# Cycling a new tank with the old one still running, anyway to speed it up?



## Muso1981 (26 Mar 2021)

Hi all,

I have a planted 120 litre tank with fish and shrimp, and I'm going to move all this over to a 200 litre tank. I was wondering if there way anyway of having a quicker/easier cycle by somehow using the old tank? I can't find anything on this anywhere but I thought if I put the new filter unit from the new tank into the old tank and run it along side the old unit would it collect the bacteria so that I could then transfer it into the new tank along with some fish, or wouldn't this work? 

Thanks,


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## dw1305 (26 Mar 2021)

Hi all, 


Muso1981 said:


> but I thought if I put the new filter unit from the new tank into the old tank and run it along side the old unit would it collect the bacteria so that I could then transfer it into the new tank along with some fish, or wouldn't this work?


Yes, it works. My suggestion would be to:

Take the media out of both filters. 
Swirl the old  filter media into a bucket.  
Swirl the new filter media in the mulmy water. 
Put the media back into the filters, putting both new and old media in both filters. 
Connect the filters back up to the tank.
Is the new tank directly replacing the old tank? or could you run them simultaneously?

cheers Darrel


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## Wookii (26 Mar 2021)

What substrate are you using in the new 200 litre tank? If you are using an aqua soil, be aware that most are loaded with ammonia which they then proceed to leach into the water column, so don't add any livestock for a couple of weeks. If you are using an inert substrate (and plenty of plants), you should be safe to add some earlier on.


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## Muso1981 (26 Mar 2021)

@dw1305  The filters are totally different so the media can't be swapped around. The new tank will be replacing the old tank but this will be a gradual process, thanks for the suggestion so I could do this when I do my water change this weekend.  

@Wookii I have Tropica soil powder in the new take, I wasn't aware of this so thanks. I've had water in the tank now for a week, I will do a water test to check before I put anything in. It sounds like I could have done the cycle with just the tropica soil then? I've got some tetra safe start which I'm going to add when I add the first few hardy fish. 

Great advice guys, many thanks!


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## Wookii (26 Mar 2021)

Muso1981 said:


> @Wookii I have Tropica soil powder in the new take, I wasn't aware of this so thanks. I've had water in the tank now for a week, I will do a water test to check before I put anything in. It sounds like I could have done the cycle with just the tropica soil then? I've got some tetra safe start which I'm going to add when I add the first few hardy fish.



On behalf of your fish,  please don't do that. There is no such thing as a 'hardy' fish when it comes to ammonia tolerance. Fish are no more 'hardy' to ammonia exposure, than we are to asbestos exposure!

Tropica Powder (which I use) leaches a lot of ammonia for well over a week or more .You need to get rid of it with large (80%+) daily water changes for at least two weeks. Please don't consider adding any livestock until you have zero ammonia levels. You can ensure that either a) by using an ammonia test kit and producing repeatable zero ammonia results, or b) by simply waiting a month or more for the plants to start growing in well.

I know test kits aren't well thought of on this forum, but I consider an ammonia and nitrite test kit mandatory when starting a new tank *if* the 'simply waiting' technique (which is preferred) cannot be followed. The visual accuracy of either test can also be improved by using tap water as a base line zero-level comparison at the same time.


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## dw1305 (26 Mar 2021)

Hi all,


Muso1981 said:


> The filters are totally different so the media can't be swapped around


Fair enough, it isn't essential.

I don't tend to use the media sets that come with filters. I don't like floss or fine sponge in the tanks (I like a <"pre-filter"> for mechanical filtration), and I just use any combination of coarse sponge, floating cell media, <"Eheim "coco-pops", Alfagrog, Hydroleca etc."> in the media baskets.


Muso1981 said:


> I will do a water test to check before I put anything in. It sounds like I could have done the cycle with just the tropica soil then? I've got some tetra safe start which I'm going to add when I add the first few hardy fish.





Wookii said:


> On behalf of your fish, please don't do that. There is no such thing as a 'hardy' fish when it comes to ammonia toleration.


Have a look at <"Dr Timothy Hovanec's comments about Bacterial supplements">. In terms of "cycling" you don't <"need to add ammonia"> etc (it may actually prolong the time period when your tank isn't fish safe). You just need to <"plant the tank up and wait for the plants to grow in">.

It does away with a lot of the uncertainty  <"surrounding water testing">.

cheers Darrel


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## Muso1981 (26 Mar 2021)

Hi @Wookii I just did a test on the tank and you were right this soil does release ammonia, I'm shocked as it's reading pretty damn high! why is there no warning on the packaging? Ok I definitely won't be adding any fish, but am now thinking that this will in effect cycle the tank without fish so I can just leave it running? I don't need to do a water change, I can just leave it to cycle right? 

