# Major shrimp deaths, feeling like giving them up :(



## Nick potts

Hi all.

I am having an absolute nightmare with my shrimps in one of my tanks.

The tank is fully cycled and mature. I add Bacter ae every other day, JBL crusta mineral weekly and water changes I have dropped to around 5% daily. The tank has catappa leaves and alder cones.

For the past week or so my shrimp population has slowly (well not slowly) dwindled off, i am finding a new dead shrimp daily and now down to maybe 2-4.

I have done the usual tests for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, PH, KH and GH, TDS at 164

I am at a loss as to what to do and it is really starting to make me feel crappy now, to the point i just want to rip the tank apart and give up on shrimps altogether 

Oh, and the shrimps in questions are red and blue cherries.

Thanks


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## Jayefc1

Hi nick bacter ae every other day sounds like a lot to me are you leaving the filter off for a good hour to let the film settle over all.the hardscape when adding do you know what the water parameters where from who you brought the shrimp have you seen any molts in the tank how long have you had them


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## Nick potts

Thanks Jayefc1

I only add a very very tiny amount of the bacter ae. I do turn the filter off briefly so it's not sucked up by the surface skimmer but leave the sponge filter running.

I have noticed moults, though not many.

I don't know of the parameters of the breeder other than  22/24 degrees, TDS 200/220, they arrived on the 16th June for the blues, the reds i got maybe a month before that from a different supplier.


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## jaypeecee

Hi @Nick potts

Are you using tap water? If so, which tap water conditioner did you use? Any plants? Plant fertilizers? CO2? What is your filtration system? What is the tank water temperature?

JPC


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## Nick potts

Tap water, which comes out of the tap at 130-140 tds.

Temp 24c (can get higher on hot days)

I am using Reeflowers effective conditioner

Aquascaper complete ferts at 0.2ml daily.

No CO2

Filtration via a large HOB filer with sponges and ceramic rings, I also have a sponge filter running in the tank for better surface agitation and a place for the shrimp to feed etc.

The tank is full of Windelov java fern, Moss  Rotundifolia, and lots of Salvinia auriculata


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## Jayefc1

The bacter Ae I'd add once a week when you turn your filter off and leave it off for a good while so it can settle over everything any kind of filter running will just suck the fine granules straight out of the system I'd defo turn off all filters how many shrimp are left and how many did you start with and check your tap conditioner not all remove copper from water and that is really bad for shrimps


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## Nick potts

Jayefc1 said:


> The bacter Ae I'd add once a week when you turn your filter off and leave it off for a good while so it can settle over everything any kind of filter running will just suck the fine granules straight out of the system I'd defo turn off all filters how many shrimp are left and how many did you start with and check your tap conditioner not all remove copper from water and that is really bad for shrimps



Thanks.

Will start leaving filters off longer and cut my bacter feeding, as to be fair there is a good bio film in there with all the redmoor wood

Started with 20 shrimp, now down to maybe 3-4 (very hard to see/count as the tank is rather full with plants.

The water conditioner says it removed heavy metals, copper etc.

I have been considering an RO unit, but it was of my main hates of saltwater tanks.


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## Jayefc1

Shouldn't  need to go RO mate there hard little things something must be off have you tried to vary there diet at all mine like some crushed cooked peas and even frozen blood worm blanched kale is good to get calcium in to them to help with molting even a a pinch of fish food or a alge wafer bee polen is another great food you can get it pretty cheap at health food shops I would bet there having failed.molts that is killing them can you see a line between the head and body


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## jaypeecee

Hi @Nick potts 


Nick potts said:


> Aquascaper complete ferts at 0.2ml daily.



Without knowing the exact proportions of nutrients in this fertilizer, it is not possible to know how much copper it contains. That would be worth pursuing with Aquarium Gardens. I see that @Jayefc1 has also homed in on copper.

JPC


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## Nick potts

Thanks again.

Supplemental feeding consists of marks shrimp nettle mix, fresh nettles, Hikari shrimp and crab cuisine and whatever fish foods they can scavenge.

Moults was my first thought, I have been adding the JBL minerals to help with moulting. The shrimp themselves look perfect (except dead of course  ), no visible lines or loss of colour etc.

There are some ember tetra in the tank and they are doing fine.


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## jaypeecee

Nick potts said:


> The water conditioner says it removed heavy metals, copper etc.



But, then, having hopefully removed copper with the conditioner, you are probably adding copper with the fertilizer.

JPC


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## Nick potts

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Nick potts
> 
> 
> Without knowing the exact proportions of nutrients in this fertilizer, it is not possible to know how much copper it contains. That would be worth pursuing with Aquarium Gardens. I see that @Jayefc1 has also homed in on copper.
> 
> JPC



Yes, I have looked but can't see a breakdown of the nutrients, just that it says safe for inverts, maybe a copper test kit is needed, though not sure how accurate these are.


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## Jayefc1

Lol me and @jaypeecee have different views on test kits  
Have  you had any that have berried at all


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## jaypeecee

Nick potts said:


> ...maybe a copper test kit is needed, though not sure how accurate these are.



I have the API copper test kit, which I rarely use. Instead, I prefer _John's Copper Check_ from Sensafe/ITS (Industrial Test Systems). Part Number 480042. It can measure down to 0.05ppm and is supplied as test strips. You should be able to get it from Amazon.

JPC


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## Nick potts

Jayefc1 said:


> Lol me and @jaypeecee have different views on test kits
> Have  you had any that have berried at all



Yes indeed you do 

Not seen any berried shrimp in the time i have had them.

So frustrating when you can't do anything to help


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## Nick potts

jaypeecee said:


> I have the API copper test kit, which I rarely use. Instead, I prefer _John's Copper Check_ from Sensafe/ITS (Industrial Test Systems). Part Number 480042. It can measure down to 0.05ppm and is supplied as test strips. You should be able to get it from Amazon.
> 
> JPC



That one is out of stock, but i have ordered a salifert kit, they always served me well before.


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## Jayefc1

The red ones should be well settled by now and should even be having shrimplets I would try some different foods for a week or two mate do you actually see them eating or did you when you could find them are you target feeding in a bowl or just free feeding


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## Nick potts

OK, more deaths again today.

Found anonter shrimp on the substrate and am unable to find any of the others at the minute 😭😭

Images attached


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## rebel

Nick potts said:


> red and blue cherries.


Not sure about blue but red should be easier than that to keep.

I have at least 500 reds in my display tank but have tried multiple times with blue, yellow, CRS, snow white etc with all of them dying pretty quickly on me.

What you are describing sounds like a disease.

Also if you are starting with shrimp, best to keep them in a tank that's minimum 100L for stability.


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## Onoma1

I cannot offer a solution just, perhaps, share that I have experienced the same issues.  I have one tank with a thriving colony of yellow shrimp  however failed miserably in my attempts to build a colony of  blue shrimp in a separate tank ...despite buying from a great source.  The only factor that I could isolate in terms if the difference between the two tanks is that the substrate used in the second tank has an ADA Africa cap which reduces the PH and doesn't buffer against spikes in acidity. My water is already is already soft and quite acidic. 

Is it worth checking your PH before and after you turn the lights on? As CO2 increases in the water it may increase the acidity of the water creating a marginally more toxic environment for a shorter period? This may be a wild goose chase...just a thought.


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## jaypeecee

Hi @Nick potts 


Nick potts said:


> That one is out of stock, but i have ordered a salifert kit, they always served me well before.



You should be OK with the Salifert test kit as it measures down to 0.05 ppm. It's worth measuring your (cold) tap water as it can be as high as 2 ppm but still comply with the regulations. FYI, my tap water maximum figure for 2019 was 0.21 ppm, according to the water company's annual report. If you want to delve further, the following is well worth reading:

https://aquariumbreeder.com/how-copper-affects-dwarf-shrimp/

JPC


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## Nick potts

rebel said:


> Not sure about blue but red should be easier than that to keep.
> 
> I have at least 500 reds in my display tank but have tried multiple times with blue, yellow, CRS, snow white etc with all of them dying pretty quickly on me.
> 
> What you are describing sounds like a disease.
> 
> Also if you are starting with shrimp, best to keep them in a tank that's minimum 100L for stability.



Thanks Rebel.

Yes, I really thought I would have no trouble with theses shrimps from reading about care etc, I have kept much more sensitive inhabitants with no issues.

I also agree with you on tank size and stability and would never start out with a small tank but have been keeping nanos for a number of years now so thought i would be ok

As for disease, I will have to look up shrimp/invert diseases.



Onoma1 said:


> I cannot offer a solution just, perhaps, share that I have experienced the same issues.  I have one tank with a thriving colony of yellow shrimp  however failed miserably in my attempts to build a colony of  blue shrimp in a separate tank ...despite buying from a great source.  The only factor that I could isolate in terms if the difference between the two tanks is that the substrate used in the second tank has an ADA Africa cap which reduces the PH and doesn't buffer against spikes in acidity. My water is already is already soft and quite acidic.
> 
> Is it worth checking your PH before and after you turn the lights on? As CO2 increases in the water it may increase the acidity of the water creating a marginally more toxic environment for a shorter period? This may be a wild goose chase...just a thought.



