# DIY Fertilizer Formula Recommendation



## Hanuman

Hello everyone. 

I have posted this in a facebook group but it doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

I am tired of paying outrageous prices for liquid fertilizers so I though of making my own with dry salts. I know, there is a ton of info out there and believe me I have been scavenging the internet for the past week in search of a formula that suits me. I read many websites and forums and tried a few calculators. Tom Barr has been extremely insightful with all the information he has posted through the years so thanks to him for that. This said, chemistry not being my specialty all this is giving me more headaches than I wish it had and there seems to be many different opinions out there of what is good and bad.

Anyway I came across Jame's Planted Tank reformulations of TPN+ (http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/allinone.htm) but also a few others here and there. Initially I thought I would import only the CSM+B and go from there since I already have all other dry ferts. But then I got the quote for importing CSM+B so I decided against it. So I moved on and I also came across the *APT Complete* made by Xiaozhuang Wong (Dennis Wong) which is basically something I would like to recreate. Perhaps if I was in Singapore I would buy it but being in Thailand it just makes it pricy to import. He does mention the ppm for each macro so I was more-less able to reverse engineer the weight of each chemical with a calculator (https://eketjall.se/akvariekalkylatorn/). However he does not give details about micros ppm (secret receipe I guess). He says he does not use CSM+B as it is trash. Tom Barr seem to think differently. See, even experts don't agree  so it makes me even more confused.

Anyway, I just checked my stock of dry ferts and lo and behold I have all individual chemicals, including micros/trace elements! Only thing missing now is a good recipe. Here is the list of individual chemicals I have in my possession: 

Calcium Nitrate (Ca 15%, N 15.5%)
Iron DTPA (Fe-DTPA 7%)
Iron EDTA (Fe-EDTA 13.5%)
Potassium Nitrate (13-0-46)
Magnesium Sulphate (Mg 9.35%)
Monopotassium Phosphate (0-52-34)
Monoammonium Phosphate (12-60-0)
Potassium Sulphate (0-0-50)
Manganese EDTA (Mn-EDTA 13%)
Boron (B 20.9%)
Zinc Chelate (Zn 14%)
Sodium Molybdate (Mo 39.5%)
Copper Chelate (Cu 14%)
So here go my questions:

- Are all these chemical suitable to produce a liquid fertilizer?

- If yes can anyone provide a complete formula approaching the one of the APT Complete of Dennis Wong (or something in the same vein)?

My considerations are:
- Reduce fertilisation to once a week, if possible. If not then the least possible of times per week;
- Make a all-in-one fertilization liquid;
- I have some empty 500ml bottles delivering 2ml per pump that I could use;
- I have 3 tanks. 90cm, 60cm, 36cm. All pretty much heavy planted. The 60 is only composed of bucephalandra;

If a kind hearted, experienced wizard ‍♂️could help me out creating a formula that can fit the above it would be highly appreciated. Thank you.


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Hanuman said:


> Here is the list of individual chemicals I have in my possession:
> 
> Calcium Nitrate (Ca 15%, N 15.5%)
> Iron DTPA (Fe-DTPA 7%)
> Iron EDTA (Fe-EDTA 13.5%)
> Potassium Nitrate (13-0-46)
> Magnesium Sulphate (Mg 9.35%)
> Monopotassium Phosphate (0-52-34)
> Monoammonium Phosphate (12-60-0)
> Potassium Sulphate (0-0-50)
> Manganese EDTA (Mn-EDTA 13%)
> Boron (B 20.9%)
> Zinc Chelate (Zn 14%)
> Sodium Molybdate (Mo 39.5%)
> Copper Chelate (Cu 14%)
> So here go my questions:
> 
> - Are all these chemical suitable to produce a liquid fertilizer?


They are all soluble, so the answer is "yes".  Once a salt has dissolved into ions, every K+ ion is the same as every other K+ ion, it doesn't matter which compound they came from. We use compounds like potassium nitrate (KNO3) because you get more "bang for your buck", both the anion (NO3-) and the cation (K+) are macro-nutrients.

You could make an "all in one", you would need to acidify it with a weak acid, citric or acetic acid etc.

Have a look at <"James Planted Tank">, that gives you the breakdown of various commercial "all in one" formulations.

If you use the monoammonium phosphate (NH4H2PO4) you need to be aware that the ammonia/ammonium is toxic to livestock at fairly low levels, but you can leave it out and use the other compounds to supply both PO4--- and N (as the non-toxic NO3).

You'll also need to convert the N-P-K values for the fertilisers to % element. The formulae  to do that are in  <"percentage.....">, if you read to the end of the page it has a couple of worked examples.

The other thing is that the MgSO4 is the <"heptahydrate (MgSO4.7H2O)">, which is why it is ~10% Mg, calcium nitrate is the tetrahydrate etc.

cheers Darrel


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## Hanuman

dw1305 said:


> Have a look at <"James Planted Tank">, that gives you the breakdown of various commercial "all in one" formulations.



Thanks Darrel. Appreciate the input. Yes that's the one I wanted to give a shot initially but he uses the CSM+B which is pricy to import here.



dw1305 said:


> You'll also need to convert the N-P-K values for the fertilisers to % element. The formulae  to do that are in  <"percentage.....">, if you read to the end of the page it has a couple of worked examples.



Meaning I can find out the weight of the trace elements by looking at the % of the DIY TPN+ (3) ?


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Hanuman said:


> Yes that's the one I wanted to give a shot initially but he uses the CSM+B which is pricy to import here.


I've just seen your <"other post">, and I'd just use the "NIC- Spray trace element solution". As @Zeus. says it doesn't contain absolutely everything, but the nutrients plants need as really trace trace elements are unlikely to cause deficiency (basically "_any at all_" is enough). 





Hanuman said:


> Meaning I can find out the weight of the trace elements by looking at the % of the DIY TPN+ (3) ?


Yes.

cheers Darrel


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## Hanuman

dw1305 said:


> As @Zeus. says it doesn't contain absolutely everything, but the nutrients plants need as really trace trace elements are unlikely to cause deficiency (basically "_any at all_" is enough). Yes.
> cheers Darrel



Actually it does contain Nickel. I asked the reseller of the product to send me the certificate of analysis from the actual producer. I just received it a few minutes ago. The reason why the reseller don't add the nickel content to the packaging of NIC-SPRAY is because they have to send samples of the product for analysis by government laboratories and for some reason they did not detect nickel. Perhaps old hardware? lol

Here is the certificate:


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## Edvet

My fert provider went from CSM-B to Tenso cocktail, maybe have a look at that.


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## Zeus.

My comment about No Nickel was more of an observation as the trace elements which are quoted on APFUK is ( their website is down ATM due to hols but I have a copy)





which has no Ni in according to the data sudofed give them.

So I based my custom DIY trace mix on the percentages when doing my Fe DTPA/EDDHA mix, so havnet added Ni myself either to my trace mix...........


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## Zeus.

TNC Trace didnt have Ni either


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## Zeus.

Just checked my water company for its water report and water has 20μg Ni/l which by my rough calculations results in a higher Ni ppm than if it was in the Micro ferts


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## Aqua sobriquet

The PCV for Nickel in my area is 20ug/l Luckily the maximum reading last year was only 3.24.


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## Hanuman

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, I've just seen your <"other post">, and I'd just use the "NIC- Spray trace element solution"



Isn't the copper content in the nic-spray too high for fish/shrimp?


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Hanuman said:


> Isn't the copper content in the nic-spray too high for fish/shrimp?


Yes it is quite high. Because it is a chelate not all of that copper (Cu) will become immediately available. 

I wouldn't use it as your primary iron (Fe) or magnesium (Mg), source for that reason. You already have iron and magnesium covered with the MgSO4.7H2O and FeDTPA/FeEDTA. 

You only need a trace of the other micro-elements, so I'd aim for a "safe" copper dose from the NIC spray.  The actual level of safe is going to depend on all sorts of variables, soft water would make copper more available, tannic and humic substances would chelate copper and make it available over a much longer time period.  

I'm not interested in optimal plant growth, so I'm happy to trade some nutrient deficiencies for lower risk.  

cheers Darrel


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## Hanuman

Ok so what about using the individual chemicals that I have instead of the nic-spray. Wouldn't that be better?


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## Hanuman

Looking at Jame's Planted tank I would need the following chems. I was also able to calculate the % element. Correct me if I am wrong please.



What I am unsure is how to reverse all the % of the DIY TPN+ (3) to weights considering Jame's NPK% might not be the same as mine specially the trace elements as he using a premix (CSM+B). His formula states:

*DIY TPN+ (3)*

48g Potassium Nitrate
2.2g Monopotassium Phosphate
17g Magnesium Sulphate Heptahydrate (Epsom Salts)
0.5g E300 Ascorbic Acid
0.2g E202 Potassium Sorbate
5g EDTA Chelated Trace Elements Mix (TNC Trace, CSM+B)
500ml distilled water




Could you help me figure that out so I can just go and weight the chemical in the scale?

Sorry if all this seems so basic for you but all these conversions are making my head turn and I just don't want to be making wild guesses or stupid mistakes and then ending up killing all the fish and shrimps.

Thank a lot Darell for all the help provided so far.


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Hanuman said:


> Ok so what about using the individual chemicals that I have instead of the nic-spray. Wouldn't that be better?


It would, you might find it is quite time consuming. I used to make up my own trace element solutions for lab. work etc.

Because you are going to be dealing with really small weights of compound, I would use <"serial dilution"> to reduce the errors in weighing., and then only add the separate micro-element solutions together (into the composite solution) right at the end. You would need to take into account the volume of the final storage vessel when you work out the ppm of nutrient supplied. 

Serial dilution means you either end up with a very large volume of micro-element solution, or you are going to throw most of it away. Even if you pour most of the solutions you've made up away, it will still end up cheaper than buying a ready diluted trace mix.

cheers Darrel


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Hanuman said:


> I was also able to calculate the % element. Correct me if I am wrong please.


<"You are right">. It is only the P and K that are expressed as oxides, everything else is as percentage of the element. 





Hanuman said:


> What I am unsure is how to reverse all the % of the DIY TPN+ (3) to weights considering James' NPK% might not be the same as mine specially the trace elements as he using a premix (CSM+B).


Have a look at <"24hr Aquarist....">. I use a spreadsheet with a periodic table, but <"Chemical Tools"> does the same job.

Personally I'd make them up as three separate solutions. You can always combine a small volume of these (one months worth?) into an "all in one". I would use the <"Duckweed Index"> as an indication of when more fertiliser was required, but you could use a regular addition and then tailor your water changes, so that you don't get continually rising conductivity.

Solution 1: Macro-nutrients and magnesium.
Solution 2: Iron chelates.
Solution 3: Trace elements.

For "Solution 1" I'd aim for 20 ppm NO3 and K, 5 ppm P, 2 ppm Mg in the tank. You can use the <"Rotala Butterfly"> calculator for these.
For "Solution 2" I'd aim for 0.5 ppm Fe in the tank. 

For "Solution 3". I wouldn't get too bogged down in trying to find the <"perfect trace element mix">.  Just choose one of the trace mixes you like from <"James' Planted Tank - Comparison of traces..." > (below) and replicate that. You've already got iron and magnesium, so you don't need to add them to the micro-element mix.






> James says - *Solutions*
> 
> The Haack Micro+ and Micro+ ProFe traces come in a concentrate and are diluted as directed 25ml in 500ml water.
> The TNC Trace, Chempak and CSM+B traces come in powder form and have been made into a solution by adding 3g of trace to 250ml of water.


Have a look at the <"linked thread"> as well.

It is exactly this process for any element, the only difference for the trace elements is that the weights would be really small, which is why I suggest making up a stronger solution initially and then diluting it.  





dw1305 said:


> *Stock solution*
> If you don't want to dose with dry salts you can make up a stock solution. In this case I've dissolved 100g of KH2PO4 in 1000 mL (1 litre) of water as my stock solution and then I've dosed 10 mL of this stock solution into my 100 litre tank, which has added ~7ppm PO4--- and ~3ppm K+.
> 
> If I wanted 5ppm PO4--- it is 7.16mL of my stock solution, or easier to do 71.6g of KH2PO4 in one litre as the stock solution and a 10cm3 dose. In both cases you would add 2ppm K+ as well.


cheers Darrel


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## Hanuman

dw1305 said:


> For "Solution 1" I'd aim for 20 ppm NO3 and K, 5 ppm P, 2 ppm Mg in the tank. You can use the <"Rotala Butterfly"> calculator for these.
> For "Solution 2" I'd aim for 0.5 ppm Fe in the tank.



Quick question before I get into more details or stupid questions . These PPM values are daily targets or weekly targets?


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## Zeus.

Weekly dose in tank

There is no stupid question  always best to ask


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## dw1305

Hi all,





Zeus. said:


> Weekly dose in tank


Yes.

Because I don't dose regularly, they are just best guess, "ball-park", figures.

The advantages of dry salts and "DIY" mixes is that you can tailor your dosing to you own specific requirements.  Have a look at @HiNtZ, @Zeus.  and @X3NiTH posts in <"Can zinc.....">. Compared to the other people mentioned I'm a pretty shoddy aquarist, so I tend to use the <"sprinkle a bit in"> method.

Having said that this is going to sound ridiculous but I use a <"risk management"> approach to aquarium management. I don't think that the <"amount of fertiliser"> I add to the tank is really that critical, as long as I don't go mad with something containing <"urea"> or <"ammonia">.

