# Paul's 200L, "Punishment of Luxury"



## paul.in.kendal (4 Aug 2009)

Here we go:

















How did I do?


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## baron von bubba (4 Aug 2009)

like the rock type!
i'm about as artistic as an ant, i know nothing about aquascaping, so take my opinion as worthless!   
but i think the rockwork would look better if it all sloped the same way. so each side would kinda compliment rather than oppose the other........


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## Tony Swinney (4 Aug 2009)

Hi Paul - well done with the pics   

Youve got some nice rocks there - it might be nice to try to get a bit more height out of the main left hand one, by changing the angle of it, or increasing the substrate underneath it.  Depending on your planting, it might get a bit lost amongst the foliage - what are your planting plans ?

I'd also try to alter the angle of the left and right hand clusters - they mirror each other at the moment.  My preference is for the striations in the rocks to follow the same sort of angle throughout, but thats just my geometric OCD   

What are your plans for the background of the tank ?  Nothing against your wallpaper of course   

Great start - welcome to many hours of 'scape-tweaking'

Tony


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## paul.in.kendal (4 Aug 2009)

I've just realised I should have put this in Journals.  I thought I'd do that once I'd nailed posting images - but overlooked the fact that as soon as I'd posted hardscape, people would respond to it!  

Could a moderator move the tail-end of this thread - from the pictures onwards - to the Journals section?  I'd hate to lose the very first feedback - which I'm carefully considering!

A name for the Journal? 
Paul's 200L, "Punishment of Luxury".


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## paul.in.kendal (4 Aug 2009)

OK, I've tried more upright and strata aligned:








Planting: no clear plans but I'd like to use Glossostigma elatinoides and/or Hemianthus callitrichoides and/or Riccia fluitans in the foreground; Pogostemon helferi, Eleocharis parvula and Hydrocotyle verticillata in the midground.  Background - I don't know, I would like to grow Nymphaea lotus sometime, but I don't think it would work with this hardscape.  Vallisneria perhaps?  Open to planting suggestions, really.

Instead of the wallpaper - I dunno...


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## George Farmer (4 Aug 2009)

What's going on, Paul?!    

I expected you to have a pre-determined rock layout ready and waiting...  

The rocks look great - real character.  That's the first and biggest hurdle conquered at the start.  No excuses now mate...

Planting sounds good - classic/safe Iwagumi choices.  

Vallisneria nana makes a nice background curtain effect, if you don't mind keeping it in check.  Cyperus helferi is a slower grower giving a similar/if more ornamental feel. 

One plant I've considered lately is the tall Lilaeopsis macloviana.

http://www.tropica.com/article.asp?type ... tic&id=608 

With a potential height of over 50cm it would make a interesting addition breaking away from the stereotypical Iwagumi backgrounds.

I think Mr. Knott has used it, but apart from that it's pretty much unused as far as I know.


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## baron von bubba (4 Aug 2009)

great name! :0)





hope ya dont mind me messing about with that. :0)
trying to learn paint shop a bit and just having a play!


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## squiggley (4 Aug 2009)

err... is it just me but this thread starts as "Paul's 200L, Punishment Of Luxuy" then Bubbas post next is "re oes all this sound reasonable? Any equipment imbalances?" (another of Pauls threads) and the switches back to the original "Punishment" title with Georges post


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## George Farmer (4 Aug 2009)

squiggley said:
			
		

> err... is it just me but this thread starts as "Paul's 200L, Punishment Of Luxuy" then Bubbas post next is "re oes all this sound reasonable? Any equipment imbalances?" (another of Pauls threads) and the switches back to the original "Punishment" title with Georges post


My fault.  

I split the thread from Paul's original "equipment imbalances" into this journal, hence the mixed titles.  I'll correct it now....  

Thanks.


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## JamesM (4 Aug 2009)

Great stone, but I'd take it to town and break it up a bit so you have more to play with. I'd also think about another bag of substrate to get more height and depth. Don't be afraid the really slope that soil.


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## TDI-line (4 Aug 2009)

Lovely rock Paul.


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## paul.in.kendal (7 Aug 2009)

Thanks for all the feedback, guys!

Tony - thanks for the suggestions - I've tried them and I think they work!

TDI - glad you like the rock - so do I!

James - it may not be obvious in the pictures, but the substrate rises from 1" to 5" plus.  The stone is seiryu stone.  A couple of small spurs broke off in transit, and the revealed surfaces seem very different, as if the stone has a surface patina.  So I'd be reluctant to break it up further.  It may not be obvious but I've got five pieces, and they seem to sit together nicely, mimicking deeper fissures between individual rocks.  so -

Baron von B - your messing with paintshop is outstanding, as you've created a sixth rock for me to play with!  But in truth, you have made me consider opening up some of the gaps between the rocks - we'll see.

George - yes I did have a hardscape idea all ready to go, but even with TGM's vast selection I couldn't match my ideas to their rock reality.  So I went with the flow instead.  And thanks for the planting comments - safe is what I need to start with, so that's good. Oh, and thanks for bunging this in the Journals section. 

Having put the Eheim pipework in, I can see why many loathe it - I'm finding it hard to resist the temptation of going straight for glassware, and hang the expense!

Also I chucked the idea of using two big Eheims and went for a single 2180 - just hope I don't wind up needing a powerhead to increase the flow.  The money saved was blown on a better luminaire with MH and some rather pink T5s.  I'll post pictures of the cabinet when I get home - I'm away for a few days right now.

Cheers all

Paul


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## TBRO (8 Aug 2009)

That rock is so nice, the layout is going to be so important. Have you tried one long ridge with the strata pointing in the same direction? Looking foreward to see the finished article -Tom


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## paul.in.kendal (13 Aug 2009)

Currently reflecting on this arrangement, with more steeply banked substrate - it's now 1" at front to 4-6" at rear:





















And i thought you might like to see my automated water change system:


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## Themuleous (13 Aug 2009)

Haha  Thats BRILIANT!


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## George Farmer (14 Aug 2009)

lol!  Nice one, Paul.  

Make sure you show Oliver Knott when you see him next month!  That'll be right up his street!


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## Tony Swinney (14 Aug 2009)

Looking good Paul   

I love the left hand side like this.  The outer rock on the right hand side looks a bit in shadow to me, so I'd maybe bring it towards the front of the tank, or swap those two around  :?:   Thats just me though, I'm sure you've spent many hours tweaking rocks already  

Tony


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## Superman (14 Aug 2009)

Whist the rocks themselfs are good, I think there's something lacking in rocks in the foreground.
As if there's no transition between foreground and the big rocks.


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## paul.in.kendal (14 Aug 2009)

Themuleous said:
			
		

> Haha  Thats BRILIANT!


I presume you mean the quality of my hardscaping? :text-imnewhere: 

As always, spiffing criticism chaps.

Tony - I have thought about bringing the RH group forward, but I'm a bit wary of creating too much background planting space, when I'd like a big area of fore- and midground planting.  If I've got lots of background space, don't I wind up with a dense mass of stems or an impenetrable forest of vallis-type background?  In fact I've been toying with moving the RH group further BACK! (But your comments reinforce my sense that that really wouldn't be a good idea).

Superman - I know what you mean about no transition from foreground to the big LH group.  But the intention is to have a big foreground carpet, with something like Pogostemon helferi along the front edge of that big group.  That way there's some genuine transition, without reducing the impact of the big LH group.  Perhaps you've been spoiled by all these clever-clogs with their graded gravel foregrounds(  ), and you're expecting me to do something like that?  Nope, I'll keep that for when I know what the hell I'm doing - this should have zero substrate showing, which I guess means no cories (sob).


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## FishBeast (17 Aug 2009)

What is that rock you guys use? I have nothing like it here.


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## paul.in.kendal (17 Aug 2009)

FishBeast said:
			
		

> What is that rock you guys use? I have nothing like it here.


Hi Fishbeast, it's Seiryu Stone from ADA.  Not cheap, but very nice.


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## aaronnorth (17 Aug 2009)

personally, i would move the large rock(s) from the back left corner more towards the centre (1/3rd from the edge going by the golden ratio), unless you are planning on a triangular composition?

nice selction of rocks too


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## paul.in.kendal (18 Aug 2009)

Hi Aaron, thanks for the helpful feedback  

The tank is towards one corner of the room, so will be viewed more from the right hand side than straight-on.  That's why I went for the major grouping on the left.  I'm going to try splitting the RH pair of rocks and moving the taller of the two to the centre, to create a more obvious downwards slope from left to right.  We'll see!


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## paul.in.kendal (23 Aug 2009)

OK, so here's a right to left transition.  Not sure I like it as much as the two groupings - the single stones look as if they've just been plonked in randomly.  And a picture of the cabinet setup (unfinished).  Thinking about the planting now.


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## oswoldy (23 Aug 2009)

Hiya,
Tank looks really nice!   

Quick question, what co2 canisters are they and where did you get them if you don't mind me asking?

Regards
Mike


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## paul.in.kendal (24 Aug 2009)

oswoldy said:
			
		

> Hiya,
> Tank looks really nice!
> 
> Quick question, what co2 canisters are they and where did you get them if you don't mind me asking?
> ...



Thanks Mike.  They're 3kg canisters from The Green Machine.


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## Graeme Edwards (24 Aug 2009)

Hi Paul, im really glad you have not rushed your hard scape. This is a very important stage...

My best advice I can give you with out telling you what to do is this......

Think odd numbers, triangles, flowing lines, transitional stages, rules of thirds and where the mains stones point, or what direction the majority of stones take and how their neighbors compliment them, but in all.... all stones are cohesive. 

With that in mind, I think your best bet would be to position your hard scape off center and use all the stones together in one arrangement. Then work with the above. 

Think about where or what will be the main focus of interests, one stone? The shape of them all, or a plant? Think how you can make an area stand out as a focal point or point of interest.

I hope im making sense and im helping,

Cheers.


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## hydrophyte (24 Aug 2009)

That looks nice. You have a beautiful cabinet there. Did you build it?


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## paul.in.kendal (25 Aug 2009)

hydrophyte said:
			
		

> That looks nice. You have a beautiful cabinet there. Did you build it?


It's from Aquariums Ltd - and you're right, it IS very nice!  Aquariums Ltd supplied the optiwhite tank too.  I went to see their impressive factory to pick them up - the cabinets are CNC machined, so accuracy and finish is top-notch. Aquariums Ltd is the preferred supplier for The Green Machine.


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## paul.in.kendal (25 Aug 2009)

Graeme Edwards said:
			
		

> I hope im making sense and im helping,
> 
> Cheers.



Of course you're making sense, Graeme - measured, considered advice as always  

Probably the hardest thing for me is judging the hardscape with no previous firsthand experience of the impact of planting on hardscape.  The other thing is that, as I continue to fiddle with it, the Powersand is now starting to surface, mucking up my smooth and uniform Aquasoil!

I'm moving towards bringing all the rockwork together on the left, leaving a large planting area to the right.  I'm realising that the defining shapes of the scape will be as dependent on what I plant there as on what I do with the Seiryu stone.

I got the Tropica planting tips and tricks DVD a while back, and it's reassuring to see on that how the planting impacts on the hardscape - and how heavy planting with broad swathes of a single species really adds impact.  I'm starting to get revved up for planting schemes, which suggests to me that the hardscaping is nearing completion - we'll see!


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## paul.in.kendal (26 Aug 2009)

OK.  I've brought the two groups closer together, making it more of a single unit, and creating a triangle from high left to low right (bearing in mind viewing in the room will tend to be more from the right across towards the left corner, if you get me).

I've also drawn in some suggested plants.  Not at all sure about these, but they help to define the overall shape.  Any alternative suggestions gratefully considered.

My tapwater is very soft - PH7, GH2 and KH2.  GH and KH may be even less, as they barely register on the Sera test kits.  I guess this may mean I should avoid hardwater-loving plants - or is this more a matter of some aquatic plants being lime-tolerant, rather than lime-dependent?

Here we go:






...and with plants:


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## paul.in.kendal (26 Aug 2009)

paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> OK.  I've brought the two groups closer together, making it more of a single unit, and creating a triangle from high left to low right (bearing in mind viewing in the room will tend to be more from the right across towards the left corner, if you get me).
> 
> I've also drawn in some suggested plants.  Not at all sure about these, but they help to define the overall shape.  Any alternative suggestions gratefully considered.
> 
> ...


Spot the mistake:


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## TBRO (26 Aug 2009)

Some really great plants in your selection but I would probably limit the carpeting plants (HC, PH, Parvula, Hydrocot, Staug) too, one or two species. Like wise for your stems/tall plants. I think the simple but striking hard-scape demands large patches of only a few species IMO As far as I'm aware all your plants should thrive in soft water apart from maybe vallis. 

Looking foreward to seeing it planted - T


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## R9naldo (27 Aug 2009)

it is ok .. my opinion is to remove the Vallisneria !or replace whit  cyperus helferi is more nicely plant for this layout ! but it whill realy look nice only whith small plants ! your whater quality is very good if it is low in Gh ! make a lot of whater changes to keep algae away    ! i hope you make the best decison in plants   blyxa japonica is an option   !


