# 350L low tech tank algae problems



## drooke

Hi all,

I've recently moved from a 125L tank to a 350L tank - I had some algae issues in the previous tank and want to get them resolved for the new tank. I'm hoping you may be able to help me.

The new tank holds 350L, I have 10L Tropica Plant Substrate capped with about 45KG of play sand. Temperature is about 22-23C with pH of about 7.

*Lighting*
The lighting is 120W in total with the photo period (currently reduced to help with algae):

60W 16.00 - 21.00
60W 17.00 - 22.00

*Filtration/Circulation*
1 x Eheim 2128 Thermo
1 x Hydor Koralia Evo Nano
1 x Hydor Koralia Evo 4000 (17.00 - 21.00)

*Plants*
I don't have many plants:


2 x large Amazon swords (15+" tall)
5 x smaller Amazon swords
20ish Blyxa Japonica
5 stems of Rotala Green Sp.

*Fertilisers*

10ml of Tropica Plant Nutrition+ a week

*Fish*
I have:

4 x Angel fish
4 x German Rams
2 x Dwarf Rainbow fish
5 x Lemon tetras
4 x Neon Tetras
2 x Platy
17 x Corys

I've attached some photos of the algae after acculating for about 3 weeks. I think I have:


Green/Brown dust algae
Hair algae
Some BBA too on plants



















Everything I've read suggests that I need to use CO2 to get this under control. I would like to keep my ongoing costs low and so I'd like to stay low tech if possible. I will consider CO2 if significantly easier though. Please can you help?


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## CeeJay

Hi drooke



			
				drooke said:
			
		

> Everything I've read suggests that I need to use CO2 to get this under control.


In a low tech this is not quite the case. 
What you appear to be suffering from is fluctuating CO2 levels (Hair and BBA at least).
So my first question is, are you doing any water changes? Carrying out water changes on a low tech is an absolute no no, as your tap water contains higher levels of CO2 than your tank. So if you change the water you add CO2, during the next couple of days the plants will use that CO2 and the levels will drop and there's your fluctuating CO2   . Doesn't do the plants any good either.

I have had more grief with my low tech, than I've ever had with my hi tech. I have found silly things like moving a spraybar to increase surface agitation can induce BBA.
I have found a low tech is what is says on the tin, low tech. Don't do anything to it except feed the plants and fish and clean the filter every now and again. I think I've cleaned mine twice in 18 months   . If you have enough plants in the tank, these will assist with the filtration of the water anyway.
If you ever got the urge to do a water change sometime down the line, I would recommend that you stand the new water in a barrel/tub/bath/buckets for 24 hours and this will allow the tapwater CO2 to escape to atmosphere. Agitating the water speeds up this process too. Then, when you add the new water to the tank, the CO2 levels will be around the same as the tank water. Less of a CO2 fluctuation  .
I also note that you have tons of flow around this tank. Whilst it's highly desirable in a hi tech, it is not required in a low tech as the whole pace of life and uptake of nutrients etc is a lot slower. I would reduce this so you have just enough that you don't have any dead spots in the tank. 

My advice for now, would be to stop the water changes (if you are doing any), reduce the flow, clean the glass and trim the infected leaves. 
I would also up the TPN+. I use a lot more than that in my 90 litre low tech    although it has a few more plants than yours.

The brown algae you have could be diatom which happens in most new set ups. Either keep cleaning it off as it appears or get some Oto's to eat it. Either way this will disappear when the tank has fully matured.
I also suspect that the 'Green Dust' algae you refer to is GSA. This is the very reason I upped my (home made) TPN+, it is very low in Phosphates. Clean it off, increase your dosing and it shouldn't come back  
Just a few pointers, hope they help


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## drooke

Hi CeeJay,

Thanks for your reply.

As it happens I have yet to do a decent water change since setting up the tank (about 8 weeks). I did change about 10 litres this week to allow me to clean the filter, but this was after I took the photos.

I'm not sure that I could commit to never changing the water as I need to ensure the health of my fish. So it sounds like I have two options:

- leave replacement water to stand for 24 hours to reduce CO2 level
- go high tech to stabilise CO2 level

I'm not too sure the first option is viable with the volume of water i would have to let stand. Perhaps I need to read up about the second option.

I shall try increasing the TPN+ dosage to 20ml a week and see what difference that makes for now.

Cheers,

Dan


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## CeeJay

Hi Dan


			
				drooke said:
			
		

> I'm not sure that I could commit to never changing the water as I need to ensure the health of my fish.


The health of your fish will be taken care of by the plant mass.
Take a look at the third post on page 3 in this thread viewtopic.php?f=19&t=8592&start=20. and pay particular attention to the first pic and it's heading. It was posted by a man called Tom Barr (aka plantbrain). He knows a lot more than most about planted tanks


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## Brenmuk

When I see this situation in my low tech tank its is a cue for me to prune. 

The swords you have look nice and healthy with only the outer leaves having algae growing on them. Sword plants I find are greedy feeders and can dominate other plants when they get growing. I am often quite brutal with them when they need a good prune sometimes all the way back to only 1 or 2 new leaves. When I do this algae stops growing and the other plants start growing.