As long as I have:

a reasonable plant mass,
including some plants with the aerial advantage, 
and those plants are in, at least minimal, growth
I'm happy, and so are the livestock.

cheers Darrel


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## HiNtZ

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,Yes.
> 
> Because I don't dose regularly, they are just best guess, "ball-park", figures.
> 
> The advantages of dry salts and "DIY" mixes is that you can tailor your dosing to you own specific requirements.  Have a look at @HiNtZ, @Zeus.  and @X3NiTH posts in <"Can zinc.....">. Compared to the other people mentioned I'm a pretty shoddy aquarist, so I tend to use the <"sprinkle a bit in"> method.
> 
> Having said that this is going to sound ridiculous but I use a <"risk management"> approach to aquarium management. I don't think that the <"amount of fertiliser"> I add to the tank is really that critical, as long as I don't go mad with something containing <"urea"> or <"ammonia">.
> 
> As long as I have:
> 
> a reasonable plant mass,
> including some plants with the aerial advantage,
> and those plants are in, at least minimal, growth
> I'm happy, and so are the livestock.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Despite what we discussed in those threads (including https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/reconstituters.55797/) I'm still chasing the dream.

I'm pretty worried that the day I find the perfect balance, I'll have nothing to do!!

With all those salts you're going to want a decent calculator, I would not recommend anything more highly than Zorfox's calc. It installs straight onto the PC. Plenty of other tools built in too.

Without it I think I would be pretty lost - only compound missing from the list that I use is MgCO3 but I know the weights > ppm by heart now so it's a minor.


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





HiNtZ said:


> Zorfox's calc


I couldn't remember what that one was called, perfect.

<"Zorfox' Planted Tank Calculator">.

cheers Darrel


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## Hanuman

I have been looking at the APT Complete ppm values. As recommended in the website a 4 x dosing per week brings N to 6ppm and to 10.5ppm if 7 x week. Same for K at 16 ppm for 4 x a week and 28ppm if 7 x week.

Looking at the recommendations you gave:


dw1305 said:


> For "Solution 1" I'd aim for 20 ppm NO3 and K, 5 ppm P, 2 ppm Mg in the tank.


your values seems to fit very closely for a 7 x week but for N and K that would bring the concentration to 38.5ppm total (10.5+28). Wouldn't that be too much?




 

What is difficult to understand is what is too much or too little or just right in terms of ppm.


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## dw1305

Hi all,





Hanuman said:


> N and K that would bring the concentration to 38.5ppm total (10.5+28). Wouldn't that be too much?


The "_4 times a week_" dosing is plenty.  

To convert from nitrogen (N) to nitrate (NO3) you need to multiply by 4.43 (14/62), so that would give you 46.5 ppm NO3 at "_7 times a week"_ and 26.5 ppm NO3 at "_4 times a week_". 

The suggested "_20 ppm NO3 and K, 5 ppm P, 2 ppm Mg in the tank_" are just ball-park figures, anywhere near will do.





Hanuman said:


> What is difficult to understand is what is too much or too little or just right in terms of ppm.


There isn't really a right or wrong answer, it is going to depend on the amount and intensity of light (PAR), how quickly your plants are growing, what plants you have, how much CO2 is available etc.

If you have very quick growing, non-CO2 limited plants, grown under high light intensity then they will be able to make use of <"all the nutrients you can give them">. 

That is why I like the <"Duckweed Index">, you don't need to worry about exact measurement or anything else, you just <"look at the plants">.

Even though they have very different aims and methods, the idea behind the "Estimative Index" (EI) is the same. You don't need to try and measure levels of nutrients in the aquarium, or worry too much about ,<"accurate weighing"> (you use teaspoons), you just follow the EI recipe and have a 50% water change every week. 

They don't sound as <"scientific"> as methods as those that involve continually water testing and exact ratios and recipes, but they are robust methods that are based on the scientific methodology and, more important, they work. 

cheers Darrel


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## Penta

The values of _APT Complete_ that Dennis Wong posted on his website are for NO3 and PO4, not N and P. 
Its designed for active substrate (or dirted), with lots of Nitrogen in it.


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## Hanuman

Penta said:


> The values of _APT Complete_ that Dennis Wong posted on his website are for NO3 and PO4, not N and P.
> Its designed for active substrate (or dirted), with lots of Nitrogen in it.



Thank you. So you are saying that ATP is not suitable for aquasoils like Amazonia from ADA or Black Earth from Cal Aqua Labs?


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Penta said:


> _APT Complete_ that Dennis Wong posted on his website are for NO3 and PO4, not N and P


Found it, <"JUST 1ML PER 20L ADDS THE FOLLOWING: 1.5ppm NO3, 0.7ppm PO4  & 4ppm K">. 

You can convert from phosphorus (P) to phosphate (PO4) and from either PO4 or P to P2O5 (the way phosphorus values are <"quoted for fertilisers">). 
The workings (from the linked thread) are below, but 5 ppm P is equivalent to ~15ppm PO4--- (5/0.326). 





dw1305 said:


> To convert P2O5 to P you multiply by 0.436.
> 
> If you want to know how much PO4--- that is, it is bit more complicated because you need to know the percentage of P in P2O5 (43.7) and the percentage of P in PO4 (32.6), the divide 43.7/32.6 = 1.34, so 10 mg/L P2O5 = 13.4 mg/L PO4, to go the other way around PO4 to P2O5 its 32.6/43.7 to give you multiply by 0.747.





Penta said:


> Its designed for active substrate (or dirted), with lots of Nitrogen in it.





Hanuman said:


> So you are saying that ATP is not suitable for aquasoils like Amazonia from ADA or Black Earth from Cal Aqua Labs?


You need @Penta to comment, but my reading would be that the APT mix is designed for substrates (like ADA Amazonia) with a reserve of nitrogen (N) present. Because of this the "ATP complete" it is very light on nitrogen, when compared to its potassium (K+) etc content. 

If you do them as a ratio of N: P : K for "ATP complete" it is: *3.4 : 2.3: 40* 
((1.5*0.224): (0.7*0.33): 4. I multiplied them by 10 to make them easily comparable).

Personally I just wouldn't get too bogged down in exact ratios, replicating some-one elses recipe etc. Just choose values and make the solution up, you can tweak it afterwards, if you need to. 

The plants really don't care, it doesn't matter where it came from, once an ion (PO4---, K+, NO3- etc) is in solution, every K+ ion is identical to every other K+ ion.

cheers Darrel


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## Hanuman

What I have been confused about is the NPK values tagged along the chemicals. In fact I just realized that is doesn't matter at all because we are dealing with raw unmixed chemicals. For example Potassium Nitrate will always be 13-0-46. That NPK is what makes it Potassium Nitrate. My confusion stemmed from the fact complete terrestrial fertilizers can have very different NPK values from one brand to another as they target different things (growth, bloom etc). I just got lost in my own confusion!



dw1305 said:


> but my reading would be that the APT mix is designed for substrates (like ADA Amazonia) with a reserve of nitrogen (N) present. Because of this the "ATP complete" it is very light on nitrogen, when compared to its potassium (K+) etc content.
> 
> If you do them as a ratio of N: P : K for "ATP complete" it is: *3.4 : 2.3: 40*
> ((1.5*0.224): (0.7*0.33): 4. I multiplied them by 10 to make them easily comparable).
> 
> Personally I just wouldn't get too bogged down in exact ratios, replicating some-one elses recipe etc. Just choose values and make the solution up, you can tweak it afterwards, if you need to.


Noted. I think I will just stick with Jame's Planted Tank formulas but the issue has never really been choosing a formula but making the calculations specially the ones relating to the micros as most formulas are referring to CSM + B so I have to figure out the weights of every individual element (S, B, Cu, Fe, Mn, Mo, Zn). As I said before CSM + B is not an option as too expensive considering my location and NIC-SPRAY clearly has too much copper. So I am left with using individual trace elements, which I already have anyway. For you clearly all these calculations seems like a breeze but for me the chemical names and their formula, coupled with percentages, mass, ppm etc etc etc makes it a nightmare . I was never good in chemistry.

I was able to figure out the weights of the macros for the APT Complete formula but considering what was said above about the soil I might go for the  *DIY TPN+ (3)* or  *PMDD+PO4* formulas from Jame's Planted Tank. My soil is 7 months old and possibly starting to be exhausted. I am using Black Earth from Cal Aqua Labs. These are the calculations for the APT complete where ppm was provided. For the traces well that's just not possible as no ppm is provided by Dennis Wong. I made the calculation for 2ml in 20 liters of water. For 1ml in 20L of water simply multiply weights by 2. I am just posting this for the posterity. I did nothing but use the Rotalabutterfly and Zorfox's calculators.





And yes I did the calculation with both Rotalabutterfly and Zorfox's. I'm the kind of person who likes to verify numbers and make sure I am not being duped . Joke aside now I need to figure out how to calculate the weight of each trace for the *DIY TPN+ (3)* or  *PMDD+PO4* formulas.


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Hanuman said:


> For example Potassium Nitrate will always be 13-0-46


That is it.





Hanuman said:


> For you clearly all these calculations seems like a breeze but for me the chemical names and their formula, coupled with percentages, mass, ppm etc etc etc makes it a nightmare . I was never good in chemistry.


Yes, just use one of the calculators. 

I can remember the RAM of most of the nutrients, but I had to go and check for zinc (Zn) and copper (Cu) etc. 





Hanuman said:


> Joke aside now I need to figure out how to calculate the weight of each trace for the *DIY TPN+ (3)* or *PMDD+PO4* formulas


 For the micro-elements you will need to use some maths, but it is exactly the same process you used for KNO3 etc.

This is the working for "sodium molybdate dihydrate" (Na2MoO4·2H2O). 

The RMM is 242, you get to 242 by adding together the RAM's of the elements. 

Sodium (Na) has a RAM of 23, we need two of these so
Na = 46
Mo = 96
Oxygen has an RAM of 16, we have O4 + O2 so O = (6*16 = 96) 
O = 96
Hydrogen has RAM of 1, we have 2*2
H = 4

46 + 96 + 96 + 4 = 242

The percentage of molybdenum (Mo) is 96/242 ~ 40% Mo. 

First we need a value to aim for, James says 





> The TNC Trace, Chempak and CSM+B traces come in powder form and have been made into a solution by adding 3g of trace to 250ml of water....and the content of the TNC trace was "0.002%" Mo.


So we need to do a bit of conversion. 

To convert the % nutrient to ppm we need to multiply by 10^4, the reason it is 10^4 is that percentage is "in 100" and 100 is 10^2 . Ppm is "parts per million"  and a million is 10^6. 10^6 - 10^2 = 10^4, so we can move the decimal point four places to the right, and the TNC trace contains 20ppm Mo. 

I don't know what is the recommended dosing for "TNC trace" is, but if you did? You could use the "12 g in one litre (1000 mL)" to find out how much Mo is in one mL of made up solution. 

If I use my "100 litre aquarium" (just makes the maths easier) and aim for 0.02 ppm Mo, I'd need to add 5 mg of Na2MoO4.2H2O as a dry salt. That is going to be fairly difficult, so if I aim to add it as a solution (as part of the all in one). 

I could add 1 g of Na2MoO4.2H2O to 1000 mL of water and dose 5mL for the same result.  

You would then need to work out all the other elements based on a 5mL dose (of your bespoke all in one solution).  That would be part of the reason for making up three separate solutions.

cheers Darrel


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## Penta

dw1305 said:


> You need @Penta to comment, but my reading would be that the APT mix is designed for substrates (like ADA Amazonia) with a reserve of nitrogen (N) present. Because of this the "ATP complete" it is very light on nitrogen, when compared to its potassium (K+) etc content.


Yeah, rich Amazonia type substrat with Nitrogen and high CEC (because of low Fe dosing)


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## Hanuman

dw1305 said:


> For the micro-elements you will need to use some maths


The % is already provided to me on the package of each element.

Iron DTPA (Fe-DTPA 7%)
Iron EDTA (Fe-EDTA 13.5%)
Manganese EDTA (Mn-EDTA 13%)
Boron (B 20.9%)
Zinc Chelate (Zn 14%)
Sodium Molybdate (Mo 39.5%)
Copper Chelate (Cu 14%)



dw1305 said:


> I don't know what is the recommended dosing for "TNC trace" is, but if you did? You could use the "12 g in one litre (1000 mL)" to find out how much Mo is in one mL of made up solution.



I assume it's the same as CSM+B as James states in his PMDD+PO4 formulas:


> 6g  EDTA Chelated Trace Elements Mix (TNC Trace, CSM+B)


TNC is stronger but CSM+B contains Magnesium which is already present with the macro mix so I guess TNC it is.



dw1305 said:


> If I use my "100 litre aquarium" (just makes the maths easier) and aim for 0.02 ppm Mo, I'd need to add 5 mg of Na2MoO4.2H2O as a dry salt. That is going to be fairly difficult, so if I aim to add it as a solution (as part of the all in one).
> 
> I could add 1 g of Na2MoO4.2H2O to 1000 mL of water and dose 5mL for the same result.
> 
> You would then need to work out all the other elements based on a 5mL dose (of your bespoke all in one solution). That would be part of the reason for making up three separate solutions.



I understood the principle and all but one issue remains. I was going to calculate the weight of each element on the rotalabutterfly but I couldn't because some of the elements are not listed, namely, Manganese EDTA (Mn-EDTA 13%), Boron (B 20.9%), Zinc Chelate (Zn 14%), Copper Chelate (Cu 14%). Same with the Zorfox calculator.



dw1305 said:


> Solution 1: Macro-nutrients and magnesium.
> Solution 2: Iron chelates.
> Solution 3: Trace elements.
> 
> For "Solution 2" I'd aim for 0.5 ppm Fe in the tank.



Also for the solution 2 you recommended, what iron should I use? Iron DTPA (Fe-DTPA 7%) or Iron EDTA (Fe-EDTA 13.5%) or both?


----------



## X3NiTH

If you can get unchelated salts for everything (to save on the math cos I hate that too) other than the Iron then my recipe posted in the Reconstituters thread might suit. Super easy to measure out and prepare.