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## Stu Worrall (27 Aug 2009)

proposed setup loks really good paul.  THe only thing for me is with the left to right idea of the rock to fit the room the vallis then goes in the opposite direction.  This could look really good planted and youd have something different to the norm.  Have you thought about any other plants instead of the valis if you want it to go across the surface? ive alway loved crytp balansae (spelling?) for this and I did have it in an old tank.


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## Dan Crawford (27 Aug 2009)

I'd go for Vallis nana myself, Cyperus would also be great. The rest of the plans look sweet, along with the hardscape!


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## paul.in.kendal (27 Aug 2009)

Thanks for the useful comments, guys. I do like the suggestion of Cyperus Helferi -  might go for that instead of a vallis.  I notice I'm now a Hornwort Handful (woop,woop!) - does this mean my stem choice should be Ceratophyllum?  Any thoughts about what stem to go for? I'd like something I can trim to frame the outline of the rockwork.  What about Bolbitis (not a stem I know, but please bear with me).


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## Dan Crawford (27 Aug 2009)

What about rotala rotundafolia? I think the red would work really well and add the the "landscape" effect.


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## paul.in.kendal (27 Aug 2009)

Dan Crawford said:
			
		

> What about rotala rotundafolia? I think the red would work really well and add the the "landscape" effect.


Interesting.  I was thinking about something feathery, like myriophyllum or diplidis, but I can see that working.  Would the leaf shape contrast strongly enough with the Staurogyne?  I'm also wondering whether hairgrass and vallis/cyperus would be too similar in leaf shape...


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## George Farmer (27 Aug 2009)

Hi Paul

Plans are coming along nicely!



			
				paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> Would the leaf shape contrast strongly enough with the Staurogyne? I'm also wondering whether hairgrass and vallis/cyperus would be too similar in leaf shape...



Consider that plants do not have to contrast all the time...  One of my own favourite 'scapes from 2005 was "Mother Microsorium" that had complimenting textures in the fern and Sagittaria leaves.  Note the glosso and Anubias textures too.





Just a thought mate.  

Looking forward to seeing what you decide!


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## paul.in.kendal (27 Aug 2009)

George Farmer said:
			
		

> Consider that plants do not have to contrast all the time...


You're right, of course, George.  I think I'm over-focussed on leaf contrast at the mo' because I'm also wrestling with a corner of my garden where I have five (count 'em!) different plants with similarly shaped leaves.  It's right outside my back door, so it offends me every time I go in and out   

That's one helluva Mother, George :silent: .


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## paul.in.kendal (5 Sep 2009)

Not much happening at the moment, we've had a house full of friends and their small children, so the tank now has lots of sticky marks on the front glass.

Seeing that amazing video of the Amano tanks, I was impressed with the way he banks up the substrate so theatrically (at about 2.40-45,I think).  I'm now thinking of ordering another bag of Aquasoil and giving it a go.


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## paul.in.kendal (14 Sep 2009)

Oliver Knott was also being outrageous with (TGM's) bags of Aquasoil on Sunday.  So I bought another bag, banked it up, and here's the result:







#

Sorry about the reflections.  I reckon the dynamic curve of the substrate makes a big difference - only problem is, I'm now wondering if I should chuck yet another bag in!


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## George Farmer (14 Sep 2009)

Nice!  Looks much better.


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## JamesM (14 Sep 2009)

Told you it needed it


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## myboyshay (14 Sep 2009)

Great layout   Much better with the mounded soil, I did the same with mine, ended up using around 11L of Aquasoil powder.

Mark

My Journal (60cm Iwagumi)
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=7750#p85503


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## paul.in.kendal (16 Sep 2009)

JamesM said:
			
		

> Told you it needed it


You did tell me, didn't you?! Good man!  Just shows how easy it is to overlook excellent advice - still with Oliver and Takashi's help (as well as yours) I got there in the end...


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## Mark Evans (16 Sep 2009)

you da rock man!

nice....and different if i may so. you gota be close to planting?


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## paul.in.kendal (17 Sep 2009)

saintly said:
			
		

> you da rock man!
> 
> nice....and different if i may so. you gota be close to planting?


Thanks Mark.  I'm very close to planting, but my approach to these things is to constantly look for excuses to delay, and only take the next step when I run out of excuses.  The current (and probably final) excuse is that I need a clear window to do the planting and the initial daily water changes, and I've got stuff arranged that's stopping that happening.  But it'll be soon - very soon!


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## paul.in.kendal (2 Oct 2009)

I'm now looking for a retailer who can supply a Tunze Osmolator for auto top-ups and an SP3000 dosing pump for the ferts. 

Just a little tease - here's the tank with Oliver Knott-style static window film(foil  ) and backlit using a cupboard light fitting and a 15w pygmy bulb:


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## Steve Smith (2 Oct 2009)

Looks good Paul   Nice and moody!


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## paul.in.kendal (21 Nov 2009)

Just finished a three hour planting session.  Watching it fill Ollie Knott-style with paper and plastic as I type - here goes...


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## hydrophyte (21 Nov 2009)

The we should see it soon with plants and water. This should be a good one. Those are great stones that you selected. Where did you get them?


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## paul.in.kendal (21 Nov 2009)

This has got to be one of the slowest start-ups ever on UKAPS.  The tank was supposed to be a 50th birthday present to myself, but my birthday was back in July!  I'm thinking of renaming it "Deferred Gratification"...

Spec-
Tank size: 100cmx45cmx55cm high, c. 200 litres, opti-white (12ml glass) on ADA-style cabinet, all from Aquariums Ltd 
Filter: Eheim Thermo 2180 filled with Siporax, standard green pipes and spraybar on back wall 
Light: Arcadia Series 4, 150w MH plus 2x24w T5 
Co2: TGM pressurised set-up - 3KG bottle via Aquamedic reactor filled with Siporax, with solenoid
Ferts: EI all-in-one via dosing pump, home-brewed from dry powders
Substrate: ADA Aquasoil Amazonia over ADA Powersand Special
Hardscape: Seiryu stone
Flora: all Tropica from TGM; HC Cuba x14, Pogostemon Helferi x7, Eleocharis Parvula x7, Staurogyne x5, Hydrocotyle Verticillata x5 (only used 2 pots), Rotala Rotundifolia x5, Vallisneria nana x5, Limnobium laevigatum x1.

Lights on 6hrs (2x24w T5s only, luminaire up high)
Co2 on 7hrs (on 2hrs before lights on, off 1hr before lights off)
















Thanks for looking - as they say...


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## paul.in.kendal (21 Nov 2009)

hydrophyte said:
			
		

> The we should see it soon with plants and water. This should be a good one. Those are great stones that you selected. Where did you get them?


Seiryu stone from TGM - sharp-intake-of-breath price, but worth it   .


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## Mark Evans (21 Nov 2009)

if you stick to a good plan this should crazy in a few months. job well done.


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## AdAndrews (21 Nov 2009)

if it looks this good now, think what it will be like in a few months


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## Tony Swinney (21 Nov 2009)

Excellent Paul - looks great  

I bet you're pleased to have it planted and filled. You can sit back and admire it now ( untIl the trimming starts !)

tony


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## paul.in.kendal (21 Nov 2009)

Thanks guys - it's great to have finally got this thing fired up.  I'm gonna put up a thankyou list of all the people who have helped with this - it'll be a very long list!


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## TBRO (21 Nov 2009)

Great planting Paul, that HC will look sweet. Not sure the vallis fits with everything else but does hide the pipe work, nicley. Get that CO2 nice and high and watch the lawn grow ! T


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## George Farmer (22 Nov 2009)

Well-done, Paul!

This journal is a great example to newcomers of how it can be done.

Delayed gratification is more rewarding too.  The journey itself is often sweeter than the destination.

Nice one mate!


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## Nick16 (22 Nov 2009)

can i make a suhhestion? perhaps an anubia or two in the cracks of the rocks just to aid the transition. 
you might totally disagree here, but its worth a shout. Mark (saintly) uses the anubias to great effect.


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## paul.in.kendal (22 Nov 2009)

Thanks TBRO - I'm not totally sure about the vallis either.  If/when I go for glassware it could come out, but at the moment I need to learn basic aquarium maintenance before adding fragile glassware into the mix.  You might not realise, but I've not kept so much as a goldfish before - this is my first ever aquarium, so everything is new to me.

Thanks George.  Without UKAPS there's no chance whatever that I'd have got to where I am today - I've said it before and I'll say it again, UKAPS is an outstanding resource.  I just hope the commercial operators out there recognise how valuable you are to them.

Hi Nick, thanks for the feedback.  You might not see I've put a few bits of HC in cracks quite high up (Jim at TGM's suggestion - Thanks Jim). I know the standard approach is to soften the transition to big rockwork with midground plants, but I've consciously taken my HC right up the the big group with no transition in places, to see how it looks.  My inspiration is the fells around me, as there are plenty of massive rock outcrops with tightly cropped grass running right up to their bases.  In my naivety I wondered whether the transition-thing was a throwback to dutch style.  Anyway, this is a learning tank, so one way or another I'm going to learn something!


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## paul.in.kendal (22 Nov 2009)

DAY TWO

It's 9.30 and I've just done my first-ever water change.  Piece of cake, thanks to London Dragon's simple water change system - thanks LD.  The water already had a distinctly greenish tinge, although it wasn't murky, as the Oliver Knott fill-up had worked a treat.  I used bubble-wrap instead of polythene sheet, and it floated gently to the top making it dead easy to lift out without chucking water everywhere. I misjudged the water temp going in to  the tank just now, and lost 4 degrees C - I'm sure I'll get better at this, but if I had had livestock in there, would they have suffered? 

Co2 is getting bashed in - the drop checker (JBL - Clive's idea - ugly, but easy to read, thanks Clive) was still green this morning before the water change.

I only had four floaters when I did the first fill, which I thought was pretty good.  After a few attempts at replanting I gave up and chucked them.  As I've gone for very heavy planting (thanks Mr Starkey and others) it shouldn't matter.  There's a definite knack to planting with tweezers - with HC I soon realised I had to squeeze excess moisture out of the rockwool plug, then crimp the tweezer tips around it to make a compact missile that could be plunged into the substrate.  There's a fair bit of rockwool showing on my first HC plugs, but I'm sure it'll disappear underneath the carpet.

Hydrocotyle was a bugger to separate from the rockwool - it looks like it's grown from seed, as there's no split in the wool to help extract the plant.  I ended up wasting a fair bit, and what I did plant didn't seem to have much of a root structure.  Still it'll be getting all the nutrients, Co2 and light it needs - I'm sure some will survive.

EI - I'm dosing manually as I haven't got the digital timer for the dosing pump yet.  I'm not sure what daily water changes will do to EI, but I reckon I'm OK so long as I add a fresh daily dose after the water change but before the lights go on.

I'm also adding Nitrivec, as I've no mature media to kickstart my bacterial colony.  I'm a bit dubious about bacteria in a bottle, but it's worth a try.


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## George Farmer (22 Nov 2009)

Nice one, Paul.

A 4C drop in total tank temperature is quite significant but doubtful that it would do long-term harm to any fish/inverts.  Indeed, some species rely on a drop like that, typically caused by a large rainstorm, to trigger spawning.

The Nirtivic won't do any harm but it's not really necessary.  The ammonia leeching from the Aqua Soil and plants growth will help mature the filter too.


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## Mark Evans (22 Nov 2009)

paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> Hydrocotyle was a bugger to separate from the rockwool



i dont even bother trying to separate stems from rockwool any more.root structures are not vital to the setteling in process.

 just cut them off flush to the rock wool, or pull the whole thing out. i can separate 40 odd pots in about 5 minutes...and split into bunches.

way to go mate.


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## paul.in.kendal (22 Nov 2009)

It's interesting, Mark, how knackering the planting was.  I started with the HC, and that was a breeze - I thought "What's all the fuss about?".  By the time I was finishing up with the Vallis I was shattered.  But I'm sure I'll get quicker once I know how to handle the different plants.  I tried planting the hairgrass in minute little tufts, but it was impossible, so I quickly switched to cutting it into four or five decent sized plugs, which made it much easier.  

I'm a bit worried about any damage I might have done during planting, and whether I stripped off all the damaged parts beforehand, but time (and close observation) will tell.  The worst was Pogostemon - it seemed very brittle and made a horrible crunching sound in the tweezers, no matter how gentle I was.

Just sitting here now waiting for the lights to come on!


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## paul.in.kendal (29 Nov 2009)

DAY NINE

Right - everything seems to be going OK.  I've had some green water - not resolved yet, but 2x50% water changes today and yesterday have certainly helped:







I've brought the luminaire down a bit - now everything's pearling, not just the HC up on the rockwork:






Growth - the hairgrass has been growing steadily from the outset, as has the rotala, limnophila and especially the staurogyne.  Vallis growth is hard to judge, the HC up on rockwork grew as well as pearled, while the HC on the substrate seemed to be struggling - hopefully the more intense light well help that along.  The pogostemon helferi has worried me most, with no sign of growth, yet dying outer leaves being shed.  I'm hoping the revised lighting will help that too.

I've stopped dosing EI for the moment, until more vigorous growth kicks in.

Thanks for advice from a number of quarters, especially Graeme at TGM.


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## Mark Evans (29 Nov 2009)

paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> I've stopped dosing EI for the moment, until more vigorous growth kicks in.



interesting.


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## Garuf (29 Nov 2009)

Yeah, I can only expect algae galore.