As you noted most of the algae that you have is a sign of lack of CO2, you can either up the amount of CO2 or reduce the amount of plant biomass and reduce CO2 demand. I think with sword plants though you could end up chasing your tail. 

I would not reduce your light levels any further I might be tempted to increase the photo period a bit. I would also be tempted to add floating plants, these can use aerial CO2 and provide some shade (might be a better option to reducing the photo period any further).  

I don't have rams but I do have a pair of angels which spawn all the time (and eat their eggs   ) and I don't do regular water changes. I do a small w/c's every now and then when I maintain the filter. Perhaps rams are more sensitive to water conditions?


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## dw1305

Hi all,


> Carrying out water changes on a low tech is an absolute no no, as your tap water contains higher levels of CO2 than your tank. So if you change the water you add CO2, during the next couple of days the plants will use that CO2 and the levels will drop and there's your fluctuating CO2  . Doesn't do the plants any good either.


 I'd give exactly the opposite advice, in my experience water changes are an essential for low tech aquaria, unless they have miniscule bioloads. If you use tap water for your water changes let it outgas for a period before use. Personally I remain unconvinced by the water change = CO2 hypothesis. 

My suggestion would be to prune off any heavily algaed leaves, and then go to a regular small water change regime. I use rain-water and 10% a day, although this probably is more than you need. I try and keep all other types of intervention to a minimum, I do add some NPK to the tanks, but at a level far below what you would use for EI or similar.

cheers Darrel


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## CeeJay

Hi Darrel


			
				dw1305 said:
			
		

> I'd give exactly the opposite advice,


  
I can only convey what I see with my own eyes  8)  
My heavily planted low tech tank is very nearly 'a la Walstad', except I haven't got enough bioload to feed the plant mass in it's entirity, so I add NPK and Trace once a week. 
Works for me


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## dw1305

Hi all,


> I can only convey what I see with my own eyes


 Yes it isn't intended as a criticism, we can only go forward as a hobby if we record our personal observations. What has happened is that, by observation and experimentation, you have found out all sorts of things that are different from the excepted norm. This is why this forum is so interesting, it doesn't regurgitate, parrot fashion, a series of "facts". 

The really difficult bit is finding out why we achieve an "acceptable balance" in one tank", but not in another "identical one". This is really the difficulty in all dynamic "ecological" systems you have a lot of "moving parts". 

cheers Darrel


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## CeeJay

Hi Darrel


			
				dw1305 said:
			
		

> Yes it isn't intended as a criticism,


I didn't think it was for one minute. I know your style.
I read your posts with interest, gleaning useful information, which is helping me to understand the ecology better.
Your knowledge of the ecology/chemistry bit is truly impressive and way over my head sometimes.


			
				dw1305 said:
			
		

> The really difficult bit is finding out why we achieve an "acceptable balance" in one tank", but not in another "identical one".


I think this is why I find this hobby so fascinating.

Without trying to sound like I'm blowing my own trumpet, 'hi tech' is relatively easy when you pay attention to all the usual parameters and maintenance that goes with it.
Still got lots to learn about 'low tech' though   .


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## dw1305

Hi all,


> Without trying to sound like I'm blowing my own trumpet, 'hi tech' is relatively easy when you pay attention to all the usual parameters and maintenance that goes with it.


I think that this is the secret of the success of EI, it isn't my "thing", but from what I've gleaned from this forum is that it takes away a lot of the guess work from planted aquarium keeping.

If you keep to the EI recipe, including maintenance, flow, water changes etc. it obviously works. 

For me the down side is that if things do start to deviate from the desired state it can go "wrong" really quickly, probably because of the larger amount of nutrients, light, CO2 etc.  in the system.

I think it's really "horses for courses" approach, and the "best way" is the method that suits you best.

cheers Darrel


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## CeeJay

Hi Darrel


			
				dw1305 said:
			
		

> For me the down side is that if things do start to deviate from the desired state it can go "wrong" really quickly, probably because of the larger amount of nutrients, light, CO2 etc. in the system.


I can vouch for that. I got it wrong in my early days   .



			
				dw1305 said:
			
		

> I think it's really "horses for courses" approach, and the "best way" is the method that suits you best.


Couldn't agree more  
It's a case of deciding how much time you're prepared to put in to the maintenance of your tank.
Most of all, everyone should enjoy the hobby, whichever path they choose


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## drooke

Hi all,

Thanks for the replies. I have been clearing off the glass when the algae grows and have upped the TPN+ dosing to 20ml a week. I haven't noticed any improvement in the length of time it takes to grow back, if anything it seems to grow back a little faster now.

I'm not able to clean the back pane of glass very easily, so I haven't cleaned it. I have noticed that the algae seems to be clearing in patches all by itself now which is good.

Going high tech seems to have it's problems too from the replies, the same with EI. If anyone has any more suggestions for staying low tech I'd appreciate it. In terms of time available for maintenance, I don't have a great deal so low tech suits me well in that respect.

Cheers,

Dan


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## Anonymous

I'd adjust the powerheads (if you can) to no more than 10x /hour flow rate. Aim for a circular movement in your tank so the leaves swing gentle in the flow. 