X3NiTH said:


> Here's my Micro recipe and preparation instructions if you are interested.
> 
> 500ml Micro Mix @ 1ml/10L -
> 
> Fe 0.15 ppm
> Mn 0.05 ppm
> Zn 0.04 ppm
> B 0.03 ppm
> Cu 0.002 ppm
> Mo 0.0015 ppm
> Ni 0.0005 ppm
> 
> This mix includes a liquid Fe Gluconate component, 'Grow Microbe-Lift Plants Fe'  (bottle instructions 1ml/100L - 0.1 mg/L and the solution in the bottle is pH 3.05).
> 
> The preparation water is RO/DI.
> 
> I acidified the water beforehand using Ascorbic acid (I had this already and should have used it with the previous 5L preparation noted in my last post) and checked the pH of the solution before adding the salts. At the addition of each salt there was vigorous mixing to achieve near full dissolution (salt crystals disappearing on visual inspection after each shake of the bottle) then the pH probe was put in the resultant mixture and the reading was allowed to stabilise for 5 mins before it was noted down. The following list shows the respective weights of the salts addition and the resultant pH of the mixture, the Mo, Cu and Ni component is derived from individual pre prepared solutions (100ml containers dosing at 10ml/5L for Mo 0.0015, Cu 0.002, Ni 0.0005).
> 
> 500ml Micro dosed @ 1ml/10L, Preparation as follows -
> 
> 450ml RO/DI + 0.25g Ascorbic Acid - pH 3.2
> 
> + 0.77g MnSO4.H2O (Mn 0.05 mg/L) - pH 3.42
> 
> + 0.9g ZnSO4.7H2O (Zn 0.04 mg/L) - pH 3.5
> 
> + 0.86g H3BO3 (B 0.03 mg/L) - pH 3.5
> 
> + 0.019g Na2MoO4.2H2O (Mo 0.0015 mg/L) - pH 3.6
> 
> + 0.04g CuSO4.5H2O (Cu 0.002 mg/L) - pH 3.68
> 
> + 0.0113g NiSO4.6H2O (Ni 0.0005 mg/L) - pH 3.74
> 
> At this point the resulting mixture is clear with zero precipitation. The addition of the Fe increases the opacity of the mixture.
> 
> + 50ml Fe Gluconate (pH 3.05 - Fe 0.1 mg/L) - pH 3.35 (Green tint to the mix)
> 
> + 2.275g FeDTPA 11% (Fe 0.05mg/L) - pH 3.19 (Brown Green tint to the mix)



The recipe is also really easy to tweak for differing values.


----------



## Hanuman

X3NiTH said:


> If you can get unchelated salts for everything (to save on the math cos I hate that too) other than the Iron



Thanks, help appreciated but unfortunately those unchealated traces will not be easily found here without buying loads at the time. All traces that I have are chelated except (if I am not mistaken) for the sodium molyddate (Na2MoO4.2H2O) and the boron (B). Also being in Thailand, buying Grow Microbe-Lift Plants Fe or products that one usually finds easily in Europe or the USA need to be bought through amazone or the like when possible (usually not due to their chemical nature), and shipping usual just makes it not worthwhile.

Grr this is becoming more complicated than I though just to make a simple liquid fertilizer. I'm just stuck at the trace solution and wish someone could just step in to tell me how to do (if possible) with those traces that I already have.


----------



## Hanuman

@X3NiTH I was wrong. I was able to find those chemical rather easily and for cheap. I have not yet bought them since I wanted to ask you some questions.
1 - I am proposed different grades (laboratory, industrial, factory). Which one is appropriate?
2 - Can't find Fe Gluconate component, 'Grow Microbe-Lift Plants Fe'. What should I do? I do have Iron DTPA (Fe-DTPA 7%) and Iron EDTA (Fe-EDTA 13.5%).


----------



## X3NiTH

You want the Lab grade purity, you want as close to 100% purity as you can obtain, you could get away with lower purity but it may contain undesirable amounts of impurity elements like lead, I personally didn't take that chance and went for Lab grades. I would be inclined to stay away from factory grade as that will have the highest amount of impurity.

An alternative to the Microbe-Lift Plants Fe for ease of use if you can obtain it would be Seachem Flourish Iron (not Flourish Comprehensive as that contains low doses of trace elements). If you have trouble sourcing the Seachem Iron then an alternative is to source Ferrous Gluconate itself, it can can come as a powder or as a liquid and you may be able to get this from a Pharmacy, I would go for the powder if you can. You would also need to source Humic Acid (as a dry powder if you can) and mixing in water (RO/DI or distilled water for zero impurities) with the Fe Gluconate should give you a Seachem or Microbe-Lift facsimile.

You don't have to use a Gluconated Iron source, I like to use it because of its low persistence and that it comes mixed with Humic Acid which may provide some natural chelation for the unchelated traces when it all gets mixed up in the bottle. My aim is to have zero EDTA in the tank as it won't play nice with the Fe and let go of it all at the higher KH/pH I run my tank. I boost my Fe Gluconate dose with FeDTPA (11%) instead as it has a little better persistence at higher pH (detectable the day after dosing).

The choice between using DTPA or EDTA for the Iron depends on the pH of the tank, if you are below 6.5 most of the time then EDTA would do but if the pH is any higher then it will start dropping the Iron making it unavailable. I have measured lower than half of my DTPA dose the next day having spent daytime at pH 6.5 and overnight around pH 7.8 (my KH is about 7.8-8).


----------



## Hanuman

Crap. Quotation just came in for all the chems. The lab grades are just insanely expensive. These are the minimum amounts I can buy. Sigh




*Edit*: prices are in US Dollars.


----------



## X3NiTH

What's the currency in use for the price, hopefully it's in Baht although I suspect it's dollars!


----------



## Hanuman

I should have mentioned it indeed but, no those are US dollars else I would not have said it's expensive . I converted the currency as this is an international forum.


----------



## X3NiTH

Wow, OK that's pretty expensive, being half-serious thinking about it another way for some entertainment, it could be an exceptional deal! If you kept half the minimum amount to yourself and sold the rest you would still have more than a lifetime supply, how much money you want to make from it depends if you can get 1,400 250ml lightfast plastic bottles to fill with premixed trace (makes 350L of mix using 250g of Zinc and dosing at 0.01ppm Zn like Flourish Trace), finding somewhere to sell it though may be tricky but make it dirt cheap like 40Baht on top of the wholesale cost for the bottles and the RO/DI water to mix it with, you would still make a good little profit on the investment.


----------



## Hanuman

ahahah yeah seen that way could be worth it but not sure who would by the stuff. There are already a bunch of players on the market here selling fertilizers for planted aquariums. Building trust would take loads of times and I would probably be carrying those 1400 bottle for a pretty long time.
Jokes aside I have to see if I can buy less quantities. Initially I was looking for 100 grams or even less for each element. Maybe buying the CSM + B including shipping might end up being cheaper after all and will last me a life time as well. Sometimes it's just a pain in the ass to live on the other side of the earth. Sometimes it isn't


----------



## Jayefc1

https://aquaplantscare.uk

I dont know if this is any good to you but they seem to have most plant ferts and in much smaller quantities 
Cheers 
Jay


----------



## Hanuman

Thanks but most of what they sell are already chelated traces which in fact I already have. I was looking for unchelated salts.


----------



## Zeus.

Got quite a few of mine direct from Solufeed eg Fe EDDHA price soon adds up all the same, others I used small amounts from e-bay

Molybdenum Ammonium Heptamolybdate Pure (NH4)6Mo7O24 Planted Aquarium Fertilizer


----------



## Hanuman

Zeus. said:


> others I used small amounts from e-bay



Yes that would be my last resort if I can't find locally at a reasonable price. Buying from ebay always carries the risk of the product not being the grade you want and there is no way one can check the quality without a lab to test the product.

If I only had plants and no fish I wouldn't worry too much and probably would buy the technical grade. Buying lower grades may carry the risk of those salts containing undesirable levels of heavy metals, or so I was told.


----------



## Hanuman

Well well I just talked to 5 different producers of liquid fertilizers (2 local and 3 international that are well established) for planted aquarium and they all told me the same in regard to salts grade. They use glasshouse/agricultural/factory grades. No need for lab grade salts as the difference in purity is marginal to the point where it makes no difference in the tank.

Below is the analysis of every traces (technical grade) I asked a quote for. If any knowledgeable person in the area of chemistry has something to say before I go out and buy these traces now it's the time 



 

 

 

 

 

 

 



Thanks for all the help guys.


----------



## alto

Maybe contact Sigma Aldrich Fluka etc about different chemical grades

Edited for clarity


----------



## X3NiTH

All those salts in the pics look fine, at a cursory glance the purity is above 98% which when diluted down for the required level of desired element value then the contaminants will be a very small vanishing number in the parts per trillion range.


----------



## Hanuman

Well expecting (hoping) a positive answer I went out and got the traces. Now I got enough to make liquid fertilizer for 3 generations to come perhaps even 4 or 5 . Still have the potassium sorbate and the ascorbic acide to buy but those I will buy from a different supplier (100 grams) as the supplier where I bought the other traces only sold 1kg minimum and those chemical were somehow expensive for whatever reason.


----------



## Hanuman

X3NiTH said:


> You don't have to use a Gluconated Iron source, I like to use it because of its low persistence and that it comes mixed with Humic Acid which may provide some natural chelation for the unchelated traces when it all gets mixed up in the bottle. My aim is to have zero EDTA in the tank as it won't play nice with the Fe and let go of it all at the higher KH/pH I run my tank. I boost my Fe Gluconate dose with FeDTPA (11%) instead as it has a little better persistence at higher pH (detectable the day after dosing).



If I don't add a Gluconated Iron source what are my options? Presently I have these possible iron sources available:
Iron DTPA (Fe-DTPA 7%)
Iron EDTA (Fe-EDTA 13.5%)

As I was going to follow somewhat Jame's recipe and yours, I also bought C6H8O6 (Ascorbic Acid). Would this be ok to replace the Gluconated Iron and instead increase the dose of either Fe-DTPA 7% or Fe-EDTA 13.5%?




X3NiTH said:


> An alternative to the Microbe-Lift Plants Fe for ease of use if you can obtain it would be Seachem Flourish Iron (not Flourish Comprehensive as that contains low doses of trace elements).



Yes it can be found here but at 15USD the 100ml bottle. Since you are adding 50ml, that's basically 7.5USD just in Seachem Iron for the 500ml total solution. At that price I can already buy myself a 500ml of pre-made Iron trace from one of the liquid fertiliser producers here. The whole point of this DIY stuff is to make it cheaper.




X3NiTH said:


> If you have trouble sourcing the Seachem Iron then an alternative is to source Ferrous Gluconate itself, it can can come as a powder or as a liquid and you may be able to get this from a Pharmacy, I would go for the powder if you can. You would also need to source Humic Acid (as a dry powder if you can) and mixing in water (RO/DI or distilled water for zero impurities) with the Fe Gluconate should give you a Seachem or Microbe-Lift facsimile.



I found this: https://www.lazada.co.th/products/h...o4m.searchlist.list.7.15093045nOXVlQ&search=1
Not much info on the spec of that Humic Acid other than it's 80%. For Ferrous Gluconate strangely I haven't been able to find online locally. I will see if in a pharmacy they sell.




X3NiTH said:


> The choice between using DTPA or EDTA for the Iron depends on the pH of the tank, if you are below 6.5 most of the time then EDTA would do but if the pH is any higher then it will start dropping the Iron making it unavailable. I have measured lower than half of my DTPA dose the next day having spent daytime at pH 6.5 and overnight around pH 7.8 (my KH is about 7.8-8).



I measured my water PH prior Co2 injection and PH was at ~ 7.0 / 7.1. During Co2 injecting PH drops to ~ 6.4 / 6.5. I suppose I would be better off with Fe-DTPA 7%, correct?


----------



## X3NiTH

Yes at that pH DTPA is the better Iron chelate.

I should add that you want Fulvic acid in addition to the Humic acid. I have to admit that I have not reached this part of the process for blending this mixture, I have not yet sourced the base salts myself, the ones I had looked at were made by NPK-Industries, the Humic Acid they supply is sourced from Leonardite (there are sources for this in Thailand, here is an analysis of such deposits), the product I specifically looked at was their Full-Up which was Humates with 10% Humic Acid, the humates in this case will contain a decent proportion of Fulvic Acid, have a look at the MSDS for more detail. The K component in the Humic Acid is because the Humic Acid is only recoverable in Alkali water and they have used Potassium Hydroxide as the moderator. Fulvic Acid is fully soluble in water.

You can DIY the Humates using peat, I'm sure there will be a detailed guide out there to do this but I found some instructions in the preview of a related Technical Journal on JSTOR.


----------



## Hanuman

Man this is becoming more of an alchemist experiment than making a fertiliser. Don't take it wrong, I am laughing about it! Obviously this isn't as simple as many people claim it is and I am starting to understand why many end up just buying the pre made stuff. Lots of headache. In fact this DIY fertilizer stuff is really not for the beginner or those with say only one tank or two. Not worth the pain unless you can source the CSM+b and the macros easily. Perhaps most people can but I find it more interesting to do something that doesn't involve depending on some mixtures with artificial chelating agent.

Since I bought most of the chemicals now perhaps I should pursue the holly grail of a fully non-synthetic chelating agent recipe (although the fact is I already posses all the chelated traces as well, but as you said it would involve a lot of math so I abandoned the idea of using those). Perhaps we can come up with a recipe that does not require any pre-mixed products (like Microbe-Lift Plants Fe, Seachem Flourish Iron, CSM + B or other stuff out there). It would be great to be able to make a fertilizer that is fully composed of non pre-chelated individual ingredients. Perhaps that's not even possible. I guess the most difficult part would be to make a solution that is stable in time.