----------



## Stu Worrall (29 Nov 2009)

saintly said:
			
		

> paul.in.kendal said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think paul is going down the ADA fert route of powersand special, AS then brighty K to start, same as with Andyhs kitchecn tank.  Im trying the same thing and hopefully I wont balls it up  (although I might as I replaced powersand with Aquacare and loads of root tabs so I'll see how it goes.)


----------



## andyh (30 Nov 2009)

stuworrall said:
			
		

> saintly said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Worked well for me.....just doing the same on my second tank.

ADA Amazonia, ADA Powersand special and dosing just Brighty K for approx 6 weeks and regular water changes at least 3 per week. I also used a mature filter. Then at 6 weeks started adding step one.

Cant take credit for it, its all Graeme Edwards master plan.


----------



## andyh (30 Nov 2009)

Paul, forgot to say love the tank! Really like the rock work! Keep the journal up.


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## viktorlantos (30 Nov 2009)

> Worked well for me.....just doing the same on my second tank.



using the same method all the time with succes. the only exception is i do this in the first 2 weeks only. then step 1 is comes in daily. after the 2nd week when Amano starts to add in the Amano shrimps too. So that might be important an important step to take care of the initial algae attacks. 

there was a step by step guide in one of the aquajournal. i found it to you guys and made a capture:
This was the Aqua Journal 162.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/viktorlantos/4146845882/
tagged with some info


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## paul.in.kendal (30 Nov 2009)

I'll not be using Brighty K, but adding potassium in powder form (Fluidsensor) in its place.  See Clive's comments on this here.  But all credit (notwithstanding Garuf's prediction of algal carnage!) goes to Graeme for this approach.

But if this all goes pear-shaped, it's nobody's fault but my own.  



			
				andyh said:
			
		

> Paul, forgot to say love the tank! Really like the rock work!


Thanks Andy.  I don't think I've commented on your kitchen tank (with zero previous experience I don't have much constructive to say), but I've got to tell you it's simply stunning - that photo including the view out the window captures the delights of planted aquaria in the home better than anything I've seen anywhere.

As an aside - I invited my significant other to watch the tank as I switched on the MH for a moment yesterday - as it started to glitter and glow I could see she finally 'got it' - I'm really chuffed.  

We've been moving furniture around in the bedroom (no, this isn't a euphemism for something saucier) and I commented that a north-facing tank-sized gap has become available, expecting a "No more tanks!" comment - and she said nowt.  So this could be progress...


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## Garuf (30 Nov 2009)

Hmmm, you could well get lucky since the ADA ferts range are essential a very very lean EI... As long as you're more observant with having less room for error you should be fine.


----------



## Graeme Edwards (1 Dec 2009)

andyh said:
			
		

> Cant take credit for it, its all Graeme Edwards master plan.



Thanks mate   



			
				paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> I'll not be using Brighty K, but adding potassium in powder form (Fluidsensor) in its place.  See Clive's comments on this here.  But all credit (notwithstanding Garuf's prediction of algal carnage!) goes to Graeme for this approach.



I hope it works for you Paul.


----------



## paul.in.kendal (1 Dec 2009)

> I hope it works for you Paul.



So do I - but if it doesn't I'll have learnt something, so it's win/win...


----------



## paul.in.kendal (1 Dec 2009)

DAY ELEVEN

I'm a bit concerned about - algae.

While some plants are growing healthily and vigorously (esp. Staurogyne, Rotala rotundifolia), others are not.

Some clumps of HC look fine:





But about 40 -50% is looking most unhappy - looks like filamentous algae to me:






and here (you an see it on the hairgrass here, too):






Even the Hydrocotyle verticillata, which is growing well, has thread algae:






Should I be trying to remove the algae, spot-dosing with easycarbo, binning the worst affected - any or all of these?  Am I right to assume at this early stage in a moderately lit set-up with plentiful CO2 and good flow this is down to the ammonia spike from the Aquasoil?

Yours

Fretful of Kendal


----------



## samc (1 Dec 2009)

looks great paul  

if possible i would chuck some shrimp in. they normally sort that algae out


----------



## andyh (1 Dec 2009)

Paul,

I experienced that with my HC its not a problem its just die back, i left it for a couple of weeks then gave it all a good prune and it all grew back super healthy. You have to expect some of the leaves etc wont survive. Also You dont know how the HC was grown b4 you bought it and it could be making the change fro emerged to immersed (think thats right way round)
Don't panic, it should be fine. Some of my HC looks like that in my new setup.


----------



## paul.in.kendal (2 Dec 2009)

Whew! Thanks for the reassurance Andy - now you know why I called this "Punishment of Luxury" - the Luxury was getting such a high-grade set-up; the Punishment is the nerve wracking process I'm going through now!   

Why anyone thought the best terms to describe plants growing out-of-water and in-water were 'emersed' and 'immersed', heaven only knows...


----------



## paul.in.kendal (2 Dec 2009)

One other thought (or fret) - I'm restricting lighting to 2x24w T5s for 6 hours at the moment - and I do mean 24w, not 54w.  Clive stresses the importance of concentrating on good flow, CO2 and nutrients, and I'm confident I've got those nailed. But 2x24w is less than 1wpg - am I being over-cautious on a 100cmLx45cmWx55cmH tank?


----------



## Stu Worrall (2 Dec 2009)

paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> One other thought (or fret) - I'm restricting lighting to 2x24w T5s for 6 hours at the moment - and I do mean 24w, not 54w.  Clive stresses the importance of concentrating on good flow, CO2 and nutrients, and I'm confident I've got those nailed. But 2x24w is less than 1wpg - am I being over-cautious on a 100cmLx45cmWx55cmH tank?


Ive been doing the same with mine paul.  I was running 2x24w for a week and i bumped up to 4x24w last night.  Im by no means an expert at this so dont take it as read that you should be doing the same!  Im going to see how mine goes on 96W this week and evaluate it and any growth/algae at the weekend.

hopefully someone with more knowledge will be along to advise you accordingly soon


----------



## paul.in.kendal (2 Dec 2009)

That's great Stu - I'll be watching Llyn Peninsula like a hawk for news on what impact your lighting change has.  My 70% water changes and filter floss are making an impact on the green water - I'm quietly hoping I've turned the corner on that one.  It's good to get things right, but even better to face challenges and resolve them!


----------



## mattyc (2 Dec 2009)

realy nice looking tank  , the HC should grow quite quick when it gets used to the water conditions (then you will want to get rid of it because it is a pain in the blahblahblahblah). with no animals in the tank you could bump up your doasing and co2 to help out the plants. i would change to water changing twice per week to try and make it a bit more stable, that should let the plants beat the algae.


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## paul.in.kendal (2 Dec 2009)

mattyc said:
			
		

> realy nice looking tank


Thanks Matty!


			
				mattyc said:
			
		

> ...the HC should grow quite quick when it gets used to the water conditions (then you will want to get rid of it because it is a pain in the blahblahblahblah).


I love pruning in my garden, so pain in the blahblahblahblah is fine by me.  Part of the reason for getting into planted tanks was to give my green fingers exercise when my winter garden is looking after itself.


----------



## Steve Smith (3 Dec 2009)

Looking great Paul


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## andyh (3 Dec 2009)

Hey Paul

You know how we where talking about HC melting, here is a pic of piece of mine which has done just that(if you look closely a large amount of the leaves had gone transparent), Shortly after this photo i  cut off all the dead stuff and am now waiting for new for new growth.






Interestingly, this was all bought from the same place why isnt all of it doing it?


----------



## paul.in.kendal (4 Dec 2009)

Thanks for that, Andy.  When you say you cut off all the dead stuff, did this leave some clumps completely devoid of leaves, and if so, did these grow back?  All my HC came from the same source, too, yet like you, some is fine and others not.  I wondered whether this was due to root damage caused to some clumps by my inexperienced (and therefore probably hamfisted) planting technique.  I have noticed that one flourishing clump wedged in the rockwork proceeded to go 'orrible when it floated free after a few days and I stuffed it back in the same place - did I damage the plant second time round?  :?:


----------



## Mark Evans (4 Dec 2009)

paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> whether this was due to root damage caused to some clumps by my inexperienced (and therefore probably hamfisted) planting technique.



not likely mate. HC is more hardy than people think. we plant without roots right?...individual method, so thats not the course. 

it's demanding of co2 ferts and lights IME. 

you'll always get die off of some kind. get rid of the bad ASAP.


----------



## paul.in.kendal (4 Dec 2009)

Aargh!  Came in from work today (Day Fourteen), pottering around, and realised it was quiet... too quiet.  The penny dropped - no friendly chuckle from the reactor! Drop checker blue, both dials on the regulator at zero.  I've been bashing the CO2 in, but after thirteen days this is ridiculous!

Immediately dosed with Easycarbo, swapped to a fresh 3kg cylinder, and whipped out the mankiest clumps of HC, as per Saintly above - they came up in nasty, soggy lumps.

Darlings, I've got to tell you this is one hell of an emotional roller-coaster - who needs drugs?!!


----------



## Mark Evans (4 Dec 2009)

paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> who needs drugs?!!



you by the sound of things.

mate, i feel for you, honestly. W/C, get co2 set up and make sure its bang on for the lights on.


----------



## paul.in.kendal (4 Dec 2009)

Aah, slight problem - the lights were on when I got home.  Didn't know if I should turn them off, so they're still on, but the DC is showing green now.  Can it get any worse?  Yeah, I thought so...


----------



## paul.in.kendal (12 Dec 2009)

DAY TWENTY-TWO ...and I'm still having trials and tribulations.  My filter has been quietly leaking, blowing some of the cabinet chipboard, which is a real pain.  The damage can't be seen when the doors are closed, but it's a real downer.  

I've removed the fine floss from the bottom of the filter and reinstalled the siporax.  I've restarted full ferts (instead of just K2SO4), but at slightly less than 50% of full EI levels (because my plant mass has been going down, not up!).  Lighting has been at 48w for six hours daily plus a 20 minute additional 'midday' burst of 150w MH for a few days now with no obvious ill-effects;  I'm upping the 150w boost to 40 minutes from today.  Been doing 1x60% water change every other day for a week now.

Algae - green water hasn't gone, but it's much diminished - I'm hoping as the set-up matures it'll cure itself.  Some hair algae about, especially on the HC and hairgrass - I'm hoping cycling will be completed fairly soon, so I can get some algae munchers in there.  Doing some Easycarbo spot-dosing, which doesn't seem to make much difference - although for all I know the algae could be much worse without it.

Plants - growth (which was never that strong) has tailed off generally - I'm hoping upping dosing and lights will reverse that trend.  Im guessing that I've been a bit over-cautious (less than 1wpg) with lights in a fairly deep tank - as I've now got a whole three weeks of experience (!) under my belt, I'm trusting I'll spot any adverse reaction to the beefed-up regime quickly. 

I've lost a good 60% of the HC so far - the remainder is looking a bit sorry for itself, too, with hair algae and die-back.  

Hydrocotyle has stopped growing, but only suffering very minor algal growth.  

Rotala has stopped growing, but looks healthy.

Pogostemon has had quite a bit of older leaf die-back, but what remains looks healthy, with virtually no algae.

Staurogyne - hitherto my strongest grower - has stopped growing, but looks healthy.  I'm intending to use this as my primary 'indicator' plant.

Vallis - doesn't seem to have done a thing since tank start-up.  Maybe a smidgeon of new growth from the base.

Hairgrass - no recent growth after initial burst.  That new growth looks healthy, but the original trimmed stuff has hosted quite a bit of algae.  This is the only algae that seems to have been knocked back by the Easycarbo.

Limnobium - older mature leaves have died off, but quite a few new plantlets have formed. Perhaps my best performer, especially since I put on the MH, which encourages me to increase the MH a little more.  This was always supposed to be a temporary resident to boost plant mass in the early days.  I like the way it settles in the vallis; I'll be keeping some in the tank longterm I reckon - it may be all that survives! (Only half-joking...)

Not much point in posting pics, as the only real change you'd see is - more substrate visible!


----------



## R9naldo (21 Dec 2009)

dont give up ! i think you have to change the output of your filter that green pipe whit many hols ! put just  a tube with 1 hole for a better current in the water !  good luck  !


----------



## paul.in.kendal (30 Dec 2009)

OK, after about six weeks I'm finally starting to coax some proper growth out of this.  My vallis is sending out runners and my pogostemon helferi is rooting into the substrate so I can remove older dieing leaves without it floating every time.  The HC is now growing really tiny immersed leaves, after the slightly larger emersed growth melted.  I was over-nervous about the melting, and unnecessarily chucked out a fair bit of the HC - you live and learn.

The nitrite level is sticking stubbornly at 0.1 ppm - so I'm stubbornly resisting the temptation to introduce shrimp or otos. I started testing nitrite with Aquarian dipstrips, which seemed to be totally useless.  Now I'm testing witha JBL testset, which at least appears to be more effective.

Despite the nitrite I've got a few snails developing - little conical-shelled thingies about 6mm long.

Still doing 60% water changes every other day, and now dosing leanish EI, with daily easycarbo spot dosed on algae.