Thanks Onoma1

The substrate in the tank is Fluval plant and shrimp stratum and sand, it is supposed to reduce PH but my PH in the tank is stable at around 7.5, GH 3 and KH 3


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## Nick potts

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Nick potts
> 
> 
> You should be OK with the Salifert test kit as it measures down to 0.05 ppm. It's worth measuring your (cold) tap water as it can be as high as 2 ppm but still comply with the regulations. FYI, my tap water maximum figure for 2019 was 0.21 ppm, according to the water company's annual report. If you want to delve further, the following is well worth reading:
> 
> https://aquariumbreeder.com/how-copper-affects-dwarf-shrimp/
> 
> JPC



I will also test my tap water.


If there are any shrimp experts on here, does the picture show anything that stands out?


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## jaypeecee

Hi @Nick potts


Nick potts said:


> Images attached



What are the white particles on the substrate (shown in the images, post #18)? Is it shrimp food?

JPC


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## Nick potts

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Nick potts
> 
> 
> What are the white particles on the substrate (shown in the images, post #18)? Is it shrimp food?
> 
> JPC



It's just general detritus etc, there is a big tank of plants and roots etc just to the right and wood above


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## Steve Buce

Hi nick, sorry to hear youre having problems with your blue neos, having read the thread and looked at the pics, ill offer my opinion and try to help

on the pic, no sign of parasites, fungus or physical damage, but the brown patch on the shrimp could be a bacterial infection, though could be necrosis as the shrimp as it decays.
Lets go with bacterial infection
causes - poor water quality(high nitrates) incorrect parameters(low ph, low dkh, low tds) chemical imbalance(copper poisoning etc) and enviromental stress bought on by any of the previous

If it was my tank and Not having full test results, i would conclude with Low ph, low dkh, low tds, plant substrate which lowers ph, especially in the confines of a smaller tank, not many moults  being seen,  your shrimps have a bacterial infection bought on by incorrect parameters

HTH steve


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## Nick potts

Steve Buce said:


> Hi nick, sorry to hear youre having problems with your blue neos, having read the thread and looked at the pics, ill offer my opinion and try to help
> 
> on the pic, no sign of parasites, fungus or physical damage, but the brown patch on the shrimp could be a bacterial infection, though could be necrosis as the shrimp as it decays.
> Lets go with bacterial infection
> causes - poor water quality(high nitrates) incorrect parameters(low ph, low dkh, low tds) chemical imbalance(copper poisoning etc) and enviromental stress bought on by any of the previous
> 
> If it was my tank and Not having full test results, i would conclude with Low ph, low dkh, low tds, plant substrate which lowers ph, especially in the confines of a smaller tank, not many moults  being seen,  your shrimps have a bacterial infection bought on by incorrect parameters
> 
> HTH steve



Hi @Steve Buce , thanks for your input. ( i was going to PM you but didn't want to hassle you with tons of questions  )

Yes, I noticed the brown patch on that shrimp in the pic, it is the first to show any signs of anything, the rest looked normal.

Parameters (that I can test) are

PH 7.5
DKH 3
GH 3
Nitrate 0-1
TDS 179
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Chlorine 0

The copper test is on the way so I will check that.

Are there any other tests you would recommend me doing?

The shrimp were all doing fine in a 5ltr pico tank with an inert substrate and fake decor, also straight on any food i put in the tank etc.

I am going to run another full set of tests today (not that I have any shrimp left to worry about  ) and see what the results are.

Really dishearting seeing you animals slowly dying, and as much as I would love to try again I just don't think I could.


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen

A GH of 3° strikes me as a bit on the low side. I keep mine at about 7°.


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## Nick potts

Dr Mike Oxgreen said:


> A GH of 3° strikes me as a bit on the low side. I keep mine at about 7°.



It is a bit low, my tap water is soft with a high PH but from what i have read should be fine?


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Dr Mike Oxgreen said:


> A GH of 3° strikes me as a bit on the low side. I keep mine at about 7°.


I might try adding a bit more carbonate buffering as well. They didn't  <"enjoy life with me"> when the tank got below about 100 microS and ~3dKH.





Nick potts said:


> It is a bit low, my tap water is soft with a high PH but from what i have read should be fine?


No, I think that is wrong. I'd just ignore the pH, it is raised by <"sodium hydroxide (NaOH) addition">.  Because NaOH is a strong base it all disassociates straight into Na+ and OH- ions, it doesn't have any buffering a  <"reserve of alkalinity">. You still have soft water, it just temporarily has a high pH.

I think <"pH is quite a problematic measurement">, particularly where you have "unusual" water. In the UK in 99.9% of natural situations high pH is going to go hand in hand with high dGH/dKH, but all soft tap water in the UK is <"now treated to raise the pH above pH 7">, which means that a lot of people now have soft tap water with high pH.

cheers Darrel


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## Nick potts

Thanks all for the help.

Just done another batch of tests.

GH 4
DKH 3
PH 7.5
Nitrite 0
Ammonia 0

I have attached the ammonia and nitrite test, i know a pic is not all that help as camera render colours differently and so do monitors, but it is the kit i find hardest to read (my colour vision is not all that great)


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Nick potts said:


> I will also test my tap water.


What does the report from your water supplier look like? They have an analytical lab. so their report will be accurate.





Nick potts said:


> I have attached the ammonia and nitrite test, i know a pic is not all that help as camera render colours differently and so do monitors, but it is the kit i find hardest to read (my colour vision is not all that great)


The test results look fine. 

I know that this won't find much favour among some traditional  fish-keepers, but if you have reasonably heavy planting my opinion is that you are very unlikely to have issues with ammonia or nitrite, plants are massively net oxygen producers and <"plant/microbe" biofiltration"> is a lot more efficient than <"microbe only">. 

The higher levels of oxygen mean that nitrification is <"unlikely to be limited by oxygen availability"> and any NH3/NH4+ or NO2- (which hasn't been mopped up directly by the plants) will be rapidly converted to nitrate (NO3-) by microbial nitrifiers, and that NO3 will then be taken up by the plants.

cheers Darrel


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## Nick potts

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, What does the report from your water supplier look like? They have an analytical lab. so their report will be accurate.The test results look fine.
> 
> I know that this won't find much favour among some traditional  fish-keepers, but if you have reasonably heavy planting my opinion is that you are very unlikely to have issues with ammonia or nitrite, plants are massively net oxygen producers and <"plant/microbe" biofiltration"> is a lot more efficient than <"microbe only">.
> 
> The higher levels of oxygen mean that nitrification is <"unlikely to be limited by oxygen availability"> and any NH3/NH4+ or NO2- (which hasn't been mopped up directly by the plants) will be rapidly converted to nitrate (NO3-) by microbial nitrifiers, and that NO3 will then be taken up by the plants.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Cheers Darrel

report can be seen here https://www.southwestwater.co.uk/siteassets/water-quality/2019-wq-reports/zp11-wq-report-2019.pdf

Nothing stands out to me, but they don't test for copper.


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Nick potts said:


> Nothing stands out to me, but they don't test for copper.


That is pretty much RO water out of the tap, less than 1dGH/dKH, but a pH over pH8 because of the NaOH addition.

It isn't likely to have much copper (Cu) in it, mainly because it doesn't have much iron (Fe),  lead (Pb) or manganese (Mn). 

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee

Hi @dw1305


dw1305 said:


> They didn't <"enjoy life with me"> when the tank got below about 100 microS and ~3dKH.


A conductivity of 100 microS/cm equates to a TDS of just 64 ppm. This is a lot less than @Nick potts' figure of TDS = 179 ppm.

JPC


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## jaypeecee

Hi @Nick potts 


Nick potts said:


> Nothing stands out to me, but they don't test for copper.


They _will_ test for copper as they are _required_ to do so. It is a national requirement, the upper limit being 2 mg/litre (ppm). As I may have mentioned earlier, the maximum figure from my water company (South East Water) in 2019 was 0.21 mg/l.

JPC


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## Nick potts

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @dw1305
> 
> A conductivity of 100 microS/cm equates to a TDS of just 64 ppm. This is a lot less than @Nick potts' figure of TDS = 179 ppm.
> 
> JPC





jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Nick potts
> 
> They _will_ test for copper as they are _required_ to do so. It is a national requirement, the upper limit being 2 mg/litre (ppm). As I may have mentioned earlier, the maximum figure from my water company (South East Water) in 2019 was 0.21 mg/l.
> 
> JPC



Thanks JPC

If they test for copper it is not included on the report from there website. My kit should be here soon.

On a better note, during my water change today I did find 1 shrimp, a large red female, seems fine but time will tell.


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





jaypeecee said:


> A conductivity of 100 microS/cm equates to a TDS of just 64 ppm. This is a lot less than @Nick potts' figure of TDS = 179 ppm


True,  conductivity is a pretty blunt instrument as a measurement. I don't add many nutrients so nearly <"all of my TDS"> will be from Ca++ and HCO3- ions.

Unless @Nick potts has been adding <"calcium and carbonate">. Then his tank won't have much of either dKH or dGH.

cheers Darrel


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## Nick potts

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, True,  conductivity is a pretty blunt instrument as a measurement. I don't add many nutrients so nearly <"all of my TDS"> will be from Ca++ and HCO3- ions.
> 
> Unless @Nick potts has been adding <"calcium and carbonate">. Then his tank won't have much of either.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Thanks Darrel.

