# Converting an Emersed tank to a Submersed tank.



## ukco2guy

Hi,

Well it`s time for me to convert my Emersed setup to fully Submersed. I have read some articles around the internet but i`m not entirely sure on the process and what i should be doing and when.  Kit wise i have a full co2 FE based rig sat ready to go, 4x24w T5 lights, an Eheim 2075 full of media and mature as on another ei dosed planted tank, hydor inline heater, inline boyu diffuser. Flora wise HC (lots of growing for 2 months now), Staurogyne SP, Eleocharis and that`s about it. Thinking of ideas for background plants.
So far i think the following is what i need to do:
1.	Fill tank slowly and check HC etc to make sure they are not going to `float`.
2.	Plant my stem plants etc and any others that i could not add during the Emersed state
3.	Ramp up CO2 really high, well get this baby up as high as possible, say 6b/s
4.	Start dosing regimen from day one, in my case EI based on 20g tank so 3x Macro`s per week (2.5ts KNO3, 2ts KH2PO4, 500ml bottle made up monthly) and 2x Micro`s per week (2ts CSM+B)
5.	Keep photo period to say 6-8hrs per day
6.	Keep an eye on any melting with the transition and remove dead leaves accordingly
7.	Maintain high flow all the time (this 20gal will have an Eheim 2075 and possibly a Koralia 1 to aid distribution.
8.	2-3 50% water changes per week for first 4-6 weeks
9.	After 4-6 weeks start to reduce co2 back down to 30ppm within photoperiod
10.	Reduce water changes to 50% once per week
11.	Introduce fish, shrimp etc
12.	Continue dosing at same rate
13.	Slowly increase photoperiod up to 10hrs per day gradually

That`s what i make of it so far so please let me know your thoughts / experiences. Reason why this has to be done asap, something has started eating my Staurogyne SP and well i want to enjoy my first gumi ïŠ

Pics of pre-submersed state:




















Cheers,


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## ceg4048

100 watts T5 over a 20G tank is completely over the top, especially if they are mounted with reflectors.  
You shouldn't need any more than half of that, and you'd save yourself some grief if you started the tank out with 1/4 of that for the first few weeks.

Cheers,


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## Dan Crawford

100 watts is a pretty heavy hit! You _could_ grow plants but it would be at a massive risk of an algae brake-out! I'd reduce it to half as Clive says.

The rest of your plan sounds great.

When filling i'd suggest covering the entire substrate, plants and rocks in a plastic bin bag, place your hose on top of that and start to fill very slowly. This should prevent any of the plants floating up. Once the tank is filling up, the bag will start to float too, allow it to do so and remove it when you feel confident that the flow from the hose isn't going to "blast" the heck out of your plants.

Good luck, can't wait to see it.


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## ukco2guy

Clive / Dan,

No worries, noted  I will have two on for the first month then increase if required, all depends on how quick the growth is i guess. Filling wise i was going to use the `Oliver Knott` method i saw encompassing paper and plastic but thanks for the tips 

Cheers,


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## ukco2guy

Hi,

It`s been over a week now since the flooding and although i was expecting some algae it appears that i might have more than i bargained for! As per advice i have only had 1 bulb on for 6hrs per day with daily EI dosing and 50% water changes every 2 days. I am hoping it will thin out and eventually go but for time being i need to get an idea of what my options are and if i potentially have a disaster on my hands.

I have taken a few pics to show the current condition of the plants, my current photography skill are not on par with you guys but i am getting there with the equipment that i have available. I can see what i think is Cyanobacteria on most of it but please suggest ideas. I have since pulled, trimmed and cleaned the leaves as much as possible, they are all in another tank to hopefully be cleaned up by some of my wife`s shrimp.





























Cheers,


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## ceg4048

Well, we know BGA is an NO3 issue so the first thing you have to look at is what KNO3 dosing you are using. If you prepared a mix you have to review how you prepared the mixture. Then of course one has to consider whether flow strength is adequate (did you follow the 10X rule?) and if so the distribution technique has to be reviewed. Getting flow to the substrate is always an issue. These are always the same issues regardless of dry start or wet start. I'd guess that flow is a major factor.

You might also wish to consider trimming the bushes to get better horizontal growth and to enhance flow distribution in the bed.

