# The Nymph's Spring (EA900)



## shangman

Something extremely fabulous happened yesterday, I picked up my new tank!  It’s my birthday today,  and as I can't celebrate the usual way (really missing the pub right now), I thought I'd start its journal  

I’ve been looking for something bigger but reasonably priced for a while, I mentioned it to my dad who used his ebay magic to find me a second hand EA Aquascaper 900 tank with a stand and Twinstar light for a song! I’m absolutely over the moon, as I know they’re discontinuing these tanks and the dimensions and quality are great, I managed to miss it completely when searching myself. It really feels like the perfect size - big but not too big, with that amazing depth for the fish and the scaping possibilities - perfect for Goldilocks here.

This is tank number 4, picked up in my 9th month of aquaria-keeping, I absolutely love this hobby (and I love UKAPS too, it makes it even better to be able to discuss things with you guys, I learn so much here). In real life I'm a fashion designer who is always inspired by nature and myth, so I thought I'd choose a title that went along with that! I feel like all of us aquascapers are like Nymphs and Naiads, looking happily upon our small slices of nature and doing all we can to protect them and help them thrive, with our filters making our tanks not unlike small magical springs.

Anyway... there's shedloads to consider and I don’t think I’ll be fully setting it up for another 2 months or so, so I can learn a bit more and gather everything I need and wait for lockdown to end so I can visit some further away shops, but I thought I’d start the journal now so I can badger you all with questions about what I should do with it and get some advice, as well as post inspiration and fun stuff like that. The tanks in the shed for now until things start to come together! It has a few scratches, but for the price I got it for I shant complain. Here is a completely boring photo to show how it is now, I'm going to decorate the cabinet before I set everything up to be fancier too. 






My aim for the tank is to strike a nice balance between the fish and aquascape  - making my mostly South American fish as happy as possible while also making a naturalistic mini-garden with flair. I really enjoy the gardening side of keeping a planted tank - both my parents are professional gardeners (they even met while studying at Kew Gardens many years ago), but I’ve not done that much gardening since I was a kid, so I’m pleased that I seem to be a chip off the old block when it comes to aquascaping. I think I will try CO2 for the first time with this tank, so I can really try out the fancyfancy side of the hobby 

Below are some photos of my 3 other tanks, I’ve learnt so much from each of them! 

This is my first, a 60L lowtech rainwater tank with apistos <see my thread about them breeding here>, otos and kuhli loaches. I think the new tank will have a similar vibe to this, but more structured. The blue background is just my walls so will be the same in the new tank, as this one will be moved.





This is my second tank, a 45L lowtech rainwater tank which I co-own with my dad - it’s technically his tank but I do the maintenance, water changes, feed the fish, etc. He chose the plants and scaped it with my suggestions, so I don't change much. It has pygmy corys, sparkling gouramis and crystal red shrimp. We finally did the top back riparium bit this week so excuse that for now, it still needs the fabric trimmed + terrestrial moss and to grow in a bit.





This is my latest tank, <a lowtech 23L shrimp nano tank on my desk>, which is mostly filled with mosses and a bit of buce and crypts. I learnt a lot from this one, I definitely want some moss covered wood in the new one and will do a dry start as I did with this, it makes such a nice effect. It has cherries, 2 amanos and some lovely yellow rabbit snails.





Will post about what I'm inspired by later today too 

I’ll finish by asking some important questions...

I think I want to use CO2 in this tank, now I’ll have the space with the cabinet. How does CO2 interact with rainwater, what proportions of rainwater/tapwater (I live in London so it’s quite hard) would work with CO2 & with my South American fish that like lower ph. I’m planning on turning my current main 60l tank into a breeding/quarantine blackwater tank, so this is more about health rather than breeding conditions. I ask because I know that CO2 lowers ph, and idk if I need to have some built-in buffer for that, rather than pure rainwater. I'm very new to CO2 and have mostly ignored it until now so need to catch up on the concepts.
What filter should I get? Ideally one with a heater built in. The tank is 180L. Ideally not a crazy expensive one.
What’s the deal with the aquasoil method vs garden soil with sand on top? Is it that much better to use the expensive aquasoil? All the fancy aquascapes seem to use it but I don’t quite get what the benefits are compared to the higher  costs. Do dwarf cichlids and corydoras like the aquasoil? I want to use substrates which they can sift happily.


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## aec34

Happy birthday! I am also looking forward to a lockdown (big) birthday, and might ask for a tank big enough for fish...
 I’m running some v small tanks with homemade soil/sand which are going fine, so looking forward to the advice you get, and what you do 🙂


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## Conort2

shangman said:


> I think I want to use CO2 in this tank, now I’ll have the space with the cabinet. How does CO2 interact with rainwater, what proportions of rainwater/tapwater


It sounds like you’ll be going for a similar sort of fish choice of what I have. I use pure rainwater with co2. I rely on my ferts to boost my tds a bit.


shangman said:


> Do dwarf cichlids and corydoras like the aquasoil?


They’ll certainly do ok on it. It’s soft so doesn’t damage their barbels. I kept my corydoras on aquasoil previously, however if you want really natural behaviour I’d recommend sand with a base layer underneath. This will allow the corydoras and dwarf cichlids to sift the substrate properly.

The other tanks look great so looking forward to this one. It certainly doesn’t look like you’ve only been doing this 9 months!

Cheers


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## shangman

aec34 said:


> Happy birthday! I am also looking forward to a lockdown (big) birthday, and might ask for a tank big enough for fish...
> I’m running some v small tanks with homemade soil/sand which are going fine, so looking forward to the advice you get, and what you do 🙂



Thank you! A bigger tank is always so exciting, it's the perfect birthday present since it's such a creative hobby that's good for your wellbeing. 



Conort2 said:


> It sounds like you’ll be going for a similar sort of fish choice of what I have. I use pure rainwater with co2. I rely on my ferts to boost my tds a bit.
> 
> They’ll certainly do ok on it. It’s soft so doesn’t damage their barbels. I kept my corydoras on aquasoil previously, however if you want really natural behaviour I’d recommend sand with a base layer underneath. This will allow the corydoras and dwarf cichlids to sift the substrate properly.
> 
> The other tanks look great so looking forward to this one. It certainly doesn’t look like you’ve only been doing this 9 months!
> 
> Cheers



Thank you! It's been the best part of the past 9 months I think, a perfect distraction.

Aha! So you use rainwater with CO2, and it doesn't crash the ph? That's good to know. Do you still change 50% a week? The only thing I'm worried about is that that's 90 litres of rainwater a week, which is rather a lot to haul up from the garden/allotment, up 2 flights of stairs and into the tank... and back out again. I'm interested to hear how people do waterchange son all these tanks in general tbh, it does seem like a lot of work. My 60L = 45L are ok for now but this is almost double (and I don't need to change 50% every week since they're both lowtech).

Good to know the aquasoil is ok for them, I did wonder whether I should grind it into a powder for the top layer so they could sift it better, but probably sand+soil under is the way to go.


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## Conort2

shangman said:


> it doesn't crash the ph? That's good to know. Do you still change 50% a week?


I haven’t got a clue to be fair. I have never measured PH ever. I rely on TDS to tell me what I want. The fish are from extremely acidic environments and can deal with low PH no problem. 

Yes I still change 50percent. Bit easier for me as I can just pump from the water butt either directly into the tank in the summer or into my storage bin to be heated in the winter. I have just started using RO to help me out when rain is a bit scarce. I don’t have a large amount of rainwater storage so rely on regular rain which is fine in winter but can be an issue in summer.

Cheers


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## mort

All 3 of those tanks are my kind of tank, so looking forward to you setting up this big tank.

Can I ask in your dad's tank is that lagenandra growing in the riparium section? If it is what is the misting regime if you both have one?


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## shangman

Conort2 said:


> I haven’t got a clue to be fair. I have never measured PH ever. I rely on TDS to tell me what I want. The fish are from extremely acidic environments and can deal with low PH no problem.
> 
> Yes I still change 50percent. Bit easier for me as I can just pump from the water butt either directly into the tank in the summer or into my storage bin to be heated in the winter. I have just started using RO to help me out when rain is a bit scarce. I don’t have a large amount of rainwater storage so rely on regular rain which is fine in winter but can be an issue in summer.
> 
> Cheers


Oh well fair enough! I think all the fish I like also love a very low PH, so I suppose that won't be a problem. I'm very jealous that you can pump it in the tank directly, do you have any posts about how you do that? Maybe I can get a waterbutt under my bedroom window and have some sort of line and pump thing going on. The waterchanges are the only thing that gives me pause about going CO2. I have enough water (2 butts in the garden + several down the allotment so even fine in high summer), but it's just the moving it about bit that's a bit worrysome. Might have to start just considering it my weekly heavy exercise!



mort said:


> All 3 of those tanks are my kind of tank, so looking forward to you setting up this big tank.
> 
> Can I ask in your dad's tank is that lagenandra growing in the riparium section? If it is what is the misting regime if you both have one?


Thankyou very much! Yes it is a lagenandra, and it definitely isn't misted ever lol. My dad's an old gardener who loves rare tropical plants but refuses on principle to mist. He's dreaming of a posh ADA terrarium now so he could finally grow some of those plants in an automated way. 

The lagenandra's been sitting in the back in its pot unplanted for 2 months because my dad couldn't be bothered to plant up the riparium section which he thought up, it grew straight through the mesh and had long roots going down the whole tank. Because of the colour I thought it was dead for a few weeks after we put it in, but it was fine. This week I finally snapped and we planted up the back. The edges of the older leaves are a bit crispy and the colour is a bit like sludge, but it's growing rather well.


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## mort

That's my kind of misting regime, I have a terrible memory so never remember to mist anything.

It's quite annoying how good you are for someone who's only been in the hobby 9 months you do have a great aquatic touch.


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## shangman

mort said:


> That's my kind of misting regime, I have a terrible memory so never remember to mist anything.
> 
> It's quite annoying how good you are for someone who's only been in the hobby 9 months you do have a great aquatic touch.


😂 I'm pretty sure I've managed to get in double or triple time in those 9 months due to covid!

That is a lovely compliment though, thank you  Fingers crossed I can come up with something interesting now!


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## shangman

Hmm I've been thinking tonight and I'm still unsure about CO2 vs lowtech because of the water changing every week in rainwater. 

I think I need to do some research on how people actually change their tank water cos now the capacity is 3x+ I think it will be harder than I really thought about. I mostly thought about setting the tank up in the first month, where 'd do the very frequent water changes with all tap to make it easier, then transition to rain 2 or 3 times before getting the fish in there. And since the fish weren't in there I could add the dechlorinator while it's being added and it would be fine.

At the moment I fill 1 20L carton 2x a week (40L total), my 60L getting a 20-30L change and my 45L getting a 10-20 change depending on which I feel needs more, usually my 60L as it's more heavily stocked. I would have to keep up with these (though maybe with moving around stocking so the pressure is less I could change them less), I would still need to collect at least 1 20L a week for them both minimum, and also 90L extra for the new tank.

That new 90L is basically 5 20L cartons a week extra, and they'd be needed at the same time. ATM 1 is ok because I can fit it in my bathroom, and just refill, but I can't really keep 4 inside (during the winter). Also they are rather heavy, I'm a bit worried about lugging it all up the stairs, and then getting it down again safely with minimal spills every week and having it not take more than 1 hour. Could I do a 25% twice a week?  Then I guess I could have 3x cartons refilled twice a week, once at home and once at the allotment could work.  Maybe that could ease me in, and maybe also adding 20-50% tap would help, I don't want to badly affect the fish though. 

If you have a 180L tank, do you change the actual 90L, or do you change a smaller amount calculating for hardscape and substrate?

What a pickle! How do you guys make your waterchanges easier? We live in a maisonette where our part of the garden isn't attached to the house, and the tank is on the second floor, so it makes things a bit more complicated.


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## Sammy Islam

Python water change system just makes life easy but obviously wastes a lot of water, which goes against sustainable water changes. I connect mine to the kitchen tap and i can do 80% water changes while "hoovering" in about 15min. The only thing i ever have to lug about is the filter when it needs cleaning, that's hard enough, theres no way i could do it with buckets and i'm young 🤣


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## alto

Sammy Islam said:


> Python water change system just makes life easy but obviously wastes a lot of water,


The only water I waste water using my Python system is while balancing the water temperature - though that’s actually just water straight out of the tap and not sure how that would be any different with any refill system (perhaps the Python is even more efficient at this stage as filling individual buckets would require more temperature balancing - assuming the tap is turned off between each bucket fill)

When syphoning water from tank via the running tap water, the ratio is 7parts tank to 1 part tap, so that seems fairly efficient
Of course I just start the syphon at the tank as I would with any other gravel cleaning tube, and then gravity drain to garden or toilet
Cautionary Note:

if you happen to syphon up livestock, and don’t notice immediately, having the drain set in a tub outside improves recovery chances (and a bit nicer for the fish than being scooped off the grass ... OK it was only one fish, once)
if you drain to (very clean!) toilet a nice big net can improve recovery
Of course if certain fish were not extraordinarily determined (obsessed!) with *sneakily* swimming UP the syphon at every opportunity, this CN would not be required

Not that any of this helps with transport of rain water UP two flights of stairs

ETA actually I do waste some water for the Python system as I always give the hose a finally rinse with hot water - makes it nice and flexible to recoil
I’ll also rinse the parts between tanks 
But is this “waste” or just good sense .....


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## mort

Do you have enough capacity to store and collect enough rainwater for it to be a prominent part of your wc routine? In the summer I really struggle to get enough water and I'm quite lax on wc tbh. 
So I either have to use my ro water (pump waste straight into the empty water butts for use on the garden) or cut the water with more tap. I have south american soft water species and they don't mind the slight change in chemistry.


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## shangman

Sammy Islam said:


> Python water change system just makes life easy but obviously wastes a lot of water, which goes against sustainable water changes. I connect mine to the kitchen tap and i can do 80% water changes while "hoovering" in about 15min. The only thing i ever have to lug about is the filter when it needs cleaning, that's hard enough, theres no way i could do it with buckets and i'm young 🤣





alto said:


> The only water I waste water using my Python system is while balancing the water temperature - though that’s actually just water straight out of the tap and not sure how that would be any different with any refill system (perhaps the Python is even more efficient at this stage as filling individual buckets would require more temperature balancing - assuming the tap is turned off between each bucket fill)
> 
> When syphoning water from tank via the running tap water, the ratio is 7parts tank to 1 part tap, so that seems fairly efficient
> Of course I just start the syphon at the tank as I would with any other gravel cleaning tube, and then gravity drain to garden or toilet
> Cautionary Note:
> 
> if you happen to syphon up livestock, and don’t notice immediately, having the drain set in a tub outside improves recovery chances (and a bit nicer for the fish than being scooped off the grass ... OK it was only one fish, once)
> if you drain to (very clean!) toilet a nice big net can improve recovery
> Of course if certain fish were not extraordinarily determined (obsessed!) with *sneakily* swimming UP the syphon at every opportunity, this CN would not be required
> 
> Not that any of this helps with transport of rain water UP two flights of stairs
> 
> ETA actually I do waste some water for the Python system as I always give the hose a finally rinse with hot water - makes it nice and flexible to recoil
> I’ll also rinse the parts between tanks
> But is this “waste” or just good sense .....



Thank you for all of these replies and info, it's super super helpful! I'm definitely going to get a Python water changer, at the very least for taking the water out every week. I think I can keep a good amount of it in the summer for watering the windowboxes, currently my 60L water is all the houseplants needs so it's not as wasteful. In an ideal world outside my window I could have a hose and a waterbutt to store the waste water for plants in the garden, but the downstairs neighbours are old and strange so probably would be weird about it sadly.

The fish getting sucked up is a bit scary! I think I'll set it up to drain in the sink with a dedicated seive in an overflowing bucket or something so if any fish do get sucke dup they're ok. I was thinking that I'd take out 1 bucket a week first to get all the mulm and stuff on the sand which if I do ever suck up fish or shrimp is where they get got, then the rest can just be pure water change from the top in an area of the tank without too many floating plants.



mort said:


> Do you have enough capacity to store and collect enough rainwater for it to be a prominent part of your wc routine? In the summer I really struggle to get enough water and I'm quite lax on wc tbh.
> So I either have to use my ro water (pump waste straight into the empty water butts for use on the garden) or cut the water with more tap. I have south american soft water species and they don't mind the slight change in chemistry.



I think I can store enough rainwater, I have 1 waterbutt at home and 5 at the allotment, and I'm going to upgrade the one at home and maybe add another onto our shed, this summer there was still enough water, even though I drained 2 at the allotment for the pond there. Do you get a bit lax on a CO2 tank? Good to hear that your fish don't mind, I think cutting with tap at least a bit is the way to go, and once te tank is established I can think about trying to get more rainwater for the more fancy species like Dicrossus (which I would v much like, but not if I can't look after them with the water properly). What % of tap do you cut your rainwater/RO with?


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## Sammy Islam

alto said:


> The only water I waste water using my Python system is while balancing the water temperature - though that’s actually just water straight out of the tap and not sure how that would be any different with any refill system (perhaps the Python is even more efficient at this stage as filling individual buckets would require more temperature balancing - assuming the tap is turned off between each bucket fill)
> 
> When syphoning water from tank via the running tap water, the ratio is 7parts tank to 1 part tap, so that seems fairly efficient
> Of course I just start the syphon at the tank as I would with any other gravel cleaning tube, and then gravity drain to garden or toilet
> Cautionary Note:
> 
> if you happen to syphon up livestock, and don’t notice immediately, having the drain set in a tub outside improves recovery chances (and a bit nicer for the fish than being scooped off the grass ... OK it was only one fish, once)
> if you drain to (very clean!) toilet a nice big net can improve recovery
> Of course if certain fish were not extraordinarily determined (obsessed!) with *sneakily* swimming UP the syphon at every opportunity, this CN would not be required
> 
> Not that any of this helps with transport of rain water UP two flights of stairs
> 
> ETA actually I do waste some water for the Python system as I always give the hose a finally rinse with hot water - makes it nice and flexible to recoil
> I’ll also rinse the parts between tanks
> But is this “waste” or just good sense .....



Good to know that i'm not wasting loads of water, i thought it would have been more. Does it matter how "open" the tap is? Or is it always 7 to 1 regardless?



shangman said:


> Thank you for all of these replies and info, it's super super helpful! I'm definitely going to get a Python water changer, at the very least for taking the water out every week. I think I can keep a good amount of it in the summer for watering the windowboxes, currently my 60L water is all the houseplants needs so it's not as wasteful. In an ideal world outside my window I could have a hose and a waterbutt to store the waste water for plants in the garden, but the downstairs neighbours are old and strange so probably would be weird about it sadly.
> 
> The fish getting sucked up is a bit scary! I think I'll set it up to drain in the sink with a dedicated seive in an overflowing bucket or something so if any fish do get sucke dup they're ok. I was thinking that I'd take out 1 bucket a week first to get all the mulm and stuff on the sand which if I do ever suck up fish or shrimp is where they get got, then the rest can just be pure water change from the top in an area of the tank without too many floating plants.
> 
> 
> 
> I think I can store enough rainwater, I have 1 waterbutt at home and 5 at the allotment, and I'm going to upgrade the one at home and maybe add another onto our shed, this summer there was still enough water, even though I drained 2 at the allotment for the pond there. Do you get a bit lax on a CO2 tank? Good to hear that your fish don't mind, I think cutting with tap at least a bit is the way to go, and once te tank is established I can think about trying to get more rainwater for the more fancy species like Dicrossus (which I would v much like, but not if I can't look after them with the water properly). What % of tap do you cut your rainwater/RO with?



I haven't sucked up any fish so far, any fish that have entered the inlet thing quickly swim back out. But i have found a way to guard against that, i insert one of the plastic plant pots that aquarium plants come in to stop fish from being sucked up if they decide they want to swim into it. Also depending on where you want to connect the python you may need to purchase the brass adaptor.


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## ScareCrow

I don't think that you really need to worry too much about pH crash that is often talked about. There are a few threads on here but I think the links below are the best at explaining the reasons. When setting up the amount of CO2 to dose, generating a pH profile is a good idea. That way as long as your regulator delivers a consistent amount throughout your dosing period, the change due to pH should only be around 1pH.
PH drop?
Will c02 kill fish due to ph changes?

With regard to your water situation, if you are intending to add CO2 to this tank, I'd focus more on changing the water on that to keep parameters consistent than on your non CO2 tanks. I'd gradually ease off the water changes on the other tanks, until you're down to 25% on each per week and even then I'd be tempted to cut that 50:50 rainwater and tap. As long as you do it gradually the fish won't mind, long term the plants probably will show signs of the reduced CO2 availability and iron due to the harder water but you could try a siesta period with the lighting and increase dosing of iron, to make up for it. I assume you'd have more fert dosing in your CO2 tank to compensate for the increased plant growth so the conventional approach (with EI anyway) is to do a 50% water change per week.


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## Another Phil

To avoid sucking up fish I have a piece of fishing net rubber-banded to my siphon hose. Rockpool type fishing net as sold in The Range for £1-£2. aquarium nets are too fine and get blocked by mulm. Sainsbury sell reusable fine mesh bags in fruit&veg for 30p if you are just siphoning water.


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## mort

I don't run co2 on the tanks anymore because I saw no improvement by doing so. I do keep things simple and have riparian growth out of the top. In truth I don't think I need to do water changes on the tanks but it makes me feel happier and does no harm.


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## shangman

ScareCrow said:


> I don't think that you really need to worry too much about pH crash that is often talked about. There are a few threads on here but I think the links below are the best at explaining the reasons. When setting up the amount of CO2 to dose, generating a pH profile is a good idea. That way as long as your regulator delivers a consistent amount throughout your dosing period, the change due to pH should only be around 1pH.
> PH drop?
> Will c02 kill fish due to ph changes?
> 
> With regard to your water situation, if you are intending to add CO2 to this tank, I'd focus more on changing the water on that to keep parameters consistent than on your non CO2 tanks. I'd gradually ease off the water changes on the other tanks, until you're down to 25% on each per week and even then I'd be tempted to cut that 50:50 rainwater and tap. As long as you do it gradually the fish won't mind, long term the plants probably will show signs of the reduced CO2 availability and iron due to the harder water but you could try a siesta period with the lighting and increase dosing of iron, to make up for it. I assume you'd have more fert dosing in your CO2 tank to compensate for the increased plant growth so the conventional approach (with EI anyway) is to do a 50% water change per week.


Ahh that's great, the pH crash is what I was worried about - that without some hardness the CO2 could make the pH go lower by more than 1. I definitely won't add the fish for a good few weeks after adding CO2 (if I do it), so I can monitor and understand it, it's totally new territory. Thank you for those links they explained it really well... oh I just realised it was @dw1305 who explained it! Good to know that if I cna manage to get it up the stairs, then 100% or 90% rainwater would be fine with CO2.

I think your waterchange suggestions are really good, the other tnks are full of plants including floating & emergent, and with a lower fishload I think smaller changes would be fine. I'm going to test out doing the changes with the new tank so I can get used to it/do some weigh training before the mega tank begins!



Another Phil said:


> To avoid sucking up fish I have a piece of fishing net rubber-banded to my siphon hose. Rockpool type fishing net as sold in The Range for £1-£2. aquarium nets are too fine and get blocked by mulm. Sainsbury sell reusable fine mesh bags in fruit&veg for 30p if you are just siphoning water.


 Yes this is deinfitely what I'll do, makes total sense. Do youvac your substrate before you siphon most of the water? 



Sammy Islam said:


> I haven't sucked up any fish so far, any fish that have entered the inlet thing quickly swim back out. But i have found a way to guard against that, i insert one of the plastic plant pots that aquarium plants come in to stop fish from being sucked up if they decide they want to swim into it. Also depending on where you want to connect the python you may need to purchase the brass adaptor.


Will try that, I'm sure I'll have plenty of plant pots soon! Will have to investigate what kind of adaptor I need for the python, probably the most expensive option ffs 😂


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## aquascape1987

@Sammy Islam, with my python, I only use the tap siphon function to get the siphon going. I blast it for about 3 seconds max, and  then unscrew the pipe from the fitting, and place the pipe in a drain at lower level than the tank. It drains a lot quicker this way than trying to go through the green tap valve, and virtually no water wasted.

As for preventing the loss  residents, I either put my net on the tank end of the pipe or the other end in the drain. Once sucked up a Betta, and it got stuck in the green bit and killed it 😩 For some reason, fish just cannot resist getting too close 🤷🏻‍♂️


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## shangman

@alto  suggested something smart (and kinda obvious can't believe I didn't think of it before) to me in a message, that I should set this tank up first as a grow-up tank for the baby apistos, so they have a bigger space to grow into, which I think is a great idea. I just need my first filter - I think an Oase biomaster thermo 600, so can work with lowtch or hightech later.  Will set the tank up with seeded media, new+ old sand, a really big load of dried leaves, a bit of misc wood I have, maybe a few basic epiphytes and a lot of floating plants as a low tech while they grow so they can get to a good size for the shop. The babies are rapidly getting bigger now and a bit squeezed in the 60L, and motherfish would clearly prefer they left, I think it would help a lot with water quality in both tanks.

I'm going to use this as a chance to test out doing the water changes, as I think I could start with filling the tank and get used to the new regime, and see whether I can manage a 50% weekly, or 25% double weekly, small amounts daily, etc. Or I'll learn that 50% weekly will kill me, and go no CO2. @alto mentioned that the fish might benefit from a bit of extra tap water as well, so it will be mixed as we've been chatting about here, and we'll see how that goes. I think if I go no CO2 I can still achieve something really beautiful, I just wanted to try it out and get to have some beautiful colourful textured stem plants, but it would also be a great challenge to try and make something just as beautiful without CO2.

Will order my filter tonight I think!

Ps. if anyone wants a group of unsexed (ish, I might be able to make some guesses) Apistogramma Macmasteri Redmask juveniles I think there are some big enough to go as most are 2cm, with maybe 4-6 being 3cm. If interested, they'd have to be picked up from South London I don't think I can ship. Of course people can wait longer too and get them bigger lol, but they're already very cute and funny and it is a joy to see them grow, so I get it if people are interested in that. I think I will try to set up this tank this weekend, so I could sort some of the bigger ones out then if anyone was interested. No worries if not, I can always give them to the shop and do enjoy watching them grow  Will post this in my other thread too in case and merge that thread with this one.

Below are some photos, you can see that the babies are really getting bigger. Apologies that they're quite blurry, they are so fast! I also included a photo of a baby lotus plant I found yesterday which doing some trimming, perfect timing for it to grow a new plant, that's definitely going in the new tank. Not sure if you can tell, I bought some hygrophila from @Konrad Michalski for another tank, but he gave me such a big portion i added some to this tank too, and it looks great with the grasses. Definitely going to be using more of it soon, it's such a lovely plant that really reminds me of oak saplings.


















In these photos they mostly look like males, but a week ago they mostly looked like females with black eye slits and dark front fin bits, so I guess we'll see! The temp has been 26 the whole time, so should be an even mix of sexes, fingers crossed.


----------



## shangman

mort said:


> I don't run co2 on the tanks anymore because I saw no improvement by doing so. I do keep things simple and have riparian growth out of the top. In truth I don't think I need to do water changes on the tanks but it makes me feel happier and does no harm.


I'm very curious about the riparium plants, what sort do well for you? I love tanks with some growth out the top!


----------



## mort

shangman said:


> I'm very curious about the riparium plants, what sort do well for you? I love tanks with some growth out the top!


Depends how big you want to go really. Peace lillies are great but can get several feet high, I had a monstera deliciosa which grew six leaves over two foot across (before I had to take it out as the tanks only 120 liters, a friend has it now and I've started with a cutting), syngonium are great, so are various ficus, fittonia, calathea, basically quite a lot of plants you see in a diy shop selection. If you want really inspiration check out hyrophyte threads hydrophyte 

Or this amazing thread by hitmanx The Celestial Swamp - A voyage through a flooded forest fringe (Shallow Riparium)  he has a few other great journals as well.


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## ScareCrow

I have _Syngonium podophyllum _'White Butterfly' it grows a new leaf every couple of days and that's not an exaggeration. While it's nice to see, it does mean I've had to up my fert dosing to full EI in a low tech tank and still don't see much change in TDS at the end of the week. _Epipremnum _or pothos are a commonly used plant. I have but find its trailing habit a bit frustrating, probably my fault for not rooting it into anything though. _Tradescantia _are another common and easy plant to use for a riparium section.


----------



## Courtneybst

Would definitely take some off you as I'm only 15 minutes away but I use 100% tap water  

Also not sure how they fare with Amano shrimps? Not sure if you've ever mixed them?

They're so cute!


----------



## shangman

mort said:


> Depends how big you want to go really. Peace lillies are great but can get several feet high, I had a monstera deliciosa which grew six leaves over two foot across (before I had to take it out as the tanks only 120 liters, a friend has it now and I've started with a cutting), syngonium are great, so are various ficus, fittonia, calathea, basically quite a lot of plants you see in a diy shop selection. If you want really inspiration check out hyrophyte threads hydrophyte
> 
> Or this amazing thread by hitmanx The Celestial Swamp - A voyage through a flooded forest fringe (Shallow Riparium)  he has a few other great journals as well.


Oh wow thank you for the list, it's great that these common houseplants work! Can't wait to check out those threads tonight and see what could work here. My dad has quite a few weird rare philodendrons and monsteras, including some he doesn't care for any more so maybe I can steal one and try that. Is your light suspended quite high for them? Would love to see a photo of your monstrous monstera, it sounds glorious.



ScareCrow said:


> I have _Syngonium podophyllum _'White Butterfly' it grows a new leaf every couple of days and that's not an exaggeration. While it's nice to see, it does mean I've had to up my fert dosing to full EI in a low tech tank and still don't see much change in TDS at the end of the week. _Epipremnum _or pothos are a commonly used plant. I have but find its trailing habit a bit frustrating, probably my fault for not rooting it into anything though. _Tradescantia _are another common and easy plant to use for a riparium section.


Sounds like your syngonium loves you! I'm partly interested in the ripariums for that filtering capability, it sounds like they do a fantastic job keeping your water clean if you have to add all that extra. Does yours trail out and dangle over the sides? Maybe I need to install some trellis on the wall behind the tank...

Do you root your plants in some aqua soil, or just wedge them in a bit of wood to get started? I'm hoiing to get some wood that sticks out of the water a bit that I can base things on/around.



Courtneybst said:


> Would definitely take some off you as I'm only 15 minutes away but I use 100% tap water
> 
> Also not sure how they fare with Amano shrimps? Not sure if you've ever mixed them?
> 
> They're so cute!


I'm going to try 50% tap and 50% rain in this new tank with the babies to see how they do, apaprently some hardness isn't bad for growing baby fish. If they do fine in that, then maybe in 2 weekends you could pick some up, and if you think they don't seem happy in your water then I'll gladly take them back. 😂 If you have a big water carton or something I can give you some of my rainwater too (like 20L or something) to ease them in, in case that helps.

How big are your amanos? I have my wild type cherry shrimp in the same tank as them - they do seem to eat the tiny ones (if they can catch them which I've only seen twice), the once they get to about 1.5cm the shrimp are fine and now I have a small hidden colony in the back. They seem to have a good idea of what will and won't fit in their mouths!


----------



## ScareCrow

shangman said:


> Sounds like your syngonium loves you! I'm partly interested in the ripariums for that filtering capability, it sounds like they do a fantastic job keeping your water clean if you have to add all that extra. Does yours trail out and dangle over the sides? Maybe I need to install some trellis on the wall behind the tank...
> 
> Do you root your plants in some aqua soil, or just wedge them in a bit of wood to get started? I'm hoiing to get some wood that sticks out of the water a bit that I can base things on/around.


The roots are sat in the back of the tank and the plant sort precariously hangs over the edge. There's a pic of the riparium section in my journal. 
For the Syngonium I made a planter out of a plastic pot, a clip off an old skimmer bracket and filled it with eheim substrat pro media. I had the media lying around and it looked like expanded clay balls used in hydroponics. I imagine any open media will work, the pothos rooted into the filter sponge. As long as it allows water movement past the roots I think it will be fine. I'm also planning on attaching plants to some emergent wood. I found some pieces that I think will work well, just need to come up with a way of holding them upright and stable.


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## mort

Unfortunately the monster monstera now lives with a friend. It looked a little silly in a 60x45x45cm but he has an 11ft lit with a skylight. I growing a cutting from it so will pop some pics up when it gets going. I'm trying to control myself now and will probably shamelessly copy Iain with his ficus pumila








						Taiwan Bee not so nano
					

  Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk  Quality mate fairplay.    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



					www.ukaps.org
				




If your dad is a philodendron fan then he could probably be an eBay millionaire judging by how much they are going for at the moment. I saw a cutting of something that didn't have an id go for over 7k a few weeks ago.

Syngonium white butterfly is a nice plant, this is possibly the most impressive riparium growth you'll find on here (syngonium steals the show colour wise) taken from sciencefictions cool clown loach pond.



sciencefiction said:


> Forgot the pic of the pond itself View attachment 120856


----------



## aec34

@shangman if you need any floating plants, I am always overrun with salvinia + frogbit - happy to send you some


----------



## ScareCrow

mort said:


> If your dad is a philodendron fan then he could probably be an eBay millionaire judging by how much they are going for at the moment. I saw a cutting of something that didn't have an id go for over 7k a few weeks ago.


They really do, I recently bought a philodendron 'Prince of Orange'. It's one of the hipster varieties so normally costs a decent amount (no where near 7k though). I've been looking for about a year and managed to get one that had been really neglected so it was the same price as common philodendrons. I want to try and grow it as a riparium plant as philodendrons seem to do really well but couldn't justify spending silly money just in case it didn't work out. If it does well I may consider buying some of the more pricey varieties to add to the riparium and then take early retirement


----------



## Another Phil

> Another Phil said:
> 
> 
> To avoid sucking up fish I have a piece of fishing net rubber-banded to my siphon hose. Rockpool type fishing net as sold in The Range for £1-£2. aquarium nets are too fine and get blocked by mulm. Sainsbury sell reusable fine mesh bags in fruit&veg for 30p if you are just siphoning water.





shangman said:


> Yes this is deinfitely what I'll do, makes total sense. Do youvac your substrate before you siphon most of the water?


I've got a low point under the filter outtake made of roofing slate with some flat river rocks glued to it to keep substrate out where mulm naturally accumulates. I also have a pointed stick (the type that supports orchids) taped to my siphon hose and jutting out about 30mm that allows me to stir areas between twigs, around plants, etc. I use small 10/8mm hose as it is slow and i can easily put my finger over the bucket end if my _Corydoras pygmaeus_ get too close. Only changing 40L so works for me.

Drinking fountain/water cooler bottles might be more convenient for water storage.

Devil's Ivy _Epipremnum aureum_ is what i use as a riparian plant. the aerial roots grow rootlets in the tank and is self clinging to walls. works if you have a window it can grow towards otherwise you will have a continuous fight to keep it away from your tank light.
see also Taiwan Bee not so nano


----------



## Courtneybst

shangman said:


> I'm going to try 50% tap and 50% rain in this new tank with the babies to see how they do, apaprently some hardness isn't bad for growing baby fish. If they do fine in that, then maybe in 2 weekends you could pick some up, and if you think they don't seem happy in your water then I'll gladly take them back.  If you have a big water carton or something I can give you some of my rainwater too (like 20L or something) to ease them in, in case that helps.
> 
> How big are your amanos? I have my wild type cherry shrimp in the same tank as them - they do seem to eat the tiny ones (if they can catch them which I've only seen twice), the once they get to about 1.5cm the shrimp are fine and now I have a small hidden colony in the back. They seem to have a good idea of what will and won't fit in their mouths!



That sounds good to me! Let me know how they get on. I don't think the rainwater will be necessary as it wouldn't make a dent in my tank but appreciate the offer. 

I just got a big batch of amanos today. The smallest ones are probably the size of an adult cherry shrimp and my biggest one is about 2 inches (no exaggeration lol).


----------



## shangman

ScareCrow said:


> The roots are sat in the back of the tank and the plant sort precariously hangs over the edge. There's a pic of the riparium section in my journal.
> For the Syngonium I made a planter out of a plastic pot, a clip off an old skimmer bracket and filled it with eheim substrat pro media. I had the media lying around and it looked like expanded clay balls used in hydroponics. I imagine any open media will work, the pothos rooted into the filter sponge. As long as it allows water movement past the roots I think it will be fine. I'm also planning on attaching plants to some emergent wood. I found some pieces that I think will work well, just need to come up with a way of holding them upright and stable.


I rather like the way your plants go with the wallpaper, it looks like that's growing out of the tank too! Awesome to know about the media, when I started I accidentally bought a load extra, don't realising the filter came with it already. Looking forward to see what you do with your emergent wood plants. 



mort said:


> Unfortunately the monster monstera now lives with a friend. It looked a little silly in a 60x45x45cm but he has an 11ft lit with a skylight. I growing a cutting from it so will pop some pics up when it gets going. I'm trying to control myself now and will probably shamelessly copy Iain with his ficus pumila
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Taiwan Bee not so nano
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk  Quality mate fairplay.    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> www.ukaps.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If your dad is a philodendron fan then he could probably be an eBay millionaire judging by how much they are going for at the moment. I saw a cutting of something that didn't have an id go for over 7k a few weeks ago.
> 
> Syngonium white butterfly is a nice plant, this is possibly the most impressive riparium growth you'll find on here (syngonium steals the show colour wise) taken from sciencefictions cool clown loach pond.


I'm sure that plant loves it's new home, I'd love a big skylight for jungle-housing purposes. Was looking at <Patrick Blanc's house> a week ago and dreaming... perhaps this tank will be my own mini version with emergents up the back wall (why am I kidding I'm definitely going to do this). That ficus pumila is absolutely amaaaazzzzingggg, thanks for the link, I think I copy it too... aren't we all here to shamelessly pilfer ideas from eachother? 😆 I love that loach pond too, that along with Tom's Poco Pozo have me dreaming of an indoor pond tank one day.

It has annoyed my dad that previously relatively attainable plants have become crazt expensive now that us millenials have realised how great they are. I don't think he has any £££ ones, he usually goes for weird ones with hairy stems that get too big, but unlike you they won't be rehomed, I just put up with getting hit in the face by large leaves everytime I go down the stairs.



ScareCrow said:


> They really do, I recently bought a philodendron 'Prince of Orange'. It's one of the hipster varieties so normally costs a decent amount (no where near 7k though). I've been looking for about a year and managed to get one that had been really neglected so it was the same price as common philodendrons. I want to try and grow it as a riparium plant as philodendrons seem to do really well but couldn't justify spending silly money just in case it didn't work out. If it does well I may consider buying some of the more pricey varieties to add to the riparium and then take early retirement


Ooh that's very nice, I think that's worth the price! Good idea to try it and see, if it does well it's going to look glorious!


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## shangman

aec34 said:


> @shangman if you need any floating plants, I am always overrun with salvinia + frogbit - happy to send you some


Yes please! I had some good floaters for a while, but they recently got overrun by both spyrogira AND aphids so I had to chuck the lot. One problem's enough, 2 is too many!! 



Another Phil said:


> I've got a low point under the filter outtake made of roofing slate with some flat river rocks glued to it to keep substrate out where mulm naturally accumulates. I also have a pointed stick (the type that supports orchids) taped to my siphon hose and jutting out about 30mm that allows me to stir areas between twigs, around plants, etc. I use small 10/8mm hose as it is slow and i can easily put my finger over the bucket end if my _Corydoras pygmaeus_ get too close. Only changing 40L so works for me.
> 
> Drinking fountain/water cooler bottles might be more convenient for water storage.
> 
> Devil's Ivy _Epipremnum aureum_ is what i use as a riparian plant. the aerial roots grow rootlets in the tank and is self clinging to walls. works if you have a window it can grow towards otherwise you will have a continuous fight to keep it away from your tank light.
> see also Taiwan Bee not so nano



I use exactly the same kind of stick all the time in my tank, it's probably my most used tool 😄 So you just have a little space that collects all the mulm so you can suck it up all at once? Sounds like a great strategy

Water cooler bottles is a great idea, thank you, they might be a bit less annoying that the carton I use at the moment too, and easy to get.

Yes I'm not sure about the light, there isn't a window close to this tank so the plants would probably not like me very much. However I think the light (twinstar) is very strong, so maybe I can hang it a bit higher for them.



Courtneybst said:


> That sounds good to me! Let me know how they get on. I don't think the rainwater will be necessary as it wouldn't make a dent in my tank but appreciate the offer.
> 
> I just got a big batch of amanos today. The smallest ones are probably the size of an adult cherry shrimp and my biggest one is about 2 inches (no exaggeration lol).



Will do! I'm sure they'd love your nice new big tank  I think that cherry shrimp adult size is ok, the babies are only just that size themselves, and amanos are much fiestier than cherries. I love those massive amanos, my two are currently also about cherry-sized, can't wait for them to become behemoths among the cherries.


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## aec34

shangman said:


> behemoths


This is not a word which is used often enough 😀 
Send me a message when you’re ready for some floaters - I’ll stop putting them in the compost!


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## mort

shangman said:


> It has annoyed my dad that previously relatively attainable plants have become crazt expensive now that us millenials have realised how great they are. I don't think he has any £££ ones, he usually goes for weird ones with hairy stems that get too big, but unlike you they won't be rehomed, I just put up with getting hit in the face by large leaves everytime I go down the stairs.



Local garden centres seem to have quite a few of the species that are going for silly money, reasonably cheap. I personally hate the way everything that looks like a bird has poo'd on it is suddenly worth a fortune (not a fan of marbled variegation). I bought a monstera dubia a few years ago for a tenner and tiny unrooted cuttings are going for a ton, I don't know if this is just the world we are having to deal with at the moment or a new normal. I know some aquatic plants are vastly over priced due to popularity but I hope it doesn't effect the hobby to much.

I only really rehomed it as we both want to see how big it can get and I have cuttings from it anyway. I normally get hit in the head by my plants as I have far to many but this monster got so heavy it snapped it's support. It went from 1 palm sized leave to those 2ft across with large fenestrations in about 18 months, whilst the mother plant (one my mum has had for over 40 years) is still relatively small. Just goes to show what a little bit of fish poo can do.


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## mort

I remembered I had a picture from a long time ago. This was on its temporary tank before I took the cuttings. The leaves are considerably bigger now









						Monstera adansonii emersed?
					

Has anyone tried this?! I want to try and grow it down the side of my lily pipes to hide them?!   What ways do you guys grow “trailers” down the side of your tanks?!      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



					www.ukaps.org


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## shangman

aec34 said:


> This is not a word which is used often enough 😀
> Send me a message when you’re ready for some floaters - I’ll stop putting them in the compost!


😂 Will do, thanks! Hopefully next week if the filter comes.



mort said:


> Local garden centres seem to have quite a few of the species that are going for silly money, reasonably cheap. I personally hate the way everything that looks like a bird has poo'd on it is suddenly worth a fortune (not a fan of marbled variegation). I bought a monstera dubia a few years ago for a tenner and tiny unrooted cuttings are going for a ton, I don't know if this is just the world we are having to deal with at the moment or a new normal. I know some aquatic plants are vastly over priced due to popularity but I hope it doesn't effect the hobby to much.
> 
> I only really rehomed it as we both want to see how big it can get and I have cuttings from it anyway. I normally get hit in the head by my plants as I have far to many but this monster got so heavy it snapped it's support. It went from 1 palm sized leave to those 2ft across with large fenestrations in about 18 months, whilst the mother plant (one my mum has had for over 40 years) is still relatively small. Just goes to show what a little bit of fish poo can do.


Sometimes you find something great in Ikea too. I also am not a fan of the basic variagation, why have white when green is obviously the better colour! I feel the same way about those sad tiny anubias. RE: rare plants, I've been researching and I can only find a few rare aquatics which I find really interesting. One of them is the Echinodorus iguazu 09 which is very large with fat round leaves and dark veins, which I think is super nice, and goes for about £75 - £125 for a plantlet, and seem to be mostly tank grown which is good. Wary of rare plants that are being snatched from the wild, but there are only a few specimens left. 



mort said:


> I remembered I had a picture from a long time ago. This was on its temporary tank before I took the cuttings. The leaves are considerably bigger now
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Monstera adansonii emersed?
> 
> 
> Has anyone tried this?! I want to try and grow it down the side of my lily pipes to hide them?!   What ways do you guys grow “trailers” down the side of your tanks?!      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> www.ukaps.org


Wonderful!! That's a great plant, I wonder how you get something like that to grow in a way that means you can keep giant plants like that without it breaking out/snapping off/destroying the tank. 🤔


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## shangman

mort said:


> If you want really inspiration check out hyrophyte threads hydrophyte
> 
> Or this amazing thread by hitmanx The Celestial Swamp - A voyage through a flooded forest fringe (Shallow Riparium)  he has a few other great journals as well.


Well I spent all night yesterday looking through these threads and I'm definitely gonna have to do a riparium-style tank!! I had planned to change my 60L into a blackwater tank once the new big tank is set up, and I think having the riparium section on top of that would look GREAT, and would do some filtering for me, since there won't be any plants under water (except for maybe a lily if I can find a nice small one). I really loved looking through all the journals, I've seen riparium tanks before but never really understood how they're put together, so it was great to see all the hidden pots with suckers and floating rafts and tricks. I found a reasonably priced 60 x 40 x 40 tank, where I could use all my current equipment with to do it up, and the extra depth would be great for more planting up top. I really love all the blackwater botanicals and that tropical look. I've been collecting dried leaves, and even getting my dad to collect the dead leaves from palms and things like that in his work garden, and planning to get a nice selection from Crowder's Aquatics. I think my kuhli loaches would really love it and would come out more, and then I might move the pygmy cories and sparking gouramis I have into it too, so the 45L becomes a nice breeding tank.

I'm also really intrigued by mixing one or two tropical houseplants with plants which we usually use underwater like pogostemon eretus (fabulous flowers) and hydrocotyle small creepers. Could be very nice!!

...Wait a second, I seem to be planning another journal in this current journal... must get back to thinking about my big one. Will post some nice inspriations tonight 😂


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## mort

shangman said:


> Wonderful!! That's a great plant, I wonder how you get something like that to grow in a way that means you can keep giant plants like that without it breaking out/snapping off/destroying the tank. 🤔



Hanging it with twine definitely doesn't work, well not in my case. I'm still working out how to do it on my potential new scape but I think a moss pole, wrapped around a solid rod, for it to cling to is the safest way. I might however try it planted behind the tank in a conventional pot and train a couple of the roots into the water.
Even though with only six 2ft leaves, it was quite a small plant, it had grown over 30 long aerial roots which were 20 ft + long in some cases. I had just coiled them round like a hose but you can see why they are able to cling to trees in nature.


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## shangman

mort said:


> Hanging it with twine definitely doesn't work, well not in my case. I'm still working out how to do it on my potential new scape but I think a moss pole, wrapped around a solid rod, for it to cling to is the safest way. I might however try it planted behind the tank in a conventional pot and train a couple of the roots into the water.
> Even though with only six 2ft leaves, it was quite a small plant, it had grown over 30 long aerial roots which were 20 ft + long in some cases. I had just coiled them round like a hose but you can see why they are able to cling to trees in nature.


One of the monstera in our hallway is suspended at the top of the stairs, it has a 5 meter single root growing down, which it has now planted into the bottom-most pot we have a flor and a half down 😂 Those roots are ridiculous and great, they must grow very high up massive trees where they're from, they remind me a bit of very long finger nails.

Behind the tank you could have a tall, very narrow table and put a selection of pots, or even a windowbox planter the same width as the aquarium right behind it, and you could plant into that + place your moss pole into it for structure, with the roots hanging over. Then you could add some sucker planters on the inside of the tank and/or floating rafts to grow smaller riparium plants in it, that would hide the connection and make it look like a river's edge going out of the water and onto land, which it basically with be. Could be very nice, I would try this if I had the depth space. You could even use some tall aquarium wood as your mossy pole base so it extended the wild feeling with some of that dead but still green moss attached.


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## shangman

🌿🍀🍃 Inspiration Post 01🌿🍀🍃​
In design I always start a project with a mood board, so this is mine I suppose. Should include a photo of my current 60l tank here, see it on page one.

My walls are painted a soft blue which makes a nice natural backdrop to my tank, and I think naturally lends itself to a light, meadowy tank with lots of grasses and movement, something quite playful and summery. I'm inspired by river banks, and also that bit of the countryside where a meadow becomes a forest, so it's very grassy and soft with small delicate textures, transitioning into something darker and richer. I want to make sure my fish are happy, so there will be a nice bit of sand for my sand sifters (possibly everything will be capped with sand), some piles of dead leaves and different kinds of dense planting to make little terriorities and sight lines, and areas of light and shade. I want it to feel quite naturalistic, so I'll use a lot of moss and small grasses.

I already like the feel of my current tank, I like the mix of plants and will move them all of them into the new tank. However my current tank has no hardscaping other than 2 pebbles hidden at the back - it's all defined with plant growth, with a flat base so there isn't enough variation in height, and of course it's a third of the volume. It's been a great tank to play with and I've learnt a lot, but I'm looking forward to changing it. In this new tank, I'm gonna try out doing hardscape the way that fancy aquascapers do it, separating the soil and the sand with hidden rock walls and dramatic wood. I think the wood is really key, it has to be great and I'll spend some time finding the right pieces. I also think a dry start is important, so I can get that luscious moss look on the wood and rocks, and give it that natural feel. The depth of the tank (50cm) means there's a lot to play with.

I want the wood to have a darker, richer feel, like the beginning of the forest, so I'll use a of mix java ferns, mosses, a few buces and some hygrophila pinnatifida as it looks like oak saplings (I've only just got this plant and I'm not sure how it does in lowtech so we'll see). The below tank has a nice feel of woodland-meadow-y ness to it. With some dead leaves, even better.



Also really like this

​

I bought this tank thinking it would be high tech, but now I'm not so sure. The big reason I wanted to try CO2 is the colour - in my real job I'm known for being a colour obsessive, I love bold colours and mixing them, and the outrageous reds and blushes and oranges you can get with the CO2 stems is so beautiful. Here is my favourite hightech tank - I really like the use of wood in this, the landscape of it flows nicely with a good amount of dense planting vs open space and a bit coming out of the top, and probably what I will base mine on, I like the arch too. And of course, that red and the orange details are stunning, and the richness and variation of the greens and textures is fantastic. I really like the mix of mosses and grasses as a filler, with little buces and the creeping tripartita. I know I can't get something as thick and beautifully coloured as this without CO2, but I'm hoping I can take some elements to enhance mine.

Personally I like tanks where the back 2 corners are covered, rather than island-style designs. I want it to feel like a special hidden oasis, and I think the fish like the comfort of being enclosed. I'll have a sandy area in the front, going into the back in a similar way this one does (but bigger). I'd like to make the sandy area a bit interesting with wood embedded in it and somelittle detail plants, a bit like daveaqua05 does on Instagram (see further down).

 



This video shows how the scaper made his tank which is really useful.



I also love this youtube video, the mix of stems is so beautiful it's like a floral bouquet.

​
Ok one more I love, from daveaqua05 on Instagram, his scapes are really nice, with quite different hardscape which I really like, often the wood appears buried in the sand. The colours he gets from his stems remind me of coral reefs, they're so interesting.

​
I think I'm going to start lowtech as I'm not sure if I can keep up with the 50% waterchanges yet, I want to wait and see and try it out first, while growing out my baby apistos. If I was doing 100% tap it would be easy, but all my favourite fish are soft water, and living in London my tap is hard af, I think that the fish must come first. I've not done badly at all with my lowtechs, I have luscious growth in all of them and can grow a few extra plants because of the soft water. So I think that's what my first challenge will be - can I make something that has some of the granduer of a hightech, in a lowtech? I'm hoping I can!

If later on I think I can manage the regular water changes with rainwater, then I can upgrade to CO2 with the same scape easily and add stems.

🌿🍀🍃🌿🍀🍃🌿🍀🍃






I'm hoping to add a few stems which don't mind me, and some which I can attach to a high-up point at the back of the wood to have a small emergent section. I love the emergent part of the ADA scape above with the emergent echinodorus (which I have tried in another tank and works well) and the stems encouraged to grow out. It wouldn't be the focus of the scape as here, but hopefully a nice little area poking out adding some interest.

That's it for now, I'll share more inspo as time goes on and my ideas of what I'm doing inevitably change!


----------



## Conort2

I think you may be ok with some colour without co2. Ludwigia sp red would be a good one to try and can be lipstick red with decent lighting. If not there are enough cryptocoryne and echinodorus that should give you the colour you want. Granted the colours aren't as bold as some of the stems in the scapes you’ve shown but should help give the colour you crave. 

It’s always worth giving a pot of whatever you like a go as you may be lucky and get it to grow in your setup, you don’t know until you try! 

Cheers


----------



## shangman

Conort2 said:


> I think you may be ok with some colour without co2. Ludwigia sp red would be a good one to try and can be lipstick red with decent lighting. If not there are enough cryptocoryne and echinodorus that should give you the colour you want. Granted the colours aren't as bold as some of the stems in the scapes you’ve shown but should help give the colour you crave.
> 
> It’s always worth giving a pot of whatever you like a go as you may be lucky and get it to grow in your setup, you don’t know until you try!
> 
> Cheers


Yes I'll definitely be using all the red and orange species I can which don't need CO2, I already keep a red ludwigia and a red/purple lotus which are great. I have an echinodorus rose and red diamond which promised me red and does provide with each new leaf, but when it fades the leaves go a disappointing olive colour, do you have any suggestions for other great red echinodorus? I don't mind the outer leaves changing colour, but would prefer they fade to something a bit richer - my echinodorus hadi red pearl has a rich red on the new leaves, but it fades to a dark rich green which is great, they aren't very big plants though. 

Definitely will give more plants a go, previously I tried rotala wallichii which looks so amazing in photos, but sadly it was not interested in growing wider than 1cm, nor taller than 10cm. I have some rotala hra which just about grows well enough to stay, and my hydrocotyle verticillata grows great. I might do some more research into plants that love soft water, they might be a bit more forgiving. I'd love to keep a few stems of ludwigia glandulosa if I can try, what a lovely plant.

Something I do right now is to layer plants to get better depth and colour and make it seem like they're more luscious, so even though I'm not a big fan of something like Alternanthera, it does have a great colour and apparently should be ok with no co2 (but with ferts and good lighting) so that could go at the back with some prettier stems like the rotala hra or ludiwigia ar red in front.

----


My filter came this morning and it is MASSIVE, wow! It's a good 4x the size of my current filter, very glad I got it and a bit afraid of any noise it'll have. I'm planning on setting everything up this weekend for the baby fish, but might need to delay if the filter is very loud and I need to do a lot of soundproofing, our tank is in our bedroom so have to be mindful of that. I've got a bit of play sand for the babies which I'll be washing today, and soaking the random bits of wood and twigs I have to create a little bit of variety so it doesn't look completely boring.

I'm planning on setting up the tank on Saturday with sand + tap water + water from a 50% wc in my 60L, 40L & 23L (which has lots of tiny bugs in it I think they'd like to eat), will seed the filter with 50% media from the 60L tank. Will also add some sand and rocks from my current tank, and some leaves, as well as lots of new dead leaves to create a more interesting habitat. Then will do a 50% wc on Sunday with rainwater so it ends up being 50/50, and will then add the baby fish. Does this sound like a solid plan? Will they be ok if I do frequent small water changes? Usually I would do the 6 week wait thing, but this tank has no soil and the babies are there just to grow out. Technically they are about 50% of the bioload of the current tank, but that also has a lot of plants. I will also get some extra floating plants, so ideally almost all the surface is covered to help, I might be able to just pull out some extra vallis and crypts and just plant them in some sand for now as well.


----------



## Courtneybst

Which filter did you go for in the end?


----------



## shangman

Courtneybst said:


> Which filter did you go for in the end?


The Oase BioMaster Thermo 600, just looked at a lot of journals here and saw that many people had them, the prefilter and built-in heater look good.


----------



## shangman

Watching this right now and wondering if I should do what he suggests which all sounds quite logical and reasonable. I do have my own ceramic media to replace with at least.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


shangman said:


> what he suggests which all sounds quite logical and reasonable.


Ah the <"PondGuru">,  he gets a <"few mentions on the forum">. I'll copy in @MirandaB as I know <"she is a fan of his">.

Personally I think his advice is a mixture of <"the good">, <"the bad"> and <"the downright ugly">. 

He has a <"product to sell">, it is different for us, we don't <"have anything to sell"> so we can recommend products (or not) based on our experience and thoughts. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## MirandaB

Thanks @dw1305,my blood pressure is high enough at the moment after an appalling fish delivery


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


MirandaB said:


> Thanks @dw1305,my blood pressure is high enough at the moment


As soon as I saw the video I thought of you.

cheers Darrel


----------



## shangman

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Ah the <"PondGuru">,  he gets a <"few mentions on the forum">. I'll copy in @MirandaB as I know <"she is a fan of his">.
> 
> Personally I think his advice is a mixture of <"the good">, <"the bad"> and <"the downright ugly">.
> 
> He has a <"product to sell">, it is different for us, we don't <"have anything to sell"> so we can recommend products (or not) based on our experience and thoughts.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Thanks for this, just gone down a UKAPS rabbithole once again reading these these threads and being led into more! I thought the layering of the sponges sounded good, but looks like I will just replace the given plastic media with a bag of eheim media I have left over and that's it for now. Wondering if the main filter needs a lot of sponges, or if I might remove them for extra flow. You're so good at returning me to the righteous path of fishkeeping @dw1305! 😅


----------



## ScareCrow

I've not read the links but what I've seen in some of his videos is that he likes a few stages of mechanical filtration and then crams in as much biological media as he possibly can. My take on this (and from what has been said here it seems similar) is that this will massively impair flow through the filter making it less efficient at both mechanical and biological filtration. Knowing what we do about the water filtering capabilities of plants and archaea, for me biological filtration isn't as much of a concern especially if you have emergent growth. Personally I tend to use filters more for their mechanical filtration than their biological capabilities but if you were going to utilise them for biological filtration, I'd put a medium to coarse sponge on the intake strainer in the tank and then have biological media in your trays. This should give you some mechanical filtration to avoid your biological media becoming clogged up quickly and while it will reduce flow, your biological media will remain cleaner for longer. You can easily access the sponge on the filter strainer to clean it regularly, rather than having to open the canister filter to clean the mechanical sponges to maintain flow.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


shangman said:


> replace the given plastic media with a bag of eheim media I have left over and that's it for now. Wondering if the main filter needs a lot of sponges, or if I might remove them for extra flow


I think @Wookii was after the plastic media? 

If people don't have an alternative, I actually quite like the Kaldnes K1 type <"floating cell media"> and I wouldn't have any reservations about using it.


shangman said:


> Wondering if the main filter needs a lot of sponges,


Same as @ScareCrow for me, if you have your sponges in the pre-filter you probably don't need any in the filter body. We have a <"few threads about these"> where people have drilled more holes in the intake and swapped the pre-filter ones for a coarser grade of sponge.


ScareCrow said:


> then crams in as much biological media as he possibly can


Is that the very expensive premium grade media he sells, I wonder?

cheers Darrel


----------



## Sammy Islam

shangman said:


> Thanks for this, just gone down a UKAPS rabbithole once again reading these these threads and being led into more! I thought the layering of the sponges sounded good, but looks like I will just replace the given plastic media with a bag of eheim media I have left over and that's it for now. Wondering if the main filter needs a lot of sponges, or if I might remove them for extra flow. You're so good at returning me to the righteous path of fishkeeping @dw1305! 😅



The only thing i did from that video is drill extra holes in the prefilter tube, no idea if it improved things as i did it before i started using it, but i imgine it would help a little.

I have a blue sponge in the bottom tray, then a couple of baskets with a little bit of seachem matrix and fluval ceramic rings, each tray is about 1/4 full. Then the top basket is the orange (finer) foam, flow is decent.


----------



## ScareCrow

dw1305 said:


> Is that the very expensive premium grade media he sells, I wonder?


Yeah, essentially Gucci alfagrog.

If you're really sad (like me) you can line all the media up so that it restricts flow as little as possible. It's two layers of what I think is Fluval ceramic media. The most concerning part is that this wasn't done to while away a few hours of lockdown, I did this years ago.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


ScareCrow said:


> Gucci alfagrog


Right up there with <"pump in a bucket">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## shangman

ScareCrow said:


> I've not read the links but what I've seen in some of his videos is that he likes a few stages of mechanical filtration and then crams in as much biological media as he possibly can. My take on this (and from what has been said here it seems similar) is that this will massively impair flow through the filter making it less efficient at both mechanical and biological filtration. Knowing what we do about the water filtering capabilities of plants and archaea, for me biological filtration isn't as much of a concern especially if you have emergent growth. Personally I tend to use filters more for their mechanical filtration than their biological capabilities but if you were going to utilise them for biological filtration, I'd put a medium to coarse sponge on the intake strainer in the tank and then have biological media in your trays. This should give you some mechanical filtration to avoid your biological media becoming clogged up quickly and while it will reduce flow, your biological media will remain cleaner for longer. You can easily access the sponge on the filter strainer to clean it regularly, rather than having to open the canister filter to clean the mechanical sponges to maintain flow.


Yes he does seem to cram it in! I think your take is right, that it's better to have just a bit of media for filtration, but to keep in mind that flow is v important, I won't stuff the filter! 



dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I think @Wookii was after the plastic media?
> 
> If people don't have an alternative, I actually quite like the Kaldnes K1 type <"floating cell media"> and I wouldn't have any reservations about using it.
> 
> Same as @ScareCrow for me, if you have your sponges in the pre-filter you probably don't need any in the filter body. We have a <"few threads about these"> where people have drilled more holes in the intake and swapped the pre-filter ones for a coarser grade of sponge.
> 
> Is that the very expensive premium grade media he sells, I wonder?
> 
> cheers Darrel


Oh that's interesting, when I set mine up @Wookii can have it I think, I need to check that I have enough eheim small balls and big penne first, but I think I should have enough already. 

I'll look into drilling the holes, that bit does make sense for flow, though I might try to buy an extra pipe for it. Glad to see there's an easy consensus on this here to make it nice and simple. Don't know why I ever look at anything else 😂



Sammy Islam said:


> The only thing i did from that video is drill extra holes in the prefilter tube, no idea if it improved things as i did it before i started using it, but i imgine it would help a little.
> 
> I have a blue sponge in the bottom tray, then a couple of baskets with a little bit of seachem matrix and fluval ceramic rings, each tray is about 1/4 full. Then the top basket is the orange (finer) foam, flow is decent.


Great!! Thanks for describing the way yours is set up, I think this will be my plan too. Do you clean the prefilter weekly?


----------



## Sammy Islam

shangman said:


> Yes he does seem to cram it in! I think your take is right, that it's better to have just a bit of media for filtration, but to keep in mind that flow is v important, I won't stuff the filter!
> 
> 
> Oh that's interesting, when I set mine up @Wookii can have it I think, I need to check that I have enough eheim small balls and big penne first, but I think I should have enough already.
> 
> I'll look into drilling the holes, that bit does make sense for flow, though I might try to buy an extra pipe for it. Glad to see there's an easy consensus on this here to make it nice and simple. Don't know why I ever look at anything else 😂
> 
> 
> Great!! Thanks for describing the way yours is set up, I think this will be my plan too. Do you clean the prefilter weekly?



Yup i clean the prefilter weekly, usually the day after a water change as this gives the prefilter a chance to suck up any detritus i didn't manage to suck up during the water change. Also gives it a chance to suck up any plant bits after a trim. 

I clean the tubing and glassware every 3 weeks, just as it develops a slight brown film. I clean the filter and media itself every 4 weeks and make sure i clean and lubricate the seals too.


----------



## Wookii

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I think @Wookii was after the plastic media?



I am indeed! 👀



shangman said:


> Oh that's interesting, when I set mine up @Wookii can have it I think, I need to check that I have enough eheim small balls and big penne first, but I think I should have enough already.



That would be very kind! I could swap you for a tray of Eheim balls if you like, pre-seeded with bacteria!


----------



## mort

This is a picture of my latest monstera cutting that's currently sat in a bucket waiting for me to get on with the new build. Not as big as the last one yet but coming along, apart from a little tatty leaf edges. That's a 30cm ruler for scale and it's just beginning to get nice fenestrations. Sorry the pics are dark but it should serve as a warning for people who want to add emersed growth to their nanos


----------



## Maf 2500

Just a note on the filter media. The round Eheim coco pops do not play nice with the Oase Biomaster baskets. By some weird coincidence the spacing of the holes in the base of the basket is such that one ball falls and wedges into each and every space in the grid and would seriously restrict the flow. I thought I had a pic but nothing on my phone; it has to be seen to be believed. Putting the media in net bags might help but not sure it would completely cure the problem. My solution is to cut the blue foam into 1cm slices and in each basket put 1cm of foam under 2-3cm of biological media. 

My filter is still boxed up waiting for my new tank to be delivered but the current plan for the baskets is: 
1. Default plastic media in bag. (Only 1 basket instead of 2 but media looks good for initial settlement and won't restrict flow hardly at all.)
2. Standard blue foam.
3-5. 1cm blue foam topped with biological media.
6. Standard orange foam.

I have also drilled the extra holes in the intake tube as shown in pondguru's vid. 

Great thread btw, looking forward to seeing your setup.


----------



## Wookii

Maf 2500 said:


> Just a note on the filter media. The round Eheim coco pops do not play nice with the Oase Biomaster baskets. By some weird coincidence the spacing of the holes in the base of the basket is such that one ball falls and wedges into each and every space in the grid and would seriously restrict the flow. I thought I had a pic but nothing on my phone; it has to be seen to be believed. Putting the media in net bags might help but not sure it would completely cure the problem. My solution is to cut the blue foam into 1cm slices and in each basket put 1cm of foam under 2-3cm of biological media.
> 
> My filter is still boxed up waiting for my new tank to be delivered but the current plan for the baskets is:
> 1. Default plastic media in bag. (Only 1 basket instead of 2 but media looks good for initial settlement and won't restrict flow hardly at all.)
> 2. Standard blue foam.
> 3-5. 1cm blue foam topped with biological media.
> 6. Standard orange foam.
> 
> I have also drilled the extra holes in the intake tube as shown in pondguru's vid.
> 
> Great thread btw, looking forward to seeing your setup.



Check out post #311: 
Post in thread 'Oase BioMaster Thermo External Filter'
Oase BioMaster Thermo External Filter 😉


----------



## Maf 2500

Wookii said:


> Check out post #311:
> Post in thread 'Oase BioMaster Thermo External Filter'
> Oase BioMaster Thermo External Filter 😉


Good pic. When I tested it out dry I had even more holes blocked than in the image. Also, about 1% of the balls were small enough to fall all the way through.


----------



## shangman

Sammy Islam said:


> Yup i clean the prefilter weekly, usually the day after a water change as this gives the prefilter a chance to suck up any detritus i didn't manage to suck up during the water change. Also gives it a chance to suck up any plant bits after a trim.
> 
> I clean the tubing and glassware every 3 weeks, just as it develops a slight brown film. I clean the filter and media itself every 4 weeks and make sure i clean and lubricate the seals too.



Cleaning it the day after is a pro tip, thank you! Makes total sense. How do you lubricate the seals, with vaseline?



Wookii said:


> I am indeed! 👀
> 
> That would be very kind! I could swap you for a tray of Eheim balls if you like, pre-seeded with bacteria!


Does bacteria last in the mail? 😂

I'm happy to give away I think, will check with the filter tomorrow. Do you prefer the plastic media? Just curious.



mort said:


> This is a picture of my latest monstera cutting that's currently sat in a bucket waiting for me to get on with the new build. Not as big as the last one yet but coming along, apart from a little tatty leaf edges. That's a 30cm ruler for scale and it's just beginning to get nice fenestrations. Sorry the pics are dark but it should serve as a warning for people who want to add emersed growth to their nanos



Wow, what a beautiful plant, and already pretty monsterous. Really looking forward to seeing it with your tank soon, it's gonna be beautifully wild.



Maf 2500 said:


> Just a note on the filter media. The round Eheim coco pops do not play nice with the Oase Biomaster baskets. By some weird coincidence the spacing of the holes in the base of the basket is such that one ball falls and wedges into each and every space in the grid and would seriously restrict the flow. I thought I had a pic but nothing on my phone; it has to be seen to be believed. Putting the media in net bags might help but not sure it would completely cure the problem. My solution is to cut the blue foam into 1cm slices and in each basket put 1cm of foam under 2-3cm of biological media.
> 
> My filter is still boxed up waiting for my new tank to be delivered but the current plan for the baskets is:
> 1. Default plastic media in bag. (Only 1 basket instead of 2 but media looks good for initial settlement and won't restrict flow hardly at all.)
> 2. Standard blue foam.
> 3-5. 1cm blue foam topped with biological media.
> 6. Standard orange foam.
> 
> I have also drilled the extra holes in the intake tube as shown in pondguru's vid.
> 
> Great thread btw, looking forward to seeing your setup.





Wookii said:


> Check out post #311:
> Post in thread 'Oase BioMaster Thermo External Filter'
> Oase BioMaster Thermo External Filter 😉



Aha thank you for this vv useful tip, I'll cut up one of the foam pads nice and thin to be the base for baskets. I think I will drill the holes too, that sounds like a good plant to get more flow and mroe even distribution of muck in the prefilter.

Yes it is a really nice thread, it's so good to get everyones feedback on all these things and chat about the different ingenius solutions that everyone has! I'm relatively new to aquaria, I know a few specific things quite well, but every new project throws up so many new questions. It makes it much more exciting and less anxiety-inducing that I have your backs and don't worry so much about things going wrong. 😍


----------



## Wookii

shangman said:


> Does bacteria last in the mail? 😂



lol I'm pretty sure they'd still be crawling avidly after a couple of days in a bag - they'd probably increase actually given the additonal oxygen - @dw1305 will know, he loves bacteria! 



shangman said:


> I'm happy to give away I think, will check with the filter tomorrow. Do you prefer the plastic media? Just curious.



I just want a bit more flow out of the filter, and I have come to think, in a planted tank, the plastic media is sufficient and easier to clean.




shangman said:


> Aha thank you for this vv sueful tip, I'll cut up one of the foam pads nice and thin to be the base for baskets. I think I will drill the holes too, that sounds like a good plant to get more flow and mroe even distribution of muck in the prefilter.



Putting the additional holes in the prefilter tube do work well, but not in the way I expected. I didn't notice a significant increase in flow when the sponges are clean. It's when the sponges start to clog at the end of the week, the additional holes help maintain the flow, where it can start to drop off - particularly if you use the fine black sponges like I do on my low tech.

Also you don't get even use of the sponges by adding the extra holes, the water follows the path of least resistance, or probably more accurately is drawn through the prefilter sponges at the points of greatest pressure difference/suction - so you'll find that the sponge at the top of the prefilter is always the dirtiest, as the majority of the water is drawn through that when they are clean. As that clogs, more water is drawn through the next sponge down and so on.


----------



## shangman

Wookii said:


> lol I'm pretty sure they'd still be crawling avidly after a couple of days in a bag - they'd probably increase actually given the additonal oxygen - @dw1305 will know, he loves bacteria!
> 
> I just want a bit more flow out of the filter, and I have come to think, in a planted tank, the plastic media is sufficient and easier to clean.
> 
> Putting the additional holes in the prefilter tube do work well, but not in the way I expected. I didn't notice a significant increase in flow when the sponges are clean. It's when the sponges start to clog at the end of the week, the additional holes help maintain the flow, where it can start to drop off - particularly if you use the fine black sponges like I do on my low tech.
> 
> Also you don't get even use of the sponges by adding the extra holes, the water follows the path of least resistance, or probably more accurately is drawn through the prefilter sponges at the points of greatest pressure difference/suction - so you'll find that the sponge at the top of the prefilter is always the dirtiest, as the majority of the water is drawn through that when they are clean. As that clogs, more water is drawn through the next sponge down and so on.


Aha, that's interesting about the holes - I'll def give it a go, we all like a bit of extra flow!

I'm thinking of keeping one bag of the plastic media to see how it is, but I'm happy to send you the second bag. PM me your address and I'll send it to you next week. DW about the media, I think will be ok!

_________

I'm bringing the tank in and positioning it tonight. Planning on changing the water on all 3 of my tanks and sucking up some mulm which I'll put in it the new tank. Also thinking of taking the wood (with all the plants it has on it) from my <Mossy Spider Nano Tank> and just placing it in the new one, I'm sure it has a lot of good ecosystem stuff on it that'll help the new tank, and I think the shrimps will be fine with a semi-Iguwami for a few weeks. Then will add filter media, half new tap + rainwater and a load of new floating plants, dead leaves and twigs, maybe some vallis. Will change a bit of the water daily. Probably will add the fish a day or two after setting up just in case, I think that catching them is gonna be a real pain!

Current question - I have a twinstar and a little timer/dimmer thing on it. I think from what I've read it's going to be extremely bright, what do you guys think the % brightness should be on a lowtech tank? Hopefully my floating plants will come to cover the surface quite quickly, I'll have a few plants under water to help with the health of the system so it can't be super dark.


----------



## Samala

shangman said:


> I think that catching them is gonna be a real pain!


Try a fry trap. Your juveniles will be a terror to catch in the display with all the plants. Fry trap should work well since you have the littles trained on BBS. Just check it regularly so that there aren't too many in the trap at any one time. Works great on borellii fry though there are still a half-dozen juveniles in my main display that are too smart for the trap and too fast for me.


----------



## Djoko Sauza

My oase biomaster had quite a loud humming sound. Tried replacing the impeller, cleaning everything up, less media, more media, nothing worked. 
Now it sits on top of a thick sturdy sponge and I can barely tell it is working.

So that might help if you think it's loud.

On a different topic, what style are you going for, more of a nature aquarium or diorama?


----------



## shangman

Samala said:


> Try a fry trap. Your juveniles will be a terror to catch in the display with all the plants. Fry trap should work well since you have the littles trained on BBS. Just check it regularly so that there aren't too many in the trap at any one time. Works great on borellii fry though there are still a half-dozen juveniles in my main display that are too smart for the trap and too fast for me.


Aha! Perfect idea thank you, I'll make one of these for the special day. I fed them some BBS yesterday and they went mad for it so I think will be quite easy, and I got some blackworms a day ago for the new tank, they always get the fish interested. I suspect I'll be catching babies for a good week, I know there are about 30 in there but they're v good at hiding. When I'm not in front of the tank I can usually only see about 5 - it's only when I put my face in front and they think "Hooray, food!" that they all come out of hiding.



Diogo Sousa said:


> My oase biomaster had quite a loud humming sound. Tried replacing the impeller, cleaning everything up, less media, more media, nothing worked.
> Now it sits on top of a thick sturdy sponge and I can barely tell it is working.
> 
> So that might help if you think it's loud.
> 
> On a different topic, what style are you going for, more of a nature aquarium or diorama?


Perfect, I have a nice bit of thick sturdy foam from a project, I think that should do a nice bit of work for me. I use something similar already under my current filter.

I had to look up the nature vs diorama, I think it will be the nature style. I'm personally not a big fan of the diorama style, I don't want it to look like a tiny person could take a stroll through the tank, or that the tank could contain a magical portal, and not really into paths. I'm hoping it will look like a really nice natural but special place for the fish that they clearly belong in. Although I have a plant list and inspiration, I don't really know what it'll look like yet!  think once I get the wood, I can do some experiments with the hardscape and do some drawing over the photographs to get an idea of what it might look like.

While googling the nature aquarium style more last night I saved loads of pictures so here are some. I haven't found a tank that I think is perfect to replicate, but there are often sections or ideas I really like that I think I'll try...




 



With both the above pics I like the mix of the wood with moss above the pale sand. I would have some more pebbles, little plants and details in my sand, but I think the wood will climb into it too. I like that kind of mangrove vibe, I think the apistos would appreciate a few little caves like this.

Quite tempted by a bit of bolbitis in the tnak behind the wood, but I saw somewhere (I think a journal here) how absolutely massive it gets which worried me a bit.





Love this heavier planting on the wood, the mix of the moss and mini java fern + the grasses and stems is great.




^ this looks like a weird photoshop and if real must be a massive tank, but I love the mix of grasses with other plants dotted in, it has a beautiful meadow feel, which the lotus works great with. Reminds me a bit of one of @Ady34's tanks which I think is lovely. I'm planning on having a sandy bit + some darker plants around the wood.





The left side of this tank is perfect to me, exactly the sort of thing I want to try.


Are any fo these possible without CO2? Probably not, we'll see how it goes! 😂


----------



## Conort2

shangman said:


> Are any fo these possible without CO2?


Some of them definitely will be. The second tank shown looks like it just has moss and anubias in it. Last one also looks like it has fairly easy plants in it too. However it’ll take quite a while to achieve dense growth without co2. 

Cheers


----------



## shangman

Conort2 said:


> Some of them definitely will be. The second tank shown looks like it just has moss and anubias in it. Last one also looks like it has fairly easy plants in it too. However it’ll take quite a while to achieve dense growth without co2.
> 
> Cheers


Yeah, my thought with the moss is with a dry start, I can get it to do really well in about 3 months, it's worked great in my nano tank. I'm planning all easy plants to achieve the lushness, and will mix together bought plants with plants I already have to get it as thick as possible from the beginning to encourage good growth. I'm hoping it'll look lush 6 months or so from flooding, with plenty of time for things to grow in, and for extra plants to be added in any bald spots. Not expecting any thick stem bushes, though might see if I can fake that a bit with stems in front of a lusher plant that creates the depth.

Current plant list:

*Wood plants*
Fissidens & mini Christmas moss - will also go on any rocks I add as well to soften them.
Mini java fern & java fern trident
A mix of buce for detail
Hygrophila Pinnatifida (not sure if will work, testing in my tanks atm)
Bolbitis (maybe)

*Grasses & grass-like, from long to short, background to foreground*
Crinum calamistratum
Vallis nana
Vallis spiralis (just a tiny bit) (does anyone know that red vallis? I've never seen it sold but it looks cool af)
Echinodorus tenellus (a good amount, love this for blending area together)
Eleocharis acicularis
Maybe another kind of mid-height grass with a slightly different colour/leaf shape to those here.
Maybe another background long-leaf, like an aponogeton

*Big leaves*
Nymphaea zenkeri
Maybe another nymphaea, which has a slightly different colour of leaves, there seems to be one I can't find the name for which is green and bright pink that looks really nice.
Echinodorus red diamond
Echinodorus hadi red pearl
Maybe some more echinodorus, I do like them. Maybe Ocelot or Aflame.

*Stems*
Ludwigia Sp. Mini Super Red
Ludwigia arcuata
Rotala H'ra
Heteranthera zosterifolia - grows well but gets tatty quite quickly, don't want too much.
Ludwigia glandulosa (might not work, will be a test)
The stems I'll buy some different varieties and see how they do. If I can get one stem that grows strongly then I can use that to grow individual stems around and it looks better.

*Details:*
Hydrocotyle verticillata
Hydrocotyle tripartita
Crypt albida brown
Buces

Emergent plants are tba, but will almost all be stem plants and maybe echinodorus coming out with moss I think.


----------



## afroturf

Really like your inspiration for the your planned tank, big fan of the original early nature aquarium style.

I'm no aquascaping expert and I know it is hard but I'd defiantly try a cut down on the proposed plant list. All the tanks you posted above are larger than a 900, and have significantly fewer plants than you list even the busy grassy tank with the lilies by Yusuke Homma only has 16 species in.

Less is more as they say


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## shangman

Oh no, _less is more_ certainly isn't the case here, MORE IS MORE in this house. So much so that I wrote my Master's dissertation on how and why Maximalism is brilliant. This journal shall contain no minimalism at all! 

Indeed, I put my tank in place this afternoon and thought to myself... It's absolutely massive, I can fit even more in than I thought!


----------



## Courtneybst

shangman said:


> Oh no, _less is more_ certainly isn't the case here, MORE IS MORE in this house. So much so that I wrote my Master's dissertation on how and why Maximalism is brilliant. This journal shall contain no minimalism at all!
> 
> Indeed, I put my tank in place this afternoon and thought to myself... It's absolutely massive, I can fit even more in than I thought!



I can't wait for this haha. Go awf!


----------



## shangman

I got the tank in place yesterday, and today I cleaned a load of playsand and filled the tank with water (just tap). COR I tell you what, I definitely need a python my arms are bloody killing me. I really can't get over how massive it is, I have to get my arm fully in there to reach the bottom, will have to invest in some sleeveless tops. Quite pleased though while washing sand I found some old wood in the garden that'll add a bit of interest, it seems like 25 years ago my dad went on a bogwood search, and when he stopped keeping fish (the tank leaked so we got leopard geckos instead), he just chucked all sorts into the back garden, very useful. I'll post some photos tomorrow when the leaves sink and the filters in, it's a semi-blackwater kinda style cos I don't have many plants to spare.

Feeling a little daunted atm, though I felt that when I got my first one too so hopefully can get my head around it!

-------

Thinking about the maximalism thing and @afroturf 's planting suggestions I wanted to clarify cos I didn't mean it in a rude way, I know you are all so well meaning and lovely! When I said 'Nature Aquarium' vs Diorama style I now realise it makes people think of Amano, though when I think nature aquarium, I just think of the shared inspiration of nature. Really I'm doing a nature-garden aquarium (is that an official style? idk), something that mimics nature but not rigidly, that takes a few liberties to get a bold effect. I like plants and I want to grow a lot of them, but positioned in a naturalist way rather than a Dutch-style. We'll see what it looks like though, and of course I'm still pondering CO2 to make the dream tank. Currently thinking I will leave the dicrossus and other particularly sensitive fish for a while, they deserve a 100% rainwater lowtech, but I really want to try the lush fancy garden first. One day I'll own an actual house so I can pump rainwater directly and of out of the tanks and have the best of both worlds, keeping fish seems to be a great way to learn gardening, biology, chemistry, plumbing, electronics, love it.


----------



## shangman

I've just set up the filter, the Oase Biomaster Thermo 600. At the moment is it loud, and for the past 30 mins is still expelling air every 30 seconds or so, with a bigger amount every minute or two. I've been shaking it a bit to try to get all the air out but it does seem like a lot and no signs of stopping or getting quieter. It's in our bedroom so has to be not loud, I can insulate the cabinet but I don't think it's working properly yet. Any ideas what to do? Been doing some searching and not much has come up. I've done everything according by the booklet and Oase's YouTube video.


----------



## Sammy Islam

shangman said:


> I've just set up the filter, the Oase Biomaster Thermo 600. At the moment is it loud, and for the past 30 mins is still expelling air every 30 seconds or so, with a bigger amount every minute or two. I've been shaking it a bit to try to get all the air out but it does seem like a lot and no signs of stopping or getting quieter. It's in our bedroom so has to be not loud, I can insulate the cabinet but I don't think it's working properly yet. Any ideas what to do? Been doing some searching and not much has come up. I've done everything according by the booklet and Oase's YouTube video.