You can also buy some ancistrus (if you like them of course) and let them clean your glass (at least they have some free food now) .

Cheers,
Mike


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## CeeJay

clonitza said:
			
		

> I'd adjust the powerheads (if you can) to no more than 10x /hour flow rate.


You can get away with a lot less in a low tech


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## drooke

Thanks for the advice. How long should it take to see an improvement? I'm still getting new algae growth on the glass 

I've increased the surface agitation in the tank increasing oxygen levels. I've upped dosing of TPN+ to 20ml a week. The lighting period is the same as originally posted.

Thanks for any further help.


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## Brenmuk

Your algae problems are due to a lack of CO2 so adding more TPN+ which is NPK plus trace elements won't affect the CO2 levels in your tank.
If you have solved the underlying problem you should see a halt in algae growth almost immediately. Your observation that you are getting more algae growth suggests to me that you have not yet tackled the lack of CO2. 

Have you tried pruning the swords back? 

I would be tempted to have mostly slow growing plants in a tank like yours such as crypts, mosses and anubias that are not so demanding for CO2 and do not look too straggly in low light. You could also add shade by growing floating plants and emergent plants such as water lilies etc. Another option is to add more fish/inverts to naturally add more CO2 and/or feed more (just make sure your filtration can handle increase bio load otherwise this can cause more problems than it solves).


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## drooke

I haven't added CO2 to the tank no, I want to stay low tech if I can help it.

So would you say that the swords are high CO2 users? Is this causing low CO2 levels generally which is triggering algae?

I haven't pruned the swords back no, but if this will reduce the CO2 usage and hence improve algae in the tank I can do this. I might have thought this would trigger lots of new growth and so higher CO2 usage. I wouldn't say they look straggly, they're very full and bushy. Interestingly when I first put them in from my old tank, they all had a significant prune and I would say they're now back to their old size if not bigger.


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## roadmaster

Recently set up 300 L Non CO2,low light,low tech tank and quickly discovered that I was trying to run too much light. 
 Under lower light there is less demand for nutrients and CO2. 
I began with T5 bulbs at around 108 watts 6500 K which increased the demand for nutrient's and CO2 which I could not provide. 
Algae thrived and plant's were covered with varius forms.I then lowered the light to 72  watts of compact fluorescent bulbs 6700K and ceased with the water changes and began dosing NPK as suggested by ceg4048  here,who helped you with your 125 L ,and Tom Barr (Tom Barr's NonCO2 method).
Once the plants adapted to the lower CO2 as supplied by the fishes and waste from same,and nutrients were in adequate supply for the relatively low demand,and lighting and photo period was corrected,alage subsided and the plant's began to thrive sans algae.
I'm no expert but after focusing on advice offered by the two mentioned above with regards to low tech planted aquaria, I began to see the light.
I might review what type of bulbs are being used ,all I saw mentioned was 120 watts. If the bulbs are T5 HO then perhaps this could be a bit much and indeed CO2 demand along with nutrients would be higher than under lower lighting such as T8 or CFL in my humble opinion.
My tank has been set up since July of this year and has received two water changes both due to re-planting- re-arranging,
Fish load is approx 45 fish at present (tetras,barbs,cory's oto's,bristlenose)
Agree with other's, if you feel you can't resist water changes ,then store enough water for a water change and perform far fewer of them. CO2 levels in low tech will remain more stable in this way.
As ceg4048 and Mr. Barr have noted, plant's can and do adapt to low CO2 and low light. Nutrient demand is still present but it too is on much lower scale. Large water changes  were the hardest thing for me to refrain from but I can plainly see the benefits and more importantly for me,, the fishes are thriving.
I loaded the tank from the outset with plant's and am just now having to prune so for me,, my goal is being achieved,low maint,low tech (once a week or two NPK),and slow yet steady growth.


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## drooke

Hi roadmaster,

The lights are all T8s with 2 x Sylvannia Gro-lux and 2 x Osram 865 daylights, all 30w.

I have only performed a water change of 5 litres in the time the tank has been setup, about 2 months now, and all the fish are healthy so I haven't felt the need to do more.

So from what you've said, I think I have these aspects right at least.


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## drooke

Hi all,

I thought I'd post an update and ask for a little more advice!

I've been keeping the Amazon swords trimmed back and have yet to do anything but a small water change. In the last 3 weeks pretty much all of the Blyxa has melted away, the Amazon leaves look thin and have holes in and the algae seems to be going strong. I have also lost about 5 fish in this time and there seem to be some health issues in the others at the moment.

I've tested the water and there's no ammonia or nitrates however the pH is reading at the lowest my test will read at 6. The only thing I can think of is the addition of a large piece of redmoor root. Could this be the cause of my recent problems?

I'm very tempted to perform a large water change at the weekend. Can anyone give me another option?

Cheers,

Dan


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## dw1305

Hi all,


> I'm very tempted to perform a large water change at the weekend. Can anyone give me another option?


