# Dirty Plants !



## Antipofish (2 Apr 2012)

Hi, I could not think which forum to post this is so have put it in General, but if any mods think it should be elsewhere, please feel free to move it accordingly.

I have noticed that my plant leaves get dirty !  I dont understand why.  I have good flow, I do 50% water changes twice a week, I dont pull the plants up that much and mess around, the water seems clear.  And yet older leaves seem to have a film of dirt on them.  New leaves grow and emerge and are fine but then get dirty over a period of time.  And it wont come off many of the leaves, but seems to wipe off some of them.

I have colombo florabase capped with unipac fine gravel (1 to 2mm grain size).  I wondered if this was dusty and this dust gets somehow sucked up ?  The reason I think its dirt is that when I had my previous Eheim filter on, after only 10 days the floss pad was dark brown !  

Can anyone help, or ask me more questions to ascertain what it might me ?  I REALLY want to have pristine plants in my tank.  I have good growth and yet this dirt.


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## KittyKat (3 Apr 2012)

Can you post a photo of the "dirt" on the plant leaves?

Is your filtration (not flow) suitable for your tank size? Do you use a polishing sponge in your filter? Do you replace it regularly?


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## niru (3 Apr 2012)

I guess some of this dirt is some sort of algae (BBA??) trying to settle slowly. It looks like black, dark brownish dust that doesnt go away. Plus of course your true dust due to whatever reasons.

Check your co2 and flow. As an experiment, try a 3 day blackout.. if its a real algae it will show signs of elimination.. perhaps your co2 isnt reaching everywhere uniformly due to large-ish plant mass increase. keep that in check..

-niru


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## Iain Sutherland (3 Apr 2012)

i have the same issue with hydrocotyle sp japan in a low tech, older leaves get a 'beige' covering.  Also had it in my old hi tech tank on hydrocotyle but never found out what causes it, all i know is if co2, ferts and light are balanced then it doesnt appear... not that this is much help


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## ian_m (3 Apr 2012)

I have had and still have the same "brown dust" collecting on plants and rocks.

I understand they are diatoms, due to silicates in the water. Excess silicates can occur in newly setup tanks and after severe fiddling where the substrate is turfed up. You can get silcate removers to put in your filter, but generally they also remove phosphate as well, and I assume would be incompatible with a planted tanks and fertilisers.

They can be cured by more light, but then I got algae.

Or, as I am doing, wiping plants & surfaces with a peice of filter floss, changing fine filter floss more often and more water changes.


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## Iain Sutherland (3 Apr 2012)

i feel it isnt diatoms, which i to believed were due to silcates but clive advised me otherwise, seems more so in marines, the diatoms will go but the 'tanned' leaves will remain in the tank, also the dirty leaf look doesnt appear at the same time as diatoms, it more random, new or old tank...

Ill try to find my old thread about it...


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## geaves (3 Apr 2012)

Sounds like G6 withdrawal symptoms.....


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## Antipofish (3 Apr 2012)

KittyKat said:
			
		

> Can you post a photo of the "dirt" on the plant leaves?
> 
> Is your filtration (not flow) suitable for your tank size? Do you use a polishing sponge in your filter? Do you replace it regularly?



I will try and do a pic later sure.  Filter is perfectly suitable, its (currently) a Fluval G6. No polishing sponge but a 100%  no pass prefilter which means you should not need one. Cheers.  Having said that I am changing filter so it will be interesting to see if it makes a difference.  I am running carbon and purigen.  That should be more than enough to keep the water crystal clear though, and where the hell does the dirt come from !?  I havent exactly got hundreds of fish


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## Antipofish (3 Apr 2012)

geaves said:
			
		

> Sounds like G6 withdrawal symptoms.....



Ha bloody ha !  Its still on the tank at the moment, unless they have known for 3 weeks whats going to happen


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## geaves (3 Apr 2012)

Antipofish said:
			
		

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Sorry mate just couldn't resist that.....hope you get it sorted.


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## Antipofish (3 Apr 2012)

geaves said:
			
		

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For that you can come round with cotton wool and clean every leaf individually !!!


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## ceg4048 (3 Apr 2012)

Antipofish said:
			
		

> I have noticed that my plant leaves get dirty !  I dont understand why.


