# Natural Aquarium attempt - 16/06/2015 (pics)



## Jaap (28 Jul 2014)

Hello,

Day 1!

After many efforts of finding plants in this country, I have finally gotten my hands on some and here is the aquascape that I managed.

Tank Size: 40L
Substrate: JBL Manado
Fertilization: EI
Light (still coming): TMC GroBeam 600 with controller
Plants: Eleocharis Parvula, Java Moss, Christmas Moss, Weeping Moss, Hemianthous Monte Carlo, Flame Moss, Hydrocotile Tripartia, Hemianthous Micranthemoides, Stayrogen Repens.
CO2: Pressurised and dissolved with external reactor

CO2 comes one at 12:00 and lights come on at 14:00. They both turn off at 22:00.













Thanks


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## Jaap (30 Jul 2014)

Hello,

Day 3!

This is the third day of the tank and the setup is now completed. The TMC GroBeam 600 with the controller have been added.

The light is 30cm above the tank so approximately 55cm above substrate. The intensity is set to 30%.

What do you think about the height and intensity of the light?















Thanks


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## mr. luke (31 Jul 2014)

Cant comment on the lights but for the hydrocotyle i would personally divide into small pieces as it spreads insanely fast


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## Alastair (31 Jul 2014)

Hi jaap, 
I'd say you've currently got your lighting sound starting off. You could possibly lower it a little more so more of the light is directed into the tank but if everything seems to be growing well over the next few weeks maybe slowly lower and increase lighting as plant mass increases. 

Are you planning on having fish in? Just with the co2 going off with lights and the spray bar so low below the surface it could cause an issue. Having the spray bar just ripple the surface not only gives a nice ripple effect but will help with any possible surface scum. 

Lovely little layout by the way 

Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk 2


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## roadmaster (31 Jul 2014)

The root wad on the left would look more natural I think with rocks sitting on the roots or very close to them, rather than wood on top of the rocks with void in between.
Or perhaps some type of plant to place near the root like structure of the wood to help hide the void between the wood and the stones.
Otherwise,me like.


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## Jaap (31 Jul 2014)

roadmaster said:


> The root wad on the left would look more natural I think with rocks sitting on the roots or very close to them, rather than wood on top of the rocks with void in between.
> Or perhaps some type of plant to place near the root like structure of the wood to help hide the void between the wood and the stones.
> Otherwise,me like.


Yes that is true...thsts why I used some christmas modd there and if it grows well it will hide the void.


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## Jaap (2 Aug 2014)

Day 6!

At the moment everything looks fine apart from Java Moss and Hydrocotile Tripartia. The first has turned pale from green and the second is melting at the lower leaves. The Eleocharis Parvula green and well.

Should I cut down the Eleocharis Parvula short to promote growth or wait a bit to grow roots?

Should I ignore the pale java moss and the few tripartia melting leaves or is there something I should do?









As you can see there isn't much growth but its still the 6th day...even though I see some eleocharis parvula sprouting.









Thanks


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## Jaap (5 Aug 2014)

Day 9

Java Moss is still brown and pale





Eleocharis Parvula has grown a few new leaves





Stayrogen Repens that was emersed has melted a few leaves but looks healthy overall





Flow is good and co2 is good...nutrients and light are the same as last week so now I have to wait to see how things go

Thanks


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## mr. luke (5 Aug 2014)

Id be tempted to throw in some extra ferts.
Having extra ferts will not cause you any issues and you will soon find out if it is the cause of the melt.
My hydrocotyle didnt show any signs of melt when transfered to emergent growth but was always the first plant to show any problems. Once it takes off youll struggle to get rod of it if you want to 

Edit
Its also extremely hard to kill java moss.
You can completely dry it out then plant it and it will still grow so i wouldnt be too concerned at this stage.


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## Jaap (5 Aug 2014)

That is good to know Mr. Like about the Java Moss because I will be sad if it died off since it took me a while to tie it up on the wood 

The ferts in the tank are plenty though....I always overdose ferts just to be sure so I already took your advice lets say 

Now the melt is a bit weird....maybe I don't have enough CO2 but if there are new leaves growing then isn't that a good indication?



mr. luke said:


> Id be tempted to throw in some extra ferts.
> Having extra ferts will not cause you any issues and you will soon find out if it is the cause of the melt.
> My hydrocotyle didnt show any signs of melt when transfered to emergent growth but was always the first plant to show any problems. Once it takes off youll struggle to get rod of it if you want to
> 
> ...


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## mr. luke (5 Aug 2014)

Try overdosing a bit more.
I can guarantee it will not cause you any problems at this stage somit is worth a try. Are you dosing macro and micro?
If this is the problem your new leaves will not melt and you have found the root of your problem so surely worth it? 
Also remove all the dead or dying leaves. 

New leaved will grow regardless unless the whole plant dies wchich is unlikely to occurr.

If overdosing a bit more does not solve the problem it will be related to flow or CO2 avaliability in comparisson to your lighting levels.


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## Iain Sutherland (5 Aug 2014)

Don't worry about about ferts (you've said your heavy already) melt is nearly always co2/distribution (crypts can be an exception).
Reduce the light if you can and focus all attention to getting higher levels of co2 and better circulation especially during the first hour of lights on.


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## Jaap (5 Aug 2014)

I believe circulation is not an issue since the 40l tank has a 1000l/h filter with a spray bar along the back of thw tank plus all the plants have a light movement from the water.

CO2 might be a problem but i dont think so since the pressurised co2 bottle is hooked to an external reactor and it is almost full blast since the bubbles per second are impossible to count and its one 3 hours before lights on.

Finally light is a TMC grobeam 600 and is set at 30% intensity at a distance of 55cm from the substrate.  Is that good or should I decrease light intensity?

Any other suggestions I might need to check?


Iain Sutherland said:


> Don't worry about about ferts (you've said your heavy already) melt is nearly always co2/distribution (crypts can be an exception).
> Reduce the light if you can and focus all attention to getting higher levels of co2 and better circulation especially during the first hour of lights on.


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## Martin in Holland (6 Aug 2014)

The only way to know if there is no issue with CO2 is to test the pH drop versus light on/off over a days period. Check your KH before doing this.


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## Jaap (6 Aug 2014)

Day 10!

I was away for a day and came back to see that the lights were on but the CO2 timer was on off and the CO2 didn't switch on. Found the Stayrogen Repens to have melted even more but only the ones that were grown emersed, the ones that were taken from another tank are fine.

I did a 50% water change, fixed the CO2 timer, added two doses of macros and two doses of micros just to make sure all ferts are there and now I am ready to go again. Did a small flow test as well.

Flow test....as much as flow goes this is what I have to show...is it enough?













Thanks


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## ceg4048 (7 Aug 2014)

As other have mentioned you need to improve your CO2 dissolution and stop worrying about nutrients. Nutrient deficiency doesn't cause melt, CO2 deficiency does. There is no need to guess or to add double doses. The spraybar arrangement looks OK to me. That must mean therefore that you have too much light and not enough injection rate.

Reduce the intensity to half of what it is now and increase the bubble rate. Do the pH profile as mentioned and that will tell you more. You can also add liquid carbon daily to improve the CO2.

Cheers,


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## Jaap (7 Aug 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> As other have mentioned you need to improve your CO2 dissolution and stop worrying about nutrients. Nutrient deficiency doesn't cause melt, CO2 deficiency does. There is no need to guess or to add double doses. The spraybar arrangement looks OK to me. That must mean therefore that you have too much light and not enough injection rate.
> 
> Reduce the intensity to half of what it is now and increase the bubble rate. Do the pH profile as mentioned and that will tell you more. You can also add liquid carbon daily to improve the CO2.
> 
> Cheers,


Normal Excel dose or double triple the recommended dose?


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## ceg4048 (7 Aug 2014)

If there are no fish in the tank (which there shouldn't be) then triple  daily by the way.

Cheers,


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## Jaap (7 Aug 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> If there are no fish in the tank (which there shouldn't be) then triple  daily by the way.
> 
> Cheers,


Ok could do that since there aren't any fish...

Shouldn't the co2 injection by itself be sufficient? I mean a good injection rate and an external reactor should do the job right?

Also about light...its a TMC grobeam 600 at 30% intensity and 55cm above substrate...does that sound good or should I increase/decrease intensity?


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## ceg4048 (7 Aug 2014)

Jaap said:


> Shouldn't the co2 injection by itself be sufficient? I mean a good injection rate and an external reactor should do the job right?


Yes it should be, but the plants are telling you that it isn't. Maybe your injection is weak at this point. I don't really know exactly because I'm hundreds of miles away from where the tank is. What I do know is that plants and algae never lie, so the only thing to do is to give them more of what they are asking for until you solve the riddle of why what you were supplying isn't sufficient.




Jaap said:


> Also about light...its a TMC grobeam 600 at 30% intensity and 55cm above substrate...does that sound good or should I increase/decrease intensity?


Again, when plants are melting they are telling you to decrease the intensity.

Cheers,


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## Jaap (7 Aug 2014)

I increased CO2 injection rate and also added 15ml of Seachem Excel in a 40L tank.

Is there a chance that the Excel overdose will effect negatively any of the following plants (like it affects Valis):
Eleocharis Parvula
Java Moss
Christmas Moss
Weeping Moss (Fissidens Fontanus) 
Hemianthous Monte Carlo
Flame Moss
Hydrocotile Tripartia
Hemianthous Micranthemoides
Stayrogen Repens

Thanks




ceg4048 said:


> Yes it should be, but the plants are telling you that it isn't. Maybe your injection is weak at this point. I don't really know exactly because I'm hundreds of miles away from where the tank is. What I do know is that plants and algae never lie, so the only thing to do is to give them more of what they are asking for until you solve the riddle of why what you were supplying isn't sufficient.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ceg4048 (7 Aug 2014)

The tolerance of moss is pretty high (relatively speaking). The grass and the others ought to be OK. Not sure about the hydrocotile though. You can start with bottle suggested doses and increase from there if you're unsure.

You are not limited to any injection rate if there are no fauna in the tank so increase it as high as you want.

Cheers,


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## Jaap (7 Aug 2014)

Day 11!

The Stayrogen Repens have continued to melt and some melted completely. 






Hydrocodile Tripartia and Hemianthous are not in good shame but remain the same.







Eleocharis and montecarlo remain the same and I can see some growth.





Xmas moss has some tips growing. 





Java moss still brown.





Wheeping moss is stable but gets dirty and I dont know why.





A few snails are sprouting. ..should I keep them or get rid of them?





After the melting I have decided to up the co2 rate and add 15ml of seachem excel...I really hope it helps!





Thanks


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## Jaap (9 Aug 2014)

Ph profile:

11:00    pH 7.5
12:00    pH 6.5

My kH is 9


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## Martin in Holland (9 Aug 2014)

It would be more helpful if we would know a bit more....such as when lights come on and off, when CO2 comes on and off and a full day pH profile (lets say from 9am until 9pm) measuring the pH every hour.


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## Jaap (10 Aug 2014)

Martin in China said:


> It would be more helpful if we would know a bit more....such as when lights come on and off, when CO2 comes on and off and a full day pH profile (lets say from 9am until 9pm) measuring the pH every hour.


I will try to get some readings within the week


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## Jaap (10 Aug 2014)

Day 14!

Not much to report at the moment. The stayrogen repens completely melted and will be replaced with the same species again...not all melted, just the ones that were emmersed before.

Now that I dose daily 5ml seachem excel and uped the co2 rate I hope that the next repens will not melt.

Java moss still brown and everything else is stagnant. 





Thanks


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## Ben C (10 Aug 2014)

A really good tip I read about Staurogyne is to cut it so you only have four leaves or so left at the top. The whole plant should then be about 2cm tall. Remove the bottom two of those four leaves giving you a good stem to plant into the substrate. The plant will then grow strong and healthily. Its a bit of leap of faith, as it looks brutally cruel, but having lost my first lot, I tried this on a second lot and have never looked back. It generally doesn't take well with plants the size you have them. They'll soon take off.