I cleaned my impellor area on sunday and mine has become much louder. I guess it needs to build up some brown stuff so theres less friction, so should quieten down in a week or so. I wrapped some ptfe tape around the two red plugs on the impellor to give it a tighter fit which has helped slightly.


----------



## shangman

Sammy Islam said:


> I cleaned my impellor area on sunday and mine has become much louder. I guess it needs to build up some brown stuff so theres less friction, so should quieten down in a week or so. I wrapped some ptfe tape around the two red plugs on the impellor to give it a tighter fit which has helped slightly.


A week! That's a long time with no sleep, it's really too loud right now 😭 going to take it apart and put it back together again, I think some air must be getting into it from a connection or something cos the air never seems to fully go. Odd, it's not leaking and the end of the pipes went on really far but idk what else it could be. I needed to take it apart to add established media tomorrow anyway! But this is annoying ffs, I wish filters just worked without the inevitable palava.


----------



## shangman

Unrelated but interesting (to me)... my 'main' tank has always been opposite my desk, so I face away from it and have to fully turn around to see it. I have a skylight above the desk, and usually when I look at the tank my face casts a shadow. My new tank is now in this position.

I never see my kuhli loaches in my 60L ever, maybe like once a week if I'm lucky in the early morning. This tank used to be in the main position, but is now to my right temporarily until the tank is all set up in like 2 months. Today I was glancing over and realised that there were 2 kuhlis sandsifting in the front together, with Motherfish not even bothering them. What the hell! In the middle of the day! They've must have been doing this the whole time and just immediately leaving whenever I appear. They do seem to like the grassy margins. I'm still not sure whether to keep them or not, when you see them they're so extremely cute and cool, but not ever seeing them is super annoying, I wonder whether getting like 10 more would sort that out, anyone with any experience of that? I just turned around now and saw another one in another area wiggling about, I guess they are not as unhappy as I thought!

It's really nice to be able to watch the fish when they don't realise I'm watching! I wonder what else I'll see...


----------



## mort

How many khulis do you currently have? 
I like fish like this tbh as it's nice and exciting to see glimpses of them from time to time. They also seem to make me actually stop and look at every inch of the tank in the hopes of seeing them which makes me see things I'd normally miss. 
My tank is right next to where I sit, so I can be quiet and still and things happen that you wouldn't see if you just pressed your face to the glass a few times a day. I really like poco pozo and bucket of mud, for Toms use of fish that cover a vast array of niches. I doubt khulis actually add much to the bioload of any tank, never mind a fully grown in planted tank, so I'd suggest you keep them for the fleeting glances you get but adding more will definitely help.


----------



## ScareCrow

I think the best solution is to get so many that they physically cannot hide. Effectively a khuli loach substrate. That's meant sarcastically but I really like them. I've not kept them for a long time as I always thought they were little egg hoovers. Looks like that's not happened in your tank though. I think as long as they have enough hiding spots (preferably fairly narrow tubes) and you have a group of them (minimum 6) they're quite confident, especially when there is food. I had them with dwarf puffers though, so there wasn't much competition for food and no boisterous fish to frighten them.


----------



## shangman

mort said:


> How many khulis do you currently have?
> I like fish like this tbh as it's nice and exciting to see glimpses of them from time to time. They also seem to make me actually stop and look at every inch of the tank in the hopes of seeing them which makes me see things I'd normally miss.
> My tank is right next to where I sit, so I can be quiet and still and things happen that you wouldn't see if you just pressed your face to the glass a few times a day. I really like poco pozo and bucket of mud, for Toms use of fish that cover a vast array of niches. I doubt khulis actually add much to the bioload of any tank, never mind a fully grown in planted tank, so I'd suggest you keep them for the fleeting glances you get but adding more will definitely help.


Well this is the thing, I have the same attitude about fish as you described, when I first started reading Tom's Poco Pozo I think I stayed up really late just going through it all and admiring it, it really changed how I thought fishtanks could be. And the lights do get me to inspect every cm of the tank for an illusive glimpse, they're a bit like unicorns. But I would like to see them out and about and obviously comfortable and happy as I did today. Perhaps over the next 2 months that they're in the new tank position I'll come to love them again.

I currently have 7, had 8 but one jumped out quite early on. I was thinking of having 15-20 if I did have more, I do feel that the number I have now isn't quite enough for them to feel comfortable. Over the past year I feel more and more suspicious of the minimum 6-8 rule for so many fish, and wonder if it's more like 15, 20, 40, 100+ in reality, we just can't do that too often. That's one of the reasons I liked Tom's Poco Pozo, it felt generous in the stocking, but not overstocked at the same time cos they had their different niches. I think I might fall in love with them again if with this new easy of seeing the tank I get to see their antics more, they are very charming on the rate occasions they appear and before I even had a tank they were the fish I wanted the most.



ScareCrow said:


> I think the best solution is to get so many that they physically cannot hide. Effectively a khuli loach substrate. That's meant sarcastically but I really like them. I've not kept them for a long time as I always thought they were little egg hoovers. Looks like that's not happened in your tank though. I think as long as they have enough hiding spots (preferably fairly narrow tubes) and you have a group of them (minimum 6) they're quite confident, especially when there is food. I had them with dwarf puffers though, so there wasn't much competition for food and no boisterous fish to frighten them.


I wonder what 50 together would look like! Then I think I'd at least see one or two sometimes. I read they would eat the eggs/babies too, but either they weren't interested or Motherfish kept them away. I did keep a desk light on the tank for the first 3 days when they were very tiny so she would be able to see any kuhlis coming near her. For a while I was very suspicious that they were greedy conniving predators, but then I realised they're really just stupid little wiggles who would only eat fry/eggs if they accidentally stumbled upon them untended. I am keeping the 60L, so I could keep them in that (in a blackwater style), though I was thinking this could be my breeding tank so might only contain some pygmy cories or some other small fish that definitely wouldn't eat fry. The kuhlis do like swimming about madly sometimes and I think they would enjoy the big tank, which will have wood and lots of leaves and heavy planting for them to hide in. They really like the margins of the sand inbetween grasses too. 

They've been quite shy since I first got them, there was one which would come out a lot at first but that stopped. I think 7 isn't really enough yet. When I move the babies to the new tank, I might try adding 3 or 4 more to the 60L to see if that changes them a bit.


----------



## mort

I've wrote about it before but I had a group of 200 or so khulis to look after and you only saw a dozen or two at a time but it was pretty constant. They definitely become more secure in big groups but I do think that group has to be massive to get a lot of visual activity out of them. They are quite outgoing in more stained water, probably because they feel safer.

I know your a more is more person with plants but I heard a nice general rule for fish recommended that I really like but most others won't. It's basically the three species rule, so no matter how big your tank you only have three main species in there (the odd bristletooth or apisto pair doesn't really count). It means in a massive tank you are encouraged to have massive groups of fish rather than a mish mash of species. It's like the classic angelfish with a schooling tetra and cories.


----------



## shangman

To be honest I think the 3 rule isn't a bad one, I was thinking along similar lines for this tank. I am more is more with the plants and the designs, but not about cramming as many fish types in as possible. I'm more is more about fish happiness lol, what their needs are and how I can encourage really interesting natural behaviour with them is most important. One of the big reasons I got this bigger tank is that I felt my otos weren't quite happy, I think I need more of them, especially now they are quite big and fat.

In a v boring zoom call this morning so thinking about future stocking...

*Definitely* -
2 - 3 apistogramma macmasteri
10/12 otocinclus

*Schooling fish* - I'd like a good-sized school of small fish, ideally which have interesting behaviour. I've never really let myself had a proper look at these fish in the shop because I didn't have the space for them, so these are all options which I want to see irl to really appreciate them. Ideally I want something which has interesting behaviour somehow, but maybe a simple pretty school would be nice.  Would be interested in what people think, what your favourites are, etc.
green neon tetras
ember tetras
X-ray tetras (would be a smaller school, maybe secondary school)
chilli rasbora
lambchop rasbora
_Any other rasboras? I don't know much about them. Not really want kubotai as want to get some colours in other than green._

Pencilfish - hockeystick - look super interesting and quite funny, but they aren't particularly colourful. Is it worth it for the behaviour?
Pencilfish - Nannostomus marginatus
Threadfin rainbows - these are bigger but look like they're quite funny and have tiny mouths so don't eat fry apparently. Not sure if they jump?
dwarf rainsbows - not sure if the tank is big enough? but they do look small and beautiful

Pygmy corydoras - I have 10 of these in my 45L tank and they are extremely cute, I feel like 30/40/50 in a group could be fab. Probably the oens we have will go into the 60L and add a few more anyway.

*Other Fish *
15++ kuhli loaches (may go in the 60L which would be blackwater which I imagine they'd like a lot. The 60L may turn into a 90L once the new main tank is set up, so it's got a 60x40 footprint which I think would be appreciated, with lots of riparium foliage at the top. But also this might be a breeding tank so idk, maybe the 45L becomes a breeding tank instead
15 corydoras habrosus/panda corys/aspidorus (still a bit unsure as people say that corys don't go with apistos, but I had some leopard corys whe I was like 3 and they were my favourite, wondering if the small ones I could get away with. My motherfish isn't that agressive, she chases rather than injures)
6 dicrossus filamentosus/dicrossus maculatus - depends on how much rainwater I can get in there, if I bred them it would be in the blackwater but general living in the main tank.
Amanos - depends on the water as well.
15 rosy loaches - these look quite sweet, and my name is Rosie so keeping them amused me
10 dwarf chain loaches - probably the same problems as with the corys, not sure about shyness.
Darter tetras - if I could find, these look v interesting, not sure if would need full rain

So it would be:
Apistos
Otos
1 big school
1 lot of "other fish"
maybe a smaller school or some other random fish perhaps, to decide once I've stocked the tank if it seems ok
I'm not sure if the tank is big enough for 2 schools. Like maybe a mix of pencils and tetras/rasboras ? or pygmy corys and rasboras/tetras/pencils. But would wait and see what it looks like with the one - I think I'd rather have 1 good sized confident school.

Anyone have any suggestions? Also interested in weird 'Other fish' that have funny behaviours that my apistos won't absolutely hate lol


----------



## ScareCrow

I'd go for killifish or pseudomugil rainbows rather than tetras, rasbora or threadfin rainbows. Just personal preference nothing against any of them.

If you do consider killifish I think the following would be of interest, if you've not seen it already: giant tank for killis


----------



## shangman

mort said:


> I've wrote about it before but I had a group of 200 or so khulis to look after and you only saw a dozen or two at a time but it was pretty constant. They definitely become more secure in big groups but I do think that group has to be massive to get a lot of visual activity out of them. They are quite outgoing in more stained water, probably because they feel safer.


Also where have you written about all these kuhlis before? Got any pictures? 👀


ScareCrow said:


> I'd go for killifish or pseudomugil rainbows rather than tetras, rasbora or threadfin rainbows. Just personal preference nothing against any of them.
> 
> If you do consider killifish I think the following would be of interest, if you've not seen it already: giant tank for killis


Oooh yes those pseudomugil rainbows are lovely! Is there behaviour very cool? They are definitely on the list of potentials. The only thing is that I'll be aiming for a pH of 6.5ish, not sure if they'd be happy with that.

I have seen that journal before, it's absolutely beautiful... but that was before I got this new big tank, it's nice to look at them again now with new eyes and think what ideas I can pilfer!! I hadn't considered killifish at all, aren't they very predatory? I'm not going for explicitely non-fry eating fish, but I'd like it if the occasional fry survived.Do you have any recs for particular killis?


----------



## ScareCrow

shangman said:


> Is there behaviour very cool?


The males do some pretty extravagant displays. Similar to threadfins really, I just find threadfins to be a bit dull in terms of colour.


shangman said:


> pH of 6.5ish, not sure if they'd be happy with that


_P. gertrudae_ and _P_._iriani _will be fine with that. There's a killi for every occasion so you shouldn't have any problem finding one that matches your parameters. Actually finding the fish will be the hardest part but you can often get eggs posted to your door and then you get to enjoy raising them from eggs. For most of the commonly kept species they seem to prefer slightly cooler 22-23 degrees Celsius but I think that's mainly for breeding and possibly increases longevity slightly.


shangman said:


> aren't they very predatory?


Some are more so than others. I think something like _Epiplatys annulatus _would be ok with fry. They're quite small and spend most of their time near the surface (assuming there's vegetation for cover). I've kept Fundulopanchax _gardneri _'Jos Plateau' but wouldn't risk them with fry, they're very aggressive to one another and I imagine they might be able to stand their ground with some cichlids. I think _Aphyosemion _are generally considered to be more peaceful but I'm sure that's more of a rough guide than a rule. _Aphyosemion australe _are quite easy to get hold of and are supposedly quite peaceful but every time I've seen them they are lurking in the middle to lower layers of the tank so might make your apistos a little uncomfortable. Lampeye Killifish (_Poropanchax normani_) are another one that's easy to get hold of and I don't think they'd cause any problems.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


ScareCrow said:


> I just find threadfins to be a bit dull in terms of colour


You can't go by them in the LFS. They <"colour up really well when they are happy">, you get a real <"turquoise sheen to the body"> on the males, and you have the fin-flicking display as well.


ScareCrow said:


> I think something like _Epiplatys annulatus _would be ok with fry. They're quite small and spend most of their time near the surface (assuming there's vegetation for cover).


They are fine, but they jump and they aren't the easiest to keep.


ScareCrow said:


> Lampeye Killifish (_Poropanchax normani_) are another one that's easy to get hold of and I don't think they'd cause any problems.


I've had all <"three of these as dithers for _Apistogramma_">_, _and they all worked OK.

cheers Darrel


----------



## ScareCrow

@dw1305 I stand corrected. I knew rainbows tend to look washed out in LFS tanks but most pictures/videos/setups I've seen them in they've always looked washed out. In that case I'll get some as their fins and display routine are fantastic.
My friend had _Epiplatys annulatus _in with a pair of _Apistogramma baenschi inka. _He didn't report any problems but as you say they do jump so need a good lid. Same with most Killis though_._


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


ScareCrow said:


> In that case I'll get some as their fins and display routine are fantastic.


If I see the in a shop I always have a look to see if there are any females. Usually it is just males, but you really want a mix of ~ two males to five females. 


ScareCrow said:


> My friend had _Epiplatys annulatus _in with a pair of _Apistogramma baenschi inka. _He didn't report any problems but as you say they do jump so need a good lid.


They are good dither, but great jumpers. They are another fish <"that I will keep again">. I'd definitely get a <"vestigial winged _Drosophila_ culture"> for them. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## shangman

Very interesting discussion about these lovely fish @ScareCrow and @dw1305.



ScareCrow said:


> The males do some pretty extravagant displays. Similar to threadfins really, I just find threadfins to be a bit dull in terms of colour.
> 
> _P. gertrudae_ and _P_._iriani _will be fine with that. There's a killi for every occasion so you shouldn't have any problem finding one that matches your parameters. Actually finding the fish will be the hardest part but you can often get eggs posted to your door and then you get to enjoy raising them from eggs. For most of the commonly kept species they seem to prefer slightly cooler 22-23 degrees Celsius but I think that's mainly for breeding and possibly increases longevity slightly.
> 
> Some are more so than others. I think something like _Epiplatys annulatus _would be ok with fry. They're quite small and spend most of their time near the surface (assuming there's vegetation for cover). I've kept Fundulopanchax _gardneri _'Jos Plateau' but wouldn't risk them with fry, they're very aggressive to one another and I imagine they might be able to stand their ground with some cichlids. I think _Aphyosemion _are generally considered to be more peaceful but I'm sure that's more of a rough guide than a rule. _Aphyosemion australe _are quite easy to get hold of and are supposedly quite peaceful but every time I've seen them they are lurking in the middle to lower layers of the tank so might make your apistos a little uncomfortable. Lampeye Killifish (_Poropanchax normani_) are another one that's easy to get hold of and I don't think they'd cause any problems.


Sadly I think most of the killis aren't quite right, although they are absolutely stunning, I think you're right about them being too low with the apistos, really I want the schoolers to be a mid-top level fish. The _Epiplatys annulatus _are super beautiful, but this tank has a lid so I don't think they will live very long for me, tis a shame as they're a really beautiful fish. It's similar to the hatchetfish, I would have them if they wouldn't almost certainly all jump out! Your friends combo of them and _Apistogramma baenschi inka _sounds like a gorgeous combo.

When I first got fish, I wanted some schooling fish and at the shop couldn't decide between kubotai rasboras or lampeyes. In the end I went with the kubotai and almost immediately killed them all with my inexperience (and then joined here). I'd definitely get them in the future, as the lampeyes are very ghostly beautiful, but I think they work better with a lowerlight lowtech tank as they would stand out better than in my blue-background one. 



dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> You can't go by them in the LFS. They <"colour up really well when they are happy">, you get a real <"turquoise sheen to the body"> on the males, and you have the fin-flicking display as well.





dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> If I see the in a shop I always have a look to see if there are any females. Usually it is just males, but you really want a mix of ~ two males to five females.



Absolutely beautiful fish! Hopefully I could make them happy, good to know that they need a bit of love before they really get to their best. I'll keep in mind the gender ratios, what do you do if there are 8 males and 2 female,s not get the females? Will get be harrassed too much?


Well after this I've spent the evening watching youtube videos and I think the Threadfin Rainbows & the Pseudomugil rainbows (either the neon orange iriani or the white & yellow spotted gertrudae) are definitely at the top of the list. They look very impressive! Interestingly for the Pseudomugil I've seen them sold as eggs on ebay to raise which I haven't really noticed before except for killies, and never thought I might attempt! 😂 Quite reasonable too, 40 eggs for £25 is much cheaper than the fish themselves would be I think. They seem specialist enough that I won't be able to see them in shops and compare, so would def be interested in hearing from more people who kept them!


Even though their bodies aren't too colourful, the pastel yellow & bright pink fin edges with the black is super striking! And they've got an unusual shape with fins so long which I find rather interesting. 


These fish are so pretty, I think if I don't have enough lightness in the tank I might add them, they look so summery and joyful, like they're wearing chiffon polkadot dresses, a little Marilyn Monroe fish. Also love those little yellow fins and the way they look like bobbing rabbit ears.


Again, loving the yellow pecs, these ones have such a delicious orange colour, and I love their bright blue eyes.​


----------



## shangman

Yesterday I cleaned out the small waterbutt in the garden, which was about 60L or so. I replaced that with an absolutely massive secondhand waterbutt which my dad had stored behind the shed but never set it up, it's a good 200L+, so will be great for the new tank bigger water changes. I put most of the water from the smaller butt in the new aquarium, but I need about 40L extra before I can add the baby fish, and I have to wait until Friday to get it at the allotment as I need the car.

In the meantime, I've added 3 packs of blackworms to the new tank, which now has an air of Guillermo del Toro's _The Strain _about it, the playsand I added seems to be too fine (and compact?) for them to bury themselves in, so they're travelling about looking for leaves and seedpods to hide under. If a normal person had a look in the tank right now they'd be horrified, luckily we know better, worms are great! 😂




I watched this video last night and it looks really great, I'm a big fan of Filipe's aquascapes, they always look very natural with great plant mixes. Interesting to see the way he puts together the wood, then rocks and uses some expanding foam to 'glue' it all together. In the video he talks about how he adds lots of extra nutrients to the soil when starting, so he doesn't need to dose such a large amount of fertiliser later on, which I haven't come across before. Any thoughts on that?

I'm still umming and erring over whether to use fancy ADA aquasoil, or just normal soil with a sand cap. For my currently 60L tank the normal soil worked well, but it did up the water hardness for a long time (in fact it might still be, I havne't bothered to check for months). I am quite attracted to the idea of the soil buffering the water down, as well as not having to worry about the soil coming up past the sand whether I replant things (which I do like to do quite a lot), and that if I did a future rescape it would be easier. How much soil do you think is needed for a 180L tank with a potentially fancy aquascape? The size of the tank is big enough that I think some bigger slopes would work well to create a proper landscape.


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## shangman

Well, I'm afraid to say that the MTS has spread...

Today my dad found a 100cm(l)x40(d)x30(h) second hand tank for £65 locally, so we're gonna put my 45L+60L in storage and make a "pond" tank with riparium. Not sure if it will be blackwater or still green underneath yet, damn you all for tempting me earlier in this thread (but also I LOVE IT HOORAY!). Won't start it until the big one is set up... probably


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## mort

If you combine the 45 and 65 into this new tank then technically you are reducing the number of tanks you have it's when you decide in a weeks time to keep them running as well that you know your an addict.


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## shangman

mort said:


> If you combine the 45 and 65 into this new tank then technically you are reducing the number of tanks you have it's when you decide in a weeks time to keep them running as well that you know your an addict.


That's how I sold it to the family! I'm going from 4 to 3... let's ignore that there's an added 200L! I would like to keep one of the smaller ones going as a breeding/fry/quarantine/spare plants kinda tank, having an extra is just very useful, though I've no idea where it would go so will have to do some thinking 😂 If we had a bigger house there would be no limit to the tanks! One day I really want a macroalgae saltwater tank too.

In a way I'm adding another one later this summer, we're changing up part of the garden and adding a good-sized patio, and I'm planning on putting a nice big water trough pondette in, though have to plan it around the foxes.


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## shangman

Well this is the big tank right now - I set it up as just sand, leaves, twigs and seedpods, with an old bit of driftwood from the garden and @EA James beautiful java fern needle leaf, but then I decided I wanted it to be fancier to I also added the moss-covered wood for my 23L desk nano tank (journal here), cos it looked a bit bare, and I think more plants never hurts to help the water quality. I'm sure the shrimps won't mind, it can go back later lols. When I set the tank up properly this wood will return to the nano 

I've just added 7 babies, most disappeared immediately but two hid under the front leaves looking rather stressed going very dark, then very light within 30 seconds, then they started to swim towards the back. I saw one go for a blackworm before it disappeared, so I'm hoping that's a good sign. I think I'm going to add the rest tomorrow, just in case there's something wrong and I find the first few dead (this would make me very sad  ). There are some bladder snails and some tiny cherry shrimps in there, which look fine after a few days so I hope things are all ok, I tested the water and it was all fine, and the filter has a lot of mature media in it. Fingers crossed, this is rather stressful, they are so cute and I see the intelligence in their baby fish eyes, apistos really are very special.


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## shangman

Woke up this morning and the babies seemed fine in the new tank, so I've been transfering them all over. So far I've caught 36 total, with at least 1 still eluding me. The fry plastic bottle trick worked great, I put some blackworms in the bottom and they were easy to catch. I caught Motherfish twice, but she finally seemed to learn not to go in. Right now the babies are very shy in the new tank, and are patrolling around in groups of 2 and 3, I'll take some more photos today and tomorrow.

Happy Mother's Day to you all, Motherfish is celebrating the release from her duties!


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## shangman

Ok so we're a day into the babies being moved in (except for 2 elusive babies who don't seem interested in blackworms, will be trying bbs tomorrow), and they're LOVING IT. I'm so glad @alto suggested doing this, they're all out in the front together exploring and it's so cute and peaceful. They don't hide any more now Motherfish isn't there to harrass them, and they travel about finding different groups to be with, exploring in the seedpods and under leaves and all sorts. I've already seen them do some new behaviours, I've got v fine playsand which the bigger ones have started to sift while eating, and some of them are travelling up to the floating plants and look like they're trying to find small insects. Something that's beautiful to see, but so far impossible to photograph is that they school together often in a big group. Their colours have also become more apparent and beautiful, the males are a lot more yellow with more sparkle. I do wonder if I have more males than females, it's still quite hard to tell, they're about 2 - 3 long total atm.

Some photos -











​


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## shangman

Ok the cutest thing happened this morning which I don't have pictures of, but I'm going to try to get some or some video in the next few days.

So this morning I had the lights off in the tank, and just before the lights on, I looked in the tank and was worried that I couldn't see ANY babies anywhere and thought "have they all died suddenly, what oh no!?" (but with more swearing). 

So I turned the lights on to see better, and that's when when all of babies suddenly charged together in a shoal from the back. They seem to be resting at the back behind the wood in the right corner together, and as soon as the light went on all together as a shoal they swam to the left around the wood, and then did a U turn to the front, staring at me ready for their first meal of the day. Ughh it was soooooo cute, I love the way they group up together. I suppose at some point they'll start to get aggressive with each other as they become adults, but right now it's lovely how they are all pals. Depending on the mix of genders in the babies (it's still hard to tell), if I have excess males then I might keep a group of them in the end rather than 1m 2f, and give away motherfish to a responsible person who wants to try breeding. 

---

Also I went to pick up my new 100x40x30 tank last week, which was close to a Maidenhead in West London so of course had to pop in and have a look, and they had a very lovely big group of Dicrossus Filamentous that were very interactive and cute. I'm definitely going to get some of these for one of the new tanks (probably the new one I picked up, which will be 100% rainwater with blackwater pond riparium vibes). I think all the ones they sold were females though, none of them had lyretails but they were only about 3cm long. Either way, very sweet and reminded me a lot of my apistos.


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## shangman

Curiosity caught the fish...




Preparation for Wednesday, when the first few will go to their new home. I chucked the nets in so they're less afraid of them, and they just swam right in! 😂 Going to wave them about a bit today and tomorrow while feeding to make it even easier.


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## shangman

Another mini update

The first pair of babies went to their new home with @Courtneybst, <you can follow his beautiful tank here> if you don't already. Here is a photo (my favourite picture ever omg they've grown up and flown the nest) of the pair in their home.





I've also had another user request a pair, and if anyone wants to reserve a pair or more now is a good time, though they are still only about 2.5cm atm, they're really growing quickly and gaining colour, fabulous fins and confidence in the new tank. These fish will be free to anyone on UKAPS (though they have to be picked up from South London), I'd like to ensure as many as possible go to good homes before they go off to the fish shop where anyone can buy some. So DM me if you're interested 

----

I thought I'd do a little update on my 60L tank, which until this week was FILLED with spyrogira. I had previously done a blackout which didn't make much difference, and the spyro returned very quickly. This time however, I seem to have really given it a good blast and it's gone into hiding. Usually I aerate during a blackout with an airstone, but this time I decided to put in my trusty Eheim Pickup60 internal filter to add a bit more flow + disturb the surface. Then I just turned the lights off the tank for 2 days because I was very lazy and couldn't be bothered to do the blackout properly. Finally I mustered the courage to cover the tank in plastic bags, where they stayed for 2.5 days. I think mostly due to the extra flow from the mini filter, but also because of the extended darkness (and that there are now 36 less fish in it), it's worked GREAT. I was able to change the water this week and now have to spend half an hour pullng out algae, very good. None of the plants seem hurt by it either, except for the crinum where 3 leaves had 5cm of their ends die off, but considring these leaves are 30 - 80cm, it's not really a problem. I want to use all these plants in my new tank, so I want to try to at least beat the spyro back before I add them. Here's a photo of the tank rn, a bit overgrown, but as I want the plants for the new tank I'm letting everything grow a bit more and not punishing the vallis for spreading like mad.




I also had to catch one final baby apisto who refused to be tricked by any of the traps I tried. He is hidden 99% of the time, though sometimes he pops out to present himself to Motherfish and see if she might be up for it, and every time she chases him madly in a rage across the tank until he hides in some leaves. Finally today I caught him with a net and my hand, you can see how he seems to have developed fancier fins and face colours compared to his brothers, I think because he realised he was the only male and so started to try to take on the role of the new Mr Apisto. Motherfish took a bite out of his tail, so it's for the best that he's now in the tank with his kin.


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## shangman

My fish babies are doing well, I think probably in a month or so most will be ready to go to the shop, so I've been thinking about the new aquascape more. I've been spending my lunches watching aquascaping tutorials on youtube, below are some of my faouvirtes where I felt I've learnt the most.

Particularly liking the Filipe Oliveira videos, I really like watching the way he does things and how he collages with the wood. My default thought would be to try to find an amazing large pieces of wood for the tank, but now I realise I can 'build' my own, better more sculptural wood from multiple mid and small-sized pieces so I have more control over it. I also like in Dave Chow's video where some of the wood is set quite low in the sand to give it a more interesting shape.

I think I will also try the technique of using mostly aquasoil (probably ADA Amazonia RIP my bank account), and separating the aquasoil from the sand with a rock barrier (then covered in moss and buce). I want quite a good-sized sand area as my fav fish are sifters, but still the principles are there. Really looking forward to getting to it in a few months, can't wait to visit Crowder's Aquatics and get some beautiful wood! _____









I also made a moodboard kinda thing of what I want to cram in there


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## shangman

Today I have a few questions for everyone, cos I've started thinking about actually doing this tank up practically. I read in another thread earlier about a dark start, and watched the accompanying Green Aqua video, and I think it might be good to do with this tank. The filter will have been running for a good 6 weeks (if not longer) by the time the baby fish are gone, and I want to keep the bacteria in the filter going, but also don't want to set up the new aquascape immediately after giving the babies to the LFS. So my current plan is...

1. Buy wood & other hardscape within the month, put wood in waterbutts to sink.
2. Buy aquasoil (ADA Amazonia)
3. Give away babies.
4. Clean out aquarium, then fill with aquasoil and test out layouts. Take out hardscape (noting the shape for where moss should go), then fill aquarium with water and turn on filter again. Begin the dark 'start'.
5. Do a dry start on the wood and rocks to establish nice moss. Keep in a plastic box in the greenhouse. Wait 3-4 weeks. 
6. Drain all water in tank, add in mossy hardscape and sand. Say goodbye to pretty 60L, steal most of the plants and add to new tank, along with lots of other plants. Set up CO2 (probably a few days before so not too stressful a day!)
7. Wait ?? (3?) weeks, doing 2 waterchanges a week. Keep adding plants as/if needed & trimming to get more volume.
8. Start to add fishes. 

What do you guys think of that plan? This means my filter doesn't need to go through another cycle, and I can get my moss wood good (I think the dry start gives a more natural feel to the moss rather than tying it), and avoid having a lot of ammonia in the water from the soil when I plant, because I've heard some plants melt from the ammonia (like buces, hydrocotyle verticillata, etc) and I'd like to get all the plants in at once at the start. 

I'm unsure how many waterchange you need to do if you do a dry start, the videos said nothing and to me implied that you would just do one at the end of the 3-4 weeks of 100%, but I would like to know what you all think. Would like to avoid doing the daily changes if I can, it just seems like such a big waste of water as the plants don't need that much watering and I can't reach the garden with it. Weekly or bi-weekly, or no need until the end?

With this timeframe, would adding shrimps and/or fish be ok 3 weeks after the tank's been planted?


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## Tim Harrison

Sounds like a good plan. It should give the tank the best possible start. During a dark start there's usually no need to do any water changes, just drain it at the end before planting. After a dark start one or a couple of water changes a week should be fine, but only you'll be able to judge for sure.

You should be okay to start adding critters gradually pretty much straight away, but I always wait until I'm sure I've got the CO2 dialled in and there are no teething problems, and I'm completely sure I'm happy with the setup.


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## Wookii

As Amazonia puts out so much ammonia, it might be worth doing daily water changes early on (first week or so) if you can. Don't quote me, but I'm sure I read @dw1305 posted somewhere that high ammonia levels can have a negative affect on the growth of beneficial bacteria.


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## Tim Harrison

Wookii said:


> As Amazonia puts out so much ammonia, it might be worth doing daily water changes early on (first week or so) if you can. Don't quote me, but I'm sure I read @dw1305 posted somewhere that high ammonia levels can have a negative affect on the growth of beneficial bacteria.


That's true but the ammonia spike should have been dealt with during a 2-3 week dark start. It's pretty much the reason for doing one in the first place. Adding critters slowly afterwards should give the filter time to mature in sync.


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## dw1305

Hi all, 


Wookii said:


> Don't quote me, but I'm sure I read @dw1305 posted somewhere that high ammonia levels can have a negative affect on the growth of beneficial bacteria.


It is referenced in <"Water Changes........">.

cheers Darrel


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## shangman

Tim Harrison said:


> Sounds like a good plan. It should give the tank the best possible start. During a dark start there's usually no need to do any water changes, just drain it at the end before planting. After a dark start one or a couple of water changes a week should be fine, but only you'll be able to judge for sure.
> 
> You should be okay to start adding critters gradually pretty much straight away, but I always wait until I'm sure I've got the CO2 dialled in and there are no teething problems, and I'm completely sure I'm happy with the setup.


Amazing, thanks for the advice! Yes will definitely be doing a few extras in the first two weeks of planting to keep potential problems at a minimum, just would like to avoid daily. I've spent ages reading many of the journals here and advice threads and trying to work out what will make the tank successful from the start, and the dark start technique sounds so perfect. I'm also planning on buying a secondhand filter like the Biomaster 600 to go on the opposite side of the tank without media and just add more flow, since it seems like many of the problems in hightech tanks comes from insufficient and wonky flow.

Interesting that the animals can be added so soon! I was planning to wait a few weeks to let the tank get a bit grown in, and because as you said the CO2 needs to be perfected - I haven't done it before, and am a bit paranoid I might accidentally gas them all. I'm sure the plant growth will be interesting enough to keep me entertained for a little while, and it gives me a chance to really up the CO2 in the first few weeks.



Wookii said:


> As Amazonia puts out so much ammonia, it might be worth doing daily water changes early on (first week or so) if you can. Don't quote me, but I'm sure I read @dw1305 posted somewhere that high ammonia levels can have a negative affect on the growth of beneficial bacteria.


One thing I have an advantage over is that the filter is probably cycled already (or will be by the time I get around to properly scaping the tank) - the filter was filled with a good amount mature media from 3 different tanks (thanks again!) when I put the baby apistos in, and has been running for 7 weeks now. It's going to be at least a month before I give the babies to the shops (wish they would grow faster), so I think the filter should be relatively mature for the dark start, so at least with the Amazonia ammonia it won't be like starting completely from scratch. Really this is one of the reason why I want to do the dark start - not only to deal with the ammonia in the soil, but also to keep my filter going without having to set up the new scape immediately after giving the babies away.

I would like to avoid doing quite so many waterchanges at the start, I know that technically it's not huge amounts of water but it feels weirdly wasteful to me when I don't have the ability to drain it to the garden. 



Tim Harrison said:


> That's true but the ammonia spike should have been dealt with during a 2-3 week dark start. It's pretty much the reason for doing one in the first place. Adding critters slowly afterwards should give the filter time to mature in sync.


That's super promising! Dark starts sound so interesting, I'm tempted to not do the waterchanges during the dark start as suggested and can report the results, and just do 100% drain + few extra once is planted. 

How slowly do you recommend adding the fish, is one small group a week?


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## Tim Harrison

shangman said:


> Interesting that the animals can be added so soon!


The ammonia given off over 2-3 weeks of dark start will have cycled the filter sufficiently to slowly allow the introduction of critters. Although in reference to Darrel's link above, building up the optimum filter flora will take much longer, probably months. However, your filter will also contain mature media which will probably help.


shangman said:


> I'm tempted to not do the waterchanges during the dark start as suggested


No need to do water changes at all, it's part of the technique and a major draw for lazy folk like me 


shangman said:


> How slowly do you recommend adding the fish, is one small group a week?


Should be fine. As always just observe and use best judgment


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## Wookii

You can also clean out your existing filter @shangman, shaking the media in the water inside the canister, and use the resulting mulmy water to pour over your new soil to seed it before filling the tank up. It's what I intend to do on all future rescapes to try and mature the substrate faster.


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## shangman

Wookii said:


> You can also clean out your existing filter @shangman, shaking the media in the water inside the canister, and use the resulting mulmy water to pour over your new soil to seed it before filling the tank up. It's what I intend to do on all future rescapes to try and mature the substrate faster.


Fab idea, I'll def do that. There's lots of lovely stuff in that mulm, it makes the houseplants extremely happy! 

I'm moving a lot of plants from my other tanks to this will help as well, I have no idea if using new vs established plants makes a difference, but I feel like it probably does since they're all ready-submerged and don't need to convert to anything, and have big root systems. Anyone know if that's true ?



Tim Harrison said:


> The ammonia given off over 2-3 weeks of dark start will have cycled the filter sufficiently to slowly allow the introduction of critters. Although in reference to Darrel's link above, building up the optimum filter flora will take much longer, probably months. However, your filter will also contain mature media which will probably help.
> 
> No need to do water changes at all, it's part of the technique and a major draw for lazy folk like me
> 
> Should be fine. As always just observe and use best judgment


Well this is true, I only feel that my current tank became balanced after about 8 months or so. Everything just feels calmer and more serene somehow, so I'm putting it down to filter and plant maturity.

It's not laziness.... it's efficiency! 😂


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## shangman

I'm quite excited at the moment for the next two months. This week I'm picking up almost all the equipment I need (CO2, second filter, lily pipes & some other bits) from another local UKAPS member. This means that my new scape is so much closer!!

I went to Crowder's Aquatics about 2 weeks ago, and although they had an enormous selection of woods, I discovered that they were out of the wood I really like (riverwood). I didn't really know this was the wood I wanted until I saw everything and realised it wasn't there  However I did get a lovely archway-style piece which I'm hoping I can use with the future riverwood, and some beautiful spiky corbo catfish wood for my future pond tank (coming this autumn probably lol). I was also BLOWN AWAY by their selectio of botanicals - it was vast, and full of beautiful sculptural seedpods and leaves which I haven't seen anywhere else. Once the new scape is set up I'm definitely going to order some botanicals for it, though there were so many I'm not sure which yet.

So... I'm gonna go to Aquarium Gardens in the next 2 weeks as a lovely little trip, to try to get my wood. Or possible Riverwood Aquatics, but I think they take the same time to get to from where I live, so why not the OG & Sponsor! EXCITING

My fish babies are currently between 2 - 4cm, with a few extra big boys. One of the two biggest seems particuarly gregarious and doesn't swim away when I come up to the glass, so I think he will be Mr Apister Junior. I'm also planning on keeping the smallest fish which is just tiny, I'm not sure I can send them to the shop when they're so small, and luckily I think they are a female so shouldn't have too many problems.

I'm going to call up the LFS this week and see when I can give them the babies, even though they are a delight, I am getting a little impatient, I want a beautiful tank again!! My 60L is very wild and jungly right now as I'm letting the plants grow so I have as much as possible for the new scape, the babies tank is pretty basic and full of algae because it's temporary it makes me lazy, and the nano is looking rubbish because it's main feature is shoved in with the babies. I haven't really been able to just sit and watch and appreciate and I miss that.

Here are some photos of the babies because I feel it's a criminal to post a long text thread like this without some cute pics. The fish I think will be Mr Apisto Junior is on the right of this first pic, he's pretty hench compared to the others. Apologies for the glare, will remember to close my skylights first next time! 













Since I've been without a functioning proper tank I've been spending loads of time researching all sorts of aquarium stuff. I'm currently kinda obsessed with wabi kusa, I think the pond-style tank will use a lot of them to make up some of the riparium growth. I'm going to test it out in my nano tank as soon as I give away the babies. My plan is to only use excess plants from my new tank + 60L (moss, stem plants and hydrocotyle) so I can do it as cheaply as possible. Originally I planned for my nano to have emmersed growth, but never worked out how to get it to grow from the wood that's just under the surface, and now I know I can just plonk a nice wabi kusa ball down, I can't wait!

Below are some links to my fav wabi kusa/ pond tank kinda things I've found recently:





						WABI KUSA TUTORIAL
					

Moin Ihr Lieben!    Ich möchte Euch hier mein Tutorial zur Verfügung stellen, ich hoffe Ihr findet es nützlich und macht Euch sodann an Eure eigene Wabi Projekte. Ich wünsche Euch jetzt schon maximalen Erfolg dabei und viel Spaß beim Lesen...



					www.flowgrow.de
				











						Wabi-Kusa Shallow tank
					

Hi All,   A new project Wind in the willows   Shallow tank with Wabi-Kusa plants that I have been growing and adapting to emersed growth and room temp...




					glassboxgardeners.com
				











						Shrimpery (@shrimpery) • Instagram photos and videos
					

85K Followers, 827 Following, 1,314 Posts - See Instagram photos and videos from Shrimpery (@shrimpery)




					www.instagram.com
				




Also, does anyone want any of this lovely salvinia I have? Not sure what sp. it is, it's similar to cuculata, but less extreme, and the roots are nice and green, short and subtle, unlike cuculata which has big fat hairy brown roots which aren't as cute. I chuck my extra waterlettuce and frogbit every week, but this one is quite nice so thought I'd ask. Happy to send for price of postage if wanted


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## Hufsa

shangman said:


> Also, does anyone want any of this lovely salvinia I have? Not sure what sp. it is, it's similar to cuculata, but less extreme, and the roots are nice and green, short and subtle, unlike cuculata which has big fat hairy brown roots which aren't as cute. I chuck my extra waterlettuce and frogbit every week, but this one is quite nice so thought I'd ask. Happy to send for price of postage if wanted


I would have loved to take some had I only been in the UK  Id be really interested to find out what species that is though!
Ive never seen it before, it appears to be adifferent shade of green as well, and with that interesting white outline


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## Conort2

You’ve done a great job with the fry, they’re in great shape. Better than the stuff you see in the shops. Will you try and breed apistos again or have a break for now?

Cheers


----------



## shangman

Hufsa said:


> I would have loved to take some had I only been in the UK  Id be really interested to find out what species that is though!
> Ive never seen it before, it appears to be adifferent shade of green as well, and with that interesting white outline


Alas! It is very finely furry with white hairs that makes that outline. It's my favourite floater, it grows fast with no deficiency problems at all, it's pretty and 3D, it blocks a good amount of light but not too much, it has very fine greenish roots and makes a nicely thin layer. I really like mixing the floaters together, I have 4 together at the moment. Want to find some azolla and that amazing mimosa at some point!

When I next go to the LFS I'll ask them the name, though when I've asked them before they usually don't know 😂, might need to work out who the staff member is who orders them. They often have nice unusual floating plants, I've also bought proper giant frogbit and a cool flat grass-like floater from them, but I didn't know their actual names, and annoyingly they all died on me except for this one! I think they didn't like my rainwater, I might try again in tap as frogbit only grows for me in my tapwater nano tank. Probably should be fertilising more 😱



Conort2 said:


> You’ve done a great job with the fry, they’re in great shape. Better than the stuff you see in the shops. Will you try and breed apistos again or have a break for now?
> 
> Cheers


Thank you! To be honest as a newbie I don't really understand the scale of quality when it comes to fish, other than those which drop dead on you very quickly, and those who thrive. So far all the ones I've given away are doing well  I did try my absolute best to raise them healthily, and the babies are very perky with personalities, they play together all day and constantly change colours with their moods which can be very vibrant. 

It was a lot of effort, so I don't think I will try to breed my macmasteri properly again, to be honest was planning on getting a shoaling fish that would eat young babies so only a few would survive, if any! Though I guess it depends on the lfs, if they said they were popular and would happily take them again then maybe I would do it more often, I just worry about what happens to them and will they have good lives which is definitely questionable. That's why I gave them away for free to UKAPS members, I know they will live well with you guys. I also have no idea about the economics and goings on in a LFS, maybe it is annoying to get random groups of fish from people? 

However....  my LFS posted a video about 2 weeks ago and at the very end was a crazy crazy beautiful bright metallic blue apisto with neon orange fins (not the borellii though they are nice), and the female has a dramatic black stripe. I think they're agassizii, v intrigued by the different personalities too. But it all depends on whether they're there when I have a tank spare to put them in. I'm also planning on keeping dicrossus in my blackwater pond tank, but that won't be set up until later in the year. (just took off the video, it seems like they weirdly edited out everything but the borellii they have. Maybe everything else is sold out!)
lso the only pseudomugli rainbows in a great colour I can find are sold on eBay as eggs, so wondering if I can try to raise them myself. 🤔 Anyone do this?


----------



## Conort2

shangman said:


> Alas! It is very finely furry with white hairs that makes that outline. It's my favourite floater, it grows fast with no deficiency problems at all, it's pretty and 3D, it blocks a good amount of light but not too much, it has very fine greenish roots and makes a nicely thin layer. I really like mixing the floaters together, I have 4 together at the moment. Want to find some azolla and that amazing mimosa at some point!
> 
> When I next go to the LFS I'll ask them the name, though when I've asked them before they usually don't know 😂, might need to work out who the staff member is who orders them. They often have nice unusual floating plants, I've also bought proper giant frogbit and a cool flat grass-like floater from them, but I didn't know their actual names, and annoyingly they all died on me except for this one! I think they didn't like my rainwater, I might try again in tap as frogbit only grows for me in my tapwater nano tank. Probably should be fertilising more 😱
> 
> 
> Thank you! To be honest as a newbie I don't really understand the scale of quality when it comes to fish, other than those which drop dead on you very quickly, and those who thrive. So far all the ones I've given away are doing well  I did try my absolute best to raise them healthily, and the babies are very perky with personalities, they play together all day and constantly change colours with their moods which can be very vibrant.
> 
> It was a lot of effort, so I don't think I will try to breed my macmasteri properly again, to be honest was planning on getting a shoaling fish that would eat young babies so only a few would survive, if any! Though I guess it depends on the lfs, if they said they were popular and would happily take them again then maybe I would do it more often, I just worry about what happens to them and will they have good lives which is definitely questionable. That's why I gave them away for free to UKAPS members, I know they will live well with you guys. I also have no idea about the economics and goings on in a LFS, maybe it is annoying to get random groups of fish from people?
> 
> However....  my LFS posted a video about 2 weeks ago and at the very end was a crazy crazy beautiful bright metallic blue apisto with neon orange fins (not the borellii though they are nice), and the female has a dramatic black stripe. I think they're agassizii, v intrigued by the different personalities too. But it all depends on whether they're there when I have a tank spare to put them in. I'm also planning on keeping dicrossus in my blackwater pond tank, but that won't be set up until later in the year.
> 
> 
> 
> Also the only pseudomugli rainbows in a great colour I can find are sold on eBay as eggs, so wondering if I can try to raise them myself. 🤔 Anyone do this?



Would be worth a go with the psuedomugil. I purchased some luminatus a while back and the quality was horrific, seriously inbred fish which didn’t last long at all. You may have a much better chance in reading your own from fry.

cheers


----------



## shangman

Just called the LFS (Aquatic Design Center) and they said they'll take them happily already, and that 3cm is a great size. Apparently they sometimes order dwarf cichlids and get them at 1cm, so 3cm is more than enough, especially since they're getting their colours already. So great to know they are ready! But also, my babbbiesssss are leaving meeeeeeeee omg 😭😭



I guess this weekend will be the last time people can pick up some babies from me! I think everyone who wanted some on UKAPS and lives close already has some, but just in case... last chance! (unless you want to go to the shop and spend actual money on them lol). I think I might make a post about it in the for sale section, everyone likes to visit there 😂

I'm currently planning on just keeping 1 male and 1 female of the babies (mostly cos she's very small still only 1.5cm), as well as motherfish. I think that's enough apistos for a 180L tank, though I wish I could have a proper community like @Kogre ! Will have to go for that in a few years!! They have to be ok together in the 60L for a good month during the dark start and first growth weeks so shouldn't try to pack them in, though I'd love to keep 2 males 3 females, I'm not sure they'd be happy with that.



Conort2 said:


> Would be worth a go with the psuedomugil. I purchased some luminatus a while back and the quality was horrific, seriously inbred fish which didn’t last long at all. You may have a much better chance in reading your own from fry.
> 
> cheers


Will have to infitrate some rainbow forums to research, and ideally get some legit eggs (not sure if ordering on ebay will be the best way). I quite like the idea that most of the fish in this new scape could be raised by me. Maybe I should get into killis!


----------



## shangman

Last night I picked up everything I needed for the new tank except for hardscape and a bit of extra soil!! I bought it all secondhand from another user here who lives local to me, who very kindly explained everything to me too (going to have to get my head around an automatic doser and all of that 🤯). Once again I'm very grateful to UKAPS, I'm going to have the hightech setup I dreamed of for less than half the price as new, which is amazing because I really couldn't have afforded it otherwise. Gonna have to pimp out my stand to fit it all in!

The soil I was given was some used Amazonia which should still be good to use with some root tabs. It's 18.5kg. Does anyone know what a good amount of soil is to use in a 90x50cm (180l) tank, is there a general rule? I think I should get another bag just in case. I saw there is a powder type or a normal type, which is best to get for top dressing? The powder is more expensive, could I just get the normal version and... bash it a little?




I also got a few otos and about 8 -10 cardinals (they needed a home). I put the fish in my 60L tank with Motherfish, and she is not happy about the cardinals (there are already otos and she ignores them all) and has been charging and warning at them all morning, she's gone from completely beige to beige and black stripey. It's not very violent, but I'm a bit hmm and surprised since she doesn't have any babies to protect I thought she'd be chill. Should've remembered that she's not a chill fish! The cardinals are stunning though, what incredible colour they add. I'm also a bit worried about putting the 2 young apistos I'm keeping there with her once the rest of the babies go to the LFS new week, but there isn't really anywhere else for them to go. I've read that I need to change up the tank as it's her established territory, so they can recreate territores in a "new space", but I don't really know how to do this, as the whole tank is just plants, so I'd have to rip almost all of them out and replant a lot to change it up, which I don't really want to do as it would make a lot of mess - a lot of the plants are deeply rooted. I can add a big load of leaves (already have some floating at the top), but otherwise unsure! Ignore the state of the tank - I'm letting it grow wild so I can harvest more plants for the new scape when the time comes, and I've got it with lowerlight to make sure the hair algae I had is properly killed off (finally seem to have some success!)


----------



## Hufsa

shangman said:


> The soil I was given was some used Amazonia which should still be good to use with some root tabs. It's 18.5kg. Does anyone know what a good amount of soil is to use in a 90x50cm (180l) tank, is there a general rule? I think I should get another bag just in case. I saw there is a powder type or a normal type, which is best to get for top dressing? The powder is more expensive, could I just get the normal version and... bash it a little?


GreenAqua had a calculator, which I cannot find at the moment, but they do list this formula:

"How much General Plant Substrate should I buy?
It is relatively easy to calculate how much General Plant substrate will fit in your aquarium. Multiply the bottom area (width and depth - not height - centimeters) of the aquarium with the substrate height (a minimum of 4-5 centimeters), and divide it by one thousand. The result will show you how many liters of substrate you will need. Here is the formula:

Amount needed in liters = Width (cm) * Depth (cm) * Desired Substrate Height (cm) / 1000 (Excel calculator - download)
Example: a 60 x 35 cm base aquarium will need a minimum of 60*35*4/1000=8.4 liters of substrate, so you will buy one of the 9 liter bags."

This is for a flat substrate, while most scaped tanks bank/slope up the substrate towards the back to some degree. 
I would recommend this, it gives you more surface area of the substrate for planting and makes the tank look deeper.
You can fill the bottom back with some cheaper material like pebbles or lava rock and just cover the top of the slope with soil, that will be easier on the budget and seems quite common unless the aquascaper is sponsored (getting the soil for free). Then they seem to pile it in like its sold at the dollar store 
Just make sure you account for a deep enough layer of soil, I would go for no less than 5 cm to plant in personally but you can check what others use.
Not sure if youre planning on sand in front but the front of the substrate doesnt need to be very deep unless you are planning to plant heavily there, and then still you might get away with 3 cm or so.

Dont bash soil, I dont think it likes it and it may cause it to break down faster, this is just my theory though. Powder is best for top dressing because of the smaller grain size, it holds down small plants easier. You could do something like 3-4 cm of normal soil and then 1-2 cm of powder soil on top maybe?


----------



## Courtneybst

I love this tank so much, it feels so naturak.

+1 to what @Hufsa  said. I would defo top with powder. You might be ok with the regular but it really helps. I didn't go with a powder top in my nano and I regret it big time. I could add some but that's a faff.


----------



## shangman

Hufsa said:


> GreenAqua had a calculator, which I cannot find at the moment, but they do list this formula:
> 
> "How much General Plant Substrate should I buy?
> It is relatively easy to calculate how much General Plant substrate will fit in your aquarium. Multiply the bottom area (width and depth - not height - centimeters) of the aquarium with the substrate height (a minimum of 4-5 centimeters), and divide it by one thousand. The result will show you how many liters of substrate you will need. Here is the formula:
> 
> Amount needed in liters = Width (cm) * Depth (cm) * Desired Substrate Height (cm) / 1000 (Excel calculator - download)
> Example: a 60 x 35 cm base aquarium will need a minimum of 60*35*4/1000=8.4 liters of substrate, so you will buy one of the 9 liter bags."
> 
> This is for a flat substrate, while most scaped tanks bank/slope up the substrate towards the back to some degree.
> I would recommend this, it gives you more surface area of the substrate for planting and makes the tank look deeper.
> You can fill the bottom back with some cheaper material like pebbles or lava rock and just cover the top of the slope with soil, that will be easier on the budget and seems quite common unless the aquascaper is sponsored (getting the soil for free). Then they seem to pile it in like its sold at the dollar store
> Just make sure you account for a deep enough layer of soil, I would go for no less than 5 cm to plant in personally but you can check what others use.
> Not sure if youre planning on sand in front but the front of the substrate doesnt need to be very deep unless you are planning to plant heavily there, and then still you might get away with 3 cm or so.
> 
> Dont bash soil, I dont think it likes it and it may cause it to break down faster, this is just my theory though. Powder is best for top dressing because of the smaller grain size, it holds down small plants easier. You could do something like 3-4 cm of normal soil and then 1-2 cm of powder soil on top maybe?



Wow thank you so much @Hufsa ! That's absolutely perfect, just what I wanted.
90 x 50 x 8 / 1000 = 36 ... so with 25kg already, I need at least one more bag, with two being ideal (let's be honest, I need more than this and probably 2 bags, any extra can go in the next tank). I do really like the highbank look, so will do what you said and get some lava rock or something to fill up space! I am planning on using nice millenium rocks as well to get some drama with the height, I'm planning no having a very low sand area covering about 1/4 of the bottom (still planted a bit), with the rest all being planted with 1 very steep slow, and one more gradual but still high sloop. Aw man I need all the soil! This is what happens when you want stuff like the professionals who get everything for free!! I suppose they are doing their job well at getting me to buy this soil. 

Potentially crazy question... does anyone ever use organic topsoil (as I've used in my 60L) underneath aquasoil? It could go in a net bag so doesn't interact too much but roots could still get in. 



Courtneybst said:


> I love this tank so much, it feels so naturak.
> 
> +1 to what @Hufsa  said. I would defo top with powder. You might be ok with the regular but it really helps. I didn't go with a powder top in my nano and I regret it big time. I could add some but that's a faff.



Thank you!! I think it might look a little too "natural" right now, but since I'm having to overstock it with fish for the new scape, having it be jungly is very useful to keep them all happy. I do quite like just dropping a few leaves at the surface, before they sink it looks particularly real somehow, the leaves just give it that slightly abandoned natural look.

Of course you want me to get the one that's £20 more per bag! 😂 I will trust in your experience with it tho. Is it cos it's harder to plant small plants?


----------



## Kogre

That's a really impressive deal you managed to get.  I'm pretty excited to see what you come up with!

How big are the babies you have?  I watched about three babies get eaten when they ventured too far from their mother by other apisto's. -_-  That tank looks nice and densely planted though so they'll have plenty of hiding places.


----------



## shangman

Kogre said:


> That's a really impressive deal you managed to get.  I'm pretty excited to see what you come up with!
> 
> How big are the babies you have?  I watched about three babies get eaten when they ventured too far from their mother by other apisto's. -_-  That tank looks nice and densely planted though so they'll have plenty of hiding places.


Thanks! Fingers crossed it will be good, I think with every new page of this journal the stakes go up. Better not be rubbish! 😂

The "babies" are between 2 and 4cm, there's quite a big range between subadult big colourful males, and tiny little females, I had 36 before I started giving them away. My tank didn't have any predators except for the motherfish though, so no tasty treats for others. The male died 2 days before they came out, so she very possibly killed him for trying to eat some! The babies live in my 180L tank now, and their mother lives in the 60L, which they were born and grew up in, but when the biggest got to about 2.5cm I moved them because Motherfish was chasing them constantly and clearly wanted them gone. 

I know it sucks when they get eaten  Especially the first ones which are so easy to get attached to cos they're so cute and it's such a precious moment. I purposefully am keeping some fish that will eat babies now though, it's better that only a few grow up and can do so in the tank without lots and lots of effort on your part. I spent way to long raising this brood lol. And if you ever want to breed them properly, you can just get a spare breeding tank for it  

I think the way you keep them in a community is really interesting - when I've kept single apistos alone they always seem a bit bored to me. I know people consider them a fish for a pair or single, but I think a community like yours is probably more natural and stimulating for them, they are such intelligent curious fish they need to be kept on their toes lol. Keeping also the "babies" in the 180L together has been really fascinating to see how they interact, group together, and have little spats, I know it's partly because they haven't got their own big territories to lord over, but it seems like they enjoy each others company.


----------



## Kogre

I wholeheartedly agree, these fish are intelligent and almost immediately have social structures and pecking orders like other intelligent animals.  

Ultimately, I think I might be overstocked on males.  Realistically 1-3 should have been enough.  1 for the harem and the other for a bit of aggression release, with maybe another for diffusion of said aggression.  I have five, with one of them being a juvenile so still a ways to go before that one decides to dole out some revenge.  If you do end up doing something similar, I'd keep the males limited in number to roughly 1 to every 30-50cm of tank space, and break up lines of sight better than I have done.  I find them so fascinating to watch, I've found myself lose 30 minutes at a time just because something in the tank caught my attention...


----------



## shangman

Kogre said:


> I find them so fascinating to watch, I've found myself lose 30 minutes at a time just because something in the tank caught my attention...


That's how you know you've got a fabulous tank!! Apistos are basically the best fish for all the reasons you said, and you have the perfect tank community for them! Maybe add some more lines of sight though! Dried leaves! Leaves are like fish magic.

I gave one person 2 males for his large tank, and he found that the bigger one was always having a go at the other one and it was so harrassed I took the second one back (this fish maybe the one I pick for my tank, he's lovely). I think at least 3 to balance the aggression around is definitely a good idea, although in this tank it was only the 2 males, and there were no females, so perhaps having 2 females per male would do it! The problem for you I guess is.. if you have less, which to give away? A very hard decision!! I remember you said the smallest was your favourite lol. And they are simply so beautiful. How many females do you have compared to males?

I would love to keep 2 males and 4 females, but I think I may be asking the trouble. The difficulty is I've got nowhere to put them before they go in the big scape - whoever I keep has to go in the 60L while the big scale matures. If it were only juveniles it would be fine, but the 60L is Motherfish's territory and she does not like other fish!! The other option I have is to keep the young fish I want in the big tank for a week or two longer (while I buy hardscape and soil), and also put motherfish in there with them to get used to them and break her territorial aggression, and then they all back together in the 60L. Although she is a pain, and she is beige most of the time, she has so much personality and a great fry raiser so I try to do things that she's happy with. The intelligence of them is enough that it's so easy to get attached!


----------



## shangman

Just decided to try putting motherfish in with the babies cos I noticed some fin damage on the cardinals, and in not sure if they can't like that or not.

It's like putting the cats amoungst the pigeons!!! Seems like she's the Queen of any tank she goes in, after watching all her sons present themselves to her and her kinda interested but rejecting them, I shall name her... Cleopatra

Some of these babies are almost as big as she is (with a bit of puffing up)! And amazing colours starting to come through, this male is much more colourful irl with lots of baby blue iridescent highlights. Will post more pics later, they all started following her around in fascination.


----------



## shangman

Good morning!

Today I'm sorting out everything I bought last week, which involves 2 new filters - one is an Oase Biomaster 600, the other an Eheim Professional 4 600. My 180l currently has a single Oase Biomaster 600 on it, and as it will be a high-tech I want to add one of the filters I bought to it with no media in, to add even better flow. From all the threads I read here it seems like this can really help to get good co2 and nutrient distribution to avoid problems.
The other filter will go on my future lowtech 120l pond tank. Any idea which is best for which? My instinct is saying use the eheim on this tank for flow, but I'm not completely sure. 

I'm thinking of using inline co2 - does it matter which filter it goes on? The one with media or without?

I'm also wondering what the best placement is for the inlets/outlets now there are 2 filters, I'm sure there's a diagram somewhere but I've been searching and can't find anything. Not sure if they should both be on the same side at different corners, or on opposite sides and corners.

Ok... One last question - how have you guys pimped your cabinets to fit all this stuff? I feel like I need some drawers and hooks and things to get everything in and neat!

Later will post some more photos of the babies with motherfish, got some funny ones. Will also clean the tank well this weekend and get my boyfriend's cameras it to try to take some nice pics before they go next week.


----------



## Courtneybst

The powder recommendation is more about the roots but this is only really an issue for fine rooted plants like Monte Carlo and to some extent Hydrocotyle species. The other plants have been fine and none have floated up so it's just a matter of what plants you intend to use.

For the cabinet I haven't quite finished pimping it out haha but I use a magnetic knife rack to keep the tools and nets out of the way. Some hooks on the doors to keep microfibre cloths/towels. My middle section has a shelf but I'm thinking to get some plastic open containers (similar to what they sell at Muji) and fastening them to the walls so I have mini shelving for small bottles and food etc. I've also attached an 8 way extender onto the back wall of the cabinet which everything is plugged into, that massively saved on space. But honestly, there's never enough space lol.


----------



## shangman

Courtneybst said:


> The powder recommendation is more about the roots but this is only really an issue for fine rooted plants like Monte Carlo and to some extent Hydrocotyle species. The other plants have been fine and none have floated up so it's just a matter of what plants you intend to use.
> 
> For the cabinet I haven't quite finished pimping it out haha but I use a magnetic knife rack to keep the tools and nets out of the way. Some hooks on the doors to keep microfibre cloths/towels. My middle section has a shelf but I'm thinking to get some plastic open containers (similar to what they still at Muji) and fastening them to the walls so I have mini shelving for small bottles and food etc. I've also attached an 8 way extender onto the back wall of the cabinet which everything is plugged into, that massively saved on space. But honestly, there's never enough space lol.


I think I might get the 3L bag of powder for the front then, I know 100% what you mean.. hydrocotyle vert is SO ANNOYING the way it just floats constantly. Even in my lowtech where the plants are big and extensive, any gravel vaccing near them pulls them up. Was thinking of trying some monte carlo/cuba/tiny leafed things mixed in with grasses so I think will make life easier! I basically intend to use all the plants lmao, getting it down is so hard! 

Aha! Muji of course!! They have great cabinet-y little things, the ADA of mini storage lol. Was looking at ikea but their stuff doesn't quite have the right dimensions. And a magnetic knife rack... very fancy, will def try that too. There def isn't enough space!! I will I'll have to find an empty drawer somewhere for the less-used kit. Seem to have ended up with all sorts of stuff I don't use that much, but is occasionally very useful


----------



## ScaperJoe

Courtneybst said:


> I use a magnetic knife rack to keep the tools and nets out of the way.


Thanks @Courtneybst - you just gave me a solution - ordering one now


----------



## Courtneybst

ScaperJoe said:


> Thanks @Courtneybst - you just gave me a solution - ordering one now


For visual reference


----------



## ScaperJoe

That's ideal! Right now I have a large windowsill in my office just overflowing with tools, ferts, syringes, kitchen roll, fish food, measuring jugs, a turkey baster , flannels and nets. I just ordered a magnetic rack, some small floating shelves and a set of hooks - I'm going to tidy up this bomb site


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## Deano3

In my cabinet i purchased a load of tubs from b&m or anywhere really so have all ferts etc in one and all EI powders in one and tools etc makes much easier. Also stand filter in one incase any spillage.

Also purchased a stick on kitchen roll holder what is great from ebay 







Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk


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## Wookii

Same mag strip for me, but I cut it in half. Only have 60cm width to play with so space is at a premium!


----------



## shangman

Deano3 said:


> In my cabinet i purchased a load of tubs from b&m or anywhere really so have all ferts etc in one and all EI powders in one and tools etc makes much easier. Also stand filter in one incase any spillage.
> 
> Also purchased a stick on kitchen roll holder what is great from ebay //emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji16.png
> 
> //uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210508/d052bb45cf67657c504034dec28a5c88.jpg//uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210508/21c1a3716cf2351eae9f9be40d706afd.jpg
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk


That kitchen roll holder is PURE GENIUS 🤣
Magnetic tools on the left, kitchen roll  on the right! Definitely doing it




Wookii said:


> Same mag strip for me, but I cut it in half. Only have 60cm width to play with so space is at a premium!
> 
> View attachment 168395
> 
> View attachment 168396


Damn, look at that! Perfectly packed. Am now ALSO stealing this spice/bathroom rack, that's absolutely perfect! 

Are the bits mounted inside dosing stuff? That's the bit in really not sure how to fit perfectly inside the cabinet.

_______

Got the double filters going now. First I put lily pipes in the Oase for the first time and the flow as seemed to become a lot stronger! Is that normal? Before it just had the default attachment. Then set up the eheim which was A MASSIVE PAIN without double taps. Then I fed the fish and it got massively blown all over the place and then sucked straight into the other filter, I think I'm truly experiencing 10x flow!


----------



## Wookii

shangman said:


> Damn, look at that! Perfectly packed. Am now ALSO stealing this spice/bathroom rack, that's absolutely perfect!



It’s an OCD thing! 😂

It was difficult to find a rack just wide enough to be able to take the larger Seachem bottles, but no bigger, and narrow enough to fit on the small door. This is the only I got:

Amazon product




shangman said:


> Are the bits mounted inside dosing stuff? That's the bit in really not sure how to fit perfectly inside the cabinet.



Yeah, dosers up at the top, power points and Tapo switches bottom right, 20” CO2 reactor back left. My Versa dosers attach vertically so they’re easy, but the flat Jebao style dosers need a little shelf.



shangman said:


> Got the double filters going now. First I put lily pipes in the Oase for the first time and the flow as seemed to become a lot stronger! Is that normal? Before it just had the default attachment. Then set up the eheim which was A MASSIVE PAIN without double taps. Then I fed the fish and it got massively blown all over the place and then sucked straight into the other filter, I think I'm truly experiencing 10x flow!



I always turn the filters off when I feed. That’s where the Tapo plugs come in - you can turn them off from your phone, and set them on a timer to come back on automatically in 15-30 minutes or whatever.


----------



## shangman

Wookii said:


> It’s an OCD thing! 😂
> 
> It was difficult to find a rack just wide enough to be able to take the larger Seachem bottles, but no bigger, and narrow enough to fit on the small door. This is the only I got:
> 
> Amazon product
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, dosers up at the top, power points and Tapo switches bottom right, 20” CO2 reactor back left. My Versa dosers attach vertically so they’re easy, but the flat Jebao style dosers need a little shelf.
> 
> 
> 
> I always turn the filters off when I feed. That’s where the Tapo plugs come in - you can turn them off from your phone, and set them on a timer to come back on automatically in 15-30 minutes or whatever.



Omg there's so many good ideas in this comment 🥲. Thank you for the link I'm having that!

Those tapo plugs look amazing, will have to save up for some of them too, great for the filters especially!! 

How are you mounting things on the cabinet wall? I've never lived anywhere where I can attach stuff to walls so have no experience with it, is it hooks? Or was thinking of maybe using wide Velcro and proper glue cos I can get some good stuff from my friend at my studio, but that's probably not the best way lol.


----------



## Courtneybst

+1 for Tapo plugs! They're so easy and reliable. If you have an iPhone you can control it with Siri which I also do; "Hey Siri, turn on the lights".

Also if you don't want to mess around with glue, I use large size command strips. It uses residue free adhesive and velcro which is strong as they're designed to hold up artwork and things like that. I've used them literally all over my house.


----------



## Wookii

+1 for the command strips, that’s what I’ve used too, as I didn’t want any permanent glue or holes in the cabinet in case I want to change things around.


----------



## aec34

Hi @shangman, slight thread highjack, PM me if you prefer: how have you got on with the nymphaea lotus? Do you find it grows really fast, and what do you think moving it is going it be like?
I’m thinking about starting one off in a small cube before moving eventually to my new 60 litre in a couple of months, but worried it will get massive too soon.

PS I’m all about icecream tubs for storage


----------



## shangman

Courtneybst said:


> +1 for Tapo plugs! They're so easy and reliable. If you have an iPhone you can control it with Siri which I also do; "Hey Siri, turn on the lights".
> 
> Also if you don't want to mess around with glue, I use large size command strips. It uses residue free adhesive and velcro which is strong as they're designed to hold up artwork and things like that. I've used them literally all over my house.


This is awesome, just realised I can ue one of these plugs on my waterchange pump so I can turn it off from downstairs when refilling!! Sooooo useful omg. 

Thakn you for the command strip tip too, just went and got myself some. Really appreciate yours and everyone's advice on pimping the cabinet!



aec34 said:


> Hi @shangman, slight thread highjack, PM me if you prefer: how have you got on with the nymphaea lotus? Do you find it grows really fast, and what do you think moving it is going it be like?
> I’m thinking about starting one off in a small cube before moving eventually to my new 60 litre in a couple of months, but worried it will get massive too soon.
> 
> PS I’m all about icecream tubs for storage


Don't worry I love highjackings, really love how active this thread is and that so many people have input!

I find the lotus totally fine, it does grow vigorously sometimes, but it responds very well to being trimmed. At first it grew lots of lovely tightly-packed underwater leaves, then started growing floating leaves which were nice at first, but no light was getting through. By pruning them off regularly I got it to grow nice underwater leaves again. It's one of the fastests lowtech plants I've grown, but I think it depends on how nutritious the soil is, so you could add less ferts to get it to grow slowly, or add some root tabs to get it to grow really well on you. After 10 months mine grew a tiny baby plant, that currently only has very small leaves which I really like, though they're slowly getting bigger which each one. I remember reading from @zozo that lotus/waterlily growth depends a lot on the root stock it comes with - if it's small then it will take a lot longer to grow big luscious leaves, and sometimes the smaller variety is preferable! I am dreading moving it a bit because I've read that the roots get everywhere, I'm thinking I'll try to pull it, but if the whole sandbed moves, I'll leave it until all the fish and other plants have gone in first before disturbing it.

I think your plan is a good one, though it does grow fast enough that if you waited that would be fine too. I have it in a 60L and even though it's my feature plant, it's never got too big, even before pruning it.


----------



## aec34

shangman said:


> I think your plan is a good one, though it does grow fast enough that if you waited that would be fine too. I have it in a 60L and even though it's my feature plant, it's never got too big, even before pruning it.


Brill, thanks! I’m just getting really impatient for my new tank, but have to wait ‘til we have taken down and replaced a ceiling… Being a grown up is rubbish sometimes.


----------



## Wookii

aec34 said:


> Being a grown up is rubbish sometimes.



It’s awful isn’t it! I try and fight it at every opportunity, much to my wife’s dismay!


----------



## shangman

Wookii said:


> It’s awful isn’t it! I try and fight it at every opportunity, much to my wife’s dismay!


"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." _CS Lewis_


-----

Something so wonderful and magical is happening right now... I have FIVE kuhli loaches eating together in the front. I tried to take a photograph, but they were not fans of the phone so left them to it. I haven't seen so many since I first added them last summer! I think it's because of the cardinals acting as dither fish so they feel safe? Or maybe because the apistos are currently absent (though they disappeared long before I added any apistos). Either way, it's so lovely to see them all again! Even before this I'd decided I will keep them and put them in the new scape with a few extra buddies, this just makes me more happy about that  The otos seem to be coming out a little more too, now they're back to a group of 6.


----------



## shangman

I've been searching on this forum for a while, and I'm certain there must be a topic about it but I can't find it... What is the optimum placement of 2 filters with 2 lily pipes? I've just set the second one up and finally worked out how to get it to be quiet with no air, so want to solve the next problem! Incidentally the fish seem to really love the extra flow, which is even stronger as I replaced the Oase pipes with lilies which seems to have massive increased the flow vs the pipes it came with.

At the moment I have it like this, purely because of where the side holes are on the cabinet. I don't mind drilling new holes for better placement, I wondered if it's better to have them both on the same side, but honestly IDK. The filter on the bottom right is the "main" filter (Oase Biomaster 600) with filter media + skimmer inlet, the one on the top left is the secondary empty filter, just for flow (Eheim Pro4+). Excuse the terrible drawing my tablet is broken  Red is for inlet, blue is for lily outlet.






Also, should I go for inline CO2 rather than a diffuser? If so, which filter should it go in? Assuming the one with media, but not 100% sure.


----------



## Wookii

That's probably the best, and most typical layout to create a good circular flow, as long as you don't mind the equipment being visible in the front corner. 

I like to hide mine all away, so I'd likely go sub-optimum, and have the second filter in the rear corner, but with the outlet pointing towards the front to still try and create the circular flow, but that's just me. (Actually I wouldn't have a second filter, I'd have a stream pump there - which is exactly what I have got thinking about it lol).

You might want to have the Oase at the rear, and the empty Eheim at the front - it depend on your scape layout, but more detritus tends to collect at the rear if you have stems there etc, so its on that filter inlet that I'd want the pre-filter to trap that detritus.


----------



## shangman

Wookii said:


> That's probably the best, and most typical layout to create a good circular flow, as long as you don't mind the equipment being visible in the front corner.
> 
> I like to hide mine all away, so I'd likely go sub-optimum, and have the second filter in the rear corner, but with the outlet pointing towards the front to still try and create the circular flow, but that's just me. (Actually I wouldn't have a second filter, I'd have a stream pump there - which is exactly what I have got thinking about it lol).
> 
> You might want to have the Oase at the rear, and the empty Eheim at the front - it depend on your scape layout, but more detritus tends to collect at the rear if you have stems there etc, so its on that filter inlet that I'd want the pre-filter to trap that detritus.


Ahh ok yes you have had the same thoughts as me then, I was wondering whether both on one side in each corner was a better idea. TBH I got the second filter so it would be like a prettier powerhead, and also less likely to shred unsuspecting fish. I want great flow to avoid some of the CO2 problems at the jump, and maybe to get some higher flow fish later on!

V interesting the idea to swap them over I think I'll try that, that's also a good idea cos the skimmer is on the Oase at the front atm, and tbh it is an eyesore, and of course I'll def have some stems in the back so hopefully this will help!

Thank you for the advice!!! 😍


----------



## shangman

I took a few short videos today of the tank as I'm taking the babies to the shop on Friday and I want to record their magic a bit better, posted one below. Quality is complete rubbish, but you can see how lovely they are anyway!  Ignore the spiro, will be doing a big blackout after this to control it again  The aggressive one in the bottom corner coming out of the seedpod is motherfish, she's good to go but nobody is interested.


----------



## Wookii

Some amazing colours on those - and they've bulked up so quick!


----------



## shangman

Wookii said:


> Some amazing colours on those - and they've bulked up so quick!


Thank you!! They are lovely and fat, that's what happens when you feed them 2 frozen cubes a day! 😂 Plus weekly live foods of course, for nutrition (and extra sport).


Took some photos cos I realised that video is rather dodgy, so you can really see the colours!! This phone is rly annoying though, it keeps taking short videos instead of photos even on the camera-only setting so the photos end up not quite crisp. Very annoying, at some point I really want to learn + get the equipment to take proper nice photos. The less colourful little fish is a female, you can tell from the fins which are rounded rather than pointy, and that she is less colourful. The last image is motherfish in her seedpod, very colourful and ready to breed again, fingers crossed it doesn't happen before the new scape is set up!


----------



## Wookii

shangman said:


> Thank you!! They are lovely and fat, that's what happens when you feed them 2 frozen cubes a day! 😂 Plus weekly live foods of course, for nutrition (and extra sport).
> 
> 
> Took some photos cos I realised that video is rather dodgy, so you can really see the colours!! This phone is rly annoying though, it keeps taking short videos instead of photos even on the camera-only setting so the photos end up not quite crisp. Very annoying, at some point I really want to learn + get the equipment to take proper nice photos. The less colourful little fish is a female, you can tell from the fins which are rounded rather than pointy, and that she is less colourful. The last image is motherfish in her seedpod, very colourful and ready to breed again, fingers crossed it doesn't happen before the new scape is set up!
> 
> View attachment 168706
> View attachment 168707
> View attachment 168709
> View attachment 168710
> View attachment 168711​



Beautiful fish!

PS - If it's an iPhone, you need to turn off the 'Live' function.


----------



## shangman

Wookii said:


> Beautiful fish!
> 
> PS - If it's an iPhone, you need to turn off the 'Live' function.


Thanks @Wookii , your basically my question-answering Guru now!! 😍


----------



## Wookii

shangman said:


> Thanks @Wookii , your basically my question-answering Guru now!! 😍



Thats too much pressure 😂


----------



## Conort2

Lovely fish, you’ve done a great job with them. Doing better than people that have been doing this years, very impressive!


----------



## DTM61

Wow, stunning! 😍


----------



## EA James

Hey @shangman, thought I’d join in with some pics of my cabinet to see if they’ll help you with a few ideas!





These trays are stick on bathroom organisers from Amazon, knife rack 2 quid on eBay 





Kitchen roll holder a couple of quid on eBay, comes in super handy every WC 





This sections a bit messy but the little tray is from Wilkos I think 





This is the Kasa extension lead I was telling you about, so easy to use on the app from my phone. This controls the co2 and the 2 stock EA tubes





And that’s my QT tank that I’m slowly trying to use as a grow out tank for plants but it needs work!


----------



## shangman

Wookii said:


> Thats too much pressure 😂


Don't worry, it's more like a Council of  Elrond Advisers really. 😂 In this group there's always someone knows, it's kinda amazing.



Conort2 said:


> Lovely fish, you’ve done a great job with them. Doing better than people that have been doing this years, very impressive!


Thank you that's so kind ☺️❤️ I just do whatever I think will make them happy cos they're so cute I'm compelled to 😂



DTM61 said:


> Wow, stunning! 😍


Thanks! 



EA James said:


> Hey @shangman, thought I’d join in with some pics of my cabinet to see if they’ll help you with a few ideas!
> 
> View attachment 168721
> 
> These trays are stick on bathroom organisers from Amazon, knife rack 2 quid on eBay
> 
> View attachment 168722
> 
> Kitchen roll holder a couple of quid on eBay, comes in super handy every WC
> 
> View attachment 168723
> 
> This sections a bit messy but the little tray is from Wilkos I think
> 
> View attachment 168724
> 
> This is the Kasa extension lead I was telling you about, so easy to use on the app from my phone. This controls the co2 and the 2 stock EA tubes
> 
> View attachment 168725
> 
> And that’s my QT tank that I’m slowly trying to use as a grow out tank for plants but it needs work!


Omggg I totally forgot about that extension lead! It's reasonably priced, hooray!! That's perfect for the filters + CO2, thank you. After seeing all these kitchen roll holders I'm gonna have to take the plunge on that too, have been keeping one next to my computer and this way it'll look much less weird 😂 I love that you've managed to squeeze in a QT tank in there, that's genius


Absolutely loving all these cabinet photos, thank you all! I ended up getting a magnetic knife strip from Wilkos for £2.50 which was fabulous, still need to get the other stuff, but still working out what the actual configuration of everything will be with the filters (need to swap over after Wookii's advice), and get the second filter properly working because IT KEEPS GETTING FILLED WITH AIR ARGHHHHHH. Will work it out eventually lol, I do have a spare rubber ring thing for it to try next. 

Babies are being sent off tomorrow  Is a relief but I wish they were a small schooling fish so I could keep them all lol


----------



## shangman

Gave away the babies yesterday. Was a rather unromantic affair as the shop was super busy, but I explained to them which were males and which were females. They actually were exactly the right size, the same size as all the other apistos they had in the shop. My dad thought they were bigger and I had just been greedily hoarding them lol, MAYBE SO.

My 180L got turned upside down to catch them all, now it's having a blackout to get rid of the algae, and then the dark start begins!! OMG Can't believe this chapter is over and the new scape is in sight!!

In the end, I had 36 - gave away 8, kept 2 and then the shop got 26, which was a good mix of males and females. When Mr Apister died I actually cried, I loved that beautiful intelligent gentle fish, so when the fry appeared 2 days after it felt a bit like fate and that I must look after them in honour of him, though I thought I'd end up with only a handful. I've learnt so much from this experience, I loved looking after them, especially over the winter lockdown which was pretty grim otherwise, and thank you guys for all your advice and support too, which also made it all much more fun, I really love this community! Mr Apister truly lives on in the tanks of UKAPS members across Britain   I kept one of the loviliest males left, and a little female, who are doing well in my jungley 60L.

Here they are in their bags at the shop, ready to get in their new home. Good luck, little babies!!


----------



## shangman

Yesterday I ordered the last of the CO2 equipment and soil that I need!! So I'm getting reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal close to it all now, once the soil arrives I'll start the "dark start", and then we're just 3-4 weeks away from SCAPETIME.

So I have a question... what cheap material should I use to build up banks/height in the tank? I think I want to get some good height in some areas, and although I'll have 39litres of soil, I'm not sure that it will be enough to get height in all the right areas. I've seen different videos with different options, but would love to get your opinions on it! Ideally I want something that allows me to rescape the tank in the future with the same soil, so nothing that mixes in.


----------



## Kogre

Lava rock is probably the best material you could use to create raised banks as it'll end up housing a lot of bacteria within it too in the long run.

I have some spare if you like. You may need to smash up the rocks so they're smaller and can be put into filter bags which can be more malleable if that makes life easier for you, but I've got some sat around doing nothing.

What I have might not be enough for what you want, but I have a few kgs of the stuff you could put to use.

Hammer and chisel will easily break up the rocks.


----------



## shangman

Kogre said:


> Lava rock is probably the best material you could use to create raised banks as it'll end up housing a lot of bacteria within it too in the long run.
> 
> I have some spare if you like. You may need to smash up the rocks so they're smaller and can be put into filter bags which can be more malleable if that makes life easier for you, but I've got some sat around doing nothing.
> 
> What I have might not be enough for what you want, but I have a few kgs of the stuff you could put to use.
> 
> Hammer and chisel will easily break up the rocks.


That would be amazing!! Actually a v good idea as you said, it has all those nooks and crannies for bacteria too. I'm very happy to bash things up a bit to get them perfect. Will PM you


----------



## Wookii

shangman said:


> That would be amazing!! Actually a v good idea as you said, it has all those nooks and crannies for bacteria too. I'm very happy to bash things up a bit to get them perfect. Will PM you



If for whatever reason you injure your hammer arm, you can buy it precrushed:









						Aquarium Gravel Fish Tank Terrarium Substrate Plant Soil Volcanic Lava 5kg 3-5mm  | eBay
					

For years, Lava Rock has been regarded by many aquarium enthusiasts as the perfect decoration for aquariums. Lava Rocks in any aquarium will ensure a very good rooting, rapid growth, as well as an attractive and healthy appearance of plants.



					www.ebay.co.uk
				




As @Kogre says, put into mesh filter media bags, or I believe some people use old tights/stockings too.


