# Why can't I grow healthy plants? What am I missing? - Now improving!



## Nick Norman (5 Aug 2018)

I set up my tank over three years ago with easy plants dosing liquid carbon and macros and micros. I had some luck with some plants (mainly ferns, anubias and crypts) but stems never grew that well.

About a year ago I decided to try pressurised co2 and re-scape in the hope of having a lush green tank with stems.

Unfortunately I haven’t had much success. The stems are alive and grow but are very stunted and leggy. The growth is so slow with older leaves growing algae.

I removed most of the algae at one point and tried less light but the algae grew back and the plants didn’t improve and just stopped growing.

I have spent many hours reading info on this forum and implementing the advice given. I am now at a loss as to why my tank is so far off the health of tanks on this forum.

I haven’t yet tried lots more light. Everything I have read says more light isn’t the answer. I recently added a 7 watt led, the growth rate increased a bit but so did the algae.

*Tank*

The tank is 80 x 40 x 45cm High, Approx. 120ltr with hardscape.

*Lights  *

Current lights are two 50cm aquaray aqaubars 12watts each. And a DIY 6000K 7w led strip recently added. All are 18 cm above water line, 56 cm above lowest point of substrate.

*Filter/Flow*

Filter is a sunsun 302 rated at 1000 l/h (actual turnover 400 l/h) to a spray bar across half the back glass facing the front glass.

Also have a Hydor Koralia Nano 900 on the other half the back glass facing the front glass.

*Substrate*

ADA aquasoil 80% 3 years old, 20% 1 year old.

*Ferts*

50% weekly water change

API test kit: GH 15, KH 9

Thames water nitrate reading: 30ppm

I dose EI with half the recommended nitrate as tap water has nitrate.

Macros

500ml solution from dry salts dosing 50ml 3 times a week

K3PO4: 2 grams = 1.3 ppm of P per dose.

KNO3: 7 grams = 3.9 ppm of N and 2.5 of K per dose

K2SO4: 14 grams = 5.7 ppm of K per dose.

Micros

TNC trace (dry ferts). I add the amount advised by TNC on alternate days from Macros.

*Co2
*
It took a while to get the co2 as it is.
I have had it set up like this at 6 bps for a few months now with no improvement to plants.

Co2 from FE at 6 bps.

The co2 is delivered through an UP inline atomizer into an APS EF-2 filter booster as a reactor to a spray bar across half the rear glass facing forward.

Last PH profile:

Tank water left in a cup for 24 hours: 8.26

07:00   7.81
12:00   7.84 Co2 on
13.00   7.11
14:00   6.77 Lights on.
15:00   6.67
16:00   6.65
17:00   6.65
18:30   6.63 co2 off
19:00   6.68
19:30   6.75
20:30   6.89
21:00   6.96 lights off


So what next? I don’t want to give up but don’t want to waste any more money and time on stuff if it’s not going to improve anything. I have considered starting again with new plants and substrate but don't want to end back where i am now. 

I have been removed the majority of the algae when implementing a change but it has always grown back. I have a feeling I just need to continue to improve on the same things, Co2, flow and maintenance. Just hoping there was something I was missing that someone on here could tell me. The plants are so unhealthy there must be something drastically wrong!


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## Zeus. (5 Aug 2018)

Hi Nick

Thanks for all the info on your setup, you have been trying hard.
My initial thoughts are not enough light as plants are stunted and leggy. In most tanks users use too much light. IMO your at the other end of the spectrum


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## Zeus. (5 Aug 2018)

Opps

Not sure of the output of your lights, but have with one off my tanks been in the same situation, you focus on the algea and not the poor growth so you turn the lights down. The short laggy stems IMO are the key. Low light intensity leads to the PAR getting to the plants being just enough but plenty for algea.
I may be wrong so interested to see what others with more experience have to advise


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## Iain Sutherland (5 Aug 2018)

Hey Nick, 

I'm sorry you having issues as on paper you are doing all the right things.
As Zeus has said the light levels may be an issue however personally I think you should  start with looking at the flow.
The spray bar doesn't have much gusto, ideally the flow would hit the front of the tank when above water level, the action of the atomizor and inline heater will be reducing what is already an underpowered flow set up.  I appreciate there is a small powerhead in there as well which helps but from experience powerheads just don't seem to work as well as filter outlets as the output of them is a big rose head and not very directional.