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## Jaap (12 Aug 2014)

Day 16!

No progress but also not much negative effects.





I have added a small fan to the tank and it has dropped the temperature from 32 to 28 degrees Celsius.  I dont know if that will help or not.







I can see that some of the leaves of the montecarlo look like something chew on them but I have no fauna so maybe a snail or is this some kind of deficiency?





I can see some growth in stayrogen repens but nothing else is growing...should I be alarmed?

Thanks


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## ceg4048 (12 Aug 2014)

Jaap said:


> I have added a small fan to the tank and it has dropped the temperature from 32 to 28 degrees Celsius. I dont know if that will help or not.


Yes it helps. There is an approximate 10% increase in CO2 solubility when the temperature decreases from 32 to 28 deg.C

You can also try to cover the tank with glass or acrylic sheet to retain some gas and slow it's egress from the water.

Cheers,


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## Jaap (12 Aug 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> Yes it helps. There is an approximate 10% increase in CO2 solubility when the temperature decreases from 32 to 28 deg.C
> 
> You can also try to cover the tank with glass or acrylic sheet to retain some gas and slow it's egress from the water.
> 
> Cheers,


What about the fact that I dont see growth? Day 16 and only repens grow?


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## ceg4048 (12 Aug 2014)

Well, I mean, get over that fact as quickly as you can. What about the fact that they are not melting into oblivion? That shows progress in my book.

Cheers,


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## Jaap (12 Aug 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> Well, I mean, get over that fact as quickly as you can. What about the fact that they are not melting into oblivion? That shows progress in my book.
> 
> Cheers,


Day 16 and the light intensity is 30%...when and by how much should I increase?


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## ceg4048 (12 Aug 2014)

That chapter hasn't been written in the book yet. Light intensity was how you got into trouble right? So now you want more trouble? 

That tank has a long way to go. It's still on life support.

Cheers,


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## Jaap (12 Aug 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> That chapter hasn't been written in the book yet. Light intensity was how you got into trouble right? So now you want more trouble?
> 
> That tank has a long way to go. It's still on life support.
> 
> Cheers,


So do nothing at the moment right?


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## ceg4048 (12 Aug 2014)

You can inject even more CO2...

Cheers,


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## Jaap (14 Aug 2014)

Day 18!

The water looked cloudy and there was a thin oily film covering the water surface so I decided to do a huge 70% water change.

Not much has changed but I increased the co2 a bit more just because I can 





Thanks


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## Jaap (15 Aug 2014)

Should I pick out the sails in the tank? Are they bad for plants?


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## EdwinK (15 Aug 2014)

They are not bad for healthy plants.


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## Jaap (15 Aug 2014)

They will not eat healthy plants or do healthy plants recover rather than unhealthy ones?


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## EdwinK (15 Aug 2014)

They will not eat healthy plants.


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## Jaap (16 Aug 2014)

Day 19!

As of yesterday the co2 has been increased and is now available in abundance to the plants. I would like to believe that this is the reason all these bubbles are on the leaves of the plants. Am I right?












Thanks


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## Martin in Holland (16 Aug 2014)

It could also be that you just did a large water change...
Plants also for bubbles when you have lots of light and on places where the plant has damaged (often you can see bubbles coming from the place where a has been cut)
BUT, yes, it could also mean that they are getting more CO2...still though, they need light to produce (big enough for us to see) O2 bubbles, this might suggest that your light is a bit to much still.


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## ceg4048 (16 Aug 2014)

Jaap said:


> As of yesterday the co2 has been increased and is now available in abundance to the plants. I would like to believe that this is the reason all these bubbles are on the leaves of the plants. Am I right?


It means you are on the correct path.

Perform another pH profile check.

Cheers,


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## Jaap (16 Aug 2014)

Martin in China said:


> It could also be that you just did a large water change...
> Plants also for bubbles when you have lots of light and on places where the plant has damaged (often you can see bubbles coming from the place where a has been cut)
> BUT, yes, it could also mean that they are getting more CO2...still though, they need light to produce (big enough for us to see) O2 bubbles, this might suggest that your light is a bit to much still.


Hello Marting

The large water change was made 24h before, does that still count?

Also the light is at 55cm above substrate and at 30% intensity. Its a grobeam 600...some people said to increase intensity because its too low and its now been 3 weeks since the begining without algae so doesn't that say that light is not high?


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## Martin in Holland (16 Aug 2014)

Jaap said:


> Hello Marting
> 
> The large water change was made 24h before, does that still count?
> 
> Also the light is at 55cm above substrate and at 30% intensity. Its a grobeam 600...some people said to increase intensity because its too low and its now been 3 weeks since the begining without algae so doesn't that say that light is not high?


 Sound good, like Clive mentioned, it looks like you are on the right track. Give it some time and see what will happen.


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## Jaap (16 Aug 2014)

Day 20!

Two days ago I did a 70% water change because the water seemed cloudy and there was a thin oily film on the water surface. The surface scum occured on/after the day that I increased the CO2 but I am not sure if it is a coincidence or not.

Two days later and the surface scum is back again. Its a thin oily film...what might this be and how do I remove/prevent it?







Thanks!


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## Iain Sutherland (16 Aug 2014)

Hey jaap, oily film appears normally when plant health isn't great, as you fix your issues it should dissipate.

Clive will shoot me but I love Eheim skims, mainly because if you have livestock and a surface scum appears it stops the off gassing of co2 and can cause gassing of livestock.


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## Jaap (16 Aug 2014)

Iain Sutherland said:


> Hey jaap, oily film appears normally when plant health isn't great, as you fix your issues it should dissipate.
> 
> Clive will shoot me but I love Eheim skims, mainly because if you have livestock and a surface scum appears it stops the off gassing of co2 and can cause gassing of livestock.


How does it form?


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## Jaap (18 Aug 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> It means you are on the correct path.
> 
> Perform another pH profile check.
> 
> Cheers,



Hello Clive,

I think the increase in CO2 might have lead to surface biofilm and since I read through your posts on this subject my understanding is that the CO2 increase I made has put the plants under stress and the biofilm is "the lipid tails and fatty acid products destroyed and spewed out". Also it does concern me that there might be an algal bloom coming "It wouldn't be surprising at all that algal blooms in the tank are either accompanied by, or preceded by surface scum, because these are both health and nutrition related. In fact, typically one gets the film and then the algae. The film is a harbinger of doom because it's telling you that you have health issues."

So my question here is. I didn't change light, flow, nutrients and I increased CO2 to help plants, to stop them from melting. What do I do now if the biofilm means the plants are under stress?

I think your answer might be to lower the lights. However the lights are already low...a TMC Grobeam 55cm from the substrate and at 30% intensity is considered low from the advice I got from this forum. Also I do understand that no matter what people say in the forum its the plants that I have to listen to. However I am a bit confused as of the changes that I make. I had high CO2 demands because the light was driving them up and now that I put more CO2 I need to lower the lights?

Very confused on what my next step should be  If I lower the light intensity any more then I wont be able to see the plants in the tank...


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## ceg4048 (18 Aug 2014)

Add more CO2 mate. Do a lot of water changes.

Cheers,


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## Jaap (18 Aug 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> Add more CO2 mate. Do a lot of water changes.
> 
> Cheers,


Will the plants adapt to the drastic co2 increase and stop excreting the oily substance at some point?

its a bit difficult to add more co2...it will be free flowing in a bit...


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## Brian Murphy (18 Aug 2014)

Maybe point your spraybar a little more towards the surface to create a ripple effect and then the scum wont appear


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## ceg4048 (18 Aug 2014)

Jaap said:


> Will the plants adapt to the drastic co2 increase and stop excreting the oily substance at some point?
> its a bit difficult to add more co2...it will be free flowing in a bit...


I think you need a bit more patience. Your tank has only been running a few weeks now and you've had problems from the start. We don't really know whether this condition is due to something that happened 2 days ago or two weeks ago.

Didn't you just recently report that the plants had stopped melting and that they had stabilized? Has there been more melting and dying? If not then you'll have to give the plants a chance to recover. It takes several weeks to adapt to new conditions. If the plants went from dying to oily expulsions then that's an improvement.

You can always add more CO2 if plants are in poor shape. After they recover you can start to think about reducing the injection rate.

This is exactly why I mentioned that you should not be thinking about increasing the light, because the plants are not out of the woods. They only just stopped dying, right?

Stop hitting the panic button and just continue on the path. Do massive water changes such that a majority of the plants are exposed to air for 30 minutes or so, then fill. Keep the water temperature cool, in the low 20's which helps the water to retain more CO2.

Cheers,


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## Jaap (18 Aug 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> I think you need a bit more patience. Your tank has only been running a few weeks now and you've had problems from the start. We don't really know whether this condition is due to something that happened 2 days ago or two weeks ago.
> 
> Didn't you just recently report that the plants had stopped melting and that they had stabilized? Has there been more melting and dying? If not then you'll have to give the plants a chance to recover. It takes several weeks to adapt to new conditions. If the plants went from dying to oily expulsions then that's an improvement.
> 
> ...


Keeping the temp to low 20s is difficult unfortunately since its summertime here so the best I can do is 28 and as time goes by it will drop.

I will continue with the water changes and I will see how it goes.

Thanks


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## Jaap (18 Aug 2014)

Look at them pearl 







And this happened with co2 increase. ..didn't increase nutrients or light!


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## Jaap (19 Aug 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> I think you need a bit more patience. Your tank has only been running a few weeks now and you've had problems from the start. We don't really know whether this condition is due to something that happened 2 days ago or two weeks ago.
> 
> Didn't you just recently report that the plants had stopped melting and that they had stabilized? Has there been more melting and dying? If not then you'll have to give the plants a chance to recover. It takes several weeks to adapt to new conditions. If the plants went from dying to oily expulsions then that's an improvement.
> 
> ...


Can I decrease the co2 injection once the plants have grown healthy? It seems that I am injection too much co2 because it builts up and fills half of the reactor...the filter then pumps water in the reactor and the water drops like a waterfall...the filter outflow ia adjustable and its nearly full on...


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## ceg4048 (19 Aug 2014)

Can you just pump the gas directly into the filter inlet instead of using the reactor for now?

Once the plants are healthy then they can use less than you are injecting, but right now they are low on stored energy.

Cheers,


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## Jaap (19 Aug 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> Can you just pump the gas directly into the filter inlet instead of using the reactor for now?
> 
> Once the plants are healthy then they can use less than you are injecting, but right now they are low on stored energy.
> 
> Cheers,


At the moment even though the reactor is half full of co2,  the co2 levels going into the tank seem to be very good so I am willing to waste some co2 for the plants sake...I just want to decrease co2 later on whenever plants look healthy so I can accommodate fish and so the 3 kg co2 bottle doesn't run out in 1 month...so at some point I will be able to lower co2 with the plants being OK with it right?


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## Omegatron (19 Aug 2014)

I have the same issue when giving loads of co2 that it fills up the reactor halfway. We are basicly giving more co2 then our filter/reactor combo can dissolve. This Co2 wont be wasted since its in an closed container it will only take a bit longer for the reactor to dissolve it all. Unless you see the outlet spitting out big bubbles ofc. then you should lower it a bit or as clive suggested pump the co2 directly in the inlet.

When your plants are back in good health you can lower the co2, Im sure i have to or i kill my fish and shrimp within a few hours.

Also make sure that the filter you are running the reactor on has a good flow, regular maintenance helps a lot keeping the flow optimal.


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## Jaap (23 Aug 2014)

Day 26!

No changes regarding setup of tank...still dosing massive amounts of co2...my 3kg co2 tank run out in 25 days so I had to fill it up yesterday...plants were without co2 for 2 hours.






I guess plants look a bit greener...

My Eleocharis parvula leafs some of them are wavy....dont know why...any ideas? Its difficult to see it but a few leaves took a zigzag shape...









Thanks


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## ceg4048 (23 Aug 2014)

Jaap said:


> I guess plants look a bit greener...