----------



## Kogre

I'll be giving mine away, I think I have about 5kgs or more. I'd ordered 6kg but hardly used mine for gluing epiphytes to. But yes if this isn't enough feel free to order some from the link!


----------



## EA James

shangman said:


> what cheap material should I use to build up banks/height in the tank?


You could use alfagrog? A quick search says you can get 15kg for under 20 quid, put that in media bags and that should work well, Sainsburys sell little mesh bags for fruit and veg for about 30p that should be ok to use?? At a guess!


----------



## Conort2

EA James said:


> You could use alfagrog? A quick search says you can get 15kg for under 20 quid, put that in media bags and that should work well, Sainsburys sell little mesh bags for fruit and veg for about 30p that should be ok to use?? At a guess!


That’s what I used previously as i had some laying spare, I used filter media bags to contain it. Seems like it allowed decent flow through it was it wasn’t too smelly when ripped up a year or so later.

cheers


----------



## shangman

I honestly have NO idea what the quantities/volumes of these materials are, or how much I'll need! It's one of the weird bits of picking up this hobby during covid, but for all sorts of aquarium things I just have no idea, since every visit to the shops is as quick as possible with no exploring, and not having used these materials before too. Very thankful to @Kogre though, these lava rocks will form my base and I guess I'll see if it's enough and need more after, fingers crossed not lol! 

I did have a look at alfagrog, but I couldn't tell from the links I found how much I'd get, thankyou for checking. Will have a look at the sainsburys bags too, ages ago I went looking for media bags and they were really weirdly expensive so I bought some net and sewed some myself lol, but don't have any net left now! Am quite tempted by the stockings idea, I'm sure I have some friends with some old rubbish ones, I think the stretchiness will be good with the shaping.


----------



## EA James

@shangman I have lava rock in my tank and its quite sharp so be careful as it will scratch the glass very easily, I've seen people use plastic egg crate on the bottom to safe the glass and keep the rocks in place. 
I just searched alfagrog on ebay and looked at the first one, I think they would all be readily available so if you have the time you could just order up 1 bag at a time and see how you go with regards to quantities etc, if time is on your side you have the luxury of not rushing into it and wasting money.


----------



## shangman

I was thinking about getting some egg crate for parts of the base, just to keep everything in place easily, especially since I want to use some bigger rocks as part of the scape and putting bare rocks on the base gives me the heebie jeebies. Will be careful with the lava rock, though this tank is already quite scratched up from the previous owner, so I won't be that upset if there are a few, I don't want many more!! The alfagrog does look interesting, it's definitely a great backup plan if I need any extra building materials, and if the sizing is accurate it looks like the "nuggets" are a good size for glueing together into the perfect shape for steep areas.

I get the rest of my soil today, so this week can set up the dark start! Got a small bag of tropica powder (as well as the normal size ada amazonia), so planning on putting that in too, but in a wide low bowl or something so they don't mix. Fingers crossed that's ok! I know most people do a dark start with all their hardscape and everything done, but I think doing it first with just the soil and filter should be fine, since it's just about reducing the ammonia impact of the soil when first setting up the scape + retaining the filter's bacteria while I gather everything. Am hopefully going to Aquarium Gardens in the next 2 weeks, maybe attempting to make it a double trip to Riverwood Aquatics too. Has anyone been to both and has thoughts about their wood selections? Honestly I'm being really picky about the wood, I think it's really important to make that nice and sculptural.


----------



## Wookii

shangman said:


> Honestly I'm being really picky about the wood, I think it's really important to make that nice and sculptural.



It's an easy trap to fall into to be honest, and depends on what type of scape you think you'll be aiming for in the long run. I've pained and strained over the hardscape in my last couple of scapes, only to see it gradually and eventually disappear completely from view under the plants.

If you are aiming for a lightly planted, hardscape dominated layout, and plan to keep the plants well and hard trimmed back to keep it exposed at all times, then some decent looking pieces of wood and rock are good. However if you think it's more likely that the plants will dominate in the longer term, then base your choice on getting the right structural shape, and less about aesthetics of the individual pieces.

I know from my own perspective, on my forth coming rescape, I'm going to be caring a lot less about the hardscape detail, and more on just getting a convenient and balanced overall layout, knowing I likely won't see most of it in 4-5 months time.

Incidentally, if AG or Riverwood don't have quite what you are looking for, I've bought a lot of pieces from TM Aquatix on eBay. They are good value, and very helpful (and have pieces of wood individually photographed):









						TM Aquatix | eBay Stores
					





					www.ebay.co.uk
				




I recently bought a big box of black lava rock from them, and asked if they could curate what they sent so only pieces of around 100-200mm were included, and with rough and interesting non-uniform faces to the rock (a lot of lava rock can come out rather uniform in shape) - yeah, I know customer from hell! . Sure enough though they curated the entire boxful for me to suit, and almost all of the pieces look great:


----------



## shangman

Wookii said:


> It's an easy trap to fall into to be honest, and depends on what type of scape you think you'll be aiming for in the long run. I've pained and strained over the hardscape in my last couple of scapes, only to see it gradually and eventually disappear completely from view under the plants.
> 
> If you are aiming for a lightly planted, hardscape dominated layout, and plan to keep the plants well and hard trimmed back to keep it exposed at all times, then some decent looking pieces of wood and rock are good. However if you think it's more likely that the plants will dominate in the longer term, then base your choice on getting the right structural shape, and less about aesthetics of the individual pieces.
> 
> I know from my own perspective, on my forth coming rescape, I'm going to be caring a lot less about the hardscape detail, and more on just getting a convenient and balanced overall layout, knowing I likely won't see most of it in 4-5 months time.
> 
> Incidentally, if AG or Riverwood don't have quite what you are looking for, I've bought a lot of pieces from TM Aquatix on eBay. They are good value, and very helpful (and have pieces of wood individually photographed):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TM Aquatix | eBay Stores
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I recently bought a big box of black lava rock from them, and asked if they could curate what they sent so only pieces of around 100-200mm were included, and with rough and interesting non-uniform faces to the rock (a lot of lava rock can come out rather uniform in shape) - yeah, I know customer from hell! . Sure enough though they curated the entire boxful for me to suit, and almost all of the pieces look great:


I'm definitely not one of those hardscape-heavy people, I like the softness of plants, or in a blackwater, the softness of leaves, and I do want plaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaants to dominate, but just finding that right bit of structural gestural wood to form the base shape of the tank is so important and hard! Even if it's covered in plants, it's still gotta have a little somethingsomething to give that great shape. I think the important thing is I know it's not gonna be 1 perfect bit of wood, it's gonna be a few nice bits, glued and screwed (and just haphazardly balanced) together to make something cool. And that there is no "perfect" piece, just something nice and interesting. This tank is just another experiment... I'm trying to keep reminding myself this isn't the "perfect" tank in any way, it's just my first hightech, a whole new world to explore where it definitely won't be perfect, but as long as it's cute and the fish are happy then it's all good  It's nice to have you guy to remind me too! 😂

On the upside, I'm much less fussy about rocks as they are essentially vehicles for moss. I really like that lava rock, I think I want to try some in my nano tank or that future pond tank next, or maybe even this one, though I'm a bit worried about the kuhlis as ages ago I put in some cuttlefish bone to up the hardness a little for the shrimps and they ended up cutting tiny scratches all over from it.

Ordering stuff online is great and so useful, but like with the lava stone/alfagrog it's so hard to work out the scale!! I've seen lots of great stuff online at Riverwood Aquatics too but the scale of these things is soooo hard to imagine without it being in a tank of the same size as mine, I'm always worried I'll buy it and it'll come and be too small or big. I bought some weird ancient root from them expecting it to be not that big, and when it came it was massive!! Which actually was great, but you never know until you see it. Hopefully with experience it'll all make more sense to my little brain. Thankyou for the ebay link, will check them out, maybe they'll be happy for another picky customer 

I do like your focus on convenience, in my nano I didn't think about that at all and it's basically impossible to clean properly 😭 definitely will keep that one in mind more than I did before.


----------



## shangman

Wookii said:


> It's an easy trap to fall into to be honest, and depends on what type of scape you think you'll be aiming for in the long run. I've pained and strained over the hardscape in my last couple of scapes, only to see it gradually and eventually disappear completely from view under the plants.
> 
> If you are aiming for a lightly planted, hardscape dominated layout, and plan to keep the plants well and hard trimmed back to keep it exposed at all times, then some decent looking pieces of wood and rock are good. However if you think it's more likely that the plants will dominate in the longer term, then base your choice on getting the right structural shape, and less about aesthetics of the individual pieces.
> 
> I know from my own perspective, on my forth coming rescape, I'm going to be caring a lot less about the hardscape detail, and more on just getting a convenient and balanced overall layout, knowing I likely won't see most of it in 4-5 months time.
> 
> Incidentally, if AG or Riverwood don't have quite what you are looking for, I've bought a lot of pieces from TM Aquatix on eBay. They are good value, and very helpful (and have pieces of wood individually photographed):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TM Aquatix | eBay Stores
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I recently bought a big box of black lava rock from them, and asked if they could curate what they sent so only pieces of around 100-200mm were included, and with rough and interesting non-uniform faces to the rock (a lot of lava rock can come out rather uniform in shape) - yeah, I know customer from hell! . Sure enough though they curated the entire boxful for me to suit, and almost all of the pieces look great:
> 
> View attachment 168967


Also, do you have any favourite lava stone scapes? I'm kinda intrigued by using them as a main stone, it doesn't seem that common.


----------



## Wookii

shangman said:


> Also, do you have any favourite lava stone scapes? I'm kinda intrigued by using them as a main stone, it doesn't seem that common.



It’s not that common, no, I assume because it’s more difficult to find pieces with good texture and interesting shape.

But as you rightly said “I’m much less fussy about rocks as they’re essentially vehicles for moss”. I’d extend that to being a vehicle for any epiphyte, and lava rock in particular is much easier for plants to root to. Mine will be almost completely covered, so I’m not too fussy about them much either.

For me though going with lava rock was a choice to get an inert rock to be able to maintain a soft water tank. I failed this time around with my Kinabalu tank because I used loads of Seiryu stone. With CO2 injection pushing the pH down, it sheds loads of calcium carbonate constantly increasing the water hardness. I water change with pure un-mineralised RO, and my tank water still stays at around KH 8 and GH 12 regardless due to the CaCO3 in the stone. It was a schoolboy error on my part, but lesson learned for the rescape!

As for an inspiring scape using lava stone, you can check out @Geoffrey Rea’s rescape from this post onwards:

'New Decade, New Decadence...'
New Decade, New Decadence...


----------



## shangman

Wookii said:


> It’s not that common, no, I assume because it’s more difficult to find pieces with good texture and interesting shape.
> 
> But as you rightly said “I’m much less fussy about rocks as they’re essentially vehicles for moss”. I’d extend that to being a vehicle for any epiphyte, and lava rock in particular is much easier for plants to root to. Mine will be almost completely covered, so I’m not too fussy about them much either.
> 
> For me though going with lava rock was a choice to get an inert rock to be able to maintain a soft water tank. I failed this time around with my Kinabalu tank because I used loads of Seiryu stone. With CO2 injection pushing the pH down, it sheds loads of calcium carbonate constantly increasing the water hardness. I water change with pure un-mineralised RO, and my tank water still stays at around KH 8 and GH 12 regardless due to the CaCO3 in the stone. It was a schoolboy error on my part, but lesson learned for the rescape!
> 
> As for an inspiring scape using lava stone, you can check out @Geoffrey Rea’s rescape from this post onwards:
> 
> 'New Decade, New Decadence...'
> New Decade, New Decadence...


Haha I totally agree with you about the epiphytes with rocks... I originally typed "vehicles for moss and buce" but then edited it down 😂 honestly I can't wait to put soooo many plants together all mixed and rich together! 





I took a photo of a thick edge of wildflowers at our allotment, it's total 😍 vibes. + Some wood with moss and bolbitus + a sand area + mossy rocks. Done! 

That is actually so interesting about the seiryu stone! I did really like that, but I definitely don't want to make the water any harder, I'd like it softer if anything! Maybe I'll join you with a lavastone rock tank! 

Will take a look at that journal tonight 👀


----------



## shangman

I've got the temperature of the tank at 23 atm and I think that's probably the only reason everything isn't breeding like mad!!

Since I got the cardinals, I realised on the second day that about half of them (I think females as they are all the largest/fattest ones) had nipped fins, some quite extremely so. So I've been doing big 50% water changes twice a week to help with that healing, and added even more leaves. Since it's been raining so much it's been really easy (hallelujah for the RAIN! I've never been more obsessed with the weather since starting this hobby, I used to resent rain and more it pleases me immensely).

And secondly, there is sooooooooo much live food in all the water butts. Daphnia, seed things, little white hopper things, even a few blood worms! So they get a bit when I do a water change, and then a lot when I remember to bring my net. This is 2 swishes of the net from one butt in a large mayonnaise jar, I just had to brag!!







I've noticed some of the cardinals getting very fat a few days ago and doing some interesting flicking at eachother, and then the bellies went down again the day after. Haven't seen any fry, but with the amount of fish in this tank atm they would never get anywhere. These cardinals tbh aren't in great shape, not only were their fins quite nipped, half of them have slightly crooked spines. It doesn't look like neon tetra disease, I think maybe they were bred like this?
If they do breed is that fine? Will they be able to have healthy fry if I nurture them? Or is it just bad stock and will not help along.

The apistos have been wiggling at each other a lot, but nothing has really developed thankfully. That'd be a nightmare right now!


----------



## shangman

Ok just a small question tonight cos I'm feeling paranoid about it.

This afternoon I made some small wabi kusa balls, using at most a golf ball sized amount of the new ADA Amazonia in each. The soil is wrapped in sphagnum moss and then a letter of moss/pelia/hydro tripartita. I made 4, with 1 in each nano tank, and 2 in my 60L, half submerged with coated wire holding them to the side.

Will enough ammonia be given off by that small amount of soil to make me to need to do extra water changes? I do 2x 40% in 60L. 1x 50% in the 23l & 45l. They're all stocked mature tanks now with lots of plants.


----------



## Wookii

shangman said:


> Ok just a small question tonight cos I'm feeling paranoid about it.
> 
> This afternoon I made some small wabi kusa balls, using at most a golf ball sized amount of the new ADA Amazonia in each. The soil is wrapped in sphagnum moss and then a letter of moss/pelia/hydro tripartita. I made 4, with 1 in each nano tank, and 2 in my 60L, half submerged with coated wire holding them to the side.
> 
> Will enough ammonia be given off by that small amount of soil to make me to need to do extra water changes? I do 2x 40% in 60L. 1x 50% in the 23l & 45l. They're all stocked mature tanks now with lots of plants.



Could you not soak them in a jug for a few days, swapping the water out a couple of times a day, to get rid of the initial flush of ammonia?


----------



## shangman

Wookii said:


> Could you not soak them in a jug for a few days, swapping the water out a couple of times a day, to get rid of the initial flush of ammonia?


Sometimes I marvel at the obvious ideas I manage to completely miss! 😂 Good plan, will do. I did make extras that ended up in bowls, I guess the windowsill will just be a bit crowded for a week or so!

Fingers crossed they work, only done emersed things with new emersed-grown aquatic plants. If it does, we're one step closer to my rainwater pond tank too 😍


----------



## shangman

Another episode of Shangman's Apistos...

Things haven't been too bad in the 60L with 3 apistos. The tank is so full of plants (I've not been able to resist purchasing or swapping the occasional lovely plant from UKAPS members for the new tank 👀 ), that it's VERY jungley and overgrown, which since it's overstocked atm (3 apistos of varying sizes, 6 otos, 7 kuhlis, 10 cardinals) I'm quite happy about. Even though it's too many fish, the balance of different niches seems great, I've never seen the kuhlis more than now, they seem to love having cardinals around. I also did an experiment where I put a thin layer of playsand in the front to see if it changed behaviour, and it did! The kuhlis and apistos sift this sand a lot more than the usual, so I'm definitely using it in the new tank. The downside is that it doesn't look nearly as good with the plants, as it's light it shows up the gaps between plants a lot more and makes things look more leggy, but in the hightech hopefully that won't be a problem once the planting becomes dense. I also lowered the light a lot in the past few months, as I have had a lot of spirogyra, (spyrogira? I always get confused on that spelling) the only way I've found I can control it is by lowering the light, and having a lot of floating plants to block light even more. I





The dynamics of the apistos is evolving a lot, it'll be very interesting to see what it's like when the two small ones are bigger. Currently the male is "presenting" himself to both the females. Motherfish seems half interested, half not impressed and spends half her time chasing him away. Luckily, she never bites, she isn't violent but she just like to chase for a little while to remind them who's boss. I'm quite relieved there's bene no serious breeding attempts, which would really make things a bit much.

The little female is clearly interested in the male, but in a more innocent way. She's tiny, the size of the tetras, but is extremely cute. She has quite an irridescent face, which Motherfish doesn't have at all which I find quite intruiging, I wonder if it will go away when she's older or not. She also gets chased away from Motherfish when she comes to the front, and it's taken a week for me to get a good photo of her without her hiding away, but she's definitely getting bolder. She always has verticle stripes, which I think is a camoflage thing. Really looking forward to seeing what she's like in the new tank when she can have her own proper territory. Both the young ones are now bold enough to always come out at feeding time and eat without being chased which is great.









The male is very funny, he's sometimes bold, but mostly shy (he does try it on and get chased quite a lot). Something he seems to love to do is to wriggle/crawl around between plants to reach food, which looks ridiculous when he has such long majestic fins. He really needs more space to be able to swim around confidently like Mr Apister did, again can't wait to see him in the big tank fully scaped. His colours are less strong in this tank, without any brothers to compete against and having to hide a lot, but his irridescence is beautiful. He's still got a good bit of growing to do, I hope he ends up fully majestic! I vaguely remember reading somewhere that it's not until the males are fully grown that the colours get really strong.


----------



## shangman

Also, was just looking at different apistos thinking about what second pair I might get for my pond tank, and came across <this very loving article about Peter Clarke the apisto keeper and seller on Practical Fishkeeping> which I really enjoyed reading. It has everything you need to know about keeping apistos and helping them thrive in it, great stuff.


----------



## shangman

Just vacuumed all the sand and rubbish out of the 180 tank ready for the soil to go in for the dark start. WOW that SUCKED, what a tedious horrible job!!! I really, really need to get a pump so I can do waterchanges without buckets.

Found a few cull cherry shrimp were still alive and uneaten by the apistos in there, so I put them back in their main tank lol, they're colourless but I couldn't bring myself to flush them. They're survivors!!

Going to visit Aquarium Gardens and Riverwood Aquatics next week in an aquarium day extravaganza!! I WILL find my hardscape!! Really looking forward to it ))))))


----------



## Wookii




----------



## shangman

I've been working extra days in preparation! 😂


----------



## aec34

I went over to AG a few weeks back. It’s AMAZING. The tanks are breathtaking. Even the snails looked good 😉


----------



## EA James

shangman said:


> Going to visit Aquarium Gardens and Riverwood Aquatics next week in an aquarium day extravaganza!!


Jealous!!!!!!


----------



## Sdogg

Yeh AG is planted tank Nirvana


----------



## Conort2

shangman said:


> Also, was just looking at different apistos thinking about what second pair I might get for my pond tank, and came across <this very loving article about Peter Clarke the apisto keeper and seller on Practical Fishkeeping> which I really enjoyed reading. It has everything you need to know about keeping apistos and helping them thrive in it, great stuff.


I Hopefully might have something special available in the near future 👀👀👀 @shangman


----------



## shangman

aec34 said:


> I went over to AG a few weeks back. It’s AMAZING. The tanks are breathtaking. Even the snails looked good 😉





EA James said:


> Jealous!!!!!!





Sdogg said:


> Yeh AG is planted tank Nirvana



I'm sooooo EXCITED!!! I've never seen a proper aquascaped high-tech tank irl, I can't wait to see them in the flesh. I'm always confused about the scale of things online, and I'm quietly wondering if in co2 tanks everything grows massive and perhaps what I want to fit into the 180L will be way too much, so it'll be so good to really see that and appreciate it.

And fish are just so much better irl! Can't wait to see beautiful fish and plants all together, I hope they have apistos in one of their scapes, though that seems a little rare with the professionals. Was very annoyed by a green aqua video with apistos in the title, but hardly featured!

I love a good snail, even the tiny ones. Find it mad that people purposefully get rid of them. I bought a beautiful White Wizard Snail now named Gandalf (from Riverwood again they only had a few and couldn't make sure they would be there next week!) this week, absolutely love a posh snail, after discovering this one exists I've found even more interesting snails that aren't sold much.


----------



## shangman

Conort2 said:


> I Hopefully might have something special available in the near future 👀👀👀 @shangman


!!!!! INTERESTING... 👀👀

Is it apistos (I didn't know you kept them!), or... something stripy and red? 👀


----------



## Conort2

shangman said:


> !!!!! INTERESTING... 👀👀
> 
> Is it apistos (I didn't know you kept them!), or... something stripy and red? 👀


Will be apistos actually, apisotgramma lineata. Only picked them up this week but Had a issue with the male so waiting on a replacement before they get going. Will have them set up in their own breeding aquarium soon though. Same as the pencil fish. Sorry for hijacking the thread! I’ll start a journal once the new aquarium arrives this week.

cheers

Conor


----------



## Courtneybst

Conort2 said:


> Will be apistos actually, apisotgramma lineata. Only picked them up this week but Had a issue with the male so waiting on a replacement before they get going. Will have them set up in their own breeding aquarium soon though. Same as the pencil fish. Sorry for hijacking the thread! I’ll start a journal once the new aquarium arrives this week.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Conor


Lineatas are INSANE looking. That's very cool.


----------



## shangman

Conort2 said:


> Will be apistos actually, apisotgramma lineata. Only picked them up this week but Had a issue with the male so waiting on a replacement before they get going. Will have them set up in their own breeding aquarium soon though. Same as the pencil fish. Sorry for hijacking the thread! I’ll start a journal once the new aquarium arrives this week.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Conor


YES!!! They are on my list of lovely apistos!!! You have excellent taste in fish my friend. 😍 Can't wait to see the journal and how the breeding goes, get yourself some seedpods asap! Where did you source yours from? Looking online there's not much info on them, so your experiences with them will be even more interesting to read. Online implies that they only get around 3cm big, which is very cute!

No apologies needed, this journal would be much less interesting without everyone sharing their experiences and developments. 🙂 



Courtneybst said:


> Lineatas are INSANE looking. That's very cool.


Sounds like the time may soon come when you need to set up that rainwater tank!!


----------



## Kogre

I'm excited for you.  I've never visited either shop in person but know you'll have a great time picking out your hardscape.


----------



## shangman

Kogre said:


> I'm excited for you.  I've never visited either shop in person but know you'll have a great time picking out your hardscape.


Thanks Kogre, I think it'll be great fun, and whichever hardscape I get will proudly sit upon your lava rocks 

Probably going to use more lava rocks in the tank as the main rock, Ive decided it looks really nice (especially love that red one you sent), plus it doesn't increase hardness, and with how textured it is it'll be great for the epiphytes. Can't decide which colour though, looking forward to seeing this irl too. Might end up trying to buy some cheaper from the links that were posted earlier and see if it's similar to what they sell at the aquarium shops!


----------



## shangman

Poured all my soil in today, so the dark start has BEGUN.

Was just thinking about how it's been almost a year in the hobby, so went and found my initial excel sheet for testing kit results that I did at first, it turns out that I set up my first tank on June 19th last year. June 19th this year is 4 weeks and 2 days away, so I think I'll scape and plant this new one on that day (it's a Saturday so very useful). Feels poetic innit !!


----------



## shangman

Right gang, since I'm off shopping tomorrow I have one question... on Riverwood Aquatics Instagram (going there tomorrow along with Aquarium Gardens), they've got some videos of some lovely millennium wood, but when I search online there are reports that it's toxic? Or maybe you have to soak it for months and months? Does anyone have any experience with it, cos it is verrrrrrry beautiful, but also I want to scape everything within the month!


----------



## Hufsa

I would avoid it personally, seen several people have problems with it. The latest one I saw on youtube SerpaDesign, the wood never "cycled" and continued stinking up the tank indefinitely


----------



## shangman

Hufsa said:


> I would avoid it personally, seen several people have problems with it. The latest one I saw on youtube SerpaDesign, the wood never "cycled" and continued stinking up the tank indefinitely


Wow I just looked up the video about it and it does seem awful!! Will give it a miss for this tank... Might buy a little bit and soak it in a spare waterbutt and see what happens tho 👀


----------



## MichaelJ

shangman said:


> Another episode of Shangman's Apistos...


@shangman I just LOVE these low-tech overgrown jungle scapes! ... my favorite theme by far.


----------



## shangman

MichaelJ said:


> @shangman I just LOVE these low-tech overgrown jungle scapes! ... my favorite theme by far.


Thank you!! It looks even more jungley right now, I can't seem to stop buying lovely plants from other UKAPS members... It's absolutely packed! Luckily the trick to this style is to do just that 😂


----------



## shangman

Absolutely EXHAUSTED after my amazing day of aquarium shopping. Happy to say that I got the perfect piece of wood for the new tank, it's so sculptural (and massive). Too tired for pics rn, will post some this weekend (or tomorrow if I can't wait knowing me).

1000000% recommend going to Riverwood Aquatics, their wood selection is just fantastic, basically every piece was perfect, they had every type imaginable, and extremely well priced. And Aquarium Gardens was sooooo beautiful! Seeing that plant selection irl was amazing!! The tanks, WOW!! Picked up some lovely bits there too ))) Hardscape: DONE

Also had some lovely chats with the owners, it's so nice to talk to people irl about the hobby.

Now sleep 😴😴😴


----------



## shangman

10 pages in and we are finally starting to get somewhere...

About 2 days ago I read someone on UKAPS say that with scapes you need to go BOLD, and I thought that was great advice, so here we are!

Of course I couldn't wait to try the wood in the tank. As you can see it's too big atm, but I'm going to cut a bit off the right side so it does. Imagine it 95% underwater and a bit to the right. The angle might change too, once I can fit it in I'll play with that. I also bought some extra bits to make it look more rooty at the bottom, and a big horn-like bit with 4 different sized "horns" on it that I'm going to cut up and add where needed, I want to emphasise the right-to-left flow of the big piece with them, and they might stick out a bit too. I think I'll have to try to hang my light from the shelf above the tank now to get a bit more height. Ignore the soil and rock, that will all change when I actually set it all up. Can't wait to see the fish swimming through that hole in the middle ! !





Something I really loved was the bits of wood just emerging out of the tanks at Aquarium Gardens. They have moss and buces coming out and it looked so magical, so I want to have a few bits poking out to add a bit of that vibe. The buces were particularly amazing, there were loads of them flowering just above and below the water. Buce is beautiful in lowtech, but in a hightech WOW they are stunning, I want to grow quite a few on this hardscape. The buce along with the bolbitis add really great deep dark greens and blue-purples which add a lot of richness. Seeing those tanks, and the wood I have, I think I'm going to change up my plans for it a bit and take another look at the plant list. I still want to try a nice mix of stems, but I don't think they will be as much of a feature as I thought before, with a piece of wood like this I think a jungley vibe makes a lot of sense with lovely epiphytes. On a recent Green Aqua video I saw a plant called _Crepidomanes cf. "Malabaricum",_ which would be perfect, I wonder if anyone has any in the UK in their tanks, cos it only seems to be sold in the EU.

Also seeing all the lights and the different colours they brought out at Aquarium Gardens was so interesting. Was astonished at how vibrant the tank with the ADA light was! I'm hoping one day I can get that light (secondhand!), or a similar one (what are the Chihiros lights like??), the greens were very deep and a bit blue, and the ludiwigia super red was.... SUPER red, with a deep pink that was mesmerising.

At Aquarium Gardens I met @George Farmer and had a lovely chat about my aquariums and my philosophy behind what I like to make (especially as a fashion designer), when this tank is set up and looking good he's going to film my tanks for that UKAPS video series he posted about a little while ago. Since I joined the hobby during covid I've only been able to talk a little bit here and there to other enthusiasts irl about aquariums, so it was great to talk about it all. I think I need more irl aquarium friends, atm whenever I meet someone I just go on and on about it, whoops! 😂 My poor parents and boyfriend have unwittingly heard loads about the hobby since I joined, cos I just wanna talk aquariums 24/7...  Luckily my dad likes the hobby too (just took a few months of convincing), at AQ he bought the Aquarium Plant book by Christel which looks fantastic, it's got so much practical useful info.

IDK what it is about this hobby that makes me so obsessive, I'm glad you all are too otherwise I'd think I'd gone mad. 😅


----------



## Cait1

shangman said:


> My poor parents and boyfriend have unwittingly heard loads about the hobby since I joined, cos I just wanna talk aquariums 24/7


I’m seriously excited to get up every morning because my aquarium lights come on at 0700, so I totally get it! 😂
Can’t wait to see what you do with that piece of wood, it’s pretty awesome.


----------



## shangman

Cait1 said:


> I’m seriously excited to get up every morning because my aquarium lights come on at 0700, so I totally get it! 😂
> Can’t wait to see what you do with that piece of wood, it’s pretty awesome.


That's a great way to make sure you get up in the morning! 😂 It's the first thing I also have a peek at too, even when the lights are off there's always things happening. Will always remember fondly how exciting it was to look in the tnak one morning and discover motherfish was herding about all these tiny fry!!

I'm honestly SO pleased about the wood I got! Feel much more relaxed about the tank now, I can see it developing before my eyes. 😍

Was thinking recently that aquariums are like theatre - you make the set, you add the "actors" and watch the ensuing drama of their lives. It's why I love apistos so much, their personality is so funny. The past 2 days I've noticed a lot of mating behaviour from my 2 bigger apistos, including motherfish going orange and chasing every fish she sees away... I didn't want this yet! The tank is too crowded!!


----------



## shangman

I spent a bit of yesterday breaking up lava rocks, since all the ones I have are quite large. Luckily with a bolster, a hammer and an old towel wrapped around them, they break really easily and look great. Interestingly on the inside they're often black, so it's a nice mix of colours too, will post a few pics later. I'm really pleased with it 🙂 Might break a few into even smaller bits, I think it's good to have a big range of sizes to make it look really natural.

I have a question about hardscaping - I want to balance the wood in the tank to sit at a certain angle that looks best... but it doesn't want to sit at this angle and keeps falling down. I need to attach it to rocks or something to keep it in the right position, is there a best way to do this? I kept a few of the lava rocks bigger to do this, though they're quite light lol. Or was thinking could glue wood + rock to some egg crate to stabilise? What glue do people recommend for something like this?


----------



## Courtneybst

shangman said:


> I have a question about hardscaping - I want to balance the wood in the tank to sit at a certain angle that looks best... but it doesn't want to sit at this angle and keeps falling down. I need to attach it to rocks or something to keep it in the right position, is there a best way to do this? I kept a few of the lava rocks bigger to do this, though they're quite light lol. Or was thinking could glue wood + rock to some egg crate to stabilise? What glue do people recommend for something like this?


I had a similar problem with my wood as the angles I wanted didn't play nicely with physics lol. What I did was secure some sturdier pieces to large rocks with superglue and cigarette filters/filter floss. I then positioned the less stable parts and connected it at some point to the main structure so in the end everything was connected to each other in some way, either in a daisy chain or t directly to main part. But I guess it depends on your design and how close your pieces might be.


----------



## ScareCrow

As Courtneybst says super glue (make sure it's cyanoacrylate). I find gel is better for porous materials but I think liquid is recommended when using cigarette filters. Zip ties are another good option. I found that super glue didn't really work for thinner branches but there was little contact area, even with cigarette filters.


----------



## Michael1212

I had decent success drilling holes through my wood then threading zip ties through and attaching it to lava rocks. I did it this way to keep everything out of sight.  A problem i later faced though was some lava rocks blocking my planting.

I found it tricky to super glue wood to lava rock due to the porous nature of the rock.


----------



## shangman

Oh. My. God.

Was just watching the tank (cleaned the filter yesterday and today it's looking gorg, what a difference it makes so quickly!), and saw motherfish bright orange and black and being very agressive going in and out of her seedpod on the right. Haven't seen baby female for 2 days and assumed she was hiding because of motherfish being agressive. And then, out of nowhere, she appeared from a small seedpod on the other side of the tank, tiny and bright yellow and black herself and wiggled at Mister Apister Jr.! Omg... She's so tiny I didn't think this would happen. This weather  May have to put the smaller pair in the 45L if things start to get hairy... better get this big tank ready quickly. No wonder the male has been confidently swimming front and center the past few days!




Courtneybst said:


> I had a similar problem with my wood as the angles I wanted didn't play nicely with physics lol. What I did was secure some sturdier pieces to large rocks with superglue and cigarette filters/filter floss. I then positioned the less stable parts and connected it at some point to the main structure so in the end everything was connected to each other in some way, either in a daisy chain or t directly to main part. But I guess it depends on your design and how close your pieces might be.





ScareCrow said:


> As Courtneybst says super glue (make sure it's cyanoacrylate). I find gel is better for porous materials but I think liquid is recommended when using cigarette filters. Zip ties are another good option. I found that super glue didn't really work for thinner branches but there was little contact area, even with cigarette filters.





Michael1212 said:


> I had decent success drilling holes through my wood then threading zip ties through and attaching it to lava rocks. I did it this way to keep everything out of sight.  A problem i later faced though was some lava rocks blocking my planting.
> 
> I found it tricky to super glue wood to lava rock due to the porous nature of the rock.



Thanks for all these super useful tips! I think I'll try a combination of ALL of them, this wood is so heavy. Maybe drill + ziptie wood and rocks together + to some eggcrate to spread/balance the weight as much as possible. Thinking I might need to use one or two of my big heavy stones I used to scape the 60L with, the lava rock is just not that heavy. Will also get a good amount of both types of superglue, filters & floss too to reinforce it, and cos not only do I have to get the wood to balance, but also decided to be really extra and break my lava rocks into a range of smaller pieces so I can have more control and build some interesting structure with it! I want to try to do a scape where the soil + sand are kept apart properly with the lava rocks,.

What a job, really excited and can't wait tbh. If I wasn't so busy with work rn I'd do the hardscape tomorrow!! I've been watching so so so many making-of aquascape videos while planning this tank, I can't wait to try it myself properly this time.


----------



## shangman

Even though this tank is filled with spirogyra (and my buces started to melt so have been moved), it still looks rather nice atm  (or at least does irl, the camera doesn't pick up the lighting and colours well at all)















​Starting to make a plant list for the new tank now I have the wood I cna imagine it a bit better, the vibe of the tank is going to be _rich tropical lusciousness_ - big richly coloured, patterned and shaped leaves, amongst mosses and tiny grasses (love a mixed carpet). I want a rich dark green as the main colour, using hints of reds, blues and purples to add variety. So will be using a variety of buces, maybe a coffeefolia anubias, and I think a few interesting echinodorus with rich reds and greens in there (saw that amazing echinodorus rubra for sale and thought... ooooh, though I think it's too big for the tank as it is!). Also want some stems, particularly a nice bush of blood red/red ludiwigias, but not sure past that. Will 100% have leaves and seedpods littering in the sand, and the lava stone will hopefully be covered in moss! Not sure which moss to use though, what do you guys think?

There's a lovely ADA echinodorus tank, but other than that I haven't seen many hightechs with them in, does anyone have any suggestions for inspiration?


----------



## Wookii

shangman said:


> There's a lovely ADA echinodorus tank, but other than that I haven't seen many hightechs with them in, does anyone have any suggestions for inspiration?



The Tropica website is often a good source - just look up the particular plant species you're interested in, and they usually show scapes that include it:

https://tropica.com/en/plants/plantdetails/Echinodorusgrisebachii'Bleherae'(071)/4512


----------



## shangman

Wookii said:


> The Tropica website is often a good source - just look up the particular plant species your interested in, and they usually show scapes that include it:
> 
> https://tropica.com/en/plants/plantdetails/Echinodorusgrisebachii'Bleherae'(071)/4512


Aha I forgot about that site, that's perfect thanks


----------



## ScareCrow

shangman said:


> There's a lovely ADA echinodorus tank, but other than that I haven't seen many hightechs with them in, does anyone have any suggestions for inspiration?


Flowgrow also has loads of information and sometimes has scapes with the plant you searched in.


shangman said:


> Not sure which moss to use though, what do you guys think?


I'd go with a mixture. I currently like the combination of _Fissidens fontanus, _mini xmas moss and _Leptodictyum Riparium. _The Fissidens and mini xmas have nice contrasting leaf shapes and the L.riparium adds height.


----------



## shangman

ScareCrow said:


> Flowgrow also has loads of information and sometimes has scapes with the plant you searched in.
> 
> I'd go with a mixture. I currently like the combination of _Fissidens fontanus, _mini xmas moss and _Leptodictyum Riparium. _The Fissidens and mini xmas have nice contrasting leaf shapes and the L.riparium adds height.


Ahh Flowgrow looks awesome, that's another lovely night's aquatic reading sorted!!

I think a mix is the right too. I think fissidens, Christmas Moss & ricardia... This was the mix I tried in my lowtech, but the fissidens really took over, and the ricardia has hardly grown so would be great to see how things are different in thsi one. I also have a bit of cameroon moss that's never done much which I'm intrigued to try in a hightech. Also would LOVE to get my hands on some Crepidomanes cf. "Malabaricum", and some afro moss, but we'll see if that's even possible to find now!


----------



## Sdogg

Looking good, keep up the good work


----------



## shangman

Ok conundrum for the day... What pond pump should I buy to do my waterchanges?

I watched a video about doing the waterchanges with a pump, and they suggested the Oase OptiMax 1000 Pump. However, I noticed the max head height was 1.3m. My aquarium is in my room on the top floor, where there are no taps, so the water has to be pumped from the second floor - down the staircase and through the hall so a good few metres (will check tomorrow). The height between the two floors is 3.2m, plus to get into the tank add another 1.4m to make 4.5! Does anyone have any advice about what pump could work for this? Have been feeling generally hmmm about how to do waterchanges, now I feel like the anxiety was more justified. Really hoping I don't have to spend shedloads on a water changing pump !


----------



## Conort2

shangman said:


> Ok conundrum for the day... What pond pump should I buy to do my waterchanges?
> 
> I watched a video about doing the waterchanges with a pump, and they suggested the Oase OptiMax 1000 Pump. However, I noticed the max head height was 1.3m. My aquarium is in my room on the top floor, where there are no taps, so the water has to be pumped from the second floor - down the staircase and through the hall so a good few metres (will check tomorrow). The height between the two floors is 3.2m, plus to get into the tank add another 1.4m to make 4.5! Does anyone have any advice about what pump could work for this? Have been feeling generally hmmm about how to do waterchanges, now I feel like the anxiety was more justified. Really hoping I don't have to spend shedloads on a water changing pump !


I think I spent about a 10/15 quid on mine, got a cheap chinese one from Amazon and it’s worked fine for years, it’s noisy but it doesn’t matter as it’s only used for water changes.

cheers


----------



## Courtneybst

Just curious about the pump actually, are you not able to just use a hose and tap connector?

I use a 20ft hose to drain my water into the toilet (nearest waste point) and then connect it to the kitchen sink to refill the tank.


----------



## ScareCrow

I've not had to do it but I'd look at submersible drainage pumps. They tend to be pretty robust, cheap and are intended to move water vertically. A lot of them have a float switch too, which might be handy to avoid it running dry if you can't see your water change tank/barrel. As you've found not all (pond) pumps are designed to 'lift' water, some are more flow oriented.
Something that interests me is ram pumps. It would probably be too much faff to make one for this but I'd like to try adding one to a pump one day to see what if anything would happen.


----------



## shangman

Conort2 said:


> I think I spent about a 10/15 quid on mine, got a cheap chinese one from Amazon and it’s worked fine for years, it’s noisy but it doesn’t matter as it’s only used for water changes.
> 
> cheers


Yeah noise is fine, since it'll only be used for 30 mins or so each weekend. How far/high do you pump yours?



Courtneybst said:


> Just curious about the pump actually, are you not able to just use a hose and tap connector?
> 
> I use a 20ft hose to drain my water into the toilet (nearest waste point) and then connect it to the kitchen sink to refill the tank.


I can just use a hose for siphoning out, since gravity is on my side there, but it's about going up that's the problem. If it was going across only I wouldn't bethinking about it, but since it's 4.5m up it seems a bit more hmm. I have a garden hose already to use.

I can't just use the hose because I have to pump 50% rainwater and 50% tap up, so I want to be able to run the water into a bucket in the shower (so I can also control temp really easily), and pour rainwater into the bucket too/at the same time, and use the pump to get it all up.

Also, our taps are all rubbish and slightly weird shapes for some reason, though hopefully am getting a new kitchen tap soon so maybe that will make things easier, but I'm sure it'll be some modern tube thing.



ScareCrow said:


> I've not had to do it but I'd look at submersible drainage pumps. They tend to be pretty robust, cheap and are intended to move water vertically. A lot of them have a float switch too, which might be handy to avoid it running dry if you can't see your water change tank/barrel. As you've found not all (pond) pumps are designed to 'lift' water, some are more flow oriented.
> Something that interests me is ram pumps. It would probably be too much faff to make one for this but I'd like to try adding one to a pump one day to see what if anything would happen.


Ahh this is a great suggestion thank you, I'll look into this type. It def seems like verticality is not something that usually has to be considered, almost none of the pond pumps I've found can get water above 1.3m, so this looks v interesting. I want to try to get something as simple as possible tbh, already feeling somewhat overwhelmed by setting everything up and using all the new systems!


----------



## Wookii

Yeah, as @ScareCrow says you need a drainage/puddle pump to get 4.5m head height. They’re not cheap though, starting at about 40 quid:

Amazon product


----------



## shangman

Wookii said:


> Yeah, as @ScareCrow says you need a drainage/puddle pump to get 4.5m head height. They’re not cheap though, starting at about 40 quid:
> 
> Amazon product



Thanks v much for the link!! They are more expensive, but when I first googled everything looked like it would be £150+ so finding smaller cheaper ones like your link makes me think it's not too bad. 100% worth it, 50% of the tank is 10 buckets, which I do not enjoy hauling up and down the stairs! Very relieved that there's a bit of machinery for exactly this kind of thing really


----------



## shangman

RIGHT bought all the last bits I need to do the hardscape!! Since it's going to rain all this weekend, I think it's the perfect time to get started. Decided that I'm gonna do the hardscape first before ordering any plants. I think it could easily take 2 days, so I can really work out the rough scape I want on one day, and then slowly glue everything together and do it on the second. Then I get another 100% waterchange in which is never a bad thing - and can really test my new waterchange pump and tubing, which will def need some sort of adaptation to hook it on the end!.


----------



## shangman

Well guys, the hardscape is pretty much done, and I am tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiireeeeeeeeeeeeedddddddddddddddddddddddd. WOW it was completely exhausting.

I'm really pleased with the results though!! I think it's a good first try  I ended up having way too much soil, and not quite enough nice little bits of pointy riverwood (that bit on the right with the obvious glue will have one of these coming from it), but that can be added in the next few days. Definitely it will get more "rooty" around the sand area, and also in the sand there will be some rocks with buce and moss that I can move about, in case apisto territories ever require it.

Tomorrow I'm going to fill the tank up again, and then suck up all the rogue soil in the sand area, and add the sand. And of course make all sorts of changes I'm sure lol

Please excuse the dirty glass, I am too dead to do any more.


----------



## EA James

hey @shangman anymore updates? I haven't been on here much lately I've been really busy but I always come and have a look at the thread to see how you're getting on!

Hope all is well


----------



## shangman

EA James said:


> hey @shangman anymore updates? I haven't been on here much lately I've been really busy but I always come and have a look at the thread to see how you're getting on!
> 
> Hope all is well


Thank you for asking and thinking of me, I have a happy update and a sad update....

I'm doing the planting right now, and it's looking pretty awesome, will post up some pics when I'm done (I'm very slow and need several more hours). I've added lots of twig bits so it looks more natural and cool now, and definitely bought enough plants. My final plants won't come until next week, but it's already quite full.

On a big downside, I was pulling some plants out of my 60L and realised that motherfish hadn't come out to investigate what was going on, and she wasn't hiding in her seedpod any more. Then searched around and found her dried up behind the filter  I guess she jumped, I didn't expect an apisto to jump!! They hardly even go to the surface. No wonder the tank's been quieter the past 2 days. RIP lovely motherfish, she was glorious, with such a big personality.

At the same time, the young female is hiding in the seedpod she was born in, I think with eggs. She's been chasing off any fish that go close, but she's not at all viscious or anything. Maybe it is related, though usually motherfish was the one chasing her around.


----------



## shangman

I managed to see sneak a flash photo of the seedpod and daughterfish (she was quite offended), you can see a blurry pink-ish ring of dots on the ceiling inside the seedpod there are some pink eggs. Not sure if they are fertilised or not, I guess time will tell.


----------



## Cait1

Sorry to hear about your jumper! So sad. ☹️


----------



## EA James

That's a shame @shangman, and like you say, strange as their rarely half way up the tank let alone at the surface.

Really looking forward to seeing some updates, that wood is epic!!


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


shangman said:


> She's been chasing off any fish that go close, but she's not at all viscious or anything. Maybe it is related, though usually motherfish was the one chasing her around.


Sorry for your loss, I'm pretty sure that is the reason.

cheers Darrel


----------



## shangman

Thank you all for the condolences, idk I know they're "just fish" (which is what my family says everytime something happens and I get sad about it), but they are also great with personalities and eyes that look right back at you, I am pretty bummed out about this one. She was very interactive and chill with me, she never ran away from the glass when I came to look, she'd just wiggle to ask for food. When I had to move her I could literally scoop her up in my hand. Really I was making this bigger tank for her, she was the one that convinced me to get it so she could roam about more and have a proper territory, I'm sad she won't get to swim about in it. Extra glad I have a pair of her offspring, they are still small and a little shy, but very cute, this will give them more space to thrive and be confident though, the male has been flitting around more confidently the past few days, he is so beautiful with really long flowing fins.



dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Sorry for your loss, I'm pretty sure that is the reason.
> 
> cheers Darrel



It does seem like every time there's eggs, an apisto dies semi-randomly, I assume it's from the extra stress of it or something. Mr Apisto died just when the eggs hatched last time too, though I still suspect it was too many bloodworms that did it that time. Hopefully the bigger tank will help (and the lesss acidic water so they won't breed as much). Earlier in the week I did a blackout as I had a lot of spiro and wanted to get rid of most of it so I could move plants to the new tank less afflicted, maybe she got spooked when I took the plastic off and they saw the light again.

I spent the rest of yesterday in a rather bad mood and got a bit slapdash, so there's more glue on the wood than their should be from when I added the moss. This morning I've already moved some plants and things around a bit cos they weren't right. I'm ordering some more buce and moss to go on the wood, which I think needs some more coverage to get it to how I want (covered). I realised when I finished I made a classic mistake of placing the plants to how things looked where I was standing, rather than sitting down in front of the tank, so the top of the wood is much more covered than the sides. It looks a bit messy and bitty atm, but I was trying to envisage everything when it's grown in in a few months. A few plants also still haven't arrived, including bolbitis so it'll be good to get the last of it.

Managed to break a tiny rubber ring on my CO2 inline diffuser, so gotta wait for a replacement before that happens, bad timing hooray! Will be putting shedloads of liquid carbon in every day until that comes, hopefully in the next 2-3 days. 

Despite all that criticism, I think it's looking pretty cute and promising though  Fingers crossed things grow in well!




While it's growing in, I'm going to paint the cabinet with an aquatic theme. We don't really have any minimalist furniture in our house, so I want to transform the cabinet to be more decorative. I haven't painted in ages so we'll see how that goes lol, but I painted a lot of cute birds in our kitchen so hopefully I can do the same with fish


----------



## ScareCrow

Sorry to hear about your loss.
On a more positive note the tank is looking great.


----------



## shangman

ScareCrow said:


> Sorry to hear about your loss.
> On a more positive note the tank is looking great.


Thank you!!!

I have been rather quiet since setting up the tank, as things keep going wrong and stressing me out!! The day after I set up the tank I set up the CO2, and managed to damage a tiny silicon O-ring which meant gas could leak out of the diffuser. Luckily CO2Art have really amazing customer service and sent 2 out to me asap for free from Germany, though it took a week to arrive (thanks again Brexit). The tank was without CO2 for the first week, so I've been dosing it with liquid carbon every day and just praying nothing melts before the CO2 arrived. So far things look ok, the stem plants are particularly perky.

The other annoying thing that plagued me is that the horn-like bit of wood on the right side kept falling down, it seems like filters+glue + wet wood = nope, so we ended up screwing the wood to lava rock with gigantic screws. It turns out not only can you drill lava rock, you can also saw it too so now things are all in place and not likely to fall down again!! The right side now looks really rubbish but hopefully the planting will cover all my sins in good time  Definitely going to need a few more plants for the right side, I think some mosses and extra bolbitis, and maybe some monte carlo. Would like to wait for some thing to be available on here though, when some of the pots I ordered arrived the portions were soooo small, I've been spoilt by the home-grown plants here! On the upside, I've now 100% drained the tank 4 times while working on the horn, which I'm sure will help get rid of any ammonia that was left after the dark start, and helped me add some more plants and mosses to the wood which I've been pilfering from other tanks. And my water changing system works fabulously with my submersible pump and a garden hose, Hallelujah.

On Saturday the CO2 ring arrived and I installed it and... nothing, still didn't seem to work. Luckily I live really close to @Courtneybst who very kindly came to have a look and make sure things were working right, which after a final check of every part now works!!! Hooray! And he gave me a spare dropchecker he had too, as mine was showing green even before the CO2 system went on which was rather odd. It's lovely to make friends with my fellow aquarists and meet irl, here's hoping I get to meet more of you in the future! It was also relaly nice to show off my tanks irl more, it made me realise I should share some other bits of the setups that I don't usually that you might like. 

SO... we may now finally be on track, fingers crossed! I'm still monitoring and adjusting the CO2 to go yellow for the first few weeks. WOW this tank has been a steep learning curve so far, honestly doing a tank this size is suuuuuchhhh a big stepup from the 60L... I'm looking forward to all this work paying off soon (and/or anticipating shedloads of algae too, to continue the saga of many things going wrong).


----------



## Courtneybst

I'm really liking how this scape is coming along and very glad I could help! I hope that suction cup keeps sticking!

Also @shangman 's scapes in pictures are great of course but in person they are truly something. You've created such good depth in this latest scape, I can't wait to see it all grown in.


----------



## shangman

Courtneybst said:


> I'm really liking how this scape is coming along and very glad I could help! I hope that suction cup keeps sticking!
> 
> Also @shangman 's scapes in pictures are great of course but in person they are truly something. You've created such good depth in this latest scape, I can't wait to see it all grown in.


So far all good. Honestly so much less stressed now the co2 is working, can't wait to really start to see the effects on growth over the next few days and weeks.. and months! 😁

That's very kind to say, thank you!! My next step is def to try and take better photos so I can show off the depth and colours much better, trying out an old DSLR this weekend... Would love to get it all looking gorgeous like your photos and tanks do and so many others here too. There's always a new challenge in aquascaping!!


----------



## shangman

Starting to 👀👀👀 into the tank every day now, and today I've noticed a lot more little sproutings all over, I'm particularly happy with some sad buce rhizomes I had in my nano tank which did nothingfor months, already they have lots of little shoots all over them!

On the other hand, I already have diatoms. Now I can't quite remember... is this a problem? Do I need to do anything? I'm happy to do extra mid-week 50% water changes if that helps, but maybe it's just a phase not to worry about. The other option is that I have amanos, cherries and otos in my other tanks, but I wasn't planning on adding any animals for 2 weeks. What do you guys think?

Mixing together my ferts today, have been using TNC Complete but I think it's time to level up on that too


----------



## shangman

uuuuuuuuhhhhh....

I appear to be an apisto grandmother!


----------



## shangman

A little photo update on this tank!

I added some more little twigs for extra detail all over, they're a pain to place but I thikn I've wedged them well, they really add a lot of character to the tank. I also culled my nano tank as there are all sorts in there, I've added the 4 nice black shrimp to this tank and they are alive and eating and swimming ok, I'm going to add some more of this colour, they look rather fabulous, and I'm hoping they'll be less likely to be eaten and find it easier to hide than the brightly coloured ones. They were a little test to see if animals can live in the tank yet, as I'm wary of fish jumping out from the stress of the apisto breeding. So far, baby motherfish is fully holding her own and still has a lot of babies, around 20. 

I'm also on the lookout for any extra bolbitis and monte carlo/cuba people have to buy, both these plants are so nice but the plants that come from the shops are kinda rubbish. Let me know! 
























You can't see it from the front, but on the back of the wood that sticks out I've added this little fern. It wasn't labeled but we think it's some sort of staghorn or birds nest fern. It'll probably get way too big but it's just an experiment really.​


----------



## shangman

It's my UKAPS birthday, I joined one year ago today  So I thought I'd write a post about why I started fishkeeping. It's a bit long, apologies for that! 

When I was very young my dad kept a tropical fishtank and some firebellied toads (2 different tanks luckily!) which I was enamoured by, I loved to go to Maidenhead Aquatics at Morden Hall with him and pick out fish, to help with waterchanges and generally be around animals. The tank began to leak when I was 5, so he drained the tank and we kept some leopard geckos, which was very successful - they bred, and we swapped the babies at the local pet shop for some golden axolotls. This spiraled into keeping a huge array of exotic pets over the next 6 years - corn snakes, salamanders, bullfrogs and horned toads, then onto insects with hissing cockroaches, praying mantis, beetles and their large grubs in big tubs, and finally arachnids where we ended up with 21 tarantulas and 14 scorpions. We probably had a hundred different species come and go with varying success - some things bred and lived a long time, and some things dropped dead very quickly. We had enormous fun going to conventions across England to meet the eccentric people who sold the animals, and find fascinating creatures to keep. The most awful creature we kept was a camel spider, which is probably one of the most ugly things in the world. My dad goes through phases of collecting interesting things (it's usually plants, he is Kew-trained horticulturist, gardener and landscape architect), and he was getting bored by the time I was 12 so they all got given to the local pet shop (Crystal Palace has a fantastic exotic pets shop which enabled all of this), and I got some pet fancy rats instead. We've just had cats since I was 15. Because I kept so many animals as a teenager I of course wanted to study biology and do some sort of science-y stuff as an adult, but I started finding the tests extremely hard at A-Level as I'm dyslexic (sorry for all my typos all the time 😅), and really was much better at art anyway, so I studied that. Nature has always featured heavily in my art, but always as an interpretation.

In 2019 I started watching Foo the Flowerhorn videos on youtube to chill out after work which was really high stress. When the pandemic began it completely up-ended my industry (designer fashion) and my small business, though I was totally burnt out anyway from the extremely long hours and relentless desire people have for new stuff, so in a way it was a relief to rest. I started playing Planet Zoo where you make and manage a zoo with quite realistic animals, I loved to make beautiful naturalistic enclosures, it was a great escape. Then I started to fantasise about my own aquarium, what I might put in it and how that might go, but I didn't think I'd get to keep one any time soon. Looking back I think it was the idea of another little world in my bedroom, one I could somewhat control was what really attracted me to it, while the whole world became so scary and unknowable. In May 2020 my MIL died very unexpectedly (not from covid, but covid made it even more awful) and I just snapped, I have always been quite anxious and I was at a 10/10, somehow I felt that the only relief I would have is if I got a fishtank. Luckily a lovely woman at our allotment had a tank and basic equipment in her shed from trying and failing to keep goldfish which she gave to me for free. I think my instincts were right, I have found this hobby healing, calming and invigorating.

<This was my first post on UKAPS>, in which I killed my first group of fish by completely misunderstanding cycling and how important water changes are,  and relied on test kits to tell me things they couldn't. I had researched for months (a bit but not much on UKAPS) and completely got the wrong end of the stick, don't trust aquarium-reddit, folks! I felt very guilty, lots of animals had died on us when I was a kid and even though I was very young I had always felt guilty and responsible for that, and I really did not want to repeat those mistakes, my biggest goal is for all my pets to live the best life possible. Somehow I must've realised that this place was the best place to ask what was going on, which I'm very thankful for. The concepts explained to me in that first post are really the foundation of my knowledge and understanding of the aquarium, and I haven't killed a fish in a new tank since. Especially big thanks to @dw1305, the first time I felt I really "got" what was going on in an aquarium and the whole holistic system was with your explanations. Though of course it takes a village and there are too many amazing users to name, I won't list as I'm sure I'll leave someone awesome out.

I've watched basically every aquascaping video on Youtube over the past year which are so mesmerising, but really it is UKAPS where I have learnt the most, not just from all the amazing responses to my own posts that have really educated me, but from the whole archive of questions and answers with so many theories and experiments being shared, and the endless beautiful journals full of creativity. I don't always comment, but I read almost everything and learn something new constantly. Coming from the fashion industry, which has a very hostile and competitive atmosphere which is very isolating (even though most fashion designers are very nice), it has been so refreshing to join a community of people who share so openly, who compliment and comment and give advice and just generally lift eachother up. It's kinda like art school, but better. After being burnt out by fashion, I haven't made anything new art-wise the whole pandemic, although now I look back and view the aquariums as pieces of art themselves, art where we work collaboratively with nature to create something beautiful that neither of us could have done alone. Before coming here I only really thought about fish tanks in old-fashioned terms, as glass boxes you bought in a pre-decided size, where you put a small selection of plants and fish and it was basic, but still nice. Of course, now I know that you can literally do every part of the aquarium yourself, that there is so much variety, so much possibility and so much beauty. I am so excited by the possibilities of this hobby - I have so many ideas I want to try, I honestly can't wait! Another little shoutout here to my awesome creative friend @Courtneybst, who I'm endlessly scheming new tank ideas with, we met on UKAPS after I gave him some baby apistogrammas. 

Despite being trapped in my room the whole time, this hobby and community has really has made this past year fun - I'm so grateful for all of your generosity, advice, jokes, plants and experiences shared so far. Here's to many more years of glorious fishkeeping, aquascaping and everything inbetween! 🐟🦐🎉


----------



## Courtneybst

@shangman  I never quite realised the extent of the animals you kept! Sounds like Noah's Ark!

Also, let the scheming snowball! Here here!


----------



## dw1305

H all,


shangman said:


> Especially big thanks to @dw1305, the first time I felt I really "got" what was going on in an aquarium and the whole holistic system was with your explanations.


Thank-you, I always hope they help, but I'm never entirely sure. I'm not really the originator of any of "my" ideas, <"Diana Walstad">, Horst & Kipper, <"Bob Marklew">, @foxfish etc.  had got there long before I did.

cheers Darrel


----------



## shangman

Courtneybst said:


> @shangman  I never quite realised the extent of the animals you kept! Sounds like Noah's Ark!
> 
> Also, let the scheming snowball! Here here!


It basically was 😂 I look back and think.... omg it was INSANE. We had rows and rows of tanks on shelves! No wonder I don't find maintenance that much a chore, I was trained basically at birth, and it's so much less than it was then, even with 4 tanks. I really can't wait to go to my first fish convention at some point, the conventions were always awesome.

It does seem to be snowballing... every project is so much fun!



dw1305 said:


> H all,
> 
> Thank-you, I always hope they help, but I'm never entirely sure. I'm not really the originator of any of "my" ideas, <"Diana Walstad">, Horst & Kipper, <"Bob Marklew">, @foxfish etc.  had got there long before I did.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Yes, they definitely do help!!   I know you arne't the originator but certainly you are a very good teacher with a great way of explaining it all. I actually managed to read Walstad's book and completely miss crucial info! You made the concepts practically applicable which I am very grateful for.



------------------------------------------------​

Put the first fish in the aquarium yesterday (a lone rare type of oto, my dad bought a small group and all the rest died, it didn't seem happy in his 45L  ), and it has SURVIVED and didn't seem to suffer at all with CO2, it's now enjoying munching on the wood. As the oto seemed to really like the extra flow when it lived with my baby apistos, and cos in the back left corner the rotala isn't really doing much I added the second filter, so the flow is pretty great now. It had been making extremely annoying noises, but I replaced the sealing ring and sprayed it with silicon and that seems to have done it! I'm still not convinced by the skimming inlet, my jet outlet seems to get a lot more done with a little whirlpool effect, and it's quiet. Honestly really love being able to view the tank top-down too, especially when the shrimps are on the wood near the surface, it's like rockpooling as a kid.

I bought some black rose shrimp which arrived today, to join the black shrimp that were magically born into my nano tank (cherry shrimp genetics is fascinating) and now live in the big tank (my first successful animal-adding experiment). Since I had all the gear set up, I also acclimated 6 amanos from my nano tank and added them too, I've been noticing a bit of hair algae at the top of the tank and I wanted to see if they would be able to clobber it a bit.

I'm planning adding my 6 otos from my 60L after the next big waterchange at the weekend, as there are a lot of diatoms to munch, and last time I had apisto babies 2 otos jumped out which I def don't want to repeat. The courgette harvest has just begun too, so they'll have their extra veggies if they eat everything quickly.

What I really love is that so far, all the animals are really interacting with the hardscape and ignoring the bottom layer completely, and because the tank is so massive I can really enjoy watching them at different angles, they're very often out in the open enough for me to watching them and they don't really notice. I think it also helps that the hardscape makes some deep shadows so they can feel very hidden, even though I'm like 👀👀👀

Many apologies for the terrible blurry photo, my phone seems to get confused by the CO2 bubbles and blur everything out. Photography is def the next skill I'll try to learn! But I just love seeing the fish silhouetted like this so I wanted to share, it was so cool lol


----------



## shangman

Bonjour, I have a question today. I've noticed some hair algae (seems to be a mix of spyro and clado) growing out of the mosses at the very top of the scape on the wood. Should I do something about this? I will try to pick some of it out but i think it'll be kinda hard to get it all. 

Things I'm doing that will hopefully help:
I have some floating plants which are growing
 I added some cherries (15) and amanos (6) in yesterday
The light's max is currently 50% for 4 of 8 hours, the 2 hours before and 2 hours after that are just it ramping up and down from that. 
I'm dosing 35ml of ferts a day, alternating macro/micro
I have 2 filters running - 1 Oase Biomaster 600, 1 Eheim Pro4+ (the Eheim has no media it in, it's just for flow). The inlets/outlets are both on the right side facing the left on either side of the wood, so should hopefully make a big circle.
The CO2 is lime green (should I move it around to check each day at different points or not bother?)

Maybe should add some fast growing plants? Or dose liquid carbon? IDK. Don't really want to add any algaecide or do a blackout when the plants are young and not very stable yet. Maybe should just buy more plants, I do think I need more bolbitus, monte carlo, moss and buce, though I don't think they're that fast growing!

Just wondered if there was anything you guys think I should try!


----------



## Wookii

shangman said:


> Bonjour, I have a question today. I've noticed some hair algae (seems to be a mix of spyro and clado) growing out of the mosses at the very top of the scape on the wood. Should I do something about this? I will try to pick some of it out but i think it'll be kinda hard to get it all. I have some floating plants which are growing, and I won't remove any. I also added some shrimp in yesterday which will maybe get around with helping this. The light's max is currently 50% for 4 of 8 hours, the 2 hours before and 2 hours after that are just it ramping up and down from that. Maybe should add some fast growing plants? Or dose liquid carbon? IDK. Don't really want to add any algaecide or do a blackout when the tank is young and not stable yet. I have recently added the second filter, and my CO2 is lime green, so I think that should be ok (hopefully).
> 
> Just wondered if there was anything you guys think I should try!



Hair algae is almost impossible to prevent in a high light tank in my limited experience. The only time I've eradicated it is in my low light low tech tank, where no algae at all seems to be able to survive the snail and shrimp army in that slow growth environment. 

It particularly loves embedding itself in slow growing plants like moss, particularly if they are near the surface. I always get it growing around emersed sections of moss (pulled a chunk of it out of my tank yesterday from such a spot) or moss patches near the surface. It's easy to remove with a toothbrush during tank maintenance, and usually doesn't tend to grow quickly enough to be a significant nuisance unless something is majorly off in your tank in terms of CO2 and ferts - generally about 2 minutes with a toothbrush for me, once a week or two.

In the end I think you just have to live with it to an extent, and treat it as part of your natural tank environment, as its not that unsightly in small quantities like Staghorn or BBA is.


----------



## shangman

Wookii said:


> Hair algae is almost impossible to prevent in a high light tank in my limited experience. The only time I've eradicated it is in my low light low tech tank, where no algae at all seems to be able to survive the snail and shrimp army in that slow growth environment.
> 
> It particularly loves embedding itself in slow growing plants like moss, particularly if they are near the surface. I always get it growing around emersed sections of moss (pulled a chunk of it out of my tank yesterday from such a spot) or moss patches near the surface. It's easy to remove with a toothbrush during tank maintenance, and usually doesn't tend to grow quickly enough to be a significant nuisance unless something is majorly off in your tank in terms of CO2 and ferts - generally about 2 minutes with a toothbrush for me, once a week or two.
> 
> In the end I think you just have to live with it to an extent, and treat it as part of your natural tank environment, as its not that unsightly in small quantities like Staghorn or BBA is.


Yeah I get the same sad you in one of my tanks, all around the moss at the emergent moss I can just pull clumps of it off. But I used moss from another tank that seemed algae free, I guess it's just always embedded (it's all in the fissidens I got from eBay, can't seem to buy it in pots). 

Living with it is ok if it's subtle like now, I just saw it now and went nooooo cos in my lowtechs it is MUCH worse and I really don't want that for this tank!! 

How do you clean it off with a toothbrush? Just rub it around on the moss were it is? I'll try it!! 

My other thought was to try a 1-2 punch of peroxide and liquid carbon on just those areas affected, they're all mosses that are far above the water line during waterchanges do it would be easy to spray and spot dose. But also I think it might murder the mosses? So annoying!


----------



## Wookii

shangman said:


> Yeah I get the same sad you in one of my tanks, all around the moss at the emergent moss I can just pull clumps of it off. But I used moss from another tank that seemed algae free, I guess it's just always embedded (it's all in the fissidens I got from eBay, can't seem to buy it in pots).
> 
> Living with it is ok if it's subtle like now, I just saw it now and went nooooo cos in my lowtechs it is MUCH worse and I really don't want that for this tank!!
> 
> How do you clean it off with a toothbrush? Just rub it around on the moss were it is? I'll try it!!
> 
> My other thought was to try a 1-2 punch of peroxide and liquid carbon on just those areas affected, they're all mosses that are far above the water line during waterchanges do it would be easy to spray and spot dose. But also I think it might murder the mosses? So annoying!



Excel has never done anything for me, even heavy spot dosing with a syringe. Not tried peroxide, but ultimately it’ll be a band aid, and give it a month and it’ll be back again - and yes, it will damage moss.

For the tooth brush, just use it like a fork in spaghetti, snag the hair algae in the bristles and then keep twisting the brush, wrapping the algae around it, until you pull it all out. For Fissidens you can brush it like brushing hair too to get more bits out. You’ll pull some moss out as you go, but not much usually. Like I say, once you get used to doing it, it only takes a couple of minutes.


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## Wookii

Fat fingered double post


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## shangman

Wookii said:


> Excel has never done anything for me, even heavy spot dosing with a syringe. Not tried peroxide, but ultimately it’ll be a band aid, and give it a month and it’ll be back again - and yes, it will damage moss.
> 
> For the tooth brush, just use it like a fork in spaghetti, snag the hair algae in the bristles and then keep twisting the brush, wrapping the algae around it, until you pull it all out. For Fissidens you can brush it like brushing hair too to get more bits out. You’ll pull some moss out as you go, but not much usually. Like I say, once you get used to doing it, it only takes a couple of minutes.


Excel has worked great for staghorn for me before, but it seems like that's all it really helps! I think you're right, I'll just try your removal technique and just keeping hammering it, as it's all so close to the surface I might not even need to get my hands wet. I'm hoping to have more time on my hands soon when the 60L tank gets taken down and I go from 4 to 3 tanks.

All my creatures are still all acting completely naturally, looking forward to adding my fish from the 60L soon. This tank is starting to become hypnotic to watch which is awesome, I want to spend more time doing that and less time doing maintenance on the 4 tanks, that extra one is just slightly too much.


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## shangman

This morning I put my otos and cardinals in the big tank, and already they look sooooo good. The way they are exploring and swimming about, using all parts of the tank, darting inbetween twigs and the otos sucking upside down on the wood is MAGICAL. Bigger tanks are always a good idea!! The BEST is when the fish swim through the big hole in the wood, as soon as I saw that wood I imagined that and it's so awesome to see it actually happen.

Will post some photos tomorrow when they're more comfortable  have a lovely Sunday!


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## dw1305

Hi all, 


shangman said:


> My other thought was to try a 1-2 punch of peroxide and liquid carbon on just those areas affected, they're all mosses that are far above the water line during waterchanges do it would be easy to spray and spot dose. But also I think it might murder the mosses?


_"Murder the mosses"_ would be my guess. They don't have a  cuticle, so will be easily damaged by <"any oxidising agent">. 

cheers Darrel


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## shangman

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> _"Murder the mosses"_ would be my guess. They don't have a  cuticle, so will be easily damaged by <"any oxidising agent">.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Won't do that then, luckily the algae so far is very minimal on the mosses and easy to pull out with the tooth brush!


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## shangman

​Here's a pic from 2 days ago, it's looking nice at the moment. The fish are acting soooooo much happier and more naturally in this tank, so after I moved the otos and cardinals over last Saturday, I added the apistos and kuhlis this Tuesday. Things on the fish-front have been great, I've seen all the fish really interacting with the environment and exploring and playing. I will eventually add one or two other types fo fish, but I'm mostly going to focus on adding numbers to what I already have to get more interesting behaviour from them, particularly the kuhlis. I'm thinking of buying another one or two female Macmasteris, or maybe an agasizzi pair that looks very different, but am waiting for now. The dream would be a few dicrossus but as the water is 50/50 rainwater-tap I don't think it'll work out, and should wait for my next tank early next year. Planning on visiting the Fish Barn at some point to really see all the beautiful fish I love IRL so I can properly decide, it's so hard to tell from photos and videos online. Also would love any suggestions for interesting top-half tank fish, I was really interested in a group of long-fin rainbows but apparently they like near-still flow, and with 2 big filters going mine isn't really that!

Things have been growing slowly but steadily, especially the mosses which are very fluffy which is lovely. BUT I also added some monte carlo 2 days ago (not pictured here soz), and this morning I noticed that it is melting a bit, and also that my rotalas are looking a bit stunted. I have been adding 35ml of fertiliser every day, so I think that's fine, I think the C02 has gone a bit wonky. I realised this morning that the fluid in my bubble counter was very low (didn't know that was a thing), so I've topped that up and readjusted how much C02 goes in to see if that will help. I think things are just slightly off, it hasn't ben perfected yet. I'll take some more photos later, the melt/stunting of fast growers is all over the tank so I don't think it's flow. Will keep a good eye today to make sure it's all good. I always expected things would be a bit dodgy at first as I learn so it's ok, as long as I can get things back in track before everything melts or something!!


----------



## Wookii

shangman said:


> Also would love any suggestions for interesting top-half tank fish, I was really interested in a group of long-fin rainbows but apparently they like near-still flow, and with 2 big filters going mine isn't really that!



Lots of choice for you for top layer fish - unfortunately most of them are jumpers though, I can't tell if you have a glass cover or not, if not you may want more surface cover like floating plants. A nice shoal of Chilli's perhaps (you probably guessed I was going to suggest that lol), or a fish I've always wanted; a decent sized shoal of Dwarf Pencils (Nannostomus Marginatus), or maybe Spotted Blu-Eyes (Pseudomugil  Gertrudae), or Clown Killi's (Epiplatys Annulatus), or maybe even some more common Zebra Danio (perhaps a long fin variety if you want something more fancy).



shangman said:


> I have been adding 35ml of fertiliser every day, so I think that's fine . . .​



What ferts are you using? On a 180 litre tank its going to be worth moving to DIY salts (assuming you are EI dosing).


----------



## Gill

shangman said:


> Also would love any suggestions for interesting top-half tank fish, I was really interested in a group of long-fin rainbows but apparently they like near-still flow, and with 2 big filters going mine isn't really that!


How about some of the rarer guppies. And If you want long finned why not some swallow or ribbon tailed. You should be able to find some in the groups or on Ebay. though you do have x2 big filters so subsequent generations will have shorter finnage with guppies. 
LF danios would be nice, especially the Gold Leopard ones.


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## shangman

Wookii said:


> Lots of choice for you for top layer fish - unfortunately most of them are jumpers though, I can't tell if you have a glass cover or not, if not you may want more surface cover like floating plants. A nice shoal of Chilli's perhaps (you probably guessed I was going to suggest that lol), or a fish I've always wanted; a decent sized shoal of Dwarf Pencils (Nannostomus Marginatus), or maybe Spotted Blu-Eyes (Pseudomugil  Gertrudae), or Clown Killi's (Epiplatys Annulatus), or maybe even some more common Zebra Danio (perhaps a long fin variety if you want something more fancy).


Yes it's the jumping that makes me go hmmm... it is an open-top tank. I am planning to wait a good while to get them, so the bolbitis, ferns, mosses and things can grow thickly around the top of the wood and create more top cover, as well as the stems at the back making nice thick bushes. I still have more bolbitis to glue on this weekend, I'm hoping all of it really thickens out and makes a great place for the top fish to hide so they don't get too jumpy. Also thinking of attaching some wabi kusa balls to the backs of the emergent wood to create more trailing top emergent cover like in my nanos. The flow is strong enough that all the floating plants go in a corner all pilled on top of eachother which is v annoying.

Your ideas are very close to what's on my hypothetical list!! The chilli rasboras are definitely up there after the recent thread on them in a big group. Eventually my cardinal tetras will go to live in a new blackwater tank, and I think then the chillis are on. The dwarf pencils are also lovely, I was looking into coral pencils too (though they're so expensive if they jump it'll be rubbish!), originally I really wanted hockeystick pencils but I think the flow might be too strong  Those clown killis are amazing too, I've heard they're super jumpy though, anyone ever managed to keep them without probems?

I didn't think of the zebra danios but the longfin variety is very nice! Do they have a bit of personality? I'm hoping for something that does something interesting sometimes, which is why the spotted blue-eyes (or the orange version) are at the top of the list with those funny fins they have, though I'm not sure if they like flow either!!

What are your/other's opinions of dwarf rainbows, is this tank big enough? In my favourite tank at Aquarium Gardens (shown below) they have dwarf rainbows which seemed to love swimming in the flow, when I was there they just swam in a group against the flow the whole time. This tank is also a big inspriation, I love how the bolbitis and buce goes all the way up the wood create extra habitat. That tank is 150cm though, and mine is 90cm (50 depth). Online it says minimum 60cm, I don't want to keep fish at their minimum though, I want them to feel like they can really thrive and have space.

​



Wookii said:


> What ferts are you using? On a 180 litre tank its going to be worth moving to DIY salts (assuming you are EI dosing).


Yes I am EI Dosing, but don't worry it is DIY salts, though I put mix them in water cos I don't quite understand how much dry salts to put in daily, I should do the maths and buy a proper teaspoon maybe. I have a macro and micro mix that I alternate every day. I'm using things from aquariumplantfooduk that I bought second hand from Carpman when he took his tank down.



Gill said:


> How about some of the rarer guppies. And If you want long finned why not some swallow or ribbon tailed. You should be able to find some in the groups or on Ebay. though you do have x2 big filters so subsequent generations will have shorter finnage with guppies.
> LF danios would be nice, especially the Gold Leopard ones.


What would you consider a rarer guppy? I don't really know much about them tbh, though I do quite like the endlers. Since all my tanks have been rainwater I never considered them before, though they are always very pretty at the shops. Do they have any interesting sparring behaviour? I'm sort of hoping for something like that to keep my entertained.

The gold leopard longfins are CRAZY looking!! Wow, like bettas! I'll keep an eye of for them.. also there was a photo next to them I just saw with some longfin moutain minnows, anyone kept any of them? Looking like a Kardashian with those lips wow lmao, possibly they like cold water but they are great.


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## Gill

shangman said:


> What would you consider a rarer guppy? I don't really know much about them tbh, though I do quite like the endlers. Since all my tanks have been rainwater I never considered them before, though they are always very pretty at the shops. Do they have any interesting sparring behaviour? I'm sort of hoping for something like that to keep my entertained.


TBH there are so Many types of Guppies now, and they are creating new strains all the time.
The Koi Guppies are very nice as well as the tuxedo guppies, but they are only in Short(Coffer) tail varieties and not longfin yet. There are also a CrownTail variety, but they are a very niche fish to keep and alot of people think that they have finrot from how they look. 
I Would have a Look on the guppy section of ebay for a general idea for the different types that are available in the uk.  I would suggest the B.L.A auction thi sunday in Leicester, but thats a bit far from london. You get to view all the sales fish prior to the auction. 

The LFGWCMM I have not seen for sale in the UK yet, though the standard are on ebay. And have bought from this seller in that Past 
With the Golds you have to pay a premium for decent ones, or you can end up with the marbled/calico ones. and they can look a biy muddy when older. 
The Red Lips are certainly a KK look
10 (ten) x Tanichthys albonubes «Long Fin» (White Cloud Mountain Minnow)

OHHHHH Have you thought of Threadfin Rainbows, they are an a stunning fish once you start to get a Dominant Male appearing and their sparring displays are fast and all about the biggest finnage on display. 
They are alot more pricey than they used be when you could get them for as little as 95p each. And now I have seen them going for upwards of £8 each. 
You can get lucky and get some of the other colored males, but generally you only see the red tailed males.
The Alpha Male gets a large Silver lump on its lower jaw, and is something to behold. 







I have also kept this variety, and these males are something else when they are sparring with the other males in the group. 

Iriatherina werneri «Merauke» 






shangman said:


> What are your/other's opinions of dwarf rainbows, is this tank big enough? In my favourite tank at Aquarium Gardens (shown below) they have dwarf rainbows which seemed to love swimming in the flow, when I was there they just swam in a group against the flow the whole time. This tank is also a big inspriation, I love how the bolbitis and buce goes all the way up the wood create extra habitat. That tank is 150cm though, and mine is 90cm (50 depth). Online it says minimum 60cm, I don't want to keep fish at their minimum though, I want them to feel like they can really thrive and have space



These are lovely active fish (praecox) that dont get big and love a fast flow.


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## shangman

Gill said:


> TBH there are so Many types of Guppies now, and they are creating new strains all the time.
> The Koi Guppies are very nice as well as the tuxedo guppies, but they are only in Short(Coffer) tail varieties and not longfin yet. There are also a CrownTail variety, but they are a very niche fish to keep and alot of people think that they have finrot from how they look.
> I Would have a Look on the guppy section of ebay for a general idea for the different types that are available in the uk.  I would suggest the B.L.A auction thi sunday in Leicester, but thats a bit far from london. You get to view all the sales fish prior to the auction.
> 
> The LFGWCMM I have not seen for sale in the UK yet, though the standard are on ebay. And have bought from this seller in that Past
> With the Golds you have to pay a premium for decent ones, or you can end up with the marbled/calico ones. and they can look a biy muddy when older.
> The Red Lips are certainly a KK look
> 10 (ten) x Tanichthys albonubes «Long Fin» (White Cloud Mountain Minnow)
> 
> OHHHHH Have you thought of Threadfin Rainbows, they are an a stunning fish once you start to get a Dominant Male appearing and their sparring displays are fast and all about the biggest finnage on display.
> They are alot more pricey than they used be when you could get them for as little as 95p each. And now I have seen them going for upwards of £8 each.
> You can get lucky and get some of the other colored males, but generally you only see the red tailed males.
> The Alpha Male gets a large Silver lump on its lower jaw, and is something to behold.
> View attachment 172218
> 
> View attachment 172219
> I have also kept this variety, and these males are something else when they are sparring with the other males in the group.
> 
> Iriatherina werneri «Merauke»
> View attachment 172220
> 
> 
> 
> These are lovely active fish (praecox) that dont get big and love a fast flow.


Thank you so much for all of this!! I will go on an ebay search, when I first started fishkeeping I would endlessly trawl through ebay fantasising about buying all the nice fish there, it'll be nice to try that again! Thankyu for all of the links too, I'm super tempted by those lfwcmm too. 

Honestly in my opinion those threadfin rainbows are THE fish to get, I can imagine them in there sparring and they'd be absolutely glorious. The only thing is that online it says that they come from still waters (which isn't surprising given the fins) and need low flow. Maybe I'll have a research around the internet and see if anyone has tried them in a higher flow and how that goes. They are so beautiful, I think all the colour varieties are lovely, even if they aren't neon-coloured they're still very nice.




Look at this one, amazing!


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## Gill

They do Look stunning in nice large groups with males sparring. And have kept them in high flow tanks and low flow and still water in the past. 
And seen no real change within the behaviours in high flow.


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## shangman

Gill said:


> They do Look stunning in nice large groups with males sparring. And have kept them in high flow tanks and low flow and still water in the past.
> And seen no real change within the behaviours in high flow.


Just what I wanted to hear @Gill!  Will have a look around and see if anyone stocks them or if they'll have to be ordered in.

.... almost got carried away there and then remembered I have to wait until the plants are a bit more grown in! 👀 Hopefully Kew Aquatics or the Fish Barn will be able to supply some then


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## mort

With your lovely layered planting that's going to get thicker, plus the apistogramma in the lower areas, you might not need to think of normal top dwelling fish. I'm a huge pencilfish fan but it's a real risk to keep them in an open top. The same goes for any top dwelling species as they tend to have evolved to leap when spooked rather than dive for cover. 
I think that if you got a traditional middle swimming tetra or similar fish, like black phantom tetras, then the vegetation and the apisto's would push them more to the upper waters. I know tetras aren't as exciting as rainbowfish or killi's but they are harmonious and generally quiet, plus interesting when the males spar. My mindset for fish is perhaps different to others/most, I'm a less is more and like to keep things kinda similar in local, at least down to continent, plus I like quieter fish rather than those hyper active species which I find distracting (although great if activity is what you are after).

So my tip is to not be constrained by traditional categories of fish. Try to think what you want the species to bring into the tank, like if all your other fish are quiet then adding a really active species probably won't impress them much and you lose a lot of their behaviour. Bright and colourful doesn't always mean exciting, and common and bland isn't always boring.

I know that's probably the least helpful post when asking for fish ideas but from my time selling fish I know that often people had buyer regret when what they picked just didn't fit in with their tank or what they wanted to achieve. Consider less species but more of them. Your dwarf rainbows would be a nice colourful addition but even species like silver tip tetra can look and act amazing on mass.


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## mort

Praecox can easily be sexed as well which makes getting the ideal mix easier.