As a cheap option prior to new filter or lights try adding another powerhead, give the tank a really good clean, when you do this waft your hand around the plants and hardscape to stir up the detritus, clean the filter, trim heavily damaged/weak/algae covered plants out, put new drop check fluid in and place it in an area without direct flow and if possible add a good bunch of rotala or other fast growing stem somewhere ( this can be your canary, if that starts to degrade also then the changes you have made aren't working)

Up the water changes to twice weekly 50% and then wait at least 2 weeks. 
If this hasn't started to show improvement then you can move on to alternative and possibly more expensive options such as lighting.  

Keep us updated with what you do and how it goes, between us you will have a lush tank in a few months 

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


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## rebel (5 Aug 2018)

I suggest doubling light output .Remove algae daily . You will know in 2 weeks .

You should be commended for sticking with it for this long!--

Btw if no results, double lights again .


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## Edvet (5 Aug 2018)

Iain Sutherland said:


> ooking at the flow.


my vote as wel, doesn't look like the CO2 reaches . Plants grow wel in low light, just slow. pH keeps falling when the lights are on, pH should bottom out in an hour or two. This points to distribution and dissolving problems.
Increasing the maintenance will help ofcourse,


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## ceg4048 (5 Aug 2018)

This is a flow distribution problem and has nothing to do with light.
Leggy growth is a symptom of poor flow/distribution.

As Ian points out, there is a severe lack of energy coming from the spraybar.
Additionally, it's position is too far to the right and the powerhead is too far to the left.

I have no idea what is a "APS EF-2 filter booster as a reactor "
If it is a reactor then it seems pointless because you mention that you have installed an Up atomizer?

So the tepid flow rate from the spraybar means that :
A. There is too much media in the filter
B. There are fittings or connectors that are reducing the cross sectional area of the piping.
C. The APS device is install in such a way as to conflict with the filter flow.

Or any combination of the above.

After addressing the flow, next is to reconfigure the spraybar and powerhead so that the better compliment each other.
They should be centralize so that there is an equal distance between the powerhead and the left wall as there is from the end of the spraybar and the right wall.

Another possibility is to centralize the spraybar and place the powerhead either above or below the bar at the midpoint.

Flow/distribution is something that you really have to play with to get it right for your specific tank, but these are good starting points.

Cheers,


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## Nick Norman (5 Aug 2018)

Thanks for your responses. It makes sense to improve the flow before adding more light. I thought i had improved the flow a lot when changing to pressurised co2 by making smaller holes in the spray bar and spaced them farther apart and added the power head. I have seen vids/images of members tanks with spray bars the full length hitting the front glass so i suppose my flow is far from optimal.



ceg4048 said:


> I have no idea what is a "APS EF-2 filter booster as a reactor "
> If it is a reactor then it seems pointless because you mention that you have installed an Up atomizer?



I first had just the up atomiser and had lots of micro bubbles which collected on the surface and large bubbles now and again. I added the filter booster for the co2 to dissolve in before reaching the tank. It has no media in, just a bucket with the flow going in through the top and out through the bottom. It seams to work as I have no bubbles in the tank. 

The sunsun filter isn't very strong. I tested it with and without the heater and filter booster, just the spray bar at tank height and it took the same time to fill a 30ltr bucket. (400 lph) The filter has in it course filter sponge in one tray and a bag of ceramic filter rings in each of the other two.

I will re position the power head and filter as suggested and see if I can get any more flow out of the filter. I could try another power head or maybe get a better filter. Then will trim, clean as advised and do two weekly 50% water changes and see what happens.      