 I'd definitely go for the water change. I regularly change some water in all my tanks (all low tech.), and I'm pretty sure that it helps with fish health. As soon as I think I have any tank health problems my first move would be a series of water changes, ideally at least 25% a day until all the water is changed. I'd also use these water changes to have a good look for any dead fish etc. that may have been missed.

Because your pH seems very low (it may be the test kit) I'd definitely buffer the water back up to at least 4dKH, you can use the recipe at "James' Planted Tank" <http://www.jsctech.co.uk/theplantedtank/RO.htm>. Diana Walstad says that the "no water change" method was to be used with highly buffered water. The wood would only have caused the pH to drop if there was little buffering in the water.

Very soft water is more difficult to manage than more highly buffered more mineral rich water, and it is only really necessary for a small number of fish, none of which are kept very commonly (because of these constraints).

cheers Darrel


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## drooke

Hi Darrel,

I was going on the basis that water changes were bad for the plants, unless I let it stand to disperse any CO2 in it. Hence why I have done minimal changes.

I don't understand buffering at the moment, however I shall try and do some reading. If you have any good material to read please let me know. Should I be looking to remove the wood if it's lowering my pH? Or is it a problem with the water? The test kit I have is an API master test kit, I believe this is one of the better ones although appreciate they're not wonderfully accurate anyway.

I live in Huddersfield, West Yorkshire. A quick search and look at this page http://www.yorkshirewater.com/your-wate ... dness.aspx suggests that I will have quite soft tap water. What action would you suggest based on this?

Thanks a lot for the continued advice. I really want to have a well balanced tank for both fish and plants.

Dan


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## mlgt

This is indeed a good read. I have a rena 350 as well and just started it up last weekend and is now scaped.
However I have no fish in the tank as I am planning to house around 50 rummynoses in the tank.

Thank you a good read and I will follow your journal and learn from the issues faced with low tech.

I have upgraded in size from a 180l tank to a 350l tank, but downgraded in the aspect of high tech to a low tech because I was fed up of having to continously perform water changes and dose. I have discus and therefore had to perform 1 extra wc each week besides the bigger wc expected.

The only other difference is that I dont have soft water in London and it is alot harder, therefore I am planning to get an RO system as its more beneficiall, but will still cut the ro with tap water to give it a buffer.

Rik


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## dw1305

Hi all,
I'd definitely recommend buffering the waters KH (and probably GH as well) up. I'd use the mix from "James' Planted Tank", or you could add some coral sand or Oyster shell (in a bag in the filter, or near to it). If you "RO right" or another commercial mix they are an extremely expensive way of buying sodium bi-carbonate. With apologies for the cross-post but there are some details here: http://www.plecoplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2484.

I'd ignore everything else until your fish/tank are healthy and stable again, you just need to concentrate on that. Personally I'd keep changing some water every week, you may find that eventually that something like  25% a week is fine.  





> I was going on the basis that water changes were bad for the plants, unless I let it stand to disperse any CO2 in it


 I remain very sceptical about this, CO2 levels will fluctuate naturally in the tank during the lights on/off cycle, so I don't think it is a valid reason. If you are worried you can de-gas the water via a shower head when you top the tank up.  I'd leave the wood in, once you have some more carbonate buffering it won't change the pH. I have got a good explanation for buffering, I'll need to find it but this will do for now:


> All a pH buffer is a compound that is soluble at one pH range, but insoluble in others. They consist of a mixture of a weak acid and its base. It has the property that the pH of the solution changes very little when a small amount of strong acid or base is added to it, so it "buffers" changes in pH.
> 
> This is also how the buffering of KH by calcium carbonate CaCO3 works (in this case the acid and conjugated base base are carbonic acid and bicarbonate).
> 
> CaCO3, or calcium carbonate is insoluble and is the main constituent of limestone. H2CO3, or carbonic acid is what you get when you dissolve CO2 in water by the following formula:
> 
> CO2 + H2O <--> H2CO3 but when you add some KH Ca(HCO3)2 <--> CaCO3 + H2CO3
> 
> Ca(HCO3)2, actually Ca++ and HCO3- ions, is soluble and is what you measure as the carbonate hardness (KH) of your aquarium water.
> 
> Both of these reactions are at equilibrium and reversible. If you add components to one side of the reaction, you drive it in the other direction. if you add CO2 to an aquarium that has calcium carbonate decorations (e.g. dolomite or coral), you will dissolve some of the CaCO3 to make Ca(HCO3)2 and thereby increase the hardness of water. On the other hand, if you have fairly hard water and the CO2 content is decreased, CaCO3 will precipitate out (limescale) and H2CO3 is released into the water until an equilibrium is eached. In this way, Ca(HCO3)2 acts as a buffer in aquarium water. This is also why hard water resists pH changes much better than soft water, it has a much larger reserve of buffer which we call its carbonate hardness KH.


There is a calculator here:
http://www.cactus2000.de/uk/unit/masswas.shtml

cheers Darrel


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## drooke

Hi Darrel,

Cheers for the reply. I hope to be doing the water change this week - I've ordered an attachment for the hose pipe to hopefully make this much easier.

I think I have a basic grasp of buffering the water, it seems that it's just making the water harder. I'll have to source some of the chemicals that James' article suggests to be able to try and buffer the water.

