# Tom's 60P - Goodbye plants, hello Goldfish



## Tom (2 Sep 2011)

I thought now might be a good time to start my journal for the 60P, which arrived yesterday from TGM, very well wrapped and packaged. 

I will be using the Eheim Ecco Pro 300 that is currently running my Mini M, along with the 2kg FE and UP reg. I'll also use the lily pipe inlet from the Mini M, with the outlet I bought from AE a few years ago for my last attempt. 

I also now have on order an Arcadia OT5 2x 24w luminaire, Flora Base Substrate and Grey Parts Set from AquaEssentials.  

On my driveway are the sheets of MDF I will be using to DIY the stand. I will be doing another ADA style stand like my last one (should have kept it really!!) I'm just trying to decide for the back piece of the cabinet whether to rout an indent to slot it in, or whether to just cut an exact fit and glue in place. The latter is by far the easier and quicker way, but may not be the best. 

More to come... 

Tom


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## Sonnyarba (2 Sep 2011)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - the DIY stage*

Hi Tom,

looking forward to see your project


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## Tom (4 Sep 2011)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - the DIY stage*

Thanks 

I began the stand today, first routing the rear edges of the stand so the back can be slotted in place. Went pretty well for me!!






The first part is now gluing 





I have a few days off work this week, so hope to get it finished before I go back  Will be giving it a thorough sealing with a thick covering of MDF undercoat/seal, then a few more coats. I think I will stick to the ADA Grey colour rather than be creative. Just looks so smart in grey. 

Tom


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## Gary Nelson (4 Sep 2011)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - the DIY stage*

Hey Tom,

This is looking great! I will be watching this progress - I am looking to build my own cabinet this winter as well for my new tank next year, very similar to how you are doing yours... so hoping to pick up a few tips


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## Tom (4 Sep 2011)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - the DIY stage*

Pinned in place, and waiting for the glue to dry. I didn't want to have to pin it, but I didn't have any other way to hold the large pieces together while it was setting. I can just fill the indents afterwards and they shouldn't be visible at all. 

The messy bits are just glue - it gets everywhere that stuff! Will dry clear too, and any excess will be sanded down. Gaps/Joins will be filled, then the sealing/painting will start. 






Tom


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## Stu Worrall (4 Sep 2011)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - the DIY stage*

looking great Tom and will be a beauty when finished


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## Tom (4 Sep 2011)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - the DIY stage*

Thanks Stu, hopefully it will work out nicely 

The construction is all finished now, and the glue is nice and hard. I've just been over it sanding down any rougher areas, and where the glue has squished out the sides. Heavy rain has stopped play today, but tomorrow I'll be off to B&Q to get some sealer and paint. Filling will also be done tomorrow morning. 

Tom


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## Tom (4 Sep 2011)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - the DIY stage*


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## flygja (5 Sep 2011)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - the DIY stage*

Hi Tom, that's looking really good. Would you let me know what type of spray paints you will use to seal and waterproof the MDF? I have no woodworking knowledge to speak off, but am trying to build some luminaires. Thanks!


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## Tom (5 Sep 2011)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - the DIY stage*

I think rather than spray paints I will probably just use brush-on paint. You get so much more for your money, and can then just use wet and dry paper to smooth it off. It will take a few coats, but will hopefully give a nice finish. The main think is going to be sealing all the joins well, as last time some water got into a chip and the whole thing expanded. 

I'm wondering about the door too - it's a lot of weight to be held by some screws in MDF, so I'm thinking I might hold it in place with magnets. Well that's one thought anyway, I'm not sure what to do yet. I know last time I tried it, the door sagged with the weight. Any ideas would be welcomed


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## Tom (5 Sep 2011)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - *Paint Question**

The light unit has arrived from Aqua Essentials, but the bulb colour is somewhat unexpected...! I might be investing in some new bulbs! I thought it was the Plant Pro bulb that gave the pink colour, but it turns out it's the Original Tropical. 

Also, does anyone know how to attach this to the hanging kit? I haven't ordered the kit yet, but I assumed it just screws into the top of the unit like the old knock-off one I had. This unit has a completely smooth top, with no screw holes.  [EDIT: sorted!]


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## Tom (7 Sep 2011)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - the DIY stage*

flygja - I used watered down PVA in the end to seal it. That was on recommendation of B&Q who didn't have any specific PVA sealers or undercoats. It's then been painted in a wood primer, which I apparently gave too thick a coat of! It ran a bit, so I had to sand it down this morning with wet 'n' dry paper. Didn't want to have to do that!! It's nice and smooth now though. Anyway, I'm now going to give it it's first coat of the grey.


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## Tom (7 Sep 2011)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - the DIY stage*

First coat of Grey  I reckon I'll be able to sand it down and get another coat on by the end of the day.


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## Bobtastic (7 Sep 2011)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - the DIY stage*

Looking really nice tom! Can't wait to see the finished article. Will you weight test it b4 use?


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## Tom (7 Sep 2011)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - the DIY stage*

Thanks Bob, 

I'm pretty confident it will hold the weight. I made one before from plywood for my self built 60x45x45 "epicfail" tank, and that was very solid. I do have another 60cm tank however, which may be worth using as a test run before the 60P itself. Say if I leave it filled for a few days, I think that will be enough. 

The way the cabinet is build should give it plenty of strength. Here is another guide I found this morning on AquascapingWorld. They use 16mm MDF and I've used 12mm. 

http://www.aquascapingworld.com/magazin ... Stand.html


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## Gary Nelson (7 Sep 2011)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - the DIY stage*

This is looking the Business now Tom, anymore thoughts on how the door will end up being attatched?


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## Tom (7 Sep 2011)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - the DIY stage*

Well I've got 4 magnets that I'm thinking of using instead of hinges. That way, the whole door can be removed, and it means there isn't all that pressure on two hinges. It's a heavy door, and I can just see the screws tearing out of the MDF. 

I've spent the last few hours sanding it right down, and it was reeeally smooth. Just re-coated it, and will sand it down again tomorrow evening after work if I have the energy. Need to get it looking nice!


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## Tom (9 Sep 2011)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - the DIY stage*

Question - what makes the paint look blotchy once sanded down?

It's meant to be a flat grey, and looks good (but rough) once the coat has dried, and before sanding. I've been sanding it down with 1800 grit until I can see my face in it, but then it has little blue blotches or streaks in it. Does anyone know what causes it? 

I've just put the 6th coat on this morning. 

Tom


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## NeilW (9 Sep 2011)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - *Paint Question*

May be an obvious thing but you didn't paint it in the wet/damp did you?


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## Garuf (9 Sep 2011)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - *Paint Question*

Is it lignin lines in the wood or just blotchy?


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## Tom (10 Sep 2011)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - *Paint Question*

Neil - I did use wed/dry paper, if that might have the effect? I will be doing the next couple of coats with sandpaper only to see if there is a difference. 

Garuf - it's definitely blotches!