I'm so glad I asked on here, the waters been in the tank over a week now. I suppose I can add the Tetra Safe Start to speed thing up right?

Also @Wookii I notice you are in Nottingham too, where do you get your plants from? 

thanks @dw1305 for the link I will definitely have a good read when I get the time.


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## Wookii (26 Mar 2021)

Muso1981 said:


> I don't need to do a water change, I can just leave it to cycle right?



No, precisely the opposite - you need to do loads of big water changes, 75%+ a day for a week or so, then every other day for a couple of weeks. Ammonia is the enemy, and removing it will help you avoid an algal outbreak and reduce the chance of melt.



Muso1981 said:


> I'm so glad I asked on here, the waters been in the tank over a week now. I suppose I can add the Tetra Safe Start to speed thing up right?



You could add it if you have a bottle already, but I personally don’t think it does anything to aid cycling.



Muso1981 said:


> Also @Wookii I notice you are in Nottingham too, where do you get your plants from?



I have historically bought plants from Aquarium Gardens or Aquasabi (before Brexit stopped them shipping to the UK). I’ve bought some from Proshrimp as well but their quality is hit and miss.

Now I tend to prefer to buy plants from members on here in the classifieds. They have the advantage of already growing well in submerged form, and I’ve had some incredible quality plants.


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## Muso1981 (26 Mar 2021)

@Wookii  I have nothing the tank at the moment apart from the Tropica soil and water, surely the ammonia being released will start the nitrogen cycle? What do you mean by melt?


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## Wookii (26 Mar 2021)

Muso1981 said:


> @Wookii  I have nothing the tank at the moment apart from the Tropica soil and water, surely the ammonia being released will start the nitrogen cycle? What do you mean by melt?



Oh, I hadn’t realised you hadn’t planted yet. If you are running it dark, then there isn’t the same immediate need, but I’d still do the water changes. The cycling on needs a very small amount of ammonia present. High levels may be detrimental (@dw1305) might be able to confirm.

Getting it planted up ASAP will help with the cycling and ammonia removal.

By melt, I meant melting and decay of plant leaves which high levels of ammonia can cause, as I assumed you’d already planted the tank.


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## Zeus. (26 Mar 2021)

If running it in dark for few weeks there may not be a need to seed the new filter media, 4-6 weeks is all it takes and was the method TGM ( The Green Machine) used - it doesn't show in the vids. if less than 4-6 weeks I would fill the new tank with water, prime it or wait 24hrs, them just squeeze/clean active sponges in new tank water (unless they are really dirty), if really dirty, clean them put back in old tank wait a few days then use them.


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## dw1305 (26 Mar 2021)

Hi all, 


Muso1981 said:


> surely the ammonia being released will start the nitrogen cycle?


While you don't have any plants you <"can turn the light off">, but carry on changing some water.  As soon as you plant the tank the plants will start removing the fixed nitrogen (NH3, NO2 and NO3). 

Just ignore everything you've read, or been told, about aquarium filters, <"ammonia and cycling"> none of it is right. 

cheers Darrel


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## John q (26 Mar 2021)

To be honest here and if there's nothing in the tank(live stock or plants) I'd just hook the new filter up to it and keep doing water changes to keep ammonia levels to ~1ppm. If you already have some tetra start then add it, won't do any harm.

And before I get pounced on, even Dr Timothy Hovanec suggests ammonia levels less than 5ppm are safe for bacteria, although I wouldn't risk levels that high.

When you come to putting plants in just make sure the ammonia levels have dropped to zero, or do some big water changes to make that happen.


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## Muso1981 (26 Mar 2021)

Thanks for all the replies, I must admit I'm even more confused than ever now. Why do I need to do water changes to remove ammonia? Surely I should let the Nitrogen cycle take care of that? There's nothing in the tank apart from the soil and water so no real rush, the waters been in there a week.


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## dw1305 (26 Mar 2021)

Hi all,


Muso1981 said:


> Why do I need to do water changes to remove ammonia? Surely I should let the Nitrogen cycle take care of that?


The traditional view of nitrification (<"cycling">) in <"aquarium filters, isn't right">. The bacteria, that needed high levels of ammonia and carbonate hardness, <"don't actually occur in aquarium filters"> and nitrification is carried out by an assemblage of Ammonia Oxidising Archaea  (AOA) and _Nitrospira_ bacteria, some of which are COMAMMOX organisms that can <"directly oxidise ammonia (NH3) to nitrate (NO3)">.

