# 810l (210g) teak root tank



## leonroy (25 Sep 2011)

I've been keeping fish for years, and whilst I've only dabbled in planted tanks I've decided to bite the bullet and go all in with a large project. I'm looking to get a 180x60x70cm (72"x24"x30") tank (LxDxH), which due to the size will be best made in acrylic I reckon.

The project time scale is 4-6 months, and any advice, criticism (constructive of course  and encouragement is appreciated.

I really dislike the sight of pipework and heaters going into the tank, and whilst those pretty, glass ADA lily pipes do look very nice it seems that the best solution for any aquarium is an overflow/weir setup going to a sump?

I looked at the price of aquarium cabinets, and for the size of tank I'm looking at, an MDF cabinet will cost upwards of £500 so I figured a good quality piece of furniture could be purchased for that much and would also be more wife friendly.

A search for a good platform has been a quest in itself, and after seeing this:





I thought I'd found a good candidate. But alas the internal members were most certainly not going to support 810kg (1785lbs) of weight!

So my search continued and I stumbled (very nearly!) into this, a teak root table. And the manufacturer was willing to sell the roots separately:




In keeping with a nature aquarium I figured what better support than a tree root and considering its weight and heft, I figured that a few of these might be able to support so much weight. Of course, when dealing with aquarium support 'might' is not acceptable in any shape or form so I'll likely have to brace the supports with a discreet and sturdy metal framework. This will have to be custom made.

For light fittings, I have searched far and wide and boy is there a lot of ugly (and overpriced) stuff out there. One would think that a good quality MH or T5 light fitting wouldn't be *that* much more expensive than a quality bathroom or shop light, but it really feels like the manufacturers of aquarium lighting are price gouging just a teensy bit…*rant over*

My candidates are:

1. Giesemann Infiniti
2. ADA Grand Solar
3. ATI Powermodule
4. LED lighting

It appears that the best lighting available at the moment is a combination T5/MH lamp which provides both light variation (by switching on the MH and T5 circuits using timers) and intensity. In addition using MH seems to be the only way to get that 'shimmer' effect which you see with marine setups.

There is however a new kid on the block; LED lighting but the technology is changing so fast and there are so many new models that I can't figure out if it's even comparable to MH. Is it good enough to light a 30" deep planted tank? Can I use just LED lighting?

For filtration I have a Fluval FX5 and Eheim 2078 on my existing tank, but since I'll be moving to a sump I can ditch these I hope?

UV will be provided by a Vecton 600 and Aqua Medic Helix Max 55W, which in series I hope should be good enough for the tank?

As for the livestock I'd ideally like Altum angels in this new tank (hence the extra depth - otherwise I'd have gone for a 24" tank). So I guess the current in the tank can't be too strong?

Once again, any tips and advice would be greatly appreciated.


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## foxfish (25 Sep 2011)

I would be interested in how much you can find a acrylic tank for - generally in the UK they are pretty expensive.
You don't mention filtration or Co2?
You might want to consider a sump & overflow arrangement as this might be more economical & practical compared to buying two large externals? 
Whatever filtration you choose you will most likely need loads of room under the tank.
MH lights are very bright, very hot & expensive to run but you are right about the LEDs - it might still be a little early in there development to invest the very high initial cost to by them?
There are several big tanks featured on the forum (most with sumps) that might inspire & help you..


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## thingymajig (25 Sep 2011)

Hi leonroy, ive had a similar size tank which was 72x30x30 which was big.obviously a big
tank can give you a greater footprint to scape.but has its pitfalls from my experience,i'll  
name few.

1.is it low/high tech..can you get the co2 down to the substrate adequately?
if not will lead to problems straight away...
2.to clean the bottom of the tank or to replant anything uprooted is your arm
long enough? other wise shoulder and face will be in there  
3.weekly water change if your high tech will be quite a mission 500ltrs roughly  
will you have time once a week?if so all good  
4.10x turner over will be a mission.[weir and sump doesnt do it for me.to much co2 loss]
unless you have some a way of sealing the sump with ease of maintanance then go 
for it....


these were just a few of my probs with a deep tank like that..........

cheers........