Cheers


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## Tom (16 Sep 2011)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - *Paint Question*

I've decided to use spray paint now - the brush-on stuff wasn't really working unfortunately. However, it has given me a very nice undercoat surface for spraying on!! I'm using the same "Pewter" spray as I did for the Mini M light unit. It's had the first coat this afternoon (1.5 cans!), and will be rubbed down later on. It will then get a few coats of "Clear Coat", smoothed off nicely. 

Had a few more bits in the post recently  I picked up a Luminaire Suspension Kit earlier today too  





Also bought some Brackets from B&Q this morning. They will be adapted to hold the Suspension Kit.


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## JohnC (16 Sep 2011)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - the DIY stage*



			
				Tom said:
			
		

> Thanks Bob,
> ....
> 
> The way the cabinet is build should give it plenty of strength. Here is another guide I found this morning on AquascapingWorld. They use 16mm MDF and I've used 12mm.
> ...



by an odd co-incidence i was reading that last night.


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## Tom (19 Sep 2011)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Suspension kit, Change of paint*

I've had to change the paint again - the PlastiKote just wasn't working. Now using Rustoleum (I think that was it) and it's absolutely bang on. So much better to use, goes on easier, sands down easier. Just don't rub with white spirit!!

Second coat's just gone on a few mins ago, and I reckon I'll have the 2nd lacquer coat on by tonight. Still haven't painted the door though. It's bowed a bit, so I might have to look into another way of doing that.


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## Tom (19 Sep 2011)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Change of paint - again!*


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## Gary Nelson (19 Sep 2011)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Change of paint - again!*

Hey Tom, that's looking fab! what was the problem you were having with the PlastiKote paint then?


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## Tom (19 Sep 2011)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Change of paint - again!*

Couldnt get a flat colour finish whatever I did. I could get it as glassy and smooth, but it was all blotchy. Same for the brush-on stuff. This one went on great first time though


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## Tom (19 Sep 2011)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Change of paint - again!*

A better picture


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## James Marshall (19 Sep 2011)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Change of paint - again!*

NIce build Tom.
Did the door bow as a result of painting it ?

Cheers,
James


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## Tom (19 Sep 2011)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Change of paint - again!*

Nope, it's just bowed I think. I noticed when I layed it all out it wasn't flat. 

What's the best thing to use that stays flat? Ply? I might get a new sheet of that cut so I have something flat to use!


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## James Marshall (20 Sep 2011)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Change of paint - again!*

Plywood is probably better as it is lighter weight and tougher than MDF.
However if it has not been stored properly it is just as likely to bow as MDF.
As long as it is flat when you get it, should be ok.
You might want to use some grain fill on the visible side, in case its still visible through the paint.

Cheers,
James


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## Tony Swinney (20 Sep 2011)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Change of paint - again!*

Great work Tom.  You've obviously put alot of time and effort into this so congrats on how its looking 

Tony


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## Tom (20 Sep 2011)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Change of paint - again!*

Thanks James - would MDF straighten out if I weighed it down in the corners for a while?

Cheers Tony  Getting there finally!! Just need to decide if I will need to brace it at the front at all... 

My heater arrived from Nayr88 too today, thanks Ryan!

Tom


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## James Marshall (20 Sep 2011)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Change of paint - again!*



			
				Tom said:
			
		

> Thanks James - would MDF straighten out if I weighed it down in the corners for a while?



It's never worked for me, I think once its bowed it will never return to flat.
I've got used to checking the boards I get delivered at work. If they're not flat I send them back, much to the amusement of the delivery driver.

Cheers,
James


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## Tom (27 Sep 2011)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Change of paint - again!*

Well I've used 6 spray cans now, and 2 of laquer, yet still cannot get it smooth. Managed to go through to the base coat again despite all these layers, and it's still not smooth. I don't know how I've managed it, because it was dead on smooth and shiny before laquering it... Next time I'll pay £300 for an ADA one, it's not worth this hassle!


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## NeilW (27 Sep 2011)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Change of paint - again!*

For my MDF cabinet I had some issues getting the paint right too. I first got hold of 'multi surface' primer which contrary to the description wouldn't work with MDF and went disgusting. I had to then had to rip off all the old paint and buy a purpose 'MDF Primer' which went on like a dream using a gloss roller. After using wet and dry and finishing pad it had a glass like finish. However I was fortunate enough to know a car sprayer who put on the actual colour so its pretty durable.

Dunno what I'm gunna do when it comes to making a bigger one!


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## Tom (1 Feb 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Back on this!*

I am back on this! After months of the 60P sitting there, I've whacked out the original emulsion and gave it a go using a small foam roller. No idea how it will turn out, but at least if it's got some paint on it I can think about maybe considering the idea of setting it up...... 

I'm also thinking I might make a smart looking curtain instead of a door, mounted on the inside of the front panel. Basically the less painting I have to do now, the better!!

To be continued...


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## hinch (1 Feb 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - I'm back on this!*

matt acrylic spray primer then acrylic spray paint then a matt (or gloss if thats your thing) acrylic varnish covers MDF perfectly.
if you really want a perfect smooth shiney finish then wet flat it down after first layer of varnish and respray, continue this a few more times to build up a nice thick varnish finish.

MDF is mostly non porous (sp?) unlike other woods since its technically not a wood its cardboard + glue  so you have to paint it up in a similar fashion to spraying a car its long and slow but do it right and it comes up awesome.

with regards to the bowing of mdf if you've built using 18mm MDF (which for a cabinet you should never use less) there should be very very little bowing in it even over an unsupported 3 meter length there's little bow infact its less flexible over distance than ply or chipboard when compared on a like for like thickness.


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## Antipofish (1 Feb 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - I'm back on this!*

I have a suggestion .... Find a kitchen cabinet manufacturer (or bathroom cabinets) and approach them to do the spraying.  I did this in New Zealand and they charged me $100 to do the whole 3' cabinet in a full gloss white finish just like you get on kitchen or bathroom cabinet doors.  It was awesome.  The cabinet cost a further $100 to make.  This equated (at the time) to £80 !!  Much cheaper than a £300 ADA cabinet   Course, you have started now, so this may not be a viable option.


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## Tom (2 Feb 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - I'm back on this!*

Thanks for the suggestions. 

The roller has worked much better this time around, and although it's not perfect it's good enough and I'm happy with it 

I bought some grey material today to make a curtain to hide equipment etc. 





I need to clean the glass before it's even held water!


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## Antipofish (2 Feb 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - I'm back on this!*

Grey material ?  Really ?  A beautiful ADA tank, a cabinet that now looks awesome, and you are going to put material on the front of it to make it look like some 1970's retro kitchen cupboard space where someone can't afford doors and puts an old tablecloth on a net curtain wire across it instead ?  OK, I am kidding a bit with you, but I honestly think it will detract from the great look you have achieved so far, and I urge you to consider other options.


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## Tom (3 Feb 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - I'm back on this!*

In place and Arcadia hung


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## Themuleous (3 Feb 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - I'm back on this!*

Oooh er, very swish


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## Tom (3 Feb 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Ready to go*

Water in for a test run - see how the stand copes with 60KG :S


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## JohnC (3 Feb 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Ready to go*

I read the earlier stands build thread the other day, why did you switch from ply to mdf for this one?