I add JBL minerals to the tank that contains calcium, magnesium etc, but nothing else.


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## Siege

My best guess - low gh but more likely Ammonia caused  by waste at substrate level.

ps.  you shouldn’t be able to see the soil. Should be covered with plants.


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## jaypeecee

Hi @Nick potts 


Nick potts said:


> Just done another batch of tests.



I see that you are using _NT Labs_ test kits. You will note that, despite being a UK company, they adopt the American system of reporting nitrite as NO2-N and nitrate as NO3-N. You will need to multiply the readings you get by the conversion factors shown below:

https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/NitrogenIonConversion.php

I have spoken with NT Labs about this but I don't expect them to make any changes anytime soon!

Of course, if your readings are zero, it makes no difference!

JPC


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## dw1305

Hi all,





dw1305 said:


> That is pretty much RO water out of the tap, less than 1dGH/dKH, but a pH over pH8 because of the NaOH addition.


 I should have put the  figures from the report in:

Hardness Total (Ca mg/l) 

Number of samples :18 
Min. 8.90 
Mean 12.83 
Max. 16.70 
The workings for dGH/dKH are in  <"Good stones and rocks...">

cheers Darrel


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## Nick potts

Siege said:


> My best guess - low gh but more likely Ammonia caused  by waste at substrate level.
> 
> ps.  you shouldn’t be able to see the soil. Should be covered with plants.



Appreciate the input.

While I would agree more plants are better, a small section of unplanted soil should not be an issue?

I have tested, tested and retested ammonia with no readings. Substrate does get a good cleaning during water changes.


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Nick potts said:


> I add JBL minerals to the tank that contains calcium, magnesium etc, but nothing else.


Is it this one "JBL Aquadur - Mineral salt water conditioner to raise the hardness of freshwater aquariums"? That should do.

cheers Darrel


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## Nick potts

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Nick potts
> 
> 
> I see that you are using _NT Labs_ test kits. You will note that, despite being a UK company, they adopt the American system of reporting nitrite as NO2-N and nitrate as NO3-N. You will need to multiply the readings you get by the conversion factors shown below:
> 
> https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/NitrogenIonConversion.php
> 
> I have spoken with NT Labs about this but I don't expect them to make any changes anytime soon!
> 
> Of course, if your readings are zero, it makes no difference!
> 
> JPC



Very bad of them, especially as there is no mention of anything in there instructions, and most people (me included ) did not know that there was an American system.


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## Nick potts

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, Is it this one "JBL Aquadur - Mineral salt water conditioner to raise the hardness of freshwater aquariums"? That should do.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Hi Darrel, it's JBL nano crusta, which contains Montmorillonite amongst other things


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## jaypeecee

Hi Folks,


dw1305 said:


> Unless @Nick potts has been adding <"calcium and carbonate">. Then his tank won't have much of either dKH or dGH.


So true.

I'm no expert with shrimp but, additional to calcium in the water column, calcium in their diet must be equally/more important?

JPC


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## Nick potts

Question regarding substrate. As 99% of the plants in the tank are epiphytes and the soil substrate was mostly put in for it's buffering qualities do you think it would be best to replace with a calcium carbonate based coral sand?


The tank is mostly silica sand at the front with a large mound/planted area at the back with the aqua soil


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## jaypeecee

Hi @Nick potts 


Nick potts said:


> I add JBL minerals to the tank that contains calcium, magnesium etc, but nothing else.



Is that _Aquadur_? You can adjust KH and GH to suit the shrimps. Luxury!

JPC


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Nick potts said:


> JBL nano crusta...... which contains Montmorillonite


That becomes <"more problematic">, and another example of a company selling a product without <"actually explaining what it contains, or how it works">. 

I would just add a cheap calcium carbonate source, <"Oyster shell chick grit would do"> and at least you would know what it contained. 





> Chemically Montmorillonite is hydrated sodium calcium aluminum magnesium silicate hydroxide (Na,Ca)0.33(Al,Mg)2(Si4O10)(OH)2·_n_H2O. Potassium, iron, and other cations are common substitutes; the exact ratio of cations varies with source.


cheers Darrel


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen

jaypeecee said:


> I'm no expert with shrimp but, additional to calcium in the water column, calcium in their diet must be equally/more important?


Indeed. As I understand it, both dietary and water-column calcium are more-or-less equally important. I also believe some magnesium is required too, in lesser amounts.

So in addition to making sure the water GH is in the right range (shrimp seem to have a “Goldilocks” relationship with calcium - too much is bad, and so is too little), it’s good to feed a variety of veg like mushy courgette, wilted kale, boiled cabbage, etc etc. Little bits of algae wafer usually attract a big crowd as well.


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## jaypeecee

jaypeecee said:


> Is that _Aquadur_? You can adjust KH and GH to suit the shrimps. Luxury!


I see this has already been dealt with. I'm too slow!

JPC


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## Nick potts

OK, so my KH and GH are both on the lower end of the recommended range, so I will up them slowly.

Calcium carbonate sand to replace the silica sand I am using should help with both calcium uptake and KH increase/stability

I will pick up a remineraliser to add to my water change water, good idea?

Other than that I am not sure what else I can do. I will monitor the last remaining shrimp.


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## Siege

Nick potts said:


> Appreciate the input.
> 
> While I would agree more plants are better, a small section of unplanted soil should not be an issue?
> 
> I have tested, tested and retested ammonia with no readings. Substrate does get a good cleaning during water changes.



How well? Cleaning how? Stirring it up, releasing organics that stay at the substrate?

I donot think anyone could do it as well as plants. That combined with a nice turkey baster and bloody massive consecutive water changes! 😂

im not being argumentative, I just think you are going down a rabbit hole testing for copper etc.

ive seen it twice now where ammonia is zero but the ammonia, or whatever, is leaching from the substrate When the shrimp turn it over.


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## Siege

Ps. Are you not sure it is fish predating on them?


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## alto

@Nick potts 
You may find this article helpful (it has some excellent photos)

https://skfaquatics.com/forum/forums/topic/5052-shrimp-diseases-and-diagnosis/


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## alto

Also decent photos 

https://aquariumbreeder.com/understanding-dwarf-shrimp-diseases-and-parasites/

And 

https://www.jbl.de/en/press/detail/467/recognising-shrimp-diseases-and-reacting-in-time


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## Nick potts

Siege said:


> How well? Cleaning how? Stirring it up, releasing organics that stay at the substrate?
> 
> I donot think anyone could do it as well as plants. That combined with a nice turkey baster and bloody massive consecutive water changes! 😂
> 
> im not being argumentative, I just think you are going down a rabbit hole testing for copper etc.
> 
> ive seen it twice now where ammonia is zero but the ammonia, or whatever, is leaching from the substrate When the shrimp turn it over.





Siege said:


> Ps. Are you not sure it is fish predating on them?



Thanks Seige.

Only fish are ember tetras so I don't think predation is an issue.

Regarding copper, I think you are probably right but it can't hurt to test.

For substrate cleaning I don't stir up the soil, I use a sand flatter to waft the surface while syphoning, may not be the best method but seems to be working in other tanks.

The tank is heavily planted. What else would you suggest?


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## Nick potts

@alto thank you for the links, i will look them over.


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## Geoffrey Rea

Hi @Nick potts 



Nick potts said:


> I add Bacter ae every other day



You’re over feeding them straight off the bat.



Nick potts said:


> water changes I have dropped to around 5% daily.



Why? Over feeding and small water changes.



Nick potts said:


> i am finding a new dead shrimp daily and now down to maybe 2-4.



See above.



Nick potts said:


> The tank is fully cycled and mature.



If you’re adding in that much AE bacter it doesn’t matter. If you follow their recommended feeding it will poison your tank regardless. There’s plenty of youtube videos out there promoting their products but I hazard a bet you’re feeding one tank what most breeders would feed in a dozen tanks without actually asking you any specific questions. They have a vested interest in you getting through their product as fast as possible, but anyone on here with a planted tank with large surface areas available won’t be feeding their cherry shrimp. Their tanks will be infested with them.



Nick potts said:


> Temp 24c (can get higher on hot days)



Too hot. 20C-22C does just fine. Have bred thousands of cherry shrimp. Lower they can cope, higher is not necessary but they will cope but metabolism will increase.

Disease may also be a consideration as just mentioned.

I think the idea of caring for shrimp has become really profitable but not very helpful.


----------



## sciencefiction

Nick potts said:


> The tank is fully cycled and mature.



I am sure by now you got plenty of advise mate. But the above is the key to keeping animals healthy and alive. I am not trying to be patronize you or anyone. I am coming from similar experience, that's all. .

You can never tell if a tank is fully cycled or mature because it cycles all the time...it's a 24/7 flux. Things go right or bad every day, and we fishkeepers, the setup, the input, is what influences it.  A mature tank  means you got the right balance of bacteria, non-pathogenic vs pathogenic,  enough oxygen, the right food, the right combination of critters, etc... But one has no way of knowing  this unless they have the gear to scientifically examine the setup and even then scientists are poor because they have poor knowledge of fish.. The rule is that if critters are doing fine, behaving fine and naturally, growing fine, then you have it right. If not, then the issue issue is related to cycling, ,density of critters,compatibility of critters, enough filtration, too little flow, too little light,too much light, too much food, too little food, wrong type of food, enough water changes, enough oxygen. Fiddling with chemicals does not help whatsoever even if you're a pro.

