# Long term substrate



## Rodgie (9 Nov 2017)

Hi aquascapers!

In your experience guys, what's the best substrate for long term use? I'm setting up a low tech tank soon. And I'm looking for ansubstrate that I don't have to worry about running out of nutrients, like ones that are capable of storing nutrients. Is Eco Complete the best one out there?. My tank will be carpeted with Monte Carlo too so looking for sub. That'll be good for planting these plants. 

Thank you,
Rodgie


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## Tim Harrison (9 Nov 2017)

I can't find any figures for Eco Complete's CEC, but from what I've read it's probably moderate at best. If you're going for a Gucci substrate, maybe you should also consider ADA AS as well. It has a CEC of around 24.5 - 27.5 me./100g which is one of the highest CEC's of any substrate. Therefore, it will perhaps absorb and store nutrients more readily than EC, and be more likely to maintain its viablility longterm. 
Either way, whatever substrate you decide on using I would always dose fertz as well. Plants uptake nutrients though leaves and roots so it makes good sense to feed both sites. 
Further, you may find that to grow a worthwhile carpet of Monte Carlo you'll need to at least dose LC.


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## Rodgie (9 Nov 2017)

Hi Tim,

Thank you for your response. I apologize I forgot to mention that I will dose dry ferts but hut no Co2.

I have further questions, what's LC? And is Monte Carlo okay with just 4 hours photoperiod of 821 lumens LED light? I want to keep the tank low tech with the led light that I'll have. And, I'm trying to get the right balance on the future.

Kind Regards,
Rodgie


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## foxfish (10 Nov 2017)

Hi Rodgie, I would suggest you read Tim's link (opposite his name in the above post).
Using soil might give you the best change of getting a carpet!
However it will not be an easy challenge!!!
6 hours of light is quite often used as a starting point, then building up to 8 -10 hours. It would seem low tech tanks benefit from longer lighting periods than high tech but I suggest you really study that question.


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## Kezzab (10 Nov 2017)

Rodgie said:


> Hi Tim,
> 
> I have further questions, what's LC?
> 
> ...


Liquid carbon.


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## Zeus. (10 Nov 2017)

LC - liquid Carbon, brands easycarbo, excel

You mentioned lumens but with out your tank dimensions we can't get the lumens per litre, 
Plus planing the MC as a carpet ? What depth.
If you could get the PAR data for your light it would be more helpful. 
Which light is it?


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## zozo (10 Nov 2017)

I guess, substrate, is the most controversial and likely the most misinterpreted component in the aquarium hobby.. I'm not saying i do fully understand, i rather think if anybody does it will be very few. For example CEC is alleged an important substrate propperty, but studies revealed that regarding plant growth it doesn't nessecary have to be the limiting factor. Lava based soils often have very low CEC compaired to clay based soils but it grows plants like a champion, when a country has a vulcano, all farmers fight for a spot to setle at its base. High CEC is good, but low CEC isn't per definition bad, the plant decideds if it has enough to grow with whatever CEC is available. Enough cec is enough..

This kinda makes the High CEC stamp on substrates nothing more than a marketing yell.

The biggest fear there is for long term substrate is clogging.. But also this, all tho oftenly debated how and why a substrate clogs, is nothing more but a theory. There are so many factors playing a role in this process it could be as easily totaly uncontrolable.. It occurs or it doesn't, after that you can only guess why.. It's what you see is what you get. Some say if substrate is too porous it cloges sooner becuase debri sinks in more easily and collects, which is just a half truth. Same as others say, no sand cloggs sooner because its fine in structure and more dense. Which again is a half truth. Both substrates have proven to be equaly as good as potential long term substrates.

Not running out of nutrients is highy depended on the number, type and grow speed of plants growing in it.

Maybe this helps you along the way..
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/the-lazy-asian-biotope.39346/
I remember something about reusing 10 year old substrate after a rescape and the plants took off in it like rockets..


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## Edvet (10 Nov 2017)

I've had the same substrate in my tank for 10 years now, riversand. When i started the tank i spread some laterite and clay first and put the sand on. I use some clay balls on swordplants once every two years or so and use ferts in the watercolumn.
The substrate doesn't dictate which plants i grow.


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## Tim Harrison (10 Nov 2017)

zozo said:


> I remember something about reusing 10 year old substrate after a rescape and the plants took off in it like rockets..


I'll go along with that too...I frequently reuse AS, and it serves my plants very well each time, but that's because I always dose fertz so it never really becomes exhausted; partly because my plants take a lot of what they need from the water column but also because AS absorbs nutrients from the water column where it's stored in a form plant roots can easily utilise...exchangeable cations.



zozo said:


> low CEC isn't per definition bad


High CEC also infers a better buffering capacity against missed fertz doses and other mistakes. And apparently, soils with a low CEC are more likely to develop deficiencies in potassium (K+), magnesium (Mg2+).
But absolutely, it is entirely possible to grow plants in marbles with water column dosing but I prefer to feed via both roots and leaves, to me it just makes good horticultural sense.



zozo said:


> The biggest fear there is for long term substrate is clogging


AS doesn't really become clogged in the way some lava based substrates might; it's mainly composed of clay and it's the layers of negatively charged micelles that give it it's high CEC,



zozo said:


> when a country has a vulcano, all farmers fight for a spot to setle at its base


That's very true, but the soil is fertile because it contains a lot of nutrient rich volcanic ash, which also infers excellent moisture holding qualities. However, under intense agriculture these soils can become nutrient depleted very rapidly and farmers rely on further eruptions to keep the soil fertile. It's a very precarious existence.

So sure, EC is a good substrate, but for similar money I'd go for AS every time.