Cheers,


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## ukco2guy

Hi Clive,

Current dosing is  (2.5ts KNO3, 2ts KH2PO4, 500ml bottle made up monthly) and 2x Micro`s per week (2ts CSM+B, 500ml bottle made up monthly). I also dose half the amount of a daily dose of npk after each water changes (3x per week atm). Should this be turned up at this stage? I think reducing is just asking for more issues.

Flow wise their`s a single Eheim 2075 which as you have told me before will be under half it`s rated value (stupid marketing hype, well that and an empty canister) so i think it would be somewhere in the region of 9x-10x, i usually follow your advise and my other tanks all have spray bars positioned to get the best coverage but this at the moment is just the outflow in one corner to provide a circular motion, i am going to make a bar at the weekend as i need to control the velocity seeing as this is quite a small tank. With this i can see virtually all leaves etc gently swaying but as you say i need to trim the HC down to get more movement to the substrate, any particular method or do i just go for it and trim it right down?. I presume by `bush` you mean the hc?

Cheers,


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## ceg4048

Yes, that's what I mean. As many people find out, HC does not tolerate any level of incompetence. High CO2 coupled with high dosing (what on Earth possessed you to do half dosing?  ) is required. Aren't you glad you didn't use 100 Terrawatts of T5 Klingon Disrupter Beam? Your troubles might easily be 4X worse.  

Just get the scissors out and trim near to the base like a haircut. It will look horrible at first but this allows the new submerged leaves to grow more horizontally and will allow better distribution into the beds. The leaves that you have now are optimized for growing in air, not water. That's why they are susceptible to even minor mistakes.

Cheers,


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## ukco2guy

I might have said that the wrong way, i dose daily in the mornings (full dose) and then in the evening water change i stick another half dose in afterwards as i figured 50% change and half dose will aid the loss. Should i not dose in the mornings but dose after the evening water change? Please provide a suitable kicking if i am still driving the wrong way down the road. And yup light wise good thing i listened. On that note the t5 in there at the moment is a 10k and about a year old (previous owner had it on a marine tank), should i be replacing that asap with a 965 from lampspecs?

HC I shall look at cutting it right down at the weekend, i`ll shove the cuttings in the other emersed tank. and give the substrate some movement / remove any algae. No pearling for a while then but in the interests of proving to the wife that mine looks better than hers i`ll get that mowed asap. Staurogyne wise most of it looks fine and fingers crossed it will be cleaned up asap by the shrimp / sae`s.


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## ceg4048

ukco2guy said:
			
		

> I might have said that the wrong way, i dose daily in the mornings (full dose) and then in the evening water change i stick another half dose in afterwards as i figured 50% change and half dose will aid the loss. Should i not dose in the mornings but dose after the evening water change? Please provide a suitable kicking if i am still driving the wrong way down the road.


Naw, I probably just read it wrong. It's just more complicated than necessary. I'd just dose the full amount after the water change and call it good. In any case, if you're dosing properly then this points more to flow/distribution than anything (although I can't quite tell from the photos if you have other types of algae.) If this is the only type of algae then it points to a need for more NO3 and points away from flow/distribution. The easiest thing you could do is to add more KNO3 to your mix as another troubleshooting option. This should tell you within a few days.



			
				ukco2guy said:
			
		

> And yup light wise good thing i listened. On that note the t5 in there at the moment is a 10k and about a year old (previous owner had it on a marine tank), should i be replacing that asap with a 965 from lampspecs?


Errr..well, I mean, why? I guess if you like the color of 965 better than the marine bulb then yeah, absolutely, go for it. The marine bulbs are very harsh looking and are not very complimentary, but who cares how old the bulb is? If the light turns on when you flip the switch, and if you like the color then I can't see any reason to change it. The bulbs age or it marine background certainly don't have anything to do with your problem. I mean, anyone who thinks that 965 or other so-called "freshwater" bulbs make a tank less susceptible to algae, or that marine bulbs cause worse algae, is living in a dream world. Review the thread actinic lighting vs algae growth for more details. Focus on your real problem which is poor NO3 uptake for the given lighting intensity level. Just as a reality check, I assume the filter is not clogged with detritus? That's another typical cause.

Did I mention that massive CO2 levels causes a massive increase in nutrient demand? Hypereutrophic tanks are often a viscous cycle. Not for the faint of heart.

Cheers,


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## ukco2guy

Hi,

Ok mate, tonight`s maintenance will consist of:
Getting a spray bar mounted and if necessary drilled to reduce velocity
Severe mowing of the HC right down to the substrate
Upping the concentration of KNO3 in the macro bottle
Checking the filter and cleaning the pre-filter if necessary.

