# In search of substrate for 200x60x70 cm aquarium



## Costa (20 Oct 2016)

Hi folks,
First time poster, long time lurker.
I'm setting up my first big tank 2m in length and I've gotten some great aquaskape ideas off ukaps so thank you all.

I'm currently in the market for substrate. My aim is to have a nice garden of mid to advanced difficulty plants, and relatively low pH (the tank will house mostly characins and other peaceful S. American species). I will be needing ca. 130kg of substrate, and that's a hell of a lot of money considering that 9kg cost around £25 at best.

I'm looking for substrate ideas from individuals experienced in similar sized planted tanks. I've read the tutorials on the forum and tried the dirtied tank approach before (my experience was bad I'm afraid).

Just FYI I'm OK to spend money on the tank, but I want to cut through the marketing bs and just get something that works well for the long term. I'm not I'm a rush to get fish in, my aim is to have a solid ecosystem.

Thank you
Costa


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## Tim Harrison (20 Oct 2016)

What happened with the dirted tank? 

I know if ever I set up a tank that size it would be my go to substrate.


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## alto (21 Oct 2016)

Costa said:


> My aim is to have a nice garden of mid to advanced difficulty plants, and relatively low pH



Do you have planted tank experience (besides the dirt disappointment)?
Much simpler to practise in a 60cm tank than leaping into a 200cm.

Take some time to look at what others have done in large tanks, such as George Farmer's Custom eaReef 1200s - mixed media use means that rather less aquarium soil (such as Tropica etc) is needed while providing interest

If planning a "dirted" tank, I'd again look for examples of large tanks that you admire.

Re your comment on "low pH". I'd not fight local tap water conditions in such a large tank unless you're also investing in a house RO etc water treatment ... life is just so much simpler when using tap water

Sounds an impressive project


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## Costa (22 Oct 2016)

Thank you for the replies

My first (and currently my main tank) is a diy cube of 60x60x60. I tried the dirtied substrate approach with this tank and on day 3 the mangrove wood piece I had in the tank was covered by white fungus and the water smelled really bad. The tank was cleaned and fluval stratum was used which I've been very happy with for a year now, fully planted with Eleocharis grass, anubias and other medium-difficulty plants (DIY CO2 also supplied, ca 1-2 bps). 

The cost of 20 stratum bags is substantial, which is why I'm open to suggestions.

Thank you for the link, I will surely read through the posts and will watch the videos.

Also thanks for the point on the pH; I want to try and maintain a relatively low GH and kH, ideally via a peat rich substrate, which is another reason why I am attracted to the idea of staying off the beaten path substrate-wise. But then again the action of peat progressively dies off  and water changes become much more complex.

What I was initially thinking was 2-3mm lava gravel with some peat sphagnum (either mixed in the gravel or in bags underneath), would you think of this?

Thanks again and have a pleasant evening


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## dean (22 Oct 2016)

I'm sure the white fungus wasn't due to the dirt substrate 
Lots of wood develops white fungus on at when first submerged then it stops 
Or take out just the wood 
And when the wife, mum or other person whose in charge of the dishwasher goes out stick it in it for a long hot wash 
Obviously no detergents 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dw1305 (22 Oct 2016)

Hi all,





Costa said:


> What I was initially thinking was 2-3mm lava gravel with some peat sphagnum (either mixed in the gravel or in bags underneath), would you think of this?


I think it would be all right, I was going to suggest pool filter sand.

cheer Darrel


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## Courtneybst (23 Oct 2016)

If I was doing a tank that size I'd go with capped dirt. It's the most economical option. 

I used Cal Aqua Black Earth on my 4ft tank and even that took 4 bags, which was expensive enough.


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## foxfish (23 Oct 2016)

Do you intend to use injected Co2, I would guess not, but I assume you do want to grow plants.
On that basis a decomposing soil base capped with some inert sand, gravel, larva etc would be my suggestion.


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## Costa (23 Oct 2016)

Thanks again for the responses,

I am planning on buying a 5 or 7 kg CO2 tank and pair it with one of the sets sold at co2art or co2supermarket, but that's going to happen in the next 4-5 months (budget limitation).

