# Vase's 720 litre journal



## Vase (26 Feb 2008)

This glass box has been the bane of my life for the last seven years. Its made me practically give up fishkeeping, sell Discus and remove my hair by the roots. The amount of times I've wanted to take a hammer to it is unreal. 
Thats all about to change... 

Its going to take some time to sort as I need to spend top dollar, so I'll update as and when, and get equipment when I can afford to    Paypal donations accepted.

First step was removing the sand and preparing the tank for its move tomorrow. The cabinet's going in the bin followed very closely by that stupid background, which ironically caused 99% of the problems 
If you have the chance to buy a 'Back to Nature' background take my advice. *Don't*. If you have the chance to buy an Effect Line aquarium take my advice (see previous advice)

I'll be decorating the room in the meantime  (I cant wait!  <_< )


Pics.....














In the meantime Arcadia decide to stick T5's in their luminaires. Yeah, nice one Arcadia!


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## gixer (26 Feb 2008)

Gotta say from the pics i love that background.

But if it was causing problems then the tanks environment has to come first.

Just out of interest what problems was it causing. dead spots, fish getting behind it?




Cheers
Mark


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## Vase (26 Feb 2008)

Dead spots, cold spots and I'm pretty sure it was affecting gh/kh etc but I cant prove it. There was nothing else in the tank to raise those, especially when I used RO. Too coincedental for my liking. There were always fish behind it.

Nice background but its got to go :? 

Planting will be easier to as I wont have to plant around it. Most of the equipment is external so just filter inlets and spray bars to hide


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## sks (27 Feb 2008)

I agree that the background should go, but why the cabinet?

Redo using ECO complete or Aqua Soil and use EI or whatever dry fert dosing takes your fancy. Add some large canister filters with mechanical and bio media and inline CO2 reactors and you are good to go.

How many watts is your lighting by the way?

From the looks of the watermarks you seem to have neglected this tank somewhat. The effect line 720 is about Â£360 for the tank only, which is pretty damn good value for money if you ask me. The bracing I like since it's not particularly intrusive and thick, which means you are most likely able to use those glass lily pipes on it. How thick is the metal edges by the way? I saw one with Mark and TDI-Line when we went to WormWoods but forgot to measure the thickness. I'd gladly have the Effect line as my next tank if it weren't for the weight of glass.


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## Themuleous (27 Feb 2008)

Nice big tank though


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## George Farmer (27 Feb 2008)

I see 720 litres of unlimited potential.

I'd be very excited! 

All the best with it.  I'm sure with help from fellow members you will have it looking great soon...


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## Vase (27 Feb 2008)

sks said:
			
		

> I agree that the background should go, but why the cabinet?



Water damage, my dog chewed the corner off when he was a pup and because the cupboards are so small you can only fit the smallest of externals in them. I cant have equipment outside the cupboards mainly because of space and my dog, and with another pup on the way it would be suicide! 



			
				sks said:
			
		

> Redo using ECO complete or Aqua Soil and use EI or whatever dry fert dosing takes your fancy. Add some large canister filters with mechanical and bio media and inline CO2 reactors and you are good to go.



Got that covered. I cant justify Â£250 on substrate so I'm either going Akadama or one of the black gravels or sand. Two 2080's and my 2128. External heating, Aquamass reactor and UV. Oh and EI.



			
				sks said:
			
		

> How many watts is your lighting by the way?



Three 150w halides and two 58w T8's



			
				sks said:
			
		

> From the looks of the watermarks you seem to have neglected this tank somewhat.



lol...the tank has been sitting there for over a year. The last thing I did to it was remove the fish and turn all the plugs off, then I walked away. It disheartened me to the extent that I shut down all my other tanks (except one) and practically gave up keeping fish. It could've imploded in front of me and I wouldn't have cared. Water marks and tank neglect were the last thing on my mind! 



			
				sks said:
			
		

> How thick is the metal edges by the way?



About an inch.


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## TDI-line (27 Feb 2008)

What cabinet  are you going to go for Vase, i notice my Effect-line cabinet is higher and i have 4 cuboards there, plenty for my 2 eheims, uv, co2, and potential aqua-mass co2 unit, (did you order one from Germany btw?), 

What kind of glue has been used on your background? And was your background the WoodRock system?

http://www.backtonature.se/english/sortiment.html


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## sks (27 Feb 2008)

the good news is that you can definitely use the lilly pipes, the bad news is that it's going to take a long time for the hard water marks to dissolve under submersion of water, they really are hard to remove from glass.

Oh, and UV will BREAK down the EDTA chelator in the trace elements mix. I don't use UV myself and it's fine, are you scared of green water or white spot parasites?