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## shangman

mort said:


> With your lovely layered planting that's going to get thicker, plus the apistogramma in the lower areas, you might not need to think of normal top dwelling fish. I'm a huge pencilfish fan but it's a real risk to keep them in an open top. The same goes for any top dwelling species as they tend to have evolved to leap when spooked rather than dive for cover.
> I think that if you got a traditional middle swimming tetra or similar fish, like black phantom tetras, then the vegetation and the apisto's would push them more to the upper waters. I know tetras aren't as exciting as rainbowfish or killi's but they are harmonious and generally quiet, plus interesting when the males spar. My mindset for fish is perhaps different to others/most, I'm a less is more and like to keep things kinda similar in local, at least down to continent, plus I like quieter fish rather than those hyper active species which I find distracting (although great if activity is what you are after).
> 
> So my tip is to not be constrained by traditional categories of fish. Try to think what you want the species to bring into the tank, like if all your other fish are quiet then adding a really active species probably won't impress them much and you lose a lot of their behaviour. Bright and colourful doesn't always mean exciting, and common and bland isn't always boring.
> 
> I know that's probably the least helpful post when asking for fish ideas but from my time selling fish I know that often people had buyer regret when what they picked just didn't fit in with their tank or what they wanted to achieve. Consider less species but more of them. Your dwarf rainbows would be a nice colourful addition but even species like silver tip tetra can look and act amazing on mass.


Thank-you for this very thoughtful reply, it's not unhelpful at all. Have you found that boisterous top-middle fish like rainbows can scare other fish? I find it very interesting because I found that when I added my cardinal tetras all of the other fish (apistos, otos and especially kuhlis) became much more bold and come out a lot more. I definitely don't want the rest of my fish to be spooked, I didn't realise that that was a possibility with something like a threadfin rainbow group. I also don't want any new fish to not be happy either! The first thing I'm doing before buying any new types of fish in this tank is to increase the numbers of what I already have to see what changes that brings about and what space is filled (or not filled), though atm nothing uses the top third which is why I was interested in hearing what people think, and if there was a fish that would use that area more. 

I think I am a quirky fish keeper, I love a quirky fish with lots of personality, it's why the dwarf cichlids are my absolute favourite. It's also why I completely broke the same-continent rule early-on when I started fishkeeping last year - didn't understand stocking at all - and so got some kuhlis (the way they wiggle around is just so amusing), which rather doomed this tank to never match properly, so I'm not quite as bothered by it as long as the fish aren't upset by each other. I am planning a blackwater SA tank for my living room for next year though, properly kosher.

I wasn't the biggest fan of tetras in aquariums until very recently. They always look so incredible in films of them in the wild in enormous fabulous groups, (I am actually currently planning a to paint a mural in my hallway with huge schools of them), but in tanks alone they didn't appeal that much. However... I have found that my cardinals (from an acquaintance who was giving up the hobby) have really thrived in the new tank, are so much happier than in the temporary 60L and do form an interesting dynamic group, constantly making different shapes. I was planning on getting a few more of them, though they'll probably go and live in the blackwater to enjoy rooty brown heaven next year. And they do seem to make the other fish less shy, I was hoping that the rainbows would do that too, with fancy wiggly fins on top.

Won't get any pencils, I'll keep them on the list for a future covered tank! One day I WILL have some hockeysticks!! Another very amusing fish.


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## mort

Praecox rainbows are not much of a problem for the average, even timid, community fish ime but there are some species like danios that are frantic swimmers and it's this hyper activity that I've seen change the behaviour in shyer species. As an example I added danio choprae to my pencilfish tank when I started it. I had ten pencilfish and ten danios, so not massive groups but ok sized ones. The danios were boisterous and really kept the beckfords pencils, which are quite a bold species, really subdued and it wasn't until I removed the danios to a tank on their own about 2 years later that I actually got to see the pencilfish behaviour. I've seen this behaviour with dozens of other combinations with even peaceful species like zebra danios who aren't interested in other fish at all but their constant activity has thrown the other fish off. It can sometimes work the other way bringing out more activity in the other fish but I think its more often slightly negative rather than positive, and you have cardinals already which are a more timid species.
It's really just my personal preference tbh and mixing species can be really successful but I probably look for different behaviours due to my experience with particular fish that I know pretty well. 

I suppose if I had to give a rule for what I'm trying to say is that if you go to the shop and the fish are constantly swimming darting from place to place in a random type fashion then they might bother more timid fish, zebra danios and some barbs are examples of this. If the fish are swimming but in a slower more methodical manner then they will probably be fine, most tetra, rasbora etc are like this. The threadfin rainbows are a good example of the slower swimmers which would be a nice addition.


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## Gill

There is another Option for you - the smaller halfbeaks - Platinum Red Tailed ones. Small and stay at the surface all the time looking for something to eat. 
I have kept them in Open top tanks many times. From nano to large, and don't remember ever finding any had jumped. 
I used to feed mine whatever the fish get, with the addition of a few live treats and chicken breasts. The Females went nuts for shredded chicken breast and grew quickly on that. I tried fruit flies with them and they also liked them. adn they are an interesting live food to grow.


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## mort

I was going to recommend half beaks as they are really interesting species but they have the reputation of being really jumpy. The only ones I've ever kept were in tanks with lids because of this rep, so it's interesting to here Gill's experience.


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## shangman

mort said:


> Praecox rainbows are not much of a problem for the average, even timid, community fish ime but there are some species like danios that are frantic swimmers and it's this hyper activity that I've seen change the behaviour in shyer species. As an example I added danio choprae to my pencilfish tank when I started it. I had ten pencilfish and ten danios, so not massive groups but ok sized ones. The danios were boisterous and really kept the beckfords pencils, which are quite a bold species, really subdued and it wasn't until I removed the danios to a tank on their own about 2 years later that I actually got to see the pencilfish behaviour. I've seen this behaviour with dozens of other combinations with even peaceful species like zebra danios who aren't interested in other fish at all but their constant activity has thrown the other fish off. It can sometimes work the other way bringing out more activity in the other fish but I think its more often slightly negative rather than positive, and you have cardinals already which are a more timid species.
> It's really just my personal preference tbh and mixing species can be really successful but I probably look for different behaviours due to my experience with particular fish that I know pretty well.
> 
> I suppose if I had to give a rule for what I'm trying to say is that if you go to the shop and the fish are constantly swimming darting from place to place in a random type fashion then they might bother more timid fish, zebra danios and some barbs are examples of this. If the fish are swimming but in a slower more methodical manner then they will probably be fine, most tetra, rasbora etc are like this. The threadfin rainbows are a good example of the slower swimmers which would be a nice addition.


That's very interesting to hear about the danios, I've heard that barbs can be really boisterous like that, I didn't know that other little fish have that fast activity. Whatever fish I buy I would really like to see it before I buy it, I have bought some fish online but usually nothing new, just to up the stock I already have. I'll pay more attention to that now, looking at my tank today I did actually think what you said is very true - all the fish I keep right now are a litle shy and sweet and keep themselves to themselves, there is a peacefulness about it which I don't want to disrupt. I think the rainbows could really work, all of them are lovely, I was googling them after our chats and found 2 forum posts of people describing the threadfins as like butterflies in the tank which sounds super lovely. The praecox rainbwos are also amazing though, I wish there was a shop around here that had them both so I could compare and see which would fit more into the vibe! 

It's great to hear about your experiences with customers and what advice you'd give after being in the trade, I love hearing that insider knowledge!! 



Gill said:


> There is another Option for you - the smaller halfbeaks - Platinum Red Tailed ones. Small and stay at the surface all the time looking for something to eat.
> I have kept them in Open top tanks many times. From nano to large, and don't remember ever finding any had jumped.
> I used to feed mine whatever the fish get, with the addition of a few live treats and chicken breasts. The Females went nuts for shredded chicken breast and grew quickly on that. I tried fruit flies with them and they also liked them. adn they are an interesting live food to grow.


They would be incredible to keep, those top-water fish are so fascinating.. as a kid my favourite fish at the shops were the hatchet fish, but I always thought these types would always jump (which is such a shame because they'd be so interesting to watch from above too). I can't believe you could feed them bits of chicken! Have you ever found any particular tips to help fish feel comfortable enough not to jump in an open top? I've had it happen a  few times to me in my lowtech, although I think it was really down to the fish needing to be in a bigger tank/or the tank was crowded when my apisto had babies/or they were very new fish and the waterline was too high for that, there's always been a reason for some discomfort I have found so far. But also I haven't gone for fish that are known for jumping at all! So I know some just love to jump as part of their behaviour.

Thank you for throwing out all these great ideas, they're all going on my "must keep in the future" list, if they don't go in this tank, they'll certainly find their way to me at some point!


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## shangman

Ok so listen guys, something in the tank is definitely amiss, I noticed today that the rotala has suddenly started to stunt at the tops - it had been growing fine and very green before. Also my new monte carlo is really melting, which is all over the tank (though at the bottom mostly), and my bolbitis looks a little dodgy. I think it's everything looking a bit dodgy minus one little area where the outlet hits so I didn't quite realise cos that bit was nice.

Things have generally been fine so far before this - everything is growing, though some things (buces and schismatoglotis) had melted some leaves. Some things are looking really good like the mosses, and things do seem to have lots of shoots. The stems were growing more too, more big and green (50% light atm so no nice colours yet), and the echinodorus grew shedloads of leaves.

I noticed 2 days ago that the bubble counter needed the fluid readding, and then I reset my bubble counter after to what I thought it was. But I've just rechecked it and realised that the needle valve adjuster actually makes very little difference to the amount of bubbles coming out, I can turn it off but it doesn't really go about 1-2 bubbles per second. My drop chcker was yellow, but is right in the stream of the outlet, and now I've moved it to the back it's now blue.

I did think it was flow at first, but the change in growth has been quite a sudden downturn. The CO2 bottle isn't empty I don't think, it's still hovering over 750 or so.

Any ideas? Any pics needed?

Edit:
I pulled the solenoid plug out and plugged it in again and now the needlevalve works again, weirdly. So am back to a higher amount of CO2 going in, will check back tomorrow to see if it is green at lights on or if there are more problems. I wonder if I just knocked it somehow.


----------



## Gill

shangman said:


> They would be incredible to keep, those top-water fish are so fascinating.. as a kid my favourite fish at the shops were the hatchet fish, but I always thought these types would always jump (which is such a shame because they'd be so interesting to watch from above too). I can't believe you could feed them bits of chicken! Have you ever found any particular tips to help fish feel comfortable enough not to jump in an open top? I've had it happen a few times to me in my lowtech, although I think it was really down to the fish needing to be in a bigger tank/or the tank was crowded when my apisto had babies/or they were very new fish and the waterline was too high for that, there's always been a reason for some discomfort I have found so far. But also I haven't gone for fish that are known for jumping at all! So I know some just love to jump as part of their behaviour.



I always have some form of floating plants for them to swim amongst so that they feel secure.


----------



## shangman

Showed my dad what was wrong with the co2, and in doing that pulled the plug, and after I did that the needle valve works fine! I am so useless at this stuff, but I'm hoping that this means I can retune it tomorrow morning to get to the right amount of co2 again. Also going to pay more attention to flow, I wonder if I need to swap the back filter over.

Also changed the water which is now VERY BROWN from my rarely used waterbutt as all the others are low, it had a truly insane amount of live food in it, like £30 in a shop easy, the tetras went mad for it. But sadly Mr Apisto want that interested, because he are one of my largest new black shrimps ffs!! He hunted it on the moss, the apistos do seem to like hunting about for food in crevices! I wanted to try keeping some nicely coloured ones and culls have been living ok in the 60l with them before so I thought it would be ok, alas not.
 I guess they will just eat most of these nice ones cos I don't have another spare tank, and I'll end up putting my cull shrimp in there too for the apistos to enjoy and hopefully some do well cos they're more invisible, I really like having that proper range of creatures together from tiny to big (ish).


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## RPackman

I’m glad you sorted out your CO2. Hopefully the plants will bounce back.

Shame about your shrimp though!


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## shangman

Gill said:


> I always have some form of floating plants for them to swim amongst so that they feel secure.


Definitely need those! I was thinking for my next pond tank which will be blackwater, will have a lot of riparium wabi kusa foliage, hopefully that inspires less jumpers.



RPackman said:


> I’m glad you sorted out your CO2. Hopefully the plants will bounce back.
> 
> Shame about your shrimp though!


Thanks, fingers crossed it is actually fixed, I'm not exactly sure what changed to make things go odd... Will find out tomorrow if it's properly fixed though, I think it looked promising. 

It's a big shame, I really like the black shrimp! I did think this morning there were less in their usual spot at the top of the tank in the moss than usual but didn't think about it, I think I will try to net out any I find tomorrow but I wonder if he's spent the past few days hunting them all!! 😭


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## mort

Threadfin rainbows are very tricky to display in a lfs as they never look their best. They are really ugly ducklings that only become stunning when settled in a tank with a decent group. I'd say they are one for the more discerning aquarist that understands their potential, a bit loke diamond tetras. Praecox on the other hand normally look good in any tank but aren't always the hardiest fish nowadays.

We had a group of I think 50 but might have been 100 threadfins come in one day and I was thinking of putting them in a display tank but someone came in and had the same thought and bought every single one. I never got to see the tank as I think it was the only time I saw that person but I think it would have been amazing judging by how they looked in a bare qt tank for the two weeks before sale.


----------



## Wookii

mort said:


> Threadfin rainbows are very tricky to display in a lfs as they never look their best. They are really ugly ducklings that only become stunning when settled in a tank with a decent group. I'd say they are one for the more discerning aquarist that understands their potential, a bit loke diamond tetras. Praecox on the other hand normally look good in any tank but aren't always the hardiest fish nowadays.
> 
> We had a group of I think 50 but might have been 100 threadfins come in one day and I was thinking of putting them in a display tank but someone came in and had the same thought and bought every single one. I never got to see the tank as I think it was the only time I saw that person but I think it would have been amazing judging by how they looked in a bare qt tank for the two weeks before sale.



What are Threadfins like for jumping @mort?

I’ve considered them in the past, but was never sure if their full adult size, some sites say 40mm some say 50mm, and I’m never sure if that includes their long fins or not?


----------



## mort

Wookii said:


> What are Threadfins like for jumping @mort?
> 
> I’ve considered them in the past, but was never sure if their full adult size, some sites say 40mm some say 50mm, and I’m never sure if that includes their long fins or not?



I've not had masses of experience with them but I don't think they are any more jumpy than your average midwater fish. They can be shy to begin with and I would have a gentle transition to darkness rather then just a on off light so not to spook them as they aren't the boldest fish.
I'd say the biggest issue with them is being out competed for food by fast feeders.

Size wise seriously fish suggested 30-40mm and I would say that's right, fishbase Iriatherina werneri summary page  backs that up and I've not seen many over 3cm.


----------



## shangman

mort said:


> Threadfin rainbows are very tricky to display in a lfs as they never look their best. They are really ugly ducklings that only become stunning when settled in a tank with a decent group. I'd say they are one for the more discerning aquarist that understands their potential, a bit loke diamond tetras. Praecox on the other hand normally look good in any tank but aren't always the hardiest fish nowadays.
> 
> We had a group of I think 50 but might have been 100 threadfins come in one day and I was thinking of putting them in a display tank but someone came in and had the same thought and bought every single one. I never got to see the tank as I think it was the only time I saw that person but I think it would have been amazing judging by how they looked in a bare qt tank for the two weeks before sale.


I think I've heard this before, I've never seen them in any lfs and I wondered if that was why - nobody wants them as they don't look immediately perfect. Big shame, though maybe that insulates them from dodgy keepers well!

50 sounds amazing, I'd love to see that. I wish there were more display tanks featuring them on the internet, but there are hardly any at all. In a way I feel like that's another good reason to keep them - they seem very unappreciated. It's one of the things I wish we saw in aquascapes, a bigger variety of interesting fish. Of the videos I've watched them they look lovely, I like that their shape is longer and slimmer than the tetras too. 

In a tank that's 900 x 50 x 45, how many would you stock? Would you consider it big enough? I was thinking about 15, partly because they seem to be £7 each! They do seem a bit smaller than I thought (those fins make them seem much larger in photos!), so maybe a few more is possible.

Also, slightly unrelated question but I thought I'd ask - I have 10 cardinals and I'd like to add 6 - 10 more to just make it a more robust school. I think they are just the bogstandard maas-farmed variety, and 2 have bent spines. I was planning on the new ones being wild cardinals as I thought they might be more robust stock, and if they bred they would help keep them healthier.. would love to hear your thoughts on that wild/farmed side and if it's something to really consider or not.


----------



## Wookii

shangman said:


> I think I've heard this before, I've never seen them in any lfs and I wondered if that was why - nobody wants them as they don't look immediately perfect. Big shame, though maybe that insulates them from dodgy keepers well!



They’ve had them in my local MA, so worth checking if you have one locally.


----------



## mort

Threadfins are an easy fish to get hold of for any lfs and because they don't stock them it can actually work in your favour because if you get them specifically shipped in its easy to a good deal on price. I think 15 would be a great number but to complicate things more it's the sex ratio that's just as important as ideally you'd be looking at a 3:1 female/male ratio to get the best out of them. So I'd make sure any shop knows that before you order unless that ratio isn't as important for you.

Again I'm guessing but I don't think they are used more often because they really look their best when your nose is pressed against the glass, they don't really standout from a distance unlike a bright species like cardinals.

Wild caught cardinals are arguably better for the reasons you suggest. Tbh project Piaba meant that the cardinals I stocked were wild caught because of their buy a fish save a tree initiative. The wild caught still got deformed spines but normally due to the customers overfeeding their fish (big bellies can cause deformities but slightly plump is the sign of a healthy fish).


----------



## shangman

Wookii said:


> They’ve had them in my local MA, so worth checking if you have one locally.


Some people have all the luck! A very good excuse to visit all the shops though...



mort said:


> Threadfins are an easy fish to get hold of for any lfs and because they don't stock them it can actually work in your favour because if you get them specifically shipped in its easy to a good deal on price. I think 15 would be a great number but to complicate things more it's the sex ratio that's just as important as ideally you'd be looking at a 3:1 female/male ratio to get the best out of them. So I'd make sure any shop knows that before you order unless that ratio isn't as important for you.
> 
> Again I'm guessing but I don't think they are used more often because they really look their best when your nose is pressed against the glass, they don't really standout from a distance unlike a bright species like cardinals.
> 
> Wild caught cardinals are arguably better for the reasons you suggest. Tbh project Piaba meant that the cardinals I stocked were wild caught because of their buy a fish save a tree initiative. The wild caught still got deformed spines but normally due to the customers overfeeding their fish (big bellies can cause deformities but slightly plump is the sign of a healthy fish).


Oh that's very good to know about negotiating the price, I will see if I can barter a little. I do want to keep the sex ratio at the right number, maybe it's best to get 5 males 15 females (or at least ask). I've asked for good sex ratios before with sparkling gouramis for my dad's tank and they were like... no good luck! But the threadfins are a lot more obvious luckily. 

I'm just reading about Project Piaba and it's amazing!!! Really fascinating to read, will definitely get the wilds and ask the shop about if they stock from there. My cardianls are a bit fat tbh, how often would you feed them? They've learnt to eat the sinking loach pellets which is very annoying, so greedy.


----------



## mort

shangman said:


> My cardianls are a bit fat tbh, how often would you feed them?



Going by the last tank shot with them in there I think your already doing a great job. They look plump and healthy and not fat. They tend to lose the vibrancy on their tummies when they have pot bellies.


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## shangman

mort said:


> Going by the last tank shot with them in there I think your already doing a great job. They look plump and healthy and not fat. They tend to lose the vibrancy on their tummies when they have pot bellies.


Thank you! The pot belly description is a good shout, only have one like that, it must be the greediest of all!



An exciting little update - for the past few days Ms Apisto has been doing her breeding routine - go yellow and black, move about like a tactical helicopter and disappear into a hole under the wood most of the time. This morning I woke up and did my early-morning peek in the tank to see what's up, and found her right at the front by a crevice in the horn-like wood on the right with a load of hatching eggs! They were pink and white and wiggling a lot, it was amazing. Before I managed to snap a photo (which tbh would've been crap as it was very dark) she saw me looking and within a minute had moved them all into another little cave at the back of the wood out of sight. I'm very intrigued to see how this lot do in the new water, which is 50/50 rainwater/tap, and I wasn't sure if it would be possible for them to breed. Also not sure if they'll survive very long in an immature tank without lots of infusoria, but there are a lot of leaves in there already.

Speaking of leaves, the hands-down most popular food of my otos is these dried walnut leaves. Last year I ran out very quickly, so in the heatwave last week I picked lots more and dried them (very easy in that heat). One leaf lasts max a week (more like 3-4 days) until it's completely skeletonised, and it's a great way to get the otos to come to the front a lot. Pictured here is my "leopard oto" I got almost a year ago when I didn't know much, and only bought 2 to live with my 6 otos. One jumped out, and I only have this one left. I feel bad for the little fellow and would like to get some friends for him, but I don't know what it's latin name is to even try. It is more picky than normal otos, it only likes biofilm on wood and dried leaves, and seems to like a strong flow. I've never managed to get it to gain much weight, but it does seem much happier in this tank than my dad's 45l so hopefully it will now, it's eating a lot more and moving about a lot more too. It's longer and slimmer than a normal oto.  Anyone got any ideas what it could be? They were £6 each so I assume not a super rare type.


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## Conort2

shangman said:


> Anyone got any ideas what it could be?


Think it’s an oxyropsis, I’d say it’s pretty rare.

I’ve never seen one for sale, shame you only have the one as it’ll be difficult to source more. Price doesn’t always mean rare either, you can some really cool rare contaminants in South American wild caught shipments. 

cheers


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## shangman

Conort2 said:


> Think it’s an oxyropsis, I’d say it’s pretty rare.
> 
> I’ve never seen one for sale, shame you only have the one as it’ll be difficult to source more. Price doesn’t always mean rare either, you can some really cool rare contaminants in South American wild caught shipments.
> 
> cheers


Aha! Thank you very much, that's definitely it. This image looks exactly like mine on the glass, apparently _Oxyropsis carinata. _It's rare enough that I've never heard of it!









I look back now and think damn, I should've got all of them (there were only 4/5 or so). Or kept none and not let my dad convince me to get just a few (he is a terrible influence lol). I actually got this guy at ADC , I'll ask them next time I'm there if they will ever stock more, and maybe ask the fish barn. Hopefully a few more will appear as bycatches at some point. On the other hand, if anyone has, or knows someone with a colony of these I would gladly give this little guy up so he can live with some friends.

Any tips for sourcing these and other rare "contaminant" fish? Just out of curiousity really. Recently I discovered the existence of the emerald oto and that's become the holy grail of fish to me.


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## Conort2

shangman said:


> Any tips for sourcing these and other rare "contaminant" fish? Just out of curiousity really. Recently I discovered the existence of the emerald oto and that's become the holy grail of fish to me.


Just any shops that get wild caught South American orders in really. You often get contaminants with wild cardinals and wild apistogrammas can always be abit of a lottery in regards to what fish you get. Likewise with some of the corydoras species that come in.

Unfortunately I don’t think you’ll be getting any emerald ottos as a contaminant as nice as that would be ha, as they’re found down in the south. However I have definitely seen them available in the past but they’re a rarity for sure.

Cheers


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## shangman

Conort2 said:


> Just any shops that get wild caught South American orders in really. You often get contaminants with wild cardinals and wild apistogrammas can always be abit of a lottery in regards to what fish you get. Likewise with some of the corydoras species that come in.
> 
> Unfortunately I don’t think you’ll be getting any emerald ottos as a contaminant as nice as that would be ha, as they’re found down in the south. However I have definitely seen them available in the past but they’re a rarity for sure.
> 
> Cheers


So a shop that orders wild-caught fish will buy some wild cardinals, and in the bag there'll be a few other random fish in it? How exciting! I will ask around so the shops know if any some in I want them. I'm actually planning a visit to the Fish Barn for the first time over the next month, really can't wait to see all those lovely fish they have irl. Will have to exhibit some real restraint 😂 It's nice to go there knowing that I have a little bit of space to fill though.

I get the feeling those emerald otos are real £££ when they do appear, so definitely something for further in the future. They'd make a fantastic breeding project. I love those green darter tetra too, anything luminious green and interesting like that deserves a place on the "love to keep" list. I have a secret hankering with my next blackwater wabi-kusa pond tank to keep those with dicrossus and one or two other slightly odd SA fish.


----------



## Wookii

shangman said:


> So a shop that orders wild-caught fish will buy some wild cardinals, and in the bag there'll be a few other random fish in it? How exciting! I will ask around so the shops know if any some in I want them. I'm actually planning a visit to the Fish Barn for the first time over the next month, really can't wait to see all those lovely fish they have irl. Will have to exhibit some real restraint 😂 It's nice to go there knowing that I have a little bit of space to fill though.
> 
> I get the feeling those emerald otos are real £££ when they do appear, so definitely something for further in the future. They'd make a fantastic breeding project. I love those green darter tetra too, anything luminious green and interesting like that deserves a place on the "love to keep" list. I have a secret hankering with my next blackwater wabi-kusa pond tank to keep those with dicrossus and one or two other slightly odd SA fish.



If you ever find any Green Darters, let me know, I'd love some of them!!


----------



## Conort2

shangman said:


> So a shop that orders wild-caught fish will buy some wild cardinals, and in the bag there'll be a few other random fish in it?


Sometimes, but not always. Odd tetras often come in with cardinals and sometimes the odd small apisto if you’re lucky.


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## Conort2

Wookii said:


> If you ever find any Green Darters, let me know, I'd love some of them!!


They’re on my list as well, I’ve asked a few people to bring some in if they see them so I’ll give you a heads up if they ever do.


----------



## shangman

Wookii said:


> If you ever find any Green Darters, let me know, I'd love some of them!!


They're sooooooooooo cuteeeeee! Darter tetras are just fascinating. Not surprised that both you and @Conort2 are also after some!



Conort2 said:


> They’re on my list as well, I’ve asked a few people to bring some in if they see them so I’ll give you a heads up if they ever do.


Yes please, if they became available I'd set up my blackwater remarkably quickly. Only fish with funny faces or weird colours need apply.

Are there any other fascinating fish you're after? No competing, but you have great taste and I love hearing about what's possible to keep.


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## Conort2

shangman said:


> Are there any other fascinating fish you're after?


I’m pretty much all done now, there’s only so many fish I can fit in that 400l. Will add some of  the darter characins if they ever appear anywhere and also hyphessobrycon peugoti but they’re so rare it may never happen unfortunately. I know pier aquatics got some in a while ago but I’ve not heard of any others around since.


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## shangman

Conort2 said:


> I’m pretty much all done now, there’s only so many fish I can fit in that 400l. Will add some of  the darter characins if they ever appear anywhere and also hyphessobrycon peugoti but they’re so rare it may never happen unfortunately. I know pier aquatics got some in a while ago but I’ve not heard of any others around since.


You do already have an amazing selection of fish in there. It's nice to have a few almost-impossible fish on the list I think, hopefully you'll get a nice surprise one day!


----------



## shangman

So every day this week I've been monitoring the CO2 and it is really weird and variable. From what I can tell, every morning when the CO2 comes on (8am), the bubble count is either faster or slower than what I sent it at the day before, and I have to adjust it back to the approx. level it should be. I don't really know why it's doing that or what to do to change it, tbh I'm thinking of just buying a new regulator (this one was second hand) so I don't have to worry, and then later on can fiddle with this one and see if I can get it working. Some of my plants are doing well but certainly not all, especially the stem plants at the back so I really need to get it up to scratch, and the "carpet" at the front which is just a pile of dying plants atm. 

The flow seems good though (I moved the drop checker and it was bright green at the back in the afternoon once the CO2 level was right, I add 35ml ferts every day and the light is at 50% so I think it's the regulator. I haven't had hardly any algae yet (just a bit in the mosses at the top) and I really want to sort this out. It's just obviously things are dodgy but I've checked all the connections for leaks, and once I've redialed the CO2 things seem fine but clearly it's quite unstable like this. I also have a full CO2 bottle so with the new reg I'll put it with that too which hopefully will help!


----------



## shangman

OK been fiddling with the co2 again and got it up to a higher rate again, the dropchecker is properly lime green and there are bubbles all over the tank, and my anubias is pearling a lot. We'll see if tomorrow morning the rate resets itself again, if it does then I'll get a new regulator.

The only thing is that in the back right corner there are significantly less bubbles, a few but not that many. Due to the positioning of the wood I have no idea how to get more co2 bubbles there, even with another powerhead or something I can't really see where I'd position that to make a difference. Currently my CO2 comes out of a jet lily pipe rather than a normal one, so I'm going to try to swap those over and see if that wider shape helps spread co2 any better.

What do you guys do about "dead corners"? Originally I wanted loads of stems there but maybe that is the wrong thing to try with this giant wood in the way. Maybe I should put an echinodorus there and some grass or something else easy and the stems can be a bit more in the middle where they won't suffer. Another kinda-mad idea is to get the new regulator for my main in-line co2, and then had a little separate diffuser at the back left corner (there is the second lily pipe above it to distribute across the whole back). Probably overkill but I'm not sure how else to deal with it.

The back left corner seems ok, the co2 goes over the wood and down there, lots of lovely bubbles.


----------



## bazz

C. Balansae for dark low flow corners, as long as your not in any hurry.
Cheers!


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## shangman

bazz said:


> C. Balansae for dark low flow corners, as long as your not in any hurry.
> Cheers!


Aha! Of course! Crypts! That is a good suggestion thank you. Balansae is particularly beautiful too 😍


----------



## shangman

So I've been monitoring the CO2 and definitely every morning it's completely different, and every day I have to reset it. I think I reset it slightly too high yesterday as I had my first jumper - an amano shrimp almost 2m from the tank! But luckily my boyfriend noticed it and it went straight back in the tank alive and kicking. I've ordered a new regulator for piece of mind, risking the fish is NOT IT. I'm hopeful the regulator I have now can be fixed with a clean or something, but I don't feel confident enough doing it without a real backup. If I can fix it, it can just go on another tank maybe (the 45L? 👀).

Luckily I got a bit of work in so have a bit of money for that, I also splashed out on 2 pairs of 16/22 double taps to go on my inlet, so I can take that off and add a hose to suck all the mulm out. The mulm will all go into the prefilter, which immediately after I'll take out and clean, I think it'll be much more efficient this way and I can save any shrimps that get sucked in too. I hate siphoning this big tank with a bucket, it doesn't feel like I ever get enough out. 

Will take a photo of the tank today, some things are growing (anibias and scismatoglotis have new leaves, yay!), but also some things look awful (monte carlo) which I think I might just remove, there are some green tips but I feel it's just gonna screw the water quality and promote algae. As soon as I get this new regulartor I'm going to buy some new plants to fill in the massive gaps.


----------



## Wookii

Probably the needle valve on the CO2 variability - the one that come with the regs, like the CO2 Art ones, are crap. I had the same issue on my CO2 Art Elite reg.

I got this needle value eventually, and ran it online after the reg, and it’s been faultless for me:









						Camozzi Precision Flow Controller
					

The Camozzi Precision flow controller is used to control your CO2 dosing with maximum control. It can even deliver rates even as low as 1 bubble per 5 seconds.




					www.co2supermarket.co.uk


----------



## shangman

Wookii said:


> Probably the needle valve on the CO2 variability - the one that come with the regs, like the CO2 Art ones, are crap. I had the same issue on my CO2 Art Elite reg.
> 
> I got this needle value eventually, and ran it online after the reg, and it’s been faultless for me:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camozzi Precision Flow Controller
> 
> 
> The Camozzi Precision flow controller is used to control your CO2 dosing with maximum control. It can even deliver rates even as low as 1 bubble per 5 seconds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.co2supermarket.co.uk


Aha! Big thanks for this, I'll try it out. Glad it's not just a problem for me, I did a search but couldn't find much which made me more worried lol. What a shame that the ones they come with have this problem, co2 is stressful enough!


----------



## Gill

Wookii said:


> If you ever find any Green Darters, let me know, I'd love some of them!!


bardills have the standard darters in at the moment.


----------



## shangman

Gill said:


> bardills have the standard darters in at the moment.


ooooh these darters are so cute, if I didn't already have the pygmy cories these would've been a great fish to keep! I'm so jealous of all the great fish shops you seem to have close!


----------



## shangman

Tank updates:

On Sunday I added the 7 pygmy cories, and 2 sparkling gouramis from my dad's 45L to this tank. I'm really glad I moved them, there used to be more cories (11), and in this tank one of the gouramis immediately tried to eat a medium-sized cull shrimp, confirming my dad's suspicions that they were eating the baby crystal shrimps. There's more to this update in my other journal The Mossy Spider, the crystals now have their own tank to live in, shared with the refuge black shrimps from this tank that I've saved from the jaws of Mr Apisto (who I now call Mr Daffodil, inspired by his Narcissus-like staring at himself in the glass and lovely long orange fins).

As the pygmy corydoras were IMMEDIATELY SO CUTE AND HAPPY .... I bought 19 more yesterday. Only asked for 15 but the guy couldn't be bothered to count them all and I'm not complaining, so now I have a lovely group of 26. Honestly, what an absolute delight. The fish from the shop went in the tank, were shocked for 5 mins (I did drip acclimate), then were swimming around happily all together, wiggling joyfully, with the original pygmies joining them, and they haven't stopped since. They sometimes swim in a big school, sometimes small groups, sometimes in pairs, and often sit on the bottom and sift the sand but they're all active and using all parts of the tank. I guess they will settle down in a few weeks and I'll never see them again, but fingers crossed with this size group and scaping it will be ok. Honestly if I had a bigger tank I'd get 100. Another benefit is as they're so small, they really enhance the scale of the tank marvelously. A+ fish, would recommend.

I also bought 10 more kuhli loaches, which are so tiny - the size of matchsticks. Again, I only wanted 6 - 8, but when there's only 10 left in the shop, who am I to say no to a few more? Obviously they're very shy but they've come out to eat sinking loach pellets which is a great start.

The sparkling gouramis are a bit hmmmmm right now because the apistos don't like them, and seem to single them out to chase more than the other fish, it seems the apistos understand that they are more of a threat than the other peaceful fish. On the other hand they seem to invite it, because they often follow Mr Daffodil around curiously, and then get chased when he realises it, though he hasn't actually got them. I wish I had space for another nano tank that they could live in as a group alone, but I don't. I think things will be alright long term once my plants have grown in more (buying more plants today to fill in the gaps left by co2 dodginess), they like to really hide and ambush.

Finally... Ms Apisto has confirmed that they can indeed breed and have eggs hatch in this 50/50 rain/tap tank, by coming out this morning with an enormous group of babies. They're currently nomming on the wood, hopefully there's some good microfauna in there for them. Not sure how many, if any, will make it, but she's scaring every fish away successfully right now, and I'm adding a little extra live food daily to keep the others satisfied.

Pics tonight, going to finally harass my partner enough to get the camera out as my phone is really not up to the job.


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## Wolf6

shangman said:


> I guess they will settle down in a few weeks and I'll never see them again, but fingers crossed with this size group and scaping it will be ok. Honestly if I had a bigger tank I'd get 100. Another benefit is as they're so small, they really enhance the scale of the tank marvelously. A+ fish, would recommend.


Much as I love them, I wont get them again for this very reason. They are amazingly cute, but like the x-files, I have to believe they are out there in my tank as I only catch glimpses of them. There are 10 or so in my 50l tank but I actually believed them dead for a long time, until for some reason the whole group came out of the foliage a month or so ago and to my surprise all were still present. They all looked happy enough, not skinny, so I'm guessing they are just happy where they are, but for me it means I'll get fish a bit less shy next time, because this is somewhat extreme  I see one or 2 occasionally resting here and there but thats it


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## shangman

Wolf6 said:


> Much as I love them, I wont get them again for this very reason. They are amazingly cute, but like the x-files, I have to believe they are out there in my tank as I only catch glimpses of them. There are 10 or so in my 50l tank but I actually believed them dead for a long time, until for some reason the whole group came out of the foliage a month or so ago and to my surprise all were still present. They all looked happy enough, not skinny, so I'm guessing they are just happy where they are, but for me it means I'll get fish a bit less shy next time, because this is somewhat extreme  I see one or 2 occasionally resting here and there but thats it


This has been my experience with them in my 45L where I originally had 11, they swam as a little school quite often for a few months and then stopped and hardly ever moved, and it seems at some point 4 of them died. I felt like they really needed more space, in the 45L a big bit of wood dominates so there wasn't as much free swimming space as I'd like. I've seen videos on youtube where they were in big groups and wondered whether that would make a difference too, I like the idea of big schools of tiny fish. And also keeping them with tetras, as I've noticed a significant increase in confidence in my other fish with the tetras around acting as dither fish, and making sure there's lots of shady areas and leaves (they used to love hiding in the leaf litter)

This group of 26 in my bigger tank is a test to see if they will still become lazy, or if more space, larger numbers and a scape designed to make the fish feel safe actually will make a difference long term. I'm hoping it does, but I know they might just end up being rather shy anyway. I'm used to it though, I'm lucky if I see a kuhli a few times a week! They are super active in the tank today, still all over in varying sizes of groups, they are really using the whole tank top to bottom front to back, very funny though Ms Apisto is not pleased that she keeps having to shoo them away from her babies.


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## Wookii

shangman said:


> This has been my experience with them in my 45L where I originally had 11, they swam as a little school quite often for a few months and then stopped and hardly ever moved, and it seems at some point 4 of them died. I felt like they really needed more space, in the 45L a big bit of wood dominates so there wasn't as much free swimming space as I'd like. I've seen videos on youtube where they were in big groups and wondered whether that would make a difference too, I like the idea of big schools of tiny fish. And also keeping them with tetras, as I've noticed a significant increase in confidence in my other fish with the tetras around acting as dither fish, and making sure there's lots of shady areas and leaves (they used to love hiding in the leaf litter)
> 
> This group of 26 in my bigger tank is a test to see if they will still become lazy, or if more space, larger numbers and a scape designed to make the fish feel safe actually will make a difference long term. I'm hoping it does, but I know they might just end up being rather shy anyway. I'm used to it though, I'm lucky if I see a kuhli a few times a week! They are super active in the tank today, still all over in varying sizes of groups, they are really using the whole tank top to bottom front to back, very funny though Ms Apisto is not pleased that she keeps having to shoo them away from her babies.



It will be interesting to see how you get on with such a large group of them. My experience with 14 of them is similar to @Wolf6's - they find a nice dark place to bed down at the back of the tank, and rarely come out unless there's some food in the offing.

I also bought them originally as a bottom feeding Cory, so I was a bit miffed when I first got them that they clearly hadn't read the Cory instruction manual and instead preferred to play at being a mid-water tetra most of the time. They are very cute though, so I forgave them . .  eventually.


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## shangman

Wookii said:


> I also bought them originally as a bottom feeding Cory, so I was a bit miffed when I first got them that they clearly hadn't read the Cory instruction manual and instead preferred to play at being a mid-water tetra most of the time. They are very cute though, so I forgave them . .  eventually.


Whoops! 😂 I used to think the pygmies weren't very good because they weren't like normal cories (which were my favourite fish as a young kid), and if the apistos didn't hate normal cories I would've definitely got some corydoras habrosus, but I really love the pygmies now for their special hybrid behaviour. They make even better tetras than tetras sometimes, the way they play with eachother is so sweet, completely forgiveable! They just seem to shake with excitement, there's something extra charming about them.

They're very interesting so far, they're spending most of their time in midwater and exploring the tank in two groups. There's usually one or two off on their own too. Every now and again a group lies on the bottom, and then one twitches and they all swim up into a school again to do some more swimming. They don't mind the flow much either! They really make the tank feel fully stocked and brimming with life.


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## shangman

Another question for this morning... my amanos are quite shy and sedentary in the 180. When they were in the smaller tank with just cherries and snails if I put food in BANG they were there in a flash pushing everything else out of the way and squqabble with eachother, but here they sit in one place in a group (about 8-10) on the wood and hardly do anything during the day. They are rather large too, it's not like Mr Apisto could get any of them, they're the same size! They have been successfully molting, and none have died in the tank. I guess it could be the co2, but other people's amanos swim about a lot right and aren't shy? I have had 2 jump out in the past 2 weeks, but luckily right in front of me so they survived fine, I've had a dodgy regulator which made the CO2 fluctuate a lot (sometimes very high) which I think did that.

I have a few options I think (let me know if you think there are other good ones) - 1. do nothing and wait, 2. add more to see if that makes them more confident, 3. put them in my 45L (which tbh has a lot of algae and now is tapwater) and don't bother with them in the 180L. I miss their funny rude behaviour!


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## ScareCrow

This could be total rubbish but I found with cherries they were more active when they'd not been fed for a couple of days. I'm sure I've read hungry shrimp = active shrimp. I wonder if they're grazing on the film that normally forms on wood in the early stages or diatoms etc. Whereas in your more mature tank, background levels of food were less plentiful and so they were more reliant on inputs of food.


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## Wookii

Amanos that I've had in the past have been pretty lazy too, spending most of their time hanging around upside down on pieces of wood - my Cherries are much more industrious.


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## shangman

ScareCrow said:


> This could be total rubbish but I found with cherries they were more active when they'd not been fed for a couple of days. I'm sure I've read hungry shrimp = active shrimp. I wonder if they're grazing on the film that normally forms on wood in the early stages or diatoms etc. Whereas in your more mature tank, background levels of food were less plentiful and so they were more reliant on inputs of food.


Ahh this is very possible, they do live exclusively on the wood, maybe the biofilm and diatoms are plentiful enough. And before they were all in a 23L while I was setting up the 180, so there probably wasn't much spare going around, they did used to eat my hydrocotyle which I think is a sign they wanted more nosh. Maybe this is a good excuse to get some more then... I'm currently very into adding more of the creatures I have and seeing how that changes their behaviour.



Wookii said:


> Amanos that I've had in the past have been pretty lazy too, spending most of their time hanging around upside down on pieces of wood - my Cherries are much more industrious.


Yours sound just like mine, maybe it's not a problem for me to try to fix. They seem to really love the big bit of wood, I've seen them on the sand only twice this whole time. Sadly my cherries might have once been industrious, but they get gobbled when they come out during the day. I have found a few more black shrimps that seem to have managed to stay away from Mr. Daffodil, annoyingly they're wiley enough that I can't seem to catch them to go in their own tank either!


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## aec34

shangman said:


> they did used to eat my hydrocotyle which I think is a sign they wanted more nosh


Glad it’s not just mine that do this! I wonder that feeding them nettles has given them a liking for leaves. Slightly comically occasionally I see shrimps gripping onto little floating plants, and then sinking slowly still gripping before panicking and letting go.


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## shangman

aec34 said:


> Glad it’s not just mine that do this! I wonder that feeding them nettles has given them a liking for leaves. Slightly comically occasionally I see shrimps gripping onto little floating plants, and then sinking slowly still gripping before panicking and letting go.


I think they just know that leaves are tasty, though I do feed them a steamed leaf every now and again so maybe they got a taste of it from that. Mine ate all my red root floaters too, doing exactly what you said - grabbing them from the surface, pulling them down and them nomming on them, very funny if a little annoying, luckily they didn't do it to all the floaters! The difficulty with feeding them is that any algae or sinking wafers/pellets would have the big ones would come along and nab them, and then the smaller ones would be left without, so I guess they just went for the tastier leaves.


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## Wolf6

I had 4 amanos left after quite a few years, rarely saw those, recently got 6 new ones from someone moving house, and all of a sudden I see them lots again (new ones and old ones). I suspect it is largely a numbers thing, but they havent been in my tank for very long so maybe its just the settling phase and these too will start hiding more. I also regularly put out courgette pieces, mostly for my otto's but its often full of amano's as well since the new ones were added.


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## shangman

JESUS CHRIST 😨😨😨 I was just looking in the tank admiring the pygmies and wishing the amanos would come out more and an amano jumped out and hit me on the head!!!! Made me shriek!

On the upside at least I was able to put it back in again. I am rather worried about them jumping when I'm not around and dying, so far they've had very good timing. Will have to lower the water a bit more and add more plants at the top. I am still adjusting the CO2 with this new regulator, maybe it's a bit too high! They literally NEVER jumped out of the 23L, even though it was small and topped up almost to the very top. Another vote for moving this lot to the lowtech 45L perhaps. Could it be that these big ones aren't happy cos they're old and don't like the new co2, and younger ones might get used to it easier? Everyone seems to keep them so tehy can't all be jumping out.



Wolf6 said:


> I had 4 amanos left after quite a few years, rarely saw those, recently got 6 new ones from someone moving house, and all of a sudden I see them lots again (new ones and old ones). I suspect it is largely a numbers thing, but they havent been in my tank for very long so maybe its just the settling phase and these too will start hiding more. I also regularly put out courgette pieces, mostly for my otto's but its often full of amano's as well since the new ones were added.


I will try some courgette, we have loads atm and the otos did used to love them. I do wonder whether some young ones to get the old ones going is the answer, though I don't want to buy them just to see them all jump out! When they were in the 23L they never became very shy and quiet, hopefully yours stay interested for a long time.


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## Wookii

shangman said:


> JESUS CHRIST 😨😨😨 I was just looking in the tank admiring the pygmies and wishing the amanos would come out more and an amano jumped out and hit me on the head!!!! Made me shriek!



Oh Rosie, I wish I'd been a fly on the wall for that one!!  🤣



shangman said:


> On the upside at least I was able to put it back in again. I am rather worried about them jumping when I'm not around and dying, so far they've had very good timing. Will have to lower the water a bit more and add more plants at the top. I am still adjusting the CO2 with this new regulator, maybe it's a bit too high! They literally NEVER jumped out of the 23L, even though it was small and topped up almost to the very top. Another vote for moving this lot to the lowtech 45L perhaps. Could it be that these big ones aren't happy cos they're old and don't like the new co2, and younger ones might get used to it easier? Everyone seems to keep them so tehy can't all be jumping out.
> 
> 
> I will try some courgette, we have loads atm and the otos did used to love them. I do wonder whether some young ones to get the old ones going is the answer, though I don't want to buy them just to see them all jump out! When they were in the 23L they never became very shy and quiet, hopefully yours stay interested for a long time.



I think amano's just suddenly take it in their tiny minds, that the grass might be greener elsewhere sometimes. By sheer coincidence, I had a case this week - we were putting the kids to bed, and my eldest shouted "Daddy there's a shrimp on the floor". This amano had crawled 8ft from the low tech tank in his brothers room, another 10 feet down the landing, and another 6 feet across his bedroom floor. How it didn't get stood on with three crazy kids stampeding up and down the landing, I have no idea! I put the shrimp back in the tank, so hopefully she'll have realised she's already reached the promised land!


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## bazz

shangman said:


> JESUS CHRIST 😨😨😨 I was just looking in the tank admiring the pygmies and wishing the amanos would come out more and an amano jumped out and hit me on the head!!!! Made me shriek!


🤣🤣🤣


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## Courtneybst

Classic shrimp mischievousness! 😂


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## shangman

Wookii said:


> Oh Rosie, I wish I'd been a fly on the wall for that one!!  🤣


Honestly it was quite a moment... I didn't expect to interact with nature in the aquarium... _outside _the aquarium quite like that!!

I decided to take it as a hint and have moved all my amanos over to my 45L for now. I would like to add some more again in the future, but I'll wait until the tank is more thickly and fully planted... in case that helps somehow idk. Your amano is a real adventurer 😂 They definitely have a can-do attitude.



Courtneybst said:


> Classic shrimp mischievousness! 😂


That's why we love them!! 😂


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## shangman

I've been doing all sorts of tank stuff recently, and today I moved the smaller bit of wood on the right about a bit and kicked up loads of aquasoil dust at the same time. After getting a load out & cleaning the filter, I realised it actually looks quite cool to photograph. So after taking a few pics with the phone (the first one), I got out my boyfriend's cameras and lenses and tried a few things out (all the rest). All are blurry, but it was really fun and I'll definitely keep trying!


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## aec34

Ooooo @shangman this makes me want some tiny fish so much!


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## shangman

aec34 said:


> Ooooo @shangman this makes me want some tiny fish so much!


Yes!! Tiny fish are GREAT (especially pygmy corydoras which are right up there on the best fish list for me). If/when the cardinals get moved to the future blackwater tank, I'm definitely getting a nice big group of mosquito rasboras or hummingbird tetras, something tiny. In a tank like mine that's medium-large, it makes it look everything so much bigger, and the fish really appreciate the space and have loads of fun!! They make the apistos look enormous too which I really like, cos really the apistos aren't that big at all, despite their big fish energy.

The pygmies get the otos excited so they school together, and the otos eat much more enthusiastically with the pygmies around which is another bonus. I never used to see the smaller group of pygmies eat much in the nano, they were very quiet and still most of the time. In this tank they eat all the time, snuffling in the sand and on every surface in the tank, often in big groups.

Also currently loving the baby khuli loaches which are the size of matchsticks (you cna just about see one in the bottom right of the big Mr Daffodil photo above). For comparison my adult ones are the size of a chunky IKEA pencil. The babies are much bolder than the adults and come out during the day to eat sinking pellets and wiggle as much as possible. I hope they keep this boldness when the grow up!


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## shangman

Hooray, I totally screwed up! Insert much swearing here!

Last Thursday I went out with my dad and my aquarium friend for a very fun fish extravanganza and at the end of the day we got to our last fish shop. I mentioned wanting otos and the guy was like HOW MANY? and I was tired and excited so I said 5 but only looked in the tank for 30 seconds, I didn't really do my due diligence but this is known as a good shop I thought. I got them home and just acclimated them and put them in. I noticed one had a white patch on it's head, but I googled it and forums (not this one) with v similar patches said that otos get grazed by hardscape and will be fine so I didn't worry and put them in (in the 2 threads I found the otos were fine and recovered). It was a flat patch, not raised or fluffy or looking too bad. 

Well obvious, that was a VERY STUPID THING TO DO.

Today I found one oto dead amoungst the plants, the body was patchy white all over (not sure how long it has been there for tho, could be from last night which made it whiter). Then I noticed the original oto with the white mark still has it and it seems much deeper. This is where the swearing began. I've put this oto in my quarantine tank which some shrimp and snails currently live in, I don't expect it to live though. I can try to take a picture but it is hard to get the angle right. It is still active but idk if I had what it has I wouldn't be feeling very optimistic about my options. 

I suspect columnaris and I'm very worried. Tonight I've done a big mulm siphon and cleaned the filter, and tomorrow I will do another 50% water change (don't have the rainwater at home to do it today). I was thinking of doing it all rainwater to get the tank acidity down. The rest of the otos that came with this group all have no blemishes and are acting fine, and all of my other fish are appearing very active, healthy, shiny, fat, etc. But obviously I'm bracing for things to go t*ts up very suddenly. I've also turned the temp down to 23. I can't dose salt cos of the otos and kuhlis.

Is there anything else I can do to try to weather the storm? Will 100% always quarantine from now on goodness, I especially don't want to lose my Apisto pair but losing any of them will be very upsetting. It was just being careless cos I was tired at the end of the day


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## ScareCrow

My personal take and one that's easier said than done is I'd try to avoid panicking and making sudden changes. If you change several parameters in quick succession It'll likely stress the fish, lower their immune system and make them more susceptible to infection. I'd hold off on the water change, add some alder cones, oak leaves or anything that will release tannins gradually and monitor the situation.


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## shangman

That makes sense thank you for the reminder, it's sooo easy to panic with fish! 😭

Luckily there are a lot of leaves in there already and I'll add a nice big pile extra, I think I still have a good bad of oak leaves left.


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## shangman

I've been observing the tank a lot since this oto issue started, so far there doesn't seem to be any other fish with any weird marks on them yet. One of the new otos is particularly fat which I'm suspicious of but idk if it's related, not sure about that one. The oto with a hole in its head died yesterday, poor thing (in the quarantine tank).

I did notice this morning though that my pygmy cories are breeding, I watched a big female and a small male making a T and then she wiggled all over some moss. They're often going around together in pairs, with other males tryingto join and then giving up.

Do anyone elses pygmy cories and kuhli loaches go absolutely made for sinking algae wafers? I put some in for the otos but before the otos ever have a go (they seem to prefer the dried leaves tbh), the otos and kuhlis find them and go mad for it. And even Mr Daffodil will come along and try and steal it and nibble a load. My kuhlis also love to scavenge, in the past 2 weeks I've caught one shoving it's head in a dead ramshorn snail shell and eating all the meat inside to leave an empty shell, and a group of 3 wiggling up to a dead shrimp (I was about to remove it) and leaving only a thin shell as if it was a molt. Then a snail ate the last of the shell. These new babies are very bold and ravenous which is nice.

Fingers crossed everything stays ok and I don't get any big dieoffs. The fish are so nice and happy and healthy (seemingly), I will always quarantine from now on, I don't want to upset this balance.

On the other hand theres SHEDLOADS of algae in the tank, but I've lowered he light and trying moving a filter to get better flow. I think I might need to get a pH pen to do a pH drop thing for the co2 to be properly correct, my drop checker is lime green but things definitely aren't right yet.


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## John q

shangman said:


> Do anyone elses pygmy cories and kuhli loaches go absolutely made for sinking algae wafers?


Can't directly answer for the above fish but my panda Cory's go mental for algae wafers, as do the panda garra's. Keith, the female bristlenose usually ends up muscling in and finishes them before they manage to devour everything. 

Talking of the garra's, they love a good snail if one happens to die in the tank, which thankfully doesn't happen too often.


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## NatalieHurrell

John Q you have a female Bristlenose called Keith?! 

On another note, I know the Garra Flavatra are found in both fast and slow moving water.  What sort of flow do you keep yours in and are they Amano shrimp safe?  Thanks, Nat.


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## John q

Sorry for the journal highjack @shangman


NatalieHurrell said:


> What sort of flow do you keep yours in and are they Amano shrimp safe?



Yes my wife and daughter pick the fish names and they always seem to be male oriented.
I have 4 garra's in 2 different tanks, both have fairly fast flow, they often enjoy surfing the current.
Don't have any amano shrimp but will be adding some at the weekend. 
The only aggression I've ever seen from them is towards each other or dead snails, so I'm not particularly worried about them with the garra unless the shrimp die, then suspect they'll be dining on Teppanyaki shrimp.


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## NatalieHurrell

Fine dining indeed!


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## NatalieHurrell

And yes, sorry for the journal hijack!


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## shangman

John q said:


> Can't directly answer for the above fish but my panda Cory's go mental for algae wafers, as do the panda garra's. Keith, the female bristlenose usually ends up muscling in and finishes them before they manage to devour everything.
> 
> Talking of the garra's, they love a good snail if one happens to die in the tank, which thankfully doesn't happen too often.
> View attachment 173286


That panda garra is lovely, they're definitely on my list of fish to try and keep one day, I've heard and they have really funny arguments with eachother! Seems like a dead snail in our tanks is not such a bad thing for the little loaches we keep. Do yuo keep them in an open-top tank, or covered?



NatalieHurrell said:


> And yes, sorry for the journal hijack!



No worries at all!! All sharing on here is awesome, that's what it's for  If anyone wants to chat with eachother on here I think that's awesome


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## John q

They are in a lided tank shangman but think they'd be fine in a open top if the water level was maybe an inch or so below the glass.

They certainly have character, when they were younger and presumably deciding who the dominante one was they would quarrel fairly often, most of the time these were harmless and quite funny to watch but every now and then they'd have a full on battle. 
You can tell when things are serious, the colour drains from them completely and they turn grey. Luckily no serious harm was ever done and they now happily hang out together.


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## shangman

John q said:


> They are in a lided tank shangman but think they'd be fine in a open top if the water level was maybe an inch or so below the glass.
> 
> They certainly have character, when they were younger and presumably deciding who the dominante one was they would quarrel fairly often, most of the time these were harmless and quite funny to watch but every now and then they'd have a full on battle.
> You can tell when things are serious, the colour drains from them completely and they turn grey. Luckily no serious harm was ever done and they now happily hang out together.


Oh that sounds so fun and interesting, a group of them sounds like a lovely tank addition!! You should make a journal for their tank, it'd be great to see them and how they live in your tank )))


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## shangman

This morning I woke up to a tank fullllllll of spirogyra. It's been slowly growing for a few weeks but went BANG today. I think this is because..

a) I pulled out the plug of the twinstar accidentally and broke the programming so the light was at 100% for a few days
b) 2 days ago I swapped the jet lily pipe by co2 was coming out of, and replaced it with a normal lily pipe because I thought it would make the co2 come out broader and get it to go around the tank better. But it actually just pushed co2 straight to the top.
c) also 2 days ago I did a pre-filter cleaning and ever since my main filter has been a bit slow, whereas I realised that my secondary flow-only filter is putting out a lot more flow/power
d) I moved the back flow-only filter from the back-right, to the back-left. I think that this configuration is better than the old one, but in combination with the above just made it worse.

So today I did this:
a) swapped the filters so the flow-filter is front-right, and the slower media-filter is back left
b) moved the co2 diffuser to this flow-filter. The co2 has always been in this front-right position, but now on a filter with more ommph
c) moved the jet lilypipe to the front-right again, so the water+ co2 really comes out powerfully.
d) whacked the co2 up because I could see the bubbles were not saturating the tank as much. It's now properly lime green. Just got to keep watching the fish today to make sure it hasn't been overdone.
e) removed as much algae as possible and trimmed any rubbish leaves.

Fingers crossed all of this makes a difference, the reason I haven't been posting many pics of this tank is that I've had subtle algae issues and slow growth the whole time. I've got a ~feeling~ that this configuration is right now, but we'll see!! I will post a FTS tomorrow after the waterchange so if/when things improve I can show off the difference


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## shangman

I'm down 4 otos out of my 5 new ones now, the first two had that nasty white infection, but the second two have had no marks on them, I think maybe it's that classic thing where they were starved for too long, poor babies. I forgot to ask the shop how long they'd had them in for cos I was tired, won't make that mistake again. Not sure if the last one will survive, I guess we'll see. So far no other fish or bigger otos seem ill, but I'm still going to wait a good month before adding any other fish to make sure.




I keep forgetting to take a photo, this si with the light on a bit low in the evening in the ramp down.

On the upside all the moving around of filters and upping the co2 has made a big improvement in the tank - there is no longer any melting!! And along with that, all plants are putting out new leaves finally, and there's a lot more pearling. There is still a lot of hair algae (see photo below) but it's growing much more slowly now. I'm planning on doing a blackout this weekend to give it a shock, this worked well for me in my lowtechs and I've heard in hightechs it works even better. I really hate how bits get stuck in the algae andthere's just loads of crap floating about the tank, urghhhh.

I'm planning to add 10 wild cardinals so I have a nice school of 20 total (once the month of waiting is over with no fish problems). I'm going to get them before I decide if I should have a school of some sort of fancy small rainbow, I think maybe with the tetras it might feel full enough. When I started this tank I kept imagining all the lovely new fish I could get and how exciting that would be, but I'm really happy with the fish I already have acting more naturally and confidently, so it's still just about adding a few more of what I have so I can get the most interesting behaviours. I used to think that acting responsibly with stocking would make for a more boring tank, but I am really enamoured by the behaviour of the fish I have now, and how much more confidently they act when I add some more. The pygmy corydoras are still bundles of joy, and seeing the kuhlis more is GREAT.

I do want to add a second female macmasteri apisto. Originally I thought I could maybe keep another pair of apistos in there but clearly that's rolling the dice and things are very nice right now, I don't want to upset that balance, or keep another tank if things go very wrong (not yet at least 👀). Apparently macmasteri are harem fish who don't form strong pair bonding so it should be ok with a second female, and I'd like one that isn't related to mix the genetics up a bit. I suppose I will get some mroe otos again at some point, but not until I know some really good ones are in stock which have been at the shop for a month minimum.

Eventually I'd also quite like some bamboo shrimp, as the flow is high and right in the direction of the big wood, so I think they'd do well, and it's easy to feed that area. Would vampire shrimp work as well as bamboo shrimp? They look amazing but can they climb a lot? I think this is a creature for when the planting and everything is going really well though, a final stocking for in a few months. Maybe a Christmas present to myself

Finaly, I wanted to show off this amazing little lotus I bought from World of Water, it's put out two new leaves and I'm so glad I fixed the co2 so it didn't melt. I wasn't planning on adding any lotus to this tank, but I simply couldn't resist, this is my favourite plant from Christel's book! Hopefully once the tnak is more balanced and growing really well with less algae I can slowly raise the light and get it to put out some floating leaves (baby plantlets come out of floating leaves apparently!).


----------



## John q

shangman said:


> or keep another tank if things go very wrong (not yet at least 👀).


To late mate, you're already on the slippery slope by letting that thought pop into your head 😆


----------



## shangman

John q said:


> To late mate, you're already on the slippery slope by letting that thought pop into your head 😆


I have the tank in the shed (100lx40dx30h), and the wood, and the plans for plants & stocking (100% rainwater, blackwater, wabi kusa emergents etc)... but things have been complicated by the flat downstairs from us (we're the top flat in a 2-flat maisonette) suddenly became potentially available to buy, so all money + time is going into trying to get that right now. Of couse if we did get that, then I could have a wonderful large tank and in the renovations plumb it into the house and do a big roof rainwater collection system and all sorts of fabulous stuff like that, so things are on hold for a little while for a good reason. Also it is good to try to get this tank under control first lol!

If it falls through, I always have the one in the shed  I really want to keep dicrossus, and since I don't think they'll fit in this tank, they'll have to go in another!!


----------



## John q

Well I hope the potential purchase works out and you are indeed wise to concentrate on the current newly set up tank.


----------



## DeepMetropolis

I just love that lotus. If I have the right place for it I would definitely try it someday.


----------



## shangman

John q said:


> Well I hope the potential purchase works out and you are indeed wise to concentrate on the current newly set up tank.


Thank you, big fingers crossed! It would so good, I'm already fantasising about all the lovely tanks we could keep if we had the whole space. And an amazing pond/waterfeature in the garden  

And honestly, focusing on this tank, and one of my other smaller tanks (45L which is a mess right now and needs a good rescape) and getting them under some control so weekly maintenence keeps them going well is definitely a priority. Now it seems like real life is finally slowly returning I want to enjoy the aquariums as part of my life, rather than most of it as it has been during covid. It's been the best hobby to discover and learn and enjoy over this past year and a half, and I want to continue it forever so making sure it fits into life when things are more busy is an important step I think. 

And ignoring the scape side, I've still got to decorate the cabinet! That's the next big job, I'm currently planning some sort of Chinoserie-style aquatic painting lol.



DeepMetropolis said:


> I just love that lotus. If I have the right place for it I would definitely try it someday.


Thanks! It is a beauty. It doesn't really fit in with the style of this scape but I just couldn't resist, especially since Brexit has made it so hard to find rarer plants. Every interesting plant found must be snapped up!


----------



## shangman

A leaf that broke off from the micrantha, I just can't get over the multicoloured spots! Pink, green, purple deliciousness
​


----------



## shangman

I did a blackout which ended today, and it's gone quite well. While there is some spyro left, the vast majority of it is gone. I'm going to wait a week to see if it returns and needs another blast (the Tom Barr method says to do it several times to really weaken the algae before it goes), but I also want to make sure my plants will be ok. Most plants seem fine, just the lotus has very long stems, and the stem plants at the back are a bit elongated. I have some bba on the top-half of the tank (see photo below), so I'm going to turn my attention to that next. I think by painting it with excel during a water change, and just trimming it off (on the moss which the excel would kill anyway). Watching the IAPLC really made me think... I need to get my plant health up to scratch and really adjust everything better, that growth is amazing no matter the layout. If they can do it I can, just need to keep watching and slowly adjusting.

When Mr Apisto started eating the nice black cherries in the tank, I rescued 6 of them (all I could find over several days), and put them in a fish-free tank. I thought that since Mr Daffodil had lived with a load of cull shrimp in his other tank he wouldn't eat the black ones (He never bothered to try to eat the culls in that tank), but he really loved them.... a lot.

I decided instead to put some cull shrimp (which live outside in a pot-pond) in this tank to help eat algae, and I thought if he didn't notice them in the small one, maybe they will be ok in this one. Or maybe they will be eaten and Mr Daffodil will have some fun idk. Interestingly, some of them have turned into bright red adults. Easy pickings for Mr Daffodil, you might think, but there's about 5 big adults in there now who are out all the time and seem totally fine. They live on the top-half of the tank amoungst moss and buce. I thought this was really strange, surely a red cherry is very easy to see and eat, until I realised that from below, they just look like the underside of most of my buces, which are red underneath... so bright red cherries end up camoflaging really well. I catch several babies whenever I clean the filter, so hopefully I will end up with a clever little cherry colony after all  The top red thing is a shrimp, and below it is a buce leaf to see what I mean!


----------



## shangman

Another update to say that the changes in flow and increase in CO2 even more after the blackout (just a tiny tiny touch of the dial) seem to have worked really well, things are definitely growing better and faster. I still think I might need to up it a tiny bit more, as my java fern and bolbitis are still not growing right yet, but we'll see, I think maybe just some stability for a few weeks will tell me a lot though so holding off for now. I also realised I should've been dosing 40ml of ferts a day and was doing more like 30, so will see if that makes a difference starting this week. Some bits of the tank are actually starting to look.... nice, finally. Hopefully this is an upward tragectory now towards great plant health. The hair algae is also definitely receeding now, you can see the mosses on the top more clearly. I also added some more cull red cherry shrimps that live on the top, maybe they help a little. Yesterday I did a bit of a rejig to define the different areas more because things were looking off, I think it's looking better now, and now I can really see where I need some new plants and where I can just let things grow into niceness. I still have a lot of leaves in the back which is blocking the light to the lower archway, but that'll go away in a bit when the otos finish eating them.




This wood section is my favourite, it looks much better irl lol. Still obsessed with the idea of bamboo shrimp feeding on this log, as it gets loads of flow.








This left area needs a lot of work, but now I've moved things around there's more light and more space (took some twigs out that were blocking being able to reach it easily). Hopefully bolbitis will start to grow well soon as that's one of my favourites and can cover many sins.

Ms Apisto is doing her eggs behaviour again, this time I have some dried bbs eggs ready to go as her last 3 broods have all died within a week and I think it's from lack of food, I won't feed them like I did with the original group (6 feedings a day with a syringe!!), but I will feed them at least once a day and see how that goes. And if they all disappear again I know it's from the other fish eating them lol. I'm on the lookout for a second female if anyone sees nice ones around, I want one that isn't related to improve genetics if they do breed lol. I really wanted another pair of apistos, but then realised actually jsut another female would be great and enough, Mr Daffodil is the King of this tank and I don't want to stress him out with any rivals.

Here's a big kuhli in the front, a rare sighting! You can really see how much bigger they are than my baby ones, who seem to not be afraid of me at all and are always out unlike the big guys.


----------



## Wookii

Looking great @shangman, very natural looking - that Lotus is a great find, I've not seen leaf colouration like that before. If you ever manage to get daughter plants off that, make sure you put me down for one!


----------



## Wolf6

Lovely natural feel, one could sit in front of this for ages and still see something new


----------



## shangman

Wookii said:


> Looking great @shangman, very natural looking - that Lotus is a great find, I've not seen leaf colouration like that before. If you ever manage to get daughter plants off that, make sure you put me down for one!


😂 I'd better make a waitlist, @Courtneybst asked as soon as I got it for a baby plantlet too. V understandable, it is so unusual and beautiful, when I first bought @Christel 's book I thought it was the most beautiful plant in the whole book and that it would be a holy grail plant to get in a few years because of Brexit, was shocked to find it only a few months later!! That extra long leaf grew tall like that over the blackout, and I'm letting it continue because apparently the leaves that reach the surface produce baby plants from that leaf. It pearls everyday which is great, but I'm not sure if my light is strong enough to get them to produce yet (it's on max 75% atm for 5 hours a day + ramp up and down), and I read in the book that they need very high light to reproduce. I will make it happen though, even if I need to get the rest of the tank doing well enough to raise the light first. 

Now we're cut off from the world I think it's our duty as passionate hobbyists to grow and pass on the nice plants we can get our hands on. I got this plant from World of Water, this was the only one of this kind they had, but they also had another lovely rare bronze micrantha lotus  and some beautiful red Barclaya longifolia which I would've got too if I had the space. All the otos I bought from there died v quickly which is really rubbish, but you can't argue with these great rare plants. Fingers crossed I don't kill it 😂



Wolf6 said:


> Lovely natural feel, one could sit in front of this for ages and still see something new


Thank you!! That'd exactly what I'm going for  Hopefully in a few months it'll be even more natural once the plants in the soil properly grow in (they were not happy with my lower co2 levels at all).

What I am really happy with is that the animals interact with the scape a lot and it feels v natural and so I do see new things all the time - the otos are eating the dried leaves in the front or sitting on the echinodorus (apparently they live with echinodorus in the wild) or upside down on the underside of the wood with the amanos, the apistos are breeding amongst the leaf pile and "forage" for shrimps amongst the moss (he rarely gets one now I think the shrimps have wised up) and ms apisto brings her babies around the moss to eat microfauna, the tetras swim through the branches and the big hole which is weirdly very satisfying especially when they go single file, the pygmies are all over the place just being adorable interacting with everything (particularly love feeding them where they swim in from around the tank and make a big enthusiastic group like tiny cute pigeons), and the kuhlis live amongst the lava rocks and often they swim all the way up the wood through the moss like tropical snakes, and the big kuhlis come along and sift big loads of sand. Getting the regime right for all the plants is taking a while but at least the fish are happy the whole time


----------



## Gill

Wookii said:


> If you ever find any Green Darters, let me know, I'd love some of them!!


Just saw this,


----------



## shangman

Gill said:


> Just saw this,
> View attachment 174176


Ohhhhmyyygodddddddd want! Can I possibly justify these guys in this tank? 😱 

Was planning on them for this future tank that I was going to set up this autumn thinking they wouldn't be around for a while, but it got bumped cos we might buy a house suddenly so things are v up in the air and am not meant to spend anything lol. I wonder how rarely they come up!! If it's super rare I do want them now, but I hope to have this tank within 3 years say. 

Looking online (at descriptions of needs of similar darters) I'd need 10/12 which is £144 + postage. I am currently skint lol, but not planning on getting anything else fish immediately and could get them as an... Early Christmas present? 😂 Clutching at lovely fish straws. 

My tank currently has:
2 apistos
9 cardinals
25 pygmy corydoras 
6 otos
15 kuhli loaches 
Plus a few shrimps of various types but not many of any 

Not sure if that's too many bottom dwellers as well (my favourite fish all are 😭), are they too similar to the pygmies? I want them but don't want the tank to feel too busy. It's currently very nice on the sand and before these appeared here I wasn't planning on any more bottom dwellers. But they look like they could be the BEST ones!! They hop! 

Probs will be gone by the time I decide, what do you guys think?


----------



## shangman

Also, related to this subject I think, I watched this documentary on wild caught fish in YouTube which was really interesting the other day. it made me appreciate trying to keep more wild caught fish, I used to feel dubious about how sustainability/ethical it was but it really answered a lot of questions well!


----------



## Wookii

Gill said:


> Just saw this,
> View attachment 174176



Thanks @Gill! Email sent - last one theres a rotten egg . . .


----------



## shangman

Wookii said:


> Thanks @Gill! Email sent - last one there a rotten egg . . .


A UKAPS run on green darters 😂


----------



## Conort2

They’re definitely around at the moment, I’ve got five reserved for me which should hopefully be with me by the end of the month. Unfortunately they were the last five as I actually wanted more and also would’ve gave you guys the heads up too.


----------



## Conort2

shangman said:


> what do you guys think?


Could definitely fit them in, the bio load on these will be minimal I recon. They also seem to be more of a mid to bottom swimmer and seem to hang on plants and structure quite a bit.

Cheers


----------



## shangman

Conort2 said:


> Could definitely fit them in, the bio load on these will be minimal I recon. They also seem to be more of a mid to bottom swimmer and seem to hang on plants and structure quite a bit.
> 
> Cheers


Excellent, that's all the encouragement I needed. Messaged to try to reserve 12, fingers crossed that happens!!!

Sometimes you just have to take advantage of things when they come... Feeling very lucky, having got my spotted lotus last month (which I thought might be a holy grail plant post-Brexit), and now these are on the cards. It's Christmas in September 🥳

Thank you again for the tip @Gill


----------



## Karmicnull

shangman said:


> I watched this documentary on wild caught fish in YouTube which was really interesting the other day. it made me appreciate trying to keep more wild caught fish, I used to feel dubious about how sustainability/ethical it was but it really answered a lot of questions well!


Thanks for sharing - really interesting.  I'd similarly been uncomfortable about the sustainability of wild caught fish, and this was enlightening.  Also loved the lyrics to the song in the annual cardinal tetra and discus festival!  Fascinated by the supply chain too.  Oh - and I now have an addition to my wishlist - those leaf fish were fabulous!


----------



## shangman

Karmicnull said:


> Thanks for sharing - really interesting.  I'd similarly been uncomfortable about the sustainability of wild caught fish, and this was enlightening.  Also loved the lyrics to the song in the annual cardinal tetra and discus festival!  Fascinated by the supply chain too.  Oh - and I now have an addition to my wishlist - those leaf fish were fabulous!


Yes it's so interesting isn't it? Really it deserves it's own thread on here rather than tucked away in this journal. So often natural resources are exploited horribly and I always assumed that wild caught fish are too, so it's great to know that this hobby is much more sustainable/less harmful than I thought. I kinda think there's a gap in the market for an aquarium business that capitalises on that sustainability message of supporting local people, supporting the environment and ecosystem they come from with wild fish and inspiring us by having a slice of nature in our own homes. My generation is so big on houseplants now, I can totally imagine aquariums becoming part of that lifestyle.

Same about the supply chains, since I have my own business where supply chains are currently a mess (thanks covid & Brexit!) and have been doing a business course over covid, it's really interesting to hear about what works and what the challenges are for this industry, I hope that they get better in the future in the way they need. That message is really important, I will avoid large-scale tank-bred fish from now on if I can and focus more on wild caught keeping.

The cardinal/discus festival was AWESOME, it's nice to know they are properly celebrated and appreciated where they're from! Those leaf fish are stunning, I started thinking while watching it if they could import just some dried leaves from the area too that matched for ultimate


----------



## ScareCrow

shangman said:


> Also, related to this subject I think, I watched this documentary on wild caught fish in YouTube which was really interesting the other day. it made me appreciate trying to keep more wild caught fish, I used to feel dubious about how sustainability/ethical it was but it really answered a lot of questions well!



Thanks for sharing this, I've watched part 1 and 2 and it covers a lot. I would say it is quite biased but having kept fish for about 20 years and as an environmental scientist by training, I'd love it to work. 
Aside from the socioeconomic and environmental reasons I think ethically there are species that are common in the aquarium trade that shouldn't be imported.
Aquarium co-op have just released this video focusing on otocinclus and how different importers process them.
Anyway thanks again for posting, as you say it would make an interesting thread as a standalone topic.


----------



## shangman

ScareCrow said:


> Thanks for sharing this, I've watched part 1 and 2 and it covers a lot. I would say it is quite biased but having kept fish for about 20 years and as an environmental scientist by training, I'd love it to work.
> Aside from the socioeconomic and environmental reasons I think ethically there are species that are common in the aquarium trade that shouldn't be imported.
> Aquarium co-op have just released this video focusing on otocinclus and how different importers process them.
> Anyway thanks again for posting, as you say it would make an interesting thread as a standalone topic.


I'd love it to work too, bring on making all our supply chains better and more transparent!! Interestingly I called up my LFS and asked them about wild cardinals, and he said as we're in London which has such hard water, he orders his cardinals from Asia where they are bred in hard water so they're more likely to do well in London tanks, which is very interesting and makes total sense. I'm going to get mine from the Fish Barn instead, my LFS said they could order them in for me but he'd need to order 300-400 and I only wanted 10. 

That video is great, thank you for the link. TBH after my latest group of otos all died rather gruesome deaths I have completely gone off them, it's clear they went through bad times to get to me. This was with cooked greens and loads of leaves and wood  I also tried to get some from my LFS before I bought that group, who said that they didn't have any atm as their latest shipments had all died very quickly in quarantine. They are lovely fish but it doesn't seem like the process to get them to us is very good atm.


----------



## Wookii

shangman said:


> my LFS said they could order them in for me but he'd need to order 300-400 and I only wanted 10.



Time for a bigger tank! 😂


----------



## shangman

Wookii said:


> Time for a bigger tank! 😂


You're a terrible influence!!! 😆 Imagine what an amazing school that would be...


Did you manage to get any darters? They told me they all sold out on the day 😓 The Quest continues!


----------



## shangman

Yesterday I had a fabulous fish friends day (with fabulous food too!) - I went to @Courtneybst 's house and saw all his beautiful tanks, and also met George Farmer who was there to film Courtney and his tanks <see the great youtube video here>. I actually live super close to Courtney (10 mins away), and we've made really good friends since I gave him my first baby apistos all the way ago in March! It was such a fun day, so nice to see people irl and hang out again, thanks for making me loads of new friends UKAPS!

In the afternoon I was finally bullied into joining aquatic social media (Courtney has been trying to convince me for ages as he's made lots of friends doing it), so say hello to @rosehipscapes on Instagram  You can finally see my face omg! I was also sorta in George's livestream yesterday which was really fun. Guess it's time to get out the camera again and take more fancy pics, will start posting tonight.

Doing all this really made me want to get this tank in order. I think I need to lower the light a bit, as all my favourite plants are quite low light, and it would really help with the algae. The big problem in this tank is the background, the back corners get quite light, but the back middle gets not much at all because the wood blocks it. I recently saw a great tank which had loads of mixed lotus in it including my gerflekt, so I'm going to add some lotus in the background (behind the hole) to grow up. Does anyone have any good suggestions for colourful or good growing not-high-light plants which can grow quite high? Are there any orange stems that won't mind too much? I would like some orange in the tank if possible. I've had enough of seeing soil, it's time to make it all really lush like it should be. I have quite a few nice plants with larger leaves, so small-leafed plants are what I'd like to add to get the scale balanced right!


----------



## Wookii

shangman said:


> You're a terrible influence!!! 😆 Imagine what an amazing school that would be...



To whet your appetite . . .





shangman said:


> Did you manage to get any darters? They told me they all sold out on the day 😓 The Quest continues!



No, they never even replied to my e-mail. Better luck next time I guess.


----------



## Wookii

shangman said:


> Yesterday I had a fabulous fish friends day (with fabulous food too!) - I went to @Courtneybst 's house and saw all his beautiful tanks, and also met George Farmer who was there to film Courtney and his tanks <see the great youtube video here>. I actually live super close to Courtney (10 mins away), and we've made really good friends since I gave him my first baby apistos all the way ago in March! It was such a fun day, so nice to see people irl and hang out again, thanks for making me loads of new friends UKAPS!
> 
> In the afternoon I was finally bullied into joining aquatic social media (Courtney has been trying to convince me for ages as he's made lots of friends doing it), so say hello to @rosehipscapes on Instagram  You can finally see my face omg! I was also sorta in George's livestream yesterday which was really fun. Guess it's time to get out the camera again and take more fancy pics, will start posting tonight.
> 
> Doing all this really made me want to get this tank in order. I think I need to lower the light a bit, as all my favourite plants are quite low light, and it would really help with the algae. The big problem in this tank is the background, the back corners get quite light, but the back middle gets not much at all because the wood blocks it. I recently saw a great tank which had loads of mixed lotus in it including my gerflekt, so I'm going to add some lotus in the background (behind the hole) to grow up. Does anyone have any good suggestions for colourful or good growing not-high-light plants which can grow quite high? Are there any orange stems that won't mind too much? I would like some orange in the tank if possible. I've had enough of seeing soil, it's time to make it all really lush like it should be. I have quite a few nice plants with larger leaves, so small-leafed plants are what I'd like to add to get the scale balanced right!



Fame and fortune awaits! That @George Farmer gets everywhere! 

As for the plant suggestions - not strictly 'orange' but this is one of the most beautiful crypts I've grown - Cryptocoryne Spiralis 'Tiger' - and being a crypt, seems to do well in relatively low light - not my image, it's from @Roland, (as was my plant):


----------



## shangman

Wookii said:


> Fame and fortune awaits! That @George Farmer gets everywhere!
> 
> As for the plant suggestions - not strictly 'orange' but this is one of the most beautiful crypts I've grown - Cryptocoryne Spiralis 'Tiger' - and being a crypt, seems to do well in relatively low light - not my image, it's from @Roland, (as was my plant):


There's definitely orange in that, and a nice bit of pink too. Seems like I'm destined to become a crypt-keeper!


----------



## Wolf6

What name does that crypt go by?


----------



## Wookii

Wolf6 said:


> What name does that crypt go by?



The one I posted? Crypt. Spiralis ‘Tiger’.

The plantlet I had off @Roland took a few weeks to start growing, but it’s taking off now:


----------



## Conort2

shangman said:


> I called up my LFS and asked them about wild cardinals, and he said as we're in London which has such hard water, he orders his cardinals from Asia where they are bred in hard water so they're more likely to do well in London tanks, which is very interesting and makes total sense.


I’m pretty sure the Asian ones are bred in softwater too. Cardinal eggs won’t develop in hard water as far as I’m aware.

most shops order from ruinemans which I’m sure do both Brazilian and Colombian wild cardinals.

As for tall colourful plants the crypt is a great suggestion, some of the echinodorus are nice if you don’t mind a bigger plant. Ludwigia sp super red is also worth a try with decent light.

cheers


----------



## shangman

Conort2 said:


> I’m pretty sure the Asian ones are bred in softwater too. Cardinal eggs won’t develop in hard water as far as I’m aware.
> 
> most shops order from ruinemans which I’m sure do both Brazilian and Colombian wild cardinals.
> 
> As for tall colourful plants the crypt is a great suggestion, some of the echinodorus are nice if you don’t mind a bigger plant. Ludwigia sp super red is also worth a try with decent light.
> 
> cheers


I wondered whether it was like those "hardwater" discus (which I only just learnt was a thing apparently) so didn't question it, I wonder if there is a difference in the adaptability or not in hardwater. 

I have a few echinodorus which are only just now starting to give me leaves, I just want more lushness nowwwww... I feel like the tank just isn't planted densely enough and that itself is making problems for the plants I do have in the battle against algae and keeping things healthy. Need more new healthy plants note the co2 is doing better like the lotus (which is growing super great, one new big leaf every 4 days). But say some point those echinodorus and gonna really take over!!


----------



## shangman

I've been watching my aquarium more this week to really work out what it is that is making the growth not great in many areas. The more I look the more I see problems that I don't fully know how to solve, and don't have the cash to just throw things at it until something sticks.

