# EI DAILY dry dosing in 54l



## bigmatt (27 May 2010)

Hey all,
Firstly - really sorry if this answer is already posted somewhere on the thread - i haven't had time to review all the topics and i'm abou to run out of TPN+!!!
I'd like to start dosing EI (or a variation thereof) on my 54l tank.  I don't expect anyone to work the numbers out for me (i'm not THAT cheeky) but if anyone has them to hand...(or maybe i am that cheeky...)
Rather than dosing every other day i'd prefer to dose dry salts on a daily basis directly into the tank, combining the trace mix (which i'll be getting from AE) with the dry powders.  I'm hoping to mix up a big batch of the powders and then just dose a daily amount, so hopefully my wife can dose for me more simply when i'm away with work.  
I was going to nick the numbers from here
http://theplantedtank.co.uk/EI.htm
And (having just worked it out) the numbers are pretty tiny - effectively adding half a teaspoon of combined powders per week.  I was therefore thinking of mixing up a batch (actual numbers are unimportant but a ratio of 4KNO3:1KH2PO4:1Trace), then seperating off half a teaspoon of the pre-mixed powders per week into an airtight container and just dosing a pinch per day.  Clearly this is not a very "measured" approach, but i'm taking the "estimative" bit to heart!
Does anyone have experience of using this "Dry TPN+" approach, and is it viable?  
As always, many, many thanks for taking the time to look,
Matt


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## ceg4048 (29 May 2010)

In general, traces ought not to be mixed with, or added to the tank at the same time as PO4. The risk is that the Fe combines with PO4 to cause an insoluble precipitate thereby robbing the plants of both Fe and PO4. JamesC does have an all-in-one formula which combines these ingredients with some others to prevent or delay this reaction.

Cheers,


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## bigmatt (29 May 2010)

Yeah - i read about this but I was hoping to avoid the precipitate by dosing very small quantities into a very high volume.  But you definitely think it'll still precipitate out?
Thanks as always,
Matt


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## ceg4048 (29 May 2010)

Yeah, there is always a risk. A better trick Ed Seeley proposed was to simply keep them separate and to dose them slowly from opposite ends of the tank. You can even just does the traces a few hours later in the day as well.

Cheers,


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (29 May 2010)

bigmatt said:
			
		

> Hey all,
> 
> I'd like to start dosing EI (or a variation thereof) on my 54l tank.  I don't expect anyone to work the numbers out for me (i'm not THAT cheeky) but if anyone has them to hand...(or maybe i am that cheeky...)
> Matt



Matt

here is your mix 54 ltr is approx 15 US gallons for a for 4 week period

KN03 = 1.5 tps mixed with 600 mls of warm tap water 

KH2PO4 = 3/4 tps as above

MGS04 = 4.5 tps as above

CSM-B = 3/8 tps - round this one up to 1/2 tps mixed with 200 mls of tap water 

Regards
paul.


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## Garuf (29 May 2010)

I think I've mixed a trick, all the time I've been using EI I've been making a stock batch of a fixed recipe from the EI thread then I've just upped or lowered the dose does this mean I've been chronically under/overdosing?


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## CeeJay (30 May 2010)

Hi Garuf


			
				Garuf said:
			
		

> does this mean I've been chronically under/overdosing?


From what I've worked out, if you chronically overdose, your plant health will be top notch and you'll have nothing to worry about. However, if you were to underdose your plants would soon let you know.
So if your plants are healthy, I would just carry on as you are.
I know where you're at with the fixed recipe, as I was there myself once. But now I'm tweaking concentration levels here, there and everywhere to work out what's best for my situation, and using a lot less powder into the bargain  .


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## bigmatt (3 Jun 2010)

Flyfisherman said:
			
		

> bigmatt said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Thanks Paul - sometimes being cheeky pays off! 
And thanks to everyone for their input.  Ferts arrived today (though i forgot the Epsom Salts.  Bugger!) so i'll see how i get on and report back. First thing is going to be a precipitate test in a small volume just to see what happens.  Then when i've found out Clive is right    i'll do what he tells me    
Thanks as always folks - i'd be on my backside without you!
Matt


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## bigmatt (3 Jun 2010)

Sorry - me again!
Just looked at my local water report online and it states that Magnesium is at 6.45 mg/l.  It's a long time since i did chemistry so i can't work out what that means in ppm and whether i need to add more to get to the 10ppm i think is the target.  Help from someone with a bigger brain would be very much appreciated! Here's the link to the report : 

http://www.yorkshirewater.com/extra-ser ... x?loc=WF10 4ER&lat=53.721754&lng=-1.350808s

Cheers!
Matt


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## bigmatt (3 Jun 2010)

Just tried mixing up the ferts and adding half teaspoon to approx 1 litre of water in a clear bowl.  Didn't get any visible precipitate!  am i being slightly naive in expecting any precipitate to be visible?  COuld any of the experts with lab access try the same thing and run the mixture through clever lab gear (in my limited knowledge i was thinking about either a centrifuge to spin out any precipitate or a spectrometer to identify the Iron Phosphate) to work out if this is an actual problem, or only a theretical risk in the quantities we typically dose.   I didn't explain earlier but the other reason for me wanting to dose an all in one is that we have a fortnight away coming up and rather than spend a small fortune on a dosing pump i was hoping to put dry powders in a segmented automated feeder
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/F14-FISH-MATE-AUT ... 53e1a0b9d4
and let that do the dosing whilst away

Thanks again!
Matt


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## ceg4048 (3 Jun 2010)

bigmatt said:
			
		

> Sorry - me again!
> Just looked at my local water report online and it states that Magnesium is at 6.45 mg/l.  It's a long time since i did chemistry so i can't work out what that means in ppm and whether i need to add more to get to the 10ppm i think is the target.