Yeah, I guess they look like they're not dying anymore either.

That spraybar looks a little low. How far is it from the surface and can it be raised?

Cheers,


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## Jaap (24 Aug 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> Yeah, I guess they look like they're not dying anymore either.
> 
> That spraybar looks a little low. How far is it from the surface and can it be raised?
> 
> Cheers,


Its around 5cm from surface...it can be raised yes...whats the benefits of raising it?


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## mr. luke (24 Aug 2014)

With the spraybar higher up you will get a better circular flow.
When it is lower down more of the water will be pushed upwards when it hits the glass.


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## Jaap (29 Aug 2014)

Day 32!

It had been a month and it is the first time in my 17 years of tank keeping that I have no algae!

Some of the plants look healthy but others dont.

Stayrogen Repens are bouncing back




Eleocharis Parvula could have been a bit greener and growth is very minimal




Mintecarlo are spreading at a slow steady rate




Christmas Moss is not growing at all and remains pretty much good looking




Java Moss remains the same....pale and dead




Wheeping Moss doesnt grow and gets dirty...it looks a bit darker as well




Hemianthous Microtrichoides grows new leaves but old leaves disintegrate




Hydrocotile Tripartia grows a few new leaves and seems to be bouncing back




Overall health of tank is mediocre but it is steady






CO2 is full on to the point where the reactor cannot completely dissolve it. Lights remain at 55cm above substrate and at 30% intensity. Distribution is the same and looks good. Nutrients are dosed as before according to EI plus alittle bit extra just to be sure. No plants are melting at the moment.

Any comments or suggestions are more than welcome.


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## mr. luke (30 Aug 2014)

Your weeping moss looks like fissidens to me.
Id advise not increasing the light until you have a lot more plant mass.


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## Omegatron (30 Aug 2014)

mr. luke said:


> Your weeping moss looks like fissidens to me.
> Id advise not increasing the light until you have a lot more plant mass.



+ 1 on weeping moss. Its fissidens


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Iain Sutherland (30 Aug 2014)

going in the right direction  Jaap.  now you need to be patient, easy to start getting excited and go backwards.  Id suggest that if you can add some more plant mass, they should take quite well now the major issues are sorted.  If you would like some monte carlo i will be trimming my nano in the coming days... FOC pm me.  A few pots of rotala rotundifolia work work quite well, undemanding and fast growing.


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## Jaap (30 Aug 2014)

Iain Sutherland said:


> going in the right direction  Jaap.  now you need to be patient, easy to start getting excited and go backwards.  Id suggest that if you can add some more plant mass, they should take quite well now the major issues are sorted.  If you would like some monte carlo i will be trimming my nano in the coming days... FOC pm me.  A few pots of rotala rotundifolia work work quite well, undemanding and fast growing.


I will add more plants as you suggested...how does that help?


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## viktorlantos (31 Aug 2014)

Quick comments from me as i got a PM. better to share it here than do there as then noone learn from it  Hope you do not mind.

Manado soil..... meanwhile we've seen tons of great tank with this soil this act differently than many clay soil (in general the japanese ones).
Hardening the water. Really muddy and poweder structure so i guess roots can have problems with this.

I do not see you used substrate fertilizers. This is something which is really undervalued and we frequently read EI solve everything. 
Many plants took off easier the nutrients from soil than from water column. This is clearly visible when you run multiple tanks.
Manado is without any fertilizers. So this is a problem, and because of this you should not save on substrate fertilizers. Also you need to keep up with regular fertilizers and renew the substrate with bottom sticks after 4-6 months or so when the nutrients run out from the soil.

Many carpeting plant runs much better with a good substrate. Parvula is absolutelly one of them. But you have Monte Carlo too which can be better.

Some of your plants are light demanding like: 
parvula, monte carlo, trypartita, hemianthus micranthemoides. these needs more light.

so on one hand you do not have algae which is good. on the other, the tank after 30 days looks like on day 1 which is not good. 
i would increase the light and fight for the balance. or would rethink the plant selection and use shade lovers.


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## Jaap (1 Sep 2014)

Day 35!

I am very disappointed.  Nothing seems to work out but i am determined! 

I increased co2 injection and raised the spray bar as suggested. Will increase excel dose to 10ml daily instead of 5ml.

Lets hope this will improve the situation a bit....I need a small win right about now!









Thanks


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## Alexander Belchenko (1 Sep 2014)

Main photo looks very dark for me, I'm not sure whether it's really dark (for your plants) or this is just photo. I think you could increase the light level, but add some floating plants and ceratophyllum to help keep the balance and avoid algae invasion.

Also, may I suggest you to add night aeration? It helps to reduce oil film in my tank and plants looks brighter.

Sent via Tapatalk


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## Jaap (2 Sep 2014)

Alexander Belchenko said:


> Main photo looks very dark for me, I'm not sure whether it's really dark (for your plants) or this is just photo. I think you could increase the light level, but add some floating plants and ceratophyllum to help keep the balance and avoid algae invasion.
> 
> Also, may I suggest you to add night aeration? It helps to reduce oil film in my tank and plants looks brighter.
> 
> Sent via Tapatalk


How does aeration make plants look brighter?


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## Alexander Belchenko (2 Sep 2014)

Well, I guess without the film on surface everything in the tank becomes healthier, and more light comes into water. Night aeration is highly recomended by ADA as well.

Sent via Tapatalk


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## parotet (2 Sep 2014)

Jaap said:


> How does aeration make plants look brighter?


Everything in your tank consumes oxygen (well I think I am not wrong if I say that we have in our tanks highly demanding oxygen organisms, including these bacteria in which you rely to keep your water column clean and safe)... Aireation/surface agitation means injecting o2 in the water column and tank husbandry helps reducing biological oxygen demand. Have a look to surface aireation threads (balance between co2 and o2, spraybars), there is great info there. Don't forget also to read Darrel's post about aireation... Brilliant stuff (http://plecoplanet.com/?page_id=829.

Jordi


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## Jaap (2 Sep 2014)

Ok I will try to do this....If I turn it on all night does it have to be full power aeration or just a few bubbles from the air-stone are enough? Just to avoid turbulence...



parotet said:


> Everything in your tank consumes oxygen (well I think I am not wrong if I say that we have in our tanks highly demanding oxygen organisms, including these bacteria in which you rely to keep your water column clean and safe)... Aireation/surface agitation means injecting o2 in the water column and tank husbandry helps reducing biological oxygen demand. Have a look to surface aireation threads (balance between co2 and o2, spraybars), there is great info there. Don't forget also to read Darrel's post about aireation... Brilliant stuff (http://plecoplanet.com/?page_id=829.
> 
> Jordi





Alexander Belchenko said:


> Main photo looks very dark for me, I'm not sure whether it's really dark (for your plants) or this is just photo. I think you could increase the light level, but add some floating plants and ceratophyllum to help keep the balance and avoid algae invasion.
> 
> Also, may I suggest you to add night aeration? It helps to reduce oil film in my tank and plants looks brighter.
> 
> Sent via Tapatalk


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## parotet (2 Sep 2014)

Jaap said:


> Ok I will try to do this....If I turn it on all night does it have to be full power aeration or just a few bubbles from the air-stone are enough? Just to avoid turbulence...


Forget about air stones... can you see the oxygen bubles reaching the surface? Well, that is exactly what you do not want. Air stones do not dissolve oxygen in the water in a very efficient way. Place your spraybar a few cm below the water surface and you will see gentle ripples. This is a much more efficient way to dissolve oxygen (you increase the exchange gas surface) and a good way to break the film (metabolic by-products/waste). By night you can try to have more rippling if you want, but when the CO2 is on you want only a gentle rippling to avoid excessive co2 loss (if you want to make your life easier, let the spraybar in a position where you can see always a gentle ripling, it should be enough)

Look at Amano's and Barr's tanks (as an example of successful and well-known aquascapers..., but have also a look to some journals here), they make sure that they have high levels of oxygen (along with high CO2 levels). Amano always outlines that lily pipes have to be raised by night, Barr uses overflows and sumps which ensure high oxygen contents on water. Spaybar users do what explained above to also meet this objective... Use the search engine (keywords: sparybar, gas exchange, ph readings, etc.) and look for threads in which all this is much better explained. Really good information.

Jordi


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## Jaap (2 Sep 2014)

You mentioned Tom Bar using sumps and overflows.....doesn't that lower CO2 significantly? 



parotet said:


> Forget about air stones... can you see the oxygen bubles reaching the surface? Well, that is exactly what you do not want. Air stones do not dissolve oxygen in the water in a very efficient way. Place your spraybar a few cm below the water surface and you will see gentle ripples. This is a much more efficient way to dissolve oxygen (you increase the exchange gas surface) and a good way to break the film (metabolic by-products/waste). By night you can try to have more rippling if you want, but when the CO2 is on you want only a gentle rippling to avoid excessive co2 loss (if you want to make your life easier, let the spraybar in a position where you can see always a gentle ripling, it should be enough)
> 
> Look at Amano's and Barr's tanks (as an example of successful and well-known aquascapers..., but have also a look to some journals here), they make sure that they have high levels of oxygen (along with high CO2 levels). Amano always outlines that lily pipes have to be raised by night, Barr uses overflows and sumps which ensure high oxygen contents on water. Spaybar users do what explained above to also meet this objective... Use the search engine (keywords: sparybar, gas exchange, ph readings, etc.) and look for threads in which all this is much better explained. Really good information.
> 
> Jordi


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## Alexander Belchenko (2 Sep 2014)

Well, I use air stone because I'm lazy to change position of the outflow every night and morning. Also those bursting bubbles on the surface definitely break the oil film in my observations.


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## parotet (2 Sep 2014)

Jaap said:


> You mentioned Tom Bar using sumps and overflows.....doesn't that lower CO2 significantly?


In the recommended threads to be read it is explained that co2 dissolution is independent of o2 dissolution. You need high concentrations of both gases. 

Jordi


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## parotet (2 Sep 2014)

viktorlantos said:


> Manado soil..... meanwhile we've seen tons of great tank with this soil this act differently than many clay soil (in general the japanese ones).
> Hardening the water. Really muddy and poweder structure so i guess roots can have problems with this.
> I do not see you used substrate fertilizers. This is something which is really undervalued and we frequently read EI solve everything.
> Many plants took off easier the nutrients from soil than from water column. This is clearly visible when you run multiple tanks.
> Manado is without any fertilizers. So this is a problem, and because of this you should not save on substrate fertilizers. Also you need to keep up with regular fertilizers and renew the substrate with bottom sticks after 4-6 months or so when the nutrients run out from the soil.


I run two tanks, one with Manado and the other one with Aquasoil. The one with Manado is a low tech, thus theoretically a less demanding tank regarding nutrients uptake and consistency. The one with Aquasoil is a carbon enriched tank, therefore more demanding. I agree with Viktor that Manado is nothing but clay and even if I have it in a less demanding setup I really notice it when I am not consistent in my fert dosing... this drove me crazy as I could read everywhere that low tech tanks could be managed "just adding ferts from time to time" but this is only partially true, just if you can rely on a substrate that is able to store nutrients... so good advice IMO, make sure you have enough nutrients because this soil won't be storing anything

Jordi


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## Jaap (2 Sep 2014)

I thought clay had a high CEC and stored some nutrients at least...



parotet said:


> I run two tanks, one with Manado and the other one with Aquasoil. The one with Manado is a low tech, thus theoretically a less demanding tank regarding nutrients uptake and consistency. The one with Aquasoil is a carbon enriched tank, therefore more demanding. I agree with Viktor that Manado is nothing but clay and even if I have it in a less demanding setup I really notice it when I am not consistent in my fert dosing... this drove me crazy as I could read everywhere that low tech tanks could be managed "just adding ferts from time to time" but this is only partially true, just if you can rely on a substrate that is able to store nutrients... so good advice IMO, make sure you have enough nutrients because this soil won't be storing anything
> 
> Jordi


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## parotet (2 Sep 2014)

I don't have an answer to this , probably othe posters will have the answer. Just my experience, but it looks that there is a huge difference between enriched Akadama substrates based on clay and just clay (Manado). See for example this thread: http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/jbl-manado-all-in-one-substrate.6316/

Jordi


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## Jaap (9 Sep 2014)

Day 43!

