be relative 

If you don’t have access to any cycled media, you can use this time to establish some microorganisms - while you can add small amounts of ammonia (don’t increase above 1ppm is my recommendation), I prefer to add small amount of fish food alternate days (just checked, 50gal so you can be more generous with that food ) since I always have this at hand and it’s difficult to buy ammonia without surfactants 

Expect any wood to develop some pretty amazing Life (this too shall pass)
Sascha Hoyer shows some astounding algae and more in his most recent videos 
- that glove is excellent 

It’s a good way to test equipment (adjust CO2, check all lights etc working as expected) and look at Aquascape under water - which is rather different than air perspective 
If you move things about and water gets clouded, just do a 90% water change


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## James Burcham (15 Jun 2019)

You got an underwater PAR meter :eek: impressive said:
			
		

> A local saltwater shop rents theirs out for $10 and a $40 deposit.


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## James Burcham (15 Jun 2019)

alto said:


> If you don’t have access to any cycled media, you can use this time to establish some microorganisms - while you can add small amounts of ammonia (don’t increase above 1ppm is my recommendation), I prefer to add small amount of fish food alternate days (just checked, 50gal so you can be more generous with that food ) since I always have this at hand and it’s difficult to buy ammonia without surfactants



First tank in a long time so no other media.

You lost me on the ammonia part lol. I'm using tropica soil which to my understanding will produce ammonia. Will that not be enough to feed the bacteria? Are you saying to feed the bacteria fish food?



alto said:


> Expect any wood to develop some pretty amazing Life (this too shall pass)
> Sascha Hoyer shows some astounding algae and more in his most recent videos
> - that glove is excellent



You think I'll get a lot of algae even if I keep it dark?


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## James Burcham (16 Jun 2019)

Zeus. said:


> You got an underwater PAR meter  impressive, which one did you get.



Local shop rents there's out.


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## James Burcham (16 Jun 2019)

This is the current status of the tank. 
I'm soaking wood so it sinks and releases tannins. 
With some eco complete which will act as a power sand type base for the tropica. 
I've been changing  90% water daily.  It's been 3 days.


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## alto (16 Jun 2019)

James Burcham said:


> First tank in a long time so no other media.
> 
> You lost me on the ammonia part lol. I'm using tropica soil which to my understanding will produce ammonia. Will that not be enough to feed the bacteria? Are you saying to feed the bacteria fish food?
> 
> You think I'll get a lot of algae even if I keep it dark?




Tropica Aquarium Soil releases very little ammonia 
Fish food breaks down releasing a complex of compounds including Nitrogens
Of course glass boxes with water will develop bacteria etc even with no additives, it just takes longer and those bacterial etc populations will be smaller (less “food”)

Did you watch any of the videos in the the embedded link?

Dark will usually reduce algae, but depends on how much ambient light - even low light tanks can grow some rather nice algae as tank establishes, wood will likely display some interesting life forms 

 EcoComplete isn't really going to act much like ADA Powder Sand - it’s too fine and compacts tighter/denser, also the different structure won’t support bacteria in the same way


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## James Burcham (16 Jun 2019)

alto said:


> Tropica Aquarium Soil releases very little ammonia
> Fish food breaks down releasing a complex of compounds including Nitrogens
> Of course glass boxes with water will develop bacteria etc even with no additives, it just takes longer and those bacterial etc populations will be smaller (less “food”)
> 
> Did you watch any of the videos in the the embedded link?



Yes I watched. Thanks for the link. My German is a bit elementary but I think I get your point. I'll expect some sort of undesirable growth in this process.  Also I think I'll go ahead and plant the tank ahead of what I originally scheduled.  

Bummer about the eco complete. I thought it would hold its structure underneath the scape. 

Thanks for the info!


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## dw1305 (16 Jun 2019)

Hi all, 





James Burcham said:


> Will that not be enough to feed the bacteria?


Yes. should be.





James Burcham said:


> You think I'll get a lot of algae even if I keep it dark?


No, but it will probably grow some fungi. All plants are autotrophs, (they produce their own carbohydrates via photosynthesis), but fungi are heterotrophs, they don't need light and they will feed on any residual sugars and proteins in the wood.

It looks like the Red Algae (BBA etc) have the <"lowest light requirements">. 





James Burcham said:


> Are you saying to feed the bacteria fish food?