Thanks,
John

p.s looking ace.


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## Tom (3 Feb 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Ready to go*

I prefer working with MDF as it doesn't chip, split and go rough at the edges. It's smoother to cut and rub down. Saying that, next time I'd probably try Ply again 

I have just picked up another half sheet of MDF to make the door, and possibly a brace. As there's no support at the front, it's bowing outwards slightly. Not for long.


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## JohnC (3 Feb 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Ready to go*

To save me looking up the other thread before I run down to check the ply ive got in the basement, what was the thickness you used in the previous cabinet?


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## Tom (3 Feb 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Ready to go*

As far as I can remember it was 12mm, same as this one. There was less bow on the Plywood though, and I'm now making a couple of braces for this MDF one.


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## clonitza (3 Feb 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Ready to go*

Looking great Tom. Happy you resumed your little project.   

Mike


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## Antipofish (3 Feb 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Ready to go*

Nice frosted glass doors would look great on that.... Nice new FE there I see.  Where did you get it and what size ?


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## Tom (3 Feb 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Ready to go*

Frosted would look good, I did think about it. I'm also thinking about frosting the rear of the tank (just the film stuff), as I have a twin socket behind it :/ 

The FE is just an exchanged one from our local Flameskill guy in Hadleigh, but it it fairly shiny. It's 2kg.


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## Antipofish (3 Feb 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Ready to go*



			
				Tom said:
			
		

> Frosted would look good, I did think about it. I'm also thinking about frosting the rear of the tank (just the film stuff), as I have a twin socket behind it :/
> 
> The FE is just an exchanged one from our local Flameskill guy in Hadleigh, but it it fairly shiny. It's 2kg.



That would link in nicely, frosting the back and the doors.  You could get some regular toughened glass or laminated (I never know which, lol) and put the same frosting on them as on the tank ?  Hope you didnt mind my comment about the home made curtain, LOL.

How much do you pay to exchange your FE's ?


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## Tom (3 Feb 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Ready to go*

I don't mind the comments, no worries! You were probably right, hence I bought more wood. The new pieces have been sealed and had their first top-coat. Will rub them down tomorrow evening and get another coat on. I've got a vertical brace for the front as well as a horizontal one for the bottom (similar to the top strip), and a door which will be fitted with magnets so it can be removed fully. Hopefully this way with the braces it will stop any movement or bowing. Next time will use 18mm. 

The FE cost £10 last time for 2kg, but apparently it's normally £20. Not sure why he did it cheap this time round.


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## Antipofish (3 Feb 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Ready to go*



			
				Tom said:
			
		

> I don't mind the comments, no worries! You were probably right, hence I bought more wood. The new pieces have been sealed and had their first top-coat. Will rub them down tomorrow evening and get another coat on. I've got a vertical brace for the front as well as a horizontal one for the bottom (similar to the top strip), and a door which will be fitted with magnets so it can be removed fully. Hopefully this way with the braces it will stop any movement or bowing. Next time will use 18mm.
> 
> The FE cost £10 last time for 2kg, but apparently it's normally £20. Not sure why he did it cheap this time round.



Cheers Tom   Oh and one more question, do you pay a deposit on the cylinder  ?


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## Tom (3 Feb 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Ready to go*

Nope.


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## Antipofish (3 Feb 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Ready to go*



			
				Tom said:
			
		

> Nope.



CRACKING Tank (excuse the pun, which I hope is not a prediction, LOL).  I am now considering getting an optiwhite to replace my aquience !!! I bloody KNEW this hobby was gonna be expensive.


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## Tom (3 Feb 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Ready to go*

They are very nice quality tanks  Yeah it's not a cheap hobby, most of my bits and pieces have been built up over a few years.


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## Stu Worrall (3 Feb 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Ready to go*

looking very nice tom and that cabinet is serrrwish!!


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## Tom (6 Feb 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Ready to go*

Thanks Stu  

I've just ordered some Plants through work (P@H, so Tropica), which should arrive for Weds. Will be dry-starting, but will only leave it long enough to get some roots down. Then I'll plant the rest and fill it.


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## Antipofish (6 Feb 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Ready to go*

Tom what glassware is that on there ?


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## Tom (6 Feb 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Ready to go*

Cheap! I don't know to be honest. I got it for Christmas 3 years ago but never used it.


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## Tom (17 Feb 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Dry Starting*

Finished the cabinet today. Might re-coat the door though as it has a couple of small scuffs on the front already from being left out.


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## Mrmikey (17 Feb 2012)

*Tom's 60P build - Dry Starting*

Hey Tom, ive been out the loop since Olympia. I haven't really had time for my tank as I'm moving to London next week. I was thinking of making a cabinet somehow. This is a great little guide and yours has turned out amazing!! I love it. 
But for me I don't have a work shop or any tools... Do you think I should just buy one? Whats the total cost? And time you spent doing it? 
My tank is 26inchs long do ADA make them to fit mine? 
Can't wait to see your scape either I know it will be good.


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## Tom (17 Feb 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Dry Starting*

Hey Mike,

Total cost if I hadn't had all the trouble with paint would have been around £50, not including tools/glue etc. I actually spent closer to £170 due to messing with paint, buying more wood for doors and braces etc. 
If you don't have any tools it might not be best to start building one. To be honest, I'd look at the new-style Fluval Roma 125 stand - I think they're quite smart, although it's not going to be a flush fit. You could drill some holes in the top of the stand for the filter pipes etc. 

I wanna make sure I'm happy with the scape before I post up proper pictures. I've got most of the plants in dry-starting at the moment, but I still need to decide on a background stem (If I have one), and get moss (and maybe Bolbitis) for the hardscape. I'm fairly happy with it for the moment, but it lacks a little bit of height. Maybe the stems would sort that, but I've never had any luck with them. They just go brown.


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## ceg4048 (17 Feb 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Dry Starting*

Tom I think you have slightly too much water in the tank. Some parts of the HC(?) are actually submerged and this can result in rotting. Clay absorbs water and it will wick upwards to moisten all the sediment, so you don't need to have it so high. Dry means Dry mate...

Cheers,


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## Tom (17 Feb 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Dry Starting*

Thanks Clive - I had just flooded it for a couple of minutes to keep it wet, and siphoned out as much as I could. Some more water just seeped out from the substrate higher up. The excess got removed


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## Antipofish (18 Feb 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Dry Starting*



			
				Mrmikey said:
			
		

> Hey Tom, ive been out the loop since Olympia. I haven't really had time for my tank as I'm moving to London next week. I was thinking of making a cabinet somehow. This is a great little guide and yours has turned out amazing!! I love it.
> But for me I don't have a work shop or any tools... Do you think I should just buy one? Whats the total cost? And time you spent doing it?
> My tank is 26inchs long do ADA make them to fit mine?
> Can't wait to see your scape either I know it will be good.