I have increased the light intensity from 30% to 40% for 5 days and now I have set it to 50%. At the moment there is no melting and I think I see new leaves on the tripartia and the staurogyne repens...only time will show but I am alert for any negative signs!


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## Jaap (13 Sep 2014)

Day 47!

A few new leaves sprouting on the tripartia but the rest of the plants remain the same. This is not bad as everything now looks in good health but not growing. Today I have increased the light intensity to 60% and I will wait to see if I get better plant health or plant growth.

Thanks


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## Jaap (14 Sep 2014)

Day 48!

The lights are now on at 60% intensity.  My phoenix moss is dark green which as i read is an indication of high chlorophyll to utilise the low light levels so at higher light levels the moss is greener. Lets see how it will grow.





I have added a few more stayrogyne repens on the left from my emersed collection. More biomass. Did my usual 50% wc and took a picture. 





My ph profile is
11:00 - 8.42         
12:00 - 7.19          
13:00 - 6.99
14:00 - 6.95 Lights On

And from here onwards its at 6.95 until lights off.

Thanks


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## pepedopolous (14 Sep 2014)

Looks like some slow but steady improvement. Sorry if I've missed it but what is your KH?

P


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## Jaap (14 Sep 2014)

pepedopolous said:


> Looks like some slow but steady improvement. Sorry if I've missed it but what is your KH?
> 
> P


The kh is 9

Yes the improvement is agonisingly slow. It looks like i had very very low light. Now its being increased gradually until good healthy plant growth is achieved.


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## pepedopolous (14 Sep 2014)

Yeah, I've had similar problems to you but I run my TMC MiniLED400 at 100%. No choice as the controller broke. I do have floating plants to block some of the light though.

P


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## Jaap (15 Sep 2014)

At what distance from the substrate do you have it?
Also is your tank high maintenance?



pepedopolous said:


> Yeah, I've had similar problems to you but I run my TMC MiniLED400 at 100%. No choice as the controller broke. I do have floating plants to block some of the light though.
> 
> P


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## pepedopolous (15 Sep 2014)

> At what distance from the substrate do you have it?
> Also is your tank high maintenance?



Well the tank is 43cm tall and the 'Mountaray' bracket is another 20cm. However, the substrate is sloped from front to back as much as 15cm. Let's say at least 30cm from light to substrate.

High maintenance? Yes I inject CO2 like a junkie!

P


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## Jaap (17 Sep 2014)

When will it be wise to put fish or shrimp in the tank? I would like to see a few shrimp in there to help with cleaning the surface of the leaves from debris.


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## Alexander Belchenko (17 Sep 2014)

I'd put some shrimps as soon as temperature in the tank goes below 28 C degrees, assuming you already runing it for 1.5 months.

Sent via Tapatalk


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## Jaap (17 Sep 2014)

How will i know that i am not pumping too much co2?


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## Alexander Belchenko (17 Sep 2014)

It's easy. They won't die. Start with hardy shrimps like cherry shrimps, try to reduce CO2 initially and then slowly increase the level (I mean during next few days). If the shrimps won't try to escape the tank and not die suddenly - you're OK. That sounds horrible, I know, but you never can be sure you won't kill your livestock without some experience. And anyway, I managed to kill part of my livestock (twice or 3 times) when I suddenly increased CO2 injection without careful control. So, I'd suggest to do experiments at the weekends when you can watch the livestock and their behavior. Do you switch off the injection at night? If not, I'd suggest you use air pump at night, at least until livestock get adapted to CO2.


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## Jaap (19 Sep 2014)

Day 53!

Yesterday I got a Limnophila Sessiliflora and added it on the back left hand corner of the tank. I will provide pictures today.

I have also noticed that the past days as the weather is daily becoming cooler, the pH of my tank at 7:00 am is daily becoming lower. For example on monday I had a pH of 8.45 the next day 8:42 the next 8:40 and today it was 8:35. Have in mind that at 7:00 am the CO2 is off, it switches off the previous night at 21:00 so its off for 10 hours. I believe that Clive and Tom Barr told me this before that the higher the temperature the less gasses are contained in the water so taking that in mind, a drop in the temperature cause less CO2 to escape the tank thus the lower pH. Does that sound logical?

On a different note, since I have seen improvement when the light intensity is increasing gradually and after 6 days of increasing the light from 50% to 60% with good results, I have increased the light intensity to 70%. Lets see how the plants adjust to this intensity and if after 6 days I see positive results and no algae or melting then I might increase it another 10%. I know at some point it will cause a counter-effect and trouble will come my way OR if I reach 100% intensity and plants are healthy then I will not try to lower the lights closer to the substrate unless plants don't look healthy. I am aiming for a lush green color but lets wait and see. Baby steps 

Thanks


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## Alexander Belchenko (19 Sep 2014)

Jaap said:


> I have also noticed that the past days as the weather is daily becoming cooler, the pH of my tank at 7:00 am is daily becoming lower. For example on monday I had a pH of 8.45 the next day 8:42 the next 8:40 and today it was 8:35. Have in mind that at 7:00 am the CO2 is off, it switches off the previous night at 21:00 so its off for 10 hours. I believe that Clive and Tom Barr told me this before that the higher the temperature the less gasses are contained in the water so taking that in mind, a drop in the temperature cause less CO2 to escape the tank thus the lower pH. Does that sound logical?



Yep, that's quite logical for me.


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## Jaap (19 Sep 2014)

My water always looks a bit dirty...its not crystal clear...I don't know how to explain it, maybe there is some dirt particles in water and maybe its a bit cloudy but it doesn't look very clear.....probably its due to the poor plant health?


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## Alexander Belchenko (19 Sep 2014)

Maybe it's mist from CO2? You can check the water when CO2 is off, if it's crystal clear - then most likely you have very small CO2 bubbles around when CO2 is on. Also, I always put filter wool closer to the output end of my canister to ensure small particles are filtered out.


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## Jaap (21 Sep 2014)

Day 55!

My lights are now at 70% intensity with good results.

This is from 1/9/2014





This is 20 days later and gradually increasing light intensity







Thanks!


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## Jaap (26 Sep 2014)

Day 60!

I have increased the light intensity to 80% yesterday. I wonder when will be the right time to stop increasing intensity? Do I have to see negative effects to stop? 

At the moment there is growth for my mosses and my tripartia but not much for montecarlo and parvula.

Also started to add Magnesium which I didn't before...


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## Alexander Belchenko (26 Sep 2014)

You need to slow down your increasing rate. Give about 2 weeks for your plants to accomodate and check the grow. The worst thing you might have from too much light vs. other nutrients - you start to grow algaes. I think green algaes will start first.


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## Jaap (26 Sep 2014)

Day 60!


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## Alexander Belchenko (26 Sep 2014)

I bet your stauro started to grow finally. It's slow starter but then it's go quite steadily.

Your photo still looks dark for me, but as I said I'd slow down with light increase rate from now.


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## Jaap (28 Sep 2014)

Day 62!

Nothing to report. Did an 80% water change today.







Thanks


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## Jaap (30 Sep 2014)

Day 64!

I increased the light intensity to 90%...now I wait a bit longer than usual!


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## Jaap (3 Oct 2014)

Day 67!

Intensity of light is at 90% without any adverse effects. Plants are growing steadily but some are struggling. 

Full front view








Limnophilia looks a  it dull and grows really slow now




Flame moss and Christmas moss are growing slowly






Stayrogyne repens are healthy but not growing much




Eleocharis parvula doesnt grow but montecarlo has runners




Java moss has new leaves and looks like its starting to grow a bit








Tripartia has new leaves every week




Hemianthous Microtrichoides struggles and isnt healthy at all




Fissidens funtainus doesnt look to grow or get any greener




Thanks!


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## Jaap (8 Oct 2014)

Day 72!

The light intensity is now 100% and 55 cm from the substrate. I have added a lid to the aquarium so as to add fish and shrimp in the near future so now its only natural that the light levels have dropped both due to the glass and the condensation on the glass. Next step is to lower the lights closer to the substrate. I am thinking of doing it 5 cm at a time. Does it sound reasonable and safe enough?









Thanks!


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## Alexander Belchenko (8 Oct 2014)

I think 5cm step a time is safe enough. It looks you need lower your lamp at least 15-20 cm, I'd say judging from the last photo.


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## Martin in Holland (8 Oct 2014)

Starting to look a whole lot better.


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## Jaap (8 Oct 2014)

Martin in China said:


> Starting to look a whole lot better.


Yes indeed. But i am a bit worried aboutt cutting back light now that i added the lid. I will lower the light by 5 cm and hope for the best.


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## Jaap (10 Oct 2014)

Day 74!

The intensity is full on at 100%  and the height from the substrate is at 45cm. Lets see how this goes.


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## Bhu (13 Oct 2014)

Hi Jaap, thanks for link to your journal. I had read it before but didn't make any comments as Clive and a few others have covered all the major issues.

I think that your most major issue is the temperature. You added the plants when at 32'C which is way to warm for most plants. It's also your toughest to sort out. If it were me and I really wanted it to work I'd go for a small chiller. It would help keep your tank at a constant temperature. Plants and fish the same they need stable water conditions. They can adapt to extreme conditions as long as the change is gradual and then they are constant. Like clive said also I'd stop using the reactor and dose your co2 directly to the canister outlet or an in tank difusser. Then you will at least see the fine mist of co2 and can see where it's going in your tank. 

The plant list you gave earlier clearly the ones in yor tank and not hugely light demanding so I really don't think that the issue is the lights.

Others mentioned that the spray bar needed to be raised you do want that as high as can be or drop your water level to create good turbulence on the surface.

Also mentioned already when in a chrisis I'd do daily water changes, at least 20% per day and make sure your top up water is pure! No chlorine for sure. I always use RO and add what I want in there. These water company's are dumping all kinds of crap into our drinking water so it can't be trusted from the tap!

You have been very patient as your tank is well into its life over 70 days and if things had been ideal,I'm sure you would have seen great growth. In 2 weeks mine had to be cut back already. Some plants are slow growers but the ones you have should be faster. Especially the Java moss.

Id really hold back on the fish idea until you start to get it looking like you want. But shrimp are another mater. I started mine with 25 amano shrimp and 25 red cherry shrimp in 150lt they are worth their weight in gold and keep all the scum, microfilm and algae at bay.

But back to the first issue I said you had the temperature. If you live in a hot climate soon it could warm up again and 32'C will be way to warm for your shrimp let alone the plants. Maybe you should keep a bare bottom discus tank  just kidding but that is ideal for them. But you will need to know that when the ambient room temperature goes up you can keep your tank cool. I used to have this issue with a reef tank as I ran triple metal halides over it and the room got hot and so did the water. In the end I was running air con in the room and a chiller on the tank. It kept the tank at a cool 26'C for me even in room ambient temperatures of 32'C

Plants do prefer acidic water. A lower acidic Ph helps them in the uptake of nutrients. Maybe your high PH is inhibiting nutrient uptake and could be causing nutrients to no longer be available. Mine is 5.8 to 6.4 it peaks at max co2 exposure at the 5.8 and just before the co2 kicks in Im at about 6.4. I chose a substrate that helps keep the ph down as well as I like the black water look also. So went for tropica aquarium soil.

Like I say your plants are not that light demanding and some should be growing really fast.

For me I'd work on keeping the temperature and PH down. RO water really helps.

Here is my tank after 18 days...





I've had to cut the echinodorus belheri back and the aponogetons as well a lot! I do have a slow grower for a carpet and its a real challenge my lilaeopsis brasiliensis has given me only 2 new leaves in that time and if you look at the start picture if anything has receded! The echinodorus tenellus is doing well though. Both these are at about 55cm from my light source as it rests on the glass drip trays.