I think really it's down to my hardscape being so massive and in the middle that the flow has lots of big dead spots. I've noticed in particular in the front bottom right, that hardly any co2 seems to get to the "carpet" area (which is basically just bare soil and lava rock because few things want to grow there, and what is growing there is very slow (at least not dying like the monte carlo tho). I also have the problem that the wood cuts out a lot of light at the back and sides, so stem plants aren't happy either and only do ok in one area.

Plus I have a lot of algae (spirogyra, clado and bba) on the moss and epiphytes on the main wood section, I think because there is too much light there compared to what it needs as it's in the top of the tank directly under the light. This area does get the most CO2, and has good growth but also lots of algae.

Another problem is lots of plants died earlier when my CO2 was very dodgy and tbh I haven't been able to afford many new plants. I could buy some now, and I feel like on the one hand any new plants I have added have done well recently (buce, lotus), but also I'm worried that they'll all just die and I'm just letting money go down the drain. But also I know that having a good plant mass is really important for getting the tank to come into balanced, feels like a catch 22.

IDK I find hightech really frustrating, I went ambitious and should've done something simpler probably but I 100% don't want to completely rescape the tank. I feel like it has so much potential but also feeling really frustrated at the problems right now.

I have a plan to add more lotus (gerfleckt and red tiger), and maybe an echinodorus to behind the wood where the big hole is, instead of attempting stems there again. I jsut relaly want proper bushiness in the back 2 corners but no idea how to achieve. Feels stressful atm, really in a rut. Maybe I need powerheads idk.


----------



## Wookii

shangman said:


> I've been watching my aquarium more this week to really work out what it is that is making the growth not great in many areas. The more I look the more I see problems that I don't fully know how to solve, and don't have the cash to just throw things at it until something sticks.
> 
> I think really it's down to my hardscape being so massive and in the middle that the flow has lots of big dead spots. I've noticed in particular in the front bottom right, that hardly any co2 seems to get to the "carpet" area (which is basically just bare soil and lava rock because few things want to grow there, and what is growing there is very slow (at least not dying like the monte carlo tho). I also have the problem that the wood cuts out a lot of light at the back and sides, so stem plants aren't happy either and only do ok in one area.
> 
> Plus I have a lot of algae (spirogyra, clado and bba) on the moss and epiphytes on the main wood section, I think because there is too much light there compared to what it needs as it's in the top of the tank directly under the light. This area does get the most CO2, and has good growth but also lots of algae.
> 
> Another problem is lots of plants died earlier when my CO2 was very dodgy and tbh I haven't been able to afford many new plants. I could buy some now, and I feel like on the one hand any new plants I have added have done well recently (buce, lotus), but also I'm worried that they'll all just die and I'm just letting money go down the drain. But also I know that having a good plant mass is really important for getting the tank to come into balanced, feels like a catch 22.
> 
> IDK I find hightech really frustrating, I went ambitious and should've done something simpler probably but I 100% don't want to completely rescape the tank. I feel like it has so much potential but also feeling really frustrated at the problems right now.
> 
> I have a plan to add more lotus (gerfleckt and red tiger), and maybe an echinodorus to behind the wood where the big hole is, instead of attempting stems there again. I jsut relaly want proper bushiness in the back 2 corners but no idea how to achieve. Feels stressful atm, really in a rut. Maybe I need powerheads idk.



Try not to get too downbeat. I had exactly the same issues on my first come-back (after 20 years hiatus) high tech tank. Very similar to your layout (though on a smaller scale) [Journal] in terms of large arching hardscape, and I encountered similar challenges with flow and distribution. In the end I really struggled with stems because the lower parts were so easily overshadowed, and I couldn't get sufficient CO2 down to them, and I also got regular BBA and staghorn on the plants on top of the wood nearest the light. Stability in the long run, and a high density clean-up crew, were the main solution, but I still had to occasionally apply Excel to kill off any excessive algae growth.

You might be able to improve your flow pattern by moving one of the inlet/outlet pairs - are they both in the rear corners? Maybe the pair on the left would be better right to the front of the glass, and the right hand pair, right to the rear corner. That would help you get CO2 down to the front substrate where you're currently having issues.


----------



## John q

Like wooki says don't get down about it, this high tech malarkey is hard work, especially in comparison to low tech set ups, I'm sure you'll turn the tank around.


shangman said:


> Another problem is lots of plants died earlier when my CO2 was very dodgy and tbh I haven't been able to afford many new plants. I could buy some now, and I feel like on the one hand any new plants I have added have done well recently (buce, lotus), but also I'm worried that they'll all just die and I'm just letting money go down the drain.


Not sure if this would be of any use to you but I'll have a variety of trimmings over the weekend, nothing exotic, mainly fast growing stems (sessiliflora, polysperma, hygrophila difformis) and some vallisneria plantlets. You're more than welcome to have them if you temporarily want to increase plant mass, without any cost.


----------



## shangman

Wookii said:


> Try not to get too downbeat. I had exactly the same issues on my first come-back (after 20 years hiatus) high tech tank. Very similar to your layout (though on a smaller scale) [Journal] in terms of large arching hardscape, and I encountered similar challenges with flow and distribution. In the end I really struggled with stems because the lower parts were so easily overshadowed, and I couldn't get sufficient CO2 down to them, and I also got regular BBA and staghorn on the plants on top of the wood nearest the light. Stability in the long run, and a high density clean-up crew, were the main solution, but I still had to occasionally apply Excel to kill off any excessive algae growth.
> 
> You might be able to improve your flow pattern by moving one of the inlet/outlet pairs - are they both in the rear corners? Maybe the pair on the left would be better right to the front of the glass, and the right hand pair, right to the rear corner. That would help you get CO2 down to the front substrate where you're currently having issues.


Thank you for the encouragement, it's good to know I'm not alone struggling like this. I read so many journals and watched so many videos on scaping that I thought I'd done everything "right" when setting the tank up, not realising that my giant hardscape would totally screw it!! My desire for a dramatic look was too strong. I have exactly those problems you said with stems - they grow in one area quite well and the rest are tragic looking. I don't need loads of stems in this tank (though it would've been nice), but only a few things are happy and there's so many gaps in between. I just wanted that sweet sweet lushness!! As always fishkeeping is all about learning.

Which cleanup crew did you find useful? I have been thinking of trying to get more amanos again, I have cherries and otos in there but they don't really do much as I'm not sure they eat the algaes I have. Also have read that blue gobies are tough algae monsters but idk, will think about that one. 

Sadly I don't think I can improve the flow any more with the filters, because of the wood placement. I have improved it a lot from what it was, but this front deadspot is so annoying.

At first I had the filters both going in the same direction like, and basically the whole back was a deadspot. 
----<
----<

But now they're like and a lot more of the tank gets good flow.


> ----


----< (this front one isn't completely at the front, it's more like in the middle)

I could fix the front deadspot if I could reverse it like this (the deadspot would just go on the sand)
----<


> ----


But the wood is in the way of doing it this way, it would baffle the flow immediately out of the pipe.





This is what the flow is doing atm. I'm wondering if a power head would be a possibility in the front left near the bottom? IDK sounds ugly but maybe is required. Alternatively thinking (but hoping to avoid) of swapping over the "carpet" area with the sand area, but I really don't want to do this because it'll be loads and loads of hassle and very messy. Plus the fish seem to like the scape as it is, the sand is right by the dark archway so they feel safe, and that's where the baby kuhlis live amongst the rocks at the edge of the sand and I'd be worried about hurting them moving it. That is one of the reasons why I've put up with the dodgy plant growth, the fish are happy at least lol.



John q said:


> Like wooki says don't get down about it, this high tech malarkey is hard work, especially in comparison to low tech set ups, I'm sure you'll turn the tank around.
> 
> Not sure if this would be of any use to you but I'll have a variety of trimmings over the weekend, nothing exotic, mainly fast growing stems (sessiliflora, polysperma, hygrophila difformis) and some vallisneria plantlets. You're more than welcome to have them if you temporarily want to increase plant mass, without any cost.


Thank you for your kind offer, I would love the trimmings! One of my suspicions is that just adding more plant mass would help a lot to change the tide for good, and at the very least cover up that bloody soil. I'll PM you.

Low tech is just sooo much easier. Even when they're unbalanced with algae I found it so much easier to get it right, and even with algae the plants never dropped dead on me the way they have here. I refuse to give up, but I am super pissed off about it right now!!


----------



## Conort2

I’d also give it some time, tanks take some time to mature before they settle down. I had been having algae problems worse than Ive ever had on my new set up but a bit of tweaking of the co2, treatment of the stubborn areas which had bba and a bit of patience and I’m now winning. Hardly no algae left and plant growth is starting to kick on.

You’ll definitely get there, sometimes these things can take a while to get right.

cheers


----------



## shangman

Conort2 said:


> I’d also give it some time, tanks take some time to mature before they settle down. I had been having algae problems worse than Ive ever had on my new set up but a bit of tweaking of the co2, treatment of the stubborn areas which had bba and a bit of patience and I’m now winning. Hardly no algae left and plant growth is starting to kick on.
> 
> You’ll definitely get there, sometimes these things can take a while to get right.
> 
> cheers


This is great to know, thank you! I do know what you mean, one of my lowtechs has taken almost a year to become perfectly balanced (aka v little algae and minimal maintenance while looking good), though 80% of that was due to laziness. I just somehow thought that high-tech was faster to get looking good, maybe that's just not the case. 

Have you found that the plant growth is slow at the start? I don't mind battling algae much, I know it can be eventually got at, but the VERY slow growth of a lot of the plants is what has really annoyed me. Am I constantly trimming and replanting stems? NO. A few of the most easy plants grow well but a lot seem to be struggling. I would quite like to do a few blackouts to really kill the spiro, but I think my plants are vigorous enough to recover easily yet. 

I have this morning upped the co2 by a tiny tiny bit, it's already at the border of yellow so can't really do much more. Maybe that will help! Been watching the fish and they're all good. 

I think I've been looking at Instagram and their perfect tanks from the start too much 😂 I just wanna be fancy with a fancy tank!


----------



## John q

shangman said:


> Thank you for your kind offer, I would love the trimmings! One of my suspicions is that just adding more plant mass would help a lot to change the tide for good, and at the very least cover up that bloody soil. I'll PM you.


Pm me your address over the weekend, will post out Monday.

On a "I'm intelligent" note... have you done a ph profile yet? I ran my tank for a while thinking I'd sussed co2 out, only to realise I only had a .8 drop, that fluctuated...  sacra bleu...


----------



## shangman

John q said:


> Pm me your address over the weekend, will post out Monday.
> 
> On a "I'm intelligent" note... have you done a ph profile yet? I ran my tank for a while thinking I'd sussed co2 out, only to realise I only had a .8 drop, that fluctuated...  sacra bleu...


No... 👀 I wanted to but have been skint for a while, tho actually I have enough atm and I think that is a good thing to try to get back on track. I do really hate how using the bubble counter/drop checker feels like it's not telling me the full picture.

Any suggestions for a good one? my friend has one but said it was rubbish and couldn't be calibrated properly so want to make sure I get one that isn't rubbish (but not too expensive hopefully!)


----------



## John q

I'm sure there are lots of decent ones out there but this is the one I use.
Amazon product

It has three point calibration, not that I've ever calibrated it as it seems fairly accurate out of the box. Very easy to use and fairly robust. Been using it for about 3 months without issue.


----------



## shangman

John q said:


> I'm sure there are lots of decent ones out there but this is the one I use.
> Amazon product
> 
> It has three point calibration, not that I've ever calibrated it as it seems fairly accurate out of the box. Very easy to use and fairly robust. Been using it for about 3 months without issue.



Perfect, thank you for the suggestion and hello as always!! ❤️


----------



## Wookii

shangman said:


> Perfect, thank you for the suggestion and hello as always!! ❤️







. . . I love a good typo! 😂


----------



## shangman

Wookii said:


> View attachment 174512
> 
> . . . I love a good typo! 😂


Great, now I can't see it 2 days later and edit it! 😂

Me writing these posts, apparently:


----------



## shangman

​I feel kinda sick today and don't feel up to much (not covid tho apparently, hooray!) so I thought I'd waffle on a little here. It was super helpful ranting to you guys and getting some perspective on it thank you very much, also got perspective from my <my 45L finally coming together after a year>. It . I've decided to take the stance that an aquarium often just takes a year to get balanced and growing well, just like gardens take a minimum of 4 years to truly get somewhere (according to my dad the ex landscape architect and gardener). Framing it like this has made it all feel much less stressful - this is a year of experimenting and learning and developing the tank, rather than being livid about it not being perfect immediately. Gotta embrace the journey rather than obsess about the destination.




I've decided I will embrace the algae while it is with me as a natural stage and something that mimics nature. I saw this video on Instagram and it's beautiful even with loads of algae. The fish don't mind, so I won't freak out about it and will just slowly chip away at getting it to be manageable. I refuse to be filled with rage by algae! Sure eventually I will have to cut some affected leaves, but I will get to a point where the plants are growing healthily and will replace them well.

​

I've also been really lucky to be given some lovely plants from friends from UKAPS and the gram, hooray aquarium friends! The tank is already looking better for having these lovely healthy extra plants. I also went to World of Water Wildwoods in Enfield and bought another spotted lotus, a bronze pointy nymphaea stellata, an unusual long red echinodorus (small plant but looks v promising) and a barclaya longifolia. The guy there said he lurks on UKAPS (if you're reading this hello, you should sign up!!!), and though they don't usually do plant delivieries they will if you call up and ask about it. They also have some Blyxa aubertii which was bronze-y and looked intrigueing (I didn't get any as I don't trust it not to melt in my tank yet). The plants are all little babies atm, but they should all grow into glorious beauties soon! I'm very pleased to say that the plants themselves seem to be looking much better, with none dying or getting overwhelmed. @Courtneybst  gave me a tiny bit of monte carlo to plant last week to see if it would die or not before I bought a pot, and so far it hasn't died! Progress! In general even though the hair algae is MAJOR in the tank, the growth is on a good tragectory. I'm hoping at some point more of my buces will start to grow - they didn't enjoy my lowtech and havne't moved much since adding them but I'm still hopeful.

On Thurs I lowered the light to 40% max, I'm hoping that this will help make managing the algae much easier. On my 45L the hair algae grew constantly until I raised the light by 10cm (no dimmer) and gave it a good clean and it just... disappeared. We'll see how this goes, I want to avoid doing big blackouts as that makes the lotus stems really long. I added some dried leaves a few days ago and let them just sit on top of the moss at the top that has LOADS of algae to see if I could do a sort of mini-blackout on it lol. I'm planning on changing my light so it can hang (it's a twinstar which dosn't seem to come with an easy way to hang but I'll work it out), and raising it higher up, so then I can to replace some of the moss right at the top which is a pure algae magnet and add more emergent plants, that's been so successful in my 45 and I want MORE.

We'll get there eventually!
















Since the apistos love showing off, I tried sketching them for the first time this week. I haven't drawn anything in ages so pleased that they aren't 100% rubbish. I've started planning painting my tank cabinet, I think I'm going to try painting the fish over a gold leaf background, so gotta try painting them in a few different styles to get the technique down!


----------



## John q

Best foot forward mate, you never signed up for the short haul. 👍


----------



## shangman

John q said:


> Best foot forward mate, you never signed up for the short haul. 👍


Exactly! You're all stuck with me for a while yet 😂


----------



## castle

shangman said:


> View attachment 174755​



Very handsome fish


----------



## shangman

castle said:


> Very handsome fish


Thanks! Mr Daffodil is my little prince


----------



## shangman

Just a little update, but a good step - all the new plants I've added (and the old plants too) are
1) not dying
2) putting out new shoots

So definitely getting better! Hooray!!

I lowered the light on Monday to 40% and the growth has been the same/better so that's grand. I've noticed the illusive giant kuhlis are out way more now, will just keep it at this level forever (or at least 6 months). I actually quite like the lowered lighting moody look, it works with the scape vibe and looks a little more natural, the fish are using the top 50% of the tank more which is great.

I've still got MAJOR spiro - I need to do a big maintenance on the filters and getting extra mulm and stuff like that (as well as getting as much spiro out as possible), will do the really big clean with the next waterchange before trying a blackout. The only annoying thing about a blackout is it makes my lotus stems really long and then it's really hard to get them to grow compactly again, otherwise I'd do one now. Anyone got any tips on that?

Lastly I added some cooked courgette this week and was surprised that not only did the otos love it, the kuhlis and the pygmy corydoras did too! The baby kuhlis are like long wiggly racoons, they'll eat anything! I also noticed the baby kuhlis are living all the way up the wood amongst the mosses and buces, they look like tree snakes and it's awesome. The fish behaviours only get more interesting!!


----------



## shangman

Had the honour of being invited to be part of the Aquascaping Type's second video to talk about what aquascaping means to me!! So if you want to see me wax lyrical about aquariums even MORE than I do on this journal (which is already a lot in-between the frustrations) then watch the below vid! The Aquascaping Type is a really great series by people who are really getting to the heart of aquascaping and trying to grow the hobby. ☺️


----------



## shangman

Two little updates...

Just opened up the tank after a 4 day blackout. I've only got the room light to tell, but I think it's done a really good job on the hair algae, and the fish are all fine! Huzzah! Looking forward to checking with light properly tomorrow after a big waterchange and filter cleans. Possibly tragic but I really missed my fish, very happy to see them gambling about again (they were very enthusiastic about their first dinner in 4 days).

While waiting, I finally started working on my stand again. The doors were standed and painted quite a few times to get a relately smooth finish, but then I went and gold leafed it which shows up every bump anyway lol. The gold leaf actually looks great though, the tones work so well with the tank and the botanicals, and I like the imperfect texture of it. This isn't the end for the stand yet, I am currently working out what I'm painting on the front, I know it will be an aquatic scene inspired by <Japanese painted panels like this>, with dramatic wood, some buces/ephiphytes and moss with a few lovely fish, but it's quite a daunting task so need to research and practice each part cos I haven't painted in agessssss.

Here's the tank tonight with gold doors and less algae:


----------



## aec34

This is stunning. Looking forward to the doors!


----------



## John q

Wow..  looks like something you'd see on a James bond film. Love it 👍


----------



## shangman

aec34 said:


> This is stunning. Looking forward to the doors!


Thank you!  Fingers crossed it'll be even more fabulous with the painting, it's really fun working out how to paint everything in the right style 



John q said:


> Wow..  looks like something you'd see on a James bond film. Love it 👍


My perfect song inspiration!


----------



## shangman

So after the blackout it's even more obvious that my stem plants are tragique

I'm thinking maybe a giant echinodorus or two at the back? Something dramatically big to play with the scale. Ideally it would grow emersed so want like 50cm+ high. Would grandiflorus work?

Any any other recommendations for fab easy plants LOL. The front is looking much nicer, the wood is becoming a star with all sorts of interesting plants on it so as long as the background is lush I don't really care any more what it is.


----------



## killi69

Lovely tank, so natural looking. Really like all that space under the wood. It feels like most of the tank space is below the wood. The apistos are gorgeous. Its looking great


----------



## Courtneybst

shangman said:


> So after the blackout it's even more obvious that my stem plants are tragique
> 
> I'm thinking maybe a giant echinodorus or two at the back? Something dramatically big to play with the scale. Ideally it would grow emersed so want like 50cm+ high. Would grandiflorus work?
> 
> Any any other recommendations for fab easy plants LOL. The front is looking much nicer, the wood is becoming a star with all sorts of interesting plants on it so as long as the background is lush I don't really care any more what it is.


I used to have Echinodorus Parviflorus in the back of my jungle tank and that grew pretty huge. It was growing out of the water and that tank is 2ft deep! The only downside is you'll likely see mostly stems because the leaves will be up top. I think regular Bhleri is good for big leaves that span the height of the plant.


----------



## shangman

killi69 said:


> Lovely tank, so natural looking. Really like all that space under the wood. It feels like most of the tank space is below the wood. The apistos are gorgeous. Its looking great


Thank you!! The space under the wood is my fish's favourite place, they seem to love the shelter of it. It's made me want to make the tank really overgrown and wild at the top to create even more of that protected feeling that the fish thrive in.



Courtneybst said:


> I used to have Echinodorus Parviflorus in the back of my jungle tank and that grew pretty huge. It was growing out of the water and that tank is 2ft deep! The only downside is you'll likely see mostly stems because the leaves will be up top. I think regular Bhleri is good for big leaves that span the height of the plant.


Aha! Perfect. I'm happy with just stems in the back for one or two plants, I want to experiment more with emergents and get something with big scale in there. I think I'll try one or two other "big" echinodorus in pinks/purples as well to get it lush, and maybe some more crypts too. 

My dad pointed something out to me last night, that all the plants not in the soil are doing well, and all the plants in the soil are struggling or growing VERY slowly, except for a few older established echinodorus. Now I'm wondering if there is a problem with the soil, which was mixed new ADA, and old ADA I bought second hand (they'd used it and dried it) cos I was being cheap. I'm going to add some root tabs to see if that helps the growth at all, but it is an interesting, slightly worrying thought.


----------



## shangman

After a waterchange tonight.... We're getting there, slowly but surely. The pygmies all schooled and then were wiggling about on the sand eating and it was glorious 😭


----------



## Courtneybst

shangman said:


> Thank you!! The space under the wood is my fish's favourite place, they seem to love the shelter of it. It's made me want to make the tank really overgrown and wild at the top to create even more of that protected feeling that the fish thrive in.
> 
> 
> Aha! Perfect. I'm happy with just stems in the back for one or two plants, I want to experiment more with emergents and get something with big scale in there. I think I'll try one or two other "big" echinodorus in pinks/purples as well to get it lush, and maybe some more crypts too.
> 
> My dad pointed something out to me last night, that all the plants not in the soil are doing well, and all the plants in the soil are struggling or growing VERY slowly, except for a few older established echinodorus. Now I'm wondering if there is a problem with the soil, which was mixed new ADA, and old ADA I bought second hand (they'd used it and dried it) cos I was being cheap. I'm going to add some root tabs to see if that helps the growth at all, but it is an interesting, slightly worrying thought.


I wonder if it's compacting at all. I noticed when I dried old aquasoil and rehydrated it, it was like cement after a short period. The roots really struggled to penetrate it.


----------



## shangman

Courtneybst said:


> I wonder if it's compacting at all. I noticed when I dried old aquasoil and rehydrated it, it was like cement after a short period. The roots really struggled to penetrate it.


I think this is def possible, I'm gonna do an experiment in the front and replace the soil and try to grow a new carpet, and see how it goes. I have a small bag of mini tropica soil left to try. I think will leave it in a bucket for a few weeks first (with water) to get out extra ammonia first tho, and do a waterchange every few days on it. I've also put some root tabs in the back amongst all the echinodorus and crypts too, so hopefully they'll take off!


----------



## shangman

Been having a play around with the camera again, now the tank is starting to look cute. My boyfriend has a few different lenses so there's lots of experimenting to do! I think this side of the hobby is the next thing to work on, it's so hard to capture how nice the tank is with my phone. Note to self: clean glass first next time! 

I'm not great at focusing with this giant camera, but I don't fully mind... it still captures the mood which is what I think is most important. Really wish I had a macro lense!


----------



## Deano3

Great pics,  i tryed photography but a lot of work and research amd money so i am sticking with phone for now 😅 but them pics look amazing 👏


----------



## shangman

Deano3 said:


> Great pics,  i tryed photography but a lot of work and research amd money so i am sticking with phone for now 😅 but them pics look amazing 👏


Thanks! My phone takes quite rubbish photos, I'm too cheap for an IPhone! Maybe one day, it would be great to do nice videos 😅 

I am very lucky, my boyfriend used to be a unit stills photographer (takes photos on film/tv sets producing assets for billboards and other promo), so he has a few cameras and lenses to try out. Annoyingly because of his specialism none of them zoom and almost all are for taking big shots from far away (or at least not tiny things up close), so it's almost impossible to get a FTS because my tanks are in small rooms! Apparently the wide angle lense could work, so will try that out tonight.


----------



## shangman

Just tried out the wideangle lense, it seems really good. Finally I can take the FTS I know you've all been after!! I'm a real aquascaper now 






The branch in the front is a giant dried flower stalk I cut off a neighbour's palm. I know it doesn't fit BUT I DON'T CARE I LOVE IT. I am now obsessed with sourcing my own interesting botanicals, but that's for a future post...


----------



## Wookii

Absolutely lovely shot! 😍

I was about to ask what that Fern type leaf was at the front left? So what exactly is it?


----------



## shangman

Thanks! 

It's from the fern _Lophosoria quadripinnata_, from our garden. 

My dad collects ferns so we have all sorts, though not many seem tough enough to go in a tank. One of the things I'm really interested in now is collecting interesting leaves and pods which are a) free and b) unusual. They really add a new layer of complexity and natural feeling to the tank, especially as all my creatures love to interact with them. My dad is a walking plant encyclopedia so I'm lucky that he can easily identify plants and trees that could work for the tanks and not poison it, and where I might find them around London. Botanicals are one of those things people don't miss, since it's just picking up a few leaves/pods or trimming off a dead bit, so they're easy to gather. I got the palm flower stalk from my neighbour's garden! 

A while ago I just went into the garden and nabbed all sorts of interesting dead leaves and this was one... it doesn't seem to affect the fish or water quality in any way and takes a long time to decompose. It's an evergreen fern so I think that makes it more tough, I'm eyeing up the green/yellow leaves now but they haven't browned yet... might have to wait until winter/spring. In the background of the tank are 2 _Chaemerops humilis cerifera_ small-medium-sized palm leaves, I have a few extras of those if you want some, I trimmed off quite a few as nobody has trimmed it and the dead leaves seem to last years and years outside on the plant, they're very tough.


----------



## Wookii

shangman said:


> It's from the fern _Lophosoria quadripinnata_, from our garden.



Thanks - just looked that up to see if I could get one for future purposes - £110 potted! Doh! 



shangman said:


> My dad is a walking plant encyclopedia so I'm lucky that he can easily identify plants and trees that could work for the tanks and not poison it



That’s really handy - that’s the tricky part, knowing what is safe to use. I’m fairly new to adding leaves and botanicals, so I’m currently only sticking to known varieties (Alder cones, Oak, Beech etc) but that Fern looks great, so it would be nice to be able to ‘branch’ out! (Pun intended 😂)



shangman said:


> In the background of the tank are 2 _Chaemerops humilis cerifera_ small-medium-sized palm leaves, I have a few extras of those if you want some, I trimmed off quite a few as nobody has trimmed it and the dead leaves seem to last years and years outside on the plant, they're very tough.



Cool - are those the same as you used in the holding tank for your apisto fry a while back (loved the look of that tank) - I do like the way the palm fronds look in a habitat style tank. Yes if you have some spare, put me down for some please, that would be great! Or if you have some spores from some suitable ferns your can send me, so I can try and grow some, that’d be an awesome mini-project?


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


shangman said:


> It's from the fern _Lophosoria quadripinnata_, from our garden


I was wondering about that as well, a new fern for me. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## shangman

Wookii said:


> Thanks - just looked that up to see if I could get one for future purposes - £110 potted! Doh!
> 
> That’s really handy - that’s the tricky part, knowing what is safe to use. I’m fairly new to adding leaves and botanicals, so I’m currently only sticking to known varieties (Alder cones, Oak, Beech etc) but that Fern looks great, so it would be nice to be able to ‘branch’ out! (Pun intended 😂)
> 
> 
> 
> Cool - are those the same as you used in the holding tank for your apisto fry a while back (loved the look of that tank) - I do like the way the palm fronds look in a habitat style tank. Yes if you have some spare, put me down for some please, that would be great! Or if you have some spores from some suitable ferns your can send me, so I can try and grow some, that’d be an awesome mini-project?


£110!  He paid £30! I have no idea if our ferns or palms can be grown from spores but I'll ask for you 

Definitely the safety is a big one, although I always check to make sure. Rhodedendron leaves look perfect, but apparently they're full of toxin even when dropped and brown. I've been thinking of documenting all the botanicals I try that are a bit more unusual so people know they can look out for more than just oak and beech, this fern is rare but not everything is! Some of the next things on my list are some different type of evergreen oak that drop small, tropical-looking leaves (thicker because they're evergreen, a bit like a tiny magnolia grandiflora). Would focus first on leaf and pod droppings from trees that you can find in nice parks all over the UK!

In my apisto baby grow-out tank I used only oak leaves and big catappa, if I did a blackwater now I would 100% use the palms though, they look super cool. Personally I don't really like catappa, they fall apart very quickly and make a big mess. Much prefer the magnolia grandiflora which has more structured and beautifully rich coloured leaves. Will put you down for some palm leaves, and ask  about the spores too.


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## shangman

I'm addicted to this camera now omg


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## mort

You've got me thinking today about ferns and mostly about royal ferns which I have in my pond. They die off gracefully over the autumn, like ornamental grasses (also wondered if some of these could be used although miscanthus etc might not add much texture or shape), and are still stood rigid by the spring when I have to cut them back. I'm guessing this rigidity through some of the worst weather might give them a similar appeal to your lovely fern.


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## Wookii

shangman said:


> In my apisto baby grow-out tank I used only oak leaves and big catappa



I must have dreamt that one then. I must have been thinking of this one, which always seems to come up when I search for biotope tanks:


----------



## Wookii

shangman said:


> I've been thinking of documenting all the botanicals I try that are a bit more unusual so people know they can look out for more than just oak and beech, this fern is rare but not everything is!



That would be really helpful, especially if your Dad can give you a list of attractive deciduous ferns - perhaps that we can grow ourselves - that would be aquarium safe and fairly long lived under water.


----------



## shangman

mort said:


> You've got me thinking today about ferns and mostly about royal ferns which I have in my pond. They die off gracefully over the autumn, like ornamental grasses (also wondered if some of these could be used although miscanthus etc might not add much texture or shape), and are still stood rigid by the spring when I have to cut them back. I'm guessing this rigidity through some of the worst weather might give them a similar appeal to your lovely fern.


If I had a royal fern, I'd definitely try it!! I also agree, grasses and their flower heads are a totally interesting and probably very beautiful and natural looking botanical. I mean ponds are often full of grasses and rushes! The rigidity is definitely a good trait for a botanical to have, some do seem to melt away a bit too fast, I want ornamental things that last a good 2 months. 



Wookii said:


> I must have dreamt that one then. I must have been thinking of this one, which always seems to come up when I search for biotope tanks:


Very nice! The one I have is a fan palm, I will have to source something with this lovely longer classic shape. 😂 I think the size of the palm leaves really gives some beautiful extra structure that's completely different than classic wood, rock and plants. A tank with just sand and botanicals could be amazing with a good few palm leaves providing a graphic structure that plays with light! 

Can you tell I want another tank? 😂 A blackwater!! 👀



Wookii said:


> That would be really helpful, especially if your Dad can give you a list of attractive deciduous ferns - perhaps that we can grow ourselves - that would be aquarium safe and fairly long lived under water.


I will try all the ferns I have in my garden, and get an extra list of likely candidates that could be easily acquired. I have already collected a few interesting potential leaves from a big fancy country park last week to try! Waiting to completely dry some of them out. I feel like I 100% need this new tank for experiments! 😂


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## Wolf6

I resurrected the thread about which plant leaves are safe to use just for this reason, I'd love to add more leaves like ferns to the tank if I knew they were safe and would last a good while. A sticky thread with a large table with botanicals/ plant species family leaf shape and duration, tannins released etc would be great.


----------



## shangman

Wolf6 said:


> I resurrected the thread about which plant leaves are safe to use just for this reason, I'd love to add more leaves like ferns to the tank if I knew they were safe and would last a good while. A sticky thread with a large table with botanicals/ plant species family leaf shape and duration, tannins released etc would be great.


I think I could start a thread where the first few posts are all info which I edit with what we learn (hopefully including what others learn if people want to try what they have around them too). Would include 
1. post table of species and what works in short form - start with what we know and then I'll add things as we try them, and an explanation of why I think it's worth it, preparation and simple things to consider/do. 
2. Post of what we think won't work and why (eucalyptus, pine, rhodedendron) , with a list of things we'll try that we're not sure of yet, 
3. More detailed post with photographs of each botanical type used in a tank, links to where to buy the plant to grow yourself or where you can find it (parks and stuff). Plus how creatures interact with them, as I've found different botanicals inspire different behaviour and I think that would inspire more people to try them when they know that! 
4.Also maybe a post of what plants fish like best dried as food? For example I collect green walnut leaves in saying and dry them - this is the favourite food of my otos, they went off courgette once I started adding those. Something that can be tried in spring/summer.

Then we can just chat about things and suggest different botanicals and our findings in the thread after those posts? 

It's hard to say which release a lot of tannins I find, as it really varies depending on the tank, the amount added, the pH, etc. I think botanicals last less long in tanks with otos and other vegetarian creatures too, as they're always having a go at them.

It's quite a seasonal project which is interesting, will collect as much as possible this autumn. I suspect that some things could be collected at other times of the year which is also interesting (will be part of the first table I think). 

Going away this week for a little holiday, but will start it when I get back.


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## Courtneybst

Wolf6 said:


> I resurrected the thread about which plant leaves are safe to use just for this reason, I'd love to add more leaves like ferns to the tank if I knew they were safe and would last a good while. A sticky thread with a large table with botanicals/ plant species family leaf shape and duration, tannins released etc would be great.


This guide was sent to me by a friend, it's a very good starting point. I agree, a collaborative sticky thread would be great!









						Using leaves in your tank
					

Collect fallen leaves from a nearby forest and use these to decorate your tank.




					www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk


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## Fiske

shangman said:


> I'm addicted to this camera now omg
> 
> View attachment 176061
> 
> View attachment 176049​


Just lovely.


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## ScareCrow

I read this article when looking for which species would be suitable. 
If you are able to ID the plant it's also worth referencing the RHS website, as they often have toxicity information.


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## shangman

BIOTOPE AQUARIUM DESIGN CONTEST 2020 – Biotope Aquarium
					






					biotope-aquarium.info
				




Above is a link to some STUNNING biotope aquariums, and there are all sorts of dried ferns, grasses, and weird rooty bits that people must've collected themselves and look brilliant!



Courtneybst said:


> This guide was sent to me by a friend, it's a very good starting point. I agree, a collaborative sticky thread would be great!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Using leaves in your tank
> 
> 
> Collect fallen leaves from a nearby forest and use these to decorate your tank.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk


This is a great starting point, I really like that it includes lots of trees that are easy to find everywhere. The pH chart is super super useful, I wonder if I could just set up a test with that in 2 jugs of water so it's easy to do and remain consistant.  Personally I think collecting leaves year-round is totally fine, especially as many of the plants that are worth collecting are evergreens that drop leaves regularly year-round, or have such strong structure (like the palms) that they last for many seasons outside well. Some of the trees they suggest also have great seedpods that could be used too!



ScareCrow said:


> I read this article when looking for which species would be suitable.
> If you are able to ID the plant it's also worth referencing the RHS website, as they often have toxicity information.


This is my favourite article on the subject, and what got me to realise that I could just try things around me. Very comprehensive and excellent advice all-round. I really like the emphasis on the different types of oak, as there are quite a few, they're quite common and often they have more unusual tropical-looking leaves rather than the more obvious temperate leaves of the classic oak.


----------



## ScareCrow

shangman said:


> Personally I think collecting leaves year-round is totally fine


You have to be a little careful, if I remember correctly from my ecology lectures. English Oak _Quercus robur _produce a chemical in new  spring growth. The chemical produced is a sort of pesticide to help protect the new growth. I don't know if it would be harmful to fish or if I'm making it up (I'll try to find the article) but I'd try to collect deciduous leaves in the autumn, this is generally the advice that's given anyway.


----------



## shangman

ScareCrow said:


> You have to be a little careful, if I remember correctly from my ecology lectures. English Oak _Quercus robur _produce a chemical in new  spring growth. The chemical produced is a sort of pesticide to help protect the new growth. I don't know if it would be harmful to fish or if I'm making it up (I'll try to find the article) but I'd try to collect deciduous leaves in the autumn, this is generally the advice that's given anyway.


Don't worry, I'm more thinking about evergreen trees (some oaks are evergreen) that drop their dead brown leaves year-round, another example is the magnolia grandiflora. These types of trees drop their old leaves as they produce new leaves year-round, rather than dropping them all in Autumn. I also think picking up leaves that dropped/dead in Autumn later in winter/spring is ok if the leaves are hardy enough to last for a long time, like my palm leaves which have been dead on the plant for years but still look pristine. I collected the fern leaves in the tank this year in the summer, they died last Autumn and are still great.

Many trees produce various pesticides and poisons to deter creatures from eating them - I've been reading up on it as I was collecting leaves last week - interestingly dead brown oak leaves are considered poisonous ... because of their tannin, which of course the fish love, so it is a difficult thing to guess sometimes (tannin is apparently poisonous to horses - walnut leaves & nuts are also considered toxic due their tannins). Some plants do have poisons which means I would not try them at all. Dead rhodedendron leaves look fantastic - great sizes and tropical look - but they produce a toxic poison in their leaves and flowers, and it's not clear whether they reabsorb all that poison before dropping their leaves, best not to just in case. You can produce toxic honey by keeping bees amongst rhodedendrons!

Remember I do have my dad the plant expert to help! I'm not going in blind ☺️ and of course do things with caution, I don't want to harm my creatures at all.


----------



## ScareCrow

shangman said:


> Personally I think collecting leaves year-round is totally fine,





shangman said:


> Don't worry, I'm more thinking about evergreen trees (some oaks are evergreen) that drop their dead brown leaves year-round


Just wanted to clarify, as if someone else was to come across this, it could be interpreted that it's fine to pick leaves at any point in the season.

This isn't the article I remember from uni but is more relevant to this discussion.



shangman said:


> Remember I do have my dad the plant expert to help! I'm not going in blind ☺️ and of course do things with caution, I don't want to harm my creatures at all.


Fair enough, I didn't mean to suggest you were experimenting without care for your creatures if that's how it was interpreted.


----------



## shangman

ScareCrow said:


> Just wanted to clarify, as if someone else was to come across this, it could be interpreted that it's fine to pick leaves at any point in the season.
> 
> This isn't the article I remember from uni but is more relevant to this discussion.
> 
> 
> Fair enough, I didn't mean to suggest you were experimenting without care for your creatures if that's how it was interpreted.


Yeah I see what you mean, I think it's def good to have some big disclaimers at the top like don't just pull leaves off of trees at any time of the year, and then note the exceptions to that rule lower down in the more detailed part of the posts. It's a difficult topic because of course nature is varied and there isn't really one set of rules that works for everything, it'll definitely be important to work things correctly so people don't get the wrong end of the stick. 

No worries  that wasn't directed at what you said, just a general statement about intentions in the project, and how knowledge of poisons in these plants we like is really important to learn and understand for it.


----------



## ScareCrow

shangman said:


> Yeah I see what you mean, I think it's def good to have some big disclaimers at the top like don't just pull leaves off of trees at any time of the year, and then note the exceptions to that rule lower down in the more detailed part of the posts. It's a difficult topic because of course nature is varied and there isn't really one set of rules that works for everything, it'll definitely be important to work things correctly so people don't get the wrong end of the stick.
> 
> No worries  that wasn't directed at what you said, just a general statement about intentions in the project, and how knowledge of poisons in these plants we like is really important to learn and understand for it.


Sounds like you've got it sorted. Hopefully it'll become a sticky and I can get hours of my life back from scouring the web for info


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## mort

I think if a guide is being thought about then the way the botanicals are prepared is another aspect to consider. I tend to use mostly oak/hornbeam/beech leaves and I leave them soaking in a tub overnight (or just floating on the surface of my tank) and then just throw them in but I see lots of people boil everything and either decant the tannin rich water to create the colour depth they are after, or then drain the leaves before adding to the tank. 
I'd imagine that boiling the leaves, or leaving them to soak in water (perhaps with waterchanges) would help make the leaves safer to use even if they did leach nasties into the water. I think that how many we use compared to tank volume and maintenance schedule is also important which can make adding a few leaves quite tricky depending on the leaves we choose. 

I'd be interested to hear how you prep the botanicals because I normally choose the method that least effort.


----------



## shangman

mort said:


> I think if a guide is being thought about then the way the botanicals are prepared is another aspect to consider. I tend to use mostly oak/hornbeam/beech leaves and I leave them soaking in a tub overnight (or just floating on the surface of my tank) and then just throw them in but I see lots of people boil everything and either decant the tannin rich water to create the colour depth they are after, or then drain the leaves before adding to the tank.
> I'd imagine that boiling the leaves, or leaving them to soak in water (perhaps with waterchanges) would help make the leaves safer to use even if they did leach nasties into the water. I think that how many we use compared to tank volume and maintenance schedule is also important which can make adding a few leaves quite tricky depending on the leaves we choose.
> 
> I'd be interested to hear how you prep the botanicals because I normally choose the method that least effort.


I also chose the method with the least effort... I put them in the top dry and let them sink over a day or two, no boiling or anything.  In the Colin Dunlop article he also just puts them in dry (after wiping off any dirt). Often I don't move them once they sink and let them stay higher up amongst the plants and hardscape, it looks really natural, and makes the layer at the bottom look even better somehow.

Preparation is a really interesting point which I haven't given much thought to, if I want tannin water I just put the leaves in and let them do their thing. I think this is where having different people testing different methods that they prefer would be really useful - though I'd happily try different methods - I think if I try all these things alone every type of leaf will take a very very long time, given that each botanical will need t's own time to test. I am interested in the tannin teas that people make as a shortcut though, I was thinkng of collecting some alder cones this season for it. I don't like their look much (tried them last winter), but they seem to stain the water well.


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## Wookii

Might be worth starting up your new thread Rosie, so that feedback like this can be added. If you reserve the first couple of posts, you can collate any tidbits you think are of value, in those first couple of posts.

For me though, I rinse my 'collected' botanicals under the hot tap for a couple of minutes to wash of any 'pollutants' and then chuck the in the tank.


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## dw1305

Hi all,


shangman said:


> if I want tannin water I just put the leaves in and let them do their thing


Same for me. 

I store spare structural ones dry,  mainly Loquat (<"_Eriobotrya japonica_">), Holm Oak (<"_Quercus ilex_">) and <"_Magnolia grandiflora_">. I used to have a big stock of them, but now I tend to just wander out and find a few when I need them. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 
I've just looked and I still have quite a few stored ones left. 

This is the nearest _Magnolia grandiflora_ tree to the lab. The nearest Loquat is on the wall immediately on the right and on the other side of the wall in front are two _Camellia x williamsii_ "Donation". 






cheers Darrel


----------



## mort

dw1305 said:


> I store spare structural ones dry,  mainly Loquat Eriobotrya japonica



That's lucky, I was going to ask about this species. Someone dumped some prunnings in our local wood so I thought I'd try and strike one and only got one from the ten I tried but it's now about 18" high and was thinking it had botanical potential.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


mort said:


> I'd try and strike one and only got one from the ten I tried


I think that was good success rate, it is a difficult cutting.

cheers Darrel


----------



## mort

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I think that was good success rate, it is a difficult cutting.
> 
> cheers Darrel



It was the only one I tried in damp spagnum, which seems to be my most successful method for lots of plants now. The others were soil/perlite and failed quickly but I don't know how long the material had been dumped in the woods before I found it.




Completely unrelated but has anyone bought house plants, or plants in general, because they saw aquarium botanical potential?


----------



## DeepMetropolis

What a great idea about the thread. I get most botanicals from my surroundings too, not in the UK but here in Holland we have a lot of similar species.


----------



## shangman

Just got home from the most amazing short holiday and am absolutely dead, soz for not responding to all of you guys and your amazing posts!!! I swam with sea turtles 😱  it was just magical.

I was in St Bart's for my friends wedding (they very generously helped us get there!), and was so moved by the beauty of the nature. This hobby had made me appreciate the tiny beautiful things in nature all around us even more - all the kinds of macroalgae floating about, mangrove propules, small branches colonised by coral, even just the few tropical leaves from the trees around the beaches floating in the sea struck me as so beautiful, when before it would just be random crap in the sea lol. If I had a macro algae tank I could drop tropical leaves in there too! 😂 Maybe that's for another post of this botanicals thread. If I could've I would've brought back a whole suitcase of fabulous tropical dead leaves!!! Sadly apparently it's not allowed but I've got some new plants to try to source in the UK now. At one point I found a fan palm with a leaf-span of 2 METERS and started to imagine a crazy giant blackwater with one of those in, would be so good!!

As I am brain dead all I'm doing rn is watching the big tank and it's so lovely and relaxing and beautiful.... A bit overgrown but the fish are very active all over. I know there are often reports that pygmy cories become shy and lethargic but with my group of 25 (ish) they are super active, and right now swimming all over the tank in a school and feeding in the sand, they've been at it all day. I thought this group behaviour might stop after a while but I've had them for a few months and it hasn't stopped - they really make the tank tbh, them and the apistos are stars.

Of course the co2 I installed the day before my trip is empty 🙃 but the fish are all fine HALLELUJAH. First time away since getting tanks!! Was so busy I think the main connection must've not been tight enough. The plants look good too and are really overgrown on top, and no new algae yet so must have run out recently. Will probs do a blackout just in case.

Last week before my trip I bought some new young wild cardinals and they've really relaxed while I was away and are now all over chasing eachother, it was definitely a good choice to add some more - even though they're tiny they have a surprisingly big personality! The big cardinals are out A LOT more too, hopefully they feel a bit more young again lol. I like this model of waiting a good while between adding any new fish and first adding more of what I already have - good sized schools of fish makes such a remarkable difference to behaviour these tetras are completely different! I got them from the Fish Barn, which is a FANTASTIC shop!! I've never seen such clean tanks and healthy fish, and lots of special unusual species. Also ordered some very unusual echinodorus from them to arrive this week 😀 I'm going full echinodorus in the back. 

The tank is almost fully stocked but I've requested from them some threadfins in a good mix of sexes, which is apparently hard to source, so we'll see if/when that happens.


Also another big improvement - I have been getting slow pale plant growth for a while. Then I lost my micro salts, which turned out to be very lucky! @Courtneybst came to the rescue and gave me some of his, as well as an extra teaspoon of DTPA iron as he said it helped his plant growth in hard water. It's worked fantastically for me!!! The buces are suddenly all growing, melt is gone and rubbish pale leaves seem gone too. In about 3 weeks things are looking just much perkier. We are definitely on the road to proper lusciousness soon.

Ok brain dump over, will get back to ask this fabulous botanical discussion tomorrow and start the new thread on it!!


----------



## DTM61

shangman said:


> One of the monstera in our hallway is suspended at the top of the stairs, it has a 5 meter single root growing down, which it has now planted into the bottom-most pot we have a flor and a half down 😂 Those roots are ridiculous and great, they must grow very high up massive trees where they're from, they remind me a bit of very long finger nails.


Did we ever get a picture of that? 😍


----------



## shangman

Oh my gosh you guys I am so upset!! For a few days my beautiful beautiful Mr Daffodil apistogramma has been hiding in the back. At first I thought maybe I had put in too much co2 and adjusted it down slightly, but today he came out of hiding with his mouth wide open. Apparently this is lockjaw and happens randomly and he's pretty much doomed!! 😭😭😭😭😭

I will hope that he recovers on his own but with apistos random stuff seems to just kill them, I haven't changed anything, my dad looked after them well. It seems like online people don't even know really why it happens 😢

Was right about to start looking over everything for the botanicals thread and an now having a drink to down my sorrows instead. My favourite fish... 😭


----------



## shangman

I bet that greedy fish ate a whole adult cherry shrimp and is now paying the price ffs!! This is just how his dad died, he died eating too many blood worms

I have noticed there past few days the cherry shrimp have been way more out and about and I feel that doesn't bode well.


----------



## shangman

Over the past few days since realising my beloved fish is dying I've been doing research, and I think that the tank may be infested with flukes. He doesn't have lockjaw, his mouth is just open to breathe heavily, and also he won't eat, and I think it may be because flukes have infested him and injured him enough that he can't breath well any more. He has no obvious injuries or body problems, no dodgy stool, no redness but his gills aren't on show so I can't see into them to check. A few other reasons I think I have flukes is that on occasion I have seen both apistos flash (maybe once or twice, never much) and twice have seen a pygmy corydora flash over the past few months. As well as this, I read that if cichlid fry are all dying off very soon after they're born, that may be flukes too... I have noticed this with all the past 3/4 broods... I had just not thinkingly assumed the tetras ate them, but I have also watched the motherfish leave the fry to get food, tetra wander over to fry... and ignore them completely. Finally, I made a post a while ago about my betta in another tank having a facial injury, a scale had been rubbed off his face and it got infected. He is ok now, but I read today that if fish have flukes that can injure themselves rubbing on things, so I think that I might not just have flukes, but have them in all my tanks (I don't have enough space to have deidcated equipment for each tank).

Mr Apisto is currently in a bag of tank water floating in the tank, he isn't dead yet and still has some life in him, I can't quite bring myself to clove him yet but he cna't stay in the tank in case he suddenly drops dead and releases all sorts of stuff into it. I've decided to dose the whole tank with fluke solve and go through that process to hopefully save the rest of the fish in the tank from a similar fate. It's simply impossible to get them all out to treat elsewhere. I will also replace his bag of water with the fluke solve and see over the next 2 days if he declines further or not. I assume he will and I will have to enthanise him, but I want to try to last effort just in case, and I have to treat the whole tank anyway. Am also dosing the betta tank.

In the instructions it says to ideally not do any waterchanges for 3 weeks, but since this is an hightech I think I have to still, has anyone else dosed flukesolve in a hightech? I am thinking I will have to readd a half-dose after a waterchange next week, maybe I will try to do a week and a half to stretch it a bit. At least then I can do a big vac of the soil to get out some of the fluke eggs that are still alive.

Any thoughts? Fish illness TBH is completely foreign to me, though luckily I have the fluke-solve from when my shrimp had nose worms and I successfully treated them. This is all just guesswork


----------



## Hufsa

You can pretty much change the amount of water you want regardless of any medication instructions, as long as you redose the new water added with the correct amount of medication. Some medications adjust the second dose based on how much they estimate the first dose of medication will have degraded in the water column, like those that are light sensitive, or that decompose naturally. But this should be of minor importance. Especially with these relatively gentle meds.

Im really sorry to hear about this, this is the worst part of the hobby in my opinion.


----------



## mort

Sorry to hear your problems. I don't have anytime at the moment as I'm already late going out but I'd have a look to see if fluke solve can be used as a dip/bath. I've not used it but there is a similar product in the marine world for flukes that you can do a dip with and if you do it in a black tub you can just about make out if anything comes of, so it's a good way to help diagnose. If it is possible with your meds then at least that might confirm what you are dealing with.

The first sign of flukes that I normally see in fish is them shaking their head. That seems to be one thing that is characteristic of flukes but doesn't happen with other diseases.


----------



## Angus

One thing I will say is I always scold all my universal gear, like nets, jugs etc, whenever I have an outbreak of anything. (would prefer a steam cleaner but i don't own one)

So by the sounds you want to treat with the fish whilst it is inside the planted tank using Flukesolve.

You can use flukesolve as a bath 



From what I read the point of Flukesolve is you use it in reefs when you can't catch the fish, or you have inverts you don't want to harm, but i don't understand how they achieve this at a 50% solution or whether it is truly coral safe.

Biltricide (fish trade name praziquantel) is used to treat infections caused by Schistosoma worms, which enter the body through skin that has come into contact with contaminated water.
Albenzadole (fish trade name Flubendazole) is used to treat infections caused by worms such as pork tapeworm and dog tapeworm.

as far as water changes go if you can't catch the fish, you could change water then re-dose the flukesolve appropriately i presume.

Sorry if im not much help, tried my best with my limited knowledge of fish diseases, hope the little bugger pulls through.


----------



## shangman

Thanks for all the advice guys, I really appreciate it. Hopefully whatever he got doesn't affect the other fish in the tank, will keep a watchful eye. I did dose some flukesolve into the main tank, felt like I needed to do something although I don't really know if that was the thing that did it. They haven't been shaking their heads much, I was mostly thinking about the occasional flicking on hardscape. I did dose Mr Daffodil last night too but I think it was just too late, he died this morning. It seems like with Apistos once they've got these symptoms they're screwed no matter what.

My family all think I'm being dramatic but I am so sad about this little fish, he truly was wonderful, so smart funny pandering and beautiful. I only had his dad for 2 months before he died (not enjoying this pattern), and when the babies appeared with his partner 2 days later I vowed to help raise at least 1 to adulthood to continue his line of beautiful fish. I think the advice I got in raising them is what really made me a proper member of UKAPS. I ended up raising 38, causing me to buy the tank in this journal. 8 of them I gave to fellow UKAPS members (notably including @Courtneybst who is basically my fish best friend now, these fish made a proper impact on my life!). I kept 2, including Mr Daffodil. I gave 28 to the LFS, apparently 5 are left there now. At first he was very shy but when he went in this big tank he really came out of his shell and grew to be so magnificent, he went from a 1mm tiny fry to a 3cm juvie an 8cm beast. Even though he lived a short life I like to think that I made it a good one. This fishkeeping has high highs and low lows, very glad I have you guys to commiserate with. I think he makes a fine excuse to have a drink tonight in the honour of, I certainly will have one!

This is the last photo I took of Mr Daffodil 2 weeks ago which is blurry af, but it shows him showing off and looking fabulous as always.





And a classic "give me food plz" look



​


Hufsa said:


> Im really sorry to hear about this, this is the worst part of the hobby in my opinion.


Definitely, the downside of experiencing nature in your own home is that whole sickness and death part, heart-wrenching.


----------



## Courtneybst

Fabulous till the very end!


----------



## Conort2

To raise a fish that looks as good as that is a testament to your skill, Cracking specimen. Absolute beast and the colour is as vibrant as I’ve seen.


----------



## bazz




----------



## Angus

Yeah absolutely unreal looking male, sometimes interbreeding leads to better colours and forms but worse longevity and worse long term health, i know you did everything you could for that fish buddy.


----------



## shangman

Courtneybst said:


> Fabulous till the very end!


Well I am his adopted mother so it had to rub off somehow! 


Conort2 said:


> To raise a fish that looks as good as that is a testament to your skill, Cracking specimen. Absolute beast and the colour is as vibrant as I’ve seen.


What a compliment thank you  fingers crossed one day I can raise some more lovely apistos. How are yours doing? ❤️



Angus said:


> Yeah absolutely unreal looking male, sometimes interbreeding leads to better colours and forms but worse longevity and worse long term health, i know you did everything you could for that fish buddy.


His parents were from different sources in different countries, though I suppose you never truly know the provenance of fish unless they're all wild caught.


----------



## mort

He was stunning and a real credit to you. I think the fact you are so upset means you are the right kind of aquarist.


----------



## Angus

mort said:


> I think the fact you are so upset means you are the right kind of aquarist.


Couldn't have put it better myself, if you don't get upset when a pet dies i don't think you deserved its love and companionship in the first place.

Just because you can't cuddle aquatic pets doesn't mean you don't get attached, the only thing i never got attached to was insects really but i've never kept praying mantis or large snails ive heard those have real personality.


----------



## shangman

mort said:


> He was stunning and a real credit to you. I think the fact you are so upset means you are the right kind of aquarist.


What a lovely thing to say thank you.

I really feel like the hobby has trained me to be more aware of the intricate natural beauty that surrounds us everywhere. More open minded and empathetic too from spending so much time observing the fish (and shrimps!) trying to understand what they're doing and learning how to interpret it. It's easy to become so fond of them, they're all almost magical in how beautiful and captivating they are. Apistos being the most magical so far tbh but they all have it. I guess what I'm saying is that the hobby itself turned me into a good aquarist by just being so enjoyable and fascinating, I'm hooked, line and sinker. I cared about keeping them alive from the start but didn't fully appreciate how alive they are until I experienced it I guess. 



Angus said:


> Couldn't have put it better myself, if you don't get upset when a pet dies i don't think you deserved its love and companionship in the first place.
> 
> Just because you can't cuddle aquatic pets doesn't mean you don't get attached, the only thing i never got attached to was insects really but i've never kept praying mantis or large snails ive heard those have real personality.


You are totally right!! I think people who don't spend time in nature/with pets seem to assume that the only thing with sentience and worth their time is humans and maybe cats/dogs if your lucky, when if you look around you, everything that's alive... Has life and so is naturally beautiful with awareness of their life ... They all has immense worth. Even shrimps have this fairy-like bouncy quality that is so funny to watch, prior don't consider alive shrimps ever in normal life at all.

The nature in a tank is just so pleasing, the plants count too they're so great, just fascinating to see how they react and grow and adds so much to the experience of a fish tank. Just brimming with life I love it.

I'm in a funny reflective mood cos yesterday was a particularly s**t day. After my fish died in the morning I went to the dentist and on the way got hit by a moped learner driver in the street. I'm very lucky I just have some nasty deep bruises, so am actually ok other than a bit of hobbling but  omg that was scary!! Came home and just watched the fish and relaxed.


----------



## Karmicnull

Relieved to know you are ok. That sounds like a monster of a day. Hope the bruises heal fast.


----------



## shangman

Karmicnull said:


> Relieved to know you are ok. That sounds like a monster of a day. Hope the bruises heal fast.


❤️ Luckily not bad at all, well enough to manage to go and pick up a second hand ADA tank on Sunday 👀😀


I've just fed the tank and although Mr Daffodil is gone there is still plenty to enjoy. Particularly the cardinals, I bought 10 wild ones to add to the school... And then went back and got 10 more cos it didn't seem like quite enough yet. It's a perfect school now, they are so much more interesting, way more all over the tank and just have so much more impact. I think the tank is fully stocked now, but I think it is better to have this bigger groups of schooling fish rather than smaller groups of different types! They have a very classic look that I really like, and that blue is just stunning


----------



## MichaelJ

shangman said:


> way more all over the tank and just have so much more impact.


Hi @shangman  Yep, I am addicted to Cardinals and always feel I can add more...but won't... Mine are not even shoaling - they are all over the tanks  (I have them in both) acting on their own it seems, but they probably keep taps on each other ... They do snap into their instinctive schooling behavior really fast when feeling threatened like when I mess around with the tanks.

Cheers,
Michael


----------



## shangman

MichaelJ said:


> Hi @shangman  Yep, I am addicted to Cardinals and always feel I can add more...but won't... Mine are not even shoaling - they are all over the tanks  (I have them in both) acting on their own it seems, but they probably keep taps on each other ... They do snap into their instinctive schooling behavior really fast when feeling threatened like when I mess around with the tanks.
> 
> Cheers,
> Michael


Yes they aren't really schooling much during the day, they are quite evenly spaced around the tank and bicker at eachother constantly. Much more confident than before when they mostly lurked in the back though! When I fed them and they all come to the front it's just wonderful to watch how they move about both turner and alone searching for food high and low (they stay for an hour just in case 😅). Just that much moving blue is just fabulous.


----------



## John q

shangman said:


> ❤️ Luckily not bad at all, well enough to manage to go and pick up a second hand ADA tank on Sunday


"Tis but a scratch" said the black Knight.

I'm guessing you'd have crawled over broken glass to get that tank, lol.

Glad to hear you are on the mend.


----------



## shangman

John q said:


> "Tis but a scratch" said the black Knight.
> 
> I'm guessing you'd have crawled over broken glass to get that tank, lol.
> 
> Glad to hear you are on the mend.


Well, you know... A bargain's a bargain!!


In general the tank is looking really nice ATM, all going great except for some moss I killed with liquid carbon while trying to kill some clado algae lol, just a patch tho. Will post pics this week of the tank properly.

I have a weird problem though, ever since my male apisto died my female has taken to bullying and chasing my sparkling gouramis all over the tank for quite a distance. The gouramis are luckily faster and better at hiding, but I'm worried they will jump out or she'll murder them!! She will go from the bottom of the tank to the top to have a go if she sees them. Before the male died they would only be charged when she had babies (she has none rn), and only for very short distances but now it's all over the tank and around corners.

I think I will have to re-home them, annoyingly I don't have any other tanks that would work for them (one is a cold water and the other has a Betta apparently they would also fight). And my new tank is going to a studio to be an arty project. So... Anyone want a pair? They are very beautiful and charming but I'm worried they get got!


----------



## shangman

Tank updatessssss

A little while ago I ran out of sinking algae wafers, and so I simply had to go to the LFS to buy them. Certainly it was JUST A COINCIDENCE that I gave that particular LFS my apisto babies, and JUST A COINCIDENCE that I happened to walk past their tank and amongst the 6 left spied a cute lil male making trouble for the rest of them. Who could resist? Did I not raise these fish? Are they not - _sort of_ - my children? **** it, they are and I took that boy home. Young Master Apisto is very sweet and Ms Apisto has welcomed him happily, she's already breeding with him lol. He's much much smaller than Mr Daffodil, and not nearly as colourful but I'm interested to see if and how that changes now he lives with me again. 





Second story:
I've given up on stem plants completely **** it, and now have 8 echinodorus in my tank because I truly never know when to stop. But seriously, there are too many beautiful ones, and still so many on my list, I should've been born German 😢 I'm hoping one or two will get large enough to have leaves growing out of the top, and I'm raising my light soon just in case. The list is currently: _E. Palaefolius, E. Cordifolius red, E. Red flame, E. Yellow sun, E. Hadi red pearl, E. Rose, E. Red sword, E. Rubra. _I'm screwed when they get bigger but OH WELL LOL, I'll just give away any that don't look completely fabulous. I've added about 20 root tabs to help them along, v intrigued by root tabs and how they change the growth, because in my tank the ephiphytes are popping now, but the planted plants have struggled (and frankly I just sort of ignored the back for ages because of it). Now the plants in general are not only not dying but growing well, I realised it's time to really take care of the whole tank. And I think it'll look awesome to have this giant leaves and stems in the back in all different colours, with the more delicate plants on the wood. 

I also bought a realllllllly nice _Echinodorus cordifolius var. marble queen_, but that's going to grow emergently in the 45L downstairs so I guess it doesn't count. My dad has planted a huge number of variagated plants in our garden of all different types and it looks really cool, so it's nice that the tank we share also has something variagated too. I bought the _marble queen_ from Pro Shrimp (great plants and interesting echinodorus sold there), and got the _yellow sun_ and _red flame_ from Fish Barn (probs my favourite shop now, amazing fish AND plants). These pics I've nabbed from the internet show then at their best, though I think yellow sun is more simply golden submersed, it's hard to find mroe info online about them.



 

 


Third story:
This week I cleaned the filters and lily pipes, omg they were FILTHY. The mini waterchange I did after was pure cold rainwater, and it caused a flurry of pygmy corydora breeding all over the tank which was super awesome. They lay tiny lil pearls all over, one at a time. Of course... all the eggs got hoovered up by my greedy apistos and sparkling gouramis, but it's the thought that counts. My tank is still not very heavily planted at all in the back and corners, so hopefully in a few months when the echinodorus grow in then some eggs and babies can make it.

I've also noticed the smaller wild cardinals are "fighting" with eachother more, they look like tiny jewelled daggers have a knife fight. It's very fabulous, I really like them. When I bought the extra ones I wondered if I'd made a mistake and should've got some smaller schools of other fish instead but I think having a big group of one kind does look awesome and their behaviour is much more interesting than I previously gave tetras credit for.




Fourth story:
After seeing the beautiful aquarium of @Ullalaaqua, and her fabulous DIY backlight, I realised that I have some spare LEDs for the kitchen cabinets and rigged them up. It's a subtle difference but I really really like it, I can see the fish in the back better, and the fish don't just automatically hide in the back any more, but in shady areas all over the tank. It really makes such a lovely difference, and the wood stands out even better now. Hooray, DIY! BIG THANKS to my childhood self for painting my room blue all those years ago. Just omg, it's so much easier to take niec pics now 😭😍









Ok.. ok... enough stories, this is just to say I'm now free enough to finally talk BOTANICALLLLSSSSSSSSSSSSSS. So as soon as I post this I'm gonna go back to those posts and reply to them like they deserve and work out how to get this ball rolling. I know it's a bit late this year, but I still think there are some great plants that can be collected from year-round, and it'd be great to get a list of good potential species to try next year and work out how to organise it all well in a forum post and all that jazz.


----------



## Ullalaaqua

shangman said:


> After seeing the beautiful aquarium of @Ullalaaqua, and her fabulous DIY backlight, I realised that I have some spare LEDs for the kitchen cabinets and rigged them up.


I’m so glad you found that tip usefull! The tank looks amazing!


----------



## shangman

Ullalaaqua said:


> I’m so glad you found that tip usefull! The tank looks amazing!​


Thank you so much @Ullalaaqua! Big love to a fellow wildness-loving lady 😍


________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________​
Some shots of the tank and fishies. The twigs are a palm flower stalk, it was so large I cut some of the "branches" off so I could place them more particularly, as when it was massive it hid some of my fav areas. This is definitely my fav botanical so far, the fish love swimming amongst it, and the otos and catfish love eating and resting on it. It is becoming quite soft now and some has def been eaten away, but that's cool with me! I kinda just love twigs in scapes, think they really add an extra dimension which you can really see with the new backlight. I think what this tank is all about is chaotic harmony.


----------



## DTM61

Wow, you have a way of making chaotic look stunning, whereas I can just do apocalyptic mess. 

Very harmonious. Really lovely tank 👍. 

New name for the thread, 'chaotic harmony'. 👌


----------



## KirstyF

Lovin this tank. 😊👍


----------



## shangman

KirstyF said:


> Lovin this tank. 😊👍


Thank you! 🥰



DTM61 said:


> Wow, you have a way of making chaotic look stunning, whereas I can just do apocalyptic mess.
> 
> Very harmonious. Really lovely tank 👍.
> 
> New name for the thread, 'chaotic harmony'. 👌


Ah thank you so much that is so kind!! Is it confusing to people for me to change the name? 😂 I do think the chaotic harmony is right, or maybe that is just my style!


----------



## Wolf6

I love your use of twigs and such to add that natural vibe


----------



## Geoffrey Rea

shangman said:


> I do think the chaotic harmony is right, or maybe that is just my style!



Organised chaos…? Harmonious style…?

Great skills @shangman beautiful work whatever the label!


----------



## shangman

Wolf6 said:


> I love your use of twigs and such to add that natural vibe


Thanks so much! I love your tanks too, fellow twig-lover  Honestly it's mad how much twigs make things look more natural



Geoffrey Rea said:


> Organised chaos…? Harmonious style…?
> 
> Great skills @shangman beautiful work whatever the label!


Big thank you!! 😁 Talking about this made me realise that my aquarium "design" style is actually very similar to my fashion design ethos, even though they look very different with very different formats! Didn't start out thinking that aquariums are a disciplined art form and practice, but I definitely do now! And I love that I can define what that means to myself. I think I prefer the tanks to the fashion now though, whoops!

Still got a long way to go, a lot of growing to do, very exciting! 

____________________________________________________________​For ages I've been trying to work out how to DIY raise my twinstar light, and a few weeks ago realised that Litiaquaria (whose tanks I LOVE they're so colourful yet natural) sold a hanging kit for a variety of lights including twinstar. It's basically 2 custom-made clips that slide over the light, with tension wire and 2 big hooks at the top. Simple and great. I used basic cheap copper pipes in a U shape to make a bar across my shelf (that's above the tank) for the hooks to attatch to. Slightly annoying, the shelf I installed years ago and has gold brackets, the aquarium gear is all chrome and now this copper bar! 3 metal seems a biiiiit dodgy, might have to gold leaf the bar to match! Anyway it was very low effort considering the effect!









IT'S GREAT! It just suddenly opens up the tank to the room, it feels much more part of the room and much more beautiful. Just seeing the whole top is great, I forget about how deep it is with the bar in the middle breaking it up.

The surface is a whole new area to get looking beautiful, now the top is fully open and has height.  I have a schismatoglotis roseospatha along the top of my wood and some of it's leaves stick out the water, but all the emergent leaves end up burnt on one edge by hitting the light, so now they can grow a bit healthier and beautiful. What other emergent plants would you guys suggest? The ones I have atm are just as good in other tanks so I can try all sorts of different plants (ludwigias and rotalas grow amazingly for me as emergents/just below surface plants in my lowtech nano, no need for them in this tank!). I'm thinking hygrophila lancea/araguia emersed. Also kinda wanna try a nice grass? Maybe experimentally bloodgrass? IDK, but I think I can go for something a bit more fab. Another big OOH MAYBE is the A_eschynomene fluitans._ I want to make the top a really special part of the tank, I have this theory that it will be better for the fish too, having the light broken up further, I have noticed they will sue the top of the tank more if it has better cover. Also just think it will look awesome.

The back of my tank is now way more illuminated now due to the wider spread. Tbh the back has always had dodgy growth - because of the wood disrupting the flow and also being so close to the light that it shadowed the back of the tank. Now the light is higher it's spread is wider. Really hoping that with this and the shedload of root tabs I've added in the back (which already seem to be taking effect), the nice big echinodorus can grow lovely and big (and also hopefully stick out the top). It's quite cool how my wall blue and the tank blue are two different colours, I think from all the leaves I added staining the water to be a bit more green.

FINALLY... maintenance is way easier now too, again because the light and the wood were so close I couldn't reach the back from the front and had to move the furniture to get to the back via the sides. Now I can reach and see and do maintenance waaayyyyy easier.

It's hard to show you the right angles of it that I see with this camera as my room isn't big enough to get more in frame, tho I might try and stand on a chair tomoz to get one of the whole top in a good way.


----------



## shangman

I've started organising and writing my botanicals article/thread. I'm hoping to post it during the holidays. At the moment it includes this:

An introduction post on why botanicals are great/what the thread is about
A post on What makes a "good" botanical for collecting, how/where to collect & prepare. Kinda an FAQ sort of bit. Also lots of links to further reading (have saved all the links you guys have sent me).
A post with a massive table (not completely sure how I'm gonna do this but have asked @LondonDragon for advice) which lists all the botanicals we know work well, plus botanicals we think probably will, plus botanicals that shouldn't be used (ideally with some sort of green/yellow/red colours somewhere so it's clear). I've been collating from around UKAPS and the internet which plants people are using successfully to make the table, and will be including my own experiences & my dad's guesses lol.
A post with a table on some specific plants good for food like dried green walnut leaves, nettles, etc. Since botanicals feed a lot of my fish (my otos don't eat any algae wafers or courgette now I have lots of botanicals), I thought this might be a nice little thing to go with everything else. TBH my tank looks better for not have courgette on sticks any more, and my otos are still fat!
A post featuring users lovely aquariums full of interesting botanicals they've collected to inspire people 
???? Any other ideas?

I want the thread to be collaborative, the table won't be complete and I am hoping it will inspire people to contribute so we can grow it. So hoping it can just be a big long great discussion for years, and I'm hpoing it will help prepare us for next Autumn so we can all go out and gather all sorts of good stuff!


Also, I'm quite excited that I found this great account on Instagram, they put bracken in their aquarium. Bracken is known to be poisonous, but also that boiling it seems to denature the poison. I asked and they said they boiled it and that everything in the tank was doing great. It looks fabulous and grows everywhere, so that's awesome.










In preparation of starting this thread and realising I should take some more nice botanical pictures for it, I chucked a big handful of leaves into the tank yesterday. I used magnolia grandiflora, chestnut and randomly a few dried leaves of a thaumatophyllum houseplant we have that dropped off. Honestly I just love how the tank looks when you chuck leaves in and they slowly sink over a few days, it looks so peaceful. The fish love investigating them.







​The palm flower stalk has lasted 2 months and it's really starting to suffer, the otos have eaten off almost all the outer layer and all the sinew is exposed. I won't get rid of it yet, so far it's my favourite botanical. Luckily there are a few more on the plant in my neighbors garden that they don't mind if I have. I love the notion of temporary hardscape, and using these bigger more dramatic botanicals to create temporary structure and transform the tank. I am not planning on being one of those people who redoes a tank completely every year, sounds exhausting and expensive, and tbh I like the structure of this tank a lot. But I really like the idea of sourcing interesting botanicals to temporarily transform it every few months to give a different vibe and interest for the fish. I think already you can see that in this thread and I hope I can keep doing it for quite a while. I am so into botanicals as another essential aspect of the aquarium alongside plants and hardscape.


----------



## Wolf6

shangman said:


> I've started organising and writing my botanicals article/thread. I'm hoping to post it during the holidays. At the moment it includes this:
> 
> An introduction post on why botanicals are great/what the thread is about
> A post on What makes a "good" botanical for collecting, how/where to collect & prepare. Kinda an FAQ sort of bit. Also lots of links to further reading (have saved all the links you guys have sent me).
> A post with a massive table (not completely sure how I'm gonna do this but have asked @LondonDragon for advice) which lists all the botanicals we know work well, plus botanicals we think probably will, plus botanicals that shouldn't be used (ideally with some sort of green/yellow/red colours somewhere so it's clear). I've been collating from around UKAPS and the internet which plants people are using successfully to make the table, and will be including my own experiences & my dad's guesses lol.
> A post with a table on some specific plants good for food like dried green walnut leaves, nettles, etc. Since botanicals feed a lot of my fish (my otos don't eat any algae wafers or courgette now I have lots of botanicals), I thought this might be a nice little thing to go with everything else. TBH my tank looks better for not have courgette on sticks any more, and my otos are still fat!
> A post featuring users lovely aquariums full of interesting botanicals they've collected to inspire people
> ???? Any other ideas?
> 
> I want the thread to be collaborative, the table won't be complete and I am hoping it will inspire people to contribute so we can grow it. So hoping it can just be a big long great discussion for years, and I'm hpoing it will help prepare us for next Autumn so we can all go out and gather all sorts of good stuff!
> 
> 
> Also, I'm quite excited that I found this great account on Instagram, they put bracken in their aquarium. Bracken is known to be poisonous, but also that boiling it seems to denature the poison. I asked and they said they boiled it and that everything in the tank was doing great. It looks fabulous and grows everywhere, so that's awesome.
> 
> ​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In preparation of starting this thread and realising I should take some more nice botanical pictures for it, I chucked a big handful of leaves into the tank yesterday. I used magnolia grandiflora, chestnut and randomly a few dried leaves of a thaumatophyllum houseplant we have that dropped off. Honestly I just love how the tank looks when you chuck leaves in and they slowly sink over a few days, it looks so peaceful. The fish love investigating them.
> 
> View attachment 178693
> 
> View attachment 178684
> 
> View attachment 178685​The palm flower stalk has lasted 2 months and it's really starting to suffer, the otos have eaten off almost all the outer layer and all the sinew is exposed. I won't get rid of it yet, so far it's my favourite botanical. Luckily there are a few more on the plant. I love the notion of temporary hardscape, and using these bigger more dramatic botanicals to create temporary structure and transform the tank. I am not planning on being one of those people who redoes a tank completely every year, sounds exhausting and expensive, and tbh I like the structure of this tank a lot. But I really like the idea of sourcing interesting botanicals to temporarily transform it every few months to give a different vibe and interest for the fish. I think already you can see that in this thread and I hope I can keep doing it for quite a while. I am so into botanicals as another essential aspect of the aquarium alongside plants and hardscape.



Really looking forward to it and hope I'll be able to add to it.


----------



## shangman

Wolf6 said:


> Really looking forward to it and hope I'll be able to add to it.


That would be so great! I think it'll be beneficial and fun for us all  

I'm more and more convinced that botanicals really improve our tank's habitat for our creatures. The tank is buzzing with activity, the fish really live in all areas of the tank top to bottom front to back, it feels serene and natural in a reassuring way.


----------



## Paul27

shangman said:


> That would be so great! I think it'll be beneficial and fun for us all
> 
> I'm more and more convinced that botanicals really improve our tank's habitat for our creatures. The tank is buzzing with activity, the fish really live in all areas of the tank top to bottom front to back, it feels serene and natural in a reassuring way.


Definitely agree with this, I only started using botanicals this year and they have completely changed my outlook on how I set a tank up now. Leaf litter especially, watching the fish go in and out of it hunting is great to watch, feel like it influences there behaviour too.


----------



## shangman

Paul27 said:


> Definitely agree with this, I only started using botanicals this year and they have completely changed my outlook on how I set a tank up now. Leaf litter especially, watching the fish go in and out of it hunting is great to watch, feel like it influences there behaviour too.


Totally, the proof is really in using them and seeing for yourself what an improvement it makes for the fish! And the shrimps too.

You're right that the leaves are especially the gamechanger, the way piles of leaves encourage the fish to forage and hunt for their own food was a totally new set of behaviours for me and so satisfying to watch. It's obviously great enrichment, and so much more habitat with that extra surface area, lots of good food for them to go for. I think I'll always keep dead leaves in my freshwater tanks, I'm writing up a botanicals thread to investigate what different botanicals can be used so our botanical-heavy aquariums can still look different and interesting from eachother, and give us all the benefits in behaviour.


----------



## Paul27

shangman said:


> Totally, the proof is really in using them and seeing for yourself what an improvement it makes for the fish! And the shrimps too.
> 
> You're right that the leaves are especially the gamechanger, the way piles of leaves encourage the fish to forage and hunt for their own food was a totally new set of behaviours for me and so satisfying to watch. It's obviously great enrichment, and so much more habitat with that extra surface area, lots of good food for them to go for. I think I'll always keep dead leaves in my freshwater tanks, I'm writing up a botanicals thread to investigate what different botanicals can be used so our botanical-heavy aquariums can still look different and interesting from eachother, and give us all the benefits in behaviour.


Will be looking forward to when you get this thread started. 
Everyone who uses botanicals could add to it with there experience with what they have used in regards to how they effect PH, colour of tint it causes in the water and also if they have gone from not using botanicals to using them and what effect is has had on the inhabitants. I do think there is alot more things we could use on our aquariums but possibly not widely known and hopefully this new thread could shine alight on them.


----------



## Deano3

That sounds like will be a great read and very helpful for the likes of me who hasnt ventured into botanicals

Thanks cant wait 😊


----------



## shangman

Turn your back for one week and...





It seems that the plants like the light raised! I pulled out loads of hydrocotyle last week and now there's so much more, and the floating plants have gone bananas!! The echinodoruses are also growing much faster, and this random philodendron cutting my dad got for free from a terrarium shop is loving it (that's the pink thing in the top left).

Interestingly but also probs unsurprisingly all the fish are using the top of the tank a lot more, even the apistos are up there all the time. I really love it!! The sparkling gourami pair have bred and are chasing Master Apisto around, he's getting a taste of his own medicine!

ATM I'm still cutting this growth back so that the back plants get lots of light and grow bigger, but once they're thicker I think I'll let it cover like this and try some pencilfish. I know they're known as jumpers but I think if I can provide them with a thicket like this it might go well. Looking forward to adding some other interesting emergent plants when I gave time to go to a shop soon too (really want that water mimosa and hygrophila araguia).

If anyone wants some basic hydrocotyle, (green) red root floater or a mix of floating plants I seem to be pulling out a bagful a week!


----------



## shangman

Paul27 said:


> Will be looking forward to when you get this thread started.
> Everyone who uses botanicals could add to it with there experience with what they have used in regards to how they effect PH, colour of tint it causes in the water and also if they have gone from not using botanicals to using them and what effect is has had on the inhabitants. I do think there is alot more things we could use on our aquariums but possibly not widely known and hopefully this new thread could shine alight on them.


I am too! It's that classic thing when I suggested starting it that nothing much was happening in my life and now suddenly in super busy 😂 but it is on the way  just writing little bits here and there. I imagine just as you do, people sharing their experiences and helping others feel more confident to try, especially to try plants that can really enhance the beauty of our aquariums. 

My last big botanical had finally been nibbled to nothing so I've got space to try a new one, good timing to start 👀



Deano3 said:


> That sounds like will be a great read and very helpful for the likes of me who hasnt ventured into botanicals
> 
> Thanks cant wait 😊


Oooooh you've got so much cool stuff to try! Super exciting, your fish will love it. I'll have to hurry up 😂


----------



## Paul27

shangman said:


> I am too! It's that classic thing when I suggested starting it that nothing much was happening in my life and now suddenly in super busy 😂 but it is on the way  just writing little bits here and there. I imagine just as you do, people sharing their experiences and helping others feel more confident to try, especially to try plants that can really enhance the beauty of our aquariums.
> 
> My last big botanical had finally been nibbled to nothing so I've got space to try a new one, good timing to start 👀
> 
> 
> Oooooh you've got so much cool stuff to try! Super exciting, your fish will love it. I'll have to hurry up 😂


Always the way, have a great idea but when getting round to do it, it's finding the time, but your approaching it the best way with putting it together bit by bit, will definitely be worth it and people will benefit from it.


----------



## shangman

So I found myself reading this article on apistogramma 2 days ago - My Perspective on Apistogramma Behaviour

It's a very good thorough article which I recommend you all read if you have or want to keep apistos. He writes with a clarity I haven't come across before that laid everything that I've seen out in very understandable terms.

But now I'm rather worried that I've been totally misinterpreting some apisto behaviour, and that my male apisto is being bullied quite badly by my female who I think has laid eggs 2 days ago. He has been chased by her the past few days, and he is often in a very defensive fins-out position, I think she comes out just to stare at him threateningly, and he's been spending more time all over the tank and at the top (which I thought was fine but apparently not). He is eating fine though and still comes to look at me and explore the tank, but there's def more defensive behaviour when he sees her. I'm worried because my last male died apparently of nothing - I chaulked it up to bad luck or overfeeding, but now I'm thinking... did the female bully him to death? According to this article it's not a crazy idea, though I don't remember her ever treating Mr Daffodil the way she's treating my current male now.

I've been thinking about the past day since I read the article, and remembered that the female's mother was also very aggressive, and my first original male died 2 days before babies appeared. I blamed overfeeding bloodworms on that death, but now I'm worrying that this is starting to become a pattern. She was also very very agressive when the babies got to about 1cm which I why I got this initial tank. When my current female is not breeding she's very chill and they swim around together, but in the past 2 days since she's gone yellow she's definitely acting nastier.

I'm worried that my current will die from this, but I don't have another tank to rehome him/my female to, and none of my local friends have an appropriate tank either. I've added more leaves and made sure they're all over the tank to break lines of sight better and provide more hiding. Any ideas???? It's not a small tank but she is relentless. I think when this lot pass I might just keep a nice gentle apisto like borellii, or a single male, or another gentler dwarf cichlid group if there is one, I really don't like this stress for the fish or me!!


----------



## Conort2

shangman said:


> did the female bully him to death? According to this article it's not a crazy idea, though I don't remember her ever treating Mr Daffodil the way she's treating my current male now.


It’s quite possible, when the females have had enough they can be extremely tough on the males. I think if I left my male lineata in with my female for an hour longer she would have killed him. His dorsal still hasn’t fully recovered months later.

You’ve already added leaf litter which is what I would recommend, your tank is also heavily planted so plenty of cover and lines of site to be broken so hopefully you’ll be ok. It’s a fair sized tank, he has plenty of space to get out of the way hopefully.