If i was to upgrade the filter what filter would give me enough flow along the whole length of the tank without the need for powerheads? What lph would I need as the filters don't produce stated flow? would this be achievable with one filter or would i need two?

Thanks again for the advice.


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## techfool (5 Aug 2018)

My lighting is seriously crappy (I got a kit aquarium from petsathome) which I have on for less than six hours a day and I think my plants are okay. They won't win any prizes but I just divided a crypt and my dwarf sag has gone crazy. 
I also have an internal filter and when that bungs up I notice that the plants start to look dirty. You want so see your plants waving in it.  You don't want the debris in your aquarium collecting in your plant leaves.  It's an algae magnet.


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## ceg4048 (6 Aug 2018)

Nick Norman said:


> I first had just the up atomiser and had lots of micro bubbles which collected on the surface and large bubbles now and again. I added the filter booster for the co2 to dissolve in before reaching the tank. It has no media in, just a bucket with the flow going in through the top and out through the bottom. It seams to work as I have no bubbles in the tank.


OK, well, I mean generally, when you have that symptom of bubbles collecting on the surface, it means that the flow rate is poor and the bubbles are not making it to the bottom of the tank. The result is that the CO2 concentration is high near the water's surface, but is low in the plant beds where it is needed the most. Even if your booster does a better job of dissolving the bubbles, the problem of poor flow still exists and so the well dissolved water remains nearer the surface and is not being pushed down to the substrate.



Nick Norman said:


> The sunsun filter isn't very strong. I tested it with and without the heater and filter booster, just the spray bar at tank height and it took the same time to fill a 30ltr bucket. (400 lph) The filter has in it course filter sponge in one tray and a bag of ceramic filter rings in each of the other two.


This is not atypical of filters and pumps in general. Manufacturers claims are always optimistic. 40% of rated flow is normal when the filter is sitting below the water level and is filled with media. The ceramic rings do the most damage to flow rate. I would suggest to replace these with something more light weight such as activated carbon, or simply reduce the amount of the rigs by 50% or more. See if the flow improves.



Nick Norman said:


> I will re position the power head and filter as suggested and see if I can get any more flow out of the filter. I could try another power head or maybe get a better filter. Then will trim, clean as advised and do two weekly 50% water changes and see what happens.
> 
> If i was to upgrade the filter what filter would give me enough flow along the whole length of the tank without the need for powerheads? What lph would I need as the filters don't produce stated flow? would this be achievable with one filter or would i need two?


Well, I dislike advising people to spend more money if there is an inexpensive way to improve the tank. I reckon the best way is to start with experimentation of the positioning. Sometimes that does the trick. Also, you mentioned that you changed the hole sizes in the spraybar. Sometimes this actually has negative consequences. It is more important to have a high mass flow rate, not necessarily a higher velocity. We want to move as much water with high momentum down to the bottom. If you restrict the hole size too much then you actually reduce the mass flow rate.

The next cheaper thing of course, is to use another powerhead, but then the tank starts to look  really cheesy with rocket boosters strapped to the back of the tank.

Ideally, a 120L tank should use a 1200 LPH rated filter, but this Sun Sun unit should work. You should be able to eek out perhaps nearly another 100 LPH by reducing or eliminating those noodles. and better positioning of the bar and powerhead should help a lot. You really ought not to need a additional or a different filter. Also make sure your hoses are not being kinked somewhere along the circuit.

Have a go with these tricks first and see how it goes.

Cheers,


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## rebel (6 Aug 2018)

ceg4048 said:


> symptom of bubbles collecting on the surface, it means that the flow rate is poor and the bubbles are not making it to the bottom of the tank. The result is that the CO2 concentration is high near the water's surface, but is low in the plant beds where it is needed the most. Even if your booster does a better job of dissolving the bubbles, the problem of poor flow still exists and so the well dissolved water remains nearer the surface and is not being pushed down to the substrate.