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## foxfish (25 Sep 2011)

Here is a nice one viewtopic.php?f=15&t=17629 Toms tank runs a sump & I think a needle wheel pump returning the water gas mix.


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## foxfish (25 Sep 2011)

This is a really great thread - every thing you need to know......viewtopic.php?f=35&t=10171&hilit=sump
Overflows can definitely cause C02 loss but it is not really the sump that is a problem!
Some folk even use trickle towers above the sump, that you would definitely have to seal up somehow but, I dont use a tower preferring to use submerged filter media within the sump.


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## sanj (26 Sep 2011)

My 96x36x28h is in acrylic. I personally found this better than the glass, but i m not sure what the economics are at your tank size. I was also looking at the other advantages of higher clarity, strength, weight, thermal properties...

Circulation wise, I dont think ive had a major problem and is met by external filtration and powerheads. I went with Ecotech MP40s, granted they are on the expensive side, but there are cheaper options.

Water changing I find a doddle, but it depends on how fussy your occupants are. Hose pipe,tap and pond dechlorinator essentially. Thats what i have been doing for a few years now.

Internal access can be an issue, but if you can get a foot bench/steps that is high enough it can make things a lot easier.


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## leonroy (26 Sep 2011)

foxfish said:
			
		

> I would be interested in how much you can find a acrylic tank for - generally in the UK they are pretty expensive.
> You don't mention filtration or Co2?
> You might want to consider a sump & overflow arrangement as this might be more economical & practical compared to buying two large externals?
> Whatever filtration you choose you will most likely need loads of room under the tank.
> ...



I'm looking at quotes of £1600 approx for the tank...   But it is what it is...and a glass tank is certainly no cheaper and very much heavier (and more fragile) than acrylic.

Regarding filtration I've already (over the years) picked up a Fluval FX5 and Eheim 2078. The reason I'm considering a sump is to keep the noise and clutter of pumps and heaters away from the aqua scape - I'll be plumbing the sump in the cellar below so it'll also keep the mess of filter cleaning and water changes away from the wife!

And TBH I find water changes enough of a PITA with a 60g tank that I shudder to imagine how many buckets I'll need to cart back and forth to do the requisite 25% water change (it'll be 200 odd liters a week!). A sump seems the first step in implementing an auto-water change system.

Thanks for the tip, I've been poring over the threads in this forum!


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## leonroy (26 Sep 2011)

foxfish said:
			
		

> This is a really great thread - every thing you need to know......viewtopic.php?f=35&t=10171&hilit=sump
> Overflows can definitely cause C02 loss but it is not really the sump that is a problem!
> Some folk even use trickle towers above the sump, that you would definitely have to seal up somehow but, I dont use a tower preferring to use submerged filter media within the sump.



Thanks for the links foxfish, been following your log tank as well, very original!

A trickle tower is an interesting idea, seen anyone using it on this forum? Also can I get a pic of your sump?


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## foxfish (26 Sep 2011)

I love acrylic tanks too! They are so easy to drill holes in   
The issue with installing a sump in the cellar will come from a couple of angles - very powerful pump required to return the water & loss of gas on its way back to the sump.
You need to consider the basic requirements to operate a big planted tank.
(1) I am assuming you are going high tech in which case you will need a good supply of C02. (10kg cylinder maybe?)
(2) An efficient way of getting all that gas distributed around your tank. (reactor or needle wheel pump?)

Have you thought about those points?


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## leonroy (26 Sep 2011)

sanj said:
			
		

> My 96x36x28h is in acrylic. I personally found this better than the glass, but i m not sure what the economics are at your tank size. I was also looking at the other advantages of higher clarity, strength, weight, thermal properties...
> 
> Circulation wise, I dont think ive had a major problem and is met by external filtration and powerheads. I went with Ecotech MP40s, granted they are on the expensive side, but there are cheaper options.
> 
> ...



Honored to have you grace my thread sanj, your tank is absolutely epic, a real inspiration.

I did a quick calculation of a tank of this size in glass and it came to about 180kg in weight without any water! Come winter too I think I'll be throwing money at it just to heat the thing. Do you find acrylic much better at retaining heat?