Scientists have found all these novel nitrifying organisms by searching for gene sequences and they've also found that the assemblage that develops in  aquarium filters is characterised by <"a stable core of microbes that are favoured by low ammonia levels">.

As soon as you add plants in you have <"plant/microbe nitrification">, and that is potentially a lot more effective than  "microbe only" nitrification, there are a number of reasons for this, but a major one is the net <"positive oxygen production of plants">, because nitrification is an <"oxygen intensive process">.

cheers Darrel


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## tam (26 Mar 2021)

Any reason you can't run the old filter temporarily on the new tank? I'd do the setup, get your 'scape' sorted, add plants - let the tank run a few weeks so you have active plant growth. Then double check your ammonia is ok from substrate and move the old filter and fish over. You can remove the old filter later once the tank is well established.

I did mine slightly more gradually in that I set it up, ran a few weeks, then moved some media from my old tank along with some of the fish. Then added more fish and the old filter. Does depend a bit on your stocking level and type of fish though. I was doubling volume so a slightly bigger increase than you.


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## Muso1981 (27 Mar 2021)

The old tank is a juwel so fixed filter and I need to keep that in the tank as it's well established, with lots of plants, fish and shrimp. The new tank is a fluval so I can move the filter where I like.

Something else I mentioned is that I want to add some fish before plants as I have 3 gold gourami who constantly hide in the current tank and this is because they were constantly attacked by a Molly for a while. Before the Molly was in there they would be social fish and would hang around the surface but since the Molly attacked them they constantly hide at the bottom of the tank. They have been like this for about 6 months since the Molly was removed so their behaviour isn't changing. My aim is to add them to the tank once cycled but there won't be anything for them to hide behind for a while so it will hopefully reset their behaviour.


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## John q (27 Mar 2021)

Muso1981 said:


> My aim is to add them to the tank once cycled but there won't be anything for them to hide behind for a while so it will hopefully reset their behaviour.


Possibly, but adding already skittish fish that naturally like plant cover to a bare tank could well make the problem worse.


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## jaypeecee (27 Mar 2021)

Wookii said:


> Fish are no more 'hardy' to ammonia exposure, than we are to asbestos exposure!


Hi @Wookii 

I like the comparison.

JPC


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## Muso1981 (27 Mar 2021)

Today I tested the water and it was 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, so I'm going to put fish in there tomorrow with some start start. The Tropica soil only required 1 water change to sort it out.


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## dw1305 (27 Mar 2021)

Hi all,


Muso1981 said:


> Today I tested the water and it was 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, so I'm going to put fish in there tomorrow with some start start.


I would very strongly advise not doing this.

cheers Darrel


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## anewbie (27 Mar 2021)

Going back to the original question - what I normally do is take a sponge filler from the establish tank and move it to the new one - if i don't have one - i put one in a few weeks before  setting up the new tank. I then take  a few fishes from the establish tank and move them to the new one - and test the water for the first few days. I will sometime get a spike as high as .5 ammonia and if i see it above 0.25 i will put in a few drops of prime to neutralize. This seems to work fairly reliably and after the first week the ammonia become stable at 0.


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## John q (28 Mar 2021)

Just to echo Darrel I would also advise against this @Muso1981

To give you a little background and I'm not overly proud to say this but over the years I've done numerous fish in and fishless cycles, so have a little practice at doing this.


Muso1981 said:


> I just did a test on the tank and you were right this soil does release ammonia, I'm shocked as it's reading pretty damn high!





Muso1981 said:


> Today I tested the water and it was 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, so I'm going to put fish in there tomorrow with some start start. The Tropica soil only required 1 water change to sort it out.



So you've done a big water change and removed any testable levels of ammonia?
The problem with these substrates is the fact you have no control on the amount of ammonia leaching in to the tank, you'll probably find tomorrow that more ammonia has been released and is in the water column, your test kit might pick it up or it might not.
That's why the general guidance is to do large daily water changes for at least a couple of weeks and add plants from the outset, they help mop up the ammonia alongside the filter cycling.



Muso1981 said:


> My aim is to add them to the tank once cycled but there won't be anything for them to hide behind for a while so it will hopefully reset their behaviour.



I can guarantee you that the new filter won't have cycled in 8 days.