Agree with this. Sometimes this indicates poor O2 as there is a oily film in the surface preventing the bubbles from bursting. A skimmer of the sorts may help.

A cheaper way to do this is to lift your output to cause some turbulance.


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## Zeus. (6 Aug 2018)

ceg4048 said:


> This is a flow distribution problem and has nothing to do with light.
> Leggy growth is a symptom of poor flow/distribution.



Thanks for correcting us lesser mortals Think there may off been a dimensional parrelel universe vortex issue with twin locations locally around me and Rebel which would account for the changes in the laws of our universe 
Flow/distribution is King when injecting CO2 and always the first
Cultrip one should investigate/suspect.



ceg4048 said:


> sizes in the spraybar. Sometimes this actually has negative consequences. It is more important to have a high mass flow rate, not necessarily a higher velocity. We want to move as much water with high momentum down to the bottom. If you restrict the hole size too much then you actually reduce the mass flow rate.



Very tricky getting to hole size right IME  More output can be less turnover like no spray compared to spraybars. Then spraybar positioning, angle, more holes, less holes, bigger, smaller  trail and error, rinse repeat.


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## Nick Norman (6 Aug 2018)

ceg4048 said:


> The ceramic rings do the most damage to flow rate. I would suggest to replace these with something more light weight such as activated carbon, or simply reduce the amount of the rigs by 50% or more


How much biological filtration do i need for 140ltr (120ltr with hardscape) tank? will one large fist size bag of ceramic rings with a layer of 25 mm course foam be enough?

Think I have a bag of active carbon somewhere, if I left it in permanently would it act as biological filtration? I could replace one of the bags of the ceramic rings or maybe both.

i will have a play around to see what if I can get any more flow out of the filter, test to see at what point the flow is being lost. Maybe I can improve the spray bar and connections.

Cheers.


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## Zeus. (6 Aug 2018)

Nick No:thumbup:rman said:


> How much biological filtration do i need for 140ltr (120ltr with hardscape) tank? will one large fist size bag of ceramic rings with a layer of 25 mm course foam be enough?



bio media for fluval 305


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## dw1305 (6 Aug 2018)

Hi all, 





Nick Norman said:


> So what next? I don’t want to give up but don’t want to waste any more money and time on stuff if it’s not going to improve anything. I have considered starting again with new plants and substrate but don't want to end back where i am now.


I think you should be all right, and that your plants will eventually grow, if you can sort out your CO2 issues. 





Nick Norman said:


> I had some luck with some plants (mainly ferns, anubias and crypts)......


These are good plants for long term set ups, a lot of people eventually actually get fed up with the constant trimming and re-planting that stems require.

From the pictures your Amazon Frogbit (_Limnobium laevigatum_) looks pretty healthy, which is a promising start.


That suggests that it isn't a mineral nutrient issue, which really only leaves light and CO2 distribution as possibilities limiting plant growth.

Having said that if you don't dose any magnesium (Mg)? I would add some. "Epsom salts" are a cheap option, and about 10% magnesium. Water hardness in the States tends to include quite a lot of magnesium, due to <"geological reasons">, but that isn't true in the UK, where we usually need to add magnesium.  

Have a look at the <"Duckweed Index">, it uses the leaf health and leaf colour of a floating plant (originally "Duckweed" _Lemna minor, _but Amazon Forgbit is a better option) as an indicator of mineral nutrient levels.

Because Amazon Frogbit is a floating plant it has access to both aerial CO2 (400ppm CO2), and higher light intensity, than your submerged plants.

cheers Darrel


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## HiNtZ (6 Aug 2018)

That's a nice bit of frogbit


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## ceg4048 (6 Aug 2018)

Nick Norman said:


> How much biological filtration do i need for 140ltr (120ltr with hardscape) tank? will one large fist size bag of ceramic rings with a layer of 25 mm course foam be enough?


The primary purpose of the ceramic rings is actually to slow the flow so that the larger particles of debris fall out of solution and to be trapped within the maze of rings. They do house bacteria, like any whetted surface but that is not their main function. That's why it's so critical to avoid these and to find better solution to mechanical filtration. Medium density foam, alfagrog, or scrrubbies work just fine.