Cheers


----------



## ScareCrow

shangman said:


> So I found myself reading this article on apistogramma 2 days ago - My Perspective on Apistogramma Behaviour
> 
> It's a very good thorough article which I recommend you all read if you have or want to keep apistos. He writes with a clarity I haven't come across before that laid everything that I've seen out in very understandable terms.
> 
> But now I'm rather worried that I've been totally misinterpreting some apisto behaviour, and that my male apisto is being bullied quite badly by my female who I think has laid eggs 2 days ago. He has been chased by her the past few days, and he is often in a very defensive fins-out position, I think she comes out just to stare at him threateningly, and he's been spending more time all over the tank and at the top (which I thought was fine but apparently not). He is eating fine though and still comes to look at me and explore the tank, but there's def more defensive behaviour when he sees her. I'm worried because my last male died apparently of nothing - I chaulked it up to bad luck or overfeeding, but now I'm thinking... did the female bully him to death? According to this article it's not a crazy idea, though I don't remember her ever treating Mr Daffodil the way she's treating my current male now.
> 
> I've been thinking about the past day since I read the article, and remembered that the female's mother was also very aggressive, and my first original male died 2 days before babies appeared. I blamed overfeeding bloodworms on that death, but now I'm worrying that this is starting to become a pattern. She was also very very agressive when the babies got to about 1cm which I why I got this initial tank. When my current female is not breeding she's very chill and they swim around together, but in the past 2 days since she's gone yellow she's definitely acting nastier.
> 
> I'm worried that my current will die from this, but I don't have another tank to rehome him/my female to, and none of my local friends have an appropriate tank either. I've added more leaves and made sure they're all over the tank to break lines of sight better and provide more hiding. Any ideas???? It's not a small tank but she is relentless. I think when this lot pass I might just keep a nice gentle apisto like borellii, or a single male, or another gentler dwarf cichlid group if there is one, I really don't like this stress for the fish or me!!


It is a bit of a problem with cichlids unfortunately. Damn their beauty and interesting behaviour that draws us in just to frustrate us when all hell breaks loose when they breed.
I had the opposite issue, my male krib got really aggressive with the female almost straight after spawning he wanted to keep her away from the eggs but she was intent on guarding them. As there were no other fish to keep away from the eggs I think he thought he was doing his job of protecting them by keeping the female away.
Anyway the solution was one of those mesh hang on breeding boxes that sit inside the tank. They're not very big or nice to look at but it was better than the female getting beaten up and like you I didn't have a spare tank.
If you do go that route I'd put some floating plants in the breeder box, otherwise the fish in there will be stressed by any movement over the top of them as they can't dart down.


----------



## shangman

Things have chilled out a lot in the past few days. They started to do a bit of flirting the day after I posted (he often ended up swimming away), and today she's stopped bullying him completely. I think maybe he didn't fertilise the eggs as shes stopped defending a territory and is all over the tnak again, but still very yellow. This weekend I'm changing up the front of the tank a bit so maybe that will help disrupt things a bit too as it's often where she has hers nests, it's unrelated (I don't like the way I set up the front right), but I think it could help as she'll have to rethink her territory a bit. I'm gonna keep an eye on her when she next goes into breeding mode and definitely add more leaves (they get eaten and fall apart so fast from the otos!) so there's a lot of territory to hide in all over the tank and to reduce the sight lines. I can't really bring myself to rehome either, if a friend had a tank for it I might but they don't and neither is going back to the shop. 



Conort2 said:


> It’s quite possible, when the females have had enough they can be extremely tough on the males. I think if I left my male lineata in with my female for an hour longer she would have killed him. His dorsal still hasn’t fully recovered months later.
> 
> You’ve already added leaf litter which is what I would recommend, your tank is also heavily planted so plenty of cover and lines of site to be broken so hopefully you’ll be ok. It’s a fair sized tank, he has plenty of space to get out of the way hopefully.
> 
> Cheers


I never really thought it possible because the females are at least half, if not a third of the size of a male but clearly it's possible and does happen! I'm glad you managed to save your male, and tbh that I'm not alone in struggling with these beauties. Was that in your big tank? I wondered if they had less of a hard time with other big fish around for the female to focus her aggression on (I don't want any more big fish in the tank, just hypothetical/for when I one day have a larger tank). I think what is interesting/depressing is that it happens in my big tank! In a 60cm or something it's not so surprising, but in this tank with lots of other fish to focus on and lots of space it's still a stressful behaviour. I trimmed the jungley top just before I really started to notice the aggression, so I think will not do that and keep it overgrown for a while and see if that helps too. 



ScareCrow said:


> It is a bit of a problem with cichlids unfortunately. Damn their beauty and interesting behaviour that draws us in just to frustrate us when all hell breaks loose when they breed.
> I had the opposite issue, my male krib got really aggressive with the female almost straight after spawning he wanted to keep her away from the eggs but she was intent on guarding them. As there were no other fish to keep away from the eggs I think he thought he was doing his job of protecting them by keeping the female away.
> Anyway the solution was one of those mesh hang on breeding boxes that sit inside the tank. They're not very big or nice to look at but it was better than the female getting beaten up and like you I didn't have a spare tank.
> If you do go that route I'd put some floating plants in the breeder box, otherwise the fish in there will be stressed by any movement over the top of them as they can't dart down.



It's soooo true, they're so beautiful and intelligent and funny.... and murderous!! I'll get a breeder box for when things look bad again that's a great tip thanks, I think that's a good idea for a time out. Not sure if I'd put him in or her... Luckily have a billion floating plants on hand 😅 I do wonder if some classic apistogramma dither fish is an answer, like a group of pencilfish but am waiting for my tank to get really jungley everywhere before getting any more fish cos it's quite well stocked already. I do wonder though if I still have many kuhlis, I only see 1 small baby one and 1 fat adult one once a week if that. Probably one day I'll take this scape down and find hundreds of them living under the wood 😂


----------



## AlecF

Not Beckford's pencilfish, they can make a tank just as fraught!


----------



## shangman

AlecF said:


> Not Beckford's pencilfish, they can make a tank just as fraught!


Aha, maybe not them then! What do you suggest? I am always attracted to the hockeystick pencilfish which looks relatively gentle. Are there any others?


----------



## AlecF

I'm too much of a newbie to suggest, but maybe hockey sticks. Others will know better. The Beckford's can be very fierce and they have a very strong sense of territory. I had to give them away, though they kindly left behind some hidden fry so I now have 3 more to gift, when that's possible – they are rapidly growing up. The descriptions often make out the M only spar, but I found they dominated my community tank. Maybe another territorial fish like an aristo would frighten them, but why risk it.


----------



## Conort2

shangman said:


> Was that in your big tank?


No it was in a much smaller 18inch tank so was always a gamble. Funny enough the female is looking after another spawn in the big tank currently. The males colouration isn’t as vibrant as it normally is and I was a little bit worried. Turns out I know what the issue is, the female! She’s decided she doesn’t want his help this time and is chasing him all around when she locks eyes on him. This is a 5ft tank so not sure what size tank is required for complete safety. Funny fish these cichlids, one day they’re best friends the next she’s ready to kill!



AlecF said:


> Not Beckford's pencilfish, they can make a tank just as fraught!


Or mortenthaleri! They need a lot of space if you don’t want any drama.

Cheers


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


AlecF said:


> The descriptions often make out the M only spar, but I found they dominated my community tank.





Conort2 said:


> Or mortenthaleri! They need a lot of space if you don’t want any drama.


My experience of all the Pencilfish family is that <"they are quite feisty"> and that the males really don't like one another.  

cheers Darrel


----------



## Conort2

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> 
> My experience of all the Pencilfish family is that <"they are quite feisty"> and that the males really don't like one another.
> 
> cheers Darrel


I find this with a lot of characins not just pencils. All my hyphessobrycon males can be pretty hard on one another when they’re in the mood to breed and don’t allow any other fish near their ‘patch’. As for iguanodectes, when they’re in the mood they take over most of the tank!


----------



## mort

I have mentioned it many times before but I've not had any problems keeping pencilfish but I do keep them differently to most. I actually like a bit of feistyness in fish provided it doesn't cause to many problems, so perhaps I just don't see their behaviour as anything to worry about, they do have some of the mini cichlid charm.
I don't think your apistogramma would benefit from them however as you have a great group of other fish already but N. eques are really quite gentle ime and more inclined to sulk about the tank in the shadows, rather than in the open. N. marginatus is another nice species but ideally you'd need 10-12 of any pencilfish to get the best out of them.


----------



## shangman

AlecF said:


> I'm too much of a newbie to suggest, but maybe hockey sticks. Others will know better. The Beckford's can be very fierce and they have a very strong sense of territory. I had to give them away, though they kindly left behind some hidden fry so I now have 3 more to gift, when that's possible – they are rapidly growing up. The descriptions often make out the M only spar, but I found they dominated my community tank. Maybe another territorial fish like an aristo would frighten them, but why risk it.


Sounds like a bit of a nightmare!! Did you have lots of plants at the top of the tank, and did they stay at the top or go all over? I won't keep this type but interesting to know!!



Conort2 said:


> No it was in a much smaller 18inch tank so was always a gamble. Funny enough the female is looking after another spawn in the big tank currently. The males colouration isn’t as vibrant as it normally is and I was a little bit worried. Turns out I know what the issue is, the female! She’s decided she doesn’t want his help this time and is chasing him all around when she locks eyes on him. This is a 5ft tank so not sure what size tank is required for complete safety. Funny fish these cichlids, one day they’re best friends the next she’s ready to kill!
> 
> Or mortenthaleri! They need a lot of space if you don’t want any drama.
> 
> Cheers


Interesting that she has a go at him when she has babies! Generally once mine has babies she's fine, it's the bit before where she gets nasty. When she had babies a few weeks ago she was quite gentle with the male, who interestingly spent his whole time chasing the other fish to protect them, my last male apisto never did this and totally shirked his fatherly duties. Reminds me in that article that "lazy" male behaviour apparently annoys some females!

Those coral reds were already off the list, I remember you saying how vicious they were! Such a shame they are so beaut.



dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> 
> My experience of all the Pencilfish family is that <"they are quite feisty"> and that the males really don't like one another.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Great, maybe not the right kind of fish to add then! 😂 I don't mind some sparring as long as they're not killing eachother, sounds like they might do just that though! Love that you linked an old thread of mine, I totally forgot about it, loads of useful info in there!! Seems like my (sort of) plan of waiting a few more months for more jungleness to establish, going for eques and being very particular about the sex ratios would be good.



Conort2 said:


> I find this with a lot of characins not just pencils. All my hyphessobrycon males can be pretty hard on one another when they’re in the mood to breed and don’t allow any other fish near their ‘patch’. As for iguanodectes, when they’re in the mood they take over most of the tank!


Every now and again my cardinals get snippy with eachother, like little colourful daggers dancing to protect their patch, though they're never too violent and it doesn't last long. The advtange for me with the pencils is that there's almost nothing swimming in the top half of the tank 90% of the time, so they would have a lot of territory for themselves.



mort said:


> I have mentioned it many times before but I've not had any problems keeping pencilfish but I do keep them differently to most. I actually like a bit of feistyness in fish provided it doesn't cause to many problems, so perhaps I just don't see their behaviour as anything to worry about, they do have some of the mini cichlid charm.
> I don't think your apistogramma would benefit from them however as you have a great group of other fish already but N. eques are really quite gentle ime and more inclined to sulk about the tank in the shadows, rather than in the open. N. marginatus is another nice species but ideally you'd need 10-12 of any pencilfish to get the best out of them.



Tbh I don't mind fiestiness as long as there isn't murder in the cards. If it wasn't for my last male apisto dying suspiciously I wouldn't be so worried about this apisto behaviour! Both those species do look lovely, I think they are the top contenders, 10-12 would be my aim. The marginatus have a lovely stripe that's very appealing. We'll see how it shakes out and how the tank is doing in a few months, it seems like the higher light, copious root tabs and stable co2 is really starting to make a difference and the top half of the tank especially looks so fabulous now I can't help but imagine some lovely pencils swimming about it in since none of the other fish are that interested. Will post a pic on Sunday once I've redone the front a bit!


----------



## AlecF

I had lots of floating plants, but my tank is low and long, so there was less sense of a middle and top. Plants, rocks, it made no difference. The dominant M ruled 75% of the tank, the second one had 25%, and the other M and F's hid. I tried adding more F. No help. The Peacock Goby also hid. The Cory weren't that keen either. They are fast fish so the aggression makes the tank feel agitated, and the disputes were constant. Everyone goes on about the shoulder barging, which is fine, and fun, but that was quite rare, mostly it was spitfire attacks. I've really enjoyed my tank since they left. I have sparklers and Peacocks, which can be aggressive, sometimes very, sometime with injury, but it isn't a constant darting. Beckfords would make a wonderful species only.


----------



## mort

I've kept a group of N. beckfordi for around a decade and as far as im aware, I have never lost any due to interspecific aggression. I lost a couple to dropsy which may have been brought on by sparring but I couldn't say for certain but in all the time I've had them I've never seen any damage to any of them, not even a split fin. The same goes for my brother who only has a group of six, peacefully living together for two years in his community tank. I'd like to think mine have died of old age as they reach 5-6 years and then gently fade. I did lose a couple to jumpy but I added glass lids and they have been fine since. My brother does have one with what I think is a thyroid tumour (which is a known problem) but I've never had one of mine get one.
This species nearly always stays at the top and rarely comes down more than half the tank height. With eques I've not seen them more than a few inches from the suface and other species I've kept have also stayed near the top. The tank is pretty jungly but with an open area around the middle and upper areas. It's fairly similar to your tank but with a mass of floating plants on one side.

It's quite odd really when I read of other peoples troubles with them because it seems like we are talking about two different species, mine, pretty quiet that wouldn't say boo to a goose, and others that have mini murderous monsters. I don't doubt any of observations but it's just the polar opposite to my decade plus experience of the family and it does put me off recommending them now. I tend to just suggest lampeyes now for people wanting a peaceful upper water species. They are lovely fish but they don't have the same charm.


----------



## AlecF

I did read vague stories of a variety bred in Asia which were more aggressive, so it is possible that there are different strains as, I agree, the accounts do differ wildly. I would say, as a guess, that if you have the aggressive kind then no style of tank would make a difference, so maybe try to buy from someone who has bred them and can speak to their behaviour. Like I said, my issue wasn't the shoulder barging, it was constant chasing the length of the tank. I wonder, Mort, if you had a more dominant larger fish species in there, and that made the Beckfords hold back?


----------



## mort

AlecF said:


> I wonder, Mort, if you had a more dominant larger fish species in there, and that made the Beckfords hold back?



No, the beckfords were/are the show fish. They lived with a pygmy cory group then adolfoi group with hengli rasbora and the occasional tiny fry from something else I was growing up. I've never once seen them even look at another fish and they are the same in my brothers tank and he has cardinals, pentazona barbs, plus some other randoms and a crazy goby. 
I originally got 12 that didn't sell in a lfs, so got a deal and I kept them at a 12-15 group size. As they bred I moved some on but also swapped the odd one for some more breeding vigour. The new ones came from different sources and I've not witnessed any difference in the behaviour. They have always been added to the tank last though, which may have some bairing idk.


----------



## AlecF

It's a mystery Mort! I added mine last. Such a fascinating hobby.


----------



## shangman

Had a really lovely day yesterday, went with @Courtneybst on a lil roadtrip to World of Water, where I was hoping to get some aeschynomene fluitans. To my delight, they had it in stock.... And then I realised they had LOADS OF GREAT PLANTS OMGGGGGGG AW YISSSSS. Honestly I think it is the best place to buy plants in the UK, they have the normal range of tropica and things like that, AND they have all sorts of unusual plants I've never seen anywhere except maybe Aquasabi before Brexit. Very reasonably priced, and a great place to go and nerd out about plants and tanks with Dan who stocks it all. Also, all of the plants are just in fantastic health, and there are common plants I bought here that I'd never considered before, but they looked so luscious I couldn't resist and I'm really glad I didn't! I'm a big fan of buying plants not because it goes with your scape, but because they're just beautiful, they'll always fit if you just get what you love. 

Some unusual and VERY NICE plants I acquired, hopefully some do well! -
_Aeschynomene fluitans_ - the reason I went and it does not disappoint!! Just a fabulous beautiful plant. 
_Hydrocleys nymphoides_ - eventually this should grow into a floating plant with lovely flowers like poppies. I've got 3 plants growing along runners so planted the first runner and letting the rest rise up to float. Bit of an experiment which is always exciting.
_Ludwigia helminthorrhiza_ - a floating ludwigia, with fascinating modified white roots that are filled with air and act as bouys! One of the things I loved about Green Planet was how they showed the fascinating adaptations of waterplants which all these floating plants really epitomise, so cool.





_Lagenandra thwaiteseii_ - my eyes went 👀👀👀 when I saw this, cos I've never seen it before and it's a lovely aroid (love of aroids runs in my family). It's gone in the front of the tank cos it's so nice, I hope it gets massive. I've got 2 bits in the soil, one on wood as an epiphyte experimentally. Kinda wish I'd bought the second pot!
_Echinodorus Regine Hildebrandt_ - IMPOSSIBLE to not buy, look how PINK these leaves are. Have found it hard to find genuinely nice red echinodorus for ages, v glad to have found this, and lovely ruffles too. What I also love is these plants have been growing in WoW's lowtech system, that they're this pink in lowtech is awesome. 
_Echinodorus hormanii_ - interesting small long brown-red-copper leaves, I have 10 types of echinodorus in this tank now, I'm screwed when they all grow bigger (3 of them are originals from my old tank and a bit rubbish tho) I truly cannot stop myself when I see a nice one. You can't see in the picture how nice the colour is, and how the veining stands out on the older green leaves.




Some not so unusual, but very luscious plants I bought:
_Potomogenton gayi _- couldn't resist how luscious this was, turns out it's the perfect bushy filler plant for my tank I was always missing. Goes great with the trident fern, and the fish look so good swimming amongst it, great for hiding. Kinda wish I'd bought a second bunch, but looking online it seems like it grows v fast so will have plenty more soon.
_Lileopsis brasiliensis_ -  a small but wild looking carpeting plant for the little bit of soil in the front, I think it looks a bit more natural than hairgrass.
_Anubias barteri glabra _- apparently the same as _anubias minima_ my fav anubias, I already have 2 and when I redid the front right wood I realised I needed at least 1 more. Anyone else a fan? I feel like I don't see it much even though it's lovely with darker purpley stems and yellow new leaves. Very tropical looking and provides great structure to the tank.
_Crypt purpura_ - to fill in the dark gaps in corners, lovely!

I didn't even buy all the nice plants they had, there was loads more that I just don't have space for, particularly the lilies are beaut. Def recommend a visit if you can, I'm looking forward to going again in late spring/early summer for my pond plants and whatever else interesting I can find. I love how good the shops are in this hobby, so satisfying finding great things for the tank!! As a big plant nerd it is so satisfying to have a tank full of beautiful unusual plants, this is what I got CO2 for tbh.

I also bought 5 platinum ricefish which have a gorgeous pearlescent blue sheen. Seeing them made me realise I think in my other group of 5 I only have females lol, so hopefully now they'll start to breed. They've gone in my other tank for now so will take some pics and put them in that journal. They had some other lovely little fish like butterfly barbs and some (very tempting) marginatus PENCILS... with all these new plants the tank is getting closer to be ready for some.



The reason I "_needed_" so many plants is that I've done quite a lot to the tank over the past few weeks, I haven't been happy with the front right for ages and it's really annoyed me, but only just recently had the time to fix it. I've also been vaguely dreading it so got help from @Courtneybst. There were 2 problems - 1 I used old soil to save money when I did the tank at first, which degraded into mud and had no nutrition and plants just die or hang on in it, and 2, the right "horn" of wood kept falling down when I first added it so my dad suggested attaching it to a GIANT rock, which worked but looked rly ugly and made it hard to plant anything. 




_After adding the soil_




So we took everything out and replace the soil, and then thought... hmm, do I even need the horn of wood? Maybe it is nicer just seeing the giant wood piece in the back. We found a spare bit of riverwood in the garden and planted that and I thought it was quite nice, and interesting to see the tank more open.

annnnndddd... I woke up the next morning, looked in the tank and thought NOPE, I must have my horn back! I didn't like how without it the tank felt so open, I much prefer how protected the tank feels with the wood and more jungly and the perfect place for more emergent plants to attach to. It framed it well. So I realised I could take off the rock and screw some azalea twigs on to act as struts to keep it up and at a better angle, which has worked perfectly! The front now looks sooo much better, really happy with it! This pic is rubbish cos it's with the phone, will get the camera out soon.







​
Then... on the main wood is a lot of buce and moss... And clado algae, particularly on the lower area, so finally I pulled it all out, chucked the moss and algae and carefully picked it out of the buce and other little rarer plants in there. I made a thread "net" with some lead plant weights to hold it all down, which was a bit dodgy but kinda worked. I wish glue worked better for me but it just doesn't seem to stick the plants to the wood at all, just makes a mess and they still float off. Finally I've been moving around the trident as some of the placements in the above photo were off. Also I sifted all the sand using a tea strainer and a huge pile of old soil came out, look so much better now.

Just took some FTS photos with the plants added.... and my card reader won't work so we'll have to say update done for now and see if I can get that working tonight or tomoz or something. Whoops! Can't wait until the plants have settled a bit more, I think it's gonna look really nice. For a while the tank has been serving woodland vibes, and with all these new plants it's finally giving tropical jungle which is awesome, just what I imagined when I first set it up.


----------



## John q

shangman said:


> _Potomogenton gayi _- couldn't resist how luscious this was, turns out it's the perfect bushy filler plant for my tank I was always missing. Goes great with the trident fern, and the fish look so good swimming amongst it, great for hiding. Kinda wish I'd bought a second bunch, but looking online it seems like it grows v fast so will have plenty more soon.



Beautiful plant and definitely grows like a weed, I got some off @Wookii a while ago and its world domination attempt is a close second to vallisneria.

Tank looks fantastic @shangman


----------



## Wookii

John q said:


> Beautiful plant and definitely grows like a weed, I got some off @Wookii a while ago and its world domination attempt is a close second to vallisneria.
> 
> Tank looks fantastic @shangman



I ripped all mine out when I rescaped last year, I just couldn’t keep it under control. I removed every last leaf and stem . . . but I did reuse the soil. 6 months later I now have P. Gayi everywhere again - runners in virtually all four corners of the tank! It’s a beautiful plant but clearly virtually indestructible!


----------



## Courtneybst

Wookii said:


> I ripped all mine out when I rescaped last year, I just couldn’t keep it under control. I removed every last leaf and stem . . . but I did reuse the soil. 6 months later I now have P. Gayi everywhere again - runners in virtually all four corners of the tank! It’s a beautiful plant but clearly virtually indestructible!


Does it grow tall?

Great photos btw @shangman !


----------



## Wookii

Courtneybst said:


> Does it grow tall?



Yep, I’ve no idea how tall as a maximum but I pulled stems well in excess of 50cm from my tank.


----------



## John q

Courtneybst said:


> Does it grow tall?


Reaches the top of my tank 500mm and then grows the full length of it, left untrimmed it will grow in excess of 1.5 metres.


----------



## Courtneybst

Wookii said:


> Yep, I’ve no idea how tall as a maximum but I pulled stems well in excess of 50cm from my tank.





John q said:


> Reaches the top of my tank 500mm and then grows the full length of it, left untrimmed it will grow in excess of 1.5 metres.



For a second I started to consider it but then I recalled the headache I ended up with using vallisneria and nymphoides. Bolbitis is good enough for me!


----------



## shangman

John q said:


> Beautiful plant and definitely grows like a weed, I got some off @Wookii a while ago and its world domination attempt is a close second to vallisneria.
> 
> Tank looks fantastic @shangman


When I got home yesterday and was showing off all my new plants to my dad it was the only plant I couldn't remember the name of, but I could remember that @Wookii had some so found the name in one of his journals! 😅

I have great respect for plants that grow vigorously and I look forward to it! My hydrocotyle is the same, luckily 90% of my plants are slow growers so having one or two vigorous plants isn't too bad. Can always offload it in the sales section ... Or the compost heap 👀

Can't wait to show you guys how it looks with all the plants in, all those FTS are before! Feel like I've fallen in love with the tank again, tonight is looking so luscious and textured. It's got an obscene number of different plant species in it now but I think I just about get away with it! 😀 Gonna look sick in a few weeks if the new plants survive and thrive.



Courtneybst said:


> For a second I started to consider it but then I recalled the headache I ended up with using vallisneria and nymphoides. Bolbitis is good enough for me!


Go on... I'll give you some of my clippings in a few weeks! It looks lovely in the flow, really feathery 😀


----------



## John q

shangman said:


> Go on... I'll give you some of my clippings in a few weeks! It looks lovely in the flow, really feathery 😀


@Courtneybst  it can be tamed, it just needs vigorous pruning, also worth mentioning that some folks don't like the aerial roots that tend to get produced. 
This was recently trimmed, probably about 1.2 mtrs at the min.


----------



## KirstyF

Sounds like you had a fab day out @shangman and great to hear you so excited about ur tank and ur new plants. That’s what this hobby is for. 😊

Can you confirm perchance which World of Water branch you went to. It sounds like it’s worth a visit.


----------



## shangman

KirstyF said:


> Sounds like you had a fab day out @shangman and great to hear you so excited about ur tank and ur new plants. That’s what this hobby is for. 😊
> 
> Can you confirm perchance which World of Water branch you went to. It sounds like it’s worth a visit.


It was great 😂 been feeling a bit in a rut with the tank for a while and all these lovely plants fixed it thoroughly. It's funny I grew up with plant obsessed parents and it never really connected before, but through this hobby I'm just as bad! 

It's the Enfield branch, ask for Dan and tell him you're on UKAPS cos he lurks


----------



## shangman

Well now I'm feeling much happier about the tank, and particularly about the many floating plants... I'm gonna order some pencilfish for my birthday which is at the end of next month (to give them time to get them in!). We've been talking about it in this journal and others for ages so I think now is the right time.

I've narrowed it down to two.... nannostomus eques, for their seahorse-like gentle behaviour, or nannostomus marginatus (ideally Peruvian), for their lovely striping and because @Jenni <raved about them here> and they sounded great to me. I am planning on getting 12-15. The eques are so gentle and lovely, but atm I'm thinking the marginatus are probably more appropriate for my tank right now, eques may be a fish for a future tank? What do you guys think? 







I also need to prepare the tank a little more for them in the meantime. Obviously no.1 is just to let the floating plants take over, which is a very easy step. I may also increase the light for the poor plants below to make sure they get some light, and to make the floating plants even happier.

No.2 is that the flow from my front filter, which has a jet lilypipe on it is very very strong right at the top, and I think it's a bit much for pencils, they'd have to avoid that area as most of my current fish already do cos they'll get blasted. So I need a new lilypipe which spreads the flow a bit more gently AND doesn't disturb the distribution of my co2. It also needs to be at least 5cm below the surface, my current jet lilypipe is very shallow and the top lip is only 1inch from the surface, making it impossible for me to lower the waterline more than 1inch - it becomes VERY loud when above the waterline and the tank is in my bedroom so no bueno. I currently have my waterline at only 1.5cm below the top glass, I haven't had any jumpers in months and months, but obviously with pencilfish I need to at least lower it for a few months to observe them and see how they act before considering it being any higher. So any suggestions for a lilypipe that would work for this?

At the top of the tank a lot of the flow is baffled by plants and there are lots of areas at the top with low for for them, so I think the flow isn't a veto for the fish but I'd like it to be a bit calmer if possible so they have even more territory.

I'm also thinking of getting some rooibos teabags to stain the tank a little, the leaves I add just don't stain the water much even when I add a lot and I think it could be interesting, I quite like a tint tbh.


----------



## pat1cp

Nice tank @shangman 👍


----------



## mort

Whilst I love N. eques I would vote marginatus because they are bolder and will likely settle in your tank better. I think eques are perfect in a really quiet tank that you don't do to much to.

I wouldn't be overly concerned about the flow tbh. Mine are in a tank with a spray bar and that makes a lot of the surface higher flow. They tend to sleep in the quieter areas but swim are in the current quite a bit during the day. A lot of the time though, they are to be found hunting in the floating plant roots, which settle in the quieter zones.


----------



## mort

I will add that the only times I hear my pencils jump (I have lids so it's not a big problem) is when the lights go off. In the summer this isn't an issue because the tank is still lit by the window but in the winter it is much darker and spooks them. If you can gently fade your lighting over a short period of time with a controller then it will help enormously (the same goes for when it comes on).


----------



## Wookii

shangman said:


> I've narrowed it down to two.... nannostomus eques, for their seahorse-like gentle behaviour, or nannostomus marginatus (ideally Peruvian), for their lovely striping and because @Jenni <raved about them here> and they sounded great to me. I am planning on getting 12-15. The eques are so gentle and lovely, but atm I'm thinking the marginatus are probably more appropriate for my tank right now, eques may be a fish for a future tank? What do you guys think?



I love the looks of the Marginatus, I’m definitely getting a shoal of those for my forthcoming 1500. I did see some Eques in my local MA on Monday actually and they did look cool all hanging their together.



shangman said:


> I'm also thinking of getting some rooibos teabags to stain the tank a little, the leaves I add just don't stain the water much even when I add a lot and I think it could be interesting, I quite like a tint tbh.



One small word of warning - I’ve tried two types one an artisan type off Amazon, and the other the Sainsburys own brand. If your thinking of adding them straight to the tank, both colour the water nicely, but where the artisan bags are still in tact a week later, the Sainburys ones disintegrate spilling tea all over the tank. I use a very fine mesh filter bag now to put the Sainsburys bags in.


----------



## shangman

mort said:


> Whilst I love N. eques I would vote marginatus because they are bolder and will likely settle in your tank better. I think eques are perfect in a really quiet tank that you don't do to much to.
> 
> I wouldn't be overly concerned about the flow tbh. Mine are in a tank with a spray bar and that makes a lot of the surface higher flow. They tend to sleep in the quieter areas but swim are in the current quite a bit during the day. A lot of the time though, they are to be found hunting in the floating plant roots, which settle in the quieter zones.


I think you're right, the marginatus are the ones to go for, they do seem really lovely too. Really interesting about the flow!! Luckily because of the wood and all the plants there are areas of high flow and practically none, and lots of floating plants and roots so I think they'll be ok then, that's great to know!



mort said:


> I will add that the only times I hear my pencils jump (I have lids so it's not a big problem) is when the lights go off. In the summer this isn't an issue because the tank is still lit by the window but in the winter it is much darker and spooks them. If you can gently fade your lighting over a short period of time with a controller then it will help enormously (the same goes for when it comes on).


Oh that's great, my lights are on a ramp up and down in the morning and evening and are nicely gradual already. I'm a little worried about turning the lights in the bedroom on and off in the evening after the tank lights have turned off at 9, but maybe will see how it goes as the other fish in the tank rn don't react at all to them. Maybe is a good idea to just put clingfilm around the tank so they can't jump out at all for the first few weeks (I usually do this with new fish anyway), and can watch for any jumping and if it's in an actual issue or not! I was reading up about the marginatus last night and several people said they just had lots of floating plants and never saw them jump interestingly.

Do you have any ideas about the marginatus in different areas? It looks like they have different colours, but I haven't found a place that actually matches pictures with the regions to ask about it. I think the yellow ones are from Peru?



Wookii said:


> I love the looks of the Marginatus, I’m definitely getting a shoal of those for my forthcoming 1500. I did see some Eques in my local MA on Monday actually and they did look cool all hanging their together.
> 
> One small word of warning - I’ve tried two types one an artisan type off Amazon, and the other the Sainsburys own brand. If your thinking of adding them straight to the tank, both colour the water nicely, but where the artisan bags are still in tact a week later, the Sainburys ones disintegrate spilling tea all over the tank. I use a very fine mesh filter bag now to put the Sainsburys bags in.


We have very similar taste in fish clearly!!

I was thinking of brewing it up separately and adding it in then, but interesting you can just add it to the tank! Great to know, will sew up a little bag for it. When you add it straight to the tank, how long does it take to colour the water?


----------



## Wookii

shangman said:


> I was thinking of brewing it up separately and adding it in then, but interesting you can just add it to the tank! Great to know, will sew up a little bag for it. When you add it straight to the tank, how long does it take to colour the water?



It starts colouring it straight away, but similar to botanicals, it’s doesn’t last very long. I struggle to keep any tint for any period of time, maybe a day or two at most -  I believe it’s the light that removes it. A chunk of Mopani or peat are likely a better long term solution, but neither are ideal.


----------



## Conort2

shangman said:


> nannostomus eques


I think they’ll look great in there, very unique swimming style. They’ll stand out.



shangman said:


> also need to prepare the tank a little more for them in the meantime


I use clear acrylic cut into triangles on my front corner to prevent jumpers if that’s what you’re worried about. Not as nice as no covering at all but not the ugliest thing in the world.

I’ve only had one fish jump the whole time I’ve had these in place and that was a newly introduced iguanodectes which are like torpedos!

Cheers


----------



## shangman

Wookii said:


> It starts colouring it straight away, but similar to botanicals, it’s doesn’t last very long. I struggle to keep any tint for any period of time, maybe a day or two at most -  I believe it’s the light that removes it. A chunk of Mopani or peat are likely a better long term solution, but neither are ideal.


Ahh damn, this is what happens to me when I add leaves too, they tint briefly and then it's gone, which is a big shame cos the tint adds so much atmosphere!! Will try it anyway, its still good to experience sometimes!



Conort2 said:


> I think they’ll look great in there, very unique swimming style. They’ll stand out.
> 
> 
> I use clear acrylic cut into triangles on my front corner to prevent jumpers if that’s what you’re worried about. Not as nice as no covering at all but not the ugliest thing in the world.
> 
> I’ve only had one fish jump the whole time I’ve had these in place and that was a newly introduced iguanodectes which are like torpedos!
> 
> Cheers


Aha! That's a good idea, I think it won't look too bad either. How high do you keep your waterline from the top with them?



pat1cp said:


> Nice tank @shangman 👍


Thanks!


----------



## shangman

Got the card reader to work, so pics of the tank from yesterday before I did a big waterchange and topped it up. Sadly the camera can't seem to capture how layered the plants are, it's all very 3D coming out of the wood and the flaoting plants are a much bigger area than the camera implies. Really liking the _philodendron micans _on the wood now too, I got 2 clippings for free and now the light is raised it's thriving, and sending out big white roots down the back. Adds a nice bit of colour to the emergents.


----------



## Conort2

shangman said:


> Aha! That's a good idea, I think it won't look too bad either. How high do you keep your waterline from the top with them?


Probably around an inch or so I recon. Seem to be quite lucky since I’ve implemented the corner covers.


----------



## Maf 2500

shangman said:


> the marginatus in different areas? It looks like they have different colours, but I haven't found a place that actually matches pictures with the regions to ask about it


I have seen two or more different types lumped in together in the same aquarium at some fish stores. Which is beyond unfortunate. They are on my list too, and when I get around to buying some I am going to 100% make sure they are all from the same shipment. Ordering them like you are seems a decent plan.

As you are probably already aware there is a decent possibility these variants will be recognised as multiple species when the genus Nannostomus is next reorganised. DNA studies have shown large genetic diversity between geographic populations in many pencilfish species. Different lineages within N. eques, for example, are believed to have diverged around 2.9 million yeras ago.


----------



## AlecF

Maybe that explains why some Beckfords are aggressive and some not.


----------



## Wookii

shangman said:


> Aha! That's a good idea, I think it won't look too bad either. How high do you keep your waterline from the top with them?



In addition you can let your Aeschynomene fluitans grow along the glass which makes for a good jump barrier I have found:


----------



## shangman

Conort2 said:


> Probably around an inch or so I recon. Seem to be quite lucky since I’ve implemented the corner covers.


Perfect, not that low at all, maybe can try them without changing the lilypipe then and just change it over if things go pearshaped.



Wookii said:


> In addition you can let your Aeschynomene fluitans grow along the glass which makes for a good jump barrier I have found:
> 
> View attachment 180307


omg this is genius! Will do that all along the backwall, the flow there is quite strong so no floaters stay which I'm always a bit hrmm about, but it'll still let light in to the plants below. Honestly this plant is sooo gorg AND useful on top?! Excellent.

No fish are gonna get past all those luscious plants in your tank wow!! It looks awesome.



Maf 2500 said:


> I have seen two or more different types lumped in together in the same aquarium at some fish stores. Which is beyond unfortunate. They are on my list too, and when I get around to buying some I am going to 100% make sure they are all from the same shipment. Ordering them like you are seems a decent plan.
> 
> As you are probably already aware there is a decent possibility these variants will be recognised as multiple species when the genus Nannostomus is next reorganised. DNA studies have shown large genetic diversity between geographic populations in many pencilfish species. Different lineages within N. eques, for example, are believed to have diverged around 2.9 million yeras ago.


I was planning on asking the Fish Barn to source some as they're really good at sourcing excellent quality fish and would understand that I'd want a group of all the same, cos yeah mixed groups no thanks! When I was looking up photos it's quite confusing as there is so much variability, who knows what you'll get? Makes total sense that they are different but similar looking species.



AlecF said:


> Maybe that explains why some Beckfords are aggressive and some not.


Totally could be it. Seems you got v unlucky with your variety of tiny piranha pencils... hopefully the marginatus don't have similar tendancies!


----------



## shangman

Wookii said:


> In addition you can let your Aeschynomene fluitans grow along the glass which makes for a good jump barrier I have found:
> 
> View attachment 180307


Incidentally, how bright at your lights now the whole tank is covered? Intrigued cos I'm wondering if I'll have to do this soon, and also if that's what it takes to get the aeschynomene flowering!! Love that pop of yellow 😍


----------



## Wookii

shangman said:


> I was planning on asking the Fish Barn to source some as they're really good at sourcing excellent quality fish and would understand that I'd want a group of all the same, cos yeah mixed groups no thanks! When I was looking up photos it's quite confusing as there is so much variability, who knows what you'll get? Makes total sense that they are different but similar looking species.



I have to admit, in my ignorance I didn’t even know there were different variants. Do they look quite different then?


----------



## Wookii

shangman said:


> Incidentally, how bright at your lights now the whole tank is covered? Intrigued cos I'm wondering if I'll have to do this soon, and also if that's what it takes to get the aeschynomene flowering!! Love that pop of yellow 😍



I have my Vivid II at around 70 watts, so around 50-55% of its maximum, but I dial the green down massively because the floaters add their own green filter. That said, it’s fairly dark and gloomy after a week of the floaters growing in.


----------



## shangman

Wookii said:


> I have to admit, in my ignorance I didn’t even know there were different variants. Do they look quite different then?


There are definitely different colours, and I've seen refeerences to the colours being down to where they're collected so I think so, unless someone who owns them has seen them change colour like some fish do!

It seems like the amount of red and yellow really varies, I like the first and fourth the most I think where there's a bit or yellow and red along with the very graphic stripe. I think the more yellow varieties are more likely to be from Peru? I haven't found anywhere that really spells it out yet though, might do some more looking this afternoon.



















Edit: 5th photo is _Nannostomus rubrocaudatus_ not _marginatus_​


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


Wookii said:


> Do they look quite different then?





shangman said:


> I haven't found anywhere that really spells it out yet though, might do some more looking this afternoon.


I've seen <"_Nannostomus marginatus_"> <"with yellow fins">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Wookii

shangman said:


> There are definitely different colours, and I've seen refeerences to the colours being down to where they're collected so I think so, unless someone who owns them has seen them change colour like some fish do!
> 
> It seems like the amount of red and yellow really varies, I like the first and fourth the most I think where there's a bit or yellow and red along with the very graphic stripe. I think the more yellow varieties are more likely to be from Peru? I haven't found anywhere that really spells it out yet though, might do some more looking this afternoon.



Interesting - that’s quite a variation! I’ve not actually seen any in a shop so far, only on the web, so in my minds eye your 1st and 4th pictures are what I’ve typically seen.


----------



## shangman

Wookii said:


> Interesting - that’s quite a variation! I’ve not actually seen any in a shop so far, only on the web, so in my minds eye your 1st and 4th pictures are what I’ve typically seen.


The ones I've seen in the shops are usually very drab looking brown and cream striped, and annoyingly I've never seen more than 6 otherwise I would've pounced! Sent a request to Fish Barn so will see if they get back to me with what they can get.



dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> 
> I've seen <"_Nannostomus marginatus_"> <"with yellow fins">.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Aha! Big thanks for the link, that's super useful. Should've known that Tom would have it covered!

Edit: had a look, I think the Peruvian ones are the money they're sooooo gorg, although tbh they're all very nice the Peruvian's yellow is fabulous!


----------



## John q

shangman said:


> unless someone who owns them has seen them change colour like some fish do!


Don't own them but believe light can be a big factor in them changing colours in our tanks. 

Out of interest is that 5th picture nannostomus marginatus? The only reason I ask is premier aquatics have acquired some nannostomus rubrocaudatus and they look identical to that picture.


----------



## shangman

John q said:


> Don't own them but believe light can be a big factor in them changing colours in our tanks.
> 
> Out of interest is that 5th picture nannostomus marginatus? The only reason I ask is premier aquatics have acquired some nannostomus rubrocaudatus and they look identical to that picture.


I think you're right! The photo was credited as _marginatus _but looking at the _rubrocaudatus _they're clearly that. Makes sense as they are the most different looking of that group.


----------



## shangman

John q said:


> Don't own them but believe light can be a big factor in them changing colours in our tanks.
> 
> Out of interest is that 5th picture nannostomus marginatus? The only reason I ask is premier aquatics have acquired some nannostomus rubrocaudatus and they look identical to that picture.


How much were they out of interest? Pencil prices seem all over the place I saw marginatus last week at £3.50, £6 and £11! Thought that last shop was also selling a red tiger lotus for £13 lol


----------



## Wookii

shangman said:


> How much were they out of interest? Pencil prices seem all over the place I saw marginatus last week at £3.50, £6 and £11! Thought that last shop was also selling a red tiger lotus for £13 lol



I’ve had these on my eBay wish list for a long long time:









						Dwarf Pencilfish - PEACEFUL TROPICAL FISH - Nannostomus Marginatus   | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Dwarf Pencilfish - PEACEFUL TROPICAL FISH - Nannostomus Marginatus  at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products!



					www.ebay.co.uk
				




I’ve had a couple of batches of fish from Kesgrave and they have been decent quality.

They stock about 4-5 different fish that I want!


----------



## John q

Not sure how much they were @shangman  I've messaged Steve and will report back, I suspect they won't be cheap.


----------



## mort

I read that the yellow variants are from Peru as well and it's been confirmed by seriously fish here under distribution 






						Nannostomus marginatus – Dwarf Pencilfish (Nannostomus marginatus picturatus) — Seriously Fish
					






					www.seriouslyfish.com
				




I do find that these and the other striped pencils can be very changeable when it comes to colour. Using my beckfords as an example they definitely change throughout the day based on mood and what they are doing. I've seen the same with marginatus, developing more red when they were being a bit feisty.


----------



## Maf 2500

Many of them change pattern completely at night also. Vertical bands rather than horizontal stripes.

Nannostomus eques – Hockeystick Pencilfish (Poeciliobrycon auratus, Poeciliobrycon eques) — Seriously Fish

https://www.seriouslyfish.com/wp-co...nnostomus-eques-night-pattern-Diane-Brown.jpg


----------



## shangman

Maf 2500 said:


> Many of them change pattern completely at night also. Vertical bands rather than horizontal stripes.
> 
> Nannostomus eques – Hockeystick Pencilfish (Poeciliobrycon auratus, Poeciliobrycon eques) — Seriously Fish
> 
> https://www.seriouslyfish.com/wp-co...nnostomus-eques-night-pattern-Diane-Brown.jpg


My tetras do this, they turn into creepy ghosts at night. I was looking up _Nannostomus espei_ too yesterday that have the _eques_ night vertical bars during the day, very nice and apparently rare so I assume too expensive for me 😂



mort said:


> I read that the yellow variants are from Peru as well and it's been confirmed by seriously fish here under distribution
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nannostomus marginatus – Dwarf Pencilfish (Nannostomus marginatus picturatus) — Seriously Fish
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.seriouslyfish.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do find that these and the other striped pencils can be very changeable when it comes to colour. Using my beckfords as an example they definitely change throughout the day based on mood and what they are doing. I've seen the same with marginatus, developing more red when they were being a bit feisty.


Good old Seriously Fish! The colourchanging sounds great, I love that part of fish behaviour. 



John q said:


> Not sure how much they were @shangman  I've messaged Steve and will report back, I suspect they won't be cheap.


Oh goodness do I ever want to know? 😅 I just looked on Kew Aquatics and there they were £17.80 each, evne more than the coral reds!



Wookii said:


> I’ve had these on my eBay wish list for a long long time:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dwarf Pencilfish - PEACEFUL TROPICAL FISH - Nannostomus Marginatus   | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Dwarf Pencilfish - PEACEFUL TROPICAL FISH - Nannostomus Marginatus  at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I’ve had a couple of batches of fish from Kesgrave and they have been decent quality.
> 
> They stock about 4-5 different fish that I want!


Oh I didn't think of ebay, that's def an option if the local shops fail me, I kinda love going to the shop and getting the fish and the ritual of that!! 

Conundrums.... Fish Barn have said they probs wouldn't get wild ones until mid summer cos it's the rainy season rn, which is a shame as I'd prefer to get them there over anywhere else but... summer... is far. Don't want them right this second, but in like 1 - 2 months when the new plants are grown in well ideally. I've seen they have some at TropCo which is only an hour away and for only £3.50 each for 10+, but then a friend said she saw them there and they looked in dodgy condition (though this was a few months ago I think.) Gonna call up Aquatic Design Center & Wholesale Tropicals and see if they have any and for how much. Ah another option is Kew Aquatics which are also about £3.50, and can make postage smaller by going and getting them myself. 

I'm thinking all these options aren't bad, but also... I think this time I'll be a good girl and set up a quarantine tank for a few weeks cos the only place I actually truly trust to give me really healthy fish is the Fish Barn lol, I do have my old 60L in the garden, could just be ugly and useful for a few weeks to make sure they're ok. I think probs ADC I trust too if they've had the fish for a while, I've never seen any disease there and bought many fish there. My tank is looking so heavenly like a lil garden of eden rn and the fish all frolicking about very healthy so it's time to be proper about it! No pandemic for my fishies!

Hmmmmmmm maybe waiting until summer/hopnig they might come a bit earlier for the Fish Barn is the way, what would you guys do?


----------



## Conort2

shangman said:


> Wholesale Tropicals and see if they have any and for how much


Wholesale normally have them and quite a few other pencils in stock most of the time. Think they sell them around the 3-4 pound mark if I remember rightly.


----------



## shangman

Conort2 said:


> Wholesale normally have them and quite a few other pencils in stock most of the time. Think they sell them around the 3-4 pound mark if I remember rightly.


Fabulous, I've actually never been so will do a trip there soon! If they have other pencils that's great to see them IRL and see some behaviour. Do you quarantine your fish from WT?


----------



## John q

Haha still not heard back from Mr Chester but I'd imagine they'll be around that price. 



shangman said:


> I do have my old 60L in the garden, could just be ugly and useful for a few weeks



👀  another tank... you'd obviously have to get some plants in there and make it nice a pretty, be ashame to tear it down after the quarantine. 😀


----------



## Conort2

shangman said:


> Fabulous, I've actually never been so will do a trip there soon! If they have other pencils that's great to see them IRL and see some behaviour. Do you quarantine your fish from WT?


It’s a really good shop, one of the best. Been going there since I was a little kid. The choice of fish there is great, Sell lots of nano species too. I think you’ll love it, pretty useless for plants though!

I don’t no, but that’s not to say you shouldn’t. I don’t think their quarantine is anywhere near as rigorous as the fish barn.


----------



## shangman

John q said:


> Haha still not heard back from Mr Chester but I'd imagine they'll be around that price.
> 
> 
> 
> 👀  another tank... you'd obviously have to get some plants in there and make it nice a pretty, be ashame to tear it down after the quarantine. 😀


The problem is I'm a disgusting SNOB and now I'll only have optiwhite tanks as my proper tanks 😂 my official tank with its bottom plastic trim and black silicon is simply not it any more. 

...I do have a 60L optiwhite in my room though getting ready for an experimental collaboration with an artist friend of mine but it won't be conventional, not sure if I can make a proper journal about it here, will see! 



Conort2 said:


> It’s a really good shop, one of the best. Been going there since I was a little kid. The choice of fish there is great, Sell lots of nano species too. I think you’ll love it, pretty useless for plants though!
> 
> I don’t no, but that’s not to say you shouldn’t. I don’t think their quarantine is anywhere near as rigorous as the fish barn.


Oh awesome, gonna go soon then 😀 I think the plants thing is what held me back, I went on their website when I first started and saw some plants bring sold as aquatic which are definitely not and mentally checked it off the list 😂 If is good for fish though... Looking forward to having a look around. 

Hopefully the boyfriend won't mind the quarantining lols, how long do you guys generally so it for if you see no issues?


----------



## Hufsa

shangman said:


> an experimental collaboration with an artist friend of mine but it won't be conventional


My mind is racing with the possibilities of what this could be, im very excited to see this now, you must show us at some point! I think I speak for all of us when I say that we demand it 

Maybe the fish will be plants.. Or the plants will be fish! The possibilities are endless


----------



## shangman

Hufsa said:


> My mind is racing with the possibilities of what this could be, im very excited to see this now, you must show us at some point! I think I speak for all of us when I say that we demand it
> 
> Maybe the fish will be plants.. Or the plants will be fish! The possibilities are endless


Lmaoooooooo I'm not a conceptual artist... the aim is still a beautiful aquarium eventually! Though no fish for quite a while! Will be having fun with materials


----------



## KirstyF

And the mystery thickens! 🤔😂


----------



## shangman

I was wondering how many plants I have now as I really think I can't fit many more in, so decided to write a list of all the plant species.

How many do I have?

 49 LOL

Looking forward to the new plants growing in better over the new 2 months and showing that you can have loads of different species and it still works!  I guess it's more of a garden than a natural scene, but it has nice flow and feel to it. I always was a maximalist! Very pleased that the CO2 is now working and plants are growing well enabling me to become this mad collector 

Maybe just want one more emergent stem or grass and then I'm fully done 👀

_Echinodorus Palaefolius
Echinodorus Cordifolius red
Echinodorus Red flame
Echinodorus Yellow sun
Echinodorus Rose
Echinodorus Red sword
Echinodorus Rubra
Echinodorus Hadi red pearl
Echinodorus Regine Hildebrant
Echinodorus Hormanii

Bucephalandra Theia
Bucephalandra Kedagang
Bucephalandra Mini
Bucephalandra Brownie ghost (invitro)

Anubias minima/barteri glabra
Anubias Coffeefolia
Anubias Coin

Lagenandra thwaiteseii    
Schismatoglotis roseospatha    
Aridarum sp.
Bolbitis heudelotii    
Microsorum pteropus 'Trident'    
Hymenasplenium obscurum    

Cryptocoryne  purpura
Cryptocoryne  Wendtii green
Cryptocoryne  Wendtii red
Cryptocoryne lucens

Hydrocotyle Leucocephala
Hydrocotyle verticillata

Marsilea Hirsuta
Nymphaea Santarem (I think)
Ludwigia sp red    
Potomogenton gayi    

Helanthium tenellum    
Lileopsis brasiliensis    
Eleocharis acicularis 'Mini'    

Aeschynomene fluitans    
Hydrocleys nymphoides    
Ludwigia helminthorrhiza    
Salvinia sp.    
Phyllanthus fluitans    
Pistia stratiotes    

Cameroon moss    
Phoenix moss    
Monosolenium tenerum    
Mini christmas moss    

Philodendron micans
Asplenium scolopendrium_

I'll probably take out the echinodorus rose, red sword and hadi red pearl eventually as they're a bit rubbish compared to the other beautiful echinodorus which will need space. Those three were from my original tank and have never thrived, but the newer ones I've bought are all doing much better. Also kept duckweed in the list, I keep trying to get rid of it but it seems impossible to eradicate in a tank like this, luckily the other floaters keep it minimal. I'm also slowly taking out the christmas moss as it looks kinda messy, my fav is the cameroon moss and I hope eventually that can take over more!

Might need one more plant just... to reach 50. Maybe an orchid!!


----------



## Hufsa

shangman said:


> _Hymenasplenium obscurum _


👀👀👀👀👀

..the precious..
Will you let me know how it grows? Where did you find it? Also where is it located in the tank so I can look for it in pictures


----------



## AlecF

Hufsa said:


> My mind is racing with the possibilities of what this could be, im very excited to see this now, you must show us at some point! I think I speak for all of us when I say that we demand it
> 
> Maybe the fish will be plants.. Or the plants will be fish! The possibilities are endless


Less a work of conceptual art, more a miracle...


----------



## plantnoobdude

very nice plant list : ) nice unusual plants but nothing too difficult to grow that causes headaches, I could learn a thing or two from your plant choices


----------



## Hufsa

The plant list is great, I think it is a good length. If one can remember all the plants in their tank off the top of their head, id say they don't have enough yet 😁


----------



## shangman

Hufsa said:


> 👀👀👀👀👀
> 
> ..the precious..
> Will you let me know how it grows? Where did you find it? Also where is it located in the tank so I can look for it in pictures


I got it quite early on in the hobby from buce2love before brexit and my dad wanted a clump of buce, I didn't really realise that that was potential dodgy then tbh whoops! That was the plant that intrigued me on there.

It went in my first lowtech tank and it gave my whole tank Spirogyra immediately lol. It didn't grow that much, and I realised it needed to go in a tank with wood hardscape and I didn't have that, do a few months later I set up my 30cm cube and it went in that. It grew a tiny bit but didn't do amazing.

Then last March when I got the tank of this journal, I set it up for my baby apistos and put the wood from the 30cm into this one with the ferns. I was lazy and kept the Twinstar light at 100% and the crepidomanes, as well as the moss, have fern and algae all free fabulously lol, the crepidomanes grew lots of plantlets.

Then I set my tank up as it is now and I had many issues (almost all documented here I think lol) and I almost killed it. But the tank is much more balanced for the past 2 months and I noticed a few days ago that the crepidomanes had regrown some nice healthy new leaves, still small but promising. Will update you on it when it hopefully grows even more and starts to really thrive, I think it will eventually!

Also will try to take a picture of it, it's on the wood below the hole.



AlecF said:


> Less a work of conceptual art, more a miracle...


Oh no, now I'm tempted to start wandering down a tangent of creating surrealist paintings of fish made of plants and plants made of fish! 😂

Already starting to practice painting again recently... Eventually got to print the cabinet nicely but have stupidly high standards so need to practice a lot, the list of things to do for this tank before it's right never ends...



plantnoobdude said:


> very nice plant list : ) nice unusual plants but nothing too difficult to grow that causes headaches, I could learn a thing or two from your plant choices


A very astute observation!!

It's got to look nice, and it can't just survive, it has to thrive, if they don't they're out. I'm very good at making mistakes and killing plants, so they're often out 😂

I had big problems with this tank when it started and killed all types of stem and carpeting plants and almost killed all sorts of nice plant with a dodgy regulator, flow is very off because the piece of wood hardscape is so big, too high lighting in some places and low in others also due to massive wood hardscape, second hand cheap nutrient-free substrate, not enough of the right kind of iron because of pH 😂. Many problems slowly worked out one my one. At first the stem plants dying really annoyed me as they were in my ~vision~ but I'm embracing these easier plants which are often forgotten in other high tech tanks but do great for me, and they grow very nicely. Luckily am a big fan of a large leaf.

Oh, you've reminded me I already have a 50th plant! Also got a little bit of _rotala macramnda mini something _recently from @Courtneybst to see if the balance in my tank is good enough to grow something fancy as an experiment.



Hufsa said:


> The plant list is great, I think it is a good length. If one can remember all the plants in their tank off the top of their head, id say they don't have enough yet 😁


😂 I keep having to edit the list as I remember or two more, when I first posted it I thought the number was 44! The biggest trick is actually remembering all the Latin names immediately when pointed to, can't do that yet 😱


----------



## Wookii

shangman said:


> The biggest trick is actually remembering all the Latin names immediately when pointed to, can't do that yet 😱



I can’t even pronounce the Latin names! It was embarrassing enough phoning World of Water and asking for Aeschynomene fluitans without sounding like I was calling from the pub after 6 pints! 🍻 😂


----------



## shangman

Wookii said:


> I can’t even pronounce the Latin names! It was embarrassing enough phoning World of Water and asking for Aeschynomene fluitans without sounding like I was calling from the pub after 6 pints! 🍻 😂


I would enjoy listening to that phone call 😂😂 So many ways to pronounce it! Dan mentioned that he sent you some when we went to WoW last week you made a good impression upon him. I think he lurks and just doesn't post here in case it looks like shop promo.

I'm not entirely sure there is a 100% "correct" way of pronouncing them all tho, you can always have a stab at it 😂 Some are easier than others. 

I'm not too bad at it once again due to my dad the trained & obsessive horticulturalist with an encyclopedic knowledge of plants (he seems to know the Latin name of every plant it's mad) ... and he's ancient enough to have been taught Latin at school, plus knows all sorts of Greek mythology which really helps with the names. I think a lot of people don't realise there is a lot of Greek in the Latin names of plants which is pronounced differently from the more straight forward Latin. For example some people pronounce _hydrocotyle_ as _hydro-cot-isle_ when it "should" be _hydro-cot-ily_, but also idk how much it actually matters 😂 I've noticed aquascaping experts pronouncing the names in all sorts of different ways so I don't think you should feel bad about it!


----------



## John q

shangman said:


> For example some people pronounce _hydrocotyle_ as _hydro-cot-isle_ when it "should" be _hydro-cot-ily_


Lol must be a northern thing I've been showing off to the Mrs and daughter pronouncing it as hydro-co-light 🤣


----------



## aec34

shangman said:


> I'm not entirely sure there is a 100% "correct" way of pronouncing them all tho, you can always have a stab at it 😂 Some are easier than others.


Can’t not come windmilling in on this as a Latin and Greek teacher / linguistics bod 😜 Pretty much no one now pronounces Latin or Classical Greek words as they were originally spoken anyway, so it REALLY doesn’t matter so long as we all know what plant we are taking about. (If in doubt, pronounce all vowels.)

And for a lot of terrestrial plants Linnaeus just kind of made the Latin up anyway...


----------



## Wookii

John q said:


> Lol must be a northern thing I've been showing off to the Mrs and daughter pronouncing it as hydro-co-light 🤣



Firmly in the same camp as me then John - I’ve always pronounced it in my head (because I’ve never had to say it out loud) as Hydro-coy-tial - again, also nothing like how it’s spelt lol


----------



## aec34

I mean, hydro-cotyle literally means ‘water cup’, if that helps...


----------



## shangman

aec34 said:


> Can’t not come windmilling in on this as a Latin and Greek teacher / linguistics bod 😜 Pretty much no one now pronounces Latin or Classical Greek words as they were originally spoken anyway, so it REALLY doesn’t matter so long as we all know what plant we are taking about. (If in doubt, pronounce all vowels.)
> 
> And for a lot of terrestrial plants Linnaeus just kind of made the Latin up anyway...


Totally this, I think what I consider the "right" way is just cos my dad has hammered it home every time I "mispronunce" a latin name my whole life lol, and I am dyslexic so it was a lot. 

The latin names are usually just basic descriptions when translated right? I guess if you've decided to give everything a name you can't be making it too complicated for yourself 😂 Reminds me I really need to read that book "There's No Such Thing As Fish" about how the family of fish is made up and that the taxonomy is extremely dodgy!


----------



## shangman

Another random question...

I've noticed there's quite a lot of small different algaes on my bolbitis in the middle of the tank, none on any of the others around the tank. Can I squirt some liquid carbon around it, will that harm the bolbitis? 
When I've used it previously that method killed some mosses but left the buces sparkling clean, not sure what it would do to bolbitis so just wanted to check first.


----------



## KirstyF

aec34 said:


> I mean, hydro-cotyle literally means ‘water cup’, if that helps...



Cool….just waiting on the translation for the other 49 plants 👍…..shouldn’t take you long 😂


----------



## Wookii

shangman said:


> I've started organising and writing my botanicals article/thread. I'm hoping to post it during the holidays. At the moment it includes this:
> 
> An introduction post on why botanicals are great/what the thread is about
> A post on What makes a "good" botanical for collecting, how/where to collect & prepare. Kinda an FAQ sort of bit. Also lots of links to further reading (have saved all the links you guys have sent me).
> A post with a massive table (not completely sure how I'm gonna do this but have asked @LondonDragon for advice) which lists all the botanicals we know work well, plus botanicals we think probably will, plus botanicals that shouldn't be used (ideally with some sort of green/yellow/red colours somewhere so it's clear). I've been collating from around UKAPS and the internet which plants people are using successfully to make the table, and will be including my own experiences & my dad's guesses lol.
> A post with a table on some specific plants good for food like dried green walnut leaves, nettles, etc. Since botanicals feed a lot of my fish (my otos don't eat any algae wafers or courgette now I have lots of botanicals), I thought this might be a nice little thing to go with everything else. TBH my tank looks better for not have courgette on sticks any more, and my otos are still fat!
> A post featuring users lovely aquariums full of interesting botanicals they've collected to inspire people
> ???? Any other ideas?
> 
> I want the thread to be collaborative, the table won't be complete and I am hoping it will inspire people to contribute so we can grow it. So hoping it can just be a big long great discussion for years, and I'm hpoing it will help prepare us for next Autumn so we can all go out and gather all sorts of good stuff!



How’s this coming along Rosie? I’m keen to get some recommendations of good ferns I can buy and grow out to farm some dried leaves 😉


----------



## Conort2

shangman said:


> Can I squirt some liquid carbon around it, will that harm the bolbitis?


I’ve used it on bolbitis with no issues, not to say it’s completely safe as glut is pretty harsh.


----------



## aec34

KirstyF said:


> Cool….just waiting on the translation for the other 49 plants 👍…..shouldn’t take you long 😂


😬


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


shangman said:


> "There's No Such Thing As Fish"


Go for it, <"cladistics is the way forward">.


shangman said:


> and that the taxonomy is extremely dodgy


Actually surprisingly good and, with and few exceptions, morphological and <"DNA based classification"> tend to <"line up pretty well">.   

cheers Darrel


----------



## shangman

Wookii said:


> How’s this coming along Rosie? I’m keen to get some recommendations of good ferns I can buy and grow out to farm some dried leaves 😉


Slowly tbh, I've been hitting roadblocks in how to present everything in a comprehensive way when it's such a big topic. And like, it would be the biggest table ever, so just a lot of organising. A bit overwhelming! Will get there eventually though, just trying to chip away slowly. I will ask my dad for some fern recommendations, did you see that post I made a while ago about bracken? Apparently that works great, if you boil it first to denature the toxin! But will still ask, this year the fern I liked is stubbornly refusing to dry out to be useable! Very annoying! And annoyingly most of our ferns disintegrated into small bits as they dried so not useful at all as botanicals.



dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Go for it, <"cladistics is the way forward">.
> 
> Actually surprisingly good and, with and few exceptions, morphological and <"DNA based classification"> tend to <"line up pretty well">.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Omg I need to keep my mouth shut today I'm saying all sorts of random rubbish when my brain paraphrases!! Total dyslexic/praxic moment I got the name wrong too lmao, it's "_Why Fish Don't Exist_" by Lulu Miller. I listened to a podcast about it that talks about how is about taxonomy and some things being sung but I guess that was more in depth cos all the descriptions of the book are that it's about a prominent historical fish taxonomist and the writers connection with him. Lulu does great podcast so probs v good


----------



## shangman

Went off to Wholesale Tropicals on Sunday... just to have a look, definitely not buy any fish. Certainly not...



... but....



....well.....



 ...I simply had to buy the marginatus pencils, they were very healthy and fat and stared right back at me, and nobody told me before how irridescent the pale parts of their stripes are! Proper gold/copper/pink/green constantly changing.

Luckily it was an excellent decision  Thank you all for helping me decide!










Also luckily my floating plants have been going bananas and are covering the top of the tank rapidly!

The pencils don't school about much at all over than the first day I put them in, but they are extremely charming and fascinating fish. They aren't afraid of me at all, and they have made almost all the fish in the tank less jumpy - I used to have to slowly slowly crawl forward hoping I didn't scare the fish (other than apistos who've never been shy), now I can just walk up to it and sit down without problems. I didn't really expect it but it's great, the cardinals and otos are particularly out in front in a way they never were before, or maybe just for 10 mins at feeding time. I'd describe the pencils as... confident lol

They're like if tetras were smart, which is funny and a bit dangerous. The pencils boldness is great, they are very curious and go about playing all day, having little fights and are already breeding. They seem interested in all the other species of fish which I've never really seen before, usually other fish ignore each other but they are so curious. They love chasing each other around and they are a bit teritorial but not in a vicious way. Their little displays are great, and the red fins on the males are soooo red it's amazing, hopefully I can catch one of their fights on camera soon.

I wouldn't exactly call them a top of the tank kind of fish, they use the whole tank top to bottom (they love sinking food and are often on the bottom looking for it) and I only occasionally see them right at the surface, although they do like the top 10cm where it's really a thicket of growth. I've got the whole tank wrapped in clingfilm for the first few weeks but I'm not too worried about jumping, I haven't seen any particularly jumpy behaviour and they're rarely that close to the surface. They also don't care about the high flow at all, and since they're shaped like torpedos it's not too surprising! Also they have really cute lil faces.

After 4 days I'd say A+ fish, would recommend. Looking forward to seeing what they're like over the next weeks and months!


----------



## Conort2

shangman said:


> Went off to Wholesale Tropicals on Sunday... just to have a look, definitely not buy any fish. Certainly not...


Thought they’d have them in stock, they usually do. Must say they look very healthy.

What did you think of the place? I’ve not been a while, are they well stocked up currently? Stocking was quite low during covid which was understandable, however it started to pick up again recently.


----------



## Wookii

shangman said:


> Went off to Wholesale Tropicals on Sunday... just to have a look, definitely not buy any fish. Certainly not...
> 
> 
> 
> ... but....
> 
> 
> 
> ....well.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...I simply had to buy the marginatus pencils, they were very healthy and fat and stared right back at me, and nobody told me before how irridescent the pale parts of their stripes are! Proper gold/copper/pink/green constantly changing.
> 
> Luckily it was an excellent decision  Thank you all for helping me decide!
> 
> 
> View attachment 180809
> 
> View attachment 180810​
> Luckily my floating plants have been going bananas and are covering the top of the tank rapidly!
> 
> The pencils don't school about much at all over than the first day I put them in, but they are extremely charming and fascinating fish. They aren't afraid of me at all, and they have made almost all the fish in the tank less jumpy - I used to have to slowly slowly crawl forward hoping I didn't scare the fish (other than apistos who've never been shy), now I can just walk up to it and sit down without problems. I didn't really expect it but it's great, the cardinals and otos are particularly out in front in a way they never were before, or maybe just for 10 mins at feeding time. I'd describe them as... bolshy lol
> 
> They're like if tetras were smart, which is funny and a bit dangerous. The pencils boldness is great, they are very curious and go about playing all day, having little fights and are already breeding. They seem interested in all the other species of fish which I've never really seen before, usually other fish ignore each other but they are so curious. They love chasing each other around and they are a bit teritorial but not in a vicious way. Their little displays are great, and the red fins on the males are soooo red it's amazing, hopefully I can catch one of their fights on camera soon.
> 
> I wouldn't exactly call them a top of the tank kind of fish, they use the whole tank top to bottom (they love sinking food and are often on the bottom looking for it) and I only occasionally see them right at the surface, although they do like the top 10cm where it's really a thicket of growth. I've got the whole tank wrapped in clingfilm for the first few weeks but I'm not too worried about jumping, I haven't seen any particularly jumpy behaviour and they're rarely that close to the surface. They also don't care about the high flow at all, and since they're shaped like torpedos it's not too surprising! Also they have really cute lil faces.
> 
> After 4 days I'd say A+ fish, would recommend. Looking forward to seeing what they're like over the next weeks and months!



Very nice, they look in excellent condition - I’m very envious, they’re definitely on my shortlist.


----------



## aec34

shangman said:


> They're like if tetras were smart, which is funny and a bit dangerous.


😂 I’ll not show this to the ringleader of my embers who was pecking about on the substrate earlier.


----------



## shangman

Conort2 said:


> Thought they’d have them in stock, they usually do. Must say they look very healthy.
> 
> What did you think of the place? I’ve not been a while, are they well stocked up currently? Stocking was quite low during covid which was understandable.


I thought it was a very interesting place, the bit I LOVED was the wall at the back left which was just full of fascinating fish of all types all mixed up together. All very healthy and lots of top choices. A lot of gobies which is always lovely to see, a few lovely unusual nano fish. It's definitely going in my rotation of shops now, and will check there when I get another tank cos I'm sooooo stocked up now lol. I don't think they were low stocked, but it's quite all over the place, but tbh I quite like that, feels like you might discover some treasure (I definitely felt I did). I think worth a visit, and I liked chatting to Lee while he caught the fish for me about his breeding SA fish escapades.

They had the coral pencils and they were BEAUTIFUL irl but omg that price... especially compared to the marginatus which were only £3.50 and still very lovely. They also had one-line pencils and Beckford's, great selection.



Wookii said:


> Very nice, they look in excellent condition - I’m very envious, they’re definitely on my shortlist.


You've gotta keep them, they've got enormous spirit and personality in buckets, lots of interesting behaviour. The tank is even more captivating now they live in it!

When I saw them I instantly knew I'd have to have them, didn't expect such nice big fat ones 😂 so much for my self control!



aec34 said:


> 😂 I’ll not show this to the ringleader of my embers who was pecking about on the substrate earlier.


If it was a fight the pencils would decimate, they're very happy to barge any fish they consider in their way, they're like Londoners among tourists 😂 even the apistos!

Luckily the tetras seem to really enjoy the pencils and are much more confident with them about, all the schooling fish like to go about in groups together which is very cute.


----------



## mort

Yay, I don't sound like the only mad aquarist spouting out a love of pencilfish anymore.

If you think they look nice in a led lit tank you should see them in natural sunlight.


----------



## shangman

mort said:


> Yay, I don't sound like the only mad aquarist spouting out a love of pencilfish anymore.
> 
> If you think they look nice in a led lit tank you should see them in natural sunlight.


I'm very glad you did all that spouting! 😂 It was you that really put the seed of keeping them in my head, and I'm so glad you did. They have so much personality, I can totally see why you'd keep them alone in a tank, they're so watchable and funny. 

I bet they look incredible in natural sunlight, I'm so taken by that irridescence and of course that's always best in sunlight. I would love to keep a tank in natural sun one day, hopefully sooner rather than later, though atm in our house all the windows are taken up by giant houseplants and that's a war with the parents I can't win!! Hopefully we will be expanding the house in the next few years and a fabulous natural tank can take pride of place.


----------



## Conort2

shangman said:


> They had the coral pencils and they were BEAUTIFUL irl but omg that price


I really need to breed mine before they get too old. Can’t be having people paying 12-15quid for them ha.

Glad you like the marginatus, pencil fish are great. As you’ve noticed already, more cichlid like than tetra.

Cheers


----------



## shangman

Conort2 said:


> I really need to breed mine before they get too old. Can’t be having people paying 12-15quid for them ha.
> 
> Glad you like the marginatus, pencil fish are great. As you’ve noticed already, more cichlids like than a tetra.
> 
> Cheers


They were £17 there  Great healthy specimens but omg. Could've asked for a deal but I think even then it'd be a bit much! I knew I wanted around 12 pencils so that took them off the list for now, along with you saying that they're demon fish lmao. You definitely should breed them! You'll have a rush of people wanting them I'm sure. I think I will try to keep them in a few years maybe, now I know how fab the pencils are. Mine have already started breeding in the foliage, will be fascinating to see if any fry manage to make an appearance.

They are much more cichlid like, they've got the full package - beauty, brains and funny. 😂 Also very happy that so far all my worries about them have been unfounded, the only "problem" is how greedy they are!


----------



## shangman

Starting to really get somewhere...

Ignore the clingfilm 😅 Sadly my buces at the bottom have pinholes all over them  I think it's time to do a pH pen CO2 test thing and make sure it's all balanced well, especially now the plant mass is becoming so much more substantial. I'm also planning to increase the light from 75 to 90, the floating plants block out a lot of light to the rest of the tank, and I think they'll like the extra light and maybe flower for me


----------



## Courtneybst

The pencils and the tetra are definitely a great combo!


----------



## shangman

Courtneybst said:


> The pencils and the tetra are definitely a great combo!


They really are, the way the pencils red fins match the tetras is fabulous. And after a week of keeping them, the tetras are DEFINITELY much more active and confident with the pencils around - they used to swim away when I came near, but now they follow the pencils lead and ignore me, or even come up to the front. The pencils have realised I mean tasty food times and are always happy to see me, and now the tetras are too. Huzzah! The tetras also school and play with eachother a lot more. My cardinals were always beautiful but I can appreciate them a lot more now! And very happy that they seem less afraid and more content


----------



## shangman

Listen guys

I'm afraid I have something to confess...

Very bad of me I know .... but I couldn't resist....

Last week when I bought the pencils, I may or may not have bought a little group of something else...

Actual footage of me at the shop:





Usually I would've had the strength to resist, but I went with my gang of fishy friends who were all like "GO ON GET THEM THEY'RE LOVELY" and "I'M GETTING SOME " and "I KEEP THEM AND THEY'RE A VERY LOW BIOLOAD!!". And I simply couldn't resist any longer.

So say hello to the itty bitty fishy committee...


















NO REGRETS! But also no more fish I promise 😂


----------



## Hufsa

shangman said:


> Actual footage of me at the shop:
> 
> View attachment 181211


I LOVE IT 😍😂



shangman said:


> the itty bitty fishy committee...


They are adorable!! Are they babies still? They look so tiny 🤯
Edit: Also what are they lmao


----------



## shangman

Hufsa said:


> I LOVE IT 😍😂
> 
> 
> They are adorable!! Are they babies still? They look so tiny 🤯
> Edit: Also what are they lmao


This meme is tooooooooooo accurate 😂 It's me every week on Seriouslyfish.com... Actually, time to go make that meme...

They are babies  lil _Dicrossus Filamentosus_. I'm hoping to keep them all but if not have some friends with groups too to make sure the ratios are good when they're older. The females stay rather small, and the males are bigger but they're more long and thin, a big perfect of them is glorious fins. I bought the 2 biggest and 3 smallest in hopes that comes out right, with the apisto babies that would've worked well.


----------



## shangman

My _Aeschynomene fluitans_ flowers for the first time! Very exciting. It's a weird plant, I have 2 sprigs of it - one grows VERY fast but the leaves drop quite quickly too, the other is much slower in growth but has healthier leaves. Not sure why they're different, I'm hoping it'll drop less leaves in Spring/Summer.

I bought Master Apisto in late November, where he was only as big as my female (about 4cm), orange with nice but not extravangant fins. He's grown A LOT in the past few months, and now his fins and colours are fabulous, about 7.5cm long. He's a very sweet apisto, I really love the male macmasteri apistos all of mine have been gentle handsome giants. The ladies are a lot more mean!!

In the tetra photo you can see my two types of cardinals - the giant turquoise-y ones I got from a UKAPS user who was shutting down his tanks, and the small wild ones who are much more blue and still have some growing to do. You can see the colour difference in the background of the master Apisto photo too, in the two tones of blue blurs.


----------



## shangman

At first I thought this was a rubbish picture - given that I've managed to focus in on the algae and dirt on the glass, and you can see the scratches - but idk... that lil pencil on the left really captures a bit of the cheekiness of my marginatus. They won't stop photobombing !!!


----------



## shangman

A few more, got my boyfriend to adjust the camera settings a bit and away I go! The pencils are blurry in 95% of pics, but idk I think it looks kinda fabulous anway.


----------



## Hufsa

The itty bitty fishie committee is so cute, I wish they could stay that size forever 🥰


----------



## shangman

Hufsa said:


> The itty bitty fishie committee is so cute, I wish they could stay that size forever 🥰


That would be amazing tbh 😍 they give me flashbacks to raising my baby apistos and how tiny and charming they were. I want l watched one move a leaf a few days ago and it was AMAZING - apparently dicrossus spend a lot of time flipping leaves searching for tasty treats, so I've added some new chestnut and beech leaves in. 

It was SO fascinating raising those 38 baby apistos and their dynamics growing up together. I wish there was a small schooling cichlid that would stay like that forever! It's so much work to get them through the first stage but man it is worth it every few years I think.

When I one day get a bigger tank I'd like to keep a nice group of bolivian rams, they look like they could be quite similar and apparently they like to be in a group. 

Badis and Darios stay very small don't they? They are fish I would love to keep one day, they look v cute!! I think they don't like to be in groups though, another tiny angry lil fishy 😂


----------



## Conort2

shangman said:


> I wish there was a small schooling cichlid that would stay like that forever!


Biotoecus? Like a tiny geophagus which is supposedly very peaceful. Not 100 percent sure about the schooling though.


----------



## shangman

Conort2 said:


> Biotoecus? Like a tiny geophagus which is supposedly very peaceful. Not 100 percent sure about the schooling though.


Welp.... that's another beauty for THE LIST ! Never heard of them before, they are very sweet.

The schooling of the apistos was so beautiful. One morning I got up and went straight to look in the tank, and was very worried as I saw zero fish in it. Then suddenly one apisto swam from the back around the hardscape and to the front to stare at me, and all the rest of them followed in a long line unti they were all in the front watching me together. Just so intelligent and charming. They would go about in small groups like little gangs of teenagers it was fabulous.


----------



## shangman

Some of my buces are looking shocking, and not all plants are doing well so I've decided to start fiddling with co2 and ferts again.




Lowered the pressure from 50 psi to 35
Upped the co2 to 8-9 bubbles per second to get the drop checker lime green, fish seem fine.
Adjusted the flow so it goes out more and doesn't just hit the wood.

I've been using the instructions from my aquarium plant food for my ferts, alternating about 30ml a day of macro and micro, with added iron. So I guess will up this? 😂 Not sure on this yet, @Courtneybst had suggested a way to do it with all ferts combined in a super recipe so I will try that!

The tank is looking great but not all the plants are happy, and it's really annoying! I don't think it's just the flow of the wood, otherwise all my buces on the wood would look amazing and they don't. Lmk if you have any suggestions.


----------



## Wookii

shangman said:


> Some of my buces are looking shocking, and not all plants are doing well so I've decided to start fiddling with co2 and ferts again.
> 
> View attachment 182499​
> Lowered the pressure from 50 psi to 35
> Upped the co2 to 10 bubbles per second to get the drop checker lime green, fish seem fine.
> Adjusted the flow so it goes out more and doesn't just hit the wood.
> 
> I've been using the instructions from my aquarium plant food for my ferts, alternating about 30ml a day of macro and micro, with added iron. So I guess will up this? 😂 Not sure on this yet, @Courtneybst had suggested a way to do it with all ferts combined in a super recipe so I will try that!
> 
> The tank is looking great but not all the plants are happy, and it's really annoying! I don't think it's just the flow of the wood, otherwise all my buces on the wood would look amazing and they don't. Lmk if you have any suggestions.



Are you using any glut based products?


----------



## Courtneybst

I have @LondonDragon  to thank for that! Lets see how they go! Can't see a reason why they wouldn't do well.

The Buce need some TLC!


----------



## shangman

Wookii said:


> Are you using any glut based products?


Nope.

I asked on Instagram and several people have suggested that is a potassium deficiency, especially because my floating and emergent plants are doing great, they're sucking it all up and leaving none for the buces. 

Anyone got any suggestions on what the best dry salt is to add extra of for this? I have potassium nitrate and potassium phosphate, or happy to order something else.


----------



## plantnoobdude

shangman said:


> Anyone got any suggestions on what the best dry salt is to add extra of for this? I have potassium nitrate and potassium phosphate, or happy to order something else.


if you dont mind extra no3, kno3 is just fine. if not, then you can add some k2so4. ofcourse it could be something entirely different. but trouble shooting from macros is relatively easy. sometimes adding more po4 can reduce the amount of gsa. if all else fails and EI doesn't work, tropica is a very good fert and if you want to make your own similar lean fert see this thread Lean dosing pros and cons bit of a long thread, but worth it if you'd like to know a bit more about ferts.


----------



## Wookii

shangman said:


> Nope.
> 
> I asked on Instagram and several people have suggested that is a potassium deficiency, especially because my floating and emergent plants are doing great, they're sucking it all up and leaving none for the buces.
> 
> Anyone got any suggestions on what the best dry salt is to add extra of for this? I have potassium nitrate and potassium phosphate, or happy to order something else.



It was just a thought, as I had the exact same issue with Buce when I was dosing Glut daily:









						Holey Buce Batman! . . .
					

So, I recently broke down my scape ready for a reacape. I had lots of Buce in there, much of which was hidden from view due to overgrowth of other plants. Many of them had grown really well and are quite large - unfortunately though, many of the leaves have extensive holes in.  Can anyone offer...



					www.ukaps.org
				




I know everyone will point at potassium when you get holes in leaves, and it could well be, but using tap water (which may have a decent amount) and dosing EI, I’d be surprised if all the potassium was getting used up. That said APFUK dosing is a fair bit less than EI for potassium, so there is no harm adding more.

As @plantnoobdude says, you can buy some Potassium Sulphate if you just want to add potassium, or if you are farming off a load of floaters each week, then they will likely be sucking up most of your nitrates, so adding more Potassium Nitrate shouldn’t be a problem.


----------



## shangman

Wookii said:


> It was just a thought, as I had the exact same issue with Buce when I was dosing Glut daily:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Holey Buce Batman! . . .
> 
> 
> So, I recently broke down my scape ready for a reacape. I had lots of Buce in there, much of which was hidden from view due to overgrowth of other plants. Many of them had grown really well and are quite large - unfortunately though, many of the leaves have extensive holes in.  Can anyone offer...
> 
> 
> 
> www.ukaps.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know everyone will point at potassium when you get holes in leaves, and it could well be, but using tap water (which may have a decent amount) and dosing EI, I’d be surprised if all the potassium was getting used up. That said APFUK dosing is a fair bit less than EI for potassium, so there is no harm adding more.
> 
> As @plantnoobdude says, you can buy some Potassium Sulphate if you just want to add potassium, or if you are farming off a load of floaters each week, then they will likely be sucking up most of your nitrates, so adding more Potassium Nitrate shouldn’t be a problem.


To be fair I keep meaning to dose glut to try and kill my clado, but I can never be bothered to do it, I always think I'm gonna wander of and forget to turn the filter in again!

Interestingly some buces are ok, they are higher up in the tank. Idk what that means though, only my mini buce is growing the rest are either holey or doing nothing.