Sorry about flooding your post but maybe something here will help.

Temperature constant and down max 28 best 26 try using a small aquatic chiller.
pH down 5.5-6.5 best
Spraybar higher have some surface agitation if you can hear it even better.
Better co2 injection and circulation.
Regular plant feed at the correct doses.

Once this is achieved I'd add amanos and sooner than later as they are worth their weight in gold for cleaning and eating algae.

Good luck and hope you manage to get a good lush green growth of plants soon


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## Jaap (13 Oct 2014)

Hello Bhu and thank you for the long post! It was very informative and did not flood it at all.

So lets start with the changes I have made so far throughout the advice I got from Clive and the other members of the forum:
1. I have raised the spraybar higher and I can now see the ripples of water on the surface and also hear the water rippling.
2. I have added the CO2 through the inline atomizer and into the inlet of the filter. I have left the reactor running also as any CO2 escaping from the filter will dissolve in the reactor.
3. The temperature has dropped now to 26 degrees Celsius since the climate is becoming cooler but before I manages to keep it at those temperature levels as well using a fan. It will become cooler as winter approaches. Next summer I will need a chiller but for now I think I am good.
4. Unfortunately I have no way of keeping my pH down to 5.5. Its around 6.8 when I inject CO2. Our tap water here is very alkanine.
5. I am dosing the ferts correctly and my pH profile indicates a good drop so a good CO2 injection.

I have noticed that plants health improved a I gradually increased the light intensity from 30% to 100% throughout the previous weeks. This is why I thought that it might be the lights that are the problem here and up until now it was the lights that caused poor health conditions. I have added 3 guppies for the past 3 days and I am monitoring them to ensure I don't gas them out. I chose fish since I can see their reaction and understand if they are under distress but I can't do the same with shrimp. After a few days though my aim is to add 5 red cherry shrimp as a start and take it from there.

The lights are now at 100% intensity and 45cm from the substrate. After I add the shrimp I will wait a bit to see if the plant health improves as they will clean detritus and bits of algae from the plants. After a week or so I might lower the lights another 5cm.

That is my plan for the moment!

Thanks! 



Bhu said:


> Temperature constant and down max 28 best 26 try using a small aquatic chiller.
> pH down 5.5-6.5 best
> Spraybar higher have some surface agitation if you can hear it even better.
> Better co2 injection and circulation.
> ...


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## Bhu (13 Oct 2014)

Sounds a good plan to me. Can you not install a reverse osmosis unit? They are quite affordable these days and will bring your water hardness down and PH. You have put so much effort and handwork in I really wish you get some good success. Please do keep us posted with new images and updates of any progress. 
Best wishes
Bhu


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## Bhu (13 Oct 2014)

The plants you have on the left do look very healthy now. Good colour and shape. Now maybe they will grow tall


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## Jaap (15 Oct 2014)

Day 79!

Not much to report apart from the addition of a few Eleocharis Vivipara plants. The lights are on 100% and at 45cm from the substrate with a glass lid full of condensation in between. The pants are doing ok...not too good not too bad. I have also added 3 guppies monitoring them to ensure that tank conditions are good enough to house a few shrimp. 

Maybe I will lower the lights another 5cm to 40cm from the substrate....or is this too risky? Whats the worse that could happen? Some algae? I don't think at this point the plants will melt due to high light and low CO2 because it seems my CO2 and flow are fine. Comparing 2 pictures of the tank two weeks apart, the growth is little but noticeable.

02/10/2014




15/10/2014




Thanks!


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## Jaap (19 Oct 2014)

I have added 3 guppies 8 days ago and they are doing fine. On Thursday I have added one Amano shrimp and one Otto. Today, 4 days later, the Otto is alive but just hangs out in the tank without doing much and the shrimp is dead. I used to dose Excel 5ml per day in this 40L tank but I have stopped doing so on Wednesday. So The day I bought them and onwards I haven't dosed any Excel. Also I have lowered the CO2 a bit once I saw that the Otto isn't moving much so I thought he might not be as ok as the Guppies with the CO2 levels since the Guppies can breath from the surface of the water, however the Otto never showed signs of distress except the fact that it wasn't moving much.

What can be wrong here? I wouldn't want to kill any more Ottos or Amanos....

Thanks


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## Alexander Belchenko (19 Oct 2014)

That could be CO2. Try next time with cherry shrimps. They're not so expensive as amano, usually.


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## Jaap (19 Oct 2014)

Alexander Belchenko said:


> That could be CO2. Try next time with cherry shrimps. They're not so expensive as amano, usually.


But if it was co2 wouldn't the other fish suffer as well?


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## Andy Thurston (19 Oct 2014)

Hi jaap keep an eye on your ottos they will tell you if your co2 is too high
As you have already noticed they dont move as much when co2 is very high and also their gills will become pink/red before they slow down
Have a look at this page of my journal it has some good pics of ottos 
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/andys-60l-cube.31194/page-7
Shrimp tend to lie on their side and die when theres too much co2, either that or jump out of the tank


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## Alexander Belchenko (19 Oct 2014)

IMO, 3 guppies are not enough to be 100% sure.


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## Jaap (19 Oct 2014)

Alexander Belchenko said:


> IMO, 3 guppies are not enough to be 100% sure.


What do u suggest?


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## Bhu (19 Oct 2014)

I'm loosing armano shrimp right now  my co2 is lime green by checker. But I have much more sensitive fish in there cardinal tetras and a pair of discus; which are enjoying eating the said dying armanos. I've lost 4 in 2 days. Maybe due to me dosimg liquid co2 at too high a concentration to kill BBA. Fish including corys and otos are all fine! Red cherry shrimp are fine too. Maybe the armano are more sensitive than we think! Luckily I had 25 so still got a good 20 in there


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## Andy Thurston (19 Oct 2014)

My amano shrimp were ok with 3.5x liquid carbon dose


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## Bhu (19 Oct 2014)

That's good to know. I've been thinking this evening that it's maybe my discus being naughty and killing them. I've only just added them to this planted tank and the shrimps maybe need to learn to keep away as they had the run of it until now. The discus came from a tank that had shrimps but you never see them they hide and must feed at night. When I took the discus out I found loads of shrimps in there that I never knew I had!


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## Alexander Belchenko (20 Oct 2014)

Jaap said:


> What do u suggest?



I'd probably do 50% water change and put air pump for night aeration for at least one week. I know most UKAPS members slightly against air pumps, but these are good for my tanks and much simpler to use.

And also, what's your routine to acclimatise new fish/shrimp for your water chemistry? I found amano shrimps very picky about changing water parameters, usually they escape from the tank the night after I put them it if I don't acclimatise them long enough, at least 1-2 day wiith slowly adding water from my main tank to small carantine tank. I also put air pump there, to be sure new livestock won't fall short on oxygen.


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## Jaap (23 Oct 2014)

Day 87!

The light is at 35cm from substrate now for about one week now. 

The tank has 3 guppies and 3 otos.

I have some algae now...I am not sure what types of algae I have but I think its 3 different ones.

BBA which I possibly got because I stopped dosing Excel and also I have decreased the CO2 injection a bit. So I had both co2 fluctuations and lowered co2.





Diatoms




And on the Staurogyne Repens and Montecarlo I can't recognise it








Some help on the identification of the 3 algaes and some suggestions on how ro overcome the situation please!

Thanks!


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## Bhu (23 Oct 2014)

Definitely BBA and diatoms, the picture is not clear for the 3rd type. Id increase water changes, increase co2 again. you wont like it but reduce the light if you have a dimmer. SAE are very good at eating that type of algae well the bba for sure but can grow up to 6" (not sure if your aquarium can handle that, also they jump out of the tank so you need a lid) and you need the real SAE not the flying fox or Chinese one.

It really is a fine balance! Im working on this too, I get GSA and BBA and im trying to get the right balance between light and co2 with lots of flow.

I also just added red ramshorn snails which are meant to keep the BBA away and eat lots of algae. Waiting to find a real SAE myself...


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## Jaap (23 Oct 2014)

Bhu said:


> Definitely BBA and diatoms, the picture is not clear for the 3rd type. Id increase water changes, increase co2 again. you wont like it but reduce the light if you have a dimmer. SAE are very good at eating that type of algae well the bba for sure but can grow up to 6" (not sure if your aquarium can handle that, also they jump out of the tank so you need a lid) and you need the real SAE not the flying fox or Chinese one.
> 
> It really is a fine balance! Im working on this too, I get GSA and BBA and im trying to get the right balance between light and co2 with lots of flow.
> 
> I also just added red ramshorn snails which are meant to keep the BBA away and eat lots of algae. Waiting to find a real SAE myself...



Ok so even though I have diatoms and bba, for certain plants my growth is not that good. For example hemianthus micranthemoides is barely growing and it was barely growing when my CO2 levels were through the roof. So my only guess is that bba was caused by unstable co2 and that me plants still don't show signs of good growth because of low light levels. 

Sanj from this forum said that he measured the par for Grobeam 600 at 40cm and he got 35 micromols. I am now at 35cm but with a glass lid in between the light and the substrate which means I am guessing I am between 25 and 35 micromols...so together with very little growth and the fact that I am in the range of 25-35 micromols I am thinking maybe I should lower the light down to 30cm...


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## Bhu (23 Oct 2014)

your Staurogyne Repens looks like it is growing really well now. A lovely green too! Carpet plants are hard to grow unless you have a very high tech tank that's balanced to perfection. How about adding another growbeam 600 but reduce the intensity, such that you get a more focused spread? Just an idea might make it worse! Im still in experiment phase myself! The hardest thing is getting the co2 right and once that's done at least it will be stable and that will get rid of a lot of other issues from the algae side. I use 2 x aquagrow but I have a deeper tank.


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## Bhu (23 Oct 2014)

Also if you think it is down to the light, maybe try a different set up. T5 or a different led. That might work better for you


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## Jaap (24 Oct 2014)

Bhu said:


> Also if you think it is down to the light, maybe try a different set up. T5 or a different led. That might work better for you


Well at the moment I can still go closer to the substrate a further 10cm so I can have more light in that sense. However I am not sure if this is the best thing to do considering i have all sorts of algae on one side and on the other side I have little growth...


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## Jaap (27 Oct 2014)

Yesterday I decided to clean my filter after 90 days of no filter maintenance....well I thought it shouldn't be dirty, I only have plants! I couldn't have been more mistaken! The filter was filled with dirt, dead plants, gravel, snails and God know what....I washed everything away with tank water and the filter was clean again. I think it did make a difference in water clarity but it might be my imagination...placebo effect 

I am happy I cleaned the filter, still have all sorts of algae and I hope the 3 Otos I have will help out....I am getting myself 5 red cherry shrimp as well....I don't want to change anything now but after a week or so I think I will be lowering my lights further down to the substrate....I thing it the light that is main factor of little growth.

pH Profile:
11:00 - CO2 ON - 7.96
12:00 - 6.94
13:00 - 6.75
14:00 - Lights ON - 6.60
15:00 - 6.60
16:00 - 6.60
17:00 - 6.60
18:00 - 6.60
19:00 - 6.60
20:00 - 6.60
21:00 - CO2 OFF - 6.60
22:00 - Lights OFF - 6.75

I think my CO2 looks good....circulation also is 100% good....a 1000l/h filter with a spray bar positioned just a few cm below water surface for a 40L tank is more than enough.

Nutrients I am overdosing in a sense using EI....just a few grams more in my solution....

So the remaining culprit is LIGHTS!

It would explain the fact that hemianthous micrathemoides isn't growing bushy but instead grows upwards....the same for hydrocotile triparti....and also fissidens is dark dark green and not growing at all...


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## Alexander Belchenko (27 Oct 2014)

I read opinion from one ada-loving guy thart BBA loves dirty filter. I.e. if you suddenly got BBA bloom you should check and clean your canister.