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## daniel19831123 (31 Dec 2009)

Hey mate hang in there. The tank is nice looking and it's worth sticking till the very end. I had mine for 3 months now and I've suffered from staghorn, BGA, BBA, Cladophora and hair algae and now I'm just about to come out of the algae mess and have a breath of fresh air. Your sounds better than mine. I'll race you too the end to see who's tank fair better in the finale shot.


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## paul.in.kendal (1 Jan 2010)

WEEK SIX

I'm feeling increasingly confident about this, after weeks of uncertainty and worry.  I almost think I'm starting to get a 'feel' for planted aquaria! (Wait for the next crash...)

Just done my first-ever proper clean-up - scrubbing rocks, cleaning pipes, big water change.  All done without a hitch (thanks to good advice on here - ta all, esp. Flyfisherman).  Although it took rather longer than expected.  I was amazed how much algal growth there was on the rocks.  Did a first proper trim while I was about it.  Surprised how much everything had grown.  Vallis runners needed to be detached and removed to avoid encroaching on the staurogyne.  The staurogyne was trimmed quite hard, taking out a fair bit of algae-affected growth.  No trimming of rotala - I'm waiting for that to reach the surface.











The limnobium is a bit holey - would it be these snails?  Would they eat healthy growth, or only if it's ailing?


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## daniel19831123 (2 Jan 2010)

I find that when my frogbit got caught in the current and lodge themselve between filter pipes and their leaves get submerged for a period of time, their leaves will die off. It also happens when it get tipped over for any reason. It will try to correct it's own position but the leave will rot off like the one you have in the picture. They normally throw off plantlets that grow upwards prior to that so the plant don't just die off. However, by getting rid of the bad leaves and keeping them upright will prevent this from happening.

I also submerged my outlet from my filter to a lot more than I used to do as I find that this plant don't do well in strong currents. Their long roots got in the way and they'll get lodge somewhere.


----------



## paul.in.kendal (2 Jan 2010)

Aah, that makes sense Daniel.  I'll keep an eye on them and see if it's the leaves that go under that die off.  Thanks.


----------



## TBRO (2 Jan 2010)

I agree with Daniel. The roots of the frogbit are also a good weather vane of your water quality. In the initial period, during the ammonia spike, the fine hairs on the roots disappear and the roots shorten to little stumps. Once establidhed the roots can get to 20 cm. When it gets going you'll be throwing buckets of the stuff out ! 

Regards, Tom


----------



## paul.in.kendal (3 Jan 2010)

That's really interesting, Tom.  I'd noticed that the roots were getting much much longer (the longest main roots are already over 10cms) and much hairier too.  Now I know why! 

As an aside - I'm not putting any fish in yet, and I'm wondering whether I should be putting in the occasional pinch of fish food, to keep trickling ammonia into the system.  Is this necessary, or will I get enough ammonia off decaying plant matter to keep the filter cycle progressing?


----------



## aaronnorth (3 Jan 2010)

There are two ways you can go with cycling.

Add 5ppm amonia every day (fishless cycle)

or the other way is a silent cycle by which you should now add about 6 fish (depends on size) and carry out 50% water changes a minimum of 3 times per week.

If you add any ammonia now you will risk algae attacking.

The ammonia being produced by rotting plant matter won't be helping the bacteria much as there is hardly any there to get a good sze colony going,
Thanks, Aaron


----------



## paul.in.kendal (3 Jan 2010)

Thanks Aaron - I did wonder how much (or rather how little) ammonia I'd get of decaying plant metter.  I've just done another nitrite test and, surprise surprise, it's down to between 0.025 and zero ppm.  So I reckon I should get some otocinclus in there (probably five).  I'd also like to put some shrimp in at the same time.  Dunno whether to go for amano or crystal reds.  I'll probably buy mail order, as the nearest decent fish shop is up in Penrith - and I'm not even sure how good they are.  Wll otos or shrimp uproot anything - for example rather immature and relatively poorly rooted young plants?


----------



## Dolly Sprint 16v (3 Jan 2010)

paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> I'll probably buy mail order, as the nearest decent fish shop is up in Penrith - and I'm not even sure how good they are.  Wll otos or shrimp uproot anything - for example rather immature and relatively poorly rooted young plants?



Paul

Otto's are more of a clean up crew and mainly stay on the plant leafs hoovering, occasionly going on the bottom to hoover - they are not a gravel mover. If you are after more variety of fish have a look a Houghton Hall Garden Centre Carlisle get of a J44 M6 and head towards Newcastle, as the motorway bends around just before J44 you can see it on your right hand side.

Too get your tank fish cycled why not buy some cheap neon tetra's - some thing cheap and cheerful.  

Regards
Paul.


----------



## aaronnorth (4 Jan 2010)

stay away from loaches & plecs and your plants will stay put. 
Mind you I think zebra loaches were the first fish I introduced without any problems.


----------



## a1Matt (4 Jan 2010)

when buying Oto's check that they have fat bellies. If the bellies are caving in I would avoid buying them. Also acclimatise them really slowly. I drip acclimatise (google those 2 words to find out more  ) mine for an hour. Probably overkill but I was getting some dying within a few days before doing this.  Now they settle in fine.


----------



## andyh (4 Jan 2010)

a1Matt said:
			
		

> when buying Oto's check that they have fat bellies. If the bellies are caving in I would avoid buying them. Also acclimatise them really slowly. I drip acclimatise (google those 2 words to find out more  ) mine for an hour. Probably overkill but I was getting some dying within a few days before doing this.  Now they settle in fine.




100% support what A1matt is saying above, another good tip is to get a few at once. My ottos shoal really well, they all hang together in the tank and appear to very happy when surrounded by their own. So buy 6, to get you going! 

p.s Fat bellies are a must! If not my wife would of never married/chosen me!


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## paul.in.kendal (9 Jan 2010)

I'm now drip acclimatising six Otocinclus Vestitus purchased from North Lakes Aquatics in Penrith (Â£9.18).  My second visit there, it looks like a good shop to me - although as a newbie to fishkeeping I don't really trust my own judgement too highly.  The Otos look plump, healthy and active, and about 3cms long.  I guess I wont be seeing them for a while once they disappear into the tank.

I also got 12 cherry shrimp.  Do these need to be carefully acclimatised, too?  They're currently in the dark in an insulated bag - been there for over two hours now.

EDIT: That nice chap Aaron North has just answered this (yes, I should acclimatise cherries) on another thread.  So I've just released the otos and started drip acclimatising the shrimp.


----------



## paul.in.kendal (9 Jan 2010)

Here's one of the six otos.  Unfortunately the only reason I could get a half-decent picture is that he's sitting very still right at the front of the tank.  The others are all exploring, as are the cherries, but I'm concerned this one's just not happy.  Only time will tell...


----------



## andyh (10 Jan 2010)

paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> Here's one of the six otos.  Unfortunately the only reason I could get a half-decent picture is that he's sitting very still right at the front of the tank.  The others are all exploring, as are the cherries, but I'm concerned this one's just not happy.  Only time will tell...



Hey Paul

Wouldn't worry! Ottos can lie in the same place for long periods of time. Wait until they start doing there mad dashes, when spooked they dart around the tank as fast as they can banging into things  

Your ten cherries will soon become many, generally to get cherry shrimp to bread all you need to do is add water


----------



## a1Matt (10 Jan 2010)

andyh said:
			
		

> Wouldn't worry! Ottos can lie in the same place for long periods of time. Wait until they start doing there mad dashes, when spooked they dart around the tank as fast as they can banging into things



+1!

Sometimes I wonder if Otos only know two speeds. standstill and full pelt   
Of the planted tank 'clean up crew' type of fauna they are my favourites. 

Mine quite like to eat organic cucumber (non organic they eat the middle only and leave the skin). That is just one of the many veggies you can feed them.


----------



## paul.in.kendal (11 Jan 2010)

Thanks people - the otos seem to have settled in fine.  I've now seen all six charging around together, and they all look healthy and happy.  During the photoperiod yesterday there was a fair bit of 'gulping' going on, so I've tweaked down the bubble rate and slightly reduced the time period for co2 being  on, in the hope they're more comfortable today.


----------



## Dolly Sprint 16v (12 Jan 2010)

Paul
Have you sorted you leak yet.

Paul.


----------



## paul.in.kendal (12 Jan 2010)

Flyfisherman said:
			
		

> Paul
> Have you sorted you leak yet.


Hi Paul - yes, I've been cleaning and greasing the seals each time I open the filter (which is rarely, as it's so massive), and that has stopped it leaking entirely.  It seems the leak was down to my lack of experience, rather than gear failure.


----------



## tel (19 Jan 2010)

Hey Paul, I have really enjoyed reading through your Journal and seeing how it has developed. 
Looking forward to the next update. cheers.


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## paul.in.kendal (20 Jan 2010)

tel said:
			
		

> Hey Paul, I have really enjoyed reading through your Journal and seeing how it has developed.
> Looking forward to the next update. cheers.


Glad to hear it, Tel.

I can tell you I 've had a little bloom of hair algae, probably down to a combination of adjustments to the Co2 input and an ammonia spike from the otos.  That now seems to be settling down.  

Although my HC finally appears to be settling in - it's just about starting to grow sideways - the foreground is pretty denuded in places.  I'm starting to think about introducing other plants to fill some gaps - I'd like some anubias barteri nana 'Petite' (aka 'Bonsai'), and perhaps some moss.  But I won't be making a rush decision - if you've read this journal you'll know I'm one hell of a slowcoach when it comes to taking the plunge!

I will try and get some pics up - it's all too easy to only take pictures when stuff looks good and skip "warts'n'all" shots of it when things are proving difficult!


----------



## andyh (20 Jan 2010)

Paul

Keep it coming the warts and all stuff is what its all about, if its all perfect we would only suspect fowl play!    
I have really enjoyed your journal and your deep thoughts   To many people post just the glory shots! 

Stick with the HC its worth it in the end.

What about some more pics :?: 

 I can recommend the anubias barteri nana 'Petite' (aka 'Bonsai'), i have some in mine and its really nice. Some people suggested its a slower grower. I have had no problems, new leaves every week.

Just a quick final observation, I doubt the couple of ottos you added to your volume of water contributed to the ammonia/Hair Algae.  I would blame CO2 distribution and nutrient flow myself. I have heard amano shrimps like to eat it. Although you have cherries i am sure they will have a go.


----------



## paul.in.kendal (21 Jan 2010)

andyh said:
			
		

> Just a quick final observation, I doubt the couple of ottos you added to your volume of water contributed to the ammonia/Hair Algae.  I would blame CO2 distribution and nutrient flow myself. I have heard amano shrimps like to eat it. Although you have cherries i am sure they will have a go.


Interesting, Andy.  I find it hard to believe I've got problems with either of those - although I'm not doubting your expertise, of course - how could I?!  I wonder whether my shrimp have been pegging out - I only ever see one or two at a time.  Sometimes hard to believe there are twelve in there. 

These pictures might shed more light - then again...

'orrible HC





"The Horror, the Horror!"





But my Vallis is bouncing around:





Fairly healthy Pogostemon Helferi, Staurogyne and Hydrocotyle verticillata:















Here's my Limnobium from below.  It was badly knocked back when the water quality went awry, but it's starting to regrow. The bubbles are trapped beneath an oily film - presumably a symptom of the Limnobium decaying.  The bubbles are a mixture of pearled oxygen and Co2 not totally dissolving in the reactor like it used to - another thing that has me scratching my head...





This is the overtank/intank element of the Tunze Osmolator:





And here's the regulator (top right):





Cabinet set-up - the white container is the reservoir for the Osmolator (daft name) - far left is the ferts all-in-one, still being dosed daily by hand (by syringe, actually): 





FTS - look at all that bare substrate - and to think I started off with fourteen pots of HC...


----------



## LondonDragon (21 Jan 2010)

I that happen with my tank when I was too busy to take care of it, and plants were suffering the same way.

I thought I was dosing enough CO2 and ferts in there but still problems, I started adding 10ml a day of EasyCarbo and the surface scum went away, the algae disappeared, even growing HC which for me is a miracle.

I did try increasing the CO2 a few times, but then was close to killing the fish, so resulted to EC and that did the trick, could be worth a shot.


----------



## paul.in.kendal (22 Jan 2010)

Now there's a thing, Paulo - I've been daily spot-dosing 3ml of Easycarbo to knock back the algae, and it has been working to an extent.  I've not been totally regular with this, but perhaps I should be, and perhaps I should up the amount?  Were you spot-dosing, or just chucking it in?

I'm sure my Co2 is near the max - I've backed it off just enough to stop the otos gulping, but I don't know how the harlequin rasboras will find it once I start introducing them. Anyway I'm not putting any more livestock in until I'm happy the plants have re-stabilised.

I'll review my EI dosing too - I've assumed I'm putting in plenty, as my photoperiod on full lights (c. 4wpg) is only for a few hours, and biomass is not really very high yet. 

Having voiced concern about my shrimp, I decided to investigate.  I crept in last night after lights-out with a torch and they were all out and about, happy as Larry.


----------



## Steve Smith (22 Jan 2010)

paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> I crept in last night after lights-out with a torch and they were all out and about, happy as Larry.



Just made me think: "Sshhhh!  I'm hunting Waaabits!"


----------



## andyh (22 Jan 2010)

funnily enough steve....