----------



## Hanuman

Looking around locally I was able to find some suppliers of humic and fulvic acid. The humic acid product contains usually 80% of it and the fulvic acid, 62%. Problem is they don't even provide an analysis of the products so impossible to check what are the remainders.


----------



## X3NiTH

Yeah it does feel a little like Alchemy, a little bit of this and a little bit of that, except it's in the pursuit of turning the elements into healthy plant tissue. I like to think I am helping to counteract the Magic that Bucephalandra use to do a vanishing act when they don't like what's on offer, this from a plant that supposedly thrives on thin gruel (Rainwater over Karst and roots in Interstitial Soils which are mainly composed of dead epiphytes). From what I have seen they appear to prefer their breakfast wrapped in a tasty pastry they can absorb for extra nutrition rather than have them offered it wrapped in a synthetic they can't absorb, and I fear if they do manage to tear up that synthetic wrapper and if it is Ethylene based could be a cause to trigger tissue loss wherever it was dismantled (ethylene in a plant is used as a signalling hormone to trigger cell death). Also I remember reading something somewhere (can't remember where) that one of the problems of using the wrong synthetic chelate for the pH range of the target element is that it could lead to unbound chelate being absorbed into the plant where it then chelates with something the plant wants to store and then robs it of nutrients if it gets transported back out the plant. As a consequence of the pH range I run at I'm keeping away from EDTA traces and only using a small amount of FeDTPA for Iron persistence day to day.

It's quite interesting to compare the size difference between the Humic and Fulvic Acid molecules. Shortcrust pastry or Puff pastry, I assume they both appear quite delicious from a plants perspective.



 

This is quite an interesting article - Humates and Humic Acid. How do they work?

Commenting on the purity of the Humic and Fulvic Acid sources you found it might be worth comparing.

Here's the back label for the RAW brand Humic Acid source I mentioned above.



 

As you can see it's sourced from Leonardite and it is only 59% purity, so your 80% purity grade appears to be a more concentrated product, very likely it is from a locally sourced Leonardite deposit, the question you need to ask is how it was prepared, which hydroxide was used to solvate the Humic Acid, the RAW one above uses Potassium Hydroxide hence the 4% K content, other hydroxides that can be used are Sodium Hydroxide or Ammonium Hydroxide (from what I've read the Ammonium formulation smells pretty bad). I would prefer the Potassium based product simply because it's the preferred transport ion within plants, certainly more beneficial than Sodium. The Ammonium based product would probably have its uses for the nitrogen component and seeing that humates are used as soil conditioners I would not be surprised if prilled ADA type nutrated plant soils are fortified with this, so I reckon it's has a more targeted use wheras a Potassium based Humic Acid can be applied more liberally as a Tonic in an aquatic environment.

The RAW Full Up product doesn't state its Fulvic Acid content but it does state its Humic Acid content at 10%. 



 

It is stated that it is sourced from Peat so the product should contain a high percentage of Fulvic Acid and other Humates (there's a multitude of different ones, Fulvic and Humic are the big two).

The 10% Humic Acid content is either what's left in the purification process or added purposefully as apparently the presence of Humic Acid can be seen to increase the uptake of Fulvic Acid, possibly because as the plant is uptaking the larger molecule it's holding the door wide open in places (like squeezing a square peg into a round hole, or vice versa) and as consequence the smaller molecules of Fulvic Acid can squeeze through the gaps. So the Fulvic source you found at 62% is likely a very similar product (maybe a different source), it will have other soluble Humates and possibly some undisclosed Humic Acid (don't know how rigorous centrifuging needs to be to separate precipitated Humic Acid from liquid containing Fulvic Acid to have a Zero level for Humic Acid). A combination of both is probably more desirable than Fulvic Acid on its own.

I can't be certain but I dont think there is much of a need to worry too much about harmful contaminants as the original source for these products (excepting possibly the type of Hydroxide pH moderator used to solvate the Humic Acid) as Peat and Leonardite are mainly composed of pre-fossilised plant derived organic matter, so if there are any undesirable contaminants present hopefully they will be at an extremely low level.

Certainly all this DIY malarkey is not for the everyone but I think where there is the absence of an easy to find nutrient source pre-made or one that comes with the required level of desired elements, then learning how to be able to tailor universal base ingredients together in a way to be advantageous to plant health has to be worth the effort.


----------



## Hanuman

I was actually writing a post for you and you came with all this info. Needless to say all I was writing now goes to the trash as you answered everything I was asking - lol

I do understand more precisely why you want to use humic and fulvic acids and also why you are using Fe DTPA. It all makes perfect sense.



X3NiTH said:


> As you can see it's sourced from Leonardite and it is only 59% purity, so your 80% purity grade appears to be a more concentrated product, very likely it is from a locally sourced Leonardite deposit, the question you need to ask is how it was prepared, which hydroxide was used to solvate the Humic Acid, the RAW one above uses Potassium Hydroxide hence the 4% K content, other hydroxides that can be used are Sodium Hydroxide or Ammonium Hydroxide (from what I've read the Ammonium formulation smells pretty bad). I would prefer the Potassium based product simply because it's the preferred transport ion within plants, certainly more beneficial than Sodium. The Ammonium based product would probably have its uses for the nitrogen component and seeing that humates are used as soil conditioners I would not be surprised if prilled ADA type nutrated plant soils are fortified with this, so I reckon it's has a more targeted use wheras a Potassium based Humic Acid can be applied more liberally as a Tonic in an aquatic environment.



I will try to find out more about the process but I am afraid I wont get any information from the sellers I contacted because these acids seems to be imported from China (which is my main concern) and so far I haven't been able to find a professional chemical reseller selling those acids locally. Those that I have found don't have a clue about the exact composition of the product they are selling and how it is made. I also found another company selling a <..liquid humic/fulvic acid product..> but it contains traces which is no good specially because the company can't even tell me which traces and in what quantities. He says he imports the concentrate and simply repackages it. I kindly asked him if he could convey my request to the manufacturer but I am no getting my hope high on this.



X3NiTH said:


> Certainly all this DIY malarkey is not for the everyone but I think where there is the absence of an easy to find nutrient source pre-made or one that comes with the required level of desired elements, then learning how to be able to tailor universal base ingredients together in a way to be advantageous to plant health has to be worth the effort.



I totally agree and that's why I am not giving up. If we can come up with a recipe that basically drops as much as possible synthetic chelating agents and where all base ingredients can be sourced individually whitout relying on a premix then that would make this fertilizer the best of all I believe.


----------



## Hanuman

Well well I spoke too fast. I got some answers from one of the seller of humic/fulvic acid.

The 80% humic acid I referred to earlier is actually 70% (and not 80%) made with sodium hydroxide and it solubility seems to depend on wheter it is powder, flakes or crystals. The most soluble is the flake version at 100%.
https://www.knrinter.com/category/12/ฮิวมิค-humic




The one made with potassium hydroxide they have 2 kinds. One is 70% and another is at 55%. Solubility depends as well on the type ranging from 85% to 100% solubility.
https://www.knrinter.com/category/2/ซุปเปอร์-โปรแตสเซียมฮิวเมท
https://www.knrinter.com/category/1/โปรแตสเซียมฮิวเมท-2







They also have this product. It's Humic Fulvate and* i*t's 70% Humic Acide + 15% Fulvic Acid:
https://www.knrinter.com/product/70/ฮิวมิค-ฟูลเวท-ชนิดผง-กระสอบ-25-kg




They do also sell Fulvic Acid separately at 50% purity:
https://www.knrinter.com/product/30/ฟูลวิค-ผง-fulvic-25-kg


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Hanuman said:


> The lab grades are just insanely expensive.


You can use the tech. grade, the lab. grade is for analytical work (like making up standards) and is ultrapure. 

The level of impurities in the  tech grade will still be vanishingly small. The way I think about is in terms of "lorry loads". So using that as an analogy, the lab. (analytical) grade has a grain of sugar in a lorry load of salt, and the tech. grade a sugar cube in a lorry load of salt.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hanuman

The family is nearly complete:


----------



## Hanuman

@X3NiTH So what do you recommend I do regarding the humic/fulvic acids? Also I have been trying to souce the Fe Gluconate locally and for some reason I haven't found a single supplier. None of the companies I purchased the traces from or those that I enquired have Fe Gluconate. Only sources I found are from ebay and one doesn't ship to Thailand. The other one hasn’t answered. Pharmacies do have Fe Gluconate but it's not pure and pills contain some other ingredients so that's no good.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/BulkSupple...hash=item2f335d3c26:m:mrI7ViDpvW2Kt2Ew0lrJC0Q
https://www.ebay.com/itm/FERROUS-Gl...hash=item2ce89732b7:m:mIEoYScXGLSBtudDDc2ncsA

What are my options at this point? Only use FE DTPA 7% while keep searching for the above?

Your advice and guidance would be appreciated.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Hanuman said:


> I also bought C6H8O6 (Ascorbic Acid). Would this be ok to replace the Gluconated Iron and instead increase the dose of either Fe-DTPA 7% or Fe-EDTA 13.5%?





Hanuman said:


> Only use FE DTPA 7%


You only need one iron (Fe) source, FeDTPA is good for all the pH levels you would encounter in the tank.

If you really want to add humic, or fulvic, compounds as well you can just add some <"_Terminalia catappa">_ leaves to the tank.

I like structural leaf litter for all <"sorts of reasons">. 

cheers Darrrel


----------



## Hanuman

Thank you Darell. That clear things up. I guess the intention of @X3NiTH was to reduce as much as possible any synthetic chelating agent. I will try to make a first batch of fertilizer without humic acids and investigate further how to make a solution with said acids. I will do as you said earlier with 3 solutions and only mix them in a 1 month worth all-in-on solution. Should I add ascorbic acide and potassium sorbate to all 3 solutions?


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,





Hanuman said:


> as much as possible any synthetic chelating agent


Before the development of FeEDTA people used citric acid (C6H8O7) as their acidifier/chelator and ferrous sulphate (FeSO4.7H2O) as their iron source for hydroponics. I would guess that works about as well as ferric gluconate, and they are both considerably less effective than FeDTPA etc. 

If you have soft water I suspect that citric acid would do as your iron chelator. 





dw1305 said:


> You can also get iron chelates with added manganese, I've bought <"Chempak sequestered iron"> in Wilkos etc. .


I can see a reason for adding manganese to the chelator, because manganese and iron deficiency both cause similar looking chlorosis in new growth, and EDTA etc. are very effective chelators and will bind the next available ion (dependent upon frequency and valence). 





Hanuman said:


> Should I add ascorbic acide and potassium sorbate to all 3 solutions? I will do as you said earlier with 3 solutions and only mix them in a 1 month worth all-in-on solution


Probably just in the "all-in-one", you only need a very small amount of each. 

They work synergistically, the lower pH from the acid   causes the potassium sorbate to convert to sorbic acid and that is what inhibits micro-organism growth. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hanuman

dw1305 said:


> If you have soft water I suspect that citric acid would do as your iron chelator.


Here is what my tap water looks like in terms of ppm:

In case video is not clear:
mS: 0.3
μS: 317
ppm (0.5): 152
ppm (0.7): 211
I know all above numbers mean the same they are just in a different unit. Just added them all for reader's convenience.

Today I also checked my GH and KH.
7<GH<14 but seems closer to 7 according to the strip.
6<KH<10

It is my understanding test strips are not accurate but that's the only tool I have at my disposal to measure those parameters.








dw1305 said:


> Probably just in the "all-in-one", you only need a very small amount of each.
> 
> They work synergistically, the lower pH from the acid causes the potassium sorbate to convert to sorbic acid and that is what inhibits micro-organism growth.



Noted. Looking at James formula he adds 0.5gr of ascorbic acid to a 500ml solution but @X3NiTH adds half of that 0.25gr. What's best?


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Hanuman said:


> μS: 317





Hanuman said:


> Today I also checked my GH and KH.
> 7<GH<14 but seems closer to 7 according to the strip.
> 6<KH<10
> 
> It is my understanding test strips are not accurate


That looks fine, they aren't accurate, but you only need a ball-park figure and that suggests that most of the conductivity (and dGH/dKH) is from limestone (CaCO3). 





Hanuman said:


> Looking at James formula he adds 0.5gr of ascorbic acid to a 500ml solution but @X3NiTH adds half of that 0.25gr. What's best?


I suspect that it doesn't make much difference. If you want to make sure your solution is acidified you could add 0.5g.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hanuman

You are a living encyclopedia . Thank you so very much for all.

I though I would also share the analysis of the water in Bangkok by the water company (see attached file). My area is the one I highlighted in orange (Thung Mahamaek). This is the water analysis from June 2019 taken from a 2 day sampling. I had to translate the table headings and parameters with Google Translate so if you see some funky wording don't get worked up 

And here is a real time view of Bangkok's water quality:
http://twqonline.mwa.co.th/EN/map.php?type=ph


----------



## Hanuman

Coming back on Jame's DIY TPN+ (3) formula, when I used either Rotalabutterfly or Zorfox calculator I noticed that adding 17g of MgSO4*7H2O adds 0.34ppm Mg and not 0.39 Mg as James states. To reach 0.39ppm I would need to add 19.8g.

Where is this discrepancy coming from and most importantly should I bump the amount to 19.8g or not?


----------



## Jayefc1

To be honest it's that minimal that I dont think it will hurt I just put 5 grams of epson salts in to my tank after every water change so there is less salts in my all in one mix 

Cheers 
Jay


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,





Hanuman said:


> I though I would also share the analysis of the water in Bangkok by the water company


That looks fine, a bit of limestone and not a lot else. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hanuman

dw1305 said:


> Probably just in the "all-in-one", you only need a very small amount of each.