Nick Norman said:


> Think I have a bag of active carbon somewhere, if I left it in permanently would it act as biological filtration? I could replace one of the bags of the ceramic rings or maybe both.


Yes, yes and yes!

Cheers,


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## ceg4048 (6 Aug 2018)

Zeus. said:


> Very tricky getting to hole size right IME  More output can be less turnover like no spray compared to spraybars. Then spraybar positioning, angle, more holes, less holes, bigger, smaller  trail and error, rinse repeat.


Yeah, for sure mate. What I do is to buy a length of cheap PVC tubing and then to try different lengths with different hole sizes. I try to get away with as short a length as I can with as large a hole size as I can. Sometime I use variable hole sizes along the bar. So for example you can try smaller holes at the front end (first two or three holes) so as not to drop the pressure too much and then larger holes the rest of the way. Check the flow rate with the bucket and see what works.


Zeus. said:


> Flow/distribution is King when injecting CO2 and always the first
> Cultrip one should investigate/suspect.


Definitely. Leggy growth is a sure sign of low CO2/O2 stress due to poor flow. The elongation between nodes is a result of poor gas exchange resulting in the buildup of the gaseous hormone Ethylene.

Have a look at the article for example https://academic.oup.com/aob/article/101/2/229/186522

I mention many times that in a CO2 enriched planted tank, flow is King and these are some of the top reasons. Gas exchange in a flooded plant is more important than anything else. It is more important than light and more even than nutrients.

Cheers,


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## Zeus. (6 Aug 2018)

ceg4048 said:


> Have a look at the article for example https://academic.oup.com/aob/article/101/2/229/186522



So correct me if I understand it wrong, but the production of the Ethylene by the researchers 

Varies from plant species but it some it's the low [O2] found in deeper stagnating water is what stimulates the ethylene profuction which leads to elongation of the stems, but in other species the mystery pathway does not include an O2-requiring step. Most of the research was done on rice. I can understand the benefit of this to the plant OFC

When I have done a blackout intentionally and unintentionally I have observed elongation of stems of MC and crpyts as if the plants are trying to reach more light. During the blackouts the flow was unchanged but the elongation was still present? Maybe this is a different reason for elongation due to extended periods of no light! Which why us lesser mortals think elongation is due to not enough light?


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## rebel (7 Aug 2018)

I am very curious to see how this turns out. 

Either way, if you are curious, just change one thing at a time and wait for two weeks before changing another. Keep a journal.


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## Nick Norman (7 Aug 2018)

Had a play around with the sunsun filter last night. As it is it took 3 min to fill 20ltr, (400lph). Did the same without any media in and it still took 3 min. The only other difference was the tank water level was lower. I did the same with out anything inline and it still took 3 min. I am surprised, maybe one of the connections is restricting the flow. There isn't much space in the cabinet and i made a bit of a mess, I will take it out into the garden on the weekend and see if i can work out how to get more out of it.

I took out one of the bags or ceramic rings for now, I will replace the other one with activated carbon next time. I have re positioned the sraybar and powerhead towards the middle with equal spacing to the side walls. The flow does look better.

Cheers.


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## ceg4048 (7 Aug 2018)

Hi Karl,
            The elongation is triggered by a combination of O2 and CO2 shortfall. As you mention, other things are happening during the blackout as carbohydrates are consumed and are not replaced, so there are some structural issues going on as well as a fall in Oxygen production.

The reference listed does describe rice, which is only semi-aquatic. It's difficult to find articles which are restricted to aquarium species. Here is another article comparing several Rumex species, aquatic versus non-aquatic. The pdf is a free download http://www.plantphysiol.org/content/94/3/1071.long

There are a lot of circumstantial evidence which leads to misdiagnosis.
Crypt issues are probably the most misdiagnosed when 95% of the time it's a CO2 issue.