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## George Farmer (27 Feb 2008)

Hi Vase

sks has a good point about hard water marks.

I've had good results with vinegar for removing hard water marks from dry, old tanks.

For really stubborn marks diluted sulphuric acid works a treat i.e. API pH Down.  I used this on Jeremy Gay's 120cm. 

Obviously wear the appropriate personal proctective equipment.


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## Themuleous (27 Feb 2008)

George Farmer said:
			
		

> Obviously wear the appropriate personal protective equipment.



Good old PPE


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## Vase (27 Feb 2008)

TDI-line said:
			
		

> What cabinet  are you going to go for Vase, i notice my Effect-line cabinet is higher and i have 4 cuboards there, plenty for my 2 eheims, uv, co2, and potential aqua-mass co2 unit, (did you order one from Germany btw?),
> 
> What kind of glue has been used on your background? And was your background the WoodRock system?
> 
> http://www.backtonature.se/english/sortiment.html



Hey mate,

Nah, they only had black cabinets in the country and only a couple of those. Then I remembed the size thing so I can get one made for the same price and have it how I want it. Well, how the wife tells me I want it   

They dont seem to have the background that I have on their site. I love the background but I'm convinced its caused me a lot of problems so for piece of mind its going. I should be able to remove it without damage so I'll probably stick it in the shed.



			
				sks said:
			
		

> the good news is that you can definitely use the lilly pipes, the bad news is that it's going to take a long time for the hard water marks to dissolve under submersion of water, they really are hard to remove from glass.



Cool. Not to bothered about the marks at the moment as I have all the time in the world. I do have some tetra wipes which are pretty good for water marks but I'll see how it goes.



			
				sks said:
			
		

> Oh, and UV will BREAK down the EDTA chelator in the trace elements mix. I don't use UV myself and it's fine, are you scared of green water or white spot parasites?



You might want to run that first bit by me again    I got it in the first place just to zap parasites etc and as peace of mind really. I was going to include it this time round just because I have it, but not using it is no problem. One less thing to worry about!


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## bugs (27 Feb 2008)

FWIW - I use vinegar in a plant spray bottle. Also... If you hold kitchen paper on the glass and then spray it the paper helps to keep more of the vinegar in contact with the area being treated rather than running straight down the surface.

What you doing about a replacement cabinet? (Or have you mentioned that already?)


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## Vase (27 Feb 2008)

Cheers, I'll give that a go. I'm going to start trying to remove the background tomorrow and then I'll give the tank a really good clean. I'll get the wife to help while I watch   

I'm having a cabinet made by Aquariums Ltd. Once I've got what I want sorted (and 50% deposit) I'll give them a call and get it sorted. Takes about a month apparently.

I've got to decorate the room in the mean time and a lot needs doing  :?


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## TDI-line (28 Feb 2008)

Good luck with the background.

If you need any pictures of my cabinet, which is black with the black and aluminium doors then let me know.


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## StevenA (28 Feb 2008)

Wow what great potential that tank has, wish i had room for a tank that size  

Are you looking forward to setting it up again? I love setting up new tanks


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## sks (28 Feb 2008)

Vase said:
			
		

> sks said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The AE trace elements mix is complexed using EDTA as a chelator to make it plant accessible. If this chelator breaks down it releases what it is holding (which are the trace elements) into solution which is NOT what you want.

UV's can also break down ozone and malachite green (a popular white spot medication).

If you have parasitic organisms that are harmful to fish a UV unit will NOT fix the problem, it will just eliminate a portion of the free swimming organisms, it cannot kill the ones causing the grief on your fish, nor the ones hiding in the gravel/rocks etc . . .


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## Vase (28 Feb 2008)

Tourney said:
			
		

> Are you looking forward to setting it up again? I love setting up new tanks



Yes and no. Yes because of obvious reasons. I cant wait to get Discus in there and having no money has its advantages in some respects as it means I'll have to take my time giving me the chance to plan things out properly. And I wont spiral further into debt to set it up.

And no, because if I'm honest I'm scared something is going to go badly wrong and I dont want to have the same problems I did the other times I've set it up. I know far more now than I did then but even so, I'm aprehensive.

 :?


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## sks (28 Feb 2008)

you basically got everything you need just add substrate, plants and CO2. 3 150 watts metal halides are more than adequate.

For your tank, unless you want a deep substrate, you can probably get away with 6 or 7 bags of ECO complete, which would figure in about Â£140 worth.

DIY dry Ferts would probably be about Â£15 for 3 months supply, and CO2 bottles you can get cheaply if you know where to look.