Earth calling Matt....mg/L = ppm. No further calculations required mate.  



			
				bigmatt said:
			
		

> Just tried mixing up the ferts and adding half teaspoon to approx 1 litre of water in a clear bowl.  Didn't get any visible precipitate!  am i being slightly naive in expecting any precipitate to be visible?


Are you saying that you added KH2PO4 + Trace mix and got no precipitate? Leave it a few days and see what happens.

Cheers,


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## bigmatt (4 Jun 2010)

Brilliant.  I'm a genius, aren't i!  So i should be adding some epsom salts to the mix.  I'll research the numbers as to how much ...unless someone could let me know how much i'd have to add to get around the 10ppm mark.... 

As far as the precipitate goes, i mixed up a 4:1:1 fert mix as per my original post and added half a teaspoon of it to the clean water - thought i'd nuke with comparitively high conc/low volume to see what happened.  I'm away for a couple of days so i'll try it again and see whats happened when we get back. I'm thinking that either the Iron phosphate simply does not have chance to form in these concentrations (Fe+ not encountering PO4- in sufficient quantities to combine) or the precipitate forms tiny crystals that aren't visible to the naked eye, which is why a spectrometer analysis would be lovely (he hinted!)
The other way i could see how this goes is to move over to adding the dry mix into my tank and look for signs of iron or phosphate insufficiency - what would i be looking for and how quickly would this develop?
THanks as always for everyone's input,
Matt


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## ceg4048 (5 Jun 2010)

Hey Matt,
        Really, I wouldn't worry too much about adding more MgSO4. It sounds like you've got plenty on tap and it would be less complications and one less thing to buy in simply deleting it. It's only necessary to add more if you suspect that there is a deficiency. In fact, I would only suggest that you add, say, a teaspoon or so after water change. Stop chasing ppm. Mg is a micronutrient. It just has to be present. It's only if it's NOT present, then you have a serious problem.

EI was not meant to be a chemical ball & chain. It's based on simplicity and on a profound observation that you just have to avoid starvation, and that the more you feed the faster things will grow.

It's our manic pursuit of  numbers that turn others away because they see this ppm megalomania and they think; "Oh my God, it's just easier to get a bottle of this or a bottle of that from the shop."

It's a similar story with your mix. AS you propose, try dosing according to your proposal and see if there is a problem with either PO4  or Fe shortfall. I reckon three weeks, typically. This will become obvious. New leaves would be pale/yellow for Fe shortage with GSA and perhaps slowed growth rates for PO4 shortage. Continue to dose your mix until you have a problem. The fact that you are aware of the risk means that you will be more observant and will learn more. You'll pay more attention to the plants - checking to see if they are in trouble. If you see trouble then halt the procedure and return to the standard procedure of alternate day dosing. Check for improvements. Then, repeat the experiment and see if the results are repeatable.

I can honestly tell you that I have absolutely no idea what the ppm in my tanks have been. It's ironic that I probably have a better idea of the numbers than the folks using test kits. I have done the calculations just to be able to say; "Yes there is at least X ppm dosed and these are my results." The only reason I care to know that much is so that I can refute wayward claims that X ppm of this/that causes algae or kills fish or causes hangnails, or whatever. If it wasn't for the cacophony of nutrient haters all bellyaching about NO3/PO4 I wouldn't bother even doing the calculations...

Cheers,


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## bigmatt (6 Jun 2010)

Glad you think that's a sensible route to go down.  You taught me a lot abour nutrients when I had a BGA outbreak and it's really helped me to not be scared of nutrients!  As an example of this i upped my TPN+ dosage from 1ml/day to 5ml/day and guess what?  Plants grew a lot better and livestock didn't care!  Since my EI ferts arrived i've actually upped that to 10ml/day just to see what the impact is, and livestock still don't care!
Is there a table of nutrient deficiencies and there indicators anywhere?  If not that'd be a REALLY handy addition to the EI tutorial - i think a lot of the nervousness about the Estimative part is that people aren't really sure of what they're looking for in terms of deficiencies.
Thanks again,
Matt


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## CeeJay (6 Jun 2010)

Hi bigmatt


			
				bigmatt said:
			
		

> Is there a table of nutrient deficiencies and there indicators anywhere?


Check out this link James C's Plant Deficiency list.
Well useful.


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## bigmatt (7 Jun 2010)

Ah!  That'll be it!
I wondered what these round things in the front of my face are for.  and the squidgy grey bit behind them.
Cheers Ceejay!
Matt


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## PM (23 Jul 2010)

Hi, just want to check, I am dosing KNO3, K2PO4, and Aqua Essentials trace mix, that's all I need right? Or is there more?

Thanks,
Paul.

EDIT: Using 100% London tap water.


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## ceg4048 (23 Jul 2010)

Hi Paul,
       That's all mate, you only need something more if the plants are telling you that you need more. If colours are normal, growth undistorted and good size, then there ought not to be anything else. There is always the possibility of a Mg shortage since we don't normally know what level it's at in the tap. If you want to be sure just dose a teaspoon a week of Epsom Salts (MgSO4) for three weeks and see if there is a difference. If not then don't bother any more.

Cheers,


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## PM (23 Jul 2010)

Cool thanks, will try that as I have a small algae issue.

Cheers


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## ceg4048 (23 Jul 2010)

Well Epsom Salts will not likely solve an algae issue. You need to identify exactly the type of algae, and that will tell you what you are not providing enough of.

Cheers,


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## PM (23 Jul 2010)

Okay, I'll try get a pic if it grows back this week,

Cheers


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