Hello Darrel,

Going with a 3 solution as we talked earlier (macro, traces, fe), would you mind clarifying the function(s) of the Ascorbic Acid?

My understanding is that its purpose is to acidify/chelate the solution so that there is no interactions between the metal ions and therefore extend the shelf life of the solution. I understand that the Macro solution by itself would not require a chelator unless one decides to do an ALL-in-ONE solution.

However wouldn't the trace solution benefit from the Ascorbic Acid to prevent all traces interacting among themselves or is it only required if one includes Fe in the trace solution? Reason I ask is because I read this:



X3NiTH said:


> the story goes.... I made 5L of micro without pre acidifying the water and the zinc addition turned it into a pulped paper consistency, acidifying afterwards then oxidised it and it dropped out of solution.



X3NiTH was only preparing a trace solution so I am wondering why you are suggesting to only adding Ascorbic Acid to the ALL-in-ONE solution but not to the trace solution. Is it because in my context the Fe solution is separate?

Thank you.


----------



## Zeus.

Absorbic acid 1.0g/l and potassium sorbate 0.4g/l helps prevent mold esp when using an auto dosing pump. Works a treat for me.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Hanuman said:


> However wouldn't the trace solution benefit from the Ascorbic Acid to prevent all traces interacting among themselves or is it only required if one includes Fe in the trace solution?


You can add ascorbic acid to the trace solution, it won't do any harm. 





Hanuman said:


> Reason I ask is because I read this:





> X3NiTH said: ....the story goes.... I made 5L of micro without pre acidifying the water and the zinc addition turned it into a pulped paper consistency, acidifying afterwards then oxidised it and it dropped out of solution.





Hanuman said:


> @X3NiTH was only preparing a trace solution so I am wondering why you are suggesting to only adding Ascorbic Acid to the ALL-in-ONE solution but not to the trace solution. Is it because in my context the Fe solution is separate?


In @X3NiTH's case the simple answer is that zinc (Zn) has reacted with one of the anions in solution to form an insoluble compound. The chemistry is probably a lot more complicated than that, mainly because most zinc compounds are soluble.

Whether you need to acidify the trace element solution would depend the composition of the micro-element solution. I always used boric acid (B(OH3)) as my boron source, and never had any problems, so that may have kept the micro-element solution acidic.





Hanuman said:


> Is it because in my context the Fe solution is separate?


The iron is likely to form insoluble compounds, but this would happen fairly slowly as the iron chelate photo-degraded.  

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hanuman

dw1305 said:


> (B(OH3))


Is this the same as H3BO3? If so that's what I am using as my Boron source.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Hanuman said:


> Is this the same as H3BO3? If so that's what I am using as my Boron source.


Yes, same compound, boric acid.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hanuman

So I prepared a simple worksheet to allow to calculate weights of each compound depending on the volume chosen. This is nothing fancy and in fact it is fixed as it only works with one formula and one dosage type (1ml for 10Litre). It's merely meant for me to quickly evaluate compound weights without having to calculate things manually each time.

I though I would share this with the community. Special thanks to @dw1305 and @X3NiTH for their patience and support.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14xHCdQ5NfkgWHl0aQutivsh5Z-Ix023e-1ewIfB2Ytg/edit?usp=sharing


----------



## Zeus.

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, Yes, same compound, boric acid.
> 
> cheers Darrel



I was after some then I noticed a already had some on the side for killing ants and other insects


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Zeus. said:


> I noticed a already had some on the side for killing ants and other insects


I always wondered what "borax" and "roaches" were, when I watched The Mary Tyler Moore show etc back in the 1970's. 

It was like references to Baseball, the laughter track implied it was funny, but I had no idea of why or what. Later I found out "sodium tetraborate decahydrate" and "cockroaches" were the answer, and why they went together.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hanuman

Hello all,

I finally prepared my solutions. Took me close to 2 hours to weight everything and to make sure I was not loosing any of it when transferring to the bottles . I did 3 solutions as advised by @dw1305. 1 litre each.

Solution 1: Macros
Solution 2: Traces
Solution 3: Iron

I only added Ascorbic Acid and Potassium Sorbate to the trace solution. In the future I might only do 2 solutions (macros and traces+iron) just to simplify things.





Before starting and for reference I weighed the equivalent weight of Nikel Sulfate (23mg) in sugar. This was to provide some visual reference of how little the quantities can be. My scale is a 500gr precision scale (0.001g) and can reliably weigh a minimum of 20mg yet I didn't feel confortable doing it this way due to the error specifications of the scale (Repeatability Error ±0.005 g / Non-linear Error ±0.005 g) so I did a serial dilution instead.




Formula I used:


----------



## jaypeecee

X3NiTH said:


> If you have trouble sourcing the Seachem Iron then an alternative is to source Ferrous Gluconate itself, it can can come as a powder or as a liquid and you may be able to get this from a Pharmacy, I would go for the powder if you can. You would also need to source Humic Acid (as a dry powder if you can) and mixing in water (RO/DI or distilled water for zero impurities) with the Fe Gluconate should give you a Seachem or Microbe-Lift facsimile.
> 
> You don't have to use a Gluconated Iron source, I like to use it because of its low persistence and that it comes mixed with Humic Acid which may provide some natural chelation for the unchelated traces when it all gets mixed up in the bottle. My aim is to have zero EDTA in the tank as it won't play nice with the Fe and let go of it all at the higher KH/pH I run my tank. I boost my Fe Gluconate dose with FeDTPA (11%) instead as it has a little better persistence at higher pH (detectable the day after dosing).



Hi X3NiTH,

I'm pleased to have discovered your post about ferrous gluconate. I started a thread recently about the possibility of ferrous gluconate causing a surface film. See the following:

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/does-ferrous-gluconate-cause-a-water-surface-film.58550/

I guess you don't get the surface film. If not, then ferrous gluconate is probably not the culprit in my case. If water parameters have any bearing on this, my tank has pH 6.6 (from CO2 injection), KH5.5dH and GH10dH.

JPC


----------



## X3NiTH

Hi there, 

Surface film is not something I have noticed specifically with use of Flourish Comp or other Fe Gluconated traces just added to pure water but it's addition to water in an aquarium could produce an effect because of something else in the tank it is binding with and becoming visible, Humic acids in the mix becoming bound with other large molecules in the water like proteins and oils (from fish food or breakdown of plant material) and becoming an even larger molecule and if its buoyant it becomes visible as a film on the water surface when it clumps together. Increasing surface flow would help to churn that up to make more of the molecules clump together (floculate) become heavier and sink deeper into the water column and hopefully end up in the filter. If I ever have surface film I increase surface agitation, If I need to inject more CO₂ to compensate for increased off gassing then I do, I'd rather the CO₂ not be hindered from leaving the tank or O₂ prevented from entering it because of surface contamination. Hope that helps.


----------



## X3NiTH

@Hanuman 

Regarding the Humic Acid supplements I would probably go for the most soluble one prepared from the potassium source. The Fulvic acid supply looks fine for use on its own or ratio blended with the Humic Acid.

I looked into what to do when you can't find a Fe Gluconate source and the solution (pardon the pun) I came up with is try make it yourself.

The Synthesis and Characterisation of Iron(II)Gluconate 

Doing it the above way you need a source for Sodium Gluconate and Iron Sulphate plus also the Ion selective resin to remove the Sodium and the Sulphate, the precursor chemicals should be easy to source (easier than FeGluconate hopefully) the resins maybe not so much, a little bit impractical, however since it's just a thermal reaction (boiling) to form the FeGluconate then I had a thought that if you swap out the Sodium Gluconate for Calcium Gluconate and Iron (II) Sulphate then you could forgo the ion exchange resins and filter out the Calcium Sulphate through coffee filter paper. I haven't done this reaction specifically but Calcium Whatever added to Something Sulphate in solution for me has typically ended up as Something Whatever and Calcium Sulphate. Having Calcium Sulphate as a precipitating sedimenting waste byproduct sounds way better (and a whole lot cheaper) than mucking around with ion selective removal resins.

I'm not using Potassium Sorbate for mould inhibition because I'm only putting about a two week supply of traces in the doser container and keeping the rest cool in the refrigerator. The stored traces in the refrigerator are mould and reaction free, ambient room temp is above 20c most of the time so a larger amount of traces sitting for longer in the doser container does produce mould. The Ascorbic I add is for pH stability below neutral to prevent precursors reacting with each other rather than going into solution as a sea of ions.

As a general note to my dosing levels, I'm using RO/DI @ 0TDS before all remineralisation (water change water) my dosing strategy for everything (GH, KH Macro and Micro) doesn't take into account what would be in the water if I were just to use straight tap for water changes. If I were to change to water changes with tap then I would adjust my dosing strategies to compensate for the average of what is measured in the water via a water board report, this would include slight adjustments to the levels of the micro elements with the least reactivity and greatest persistence between water changes, I wouldn't dial down my iron dose since that's the least persistent and find I need to dose that daily regardless to have it present day to day.


----------



## jaypeecee

X3NiTH said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Surface film is not something I have noticed specifically with use of Flourish Comp or other Fe Gluconated traces just added to pure water but it's addition to water in an aquarium could produce an effect because of something else in the tank it is binding with and becoming visible, Humic acids in the mix becoming bound with other large molecules in the water like proteins and oils (from fish food or breakdown of plant material) and becoming an even larger molecule and if its buoyant it becomes visible as a film on the water surface when it clumps together. Increasing surface flow would help to churn that up to make more of the molecules clump together (floculate) become heavier and sink deeper into the water column and hopefully end up in the filter. If I ever have surface film I increase surface agitation, If I need to inject more CO₂ to compensate for increased off gassing then I do, I'd rather the CO₂ not be hindered from leaving the tank or O₂ prevented from entering it because of surface contamination. Hope that helps.



Hi X3NiTH,

Thanks for the feedback.

As you say, perhaps the ferrous gluconate is binding with something else in my tank water. It's interesting that, yesterday, I added a dose of _TNC Complete_ to the tank. It appears to have had the effect of starting to break up the surface film in conjunction with increased surface agitation. But it's going to take longer before the film is completely gone.

JPC


----------



## Hanuman

Just wanted to report after a little over a month of using these ferts. So far so good. I haven't seen any algae problems, deficiencies, or new problems appear.
I found an otocinclus dead 2 weeks ago and I think maybe 3 or 4 have died in the course of the last few months. I never found the bodies but I can't count them all. Also 4 amanos have committed suicide in the last 3 weeks by jumping out. I fed their dead bodies to my outdoor pond fish so nothing goes to waste. These amano where actually introduced to my tank a few weeks back from another smaller tank. I just think it's because of the increased population of amano in my tank that they jumped out due to racing between male and females. so I don't think the new fertilizing regime is not to blame so I will keep going on.


----------



## Hanuman

I decided to do an all-in-one solution (only 500ml) just to test using the same formulation. However a day after I noticed that the mixture had become cloudy. I didn’t see any precipitation at the bottom of the bottle. I did acidify the water prior adding all elements so I am not sure what’s going on.

Ideas?


----------



## Zeus.

I added Excel Fe once and got a cloudy precipitate when my ADA AS had lost its buffering capacity- well that's what I put it down too with my hard water


----------



## Hanuman

Zeus. said:


> I added Excel Fe once and got a cloudy precipitate when my ADA AS had lost its buffering capacity- well that's what I put it down too with my hard water



Flourish iron is gluconate based. I didn’t add any iron gluconate to my solution. By cloudy I meant the fertilizer inside the bottle became cloudy not when adding the fertilizer to the tank.


----------



## Zeus.

Humm.... My answer was a bit vague reading it back  it was meant as a comparison when I posted.
When you say it went cloudy I take it you mean milky white colour?
Never made an all in one as I do just tluse the same micro and macro solutions on low tech tanks as my high tech ones- macros on Sunday and micros on Wednesday.
Did you RO/distilled water for your stock solution or just tap or boiled tap water?


----------



## Hanuman

Zeus. said:


> Humm.... My answer was a bit vague reading it back  it was meant as a comparison when I posted.
> When you say it went cloudy I take it you mean milky white colour?
> Did you RO/distilled water for your stock solution or just tap or boiled tap water?



Yes cloudy as if milky. Yes I used RO water.


----------



## Hanuman

I checked again and now it does look lile something droped out of solution. Grrr. Is this usable or should I get rid of it?

@dw1305 Recommendations?


----------



## Zeus.

I would do another mix, double checking I had got the correct weight for each salt, easy to get mixed up I have been there mixing up my stock trace and macro mixes


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Hanuman said:


> I checked again and now it does look lile something droped out of solution. Grrr. Is this usable or should I get rid of it?  @dw1305 Recommendations?


You could try adding acidifying the solution, or gently warming it, if the milkiness doesn't go back into solution then you will need to make up a new batch. 

The problem is that you aren't going to know which ions have combined to form the precipitate. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hanuman

Zeus. said:


> I would do another mix, double checking I had got the correct weight for each salt, easy to get mixed up I have been there mixing up my stock trace and macro mixes


Yes maybe I should.

I am pretty sure I didn't mix up stuff. I triple checked the weights and names for each elements. I have the formula printed and I tick each element when done with each. When I am done with one salt I put that salt back in a plastic storage box far away from where I am making my mixes. I shake the solution after adding each salt so that the solution is homogeneous. Not saying mistakes are not possible but in this case I don't feel it's the case. Maybe my protocol is wrong? Here is how I did it:
1 - add RO water to container
2 - add ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate to water. Shook.
3 - checked PH. It was at 4.5.
4 - add macros to water. Shook after each salt was added.
5 - add traces to water. Shook after each trace was added.
6 - checked PH. It was at 4.7.