Since you don't have any fish obligations you could use Aqua Soil and plant some HC or tennelus to grow in following Tom Barr's method to create a lawn before filling the tank, saving you a fair bit on the plants already.


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## Vase (28 Feb 2008)

I need 2x 2080's for starters and that doesnt include media. New cabinet, external heaters, the list goes on. All I have at the moment is one filter, lighting and the tank!


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## TDI-line (28 Feb 2008)

Vase said:
			
		

> I need 2x 2080's for starters and that doesnt include media. New cabinet, external heaters, the list goes on. All I have at the moment is one filter, lighting and the tank!



Here you go, with media..

http://www.1st4aquatics.com/index.asp?f ... uctid=1309


I think i'lll start a journal soon, seeing as we both have the same tank (but you have better lights  ), i find that there is soo much to learn, but i find the only way is to try different plants, and see what happens. I still have to install my pro 2 2028 at the other end, my pro 3e is doing a very good job though Vase. But i still have some BBA issues, but really need to get set up for water changes more efficiently. 

What kind of discus are you after?


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## Vase (28 Feb 2008)

Thanks for the link mate, but its the 2080's I need. They're 2028's   

Yeah, start a journal. Might be able to learn some stuff off each other along the way. My trouble is that I'm a perfectionist, so everything has to be just right   



This was the tank last time, just before all the problems started. Now I know what I didnt do and what I should have done differently....


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## StevenA (28 Feb 2008)

If you don't mind me asking Vase, what problems did you have?


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## sks (28 Feb 2008)

that's a very nice looking tank, a lot better than the WormWoods one.  

You might like to get 3 Eheim 2217 instead since that would be more than adequate and might save you a fair bit too, you don't need to go over crazy about turnover. It also gives you the option to spread the flow in 4 outputs.


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## Vase (28 Feb 2008)

Not at all mate.... 

Cold spots, dead spots, cyano (covered everything), stupidly high Gh/Kh, fluctuating ph and fish getting stuck behind the background where they were impossible to get out.

Apart from that it was alright   

I removed the background tonight and thanks to this forum I wont be making the same mistakes I did before. Knowing me I'll make all new ones!


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## Vase (28 Feb 2008)

sks said:
			
		

> that's a very nice looking tank, a lot better than the WormWoods one.
> 
> You might like to get 3 Eheim 2217 instead since that would be more than adequate and might save you a fair bit too, you don't need to go over crazy about turnover. It also gives you the option to spread the flow in 4 outputs.



I was actually thinking about a couple of Tetratec 1200's as I have one on my 200 litre, but it was after talking with Ceg that I decided on the 2080's.


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## ceg4048 (28 Feb 2008)

Vase said:
			
		

> sks said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In actual fact, you do need to go crazy about turnover. The bigger the tank the more crazy you have to get. You can make a lot of mistakes in a 20G tank and sometimes get away with it. Those same mistakes in a big tank turns your tank into The Poseidon Adventure. Flow is your salvation. It delivers nutrients to the plants more effectively. High flow delivers CO2 to deeper regions and to the nooks and crannies in a big tank. This allows you to keep carpet plants happy for example. High flow erases dead spots and cold spots. High flow keeps particles in suspension longer so that particles tend not to simply settle onto the substrate. More importantly, high flow means bigger filters with higher capacity to more effectively consume ammonia. If you only intend to grow the hardiest or less demanding of plants then all these issues may be less important, but high flow gives you a fighting chance to grow some of the more difficult species.  

Cheers,


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## TDI-line (29 Feb 2008)

Ok, i see now.

The 2080 is the Eheim Pro 3, covering upto 1200 litres. The only thing with this is i couldn't get the unit in any cabinet as it is huge. (Did actually try at Wildwoods in there ultimate dead tank). 

http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/fish/filt ... ters/37139


The 2078 Eheim Pro 3e, covering upto 700 litres just fits in, (which i bought)  i can get pics if you require Vase.

http://www.eheim.de/eheim/inhalte/index ... 28383_ehen


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## George Farmer (29 Feb 2008)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> In actual fact, you do need to go crazy about turnover.



I'm with Clive on this.

Almost all filters produce no way near their claimed outputs, some as low as a third actual flow i.e. a claimed 1200lph actually having 400lph.

For this reason I like to aim for around 10x claimed turnover, possibly even higher in large aquaria.  My nano has a claimed 30x turnover!

The 2080 are great, there's also the thermo version with built-in 500w heater.  I prefer the Hydor ETH300 external inline heater personally.

Have you considered a couple of FX5s, or are you decided on the 2080s?  Are you having one or two?