Glad you mentioned the Ecotech MP40, I was thinking of a pair of those - one at each end of the tank to generate the required 10x flow needed. Have you seen Ecotech's new light fitting, the Radion?
http://ecotechmarine.com/products/radion/

Also do you have an experience with aquarium controllers? I was thinking of something to monitor ph, control the pumps and to also perform auto-water changes (if it can cook and clean that would be a plus!


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## foxfish (26 Sep 2011)

leonroy said:
			
		

> foxfish said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sure our resident Plantbrain uses trickle towers viewtopic.php?f=35&t=17797


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## leonroy (26 Sep 2011)

foxfish said:
			
		

> I love acrylic tanks too! They are so easy to drill holes in
> The issue with installing a sump in the cellar will come from a couple of angles - very powerful pump required to return the water & loss of gas on its way back to the sump.
> You need to consider the basic requirements to operate a big planted tank.
> (1) I am assuming you are going high tech in which case you will need a good supply of C02. (10kg cylinder maybe?)
> ...



Heheh, considering how nerve wracking drilling glass is I'd call that a definite plus!

I have a fair pump collection (used to be into watercooling computers):
I picked up the MD-70RZ on the far right for £80 on ebay...   




I am indeed going hi-tech, but am worried that the sump will cause my CO2 consumption to be far higher than if I used canister filters. I've heard the terms needle wheels, CO2 reactors and Mazzei bandied about, guess I'll need to research some more.

My main problem at the moment is deciding where to drill the tank and where to place the inlet/outlet and any potential weir or overflow.


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## leonroy (28 Sep 2011)

I thought I'd get some practice in while waiting for this big thing to get built   

teak root mini


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## foxfish (29 Sep 2011)

I like to have two overflows on a big tank, I would normally drill a 46mm hole 170mm down rather than use holes in the bottom of the tank.
If you can install a sump at chest level in your cellar then it would make maintenance very easy.
If it were me, I would look into using an 100mm acrylic tube after the return needle wheel pump to completely dissolve the micro bubbles before retuning the flow to the display tank.
Depending on your sourcing but, C02 is cheap, as long as you have an big enough cylinder I would not worry to much about how much gas you use!
An open top trickle tower would be just about the most effective way to "de gas" your tank but a covered sump filled with bio balls is not going to have much effect on gas loss.
Having said all that, I do think you will need at least a pub sized C02 cylinder if you don't want to be changing it every month. i guess it doesn't matter how big the cylinder is if it is out of site anyway...


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## leonroy (2 Nov 2011)

Just pulled the trigger on two ADA Grand Solar I lights for the tank. ETA is late November, still awaiting the teak roots. At the moment looks like the tank is going to be approximately 72"x30"x30" at the upper end. Two GSI lights should cover it I hope!


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## Piece-of-fish (2 Nov 2011)

It will be enough light for sure. The bigger the tank the less wpg you need.
Regarding gas I use londonbeergases and can't recommend them enough. I use 6.5kg bottles which are 24£ to refill with usually next day free delivery to your door. You pay 60£ for the bottle initially. They also have 3.5 and 32kg bottles. First will cost you the same money and second would roughly be 1.5 times more expensive. I think 6.5 would be the best for you. They are 85cm high though.
Great project, would like to participate setting it up    when you arrive to planting stage.


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## leonroy (4 Nov 2011)

Thanks for the recommendation, I'll checkout londonbeergases. Might get one canister for the nano since the thought of pouring money into ADA CO2 cartridges is a bit too much to stomach. Can you recommend a good CO2 regulator?

Yeah! Happy for the help (I'm sure I'll need it!) Would love to see your tank in person too, it's one of the best I've seen here. A LFKC meet scheduled in the near future?


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## leonroy (23 Nov 2011)

Asked someone visiting the US to bring back two ADA Grand Solar I units for me. They took the biggest suitcase they had and sent me this pic:




Guess I'm gonna have to look at postage!


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## matador1982 (24 Nov 2011)

leonroy said:
			
		

> Asked someone visiting the US to bring back two ADA Grand Solar I units for me. They took the biggest suitcase they had and sent me this pic:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Madness   

Will be worth it in the long run though


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## flygja (25 Nov 2011)

Better buy your friends a few big dinners!