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## Jaap (27 Oct 2014)

Alexander Belchenko said:


> I read opinion from one ada-loving guy thart BBA loves dirty filter. I.e. if you suddenly got BBA bloom you should check and clean your canister.


So now that the filter is clean will the bba go away or will I have to remove it manually?


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## parotet (27 Oct 2014)

Hi Jaap

Co2 seems ok, so to really make sure it is not a lack of nutrients just double dose during some weeks (that's what I did, then adjust backwards). Despite of what can be read in other forums regarding canister cleaning (some people say they "preserve" the microbes by not cleaning the caister in a year) I think it is very important to clean it frequently. There are very good threads from Darrel explaining why canisters should only work aerobically. Additionally most of the hobbyist here will tell you that having a dirt canister multiplies the chance of having algae issues.

Lights is of course an important issue. If I am not wrong you have gone from dark to very bright in a few weeks... it took me 6 months to go from 40 cm to the current 15 cm above the water level (using a light fixture which is probably less bright than yours and in a larger tank). My rule of thumb is, move 5 cm each 10-15 days and stop if you notice any problem. During this long time, plants have time to adapt (they don't adapt in a few hours/day) and the most important thing: you have time to adapt your setup to the new light conditions.

Looking at your pictures I also think you need more biomass. I have noticed that there is a kind critical biomass in my tanks from which everything becomes easier (if you have previously solved all your problems, other wise it is a big mess)... I think your tank could not be considered as a densely planted tank (in some places it is said that a densely planted tank is the one to which you look from above and you can only see a 10-15% of the substrate). I would introduce some really easy and fast growing stem plants (don't make your life more complicated with difficult plants), just as a temporary stage of your tank... afterwards, you can go for complicated ones.

Jordi


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## Alexander Belchenko (27 Oct 2014)

Jaap said:


> So now that the filter is clean will the bba go away or will I have to remove it manually?



You should remove it as much as you can, but clean filter helps prevent it coming back, as I understand it.


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## Jaap (1 Nov 2014)

Hello,

So now I have BBA and some diatoms. I think the diatoms are subsiding since I cleaned the filter last week. However, the BBA isnt backing down. My co2 levels are now stable or at least I think they are stable because I havent changed injection.

1. If the weather ir changing and temperatures are dropping then unavoitably the water temperature changes which means more co2 is kept in the aquarium. So if one day the weather is hot and the other day its colder then co2 levels are different from one day to the other, does that mean flactuating co2?

2. I see that the plants are still hardly growing most possibly due to low light levels. I have BBA so now do I lower the lights from 35cm to 30cm or do I do nothing until I find a way to get rid of BBA?

Thanks


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## Jaap (9 Nov 2014)

Day 104!

As you can see things are getting worse with BBA...

02/11/2014




09/11/2014




I have tried to do 30% water changes every two days for the past week. The water looks clearer but the BBA grows even more.

I know BBA is CO2 related and its either due to low CO2 or fluctuations in CO2. Weel I don't have any fluctuations in CO2. The pH is stable from 7.51 to 6.41 and remains at 6.41 until lights off. Tom Barr told me that a drop of 1 pH unit means I have injected 30ppm of CO2 aproximately. Maybe it isn't enough. So today I have increased CO2 by a notch and the pH is at 6.24 with the fish doing fine.

The light has remained at 35cm from the substrate for 3 weeks now and the past week I have lowered intensity to 90%.

Here is a video of the co2 system, where I have an inline diffuser going into the inflow of the filter and a reactor attached to the outflow to ensure that any co2 escaping is dissolve completely. I also think that for a 40L tank this co2 injection rate is mad! Just take a look at the bubbles per second.



At this point I am stuck. I don't know what else to do to stop BBA from growing.

Thanks


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## Andy Thurston (9 Nov 2014)

Try topping the tank up daily. I had a huge problem with bba because of evaporation messing with co2 levels 
Bba wont disappear on its own you will have to manually remove it or use liqiud carbon to kill it.
Good luck


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## Jaap (9 Nov 2014)

Big clown said:


> Try topping the tank up daily. I had a huge problem with bba because of evaporation messing with co2 levels
> Bba wont disappear on its own you will have to manually remove it or use liqiud carbon to kill it.
> Good luck


Hi and thanks for the advice. I dont have any evaporation due to a glass lid i use. I know i will try using hydrogen peroxide but i want to at least slow it down...


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## parotet (9 Nov 2014)

Jaap I don't understand why you have a reactor and an inline diffuser... What for? Moreover your co2 tubing seems plenty of water. One device is on the inlet and the other on the outlet? What first comes to my mind is if you have enough flow in this spraybar. It seems quite large (diameter not length) and with all this connected to the pipes I'm not sure if it will deliver enough flow. Do jets hit the front glass?

Another thing. What is your dropchecker saying?

Jordi


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## Jaap (9 Nov 2014)

Hi

I had the reactor first and then I connected the inline diffuser on the inlet and I was too lazy to disconnect the reactor so I thought its ok to leave it there, it will dissolve any co2 escaping the filter and since the filter is 1000 L/h on a 40L tank the flow will be more than enough.

The water in the CO2 tubing comes from the bubble counter....it pushes the water in the tubing but I don't think it causes any problems...well not any that I can see!

Yes the jet hits the front glass just fine. I have plenty of flow.

The dropchecker is yellow and when I move the DC in the tank in various positions it still remains yellow.



parotet said:


> Jaap I don't understand why you have a reactor and an inline diffuser... What for? Moreover your co2 tubing seems plenty of water. One device is on the inlet and the other on the outlet? What first comes to my mind is if you have enough flow in this spraybar. It seems quite large (diameter not length) and with all this connected to the pipes I'm not sure if it will deliver enough flow. Do jets hit the front glass?
> 
> Another thing. What is your dropchecker saying?
> 
> Jordi


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## parotet (9 Nov 2014)

Jaap, just a note to your last post. If you have a look to your filter instructions you will see that there is a table with some figures for different models (page 6 in English). Fluval 305 does not have an output of 1000 lph, this the pump output. Have a look to the 7th column in which filter circulation is provided. This is the output, 710 lph. However this is probably measured without media and very short tubing (not explained in this document but for example if you have a look to JBL instructions they explain this very well and even give you the real figures, with tubing and all the media). As explained many times in this forum the real figure can be up to 40% less... Let say you have around 400 lph. Now let's assume that this reactor you don't use is restricting the flow by 25% (not sure because I have never used one, but I bet I can be even more)... This give us not more than 300 lph. 

Next time you clean the filter just measure it. Take the outlet tube, put it in a bucket and measure which volume is delivered in one minute. Then do the calculations and check what you really have as flow. I'm not saying this is your problem, but just to point out that this reactor is not doing any good there.

Jordi


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## Jaap (9 Nov 2014)

parotet said:


> Jaap, just a note to your last post. If you have a look to your filter instructions you will see that there is a table with some figures for different models (page 6 in English). Fluval 305 does not have an output of 1000 lph, this the pump output. Have a look to the 7th column in which filter circulation is provided. This is the output, 710 lph. However this is probably measured without media and very short tubing (not explained in this document but for example if you have a look to JBL instructions they explain this very well and even give you the real figures, with tubing and all the media). As explained many times in this forum the real figure can be up to 40% less... Let say you have around 400 lph. Now let's assume that this reactor you don't use is restricting the flow by 25% (not sure because I have never used one, but I bet I can be even more)... This give us not more than 300 lph.
> 
> Next time you clean the filter just measure it. Take the outlet tube, put it in a bucket and measure which volume is delivered in one minute. Then do the calculations and check what you really have as flow. I'm not saying this is your problem, but just to point out that this reactor is not doing any good there.
> 
> Jordi


Ok I will consider removing the reactor...here is a pic when I lowered the  water level once...dont be alarmed that the spraybat is low...its was set just to take the picture so water doesn't spill out.








does it look good to you?


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## parotet (9 Nov 2014)

Sure, looks good.

Jordi


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## Jaap (9 Nov 2014)

parotet said:


> Sure, looks good.
> 
> Jordi



So what might be causing the BBA?

Does the bubbles per second injection rate look too much for a 40L to you?


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## parotet (9 Nov 2014)

As you know bubble rate doesn't mean anything really, but yes it looks quite a lot... I use an inline atomizer (outlet tubing) in a larger tank and with 2 bps my tank looks like 7up. I switch it 2 hours before lights and the DC in any corner gets lime green when lights on, yellowish at the end of the day.

Jordi


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## Jaap (9 Nov 2014)

parotet said:


> As you know bubble rate doesn't mean anything really, but yes it looks quite a lot... I use an inline atomizer (outlet tubing) in a larger tank and with 2 bps my tank looks like 7up. I switch it 2 hours before lights and the DC in any corner gets lime green when lights on, yellowish at the end of the day.
> 
> Jordi


Do you have a pH profile?


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## parotet (9 Nov 2014)

I did it when I set up the tank one year and a half ago more or less. My KH is very high, somewhere between 12 and 15. I managed to have a 1.2 pH drop.

Jordi


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## Crossocheilus (9 Nov 2014)

parotet said:


> I did it when I set up the tank one year and a half ago more or less. My KH is very high, somewhere between 12 and 15. I managed to have a 1.2 pH drop.
> 
> Jordi



And fish were ok? Did you have a lot of surface agitation?


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## parotet (10 Nov 2014)

They were fine yes, I have even increased the bubble rate a bit more when plants were very grown without issues. The only time I had problems with fish my flow and distribution was very poor. I also try to have good rippling even if this way I am degassing a little bit, but I reach the co2 levels I want and I also get rid of surface oil

Jordi


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## Jaap (15 Nov 2014)

Today I have removed the co2 reactor from the outlet of the filter. This has increased water circulation. However, at some point,  the fish were gasping at surface and shrimp were lying sideways.  I carried out a big wc and all was good. I then lowered co2 injection but unfortunately my ph meter is not working. Now I don't know if the co2 is adequate...


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## Jaap (15 Nov 2014)

Any ideas on how to go about this? I have a drop checher but in my experience a yellow dc isn't enough...


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## DivZero (15 Nov 2014)

If I understand correctly you removed the CO2 that wasn't being used. Now with increased flow your water is probably having more surface movement expelling more CO2 from your tank. As a result your pH will rise. Furthermore the increased circulation could be picking/stirring up debris that has been collecting in the plants/soil. Ammonia toxicity increases with pH and the increased flow, combined with a higher pH could have been the problem. You could try testing for ammonia and nitrite, just to be sure. Either way, your wc seems to have remedied the situation.


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## Jaap (19 Nov 2014)

Day 114!







pH profile - 12:00 - pH 7.94 - CO2 ON
13:00 - pH 6.99
14:00 - pH 6.80 - Lights ON
15:00 - pH 6.73
16:00 - pH 6.71
17:00 - pH 6.71
18:00 - pH 6.71
19:00 - pH 6.71
20:00 - pH 6.71
21:00 - pH 6.71 - CO2 OFF
22:00 - pH 6.88 - Lights OFF

Growth is still minimal. Today I have increased the intensity of the Grobeam 600 back to 100%.

I have also removed the external reactor a couple of days ago thus increasing water circulation.

I have added hydrogen peroxide with a syringe to one of my BBA infected rocks and left it there for 10 minutes before doing a water change. I used 2ml of 3% hydrogen peroxide. It did nothing to it! I will try again soon!

Thanks!


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## Martin in Holland (20 Nov 2014)

The effect of H2O2 can be seen after a few days, but if you have problems with BBA, it's better not to get more light into the tank...better have slow growth than lots of algae.


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## Jaap (20 Nov 2014)

The situation with the tank is getting funnier by the day. It is like nothing is working towards the tank being healthy and all of the bad karma of the aquarium world is in it.

My new observation? While all the fish in the tank are swimming about happily, my Amano Shrimp are just chillaxing on the rocks....doing nothing! That's what I got them for right? To do nothing!