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## johnny70 (29 Feb 2008)

I have been  considering putting one of these 208's on my Rio 180   or is that overkill?

JOHNNY


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## ceg4048 (29 Feb 2008)

johnny70 said:
			
		

> I have been  considering putting one of these 208's on my Rio 180   or is that overkill?
> 
> JOHNNY



I'd go for it Johnny. It's difficult to over-filter a tank. Bigger is better and size matters in filtration.  

Cheers,


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## Dave Spencer (29 Feb 2008)

Vase said:
			
		

> I was actually thinking about a couple of Tetratec 1200's as I have one on my 200 litre, but it was after talking with Ceg that I decided on the 2080's.



I am planning a 240l that will have two tetratec 1200s. I will have an inline CO2 reactor that will affect the output of one of them, but I aim to compensate for this by leaving the media at a bare minimum in both filters. They will run with Purigen, Zeolite and a little sponge of varying grades for mechanical/biological filtration.


Get with the in crowd and over filter.   

Dave.


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## George Farmer (29 Feb 2008)

johnny70 said:
			
		

> I have been  considering putting one of these 2080 on my Rio 180   or is that overkill?
> 
> JOHNNY



Go for it.


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## gixer (29 Feb 2008)

Dunno about the 208 Johhny, but i've got a 2060 and Hydo 200w in-line heater on my 120L.

At the moment i'm running both this and my crap internal filter, so the spray bar is mounted on the rear of the tank.
At half flow the tank becomes a whirlpool, my Rasboaras go mental they love it.

If i turn the spray bar so it's pointing towards the rear of the tank i can run it 100% flow without too much turbulence.

As soon as the 2060 is cycled i'll rip off the side filter and mount the spray bar on the side.



Worst case scenario though, 100% flow across 30cm tank width and if you turn the spray bar towards the glass it's fine 



Cheers
Mark


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## Vase (29 Feb 2008)

So whats the general feeling about two Tetratec 1200's on my tank with my 2128?

I'd go for them if they will be sufficient  :?


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## sks (29 Feb 2008)

I'm planning a 6'x2'x2' in a few years time since I've managed to get a lawn on my first. I'll be using nothing more than 3 or maybe 4 Eheim 2217s. I have a 2260 I can make up, that about 2000 litres and hour and 18 litre tub, but I'll probably not be using it. The 2260 and the 2080 are extremely awkward to service because they are so heavy.

The 2217 is rated at 1000 litres an hour, at zero head and of course no resistance with hose attached. I'm sure in normal use you probably be getting 800 litres an hour. In my experience resistance build up on canister filters also has a lot to do with how you layer the filter media because I've experimented on this in the past. In general the larger the cross section the water has to go through, the more difficult it is to choke a filter, because water following a path of least resistance have more options. Having fine filter foam at the bottom also does not help, nor does using a thick layer of it on top when you should be using just enough.

I'm not saying that the 2080 is overkill and baring in mind Clive and George have much more experience than me when it comes to flow in planted tanks, but for me I'll be just using 2217s.


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## ceg4048 (29 Feb 2008)

Hi,
     Well, yes, it's not that you _can't_ be successful with lower flow. It's not what I meant to imply. You'll probably do fine with what you've got planned. It's that you margin of error is so much wider with higher flow. Eheim are the worst offenders of optimistic filter ratings. Their filters rarely if ever deliver more than 50-60% of their throughput rating - and that's using _their_ media set with the base of the filter placed at typical locations such as a meter or so form the water's surface. It also doesn't matter how you arrange the media within the canister, whether the pads are at the top or bottom. It  just seems like they use underpowered motors. I guess that contributes to their lower noise, lower vibration and to the lower power consumption ratings.

Cheers,


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## Vase (29 Feb 2008)

Apparently the Eheim does 1700lph for tanks up to 1200l and the Tetratec 1200 does 1200lph for tanks up to 500l.

I could get two Tetratecs with media for the price of one 2080 without media but would two of them  do the job?


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## sks (29 Feb 2008)

Another option is if you want a lot of flow cheaply is to put in powerheads with sponge attachments. The powerheads will give you more flow for your money since they won't have to go through all the resistance of tubing etc. . . .

You could get your 2 tetratecs and if flow is not enough use one of these:

www.ultimateaquatics.co.uk/acatalog/copy_of_Hydor_Koralia_Pumps.html

I'd make sure it can't suck up shrimp and small fish etc . . .


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## TDI-line (29 Feb 2008)

I think as long as you have a decent filter each end you will be ok.


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## Vase (29 Feb 2008)

Well I could have one Tetratec at each end and my Eheim 2128 in the middle. Any thoughts?