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## leonroy (26 Nov 2011)

flygja said:
			
		

> Better buy your friends a few big dinners!



In-laws actually...I've already pinched their daughter, think I owe them more than a few good meals!   

Spent the past week designing the sump for this bad boy. Since I don't want ANY equipment upstairs apart from the tank lighting (obviously ) I'll be sticking the filter, pump, controllers, auto-top-up, dosing pumps, etc. etc. in the cellar below.

Despite buying the two most well regarded filters for this project I've found in the fine print that neither handle a large difference in height between the top of the tank's water surface and the bottom of the filter. In the FX5 manual for instance it states:

_The filter lid must be at least 7.8 in. (20 cm) below your aquarium’s water level but never more than 4.9 ft. (150 cm)._

Bummer 

That said, in preparation for the project I've been running the temporary tank where I'm keeping all my fish using this arrangement. Tank in the study, pumps and equipment in the basement. However whilst the canister filter is able to handle the higher pressure of being placed about 6' below the tank the in-built pump is woefully inadequate. I've had to stick a very large Iwaki pump on to maintain the same flow as the Eheim maintained when used as normal (600 l/h):






I'm using 22mm John Guest pipework and fittings although something tells me I should be using at least 30mm if not 40mm pipe for a tank as large as the final project. Can anyone recommend a good supplier for 40mm fittings, valves, etc.?


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## wandgrudd (26 Nov 2011)

is there any way the filter could be moved closer to the ceiling thus reducing the height it hast to push the water back up?


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## leonroy (30 Nov 2011)

wandgrudd said:
			
		

> is there any way the filter could be moved closer to the ceiling thus reducing the height it hast to push the water back up?



Good question, it's actually up on a shelf since placing it on the floor caused the filter to really creak and groan under the pressure. Considering the price, Eheim filters are quite poorly constructed. A far cry from Ocean Clear filters for example:




Speaking of quality, the ADA light fittings arrived today and the quality of the unit really puts to shame any aquarium light fitting I've ever seen. They're up there quality wise with commercial light fittings like you'd find in factories and airports.

Doggie seal of approval:




They are in a very large suitcase and barely fit, definitely not for smaller tanks:




Built out of very heavy gauge metal:




The bulb is as fat as my thumb:




I've yet to order a transformer for them although the specs suggest they can operate on a 200V supply. I'm sure they could be rewired but for now a big tranny will do!


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## Callum (2 Jan 2012)

Any updates?


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## leonroy (4 Jan 2012)

Three of those blocks of wood arrived two weeks ago...weighing about 100kg+ each I plan on using those for as the stand. I've used one for the Mini-M above until I order the 200 gallon tank. Before that though I have to order the sump and get that plumbed in. Been procrastinating over that since the outlet hole and dimensions make it pretty final once ordered.

Should be ordering it before the end of the month. It's 48"x20"x15" (LxHxW). Filling it with Sera Siporax will cost an absolute fortune so I'll probably use plastic scrubbies or cheaper plastic bio balls...any recommendations for cheap bio media?


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## foxfish (4 Jan 2012)

When I was involved with Koi, I built many trickle towers & always filled them with embossed parcel strapping.
http://www.qualitystrapping.com/plastic ... kstrap.php when unwrapped & forced into a confined space it makes an extremely efficient media.


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## leonroy (5 Jan 2012)

foxfish said:
			
		

> When I was involved with Koi, I built many trickle towers & always filled them with embossed parcel strapping.



Great idea, and to think, all this time I've thrown the stuff away considering it a very dangerous tripping hazard!


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## Aqua sobriquet (9 Apr 2012)

Just seen your pump collection! What's the output on the two small ones and where did you get them?


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## leonroy (11 Apr 2012)

Heheh, on their own they'd be considered pretty big pumps considering the size and weight!