I always say, if there are issues, start daily 50% water changes religiously. Decrease the bio load on the tank. Increase filtration, although it takes a while for that to take effect, but a big external filter will help to prevent the same in the future. Critters already affected will not make it but the changes create a stable setup for future critters.


----------



## Nick potts

Geoffrey Rea said:


> Hi @Nick potts
> 
> 
> 
> You’re over feeding them straight off the bat.
> 
> 
> 
> Why? Over feeding and small water changes.
> 
> 
> 
> See above.
> 
> 
> 
> If you’re adding in that much AE bacter it doesn’t matter. If you follow their recommended feeding it will poison your tank regardless. There’s plenty of youtube videos out there promoting their products but I hazard a bet you’re feeding one tank what most breeders would feed in a dozen tanks without actually asking you any specific questions. They have a vested interest in you getting through their product as fast as possible, but anyone on here with a planted tank with large surface areas available won’t be feeding their cherry shrimp. Their tanks will be infested with them.
> 
> 
> 
> Too hot. 20C-22C does just fine. Have bred thousands of cherry shrimp. Lower they can cope, higher is not necessary but they will cope but metabolism will increase.
> 
> Disease may also be a consideration as just mentioned.
> 
> I think the idea of caring for shrimp has become really profitable but not very helpful.



Thank you for the advise Geoffrey.

To answer some of the above.

I dropped the WC to 5% so i didn't shock anything in the tank with large swings in parameters.

As for the bacter ae, i dose as recommended by Marks Shrimp Tanks i.e a very tiny amount, in this tank it literally is the most minute speck 

For me shrimp in my freshwater tanks just add something extra, i have mostly kept saltwater tanks and always had a good selection of inverts

Thanks


----------



## Nick potts

sciencefiction said:


> I am sure by now you got plenty of advise mate. But the above is the key to keeping animals healthy and alive. I am not trying to be patronize you or anyone. I am coming from similar experience, that's all. .
> 
> You can never tell if a tank is fully cycled or mature because it cycles all the time...it's a 24/7 flux. Things go right or bad every day, and we fishkeepers, the setup, the input, is what influences it.  A mature tank  means you got the right balance of bacteria, non-pathogenic vs pathogenic,  enough oxygen, the right food, the right combination of critters, etc... But one has no way of knowing  this unless they have the gear to scientifically examine the setup and even then scientists are poor because they have poor knowledge of fish.. The rule is that if critters are doing fine, behaving fine and naturally, growing fine, then you have it right. If not, then the issue issue is related to cycling, , density of critters,compatibility of critters, enough filtration, too little flow, too little light too much light, too much food, too little food, wrong type of food, enough water changes, enough oxygen. Fiddling with chemicals does not help whatsoever even if you're a pro.
> 
> I always say, if there are issues, start daily 50% water changes religiously. Decrease the bio load on the tank. Increase filtration, although it takes a while for that to take effect, but a big external filter will help to prevent the same in the future. Critters already affected will not make it but the changes setup a stable tank for future critters.



Thank you sciencefiction.

I really thought after 20ish years keeping various tanks I would have no problem with supposedly easy shrimp, but every day is a learning day.

Fish are fine, all eating lots and healthy.

The tank has a 700 LPH HOB with surface skimmer running with bio media and floss.


----------



## Geoffrey Rea

Nick potts said:


> As for the bacter ae, i dose as recommended by Marks Shrimp Tanks i.e a very tiny amount, in this tank it literally is the most minute speck



And is this getting you good results overall?


----------



## sciencefiction

Nick potts said:


> I dropped the WC to 5% so i didn't shock anything in the tank with large swings in parameters.



Please, increase the water changes to 50%, not drop to 5%.  Don't add any chemicals. Let your tank stabilize to what comes out of your tab.
Don't rely on the years of keeping fish. I only got a clue when I started reading, which was about 15 years later.


----------



## Nick potts

Geoffrey Rea said:


> And is this getting you good results overall?



I wish i could say, but given the situation 

I gather it is a great food source, used by a lot of keepers/breeders for building up a biofilm


----------



## Geoffrey Rea

Apologies if the previous comments seem crass @Nick potts it is definitely not the intention. But this thread has struck a chord as your experience is not unique.

Pretty sure feeding has its place if you’re dealing with hundreds if not thousands of shrimp. However, the amount of cherries we’re considering caring for here is so small that if you provided a tank with nothing other than a sponge filter, substrate and some light they should be fine. From soft as it comes Lancashire water, to RO barely remineralised, to Cambridgeshire hard as it comes tap water - cherry shrimp have bred purely with the surface film available and no outside help. The colony size will be representative of the available food source.

Experience from speaking to others, as well as personal, has strongly led to the conclusion that most shrimp feeding products will only lead to problems or alternative forms of life we find undesirable in our tanks. They’re a con.

Being more practical... Do you have access to a water report for your local area? If calcium carbonate and magnesium are even marginally available in your tap, replenishing the water column regularly with large water changes will help moulting. If this process is hindered it will upset your cherries as they will not be able to grow which is why @Siege and @sciencefiction are offering good (relatively cheap) advice with water changes.

It’s an easier first port of call before investigating disease.


----------



## Conort2

@Nick potts, could you put up a photo of the complete aquarium?

that photo of the dead shrimp shows a pretty dirty substrate and the water looked pretty cloudy however it may have just been that picture.

If it was me i would stop feeding completely. I have hundreds of the things and I don’t target feed them at all, they get whatever they can steal from the fish, which isn’t much. Otherwise they are continually grazing at the biofilm and getting what they need from there.

Im also not too sure where this myth has come from that cherry shrimp are super sensitive and can’t hack water changes. The line bred caridina I can believe but neocardina should be bullet proof. Up your water changes to 50percent as recommended as the 5 percent won’t be making a dent, especially if you’re over feeding.Plus the fish will love the larger water changes too!

cheers

Conor


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,





Nick potts said:


> I dropped the WC to 5% so i didn't shock anything in the tank with large swings in parameters.





Nick potts said:


> i have mostly kept saltwater tanks and always had a good selection of inverts


I agree with the others, I'd definitely change a bit more water. Freshwater is much more variable than salt water, which is almost infinitely buffered and consistent in its physical characteristics. Organisms that have evolved in the sea (or Lake Tanganyika) don't have any ability to adapt to environmental change, they have experienced a steady state for millions of years, but freshwater isn't like that.  





Conort2 said:


> If it was me i would stop feeding completely. I have hundreds of the things and I don’t target feed them at all,


I would try just adding green vegetables for a while, things like <"nettle leaves etc">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## LondonDragon

I had similar issues with blues on my old OK soil, I then capped the soil with a thick layer of sand as I could not be bothered to redo the whole tank and the second batch I got are doing fine, have not seen any berried ones yet so time will tell if they do breed well.


----------



## Nick potts

Conort2 said:


> @Nick potts, could you put up a photo of the complete aquarium?
> 
> that photo of the dead shrimp shows a pretty dirty substrate and the water looked pretty cloudy however it may have just been that picture.
> 
> If it was me i would stop feeding completely. I have hundreds of the things and I don’t target feed them at all, they get whatever they can steal from the fish, which isn’t much. Otherwise they are continually grazing at the biofilm and getting what they need from there.
> 
> Im also not too sure where this myth has come from that cherry shrimp are super sensitive and can’t hack water changes. The line bred caridina I can believe but neocardina should be bullet proof. Up your water changes to 50percent as recommended as the 5 percent won’t be making a dent, especially if you’re over feeding.Plus the fish will love the larger water changes too!
> 
> cheers
> 
> Conor
> 
> Thanks Conor. I will get a FTS up later.
> 
> 
> Happy to up water change volume, I prefer larger changes personally and was doing larger changes on this tank originally, i dropped the amount in response incase it was shock or similar causing issues.





dw1305 said:


> Hi all,I agree with the others, I'd definitely change a bit more water. Freshwater is much more variable than salt water, which is almost infinitely buffered and consistent in its physical characteristics. Organisms that have evolved in the sea (or Lake Tanganyika) don't have any ability to adapt to environmental change, they have experienced a steady state for millions of years, but freshwater isn't like that.  I would try just adding green vegetables for a while, things like <"nettle leaves etc">.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Cheers Darrel, I will up the WC amount. My saltwater tanks get 50% changes


----------



## Nick potts

Geoffrey Rea said:


> Apologies if the previous comments seem crass @Nick potts it is definitely not the intention. But this thread has struck a chord as your experience is not unique.
> 
> Pretty sure feeding has its place if you’re dealing with hundreds if not thousands of shrimp. However, the amount of cherries we’re considering caring for here is so small that if you provided a tank with nothing other than a sponge filter, substrate and some light they should be fine. From soft as it comes Lancashire water, to RO barely remineralised, to Cambridgeshire hard as it comes tap water - cherry shrimp have bred purely with the surface film available and no outside help. The colony size will be representative of the available food source.
> 
> Experience from speaking to others, as well as personal, has strongly led to the conclusion that most shrimp feeding products will only lead to problems or alternative forms of life we find undesirable in our tanks. They’re a con.
> 
> Being more practical... Do you have access to a water report for your local area? If calcium carbonate and magnesium are even marginally available in your tap, replenishing the water column regularly with large water changes will help moulting. If this process is hindered it will upset your cherries as they will not be able to grow which is why @Siege and @sciencefiction are offering good (relatively cheap) advice with water changes.
> 
> It’s an easier first port of call before investigating disease.