Dan


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## dw1305

Hi all,


> I think I have a basic grasp of buffering the water, it seems that it's just making the water harder.


 In this case it does but you can buffer a solution to a large range of pH values. The important thing is the "reservoir" of hardness. 

Any pH buffer works because it is soluble at one pH, but insoluble at another. Have a look here: 


> A buffer solution is an aqueous solution consisting of a mixture of a weak acid and its conjugate base or a weak base and its conjugate acid. It has the property that the pH of the solution changes very little when a small amount of strong acid or base is added to it


<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffer_solution>.

cheers Darrel


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## drooke

Did a 50% water change last night including a good substrate and glass clean in under two hours. My new hose adapter for the kitchen tap works a treat  I still need to clean the filter out, might get a chance tonight.

Something that crossed my mind was what you said about pH swings causing algae. With the water change I imagine that the tank pH will increase which is another pH swing. Should I expect another load of algae straight away?

Thanks for the further info about buffering solutions. It sounds like I need to adapt the solution based on the target pH I want - is this correct? I still need to buy the chemicals so there's time to get it right yet!

Cheers,

Dan


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## Anonymous

I really don't think that ph swings are causing algae.
Usually most of the problems we face are due to the fact we don't provide *constant* and *consistent* levels of CO2 during the photoperiod thus not matching the CO2 level to the plant demands (we feed them in the morning  with accumulated co2 during the night or from the water change then let them starve the rest of the day by having too low or poorly distributed CO2 addition).

Cheers,
Mike


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## dw1305

Hi all,
I'd agree with Mike, I'm not convinced that pH variation causes many of the effects people attribute to it. 
With the buffering people usually buffer to 4dKH because this provides an excess reserve of carbonate ions to counteract the CO2 they are adding <http://www.chem.usu.edu/~sbialkow/Classes/3600/overheads/Carbonate/CO2.html>. Buffering the KH/GH up definitely won't cause any problems, and would be my suggestion. As it is a planted tank I'd use James' recipe from "James' Planted Tank" <http://www.jsctech.co.uk/theplantedtank/RO.htm>.

If you want to make your own mix you can use these values (again thanks to James):

Adding 3.0g Sodium Bicarbonate (NaHCO3) to 100 litres of water will raise the alkalinity (KH) by 1
Adding 3.6g Potassium Bicarbonate (KHCO3) to 100 litres of water will raise the alkalinity (KH) by 1

Adding 3.1g of Calcium Sulphate dihydrate (CaSO4.2H2O) to 100 litres of water will raise the GH by 1
Adding 4.4g of Magnesium Sulphate heptahydrate (MgSO4.7H2O) to 100 litres of water will raise the GH by 1

cheers Darrel


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## drooke

How can I check the current KH/GH levels now? I'm thinking I don't want to increase it too much - presumably it's possible to go too far with this.

After the water change, the fish seem much happier which is good news


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## dw1305

Hi all,
With a test kit ("API Liquid GH & KH Test Kit" sort of thing) or if you have access to a TDS meter it will give you a very rough approximation. If your tap water is soft (via your water companies web site) and you haven't added any carbonates or magnesium or calcium your water will have low KH/GH. This is due to "bio-acidification" - <http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/water/bioacid.shtml> and I think this is why Diana Walstad advised starting with a high KH/GH.

cheers Darrel


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## drooke

Been a bit busy, just had another baby!

I've ordered the API test kit you mention so will post back with the results. Things seem to be going better anyway, my angel fish pair have spawned. Have some new BBA growth on plants and wood though and a couple of fish deaths - probably due to the size of the water change I did and the subsequent change in tank pH.

Cheers


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## drooke

I've tested the water now, finally, and the results are:

GH: 5 dKH
KH: 1 dKH

So it definitely looks like I need to raise the KH. Will do a bit more research and order some supplies.


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## drooke

Actually, I suspect that the KH is below 1dKH. Looking at James' mix, that is only intended to achieve 1dKH - from what you've said Darrel I should aim for higher than this? The skepticalaquarist.com site is down for me a the moment so that may say something else.

My GH seems to be in line with what James suggests.

Any more advice on what mix I should use?

Thanks,

Dan


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## dw1305

Hi all,
It might be worth adding some "Epsom Salts" (magnesium sulphate MgSO4.7H2O), as the GH is probably mainly calcium. To raise the KH you can add potassium bi-carbonate (KHCO3) or use Oyster shell grit etc. "James Planted Tank" has details, or if you PM I can send you an Excel sheet with the calculations on it.

I'd probably add enough magnesium sulphate to raise your GH by 2dGH and enough potassium b-carbonate to get to 4dKH. 

cheers Darrel


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## greenjar

Dan

Any updates on how your tank is getting on.  Have you overcome your algae issues?


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## drooke

Hi all,

It's been an age since I updated this thread, apologies about that.

I think I've got the water fairly stable, as far as the fish health goes anyway. I've removed the redmoor root which seems to have helped. I did lose a couple of fish down to dropsy at the time of removing this, so it seems it was altering the water parameters. 