If you know the size of the wood you need, a local timber merchant should be able to cut it all for you for little or no money (esp if you buy the wood from them).  Our Sainsbury's homebase will cut wood to size (technically for a pound a cut but smile nicely and they often reduce that if there is a fair bit of cutting involved).  Then all you need is a screwdriver and a bit of sandpaper.  Its the way I will be doing mine, as I dont have power saws etc either.


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## Tom (18 Feb 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Dry Starting*

I had mine cut to size, but still had to rout the recess in the back to hold it square (you don't have to, but its neater). Then I also cut the holes in the back and sides for cables and pipes. Ideally you want to be gluing it rather than just screws. If you screw it as well, they could be your clamps. If not, you'll need to hold it in place somehow overnight. Then any screw holes might need to be filled and smoothed which is easy enough without tools, just a pain!


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## Tom (1 Mar 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P build - Dry Starting*

The tank is now flooded and planted. I picked up some more plants today in P@H Newmarket, but I still need to get some moss. There's some R. indica coming from Luis too. I want moss to merge the wood and rocks together at both ends, and some more around the joins of the rock formation. I think I'm going to go for plain old Java again, as it's the one I've had best success with. 

I'm starting the lights 10" above the surface (lowered for photo) to see how things go. Ferts are leftover Brighty K and Step 1 until they run out, then either just EI trace or full EI depending how it looks.


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## awtong (1 Mar 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Flooded*

How were the plants looking at P@H Newmarket?

Andy


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## Tom (1 Mar 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Flooded*

Not too bad - they're always better than the majority of P@H for plants. I just snapped up the H. pinnatifida and Pogostemon as soon as I saw them.


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## awtong (1 Mar 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Flooded*

Must be my wife cleaning the tank then


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## Tom (1 Mar 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Flooded*

Who is your wife?


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## awtong (2 Mar 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Flooded*

She works there bright red hair and glasses maybe a grumpy face


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## Tom (7 Mar 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Flooded*

Don't know her then, sorry!!

Quick shot this morning:


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## Ady34 (7 Mar 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Flooded*

very dramatic, great looking scape and set up!


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## Stu Worrall (7 Mar 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Flooded*

very nice tom, looks great


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## Tom (7 Mar 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Flooded*

Ta  Will be having a tidy up tomorrow of the old A. mad leaves and HC. Nice day off cleaning multiple tanks again!


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## Antipofish (7 Mar 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Flooded*

Looking good Tom.  Sorry if you already said, but what light unit is that please?


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## Tom (7 Mar 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Flooded*

It's the Arcadia 2x24 unit with the hanging kit


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## Antipofish (7 Mar 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Flooded*



			
				Tom said:
			
		

> It's the Arcadia 2x24 unit with the hanging kit


 Just T5 or with MH too ?


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## Tom (7 Mar 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Flooded*

Just the T5's, about 10/11" above the surface


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## Antipofish (7 Mar 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Flooded*



			
				Tom said:
			
		

> Just the T5's, about 10/11" above the surface



Wow, impressive   I love the look of your whole setup


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## Tom (7 Mar 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Flooded*

Thanks  Might start lowering the lights once the diatoms have come and gone (I've seen small patches on the rocks)


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## Tom (20 Mar 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Cherry Shrimp*

Lights are now 14" above the tank while the diatoms clear, and I have added 20 Cherry Shrimp today. Swallows quoted the wrong price over the phone so got them for just over £1 each  Also added one Oto from another tank, but will likely get 2 or 3 more when I'm paid. 

The Pogostomen stems are now around 2-3" from the surface, and will need a trim soon. I'm nervous about trimming though incase they don't come back! They're looking pretty good so far. 

The HC has had 2 trims now too just taking off any upward growth. There has been some dieback underneath, and under the "bridge" area (probably hence the diatoms on them), but the new growth is coming through nicely and it's filling in. 

The Hygro. pinnatifida is doing very well, and is definitely a new favourite  Taken on a more pleasant colour too and looks more established. I think I'll make more use of it when taking cuttings, and plant a bit more densely. 

I have some more stems coming from Ed soon, so may cut back on the Pogostomen a bit. It seems like it will be quite difficult to aquascape with it on it's own, so hopefully more variety will help things along. 

The moss is making a slow start, but it's getting there. The parts in lower flow seem to be doing the best. I think I should have used a bit more to cover the rocks some more as it looks a bit bare at the moment. 

Fish-wise, at the moment I'm thinking Harlequins 

Tom


----------



## Tom (22 Mar 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Cherry Shrimp*

All diatoms are now gone, partly thanks to the shrimp (incredibly efficient) and the lower lighting  I've trimmed the Pogostemon this morning and the trimmings are available for donation. I've also included some Rotala and Ludwigia stems at the back which should start straightening out soon enough. 

The hairgrass seems to be struggling at the moment :/ I've never had much luck with it.


----------



## Tom (22 Mar 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Cherry Shrimp*

Quick angled shot. It doesn't seem to have any height once trimmed, so hopefully the stems will provide that once it's all grown in again. The wood is a bit lower than I might like, but can't be helped now!


IMG_6050 by tommessengerhoto, on Flickr


----------



## Tom (3 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Cherry Shrimp*

All 20 Cherries have died within the last 2 days :/


----------



## GHNelson (3 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Cherry Shrimp*



			
				Tom said:
			
		

> All 20 Cherries have died within the last 2 days :/


That's bad news Tom any clues on their demise?


----------



## Tom (3 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Cherry Shrimp*

Not a clue, I haven't changed any routines since the beginning :/


----------



## Antipofish (3 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Cherry Shrimp*

Have you added any new plants recently mate ?


----------



## Ady34 (3 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Cherry Shrimp*

Or started using any aerosols or airfreshners nearby?
Must be awful when this happens.


----------



## Tom (3 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Cherry Shrimp*

No new plants that could have any pesticides on or anything, just some stems from Piece-of-Fish a few days ago (and it won't be those). 

No sprays or anything around the tank :/


----------



## Tom (4 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Cherry Shrimp*

Changes as of today:

R/O water only for water changes - since I started using tap water in 2008/9, I've not had any success with plants and it's been rather frustrating. Previously, rainwater was fantastic so I'm going to trial very soft water again to see if that actually has been the cause. 

Double dosing of TPN and TPN+ on alternate days - 6 squirts each (in ADA bottles)


----------



## Iain Sutherland (4 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Cherry Shrimp*



			
				Tom said:
			
		

> Double dosing of TPN and TPN+ on alternate days - 6 squirts each (in ADA bottles)



If i understand right there is no need to dose both of these, TPN and TPN+ are the same thing except the plus stands for nitrogen and phosphorus added.  So in theory you are dosing 4 times the amount of micros using both.  Using just TPN+ will save you some £££ though.


----------



## Tom (4 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Changes*

I think it was Graeme Edwards that said he had better success using both alternately (sorry if it wasn't you!). I've not noticed anything either way yet. I haven't bought them anyway, I'm still using what I got as a prize for winning the PFK aquascaping competition in 2007/8.


----------



## Iain Sutherland (4 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Changes*

ok mate, just thought id mention it seeing as this hobby can be sooo expensive   

Curious if you will remineralise your RO or cut it with tap water?? I use 50/50 ATM but am interested what the effects of pure RO would be without remineralizing?