I'm gonna dose more potassium and see what happens!! We'll see if people are right or not, I hope they are. One person asked if I had a lot of floaters as they suck a lot of it up, and of course I have loads and lots of emergents which are all growing amazingly well so I think it is a possibility. The top half of the tank grows much better than the bottom half tbh. I put my drop checker at the bottom today though and it was still nice and green. 

I'm going to add potassium nitrate this week as I have it, and order more potassium sulphate to use in general. I haven't been posting much attention to my ferts tbh and now am thinking that's something that really needs more focus!! 



plantnoobdude said:


> if you dont mind extra no3, kno3 is just fine. if not, then you can add some k2so4. ofcourse it could be something entirely different. but trouble shooting from macros is relatively easy. sometimes adding more po4 can reduce the amount of gsa. if all else fails and EI doesn't work, tropica is a very good fert and if you want to make your own similar lean fert see this thread Lean dosing pros and cons bit of a long thread, but worth it if you'd like to know a bit more about ferts.


I think I'll add more potassium nitrate just this week and order the sulphate version tomoz to use going forward. I have been getting a bit more green spot algae recently!! I wonder if it's part of it.  Tbh would prefer to make my own, I think it will just be cheaper, especially as I'm now realising I need to dose a lot. I don't really care about dosing lean as I have no stems to go red.


----------



## plantnoobdude

shangman said:


> I have loads and lots of emergents which are all growing amazingly well so I think it is a possibility.


yeah, that's probably it.


shangman said:


> I don't really care about dosing lean as I have no stems to go red.


lean has loads of benefits, for fish plants and you. though it does take some time to get right. less toxic micro nutrients for fish and less demand on co2 which is good for you and your fish. less water changes, many plants do better with less stunting. I have recently started implementing a "lean" dosing regime and see lots of benefit not just for red plants, though it may not be 100% necessarry as your tank seems fern/ easy plant dominated. but of course, tinkering with everything is part of the fun!


shangman said:


> I think it will just be cheaper,


definitely, it's just a bit more complicated, if you want to clone a fert like seachem or tropica. because they use multipl sources of nutrients and different chelators for micros.

Tank looks really nice btw! a more natural tank seems really nice, and im considering one.


----------



## shangman

plantnoobdude said:


> yeah, that's probably it.
> 
> lean has loads of benefits, for fish plants and you. though it does take some time to get right. less toxic micro nutrients for fish and less demand on co2 which is good for you and your fish. less water changes, many plants do better with less stunting. I have recently started implementing a "lean" dosing regime and see lots of benefit not just for red plants, though it may not be 100% necessarry as your tank seems fern/ easy plant dominated. but of course, tinkering with everything is part of the fun!
> 
> definitely, it's just a bit more complicated, if you want to clone a fert like seachem or tropica. because they use multipl sources of nutrients and different chelators for micros.
> 
> Tank looks really nice btw! a more natural tank seems really nice, and im considering one.


Ahh ok, you've peaked my interest!! How did you work out your lean dosing regime? I am always happy to do things to make my fish happier  It seems like more is the time to focus on ferts and learn how to get it right. I do have easy plants, but not all of them are thriving and I really want a luscious tank!! 

Thank you  I really love having a naturalistic tank, its so serene and the fish are really thriving.


----------



## plantnoobdude

shangman said:


> Ahh ok, you've peaked my interest!! How did you work out your lean dosing regime? I am always happy to do things to make my fish happier  It seems like more is the time to focus on ferts and learn how to get it right. I do have easy plants, but not all of them are thriving and I really want a luscious tank!!


I am basing my nutrients on mostly marschner ratio
 I don't remember 100% but do you use hard tap for the tank? if so it might be a bit more difficult to impliment and i won't be of much help because i have very softwater. @ Happi might be able to advise though.
 I also add all N from Urea, though i wouldn't do so in your tank, because of (if i remember correctly, the hard tapwater.) some other people are experimenting with such dosing in the thread I shared above. 
I am dosing,
3ppmN (13ppm No3)
0.39ppm P (1.2ppm Po4)
2ppm K 
and currently experimenting with micros, current level is 0.05ppm Fe dtpa as proxy per week.

EI levels are 30ppm NO3, 20ppm K, 3ppm Po3 and 0.5ppm Fe.

like i said before the method is not for everyone, but if you love tinkering to no end, then i'd suggest it!
the first thing i'd suggest is reading through the lean dosing pros and cons thread!


----------



## shangman

I've been very naughty and ordered more plants from Wildwoods World of Water, after they posted a fabulous list of new plants that I haven't seen around since before Brexit or ever here! So here's hoping that extra potassium is working 😂

I bought some _Mi__crosorum sunrise_, a fabulous spiky Java fern, _Eriocaulon Vietnam_, an easy eriocaulon which reminds me of tiny bromeliads that I've wanted for ages, _Homalomena sp. Sedaka South _a nice unusual aroid and _Piptospatha ridleyi_ another nice unusual aroid with spots on. The latter 2 come in invitro pots so are just a fun experiment, you know I can't resist an interesting aroid!! There were a few other plants on the list I'd like but were already gone by the time I asked, but apparently they'll be getting more in soon and this is a new regular supplier. It really pissed me off that I joined the hobby just as Brexit hit and cut off all these amazing plants and other things for us to use so glad businesses are finding new suppliers! 

<You can see the list on their first post here>. This isn't a promo or anything, just love sharing where I've found fabulous unusual plants with you guys since I know you love it too. There's some great plants like _rotala blood red _on the list that I haven't seen since 2020. You can call them to order, best to ask for Dan.


----------



## shangman

plantnoobdude said:


> I am basing my nutrients on mostly marschner ratio
> I don't remember 100% but do you use hard tap for the tank? if so it might be a bit more difficult to impliment and i won't be of much help because i have very softwater. @ Happi might be able to advise though.
> I also add all N from Urea, though i wouldn't do so in your tank, because of (if i remember correctly, the hard tapwater.) some other people are experimenting with such dosing in the thread I shared above.
> I am dosing,
> 3ppmN (13ppm No3)
> 0.39ppm P (1.2ppm Po4)
> 2ppm K
> and currently experimenting with micros, current level is 0.05ppm Fe dtpa as proxy per week.
> 
> EI levels are 30ppm NO3, 20ppm K, 3ppm Po3 and 0.5ppm Fe.
> 
> like i said before the method is not for everyone, but if you love tinkering to no end, then i'd suggest it!
> the first thing i'd suggest is reading through the lean dosing pros and cons thread!


I use 50/50 tap/rainwater, so I'm not sure how that affects things. To be honest I think your awareness of ferts is a bit above my level right now, wow! I'm thinking in going to try this recipe @Courtneybst shared with me that's quite generous, and then once my growth is actually good across the board work out how to reduce it down like you do. I definitely think it's the way to go in the future though, I really like the idea of having cleaner water for the fish, and I do love tinkering! Will read through that thread and see if I can understand it all a bit better, as a dyslexic person it can be a bit 😱


----------



## Wookii

Oooo


shangman said:


> I've been very naughty and ordered more plants from Wildwoods World of Water, after they posted a fabulous list of new plants that I haven't seen around since before Brexit or ever here! So here's hoping that extra potassium is working 😂
> 
> I bought some _Mi__crosorum sunrise_, a fabulous spiky Java fern, _Eriocaulon Vietnam_, an easy eriocaulon which reminds me of tiny bromeliads that I've wanted for ages, _Homalomena sp. Sedaka South _a nice unusual aroid and _Piptospatha ridleyi_ another nice unusual aroid with spots on. The latter 2 come in invitro pots so are just a fun experiment, you know I can't resist an interesting aroid!! There were a few other plants on the list I'd like but we're already gone by the time I asked, but apparently they'll be getting more in soon and this is a new regular supplier. It really pissed me off that I joined the hobby just as Brexit hit and cut off all these amazing plants and other things for us to use so glad businesses are finding new suppliers!
> 
> <You can see the list on their first post here>. This isn't a promo or anything, just love sharing where I've found fabulous unusual plants with you guys since I know you love it too. There's some great plants like _rotala blood red _on the list that I haven't seen since 2020. You can call them to order, best to ask for Dan.



Ooooo . . . some nice rarities on that list!! You are very lucky having that store so close to home, but seriously Rosie, you surely can’t have any more room in that tank? 😂


----------



## Hufsa

Oh my goodness that plant list makes me want to cry 😭😍 If you run out of room you could send some if those beauties over to me instead.. 😘


----------



## shangman

Wookii said:


> Oooo
> 
> 
> Ooooo . . . some nice rarities on that list!! You are very lucky having that store so close to home, but seriously Rosie, you surely can’t have any more room in that tank? 😂


A gardener knows there's always a bit of space for new plants! 😂 I've suddenly turned into my parents it's very disconcerting, but when a lovely plant is on offer for a reasonable price what are you meant to do, not buy it????

This time I didn't visit, I saw on Instagram they were posting the list on facebook, so I messaged them on Instagram to reserve my plants and then called to pay. All rather round about, but it feels quite exciting and exclusive when you can't just "add to cart", especially when some plants are already gone within 30 mins of the list being posted!!!



Hufsa said:


> Oh my goodness that plant list makes me want to cry 😭😍 If you run out of room you could send some if those beauties over to me instead.. 😘


I saw it and was like 😱😱😱!! But your LFS seems to have some amazing buces and crypts! What would you get on the list if you could?


----------



## plantnoobdude

Headed over to wildwoods as soon as I heard of the sale (earlier today). And when I went over there they didn't have much left LOL. some crypts pontederifolia, homalomena, anubias pinto, ammania towuti and crypt nurrii is what i remember.  ended up going home with a small bit of buce. haha. It is an awesome shop, but I must say, if you really are after rare plants, it is better to buy from other hobbyists. the plants are much healthier, you get a lot more, and you can get lots of stuff that is really rarely available commercially.


----------



## shangman

plantnoobdude said:


> Headed over to wildwoods as soon as I heard of the sale (earlier today). And when I went over there they didn't have much left LOL. some crypts pontederifolia, homalomena, anubias pinto, ammania towuti and crypt nurrii is what i remember.  ended up going home with a small bit of buce. haha. It is an awesome shop, but I must say, if you really are after rare plants, it is better to buy from other hobbyists. the plants are much healthier, you get a lot more, and you can get lots of stuff that is really rarely available commercially.


Oh no! 😭 I reserved my plants within 30 mins of them posting the list and already missed out on some things. From what they said on the phone this is a new supplier so they just bought a few of each to see what the quality was like. I'm sure they'll be ordering more soon with this reception! 

I do buy rare plants from fellow hobbyists on UKAPS too, but tbh I just haven't seen many unusual plants for sale since Brexit, compared to say what is available on on Aquasabi. It is my aim to get my tank better balanced so all my unusual plants grow well and I can help by distributing them too  Do you know other places with fellow hobbyists that sell rare plants?


----------



## plantnoobdude

shangman said:


> Oh no! 😭 I reserved my plants within 30 mins of them posting the list and already missed out on some things. From what they said on the phone this is a new supplier so they just bought a few of each to see what the quality was like. I'm sure they'll be ordering more soon with this reception!
> 
> I do buy rare plants from fellow hobbyists on UKAPS too, but tbh I just haven't seen many unusual plants for sale since Brexit, compared to say what is available on on Aquasabi. It is my aim to get my tank better balanced so all my unusual plants grow well and I can help by distributing them too  Do you know other places with fellow hobbyists that sell rare plants?


you usually find people with nice plants and ask them to sell a couple stems lol. macek.g and roland both on ukaps have some really unusual stuff.


----------



## plantnoobdude

also, k2aqua on ebay have some nice rarities, tonina species, ludwigia white, ludwigia cuba, rotala red cross, homalomena, piptospatha, eriocaulon species and many other rarities. also a new seller on ebay called buce_uk. though i would suggest the above hobbyists anyday over any company/retailer selling plants though.


----------



## Wookii

shangman said:


> Do you know other places with fellow hobbyists that sell rare plants?



Not necessarily that many ‘rare’ plants available, but 'Aquarium Plant & Moss Sales UK' group on BAND has a steady trickle of plants available:









						'Aquarium Plant & Moss Sales UK' group invitation on BAND
					

UK sales group for plants, mosses and natural aquarium goods like alder cones, capatta leaves etc for the aquarium floor. Both sales and aquatic plant advice posts welcome.




					band.us
				




As you say though, I miss having access to Aquasabi!


----------



## shangman

plantnoobdude said:


> you usually find people with nice plants and ask them to sell a couple stems lol. macek.g and roland both on ukaps have some really unusual stuff.





plantnoobdude said:


> also, k2aqua on ebay have some nice rarities, tonina species, ludwigia white, ludwigia cuba, rotala red cross, homalomena, piptospatha, eriocaulon species and many other rarities. also a new seller on ebay called buce_uk. though i would suggest the above hobbyists anyday over any company/retailer selling plants though.



Ahh I have heard of these, I just kill all my stem plants so I've made myself blind to them so as to not tempt myself into buying plants that'll immediately wither away! 😂 One day I'll have a fabuluous 100% rainwater colourful stem tank and be hitting them up though!

Waiting for the potassium to definitely get better before any unusual buce makes an appearance, + I'm still unsure about the ethics of buces tbh. Didn't realise the piptospatha and homalomena though, that's great. To me k2aqua and buce_uk are actual retailers, they're importing and selling like a business, I have nothing against that I had a small business myself! When I went to World of Water I always chat to the guy there who orders in all the plants, he's a hobbyist too who just loves interesting plants like us, so to me they aren't a faceless company. Tbh in this hobby it seems like a lot of the companies and shops are just run by passionate hobbyists, I think that's why some of the shops are so nice.



Wookii said:


> Not necessarily that many ‘rare’ plants available, but 'Aquarium Plant & Moss Sales UK' group on BAND has a steady trickle of plants available:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'Aquarium Plant & Moss Sales UK' group invitation on BAND
> 
> 
> UK sales group for plants, mosses and natural aquarium goods like alder cones, capatta leaves etc for the aquarium floor. Both sales and aquatic plant advice posts welcome.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> band.us
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you say though, I miss having access to Aquasabi!


I think my friend found some nice unusual moss on there a while ago! Quite a lot of things to trawl through but it's always more satisfying to find something fabulous then, will remember to take the occasional look!


----------



## plantnoobdude

shangman said:


> k2aqua and buce_uk are actual retailers,


my wording was a bit unclear, yes k2aqua and buce uk, are retailers, and id recommend hobbyists anyday over retailer


----------



## tacy k

I went up to Wild Woods today to collect the plants I'd ordered on Friday. They look fantastic!  If WW appear to have run out of something you want, it's always worth asking as they have more plants both in the quarantine room and another storage room.   ( I will post pics of my tank one day but it looks a bit sad compared to most as it's scaped by clown loaches!)


----------



## shangman

tacy k said:


> I went up to Wild Woods today to collect the plants I'd ordered on Friday. They look fantastic!  If WW appear to have run out of something you want, it's always worth asking as they have more plants both in the quarantine room and another storage  room.   ( I will post pics of my tank one day but it looks a bit sad compared to most as it's scaped by clown loaches!)


Hurrah! What did you get?

I haven't had time to post them today, but I got my plants this morning and they are fantastic quality as usual. The _microsorum sunrise_ is a fabulous plant that I've put right in the middle and it just... Works. I realised as I was planting the new ones that all the plants I've bought from there really stand out for being unusual and beautiful, Dan really knows how to source and pick a good plant!! They all go together though somehow, I think all that time spent being dragged around gardens as a kid had finally paid off 😂 What I really love is that most of the plants I bought from them would thrive in lowtech as well as high-tech, and have all sorts of lovely colours and textures.

For example the three floaters I bought from there last time are growing well and all look unique - the soft turquoise pinnate _aeschynomene _with yellow flowers, the _ludwigia_ with its fat white advantageous bouy roots, the poppy with it's long stems and glossy oval leaves.

I've heard they're getting even more interesting plants that haven't been seen for a while in over the next few weeks (as well as more of the stuff they immediately ran out of this weekend), looking forward to see what else they can rustle up for me to squeeze in! 😂


----------



## KirstyF

I think your tank and Hermione’s magic beaded bag have a lot in common!  😂


----------



## shangman

KirstyF said:


> I think your tank and Hermione’s magic beaded bag have a lot in common!  😂


Damnit, you've blown my cover!


----------



## tacy k

@shangman 
I got a stunning Echinodorus with spots but I've forgotten what it's called. It's loach proof so far! And a Microsorum sunrise too - just beautiful. I also got Blyxa jap. Ludwigia mini red and a couple of other things which, if not chomped on or squashed, may grow enough to make me hopeful and then gradually fade away.  I need (want!) to get a dedicated plant tank, a sensible depth so light reaches the bottom, with well behaved fish so I can grow plants properly!


----------



## shangman

I still haven't had time to add most of my recent plant purchases, been a very busy week! Hoping I'll have a bit of time on Tuesday afternoon though, where I'll also be replacing my red lava stone with jade stone I picked up at Aquarium gardens last week. It wasn't very expensive since I just need small bits. The red lava stone I always intended to be covered in plants, but the plants I've tried refuse to cover it how I wanted so I'm replacing them with this jade stone, which is apparently inert and comes pre-algaed as it's so green. You can see it in the front of the FTS, I added a bit to see the true colour. Looking forward to giving the front of the tank a lil facelift with this and finally planting my new plants   The one plant I have added is the microsorum "sunrise" and it's soooo nice, I'm a big fan!


----------



## shangman

tacy k said:


> @shangman
> I got a stunning Echinodorus with spots but I've forgotten what it's called. It's loach proof so far! And a Microsorum sunrise too - just beautiful. I also got Blyxa jap. Ludwigia mini red and a couple of other things which, if not chomped on or squashed, may grow enough to make me hopeful and then gradually fade away.  I need (want!) to get a dedicated plant tank, a sensible depth so light reaches the bottom, with well behaved fish so I can grow plants properly!


Very good choices! They have some great echinodorus there, I've got my eye on their _echinodorus macrophyllus _after spotting it in one of @taistrietman's tanks last week. When I googled it wasn't that interesting but irl it looks fab. 

It's definitely worth getting another tank when all these lovely plants are available to fill it with!! No plecos allowed 😂


----------



## shangman

Welp, there's Ich in the tank. Just one or two dots on a few fish but it looks it to me. That's it for my stocking hubris, time to treat it and then catch some fish and give away. Not really sure where it came from, since I added the pencils a month ago, I would've thought it would appear sooner but there we are! Some friends have assured me that this is not too bad to treat, so I will start with the esha exit tomorrow.


----------



## Conort2

shangman said:


> Welp, there's Ich in the tank. Just one or two dots on a few fish but it looks it to me. That's it for my stocking hubris, time to treat it and then catch some fish and give away. Not really sure where it came from, since I added the pencils a month ago, I would've thought it would appear sooner but there we are! Some friends have assured me that this is not too bad to treat, so I will start with the esha exit tomorrow.


It’s not too bad if the fish are healthy and you keep on top of it. You hear of horror stories but normally it’s very treatable. Keep up gravel vacuuming and water changes as you undertake the treatment. I’d also bump up your temperature, helps speed up the lifecycle of the parasite.

Cheers


----------



## shangman

Conort2 said:


> It’s not too bad if the fish are healthy and you keep on top of it. You hear of horror stories but normally it’s very treatable. Keep up gravel vacuuming and water changes as you undertake the treatment. I’d also bump up your temperature, helps speed up the lifecycle of the parasite.
> 
> Cheers


I'm hoping catching it early will make it ok, I've never had it before so it's kinda scary and I feel bad for my fishies but will do what I can. I'm gonna do a big waterchange and gravel vac before and after, as well as increase the temp. What do you raise it to? The storm had acted in my favour for this and I have lots of rainwater luckily. 

Super bad timing, I've got an interview at a place I really want to work for tomorrow and now all I can think about is healing the fish 😱 at least that's got rid of some of the anxiety of that I guess!


----------



## Conort2

shangman said:


> What do you raise it to?


Could raise it to around 30 however I’m not sure how that will affect the plants you have. Hopefully someone with more experience with plants will chime in.


----------



## shangman

It's my birthday today, which marks one year of owning this tank and starting this journal! 😀

Today I was chatting on the phone for ages while looking at the tank, it's looking really nice ATM so will take some photos tomorrow. I've added in the jade stone and I love that, and I do think the new ferts regime is doing something, it feels like plants are slowly becoming bigger and more luscious.

Also I treated the tank for ich with Esha Exit and it seems to have worked! Very interesting, I thought it would be an awful task but it's been ok, hopefully it doesn't return.


----------



## plantnoobdude

shangman said:


> I do think the new ferts regime is doing something, it feels like plants are slowly becoming bigger and more luscious.


I'm curious! any more details on ppm numbers?


----------



## shangman

plantnoobdude said:


> I'm curious! any more details on ppm numbers?


I'm gonna be honest I have no idea lmao, it's a recipe from @LondonDragon whose tank is fabulously luscious, and which contains a lot of potassium which my plants were apparently deficient in so I thought sounds like a good idea to try! It's only been 2 weeks though so I'm only seeing it in the fastest growing plants, but some fast growing plants leaves have suddenly gone massive, in trimming like mad.


----------



## Hufsa

shangman said:


> It's my birthday today, which marks one year of owning this tank and starting this journal! 😀


Happy birthday! 🥳🎉


----------



## plantnoobdude

Hufsa said:


> Happy birthday! 🥳🎉


completely missed that part lol. 
Happy Birthday!


----------



## Hufsa

plantnoobdude said:


> completely missed that part


Love it 
I imagined you were like "yes birthday ok but what are your PPM's Rosie??"


----------



## LondonDragon

shangman said:


> it's a recipe from @LondonDragon whose tank is fabulously luscious


Glad that is working for you also  I use K2SO4 to bump up the K without increasing the NO3!! I find high levels of NO3 are no good for ferns!
congrats on the anniversary and birthday, all the best


----------



## plantnoobdude

LondonDragon said:


> Glad that is working for you also  I use K2SO4 to bump up the K without increasing the NO3!! I find high levels of NO3 are no good for ferns!
> congrats on the anniversary and birthday, all the best


 how much? Im dosing 2ppm k weekly in my high tech and haven't found any issues with it.


----------



## LondonDragon

plantnoobdude said:


> how much? Im dosing 2ppm k weekly in my high tech and haven't found any issues with it.


Have a look here:  Aquascaper 900 - Comeback Lockdown Tank :)


----------



## KirstyF

Late Happy Birthday 🎂 🥳 
Glad to see ur fishies are doing better too and looking forward to piccies of ‘lush tank’ 😊


----------



## shangman

Big thank you for all the birthday wishes 🥰🥰🥰

Sorry not to respond to people much this week, one of my cats - Rama - has been ill for a week and the day after my birthday we found out we need to put him down very soon so all very grim over here. Can't seem to do hardly anything the past few days, our cats are so lovely and are so much part of the family it is so sad to have to let them go. I did manage some mindless duckweed removal from one of my tanks today which was overrun, I quite like some of the obsessive mindless tasks I do while aquascaping. they are almost meditative. Life seems endlessly bloody dramatic and exhausting and I am so glad to have my little ponds of calm to help counter that (except when they're stressing me out lmao)

Here are a few photos of Rama that my boyfriend took a few years ago when he was the regal king of the neighbourhood and none of the other cats could f*ck with him, but also he loves cuddles.




 

​Aquarium pics tomorrow, I took and edited quite a few tonight. The new rocks work so much better.


----------



## shangman

GREEEEENNNN - from when I was dosing Esha Exit to get rid of the Ich. So far it seems to have worked and not come back 





FTS featuring my boyfriend's screen annoyingly lol. Plus half these pics are blurry af but oh well you'll get the picture. The tank looks better irl but I'm not sure how to capture it properly rn.

I think you can see how the new rocks really fit in with the scape, the colours are much nicer and in general it's a better habitat for the fish. I've stacked them on top of eachother purposefully creating gaps and caves for the fish to enjoy. At first I tried putting plants in all the gaps, but I realised it looked better without them. I love that they look pre-aged with the green crystal, at some point I will buy a bit more and add it more to the back, but this small amount works well for now.

















Because of moving the rocks around I realised I had extra (somewhat dodgy looking) buce to place, so I decided to do up the middle part of the wood too. This area has been annoying for me as some of the plants I glued here refused to be glued and float annoyingly, and almost everything has a bit of clado algae growing in it. So at the same time I took all the plants aready there out and meticulously removed all the clado. Once all the plants were prepared, I got out some riverwood shavings I had (a few weeks ago I wanted to reshape some wood and used a chisel to whittel it down, quite wide but thin slices came off and I realised these little bits would be useful), and used thread to wrap all my buce, cameroon moss and other bits to the shavings. Then I used glue to attach the bottom of the wood shavings to the main wood, and this worked really well! The wood shavings are invisible once they've been darkened by the water, and they provide a much better surface for the glue to attach to.

I am very lucky in that there is one buce that has been growing well for me - this tiny mini buce I got last year, which has been doing great. This area looks soooo much better now and much more like how I originally envisioned it, and I'm glad to see a lot less clado algae. I'll be great when it grows in more in the new few months hopefully. It does look better irl but is weirdly hard to photograph.

At the same time I realised that at the top right of the wood (see second pic), under the hydrocotyle that has dominated was loads of fully brown dead fissidens, so I also pulled all of that out. It was a casuality of my determination to kill the clado. I think in a few months once I've fully eradicated the clado then I'll replace the fissidens. Very lucky that the cameroon moss survived and is thriving though! I'm really happy that the trident fern and cameroon moss here is doing well now, because for a few months it was all dying and covered in BBA and looked terrible, happy to see it really recovering.


----------



## Hufsa

Ah.. 😍 
Even when you write about issues, I see the most gorgeous tank 🥰

Im sorry to hear about your cat, its always heartbreaking to let them go 💔 I bet he had a really great time together with you guys though


----------



## shangman

Hufsa said:


> Ah.. 😍
> Even when you write about issues, I see the most gorgeous tank 🥰
> 
> Im sorry to hear about your cat, its always heartbreaking to let them go 💔 I bet he had a really great time together with you guys though


Aw thank you Hufsa! 🥰 It is becoming a very nice tank now, it's finally starting to look like what I imagined in my head. Still can fit in some more plants now in the "problem" areas hooray (getting 2 lovely echinodorus on next week, 1 cordifolius red which I have one already and it's thriving so will replace the disappointing echinodorus rose & red diamond in the other back corner, and an echinodorus macrophyllus also for back replacing a waterlily which is growing well but I can't appreciate as it keeps trying to grow the surface behind the wood). 

And the problems are all not so bad any more, "just more opportunities for me to learn" is what I tell myself! I am hoping that this new ferts mix will help all the buces grow well now, and eventually for the lusciousness where everything grows together thickly.

It is very horrible letting Rama go, but you are right he has had a very good life! We got him as a kitten when I was 14, he's my first cat that I had from tiny baby to old man cat, and we spoilt him the whole time, I suppose it's knowing him that long that makes it so hard. Right now he is huffing up catnip, he is having a nice final few days.


----------



## hypnogogia

shangman said:


> Here are a few photos of Rama


He's a handsome boy, and chunky too!  N o wonder the other neighbourhood toms wouldn't mess with him!  Very hard to let our cuddly cats go, they're such wonderful and characterful animals.


----------



## KirstyF

So sorry to hear about your puss. I’ve lost two that got to 18yrs so feeling your pain. It’s so hard when they go 🙁 but wouldn’t be without all the joy they add to our lives whilst they are with us, and he sure is a lovely looking lad. 🥰

The tank is looking wonderful, a real little world of discovery and those new rocks are just perfect. 👍


----------



## Karmicnull

More sympathy from this direction.  We have a brother and sister, both in their mid teens.  He used to be boss of the street, but has reined in his ambition somewhat and now focuses on being boss of the kitchen!  She has become diabetic and has to be injected twice daily.  I reckon we're only a couple of years behind you.


----------



## NatalieHurrell

Belated happy Birthday and sending hugs to you regarding the cat.  Tank is looking amazing!


----------



## shangman

Thank you all for the well wishes and sorry I haven't been around much, just felt a complete drain of energy after we put Rama down last Saturday. He was a real king of cats and we all miss him so much, our pets really are part of our families, my whole family is in a depression together at it. On Sunday I did a really fun thing though which was a good distraction, I went to Scaped Nature with @Courtneybst and @Siddy and we scaped a tank together. It was really interesting to do it together, I would love to do more tanks like this since I can't fit more tanks in the house to do it for myself!! There are lots of more photos on the guy's Instagrams too  Honestly too drained to share pics of things atm tbh.



On the downside, I am suspicious that there is something nefarious going on in the tank, like some fish Tb or something. I've had to put down several pencilfish and cardinal tetras (adult ones) over the past few weeks, each with different symptoms. They are big adult fish, but it is still hmmmmmm. I also think that my populations of tetra and pygmy cories have gone down a lot, although it's hard to tell exactly as the tank is lush enough for them to hide easily. Since I have a huge pile of leaves in the back I suspect that fish are hiding in there when sick and dying so I don't see it. And now 3 of the dicrossus have something that looks a little like hole in the head. Yesterday I set up a quarantine tank for the dicrossus, but found one dead this morning anyway. I'm feeling.... very suspicious. Fish are otherwise active and feeding and even breeding, but it definitely seems odd. Apistos seem in good health so far, so do the otos.
3 Pencilfish with different symptoms: one extremely bloated and then dropsy, one with a "graze" of white/pale discolouration (not at 3D wound) on it's side for a few days found dying upside down on the soil, one that was really weirdly skinny and a bit bent that I'd never noticed before until I saw it suffering and put it down.
2 Cardinal symptoms: slightly bent, white white grazes and staying at the top of the water or in one spot all day breathing heavy.

So far I've done an extra big waterchange, cleaned the filters and pipes (which is good I think I have more surface disruption for oxygen), lowered the CO2. Today will get some Esha 2000 and try that too. TBH not sure what to do other than wait and see if everything drops dead or not. I guess at the weekend will do another waterchange and take out all the leaves and mulm out of the back and vac it all heavily in case that helps. IDK I already feel drained and this is quite upsetting but I haven't recovered the emotional energy to worry about it, just trying to be objective and do what I can. This tank and me are so dramatic ffs there's always something going on.

Incidentally in my 45L, I had 12 chili rasboras added in Autumn and now I have about 5, they seemed to last a few months all together and then over the past 2 months disappear quite quickly. My betta seems totally fine though (he is in the only other fish in that tank).  Originally in the 45L tank I had 15 pygmy cories, and after a few months there was only 6, I'm not sure if it's a comment on me and my care of the fish or if this is normal or a disease. The pygmies in my big tank are much more outgoing than the ones in the 45L were though. I always do my waterchanges, feed a variety of good food including live, etc but idk. In the big tank I am guilty of overstocking due to the kuhli loaches, maybe it is all because of that, but with the numbers of fish I have now I'm pretty sure it's not overstocked at all any more, I think tetras & pygmies are down by at least 1/3. I should have 16 kuhlis, but I've only seen a max of 4 in the middle of the night, honestly not sure how many I have and I wouldn't be surprised that when I one day rescape to find all of them thriving in the lava stone caves I made for them. 

I read online with fish tb basically you're f***ed and have to let the fish die, and 100% rescape chucking everything in the tank which is the grimmest thing I've ever heard, but I'm heavily rambling now so will stop. Or maybe it is my rainwater???? No idea tbh.


----------



## Wookii

Sorry to hear you of your woes Rosie. 

If you suspect Fish TB, it might be worth a call to your local Vets, to see if you can take a recently deceased fish to them for a firm diagnosis - though they may not be able to do anything on such small fish. Hopefully its not fish TB, but be careful yourself just in case, as I believe fish TB is transmittable to humans.


----------



## heliophyte

I wish you good luck. It's terrible watching all your fish die one by one.


----------



## shangman

Wookii said:


> Sorry to hear you of your woes Rosie.
> 
> If you suspect Fish TB, it might be worth a call to your local Vets, to see if you can take a recently deceased fish to them for a firm diagnosis - though they may not be able to do anything on such small fish. Hopefully its not fish TB, but be careful yourself just in case, as I believe fish TB is transmittable to humans.


Luckily I'm very scrupulous about washing my hands immediately with the tank and never putting hands in with any cuts/scratches, will be even more so from now on and keep hand sanitiser right by it  Will look into finding a vet too, maybe a good idea. I wonder how expensive something like that is to check. Going to thoroughly sanitise all my equipment and make sure I have sets for different tanks now too, luckily in my nano with ricefish they seem totally fine.

It's not definitely the TB, but from reading the description of how healthy fish disappear and have all sorts of symptoms it looks like a possibility. IDK I won't lose hope yet but it is rather grim. My feeling is that rn the sensitive fish are being picked off. Maybe once they are gone then I will have some hardy fish who will live for a while and do well? Who knows, I guess we'll find out! 



heliophyte said:


> I wish you good luck. It's terrible watching all your fish die one by one.


Thank you, fingers crossed I'm wrong and things will settle down. I am much less sensitive to a fish dying occasionally now, but all of them is quite a different thing.


----------



## shangman

Does anyone here have experience with fish TB? Looking online I feel that the symptoms do match. Also looking online it looks like if it is it's pretty catastrophic and the tank can't be treated and everything has to be destroyed 😱 

I emailed a fish vet so will investigate that too.


----------



## KirstyF

So sorry Rosie. Ur having a tough time of it, it seems. ☹️

Seeing if you can get a firm diagnosis from the vet seems like a good plan, if it’s not painfully expensive, at least that way you’ll know what you’re dealing with. 

I do so hope it works out for you.🤞


----------



## Hufsa

I think so too, hearing what the vet has to say first. Hopefully its not TB, the symptoms are so broad so they often seem to fit, but maybe that means there can also be other reasons for it. I would try pretty much everything else first if it was my tank, before taking the whole thing down. Sorry I cant be of any more help, im lousy with this stuff myself as you know. Sometimes it is enough to make you want to swear off fish and only keep plants.

Sending a big viking hug 💓💓


----------



## shangman

KirstyF said:


> So sorry Rosie. Ur having a tough time of it, it seems. ☹️
> 
> Seeing if you can get a firm diagnosis from the vet seems like a good plan, if it’s not painfully expensive, at least that way you’ll know what you’re dealing with.
> 
> I do so hope it works out for you.🤞


Thank you ♥️ When it rains, it pours!!



Hufsa said:


> I think so too, hearing what the vet has to say first. Hopefully its not TB, the symptoms are so broad so they often seem to fit, but maybe that means there can also be other reasons for it. I would try pretty much everything else first if it was my tank, before taking the whole thing down. Sorry I cant be of any more help, im lousy with this stuff myself as you know. Sometimes it is enough to make you want to swear off fish and only keep plants.
> 
> Sending a big viking hug 💓💓


♥️♥️♥️ I was panicking about that earlier tbh, the idea of destroying it all is like .... Unbelievably awful 😭 

Like I started my aquarium hobby to escape the dreadfulness of the pandemic and "live in" a nicer world... And now my beautiful little Eden has it's own epidemic!!! 🙃 I love the tank and often it helps with the anxiety but times like these make it wayyyyy worse instead. My facade of control is slipping again and I don't like it!

BUT they're not all dead yet. My friend sent me this, which had given me some hope - <an article about fish TB written by Diana Walstad!>. She's says what worked for her is a UV light filter, so I think I will try this! Seems like a good thing to try, maybe some of my fish will recover and future fish won't be effected from what she says about it. It also seems really common from the statistics.


----------



## shangman

Another useful post about fish TB and UV sterilisers. UV Sterilizers/Fish Diseases

So will try this asap and record it all for you. I did take some pictures of some of the other fish before they died which I will post later this week as a record too. I think it's good to show the bad times and my treatments in case any of them work!


----------



## MirandaB

So sorry to hear about your beautiful cat 😢
Mine will be 21 soon,doing very well for her age but I know that day will come and I dread it.

As others have said see if you can get a definitive diagnosis but if not then I would treat the tank as if it is that and carry on pretty much as you have been in regards to your own safety.
Regarding the fish I think keeping stress to a minimum,good food,regular water changes and where possible euthanising any as soon as they show symptoms is the best thing.
It's important not to let fish die in the tank and then be picked at by the other inhabitants.
Edit...forgot to say make sure each of your tanks has separate maintenance equipment if you don't already to minimise cross contamination.


----------



## shangman

MirandaB said:


> So sorry to hear about your beautiful cat 😢
> Mine will be 21 soon,doing very well for her age but I know that day will come and I dread it.
> 
> As others have said see if you can get a definitive diagnosis but if not then I would treat the tank as if it is that and carry on pretty much as you have been in regards to your own safety.
> Regarding the fish I think keeping stress to a minimum,good food,regular water changes and where possible euthanising any as soon as they show symptoms is the best thing.
> It's important not to let fish die in the tank and then be picked at by the other inhabitants.
> Edit...forgot to say make sure each of your tanks has separate maintenance equipment if you don't already to minimise cross contamination.


21! That's very impressive. My boyfriend's childhood cat lived until 23 amazingly. I wish you many more good years <3

Yeah I think for now it's safer to assume they have it and take the precautions, going to buy myself some extremely long pond gloves! The infection people can get looks grim af.

Your plan is the same thoughts as mine, I've got new equipment for separation today, and checked at the allotment - just in time the live food stocks are booming which is great. Sort of grim to euthanise any fish that look even slightly dodgy but I think it's for the best long term, they will suffer more without it.

My other plan is to buy a proper UV steriliser like a "TMC v2 Vecton UV Steriliser" which from what I can tell is a powerful one, and using a small one from a friend just in case it helps until that arrives. Today when feeding the fish it does occur to me that a lot of fish are looking healthy still and I hope I can save them with this, to help keep the viral load down. At the very worst it will save my plants if all the fish are doomed. 

I have been looking at other possibilities online like Hexamita and endo parasites that some friends suggested but the micobacterium fit better. We'll see if the vet gets back to me!


----------



## shangman

The one issue in coming up with using the UV steriliser is that it may make my iron precipitate out of the water. I'm thinking of putting it on a timer so it's off for 3-4 hours after fertilising in the morning, any thoughts on off that is a good/bad idea? I do have DTPA iron if that helps.


----------



## shangman

Ok doing a post recording the various deaths of fish and what it looked like over the past 2 weeks. This also started about a month after I bought the pencils & dicrossus. I don't have photos of all the fish, and looking back I haven't euthanised the fish all immediately when I saw a problem, I have tried to wait a few days to see if it improves but tbh it never does (except for ich). Very grim tbh.

Death 1 18/02/2022: this pencilfish blew up like a balloon for a few days (when I first saw it it was smaller and I assumed a female with eggs), who I took out to see if it responded to salts and then realised was pineconed and had dropsy. This was a good week before everything else started, I didn't suspect anything at that point.





Death 2 & 3 (not sure which date this was): I didn't photograph the second one, but I saw one of my big older tetra with a white "graze" on it, and thought hmmmm, columnaris? 2 days later I saw it in the back, the graze was worse (more 3D/fuzzy) and it wasn't swimming around so I caught it.  I got the 10 tetra about 10 months ago, one has had really short nipped fins that never grew back the whole time, and I noticed this one also had a few dodgy white scales so even though it was still swimming around, it looked vulnerable to me and I euthanised them both. I thought at this point that these tetra were probably just getting old and that was the problem.




At this point the tank got ich which I treated with Esha Exit. I didn't have any deaths from the ich and it went away quickly. Only tetra got the ich on the body, to rest just on fins before going away.

And then I noticed a dicrossus had a few tiny pits in the head, and thought... uh oh.



Death 4 & 5: These fish were hanging at the top of the tank together - an anorexic pencilfish that was bent, and a bent fat old tetra with another white graze. I didn't take a pic, just netted them out and euthanised. This was last week, and about when I made the post about how I am suspicious and suspect the fish tb/mycobacteria. Sadly didn't take a pic.

Deaths 6. 7, & 8 12/03/2022: I noticed 3 dicrossus now had these pits and they were getting worse, so I took them out and put then in a quarantine tank. 2 died by the next day, and the third I euthanised as the pits looked bad and I realised they coudn't go back in the main tank like that. This was last week, can't remember the exact date. This is the worst one, it's hard to tell but the head at the top looks like it's eaten away. Honestly this was the ahrdest one, they are such lovely fish.

The morning of this day I woke up to find a pencilfish dying upsidedown on the floor of the tnak, to took it out and euthanised it. This pencilfish had a similar graze on it to the first tetra pictured for 2 days before, but had been acting fine.



​
Death 9 13/03/2022: I had noticed a few days before a pygmy cory with its fins eaten away, and knew I should kill it but didn't have the heart yet. But I knew I really should be euthanising them when I see them and just did it. When I caught it I realised it had ich, I didn't take a pic though it was at night right before I went to bed when I saw it. This is the only pygmy cory I've seen with an illness so far, though I suspect a few more have died since I added them. Although none of the other fish are showing it, this little pygmy cory seemed to have ich so I treated the tank again. This seems to be a telltale sign of the near end of a dodgy fish, the ich comes back on them only.

Today - Deaths 10 & 11 16/03/2022: Another anorexic pencilfish who I had noticed for 2 days and hasn't improved, along with a pencilfish who I hadn't noticed with problems before but today had a really gross injury - the gill on one side was exposed like it's face had been eaten away with scales hanging off (hard to tell in the pic how bad it was).  I think maybe before this pencilfish had a paler head for a few days before, but that's it. The pencilfish seem the most prone to this illness so far, I've euthanised 5 of the group of 15. I have also noticed at times some pencilfish have stringy poop, maybe 2-3 times but it goes away after a few hours, I have euthanised those fish, though maybe I should on reflection.







Another option is that my tank has columnaris (the dodgy looking tetra photographed above looked like this) and hexamita parasites (which causes hole in the head in cichlids), which could be a possibility, but with the breadth of symptoms across many types of fish I think the TB is most likely.

Here is a list of symptoms of fish tb/Mycobacterium from <this useful video> & <this link>, I have bolded the symptoms I've seen with my fish in the tank.
*Emaciation
Not eating
Reduced acitivity levels*
Loss of buoancy/seem heavy on the floor of the tank
*Dropsy
Bent spines/deformities*
Lack of colouring
Redness on the skin
*Skin lesions*
White bulging areas under the skin
*Pock marks 
Loss of scales
Fin erosion*
Popeye
*White faeces*
Areas like mouth rotting away
Mouth ulcers (can look like tumours, usually on bigger fish)
Redness around vent
Swimming haphazardly/spinning

So far I've been feeding the fish well with live food, continuing my 50% weekly waterchanges with an extra 30% one mid-week, a big gravel vac, filter & pipe cleanings. I've also bought a massive UV steriliser - the TMC vecton 600 which I will install tomorrow, and I hope will save some of the fish, or at the very least will save me from catching it getting a nasty rash and save the plants/tank. TBH After being quoted I don't think I can really afford the vet right now on top of the steriliser (which at least will treat things a bit), so will have to wait a while to save up for that.


----------



## shangman

Yesterday I installed the UV steriliser, which is hooked up to the filter between the outlet of the filter and the outlet lily pipe. My hope is that this will mean that the disease won't spread further (in case any fish in the tank aren't infected or have so far been able to fight off the infection and this will help them), and it will stop any future fish that go in the tank from catching the disease, and stop me from catching it too! I am very very far off from buying new fish of course, but it gives some hope for the future that the whole tank won't have to be scrapped, I can just about handle the fish, but everything? I have to try a solution and see. If you haven't read the earlier posts, I am using a UV steriliser as recommended by Diana Walstad whose rainbowfish tank got Fish TB, and she managed to keep the tank running and many of her fish were fine using the UV for several months, with new fish added that never caught it.

I bought a "TMC v2 Vecton 600 UV Steriliser", it's quite massive and sticks out of the back of the cabinet, but needs must. My dad and me organised the cabinet better so it fits fine. The important thing to focus on is the flow rate in the tank, as the UV light has to get enough time in contact with infected waters to kill the pathogens in the water. So I went for one that will definitely do this and more, just in case. Below is a size comparison with by Oase 600, and how it looks in the cbainet now it's installed.



 



I read somewhere that people also call Fish TB/mycobacteria "fish zombie disease" and like.... yeah, that's it exactly. Like in a film where the zombies all look uniquely gross and affected in different ways. I think I'm gonna have a good few weeks of a fish dying/needing to be put down every day or two, so that's super fun and not at all soul destroying. 🙃 I'm pretty sure that all of the pencils are gonners, so far they've been the most affected, and yesterday I noticed 2 "healthy" ones with white poo sticking out which I think is probs a symptom. I have got quite good at recognising the symptoms quite early just from shy behaviour and very slight body shape change, but I can't seem to stop myself from watching them for a further few days to make sure before euthanising.

New fish species are succumbing, my female sparkling gourami has lose her sparkle, become thin and has greyed eyes like cataracts. My single "leopard oto" I also found yesterday upsidedown on the floor of the tank heavy breathing. When I netted him he put up a bit of a fight and was trying to escape, but he seems to have lost the ability to hold onto glass or objects and just slips down and lay on the bottom doing nothing but breathing. He doesn't have any other visual symtoms, he is quite slim but not extremely. I think another regular oto could be sick too, it has more of a hump that it used to like it's bent and hunched. I have read that the micobacteria lives in biofilm, so I guess it's not surprising that the otos are being affected. This oto is was one of original very first fish though, honestly this is all pretty harrowing. I've sort of emotionally closed myself off from the tank as I'm anticipating that all the fish will die, even the apistos idk, I'm suspicious about how the female apisto looks atm.

For the future (which I have to imagine rn even if it's a long way off to give me some hope), I will make my 23L desk tank <seen in this journal> a quarantine tank for any new fish.  Currently it has ricefish (none of whom have died or got sick in this tank so I think it's ok) who are waiting for me to plant the little above-ground pond a bit more in April before they go out. This way I don't have to set up a new tank and have the family moan at me,  it's already stable and thriving, easy to remove all the hardscape if needed, and I think will be a much nicer place for new fish to enjoy that doesn't stress them out. Plus is lowtech so no CO2 worries. Before I always struggled with the idea of a quarantine tank which the fish would be stressed out in, it wouldn't be properly established with the filter, etc. So this is the best of both worlds. It's small so I can only keep a small number of fish in it to quarantine, which I think is good as it limits me from  rather than thinking "Oh my tanks massive, let's just get em today!". I will also keep them there for 6 weeks, this disease has taught me that it can easily take more than a month for some nasty symptoms to begin to show.

What I have learnt so much form this hobby is that yes, you might get away with not quarantining or doing best practice, but eventually something bad will happen, and if you didn't follow these guidelines you're f***ed. Or rather, your fish are. I read once that basically nobody quarantines until something goes horribly wrong, so I guess it's that time for me!

Fingers crossed one day soon this journal can go back to being positive. Really hate the whole death side of life! Hopefully this is useful to someone else.


----------



## Hufsa

Keep your heart closed for now, I think it is the only way to endure such an outbreak 💗
Sending all manner of positive vibes to your tank, fingers and everything crossed the UV will help!

Keep us updated if you can, I think its good to have more information about this terrible disease


----------



## The Miniaturist

I was going to hit "like" but it's not appropriate.
I think you have a huge task ahead of you and despite losing your lovely fish, seem to be determined to work through all difficulties you will encounter.
I'm sure everyone is wishing you well and hoping your Aquatic Eden is restored to near it's former beauty.
Sending supplication to the Naiads of the Aquarium to give you help and support. 💗


----------



## tacy k

Thank you for keeping up with your journal.  I am someone who has never had a quarantine tank and has been lucky enough to get away with it over the years. But after hearing what has happened to you, and knowing how well you care for your fish, I'm not going to risk it any more. No more fish until I have some where safe to quarantine them for a few weeks.  So you have protected my 7 clown loaches, bristle nose ancistrus,  6 cory sterbei, 3 pearl gourami, 10 congo tetra, 7 angels and 11 hatchets from any future exposure to this  or any other disease.  Thank you.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


tacy k said:


> No more fish until I have some where safe to quarantine them for a few weeks.


I think <"quarantine is essential">, it is only a matter of time before something grisly happens without it.  I keep a <"spare planted tank">, rather than a bare quarantine tank.

cheers Darrel


----------



## mort

I'm so sorry to hear of your troubles. I haven't looked at the thread for a while because it's one of my favourite journals and I like to catch up on it in big chunks. It really sounds like you are going through it at the moment and it's so sad to hear about your beautiful cat and now the fish.
I've not dealt with tb and I'm sure with your research that you are probably the most knowledgeable of us now so I'll just say good luck and I'm sure when things improve you will get your mojo back. I had a huge, long fight with vibrio in our seahorse breeding system and the enthusiasm drained but came back. Last spring the demented idiot child thats our back neighbour poured something into our pond filter barrel and killed all of our fish (most in their 20's) because our neighbour called the police on him and he thought they lived here. It was the most heart wrenching day of my life draining the pond the burying all those beloved fish but I'm now getting some motivation at creating a wildlife haven, so we can all heal.


----------



## shangman

Had to euthanise another pencilfish today, it looked normal from far away but I realised when it moved at different angles that all around the base of the tail its scales were pineconed out, like it had dropsy but just the last 1/4 of its body. 

I am thinking that it might be best to euthanise all the pencilfish, they have had the most symptoms and they seem to be fine one day and have some horrible symptom you wouldn't wish on anything the next. I don't want to do it, but maybe it is for the best? IDK, no easy answers right now, I've already killed 6 of 15. Has anyone else done this before? I think probably the pencils brought it in with them, but the thing with this disease is that it could've easily been in the tank before, and just the introduction of a new non-immune-resistant fish triggered it to spread. So sad because my pencils are really beautiful playful funny little fish with bags of personality, but I think they are probably doomed. I will have to keep them again one day, I hope soon but who knows tbh. None of them ever jumped from the tank either!

I still look at the tank constantly, but mostly just to find any problem fish, which I often find. Like every 2 days or so I have to euthanise a fish, and immediately after I look in the tank and all I see are healthy playful fish. Then I look in the next morning, and another one is looking dodgy. And so on and on I guess. I am trying very hard to not find it all so upsetting, I don't get too upset when I have to kill the sick fish as I know it's better for them not to suffer, but I feel along the way of making and looking after this tank I accidentally put a bit of my soul into it and it is so hard to look at it now and know it has such a precarious future. It is rather heartbreaking. I won't quit this hobby because I love it so much but damn, with the love comes real pain. 



mort said:


> I'm so sorry to hear of your troubles. I haven't looked at the thread for a while because it's one of my favourite journals and I like to catch up on it in big chunks. It really sounds like you are going through it at the moment and it's so sad to hear about your beautiful cat and now the fish.
> I've not dealt with tb and I'm sure with your research that you are probably the most knowledgeable of us now so I'll just say good luck and I'm sure when things improve you will get your mojo back. I had a huge, long fight with vibrio in our seahorse breeding system and the enthusiasm drained but came back. Last spring the demented idiot child thats our back neighbour poured something into our pond filter barrel and killed all of our fish (most in their 20's) because our neighbour called the police on him and he thought they lived here. It was the most heart wrenching day of my life draining the pond the burying all those beloved fish but I'm now getting some motivation at creating a wildlife haven, so we can all heal.


Honestly it means so much to me for you to consider my journal one of your favourites. I really love sharing it all with you guys, when the tank is nice it's fun to show off, and when things aren't going well your kindness makes it all not so bad. I hope I can eventually steer it back into joyful times again, even if it takes a while.

My deepest condolences to you and your beloved fish, what a disgusting evil senseless thing for someone to do, they deserves the police called on them and more. I think you're right to look at it the way you do, a wildlife haven sounds beautiful and is so needed by wildlife everywhere, hopefully nature can do it's magic and be really healing. I think that's the awful thing about all this stuff, this hobby is so relaxing and healing and good for the old anxiety when things are going well, but when they're wrong it's like a stab in the heart. When other stuff is rubbish in life I would just go look at my tank and do some maintenance and that really helps, but now that comfort has been taken away it's just very ??? 



dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I think <"quarantine is essential">, it is only a matter of time before something grisly happens without it.  I keep a <"spare planted tank">, rather than a bare quarantine tank.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Definitely. I'm going to do what you do, and convert one of my small planted tanks into a quarantine tank, it's not very big but it's bigger than an aquarium shop tank and at least a lot more interesting habitat and good water quality. Can just keep shrimp in it or use it as a breeding tank when it's not used as quarantine. I hate the bare tanks and that's what always kept me away from quarantining before but ... yeah, been burned! Won't put my hand in the fire again.



tacy k said:


> Thank you for keeping up with your journal.  I am someone who has never had a quarantine tank and has been lucky enough to get away with it over the years. But after hearing what has happened to you, and knowing how well you care for your fish, I'm not going to risk it any more. No more fish until I have some where safe to quarantine them for a few weeks.  So you have protected my 7 clown loaches, bristle nose ancistrus,  6 cory sterbei, 3 pearl gourami, 10 congo tetra, 7 angels and 11 hatchets from any future exposure to this  or any other disease.  Thank you.


Thank you 💗 I hope that people can learn from my mistakes and avoid them cos they are really awful consequences. I know it's tedious and extra work and the family can be annoyed about an extra tank, but it is so worth it long term. The guilt is immense, I really recommend avoiding it.



The Miniaturist said:


> I was going to hit "like" but it's not appropriate.
> I think you have a huge task ahead of you and despite losing your lovely fish, seem to be determined to work through all difficulties you will encounter.
> I'm sure everyone is wishing you well and hoping your Aquatic Eden is restored to near it's former beauty.
> Sending supplication to the Naiads of the Aquarium to give you help and support. 💗


Aw it's ok, I know that likes are an act of support from people 💗  I really appreciate your well wishes and kindness  I am so determined to do everything I can to save as many as I can and get my little eden back on track. 



Hufsa said:


> Keep your heart closed for now, I think it is the only way to endure such an outbreak 💗
> Sending all manner of positive vibes to your tank, fingers and everything crossed the UV will help!
> 
> Keep us updated if you can, I think its good to have more information about this terrible disease


I am really trying 💗 but I let myself get too into this tank to close my heart easily. I'm currently trying and failing tbh. Definitely will keep updating everything, at least that feels a bit productive and like I'm doing something useful!


----------



## DeepMetropolis

What an horror story! Never quarantined a fish before but now I feel like it's a must, don't know if I could keep up with an other extra tank though.  Hope your sterilizer will work, loosing any stock is always heartbreaking.


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## PARAGUAY

Quarantine makes so much sense, such a relaxed feeling that new fish not immediately being mixed in a existing healthy set up. Because a lot of lfs don't quarantine, it's best to observe the fish .


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## Conort2

Have you treated for any internal parasites? It seems like you have a few issues going on. I would’ve said neon tetra disease but your dicrossus are affected which makes me want to rule that out.


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## shangman

Conort2 said:


> Have you treated for any internal parasites? It seems like you have a few issues going on. I would’ve said neon tetra disease but your dicrossus are affected which makes me want to rule that out.


I treated the tank with flukesolve about a month ago as I saw 2 fish rubbing their gills. I've also treated the tank with Esha2000 last week, and about 3 weeks ago with EshaExit when the tank got ich, which was really when everything else started going downhill more quickly. The ich has gone, but the other treatments didn't seem to do anything. I think probably the ich outbreak was due to the lowering immunity of the fish from the other things they seem to have. 

Happy to try anything else that you guys can suggest that isn't very expensive!

It looks like neon tetra disease is another non-treatable mycobacterium disease like Fish TB, and tbh I could see it with some of the symptoms I've got. As you said, the dicrossus being affected with a completely different kind of symptom is what is particularly hmmm, but Fish TB does including lesions which are often around the head. Maybe I've got 2+ diseases in there, like maybe neon tetra disease and hexamita or another internal parasite? I did look at Hexamita treatment but it's not shrimp-safe, and I do have a lot of cherries in there which I worry would screw the water quality even more if I killed them all with a treatment, they're impossible to get out. Plus the dicrossus just looked bad quite quickly, I think they were too small to last long and recover. I wish I had the extra cash for a vet confirmation but I decided to spend what I had on the UV that could treat and help the tank instead just in case. when I can afford it I will do it so we can know wtf is going on.

Fish species that have died:
Pencilfish maculatus(6), cardinal tetra (3), dicrossus (3), sparkling gourami (1), pygmy cory (1), oxyropsis (1). Might be a few more but I think that's it so far, and with many different symptoms including:
Bloating, dropsy, anorexia/thinness, bent spine (not extremely bent it's quite subtle, the tail bends down slightly), head lensions, scales falling off, white grazes on body, odd colouring, fin rot, face rot, paralysis, long white faeces, not eating. Generally fish show 1-2 of these symptoms each. This is over a month, generally one or two fish at a time. I would expect if it was another disease/diseases that more of the fish would have symptoms and be getting sick faster, and Fish TB has all of these symptoms in it's list.



DeepMetropolis said:


> What an horror story! Never quarantined a fish before but now I feel like it's a must, don't know if I could keep up with an other extra tank though.  Hope your sterilizer will work, loosing any stock is always heartbreaking.


Yeha I think it is a must tbh, if you don't want to risk everything in the tank. None of my close fish friends quarantine and they have fish from all the shops I've bought from, so I thought I could risk it. We're all at risk of bad luck, anything to mitigate this one I think is really worth it.



PARAGUAY said:


> Quarantine makes so much sense, such a relaxed feeling that new fish not immediately being mixed in a existing healthy set up. Because a lot of lfs don't quarantine, it's best to observe the fish .


Yeah exactly, I think after this I would have major anxiety for the next few months if I just added new fish to the tank knowing what could happen, especially as nothing abnormal happened for 5 weeks after adding my latest fish. I always thought that disease would happen quicker. So not only will I quarantine, but I will quarantine for 2 months. Makes stocking slow, but worth it in the long run! Plus I think I will only buy from a very few number of high quality shops like the Fish Barn. 

What I've realised about this hobby is that my goal is to make long-term (at least 2 years if nto longer) scapes full of thriving healthy fish which I keep for a few years with proper stability. For stability, I need to be careful and do things slowly. I think cos I'm quite new to the hobby I can get overexcited about buying the fish when I saw them, rather than only buy it from a really good source after planning it out. I have to really control that part of myself cos I just end up hurt in the long run. I see this way of doing things not just in me but in my friends too, it's not always a bad thing but it's easy to get greedy when seeing the very shiny things.


----------



## Hufsa

Would anyone else be interested in bankrolling (is this the right word?) as a group to help @shangman pay for the vet? If enough people chip in just a small amount then it could suddenly be much more doable?

Im up for it, let me know what you think guys&girls ?


----------



## The Miniaturist

Hi there,
@shangman, your last paragraph is very true. It is far too easy to get carried away when you see all the beautiful fish available. 
Over the years I have learned, having nano tanks, to research well by reading other people's experiences with fish I'm interested in on sites like this, then pick a couple of suitable species to stock the aquarium, obviously scale things up for a bigger volume.
I'm unlikely to ever have a large showpiece aquarium but whatever the size I'd still aim for a stable environment for the fish to live out their natural lifespan.
I've got a couple of Chelsea Pensioner cherry barbs, whiling away their twilight years in one tank!
I've never had a major disease outbreak, though a heater failure (on, unfortunately) nearly caused me to give everything up a few years ago but I think it's in my blood & I simply can't imagine not having a tank to watch, enjoy and sometimes stress over!


----------



## Karmicnull

Hufsa said:


> Would anyone else be interested in bankrolling (is this the right word?) as a group to help @shangman pay for the vet? If enough people chip in just a small amount then it could suddenly be much more doable?
> 
> Im up for it, let me know what you think guys&girls ?


I'm in.
Simon


----------



## Karmicnull

For those concerned about the burden of a QT. My 35L one that I got off Gumtree doubles as a potting shed, has a few shrimp in it more by accident than design and gets a 60% WC every 2-3 weeks which takes me about 20 mins to do. It runs off a sponge filter and is pretty much as close to zero effort as you can get.


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## John q

Hufsa said:


> Would anyone else be interested in bankrolling (is this the right word?) as a group to help @shangman pay for the vet?


I'd be happy to help in some small way either towards the vet bill or helping with a restocking fund.


----------



## Wookii

Similar to what other folks have said, I have never quarantined any fish and just got lucky - I certainly will be doing so going forward and will set up a dedicated tank.

So how long do new fish need to be quarantined before you can be happy that they haven't got something like TB?


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> Would anyone else be interested in bankrolling (is this the right word?) as a group to help @shangman pay for the vet? If enough people chip in just a small amount then it could suddenly be much more doable?
> 
> Im up for it, let me know what you think guys&girls ?



Yes, I'd be willing to contribute - I think it would be beneficial to anyone reading this thread, myself included, to see a formal diagnosis. How much did they quote you @shangman - did it involve sending a sample off to a lab rather than a Vet just 'eyeballing' it?


----------



## tacy k

Hufsa said:


> Would anyone else be interested in bankrolling (is this the right word?) as a group to help @shangman pay for the vet? If enough people chip in just a small amount then it could suddenly be much more doable?
> 
> Im up for it, let me know what you think guys&girls ?


I'm definitely in.


----------



## The Miniaturist

I'd contribute. Not sure how as I don't have an online account but I can always send a brown envelope in the post? I'm sure everyone wants to know what this disease/bacteria is as it has taken hold so rapidly.


----------



## KirstyF

I could put some in too. 👍


----------



## shangman

😭😭😭 You are all so lovely I am literally crying!!! This past month has been so awful and I'm so glad to be part of this community that is so engaging and supportive. @Hufsa @Karmicnull @John q @Wookii @tacy k @The Miniaturist @KirstyF  ! I really didn't expect this 🥰 Even just a little bit is so useful.

Honestly it's been like COMICALLY grim at my house the past few weeks. As you guys know we had to put down our beloved cat which I shared here cos this is a pets kinda place, and then my tank went downhill. Last week my partner's dad died of a heart attack suddenly, and just yesterday one of my mum's closest old friends died of pancreatic cancer that she was diagnosed with only 2 weeks ago. It feels a bit like our house is cursed it all happening at once tbh. I know that the fishtank does not compare to people, it has felt quite selfish for me to be so upset about the tank but it just even more enhances the awfulness of everything. I feel like at least I can try and do something about the fish tank and be a bit proactive, cos it's hard to know what to do in times like these! Plus the bit of money I used to have for aquariums is much lower due to living costs and inbetween work. I am stuck at home job hunting (this in itself is grim lmao) so I have a lot of time to watch the tank and obsess about it.

I really so much appreciate you guys helping out!! I really want to know what it is that the fish have. As much as symptoms line up with TB in my mind, they are generic enough and wide enough that it could be all sorts of things, I just don't have the experience to help.



The Miniaturist said:


> Hi there,
> @shangman, your last paragraph is very true. It is far too easy to get carried away when you see all the beautiful fish available.
> Over the years I have learned, having nano tanks, to research well by reading other people's experiences with fish I'm interested in on sites like this, then pick a couple of suitable species to stock the aquarium, obviously scale things up for a bigger volume.
> I'm unlikely to ever have a large showpiece aquarium but whatever the size I'd still aim for a stable environment for the fish to live out their natural lifespan.
> I've got a couple of Chelsea Pensioner cherry barbs, whiling away their twilight years in one tank!
> I've never had a major disease outbreak, though a heater failure (on, unfortunately) nearly caused me to give everything up a few years ago but I think it's in my blood & I simply can't imagine not having a tank to watch, enjoy and sometimes stress over!


I have pushed it tbh, my stocking would be fine in this tank except that I probably have 15 kuhli loaches living in the caves underneath it all. 5 full sized ones, 10 small matchstick sized. At least, I might do, I never see more than 2 (one big and one small) and never see them out with lights on, so there could be just those 2 left. In my old tank I thought they'd all died, but when I took it apart they were all there and all very fat, so it's possible either way, I added the extras so I might see them more often but it didn't work! I definitely couldn't get them out or know without taking apart the whole tank. Though the fish were all so small that it never seemed overstocked at all, the volume of them wasn't much so I thought it was fine compared to the safety they felt for their numbers. In my fishkeeping, I see many of my flaws laid bare.

I suppose every tank is an experiment and this tank is just a different experiment than I thought it would be, with each tank I start it thinking I know it all before realising I know nothing!



Karmicnull said:


> For those concerned about the burden of a QT. My 35L one that I got off Gumtree doubles as a potting shed, has a few shrimp in it more by accident than design and gets a 60% WC every 2-3 weeks which takes me about 20 mins to do. It runs off a sponge filter and is pretty much as close to zero effort as you can get.



This is a great way to do it, low effort but really useful. Tbh this is what I love about lowtech nano tanks, they can be really easy and really nice too.



Wookii said:


> Similar to what other folks have said, I have never quarantined any fish and just got lucky - I certainly will be doing so going forward and will set up a dedicated tank.
> 
> So how long do new fish need to be quarantined before you can be happy that they haven't got something like TB?



I'm glad, I think when you are setting up your big tank soon it would be 100% worth it to use one of your current ones as a quarantine tank for the new fish. My first pencilfish had symptoms after about a month in the tank, dicrossus began a week or two after that. I think I will quarantine for 8 weeks, apparently the tb can be slow acting and I'm now paranoid about it, but a month - 6 weeks catch a lot. It seems like 2 weeks isn't enough to know. Some fish are more susceptible than others I have read, including gourami, rainbowfish and cichlids.



Wookii said:


> I think it would be beneficial to anyone reading this thread, myself included, to see a formal diagnosis. How much did they quote you @shangman - did it involve sending a sample off to a lab rather than a Vet just 'eyeballing' it?



When I first emailed I asked about the cost of a fish tb test, they replied saying they I needed a £35 25 minute chat first to help diagnostics and didn't tell me the price of a test. I know that's not that much but my panic brain started to worry about how that could be just the beginning of an excursion I couldn't afford when they didn't just tell me straight up. I am assuming it will be about £100 for the test. Whenever we went to the vets for the cats it was always about £100 lol. Not too sure though, maybe the vet will have other ideas and want to test for several things. I will email the vet tomorrow morning about the consultation and see what they say and report back.

I think having a diagnosis will really help to understand where to go from here.


----------



## John q

Wookii said:


> So how long do new fish need to be quarantined before you can be happy that they haven't got something like TB?



General rule of thumb is 2 to 3 weeks, 4 if you really want to play it safe. 

From what I've read on Mycobacteriosis, which isn't a lot, the suggestion is it can some times lay dormant in fish for a number of weeks or even months, so whilst a 2~3 week quarantine "should" rule out most diseases its not a cast iron guarantee that it will keep you safe from tb. 



shangman said:


> You are all so lovely I am literally crying!!! This past month has been so awful and I'm so glad to be part of this community that is so engaging and supportive



Sometimes as a community we can try and pull together and do some good. I'm sure you'd do the same if the shoe was on the other foot mate. 

Get back to us on the proposed vets fees and I'm sure between us we can lessen the blow a bit.


----------



## aec34

John q said:


> Sometimes as a community we can try and pull together and do some good. I'm sure you'd do the same if the shoe was on the other foot mate.
> 
> Get back to us on the proposed vets fees and I'm sure between us we can lessen the blow a bit.


This. 👆


----------



## Wookii

shangman said:


> When I first emailed I asked about the cost of a fish tb test, they replied saying they I needed a £35 25 minute chat first to help diagnostics and didn't tell me the price of a test.



Call me an old sceptic, I know we all love the good work Vets do, but that does sound like a classic cash extraction exercise!

Put your foot down, explain you are an experienced fish keeper, and simply want a Yes/No confirmation of fish TB.


----------



## John q

Wookii said:


> but that does sound like a classic cash extraction exercise!


I wonder if @MirandaB  or @castle  could recommend a decent aquatic pathologist that would give a yes or no diagnosis without fear of being taken to the cleaners?


----------



## PARAGUAY

Your local Pets@Home possibly could recommend one locally.  When my daughter took a cagebird in they did have a specialist vet but gave her a couple nearest. Worth a try


----------



## MirandaB

I don't know of anyone who might be able to do it unfortunately but I'm more than happy to chip in for the test too


----------



## castle

I sympathise, I believe this is something that most of us have experienced, and it's a lesson you only need to learn once.


----------



## shangman

I've emailed the first vet again and they have said they can just do the TB test, and that it will cost £115 + postage costs to get 3 small fish to them to test. They said that the 25 mins call was just to hear more about the tank and the problems as there is a lot about  fish TB online. I mean it totally is possible that that's not the problem! 

Edit: whoops accidentally posted this too early without responding to everything


----------



## John q

So how we going to do this @Hufsa 

Would you like to set up a group pm where we can make our pledges and get Rosie's details?


----------



## Hufsa

John q said:


> So how we going to do this @Hufsa
> 
> Would you like to set up a group pm where we can make our pledges and get Rosie's details?


Right yes, do you reckon paypal would work for the majority? I know @The Miniaturist will most likely need another option. I will send @shangman a PM to discuss our options


----------



## John q

Hufsa said:


> Right yes, do you reckon paypal would work for the majority?


Works for me 👍


----------



## Wookii

shangman said:


> I'm glad, I think when you are setting up your big tank soon it would be 100% worth it to use one of your current ones as a quarantine tank for the new fish. My first pencilfish had symptoms after about a month in the tank, dicrossus began a week or two after that. I think I will quarantine for 8 weeks, apparently the tb can be slow acting and I'm now paranoid about it, but a month - 6 weeks catch a lot. It seems like 2 weeks isn't enough to know. Some fish are more susceptible than others I have read, including gourami, rainbowfish and cichlids.





John q said:


> General rule of thumb is 2 to 3 weeks, 4 if you really want to play it safe.
> 
> From what I've read on Mycobacteriosis, which isn't a lot, the suggestion is it can some times lay dormant in fish for a number of weeks or even months, so whilst a 2~3 week quarantine "should" rule out most diseases its not a cast iron guarantee that it will keep you safe from tb.



Hmm, that's a bit of a pain then - ultimately on reading this thread, its the TB we want to avoid isn't it? Looks like 8 weeks would be the most comprehensive option.

Do most people treat quarantined fish for worms and flukes etc as standard?


----------



## castle

I quarantine for 3 weeks


Wookii said:


> Hmm, that's a bit of a pain then - ultimately on reading this thread, its the TB we want to avoid isn't it? Looks like 8 weeks would be the most comprehensive option.
> 
> Do most people treat quarantined fish for worms and flukes etc as standard?



I deworm every fish that I get, I normally follow this up with a course of Melafix - now, it's obviously not essential, but it's done no harm - that I can tell. 

Iridovirus is a real f***** too.


----------



## The Miniaturist

When I think of the times I've simply acclimated fish & put them in the tank.....
I have had the odd fish become deformed & die, or maybe one unexpectedly go with minimal symptoms other than looking a bit "off colour" but nothing ever seems to have been passed on to the other fish.
I consider myself extremely lucky. 🍀
Serious consideration will be given to a long-term quarantine tank but I'm not planning any new purchases at the moment.


----------



## shangman

John q said:


> Sometimes as a community we can try and pull together and do some good. I'm sure you'd do the same if the shoe was on the other foot mate.
> 
> Get back to us on the proposed vets fees and I'm sure between us we can lessen the blow a bit.


This is why this place is the best place! I really appreciate it so much <3 You are right I certainly would help if someone else had a similar crisis, once I finally get a new job I'll be able to contribute in kind 



castle said:


> I sympathise, I believe this is something that most of us have experienced, and it's a lesson you only need to learn once.


Yes I certainly won't be making this mistake again 🙃 it is a comfort to know that I'm not alone though, it's really easy to get in a guilty spiral about it and think I'm the worst person in the world.



castle said:


> I quarantine for 3 weeks
> 
> 
> I deworm every fish that I get, I normally follow this up with a course of Melafix - now, it's obviously not essential, but it's done no harm - that I can tell.
> 
> Iridovirus is a real f***** too.


I would like to know more about quarantining best practice, what do you worm with? I feel like if I'm gonna do it I might as well treat for everything I can!



Wookii said:


> Hmm, that's a bit of a pain then - ultimately on reading this thread, its the TB we want to avoid isn't it? Looks like 8 weeks would be the most comprehensive option.
> 
> Do most people treat quarantined fish for worms and flukes etc as standard?


It seems so! I will definitely be doing 8 weeks. Of course the other good thing to do according to Diana Walstad to have a UV steriliser on the tank. That way, even if infected fish do go in the tank, any disease they release into the water can be killed before affecting other fish. And several other sources have implied that it's good in the quarantine tank too which makes sense. At some point I'll go back and record all the sources on fish TB that I've found in case it's useful, and maybe just write up a new thread on it here so people can search for it really easily.



The Miniaturist said:


> When I think of the times I've simply acclimated fish & put them in the tank.....
> I have had the odd fish become deformed & die, or maybe one unexpectedly go with minimal symptoms other than looking a bit "off colour" but nothing ever seems to have been passed on to the other fish.
> I consider myself extremely lucky. 🍀
> Serious consideration will be given to a long-term quarantine tank but I'm not planning any new purchases at the moment.


TBH I do look back and wonder if the tank had this before I got the pencils & dicrossus, and they as new fish were just more susceptable. I will never completely know which fish brought it in, like you I have had a fish die here and there every month or two. Usually it's just one of a group within 2 weeks of me getting them so I don't think about it much.

I used to think of quarantining as a burden, something I knew I should do but seemed like such a hassle, and I convinced myself it was better because it's good to get the fish in a nice new home that is bigger, filled with plants to make them safe, better water etc. I think as fish are so easy to buy it's easy to think frivolously about it, it's easy to let the exciting fish madness take over in a fishshop because they are so captivating. But I have come to love and respect this tank and my fish so much, I have realised that adding new creatures shouldn't be frivolous and that strict quarantining is my way of showing my love and respect for what I already have. I all endangered my fish and let this happen to them, if I had quarantined it would not have been this way. So I'm coming to view quarantining as a way of respecting and cherishing what I already have and understanding that it needs to be protected.

Too much wanting, not enough gratitude!


----------



## shangman

Also, I forgot to write it here earlier but I want to still record what's going on in the tank - I found an oto dead 2 days ago. I had noticed one of my biggest otos for the past few days that seemed to be bent with a kinda hunchback and it was actually in the front and more active than usual (usually otos hide on the back and only move about a bit in the evening). I think it is probably the same one, I didn't kill it because it was still active and didn't have any obvious skin problems. So that's whatever the tank has in a different species of fish. It is quite different across the species whatever it is.


----------



## MirandaB

Quarantining for Mycobacteria is an almost impossible task as really you're looking at anything up to 6 months before it shows itself but quarantining for a few weeks is good practice and should sort any immediate problems that arise.
I usually just worm as a matter of course in QT  unless they're wild caught then I usually follow up with something to treat flagellates.
Bottom dwelling fish and those which graze on algae/aufwuchs will likely be more susceptible to infection as they're grazing the biofilm where there's probably a higher concentration of bacteria.


----------



## KirstyF

I think recording and describing any ongoing issues/losses/symptoms will be helpful to the community if you are willing.

IMO, I also think that what you’re going through right now @shangman could easily describe any number of us and in the case of this particular disease, even a regular quarantine might not have caught it, so try not to feel too bad. (Easier said than done, I know)

It is, however, a good highlight that quarantine is best practice for a reason and, as someone who has not quarantined the fish in her current tank, it strikes a bell.

I’ll have a second tank within the next couple of weeks and will be quarantining any future additions!! 

Just to confirm, will either yourself or @Hufsa be setting up a PM conversation for those who are happy to contribute to TB testing, if you decide to proceed with that?


----------



## Hufsa

The PM conversation is now live, let me know if I have forgotten anybody!


----------



## shangman

MirandaB said:


> Quarantining for Mycobacteria is an almost impossible task as really you're looking at anything up to 6 months before it shows itself but quarantining for a few weeks is good practice and should sort any immediate problems that arise.
> I usually just worm as a matter of course in QT  unless they're wild caught then I usually follow up with something to treat flagellates.
> Bottom dwelling fish and those which graze on algae/aufwuchs will likely be more susceptible to infection as they're grazing the biofilm where there's probably a higher concentration of bacteria.


I did think that about the oto and the first oxyropsis that died earlier this week - if it is fish TB, and mycobacteria is in the biofilm of the tank then it makes sense for them to get it and suffer from it sooner rather than later.

What do you use to worm and for the flagellates?



KirstyF said:


> I think recording and describing any ongoing issues/losses/symptoms will be helpful to the community if you are willing.
> 
> IMO, I also think that what you’re going through right now @shangman could easily describe any number of us and in the case of this particular disease, even a regular quarantine might not have caught it, so try not to feel too bad. (Easier said than done, I know)
> 
> It is, however, a good highlight that quarantine is best practice for a reason and, as someone who has not quarantined the fish in her current tank, it strikes a bell.
> 
> I’ll have a second tank within the next couple of weeks and will be quarantining any future additions!!
> 
> Just to confirm, will either yourself or @Hufsa be setting up a PM conversation for those who are happy to contribute to TB testing, if you decide to proceed with that?


I have been recording everything (since I realised something was off, didn't photograph all fish that died sadly) in bits and pieces, hopefully at some point this ordeal will be over and I can put everything together into a mega post that's just all good info.

I'm glad you will be quarantining all your fish in the big tank, it's so much effort to make a beautiful big tank, it's definitely worth this extra bit to help ensure its longevity.


The extremely lovely @Hufsa had organised things for me. Thank you all so much to everyone who has already sent me something to help!!! It is honestly so touching ❤️ I feel so loved 🥰


----------



## MirandaB

shangman said:


> What do you use to worm and for the flagellates?


As a lot of my fish are sensitive to some medications it's usually esha NDX for worms and Manaus Aquariums Octocil for the flagellates.


----------



## KirstyF

shangman said:


> I have been recording everything (since I realised something was off, didn't photograph all fish that died sadly) in bits and pieces, hopefully at some point this ordeal will be over and I can put everything together into a mega post that's just all good info.
> 
> I'm glad you will be quarantining all your fish in the big tank, it's so much effort to make a beautiful big tank, it's definitely worth this extra bit to help ensure its longevity.



I think that’s a good plan. I’m sure this has been horribly traumatic for you and it would be good to think that something positive may come from it 😊

I’ve had most of my fishies from a supplier that quarantine’s (in separate tanks) for a minimum of 2 weeks but…most, is not all….and two weeks is only two weeks…..so ur right, it is still worth it! 👍


----------



## sparkyweasel

Hufsa said:


> Right yes, do you reckon paypal would work for the majority? I know @The Miniaturist will most likely need another option. I will send @shangman a PM to discuss our options


For those who didn't know; you can send payments through Paypal without opening an account with them. 
hth


----------



## The Miniaturist

That would be me then, thank you @sparkyweasel! I had been trying to find out, but being somewhat of a luddite with just phone data, I'm afraid these things take a little longer to discover.
Sorry for sounding so useless, I still don't know what all the icon thingies mean on the screen but I'll get there in the end....
I suppose the next thing I need is the relevant PayPal account number?


----------



## Hufsa

The Miniaturist said:


> That would be me then, thank you @sparkyweasel! I had been trying to find out, but being somewhat of a luddite with just phone data, I'm afraid these things take a little longer to discover.
> Sorry for sounding so useless, I still don't know what all the icon thingies mean on the screen but I'll get there in the end....
> I suppose the next thing I need is the relevant PayPal account number?


Ive sent you a PM


----------



## Wookii

MirandaB said:


> As a lot of my fish are sensitive to some medications it's usually esha NDX for worms and Manaus Aquariums Octocil for the flagellates.



In my ignorance, I have to admit that 'flagellates' was a new term to me so I had to 'Google-research' it! Would a praziquantel based treatment such as Flukesolve deal with those as well, or conversely does the Octocil treat flukes and tape worms also, or would you need to use all three (NDX, Flukesolve, Octocil) to cover all bases?


----------



## shangman

Omg you guys have raised enough for the fish TB test already!! 😍 I know I keep saying it but honestly what a fabulous lovely community, thank you all for contributing 🥰 I've been feeling very low about it all and this has given me a real lift. 

I've got my eye on some slightly dodgy pencilfish who I think have the illness, who I will send off for testing next week. 



MirandaB said:


> As a lot of my fish are sensitive to some medications it's usually esha NDX for worms and Manaus Aquariums Octocil for the flagellates.


Great thank you, I'll invest in these when I do finally buy some new fish. 



KirstyF said:


> I think that’s a good plan. I’m sure this has been horribly traumatic for you and it would be good to think that something positive may come from it 😊
> 
> I’ve had most of my fishies from a supplier that quarantine’s (in separate tanks) for a minimum of 2 weeks but…most, is not all….and two weeks is only two weeks…..so ur right, it is still worth it! 👍


It has been quite awful tbh, and just such a drain to know that things will get worse before they get better. I look in the tank with a bit of dread every day atm. 

But it is great to be doing the test with the vet, being able to do something makes it feel much better. And it feels like I'm part of a team with all you guys behind me, makes it much less depressing. We will get through this!! 

I think if you quarantined for a few weeks on top that would be fabulous. I will also be buying from a shop that properly quarantines everything as well, so it's as thorough as possible!


----------



## shangman

Well gang, enough was raised that I decided to first talk to the vet and get her opinion, thinking knowledge is power.

So her opinion is it isn't fish TB in the tank, because fish TB classically kills very slowly over months/years, not so quickly like here. She said we can still do the test, but that also she expects it would be positive because almost all fish and all tanks have it, but at a low level that wouldn't hurt the fish. I think she doesn't want me to be disappointed given that it is expensive, but I think it's good to try. So even if it is positive, we may still not know if that is the problem I guess. I'm not completely convinced, and I still want to do the FishTB test, but I will try her suggestions first anyway in case it does help. From what I've read fishTB can become more nasty, as it did with Diana Walstad. Maybe it is the case that fishTB scares online are all something else, and the fishTB people see as the most obvious problem even when it isn't. She also said that fish get fishTB from eating infected dead fish, which is possible in my tank, as I seem to have less tetra and pencils than I used to, I don't think I have found or euthanised all the sick fish even though I've tried to prevent this. I gave the fish so many hiding places thinking it would make them less stressed, but it also means there are places that they could die without me knowing. 

I do suspect some secondary infections are going on and that's influencing the variety of symptoms though, such as the ich. The ich affected almost the whole tank very quickly, but it went away with a treatment of EshaExit. It came back a little, with 1 or 2 dots on maybe 3 fish that already had other symptoms and this was a sign for me to euthanise. I treated it again when I saw this as well and it hasn't come back in 2 weeks. Interestingly she confirmed to me that ich can come from adding new plants from infected tanks,  which is one of my theories as to why my tank showed no ich for 5 weeks after adding new fish. I did add lots of new plants at that time. I personally am not 100% convinced that what is wrong with the tank came with the pencils+dicrossus, I think it's very possible other fish already had it in the tank as I have had a death here or there every month or two for the whole of the tanks duration, the pencils & dicrossus could've caught it while in the tank and are just extra sensitive to it.