The solution looked fine the first day. It was clear. Didn't noticed anything strange.



dw1305 said:


> Hi all, You could try adding acidifying the solution, or gently warming it, if the milkiness doesn't go back into solution then you will need to make up a new batch.
> 
> The problem is that you aren't going to know which ions have combined to form the precipitate.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Ok will try that. Adding extra ascorbic acid?

I am wondering if the acidity of 4.5 was enough to start with. I will check the PH again later today see if it rose.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,





Hanuman said:


> 4 - add macros to water. Shook after each salt was added.
> 5 - add traces to water. Shook after each trace was added.


 Can you keep the macro and micro mixes separate?

I think you are much more likely to have problems with an "all-in-one" mix, because you have the potential for  a lot of phosphate etc. compounds, <"which are insoluble">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hanuman

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, Can you keep the macro and micro mixes separate?
> 
> I think you are much more likely to have problems with an "all-in-one" mix, because you have the potential for  a lot of phosphate compounds which are insoluble.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Yes I can do that and in fact that is what I did for my previous mix. I just wanted to test the all-in-one because a friend wanted me to make an all-in-one for him.


----------



## Zeus.

Well you take more care than me making your stock solutions 

I normally stick container and funnel and scales tare scale add each salt approx rating between than dump the water in, lid on good shake which leaves a clumpy mass of salts leave overnight shake and good to go 

The other possible answer is the water could be saturated OFC. Add another 500ml of water if the cloudy appearance goes just add double the dose  ( or remove 250ml then 250ml RO and double the dose OFC)


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Zeus. said:


> The other possible answer is the water could be saturated OFC. Add another 500ml of water if the cloudy appearance goes just add double the dose


That is a good suggestion and another option.  

There is mention of this is in <"Calling all chemists">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Edvet

( probably unrelated: i add my salts 3x weekly:  i add 3 tsp KNO3,1 tsp KH2PO4 and 1 tsp MgSO4 in a liter hot tap water and dissolve it, the liquid was always clear, i've upped my MgSO4 to 3 tsp and now the liquid is milky always)


----------



## Hanuman

I tried all 3 options. Warming it up, diluting with double the water and adding extra acid. The solution is clearer yet remains cloudy, but that's probably due to the increased water amount. I guess that batch is not good. Not sure what is wrong though. I don't believe the formula I am using is overly saturated. Is it?

Below a video of how the solution was prior trying the above.


----------



## Hanuman

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, Can you keep the macro and micro mixes separate?



Would a solutions of iron + traces be stable or is it better to also separate the iron from the traces?


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Hanuman said:


> Warming it up, diluting with double the water and adding extra acid..........I guess that batch is not good. Not sure what is wrong though. I don't believe the formula I am using is overly saturated. Is it?


The problem is probably that the insoluble compound(s) that have formed are insoluble in weak acids, as well as water. Iron (Ferric) phosphate (FePO4) would be my guess, it would be soluble in a strong acid (if you had HCl or similar to hand).

Zinc phosphate (Zn3(PO4)2)(H2O)4) would also be insoluble, but you have too much precipitate for that. 





Hanuman said:


> Would a solutions of iron + traces be stable or is it better to also separate the iron from the traces?


I used to keep the iron separate (so I had three solutions, "macro", "micro" and "FeEDTA"), but if you keep it the micro-solution acidified you should be all right.

The main aim is to keep iron solution acidified and away from the  orthophosphate (PO4---) & carbonate (HCO3-) ions. The low pH means that the formation of iron hydroxides and carbonates isn't a problem.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hanuman

Ok thank you Darell. Will have a go with a 2 solutions macro and micros+iron. It's not really for me but for a friend that wants to keep it as simple as possible. I am still using the 3 solutions as you advised some time ago for myself and so far so good.


----------



## X3NiTH

In the video you posted you can see that it looks like paper pulp mixed in with the solution as a suspension, this is Zinc Hydroxide formation. The reason for this reaction is that the starting solution wasn't low enough on the pH scale, pH4.5 is too high, bring it down to pH2-2.5 and the Zinc Hydroxide shouldn't precipitate out and the solution will remain clear. If making an all in one I would make sure the solution is still quite acidic for if and when phosphate gets added at the end.

When I was formulating my traces I used two clear solution commercial mixes as a comparative, the first was Flourish Trace which had a pH of 2.7 and the second was Sera Flore DayDrops which had a pH of 2.15. When it came to the addition of Ferrous Gluconate, the commercial mix I was using had a pH of 3 in the bottle (Microbe-Lift Plants Fe), the powdered 11% FeDTPA I was adding also was tested for pH (made a solution in a separate bottle for pH testing) a mixture at a concentration for dosing at 0.5ml/10L for 0.25mg/L came out at a pH of 2.6 (water used was RO/DI 0TDS).

As a comparative Flourish Comprehensive has a pH of 4.3 in the bottle, I assume the reason for the higher pH is likely due to the humic acid content in the bottle, the Humic Acid based BioCo2 supplement I use has a bottle pH of 8.5, it's addition to a test amount of DIY trace with a pH of 2-2.5 climbs up to about pH4.5 afterwards when added at the correct dosing amounts, this is fairly inline with Flourish Comprehensive. The blackness and opacity of the resultant mixture makes it very hard to detect any precipitation if it has formed (same look and consistency of Flourish Comprehensive), when the bottle gets to the dregs at the end I can detect a slight creaminess to the liquid so there is some precipitation going on but it's very minimal (very consistent with Flourish Comp which does the same thing).

Make small batches to test the reactivity of the resultant solution, when you find a stable mix then you can scale up, I went for broke at the first shot and made 5L of trace that the zinc dropped out of, reacidifying just oxidised the Zinc Hydroxide in the solution making it completely unavailable (went from white paper pulp precipitate to a black dust).


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





X3NiTH said:


> In the video you posted you can see that it looks like paper pulp mixed in with the solution as a suspension, this is Zinc Hydroxide formation. The reason for this reaction is that the starting solution wasn't low enough on the pH scale, pH4.5 is too high, bring it down to pH2-2.5 and the Zinc Hydroxide shouldn't precipitate out and the solution will remain clear......





X3NiTH said:


> ......Make small batches to test the reactivity of the resultant solution, when you find a stable mix then you can scale up, I went for broke at the first shot and made 5L of trace that the zinc dropped out of, reacidifying just oxidised the Zinc Hydroxide in the solution making it completely unavailable (went from white paper pulp precipitate to a black dust).


Brilliant, that is a great post and I've learnt something new.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hanuman

X3NiTH said:


> In the video you posted you can see that it looks like paper pulp mixed in with the solution as a suspension, this is Zinc Hydroxide formation. The reason for this reaction is that the starting solution wasn't low enough on the pH scale, pH4.5 is too high, bring it down to pH2-2.5 and the Zinc Hydroxide shouldn't precipitate out and the solution will remain clear. If making an all in one I would make sure the solution is still quite acidic for if and when phosphate gets added at the end.



Thank you for that very insightful comment. I did read your adventure where you experienced the same issue and thought it wouldn’t happen to me. If I remember well you made the PH go down somewhere around 3 right?

Yes the suspension is an extremely fine powder. If you mix it takes several hours to settle back and drop to the bottom.

I think that my PH meter was off scale because I recalibrated the meter yesterday and tested the solution again prior trying all options and it was at PH3.5 so I think that initially the solution might have been around that. PH3.5 is still not low enough?

I will try again by making the solution more acidic. I suppose it’s just a mater of adding more ascorbic acid until reaching PH2-2.5 right?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Zeus.

X3NiTH said:


> In the video you posted you can see that it looks like paper pulp mixed in with the solution as a suspension, this is Zinc Hydroxide formation. The reason for this reaction is that the starting solution wasn't low enough on the pH scale, pH4.5 is too high, bring it down to pH2-2.5 and the Zinc Hydroxide shouldn't precipitate out and the solution will remain clear. If making an all in one I would make sure the solution is still quite acidic for if and when phosphate gets added at the end.
> 
> When I was formulating my traces I used two clear solution commercial mixes as a comparative, the first was Flourish Trace which had a pH of 2.7 and the second was Sera Flore DayDrops which had a pH of 2.15. When it came to the addition of Ferrous Gluconate, the commercial mix I was using had a pH of 3 in the bottle (Microbe-Lift Plants Fe), the powdered 11% FeDTPA I was adding also was tested for pH (made a solution in a separate bottle for pH testing) a mixture at a concentration for dosing at 0.5ml/10L for 0.25mg/L came out at a pH of 2.6 (water used was RO/DI 0TDS).
> 
> As a comparative Flourish Comprehensive has a pH of 4.3 in the bottle, I assume the reason for the higher pH is likely due to the humic acid content in the bottle, the Humic Acid based BioCo2 supplement I use has a bottle pH of 8.5, it's addition to a test amount of DIY trace with a pH of 2-2.5 climbs up to about pH4.5 afterwards when added at the correct dosing amounts, this is fairly inline with Flourish Comprehensive. The blackness and opacity of the resultant mixture makes it very hard to detect any precipitation if it has formed (same look and consistency of Flourish Comprehensive), when the bottle gets to the dregs at the end I can detect a slight creaminess to the liquid so there is some precipitation going on but it's very minimal (very consistent with Flourish Comp which does the same thing).
> 
> Make small batches to test the reactivity of the resultant solution, when you find a stable mix then you can scale up, I went for broke at the first shot and made 5L of trace that the zinc dropped out of, reacidifying just oxidised the Zinc Hydroxide in the solution making it completely unavailable (went from white paper pulp precipitate to a black dust).



Think I might need to take more note when making my ferts, brush up on the chemistry and work on my potion skills. As the dump it all in a bottle and add RO may be leaving some elements unavailable to the plants. As X3NiTH aka 'The half blood Prince' does have his potions work out to some detail


----------



## X3NiTH

Hanuman said:


> If I remember well you made the PH go down somewhere around 3 right?



Yes, for 0.5g Ascorbic Acid in 900ml of RO/DI I was able to obtain a stable reading of pH3.2.

According to PubChem Ascorbic Acid has a pH of 3 at 5g/L, to bring it down to a pH of 2 you need to add 50g/L, for pH2.5 you'd need around 25g/L. Before I had dug into the pH characteristics of Ascorbic Acid I tried this experiment myself trying to shift the pH lower than 3 using Ascorbic Acid, I was tipping teeny little spoonfuls beyond the initial dose and not seeing much of a pH shift until it dawned on me that pH is a log10 function and I would need approximately a 10x weight increase to shift one point in pH, so I stopped addition deciding I'd rather save the Acid than waste it.

The commercial preparations that I mentioned that have a pH around 2 and will probably be using either Hydrochloric Acid or Sulphuric Acid to regulate the pH because they are more aggressive at lowering the pH, it's also probably a whole lot cheaper than Ascorbic Acid because you would need to use less product to shift the pH to a greater degree. A commercial product would need to guarantee a decent shelf life with zero precipitation in the bottle, hence the low pH I measured for them.

Whenever I mix up a batch of BuceJuce™ I always follow the same order of addition of elements (never all together and never before acidifying the receiving water). The order I decided on was the first salt added to the acidified RO/DI was going to be the element I wanted at the highest mg/L concentration in the resultant solution excepting the iron as I always add the iron at the end as it changes clarity and makes it harder to detect precipitation (if any) in the minor elements. I added and observed for dissolution and any resultant reaction. The order turned out to be MnSO₄ - ZnSO₄.7H₂O - H₂BO₃ - Na₂MoO₄.2H₂O - CuSO₄.5H₂O - NiSO₄.6H₂O - FeGluconate - FeDTPA 11%. There were no issues after mixing. The longevity storing at an average ambient temperature of 20c in a light fast 500ml dosing bottle (a few months supply) the solution remained problem free for at least 30days before it started to grow mould on the surface, when it got to below the last third of the bottle after a couple of months the solution was going slightly milky so I made a new batch, I followed the same order as above but this time stored the resultant solution in the refrigerator and used a smaller dosing bottle holding only a 20day supply to keep everything as fresh and reaction free as possible. The solution stored in the refrigerator is as good as the day I made it, crystal clear with a ferrous hue, this tells me that the mixture out of the fridge above 20c is possibly temperature sensitive over time (increased biological reactions?).



Hanuman said:


> I will try again by making the solution more acidic. I suppose it’s just a mater of adding more ascorbic acid until reaching PH2-2.5 right?



Yes, although how much Ascorbic is too much I never tested out beyond doubling the dose and seeing no difference in reaction over the initial dose into RO/DI. If I were wanting longer shelf life and zero chance of precipitation I'd be using either of the acids I mentioned above, which one would depend on whether I wanted an extra Chloride content or a Sulphur one in the resultant mixture, either or both, I doubt it would make a huge difference to these levels, certainly not compared to the soup of extra elements acidifying down to pH2 with 50g/L of Ascorbic Acid would give you, I haven't tested so I don't know if that extra amount of Ascorbic would be fine when dosed to the tank.

I would add as much Ascorbic until the pH stopped shifting significantly (not far beyond pH3) and if possible use cooled water to make the mix and then refrigerate when done, you would need to test the solutions longevity at ambient temperature before precipitation/Mold issues are seen to give you an idea how long it will last out of he fridge in a dosing container. I haven't tested longevity in a completely sealed bottle that doesn't have access to ambient air like a dosing bottle would, but I have thought of packaging the ferts up in a sealed bag and dose like a saline drip would be relying on external air pressure to empty the bag, this would also keep it sterile and reduce the chance for microbes to grow in the solution.

@Zeus.  Yes certainly I found this recipe to be a better targeted and less disfiguring PolyJuice Potion. Special note to commercial replicators 'Aguamenti Geminio!'