Lights wise sure, i had a pair of 965`s in the past and i quite liked them as well as the price  And i completely agree that these branded things make near zero difference other than looking prettier. I just chose 965`s as they looked good on another tank, might not be the case with this one but it`s fun finding out and experimenting.

The plants that i stuck in the quarantine tank last night have had a good clean up, the SAE`s sorted out the potted Staurogyne and the individual stems got cleaned up nicely by the wifes shrimp.. I`ll leave them in there for a while longer until the algae in this tank subsides. CO2 wise i am guessing needs to remain high at the moment as it`s only been a short while since being emersed? Algae wise i just have this BGA and some brown stuff on the plants which comes off easily, i`m guessing `new tank` syndrome on the brown stuff?

Cheers as ever for the help!


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## ukco2guy

Well first mowing complete and it does look like it`s had a heard of cows grazing all over it! Most of the clippings are out but i`m not sure if anyone in interested in them so i`ll shove it on the for sale section with a request for a donation to the forum. A new bottle of ferts has been made up with 5tsp KNO3, 3tsp KH2PO4 and 500ml of water. I have dosed 60ml of this and left the lights off as the photoperiod finished just before the maintenance took place.

As you can see the spray bar is in, not the best for now but i`m going to make one up to fit the full length. Everything is swaying nicely and most of the algae has been removed. The substrate is visable and it does not look like much rotting going on so i think i might have been lucky here.

Pics:

Before...




During...




After...








Cheers,


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## ceg4048

Yep, getting the flow to the substrate is of paramount importance, so glad to hear that you've got movement down low there. The brown stuff is diatoms and yes, is related to new tank - but is much more related to high light. Never forget that  

Cheers,


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## Cordi

Hey dude,

I won't be doing a plant order, so if you're after some pog then i can give you some clippings (but only if you come in on a friday)

Cordi


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## ukco2guy

@ Cordi - Ok mate, i`ll try and get in friday either lunch time or just after work at 17:30, clippings would be awesome!

Ok tank. Flow has been improved, i have a spray bar going almost the whole width of the tank and it appears that the `carpet` is moving about nicely. I have drilled the holes slightly wider as to reduce the velocity as it was battering some of the eleocharis about. Ferts wise i have upped the solution to 5tsp kno3 and 3 khpo4 dosed 60ml 3 times a week, it`s been a week since starting this regimen. CO2 has been lowered a bit to 3b/sec and dc is light green most of the day. BGA has been getting worse and despite 3x water changes per week with alot of manual extraction it`s pretty much worked it`s across the carpet from left to right. I fear i will loose all my plants to this  Plus side the brown stuff has died down and i`m not seeing as much growth.

So is my method correct? Should i change anything or is their anything i can better improve on?

Cheers,


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## ceg4048

You'll probably have to do a blackout to regain control.
1. Clean out as much of the algae as you can and do a 50% water change. 
2. Dose nutrients, especially KNO3. 
3. Suspend CO2. 
4. Turn off lights and completely cover the tank with black bin liner or similar so that absolutely no light enters. 
5. Continue for 3 to 4 days. No peeking and no feeding.
6. Remove the covers and do a thorough cleaning with a 50% water change. 
7. Dose nutrients and restore CO2. 

Cheers,


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## ukco2guy

Hi,

Would it be worth me removing the remaining eleocharis and staurogyne sp before i carry out with this? Some of the staurogyne has melted but i`d like to recover at least some of it. Once the black out is complete should i be heavily planting back in?

Cheers,


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## ceg4048

Hmm, I'm not really sure. I guess it will depend on what you're planning to do with them during the blackout. I suppose you could keep the emmersed under high humidity. That would kick the algae at the same time. If you put them in another submersed environment then you have to make sure that the same conditions don't exist in the substitute tank. It's a gamble therefore whether the plants will fare better pulling them out and storing them versus leaving them in the tank under blackout.

Melting is a completely different story. I must have missed that part. That means poor CO2, so if you had both poor CO2 as well as poor NO3 then this might indicate poor overall flow/distribution. It's a shame things took such a turn for the worse, especially after all that patience you demonstrated with the DSM. I know you must be gutted mate. When the tank floods it's a different ballgame all together. I have to confess to being very surprised that a single bulb wreaked such havoc though...