No need to apologise Geoffrey

I will cut out the bacter ae and just continue with the occasional nettle meal.

My water report can be seen here https://www.southwestwater.co.uk/siteassets/water-quality/2019-wq-reports/zp11-wq-report-2019.pdf

States 13 mg/l Ca on their main page for my postcode


----------



## Geoffrey Rea

Nick potts said:


> States 13 mg/l Ca on their main page for my postcode



Yeah, that’s very low. You can use a product like JBL Aquadur or purchase salts to increase your waters calcium and magnesium content.

12.83 mg/l (ppm) is 0.721 °dH


----------



## Nick potts

Thank you again Geoffrey.

JBL Aquadur ordered.

If I aim to get my WC water to GH 6 and KH 5, would you advise raising the tank water slowly first over a week or so to match what i will be changing?


----------



## sparkyweasel

Nick potts said:


> I gather it is a great food source, used by a lot of keepers/breeders for building up a biofilm


Sounds like another product that does something that would have happened anyway.


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi Folks,


LondonDragon said:


> I had similar issues with blues on my old OK soil, I then capped the soil with a thick layer of sand as I could not be bothered to redo the whole tank and the second batch I got are doing fine...



That sounds very relevant to @Nick potts' tank setup. @LondonDragon, what was your 'old OK soil'? Is there something in it that the blue shrimp may have been eating? Is @Nick potts using the same soil? Is it the Tropica stuff?

JPC


----------



## Geoffrey Rea

Nick potts said:


> If I aim to get my WC water to GH 6 and KH 5, would you advise raising the tank water slowly first over a week or so to match what i will be changing?



You could measure out what you need for the tank volume and add it bit by bit to the tank over a couple of days if you’re being cautious. Can’t do any harm stretching the change in parameters out. Then just chuck it in at water change thereafter.

Your shrimp will welcome the additional calcium and magnesium. Hopefully you’ll see them moulting immediately after water changes.


----------



## Nick potts

jaypeecee said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> 
> That sounds very relevant to @Nick potts' tank setup. @LondonDragon, what was your 'old OK soil'? Is there something in it that the blue shrimp may have been eating? Is @Nick potts using the same soil? Is it the Tropica stuff?
> 
> JPC



The soil I am using is Fluval stratum, But I will be taking this out over the next few water changes. Something I read made some sense (though may not be anything to do with my issues) Fluval is an active substrate which reduces gh/kh/ph and is best used with RO water, otherwise you are adding tap water which the substrate is then going to buffer causing the params to be all over.


----------



## Nick potts

Geoffrey Rea said:


> You could measure out what you need for the tank volume and add it bit by bit to the tank over a couple of days if you’re being cautious. Can’t do any harm stretching the change in parameters out. Then just chuck it in at water change thereafter.
> 
> Your shrimp will welcome the additional calcium and magnesium. Hopefully you’ll see them moulting immediately after water changes.



Thank you again.

My caution comes from my reef keeping where any changes are done over weeks rather than days. I think I will slowly raise it over the next few days, after which i should be able to make up my WC to exactly match the tank


----------



## Siege

i wouldn’t worry about all that stuff.

cherries are as hard as nails given a clean tank.

to give you an idea on a sub 100L tank I usually do one massive water change followed by another. Often a few on a nano tank.

ive rescaped 30L tanks with fresh tropica soil and bunged the shrimp straight back in.

They donot mind fluctuations.

The important thing is a clean tank. Remove all the Fluval stuff, it really is horrible stuff and I think there is a lot of waste there. That is where your issues lye.

Add some soil. replant and get the shrimp back in. Large water changes daily for a week. The only caveat is donot do this with ADA Amazonia!

Just get in and do it really, donot feed them and let them do their stuff, your only job is to remineralise the fresh water somewhat and keep the tank clean. They love freshwater! The more plants the better!

Don’t overthink it. 😃


----------



## LondonDragon

jaypeecee said:


> Hi Folks,
> That sounds very relevant to @Nick potts' tank setup. @LondonDragon, what was your 'old OK soil'? Is there something in it that the blue shrimp may have been eating? Is @Nick potts using the same soil? Is it the Tropica stuff?


OK stands for Oliver Knott  the soil has been in there since 2012 at least! has a large bunch of Anubias that I did not want to disturb so in the end capped it with sand, since then the other shrimp I have in there which I got from the Shrimp King himself Chris Laukhaup at Vivarium in 2011 have since thrived also, they were not breeding that much and now there are hundreds of the little things which I have no idea what to do with them because they are not that interesting, I have a photo on my instragam account!


----------



## Nick potts

Siege said:


> i wouldn’t worry about all that stuff.
> 
> cherries are as hard as nails given a clean tank.
> 
> to give you an idea on a sub 100L tank I usually do one massive water change followed by another. Often a few on a nano tank.
> 
> ive rescaped 30L tanks with fresh tropica soil and bunged the shrimp straight back in.
> 
> They donot mind fluctuations.
> 
> The important thing is a clean tank. Remove all the Fluval stuff, it really is horrible stuff and I think there is a lot of waste there. That is where your issues lye.
> 
> Add some soil. replant and get the shrimp back in. Large water changes daily for a week. The only caveat is donot do this with ADA Amazonia!
> 
> Just get in and do it really, donot feed them and let them do their stuff, your only job is to remineralise the fresh water somewhat and keep the tank clean. They love freshwater! The more plants the better!
> 
> Don’t overthink it. 😃



Thank you Siege.

I have just done a larger WC and had a good hover of the substrate.

As for the soil, I am going to remove completely and replace with sand, the tank is 99% epiphytes anyway.


----------



## Nick potts

VIDEO

Video of one of the survivors.

Is that fungus, infertile eggs? Of just my poor eyesight


----------



## Conort2

Nick potts said:


> VIDEO
> 
> Video of one of the survivors.
> 
> Is that fungus, infertile eggs? Of just my poor eyesight


Hmmm could be a few eggs quite hard to see. They’re in the right place to be eggs. I think once you up the cleanliness in this tank you’ll be able to get the numbers to rebound quite quickly. The things are like cockroaches when they get going.

cheers

conor


----------



## wormvortex

I had no luck with the different coloured shrimps. They all died on me as well. Then I purchased some red cherry shrimp from a guy locally with the same tap water as me and since then they won't stop breeding. Must have 50+ easily now.


----------



## sciencefiction

Conort2 said:


> Im also not too sure where this myth has come from that cherry shrimp are super sensitive and can’t hack water changes.



Me neither. I agree it's a total myth that keeps coming up, not sure why. I've kept cherries for probably over 8 years now, always with large water changes every week, more like 70%. I think when I started I was told the same, not to do large water changes on a shrimp tank..... I am glad the shrimp do not read internet. Mine are tough and breed like rabbits. I only started with 5 shrimp and I have had hundreds since, kept the same way.  Plants, lots of water changes and oversized filter is the combination that works for me. They also love the pre-filter sponge of the external and keep it spotless. The babies stay in the little sponge holes.


----------



## veerserif

I wonder if different sources have different hardness? Or earlier high-grade strains being less tolerant? I'm planning on keeping cherries soon, so am watching this thread with interest.


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @sciencefiction 


sciencefiction said:


> They also love the pre-filter sponge of the external and keep it spotless.



My Amanos are the same on an air-driven sponge filter. Shrimp seem to be 'at home' where there are optimum conditions for microorganisms (infusoria) to develop. And, there are a few liquid food suspensions, which promote this. _Bacter AE_ seems to be one of them but I've used something called _Roti-Rich_. And, I think some people use _Liquifry No. 1_.

JPC


----------



## Nick potts

Thanks all again, you've all been a great help. Hears hoping these changes etc make a difference.

Also, there is a sponge filter in there, only there really for a feeding station as the HOB does the heavy work.


----------



## Nick potts

Well, things don't seem to be much better.

Since the last posting, I have brought water parameters up to more standard values of GH 6 KH 5 TDS 240, all other params as before.

Added some new shrimp from my LFS, only three to test. 4 days in another death and 1 I can't find, it may be in there but hidden. The 1 I can see appears good, browsing the leaves and woodwork.

Really not sure where to go from here, do I just give up on the shrimp as they are kind of sucking the fun out of things now  More annoying is my dad's tank is barely maintained at all and never gets a WC but he has shrimp in there doing fine


----------



## Big G

Hello Nick,

just wanted to sympathise with losing the shrimp. I’m gutted for you. I can’t really bring anything to the table that the very experienced guys on here have already but having read the whole thread I would humbly offer the following if for no other reason than at this point than by my reckoning you have little to lose; (This from a guy that can’t grow plants, that collects different genera of algae like football stickers but has a seemlingly healthy and gently growing community of  blue neos for now by luck more than judgement). Caveat emptor.