How does CO2 affect the type and quality of substrate? Also, what's the best way to mix peat with lava or sand to ensure that I don't end up with a loose substrate?

Thanks


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## sciencefiction (23 Oct 2016)

It depends what type of plants you want to grow.
If its just some low tech plants like crypts, anubias, etc...then all you need is a sand substrate. In a year or so the sand will have matured enough to grow plants really well and plants do grow well in sand. It's easy to plant as well and easy to clean.

 In the mean time you can plant the plants in pots and shallow trays around the tank using a layer of soil and a cap. The soil you can get from the garden centre.

That's what I am doing in my latest tank to avoid the mess and to be able to actually replace the soil/pots, plants easier in time.  In a large tank it gets hard in time when everything overgrows.
I plant my pots with hydroton clay pebbles at the bottom(to allow drainage), then a soil layer, then sand or small gravel on top to lock the soil. You can disguise the pots with some stones if you want.  You can drill holes at the bottom of the pots.

The sand is best if its not too fine but not too big. Something like 0.6 to 1mm grain size will do. You may be able to find pool filter sand for cheap. Play sand is way too fine.


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## foxfish (23 Oct 2016)

[QUOTE="Costa, post: 463092, member: 15534"
How does CO2 affect the type and quality of substrate?
Thanks[/QUOTE]
Well a decomposing substrate will produce a certain amount of C02 & that can help the plants but if you inject C02 then any inert substrate will be fine.
Of course you will get lots of opinions but if you use C02 & EI fertilisation there is no need to use any nutrients in the substrate.
However an open structure substrate like baked clay, cat litter etc  will absorb the EI ferts & feed the roots as well.


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## Costa (24 Oct 2016)

sciencefiction said:


> It depends what type of plants you want to grow.
> If its just some low tech plants like crypts, anubias, etc...then all you need is a sand substrate. In a year or so the sand will have matured enough to grow plants really well and plants do grow well in sand. It's easy to plant as well and easy to clean.
> 
> In the mean time you can plant the plants in pots and shallow trays around the tank using a layer of soil and a cap. The soil you can get from the garden centre.
> ...




Thank you for the message, this is a very good plan indeed.

Question:

Do you grow immersed or emersed? I'm asking because I read in the Plants section of UKAPS that people grow plants in jars (i.e. no holes at the bottom) and do water changes every day (or every other day at most).

To answer your question on the plants I have in mind, I am aiming towards a nice, thick carpet in the foreground (something like Eleocharis spp or ideally Cuba) and some Anubias and taller plants towards the back. I've seen some great plant ideas here in UKAPS and I'm just glad I have 2 x 0.6 meters to play with.

Bottom line is, there are so many interesting and rare plants and I sure as hell don't want my choice of substrate to be the limiting factor of what I can grow.

Thanks again all


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## sciencefiction (24 Oct 2016)

I do both emersed and submerged. If the tank is going to be high tech, the substrate doesnt matter much. For a low tech tank soil layer or potted plants would be my choice if you want the plants to grow relatively well.


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## Costa (28 Oct 2016)

So after a lot of research and discussions (thanks UKAPS) I have concluded on this:

Bottom thin layer (few mm) of fert powder (commercially available eg ADA or something like Miracle Grow fert), followed by
5-6cm/2-3" of substrate mix comprising of
Clay (laterite) 15%
Peat sphangum 25%
Top soil 60%

3cm/1-1.5" of fine gravel
One thing I don't know and I haven't been able to find the answer to is how long the peat water-softening effect will last for. I am planning to have a C & S American biotope (tetras & hatchetfish) and want to create as natural a water chemistry as possible (although admittedly all tetras in fish stores are kept in tap water). I will consider it a success if I manage to create an environment where my fishes will be happy to breed.

I am also considering dry starting the aquarium (DSM), what do you guys think?