Cheers,


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## ukco2guy

Hi,

I have the 4ft tank which i can move them into, that`s been spot on since your advice over the last 6 months so any brown algae will get munched up by the sae`s in there. I have some rockwool and pots that i can stick them in until i can move them back. Some of the Staurogyne i have moved back to a emersed setup that i`ve started in another tank, i wasn`t sure if they were melting due changes with co2 from emersed to submerged but they are in there and looking ok at the moment. Main concern now is the eleocharis, if it starts to creep up on that then i`ll have to move it out, if that`s out as well then all i have left is the carpet of HC left, doh!

I will get the black out started tonight, put 60ml of kno3 (5tsp/500ml) in and switch the co2 off as per your advice, see where that takes me. I`ll be honest if it wasn`t for the generous advice etc on here i would have probably ditched the project altogether, stuck the 2075 on the 4ft alongside the 2078 and had done with it. But  i`ve spent quite a bit on this to just throw it all away!

I`ll post updates of progress, hey if i get through this all and the tank starts to shine hopefully they`ll be some info here for others to learn from 

Cheers,


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## ukco2guy

Bit of an update. Well it`s got worse, i haven`t tried the blackout yet as i wanted to see if i could fight it first. I have done almost daily water changes, lots of KNO3 and lots of flow. Now i also have some strange black looking hairy stuff growing in one corner of the glass. It`s weird, no matter how much i clean it all out more of it grows quicker. So i have two options... Carry on and hope that it slows down and some point or just ditch the project and sell it all off.. So questions:

1. Can i pull the eleocharis and safely move that to my other tank? Would i risk getting any of this slime in my other tank or because the other tank is stable i should be ok?
2. The 14ltr`s of Oliver Knott soil used in the tank, if i dry it all out would it be ok to sell on? e.g. all the slime should then have died?
3. Should i bin all the mowed HC? It does look like it`s growing well despite the slime that i`m removing from it, would it be too risky to give this to others if i rip the tank apart?









Cheers,


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## ceg4048

Err..hello, Earth calling ukco2guy....is there a good reason for not doing a blackout? Light causes algae, therefore lack of light kills algae.

If you have access to antibiotics such as erythromycin then you can kill it that way. Although many frown on it's use it is extremely effective. BGA is actually a bacteria, not an algae.

Cheers,


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## ukco2guy

Hi Clive,

No real reason, i know i`m probably making life harder than it needs be but i thought i would try and fight the issue a little longer with the recent recommendations. I will get large water change/clean out done, a high dose of my macros , turn the co2 off and then get it covered. I worry about the Eleocharis, will i be at risk if i pull all that out and put it in my other 4ft tank? I also wonder if my dose of KNO3 is high enough, i`m adding 5tsp KNO3 and 3.5tsp KH2PO4 to 500ml and dosing 3x per week @ 40ml. Should i raise that amount say to 6tsp before the blackout tonight?

Cheers,


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## ceg4048

Well, Eleocharis is more at risk of being consumed by BGA, so the blackout is the lesser of evils. Forget about pulling things out. Just get on with it. Afterward, the plant will recover when you resume CO2, flow and proper dosing. Just double the dosage to make life simple. You are thinking too much and this is paralyzing you. When you suffer an algal bloom speed is of the essence.

Cheers,


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## ukco2guy

Ok mate, it will be done tonight! I`ll perform as above and you keep posted.

Cheers,


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## ukco2guy

Hi,

Cleaned out, dosed heavily and bagged up like a Christmas pudding  Fingers crossed this will the only time i need to do it 





Cheers,


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## ukco2guy

Hi,

Well i`m almost though the 4 day blackout. Can you any of you guys share some tips on how i get it back? e.g. lighting, dosing, co2 etc. I will be uncovering the tank tomorrow and performing a 50-60% water change, getting the co2 up to 3b/s and dosing KNO3 straight away after the water change. Hopefully most of the BGA has died down, i`d like some advise on how to go about this?

Cheers,


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## ceg4048

Do exactly what you just stated mate. Clean the tank out really well, using plenty of elbow grease, even a 70%-90% water change isn't over the top to get all the gunk out. Return the CO2 to previous levels or higher if possible. Dose double what you were dosing prior and see how it goes.