I've added fish after a two week fishless cycle thinking all was well and slowly but surely the nitrite levels start to creep up, you then find yourself fire fighting with multiple daily water changes, loading the tank with prime and generaly getting stressed about it for another two weeks whilst awaiting for nitrates to appear and save the day, if you're lucky you only lose the odd fish!

The problem you're going to have is putting already stressed fish into a tank that's not cycled, with substrate that's leaching ammonia. Not preaching but this really is a bad idea.


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## Muso1981 (28 Mar 2021)

Hi, tested again this morning and 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites. 2 days since I did a water change, I'm finding it hard to understand why I can't add the fish and the sure start? I will be doing the tests daily with the fish in and if it gets high I will transfer them back into the original tank. As I mentioned earlier I'm not adding any plants until a bit later as I was to try and reset the Gouramis behaviour, this is one of the reasons I'm upgrading the tank.
Im not saying it has cycled in 8 days but I it doesn't seem that there is any ammonia or nitrites in the tank according to my test.


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## tam (28 Mar 2021)

If you waterchanged out the ammonia from the substrate (and I don't remember tropica producing much when I set mine up), the reason you have zero ammonia and nitrite is because nothing is producing  ammonia. As soon as you put a source of ammonia in there i.e. fish - you will have ammonia but you have nothing to deal with it because you have a brand new filter.

Are you sure it's not possible to move the filter media from old to new? Most filters you can stuff sponges where you like - you can even take a sponge out of an old filter and run it on the intake of a new if you can't physically fit it inside.


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## Muso1981 (28 Mar 2021)

Hi Tam, when I did my water change on the old tank I took out a bit of water put it into a bucket then cleaned out the older filters into that. I then put the new filters into that bucket , swished them around and left for about 30 minutes. I then put that dirty water into the new tank along with the new dirty filters. Hopefully this will help things along. Also a load of snails hiding in the filter have gone into the new tank.
I suppose I could cut up one of the old filters to make it fit, but when I looked at the filters they seemed pretty dirty so I'm hoping all that good bacteria has gone in there.


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## Wookii (28 Mar 2021)

Muso1981 said:


> The old tank is a juwel so fixed filter and I need to keep that in the tank as it's well established, with lots of plants, fish and shrimp. The new tank is a fluval so I can move the filter where I like.
> 
> Something else I mentioned is that I want to add some fish before plants as I have 3 gold gourami who constantly hide in the current tank and this is because they were constantly attacked by a Molly for a while. Before the Molly was in there they would be social fish and would hang around the surface but since the Molly attacked them they constantly hide at the bottom of the tank. They have been like this for about 6 months since the Molly was removed so their behaviour isn't changing. My aim is to add them to the tank once cycled but there won't be anything for them to hide behind for a while so it will hopefully reset their behaviour.



I hope you don’t think I’m being overly blunt here, but I’m failing to understand why you think adding three fish that are already showing signs of distress and shyness, from a tank that presumably provides them at least some cover and places to feel secure, to a completely open and bare glass box prison?

Nothing in what you are suggesting has the welfare and wellbeing of the fish as the primary concern, which is precisely what you should be focusing on. You have a duty to care to the fish to provide the best environment you can for them, and an empty tank isn’t it.

By far your better plan would be improving their  sense of security by installing all hardscape, and planting the tank heavily. You can then look to increasing the quantity of them to 6 fish which should help reduce their shyness.


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## dw1305 (28 Mar 2021)

Hi all,


Muso1981 said:


> ..... days since I did a water change, I'm finding it hard to understand why I can't add the fish and the sure start? I will be doing the tests daily with the fish in and if it gets high I will transfer them back into the original tank. As I mentioned earlier I'm not adding any plants until a bit later .............. I'm not saying it has cycled in 8 days but I it doesn't seem that there is any ammonia or nitrites in the tank according to my test......


You don't have to take any notice of this, but it is honestly the truth. 

Traditionally people have looked on the nitrifying bacteria in the filter as essential and plants as decoration, rather than the plants and microbes forming a system with <"much greater potential for nitrification">. The advantage of using plant growth as a measure of whether the tank is fish safe is *that you can see the plants*.  You *can't see the filter microbes or the amount of ammonia (NH3) *in the tank water. 

*"Watching the plants"* means that you aren't <"reliant on test kit results">, plenty of healthy plant growth = fish safe it is as simple as that.


Muso1981 said:


> As I mentioned earlier I'm not adding any plants until a bit later as I was to try and reset the Gouramis behaviour, this is one of the reasons I'm upgrading the tank.





Wookii said:


> but I’m failing to understand why you think adding three fish that are already showing signs of distress and shyness, from a tank that presumably provides them at least some cover and places to feel secure, to a completely open and bare glass box prison?