I think there is still room for improvement, specifically I haven't done anything about increasing the water hardness. Is there perhaps a solution to this where I can place something in the tank/filter which will increase the hardness - I'm sure I've seen some reference to crushed oyster shell before.

Aside from this, I am still having algae issues. Below are some photos from today, this is a week after cleaning the tank. The tank seems to be suffering from various forms of algae including BBA, green spot and dust algae. The BBA seems to affect the glass at the back of the tank which is in the flow of a 900l/hr powerhead and the amazon sword leaves - it is really stubborn, even with a scourer! Green spot and dust algae seems to be on the glass everywhere. There has also been lots of hair algae, as you can see on the filter inlet for example, and this doesn't seem to be attached to anything in particular just floating around the tank.















I have to admit I have stopped dosing the TPN+. I have a few less fish now due to the losses. These are the only changes really.

Please can anyone help me conquer these alage issues?

Thanks,

Dan


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## clonitza

Deep fine sand is not really suitable for plant growth 'cause it goes anaerobic in time and plant growth is affected but this is a side issue. Room and tank light combined is causing your plants to use the little available CO2 really fast, if there's any as you have really high flow and surface movement. I'd stop using the powerheads and turn off the tank's light, the surrounding light is more then enough for your plants. Try and limit your surface movement also. Regarding TPN+ use the recommended dosage weekly.

When your algae issues are solved and you want to use the lights again think about pressurized CO2 or liquid carbon.

Mike


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## dw1305

Hi all,
I think you need a lot more plants, PM if you want some floaters, I've still got plenty spare.If you don't feel confident with chemicals,  oyster shell grit will raise your dGH/dKH (it is the aragonite form of calcium carbonate), you would only need a little tied in a mesh bag in the filter and you can buy it as "chick grit" (for keeping chickens) from Mole Valley Farmers etc.

cheers Darrel


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## drooke

I know that the sand I have can become anaerobic. Is this a big issue for plant growth? It's the best substrate I've personally experienced, although previously I had pea gravel. Obviously changing substrate is quite a big undertaking and fairly costly, would prefer to avoid.

The room the tank is in does get a lot of natural light outside of the normal photoperiod for the tank. I know this can't be helping but I don't have an alternative location. 

In terms of flow, I have removed the large power head based on previous advice. So now I just have the Koralia Nano and the Eheim filter. That equates to 1650l/hr, according to Charterhouse Aquattics for the filter at least. Is this about right, or do I need to adjust? I read a lot about the flow should be 10x the tank capacity.

For the TPN+ dosing, can anyone recommend an automatic doser - if there is such a thing? Dosing should be nice and regular I imagine, I'm not sure I can stick to that too well to be honest so an automatic doser could help.

I know that crushed oyster shell is used in chicken grit, although I imagine there are other ingredients which may be undesirable for this use. Found some pure crushed oyster shell over on eBay - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/900g-CRUSHED- ... 1e6588d918 - does this look reasonable? What sort of quantity do you think I'd need for the tank size? 

Thanks for the offer of plants Darrel, I shall PM shortly. Aside from floating plants, are there any other types I should get? Also, how many extra plants should I be looking at?

Thanks for your replies so far,

Dan


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## drooke

Hi all,

I dosed 35ml of TPN+ last Wednesday evening, I plan to do a dose of 30ml tomorrow to adjust for substrate volume. I haven't cleaned the algae off since the photos and I can't say I've noticed any changes in algae growth since dosing.

I now have a selection of floating plants thanks to Darrel. Having these in the tank does seem to suggest I may have some flow issues, as all of the plants congregate at either end of the tank. Can anyone suggest a good article for achieving good flow?

What do you all think to using the crushed oyster shell I linked to? In terms of additional plants, do I want fast or slow growers?

Thanks,

Dan


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## drooke

After dosing last night, i have lost two corys today  i forgot to mention i lost another cory after dosing last week too. my plan this week is to dose two lots of 15ml, however it doesn't seem to have helped. 

Any idea if the deaths are linked to dosing?


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## CeeJay

Hi drooke


			
				drooke said:
			
		

> Any idea if the deaths are linked to dosing?


This is highly unlikely (especially after the amounts I've chucked in my tanks in the past   ).
I use nearly double that dose, per week, on my 95l low tech tank, and have done for more than 2 years. Fish still bombing along nicely


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## drooke

Fish all seem nice and happy at the moment. My BBA problem has subsided however I now have a problem with green dust algae.

After cleaning all the glass on saturday, removing most of the floating plants and doing a big water change there is already algae growth on the glass (mostly at the top) and a dusting on the substrate. I have now only really got a few floating plants and some big amazon swords (covered in the algae).

I'd really like to crack these algae problems as I'm getting quite fed up with it! Please can anyone offer any help?


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## dw1305

Hi all,


> I have now only really got a few floating plants and some big amazon swords (covered in the algae).


 You need to retain your plant mass, reducing it makes you are likely to get more algae. The green algae have exactly the same photosynthetic pigments as the mosses, ferns and higher plants, so if they get enough light they can make use of all the same nutrients as your plants


> I know that the sand I have can become anaerobic. Is this a big issue for plant growth? It's the best substrate I've personally experienced, although previously I had pea gravel. Obviously changing substrate is quite a big undertaking and fairly costly, would prefer to avoid.