----------



## Tom (4 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Changes*

I will probably cut it 90/10


----------



## Mark Evans (4 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Changes*

Looking great Tom. I think though, it's missing something at the back. Any plans for that?....(i may of read over it  )


----------



## Antipofish (4 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Cherry Shrimp*



			
				easerthegeezer said:
			
		

> Tom said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hey Easer... he's not double dosing as he is using them on alternate days.  Essentially therefore, dosing micros daily as most of us do, and macros on alternate days only.  You may have missed that bit


----------



## Iain Sutherland (4 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Cherry Shrimp*

[/quote]
Hey Easer... he's not double dosing as he is using them on alternate days.  Essentially therefore, dosing micros daily as most of us do, and macros on alternate days only.  You may have missed that bit [/quote]

Didnt miss anything   Was purely mentioning that there is no need for '2 bottles in the shower' if using TPN+.  
I realised after i posted that it was toms thread and he certainly doesnt need my advise


----------



## Antipofish (4 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Cherry Shrimp*

Hey Easer... he's not double dosing as he is using them on alternate days.  Essentially therefore, dosing micros daily as most of us do, and macros on alternate days only.  You may have missed that bit [/quote]

Didnt miss anything   Was purely mentioning that there is no need for '2 bottles in the shower' if using TPN+.  
I realised after i posted that it was toms thread and he certainly doesnt need my advise  [/quote]

Lol. I think from what he wrote that he only wants to dose macro's every other day though. Hence the two bottles  (Bit like not wanting to use the Pantene with conditioner every day I guess, LOL).


----------



## Tom (5 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Changes*



			
				Mark Evans said:
			
		

> Looking great Tom. I think though, it's missing something at the back. Any plans for that?....(i may of read over it  )



Thanks Mark, there are stems all down the back but I think they will look odd when grown in. I also wish there was a bit more height in the wood as it looks too low to me. I think my initial stem choice of Pogostomen was not a good one, so I might have to change it if it's not looking right. Just want to get it growing healthy for the time being. After that, I'll get onto the scaping part!



			
				easerthegeezer said:
			
		

> Didnt miss anything   Was purely mentioning that there is no need for '2 bottles in the shower' if using TPN+.
> I realised after i posted that it was toms thread and he certainly doesnt need my advise



I'll take all the advice I can get if it works!



			
				Antipofish said:
			
		

> Lol. I think from what he wrote that he only wants to dose macro's every other day though. Hence the two bottles  (Bit like not wanting to use the Pantene with conditioner every day I guess, LOL).



Condition every time


----------



## Tom (5 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Changes*

Just added a 400lph powerhead along the back of the tank, so will see how that effects things. Not a pretty bit of kit though!


----------



## Tom (10 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Changes*

Everything's still going yellow or brown :/ The HC looks awful. Now dosing EI macros and TPN trace CO2 at 3bps and seem to be blown around well enough. 

Lights are now 30" above the substrate which is probably the lowest light intensity I've ever used, even for low tech. Could it actually be too little light, causing diatoms and yellowing of leaves? I really don't understand why I can't get anything right any more!


----------



## Iain Sutherland (10 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Clive?*

i may be wrong mate but i have always found plants under low light to be a darker green than under high light, something to do with more chlorophyll to use available light?? just a guess mind.  I would be surprised if low light could be the cause of yellowing or diatoms.

how long are the lights on for mate?


----------



## clonitza (10 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Clive?*

Fancy a photo with the powerhead placement?


----------



## dw1305 (11 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Clive?*

Hi all,


> i may be wrong mate but i have always found plants under low light to be a darker green than under high light, something to do with more chlorophyll to use available light??


 Yes and no, depends very much on the plant. A plant that is adapted to low light like a _Bolbitis, Microsorum, Cryptocoryne_, most mosses etc. will be dark green in low light, as they have a lot of chlorophyll to make sure that all photons are captured. If you place them in higher light they don't have any genetic plasticity to reduce their chlorophyll levels and energy interception, and the extra energy damages the leaf, giving leaf scorch etc.. If you place these plants in situations where they don't get enough PAR to grow, they just die very slowly, and the leaves remain green

Plants that are naturally from lighter conditions (and particularly those that would ideally grows as emergent or emersed) are different, they have much more ability to regulate their chlorophyll production. Clive wrote in <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=20184> 





> _On the other hand, the leaves at the bottom improve their photosynthetic efficiency by allocating more chlorophyll per square inch within those leaves. The leaves at the top of the tank, which are exposed to higher PAR levels, actually reduce their photosynthetic efficiency and produce pigments which fluoresce and reflect the high light energy to protect themselves from high photonic energy._


If you place a plant, that has a potentially fast growth rate, in a situation where temperature, nutrients and CO2 aren't limiting, its growth rate will depend upon the amount of PAR. At high levels of light it will convert more carbon and nitrogen into plant material and grow more quickly. 

If you then place that plant in a situation where it don't get enough PAR to grow, it will still throw-out new shoots, but these will become progressively more spindly (due to the action of auxins on the cell walls) and paler (etiolated)  due to the conversion of chlorophyll to the yellow protochlorophyll (this is initially reversible).

cheers Darrel


----------



## Tom (11 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - Clive?*

Here's a shot of the mess at the moment - the tank went through it's first diatom bloom as expected and returned to normal. This is the second bloom, presumably due to everything dying. There is a rated 1100 lph now, with the powerhead right under the lily. I have found this best for distribution and there is a decent circular movement around the tank. I tried the powerhead further towards the back wall which resulted in the right side of the tank being one large dead-spot. 






Here's my lovely lawn :/





There is no sign of CO2 related algae in the tank, and I am up to 3bps which seems to be distributed well down the side and along the back of the tank. Everything was growing well to start with, putting out lots of good shoots and spreading. The moss did great too, but suddenly everything went yellow and the diatoms appeared.


----------



## Tom (11 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - 4th failure in a row now.*

Really desparate for some help with this now, I'm going to have to replant the HC now. Just trimmed it down and everything underneath was dead.


----------



## George Farmer (11 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - 4th failure in a row now.*

Remind us; what's your water? Tap? RO? Softened?

Can you get hold of a PAR meter? 30" suspended lighting seems very high. Although I've just set up a low-maint tank for a client with a PAR of less than 5 at the substrate. Mind you, only crypts and ferns.


----------



## Tom (11 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - 4th failure in a row now.*

It's RO now. I was using tap, but I've been trying to eliminate the problem. Our normal tap water is softened and is no good for plants, but our outdoor tap is plain. The reason for RO was that every tank I've had success with has either been RO or rain, never tap. I thought I'd eliminate my tap water as a possible problem. 

I wouldn't know where to get a PAR meter without buying one. I moved the lights up during the first diatom bloom, but when that died down the the problems started and I am now in the second diatom bloom with a major Cherry Shrimp and plant die-off. Even the Pinnatifida is now on it's way out after growing brilliantly for a couple of weeks. 