----------



## Hanuman

I will will try with HCI. Easy to find and cheap. 25g/L of ascorbic acid might not be the best way to go indeed.
For mold prevention perhaps still adding potassium sorbate would still be ok right?
Also would HCI be a problem when doing an all-in-one solution or it’s just the same as ascorbic acid?


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----------



## X3NiTH

Yes adding the KSorb should help with Mold prevention, I have it but don't bother to add it as I have still seen Mold formation when it's present in the mix, this was with a mix that sat for quite few months at ambient in a dosing bottle in non sterile conditions. I find the refrigerator does fine for storage between refills of the doser.

Can't really think of any problem using HCl in an all-in-one, it's just going to disassociate into free ions of H and Cl when it hits the water and drop the pH of the solution. It might be worth having a look to see how much you need to use to drop the pH to a requisite number and then calculate how much Cl it adds to the mix if only out of curiosity.


----------



## Hanuman

X3NiTH said:


> Yes adding the KSorb should help with Mold prevention, I have it but don't bother to add it as I have still seen Mold formation when it's present in the mix, this was with a mix that sat for quite few months at ambient in a dosing bottle in non sterile conditions. I find the refrigerator does fine for storage between refills of the doser.
> 
> Can't really think of any problem using HCl in an all-in-one, it's just going to disassociate into free ions of H and Cl when it hits the water and drop the pH of the solution. It might be worth having a look to see how much you need to use to drop the pH to a requisite number and then calculate how much Cl it adds to the mix if only out of curiosity.



For testing purposes I will try doing a drop by drop addition in 100ml of water on a precision scale and testing PH at each drop. Then we can easily extrapolate for 500ml or 1L. I suppose that should do it?


----------



## Zeus.

X3NiTH said:


> Yes, for 0.5g Ascorbic Acid in 900ml of RO/DI I was able to obtain a stable reading of pH3.2.
> 
> According to PubChem Ascorbic Acid has a pH of 3 at 5g/L, to bring it down to a pH of 2 you need to add 50g/L, for pH2.5 you'd need around 25g/L. Before I had dug into the pH characteristics of Ascorbic Acid I tried this experiment myself trying to shift the pH lower than 3 using Ascorbic Acid, I was tipping teeny little spoonfuls beyond the initial dose and not seeing much of a pH shift until it dawned on me that pH is a log10 function and I would need approximately a 10x weight increase to shift one point in pH, so I stopped addition deciding I'd rather save the Acid than waste it.
> 
> The commercial preparations that I mentioned that have a pH around 2 and will probably be using either Hydrochloric Acid or Sulphuric Acid to regulate the pH because they are more aggressive at lowering the pH, it's also probably a whole lot cheaper than Ascorbic Acid because you would need to use less product to shift the pH to a greater degree. A commercial product would need to guarantee a decent shelf life with zero precipitation in the bottle, hence the low pH I measured for them.
> 
> Whenever I mix up a batch of BuceJuce™ I always follow the same order of addition of elements (never all together and never before acidifying the receiving water). The order I decided on was the first salt added to the acidified RO/DI was going to be the element I wanted at the highest mg/L concentration in the resultant solution excepting the iron as I always add the iron at the end as it changes clarity and makes it harder to detect precipitation (if any) in the minor elements. I added and observed for dissolution and any resultant reaction. The order turned out to be MnSO₄ - ZnSO₄.7H₂O - H₂BO₃ - Na₂MoO₄.2H₂O - CuSO₄.5H₂O - NiSO₄.6H₂O - FeGluconate - FeDTPA 11%. There were no issues after mixing. The longevity storing at an average ambient temperature of 20c in a light fast 500ml dosing bottle (a few months supply) the solution remained problem free for at least 30days before it started to grow mould on the surface, when it got to below the last third of the bottle after a couple of months the solution was going slightly milky so I made a new batch, I followed the same order as above but this time stored the resultant solution in the refrigerator and used a smaller dosing bottle holding only a 20day supply to keep everything as fresh and reaction free as possible. The solution stored in the refrigerator is as good as the day I made it, crystal clear with a ferrous hue, this tells me that the mixture out of the fridge above 20c is possibly temperature sensitive over time (increased biological reactions?).
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, although how much Ascorbic is too much I never tested out beyond doubling the dose and seeing no difference in reaction over the initial dose into RO/DI. If I were wanting longer shelf life and zero chance of precipitation I'd be using either of the acids I mentioned above, which one would depend on whether I wanted an extra Chloride content or a Sulphur one in the resultant mixture, either or both, I doubt it would make a huge difference to these levels, certainly not compared to the soup of extra elements acidifying down to pH2 with 50g/L of Ascorbic Acid would give you, I haven't tested so I don't know if that extra amount of Ascorbic would be fine when dosed to the tank.
> 
> I would add as much Ascorbic until the pH stopped shifting significantly (not far beyond pH3) and if possible use cooled water to make the mix and then refrigerate when done, you would need to test the solutions longevity at ambient temperature before precipitation/Mold issues are seen to give you an idea how long it will last out of he fridge in a dosing container. I haven't tested longevity in a completely sealed bottle that doesn't have access to ambient air like a dosing bottle would, but I have thought of packaging the ferts up in a sealed bag and dose like a saline drip would be relying on external air pressure to empty the bag, this would also keep it sterile and reduce the chance for microbes to grow in the solution.
> 
> @Zeus.  Yes certainly I found this recipe to be a better targeted and less disfiguring PolyJuice Potion. Special note to commercial replicators 'Aguamenti Geminio!'



 and thank you for sharing the details .
I have to admit that my ferts do go a bit cloudy near the end.
Do like the idea of keeping the fert in the fridge, no room in fridge but do have space in freezer in garage, think that should do the trick as well !


----------



## Hanuman

X3NiTH said:


> I'd be using either of the acids I mentioned above, which one would depend on whether I wanted an extra Chloride content or a Sulphur one in the resultant mixture, either or both, I doubt it would make a huge difference to these levels,



All my research so far has lead me to find information about what acids are mostly used in fertilizers. It seems that Sulfuric acid, Phosphoric acid, Nitric Acid or Citric acid are the ones that come up the most.

Looking into Hydrochloric acid it doesn't seem to be used that much or perhaps my research is flawed. Perhaps the Chlorine content of it?

In any case is there a calculator out there what would allow me to calculate the ppm values that each of these acids add to the solution? Rotalla or Zorfox don't include these acids.



X3NiTH said:


> and then calculate how much Cl it adds to the mix if only out of curiosity.



How would I calculate the CI content?


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


Hanuman said:


> It seems that Sulfuric acid, Phosphoric acid, Nitric Acid or Citric acid are the ones that come up the most.


It is "bang for buck" really, sulphuric (H2S), nitric and hydrochloric acids are strong acids and you only need a very small amount of acid to reduce pH.

Citric acid (C6H8O7) is a lot safer (it is weak acid) and may promote plant growth. It is also a weak chelator of iron etc.

Nitric acid (HNO3), or phosphoric acid (H3PO4), are usually the preferred option in commercial hydroponics etc., because they supply some macro-nutrients. You are going to be injecting really small volumes of acid, and monitoring the pH very carefully.


Hanuman said:


> Looking into Hydrochloric acid it doesn't seem to be used that much or perhaps my research is flawed. Perhaps the Chlorine content of it?


In older literature it is refrred to as "muriatic acid". It isn't ideal because it is a strong acid, so it disassociates fully, and pretty much instantly, into H+ and Cl- ions. You have to *very careful with it, *it is extremely corrosive.


Hanuman said:


> How would I calculate the CI content?


Same as any other compound, you need the RAM of the elements and RMM of the compound. In this case H = 1 and Cl = 35.5 and the RMM = 36.5, so ~97% Cl.





Hanuman said:


> In any case is there a calculator out there what would allow me to calculate the ppm values that each of these acids add to the solution?


Not really, there are theoretical formula based on the disassociation content (pKa), but I'd strongly advise against using strong acids to reduce pH.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hanuman

Thanks Darell.
But why do you advise against it? Thought you suggested to use some earlier.  Any issues other than the risk associated with those strong acids? And what about sulfuric acid?





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## zozo

dw1305 said:


> Citric acid (C6H8O7) is a lot safer (it is weak acid) and may promote plant growth. It is also a weak chelator of iron etc.



I still have a Kilo of this stuff (Powder) in the kitchen. But actually never came to my mind to add to the aquarium together with the dry salts. 

How does one determine the proper dose? The initial pH drop?.


----------



## zozo

Hanuman said:


> Thanks Darell.
> But why do you advise against it? Thought you suggested to use some earlier.  Any issues other than the risk associated with those strong acids? And what about sulfuric acid?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



There are some references to find from people using vinegar in their planted tanks. I guess it's discovered accidentally using it as a cleaner to remove stains from the glass. It seems they found that it promotes plant growth by adding a regular dose.
http://scapefu.com/dosing-vinegar-in-your-aquarium/

I have no personal experience other than using it to clean the glass. But it seems to work.

Tho if your reason of using acids is a steady Ph drop i guess you're playing with dangerous stuff. Since the carbonates buffer acid, the pH drop will never be constant and go down and up again. Then at a certain amount  of strong acid (1ml to much), you will reach a buffer threshold and the pH will shoot down dramatically. This treshold is very hard to determine.

Give it a try with some tap water.. Drip the acid in it and monitor the pH. You might need to add quit a lot for the first 1 unit drop. Then it becomes significantly less to fine tune and make it drop further. Then if you reach the threshold 1 drop acid can be enough to make the ph drop 2 units and bellow a safe value.


----------



## Edvet

Hanuman said:


> But why do you advise against it?


You would drink Coca cola but not HCl ( about the same pH)


----------



## Hanuman

Edvet said:


> You would drink Coca cola but not HCl ( about the same pH)



 That doesn’t really answer the question. I know the dangers of strong acids. Beyond that aspect, is there any reason why not to use HCl.


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## zozo

Hanuman said:


> Beyond that aspect, is there any reason why not to use HCl.



I little guess is simply because it's too aggressive.  And using weaker acids is easier to fine-tune the final result. Since pH is a log to the power 10, then using a stronger acid you need significantly less and makes it difficult to work with small volumes.. And as explained above with strong acids 1 drop too much can crash the Ph. Then if 1 drop is to much how are you going to measure 1/10 of a drop? Then if you are to low you need to add e.g. KOH again to make it rise. That's also something you don't really like to play with too much.

But in the horticulture, it is pretty common to use products that contain 17% HCl, 3% and Nitric acid to regulate pH in the growing season. And 59% Phosphoric Acid in the blooming season. It's not used as preservation but to get the fert solution to ideal pH value, but then you are talking making vast quantities of fertilizer mix to water the plants.

If you like to regulate pH in 500ml solution it's more practical to use a weaker acid.


----------



## Hanuman

I appreciate all the answers and precautions but reading my previous exchanges with @X3NiTH and @dw1305 might shade some light on why these acids came to the discussion in the first place and why they could be needed. Obviously I will not just start adding blindly some acid by the liters. I was planning to run different tests first with some plain RO water see how HC was going to change and settle. I might not be a chemist but I am well equipped and take great care with chemicals. I got graduated pipettes, beakers, stir roads etc. In fact today I went ahead and bought some HCl and some H2SO4 but I think I went overboard on the strength. Thinking it twice I should have taken half strength (6 mol) as it will allow me easier control on PH. I might return the bottles tomorrow and exchange them since I didn't open them yet. And for those questioning why I got 400cc of acids, well the answer is simple. There was no lower quantities sold. I was looking for 100cc or even 50cc but none of the shops I enquire had those quantities. Also note the difference in levels between the two bottles. Seems I also got robbed  or perhaps got more in one bottle. Wont be emptying the bottle to check that's for sure!!



 

Beyond that, weaker acids like the one I have been using (Ascorbic Acid) have their limits and if one wants to bring PH below PH3 one would need to add copious amounts which might not be the best thing to do. @X3NiTH explains it well a few posts above.


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## Hanuman

Edvet said:


> You would drink Coca cola but not HCl ( about the same pH)


In fact human stomach produces HCl... granted not at the same concentrations as one finds in chemical stores!
"The highest concentration that gastric acid reaches in the stomach is 160 mM [...]"


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## Zeus.

It's been a while since studying chemistry (so might have it wrong!)
But think it's to do with HCL and H2So4 are simple acids so give up their H+ quite freely hence the big pH drop for given [molar], where as Citric acid is more complex so doesn't give up as many H+ as the simple acids at same [molar]. So when using simple acids you get bigger pH swings when added and as the H+ ions get mopped up, where as the complex acids give a small pH swing but as the H+ ions get mopped up the complex acids release more H+ ions due to the change in equilibrium so the complex acids have more buffering capacity- and help maintain a more stable pH, therefore better for tank 
I could be wrong and I'm sure on if the guys will correct me if I am


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## Zeus.

Hanuman said:


> In fact human stomach produces HCl... granted at the same concentrations as one finds in chemical stores!
> "The highest concentration that gastric acid reaches in the stomach is 160 mM [...]"



And being a simple acid releases its H+ freely big pH drop and starts the breakdown of proteins.


----------



## Penta

Zeus. said:


> ...., therefore better for tank
> I could be wrong and I'm sure on if the guys will correct me if I am


And what about the HCl reaction of 2H+ and  CO3 => H2O + CO2 . Not bad for high KH aquarium


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## dw1305

Hi all,





Hanuman said:


> I am well equipped and take great care with chemicals.....but I think I went overboard on the strength. Thinking it twice I should have taken half strength (6 mol) as it will allow me easier control on PH.


@Hanuman.  *This is really important, don't open the bottles. These are potentially life threatening chemicals and should only be opened inside a fume hood, by a qualified chemist, who is wearing full protective clothing.