1. I too am deeply drawn to Marks ST vids and methodology  however his rigs are about as far detached from my little tank as almost could be the case - RO, he has plants but not many and almost always Sußwassertang or mosses, predominantly but not exclusively Caradina rather than Neocaradina, sponge filters on Aquel Pat Mini powerheads, cull tank etc. Rightly or wrongly I decided that I would do bigger water changes, like 40-50% as at this point in my knowledge and experience I see the sense in refreshing water in such a small closed system to replicate the mineral refreshment of nature to some extent.  I was worried they would not react well but made sure to use water that was within 0.2 c of the water I was taking out. Sometimes it sits for a bit, sometimes not, always dechlorinator , in this case API Tap Water Conditioner. I think they’re fine and I can’t observe any adverse behaviour in any given subsequent 24h period having changed only this single parameter at a given point. I‘m increasingly of the belief they’re pretty tough little things and some of the turbidity I generate in weekly tank cleaning must push a lot of stuff through their little systems. I’ve even once or twice done a further 30% water change within an hour of the first if I think I need to. Marks’ Caradina I would suggest are far more demanding.

2. I also dose Bacter AE the way Mark suggests. Really to offer the babies something extra that’s mobile.19ltr tank. I just measured it out - equivalent volume of ten grains of Tropica soil powder i.e. the small grained version or half what I think looks like a rice grain. Half filled API test tube from kit in tank water, shaken, poured in return flow of filter pump, which remains on (although I see the logic of not doing so). Daily. The critters show little interest in other food sources I offer so I’m guessing they’re not starving. If I thought it was an issue though or there was a crisis and I was looking to alter a parameter I would cut that down or ditch it without fear. Wait a week, offer some of that nettle mix you have (guessing it’s MST stuff or similar)in a glass dish (so that the spread is contained and can be removed, syphoned out) and see if they’re interested. If not and  doing their usual thing of nipping away at surfaces then the Bacter seems unnecessary. Mark himself warns of many people running into issues with it. Not sure if this is significant but the only time I’ve had a bunch of babies die on me was a day that I forgot to remove the glass dish rather than whip it out after 2-3 hrs and I was trying a brand and variety of snack food I had not before (and purely out of suspicion ) I never will again. Could be the leaving it down or the snack....or because the sun shines in the east. We can only be guided by as near to a systematic approach as possible and hope we’re not an outlier.

I really hope you get a handle on what’s going on and get a thriving community going. I totally get how you would be reticent about repeating this as I would be too. You are doing your best though and have the input of a group of very knowledgable people above. Good luck.


----------



## rebel

Nick potts said:


> Really not sure where to go from here, do I just give up on the shrimp as they are kind of sucking the fun out of things now


If you've excluded the water chemistry/food/filter etc then you will need to change the tank. I've had one tank (bought second hand) that I couldn't keep shrimp in, no matter what I tried. I suspect copper leaching or something.

Or try some shrimp from your dad's tank also.


----------



## Nick potts

Thanks @Big G 



rebel said:


> If you've excluded the water chemistry/food/filter etc then you will need to change the tank. I've had one tank (bought second hand) that I couldn't keep shrimp in, no matter what I tried. I suspect copper leaching or something.
> 
> Or try some shrimp from your dad's tank also.



Hi mate. The shrimp tanks were brand new. I have no idea if a new tank could contain copper in its manufacture, but test results came back negative on copper tests.

I currently have 3 tanks sitting, I plan on leaving them for some months and trying one more time with shrimp.

Trying with a few of my dad's shrimp is a good idea.


----------



## Kelvin12

G'day,  very new to the group but just a suggestion I heard a while back was the incorrect silicone used in the tank construction.  Some are branded "aquarium safe" etc but are not entirely so.


----------



## jameson_uk

I experienced similar to you.    I bought 10 really nice bloody mary shrimp and slowly these died off one by one.   I then did a good clean of the tank, bought lots of things I read about, tested everything, added another 10 bloody mary and again they died off one by one.   I spent hours drip acclimating them and trying to get everything perfect but it didn't seem to help.

My issues I think was that my water was too hard.   My GH is 12 out the tap and I think most of the shrimp I was buying were bred in water that was around GH6.    I was often seeing the white ring of death.

I bought yet another set of 10 shrimp and ended up down to my last two.    I was just about to give up when I started seeing babies.   I now have 50+ in the tank and they are thriving.

I did a couple of things but basically I think the key was stability and feeding:

Cut my tap water with 1/3 RO (I started off with distilled water from Tesco) to drop my GH to 8
Started doing water changes via a drip method.   I have been doing about 2l a week and I started just using air line and a little tap to drip the new water back in
I have started regularly feeding GlasGarten Mineral Junkie (and I think this was a big factor)
I added an oxydator (I don't think this really made much difference in all honesty but I was grasping at straws)
I added some mulberry leaves every so often
I have thought about getting blue shrimp at some point going forward and if I am to do this I would start off by trying to match the parameters they were bred in.  I would then very slowly change the water to my parameters. I think the main thing is that shrimp don't cope well with change.

I suspect you are experiencing different issues (I am dosing copper in my ferts) but just to highlight that I was down to two shrimp (luckily male and female) and loosing 28 shrimp.    Something seems to have clicked and now they are doing great.    My advice would be take things slow, hopefully the shrimp will settle down and start breeding.   Once you get there then you can start tweaking the paramaters.


----------



## Aqua360

It's easy to overcomplicate shrimp keeping, speaking from experience. 

A little goes a long way in shrimp tanks, especially with additives and food.


----------



## rebel

Aqua360 said:


> It's easy to overcomplicate shrimp keeping, speaking from experience


This is true but it's hard to understand multiple repetitive shrimp deaths (unexplained) unless you have experienced it yourself. I have vast experience in this matter in the range of $1000 worth of shrimp. I simply gave up as I couldn't find the variable that was responsible.


----------



## LondonDragon

I have found that certain species of shrimp tolerate different water parameters better than others too and you must cater for each species needs. 
Recently I had my red cherry shrimp population disappear for no reason, I have this colony going since 2012, and they have been doing great and always had around 50-60 shrimp in the tank, over the space of a couple of weeks most disappeared and no changes in the maintenance of the tank, so a little bizarre.


----------



## Aqua360

rebel said:


> This is true but it's hard to understand multiple repetitive shrimp deaths (unexplained) unless you have experienced it yourself. I have vast experience in this matter in the range of $1000 worth of shrimp. I simply gave up as I couldn't find the variable that was responsible.


Discounting unknown factors, which definitely can and do occur, the point I was trying to convey was to cut back on adding anything to the water...in the example from this thread, I'd try to reduce as many factors as possible down to key qualifiers such as TDS, water hardness and so on, as a good footing to solving the issue.

OP, as others may have said, I'd test TDS, water hardness firstly, then nitrates; though in a shrimp tank bioload never should really be an issue if managed properly, still worth testing. You can then hopefully match up your water parameters accordingly with your chosen shrimp type


----------



## GHNelson

That looks like a 0.1 reading to me!




hoggie


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## Nick potts

Glad this thread has been bumped up.

I ending leaving the tank shrimpless until about 2 weeks ago when I spotted 2 lone blue dreams in my LFS, added and watched them for 2 weeks, they seemed to do just fine. A few days ago I added a further 10 shrimp, I have had 1 death from this batch which I am putting down to a casualty from moving/acclimatisation etc.

I will keep a close eye on these for the next few weeks.

I am considering an RO unit, even though my tap water is pretty good, TDS 70, KH1, GH1 <1 Nitrate, the PH is rather high at around 8.4 to 8.6, I then need to add remineraliser with further increases PH, so hopefully an RO unit will bring that down.


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## dw1305

Hi all,


Nick potts said:


> TDS 70, KH1, GH1 <1 Nitrate, the PH is rather high at around 8.4 to 8.6,


The high pH is almost certainly because of sodium hydroxide (NaOH) injection. You can only get that combination of low dGH, dKH and TDS when you add a strong base (like NaOH) to fairly low solute water.  NaOH will raise pH, when it disassociates into a Na+ and OH- ion, it is a <"strong base">, and pH will rise because you've added an OH- ion, *but it doesn't add any buffering*,  this is added by <"weak bases such as "limestone" (CaCO3)">.


Nick potts said:


> I then need to add remineraliser with further increase in pH


That is strange, any salts you add shouldn't raise pH any further, the CO2 ~ carbonate equilibrium has a pH value of about pH 8 at 400ppm of atmospheric CO2. You can only get a higher pH with greater addition of a stronger base.