Same for me, basically <"the more cover you have"> the happier your fish are. 

cheers Darrel


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## Driftless (28 Mar 2021)

Muso1981 said:


> The old tank is a juwel so fixed filter and I need to keep that in the tank as it's well established, with lots of plants, fish and shrimp. The new tank is a fluval so I can move the filter where I like.
> 
> Something else I mentioned is that I want to add some fish before plants as I have 3 gold gourami who constantly hide in the current tank and this is because they were constantly attacked by a Molly for a while. Before the Molly was in there they would be social fish and would hang around the surface but since the Molly attacked them they constantly hide at the bottom of the tank. They have been like this for about 6 months since the Molly was removed so their behaviour isn't changing. My aim is to add them to the tank once cycled but there won't be anything for them to hide behind for a while so it will hopefully reset their behaviour.


I would add plants before fish.  The order that I add is plants, then nerite snails, then shrimp, and finally some fish.  As Darrel said wait until the plants are starting to thrive before you think about adding fish, cycling is a process that you don't want to rush.


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## Muso1981 (28 Mar 2021)

Hi, adding more fish isn't really an option as the reason I got the bigger tank was to give them more space. As I mentioned before they were very social Gouramis then they got bullied which has made them hide all the time.  Adding in loads of stuff for them to hide behind will mean that they will continue to hide. I don't see how giving them a few days without cover as being cruel? I mean it would be a week max before I add significant cover and in a fish shop they have loads of fish in glass prisons and ultimately this is where all of our fish come from.


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## John q (28 Mar 2021)

Muso1981 said:


> Adding in loads of stuff for them to hide behind will mean that they will continue to hide. I don't see how giving them a few days without cover as being cruel? I mean it would be a week max before I add significant cover and in a fish shop they have loads of fish in glass prisons and ultimately this is where all of our fish come from.


The fish are hiding because they're stressed or feel threatened in some way, changing this behaviour could be done by simply moving a few things around or adding  items in their current set up. Move a stone from one side and put it on the other, maybe add a plant pot to where the stone was, if you've any wood in there turn it through 90~180 degrees if possible, add a cave.
Basically by changing things a bit it could be enough to encourage their behaviour to change.
It could also get you away from rushing your new tank set up.

You've been given some really helpful advice in this thread and I'd like to hope you listen to at least some of it.
Nobody's trying to judge you, we just don't want you making the same mistakes as we've either seen, or like me made in the past.


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## Muso1981 (28 Mar 2021)

Hi yes some good advice agreed which I'm thankful for. Cheers! 😃


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## TimmyTP (29 Mar 2021)

Muso1981 said:


> Today I tested the water and it was 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, so I'm going to put fish in there tomorrow with some start start. The Tropica soil only required 1 water change to sort it out.


I ran mine for two week from new with tropica soil and plants, did two 50% water changes testing both times after a couple of daysammonia tested 0% on both occasions so i introduced 5 fish yesterday, up to now ever thinking seem to be going ok 🤞 I'll test again tonight.


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## Muso1981 (29 Mar 2021)

Hi @TimmyTP that's interesting, so you saw no ammonia at all from the soil? I must admit I've not noticed much either, 4 days on from 1 water change and still no ammonia reading. Maybe I'm gonna have a big spike at some point? Good luck with the tank, what size is it?


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## TimmyTP (30 Mar 2021)

Well so far so good fish are still alive all water parameters are ok🤞 plants are starting to grow.


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## Muso1981 (31 Mar 2021)

Glad to hear it, the early stages of setting up a tank is quite stressful isn't it? I'm still reading 0 ammonia, the soil doesn't seem to be releasing ammonia at all.


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## GHNelson (31 Mar 2021)

This procedure below will help!








						Using stem plants as a filtering aid at Start Up!
					

The subject of using fast-growing stem plants as part of a filtering aid has cropped up a few times recently. This idea has been around for a long time so not new,....it has benefits especially for a new set - up. I try and cover at least 50% of the water surface minimum.  1. Improves water...



					www.ukaps.org
				



hoggie


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## Muso1981 (31 Mar 2021)

Thanks @GHNelson


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## TimmyTP (4 Apr 2021)

Just setting up the co2
£10 cylinder of eBay 👍
£35 for the gauges


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## TimmyTP (4 Apr 2021)

TimmyTP said:


> Just setting up the co2
> £10 cylinder of eBay 👍
> £35 for the gauges new, China 🇨🇳 special


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