I had visions of paul crawlin in on hands and knees in full black stealth suit etc


----------



## LondonDragon (22 Jan 2010)

paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> Now there's a thing, Paulo - I've been daily spot-dosing 3ml of Easycarbo to knock back the algae, and it has been working to an extent.  I've not been totally regular with this, but perhaps I should be, and perhaps I should up the amount?  Were you spot-dosing, or just chucking it in?


I just chuck it in, my tank is only a 125l also, so I would recommend you start with 10ml and up if necessary. After a water change I always dose 15-20ml.


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## andyh (22 Jan 2010)

I daily dose easy carbo in both my tanks, even though i have full co2 systems on both.

To give you an idea, i dose 3ml per day on my 60l, and i breed Crystal red shrimp successfully in that tank. 
Its not spot dosed, just put straight in to the tank.

You dosing 3ml on a 200l, so i would support what Paulo is saying. You can dose more than 3ml with no problems. I got my lead from Graeme at TGM.


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## paul.in.kendal (22 Jan 2010)

LondonDragon said:
			
		

> I just chuck it in, my tank is only a 125l also, so I would recommend you start with 10ml and up if necessary. After a water change I always dose 15-20ml.


Right, I'll get that sorted too. Thanks.


			
				andyh said:
			
		

> I had visions of paul crawlin in on hands and knees in full black stealth suit


Sounds naughty. Glad the missus doesn't read this...


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## LondonDragon (22 Jan 2010)

Yep I always find that dosing just CO2 is not enough in my tank, even when I pump it up to levels that the fish start struggling a little, so to compensate I dose EC which does not affect the fish, kills the algae and gives you a bigger margin for error on the CO2 dosing.


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## hydrophyte (23 Jan 2010)

paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> andyh said:
> 
> 
> 
> >



This is a very nice setup. I like that _Staurogyne_ very much.


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## paul.in.kendal (23 Jan 2010)

hydrophyte said:
			
		

> paul.in.kendal said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's very kind - thanks very much indeed!

To be honest , although I really love it as a plant, I'm not totally convinced my unconventional positioning of the staurogyne works as well as it might.  In the flesh, it's fine, as people engage with a tank from lots of different angles, rather than just foursquare like an FTS. I'll be interested to see how it develops over time.

The Hairgrass isn't doing it for me at the moment.  Scruffy, scrappy, curling in all directions, lacking much colour and creating a right mess when trimmed, its continued presence is very much under review.  If it fills out into a nice regular shag-pile carpet, it'll stay.  Otherwise...

I've just done a major clean and prune.  I gave the rotala a fairly savage hack back.  Although it hadn't reached the surface (as approved), it was growing thick and strong, so I thought it was ripe for it.  I'm starting to see how well it works positioned behind the rocks - all those scruffy lower bits out of sight.  Nice call, Dan C!

Basic maintenance is starting to get easier.  First time I stripped down the pipework etc. for a  proper clean I got in a right mess repriming the filter (the 2180 has two inlets).  Jim at TGM had recommended at the outset using a pump to prime, and I was faffing around moving it from one inlet pipe to the other, splashing water out of the refilled tank and getting nowhere fast.  This time, after rereading my Eheim manual, I reprimed with the tank two-thirds full and simply stuck my thumb over the end of one inlet pipe while holding the pump on the end of the other one - much simpler!  

I know that may sound blindingly obvious to some of you, but trust me, I've still got a lot of catching up to do on the very basic stuff.

The otos seem to really love it when the biofilm on the glass is disturbed.  Since the clean up they've been charging round in a gang, obviously enjoying the clean water and seemingly spoilt for choice on what to munch on next.  What lovely, characterful and helpful fish!


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## Mark Evans (23 Jan 2010)

paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> I gave the rotala a fairly savage hack back. Although it hadn't reached the surface (as approved)



what we all must take into consideration here is.....

firstly, if your tank is 60cm tall, do you wait until it reaches the top?.....

or if you have a nano which is only 20cm tall, do you wait for it to reach the top?.....or grow out the tank until it's 60cm tall   

the 'reaching the top' thing is a guide line. the taller the tank, the less you wait before trimming. your looking for good strong (thick stem) before trimming   

man, you need to persist with this tank. the hardscape and over all impression is amazing.

look at co2 and ferts. up both! your plant are crying out by the looks of things.


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## paul.in.kendal (23 Jan 2010)

Blimey Mark - I don't know what to say! You're too kind.  I've got to say I've been very happy with the hardscape right from the start.  In part it's the result of lots of good UKAPS advice - most notably not to rush it.  I've always been comfortable taking advice from people who know more about something than me (and there's a lot of those on here!) so, for example, ramping up the substrate higher and higher was definitely good advice, I think.

I've just got off my blahblahblahblah and put an extra dollop of ferts in - I'd already put in a bigger than usual dose of Easycarbo right after the waterchange.

The tank's 55cm tall, not 60, but as you suggest I was taking that extra height into account.  And the stems were good and thick - noticeably different from when they first went in.

Thanks again - I'm really very chuffed!


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## aaronnorth (24 Jan 2010)

when you get the plant health back up, his tank will look stunning  

CO2 looks to be the problem, move the DC around the tank and get some different readings, then adjust accordingly.


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## paul.in.kendal (24 Jan 2010)

aaronnorth said:
			
		

> when you get the plant health back up, his tank will look stunning
> 
> CO2 looks to be the problem, move the DC around the tank and get some different readings, then adjust accordingly.


Thanks Aaron.  For my very first tank, I've got to tell you it already looks stunning to me!   I was slack-jawed when the MH came on for the first time and the whole thing started glittering.  Both me and my other half both spend a ton of time just gawping at it. What a brilliant hobby!

As for the HC: I've been moving the DC around, and Co2 distribution and intensity does seem good.  With no previous experience, I have to fall back on getting the basics right and trusting that that ensures I don't go too far wrong.  So for me it's a very big filter, a reactor, a spray bar all along the back wall, ALL the HC swaying in the current and the bubble rate just below the level at which the otos start gasping.  And from yesterday I started upping the daily Easycarbo dose to 10ml, with 20ml on waterchange days.  Now it's a case of wait and see.  As Saintly says in another thread, I'm probably overthinking it.

Thanks again for all the valuable input.


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## paul.in.kendal (31 Jan 2010)

Quick update. Ten weeks old, and I'm a happy bunny.  Saintly's advice to look to my ferts and CO2 is paying off.  I was nervous of upping my bubble rate, as I think I've got it just below fish-gasping levels.  So I increased Easycarbo dosing to 10ml per day, 20ml on water-change day.  Ferts are up by 50%, and after just a week there's been a definite improvement.  HC is looking loads healthier, for sure.  

I had to do a major trim on the staurogyne, as it was quite heavily algaed, but it's coming back nicely.  Just added 10 harlequin rasbora and 12 more cherry shrimp. Planted 5 pots of Anubias Barteri Nana 'Bonsai'.

Photos in a day or two.

Once again I must sincerely thank the UKAPS community for timely advice and info.  Saintly, I really appreciate your suggestion on dosings, without it I'd be tearing my hair out by now.  And the general level of support from experienced hobbyists (like Saintly, Aaron and others) available on here when things go a bit pear-shaped is immensely reassuring.


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## paul.in.kendal (1 Feb 2010)

Some images - 


























That last image was reasonably easy to get (even though it's out of focus), as the harlequins are staying put, gulping for air in the corner of the tank with least surface movement.  

This is a bit of a worry.  When the otos first went in they did the same. I knocked back the CO2 a bit and they've not done it since.  Now they just sit quietly by one of the inlets when the CO2 is on.  I don't really want to reduce the CO2 further if I can help it - I'll have to raise the luminaire further if I do, for sure.  But obviously I don't want the fish to be uncomfortable.

I've noticed today they're still gulping, but not so much.  It's set me (over)thinking.  Do fish take time to adjust to highly carbonated water?  Does their oxygen requirement increase due to more vigorous swimming, when they're transferred from relatively sluggish shop tanks to high flow planted tanks?  Are they well-adapted to survive in poorly oxygenated water by gulping - after all, they must find themselves in oxygen starved puddles in the wild at times? Is gulping a sign of distress - mine have good colour, after all?

Or am I just making excuses for myself, and should I just bite the bullet and reduce CO2 a bit further?


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (1 Feb 2010)

Paul

You will probably find that its the transfer from a highly rich oxygenated water to semi rich oxygenated water/ high Co2 levels, usually the tanks in fish shops are high in oxygenated water due to the vast quantity of fish that are in those little glass boxes, give them time to settle in - if it helps tweek the Co2 levels (lower) or distrub the water surface more. 

Regards
paul.


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## paul.in.kendal (1 Feb 2010)

Thanks Paul - that's really, really helpful.  And fairly obvious when I think about those furiously bubbling airstones in shops!  My conscience got the better of me and I tweaked down the CO2 shortly after that last post - I knew if I was asking the question I probably knew the right answer!  Thanks again.


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (1 Feb 2010)

Paul

It just about getting the right levels of o2 v co2 - plants consume co2 and give out o2 and vice versa for the fish - so the more fish you have in the tank the smaller the quantity of injected co2 required, it might just be 0.5 or 1 bps adjustments (very minute).

I got my levels slightly wrong in my little tank and I had my otto's doing death rolls - luckly I was at home and spotted them rolling and I mean rolling, co2 off, 50% water change and twist my spray bar up to distrub the water all night / part of the day to remove all the residual gas from the water, reset the bps the following day, everything is fine now.

Regards
paul.


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## chilled84 (1 Feb 2010)

Hat off to the p helferi, Ive always dreamed of growing it like that! I will one day!


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## LondonDragon (2 Feb 2010)

Tank is finally taking shape Paul, glad you got things back on track, I always increase the CO2 and ferts when I see problems, and also dose the EC to avoid carbon deficiencies and kill that dreaded algae, once you have everything in track and your CO2 is high enough you can ease off on the EC.


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## paul.in.kendal (3 Feb 2010)

"Back on track"?  I hope so, Paulo, but I'm sure I'll have a few lurches in the wrong direction before this is all properly grown in.  But I learn more from stuff going wrong and having to correct it, rather than things going fine.


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## andyh (15 Feb 2010)

How's it going?  :?: 

You have been quiet?


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## paul.in.kendal (16 Feb 2010)

andyh said:
			
		

> How's it going?  :?:
> 
> You have been quiet?


Yes, I have been, haven't I?  

I'm still plugging away at this.  I've taken out a fair bit of the hairgrass, and added some Anubias nana 'Bonsai'.  The original clumps of hairgrass I planted were badly algaed, and didn't show any signs of recovery.  When I pulled them out, of course a necklace of new plantlets came up with them, which I could have separated and replanted.  But to be honest, the hairgrass did seem a bit lost in such a relatively large tank.  The Anubias has been pegged down to the substrate with garden wire, plus a few clumps inserted into crevices in the rocks, using garden wire as sprung chocks.  It seems to be fine, although a few damaged leaves are dying back.  The rotala is starting to romp away again after the first prune a week or two back.  The vallis is growing strongly, despite my soft water and Easycarbo use.  The pogostemon helferi is healthy too, with transplanted rosettes taking and growing away readily.

My HC, which was rallying strongly, has taken a turn for the worse again.  I'm keeping CO2 as high as I dare, I've raised the luminaire a bit more, and I'm keeping the fertiliser dosing high. Not sure why the HC went off the boil, but could it be over-enthusiastic fish-feeding?  I've the double challenge of keeping fish for the first time, as well as the plants, so I've been trying to sort out a workable feeding routine for the fish, as well as getting my head round plant husbandry.  

In experimenting with different fish-feeds, I've used an automated in-tank brine shrimp hatchery, which seems to work fine, although it's ugly and noisy.  I'll use it occasionally, when I know there's no-one likely to see the tank for a day or two (apart from me and the missus, that is!)

And I've added some Purigen to the filter, to see if it clarifies the water further - only just gone in, so the jury's out on this one for now.

That's it for now, everything is adding to my knowledge and understanding - I'm sure I'll reap the rewards in time, whether on this tank or a future one.

Thanks for asking, BTW!


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## andyh (16 Feb 2010)

Hey Paul 

Sounds like you have been busy!

One question, you say you have raised your luminaire a bit more, whats your reason for doing that? HC loves two things in my experience light and CO2. 

With feeding fish everybody has there own method, and own brand they use. Cheap foods tend to add oily scum to the water and i would rather feed on the lighter side. Rather than big feeds.

We need more pics! 

Andy


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## paul.in.kendal (17 Feb 2010)

I raised the luminaire to try to slow down the algal growth - the HC had already stalled a bit, so I knew it wasn't suffering from lack of light beforehand.  I've got 198 watts over this.  It's now raised to 40cms above the water surface, making it 85cms from luminaire to the HC itself.

Oily scum? Check!  I've had it before, from plant breakdown, but I can see I'm getting it a bit off the fishfood now.  The culprit seems to be the Tetramin flake - is that a cheapie? Maybe I just need to be a bit less generous with it.  

I've just noticed that one of the clumps of anubias is breaking down badly, so I might have to lift and chuck that.  The remainder looks good, with new growth showing already, backing up Saintly's advice that, given good conditions, it's not such a slow grower.