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## Dave Spencer (29 Feb 2008)

TDI-line said:
			
		

> I think as long as you have a decent filter each end you will be ok.



I pretty much agree with this. Having 100l/h of filtration at one end may not be as effective as having 300l/h at each end, in terms of movement of nutrients around the tank.

Dave.


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## Jeremy (29 Feb 2008)

Don't mix up flow with filtration, the two are two different things. 

You cannot over filter a tank but you can have too much flow for some plants.

Having said that, I would have no problems with ten times turnover in any planted tank.

Sks,

Why go for four 2217s?

That means four plugs and eight pipes, and 2217s don't even prime.

Check the wattage as well, 4 x any external may cost you dear in electricity

I did a review of external filters and the Tetratec was one of the best. Loads of media, strong, but controllable flow and it primes in seconds.


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## sks (29 Feb 2008)

Jeremy said:
			
		

> Don't mix up flow with filtration, the two are two different things.
> 
> You cannot over filter a tank but you can have too much flow for some plants.
> 
> ...



Eheim have complicated their range somewhat. The classics will last you a long time. Just a few weeks ago I broke the handle on my professionel 2 because I stored it dried and didn't realise to wet the O rings inside the double tap connector which made turning incredibly hard (and this is my fault by the way).

I just like a completely void filter chamber with the shutoff taps out of the way.

Priming is not an issue for me, and no you don't need to get a mouthful of tank water if you know what you are doing.

The 2080 I would hazard a guess is 38 watts. The 2217s are 20 watts each. I will be using 3 or 4 2217s on my new 6' and distribute their flows accordingly.

Also most modern media these days have incredibly amounts of surface area so you don't need to have lots of media to do a lot of work, but I do accept the point of having a lot of filtration to deal with ammonia immediately and the only way to do this is to have vigorous water flow and fast filtration. But you do have to take into account the reaction time of the bacteria etc . . .

Vase,
Another suggestion is a wet/dry sump setup using a rotating spray bar and DLS (probably 2 towers which you have to seal). You could make it out of glass and have a strong 3000 - 4000 l/h return pump and that will give you more than enough for what you need. But you need to know what you are doing to implement something of this order requires a lot of experience. You would also need to either drill a hole in your tank and put in a barrier or use a syphon box. If you lived near me I could help you build something like this since I have such a system running for over 15 years on my fish only.


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## Vase (29 Feb 2008)

Dave Spencer said:
			
		

> TDI-line said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I know I shouldnt go by flow etc as its going to be reduced a fair bit but going by the stats each tetratec would give me 1200lph at each end of the tank and then I'd have another 1000 odd lph in the middle with the Eheim. I'm happy to buy two 2080's but I'll save a fortune if the tetratecs will do a good job.


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## Jeremy (29 Feb 2008)

You don't want a wet dry sump dude.

Another name for trickle filters is degassing towers.

Goodbye CO2.

If you opt for a sump, go for the freshwater version of the Ecosystem, with plants growing in the sump.

Underworld distribute freshwater Ecosystems in the UK.

I wouldn't even have wet/dry on marines.

It is an out of date method that produces nitrate.


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## Vase (29 Feb 2008)

I'm going to stick with externals as I want to keep things fairly simple this time round. But thanks for the suggestions   

I'm torn between two tetratecs and two 2080's. I'd pretty much decided on the eheims but if the tetratecs will do a good job I'll go for those and save myself a fortune


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## TDI-line (29 Feb 2008)

Are you getting the cabinet made first? 

Well worth checking the size of those 2080's under your unit, 567x330x330, then add on your hoses etc.


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## Vase (29 Feb 2008)

Yeah, cabinets going to be 30" high so plenty of room for any external. Just need to decide which ones  :?


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## nry (29 Feb 2008)

zooplus.co.uk did my EX600 for Â£45 delivered, way cheaper than UK - might be worth a look for the larger versions, they do other brands aswell, all come with a UK plug adapter too.


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## Vase (29 Feb 2008)

Cheers mate, never thought to look on there. I often use Zooplus for treats for my dog


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## sks (29 Feb 2008)

Jeremy said:
			
		

> You don't want a wet dry sump dude.
> 
> Another name for trickle filters is degassing towers.
> 
> ...



Note I stated to seal the tower.

Actually sumps are very good if used correctly:

1) you get constant water level in your main tank (assuming of course the rate of output of the return pump is constant)

2) unlike canister filters mechanical filtration is neatly segregated (depends on your implementation), which means that as it gets clogged you could change it directly without having to the awkwardness of turning off and decoupling shut off taps and opening and the closing the canister

Here is an image of my working syphon box:






the thing is that you can calculate water flow by the height of the water over the barrier. The dirt building up on the polymer wool is 2 days worth. You have to bare in mind that I keep large synodontis catfish and barbs, so they're messy.