In terms of Cherry Shrimps your water is still really soft, and I found that Cherry shrimps <"don't do well in very soft water">. You could add <"a calcium carbonate source">, or you could use a <"soluble carbonate"> (like KHCO3) and a soluble calcium source (like CaCl.6H2O)  in your re-mineraliser.

cheers Darrel


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## Nick potts

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> The high pH is almost certainly because of sodium hydroxide (NaOH) injection. You can only get that combination of low dGH, dKH and TDS when you add a strong base (like NaOH) to fairly low solute water.  NaOH will raise pH, when it disassociates into a Na+ and OH- ion, it is a <"strong base">, and pH will rise because you've added an OH- ion, *but it doesn't add any buffering*,  this is added by <"weak bases such as "limestone" (CaCO3)">.
> 
> That is strange, any salts you add shouldn't raise pH any further, the CO2 ~ carbonate equilibrium has a pH value of about pH 8 at 400ppm of atmospheric CO2. You can only get a higher pH with greater addition of a stronger base.
> 
> In terms of Cherry Shrimps your water is still really soft, and I found that Cherry shrimps <"don't do well in very soft water">. You could add <"a calcium carbonate source">, or you could use a <"soluble carbonate"> (like KHCO3) and a soluble calcium source (like CaCl.6H2O)  in your re-mineraliser.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Thanks Darrel.

In all honesty, the chemistry is all a bit lost on me 

I know my water is too soft straight out of the tap, which is why I am adding the JBL aquadur, I aim for a KH of 5 and GH of 6. Could the PH rise be because I add an airstone to my water to mix it up?

I will mix up a new batch later and test both the tap and mix after adding the JBL

I still think an RO unit might be the way to go, just so I have more control.


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## Nick potts

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> That is strange, any salts you add shouldn't raise pH any further, the CO2 ~ carbonate equilibrium has a pH value of about pH 8 at 400ppm of atmospheric CO2. You can only get a higher pH with greater addition of a stronger base.
> 
> cheers Darrel


You were absolutely right Darrel. Just tested params were

Tap water TDS 75, KH1, GH2, PH8.4

Water mixed to 200 TDS, KH6, GH7, PH 8.4. The TDS is higher than I would like so I may lower it to 150 and see where that gets me with the kg and gh.

I am going to leave the water to sit till this eve and will test it again.


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## dw1305

Hi all,


Nick potts said:


> Could the PH rise be because I add an airstone to my water to mix it up?


Yes it could, oxygen is the base in OH- and you can potentially get pH values in the pH10 range in water that is <"super-saturated with oxygen">. Because the pH scale is a (base^10) log scale, pH10 is 100 (10^2) times more basic than pH8.


Nick potts said:


> the chemistry is all a bit lost on me


I understand that, I'm <"not very good at chemistry"> and I had to get somebody to explain to me what buffering etc. actually meant in practice, before I could fit all the "moving bits" together.


Nick potts said:


> the JBL aquadur


I think that is OK, it isn't a product I've ever used, but other than being expensive (@Zeus. ) it should work. Because of the limited solubility of the compounds of group 2 metals, (that form the Ca++ &, Mg++ ions that we measure as dGH)  I'd guess that the salts it contains are calcium chloride (CaCl2.6H2O) and potassium (bi)carbonate (K2CO3/KHCO3).

I'd definitely add some dead leaves (_Terminalia catappa _etc.) to your tank, the shrimps will eat them, but the real advantage is that the tannins & humic substances should chelate any heavy metals your soft water picked up. The idea of the NaOH addition is that the rise in pH will precipitate out any heavy metals as insoluble hydroxides etc. but if the alkalinity falls then the pH will drop as well and any heavy metal ions may go back into solution.

cheers Darrel


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## Zeus.

dw1305 said:


> I think that is OK, it isn't a product I've ever used, but other than being expensive (@Zeus. ) it should work. Because of the limited solubility of the compounds of group 2 metals, (that form the Ca++ &, Mg++ ions that we measure as dGH) I'd guess that the salts it contains are calcium chloride (CaCl2.6H2O) and potassium (bi)carbonate (K2CO3/KHCO3).


Doing a perfect clone is doable but little tricky as they have suppield the %(W/W) for cations and Ions 




Which is typical sales trick to supply the data in a format your not use to. Would need to workout the mass of element used for various salt combos and compare the mass for cations and ions so used the quicker route



So made quick Bespoke remineralizer by trail and error and.. 






Could of spent more time on it and got it too 18.75grams, so £0.09p a dose compared to £0.60p per dose.
Or a @ceg4048  dose would be teaspoon of epsom salts, teaspoon of Calcium Chloride and two teaspoons of Bicarb and call it right


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## Nick potts

Zeus. said:


> Doing a perfect clone is doable but little tricky as they have suppield the %(W/W) for cations and Ions
> View attachment 156616
> Which is typical sales trick to supply the data in a format your not use to. Would need to workout the mass of element used for various salt combos and compare the mass for cations and ions so used the quicker route
> View attachment 156617
> So made quick Bespoke remineralizer by trail and error and..
> View attachment 156618
> View attachment 156619
> Could of spent more time on it and got it too 18.75grams, so £0.09p a dose compared to £0.60p per dose.
> Or a @ceg4048  dose would be teaspoon of epsom salts, teaspoon of Calcium Chloride and two teaspoons of Bicarb and call it right


Thank you for taking the time @Zeus. 

For the amount I use, less than half a teaspoon, I don't mind buying a premade mix.


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## Nick potts

Well, I was going to update the thread with good news, but found 2 dead shrimp this evening at WC time 

These new shrimp have been in the tank around 5-6 weeks.

They all seemed to be doing well, eating, active etc. I have changed the way I do things, most notably I now do drip water changes. I haven't added any new stock, the only thing that I have added is a feeding tube and tray.

Constant death is starting to wear thin, especially for an animal that is supposed to be easy to keep. I should point out I have had the same pair of Amano shrimp in the tank for months and they are perfectly fine,


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## jameson_uk

Nick potts said:


> Well, I was going to update the thread with good news, but found 2 dead shrimp this evening at WC time
> 
> These new shrimp have been in the tank around 5-6 weeks.
> 
> They all seemed to be doing well, eating, active etc. I have changed the way I do things, most notably I now do drip water changes. I haven't added any new stock, the only thing that I have added is a feeding tube and tray.
> 
> Constant death is starting to wear thin, especially for an animal that is supposed to be easy to keep. I should point out I have had the same pair of Amano shrimp in the tank for months and they are perfectly fine,


Amanos are bullet proof and don't seem to mind fluctuating conditions.

My experience is that shrimps struggle with changing parameters and the first generation you add to the tank still want the parameters they were bred in.   T
The next generations (Have you seen any babies? ) seem to do better so if you see babies then I wouldn't be totally concerned.   Remind me what their diet is?


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## Nick potts

jameson_uk said:


> Amanos are bullet proof and don't seem to mind fluctuating conditions.
> 
> My experience is that shrimps struggle with changing parameters and the first generation you add to the tank still want the parameters they were bred in.   T
> The next generations (Have you seen any babies? ) seem to do better so if you see babies then I wouldn't be totally concerned.   Remind me what their diet is?


Thanks mate. Yeah the amanos do seem bomb proof.

I have not seen any babies or berried females.

Food is a mixture including hikari shrimp pellets, marks shrimp tanks complete range, bacter ae, occasional veggies and a mix of different leaf litter. I don't feed them directly very often as the leaf litter and biofilm would supply most foods.


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## Nick potts

Well, finally after all the issues i seem to be getting some results.

No deaths for a while now and finally we have berried shrimp , now I finally remember what I really enjoy about the hobby.

I doubt it will help anyone, but in case it does, some of the changes I made to the shrimp tanks.

Added a lot more botanicals, jackfruit and Indian almond leaves, alder cones, bogwood and lots more mosses, the water is not to my liking colour wise, but it is a compromise I will live with for now.

Bi-weekly 2 litre water changes, the water is dripped back in at around 3 drips per second. I wasn't going to continue this but it is so simple that I have, I just place a small container with airline tap stuck through the bottom to the top of the tank and forget about it.

RO water remineralised to 180 TDS, another that I am not sure made all that much difference, my tap is 70ppm TDS , but now I have control of the water and can use it if I try bee shrimp.

Daily feeding of general food, this rotates between a few brands, then every other day I add bacter ae in tiny amounts, this I feel was a key one. I know a lot of people say don't feed daily or at all, but my shrimp and snails eat all that is put in there.


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## Big G

Fingers crossed, it sounds more promising Nick.

I saw that drip method on MST recently. Makes sense. Moving to smaller WC’s myself in my more established tank.
Would Purigen remove the tannics but leave humics?  Mark seems to pre-soak the botanicals to remove tannins but still believes they have benefits. Think he has Purigen in his Pat Minis/HOB’s etc. I really don’t know.

Upping my game too with a general thrust towards greater continuity so watching your thread with interest. Blues have temporarily stopped breeding. I’m convinced a couple of females are one molt away from breeding but it’s hard to see saddles in some of them so could be just wishful thinking.

I’ve put the odd combination of pollen, montmorillionite and Bacter ae/ Marks biomix in tiny quantities in a test tube solution for distribution with the filter off with outflow covered for a few minutes to let much of the suspension get deeper into the tank then filter back on to distribute the rest. Nothing for a few days then if they dive on a piece of blanched courgette or kale they can have it until they lose interest or its just spine. If not, after an hour or two it gets whipped out. Repeat. Can’t say if that’s the way but so far no deaths. I saw a strange wiggling thing the other day when I forget and left something in over night but not since. Also a few locally collected dry and blanched Mulberry leaves get left in (small fractions). I keep an eye on that. Back up biofilm/food so to speak. If it gets eaten slowly- good. If they jump on it biofilm must be more scarce. Tiny measure of Bacter etc and so on.
Odd bit of Sirakura Ebi Dami or another prepared product once a week as more of a colony head counter than anything. They usually go nuts for it if hungry.