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## Brian Murphy (20 Nov 2014)

I've been having problems with BBA recently and as I can't 'Up' my Co2 input anymore without causing harm to the fish I have started using Liquid Carbon.  I am hoping it will add that bit extra that i need.  Other than that I have ordered some SAE from my lfs.


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## Jaap (20 Nov 2014)

I am not expecting the Amano Shrimp to clear the BBA but at least they could go through the moss and clear it from any detritus matter....its ridiculous....I think now they are having a conversation under a branch...I wonder what they are talking about?


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## Andy Thurston (20 Nov 2014)

Perhaps their full from eating all the other algae etc.


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## Jaap (20 Nov 2014)

Hahaha well Big Clown the only algae in there is BBA and nobody is eating it obviously. They are just lazy or they enjoy hanging around pissing me off...


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## flygja (21 Nov 2014)

I had unsolveable BBA for a long long time. 8 months maybe more. CO2 and circulation may not have been stable and I tried all sorts of ways to fix that. I'd spot dose excel and kill whatever BBA I could find but they'd still come back after 2 weeks or so. In the end I managed to  control it by adding 10 1-1.5 inch long SAEs. Same lights, CO2, ferts, flow. No more BBA!


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## Jaap (26 Nov 2014)

I think that BBA has stopped growing everywhere. However, the plants arent growing either and so I am thinking of getting a TMC 1500 Natural Light to replace the Grobeam 600. At least I will have more light to experiment with.

Any thoughts?


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## Jaap (30 Dec 2014)

Day 155!

It has been a long time since I have posted an update on the tank. This is because I haven't changed much but things aren't going grate....I have very little growth and because of that I believe the leaves are getting old and covered with some BBA. 

On the 25th of December I have installed a TMC 1500 ND tile. It is suspended above the tank 40cm from the substrate and at 50% intensity so as not to be much stronger than the TMC 600 I previously had. I will gradually increase the intensity of the light along the way in order not to shock the plants.

Here are a few pics of the tank:


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## Bhu (30 Dec 2014)

Hi thanks for the update. I'm also getting a lot of BBA and hair algae now too  I have done the opposite as I get good plant growth so I have reduced my lighting period to just 4 hours at 80% and 4 hours fading in and out.

Hope the new tile sorts your issues out keep us informed.

Best wishes for this festive season

Bhu


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## Bhu (31 Dec 2014)

Hey I can see the pics now. Looking really good Jaap. Just the algae to deal with.


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## Jaap (31 Dec 2014)

Bhu said:


> Hey I can see the pics now. Looking really good Jaap. Just the algae to deal with.


The algae is really bad though...also growth is stunned and lush green coulour not present...still a long way to perfection  thanks though for the positive comments!


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## GHNelson (31 Dec 2014)

Hi
What water are you using for water changes.....and what type of wood is that?
hoggie


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## Bhu (31 Dec 2014)

Yes my algae is really bad too. Especially where the plants are at the top of the tank directly under the lights.


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## Jaap (31 Dec 2014)

hogan53 said:


> Hi
> What water are you using for water changes.....and what type of wood is that?
> hoggie


Regular tap water...hard water...wood is from petshop...driftwood I guess...doesnt leak tannins!


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## GHNelson (31 Dec 2014)

You could try using 50% RO water for a few months!
Get some floating plants....this will help!
I would remove the wood and clean it give it a good scrub with diluted bleach then wash it thoroughly with dechlorinator.
hoggie


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## parotet (31 Dec 2014)

I am also using very hard tap water (GH from 21 to 26, and KH around 12) and I can manage to have good growth without relevant algae problem (obviously not completely algae fee tank, if this exists...). Not really sure if a softer water would make my life easier concerning CO2 management (especially consuming much less co2) and some some nutrients uptake... but I really doubt this is your problem. My low tech nano  (also using this water) is even more algae free... 

I suffered from brown diatoms in my nano tank some months ago and I tried everything written and explained in this and other forums... But I finally I understood that a complete reboot was needed. I cannot explain why: too much algae spores on the substrate? Bad condition of the plants remaining? My guess is that too many things were wrong and that without experience it was going to be difficult to reboot a tank without a major change. This is why I got rid of all the plants that were not perfect, I took out all the equipment and hardscape and cleaned it very well. Then I vacuumed the substrate (something I don't do anymore), went to the LFS and grabbed some bunches of plants. I also added all the easy plants I had from the other tank and friends... And began from scratch. I'm subscribed to your thread and honestly I cannot imagine what is going wrong. It looks that you have work on your flow, co2 profile, light...

Jordi

Edit: I haven't found what's your KH. What is your dropchecker saying. Another thing I have notice in my hard water tanks is that I need a yellow DC at lights on (fish and shrimp are perfect), if my DC is just lime green I have BBA (I'm pumping 2 bps of co2 during 3 hours before lights on! Otherwise I don't get the levels I need to avoid BBA)


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## Jaap (1 Jan 2015)

parotet said:


> I am also using very hard tap water (GH from 21 to 26, and KH around 12) and I can manage to have good growth without relevant algae problem (obviously not completely algae fee tank, if this exists...). Not really sure if a softer water would make my life easier concerning CO2 management (especially consuming much less co2) and some some nutrients uptake... but I really doubt this is your problem. My low tech nano  (also using this water) is even more algae free...
> 
> I suffered from brown diatoms in my nano tank some months ago and I tried everything written and explained in this and other forums... But I finally I understood that a complete reboot was needed. I cannot explain why: too much algae spores on the substrate? Bad condition of the plants remaining? My guess is that too many things were wrong and that without experience it was going to be difficult to reboot a tank without a major change. This is why I got rid of all the plants that were not perfect, I took out all the equipment and hardscape and cleaned it very well. Then I vacuumed the substrate (something I don't do anymore), went to the LFS and grabbed some bunches of plants. I also added all the easy plants I had from the other tank and friends... And began from scratch. I'm subscribed to your thread and honestly I cannot imagine what is going wrong. It looks that you have work on your flow, co2 profile, light...
> 
> ...


My kh is around 9. My dc is yellow before lights on  i think that bba attacks the old leaves of my plants and only stayrogyne repens because its such a slow growing plant in my tank...most of the plants in my tank are growing slowly and so mostly are old leaves that deteriorate.  Thats why ai am hopping that an increase in my light levels will kickstart thw growing so as new healthy leaves show up and I will be able to cut the old ones. I will get there...light and ro is the only things left  i have tried everything else!


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## parotet (1 Jan 2015)

Before messing with RO (expensive, not very sustainable in areas with lack of water and a mess for the water changes) I would definitely try a complete reboot (as mentioned, I would get rid of the JBL Manado and use a complete new substrate system, a ok would make sure you fill your tank with the easiest and cheaper stem plants you can find)

Jordi


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## alex.mooring (1 Jan 2015)

As above manado has no nutrients in it at all for your plants and could be the missing link. How you get things sorted


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## Jaap (1 Jan 2015)

Shouldn't the EI fertilazation regime be covering me on nutrients though?

Day 158!

Today I have increased my light intensity by 5% to 55%. I have also cut back on some plants, cleaned the glass from algae, added some hydrogen peroxide on the leaves of the stayrogyne repens and made a 70% water change. Lets see where that takes us!


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## Jaap (7 Jan 2015)

Day 163!

Today I have increased the light intensity by 5% to 60%. 

I believe 5% every 5 days is an ok increase so as not to shock the plants.

I am also double dosing micros and macros!


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## Jaap (14 Jan 2015)

Day 170!

Today I have increased the intensity from 60% to 65%.

Things look better now. Plants are healthier!


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## Jaap (16 Jan 2015)

Back to 60% from 65% because I saw my montecarlo turning white and wasn't sure is it was melting or needed more micros....anyway again time will show!


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## Jaap (30 Jan 2015)

Day 186!

Today I have increased the intensity from 60% to 65% again. Double dosing continues. Lets see what happens.


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## Brian Murphy (31 Jan 2015)

Jaap said:


> Back to 60% from 65% because I saw my montecarlo turning white and wasn't sure is it was melting or needed more micros....anyway again time will show!



Did the monte carlo come through in the end? Was it the light ?


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## Jaap (31 Jan 2015)

I think it was too much hydrogen peroxide....because only one side of the monte carlo was affected


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## Jaap (6 Feb 2015)

Day 193!

Today I have decided to get rid of the algae by overdosing Seachem Excel for 10-14 days and then gradually decreasing the dose until I stop. Then I will observe if I have algae issues again so as to address them from the root cause because at the moment I am thinking that this algae was from my previous mistakes and continues to grow!


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## REDSTEVEO (7 Feb 2015)

Hi Jaap,

I have had a good look through this journal. Isn't it frustrating when you think you are doing everything by the book and you still get problems with algae

Even with the advice from everyone from UKAPS and reading all the threads on algae no matter how experienced we think we are, we still get problems with the dreaded algae!

So what is causing your problems? I see you have had some input from Clive. Clive has helped me out loads of times and I have always followed his advice and he has been right almost 100% of the time. He is absolutely right when he says nutrients don't cause algae.

Algae is caused by excessive light over too long a period. Full stop.

So what would I do now in your situation? For what it is worth here is my humble opinion.

The way I see it, for this tank you have two options.

1. Stick with it, work out how to deal with it and learn from the process so that you develop your knowledge to prevent it happening again next time you set up a new tank, or,

2. Strip the whole thing down and start again.

From the last photograph above it looks like you are making some progress, definitely moving in the right direction. From the earlier photographs it looked to me like you were adding too much Macro and Micro nutrients for the amount of plant mass you had in the tank and definitely too much light too early in the tanks development.

The stem plants looked long and leggy, I would have been pruning these back and re-planting the cuttings to thicken up the plant mass. The stuargyrene repens plants looked stressed and weak and were not strong enough to absorb the nutirents you were adding or make effective use of the light you were using.

So if you have got weak and damaged plants with leaves melting etc, you are chucking in loads of nutrients and using high intensity lighting over too long a photo period, something else has to take advantage of these conditions, have you guessed what it is yet? Yep, algae 

So with weak and stressed plants you then started double and treble dosing with Seachem Flourish Excel trying to kill the algae but finished up stressing out the plants even more. Also one of the things that caused your problems was that the plants were trying to grow above the substrate before they had chance to put down a really strong root base. If you are using a substrate which is neutral and contains no nutrients or fertiliser whatsoever, the foliage above the substrate might be getting nutrients from the water column but without a healthy root system to support them the plants are going to struggle.

If I had been in the same situation as you were in here is what I would have done. It is not too late to do this now either.

1. Reset the water column back to zero. By this I mean do 3 x 50% to 80% water changes over the period of a week. Do this until you are absolutely positive that you have removed all traces of Macro and Micro nutrients. (I have no idea what your Nitrate/NPK levels are but I am guessing they were off the scale because your plants were not healthy enough to make use of them)

While you are doing the water changes physically remove by hand as much algae as possible. Use a pipe cleaning brush and twirl it through the plants to trap and remove as much algae as possible.

2. Temporarily suspend the use of EI or adding any fertilisers into the water column. If your substrate is neutral buy some of the best quality plant root fertilser tabs you can find, (*not* the big round clay balls from JBL) and push them into the substrate all around the plant base. Trim and prune the plants, especially the leggy stem plants and re-plant them.

3. Cut out all of your lights for at least one week. A total blackout covering the tank might be too much but at least leave all the lights off and give the roots some time to find the nutrients in the root tabs and establish themselves. 

4. Stop using Floursih Excel or dumping any other chemicals (peroxide or anything else) into the water.

5. Looking at the pictures of your spray bars the flow around your tank looks more than enough to me, maybe even a bit too much. You just need to make sure the CO2 is being picked up and moved with the water. HOWEVER and this is just my opinion, there is no point in cranking up the CO2 to the point where your drop checkers turn to a lemon yellow colour, or to the point where the CO2 is so high it is killing your amano shrimp and your fish, ESPECIALLY if the plant mass is so low in the first place, it is just a waste of your CO2. As the plants increase and establish themselves you can increase the levels of CO2 and gradually re-introduce the lighting, and if you want or feel it is the right time start re-introducing the EI Ferts.