The MD-20R offers double the performance of the MD-15R. So approximately 400-500 l/hr vs 800-1000 l/hr. Really depends on how big the filter is, how much media, etc. ADA use the MD-15R on the ES-600 SuperJet filter and the MD-20R on the ES-1200 series. They rate the pumps at 330 l/hr and 960 l/hr respectively with the filter fully loaded.
http://www.adana.com.sg/productsPage/ad ... ation.html

I bought the MD-15R from Iwaki UK for £160 odd and the MD-20R on ebay for £40 odd. I'd hit ebay in future since the price is so much cheaper than retail and these things are built like bricks so buying used isn't really an issue.


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## Aqua sobriquet (11 Apr 2012)

Thanks for that, I'll keep a look out for a MD-20R then!


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## somethingfishy (11 Apr 2012)

Loving the thread so far and cant wait to see you beast of a setup take shape.

Quick question where did you get the wood from it looks amazing

dave


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## Antipofish (11 Apr 2012)

Hey Leonroy, how quiet are the smaller Iwaki's ? I am contemplating having one to add extra circulation as well as running mechanical filtration and the heater/CO2.  What are your (or anyones) thoughts on that ?


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## leonroy (11 Apr 2012)

somethingfishy said:
			
		

> Loving the thread so far and cant wait to see you beast of a setup take shape.
> 
> Quick question where did you get the wood from it looks amazing
> 
> dave



Thanks, feel terrible for the delay but work and money comes first!

I'll be ordering the sump soon, then it's a matter of figuring out which tank to buy. I'd originally planned on an all acrylic tank but after seeing the new ADG install I think I much prefer the metal framed tank they used.



If anyone knows where I can obtain such a tank I'd greatly appreciate it. I'm thinking of a bare tank like that on a wooden base.

I obtained the teak root bases from a company called RAFT.


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## leonroy (11 Apr 2012)

Antipofish said:
			
		

> Hey Leonroy, how quiet are the smaller Iwaki's ? I am contemplating having one to add extra circulation as well as running mechanical filtration and the heater/CO2.  What are your (or anyones) thoughts on that ?



They're audible up close, certainly not as quiet as an Eheim. Inside a cabinet though you probably won't hear them. I'd put the noise level around that of a good quality air pump. They make excellent circulation pumps but a few notes of caution: 

1. NEVER run them dry for any period of time, they spin at such speed that it damages the ceramic bearing very quickly.
2. Try to avoid restricting the inlet to reduce flow. Restricting the outlet is fine however - the Iwaki pumps are designed to push against resistance rather than pulling through it.
3. They are pretty powerful so unsuitable for a anything less than a 24" tank (and you'll still probably want to restrict the outlet with a tank of that size).


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## Antipofish (11 Apr 2012)

Cheers for the info.  Couple more questions if I may;
1) Which Eheims are we talking about ? The likes of 1250s etc in the Universal range, or a different range ? I am not that familiar with pumps.  
2) You said don't restrict the inlet.  How do you prevent the pump from getting clogged ? (And also the inline producs beyond the pump ?

Thanks


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## leonroy (11 Apr 2012)

Antipofish said:
			
		

> Cheers for the info.  Couple more questions if I may;
> 1) Which Eheims are we talking about ? The likes of 1250s etc in the Universal range, or a different range ? I am not that familiar with pumps.
> 2) You said don't restrict the inlet.  How do you prevent the pump from getting clogged ? (And also the inline producs beyond the pump ?
> 
> Thanks



1. Eheim 1250/1260 etc. The Iwaki's are used in the ADA SuperJet's so they're quiet enough that the missus won't mind them! Just be aware you can hear them in a quiet room.
2. A filter in front of the Iwaki inlet is fine, I meant that restrictions like a valve to reduce flow should be placed on the outlet only.

Also should add the US auction sites tend to have far more Iwaki pumps for sale than the UK ones. They also will have 240V models for sale since the US has two voltages (110V and 240V).


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## Antipofish (11 Apr 2012)

Once again, many thanks   Last question then I will shutup and stop hijacking your thread, lol. (PS those teak blocks are stunning in their own right !).  Did you mean an Eheim would be quieter than an Iwaki or vice versa ? I will not be looking at a massive one to be honest.  One of the baby ones that gives anything over 600lph should suffice.  Maybe go for 1000lph to 1500lph so I can restrict it though.