If you check the OP's data, he is using 2 Aquabars plus a third LED strip. That's a lot of light.

Our Ian Holdich posted a video of his tank (not sure what size) with 2 Aquabars.
Now, I assume these are similar if not the same and the tank is fine. If you look closely, you 'll see that he has paid attention to flow/distribution.


Cheers,


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## Marc Davis (8 Aug 2018)

I'm not claiming to be an expert here because i'm far from it.

First of all. I do like your layout and tank. The first thing i notice though is that it looks low lit. combine that with high amounts of ferts and your asking for algae. I had the same problem.

I then added a 20w LED floodlight and DIY yeast/sugar co2 to the tank and hair algae and BBA disappeared.
I then lowered my ferts from daily dosing to just when i do a water change (once a week) with a normal recommended daily dose.

first pic is just after i added the floodlight (previously was 2x T8's which gave similar light level to yours) and DIY co2 then 2nd pic is 2 weeks later and then last pic is 4 weeks later:



 


 


 

So im not suggesting what im saying is fact at all, im just documenting what i did to combat a similar situation to yours.

Hope it all goes well for you.


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## Nick Norman (8 Aug 2018)

ceg4048 said:


> If you check the OP's data, he is using 2 Aquabars plus a third LED strip. That's a lot of light.
> 
> Our Ian Holdich posted a video of his tank (not sure what size) with 2 Aquabars.
> Now, I assume these are similar if not the same and the tank is fine. If you look closely, you 'll see that he has paid attention to flow/distribution.


Yes they are the same lights, the tank looks a bit smaller but not much. I have also seen another tank on here with the same lights and healthy plants which is why I have been reluctant to increase the light.

 Mark davis, your tank does look healthy, hopefully I can get growth like that. I am going to focus on flow first, if that doesn't give results I will move on to lights/ferts.

Also going to start dosing epsom salts as Darrel suggested, is about 4ppm a week enough?

Cheers.


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## rebel (9 Aug 2018)

Do one thing at a time and observe for two weeks.

Very keen to hear your results!!


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## Nick Norman (12 Aug 2018)

I tested the filter properly today to see if I could improve the flow. i tested with a head of 120cm same as tank and just course/medium filter sponge.

With just hoses: 550lph
with spraybar + connections: 465lph
with just hoses and filter booster and heater: 445lph
with spraybar filter booster, heater and spraybar: 400lph

so, if I lost the filter booster and made a diy spraybar and connections i could eke out more flow,..or i buy a new bigger filter.

i'm leaning towards getting a bigger filter. I would like to not have the powerhead as it doesn't look good and not sure if the flow from it helps that much. I would like a filter that would produce enough flow to have a diy spray bar across the length of the tank reaching the front glass. I could keep the co2, reactor and heater on the current filter if it restricted flow too much on a single bigger filter. But would probable have to have two spraybars.

So far the changes I have made:
-Move the power head and spraybar more central with even gap from side walls. 
-I have removed the ceramic rings and replaced with chopped up course filter sponge. Will add activated carbon when i gets a net bag to put it in. 
-Started dosing epsom salt.

Still need to trim and get rid of as much algae as i can and see if anything improves. Will do an extra water change a week.
In the meantime I will look into filters. I was thinking i would need a filter like jbl e1501 or similar. Would a rating of 1500lph be enough?

Cheers.


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## Iain Sutherland (12 Aug 2018)

The jbl's are good filters and bulletproof. The 1501 should be plenty for your size tank, you may even end up running slightly reduced flow.
Another choice I have heard is good but haven't tried personally is the oase 600 (available from aquarium gardens), they have the same flow rating but have the added advantage of a built in heater and prefilter meaning you don't need to open it to clean it!



Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


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## Nick Norman (12 Aug 2018)

Iain Sutherland said:


> Another choice I have heard is good but haven't tried personally is the oase 600 (available from aquarium gardens), they have the same flow rating but have the added advantage of a built in heater


I looked at this filter but have not long bough a hydor inline heater! It looks good, would be good to have more space in the cabinet.