The WHY is explained in post #2 of page 3 in this unrelated thread. The solution is only very slightly tedious but is effective.
http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f= ... 1&start=20

Cheers,


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## Antipofish (3 Apr 2012)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

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Thanks Clive, so a) this is algae and not dirt I am dealing with ? and b) I need to do more water changes "a la violent disruption"... but how often and what % do you recommend ? I am doing 50% x2 a week at the moment.

Thanks


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## ceg4048 (3 Apr 2012)

Sorry mate, I was too short. I was not meaning to say that it was necessarily algae, although it may be diatomic, but I can't really tell until we see a photo. Can you see the sample photos of diatomic algae on JamesC's Algae Guide? There are over 10,000 species of Diatoms and some of them look like detritus. I disagree with the assessment of silicates as a causal factor but never mind, the important thing is to determine whether in fact is is diatomic or just plain old dirt.

If it is not diatomic, and if it is not dirt kicked up from the sediment and then settling on the leaves, then it is detritus produced and exuded by the plants themselves, which just sit on the surface until something moves them. What I was suggesting to do in that other thread (which _was_ talking about algae and nutrition) was to make it a normal routine, especially on stem plants, to shake and siphon as well as to preen the leaves gently between thumb and forefinger to wipe the biofilm from the surface. 

Even the plants that don't look dirty will have this brown dirt on them because they are producing it themselves. The bacteria feed on these carbohydrates and proteins. This counts as organic waste and should be gotten rid of. Often, if you shake fast growing stems and look closely, you'll see a cloud of detritus, which, if not siphoned off will settle and contribute to  the organic loading. So really, water changes are more technical that we sometimes imagine because we want to get rid of as much of these organics as possible, because ultimately they have to be broken down by bacteria and the bacteria need Oxygen to do that. Organic material robs the tank of the Oxygen which belongs to your fish and plants. You'll often hear the term B.O.D (Biochemical Oxygen Demand) - and this is one of the main things that expression is referring to. Oxygen that is better used keeping your fish and plants healthy is instead being diverted and allocated to bacteria to break down the organic products in the tank. That is NOT where you want to spend your "Oxygen Chits" because Oxygen is always in short supply.

This is the kind of stuff worth being obsessive about in a CO2 enriched tank. This is what some of that CO2 that you are injecting turns into. High tech is really a Catch-22 - high light forces you to feed lots of carbon and nutrients to keep the plants healthy, but then the plant produces more waste which can also make them unhealthy. So a Prime Directive is to get this stuff out of the tank. Low tech tanks don't have this problem because their waste production is so much slower.

Cheers,


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## Iain Sutherland (3 Apr 2012)

Once again, as always, i feel i have been educated, thanks clive.
Nuf said.


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## Antipofish (3 Apr 2012)

Clive thanks so much for that in depth post.  I am going to have to re read it and re read it again to fully ingest it.  I did a bit of shaking and stirring just now and BOY was there a lot of crud in there ! It was embarrassing to be honest.  I do "waft around" a bit when doing a water change but getting the stuff OUT of the tank at water change seems to be a task I cannot work out.  I can wave the suction hose around but its like Im chasing snowflakes. There is just too much to get rid of and I thought that it would stay suspended in the water column long enough for the filter to handle it ?  I guess what happens is I waft and disturb but then it settles again.  SO, any suggestions on how to ensure it is successfully exported ?

I will take pics tomorrow for sure.  Its lights out now so I dont want to disrupt that pattern for a pic tonight, but will DEFINITELY post it tomorrow and would appreciate you taking a peak back at the thread if you can.

I looked at the link to algae types and it is *possible* to be diatoms, but it does not seem to come off the leaves on my crypts even with quite hard rubbing.

I am hoping my pics tomorrow will help you ascertain the cause.

As an aside, my mechanical (prefilter cartridge on a G6) filter seems to get  VERY dirty VERY quick compared with what I would have expected.  And when I had an Eheim on there, the filter floss pad was dark brown within ten days.  Again, I was amazed.  I have never known filters get so dirty so quickly.  I have had tanks with a hundred and fifty fish in before, and the filters never got as dirty.  I dont know if this has a bearing but I thought I would mention it in case it was relevant.

Cheers


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## ceg4048 (3 Apr 2012)

Yeah mate, it's relevant. What happens when you eat a lot and drink a lot of beer? You produce a lot of waste, right? Same thing here. People just don't accept or realize just how much waste plants produce. Just think about how much plant mass is in the tank above and below the sediment. I'm sure they outweigh the combined weight of your tetras. Add the total weight of the plants and just consider that is equivalent to the weight of several goldfish of that weight.