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## Aqua sobriquet (12 Apr 2012)

Adjusting the flow electrically would probably be the best way but it depends on the type of motor used. My central heating pump has a simple three speed switch so it can be done. Dupla used CH pumps early on before they switched to something smaller


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## leonroy (12 Apr 2012)

Antipofish said:
			
		

> Did you mean an Eheim would be quieter than an Iwaki or vice versa ? I will not be looking at a massive one to be honest.


No problem. Eheim is quieter.



			
				Aqua sobriquet said:
			
		

> Adjusting the flow electrically would probably be the best way but it depends on the type of motor used. My central heating pump has a simple three speed switch so it can be done.


The Iwaki MD- range all use AC motors so whilst you could in theory reduce the speed by reducing the current it is not ideal. Reason being that many AC motors are designed to run at a specific voltage and frequency. If operated outside this range the motor may run faster/slower but its life will usually be shortened by overheating or bearing failure. Not to mention there'll be lower efficiency and poor torque output.

The Iwaki RD- range however use DC motors so the motor speed is completely variable. You could probably do some pretty cool wave and stream type effects using those and a clever DC voltage controller.


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## Aqua sobriquet (12 Apr 2012)

leonroy said:
			
		

> The Iwaki RD- range however use DC motors so the motor speed is completely variable. You could probably do some pretty cool wave and stream type effects using those and a clever DC voltage controller.



I like the sound of that!


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## foxfish (12 Apr 2012)

Aqua sobriquet said:
			
		

> Adjusting the flow electrically would probably be the best way but it depends on the type of motor used. My central heating pump has a simple three speed switch so it can be done. Dupla used CH pumps early on before they switched to something smaller


I am using a Grundfos three speed pump with an Aqua turn conversion on my tank at the moment


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## Aqua sobriquet (12 Apr 2012)

Gosh, what size tank are you running that on?!

Update: just seen the conversion kit you mentioned on eBay. Think I may buy one of those to play with given the cost!


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## Antipofish (12 Apr 2012)

foxfish said:
			
		

> Aqua sobriquet said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A grundfos central heating / boiler pump ?


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## Aqua sobriquet (12 Apr 2012)

Apparently: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/270950016928? ... 4829wt_922


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## Antipofish (12 Apr 2012)

IS it quiet ? I have one sitting in my garage that was used on a boiler for a week before the boiler failed for other reasons !


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## foxfish (12 Apr 2012)

The aqua turn won a Prince Charles award for somthing or another many years ago?

I have installed & sold probably 50- 60 in the last twenty years, mostly for Kio pond installations but I have used & endorsed their use for fish tank use too.

I  have installed several in commercial enterprises over the years, including several  in huge marine tanks.
Virtually silent in operation   

It is just a simple piece of injection molding that allows the use of a very high production pump to be used in many different circumstances including salt water.
My plant tank that uses the Grundfos is only about 200lr & it has a sump that makes full use of the pump, it powers a trickle filter & the main return all on the lowest setting (about 40w i think) but it is very useful to up the power on occasions!


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## Antipofish (12 Apr 2012)

foxfish said:
			
		

> The aqua turn won a Prince Charles award for somthing or another many years ago?
> 
> I have installed & sold probably 50- 60 in the last twenty years, mostly for Kio pond installations but I have used & endorsed their use for fish tank use too.
> 
> ...



Thanks that sounds really interesting.  I am either gonna use this brand new grundfos I have or sell it and buy an Eheim, LOL.


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## leonroy (8 Jun 2013)

Took my sweet time I know but here's the final design. The teak roots which sat idle for a year have since been claimed by the office to incorporate in a desk. In any case a standard aquarium cabinet makes more sense.

It's taken me almost as much time to draw in Sketchup as it would to setup the whole thing!





Inventory so far:

Pump has arrived.
Lights have arrived.
Cabinet ordered.
Sump ordered.
 
Left to order:

Aquarium, thinking FitFiltration for this.
Pipework, FitFiltration or Coral Culture seem to be highly recommended.
 
Using beanimal overflow. Sump design hashed out at a variety of sites from Discus Keepers to BarrReport - think it's the ideal design for a planted tank - but would love to stand corrected if anyone has any input.


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