If you have Amazon Sword it is unlikely that your substrate will be anaerobic, they have enormous root systems.


> The room the tank is in does get a lot of natural light outside of the normal photoperiod for the tank. I know this can't be helping but I don't have an alternative location.


 Some of my tanks are in bay windows (although facing NW), and it just allows them to support a big plant load.






I'm not interested in aquascaping, so I let the plants and floaters grow until they fill most of the available space.

cheers Darrel


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## geaves

As a total noob to this my understanding from reading is plant mass, that means planting 'at least' 80% of the tank with plants, initially with fast growing stem plants, then you can start redesigning slowly. The only other option I do is to add Easy Carbo daily and dose npk on a water change.

Currently the algae have nothing to compete with and as Darrel said he leaves his plants to fill the space this will prevent the formation of algae.

So more plants loads of 'em.   

Geoff


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## drooke

I removed most of the floating plants due to the fact they were almost completely covering the surface, with the exception of around the filter outlet, and it's quite a large area to cover in this tank. Around the filter outlet, plants were getting pushed under other plants a few layers deep and so were rotting away. Perhaps I shouldn't have removed so many though.

I suspect that the Amazon Swords aren't doing that well considering they're covered in the algae. They don't seem to be growing as fast as they have. And you're right about the size of their root systems, they're huge.

So perhaps it is just a case of the volume of plants as you suggest. I never had such algae problems with my previous smaller tank which probably had a higher plant density and located in the same position. 

If I were to purchase some more plants, should I be looking at buying fast growers or a range of growing speeds? I have used a few suppliers before and sourced plants from UKAPS classifieds too, but can anyone suggest some suppliers for good quality plants? I know Tropica plants are very popular on here, but I am a little unwilling to spend so much when they might just end up covered in algae and die off.

Thanks for the replies,

Dan


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## geaves

drooke said:
			
		

> I removed most of the floating plants due to the fact they were almost completely covering the surface, with the exception of around the filter outlet, and it's quite a large area to cover in this tank. Around the filter outlet, plants were getting pushed under other plants a few layers deep and so were rotting away. Perhaps I shouldn't have removed so many though.
> 
> I suspect that the Amazon Swords aren't doing that well considering they're covered in the algae. They don't seem to be growing as fast as they have. And you're right about the size of their root systems, they're huge.
> 
> So perhaps it is just a case of the volume of plants as you suggest. I never had such algae problems with my previous smaller tank which probably had a higher plant density and located in the same position.
> 
> If I were to purchase some more plants, should I be looking at buying fast growers or a range of growing speeds? I have used a few suppliers before and sourced plants from UKAPS classifieds too, but can anyone suggest some suppliers for good quality plants? I know Tropica plants are very popular on here, but I am a little unwilling to spend so much when they might just end up covered in algae and die off.
> 
> Thanks for the replies,
> 
> Dan



I purchased a 70cl mixed box from Aqua Essentials, more than enough for my 50l cube and the quality was excellent, as I have no idea about plants (as yet) then having someone else doing the selection just made it easier. They will also offer advice if you drop them an email.
The algae will die off once you've got some heavier planting and some extra water changes, the Easy Carbo won't go amiss either. As yet my cube is only 3 weeks and I've had nothing, other than surface scum and small out break of diatoms, both of which are normal on new start.


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## somethingfishy

Really interesting reading through your journal, just to state this from the start im no tank master 

I have a low tech 300ltr tank which i started nearly 3 months ago and touch wood my algae problems have been very low thus far. The main difference i can see between our tanks is i have a much higher plant mass, which im still increasing. Plus my lighting is considerably less 80w t8 for 5 hours a day.

My growth is slow but steady and im constantly trimming (haha if you read my journal you will see that nothing in my tank was planned its just evolving) Currently I have mainly anubias, crypts and enchondorus plus some vallis which are sweeping across the top helping to lower light intensity. I also added some frogbit to further shade the tank. The plants still seem to be growing   I also use tpn+ about 10ml twice a week.

I too struggle with the little to zero water changes, especially as the fish waiste builds up, but im sticking with it. I change roughly 20% every two weeks mainly through gravel cleaning, and i have not really noticed any algae blooms after a water change.

Constantly learning, in that spirit I bought d.walstads book , im not gonna lie i wish there were a few more pictures   

If i do manage to retain any knowledge from it (after probably a few reads) then i will post any tips   

Not sure how helpful my ramblings are but if you are like me its just good to know people are trying to get your back


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## drooke

Thanks for the feedback. So I've been busy sourcing a fair few plants off others members, these should arrive this week all being well and I can get them in the tank. It probably still won't get me to the levels you all have, but it's a step in the right direction. I'll post some photos when it's all planted.

geaves: I did look at Aqua Essentials but they still seem quite expensive to me. I know the quality is good off the forum so I went down that route hoping I'll get more for my money. I've spent about £40 so far.

somethingfishy: You've reminded me not to do water changes, as discussed earlier in the thread. I have been good at not doing them, but I forgot last time and did about a 30% water change. I'll probably still siphon some off to clean the substrate and to aid with filter maintenance, but I shall try and keep it down.