Check my post in that other thread again. Can you see the photo? What I do is, with one hand, I shake the plant and with the other Ihold the green siphon near where I'm shaking, so that the cloud of particles get sucked up immediately. You can see that I modified the siphon hose by putting a filter intake strainer on the end. That way I minimize the damage to the leaves but the strainer holes are plenty big enough to ingest the dust cloud.

You can even become inovative and pretend to be Spiderman by afixing the siphon hose to the bottom of your wrist with a rubber band so that you can do this with one hand!

I use a 16/22 hose so it's easy and the suction is strong, but you can also attach hoses and strainers to pumps as well. If you drain the tank too quickly fill it up again and continue. There is no law preventing you from doing a 200% water change! I also use this same contraption to siphon the sediment, which also collects crud. The strainer holes are smaller than my gravel grain size, but even if it's not, such as with sand, I'll just siphon into a bucket and return the sediment to the tank after draining the bucket.

Just use imagination and whatever gear you have to get that gunkoutta there.

If the plant that you wipe with your fingers does not become clean and still looks stained then that might be GSA, so you might have a couple of issues going on here.

Cheers


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## Antipofish (3 Apr 2012)

Cheers Clive.  Im pretty sure its not GSA as it is not in any way green in colour nor spotted.  But Im just as likely wrong.  I will do those pics and if necessary even post you a plant for your proper observation if you think it would help correctly identify   Cheers for the input, its much appreciated.


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## Antipofish (4 Apr 2012)

Right, I WILL do pics this evening but just as  quick update, I did a 75% water change whilst giving the plants a serious "Clive Style" shakeup.  The MUCK     !!  Even now, the water looks pristine and the whole tank looks fresh and clean (Still dirt on the leaves but hey, theres time to deal with that). This is how it was looking at first.  Its how I always want my water to look.  How strange how some people say "leave the detritus, its plant food and the plants will deal with it" and get away with having lovely looking tanks.  I will never be a "passive" water changer again.  Its shake rock and roll every time in future.

CLIVE: Thanks for that great bit of advice.  I hope it is the start of cleaning the tank and its plants up.  I have to say, I am mightily impressed with the results even just after one clean up.  I will now invest in some 16mm tubing and a strainer like you suggested.


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## ceg4048 (6 Apr 2012)

Another satisfied customer.
Another mind freed from the tyranny of The Matrix.  8) 

Cheers,


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## Antipofish (6 Apr 2012)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Another satisfied customer.
> Another mind freed from the tyranny of The Matrix.  8)
> 
> Cheers,



Lol, its early days yet but it looks like it could be the solution.  Meanwhile I took a few pics of the tank just now to show you/others what I meant...

This pic shows plants looking clean and fresh before this issue arose..





And here are three shots of different plants...

1)Pogostemon Helferi.  See how the older, lower leaves seem to have collected dirt around the base....




2) Staurogyne Repens.  Same issue...




3) And some Hygro leaves.  Im not sure if this is the same issue but I have this on my crypts as well...




Is this dirt from the aquarium that has been circulated round ?


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## spyder (6 Apr 2012)

Glad to see the pictures, I've had this before and considered it an algae. Easy carbo helped along with constant trimming but I eventually ditched what was left of the plants. It was on Pogo Helferi too, just like your snap.

I took them from a slightly neglected low tech garage tank but they never really recovered.


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## George Farmer (6 Apr 2012)

That is algae. It's very common in newer setups; had it myself plenty of times. It will disappear all by itself after a while, assuming your conditions and maintenance are ok, which I'm sure they are.  Otocinclus usually relish it too.


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## spyder (6 Apr 2012)

The hygro photo looks like the start of staghorn.


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## Antipofish (6 Apr 2012)

spyder said:
			
		

> The hygro photo looks like the start of staghorn.



Hi Spyder, I have looked at the images on James' Algae Guide as suggested by Clive earlier and I don't think it is Staghorn, there are no filaments to this and its been on the leaves long enough that they would have formed if it was that.  Cheers though.  I am hoping what George said above is right   Clive made some good suggestions about water maintenance and I have started to incorporate it into my shedule.  I do hope that the invasiveness of my new water change regime has not pissed my male Apisto off so much that he is sick because of it.  Can't imagine that being the case though.


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## Antipofish (6 Apr 2012)

George Farmer said:
			
		

> That is algae. It's very common in newer setups; had it myself plenty of times. It will disappear all by itself after a while, assuming your conditions and maintenance are ok, which I'm sure they are.  Otocinclus usually relish it too.