Cheers,


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## ukco2guy

Hi,

Update 

Well after removing the cover the tank looked spotless (well compared to before), the HC has taken a bit of a hit but i`m hoping it will grow back in time. The glass was very clean but i cleaned it and the substrate, plants etc then performed a 90% water change. For the last week i have dosed double on the ferts and CO2 is higher than average. I also took the time to re-scape slightly and have introduced some moss, eleocharis and some more staruogyne sp. All has been well for the last week until this evening! Come back from work tonight and it`s extremely cloudy. I have checked the filter and that`s all ok. I think it`s a spike but i don`t want to perform any more large water changes as i worry if it`ll just cause another spike? I have included the usual pics below, take a look and let me know what you think chaps?

After Blackout:





This evening (1 week after blackout):





Cheers,


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## ceg4048

I'd just keep doing multiple large water changes, keep CO2 high and keep dosing.

Cheers,


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## ukco2guy

Ok cool. Same as before then mate... Any ideas on what might have caused it? Filter i thought would have been matured already. I`m guessing it`s a cycle of some kind?

Cheers,


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## ceg4048

There are bacteria that feed on anything you can imagine. Could have been decaying bodies of the dead algae triggering a bloom which took a week to incubate and grow full scale population. Could have been something introduce when you added new plants. Difficult to say. These bacteria may not be nitrifying types. Sometimes they persist for weeks.

Cheers,


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## youmustcomply

Nice looking tank


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## greenink

blimey this has put me off a dry start... but thanks for sharing it!


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## ceg4048

Err...are we reading the same thread?  :?  What does dry start have to do with any of the problems discussed? The OP's problems started after he flooded the tank, so this would be like blaming your car for causing a car accident. 

The OP incurred the same faults that many others incur when starting a tank; too much light, poor understanding of flow and distribution, poor CO2 and lazy dosing. Dry Start Method cannot save you from inattentiveness and it is likely that he would have incurred many more problems had he not implemented the DSM.

Cheers,


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## greenink

I do blame my car.

Seriously though, have been wondering about this.

Does HC need different leaves underwater? If so, does it all need to die back and regrow once you flood it? If so, what's the benefit in dry start?

Does stauro do the same? In my experience emersed leaves die off once you plant under water, and new growth is healthy. So again, what's the benefit?


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## ceg4048

Yep, virtually every plant needs to change out the leaves when submerged. Leaves that functioned perfectly in open air are very inefficient underwater, so flooding a tank traumatizes every plant for reasons described in the thread viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16038

However, when you experience massive die off of leaves after flooding, then that normally is a strong indicator that your flow/distribution and CO2 are fundamentally weak and that probably your lighting is too high at that stage of the tanks development. I grow both HC and Staurogyne and I don't have these problems after flooding. The HC will usually just sit there doing nothing for a few weeks and then will become active. I don't use nearly the amount of light intensity at this point as I will much, much later on. People just can't wait to throw photon bombs at their plants before they are ready, and when the leaves start to fall off they blame it on lack of light, causing further mayhem.

The real reason DSM is employed is that the amount of time that the sediment is moist encourages bacterial action and maturation of the sediment. That way, when the tank is flooded then it is practically cycled. People fret all the time about whether the tank is cycled, not understanding that the bacterial population of their sediment is as equally important as the bacterial population of the filter media. DSM mineralizes the ammonia in the sediment and grows huge nitrifying bacterial populations without the penalty of algal blooms. This is especially important for those who use sediments rich in organic content and for those who use Aquasoil Amazonia and the Oliver Knott equivalent as these sediments are high in ammonia. If you flood the tank immediately these soils will leach ammonia into the water column, but DSM prevents this from happening by developing the bacterial populations in the sediment which then convert the ammonia. When you flood a DSM tank that uses Amazonia you will not have this problem of leaching ammonia. Many of the algae problems that we incur at tank startup is a result of unstable ammonia production in the sediment and DSM solves this.

The secondary benefit of DSM is that it gives you time for the plants to grow roots into the sediment. How many times have you painstakingly planted your tank only to see your plants floating around after you flood? Isn't that annoying? Well, plants living in DSM grow roots which gives them mechanical stability in the tank. They also are able to increase their mass more easily because they have access to atmospheric CO2, so you don't have to buy as many, because you essentially are propagating the plants insitu.

Having said all that, if you then flood the tank and make the same mistakes in terms of lighting, CO2 and flow/distribution then you will have problems caused by excessive lighting, and poor CO2/flow/distribution. You still have to follow the correct procedures.

Hope this clarifies.

Cheers,


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## greenink

Yup, as usual it sure does! DSM on my new tank then...


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