3) the bio tower is maintenance free. It is never to be touched at all. I've not touched my bio tower since the day it was put in place

4) you can now put a heater in the sump and any other things that take your fancy, you could also run your CO2 reactor on your sump knowing that the water will be returned to the tank

5) adding extra reactors and chemical filtration is a breeze

6) implementation of water change and water top up is also a breeze . . 

drawbacks:

1) large space required, best suited to good cabinets with total open void space
2) you could have water running about if you DON'T know what you are doing - and most don't unfortunately
3) operation and trouble shooting is also rather subtle to understand for most hobbyists

wet/dry towers fell out of favour with the reef community because they were just nitrate factories, what they do now is to skim the water before hitting the ammonia tower. We don't care about nitrate factories :idea:  since our plants want the nitrate (and BGA is horrible stuff to have).


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## Jeremy (3 Mar 2008)

Sks,

If you seal your tower how does oxygen get in?

Also, when you so conveniently remove dirty mechanical media from a sump, all the gunk gets shot back into the main tank.

As we are on the subject of external freshwater filtering methods, a bead filter is a good option for large tanks.

Overflow boxes, homemade or otherwise are noisy and problematic. If you ever go for a sump, drill the tank and install a top and bottom scavenging weir.

No doubt sks will put me right.


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## sks (5 Mar 2008)

Jeremy said:
			
		

> Sks,
> 
> If you seal your tower how does oxygen get in?
> 
> ...



1) oxygen does not get in. The bio media would effectively function as if it were immersed. I personally, over a decade ago, was told NOT to use trickle filters for a planted tank. When I saw on the internet some hobbyists using them quite effectively I changed my mind. But the idea is to seal the tower, otherwise you would gas away the CO2.
2) this brings me to the point about it being a nitrate factory: what do you think closed canister filters are? They are also nitrate factories. We don't have the aid of skimming to remove organic loads before they are broken down (I do use a freshwater protein skimmer, but that would drive out CO2 in a planted tank). A trickle arrangement would be a very effective nitrate factory since you can have a LOT of water flow through it. But this leaves us the question if having too strong a biological filter is bad since you rob the plants of their own ability to get rid of ammonia.
3) hence from above 2 points such a wet/dry setup would only bring convenience as an advantage. You could submerge the media, but water level in sump is variable, which is why you have it out of the water. Also having the media out of the water allows for a more uniform flow (if you know what I mean). Using a rotating spray bar with DLS you can exploit the "chimney" effect. (but that's another story for another day), and have uniform wetting of the media.
4) overflow boxes are not noisy and problematic. They are noisy and problematic if you don't make them right (gurgling effects, water falling too high etc . . . ). They are noisy and problematic if you DON'T know what you are doing - and most don't.
5) the dirt in the sump can be serviced with a filter attached to it, and/or having mechanical barriers etc. . . . there are a loads of other solutions. (Also, if you think about it, would any self respecting reef keeper let his super expensive return pump suck up detritus to push back to main tank.) This means that the bio media is maintenance free. I hate having to open my canisters and cleaning out the bio media in tank water and putting it all back again (and replacing the mechanical media as well)

Sump set ups are here to stay, and will always have applications. They give a lot of flexibility if you need to do a lot of things (which is why reef keepers use them). One of the drawbacks is high evaporation and salt creep, but that can be fixed if you know how to design a sump.


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## ceg4048 (5 Mar 2008)

Hi,
     A couple of points apart from the advantage/disadvantage of trickle filters - Having strong biological filtration is never, ever a bad thing. Ammonia uptake by plants, especially in a high light tank is not a prerequisite and should never be considered as "robbing" the plants of some vital function. Further, in the "ideal" scenario, the biological filters do all the ammonia conversion and the plants simply use the resultant nitrate. Since we are dosing relatively high concentrations of KNO3, ammonia availability is neither a desirable condition nor is it necessarily relevant as far as plant uptake. The presence of ammonia is heavily correlated to Algal proliferation and should be minimized as much as possible. This is why bigger filters filled with huge surface area biomedia should be a primary goal, _especially _in a big tank.

Secondly, most of what we consider "the good bacteria" thrive within an oxygen rich environment. These are referred to as aerobic bacteria. The bacteria which proliferate in oxygen poor environments are "anaerobic" bacteria and normally do bad things in our tanks. There is a symbiotic relationship therefore between the plants and the "good" bacteria in that oxygen production and ejection into the water column by plants during the photoperiod facilitates ammonia reduction by those bacteria. Ammonia reduction is a deterrent to the development of the algae which are a constant threat to the plants.