I have had good and bad experiences with EI. When you get the balance right between water quality, lighting, plant mass, fish stock and the right EI dosing regime the results can be spectacular, get it wrong like I did (this was totally down to me) it caused me quite afew problems. If I was giving anyone advice who was just starting out using EI, my advice would be to calculate what you think you need for the size of your tank and the amount of plants you have, and then halve the dose for the first few weeks to see how it goes. The plants will tell you if something is not right, and you can always increase slowly over a period of time to see how the plants adjust.

6. Remember two things, 1)The only things that happen quickly in aquariums are bad things, and 2) The only things that happen quickly in aquariums are bad things.

Best of luck with it.

Cheers,

Steve.


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## Jaap (8 Feb 2015)

Hi Steve and thank you for taking the time to write such a helpful post.

I think I figured out what went wrong the first place. This was definitely the light. I had my TMC GroBeam 600 at 50% from the very first day and the low light did not help the plants grow and become strong at all. Another member in this forum did not get growth at all from the light and it was a dry start method with intensity of the grobeam 600 at 100%. I now have the TMC 1500 tile which is as twice as powerful as the Grobeam 600 and it is set at 65% intensity. Again the growth that I get from my plants is very little. It takes a month for a stem plant to grow 10cm. For once, it is the light. 

Now because the light was the problem and I did not think a very low light intensity would cause problems, I was looking for answers in CO2 and circulation. Playing with the CO2 caused BBA and it is there since then but I observe it is multiplying as more light is added. However, at 65% I am still lacking light since the montecarlo has not fully grown to occupy the substrate which is a patch of 10cmx10cm, and we are on to our 200th day! 

I have begun overdosing Seachem Excel only the past 2 days with the thought that if I kill all algae and leave everything as it is, then when I stop dosing Excel the algae will not appear again and the plants will still grow very very very slowly. If this is the case then I will slowly increase my light intensity. If when I stop dosing Excel, the algae reappears, then I will try the CO2 misting method. If that doesn't help the plants grow better and outgrow the algae, then as a last resort, I will overdose Seachem Excel once more to kill all algae and then increase the light levels to 85%-90% to see if the plants grow healthy to out-compete the algae.

If all of the above do not work then I am tearing this tank appart and starting a new one with a substrate packed of nutrients.

I am pretty sure though that good CO2 + good Circulation + good Nutrients + good Lighting = good healthy Growth! So, by the process of elimination, if the first 3 elements of our equation are there then it only means the lighting is the one that is causing troubles...

These are my thoughts and my humble opinion from all the days of patience, disappointments, excitements, frustration, research that I have had the past 195 days of this journal...

Thanks


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## REDSTEVEO (8 Feb 2015)

Hi Jaap,

If the plants are really healthy to start with they will grow, I have witnessed plants growing even during a complete blackout for a week, the only thing that you missed out in your equation is 'a healthy root system' to sustain the plant above the substrate. Eleocharis and Monte Carlo need the roots to be able to sprout new shoots. 

Cheers,

Steve


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## Jaap (12 Apr 2015)

Day 258!









After increasing water changes to once every two days, the tank was invaded with diatoms. I then decided to just let it be and that seemed to keep them at bay. I still have some BBA but its not that bad. Today I have increased light intensity from 65% to 70%. I have also trimmed back the Tripartita almost completely because old yellow leaves were trapped under the newer layers of leaves.

Lets see what happens now!


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## Jaap (5 May 2015)

Day 279!

Increased light intensity to 75%. Also cut back on alot of plants. Plants are not looking good. Also increased co2 because weather is getting hotter. alot of bba as well.


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## Andy Thurston (5 May 2015)

is that monte carlo or hc at the front, either way it needs a big trim and trimming often


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## Jaap (5 May 2015)

Big clown said:


> is that monte carlo or hc at the front, either way it needs a big trim and trimming often


monte carlo and i just trimmed it


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## Jaap (20 May 2015)

UPDATE:

A week ago I came to the conclusion along with the advice of other forum members, that the dirt produced in the tank continuously is what caused major algae problems to me. So i have decided to rip everything out except a few Stayrogyne Repens and the Monte Carlo. I have siphoned unbelievable amounts of mulm and I am sure there is more lurking between the leaves of the remaining plants. A week from the major uprooting and the situtation isn't getting any better so I have started making changes for educational purposes.

1st change was to increase the light intensity by 10% from 70% to 80%. I have seen other members of the forum with same tank and light to have the light at the same distance and at 100% intensity. This change I might say has increased algae a bit.

2nd change was yesterday and I have decreased the flow of my filter. A 1000 l/h filter in a 40L tank is too much. As ardjuna mentioned, the plant should be able to control its leaves to the direction of the light. My dwarf hairgrass plants were bent all the time and the Monte Carlo though was too stiff to bent. Awaiting to see the effects.

3rd change will be to decrease the CO2 levels. I have a drop checker solution that measures 20ppm of CO2 and is currently yellow so I assume I might have 30-40 ppm. 

You might ask why I am doing all this changes and I am going against all the things people say. Yes, I am doing this for 3 reasons. 1st is that I have done all the things people say and I have failed. 2nd I want to learn, see the effects of each change and 3rd I have seen the setup of a friend that has a 60L tank and even the water we use is the same, he has successfully grown very healthy plants with co2 levels that turn the 20ppm drop checker solution to green and flow half the flow of my 1000 l/h filter in a 60L tank. The only difference is the 48w t5ho fluorescent lamps above the tank, which look brighter than my 1500 ND TMC tile. 

So yes, I have dared to increase light, decrease flow and decrease CO2, going against all the forum advice but at least I can learn from my actions....lets see!





My friends tank with low flow and low co2


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## Alexander Belchenko (20 May 2015)

Glad you still keep trying to find the balance. I'm sorry to see you did not succeed so far.
I just want to note you need to be patient with each change: allow your plants to adapt to changes during 1-2 weeks *before* doing any conclusion is the change helped or not.
I also think T5 might be better for the plants in your conditions. That's just my non-scientific personal opinion.
BTW, your friend have very nice tank. I'm sure you can find the right path very soon too. Beware of hot summer though! Try to keep temp of your water under control.
And keep posting your progress. Don't give up!


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## Jaap (1 Jun 2015)




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## Edvet (2 Jun 2015)

Good to see you keep on it as a learning proces! Volhouden!


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## Jaap (7 Jun 2015)

Update: For a long time I had diatoms. Even after a year of running the tank. So I asked Tom Barr what might be the problem. I told him I don't use dechlorinator and he told me that I should start using. Furthermore, I had filamentous algae and Tom pointed out that it is due to lack of biomass. On top of that my glass is filled with green dust algae. Also some of the leaves of Stayrogyne Repens have BBA. All the algae species in one place  

Actions: 50% water changes every 2 days using dechlorinator and lowering the light intensity from 80% to 70%. Filter cleaning every 2 weeks.

Lets see what happens...I will keep you posted!


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## Tim Harrison (7 Jun 2015)

Tom is the man...it's a thin line btw success and failure, I'm sure you'll get there, it's just a matter of perseverance...


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## Jaap (16 Jun 2015)

Filamentous algae is nearly gone. The Excel overdose is working but also some Monte Carlo melting. I have lowered the dosage of Excel and also lowered the light intensity from 70% to 60%. 

I have purchase this drop checker indicator that is for 30 ppm:
https://www.aquasabi.com/co2/co2-drop-checker/aqua-rebell-co2-check-250-ml

It is yellow which means my CO2 hopefully is above 30 ppm. With so little biomass I believe it is an overkill and so I will decrease the CO2 soon.

Thanks


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## flygja (19 Jun 2015)

Jaap said:


> You might ask why I am doing all this changes and I am going against all the things people say. Yes, I am doing this for 3 reasons. 1st is that I have done all the things people say and I have failed. 2nd I want to learn, see the effects of each change and 3rd I have seen the setup of a friend that has a 60L tank and even the water we use is the same, he has successfully grown very healthy plants with co2 levels that turn the 20ppm drop checker solution to green and flow half the flow of my 1000 l/h filter in a 60L tank. The only difference is the 48w t5ho fluorescent lamps above the tank, which look brighter than my 1500 ND TMC tile.



 When I read what you were about to do, I thought you were seriously going about in the wrong direction. But I applaud you for trying. Especially when you have a friend's similar setup that you can refer to. I have had some inexplicable issues with my tank too, even with all the common advice (lower light of ~50 PAR at substrate, CO2 drop checker is yellow, EI or PPS Pro ferts, more than 10x turnover, spraybar the entire back of the tank) but still have very slow growth and some algae. I'm definitely waiting for your results of this experiment.


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## Jaap (9 Jul 2015)

Update:

I have decreased light intensity from 70% slowly slowly down to 55% since there was too much green dust algae on the glass every few days.

I have started doing water changes every 2 days and also use dechlorinator for my water changes and top-ups.

CO2 and nutrients are the same.

The plants seem to be growing slowly and steadily but I don't seem to be able to get rid of the filamentous brown algae! I pull it out with the water changes and the next day its there.

Another problem that I have is that I did not cut back on the Monte Carlo and it grew thick for quite some time now. This caused the lower layers to melt and the keep on melting. I gave it a trim 2 days ago and now I am waiting for a small recovery so I can trim it down some more so as to expose the melting part of it. I will remove all the melted leaves with a couple of water changes and hopefully it will recover.

Also I have noticed that the plants are pearling like mad. Its like a 7up can in there but that doesn't really tell you much.

Any thoughts?


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## Jaap (15 Jul 2015)

15/07/2015

Still fighting with algae and melting MC. I have cut the MC even shorter and continue to do twice a week WC. Still a long way to go but after decreasing light intensity things are a bit better. Alot of pearling too. 

Next water change there will be alot of debris to remove. Also a filter cleanup is necessary after all that cutting of MC.

Here are some pictures:


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## willsy (28 Feb 2018)

Jaap said:


> 15/07/2015
> 
> Still fighting with algae and melting MC. I have cut the MC even shorter and continue to do twice a week WC. Still a long way to go but after decreasing light intensity things are a bit better. Alot of pearling too.
> 
> ...


Hi Jaap

How did it go with the Grobeams in the end? Any success?

Cheers 

Will


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## REDSTEVEO (13 Mar 2018)

Well done Jaap for persevering, but I would have given up on that ages ago and stripped everything out, emptied the tank and started again. When choosing the substrate you only get one shot at it, so don't skimp on the quality. I have had some success recently with the JBL Volcanic Base Substrate, and the JBL Plant Soil. It is similar to ADA Amazonian but it doesn't break down into dust like the ADA stuff.

Cheers,

Steve


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## Digitalfiend (14 Mar 2018)

Old thread but all I could think about when reading it was: *change the substrate*! You tried virtually everything but that.  Kudos for you sticking with it but either their is something wrong with your water or the substrate was the problem for your choice of plants.  I've only been in the hobby for a few years but with ADA Amazonia I've never had a problem with plants growing, regardless of high or low lighting.  Problems with algae, sure but never growth. 

You could tell something wasn't right with the tank as with all the CO2 you were injecting and the lighting, that Tripartita should have been taking over the tank within a week - that stuff grows aggressively well.  I setup a low-light tank for my mom and threw some MC in for a carpet not really expecting it to grow but with a Finnex Planted+ (dimmed) and no co2, ferts, or Excel, it has been slowly growing in over the course of a few months and looks awfully healthy.  Tiny little leaves for sure, but it's a pretty good carpet now.  That's with ADA soil.

If you try again, get a soil with some ferts in it, plant heavily, get the CO2 to the point where the drop checker is yellow, set your light to 100%, try to keep the water temp between 25-28c and I'll be shocked if you don't get better growth.  Once everything gets established, start slowly dialling the CO2 back and adjusting the lights accordingly so that the drop checker is a light green by lights off.  Then add livestock.


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