Thanks again
Costa


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## sciencefiction (28 Oct 2016)

Costa said:


> Bottom thin layer (few mm) of fert powder (commercially available eg ADA or something like Miracle Grow fert), followed by
> 
> 5-6cm/2-3" of substrate mix comprising of
> Clay (laterite) 15%
> ...



This sounds trouble to me. The substrate is way too much, deep. You need a 2 inch substrate including the base and cap, whatever the individual components. I'd have the clay/peat/topsoil mix 1 inch max, then 1.5 inch gravel. More is not better or more sustainable, its the opposite


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## Costa (28 Oct 2016)

By trouble you mean anaerobic pockets forming up?

I'm just concerned about the net amount of base substrate available for root formation and by extension plant growth, this is why I consider a thiker base. 

Also what would you think about DSM?

Thanks again


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## sciencefiction (28 Oct 2016)

Costa said:


> I'm just concerned about the net amount of base substrate available for root formation and by extension plant growth



You'll have no problem with root formation in a thinner substrate layer. The roots grow horizontally and the substrate is oxygenated easier, safer for the fish too and healthier for the plants.  There is absolutely no need for deeper substrate in aquariums. If you do go with a deeper substrate, ensure there is plenty of oxygen to prevent killing stock/plants accidentally.


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## alto (28 Oct 2016)

Tropica has run many planted tanks using the method shown in this video

Layout 97 by George Farmer
*Substrate: * Tropica substrate
*Gravel: * Råda sand 0,8-1,2 mm
CO2 & Water Column Fertilizers

Note how the gravel may still be banked - shown more clearly in this
Layout 95 by Grégoire Wolinski

I strongly recommend that you set up a trial 60cm tank with your substrate system & chosen fertilizer etc regime before embarking on the 200cm tank project... you don't mention any detail re tank dimensions, lighting etc - if you don't want to retain the 60cm, you could easily adapt lighting,filters etc intended for the 200cm in this project


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## Costa (28 Oct 2016)

Right, so you guys don't follow DSM at all, which is fair enough. 

I don't have any more tanks  I've got a 40L breeding tank for my tetras, a 130L 55cm cube which is my "main" tetras tank and now this 2 x 0.6 x 0.6 meter tank (700L/190USG gross) which is currently empty.

You are right about my omission to discuss about lights/CO2

CO2 - I was planning to buy a 5kg CO2 tank but then I read about DSM and at this point I am questioning how necessary CO2 injection would be after DSM (which I've never tried - my cube currently runs with diy CO2 and Fluval Stratum but overall plant growth blows)

Lights - Undecided. I was initially planning to set up a DIY hanging bar and fix 3 or 4 40W 6000K led floodlights on top of the tank. I want to have good lights but really can't afford the super expensive ones (I've seen some prices for leds that go over 1000 GBP)

Open to suggestions and feedback

Thanks
Costa


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## sciencefiction (28 Oct 2016)

If you are going to inject CO2, why don't you try just a small amount. There is evidence to suggest that 10ppm is plenty sufficient and even optimal for most plants.  Just do a trickle of it. I'd do it if I wanted to bother with more gear around tanks and refilling co2 bottles, especially more difficult in a large tank.

As for flood lights, I recently got one for the first time, same reason as yours...I didn't want to spend crazy money although between the gooseneck and the light itself, it was not cheap either. The plants responded pretty fast although right now I've got the typical low tech plants only.  I am guessing long term it will work out as well as any other light based on my short experience.  I'll be getting another one same flood light to bump the intensity a notch once I get more plants. The one I got is also pretty good looking and not obstructive. It's a slim line version. The only problem is they have wide angle so there will be some spillage but mine is over a round Rubbermaid pond and its pretty much utilized apart from some shimmering on the wall. Anyway, don't be put off by flood lights. Just research their specs first as they differ in quality.


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## foxfish (28 Oct 2016)

DSM is popular with some folk, the plants get a good start and root very well but, they then have to go from 400ppm of atmospheric C02 down to 30ppm when the tank is flooded & that is only if you can get 30ppm in a big tank. The resulting die off of foliage could be an issue!
I really enjoy setting up a new tank with the dry start method, the plants just go mad if you get it right but lots of people fail with this method due to lack of humidity.