I was wondering whether too low light could cause these problems but the question wasn't answered. I haven't lowered the light unit again for fear of the diatoms going out of control so it's kind of a catch 22 if it's a light problem!


----------



## Iain Sutherland (11 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - 4th failure in a row now.*

Just throwing ideas out there... have you considered changing the method of co2 introduction to an inline or similar??
Only reason i mention it is that i was running ceramic in tank diffusers and was struggling, put an inline on and there has been a massive improvement.  Inline's seem to provide a larger margin of error   

Might be worth a try if you have something else handy..??

What a frustrating hobby we have at times!


----------



## Tom (11 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - 4th failure in a row now.*

I have an UP atomizer, but it blocked last time after a month and I've not got it to work since. The tubes just popped off afterwards, and de-scaler/bleach didn't seem to clear it up.

Ceramic diffusers shouldm't have any problem working in-tank, and with the force of water I have hitting the 3bps micro-bubbles, plenty of CO2 should be dissolving. They are being blown right round the tank.


----------



## Antipofish (11 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - 4th failure in a row now.*

I cant help feeling this stemmed from when you lost all 20 shrimp last month.  Can you attribute anything to how you might have introduced them Tom ? Could they have been subject to some form of contamination that they brought into the tank with them ?


----------



## Tom (11 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - 4th failure in a row now.*

I don't know that the shrimp could have caused the plant deaths. They were doing a great job with the initial diatom bloom, and from then on on were constantly cleaning the substrate, looking nice and healthy. Then suddenly, all gone. The Otocinclus is still in top health with a nice fat belly. 

I removed the shrimp too quickly for them to have induced the diatoms, and the filter has been regularly maintained (obviously not under tap). 

I'm now having another go with the atomizer and de-scaler. Will try and rig up a spraybar for it with my powerhead, and see if that's any better.


----------



## Antipofish (11 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - 4th failure in a row now.*

Im just amazed and very perplexed (although happy to admit I am still learning so not best placed to offer an educated solution yet).  It seemed like a perfect setup   You've obviously been doing this long enough to have the tenacity to continue though, but I do feel for you. It can be disheartening when things constantly go wrong.


----------



## Radik (11 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - 4th failure in a row now.*

Those are seiru stone right? They will negate any RO added. It is calcium carbonate rock and it will buffer your tank to incredible KH levels but I do not think you keep there any soft water plant like Toninas so you are fine.

Those cherries you added too soon I think. Is it amazonia soil? I failed 2x with amazonia with shrimp I do not know why there is something shrimp do no like and it takes ages to get it suitable for them. So try again with few cherries they will clean diatom very fast. Maybe better than Amanos.

Then your light is too far. These grolux or whatever tubes you have have less par than daylight maybe by half. If my seneye was measuring correctly. So they are ok to go 10-15 cm from surface. Give it 6 hour photo period.

Your pinnifitida will become problem once amazonia get's depleted. And in my case it took only 8 weeks. It is more potassium hungry than echinodorus species so you need to doze accordingly. They do better in medium light than high light so try to shade them with other plants  and increase K.

I never cured diatom with low light instead I added more light and shrimp + enough Co2 and nutritients.


----------



## LondonDragon (11 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - 4th failure in a row now.*

Hard luck Tom, think it might all be down to CO2, I just don't see how it can always turn out like that!


----------



## Radik (11 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - 4th failure in a row now.*

One thing to the shrimp death. It is linked to seyru stone. As they increase GH and KH over week + your dozing, then you do water change and you make rapid TDS change in your tank. You give it RO water 90/10 so TDS 30 maybe.. stones will increase it to 250+ over week then you do 50% water change and your TDS is suddenly half. So what happens to shrimp cells? They explode under osmotic shock and wave bye bye. I removed seiru stones from every tank where I want to keep shrimp even simple cherries. 50% changes would be a killer. My TDS movement in fully high tech tank is +-30-40 which I found somewhat safe.


----------



## niru (11 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - 4th failure in a row now.*

Hi Tom

how old was your TPN & TPN+? I am sure that differing enviornmental conditions can deteriorate the chelation and induce bad things into the liquids; contamination perhaps? Maybe that lead to your shrimp death, and also induced baddies in the tank to which plants succumbed??

Just a thought since everyone has scrutinised everything else..

-niru


----------



## Tom (11 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - 4th failure in a row now.*



			
				Radik said:
			
		

> One thing to the shrimp death. It is linked to seyru stone. As they increase GH and KH over week + your dozing, then you do water change and you make rapid TDS change in your tank. You give it RO water 90/10 so TDS 30 maybe.. stones will increase it to 250+ over week then you do 50% water change and your TDS is suddenly half. So what happens to shrimp cells? They explode under osmotic shock and wave bye bye. I removed seiru stones from every tank where I want to keep shrimp even simple cherries. 50% changes would be a killer. My TDS movement in fully high tech tank is +-30-40 which I found somewhat safe.



I changed over to RO the day after the Shrimp had all gone (4th April). Would have sounded like a reasonable explanation otherwise, so thanks for the idea. 



			
				niru said:
			
		

> Hi Tom
> 
> how old was your TPN & TPN+? I am sure that differing enviornmental conditions can deteriorate the chelation and induce bad things into the liquids; contamination perhaps? Maybe that lead to your shrimp death, and also induced baddies in the tank to which plants succumbed??
> 
> ...



I asked about this in a separate thread. Darrel seemed to think that it shouldn't be a problem leaving it bottled for the time I have. They've been in a box in the dark in a cabinet since 2008ish, sealed.


----------



## spyder (11 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - 4th failure in a row now.*

Reading through this thread I have to agree with LD. I had similar attacks on dwarf hairgrass in a low tech/easy carbo tank, when I skipped doses and also on some pogostemon helferi in my high tech tank. 

I've found that as that plant mass starts increasing you have to up the gas too. In a little over 5 months my gas injection has been increased 4-5 times. Bubble count, what is that? I must be at around 10-12 bps now through an inline, maybe more. Fish are fine but I don't have sensitive shrimp to worry about. It can be daunting increasing the gas.

Diatoms will come and go, you have oto's don't worry about diatoms.

I hope you get it nailed fella, it's a nice scape and I would love to see it all nice and lush. Don't give up!


----------



## Tom (11 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - 4th failure in a row now.*

New CO2 injection method in place. Powerhead -> Atomizer -> Spraybar





The atomizer has reduced my bubble count to less than 1bps but the amount and size of the bubbles is amazing. I'll make sure to de-scale it weekly to keep it at it's best. Hopefully there might be some improvement if that is the issue. 

Not sure now if the diatoms will go without me removing the HC. I really don't want to have to re-plant it, but I will if I have to.


----------



## George Farmer (11 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - 4th failure in a row now.*

I'd be tempted to increase the lighting too. Dose more and change more water over a 5 day period, as an experiment.  You should be seeing pearling with good CO2, lighting and nutrients.


----------



## Tom (11 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - 4th failure in a row now.*

Thanks George, I'll drop the light 8" or so and see how we get on. Kill or cure though, that!! I've not seen any pearling at all from this tank yet. I'll keep up the EI now I've mixed it, which should be more than enough.