So she's suggested I again treat with a higher dose of EshaExit, Esha2000, plus add EshaOptima to help the fish's immunity this week. And then once I've treat that then treat with FlukeSolve again to try and hit all the potential pathogens in the tank. She suspects some sort of protazoa primarily.

The vet's theory essentially  isthat the fish are stressed for some reason in my tank and that's what has caused a lowering in the immunity in the fish and a few things to take over. After I described the tank and everything I do with it, she thinks that it could be because when I waterchange and add water back in - I just add Prime straight to the tank first - rather than pretreating the water (I don't have space to pretreat the water sadly, no bathtub). Another option she thought is that the fish could have been used to the higher pH of water at the London shop I bought them from (pencils & dicrossus), and that they were acclimating badly to the lower pH of my water. But then whatever they had has clearly spread to tetra and otos who have been in my water for a long time so idk. I think that overstocking is the most obvious potential cause of stress, but tbh it is puzzling to me that the pencils would show it as they were in a much smaller more stocked tank at the shop, and they have shown nothing but confident bold behaviour - it's not like they were hiding with off colours. Then again, I probably just don't understand fish stress well enough. Also she said that pencils are particularly sensitive too. The whole time my waterquality has looked good, no obvious problems there.

Another option for treatment is to do scrapes to test for parasites, and she said she could do it, or find a friend with a microscope and do it myself. This does intrigue me, anyone in London here have a microscope? I thought you would have to kill a fish to do this, but apparently it needs live fish and won't neccesarily hurt them so that could be good. My male apisto twice I have seen scratch his gills on wood since I got him, and I have seena  fish or two over the past few months seem to itch (this is why I treated with FlukeSolve a while ago), it would be good to test him I think if it doesn't hurt him. Would be good to hear from people that do this, I know that koi people do, but has anyone done it with smaller fish?

On Friday I also made a video on my Instagram about my troubles (and that I thought it was probs fishTB). I got lots of lovely responses, and one that was particularly useful was an American guy who had a lot of experience at a fish shop and had dealt with confirmed fishTB before, and said his boss had dealt with it several times. They said they lost at least half the fish in their infected tanks. This is what is so confusing, that the vet doesn't think it's really a thing, but then other very experienced people do. Anyway, he said along with what I'm already doing, antiparasitic foods seem to help, they give frozen foods with Vita-chem, seamchem kanaplex, metroplex, focus & liquid garlic. Obviously can't do all of these because they aren't available here, but will try EshaOptima  and garlic at least, and then maybe Seachem Vitality. And of course if it isn't TB, then all those things help. I have notices a few articles talk about vitamins as part of treating fish and getting them as healthy as possible to overcome disease.

I personally still have a hunch that it is TB, and that TB open a door to everything else that's lurking in a tank in small amounts to attack. But also LBR I have no previous experience with this stuff so what I think is not really reliable. I will try the above things and then do the test. I need 3 affected fish, and right now only one looks dodgy to me tbh.


----------



## Conort2

I had an issue a while back with some of the issues you had, fish bloating, pine coming and developing red sores and eventually dying. I was at a loss and tried everything. In the end I thought I would try esha ndx which is used to treat camallanus worms and it worked. Apparently by the time these things actually show themselves the fish are already dead. I can imagine it would be a bigger issue with small fish as some these worms are pretty substantial and cause internal damage, hence the dropsy etc. now I could be completely wrong but it may be worth a go. The treatment was very effective. I think esha 2000 may be able to be used alongside it too.


----------



## shangman

Conort2 said:


> I had an issue a while back with some of the issues you had, fish bloating, pine coming and developing red sores and eventually dying. I was at a loss and tried everything. In the end I thought I would try esha ndx which is used to treat camallanus worms and it worked. Apparently by the time these things actually show themselves the fish are already dead. I can imagine it would be a bigger issue with small fish as some these worms are pretty substantial and cause internal damage, hence the dropsy etc. now I could be completely wrong but it may be worth a go. The treatment was very effective. I think esha 2000 may be able to be used alongside it too.


Honestly I might as well throw everything esha has at them at this point, I'll get some of that too.

Today I found another sick pencilfish with another symptoms, this one seems to have an internal lump in the back-half of it's body that's making it a strange shape. I'll take a picture later. It's marked for testing at the vet as long as it survives a few more days. ATM I'm sort of hoping for 2 more fish with symptoms to have a good chance of learning what the problem is. Seems a bit gruesome but I better to know and treat sooner.


----------



## Conort2

shangman said:


> Honestly I might as well throw everything esha has at them at this point, I'll get some of that too.
> 
> Today I found another sick pencilfish with another symptoms, this one seems to have an internal lump in the back-half of it's body that's making it a strange shape. I'll take a picture later. It's marked for testing at the vet as long as it survives a few more days. ATM I'm sort of hoping for 2 more fish with symptoms to have a good chance of learning what the problem is. Seems a bit gruesome but I better to know and treat sooner.


It seems to be taking over quite quickly whatever it is. It’s good that you can get a vet to take a further look into this.


----------



## shangman

Conort2 said:


> It seems to be taking over quite quickly whatever it is. It’s good that you can get a vet to take a further look into this.


It's odd in that it's always only 1, maybe 2 fish max with symptoms that come on quickly and unpleasantly. So one by one they go down, so it's fast but also slow as I have lots of small fish for this disease to get through. Generally 1 pencil, and 1 random other species of fish every week to keep it "interesting". I won't have any pencils left soon, I think once I get the results of the vet I will just put down the last of them rather than have them continue to suffer.


----------



## Conort2

shangman said:


> It's odd in that it's always only 1, maybe 2 fish max with symptoms that come on quickly and unpleasantly. So one by one they go down, so it's fast but also slow as I have lots of small fish for this disease to get through. Generally 1 pencil, and 1 random other species of fish every week to keep it "interesting". I won't have any pencils left soon, I think once I get the results of the vet I will just put down the last of them rather than have them continue to suffer.


Strange, mine was always celestial pearl danios and occasionally other fish. I can’t remember if it was as frequent as your deaths but always seemed to be one every few weeks. I started with around 20 or so and was left with around 5 after the treatment. The remaining 5 lived long and healthy lives.


----------



## shangman

Conort2 said:


> Strange, mine was always celestial pearl danios and occasionally other fish. I can’t remember if it was as frequent as your deaths but always seemed to be one every few weeks. I started with around 20 or so and was left with around 5 after the treatment. The remaining 5 lived long and healthy lives.


I guess we all have a fish that seems more prone to disease than others! Fingers crossed working with this vet I can identify the problem and fix it for the last few pencils. I feel like maybe I should euthanise, but if they stopped dying after one of the treatments I'm doing it would be a good indication of what's been going on.


----------



## shangman

Has anyone else performed a scrape on small tropical fish? The vet has said that this would be good to see if there are any parasites, and that the fish should be alive for it, but looking online I only see instructions for koi where it is much more obvious how to do it. The vet has said that she can come and do it, or I can do it myself if I have a microscope (I've got a friend with one luckily). I've been googling to find some instructions but I haven't found any yet. The histopathology test will test for FishTB, confirm symptoms and for signs of parasites/parasite damage, but can't actually test for parasites themselves as they leave as soon as a fish dies apparently, so a scrape is a great way to test directly for the parasites.

Also, has anyone seen JBL Spirohexol Plus 250 or Manaus Aquariums Octocil for sale? I can't seem to find them anywhere, and I think treating for flagellates would be another good one to try. I'm still in contact with the vet via email and she thinks my problems have been caused by some sort of a parasite, and recommended trying to kill every type out there with available meds while we wait for test results.


----------



## Hufsa

shangman said:


> Also, has anyone seen JBL Spirohexol Plus 250


JBL Spirohexol Plus 250 (what a mouthful) seems to be discontinued by JBL. I found the ingredients which are;


> 2-amino-5-nitrothiazole
> polyvinylpyrrolidone
> cellulose





shangman said:


> or Manaus Aquariums Octocil for sale?


I can only find links for this to european websites :/

What strange obscure medications
I will continue looking!


----------



## shangman

OMG just now I've been clearing the tank of greenfly-infested hydrocotyle, and spied ANOTHER sick pencilfish, of course with ANOTHER new symptom to me... popeye!

Truly I cannot at how many symptoms there are in the tank, and of course this is another classic symptom of fishTB.

I've emailed to vet to deliver the 2 obviously sick fish this week. Apparently due to the size of the pencils they can only test 1 fish, the price she quoted before (£115 + delivery) was for fish 2cm and smaller, and it's £220 to test 3 pencils as they need an extra slide. I've said let's just test one, and I will provide 2 good fish for them just in case they fit.



Hufsa said:


> JBL Spirohexol Plus 250 (what a mouthful) seems to be discontinued by JBL. I found the ingredients which are;
> 
> 
> 
> I can only find links for this to european websites :/
> 
> What strange obscure medications
> I will continue looking!


Ahh I did think that, I'll have a look for other meds then. I did see some EshaHexamita to try, but I think it doesn't trrat for all the types of flagellates that those discontinued ones do.


----------



## Hufsa

shangman said:


> Apprently due to the size of the pencils they can only test 1 fish, the price she quoted before (£115 + delivery) was for fish 2cm and smaller, and it's £220 to test 3 pencils as they need an extra slide.


Oh my word 😵

In addition to esha hexamita there is also "sera med Professional Flagellol" which contains 5-Nitro-1,3-thiazol-2-ylazane, ascorbic acid palmitate, menadione sodium bisulfite.
Do you have sera medication in GB?

Maybe you can tell the vet youre having trouble finding the two first medications and ask her to check if either of these will do the trick?


----------



## mort

I need to catch up with this thread more regularly.  I'm really sorry you are having such a horrible time of it lately and really pleased the lovely ukaps community have stepped up for you.  

From what I have read and conversations I've had with others, tb is supposed (at least confirmed cases) to follow the path that your vet has outlined, ie a long time period of slow deterioration. The problem is fish can be so annoying and fit multiple diseases at the same time, so luck is always the most valuable thing with any treatment.

I've done skin scrapings on koi but not small fish. The trouble is identifying what you are seeing, unless you know an expert. It can be really really hard to 100% Id anything unfortunately so you still might be down to your "hit it with everything" solution. Popeye, the new symptom is just another sign that something bacterial is at least happening but it's probably a secondary infection.

I've not watched this video before but humble fish is a disease god in the marine world and if he thinks it's helpful it probably is. It's gonna be tricky with a small wriggly fish though, so recently deceased might be easier.









						Taking a skin scrape
					

BIG THANKS to Dr. Charlie Gregory for providing this information. His website can be found here: https://www.aquaveterinarian.com    There are some good wet mounts (and other disease info) here: https://www.merckvetmanual.com/exotic-and-laboratory-animals/aquarium-fishes




					www.ultimatereef.net
				




I'll try and stay more updated and keep my fingers crossed for you.


----------



## shangman

Hufsa said:


> Oh my word 😵
> 
> In addition to esha hexamita there is also "sera med Professional Flagellol" which contains 5-Nitro-1,3-thiazol-2-ylazane, ascorbic acid palmitate, menadione sodium bisulfite.
> Do you have sera medication in GB?
> 
> Maybe you can tell the vet youre having trouble finding the two first medications and ask her to check if either of these will do the trick?


Thank you Hufsa, it looks like this one is available. ♥️ I will try it!!

I don't know why this new symptom on another pencilfish had got to me but just having another cry about it all. It just chips away. I feel like destroying everything is inevitable and it makes me so sad. I know when I look in the tank that I will find something grim, but every time I find a new sick fish it's still a shock somehow.  I spent all my time with the tank obsessing about what wasn't perfect yet and thinking about how to change it and only seeing the flaws, and not even seeing how beautiful it is and always has been. 

My dad saw me sad about it and just got annoyed that I'm upset about a fish tank and thinks I need to get over it and I'm just upsetting myself for no reason. I guess that is a logical thing to feel but idk. He has a tank but he's not a fish person I guess, he doesn't see that invisible but real emotional connection.


----------



## John q

shangman said:


> My dad saw me sad about it and just got annoyed that I'm upset about a fish tank and thinks I need to get over it and I'm just upsetting myself for no reason. I guess that is a logical thing to feel but idk


Well in your dad's eyes you're the important one, not the fish tank. I think I'd say the same thing to my daughter. 

Thing is mate, you've done everything at your disposal to try and fix the issue. So whilst this is undoubtedly sad I scence a small part of you is apportioning blame to yourself, if that's the case then I think you are being unfair. 

Seems to me you've gone out of your way to provide a perfect environment for these fish, if you're feeling down then perhaps you need to remind yourself of that. 

Things will get better 👍


----------



## MirandaB

Damn Discus Studio are sold out of Octocil 
If you can't get the Sera one I'll look and see how much Octocil I have left @shangman.
I do agree with the vet in that Myco is likely to be lurking in pretty much every tank but don't agree that it kills over months/year,I think that's dependant on individual fishes immunity.


----------



## The Miniaturist

You get upset because you chose the fish to keep in your glass box but they're not 'just fish' and the glass box was the most perfect world you could make for them. Blaming yourself is natural, you feel responsible but this kind of thing could happen to anyone.
You're doing the best you can. 😺


----------



## Hufsa

Hmmm.. now this might be the stupidest thought ever had, but what if both the fish people you talked to AND the vet are right..?
If hole in the head disease weakens the fishes immune system, is it possible that all sorts of stuff creeping around the tank, like Mycobacterium, are finishing the fish off? 
It could explain why they have a freaking misery rainbow of disease symptoms?


----------



## shangman

John q said:


> Well in your dad's eyes you're the important one, not the fish tank. I think I'd say the same thing to my daughter.
> 
> Thing is mate, you've done everything at your disposal to try and fix the issue. So whilst this is undoubtedly sad I scence a small part of you is apportioning blame to yourself, if that's the case then I think you are being unfair.
> 
> Seems to me you've gone out of your way to provide a perfect environment for these fish, if you're feeling down then perhaps you need to remind yourself of that.
> 
> Things will get better 👍


I feel better already ❤️ just seem to not be able to stop beating myself with a stick about this every now and again and needed to complain somewhere. Mostly things are ok and I'm not too upset about it. It's also the frustration from job hunt madness! Something that's still for everyone I think lol. Gives me entirely too much time to think about fish too really. I did do my absolute best, I guess I should just consider it bad luck.

You are right about my dad too I think ❤️ I will try his way of thinking about it maybe then, he calls it the "gardeners way", that every plant failure in the garden is not a disappointment to be obsessed about, but an opportunity to try something else that'll be just as good or better. I have been thinking this way about the plants already, but also maybe the whole thing.


MirandaB said:


> Damn Discus Studio are sold out of Octocil
> If you can't get the Sera one I'll look and see how much Octocil I have left @shangman.
> I do agree with the vet in that Myco is likely to be lurking in pretty much every tank but don't agree that it kills over months/year,I think that's dependant on individual fishes immunity.


Thank you! I'll be trying to order some tonight, it looks available in a few places though so should be good.

That's what confused me about what she said, I've read about a few people who had it confirmed and they said it could be faster. I guess will see soon if it is or not!


The Miniaturist said:


> You get upset because you chose the fish to keep in your glass box but they're not 'just fish' and the glass box was the most perfect world you could make for them. Blaming yourself is natural, you feel responsible but this kind of thing could happen to anyone.
> You're doing the best you can. 😺


❤️❤️❤️ This is is really!! The perfect world of not meant to have terrible diseases!! They're bloody inescapable as much as we try. I need to remember not to feel so guilty about it. I will have to find another type of fish paradise to create.


----------



## Wookii

shangman said:


> the price she quoted before (£115 + delivery) was for fish 2cm and smaller


Wait, what?? Ask your vet which species of fish she usually sends off for a test that are under 2cm?


shangman said:


> I feel better already ❤️ just seem to not be able to stop beating myself with a stick about this every now and again



It’s only natural for those of us who have a strong sense of a duty of care to the animals we keep. It’s not an approach shared by everyone, some people don’t seem to give a monkeys about their fish, some swap them out every time they rescape for little apparent reason beyond aesthetics, with seemingly no emotional attachment. Different folks, different strokes guess.

When you do have that strong sense of a duty of care though, the loss of a single fish is upsetting, so a catastrophe like you’re experiencing is obviously going to be devastating.

As John says though, you are doing everything you physically can to address the cause, which is all you can do.


----------



## MirandaB

@shangman does the vet specialise in aquatics or is she more the usual small animals?


----------



## MirandaB

Wookii said:


> In my ignorance, I have to admit that 'flagellates' was a new term to me so I had to 'Google-research' it! Would a praziquantel based treatment such as Flukesolve deal with those as well, or conversely does the Octocil treat flukes and tape worms also, or would you need to use all three (NDX, Flukesolve, Octocil) to cover all bases?


Apologies for seeing this and forgetting to reply @Wookii.....there is a paper which suggests Prazi might kill flagellates but I don't think there's any concrete evidence and I don't think Octocil will kill intestinal worms.
I've just found the combo of NDX and then Octocil very effective at treating "skinny loach" disease whilst still being well tolerated.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


MirandaB said:


> and I don't think Octocil will kill intestinal worms.


I haven't got any useful advice to offer, but when I had a similar grisly experience it turned out to <"be _Camallanus_ (an intestinal nematode)"> and I treated it eventually with levamisole HCl, bought as <"Harka Verm"> for cage birds.

I've had both "White-spot" and "Velvet" in the past, but the only other really  strange thing  my fish have had were <"thyroid tumours">, and it took me a long time (and a number of deaths) before I found out what caused it. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## MirandaB

Camallanus are horrible things and a nightmare to have in a planted tank...thankfully I've never had to deal with it but it was enough seeing others with it to make me doubly sure I never had to and I used to use Harka Verm before NDX came out.


----------



## shangman

Hufsa said:


> Hmmm.. now this might be the stupidest thought ever had, but what if both the fish people you talked to AND the vet are right..?
> If hole in the head disease weakens the fishes immune system, is it possible that all sorts of stuff creeping around the tank, like Mycobacterium, are finishing the fish off?
> It could explain why they have a freaking misery rainbow of disease symptoms?


I think this is definitely possible, but maybe  the other way round. They all have TB, and TB + stress of new tank + sensitive fish makes them susceptable to anything else lurking in the tank (apparently almost all the diseases are lurking in almost all tanks all the time) = bad times. But I mean, it's a lot of different symptoms!! It's practically comical at this point that every time I look in the tank what I find is not just awful, but different! Just feels bizarre.



mort said:


> I need to catch up with this thread more regularly.  I'm really sorry you are having such a horrible time of it lately and really pleased the lovely ukaps community have stepped up for you.
> 
> From what I have read and conversations I've had with others, tb is supposed (at least confirmed cases) to follow the path that your vet has outlined, ie a long time period of slow deterioration. The problem is fish can be so annoying and fit multiple diseases at the same time, so luck is always the most valuable thing with any treatment.
> 
> I've done skin scrapings on koi but not small fish. The trouble is identifying what you are seeing, unless you know an expert. It can be really really hard to 100% Id anything unfortunately so you still might be down to your "hit it with everything" solution. Popeye, the new symptom is just another sign that something bacterial is at least happening but it's probably a secondary infection.
> 
> I've not watched this video before but humble fish is a disease god in the marine world and if he thinks it's helpful it probably is. It's gonna be tricky with a small wriggly fish though, so recently deceased might be easier.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Taking a skin scrape
> 
> 
> BIG THANKS to Dr. Charlie Gregory for providing this information. His website can be found here: https://www.aquaveterinarian.com    There are some good wet mounts (and other disease info) here: https://www.merckvetmanual.com/exotic-and-laboratory-animals/aquarium-fishes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ultimatereef.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll try and stay more updated and keep my fingers crossed for you.


This is all very useful and interesting to know thank you Mort!!!

That is something I've noticed when reading about all the current diseases, it seems that symptoms can overlap so easily, it's hard to know what is one and not the other. I have a complete scattershot of symptoms and species dead it's just bamboozling.

When the vet said I could do it myself I was quite surprised ! It's an interesting thing to try, I think you are right about very freshly killed, it does sound a bit mad any other way. Will see if anything is obvious or if there are any kind experts somewhere to advise. Will get a look at that video asap.



Wookii said:


> Wait, what?? Ask your vet which species of fish she usually sends off for a test that are under 2cm?
> 
> It’s only natural for those of us who have a strong sense of a duty of care to the animals we keep. It’s not an approach shared by everyone, some people don’t seem to give a monkeys about their fish, some swap them out every time they rescape for little apparent reason beyond aesthetics, with seemingly no emotional attachment. Different folks, different strokes guess.
> 
> When you do have that strong sense of a duty of care though, the loss of a single fish is upsetting, so a catastrophe like you’re experiencing is obviously going to be devastating.
> 
> As John says though, you are doing everything you physically can to address the cause, which is all you can do.


I did tell her all the affected fish are small, I guess I consider small to be like 5cm and below and hers is much smaller!

You described it perfectly, it does feel like a duty. I feel honour bound to do my best for them. Like Knights for the royal tank. I always intended to keep this tank for a long time, and I think I will still try stick to that before giving up. I will put down the pencils soon but not the rest of the fish . I need more evidence that they will all go. No apistos sick yet, only 1 pygmy of 20. It is not full catastrophe yet, even if it may be coming. If it is TB part of me just wanted to start from scratch very soon, but I think a bigger part of me wants to see how the rest of my fish do, if there wasn't the pencils the deaths would definitely be slower. Maybe some will never succumb and live good lives, I will wait and see. I think just do every thing I can before I have to start again.



MirandaB said:


> @shangman does the vet specialise in aquatics or is she more the usual small animals?


She is a proper specialist fish vet. Maybe I am casting too many aspersions cos I'm too convinced by the fishTB, of she is right then it's much more likely to be treatable which would be fantastic.



MirandaB said:


> Apologies for seeing this and forgetting to reply @Wookii.....there is a paper which suggests Prazi might kill flagellates but I don't think there's any concrete evidence and I don't think Octocil will kill intestinal worms.
> I've just found the combo of NDX and then Octocil very effective at treating "skinny loach" disease whilst still being well tolerated.


I've just ordered the Sera stuff and have the NDX coming on Thursday. Will hit it with all the things!



dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I haven't got any useful advice to offer, but when I had a similar grisly experience it turned out to <"be _Camallanus_ (an intestinal nematode)"> and I treated it eventually with levamisole HCl, bought as <"Harka Verm"> for cage birds.
> 
> I've had both "White-spot" and "Velvet" in the past, but the only other really  strange thing  my fish have had were <"thyroid tumours">, and it took me a long time (and a number of deaths) before I found out what caused it.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Aha!  Yours is the second story about grizzly symptoms with a camallanus worm, so def worth a try. Well the NDX will go in on Thursday so we'll see what happens.


----------



## Joel S

Just catching up with all this during some teeth-grindingly annoying insomnia. Can only offer sympathy. I tried keeping discus when I was about 17 in the late 90s and I had an obsessive and heartbreaking time with various mystery ailments. Then the heater stuck on while I was away for the weekend and solved all the problems at once.

In recent years I’ve only had nano tanks and I think have lost fish for various reasons, usually chalked up to the ebb and flow of enthusiasm for maintenance, but the low stocking levels mean it doesn’t amount to feeling catastrophic (and I may have developed something more similar to your dad’s attitude over the years). I’m pretty sad that my yellow clown goby in my saltwater tank recently doesn’t seem to be getting enough food..,

I hope things will look up!


----------



## shangman

Looked in the tank this morning and discovered my female apisto has brought out a group of babies for the first time in months, it seems my apistos are getting alone better again after qutie a few arguements. I had worried my female was looking thin before, but I think this is a good sign. I think it helped that I added a few seedpods 2 weeks ago, when there were no seedpods in the tank she had to make nests in wood caves and it didn't seem to work well and she was much more aggressive. It's another reminder to value the beauty in the tank as it is, they're still living their lives in there! This week I will get out the camera and take some photos, I haven't since all this stuff started and I think it's still nice to record how the tank is looking.

Also to record my dosing: the past 3 days I've been (slightly over)dosing EshaExit & Esha2000 as the vet suggested - she thinks essentially I should try everything I can to kill any/all parasites and infections in the tank possible, in the hope that it is a treatable problem. I've also bought some EshaOptima today which she suggested works for helping fish in the tank fight illness. Later this week some EshaNDX and Sera Med Flagellol will arrive which I will dose (after a big waterchnage), as well as FlukeSolve to attack any worms, flukes and flagillates, I think at least 2 of these need to be dosed twice over 2 weeks, so will see in a few weeks if it's really helped. I think that's pretty much all I can do in terms of treatments for the tank!

I'm bringing 2 pencilfish with symptoms to the vet today to be tested. I've decided I will also euthanise the rest of my pencilfish too, it's just too depressing watching them die one by one, and it's not fair to them to let them develop all these awful problems. There are about 7 left now. Other fish have been dying, but at a much slower rate, so I think a watch wait and see approach to them will be good, along with discovering what the vet finds out.



Joel S said:


> Just catching up with all this during some teeth-grindingly annoying insomnia. Can only offer sympathy. I tried keeping discus when I was about 17 in the late 90s and I had an obsessive and heartbreaking time with various mystery ailments. Then the heater stuck on while I was away for the weekend and solved all the problems at once.
> 
> In recent years I’ve only had nano tanks and I think have lost fish for various reasons, usually chalked up to the ebb and flow of enthusiasm for maintenance, but the low stocking levels mean it doesn’t amount to feeling catastrophic (and I may have developed something more similar to your dad’s attitude over the years). I’m pretty sad that my yellow clown goby in my saltwater tank recently doesn’t seem to be getting enough food..,
> 
> I hope things will look up!


Thanks Joel  I have noticed in my research that all the horrible diseases seem to afflict discus, it must be awful for that to happen, especially when they are their setups are so expensive and labour intensive! I have lost fish before too, and it's been sad but I didn't consider it a threat to everything like it is this time. Fingers crossed things will look up, I'm feeling much better today and ready to fight on again. And I hope your yellow goby eats more soon!


----------



## The Miniaturist

When I read your first half dozen words my heart sank but carrying on there was good news at last!
Unpleasant as it is, euthanasing the remaining pencil fish is probably for the best. As they seem to be the worst affected, knowing you have removed them all at least means none can die under the leaf litter & potentially cause more issues.
Fingers crossed here too that all the medications & UV steriliser enable you to get on top of things.🤞🏻Having some more clear answers from the vet will help you make further decisions.
As an aside, I've just replaced the air driven filter with a tiny power filter in my 25l nano & the pygmy corys are all out playing in the flow, you can almost hear them giggling with the fun of it all!


----------



## shangman

Oh my goodness guys... Already got some results. I have in the fish to the vet just 20 mins ago, and she decided to just do a scape. She found a big infestation of TRICHODINA parasite!!! 








Interestingly this parasite should have been killed by the EshaExit I've been dosing, so she thinks this one I've got is resistant to that. Might be hard to kill, but damnit, we'll try!!! 

Now off to do loads of RESEARCH

She said we could not do the histopathy test as well now we've seen this, but I said let's do it anyway and get a full picture, in case we see anything else on top.


----------



## MirandaB

I think you've been wise to go for the histopathy test because I don't think Trichodina is the root cause of what's going on but at least it's a start


----------



## shangman

MirandaB said:


> I think you've been wise to go for the histopathy test because I don't think Trichodina is the root cause of what's going on but at least it's a start


Yes reading up on it now it sounds like this is something that might just be taking advantage of already sick fish, I can't see anything online that it would/could cause all the problems we've seen so far.

Either way, somehow it feels comforting to know we're getting to the bottom of things a bit more. Time to discover the invisible world living in my tank! Apparently I should get back results from the test mid/late next week. 



The Miniaturist said:


> When I read your first half dozen words my heart sank but carrying on there was good news at last!
> Unpleasant as it is, euthanasing the remaining pencil fish is probably for the best. As they seem to be the worst affected, knowing you have removed them all at least means none can die under the leaf litter & potentially cause more issues.
> Fingers crossed here too that all the medications & UV steriliser enable you to get on top of things.🤞🏻Having some more clear answers from the vet will help you make further decisions.
> As an aside, I've just replaced the air driven filter with a tiny power filter in my 25l nano & the pygmy corys are all out playing in the flow, you can almost hear them giggling with the fun of it all!


Whoops! I should've worded it more positively from the start. It is nice to see something lovely in the tank again, probably all the babies will be eaten as usual but it shows life goes on. 

I am feeling more hopeful now that with the vet and the right meds we can get somewhere. I guess we will see next week! This may still end up dad, but it is really good to learn about it and actually know. 

Pygmy cories are so lovely!! If you have the chance, definitely keep a bigger group in a big tank, they're somehow even more enchanting like that.


----------



## Konsa

Hi
Following this thread and hope you will get to the bottom of it and resolve it soon. 
Just my 2 cents.
During my latest ich  attack on my newly purchased SAP Puffers (They seem to get it almost 100% when you buy (move) them)that took absolutely ages to sort out and the real game changer was using Levamisole medicated food in addition to the Esha Treatment. Not 100% sure if correct but Levamisole apart from being a worm treatment is said to have immune system boosting properties that will help fish to fight off any parasitic infestation.I was treating the puffers for over  a month with high temps and saw little effect on the parasites(they were absolutely covered in white spots)before starting with medicated food. Coincidence or not shortly after they started clearing. 
Regards Konstantin


----------



## shangman

Konsa said:


> Hi
> Following this thread and hope you will get to the bottom of it and resolve it soon.
> Just my 2 cents.
> During my latest ich  attack on my newly purchased SAP Puffers (They seem to get it almost 100% when you buy (move) them)that took absolutely ages to sort out and the real game changer was using Levamisole medicated food in addition to the Esha Treatment. Not 100% sure if correct but Levamisole apart from being a worm treatment is said to have immune system boosting properties that will help fish to fight off any parasitic infestation.I was treating the puffers for over  a month with high temps and saw little effect on the parasites(they were absolutely covered in white spots)before starting with medicated food. Coincidence or not shortly after they started clearing.
> Regards Konstantin


A few other people I've been chatting to about the problems on Instagram have suggested medicating the food as a more effective way to treat fish, as well as mixing garlic in with the food! I have read that Tricodina hate garlic and that's a good way to treat them. My NDX should be coming today, I will mix it in with some live food in water and leave them for a few hours, or maybe mixed with some defrosted frozen an hour or two and try that. Thankyou for the suggestion, it's definitely something I'll try.


----------



## Konsa

Hi @shangman 
For good quality food with garlic  content I can recommend "New Life Spectrum Thera +A"  
It comes in granules from 0.5mm upwards.Im not sure if they do flakes tbh but may do.
Those foods are really well balanced and very good quality. 
As for medicating food.Medicating frozen foods works but freeze dried and granulated foods will hold medication better so if your fish are not refusing dry foods I will have a go with that first. Maybe if can find somewhere in UK get some " Seachem Focus "to try to help bind the meds to the food more strongly.Its an useful product whem medicating food and dealing with internal issues. Other options are using gelatine and  Agar agar power as binder.
Regards Konstantin


----------



## shangman

Konsa said:


> Hi @shangman
> For good quality food with garlic  content I can recommend "New Life Spectrum Thera +A"
> It comes in granules from 0.5mm upwards.Im not sure if they do flakes tbh but may do.
> Those foods are really well balanced and very good quality.
> As for medicating food.Medicating frozen foods works but freeze dried and granulated foods will hold medication better so if your fish are not refusing dry foods I will have a go with that first. Maybe if can find somewhere in UK get some " Seachem Focus "to try to help bind the meds to the food more strongly.Its an useful product whem medicating food and dealing with internal issues. Other options are using gelatine and  Agar agar power as binder.
> Regards Konstantin


Excellent! Have ordered some of the food, that makes life much easier. Thanks very much for that rec


----------



## shangman

I euthanised the rest of the pencilfish on Thursday, there were 7 left in the end, so actually I don't think any did mysteriously die in the tank. They were very easy to catch as they were so greedy that whenever they saw me they swam straight to the front in case of food. Lovely fish who I will definitely keep again at some point. The tank is much quieter without them. 2 of them already looked like they were getting too thin so I think it was the right decision, I don't think I could've saved them.

A downside is all my cardinals have gone to hide in the back forever again. I wish my schooling fish were less shy. While watching the tank today I also saw 5 baby kuhlis lurking in the shadows, so I think they are all ok too. I have been thinking if the tank and fish can be saved, I might do a slight rescape anyway so I can take all of the kuhlis out, cos I truly never see them. Then I would replace the soil, replace the rest of the rocks with jade stone and add some more plants in various places. I think a big reason for my soil plants fail is that the kuhlis dig them up, so only the biggest plants establish.

Should get back vet results later this week, will let you all know about it when I find out.

ALSO I was interviewed for the Rumblefish podcast, so you can go and listen to that on whatever your favoured podcast app is, it'll be under the name "Rosehipscapes"


----------



## shangman

Well gang, sad news. I got the results back from the vet and it is confirmed mycobacteria/fishTB, the pencils were riddled with granulomas. 

I will get a full report later today or tomorrow which I will post so we can see the bigger picture. One of those times where it turns out I was right all along, but I really wish I wasn't.


----------



## Hufsa

Oh no  Im so sorry to hear that..
What does this entail for the tank, does everything have to be sterilized? I must admit I don't know if there are any treatments that can be done? I assume its pretty bad news for the fish? Could the plants at least be saved somehow, sterilized?

Im sending you the biggest hug from Norway 💓


----------



## The Miniaturist

I'm so sorry, I really was hoping it would turn out to be something more treatable, you've had so many losses already. 😢💔


----------



## MirandaB

shangman said:


> Well gang, sad news. I got the results back from the vet and it is confirmed mycobacteria/fishTB, the pencils were riddled with granulomas.
> 
> I will get a full report later today or tomorrow which I will post so we can see the bigger picture. One of those times where it turns out I was right all along, but I really wish I wasn't.


So sorry to hear that Rosie,I feared it would be the case 
It doesn't mean you have to destroy everything in the tank unless you feel you wish to,you can manage it as you already have been doing.


----------



## plantnoobdude

https://dianawalstad.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/mb__2017c.pdf
		


not sure if  you've seen this yet, but it is THE article when it comes to fish TB from what i can tell.


----------



## John q

shangman said:


> Well gang, sad news.


But news no less. You know what needs to be done. Don't envey that decision mate.


----------



## KirstyF

Oh hon. That is really tough news…..and a tough call figuring out what you do next.

It is possible that some of the existing fish may survive the outbreak and you could run the tank (carefully) with reduced population until nature takes it course….but ultimately this could turn out to be a long road of euthanasia as fish get poorly…..or you could make the difficult decision to shut down, cull and start fresh. 

Whatever you decide, I’m sure the folks here will support you and help wherever we can. None of us would want to be in your spot. 

So sorry. Big hugs. 🙁


----------



## Karmicnull

Gutted for you. It was a vetinary investment where none of us wanted this result.  Cold comfort I feel, but we are all by your side in this.


----------



## shangman

Thank you guys ♥️ Christ it's just all very bloody grim isn't it. For goodness sake!!!! What a doozy.

I am really glad we did the test and confirmed it, I was wondering for a while if I was crazy thinking this way the fish TB. It makes things a much clearer, if not easier.

Reading up again, most people just destroy everything living in the tank and start again after thoroughly cleaning the equipment. I think I will do this eventually, it pains me to say. The thing that grosses me out is that I could catch the fish TB myself, so basically I should never put my hands in the tank again (need 0 scratches or cuts and I have a naughty cat),  without giant long gloves. It feels risky.

On the other hand, I have the UV which should kill it from the water and keep the levels down. Diana Walstad said that this basically cured her tanks of it. The thing I worry about is that I think -maybe- quite a few of the fish already have it in a subtle way, it's hard to explain but I feel some fish don't quite look right, including my female apisto and quite a few tetras, and my pygmies are subdued too. I can't tell if I'm imagining it but fish seem to frolick less. 

I think I will wait a while to see if more fish succumb or if it dies down. I'm not sure though really in just throwing out ideas to delay the inevitable. I don't want to chuck it, I feel like it had a lot more to develop into but this is going to make things much more complicated. It feels tainted. I don't know how long I can hold out and how long the fish will, I don't want them to suffer. The balance between suffering and leading good lives in the tank is still unclear to me, I guess we will wait and see. 

It is quite devestating, to spite this sadness I'm determined to make something completely fabulous next, whatever it ends up being.


----------



## seedoubleyou

Sorry to hear you’re  going through the ringer at the minute, it makes it more incredible the help you’ve given me with my tank.

You mentioned UV, don’t solely rely on this as a method as it’s such a grey topic, by that I mean there’s so many variables, starting with understanding how UV works.
UV won’t kill anything, it sterilises, meaning the cells can’t spread.
Then flow rates play a huge part. Slow turn over is best for fighting disease as it gives the cells more time in contact with the light.
I’d also recommend changing your bulb if you can, this will give the unit maximum effectiveness.
Apologies if I’m teaching you to suck eggs, I know a large portion of people think UV can just be bought and switched on and that’s all there is too it.


----------



## shangman

seedoubleyou said:


> Sorry to hear you’re  going through the ringer at the minute, it makes it more incredible the help you’ve given me with my tank.
> 
> You mentioned UV, don’t solely rely on this as a method as it’s such a grey topic, by that I mean there’s so many variables, starting with understanding how UV works.
> UV won’t kill anything, it sterilises, meaning the cells can’t spread.
> Then flow rates play a huge part. Slow turn over is best for fighting disease as it gives the cells more time in contact with the light.
> I’d also recommend changing your bulb if you can, this will give the unit maximum effectiveness.
> Apologies if I’m teaching you to suck eggs, I know a large portion of people think UV can just be bought and switched on and that’s all there is too it.


Aw it's ok, it's nice to imagine beautiful new tanks right now! 

I have done my research and bought a powerful UV steriliser - the TMC vecton 600 which is for a tank double my size, and for double the flow - as a hightech tank I was worried about flow too so just went with something as powerful as possible that would fit in the cabinet, and attached it to my filter which has a lot of media in and so is slower. I know it doesn't kill, but it does stpo it breeding and spreading so eventually the population is hit hard. For Diana Walstad she said it "cured" her tank. It is new too so no need for a bulb change yet, before this problem I never knew an UV at all tbh. I also bought a powerful one in case all these fish were doomed, so I could potentially convert the tank to marine/macroalgae, but we'll see about that it was 99% for the TB. Maybe we'll swap and you'll give me marine tips and I'll give you freshwater ones! 


Waking up this morning and I just feel like.. idk what to do you guys. The idea of just killing everything is so grim, I don't think I can do that yet. But the ideaa of a new beautiful tank is tempting though to leave this sadness behind. I feel a big urge to do SOMETHING, idk maybe I will suck out all the substrate and replace with sand to help get rid of a lot of the tricodina and MB that's around there. Just fill with root tabs and see how that goes maybe. 

Tell me what you guys would do, I need ideas!! You can tell me to euthanise, I am interested to know what you all would do in this situation.


----------



## Regent

Hi Rosie,
I've just been catching up on your journal, I'm so sorry to hear about everything that has gone on, what an absolutely terrible time you've had.
Like you, I have worried about fish TB in the past as fish gradually die from nonspecific symptoms.  I have just never had it confirmed. I'm currently running a plant only tank so it's less of an issue!

UV will denature the DNA/RNA in the cells that pass by the light in effect killing the TB provided the exposure time is long enough.

However, between Diana's mycobactum document and this aquaculture document, I feel like UV may beg some more exploration.  I certainly need to do some more reading.
It sounds very much like MB is endemic in ornamental fish culture, pet stores, and commercial aquaculture (even in fresh watersupply owing to its chlorine resistance).
It makes me wonder if running our tank water through UV sterilizers (at the correct flow rates) at least a couple of times a day might not be a very good prophylactic and it is likely better for fish than medications. This probably applies to all fish diseases especially as fish tend to actively shed disease before showing signs.  I wonder if a discussion on UV sterilizers might not be warranted in its own thread?


----------



## Regent

To answer your question as I was typing while you posted! I think I would immediately euthanase any obviously sick fish but I'd probably keep anything that looks ok for now.

Truly sterilizing a tank and filter will mean stripping it cleaning it and then running it with diluted chlorine bleach (we seal and fog areas in healthcare as well as using UV) for a period of time to get into every little crevice, but that would include nets, pipes, buckets the works and throwing away pretty much everything that is living or hard to clean like wood. Even then if there is any reservoir you've missed you will immediately reintroduce it at low levels or it could come in on the next fish that you buy...
Changing the substrate out and giving everything a good clean, filters pipes etc to try and get rid of as much biofilm as possible would be ideal but it will place huge stress on the fish which are already fighting MB, unless there is another tank they can go straight into?

I'm also wondering if twinstar reactors and or ozone may be of use?


----------



## seedoubleyou

@shangman let me know how you get on with the UV, I’m debating over the TMC one or the Eheim one as I like the fittings on it.

As for the fish, I’ve been there and had to euthanise using clove oil, it’s probably the best thing you can actually do for your fish now. Then claim yourself a fresh start.
Whichever you choose will be what’s best for you, just know that there’s no judgement if you decide to start  all over again.
I bet most of us would in a heartbeat.


----------



## Regent

Interesting review article on MB in fish Microorganisms 2020, 8(9), 1368

Did the vet tell you what strain of MB your fish had?


----------



## shangman

Regent said:


> Hi Rosie,
> I've just been catching up on your journal, I'm so sorry to hear about everything that has gone on, what an absolutely terrible time you've had.
> Like you, I have worried about fish TB in the past as fish gradually die from nonspecific symptoms.  I have just never had it confirmed. I'm currently running a plant only tank so it's less of an issue!
> 
> However, between Diana's mycobactum document and this aquaculture document, I feel like UV may beg some more exploration.  I certainly need to do some more reading.
> It sounds very much like MB is endemic in ornamental fish culture, pet stores, and commercial aquaculture (even in fresh watersupply owing to its chlorine resistance).
> It makes me wonder if running our tank water through UV sterilizers (at the correct flow rates) at least a couple of times a day might not be a very good prophylactic and it is likely better for fish than medications. This probably applies to all fish diseases especially as fish tend to actively shed disease before showing signs.  I wonder if a discussion on UV sterilizers might not be warranted in its own thread?



You know I have been puzzled about this too, that apparently it's everywhere but often doesn't affect anything. There are about 20 species of Mycobacterium, and I wonder if they often use the generic staining test which doesn't indicate which type it is, if it doesn't actually affect the fish with granulomas then maybe it is just one of the less harful kinds. My theory is that many of the less harmful ones are everywhere, and that the very harmful ones (which I have and which causes granulomas) are rarer, this disease has been so nasty it's impossible to ignore. The generic one that kills very slowly over months and years doesn't seem like as much of a problem for a tank than what my tank has caught which has just ravaged the fish, and also much less obvious too, I wonder if people would ever notice it, unless they didn't buy fish for many years and kept one population like Walstad did.

Thank you for that article, I'll have a read through that now. I'm currently running the UV from 8pm - 10am, so I can dose fertiliser and it doesn't chelate the iron before the plants can use it. When I researched into UV it did look like a good option, but also often was confusing too and talking in terms I don't quite understand (redox). I think a separate discussion would be good, I will also at some point make a thread that just goes through my experience with the FishTB for others who think they might have it in the future. Bit too sad about it to start it now though tbh. I think at the moment I just need to get over the shock and sadness of it before I can regroup in a few days and make a better decision. Every option seems exhausting right now.



Regent said:


> To answer your question as I was typing while you posted! I think I would immediately euthanase any obviously sick fish but I'd probably keep anything that looks ok for now.
> 
> Truly sterilizing a tank and filter will mean stripping it cleaning it and then running it with diluted chlorine bleach (we seal and fog areas in healthcare as well as using UV) for a period of time to get into every little crevice, but that would include nets, pipes, buckets the works and throwing away pretty much everything that is living or hard to clean like wood. Even then if there is any reservoir you've missed you will immediately reintroduce it at low levels or it could come in on the next fish that you buy...
> Changing the substrate out and giving everything a good clean, filters pipes etc to try and get rid of as much biofilm as possible would be ideal but it will place huge stress on the fish which are already fighting MB, unless there is another tank they can go straight into?
> 
> I'm also wondering if twinstar reactors and or ozone may be of use?


I have been euthanising fish as soon as they have a symptom, since I killed all the pencils last week I haven't noticed any obvious symptoms, but they often come on very quickly. Energy seems lower in the tank but that might be my imagination tbh

Sadly there isn't another tank for them to go into, all my other tanks are tiny, and also in the offchance they don't have the TB I don't want to introduce it. In my two nanos with fish, one (23L)  has ricefish where none have ever died but it's in the same room as my big <Nymphs Spring> tank and I'm sure I've swapped plants over before in the past few months, and the second (45L) has a betta and chili rasboras. In this tank the rasboras have gone from 12 to 7 over the past few months so I am suspicous, but the betta seems very healthy, and from what I've read FishTB really hurts bettas so maybe this tank has been spared idk. Maybe I should but I can't bear to destroy everything in every tank, so I will be buying all new buckets, pipes, cleaning equipment and work out a new regime to make things as safe as possible. I set up a third nano at Christmas with my dad that I haven't shared yet, for ricefish babies and crystal shrimps, I think that one should be safe as everything in it is new. I won't buy any new fish to these tanks though, and when the fish eventually die I will do a hard cleaning as you describe in every one, and I'm going to get all new buckets, pipes, cleaning equipment, etc.

I will eventually do the BIG CLEAN as you describe in the big tank, I guess the question is when. Do I wait and see what happens, try UV and other treatments, or cut my losses and start again? Or some hybrid idk. If I did a rescape/cleaning with all new sand at least the fish would just be in buckets for a few hours and could go back in without extra ammonia and stuff.

Not sure about the twinstar/ozone, I guess that's worth an investigation too, I've never been sure what it did to be honest!



seedoubleyou said:


> @shangman let me know how you get on with the UV, I’m debating over the TMC one or the Eheim one as I like the fittings on it.
> 
> As for the fish, I’ve been there and had to euthanise using clove oil, it’s probably the best thing you can actually do for your fish now. Then claim yourself a fresh start.
> Whichever you choose will be what’s best for you, just know that there’s no judgement if you decide to start  all over again.
> I bet most of us would in a heartbeat.


For installing the TMC was very easy, though it does stick out the back of my cabinet a bit as it's so large. You can't see it though. It also looks like it will be easy to clean. 

This is the thing also, is how many fish are suffering in the tank but I don't know? The pencilfish I gave to the vet were RIDDLED with granulomas, it is possible my fish have them and the obvious symptoms just aren't there yet. The most important thing is for my fish not to suffer. It's quite subjective though. 

You are right, I think it's such a grim thing to happen that there aren't really any right answers. I may not euthanise immediately, btu I think I will before the end of the year, and probably sooner if things take an obvious turn for the worst. Maybe very soon, I'm not sure yet tbh. I think if my apistos start to look bad then that's that. 


Regent said:


> Interesting review article on MB in fish Microorganisms 2020, 8(9), 1368
> 
> Did the vet tell you what strain of MB your fish had?


I'll read this one asap too!

I don't know the strain sadly. I'll just upload the sort PDF of results I got from the vet


----------



## shangman

It's just these 2 pages, and I've included a bigger version fo the photo too.


----------



## John q

shangman said:


> Reading up again, most people just destroy everything living in the tank and start again after thoroughly cleaning the equipment. I think I will do this eventually,


Its a tough call mate. Personally I'd run this as a closed system, euthanize the sickly fish as and when it seemed the leser of two evils and when all the critters have passed, which could be weeks or months, do a complete re start. 

Caveats to the above is your personal health. If you've any existing conditions that would weaken your immune system then the risks to yourself need pushing to the forefront. 
If your health is good and you practice sensible tank hygiene then I don't see why you couldn't manage this tank longterm. 

I suppose the question is Rosie do you need time to mourn, or would an instant clean break be best? Only you can answer that.


----------



## Regent

I really do feel for you. I don't think that there is an easy answer here.
It seems like there are some main disease-causing (rapidly fatal) strains and some that are present all the time in the environment and only strike if a fish is weakened or stressed.
I guess the better question is why one species of MB suddenly reproduces so aggressively. It's a shame the vets weren't able to tell you the exact type but I realise that there are cost implications to more tests. I also note ' Mycobactum are relatively common in aquarium fish' on the report. I genuinely suspect that many fish have MB granulomas.

In humans, granuloma formation is typically the chronic not acute form of TB, though it's one of the reasons it is so hard to treat.

I see no harm in giving everything a good clean, perhaps in stages and as John says run it as a closed system. Sadly I suspect unless there has been no cross over of substrate, filter media, nets etc the other tanks are quite likely infected.  
To give an idea of the lengths that you need to go to to truly remove it from a system see: Overview of a Disease Outbreak and Introduction of a Step-by-Step Protocol for the Eradication of Mycobacterium haemophilum in a Zebrafish System

Unless the shop that you got the fish from has bleached it's entire system I suspect that most of their fish will have some degree of infection.


----------



## Conort2

shangman said:


> You know I have been puzzled about this too, that apparently it's everywhere but often doesn't affect anything.


This is what I don’t get either, surely this must be in every aquarium shop around or nearly every one. Regardless of whether shops quarantine this will come in through water, may not show itself for months. It Has many symptoms that can be taken as other diseases so will be misdiagnosed.

It’s strange how every tank isn’t riddled with it.


----------



## Regent

Mycobacterium marinum infection in fish and man: epidemiology, pathophysiology and management; a review
Occurrence of Mycobacterium spp. in ornamental fish
Both of the above suggest around a 30-50% infection rate in ornamental fish which makes it hard to believe that most of us haven't exposed our tanks at some point and that all petshops likely have..
It kind of suggests to me that something at some point tips the balance to favour MB eg another infection. 

Identification Mycobacterium spp. in the Natural Water of Two Austrian Rivers
Present in most river samples it would seem


----------



## The Miniaturist

Hi Rosie,
I've read your posts, been for a walk & am back at my table, painting, looking at my two tanks but still I don't know what I would do or advise.
I'm about as far removed from a scientist as you can get but even I have wondered why this disease has devastated your tank, especially when shops buy from the same wholesalers, it should be everywhere.
If the remaining fish are looking fairly good then run it as a closed system but be prepared to euthanase everything should it deteriorate. Though this depends on how you are feeling, if you end up dreading what you'll find at lights on then your health becomes more important & a complete restart would probably be best.
Sorry for the ramble but whatever decision you choose to make you'll have plenty of support here. 😻


----------



## mort

I agree with John completely. If it was me I would give them a chance and watch them like a hawk. It's not an easy decision but I find generally we know when the time is right if we need to do something.


----------



## ScareCrow

Just caught up with this and want to say thank you for sharing everything in so much detail. There are loads of anecdotal reports out there but this does provide a good source of what to look for.

I've not had to deal with it personally but met a guy that had quite a bad time after he contracted it, so definitely put your own health first.

If it were me I'd stick with things as they are. If all fish succumb, how long can MB live without a host? If it's present in all water, how long does it take for numbers to reduce to a safe level when there's no host and you're running a UV? Just thinking that you should be able to save your scape and avoid stripping everything, while still ensuring the environment is safe to reintroduce fish if MB numbers can be reduced to background levels with normal water changes/UV sterilisation.

If things with your other fish stabilise as horrible as it sounds I guess it makes things a bit trickier as there will be a host so maybe wait for things to stabilise and then wait another 6 months. I'd imagine any ongoing or long term damage should show up in that time.

Just a thought that occured to me, have you checked your waterbutt(s) for any 'foreign' objects? I remember you had a slug die in one. I also use rainwater so not having ago here but wondering if something got into the waterbutt and that was the potential source of MB? Just trying to understand where it stemmed from.

Sorry for the lengthy ramble and asking more questions that I've provided answers/suggestions. 

All the best and hope things improve.


----------



## shangman

John q said:


> Its a tough call mate. Personally I'd run this as a closed system, euthanize the sickly fish as and when it seemed the leser of two evils and when all the critters have passed, which could be weeks or months, do a complete re start.
> 
> Caveats to the above is your personal health. If you've any existing conditions that would weaken your immune system then the risks to yourself need pushing to the forefront.
> If your health is good and you practice sensible tank hygiene then I don't see why you couldn't manage this tank longterm.
> 
> I suppose the question is Rosie do you need time to mourn, or would an instant clean break be best? Only you can answer that.


I am in good health, but my dad is a bit less so and he gets eczema on his hands which I think makes dealing with the tanks dodgier. We have got gloves for all the tanks coming today, but it's just so easy to put your hands in not thinking! He doesn't do anything to do with this tank, but I think we can assume it is in his one too as we shared buckets and pipes until recently (when I started reading about the TB, but the pencils had been in the tank almost 2 months by then).

I don't think I can bear to do an instant clean break, I think it would be too depressing seeing an empty tank for the weeks and months after. I will change the scape eventually because tbh this one is feeling quite tainted, but will wait for a few months and watch the fish for any decline/improvements while saving up and working out what that next scape could be, and if the fish seem well enough for them to live in it. I do have an idea for it, but I would need to wait for my friend who would help to be less busy too which will be in late May. If I've got to do this, I'm going to make something f*cking fabulous next to make it worth it. Even though this has been awful, it doesn't make me love the hobby less, or want to quit or anything, I've just recieved a particularly bad bit of luck. Such is life!!       






Regent said:


> I really do feel for you. I don't think that there is an easy answer here.
> It seems like there are some main disease-causing (rapidly fatal) strains and some that are present all the time in the environment and only strike if a fish is weakened or stressed.
> I guess the better question is why one species of MB suddenly reproduces so aggressively. It's a shame the vets weren't able to tell you the exact type but I realise that there are cost implications to more tests. I also note ' Mycobactum are relatively common in aquarium fish' on the report. I genuinely suspect that many fish have MB granulomas.
> 
> In humans, granuloma formation is typically the chronic not acute form of TB, though it's one of the reasons it is so hard to treat.
> 
> I see no harm in giving everything a good clean, perhaps in stages and as John says run it as a closed system. Sadly I suspect unless there has been no cross over of substrate, filter media, nets etc the other tanks are quite likely infected.
> To give an idea of the lengths that you need to go to to truly remove it from a system see: Overview of a Disease Outbreak and Introduction of a Step-by-Step Protocol for the Eradication of Mycobacterium haemophilum in a Zebrafish System
> 
> Unless the shop that you got the fish from has bleached it's entire system I suspect that most of their fish will have some degree of infection.


Thank you for another useful link!!

I think the closed system is the best way for now. I am wondering are the fish going to continue to die like before? Since I have killed the pencils no other fish have died which I think is a good sign. I think it is worth it to see if it progresses further or not for a while at least, and if they do then I know that euthanising is the course forward. TBH I'm mostly waiting to see if the apistos are gonna suffer from it, they were born and raised in my tanks and they are the ones I feel worst about. I also feel bad for the kuhli loaches, as they can live for 10 years, I suspect they are happily living in caves in the tank, even if I never see them. I was going to give them away one day but can't do that any more.

Personally I won't be going to the shop I bought the pencilfish from again, just in case. Though I still think it's impossible to really tell if they brought it in, it could be they caught it in my tank and were very swiftly affected. That quite a few fish of other species suffered from it as well in the past 2 months makes it even more confusing. It's all a big grey area, a very frustating disease. The pencilfish themselves never seemed stressed to me at all, they were my least shy fish up to the end. If anything they stresed out the other fish by being so bolshy!






Conort2 said:


> This is what I don’t get either, surely this must be in every aquarium shop around or nearly every one. Regardless of whether shops quarantine this will come in through water, may not show itself for months. It Has many symptoms that can be taken as other diseases so will be misdiagnosed.
> 
> It’s strange how every tank isn’t riddled with it.


This is what confuses me too. That if what is written about it is true, then presumably something I've done in the tank is causing it to "flare up"? If I did weird maintenance it would make more sense, but I don't think I do anything that isn't standard practice. This is why I go back to the pencils already having it and spreading it to my tank. I am reminded of @confusedman and his terrible luck with sick and dying fish, I wonder if it was the same thing.






The Miniaturist said:


> Hi Rosie,
> I've read your posts, been for a walk & am back at my table, painting, looking at my two tanks but still I don't know what I would do or advise.
> I'm about as far removed from a scientist as you can get but even I have wondered why this disease has devastated your tank, especially when shops buy from the same wholesalers, it should be everywhere.
> If the remaining fish are looking fairly good then run it as a closed system but be prepared to euthanase everything should it deteriorate. Though this depends on how you are feeling, if you end up dreading what you'll find at lights on then your health becomes more important & a complete restart would probably be best.
> Sorry for the ramble but whatever decision you choose to make you'll have plenty of support here. 😻


<3 Thank you. I think that is one of the puzzling things, my friends have bought fish from the same shop and not had any problems. One friend did buy some dicrossus there at the same time as me and one died of popeye (which is a symptom of TB), otherwise, nothing of note. I think you are right about the dread, I have felt that a lot in the past few weeks once I realised something was going on. I think I will wait to see if more die, and if they do then it will be time to stop because the slow dripdripdrip of suffering is just awful.

What do you paint? When I first read this comment yesterday I was doing some drawing for the first time in ages, now I can't be rearranging and trimming and fiddling with the tank every day I've got to do something else for now I suppose!






mort said:


> I agree with John completely. If it was me I would give them a chance and watch them like a hawk. It's not an easy decision but I find generally we know when the time is right if we need to do something.


This is pretty much the plan. It feels on a knife edge at the moment, I do feel like the fish seem more subdued generally now and I wonder if that is ill health or my imagination. Only time will tell! The pygmies seem ok though which is nice, what a fabulous fish they are. One day I will keep a fleet of 100 and it'll be beautiful.





ScareCrow said:


> Just caught up with this and want to say thank you for sharing everything in so much detail. There are loads of anecdotal reports out there but this does provide a good source of what to look for.
> 
> I've not had to deal with it personally but met a guy that had quite a bad time after he contracted it, so definitely put your own health first.
> 
> If it were me I'd stick with things as they are. If all fish succumb, how long can MB live without a host? If it's present in all water, how long does it take for numbers to reduce to a safe level when there's no host and you're running a UV? Just thinking that you should be able to save your scape and avoid stripping everything, while still ensuring the environment is safe to reintroduce fish if MB numbers can be reduced to background levels with normal water changes/UV sterilisation.
> 
> If things with your other fish stabilise as horrible as it sounds I guess it makes things a bit trickier as there will be a host so maybe wait for things to stabilise and then wait another 6 months. I'd imagine any ongoing or long term damage should show up in that time.
> 
> Just a thought that occured to me, have you checked your waterbutt(s) for any 'foreign' objects? I remember you had a slug die in one. I also use rainwater so not having ago here but wondering if something got into the waterbutt and that was the potential source of MB? Just trying to understand where it stemmed from.
> 
> Sorry for the lengthy ramble and asking more questions that I've provided answers/suggestions.
> 
> All the best and hope things improve.


Thank you. It feels like all I can really do is describe it, at least it might be useful to someone in the future.

I have heard it's really nasty to catch, I saw one guy who catually almost died from it which was very fun to read... the long pond gloves are coming today to hopefully avoid this stuff. The scary this is that I think I probably have put my hands in while the pencils were suffering and before I realised it was TB, and I have a cat who does like a little bite and scratch when playing. Apparently it can take a while to develop. Either way if I see any sign it'll be straight to the doctor for me ASAP. 

That is the question about the MB, from what I can tell it can just live perfectly happy in biofilm without a host. I am hopeful that the UV will really reduce levels so it's safer for me and the fish. I don't know that I will ever feel comfortabel introducing new fish to the tank though. To be honest this tank has not been without problems growing plants for me (it acts like a lowtech even with CO2 basically ffs), if the plants were all growing healthily before I would persevere but this has pushed it over the edge. Ultimately it doesn't seem like a stable environment longterm, it is very hard to reach quite a few areas for cleaning as well. Next time I'll keep that in mind more.

The rainwater is a real question mark, and I have wondered if that was the/a problem. I am not sure if I should continue using the rainwater in this big tank, it would be easier to do bigger and more frequent waterchanges if I just used tap, but also maybe that would stress the fish even more. The vet seems quite convinced that the pencils could have got sicker if they were raised in a higher PH water, and shocked to live in a lower pH in my tank. All of my fish are considered softwater fish though? Seems kinda against what I've learnt about pH and fish, but idk I'm not an expert. The only thing about this is that I do use rainwater in all my tanks, and I haven't had any ricefish or my betta suffer. I do have less chilli rasboras on the other hand, about 1/3 have disappeared in the past 6 months since I got them.


----------



## The Miniaturist

Sounds like a plan! 👍🏻
A slight rescape seems a good idea, if you can make maintenance more simple & less "up to your elbows" in tank water you stand a better chance of keeping on top of things like fish health without worrying about any scratches on your hands or arms. (Love 'em to bits but they can be little devils 😼) Hopefully you won't need to resort to the grim plan b.
I'm still smiling at a "fleet" of pygmy corys, it's a brilliant description!


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## Karmicnull

shangman said:


> the vet seems quite convinced that the pencils could have got sicker if they were raised in a higher PH water, and shocked to live in a lower pH in my tank.


This is an added bonus of having a quarantine tank - I had a couple of instances where fish who were fine in the quarantine tank for several weeks, then pegged it within a week of going into the destination tank.  Having read up on it, there's an added challenge of adapting to the local micro-organisms when fish move to a new tank.  I now use  quarantine time as an opportunity to gradually add water from the destination tank so that the fish get exposed to small volumes of the destination ecosystem / environment / bacteria, and then gradually build up over time.  You can also use that time to gradually switch from LFS water hardness to target water hardness.


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## Joel S

Are there inoculations you and your dad could look into? I only ask as I had an injury swimming off the back of the boat 3 yrs ago and I ended up in hospital and they were very quick with a variety of jabs against bacteria from the river (I think Thames based injuries are common round here, but mine was quite serious).


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## John q

I'd imagine her dad will have had the BCG jab many moons ago (one time shot), not sure about Rosie, she might have just missed out on the cut off point of having it. 

Thing is with this vaccine it was always controversial in regards to how effective it was, and it is widely accepted the vaccine offerd little protection against pulmonary tb.


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## Cait1

shangman said:


> That if what is written about it is true, then presumably something I've done in the tank is causing it to "flare up"?


I doubt it's anything you did. I think it's entirely plausible that the pencils were either exposed before they came to you and just took some time to become ill enough to show it, or they were more susceptible to whatever bacteria strains were already in your tank, leading to an explosion of infectious material that ultimately overwhelmed the immune systems of some of your previous fish that had more natural immunity to begin with.


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## shangman

I hadn't noticed any sick fish for a few days, but they have been acting very shy so it has been hard to get a great look. Tonight I saw a pygmy cory with a small white 3D lump on it's head, another new symptom of TB to me, but is on the list of classics. Annoyingly hard to see and catch as they're tiny and hide in the back & are very fast, will have to catch it tomorrow though. I also think my male apisto is acting oddly, but he seems afraid of the female so maybe she is "just" bullying him, she herself is thin I think though, we'll see.

Got some full arm-length pond gloves in, so yesterday I replaced the sand so it looks nicer now and hopefully helps get rid of some nasties living in/on it. The UV Steriliser is on for about 15 hours a day (mostly overnight). I'm going to add in a load of leaves now too as I removed them all a few weeks ago to get rid of biofilm with potential nasties) as I think that's partly why the fish are more shy. I'm going to add another one of those pretty palm flower stalks as well as a whole load of other leaves, give these fish the best home possible for now.



Karmicnull said:


> This is an added bonus of having a quarantine tank - I had a couple of instances where fish who were fine in the quarantine tank for several weeks, then pegged it within a week of going into the destination tank.  Having read up on it, there's an added challenge of adapting to the local micro-organisms when fish move to a new tank.  I now use  quarantine time as an opportunity to gradually add water from the destination tank so that the fish get exposed to small volumes of the destination ecosystem / environment / bacteria, and then gradually build up over time.  You can also use that time to gradually switch from LFS water hardness to target water hardness.



This is a good idea! It sounds like it would be much less stressful for the fish to get "normal" water after their car journey stress, do a really slow acclimation.



Joel S said:


> Are there inoculations you and your dad could look into? I only ask as I had an injury swimming off the back of the boat 3 yrs ago and I ended up in hospital and they were very quick with a variety of jabs against bacteria from the river (I think Thames based injuries are common round here, but mine was quite serious).


Cripes I haven't checked, I didn't see anything online about it yet though. Ugh just so grim to have to tbh!!



Cait1 said:


> I doubt it's anything you did. I think it's entirely plausible that the pencils were either exposed before they came to you and just took some time to become ill enough to show it, or they were more susceptible to whatever bacteria strains were already in your tank, leading to an explosion of infectious material that ultimately overwhelmed the immune systems of some of your previous fish that had more natural immunity to begin with.


I think you're right, those make sense. And of course makes it impossible to knew what source brought it in really, it's just unknowable. I guess it's just bad luck.


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## shangman

I was talking to my mum this evening about everything that has been going on in the tank and what this disease is, and her view was that for my health and the fish potential suffering it's better just to destroy everything asap, clean it out and replace it with something new like immediately. That it's hard, but better to have a clean break than drag it on, even if it could be useful to know the decline it's at best not enjoyable and actually deeply unpleasant, it feels contaminated as I can catch it and have to wear these bloody hazmat suit gloves to do maintenance. Every day, multiple times a day I look in the tank and check "are any of you dying of something horrible today???" and look for them all, and mostly the answer is no, but like... often the answer is yes and now it's after the pencils it's so depressing, my silly hope was maybe it would stop. And I don't think I'm imagining them being less active and more shy. They called it fish zombie disease and that is so right, not just in all the horrible symptoms that appear, but also in the hopelessness of it. I always hated zombie films for that feeling of complete giving up in the world and failure. In other posts on other forums when people got this in their tanks they have destroyed them, but not really explained their feeling behind why they did it and I thought I wouldn't do the same but idk. It's just turned something really joyful into something tragic.


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## The Miniaturist

I don't think it's silly, I would have hoped for some relief from the fish becoming sick after setting up the UV steriliser, euthanasing all the pencils and changing the sand and botanicals but it looks as though the infection is deeply embedded.
It's easier to give someone advice about what they should do than stand in front of your own tank & make the same decision after putting so much time & energy into it's creation. I know I would find it a real struggle.
Describing it as destroying the tank implies violence & you're not breaking it apart you're helping the fish pass without struggling & suffering.


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## Hufsa

Your mental and physical health is priority number one, and we stand behind you no matter which route you go for. The mental toll and added physical risk of a lengthy process is definitely a consideration


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## Laoshan

Hello @shangman,

You don’t know me at all but I have been reading along and I feel sorry your fish tank situation. Just had to react now to say that I really agree with your mum (yeah I know very creepy). I would never let a situation like this carry on. As you wrote it takes a toll mentally and definitely reduces the enjoyment of the hobby, to zero perhaps? Then there is a risk of cross-contaminating your other aquariums while this lasts, and a (probably very small?) risk of you or your family members getting infected and becoming ill.

Anyhow, don’t  take my words too seriously, there are more experienced advisors here. Take care!


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## mort

If you think it's time, it's time. You have no duty to others to draw things out in order to document it. It is perhaps best for both you and the fish to take that step now, with the full support of us here.

I've had to euthanise very special fish and it hurts but at least we are able to do the best for them when that time comes. We take on the responsibility of caring for them and sometimes that means ending any potential suffering.


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## shangman

If it wasn't for the catching it myself thing, I could much more easily continue and put up with it and fight it with more vigour.  Or if it was in a smaller, lowtech tank that I didn't need to do constant big waterchanges and maintenance on it almost daily. Though if I think about it, to be honest in a tank like that I would've taken it all down already, I think I have just been delaying the agony cos I'm attached. Last night I found my male apisto hiding vertically right in the back corner amongst some echinodorus leaves, he looked dead until I moved the leaves and he swam off. He didn't come and eat dinner. Plus the pygmy cory with this big white thing on it, not good signs.

Now I can see that fish are still suffering from it and not looking healthy as they should be, I think it is time. Just because I can't see all the symptoms overtly doesn't mean they aren't there. I do worry that they are already suffering. I don't want to need jabs or strong months-long antibiotics because of my hobby, even if it's a small chance, I've already had bad luck having it in the tank in the first place! Seems like not a risk worth taking. Every sick fish feels like it's just confirming the threat, just confirming the doom of it. I think it is time. Planning on doing it on Good Friday for symbolism or something idk. Then a few days of cleaning everything EXTREMELY thoroughly. I miss the fun and joy of the tank. Will be taking lots of photos this week and try and get it to look as nice as possible before taking it down.

Thank you guys for all your kind thoughts and well wishes and support, it has made this whole ordeal much less awful. Should I close this journal after this and start a new one with a new scape? Or carry on with this one? That seems sad to me too tbh.



The Miniaturist said:


> I don't think it's silly, I would have hoped for some relief from the fish becoming sick after setting up the UV steriliser, euthanasing all the pencils and changing the sand and botanicals but it looks as though the infection is deeply embedded.
> It's easier to give someone advice about what they should do than stand in front of your own tank & make the same decision after putting so much time & energy into it's creation. I know I would find it a real struggle.
> Describing it as destroying the tank implies violence & you're not breaking it apart you're helping the fish pass without struggling & suffering.


I know I could wait and maybe some fish would be ok, but it would be at the expense of many of the fish suffering. Getting the results back from the vet and seeing how absolutely riddled the pencils were, they must have been suffering for a while even if the obvious symptoms only appeared a day or two before testing. I know that I am so close that I can't see the whole situation tbh, I really value everyone's advice on it, I have noticed how many people would just start again. To take it down is sad but it has also been really beautiful and I have learnt so much from it, I'll take many ideas and lessons from it into future tanks. 



Hufsa said:


> Your mental and physical health is priority number one, and we stand behind you no matter which route you go for. The mental toll and added physical risk of a lengthy process is definitely a consideration


Big hugs Hufsa, thank you for being so lovely during all of this <3 It is just grim all the time. I miss the frolicking fish and experimentation with plants. And being able to shove my hand in and rearrange twigs. We will get back to it very soon though. 



Laoshan said:


> Hello @shangman,
> 
> You don’t know me at all but I have been reading along and I feel sorry your fish tank situation. Just had to react now to say that I really agree with your mum (yeah I know very creepy). I would never let a situation like this carry on. As you wrote it takes a toll mentally and definitely reduces the enjoyment of the hobby, to zero perhaps? Then there is a risk of cross-contaminating your other aquariums while this lasts, and a (probably very small?) risk of you or your family members getting infected and becoming ill.
> 
> Anyhow, don’t  take my words too seriously, there are more experienced advisors here. Take care!



I have seen you posting on UKAPS before  And not creepy to agree with my mum lol, she is right. Once she said it last night I knew it, it's a fair judgement. When it's laid out clearly as you have, it is obvious. And honestly, this whole ordeal really has removed the enjoyment. I've been furiously looking at other lovely tanks and imagining what I might do next so I can feel some excitement rather than dread, but it doesn't work that well. You guys do make me feel better, but I would rather be showing you fabulous things than endless stories about all the horrifying things my fish are suffering of. It just needs to be done.



mort said:


> If you think it's time, it's time. You have no duty to others to draw things out in order to document it. It is perhaps best for both you and the fish to take that step now, with the full support of us here.
> 
> I've had to euthanise very special fish and it hurts but at least we are able to do the best for them when that time comes. We take on the responsibility of caring for them and sometimes that means ending any potential suffering.


You're right as always Mort. It is unfortunately close to putting my cat down last month, it's not something I want to do but it is necessary to stop the suffering and give the final kindness we can to our creatures. Next time I'll do what I can to avoid this again, but it has sort of taught me that sometimes bad luck just gets you.


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## Karmicnull

I have to say I think you've been incredibly strong through this.  Full of admiration for how you're taking the learning and looking forward rather than being beaten down by the experience.  I hope I can manage to do the same if ever I'm in a similar situation.


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## shangman

Karmicnull said:


> I have to say I think you've been incredibly strong through this.  Full of admiration for how you're taking the learning and looking forward rather than being beaten down by the experience.  I hope I can manage to do the same if ever I'm in a similar situation.


Thank you Karmicnull that's lovely for you to say. Weirdly I feel more dedicated to the hobby than ever before. With this hobby it's clear that experience is so important and knowledge hard-won, I have learn so much from this, and how I should approach things in the future to hopefully mitigate it (and find new problems to deal with inevitably!). Every tank is an experiment, and hopefully eventually I get to a place where my experiments last a long time and are very stable, but I guess I'm not there yet! It has helped so much to be part of a community with all this support, if I didn't have anywhere to vent and commiserate about it I think it would be much more depressing and easy to give up.

So it's on to the next experiment(s) I suppose. I'm currently being mad and planning 3 scapes for this tank, 2 intended to just last a few months and be cheap, and the third to last several years. All really fun, all about learning as much as possible and doing something different. Do some things that make it worth changing it up.

I'm thinking of starting with a seasonal pond tank, and only growing pond plants in it to see what that's like. Cold water, something like Shrimpery on instagram. Maybe will keep my ricefish in there, or some other fish which can live in my above-ground garden pond afterwards. I'm not too sure on the details yet, it's just the start of an idea, but I think it sounds intriguing and worth trying.


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## KirstyF

I think that, as heartbreaking as it is, this is probably the right decision. It seems that an ongoing slow loss of fish is possibly inevitable and that is not good for you or for them. The risk of catching TB and potential consequences of that is also not something anyone would want to face. 

The toughest but is still to come I’m sure but hopefully will allow you to move forward in a positive way. 

As @Karmicnull said, you’ve been a real stalwart through all of this so keep ur chin up hon and anything we can do to help, just shout. 😊


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## Gill

Honestly I feel your pain with how you have lost the fish and witnessed the slow decline of the other inhabitants. 
I went thru something similar experience many years ago. When a black paradise fish infected a 4foot tank with Camallanus worms. And had to make the tough decision to euthanise the whole tank. it was not easy to watch the fish suffer etc. 
And like with TB you have to scrap everything, as the worms get into everything. 
I must say though the way you have laid things bare for everyone to see, is not something everyone can do. So I commend you for it. And Wish you all the best in the coming days


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## shangman

Well the deed is done and it was very grim, but just about doable. It sucked up all my energy out though, I did it around lunchtime, and then had to rest for the rest of the day to recover from it. So I still have to clean all the filters and pipes and do the bleach and stuff but I will do it tomorrow. Much chocolate had been eaten!!!

This evening I feel sort of punched in the stomach but also a sense of relief too. I think it was the right thing to do, a lot of them didn't seem to be really eating in the last week, the change in behaviour was marked. I took some pictures yesterday, I suppose I will post later this week to ~end~ this journal. You'll have to join me in the next one! 



KirstyF said:


> I think that, as heartbreaking as it is, this is probably the right decision. It seems that an ongoing slow loss of fish is possibly inevitable and that is not good for you or for them. The risk of catching TB and potential consequences of that is also not something anyone would want to face.
> 
> The toughest but is still to come I’m sure but hopefully will allow you to move forward in a positive way.
> 
> As @Karmicnull said, you’ve been a real stalwart through all of this so keep ur chin up hon and anything we can do to help, just shout. 😊


This is all exactly right. I just realised it's better to accept the nasty bit of bad luck I've had, and move on. The fish shouldn't suffer, and I did it as humanly as I could. Thank you for your support ♥️♥️



Gill said:


> Honestly I feel your pain with how you have lost the fish and witnessed the slow decline of the other inhabitants.
> I went thru something similar experience many years ago. When a black paradise fish infected a 4foot tank with Camallanus worms. And had to make the tough decision to euthanise the whole tank. it was not easy to watch the fish suffer etc.
> And like with TB you have to scrap everything, as the worms get into everything.
> I must say though the way you have laid things bare for everyone to see, is not something everyone can do. So I commend you for it. And Wish you all the best in the coming days


It's good to know that it does happen tbh, although every story is awful and I'm very sorry you had to do that!

Tbh if I can gleam any usefulness from this for others that is great, I want to harvest every silver lining to this massive grey cloud. Even if it's just to document more the emotions and experiences that come along with having an aquarium which are not always talked about.


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## seedoubleyou

Glad you’ve closed the book on this one mate and can now move forward with a new venture.

You’ve done the right thing and don’t need any of us to tell you so. 

Looking forward to your next journal !!


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## The Miniaturist

I think you have shown how strong you are & how caring towards the tank inhabitants to have taken them out & ended their lives respectfully to save them suffering further.
Yes it is an end & a sad one to 'The Nymph's Spring' but I feel anyone who has read & enjoyed your journal will be looking forward now for the next one whenever you feel ready to continue.
Chocolate & tea can help sustain you in most situations!


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## Conort2

You’ve done the right thing.

It’s great how you’ve recorded the whole process that others can learn from in the future. 

I’m sure you’re next set up will be as great if not better than this one. I still couldn’t believe how good the last one was when I realised how long you’ve been keeping fish. You’ve certainly got an eye for it.

Cheers


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## shangman

seedoubleyou said:


> Glad you’ve closed the book on this one mate and can now move forward with a new venture.
> 
> You’ve done the right thing and don’t need any of us to tell you so.
> 
> Looking forward to your next journal !!


Thank you, I'm feeling very relieved today that it is over tbh. I have a plan to start a new journal tomorrow, feels fitting to end this tank on Good Friday and start a new one on Easter Sunday - death, ressurection, life, all that jazz. I am looking forward to the excitement of planning a new one, kinda need it after this low!! Researching a new tank is so fun



The Miniaturist said:


> I think you have shown how strong you are & how caring towards the tank inhabitants to have taken them out & ended their lives respectfully to save them suffering further.
> Yes it is an end & a sad one to 'The Nymph's Spring' but I feel anyone who has read & enjoyed your journal will be looking forward now for the next one whenever you feel ready to continue.
> Chocolate & tea can help sustain you in most situations!


I am glad they will not suffer any more now, honestly it was so depressing watching them die one by one of all sorts of things, knowing it could continue for months and months. As a friend of mine said, at least if the tank went down, it went down dramatically with a super rare condition and an interesting story. Never a dull moment I suppose! 

I will set up a new journal v soon. I would like to rescape quite quickly, and I also have another nano tank that's doing quite well which was set up in February with my dad. This whole stuff has taken up so much energy that I just couldn't be bothered to post about it, it's been my little bowl of calm and it looks very cute. There is more to come


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## shangman

A note on cleaning, for anyone in the future who has to clean a tank of FishTB/mycobacterium. I got these instructions from a friend on Instagram who has had to do this himself, and I think works in a lab.

_The target for total disinfection using bleach only is 800ppm- which can be tested using a chlorine test kit as the chlorine will be used up by organic matter. But it would be better to overdose than underdose and not worry about testing.

It will depend what strength bleach you use (don’t use any that has a scent and ideally a thin bleach which won’t have detergents) a 2.75% bleach dose 20ml per litre roughly for 24hours should be plenty to kill everything. If you follow this up by letting the tank/equipment dry out completely before reusing it will help further.

The only thing you’ll want to be careful with are the rubber O ring seals on any canister filters etc. as they may weaken in bleach just something to bear in mind!_

So first I've cleared the tank of all the stuff, and the filters of all media. Next I'm washing the inside and outside of the tank, cabinet, pipes, lily pipes, filters and all over equipment and wiping them with bleach solution, and then water. Next, I'm resetting up the whole system, filling the tank with the bleach solution given above (though my bleach is 5% so have adjusted for that), and I will run the tank with filters and UV for a day to clear everything out. Here I will throw away all filter media/sponges, buckets, hoses and nets I have, and put all equipment I'm keeping in the tank with the bleach for that day. Then the tank and whole system gets drained of bleach, and everything goes outside to dry fully in the sun. After a few days, it goes back in, filled with clean water and a lot of dechlorinator and will run for a few days, until I'm ready to rescape. Will fully drain again here.


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## seedoubleyou

shangman said:


> ressurection, life, all that jazz


Sounds like you’ve already found the title to your next journal.


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## aec34

As and when you set up the new tank, do make sure to shout for plants - I know lots of people will be willing to contribute if they can spare what you want to get you up and running, when you’re ready.


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## aec34

PS A few of us have already been plotting on this front.. 🧐


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## KirstyF

Yep, there are donations waiting in the wings hon. Just let us know when ur ready.

Don’t feel obliged, if you want to start totally fresh, and you can always bin excess etc but we all know how expensive it is to start from new, so I’m sure folks will be happy to help out. 😊


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## John q

Oh mate, life sucks 😕 .... but we persevere. 

I'll assist in securing the next pair of apistogramna's, I'm assuming these will feature in the new scape? 😁


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## shangman

There we are. Yesterday we sadly said goodbye to the fish, today we say goodbye - and good riddance - to the FishTB. Tiny bit of sand left, but it looks like more here than reality, I'm pretty sure the 2 litres of bleach I added will take care of anything too lmao. Along with the tank inside and out, all filters and pipes were cleaned, do the flow is hilariously strong and the UV is on all the time.  I think I could've done with less flow in the tank tbh, I feel like maybe 1 filter is enough for a tank my size. 

When the bleach wash is over I'll do another tank clean to get it a bit more spotless, it'll really get those stubborn bits of algae that usually I can't be bothered to clean off. 

You guys are so kind ♥️♥️♥️ Love UKAPS ♥️♥️♥️ you already did so much helping me with the vet fees!

To be honest I don't think I'm up to apistos or even a tropical SA tank yet, it feels weird to try something so similar again immediately. I want to be distracted by something really different rather than reminded cos I am sad about it. That pretty much was my ideal tropical tank, I don't think I could do it again unless it was... Bigger 😂 so I could really get proper sized groups of fish, BigTom-style.  I will come back to it again but not for now. I want to forget this grimness a bit. Also I spent loads of money on that tank thinking about it as a longer term thing that was fine, (especially plants I felt I had a nice collection) and I can't be sinking that much into it again that soon! ... Another thing a lot of us don't talk about tbh 👀 Not that I regret it, but it feels right to be cheap and experimental, quick on my feet. Maybe do several different simpler but interesting scapes a few months apart to try things out before settling on a new long term scape.


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## Kerrycarp

So, so sorry for all that you've endured, it brings back unhappy memories.
But hey, it's Easter Sunday, time for resurrection and I'm looking forward to reading the new journal.
Good luck and best wishes from someone who has been there!


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## shangman

Thank you all for a wonderful 40 pages!! Rather a lot, I hope you've all enjoyed reading, and that any future readers found the slog well worth it! I really enjoyed writing it, even the crap bit at the end when everything went tits ups, it has been both cathartic and comforting.












Please join me in my new journal <Resurrection, Life, & All That Jazz (EA900)>, another adventure awaits!​


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## Midwife

The curtain has finally come down on the Nymph's Spring and it's a sad day for this forum. I'll be honest it was the only journal I followed  with interest.

That empty tank will rise again like excalibar. All the best


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