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## sciencefiction (28 Oct 2016)

DSM is good for attaching moss to wood permanently without it detaching itself in time. Other than that, I'd use the time and patience to grow the plants under water, where they can adapt to permanent conditions. If you are going to have soil in the bottom layer of the substrate, provided you do it right, the plants will explode in a month or two. I'd would do no ferts of any kind for at least 6 months, then dose lightly.  A bit of co2, and flow around the tank would keep the system happy for years to come. There will be problems eventually, but if done right you shouldn't have any issues in a good while. Immediate issues means the tank is not set up right in the first place, e.g. anaerobic substrate, lack of oxygen, not enough light/too much light, etc...I was able to sustain a completely algae free soil tank for about 3 years until I overstocked it. I never even needed to clean the glass in that period. So it's achievable. More is not better and patience is a virtue.

And I am sure you know what you are doing but learn your plants requirements along the way.
Be ready to move plants species around and see where they like it best in your tank. Plant same species of plants in totally different spots around, darker and brighter, more flow, less flow, etc... That's how you get the best outcome and you also learn what the plants you specifically planted in your tank want. Its the same as learning fish requirements.


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## Costa (28 Oct 2016)

sciencefiction said:


> As for flood lights, I recently got one for the first time, same reason as yours...I didn't want to spend crazy money although between the gooseneck and the light itself, it was not cheap either. The plants responded pretty fast although right now I've got the typical low tech plants only.  I am guessing long term it will work out as well as any other light based on my short experience.  I'll be getting another one same flood light to bump the intensity a notch once I get more plants. The one I got is also pretty good looking and not obstructive. It's a slim line version. The only problem is they have wide angle so there will be some spillage but mine is over a round Rubbermaid pond and its pretty much utilized apart from some shimmering on the wall. Anyway, don't be put off by flood lights. Just research their specs first as they differ in quality.



Thanks for the replies

Sciencefiction, a question for you please.

This is my cube light set up. The led flood light sits on some polystyrene tube on top of the aquarium, but there's a glass cover in between the light and the water.






I am guessing (correct me if I'm wrong) that the glass severely reduces the strength of the light, hence the slow growth of my plants. That said, the tank itself is quite bright, the flood light is 6000K strong.

I was thinking about switching the glass cover with egg crate. How have you installed your flood light?

Thanks again
Costa


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## sciencefiction (28 Oct 2016)

Can you get a different angle picture? The light looks quite poor on this picture.  What is the wattage?

Mine is attached to a Kessil gooseneck, only I don't want to buy the kessil lights  The tank is open top. What I noticed is that when I had it over a way smaller tank, it just spilled all the light out, barely anything got inside but then again I had mine hanging over and yours is right on top.   But you are talking about a 200cm long tank which changes things because there is plenty more room for the light to illuminate. The angle of flood lights is about 120' so they will spill light outside if the tank if it is small.

Mine is mainly aimed at my emersed plants, and I still don't have enough plants or light but I'll get a bit more of either. Here are a couple of pics I took recently so you can see the brightness of a 30W flood light over a 125cm diameter round pond.  Please ignore the bad aesthetics because I am more about healthy rather than good looking...Once I make it healthy I'll think about how it looks.


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## Costa (30 Oct 2016)

Thanks for the reply, I appreciate your taking the time to help me out.

Sorry for the bad shot, I can't provide a better picture from where I am.

What you are seeing in the picture is the LED floodlight (30W) sitting on two strips of polystyrene on top of the tank cover, which comprises of a 2mm piece of glass. I am guessing that this is not very efficient for plant growth as the glass cover blocks out a considerable amount of the light lumens?


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## sciencefiction (30 Oct 2016)

Yes, the glass cover is possibly blocking some of it. Try to position the led from a distance and see if it illuminates the tank better.


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## Wacca (8 Apr 2017)

Great answers and help here. I'm getting a 460l tank so I'm following this post with interest. Any update on which route you took and how has your tank performed.


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