I've got my CO2 right on the limit.  The fish sit quietly in what I guess is the least carbon-concentrated part of the tank about three hours after the solenoid swiches it on - they don't gulp any more, but they're clearly not as active as at other times.  I don't really know if they're in discomfort, but I find it hard to reduce the CO2 flow fractionally - it seems to be a bit 'all or nothing'.  The regulator pressure is quite high (2.2 bar).  I'm wondering if it'd be more controllable if I dropped this a bit.  I've got an Aqua Medic reg, which is described as fixed pressiure, so I guess it's not adjustable. Just got to develop sensitive fingers, I suppose.

I'll put some more pics up soon. Thanks for the interest!


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (17 Feb 2010)

Paul.

Is your aqua medic reg like this one 

http://www.aqua-medic.com/regulator.shtml 

if it is you should be able to achieve fine adjustment with this.

Regards
paul.


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## Stu Worrall (17 Feb 2010)

have you got the 198w on all day paul?


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## paul.in.kendal (18 Feb 2010)

Yup, That's the reg, Paul.  And no Stu - I'm not at home so I don't know the exact timings, but I have 48w of T5 on from about 5pm to 10.30pm with the 150w MH starting at 6pm and going off at 10pm - roughly.  Like you, I'm hooked on the light quality and shimmer the MH gives out.


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## Stu Worrall (18 Feb 2010)

paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> Yup, That's the reg, Paul.  And no Stu - I'm not at home so I don't know the exact timings, but I have 48w of T5 on from about 5pm to 10.30pm with the 150w MH starting at 6pm and going off at 10pm - roughly.  Like you, I'm hooked on the light quality and shimmer the MH gives out.



Usually the mid burst is a bit shorter than that with a few hours of less light either side of it. it could be that you 198w for the 4 ish hours is too much for the system.

might be worth you lowering your light output if you're getting algae issues and your flow and co2 are maxed out.  When i had algage probs on my rio125 i halved the light from 96w to 48w and uppped the co2 which worked a treat. when it was under control i put the lights back up and it was ok. (increased the co2 to cope too)

In your case you could do a few things

Run the 150w for the whole time but higher up on the hanger and turn off t5's (good for the HC)
run the 48w for the whole time with the light close to the surface (still with lots of c02) - not sure on the HC for this.


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## andyh (18 Feb 2010)

Paul

FYI both my CO2 regs are set at 1.7bar and your seems quite high at 2.2bar working pressure, if you can reduce the working pressure you should find it easier to adjust your bubble rate.

If you can adjust it like Flyfisherman suggests above, it should make it easier.


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## bazz (19 Feb 2010)

paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> Yup, That's the reg, Paul.  And no Stu - I'm not at home so I don't know the exact timings, but I have 48w of T5 on from about 5pm to 10.30pm with the 150w MH starting at 6pm and going off at 10pm - roughly.  Like you, I'm hooked on the light quality and shimmer the MH gives out.



hi paul,
like you, i have my main lights running from 5 to 10.30pm. i also have bba, and while its reasonably under control (grow 3 leaves, cut 1 off), its still there and rears its ugly head as soon as i increase the light intensity. however, i was reading a post last night just a page back from zig, who recommends a minimum 8 hour photoperiod for a healthy biotope (especially a mature one), and its left me wondering if i'm using too much light and too short a photoperiod, so i'm going to try running just 2 x 39w t5ho's instead of 3 x 39w and 1 x 24w for an 8 hour period.
thoughts on this anyone?
will let you know my results in a few weeks time!


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## paul.in.kendal (25 Feb 2010)

OK, here's some Week Thirteen pictures:







Here you can see how the HC still struggles:






Here you can see how I've placed the Anubias Bonsai in nooks and crevices to imitate how vegetation takes advantage of drainage channels in rock:






Here's the Limnophila looking healthy and vigorous:






Hopefully in that first shot you can see how the rotala has grown back strongly after the first trim.  I'm really pleased with it.  It'll be getting a second trim in a week or two at this rate.


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## LondonDragon (25 Feb 2010)

Looking good Paul, looks like you got it back on track after all  
Just seems that HC as seen better days, if it doesn't take off like it never does for me in 4 attempts, try some glosso that would look great as a carpet in that tank, would just mean a few more trims than the HC.


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## paul.in.kendal (26 Feb 2010)

Cor, your glosso carpet looks ace, Paulo.  I think I'll give it a go.  TBH, I'm losing patience with the HC - and my middle name's patience!  Some bits have grown strongly only to die off, then other bits have done the same.  The only thing bugging me is not knowing why it won't grow properly!  Same with the hairgrass - but at least with that I don't think it looks right, so I've got a valid reason to chuck it.  Still I suppose with both I can always come back to them and try again - perhaps in a nano...

I'm also going to revisit my EI calculations, to make sure I'm not still dosing a bit lean.


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## andyh (26 Feb 2010)

go glosso!!! it will fill that area in no time!

In fact if you want i have 1 pot of tropica Glosso which i didnt use in my dragon beach scape, and you can have it for Â£3 posted!

Let me know!

Andy


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## paul.in.kendal (26 Feb 2010)

Ooh! Yes please!  I'll PM you.


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## Steve Smith (26 Feb 2010)

Could it be a flow issue with your HC?  I've never had success with HC.


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## paul.in.kendal (26 Feb 2010)

I don't think so, Steve.  I've got a whopping great Eheim and a spraybar along the back wall, as recommended by Clive, and the HC (or what's left of it...) sways gently in the flow.  But thanks for the suggestion - I'm stumped!


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## andyh (26 Feb 2010)

my personal view of HC, based purely on my experience growing it in my tanks is that it likes;
high light, high CO2 and a nutrient rich substrate.

In my tank, the HC that is directly under the lights 'direct spot/beam, grows much better. Than those bits just a few inches away. 

What interests me is that you have plenty of light, and good substrate and a pressurized CO2 system.

so why aint it growing?    :?:

Just a thought: I did struggle for a while though as i wasn't actually getting the CO2 flow down to the HC even though i had good flow. Had to play around with my diffuser and powerhead.


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## paul.in.kendal (26 Feb 2010)

It's really interesting.  I ran out of ferts this morning - I've been dosing 75ml of homebrewed all-in-one daily - today I only had 50ml to put in.  Came home this evening to evidence of plants starting to complain - limnophila looking decidedly unhappy and a telltale oily scum with bubbles on the surface.  This is exactly what I had when Saintly suggested I upped my ferts, which I did to good effect.  I find it extraordinary that the plants can react so fast - if that is actually what's happening.

I've just sat down and carefully recalculated my EI dosing, and I reckon I was indeed dosing a bit lean anyway.  So today's new batch will be revised upwards, and we'll see what happens.

Never mind AndyH being hooked when his first tank is so spectacularly successful - I'm hooked even though mine keeps on going wrong!


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## Mark Evans (27 Feb 2010)

paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> This is exactly what I had when Saintly suggested I upped my ferts, which I did to good effect. I find it extraordinary that the plants can react so fast - if that is actually what's happening.



I 'read' my tanks, rather than looking at the science, and testing.Of course, we need to know the basics of the science side of things, but for me, i'm not into that too much.

By looking at our/my tanks, I can instantly tell something is wrong! even if the uneducated (my wife etc) cant see a difference. i look for the 'tell tale' plants to let me know if something is wrong. Plants such as HC, HM umbrosum, in my tanks are give away plants. If there showing signs of poor growth, i do something about it.

I'm glad the additional dosing helped. Usually, over night, plants will respond to an increase in ferts. Your next step is to adjust co2 to match the fert increase.

I'm finding it rather strange your HC and grass aren't growing. It's responding badly to something, maybe, the more it dies, the more ammonia it leaches thus killing the surrounding HC? 

What's your W/C regime?


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## paul.in.kendal (28 Feb 2010)

I change 50% every week.  I still reckon my CO2 is high enough - the fish tend to congregate in the vallis at peak times, presumably because that's giving out most oxygen.  My biggest problem is lack of general fishkeeping experience.  It means, for example, that I don't know whether I'm overfeeding, which would increase the ammonia.  

Still, I'm learning.  I can certainly now see that the key to good husbandry is close, frequent observation - the limnobium certainly seems to work as an excellent indicator plant for me.


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## Nick16 (28 Feb 2010)

feeding is simple. 

turn off filters and koralias (so no flow)

put a small pinch of food on the surface, wait for fish to eat it all, then add another small pinch. keep doing this until they stop the frenzy and become less interested. that way you arent placing a hugle lump in in one go. stopping the flow means its not blasted around the tank and hidden in all the plants where it rots. 

lastly, it normally takes the fish a few seconds to realise there is food (in a large tank anyway) so by only putting a little bit in, its not a problem if some sinks. if you put a huge load in, most of it has sunk or got caught somewhere before it can be consumed becuase most fish will go for food thats on the surface not nearing the bottom. 

BUT: another advantage of having top feeding fish like livebearers, middle feeding ones like barbs and harlequins and some lower feeding fish that like to 'snoop' around the bottom of the tank.


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## andyh (13 Mar 2010)

So come one then Paul, how did you get on with the Glosso?

Andy


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## paul.in.kendal (13 Mar 2010)

Fine, fine, ta very much!  I split it into tiny clumps and seeded the desired area last weekend - it all seems fine and there's some initial growth evident.  I'll post up a picture in a while.  I've one remaining clump of HC in the left hand corner of the tank, the one place it seemed to be doing fine in partnership with some hydrocotyle.  

Apart from that, my very nice local friendly CO2 merchant loaned me a 2kg FE (free of charge!) when I forgot to get either of my two 3kgs refilled in good time   .  The resulting hiatus in CO2 dosing caused a bit of die-back of the limnobium, but everything's back in order now.  And I've just done a second trim of the rotala.

Photos later over the weekend.


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## paul.in.kendal (20 Mar 2010)

OK, so I failed to post those promised pics, but with good reason.  My filter (Eheim 2180 Thermo) started leaking again- badly last weekend.  After much flapping (and a lot of water on the carpet), I got it working again, sat in a big bucket.  The problem seemed to be the hose connector leaking into the head.  The bummer was that this was invisible for 36 hours or so, until the head had filled up and it started overflowing into the cabinet.  My missus spotted it, casually pointing to the dark patch expanding under the cabinet!

Of course, I should have recognised something was wrong in that the head always had a fair bit of water in it everytime I did a clean. But my total lack of experience meant the penny didn't really drop that it isn't meant to do this - doh!     

A call to John Allan Aquariums, then a call to The Green Machine, and a replacement head and hose connector was on its way. These arrived this morning and it's up and running (leak-free at the moment!) as I type.  It's also sitting in a bucket until I'm totally sure it's 100% OK.

The new head is a bit different from the old one - I'll post pictures soon (promise!).  And the hose connector seems watertight too, thank goodness.  

So - I've learned a bit more.  I did a second trim of the rotala last week, and the filter-related disruption has resulted in major leaf-loss from the staurogyne - but the glosso is going great guns!     Fish are fine too   . 

Major thanks to TGM for their brilliant after-sales service - Jim, Mark and co couldn't do enough to help sort this - their no quibble attitude, and recognition that this sort of stuff really messes with our peace of mind is just one of the reasons they're such a special outfit. Thanks guys.


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## Tony Swinney (20 Mar 2010)

Hi Paul

Sorry to hear of your eheim woes, but am pleased you seem to have it sorted out.

This is probably a bit late, but I found some plastic boxes at the local market, which I use as 'trays' for the filters - they are just big enough to fit the filter in, whilst still fitting inside my cupboards.  They're about 8 inches deep, so give you a bit of breathing space in case of filter leaks - I just check they're dry every morning when I dose the ferts.

Look forward to more pics.

Tony


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## paul.in.kendal (31 Mar 2010)

OK - first, sincere apologies for promising more pics and not delivering.

Here's the glosso, a few days after planting







Here's the new Eheim 2180 head.  The cream coloured bit in the middle is soft and rubbery - on my original it was hard grey plastic.  Dunno whether that's a crucial difference, but it's working fine, no leaks.






This is how it's installed, for now at least:






And here are some pics from today:






The glosso doing its stuff:





The naughty HC, which decided to flourish in a corner (and the hydrocotyle with a fair bit of GSA  ):





The rotala looking good about ten days after its second trim:





I'm off on hols for ten days on Friday, so I'll switch off the halide (taking lighting down to 48w from 198w), reduce the photoperiod from 6hrs to 4, reduce co2 input and fit an autofeeder for the fishies.  No ferts, but I've got good substrate.  I expect I'll come back to a right bloody mess!


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## Nelson (31 Mar 2010)

thats looking great paul.getting there now  .


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## George Farmer (31 Mar 2010)

Looking good mate! 

Have a nice holiday and try not to worry about the tank.  You may well be surprised when you return.  I'd personally not bother feeding the fish for 10 days.  They'll feed on tiny scraps, maybe even algae (most fish rely on algae as a major part of their diet in the wild).


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## Steve Smith (31 Mar 2010)

Tank is looking great   Have a good holiday Paul!


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## frothhelmet (31 Mar 2010)

Totally stunning tank. I love the anubias bonsai on the seiryu as well.


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## LondonDragon (31 Mar 2010)

Looking great Paul, specially that P. Helferi, lets hope its all good when you come back from holidays! If you lived nearby I would have looked after it hehe


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## andyh (31 Mar 2010)

Paul






How good is that looking now!   Considering this is your first attempt (correct me if i am wrong!) it really does look great!