Thanks George.  Maintenance has just improved following Clive's advice   I am happy with my conditions.  I am adding 7ml Easycarbo and 7ml TPN+ daily.  50 to 70% water changes twice weekly. CO2 on 2 hours before lights on, to bring dropchecker to a green (not lime green) and off an hour before lights off.  Photoperiod 2x24w T5 unreflected for 7hours a day.  Water params last time I checked (I dont test a lot) pH seems to be around the 6.4 mark most of the time, ammonia and nitrite never present when I have tested.  3dKH, 8dGH.  Using Seachem Prime as dechlorinator.  Can't think of any other info that might be relevant but please tell me if I have missed something or should be doing something else ?

I will get some more Ottos though.


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## spyder (6 Apr 2012)

Antipofish said:
			
		

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No worries, hope ya get it kicked. Just the odd leaf in the hygro shot has the characteristic dark green edge which is how I find it starts. As you have been changing a few things around over the past few weeks I'm sure it will settle down with your new and improved maintenance regime.


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## George Farmer (6 Apr 2012)

You system sounds excellent. Just be patient and I'm sure the algae will go away. 

I get algae; it comes and goes. Just look after the plants, keep up the maintenance and you will be fine. The common error is to make too big a change in something, which usually results in more algae, as algae is generally more adaptable than higher plants.


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## Antipofish (6 Apr 2012)

George Farmer said:
			
		

> You system sounds excellent. Just be patient and I'm sure the algae will go away.
> 
> I get algae; it comes and goes. Just look after the plants, keep up the maintenance and you will be fine. The common error is to make too big a change in something, which usually results in more algae, as algae is generally more adaptable than higher plants.



Cool thanks George   How old does a setup have to be before it is not longer considered "new" out of interest ? I kinda hoped I was over the "new stage" lol.  Having said that as I have been chopping and changing things (plants, filters, fish, CO2 method, CO2 levels) recently I expect it may as well be "new".  Im hoping to get some H. Araguaia @ LW tomorrow, and some Crypt Wendtii Brown too, and then that ough to be it for a while.  Gonna sit back, relax, do maintenance and hopefully enjoy watching it all grow (and that blardy Algae disappear).

Pity you can't make it down for the trip tomorrow, would have been cool to catch up  Hope you and the family have a cracking Easter


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## Matt Warner (6 Apr 2012)

> I get algae; it comes and goes. Just look after the plants, keep up the maintenance and you will be fine. The common error is to make too big a change in something, which usually results in more algae, as algae is generally more adaptable than higher plants.



Great advice George, I like your realist approach with the planted tank. At least you admit you have algae problems too just like everyone else. Some people act like they never ever get algae and it annoys me. Wherever there is light and water, you will always get some degree of algae whether we like it or not. I also like the fact that you like others on this forum never belittle people which is why people keep the hobby up and don't give up.


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## Matt Warner (6 Apr 2012)

Antipofish, just keep up on the water changes and you will be fine mate!


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## Antipofish (7 Apr 2012)

Matty1983 said:
			
		

> Antipofish, just keep up on the water changes and you will be fine mate!



Cheers Matty.  Will keep on track


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## Matt Warner (7 Apr 2012)

Cool! How was the trip out today?


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## Antipofish (7 Apr 2012)

Matty1983 said:
			
		

> Cool! How was the trip out today?



Awesome day. Great to meet some new faces, put some to names, and catch up with some I already knew. MA in Morden was better than most in the chain and their prices were reasonable with a bigger selection of fish than most too.  Not as many shrimp as I hoped for but you can't win 'em all.  Interesting that their Corydoras Trilineatus were under a fiver and on the way home I stopped off at the MA in Brighton, where the same fish was £8 !!     For a chuffing Trilineatus ! (Shame on you MA Brighton).  On to Living Waters, next which was quite an experience for someone who had never been before.  Quite the Tropical set up in every sense of the word.  They had some wild caught Apistos which I would have seriously thought about buying but Darren noticed they had fry in the tank and took them off sale.  I think there was other interested in them too from the group.     I don't think I have ever seen as much moss.  Heritage Aquatics on the way home, which had been billed as worth the trip, must have been having a bad day as it didn't impress me.  Just bread and butter stuff really.  I was hoping to find some chocolate gouramies but none to be had.  Great day though.  Now I am knackered.


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