Cheers,


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## sks (5 Mar 2008)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Hi,
> A couple of points apart from the advantage/disadvantage of trickle filters - Having strong biological filtration is never, ever a bad thing. Ammonia uptake by plants, especially in a high light tank is not a prerequisite and should never be considered as "robbing" the plants of some vital function. Further, in the "ideal" scenario, the biological filters do all the ammonia conversion and the plants simply use the resultant nitrate. Since we are dosing relatively high concentrations of KNO3, ammonia availability is neither a desirable condition nor is it necessarily relevant as far as plant uptake. The presence of ammonia is heavily correlated to Algal proliferation and should be minimized as much as possible. This is why bigger filters filled with huge surface area biomedia should be a primary goal, _especially _in a big tank.
> 
> Secondly, most of what we consider "the good bacteria" thrive within an oxygen rich environment. These are referred to as aerobic bacteria. The bacteria which proliferate in oxygen poor environments are "anaerobic" bacteria and normally do bad things in our tanks. There is a symbiotic relationship therefore between the plants and the "good" bacteria in that oxygen production and ejection into the water column by plants during the photoperiod facilitates ammonia reduction by those bacteria. Ammonia reduction is a deterrent to the development of the algae which are a constant threat to the plants.
> ...



Well in that case, Clive, that's covered.   :idea: 

So, you are saying, to the effect (and correct me if I'm wrong), even if we are only using 10% of our biological filtering capacity of 4 large canister filters because the media it contains is SO high in surface area (Eheim Efisubstrat comes to mind), we have the added bonus of a lot of flow and mixing as well, and a LOT of capacity to spare (and grow more good bacteria should the need/load requires), and that can only be a good thing?

My way of looking at it is to provide sufficiently excessive biological filtration and let the cheap wave making powerheads do the rest. You now have the best of both worlds and use less expense. In the old days people were told not to run their bio towers with too much water flow since you could wash off the bacteria. I'm sure that there is some kind of relationship between contact time and ammonia conversion.


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## ceg4048 (5 Mar 2008)

sks said:
			
		

> So, you are saying, to the effect (and correct me if I'm wrong), even if we are only using 10% of our biological filtering capacity of 4 large canister filters because the media it contains is SO high in surface area (Eheim Efisubstrat comes to mind), we have the added bonus of a lot of flow and mixing as well, and a LOT of capacity to spare (and grow more good bacteria should the need/load requires), and that can only be a good thing?



Yep, the more surface area that comes into contact with the water the higher the baseline nitrifying bacteria population. Also, since they increase their population geometrically, when the need does arise such as increased fish load or overfeeding or any potential ammonia spike the population increase is more dramatic and quicker than if you had lesser capacity. The spike is therefore attenuated better with higher capacity since your baseline population would be higher to begin with. I guess a shock absorber comes to mind as an analogy.



			
				sks said:
			
		

> My way of looking at it is to provide sufficiently excessive biological filtration and let the cheap wave making powerheads do the rest. You now have the best of both worlds and use less expense. In the old days people were told not to run their bio towers with too much water flow since you could wash off the bacteria. I'm sure that there is some kind of relationship between contact time and ammonia conversion.



Well, it might be more illuminating to separate the concepts of flow and filtration. Flow delivers the nutrients to the surface of the plants and sweeps the ammonia away. Many people overlook the fact that at the surface of the plant leaf there is a thin boundary layer of zero velocity flow along the leaf surface.  This occurs simply due to friction. As the plant absorbs the nutrients/CO2 in this thin boundary layer, in a low flow environment it then has to depend more on osmotic forces to have new nutrients delivered across the boundary layer. Higher ambient flow facilitates a non-zero boundary layer velocity, in effect, force feeding the leaf constantly with new supply of nutrients/CO2, and taking away any organic waste.

In a high capacity/high surface area filtration the importance of contact time is mitigated by the fact that the inlet water comes into contact with more bacteria bodies, so that although the contact time with each body is lower due to flow rate, more bodies can act upon the remaining ammonia as it passes through the gauntlet. I believe that some of the advantage of a high flow filter would be wasted if there is not high surface area biomedia inside to take advantage of the space.

High flow and high capacity therefore go hand in hand so that the powerhead solution is much less effective since it solves only half the puzzle (an important half nonetheless.)  

Cheers,


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## TDI-line (15 Mar 2008)

Any update Vase?