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## dw1305 (10 Nov 2017)

Hi all,





Tim Harrison said:


> High CEC also infers a better buffering capacity against missed fertz doses and other mistakes. And apparently, soils with a low CEC are more likely to develop deficiencies in potassium (K+), magnesium (Mg2+).


I don't know, magnesium (Mg++) would be reasonably tightly bound on the clay minerals, but potassium (K+) is a mono-valent ion, and will be exchanged for ions with a higher valency fairly quickly. 

As @Tim Harrison alluded to ion exchange isn't a straight forward process, and ions are exchanged dependent upon their position of the<"lyotropic series, and their concentration in the water">. 

If you have water that is calcium rich and hard, then the vast majority of the cation exchange sites will be filled with a Ca++ ions fairly rapidly, and then after that those ions will be retained, and the substrate will no longer <be "active">. 





Edvet said:


> I've had the same substrate in my tank for 10 years now, riversand.


I use sand as well, and some of my tanks have been set up for ~ten years. 

I added about 5 - 10% clay and leaf-mold right at the start (as a source of slow release nutrients and to add a minimal amount of CEC), so even then it was 90% sand, and I haven't added anything since (although there is structural leaf litter in the tanks). I tend to leave the substrate pretty well alone once it is in place (removal of dead plant leaves, but very limited vacuuming of the mulm layer and none of the substrate). The tanks where the water is hard enough for MT Snails don't have any mulm. 

I differ from most people because I want a fairly low nutrient system, I don't want optimal plant growth, I just want some plant growth. 

Low nutrient levels bring long term stability, and that is what I want. 

Things can still go wrong, but they go wrong really slowly, giving you a chance to rectify things. 

cheers Darrel


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## roadmaster (10 Nov 2017)

Believe any substrate can be long term if as has been mentioned, you are willing to dose nutrient's as needed to the water column.
If I wanted substrate to be only location for plant's to draw nutrient's from,then I would opt for soil/clay mix and cap it with fine gravel.
My latest re set was almost two year's ago and substrate is soil capped with product Safe-t-sorb.
I dosed nutrient's to the water also, and still do but in relatively small amount's compared to high energy tanks where lighting is driving demand.


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## Rodgie (10 Nov 2017)

foxfish said:


> Hi Rodgie, I would suggest you read Tim's link (opposite his name in the above post).
> Using soil might give you the best change of getting a carpet!
> However it will not be an easy challenge!!!
> 6 hours of light is quite often used as a starting point, then building up to 8 -10 hours. It would seem low tech tanks benefit from longer lighting periods than high tech but I suggest you really study that q



Thank you for your advice, do you mean that if I use EC I have lower chance of carpeting MC? What soil would you suggest to use for my tank? 

To all,
Tank dimension is 17.2 x 10.6 x 6.3 Inch.
There's additional 1 inch distance from the light to the top of the tank. So I guess after substrate are in place, the distance from the light to the bottom will be 9 inches ish. I'll appreciate it if someone can help me the Par of the light even if it's just rough estimate. 

Definitely I'll dose dry ferts once a week or even twice if needed. Can MC really can't do well in a non Co2 tank? Even if it's low tech?


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## zozo (10 Nov 2017)

Monte carlo is quite easy, had it carpetting like mad on Akadama base substrate capped with colombo proscape fine. Akadama is realy nice if yu like the color. Colombo Pro scape is a waste of money, much to soft and much to expensive. But it grew MC and HC. As many already said, it likely wont matter whch substrate you use.. It's not the substrate limiting the plants you can grow. Thos some have pros and cons, but that's more shape and weight related than contents..


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## Rodgie (10 Nov 2017)

Hi zozo,

With your set up of MC in your acadama substrate. Did you dose Co2?  And was is low light? 

And if I choose Akadama I can just do it alone correct?


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## zozo (10 Nov 2017)

Yes it was co2 and a while rather a tad more light than low.. More like medium.. But also had MC in a low tech, remarkably enough in a shaded spot almost in the dark at a cave entrance. It didn't realy grow much but stayed alive for a year, till i accidently vacuumed it out. Never did put it back.. MC can be a slow starter, but once it sufficiently rooted it takes off with co2... As far as i know it'sone of the most favority low light carpeting plants. Hair gras can also be an option, but also darn slow but nearly indestructable in my experience.

Akadama is an ok substrate, tho the larger grain >3mm is difficult to penetrate because the coarse grains kinda hook into eachother. Need quite some force to plant bigger plants with roots.. If i would choose it again i would go for the finer grain available. No larger than 1-2mm. But it is a pretty stable long term substrate, at least as far i can say for the 2,5 years i have it in the tank. If it's still solid after all this time, why not longer.. We shall see still going strong and not done yet.. It grows plants realy well. Pitty it doesn't come in black or darker, personaly don't realy like the color. So i caped it. In the other low tech i used Fuji sand, which is rather hard to find, had to order it at a Bonsai shop in germany. This is black, but relatively hard crushed lava rock, but less porous then regular lava substrates. No ide why they call it sand.. The Bonsai enthousiasts wonder why it's in the trade. But it is and also grows aqaurium plants realy well if clay is added. Because it is rock, it will still be rock in a 100 years.

But don't ask me about substrate, i'm as anti fertilized substrate as someone can be.. I do not have experience with it and never will.Tho if so i'm leaning towards a combination with clay cmpost based pond soils and something inert.  Experimented with that, only placed it where the plants root. It was an Eureka! Imho.

What i sometimes do absolutely not understand in the scaping hobby.. And seen it quite often.. Someone puts in 15 litres of ADA Soil and than plant 80% epiphytes.. 
Mysterious isn't it, could have saved 80% of the money invested with thinking twice.  But that's just me.. I guess..


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