Everything looks very healthy. That Glosso has taken really well, cant believe how much coverage you have already got!   

It will be fine for 10 days, Just give it some extra attention when you get back and it will be cool!

Andy


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## Mark Evans (1 Apr 2010)

Sweet as a nut!

 Looks to me like your over some of your past woes. What a great feeling eh?



			
				andyh said:
			
		

> Considering this is your first attempt (correct me if i am wrong!) it really does look great!



so true, Much ground covered i think.


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## paul.in.kendal (1 Apr 2010)

Thanks so much for all the kind comments, chaps!  This is part of what makes UKAPS great - you're all sooo supportive!  

Thanks Nelson.  But where's the successor to jungle plain?  In it's last rendition that was looking lush, with some lovely fishies!!  I hope your doing something good with it.

Thanks for the advice on fishfeeding, George - I'll definitely leave them to forage, that's much easier - and reassuring to know that I can do that without being cruel to the darlings!  :silent:   

Glad you like the Anubias, Frothhelmet - it's future is uncertain, unless it gets its act together and the production of new healthy leaves outstrips the algaefication of older ones!

Ah, Paulo - what I would give for someone living nearby I could trust to keep an eye on it!My mates up here are all dinghy sailors - I'd trust them with my life in a boat, and with my money at the bar, but I wouldn't let them within ten feet of this baby without th4e closest supervision!   

You're right, Andy, this is my very first aquarium - to me its condition is a tribute to a certain geeky streak in me (  ), and a massive dollop of support and sound advice from people like your goodself   .

Saintly, as always it's extra special to get kind words from someone of your calibre (not that I don't feel the same about George, Paulo, Andy et al!) - much ground covered indeed!  What I'm particularly chuffed about is the water clarity - for quite a few weeks at the beginning it was clear, but not REALLY clear.  Now even a week after a water change the water is crystal clear, with barely a hint of build-up on the glass at the waterline.  This is a tribute to our fantastic tap water up here, but also to UKAPS advice.  I reckon Ed Seeley has a lot to answer for - his hi-tech for beginners tutorial was a brilliant starting point for me.

Steve, I certainly will have a good holiday. I'm off to Les Arcs skiing - I fell hook, line and sinker (not a good expression for a fishlovers forum I guess!) for an April Fool text this morning from a pal telling me there's been 2 metres of snowfall at the resort last night!    Still, I believe the snow is still pretty good, and it's always better than work!!

Right, off to pack my bags - don't eat too much chocolate, chaps!


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## Nelson (1 Apr 2010)

paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> Thanks Nelson.  But where's the successor to jungle plain?  In it's last rendition that was looking lush, with some lovely fishies!!  I hope your doing something good with it.


can't show it until after IAPLC   .
enjoy the 2 metres of snow   .


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## paul.in.kendal (17 Apr 2010)

Well I've been back from skiing a week now, so I'm a bit overdue reporting on my first-ever time away from my scape!

As I guessed, UKAPS advice was spot-on as always. I turned lights and CO2 down, left the fish unfed, and came back to this:






Although this shows it after a post holiday water-change, it is exactly how I returned to it - probably in even BETTER health than when I left it ten days previously! There was less algae than when I went, plants were looking better, and the anubias especially seemed to have benefitted from the less intense regime.

As a result, I've tweaked back the lighting an CO2 from what I was doing before the break, and I'm watching to see how it responds.  I do think I've probably been loving my fish too much, with excessive feeding - but it' so hard not to give them a little pinch or two, once too often!

(Sorry about the less-than brilliant picture - I'm seriously thinking about a Canon 450D with an EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM Lens - and I'm hoping I can find someone to borrow some studio lights off, too.)

Thanks for the advice, chaps - George especially


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## Graeme Edwards (17 Apr 2010)

looks brilliant Paul. Looks like you have cracked it. Well done


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## Mark Evans (17 Apr 2010)

looking great paul!


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## Nelson (17 Apr 2010)

thats looking fantastic Paul.you need to go on holiday more often   .


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## Maurits (18 Apr 2010)

nelson said:
			
		

> thats looking fantastic Paul.you need to go on holiday more often   .



it's THE solution for tanks which are not doing well.

but this one Paul, even for your Holiday really nice. I am following you since post one and it's lovely to see the improvements


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## rawr (18 Apr 2010)

Wow, this has really matured into something nice. I've got to admit, I didn't really like the hardscape at the beginning but now love the look of this aquascape. It just shows you how letting a tank mature can change everything.


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## paul.in.kendal (18 Apr 2010)

You're all very kind indeed! And thanks Nelson for the suggestion of more hols - perhaps you could have a word with my boss?

I'm really very pleased with this, and it does feel like I'm really starting to get the hang of how adjusting inputs affects the tank.  That's not to say it won't go pear-shaped again, of course, but I do feel a bit more in control (but only a bit...)

The only area that really doesn't seem right is left-front.  It comprises a bit of HC, hydrocotyle verticillata and a small bit of anubias nana 'Bonsai'.  I now feel that the hydrocotyle works best as an accent plant twining it's way through other plants, which it's doing elsewhere in my scape.  This hides the untidy horizontal runners and seems to help it root properly.  The HC is fun (after all my trials with it) but a bit of an irrelevance.  The anubias is just dwarfed by the hydrocotyle, but I really like the dark green contrast of it.  

So I'm thinking of putting  something darkish green in that corner, no more than 12 cms tall, to take the eye up, around and back into the scape.  Any suggestions?  I guess a slightly larger anubias might do the trick - perhaps nana?  Anything else?


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## John Starkey (18 Apr 2010)

Super looking scape Paul,and god knows you have worked hard for it well done.


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## paul.in.kendal (30 Apr 2010)

Yesterday added ten assassin snails (thanks Jur4ik   ) to deal with my population of physis.  I've got one or two tiny ramshorns too, which I rather like, but I guess they're going to be slurped up too.  My missus calls the assassins 'terminator snails', which seems a better name to me.

All else going fine - glosso had a nervous and inadequate trim last week - soon to get a bolder crop.  Rotala also in need of trim number three.

Pictures after a weekend away - enjoy the bank holiday, people.


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## andyh (21 May 2010)

how goes it paul? where are your pics?


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## verchap (21 May 2010)

Wow! this journal is amazing - well done on such a wicked tank


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## paul.in.kendal (21 May 2010)

Hi Verchap - you're very kind!

Hi Andy, thanks for the nudge.

I've been waiting for my new camera and lens - it turned up yesterday and I'm stunned by the capability of it.  Quality glass is definitely worth the investment - I can't quite believe how well it takes low light shots without flash.  

The tank is Ok'ish, but I'm really undecided as to whether I should include it in the IAPLC.  I've suffered two issues with it.  First one is minor.  Despite having two 3kg canisters, and borrowing a 2kg FE, I managed to run out of CO2 for a couple of days.  I reduced the lighting straight away and restarted dosing liquid carbon and I don't think it's done too much damage.  What it HAS done is taught that I need to be better prepared, and that the canister pressure gauge can sit at the 'full' pressure for a long time, but once it starts to reduce it will very soon - and very suddenly - empty completely.

The other issue is with my glosso carpet.  I let it run away with me slightly, and then when I trimmed it I think I was a bit too tentative (ironic really, as in my terrestrial garden I take great delight in scaring others by my vigorous and highly effective pruning).

As a result it's looking decidedly tatty.  I've resolved to take a competition picture as it currently is (i.e. good clean-up and remove equipment), then give it a serious scalping and see whether it grows back in time for a better shot at IAPLC.

Any advice on just how brutal I can be with glosso?  Can I remove all the leaves without killing it? Do you think I have time to trim it like this and get regrowth in time for IAPLC?  And should I post a separate thread on the topic under 'Plants'?

I will load up some pics soon - promise!


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## paul.in.kendal (22 May 2010)

I've got a bit of a problem.  I had a closer look at the glosso today, and realised it was about to lift off completely.  So I decided to hack it right back - if you're of a nervous disposition look away now...



















Sorry about that.  I've kept a fair bit of the healthy shoots and roots I trimmed, and I'm guessing that the almighty mess pictured above is unlikely ever to look really good again.  So I'm tempted to pull it all out and replant afresh.  If I do that I really don't see how this'll be in shape for IAPLC. Any thoughts?


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## Nelson (22 May 2010)

i wouldn't of thought it would grow back in time the for IAPLC.
so either use an old photo or rip it out and have an open forground there for your IAPLC photo.
then replant it and start again.
can't think of anything else   .
i'm sure others can.


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## paul.in.kendal (22 May 2010)

All old photos are with a 3-meg camera - images need to be 4-meg minimum for IAPLC.  But I hadn't thought of having an open foreground - good idea, Nelson!


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## tyrophagus (22 May 2010)

If you interpolate your images you can easily increase them to 4mb. I can do it for you if you like just pm me.


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## paul.in.kendal (22 May 2010)

Aah - thanks Tyro!  But there's another problem - none of the old images show the tank with the equipment removed.  I know that doesn't bar me from entering them, but I'm not sure I can face entering images with such an obvious shortcoming - it may be a step too far.  I'll try out the open foreground, and PM you if I decide to take you up on the kind offer.  Liked your post about eliminating distortion, BTW.


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## paul.in.kendal (28 Jun 2010)

My glosso is recovering nicely after I pulled it all out and replanted individual pair of leaves properly.  But I realised I had neglected to prune the rest of the tank in good time, and it was all very overgrown.   So I gave it a very serious going over, and discovered a fair bit of decay in the undergrowth.  I pulled out quite a bit of the vallis (disturbing the substrate), and trimmed the rotala and pogostemon hard.

Unfortunately the resulting ammonia spike and sudden reduction in plant mass has clearly upset the tank's balance, and I'm now awash with BBA and other algae, and plants have gone into decline - the collapse of the frogbit is fascinatingly horrible.

So - I've learned yet more from my 'learning' tank, and I'm now thinking about how to re-scape.  If you can advise, perhaps you'll look at my post on 'How to re-scape' in the  General Discussion thread.

I'll post some pictures of the mess in a while.


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## Tony Swinney (28 Jun 2010)

Hi paul

Sorry to hear of your problems - I know the feeling as I had much the same happen for much the same reason with "Peacocks Crypt".  I do think that you have a very good scape here, and whilst I'm sure you have the urge to create something all new, I found it a very good learning curve to correct the cause of the problems, work against the algae to a week or two and bring the scape back in to line - it probably took me about 20minutes a day, but after 2 weeks the algae was all gone, and the plants were flourishing again.  It was very rewarding, and in reality took less time than a rescape would have done.

This was about as bad as mine got...









But within a couple of weeks those branches looked like this...





Good luck with it whichever way you decide to go.

Tony


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## paul.in.kendal (28 Jun 2010)

Thanks for your concern, Tony - good to hear from someone who's 'been there, done that'! 

I have thought about trying to resurrect this - but have a look at these pictures to see the extent of my problems:


























As you can see, I've got a major problem, and I'm worried the only way to try and save it would be to remove pretty much all plat-matter above the substrate - would it recover?  I find it hard to believe it would.

One option I've considered is to remove all the plants, stop light, ferts and CO2, do lots of water changes until things are stabilised, then replant keeping the existing hardscape.  This offers the advantage of not needing to move the livestock, lets me retain the good hardscape structure, yet try out a completely new planting plan.  I reckon I could transform the look with a fundamentally different set of plants - what do you think?


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## LondonDragon (28 Jun 2010)

You could perform a 3-4 day black out, and then remove the most affected plants after that, you just have to ensure you have enough CO2, flow, ferts pumping in there afterwards, lots of water changes might actually make the problem worse.


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## arty (29 Jun 2010)

Looks very bad  How You got so many algeas in one time, first time i see so big algea bouquet , sorry.
I personaly think there not enough co2 and something excess.
I think there no other option, only take off all and gluta or peroxide or bleach or some other way get off algea from plants.

P.S. My tank 2-3 months from setup all with diatoma-brown algea   

Good Luck And Best Regards


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## Graeme Edwards (29 Jun 2010)

Wow, what happened here. The algae monster has released his evil seeds....

Paul, my advice to you is remove as much of the algae as you can. Leave any plants that look healthy or recoverable underneath.
Do a large water change and then black it out providing an air stone at the same time. 
Black out for a week, yes 6-7 days! 
Once the week is up, do an 80% water change and remove all the dead and shlup plants. Do all the messy work before you change the water. 
Get your light on, go easy at 1st, reduce the lighting period or intensity, just for the first week. 
Only dose trace at half dose for the first 3-4 days, then go to full dose near the end of the week. Stay in trace for around 2 weeks and avoid adding any N and P unless its in your tap water. 

Ive not had time to read where things went wrong, but i suggest that while you are doing the black out. Look at your rhythms, check your dosing times, light times, flow rates and filter pipes. Look at your diffusers, check your reg and figure out of the Co2 had been off for any period of time, even a day. Usually, when it gets this bad, there has been a serious break down in the balance, just need to figure out which link was broken.

Good luck - may the force be with you!