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## Vase (17 Mar 2008)

Not yet mate    Its laying on the dining room floor empty at the moment while I decorate the dining room. I havent actually bought any equipment yet but thats related to lack of funds at the moment.

I'll keep you posted


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## TDI-line (14 Jan 2009)

Any news on this one Vase?


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## GreenNeedle (14 Jan 2009)

A quick tip on the 'hard to remove' water lines.

You will scrub for hours to try and remove the white line of calcium etc BUT if you go into poundland (or a DIY store) and get a glass scraper (they are called wallpaper scrapers in Poundland) then these are awesome.

The Poundland one is like a 3-4 inch stanley blade which is the wrong way round for wallpaper stripping.  undo the 3 screw and turn the blade around and you have the stanley razor edge.

I use these to scrape deposits off my windows, ceramic glass hob Oh and the tank before using the scrubber just to thoroughly clean where it was.

I would go for the Tetratecs IMO.  For the money you can't really warrant spending double for not much extra.  They are easy to use anyway, have a 3 year guarantee and Tetratec normally send replacement parts if anything goes wrong with not many questions as they need to build a reputation with the EOC always recommending Eheim filters as unbeatable.
As for filtering/flow  I tend to have my filter just there for filtration and ignore wether its output is any good or not, then use a Koralia to give me the flow.


This should be a good tank.  Would be good to see some pics with that background gone.  A clean background is much cleaner looking IMO than printed ones or sculpted ones which to me are just distracting from the fish and plants.

Keep us updated

AC


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## hellohefalump (14 Jan 2009)

Don't know if you've got rid of those watermarks yet, but lemon juice works well, and isn't toxic to fish.


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## aaronnorth (14 Jan 2009)

hellohefalump said:
			
		

> Don't know if you've got rid of those watermarks yet, but lemon juice works well, and isn't toxic to fish.



as is any other acidic like vinegar.


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## Vase (15 Jan 2009)

Hey,

The only news I have is that the background has gone, but the tank is still in the same place on the floor...lol. Fish keeping took a serious backburner and is slowly returning. Hence my recent postings. I need to get my dining room floor tiled, then the room decorated. Once thats done I'm going to get the stand custom built and go from there. With another dog on the way (litter due Feb 18th!) thats something else to deal with. One of the reasons for the tiled floor   

I've got a little writing pad that I've been using to plan the tank and now things seem so simple its great. You lot have been very helpful and supportive and my confidence seems to be returning, so thank you. I'm old school when it comes to fish keeping so I've got to re-learn stuff and catch up.

The main thing thats messing with my planning at the moment is substrate. I'm kind of like this. One minute in, only with substrate.. 

So the tasks include:
Get custom stand built
Clean the tank!
Replace bracing on tank
Get custom tank made for product water
Upgrade RO unit
Source equipment: Fire extinguisher, Tetratecs, heaters etc
Decide on a substrate
Clean halide pendant and replace bulbs
Decide on hardscape, plants and fish stock, including Discus
Set up quarantine tank
And then get all the little bits that seem to add up and cost a fortune.

That about covers it


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## TDI-line (15 Jan 2009)

Good luck Vase.    

Lol at the Fast show.


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## hellohefalump (15 Jan 2009)

Sounds like you've really thought it through.  Hopefully, with this amount of planning the tank will be a major success!  I love discus, but my 100gal is full of other fish.


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## Dan Crawford (15 Jan 2009)

Let me know if you need a hand mate, i'm in Northants too. I could probably help with some of the equipment too if you need it.


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## Vase (21 Jan 2009)

Dan Crawford said:
			
		

> Let me know if you need a hand mate, i'm in Northants too. I could probably help with some of the equipment too if you need it.



Thanks mate, thats mighty awesome of you    I'm gonna need all the help I can get!

The planning is about 90% complete, but still a few things to sort. I'm a perfectionist so I'm even working out where and how I'll be plugging things in. The main thing to plan now is the overflow set up (from product water tank) and a few water changing details. Its stopped for the minute as I've trapped a nerve in my wrist and I cant write or sketch!   

I'm recording all the fish and plants I like but I'll probably have to do the decor as I set up the tank. I cant plan stuff like that. Cant wait to get a nice group of 15 Stendkers in it!


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## Joecoral (21 Jan 2009)

Vase said:
			
		

> I'm recording all the fish and plants I like but I'll probably have to do the decor as I set up the tank. I cant plan stuff like that. Cant wait to get a nice group of 15 Stendkers in it!



Ooh, make sure you put loads of pics up, I love the Stendkers, especially their red turqs and fire reds, colours are fantastic!
Where will you be going for them, Daydream Discus? They're not too far from you I dont think


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