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## Nick Norman (26 Aug 2018)

So I went for a JBL 1502. I made a temporary spray bar extender to run the full length. The flow is good but with the filter booster/reactor it reduces quite a lot. Will see how things go, maybe I should loose the filter booster and just use the up inline atomiser? The photo is with the filter booster.

I have cleaned a lot of the algae and pulled up all the stems and re planted the healthy tops. I have also added some more aquasoil and hardscape to the back right to give more height and lift the plants up. I will be doing regular water changes to help remove what ammonia comes out of the soil.

Will see how things go over the next few weeks.


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## Zeus. (26 Aug 2018)

Plant density is bit on the low side ATM plus that's a lot of holes in the spraybar! You might get a better tank turnover if you tape some up- 'trail and error'


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## Edvet (27 Aug 2018)

Agree with Zeus, the " jets" should hit the front pane with some force, these don't reach


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## david watson (27 Aug 2018)

I just read this tread and it really hit home as I’m having some of the same issues. I have tweeked the flow and I’m now seeing almost all my plants pearling. 

Previously only a select few where pearling.

Clearly you all know your stuff. 

Many thanks 
Dave


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## Nick Norman (29 Aug 2018)

Hello, I have made some more changes to improve the flow. I have removed to filter booster for now using just the up atomiser for diffusion, will have to put up with a fizzy tank for now. Have also cut the hoses as short as they can be without any bends.

The flow seams better, it reaches the front glass but not with much force! When i look in the end of the tank i can see the micro bubbles going straight down the front glass, across the bottom of the tank through the plants then rising at the back glass, and throughout the tank. It look even through the length of the tank as well.

Should I also tape up a few holes to give the spray more force? is it necessary to hit the front glass with force?

Thanks.


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## Edvet (30 Aug 2018)

You need the watermovement to reach each nook and crannie in the tank, seeing all the plants move gently "in the breeze". I don't say  youy can't reach it with this congfiguration, but i think you won't. Taping some holes is easy and cheap. i would try it at least.


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## Nick Norman (2 Sep 2018)

I have blocked 5 holes and now the spray reaches the front glass with a bit of force. All the plants seam to be moving.

I will do another ph profile when i get a chance and move the drop checker around the tank to see if the flow is good.

How long does it take for bacteria to colonize on new media/foam? I put the foam from the old filter in the new one, i want to take it out at some point as there is to much foam in there.

Thanks


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (2 Sep 2018)

Removing that foam may well increase flow rates too...


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## Andrew Butler (2 Sep 2018)

Only just came across this thread but the filter boosters will kill your flow; it's okay for the likes of @Zeus. as he has a big filter and set it up on a bypass.
I get micro bubbles in my tank from my CO2 atomizer as I think a lot of people do also - interested to hear if anyone has a fix for this without using something like a chamber that restricts flow.
That said if you have a steriliser then you get a haze from that also.
I'm currently having a play around with my spraybars as I want a stronger output from them.
I think it's easy and cheap enough to make your own and personally I use a tee in the middle so flow is sent more evenly both ways along the spraybar.
Just my opinion though.


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## Nick Norman (2 Sep 2018)

Matt @ ScapeEasy said:


> Removing that foam may well increase flow rates too...


I was hoping it might help. Was going to only have foam in the first tray then a small amount of either activated carbon or alfagrog in the other two, not sure which one will restrict flow the least but have good surface area.



Andrew Butler said:


> personally I use a tee in the middle so flow is sent more evenly both ways along the spraybar


That's a good idea, Does the T restrict the flow at all? i suppose it is no more restrictive than a L bend. 
I thought about having different size holes along the bar to even out the flow as I have read has worked for others.
I will try a few thing then make an acrylic spray bar when i have worked out what works best.


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (2 Sep 2018)

Random thought... does removing 'restrictions' make the filter less noisy too??