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## Graeme Edwards (29 Jun 2010)

*Good EI discussion (split from Paul's 200L journal)*



			
				paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> Unfortunately the resulting ammonia spike and sudden reduction in plant mass has clearly upset the tank's balance, and I'm now awash with BBA and other algae, and plants have gone into decline - the collapse of the frogbit is fascinatingly horrible.
> 
> So - I've learned yet more from my 'learning' tank, and I'm now thinking about how to re-scape.  If you can advise, perhaps you'll look at my post on 'How to re-scape' in the  General Discussion thread.
> 
> I'll post some pictures of the mess in a while.



Yep, this, along perhaps with the Co2 issue you had will have done it. 
In hindsight, what you would of been better doing, is doing a few extra water changes and cutting your ferts down until things grew in again. 
This is where in my opinion ( controversial im sure ) EI does fall down. ( I dont know if your dosing EI or not,but im guessing you ).
In future, if things start looking grey and iffy, check everything and do more water changes until you know what is going on.

Cheers


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## ceg4048 (1 Jul 2010)

I'm not going here at all....I simply refuse.

Cheers,


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## Graeme Edwards (1 Jul 2010)

Go on clive, better out than in.


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## paul.in.kendal (1 Jul 2010)

Clive! Please, please jump in! You can't offend me (I'm the newbie with bugger-all experience), and if it's Graeme you'll be taking issue with, I''m sure he can cope with a (cough) 'difference of opinion'.   

Cheers for the sound advice Graeme. I'll be following it - unless anyone else cares to suggest an alternative course of action!


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## ceg4048 (1 Jul 2010)

paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> Clive! Please, please jump in! You can't offend me (I'm the newbie with bugger-all experience), and if it's Graeme you'll be taking issue with, I''m sure he can cope with a (cough) 'difference of opinion'.
> 
> Cheers for the sound advice Graeme. I'll be following it - unless anyone else cares to suggest an alternative course of action!


Hey Paul,
  I reckon there is one fundamental error you made after you returned from vacation; you turned the lights back up. You should have just turned the CO2 and nutrients up, fattened the plants up and then slowly introduced more light.

The problem is that the plants adjusted to the low light/low CO2 by changing their Rubisco levels. They had also started using their energy reserves as well as pulling nutrients from the sediment. By the time you got back they would have been low on energy reserves. Turning the lights up drains them further of those reserves because they are unable to use the extra CO2 for at least a few weeks. It takes that amount of time to generate another Rubisco change.

So energy production demand increased (due to higher light) but energy production did not (because Carbon fixation apparatus was stuck in low gear.) Since they were already low on reserves, you basically emptied the tank by turning the lights up.

This is a classic failure that happens to many nutrient haters at tank startup. They put in new plants that have been grown emmersed. Emmersed plants have a pretty good energy reserve built up. The tank is flooded, the plants are pummeled with light and the hobbyist decides that no nutrients will be added. This is fine if a nutritious substrate is used, but often it isn't. The plants grow fine for weeks but then they start to fail. The nutrient hater then immediately blames NO3 for his/her problem. The real problem is that the nutrient and energy reserves are spent. With poor nutrient uptake and under high light, the plants economy crumbles.

Now, apart from the obvious CO2 related algae, what algal forms do you see in those images? Is there BGA? Well, do you really think that a post blackout NO3 restriction will solve that problem? You know what causes BGA, so why on Earth should you only dose traces, which the plant needs very little of and not dose NO3, which the plant needs a lot of? Do you also see the GSA? What causes GSA? Do you really think that restricting PO4 will solve that problem?

I agree with Graeme that you ought to start with a blackout and massive water change, but our opinions diverge drastically for the post blackout procedures. This is a nutrition failure due to poor uptake as a result of the inability to adapt quickly enough to an acute spectral change. That was your fault, not EI's fault. 

Dosing programs do not fall down, whether  ADA, PMDD+PO4, TPN, EI, PPS, whatever. They are all valid. It is the poor implementation of the dosing principles that causes _the hobbyist_ to fall down.

As far as I can tell from looking at the progress within the 17 pages, you started the tank using the ADA procedure and then switched to EI, at which point you saw the most improvement in your tank until your departure. Is that right? I can't quite tell, but I believe that there was a change to the spectral energy input (from fluorescent lighting to MH?) which cause problems, undoubtedly because you were unable to compensate the CO2 delivery for the energy increase.

At the end of the day, this is the same old story. Too much light, poorly compensated for by adequate delivery of nutrients CO2. I see this every day. Yours is simply a different flavor, but the physiology of the failure is the same. Oh, but now, EI must be evicted, because it surely must have been the cause of the falling down, even though it saved you 10 pages ago. Tsk. tsk, tsk, what an ungrateful so and so....  

My suggestions are that you dose NPK but delete CO2 while you are doing the blackout. Passive uptake of nutrients will occur in the plants during the darkness but the algae will fail due to the darkness because light causes algae. 

Post blackout, continue EI dosing, as high a CO2 as the fish can handle + Excel. Keep the lighting levels low. It will take a few weeks for the Rubisco synthesis to build enough of the protein to be useful at CO2 uptake (then you'll see real improvement.) During this time 2X to 3X massive water changes per week will help. So will a lot of elbow grease - physical removal is necessary. high nutrient and high CO2 levels will encourage new growth far more than nutrient restriction. 

I've never seen the logic is withholding nutrients. I don't care if the algae grow faster in the beginning due to high nutrient levels. This will happen. But your focus needs to be on getting plants healthy, not killing algae. This is fundamental principle that all EI haters have difficulty coming to grips with. EI is concerned with maximizing plant health. EI is never about killing algae. When I look at those photos I see unhealthy plants. 

When you maximize your plants' health the algae will automatically go away, so there is no point trying to starve algae out of existence because you couldn't do it even if you tried. And if you try to do it you will hurt the plants more than you will hurt the algae because plants need 1000X more nutrients than algae do. Unhealthy plants have ruptured cell membranes which eject what nutrients they have into the water column, so it doesn't matter to the algae if you restrict nutrient dosing, they are already sitting at the banquet table munching on the plant. That's why they attach themselves to the plant. The longer you restrict nutrients, the longer the plants suffer, and the longer the algae can feed off of damaged plant structure.

In my view, it's much better to take the early hit of faster algal growth in high nutrient water. That's what the high water changes and scrubbing helps to mitigate. It's more annoying, sure, but ultimately, more successful, because we are all about plants, and plants need food.

Cheers,


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## Anonymous (2 Jul 2010)

I have to agree with Ceg that all of the problems we have with our tanks are due to our laziness . Good advice, you can post it and stick it as an article .


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## Graeme Edwards (2 Jul 2010)

Thats the most rounded and honest post you have written about EI that I have seen, Clive.
Nice one.

Normally people who love EI dont talk about the algae, or the pitfalls, because there are, you mention them your self. ( scrubbing, 3x water changes etc...... thats the first time ive heard some one talking about EI in that way...... )

My interpretation of EI from what I read, not what I have done, ill be honest, is loads of light, loads of ferts and a big water change. Well I know, and I know you know, its not as basic as that. And that is why I have had to deal with many people trying to get EI right. Because EI to the nubie or the non ppm/science waffle waffle,  minded people is not black and white like some science, techie peeps see it. 

That post, to me, finally admits that EI is still a case of balance and its not about throwing everything you have at the plants all the time from the day dot. Come on, its not that simple.....

Nice post Clive.


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## ceg4048 (2 Jul 2010)

Graeme Edwards said:
			
		

> Thats the most rounded and honest post you have written about EI that I have seen, Clive.
> Nice one.
> 
> Normally people who love EI dont talk about the algae, or the pitfalls, because there are, you mention them your self. ( scrubbing, 3x water changes etc...... thats the first time ive heard some one talking about EI in that way...... )
> ...


Thanks mate. It's no secret that a high tech planted tank takes a lot of work. That's why some people decide to try low tech, to fit in with their busy lifestyle. Barr had never implied that his dosing technique made growing plants easy all by itself. What he said was that the technique made the dosing regime easier and cheaper. It's easy because you just add a couple of powders with no need for testing. At the time, he developed these dosing principles people were manically trying to control nutrients with testing, restrictions and all sorts of harebrained schemes. Since most people now are new to this hobby they do not have the sense of history and they therefore cannot have the proper perspective or the proper context. Dosing regimes in the 1990's was a very complicated affair. All one has to do is to read the posts on The Krib to get an idea of where we were in those days.

You still need to pay attention to the other things associated with plant keeping. You can still get algae if you don't pay attention to the other aspects of plant husbandry. This was never in question, and algae is only one type of failure mode - other things can go wrong that have nothing to do with either nutrients or dosing regime. But people become fixated on nutrients. 

The Matrix tells our brains that nutrients cause algae, so it seems everyone is born with an ingrained fear of nutrients. That's why many of the posts you read seem to ignore all the other aspects of plant husbandry, because things have descended into a battle between nutrient haters versus nutrient lovers.

Lost in the heat of battle are the fundamental truths, which blinds us from being able to isolate faults that develop in our tank systems. Learning how to grow plants means understanding how to differentiate between dosing issues, flow issues, lighting issues, CO2 issues, maintenance issues and so forth. Inattention to these other areas can cause plant health failure regardless of the dosing program.

Cheers,


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## Graeme Edwards (2 Jul 2010)

Dam strait brother, I'm with ya! 

Another great post. There needs to be more layman style dosing article.


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## paul.in.kendal (2 Jul 2010)

Clive, I'm once again totally gobsmacked by the amount of time and effort you are prepared to spend helping people like me with the hobby. After reflecting on your post, I was stunned by how accurately you diagnosed the errors I made that led to the current soggy mess I'm in.  I'm certain you're right that what I've got is the  result of poor application of EI, a heavy-handed approach to adjusting light levels and a complete ignorance of the need to beef up plant vigour and SLOWLY increase light levels after the holiday-time reduction.

What I find intriguing is that, once I'd arrived at a stable balance of light/nutrients/plant-mass/flow, it all seemed easy.  Yet that balance was actually on a knife edge, and as soon as I slipped off it I was punished severely.  

I've now got to decide whether to try to resurrect the existing aquascape, which will be fascinating, or create a totally new scape, but using the existing hardscape - which will also be fascinating.  As a terrestrial gardener I always consider plants to be cheap for the amount of joy they bring, so I'm leaning towards a new planting scheme, just to see how different it looks, and whether the same hardscape can support a wildly different planting scheme. Moss and stems only, anyone? 

Don't you just LOVE UKAPS?


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## George Farmer (5 Jul 2010)

Great dialogue here, guys.  

I've split the relevant posts from Paul's journal and pinned them here in the Aquarium Fert Dosing sub-forum for everyone's benefit.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=12067


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## Tony Swinney (10 Nov 2010)

Hi Paul

Hope all is well, any updates on your tank ?  Did you go for a full rescape, or fresh planting ?

Tony


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## paul.in.kendal (28 Nov 2010)

Hi Tony

Real life has intervened rather over the last few months.  I eventually stripped out all the plants, then decided it wasn't worth replanting as we're off to Oz for several weeks in December/Jan (I know many of you would have easily managed a complete rescape in that time, but there you go).  My local fish shop has agreed to take my livestock and donate it to a deserving youngster.  I'll then shut the whole thing down, and start again in mid-Jan.  Seasons greetings to everyone!


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## Garuf (28 Nov 2010)

paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> My local fish shop has agreed to take my livestock and donate it to a deserving youngster.


What an extremely generous and kind offer. Seasons greetings!


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## mrjackdempsey (28 Nov 2010)

Has been a real voyage of learning and discovery


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## Tony Swinney (6 Dec 2010)

paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> Hi Tony
> 
> Real life has intervened rather over the last few months.  I eventually stripped out all the plants, then decided it wasn't worth replanting as we're off to Oz for several weeks in December/Jan (I know many of you would have easily managed a complete rescape in that time, but there you go).  My local fish shop has agreed to take my livestock and donate it to a deserving youngster.  I'll then shut the whole thing down, and start again in mid-Jan.  Seasons greetings to everyone!



Hi Paul
I know what you mean about life getting in the way !  Have a great trip and I look forward to the new journal in the New Year 

Tony


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## JohnC (20 Dec 2010)

seasons greetings to you, just read through the journal and really enjoyed it.

looking forward to your next.


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## paul.in.kendal (24 May 2011)

After a MUCH longer break than expected, I'm now starting to resurrect this tank.  First job - fill it up with water and check all the systems work.  Second job - re-read my own journal and try to work out a schedule to turn a rather smelly dormant tank into something beautiful again!  I'll take photos and start a new journal in a day or two.


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## Stu Worrall (24 May 2011)

welcome back paul, looking forward to the new scape


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## Tony Swinney (24 May 2011)

x2 
Tony


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## LondonDragon (24 May 2011)

X3  welcome back


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## andyh (26 May 2011)

Welcome Back Paul, looking forward to seeing how you develop this tank after what you learnt on the first.


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## George Farmer (26 May 2011)

paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> After a MUCH longer break than expected, I'm now starting to resurrect this tank.  First job - fill it up with water and check all the systems work.  Second job - re-read my own journal and try to work out a schedule to turn a rather smelly dormant tank into something beautiful again!  I'll take photos and start a new journal in a day or two.


Welcome back, Paul.  Lovely to see you on here again.  

All the best with the new set-up.


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## a1Matt (26 May 2011)

x6 he he.


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