----------



## Radik (11 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - 4th failure in a row now.*

I have similar size tank Tom not sure what bubble counter you have if it is the glass one from  china I have around 3bps minimum and I have same atomizer. I am injecting on inlet filter and it is doing good job


----------



## Mark Evans (11 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - 4th failure in a row now.*

I'd consider ditching EI. To be honest, it's the best thing I've ever done. I had a 'fail' not so long back using it, and a couple of 'average at best' tanks. 

Since using lower 'everything' ferts, co2, light, I'm now growing some of the healthiest plants I've seen....and I've seen a few tanks outside of my house to compare them to   



			
				Radik said:
			
		

> One thing to the shrimp death. It is linked to seyru stone. As they increase GH and KH over week + your dozing, then you do water change and you make rapid TDS change in your tank. You give it RO water 90/10 so TDS 30 maybe.. stones will increase it to 250+ over week then you do 50% water change and your TDS is suddenly half.



RE shrimp deaths with seryiou stone...never suffered it, even with lengthy times between water changes....you remember how much stone I had in that last tank of mine   

Good luck Tom.


----------



## Radik (11 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - 4th failure in a row now.*

Hi Mark

yes we have seyru in office tank and cherries they are ok but I tried them at home with RO water in week from 0TDS you get 250TDS. If you use hard tap water these stones will not release much in already saturated water. Then you have no issue.


----------



## Mark Evans (11 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - 4th failure in a row now.*



			
				Radik said:
			
		

> es we have seyru in office tank and cherries they are ok but I tried them at home with RO water in week from 0TDS you get 250TDS.



Ahhh, sorry. didn't realise about the R/O.... yeah, understand now.


----------



## Radik (11 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - 4th failure in a row now.*



			
				Mark Evans said:
			
		

> I'd consider ditching EI. To be honest, it's the best thing I've ever done. I had a 'fail' not so long back using it, and a couple of 'average at best' tanks.



I am also not using EI but premixed ferts 5x a week maybe less than half of EI dozing normally. And I do fine for now. I can not move light 2x24W further from surface I am looking to replace ballast for dimmable as I would like to slow it down at some point.

In my other tanks I have dimmable T5 lamp or LED's and I figured out that less is more some time ago. I doze 3x a week only maybe 20% of EI amount and Co2 is normal level never had any issue and everything is growing great. It is all about light levels.

So Tom you have to find the right balance.


----------



## Tom (11 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - 4th failure in a row now.*



			
				Radik said:
			
		

> I have similar size tank Tom not sure what bubble counter you have if it this the glass one chinese I have around 3bps minimum and I have same atomizer. I am injecting on inlet filter and it is doing good job



It's one from AquaEssentials. I'll have a play with it tomorrow when it comes back on. I'll probably set it to 2bps for the time being, and see if there's any improvement.



			
				Mark Evans said:
			
		

> I'd consider ditching EI. To be honest, it's the best thing I've ever done. I had a 'fail' not so long back using it, and a couple of 'average at best' tanks.
> 
> Since using lower 'everything' ferts, co2, light, I'm now growing some of the healthiest plants I've seen....and I've seen a few tanks outside of my house to compare them to



Gotta say, when using the full ADA system of lean ferts and Malaya soil, it did work very very well indeed. But then maybe I just had my CO2 better balanced. I'll keep on EI for the time being and see how things look. I'm not seeing any fert-related algae, it's just diatoms and poor health, but I'm sure it will be worth experimenting with.


----------



## Radik (11 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - New tactics...*

Yes it is the same I have so bubble is same size and I am sure you are not having enough Co2 injected. I also start 4 hours before lights on and ending 1 hour before lights off.


----------



## Tom (20 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - New tactics...*

HC is recovering now, and I'm trying to get as much of the old stuff out as possible. Diatoms have completely taken over but will keep going.


----------



## Tom (29 Apr 2012)

*Re: Tom's 60P - HC recovering*

Goodbye consecutive £600+ planted tank number 4, hello Goldfish


----------



## pariahrob (29 Apr 2012)

No way! What happened? Your last post looks like things were getting back to how they should be.


----------



## Tom (29 Apr 2012)

Yeah, the HC was growing. Everything else died and you couldn't see the tank for hairy diatoms. Despite loads of maintenance daily it was beyond repair. Rewind to 2007/8 please when things actually worked!


----------



## Tom (29 Apr 2012)

Here's the new inhabitant - a Black Ranchu that's been separated from the rest since he was mauled. Our 240l split and so they all had to go in a small tank for a few weeks. My suspicions are with a bigger Ryukin! Well the Ranchu has been healing very well indeed, and will now be living in the 60P. I'm unsure what to do for decor, so for now the tank is bare.


----------



## pariahrob (29 Apr 2012)

He's an awesome looking fella! I've no idea about decor for them but a 60P is so nicely proportioned I'm sure you'll think up something good. Your planted scape looked lovely.


----------



## Nice (29 Apr 2012)

Hello

I will try to help you, by saying what i think about.

During the first weeks is essential to be careful and monitor NH4 NO2 and NO3. Your Diatoms algae are a result of excessive levels of NH4 , NO2 and NO3. To avoid this high levels you must conduct with frequent water changes, and avoid introduce fish, food, and NUTRIENTS containing NO3 (nitrogen)

As far as i saw you started to dose some nitrogen, and with ADA aquasoil amazonia also releasing nitrogen compounds, it has become toxic to shrimps and bloom diatom algae.

If you want to have success by setup up a planted tank, take a look at his useful article (in my opinion) : http://www.naturalaquario.com/?page_id=884

cumps


----------



## Tom (29 Apr 2012)

Thanks for your help,

I am aware of where the diatoms came from - it's the previous problems I had trouble with. These turned out to be low CO2, despite me injecting what I thought should be plenty. Because I didn't have any CO2-related algae, I discounted that as a cause. Then, as the plants suffered, they broke down and caused the diatoms. I am comfortable with diatoms during the initial stages of a setup, as they go fairly quickly (and did). It's what happened after that I was unable to control. Initially the plants had plenty of reserves, but due to a lack of CO2 that actually dissolved they couldn't keep up. Switching to an atomizer did help, but I think the damage was already done. 

Tom


----------



## Mark Evans (29 Apr 2012)

Nice said:
			
		

> If you want to have success by setup up a planted tank, take a look at his useful article (in my opinion) : http://www.naturalaquario.com/?page_id=884



Interesting article. A few things I'd change though.

Tom. Sorry to hear this issue your having. It's painful as I had a similar episode, Until I changed a couple of things. Now life is peachy. 

You'll bounce back I'm sure. You know you can do it, it's just about finding that 'sweet spot'

I'd offer advise, but i know you know what to do.


----------



## Tom (29 Apr 2012)

What did you change Mark? Atomizer and drop EI?

Considering the ADA approach again, with lean substrate.


----------



## Tom (29 Apr 2012)

Here's what's left - Just some rock, moss and H. pinnatifida. Quite pleased with the rockwork though, so will keep it running for now and the moss will need taming. Will have to see about taking the Do!aqua cube to uni with me though if I go this year.