All the best mate

Bg


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## Nick potts

Big G said:


> Fingers crossed, it sounds more promising Nick.
> 
> I saw that drip method on MST recently. Makes sense. Moving to smaller WC’s myself in my more established tank.
> Would Purigen remove the tannics but leave humics?  Mark seems to pre-soak the botanicals to remove tannins but still believes they have benefits. Think he has Purigen in his Pat Minis/HOB’s etc. I really don’t know.
> 
> Upping my game too with a general thrust towards greater continuity so watching your thread with interest. Blues have temporarily stopped breeding. I’m convinced a couple of females are one molt away from breeding but it’s hard to see saddles in some of them so could be just wishful thinking.
> 
> I’ve put the odd combination of pollen, montmorillionite and Bacter ae/ Marks biomix in tiny quantities in a test tube solution for distribution with the filter off with outflow covered for a few minutes to let much of the suspension get deeper into the tank then filter back on to distribute the rest. Nothing for a few days then if they dive on a piece of blanched courgette or kale they can have it until they lose interest or its just spine. If not, after an hour or two it gets whipped out. Repeat. Can’t say if that’s the way but so far no deaths. I saw a strange wiggling thing the other day when I forget and left something in over night but not since. Also a few locally collected dry and blanched Mulberry leaves get left in (small fractions). I keep an eye on that. Back up biofilm/food so to speak. If it gets eaten slowly- good. If they jump on it biofilm must be more scarce. Tiny measure of Bacter etc and so on.
> Odd bit of Sirakura Ebi Dami or another prepared product once a week as more of a colony head counter than anything. They usually go nuts for it if hungry.
> 
> All the best mate
> 
> Bg


Thanks Bg

The small size WC and drip method were from Marks routine, I have also seen a lot of successful breeders do similar, plus it is rather simple to do which is a bonus.

Your right on the purigen, Mark does use it in his tanks, and it may be something to consider if the tannins really start to bother me, but at the moment I am just happy the tank and shrimps seem to be doing well.

I hear good things about the Sirakura foods, so will have to pick some up when I start running low. The bacter ae I just chuck into the bubbles from the sponge filters which seems to work well. The other foods I put in a dish and it is usually gone within the hour, mostly because the amano's pinch it, so I may move them to another tank to help clean that one 

Another thing I added which I believe helped is snails, I know many don't like them but they are great for cleaning up any left over foods etc, which means I can feed more and not worry so much.


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## Big G

Agree. Snails were a game changer for me. I was not keen originally but have played it fairly safe with Nerites. Wouldn't be without them now. Entertaining  to watch, great on the Anubias and glass, no hassle, most amazing 'shut down ' flap when they scare themselves by maybe falling off a leaf tip etc.

I'll not be the first to name them Scutter, Gary, Patricia (after it was clear the relationship with Gary was more than platonic), Squidward,  Plankton and ,of course, Krabbs. Nor the last.

All small horned Zebras apart from Scutter who's a bigger Tiger.

All the best

Bg


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## Big G

Hope this is an omen for you going forward Nick as we’re reading from the same hymn sheet on much of this;

....my first berried female, since I changed things up, appeared at feeding time - like it was no biggie last night. 

For the record I dialled up more consistent temperatures at a slightly higher target range around 72-73f with the heater much more in the pump return’s flow path rather than heating its own static surroundings, couple of small Catappa leaves, smaller WC’s, couple of new Alder cones , a Mulberry leaf or two, fresh blanched veg, upping my filtration media rinsing cycle, a thicker, more grown in plant mass, more consistent mini feeds based on reactions rather than dogma and a regular tiny background powder/suspension feed of Bacter AE/ a biomass builder, pollen and (montmorillionite at WC.)

Could be one of those, all of them or none of ‘em and just some kind of internal, diurnal trigger in the colony. She may not carry to birth and it might be a one off but we’ll see.  I’m chuffed either way.

All the best,
Bg


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## Nick potts

Big G said:


> Hope this is an omen for you going forward Nick as we’re reading from the same hymn sheet on much of this;
> 
> ....my first berried female, since I changed things up, appeared at feeding time - like it was no biggie last night.
> 
> For the record I dialled up more consistent temperatures at a slightly higher target range around 72-73f with the heater much more in the pump return’s flow path rather than heating its own static surroundings, couple of small Catappa leaves, smaller WC’s, couple of new Alder cones , a Mulberry leaf or two, fresh blanched veg, upping my filtration media rinsing cycle, a thicker, more grown in plant mass, more consistent mini feeds based on reactions rather than dogma and a regular tiny background powder/suspension feed of Bacter AE/ a biomass builder, pollen and (montmorillionite at WC.)
> 
> Could be one of those, all of them or none of ‘em and just some kind of internal, diurnal trigger in the colony. She may not carry to birth and it might be a one off but we’ll see.  I’m chuffed either way.
> 
> All the best,
> Bg


Well after spotting the berried shrimp, it has either dropped the eggs or less likely they have hatched (I don't think they were incubated long enough and not spotted any babies).

My tanks are all run at room temp, which is pretty stable at 20-21c.


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## rebel

Hi Nick, 

I don't think you have isolated the cause for the deaths. Good to hear maybe they have slowed down.

There is something seriously amiss though because I have kept cherries in 0-30 degrees, 0 to very hard water, low to very high CO2, 60% water changes with temp fluctuations of 5 degrees. Once I left some in a bucket in my shed which goes down to -2  during winter with no filter etc and they still survived and even bred a little. The very same shrimp dropped like flies when I put them in a Fluval edge I bought second hand. I could never keep ANY fish or shrimp in that tank no matter how hard I tried for 3 years. I have never been happier to find a tank leaking one day! I never reused that filter.


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## Big G

rebel said:


> Hi Nick,
> 
> I don't think you have isolated the cause for the deaths. Good to hear maybe they have slowed down.
> 
> There is something seriously amiss though because I have kept cherries in 0-30 degrees, 0 to very hard water, low to very high CO2, 60% water changes with temp fluctuations of 5 degrees. Once I left some in a bucket in my shed which goes down to -2  during winter with no filter etc and they still survived and even bred a little. The very same shrimp dropped like flies when I put them in a Fluval edge I bought second hand. I could never keep ANY fish or shrimp in that tank no matter how hard I tried for 3 years. I have never been happier to find a tank leaking one day! I never reused that filter.


Fair points Rebel.

If the deaths continue to mount up then there’s something else, more fundamental amiss.

Curious to know if you ever got to the bottom of the Fluval Edge issue? (apologies to Nick for the tangent)

I could hazard a few guesses being a Speccy  myself but don’t want to pre-suppose.

all the best
Bg


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## rebel

Big G said:


> Curious to know if you ever got to the bottom of the Fluval Edge issue?


Never. While I can repair that tank potentially I refuse to sell it to another as I thought it was either the tank or the filter.

One possibility was stability due to the tank being small but I had those shrimp in a bucket in a shed for goodness sake!

Sometimes you have to just move on. I have hundreds of shrimp in my display tank which has major fluctutations on all sorts of parameters due to fast 60% water changes.


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## Big G

That's very interesting.
I seem to remember a lot of people having issues of various sorts when it was quite a gateway tank for some.

They are/were widely available, novel and, at least on the face of it, a convenient , competitively priced all-in-one.

Perhaps a bit of form over function. Neos are pretty robust, as you say, but there are limits.

If someone is having to battle the constraints of the design on top of get to grip with the funtamentals it's a big ask.

If you really don't want it maybe we can talk turkey sometime? Think I could try it strictly as a plant scape for anubias and java. A few snails if I can hold it steady.  Might be a nice little night light in the right spot.

Sorry for the digression.

All the best

Bg


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## Nick potts

rebel said:


> Hi Nick,
> 
> I don't think you have isolated the cause for the deaths. Good to hear maybe they have slowed down.
> 
> There is something seriously amiss though because I have kept cherries in 0-30 degrees, 0 to very hard water, low to very high CO2, 60% water changes with temp fluctuations of 5 degrees. Once I left some in a bucket in my shed which goes down to -2  during winter with no filter etc and they still survived and even bred a little. The very same shrimp dropped like flies when I put them in a Fluval edge I bought second hand. I could never keep ANY fish or shrimp in that tank no matter how hard I tried for 3 years. I have never been happier to find a tank leaking one day! I never reused that filter.



I am confident that the shrimp are now doing well, berried females are a good sign. Hopefully, I can now start enjoying the tank more 

With the help of the forum, I have ruled out anything catastrophic such as copper or other water parameters. I think a big issue was trying to do everything as others were, or I had seen on the web, I have not settled into a routine that seems to be working for me.


Big G said:


> Curious to know if you ever got to the bottom of the Fluval Edge issue? (apologies to Nick for the tangent)
> 
> Bg


No bother at all


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