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## Andrew Butler (2 Sep 2018)

Nick Norman said:


> Does the T restrict the flow at all?


Yes, any bends will restrict flow is the short answer but I have an arrangement of 2 x 90s joined together up and over the back of my aquarium to a tee and then take my spraybar off either way from there which has not restricted the performance of my
filter. I know the filter is running at full as my filter has a screen on it showing flow which is very useful (Fluval G6).

The photos below might give you an idea of my arrangement, any questions just ask.


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## Nick Norman (2 Dec 2018)

It has been three months now and I am having some success so I thought I would post an update with the changes I have made.

After installing the JBL 1502 filter I bought a length of pipe and played around with different hole sizes and position to get the best flow. I found that I the flow was stronger at the end of the spraybar so i put the holes closer together at the first part of the bar gradually getting further apart towards the end. I think the flow is quite good now with some force hitting the front glass.

Unfortunately my up inline atomiser got a pinhole leak in the top plastic, I repaired it with araldite which worked but after a will it sprung other leaks so I got a JBL atomiser which seams much better made. This meant It was a few weeks until I could monitor if the changes had worked.

The plants did improve a bit but still grew slow and the black algae still grew on leaf edges. I continued extra water changes and kept the tank and filter clean removing what algae i could to see if things improved. Unfortunately things continued much the same. I decided the only thing left to try was more light.

I purchased a Twinstar 600s with a hinterfeld s2-pro controller. I Started the light at 60% and increased to 70% after two weeks. The rotala rotundifolia showed immediate improvement with bigger healthier leaves. Soon the s. repens started growing bigger healthier leaves as well. Two weeks on I increased the light to 80% and now the black algae has disappeared for the leaves as I have been replanting the healthy tops and so far hasn't come back. It's still on the rocks. It has only been at 80% for 2 weeks now so early days. The Rotala is also now showing some red.

I had removed all the monti carlo as it had mostly all died so I will get some more and see if I can get a carpet to grow.

I think without improving the flow first I would still have problems but it's the extra light that has improved things as far as I can tell. It seams with healthier plants no BBA.

Hopefully things continue to improve! 

(Photos of the tank are from when I added the light so a month or so old)


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## Iskánder Vigoa (4 Dec 2018)

I'm stoned by all the work you do to maintain your tanks, I don't know, I just placed my plants, the lights and that was it, I have never done two 50% water change a week, but I mean NEVER, no ferts no co2, I even have to trim from time to time due to all the grow, maybe could be the water parameters where you live or something but for all you are doing your plants should be OK


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## Nick Norman (4 Dec 2018)

Iskánder Vigoa said:


> I'm stoned by all the work you do to maintain your tanks, I don't know, I just placed my plants, the lights and that was it, I have never done two 50% water change a week, but I mean NEVER, no ferts no co2, I even have to trim from time to time due to all the grow



I thought that's what it was going to be like, and it was for a bit. As time went on I changed things and tried different plants, maintaining the look and growth got more difficult. I probably could have maintained a healthy tank with only minor changes and little effort if i new what was needed, but I don't so I did everything to cover all bases. Some things probable made thinks worse but I think I have learnt a lot along the way.

I have seen photos of great looking tanks from people just starting but that's not how it worked for me.


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## Lawson (4 Dec 2018)

Hello Nick,
I have had more or less all the problems that you have encountered in trying to grow aquatic plants. I set up a tank about 5 months ago with very poor results and while trying to find reasons for my continuing failures I came across and joined Ukaps and I read everything I could to try and find answers. 

I strongly suspect that my biggest problem was water circulation,  hindered because I cannot use an external power filter due to the fact that I live in an apartment block,  and years ago I flooded a neighbour below when the filter leaked emptying my tank,  and now I will only use an internal filter. 

Now with the use off 2 powerheads along with the internal filter I think I am starting to see some light at the end of the tunnel. I have to also thank the great advice that the members kindly pass on through all the articles and answers that are to be found here.

I hope that things continue to improve for both of us.


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