You don't need to, but it probably won't do any harm.  I'm not too worried about the microbes in the filter during the dark period, I'd just make sure that the tank is planted and the plants well established before adding any livestock. 

"Plant/microbe" filtration is much more effective than "microbe only" biofiltration. There have been a lot of new scientific advances (using RNA libraries) that have shown that the traditional, ammonia regulated, view of cycling isn't right and that nitrification in aquariums is largely carried out by the Archaea. 

Have a look at <"Bedside aquarium"> and links for some more details.

cheers Darrel
.


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## alto (16 Jun 2019)

James Burcham said:


> thought it would hold its structure underneath the scape.


The EC won’t change much - it’s pretty stable stuff - and you can use it as a layer beneath the Tropica Aquarium Soil - it will add height to the substrate, though if you want to prevent mixing, you’ll need to add some sort of mesh between 


Did you get much of the “glitter” in your EC?
Last couple bags I bought were crazy with glitter particles (Carib Sea sent me replacement bags - they’re still out in the shed)


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## James Burcham (17 Jun 2019)

[QUOTE="alto, post: 564413, member: Did you get much of the “glitter” in your EC?
Last couple bags I bought were crazy with glitter particles (Carib Sea sent me replacement bags - they’re still out in the shed)[/QUOTE]

No I didn't notice any glitter.


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## James Burcham (17 Jun 2019)

dw1305 said:


> No, but it will probably grow some fungi. All plants are autotrophs, (they produce their own carbohydrates via photosynthesis), but fungi are heterotrophs, they don't need light and they will feed on any residual sugars and proteins in the wood.



You called it! 
I started seeing all kinks off white fungus looking growth on the wood. I pulled it all out.

Is fungus going to be much of an issue once the entire scape is up and running?  It seems like I mostly only see people discussing algae issues.


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## alto (17 Jun 2019)

It’s usually short term, lasting a few weeks to a couple months depending on the wood
Most shrimp, snails, Otos seem to like it (though I had some wood slime that no one wanted to touch )

Getting this stage done before adding mosses to wood is always nice 

Rarely, you’ll end up with some wood that seems to keep on giving in the slime department


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## Aqua sobriquet (2 Jul 2019)

I just kept wiping the slime off and it eventually went.

How is your tank looking at the moment James?


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## James Burcham (3 Jul 2019)

@Aqua sobriquet I'd say its going pretty well. I did plant it. Today the scape is 5 days old. Some melting. Not so much the Crypts though which I thought was interesting. I'm attaching some pictures. You can tell me what you think  . The plants are pearling which I think is a good sigh. At least I know they are getting light.


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## Aqua sobriquet (3 Jul 2019)

It’s looking good James.


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## James Burcham (5 Jul 2019)

So the fungus we have been discussing seem to be growing on my Bucephalandra Red Mini. It's only on this plant and the DW. I have Bucephalandra Kedagang Japan in some places right next to the Red Mini and it's only on the one. Any explanation?


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## Jayefc1 (5 Jul 2019)

Tank looks epic mate really nice


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## Chris Tinker (5 Jul 2019)

what a beauty... any plans for out of the tank plants?


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## Zeus. (5 Jul 2019)

James Burcham said:


> So the fungus we have been discussing seem to be growing on my Bucephalandra Red Mini. It's only on this plant and the DW. I have Bucephalandra Kedagang Japan in some places right next to the Red Mini and it's only on the one. Any explanation?



Its the luck of the draw, fungus does like DW, it will soon sort its self out 

Looking good


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## James Burcham (5 Jul 2019)

Thanks all for the kind words and encouragement!


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## James Burcham (5 Jul 2019)

Chris Tinker said:


> what a beauty... any plans for out of the tank plants?



Thank you! I'm hoping the Bacopa Caroliniana, Hygrophila Araguaia, and the Juncus Repens will emerge out of the back right corner. Also I have some moss and Bucephalandra Red Mini planted near the surface in the DW that I'm hoping does the same.


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## Chris Tinker (5 Jul 2019)

its been nice to read this i just got my self a 4ft tank and thinking of starting with plants or no plants depending on funds. now i will be trying to get some asap


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## James Burcham (10 Jul 2019)

@Chris Tinker 4ft tank sounds great!  Check out this video. He talks about the benefits of running an unplanted scape.


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