I have to admit I've been quite lax keeping up with the TPN+ dosing. How much of effect does this have? If the algae is growing at such a fast rate as it is, doesn't this mean there is plenty of nutrients in the water that plants can use?

Here's hoping that the additional plants will start to bring the algae under control.


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## somethingfishy

since the last time we spoke bud, i have been advised by a few peeps on here that the no water change method is maybe not the best way forward!!
I have read troi's thread in the low tech and have found it really helpful, i posted a thread on here about water changes and would reccomend reading that. It was titled 'definitive answers are they possible' i will bump it so you can find it easily. I beginning to think the real key to lowtech is the lighting to be just enough to grow plants but not encourage to much growth to the point that the lack of masses of c02 will subsequently cause algae.

Just my opinion, will bump that other post now think it will help


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## dw1305

Hi all,


> You've reminded me not to do water changes, as discussed earlier in the thread. I have been good at not doing them, but I forgot last time and did about a 30% water change. I'll probably still siphon some off to clean the substrate and to aid with filter maintenance, but I shall try and keep it down.


 I'd carry on with the water changes I think they are entirely beneficial, in fact we have had this earlier in the thread <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopi...571&hilit=walstad+water+change+darrel#p150571> & <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=17798&p=182828&hilit=water+change+darrel#p182828>.

cheers Darrel


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## dw1305

Hi all,


> "definitive answers are they possible?'


 Thanks "somethingfishy", I've just spent the last 15 minutes trying to remember/find which thread was the recent "water changes" one. <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=20782>.

cheers Darrel


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## somethingfishy

dw1305 said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> 
> 
> 
> "definitive answers are they possible?'
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks "somethingfishy", I've just spent the last 15 minutes trying to remember/find which thread was the recent "water changes" one. <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=20782>.
> 
> cheers Darrel
Click to expand...

 haha no thankyou for making it a thread worth reading


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## drooke

Hi all,

I shall keep up the water changes as you have suggested.

Had the plants in for a couple of weeks now. I haven't added as many as planned due to Royal Mail losing the biggest package. I think there is a reasonable amount though. The plants seems to be doing well, although it is a little difficult to spot new growth with the rate of GDA growth.

This GDA growth is still a major problem. All of the glass gets covered in a couple of weeks and it also affects the plants, stones and even the sand substrate! Just clearing the algae off the glass is a very temporary fix.

A bit of research shows that taking the removed algae out of the tank when cleaning will reduce it's regrowth rate, as they are spores that just reattach. People also suggest lower lighting and to maintain ferts dosing. Apparently the algae should start turning red after a couple of weeks and then die off itself. I have found only a tiny amount turns red, but it doesn't die off.

This algae is really annoying now, I want rid!

Here a photo from this morning after a glass clean yesterday:


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## sWozzAres

Is that BGA between your glass and substrate?

If so then this is due to lack of nitrogen which coincidentally is how you get GDA to go red (starve it of nitrogen and it will turn into red spores). Maybe this is the source of your problems?



			
				drooke said:
			
		

> I have to admit I've been quite lax keeping up with the TPN+ dosing. How much of effect does this have? If the algae is growing at such a fast rate as it is, doesn't this mean there is plenty of nutrients in the water that plants can use?



Dose daily when you feed the fish. You have to have nutrients available ALL the time.


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## drooke

Not sure what the algae is below the substrate to be honest. It's never really concerned me too much.

So does the GDA need to turn red prior to removing it? I have just cleaned it off again after another big build up. This time I have tried to remove as much of it from the tank as I can. As I understand it now, if the spores stay in the tank then it will all start over again by cleaning it off the glass and hence releasing the spores.

If anyone can recommend any good GDA articles with a consistent message, that would be helpful.

Thanks,

Dan


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## Iain Sutherland

hey Dan, Do you clean the tank before water change?  This is the best way as removes the spores from the tank after you loosen them.  I would also advise not letting it build up for a big clean, better to give the glass etc a scrub every other day and take a little water out.  If you do this consistently for a few weeks then the algae will diminish..
GDA it is cause by a lack of phosphates, so missing dosing your ferts will only make this worse also.  
Consistent tank maintenance is the key to beating algae, it will thrive on irregularity as plants are slower to adapt than algae.
Its a pain but worth it mate.


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## drooke

Hi Iain,

Yes I normally clean and then water change, but not today as I have some filter work to do which I'm waiting on a part for. Today I just cleaned the glass, removing the algae from the tank. 

I did also dose the TPN+ today and I've set reminders to do this twice a week - hopefully this will help me be more regular at this.

I shall also try your more regular cleaning approach.

Do people think I still need to increase my plant mass?

Thanks,

Dan


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## sr20det

Have you thought about algae eaters, otocinclus,  ancistrus for example? 

Snails? 

Not sure about shrimp pending the fish but if you could they might help.  Doesnt solve the cause but helps keeping it in check?


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