Breathing the fumes from the bottles will hospitalise you and if you try and dilute the acids in the wrong sequence you are likely to have an explosion.
*
cheers Darrel


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Hanuman said:


> And what about sulfuric acid?


It's even more corrosive acid than HCl.





Hanuman said:


> In any case is there a calculator out there what would allow me to calculate the ppm values that each of these acids add to the solution?





Hanuman said:


> But why do you advise against it?


It is really because of your first question.

There are lot of different molarities of "hydrochloric acid", when we say HCl what we really have is an aqueous solution of the salt hydrogen chloride. Hydrogen chloride is really soluble, so concentrated HCl  is twelve Molar, 37% HCl and a pretty scary liquid. 





Hanuman said:


> I know the dangers of strong acids. Beyond that aspect, is there any reason why not to use HCl.


Yes and no, even a dilute solution is still a strong acid, so you get a really rapid pH change <"when you run out of buffering">.  You can see the titration curves below.






A weak acid is much safer.

cheers Darrel


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Zeus. said:


> But think it's to do with HCL and H2So4 are simple acids so give up their H+ quite freely hence the big pH drop for given [molar], where as Citric acid is more complex so doesn't give up as many H+ as the simple acids at same [molar]. So when using simple acids you get bigger pH swings when added and as the H+ ions get mopped up, where as the complex acids give a small pH swing but as the H+ ions get mopped up the complex acids release more H+ ions due to the change in equilibrium so the complex acids have more buffering capacity- and help maintain a more stable pH, therefore better for tank


That is right. <"Strong" acids"> are acids that disassociate fully, so H+  and Cl-. "Weak" acids are "diprotic", so they have two  disassociation constants. 

This is the titration curve for when you add sodium hydroxide (NaOH) a strong base to ethanoic (acetic) acid (C2H4O2) a weak acid. Citric acid would give you a similar curve.



 

Weak acids can still be <"very strong corrosives">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## X3NiTH

Yikes! For relative safety I wouldn't have gone higher in acid concentration than a 1Molar Solution, you've exceeded that by quite a significant margin, definitely return them for weaker solutions, as Darrel says about the super high molarity acid and not having a fume hood 'Absolutely Do Not Open', the relative humidity in Thailand will go straight into the bottle and could start a fuming reaction and produce a lot of heat.

Using 1Molar HCl you need 1ml per 99ml of water (@pH7) to bring the pH down to 2.

If I absolutely needed product stability and long shelf life (unrefrigerated) I would still acidify the receiving water down to pH3 with Ascorbic Acid before adding the 1M HCl to bring it down the final point to pH2. This way you are not overdosing Ascorbic as the amount added for pH3 would still be advantageous to have in the mix for a little chelation, neither would you be adding too much Cl via the HCl.

I have given a bit of thought about which acids to use, (as above it would likely be combinatorial), HCl and Sulphuric for trace solutions only, either singularly or together to balance out the Cl and SO4 content in the final solution, can also can be used in Trace with the presence of Fe, if I didn't mind extra N you could use Nitric. Phosphoric I would use for 'All in One' solutions that already had PO4 in the mix. I wouldn't add Phosphoric to Trace+Iron just in case the P reacted with Fe in the bottle at some point through it's shelf life and dropped it out of solution.


----------



## Hanuman

X3NiTH said:


> Phosphoric I would use for 'All in One' solutions that already had PO4 in the mix. I wouldn't add Phosphoric to Trace+Iron just in case the P reacted with Fe in the bottle at some point through it's shelf life and dropped it out of solution.



Not sure I understand. You say you would use phosphoric acid for an all-in-one solution but not to a Trace+iron solution. An all-in-one solution contains Traces+iron so I am missing something here.


----------



## X3NiTH

Sorry that sentence reads a little funny. With an 'All in One' solution you would want N, P and K along with the Trace elements including Iron, so using an acid that provides N or P wouldn't matter since both these elements are required for this mix and could be used to supplement or replace a salt based source for these elements, it would be expected that in this mix Fe and P are going to be side by side in the bottle anyway and some amount of either will likely react and become unavailable, bringing the pH lower may make one or both these elements more available if the acid contains one of the elements needed.

If I were doing Trace and Iron only I wouldn't want to add a P based acid source because the mix doesn't require P.

It's the Hydrogen you want to move the pH, the corresponding element it comes with only matters if it reacts with some other desired element in the recipe making it unavailable.

Hopefully that makes better sense.


----------



## Hanuman

X3NiTH said:


> Sorry that sentence reads a little funny. With an 'All in One' solution you would want N, P and K along with the Trace elements including Iron, so using an acid that provides N or P wouldn't matter since both these elements are required for this mix and could be used to supplement or replace a salt based source for these elements, it would be expected that in this mix Fe and P are going to be side by side in the bottle anyway and some amount of either will likely react and become unavailable, bringing the pH lower may make one or both these elements more available if the acid contains one of the elements needed.
> 
> If I were doing Trace and Iron only I wouldn't want to add a P based acid source because the mix doesn't require P.
> 
> It's the Hydrogen you want to move the pH, the corresponding element it comes with only matters if it reacts with some other desired element in the recipe making it unavailable.
> 
> Hopefully that makes better sense.



It does. 

To make things simple for an all-in-one solution I will stick to H3PO4 (Phosphoric Acid) as the "additional" PH reducer using C6H8O6 (Ascorbic Acid) as the initial PH reducer.

If preparing separate solutions perhaps sticking to C6H8O6 for the Traces should be enough. So far the separate solution of Traces I have made has been stable with only C6H8O6 for over a month. No precipitation observed. If I want longer shelf life or to combine Traces+Iron I might simply add a little HNO3 (Nitric Acid) or HCl or/and Sulfuric (H2SO4) as you suggested.

And promise I will exchange today those concentrated bottles of HCl and H2SO4 I have. I have to admit I got a bit carried away. This said, we are all here to learn and exchange so experimenting is important.

Hopefully this will appease some spirits. I do appreciate the concern though.


----------



## Hanuman

We good now?



Couldn't find any lower concentration so will have to work with that.

I carried out some tests with plain RO water. Below are the results. I used a 2ml graduated pipette for the acids as well as a 1L graduated beakers for the water. The first 500ml of water for the first test were measured with a 100ml graduated cylinder (certified by the government - see pic below) for maximum precision. Repeated 5 times to get 500ml. I then visualized the level in the 500ml beaker for all other tests just to speed up things so there is probably a 5% +/- error margin in water levels for the following tests.

That sums it up. I took great care in handling those acids and happy to report I got no burns. I even had a sip of the phosphoric acid, was delicious. Nah just joking! 



I suppose slightly less than 0.1ml of H3PO4 for 1L of water should work giving me a PH of 2.4. Of course this is without the addition of Ascorbic Acid so I am not sure if one would need to decrease the H3PO4 amount if adding C6H8O6.


----------



## X3NiTH

All good!


----------



## Hanuman

So if I am reading those TDS results right for H3PO4 I am getting 495ppm for 0.1ml of H3PO4 for 1L of water, which means 0.0495ppm of PO4 for a dosage of 1ml for 10L of water. Is that correct?


----------



## Hanuman

Hello all,

Would like to update and provide some feedback.

So I did some test batches today:

*1 liter all-in-one:* I used ascorbic acid + H3PO4. Strangely though, I was able to bring the PH down with the ascorbic acid alone to PH 2.6 with the prescribed quantity of 1g/1L. I pulled it further down to PH 2.2 with 13 drops of H3PO4. Not sure if that was in fact necessary though. So I started adding each trace one by one then mixing each time. PH went up to PH 2.8 after I finished adding all the traces. So far so good. Once I added the macros and then the Fe DTPA that is when things went south. PH shot up to 3.8 - PH 3.9. So that's not good. Since I did not test PH after adding the macros then it could have either been the macros or the iron or both. But I suspected the iron. So I did the following batch:

*1 liter traces + iron only:* this time I used ascorbic acide + HNO3 since I was not going to add macros. PH was down to PH 2.6 after adding the ascorbic acid. Adding 0.4ml of HNO3 brought the PH further down to PH 2.4. I then added the traces. PH went up to PH 3.2. This is the interesting part. I decided to stick my PH meter in the solution while adding half of the Fe DTPA. PH went right up to PH 3.8. I then added the remaining Fe DTPA. PH went further up to PH 4.1. Not good again.

So clearly the problem is my iron. And this is where it struck me. I am using Fe DTPA 7% and I need to add 21.43g/L to get to my 0.15ppm. Looking at Rotala Butterfly calculator only 13.64g/L is required with Fe DTPA 11%. So I might need to change my iron source.

@X3NiTH, @dw1305  what do you guys think?


----------



## X3NiTH

A while back I made up a concentrated solution of FeDTPA11% for dosing but never used it so it sat for months in the bottle, the sulphur came out of solution and formed a waxy in appearance sedimented cake on the bottom of the bottle that needing prodding to break the cake up to allow me to mix it back into solution, it always drops back out though again over time. 

So extrapolating from the above observation in relation to the question then yes, using a higher percentage concentration of FeDTPA should lessen the pH rise to a degree, but it will always be there because the sulphate the iron is bound to alongside the DTPA drops the sulphur in solution thus freeing up a pile of extra oxygen to react with the extra hydrogen provided by the acid thus forming hydroxides which raises the pH. You would need to add more acid to counteract this effect.


----------



## Hanuman

X3NiTH said:


> So extrapolating from the above observation in relation to the question then yes, using a higher percentage concentration of FeDTPA should lessen the pH rise to a degree, but it will always be there because the sulphate the iron is bound to alongside the DTPA drops the sulphur in solution thus freeing up a pile of extra oxygen to react with the extra hydrogen provided by the acid thus forming hydroxides which raises the pH. You would need to add more acid to counteract this effect.



Thank you. I am currently sourcing some FeDTPA 11%. I think I found a source in Thailand. Will make new batches once I get it and share the results.

If I can avoid using stronger acids that would be great but I suspect there is no way around it because I still need to bring the PH down to PH2 in order to have a final solution in the 3 or 3.5 PH range. I tested the PH of a product called "Iron" from a company called Cal Aqua Labs. It was PH 3.4. In the past I used that company's product until I realized I could make my own. The products are good but just like any other liquid fertilizer making company for the aqua hobby, prices don't justify the content.

Interestingly when looking at your preparation your PH drops when you add the FeDTPA. Why would that be?



X3NiTH said:


> 500ml Micro dosed @ 1ml/10L, Preparation as follows -
> 
> 450ml RO/DI + 0.25g Ascorbic Acid - pH 3.2
> 
> + 0.77g MnSO4.H2O (Mn 0.05 mg/L) - pH 3.42
> 
> + 0.9g ZnSO4.7H2O (Zn 0.04 mg/L) - pH 3.5
> 
> + 0.86g H3BO3 (B 0.03 mg/L) - pH 3.5
> 
> + 0.019g Na2MoO4.2H2O (Mo 0.0015 mg/L) - pH 3.6
> 
> + 0.04g CuSO4.5H2O (Cu 0.002 mg/L) - pH 3.68
> 
> + 0.0113g NiSO4.6H2O (Ni 0.0005 mg/L) - pH 3.74
> 
> At this point the resulting mixture is clear with zero precipitation. The addition of the Fe increases the opacity of the mixture.
> 
> + 50ml Fe Gluconate (pH 3.05 - Fe 0.1 mg/L) - pH 3.35 (Green tint to the mix)
> 
> + 2.275g FeDTPA 11% (Fe 0.05mg/L) - pH 3.19 (Brown Green tint to the mix)


----------



## X3NiTH

The pH of my concentrated FeDTPA solution that I talk about above has an equilibrium pH of 3 (I just tested it, yup it's still in the bottle with its sulphur sediment). If you make up a concentrated solution of your own source you will probably find the pH is much higher because there's is more sulphate being added in 7% concentration Fe than 11%, all that extra sulphate provides the extra oxygen to bind with the hydrogen and form hydroxide raising the pH. 

You can see in my mix that every time a sulphate is added there is a corresponding rise in pH due to the extra O₄ being added thus reacting with the Hydrogen and forming hydroxide bumping up the pH. When I add the FeGluconate more hydrogen is being added so the equilibrium changes and the pH drops, because the pH of my 11% FeDTPA is lower still there is a corresponding further drop.

So your initial assumption is correct, the pH difference is due to the lower concentration of Fe in the 7% than 11% requiring a significantly larger volume of carrier to be added (SO₄) to attain the same Fe mg/L values as 11% concentration.


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## Hanuman

Thank you for explaining the details. I have ordered FeDTPA 11% and should be getting it this week. See attached PDF for info on the product.

As for the all-in-one that I prepared the other day, as expected, some reaction occurred. I checked this morning and there was a sediment layer at the bottom of the bottle. I guess I will be using that batch to fertilize my plants outside!


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## Zeus.

X3NiTH said:


> A while back I made up a concentrated solution of FeDTPA11% for dosing



What concentration did you make m8? ( if you can remember) Could this precipitation have a concentration threshold ? or is it just a case of once the the O2 gets in solution we have slow breakdown.


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## X3NiTH

I thumbed through my notes and found a page with zero context, it can be decoded with access to my personal computation unit and the cypher 1ml/50L.





The cryptic Vape potion reference is the container size I had to hand of 60ml. The target dose would have been 1ml for 0.15mg/L Fe in 50L, the DosingBottle reference is the concentrate premixed in a 60ml bottle (empty vape juice container, unused and of the same type the Mangabeys vape juice potion comes in, hence the cryptic reference).

Total Fe in the 60ml concentrate is 6,480mg, that’s the Fe weight for FeDTPA11%, if you add the other 89% of gubbins you get the total weight of the salt added to that 60ml potion bottle to make the dense concentrate mentioned above!


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