----------



## Mark Evans (29 Apr 2012)

Tom said:
			
		

> What did you change Mark? Atomizer and drop EI?
> 
> Considering the ADA approach again, with lean substrate.



I pretty much ditched EI, and switched to TPN+ Small amounts too. My flow is significantly less than normal. Light intensity is low. I guess you could say that it's a similar regime to the ADA way of doing things. 

Co2 is injected by an in-line diffuser.

I do rely heavily on the substrate.


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## Antipofish (29 Apr 2012)

Mark Evans said:
			
		

> Tom said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hi Mark, relying on the substrate is fine, and to be honest I think its a good thing.  How long do you think that the substrate would support your kind of tank husbandry ? I am asking, because I know that normally your tanks are not that long lived it seems (which I also envy .  

Also, despite low light (which I have always understood to be the driving force of plant growth) you achieve amazing growth rates.  What do you attribute this to ?  Am I misunderstanding things perhaps (I am still a noob after all): does CO2 have a big influence on plant growth too ?  Do you have high rates of CO2 injection ?

And finally, when you say low light, do you mean low intensity but with longer photoperiods ?

Cheers mate.


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## Nice (29 Apr 2012)

Mark Evans said:
			
		

> Nice said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Like what? for example?



			
				Mark Evans said:
			
		

> pretty much ditched EI, and switched to TPN+ Small amounts too. My flow is significantly less than normal. Light intensity is low. I guess you could say that it's a similar regime to the ADA way of doing things.
> 
> Co2 is injected by an in-line diffuser.
> 
> I do rely heavily on the substrate.



I dont think that this is the way ADA doing things. 

Well ADA now is all about marketing...and there is no mucth information about how takashi amano have learn the things he knows now and why he have devolep the ADA products, all you now about ADA is that you need to buy ADA and it will work, and thats all. He have learned the way we do, and let me tell you, one of the things Amano learn, is that you have to get NH4, NO2 and NO3 almost ZERO, and of coure i mean ZERO on water tests. When you get a 10mg/l NO3 in you water test, that really A LOT!!!!

If you bought early books of Amano he does tell you that! So when i see people adding nitrogen on the tank, i get scared!!!

regards


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## Mark Evans (29 Apr 2012)

Nice said:
			
		

> Like what? for example?



Throw the test kits in the bin for starters. Reduce photo period, and increase the height of the light. 



			
				Antipofish said:
			
		

> Hi Mark, relying on the substrate is fine, and to be honest I think its a good thing. How long do you think that the substrate would support your kind of tank husbandry ? I am asking, because I know that normally your tanks are not that long lived it seems (which I also envy .
> 
> Also, despite low light (which I have always understood to be the driving force of plant growth) you achieve amazing growth rates. What do you attribute this to ? Am I misunderstanding things perhaps (I am still a noob after all): does CO2 have a big influence on plant growth too ? Do you have high rates of CO2 injection ?
> 
> And finally, when you say low light, do you mean low intensity but with longer photoperiods ?



My lighting is on for just 6 hours daily. On start up 5 hours for 2 weeks. 

It's a 150 MH but ADA. The output is visibly noticeable when compared to say, my Geissmann or my arcadia pendant.

I'm a big believer in metal halide and have major success with it, with little or no algae. It's about the height of the lamp.  

Co2 is steady. According to drop checker, it's maybe 25-30PPm I don't inject nowhere near what i used to. 

If substrate starts to run low on ferts, then the easy option is to inject root tabs.

Sorry to steer away from your thread Tom.


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## Nice (29 Apr 2012)

Well i never been in Japan to see ADA headquarters, i almost now for sure that there is at least 10hour Sun light on ADA windows Gallery in Japan   , and all aquariums are awesome and no algae! My opinion, and ADA aquajornal online, it is nitrogen compounds that brings algae.   

In early ADA amano books, there was a lot of information, and one of most important was some graphics showing evolution on NH4 NO2 and NO3. Interesting to see that all amazing aquariums had ZERO levels of NH4 NO2 and NO3.

If you have high levels of nutrients and only 5 hours light, it surely will help prevent algae. But from what i can see all amazing Amano tanks have 10 hours light!

But let me tell you, i'm not an expert, i'm just saying what o learn from ADA aquajornal online.  


"Sorry to steer away from your thread Tom"

Cheers


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## Antipofish (29 Apr 2012)

Mark Evans said:
			
		

> My lighting is on for just 6 hours daily. On start up 5 hours for 2 weeks.
> 
> It's a 150 MH but ADA. The output is visibly noticeable when compared to say, my Geissmann or my arcadia pendant.
> You mean its noticably better/more intense ?
> ...


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## flygja (30 Apr 2012)

Hey Tom, sorry to hear about the melt. Based on everything you've tried, I really can't tell whats the cause of all these problems you're having. Nothing makes people smile more than a bunch of nice fat goldfish though


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## viktorlantos (30 Apr 2012)

Cheers Tom,
Sorry to hear that the tank had a hard start.
However Diatom comes sometime and we had to deal with it. The goood thing is that, this is only a starter algae. When it's die it's never come back. So i always tell to my clients to have some patience. The tank may look bad with it, or very bad, but with a few things you can speed up the cure.

For a 60P tank with 15-20 small size amano shrimp or 10-12 large one would help a lot! I prefer the small ones as the large may will escape from this small tank.
If you do not see changes and the algae is quicker than your cleaning crew, then switch strategy and do a short blackout for a few days. An UV lamp would help also at the same time. Usually what's left the cleaning crew will eliminate shortly.

This is not about ferts really like Nice said. This happens sometime with ADA ferts too. Usually the majority of the HC tank got it at the start. Seen more with Amazonia soil.

Still i can tell you from our and our clients tank that, from every 10 tank 2-3 got this. The rest never. An it's not about magical ferts, soils, light etc.

Another thing which might worth to check, that with Seiryu and HC combo this has much higher ratio. I am more thinking about the large hardness changes as one of the additional reasons. Even if you use full RO with this much stone in a 60P hardness can go up heavily along the week causing extra stress for the plants. I love this stone, but but need extra care to keep the tank going. I do have 2 tanks now with similar stone. And in a 60P where we have like 30KG of them pushes up the 10TDS water to 330! in a week. That become harder then our tap water. I also faced similar issue with my latest scape: http://www.flickr.com/photos/viktorlant ... hotostream where i also use full RO and i see that on my plants that the large fluctations in hardness really vissible on plants.

Anyway sorry for the long post.   The algae is our friend.   Teach us more than anything in this hobby. So next time no need a restart if things goes bad.

By the way the upcoming months does not help to any HC keepers. So start to turn on the air/water conditioners, to avoid melting/roting. We already did that as we've got 30+ celsius for this weekend.


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## PM (8 May 2012)

Just to add, I gave up on 'hi tech' a VERY long time ago. 

Much more pain (in many ways) than it's worth.

I will only ever do low tech from now on. Good luck, your tanks inspired me years ago!


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