# Fish swimming eradic with disturbed substrate (EI)



## Gilles (25 Nov 2014)

lately I have lost a lot of amano shrimps. After talking to Chris Lukhaup (who i know personally) on a fair last weekend he told me that the Amano shrimps could suffer from a bacteria, especially since other fish didn't seem to be affected.

So yesterday i decided to uproot some plants while doing a water change. All of a sudden, most of my fish started swimming eradic (upside down, lying flat, shooting to the water surface) with no obvious reason. My filter was OFF during the uprooting to prevent dust going throughout my entire tank. I had not started filling the tank yet i was only draining it while uprooting plants at thesame time (to achieve that most of the dust would go to the toilet and not land on my plants)

After filling my tank all returned to normal but it is not sitting right with me. Dying shrimps (especially amano shrimps) mean there is something wrong since they are hard ass 

Here are some details;
I do get some BGA on the substrate like i posted before on this forum. As an advice i then doubled my nitrate dosing but still i get some BGA once every while. So i'm dosing recommended EI but with double the Nitrates, My substrate is half year old akadama without any additives. My drop checker is yellow througout the day and my fish are fine with that. They are all swimming like they should.

Filter is a Fluval FX6, which is cleaned (rinsed) every 3-6 months; with a spraybar across the entire length of the tank facing forward and with enough holes in a diameter that matches the outflow capacity of the filter. I see all my plants slowly waving (also my foreground plants) which made me to assume i have enough flow.

Normally my fish are NOT swimming eradic, they are all fine, so i do NOT suspect CO2. I suspect the substrate that it contains certain byproducts that are harmfull for fish. Thinking about ammonium, ammonia, nitrite (haven't tested this).. What is your take on this? Since i did a large WC yesterday chances are that the harmfull concentrations are gone by now or are at least severly diffused...

Any tips are welcome...


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## Edvet (25 Nov 2014)

Indeed sounds like a nitrite problem, how are they now?


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## kirk (25 Nov 2014)

I was thinking same as Edvet, but also more hovering and a more often filter clean, I never leave our filter for more than 6 weeks without a clean nowadays. Oh and I'm sorry to hear of the problems and losses.


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## Gilles (25 Nov 2014)

@Edvet they immediately recovered when the tank was full of fresh water. It ONLY happened when uprooting plants. However Nitrite should not be possible in a cycled tank, right? Is Nitrite also causing BGA?


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## Edvet (25 Nov 2014)

There must be some source of it in the tanksubstrate, which escaped when messing with the plants. How and when exactly i don't know, but "the proof is in the pudding"as they say. The fish showed it and recoverd from a waterchange. That's the proof i need.
I don't like those substrates though i know a lot of people swear by them. Old skool river sand is what i always have and will use.


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## roadmaster (25 Nov 2014)

Ammonia release from substrate would be my guess.
Large water change with dechlorinator quickly neutralized it.?


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## GHNelson (25 Nov 2014)

roadmaster said:


> Ammonia release from substrate would be my guess.
> Large water change with dechlorinator quickly neutralized it.?


I second that diagnosis....add some dechlorinator if your uprooting plants that might help!


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## Gilles (25 Nov 2014)

Ok, one step further.. today i measured my PO4/NO3 levels, just to rule that out (since i had BGA and i got that in the past by having excessive nitrates). Turns out; PO4: 1, NO3: >100mg/l
Ok so that explains why my shrimp are dying and why i have BGA. I think.. So i did another WC today and without uprooting my plants my fish started to act strange AGAIN... Well i just did an 80% wc and although i know it is not beneficial for my bacteria i will stop dosing EI this week and see where it leads me to by the EOW.


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## ceg4048 (25 Nov 2014)

Gilles said:


> Ok so that explains why my shrimp are dying


No it doesn't. NO3 is not toxic. For heaven's sake, is the substrate where all the waste from fish and food falls? That's where ammonia and nitrite live exactly in the same way as in your filter.

Fish are swimming around in their own toilet. Clean your substrate if you're having so many issues. Folks have been dosing EI for a decade or more and have zero issues with toxicity. Test kits cannot tell you the truth.

Cheers,


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## Edvet (25 Nov 2014)

What's your pH?


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## Gilles (26 Nov 2014)

It was 6.5 but that doesn't say you anything special  it's now 6.7..


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## Edvet (26 Nov 2014)

at pH<7 some of the toxicity of nitrite/ammoniak is less.


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## Gilles (26 Nov 2014)

I thought you where aiming for that


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## dagtveit (2 Dec 2014)

Isnt there a gas that can get released from the substrate. Which is highly toxic


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## ajm83 (2 Dec 2014)

dagtveit said:


> Isnt there a gas that can get released from the substrate. Which is highly toxic



Hydrogen sulfide, smells of rotten eggs.


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## roadmaster (11 Dec 2014)

ajm83 said:


> Hydrogen sulfide, smells of rotten eggs.



 Not likely to happen with fair amount of rooted plant's which can transport oxygen to their root's.
Hydrogen sulfide petty much harmless once it makes contact with O2 in the water.


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